{"total":{"value":145,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2024-04-17"],"total_page":2,"ivods":[{"id":"15822","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15822","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ead40e7c6eb22b5d9c41854146fdf8e2ad3be8d109af184be46d1480dc243fce845ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-17T14:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：討論立法院內政委員會「數位身分證換發政策及預算執行調閱小組運作要點」草案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-17","start_time":"2024-04-17T13:30:02+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-12"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-04-17T14:49:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":4738,"委員發言時間":"13:30:02 - 14:49:00","影片長度":"01:18:58","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1951.8103437500001,"end":1954.2909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1955.9109687500002,"end":1959.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":1959.8597187500002,"end":1964.1459687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1965.4622187500001,"end":1974.9459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1975.2328437500003,"end":1981.2403437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1981.3584687500002,"end":2004.0722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2004.24096875,"end":2010.5015937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2010.6703437500003,"end":2016.3234687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2016.7959687500002,"end":2018.4328437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2018.6184687500001,"end":2021.9259687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2022.0272187500002,"end":2028.8278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2029.0303437500002,"end":2033.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2033.3334687500003,"end":2046.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2046.6815937500003,"end":2056.4522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2056.84034375,"end":2083.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2083.70534375,"end":2084.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2084.43096875,"end":2094.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2095.04534375,"end":2099.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2100.15846875,"end":2100.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2100.17534375,"end":2101.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2101.74471875,"end":2101.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2101.84596875,"end":2101.8965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2101.8965937500006,"end":2102.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2102.03159375,"end":2102.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2103.66846875,"end":2107.2965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2108.3428437500006,"end":2110.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2111.54909375,"end":2112.0215937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2112.5447187500004,"end":2116.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2119.04159375,"end":2126.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2127.22596875,"end":2128.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2128.0359687500004,"end":2142.3965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2142.6159687500003,"end":2147.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2147.9990937500006,"end":2155.5928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2155.6940937500003,"end":2159.3222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2159.6259687500005,"end":2167.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2168.1815937500005,"end":2168.7890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2170.07159375,"end":2179.9265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2180.8209687500002,"end":2182.9303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2183.40284375,"end":2183.5547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2183.5547187500006,"end":2183.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2183.58846875,"end":2184.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2184.11159375,"end":2185.6640937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2185.91721875,"end":2194.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2195.02971875,"end":2199.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2200.27784375,"end":2201.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2202.01596875,"end":2207.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2207.68596875,"end":2215.9209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2216.73096875,"end":2229.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2229.57284375,"end":2230.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2230.58534375,"end":2233.6397187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2234.1628437500003,"end":2238.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2238.5672187500004,"end":2240.7947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2240.9297187500006,"end":2253.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2253.73784375,"end":2254.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2255.0878437500005,"end":2259.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2260.28534375,"end":2262.3272187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2262.4959687500004,"end":2283.1003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2283.79221875,"end":2284.4334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2284.9059687500003,"end":2287.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2288.4665937500004,"end":2293.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2293.5965937500005,"end":2307.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2308.0078437500006,"end":2323.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2323.6678437500004,"end":2350.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2350.68471875,"end":2368.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2369.44971875,"end":2379.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2380.0303437500006,"end":2395.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2395.58909375,"end":2405.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2405.47784375,"end":2410.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2410.9453437500006,"end":2413.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2413.4597187500003,"end":2421.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2421.7790937500004,"end":2424.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2424.4959687500004,"end":2425.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2426.0147187500006,"end":2431.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2431.6003437500003,"end":2433.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2433.9122187500006,"end":2435.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2435.78534375,"end":2436.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2436.7303437500004,"end":2455.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2456.3222187500005,"end":2461.1484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2461.40159375,"end":2468.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2469.2147187500004,"end":2487.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2487.87846875,"end":2506.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2506.9303437500002,"end":2511.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2511.5878437500005,"end":2520.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2520.46409375,"end":2524.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2524.75034375,"end":2528.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2530.47096875,"end":2530.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2530.5047187500004,"end":2533.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2533.96409375,"end":2537.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2537.47409375,"end":2541.8278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2544.0047187500004,"end":2550.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2551.91909375,"end":2552.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2553.3534687500005,"end":2556.0534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2556.6778437500006,"end":2557.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2557.36971875,"end":2568.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2573.09721875,"end":2573.7890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2575.12221875,"end":2583.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2583.32346875,"end":2584.6228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2586.17534375,"end":2591.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2592.1490937500002,"end":2593.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2592.6384687500004,"end":2593.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2595.33846875,"end":2596.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2595.3553437500004,"end":2595.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2596.48596875,"end":2599.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2599.2028437500003,"end":2602.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2603.57346875,"end":2608.1972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2609.6484687500006,"end":2616.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2616.6347187500005,"end":2620.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2618.87909375,"end":2620.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2620.5497187500005,"end":2621.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2623.0303437500006,"end":2623.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2623.41846875,"end":2623.4353437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2624.2959687500006,"end":2631.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2632.3622187500005,"end":2640.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2641.3565937500007,"end":2644.2928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2653.01721875,"end":2653.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2654.45159375,"end":2655.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2655.6328437500006,"end":2656.5778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2656.93221875,"end":2659.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2660.72909375,"end":2662.8722187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2663.2265937500006,"end":2663.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2664.52596875,"end":2666.3484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2666.9559687500005,"end":2668.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2668.8122187500003,"end":2669.3690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2669.57159375,"end":2672.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2672.23784375,"end":2674.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2675.3934687500005,"end":2676.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2680.8272187500006,"end":2688.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2689.0284687500007,"end":2699.3053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2698.9509687500004,"end":2703.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2703.8953437500004,"end":2703.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2704.40159375,"end":2709.6159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2710.62846875,"end":2711.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2711.9784687500005,"end":2712.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2713.6490937500002,"end":2714.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2714.72909375,"end":2718.0703437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2718.44159375,"end":2718.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2719.30221875,"end":2720.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2721.5465937500003,"end":2723.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2723.3690937500005,"end":2730.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2731.46909375,"end":2745.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2745.52596875,"end":2748.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2749.1709687500006,"end":2752.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2755.04346875,"end":2758.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2759.66721875,"end":2764.0547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2764.3584687500006,"end":2768.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":2768.7628437500007,"end":2773.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2775.9684687500003,"end":2777.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2777.6728437500005,"end":2780.6765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2781.5709687500002,"end":2781.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2781.62159375,"end":2781.9422187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2781.9422187500004,"end":2783.2078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2783.2078437500004,"end":2788.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2783.2247187500006,"end":2784.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2785.1484687500006,"end":2785.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2789.8565937500007,"end":2791.6959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2791.9997187500003,"end":2793.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2792.05034375,"end":2794.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2794.02471875,"end":2794.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2794.26096875,"end":2794.3115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2794.3115937500006,"end":2794.5309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2794.9697187500005,"end":2795.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2795.00346875,"end":2795.0372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2795.0372187500006,"end":2795.5603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2795.5603437500004,"end":2795.5772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2795.5772187500006,"end":2795.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2795.59409375,"end":2816.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2795.6953437500006,"end":2797.9059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2798.7665937500005,"end":2799.2559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2809.70159375,"end":2809.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2812.8572187500004,"end":2813.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2814.52784375,"end":2818.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2816.38409375,"end":2816.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2819.23596875,"end":2819.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2819.3203437500006,"end":2819.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2819.4384687500005,"end":2820.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":2819.77596875,"end":2826.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2827.1503437500005,"end":2828.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2828.73659375,"end":2833.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2836.81971875,"end":2837.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2838.08534375,"end":2838.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2839.4353437500004,"end":2853.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2846.0165937500005,"end":2847.0459687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2847.11346875,"end":2847.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2847.41721875,"end":2847.4678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2853.57659375,"end":2854.4034687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2854.6397187500006,"end":2855.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2856.90096875,"end":2858.1834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2858.87534375,"end":2869.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2870.51909375,"end":2873.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2875.2440937500005,"end":2878.1465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2880.40784375,"end":2891.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2892.43971875,"end":2898.2784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2898.5653437500005,"end":2899.5947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2899.72971875,"end":2902.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2902.75034375,"end":2903.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2903.89784375,"end":2905.0115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2906.37846875,"end":2906.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2906.73284375,"end":2906.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2906.96909375,"end":2907.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2907.03659375,"end":2907.1209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2907.64409375,"end":2908.3865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2908.48784375,"end":2909.2472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2910.8503437500003,"end":2911.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2911.18784375,"end":2911.4578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2913.01034375,"end":2914.0397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2914.07346875,"end":2915.3053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2914.2253437500003,"end":2924.5528437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2922.3253437500007,"end":2923.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2924.31659375,"end":2928.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2925.83534375,"end":2928.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2934.4247187500005,"end":2939.3184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2939.6222187500007,"end":2953.6453437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2953.79721875,"end":2961.2390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2961.57659375,"end":2968.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2970.2334687500006,"end":2970.5709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2972.5284687500007,"end":2978.1815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2987.49659375,"end":2989.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2990.6690937500007,"end":3011.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3015.27284375,"end":3015.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3016.79159375,"end":3022.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3022.44471875,"end":3028.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3022.49534375,"end":3024.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3025.22909375,"end":3025.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3028.0303437500006,"end":3028.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3029.02596875,"end":3029.7009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3029.7178437500006,"end":3032.8903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3035.35409375,"end":3036.5690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3039.92721875,"end":3043.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3043.9772187500002,"end":3044.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3044.33159375,"end":3047.5378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3047.57159375,"end":3047.6222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3047.63909375,"end":3048.4997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3048.4997187500003,"end":3052.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3054.15284375,"end":3055.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3078.7734687500006,"end":3080.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3083.0428437500004,"end":3083.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3083.97096875,"end":3084.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3084.17346875,"end":3084.3084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3084.3084687500004,"end":3084.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3084.3253437500007,"end":3085.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3085.4053437500006,"end":3085.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3085.42221875,"end":3102.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3103.19159375,"end":3107.4440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3107.8153437500005,"end":3110.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3112.23659375,"end":3114.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3115.18971875,"end":3115.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3115.84784375,"end":3131.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3117.73784375,"end":3118.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3128.57159375,"end":3129.0778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3131.5584687500004,"end":3144.1640937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3144.48471875,"end":3145.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3146.0372187500006,"end":3150.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3151.04909375,"end":3151.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3151.4034687500007,"end":3153.1247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3154.23846875,"end":3156.1959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3155.52096875,"end":3158.0859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3162.67596875,"end":3179.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3178.72409375,"end":3179.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3180.05721875,"end":3184.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3184.9678437500006,"end":3185.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3185.1534687500007,"end":3185.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3186.38534375,"end":3194.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3189.0515937500004,"end":3189.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3189.5409687500005,"end":3189.5915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3195.8522187500002,"end":3195.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3195.9197187500004,"end":3196.7634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3196.93221875,"end":3197.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3197.33721875,"end":3211.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3215.59596875,"end":3218.5997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3221.0128437500007,"end":3223.8478437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3224.45534375,"end":3224.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3224.47221875,"end":3224.4890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3224.4890937500004,"end":3228.5222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3224.5059687500006,"end":3224.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3227.6953437500006,"end":3228.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3228.5222187500003,"end":3229.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3229.58534375,"end":3232.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3229.77096875,"end":3234.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3234.1922187500004,"end":3237.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3237.6178437500002,"end":3240.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3240.4022187500004,"end":3240.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3242.2753437500005,"end":3246.0047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3248.14784375,"end":3249.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3255.92721875,"end":3260.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3260.33159375,"end":3262.4578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3261.88409375,"end":3263.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3264.0440937500007,"end":3266.3053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3266.4572187500007,"end":3271.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3271.8065937500005,"end":3277.1222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3280.2272187500002,"end":3282.1003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3288.2597187500005,"end":3294.1659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3294.18284375,"end":3308.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3314.9053437500006,"end":3316.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3315.9853437500005,"end":3321.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3322.3134687500005,"end":3328.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3329.8565937500007,"end":3331.2403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3331.9659687500007,"end":3335.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3335.61096875,"end":3337.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3337.9903437500006,"end":3342.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3339.99846875,"end":3340.9772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3340.9772187500002,"end":3341.9728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3341.9728437500007,"end":3342.0740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3342.71534375,"end":3344.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3345.29721875,"end":3345.8203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3346.4109687500004,"end":3351.2878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3351.3047187500006,"end":3351.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3351.5240937500002,"end":3353.5997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3354.1903437500005,"end":3357.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3357.4303437500002,"end":3358.9659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3363.97784375,"end":3371.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3371.38596875,"end":3371.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3371.4197187500004,"end":3371.5040937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3377.78159375,"end":3378.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3380.97096875,"end":3381.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3381.5447187500004,"end":3381.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3383.7384687500007,"end":3384.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3385.1728437500005,"end":3391.1972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3391.41659375,"end":3396.8503437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3397.13721875,"end":3418.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3420.10409375,"end":3420.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3420.9647187500004,"end":3421.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3421.7578437500006,"end":3422.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3422.68596875,"end":3423.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3424.96409375,"end":3425.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3427.1240937500006,"end":3429.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3431.29221875,"end":3433.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3434.5153437500003,"end":3439.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3440.4384687500005,"end":3445.7878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3448.06596875,"end":3448.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3449.9728437500007,"end":3450.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3451.1034687500005,"end":3458.9840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3451.7784687500007,"end":3453.2634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3453.2634687500004,"end":3453.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3453.41534375,"end":3453.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3458.3428437500006,"end":3458.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3458.42721875,"end":3458.5115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3458.5115937500004,"end":3458.6972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3458.6972187500005,"end":3458.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3458.73096875,"end":3458.7478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3458.7478437500004,"end":3458.9334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3458.9334687500004,"end":3458.9503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3458.9840937500003,"end":3459.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3459.1865937500006,"end":3463.2703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3463.2703437500004,"end":3464.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3464.75534375,"end":3472.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3474.6103437500005,"end":3478.4747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3475.6397187500006,"end":3483.5372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3484.6847187500007,"end":3487.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3487.7559687500006,"end":3489.2578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3489.88221875,"end":3494.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3495.1640937500006,"end":3496.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3496.8347187500003,"end":3498.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3498.7247187500006,"end":3499.0622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3500.56409375,"end":3501.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3502.1334687500002,"end":3509.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3509.7947187500004,"end":3512.0897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3513.01784375,"end":3515.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3515.75159375,"end":3520.6622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3521.21909375,"end":3529.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3530.85471875,"end":3533.0147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3534.1622187500006,"end":3538.1447187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3539.9334687500004,"end":3542.8359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3543.2578437500006,"end":3543.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3543.7809687500003,"end":3547.5778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3548.03346875,"end":3554.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3554.5978437500007,"end":3557.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3558.17534375,"end":3560.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3560.5547187500006,"end":3565.4990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3566.61284375,"end":3569.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3572.68784375,"end":3574.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3575.82659375,"end":3576.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3576.50159375,"end":3577.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3577.46346875,"end":3579.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3581.80034375,"end":3586.3903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3585.9178437500004,"end":3586.2890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3586.3903437500003,"end":3586.5084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3591.8240937500004,"end":3592.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3592.88721875,"end":3594.5915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3594.7772187500004,"end":3598.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3598.77659375,"end":3603.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3603.9403437500005,"end":3606.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3607.2647187500006,"end":3610.5553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3610.67346875,"end":3614.6222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3615.11159375,"end":3617.6090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3617.9803437500004,"end":3618.5372187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3621.9628437500005,"end":3623.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3623.32971875,"end":3668.1834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3668.7740937500002,"end":3688.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3688.5515937500004,"end":3703.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3703.6378437500007,"end":3720.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3720.88409375,"end":3720.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3722.5547187500006,"end":3725.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3729.9628437500005,"end":3731.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3732.46034375,"end":3733.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3733.8778437500005,"end":3734.3165937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3734.92409375,"end":3764.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3766.7840937500005,"end":3766.8009687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3766.8009687500007,"end":3767.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3767.66159375,"end":3768.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3768.31971875,"end":3769.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3769.04534375,"end":3771.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3769.8722187500007,"end":3771.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3771.93096875,"end":3789.0759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3789.41346875,"end":3799.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3799.4372187500003,"end":3806.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3800.92221875,"end":3800.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3800.93909375,"end":3801.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3801.90096875,"end":3820.4803437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3806.0184687500005,"end":3806.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3821.6447187500007,"end":3824.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3824.8847187500005,"end":3925.4765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3926.82659375,"end":3928.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3928.02471875,"end":3928.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3930.67409375,"end":3930.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3930.69096875,"end":3931.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3931.34909375,"end":3932.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3933.8634687500007,"end":3939.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3939.4997187500003,"end":3941.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3941.64284375,"end":3943.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3944.0390937500006,"end":3946.7390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3948.9665937500004,"end":3953.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3952.3415937500004,"end":3952.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3953.03346875,"end":3956.9822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3953.7253437500003,"end":3954.2147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3954.2147187500004,"end":3956.3240937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3957.1847187500007,"end":3957.2184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3957.2184687500003,"end":3957.3365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3958.2478437500004,"end":3958.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3958.29846875,"end":3960.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3958.51784375,"end":3960.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3965.16659375,"end":3968.9972187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3965.2340937500003,"end":3965.4197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3965.4197187500004,"end":3965.7740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3966.29721875,"end":3966.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3966.97221875,"end":3967.0397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3968.9972187500007,"end":3969.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3969.4697187500005,"end":3969.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3969.50346875,"end":3974.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3969.5203437500004,"end":3970.6847187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3970.8365937500002,"end":3972.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3972.9628437500005,"end":3973.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3973.9247187500005,"end":3973.9415937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3974.02596875,"end":3974.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3974.97096875,"end":3983.5772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3977.82284375,"end":3977.9747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3977.9747187500006,"end":3978.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3978.95346875,"end":3978.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3978.97034375,"end":3981.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3983.5772187500006,"end":3983.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3983.77971875,"end":3983.7965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3983.7965937500003,"end":3984.1678437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3984.1678437500004,"end":3984.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3984.87659375,"end":3985.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3986.8172187500004,"end":3990.5128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3988.11659375,"end":3988.1334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3988.1334687500002,"end":3994.0059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3994.7822187500005,"end":3995.0859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3995.2547187500004,"end":3998.6972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3999.01784375,"end":4007.1347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4003.1522187500004,"end":4004.5359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4004.6203437500008,"end":4012.4503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4007.1347187500005,"end":4014.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4014.7453437500008,"end":4020.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4016.2809687500003,"end":4016.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4016.80409375,"end":4016.8884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4016.8884687500004,"end":4017.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4017.1415937500005,"end":4017.2765937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4017.2765937500008,"end":4017.6140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4019.5378437500003,"end":4019.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4019.57159375,"end":4023.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4022.0184687500005,"end":4022.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4022.05221875,"end":4022.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4022.96346875,"end":4023.1153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4023.0309687500003,"end":4023.2334687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4023.1153437500006,"end":4025.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4026.03471875,"end":4028.2453437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4027.60409375,"end":4030.3884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4028.32971875,"end":4029.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4030.3884687500004,"end":4030.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4030.43909375,"end":4030.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4030.4559687500005,"end":4030.5234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4030.5234687500006,"end":4030.5909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4030.5909687500007,"end":4030.7090937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4030.7090937500006,"end":4030.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4030.72596875,"end":4032.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4030.86096875,"end":4031.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4031.14784375,"end":4031.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4031.26596875,"end":4031.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4031.92409375,"end":4032.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4032.0253437500005,"end":4032.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4032.12659375,"end":4040.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4032.22784375,"end":4032.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4034.0165937500005,"end":4034.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4034.03346875,"end":4036.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4038.1003437500003,"end":4045.9978437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4040.0240937500002,"end":4040.0915937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4040.0915937500004,"end":4040.8847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4042.48784375,"end":4043.3484687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4044.47909375,"end":4045.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4045.67721875,"end":4047.1622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4047.6347187500005,"end":4048.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4047.71909375,"end":4053.3047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4051.4147187500002,"end":4052.5622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4052.61284375,"end":4056.7472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4053.5915937500004,"end":4053.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4053.8278437500003,"end":4053.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4054.0303437500006,"end":4054.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4055.43096875,"end":4055.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4056.17346875,"end":4056.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4056.1903437500005,"end":4056.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4056.2578437500006,"end":4056.4265937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4056.7472187500007,"end":4056.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4058.99159375,"end":4063.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4061.03346875,"end":4061.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4061.9784687500005,"end":4062.8222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4063.3622187500005,"end":4065.7753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4064.3240937500004,"end":4064.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4064.8134687500005,"end":4066.8047187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4065.97784375,"end":4073.6559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4067.5978437500007,"end":4071.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4073.57159375,"end":4081.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4074.5840937500006,"end":4075.0397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4075.0397187500002,"end":4076.0690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4076.6765937500004,"end":4078.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4078.9715937500005,"end":4082.0597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4081.95846875,"end":4081.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4082.0597187500007,"end":4082.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4082.8865937500004,"end":4089.1640937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4084.23659375,"end":4084.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4084.25346875,"end":4085.4347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4085.4347187500007,"end":4085.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4085.70471875,"end":4101.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4093.77096875,"end":4094.5134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4094.5134687500004,"end":4098.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4099.120343750001,"end":4110.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4110.409718749999,"end":4111.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4111.6415937500005,"end":4124.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4117.1259687500005,"end":4117.4803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4117.4803437499995,"end":4117.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4117.69971875,"end":4117.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4117.83471875,"end":4117.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4117.9697187500005,"end":4118.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4119.43784375,"end":4119.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4119.606593750001,"end":4120.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4120.028468750001,"end":4120.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4120.214093750001,"end":4120.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4120.28159375,"end":4120.770968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4120.770968750001,"end":4121.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4121.007218750001,"end":4121.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4122.171593749999,"end":4143.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4124.97284375,"end":4126.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4126.50846875,"end":4126.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4128.263468749999,"end":4128.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4128.95534375,"end":4129.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4129.208468750001,"end":4129.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4129.5965937500005,"end":4131.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4131.30096875,"end":4131.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4131.52034375,"end":4133.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4136.59971875,"end":4136.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4137.44346875,"end":4146.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4143.75471875,"end":4144.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4145.07096875,"end":4145.712218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4147.33221875,"end":4168.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4147.349093750001,"end":4148.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4148.7665937500005,"end":4148.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4149.137843750001,"end":4149.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4149.694718750001,"end":4151.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4152.61409375,"end":4152.884093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4152.884093750001,"end":4153.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4153.154093749999,"end":4153.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4159.65096875,"end":4160.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4161.0009687500005,"end":4161.034718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4161.034718749999,"end":4161.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4163.78534375,"end":4166.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4166.333468750001,"end":4166.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4169.08409375,"end":4180.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4178.2978437500005,"end":4194.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4188.38909375,"end":4188.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4188.4228437500005,"end":4200.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4194.700343750001,"end":4196.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4196.03346875,"end":4197.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4199.2059687500005,"end":4199.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4201.028468750001,"end":4204.859093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4205.16284375,"end":4213.110968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4212.182843750001,"end":4232.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4214.27534375,"end":4215.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4217.295968750001,"end":4218.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4218.07221875,"end":4218.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4218.932843750001,"end":4219.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4219.911593750001,"end":4219.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4219.962218750001,"end":4222.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4224.788468750001,"end":4224.839093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4228.33221875,"end":4228.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4228.51784375,"end":4228.720343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4232.331593749999,"end":4239.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4240.17846875,"end":4242.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4240.80284375,"end":4241.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4242.507218750001,"end":4243.671593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4242.57471875,"end":4243.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4243.671593749999,"end":4243.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4243.84034375,"end":4249.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4243.97534375,"end":4244.565968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4245.882218750001,"end":4273.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4250.32034375,"end":4252.159718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4256.479718750001,"end":4256.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4259.618468750001,"end":4259.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4259.73659375,"end":4259.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4259.78721875,"end":4259.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4259.97284375,"end":4260.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4260.968468749999,"end":4261.778468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4262.16659375,"end":4263.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4268.663468750001,"end":4269.034718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4270.41846875,"end":4291.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4273.92846875,"end":4275.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4288.727843750001,"end":4290.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4291.22534375,"end":4291.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4291.2928437499995,"end":4294.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4291.32659375,"end":4291.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4292.72721875,"end":4294.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4294.583468750001,"end":4295.612843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4296.169718749999,"end":4306.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4298.07659375,"end":4299.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4301.282843749999,"end":4301.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4302.02534375,"end":4302.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4302.29534375,"end":4302.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4302.497843749999,"end":4304.202218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4304.202218750001,"end":4304.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4305.48471875,"end":4328.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4306.59846875,"end":4306.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4306.80096875,"end":4306.952843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4306.952843749999,"end":4307.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4307.96534375,"end":4309.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4309.88909375,"end":4309.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4309.97346875,"end":4310.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4310.63159375,"end":4312.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4312.55534375,"end":4313.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4322.83221875,"end":4323.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4325.97096875,"end":4326.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4329.39659375,"end":4337.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4329.919718749999,"end":4330.5272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4334.897843750001,"end":4334.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4334.91471875,"end":4335.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4338.272843750001,"end":4340.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4339.639718750001,"end":4341.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4340.97284375,"end":4341.360968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4341.968468749999,"end":4342.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4342.00221875,"end":4342.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4342.10346875,"end":4342.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4342.13721875,"end":4350.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4342.154093749999,"end":4343.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4343.97659375,"end":4345.394093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4345.394093749999,"end":4345.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4348.212218750001,"end":4355.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4351.401593750001,"end":4360.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4355.97471875,"end":4357.544093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4357.544093750001,"end":4357.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4357.965968750001,"end":4358.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4358.03346875,"end":4358.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4360.51409375,"end":4365.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4363.720343749999,"end":4363.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4363.7372187500005,"end":4365.829718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4365.930968750001,"end":4367.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4367.17971875,"end":4374.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4367.618468750001,"end":4369.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4369.03596875,"end":4369.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4369.8290937500005,"end":4369.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4374.72284375,"end":4401.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4377.0009687500005,"end":4382.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4385.337218750001,"end":4385.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4385.48909375,"end":4385.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4385.50596875,"end":4385.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4385.624093750001,"end":4387.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4387.075343750001,"end":4387.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4387.17659375,"end":4387.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4396.23846875,"end":4396.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4396.964093750001,"end":4397.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4401.925343749999,"end":4402.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4401.95909375,"end":4401.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4401.99284375,"end":4402.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4402.296593749999,"end":4402.347218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4402.684718750001,"end":4402.718468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4402.718468749999,"end":4403.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4403.005343750001,"end":4403.055968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4403.03909375,"end":4403.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4403.055968750001,"end":4403.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4403.8153437500005,"end":4403.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4403.86596875,"end":4403.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4403.950343750001,"end":4403.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4403.96721875,"end":4404.034718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4404.20346875,"end":4404.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4404.91221875,"end":4404.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4404.94596875,"end":4404.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4404.96284375,"end":4405.013468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4405.013468749999,"end":4405.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4405.28346875,"end":4405.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4405.31721875,"end":4405.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4405.31721875,"end":4405.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4405.36784375,"end":4407.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4405.958468750001,"end":4405.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4405.97534375,"end":4406.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4406.9540937500005,"end":4407.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4407.71346875,"end":4407.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4407.86534375,"end":4416.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4407.932843750001,"end":4409.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4416.184718750001,"end":4416.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4416.38721875,"end":4418.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4417.78784375,"end":4424.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4419.745343750001,"end":4420.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4426.09034375,"end":4428.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4426.22534375,"end":4426.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4426.7822187500005,"end":4429.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4430.22471875,"end":4444.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4436.87346875,"end":4437.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4437.075968749999,"end":4437.2615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4437.2615937499995,"end":4437.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4437.29534375,"end":4437.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4437.44721875,"end":4437.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4438.47659375,"end":4438.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4438.79721875,"end":4439.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4440.58596875,"end":4441.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4441.497218750001,"end":4444.214093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4444.349093750001,"end":4444.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4445.20971875,"end":4446.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4445.2772187499995,"end":4445.327843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4445.327843749999,"end":4445.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4445.96909375,"end":4446.407843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4446.99846875,"end":4451.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4448.02784375,"end":4448.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4448.97284375,"end":4452.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4451.36909375,"end":4455.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4452.887843750001,"end":4462.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":4456.22909375,"end":4458.034718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4458.034718749999,"end":4461.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4461.038468750001,"end":4462.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4462.55721875,"end":4465.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4462.5740937499995,"end":4462.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4463.468468749999,"end":4466.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4466.11784375,"end":4466.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4466.30346875,"end":4466.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4466.944718750001,"end":4468.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4467.079718749999,"end":4467.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4467.34971875,"end":4467.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4467.974093750001,"end":4468.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4468.024718750001,"end":4468.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4468.210343750001,"end":4468.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4468.42971875,"end":4468.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4468.7840937500005,"end":4468.868468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4468.868468750001,"end":4468.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4468.93596875,"end":4468.952843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":4468.952843749999,"end":4470.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4468.952843749999,"end":4479.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4470.977843750001,"end":4474.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4475.196593750001,"end":4475.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4476.124718749999,"end":4476.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4476.24284375,"end":4476.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4478.6728437500005,"end":4479.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4479.229718750001,"end":4481.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4479.34784375,"end":4481.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4481.03534375,"end":4496.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4481.96346875,"end":4482.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4482.975968750001,"end":4483.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4484.03909375,"end":4485.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4486.55346875,"end":4486.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4487.059718750001,"end":4487.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4489.624718749999,"end":4491.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4491.58221875,"end":4491.885968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4492.47659375,"end":4492.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4492.64534375,"end":4492.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4493.26971875,"end":4494.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4494.58596875,"end":4495.345343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4497.10034375,"end":4497.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4497.20159375,"end":4498.062218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4497.218468749999,"end":4503.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4498.3153437500005,"end":4498.585343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4499.31096875,"end":4500.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4503.968468749999,"end":4505.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4505.385968750001,"end":4505.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4505.40284375,"end":4505.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4505.419718749999,"end":4506.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4505.45346875,"end":4505.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4506.786593750001,"end":4512.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4508.102843750001,"end":4508.288468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4510.262843750001,"end":4510.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4510.27971875,"end":4510.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4511.0897187499995,"end":4512.034718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4512.034718749999,"end":4513.300343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4512.8447187500005,"end":4512.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4512.99659375,"end":4513.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4513.435343749999,"end":4516.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4516.911593750001,"end":4517.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4518.24471875,"end":4523.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4523.340968750001,"end":4524.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4525.18034375,"end":4525.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4525.450343750001,"end":4525.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4525.51784375,"end":4527.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4526.49659375,"end":4527.222218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4528.42034375,"end":4528.437218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4528.437218749999,"end":4528.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4528.4540937500005,"end":4529.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4529.31471875,"end":4529.331593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4529.331593749999,"end":4529.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4529.34846875,"end":4529.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4534.157843749999,"end":4534.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4534.74846875,"end":4551.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4545.02534375,"end":4545.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4546.307843750001,"end":4548.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4548.34971875,"end":4548.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4551.370343750001,"end":4553.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4553.02409375,"end":4556.939093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4553.108468750001,"end":4553.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4553.479718750001,"end":4553.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4556.26409375,"end":4563.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4558.862843749999,"end":4558.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4558.964093750001,"end":4559.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4559.2509687500005,"end":4560.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4560.887843750001,"end":4561.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4561.022843750001,"end":4561.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4561.073468750001,"end":4561.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4561.394093749999,"end":4561.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4564.41471875,"end":4564.718468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4564.870343750001,"end":4564.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4564.9715937500005,"end":4566.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4567.013468749999,"end":4569.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4569.122843749999,"end":4569.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4569.81471875,"end":4569.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4569.966593749999,"end":4570.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4570.0340937500005,"end":4570.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4570.388468749999,"end":4571.519093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4572.29534375,"end":4574.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4574.69159375,"end":4574.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4576.27784375,"end":4576.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4576.817843750001,"end":4576.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4576.9697187500005,"end":4577.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4579.65284375,"end":4585.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4586.08221875,"end":4588.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4588.46159375,"end":4592.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4589.760968750001,"end":4589.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4594.536593750001,"end":4602.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4602.67034375,"end":4603.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4604.290343750001,"end":4604.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4605.94409375,"end":4606.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4607.749718749999,"end":4608.593468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4609.015343749999,"end":4609.538468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4610.36534375,"end":4612.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4612.13721875,"end":4613.571593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4614.364718750001,"end":4615.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4615.765343749999,"end":4617.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4618.026593750001,"end":4619.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4619.612843749999,"end":4621.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4622.31284375,"end":4623.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4623.359093749999,"end":4627.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4628.0165937500005,"end":4631.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4631.44221875,"end":4633.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4633.669718749999,"end":4634.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4635.559718750001,"end":4636.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4636.859093749999,"end":4649.751593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4650.25784375,"end":4652.282843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4653.075968749999,"end":4654.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4654.98284375,"end":4657.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4657.632218750001,"end":4658.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4659.505343750001,"end":4662.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4662.76221875,"end":4666.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4667.82471875,"end":4669.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4670.474093750001,"end":4671.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4673.78159375,"end":4674.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4675.38471875,"end":4675.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4676.093468749999,"end":4677.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4677.7303437499995,"end":4678.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4679.097218749999,"end":4681.206593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4683.9403437500005,"end":4685.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4685.86409375,"end":4689.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4689.6103437500005,"end":4690.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4690.99409375,"end":4694.757218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4695.077843749999,"end":4697.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4698.840968750001,"end":4717.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4710.11346875,"end":4710.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4719.225968750001,"end":4722.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4750.124093750001,"end":4750.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4750.967843750001,"end":4756.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4756.46909375,"end":4756.9247187500005}],"whisperx":[{"start":1952.303,"end":1980.623,"text":"好請主任秘書報告出席人數報告委員會出席委員12人已足法定人數好我們現在開會進行報告事項請宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第一會期內政委員會第11次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年4月15日星期一上午九十二分至下午二十四十九分地點紅樓202會議室出席委員麥玉珍委員等14人練習委員沈伯陽委員等25人"},{"start":1981.783,"end":2009.136,"text":"練習官員﹚內政部部長林佑昌及相關人員﹚行政院主計總處副主計長陳慧娟﹚原住民組委員會公共建設處處長劉維哲及相關人員﹚行政院公共工程委員會技術處處長曾鈞敏﹚交通部綜合規劃司司長張垂龍及相關人員﹚勞動部勞動力發展署副署長鍾景濟及相關人員﹚農業部農糧署副署長姚志旺及相關人員﹚教育部高等教育室代理司長朱鈞璋及相關人員﹚衛生福利部社會救助及社公司司"},{"start":2011.057,"end":2028.693,"text":"財團法人徵災基金會督導陳宗良財政部負稅署副署長倪立新及相關人員主席高金召集委員素梅報告事項一宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定二邀請內政部部長行政院主計總處副主計長原住民組委員會行政院公共工程委員會交通部交通部觀光署"},{"start":2029.273,"end":2054.329,"text":"環境部﹚勞動部﹚農業部﹚教育部﹚衛生福利部﹚經濟部﹚財政部﹚國軍退出一關兵輔導委員會﹚金融監督管理委員會﹚救零四零災症災致災後救助﹚重建規劃及補助方式﹚及從東華實驗室失火事件檢討災害防救之完備化﹚進行專題報告並被質詢。內政部部長林佑昌﹚交通部綜合規劃司司長張垂龍﹚衛生福利部社會救助及社工司司長蘇昭儒報告委員脈一�"},{"start":2056.91,"end":2078.675,"text":"分別由內政部部長及相關人員、行政院總處副主計長、原住民組委員會公共建設處處長、行政院公共工程委員會技術處處長、交通部綜合規劃司司長及相關人員、環境部化學署署長、勞動部勞動力發展署副署長、農業部農糧署副署長、專業部高等教育室代理司長、衛生福利部社會救助及社工司司長、財團法人政災基金會督導"},{"start":2079.695,"end":2106.487,"text":"經濟部商業發展署主任秘書財政部負稅署副署長答覆說明決定一登記發言委員除不在場者外區域均已發言完必詢答結束二委員林益君吾沛逸羅志強邱若驊莊瑞雄徐宇貞等六人所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報三書面質詢及未及答覆部分及相關機關於一周內另以書面答覆必附資本會通過臨時提案十四案宣讀完畢好請問各位同仁上次的會議議事錄有沒有錯誤"},{"start":2108.799,"end":2115.722,"text":"討論立法院內政委員會數位身分證換發政策及預算執行調閱小組運作要點草案。"},{"start":2128.067,"end":2132.449,"text":"本日會議由委員徐宇珍等人提出數位身分證換發政策及預算執行調閱小組運作要點草案以及召委吳清明等人提出數位身分證換發政策及預算執行調閱小組運作要點草案等兩案"},{"start":2156.079,"end":2178.249,"text":"並任處理,現在請宣讀兩案的運作要點。宣讀完畢之後,我們就進行逐條討論,然後我們請徐玉珍委員先代理一下站帶主席,然後我去處理一些事情,謝謝。請宣讀。明稱委員徐玉珍等人提案及委員吳啟明等人提案,均為立法院內政委員會數位身分證換發政策及預算執行"},{"start":2181.508,"end":2201.557,"text":"調閱專案小組運作要點第一點委員徐玉珍等人提案立法院內政委員會立法院職權行使法第45條規定及立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議決議成立數位身分證換發政策及預算執行調閱專案小組以下簡稱本小組委員吳祺寧等人提案"},{"start":2202.057,"end":2229.994,"text":"立法院內政委員會數位身分證換發政策及預算執行調閱專案小組,以下簡稱本小組,依立法院職權行使法第45條規定及本院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第7次全體委員會議決成立。第二點,委員徐玉珍等人提案,本小組運作除有關法令令有規定外,依本要點行之。委員吳清明等人提案,本小組運作除憲法法律及本院有關法令令有規定外,依本要點行之。第三點,"},{"start":2230.794,"end":2258.189,"text":"委員徐宇珍等人提案及委員吳啟明等人提案本小組由內政委員會以下簡稱本會全體委員組成之第4點委員徐宇珍等人提案本小組至召集召集人一人由參加本小組成員互選負責處理小組事務並代表本小組對外發言委員吳啟明等人提案本小組召集人由高經召集委員宿美吳召集委員啟明按召集委員輪值表輪由擔任處理本小組會務並擔任會議主席"},{"start":2260.85,"end":2287.587,"text":"委員徐宇珍等人提案本小組會議需由委員三分之一出席方的開會其決議以出席委員過半數同意行之但在場出席委員不足三人者不得一決必要時得以秘密會議方式行之委員吳啟明等人提案本小組會議需由委員三分之一以上出席方的開會其決議以出席委員過半數之同意行之但在場出席委員不足三人者不得一決第六點委員徐宇珍等人提案及委員吳啟明等人提案"},{"start":2288.507,"end":2307.252,"text":"本小組會議有關聯署或附議人數準用本院各委員會會議之規定。第7點為徐毅臻等人提案本小組運作期間自民國113年4月17日起至113年8月31日至。但經本小組決議的延長之資料查閱時間為每周一至周五上午9時至下午5時"},{"start":2308.132,"end":2314.096,"text":"委員吳啟明等人提案本小組運作期間自民國113年4月17日至113年5月31日但經本小組決議得延長至資料查閱時間為每週一至週五上午9時至12時下午1時30分至5時"},{"start":2323.763,"end":2342.152,"text":"第8點委員律政等人提案本小組成員行使查閱職權時應親自為之並屬名於查閱登記部查閱人員負保密義務﹖對經歷難見不得抄錄、攝影、引用、送讀、錄音或為其他複製行為亦不得將文件犀利查閱場所或洩漏之前項經歷難見如被調閱機關拒絕提供時該機關應以書面示明經歷之種類及原因並於三個工作天內"},{"start":2348.675,"end":2348.695,"text":"第9點"},{"start":2370.405,"end":2394.887,"text":"委員徐玉珍的人提案及委員吳啟明的人提案本小組對外行人得以本會名義為之本小組成人未經決議不得以本小組名義對外發言第10點委員徐玉珍的人提案本小組調閱文件之對象為與數位身分證換發政策及預算執行之所有相關機關本小組擬調閱之文件應經本小組三任以上提案並經本小組決議通過調取之調閱文件以附本為原則"},{"start":2395.788,"end":2408.721,"text":"委員吳啟明的人提案本小組調閱文件之對象為數位身分證換發政策及預算執行之所有相關器官但經本小組決議得增加調閱對象本小組調閱文件之範圍及相關事宜需經本小組之決議調閱文件"},{"start":2411.49,"end":2434.18,"text":"調閱之文件以副本為原則第11點委員徐玉珍等人提案本小組會議召開時得邀請被調閱文件之機關首長率同有關人員列席說明受邀請者非有正當理由不得拒絕出席及說明委員吳啟明等人提案本小組會議召開時得邀請被調閱文件之機關首長率同有關人員列席委員徐玉珍等人提案第12點本小組為"},{"start":2437.702,"end":2455.014,"text":"為預調閱文件需要﹐得附相關單位查訪﹐並得訪談與本案相關之人士或諮詢專家學者﹐本小組會議召開及調閱文件時﹐得聘請專家學者陪同調閱﹐及針對調閱內容表示意見。請向專家學者之人選以二人為姓由召集員提名﹐全體本小組成員表決之。"},{"start":2456.365,"end":2470.538,"text":"文緒貞等人提案第13點及委員吳啟明等人提案第12點對調閱對象在調閱期間應指派專員將調閱文件送達指定場所以供查閱並派員管理及付保管責任文緒貞等人提案第14點"},{"start":2471.519,"end":2486.412,"text":"本小組提出調閱報告及處理意見應經本會決議調查報告書及處理意見會提出前工作人員、專業人員、保管人員或參與人員附有保密之義務不得對文件內容或處理情形予以揭露涉及依法令應秘密事項者應予保密並以秘密會議處理之"},{"start":2488.274,"end":2505.392,"text":"違憂欺民等人提案第13點本小組提出調閱報告及處理意見應經本會決議調閱報告書及處理意見未提出前工作人員專業人員保管人員或查閱人員附有保密之義務不得對文件名容或處理情形予以揭露涉及依法令依秘密事項則應以保密並以秘密會議處理之"},{"start":2506.954,"end":2528.309,"text":"委員徐宇貞等人提案第15點及委員吳啟明等人提案第14點本小組所需工作人員由本會職員擔任必要時得依立法院職權行使法第49條規定請求院長指派專業人員協助委員徐宇貞等人提案第16點及委員吳啟明等人提案第15點本運作要點由本會通過後施行修正時異同宣讀完畢"},{"start":2531.052,"end":2550.327,"text":"我們現在先處理要點名稱因為兩個版本其實要點名稱都是相同的那是不是這個要點名稱就照徐宇貞委員跟文啟明委員的這個提案通過好嗎?好"},{"start":2553.356,"end":2568.694,"text":"好,我們繼續進行下一條,第一點第一點因為徐貞委員跟吳啟明委員其實他引用的法條是相同只是寫法的順序不同那請問一下是不是通過徐貞委員的版本第一點"},{"start":2575.131,"end":2584.458,"text":"引用的法條我跟這個吳啓明委員引用的法條是一樣的那只是寫法不同那是不是能夠通過徐執政委員的版本"},{"start":2587.33,"end":2606.883,"text":"就兩案一起都通過啊?兩個啊?可是要用哪一個?因為其實這個部分我跟吳祈寧召委其實用的引用的法條都是一樣第45條規定即新建第11屆第1會期的第7次全體委員會議決議"},{"start":2610.151,"end":2617.358,"text":"寫法不同意,那吳啟民召委是不是同意可以選我的版本好嗎?好,謝謝,謝謝吳啟民召委。好,我們現在在討論第二點。第二點的話,那個就不一致了,那是他要採用虛擬上還是吳啟民?"},{"start":2633.716,"end":2637.378,"text":"主席,因為你會覺得吳清明站在這裏很清楚嗎?"},{"start":2660.805,"end":2674.675,"text":"是不是大家討論看也要,好不好,因為我覺得大家既然,我們也不要這樣含含糊糊,既然成立這個專案小組,我們就消耗錢"},{"start":2680.421,"end":2709.149,"text":"好,其實我們所有的運作應該都是要依據憲法跟法律的規定啊,所以還有需要另外再想一下對啦,欸主席因為齁除了憲法法律本頁有關齁另有法律規定之外齁因為齁這是一個要點嘛,好不好好,那就是依照吳啟明委員的版本通過好好,我們第二點就依照吳啟明委員的版本通過"},{"start":2714.899,"end":2715.4,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2721.584,"end":2746.179,"text":"因為本席的提案跟吳啓明委員的提案不同那基本上呢因為我這邊可以說明一下就是說根據這個部分是希望說因為過去調閱小組其實都有一名或兩名的這個相關的經驗但是因為為了避免兩名召委輪值影響調閱文件的時程所以我們就建議比照110年3月27號交通委員會的進電式"},{"start":2749.961,"end":2773.214,"text":"調閱專業小組運作要點致一名召集人那個主席我覺得啦兩位召委都來當我覺得比較好啦這個輪值跟這個我覺得都一樣啊我們每週開會也都是這樣啊"},{"start":2775.964,"end":2776.505,"text":"李博義委員"},{"start":2789.915,"end":2817.375,"text":"先保留OK好對啊表白一下這個其實好那我們在過去過去也有相關的案例不要說只有靜電視過去也曾經在疫苗或者是在行政院鎮壓反服貿學院真相調查小組也是兩個招委啊兩個招委會更周全啊當然我們先保留比如說這個不要用表決對這個可以討論一下那就我們先保留我們先處理"},{"start":2827.624,"end":2839.993,"text":"第5點必要時得以秘密會議方式行之徐真委員"},{"start":2843.527,"end":2868.678,"text":"好,來,第6,第6點對,就是徐貞委員跟吳啟寧委員的版本是相同的所以第6點我們就通過然後第7點本小組的運作時間我的版本是到8月31號就是我們的這個這一個會期的會期結束"},{"start":2870.56,"end":2871.182,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":2880.458,"end":2880.838,"text":"主席你說的是說"},{"start":2910.902,"end":2911.022,"text":"草案。﹗"},{"start":2939.975,"end":2955.308,"text":"第8點的部分是前面是一樣的但後面的就是前項機密文件如被調閱機關拒絕提供時該機關應以書面示明機密之種類及原因不予三個工作天內縱交本小組存查"},{"start":2955.968,"end":2956.228,"text":"有意見嗎?有意見嗎?"},{"start":2990.986,"end":3006.098,"text":"主席,因為我們在第8案,第8案在立法院之前刑事法第50條規定是院長或會院長指派專業人員親自參與調閱這是我的提案,謝謝"},{"start":3019.269,"end":3024.132,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第12次全體委員會"},{"start":3039.977,"end":3041.278,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3078.83,"end":3079.571,"text":"好那請問"},{"start":3085.484,"end":3106.468,"text":"主席這個我想兩個版本其實差不多啦一直是一樣不過因為你看在您提出的版本這個地方違與這個數位身分證相關機關嘛那後面它是委員的版本是說淡金本小組決議得增加調閱資產差不多啦可是好像委員的版本會不會比較容易讀一點點那違與違與數位"},{"start":3112.27,"end":3113.29,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3131.898,"end":3156.807,"text":"對那因為我相信就是貴黨應該是希望能夠調閱的越多越好嘛所以既然一直前面相同那吳衛原你看他還加了一個但書你看本小組可以決議增加欸這不是很棒嗎那要不要採用吳衛原版本我呃我的版本也是一樣啊就是只要相關的通通可以啊對啊是所以這個部分就都要照你的的版本不是不是我覺得大家討論啊大家討論"},{"start":3163.011,"end":3188.632,"text":"我的建議是這樣子啦如果說大家因為其實初委員會以後也不會是哪一個人的版本啦都是大家辛苦努力的啊所以能夠不是那麼堅持意見不是那麼相同的話我們是不是就這樣子大家和平這樣子好不好謝謝那是不是這第10點就依照這個區域政委員的版本好嗎第10點對第10點好不好好"},{"start":3190.428,"end":3218.383,"text":"第10點就依照徐宇貞委員的版本通過,草案通過,謝謝。好,第11點我跟吳勤民召委的後半段就受邀請者非有正當理由不得拒絕出席及說明,我是增加了這個就是希望能夠更讓這個法條更完善。非有正當理由不得拒絕出席及說明。"},{"start":3221.241,"end":3248.863,"text":"我覺得我覺得還好啦這個我們立法院的那個尊嚴我覺得這還好啦好反正我們就是依照徐宇貞委員的版本通過好謝謝第11點就照樣通過然後第12點只有我的版本有嘛吳釗蕙的版本沒有這點那請各位看一下針對這點大家有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":3256.349,"end":3260.07,"text":"如果說啦我們這個去受訪機關查訪訪談的話會不會逾越這個文件調查權巡視的範圍我們大家要思考一下"},{"start":3280.447,"end":3308.365,"text":"學信委員因為我想這個是應該是我這提案是希望說我們到身分單位查訪是希望把這個這個我們調閱小組的這個整個能夠更完整的了解所有的全貌而且也可以徵詢跟本案相關的人士或諮詢專家學者是讓整個這個整個運作要點能夠更加完善"},{"start":3316.007,"end":3316.367,"text":"11條的我覺得"},{"start":3344.906,"end":3345.206,"text":"明徐庭委員"},{"start":3384.21,"end":3384.631,"text":"李博弈委員"},{"start":3385.205,"end":3405.997,"text":"我講一下齁 這個我們立法院自己的執權刑事法第50條就是說這其實是院長他其實經過黨團協商之後那可能各委員會有很多的這些調閱的小組這樣才不會每一個委員會之後出去的這些專家學者你立法院已經無法掌控到多到可能這個意見也沒有辦法很"},{"start":3407.418,"end":3409.279,"text":"好,那這條先保留好,現在第13點"},{"start":3434.554,"end":3434.734,"text":"草案。﹚"},{"start":3450.037,"end":3454.16,"text":"徐宇貞委員版本的13點跟吳啟明召委的12點是一樣的?剛剛13點跟吳召委的12點大家沒有意見嗎?因為是一樣的嗎?現在是徐宇貞委員版本第14點"},{"start":3474.647,"end":3501.028,"text":"跟吳昭偉的第13點 調查跟調閱這個我建議用吳啟明委員的 因為立法院職權刑事法是調閱立法院職權刑事法是調閱好那大家還有沒有意見如果沒有的話這個就依照吳啟明昭偉的版本好嗎就第13點吳啟明委員版本的第13點好好那"},{"start":3502.222,"end":3529.025,"text":"徐貞委員第15點跟吳啟明召委的14點是一樣的嗎?只有阿拉伯數字跟國字的差別那是不是就統一就依照國字好不好?可以嗎?那就依徐貞委員的版本通過其實就是一起的版本啦徐貞委員第16點跟吳啟明召委的第15點是一樣的那是不是也召案通過?"},{"start":3530.899,"end":3531.079,"text":"第4、第7、第8、第12點"},{"start":3540.043,"end":3562.419,"text":"還有對我的第12徐宇珍委員的第12點好針對第4條本小組至召集一人徐珍委員版本是由參加小組成員互選負責處理小組事務並代表本小組對外發言那吳啓明召委的是本小組召集人由高金召委吳啓明召委按召集委員輪值表輪流擔當處理本小組會務並擔任會議主席那我們現在進行表決"},{"start":3573.03,"end":3573.11,"text":"委員會委員"},{"start":3591.857,"end":3603.122,"text":"主席,在這裡剛才說暴流、反倒返海、再次要說,你雖說標準,說實在的,大家伯伯、董事,我們是希望說有問題的,站出來討論,怎麼說都沒關係,只是說最好是兩個職位都可以納入在裡面,這樣是最好的啦,以上。"},{"start":3622.555,"end":3622.735,"text":"蘇晨優委員"},{"start":3638.47,"end":3638.51,"text":"草案。．"},{"start":3668.81,"end":3669.03,"text":"草案。．"},{"start":3688.695,"end":3701.51,"text":"不採用這樣的方式嗎?讓大家都有互相表示的意見嗎?事實上你一個我一個讓大家都有發言的空間時間召集會議的權限等等的其實以現在的狀況來講你們也不會輸啊"},{"start":3703.832,"end":3704.553,"text":"主席主席委員"},{"start":3732.612,"end":3760.712,"text":"我覺得這樣子啦齁因為即便是一個召集人的情況下大家也都是可以參與會議啦那我是覺得大家就是比喻監督政府我們讓速度稍微快一點那既然說我們現在大概對第四條跟第七條可能都有些意見我們是希望一個人一個召集人這樣比較快那這樣相對來講你們對第七條的時間上我們可以商量一下怎麼調整嘛就時間稍微短一點然後我們在比較短的時間內把這個調閱的工作把它做完善盡大家監督的責任我是覺得是不是就各退一步啦大家也比較大家也不要"},{"start":3761.292,"end":3764.002,"text":"不要再這邊兵戎相見會不會比較好我們再商量一下嘛好不好"},{"start":3770.545,"end":3789.817,"text":"還有委員有意見嗎?哪有規定的東西跟沒有規定的來大家互相商量我是覺得還是清楚一點我們這第4條裡面輪流召集當然是一直沿用的慣例包含過去8年民進黨多數的時候還是尊重在野黨其實我們在講到第7條"},{"start":3793.059,"end":3820.238,"text":"現在沒有人知道說這個會期要開到8月31然後我們這個調閱小組開到8月31跟我們的職權行使法裡面46條我們的調閱小組委員會專案小組的設立應該在立法院的會期中為之這個是定下來是怪怪的啦所以以上做這些討論大家再商量一下商量一下"},{"start":3821.687,"end":3850.863,"text":"那我們先處理那個蘇晴惠委員對如果是要連第7條剛剛牛委員的意思的話一起講的話那我們就一起講齁這個如果我們是要說會期中的話那確實啊憲法規定剛剛不是大家才剛說了嗎是本小組運作是要依循憲法的啊那憲法就是規定我們的會期是到5月31但我們也沒有說我們這個調閱小組我們就只開到5月31因為以第7條吳祈明委員的版本是531之後呢"},{"start":3851.383,"end":3853.505,"text":"今本小組決議得延長之。"},{"start":3873.464,"end":3895.083,"text":"的版本這不是在討論說可以不可以而是我們是依照立法院職權行使法加憲法這樣下去我認為第7條是採用無委員的版本那如果是這樣的狀況下那我們就不要把它兩條包在一起我們就回來講第4條我覺得立法院真的還是大家互相尊重啦有時候誰做在野黨做在執政黨這個風水輪流轉啦"},{"start":3898.226,"end":3903.128,"text":"像幸好我們過去有這個蔣委員的時候沒有讓他當召集人現在我們也可以說啊對不對而且你看如果剛剛一直提到這個兩岸服貿協議調閱小組的話當時也是由張慶中委員和陳其邁委員兩個輪流擔任啊對不對所以我是覺得大家比較互相的啦因為召集人最重要的是他可以決定用什麼題目什麼時間點還是兩席大家互相一下比較好一點啊"},{"start":3935.599,"end":3945.625,"text":"其實兩個召集人反而讓外界有認為更公平更公開的一個觀感一個感覺"},{"start":3952.066,"end":3954.788,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會議"},{"start":3964.062,"end":3964.202,"text":"草案。．﹚"},{"start":3989.855,"end":3997.045,"text":"主席你現在是休息協商嗎還是怎麼樣因為你剛剛沒有宣布休息"},{"start":3999.099,"end":4005.823,"text":"因為過去陳其邁跟張慶忠也是兩個,他們兩個都當操練嘛對啊過去是陳其邁跟張慶忠啊欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸欸"},{"start":4027.015,"end":4028.819,"text":"立法院第11屆第2會議"},{"start":4038.097,"end":4064.07,"text":"來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來來"},{"start":4066.412,"end":4081.125,"text":"如果說今天可以協商出一個公事大家就按公司辦也就是協商嘛那如果不按公司辦那就是主條表決嘛那就是這樣子阿我是覺得其實好不容易我們已經兩個月了其實高委員跟吳委員這樣都蠻好的那今天其實高委員也"},{"start":4083.298,"end":4087.662,"text":"我現在是說大家互相參詳我也是我們不要說大家都是互相為了你們的調閱"},{"start":4111.799,"end":4121.069,"text":"一個時候你們要調閱的也有你們要調的也有同樣調的如果就是一個人 剩下三條可以招你們是沒有問題"},{"start":4135.223,"end":4152.573,"text":"因為我就在那裡面議案,這樣就達成共同議案,好不好?不是啦!醫療是關...不是啦!醫療是關...那...那如果是這樣那就...那就表決嘛!不是啦!大家...對啦!表決...現在是大家...我講完啦!啊!表決等於都...都趕過去啦!不然都滾不去啦!上山堵那邊大啊!"},{"start":4156.195,"end":4156.435,"text":"草案。．﹚"},{"start":4174.011,"end":4192.484,"text":"改調啦 現在可以參選的為什麼不參選所以我講嘛 現在有四條大家有不同意見的嘛比如說第一條原則上讓我們一個召集人的話 另外三條我們就召民進黨一間通過嘛這樣我們是不是各退一步 時間上面那個委員小組啊好啦 我跟你請問的齁 你堅持要愛一個社會啦齁 跟我們要愛兩個啦齁"},{"start":4199.369,"end":4215.776,"text":"我先問問你,你是如何要堅持一個社會,是如何要平衡?你一邊一邊堅持的態度,我聽你說,我覺得你可以,我也支持你,這樣好不好?我來講,我來講,你看,我講國語來,可以啦,齁?你看我們內政,"},{"start":4223.473,"end":4224.894,"text":"立法院內政委員會主席"},{"start":4244.025,"end":4265.656,"text":"這會議沒討論 哎唷威啊 每個人都有討論啦如果那一個是吳釗偉的話 你這樣解說下去這樣變你誤解你誤解 如果那一個人是吳釗偉那也是有效率 那我們就是希望一個就是有一個 對啊 就一個希望有效率 所以你剛剛提說委員會也有兩個釗偉"},{"start":4266.977,"end":4292.99,"text":"即便有兩個州委,你看,同一個部會他還是就是那個州委。因為不要緊啦,因為大家都最尊重,你如果要堅持這樣,我也是尊重你啦。這是可以未來喔,我們可以更好,不要大家說,不然我就要占什麼占什麼,跟我們人就這麼多而已,我就特別來討,這樣就,平安心說,我們就真的,幹嘛開竅。"},{"start":4297.315,"end":4298.436,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":4317.841,"end":4318.682,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4340.163,"end":4353.073,"text":"我們沒有要表決啊沒有啦 當有說表決我上次為了你們說表決 我不想 實際上都沒可能 實際上都不需要這樣真的不要表決 表決會實際上很糟糕你們去看啦"},{"start":4360.538,"end":4360.678,"text":"草案。﹗"},{"start":4380.325,"end":4401.26,"text":"所以我們在條文上面還是堅持一個,那你們其他條文就按照一個時間,包括時間。但是如果你們信任我的話,我在排這個調查小組的時候,我們要調查什麼東西,我會充分跟這個召委,我們大家商量。這樣好不好?大家是不是比較和諧一點啊?"},{"start":4401.98,"end":4425.499,"text":"我是覺得這個沒什麼意義啦買一個不買兩個的帥啦搞走的時候要調那個什麼都可以啦說實在話啦我是很相信你的公正啦我唯一的意思是話說你當召集人以後每天都像這樣子喔上下午各一場好我現在講"},{"start":4428.241,"end":4443.412,"text":"我們要效率之前我跟趙偉還有兩位民進黨可以決定的我們就討論一下我們要做什麼事情好不好這樣好不好這樣可以嗎這樣可以嗎好不好這樣我們就不要表決我們就大家和諧"},{"start":4448.015,"end":4451.558,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4467.169,"end":4482.052,"text":"對啦對啦等一下第7條第7條那個531那個得延長要拿掉沒有完全照規的啦照規的啦照規的啦照規的啦照規的啦照規的啦照規的啦"},{"start":4497.255,"end":4497.876,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4518.374,"end":4518.675,"text":"草案。﹚"},{"start":4534.775,"end":4536.056,"text":"徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員"},{"start":4572.373,"end":4587.045,"text":"那第12點的部分好,第12條的部分就是徐宇貞委員的部分就這12點就不予採納剛協調是這樣嗎?好,那是不是請先宣讀一下條文"},{"start":4594.617,"end":4601.319,"text":"宣讀立法院內政委員會《數位身分證換發政策及預算執行調閱專案小組運作要點》草案協商結果要點名稱依照"},{"start":4610.41,"end":4634.17,"text":"委員徐以貞及委員吳清明等提案通過。第一點,照委員徐以貞等提案通過第二點,照委員吳清明等提案通過第三點,照委員徐以貞及委員吳清明等提案通過第四點,照委員徐以貞等提案通過第五點,照委員徐以貞等提案通過"},{"start":4635.592,"end":4639.274,"text":"提案通過提案通過提案通過提案通過提案通過提案通過"},{"start":4655.014,"end":4680.789,"text":"第11點照委員徐以貞等提案通過委員徐以貞等提案第12點不予採納委員徐以貞等提案第13點委員吳祁鳴等提案第12點照案通過委員徐以貞第13點照委員吳祁鳴等提案通過"},{"start":4683.993,"end":4697,"text":"委員徐一貞等提案第15點及委員吳清明等提案第14點,照案通過委員徐一貞等提案第16點及委員吳清明等提案第15點,照提案通過宣布完畢"},{"start":4699.165,"end":4699.365,"text":"草案。﹗"},{"start":4751.006,"end":4751.747,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"15821","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15821","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302ddd40e7c6eb22b5d9c3318e703f1c5fb743be8d109af184be4b6e1e1917f09bf5d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-17T13:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：本院交通委員會報告審查委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「花東快速公路建設特別條例草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-17","start_time":"2024-04-17T13:38:04+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[23],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2024041638","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-04-17T13:44:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":356,"委員發言時間":"13:38:04 - 13:44:00","影片長度":"00:05:56","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.35159375000000004,"end":1.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.6003437500000002,"end":1.7522187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.64471875,"end":43.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.737218750000004,"end":45.812843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.656593750000006,"end":46.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.58471875,"end":47.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.75346875,"end":47.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.87159375,"end":47.939093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.939093750000005,"end":47.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.97284375,"end":51.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.085968750000006,"end":53.744093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.43596875,"end":55.009718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.06034375,"end":55.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.039093750000006,"end":56.882843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.00471875,"end":60.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.20284375000001,"end":62.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.57784375,"end":65.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.59034375,"end":65.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.64096875,"end":65.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.75909375,"end":66.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.69971875,"end":67.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.96971875,"end":68.00346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.97784375,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.90596875,"end":70.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.92284375,"end":71.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.91846875,"end":72.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.07846875,"end":75.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.04034375,"end":75.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.96846875,"end":76.64346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.38596875,"end":77.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.79096875,"end":79.39409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.82471875,"end":77.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.96784375,"end":80.05221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.05221875000001,"end":80.06909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.06909375000001,"end":80.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.32221875,"end":80.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.37284375,"end":80.47409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.92971875,"end":85.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.30096875000001,"end":82.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.88659375,"end":87.66284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.62471875,"end":89.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.97034375000001,"end":91.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.43409375,"end":94.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.71659375,"end":95.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.89346875000001,"end":97.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.32346875,"end":100.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.48784375000001,"end":100.50471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.84221875,"end":103.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.93034375,"end":104.89221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.97659375,"end":105.76971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.71034375,"end":109.71846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.02659375,"end":109.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.39346875000001,"end":111.89534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.00909375,"end":113.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.49846875,"end":114.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.35471875,"end":115.89471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.53596875000001,"end":117.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.48096875,"end":118.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.13034375000001,"end":120.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.41284375000001,"end":122.22284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.81721875000001,"end":129.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.86284375,"end":131.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.02284375000002,"end":134.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.11534375000002,"end":136.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.02221875,"end":138.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.97971875000002,"end":140.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.51096875000002,"end":142.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.77221875,"end":144.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.91534375,"end":146.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.78846875000002,"end":148.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.94846875000002,"end":151.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.74534375000002,"end":154.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.94346875000002,"end":155.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.05284375000002,"end":157.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.94721875000002,"end":158.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.89221875,"end":158.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.09471875,"end":162.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.03096875,"end":163.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.09846875000002,"end":162.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.82409375,"end":163.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.81971875000002,"end":163.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.97159375,"end":164.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.14034375,"end":164.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.93346875,"end":167.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.43096875,"end":167.61659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.61659375000002,"end":168.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.67971875,"end":169.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.64159375,"end":172.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.80409375000002,"end":210.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.41159375,"end":212.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.34784375,"end":216.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.89159375000003,"end":221.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.86971875,"end":224.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.59471875000003,"end":229.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.61846875,"end":237.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.03159375,"end":241.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.86659375000002,"end":244.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.60034375,"end":246.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.09784375,"end":249.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.13909375000003,"end":253.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.30721875,"end":257.83034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.429,"end":0.789,"text":"現在不是選舉組嗎?"},{"start":41.691,"end":55.639,"text":"好,我們現在協商《花東快速公路建設特別條例草案》現在協商?大家有沒有意見?"},{"start":61.245,"end":87.381,"text":"那進行第一條第一條要唸嗎?第一條有沒有意見?好,名稱要唸喔?沒有,名稱是花東快速公路建設特別條例各位有沒有意見?"},{"start":88.683,"end":101.071,"text":"誰有意見?有沒有意見再問一次?沒有啊到底是有還是沒有?什麼火箭鬼啊?沒有人想有啊?誰想有?有的過來請舉手沒有啊?然後呢?"},{"start":117.72,"end":146.639,"text":"第一台有沒有意見?沒有沒有還是有?沒有天台你不要講話,你講話好像有跟沒有差不多第二台有沒有意見?沒有第三台有沒有意見?沒有第四台有沒有意見?沒有第五台有沒有意見?沒有第六台有沒有意見?沒有第七台有沒有意見?沒有第八台有沒有意見?沒有第九台有沒有意見?"},{"start":147.83,"end":163.105,"text":"第四條有沒有意見?沒有!第十一條有沒有意見?沒有!第十二條沒有了吧?沒有!"},{"start":176.851,"end":188.315,"text":"委員委員會主席"},{"start":215.086,"end":228.797,"text":"協商通過條文,法案名稱第一條、第二條、第三條、第四條、第五條、第六條、第七條、第八條、第九條、第十條、第十一條,並建請院長召集協商。"},{"start":239.11,"end":253.619,"text":"那我就先走吧,他們坐在這邊好好討論一下我就離開了嘛你們跟部長好好討論,我先走了好,散會部長"},{"start":267.207,"end":268.208,"text":"負責負責"},{"start":285.282,"end":292.11,"text":"審查委員會報告"},{"start":304.443,"end":304.784,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":319.6,"end":321.222,"text":"審查委員會報告"}]}},{"id":"151329","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151329","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f0162779b3fe70ccc2a5ed0e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c943b92ca8a14ff0d395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"13:08:32 - 13:13:23","影片長度":"00:04:51","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":291,"end_time":"2024-04-17T13:13:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T13:08:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":636,"blocks":[["林委員國成：（13時8分）主席，請部長。"],["主席：不好意思！請簡短一點，因為要處理案子。"],["林委員國成：好，OK。"],["王部長國材：林委員好。"],["林委員國成：部長，今天質詢你，心裡有依依不捨，在我個人不管是當議員甚至當立委，我看到的是講求專業的王國材。"],["王部長國材：謝謝。"],["林委員國成：這不是拍馬屁，是因為我私底下曾請教你，我比較質問的，就是傅崐萁總召就花蓮的部分提出兩個案、三個案，但我看到本會同仁一直在批評這個、批評那個，可是我私底下有請教你，你確確實實覺得花蓮的交通是要解決的，可是我們今天說實在的，你這個專業的走了，又換一個政治的，那就更糟糕了。所以我還是要呼籲未來的賴政府，交通的事情要用交通解決，不是用政治解決，所以我還真的滿希望下一屆的部長，最少要像王國材這樣的講專業再講政治，不要先講政治再講專業。","本席雖有依依不捨，但是就事論事還是要來談國道六號的問題，大家為什麼不想一想，我們從南投到花蓮，花蓮到南投，本來是20公里而已，偏偏一定要繞了350公里才可以到花蓮、才可以到南投，情何以堪！南投的人也是人，花蓮的人也是人，住在臺北或是住在哪裡的都是人啊！臺灣人民為什麼要有不同的待遇？就是因為有政治力的介入！所以我就感覺很奇怪，建設都不談專業，卻先談政治，然後再來談專業，這是本末倒置！基本上本席非常不贊同。","另外，部長，你有沒有想一想，為什麼他們一直要提這個案？這也是被你們逼的啦！30年來你們說要做，不管是蘇花高、蘇花什麼、蘇花鐵或者國道六號，都被你們騙到現在已經30年過去了，住在花東地區的人，住在沿線的人，我跟你說，剛才我看到傅崐萁總召在播放那些東西，我瞬間就有一個想法，如果那個石頭掉下來砸到的是我或者親人，你情何以堪？你心裡面是什麼感覺？你們在做專業判定的時候，如果有這種心情，我認為這個問題很快就可以解決了，不是嗎？所以真的，將心比心，30年來你們大家都是專家、都在做計畫，都政治凌駕於專業，這樣不好。最後，也有人在講，這已經花3,000億了，但就算花了3,000億，問題還是沒解決，花3兆也是一樣啊！沒有問題被解決，你花一塊錢都是浪費公帑，所以這3,000億不要再講了。","還有，有人說那裡有岩石、地震等等什麼東西的，我跟你說，部長，用技術啦！現在都可以有所突破，不要用臺灣人民的想法，我坦白跟你講，任何再困難的技術都有辦法去處理，所以說實在的，我住在臺北，而我本身是屏東人，當然跟我無關，可是我就看不過去，你聽懂嗎？部長，雖然我依依不捨，但是你有在講良心話，我希望下一任的部長不要再政治凌駕專業，所以我要拜託部長，你也不用答復了，因為心裡話你也不敢說出來，不要政治凌駕專業，我還是要呼籲，專業很重要，不要政治凌駕專業，所以拜託這個案件該做的就要做，這是本席對交通部所有人員的一個期許，好，你也不用答復了！謝謝。"],["王部長國材：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林國成委員。","現在處理臨時提案，本日計有1個案子，請議事人宣讀。","案由：鑑於0403花蓮地震造成地形地貌重大改變，地質更加脆弱，且山區環境極不穩定；又高速公路局曾於110年12月召開國內專家顧問諮詢會議，諮詢國外專家初步評估須穿越中央山脈，不確定因素高，除工程技術困難度極高，並具有造價高、工期長、環境衝擊巨大、行車安全及防救災疑慮。","然安全回家的路，不僅是基於交流便利之交通平權，更應是立於安全之上，本草案涉及重大交通建設之推動，自規劃至執行等過程需經過詳實可行性評估，嚴謹確認符合計畫效益，為避免本草案審查過程過於倉促草率，應給予委員們就法案內容充裕之討論餘地，以期使立法過程更為周詳務實。爰要求交通部針對重大交通建設推動應循序漸進，先完成地質調查及踏勘研究，再視研究成果進行可行性評估。","提案人：林俊憲　　李昆澤　　陳素月　　何欣純　　徐富癸　　蔡其昌"],["主席：請問交通部有沒有意見？"],["趙局長興華：報告委員會，沒有意見。"],["主席：交通部沒有意見。各位委員有沒有意見？有啊！魯委員，你要不要說明一下？"],["魯委員明哲：我想針對於安全的部分跟專業技術的部分，其實大家都是有共識，交通上有一個安全回家的路，不管是通往花東還是西部，都是我們臺灣東南西北的共同要求，我們的意見就這方面是沒有問題的。但是後面第二段的部分，其實就直接講到了我們國道六號東延花蓮的條例，這整個的內容，我覺得是針對立法委員、是針對我們，它不是在講交通部，而是立法委員應該要怎麼樣、怎麼樣，對交通部反而基本上沒有提任何的事情，完全沒有對他們有一些要求，我想就這個部分，就是對委員這邊有一個討論，因為待會國道六號東延我們花蓮的這個案子，本來就會逐條做一個討論，在這個討論中，都可以直接一一來表達意見，所以我個人是不希望第二段有一些針對立委的文字在裡面，謝謝。"],["主席：好，請副院長。"],["蔡委員其昌：我剛剛在這裡聽林國成委員提到政治不應該凌駕專業，本人深有同感，我也覺得政治不應該凌駕專業，民進黨幾位委員同仁所提的臨時提案，很清楚地「爰要求交通部針對重大交通建設推動應循序漸進，先完成地質調查及踏勘研究，再視研究成果進行可行性評估」。我想請問，要求交通部做這樣的一個行政程序，不是因為對專業的重視、不是國家在面對重大交通建設所該進行的程序嗎？就算今天最後國民黨所提、傅崐萁委員所提的版本通過了，難道我們的程序不是先進行地質調查、踏勘研究，再進行可行性評估嗎？這個叫做專業啦！所以我不知道的是，反對這個案子後，接下來就算傅崐萁委員的版本通過了，請問一下諸位委員，你們該怎麼進行國道六號延伸花東的案子？所以我想民進黨委員所提的這個提案，主要是提醒交通部，程序就是這樣走，如果大家反對程序這樣走，我倒想請教大家接下來認為應該怎麼樣走？表決過了，交通部連地質探勘什麼都不用做，可行性評估也不用做就直接蓋嗎？這個叫做政治凌駕專業，我以上做這樣的報告。"],["主席：好，謝謝副院長。","請林俊憲委員。"],["林委員俊憲：謝謝主席，各位同仁，剛剛提到的地質調查報告，也許我們很多同仁不曉得，國道六號東延到花蓮的路廊踏勘及地質調查進行到一半，這是112（2023）年12月14號展開的，也就是說，目前正在進行地質調查當中，預計2026年完成地質的調查，所以地質調查已經開始了，而且調查到一半，如果按照我們傅崐萁委員版本裡面寫的「立即啟動可行性評估」，這個會有衝突啦！應該是先完成地質調查報告，以它作為基礎，可行性評估才能進行，其實我們這個提案也不是反對，這個臨時提案的內容是說先完成地質調查及踏勘研究，因為它已進行到一半了，政府已經花錢花到一半了，你現在突然間要求它立即啟動可行性評估，我們認為這樣有所衝突，所以才提出這樣一個臨時提案。以上補充。"],["主席：請素月委員。"],["陳委員素月：謝謝主席。針對國道六號東延花蓮建設案，我們的提案事實上不是在反對這個建設，因為我們知道重大交通建設不是一蹴可幾的，然後也需要長時間的推動，所以剛剛林國成委員的發言，我也深表贊同，就是不能政治凌駕專業，真的！我們要尊重專業，所以這個地質調查、踏勘就是專業，而且交通部也不是沒有在處理這個案子，目前是在進行中，就是在進行地質調查及踏勘的研究，所以我們是不是就按照程序來走，讓這個重大交通建設的推動能夠更順暢而且更周延，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝素月委員。素月委員等一下，早上蔡副院長講我們要尊重憲法，對不對？像馬祖那邊的大橋，副院長，我跟你報告一下，馬祖大橋可行性評估也過了，綜合規劃也出來了，技術也沒問題，預算也沒問題，錢就是不給啊！這是什麼？這是政治凌駕專業，這個才叫政治凌駕專業，剛才已經講了，我也不想再講了，而且傅崐萁委員也沒有提到要多少錢，也沒有說一定要幹什麼，只是希望政府重視一下，是不是？","請林國成委員發言。"],["林委員國成：我想民進黨提這個案子，我個人的看法當然是OK啦！是不是在最後那三段，我建議比較綜合性地尊重交通部這裡的作業，因為後面那兩段我認為應該、一定要做，所以有沒有可能要求交通部的這個部分改為「建請交通部」或後面再加一個「研議」，這個問題就由交通部他們去做評估，有沒有可能這樣做呢？這個提案當然是沒有問題，能不能「要求」改為「建議」？這樣可能比較柔性一點。因為你們提了這些，最後則是由交通部他們來做後面這些動作，所以我是建議這樣，請大家參考看看。"],["主席：「要求」改為「建請」，行不行？"],["何委員欣純：好。"],["林委員國成：還有交通部「研議」。"],["主席：改為「爰建請交通部研議」……"],["傅委員崐萁：主席……"],["主席：請傅崐萁委員。"],["傅委員崐萁：提案人做一個說明，剛剛誠如主席所講的，馬祖大橋可行性研究通過了，所有程序都完備了，但是沒有錢，因為不願意編列，也誠如剛剛主席在詢答的時候有問到，鄭天財委員詢答時也有提到，2008年5月20號國民黨執政，2年8個月之後，完成可行性研究，完成所有的程序，在2011年1月29號動工，2年8個月蘇花改動工，從可行性研究、綜合規劃、環境影響評估、預算編列全部完成。","我們再轉頭回來看一下，國道六號2020年3月4號在本委員會就已經通過，要進行地質調查探勘，到今天部長表示，2026年年底地質調查才可以完成，一個地質調查總共要6年9個月，還不要想後面的可行性研究，其實提這個案子我想大家都很清楚，裡面都是交通部原本就知道它該怎麼做的，光提這個案子，本席現在是覺得都尊重啦！但是對這整個開發有什麼實質的意義？就只有看到民進黨政府的行政效率，6年9個月才能夠把地質探勘完成，後面的可行性研究，可能再搞10年，所以如果今天這個決議通過的話，以後它就照這個立法院的決議，再搞個15年，15年之後可行性研究才通過，其實我們這個案子裡面已經沒有提到預算了，如果政府要編列就編列，沒有編列的話，發國內或國際的BOT。BOT的話，國際的企業集團，像日本到東南亞做了這麼多的ODA，做了這麼多的PPP，都可以來做，美國、歐洲都可以來做，都很快！不像我們一個地質探勘要6年9個月，我們當然瞭解這個提案的用意是什麼，但是在提案的時候有沒有想一下，將心比心，為什麼那個地方的人要走這樣的路？這次台8線埋掉這麼多人，十幾條人命在台8線裡面，難道還喚不醒大家的一點同理心嗎？這個案子本身我是持反對的態度。"],["主席：三黨的意見都不一樣。"],["林委員俊憲：主席，請交通部回答一下，剛剛傅崐萁委員提的是有一點落差，交通部的資料是112年12月14號才開始地質調查，地質調查不是要6年9個月，如果以預計的115年完成，應該是3年，所以請交通部回答一下。"],["主席：交通部請回答一下。"],["王部長國材：我們是去年12月委託出去，是2023年12月到2026年12月，所以是3年，就這3年裡面，包括地質調查跟路廊的踏勘，就是怎麼樣找到一條好的路廊。事實上，這個做好以後，後面的可行性也就比較容易了，所以我是覺得這個過程當中，因為這個地方過去的確有相當多環境跟地質的課題，我是覺得就3年的時間趕快把它做出一個結論。"],["主席：請鄭天財委員發言。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：臺灣重大的交通建設，不是第一次，我一再的跟交通部提到，北迴鐵路民國六十幾年開始做，它的難度絕對不會比國道六號延伸到花蓮來得難，那個更難啦！北迴鐵路不是公路、不是高速公路，是鐵路！所以要不要做而已，這個地質調查、踏勘本來就會做，為什麼這個時候要提這樣的案？這才是一個我們要去思考的，本來就要做，北迴鐵路要開闢，它不做地質調查、踏勘研究嗎？蘇花改要做、要興建的時候，它不做地質調查、踏勘研究嗎？都有做！本來就要做！這個時候為什麼要提？這個時候為什麼要提？重點在這裡啊！重點在這裡！本來就要做，重點是為什麼這個時候要提？對不對？本來就要做啊！"],["何委員欣純：要做就要同意。"],["主席：鄭委員……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個時候提……這個才是政治的……"],["主席：鄭委員，這個扯不完的，因為國民黨有國民黨的意見，民進黨的委員同意林國成委員修正的意見，但國民黨不同意，我看就表決吧！是不是？同意不同意表決？同意不同意表決？要不要表決？要嗎？"],["何委員欣純：這有什麼好表決的？"],["主席：不然怎麼辦？"],["何委員欣純：本來就要做，那就同意……"],["主席：不然就一直扯！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：本來就要做就不要提，我的意思是就不要提了，提了反而是有政治的考量。"],["蔡委員其昌：兇什麼！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我沒有兇，我是大聲而已。"],["主席：好，工作人員發點涼茶給他們喝，情緒不要激動！不是啦！就這麼一個案子，大家緩和一點！都是立法院的好同事嘛！","國民黨委員是不是同意民進黨委員這個提案？同意不同意？"],["何委員欣純：「建請」啊！「建請」已經很緩和了。"],["蔡委員其昌：只是「建請」，也要反對？"],["主席：不然就只有表決了，對不對？我們就採民主的方式，因為我們後面還有案子要處理。","我看表決前就先清點人數好了。","（清點人數）"],["主席：在場出席委員13人，不包含主席，已足法定人數。","現在進行表決，贊成這個提案的，請舉手。","（進行表決）"],["主席：贊成者6人。","反對者，請舉手。","（進行表決）"],["主席：反對者7人。","反對者多數，本案不通過。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢。作以下的決定：一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員林憶君、黃仁、許智傑、陳培瑜、沈伯洋所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，並刊登公報。三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請交通部儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃仁","許智傑","陳培瑜","沈伯洋"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1133001_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.30034375,"end":5.414093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.308468750000001,"end":8.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.25284375,"end":17.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.01971875,"end":22.356593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.10784375,"end":21.293468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.32721875,"end":21.614093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.01471875,"end":24.465968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.309718750000002,"end":26.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.95909375,"end":29.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.69721875,"end":30.524093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.64221875,"end":32.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.51096875,"end":37.172843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.30784375,"end":40.986593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.13846875,"end":42.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.94409375,"end":46.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.60596875,"end":48.664718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.33971875,"end":54.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.735343750000006,"end":57.82784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.99659375,"end":67.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.62784375000001,"end":71.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.10409375,"end":73.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.99409375,"end":74.56784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.90534375,"end":96.47159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.24846875,"end":93.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.36596875000001,"end":98.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.15034375,"end":104.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.82471875,"end":116.48534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.95784375000001,"end":119.01659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.35409375,"end":125.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.15471875000001,"end":133.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.76534375,"end":136.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.85346875000002,"end":146.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.29909375,"end":148.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.56471875,"end":149.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.62346875,"end":151.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.41221875000002,"end":153.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.75784375,"end":157.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.86284375,"end":175.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.02034375000002,"end":177.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.23096875000002,"end":184.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.08221875,"end":187.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.00159375,"end":189.09846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.57096875000002,"end":192.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.22034375,"end":233.74971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.78346875000003,"end":233.80034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.83409375000002,"end":234.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.03659375,"end":234.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.07034375,"end":235.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.33159375000002,"end":238.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.81221875000003,"end":255.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.85596875000002,"end":267.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.71909375,"end":273.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.32159375000003,"end":275.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.34221875000003,"end":277.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.20284375,"end":291.66471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.332,"end":32.234,"text":"好,署長請部長今天在質詢你啊心裡面有依依不捨在我個人不管是當議員到當立委來我看到的講求專業的是王國材這不是拍馬屁是因為我私底下請教你"},{"start":33.567,"end":54.42,"text":"我比較質問的就傅崐萁總召提出花蓮的有兩個案、三個案我就看本會同仁一直在批評這個批評那個但是我私底下請教你你確確實實覺得花蓮的交通是要解決的"},{"start":55.782,"end":67.195,"text":"可是我們今天說實在的你專業走了以後又來換一個政治那就更糟糕更糟糕所以我還是要呼籲未來的賴政府"},{"start":68.666,"end":93.734,"text":"交通的事情是要用交通解決不是用政治解決所以我還是真的蠻希望下一屆的部長真的最少要像王國材這樣講專業再講政治不要先講政治再來講專業所以本席雖有依依不捨但是就事論事還是要來談國道六號的問題"},{"start":97.438,"end":116.172,"text":"我們為什麼不想一想我們從南投到花蓮花蓮到南投本來是20公里而已你偏偏的一定要繞了350公里才可以到花蓮才可以到南投"},{"start":117.94,"end":146.477,"text":"請何以堪呢?藍島也是人耶!花蓮也是人耶!在台北、在地下都都是人耶!台灣人民那為什麼要不同的待遇?就是因為有政治力的介入所以我就感覺到很奇怪啊建設都不談專業先談政治再來談專業這個本末倒置基本上本席是非常不贊同的"},{"start":147.352,"end":153.716,"text":"另外一個,部長你有沒有想一想為什麼他們一直要提這個案?"},{"start":155.03,"end":184.25,"text":"這個也是被你們逼的啦三十年以來你們說要做我不管是梳化膏、梳化什麼、梳化鐵或者國道六號欸!都被你們騙到這陣子已經三十年了耶住在花東地區的人住在沿線的人我跟你說剛才我看到傅君祺總召在播放那些東西我就瞬間有一個想法如果"},{"start":185.15,"end":209.677,"text":"那個石頭扎下來是我或者親人你情何以堪你心裡面有什麼感覺如果你們在做專業判定的時候你們如果有這種心情我認為這個問題就很快解決啊不是嗎所以真的將心比心三十年以來你們大家都專家都在做價位都政治臨界與專業這不好"},{"start":211.337,"end":237.852,"text":"所以最後啦也有人在講啊說啊這我今天開三千億啊開三千億啊問題不解決開三兆也是一樣啊沒有問題沒有解決你花一塊錢都是浪費公帑所以三千億不要再講另外一個就說啊那裡啊岩石啊地震啊什麼東西我跟你講啦部長技術啊現在都可以突破"},{"start":238.872,"end":254.758,"text":"不要用台灣人民的想法我坦白跟你講任何再困難的技術都有辦法去處理所以我說實在啦我住在台北我本身病棟人當然跟我無關可是我就看不過去嘛"},{"start":257.103,"end":274.31,"text":"所以我希望雖然依依不捨但是你有這功能行為我希望下一屆的部長不要再政治臨駕專業啦所以博弈我要拜託啦你不用答號啦因為你答號心裡話你不敢講啦政治臨駕專業我還是要呼籲"},{"start":277.312,"end":290.143,"text":"專業很重要不要用政治臨界專業所以拜託這個案件該做的就要做這是本市對交通部所有的人員一個啟示啦好你也不用打抱啦謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151328","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151328","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627f1337983b89e93c60e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c94f774445f8f1023ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"13:01:10 - 13:08:07","影片長度":"00:06:57","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":417,"end_time":"2024-04-17T13:08:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T13:01:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":598,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（13時1分）謝謝主席，麻煩請王部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["王部長國材：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本來想是不是還有機會，在明年本席回交通委員會的時候能夠看到您，但是看起來說不定你還有新的職務安排，是不是？"],["王部長國材：沒有！沒有！"],["洪委員孟楷：目前有沒有新的職務安排？"],["王部長國材：沒有！完全沒有！"],["洪委員孟楷：也沒有人徵詢過你？"],["王部長國材：沒有！都沒有！"],["洪委員孟楷：那之後呢？"],["王部長國材：休息一下！好久沒休息了。"],["洪委員孟楷：應該沒有考慮要退休吧？"],["王部長國材：那也可以，我覺得也可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，說實在話，本席一直在強調交通就是要專業，也因此用專業的態度、作為，每一天都可以為國家來做事。交通部跟外交部也不一樣，我覺得交通部長不好做，一個事情發生了，部長可能就要為此負起責任，但我們看到外交部長在斷了8個邦交國後都可以不用下臺，這也是非常離譜跟滑稽的事情。","我現在想要請教的是，針對這一次花蓮地震，4月10號有巨石入侵到我們的鐵軌，其實這個議題我覺得一直都是一個老問題，但是到底我們臺鐵或是我們交通部有沒有跟國人說明清楚或是說實話？當初0402發生太魯閣號事件的時候，我們那時候也說要有邊坡防護跟軌道入侵警示的系統，當時你們不是也跟我們說要花20億來建置相關的一個系統，那個時候是要人給人、要錢給錢，我們也全力支持，怎麼會這一次又再發生巨石撞擊造成普悠瑪號出軌，然後才發現原來那個地方根本沒有裝警告系統？"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，太魯閣號事件以後，我們做了26處，後來我們發覺不夠，而現在經費也有了，所以要做38處，應該是……"],["洪委員孟楷：我覺得是這樣子，部長，能不能告訴國人一下，我們的鐵道路線裡面，有多少公里、長度，到底有多少比例是有含括在鐵道入侵系統？這是什麼意思？你跟我講26處，它到底是一個點、一個範圍還是一個路段？"],["王部長國材：一個範圍。"],["洪委員孟楷：那個範圍到底含括到多少面積？因為看起來當時說的26處可能把臺灣大部分危險的範圍都含括進去。現在又再來一個落石之後，你說我們26處不夠，要增加38處，這不就讓大家覺得當初太魯閣號事件時所做的都是玩假的嗎？如果你也認為那38處是重要的，為什麼當初沒有把它編列進去？當初就應該是26加38啊！你現在26處做完了，大家以為沒有問題了、以為安全了，結果又發生了落石入侵，你才跟我講還要再38處。我希望不要再有下一次，畢竟會不會下一次再出現之後，變成26處不夠、38處不夠，還要再72處？這是用喊的嗎？"],["王部長國材：26處是依據當時太魯閣號在清水隧道裡面的狀況，跟它類似的就把它裝上去了，但後來我們覺得不夠，所以又加了38處，現在正在進行。"],["洪委員孟楷：不夠是因為這一次有落石，而且這一次落石好加在沒有造成這種慘案、這種傷亡。"],["王部長國材：我是覺得這38處要加速來做，另外就是……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候可以做好？"],["杜董事長微：這38處最終在明年中做好。"],["洪委員孟楷：預計要花多少錢？"],["杜董事長微：38處的話，這可能要查一下，我查一下後再跟委員報告。"],["王部長國材：我跟委員補充，就是做了26處後我們覺得不夠，所以再增加38處，就這一次在花蓮八百多次的主餘震，我們是覺得整個地質，尤其這次是公路邊坡的石頭掉到鐵路的邊坡，然後再掉到鐵軌上，所以我們覺得這兩個單位未來在邊坡的部分，比如說臺鐵認為它邊坡那個地方是穩定的，結果這次是上面公路的邊坡的石頭掉下來，所以我們是覺得這個也要把它加進去考量。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，當時我們談太魯閣號事件的時候，就說臺鐵跟高鐵最大不同是高鐵沿線、全線都有鐵道入侵警示系統，臺鐵是沒有的，所以我們才會說臺鐵是不是也應該加速來裝置，當時也是期待是不是全線也都裝，當然有一些路段可能相對來講真的經評估後是沒有必要所以沒有裝，可是至少我們也認為你應該要提出來，尤其這攸關生命財產安全，沒有人會反對，你之前裝26處花了多少錢？"],["杜董事長微：26處大概接近4億。"],["洪委員孟楷：現在38處呢？"],["杜董事長微：38處是6.1億。"],["洪委員孟楷：加起來不過10億。我講不客氣的，當初太魯閣號事件發生之後，你跟我們講要20億、要30億，我們一定會同意，國人也一定會同意，因為這就是安全的問題，那個時候我們也都一直來授權，我們也是一直告訴交通部門、告訴臺鐵部門你們要提出來，我們真的希望太魯閣號事件是最後一次了……"],["王部長國材：瞭解。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們講26處要4億，結果現在又發生這個事情，真的是好加在沒有再發生……不然的話我們可能會講這除了是天災之外，也可能是人禍，未來38處裝完之後，還會不會再有需求？如果這只是38處6億的話，我真的建議，你們再多花一個月的時間，澈底的清查、澈底的瞭解，你說38處，甚至講72處，我相信交通委員會、我相信我們黨團也一定都會支持，不要每一次都是說一套、做一套，頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，這就很典型的頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳。"],["王部長國材：洪委員，這次花蓮地震以後，事實上我也跟他們談過，如果要加經費，我們全力支持，我是覺得經過這個地震以後，它整個地質的狀況可能都改變了，可能要更廣的來看這個課題。"],["洪委員孟楷：真的要讓國人安心、安全，我希望這是王國材部長任內要離開前，真的為國人留下一個好一點的回憶，好不好？謝謝。"],["王部長國材：好，我們全力以赴。謝謝"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","下一位請張宏陸委員發言，張宏陸，張宏陸不在。","請張嘉郡委員發言，張嘉郡，張嘉郡不在。","請林憶君委員發言，林憶君，林憶君不在。","請羅明才委員發言，羅明才，羅明才不在。","請林國成委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃仁","許智傑","陳培瑜","沈伯洋"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1133001_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.1953437500000001,"end":1.7353437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.384718750000001,"end":4.705343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.941593750000001,"end":7.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.113468750000003,"end":21.985343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.132843750000003,"end":25.090343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.27596875,"end":25.832843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.883468750000002,"end":30.574718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.03096875,"end":28.094093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.80284375,"end":29.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.199093750000003,"end":31.215968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.215968750000002,"end":31.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.90784375,"end":31.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.05971875,"end":32.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.66284375,"end":35.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.78909375,"end":36.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.07596875,"end":38.033468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.674718750000004,"end":40.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.49721875,"end":40.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.64909375,"end":40.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.189093750000005,"end":41.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.08346875,"end":42.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.40409375,"end":43.821593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.97346875,"end":52.782218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.782218750000006,"end":53.018468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.018468750000004,"end":56.98409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.13596875,"end":58.924718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.48159375,"end":68.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.71221875,"end":77.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.65159375,"end":87.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.25346875000001,"end":89.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.97034375000001,"end":106.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.73159375,"end":121.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.95284375000001,"end":130.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.11596875,"end":132.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.77409375000002,"end":132.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.24659375000002,"end":140.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.15659375,"end":143.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.56971875000002,"end":148.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.59846875000002,"end":149.52659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.62346875,"end":152.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.49221875,"end":154.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.21346875,"end":157.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.57596875000002,"end":158.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.68971875,"end":175.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.47596875000002,"end":187.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.57534375,"end":194.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.76409375,"end":198.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.86534375000002,"end":196.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.44721875000002,"end":198.76784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.76784375000003,"end":204.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.39971875,"end":205.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.41659375,"end":215.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.65284375000002,"end":206.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.15346875,"end":221.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.02596875,"end":226.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.91596875000002,"end":226.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.05471875,"end":226.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.39221875,"end":226.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.49346875,"end":226.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.57784375000003,"end":226.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.66221875000002,"end":226.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.72971875000002,"end":226.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.96596875,"end":227.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.32034375,"end":233.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.65346875,"end":229.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.09221875,"end":229.14284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.14284375000003,"end":229.96971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.96971875000003,"end":230.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.46721875,"end":232.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.96909375,"end":235.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.01096875000002,"end":236.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.02784375000002,"end":238.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.69409375,"end":239.70659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.72784375,"end":240.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.87096875,"end":244.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.00534375,"end":248.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.83596875,"end":248.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.85284375,"end":249.39284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.39284375000003,"end":249.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.56159375000001,"end":251.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.62034375000002,"end":261.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.99846875000003,"end":268.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.57971875000004,"end":278.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.31221875,"end":283.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.63221875,"end":283.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.13846875,"end":303.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.32096875,"end":306.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.95784375,"end":306.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.17721875,"end":313.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.72034375000004,"end":315.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.26409375000003,"end":322.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.79534375000003,"end":320.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.31846875,"end":321.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.93409375000005,"end":324.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.85346875000005,"end":326.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.72659375,"end":333.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.71721875000003,"end":337.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.20596875,"end":347.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.70221875000004,"end":352.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.02221875000004,"end":361.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.66221875,"end":365.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.67846875000004,"end":367.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.02409375,"end":374.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.14534375000005,"end":381.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.94596875,"end":382.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.08096875,"end":382.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.46909375,"end":388.22346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.57784375,"end":388.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.89846875,"end":396.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.32346875,"end":404.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.32221875000005,"end":407.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.19096875,"end":416.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.51034375,"end":416.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.97846875000005,"end":417.97409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.008,"end":29.899,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請王部長部長請好部長好部長本來想說是不是還有機會明年本期回交通委員會的時候能夠看到您那但是看起來說不定你還有新的職務安排啦是不是沒有沒有目前有沒有新的職務安排沒有沒有完全沒有那也沒有人徵詢過你"},{"start":31.226,"end":52.38,"text":"沒有都沒有那之後勒我休息一下休息一下好久沒休息了應該沒有考慮要退休吧那也可以我覺得也可以部長本席說實在話一直在強調交通就是要專業也因此用專業的態度做為每一天都可以為國家來做事"},{"start":53.16,"end":76.671,"text":"那交通部跟外交部也不一樣啦其實我覺得交通部長不好做一個事情發生部長可能就要有負起責任我們看外交部說斷了8個邦交國都可以不用下台這也是非常離譜跟滑稽的事情那我現在比較想請教的是說針對這一次的花蓮地震4月10號有巨石入侵到我們這個鐵軌"},{"start":78.7,"end":104.402,"text":"其實這個議題我覺得一直都是一個老問題但是到底我們台鐵或是說到底我們交通部有沒有跟國人說明清楚到底說實話04、02那時候這個泰魯格號的時候就已經有講了我們那時候也講說邊坡的一個防護跟這個軌道入侵的系統那當時不是也跟我們講是說要花20億來建置相關的一個費用相關的一個系統"},{"start":106.784,"end":120.933,"text":"那那個時候要人給人、要錢給錢我們也全力支持那怎麼會這一次又再發生巨石撞擊出軌、捕悠瑪號巨石撞擊出軌然後才質疑說原來那個地方根本沒有警告系統沒有裝這個警告系統"},{"start":121.994,"end":149.241,"text":"現在那個公委報告以後我們做26處啦那後來我們發覺不夠所以他現在有一個經委也有要做38處那應該是我覺得這樣子喔部長能不能告訴國人一下全我們鐵道的路線裡面我們有多少這個公里長度那我們比例到底有多少是有含瓜在這個路徑鐵道路徑系統"},{"start":150.683,"end":172.657,"text":"什麼意思?你跟我們講26處他到底是一個點一個範圍還是一個路段一個範圍是 那個範圍到底有沒有含刮到多少面積因為其實你這樣看起來我們那時候一直講到26處我們當時候講說26處可能把台灣大部分這種危險的範圍都把它含刮進去那你現在又在一個落實之後你來講是說我們26處不夠要增加38處"},{"start":176.513,"end":193.563,"text":"那不就是當初泰魯格號事件的時候就讓大家覺得是玩假的嗎?如果你那個38處也認為是說是重要的那為什麼在當初沒有把它編列?當初就應該是26加38啊那你現在26處做完了大家以為沒有問題了以為安全了結果又發生了落實"},{"start":195.475,"end":197.517,"text":"二十六數是當時看就是用太魯閣在這個清水隧道裡面這個狀況跟他類似的就把它裝了"},{"start":215.293,"end":240.053,"text":"然後後來我們覺得這個不夠所以又加了這個38處現在在進行那不夠是因為這一次有落實而且這一次落實好加債好加債沒有造成這種慘案這種傷亡38處要很加速來做那另外就是說什麼時候可以做好這38處最終在明年中明年中預計要花多少錢"},{"start":241.339,"end":261.03,"text":"三十八處的話大概這可能要查一下我查一下這跟委員報告好不好我跟委員補充啦就是說二十六處崔義雄做了奧米斯節不過三十八處這一次在花蓮的這個八百多次的組"},{"start":262.051,"end":262.071,"text":" ﹏部長"},{"start":285.493,"end":312.484,"text":"當時我們講特魯哥號的時候就講說台鐵跟高鐵最大不同是高鐵他沿線全線都有鐵道路徑系統嘛警示系統那台鐵沒有嘛所以我們才會講是說那是不是台鐵應該也要加速來裝置當時也是期待是說是不是全線也要裝那當然有一些路段可能相對來講是可能真的評估沒有必要所以沒有裝可是至少我們也認為是說你應該要建機就建機尤其這是生命財產安全沒有人會反對"},{"start":313.766,"end":336.339,"text":"那你之前26處裝多少錢26處大概接近4億4億那現在38處38處是6.1億6.1億加起來不過10億我講不客氣的你當初泰魯格號事件發生之後你跟我們講要21要31我們一定也會同意國人也一定會同意因為什麼這個就是安全問題"},{"start":338.24,"end":349.245,"text":"但那個時候我們也都一直授權我們也是一直要告訴交通部門告訴台鐵部門講說提出來我們希望泰魯格號就最後一次了那結果你們講26億26處4億"},{"start":353.289,"end":381.412,"text":"結果現在又發生這個事情真的是很好家再沒有再發生不然的話我們講是說這除了天災以外這可能是人禍那未來38處裝完之後還會不會有需求如果說這只是6億38處是6億那我真的建議你們再多花一個月的時間徹底的清查徹底的去了解你說38處我甚至講72處我相信交通委員會我相信我們黨團一定都會支持"},{"start":382.694,"end":387.302,"text":"不要每一次都是說一動、做一動、頭痛一頭、腳痛一腳 這就很典型的頭痛一頭、腳痛一腳"},{"start":388.558,"end":415.789,"text":"好,這個宏偉我覺得這次花蓮地震以後我事實上已經跟他們談過了如果要加金會我們全力支持我是覺得經過這個地震以後他的整個這個地質的狀況都變得改變了啦他可能要更廣來看這個課題真的讓國人安心、安全我希望這次王國材部長任內要離開前真的為國人留下一個好一點的這個回憶好不好好,謝謝好,謝謝宏偉"}]}},{"id":"151327","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151327","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627d002a7e54604ee920e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c942a5e3ee0d4b51e7c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:55:43 - 13:00:58","影片長度":"00:05:15","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":315,"end_time":"2024-04-17T13:00:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:55:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":580,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時56分）主席，請部長、公路總局陳局長。"],["主席：請部長、陳局長。"],["王部長國材：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長、局長，還有交通部的所有官員。我們回顧一下蘇花改。部長，這次蘇花改在0403地震都沒有怎麼樣吧？"],["王部長國材：沒錯。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：當時蘇花改路段是先做以前災害比較多，對人員安全造成傷害比較多的，沒有錯吧？"],["王部長國材：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以當初是先做比較困難的，且當時交通部部長毛治國還親自到環保署，因為當時是由環保署負責有關環評的部分。我們來看蘇花改，民國97年11月10日行政院核定可行性研究，兩年多之後就動工了，即100年1月29日，兩年多就動工了，當時是先做比較困難的。至於蘇花安，108年由行政院核定，然後開始進入環評，從108年行政院核定可行性研究到現在，你們本來預估111年進入環評，結果交通部一直到去年，也就是112年11月21日才送到環境部。環境部在今年3月20日召開環評會議，但初審很有意見！這部分我上次也跟次長講了，交通部公路總局要跟環評委員說明狀況，因為環評委員換了，以前跟現在的都不一樣。蘇花安沒有通過很奇怪，所以這部分要說明清楚，尤其當他們有疑慮時，可以給他們看南迴公路，南迴公路也是往海邊蓋，也有啊，而蘇花安有一部分也是這樣，所以要讓他們清楚知道，以前能通過，為什麼現在不能過？要去說服！至於說服的方式就是用事實來證明，可以嗎？"],["王部長國材：由於2月的審查小組有意見，所以我們原來預計5月底送進去，但現在4月底就送進去了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：要提早送。"],["王部長國材：的確，蘇花路廊因為在太魯閣國家公園，所以要求做四季環評，因此有一年時間被拖在環評上。但我認為這是目前花蓮、臺東最重要的一條路，我們必須加速來進行。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，確實應該要加速進行，而且一定要把它說明清楚，讓他們去瞭解，還可以有一個案例，那是什麼案例？北迴鐵路1980年2月1號正式通車典禮，部長也清楚嘛！北迴鐵路這次0403地震，凌晨經過檢視之後就安全了，都沒有怎麼樣就通車了，對不對？4月4號的凌晨就通車了，北迴鐵路就是一個很好的案例，所以這個部分就是要讓環評人員瞭解。"],["王部長國材：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：當初就是6年工期，我們現在會覺得汗顏！所以這個部分一定要請交通部、公路總局，把這些實際的案例讓環評人員瞭解，能夠快速的通過，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好，OK。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃仁","許智傑","陳培瑜","沈伯洋"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1133001_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.53471875,"end":17.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.04909375,"end":19.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.06596875,"end":19.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.96846875,"end":22.035968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.24534375,"end":32.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.40971875,"end":33.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.07596875,"end":37.071593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.20659375,"end":41.205968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.197843750000004,"end":40.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.509718750000005,"end":42.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.525968750000004,"end":46.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.11659375,"end":55.212218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.735343750000006,"end":56.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.25409375,"end":58.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.51534375000001,"end":62.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.869718750000004,"end":60.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.282843750000005,"end":62.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.68346875,"end":64.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.18534375,"end":67.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.46346875,"end":68.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.24784375,"end":71.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.49221875,"end":81.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.42034375,"end":74.16284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.49159375,"end":76.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.08596875,"end":80.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.41471875,"end":85.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.00471875000001,"end":90.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.49784375,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.20659375000001,"end":93.13034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.61971875,"end":96.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.11284375000001,"end":99.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.04909375000001,"end":101.33159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.17534375000001,"end":104.31846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.02721875,"end":105.93846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.27596875,"end":106.81596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.37284375,"end":109.14471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.75221875000001,"end":110.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.12346875,"end":111.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.13159375000001,"end":113.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.22846875,"end":117.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.56096875,"end":120.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.08784375,"end":122.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.10034375000001,"end":126.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.62284375,"end":127.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.38221875000002,"end":129.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.13721875000002,"end":131.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.44909375,"end":133.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.35596875000002,"end":138.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.51971875,"end":139.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.02596875,"end":143.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.51471875000001,"end":146.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.06721875,"end":146.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.33721875,"end":147.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.58596875,"end":151.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.24784375000002,"end":151.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.28159375,"end":151.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.73721875,"end":153.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.96471875,"end":157.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.35221875000002,"end":159.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.32659375,"end":160.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.89596875,"end":162.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.36409375000002,"end":164.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.82784375,"end":167.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.78534375,"end":168.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.28284375,"end":170.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.58221875,"end":172.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.96596875,"end":177.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.28159375,"end":179.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.17159375,"end":183.17534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.79971875,"end":185.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.67284375,"end":186.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.29284375,"end":189.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.24596875,"end":191.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.54096875000002,"end":194.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.25784375,"end":195.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.47284375,"end":197.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.94096875000002,"end":206.42909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.00284375,"end":208.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.39909375000002,"end":212.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.99346875,"end":213.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.52909375000002,"end":217.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.02659375000002,"end":217.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.34284375000001,"end":218.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.35971875,"end":241.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.43409375000002,"end":229.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.20409375000003,"end":245.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.47346875000002,"end":250.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.48971875,"end":253.18971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.40909375,"end":254.91096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.85596875000002,"end":257.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.55596875000003,"end":259.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.42909375,"end":263.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.19221875,"end":265.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.68971875,"end":267.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.52909375,"end":269.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.75659375000004,"end":272.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.99659375000005,"end":274.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.32971875000004,"end":278.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.36284375,"end":280.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.71284375,"end":281.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.84346875,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.96534375000005,"end":285.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.06221875,"end":287.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.74534375,"end":291.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.91784375000003,"end":292.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.30596875000003,"end":292.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.96409375,"end":293.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.63471875000005,"end":297.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.89159375,"end":298.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.78596875,"end":300.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.18221875,"end":302.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.85284375000003,"end":304.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.19846875,"end":307.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.47221875,"end":308.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.60284375000003,"end":312.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.60659375,"end":313.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.12971875,"end":313.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.19721875000005,"end":313.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.21409375,"end":313.92284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.065,"end":16.967,"text":"還沒有?還沒有?"},{"start":38.284,"end":61.409,"text":"主席、部長、公路總局局長還有我們交通部的所有的官員我們去回顧一下蘇花改部長這次蘇花改這個零四零三地震都沒有怎麼樣嗎?蘇花改"},{"start":65.98,"end":85.319,"text":"當時蘇花蓮的路段是先做以前災害比較多比較容易然後對人員的安全會比較傷害比較多的先做沒有錯吧所以這個當初都是比較困難的先做了"},{"start":87.783,"end":102.481,"text":"當時我們交通部部長毛志國部長親自到這個環保署當時是環保署有關環評的部分我們看這個書法改民國97年11月10號"},{"start":105.126,"end":131.285,"text":"行政院合定這個可行性的研究兩年多之後就動工了有沒有一百年一月二十九號兩年多就動工了當時是比較困難的好這個書花案一百零八年行政院合定行政院合定然後開始進入環評整個"},{"start":134.397,"end":159.188,"text":"一百零八年行政院核定可行性研究到現在你們本來預估一百一十一年進入環評結果交通部一直到去年一百一十二年十一月二十一號才送到環境部然後環境部在今年的三月二十號召開環評會議出審還有意見"},{"start":163.647,"end":191.227,"text":"所以這個部分我上次也跟次長講了交通部公務總局要跟環評委員因為環評委員換了跟以前的跟現在的不一樣要跟他們說明了蘇阿改的狀況跟現在蘇阿安這個時候沒有通過很奇怪所以這個部分要把它說明清楚尤其他們也有疑慮"},{"start":192.571,"end":216.981,"text":"你就給他看南迴公路有沒有南迴公路也是往海邊去蓋的也有啊這個因為說要改說要安也有嘛有一部分是這樣要讓他清楚知道以前都通過為什麼現在不能過要說服說服的方式就是用事實來讓他證明"},{"start":218.41,"end":245.291,"text":"可以嗎?現在二月的小組有意見。他是原來跟我們講五月底送進去。我們現在四月底就要送進去了。要提早送。那的確這個蘇哈路廊因為在太魯閣國家公園他要求四季的環評。所以有一年的時間在這個環評被拖到這個時間。但是我覺得這個是目前我認為在花蓮台東最重要的一條路。我們必須加速來進行。"},{"start":247.417,"end":271.035,"text":"對,確實應該要加速地來進行而且要一定要去把它說明清楚讓他們去了解還可以有個案例是什麼案例北回鐵路1980年2月1號正式通車典禮部長也清楚嗎北回鐵路這一次0403地震"},{"start":274.062,"end":297.462,"text":"凌晨就經過檢視檢視之後就安全了都沒有怎麼樣就通車了嘛對不對4月4號的凌晨就通車了給個鐵路這個就是很好的案例所以這個部分的就是要讓環評人員那個瞭解當初啊你看6年就工期6年工期啊"},{"start":298.837,"end":313.311,"text":"我們現在會覺得汗顏啊所以這個部分一定要請交通部國務總局把這些實際的案例讓環評人員了解能夠快速的通過好不好好OK好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151324","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151324","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f0162745c43010b8326f690e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c941d216fa11ae63dd35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"12:50:12 - 12:55:30","影片長度":"00:05:18","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":318,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:55:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:50:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":554,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（12時50分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["王部長國材：邱委員好。"],["邱委員若華：部長好，辛苦了。本席上個月25號在交通委員會質詢的時候，有提到花東地區的居民渴望一條安全回家的路，花東地區的居民也需要帶動地方發展的重大建設，花東的交通在這次0403之後，也讓原本的蘇花公路成為重災區，數百次的餘震還有落石不斷，重創花東的交通，那花蓮和臺東的居民還有很多民眾都想要知道，究竟何時可以給花東地區安全、可靠、快速的交通系統？","王部長，您也在本月11號受訪的時候說到，現在花蓮最重要的就是蘇花安的建設，讓整條蘇花公路變得安全。本席要請教部長，要如何全力加速蘇花公路安全計畫？環評初審如果通過，可以確保2026年開始動工、2032年完工？"],["王部長國材：是，跟委員報告，的確整個……你看這一次的下清水橋，就是在我們蘇花安的和仁到崇德的那一段；這次石頭掉到我們鐵路的部分，在和平跟和中段，這個都是蘇花安的範圍，然後大家知道這次蘇花改的隧道完全無損，所以我個人覺得在過去做了三段，中間的現在把它連起來，這個應該是目前花東最重要一條建設。目前是這樣，環評在2月審查，小組有一些意見，我們這個月底會再送進去。我是有瞭解，好像他們5月會有個環評大會，如果可以的話，就按照這個行程來進行，就是以2032年（121年）完工當作我們最重要的目標。"],["邱委員若華：OK，好。","4月10號夜晚的時候，發生普悠瑪號在花蓮的和平站南端擦撞到地震落石，讓乘客飽受驚嚇。部長，我們臺鐵有臺鐵行車安全改善計畫，在這次花蓮大地震發生後，還有哪些部分需要再做加強，有沒有盤點？"],["王部長國材：在太魯閣事件以後，做了26處的落石告警的系統；現在還有一筆經費已經核定，就是再加38處，在明年以前會完工。我上次也提到因為花蓮地區主震跟餘震大概八百多次，它的整個地質可能都鬆動了，所以我有特別請臺鐵再評估，比如說在公路的下方，原來邊坡穩定的地方，但是上面不穩定，這時候要不要在它的鐵路邊坡做一些告警或是攔截的系統，我請他們提出來，如果提出來的話，我們會爭取來增加建置的地區。"],["邱委員若華：是，前面黃健豪委員有問到目前的審議進度，就是關於鐵路邊坡維護還有管理的草案，那本席想要問在公路還有國道、高鐵方面有沒有完善的相關規範？"],["王部長國材：縱然沒有規範，現在有規定在做了，只把是它做更完善，過去在邊坡規定定檢還有特別檢查等等的相關一些規定，這個修正的報告本來說要年底才有辦法審完，我看能不能再……"],["邱委員若華：再提早。"],["王部長國材：我們再加速。"],["邱委員若華：再加速，OK。","本席昨天到台7線40公里處的巴陵大橋進行會勘，因為遭坍塌的大石頭撞擊橋墩；我們也到台7線桃園通往宜蘭路上其中的一個大漢橋會勘，可以從簡報看到。北橫一帶是受遊客歡迎的景點，也要請交通部和相關單位檢視邊坡還有道路安全。台7線的大曼災害路段有設置如這個照片我們所看到的落石微地動的監測系統，要請教部長各地公路的設置情況如何？"],["王部長國材：請局長說明。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，這個部分是屬於委託陽明交大研究團隊一個試辦的計畫，因為大曼路段現在還在修復，所以通行的時候，畢竟它是一個大面積崩塌的路段，而這個是落石警告微地動系統，如果有落石的話就會有警示。主要是因為現在大曼路段還在修復，若通行過程中有低落石風險的話，會先有告警。如果這個試辦系統未來成效還不錯的話，我們也可以研議來推動。"],["邱委員若華：所以目前只有大曼路段使用這個系統？"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["邱委員若華：好，謝謝部長。"],["王部長國材：謝謝邱委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱若華委員的發言。","下一位請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃仁","許智傑","陳培瑜","沈伯洋"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1133001_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.2915937500000005,"end":8.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.89034375,"end":9.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.649093750000002,"end":26.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.800968750000003,"end":15.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.23784375,"end":34.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.94534375,"end":38.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.759093750000005,"end":58.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.65471875,"end":67.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.31159375,"end":68.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.37034375,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.02846875,"end":70.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.63596875,"end":70.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.83846875,"end":70.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.90596875,"end":71.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.22659375,"end":71.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.31096875,"end":75.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.64784375,"end":79.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.22096875000001,"end":87.02159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.47721875,"end":97.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.29409375,"end":99.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.72846875,"end":104.68971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.01034375,"end":108.30096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.57096875,"end":121.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.76721875000001,"end":133.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.55971875,"end":127.25159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.86659375000002,"end":142.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.04659375,"end":144.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.88596875000002,"end":167.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.46159375000002,"end":161.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.66721875000002,"end":169.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.79346875000002,"end":171.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.41346875000002,"end":175.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.35784375,"end":179.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.63159375,"end":188.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.17034375,"end":191.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.86596875,"end":202.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.35784375,"end":205.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.29846875,"end":212.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.11159375000003,"end":217.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.97159375,"end":219.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.31721875000002,"end":228.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.07159375,"end":227.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.52284375000002,"end":243.50346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.91784375,"end":238.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.00971875000002,"end":258.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.28159375,"end":264.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.08659375,"end":265.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.35659375,"end":278.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.84909375,"end":272.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.37221875,"end":273.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.02534375,"end":312.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.52221875000004,"end":316.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.06221875,"end":313.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.97346875,"end":315.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.58909375,"end":318.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.51721875000004,"end":317.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.78721875,"end":317.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.97284375000004,"end":318.69846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.311,"end":7.699,"text":"好謝謝主席有請部長"},{"start":13.846,"end":42.953,"text":"好,部長好辛苦了那本席在上個月的時候25號在交通委員會諮詢的時候有提到講到花東地區的居民渴望一條安全回家的路那花東地區的居民也需要帶動地方發展的重大建設那花東的交通在這次0403之後那也讓原本的蘇花公路成為重災區那數百次的余震還有落石不斷重創花東的交通那花蓮和台東的居民還有很多民眾都想要知道究竟何時可以給花東地區"},{"start":43.633,"end":66.307,"text":"安全可靠快速的交通系統那王部長您也在本月11號受訪的時候說到現在花蓮最重要的就是蘇花安的建設讓整條蘇花公路變得安全那本期要請教部長要如何全力加速蘇花公路安全計畫那環評出省若通過可以確保2026年開始動工"},{"start":69.449,"end":70.43,"text":"三二年、晚功。"},{"start":87.532,"end":107.786,"text":"然後這次大家知道說要改的這個說要完全無損所以我們是覺得我個人覺得在過去做了三段中間的現在把它連起來這個是應該是目前是一個花東最重要的一條建設那目前是這樣環評在二月審查小組有些意見我們現在這個月底會再送進去"},{"start":108.607,"end":127.994,"text":"那我是有了解好像他們午夜會有個環評大會如果可以的話就按照這個行程來進行就是以2032年、121年完工當我們最重要的目標OK好那4月10號的時候夜晚發生普悠瑪號在花蓮的和平站南端插撞到"},{"start":131.355,"end":142.021,"text":"地震落實讓乘客飽受驚嚇,部長這次我們台鐵有這個台鐵行車安全改善計畫在這次花蓮大地震發生後還有哪些部分需要再做加強有沒有盤點"},{"start":143.066,"end":159.921,"text":"他在太魯閣事件以後他是在做了26處的落實告警的系統那現在還有一筆經費已經核定就是再加38處那他是在明年以前會完工"},{"start":160.802,"end":175.34,"text":" 我上次提到就是說因為你這個花蓮地區大概主震跟移震800多次所以它的整個地質可能都鬆動了所以我有特別請這個台鐵在評估比如說在公路的下方"},{"start":176.34,"end":191.766,"text":" ）"},{"start":191.932,"end":217.475,"text":"是,那請問黃建豪委員有問到目前的那個審議進度就是關於鐵路邊坡維護還有管理的草案嘛,那本席想要問就是請問還有在公路還有國道高鐵方面有沒有完善的相關規範?他那個規範是重點沒有規範他現在有他的規定在做啦,現在是幫他做更完善就是說過去在邊坡就是規定這個定檢還有特別檢查等等的相關的一些規定"},{"start":218.095,"end":237.507,"text":"我們現在趕快就是這個修正的報告現在本來是說年底才有辦法審我看能不能再加速再加速OK好那本席昨天到台七線40公里處的八林大橋因為遭坍塌的大石頭撞擊橋墩那進行會刊"},{"start":238.968,"end":258.445,"text":"我們台七線也是桃園通往宜蘭路上的其中有一個大漢橋會館那可以從簡報看到那北橫一帶是受遊客歡迎的景點那也要請交通部和相關單位檢視邊坡還有道路安全那台七線的大漢災害路段有設置如這個照片我們所看到"},{"start":260.107,"end":277.949,"text":"若實為地動的監測系統,請教部長各地公路的設置情況如何?各位報告,因為這個部分的話是屬於就是說委託陽明交大研究團隊一個事辦的一個計畫那這一個部分的話就是因為大漫路段現在還在這一個修復"},{"start":279.21,"end":301.967,"text":"那所以就是說通行的時候畢竟就是說它是一個大面積的一個崩塌的一個路段所以只是就是說這個是一個就是說這個落實的一個這個為地動的一個系統那所以就是說如果說有落實的話就是說大概會有一些警示那不過就是說主要是因為說現在大漫路段還在修復可能在通行的過程中"},{"start":302.227,"end":319.053,"text":" ﹏﹏"}]}},{"id":"151320","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151320","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627d51877cc47d668fc0e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c94fae5102c225baa095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:45:06 - 12:49:49","影片長度":"00:04:43","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":283,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:49:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:45:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":538,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（12時45分）有請交通部。"],["主席：請部長。"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝主席。"],["王部長國材：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：首先，對於花蓮發生大地震，我想大家都非常遺憾跟關心，每逢像地震、颱風、大雨的那種天災，我們就會發現基礎的交通建設有多麼重要，我相信每個東部的居民心裡都會有這樣子的一個願望──想要一條回家的道路。當然也是很慶幸這次地震不是發生在連假期間，但是我們看到這次的地震，在蘇花公路造成一名聯結車的司機被落石砸中，當場死亡；下清水橋整座坍方，全線很多地方都中斷。所以請問我們的交通部蘇花安的改善計畫到底要多久？現在的困境到底在哪裡？"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，現在也沒有困境，就要積極推動，我們目標就是121年完工，現在環評小組2月審過，我們這個月底會再送進去，趕5月12號的大會，過了的話我們就是來建。","剛剛所提的在整個蘇花安的路線，我們事實上從可行性到綜合規劃是不斷的優化，比如說過去在和仁到崇德這一段，是兩個短隧道，現在弄一個10.2公里的長隧道，避免它裸露在外面的機會，所以我們現在整個都是積極優化，提供花東一條安全回家的路。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝我們的部長。除了花東地區以外，還有一個地方也需要安全回家的路，就是中橫公路的復建計畫，從921到現在，大地震中斷我們臺中的路線，梨山地區的居民已經等了25年，到現在還沒有通，有居民的小孩等到現在都畢業了，我從來臺灣跟吉普車隊去的時候，到現在我小孩子已經28歲了，我們的小孩子都等不到這條路通，大學都畢業了，也都嫁人了，到現在還沒有通。","每一個縣市，像我們臺中梨山這邊也需要一個回家的路，希望不只是花蓮，已經地震25年了，今年2月16號行政院終於核定可行計畫，但是中橫便道依照計畫還要再13年才完工，我們臺中人等不到，就一直等、一直等，等到脖子都長了，都等不到。所以請問部長，這個期程有沒有可能縮短，還是有沒有其他的方案？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，這個部分921以後，經過十幾年讓它地形、地貌穩定的時間，我們是估115以後可以進入施工的階段，所以我們就提前做可行性。剛才談到谷關到德基水庫這一段，現在方案也已經找出來，就是新路線的方案找出來了，因為後續還有一個環評，然後綜合規劃的階段，我們會加速來進行。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，再拜託交通部，對政府來說只是一個計畫，對我們在那邊的民眾來說是可以有一個回家的路啦！"],["王部長國材：好，我們來加速。"],["麥委員玉珍：這個部分我們要拜託部長，謝謝。"],["王部長國材：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員發言。","下一位請謝衣鳯委員發言，謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯不在。","陳亭妃委員發言，陳亭妃、陳亭妃不在。","蔡易餘委員發言，蔡易餘、蔡易餘不在。","下一位請邱若華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃仁","許智傑","陳培瑜","沈伯洋"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1133001_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.68721875,"end":14.374718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.509718750000001,"end":14.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.94409375,"end":16.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.51721875,"end":21.242843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.242843750000002,"end":21.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.85034375,"end":68.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.45909375000001,"end":78.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.20846875000001,"end":84.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.31721875000001,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.72096875000001,"end":99.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.23909375000001,"end":104.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.24659375,"end":107.86221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.11534375000001,"end":110.64659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.91659375,"end":112.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.14409375000001,"end":120.50159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.55221875000001,"end":126.39096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.81284375000001,"end":128.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.77034375,"end":135.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.06034375000002,"end":171.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.38346875000002,"end":147.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.46784375000001,"end":147.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.00846875000002,"end":171.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.37971875000002,"end":171.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.24034375000002,"end":191.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.62721875,"end":180.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.77909375000002,"end":181.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.47784375,"end":192.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.06409375,"end":197.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.29971875,"end":210.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.86721875,"end":231.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.51784375000003,"end":267.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.70221875000004,"end":283.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.10721875,"end":268.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.38909375000003,"end":273.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.89034375,"end":279.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.32909375,"end":279.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.36284375,"end":279.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.95346875,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.96971875,"end":283.98659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.148,"end":16.05,"text":"有請交通部部長謝謝主席"},{"start":23.39,"end":42.722,"text":"首先對花蓮發生大地震我想大家都非常遺憾跟關心但我們發現說只是地震每逢像颱風、大雨的那種天災我們就會知道基礎的交通建設有多麼重要"},{"start":43.482,"end":70.962,"text":"我相信每個東部的居民心裡都會有這樣子的一個願望是說想要一條回家的道路當然也是很慶幸這一次地震不是發生在連駕期間所以我們看到這一次的地震在樹花公路造成一名連結車的司機被落石砸中就是當場死亡"},{"start":72.223,"end":92.657,"text":"下清水橋整座攤販的全線中斷多地方攤販所以請問我們的交通部蘇安花的改善計畫到底要多久現在的困境到底在哪裡"},{"start":93.952,"end":118.281,"text":"各位報告,現在也沒有困境,就要積極推動。目標就是120年完工。現在環評小組2月審購,我們這個月底會再送進去。趕5月12號的大會。過的話我們就是來見。剛剛所提的在整個蘇安的路線,我們事實上從可行性到綜合規劃是不斷的優化。"},{"start":119.701,"end":135.265,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":136.104,"end":158.807,"text":"好,謝謝我們的部長除了花東地區以外還有一個地方也是要安全回家的路就是我們的中橫公路的復建計畫從921到現在這個大地震的中斷我們台中的路線就離山地區的居民已經等了25年了"},{"start":160.128,"end":180.538,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":180.698,"end":208.777,"text":"所以希望說我們就是大學都畢業了小孩子都嫁人了到現在還沒有通所以我們每一個縣市就是像我們台中離山這邊也需要一個回家的路希望說我們要不只是我們的花蓮所以這已經地震25年了所以今年在2月16號行政院終於核定可行計畫但是"},{"start":211.299,"end":231.441,"text":"要依照這中衡的變道還有計畫說在13年才完工這個是我們台中人就是等無啦等到脖子都寡啦等無到所以請問部長這個期程有沒有可能縮短還是有沒有其他的方案"},{"start":232.817,"end":259.125,"text":"委員報告,這個部分他前面921以後他經過十幾年叫做讓他地形、地貿穩定的時間那我們是估這個115以後可以進入施工的階段所以我們就提前做這個可行性那剛才談到就是古灌到德基水庫這一段現在已經方案也找出來了就是新的路線的方案找出來"},{"start":259.705,"end":281.405,"text":"那後續就是他因為後下一個環評然後這個綜合規劃的一個階段那我們要加速我們加速來進行拜託我們交通部你們對政府來說只是一個計畫對我們的民眾在那邊來說是我們可以說有一個回家的路這個部分我們要拜託拜託我們的部長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151319","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151319","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627aaac42d408f684950e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c940954a5661336367d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"12:39:40 - 12:44:52","影片長度":"00:05:12","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":312,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:44:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:39:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":504,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（12時39分）主席，請交通部王部長。"],["主席：王部長請。"],["王部長國材：許委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好。我想請教一下，就是在0403地震之後，剛剛看了你們的報告，目前雖然已經修復了部分，但是對外的交通還是相當不方便，請問交通部計畫在多久的時間內會讓花蓮往外的交通能夠恢復正常？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，鐵路部分在4月3號隔天的4月4號就通了，所以鐵路雙向沒問題。公路部分就是台9跟台8，台9現在的確在下清水橋斷了以後，我們目前是用便橋的方式，比較不方便，是單向。"],["許委員宇甄：我的意思是，所有的海陸空通通都可以恢復正常大概會在什麼時候？"],["王部長國材：現在都恢復了，但就是比較不方便，然後我們有中期……"],["許委員宇甄：有沒有訂一個時程？就是大概什麼時候可以恢復正常？"],["王部長國材：像下清水橋的部分就是年底會修好。"],["許委員宇甄：年底？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["許委員宇甄：所以應該是所有的重建工作都會在年底前？對外交通的部分啦！"],["王部長國材：對，中程的部分在年底以前。"],["許委員宇甄：好，是不是可以請部長，因為這對花蓮人來說是非常的不方便，希望能夠加快。"],["王部長國材：好。"],["許委員宇甄：另外，在這次的地震當中，因為花蓮最重要都是以觀光業、旅遊業為主，經過這次的地震之後，其實疫情就已經對他們造成一個衝擊，在地震之後更是雪上加霜，所以觀光署表示已經在研擬5月到年底的協助振興方案，希望在5月初能夠順利推動。我想請教一下，中央行政院是不是可以同意這個計畫的補助經費？"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，我們現在大概有三個，觀光署的部分，第一波就是旅宿業的信用保證跟利息貸款，第二波就是受災戶到旅館居住的補助，第三個就是我們對於自由行跟團客的補助。現在觀光署已經有初步方案，但是因為行政院有一個跨部會協助花蓮的方案，我們現在會將這個計畫提到這裡來談……"],["許委員宇甄：除了花蓮，我覺得臺東可能也需要，因為它最近的觀光旅遊人數一直不斷地下降。另外，再請教您，發展觀光條例第七十條之二條規定，本條例在中華民國104年1月20日修正前，就是相關的條文在10年內可以向地方主管機關申請旅遊業的登記。但是因為前幾年遇到新冠疫情的關係，所以這些單位包括香客大樓、青年活動中心、教師會館、國軍英雄館及學校實習旅館都沒有辦法在10年內完成登記，但這些往往都是觀光客會去住宿的地方，而且也有不少的從業人員。本席在這邊要求是不是可以再展延5年，以輔導上述單位取得合法的證照或轉型，也維護他們員工的權益？"],["王部長國材：觀光署有在研究，我請副署長說明。"],["周副署長廷彰：謝謝委員關心這個議題，如果像一些的香客大樓，或者是有一些不是營利性質的，比如香客大樓是隨喜添香油錢，那它就不具營業的事實，所以這個不會在我們規範的範圍之內。"],["許委員宇甄：是，所以其他部分是不是麻煩再研擬一下？"],["周副署長廷彰：OK，比如像學校是給教職員使用，那也不具營業事實，所以不在這個條例的範圍。"],["許委員宇甄：好，就剛剛本席提的部分麻煩你再研擬一下？是不是可以延長到5年？"],["周副署長廷彰：好。"],["許委員宇甄：另外，4月10號的馬習二會，習近平公開表示樂見大陸民眾多去祖國寶島看一看，不少人都認為這對於兩岸觀光可以很快地鬆綁，也讓我們旅遊業又看到曙光，所以在11號的時候，觀光、航空股就紛紛上漲，代表大家都樂觀地看待此事。因此交通部是不是可以先表達善意，取消日前公布的禁團令，重新開放我方組團赴陸旅遊，重振旅遊業的商機，由我們率先表態、展現善意，也代表我們更加希望兩岸能夠重啟觀光業，請問部長是否可以？"],["王部長國材：因為3月1號到5月底，現在在開放中，我們……"],["許委員宇甄：對，我知道，我指的是6月開始的禁團令。"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，現在就在釋出善意，我們在等回應，昨天我跟觀光業稍微座談一下，他們事實上，比如對岸的國臺辦等等也因為馬習二會裡面所提的這個部分，他們也在探詢啦！"],["許委員宇甄：是，所以部長對於取消禁團令也樂觀其成，是嗎？"],["王部長國材：如果對方也過來的話，雙向往來我是支持的。"],["許委員宇甄：好，我們希望能夠協助旅遊業來共度這個難關，謝謝。"],["王部長國材：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員。","下一位請麥玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃仁","許智傑","陳培瑜","沈伯洋"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1133001_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.705343750000001,"end":5.262218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.262218750000001,"end":5.2790937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.66721875,"end":8.063468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.08034375,"end":8.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.09721875,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.957843750000002,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.716593750000001,"end":13.851593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.851593750000003,"end":34.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.724718750000001,"end":15.927218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.35471875,"end":50.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.38596875,"end":55.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.83284375,"end":53.001593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.02659375,"end":56.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.95034375,"end":56.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.96721875,"end":56.98409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.98409375000001,"end":57.000968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.000968750000006,"end":57.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.203468750000006,"end":57.220343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.220343750000005,"end":59.650343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.650343750000005,"end":63.83534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.23221875,"end":62.586593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.87346875,"end":63.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.83534375000001,"end":68.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.852218750000006,"end":64.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.12221875,"end":65.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.97409375000001,"end":68.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.25659375000001,"end":68.62784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.62784375000001,"end":73.52159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.49221875,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.21784375,"end":116.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.07346875,"end":79.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.29534375,"end":150.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.13846875000002,"end":198.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.29096875000002,"end":202.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.65721875000003,"end":223.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.79471875000002,"end":216.89159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.30034375000002,"end":220.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.69659375,"end":223.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.55721875,"end":223.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.35034375,"end":228.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.89846875,"end":227.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.28221875000003,"end":234.20534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.56909375,"end":229.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.26909375000002,"end":231.64034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.28159375,"end":244.29659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.70721875,"end":236.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.65096875,"end":252.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.86909375000002,"end":276.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.54471875,"end":281.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.29096875,"end":282.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.46784375000004,"end":294.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.66846875000005,"end":300.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.03471875,"end":302.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.48159375,"end":307.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.04659375,"end":305.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.54846875000004,"end":306.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.93221875,"end":311.72909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.898,"end":8.292,"text":"主席請交通部王部長王部長請"},{"start":14.656,"end":34.773,"text":"議員好部長好我想請教一下就是我們04、03的地震之後剛剛看你們的報告目前雖然已經修復了部分但是目前對外的交通還是相當不方便請問交通部計畫在多久的時間內會讓花蓮通往外的這個交通能夠恢復正常是我剛委員報告"},{"start":35.934,"end":52.85,"text":"那個鐵路部分在這個4月3號隔天4月4號就通了啦所以雙向鐵路沒問題公路就是一個是台9跟台8那台9現在的確下清水條斷了以後我們現在是用一個變橋的方式比較不方便單向"},{"start":53.45,"end":80.061,"text":"我的意思是說到底大概所有的海路空通通都可以恢復正常的都在大概是什麼時候現在都恢復但是就是比較不方便現在是會比較不方便然後我們有我們有定一個時程就是大概什麼時候可以恢復正常夏清水橋的部分就是年底會把它修好年底所以應該是所有的重建工作都在年底前會這個對外的交通的部分對中場的部分在年底"},{"start":80.541,"end":107.476,"text":"是不是可以請這個部長因為這是對花蓮人來說是非常的不方便希望能夠加快喔然後另外就是在這次的地震當中因為其實花蓮最重要都是以觀光業的為主旅遊業為主嘛那現在這一次經過地震之後其實在疫情就已經造成了他們的一個衝擊那地震之後更是雪上加霜啦所以觀光署表示已經在年底五月到年底的協助振興方案"},{"start":107.916,"end":135.444,"text":"希望在五月初能夠順利推動。我想請教一下中央行政院是不是可以同意這個計畫的補助經費。我們現在大概有光屬的部分。就是說第一波就是李樹葉的信用保證跟利息貸款。然後第二波就是受災戶讓他到旅館居住的補助。那第三個就是我們對於自由行跟團客的補助。"},{"start":136.144,"end":155.2,"text":"那現在觀光署已經有初步方案但是因為行政院是有一個各部會、跨部會的一個協助花蓮的一個方案那我們現在這個計畫會提到這個來談是,除了花蓮我覺得台東可能也需要因為它最近的觀光的這個流人可以一直不斷地下降"},{"start":155.8,"end":168.793,"text":"另外再請教您就是發展觀光條例第70之二條規定本條例在中華民國104年1月22號修正前就是這個相關的這個條文在10年內可以向地方主管機關申請旅遊業的登記"},{"start":171.315,"end":197.764,"text":"但是因為前幾年遇到新冠疫情的關係所以這些單位包括商課大樓、青年活動中心、教室會館、國際入所館跟學校實習旅館這些都沒有辦法在10年內完成登記但這些往往都是公安課他們住宿會去使用的地方而且有不少的從業人員本期在這邊要求是不是可以再展延5年以輔導上述的單位取得合法的證照或轉型以維護他們員工的權益"},{"start":199.684,"end":222.037,"text":"公務署有再研究,我請副署長說明好不好,來請是,好,謝謝委員關心這個議題那我想如果說像一些的香客大樓或者是說有一些不是營利性質的比如說這個香客大樓是這個水洗那天那個香客以前的話那他就不計那個營業的那個事實所以這個不會在我們的那個規範的範圍之內是"},{"start":224.398,"end":227.4,"text":"另外就是4月10日的馬席二會習近平公開表示樂見大陸民眾多去祖國報道"},{"start":245.03,"end":273.433,"text":"這個看一看不少人都認為這對於兩岸觀光可以很快的鬆綁也讓我們旅遊樂看到曙光所以在11號的時候我們的觀光航空股就紛紛上漲代表著大家都樂觀的看待此事所以交通部是不是可以先表達善意取消日前公布的進團令重新開放我方組團復入旅遊重振旅遊業的這個商機也由我們這個率先的表態展現善意也代表我們更加希望兩岸能夠重啟觀光業"},{"start":275.314,"end":297.866,"text":"請問部長是否可以因為我們現在3月1號到5月底現在在開放中對我知道我指的是您6月開始的精算令現在就在釋出善意我們等回應昨天我跟觀光業稍微座談一下他們也事實上比如對岸的國台辦等等的也是因為這個馬歇二會裡面所提的這個部分他們也在探詢"},{"start":298.826,"end":310.334,"text":"所以說部長對於這個取消競團運營也樂觀其成是嗎?我如果對方也過來的話雙向這個往來我是支持的。好,我們希望能夠協助李友業來共度這個難關。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151318","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151318","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f0162727aaebc2148ca5850e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c9477e467243de167255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"12:32:18 - 12:39:29","影片長度":"00:07:11","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":431,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:39:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:32:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":483,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（12時32分）主席，我請部長跟臺鐵的董事長。"],["主席：部長。"],["王部長國材：王委員好。"],["王委員世堅：部長，給東部人一條安全回家的路，這句話已經講了幾十年了，也經過兩黨輪流執政之後，在各黨執政時期都個別發生過往東部鐵路的意外事件，這次我們有一個六年的改善計畫，從104年到111年，也花了不少錢，花了10億元，其實真的有效的話，不要說10億元，就算是100億元、再多的金額都應該花。","我今天跟你提起這件事情是因為我發現臺鐵所布建、檢測這些邊坡落石的地段、滑動的地段，我覺得過於草率了，花是有花了10億元沒錯，但是你們檢測到的，第一點，你們檢測是用基本的目測、目視，第二點，目視認為有危險的地方你們才去加裝這一些警示器、偵測器，事實上我都覺得這已經太被動而且也太少，我就舉例，整個臺鐵沿線你們設的這些邊坡落石警示器，你們有設26處，反觀高鐵，高鐵只有在我們臺灣的西岸，光高鐵就高達95處之多，高鐵就95處喔！它只在我們西岸，更何況高鐵經過的地區大部分都屬於平面路段，在那樣子的情況下，它對於它會接觸到的邊坡，它就那麼細緻、詳細的去規劃、去檢測、去做警示器，而你臺鐵呢？你通過的不只是我們臺灣西部地點，還包括東北段整個環臺灣的鐵路這樣下來，這26處你說得過嗎？","第二點，4月10號普悠瑪又發生邊坡落石導致出軌的事情，這一次發生問題的地點還不在你們26處的偵測當中，天啊！到底還有多少地方你們沒有監測、沒有去檢測到、沒有去裝設監視系統？所以還是個很大的未知數。針對這個部分，部長的看法為何？這個部分要怎麼加強？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，的確過去臺鐵有的用鋼軌樁來當柵欄，然後在邊坡做一些攔石頭的設備，後來這26處已經做好，現在我們另外有一個計畫是做38處。而剛才委員所提到的，的確這一次是從上面的公路邊坡掉到鐵路軌道，在檢查裡面鐵路邊坡是OK的，但是它從上面公路這樣掉下來，所以這個是在這一次……"],["王委員世堅：所以是從公路掉下來，部長，你這又提醒了我另外一點，結果我們臺鐵多妙，它所檢測的範圍，它表示20公尺範圍內才是它，超過20公尺的，它表示要看看所有權人是誰，所以它一推就推給公路局，或者推給其他邊坡地主的身上，這不是很奇怪嗎？20公尺怎麼算的啦？這次我們光看地震所掉下來的大石頭，來源都不只20公尺啦，不是嗎？所以你們20公尺怎麼算的呢？局長，你的算法是什麼？董事長，你們怎麼計算？你是這一部分的專業，你是在鐵路局從基層一路上來的！對於鐵路系統的安全以及它的檢測、偵測系統，你應該更謹慎才對啊，不是嗎？"],["杜董事長微：是，跟委員報告，這個20公尺是指我們路權的開始起算，的確像這一次地震而發生公路側邊坡的這件事情，我們未來會加強跟公總的聯繫，我們不會把這個區塊放過。"],["王委員世堅：加強跟公路總局的聯繫，公路總局有很多，我就提供一樣，它有朝巡啦！就是在重大的地震事故、天災之後，他們會針對每一處可能的地點去做朝巡，每次一啟動就是連續7天，請問我們鐵路公司有嗎？"],["王部長國材：有。"],["王委員世堅：沒有吧？"],["王部長國材：有。"],["杜董事長微：我們也有自己巡軌的一個規定。"],["王委員世堅：你們有自己的巡軌規定？怎樣的規定？至少我在你們所有的報告裡面看不到，它是朝巡，人家一早就出動啦！你是夜巡嗎？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，剛才談到的，有的叫定檢，有一個叫特別檢查，就是地震以後他們都馬上發動特別檢查，然後我們交通部有一個系統會通知它哪一些地方要特別檢查，這個有在做。的確剛剛委員提到的那個我覺得很重要，就是現在的危害已經不是只看自己路權的部分，它上面有公路，知道上面可能有東西會掉下來，所以我會請兩個局要看一下，像這種從公路邊坡掉到鐵路邊坡再掉到軌道，這件事情在後續的落石告警系統就要去處理。"],["王委員世堅：好。謝謝主席。部長，記得喔！20公尺是很顢頇的，這是自我設定，那是錯誤的，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員的發言。","下一位請許宇甄委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃仁","許智傑","陳培瑜","沈伯洋"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1133001_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.101593750000001,"end":10.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.539718750000002,"end":11.742218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.117218750000003,"end":15.825968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.36596875,"end":16.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.41659375,"end":16.922843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.46721875,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.294093750000002,"end":17.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.64846875,"end":18.610343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.33159375,"end":21.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.664718750000002,"end":23.723468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.465968750000002,"end":25.461593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.085968750000003,"end":27.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.414718750000002,"end":29.460968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.524093750000002,"end":31.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.60409375,"end":33.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.25784375,"end":35.400968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.19409375,"end":38.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.96159375,"end":39.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.041593750000004,"end":42.893468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.079093750000006,"end":43.315343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.78784375,"end":51.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.735968750000005,"end":52.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.91721875,"end":55.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.853468750000005,"end":58.67159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.93721875000001,"end":63.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.61596875,"end":64.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.99534375,"end":66.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.90659375,"end":68.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.18471875,"end":70.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.51346875,"end":73.30221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.06159375,"end":76.01909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.91346875,"end":78.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.47846875,"end":81.52034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.16159375000001,"end":84.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.55784375,"end":87.42659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.57409375,"end":89.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.90721875,"end":97.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.51346875,"end":100.04909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.55534375,"end":101.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.85471875,"end":103.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.57596875,"end":104.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.62221875,"end":105.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.85409375,"end":106.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.88346875,"end":108.04784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.26721875000001,"end":108.53721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.75659375000001,"end":110.00534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.51159375,"end":113.75159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.54471875,"end":119.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.58596875,"end":121.98659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.23534375000001,"end":124.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.51346875,"end":128.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.64784375000002,"end":131.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.29284375,"end":135.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.65096875,"end":143.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.26159375,"end":146.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.11346875,"end":154.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.06159375000001,"end":158.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.90909375,"end":160.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.54159375,"end":164.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.18659375000001,"end":165.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.63784375,"end":167.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.05096875,"end":169.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.19846875000002,"end":171.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.71721875,"end":172.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.96596875,"end":176.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.18471875,"end":178.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.20971875,"end":182.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.97284375,"end":184.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.33534375000002,"end":186.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.68096875,"end":188.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.45284375,"end":190.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.44409375,"end":194.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.05096875,"end":198.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.32471875000002,"end":200.10096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.57346875000002,"end":207.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.07846875,"end":209.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.12471875,"end":212.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.06096875,"end":214.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.47846875000002,"end":215.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.62596875000003,"end":218.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.65096875,"end":232.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.43346875,"end":238.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.93034375000002,"end":252.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.63284375,"end":256.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.83534375000002,"end":253.15596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.98659375,"end":258.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.33221875000004,"end":263.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.19221875,"end":277.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.38909375000003,"end":273.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.26596875,"end":284.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.37034375,"end":290.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.04034375000003,"end":291.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.39034375,"end":296.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.67659375,"end":297.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.80721875,"end":307.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.10096875,"end":309.40034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.72096875,"end":312.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.99471875,"end":315.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.01534375,"end":316.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.09534375000004,"end":337.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.99534375,"end":338.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.83034375,"end":342.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.98159375,"end":344.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.07409375000003,"end":345.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.35659375,"end":350.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.04784375,"end":352.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.25846875,"end":355.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.11034375,"end":361.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.54409375,"end":365.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.24409375000005,"end":364.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.27784375000005,"end":364.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.31971875000005,"end":367.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.22659375,"end":371.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.80409375000005,"end":378.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.67221875,"end":378.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.80721875,"end":378.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.85784375000003,"end":378.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.87471875,"end":381.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.03471875,"end":399.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.03596875000005,"end":403.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.86659375000005,"end":412.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.20284375,"end":415.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.35846875000004,"end":415.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.42596875000004,"end":416.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.18096875000003,"end":421.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.02846875,"end":421.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.06221875,"end":421.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.92284375,"end":422.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.95221875000004,"end":430.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.07034375,"end":423.62721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.66034375000004,"end":430.84971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.273,"end":28.713,"text":"主席,我請部長跟台鐵的董事長。給東部人一條安全回家的路。那這句話已經講了幾十年了。那也經過"},{"start":31.915,"end":57.623,"text":"兩黨輪流執政之後那也都各別在各黨執政時期都有發生過在往東部鐵路的意外事件那這一次我們有一個改善的六年計劃一百零四年到一百一十一年也花了不少錢花了十億元其實喔真的有效的話不要說十億元啦一百億元再多的金額都應該花"},{"start":59.98,"end":86.93,"text":"我今天跟你提起這件事情就是說我發現我們台鐵所布建所檢測的這些邊坡落石的地段滑動的地段我覺得齁過於草率啦花是有花了十億元沒錯但是你們檢測到的第一點你們檢測是用基本的目測目視"},{"start":89.963,"end":117.482,"text":"那第二點牧師有認為有危險的地方你們才去加裝這些警示器啦偵測器這一些那事實上我都覺得這已經太被動而且也太少我就舉例你在整個台鐵這個沿線你們設的這些邊坡落石警示器你們有設26處"},{"start":120.646,"end":146.185,"text":"那這26處光高鐵啊高鐵只有在我們台灣的西岸光高鐵他就高達95處之多啦高鐵就95處他只在我們西岸更何況高鐵經過的地區大部分都屬於平民路段"},{"start":147.325,"end":167.722,"text":"那樣子的情況下他對於他會接觸到的邊坡他就那麼細緻、詳細的去規劃、去檢測、去做警示器而你台鐵你通過了你不只是我們台灣西部地點你包括東北段整個環台灣的"},{"start":171.772,"end":173.353,"text":"這次發生問題的地點還不在你26處的偵測當中天啊"},{"start":199.406,"end":205.176,"text":"所以到底還有多少地方我們沒有檢測 沒有去檢測到 沒有去裝設監視系統 所以還是個很大的未知數"},{"start":213.103,"end":217.986,"text":"所以這個部分齁,那個部長你的看法呢?"},{"start":217.986,"end":218.647,"text":"這個部分要怎麼加強?"},{"start":243.403,"end":260.279,"text":"那他的確在他檢查裡面是鐵路的變貌是OK的但是從上面公路這樣掉下來所以這個是在這次這一個所以是從公路上那部長你這又提醒了我另外一點結果我們台鐵多妙他所檢測的範圍他說啊20公尺"},{"start":264.746,"end":291.283,"text":"範圍內才是他欸超過20公尺的一公那要看看所有全人是誰那很多那個那個就是他一推456就推給公務局或者推給其他邊坡那些坡地地主的身上這不是很奇怪嗎20公尺你20公尺怎麼算的啦這次我們觀看地震那個大石頭那個來源都不止20公尺啦不是嗎"},{"start":292.458,"end":315.021,"text":"所以你20公尺怎麼算的呢?局長你的算法是怎麼算的?欸那個董事長,你們怎麼算法?你是這一部分專業欸!你是鐵路局從基層一路上來的欸!你應該對鐵路系統的安全、它的檢測、它的布測這些偵測系統,你應該更謹慎才對啊不是嗎?是。"},{"start":317.268,"end":341.849,"text":"跟委員報告這個20公尺是指我們路權開始計算那的確啦像這一次我們這個地震發生在公路側的邊坡的這件事情我們未來會加強跟公路總局那邊的一個聯繫我們不會把這個加強跟公路總局的聯繫公路總局很多至少我覺得我光提供一樣"},{"start":343.015,"end":370.442,"text":"他有召詢啦就是說重大的地震事故天災之後人家他們啦會針對每一處可能的地點他們去做召詢每一次一起動連著就7天我請問啊我們鐵路局可有啦鐵路公司可有沒有吧我們也有我們自己巡軌的一個規定"},{"start":371.857,"end":388.25,"text":"你們有你們選舉的規定?怎樣的規定?至少我在你所有的報告裡面看不到。他是招詢。人家他早上一早就出動啦。你夜詢嗎?我跟委員剛才談到的有的叫定檢。一個叫特別檢查。就地震以後他們都馬上發動這個特別檢查。"},{"start":390.191,"end":419.731,"text":"然後我們在這個交通部有一個系統會通知他說哪一些地方要特別檢查這個我在做的確剛剛委員提到那個我覺得很重要就是說他的現在的危害已經不是只有看自己路線的部分他上面有公路他知道說上面有可能下來所以我覺得在這一次我也請他們兩個局要看一下像這一種從這個公路邊坡掉到鐵路的邊坡然後掉到軌道這一件事情在後續的落實告警系統就要去處理"},{"start":420.711,"end":428.758,"text":"謝謝主席那個部長記得喔20公尺這個是蠻憨的自我設定那是錯誤的好不好好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151317","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151317","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f0162791245a6c0ce6866e0e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c94ceb055e68315fde05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"12:26:00 - 12:32:00","影片長度":"00:06:00","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":360,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:32:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:26:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":428,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（12時26分）謝謝召委。麻煩我們部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["廖委員先翔：鐵道局也一起好了。部長，今天請教一下汐東線，因為之前有流標，汐東線之前有流標，我當然有跟新北市政府請教一下他們流標後續要怎麼處置，當然也有討論到一些原因，流標之後市政府會去詢問潛在的廠商，看這個標案是有哪些問題，其中有一項好像有提到國車國造規格的問題，廠商好像有一些疑義，我不確定……這部長不一定知道，局長你知道嗎？"],["楊局長正君：目前應該沒有聽到有規格上面的問題。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，之後如果新北市政府對於這個規格有廠商有問題的話，再來請教鐵道局，因為現在都有規範我們的捷運建設基本上都要國車國造，我想確認一下國車國造目前全臺灣第一個案例是哪邊的？完全100%的國車國造？"],["楊局長正君：現在沒有，到目前為止沒有完全100%。"],["廖委員先翔：沒有100%？"],["楊局長正君：是。"],["廖委員先翔：那未來第一個100%會是？"],["楊局長正君：到目前為止，最高的比例是安坑輕軌，43%，"],["廖委員先翔：那汐東的部分？"],["楊局長正君：汐東希望達到50以上。"],["廖委員先翔：那可能因為每年國車國造的比例真的越來越高，可能廠商可以去……畢竟國車國造可能就是一家廠商而已嘛？只有一家廠商，他們可能會去確認一下規格。沒關係，這部分我們會後再來一起協助新北市政府，無論是規格問題或者是經費的問題，他們有提出嗎？需要增加預算的部分。"],["楊局長正君：目前還沒有。"],["廖委員先翔：目前還沒有？"],["楊局長正君：是。"],["廖委員先翔：好，那沒關係，後續我們再一起推動，謝謝局長。","部長，請教一下，前一陣子發生大地震，我們知道大地震震完之後，許多軌道建設都會有巡查，要確認安全後才會行駛，我想確認一下，在公路系統中我們有許多的高架橋梁，譬如說我每天在走的十八標有很多高架的路段，我們在設計的時候是可以耐多少級的震度？"],["王部長國材：很多是七級，至少七級，但是現在有一些舊的就不符合，新的大概都……"],["廖委員先翔：現在的規範是七級？"],["王部長國材：對。"],["廖委員先翔：但就是要看它當初蓋的時候的規範，它符合當時的規定……"],["王部長國材：但是如果譬如過去是五、六級，我們會用結構補強方式來把它補強。"],["廖委員先翔：所以您指的七級是指它所在地的那個嗎？傳遞到這邊的七級？"],["王部長國材：對，當地。"],["廖委員先翔：當地七級嘛？所以這個強度應該是還滿高的啦！"],["王部長國材：是。"],["廖委員先翔：七級的要求是指說……因為我知道我們有一些規範譬如說大震不倒，然後中震怎麼樣、小震可以補。"],["趙局長興華：跟委員報告，我們在耐震的強度下，它還可以維持一個行車的安全，就是人命的確保，但橋梁還是會有損傷的地方，或多或少都有一些損傷……"],["廖委員先翔：所以我們的七級就是確保它不會倒？"],["趙局長興華：確保安全，確保行車的安全。"],["廖委員先翔：確保安全不會倒？但是它可能會有一些損傷，就是看個案情況這樣子？"],["趙局長興華：是。"],["廖委員先翔：那我們之後……因為像鐵路運輸一定都是先停止行駛，對不對？在公路系統的部分我們大概要在多久時間內完成巡視？"],["趙局長興華：跟委員報告，我們現在是整個國道部分有密布3,000支的CCTV，所以我們會在第一時間很迅速、很短的時間內確認，然後用CCTV全部都看一遍，確認沒有問題，我們就繼續來行駛。"],["廖委員先翔：所以CCTV有包含到那麼密嗎？你如果以3,000支的話，大概1支是多長？"],["趙局長興華：我們現在是1,062公里。"],["廖委員先翔：3,000支、1,062公里，大概平均、如果算平均的話？"],["趙局長興華：每一個CCTV可以zoom、可以看得很遠。"],["廖委員先翔：所以我們可以確保我們的CCTV是能夠涵蓋、就是它的視野是可以涵蓋所有的路段？"],["趙局長興華：關於橋梁的部分，整個CCTV看完之後，我們會在一個工作天之內，人員也會再做確認，然後再後面的話會有個別的……"],["廖委員先翔：那三千多支你要多少人才能夠一支一支看完？"],["趙局長興華：所有交通中心的人都會集中來關注這件事情。"],["廖委員先翔：那有沒有考慮過用AI輔助之類的來幫忙判讀？"],["趙局長興華：目前還沒有看到有這些的發展，後續的話，我們會看國外的狀況是怎麼樣做，尤其是日本。"],["廖委員先翔：其實道路……鏡頭一樣的話，它路況原則上會一樣，就車子會動而已，主結構原則上不會動，如果用影像來判別的話，相對起來我自己判斷的難易度應該不會那麼高啦！當然有一些小的損傷可能不一定那麼容易判讀，但是如果有比較大的損傷的時候，我們應該是有辦法用AI系統來判讀。"],["趙局長興華：我們大概有列管一些橋梁的部分，會針對那些列管、即我們評估在耐震上會有一些風險的地方，會特別去注意。"],["廖委員先翔：沒有，我其實只是在討論一個時效性的問題，就像我們都會希望大概在一定的時間內，譬如說軌道運輸，大家都希望能夠在多久時間以內確保安全，然後讓列車繼續行駛，公路系統應該也是一樣，讓人民大概知道當地震發生過後，可以在多久之內完成巡查，因為我們高公局的效率是很好的，如果沒有發出特別的異常通報，其實民眾是可以放心的，好不好？"],["趙局長興華：是。"],["廖委員先翔：就是用科技的方式來輔助我們人力判讀的業務負荷，這是我的一些建議，你們參考一下。"],["趙局長興華：我們會持續的研究。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝。"],["王部長國材：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員。","下一位請王世堅委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃仁","許智傑","陳培瑜","沈伯洋"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1133001_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.31784375,"end":0.6722187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.6722187500000001,"end":0.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.4353437499999995,"end":7.472843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.063468750000002,"end":9.177218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.742218750000003,"end":15.184718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.31596875,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.69096875,"end":44.580968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.77034375,"end":50.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.85846875,"end":50.875343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.875343750000006,"end":68.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.30284375000001,"end":69.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.42096875,"end":71.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.88909375,"end":73.94346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.40346875,"end":76.25534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.82909375,"end":80.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.89596875000001,"end":80.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.94659375,"end":83.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.75221875000001,"end":84.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.76034375,"end":90.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.12221875,"end":105.95534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.27596875,"end":106.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.88346875,"end":106.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.96784375,"end":134.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.30096875,"end":136.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.97159375,"end":144.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.92909375000002,"end":139.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.48096875000002,"end":150.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.38721875000002,"end":156.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.42846875,"end":162.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.58784375000002,"end":162.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.92534375,"end":163.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.22909375,"end":165.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.74784375000002,"end":167.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.26659375,"end":174.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.45096875000002,"end":177.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.99471875,"end":190.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":190.31346875,"end":192.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.87846875000002,"end":194.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.80659375000002,"end":203.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.61159375000003,"end":199.64534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.06659375,"end":206.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.49221875,"end":210.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.01909375000002,"end":215.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.25471875000002,"end":215.27159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.52471875,"end":229.14284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.15971875000002,"end":234.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.88034375,"end":236.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.07846875,"end":236.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.51721875,"end":237.14159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.68159375000002,"end":238.82909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.11159375000003,"end":243.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.03096875000003,"end":246.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.59159375000002,"end":253.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.27034375000002,"end":251.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.18971875000003,"end":261.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.91846875000005,"end":264.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.03596875,"end":269.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.08596875,"end":272.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":272.30909375000005,"end":276.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.69659375000003,"end":280.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.39221875000004,"end":284.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.52659375,"end":286.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":286.18034375,"end":288.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":288.10409375,"end":311.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.55596875000003,"end":323.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.95096875,"end":328.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":328.68846875,"end":357.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.81909375000004,"end":358.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.82721875000004,"end":358.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":358.84409375,"end":359.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.97471875,"end":360.12659375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.427,"end":14.979,"text":"謝謝好謝謝我們召委喔那麻煩我們部長部長請鐵道局也一起好了好謝謝喔部長先請教一下我們西東縣喔因為之前有流標嘛"},{"start":16.065,"end":44.293,"text":"我們西東縣之前有流標那我有當然有跟新北市政府請教一下他們流標之後後續怎麼處置啦跟當然也有討論到一些原因那好像是那流標之後市政府會去詢問潛在的廠商那這個標案是有哪一些問題嘛那其中好像有一項有提到說呃吵到有講到國車國造的規格的問題那廠商好像有一些疑義啦我不確定這可能部長不一定知道啦這個局長你知道嗎"},{"start":47.823,"end":68.022,"text":"目前應該沒有聽到有規格上面的問題沒有規格的問題好沒關係那我事後如果說新北市政府對於這個規格如果說廠商有問題的話那再來請教我們這個鐵道局啦就是因為現在都有規範我們的捷運建設基本上都要國車國照嘛那我想確認國車國照目前全台灣第一個案例是哪邊的"},{"start":69.478,"end":70.119,"text":"稍稍稍稍"},{"start":91.398,"end":105.657,"text":"會去可能確認因為畢竟國德國道可能就是一家廠商而已嘛一家廠商而已那他們可能會去確認一下規格沒關係這部分我們會後再來一起來協助新北市政府無論是規格的問題或者是經費的問題他們有提出嗎需要增加預算"},{"start":106.558,"end":134.494,"text":"目前還沒有嗎?好 那沒關係 那後續我們再一起推動好 謝謝局長那部長請教一下這個前一陣子這個大地震嘛那大家我們知道大地震完之後我們許多的軌道建設都會有這個巡查嘛那確認安全那才會行駛嘛那我想確認一下在公路系統啦我們也許多的高架橋樑嘛那譬如說我們每天在走這個18標啊很多高架的路段我們在設計的時候是可以耐多少級的震度?"},{"start":135.35,"end":160.433,"text":"他很多次7級啦至少7級但是現在有一些舊的就沒有不符合新的大家都往7級現在的規範是7級但是就是要看他當初蓋的的時候的一個規範那他符合當時的一個規範但是如果過去比如說過去是什麼5、6級我們會用結果補強方式來把它補強所以他你指的7級是指他所在地的那個嗎"},{"start":161.374,"end":177.314,"text":"那個傳遞到這邊的7級當地7級嘛那所以說這個強度應該是還蠻高的啦那7級的一個要求是指說因為我知道我們有一些規範比如說大鎮不倒嘛然後什麼中鎮怎樣小鎮可以普"},{"start":178.315,"end":206.532,"text":"基本上跟委員報告就是說我們在這個耐震的一個強度下的話他還可以維持一個行車的一個那安全的就是人命的確保但他橋樑還是會有損傷的地方或多或少都有一些所以我們的七級就是確保他不會倒確保安全確保安全不會倒但是他可能有一些損傷就是看個案的情況這樣子那我們之後就包括後每次地震之後也都會因為像鐵路運輸一定都是先停止"},{"start":207.826,"end":226.774,"text":"行駛嗎對不對那在這個公路系統的部分我們是大概會在多久時間內完成的一個巡視這樣子跟委員報告我們現在是整個國道部分有密布3000支的CCTV所以我們第一時間的話會在迅速都很短的時間內確認用CCTV全部都看一遍那看一遍之後確認沒有問題那我們就繼續來行駛這樣"},{"start":229.255,"end":238.673,"text":"所以CCTV有包含到有有有辦法到那麼密嗎?你如果說以三千隻的話大概多長一隻?我們現在是一千一零六號公里"},{"start":240.228,"end":264.31,"text":"三千之一零六二公里那大概平均若算平均的話每個CCTV的話他可以論可以看得很遠所以我們可以確保我們的CCTV是能夠涵蓋就是他的視野是可以涵蓋所有的路段橋梁的部分等CCTV看完之後我們會在一個工作天之內也會在人員在做確認然後在後面的話會有那你三千多隻你要多少人才能夠把它一次一次看完"},{"start":265.491,"end":283.969,"text":"所以我們交通中心的人都會集中一直來關注這些事那有沒有考慮過這個用AI輔助之類的來這個幫忙判讀這樣子目前還沒有看到有這些的發展那我們現在有那個後續的話我們會看國外的狀況是怎麼做尤其是日本"},{"start":284.708,"end":308.646,"text":"因為其實道路你鏡頭一樣的話那它的路況原則上會一樣這車子會動而已嘛那主結構原則上是不會動嘛那其實如果說用影像來判別的話相對起來我自己的判斷難易度應該不是那麼高啦如果說有一些小的小的損傷可能或許不一定有那麼容易判讀但是如果說我們應該可以在有比較大的損傷的時候應該是有辦法用這個AI系統來做給他一個判讀嘛"},{"start":312.615,"end":327.9,"text":"我們大概有一些列管的一個橋樑的部分會針對那些列管比較就是說我們評估上那個耐震的會有一些風險的地方的部分會特別去注意沒有我就其實就是討論一個時效性的問題就像我們大家都會希望說"},{"start":328.78,"end":358.78,"text":"﹏"},{"start":358.861,"end":359.044,"text":"好好謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151316","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151316","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f0162790c14dd1879a87860e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c947c25206b5150c49f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"12:20:15 - 12:25:49","影片長度":"00:05:34","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":334,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:25:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:20:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":402,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（12時20分）謝謝主席，有請王部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["王部長國材：徐委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長午安。感謝部長這段期間對於屏東建設的支持跟關心，也歡迎部長520之後來屏東「𨑨迌」。"],["王部長國材：謝謝。"],["徐委員富癸：我想請教部長，屏東長期有幾個重大的交通建設，我們一直都「照起工」來做，針對可行性評估、綜合規劃、環評，照這個程序來進行，我想這也是交通部給我們的答案。當然今天針對傅委員提出這個特別條例來講，我個人比較擔心的是，之前我在質詢的時候，一直問部長這是不是一條捷徑？難道可以用這些方式來解決剛剛講的程序問題？這樣大家都跳過這個程序，是不是每個立委都可以提出這樣的要求？請部長回答。"],["王部長國材：的確，像委員過去在縣政府爭取的屏南快速道路，現在可行性也通過了，準備往下走了；高鐵的部分也一樣，現在到綜合規劃、環評。我們覺得第一個當然是全國一致，有一個嚴肅、專業的評估，這很重要。現在國道六號東延已經在進行中了，我剛才也跟我們局長談，把地質調查、路廊踏勘跟可行性的時間縮短，我們現在等於是全力進行中，只有經過這個很嚴肅的評估以後，確定可行，未來才能確保一個安全的路。所以我們強調這個程序不是一個很繁雜的程序，是一個專業、理性的評估程序。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，這個就是本席現在擔心的問題點。花蓮大地震之後，原本我們就知道環評程序要進行很長的時間，我們擔心會不會因為地震的影響，造成環評程序又拉得更長，造成各縣市重大交通建設受到很大的影響，時間會拉得更長。會不會有這個問題出現？"],["王部長國材：應該看狀況啦！我覺得現在的環評審查，我們克服很多環境，比如有些地方不能經過，我們就繞過等等，我想應該不會受這個影響，應該還好。"],["徐委員富癸：部長，剛剛傅委員有提到所謂BOT興建的案子，根據本席的了解，他現在有提出一個引進國際主權財富基金的模式，請教國內目前有這樣的處理方式嗎？"],["王部長國材：沒有，好像沒有，據我了解沒有。"],["徐委員富癸：這有沒有國安的問題？"],["王部長國材：這個我就不清楚。但是我跟委員報告，一般BOT來講，比如我有一個案子要BOT出去，我要有一些資料對外公布。就像委員了解的大鵬灣，大鵬灣過去有些資料出來，但是國道六號東延還沒有最新的資料，所以我覺得縱然要BOT，它應該有一些先期評估的資料，國外才敢來，不會從頭開始。","他有提出很多相關的建議，但是我們現在已經在進行了，就是過去所有都走這樣的程序，然後完成，臺灣現在所有看到的建設，幾乎都是走這樣的程序。我想最重要的是，在這次地震以後，我們加速來進行比較重要。"],["徐委員富癸：對，部長，我們還是要照相關程序，「照起工來行」。","另外有一點也要跟部長反映，這次花蓮地震之後，造成屏鵝公路整個車流量塞在西部，包含我們屏東，出現有史以來破紀錄的車流量。像4月4日那天，光是南下路段5.3萬的車流量，從獅子鄉的草埔隧道到楓港10公里，車速維持10到15公里。我想未來是不是應該也要加快屏東的交通建設，往東部開拓一個很重要的路徑？這部分部長的看法怎麼樣？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，屏南到楓港的時候，一個是往台9線，一個往台26線，事實上在這裡的話，往東部、往墾丁的已經分散了，另外南迴公路的拓寬事實上我們已經進行很久，現在剩下幾段也在拓寬，我想它最大的應該是在屏南快速道路楓港地區的分流，分流以後我覺得狀況會比較好一點，所以我們在加速，我覺得屏南快速道路是裡面最重要的部分。"],["徐委員富癸：對，這部分要請你們加快，畢竟東部如果出現狀況的時候，西部從屏東到花東就會是一條很好的路了。"],["王部長國材：我們會加速。"],["徐委員富癸：好，謝謝。"],["王部長國材：謝謝。"],["徐委員富癸：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員。","下一位請廖先翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃仁","許智傑","陳培瑜","沈伯洋"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1133001_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.920343750000001,"end":7.658468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.82721875,"end":8.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.923468750000001,"end":14.020343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.070968750000002,"end":25.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.63909375,"end":25.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.96784375,"end":26.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.305343750000002,"end":55.330343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.13846875,"end":41.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.431593750000005,"end":61.877843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.109718750000006,"end":72.84659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.88034375000001,"end":76.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.54221875,"end":80.64284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.98034375,"end":87.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.35471875,"end":97.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.83846875,"end":103.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.86284375000001,"end":108.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.84096875,"end":110.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.32159375,"end":112.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.02596875,"end":127.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.67346875000001,"end":135.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.55409375000002,"end":135.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.73971875,"end":139.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.75659375,"end":135.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.92471875,"end":152.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.01721875,"end":142.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.21971875,"end":142.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.93534375000002,"end":155.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.27284375000002,"end":154.55534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.71971875,"end":162.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.24596875,"end":165.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.06409375,"end":168.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.59534375,"end":168.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.37159375000002,"end":184.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.69471875000002,"end":181.06596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.93471875,"end":184.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.62659375,"end":186.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.22971875000002,"end":188.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.60909375,"end":198.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.13909375,"end":223.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.45159375,"end":233.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.61471875,"end":240.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.14534375000002,"end":287.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.33096875,"end":240.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.70534375,"end":274.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.00721875,"end":295.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.36034375,"end":300.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.06846875,"end":310.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.18909375000004,"end":318.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.12034375,"end":329.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.36846875000003,"end":324.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.33409375,"end":329.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.75159375000004,"end":330.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.56159375000004,"end":331.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.09721875,"end":332.62034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.333,"end":28.314,"text":"謝謝主席。有請王部長。部長請。委員部長午安。感謝部長這段期間對於屏東建設的支持跟關心。那也歡迎部長午二零之後來屏東去投啦。謝謝。我想請教部長就是我想"},{"start":29.315,"end":50.375,"text":"平東這個長期有幾個重大的交通建設那我們都一直在叫起綱來走啦針對可行性評估綜合規劃環評照這個程序來進行那我想這也是交通部給我們的一個答案那當然今天我們針對副委員提出這個特別的一個條例來講我想"},{"start":52.617,"end":61.307,"text":"我比較個人比較擔心的是這個之前我在質詢的時候一直問到部長這個是不是一條捷徑"},{"start":63.391,"end":86.504,"text":"該不該用這個方式來蓋關我們剛剛所謂的程序的問題?這樣大家都跳過這個程序,那是不是每個立委都可以來這樣子提出這樣的要求?這個請部長回答。是,的確向委員提這個過去不敢在縣政府爭取的平安快速道路,那現在可行也通過了,就準備往下走了。高鐵的部分也一樣嘛,現在到綜合規劃、環評。"},{"start":88.545,"end":107.756,"text":"我們是覺得說第一個當然是全國一致有一個嚴肅專業的評估這個很重要所以我們是覺得現在在國道六號東延已經在進行中了那我剛才也跟我們局長談在這個地質調查跟路上踏竿跟可行性時間把它縮短"},{"start":108.897,"end":127.255,"text":"我們現在等於是這個也全力在進行中那只有經過這個很嚴肅的評估以後確定可行那未來才能確保一個安全的路所以我們是強調這個程序不是一個很環雜的程序是一個專業理性的一個評估的程序"},{"start":128.016,"end":154.185,"text":"呃部長這個就是本期現在擔心的一個問題點齁因為呃針對這個花蓮這個大地震之後我們擔心會不會這個原本我們都知道環評的程序本來就要進行有一個很長的一個時間會不會經過這個地震的影響造成環評這個程序又會拉的更長啊造成我們所謂個性是一個重大交通建設受到很大的一個影響時間又會拉的更長會不會這個問題出現應該看狀況啦齁"},{"start":156.847,"end":181.047,"text":"我覺得現在的在省財環境我們有很多客服這種環境比如說有的地方不應該經過我們就繞過等等的部長應該不會受到這個影響部長另外我想剛剛傅永有提到所謂的VOT的興建的這個案子那根據本席的了解他先有提出一個叫做引進國際的一個主權財富基金的一個模式"},{"start":181.707,"end":207.776,"text":"我請教國內我們有目前有這樣的處理方式嗎?沒有,好像沒有。我了解。啊這有那個國安的問題嗎?這個我就不清楚。但是我跟委員報告BOT一般比如說我有個案子要BOT出去我要有一些資料對外公佈就像國安這個了解大鵬灣我們大鵬灣不是這樣就是過去有一些資料出來但是國道六號東延還沒有這些最新的資料"},{"start":208.456,"end":232.918,"text":"所以我是覺得在重燃要VOT他應該有一個這個先期的一個評估已經有一些資料了國外才敢來他都不會從頭開始那我想說他這裡提到很多的相關的建議但是我們現在已經在進行了現在我們就是一個過去所有都走這樣然後也完成台灣現在所有看到的建設幾乎都是走這樣的程序"},{"start":234.161,"end":260.56,"text":"那我想說最重要是我們加速在這次地震以後我們加速來進行是比較重要對啦所以部長我們還是要照相關的程序來照期間來走另外就是這裡有點也要跟部長這個反應因為我想這次花蓮地震之後造成我們那個屏東公路整個車流量整個塞在我們西部包含我們屏東出現這個有史以來破紀錄的車流量"},{"start":261.6,"end":286.594,"text":"像這個4月4號那天光是一個南下路段5.3萬的車流量那從獅子的草埔隧道到豐港10公里車速為此10到15公里那我想未來未來是不是應該也要加快屏東的這個交通建設往東部未來是一個開拓往東部走的一個很重要的一個路徑這部分部長的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":287.194,"end":315.476,"text":"現在這樣我跟委員報平南平南他到鴻港的時候一個就是往台九線然後一個往二六嘛事實上在這裡就往東部跟往墾丁的已經分散了所以那另外就是南北公路的拓寬事實上我們已經進行很久現在剩下幾段也在拓寬我想他最大的應該是在平南快速道路在鴻港地區的分流分流以後我覺得就是狀況會比較好一點"},{"start":315.996,"end":327.169,"text":"所以我們來加速,我覺得平壤快道是裡面最重要的部分對,這部分邀請我們也要加快啦,因為畢竟這個東部如果出現狀況的時候往西部,在屏東過花東是一條很好的路啦這裡我們來加速,謝謝謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"151315","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151315","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016276beb7f1113a062d30e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c9404bd65743de01b585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"12:11:17 - 12:19:23","影片長度":"00:08:06","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":486,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:19:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:11:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":375,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（12時11分）謝謝主席，我們先請部長。"],["主席：好，請王部長。"],["王部長國材：王委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：部長好。相見的日子不多了，但是施政還是延續的。首先還是要請教，一開始來談地震之後臺鐵445車次在4月10日一樣有遇到擦撞落石的問題，交通部的說法是因為這一段評估認為不是高風險路段，所以沒有安裝相關的偵測機制。但是部長，不管是臺鐵公司或是公路局，應該都是屬於交通部轄下單位，是吧？"],["王部長國材：對，沒錯。"],["黃委員健豪：我為什麼特別提到公路局，貴部公路局提供蘇花改、蘇花安的相關報告裡面提到，台9線160K路段的落石區，在蘇花安評估的時候，基本上公路局認為這一段有落石的風險，但是臺鐵公司覺得這一段非屬落石高風險路段。本席今天特別提出來，是因為同屬交通部，我們一直希望政府的橫向聯繫要做好，當然如果今天事前的橫向聯繫有做好，我想就不會有公路局說這邊是落石區，結果臺鐵覺得這邊是非屬落石高風險路段。這二份同樣都是政府的報告，出自同一個部，還沒有跨部會喔，還是同一個部裡的。所以我想拜託一下，這種事情不要再發生了，因為其實自從2021年太魯閣號事件之後，全臺灣大家都很關心軌道運輸的安全性，希望在偵測機制能夠更加落實，更加去執行這個案子。包含今天談到落石區的問題，部長，你可不可以回應一下，未來在評估是不是落石高風險路段的時候，你們還會依據什麼標準？各單位之間後續有沒有整合的作業可以執行？"],["王部長國材：很謝謝黃委員的指教。的確這一次在臺鐵自己的邊坡，它覺得是沒有問題的，可是上面台9線的部分，公路局認為在蘇花安的範圍內，落石從公路邊坡掉到臺鐵的軌道，過去的確沒有思考到這樣的狀況。由於花蓮這次有八百多次的主震跟餘震，未來這個地方，比如公路的東西會不會掉到鐵路上，這很重要。我已經有跟兩個局長談，我們下一階段是做38處的告警系統，如果要增加，比如這個地方因為地震以後地質和地貌都改變了，我們會支持。委員提的這個課題的確是我們現在面臨到，也要積極處理的課題。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長謝謝。人民安全還是非常重要，尤其像你們現在提到正在進行中的鐵路邊坡維護與管理規範草案，是2023年12月9日才提出來，也就是去年年底提出的，這個草案其實也是源自於當初太魯閣號出事之後，才會提出這個相關的規範草案，想問一下這個草案目前進度到哪裡？2021年發生之後，到2023年年底才提出，中間隔了兩年多，現在已經2024年4月，快要月底了，這個草案到底什麼時候才會審議完成，然後送進立法院？"],["王部長國材：這個是部頒，現在交通部在複審，我們會加速來審查。"],["黃委員健豪：多加速？你們每次都說加速，兩年多了，你離職之前會不會提出來？"],["王部長國材：年底，但是我覺得應該要再加速。"],["黃委員健豪：你離職之前有沒有辦法提出來？畢竟這是你任內發生的事情嘛。"],["王部長國材：因為它有專家審查的機制，我加速啦，我來加速。"],["黃委員健豪：好啦，沒關係，不為難你。我是希望儘快，如果再來一次，邊坡如果沒有維護好，如果再發生意外，其實這都是人命的損失，我真的要誠摯地拜託。"],["王部長國材：好。"],["黃委員健豪：接下來談到我們今天的主題，國道六號東延花蓮的問題，我想先跟部長確認一個消息，這次花蓮的地震，在沿線都有很多損傷，我想問一下隧道裡面有沒有傳出災情？"],["王部長國材：蘇花改的部分沒有，蘇花改的隧道沒有災情。"],["黃委員健豪：中橫這一段隧道內部有沒有災情？"],["王部長國材：明隧道應該都有擋到落石。"],["黃委員健豪：好，為什麼特別提這個，今天為什麼特別提到國道六段東延花蓮要做路廊，就在這次地震之後，我們發現按照現代的工程，相對於直接遇到落石，在隧道裡比較能夠保護用路人的安全。我想問，以能高隧道為例，技術上工程面能不能做到？單純就工程面、技術面來說，先不管環評這些行政流程，我先了解一下，就現代的科技、現代的工程技術，做這樣的隧道可不可行？做不做得到？"],["趙局長興華：跟委員報告，所有的隧道沒有打不通的，但是到底要怎麼來做，必須要有審慎的思考。"],["黃委員健豪：我接受要審慎思考。我現在舉個例子，1996年瑞士要做阿爾卑斯山脈的聖哥達基線隧道，1996年就開始要做，1998年開始執行，2016年通車。大家回想一下，其實阿爾卑斯山也有地震的問題，瑞士在上個世紀末覺得在技術上可以做，也就做了，到前幾年才通車，十年前正式通車。所以我才問以臺灣的地質環境跟工程面來，技術上能不能做到？當然過程中要去評估、要做環評，我都可以理解。人家在20年、30年前在技術上就評估可以做，到了現在，而且又加上花蓮的震災，我剛才提到，確實這次地震當中，發現所有有機會獲救的這群人，他們都是躲在隧道直接獲救，所以我們期望這段危險的路廊如果能夠透過隧道的方式解決，提供花東地區不管是經濟也好，民生問題也好，能夠有一條回家的道路。交通部是不是能夠儘快來執行相關的工程？"],["王部長國材：我跟委員報告，我沒有反對啦！我剛才講，我正向來進行這件事。剛剛談到能高隧道，最重要的是要怎麼挖這個隧道，當然不能經過岩爆的地區，所以我們現在正在做地質調查，找路廊也是這個原因。我個人是覺得整個東延案我們加速來進行，但是我是希望循我們原來的程序加速進行。"],["黃委員健豪：好，部長謝謝。我還是要強調，25年前歐洲就做了，打通這個隧道，長達60公里的道路，我想臺灣應該在工程面、技術面和科學上是可行的。謝謝。"],["王部長國材：謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員雪生）：謝謝黃健豪委員。","在此先作宣告，本日有委員提出臨時提案1案，稍後在所有登記委員發言、詢答完畢以後，隨即處理臨時提案。","另外，後面工作人員，現在12點20分了，發便當好不好？我們邊質詢邊吃便當。因為不是12點20分就結束，下面繼續開會，還有逐條審查。所以你們方便就發，沒關係。","現在請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃仁","許智傑","陳培瑜","沈伯洋"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1133001_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.0259687500000005,"end":7.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.24909375,"end":9.227843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.395968750000002,"end":13.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.83471875,"end":32.970968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.66971875,"end":17.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.35284375,"end":19.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.739093750000002,"end":31.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.74721875,"end":44.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.087218750000005,"end":46.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.94346875,"end":49.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.33534375,"end":52.697843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.91721875,"end":53.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.13659375,"end":53.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.28846875,"end":53.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.77784375,"end":55.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.81971875,"end":58.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.705343750000004,"end":69.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.34909375000001,"end":73.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.15034375,"end":74.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.88846875,"end":77.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.74034375000001,"end":91.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.06721875000001,"end":118.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.18971875000001,"end":122.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.35784375,"end":129.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.98534375,"end":135.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.43596875,"end":139.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.24971875,"end":162.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.90846875,"end":168.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.62909375,"end":172.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.47659375,"end":178.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.09159375000002,"end":184.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.86284375000002,"end":194.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.98784375000002,"end":227.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.87721875000003,"end":232.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.20971875,"end":237.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.36096875,"end":240.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.77409375000002,"end":241.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.38971875000001,"end":245.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.16971875000002,"end":246.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.65471875000003,"end":250.25346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.57409375,"end":252.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.08034375000003,"end":254.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.48909375000002,"end":259.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.34034375000005,"end":265.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.52534375,"end":286.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.36159375,"end":291.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.30596875000003,"end":293.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.09471875,"end":296.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.67659375,"end":298.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.90409375,"end":300.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.04721875,"end":304.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.43909375000004,"end":307.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.43846875,"end":309.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.48034375000003,"end":317.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.07409375000003,"end":318.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.35659375,"end":323.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.33471875000004,"end":328.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.43096875000003,"end":334.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.57784375,"end":335.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.14721875000004,"end":338.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.56034375,"end":340.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.60221875,"end":342.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.57659375000003,"end":345.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.54659375,"end":349.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.84971875,"end":353.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.34721875,"end":352.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.92096875000004,"end":352.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.56221875,"end":364.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.47596875000005,"end":370.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.43284375,"end":376.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.37284375,"end":381.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.55784375,"end":382.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.38034375,"end":385.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.29971875,"end":386.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.39659375,"end":388.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.74659375000005,"end":391.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.76721875000004,"end":406.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.06034375,"end":407.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.74784375,"end":440.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.73846875000004,"end":465.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.08471875000004,"end":472.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.61534375,"end":485.76096875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.066,"end":30.816,"text":"好,謝謝我們主席喔。那我們一樣先請部長。好,王部長。王議員好。嗨,部長好。這個相見日子不多了喔。但是我們這個施政還是延續的啦。首先當然是要來請教一下,我一開始來談這個地震之後,我想這個台鐵445車次在4月10號的時候一樣有遇到這個擦撞的這個落實的問題。那當然這個"},{"start":33.783,"end":54.871,"text":"交通部的說法是因為這一段沒有安裝就是這一段評估認為不是這個高風險路段所以沒有安裝這個相關的偵測機制但是部長這個我想不管是台鐵公司或是說我們的公路局應該都是屬於交通部狹下單位吧是吧好那我們看下一張喔"},{"start":55.988,"end":74.104,"text":"為什麼特別提到公路局啊這個是貴部公路局在提供這個蘇花改、蘇花安的相關的這個報告裡面提到台九線160K路段的落實區在這個蘇花安的評估的時候基本上公路局認為這一段是有落實的風險"},{"start":75.144,"end":91.301,"text":"但是台鐵公司卻覺得這一段沒有這個是非屬落實高風險路段那本席今天提出來是因為這個同屬交通部我們一直希望說政府的橫向聯繫要做好那當然如果今天事前的橫向聯繫有做好那我想"},{"start":92.102,"end":121.021,"text":"你們就不會說這邊是這個公共局覺得是落實區結果台鐵覺得這邊是非屬落實高層路段這邊都是同樣都是政府的報告都出自同一個部還沒有跨部會還是點部裡面的所以我就講說就是拜託一下就我覺得這種事情不要再發生了因為其實自從2021年泰魯格號事件之後大家全台灣都很關心說關於軌道運輸的部分的安全性在偵測機制上面能夠更加落實"},{"start":122.483,"end":138.685,"text":"更加的去執行這個案子。那半話說今天提到的落實區的問題部長你可以回應一下未來在評估是不是高風險路段落實高風險路段的時候你們還會依據什麼樣的標準各單位之間後續有沒有整合的作業可以執行"},{"start":139.326,"end":160.114,"text":"是。很謝謝黃委員的指教。就是說的確這一次在台鐵自己的邊坡他覺得是沒有問題的可是在上面的這個台九的部分公路局是他等於在樹花庵的這個範圍內那從這一個公路的邊坡掉到台鐵的軌道在過去他們的確沒有思考到這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":162.875,"end":179.036,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":179.036,"end":194.889,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":195.029,"end":215.074,"text":"好部長謝謝就希望說這個人民的安全是非常重要因為像你們現在提到說這個正在進行中的鐵路遍佈維護與管理規範草案這個是2023年12月29號的提出來也就去年年底提出來了但是這個草案其實也是源自於當初這個泰魯格號出事之後我想才會提出這個相關的規範草案"},{"start":215.734,"end":241.372,"text":"那想問一下這個目前的進度到哪裡因為你2021年發生之後到底2023年才提出年底才提出中間隔了兩年多三年現在2024年已經4月了很快要月底了所以這個草案到底什麼時候才會審議完成然後送進立法院裡面這個是不頒現在交通部在互審我們要加速來來來審查互審多加速"},{"start":242.495,"end":259.081,"text":" 你們每次都說加速啊。兩年多了。年底喔。再加速一點好了。你離之前要被提出來。但是我覺得應該再加速。我只問你離之前。你離之前也沒有提出來。畢竟這個是你的任內發生的事情嗎?"},{"start":261.374,"end":286.368,"text":"好,因為他有那個專家審查的機制,我教數了,我來教數。好啦,沒關係啦,這個不為難你喔,我是希望盡快,因為如果再來一次喔,我想這個邊坡如果沒有維護好,如果再發生意外,其實這都是人命的損失喔,我要真的要誠摯來拜託。好,那接下來來談到我們這個今天主題要談到國道六號東延花蓮的問題。我想先跟部長確認一個消息喔,確認一個事情,這一次的這個花蓮的這個地震的問題,"},{"start":287.789,"end":299.662,"text":"在沿線都有很多的損傷。那我想問一下,隧道裡面有沒有傳出災情?蘇阿改的部分沒有。蘇阿改沒有。就是蘇阿改的隧道沒有災情。那那個中橫?"},{"start":301.289,"end":328.541,"text":"蘇花公……那個中環這一段有沒有……隧道內部有沒有出現在一起?好,為什麼特別提這個?就是其實今天為什麼特別提到國道六號東延花蓮要做這個路廊其實為什麼要就在這個事件之後我們發現隧道按照現代的工程它可能相對於直接遇到落石隧道裡面其實它相對來講是比較能夠保護這個用路安全的"},{"start":329.505,"end":337.835,"text":"那基本上我想問一下到底在這個能高隧道以這個能高隧道為例技術上工程面上能不能做到"},{"start":338.544,"end":364.192,"text":"他主要齁,能夠算應該是17日沒有,純單純就工程面技術面上我們先不管環評這些行政流程我先瞭解一下就現代的科技現代的工程技術做這樣子的隧道是可不可行的做不做得到跟委員報告齁那在一般的做的一個隧道的話齁那沒有說打不通的但是說就是說他一個到底要怎麼來做齁他必須要有審慎的一個思考"},{"start":365.526,"end":391.146,"text":"我結束後要神聖思考我先要舉個例子1996年瑞士在做阿爾賓斯山脈的聖戈達基縣隧道的時候1996年就開始要做了1998、1999開始執行2016年通車當然回想一下其實阿爾賓斯山它也是有地震的它有地震的問題那它在上個世紀末它就在技術上覺得可以做也就做了"},{"start":391.826,"end":406.918,"text":"到前幾年來把它通車但時間起來正式的通車所以我才接著問說以台灣的這個地質環境跟這個工程面來講技術上能不能做到那當然過程裡面要去評估要去做這些事情我都我都可以理解我知道說人家"},{"start":408.64,"end":424.5,"text":"這個幾年二十年前三十年前的技術上就評估可以做那到了現在而且又加上我們花蓮的這震災再加上我剛提到的隧道裡面確實在這一次的震災當中發現所有的可能有結果獲救的這一群人他們都是躲在這個隧道之間來獲救"},{"start":425.581,"end":440.197,"text":"所以我們期望說這個這段危險的路廊如果能夠透過隧道的方式來解決也提供給花東地區不管經濟也好不管是他的民生問題也好能夠有一條回家的道路是不是能夠盡快的來執行相關的工程市長"},{"start":442.538,"end":460.503,"text":"我沒有反對啦,我正向來進行這件事情那剛才談到的這種能夠隧道最重要就是說你的路廊你要怎麼挖這個隧道你當然不能經過那一種什麼延爆的地區所以我們現在正在做這個地址的調查找路廊也是這個原因"},{"start":461.423,"end":484.515,"text":"那我個人是覺得這個整個東延案我們就加速來進行但是我是希望是循我們原來的程序加速進行部長謝謝我才要強調25年前這個歐洲就做了打通這個隧道長達60公里的這個道路那我想這個台灣應該在工程面技術面科學上是可行的好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151295","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151295","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627bd983004365009ea0e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c94513549caf9a0d0ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"12:03:47 - 12:11:08","影片長度":"00:07:21","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":441,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:11:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:03:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":358,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（12時3分）謝謝主席。請部長。"],["主席：王部長。"],["王部長國材：林委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：部長，本席個人對國道六號東延是贊成的，尤其是本席上禮拜天特別去了一趟花蓮，當本席看到那個橋墩被地震震倒，更不用說天王星大樓等其他狀況，本席就知道對整個花蓮來說，這一次的地震的確影響很大。當然，有很多人把這次地震拿來和九二一地震相比，但是相對來說，這次地震的強度對花蓮的影響是非常深遠的。","所以本席贊成國道六號東延，主要的原因在於4月3日之前，我們是希望幫助臺灣東部發展，但是現在其實有一個更迫切的因素是救人，人家說要致富先修路，要救人可能也要先修路。","剛剛我在研究室聽到之前不少委員的發言，我發現一件事，就是我們針對這個案子先不要預設立場，是不是能夠比較實質先執行，然後才知道是否可行。甚至這樣講，我剛剛在研究室，是因為要針對基隆八斗子突堤碼頭開一個協調會，八斗子突堤碼頭如果在去年或前年疫情前開始做的話，可能只需要8,000萬元，這是經濟部漁業署的案子，但是現在我問的時候就直接要到1億2,000萬元以上，也就是說整個多出50%的費用，因為原物料的上漲。同樣的，現在看到國道六號東延這個案子，我們今天不趕快進行，很有可能明天或是明後年，再過3年搞不好又因為原物料上漲，現在不只是疫情之後，我們遇到俄烏戰爭，又遇到以阿戰爭，所以我覺得這個案子儘快進行會比較好。","另外一方面，我也必須幫我們花蓮的鄉親難民請願，那天我有去一個會，不能講記者會，應該是說明會，請幾位災民代表出來講話，他們提出了好幾個訴求，我記得比較主要的五個。第一個，花蓮主要是以觀光業為主，他們很希望交通部可以站出來，因為交通部不是只有管交通，還有管觀光，未來能夠幫旅客的旅遊工具做出實質補貼，像是哩程數補貼之類，讓旅遊的人會比較有意願，利用交通工具來到花蓮。","第二個是大客車，現在花蓮的觀光業基本上全面斷炊，大客車業者就很擔心，因為好不容易才熬過疫情，現在大客車很需要比照疫情的時候來補貼或免稅，今年可以免牌照稅、燃料稅之類的。希望交通部可以體恤花蓮大客車有這樣的狀況。","第三點，他們有提出來，是不是能夠建請交通部進行研究所謂複合式鐵公路的聯營，讓所有旅客過來花蓮的時候可以比較方便。","第四點是有關民宿業者，他們也是有提到因為疫情才剛過，我們有一個很好的先例，不管是地震還是疫情，都算是天災的一種。在這個情況之下，民宿是不是可以比照疫情做出補助，他們比較具體的說，業者提出來能不能在這一年之內補助民宿50,000元或一個月50,000元之類的。這是交通部跟中央政府的權限，但是我會提出來，是他們當下直接跟我講的。","第五個，他們有提到國內外觀光旅客來花蓮的時候，是不是可以比照SARS而不是疫情做出補助。他們就直接提了，現在很多人不敢去花蓮，因為花蓮現在的狀況其實滿讓人家擔心，什麼時候有餘震不知道；而且我們也清楚知道，聽說太魯閣國家公園要復育到本來的狀況，可能需要至少5年以上時間，才有可能把一些基本的步道修好。這些事情其實是這些災民直接向我反映的，我會希望基於過去三年疫情期間，我們常聽到一句話「同島一命」，其實現在全臺灣都是臺灣人，都是中華民國的國民，是全體臺灣人一起幫助花蓮的時候了。中央政府尤其是交通部，正是主管交通建設，也是主管觀光建設，這時候應該做出領頭羊的姿態，幫助花蓮渡過這次難關。甚至這樣講，大破大立，國道六號東延可以把危機化為轉機，實質上把臺灣東部好好發展，促進整個區域平衡，甚至把花蓮變成所謂亞洲的後花園。我想請部長把我剛剛講的話，儘量拿回去考量。以上。"],["王部長國材：謝謝林委員對於花蓮的關心。事實上最近鄭文燦副院長已經在召開整體跨部會協調，剛剛你談到的牌照稅、汽燃費等等，也有在討論，汽燃費是交通部管的，這部分是我們在處理。剛剛談到聯票也有討論，就是鐵路跟臺灣觀巴或是臺灣好行的套票，這也在處理。","另外我跟委員報告，現在觀光署已經提出三波初步方案，第一個包括旅宿業的融資、利息的補貼，還有相關的稅捐減免，這是第一波。第二波，現在受災戶有的住在外面，讓他去住旅館，做一些補貼。第三個就是觀光產業的振興方案，包括自由行跟團客，現在都有提出方案，但是我希望觀光署再寫完整一點。這在行政院是一整個大的package在討論，由各部會提出來，副院長已經召開好幾次會議，我沒記錯的話應該是明天會確定。","我想花蓮現在最需要觀光復甦或振興的時刻，交通部現在已經動起來，我們會全力來協助。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝林沛祥委員。","接下來請黃健豪委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃仁","許智傑","陳培瑜","沈伯洋"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1133001_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.447218750000001,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.51846875,"end":13.058468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.37846875,"end":18.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.67784375,"end":19.184093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.42034375,"end":19.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.48784375,"end":19.605968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.605968750000002,"end":19.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.70721875,"end":72.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.66284375,"end":33.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.62721875,"end":138.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.65471875,"end":349.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.69284375,"end":165.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.07784375,"end":186.12846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.97034375000004,"end":334.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.74846875000003,"end":350.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.15346875,"end":350.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.03096875,"end":352.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.19534375,"end":352.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.46534375000005,"end":361.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.98284375000003,"end":363.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.09221875000003,"end":371.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.89721875000004,"end":370.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.71971875,"end":377.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.91284375000004,"end":383.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.73471875,"end":387.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.44721875000005,"end":388.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.96596875,"end":394.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.92284375,"end":397.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.24721875,"end":406.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.98846875000004,"end":412.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.37159375000005,"end":419.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.40846875000005,"end":424.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.60596875000005,"end":438.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.46034375000005,"end":439.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.90721875,"end":441.19409375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.468,"end":11.076,"text":"好,謝謝主席,請部長王部長"},{"start":18.723,"end":39.689,"text":"部長我個人是對這個國道六號東移我是贊成的尤其是我上禮拜天特地跑去花蓮了一趟當我看到那個橋墩都已經被那個地震震到的時候其實我就知道更不用敢講說天王星啊其他的狀況我就知道這整個花蓮對他們來說"},{"start":40.589,"end":42.39,"text":"〈國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案〉"},{"start":61.546,"end":76.403,"text":" 4月3日之前我們是因為希望能夠幫助東部台灣的發展但是現在的話其實有一個更迫切的東西也就叫做救人人家說要致富先修路那要救人可能也要先修路"},{"start":76.963,"end":91.862,"text":"而我會剛剛我在那個研究室裡面聽了我們不少之前委員的發言我發現一件事就是說我們針對這案子先不要預設立場是不是能夠比較實質的才要先執行然後才知道是否能夠可行"},{"start":92.603,"end":114.48,"text":"甚至這樣講我剛剛在我研究室是因為要開一個協調會針對基隆的一個八斗子突堤碼頭可是八斗子突堤碼頭如果去年或前在疫情前開始做的話可能只需要八千萬這經濟部漁業署的案子但是現在我問的時候就直接要到一億兩千萬以上也就是說整個這個多出50%"},{"start":115.401,"end":139.599,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":139.739,"end":160.804,"text":"那另外一方面呢我也必須幫我們花蓮的鄉親這次的難民講他們幫他們請願啦因為那天我有去的時候有特地有一個有一個有一個這個算是不能講記者會而是說說明會請他們幾位這些他們的那個災民代表出來講話他們提出了好幾個訴求我記得比較主要的五個"},{"start":161.744,"end":185.212,"text":"那第一個是他們很希望因為花蓮主要是以觀光業為主他們就很希望說我們交通部可以站出來因為交通部不是只有管交通還要管觀光能夠的話幫我們的幫這些未來他們來旅客的旅遊的工具來做出實質上的補貼像說里程數補貼啦之類讓他們旅遊的人會比較有意願在交通工具上面來到花蓮"},{"start":186.112,"end":212.664,"text":"那第二個是尤其是他們大客車因為現在花蓮的觀光業基本上全面斷吹的時候他們大客車他們就很擔心說這個因為當上前兩好不容易才熬過疫情那現在他們大客車很多時候很需要說這個時候跟比照疫情的時候來去做補貼甚至做出免稅像說今年免牌照稅燃料稅之類的希望說交通部可以體恤說花蓮這邊大客車有這樣的狀況"},{"start":214.645,"end":229.448,"text":"第三點他們有提出來是說是不是能夠在這邊提交通部建請交通部可以研究所謂的複合式的鐵公路的聯營讓說旅客可以過來過來花蓮的時候比較方便那第四點是有關民宿業者"},{"start":230.069,"end":256.535,"text":"民宿業者他們也是有提到說因為疫情才剛過我們有一個很好的先例不管是地震還是還是還是還是疫情都算是一種另類的都算是天災的一種那在這個情況之下呢民宿是不是可以比照疫情來去做出補助甚至他們講的比較具體點說能不能說在這半在這一年之內可不可以說他們當然是業者提出來說一年一個民宿可以補助五萬一個月補助五萬塊之類的"},{"start":257.515,"end":277.855,"text":"那是交通部跟中央政府的權限但是我會提出來是他們當下直接跟我講的第五個就是說他們有提到說國內外的觀光旅客來花蓮的時候是不是可以比照SARS而不是疫情是比照SARS的時候來去做出補助因為現在他們就直接提了現在很多人不敢去花蓮"},{"start":278.596,"end":307.645,"text":"因為花蓮現在的狀況其實蠻讓人家擔心什麼時候餘震不知道而且我們也清楚我們也清楚知道聽說太魯閣國家公園需要復育到本來的狀況就可能需要至少五年以上的時間才有可能把一些步道基本步道把它修好所以這些事情其實是他們這些災民直接向我反映的那我會希望說基於我們在過去兩年對不起過去三年的疫情時間我們常聽到一句話叫做同島一命"},{"start":308.405,"end":332.526,"text":"那其實現在是全台灣其實都是台灣人都是中華民國的國民是台灣人全體台灣人一起幫助花蓮的時候了而中央政府尤其是交通部就是主管交通建設也是主管觀光建設這時候應該做出領頭羊的姿態然後來幫助這次花蓮度過這個難關而甚至這樣講大破大立這個"},{"start":334.267,"end":352.697,"text":"國道六號東宜可以把危機化為轉機然後實質上把臺灣東部好好發展促進整個區域平衡甚至把花蓮變成所謂亞洲的後花園我想請部長這就是請部長把我剛剛講的話盡量拿回去考量好以上我要回了嗎好"},{"start":353.337,"end":372.584,"text":"我想很謝謝林委員對花蓮的關心。事實上我們最近在政務站副委員長已經在召開。他是整體跨部會的。剛才你談到的這個比如說牌照稅、契然費等等的也有在討論。那契然費是交通部管的。所以我們這部分是我們在處理。"},{"start":373.644,"end":388.264,"text":"那剛才談到那個聯票也討論就鐵路跟我們台灣關巴或是台灣好行這種套票這個在處理另外我跟委員報告現在公安署已經提出有三波的這種初步方案"},{"start":389.105,"end":404.311,"text":"就是說第一個包括禮數月的融資還有利息的一個補貼還有相關的這個稅件的減免這第一波第二波就是他們會把現在受災受災戶友的住在外面讓他去住旅館做一些補貼"},{"start":405.351,"end":421.514,"text":"第二個第三個就是光彎產業的這個振興方案這個包括自由行跟團客他現在都提出方案但是我希望這個光屬再把它寫完整一點那這個整個在行政院是一個大的package在討論各位提出來"},{"start":421.834,"end":441.169,"text":" ︎"}]}},{"id":"151294","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151294","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627c6d30d62860b93c50e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c945eaf658b2cb262835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"11:51:28 - 12:03:37","影片長度":"00:12:09","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":729,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:03:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:51:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":333,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（11時51分）主席，各位立委同仁，各位媒體女士先生，交通部王部長及各位官員。我們再一次回顧，20年前就不斷在立法院呼籲，什麼時候才能讓2,300萬人都有一條安全回家的路？但是我們很汗顏，直到今時今日，臺灣早就是一個已開發國家，我們並不是孟加拉，更不是衣索比亞，而且臺灣島就這麼小，但是所有的基礎建設還沒有完成。","這幾十年來在立法院不斷呼籲，當然，大家有各種不同的看法，我們都予以尊重，但是興建道路就是要給人走的，為什麼一個國家卻像是兩個國度？這是我們一直很好奇的。每天大家出門都希望平安的回家，何忍看東臺灣的鄉親、家人們在這樣的道路上行走？而且這個地區還處在歐亞板塊和菲律賓板塊的擠壓之下，有這麼多的天災地變，有颱風，就是從東岸來，這裡也是主要的地震帶。","國家應該早就要有一套長遠因應的辦法，這個地方早就應該興建這些道路。我們再次強調，這次的0403大地震，蘇花改所有的路廊都完好如初，是最安全的，而中橫台8線能夠倖免於難的，都是躲在明隧道裡面。為什麼我們國家的國民還要忍受這樣怠惰的政府？忽略這裡早就該做好的基礎建設？","這不只是交通問題，不光是交通平權、人命無價，為什麼要讓我們的人民曝險？而且這次包括國外的觀光客也不幸罹難，各縣市的好朋友來花蓮協助時，也碰到台9線、台8線崩山，我們看一下這段影片，為什麼臺灣還可以容忍這樣的生活環境？","（播放影片）"],["傅委員崐萁：這是崇德走山，台9線的崩山是這麼可怕，有多少人第一時間就被活埋？影片中的人開始倒車逃命。另外這是蘇花公路，我們的家人每天回家、出門都要走這樣的路，大家有沒有同理心？能不能將心比心？","所以本席要請教一下，為什麼臺灣還有人民在這種環境當中生活？大家的同理心在哪裡？台8線還能走嗎？新的路廊早就應該要做了，讓大家都能夠平平安安在臺灣生活，讓這裡成為一個共同的生活圈。","先請教部長，2020年3月4日，就在這個委員會，我們通過國道六號的探勘啟動計畫，2020年3月4日就通過，委員會也做了主決議，林佳龍部長敬表尊重也支持，在本委員會通過以後，這個路廊探勘什麼時候可以完成？"],["王部長國材：去年年底完成委託，預計115年完成。這一次我的確看到整個台8線……"],["傅委員崐萁：委託金額是多少？"],["王部長國材：2,000萬元左右。"],["傅委員崐萁：1,800萬元。這樣路廊就可以探勘完成嗎？什麼時候可以完成路廊探勘、地質研究？"],["王部長國材：現在是預定115年年底。"],["傅委員崐萁：也就是2026年年底。本席再次強調，2020年年初通過的決議，要到2026年年底才能夠完成地質研究，之後還要進行可行性評估，等於是要再加5年、8年，到時候不曉得改朝換代多少次了，交通部就是用這樣的心態在面對這些事情。部長，這是留給兒孫走的路，套一句韓院長對陳建仁院長說的，完工的時候，我們已經不在現在的位置，但是這樣可以給代代兒孫一條安全的路，對於韓院長這樣的心情，陳建仁院長也表示支持。","我們希望交通部所屬單位能夠儘快完成這件事情，這不只是安全的問題，更是人道的問題，所以不要想說還要完成地質調查報告、可行性研究，鄭文燦副院長和本席討論過這件事情，他說環島高鐵不是不做，我們要做啊！臺北延伸到宜蘭要做，高雄延伸到屏東也要做，行政院也同意要做，但本席就要問了，什麼時候做？其實BOT就可以了嘛！因為臺灣高鐵就是BOT啊！","為什麼政府又突然跳進來要自己做？如果是BOT，可以同時從10個面向進行，10個路段分別發包，這樣立刻就可以完成嘛！政府沒有能力做就委託民間做，政府不願意出資本，就委託民間來做，這是很簡單的事情，我們希望這次不要再繼續空喊口號。而且關於國道六號打通，其實條例中寫的很清楚，就是促進民間參與，不管是國內或是國際BOT，因為他們也要做地質研究調查、路廊探勘、可行性研究，這樣不比我們的政府快10倍？政府要有誠意面對這個問題。部長，可以嗎？"],["王部長國材：這次的確是看到台9線和台8線的脆弱。蘇花安的環評4月底就送進去了，121年要完成。國道六號的東延，事實上上次委員就有談到BOT，我也和局長談過。另外就是縮短時間，路廊探勘和地質調查是不是可以和後面的可行性評估一起做，把作業的時間縮短，我剛才也和局長說了，因為有些項目的確在可行性研究時是可以做的，這部分我會和局長討論。這次整個台8線的脆弱，的確讓延伸案更有其必要性，我自己也有這樣的感覺。但是剛才談到，因為有些行政程序需要處理，這部分我們都會加強。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，這就是政府的行政效率，2020年3月4日通過，2026年年底才會完成，一條路線的地質調查就要6年9個月的時間。唉！部長，交給民間來做啦！效率絕對比政府好，不要用所謂的行政程序來卡關。2016年就應該要做的事情，到現在2024年，蘇花安的環評還被退件，還要求補件，已經8年了！今天看到這樣的路況，大家應該拿出良心面對我們的國人。"],["王部長國材：再向委員說明，縱然是BOT的案子，相關的資料也要交給投資廠商，包括剛才談到的地質相關資料，並不是BOT就可以把這些跳過，因為廠商對這個案子也不了解，這部分我們已經在做了。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，國外有很多這類的案件，請你看一下臺灣高鐵當時是怎麼興建的，也是決標以後開始規劃、處理，從85年到87年、88年，包括什麼時候動工、決標，請你回去看一下這些資料。我們要再次表達，政府的心態是什麼？有沒有好好的用良心對待人民？"],["王部長國材：我們加速進行。"],["傅委員崐萁：部長，過去大家在這裡相處的很好，以後我們也會很懷念你，但我們也希望在520之前，這些事情可以儘快進行，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好，我們加速。"],["主席：好，謝謝傅崐萁總召。","接下來請林委員沛祥發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃仁","許智傑","陳培瑜","沈伯洋"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1133001_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.679718750000001,"end":13.547843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.10471875,"end":16.011593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.09159375,"end":21.293468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.934718750000002,"end":22.930343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.11159375,"end":24.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.360343750000002,"end":26.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.52471875,"end":27.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.00971875,"end":29.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.49034375,"end":31.840343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.07659375,"end":33.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.93284375,"end":36.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.88596875,"end":40.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.509718750000005,"end":44.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.74971875,"end":46.352843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.82534375,"end":48.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.59721875,"end":51.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.955343750000004,"end":55.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.477843750000005,"end":57.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.40596875000001,"end":59.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.93284375,"end":62.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.99159375000001,"end":64.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.26971875000001,"end":66.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.81784375000001,"end":69.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.64034375,"end":70.99034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.62721875,"end":75.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.70659375000001,"end":81.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.43159375,"end":87.17346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.93284375,"end":89.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.09284375,"end":91.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.55659375,"end":94.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.62784375000001,"end":98.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.15471875,"end":101.73659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.74909375,"end":103.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.58846875,"end":107.69346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.78596875000001,"end":110.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.40596875000001,"end":112.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.92471875000001,"end":114.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.29971875000001,"end":117.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.71721875,"end":118.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.28659375000001,"end":120.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.81784375000001,"end":123.67409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.21409375,"end":125.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.52596875,"end":127.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.00659375,"end":130.54221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.99784375000002,"end":132.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.78659375,"end":133.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.59221875,"end":136.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.08971875,"end":137.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.89534375,"end":142.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.64971875,"end":145.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.32034375,"end":147.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.26096875000002,"end":149.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.72909375,"end":150.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.65284375000002,"end":154.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.82096875000002,"end":159.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.02284375000002,"end":161.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.71034375000002,"end":163.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.76909375,"end":164.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.88284375,"end":166.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.87409375000001,"end":168.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.13534375,"end":171.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.91971875000002,"end":172.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.87721875,"end":174.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.15971875000002,"end":176.86409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.42096875000001,"end":179.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.65596875,"end":186.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.10721875000002,"end":190.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.53596875000002,"end":198.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.67909375000002,"end":200.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.34971875000002,"end":202.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.88471875000002,"end":208.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.25096875000003,"end":213.09471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.16284375,"end":236.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.10784375000003,"end":249.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.62471875000003,"end":263.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.12909375000004,"end":263.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.66909375,"end":264.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.08721875000003,"end":289.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.25971875,"end":293.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.20846875,"end":297.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.92096875000004,"end":300.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.66534375000003,"end":316.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.43284375,"end":317.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.56346875,"end":320.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.68971875,"end":324.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.85346875000005,"end":327.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.30034375,"end":328.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.68409375000005,"end":331.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.43471875,"end":334.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.28659375,"end":337.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.34096875,"end":339.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.72034375000004,"end":342.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.38659375000003,"end":344.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.71096875,"end":347.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.31409375000004,"end":349.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.17034375000003,"end":351.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.68909375000004,"end":353.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.89534375,"end":355.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.87409375000004,"end":356.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.64596875,"end":358.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.43471875,"end":359.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.39659375,"end":361.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.65784375000004,"end":363.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.22284375000004,"end":371.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.98971875,"end":373.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.79096875000005,"end":378.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.25846875,"end":380.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.47784375000003,"end":384.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.93284375,"end":385.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.19846875,"end":389.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.93221875,"end":390.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.37909375000004,"end":392.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.11721875,"end":393.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.21846875,"end":393.74159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.55159375000005,"end":395.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.53034375000004,"end":396.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.47534375000004,"end":396.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.49221875,"end":396.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.62284375,"end":399.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.95534375000005,"end":404.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.48659375000005,"end":406.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.94221875000005,"end":407.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.87409375000004,"end":411.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.16909375,"end":412.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.33346875,"end":417.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.97409375,"end":420.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.11284375,"end":422.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.42471875,"end":424.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.14596875,"end":426.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.09909375,"end":429.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.64284375000005,"end":434.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.23721875,"end":438.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.87784375,"end":441.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.85221875,"end":441.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.13471875000005,"end":444.68721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.08784375000005,"end":447.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.65284375000005,"end":449.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.11659375000005,"end":452.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.97284375000004,"end":454.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.89221875000004,"end":457.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.47409375,"end":459.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.90409375,"end":462.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.79409375,"end":466.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.81034375,"end":473.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.67846875000004,"end":475.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.58534375000005,"end":477.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.44159375000004,"end":481.81221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.56721875000005,"end":483.95534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.20846875,"end":485.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.32221875000005,"end":487.26284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.81971875000005,"end":503.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.07034375,"end":506.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":508.13721875000005,"end":510.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":511.39409375,"end":512.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.0815937500001,"end":514.8872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.2709687500001,"end":520.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":521.58659375,"end":524.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.1765937499999,"end":527.4422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":527.8303437500001,"end":530.4965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.98596875,"end":545.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.5659687500001,"end":545.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.90346875,"end":546.0890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.2534687500001,"end":547.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.13096875,"end":550.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.3372187500001,"end":553.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.0078437500001,"end":553.1428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.2947187500001,"end":558.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.09971875,"end":594.9253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.51596875,"end":597.0178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.37221875,"end":599.1609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.73471875,"end":602.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.9409687500001,"end":611.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":610.7878437500001,"end":614.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.28971875,"end":612.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":614.7197187500001,"end":623.0559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":623.49471875,"end":626.5828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.2240937500001,"end":628.4897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":629.31659375,"end":629.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":630.4640937500001,"end":631.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.50596875,"end":634.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":635.4253437500001,"end":635.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":636.06659375,"end":637.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":638.56409375,"end":641.6184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.22596875,"end":642.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.8840937500001,"end":650.2922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":650.79846875,"end":651.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.5322187500001,"end":654.3928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":656.1140937499999,"end":658.1728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":658.94909375,"end":661.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.21034375,"end":661.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.51409375,"end":661.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":661.53096875,"end":663.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.03284375,"end":663.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.9778437500001,"end":664.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.0790937500001,"end":670.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.0147187500002,"end":672.9890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.17471875,"end":675.9422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":676.1784687500001,"end":679.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.05971875,"end":681.6628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":680.4309687500001,"end":681.6459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":681.6628437500001,"end":681.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.71346875,"end":682.9284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":681.73034375,"end":681.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":682.00034375,"end":682.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":682.9284687500001,"end":688.2609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.9622187500001,"end":683.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":689.5772187500002,"end":691.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":691.43346875,"end":692.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":693.25596875,"end":694.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":694.84221875,"end":695.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":696.4115937500001,"end":697.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":697.9809687500001,"end":700.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":700.9172187500001,"end":702.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.1784687500001,"end":703.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.5834687500001,"end":705.7434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":706.23284375,"end":707.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":707.8528437500001,"end":709.2534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":710.14784375,"end":712.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":713.40471875,"end":713.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":713.92784375,"end":715.5984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":714.2990937500001,"end":714.8390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":715.1765937499999,"end":717.6909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":718.5347187500001,"end":721.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":722.11221875,"end":723.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":723.5972187500001,"end":726.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.01034375,"end":727.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":728.17034375,"end":728.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":728.32221875,"end":728.54159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.024,"end":22.47,"text":"主席各位立委同仁各位媒體女士先生交通部王部長及各位官員我們再一次回顧不想從20年前不斷地在立法院不斷地呼籲"},{"start":24.187,"end":50.736,"text":"什麼時候才能夠給23百萬人都有一條安全回家的路但是我們很汗顏啊到即時今日台灣早就是一個已開發的國家我們並不是啊孟加拉更不是一所皮牙一個已開發國家台灣島就這麼小但所有的基礎建設都還沒有來完成而且幾十年來在立法院不斷的呼籲"},{"start":52.171,"end":81.227,"text":"當然大家都有各種不同的看法我們都尊重但是道路興建完成就是給人走的為什麼一個國家有兩種以上的國度這是我們一直很好奇每天大家出門都希望平安的回家何人啊看東台灣的鄉親讓家人們在這樣的道路上行走"},{"start":82.489,"end":107.373,"text":"而且又是在歐亞板塊跟菲律賓板塊的擠壓之下有這麼多的天災地變颱風來就從東岸來地震又是主要的地震帶國家早就一套長遠因應的辦法在這個地方早就應該來興建這些道路我們再次的強調在這一次的0403的大地震當中樹花改"},{"start":111.514,"end":127.615,"text":"所有的路廊都是完好如初最安全的而在台八線中橫台八線能夠幸免於難的都是躲在這個民粹道裡面"},{"start":129.082,"end":153.873,"text":"所以為什麼我們國家的國民還要忍受這樣的一個怠惰的政府忽略對這樣的一個地區早就應該做好的基礎建設。大家很難想像這不是交通問題,交通平權、人民無價。為什麼要讓我們人民在暴險當中"},{"start":155.885,"end":179.498,"text":"而且這一次也包括國外的觀光客也不惜得罹難還有各縣市的好朋友來到花蓮都碰到台九縣的崩山台八縣的崩山我們看一看這段影片到底為什麼我們的國家還可以容忍這樣的生活環境在台灣我們來看一下"},{"start":186.08,"end":212.971,"text":"從德台九線的崩山是這麼可怕這裡面有多少人在第一時間就被活埋了開始倒車逃命梳花公路"},{"start":237.531,"end":261.888,"text":"聽見警報聲響、駕駛油門吹落去、躲進隧道逃命直播差點沒命因為下一秒眼前景象讓車上的人不敢置信前方道路全坍塌、隨後滿天煙塵、席捲而來行車記錄器全被土石覆蓋、伸手不見、無止的恐怖景象有如世界末日般、駕駛前後遭到煽動"},{"start":288.134,"end":315.35,"text":"因為我們的家人每天回家跟出門都要走這樣的路我們的同理心、將心比心在哪裡?將心比心在哪裡?可以了,把它關掉"},{"start":318.69,"end":341.825,"text":"所以我要請教一下為什麼台灣還有這樣的人民在這種環境當中來生活我們大家的同理心在哪裡?台八線還能走嗎?新的路廊早就應該要做了讓大家都能夠平平安安在台灣成為一個共同的生活圈所以我這裡先表達請部長"},{"start":346.944,"end":373.375,"text":"請部長本席請教一下2020年3月4號就在這個委員會我們通過了國道六號的這個探勘啟動2020年3月4號就通過了主決議在委員會林佳龍部長競表尊重也支持在本委員會通過以後"},{"start":375.161,"end":399.361,"text":"現在路朗探勘到什麼時候可以完成?目前是去年年底完成委託115。那我是覺得在這一次我的確看到整個台北市……委託金額是多少錢?一千多少?一千八百萬。一千八百萬路朗就可以探勘完成嗎?"},{"start":403.024,"end":429.279,"text":"什麼時候可以完成路廊的探勘?地質研究?現在是115年底嗎?2026年年底北齊再一次強調2020年年初通過的決議要到2026年年底才能夠完成地質的研究還要再來可行性再加個五年、八年"},{"start":431.65,"end":459.734,"text":"那個都已經不曉得改朝換代多少次了。我想交通部就是用這樣的心態在面對這樣的事情。我們希望部長這是留給兒孫走的路。他要去韓院長跟陳建仁院長說完工的時候我們已經不在位子上但是給代代兒孫一條安全的路來走。"},{"start":460.97,"end":481.574,"text":"我想這樣的心情韓院長的心情陳建元院長也表示支持我們希望交通部所屬單位能夠盡快完成這個事情這不只是安全的問題更是人道的問題所以不要想說再來完成什麼地質調查報告可行性研究"},{"start":484.479,"end":506.016,"text":"陳 陳文燦副院長在跟我討論這個事情他說你看我們現在環島高鐵我們不是不做啊我們要做啊台北延伸到宜蘭要做啊高雄延伸到屏東要做啊行政院要做啊我說什麼時候輪到行政院來做你用BOT的案子就可以了嘛我說台灣高鐵就是BOT啊你為什麼政府又突然跳進來自己要來做"},{"start":508.178,"end":508.479,"text":"拜託民間來做"},{"start":526.346,"end":546.478,"text":"這很簡單的事情。我們希望這是不要再空耗下去。而且國道六號打通的事情在條例寫得很清楚。促進民間參與。不管是國內的BOT還是國際的BOT。人家來做地質的研究調查、路廊的三竿可信研究都不會比我們的政府要快10倍。所以我們還是誠意的來面對這個問題。"},{"start":551.377,"end":572.075,"text":"部長,可以嗎?我想說阿安。這次有提及看到台九線跟台八線的脆弱。我想說阿安121我們現在環評4月底就送進去。就121把它完成了。那這個國道六號的東延,事業讓上次委員談到VOT我也跟局長談過了。"},{"start":573.456,"end":595.452,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":595.832,"end":596.793,"text":" ﹝國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案．"},{"start":614.947,"end":640.734,"text":"二零二零年三月四號通過二零二六年年底才會完成前後竟然要花六年九個月的時間一個路線地質調查要六年九個月唉我覺得齁部長啊交給民間來做啦數效率絕對比政府好啦我想啊不要用所謂的行政程序來卡關"},{"start":643.268,"end":654.207,"text":"蘇花案到現在201616年就應該要做的事情到現在2024年蘇花案的環評還被退建還要求補建八年了"},{"start":656.141,"end":684.975,"text":"今天看到這樣的一個路況我們大家要拿出良心來面對我們的國人我跟委員再說明一個重染是BOT的案子你的相關的資料也要給投資廠商包括剛剛所談到的這些地質的一些相關資料並不是說突然跳到BOT去因為他對他也不了解我想這部分我們都現在國外的這種案件很多"},{"start":685.715,"end":712.551,"text":"你去看一下台灣高鐵當時怎麼興建的決標以後開始規劃開始處理85年到87年88年什麼時候動工什麼時候決標你回去看一下這些資料我們再一次的要表達政府的心態是什麼有沒有好好用良心來看待人民"},{"start":713.982,"end":715.243,"text":"我們加速進行。"}]}},{"id":"151293","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151293","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627314eeae72d6007490e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c9421d513256421d2e45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"11:37:44 - 11:45:06","影片長度":"00:07:22","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":442,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:45:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:37:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":303,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（11時37分）謝謝主席。有請交通部王部長。"],["主席（陳委員雪生）：王部長請。"],["王部長國材：魯委員好。"],["魯委員明哲：部長，首先，對於國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例，本席要表達支持，本席覺得這也是在表達我們對地方建設的決心。因為每次很多重大建設拿到桌上排序的時候，花東的很多交通建設可能因為價錢貴、工程有困難，永遠被擺在後面，所以這次我們也要展現決心。","第二個，長年來花東人回家的路型已經被定義，就是得到臺灣頭看看，和基隆鄉親打打招呼，要不然就是到臺灣尾和屏東鄉親打打招呼再回家，不是北繞就是南繞。我們對於建設工法、科技，不管是歐洲大陸或者對岸的大陸，在那些擁有大山、大水的地方，有多少地質比這個案子更困難的工程都可以做好？所以讓國道六號東延花蓮，讓花東人重新定義回家的路，個人是支持的。","0403地震讓花東地區的道路一度全部中斷，本席想問一下，今天臺鐵有出席嘛！因為大家都滿關心的，從2015年開始規劃設置邊坡落石的警告系統，當時說要做26處，結果本席上任的時候，原本預計的期程延期了，一直到2021年4月2日發生太魯閣事件，因為工程車從邊坡滑下去，大家才重新檢討，加速把這26個地方完工。4月3日大地震的時候，本席看到董事長報告，你原本是局長，現在擔任董事長，這些系統這次發揮了功效，阻止列車進入落石路段。26個告警系統中，有幾個有反映？"],["杜董事長微：0403那個時間點有一個系統示警。"],["魯委員明哲：26個裡面有一個發現。說真的，即使只有一處發現也很重要，因為的確促使列車停下來嘛！"],["杜董事長微：對，所以列車就停下來。"],["魯委員明哲：這樣就很有用啦！我們本來是想，問題大致解決了，因為哪裡比較危險，也是要尊重你們的專業。你們選了26個最危險的地方，而且系統也做好了，但是地震7天之後，剛才俊憲委員也說了，普悠瑪號又撞擊落石，而且是滿大的一顆落石，還好沒有掉在軌道正中間，但是也造成普悠瑪號滿大的損失，幸好沒有任何人員受傷。","本席想請教一下，你們說裝設這26處還不夠，因為落石處不是原本26個有裝設告警系統的地方。你們是4月10日撞到，但是你們的勞工董事，也是工會的秘書長卻說，其實在地震當天，就在距離現場不遠，也就是不屬於這26個重點區的地方，就已經有發生落石，2019年的時候也有發生落石。請教你，既然告警系統裝設的還不夠，你們現在要增設，因為有些地方也很危險，那我們再針對這個問題繼續糾結下去也沒有用啦！你們現在要增設38處，是不是有這個計畫？"],["杜董事長微：是的。"],["魯委員明哲：現在的進度如何？經費找到沒有？"],["杜董事長微：有的，經費都已經找到。現在這38處，我們預計會全部在明年年中完成。"],["魯委員明哲：明年年中會完成嗎？"],["杜董事長微：對。現階段我們會在6月完成發包，9月就會完成實體阻攔和一處示範性的告警系統。"],["魯委員明哲：關於地點的評估，本席相信除了專家之外，因為你們第一線的工班經年累月在那邊工作，所以他們是最了解的，我們希望這26處加上要裝設的38處，未來總共有64處，真的能夠讓臺鐵高風險路段保平安。最後請教鐵道局，只要1分鐘就好。","去年5月中捷因為隔壁建物施工吊臂墜落，發生1死14傷的事故，這個月桃園捷運也發生事故，還好那是比較小的C型鋼，剛好掉進軌道造成跳電，所以現在他們也在思考裝設異物入侵系統。因為臺鐵、高鐵經過很多地形複雜的區塊，但一般的捷運軌道大部分都是在地形比較穩定的區塊，所以早期全臺灣的捷運都沒有裝這個系統。部長，請你說一下，因為全臺灣的捷運現在也希望針對異物入侵軌道裝設監測系統，交通部和鐵道局可以支持嗎？"],["王部長國材：他們要提出計畫，這部分是不是請局長說明一下？"],["楊局長正君：因為捷運系統現在所做的異物偵測，是傾向在車上裝設，就像小客車這種所謂的固態雷達。"],["魯委員明哲：就是車載的，是不是？"],["楊局長正君：是，車載。這部分我們曾經洽詢全世界相關的主要系統商和顧問，目前這個部分的技術是不穩定的，也就是它的可靠度還沒有辦法達到非常穩定的狀態，非常容易造成誤告警，所以上次談這個案子的時候並沒有同意。"],["魯委員明哲：現在全臺灣的捷運公司都有提出這樣的需求，本席希望鐵道局有所回應，不管是使用車載系統的技術，或者在特定區域施工，框選出一個區塊在軌道放置這個系統，本席希望你們都能夠協助，好不好？"],["楊局長正君：好的。"],["魯委員明哲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：休息5分鐘。","休息（11時45分）","繼續開會（11時51分）"],["主席（林委員國成代）：現在繼續開會。","請傅委員崐萁發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃仁","許智傑","陳培瑜","沈伯洋"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1133001_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.8872187500000002,"end":3.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.95409375,"end":6.865343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.45596875,"end":7.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.77221875,"end":10.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.45971875,"end":11.117843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.94846875,"end":15.657218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.657218750000002,"end":15.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.67409375,"end":34.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.775343750000001,"end":15.825968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.64159375,"end":35.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.345968750000004,"end":40.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.48034375,"end":42.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.84284375,"end":59.835968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.478468750000005,"end":52.596593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.30846875,"end":62.485343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.99159375000001,"end":75.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.32284375,"end":78.34784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.70221875,"end":88.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.94534375,"end":91.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.21909375,"end":92.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.06284375,"end":96.48846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.79221875,"end":100.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.97721875,"end":105.53346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.92159375,"end":108.75659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.06034375,"end":137.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.32159375,"end":140.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.54909375,"end":155.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.80409375000002,"end":159.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.07784375,"end":159.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.51659375,"end":159.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.53346875,"end":159.60096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.60096875000002,"end":159.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.71909375,"end":159.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.82034375,"end":167.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.39721875,"end":178.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.74159375000002,"end":179.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.97346875000002,"end":189.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.12784375,"end":191.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.11909375000002,"end":195.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.57846875,"end":196.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.77221875,"end":198.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.63284375,"end":200.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.99534375000002,"end":203.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.74596875,"end":206.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.22221875000002,"end":207.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.11659375000002,"end":208.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.96034375000002,"end":210.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.56346875000003,"end":212.25096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.62221875,"end":214.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.54596875000001,"end":217.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.31346875000003,"end":250.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.81034375000002,"end":251.89034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.04221875000002,"end":259.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.17596875000004,"end":265.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.62659375000004,"end":266.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.66034375000004,"end":266.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.58846875,"end":266.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.90909375,"end":269.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.37284375,"end":277.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.18159375,"end":294.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.26159375000003,"end":280.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.04409375,"end":294.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.46596875,"end":295.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.02284375,"end":314.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.27284375,"end":318.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.94721875000005,"end":320.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.16221875,"end":322.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.87909375000004,"end":330.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.51096875,"end":331.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.69221875,"end":332.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.90721875,"end":336.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.15971875,"end":340.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.27721875000003,"end":343.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.53846875000005,"end":376.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.89596875,"end":378.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.43159375000005,"end":379.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.10659375,"end":380.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.12346875000003,"end":382.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.60409375,"end":402.11159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.27846875,"end":387.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.36284375,"end":387.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.39659375,"end":387.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.44721875000005,"end":387.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.56534375,"end":388.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.03596875000005,"end":401.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.26346875,"end":406.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.68471875,"end":409.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.67159375,"end":411.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.44346875,"end":423.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.83471875000004,"end":419.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.45471875000004,"end":420.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.05784375,"end":422.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.12096875000003,"end":439.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.46034375000005,"end":438.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.64596875,"end":438.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.01284375,"end":440.90721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.315,"end":10.632,"text":"好,謝謝主席。有請我們交通部王部長王部長,請"},{"start":15.143,"end":33.913,"text":"市長,首先表達我個人對於國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例表達支持。我覺得這是表達我們一個地方建設的一個決心。因為在很多一個重大建設每次拿到桌上排序的時候,我們在花動很多一個交通建設,可能因為價錢又貴,"},{"start":36.374,"end":62.101,"text":"公程又有困難所以永遠被擺在後面所以我就展現決心啦第二個齁我自己覺得長年來花東人回家的路型定義都被我們定義完畢了花東人回家就是他的責任就要去台灣頭看看跟基隆鄉親打打招呼要不然就到台灣尾跟屏東鄉親打打招呼再回家北鬧南鬧那為什麼我們在"},{"start":63.141,"end":90.928,"text":"所謂的建設的一個工法科技不管是在歐洲的大陸或者對岸的大陸在大山大水他們有多少地質比這個更困難的都可以做好所以我覺得如果國道六號東延花蓮的話我覺得讓花蓮人重新定義花東人重新定義他們一條回家的路所以我個人是表達支持那我想這個因為時間不多了"},{"start":92.227,"end":109.138,"text":"﹏"},{"start":109.198,"end":137.525,"text":"一五年開始那時候就是邊坡落石一個警告系統當時要說26處結果我們到我上任到我上任的時候那時候問而原本預計的騎乘也延期了一直到2021年的4月2號太魯閣事件因為車從邊坡滑下去了大家要重新開始檢討加速把26個地方能夠完工"},{"start":138.385,"end":164.282,"text":"那我們在看到4月3號4月3號大地震的時候我看到你這個董事長啊局長變董事長董事長有報告嘛這一次發揮了功效阻止了列車進入落石路段26個這個告警系統有幾個發布啊有幾個有反應要跟委員報告齁0403這一天那個時間點我們是有一個系統一個嗎"},{"start":168.405,"end":196.231,"text":"二十六個裡面有一個發現了。欸一個就很重要喔。我想真的齁。那也這個引發或者促使了列車停下來嘛。對,速度就停下來。速度就很有用啦。那我們本來想說問題大致解決了齁。因為哪裡危險也是尊重你們的一個專業。你們選了二十六個最危險的地方。而且也做好了。但是七天之後我們不用嘛。剛剛我們這個郡縣委員也說了齁。欸又撞極道。"},{"start":197.791,"end":199.152,"text":"我請教一下"},{"start":214.62,"end":233.336,"text":"你現在這個26個是不夠嘛齁那你們現在講說那個地方因為沒有不是我26個當時的告警系統可是你的自己的工會勞工董事還是工會的秘書長他自己秘書啊他也說啊他說其實事實就在"},{"start":234.036,"end":249.515,"text":"地震當天啊因為你是4月10號才撞到了但地震當天就在距離現場就是你所謂的不是那26個重點區就已經發生了落實了然後2019年的時候幾年前也發生了落實"},{"start":250.896,"end":277.594,"text":"那這個部分那這樣我就請教你一下你現在偵測那就不夠就不夠有一些地方發現也是危險就不夠那我們再針對這個糾結下去沒有用啦你現在要偵測38處是不是這個計畫那現在的進度如何經費找到沒有有經費都已經有找到我們現在38處我們預計會全部在明年的年終會完成"},{"start":278.214,"end":293.747,"text":"明年的年終會完成嗎?現階段我們會在6月完成發包然後我們計畫在9月我們就有實體的阻攔跟一處示範性的告警會完成"},{"start":294.848,"end":322.455,"text":"這個你的地點的一個評估我相信除了專家之外你第一線的公務、公班我相信今年累月他最了解了我們希望26加38未來總共64個我們整個台鐵高風險路段真的是希望能夠保平安然後最後我鐵道局請教一下就一分鐘就好了這是因為去年的五月"},{"start":323.902,"end":340.239,"text":"我們在終結他的因為有施工的吊被墜落嘛發生了一死十四傷那我們在就這個月啦我們桃園捷運、桃捷運發現還好那個比較小的施行鋼就掉進去軌道了那當然造成了一個跳電"},{"start":341.78,"end":365.094,"text":"現在他們也在想他們也在想說這個義務入侵的一個系統因為原本是這樣啦因為台鐵要經過甚至高鐵要經過很多地形複雜的一個區塊那一般的捷運大部分都是在軌道已經比較穩定的一個區塊所以在早期全台灣的捷運都沒有裝這個那現在我想鐵道局還是部長部長你要講一下吧"},{"start":365.834,"end":394.559,"text":"因為全臺灣的一個捷運齁他們現在也希望對於義務入侵軌道能夠裝監測偵測系統這個部分這個交通部跟鐵道局可以支持嗎?這個可以支持嗎?支持他們?看他們提出計畫啦就是說這個技術呃委員長這部分是不是局長說的?根文報告齁因為捷運系統現在所做的義務偵測方向是朝向在車上裝"},{"start":395.532,"end":421.597,"text":"像我們小客車這一種所謂的固態雷達就車載的車載的是不是那這一部分呢我們曾經洽詢過全世界相關的這個主要的系統商跟顧問目前在這個部分技術上是不穩定的他的可靠度還沒有辦法達到非常穩定的一個狀態非常容易造成誤告警所以上次在談這個案子的時候這樣的齁"},{"start":423.537,"end":439.25,"text":"現在全台灣的捷運公司他都有提出這樣的一個需求我希望鐵道局是有回應的如果技術是車載的一個系統或者特定在施工風險區塊在軌道放置這個部分我希望你們能夠來協助好不好好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151292","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151292","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016272d33b5f39ee8b1570e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c941ebfeb97457f9b415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳雪生","委員發言時間":"11:25:48 - 11:37:31","影片長度":"00:11:43","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":703,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:37:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:25:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":251,"blocks":[["陳委員雪生：（11時25分）謝謝主席，是不是請部長？"],["王部長國材：召委好。"],["陳委員雪生：部長，本席再說一次，因為本席剛才是在主席台上說，這次花蓮的震災，雖然當時馬祖起濃霧，但我們還是以救災為先，讓新臺馬輪開往花蓮，結果就是我們馬祖這邊一團亂，說真的，我們真的要謝謝連江縣的王縣長，還有所有鄉親的體諒。"],["王部長國材：是的。"],["陳委員雪生：當時載了二百多輛車、四百多個人回來，是不是？解決了一個大問題。關於這個船，本席也和航港局葉局長說過，像這種船配置以後，例如去澎湖要搭船，或是當金門有霧的時候，這個船也可以駛往金門救援，所以這件事很重要，因為金門、馬祖常常起霧，或者澎湖或花蓮有問題時也可以出動。這個機制很好，雖然對我們而言確實會帶來不便，但是王縣長和鄉親討論後，基於大愛、同胞愛，還是同意把船開去花蓮救援，我們自己搭小船來臺北。"],["王部長國材：是，真的非常謝謝王縣長，還有陳召委，我們航港局打一個電話，他馬上同意，而且那是清明輸運的時候，人潮滿滿的，但是當時船隻馬上就到花東輸運，所以我們非常感謝。縣長和陳委員都有大功，非常感謝你們願意協助其他縣市。"],["陳委員雪生：也非常謝謝我們的鄉親，他們都能諒解政府的作為。"],["王部長國材：是，了解。"],["陳委員雪生：我們有一艘臺馬之星，你知道吧？"],["王部長國材：知道。"],["陳委員雪生：臺馬之星建造的時候確實有問題，因為它是2萬噸的船，就像把牛的心臟裝在豬的身體裡面，你看豬活得下去嗎？豬活不下去啦！所以臺馬之星還會有狀況，本席也和縣長說了，不如即時淘汰。我們臺馬輪不是賣了一點錢嗎？交通部也可以考慮，除了這些錢，你們再給一點，就可以再建造一艘，但不要那麼大，為什麼呢？因為那邊常常起霧，這樣兩邊才可以對開。","當然，這裡面需要投入一些經費，但這也是為了解決離島交通的問題，而且金門、澎湖都有四星的機場，我們的機場到現在連三星都不是。"],["王部長國材：快有了。"],["陳委員雪生：的確是快了，沒錯！尤其是南竿機場險象環生，那個側風確實會產生問題，但是南竿機場已經無法改善，請問部長，北竿機場改建案在哪裡？"],["王部長國材：3月18日國發會已經送到行政院，現在就等行政院核定，我覺得應該很快啦！"],["陳委員雪生：但本席在行政院卻找不到這個案子啊！秘書處已經上陳了吧？就本席的判斷，案子應該是在政委那邊。"],["王部長國材：是，他說……"],["陳委員雪生：因為本席問過鄭文燦副院長，也沒有在他那邊，鄭文燦副院長沒有看到，院長更看不到。總質詢的時候院長答復本席，當時部長也在場嘛！他說什麼時候回復？本席要求兩個禮拜，你和院長都說一個月，現在一個月的時間到了，院長說話不能不算話。"],["王部長國材：好，如果在政……"],["陳委員雪生：陳建仁院長可以說話不算話嗎？"],["王部長國材：現在看起來在北竿機場擴建這個案子，大家都支持啦！"],["陳委員雪生：國發會同意啊！"],["王部長國材：對，我再了解一下政委那邊有什麼意見。"],["陳委員雪生：現在還有什麼意見？"],["王部長國材：我了解一下。我不知道是……"],["陳委員雪生：上次選舉前，院長說已經核定，選完以後本席又問院長，院長說原來案子還在行政院。院長已經答應，而且本席也要求兩個禮拜回復，但你們說要一個月，可是一個月的時間也到啦！陳建仁院長說話算不算話？說話不算話也沒關係，請你說清楚，本席可以召開記者會，主題就是院長說話不算話。"],["王部長國材：主要是程序還沒有走到院長那邊。"],["陳委員雪生：這裡的會議是有錄音、錄影的，也有文字稿，這不可以亂來吧？"],["王部長國材：是，我也來幫忙追蹤一下。"],["陳委員雪生：本席已經打了三次電話給部長，拜託你追蹤，你追到哪裡去了？"],["王部長國材：上次是追國發會，現在國發會已經送出來了。"],["陳委員雪生：本席天天都在追，每一天、每一時、每一秒都在緊盯。"],["王部長國材：是的。"],["陳委員雪生：有鄉親說北竿機場的改建可能會影響到經濟發展，其實這不用急，你們可以先核定北竿機場的改建案。本席也問過龔主委，那橋呢？世曦是國內頂尖的工程顧問公司，他們已經把案子標出去了，請英國的第三方公正人士評估造橋有沒有困難。龔主委也是好意啦！而且賴準總統也打過好幾次電話給龔主委，他也在關心這個案子，這件事你可能不知道，所以本席現在告訴你。本席的層次比你還高啦！因為本席知道的事情，你還不知道。","但本席也要拜託部長，雖然你快卸任了，我們很惋惜，但不是今天就要開告別式，本席也希望不要告別，好不好？我們是永遠的朋友，拜託你，關於這個部分，請您繼續幫我們努力。"],["王部長國材：好的。"],["陳委員雪生：尤其是橋的部分。當然先造橋嘛！是不是？橋如果核定就先造橋，橋如果沒有核定的話，我們再來和居民討論，因為造橋時起碼會有300名工人進場。而且觀光客不可能到了南竿卻不去北竿，一定也會到北竿消費嘛！所以居民不需要太過介意。北竿的居民以後要到南竿搭船，造成那邊的交通不便，我們也可以提出方案或配套措施，例如搭船不要錢，對不對？這5年搭船到南竿都由政府出錢，這些都不是問題啦！","當然，在適當的時機，本席也會安排去馬祖考察，請交通部、部長、民航局長、航政司長等相關單位，一起到那邊向北竿鄉親做一個完整的說明，因為現在大橋還沒有定案，你們去說明都是空的，本席或是民航局去說明都不對，要等大橋定案以後才能完整的說明，現在坊間的傳聞，其實都是隨便說說，所以本席才沒有即時回應老百姓。","請你們把大橋的案子定案，到底做或不做，如果做的話是怎麼回事，不做又是怎麼回事，因為這畢竟是中央政府的德政，我們非常感謝。另外說到今天的主題雪隧，雪隧當初做了20年，國六要做多少年？本席不知道，但是你們今天不做，明天就會後悔。早上很多委員說了，中央山脈有斷層、水層等等，雪山隧道沒有嗎？雪山隧道也有啊！但可以轉彎、繞道嘛！有很多方式可以處理，是不是？你們今天不做，明天就會後悔，因為臺中到花蓮可以有一條那麼近的路。","雪隧做20年，我們可以做30年、40年啊！雖然我們看不到，但我們可以幫下一代著想，所以起碼要先做可行性評估、地質測量等等，這些配套措施都可以用上。而且傅崐萁委員並沒有說今天馬上就要做啊！也沒有說需要多少錢啊！是不是？評估需要多少錢？其實大家也不知道，有人說工程經費是8,000億元，或是這個金額的好幾倍，但如果分30年、50年，其實每年就不需要那麼多錢了嘛！所以本席覺得交通部和執政黨的同仁、委員，不要站在很主觀的方向去想這個問題，直接交給專業的專家去做評估，這才是比較有道理的。部長，你覺得呢？"],["王部長國材：是。我剛才也談到，我們是從正向來思考這件事，而且現在已經在做路廊探勘和地質調查，在這個調查裡面，我們會把重要課題找出來，然後就能進入可行性評估。我們覺得這是一個很重大的工程，對花蓮也很重要，但是它必須很嚴肅、很專業的去做評估，而不是用一個條例直接定下來，就像馬祖大橋一樣要做綜合規劃，也跑了這麼久的流程，對交通部公路局來說，這件事已經證明可行，現在只是在等核定。"],["陳委員雪生：本席有問過龔主委，世曦做的評估還不夠嗎？你們還要拿到英國去評估？他說英國的公司也會找世曦去討論啦！"],["王部長國材：同樣的道理，我個人是持正面的態度，但我覺得它要經過類似馬祖大橋這樣的評估，之後我們就能加速進行。當然，這次台8線這麼脆弱，我們覺得這部分的腳步應該要加快進行。"],["陳委員雪生：等新的閣揆上任，本席會就這方面請教，因為賴準總統也很關心，他去馬祖時也答應本席要蓋這座大橋。"],["王部長國材：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員雪生：他要做喔！不是不做，所以本席覺得希望滿大的。本席是希望大橋和機場一起做，站在馬祖的立場、視野來看，這樣才是永續經營之道。"],["王部長國材：好的，了解。"],["陳委員雪生：這也是為了後代子孫，不管本席是否看得到。我們共同努力，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好，謝謝，謝謝召委。"],["陳委員雪生：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳雪生召委。","接下來請魯委員明哲發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃仁","許智傑","陳培瑜","沈伯洋"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1133001_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.3597187500000003,"end":4.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.78471875,"end":10.864718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.016593750000002,"end":14.121593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.032843750000001,"end":17.867843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.64409375,"end":20.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.12471875,"end":25.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.25971875,"end":21.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.69784375,"end":27.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.722843750000003,"end":29.612843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.051593750000002,"end":31.941593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.73471875,"end":34.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.400968750000004,"end":37.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.337218750000005,"end":41.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.24846875,"end":39.822218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.37034375,"end":43.180343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.65284375,"end":45.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.38659375,"end":47.635343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.002218750000004,"end":50.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.85846875,"end":50.875343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.875343750000006,"end":53.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.929718750000006,"end":55.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.10659375,"end":58.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.70096875,"end":62.56971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.41346875000001,"end":63.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.12221875,"end":66.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.73784375000001,"end":67.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.04159375,"end":69.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.69096875000001,"end":70.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.09596875,"end":70.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.14221875,"end":72.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.08284375000001,"end":74.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.19221875000001,"end":76.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.76159375,"end":76.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.11596875000001,"end":80.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.71034375,"end":83.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.18659375,"end":85.28346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.53659375000001,"end":86.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.53221875,"end":86.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.27471875,"end":88.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.72596875,"end":90.54846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.54846875000001,"end":91.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.12221875,"end":92.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.65346875,"end":102.61409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.01909375000001,"end":106.78221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.37284375,"end":109.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.27971875,"end":114.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.67971875,"end":123.23534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.62346875,"end":129.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.77909375,"end":126.81284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.81284375000001,"end":127.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.03221875000001,"end":127.67346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.37784375,"end":129.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.00221875,"end":131.31846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.80784375000002,"end":135.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.43596875,"end":136.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.29659375,"end":139.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.62096875,"end":142.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.48971875,"end":142.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.62471875,"end":145.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.86471875,"end":147.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.53096875,"end":149.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.40409375000002,"end":151.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.37409375000001,"end":154.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.53846875000002,"end":154.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.50034375,"end":156.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.69846875000002,"end":159.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.49971875,"end":160.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.05221875,"end":163.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.20784375000002,"end":166.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.28346875,"end":166.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.78971875000002,"end":169.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.87784375,"end":170.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.13096875000002,"end":172.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.91534375,"end":174.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.58596875,"end":174.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.65346875,"end":176.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.72909375,"end":178.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":178.58534375000002,"end":178.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.87221875,"end":179.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.69909375,"end":182.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.61846875,"end":184.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.06534375,"end":187.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.10284375,"end":190.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.43159375000002,"end":191.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.15721875,"end":196.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.69221875000002,"end":196.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.77659375000002,"end":196.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.96221875,"end":197.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.06346875,"end":198.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.95346875,"end":199.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.12221875,"end":201.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.77159375000002,"end":202.59846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.04159375,"end":202.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.75034375,"end":202.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.76721875,"end":202.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.91909375,"end":203.02034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.17221875,"end":205.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.58534375000002,"end":209.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.90096875,"end":215.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.23409375,"end":213.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.76534375,"end":216.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.19096875000002,"end":219.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.76034375,"end":219.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.86159375000003,"end":219.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.87846875000002,"end":219.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.94596875000002,"end":219.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.96284375000002,"end":220.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.03034375000001,"end":220.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.59971875000002,"end":221.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.63346875000002,"end":223.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.92846875,"end":224.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.01659375000003,"end":227.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.60721875000002,"end":229.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.58596875,"end":239.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.74159375000002,"end":232.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.75784375,"end":236.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.09471875000003,"end":241.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.28846875000002,"end":243.06471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.63846875000002,"end":244.29659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.63409375,"end":245.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.68034375000002,"end":246.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.25409375,"end":246.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.32159375,"end":248.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.81909375,"end":249.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.74721875,"end":251.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.64971875,"end":253.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.13034375,"end":256.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":255.24846875000003,"end":255.26534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.26534375000003,"end":255.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.32409375000003,"end":257.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.34096875,"end":258.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.94846875,"end":259.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.36159375,"end":260.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.41221875,"end":260.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.42909375,"end":261.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.91846875000005,"end":266.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.08221875000004,"end":267.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.21284375,"end":270.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.80721875,"end":270.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.99284375,"end":273.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.35971875,"end":274.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.40596875,"end":276.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.28721875,"end":278.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.93659375000004,"end":280.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.43846875,"end":281.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.40034375,"end":284.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.37471875,"end":284.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.99909375000004,"end":287.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.66096875,"end":290.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.32721875000004,"end":291.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.54221875,"end":293.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.61346875000004,"end":298.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.72659375,"end":301.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.81096875000003,"end":302.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.66284375000004,"end":305.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.08034375,"end":309.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.22721875,"end":312.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.74596875000003,"end":314.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.56409375000004,"end":315.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.28534375000004,"end":317.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.50034375,"end":321.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.60096875,"end":321.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.61784375,"end":321.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.73596875000004,"end":321.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.41096875,"end":324.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.84096875,"end":324.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.85784375000003,"end":325.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.92534375,"end":326.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.74784375,"end":330.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.66721875,"end":333.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.30784375,"end":334.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.37534375,"end":334.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.44284375,"end":334.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.49346875000003,"end":334.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.51034375,"end":336.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.80096875000004,"end":339.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.64034375,"end":340.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.80471875,"end":342.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.88034375,"end":344.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.71971875,"end":347.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.66846875000005,"end":349.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.45721875000004,"end":351.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.34721875,"end":356.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.96659375,"end":359.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.73846875000004,"end":361.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.01659375,"end":365.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.72909375,"end":368.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.75784375,"end":371.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.80409375000005,"end":372.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.84596875,"end":377.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.08596875,"end":377.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.38971875000004,"end":378.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":378.82409375000003,"end":379.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.34721875,"end":381.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.23284375000003,"end":383.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.55346875000004,"end":382.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":383.75159375000004,"end":384.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.49409375000005,"end":385.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.97909375,"end":386.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.75534375,"end":387.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.44721875000005,"end":391.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":391.17659375000005,"end":391.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.48034375000003,"end":393.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":393.94409375000004,"end":393.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":394.02846875,"end":394.16346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":394.55159375000005,"end":395.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.15471875000003,"end":398.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.78284375000004,"end":403.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.95096875,"end":404.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.01409375000003,"end":406.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.47784375000003,"end":409.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.76846875,"end":413.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.16034375000004,"end":415.29096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.91534375000003,"end":418.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.27346875,"end":424.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.12909375000004,"end":426.58034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.15409375,"end":429.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.83721875000003,"end":432.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.68909375000004,"end":433.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.05159375000005,"end":437.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":437.76846875,"end":437.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":437.97096875000005,"end":438.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.69659375000003,"end":440.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.24471875,"end":444.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.45096875,"end":447.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.99471875,"end":452.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.65221875000003,"end":454.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.23409375000006,"end":457.05659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.61346875000004,"end":461.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.71409375,"end":463.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.55346875000004,"end":465.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.40534375000004,"end":467.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.58221875000004,"end":469.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.05034375,"end":472.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.86846875000003,"end":476.32784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":476.63159375000004,"end":476.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.20534375000005,"end":480.58034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.52096875,"end":484.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.06909375000004,"end":486.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.38096875,"end":488.95034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.65909375,"end":491.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.37596875,"end":493.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.05909375000005,"end":497.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.77159375,"end":501.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.67409375000005,"end":503.26034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.40784375000004,"end":506.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.90534375000004,"end":508.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.90909375,"end":510.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.69784375000006,"end":513.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.0434687500001,"end":516.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":516.33846875,"end":516.6084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.76034375,"end":518.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.9878437500001,"end":521.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.3334687500001,"end":524.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.0290937500001,"end":527.4422187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.9484687500001,"end":529.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.87221875,"end":531.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.17159375,"end":532.2178437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.07846875,"end":533.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.92221875,"end":536.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.1328437500001,"end":538.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.2165937500001,"end":544.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.1272187500001,"end":548.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.6709687499999,"end":552.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.2609687500001,"end":555.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":554.79659375,"end":555.1003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":555.6572187500001,"end":556.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.2140937500001,"end":558.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.40346875,"end":560.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.3272187499999,"end":562.8797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.50409375,"end":565.4953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.84971875,"end":567.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.7903437500001,"end":570.0178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.7434687500001,"end":572.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.6840937500001,"end":573.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.5403437500001,"end":576.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.8859687500001,"end":579.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.53096875,"end":583.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.83846875,"end":587.4665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.82096875,"end":589.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.8628437500001,"end":590.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.2465937500001,"end":596.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.7309687500001,"end":597.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.49034375,"end":603.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.24471875,"end":608.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.1553437499999,"end":616.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.23409375,"end":622.2122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.4653437500001,"end":626.7009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":627.29159375,"end":627.9497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.16909375,"end":632.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.11784375,"end":635.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.50971875,"end":637.0790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.5265937500001,"end":636.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.43346875,"end":640.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.3022187500001,"end":658.0715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.0715937500001,"end":662.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.60659375,"end":667.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.42034375,"end":669.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":669.10784375,"end":669.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.5972187500001,"end":672.3815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":669.6140937499999,"end":669.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":672.46596875,"end":673.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":673.86659375,"end":674.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.8959687500001,"end":678.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":678.06846875,"end":678.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":678.79409375,"end":679.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.32971875,"end":689.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.3872187500001,"end":701.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":700.7822187500001,"end":701.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":702.7903437500001,"end":702.97596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.401,"end":23.906,"text":"好謝謝主席是不是請部長部長我再說一次齁因為剛才在主席台上面這個這一次花蓮的震災我們新臺馬倫你看我們馬上就啟農屋喔啟農屋啊我們還是以救災為先"},{"start":30.134,"end":58.724,"text":"那麼這個新唐人去開往花蓮,開往花蓮我們馬祖那邊一團亂啊所以說真的我們真的要謝謝連江縣的王縣長還有所有鄉親的體諒帶了200多輛車子回來400多個人是不是解決了一個大問題啊所以我才講說這個船啊我也跟航港局業局長講你像這種船做了以後,澎湖也要做船嘛"},{"start":59.778,"end":87.787,"text":"金門有霧的時候,這個船也可以持往金門救援。我們的船也可以持往那邊去救援。所以這很重要,因為金門馬祖常常起霧。婆屋有問題,你看,花蓮有問題,我們就去了。這個機制很好,對我們地方確實帶來不便。但是我覺得王國材跟鄉親討論,我們基於大愛,所以同胞愛,"},{"start":88.84,"end":106.409,"text":"我們船開具我們借座小船到台北來我真的非常謝謝王縣長還有陳昭偉我們海關局打一個電話他馬上同意而且那是在清明輸運的時候是人滿滿的我就非常感謝就是說"},{"start":107.429,"end":130.801,"text":"然後馬上就到花東來輸印我非常非常謝謝真的在過去我跟縣長陳委員我們覺得你們都是非常的大功願意來協助各縣市非常感謝所以我們鄉親當然也非常謝謝我們鄉親他們也都諒解政府的作為了所以從這個地方"},{"start":131.857,"end":158.739,"text":"我們有一條臺馬之星你知道嗎?臺馬之星這條船做的時候確實有問題。把牛的心臟、兩萬噸的船的心臟裝在那個豬的心臟裡面。你看那個豬能夠活得下去嗎?豬活不下去。所以臺馬之星還會有狀況。我跟你講不如能夠淘汰、及時淘汰。"},{"start":161.124,"end":181.516,"text":"那我們臺馬倫不是有賣了一點錢嗎?賣了一點錢你交通部可以考慮,賣了錢再加上我們再給一點錢,再去做一條不要那麼大的,為什麼?因為常常起霧,常常起霧兩邊可以對開,當然這裡面要投入一些經費"},{"start":182.697,"end":208.649,"text":"但是為了解決離島交通的問題。金門、澎湖都有4系的機場啊。我們到現在連3系都還不是啊。快有了,快有了。尤其快了沒錯啊。南韓機場的顯像還生了齁。那個側風確實有問題喔。南韓機場已經無法改善了。我請問部長,北韓機場改建案在哪裡?案子。現在國號會已經送到行政院。"},{"start":210.953,"end":239.287,"text":"三月二十八送過去,現在就等約定來合定,我覺得應該很快行政院我去找就找不到啊,行政院我去找找不到秘書處已經也上層了案子應該我在判斷在政委那邊應該的因為我也問了鄭文燦副院長也沒有啊鄭文燦副院長沒看到,院長更看不到"},{"start":240.291,"end":258.939,"text":"我在總質詢的時候,院長答覆我,部長你也在場,他跟我講什麼時間,我要求兩個禮拜,那你跟院長一樣講一個月,這一個月時間到啦,院長講話不能不算話,院長可以講話不算話嗎?"},{"start":260.53,"end":285.8,"text":"陳建源院長我跟趙偉豹現在看起來在北根機場扣件都支持國防會同意啊我了解一下政委那邊有沒有什麼意見我再了解一下現在還有什麼意見我了解一下我在上一次選舉之前院長說已經核定了啊核定後來這一次選完以後我又問院長,院長說原來還在院裡面院長都已經答應了啊"},{"start":291.36,"end":316.769,"text":"而且我要求說兩個禮拜,很像你們講一個月吧,一個月時間也到啦陳俊仁院長講話算不算話?不算話也沒關係,你講清楚啊,我來開個記者會啊,院長講話不算話?對,因為他主要程序還沒有當面講那有語音餒,有影像餒,有文字稿餒,這不可以亂來吧?"},{"start":318.655,"end":341.265,"text":"我來幫你追蹤一下追蹤我已經打三次電話給部長了拜託你追蹤你追到哪裡?上次是追國道會現在國道已經出來了我天天都在追我是每天每一時每一秒也有人相信講說北竿機場的改建可能會影響到一些經濟發生的問題"},{"start":342.912,"end":368.264,"text":"我跟你講不要急嘛,你先把北韓機場先把它改進來核定。我也問工主委啦,我說橋勒?世西是我們國內頂尖的這個工程顧問公司欸。那他現在已經標案出去了,請英國的英國的地方第三方的工程人士再來評估這個造橋有沒有困難度。"},{"start":370.776,"end":398.262,"text":"他算是好意啦公主委算是好意那我們賴準總統也打電話給公主委好幾次也在關心這個案可能你不知道但是我告訴你我的層次比你還高啦我知道的事情你還不知道我說拜託部長雖然你快卸任了我們很晚熄啦不是說今天就要開告別式我希望不要告別好不好我們永遠的朋友"},{"start":399.827,"end":428.925,"text":"我拜託就是說在這個部分請您繼續幫我們努力尤其橋啊當然先做橋嘛是不是橋如果合定先做橋橋如果沒有合定的話我們再來跟居民討論看看這裡面因為做橋有300個人起碼進場嘛那觀光客的話不可能到了南竿你不到北竿這不可能一定也會到北竿去消費嘛所以居民不需要那個你北竿的居民以後要到"},{"start":429.861,"end":446.704,"text":"南韓坐船造成他交通的不便,我們也可以有方案出來嘛,配套措施。不要錢嘛對不對,在這五年坐船到南韓來,我們政府來出嘛。這都不是問題啦,都不是問題啦。"},{"start":448.192,"end":471.602,"text":"當然在適當時機我也會去馬鞍珠考察的時候有請交通部、有請部長、民航局長、行政司長相關單位也會到那邊去跟我們鄉親、北韓的鄉親做一個完整的說明因為現在橋還沒有決定嘛你去說明都是空的現在我去說明也不對民航局去說明也不對"},{"start":472.992,"end":497.727,"text":"因為你大喬要定案以後才能夠有完整的說明所以坊間一直在講說這樣那樣都是隨便講親喳共共所以我才沒有及時的去回應我們老百姓我想你把大喬案子定案做還是不做?如果做的話怎麼回事?不做的話怎麼回事?"},{"start":498.803,"end":527.175,"text":"因為畢竟這個中央政府的這個德政我們是非常感謝另外講到今天的主題雪隧雪隧做了20年那國六國六要做多少年我是不知道但是你今天不做明天就會後悔剛才早上很多委員講了哎呀中央山脈有什麼東西啊落成啊或者有什麼斷層啊有水啊什麼的我們雪山隧道沒有嗎雪山隧道也有"},{"start":528.104,"end":550.291,"text":"可以轉彎啦,可以繞道嘛,很多的方式。是不是?你今天不做,明天就會後悔。台中到花蓮可以找那麼近的一條路。我們他做20年,雪水做20年,我們可以做30年啦,做40年啦。我們是看不到起碼我們幫下一代著想。你起碼先有個可行性的評估。"},{"start":551.092,"end":579.661,"text":"你地質的測量等等都可以把這些配套全部用上去嘛而且我們副國務級委員也沒有講說今天馬上要做啊也沒有講說多少錢啊是不是評估多少錢也不知道啊那有人講說是八千億是好幾倍我們一年的工程金費你分30年50年就沒有那麼多錢了嘛所以我覺得交通部啊還有我們一些執政黨的同仁啊委員啊"},{"start":580.912,"end":602.506,"text":"不要站在很主觀的方向去想,交給專業的專家有沒有去做評估,去做評估是比較有道理的。部長你覺得勒?基本上我剛才談到我們從這個正向來思考這件事,但是就是說剛才談到的我們現在已經在做路廊踏桿跟地址調查"},{"start":603.482,"end":625.159,"text":"我們在這個調查裡面會把重要課題把它找出來然後就進入可行性那我們是覺得說這個是一個很重大的工程對花蓮也很重要但是它必須很嚴肅很專業的做一個評估不是說用一個條例直接把它定下來就像這個馬祖大橋一樣也做到綜合規劃中間也跑這麼"},{"start":627.361,"end":654.114,"text":"已經證明對交通部公路局來講已經證明可行了阿只是現在在合作有我有問過公主委阿世襲還不夠嗎你還要拿到英國去他說英國的公司也會找世襲去討論同樣道理就是說我個人是持正面但是我覺得他要經過類似馬祖大學這種評估然後我們就加速進行那當然這一次在這個台八的狀況這麼脆弱我們是覺得在這一個腳步齁"},{"start":655.935,"end":681.612,"text":"我們可以加快,應該再加快來進行我認為新的格規上來我會就這方面因為賴院長他也很關心這個大橋他去馬祖也答應我他要做這個大橋他要做不是不做賴準總統他要做不是不做所以我覺得希望蠻大的"},{"start":682.079,"end":700.986,"text":"我希望是大橋跟機場我們一起來做。把馬阿祖的未來,我站在馬阿祖的高度、馬阿祖的視野來看這個問題。這才是永續的一個經營制造,為了後代子孫。我不管我看得到看不到。好不好,我們共同努力好不好。好,謝謝。謝謝趙委員。"}]}},{"id":"151291","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151291","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016272b0e519a40188a990e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c941b51977d4a86bfe65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"11:17:56 - 11:25:38","影片長度":"00:07:42","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":462,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:25:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:17:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":229,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（11時17分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請王部長。"],["主席：王部長。"],["王部長國材：陳委員好。"],["陳委員素月：部長早安。"],["王部長國材：早。"],["陳委員素月：今天委員會針對國道六號東延花蓮的建設，以及花蓮地震陸海空應變機制進行詢答。我們知道民意代表基於職責，替地方爭取交通建設都是天經地義、無可厚非的，對於目前有委員倡議推動國道六號東延花蓮，針對這個建設交通部有沒有什麼相關的作為？"],["王部長國材：是，我跟委員報告，我們去年年底啟動路廊踏勘及地質踏勘這兩個工作，現在等於要找路，還有包括地質調查。"],["陳委員素月：找路線圖？"],["王部長國材：剛才談到中央山脈有太多斷層、岩爆還有環境敏感地帶。整個國道六號東延，我們現在已經持正面態度做相關的研究，但是它一定要經過嚴肅的評估再進行後續工作。我們覺得還是要嚴謹的評估，這個道路未來的可行性會更高，所以我們希望朝這方面走。"],["陳委員素月：對，我們知道每一件重大的工程都不是一蹴可幾的，而且它的完成牽涉的面也很廣，條件也不一樣，所以我們在推動公共建設有一定的流程跟期程。今天傅委員提出國道六號東延的條例，部長看有沒有符合我們計畫的流程？"],["王部長國材：因為過去像委員在彰化也爭取很多相關計畫，都是評估以後再進行，所以經過嚴謹的評估，反而會讓這個計畫更可行啦！我們覺得過去沒有個案計畫，如果直接用條例來框的話，就是……"],["陳委員素月：彰化也沒有這樣的例子嘛！是不是？"],["王部長國材：等於是跳過委員所提的，從可行性評估到施工的過程，因為這樣違反過去嚴謹的做法，所以我們還是期待能夠循原本的途徑。"],["陳委員素月：對。剛才本席也有提到，每一個公共建設的完成，牽涉的面很廣，具備的條件也不一樣，尤其是他們在推動的國道六號，因為要通過中央山脈，而且中央山脈也被一些保育專家列為地質敏感區和保育區，未來是不是可以在這樣的環境敏感區興建快速公路？本席認為這都需要經過審慎的評估。尤其是這次0403花蓮大地震，相信這也是大自然對我們的警示，以前都說人定勝天，但是當大自然反撲的時候，沒有任何人可以阻擋。","這次的大地震，我們看到清水橋斷了，中橫公路也因為土石崩塌阻斷，蘇花公路也有很多落石，其實還有更嚴重的，就是走山、土石流，這些都是沒有辦法預估的，因為九二一大地震的時候也有很嚴重的走山、土石流。所以我們還是要尊重大自然，這樣才有辦法和大自然共存，如果我們因為硬要做這樣的建設，結果破壞地質環境，造成以後大自然反撲，對我們是沒有益處的。","像這次0403大地震，其實事後也有很多救難人員談到，還好那天不是連假第一天，如果是連假第一天，路上的車輛會很多，恐怕會造成更多災難，不過這都是沒有辦法預期的。這次的大地震，本席也要肯定交通部的相關應變，包括搶修，例如清水橋斷了，我們可以馬上用原有的舊橋先搶通，包括旅客輸運、鐵路搶通，這些作為大家都看在眼裡，應變速度滿快的。當然，對於天災，我們真的沒有辦法抵擋，但我們希望能夠掌握黃金應變時間，所以災害預警、告警系統就非常重要。","這次我們也看到，臺鐵的落石預警系統有發揮功能，地震發生那一天，有一列太魯閣號因為預警系統示警，所以趕快停下來，避免因為落石造成意外，可是之後相隔一個禮拜，卻發生普悠瑪號因為擦撞落石出軌，讓乘客驚魂未定。我們真的不能每次都靠運氣，還是應該儘早做好防災預警系統。這次地震之後，有沒有更積極的作為？是不是可以請部長說明一下？"],["王部長國材：我們現在在臺鐵沿線有26處落石預警、告警系統，後續還有38處，這38處到年底應該會完成一半以上，明年會全部完成。的確，這次大小餘震大概有八百多次，花蓮這邊的邊坡都有很大的改變，所以我也和董事長特別提到這個問題。這38處，他們已經做過特別巡檢，如果需要裝設，我們會繼續支持。過去臺鐵軌道旁的邊坡的確是穩定的，這次是從公路的邊坡掉下落石，這個危險已經發生，所以他們告警的部分必須再擴大，這部分我已經請他們進行研擬。"],["陳委員素月：交通便利是每一個鄉親的期待，也是需求，但不管是什麼樣的便利，還是要以安全為首要。所以就現有的交通路線，不管是鐵路或公路，安全維護或者預警系統的加強建置都是必要的，包括未來新闢公路的安全性，都必須是我們的首要考量，謝謝。"],["王部長國材：好的，我們會持續努力。"],["主席（林委員國成代）：謝謝陳委員。","接下來請陳委員雪生發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃仁","許智傑","陳培瑜","沈伯洋"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1133001_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.84471875,"end":7.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.235968750000001,"end":12.012218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.19784375,"end":43.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.10909375,"end":13.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.159093750000004,"end":53.440343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.625968750000006,"end":64.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.971593750000004,"end":56.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.13159375,"end":59.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.797843750000006,"end":61.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.37534375,"end":81.90846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.25534375000001,"end":76.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.47471875000001,"end":76.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.24596875,"end":87.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.74721875,"end":110.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.91971875,"end":91.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.33721875,"end":92.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.08346875000001,"end":96.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.90971875000001,"end":101.36534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.95159375,"end":103.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.37659375000001,"end":110.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.43971875000001,"end":115.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.08471875000001,"end":122.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.59034375,"end":119.65784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.88534375,"end":122.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.08346875000001,"end":141.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.53846875,"end":127.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.68534375000002,"end":134.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.66284375,"end":151.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.12971875000002,"end":254.38784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.89971875,"end":165.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.84659375,"end":181.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.43659375000001,"end":185.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.63909375,"end":185.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.08971875,"end":191.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.48096875000002,"end":198.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.70846875,"end":201.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.22284375,"end":203.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.39159375000003,"end":203.52659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.31284375,"end":221.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.46534375000002,"end":244.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.53971875000002,"end":296.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.71971875,"end":263.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.74409375000005,"end":300.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.15284375000005,"end":360.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.80596875000003,"end":333.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.91721875,"end":349.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.53159375,"end":370.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.45034375,"end":367.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.78346875,"end":369.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.21784375000004,"end":375.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.34784375000004,"end":393.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.72471875,"end":396.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.27284375000005,"end":397.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.53846875000005,"end":400.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.66034375000004,"end":403.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.56284375,"end":405.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.33034375000005,"end":414.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.95346875,"end":420.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.72471875,"end":426.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.85471875,"end":457.41096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.36784375,"end":436.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.59971875,"end":437.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.58971875000003,"end":448.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.25534375,"end":454.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.30971875,"end":459.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.76534375000006,"end":458.05221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.414,"end":7.035,"text":"謝謝主席請主席邀請王部長王部長部長早安今天委員會就是針對這個國道六號東延花蓮的建設以及花蓮地震陸海空應變機制進行這個詢答我們知道就是民意代表基於這個職者替地方爭取交通建設我想這個都是天經地義無可厚非的"},{"start":32.439,"end":43.355,"text":"所以對於這個目前有委員要倡議推動福道六號東延花蓮這個建設目前針對這個建設我們交通部有沒有什麼相關的作為?"},{"start":44.232,"end":63.476,"text":"是,我跟委員報告,我們現在去年年底啟動叫做路廊踏勘及地質踏勘這兩個工作所以我們現在等下找這個路,還有包括地質的調查,剛才談到這個中央商賣太多的這個斷層、原爆還有一些還有一個環境敏感地帶"},{"start":64.477,"end":87.576,"text":"那我們是覺得整個國道六號東延我們現在在就是已經持正面態度在做這個相關研究但是他一定要經過這個嚴肅的一個評估我們在進行後續所以我們是覺得說還是要有一個嚴謹的評估這個道路未來可行會更高所以我們是希望朝這方面來走的"},{"start":87.896,"end":108.624,"text":"對,我們知道就是每一件這個重大的工程都不是一觸可及的而且它的完成也是牽涉的面很廣那條件也不一樣所以我們在推動這個公共的建設就是有一定的一個流程跟期程所以今天這個副委員他提出了這個國道六號東延的這個條例那就"},{"start":111.505,"end":111.665,"text":" ﹝無言﹞"},{"start":137.176,"end":150.792,"text":"這個委員所提的這些可行性評估到這個施工的這個過程那我們是覺得這樣事實上跟我們過去的這個嚴謹的是違反的我們是期待還是走回這個地方是"},{"start":151.432,"end":178.15,"text":"對,因為剛剛我有提到就是每一個公共建設的完成它牽涉的人面很廣那具備的條件不一樣所以尤其就是說以目前他們在推動的這個國道六號因為尤其要通過這個中央山脈這個是中央山脈也是被這個就是一些保育專家列為是一個地質敏感區跟保育區所以未來是不是可以在這樣子的一個環境敏感區來興建這個"},{"start":181.292,"end":202.777,"text":"快速公路我想這個都是要經過審慎的一個評估那尤其我們看到這一次0403的這個花蓮大地震這個相信也是這個大自然對我們的一個警示因為以前都說人定可以勝天我想當大自然反撲的時候我想是沒有任何人可以去阻擋的"},{"start":203.217,"end":221.408,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":221.408,"end":240.572,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":240.572,"end":259.94,"text":" ＼"},{"start":259.98,"end":285.032,"text":"那一天還好車輛不是這個連駕的第一天若是連駕第一天這個路上的車輛很多恐怕會造成更多的一個災難我想這個都是沒有辦法去預期的那這一次的這個大地震事實上本席這邊也要肯定我們交通部的一個相關的應變因為包括在就是搶修又像清水斷橋這個橋斷了我們可以馬上就原有的舊橋來做一個"},{"start":289.775,"end":317.71,"text":"就是一個復旧來搶通還有包括就是一些旅客的一個輸運包括鐵路的一個搶通我想這個都是大家看在眼裡這個應變的速度是蠻快的那當然就是說對於天災真的我們沒有辦法去就是抵擋那當然我們也希望就是能夠掌握的那個黃金的應變時間所以這個災害預警告警的系統就非常的重要"},{"start":318.15,"end":332.101,"text":"那這次我們也看到就是說台鐵在這個落實的預警系統有發揮功能就是說在地震發生的那一天就是有一個太魯閣號因為預警系統所以他可以趕快停下來避免這個落實去"},{"start":334.302,"end":356.833,"text":"就是造成這個災害就是意外可是之後相隔應該是一個禮拜就發生了普悠瑪號因為擦撞到這個落石而出軌這個也是造成乘客真的是驚魂未定所以我們真的我們也不能說每次都是靠運氣因為我們還是要盡好做好這個防災這個預警的這樣子的一個"},{"start":361.295,"end":377.641,"text":"就是預先的一個告警系統那我們就是說針對這次的地震之後我們有沒有更積極的一些作為是不是可以請部長講一下我們在台鐵沿線現在有26處的這個落石預警告警系統那後期還有38處"},{"start":379.201,"end":402.768,"text":"那這38處應該到年底會完成一半以上然後明年會全部完成那的確這一次這個大小一陣大概800多次整個在花蓮的這些邊坡都已經改變很大了所以我有跟我們這個董事長這邊特別提就是說38處如果在花蓮地區他們現在已經"},{"start":403.558,"end":426.271,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":426.371,"end":454.554,"text":"我想交通便利都是每一個鄉親的一個期待也是需求不過再怎麼樣的就是便利我們還是要以安全為首要所以就是說就現有的一個交通路線不管是鐵公路的一個安全的一個維護或者是預警系統的一個加強建制我想這個是必要的包括年代的就是說未來一個新屁公路的一個安全性我想這個也是我們"},{"start":455.356,"end":458.711,"text":"一定要是首要考量的。好,我們會持續努力。"}]}},{"id":"151270","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151270","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016270c26b370b16c5da80e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c94bb7f1b8e8d3d49e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"11:08:24 - 11:17:38","影片長度":"00:09:14","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":554,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:17:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:08:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":176,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（11時8分）謝謝主席陳雪生召委。我們請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["王部長國材：何委員好。"],["何委員欣純：部長好。我們今天談花蓮地震，震災之後我看媒體有報導，事實上落石有落到鐵道，我就想到不管是天災或者是事故，安全永遠排第一。我之前在臺中捷運發生事故的時候，曾經要求交通部要盤點捷運週遭的工程，還有釐清楚禁限建的規範。甚至進一步的，不是只有軌道，還有我們的國道、快速道路等等，週邊禁限建工程的盤點，因為除了地震有可能影響到這些工程的建築物，或者是它相關的建材設施、設備的掉落，也有可能因為發生了不知原因的事故，也會導致可能如臺中捷運那樣子的一個狀況，臺中捷運的狀況是已經非常完整的清楚，因為我知道運安會也有一個相關的完整報告出來。但是我們應該防患於未然，依照過去的經驗，面對未來防止相關的事件再發生。確實當時你有承諾在2個月內，協調地方政府盤點及清查軌道、國道或快速道路周邊禁限建區的工程狀況來保障安全，對不對？"],["王部長國材：對。"],["何委員欣純：我也很高興看到確實交通部有盤點。他有給我一個表，有好幾張，那個表裡面我只是擷取一張quote出來，可能跟中部有關係。確實當時有盤點出來，但是這個是112年當下給我的情形，現在的狀況你知道嗎？有沒有再更新？"],["王部長國材：應該有再更新，我們同仁……"],["何委員欣純：我跟你講，沒有再更新。"],["王部長國材：應該是……"],["何委員欣純：112年在我的要求之下，確實你們有盤點，盤點出來……現在螢幕上給你的頁面是有關中部的，確實有工程名稱、在哪一個快速道路或國道旁邊、工程內容是什麼、是不是有起重機的吊臂，或者有什麼其他的設施、設備，確實當時有盤點，但是那是112年，112年到現在沒有，為什麼？因為我們並沒有建置相關的系統。部長，你認為該不該建置全國性的整合平臺，而且資訊應該公開透明？"],["王部長國材：好，這個我再瞭解一下。當時有請各地方政府，包括我們自己的單位，旁邊有一些臨軌工程的，把它做一個調查。資料是不是有更新的部分我要確定。"],["何委員欣純：沒有啦！"],["王部長國材：我覺得這需要……"],["何委員欣純：部長，沒有，我確定。"],["王部長國材：這需要確認。"],["何委員欣純：對啦！我可以跟你確定，當年（112年）是在我要求的時候才給我。"],["王部長國材：好。"],["何委員欣純：給我的只是當下、那時候的盤點狀況，現在我看到光是中部地區就有很多新建案、很多工程正在進行當中，但是資料並沒有更新，因為我們沒有建置系統平臺。當然我知道你們需要計畫、需要預算建置，既然你現在承諾應該需要，是不是以最快的速度責成相關單位，趕快匡列預算建置相關的系統整合平臺，可以更新，可以公開？"],["王部長國材：首先，定期更新這部分……"],["何委員欣純：怎麼公開？"],["王部長國材：這個系統還沒有建以前，比如說公布在交通部的網站等等，可以這樣做。"],["何委員欣純：是，我建議分短、中、長期，你說在系統平臺還沒有建置之前……"],["王部長國材：定期更新。"],["何委員欣純：是不是應該趕快更新、趕快盤點、趕快公布在你們的官網？"],["王部長國材：好。"],["何委員欣純：如果可以的話，我希望能夠建立一個系統、整合平臺，讓全臺灣各地相關的捷運、國道、省道、快速道路等，都納入在我們的盤點範圍裡面，這個涉及安全，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好……"],["何委員欣純：好，這個你答應嘛！","接下來一點點時間，我要談臺中機場的事情，部長，臺中機場周邊我知道有一個2040的計畫，但是昨天地方政府回答地方議員，說機場周邊的開發評估完成，但是因為中央定位不明，所以地方政府很難定計畫。部長，臺中國際機場的定位不明嗎？"],["王部長國材：現在非常明確，以區域為主，而且航線一直增加，包括星宇也把它當hub……"],["何委員欣純：一個基地，一個……"],["王部長國材：對，中部機場有區域性的角色。"],["何委員欣純：而且是很重要的區域性的起飛航站。"],["王部長國材：還有離島。"],["何委員欣純：還有離島的航線，還有國際航線。"],["王部長國材：我們再瞭解一下。"],["何委員欣純：服務中部地區很重要，對不對？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["何委員欣純：我覺得要跟地方溝通，為什麼？"],["王部長國材：好。"],["何委員欣純：臺中國際機場從陳水扁時代，在2004有三個第一，我們讓臺中機場升格為國際機場，當時也是在胡志強市長的時代，中央、地方合作，讓臺中機場可以升級成為國際機場，到了林佳龍時代，我們更積極推動，為什麼？因為我們增加了航線，是不是？也增加了航班。甚至在疫情期間，我們希望能夠化危機為轉機，疫情期間我們定計畫、編預算，讓臺中的國際機場可以煥然一新，不管是空間或者是相關設施、設備的提升，我們有投資經費在那裡，對不對？","現在的臺中國際機場更需要中央跟地方政府一起合作，讓臺中國際機場……你剛剛跟我講，我們的定位很明確，很清楚，那要如何讓臺中國際機場大展身手，服務中部地區的民眾？我們的計畫是不是應該滾動式的檢討，讓地方政府知道中央很積極，地方也應該積極的共同參與，讓我們的臺中國際機場可以「轉骨」？"],["王部長國材：是，現在臺中國際機場2040計畫已經出來，裡面包括未來的第三航廈。我知道過去委員在談橘線──機場線，我覺得它的重要性尤其是變成輔助桃園機場很重要的一個機場。這個部分我們是不是把相關的資料讓臺中市政府知道我們後續的計畫？"],["何委員欣純：讓臺中市政府知道我們對臺中國際機場，第一個，定位明確；第二個，滾動式的檢討。甚至我們中央民代不分黨派、不分顏色，都希望積極的讓臺中國際機場2040的整體規劃案可以儘早、提早時程，建置我們的臺中國際機場，對不對？讓地方政府知道，地方政府周邊該配合的也應該明確表示如何配合，共同讓臺中國際機場更好，對不對？好不好？"],["王部長國材：好，這個部分我們來跟臺中市政府討論一下我們的想法跟它都市計畫變更的……"],["何委員欣純：我們盡力溝通，好不好？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["何委員欣純：讓臺中國際機場、臺中地區、中部地區能夠有一個國際級機場，讓國人可以飛出去觀光，國外的旅客也可以飛進來臺中觀光，好不好？"],["王部長國材：好。"],["何委員欣純：謝謝。"],["王部長國材：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝何欣純委員的發言。","下一位請陳素月委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃仁","許智傑","陳培瑜","沈伯洋"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1133001_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.06846875,"end":4.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.9372187499999995,"end":12.923468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.552218750000002,"end":13.075343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.239093750000002,"end":18.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.96471875,"end":54.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.127843750000004,"end":57.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.642218750000005,"end":74.34846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.37784375000001,"end":81.94221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.94221875000001,"end":82.12784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.09409375,"end":126.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.98721875000001,"end":118.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.15159375,"end":120.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.86346875000001,"end":140.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.47721875000002,"end":143.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.90721875,"end":143.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.94096875,"end":143.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.34596875,"end":147.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.88971875000001,"end":148.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.95284375,"end":150.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.57284375,"end":156.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.39096875,"end":155.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.57596875000002,"end":165.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.76096875000002,"end":161.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.96346875,"end":162.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.01346875000002,"end":187.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.55846875,"end":193.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.58721875,"end":194.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.73471875,"end":196.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.03409375,"end":196.25346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.25346875000002,"end":196.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.52346875,"end":203.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.78909375,"end":198.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.22784375,"end":198.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.98221875000002,"end":216.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.41971875000002,"end":212.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.43659375000001,"end":212.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.82471875000002,"end":212.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.07721875000001,"end":217.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.00534375,"end":222.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.12346875,"end":219.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.27096875,"end":221.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.88659375,"end":224.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.61221875,"end":222.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.90721875000003,"end":228.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.88971875000001,"end":229.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.10909375000003,"end":245.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.59159375000002,"end":246.82784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.60846875000001,"end":264.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.19659375000003,"end":263.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.19221875,"end":270.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.18784375,"end":265.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.20471875000004,"end":265.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.35659375,"end":265.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.76159375000003,"end":265.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.85846875000004,"end":268.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.73971875,"end":278.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.83971875000003,"end":281.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.21096875,"end":279.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.18534375,"end":281.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.25284375,"end":300.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.00346875,"end":284.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.61909375,"end":286.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.63596875,"end":287.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.41846875000005,"end":302.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.22846875000005,"end":305.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.05909375000005,"end":311.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.66596875000005,"end":313.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.40846875,"end":312.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.06221875,"end":313.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.09596875,"end":314.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.22221875,"end":316.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.66909375,"end":318.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.17534375,"end":318.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.69846875,"end":324.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.46534375000005,"end":328.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.70534375,"end":345.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.76596875,"end":348.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.90471875000003,"end":359.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.24471875,"end":367.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.36284375,"end":361.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.80909375000005,"end":369.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.52596875,"end":371.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.64409375,"end":393.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.50846875,"end":373.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.69409375000004,"end":373.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.96409375,"end":374.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.12409375000004,"end":376.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.56284375,"end":376.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.21846875,"end":403.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.49096875000004,"end":409.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.53659375,"end":409.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.99221875,"end":449.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.71846875000006,"end":433.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.76909375,"end":434.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.37659375000004,"end":434.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.31096875000003,"end":449.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.28971875,"end":466.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.37159375000005,"end":482.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.74034375,"end":493.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.08471875000004,"end":511.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.51221875000005,"end":511.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":511.84971875,"end":513.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.53284375,"end":529.1297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.22846875,"end":519.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.72034375,"end":531.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.28971875,"end":538.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":531.54284375,"end":531.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":537.9890937499999,"end":538.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.03971875,"end":538.4109687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.4109687499999,"end":538.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.9509687500001,"end":553.2947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.6340937500001,"end":541.8872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.92784375,"end":552.2990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.7378437500001,"end":553.64909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.999,"end":10.031,"text":"有沒有鞠躬?謝謝主席陳學生召會。我們請部長"},{"start":19.115,"end":42.028,"text":"市長好,我們今天談花蓮地震那震災之後呢我看媒體有報導那事實上落石有落到這個鐵道那我就想到說不管是天災或者是事故那安全永遠排第一那我之前在台中捷運發生事故的時候曾經在"},{"start":42.748,"end":64.307,"text":"要求我們交通部要盤點捷運周遭的工程還有離清楚近線建的一個規範那甚至進一步的不是只有軌道還有呢我們的國道快速道路等等這周邊的近線建的這個工程的盤點因為呢除了"},{"start":64.787,"end":74.753,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":75.404,"end":102.475,"text":"告知原因的事故也會導致可能如台中捷運那樣子的一個狀況那台中捷運的狀況是已經非常完整的清楚因為我知道我們運安會也有一個相關完整的報告出來但是我覺得我們應該防範於未來而且能夠依照過去的經驗要來面對未來能夠防止相關的事件在發生所以我記得"},{"start":105.076,"end":125.936,"text":"對於這個確實當時你也承諾要在兩個月內協調地方政府來盤點清查不管是軌道、國道或各快速道路周邊進線建區的這所謂的工程的狀況來保障安全嘛對不對那我也很高興看到確實我們交通部有盤點他有給了我一"},{"start":126.817,"end":148.285,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":149.028,"end":165.255,"text":"有沒有再更新應該有再更新我們同仁在我跟你講沒有再更新應該是當時候112年在我的要求之下確實你們有去盤點那盤點出來呢依我現在螢幕上"},{"start":166.255,"end":193.255,"text":"給你的頁面是有關中部的那確實有工程名稱啊在哪一個快速道路或國道旁邊啊那這個工程內容是什麼啦是不是有所謂的起重機的吊臂啦齁或者有什麼其他的這個設施設備確實當時候有去盤點但是呢那是112年112年到現在呢沒有為什麼呢因為我們並沒有相關的系統來建置"},{"start":194.793,"end":201.698,"text":"那部長你認為該不該建制所謂全國性的這樣子的整合平台而且應該資訊公開透明"},{"start":204.746,"end":228.523,"text":"我再瞭解一下當時就是請各地方政府還有包括我們自己的單位旁邊有一些零軌工程的把它做一個調查那資料是不是更新的部分我在因為今天是沒有還沒有我還要確定我可以跟你確定因為當年一、二年的時候是在我的要求的時候才給我"},{"start":229.684,"end":245.896,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":246.716,"end":263.895,"text":"那這個當然我知道你們需要計畫需要預算來建制那部長你現在很多說應該需要那是不是趕快在最快的速度裡面折成相關單位趕快編匡列預算趕快做這個建制這個相關的系統整合平台"},{"start":266.196,"end":280.184,"text":"首先定期的更新這部要做那怎麼公開就是把這個資料如果這個系統還沒有建以前比如說公布在交通部的網站等等的可以這樣做是 所以我是建議"},{"start":281.825,"end":305.18,"text":"有分短中長期你說在系統平台還沒有建置之前那是不是應該趕快更新趕快盤點趕快更新趕快公布在你們的官網那如果可以的話我是希望能夠建立一個系統建立一個整合平台讓全台灣各地相關的捷運、國道、省道、快速道路等"},{"start":306.121,"end":327.77,"text":"都應該要納入在我們的盤點範圍裡面這個是安全啦好不好好這你答應嗎好那接下來一點點時間我就要問台中機場的事情喔部長台中機場的周邊我知道有一個204年的計畫啦但是呢昨天昨天地方政府有"},{"start":328.792,"end":339.965,"text":"回答地方議員說這個機場周邊的開發評估完成是因為中央定位不明所以我地方政府很難定計劃那部長我們這個台中國際機場的定位不明嗎?"},{"start":345.811,"end":368.577,"text":"我現在非常明確那個就是說現在以這個區域當它為主而且現在的航線一直在增加包括新宇你把它當這個等於是hub來一個基地嘛一個題目我想中部機場有它的這種區域性的角色而且很重要的區域性的一個"},{"start":370.892,"end":390.621,"text":"還有離島、離島的航線、還有國際的航線那服務中部地區很重要嘛對不對所以部長我覺得要跟地方溝通啦為什麼因為從台中國際機場從沉水扁時代在2004三個台中第一、三個第一我們來讓台中機場升格為國際機場一定要"},{"start":393.402,"end":408.884,"text":"也是當時胡志強市長的時代我們中央地方合作讓台中機場可以升級成為國際機場那到了林佳龍時代我們更積極來推動因為我們增加了航線"},{"start":410.166,"end":432.902,"text":"是不是也增加了航班那甚至在疫情期間我們呢希望能夠化危機為轉機在疫情期間我們也定計劃我們也編預算讓台中的國際機場可以煥然一新我們呢不管是空間或者是相關的設施設備的提升這個我們有投資經費在那裡嘛對不對部長"},{"start":433.903,"end":442.331,"text":"所以我建議說現在的台中國際機場更需要中央跟地方政府一起來讓這個台中國際機場你剛剛跟我講我們定位很明確啊我們很清楚我們要讓台中國際機場如何"},{"start":450.333,"end":466.186,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":466.434,"end":492.413,"text":"是,因為我們現在台中國際機場2040計畫已經出來,裡面包括我們未來第三航廈然後我知道過去委員在談這個局限,局限就是機場一線我覺得它的重要性是尤其是變成這個很重要的台灣機場的一個輔助的很重要的機場我想這部分我們是不是把這個相關的資料跟台中市政府讓他知道我們後續的一個計畫"},{"start":493.574,"end":506.649,"text":"讓台中市政府知道我們對台中國際機場第一個定位明確第二個滾動式檢討甚至我們中央民道民代不分黨派不分顏色都希望積極的來讓台中國際機場的這個2040的整體規劃案可以盡早提早"},{"start":514.605,"end":528.27,"text":"提早施程 對不對來建置我們的台中國際機場 對不對那讓地方政府知道說地方政府周邊該配合的也應該明確的表示如何在配合共同來讓台中國際機場"},{"start":529.65,"end":553.814,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"}]}},{"id":"151269","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151269","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627c715ae1ac06800970e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c94f0c8cd608c1fd9b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:59:12 - 11:08:15","影片長度":"00:09:03","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":543,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:08:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:59:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":126,"blocks":[["林委員俊憲：（10時59分）感謝雪公主席。本席邀請交通部王部長。"],["主席：王部長請。"],["林委員俊憲：我也請臺鐵。臺鐵在嗎？公路局長在嗎？"],["王部長國材：林委員好。"],["林委員俊憲：部長，4月3日發生了花蓮大地震，4月10日有一塊落石在台9線160K的地方掉下來打到了火車，你知道吧？"],["王部長國材：知道。"],["林委員俊憲：還好運氣好，那個石頭非常、非常大，砸中了臺鐵，幸好沒有人傷亡。"],["王部長國材：它是掉在軌道的旁邊，然後車子在行駛中去擦撞它。"],["林委員俊憲：好，但是那個地方就是台9線160K，臺鐵說那個地方不是落石區，你知道吧，臺灣經過地震以後，所有鐵公路沿線都做邊坡安全檢測。這次發生這塊大石頭的地方，臺鐵裡面是不列為落石區，但是很奇怪，公路局是把它列為落石區，是同樣一座山、同樣一個地方，台9線鐵公路是並行的，是連在一起的，為什麼一個單位說是落石區，一個單位說不是？"],["王部長國材：我先初步說明一下。台9線是在鐵路的上面，所以台9它的邊坡，然後鐵路在下面……"],["林委員俊憲：所以不是嗎？"],["王部長國材：等於是從……"],["林委員俊憲：掉到公路，不會再往下掉？再滾過去就到鐵路啦！一條在上面，一條在下面啊，你有規定石頭只能滾到公路就要停下來？如果公路以上是落石區，鐵路當然也是吧，這樣才合理吧？哪有可能同一個地方，公總說它那個邊坡是落石區，那臺鐵同樣經過啊！"],["王部長國材：是。"],["林委員俊憲：就旁邊而已啊！兩條線上下平行的啊！"],["王部長國材：是。"],["林委員俊憲：但又不是落石區。"],["王部長國材：的確，那個公路事實上等於在我們蘇花安裡面的和平到和中段。"],["林委員俊憲：你們要全部再去通盤檢討、檢測。當時就是發生了落石意外，因為地震，你知道臺灣現在地震恐怕越來越頻繁了。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["林委員俊憲：2022年臺東就6級多了，今年2024年花蓮就7級多了，上次大地震在臺南，2018年嘛！對不對？也是6級多大地震嘛！就算公路局把它列為落石區，那麼既然是落石區，公路局也沒有安裝落石警告系統，所以它沒有辦法預先偵測到落石，它也沒辦法去警告臺鐵。我來找一下，目前公路局的落石警告系統就做了大概這8個地方，是經費預算不夠嗎？還是要逐年安裝，還沒有安裝好？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，因為我們主要還是做防落石相關設施，告警的話其實就是先警告用路者，比如說前方的，不過有落石的地方，我們是先做邊坡的整治。"],["林委員俊憲：你們不要看這個是小事情喔！"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["林委員俊憲：你們那個邊坡檢測都假的啊！同一個邊坡，臺鐵說不是落石區，公總說是，我就用這個案子給你參考。"],["王部長國材：是。我跟委員報告，的確……"],["林委員俊憲：而且這個地方確實發生損害了，還好落石沒有直接擊中車廂，也沒有導致火車翻覆或遊客有死傷，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["王部長國材：我想這部分要跟鐵路和公路都要做個討論。"],["林委員俊憲：再來我談一下今天的主題，就是國六東延到花蓮這個問題，我記得以前高工局有估算過預算，好像3年前估8,800億，是不是這樣？"],["王部長國材：大概8,000億左右。"],["林委員俊憲：8,000億嘛！"],["王部長國材：對。"],["林委員俊憲：那是3年前，但如果以現在，我看要破兆了。3年來加上物調，再加上人工、物料的漲價，超級錢坑！重點是蓋得起來嗎？做得起來嗎？"],["王部長國材：所以我們現在……"],["林委員俊憲：國民黨提的這個國六東延規定10年要完成，你知道雪隧12公里花了15年，在國六東延裡面最困難的就是能高山，能高山隧道幾公里？好像18公里吧！"],["趙局長興華：17公里多。"],["林委員俊憲：17公里多，比雪隧還要長，雪隧花15年喔，能高山要花幾年？"],["趙局長興華：跟委員報告，這個還要再評估。"],["林委員俊憲：還要再評估嘛！"],["王部長國材：也需要很長的時間。"],["林委員俊憲：而且能高山那個地質很脆弱的，什麼岩盤啦、湧泉啦等等，挖個雪隧死了13個人，我看能高山這種難度會更危險，對不對？同時為了要東延到花蓮，那個橋墩要架很高，因為它才可以通過高山嘛！我看你的計畫裡面估算，這非常可怕，臺灣第二高，附近的南投國姓鄉那個橋墩70公尺，就是橋墩高有23層樓，現在國六如果東延，到霧社就將近1,150公尺，比國姓還要高很多，所以橋墩恐怕一定會破100公尺，100公尺是30幾層樓高的橋墩，然後還要再估算它能不能抵擋天災、強震，而且它也不是直接就做那麼高，而是要慢慢、慢慢、慢慢讓那個車子爬坡上去，所以這個工程有相當高的一個困難度。","我看這個計畫，傅崐萁委員都拿歐洲，尤其是瑞士的鐵路隧道來做比較，瑞士的山脈都是古老山脈岩盤，那個非常穩定，但臺灣不一樣，臺灣的中央山脈是新生的山脈，尤其像能高山這種，中央山脈的地質是片岩，一片一片的，那個很脆弱，挖下去很容易整個崩塌下來，所以困難度絕對是遠高於瑞士隧道。因為要挖隧道就要把岩盤破壞掉，因為它整個都是石頭，要把它挖起來嘛！雪隧的岩盤覆蓋高度大概是750公尺，國六這個都超過1,000公尺，各位可以想一想當時挖雪隧挖了十幾年，挖得很痛苦，現在限定國六到花蓮要10年完成，這哪有可能啦？而且又經過了丹大野生動物保護區、能丹野鳥棲息地，光是環評就要做到何年何月了？所以怎麼可能？怎麼可能限期完成？而且是一個破兆的工程，蓋下去如果蓋到一半蓋不起來，蓋下去以後安全性的考量，這是一個超級錢坑法案，不要這樣亂搞啦！對不對？現在花東公路最重要的是趕快去做蘇花安，蘇花改做好了嘛！所以趕快去做蘇花安，趕快把它做好啦！"],["王部長國材：是。"],["林委員俊憲：這才是花蓮人回家安全的路，對不對？"],["王部長國材：對。"],["林委員俊憲：這個已經在做的要趕快去做，包括地方的溝通，蘇花安光一個高架，居民就反對了，反對就沒辦法，但它稍微一修改就經過國家公園，環評就卡在那裡了，更何況整個國道六，這個環評恐怕更複雜。所以我是覺得政策一定要考量現實面，還有它的可執行度，否則都沒辦法啦！好不好？我提幾點來跟大家做參考、交換意見。"],["王部長國材：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員俊憲：好，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝林俊憲委員的發言。","下一位請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃仁","許智傑","陳培瑜","沈伯洋"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1133001_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.0853437500000003,"end":5.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.56596875,"end":8.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.61659375,"end":5.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.476593750000003,"end":11.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.075343750000002,"end":13.969718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.239718750000002,"end":15.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.21409375,"end":17.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.82159375,"end":17.496593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.78346875,"end":20.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.12471875,"end":22.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.67721875,"end":22.879718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.16659375,"end":24.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.22534375,"end":26.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.36846875,"end":30.254093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.69284375,"end":32.009093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.447843750000004,"end":33.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.52784375,"end":34.135343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.02971875,"end":37.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.42159375,"end":40.142843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.547843750000006,"end":41.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.79659375,"end":47.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.45846875,"end":46.791593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.66909375,"end":48.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.33971875,"end":52.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.64721875,"end":53.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.13221875,"end":61.945343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.265968750000006,"end":64.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.16846875,"end":65.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.43409375,"end":67.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.48034375,"end":69.72471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.99034375000001,"end":73.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.96034375,"end":74.58471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.78721875000001,"end":75.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.37346875,"end":77.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.47034375,"end":79.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.38971875,"end":82.16159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.88721875,"end":84.69284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.76034375,"end":85.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.07659375,"end":89.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.89034375,"end":91.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.37534375,"end":95.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.52721875,"end":91.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.47596875,"end":100.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.91034375000001,"end":97.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.42471875000001,"end":100.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.38659375,"end":100.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.74096875000001,"end":104.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.63534375,"end":104.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.26784375000001,"end":106.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.19971875,"end":110.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.41034375000001,"end":110.56221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.78159375000001,"end":112.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.40159375,"end":113.98784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.27034375000001,"end":118.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.10096875,"end":119.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.78846875,"end":122.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.67846875000001,"end":124.07909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.23096875,"end":126.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.21784375000001,"end":128.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.90534375000001,"end":130.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.74471875,"end":131.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.95971875,"end":132.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.44909375,"end":132.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.97221875,"end":133.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.50784375,"end":139.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.38471875000002,"end":142.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.92846875,"end":142.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.96221875,"end":143.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.02971875,"end":143.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.10971875,"end":145.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.86034375,"end":149.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.23534375,"end":151.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.36596875,"end":151.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.66971875000002,"end":156.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.17096875000001,"end":158.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.28034375000001,"end":160.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.65971875,"end":163.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.37659375,"end":166.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.22846875000002,"end":167.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.76409375,"end":171.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.98721875,"end":172.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.79284375,"end":177.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.23096875000002,"end":179.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.76221875000002,"end":184.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.21721875,"end":188.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.36846875,"end":191.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.55784375000002,"end":196.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.21534375000002,"end":198.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.86471875,"end":201.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.02909375000002,"end":202.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.98659375000003,"end":221.09346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.79409375,"end":221.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.30846875,"end":222.96659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.96659375000002,"end":224.04659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.55284375000002,"end":224.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.60346875000002,"end":226.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.78034375000001,"end":229.53096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.17221875,"end":232.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.68659375000001,"end":233.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.19284375,"end":235.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.84221875000003,"end":237.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.58034375000003,"end":238.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.82909375000003,"end":240.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.44471875000002,"end":242.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.64284375000003,"end":243.45284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.95909375000002,"end":246.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.54096875000002,"end":247.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.92471875,"end":249.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.99221875,"end":252.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.98721875,"end":255.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.08846875,"end":253.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.20221875000001,"end":256.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.96971875,"end":257.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.18909375000004,"end":259.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.01971875000004,"end":261.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.82534375,"end":263.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.53409375,"end":265.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":265.59284375000004,"end":266.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.79096875,"end":269.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":270.08159375,"end":271.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.11096875000004,"end":273.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":271.76909375,"end":272.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.62534375,"end":274.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.32971875000004,"end":276.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.81034375,"end":278.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.51909375,"end":279.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.02096875,"end":281.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.80971875,"end":283.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.08784375,"end":284.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.85971875,"end":287.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.05346875000004,"end":289.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.61409375,"end":292.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":294.19596875,"end":295.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.09034375000005,"end":299.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.15721875,"end":301.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.44346875,"end":305.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.83971875000003,"end":306.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.52284375,"end":310.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.98659375,"end":311.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.79659375,"end":313.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.19284375,"end":315.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.81284375,"end":316.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":316.87596875,"end":318.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.75346875,"end":320.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.92596875000004,"end":322.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.22096875,"end":323.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.75659375000004,"end":325.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.86596875000004,"end":330.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":329.68409375000005,"end":331.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.38846875,"end":336.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.63221875000005,"end":340.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.60221875,"end":342.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.77909375,"end":343.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.98971875,"end":345.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.40721875,"end":347.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.92596875000004,"end":349.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.30971875,"end":351.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.06034375,"end":353.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.40596875,"end":356.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.00471875,"end":357.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.28721875,"end":361.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.61159375,"end":364.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.73346875000004,"end":367.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.95659375,"end":369.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.15034375000005,"end":372.25971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.81659375000004,"end":375.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.53346875,"end":376.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.96346875,"end":380.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.86159375,"end":383.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.27034375000005,"end":388.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.59034375000005,"end":392.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.31971875000005,"end":394.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.19284375,"end":398.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.65221875000003,"end":399.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.50846875,"end":408.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.65471875000003,"end":413.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.34596875000005,"end":415.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.10096875000005,"end":419.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.28596875000005,"end":423.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.98159375,"end":426.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.03596875000005,"end":428.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.60096875000005,"end":431.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.21221875000003,"end":436.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.94159375000004,"end":439.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.08034375000005,"end":442.57784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.96596875,"end":444.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.67034375000003,"end":447.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.87659375000004,"end":449.78346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.67784375,"end":452.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.85471875,"end":455.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.94284375,"end":456.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.20846875,"end":457.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.28409375,"end":460.71846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.00534375,"end":461.56221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.76471875000004,"end":463.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.12721875000005,"end":465.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.20284375000006,"end":470.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.48471875,"end":474.74159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.55159375000005,"end":476.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.91846875000005,"end":478.08284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.85909375000006,"end":479.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.19221875000005,"end":481.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.43659375000004,"end":484.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.01846875,"end":487.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.58346875,"end":488.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.38471875000005,"end":491.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.81471875000005,"end":494.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.68784375,"end":499.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.18096875000003,"end":498.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.53096875000006,"end":499.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.71659375,"end":499.95284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.83471875000004,"end":499.91909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.93596875000003,"end":504.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.80846875000003,"end":506.24721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.51721875000004,"end":507.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.59284375000004,"end":509.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.48284375000003,"end":513.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.6172187500001,"end":516.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.65909375,"end":519.3759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.0847187500001,"end":521.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.7722187500001,"end":522.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.7678437500001,"end":523.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.7590937500001,"end":525.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.0247187500001,"end":527.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.9653437500001,"end":529.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.2097187500001,"end":530.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.15471875,"end":534.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.90096875,"end":536.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.3815937500001,"end":542.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":540.97596875,"end":542.69721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.406,"end":26.025,"text":"感謝雪公主席本期邀請我們交通部王部長王部長請委員請台鐵,台鐵在嗎?公總在嗎?公路局在嗎?部長我們4月3號發生發生了花蓮大地震那4月10號有一塊落石"},{"start":27.461,"end":47.714,"text":"在台九線160的地方掉下來打到了火車你知道吧知道是還有運氣啊那個石頭非常非常大砸中了台鐵啊幸好沒有人傷亡啊他是掉在軌道的旁邊然後車子在走去插到去插中他好"},{"start":49.38,"end":78.889,"text":"但是那個地方就是台九線160台鐵說那個地方不是落石區了。台鐵你知道嗎?台灣經過地震以後我們所有的鐵公路沿線都做邊坡的安全檢測。所以在這一次發生這塊大石頭的地方台鐵裡面是不列為落石區了。但是很奇怪了公路局是把它列為落石區了。"},{"start":80.461,"end":105.797,"text":"是同樣一座山,同樣一個地方。台九線這個鐵公路是並行的,是連在一起的。為什麼一個單位說落石區,一個單位說不是?我先初步說明一下。台九線是在鐵路的上面,所以台九有它的邊坡,然後鐵路在下面,鐵路有它的邊坡。所以不是嗎?它等於是從……它掉到公路不會再往下掉,再滾過去就到鐵路啊。"},{"start":108.72,"end":119.728,"text":"他一條上面一條下面啊你有規定石頭只能滾到公路就要停下來啊如果你公路以上是落水區你鐵路當然也是吧這樣才合理吧"},{"start":120.816,"end":148.857,"text":"那花蓮港鐵所在公路公總說它那個邊坡是落實區那台鐵同樣經過啊就旁邊有兩條線上下平行的啊它就變不是落實區的確那個公路齁它事實上我們等於在我們蘇阿安裡面的和平到合作我們要全部再去全部要再去通盤檢討檢測啦因為當時就是發生了那個落實的意外嘛"},{"start":150.287,"end":179.104,"text":"地震嘛你知道台灣現在地震恐怕越來越頻繁了2022年台東就六級多啦今年2024年花蓮就七級多了上次大地震在台南2018年嘛對不對也是六級多大地震嘛好那就算公路局把它列為落實區啊那公路局啊既然是落實區他也沒有安裝落實警告系統那種地方也沒有也沒有"},{"start":180.799,"end":201.998,"text":"也沒有裝上所以他沒有辦法預先偵測到落實他也沒辦法去警告台鐵那我來找一下目前公務局的落實警告系統就做大概這8個地方了是經費預算不夠嗎還是你逐年安裝還沒有做好"},{"start":203.753,"end":223.733,"text":"各位報告因為我們主要還是做就是說防落實的相關的一個設施啦因為告警的話就是說他其實是就是說是先警告就是用路者比如說前方的不過因為有落實的地方的話其實我們是先做整治你不要看這個小事情喔你那個變波檢測都假的啊"},{"start":224.619,"end":246.287,"text":"同一個邊坡台鐵說不是落實區公總說是我就用這個案用這個案子給你參考了而且這個地方確實發生損害啦還好啦落實沒有直接擊中車廂啦有沒有導致火車翻覆或遊客有死傷啦"},{"start":249.552,"end":276.079,"text":"我跟鐵路跟公路都要做個討論啦再來我來談一下今天的主題啦國六東延到花蓮的問題啦我記得當以前高空局有估算過預算嘛好像3年前估8815這樣子大概8000億左右8000億嘛那3年前嘛而如果以現在啊我看要破照啦"},{"start":278.713,"end":289.197,"text":"三年來再加上物條再加上人工物料的漲價這超級乾坑啊那重點是蓋得起來嗎?你做得開嗎?在這個國民黨提的這個東延國六東延裡面它規定10年要完成各位你知道雪水12公里挖了15年了"},{"start":308.564,"end":325.029,"text":"在這個國六東延裡面啊最困難的就是能高山啊能高山碎到幾公里?好像18公里喔17公里多比雪碎還要長雪碎挖15年喔能高山要挖幾年?"},{"start":327.234,"end":353.479,"text":"跟委員報告這個還要再評估還要再評估嗎?也效益很長而且龍高山那個地質很脆弱的啦什麼岩盤啦、湧泉啦等等啦雪碎啊死了13個人啦我在龍高山這種難度啦我看會更危險啦對不對那同時啊你為了要東延到花蓮啦你那個橋墩要架很高啦因為他才可以衝過高山嘛"},{"start":354.431,"end":380.56,"text":"我看你的計劃裡面估算喔哇這個這非常可怕啦台灣第二高的啦就附近啦國信啦南投國信鄉的那個橋墩啦70公尺啦就橋墩高有23層樓啦你現在國六如果東延喔到霧社啦就超將近1150公尺啦比國信還要高很多啦所以呢橋墩恐怕一定會破100公尺啦100公尺30幾層樓高的橋墩欸"},{"start":385.305,"end":413.552,"text":"然後你要再估算他能不能抵擋天災強震啊而且他也不是直接就裝那麼高你要慢慢慢慢慢慢讓車子滑坡上去啊所以這個工程啊有相當高的一個困難度啦那以前我看這個計劃裡面吳君濟委員啊他說拿歐洲尤其像瑞士的鐵路隧道來做比較啦那瑞士的上面都古老上面的研板他那個非常穩定啊"},{"start":414.363,"end":436.154,"text":"台灣不一樣喔台灣的中央山脈啊是新生的山脈尤其像龍高山這種喔中央山脈地址那是片岩一片一片那個很脆弱那歪下去很容易整個崩塌下來所以困難度不知道是絕對是遠高於像類似隧道這種等等啦"},{"start":436.997,"end":464.839,"text":"因為你要挖隧道你要把那個岩盤破壞掉因為它整個都石頭嘛你要把它拗開嘛雪碎的岩盤啦岩覆啦就岩、岩、岩、那個岩盤的覆蓋高度大概750公尺國六這個都超過1000公尺各位可以想一想當時挖雪碎喔50幾噸拗到剪痛口啦那現在啊限定國六到花蓮要10年完成那怎麼可能啊"},{"start":466.226,"end":488.885,"text":"而且你還經過了丹大野生動物保護區、能丹野鳥棲息地。這光是環評,環評又做到合理合約了。那怎麼可能?怎麼可能限期完成?而且啊是破造的工程。蓋下去如果蓋到一半蓋不起來。蓋下去以後安全性的考量。這超級成功法案。也這樣亂闖啦。"},{"start":493.584,"end":513.332,"text":"對不對?現在花東公路最重要的應該趕快去做蘇花安啦。蘇花改做好了嘛。趕快去做蘇花安趕快把它做好啦。這是花蓮很回家安全的路啦。對不對?這個已經在做要趕快去做。包括過地方的溝通啦。蘇花安供一個高價居民就反對啦。"},{"start":514.653,"end":541.134,"text":"反對沒辦法他稍微一修改就經過國家公園你看環評就卡那裡更何況整個國道六這個環評恐怕更複雜所以我是覺得政策一定要考量現實面還有它的可執行度否則都弄不好了好不好提起點來跟大家做參考交換意見謝謝部長、謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"151268","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151268","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016277be418ef4e5ffbe70e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c944e85fd41815b697d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"10:52:58 - 10:58:59","影片長度":"00:06:01","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":361,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:58:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:52:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":113,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（10時53分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["王部長國材：游委員好。"],["游委員顥：部長好。部長，辛苦！在這裡延續剛才的質詢及發言，本席同樣地今天也是第3次，2次在交通，1次在經濟，針對這個特別條例表示支持，而且認為這是必需、必要的。許多的重大建設在過去這8年停滯而沒有辦法進行，但我認為國內的重大建設不能這樣一直延宕、delay。所謂的特別條例一定是重大的建設或事件才會有，所以「嚴重特殊傳染性肺炎防治及紓困振興特別條例」過去在通過的時候，不管是藍綠都有見證。同樣地，交通委員會的立委對於國內的交通發展及建設絕對是不分藍綠，我相信中臺灣的生活圈，包括中彰投，如果能夠藉由國道六號東延到花蓮，不僅對花蓮有幫助、對南投有幫助，甚至對整個中彰投在交通發展或觀光發展等等絕對都有幫助。","針對這次的特別條例，本席同樣就如上次在交通、後面在經濟的發言一樣，今天在交通委員會要再次表達，國道六號東延特別條例是重要且必需。如同上次所講的，過去有十大建設創造了臺灣經濟發展的奇蹟，現在也需要許多有亮點的交通建設，才能夠讓小小的臺灣在許多的交通面向上更能四通八達，而且所帶來的經濟乘數及效益絕對對我們整個經濟發展更有幫助，不管是環島鐵路或花東快，甚至跟本席的選區南投息息相關的國道六號東延，我相信如果在特別條例賦予法源通過之後，將來能夠儘快實施，這樣的建設不僅對南投及花蓮是好的，對於整個國家的經濟發展絕對是大有助益。","國道六號東延過去從79年就已經規劃，剛才部長一開始在說明的時候也有提到是持正面的態度。其實有時候南投的鄉親都會提到，以前重北輕南，過去8年的前瞻計畫是重南輕北，但中部及東部卻是爹不疼、娘不愛，好不容易有國道東延，可以讓南投及花蓮有一個大型的交通建設，結果現在還是受到從中阻礙。南投部分過去一開始貫通是在臺灣鎮總兵吳光亮打通八通關古道，後面開始有公路，這是過去重大的交通建設。剛才有提到許多隧道的部分，現在的技術統統已經可以超越，也可以完成這樣的交通建設，其實在國外比這個技術更難的也都有。","本席在這裡要就教部長，民進黨過去曾經提到花東發展條例，也是特別條例、特別基金、特別預算，今天對於國道六號東延特別條例，交通部除了正面態度之外，可以在多少的時間之內儘可能地針對六號東延提出具體的時程表及計畫表？請向大家說明。"],["王部長國材：跟游委員報告，這個叫做個案計畫，比如委員在談捷運延伸到南投，這叫個案計畫。過去比較沒有針對個案計畫來提，因為個案計畫必須經過中長程計畫的審議程序來進行，包括可行性、綜合規劃、環評等等。我們認為這次台8線顯現出脆弱的一面，我剛才說持正面態度，我們現在就在進行當中了，的確中部地區要有一條比台8線更安全的路，這是我這次的感覺。所以我想我們持正面態度，而我們現在正在做路廊的調查及地質的調查，路廊探勘就是開始找路了……"],["游委員顥：預計多久之內這個調查報告會出來？"],["王部長國材：115年就出來了，比如已經找到路廊、地質也OK，那就是進入後面可行性的一些程序。事實上最重要的一點是，這種個案計畫類似的太多了，很多都在做，如果這個破例的話，就變成等於推翻過去這麼嚴謹的審查程序，每個都經過這個程序過來的，而且經過這個程序以後，會讓這個公路是更可行，所以我們大概是這樣的想法。"],["游委員顥：沒關係，等一下還會繼續審查條文。第一，我希望正面的態度就是積極的作為；再來，南投縣政府有提到南豐村到親愛村的高架道路可以成為六號的先期交通建設，也希望能夠列入紀錄，儘快做評估。謝謝。"],["王部長國材：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝游顥委員的發言。","下一位請臺南的大老林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃仁","許智傑","陳培瑜","沈伯洋"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1133001_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.396593750000001,"end":12.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.766593750000002,"end":20.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.48346875,"end":160.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.60909375,"end":134.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.86659375000002,"end":251.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.23659375000003,"end":250.64159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.23221875000002,"end":285.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.23096875000005,"end":293.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.74034375,"end":294.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.05659375000005,"end":305.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.30409375,"end":306.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.83534375,"end":317.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.14659375,"end":314.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.51284375,"end":326.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.16971875,"end":328.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.62096875000003,"end":338.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.05909375000005,"end":333.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.64471875000004,"end":360.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.46221875000003,"end":345.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.12221875,"end":362.30346875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.465,"end":10.126,"text":"謝謝總,謝謝趙偉,有請部長部長請"},{"start":19.297,"end":32.065,"text":"議長好部長辛苦那在這裡也延續了剛才質詢跟發言的情況那本期同樣的今天也是第三次兩次在交通一次在經濟還針對這特別條例啊"},{"start":34.446,"end":51.541,"text":"那表示支持跟而且也是必須必要那因為如果說許多的重大建設那因為過去包括這8年的一些停滯那而沒有辦法進行我想說我們國內的重大建設也不能這樣子一直的延宕跟delay"},{"start":52.462,"end":75.437,"text":"相信這個所謂的特別條例一定是重大的建設或事件才會有所以包括這個嚴重特殊傳染肺炎防治及紓困振興特別條例過去在通過的時候大家其實不管是這時候藍綠都有見證那同樣的交通委員會的立委一定對於國內的交通發展跟建設絕對是不分藍綠"},{"start":76.798,"end":105.003,"text":"那我相信在這個中台灣的生活圈包括中張頭如果能夠藉由國道六號東延還能夠到花蓮的話我相信這個不僅是對花蓮有幫助對南投有幫助甚至對整個中張頭在交通發展或觀光發展等等絕對都有幫助所以說在這次的特別條例那我在想本席同樣的是就如上次在交通後面在經濟也希望說今天在交通委員會再次表達"},{"start":106.083,"end":126.095,"text":"這個特別條例、國道六號東延那個其實是重要且必須就如上次所講的過去有十大建設那這十大建設創造了我們台灣經濟發展的奇跡那現在也需要許多亮點的交通建設才能夠讓我們小小的台灣在許多的交通的面向上更能四通八達"},{"start":126.835,"end":127.496,"text":" ﹝國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案﹞"},{"start":147.958,"end":175.72,"text":"那在將來能夠盡快來去做實施我覺得這樣子的建設不僅是對南投跟花蓮是好對於整個國家的經濟發展絕對是大有助益那所以說在過去從79年就已經規劃那我相信剛才部長一開始在說明的時候也有提到說支持正面的態度那其實在有時候啊其實南投的鄉親大家都會提啊"},{"start":176.22,"end":195.247,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":195.627,"end":223.192,"text":"一開始有這個貫通的話是在這個台灣鎮總兵吳光亮那時候打通八通關古道那後面開始有公路的實施那過去的一個重要的交通建設而現在剛才我們有提到的許多隧道的部分其實現在的技術上其實通通是已經可以來超越那也可以來完成這樣子的一個交通建設其實在國外比這個技術更難的其實也是都有"},{"start":223.672,"end":251.922,"text":"所以說本席還是在這裡就是要就教部長在其實民進黨過去也曾經提到花東發展條例也是特別條例特別進行特別預算那在今天的國道六號東延那交通部除了正面態度之外那可以在多少的時間之內那盡可能的來針對六號東延來提出一些具體的時程表跟計畫表跟大家說明等有人報告齁"},{"start":252.722,"end":278.193,"text":"因為這一個叫做個案計劃就像委員在談比如說捷運衛生在南投這叫個案計劃那過去是比較沒有針對個案計劃來提因為個案計劃它必須經過我們中長期計劃的審議程序來進行就是說包括這個可行性綜合規劃、環評等等的那我們是認為這樣這次台八縣的確它顯現出它脆弱一面"},{"start":279.173,"end":299.981,"text":" 那我剛才說持正面態度,我們現在就要進行當中了。的確中部地區要有沒有一條這個比台八線更安全的路。我想這部分是我這一次感覺。所以我想說我們持正面但是如果不經過評估,我們現在正在做路廊的調查還有這個地質的調查。"},{"start":302.122,"end":324.616,"text":"路廊調查探探路廊探探就是開始找路廊預期多久之內這個調查報告會出來一五年就就出來了比如說已經找到路廊地質OK那就是進入後面的可行性的一些程序那我是希望事實上最重要一點是說這種個案計畫類似的太多了很多都在做啊我們如果說這個破例的話就是變成過去這麼嚴謹的審查程序會會這個就就"},{"start":329.138,"end":344.466,"text":"這過去就等於說推翻過去的這種程序每個都經過這個程序過來的而且經過這個程序以後是讓這個公路是更可行所以我們大概是這樣的想法沒關係因為等一下還會審查條文還會繼續所以說第一的話是希望說正面的態度就是積極的作為"},{"start":345.866,"end":359.592,"text":"再來的話南東縣政府有提到南豐村到青外村的高架道路可以成為六號的先期的一個交通建設的部分他也希望能夠列入紀錄還能夠盡快來做一個評估謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151267","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151267","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627cb4988d62b2334820e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c9420b7ea364581afcb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"10:43:39 - 10:52:37","影片長度":"00:08:58","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":538,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:52:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:43:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":86,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時43分）謝謝主席，請王部長。"],["主席：王部長請。"],["王部長國材：蔡委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：部長早。本席這個會期已經三次提出這個問題，兩次在交通，一次在經濟，針對這個特別條例這是第三次了，說實在話，本席講得都已經有一點老生常談了，這個會期就講了三次。本席要再一次強調，每一個委員為自己的選區爭取權益，每一個委員為國家重大建設發展來爭取，我都覺得很合理，但是本席要再一次強調，本席絕對反對用特別條例！如果此例一開，第一個破壞了憲法權力分立的原則，立法委員只要誰占多數，立法委員相互支持，大家都來提特別條例嘛！我跟雪生召委已經做很多年的同事了，他長期為離島在拼命，為他的馬祖在拼命，他也很清楚地知道，你看他今天只給我五分鐘，他也很清楚地知道這個題目沒什麼好講的，所以他只給我五分鐘，因為他知道我上來又要批評這件事情。相信資深委員都知道，這件事情如果這樣搞可行，他早就已經針對馬祖至少提兩百個特別條例了，對不對？例如他可以提馬祖臺灣大橋特別條例，馬祖霧一來就不能動，不是他不能來開會，而是整個馬祖的鄉親很不方便啦，那要不要搞一個特別條例，馬祖直接蓋一個大橋直通臺灣，對不對？他也知道，他心中也覺得如果可行、有預算、環評都過了，可行性評估也過，政府也有錢，當然他會很支持，我也很支持，雖然我不住馬祖，他也約過我很多次，雖然我都沒有去馬祖，可是我也會支持，為什麼？這個條件一切都符合，你看他為什麼那麼多年很認真在立法院質詢？我在當副院長的時候，他每次上臺總質詢，他都很認真把馬祖鄉親的需求讓行政部門知道，因為這是權力分立，現場那麼多的委員，難道每一個選區沒有需要的嗎？上一次我就跟你講過，如果特別條例這種作法是可行的，我也講過大臺中發展特別條例需要1兆，請你幫我準備好，我就要提這個，不可行嘛！不能這樣搞嘛！權力分立，憲法給予立法院什麼職權？我們叫五權分立，大家不滿意，改為三權我都沒意見，那個都是大家可以討論的，在民主社會、民主政治裡面都可以討論，但現行五權分立的架構裡面，立法院負責什麼、行政院負責什麼，大家清清楚楚，這樣國家才有辦法運作嘛！","回到國道六號的延伸，本席過去也曾經講過，這個是國家重大建設，這條如果通的話，那臺中到花蓮很近嘛，所以交通部現在也在進行，你們叫做地表地質的調查，對不對？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：那你為什麼要做地表地質的調查？"],["王部長國材：那個地方在中央山脈的確碰到很多岩爆，還有地質斷層的一些……"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有錯，所以它是很務實、科學的，我們要面對很多環團對於環境的質疑，蓋了這一條路，對臺灣原生的植物、動物，對臺灣的環境有沒有產生什麼樣的衝擊？我們必須把對環境的衝擊跟影響做一個很完整的評估，我們不應該再相信人定勝天，一個地震，你看我們今天都還要為地震進行相關討論，臺灣這個多地震的島嶼，我們不斷的在祈福，不斷的在努力，設法讓災害降至最低。沒辦法，我們克服不了天，它要讓我們地震就地震，但我們提供怎麼樣的預警系統，我們提供怎麼樣的防震法規條文，讓房子蓋得更堅固，所以我們只能在上天憐憫的情況底下，我們盡其人類的可能來做。","一樣的道理，當我們面對國家重大建設，我們第一個要想到我們要挑戰天要挑戰什麼？所以針對國道六號，我不會在一開始就毫無理性的說贊成或反對，但我遵照行政機關這麼多年下來的一套評估程序，這個評估的程序就是類似像這個事情，我們必須從地質的調查開始，另外還有很多，包括原住民的問題、斷層的問題，以後這一條會不會經過多少地震斷層帶的問題，詳細把它研究好之後，如果覺得這是可以克服的，我們就進入下一個階段叫做可行性評估，接著可行性評估如果又過關了，可行性評估當然包括環評，如果這些都過關了，我們才有細部設計、才有綜合規劃，這個就是一個流程，這個就是行政流程，這個就是評估任何一個重大建設理性務實的角度，不理盲、不衝撞，不因為政治口水淹沒了我們的專業，這個也是未來這個建設能夠成功，要說服民眾、說服跟我們意見不同的人，我們有一個基本的科學理性的根據，這個就是這一套嘛！","我已經講了第三次，今天只剩下五分鐘，但我還是必須再一次在這裡大聲的呼籲，本席對於每一個委員要提案去爭取建設，我都沒意見，但是用特別條例的方式，如果此例一開，我跟大家保證，每一個人都有幾百個特別條例要提。我常常跟你們講，我對人行道、人孔蓋都不滿嘛，我有人孔蓋發展特別條例，我有水溝興建特別條例，一大堆，我都準備好了，如果這個可行、這樣惡搞可行的話。","所以本席還是再三呼籲，立法院立法委員大家很努力要為地方發展講話，本席都覺得很棒、很肯定，但是我們立法委員不可以帶頭毀憲亂政，用這種明顯違反權力分立原則的方式，我們立法院已經11屆了，不是第1屆。","最後，因為時間已經到了，我只提醒一點，對於震後，現在我們在談應變機制，事實上已經開始應變了，但是本席比較關心的是震後花蓮觀光產業的振興。大家知道，這兩年已經先天不良，從疫情結束之後，發生了國人旅遊型態的改變、缺工的問題、觀光客結構的調整，我們從過去的陸客要調整到國際觀光客，這些都讓這兩年的觀光產業面臨很大的危機，很辛苦。花蓮靠觀光產業，又面臨這麼嚴重的地震，因為時間的關係，我沒有辦法花時間跟你認真討論，但本席希望對於花蓮震後觀光的振興，交通部觀光署一定要提出計畫。"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：只要你們有想法，本席再就教你們。"],["王部長國材：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：但是我覺得要積極面對，特別像花東的觀光產業其實是很需要的，我們一起來努力。"],["王部長國材：好。"],["蔡委員其昌：譬如我也再請職棒聯盟評估，看看可不可以透過職棒比賽帶動西部的觀光客、球迷過去那邊，讓他們在那邊住一晚、兩晚，帶動地方的消費，這也是一個方法。聯盟是民間，職籃也可以，但是政府應該有一個計畫，我們民間單位都很願意配合觀光署，譬如職棒聯盟也來配合觀光署，看你們有什麼樣的政策，大家一起來做，把人帶進去，好不好？"],["王部長國材：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：好，謝謝。"],["王部長國材：謝謝蔡副院長。"],["主席：謝謝蔡副院長對馬祖的支持，希望你第4次發言繼續幫我們發聲，謝謝。"],["蔡委員其昌：不要再吵這個了。"],["主席：剛才你講馬祖的時間我都幫你扣掉了。"],["蔡委員其昌：我知道，我有發現。"],["主席：下一位請游顥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃仁","許智傑","陳培瑜","沈伯洋"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1133001_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.464718750000001,"end":9.008468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.649093750000002,"end":13.665968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.665968750000001,"end":13.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.68284375,"end":13.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.73346875,"end":17.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.47971875,"end":20.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.669093750000002,"end":21.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.934718750000002,"end":22.238468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.72784375,"end":24.044093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.31409375,"end":25.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.49534375,"end":27.300968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.043468750000002,"end":33.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.207843750000002,"end":29.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.56159375,"end":33.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.84846875,"end":35.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.10971875,"end":37.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.69159375,"end":42.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.079093750000006,"end":46.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.48346875,"end":48.765968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.77846875,"end":52.579718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.27159375,"end":55.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.70159375,"end":57.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.38909375,"end":60.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.20284375000001,"end":63.143468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.93659375000001,"end":67.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.56034375,"end":72.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.77909375,"end":74.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.02346875,"end":76.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.82471875,"end":82.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.59159375,"end":92.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.00909375,"end":86.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.29909375000001,"end":97.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.09159375,"end":101.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.47909375,"end":103.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.96409375,"end":105.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.34784375000001,"end":117.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.79721875000001,"end":123.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.16784375,"end":123.25221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.25221875000001,"end":130.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.79534375,"end":133.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.49534375000002,"end":135.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.72284375,"end":137.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.15284375000002,"end":142.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.96221875,"end":152.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.96909375,"end":154.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.58909375000002,"end":163.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.26284375,"end":166.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.97096875,"end":169.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.70471875,"end":172.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.74221875,"end":184.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.14971875,"end":191.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.60846875000001,"end":194.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.81909375,"end":196.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.01284375,"end":197.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.53159375,"end":200.01659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.40471875,"end":202.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.76721875,"end":205.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.76659375000003,"end":210.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.74909375000001,"end":217.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.89971875,"end":226.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.03784375,"end":226.99971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.99971875000003,"end":227.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.03346875000003,"end":229.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.25659375,"end":233.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.35721875000002,"end":242.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.69346875000002,"end":247.70534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.27909375000002,"end":250.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.65409375000002,"end":259.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.88909375000003,"end":266.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.65596875,"end":271.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.17409375,"end":274.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.46909375,"end":277.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.31659375000004,"end":284.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.81346875,"end":284.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.83034375,"end":291.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.74471875,"end":296.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.35159375,"end":300.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.45221875000004,"end":302.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.56159375000004,"end":319.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.82909375,"end":322.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.66409375,"end":328.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.60409375,"end":328.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.89096875,"end":331.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.77221875000004,"end":336.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.05846875000003,"end":337.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.98659375,"end":338.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.08346875,"end":341.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.27284375000005,"end":350.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.25034375,"end":352.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.97159375,"end":354.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.50284375,"end":356.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.76409375000003,"end":357.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.96659375,"end":358.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.03409375,"end":358.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.11846875000003,"end":361.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.66221875,"end":365.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.81346875,"end":368.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.22659375,"end":369.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.91409375,"end":371.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.80409375000005,"end":374.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.48284375000003,"end":379.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.34721875,"end":381.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.59159375,"end":383.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.86534375,"end":386.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.21096875,"end":391.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.56034375,"end":394.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.99034375,"end":399.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.46221875000003,"end":400.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.25096875,"end":401.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.78659375,"end":416.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.26534375,"end":422.39534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.57659375000003,"end":424.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.96034375000005,"end":431.38971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.82846875,"end":436.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.00909375000003,"end":437.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.58284375000005,"end":454.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.72784375000003,"end":461.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.74784375,"end":464.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.98784375,"end":467.50221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.58221875000004,"end":473.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.16784375000003,"end":474.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.43784375,"end":475.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.49659375000005,"end":478.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.56784375,"end":483.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.58409375,"end":483.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.87096875000003,"end":483.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.97221875,"end":484.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.02284375000005,"end":487.36409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.46534375000005,"end":498.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.02471875000003,"end":500.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.98221875,"end":504.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.11659375000005,"end":507.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.52971875000003,"end":511.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.66471875,"end":508.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.90034375000005,"end":519.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":515.4609687500001,"end":516.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.3803437500001,"end":518.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.00034375,"end":522.5990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.5990937500001,"end":523.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.7509687500001,"end":534.4453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.7322187500001,"end":534.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.76596875,"end":534.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.8840937500001,"end":536.6728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.8459687500001,"end":538.2422187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.412,"end":25.02,"text":"謝謝主席請王部長王部長請部長早部長我想本席這個會期就已經三次三次兩次在交通一次在經濟針對這個特別條例"},{"start":28.226,"end":48.736,"text":"這是第三次啦說實在話本席講的都已經有一點這個老生常談這個會期就講了三次本席要再一次強調每一個委員為自己的選區爭取權益每一個委員為國家重大建設發展來爭取我都覺得很合理"},{"start":49.827,"end":76.213,"text":"但是本席要再一次強調本席絕對反對用特別條例此例如果一開第一個破壞了憲法權力分立的原則立法委員只要誰佔多數立法委員相互支持大家都來提特別條例我跟雪生昭偉已經做很多年的同事了他長期為離島在拼命為他的馬祖在拼命"},{"start":77.861,"end":102.966,"text":"他也很清楚地知道他今天只給我5分鐘嘛他也很清楚地知道這個題目沒什麼好講了啦所以他只給我5分鐘嘛因為他知道我上來又要批評這件事情因為資深委員就知道這件事情如果這樣搞可行他早就已經提在馬祖至少提200個特別條例了啦對不對馬祖台灣啊馬祖台灣大橋特別條例他不用再"},{"start":104.545,"end":132.576,"text":"媽祖一誤來就不能動不是他不能來開會是整個媽祖的鄉親很不方便那搞不搞一個特別條例媽祖直接蓋一個大橋直通台灣對不對他也知道他心中也覺得如果可行有預算還評都過了可行性評估也過政府也有錢當然他也很支持我也很支持雖然我不住媽祖他也約過很多次我都沒有去媽祖"},{"start":133.564,"end":152.177,"text":"可是我也會支持為什麼這個條件一切都符合所以他你看他為什麼那麼多年很認真在立法院質詢我在當副院長的時候他每次上台總質詢他都很認真把馬祖鄉親的需求讓行政部門知道因為這是權力分立啦"},{"start":153.175,"end":172.686,"text":"這是權力分立啦現場那麼多的委員難道每一個選區沒有需要的嗎?上一次我這邊也講過嘛如果特別條例這種做法是可行的我也講過啊大台中發展特別條例一照啦請你幫我準備好我就要提這個不可行嘛不能這樣搞嘛"},{"start":173.806,"end":191.608,"text":"全力分立憲法給予立法院什麽職權我們叫五權分立大家不滿意改三權我都沒意見那個都是大家可以討論在民主社會民主政治裡面都可以討論但現行的架構五權分立的架構裡面立法院負責什麽行政院負責什麽大家清清楚楚"},{"start":192.819,"end":217.627,"text":"國家這樣才有辦法運作嘛所以回到國道六號的延伸本席過去也曾經講過嘛這個是國家重大建設這一條如果通的話那台中到花蓮很近嘛所以交通部現在也在進行你們叫做地質、地表地質的調查對不對那你為什麼要做地表地質的調查"},{"start":218.985,"end":232.45,"text":"表示那個地方在狀況上面的確碰到很多這個原爆啦還有一些這個地質斷層的沒有錯所以他是很務實科學我們要面對很多還團對於環境的質疑"},{"start":236.218,"end":250.645,"text":"對台灣的這些原生的植物動物對台灣的環境有沒有產生什麼樣的衝擊我們必須把對環境的衝擊跟影響做一個很完整的評估我們不應該再相信人定勝天嘛"},{"start":251.707,"end":270.905,"text":"一個地震你看我們今天都還要為地震臺灣這個多地震的島嶼我們不斷的在祈福不斷的在努力怎麼讓災害沒辦法我們克服不了天他要讓我們地震就地震但我們提供怎麼樣的預警系統我們提供怎麼樣的防震的法規條文來防止蓋的更堅固"},{"start":272.253,"end":291.164,"text":"所以我們只能在上天啊憐憫的情況底下我們盡其人類的可能來做所以一樣的道理當我們面對國家重大建設我們第一個要想到我們要挑戰天要挑戰什麼所以國道六號我不會說我一開始就說毫無理性的我就贊成或反對但我遵照"},{"start":292.813,"end":300.704,"text":"我們行政機關這麼多年下來我們有一套評估的程序這個評估的程序就是類似像這個事情我們必須從地質的調查"},{"start":303.612,"end":331.661,"text":"很多包括原住民的等等問題斷層的問題以後這一條會不會面對有經過多少地震斷層帶的問題詳細把它研究好之後如果覺得這個是可以克服我們就進入下一個階段叫做可行性評估然後接著可行性評估如果又過關了可行性評估當然包括環評嘛都過關了我們才有細部設計才有綜合規劃嘛這個就是一個流程這個就是行政流程"},{"start":333.033,"end":356.522,"text":"這個就是任何評估一個重大建設理性務實的角度不禮盲、不沖狀、不因為政治口水淹沒了我們這個專業這個也是未來我們這個建設能夠成功要說服民眾說服跟我們意見不同的人我們有一個基本的科學理性的根據這個就是這一套嘛所以我已經講了第三次今天只剩下五分鐘"},{"start":358.188,"end":383.297,"text":"但是我還是必須要再一次在這裡大聲的呼籲本期對於每一個委員要提案去爭取建設我都沒意見但是用特別條例的方式如果此例一開我跟大家保證每一個人都有幾百個特別條例要提我常常跟你們講我對我們那個人行道、人孔蓋我都不滿我有人孔蓋發展特別條例"},{"start":384.909,"end":401.705,"text":"我有水溝興建特別條例我都一大堆我準備好了嘛如果這個可行這樣二稿可行的話所以本席還是再三呼籲啦立法院立法委員大家很努力要為地方發展來講話本席都覺得很棒很肯定"},{"start":402.83,"end":422.097,"text":"但是我們不可以立法委員帶頭把違憲亂政把這種明顯就違反權力分立的原則這種方式如果可以搞過去我們立法院已經11屆了立法院不是第一屆啦所以本席還是再一次這樣最後我只提醒一點因為時間已經到了我只提醒一點"},{"start":423.612,"end":445.739,"text":"對於震後就是現在我們在談這個所謂應變機制這個因為事實上已經開始應變但是本期比較關心的是震後花蓮觀光產業的振興因為大家知道先天這兩年已經先天不亮從疫情結束之後國人旅遊型態的改變缺工的問題結構的這種調整"},{"start":448.36,"end":449.08,"text":"〈花蓮地震公路〉"},{"start":476.493,"end":499.002,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":499.122,"end":511.097,"text":"指放聯盟來評估嘛我們指放可以帶動可不可以透過指放的比賽然後帶動西部的觀光客的球迷就過去那邊然後可以讓他住就住"},{"start":511.92,"end":511.98,"text":"謝謝蔡委員長"}]}},{"id":"151266","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151266","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016270999ca0650ae5e990e5cada98db34c32c5dab72e655c1c9426b757c7aa9b9ad15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"10:31:52 - 10:43:26","影片長度":"00:11:34","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":694,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:43:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:31:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":60,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（10時31分）謝謝陳雪生召委，請王國材部長、趙興華局長，還有氣象署程署長。"],["主席：請王部長、趙局長、氣象署署長"],["王部長國材：李召委早。"],["李委員昆澤：部長好，對於任何地方重要的交通建設，其實交通委員會長期以來都是不分黨派也沒有意識形態給予全力的支持，我們看馬祖的建設就好，陳雪生召委也非常認真、實在的爭取，也為馬祖爭取了很多重要的交通建設。對於國道六號延伸花蓮這樣一個特別條例，其實我們對於任何縣市尤其是花蓮一條安全的道路，當然都會全力的支持，但是交通建設，大家都很清楚，是不能用法律來匡定的，它必須透過嚴謹的程序，相關的不管是地質調查、可行性研究還有環境的綜合規劃，然後是環境影響評估、環差的評估、財務的評估，都是必須的。剛才也提到這次花蓮的地震，蘇花改發揮了應有的安全功能，目前是還沒有蘇花安，因為蘇花安現在還在做環境影響評估，不是嗎？來，說明一下。"],["王部長國材：跟委員報告，蘇花安現在在做環評、綜規。"],["李委員昆澤：所以就是只有蘇花改，其實本來就是蘇花高速公路，但因為環境評估沒有通過，我們為了讓花蓮有安全的道路，所以再改為蘇花改，接著還有蘇花安。我們對於交通建設都會給予全力的支持。剛才也提到這一條道路從埔里到花蓮，過去從79年開始，不管是一般的道路或是國道相關的延伸，其實已經經過藍綠的執政，經過9次相關的評估、分析等等，所以還是必須要有一套嚴謹的程序，尤其是經過中央山脈，它有斷層的問題、有岩爆的問題、有地熱的問題、有湧泉的問題，所以地質調查非常重要，因為任何交通建設一定要以安全為前提，要以永續為前提，要以共生為前提，不是嗎？安全的道路就是這樣來的啊！我們也提到這一次國六東延的條例，說要在10年內完成，可行嗎？雪山隧道不過13公里，挖了15年才完成，臺北的鐵路地下化23公里，也經過了28年才完成，那國道六號全長大概90公里，有70公里是隧道，最長的隧道照目前的規劃大概超過17公里，如果真的要施工，它是全世界第三長的隧道，10年內能完成嗎？部長、局長，你們都是交通的專家，如果這個條例通過，10年內能完成嗎？說明一下。"],["王部長國材：非常困難啦，我跟委員再報告，國道六號東延花蓮事實上過去是已經打死了，不做了，後來我們覺得必須往前走，所以我們現在在做一件事，就是剛剛談到的地質調查，還有路廊的踏勘，路廊怎麼樣避過這些環境敏感或地質敏感的地帶，現在這個已經按照我們中長程個案計畫在進行當中，如果在踏勘以後找到路廊，然後評估可行，我們就進入可行性評估然後綜合規劃、環評等等程序。的確剛才委員所提的非常重要，就是過去我們全國的各個個案計畫都經過詳細的評估，如果沒有詳細的評估就定案，未來面臨很多課題而沒辦法克服的時候，這個條例就沒辦法執行。國道六號東延花蓮已經在進行當中了，就看我們執行的結果，我想我們可以加速。"],["李委員昆澤：部長，我們都支持對於地方發展有重要提升的重大交通建設，交通委員會都是不分黨派、不分藍綠，也沒有意識形態全力的支持。我想陳雪生召委對於交通委員會長久的這樣一個共識，覺得是一個很重要的方向，那對於重要的交通建設，當然現在要立法來推動，或者是大家對於權力分立的原則，認為立委的權力應該要更大，要凌駕行政、司法，這都另當別論，但是千萬別忘了交通建設要以安全、永續、共生為最重要的前提，尤其是中央山脈，這一次0403花蓮大地震造成整個生態的衝擊，我們要讓整個交通建設更符合安全、永續這樣一個前提，希望各位交通委員會的委員要深切地思考。","另外，我們現在來討論地震的問題，程署長，我們看到2024年4月份，4月到目前還沒有過完，總共已經發生了940次的地震，顯著的有感地震有191個，最大的有感地震，它的半徑如果超過300公里以上，就是顯著的有感地震；另外小區域的地震有749個，最大的有感半徑從100公里到200公里就是小區域的地震。對照2023年4月，2024年4月的地震其實增加了10倍，2023年災防的國家級警報發布了13次，2024年到今天已經發布了26次，是不是請署長說明一下？"],["程署長家平：是，國家級警報的發布有一定的標準，只要在規模和震度達到一個程度的時候，我們就會發布，的確在花蓮的地震之後有很多的餘震，那所產生的……"],["李委員昆澤：署長，這個國家級警報是2012年我推動的，當時還沒有細胞廣播系統，也沒有國家級警報，我要求當時的毛治國部長必須要全力的建置這些相關機制，也要求NCC要全力配合，但是這個國家級警報到目前為止誤報的情形還是時有發生，這個機制應該要進行修正。我們看到從2021年到現在為止，發生了7次重大誤報事件，不管是2021年，宜蘭同一個區域的同一個地震發布了14次的地震，或者是震度2級它也發布這樣的告警，又或者是臺東2級地震，卻在臺南發布國家級的警報。這一次大家印象最深刻的就是4月3號有七個縣市應該要發布卻沒有發布，當然4月3號7.2級的這個地震，因為低估為6.8級的強震，所以這七個縣市沒有發布。我有一個具體的想法，地震預警應該要發布而沒有發布，現在發布的標準是25gal對不對？請署長說明一下。"],["程署長家平：4級地震的震度25gal。"],["李委員昆澤：3級地震的能量大概是8至25gal，是不是這樣？"],["程署長家平：是。"],["李委員昆澤：好，當規模達到22.5gal的時候，其實就會感受到明顯的晃動，對不對？"],["程署長家平：是。"],["李委員昆澤：那我們會不會去修正這個發布值，避免誤報也避免漏報的情況？針對這個發布值，我們有沒有找學者專家再次開會來討論這個標準值應該是要多少？請署長說明一下。"],["程署長家平：是，這個的確有考量，我們也在檢討。相關的這些作為，我們其實已經邀請了學者專家，在下個禮拜就會有學者專家的討論會，針對後續相關的改善作為去做討論。"],["李委員昆澤：另外就是規模6.5以上的地震，震度會比較強，相關的餘震一定也會比較多，而且震的時間也比較久，我們是不是請專家學者大家來研究一下，當發生規模6.5以上的地震時，震度3級以上，是否這些區域也發布告警？這個要用很嚴謹的態度來思考，請署長簡單說明一下。"],["程署長家平：是，這個在過去我們的討論裡面的確有討論到，針對這個部分，因為發布會牽涉到防災單位相關的作為，其實過去我們有邀請災防辦還有地方政府的災防機關一起討論，我想經過這一次的事件之後，對這件事情會有一個比較明確的結論。"],["李委員昆澤：必須以更嚴謹的態度來修正相關的這些標準值，讓民眾能夠確實得到預警的效果，十二年來也逐漸建立了國家級警報大家對於它的基本信任，相關誤報、漏報的狀況必須儘速做一個調整，氣象署必須全力督促相關作業。"],["程署長家平：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤總召。"],["李委員昆澤：召委啦！不要這樣啦！"],["主席：好，下一位請蔡其昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":342,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-7","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","傅崐萁","蔡其昌","游顥","林俊憲","何欣純","陳素月","林國成","魯明哲","林沛祥","黃健豪","徐富癸","廖先翔","王世堅","許宇甄","麥玉珍","邱若華","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","洪孟楷","林憶君","黃仁","許智傑","陳培瑜","沈伯洋"],"page_start":291,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並\n備質詢；二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案","agenda_id":"1133001_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.97596875,"end":7.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.262218750000001,"end":7.185968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.09721875,"end":9.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.556593750000001,"end":11.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.89409375,"end":12.974093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.974093750000002,"end":12.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.99096875,"end":13.058468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.058468750000003,"end":13.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.15534375,"end":14.172218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.172218750000003,"end":14.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.84721875,"end":15.117218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.117218750000003,"end":15.134093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.134093750000002,"end":15.302843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.37034375,"end":16.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.95659375,"end":38.556593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.45096875,"end":45.947843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.454093750000006,"end":57.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.945968750000006,"end":66.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.07096875,"end":69.28596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.72471875000001,"end":77.94284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.09471875,"end":80.47409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.23346875,"end":82.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.29221875,"end":85.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.70534375000001,"end":96.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.03284375000001,"end":105.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.52221875000001,"end":97.09596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.03596875000001,"end":105.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.97221875000001,"end":117.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.40909375000001,"end":120.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.14721875000001,"end":120.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.38346875,"end":129.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.85034375,"end":131.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.06096875,"end":137.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.59596875,"end":141.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.73034375,"end":144.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.49784375000002,"end":152.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.54721875,"end":152.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.98596875,"end":153.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.03659375,"end":160.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.08596875,"end":161.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.33471875,"end":169.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.02534375000002,"end":173.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.86034375,"end":175.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.49721875,"end":181.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.85471875000002,"end":184.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.30159375000002,"end":187.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.79909375000003,"end":189.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.16159375,"end":191.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.69284375,"end":194.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.34221875,"end":196.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.51909375000002,"end":198.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.12221875,"end":200.47221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.55221875,"end":202.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.49284375000002,"end":204.23534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.84284375000001,"end":206.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.20534375000003,"end":208.48784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.14596875,"end":211.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.42409375000003,"end":212.28471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.01034375,"end":214.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.51221875000002,"end":215.27159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.48659375000003,"end":218.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.86159375000003,"end":223.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.70909375000002,"end":225.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.72971875000002,"end":228.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.73784375000002,"end":233.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.96909375,"end":245.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.22534375,"end":241.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.05159375000002,"end":249.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.22409375,"end":269.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.25034375,"end":274.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.62096875000003,"end":279.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.73409375,"end":281.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.69159375000004,"end":282.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.10909375,"end":296.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.81159375000004,"end":303.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.30409375,"end":307.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.61159375,"end":314.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.96909375,"end":315.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.08721875000003,"end":319.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.85471875,"end":327.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.75221875,"end":326.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.05596875000003,"end":326.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.16534375000003,"end":342.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.11659375000005,"end":361.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.61159375,"end":365.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.38721875000005,"end":367.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.95659375,"end":368.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.71159375,"end":370.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.99409375000005,"end":372.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.62659375000004,"end":375.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.73596875000004,"end":379.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.70159375000003,"end":380.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.96721875000003,"end":382.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.94159375000004,"end":383.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.14409375,"end":388.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.17784375,"end":383.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.99971875,"end":389.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.53534375000004,"end":394.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.80471875,"end":397.96034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.61846875000003,"end":399.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.76596875,"end":403.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.47409375,"end":405.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.85784375000003,"end":408.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.33846875,"end":412.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.67534375,"end":416.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.91096875000005,"end":418.17659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.88534375,"end":435.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.48596875000004,"end":442.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.88159375000004,"end":448.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.32784375000006,"end":450.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.03221875,"end":452.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.78721875,"end":456.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.46159375,"end":472.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.28721875,"end":467.04659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.34971875,"end":479.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.10784375000003,"end":490.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.85721875,"end":495.73409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.67909375000005,"end":510.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.55034375,"end":514.3134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.39784375,"end":515.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.65909375,"end":516.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":517.63784375,"end":528.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.02846875,"end":531.7453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.23471875,"end":539.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.3897187499999,"end":540.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.25846875,"end":554.9822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.58971875,"end":559.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.3528437500001,"end":565.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.3815937500001,"end":566.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":566.98034375,"end":572.3803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.86971875,"end":583.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.0747187500001,"end":591.2634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":591.76971875,"end":594.8915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.8915937500001,"end":605.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.96159375,"end":608.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.9822187500001,"end":612.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.82971875,"end":612.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.36971875,"end":625.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.6840937500001,"end":627.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.35909375,"end":634.5815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":635.1215937500001,"end":636.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":636.9272187500001,"end":639.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":639.7959687499999,"end":644.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.4028437500001,"end":651.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.8953437499999,"end":664.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.9565937500001,"end":674.3390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":674.7609687500001,"end":692.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.0747187500001,"end":693.96471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.402,"end":3.284,"text":"謝謝陳雪生、趙偉。請下王國材部長、趙新華局長還有齊相淑。齊相淑署長。"},{"start":11.99,"end":37.4,"text":"呃,召會長李召會長部長好對於任何地方重要的交通建設其實交通委員會長期以來都是不分黨派也沒有意識形態都會給予全力的支持我們看到馬祖的建設就好陳雪生召委也非常認真實在的爭取那也為馬祖爭取很多重要的交通建設那對於"},{"start":39.697,"end":66.132,"text":"國道六號延伸花蓮這樣的一個特別條例其實我們都是支持對於任何縣市尤其是花蓮一條安全的道路當然也都會全力的支持但是交通建設其實大家都很清楚是不能用法律來框定的它必須透過嚴謹的程序它有相關的不管是像地質調查"},{"start":68.134,"end":97.435,"text":"可行性研究還有環境的這樣的一個綜合規劃然後是環境影響評估環差的評估財務的評估都是必須經過這些程序的剛才也提到這次花蓮的地震舒花改發揮它應有的一個安全的功能目前是還沒有舒花安啦因為舒花安現在還在做環境影響評估不是嗎來說明一下是"},{"start":98.375,"end":126.639,"text":"剛才報告就是說蘇花安現在在做環評、中規所以就是只有蘇花港因為它其實本來就是蘇花高速公路嘛就是因為環境的一個評估沒有通過所以我們為了讓花蓮有安全的道路所以再改為蘇花港接著還有蘇花安所以我們對於交通建設都是會給予全力的支持"},{"start":127.219,"end":131.096,"text":"那當然這些其實剛才也提到"},{"start":132.236,"end":159.455,"text":"這一條道路從埔里到花蓮啊不管是從過去79年開始不管是一般的道路或是國道相關的延伸啊其實已經經過9次了經過藍綠的執政啊也已經經過9次的相關的評估啦分析啦什麼所以說我們必須還是要有一套嚴謹的程序啦尤其是經過中央山脈它有斷層的問題"},{"start":161.155,"end":186.852,"text":"啊他有言報的問題他有地熱的問題他有永全的問題所以他的地質的這樣的一個啊調查是非常重要的因為任何交通建設啊一定是要以安全為前提要以永續為前提要以共生為前提不是嗎安全的道理就是這樣來的啊那我們也提到說這一次"},{"start":187.887,"end":214.961,"text":"相關的這樣的一個國六東延的條例說要10年內要來完成可行嗎雪山隧道啊不過是13公里挖了15年啊才完成台北的鐵路地下化23公里啊也經過了28年啊才完成那我們相關的這些"},{"start":216.69,"end":245.166,"text":"國道六號的這些我們必須要清楚他全場大概是90公里有70公里是隧道最長的隧道在目前的規劃大概是超過17公里以上如果是真的施工的話當然是全世界第三長的隧道10年內能完成嗎部長、局長你們都是專業的交通人士交通的專家"},{"start":246.167,"end":269.702,"text":"如果這個條例通過10年內能完成嗎 來說明一下非常困難我跟委員在報告就國道這個東六號東延花蓮事實上過去是已經講說已經打死的不做了那我們後來覺得必須這個往前來走所以我們現在在做一件事就剛才談到的地址的調查還有路廊的踏竿路廊"},{"start":270.582,"end":295.652,"text":"我們要避過這些環境敏感或地質敏感的地帶那現在這個已經按照我們這個中長期個案計畫在進行當中了如果在我們榻坑路廊找到然後這個這個平屋可行我們就進入可行性然後綜合規劃、環評等等的程序那的確剛才委員所提的非常重要就是說過去我們全國的各個個案計畫"},{"start":296.912,"end":302.51,"text":"都是經過一個詳細的評估。如果沒有一個詳細的評估就把它定案。"},{"start":304.292,"end":328.217,"text":"﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":328.297,"end":354.376,"text":"不分黨派不分藍綠也沒有意識形態都會全力的支持我想陳雪生召委對於交通委員會長久的這樣的一個大家的共識覺得這是一個很重要的一個方向那對於重要的交通建設當然現在用定法律的狀況要來推動或者是大家對於權力分立的原則認為"},{"start":356.078,"end":372.498,"text":"禮委的權利應該要更大要凌駕行政要凌駕司法這都另當別論但是千萬別忘了交通建設安全永續共生這是最重要的前提"},{"start":373.823,"end":396.167,"text":"尤其是中央山脈這一次0403的花蓮大地震造成整個生態的衝擊我們要讓整個交通建設更符合安全永續的這樣的一個前提我希望各位委員交通委員會的委員要深切的思考另外我們現在來討論地震的問題"},{"start":400.007,"end":417.722,"text":"陳署長,我們這一次其實我們看到2024四月份這個四月到目前還沒有過完四月份總共發生了940次的地震那顯著的有感地震有191個最大的有感"},{"start":418.899,"end":436.169,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":436.553,"end":447.065,"text":"地震我們來比照2023年同樣是4月其實增加了10倍那2023年的這樣的一個災防的一個國家級警報發佈了13次2024年到今天已經發佈了26次是不是來署長說明一下"},{"start":458.53,"end":472.684,"text":"國家級警報發布有一定的標準只要規模和震度達到一個程度的時候就會發布的確在花蓮地震之後有很多的余震國家級警報是2012年我推動的當時還沒有細胞廣播系統也沒有國家級警報"},{"start":480.191,"end":495.303,"text":"那要求當時的毛志國部長必須要全力的建置相關的這一些機制也要求NCC要全力的配合但是我們國家級這個警報到目前為止他的"},{"start":496.738,"end":514.618,"text":"午報的情形還是時有發生我們這個機制應該要進行修正那我們看到2021年到今年到現在為止發生了7次重大的午報事件不管是2021年你看同一個地震宜蘭"},{"start":517.66,"end":534.707,"text":"同一個區域的地震發布了14次的地震或者是震度兩極他也發布這樣一個告警或者是台東二級地震卻在台南發布這個國家警的警報那這一次大家印象最深刻的就4月3日有7個縣市應該要發布沒有發布當然我們這個"},{"start":542.358,"end":570.617,"text":"四月三號當然是這個7.2級的這個地震也會低估為6.8級的強震所以我這七個縣市沒有發布那我有一個具體的想法地震預警應該要發布而沒有發布那現在發布的標準是25G對不對來署長說明一下是四級地震的震度25G好三級地震的能量大概是8至25G是不是這樣是"},{"start":573.379,"end":594.697,"text":"這個規模達到22.5G的時候其實就會感受到明顯的放動 對不對?是那我們會不會去修正這個花布值避免誤報也避免漏報的這樣一個情況這個修正值我們有沒有找學者專家來再次的開會來討論這個標準值應該是要多少來,署長說明一下"},{"start":594.997,"end":612.017,"text":"是 這個的確有考量我們也在檢討那相關的這個這些的作為我們其實已經有邀請了這個學者專家我們在下個禮拜就會有學者專家的討論會針對這個後續的相關的改善作為去做討論好署長"},{"start":613.439,"end":625.625,"text":"另外就是規模6.5以上的這個地震啊它震度會比較強而且一定會相關的餘震會比較多而且震的時間也比較久那我們是不是"},{"start":627.598,"end":641.162,"text":"來研究一下請專家學者大家來研究這個發生規模6.5以上的地震的時候震度3級以上是否這些區域也花布告緊這個是要很嚴謹的態度來思考來請署長簡單說明一下"},{"start":644.483,"end":664.011,"text":"是這個在過去我們的討論裡面的確有討論那這個部分因為發布會牽涉到防災單位相關的作為那其實過去我們有邀請這個災防辦還有地方政府的災防機關一起做討論那我想經過這一次的這個事件之後對這件事情會有一個比較明確的的結論"},{"start":664.991,"end":693.712,"text":" ＼"}]}},{"id":"15820","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15820","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302ddd40e7c6eb22b5d9c1b85a0a6bfb819213be8d109af184be45044fa06611bf30a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-17T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請交通部部長王國材就「花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查委員傅崐萁等53人擬具「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案」案。\n【詢答及處理】\n【4月15日、17日及18日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-17","start_time":"2024-04-17T09:37:39+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第7次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":7,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-7"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-04-17T13:38:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":14421,"委員發言時間":"09:37:39 - 13:38:00","影片長度":"04:00:21","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":258.97784375000003,"end":259.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1356.62909375,"end":1357.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1360.9659687500002,"end":1362.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1362.8897187500002,"end":1363.8853437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1366.2647187500002,"end":1369.2178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1370.9222187500002,"end":1372.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1372.52534375,"end":1373.1328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1373.79096875,"end":1374.7190937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1375.79909375,"end":1377.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1378.6340937500001,"end":1379.8153437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1380.3722187500002,"end":1381.9247187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1383.3422187500003,"end":1385.9915937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1387.3922187500002,"end":1388.5228437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1388.6409687500002,"end":1390.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1391.37471875,"end":1391.9147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1392.7415937500002,"end":1393.3997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1397.41596875,"end":1397.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1398.6309687500002,"end":1398.9009687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1400.0653437500002,"end":1401.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1402.5797187500002,"end":1404.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1405.16159375,"end":1406.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1407.2372187500002,"end":1408.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1409.7684687500002,"end":1410.6965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1411.9622187500001,"end":1413.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1414.84784375,"end":1417.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1417.9359687500003,"end":1418.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1418.4253437500001,"end":1420.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1421.3109687500003,"end":1421.8509687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1421.90159375,"end":1424.0953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1424.5172187500002,"end":1425.4959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1426.10346875,"end":1428.0609687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1428.4659687500002,"end":1429.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1430.5753437500002,"end":1431.5709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1431.6890937500002,"end":1433.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1434.57471875,"end":1435.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1435.67159375,"end":1436.4984687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1438.21971875,"end":1439.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1440.90284375,"end":1441.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1442.03346875,"end":1443.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1445.7459687500002,"end":1446.3197187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1448.1590937500002,"end":1449.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1450.4878437500001,"end":1452.9347187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1454.0147187500002,"end":1456.0228437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1456.93409375,"end":1458.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1460.86596875,"end":1462.4859687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1462.8572187500001,"end":1465.7259687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1466.4347187500002,"end":1468.3922187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1470.1809687500001,"end":1472.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1473.4547187500002,"end":1475.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1476.0028437500002,"end":1477.3697187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1478.29784375,"end":1480.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1481.23409375,"end":1482.1959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1482.7697187500003,"end":1484.1703437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1487.44409375,"end":1488.5072187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1490.26221875,"end":1491.1228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1491.2072187500003,"end":1492.4390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1492.92846875,"end":1494.2447187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1496.28659375,"end":1499.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1500.0159687500002,"end":1501.7372187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1502.5303437500002,"end":1502.8678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1503.9647187500002,"end":1506.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1507.1878437500002,"end":1507.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1508.40284375,"end":1510.9847187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1512.19971875,"end":1513.2459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1514.4609687500001,"end":1516.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1517.2959687500002,"end":1517.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1518.6965937500001,"end":1520.4515937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1520.48534375,"end":1521.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1521.7003437500002,"end":1522.3753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1523.01659375,"end":1524.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1525.3622187500002,"end":1526.0372187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1526.54346875,"end":1528.5684687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1529.05784375,"end":1529.5303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1530.5428437500002,"end":1532.9728437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1533.9515937500003,"end":1534.4915937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1535.2847187500001,"end":1536.7359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1537.5290937500001,"end":1537.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1538.7103437500002,"end":1540.3809687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1540.71846875,"end":1541.2415937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1541.9503437500002,"end":1543.6040937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1543.9078437500002,"end":1544.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1545.93284375,"end":1549.6284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1550.2697187500003,"end":1550.7422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1551.7884687500002,"end":1553.4253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1553.94846875,"end":1554.4209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1555.19721875,"end":1556.5978437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1557.1209687500002,"end":1557.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1558.6397187500002,"end":1561.9303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1563.0609687500003,"end":1565.1365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1565.5415937500002,"end":1566.6890937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1567.2628437500002,"end":1569.1022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1569.42284375,"end":1570.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1571.7853437500003,"end":1575.4978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1576.32471875,"end":1578.1978437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1578.5015937500002,"end":1581.4547187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1582.2478437500001,"end":1582.7540937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1583.61471875,"end":1588.7953437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1590.7697187500003,"end":1595.3428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1595.5453437500003,"end":1596.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1596.8953437500002,"end":1597.5703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1598.2115937500002,"end":1598.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1599.1565937500002,"end":1599.9834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1600.64159375,"end":1601.7047187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1602.2278437500001,"end":1602.9872187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1603.6959687500002,"end":1604.2190937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1604.7759687500002,"end":1609.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1610.8340937500002,"end":1614.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1614.8840937500001,"end":1615.3397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1616.1834687500002,"end":1618.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1619.3897187500002,"end":1619.7947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1621.02659375,"end":1623.4734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1623.6084687500002,"end":1625.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1627.1015937500001,"end":1629.7003437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1630.02096875,"end":1630.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1630.86471875,"end":1632.1134687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1632.85596875,"end":1633.3115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1638.76221875,"end":1639.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1640.56784375,"end":1641.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1642.55909375,"end":1643.2172187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1643.7909687500003,"end":1645.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1646.7103437500002,"end":1647.4190937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1648.60034375,"end":1649.2584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1650.13596875,"end":1650.7772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1651.84034375,"end":1653.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1653.8653437500002,"end":1654.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1655.2828437500002,"end":1657.3753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1657.8140937500002,"end":1658.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1659.26534375,"end":1659.9234687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1662.65721875,"end":1668.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1668.7659687500002,"end":1669.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1670.1497187500001,"end":1670.9259687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1671.6178437500002,"end":1672.2928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1672.6978437500002,"end":1676.3597187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1677.3047187500001,"end":1678.9247187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1679.66721875,"end":1681.7428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1694.0447187500001,"end":1696.5084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1697.1834687500002,"end":1699.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1700.5247187500001,"end":1702.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1702.9547187500002,"end":1703.9165937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1704.5240937500002,"end":1705.4859687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1706.1440937500001,"end":1707.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1708.5572187500002,"end":1710.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1711.2740937500002,"end":1714.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1715.0878437500003,"end":1718.5978437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1718.9353437500001,"end":1723.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1724.8415937500001,"end":1729.8534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1729.9378437500002,"end":1733.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1734.0553437500002,"end":1735.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1736.1815937500003,"end":1738.3922187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1738.7972187500002,"end":1743.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1744.51784375,"end":1746.3065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1746.6440937500001,"end":1749.7659687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1750.6603437500003,"end":1756.7859687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1757.30909375,"end":1760.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1760.9203437500003,"end":1768.8009687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1769.4928437500002,"end":1771.8384687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1772.0240937500002,"end":1777.4578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1777.8628437500001,"end":1778.4365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1778.6559687500003,"end":1795.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1796.0034687500001,"end":1801.2347187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1801.3697187500002,"end":1808.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1809.5034687500001,"end":1813.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1813.5872187500001,"end":1853.3278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1853.4628437500003,"end":1854.7115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1855.18409375,"end":1856.3822187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1856.9390937500002,"end":1876.7503437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1878.2690937500001,"end":1880.8340937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":1886.38596875,"end":1886.5715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1887.1453437500002,"end":1892.9672187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1896.9665937500001,"end":1900.5778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1900.7972187500002,"end":1902.4847187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1903.3622187500002,"end":1904.4759687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1906.5853437500002,"end":1909.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1909.8422187500003,"end":1910.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":1912.1034687500003,"end":1912.1540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":1912.1540937500001,"end":1912.1709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":1912.1709687500002,"end":1912.6603437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1912.6603437500003,"end":1917.5034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1918.2459687500002,"end":1922.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":1922.3803437500003,"end":1923.1903437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1923.6122187500002,"end":1926.6834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1927.0884687500002,"end":1935.4247187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1935.6609687500002,"end":1944.4022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1944.6553437500002,"end":1951.6922187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1952.0465937500003,"end":1955.3540937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1955.8434687500003,"end":1958.0372187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1958.5097187500003,"end":1964.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1964.7703437500002,"end":1967.1834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1967.26784375,"end":1968.8878437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1969.2422187500001,"end":1969.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1970.5078437500001,"end":1971.5878437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1971.9759687500002,"end":1972.2290937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1972.7859687500002,"end":1974.6422187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1975.2497187500003,"end":1976.7347187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1976.95409375,"end":1982.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1982.4722187500001,"end":1986.1847187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1986.4884687500003,"end":1999.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2000.02221875,"end":2001.3553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2002.5365937500003,"end":2005.1184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2005.3884687500001,"end":2007.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2008.74659375,"end":2015.0578437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2015.2434687500001,"end":2020.0865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2020.5422187500003,"end":2023.6303437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2024.0184687500002,"end":2028.3890937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2028.5578437500003,"end":2031.7640937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2031.9159687500003,"end":2035.2403437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2035.61159375,"end":2038.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2038.3115937500002,"end":2045.6859687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2045.9053437500002,"end":2051.2715937499997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2051.42346875,"end":2079.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2079.6553437500006,"end":2086.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2086.8778437500005,"end":2091.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2091.92346875,"end":2093.4422187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2094.20159375,"end":2108.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2108.42721875,"end":2113.5065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2113.77659375,"end":2115.8184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2116.13909375,"end":2140.4053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2140.6247187500003,"end":2143.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2143.6622187500006,"end":2149.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2163.9122187500006,"end":2168.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2169.0253437500005,"end":2172.3497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2172.50159375,"end":2174.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2174.7965937500003,"end":2176.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2176.77096875,"end":2187.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2188.46534375,"end":2189.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2190.57471875,"end":2192.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2194.7428437500002,"end":2198.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2200.15971875,"end":2201.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2202.4040937500004,"end":2208.7322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2209.4747187500006,"end":2214.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2214.55409375,"end":2216.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2216.5622187500003,"end":2225.1853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2225.59034375,"end":2229.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2230.4840937500003,"end":2235.9178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2236.62659375,"end":2237.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2238.2128437500005,"end":2242.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2243.3934687500005,"end":2245.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2246.00909375,"end":2246.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2246.9540937500005,"end":2249.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2249.87346875,"end":2250.8522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2251.51034375,"end":2253.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2253.55221875,"end":2256.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2256.50534375,"end":2256.9440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2257.8553437500004,"end":2264.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2264.7234687500004,"end":2265.5672187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2266.91721875,"end":2270.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2271.22034375,"end":2281.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2282.30721875,"end":2283.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2284.2478437500004,"end":2289.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2290.20471875,"end":2295.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2295.60471875,"end":2304.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2304.41346875,"end":2308.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2309.0878437500005,"end":2312.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2313.1715937500003,"end":2313.4922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2313.8972187500003,"end":2319.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2322.60471875,"end":2327.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2328.10596875,"end":2330.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2331.29534375,"end":2335.1934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2335.9697187500005,"end":2339.5134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2339.56409375,"end":2341.2178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2342.26409375,"end":2346.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2347.14096875,"end":2347.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2348.17034375,"end":2349.3515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2349.73971875,"end":2351.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2351.59596875,"end":2352.1865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2352.38909375,"end":2356.7428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2356.9959687500004,"end":2358.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2358.95346875,"end":2380.6715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2381.12721875,"end":2384.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2384.70471875,"end":2387.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2387.45534375,"end":2387.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2388.3497187500006,"end":2395.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2396.02784375,"end":2398.5928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2399.1834687500004,"end":2401.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2402.22096875,"end":2406.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2406.27096875,"end":2407.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2407.90784375,"end":2409.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2409.76409375,"end":2412.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2413.37534375,"end":2416.1765937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2416.51409375,"end":2417.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2417.30721875,"end":2417.8640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2419.29846875,"end":2420.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2420.8340937500006,"end":2424.1922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2424.4959687500004,"end":2430.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2431.44846875,"end":2432.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2432.49471875,"end":2437.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2438.19846875,"end":2441.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2441.8603437500005,"end":2443.1934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2443.7334687500006,"end":2445.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2445.26909375,"end":2449.4372187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2450.02784375,"end":2452.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2452.8797187500004,"end":2453.7740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2454.4997187500003,"end":2456.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2458.87034375,"end":2465.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2466.22784375,"end":2473.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2474.5809687500005,"end":2475.9140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2476.25159375,"end":2481.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2481.4490937500004,"end":2487.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2487.5240937500002,"end":2502.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2502.3572187500004,"end":2504.7703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2505.27659375,"end":2518.9959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2519.2997187500005,"end":2522.3203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2522.7422187500006,"end":2528.0240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2528.5134687500004,"end":2528.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2529.2559687500006,"end":2533.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2534.08221875,"end":2535.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2535.6347187500005,"end":2547.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2547.76784375,"end":2549.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2551.49721875,"end":2558.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2559.39471875,"end":2562.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2562.34784375,"end":2563.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2563.57971875,"end":2586.1922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2586.58034375,"end":2590.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2591.0184687500005,"end":2595.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2595.62534375,"end":2600.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2600.99159375,"end":2605.6153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2605.86846875,"end":2614.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2614.1709687500006,"end":2614.8965937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2615.26784375,"end":2619.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2619.5372187500006,"end":2620.1953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2620.44846875,"end":2624.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2625.1903437500005,"end":2626.6922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2626.91159375,"end":2628.9197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2629.6959687500002,"end":2639.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2639.7703437500004,"end":2644.9003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2645.2547187500004,"end":2645.7947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2646.1659687500005,"end":2658.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2659.0584687500004,"end":2660.3747187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2660.71221875,"end":2661.4040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2661.7753437500005,"end":2662.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2662.95659375,"end":2669.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2669.57159375,"end":2676.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2676.8953437500004,"end":2677.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2677.5703437500006,"end":2678.2959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2678.6334687500002,"end":2689.2478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2689.8047187500006,"end":2691.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2692.4540937500005,"end":2694.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2695.2722187500003,"end":2697.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2698.0059687500006,"end":2698.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2699.03534375,"end":2703.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2703.4734687500004,"end":2705.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2706.17346875,"end":2712.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2712.9909687500003,"end":2714.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2714.59409375,"end":2716.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2717.5303437500006,"end":2720.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2720.80409375,"end":2723.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2723.82471875,"end":2728.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2729.29221875,"end":2740.8515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2740.9528437500003,"end":2741.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2741.8640937500004,"end":2742.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2743.1297187500004,"end":2744.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2744.3953437500004,"end":2747.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2747.55096875,"end":2750.1328437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2750.58846875,"end":2760.5615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2760.7472187500007,"end":2761.9453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2761.9959687500004,"end":2768.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2768.9822187500004,"end":2772.3740937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2772.7284687500005,"end":2776.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2776.9472187500005,"end":2779.4784687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2779.86659375,"end":2782.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2783.1065937500007,"end":2785.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2785.94159375,"end":2786.2284687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2786.5322187500005,"end":2790.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2790.4978437500004,"end":2791.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2793.13034375,"end":2793.4678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2793.78846875,"end":2795.4422187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2795.7459687500004,"end":2796.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2796.2353437500005,"end":2797.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2797.83846875,"end":2804.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2804.3184687500006,"end":2808.3515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2808.50346875,"end":2810.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2810.9503437500007,"end":2812.6884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2812.77284375,"end":2820.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2820.92346875,"end":2834.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2834.4403437500005,"end":2834.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2835.4022187500004,"end":2835.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2836.11096875,"end":2839.1484687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2839.77284375,"end":2844.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2844.71721875,"end":2851.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2852.12534375,"end":2852.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2853.22221875,"end":2854.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2855.4834687500006,"end":2859.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2859.11159375,"end":2865.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2865.67596875,"end":2866.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2866.60409375,"end":2867.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2868.39284375,"end":2872.5778437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2872.8309687500005,"end":2875.1934687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2875.4803437500004,"end":2880.1378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2880.44159375,"end":2882.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2883.47909375,"end":2884.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2886.3984687500006,"end":2892.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2893.2497187500003,"end":2894.2959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2894.80221875,"end":2897.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2897.99159375,"end":2900.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2900.6240937500006,"end":2907.1378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2907.74534375,"end":2910.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2911.96409375,"end":2915.3053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2915.4909687500003,"end":2918.2247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2918.6972187500005,"end":2925.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2926.1222187500007,"end":2927.4215937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2927.82659375,"end":2929.7165937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":2930.2059687500005,"end":2933.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2936.14596875,"end":2939.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2940.01034375,"end":2941.4278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2941.63034375,"end":2942.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2943.67221875,"end":2945.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2945.61284375,"end":2945.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":2946.67596875,"end":2948.0597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2949.1903437500005,"end":2957.6784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2957.96534375,"end":2978.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2978.2997187500005,"end":2983.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2983.69971875,"end":2985.8428437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2986.2478437500004,"end":2991.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2991.69846875,"end":2994.0440937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2994.12846875,"end":3001.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3001.58721875,"end":3002.0597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3003.0553437500002,"end":3007.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3007.25721875,"end":3015.9647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3016.23471875,"end":3020.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3020.28471875,"end":3020.7909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3021.1959687500002,"end":3025.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3025.58346875,"end":3028.7897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3028.94159375,"end":3031.8103437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3032.31659375,"end":3041.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3042.74534375,"end":3044.9053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3045.22596875,"end":3046.2890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3046.8965937500006,"end":3052.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3053.0390937500006,"end":3056.2959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3056.56596875,"end":3056.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3057.08909375,"end":3067.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3068.24346875,"end":3075.6347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3076.7653437500003,"end":3077.0184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3077.89596875,"end":3080.9840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3081.4059687500003,"end":3083.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3083.7178437500006,"end":3084.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3084.6122187500005,"end":3086.5865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3086.9747187500006,"end":3089.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3090.8728437500004,"end":3091.2947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3091.46346875,"end":3098.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3099.3272187500006,"end":3101.8584687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3105.08159375,"end":3105.5709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3105.73971875,"end":3110.5997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3111.0047187500004,"end":3111.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3112.3884687500004,"end":3114.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3114.54846875,"end":3115.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3115.81409375,"end":3117.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3118.0584687500004,"end":3126.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3127.12034375,"end":3137.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3138.15659375,"end":3139.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3139.96221875,"end":3140.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3140.9747187500006,"end":3145.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3146.3915937500005,"end":3147.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3147.69096875,"end":3152.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":3152.4834687500006,"end":3161.0897187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3167.9747187500006,"end":3169.3415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3169.5440937500007,"end":3170.8097187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3171.9909687500003,"end":3173.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3174.5222187500003,"end":3174.8259687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3175.3659687500003,"end":3178.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3178.8084687500004,"end":3180.4453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3181.12034375,"end":3182.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3182.82471875,"end":3185.7272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3186.4528437500003,"end":3188.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3189.22034375,"end":3192.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3192.8990937500002,"end":3196.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3196.9490937500004,"end":3198.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3198.6534687500007,"end":3199.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3200.42534375,"end":3205.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3207.3947187500007,"end":3211.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3212.64284375,"end":3214.6172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3214.6847187500007,"end":3216.4734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3217.84034375,"end":3220.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3225.24846875,"end":3228.5222187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3229.51784375,"end":3232.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3232.77471875,"end":3237.4997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3237.8034687500003,"end":3239.3222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3239.82846875,"end":3240.4022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3241.16159375,"end":3242.5622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3242.91659375,"end":3244.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3245.0597187500007,"end":3247.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3252.18096875,"end":3258.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3256.5515937500004,"end":3258.4415937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3259.3359687500006,"end":3260.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3262.7784687500007,"end":3262.8122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3262.8122187500003,"end":3264.2803437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3264.2803437500006,"end":3264.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3264.29721875,"end":3265.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3265.4109687500004,"end":3266.0859687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3266.0859687500006,"end":3266.4909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3266.64284375,"end":3267.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3268.21221875,"end":3289.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3290.68971875,"end":3297.1697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3297.69284375,"end":3308.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3309.1678437500004,"end":3311.7497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3311.9353437500004,"end":3314.7028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3315.0065937500003,"end":3318.1622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3319.3097187500007,"end":3320.4909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3320.96346875,"end":3329.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3329.4178437500004,"end":3331.6959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3332.47221875,"end":3334.0584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3334.5478437500005,"end":3336.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3336.9440937500003,"end":3347.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3347.7440937500005,"end":3348.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3347.96346875,"end":3348.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3348.4697187500005,"end":3348.9590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3348.9590937500006,"end":3356.4684687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3354.29159375,"end":3356.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3356.4684687500003,"end":3369.1247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3369.6647187500002,"end":3371.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3371.38596875,"end":3371.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3371.6222187500007,"end":3380.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3380.2284687500005,"end":3382.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3383.2997187500005,"end":3388.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3388.8347187500003,"end":3391.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3391.41659375,"end":3395.2472187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3395.73659375,"end":3403.6172187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3403.76909375,"end":3404.2078437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3404.2078437500004,"end":3411.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3412.32471875,"end":3413.0840937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3413.57346875,"end":3420.9140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3422.26409375,"end":3424.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3425.09909375,"end":3426.4659687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3426.71909375,"end":3433.0978437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3434.0934687500003,"end":3436.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3436.54034375,"end":3438.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3439.0378437500003,"end":3440.7928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3441.41721875,"end":3442.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3443.9315937500005,"end":3445.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3446.5809687500005,"end":3447.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3448.7578437500006,"end":3449.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3450.34409375,"end":3451.6940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3452.7909687500005,"end":3454.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3454.7315937500007,"end":3455.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3456.08159375,"end":3457.9209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3458.4440937500003,"end":3459.7097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3460.3847187500005,"end":3462.3253437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3462.6628437500003,"end":3463.5065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3464.2490937500006,"end":3465.4303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3465.7509687500005,"end":3466.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3467.7253437500003,"end":3469.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3471.1003437500003,"end":3474.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3474.94784375,"end":3477.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3477.9684687500003,"end":3479.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3479.99346875,"end":3484.8028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3485.19096875,"end":3496.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3492.48096875,"end":3492.8015937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3497.3409687500007,"end":3500.5134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3500.5134687500004,"end":3508.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3508.3434687500003,"end":3513.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3513.4734687500004,"end":3521.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3521.47221875,"end":3525.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3525.8934687500005,"end":3534.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3534.3478437500007,"end":3547.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3548.05034375,"end":3554.7159687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3555.52596875,"end":3558.4284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3558.83346875,"end":3566.1403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3566.30909375,"end":3570.6797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3569.1103437500005,"end":3579.1003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3576.9909687500003,"end":3577.3622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3579.38721875,"end":3594.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3594.4059687500003,"end":3612.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3612.8672187500006,"end":3617.1872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3617.64284375,"end":3618.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3619.1953437500006,"end":3619.9884687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3620.9334687500004,"end":3621.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3622.23284375,"end":3623.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3624.8653437500006,"end":3626.4347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3626.9747187500006,"end":3630.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3630.9403437500005,"end":3631.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3632.2228437500007,"end":3633.9440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3634.21409375,"end":3634.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3634.34909375,"end":3634.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3634.3659687500003,"end":3634.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3634.39971875,"end":3636.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":3634.4334687500004,"end":3634.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3636.2390937500004,"end":3639.9347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3640.2384687500007,"end":3640.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3641.7740937500002,"end":3645.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3646.0772187500006,"end":3649.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3649.8572187500004,"end":3650.3634687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3651.0047187500004,"end":3655.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3655.72971875,"end":3656.5397187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3657.0965937500005,"end":3659.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3659.59409375,"end":3663.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3663.9140937500006,"end":3666.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3666.0909687500007,"end":3667.5084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3668.1328437500006,"end":3669.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3670.1072187500004,"end":3686.9822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3687.7247187500006,"end":3700.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3700.5497187500005,"end":3701.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3702.27096875,"end":3703.6209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3704.00909375,"end":3708.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3708.7003437500007,"end":3723.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3717.50909375,"end":3718.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3722.58846875,"end":3730.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3731.3634687500007,"end":3746.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3747.9178437500004,"end":3761.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3761.8397187500004,"end":3765.4678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3765.67034375,"end":3766.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3767.89784375,"end":3768.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3768.8428437500006,"end":3779.6090937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3780.26721875,"end":3782.9840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3783.4903437500006,"end":3790.2234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3790.61159375,"end":3791.7422187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3793.4972187500007,"end":3806.1872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3806.82846875,"end":3810.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3810.6084687500006,"end":3816.2615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3815.6540937500004,"end":3818.2022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3818.2022187500006,"end":3823.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3824.1084687500006,"end":3834.7228437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3835.3134687500005,"end":3837.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3837.62534375,"end":3842.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3843.0253437500005,"end":3846.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3846.13034375,"end":3856.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3857.1834687500004,"end":3860.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3860.2040937500005,"end":3864.0515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3864.0515937500004,"end":3864.0684687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3864.6084687500006,"end":3875.6447187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3875.7628437500007,"end":3877.1465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3877.93971875,"end":3878.4628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3878.5978437500007,"end":3885.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3886.3603437500005,"end":3887.7272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3888.1490937500002,"end":3890.5115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3891.01784375,"end":3895.2872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3895.6415937500005,"end":3903.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":3903.2184687500003,"end":3916.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3916.21221875,"end":3925.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3926.0165937500005,"end":3943.3640937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3943.34721875,"end":3945.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3947.9372187500003,"end":3948.4434687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":3949.60784375,"end":3951.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3963.3947187500007,"end":3966.9384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3971.5790937500005,"end":3971.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3971.59596875,"end":3975.2409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3975.4434687500006,"end":3978.0422187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3978.59909375,"end":3979.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3979.86471875,"end":3980.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3980.65784375,"end":3981.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3982.2440937500005,"end":3983.1384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3983.4422187500004,"end":3985.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3985.9734687500004,"end":3991.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3987.1378437500007,"end":3987.4922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":3991.5084687500002,"end":3991.7784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3991.79534375,"end":3993.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3994.02284375,"end":3995.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3996.62159375,"end":4000.5197187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4000.9922187500006,"end":4004.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4005.41346875,"end":4006.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4007.70846875,"end":4010.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4011.20159375,"end":4012.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4013.6315937500003,"end":4018.7784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4019.1328437500006,"end":4021.0565937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4021.8497187500006,"end":4025.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4026.4734687500004,"end":4030.0509687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4030.7090937500006,"end":4032.5822187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4032.97034375,"end":4034.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4035.73784375,"end":4040.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4042.5215937500006,"end":4050.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4051.22909375,"end":4054.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4056.0215937500006,"end":4059.5147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4060.4259687500007,"end":4061.1515937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4061.89409375,"end":4062.9909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4063.2947187500004,"end":4069.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4069.1672187500008,"end":4075.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4076.7272187500002,"end":4081.0134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4081.0978437500007,"end":4088.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4088.7253437500003,"end":4090.9528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4091.4422187500004,"end":4092.9609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4093.65284375,"end":4095.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4096.065968749999,"end":4100.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4100.892218749999,"end":4110.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4110.91596875,"end":4112.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4112.50221875,"end":4120.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4121.17596875,"end":4124.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4125.90096875,"end":4127.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4128.63471875,"end":4130.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4131.655343750001,"end":4142.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4143.079718749999,"end":4149.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4150.538468750001,"end":4152.1415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4152.749093750001,"end":4154.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4154.92596875,"end":4155.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4156.46159375,"end":4157.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4158.317843750001,"end":4159.954718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4160.68034375,"end":4163.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4164.696593750001,"end":4168.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4168.679093750001,"end":4175.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4176.81284375,"end":4184.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4183.967843750001,"end":4184.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4184.45721875,"end":4184.710343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4184.710343750001,"end":4184.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4184.74409375,"end":4184.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4184.92971875,"end":4185.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4185.030968749999,"end":4187.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4188.186593750001,"end":4191.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4192.304093750001,"end":4200.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4200.62346875,"end":4205.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4206.19221875,"end":4208.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4209.58409375,"end":4217.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4217.802218750001,"end":4224.315968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4224.58596875,"end":4229.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4230.10409375,"end":4232.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4232.39909375,"end":4235.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4236.229718750001,"end":4242.034718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4242.743468750001,"end":4249.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4250.6747187500005,"end":4254.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4255.28159375,"end":4258.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4259.382218750001,"end":4260.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4261.491593750001,"end":4277.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4277.657843749999,"end":4280.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4280.59409375,"end":4286.331593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4286.517218749999,"end":4286.6522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4286.82096875,"end":4289.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4290.702218750001,"end":4294.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4294.98846875,"end":4295.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4295.91659375,"end":4296.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4296.99659375,"end":4299.831593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4300.202843749999,"end":4308.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4309.163468750001,"end":4310.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4310.901593750001,"end":4312.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4313.432843750001,"end":4314.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4316.03159375,"end":4316.048468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4316.048468749999,"end":4318.950968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4319.575343750001,"end":4323.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4323.81096875,"end":4326.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4326.224093750001,"end":4327.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4327.84409375,"end":4329.075968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4329.734093749999,"end":4332.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4333.395968750001,"end":4337.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4337.378468749999,"end":4339.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4339.50471875,"end":4341.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4342.778468750001,"end":4344.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4345.124093750001,"end":4349.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4350.49034375,"end":4352.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4352.937218749999,"end":4357.155968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4357.37534375,"end":4358.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4359.180968750001,"end":4359.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4360.69971875,"end":4374.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4375.17846875,"end":4380.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4381.489718750001,"end":4382.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4382.890343749999,"end":4389.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4389.75846875,"end":4394.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4394.939093749999,"end":4395.327218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4395.512843750001,"end":4412.421593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4412.59034375,"end":4419.222218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4419.67784375,"end":4422.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4422.9178437499995,"end":4425.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4426.51221875,"end":4431.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4432.09784375,"end":4432.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4432.350968750001,"end":4433.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4434.42659375,"end":4436.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4437.48096875,"end":4441.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4441.51409375,"end":4441.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4441.7840937500005,"end":4441.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4441.88534375,"end":4441.952843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4441.952843749999,"end":4441.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4441.9697187500005,"end":4442.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4442.03721875,"end":4442.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4442.155343750001,"end":4442.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4442.189093749999,"end":4445.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4445.39534375,"end":4456.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4456.954718749999,"end":4458.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4458.929093750001,"end":4462.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4463.046593749999,"end":4465.341593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4465.42596875,"end":4469.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4465.544093750001,"end":4466.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4469.83034375,"end":4477.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4473.39096875,"end":4473.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4476.3778437500005,"end":4476.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4476.39471875,"end":4476.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4477.93034375,"end":4480.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4480.545968750001,"end":4480.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4480.680968750001,"end":4492.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4492.64534375,"end":4492.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4492.84784375,"end":4493.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4493.97846875,"end":4495.952843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4494.19784375,"end":4494.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4496.40846875,"end":4503.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4503.9853437500005,"end":4504.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4505.419718749999,"end":4506.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4506.786593750001,"end":4508.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4508.997218750001,"end":4512.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4513.452218750001,"end":4515.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4515.983468750001,"end":4516.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4517.805968750001,"end":4518.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4518.21096875,"end":4518.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4518.34596875,"end":4518.548468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4519.98284375,"end":4520.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":4525.872218750001,"end":4529.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":4534.24221875,"end":4536.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":4536.99284375,"end":4677.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4651.067843750001,"end":4651.439093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":4677.34221875,"end":4767.5897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4766.712218750001,"end":4767.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4767.70784375,"end":4772.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4772.97284375,"end":4795.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4795.5009687500005,"end":4802.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4802.68971875,"end":4803.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4803.85409375,"end":4809.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4810.23284375,"end":4811.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4811.5322187500005,"end":4816.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4816.965968750001,"end":4821.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":4820.796593749999,"end":4823.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4823.31096875,"end":4833.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":4829.11596875,"end":4829.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":4829.149718750001,"end":4829.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":4829.571593750001,"end":4830.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4833.233468750001,"end":4834.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4834.98846875,"end":4840.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4840.65846875,"end":4843.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4843.66221875,"end":4844.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4845.0965937500005,"end":4849.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4849.264718750001,"end":4849.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":4849.51784375,"end":4849.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4849.51784375,"end":4855.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":4855.120343750001,"end":4876.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4861.954718749999,"end":4862.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4876.12971875,"end":4876.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_34","start":4876.8553437499995,"end":4876.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4877.614718750001,"end":4880.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4882.42409375,"end":4884.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":4887.95909375,"end":4890.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4893.94971875,"end":4899.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4901.35784375,"end":4902.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4903.956593750001,"end":4904.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4905.05346875,"end":4906.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4907.07846875,"end":4908.462218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4907.7197187500005,"end":4908.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4908.66471875,"end":4908.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4908.7997187500005,"end":4908.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4908.968468749999,"end":4911.077843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4912.00596875,"end":4913.609093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4913.609093749999,"end":4913.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4914.01409375,"end":4915.634093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4916.07284375,"end":4917.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4918.215968750001,"end":4921.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4921.5740937499995,"end":4922.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4923.3290937500005,"end":4924.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":4924.29096875,"end":4925.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4925.91096875,"end":4928.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4929.30284375,"end":4931.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4931.41221875,"end":4932.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4932.67784375,"end":4938.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4936.42409375,"end":4937.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4938.53346875,"end":4938.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4940.22096875,"end":4943.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4943.528468750001,"end":4944.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4945.030343750001,"end":4952.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4953.130343750001,"end":4955.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4956.0497187500005,"end":4956.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4957.3153437500005,"end":4957.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4958.36159375,"end":4960.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4961.854718750001,"end":4964.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4964.82471875,"end":4965.415343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4965.685343749999,"end":4966.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4967.25471875,"end":4968.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4968.368468750001,"end":4969.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4971.270968750001,"end":4973.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4973.7684687500005,"end":4975.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4975.70909375,"end":4976.704718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4976.940968750001,"end":4980.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4980.77159375,"end":4982.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4982.25659375,"end":4986.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4982.35784375,"end":4982.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4986.374093750001,"end":4991.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4987.79159375,"end":4987.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4987.97721875,"end":4988.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4988.02784375,"end":4988.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4988.12909375,"end":4988.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4988.2303437499995,"end":4988.280968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4990.305968750001,"end":4990.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4990.32284375,"end":4991.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4991.622218750001,"end":4995.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4992.5165937500005,"end":4994.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4995.19971875,"end":4995.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4995.233468750001,"end":4996.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":4999.0809687500005,"end":5001.122843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5001.66284375,"end":5002.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5003.282843749999,"end":5004.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5006.13471875,"end":5009.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5009.982218749999,"end":5010.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5011.65284375,"end":5012.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5013.559718750001,"end":5014.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5015.145968750001,"end":5017.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5018.099093750001,"end":5019.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5019.786593750001,"end":5021.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5021.35596875,"end":5021.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5021.659718750001,"end":5022.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5022.7059687500005,"end":5022.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5022.975968750001,"end":5023.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5023.33034375,"end":5023.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5023.38096875,"end":5024.528468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5025.372218750001,"end":5030.654093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5030.26596875,"end":5033.759093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5033.8603437500005,"end":5033.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5033.97846875,"end":5034.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5034.34971875,"end":5034.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5034.974093750001,"end":5036.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5037.741593750001,"end":5040.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5041.116593750001,"end":5041.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5042.26409375,"end":5042.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5042.5340937500005,"end":5045.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5045.53784375,"end":5047.579718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5048.052218750001,"end":5049.368468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5050.161593750001,"end":5051.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5052.54096875,"end":5054.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5055.25784375,"end":5057.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5058.10971875,"end":5058.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5059.628468750001,"end":5062.345343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5062.868468750001,"end":5063.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5064.67409375,"end":5067.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5069.095343749999,"end":5070.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5071.626593749999,"end":5073.4490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5073.499718749999,"end":5075.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5076.09846875,"end":5079.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5080.23284375,"end":5082.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5083.439093749999,"end":5087.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5088.0965937500005,"end":5089.682843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5090.72909375,"end":5091.404093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5091.52221875,"end":5092.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5092.97346875,"end":5092.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5093.850968750001,"end":5093.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5093.91846875,"end":5111.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5110.675343750001,"end":5112.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":5113.1728437500005,"end":5113.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5113.22346875,"end":5114.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5115.467843750001,"end":5117.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5117.64471875,"end":5120.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5121.036593750001,"end":5123.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5123.5340937500005,"end":5124.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5124.05721875,"end":5126.234093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5126.706593750001,"end":5128.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5128.47846875,"end":5129.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5129.69346875,"end":5131.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5132.30909375,"end":5132.984093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5133.52409375,"end":5134.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5134.84034375,"end":5137.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5137.42221875,"end":5137.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5137.8778437500005,"end":5137.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5138.805968750001,"end":5140.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5138.87346875,"end":5143.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5143.88534375,"end":5146.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5143.9697187500005,"end":5144.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5145.032843749999,"end":5145.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5145.11721875,"end":5147.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5148.05346875,"end":5150.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5151.90096875,"end":5152.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5153.706593750001,"end":5154.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5154.38159375,"end":5156.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5156.45721875,"end":5156.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5156.8622187500005,"end":5156.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5156.946593750001,"end":5157.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5157.67221875,"end":5160.608468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5160.94596875,"end":5161.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5161.99221875,"end":5163.932843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5162.65034375,"end":5162.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5164.50659375,"end":5165.654093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5166.21096875,"end":5167.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5168.6747187500005,"end":5168.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5169.450968749999,"end":5170.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5170.88534375,"end":5171.999093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5172.690968750001,"end":5174.564093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5174.96909375,"end":5175.779093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5176.724093750001,"end":5177.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5178.934718750001,"end":5180.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5182.47846875,"end":5183.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5185.077218750001,"end":5186.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5185.9715937500005,"end":5189.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5190.07221875,"end":5192.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5194.307843750001,"end":5196.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5196.72096875,"end":5197.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5199.38721875,"end":5201.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5201.86784375,"end":5202.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5202.66096875,"end":5204.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5205.05721875,"end":5206.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5206.69409375,"end":5207.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":5207.74034375,"end":5209.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5208.63471875,"end":5211.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5211.80721875,"end":5213.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5214.10221875,"end":5214.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5215.6209687499995,"end":5216.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5217.7303437499995,"end":5221.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5220.5653437500005,"end":5222.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5222.2528437500005,"end":5227.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5228.530343750001,"end":5230.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5231.483468750001,"end":5233.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5233.66034375,"end":5234.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5235.85409375,"end":5236.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5237.288468750001,"end":5238.216593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5238.790343750001,"end":5239.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5240.190968750001,"end":5242.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5242.97534375,"end":5244.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5245.28721875,"end":5247.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5247.86909375,"end":5248.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5249.16846875,"end":5251.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5252.49284375,"end":5255.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5255.59784375,"end":5257.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5258.82096875,"end":5260.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5261.014718750001,"end":5262.044093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5262.11159375,"end":5263.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5263.680968750001,"end":5265.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5266.41471875,"end":5267.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5268.8447187500005,"end":5271.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5272.74284375,"end":5274.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5276.13471875,"end":5279.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5280.454718749999,"end":5283.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5284.200968749999,"end":5285.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5286.0740937499995,"end":5289.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5289.5165937500005,"end":5290.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5291.372843749999,"end":5299.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5300.53596875,"end":5304.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5305.210343750001,"end":5306.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5306.96534375,"end":5310.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5311.167218750001,"end":5314.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5314.862843750001,"end":5316.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5317.917218750001,"end":5319.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5320.482218749999,"end":5322.7772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5324.093468749999,"end":5327.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5327.82284375,"end":5330.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5330.96159375,"end":5332.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5332.530968749999,"end":5333.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5333.83034375,"end":5335.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5335.534718750001,"end":5337.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5338.75784375,"end":5340.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5341.542218750001,"end":5343.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5343.735968749999,"end":5346.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5346.80721875,"end":5347.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5348.0897187499995,"end":5348.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5350.14846875,"end":5351.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5351.86971875,"end":5352.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5352.645968750001,"end":5354.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5354.991593750001,"end":5355.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5357.06721875,"end":5361.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5362.349093750001,"end":5363.901593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5363.96909375,"end":5365.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5366.432843750001,"end":5367.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5367.7997187500005,"end":5368.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5369.72346875,"end":5370.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5371.05659375,"end":5372.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5373.317843750001,"end":5375.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5375.88284375,"end":5377.9247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5378.4647187499995,"end":5379.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5381.26596875,"end":5382.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5383.679093750001,"end":5385.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5385.56909375,"end":5390.327843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5388.99471875,"end":5389.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5390.46284375,"end":5390.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5390.665343750001,"end":5390.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5390.68221875,"end":5390.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5390.83409375,"end":5393.095343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5393.26409375,"end":5395.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5396.68971875,"end":5397.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5397.39846875,"end":5398.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5399.474093750001,"end":5400.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5401.36409375,"end":5404.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5405.481593750001,"end":5407.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5407.55721875,"end":5410.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5410.965968750001,"end":5412.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5412.653468750001,"end":5413.345343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5413.632218750001,"end":5414.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5415.640343749999,"end":5416.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5416.905968749999,"end":5417.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5418.829718749999,"end":5420.280968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5421.0740937499995,"end":5421.732218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5422.03596875,"end":5425.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5425.765343749999,"end":5427.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":5428.262843750001,"end":5433.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5429.0897187499995,"end":5429.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5431.9247187500005,"end":5432.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5432.3465937500005,"end":5432.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5432.565968750001,"end":5433.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5433.00471875,"end":5433.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5433.07221875,"end":5433.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5434.75971875,"end":5438.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5439.01221875,"end":5439.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5439.180968750001,"end":5441.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5445.47534375,"end":5447.095343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5448.34409375,"end":5455.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":5454.975968750001,"end":5455.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5460.66284375,"end":5461.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5461.42221875,"end":5497.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5497.56846875,"end":5499.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5500.08284375,"end":5516.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5517.80159375,"end":5568.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5560.41096875,"end":5561.001593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5561.659718750001,"end":5561.8622187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5561.92971875,"end":5562.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5562.030968749999,"end":5562.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5569.304093750001,"end":5582.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5583.90096875,"end":5586.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5586.76971875,"end":5590.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5590.3134687500005,"end":5590.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5591.376593749999,"end":5592.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5592.99659375,"end":5598.7509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5595.81471875,"end":5597.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5599.999718749999,"end":5608.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5604.20159375,"end":5604.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5604.43784375,"end":5604.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5608.4540937500005,"end":5630.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5630.999093750001,"end":5635.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5636.010968750001,"end":5636.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5637.15846875,"end":5638.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5638.440968750001,"end":5638.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5638.964093750001,"end":5645.950343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5640.19596875,"end":5640.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5640.651593750001,"end":5640.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5646.405968749999,"end":5659.247843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5654.82659375,"end":5654.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5654.91096875,"end":5654.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5654.97846875,"end":5655.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5655.029093749999,"end":5655.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5655.14721875,"end":5655.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5659.5009687500005,"end":5660.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5660.46284375,"end":5664.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5660.564093749999,"end":5661.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5661.66096875,"end":5663.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5664.310343749999,"end":5667.179093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5665.019093750001,"end":5665.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5667.34784375,"end":5687.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5671.296593749999,"end":5671.3134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5671.532843749999,"end":5671.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5671.583468750001,"end":5671.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5689.015343749999,"end":5706.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5689.04909375,"end":5689.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5705.63721875,"end":5705.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5706.61596875,"end":5713.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5707.61159375,"end":5708.387843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5709.29909375,"end":5710.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5713.14659375,"end":5721.280343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5721.280343750001,"end":5723.575343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5721.63471875,"end":5722.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5723.659718750001,"end":5743.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5726.41034375,"end":5726.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5729.059718750001,"end":5729.937218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5743.859093749999,"end":5744.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5744.669093750001,"end":5747.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5748.48284375,"end":5753.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5753.12346875,"end":5755.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5753.8153437500005,"end":5755.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5755.5028437500005,"end":5757.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5757.66284375,"end":5759.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5760.10971875,"end":5760.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5760.599093750001,"end":5761.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5761.122218750001,"end":5767.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5767.88909375,"end":5770.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5771.145968750001,"end":5787.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5788.206593750001,"end":5790.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5791.260968750001,"end":5802.044093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5802.66846875,"end":5802.702218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5802.702218750001,"end":5809.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5802.76971875,"end":5804.423468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5809.23284375,"end":5811.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5811.94971875,"end":5835.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5812.05096875,"end":5814.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5815.93221875,"end":5816.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5818.5478437500005,"end":5818.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5818.9697187500005,"end":5819.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5835.62534375,"end":5846.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5846.93159375,"end":5851.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5851.960343750001,"end":5852.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5852.432843750001,"end":5891.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5876.142218750001,"end":5876.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5876.192843750001,"end":5876.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5876.850968750001,"end":5876.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5891.751593750001,"end":5891.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5892.747218750001,"end":5908.491593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5908.79534375,"end":5924.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5925.180968750001,"end":5929.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5929.80471875,"end":5935.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5935.50846875,"end":5953.952843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5946.831593750001,"end":5946.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5953.952843749999,"end":5954.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5954.27346875,"end":5955.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5956.97346875,"end":5971.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5960.6522187499995,"end":5961.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5972.16096875,"end":5973.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5973.7303437499995,"end":5980.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5973.983468750001,"end":5974.405343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5980.42971875,"end":5980.767218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5980.767218750001,"end":5981.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5981.3240937499995,"end":5995.718468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5984.04096875,"end":5984.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5994.33471875,"end":5994.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5995.026593750001,"end":5996.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6005.91096875,"end":6007.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6008.07096875,"end":6010.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6011.36159375,"end":6013.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6013.47096875,"end":6013.6903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6018.76971875,"end":6022.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6026.17784375,"end":6026.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6027.173468750001,"end":6058.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6028.08471875,"end":6028.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6059.13471875,"end":6091.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6070.93034375,"end":6071.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6073.09034375,"end":6074.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6075.77346875,"end":6076.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6091.38284375,"end":6091.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6091.450343750001,"end":6096.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6097.204718750001,"end":6102.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6102.72284375,"end":6125.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6105.89534375,"end":6106.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6107.31284375,"end":6107.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6111.042218750001,"end":6111.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6115.88534375,"end":6116.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6117.927218750001,"end":6118.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6118.09596875,"end":6118.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6125.335343750001,"end":6125.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6126.415343750001,"end":6130.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6130.060343749999,"end":6134.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6134.54909375,"end":6134.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6134.58284375,"end":6134.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6134.63346875,"end":6134.937218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6134.937218749999,"end":6137.670968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6136.84409375,"end":6136.860968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6136.860968750001,"end":6137.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6138.05909375,"end":6142.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6142.497218750001,"end":6142.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6142.83471875,"end":6156.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6147.67784375,"end":6149.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6149.382218750001,"end":6149.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6156.638468749999,"end":6165.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6166.1053437499995,"end":6200.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6179.87534375,"end":6180.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6180.0272187499995,"end":6180.685343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6195.80534375,"end":6196.075343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6200.44596875,"end":6200.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6200.614718750001,"end":6269.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6206.21721875,"end":6206.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6206.31846875,"end":6206.335343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6213.43971875,"end":6213.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6215.68409375,"end":6216.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6218.198468750001,"end":6218.282843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6218.31659375,"end":6218.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6236.27159375,"end":6236.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6259.42409375,"end":6259.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6259.542218750001,"end":6259.812218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6269.49846875,"end":6311.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6278.69534375,"end":6278.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6311.702843749999,"end":6364.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6347.747843749999,"end":6348.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6364.65659375,"end":6364.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6364.89284375,"end":6375.372218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6375.52409375,"end":6385.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6382.42596875,"end":6382.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6383.72534375,"end":6384.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6385.17659375,"end":6390.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6390.357218749999,"end":6408.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6408.700343750001,"end":6411.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6411.265343749999,"end":6412.345343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6412.51409375,"end":6415.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6415.61909375,"end":6417.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6418.52159375,"end":6420.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6421.305968750001,"end":6429.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6429.91221875,"end":6435.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6435.700343750001,"end":6440.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6440.83034375,"end":6472.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6452.575343750001,"end":6452.946593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6462.548468750001,"end":6463.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6469.214093750001,"end":6469.635968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6472.302218750001,"end":6474.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":6472.622843749999,"end":6473.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6479.03534375,"end":6480.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6480.94221875,"end":6483.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6489.81846875,"end":6491.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6497.243468750001,"end":6498.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6498.47534375,"end":6501.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6502.491593750001,"end":6505.343468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6506.06909375,"end":6512.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6508.75221875,"end":6508.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6508.85346875,"end":6508.954718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6513.173468750001,"end":6514.8778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6515.26596875,"end":6517.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6517.5272187499995,"end":6519.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6520.19346875,"end":6522.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6522.85971875,"end":6525.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6525.829718750001,"end":6528.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":6526.70721875,"end":6527.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6528.968468749999,"end":6529.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6529.812218749999,"end":6530.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6530.97659375,"end":6531.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6531.179093750001,"end":6533.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6533.845343750001,"end":6535.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6536.46096875,"end":6537.743468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6538.31721875,"end":6538.401593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6538.401593750001,"end":6540.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6541.388468749999,"end":6542.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6543.5653437500005,"end":6546.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6547.159718750001,"end":6550.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6550.88909375,"end":6551.378468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6551.5809687500005,"end":6553.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6554.21346875,"end":6557.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6557.13284375,"end":6557.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6557.55471875,"end":6557.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6558.61784375,"end":6559.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6560.5584687499995,"end":6561.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6562.65096875,"end":6564.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6564.20346875,"end":6564.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6564.591593749999,"end":6567.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6568.169093750001,"end":6571.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6571.66221875,"end":6572.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6572.97846875,"end":6573.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6573.99096875,"end":6574.345343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6574.716593749999,"end":6575.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6576.20159375,"end":6577.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6577.99034375,"end":6579.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6578.564093750001,"end":6580.437218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6581.1122187500005,"end":6590.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6590.477843750001,"end":6594.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6594.831593750001,"end":6596.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6596.77221875,"end":6601.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6602.155343750001,"end":6610.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6611.11596875,"end":6616.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6614.22096875,"end":6615.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6616.85346875,"end":6617.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6617.427218750001,"end":6618.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6619.28346875,"end":6622.860968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6622.8778437500005,"end":6622.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6622.911593750001,"end":6623.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6623.77221875,"end":6626.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6627.0965937500005,"end":6629.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6629.982218749999,"end":6630.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6630.11721875,"end":6632.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6633.34034375,"end":6635.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6635.989718750001,"end":6637.305968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6637.862843750001,"end":6639.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6640.83284375,"end":6641.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6641.9803437499995,"end":6642.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6642.95909375,"end":6643.954718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6644.17409375,"end":6646.587218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6646.97534375,"end":6647.937218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6648.510968750001,"end":6650.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6651.66659375,"end":6653.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6653.708468750001,"end":6654.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6654.231593750001,"end":6657.218468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6657.319718750001,"end":6657.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6657.5897187499995,"end":6659.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6660.374093750001,"end":6661.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6662.044718749999,"end":6662.095343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6662.095343750001,"end":6663.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6664.170968750001,"end":6665.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6666.3309687500005,"end":6666.735968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6667.157843750001,"end":6669.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6670.077218750001,"end":6672.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6672.52409375,"end":6675.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6675.561593750001,"end":6677.856593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6677.890343749999,"end":6679.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6678.61596875,"end":6684.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6684.15096875,"end":6684.1678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6684.1678437499995,"end":6684.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6684.184718750001,"end":6684.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6684.25221875,"end":6684.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6684.48846875,"end":6684.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6684.52221875,"end":6686.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6686.12534375,"end":6686.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6686.22659375,"end":6686.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6686.26034375,"end":6686.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6686.5809687500005,"end":6688.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6689.2303437499995,"end":6690.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6690.225968750001,"end":6690.360968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6690.360968750001,"end":6690.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6690.44534375,"end":6690.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6690.66471875,"end":6692.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6693.044093750001,"end":6697.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6698.35971875,"end":6702.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6699.70971875,"end":6701.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6702.24096875,"end":6704.282843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6705.63284375,"end":6707.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6707.50596875,"end":6707.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6708.974093750001,"end":6709.1259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6709.1259687500005,"end":6711.2353437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6711.38721875,"end":6712.062218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6714.458468750001,"end":6714.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6715.08284375,"end":6716.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6716.044718749999,"end":6726.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6719.200343750001,"end":6720.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6723.233468750001,"end":6723.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6727.55346875,"end":6729.089093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6729.747218750001,"end":6730.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6731.097218750001,"end":6731.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6732.10971875,"end":6733.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6733.13909375,"end":6733.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6733.679093750001,"end":6733.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6733.780343750001,"end":6735.923468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6736.260968750001,"end":6736.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6737.2059687500005,"end":6739.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6740.108468750001,"end":6741.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6742.589093750001,"end":6744.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6742.70721875,"end":6742.724093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6742.724093750001,"end":6743.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6744.782843750001,"end":6744.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6744.7997187500005,"end":6745.390343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6745.390343749999,"end":6746.892218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6745.4072187500005,"end":6746.014718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6747.82034375,"end":6748.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6747.921593749999,"end":6753.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6753.54096875,"end":6754.671593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6754.671593749999,"end":6758.232218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6758.232218749999,"end":6760.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6759.835343750001,"end":6761.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6761.03346875,"end":6764.138468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6764.72909375,"end":6766.3153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6767.378468750001,"end":6768.171593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6768.89721875,"end":6769.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6769.84221875,"end":6771.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6771.81659375,"end":6772.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6772.440968750001,"end":6775.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6776.11971875,"end":6777.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6778.78596875,"end":6779.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6780.0009687500005,"end":6781.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6783.07221875,"end":6785.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6788.185343749999,"end":6788.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6788.21909375,"end":6789.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6788.26971875,"end":6788.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6791.12159375,"end":6791.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6791.290343750001,"end":6792.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6792.57284375,"end":6797.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6797.669093750001,"end":6800.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6799.18784375,"end":6801.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6801.98909375,"end":6803.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6803.760968750001,"end":6804.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6804.975968750001,"end":6808.772843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6809.059718750001,"end":6809.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6809.07659375,"end":6809.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6809.8865937499995,"end":6812.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6812.2997187500005,"end":6812.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6812.31659375,"end":6812.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6812.36721875,"end":6814.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6814.206593750001,"end":6817.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6817.14284375,"end":6821.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6821.7665937500005,"end":6821.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6821.96909375,"end":6822.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6822.036593750001,"end":6823.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6825.25971875,"end":6826.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6827.099093750001,"end":6829.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6830.35596875,"end":6831.739718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6832.19534375,"end":6834.979718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6836.12721875,"end":6837.3084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6837.91596875,"end":6838.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6839.805968750001,"end":6843.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6845.425343750001,"end":6847.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6847.214093750001,"end":6848.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6849.47534375,"end":6852.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6853.204718750001,"end":6855.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6858.216593749999,"end":6860.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6861.30471875,"end":6864.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6864.544718749999,"end":6864.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6864.595343750001,"end":6864.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6864.84846875,"end":6866.249093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6866.26596875,"end":6866.282843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6866.282843750001,"end":6866.704718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6866.78909375,"end":6869.100968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6869.32034375,"end":6869.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6869.35409375,"end":6869.387843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6869.69159375,"end":6871.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6870.029093749999,"end":6870.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6871.22721875,"end":6871.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6871.952843749999,"end":6873.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6873.48846875,"end":6873.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6874.214093750001,"end":6874.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6874.88909375,"end":6878.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6874.97346875,"end":6875.142218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6878.63534375,"end":6879.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6878.939093750001,"end":6881.234093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6881.97659375,"end":6882.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6883.61346875,"end":6886.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6887.241593750001,"end":6890.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6891.409718750001,"end":6892.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6892.489718750001,"end":6893.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6894.95346875,"end":6897.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6898.22721875,"end":6901.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6901.60221875,"end":6902.749718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6903.374093750001,"end":6905.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6906.732218749999,"end":6911.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6912.58784375,"end":6914.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6914.612843750001,"end":6916.637843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6917.295968750001,"end":6918.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6918.15659375,"end":6919.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6920.16471875,"end":6921.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6922.5272187499995,"end":6924.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6925.210343750001,"end":6925.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6926.17221875,"end":6928.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6928.70346875,"end":6931.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6931.909718750001,"end":6934.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6935.45346875,"end":6939.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6940.04346875,"end":6942.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6942.70971875,"end":6944.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6945.089093750001,"end":6948.919718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6949.22346875,"end":6950.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6951.01221875,"end":6952.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6953.86409375,"end":6955.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6956.04096875,"end":6957.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6957.5428437499995,"end":6959.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6960.327218750001,"end":6963.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":6964.073468750001,"end":6964.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6964.66409375,"end":6968.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6969.979718750001,"end":6971.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6972.544718749999,"end":6974.4178437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6974.856593750001,"end":6976.4090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6977.11784375,"end":6979.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6979.83471875,"end":6980.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6982.534718750001,"end":6985.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6986.2303437499995,"end":6988.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6989.13284375,"end":6990.735968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6991.866593750001,"end":6993.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6994.347218750001,"end":6995.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6997.36784375,"end":6998.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":6999.038468750001,"end":7001.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7001.53596875,"end":7003.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7003.814093750001,"end":7004.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7004.21909375,"end":7005.9403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7006.46346875,"end":7008.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7008.792218750001,"end":7011.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7012.487843750001,"end":7014.884093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7015.4072187500005,"end":7016.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7017.3309687500005,"end":7018.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7018.64721875,"end":7019.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7020.53721875,"end":7021.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7021.38096875,"end":7023.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7023.642218750001,"end":7026.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7027.69221875,"end":7031.944718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7032.602843750001,"end":7035.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7036.12971875,"end":7040.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7040.702843750001,"end":7043.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7042.23846875,"end":7042.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7043.08221875,"end":7043.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7043.655968750001,"end":7046.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7046.845343750001,"end":7048.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7048.78596875,"end":7050.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7050.979718750001,"end":7052.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7053.34221875,"end":7054.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7055.26596875,"end":7057.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7058.202218750001,"end":7059.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7060.14284375,"end":7061.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7061.999093750001,"end":7063.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7064.3447187500005,"end":7067.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7067.989718750001,"end":7070.4872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7071.314093750001,"end":7074.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7075.27971875,"end":7076.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7077.33846875,"end":7078.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7078.70534375,"end":7084.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7084.206593750001,"end":7084.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7084.965968750001,"end":7090.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7090.720343750001,"end":7095.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7095.647843750001,"end":7104.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7104.692843750001,"end":7109.704718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7109.92409375,"end":7114.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7114.767218750001,"end":7115.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7115.6278437500005,"end":7120.015343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7119.57659375,"end":7122.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7122.968468750001,"end":7124.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7123.00221875,"end":7123.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7124.892218750001,"end":7127.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7127.74409375,"end":7145.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7145.54721875,"end":7149.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7151.0653437500005,"end":7154.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7154.895968750001,"end":7156.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7156.60034375,"end":7157.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7157.03909375,"end":7161.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7157.07284375,"end":7157.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7161.34221875,"end":7161.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7162.354718750001,"end":7165.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7165.577843750001,"end":7166.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7166.2528437500005,"end":7166.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7167.788468750001,"end":7177.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7177.84596875,"end":7188.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7183.19534375,"end":7183.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7188.25784375,"end":7188.274718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7188.274718750001,"end":7188.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7188.29159375,"end":7189.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7190.282843750001,"end":7195.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7195.41284375,"end":7199.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7199.26034375,"end":7201.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7202.567843750001,"end":7204.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7204.964093750001,"end":7206.651593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7209.06471875,"end":7210.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7210.60034375,"end":7211.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7211.9334687499995,"end":7213.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7213.60409375,"end":7214.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7218.092843750001,"end":7218.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7218.80159375,"end":7218.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7218.86909375,"end":7237.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7237.80284375,"end":7238.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7239.507218750001,"end":7241.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7241.81909375,"end":7243.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7243.675343750001,"end":7245.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7245.970343750001,"end":7249.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7249.56471875,"end":7261.579718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7255.55534375,"end":7255.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7261.88346875,"end":7262.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7263.452843750001,"end":7265.5790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7266.15284375,"end":7273.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7273.864718750001,"end":7278.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7279.46721875,"end":7281.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7281.880343750001,"end":7283.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7283.905343750001,"end":7291.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7292.0897187499995,"end":7294.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7295.36346875,"end":7295.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7296.224093750001,"end":7299.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7299.936593750001,"end":7303.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7304.155343750001,"end":7307.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7307.327843750001,"end":7308.694718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7309.08284375,"end":7311.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7312.23846875,"end":7321.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7321.772843750001,"end":7331.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7331.67846875,"end":7341.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7341.48284375,"end":7343.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7343.74409375,"end":7357.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7358.12159375,"end":7358.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7358.96534375,"end":7361.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7361.17596875,"end":7362.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7362.20534375,"end":7362.272843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7362.67784375,"end":7370.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7370.96346875,"end":7381.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7380.919718749999,"end":7382.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7382.11784375,"end":7393.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7393.27221875,"end":7394.757218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7395.280343750001,"end":7398.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7398.72284375,"end":7400.0897187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7400.91659375,"end":7401.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7401.794093750001,"end":7403.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7404.15659375,"end":7406.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7406.92409375,"end":7410.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7410.38346875,"end":7410.889718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7411.27784375,"end":7411.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7412.138468749999,"end":7413.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7413.741593750001,"end":7415.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7415.78346875,"end":7417.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7417.70721875,"end":7420.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7420.45784375,"end":7453.448468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7453.9715937500005,"end":7455.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7455.20346875,"end":7463.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7463.32034375,"end":7468.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7468.75409375,"end":7469.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7468.80471875,"end":7469.294093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7469.749718750001,"end":7470.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7470.05346875,"end":7472.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7472.34846875,"end":7472.382218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7472.517218750001,"end":7481.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7481.241593750001,"end":7497.23909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7482.38909375,"end":7482.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7482.456593750001,"end":7483.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":7483.2665937500005,"end":7483.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7483.36784375,"end":7483.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7497.62721875,"end":7498.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7498.97721875,"end":7518.045968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7518.43409375,"end":7521.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7523.091593749999,"end":7523.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7524.30659375,"end":7525.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7527.02346875,"end":7533.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7533.655343750001,"end":7534.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7534.85346875,"end":7535.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7536.034718750001,"end":7536.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7536.06846875,"end":7539.983468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7540.32096875,"end":7543.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7544.4384687500005,"end":7546.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7546.69971875,"end":7568.704718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7568.78909375,"end":7580.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7581.05721875,"end":7581.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7581.597218750001,"end":7582.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7582.592843750001,"end":7582.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7583.2509687500005,"end":7583.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7583.26784375,"end":7585.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7585.765343750001,"end":7591.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7590.43971875,"end":7605.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7603.214093750001,"end":7605.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7605.39096875,"end":7609.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7609.84596875,"end":7612.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7612.83284375,"end":7614.4697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7614.58784375,"end":7626.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7621.97909375,"end":7622.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7623.599093750001,"end":7624.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7625.21909375,"end":7626.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7626.366593750001,"end":7642.532843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":7643.190968750001,"end":7644.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7644.034718750001,"end":7644.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7647.7303437499995,"end":7648.388468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7649.012843750001,"end":7649.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7649.0634687500005,"end":7650.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7651.071593750001,"end":7651.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7653.01221875,"end":7655.610968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":7655.91471875,"end":7656.184718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7658.2772187499995,"end":7660.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7661.21346875,"end":7662.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7663.778468750001,"end":7664.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7665.972218750001,"end":7666.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7671.10221875,"end":7673.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":7673.059718750001,"end":7673.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":7674.561593750001,"end":7675.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8013.42846875,"end":8014.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8017.073468750001,"end":8020.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8021.190968750001,"end":8021.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8033.67846875,"end":8040.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8041.120343750001,"end":8043.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8044.09034375,"end":8047.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8047.09409375,"end":8048.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8048.9334687499995,"end":8049.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8051.1103437500005,"end":8051.903468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8052.3759687500005,"end":8053.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8053.52346875,"end":8054.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8055.00846875,"end":8056.729718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8057.48909375,"end":8058.872843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8059.024718750001,"end":8060.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8060.93159375,"end":8063.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8063.88471875,"end":8067.4959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8068.50846875,"end":8071.107218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8071.74846875,"end":8073.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8073.840968750001,"end":8075.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8075.59596875,"end":8078.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8078.9540937500005,"end":8082.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8083.493468750001,"end":8084.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8084.387843750001,"end":8086.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8087.948468750001,"end":8089.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8090.007218750001,"end":8091.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8092.2684687500005,"end":8093.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8094.81659375,"end":8096.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8096.63909375,"end":8097.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8099.6259687500005,"end":8102.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8104.70534375,"end":8108.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8109.44721875,"end":8114.189093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8114.93159375,"end":8116.720343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8117.091593750001,"end":8118.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8119.55534375,"end":8121.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8122.626593750001,"end":8125.2928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8126.153468750001,"end":8128.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8129.747843750001,"end":8130.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8131.60409375,"end":8134.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8136.784718750001,"end":8137.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8138.40471875,"end":8139.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8139.9403437500005,"end":8141.897843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8143.298468750001,"end":8144.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8144.715968750001,"end":8145.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8146.302218750001,"end":8147.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8148.81659375,"end":8150.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8151.21284375,"end":8152.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8153.524718750001,"end":8154.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8156.005343750001,"end":8157.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8157.99659375,"end":8159.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8159.78534375,"end":8160.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8161.590968750001,"end":8163.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8164.1053437499995,"end":8164.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8165.91096875,"end":8169.404093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8171.64846875,"end":8172.779093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8173.31909375,"end":8174.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8175.25971875,"end":8176.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8176.727843750001,"end":8177.6053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8178.651593750001,"end":8181.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8182.83659375,"end":8186.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8187.02159375,"end":8188.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8188.70909375,"end":8190.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8190.76784375,"end":8191.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8191.88159375,"end":8193.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8193.88971875,"end":8195.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8196.134093749999,"end":8198.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8198.93534375,"end":8199.509093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8200.875968750002,"end":8201.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8202.15846875,"end":8203.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8204.43659375,"end":8206.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8212.671593750001,"end":8217.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8224.534718750001,"end":8225.665343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8226.67784375,"end":8227.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8228.348468750002,"end":8229.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8229.968468750001,"end":8230.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8233.883468750002,"end":8235.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8239.249718750001,"end":8240.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8263.262843750003,"end":8263.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8263.364093750002,"end":8263.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8264.106593750003,"end":8276.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8276.914718750002,"end":8276.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8276.94846875,"end":8276.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8277.640343750001,"end":8279.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8279.226593750001,"end":8289.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8290.97159375,"end":8291.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8315.085968750001,"end":8316.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8317.245968750001,"end":8317.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8317.43159375,"end":8317.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8318.27534375,"end":8320.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8322.22409375,"end":8324.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8325.93659375,"end":8327.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8341.680968750003,"end":8343.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8344.43159375,"end":8344.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8345.562218750001,"end":8347.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8347.688468750002,"end":8351.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8352.852218750002,"end":8354.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8355.29909375,"end":8355.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8356.68284375,"end":8357.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8359.450343750003,"end":8361.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8362.285343750002,"end":8364.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8365.339718750001,"end":8366.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8367.719093750002,"end":8369.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8370.38534375,"end":8371.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8373.70971875,"end":8374.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8375.312843750002,"end":8376.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8377.169093750003,"end":8378.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8378.687843750002,"end":8380.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8381.894093750001,"end":8382.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8382.855968750002,"end":8383.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8384.644718750002,"end":8385.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8386.433468750001,"end":8386.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8387.395343750002,"end":8388.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8389.656593750002,"end":8390.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8392.22159375,"end":8398.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8398.988468750002,"end":8400.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8401.80659375,"end":8405.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8407.274093750002,"end":8407.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8407.476593750001,"end":8411.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8411.914718750002,"end":8412.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8413.19721875,"end":8416.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8415.914093750001,"end":8417.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8418.37784375,"end":8419.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8420.132843750001,"end":8420.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8420.21721875,"end":8420.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8421.550343750001,"end":8422.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8422.52909375,"end":8423.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8423.49096875,"end":8423.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8424.621593750002,"end":8426.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8429.97096875,"end":8431.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8432.485343750002,"end":8433.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8432.940968750001,"end":8434.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8436.87284375,"end":8438.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8439.167843750001,"end":8439.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8440.34909375,"end":8444.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8444.972843750002,"end":8447.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8448.128468750001,"end":8449.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8450.42346875,"end":8451.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8452.16159375,"end":8453.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8455.097843750002,"end":8456.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8458.641593750002,"end":8461.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8462.25284375,"end":8465.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8466.87659375,"end":8468.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8470.133468750002,"end":8471.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8473.086593750002,"end":8474.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8475.65159375,"end":8476.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8478.11534375,"end":8479.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8479.97159375,"end":8481.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8482.90784375,"end":8484.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8485.472843750002,"end":8486.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8487.91971875,"end":8489.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8489.792843750001,"end":8493.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8493.82596875,"end":8500.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8500.67721875,"end":8502.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8502.60096875,"end":8504.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8504.44034375,"end":8508.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8510.565968750001,"end":8510.954093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8511.207218750002,"end":8512.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8512.371593750002,"end":8514.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8514.83534375,"end":8530.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8531.06909375,"end":8533.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8535.13596875,"end":8537.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8538.39284375,"end":8539.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8540.097218750001,"end":8541.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8543.28659375,"end":8547.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8548.58534375,"end":8551.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8553.175343750001,"end":8554.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8554.829093750002,"end":8557.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8558.00159375,"end":8572.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8572.530968750001,"end":8572.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8572.969718750002,"end":8573.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8574.235343750002,"end":8574.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8575.14659375,"end":8577.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8578.335968750001,"end":8580.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8580.293468750002,"end":8585.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8585.96346875,"end":8585.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8586.081593750001,"end":8621.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8622.531593750002,"end":8623.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8624.40471875,"end":8626.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8626.73346875,"end":8629.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8629.973468750002,"end":8638.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8637.837218750003,"end":8638.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8638.96784375,"end":8638.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8638.984718750002,"end":8639.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8639.035343750002,"end":8641.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8639.33909375,"end":8639.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8641.735343750002,"end":8650.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8650.476593750001,"end":8653.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8654.222843750002,"end":8655.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8656.31534375,"end":8656.872218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8657.46284375,"end":8658.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8659.504718750002,"end":8661.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8662.440968750001,"end":8662.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8663.082218750002,"end":8664.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8665.562843750002,"end":8668.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8669.22471875,"end":8669.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8669.899718750003,"end":8676.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8676.430343750002,"end":8677.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8677.81409375,"end":8678.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8680.530968750001,"end":8681.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8683.112843750001,"end":8685.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8685.94784375,"end":8688.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8688.175343750001,"end":8688.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8688.512843750003,"end":8688.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8688.52971875,"end":8689.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8689.035968750002,"end":8689.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8689.457843750002,"end":8689.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8689.62659375,"end":8689.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8689.64346875,"end":8689.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8689.710968750001,"end":8689.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8689.74471875,"end":8690.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8690.031593750002,"end":8690.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8691.145343750002,"end":8697.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8698.01346875,"end":8699.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8700.19034375,"end":8702.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8703.17721875,"end":8706.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8707.058468750001,"end":8708.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8707.429718750001,"end":8708.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8708.712218750003,"end":8709.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8708.72909375,"end":8709.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8709.25221875,"end":8709.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8709.285968750002,"end":8710.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8709.94409375,"end":8715.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8716.59284375,"end":8718.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8718.449093750001,"end":8719.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8720.254718750002,"end":8721.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8721.85784375,"end":8722.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8723.39346875,"end":8724.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8724.996593750002,"end":8727.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8727.93284375,"end":8729.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8730.19409375,"end":8730.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8730.582218750002,"end":8732.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8733.24846875,"end":8734.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8734.851593750001,"end":8736.269093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8737.14659375,"end":8739.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8740.403468750003,"end":8740.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8740.926593750002,"end":8742.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8741.297843750002,"end":8741.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8742.15846875,"end":8744.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8745.53346875,"end":8748.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8749.11096875,"end":8750.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8750.612843750001,"end":8750.882843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":8750.96721875,"end":8753.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8753.009093750003,"end":8754.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8755.18596875,"end":8755.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8756.82284375,"end":8758.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8758.98284375,"end":8763.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8775.18284375,"end":8777.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8778.23721875,"end":8778.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8783.114093750002,"end":8783.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8784.41346875,"end":8784.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8785.155968750001,"end":8785.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8785.206593750001,"end":8785.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8785.223468750002,"end":8785.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8785.44284375,"end":8837.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8799.36471875,"end":8799.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8838.379718750002,"end":8904.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8905.390343750001,"end":9099.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8951.762843750003,"end":8951.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8951.77971875,"end":8951.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":8951.813468750002,"end":8951.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8951.83034375,"end":8951.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8958.664718750002,"end":8958.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9099.28409375,"end":9100.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9099.70596875,"end":9115.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9115.500968750002,"end":9116.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9116.04096875,"end":9116.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9116.749718750001,"end":9127.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9117.914093750001,"end":9118.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9127.70159375,"end":9129.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9129.844718750002,"end":9130.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9130.48596875,"end":9137.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9135.61596875,"end":9135.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9137.489093750002,"end":9139.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9139.277843750002,"end":9143.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9143.496593750002,"end":9149.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9149.453468750002,"end":9160.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9160.65846875,"end":9163.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9163.98284375,"end":9172.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9172.72409375,"end":9177.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9178.10721875,"end":9184.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9185.144093750001,"end":9190.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9190.324718750002,"end":9203.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9204.195968750002,"end":9205.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9206.659718750001,"end":9213.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9221.18909375,"end":9224.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9224.41221875,"end":9225.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9229.559093750002,"end":9230.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9230.031593750002,"end":9249.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9232.79909375,"end":9233.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9235.53284375,"end":9235.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9247.88534375,"end":9247.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9249.89346875,"end":9260.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9261.26721875,"end":9262.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9263.089718750001,"end":9266.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9266.515343750001,"end":9268.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9269.097218750001,"end":9269.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9269.29971875,"end":9269.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9269.485343750002,"end":9269.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9269.535968750002,"end":9269.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9269.97471875,"end":9271.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9271.98284375,"end":9274.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9274.88534375,"end":9286.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9286.52909375,"end":9289.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9289.347218750001,"end":9290.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9291.08534375,"end":9293.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9293.937218750001,"end":9307.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9308.247218750003,"end":9319.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9319.95846875,"end":9334.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9334.352843750003,"end":9338.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9338.504093750002,"end":9345.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9346.165343750003,"end":9351.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9351.59909375,"end":9355.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9355.41284375,"end":9378.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9378.04221875,"end":9378.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9379.071593750003,"end":9384.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9384.82596875,"end":9388.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9388.656593750002,"end":9394.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9395.27159375,"end":9400.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9401.02596875,"end":9410.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9411.15096875,"end":9443.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9443.820968750002,"end":9448.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9449.38971875,"end":9453.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9453.55784375,"end":9456.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9455.954093750002,"end":9457.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9457.894718750002,"end":9457.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9458.55284375,"end":9461.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9462.315968750001,"end":9462.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9463.800968750002,"end":9466.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9466.72034375,"end":9468.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9467.20971875,"end":9470.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9470.652218750001,"end":9475.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9477.520343750002,"end":9481.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9481.688468750002,"end":9502.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9503.54159375,"end":9507.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9508.469093750002,"end":9509.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9510.257843750001,"end":9512.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9512.82284375,"end":9515.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9515.067218750002,"end":9516.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9517.227218750002,"end":9520.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9520.58534375,"end":9524.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9524.601593750001,"end":9526.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9526.660343750002,"end":9533.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9534.254093750002,"end":9535.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9535.53659375,"end":9539.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9540.49784375,"end":9544.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9545.61096875,"end":9550.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9550.74096875,"end":9551.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9552.31034375,"end":9554.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9554.74034375,"end":9557.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9556.765343750001,"end":9558.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9558.75659375,"end":9559.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9559.81971875,"end":9561.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9561.70971875,"end":9565.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9566.08034375,"end":9569.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9568.527218750001,"end":9568.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9569.72534375,"end":9573.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9573.859718750002,"end":9580.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9581.63909375,"end":9586.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9587.59596875,"end":9593.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9593.535968750002,"end":9597.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9597.737843750001,"end":9598.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9599.543468750002,"end":9601.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9602.46284375,"end":9603.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9603.57659375,"end":9604.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9604.909718750001,"end":9607.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9607.94721875,"end":9622.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9622.25721875,"end":9623.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9623.94471875,"end":9656.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9656.90159375,"end":9662.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9662.68971875,"end":9681.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9682.29846875,"end":9688.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9684.171593750001,"end":9684.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9688.778468750003,"end":9701.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9703.29096875,"end":9705.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9707.745968750001,"end":9709.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9710.04096875,"end":9710.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9711.10409375,"end":9713.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9714.36096875,"end":9715.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9716.53784375,"end":9719.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9720.368468750003,"end":9723.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9724.11471875,"end":9726.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9727.742843750002,"end":9730.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9730.965968750003,"end":9732.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9733.46346875,"end":9735.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9736.19721875,"end":9738.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9738.77909375,"end":9739.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9741.05721875,"end":9743.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9743.571593750003,"end":9745.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9745.934093750002,"end":9746.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9747.098468750002,"end":9748.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9749.39346875,"end":9750.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9759.636593750001,"end":9761.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9761.543468750002,"end":9762.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9766.656593750002,"end":9767.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9767.78721875,"end":9779.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9777.372218750003,"end":9778.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9779.66721875,"end":9780.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9780.02159375,"end":9815.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9794.85471875,"end":9794.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9794.88846875,"end":9794.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9816.84284375,"end":9826.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9826.59659375,"end":9830.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9830.309093750002,"end":9834.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9834.71346875,"end":9841.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9842.08784375,"end":9851.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9851.571593750003,"end":9857.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9857.612843750001,"end":9861.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9862.55721875,"end":9864.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9865.03784375,"end":9866.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9866.742218750001,"end":9881.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9881.38971875,"end":9885.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9886.01346875,"end":9889.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9889.118468750003,"end":9889.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9889.48971875,"end":9893.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9893.60721875,"end":9906.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":9895.73346875,"end":9896.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9906.63471875,"end":9909.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9907.00596875,"end":9908.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9909.452843750001,"end":9913.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9913.80659375,"end":9916.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9916.962218750003,"end":9919.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9919.797218750002,"end":9922.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9922.29471875,"end":9922.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9923.08784375,"end":9938.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9934.410968750002,"end":9934.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9937.65096875,"end":9938.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9938.34284375,"end":9940.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9939.96284375,"end":9941.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9942.34221875,"end":9952.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9952.804718750001,"end":9977.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9978.20159375,"end":9986.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9987.347843750002,"end":9993.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9993.878468750001,"end":10028.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9994.047218750002,"end":9994.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10028.40471875,"end":10028.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10028.65784375,"end":10040.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10040.706593750001,"end":10048.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10047.28784375,"end":10047.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10049.07659375,"end":10053.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10053.83534375,"end":10064.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10064.95596875,"end":10072.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10072.85346875,"end":10083.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10078.06784375,"end":10078.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10082.03346875,"end":10083.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10083.51846875,"end":10084.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10084.29471875,"end":10084.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10085.83034375,"end":10086.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10088.445968750002,"end":10093.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10099.33034375,"end":10099.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10103.481593750003,"end":10106.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10106.417843750001,"end":10106.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10106.519093750001,"end":10106.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10106.535968750002,"end":10106.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10107.160343750002,"end":10108.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10110.805343750002,"end":10114.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10111.39596875,"end":10112.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10114.754093750002,"end":10143.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10146.83346875,"end":10149.837218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10149.921593750001,"end":10149.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10149.938468750002,"end":10161.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10161.56534375,"end":10167.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10168.382843750001,"end":10168.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10168.484093750001,"end":10170.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10169.969093750002,"end":10172.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10172.46659375,"end":10175.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10175.90909375,"end":10179.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10179.97596875,"end":10182.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10181.84909375,"end":10183.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10183.82346875,"end":10189.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10190.168468750002,"end":10204.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10205.355968750002,"end":10233.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10234.364093750002,"end":10235.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10236.051593750002,"end":10243.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10237.992218750001,"end":10238.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10243.544093750003,"end":10249.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10249.484093750001,"end":10255.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10255.559093750002,"end":10261.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10261.97159375,"end":10262.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10262.29221875,"end":10264.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10263.827843750001,"end":10266.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10265.29596875,"end":10273.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10273.547843750002,"end":10276.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10277.074718750002,"end":10289.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10289.37659375,"end":10291.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10291.92471875,"end":10291.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10291.941593750002,"end":10294.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10292.86971875,"end":10298.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10298.67471875,"end":10298.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10298.961593750002,"end":10299.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10299.13034375,"end":10302.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10303.16346875,"end":10305.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10306.555343750002,"end":10310.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10310.082218750002,"end":10314.351593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10314.58784375,"end":10328.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10328.23971875,"end":10333.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10333.977218750002,"end":10335.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10335.10784375,"end":10335.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10335.597218750001,"end":10336.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10336.74471875,"end":10337.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10339.191593750002,"end":10342.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10342.02659375,"end":10345.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10345.65471875,"end":10352.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10349.35034375,"end":10350.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10352.18534375,"end":10360.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10359.964718750001,"end":10363.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10364.11596875,"end":10368.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10368.149093750002,"end":10371.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10371.405968750001,"end":10375.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10375.75971875,"end":10379.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10379.489093750002,"end":10383.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10383.589718750001,"end":10385.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10385.26034375,"end":10387.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10387.21784375,"end":10410.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10411.61909375,"end":10422.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10422.01409375,"end":10427.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10427.835968750001,"end":10456.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10455.949718750002,"end":10457.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10457.87346875,"end":10457.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10457.940968750001,"end":10458.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10457.957843750002,"end":10457.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":10458.02534375,"end":10459.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10462.902218750001,"end":10465.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10465.88909375,"end":10467.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10467.559718750003,"end":10469.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10475.254718750002,"end":10475.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10484.519093750001,"end":10488.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10488.97409375,"end":10489.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10492.551593750002,"end":10492.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10492.58534375,"end":10493.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10493.15909375,"end":10493.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10493.800343750001,"end":10494.509093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10493.88471875,"end":10494.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10494.62721875,"end":10494.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10494.72846875,"end":10494.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10494.88034375,"end":10495.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10495.04909375,"end":10496.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10497.765968750002,"end":10498.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10499.11596875,"end":10501.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10501.883468750002,"end":10502.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10503.520343750002,"end":10505.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10505.832218750002,"end":10506.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10507.958468750003,"end":10508.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10509.055343750002,"end":10510.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10510.692218750002,"end":10512.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10513.645343750002,"end":10515.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10516.395968750003,"end":10517.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10517.62784375,"end":10520.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10520.496593750002,"end":10520.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10521.222218750001,"end":10528.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10529.187218750001,"end":10530.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10530.402218750001,"end":10533.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10533.28784375,"end":10536.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10537.371593750002,"end":10540.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10541.050343750001,"end":10542.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10543.429718750001,"end":10544.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10544.340968750003,"end":10545.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10546.602218750002,"end":10548.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10548.930968750003,"end":10550.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10551.495968750001,"end":10553.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10554.347843750002,"end":10555.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10556.929718750001,"end":10558.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10559.59596875,"end":10561.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10561.992218750001,"end":10564.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10566.008468750002,"end":10566.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10567.34159375,"end":10574.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10575.94784375,"end":10577.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10577.989718750003,"end":10578.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10579.289093750001,"end":10580.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10581.01034375,"end":10581.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10582.05659375,"end":10582.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10583.28846875,"end":10583.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10584.317843750003,"end":10585.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10585.718468750001,"end":10585.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10586.190968750001,"end":10587.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10587.945968750002,"end":10591.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10591.97909375,"end":10596.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10598.020343750002,"end":10599.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10600.66971875,"end":10602.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10602.964718750001,"end":10606.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10607.082218750002,"end":10609.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10610.727218750002,"end":10613.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10614.08534375,"end":10621.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10621.695968750002,"end":10623.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10624.547843750002,"end":10631.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10632.512843750003,"end":10635.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10636.32659375,"end":10637.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10638.97596875,"end":10641.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10642.620968750001,"end":10643.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10644.07221875,"end":10645.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10646.485343750002,"end":10646.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10647.632843750001,"end":10648.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10649.13471875,"end":10650.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10650.434093750002,"end":10653.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10654.61909375,"end":10655.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10656.644093750001,"end":10659.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10659.884093750003,"end":10660.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10660.407218750002,"end":10661.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10662.769718750002,"end":10663.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10665.11534375,"end":10666.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10666.887218750002,"end":10667.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10668.878468750001,"end":10672.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10673.485343750002,"end":10675.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10676.759093750003,"end":10677.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10677.99096875,"end":10685.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10686.512843750003,"end":10686.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10687.54221875,"end":10689.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10690.47846875,"end":10691.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10691.929718750001,"end":10692.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10693.07721875,"end":10695.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10695.08534375,"end":10695.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10695.102218750002,"end":10695.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10695.54096875,"end":10695.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10695.96284375,"end":10709.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10709.83409375,"end":10715.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10716.347843750002,"end":10729.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10729.999718750001,"end":10734.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10730.08409375,"end":10730.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10730.23596875,"end":10730.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10734.42096875,"end":10736.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10736.766593750002,"end":10740.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10741.62659375,"end":10755.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10750.840343750002,"end":10751.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10755.700343750003,"end":10761.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10762.821593750003,"end":10768.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10768.47471875,"end":10769.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10769.824718750002,"end":10773.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10774.094093750002,"end":10775.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10775.258468750002,"end":10781.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10781.55284375,"end":10782.632843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10782.76784375,"end":10785.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10785.56909375,"end":10786.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10787.18909375,"end":10790.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10790.445968750002,"end":10792.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10793.449718750002,"end":10793.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10794.52971875,"end":10814.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10813.429718750001,"end":10814.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10814.52659375,"end":10815.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10816.281593750002,"end":10819.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10820.41596875,"end":10821.884093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10822.52534375,"end":10822.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10823.79096875,"end":10827.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10828.48221875,"end":10829.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10830.692843750003,"end":10832.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10833.54471875,"end":10838.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10838.94471875,"end":10843.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10841.67846875,"end":10841.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10843.73721875,"end":10844.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10844.496593750002,"end":10844.547218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10844.547218750002,"end":10844.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10844.56409375,"end":10844.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10845.660968750002,"end":10845.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10845.67784375,"end":10848.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10849.238468750002,"end":10855.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10856.106593750003,"end":10856.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10856.157218750002,"end":10856.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10856.22471875,"end":10856.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10856.309093750002,"end":10859.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10859.160968750002,"end":10877.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10877.504093750002,"end":10881.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10881.300968750002,"end":10892.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10892.860343750002,"end":10894.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10894.598468750002,"end":10898.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10898.024093750002,"end":10908.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10898.78346875,"end":10899.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10900.42034375,"end":10901.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10905.128468750001,"end":10905.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10905.195968750002,"end":10905.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10905.53346875,"end":10905.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10905.550343750001,"end":10905.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10905.58409375,"end":10905.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10905.60096875,"end":10905.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10905.617843750002,"end":10905.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10905.85409375,"end":10908.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10909.00971875,"end":10911.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10913.835968750001,"end":10916.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10923.57284375,"end":10924.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10924.51784375,"end":10926.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10926.94784375,"end":10927.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10927.79159375,"end":10927.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10932.58409375,"end":10932.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10932.972218750001,"end":10951.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":10934.54159375,"end":10934.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10951.26471875,"end":10953.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10953.222218750001,"end":10969.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10969.253468750001,"end":10973.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10971.76784375,"end":10971.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10973.03346875,"end":10975.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10976.070968750002,"end":10978.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10978.500968750002,"end":10981.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10981.032218750002,"end":10981.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10981.04909375,"end":10982.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10981.082843750002,"end":10981.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10981.724093750003,"end":10982.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10982.399093750002,"end":10982.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10982.46659375,"end":10982.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10982.68596875,"end":10987.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10982.702843750001,"end":10984.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10985.84159375,"end":10987.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10987.090343750002,"end":10987.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10987.49534375,"end":10992.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10991.359718750002,"end":10991.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10992.102218750002,"end":11035.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11036.145968750003,"end":11069.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11068.00596875,"end":11117.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11118.15846875,"end":11121.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11123.524718750003,"end":11142.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11134.66221875,"end":11134.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11134.67909375,"end":11135.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11139.15096875,"end":11139.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11141.547218750002,"end":11141.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11142.40784375,"end":11142.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11143.20096875,"end":11147.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11145.73221875,"end":11146.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11147.16659375,"end":11147.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11147.402843750002,"end":11148.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11147.43659375,"end":11153.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11150.11971875,"end":11150.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11151.13221875,"end":11163.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":11154.54096875,"end":11154.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11163.50159375,"end":11171.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11171.719718750002,"end":11195.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11195.42909375,"end":11198.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11198.399093750002,"end":11198.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11198.989718750003,"end":11199.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11199.00659375,"end":11200.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11199.10784375,"end":11201.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11201.132843750001,"end":11201.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11201.200343750003,"end":11201.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11201.21721875,"end":11201.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11201.250968750002,"end":11201.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11201.284718750001,"end":11213.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11201.31846875,"end":11201.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11213.40096875,"end":11213.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11213.519093750001,"end":11218.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11218.024718750003,"end":11221.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11221.332218750002,"end":11226.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11223.930968750003,"end":11224.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11225.399093750002,"end":11225.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":11226.78284375,"end":11230.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11232.098468750002,"end":11234.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11236.739093750002,"end":11239.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11240.70471875,"end":11241.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":11256.887843750003,"end":11258.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11258.727218750002,"end":11259.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":11260.144718750002,"end":11260.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11264.70096875,"end":11265.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11265.03846875,"end":11265.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11265.375968750002,"end":11265.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11265.44346875,"end":11265.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11266.01721875,"end":11298.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11298.51846875,"end":11312.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11312.64284375,"end":11322.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11323.40909375,"end":11329.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11329.51784375,"end":11337.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11337.90471875,"end":11343.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11343.43971875,"end":11349.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11349.44721875,"end":11352.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11352.315968750001,"end":11354.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11355.10034375,"end":11357.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11357.327843750001,"end":11360.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11360.78721875,"end":11364.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11364.73596875,"end":11370.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11370.996593750002,"end":11379.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11380.26096875,"end":11415.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11391.567218750002,"end":11391.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11415.22596875,"end":11415.546593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11416.457843750002,"end":11435.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11424.844718750002,"end":11424.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":11424.86159375,"end":11424.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11424.878468750001,"end":11424.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11425.06409375,"end":11425.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":11425.114718750003,"end":11425.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11425.418468750002,"end":11425.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11435.695343750001,"end":11437.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11437.24784375,"end":11454.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11455.067843750003,"end":11476.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11476.70159375,"end":11483.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11483.19846875,"end":11511.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":11511.902843750002,"end":11527.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11512.324718750002,"end":11512.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11517.606593750003,"end":11517.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11523.05721875,"end":11523.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11524.05284375,"end":11525.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11525.031593750002,"end":11526.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11526.550343750001,"end":11526.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11526.85409375,"end":11527.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11527.242218750001,"end":11527.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11527.259093750003,"end":11527.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11527.562843750002,"end":11527.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11527.79909375,"end":11527.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11527.91721875,"end":11528.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11528.035343750002,"end":11528.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11529.081593750001,"end":11531.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11534.17784375,"end":11537.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11537.805968750003,"end":11540.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11541.012218750002,"end":11543.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11544.066593750002,"end":11546.243468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11556.773468750001,"end":11558.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11559.372218750003,"end":11559.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11559.405968750001,"end":11559.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11564.14784375,"end":11564.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11564.29971875,"end":11576.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11564.97471875,"end":11566.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11576.78721875,"end":11589.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11589.24096875,"end":11608.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11609.136593750001,"end":11617.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11617.77659375,"end":11619.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11619.86909375,"end":11620.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11620.03784375,"end":11621.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11621.15159375,"end":11621.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11621.35409375,"end":11621.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11621.387843750003,"end":11621.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11621.72534375,"end":11621.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11621.843468750001,"end":11626.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11626.16346875,"end":11630.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11630.719718750002,"end":11637.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11637.97596875,"end":11648.370968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11648.792843750001,"end":11649.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11650.227218750002,"end":11655.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11655.52596875,"end":11658.765968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11659.06971875,"end":11672.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11672.265968750002,"end":11677.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11676.974093750003,"end":11676.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11677.007843750001,"end":11677.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11677.024718750003,"end":11677.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11677.09221875,"end":11693.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11693.54534375,"end":11695.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11695.43534375,"end":11717.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11710.96034375,"end":11711.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11718.16596875,"end":11721.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11721.895343750002,"end":11726.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11726.856593750003,"end":11730.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11730.214718750001,"end":11738.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11738.73659375,"end":11742.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11742.364718750003,"end":11753.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11753.856593750003,"end":11755.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11755.797218750002,"end":11763.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11763.610343750002,"end":11768.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11768.48721875,"end":11770.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11770.815968750001,"end":11778.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11776.587218750003,"end":11777.903468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11778.02159375,"end":11794.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":11788.855343750001,"end":11788.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11794.508468750002,"end":11806.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11806.45596875,"end":11809.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11809.78034375,"end":11815.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11815.602218750002,"end":11816.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11815.855343750001,"end":11863.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11823.38159375,"end":11823.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11863.03784375,"end":11869.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11863.527218750001,"end":11863.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11864.35409375,"end":11866.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11867.40846875,"end":11867.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11867.712218750003,"end":11867.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11867.762843750003,"end":11867.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11867.847218750001,"end":11869.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11869.31534375,"end":11869.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11869.332218750002,"end":11869.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":11870.496593750002,"end":11870.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11870.614718750003,"end":11870.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":11870.749718750001,"end":11870.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_33","start":11870.800343750001,"end":11870.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11870.83409375,"end":11873.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":11870.85096875,"end":11871.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11877.17909375,"end":11879.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11899.36971875,"end":11900.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11901.884093750003,"end":11902.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11904.75284375,"end":11904.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11915.097218750001,"end":11915.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11916.227843750003,"end":11916.734093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11918.92784375,"end":11919.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11919.88971875,"end":11919.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11920.04159375,"end":11925.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11922.015968750002,"end":11922.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11922.03284375,"end":11922.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11922.04971875,"end":11922.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11922.94409375,"end":11923.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11923.58534375,"end":11923.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11928.344093750002,"end":11928.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11928.968468750001,"end":11938.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11938.33409375,"end":11938.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11938.587218750003,"end":11939.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11940.08909375,"end":11941.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11942.35034375,"end":11944.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11942.738468750002,"end":11942.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11942.82284375,"end":11943.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11943.44721875,"end":11943.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11945.13471875,"end":11945.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11946.51846875,"end":11947.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11948.020343750002,"end":11949.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11950.29846875,"end":11951.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11953.082843750002,"end":11954.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11955.32721875,"end":11959.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11956.238468750002,"end":11957.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11959.10721875,"end":11959.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11959.259093750003,"end":11962.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11959.343468750001,"end":11959.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11962.785968750002,"end":11962.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11962.85346875,"end":11964.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11962.92096875,"end":11962.988468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11965.249718750001,"end":11968.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11969.839718750001,"end":11973.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11973.34971875,"end":11973.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11974.04159375,"end":11974.446593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11974.446593750003,"end":11975.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11976.45471875,"end":11979.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11979.94784375,"end":11981.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11981.85471875,"end":11981.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11982.884093750003,"end":11984.149718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11985.01034375,"end":11987.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11987.86221875,"end":11988.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11989.11096875,"end":11989.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11990.207843750002,"end":11991.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11992.587218750003,"end":11992.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11992.97534375,"end":11994.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11994.96659375,"end":12000.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12001.395968750003,"end":12003.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12004.922843750002,"end":12005.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12005.95221875,"end":12009.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12010.457843750002,"end":12010.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12011.21721875,"end":12012.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12012.95534375,"end":12014.609093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12015.28409375,"end":12015.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12017.190968750001,"end":12021.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12022.35471875,"end":12022.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12022.894718750002,"end":12026.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12027.332843750002,"end":12029.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12030.437843750002,"end":12033.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12034.032218750002,"end":12034.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12034.58909375,"end":12035.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12036.79971875,"end":12040.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12041.187218750001,"end":12042.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12043.161593750003,"end":12043.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12044.730968750002,"end":12045.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12046.18221875,"end":12047.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12048.66284375,"end":12050.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12050.62034375,"end":12051.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12053.117843750002,"end":12053.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12054.434093750002,"end":12055.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12055.78409375,"end":12060.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12061.11659375,"end":12062.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12062.989718750003,"end":12066.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12066.617843750002,"end":12067.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12068.524718750003,"end":12069.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12070.12784375,"end":12072.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12073.08096875,"end":12074.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12075.375968750002,"end":12077.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12078.09284375,"end":12078.531593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12079.30784375,"end":12080.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12080.759093750003,"end":12089.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12089.83784375,"end":12091.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12092.234093750001,"end":12093.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12093.769718750002,"end":12094.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12095.828468750002,"end":12096.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12097.364093750002,"end":12100.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12100.33409375,"end":12100.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12101.17784375,"end":12101.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12101.19471875,"end":12102.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12102.055343750002,"end":12102.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12102.08909375,"end":12102.274718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12102.274718750003,"end":12102.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12102.325343750003,"end":12124.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12111.269093750001,"end":12112.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12125.055968750003,"end":12128.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12129.29159375,"end":12132.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12133.324718750002,"end":12136.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12136.24409375,"end":12137.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12138.690968750001,"end":12140.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12141.390968750002,"end":12142.335968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12143.247218750003,"end":12146.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12147.027218750001,"end":12148.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12149.524718750003,"end":12150.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12151.364093750002,"end":12152.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12153.59159375,"end":12154.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12156.848468750002,"end":12157.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12158.164718750002,"end":12161.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12162.19784375,"end":12163.125968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12163.530968750001,"end":12163.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12164.67846875,"end":12166.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12167.78346875,"end":12168.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12168.89721875,"end":12170.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12171.58034375,"end":12174.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12174.719093750002,"end":12175.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12175.12409375,"end":12175.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12175.79909375,"end":12176.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12177.469718750002,"end":12180.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12180.70971875,"end":12180.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12181.620968750001,"end":12183.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12184.01721875,"end":12185.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12185.67096875,"end":12186.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12186.46409375,"end":12186.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12186.599093750003,"end":12186.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12186.649718750003,"end":12186.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12186.71721875,"end":12186.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12186.76784375,"end":12187.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12187.898468750001,"end":12187.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12187.965968750003,"end":12188.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12188.03346875,"end":12190.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12191.30721875,"end":12191.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12192.437843750002,"end":12195.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12195.441593750002,"end":12195.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":12195.94784375,"end":12196.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12201.837218750003,"end":12203.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12209.363468750002,"end":12209.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12212.535968750002,"end":12212.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12213.109718750002,"end":12215.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12220.281593750002,"end":12230.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12231.300968750002,"end":12233.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12233.427218750003,"end":12234.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12234.051593750002,"end":12238.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12235.199093750001,"end":12236.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12236.987843750001,"end":12237.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12239.367218750001,"end":12240.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12240.09284375,"end":12240.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12240.227843750003,"end":12240.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12241.83096875,"end":12243.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12243.957218750002,"end":12244.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12244.04159375,"end":12246.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12246.82596875,"end":12248.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12249.37409375,"end":12249.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12250.25159375,"end":12250.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12250.57221875,"end":12251.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12251.972843750002,"end":12252.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12252.175343750001,"end":12260.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12260.96721875,"end":12261.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12261.18659375,"end":12265.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12265.30409375,"end":12267.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12267.632843750001,"end":12276.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12276.89721875,"end":12285.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12286.81971875,"end":12295.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12296.421593750001,"end":12298.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12299.121593750002,"end":12314.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12314.899718750003,"end":12329.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12330.10409375,"end":12334.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12334.187843750002,"end":12338.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12339.28409375,"end":12340.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12339.942218750002,"end":12340.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12340.465343750002,"end":12340.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12340.684718750003,"end":12340.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12340.80284375,"end":12340.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12340.95471875,"end":12340.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12340.97159375,"end":12348.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12349.30784375,"end":12351.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12351.737843750001,"end":12356.277218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12356.749718750001,"end":12357.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12358.774718750003,"end":12361.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12361.660343750002,"end":12363.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12363.398468750001,"end":12364.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12364.54596875,"end":12365.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12365.727218750002,"end":12366.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12366.874718750001,"end":12383.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12384.644093750001,"end":12396.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12396.743468750003,"end":12402.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12403.949093750001,"end":12406.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12404.03346875,"end":12404.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12406.598468750002,"end":12406.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12406.969718750002,"end":12412.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12412.032218750002,"end":12412.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12413.567843750003,"end":12423.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12413.83784375,"end":12414.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12423.33846875,"end":12429.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12429.177218750003,"end":12434.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12430.999718750001,"end":12434.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12434.56034375,"end":12434.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12434.644718750002,"end":12434.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12434.88096875,"end":12435.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12435.03284375,"end":12435.235343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12435.47159375,"end":12441.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12436.804718750001,"end":12438.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12438.171593750001,"end":12438.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12440.567843750003,"end":12441.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12441.563468750002,"end":12441.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12441.58034375,"end":12441.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12442.137218750002,"end":12444.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12444.094718750002,"end":12444.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12444.17909375,"end":12446.727218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12446.828468750002,"end":12447.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12446.895968750003,"end":12448.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12449.039093750001,"end":12452.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12452.97096875,"end":12453.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12453.274718750003,"end":12454.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12454.894718750002,"end":12456.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12456.29534375,"end":12456.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12457.004093750002,"end":12457.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12457.03784375,"end":12457.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12457.375343750002,"end":12457.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12457.72971875,"end":12459.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12459.78846875,"end":12469.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12470.16659375,"end":12471.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12471.077843750001,"end":12476.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12476.71409375,"end":12479.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12479.009093750003,"end":12479.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12479.24534375,"end":12486.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12487.480343750001,"end":12489.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12489.31971875,"end":12489.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12489.437843750002,"end":12491.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12492.32346875,"end":12492.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12493.032218750002,"end":12511.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12512.489093750002,"end":12514.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12514.109093750001,"end":12514.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12514.34534375,"end":12521.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12521.88846875,"end":12524.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12525.415343750003,"end":12528.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12528.503468750001,"end":12528.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12528.520343750002,"end":12528.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12528.53721875,"end":12529.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12528.55409375,"end":12531.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12531.102218750002,"end":12533.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12534.02159375,"end":12535.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12535.894718750002,"end":12541.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12541.88534375,"end":12545.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12546.35721875,"end":12555.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12556.87034375,"end":12560.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12561.19034375,"end":12569.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12569.813468750002,"end":12573.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":12573.79596875,"end":12573.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12573.84659375,"end":12575.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12576.20909375,"end":12582.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12583.313468750002,"end":12596.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12596.72909375,"end":12596.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12597.066593750002,"end":12604.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12604.47471875,"end":12612.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12612.473468750002,"end":12615.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12615.375968750002,"end":12624.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12623.67846875,"end":12626.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12629.027843750002,"end":12631.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12632.504093750002,"end":12635.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12635.828468750002,"end":12638.849093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12639.49034375,"end":12641.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12642.46034375,"end":12644.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12648.754718750002,"end":12649.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12649.649093750002,"end":12650.644718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12654.914093750001,"end":12656.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12656.93909375,"end":12659.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12661.883468750002,"end":12661.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12661.90034375,"end":12662.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12662.44034375,"end":12662.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12662.96346875,"end":12663.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12663.030968750001,"end":12667.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12668.65034375,"end":12671.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12671.70471875,"end":12672.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12671.92409375,"end":12671.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12671.99159375,"end":12672.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12673.645343750002,"end":12675.062843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12675.94034375,"end":12677.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12678.589718750001,"end":12679.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12680.31096875,"end":12681.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12681.289718750002,"end":12683.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12684.10784375,"end":12687.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12687.972218750001,"end":12691.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12691.85346875,"end":12692.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12693.54096875,"end":12696.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12697.219718750002,"end":12699.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12699.97034375,"end":12705.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12706.349093750003,"end":12708.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12708.62721875,"end":12717.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12719.22471875,"end":12722.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12722.71784375,"end":12724.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12724.60784375,"end":12725.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12725.519093750001,"end":12730.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12730.429718750001,"end":12743.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12743.659718750001,"end":12743.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12743.86221875,"end":12747.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12743.879093750002,"end":12743.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12747.996593750002,"end":12749.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12750.780968750001,"end":12755.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12755.50596875,"end":12758.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12758.47596875,"end":12767.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12767.571593750003,"end":12769.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12769.95096875,"end":12784.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12784.395968750003,"end":12787.298468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12787.534718750001,"end":12792.917843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12793.137218750002,"end":12797.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12797.929718750001,"end":12798.722843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12799.17846875,"end":12800.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12801.220343750003,"end":12802.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12803.042843750001,"end":12804.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12805.371593750002,"end":12807.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12807.98721875,"end":12808.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12808.493468750003,"end":12826.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12826.634093750003,"end":12828.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12828.844718750002,"end":12835.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12835.71284375,"end":12837.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12838.63221875,"end":12839.712218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12840.20159375,"end":12884.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12884.34659375,"end":12884.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12884.684093750002,"end":12886.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12886.962218750003,"end":12888.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12889.425968750002,"end":12897.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12897.458468750003,"end":12897.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12897.492218750001,"end":12897.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12897.67784375,"end":12905.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12906.469718750002,"end":12918.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12918.34971875,"end":12923.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12923.969093750002,"end":12926.399093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12926.972843750002,"end":12927.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12927.867218750001,"end":12941.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12941.60346875,"end":12942.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12942.953468750002,"end":12944.657843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12948.758468750002,"end":12950.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":12951.644093750001,"end":12954.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12958.96784375,"end":13019.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13020.274718750003,"end":13030.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13031.699093750001,"end":13033.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13035.985343750002,"end":13036.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13036.00221875,"end":13037.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13037.48721875,"end":13040.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13041.840968750003,"end":13042.245968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13043.427218750003,"end":13044.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13045.92471875,"end":13047.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13054.19346875,"end":13066.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13066.090343750002,"end":13067.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13067.06909375,"end":13067.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13068.503468750001,"end":13083.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13084.281593750002,"end":13098.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13098.28784375,"end":13106.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13107.83909375,"end":13117.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13117.94721875,"end":13121.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":13122.942218750002,"end":13123.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13123.313468750002,"end":13123.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13125.06846875,"end":13125.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13125.96284375,"end":13126.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13128.409718750001,"end":13132.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13132.847843750002,"end":13134.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13135.41284375,"end":13136.610968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13137.167843750001,"end":13139.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13140.964718750001,"end":13144.710968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13145.43659375,"end":13146.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13146.85409375,"end":13151.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13152.051593750002,"end":13154.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13154.144093750001,"end":13155.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13156.45596875,"end":13159.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13159.375343750002,"end":13160.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13160.82659375,"end":13165.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13165.905968750001,"end":13173.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13174.259093750003,"end":13175.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13175.86221875,"end":13176.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13177.161593750003,"end":13180.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13181.144093750001,"end":13182.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13182.730343750001,"end":13183.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13183.844093750002,"end":13189.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13190.965343750002,"end":13192.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13193.277218750001,"end":13200.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13200.989093750002,"end":13201.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13202.575343750003,"end":13203.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13205.07284375,"end":13206.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13206.743468750003,"end":13207.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13208.903468750003,"end":13212.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13212.548468750003,"end":13213.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13213.45971875,"end":13214.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13215.02909375,"end":13216.851593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13217.83034375,"end":13218.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13219.14659375,"end":13222.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13222.605968750002,"end":13225.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13225.812218750001,"end":13227.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13227.735968750003,"end":13230.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13232.07284375,"end":13235.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13236.409718750001,"end":13237.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13237.33784375,"end":13238.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13239.160343750002,"end":13239.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13239.19409375,"end":13239.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13239.46409375,"end":13240.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13240.98284375,"end":13241.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13241.97846875,"end":13243.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13244.10471875,"end":13245.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13249.36971875,"end":13251.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13252.305968750003,"end":13254.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13254.70221875,"end":13256.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13257.267218750003,"end":13262.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13263.730343750001,"end":13268.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13269.434093750002,"end":13271.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13271.745968750001,"end":13278.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13279.778468750003,"end":13283.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13283.828468750002,"end":13288.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13289.481593750003,"end":13293.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13294.847843750002,"end":13296.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13296.653468750003,"end":13298.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13299.269093750001,"end":13301.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13301.78346875,"end":13303.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13304.11221875,"end":13306.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13307.470343750003,"end":13313.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13314.102218750002,"end":13316.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13317.156593750002,"end":13318.641593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13318.793468750002,"end":13321.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13322.50596875,"end":13323.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13323.46784375,"end":13324.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13327.56846875,"end":13333.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13334.06534375,"end":13334.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13335.077843750001,"end":13353.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13354.112843750001,"end":13378.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13380.35346875,"end":13381.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13383.188468750002,"end":13384.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13385.11221875,"end":13387.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13387.930343750002,"end":13389.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13390.05659375,"end":13391.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13391.777843750002,"end":13393.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13394.579093750002,"end":13395.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13396.33409375,"end":13397.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13398.07221875,"end":13398.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13398.93284375,"end":13400.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13401.14346875,"end":13401.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13402.13909375,"end":13404.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13404.51846875,"end":13405.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13406.610968750003,"end":13407.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13407.57284375,"end":13411.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13411.99409375,"end":13414.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13415.099093750003,"end":13417.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13418.001593750003,"end":13421.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13423.148468750001,"end":13424.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13424.76846875,"end":13426.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13426.72596875,"end":13427.789093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13429.122218750003,"end":13430.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13430.97846875,"end":13431.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13431.113468750002,"end":13432.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13433.340968750003,"end":13435.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13435.703468750002,"end":13437.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13437.32346875,"end":13440.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13440.47909375,"end":13441.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13441.727843750003,"end":13444.579718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13445.355968750002,"end":13448.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13449.422843750002,"end":13454.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13454.907218750002,"end":13461.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13461.640343750001,"end":13483.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13483.61159375,"end":13490.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13490.969093750002,"end":13490.985968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13490.985968750003,"end":13492.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13493.88846875,"end":13494.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13496.520968750003,"end":13497.735968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13502.96721875,"end":13503.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13504.620968750001,"end":13506.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13508.907218750002,"end":13510.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13510.965968750003,"end":13510.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13510.999718750001,"end":13511.050343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13511.050343750001,"end":13511.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13511.08409375,"end":13511.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13511.50596875,"end":13513.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13513.395968750003,"end":13515.134093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13514.610968750003,"end":13516.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13517.125343750002,"end":13517.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13518.407843750003,"end":13520.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13520.500343750002,"end":13521.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13522.54221875,"end":13524.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13525.714718750001,"end":13529.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13531.43534375,"end":13532.582843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13532.97096875,"end":13535.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13537.34159375,"end":13539.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13540.547843750002,"end":13543.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13544.277218750001,"end":13545.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13546.302218750003,"end":13549.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13550.43659375,"end":13554.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13555.90409375,"end":13558.097843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13558.75596875,"end":13561.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13562.67096875,"end":13564.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13564.544093750003,"end":13565.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13565.94471875,"end":13567.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13568.94846875,"end":13571.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13572.340343750002,"end":13573.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13575.00659375,"end":13576.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13576.54221875,"end":13579.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13580.474093750003,"end":13582.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13582.954718750003,"end":13586.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13587.375968750002,"end":13588.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13588.624718750001,"end":13589.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13590.46409375,"end":13593.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13594.21034375,"end":13597.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13598.09159375,"end":13599.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13601.196593750003,"end":13603.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13603.64346875,"end":13606.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13608.570968750002,"end":13613.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13614.71346875,"end":13616.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13617.649718750003,"end":13620.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13621.63221875,"end":13625.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13625.73284375,"end":13630.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13632.027218750001,"end":13633.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13633.579718750003,"end":13634.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13635.739718750003,"end":13636.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13636.60034375,"end":13642.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13642.55721875,"end":13644.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13644.700343750003,"end":13651.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13652.564093750003,"end":13653.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13653.762218750002,"end":13655.939093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13657.06971875,"end":13659.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13660.00596875,"end":13660.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13660.630343750003,"end":13661.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13662.21659375,"end":13664.460968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13665.000968750002,"end":13665.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13665.102218750002,"end":13666.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13666.85721875,"end":13669.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13670.535968750002,"end":13671.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13671.852218750002,"end":13673.742218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13673.843468750001,"end":13677.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13678.66971875,"end":13679.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13680.019718750002,"end":13681.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13683.242843750002,"end":13684.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13684.15409375,"end":13686.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13684.187843750002,"end":13685.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13686.21284375,"end":13686.297218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13686.297218750002,"end":13686.820343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13686.989093750002,"end":13688.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13689.351593750001,"end":13691.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13691.49471875,"end":13698.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13698.98721875,"end":13703.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13703.661593750003,"end":13703.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13704.117218750001,"end":13706.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13705.112843750001,"end":13706.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":13706.93534375,"end":13706.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13706.95221875,"end":13706.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13707.05346875,"end":13710.563468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13711.019093750001,"end":13715.845343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13716.419093750003,"end":13720.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13720.536593750003,"end":13725.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13725.531593750002,"end":13728.501593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13726.965968750003,"end":13727.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13728.585968750001,"end":13734.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13734.05346875,"end":13734.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13734.15471875,"end":13737.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13739.250968750002,"end":13740.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13745.477843750003,"end":13750.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13749.477218750002,"end":13749.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13752.430343750002,"end":13755.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13755.974093750003,"end":13756.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13756.277843750002,"end":13757.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13759.399718750003,"end":13761.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13761.42471875,"end":13762.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13763.500343750002,"end":13764.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13766.031593750002,"end":13766.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13767.11159375,"end":13767.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13768.47846875,"end":13770.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13771.364093750002,"end":13773.473468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13775.110343750002,"end":13779.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13780.30784375,"end":13780.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13782.282218750002,"end":13783.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13784.965343750002,"end":13788.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13789.454093750002,"end":13792.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13793.470343750003,"end":13794.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13794.38159375,"end":13795.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13796.28846875,"end":13797.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13798.954718750003,"end":13799.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13800.625343750002,"end":13801.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13801.87409375,"end":13802.751593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13802.86971875,"end":13805.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13806.86909375,"end":13808.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13809.87284375,"end":13810.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13810.969718750002,"end":13813.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13814.749718750001,"end":13815.407843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13816.36971875,"end":13817.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13817.871593750002,"end":13819.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13820.470343750003,"end":13821.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13824.351593750001,"end":13825.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13826.460968750001,"end":13827.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13828.688468750002,"end":13829.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13830.831593750001,"end":13832.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13834.61159375,"end":13835.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13835.50596875,"end":13836.501593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13838.83034375,"end":13839.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13840.433468750001,"end":13840.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13840.46721875,"end":13846.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13847.132843750001,"end":13849.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13849.44471875,"end":13852.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13853.02221875,"end":13854.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13854.43971875,"end":13855.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13856.937218750001,"end":13857.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13859.14784375,"end":13860.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13861.98284375,"end":13862.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13863.754718750002,"end":13864.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13865.15534375,"end":13865.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13870.26846875,"end":13871.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13872.917843750001,"end":13873.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13874.41971875,"end":13877.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13877.929718750001,"end":13880.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":13884.49409375,"end":13884.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13891.024718750003,"end":13891.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13892.340968750003,"end":13894.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13894.855343750001,"end":13895.142218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13895.68221875,"end":13896.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13898.972843750002,"end":13899.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13901.132843750001,"end":13902.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13903.039718750002,"end":13908.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13908.574718750002,"end":13909.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13911.426593750002,"end":13916.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13918.649093750002,"end":13919.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13923.441593750002,"end":13926.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13934.17409375,"end":13936.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13936.85721875,"end":13939.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13940.13096875,"end":13942.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13943.286593750003,"end":13946.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13946.62784375,"end":13948.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13949.192843750003,"end":13950.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13951.09971875,"end":13953.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13956.60096875,"end":13957.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13959.75659375,"end":13962.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13962.254093750002,"end":13963.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13964.042843750001,"end":13964.312843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13964.66721875,"end":13966.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13966.38846875,"end":13966.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13966.40534375,"end":13966.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13967.23221875,"end":13967.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13967.67096875,"end":13968.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13968.852218750002,"end":13969.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13970.168468750002,"end":13970.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13971.87284375,"end":13972.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13974.066593750002,"end":13974.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13975.703468750002,"end":13976.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13975.956593750001,"end":13978.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13978.656593750002,"end":13979.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13980.58034375,"end":13981.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13981.440968750001,"end":13981.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13981.457843750002,"end":13981.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13981.508468750002,"end":13981.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13981.609718750002,"end":13981.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13981.74471875,"end":13983.769718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13981.96409375,"end":13982.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13982.976593750001,"end":13983.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":13983.044093750003,"end":13983.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13984.512218750002,"end":13985.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13986.60471875,"end":13988.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13987.49909375,"end":13987.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13988.612843750001,"end":13989.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13989.794093750003,"end":13990.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13990.38471875,"end":13991.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13994.282843750003,"end":13995.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13996.898468750001,"end":13997.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":13998.855968750002,"end":13999.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14001.015968750002,"end":14005.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14006.31471875,"end":14014.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14015.258468750002,"end":14018.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14019.13971875,"end":14022.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14024.94471875,"end":14026.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14027.45909375,"end":14027.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14028.89346875,"end":14033.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14033.46659375,"end":14034.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14035.52534375,"end":14038.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14038.815968750001,"end":14039.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14040.23346875,"end":14043.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14043.86159375,"end":14044.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14045.532218750002,"end":14082.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14050.425968750002,"end":14050.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14050.71284375,"end":14050.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14050.76346875,"end":14050.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14050.864718750003,"end":14051.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14051.20221875,"end":14051.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14082.690968750001,"end":14102.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14102.97471875,"end":14109.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14109.387218750002,"end":14127.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14127.44346875,"end":14139.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14139.930968750003,"end":14140.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14141.297843750002,"end":14144.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14145.094718750002,"end":14155.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14155.995968750001,"end":14162.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14162.30721875,"end":14173.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14173.64721875,"end":14188.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14189.020343750002,"end":14208.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14212.223468750002,"end":14212.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14213.52284375,"end":14215.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14215.66596875,"end":14216.189093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14216.88096875,"end":14217.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14218.09596875,"end":14219.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14220.762218750002,"end":14221.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14222.21346875,"end":14223.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14225.605343750001,"end":14227.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14229.300968750002,"end":14229.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14231.376593750003,"end":14232.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14233.50284375,"end":14234.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14235.359093750001,"end":14235.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14236.641593750002,"end":14237.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14241.41721875,"end":14244.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14245.36596875,"end":14246.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14247.77909375,"end":14248.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14249.01096875,"end":14249.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14249.027843750002,"end":14249.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14250.31034375,"end":14251.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14253.128468750001,"end":14254.140968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14255.035343750002,"end":14256.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14257.02659375,"end":14258.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14258.359718750002,"end":14259.220343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14261.751593750003,"end":14262.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14263.995968750001,"end":14264.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14266.645343750002,"end":14267.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14268.88971875,"end":14269.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14268.94034375,"end":14271.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14276.21346875,"end":14276.939093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14276.972843750002,"end":14277.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14277.344093750002,"end":14278.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14281.765343750001,"end":14281.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14282.625968750002,"end":14283.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14284.347218750001,"end":14285.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14296.345343750003,"end":14296.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14296.429718750001,"end":14296.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14296.51409375,"end":14298.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14298.47159375,"end":14299.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14299.382843750001,"end":14299.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14299.73721875,"end":14299.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14299.83846875,"end":14300.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14300.327843750001,"end":14300.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":14300.395343750002,"end":14300.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14300.46284375,"end":14300.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":14300.969093750002,"end":14301.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14305.609718750002,"end":14306.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14306.21721875,"end":14307.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14307.449093750001,"end":14308.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14309.153468750003,"end":14310.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14311.245968750001,"end":14311.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14313.372218750003,"end":14313.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14315.312843750002,"end":14316.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14316.477218750002,"end":14317.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14318.55284375,"end":14319.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14324.121593750002,"end":14324.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14326.821593750003,"end":14327.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14328.542843750001,"end":14328.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14329.16721875,"end":14329.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14331.64784375,"end":14332.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14335.12409375,"end":14336.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14337.840968750003,"end":14338.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14340.92909375,"end":14341.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14344.169093750003,"end":14344.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14346.51471875,"end":14349.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14349.687218750001,"end":14349.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14349.957218750002,"end":14351.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14351.965343750002,"end":14354.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14356.504718750002,"end":14361.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14362.883468750002,"end":14367.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14368.65471875,"end":14369.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14370.61221875,"end":14372.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14373.29534375,"end":14375.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14375.961593750002,"end":14378.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14378.745968750001,"end":14380.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14381.78346875,"end":14382.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14383.859093750001,"end":14384.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14384.449718750002,"end":14388.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14389.32659375,"end":14389.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14390.11971875,"end":14391.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14391.722843750002,"end":14392.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14393.64659375,"end":14395.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14397.477218750002,"end":14398.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14399.77221875,"end":14401.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14401.999718750001,"end":14405.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14406.20159375,"end":14410.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14410.99409375,"end":14411.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14411.48346875,"end":14413.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14413.69409375,"end":14417.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14413.930343750002,"end":14414.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14415.972218750001,"end":14416.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14416.208468750003,"end":14416.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14416.562843750002,"end":14416.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14416.613468750002,"end":14416.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14416.64721875,"end":14416.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14417.980343750001,"end":14422.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14418.098468750002,"end":14421.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14421.92909375,"end":14423.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14422.097843750002,"end":14422.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":14424.81471875,"end":14426.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14424.86534375,"end":14424.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14426.02971875,"end":14426.19846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":258.933,"end":259.343,"text":"﹏"},{"start":1357.147,"end":1385.649,"text":"好,繼續開會好,開會之前我先宣布一下台灣高鐵公司請假,董事長請假,列席的理由是另有公務我在這邊重申,我想李昆德、趙偉在這邊你們的事有寫清楚嗎?什麼另有公務?"},{"start":1387.435,"end":1413.556,"text":"台灣高鐵派誰來?你什麼職務?副總那以後這些局長都不要來了派科長啊派什麼長來就好了嘛,他們可以通通不要來啊部長派個參事來就好了啊誰同意你們啊跟我助理打個電話就OK了"},{"start":1415.052,"end":1442.9,"text":"起碼你們跟本人、跟本席尊重一下召委好不好?我講這個事情不只是講高鐵所有單位都一樣你對交通委員會的一個尊重你對兩位召委的尊重另有公務那每個人都寫另有公務就可以了嗎?不可以這樣子以後不准請你們總經理起碼要來吧打電話總經理來總經理就另有公務嗎?"},{"start":1445.782,"end":1470.446,"text":"身體不好?這一次原諒你們好不好?下一次不是你這個單位,所有單位都一樣好不好?再犯的話我們要懲處啦對國會不尊重嘛好不好?你們以後這樣開個前例那以後所有各單位局長通通都可以不要來啦是不是?那還開什麼會?好我們繼續開會,現在介紹我們在場的委員我們總召"},{"start":1476.038,"end":1501.397,"text":"李坤哲委員。還召委召委。對不起對不起。幫你升官了。還廖先祥委員。傅坤齊委員。好謝謝齁。我介紹正常官員。交通部王國材部長。我們部長人緣非常好,而且能力很強齁。這一次沒有入閣很遺憾。"},{"start":1504.045,"end":1522.119,"text":"曾和歌大師張垂龍司長。好,謝謝。陸正己、道安司黃韻貴司長。好,謝謝。請坐。公共運輸局監理司林福山司長。請坐。行政司韓振華司長。請坐。會計處曾煥棟副處長。好,請坐。法制處許鴻達處長。請坐。氣象署陳佳平署長。"},{"start":1534.153,"end":1561.68,"text":"請坐公路局陳文瑞局長請坐高速公路局趙慶華局長請坐鐵道局楊振軍處長局長請坐國營台灣鐵路公司股份有限公司杜威董事長請坐民用航空局何淑明局長請坐航港局葉協榮局長請坐觀光署周元璋副署長請坐"},{"start":1563.1,"end":1586.812,"text":"好,周部長請坐,書長請下昨天跟我講過了運輸研究所蘇政維副所長,謝謝。桃園國際機場股份有限公司范孝倫總經理,請坐。台灣港澳股份有限公司陳少良總經理,請坐。台灣高速鐵路股份有限公司副總經理陸偉東,請坐。"},{"start":1590.916,"end":1617.866,"text":"國大發展委員會國土區域離島發展處邱志斌組長,好請坐。環境部環境保護師徐副司長,請坐。旗鄭主席總署公務預算處的專門委員,黃專門委員請坐,黃者涵。財政部推動出產師洪美清專門委員,請坐。財政部國務署黃勤文組長,請坐。"},{"start":1621.315,"end":1630.782,"text":"農業部農村發展及水土保持署黃敬倫副署長請坐。農業部農田水利署黃興達主任秘書請坐。農業部漁業署莊檢驗計政好請坐。農業部農糧署企劃組的張科長好請坐。保護部"},{"start":1651.892,"end":1678.44,"text":"廖江縣參事好請坐行政院公共工程委員會企劃處胡副處長好請坐本日進行交通部花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制專題報告及審查國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案現在請副會計委員"},{"start":1679.667,"end":1707.296,"text":"其他說明兩分鐘主席王部長各位委員同仁各位媒體女士先生我想今天要討論的是在我們面對這麼大的一個天災"},{"start":1708.658,"end":1733.823,"text":"所挑戰的過程當中我們人民要如何在台灣這塊土地上能夠得到真正國家力量的支持跟照顧一個國家不可以有兩個國度我們看到這一次的大地震所有的原有的這些舊路不管是台八線的中和還是台九線的蘇花公路有這麼多人不幸來罹難在這些區域裡面"},{"start":1736.263,"end":1749.411,"text":"今天如果一個國家給人民連行的安全都沒有這個國家要如何維繫下去不管是環島高鐵、花東快速道路還是國道六號的打通"},{"start":1750.854,"end":1768.493,"text":"這些尤其是國道六號在民國79年就已經在規劃這樣的一個路了但是遲遲一直沒有來進行我們非常的遺憾在經過這一次的大地震我們看到蘇花改在當時興建的時候這麼多人表示意見但是通車以後"},{"start":1777.959,"end":1795.294,"text":"而這次的說話改確確實實不管在高架橋樑或是隧道裏面都是這一次零四零三大地震裏面最安全所有的這些用路人在那個路段裏面都是得到最安全的保障"},{"start":1796.175,"end":1814.913,"text":"所以到底縱橫是要把它來修養、升息北溪也認為應該要修養、升息我們應該開新的路啦用現代的公法能夠給人民一個安全的路很多人有在質問一個問題是不是對花東人民"},{"start":1815.615,"end":1834.762,"text":"有所謂的徒立的問題我在這裡跟大家報告花蓮人民只有32萬人但是每一年來到花蓮的人有超過1200到1400萬人讓大家讓全世界讓台灣的人民都能夠到花蓮平平安安的來快快樂樂的能夠回家"},{"start":1835.422,"end":1853.801,"text":"所以國道六號的興建不只是有一個迫切的需要性而且我們是一個已開發的國家近年的一個環島以中橫這麼簡單的一個新路到現在都沒有開我想在這裡再一次請我們各位委員能夠全力的協助幫忙也請即將"},{"start":1855.282,"end":1880.303,"text":"要跟我們告別的王部長我們都會很想念你因為畢竟我們的相處過程當中都很融洽我們也希望呢你的告別告別的這個委員會的時候啊能夠啊把這些福國利民啊造福代代子孫的這些決策能夠順利把它完成謝謝好謝謝副分局總召"},{"start":1887.219,"end":1909.106,"text":"林國誠委員在主席現場好,我們還有一個委員林國誠委員也歷齡了,謝謝林國誠委員我想部長下一個還要歷齡交通委員會今天不是告別式好不好?明天還要來嗎?好,現在請交通部長王國材部長報告"},{"start":1912.709,"end":1917.286,"text":"部長完了以後就請綜合國道市張市長報告,報告地震"},{"start":1918.431,"end":1943.633,"text":"還有接下去請高速公路趙局長報告國六謝謝主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天是針對花蓮地震公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變的機制提出我們的專案報告也就國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例的草案提出本部處理的意見"},{"start":1945.264,"end":1969.815,"text":"今年四月三號七點五十八分在花蓮發生七點二級的地震的確造成花蓮地區非常嚴重的受損包括在鐵路部分當時礁溪到花蓮鳳林中斷還有包括台九線的大清水隧道這個下清水橋也崩落所以整個花東鐵公路"},{"start":1970.555,"end":1998.68,"text":"完全中斷那為了來緊急處理花東這個整個交通中斷的問題交通部第一時間是啟動海運的這個接駁機制現在4月4號掉了台北快輪那4月5號很謝謝臨江縣政府也把台馬輪借給我們所以我們也做了很多的這個輸運那在航空部分包括民航局權力協調"},{"start":2000.5,"end":2026.854,"text":"華信利隆加開到花蓮的班次經過我們的處理以後台鐵在16小時內在4月4日就提前恢復雙向通車公路部份經過我們公路局的潛力的搶修在4天內就在4月6日的晚上6點就是一星期單線來通車"},{"start":2028.695,"end":2041.947,"text":"那台八線的部分在4月7號也搶通所以在整個初步的這個鐵公路部分都通了但是後續還有中長期的一些復建的一個比較長期的計畫這個我們等一下會報告也都積極的在進行"},{"start":2045.97,"end":2059.768,"text":"那我跟各位報告就是說這一次的確讓我們發覺在台九比如說4月3號的夏青水橋這是在舒花庵裡面的河嶺到崇德這一段然後在4月10號"},{"start":2061.45,"end":2085.908,"text":"從台九線的邊坡掉下來砸到在我們的軌道讓我們的普悠瑪出軌這也是在蘇花安的和平到和中段所以我們認為在蘇花安這個建設計畫是交通部現在要推動最急的一件事情那我們希望在民國121年完工那整個蘇花公路就是變成比較安全的一個公路"},{"start":2086.943,"end":2115.285,"text":"那有關國道六號東延花蓮的建設特別條例我們目前也按照行政院的中長期個案計畫的這個要點在進行現在正進行這個路廊的踏勘跟地址的踏勘我們希望說在這些過去在穿越中央山脈所碰到的這些環境的影響還有包括"},{"start":2117.487,"end":2139.322,"text":"這個斷層還有包括我們的一些地熱、原爆等等的課題必須在我們現在已經在進行中的地質調查把它釐清後續要進行可信性的研究所以我們覺得在國道六號東延部分在交通部也是持一個正面的態度但是我們期待它是經過一個很完整的一個評估就跟全國的各個建設計劃一樣"},{"start":2140.723,"end":2145.569,"text":"那以下的這個兩個報告我就請章崔龍司長跟這個趙信華局長來特別來這個詳細跟各位報告。謝謝。"},{"start":2164.136,"end":2191.083,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生以下就0403花蓮地震有關公路、鐵路、空運、海運應變機制提出來報告4月3號早晨7點58分花蓮縣政府南南東方25公里處發生瑞士規模7.2地震地震深度15.5公里"},{"start":2194.775,"end":2196.943,"text":"交通部接獲中央應變中心開設通報隨即派員進駐"},{"start":2200.222,"end":2228.421,"text":"所屬各機關及開設緊急應變小組以下緊急鐵路、公路、海運、觀光應變作為就報告．進行報告．在公路設施搶修部分．這次地震造成台八中橫公路．台九、台九町新舊蘇花公路．台十一花東濱海公路及臺十四甲離山道物色等路段落實攤方．經公路及相關公路段積極搶災．"},{"start":2230.542,"end":2254.214,"text":"省道編號公路均已經在4月7日12點完成搶通作業有關台八中橫公路、台九縣蘇花公路搶修復建的情形報告如下台九縣蘇花公路在崇德以北20公里到宜蘭和平溪口20公里範圍內一共有6處的災阻有6處災阻那"},{"start":2257.915,"end":2261.48,"text":"那其中台九縣就是剛剛部長所提的下清水斷橋、積極搶修岡變橋是在4月6號18點"},{"start":2267.537,"end":2288.762,"text":"單線雙向開放五噸以下的小型車通行。在台八線東段也就是和歡山到太魯閣之間70公里的路廊內,主要的摘點有13處。13處我們在4月6號12點30分搶通。台八線中橫西段也就是中橫便道行政區在台中市行政區內。"},{"start":2290.262,"end":2319.531,"text":"在谷關跟德基範圍的24公里內主要災點有11處攤方。那我們也在4月7號12點之前完成搶修恢復通行。在應變措施方面在道路管制蘇花公路在台九縣也就是花蓮縣秀林鄉、崇德以北、太魯閣以北7公里範圍內7公里範圍內我們每天以開放三次的方式而進行管制。在台八縣中橫公路東段"},{"start":2322.622,"end":2322.642,"text":" ．一、"},{"start":2342.899,"end":2358.152,"text":"總統變道總統變道我們每天以開放兩次的方式提供提供通行那目前仍是以規範有五種對象可以進出就是離山的居民、工程維修、緊急救難、協助研究以及公務"},{"start":2359.033,"end":2383.489,"text":"那在昨天開始我們為了讓災區的農作物能夠運輸也開放現種提高到17公噸讓災食物跟蔬果能夠運輸下山在協助撤離受困人車部分台八縣因為地震攤房災損超過500多人受困在太魯閣京英酒店經過公路局緊急搶修在4月6號"},{"start":2384.73,"end":2401.492,"text":"早上巡查、排除零星落石後,在10點、13點及16點開放天翔往西經由大漁嶺到台14甲線往南投或是於大漁嶺經過台7甲往宜蘭通行。"},{"start":2402.633,"end":2429.57,"text":"開放的車輛是一種也就是二十人座以下的車輛通行由警方於大漁嶺天翔社管制站一共撤離了三十輛至小客車三輛騎車人數一共是兩百三十二人那上有兩百七十二位留在太魯閣京英酒店的旅客跟員工公路局也緊急增調了十三輛的中巴在四月七號抵達酒店並在"},{"start":2431.739,"end":2456.685,"text":"當天上午11點開始撤離人員全速往西送至台中高鐵站在設施的復原重建部分在台九縣下清水橋的復建我們在中段當天就清理舊橋讓受困的民眾通行第一階段我們開放岡邊橋是供5噸以下的小車通行"},{"start":2459.406,"end":2473.263,"text":" ．二、我們將優化岡邊橋預計在五月底希望能夠讓大型車通行在未來的復建我們希望在今年年底能夠完成那其他的摘點我們主要以民隧道"},{"start":2474.565,"end":2490.179,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":2490.179,"end":2505.265,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":2505.525,"end":2527.39,"text":"引運以及用路人跟旅客的安全這個部分我們會在115年底也就是在兩年半年能夠完成台八中橫的西段中橫變道的部分有11個點我們用要用護坡保護的方式也會在今年年底完成同時公路局就不發汽車駕照行車執照牌照發放"},{"start":2528.57,"end":2549.705,"text":"等六項的業務也提供減免規會到113年10月底此外公路局也在研議在花蓮地區的大遊覽車減免汽車燃料稅及牌照稅的做法這個是有關公路部分的搶修復建以及重建的工作在鐵路部分"},{"start":2551.805,"end":2554.25,"text":"地震當下造成北回鐵路及東線有10處的障礙在4月3日24小時"},{"start":2559.451,"end":2582.864,"text":"完成障礙排除之後我們在4月3號兩次動動也就是在地震發生後的16個小時內完成單線雙向通車在4月4號7點完成最後一次搶修後也就是在地震後23小時內完成東西陣線雙向的運行在鐵路部分的應變部分"},{"start":2583.804,"end":2600.264,"text":"提出應變部分。第3當下造成台鐵公司依然交西以南到花蓮鳳林以北停止。在覆死後,台鐵公司隨即投入人員的輸印、物資的輸送,特別是以平車載運中華電信的維修工程車"},{"start":2601.045,"end":2618.838,"text":"以及台水公司的搶修工程車及救援機具物資、抵達花蓮和平等站進行救災的工作。此外,台鐵公司也執行蘇國北運的作業,供應蘇國合作社提出申請,但是到運變中心結束開設時,"},{"start":2620.726,"end":2638.923,"text":"並沒有業者提出申請並沒有業者提出申請在復建在復原重建部分目前只有台鐵的秀林重合站月台有局部受損我們會盡快地搶修會要在今年的10月底供恢復正常運作供旅客上下車"},{"start":2639.884,"end":2658.078,"text":"在空運的應變方面,花蓮地震造成入運中斷。為了疏離受困民眾,交通部民調局當日及協調航空公司在4月3日及4月10日加開台北、台中、高雄往返花蓮的班機一共17架次。"},{"start":2659.113,"end":2676.088,"text":"在海運的設施搶修部分地震造成花蓮港外港範圍內編號17到25號等9座碼頭的後線備填區域因為土壤局部異化產生15到70公分不等的下陷隆起"},{"start":2677.889,"end":2691.377,"text":"這個部分經港公司緊急搶修後目前除了20號及21號碼頭沒有辦法正常作業外其餘的碼頭均恢復運作在海港的"},{"start":2693.189,"end":2708.537,"text":"應變措施方面．地震當時．因為蘇花公路下清水橋的斷橋．在台鐵公司輸運正常之後．台鐵公司隨即睜開花東列車外．交通部航港局也在第一時間啟動海運輸運的備援機制．立即緊急調度臺北快輪．"},{"start":2717.934,"end":2734.569,"text":"來進行輸運並且在親民年假期間運人不是尖峰的時段協調連江縣政府調度新馬輪在4月5號起協助輸運在不收費的情形下在4月4號起總共4天內開航10個航次輸運782人再運各類車輛586輛以上是"},{"start":2744.457,"end":2772.188,"text":"海運的輸運循序。在復原重建、花蓮港、花蓮港部分港公司因為23號碼頭受損較為輕微所以修復後將作為維生碼頭來維持東部的地區的貨物運輸在未來的復建部分17號外港區域17號到25號碼頭的整建部分我們會在今年底完成四座碼頭的整建"},{"start":2772.948,"end":2790.894,"text":"並且在明年的年中、明年6月之前完成剩下的5座碼頭整建。港公司將針對這次地震引發的問題會特別針對碼頭的承載力以及抗潮位的功能來加強對"},{"start":2793.131,"end":2820.828,"text":"﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":2820.968,"end":2838.288,"text":"另外一般旅館有漢翔酒店這三家酒店這剩一家飯店都申請停業到4月30號那其中花蓮漢平酒店除了停業之外也向地方政府提出申請要資遣員工交通部觀光署定有交通部觀光"},{"start":2840.127,"end":2867.049,"text":"屬接受禮數業融資相關的信用保證要點．協助受災的業者順利取得資本性融資．或者是周轉金的貸款辦理災後重建．希望能夠恢復正常的營運。最後要特別剛主席及各位委員、理事先生報告．這次地震造成花蓮地區交通設施的多處的災損．聯外交通一度中斷．"},{"start":2868.427,"end":2882.937,"text":"交通部及所屬機關在中央災害應變中心指揮下、協同行政院災防辦公室、內政部、消防署、警政署等單位緊急應變、全力搶修、鐵路在4月4日及恢復雙線正常運作"},{"start":2886.588,"end":2910.317,"text":"嚴重攤方的台八線中橫公路及台九線也恢復通車並啟動緊急車輛爭吊的機制將受困的旅客安全撤離災區也因為適逢親民假期交通部也立即啟動海空運的輸運協助東部民眾返鄉及輸運旅客後續交通部將督導所有的"},{"start":2912.011,"end":2912.912,"text":"市長,您的報告很像總統部長的報告"},{"start":2940.066,"end":2947.96,"text":"你把所有部位全部納入。那個請回。照這樣剪短一點好不好?報告過了不要再重複了。"},{"start":2949.484,"end":2975.727,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生以效就國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案處理意見報告那傅委員所提的這個草案那我們提出交通部的建議公委員來參考那辦理過程的話第一個就是說84年的話曾經有完成過國道六號的一個可行性研究那因為穿越中央山脈上存在地熱、斷層、鹽爆、湧水等不確定因素那經報告行政院92年"},{"start":2977.228,"end":2999.478,"text":"七月合定,勿封道浦里段,定名為國道六號南投段,已於98年3月通則。第二個部分就是說103年行政院103年2月26號國土保育專案辦理情形這個會議才是在安全、共生及永續的觀念下,高山公路原則上不再開闢,也不輕易啟動拓寬。"},{"start":3003.137,"end":3024.749,"text":"一百零九年三月四號立法院交通委員會決議請交通部三個月內重新啟動國道六號埔里花蓮段的地質調查探勘這個部分的話我們也有做處理那交通部在一百零九年的六月五號也報行政院就是說這個探勘工作要辦這個探勘工作那行政院是一百"},{"start":3025.929,"end":3037.254,"text":"09年11月30日和徒請本權則何處那這個部分後來我們交通部考量整個開發的一個案子所以這成為我們在110年底召開諮詢會議來爭取收集各方的意見作為後續參考"},{"start":3043.117,"end":3067.073,"text":"國道六號如果由埔里到花蓮延伸到這個出名的路廊總長90公里,隧道群有18座總長約50公里,路廊最長的單一隧道達17.4公里。高工局在110年12月召開專家學者諮詢會議,初步認為他穿越中岸山脈不確定因素甚多,除了工程技術困難,"},{"start":3068.554,"end":3088.965,"text":"難度高以外並具有造架高、工期長、環境衝擊巨大、行車安全及防救災疑慮。行政院陳院長在112年3月4日在立法院答詢時同意辦理地質調查。高工局已經在啟動這項調查工作。"},{"start":3090.919,"end":3097.646,"text":"第7後續的話交通部將視路廊、踏勘及地質調查研究結果來根據辦理後續的規劃、環評及引領相關的一個建設計畫作業"},{"start":3105.114,"end":3124.046,"text":"第三、交通部建議處理意見:「國道六號東延計劃因穿越中央山脈地質複雜,已先釐清相關工程關鍵課題,已依行政院所屬各機關中長期個案計劃編審要點規定,按預算程序逐年編列經費循序辦理。」"},{"start":3127.202,"end":3133.347,"text":"所以交通部在支持花東地區已經投入了中長期的一個計畫已經超過2200億加上未來規劃中的蘇花安這些等超過3000億的一個鐵公路建設"},{"start":3140.011,"end":3160.868,"text":"第二、國道六號由湖里東延花蓮因穿越中央山脈不確定因素很多目前相關課題的調查已經展開我們建議是說等到整個足夠的資訊有收集到足夠資訊之後嚴厲解決方案再繼續進行後續作業以上報告敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":3168.035,"end":3189.893,"text":"這一次花蓮的震災,馬祖請農務,但是新臺馬倫在請農務的情況之下,縣長跟鄉親決定第一時間我們把最新的新臺馬倫持往花蓮震災,那麼運輸了兩百多輛車子,四百多位鄉親順利的回來。"},{"start":3193.787,"end":3220.578,"text":"然後馬祖內部不是沒問題,也是一團的亂,要吊住船隻所以我們全體的同仁是不是給馬祖、縣政府跟鄉親掌聲鼓勵一下好不好?非常謝謝王縣長跟我們所有鄉親的支持好,現在進行合併詢答先宣告以下的事項範圍時間初期委員五分鐘,列席委員四分鐘"},{"start":3229.576,"end":3246.873,"text":"委員發言登記於11點30分截止。各委員如果有提案,請在11點鐘以前提出,以便醫生人員會診。暫定11點半休息10分鐘。總委員則上不休息。現在請登記第一位委員李崑哲召委發言。"},{"start":3252.639,"end":3254.721,"text":"謝謝陳雪生、趙偉請下王國材部長、趙新華局長還有齊相淑、陳署長齊相淑署長"},{"start":3263.236,"end":3288.648,"text":"呃,召會長,李召會長部長好對於任何地方重要的交通建設其實交通委員會長期以來都是不分黨派也沒有意識形態都會給予全力的支持我們看到馬祖的建設就好陳雪生召委也非常認真實在的爭取那也為馬祖爭取很多重要的交通建設那對於"},{"start":3290.922,"end":3317.381,"text":"國道六號延伸花蓮這樣的一個特別條例其實我們都是支持對於任何縣市尤其是花蓮一條安全的道路當然也都會全力的支持但是交通建設其實大家都很清楚是不能用法律來框定的它必須透過嚴謹的程序它有相關的不管是像地質調查"},{"start":3319.38,"end":3335.931,"text":"可行性研究還有環境的這樣的一個綜合規劃然後是環境影響評估環差的評估財務的評估都是必須經過這些程序的剛才也提到這一次花蓮的地震"},{"start":3337.234,"end":3365.174,"text":"蘇花街、花圭它應有的一個安全的功能目前是還沒有蘇花安啦因為蘇花安現在還在做環境影響評估不是嗎 來說明一下是 呃 剛才報告就是說蘇、蘇花安現在在做環評、中規所以就是只有蘇花街因為它其實本來就是蘇花高速公路嘛對就是因為環境的一個評估啊沒有通過所以我們"},{"start":3365.674,"end":3366.054,"text":"當然這些其實剛才也提到"},{"start":3383.482,"end":3410.689,"text":"這一條道路從埔里到花蓮不管是從過去7919年開始不管是一般的道路或是國道相關的延伸其實已經經過9次了經過藍綠的執政也已經經過9次的相關的評估、分析、什麼所以說我們必須還是要有一套嚴謹的程序尤其是經過中央山脈它有斷層的問題"},{"start":3412.383,"end":3440.202,"text":"啊他有言報的問題他有地熱的問題他有永全的問題所以他的地質的這樣的一個啊調查是非常重要的因為任何交通建設啊一定是要以安全為前提要以永續為前提要以共生為前提不是嗎安全的道理就是這樣來的啊那我們也提到說這一次相關的這樣的一個"},{"start":3441.645,"end":3469.292,"text":"國六東延的條例說要10年內要來完成可惜嗎雪山隧道不過是13公里挖了15年才完成台北的鐵路地下化23公里也經過了28年才完成那我們相關的這些國道六號的這些"},{"start":3471.138,"end":3496.615,"text":"我們必須要清楚他全場大概是90公里有70公里是隧道最長的隧道在目前的規劃大概是超過17公里以上如果是真的施工的話但是全世界第三長的隧道10年內能完成嗎部長、局長你們都是專業的交通人士交通的專家"},{"start":3497.395,"end":3520.927,"text":"如果這個條例通過10年內能完成嗎 來說明一下非常困難我跟委員在報告就國道這個東六號東延花蓮事實上過去是已經講說已經打死的不做了那我們後來覺得必須這個往前來走所以我們現在在做一件事就剛才談到的地址的調查還有路廊的踏竿路廊"},{"start":3521.807,"end":3546.899,"text":"怎麼樣避過這些環境敏感或地質敏感的地帶那現在這個已經按照我們這個中長期個案計畫在進行當中了如果在我們榻坑路廊找到然後這個這個平屋可行我們就進入可行性然後綜合規劃、環評等等的程序那的確剛才委員所提的非常重要就是說過去我們全國的各個個案計畫"},{"start":3548.14,"end":3553.754,"text":"都是經過一個詳細的評估。如果沒有一個詳細的評估就把它定案。"},{"start":3555.52,"end":3579.445,"text":"﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":3579.525,"end":3605.626,"text":"不分黨派不分藍綠也沒有意識形態都會全力的支持我想陳雪生召委對於交通委員會長久的這樣的一個大家的共識覺得這是一個很重要的一個方向那對於重要的交通建設當然現在用定法律的狀況要來推動或者是大家對於權力分立的原則"},{"start":3607.147,"end":3623.739,"text":"認為立委的權利應該要更大要凌駕行政要凌駕司法這都另當別論但是千萬別忘了交通建設安全永續共生這是最重要的前提"},{"start":3625.052,"end":3647.409,"text":"尤其是中央山脈這一次0403的花蓮大地震造成整個生態的衝擊我們要讓整個交通建設更符合安全永續的這樣的一個前提我希望各位委員、交通委員會的委員要深切的思考另外我們現在來討論地震的問題"},{"start":3651.252,"end":3668.963,"text":"陳署長,我們這一次其實我們看到2024四月份這個四月到目前還沒有過完四月份總共發生了940次的地震那顯著的有感地震有191個最大的有感"},{"start":3670.145,"end":3687.398,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":3687.779,"end":3698.286,"text":"地震我們來比照2023年同樣是4月其實增加了10倍那2023年的這樣的一個災防的一個國家級警報發佈了13次2024年到今天已經發佈了26次是不是來署長說明一下"},{"start":3709.758,"end":3723.912,"text":"國家級警報發布有一定的標準只要規模和震度達到一個程度就會發布的確在花蓮地震之後有很多的余震國家級警報是2012年我推動的當時還沒有細胞廣播系統也沒有國家級警報"},{"start":3731.44,"end":3746.527,"text":"那要求當時的毛志國部長必須要全力的建置相關的這一些機制也要求NCC要全力的配合但是我們國家級這個警報到目前為止他的"},{"start":3747.967,"end":3765.847,"text":"午報的情形還是時有發生我們這個機制應該要進行修正那我們看到2021年到今年到現在為止發生了7次重大的午報事件不管是2021年你看同一個地震宜蘭"},{"start":3768.908,"end":3786.153,"text":"同一個區域的地震發布了14次的地震或者是震度兩極他也發布這樣一個告警或者是台東二級地震卻在台南發布這個國家警的警報那這一次大家印象最深刻的就4月3日有7個縣市應該要發布沒有發布當然我們這個"},{"start":3793.587,"end":3821.866,"text":"四月三號當然是這個7.2級的這個地震也會低估為6.8級的強震所以我這七個縣市沒有發布那我有一個具體的想法地震預警應該要發布而沒有發布那現在發布的標準是25G對不對來署長說明一下是四級地震的震度25G好三級地震的能量大概是8至25G是不是這樣是"},{"start":3824.187,"end":3824.388,"text":"來,書長說明一下。"},{"start":3846.243,"end":3860.861,"text":"是 這個的確有考量我們也在檢討那相關的這個這些的作為我們其實已經有邀請了這個學者專家我們在下個禮拜就會有學者專家討論會針對這個後續的相關的改善作為去做討論好署長"},{"start":3864.685,"end":3876.856,"text":"另外就是規模6.5以上的這個地震啊它震度會比較強而且一定會相關的餘震會比較多而且震的時間也比較久那我們是不是"},{"start":3878.824,"end":3892.411,"text":"來研究一下請專家學者大家來研究這個發生規模6.5以上的地震的時候震度3級以上是否這些區域也花布告緊這個是要很嚴謹的態度來思考來請署長簡單說明一下"},{"start":3895.732,"end":3914.797,"text":"是這個在過去我們討論裡面的確有討論那這個部分因為發布會牽涉到防災單位相關的作為那其實過去我們有邀請這個災防辦還有地方政府的災防機關一起做討論那我想經過這一次的這個事件之後對這件事情會有一個比較明確的結論"},{"start":3916.257,"end":3942.747,"text":"必須以更嚴謹的態度來修正相關的這些標準值讓民眾能夠確實得到預警的這樣一個效果那這麼多年來12年來也逐漸建立了國家級警報大家對於他的一個基本的信任那相關的誤報、落報的狀況必須要儘速的來做一個調整希望這個氣象署必須全力的來督促相關的作業好謝謝委員好謝謝我們李奮哲總召"},{"start":3949.663,"end":3951.805,"text":"稍微請蔡其昌委員發言謝謝主席,請王部長王部長請"},{"start":3972.281,"end":3994.706,"text":"部長早部長我想本席這個會期就已經三次三次兩次在交通一次在經濟針對這個特別條例這是第三次說實在話本席講的都已經有一點這個老生常談這個會期就講了三次本席要再一次強調"},{"start":3996.65,"end":4024.839,"text":"每一個委員為自己的選區爭取權利每一個委員為國家重大建設發展來爭取我都覺得很合理但是本席要再一次強調本席絕對反對用特別條例此例如果一開第一個破壞了憲法權利分立的原則立法委員只要誰佔多數立法委員相互支持大家都來提特別條例"},{"start":4026.53,"end":4054.747,"text":"我跟雪生召委已經做很多年的同事了他長期為離島在拼命為他的馬祖在拼命他也很清楚的知道你看今天只給我5分鐘嘛他也很清楚的知道這個題目沒什麼好講了啦所以他只給我5分鐘嘛因為他知道我上來又要批評這件事情因為資深委員就知道這件事情如果這樣搞可行他早就已經提在馬祖至少提200個特別條例了啦"},{"start":4056.549,"end":4075.157,"text":"對馬祖台灣啊馬祖台灣大橋特別條例他不用在馬祖一誤來就不能不能動啊不是他不能來開會是整個馬祖的鄉親很不方便啊那搞不搞一個特別條例馬祖直接蓋一個大橋通直通台灣"},{"start":4077.446,"end":4099.339,"text":"他也知道他也心中也覺得如果可行有預算還評都過了可行性評估也過政府也有錢當然啊他也很支持啊我也很支持雖然我不住馬祖他也約過很多次我都沒有去馬祖可是我也會支持為什麼這個條件一切都符合所以他你看他為什麼那麼多年很認真在立法院質詢"},{"start":4100.953,"end":4127.306,"text":"我在當副院長的時候他每次上台總質詢他都很認真把馬祖鄉親的需求讓行政部門知道因為這是權力分立啦這是權力分立啦現場那麼多的委員難道每一個選區沒有需要的嗎?上一次我在跟你講過嘛如果特別條例這種做法是可行的我也講過啊大台中發展特別條例一照啦請你幫我準備好我就要提這個"},{"start":4128.7,"end":4149.526,"text":"不可行嘛不能這樣搞嘛權利分立憲法給予立法院什麼職權我們叫五權分立大家不滿意改三權我都沒意見那個都是大家可以討論在民主社會民主政治裡面都可以討論但現行的架構五權分立的架構裡面立法院負責什麼行政院負責什麼大家清清楚楚"},{"start":4150.735,"end":4175.062,"text":"國家這樣才有辦法運作嘛所以回到國道六號的延伸本席過去也曾經講過嘛這個是國家重大建設這條如果通的話那台中到花蓮很近嘛所以交通部現在也在進行你們叫做地質、地表地質的調查對不對那你為什麼要做地表地質的調查"},{"start":4176.923,"end":4190.381,"text":"表示那個地方在狀況上面的確碰到很多這個原爆啦還有一些這個地質斷層的沒有錯所以他是很務實科學我們要面對很多環團對於環境的質疑"},{"start":4192.495,"end":4208.574,"text":"蓋了這一條路對台灣的這些原生的植物動物對台灣的環境有沒有產生什麼樣的衝擊我們必須把環境的對環境的衝擊跟影響做一個很完整的評估我們不應該再相信人定勝天嘛"},{"start":4209.642,"end":4228.84,"text":"一個地震你看我們今天都還要為地震臺灣這個多地震的島嶼我們不斷的在祈福不斷的在努力怎麼讓災害沒辦法我們克服不了天他要讓我們地震就地震但我們提供怎麼樣的預警系統我們提供怎麼樣的防震的法規條文來防止蓋的更堅固"},{"start":4230.168,"end":4249.102,"text":"所以我們只能在上天啊聯名的情況底下我們盡其人類的可能來做所以一樣的道理當我們面對國家重大建設我們第一個要想到我們要挑戰天要挑戰什麼所以國道六號我不會說我一開始就說毫無理性的我就贊成或反對但我遵照"},{"start":4250.731,"end":4258.615,"text":"我們行政機關這麼多年下來我們有一套評估的程序這個評估的程序就是類似像這個事情我們必須從地質的調查"},{"start":4261.53,"end":4289.576,"text":"很多包括原住民的等等問題斷層的問題以後這一條會不會面對有經過多少地震斷層帶的問題詳細把它研究好之後如果覺得這個是可以克服我們就進入下一個階段叫做可行性評估然後接著可行性評估如果又過關了可行性評估當然包括環評嘛都過關了我們才有細部設計才有綜合規劃嘛這個就是一個流程這個就是行政流程"},{"start":4290.968,"end":4314.457,"text":"這個就是任何評估一個重大建設理性務實的角度不禮盲、不沖狀、不因為政治口水淹沒了我們這個專業這個也是未來我們這個建設能夠成功要說服民眾說服跟我們意見不同的人我們有一個基本的科學理性的根據這個就是這一套嘛所以我已經講了第三次今天只剩下五分鐘"},{"start":4316.107,"end":4341.215,"text":"但是我還是必須要再一次在這裡大聲的呼籲本期對於每一個委員要提案去爭取建設我都沒意見但是用特別條例的方式如果此例一開我跟大家保證每一個人都有幾百個特別條例要提我常常跟你們講我對我們那個人行道、人孔蓋我都不滿我有人孔蓋發展特別條例"},{"start":4342.827,"end":4359.642,"text":"我有水溝興建特別條例我都一大堆我準備好了嘛如果這個可行這樣二稿可行的話所以本席還是再三呼籲啦立法院立法委員大家很努力要為地方發展來講話本席都覺得很棒很肯定"},{"start":4360.745,"end":4380.018,"text":"但是我們不可以立法委員帶頭把違憲亂政把這種明顯就違反權力分立的原則這種方式如果可以搞過去我們立法院已經11屆了立法院不是第一屆啦所以本席還是再一次這樣最後我只提醒一點因為時間已經到了我只提醒一點"},{"start":4381.53,"end":4403.677,"text":"對於震後就是現在我們在談這個所謂應變機制這個因為事實上已經開始應變但是本期比較關心的是震後花蓮觀光產業的振興因為大家知道先天這兩年已經先天不亮從疫情結束之後國人旅遊型態的改變缺工的問題結構的這種調整"},{"start":4406.278,"end":4407.018,"text":"〈花蓮地震公路〉"},{"start":4434.428,"end":4456.92,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":4457.06,"end":4469.028,"text":"指放聯盟來評估嘛我們指放可以帶動可不可以透過指放的比賽然後帶動西部的觀光客的球迷就過去那邊然後可以讓他住就住"},{"start":4469.838,"end":4469.878,"text":"謝謝蔡委員長。"},{"start":4496.428,"end":4514.855,"text":"好,謝謝蔡副委員長對馬祖的支持希望你第4次發言繼續幫我們發聲,謝謝看來你講馬祖的時間我都幫你扣掉了好,下一位請游昊委員發言"},{"start":4525.899,"end":4529.261,"text":"謝謝找委有請部長部長請部長好部長辛苦那在這裡也延續了剛才質詢跟發言的情況那本期同樣的今天也是第三次兩次在交通一次在經濟還針對這特別條例阿"},{"start":4550.911,"end":4567.998,"text":"那表示支持跟而且也是必須必要那因為如果說許多的重大建設那因為過去包括這8年的一些停滯那而沒有辦法進行我想說我們國內的重大建設也不能這樣子一直的延宕跟delay"},{"start":4568.938,"end":4591.906,"text":"相信這個所謂的特別條例一定是重大的建設或事件才會有所以包括這個嚴重特殊傳染肺炎防治及紓困陣型特別條例過去在通過的時候大家其實不管是這時候藍綠都有見證同樣的交通委員會的立委一定對於國內的交通發展跟建設絕對是不分藍綠"},{"start":4593.286,"end":4621.49,"text":"那我相信在這個中台灣的生活圈包括中張頭如果能夠藉由國道六號東延還能夠到花蓮的話我相信這個不僅是對花蓮有幫助對南投有幫助甚至對整個中張頭在交通發展或公關發展等等絕對都有幫助所以說在這次的特別條例那我在想本席同樣的是就如上次在交通後面在經濟也希望說今天在交通委員會再次表達"},{"start":4622.55,"end":4642.583,"text":"這個特別條例、國道六號東延那個其實是重要且必須就如上次所講的過去有十大建設那這十大建設創造了我們台灣經濟發展的奇跡那現在也需要許多亮點的交通建設才能夠讓我們小小的台灣在許多的交通的面向上更能四通八達"},{"start":4643.303,"end":4643.623,"text":" ﹝國道六號東延草案﹞"},{"start":4664.426,"end":4692.185,"text":"那在將來能夠盡快來去做實施我覺得這樣子的建設不僅是對南投跟花蓮是好對於整個國家的經濟發展絕對是大有助益那所以說在過去從79年就已經規劃那我相信剛才部長一開始在說明的時候也有提到說支持正面的態度那其實在有時候啊其實南投的鄉親大家都會提啊"},{"start":4693.305,"end":4711.075,"text":"這個以前的話縱北傾南他過去8年的這個前瞻計畫縱南傾北但是中部阿東部爹不疼娘不愛好不容易有一個國道東延還可以讓南投跟花蓮做一個大型的交通建設就在現在的話還是需要從中阻礙那在南投過去"},{"start":4711.855,"end":4739.683,"text":"一開始有這個貫通的話是在這個台灣鎮總兵吳光亮那時候打通八通關古道那後面開始有公路的實施那過去的一個重要的交通建設而現在剛才我們有提到的許多隧道的部分其實現在的技術上其實通通是已經可以來超越那也可以來完成這樣子的一個交通建設其實在國外比這個技術更難的其實也是都有"},{"start":4740.143,"end":4768.403,"text":"所以說本席還是在這裡就是要就教部長在其實民進黨過去也曾經提到花東發展條例也是特別條例特別基金特別預算那在今天的國道六號東延那交通部除了正面態度之外那可以在多少的時間之內那盡可能的來針對六號東延來提出一些具體的時程表跟計畫表跟大家說明等有人報告齁"},{"start":4769.204,"end":4788.159,"text":"因為這一個叫做個案計劃就像委員在談比如說捷運行政在南投這叫個案計劃那過去是比較沒有針對個案計劃來提因為個案計劃它必須經過我們中長期計劃的審議程序來進行就是說包括這個可行性綜合規劃、環評等等的"},{"start":4790.58,"end":4809.231,"text":"我們認為這次台八縣的確顯現出脆弱的一面我剛才說持正面態度我們現在就要進行當中了的確中部地區要有一條比台八縣更安全的路我想這部分是我這次感覺所以我想說"},{"start":4810.751,"end":4832.636,"text":"我們持正面但是如果不經過評估我們現在正在做路廊的調查還有這個地質的調查路廊調查踏灘路廊踏灘就是開始找路廊預計多久之內這個調查報告會出來一五年就就出來了比如說已經找到路廊地質OK那就是進入後面的可行性的一些程序那我是希望事實上最重要一點是說這種個案計畫"},{"start":4834.957,"end":4855.179,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":4855.319,"end":4879.352,"text":"我沒關係因為等一下還會審查條文還會繼續所以說第一的話是希望說正面的態度就是積極的作為那再來的話南東縣政府有提到南豐村到青外村的高架道路可以成為六號的先期的一個交通建設的部分他也希望能夠列入紀錄還能夠盡快來做一個評估謝謝好謝謝好謝謝六號委員的發言下一位請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":4887.998,"end":4916.895,"text":"我們台南的大佬林俊賢委員感謝雪宮主席本席邀請我們交通部王部長王部長請委員請台鐵,台鐵在嗎?公總在嗎?公路局在嗎?部長我們4月3日發生發生了花蓮大地震那4月10日有一塊落石"},{"start":4918.328,"end":4941.996,"text":"在台九線160的地方掉下來打到了火車你知道吧?知道,是。還有運氣啊,那個石頭非常非常大。砸中了台鐵啊。幸好沒有人傷亡啊。他是掉在軌道的旁邊,然後車子在走去插撞他。好。但是那個地方啊,就是台九線160K啊。"},{"start":4945.099,"end":4972.802,"text":"臺鐵說那個地方不是落石區了臺鐵你知道吧臺灣經過地震以後我們所有的鐵公路沿線都做邊坡的安全檢測所以在這一次發生這塊大石頭的地方臺鐵裡面是不列為落石區了但是很奇怪了公路局是把它列為落石區了是同樣一座山同樣一個地方"},{"start":4973.783,"end":4996.65,"text":"台九線這個鐵公路是並行的是連在一起的為什麼一個單位說落石區一個單位說不是我先初步說明一下台九線是在鐵路的上面所以台九有它的邊坡然後鐵路在下面所以不是嗎它等於是從它掉到公路不會再往下掉再滾過去就到鐵路啊"},{"start":4999.591,"end":5010.61,"text":"他一條上面一條下面阿你有規定池頭只能滾到公路就要停下來阿如果你公路以上是落水區你鐵路當然也是吧這樣才合理吧"},{"start":5011.687,"end":5034.481,"text":"那花蓮港鐵所在公路公總說他那個邊坡是落實區那台鐵同樣經過啊就旁邊有兩條線上下平行的啊那邊不是落實區的確那個公路齁它事實上我們等於在我們蘇阿安裡面的和平到合作我們要全部再去全部要再去通盤檢討檢測啦因為當時就發生了那個落實的意外嘛"},{"start":5041.158,"end":5069.977,"text":"地震嘛你知道台灣現在地震恐怕越來越頻繁了2022年台東就六級多啦今年2024年花蓮就七級多了上次大地震在台南2018年嘛對不對也是六級多大地震嘛好那就算公路局把它列為落實區啊那公路局啊既然是落實區他也沒有安裝落實警告系統那地方也沒有也沒有"},{"start":5072.771,"end":5092.865,"text":"所以他沒有辦法預先偵測到落實他也沒辦法去警告台鐵那我來找一下目前公務局的落實警告系統就做大概這8個地方了是經費預算不夠嗎還是你逐年安裝還沒有做好"},{"start":5094.624,"end":5114.603,"text":"各位委員報告因為我們主要還是做就是說防落實的相關的一個設施啦因為告警的話就是說他其實是就是說是先警告就是用路者比如說前方的不過因為有落實的地方的話其實我們是先做整治你不要看這個小事情喔你那個變波檢測都假的啊"},{"start":5116.369,"end":5137.18,"text":"同一個邊坡台鐵說不是落實區公總說是我就用這個案子給你參考了而且這個地方確實發生損害啦還好啦落實沒有直接擊中車廂啦有沒有導致火車翻覆或遊客有死傷啦"},{"start":5140.423,"end":5166.969,"text":"我跟鐵路跟公路都要做個討論啦再來我來談一下今天的主題啦國六東延到花蓮的問題啦我記得當以前高空局有估算過預算嘛好像3年前估8815這樣子大概8000億左右8000億嘛那3年前嘛現在啊我看要破照啦"},{"start":5169.58,"end":5180.045,"text":"三年來再加上物條再加上人工物料的漲價超級乾坤啊那重點是蓋得起來嗎你做得開嗎在這個國民黨提的這個東延國六東延裡面他規定10年要完成各位你知道雪水12公里挖了15年了"},{"start":5199.434,"end":5215.92,"text":"在這個國六東延裡面啊最最困難的就是能高山啊能高山碎到幾公里?好像18公里啊?17公里多少?比雪碎還要長啊雪碎花15年喔能高山要花幾年?"},{"start":5218.108,"end":5244.367,"text":"跟委員報告這個還要再評估還要再評估嗎?也效益很長而且龍高山那個地質很脆弱的啦什麼岩盤啦、湧泉啦等等啦雪碎啊死了13個人啦我在龍高山這種難度啦我看會更危險啦對不對那同時啊你為了要東延到花蓮啦你那個橋墩要架很高啦因為他才可以衝過高山嘛"},{"start":5245.322,"end":5271.448,"text":"我看你的計畫裡面估算喔,哇這個這非常可怕啦台灣第二高的啦就附近啦國信啦南投國信鄉的那個橋墩啦70公尺啦就橋墩高有23層樓啦你現在國六如果東延喔到霧社啦就超將近1150公尺啦比國信還要高很多啦所以呢橋墩恐怕一定會破100公尺啦100公尺30幾層樓高的橋墩欸"},{"start":5276.175,"end":5304.026,"text":"然後你要再估算他能不能抵擋天災強震啊而且他也不是直接就裝那麼高你要慢慢慢慢慢慢讓車子滑坡上去啊所以這個工程啊有相當高的一個困難度啦那以前我看這個計劃裡面吳君濟委員啊他說拿歐洲尤其像瑞士的鐵路隧道來做比較啦那瑞士的山脈都古老山脈研板他那個非常穩定啊"},{"start":5305.25,"end":5321.595,"text":"台灣不一樣喔台灣的中央山脈啦是新生的山脈尤其像農高山這種喔中央山脈地址那是片岩啦一片一片那個很脆齁那歪下去很容易整個崩塌下來所以困難度不知道是絕對是遠高於"},{"start":5324.644,"end":5348.775,"text":"現在像類似隧道這種等等啦因為你要挖隧道你要把那個岩盤破壞掉因為它整個都石頭嘛你要把它挖開嘛雪碎的岩盤啦岩附啦就岩盤的覆蓋高度大概750公尺國六這個都超過1000公尺各位可以想一想當時挖雪碎喔50幾噸挖到剪痛口啦"},{"start":5350.559,"end":5379.509,"text":"現在限定國六到花蓮要10年完成那有可能啦而且你要經過了丹大野生動物保護區能丹野鳥棲息地光環頻力環頻力要做到合年合月啦那怎麼可能怎麼可能限期完成而且是破造的工程蓋下去如果蓋到一半蓋不起來蓋下去以後安全性的考量超級前根法案"},{"start":5381.254,"end":5404.582,"text":"﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":5405.54,"end":5432.008,"text":"反對沒辦法他稍微一修改就經過國家公園你看環評就卡那裏更何況整個國道六這個環評恐怕更複雜所以我是覺得政策一定要考量現實面還有它的可執行度否則都弄到後來好不好提起點來跟大家做參考交換意見謝謝部長謝謝主席"},{"start":5434.807,"end":5452.718,"text":"好,謝謝林靜憲委員的發言。下一位請何欣晨委員發言。有沒有急功?謝謝主席陳學生召委。我們請部長。"},{"start":5461.538,"end":5484.471,"text":"市長好,我們今天談花蓮地震那震災之後呢我看媒體有報導那事實上落石有落到這個鐵道那我就想到說不管是天災或者是事故那安全永遠排第一那我之前在台中捷運發生事故的時候曾經在"},{"start":5485.171,"end":5506.727,"text":"要求我們交通部要盤點捷運周遭的工程還有離清楚近縣建的一個規範那甚至進一步的不是只有軌道還有呢我們的國道快速道路等等這周邊的近縣建的這個工程的盤點因為呢除了"},{"start":5507.307,"end":5515.931,"text":"而立正也有可能影響到這些工程的一個建築物或者是他相關的建材設施設備的掉落那也有可能因為發生了"},{"start":5517.83,"end":5537.356,"text":"告知原因的事故也會導致可能如台中捷運那樣子的一個狀況那台中捷運的狀況是已經非常完整的清楚因為我知道我們運安會也有一個相關完整的報告出來但是我覺得我們應該防範於未來而且能夠依照過去的經驗要來面對未來能夠防止相關的事件在發生所以我記得"},{"start":5547.499,"end":5568.7,"text":"對於這個確實當時你也承諾要在兩個月內協調地方政府來盤點清查不管是軌道、國道或各快速道路周邊進線建區的這所謂的工程的狀況來保障安全嘛對不對那我也很高興看到確實我們交通部有盤點他有給了我一"},{"start":5569.241,"end":5590.742,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":5591.448,"end":5607.679,"text":"有沒有再更新應該有再更新部長我跟你講沒有再更新啦應該是當時候1、2年在我的要求之下確實你們有去盤點那盤點出來呢依我現在螢幕上"},{"start":5608.679,"end":5635.676,"text":"給你的頁面是有關中部的那確實有工程名稱啊在哪一個快速道路或國道旁邊啊那這個工程內容是什麼啦是不是有所謂的起重機的吊臂啦齁或者有什麼其他的這個設施設備確實當時候有去盤點但是呢那是112年112年到現在呢沒有為什麼呢因為我們並沒有相關的系統來建置"},{"start":5637.216,"end":5644.141,"text":"那部長你認為該不該建制所謂全國性的這樣子的整合平台而且應該資訊公開透明"},{"start":5647.189,"end":5670.946,"text":"我再瞭解一下當時就是請各地方政府還有包括我們自己的單位旁邊有一些靈鬼工程的做一個調查那資料是不是更新的部分我在因為今天是沒有還沒有確定我可以跟你確定因為當年一、二年的時候是在我的要求的時候才給我"},{"start":5671.647,"end":5688.319,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":5689.136,"end":5706.338,"text":"那這個當然我知道你們需要計畫需要預算來建制那部長你現在承諾說應該需要那是不是趕快在最快的速度裡面折成相關單位趕快編匡列預算趕快做這個建制這個相關的系統整合平台"},{"start":5708.64,"end":5722.611,"text":"首先,定期的更新這部要做。那怎麼公開?就是把這個資料,如果這個系統還沒有建以前,比如說公布在交通部的網站等等的,可以這樣做。是,所以我是建議,"},{"start":5724.252,"end":5747.602,"text":"有分短中長期你說在系統平台還沒有建置之前那是不是應該趕快更新趕快盤點趕快更新趕快公布在你們的官網那如果可以的話我是希望能夠建立一個系統建立一個整合平台讓全台灣各地相關的捷運、國道、省道、快速道路等"},{"start":5748.542,"end":5770.194,"text":"都應該要納入在我們的盤點範圍裡面這個是安全啦好不好好這你答應嗎好那接下來一點點時間我就要問台中機場的事情喔部長台中機場的周邊我知道有一個204年的計畫啦但是呢昨天昨天地方政府有"},{"start":5771.212,"end":5787.537,"text":"我回答地方議員說這個機場周邊的開發評估完成是因為中央定位不明所以我地方政府很難定計畫那部長我們這個台中國際機場的定位不明嗎?"},{"start":5788.226,"end":5801.007,"text":"我現在非常明確那個就是說現在以這個區域當它為主而且現在的航線一直在增加包括新宇你把它當這個等於是hub來"},{"start":5802.714,"end":5813.758,"text":"一個基地嘛一個題目我想中部機場有他的這種區域性的角色而且很重要的區域性的一個起飛航站還有離島的航線還有國際的航線中部地區很重要嘛對不對所以部長我覺得要跟地方溝通啊為什麼"},{"start":5821.761,"end":5843.452,"text":"因為從台中國際機場從陳水扁時代在2004三個台中第一、三個第一我們讓台中機場升格為國際機場一定也是當時胡志強市長的時代我們中央地方合作讓台中機場可以升級成為國際機場那到了"},{"start":5846.834,"end":5866.698,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":5866.758,"end":5867.058,"text":"我們很清楚我們要讓台中國際機場如何"},{"start":5892.756,"end":5908.626,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":5908.874,"end":5934.837,"text":"是,因為我們現在台中國際機場2040計畫已經出來,裡面包括我們未來第三航廈。然後我知道過去委員在談這個局限,局限就是機場一線。我覺得它的重要性是尤其是變成這個很重要的台灣機場的一個輔助的很重要的機場。我想這部分我們是不是把這個相關的資料跟台中市政府讓他知道我們後續的一個計畫。"},{"start":5935.998,"end":5949.032,"text":"讓台中市政府知道我們對台中國際機場第一個定位明確第二個滾動式檢討甚至我們中央民道民代不分黨派不分顏色都希望積極的來讓台中國際機場的這個2040的整體規劃案可以盡早提早"},{"start":5957.028,"end":5970.693,"text":"提早施程 對不對來建置我們的台中國際機場 對不對那讓地方政府知道說地方政府周邊該配合的也應該明確的表示如何在配合共同來讓台中國際機場"},{"start":5972.073,"end":5996.305,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6005.97,"end":6012.873,"text":"好,謝謝啊。謝謝何俊仁委員的發言。下一位請陳素悅委員。好,謝謝主席。請主席邀請王部長。"},{"start":6026.651,"end":6029.253,"text":"國道六號東延花蓮建設及花蓮地震陸海空應變機制進行詢答民意代表基於"},{"start":6041.563,"end":6058.344,"text":"值者替地方爭取交通建設我想這個都是天經地義無可厚非的所以對於這個目前有委員要倡議推動福道六號東延花蓮這個建設目前針對這個建設我們交通部有沒有什麼相關的作為"},{"start":6059.415,"end":6078.446,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們現在去年年底啟動叫做路廊踏勘及地質踏勘這兩個工作所以我們現在等下找這個路還要包括地質的調查剛才談到這個中央商賣太多的這個斷層、原爆還有一些還有一個環境敏感地帶"},{"start":6079.446,"end":6102.542,"text":"那我們是覺得整個國道六號東延我們現在在就是已經持正面態度在做這個相關研究但是他一定要經過這個嚴肅的一個評估我們在進行後續所以我們是覺得說還是要有一個嚴謹的評估這個道路未來可行會更高所以我們是希望朝這方面來做的"},{"start":6102.862,"end":6123.593,"text":"對,我們知道就是每一件這個重大的工程都不是一觸可及的而且它的完成也是牽涉的面很廣那條件也不一樣所以我們在推動這個公共的建設就是有一定的一個流程跟期程所以今天這個副委員他提出了這個國道六號東延的這個條例那就"},{"start":6126.474,"end":6139.248,"text":" ︎部長來看這樣子有沒有符合我們這個計劃的流程因為我們過去像那個委員在彰化爭取了很多相關的計劃評估以後就是去進行了所以經過一個嚴謹的評估反而讓這個計劃更可行"},{"start":6142.992,"end":6165.427,"text":"所以我們是覺得在過去沒有個案計畫直接用條例來框那如果這樣的話就是沒有跳過這個委員所提的這些可行性評估到施工的這個過程那我們是覺得這樣事實上跟我們過去的這個嚴謹的是違反的我們是期待還是走回這個地方"},{"start":6166.407,"end":6193.022,"text":"對因為剛剛我有提到就是每一個公共建設的完成它牽涉的人面很廣那具備的條件不一樣所以尤其就是說以目前他們在推動的這個國道六號因為尤其要通過這個中央山脈這個是中央山脈也是被這個就是一些保育專家列為是一個地質敏感區跟保育區所以未來是不是可以在這樣子的一個環境敏感區來興建這個"},{"start":6196.263,"end":6217.757,"text":"快速公布。我想這個都是要經過審慎的一個評估。那尤其我們看到這一次0403的這個花蓮大地震。這個相信也是這個大自然對我們的一個警示。因為以前都說人定可以勝天。我想當大自然反撲的時候,我想是沒有任何人可以去阻擋的。"},{"start":6218.217,"end":6236.374,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":6236.374,"end":6255.538,"text":"﹏"},{"start":6255.538,"end":6274.889,"text":" ﹏……"},{"start":6274.949,"end":6298.223,"text":"那一天還好車輛不是連駕的第一天若是連駕第一天路上的車輛很多恐怕會造成更多的災難我想這個都是沒有辦法去預期的那這一次的大地震事實上本席這邊也要肯定我們交通部的一個相關的應變因為包括在搶修因為像清水斷橋這個橋斷了我們可以馬上原有的舊橋來做一個"},{"start":6303.746,"end":6332.892,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6333.112,"end":6348.651,"text":"那這一次我們也看到就是說台鐵在這個落實的預警系統有發揮功能就是說在地震發生的那一天就是有一個太魯閣號因為預警系統所以它可以趕快停下來避免這個落實去"},{"start":6349.271,"end":6371.593,"text":"就是造成這個災害、就是意外可是之後相隔應該是一個禮拜就發生了普悠瑪號因為擦撞到這個落石而出軌這個也是造成乘客真的是驚魂未定所以我們真的我們也不能說每次都是靠運氣因為我們還是要盡好做好這個"},{"start":6372.333,"end":6374.674,"text":" ﹝在台鐵沿線現在有26處的落石預警告警系統,後期還有38處。"},{"start":6394.104,"end":6418.387,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":6418.387,"end":6441.254,"text":" ﹏"},{"start":6441.334,"end":6469.532,"text":"我想交通便利都是每一個鄉親的一個期待也是需求不過再怎麼樣的就是便利我們還是要以安全為首要所以就是說就現有的一個交通路線不管是鐵公路的一個安全的一個維護或者是預警系統的一個加強建制我想這個是必要的包括年代的就是說未來一個新屁公路的一個安全性我想這個也是我們"},{"start":6470.312,"end":6491.201,"text":"一定要是首要考量的。好,我們會持續努力。好,謝謝陳委員。接下來我們陳雪生召委。好,謝謝主席。是不是請部長。"},{"start":6497.547,"end":6524.599,"text":"早安部長我再說一次齁因為剛才在主席台上面這個這一次花蓮的震災我們新台馬倫你看我們馬祖啟農屋喔是是是啟農屋啊我們還是以救災為先啦齁那麼這個新台馬倫就開往花蓮但花蓮我們馬祖那邊一團亂啦所以說真的我們真的要謝謝"},{"start":6526.042,"end":6549.69,"text":"連江縣的網線還有所有鄉親的體諒帶了200多輛車子回來400多個人是不是解決了一個大問題所以我在講說這個船我也跟航港局業局長講你像這種船做了以後,棚位也要做船金門有誤的時候這個船也可以持往金門救援"},{"start":6551.696,"end":6575.43,"text":"我們那船也可以駛往那邊去救援啊。所以這很重要,因為金門馬祖常常起霧嘛。那樸屋有問題你看,花蓮有問題我們就去了。所以這個機制很好啦。對我們地方確實帶來不便。但是我覺得王縣長跟鄉親討論啦,我們基於大愛,所以同胞愛啊。"},{"start":6576.297,"end":6593.864,"text":"我們船開具我們借座小船到台北來我真的非常謝謝王縣長還有陳昭偉我們海關局打一個電話他馬上同意而且那是在親民輸運的時候是人滿滿的我就非常感謝就是說"},{"start":6594.884,"end":6618.264,"text":"然後馬上就到花東來輸運。我非常非常謝謝。真的在過去我跟縣長、陳委員我們覺得你們都是非常的大功、願意來協助各縣市。非常感謝。所以我們鄉親當然也非常謝謝我們鄉親,他們也都諒解政府的作為了。所以從這個地方"},{"start":6619.335,"end":6646.183,"text":"我們有一條臺馬之星你知道嗎?臺馬之星這條船做的時候確實有問題。把牛的心臟、兩萬噸的船的心臟裝在那個豬的心臟裡面。你看那個豬能夠活得下去嗎?豬活不下去啦。所以臺馬之星還會有狀況。我跟你講不如能夠淘汰、及時淘汰。"},{"start":6648.581,"end":6660.588,"text":"那我們台馬輪不是有賣了一點錢嗎?賣了一點錢你交通部可以考慮啊?賣了錢再加上我們再給一點錢啊?再去做一條不要那麼大的,為什麼?"},{"start":6662.382,"end":6681.079,"text":"因為常常起霧嘛。常常起霧兩邊可以對開嘛。當然這裡面要投入一些經費。但是為了解決離島交通的問題。金門、澎湖都有4系的機場啊。我們到現在連3系都還不是啊。快有了。尤其快的沒錯啊。南竿機場顯像還生了齁。那個側風確實有問題齁。南竿機場已經無法改善了。"},{"start":6689.261,"end":6710.313,"text":"我請問部長,北韓伊朗改建案在哪裡案子?現在國號會已經送到行政院3月28送過去,現在就等約定來合定,我覺得應該很快行政院我去找卻找不到啊,行政院我去找找不到秘書處已經也上層了"},{"start":6716.1,"end":6743.745,"text":"案子應該我在判斷在政委那邊應該的因為我也為了鄭文燦副院長也沒有啊那鄭文燦副院長沒看到那院長更看不到那我在總質詢的時候院長答覆我部長你也在場嘛他跟我講什麼時間我要求兩個禮拜那你跟院長一樣講一個月嘛這一個月時間到啦院長講話不能不算話"},{"start":6745.588,"end":6767.827,"text":"院長可以講話不算話嗎?陳建源院長我跟趙偉豹現在看起來在北根機場、後建都支持國防會同意啊我了解一下政委那邊有沒有什麼意見我再了解一下現在還有什麼意見?我了解一下我不知道我在上一次選舉之前院長說已經核定了啊核定了後來"},{"start":6769.056,"end":6792.724,"text":"這一次選完以後我又問院長,院長說原來還在院裡面啦,還在院裡面那院長都已經答應啦而且我要求說兩個禮拜很像你們講一個月吧,一個月時間也到啦陳建律院長講話算不算話不算話也沒關係,你講清楚啊我來開個記者會啊,院長講話不算話"},{"start":6797.857,"end":6826.287,"text":"對,因為他主要程序還沒有打印章有影像有錄有文字稿這不可以亂來吧我來這個也來幫你追蹤一下追蹤我已經打三次電話給部長了拜託你追蹤你追到哪裡?上次是追國報會現在國報已經出來了我天天都在追我是每天每一時每一秒也有人也有相信講說北竿機場的改建"},{"start":6827.11,"end":6855.715,"text":"可能會影響到一些經濟發生的問題我跟你講不要急嘛你先把北京機場先把它改建到核定我也問公主委啦我說橋勒世西是我們國內頂尖的這個工程顧問公司欸那他現在已經標案出去了請英國的英國的地方第三方的公正人士再來評估這個造橋有沒有困難度"},{"start":6858.234,"end":6885.728,"text":"他算是好意啦工作也算是好意那我們賴準總統也打電話給工作也好幾次也在關心這個案可能你不知道但是我告訴你我的層次比你還高啦我知道的事情你還不知道我說拜託部長雖然你快卸任了我們很晚熄啦不是說今天就要開告別式我希望不要告別好不好我們永遠的朋友"},{"start":6887.284,"end":6916.375,"text":"我拜託就是說在這個部分請您繼續幫我們努力尤其橋啊當然先做橋嘛是不是橋如果合定先做橋橋如果沒有合定的話我們再來跟居民討論看看這裡面因為做橋有300個人起碼進場嘛那觀光客的話不可能到了南竿你不到北竿這不可能一定也會到北竿去消費嘛所以居民不需要那個你北竿的居民以後要到"},{"start":6917.315,"end":6934.143,"text":"南韓坐船造成他交通的不便,我們也可以有方案出來嘛,配套坐司。不要錢嘛對不對,在這五年坐船到南韓來,我們政府來出嘛。這都不是問題啦,都不是問題啦。"},{"start":6935.649,"end":6959.059,"text":"當然在適當時機我也會去馬鞍珠考察的時候有請交通部,有請部長、民航局長、行政司長相關單位也會到那邊去跟我們鄉親、北韓的鄉親做一個完整的說明因為現在橋還沒有決定嘛你去說明都是空的現在我去說明也不對民航局去說明也不對"},{"start":6960.47,"end":6985.204,"text":"因為你大橋要定案以後才能夠有完整的說明所以坊間一直在講說這樣那樣都是隨便講親善共共所以我才沒有及時的去回應我們老百姓我想你把大橋案子定案做還是不做?如果做的話怎麼回事?不做的話怎麼回事?"},{"start":6986.277,"end":7011.434,"text":"因為畢竟中央政府對這個德政我們是非常感謝另外講到今天的主題雪水雪水做了20年那國六國六要做多少年我是不知道但是你今天不做明天就會後悔啊剛才早上很多委員講了哎呀中央山脈有什麼東西啊落塵啊或者有什麼斷層啊有水啊什麼的"},{"start":7012.64,"end":7037.931,"text":"我們雪山隧道沒有嗎?雪山隧道也有嘛。可以轉彎啦,可以繞道嘛,很多的方式。是不是?你今天不做,明天就會後悔。台中到花蓮可以找那麼近的一條路。我們他做20年雪隧做20年,我們可以做30年啦,做40年啦。我們是看不到起碼我們幫下一代著想。你起碼先有個可行性的評估。"},{"start":7038.547,"end":7067.115,"text":"你地質的測量等等都可以把這些配套全部用上去嘛而且我們副國務級委員也沒有講說今天馬上要做啊也沒有講說多少錢啊是不是評估多少錢也不知道啊那有人講說是八千億是好幾倍我們一年的工程金費你分30年50年就沒有那麼多錢了嘛所以我覺得交通部啊還有我們一些執政黨的同仁啊委員啊"},{"start":7068.369,"end":7089.958,"text":"不要站在很主觀的方向去想,交給專業的專家有沒有去做評估,去做評估是比較有道理的。部長你覺得勒?我基本上我剛才談到我們從這個正向來思考這件事,但是就是說剛才談到的我們現在已經在做路廊踏桿跟地址調查"},{"start":7090.939,"end":7112.606,"text":"我們在這個調查裡面會把重要課題把它找出來然後就進入可行性那我們是覺得說這個是一個很重大的工程對花蓮也很重要但是它必須很嚴肅很專業的做一個評估不是說用一個條例直接把它定下來就像這個馬祖大橋一樣也做到綜合規劃中間也跑這麼"},{"start":7114.827,"end":7135.874,"text":"已經證明對交通部公路起來講已經證明可行了阿只是現在在合作有我有問過公主委阿世襲還不夠嗎你還要拿到英國去他說英國的公司也會找世襲去討論同樣道理就是說我個人是持正面但是我覺得他要經過類似馬祖大有這種評估然後我們就加速進行那當然"},{"start":7136.994,"end":7148.902,"text":"這次在這個台八的狀況這麼脆弱我們是覺得在這一個腳步齁我們可以加快應該再加快來進行的我認為新的革命上還好我會就這方面因為"},{"start":7151.904,"end":7169.069,"text":"賴院長他也很關心這個大橋,他去馬祖也答應我他要做這個大橋,他要做不是不做,賴準總統他要做不是不做,所以我覺得希望蠻大的"},{"start":7169.537,"end":7188.46,"text":"我希望是大橋跟機場我們一起來做。把馬阿祖的未來,我站在馬阿祖的高度、馬阿祖的視野來看這個問題。這才是永續的一個經營之道。為了後代子孫。我不管我看得到看不到。好不好,我們共同努力好不好。好,謝謝。謝謝趙委員。"},{"start":7190.302,"end":7213.774,"text":"好謝謝我們陳雪生召委接下來請我們李明哲委員啊魯明哲委員抱歉我那對沿道的都比較緊張啦好謝謝主席有請我們交通部王部長王部長請"},{"start":7218.3,"end":7237.052,"text":"市長,首先表達我個人對於國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例表達支持。我覺得這是表達我們一個地方建設的一個決心。因為在很多一個重大建設每次拿到桌上排序的時候,我們在花動很多一個交通建設,可能因為價錢又貴,"},{"start":7239.534,"end":7263.776,"text":"公程又有困難所以永遠被擺在後面所以我就展現決心啦第二個齁我自己覺得長年來花東人回家的路型定義都被我們定義完畢了花東人回家就是他的責任就要去台灣頭看看跟基隆鄉親打打招呼要不然就到台灣尾跟屏東鄉親打打招呼再回家北鬧南鬧那為什麼我們在"},{"start":7266.278,"end":7294.085,"text":"所謂的建設的一個工法科技不管是在歐洲的大陸或者對岸的大陸在大山大水他們有多少地質比這個更困難的都可以做好所以我覺得如果國道六號東延花蓮的話我覺得讓花蓮人重新定義花東人重新定義他們一條回家的路所以我個人是表達支持那我想這個因為時間不多了"},{"start":7295.384,"end":7312.278,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":7312.358,"end":7340.681,"text":"一五年開始那時候就是邊坡落石一個警告系統當時要說26處結果我們到我上任到我上任的時候那時候問而原本預計的騎乘也延期了一直到2021年的4月2號太魯閣事件因為車從邊坡滑下去了大家要重新開始檢討加速把26個地方能夠完工"},{"start":7341.542,"end":7366.719,"text":"那我們再看到4月3號4月3號大地震的時候我看到你這個董事長局長變董事長董事長有報告嘛這一次發揮了功效阻止了列車進入落石路段26個這個告警系統有幾個發布有幾個有反應要跟委員報告0403這一天那個時間點我們是有一個系統一個嗎"},{"start":7371.562,"end":7399.888,"text":"二十六個裡面有一個發現了欸一個就很重要喔我講真的齁那也這個引發或者促使了列車停下來嘛對速零二停下來這就很有用啊那我們本來想說問題大致解決了齁因為哪裡危險也是尊重你們那個專業你們選了二十六個最危險的地方然後也做好了但是七天之後我們不用嘛剛剛我們這個軍縣委員也說了齁而又撞擊到"},{"start":7400.948,"end":7402.31,"text":"我請教一下"},{"start":7417.771,"end":7436.479,"text":"你現在這個26個是不夠嘛齁那你們現在講說那個地方因為沒有不是我26個當時的告警系統可是你的自己的工會啊勞工董事啊還是工會啊秘書長啊他自己啊秘書啊他也說啊他說其實事實就在"},{"start":7437.199,"end":7452.672,"text":"地震當天啦因為你是4月10號才撞到了但地震當天就在距離現場就是你所謂的不是那26個重點區就已經發生了落實了然後2019年的時候幾年前也發生了落實"},{"start":7454.053,"end":7480.751,"text":"那這個部分那這樣我就請教你一下你現在偵測那就不夠就不夠有一些地方發現也是危險就不夠那我們再針對這個糾結下去沒有用啊你現在要偵測38處是不是這個計畫那現在的進度如何經費找到沒有有經費都已經有找到我們現在38處我們預計會全部在明年的年終會完成"},{"start":7481.371,"end":7496.904,"text":"明年的年終會完成嗎?現階段我們會在6月完成發包然後我們計畫在9月我們就有實體的阻攔跟一處示範性的告警會完成"},{"start":7498.005,"end":7525.592,"text":"這個你的地點的一個評估我相信除了專家之外你第一線的公路、公班我相信今年累月他最了解了我們希望26加38未來總共64個我們整個台鐵高風險路段真的是希望能夠保平安然後最後我鐵道局請教一下就一分鐘就好了這是因為去年的五月"},{"start":7527.062,"end":7543.376,"text":"我們在終結他的因為有施工的吊被墜落嘛發生了一死十四傷那我們在就這個月啦我們桃園捷運、桃捷運發現還好那個比較小的施行鋼就掉進去軌道了那當然造成了一個跳電"},{"start":7544.937,"end":7568.245,"text":"現在他們也在想他們也在想說這個義務入侵的一個系統因為原本是這樣啦因為台鐵要經過甚至高鐵要經過很多地形複雜的一個區塊那一般的捷運大部分都是在軌道已經比較穩定的一個區塊所以在早期全台灣的捷運都沒有裝這個那現在我想鐵道局還是部長部長你要講一下吧"},{"start":7568.985,"end":7597.716,"text":"因為全臺灣的一個捷運齁他們現在也希望對於義務入侵軌道能夠裝監測偵測系統這個部分這個交通部跟鐵道局可以支持嗎?這個可以支持嗎?支持他們?看他們提出計畫啦就是說這個技術呃委員長這部分是不是局長說的這個根文報告齁因為捷運系統現在所做的義務偵測方向是朝向在車上裝"},{"start":7598.669,"end":7625.28,"text":"像我們小客車這一種所謂的固態雷達就車載的車載的是不是那這一部分呢我們曾經洽詢過全世界相關的這個主要的系統商跟顧問目前在這個部分技術上是不穩定的他的可靠度還沒有辦法達到非常穩定的一個狀態非常容易造成誤告警所以上次在談這個案子的時候這樣的齁"},{"start":7626.7,"end":7655.046,"text":"現在全台灣的捷運公司他都有提出這樣的一個需求我希望鐵道局是有回應的如果技術是車載的一個系統或者特定在施工風險區塊在軌道放置這個部分我希望你們能夠來協助好不好好謝謝好休息五分鐘負委員對不起啊要解決部長一號跟二號的問題"},{"start":7658.646,"end":7672.983,"text":"你趕快去喔,等一下又是一兩個鐘頭你趕快去一下你腎臟沒那麼好你腎臟好到越南早就被割掉了"},{"start":8013.442,"end":8042.431,"text":"好,各位請就座好,現在我們請傅崐萁總召花蓮主席各位立委同仁各位媒體女士先生交通部王部長及各位官員我們再一次回顧"},{"start":8044.141,"end":8067.297,"text":"我想從20年前不斷地在立法院不斷地呼籲什麼時候才能夠給2300萬人都有一條安全回家的路但是我們很汗顏啊到即時今日台灣早就是一個已開發的國家我們並不是啊孟加拉更不是一所皮牙"},{"start":8068.581,"end":8097.763,"text":"一個已開發國家台灣島就這麼小但所有的基礎建設都還沒有來完成而且幾十年來在立法院不斷的呼籲當然大家都有各種不同的看法我們都尊重但是道路新建完成就是給人走的為什麼一個國家有兩種以上的國度這個是我們一直很好奇每天大家出門都希望平安的回家"},{"start":8099.653,"end":8128.548,"text":"何忍看東台灣的鄉親讓家人們在這樣的道路上行走而且又是在歐亞板塊跟菲律賓板塊的擠壓之下有這麼多的天災地變颱風來就從東岸來地震又是主要的地震帶國家早就一套長遠因應的辦法在這個地方早就應該來興建這些道路"},{"start":8129.81,"end":8154.611,"text":"我們再次的強調在這一次的0403的大地震當中蘇花蓋所有的路廊都是完好如初最安全的而在台八線中橫台八線能夠幸免於難的都是躲在這個民粹道裡面"},{"start":8156.078,"end":8180.871,"text":"所以為什麼我們國家的國民還要忍受這樣的一個怠惰的政府忽略對這樣的一個地區早就應該做好的基礎建設大家很難想像這不是交通問題交通平權人命無價為什麼要讓我們人民在暴險當中"},{"start":8182.901,"end":8206.492,"text":"而且這一次也包括國外的觀光客也不惜得罹難還有各縣市的好朋友來到花蓮都碰到台九縣的崩山台八縣的崩山我們看一看這段影片到底為什麼我們的國家還可以容忍這樣的生活環境在台灣我們來看一下"},{"start":8213.094,"end":8239.997,"text":"從德台九線的崩山是這麼可怕這裡面有多少人在第一時間就被活埋了開始倒車逃命梳化公路"},{"start":8264.53,"end":8288.896,"text":"聽見警報聲響、駕駛油門吹了起、躲進隧道逃命。直播差點沒命,因為下一秒眼前景象讓車上的人不敢置信。前方道路全坍塌、隨後滿天煙塵、席捲而來。行車記錄器全被土石覆蓋、伸手不見五指的恐怖景象,有如世界末日般,駕駛前後遭到煽動。"},{"start":8315.151,"end":8342.364,"text":"因為我們的家人每天回家跟出門都要走這樣的路我們的同理心、將心比心在哪裡?將心比心在哪裡?可以,可以了,把它關掉"},{"start":8345.686,"end":8368.816,"text":"所以我要請教一下為什麼台灣還有這樣的人民在這種環境當中來生活我們大家的同理心在哪裡?台巴線還能走嗎?新的路廊早就應該要做了讓大家都能夠平平安安在台灣成為一個共同的生活圈所以我這裡先表達請部長"},{"start":8373.937,"end":8400.383,"text":"請部長本席請教一下2020年3月4號就在這個委員會我們通過了國道六號的這個探勘啟動2020年3月4號就通過了主決議在委員會林佳龍部長敬表尊重也支持在本委員會通過以後"},{"start":8402.177,"end":8426.354,"text":"現在路廊探勘到什麼時候可以完成?各位報告目前是去年年底完成委託115那我是覺得在這一次我的確看到整個台北市委託金額是多少錢?兩千多少?一千多少?兩千萬左右一千八百萬一千八百萬路廊就可以探勘完成嗎?"},{"start":8430.037,"end":8456.276,"text":"什麼時候可以完成路廊的探勘?地質研究。現在是一一五五年底嗎?二零二六年年底。好。北齊再一次強調二零二零年年初通過的決議要到二零二六年年底才能夠完成地質的研究還要再來可行性再加個五年八年"},{"start":8458.666,"end":8486.75,"text":"那個都已經不曉得改朝換代多少次了。我想交通部就是用這樣的心態在面對這樣的事情。我們希望部長這是留給兒孫走的路。他要去韓院長跟陳建仁院長說完工的時候我們已經不在位子上但是給代代兒孫一條安全的路來走。"},{"start":8487.967,"end":8508.556,"text":"我想這樣的心情韓院長的心情陳建榮院長也表示支持我們希望交通部所屬單位能夠盡快完成這個事情這不只是安全的問題更是人道的問題所以不要想說再來完成什麼地質調查報告可行性研究"},{"start":8510.612,"end":8533.272,"text":"曾文燦副院長在跟我討論這個事情他說你看我們現在環島高鐵我們不是不做啊我們要做啊台北延伸到宜蘭要做啊高雄延伸到屏東要做啊行政院要做啊我說什麼時候輪到行政院來做你用BOT的案子就可以了嘛我說台灣高鐵就是BOT啊你為什麼政府又突然跳進來自己要來做"},{"start":8535.174,"end":8535.474,"text":"拜託民間做"},{"start":8553.343,"end":8573.473,"text":"這很簡單的事情。我們希望這是不要再空耗下去。而且國道六號打通的事情在條例寫得很清楚。促進民間參與。不管是國內的BOT還是國際的BOT。人家來做地質的研究調查、路廊的三竿可信研究都不會比我們的政府要快10倍。所以我們還是誠意的來面對這個問題。"},{"start":8578.393,"end":8599.071,"text":"部長,可以嗎?我想蘇阿安這次有提及看到台九線跟台八線的脆弱我想蘇阿安121我們現在環評事業底就送進去就121把它完成了那這個國道六號的東延事業上上次委員談到VOT我也跟局長談過了"},{"start":8600.632,"end":8621.428,"text":"另外就是說縮短事實上路郎踏刊跟地質調查是不是跟後面的可行性兩個時間把它縮短我剛才跟局長講有些地方是因為有些項目是的確在可行性研究室可以做的我這部分會跟局長來討論的確我覺得在這一次整個這一個台八的脆弱的確"},{"start":8623.309,"end":8641.077,"text":"讓這個延伸案本身更是有它的必要性我自己有這樣的感覺但是剛才談到這些行政的程序因為行政程序有的在處理的過程中政府的行政效率"},{"start":8641.937,"end":8667.75,"text":"二零二零年三月四號通過二零二六年年底才會完成前後竟然要花六年九個月的時間一個路線地質調查要六年九個月唉我覺得齁部長啊交給民間來做啦數效率絕對比政府好啦我想啊不要用所謂的行政程序來卡關"},{"start":8670.278,"end":8681.207,"text":"蘇花案到現在201616年就應該要做的事情到現在2024年蘇花案的環評還被退建還要求補建八年了"},{"start":8683.154,"end":8709.11,"text":"今天看到這樣的一個路況我們大家拿出良心來面對我們的國人我跟委員再說明一個重染是BOT的案子你的相關的資料也要給投資廠商包括剛剛所談到的這些地質的一些相關資料並不是說突然跳到BOT去因為他對他也不了解國外的這種案件很多"},{"start":8712.892,"end":8739.565,"text":"你去看一下台灣高鐵當時怎麼興建的決標以後開始規劃開始處理85年到87年88年什麼時候動工什麼時候決標你回去看一下這些資料我們再一次的要表達政府的心態是什麼有沒有好好用良心來看待人民"},{"start":8740.438,"end":8741.759,"text":"接下來我們請林佩祥委員花蓮"},{"start":8775.202,"end":8776.808,"text":"好,謝謝主席,請部長王部長"},{"start":8783.297,"end":8805.435,"text":"您好部長我個人是對這個國道六號東移我是贊成的尤其是我上禮拜天特地跑去花蓮了一趟當我看到那個橋墩都已經被那個地震震到的時候其實我就知道更不用敢講說天王星啊其他的狀況我就知道這整個花蓮對他們來說"},{"start":8807.056,"end":8836.356,"text":"這一次的地震雖然當然說很多人都把這次地震跟921拿來比但是相對來講這次的地震的強度對花蓮來講其實是相當影響非常深遠的所以說我不贊成那個國道六號的東移主要的原因在當初我們沒有在404月3號之前我們是因為希望能夠幫助東部台灣的發展但是現在的話其實有一個更迫切的東西也就叫做救人"},{"start":8837.036,"end":8857.591,"text":"人家說要致富先修路那要救人可能也要先修路而我會剛剛我在那個研究室裡面聽了我們不少之前委員的發言我發現一件事就是說我們針對這案子先不要預設立場那是不是能夠比較實質的才要先執行那才知道是否能夠可行"},{"start":8858.331,"end":8882.796,"text":"甚至這樣講我剛剛在我研究室是因為要開一個協調會針對基隆的一個八斗子凸堤碼頭可是八斗子凸堤碼頭如果去年或前在疫情前開始做的話可能只需要八千萬這經濟部漁業署的案子但是現在我問的時候就直接要到一億兩千萬以上也就是說整個這個多出50%的費用因為原物料的上漲"},{"start":8883.536,"end":8901.688,"text":"那同樣的我們現在看到國道六號東宜這個案子很有可能我們今天不趕快進行那明天或是明後年再過三年搞不好又因為又因為說有物料上漲包括現在不只是疫情之後我們遇到惡霧戰爭又遇到以壓戰爭所以說我會覺得這個東西盡快進行會比較好"},{"start":8905.47,"end":8926.543,"text":"那另外一方面呢我也必須幫我們花蓮的鄉親這次的難民講他們幫他們請願啦因為那天我有去的時候有特地有一個有一個有一個這個算是不能講記者會而是說說明會請他們幾位這些他們的那個災民代表出來講話他們提出了好幾個訴求我記得比較主要的五個"},{"start":8927.463,"end":8950.93,"text":"那第一個是他們很希望因為花蓮主要是以觀光業為主他們就很希望說我們交通部可以站出來因為交通部不是只有管交通還要管觀光能夠的話幫我們的幫這些未來他們來旅客的旅遊的工具來做出實質上的補貼像說里程數補貼啦之類讓他們旅遊的人會比較有意願在交通工具上面來到花蓮"},{"start":8951.85,"end":8978.384,"text":"那第二個是尤其是他們大客車因為現在花蓮的觀光業基本上全面斷吹的時候他們大客車他們就很擔心說這個因為當上前兩好不容易才熬過疫情那現在他們大客車很多時候很需要說這個時候跟比照疫情的時候來去做補貼甚至做出免稅像說今年免牌照稅燃料稅之類的希望說交通部可以體恤說花蓮這邊大客車有這樣的狀況"},{"start":8980.385,"end":8995.167,"text":"第三點他們有提出來是說是不是能夠在這邊建起交通部可以研究所謂的複合式的鐵公路的聯營讓說旅客可以過來花蓮的時候比較方便那第四點是有關民宿業者"},{"start":8995.788,"end":9022.27,"text":"民宿業者他們也是有提到說因為疫情才剛過我們有一個很好的先例不管是地震還是還是還是還是疫情都算是一種另類的都算是天災的一種那在這個情況之下呢民宿是不是可以比照疫情來去做出補助甚至他們講的比較具體的說能不能說在這半在這一年之內可不可以說他們當然是業者提出來說一年一個民宿可以補助五萬一個月補助五萬塊之類的"},{"start":9023.251,"end":9043.586,"text":"那是交通部跟中央政府的權限但是我會提出來是他們當下直接跟我講的第五個就是說他們有提到說國內外的觀光旅客來花蓮的時候是不是可以比照SARS而不是疫情是比照SARS的時候來去做出補助因為現在他們就直接提了現在很多人不敢去花蓮"},{"start":9044.326,"end":9073.376,"text":"因為花蓮現在的狀況其實蠻讓人家擔心什麼時候餘震不知道而且我們也清楚我們也清楚知道聽說太魯閣國家公園需要復育到本來的狀況就可能需要至少五年以上的時間才有可能把一些步道基本步道把它修好所以這些事情其實是他們這些災民直接向我反映的那我會希望說基於我們在過去兩年對不起過去三年的疫情時間我們常聽到一句話叫做同島一命"},{"start":9074.136,"end":9098.241,"text":"那其實現在是全台灣其實都是台灣人都是中華民國的國民是台灣人全體台灣人一起幫助花蓮的時候了而中央政府尤其是交通部就是主管交通建設也是主管觀光建設這時候應該做出領頭羊的姿態然後來幫助這次花蓮度過這個難關而甚至這樣講大破大立這個"},{"start":9100.001,"end":9118.428,"text":"國道六號東宜可以把危機化為轉機,然後實質上把台灣東部好好發展,促進整個區域平衡,甚至把花蓮變成所謂亞洲的後花園。我想請部長,這就是請部長把我剛剛講的話盡量拿回去考量。好。我要回了嗎?好。"},{"start":9119.228,"end":9138.658,"text":"我想很謝謝林委員對花蓮的關心。事實上我們最近在政務站副委員長已經在召開。他是整體跨部會的。剛才你談到的這個比如說牌照稅、棄藍費等等的也有在討論。那棄藍費是交通部管的。所以我們這部分是我們在處理。"},{"start":9139.378,"end":9153.994,"text":"那剛才談到那個聯票也討論就鐵路跟我們台灣關巴或是台灣好行這種套票這個在處理另外我跟委員報告現在公共署已經提出有三波的這種初步方案"},{"start":9154.855,"end":9170.047,"text":"就是說第一個包括禮數月的融資還有利息的一個補貼還有相關的這個稅件的減免這第一波第二波就是他們會把現在受災受災戶友的住在外面讓他去住旅館做一些補貼"},{"start":9171.088,"end":9187.234,"text":"第二個第三個就是光彎產業的這個振興方案這個包括自由行跟團客他現在都提出方案但是我希望這個光屬再把它寫完整一點那這個整個在行政院是一個大的package在討論各位提出來"},{"start":9187.714,"end":9188.794,"text":"接下來我們黃健豪委員花蓮"},{"start":9221.226,"end":9246.982,"text":"好,謝謝我們主席喔。那我們一樣先請部長。好,王部長。王議員好。嗨,部長好。這個相見日子不多了喔。但是我們這個施政還是延續的啦。首先當然是要來請教一下我一開始來談這個地震之後我想這個台鐵415車次在4月10號的時候一樣有遇到這個擦撞的這個落實的問題。那當然這個"},{"start":9249.923,"end":9271.903,"text":" ﹝討論﹞"},{"start":9272.148,"end":9290.262,"text":"為什麼特別提到公路局啊這個是貴部公路局在提供這個蘇花改、蘇花安的相關的這個報告裡面提到台九線160k路段的落實區是在這個蘇花安的評估的時候基本上公路局認為這一段是有落實的風險"},{"start":9291.303,"end":9307.462,"text":"但是台鐵公司卻覺得這一段沒有這個是非屬落實高風險路段那本席今天提出來是因為這個同屬交通部我們一直希望說政府的橫向聯繫要做好那當然如果今天事前橫向聯繫有做好那我想"},{"start":9308.274,"end":9337.193,"text":"你們就不會說這邊是這個有的一般公共局覺得落實區結果台鐵覺得這邊是非屬落實高層路段這邊都是同樣都是政府的報告啊都出自同一個部啊還沒有跨部會哦還是點部裡面的哦所以我就講說就是拜託一下就我覺得這種事情不要再發生了因為其實自從2021年泰魯格號事件之後全大家全台灣都很關心說關於這個軌道運輸的部分的安全性在偵測機制上面能夠更加落實"},{"start":9338.654,"end":9354.844,"text":"更加的去執行這個案子。那半話說今天提到的落實區的問題部長你可以回應一下未來在評估是不是高風險路段落實高風險路段的時候你們還會依據什麼樣的標準各單位之間後續有沒有整合的作業可以執行"},{"start":9355.484,"end":9376.137,"text":"是,很謝謝黃委員的指教,就是說的確這一次在台鐵自己的邊坡他覺得是沒有問題的可是在上面的這個台九的部分公務局是他等於在樹花庵的這個範圍內那從這一個公路的邊坡調到台鐵的軌道在過去他們的確沒有思考到這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":9379.139,"end":9391.913,"text":"由於花蓮這一次有800多次的這個阻震跟移震所以未來這個地方比如說從公路的東西會不會掉到鐵路是很重要所以我已經有跟兩個局長談了我們下一階段是做38處的這個告警系統"},{"start":9395.196,"end":9411.049,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":9411.192,"end":9431.24,"text":"好部長謝謝就希望說這個人民的安全是非常重要因為像你們現在提到說這個正在進行中的鐵路遍佈維護與管理規範草案這個是2023年12月29號的提出來也就去年年底提出來了但是這個草案其實也是源自於當初這個泰魯格號出事之後我想才會提出這個相關的規範草案"},{"start":9431.9,"end":9454.247,"text":"那想問一下這個目前的進度到哪裡因為你2021年發生之後到底2023年才提出年底才提出中間隔了兩年多三年現在2024年已經4月了很快要月底了所以這個草案到底什麼時候才會審議完成然後送進立法院裡面這個是不頒現在交通部在複審我們要加速來審查複審多加速"},{"start":9458.655,"end":9460.937,"text":" 你們每次都說加速啊,兩年多了。"},{"start":9477.534,"end":9502.392,"text":"好,因為他有那個專家審查的機制啦。我教數了。我來教數。好啦,沒關係啦。這個不為難你喔。我是希望盡快,因為如果再來一次喔,我想這個邊坡如果沒有維護好,如果再發生意外,其實這都是人命的損失喔。我要真的要誠摯來拜託。好,那接下來來談到我們這個今天主題要談到國道六號東延花蓮的問題。我想先跟部長確認一個消息喔,確認一個事情。這一次的這個花蓮的這個地震問題,"},{"start":9503.953,"end":9515.819,"text":"在沿線都有很多的損傷。那我想問一下,隧道裡面有沒有傳出災情?蘇阿改的部分沒有。蘇阿改沒有。就是蘇阿改的隧道沒有災情。那那個中橫?"},{"start":9517.447,"end":9544.696,"text":"蘇花公…那個中環這段有沒有…隧道內部有沒有處理在一起?好,為什麼特別提這個?就是其實今天為什麼特別提到國道六號東延花蓮要做這個路廊其實為什麼要就在這個事件之後我們發現隧道按照現代的工程它可能相對於直接遇到落石隧道裡面其實它相對來講是比較能夠保護這個用路安全的"},{"start":9545.666,"end":9553.996,"text":"那基本上我想問一下到底在這個能高隧道以這個能高隧道為例技術上工程面上能不能做到"},{"start":9554.721,"end":9580.379,"text":"他主要齁,能夠說應該是事其實沒有純單純就工程面技術面上我們先不管環評這些行政流程我先瞭解一下就現代的科技現代的工程技術做這樣子的隧道是可不可行的做不做得到跟委員報告齁那在一般的做的一個隧道的話齁那沒有說打不通的但是就是說他一個到底要怎麼來做齁他必須要有審慎的一個思考"},{"start":9582.885,"end":9607.306,"text":"我先舉個例子1996年瑞士在做阿爾賓山脈的聖戈達基縣隧道1996年就開始要做了1998、1999開始執行2016年通車但是回想一下其實阿爾賓山它也是有地震的它有地震的問題那它在上個世紀末它就在技術上覺得可以做也就做了"},{"start":9607.987,"end":9636.409,"text":"到前幾年來把它通車但時間起來正式的通車所以我才接著問說以台灣的這個地質環境跟這個工程面來講技術上能不能做到那當然過程裡面要去評估要去做這些事情我都我都可以理解我知道說人家這個幾年20年前30年前的技術上就評估可以做那到了現在而且又加上我們花蓮的這震災再加上我剛提到的隧道裡面確實在這一次的震災當中發現所有的可能"},{"start":9636.749,"end":9656.834,"text":" ﹖"},{"start":9658.696,"end":9676.671,"text":"我沒有反對啦,我正向來進行這件事情那剛才談到的這種能高隧道最重要就是說你的路廊你要怎麼挖這個隧道你當然不能經過那種什麼延爆的地區所以我們現在正在做這個地址的調查找路廊也是這個原因"},{"start":9677.591,"end":9701.266,"text":"那我個人是覺得這個整個東延案我們就加速來進行但是我是希望是循我們原來的程序加速進行好部長謝謝我才要強調25年前這個歐洲就做了打通這個隧道長達60公里的這個道路那我想這個台灣應該在工程面技術面科學上是可行的好謝謝好謝謝黃建豪委員"},{"start":9707.759,"end":9725.37,"text":"在此先作宣告本日有委員提出臨時提案一個案稍後在所有登記委員發言完畢以後隨即處理臨時提案另外後面工作人員聽到"},{"start":9727.919,"end":9750.605,"text":"現在12點20分發便當好不好我們邊質詢邊吃便當因為不是12點20就結束下面繼續我們繼續開會還要審查逐條審查所以方便你們就方便沒關係好不好那現在請我們許副葵委員發言許副葵委員發言"},{"start":9760.053,"end":9782.034,"text":"謝謝主席。有請王部長。部長請。委員部長午安。感謝部長這段期間對於屏東建設的支持跟關心。那也歡迎部長午二零之後來屏東去討啦。謝謝。我想請教部長就是我想"},{"start":9783.055,"end":9807.776,"text":"平東這個長期有幾個重大的交通建設那我們都一直在叫起綱來做啦針對可行性評估綜合規劃環評照這個程序來進行那我想這也是交通部給我們的一個答案那當然今天我們針對副委員提出這個特別的一個條例來講我想我比較個人比較擔心的是"},{"start":9810.959,"end":9815.024,"text":"這個之前我在質詢的時候一直問到部長這個是不是一條捷徑"},{"start":9817.112,"end":9840.224,"text":"該不會用這個方式來改觀我們剛剛所謂的程序的問題?這樣大家都跳過這個程序,那是不是每個立委都可以來這樣子提出這樣的要求?這個請部長回答。是的確,像委員提這個過去不敢在縣政府爭取的平安快速道路,那現在可行也通過了,就準備往下走了。高鐵的部分也一樣嘛,現在到綜合規劃、環評。"},{"start":9842.125,"end":9861.496,"text":" 那我們是覺得說第一個當然是全國一致有一個嚴肅專業的評估這個很重要所以我們是覺得現在在國道六號東延已經在進行中了那我剛才也跟我們局長談在這個地質調查跟路上踏竿跟可行性時間把它縮短"},{"start":9862.617,"end":9880.975,"text":"我們現在等於是這個也全力在進行中那只有經過這個很嚴肅的評估以後確定可行那未來才能確保一個安全的路所以我們是強調這個程序不是一個很環雜的程序是一個專業理性的一個評估的程序"},{"start":9881.756,"end":9907.185,"text":"部長 這個就是本期現在擔心的一個問題點因為針對這個花蓮這個大地震之後我們擔心會不會這個原本我們都知道環評的程序比較進行有一個很長的一個時間會不會經過這個地震的影響造成環評這個程序又會拉得更長造成我們所謂個性是一個重大交通建設受到很大的一個影響時間又會拉得更長會不會這個問題出現"},{"start":9910.566,"end":9934.753,"text":"我覺得現在的在省財環境我們有很多客服這種環境比如說有的地方不應該經過我們就繞過等等的部長應該不會受到這個影響部長另外我想剛剛傅永有提到所謂的VOT的興建的這個案子那根據本席的了解他先有提出一個叫做引進國際的一個主權財富基金的一個模式"},{"start":9935.433,"end":9961.499,"text":"我請教國內我們有目前有這樣的處理方式嗎?沒有,好像沒有。我了解。啊這有那個國安的問題嗎?這個我就不清楚。但是我跟委員報告BOT一般比如說我有個案子要BOT出去我要有一些資料對外公布就像國安這個了解大鵬灣我們大鵬灣不是這樣就是過去有一些資料出來但是國道六號東延還沒有這些最新的資料"},{"start":9962.179,"end":9986.635,"text":"所以我是覺得在重燃要VOT他應該有一個這個先期的一個評估已經有一些資料了國外才敢來他都不會從頭開始那我想說他這裡提到很多的相關的建議但是我們現在已經在進行了現在我們就是一個過去所有都走這樣然後也完成台灣現在所有看到的建設幾乎都是走這樣的程序"},{"start":9987.881,"end":10014.3,"text":"那我想說最重要是我們加速在這次地震以後我們加速來進行是比較重要對阿所以部長我們還是要照相關的程序來照期間來走另外就是這裡有點也要跟部長這個反應因為我想這次花蓮地震之後造成我們那個屏東公路整個車流量整個塞在我們西部包含我們屏東出現這個有史以來破紀錄的車流量"},{"start":10015.32,"end":10040.314,"text":"像這個4月4號那一天光是一個南下路段5.3萬的車流量那從獅子的草埔隧道到豐港10公里車速為此10到15公里那我想未來未來是不是應該也要加快屏東的這個交通建設往東部未來是一個開拓往東部走的一個很重要的一個路徑這部分部長的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":10040.914,"end":10069.193,"text":"現在這樣我跟委員報平南平南他到鴻港的時候一個就是往台九線然後一個往二六嘛事實上在這裡就往東部跟往墾丁的已經分散了所以那另外就是南北公路的拓寬事實上我們已經進行很久現在剩下幾段也在拓寬我想他最大的應該是在平南快速道路在鴻港地區的分流分流以後我覺得就是狀況會比較好一點"},{"start":10069.733,"end":10083.116,"text":"所以我們來加速,而且平壤快道是裡面最重要的部分對,這部分邀請我們也要加快啦,因為畢竟這個東部若出現狀況的時候往西部地平東過花東是一條很好的路啦這裡我們來加速,謝謝好,謝謝好,謝謝徐委員下一位請廖先祥委員發言"},{"start":10103.484,"end":10114.028,"text":"謝謝好謝謝我們召委喔那麻煩我們部長部長請鐵道局也一起好了好謝謝喔部長先請教一下我們系東線喔因為之前有流標嘛"},{"start":10115.144,"end":10143.351,"text":"我們西東縣之前有流標當然我跟新北市政府請教一下他們流標之後後續怎麼處置當然也有討論到一些原因好像是流標之後市政府會去詢問潛在的廠商這個標案是有哪一些問題其中好像有一項有提到說有講到國車國造的規格的問題廠商好像有一些疑義我不確定這可能部長不一定知道這個局長你知道嗎"},{"start":10146.884,"end":10167.285,"text":"目前應該沒有聽到有規格上面的問題沒有規格的問題好沒關係那我事後如果說新北市政府對於這個規格如果說廠商有問題的話那再來請教我們這個鐵道局啦就是因為現在都有規範我們的捷運建設基本上都要國車國照嘛那我想確認國車國照目前全台灣第一個案例是哪邊的"},{"start":10168.539,"end":10169.08,"text":"稍稍稍"},{"start":10190.479,"end":10204.718,"text":"會去可能確認因為畢竟國德國道可能就是一家廠商而已嘛一家廠商而已那他們可能會去確認一下規格沒關係這部分我們會後再來一起來協助新北市政府無論是規格的問題或者是經費的問題他們有提出嗎需要增加預算"},{"start":10205.619,"end":10233.576,"text":"目前還沒有嗎?好 那沒關係 那後續我們再一起推動好 謝謝局長那部長請教一下這個前一陣子這個大地震嘛那大家我們知道我們大地震完之後我們許多的軌道建設都會有這個巡查嘛那確認安全那才會行駛嘛那我想確認一下在公路系統啦我們也有許多的高架橋樑嘛那譬如說我們每天在走這個18標啊很多高架的路段我們在設計的時候是可以耐多少級的震度?"},{"start":10234.411,"end":10259.496,"text":"他很多次7級啦至少7級但是現在有一些舊的就沒有不符合新的大家都往7級現在的規範是7級但是就是要看他當初蓋的時候的一個規範那他符合當時的規範但是如果過去比如說過去是什麼5、6級我們會用結果補強方式來把它補強所以他你指的7級是指他所在地的那個嗎"},{"start":10260.436,"end":10276.376,"text":"那個傳遞到這邊的7級當地7級嘛那所以說這個強度應該是還蠻高的啦那7級的一個要求是指說因為我知道我們有一些規範比如說大鎮不倒嘛然後什麼中鎮怎樣小鎮可以普"},{"start":10277.377,"end":10305.596,"text":"基本上跟委員報告就是說我們在這個耐震的一個強度下的話他還可以維持一個行車的一個安全的就是人命的確保但他橋樑還是會有損傷的地方或多或少都有一些所以我們的七級就是確保他不會倒確保安全確保安全不會倒但是他可能有一些損傷就是看個案的情況這樣子那我們之後就包括每次地震之後也都會因為像鐵路運輸一定都是先停止"},{"start":10306.887,"end":10325.833,"text":"行駛嗎對不對那在這個公路系統的部分我們是大概會在多久時間內完成的一個巡視這樣子跟委員報告我們現在是整個國道部分有密布3000支的CCTV所以我們第一時間的話會在迅速都很短的時間內確認用CCTV全部都看一遍那看一遍之後確認沒有問題那我們就繼續來行駛這樣"},{"start":10328.334,"end":10337.754,"text":"所以CCTV有包含到有有有辦法到那麼密嗎?你如果說以三千隻的話大概多長一隻我們現在是一千一零六二公里"},{"start":10339.289,"end":10354.454,"text":"三千之一零六二公里,那大概平均．若算平均的話．所以我們可以確保我們的CCTV是能夠涵蓋．就是它的視野是可以涵蓋所有的路段．那你三千多字你要多少人才能夠把它看完．"},{"start":10364.553,"end":10383.024,"text":"所以我們交通中心的人都會集中一直來關注這些事那有沒有考慮過這個用AI輔助之類的來這個幫忙判讀這樣子目前還沒有看到有這些的發展那我們現在有那個後續的話我們會看國外的狀況是怎麼做尤其是日本"},{"start":10383.789,"end":10407.705,"text":"因為其實道路你鏡頭一樣的話那它的路況原則上會一樣這車子會動而已嘛那主結構原則上是不會動嘛那其實如果說用影像來判別的話相對起來我自己的判斷難易度應該不是那麼高啦如果說有一些小的小的損傷可能或許不一定有那麼容易判讀但是如果說我們應該可以在有比較大的損傷的時候應該是有辦法用這個AI系統來做給他一個判讀嘛"},{"start":10411.676,"end":10426.997,"text":"我們大概有一些列管的一個橋樑的部分會針對那些列管比較就是說我們評估上那個耐震的會有一些風險的地方的部分會特別去注意沒有我就其實只是討論一個時效性的問題啦就像我們大家都會希望說"},{"start":10427.858,"end":10457.858,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":10457.938,"end":10468.891,"text":"好謝謝謝謝好謝謝廖欣祥委員下一位請王世堅委員發言"},{"start":10484.714,"end":10506.153,"text":"主席,我請部長跟台鐵的董事長。給東部人一條安全回家的路。那這句話已經講了幾十年了。那也經過"},{"start":10509.358,"end":10535.063,"text":"兩黨輪流執政之後那也都各別在各黨執政時期都有發生過在往東部鐵路的意外事件那這一次我們有一個改善的六年計劃一百零四年到一百一十一年也花了不少錢花了十億元其實喔真的有效的話不要說十億元啦一百億元再多的金額都應該花"},{"start":10537.401,"end":10564.358,"text":"我今天跟你提起這件事情就是說我發現我們台鐵所布建所檢測的這些邊坡落石的地段滑動的地段我覺得齁過於草率啦花是有花了十億元沒錯但是你們檢測到的第一點你們檢測是用基本的目測目視"},{"start":10567.403,"end":10594.925,"text":"那第二點目視有認為有危險的地方你們才去加裝這些警示器啦偵測器這一些那事實上我都覺得這已經太被動而且也太少我就舉例你在整個台鐵這個沿線你們設的這些邊坡落石警示器你們有設26處"},{"start":10598.089,"end":10623.618,"text":"那這26處光高鐵啊高鐵只有在我們台灣的西岸光高鐵他就高達95處之多啦高鐵就95處他只在我們西岸更何況高鐵經過的地區大部分都屬於平民路段"},{"start":10624.745,"end":10645.13,"text":"那樣子的情況下他對於他會接觸到的邊坡他就那麼細緻詳細的去規劃去檢測去做警示器而你台鐵你通過了你不只是我們台灣西部地點你包括東北段整個環台灣的"},{"start":10649.172,"end":10649.972,"text":"這次發生問題的地點還不在你26處的偵測當中天啊"},{"start":10676.826,"end":10682.61,"text":"所以到底還有多少地方我們沒有檢測沒有去檢測到沒有去裝設監視系統所以還是個很大的未知數"},{"start":10690.543,"end":10718.822,"text":"所以這個部分喔那個部長你的看法呢這個部分要怎麼加強我跟委員報告的確在過去台鐵他有的用鋼軌裝來當柵欄然後在邊坡做一些燃石頭的一些設備然後我們後來這個26處已經做好現在我們另外一個計畫做38處那這一次剛剛委員提到的的確這一次是從這個上面的公路的邊坡調到鐵路的軌道"},{"start":10720.843,"end":10737.712,"text":"那他的確在他檢查裡面是鐵路的背後是OK的但是從上面公路這樣掉下來所以這個是在這次這個所以是從公路上那部長你這又提醒了我另外一點結果我們台鐵多妙他所檢測的範圍他說啊20公尺"},{"start":10742.187,"end":10768.726,"text":"範圍內才是他欸超過20公尺的一公那要看看所有全人是誰那很多那個那個就是他一推456就推給公務局或者推給其他邊坡那些坡地地主的身上這不是很奇怪嗎20公尺你20公尺怎麼算的啦這次我們觀看地震那個大石頭那個來源都不止20公尺啦不是嗎"},{"start":10769.898,"end":10792.461,"text":"所以你20公尺怎麼算的呢?局長你的算法是怎麼算的?欸那個董事長,你們怎麼算法?你是這一部分專業欸!你是鐵路局從基層一路上來的欸!你應該對鐵路系統的安全、它的檢測、它的布測這些偵測系統,你應該更謹慎才對啊不是嗎?是。"},{"start":10794.708,"end":10819.291,"text":"跟委員報告這個20公尺是指我們路權開始計算那的確啦像這一次我們這個地震發生在公路側的邊坡的這件事情我們未來會加強跟公路總局那邊的一個聯繫我們不會把這個加強跟公路總局的聯繫公路總局很多至少我覺得我光提供一樣"},{"start":10820.458,"end":10847.868,"text":"他有召詢啦就是說重大的地震事故天災之後人家他們啦會針對每一處可能的地點他們去做召詢每一次一起動連著就七天我請問啊我們鐵路局可有啦鐵路公司可有沒有吧我們也有我們自己巡軌的一個規定"},{"start":10849.298,"end":10865.692,"text":"你們有你們選舉的規定?怎樣的規定?至少我在你所有的報告裡面看不到。他是招詢。人家他早上一早就出動啦。你夜詢嗎?我跟委員剛才談到的有的叫定檢。一個叫特別檢查。就地震以後他們都馬上發動這個特別檢查。"},{"start":10867.634,"end":10897.157,"text":"然後我們在這個交通部有一個系統會通知他說哪一些地方要特別檢查這個我在做的確剛剛委員提到那個我覺得很重要就是說他的現在的危害已經不是只有看自己路線的部分他上面有公路他知道說上面有可能下來所以我覺得在這一次我也請他們兩個局要看一下像這一種從這個公路邊坡掉到鐵路的邊坡然後掉到軌道這件事情在後續的落實告警系統就要去處理"},{"start":10897.557,"end":10899.378,"text":"謝謝王世堅委員的發言。下一位請許宜貞委員發言。"},{"start":10924.755,"end":10927.148,"text":"主席請交通部王部長王部長請"},{"start":10933.949,"end":10953.916,"text":"議員好部長好我想請教一下就是我們0403的地震之後剛剛看你們的報告目前雖然已經修復了部分但是目前對外的交通還是相當不方便請問交通部計畫在多久的時間內會讓花蓮通往外的這個交通能夠恢復正常是我剛委員報告"},{"start":10954.796,"end":10971.767,"text":"那個鐵路部分在這個4月3號隔天4月4號就通了啦所以雙向鐵路沒問題公路就是一個是台9跟台8那台9現在的確下清水條斷了以後我們現在是用一個變橋的方式比較不方便單向"},{"start":10972.307,"end":10998.921,"text":"我的意思是說到底大概所有的海、陸、空通通都可以恢復正常的都在大概是什麼時候?現在都恢復但是就是比較不方便現在是會比較不方便然後我們有定的時程就是大概什麼時候可以恢復正常夏青水橋的部分就是年底會把它修好所以應該是所有的重建工作都在年底前會這個對外的交通的部分就中場的部分在年底"},{"start":10999.401,"end":11026.327,"text":"是不是可以請這個部長因為這是對花蓮人來說是非常不方便希望能夠加快然後另外就是在這次的地震當中因為其實花蓮最重要都是以觀光業為主旅遊業為主那現在這一次經過地震之後其實在疫情就已經造成了他們的一個衝擊那地震之後更是雪上加霜所以觀光署表示已經在年底五月到年底的協助振興方案"},{"start":11026.787,"end":11054.317,"text":"希望在五月初能夠順利推動。我想請教一下中央行政院是不是可以同意這個計畫的補助經費。我們現在大概有關公署的部分。就是說第一波就是禮數月的信用保證跟利息貸款。然後第二波就是受災戶讓他到旅館居住的補助。那第三個就是我們對於自由行跟團客的補助。"},{"start":11054.997,"end":11074.074,"text":"那現在觀光署已經有初步方案但是因為行政院是有一個各部會、跨部會的一個協助花蓮的一個方案那我們現在這個計畫會提到這一個來談是,除了花蓮我覺得台東可能也需要因為它最近的觀光的這個流人可以一直不斷地下降"},{"start":11074.654,"end":11102.16,"text":"另外再請教您就是發展觀光條例第70之二條規定本條例在中華民國104年1月22號修正前就是這個相關的這個條文在10年內可以向地方主管機關申請旅遊業的登記喔那但是因為前幾年遇到新冠疫情的關係所以這些單位包括商客大樓、青年活動中心、教室會館、這個國軍總管跟學校實習旅館這些都沒有辦法在10年內完成登記"},{"start":11102.84,"end":11120.762,"text":"但這些往往都是公安課他們住宿的會去使用的地方而且有不少的從業人員本期在這邊要求是不是可以在展延五年以輔導上述的單位取得合法的證照或轉型以維護他們員工的權益公安部署有在研究我請副署長說明好不好來請"},{"start":11123.624,"end":11140.873,"text":"是,謝謝委員關心這個議題那我想如果說像一些的香客大樓或者是說有一些不是營利性質的比如說這個香客大樓是這個水洗那個添那個香油錢的話那他就不計那個營業的那個事實所以這個不會在我們的那個規範那個範圍之內是"},{"start":11143.254,"end":11146.096,"text":"另外就是4月10日的馬席二會習近平公開表示樂見大陸民眾多去祖國報道"},{"start":11163.887,"end":11186.721,"text":"這個看一看不少人都認為這對於兩岸觀光可以很快的鬆綁也讓旅遊樂看到曙光所以在11號的時候我們的觀光航空股就紛紛上漲代表著大家都樂觀的看待此事所以交通部是不是可以先表達善意取消日前公佈的進團令重新開放我方組團附入旅遊重振旅遊業的這個商機"},{"start":11187.722,"end":11216.741,"text":"由我們這個率先的表態展現善意也代表我們更加希望兩岸能夠重啟觀光業請問部長是否可以因為我們現在3月1號到5月底現在在開放中對我知道那我只能是您6月開始的進行反應現在就在釋出善意我們要等回應昨天我跟觀光業稍微座談一下他們也事實上比如對岸的國台辦等等的也是因為這個馬歇二會裡面所提的這個部分他們也在探詢"},{"start":11217.702,"end":11238.555,"text":"所以說部長對於這個取消競團運營也樂觀其成是嗎?如果對方也過來的話雙向這個往來我是支持的。好,我們希望能夠協助李友業來共度這個難關。謝謝。好,謝謝許玉珍委員。下一位請麥玉珍委員發言。"},{"start":11257.361,"end":11260.386,"text":"邀請交通部部長謝謝主席麥偉豪"},{"start":11267.57,"end":11286.919,"text":"首先對於花蓮發生大地震我想大家都非常遺憾跟關心但我們發現說只是地震每逢像颱風、大雨的那種天災我們就會知道說基礎的交通建設有多麼重要"},{"start":11287.679,"end":11315.144,"text":"我相信每個東部的居民心裡都會有這樣子的一個願望是說想要一條回家的道路當然也是很慶幸這一次地震不是發生在連駕期間所以我們看到這一次的地震在樹花公路造成一名連結車的司機被落石砸中就是當場死亡"},{"start":11316.424,"end":11336.858,"text":"下清水橋整座攤販的全線中斷多地方攤販所以請問我們的交通部蘇安花的改善計畫到底要多久現在的困境到底在哪裡"},{"start":11338.01,"end":11343.857,"text":"國道六號東延花蓮現在也沒有困境,就要積極推動。目標就是121年完工。現在環評小組2月審購,我們這個月底會再送進去。趕5月12號的大會。過的話我們就是來見。"},{"start":11355.171,"end":11379.085,"text":"那剛剛所提的在整個蘇安的這個路線我們事實上從可行性到綜合規劃是不斷的優化比如說過去在河壬道崇德這一段是兩個短隧道我現在弄一個10.2公里的長隧道避免它裸露在外面的機會所以我們現在整個都是積極優化提供這個花東一條安全回家的路"},{"start":11380.302,"end":11402.989,"text":"好,謝謝我們的部長除了花東地區以外還有一個地方也是要安全回家的路就是我們的中橫公路的復建計畫從921到現在這個大地震的中斷我們台中的路線就離山地區的居民已經等了25年了"},{"start":11404.309,"end":11424.753,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":11424.893,"end":11453.999,"text":"所以希望說我們就是大學都畢業了小孩子都嫁人了到現在還沒有通所以所以我們每一個縣市就是像我們台中這個離山這邊也需要一個回家的路希望說我們要不只是我們的花蓮所以這已經地震25年了所以今年呢在2月16號行政院終於核定可行計畫但是"},{"start":11455.497,"end":11475.613,"text":"要依照這中衡的變道還有計畫說在13年才完工這個是我們台中人就是等無啦等到脖子都寡啦等無到所以請問部長這個期程有沒有可能縮短還是有沒有其他的方案"},{"start":11477.015,"end":11503.331,"text":"委員報告,這個部分他前面921以後他經過十幾年叫做讓他地形、地貿穩定的時間那我們是估這個115以後可以進入施工的階段所以我們就提前做這個可行性那剛才談到就是古灌到德基水庫這一段現在已經方案也找出來了就是新的路線的方案找出來"},{"start":11503.891,"end":11526.346,"text":"那後續就是他因為後續還有一個環評然後這個綜合規劃的一個階段那我們要加速了我們加速來進行好這拜託我們交通部你們對政府來說只是一個計畫對我們的民眾在那邊來說是我們可以說有一個回家的路這個部分我們要拜託拜託我們的部長謝謝好謝謝蔓玉春委員發言"},{"start":11534.232,"end":11558.199,"text":"下一位請謝一鳳委員發言。謝一鳳、謝一鳳不在。陳庭菲委員發言。陳庭菲、陳庭菲不在。蔡易瑜委員發言。蔡易瑜、蔡易瑜不在。下一位請邱若驊委員發言。好,謝謝主席。有請部長。部長請。"},{"start":11564.341,"end":11593.465,"text":"好,部長好辛苦了那本席在上個月的時候25號在交通委員會諮詢的時候有提到講到花東地區的居民渴望一條安全回家的路那花東地區的居民也需要帶動地方發展的重大建設那花東的交通在這次0403之後那也讓原本的蘇花公路成為重災區那數百次的余震還有落石不斷重創花東的交通那花蓮和台東的居民還有很多民眾都想要知道究竟何時可以給花東地區"},{"start":11594.125,"end":11616.419,"text":"安全可靠快速的交通系統那王部長您也在本月11號受訪的時候說到現在花蓮最重要的就是蘇花安的建設讓整條蘇花公路變得安全那本期要請教部長要如何全力加速蘇花公路安全計畫那環評出省若通過可以確保2026年開始動工"},{"start":11619.961,"end":11620.921,"text":"三二年、晚工。"},{"start":11638.047,"end":11658.496,"text":"然後這次大家說要改的這個說要完全無損所以我們是覺得我個人覺得在過去做了三段中間的現在把它連起來這個是應該是目前是一個花東最重要的一條建設那目前是這樣環評在二月審查小組有些意見我們現在這個月底會再送進去"},{"start":11659.096,"end":11678.485,"text":"那我是有了解好像他們午夜會有個環評大會如果可以的話就按照這個行程來進行就是以2032年、1、2、1年完工當我們最重要的目標那4月10號的時候夜晚發生普悠瑪號在花蓮的和平站南端插撞到"},{"start":11681.847,"end":11692.533,"text":"地震落石讓乘客飽受驚嚇。台鐵行車安全改善計畫在這次花蓮大地震發生後還有哪些部分需要再做加強?有沒有盤點?"},{"start":11694.058,"end":11710.413,"text":"他在太魯閣事件以後他是在做了26處的落實告警的系統那現在還有一筆經費已經核定就是再加38處那他是在明年以前會完工"},{"start":11711.314,"end":11725.832,"text":"我上次提到就是說因為你這個花蓮地區大概阻震跟移震800多次所以它的整個地質可能都鬆動了所以我有特別請這個台鐵在評估比如說在公路的下方"},{"start":11726.852,"end":11742.244,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":11742.426,"end":11767.987,"text":"是,那請問黃建豪委員有問到目前的那個審議進度就是關於鐵路邊坡維護還有管理的草案嘛,那本席想要問就是請問還有在公路還有國道高鐵方面有沒有完善的相關規範?他那個規範是重點沒有規範他現在有他的規定在做啦,但是他做更完善就是說過去在邊坡就是規定這個定檢還有特別檢查等等的相關的一些規定"},{"start":11768.607,"end":11788.016,"text":"我們現在趕快就是這個修正的報告現在本來是說年底才有辦法審我看能不能再加速再加速OK好那本夕昨天到台七線40公里處的八林大橋因為遭坍塌的大石頭撞擊橋墩那進行會刊"},{"start":11789.477,"end":11808.957,"text":"我們台七線也是桃園通往宜蘭路上的其中有一個大漢橋會館那可以從簡報看到那北橫一帶是受遊客歡迎的景點那也要請交通部和相關單位檢視邊坡還有道路安全那台七線的大漢災害路段有設置如這個照片我們所看到"},{"start":11810.599,"end":11828.433,"text":"若實為地動的監測系統,請教部長各地公路的設置情況如何?各位報告,因為這個部分的話是屬於就是說委託陽明交大研究團隊一個事辦的一個計畫那這一個部分的話就是因為大漫路段現在還在這一個修復"},{"start":11829.714,"end":11852.459,"text":"那所以就是說通行的時候畢竟就是說它是一個大面積的一個崩塌的一個路段所以只是就是說這個是一個就是說這個落實的一個這個為地動的一個系統那所以就是說如果說有落實的話就是說大概會有一些警示那不過就是說主要是因為說現在大漫路段還在修復可能在通行的過程中"},{"start":11852.859,"end":11869.214,"text":"有一些低落實的風險先有一個告警那不過我們想說這個示範的一個這個系統如果說未來如果說有成效也不錯的話想我們也可以來演繹來推動所以目前只有大漫路段使用這個系統是是是好謝謝部長謝謝邱委員好謝謝朱洛豪委員的發言下一位請鄭天才委員發言"},{"start":11899.614,"end":11916.379,"text":"主席、部長、公路總局執政"},{"start":11928.536,"end":11953.891,"text":"政務委員好部長好還有局長還有我們交通部的所有的官員我們去回顧一下蘇花改部長這次蘇花改這個零四零三地震都沒有怎麼樣嗎沒錯蘇花改當時蘇花改的路段是先做以前災害"},{"start":11955.353,"end":11955.593,"text":"我們看這個蘇花蓮"},{"start":11985.046,"end":12009.559,"text":"民國97年11月10號行政院合定這個可行性的研究兩年多之後就動工了有沒有一百年1月29號兩年多就動工了當時是比較困難的這個蘇花安一百零八年行政院合定"},{"start":12011.366,"end":12031.531,"text":"行政院核定然後開始進入環評整個108年行政院核定可行性研究到現在你們本來預估111年進入環評結果交通部一直到去年112年11月21號才送到環境部"},{"start":12036.84,"end":12065.663,"text":"然後環境部在今年的3月20號召開環評會議出審有意見所以這個部分我上次也跟次長講了交通部公務總局要跟環評委員因為環評委員換了跟以前的跟現在的不一樣要跟他們說明了蘇阿改的狀況跟現在蘇阿安"},{"start":12066.944,"end":12094.566,"text":"這個時候沒有通過很奇怪啊所以這個不會把他說明清楚尤其他們也有疑慮你就給他看南回公路有沒有南回公路也是往海邊去蓋的也有啊這個因為蘇花改蘇花案也有嘛有一部分是這樣要讓他清楚知道以前都通過為什麼現在不能過"},{"start":12095.882,"end":12099.832,"text":"要說服說服的方式就是用事實來讓他證明"},{"start":12101.243,"end":12128.111,"text":"可以嗎?現在二月的小組有意見他是原來跟我們講五月底送進去我們現在這個四月底就要送進去了那的確這個蘇哈路郎因為在太魯閣國家公演他要求四季的環評所以有一個一年的時間在這個環評被拖到這個時間但是我覺得這個是目前我認為在花蓮台東最重要的一條路我們必須加速來進行"},{"start":12130.25,"end":12153.87,"text":"對,確實應該要加速地來進行而且要一定要去把它說明清楚讓他們去了解還可以有個案例是什麼案例北回鐵路1980年2月1號正式通車典禮部長也清楚嗎北回鐵路這一次0403地震"},{"start":12156.894,"end":12180.294,"text":"凌晨就經過檢視檢視之後就安全了都沒有怎麼樣就通車了嘛對不對4月4號的凌晨就通車了給回鐵路這個就是很好的案例所以這個部分的就是要讓環評人員那個瞭解當初啊你看6年就工期6年工期啊"},{"start":12181.65,"end":12182.29,"text":"稍後請黃峰凱委員發言。等一下。"},{"start":12213.169,"end":12238.13,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請王部長部長請好部長好部長本來想說是不是還有機會明年本期回交通委員會的時候能夠看到您那但是看起來說不定你還有新的職務安排是不是沒有沒有目前有沒有新的職務安排沒有沒有完全沒有那也沒有人徵詢過您"},{"start":12239.4,"end":12246.055,"text":"沒有都沒有那之後勒我休息一下好久沒休息了應該沒有考慮要退休吧"},{"start":12246.843,"end":12276.143,"text":"我覺得也可以部長本席說實在話一直在強調交通就是要專業也因此用專業的態度做為每一天都可以為國家來做事那交通部跟外交部也不一樣其實我覺得交通部長不好做一個事情發生部長可能就要有負起責任我們看外交部說斷了8個邦交國都可以不用下台這也是非常離譜跟滑稽的事情"},{"start":12276.977,"end":12284.856,"text":"那我現在比較想請教的是說針對這一次的花蓮地震4月10號有據時入侵到我們這個鐵軌"},{"start":12286.857,"end":12312.579,"text":"其實這個議題我覺得一直都是一個老問題但是到底我們台鐵或是說到底我們交通部有沒有跟國人說明清楚大概說實話0402那時候這個泰魯格號的時候就已經有講了我們那時候也講說邊坡的一個防護跟這個軌道入侵的系統那當時不是也跟我們講是說要花20億來建置相關的一個費用相關的一個系統"},{"start":12314.961,"end":12329.087,"text":"那那個時候要人給人、要錢給錢我們也全力支持那怎麼會這一次又再發生巨石撞擊出軌、捕幽馬號巨石撞擊出軌然後才質疑說原來那個地方根本沒有警告系統沒有裝這個警告系統"},{"start":12330.171,"end":12356.018,"text":"現在那個公園報告以後我們做26處啦那後來我們發覺不夠所以他現在有一個經委也有要做38處那應該是我覺得這樣子喔部長能不能告訴國人一下全我們鐵道的路線裡面我們有多少這個公里長度那我們比例到底有多少是有含瓜在這個路徑鐵道路徑系統"},{"start":12358.837,"end":12380.809,"text":"什麼意思?你跟我們講26處他到底是一個點一個範圍還是一個路段一個範圍是 那個範圍到底有沒有含刮到多少面積因為其實你這樣看起來我們那時候一直講到26處我們當時候講說26處可能把台灣大部分這種危險的範圍都把它含刮進去那你現在又在一個落實之後你來講是說我們26處不夠要增加38處"},{"start":12384.69,"end":12401.74,"text":"那不就是當初泰魯格號事件的時候就讓大家覺得是玩假的嗎?如果你那個38處也認為是說是重要的那為什麼在當初沒有把它編列?當初就應該是26加38啊那你現在26處做完了大家以為沒有問題了以為安全了結果又發生了落實"},{"start":12403.632,"end":12405.694,"text":"二十六數是當時看就是用太魯閣在這個清水隧道裡面這個狀況跟他類似的就把它裝了"},{"start":12423.45,"end":12444.365,"text":"然後後來我們覺得這個不夠所以又加了這個38處現在在進行那不夠是因為這一次有落實而且這一次落實好加債好加債沒有造成這種慘案這種傷亡38處要很加速來做什麼時候可以做好?這38處最終在明年中明年中?預計要花多少錢?"},{"start":12449.513,"end":12469.207,"text":"三十八處的話大概這可能要查一下我查一下這跟委員報告好不好我跟委員補充啦就是說二十六處崔義雄做了奧米斯節不過三十八處這一次在花蓮的這個八百多次的組"},{"start":12470.128,"end":12492.176,"text":"議長﹖"},{"start":12493.669,"end":12520.658,"text":"當時我們講太魯閣號的時候就講說台鐵跟高鐵最大不同是高鐵他沿線全線都有鐵道入侵系統嘛警示系統那台鐵沒有嘛所以我們才會講是說那是不是台鐵應該也要加速來裝置當時也是期待是說是不是全線也要裝那當然有一些路段可能相對來講是可能真的評估沒有必要所以沒有裝可是至少我們也認為是說你應該要見其就見其尤其這是生命財產安全沒有人會反對"},{"start":12521.943,"end":12544.491,"text":"那你之前26處裝多少錢26處大概接近4億4億那現在38處38處是6.1億6.1億加起來不過10億我講不客氣的你當初泰魯格號事件發生之後你跟我們講要20億要30億我們一定也會同意國人也一定會同意因為什麼這個就是安全問題"},{"start":12546.414,"end":12557.419,"text":"但那個時候我們也都一直授權我們也是一直要告訴交通部門告訴台鐵部門講說提出來我們希望泰魯格號就最後一次了那結果你們講26億26處4億"},{"start":12561.446,"end":12589.589,"text":"結果現在又發生這個事情真的是很好家在沒有再發生不然的話我們講是說這除了天災外這可能是人禍那未來38處裝完之後還會不會有需求如果說這只是6億38處是6億那我真的建議你們再多花一個月的時間徹底的清查徹底的去了解你說38處我甚至講72處我相信交通委員會我相信我們黨團一定都會支持"},{"start":12590.851,"end":12596.023,"text":"不要每一次都是說一頓、做一頓、頭痛一頭、腳痛一腳 這就很典型的頭痛一頭、腳痛一腳"},{"start":12596.732,"end":12624.046,"text":"好,這個宏偉我覺得這次花蓮地震以後我事實上已經跟他們談過了如果要加金會我們全力支持我是覺得經過於這個地震以後他的整個這個地質的狀況都變得改變了啦他可能要更廣來看這個課題真的讓國人安心、安全我希望這次王國材部長任內要離開前真的為國人留下一個好一點的這個回憶好不好好,謝謝好,謝謝宏偉委員"},{"start":12629.116,"end":12641.4,"text":"下一位請張宏祿委員發言。張宏祿、張宏祿不在。張家俊委員發言。張家俊、張家俊不在。林益君委員發言。林益君、林益君不在。羅敏采委員發言。羅敏采、羅敏采不在。請林國誠委員發言。好,主席請部長。"},{"start":12664.361,"end":12682.845,"text":"今天在質詢你啊心裡面有一一不捨在我個人不管是當議員到當立委來我看到的講求專業的是王國材這不是拍馬屁是因為我私底下請教你"},{"start":12684.201,"end":12705.054,"text":"我比較質問的就傅崐萁總召提出花蓮的有兩個案、三個案我就看本會同仁一直在批評這個批評那個但是我私底下請教你你確確實實覺得花蓮的交通是要解決的"},{"start":12706.397,"end":12717.829,"text":"可是我們今天說實在的你專業走了以後又來換一個政治那就更糟糕更糟糕所以我還是要呼籲未來的賴政府"},{"start":12719.281,"end":12744.348,"text":"交通的事情是要用交通解決不是用政治解決所以我還是真的蠻希望下一屆的部長真的最少要像王國材這樣講專業再講政治不要先講政治再來講專業所以本席雖有依依不捨但是就事論事還是要來談國道六號的問題"},{"start":12748.052,"end":12752.118,"text":"我們為什麼不想一想我們從藍頭到花蓮花蓮到藍頭"},{"start":12755.68,"end":12783.82,"text":"本來是二十公里而已欸你偏偏的一定要繞了三百五十公里才可以到花蓮才可以到南投欸情何以堪欸南島也是人欸花蓮也是人欸哪裡台北哪裡對亞都都是人欸台灣人民那為什麼要不同的待遇就是因為有政治力的介入"},{"start":12784.5,"end":12804.328,"text":"所以我就感覺到很奇怪啊建設都不談專業先談政治再來談專業這個本末導致基本上本席是非常不贊同的另外一個部長你有沒有想一想為什麼他們一直要提這個案"},{"start":12805.664,"end":12834.864,"text":"這個也是被你們逼的啦三十年來你們說要做我不管是梳化膏、梳化什麼、梳化鐵或者國道六號都被你們騙到這陣子已經三十年了住在花東地區的人住在沿線的人我跟你說剛才我看到傅君祺總召在播放那些東西我就瞬間有一個想法如果"},{"start":12835.384,"end":12853.729,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":12854.129,"end":12877.865,"text":"將心比心三十年來您大家都專家都在做價位都政治林佳宇專業這不好所以最後啦也有人在講啊說啊這我現在開三千億啊開三千億啊問題無解決開三兆也是一樣啊沒有問題沒有解決你花一塊錢都是浪費公帑所以三千億不要再講"},{"start":12878.726,"end":12905.385,"text":"另外一個就是說哦那裡啊岩石啊地震啊什麼東西我跟你講啦部長技術啦現在都可以突破不要用台灣人民的想法我坦白跟你講任何再困難的技術都有辦法去處理所以我說實在啦我住在台北我本身屏東人當然跟我無關可是我就看不過去嘛"},{"start":12907.737,"end":12925.865,"text":"所以我希望,雖然依依不捨,但是你有這功能行為,我希望下一屆的部長不要再政治臨界專業啦。所以博弈,我要拜託啦,你不用回覆啦,因為你回覆,心裡話你不敢說啦。政治臨界專業,我還是要呼籲。"},{"start":12927.927,"end":12944.579,"text":"專業很重要不要用政治凌駕專業所以拜託這個案件該做得到要做這是本期對交通部所有的人員一個啟齊啦好你要不用回覆啦謝謝好謝謝林國臣委員現在處理臨時提案本日既有一個案子請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":12958.993,"end":12982.123,"text":"宣讀臨時提案。借與0403花蓮地震造成地形地貌重大改變地勢更加脆弱且山區環境極不穩定又高速公路局成於110年12月召開國內專家顧問諮詢會議諮詢國外專家初步評估需穿越中山中央山脈不確定因素高途工程技術困難度極高並具有"},{"start":12982.623,"end":13002.547,"text":"照價高供其長環境衝擊巨大行車安全及防救災疑慮然安全回家的路不僅是基於交流便利之交通平權更應適利於安全至上本草案涉及重大交通建設之推動自規劃至執行等過程須經過詳實可行性評估嚴謹確認符合計劃效率為避免本草案審查過程過於長處"},{"start":13011.909,"end":13033.515,"text":"草率應給予委員們就法案內容充裕之討論餘地以其使立法過程更為周詳勿使,遠要求交通部針對重大交通建設推動應循序漸進、新完成地質調查及踏刊研究,再次研究成果進行可行性評估,提案人委員林俊憲等。宣讀完畢。好,請問交通部有沒有意見?報告委員會有沒有意見?交通部沒有意見喔?各位委員有沒有意見?"},{"start":13041.889,"end":13047.149,"text":"有啊有盧委員你要不要說明一下?"},{"start":13054.232,"end":13054.252,"text":"委員長"},{"start":13084.312,"end":13106.147,"text":"整個的內容我覺得是針對立法委員是針對我們不是在講交通部就是應該立法委員應該要怎麼樣怎麼樣那對交通部反而基本上沒有提出任何的事情完全沒有對他們一些要求那我想說這個部分對委員這邊的一個討論因為待會直接國道六號東延"},{"start":13107.868,"end":13121.838,"text":"我們花蓮的這個案子本來就會逐條做一個討論直接在這個討論中一一來可以來表達意見所以我個人是不希望第二段的有一些針對立委的這個文字在裡面謝謝不是好那個副院長"},{"start":13128.447,"end":13155.478,"text":"我剛剛在這裡聽那個林國成委員針對政治不應該凌駕專業本人深有同感我也覺得政治不應該凌駕專業民進黨幾位委員同仁所提的這個臨時提案很清楚的原要求交通部針對重大交通建設推動應循序漸進先完成地質調查及踏勘研究再"},{"start":13156.522,"end":13176.221,"text":"是研究成果進行可行性評估。我想請問要求交通部做這個案子做這樣的一個行政程序不是因為對專業的重視這不是國家在面對重大交通建設所該進行的程序嗎?就算今天最後"},{"start":13177.342,"end":13202.961,"text":"國民黨所提、傅崐萁委員所提的版本通過了難道我們不需要進行難道我們的程序不是先進行地質調查、探勘研究再進行可行性評估嗎這個叫做專業啦所以呢我不知道反對這個案子那接下來就算傅崐萁委員的版本通過了請問請問一下諸位委員"},{"start":13205.097,"end":13230.315,"text":"你們該怎麼進行這個這個國道六號延升花東的這個案子所以我想民進黨委員所提的這個提案主要要提醒交通部程序就是這樣走啦那我不知道如果大家要反對這個程序這樣走那我倒想請教那大家接下來認為怎麼樣表決過了交通部連"},{"start":13232.113,"end":13256.248,"text":"地質探勘什麽都不用做肯定不會不用做直接蓋嗎這個叫做政治凌駕專業以上做這樣的報告好啊謝謝副院長林俊賢委員謝謝主席各位同仁剛剛提到的地質調查報告也許我們很多同仁不曉得"},{"start":13257.518,"end":13274.126,"text":"國道六號東延到花蓮的路廊探勘及地質調查進行到一半這是112年2023年12月14日展開也就是說目前正在進行地質調查當中預計是2026年完成地質的調查"},{"start":13279.83,"end":13292.321,"text":"所以是地質調查是已經開始而且調查到一半那如果按照我們副會計委員裡面他寫的他說立即啟動可靜性評估這個有衝突啦應該是你先完成地質調查報告"},{"start":13295.075,"end":13321.744,"text":"以它作為基礎那可靈性評估才能進行嘛所以其實我們這個提案也不是反對啦這個臨時提案的內容它是說先完成地質調查及踏竿的研究因為它是進行到一半了政府已經花錢花到一半了你現在在突然間要求它要立即啟動可靈性評估我們認為這樣有所衝突所以才提出這樣的一個臨時提案啦以上補充好蘇議員"},{"start":13328.271,"end":13353.165,"text":"謝謝主席那就是針對這個國道六號東延到這個花蓮這個建設案那我們的提案事實上不是在反對這個建設因為我們知道重大交通建設不是一觸可及的然後也需要長時間的一個推動所以剛剛林國松委員的發言我也深表贊同就是不能政治凌駕轉眼"},{"start":13354.226,"end":13354.446,"text":"好謝謝蘇委員"},{"start":13383.223,"end":13406.816,"text":"所有人等一下齁,早上蔡副委員長講,我們要尊重憲法嘛,對不對?像馬祖那邊大橋,我跟你報告一下副委員長,馬祖大橋可信性評估也過了,綜合規劃也出來了,技術也沒問題,預算也沒問題,錢就是不給啊,是不是?"},{"start":13407.645,"end":13432.13,"text":"這是什麼?這是政治凌駕專業。這個才叫政治凌駕專業。所以我剛才講的我也不想再講了。這個傅崐萁委員有沒有提說,有沒有講說多少錢啊?他有沒有說一定要幹什麼?只是說政府重視一下嘛,是不是?好,那林國正委員歡迎。"},{"start":13433.953,"end":13460.861,"text":"我想民進黨提這個案子我個人的看法當然是OK啦那這個是不是在最後第三段我是不是建議比較綜合性尊重交通部這裡在作業因為後面這兩段我認為都應該一定要做有沒有可能要求交通部這個部分改為建請交通部或"},{"start":13461.701,"end":13489.293,"text":"後面再加一個研議那這個問題就由交通部他們去做評估有沒有可能這樣可能大家也這個提案當然是沒有問題能不能說要求改為建議那這樣比較柔性一點這樣的話可能大家因為你們提的這些最後是由這個交通部他們來做後面這些動作我是建議這樣啦大家參考看看"},{"start":13491.038,"end":13515.453,"text":"要求改建請行不行?可以喔?要求改為建請。然後研議交通部研議。研議喔?原要求交通部研議。原建請。原建請啦,原建請。原建請交通部研議。好,那副委員有意見嗎?提案人做一個說明。"},{"start":13518.904,"end":13539.431,"text":"剛剛陳儒主席所講的在馬祖大橋可心研究通過了所有程序的晚輩但是沒有錢因為不願意編列也陳儒剛剛主席在詢答的時候有問到正天才委員也有詢答也有提到"},{"start":13540.598,"end":13567.428,"text":"二零零八年五月十號國民黨執政兩年八個月之後完成可行研究完成所有的程序在二零一一年一月二十九號動工兩年八個月樹花改動工從可行研究綜合規劃環境想評估預算編列全部完成我們再轉頭回來看一下國道六號在二零二零年三月四號"},{"start":13568.973,"end":13584.981,"text":"在本委員會就已經通過要進行地質調查探勘到現在今天部長表示2026年年底地質調查才可以完成總共一個地質調查609個月"},{"start":13587.581,"end":13612.739,"text":"還不要想啊我沒可行研究其實我想提這個案子我想大家都很清楚提這個案子啊這裡面都是交通部知道他該怎麼做的光提這個案子本席現在覺得都尊重啦但是對這個整個開發有什麼實質的意義只有看到民進黨的政府的行政效率6年9個月"},{"start":13614.767,"end":13630.061,"text":"才能夠把地址探勘才完成侯北可欣研究可能再搞10年所以用政府如果今天這個決議通過的話以後他照這個決議立法院決議的我照這個決議我再搞個15年"},{"start":13632.402,"end":13658.577,"text":"15年之後可行研究才通過其實我們這個案子裡面已經沒有提到預算了如果政府要編列編列沒有編列的話發國內或國際的BOTBOT國際的企業集團日本到東南亞做了這麼多的ODA做了這麼多的PPP都可以來做美國、歐洲都可以來做都很快我們一個地址大概要6年9個月"},{"start":13660.526,"end":13660.746,"text":"三黨的意見都不一樣齁"},{"start":13689.823,"end":13712.16,"text":"來請江林部回答一下主席剛剛那個胡孟俊委員提的有一點落差啦江林部資料是112年12月14號才開始地質調查地質調查不是6年9個月啦如果你以預計112年完成應該是3年啦江林部你回答一下啦就是我們是去年12月委託出去202312月到202612月是3年啦"},{"start":13716.323,"end":13716.843,"text":"好,順便再委員發言"},{"start":13745.489,"end":13772.844,"text":"台灣這個重大的交通建設不是第一次我一再的跟交通部提到北回鐵路北回鐵路民國六十幾年開始做它的難度絕對不會比這個國道六號的延伸到花蓮來的難"},{"start":13775.174,"end":13796.966,"text":"那個更難啊,鐵路北回鐵路啊,不是公路,不是高速公路啊鐵路啊所以要不要做而已所以這個地質調查探勘本來就會做啦為什麼這個時候會要提這樣的案這才是一個我們要去思考的本來就要做"},{"start":13801.913,"end":13820.949,"text":"他不做嗎?不做地質調查探勘研究嗎?樹花改要做新建的時候他不做地質調查探勘研究嗎?都有做本來就要做這個時候為什麼要提?這個時候為什麼要提?重點在這裡啊重點在這裡"},{"start":13828.717,"end":13857.539,"text":"本來就要做重點是為什麼這個時候要提對不對本來就要做啊好,鄭委員鄭委員對不對這個時候提這個才是政治扯這個扯不完啦因為國民黨還有國民黨的意見民進黨的委員他同意林國成委員修正的意見那國民黨不同意我看就表決吧是不是這樣同意不同意表決"},{"start":13859.158,"end":13879.966,"text":"同意不同意表決?要不要表決?要嗎?好那不然怎麼辦?那不然就一直扯就不要提,我的意思是說就不要提,提而反而是有政治的考量"},{"start":13892.402,"end":13907.486,"text":"那個工作人員發點涼茶給他們喝情緒不要激動不是啦就這麼一個案子因為我們下面大家緩和一點都立法院好同事嘛對不對"},{"start":13911.625,"end":13938.809,"text":"國民黨委員是不是同意民進黨委員這個提案?同意不同意?那不然這就表決了,我們民主的方式...好啦,因為我們後面還有案子要處理,我先清點人數好了"},{"start":13940.185,"end":13965.425,"text":"表決前幾點人數?在場主席委員13個人不含主席,已經足法定人數。我們現在進行表決。贊成這一個提案的請舉手。幾位?我不知道。手掌在他那裡我怎麼知道?你講的話我收回去。"},{"start":13967.247,"end":13995.029,"text":"好六位齁戰爭者六位反對者請舉手一、二、三、四、五七個七個好七位齁反對者七位反對者多數本案不通過好手放下來了好本案不通過"},{"start":13999.039,"end":14026.137,"text":"好,登記質詢委員就已經發言完畢做以下的決定報告及詢答完畢二、委員林益君、黃仁、許智傑、陳本瑜、陳柏楊所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報三、委員與質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分請交通部盡速以書面答覆現在開始國道六號東"},{"start":14029.176,"end":14041.507,"text":"東延花蓮建設特別條例草案的竹條審查並進行協商。為了不浪費大家時間,我們就在原位進行。在進入竹條討論前,先請議事人員宣讀條文。請宣讀。"},{"start":14045.618,"end":14072.641,"text":"副分析委員等53人擬具:「國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例草案。」案。第一條為推動東西地區交通建設平衡區域發展,促進觀光產業,改善交通用品質,增進居民福祉特殊利益本條例本條例,為規定者適用其他法律規定。第二條本條例主管計畫為交通目的。第三條為順利推動國道六號東延花蓮計畫之整體交通建設與發展。中央主管計畫應用本條例通過後立即啟動可行性評估每半年檢討一次並設置中部橫貫公路高"},{"start":14073.381,"end":14088.19,"text":"橫貫高速公路建設推動委員會並邀請交通部國家發展委員會、地方政務協的專家等人共同組成由交通部部長擔任召集人及設置要點由行政院定制中部橫貫高速公路建設推動委員會應於一年內擬定國道六號東延花蓮建設推動發展計畫綱項"},{"start":14089.531,"end":14108.837,"text":"每半年檢討一次全部計劃之建設完成以不逾10年為限第4條主管計劃因依據國道六號東延花蓮建設推動發展計劃更要配合施工工程進展需要擬定之綜合建設方案其內容如下一方案目標及實施方案二公路沿線建設規劃三土地徵收取得市環境六號保護"},{"start":14109.477,"end":14139.077,"text":"五、配合天然公共資源開發六、天然災害防治七、分期實施計劃及執行分工八、分期財務需求及經費來源九、其他第五條為加速推動國道六號東延花蓮之建設與發展本田所需建設經費來源等一下列方式一、促進民間參與與公共建設法辦理採用民間興建營運後轉移模式二、採用國際照搬方式以興建營運後轉移模式三、引進國際主權財富基金採用興建後轉移模式"},{"start":14140.038,"end":14143.941,"text":"是由中央執行機關便利預算辦理執前身"},{"start":14145.151,"end":14172.943,"text":"由中央機關編列預算辦理所需經費來源得以舉借債務或出售政府所需的事業股份方式辦理不受公共債務法第5條有關每年度舉債額度之限制中央主管機關會配合前項之建設工程計劃進展因涉之國道六號東延花蓮發展建設基金作為本推動條例之各項永續發展文化保障之資金規劃與需求該基金之收入之"},{"start":14173.743,"end":14186.421,"text":"保管及運用方式由新聞電視第6條中主管機關意義永續發展為目標結合在地文化與公共環境保護人工景觀自然生態等特色作為推動本計劃沿線整體交通建設與發展技藝化自然圖並推動發展相關優質產業第7條"},{"start":14189.065,"end":14216.93,"text":"中央主管機關因擬立相關計畫對本條例新建後沿線土地開發取得而受影響,致援助民有關生活、文化保存、育醫保障並輔導援助民參與自然資源維護與經營管理及提供相關就業機會。第8條本條例自公布實施本條例實施日程由主管機關定之。宣傳完畢。那個跟本案沒有關係的海運、空運、觀光"},{"start":14218.137,"end":14244.11,"text":"官員請回。請回。謝謝你們,早上辛苦了。跟本案沒有關係,可以先回去了。沒關係。好,我們現在開始協商。法案的名稱。國道六號東延花蓮建設特別條例"},{"start":14245.567,"end":14269.253,"text":"條文的第一條沒有沒有,要先名稱,先問我有沒有意見名稱有沒有意見?名稱沒有意見齁?好,名稱沒有意見,通過條文裡面第一條,各位有沒有意見?民產有沒有意見?有齁?有的話表決這不是表決齁?"},{"start":14277.401,"end":14283.183,"text":"好了,把這個結算。不用表決?表決比較快啊。"},{"start":14309.198,"end":14336.524,"text":"一條一條來第二條有沒有意見草保留第三條第四條第五條第六條第七條大聲一點嘛我聽不到"},{"start":14337.881,"end":14366.937,"text":"第七條?第八條?法案名稱是照案通過好,法案名稱我們就照案通過,大家沒意見了齁?協商完成,宣告協商結論如下法案名稱照案通過第一條至第八條均保留,送院會處理請問各位委員照剛才宣告的協商結論通過,有沒有異議?"},{"start":14368.697,"end":14388.188,"text":"沒有異議嗎?沒有異議就通過了。好,針對本日會議做以下的決議。一、討論事項所列國道六號東延花蓮建設條例特別條例草案。案、審查完異具審查報告提報院會討論。二、院會討論前請問各位委員是否須交黨團協商?要嗎?"},{"start":14399.818,"end":14425.565,"text":"好,需交黨上協商因為討論的時候由陳召集委員陳雪生補充說明本日議程處理完畢,現在休息明天上午九點鐘繼續開會接下來協商協商?還有啊?不是,沒有協商跟委員會好,休息現在不是休息什麼?"},{"start":14428.616,"end":14430.598,"text":"告知委員長王國材指揮長王國材指揮長"}]}},{"id":"151335","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151335","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016279aa5ec2c680da7e38f48eb7d2985ecdbc5dab72e655c1c94ccb487e2fda4bc7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"11:51:23 - 11:55:22","影片長度":"00:03:59","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。【第四案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[15,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":239,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:55:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:51:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":790,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（11時51分）謝謝，有請我們鍾副主委。"],["主席：有請鍾副主委，謝謝。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：盧委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：副主委好。我想問副主委一個問題，你本身有沒有領禁伐補償？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我媽媽有。"],["盧委員縣一：誰幫她申請的？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我妹妹他們在協助。"],["盧委員縣一：好，那你有沒有看過那個表格，你知道這個表格是多久要簽一次嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：每一年都要。"],["盧委員縣一：你覺得有需要嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是比較繁瑣。"],["盧委員縣一：是，我們常常要去的時候，我們的承辦人……現在的公務員很多都是女性，然後要騎打檔的車上去，有時候路也不是那麼好，甚至也會發生危險，有沒有一個方法可以讓這個每年的慣例，讓它能夠更省時或科學化？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，跟委員報告，以前都是人工沒有錯，不過現在都用衛星拍照，然後再做確認。"],["盧委員縣一：普及率很高嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：全國。"],["盧委員縣一：OK，我想知道目前圖臺系統的執行成效，知道嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：去年才剛剛完成整個建置，所以今年是第一年實施，我們希望用這個設備，然後再加上人工來協助。"],["盧委員縣一：希望能夠確實便民，因為每次我內人都會說，她要去獅子鄉一趟，其實都要花一整天的時間，有的時候承辦人可能有事，又要再約下一次。所以每年要做的事情，如果每次都要舟車勞頓，你看全國的人，很多人幾乎都住在都會區上班，可是他確實有這些禁伐補償地的時候，他還要花時間請假回去做這些每次都在重複的事情。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，我們希望能夠改善，我們今年開始逐步在做處理。"],["盧委員縣一：OK，那我現在問一個問題，目前我們受益的人數大概是多少？禁伐補償。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：5萬1,000多，到去年的人口數來……"],["盧委員縣一：如果按照一般的家庭，6位的話大概就是有30萬的族人受益是嗎？大部分就是，我知道現在原住民大概用禁伐補償過生活的人是非常多，我們確實需要把它調高的原因是，我們不是住在醫院旁邊，我們生活的環境裡面沒有捷運，也沒有高速公路，很多時候我們都需要付非常大的成本來過生活，所以我們這個提高到6萬，提高到5萬，這樣的需求是非常基本的一個要求，是不是？可以理解嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：理解。"],["盧委員縣一：好，本席這次是針對我們一些地區可能還沒有劃為禁伐補償的部分做一些修正，大概看一下在都市計畫區裡面，自然林木或者是植生覆蓋不宜耕種的地區能夠劃入，大概有看過嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有看過。"],["盧委員縣一：最後一項就是我們希望能夠提高到6萬元，我剛才已經說過了，我們地處生活非常不便利的地方，這個是最基本的需求。其實應該是更高的，如果做碳匯的計算或者是一些基本生活的核算，我想應該是超過8萬，甚至到12萬，這樣所謂的一個基點，如果說6萬這樣的一個訴求，我希望是大家都可以接受的，請副主委這邊多多支持，謝謝。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝盧縣一委員的質詢，謝謝盧縣一，謝謝。","繼續請游顥、游顥、游顥委員不在。","何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","陳瑩、陳瑩、陳瑩委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","丁學忠委員要質詢嗎？好，謝謝。","現在登記發言的委員，除了不在場的之外，都發言完畢，結束了。委員楊瓊瓔、林岱樺、張智倫、張嘉郡、黃仁、謝衣鳯委員，還有丁學忠委員所提的書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復的部分，請相關單位在一週內以書面答復並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃捷","麥玉珍","張宏陸","許宇甄","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","王美惠","賴瑞隆","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","張智倫","張嘉郡","黃仁","謝衣鳯","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二、\n審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正\n草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例\n第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.2790937499999995,"end":7.000343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.40096875,"end":10.071593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.67034375,"end":14.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.42534375,"end":17.766593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.340343750000002,"end":19.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.58909375,"end":20.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.75784375,"end":19.926593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.19659375,"end":21.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.01909375,"end":22.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.84596875,"end":24.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.58409375,"end":26.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.47784375,"end":30.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.945968750000002,"end":32.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.38034375,"end":33.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.30846875,"end":35.080343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.21534375,"end":36.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.70034375,"end":36.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.83534375,"end":37.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.290968750000005,"end":38.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.400343750000005,"end":41.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.88096875,"end":44.243468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.564093750000005,"end":46.251593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.85909375,"end":49.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.322843750000004,"end":50.892218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.44909375,"end":53.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.01409375,"end":56.072843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.22471875,"end":58.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.38034375,"end":64.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.227843750000005,"end":63.548468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.80159375,"end":65.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.44659375,"end":74.73659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.59846875000001,"end":68.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.96534375,"end":69.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.21721875,"end":86.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.57971875,"end":79.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.86221875000001,"end":81.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.10659375,"end":84.45659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.87409375,"end":116.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.57409375,"end":89.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.91909375,"end":95.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.43096875,"end":113.78534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.20284375000001,"end":119.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.12659375000001,"end":117.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.33721875,"end":124.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.42909375,"end":126.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.93534375,"end":129.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.78284375,"end":136.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.75221875,"end":151.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.29846875,"end":157.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.12471875,"end":156.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.31034375000002,"end":156.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.35221875000002,"end":164.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.81534375,"end":165.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.13159375,"end":166.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.85721875000002,"end":167.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.30846875,"end":168.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.67909375000002,"end":182.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.02346875,"end":183.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.05721875,"end":183.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.00221875000003,"end":184.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.09909375,"end":189.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.41471875000002,"end":191.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.16534375,"end":193.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.19909375,"end":194.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.89096875,"end":194.26221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.34659375,"end":194.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.58284375000002,"end":213.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.31409375,"end":214.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.37721875000003,"end":221.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.30846875,"end":232.95659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.95659375000002,"end":234.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.43721875000003,"end":239.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.43659375000001,"end":240.26346875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.31,"end":25.942,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。"},{"start":29.52,"end":51.704,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員"},{"start":59.878,"end":60.619,"text":"三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具"},{"start":77.984,"end":95.729,"text":"立法院第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第12條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第12會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第12會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第12會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第12會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第12會期內"},{"start":105.331,"end":128.644,"text":"很多人幾乎都住在都會來上班可是他確實有這些禁房補償的地的時候他還要花時間請假回去做這些每次都在重複的事情跟委員報告我們希望能夠改善我們今年開始逐步再做處理那我想問一個問題就是目前我們受益的人數是多少?大概?五萬一千多到去年的人口數"},{"start":129.83,"end":142.961,"text":"及第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":158.493,"end":168.603,"text":"六萬提高到五萬這樣的一個需求是非常基本的一個要求,是不是?可以理解嗎?理解。好,那我們再看下一頁。"},{"start":173.332,"end":190.813,"text":"本席這次是針對我們一些地區可能還沒有化為我們禁伐補償的做一些修正大概看一下在都市計畫區裡面自然林木或者是只剩覆蓋不宜耕種的地區能夠化入大概有看過嗎"},{"start":193.131,"end":210.965,"text":"及第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修"},{"start":223.736,"end":233.834,"text":"所謂的一個基點,如果是6萬這樣的一個訴求,希望是大家都可以接受的,那請副主委這邊多多支持,謝謝。是,是,謝謝委員。好,謝謝盧縣英委員的質詢,謝謝盧縣英,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151334","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151334","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627643519c25cbe3c738f48eb7d2985ecdbc5dab72e655c1c94c6a74b42f456a0955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:43:25 - 11:51:12","影片長度":"00:07:47","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。【第四案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[15,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":467,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:51:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:43:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時43分）謝謝主席，我們是不是有請內政部國土計畫組？"],["主席：好，我們請國土計畫組，是要組長嗎？是都市計畫還是綜合計劃？"],["蔡委員易餘：綜合計劃。"],["主席：好，國家公園署綜合計劃組，還有國土管理署都市計畫組，還有國土計畫組組長，營建管理組的科長，你們可能與蔡易餘委員想要回答的問題有關，謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：組長，今天討論原住民保留地禁伐補償，我想請教一下，因為這個大概是對於原住民的土地，他們的土地受到相關土地利用的限制，所以要給予補償，但我想聽一下你們的看法是怎樣。"],["廖組長耀東：跟委員報告……"],["蔡委員易餘：土地一旦受到限制的時候應該要給予合理的補償。"],["廖組長耀東：這個條例的主管機關主要是原民會。"],["蔡委員易餘：我知道，但我不知道內政部……"],["廖組長耀東：內政部今天的書面報告是對於擴大適用範圍，我們表達尊重大會委員的意見……"],["蔡委員易餘：表達尊重啦！"],["廖組長耀東：是，主要是補償的政策跟立法精神。"],["蔡委員易餘：OK，那我要講第二頁了，接下來就是你們的事。國土計畫法預計在明年的四月上路，這個計畫法事實上就是把土地分作四大類，包括有所謂的農業發展地區、國土保育地區以及海洋資源。針對農業發展地區所謂農一跟農二，優良農地跟良好農地、國土保育區，這樣算不算是對於土地利用的一個限制？"],["蘇組長崇哲：跟委員報告，因為農業發展地區還是可以做，有一些做原來既有合法的使用，但……"],["蔡委員易餘：原來既有的合法使用……"],["蘇組長崇哲：還有一些容許的使用項目。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，但是它的土地相對於其他城鄉發展區，就是有他的限制。"],["蘇組長崇哲：就是它……"],["蔡委員易餘：你不能說它沒有……"],["蘇組長崇哲：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，你說它原來既有這樣的限制，限制就是存在，只是說土地有被分門別類，所以有被分類，是不是這樣？"],["蘇組長崇哲：對，它劃設為農業發展地區，就是要比較從事農業發展的部分。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，我進一步再問，如果像臺北市這樣的首都都會，臺北市的土地有農業發展區的農1跟農2嗎？"],["蘇組長崇哲：因為現在的功能分區圖草案還沒有送到內政部來，據我們的瞭解，目前的草案大概是不會劃農業發展地區。"],["蔡委員易餘：沒有嘛！對不對？臺北市就沒有嘛！所以這是一個很極端的，臺北市享受的統籌分配款，國家給資源的挹注，應該是全國所有都市最多的吧，是吧？這個都是公開數據，大家都知道。你所有地方的土地，又沒有任何土地利用的限制，相對於其他地方，你又得到最多的統籌分配款。我們回到今天這個條例的土地如果被限制的話，要有一個補償精神的話，同樣的道理，是不是對於所謂農業縣是很不公平的，有沒有這樣的狀況？"],["蘇組長崇哲：跟委員報告，因為這個農地發展的部分，主管機關應該是農業部，這個部分內政部也在跟……"],["蔡委員易餘：我知道，但是內政部在規劃國土計畫法嘛！對不對？"],["蘇組長崇哲：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，你繼續把它講完。"],["蘇組長崇哲：我們內政部其實針對這個部分，一直在跟農業部協調，看看這個部分是不是對農業發展區的一些使用，讓這些使用能再做一些放寬。"],["蔡委員易餘：那不可能啦！你這樣講太理想化了啦！農地就是農地，農地也是農用啦！所以這個國土計畫法，現在問題就是你們過去叫各地方整理起來，到底他要怎麼劃設，這個劃設上就有一個很大的困難，他到底符合現狀嗎？既然劃設了這樣一個農地，然後限制了地方的發展，拿不到補償啊！"],["蘇組長崇哲：對，因為現在最主要我們目前國土計畫法的補償，就是直接限制他做任何的使用，我們才會去補償。剛才也跟委員報告……"],["蔡委員易餘：直接限制是指哪些？國土保育地就是……"],["蘇組長崇哲：對，就是如果被我們直接限制不能建築，我們會把它編為國土保育用地，這個用地，我們就會做一些補償。"],["蔡委員易餘：怎麼補償法？"],["蘇組長崇哲：我們就依照他的損失，比如說土地，我們就補償土地，上面有建築物，我們就補償建築物。"],["蔡委員易餘：損失是怎樣，等價補償？"],["蘇組長崇哲：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：等價補償，它一旦被編為國土保育地，你們就等價補償？"],["蘇組長崇哲：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，那如果就站在城鄉差距的話，這一點你們要怎麼去做？"],["蘇組長崇哲：委員是指被劃為城鄉不同……"],["蔡委員易餘：不不不，我現在指的就是說，像我們嘉義縣，我們這裡不是農1就是農2，我們的山坡地就是國土保育地，我們又有曾文水庫，而且像湖山水庫的水源地，也都是在我們的山區這裡。我們沿海被劃作國家重點濕地，這些全部都是限制啊！這樣一個限制，我要具體的講，國土計劃法要上路就是要搭配財政收支劃分法，財政收支劃分從來沒有把所謂的統籌分配，針對我這個縣市既然負擔了多少的農1、農2，我負擔了多少保育地，我為了讓臺灣的水源是可以保護的，可是我沒有拿到統籌分配啊！這樣對縣市怎麼會公平呢？"],["蘇組長崇哲：因為那個……"],["蔡委員易餘：組長，你只要說一句你贊成這個想法就好。"],["蘇組長崇哲：因為那個……"],["蔡委員易餘：這樣就變財政部了，這都是跨部會，我沒有一次說得完的，我跟你們說，你就說這是屬於哪裡哪裡，每次都這樣，你剛才也說那個是農業部，對不對？所以這如果是在你那邊，你就知道臺北市沒有劃任何一片土地叫做農1、農2。但是我們嘉義縣，我們城鄉的土地，大概10幾%，可能差不多10%多一點，其餘不是保育地，就是叫做農1、農2。如果這樣的話，那沒關係啊！總是要面對這個關卡嘛！那統籌分配大家好好算一算，你只要說一句贊成這個想法就好。"],["蘇組長崇哲：這個很抱歉，委員，因為這不是我們部裡面的權責。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，沒關係啦！我不要為難你。"],["蘇組長崇哲：謝謝。"],["蔡委員易餘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，非常謝謝蔡易餘委員的質詢，謝謝。謝謝官員的回應，謝謝。","繼續我們請洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","請盧縣一委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃捷","麥玉珍","張宏陸","許宇甄","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","王美惠","賴瑞隆","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","張智倫","張嘉郡","黃仁","謝衣鳯","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二、\n審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正\n草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例\n第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.83971875,"end":11.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.657843750000001,"end":12.214718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.497218750000002,"end":16.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.38284375,"end":16.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.41659375,"end":21.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.46721875,"end":17.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.72784375,"end":23.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.89221875,"end":24.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.60096875,"end":24.617843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.63471875,"end":29.359718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.23721875,"end":32.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.98784375,"end":39.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.71721875,"end":36.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.471593750000004,"end":43.197218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.720343750000005,"end":55.971593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.30909375,"end":58.485968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.890968750000006,"end":61.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.40534375,"end":61.979093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.04659375000001,"end":63.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.44221875000001,"end":68.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.09596875,"end":70.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.12971875000001,"end":70.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.09159375,"end":84.28784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.03659375000001,"end":73.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.65596875,"end":80.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.84471875,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.10159375,"end":88.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.13534375,"end":90.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.86909375,"end":91.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.97409375000001,"end":97.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.44596875,"end":99.39096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.06159375,"end":103.05284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.64346875000001,"end":108.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.75659375000001,"end":110.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.78159375000001,"end":128.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.24284375000002,"end":143.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.12721875,"end":142.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.26596875,"end":148.59846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.58159375,"end":150.72471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.61534375000002,"end":148.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.98659375,"end":155.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.27659375000002,"end":161.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.62596875,"end":162.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.84096875,"end":169.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.97909375,"end":176.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.02971875,"end":170.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.25659375,"end":180.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.11659375000002,"end":182.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.70284375,"end":193.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.62096875,"end":201.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.75034375,"end":204.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.19721875000002,"end":207.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.11659375000002,"end":211.84596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.93034375000002,"end":232.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.42909375000002,"end":234.59346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.48784375000002,"end":246.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.72409375,"end":236.70284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.24596875,"end":251.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.02596875,"end":248.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.53221875000003,"end":248.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.82284375,"end":266.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.57159375000003,"end":266.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.97659375,"end":267.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.88346875,"end":272.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.96721875000003,"end":289.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.50471875,"end":291.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.42846875000004,"end":296.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.36846875000003,"end":298.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.01784375,"end":300.25409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.43971875,"end":312.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.31971875,"end":315.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":314.83409375,"end":330.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.52346875,"end":339.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.72471875,"end":341.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.10409375,"end":342.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.84659375,"end":347.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.58846875,"end":351.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.00971875000005,"end":353.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":354.11909375000005,"end":358.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.32534375,"end":359.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.24471875,"end":381.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":361.59471875,"end":361.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":361.83096875,"end":362.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.24971875,"end":387.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.93659375000004,"end":388.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.54409375,"end":391.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.32409375000003,"end":408.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.31721875000005,"end":410.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":413.92409375000005,"end":413.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.97471875,"end":414.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":414.16034375000004,"end":414.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.51471875000004,"end":414.80159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":414.80159375000005,"end":415.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.44284375,"end":438.84846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":417.63659375000003,"end":418.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":419.40846875000005,"end":421.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.02846875,"end":422.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.46284375000005,"end":422.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.51346875,"end":422.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.75971875000005,"end":443.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.87721875000005,"end":445.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.62784375,"end":446.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.35346875000005,"end":449.42909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.23909375000005,"end":454.42409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.45346875,"end":457.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":457.90034375000005,"end":457.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":457.96784375000004,"end":463.24971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.12346875000003,"end":463.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":464.38034375,"end":464.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.97096875000005,"end":466.96221875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.157,"end":28.765,"text":"謝謝主席,我們是不是有請我們內政部國土計劃署我們請國土計劃署你是要組長嗎?都市計劃還是綜合計劃?綜合計劃國家公園署綜合計劃還有國土管理署的都市計劃署"},{"start":30.405,"end":31.527,"text":"還有國土計劃組組長、營建管理組科長"},{"start":42.503,"end":63.875,"text":"好,組長今天在討論這個原住民保留地禁伐的一個補償那我想請教一下因為這個當然是對於說原住民的土地嘛他的土地受到相關的土地利用的限制那所以要給他一個補償那我想聽一下你們的看法是怎樣現在看好了"},{"start":72.042,"end":98.684,"text":"土地但受到限制的時候應該要給一個合理的補償條例的主管機關主要是原住民委員會。內政部今天的書面報告我們是對於不管是擴大適用範圍我們也表達尊重大會委員的意見。主要是補償的政策跟立法精神。那我要講第二頁了。那接下來就是你們的事。國土計畫法"},{"start":101.504,"end":127.831,"text":"預計在明年的4月要上路。」那這個計劃法事實上就把土地就把它分做了四大類那這中間包括有所謂的農業發展地區那有所謂的國土保育地區以及海洋資源那針對農業發展地區所謂農一跟農二優良農地跟良好農地國土保育區那這樣算不算是對於土地利用的一個限制"},{"start":129.681,"end":149.795,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第1條條文修正草案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第1條條文修正草案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第1條條文修正草案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第1條條文修正草案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第1條條文修正草案。"},{"start":156.32,"end":173.867,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第12條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第12條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第12條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第12條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第12條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":183.002,"end":201.312,"text":"因為他現在的功能分區草案還沒有送到內政部來那據我們了解目前他目前的草案大概是不會劃農業發展地區沒有嘛對不對臺北市就沒有嘛所以這是一個很極端的臺北市享受的統籌分配款國家給資源的挹注應該是全國所有的都市最多吧"},{"start":208.194,"end":225.107,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第12條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第12條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第12條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第12條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第12條條文修正草案案。七、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第12條條文修正草案案。八"},{"start":235.752,"end":237.315,"text":"公務員報告,因為這個農地發展的部分,那應該主管機關應該是農業部,那這個部分內政部也在規劃。"},{"start":251.974,"end":253.695,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留"},{"start":269.056,"end":286.52,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員"},{"start":300.031,"end":304.554,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第6條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具"},{"start":319.705,"end":338.385,"text":"直接限制不能建築,那我們會把它編為國土保育用地,那這個用地我們就會來做一些補償。我們就依照它的損失,比如說土地我們就補償土地,上面有建築物我們就補償建築物。"},{"start":339.907,"end":343.331,"text":"等19人擬具等價補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":352.162,"end":363.229,"text":"立法院第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第16條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第16條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第16條條文修正草案。"},{"start":384.183,"end":410.678,"text":"國土計劃法要上路就是要搭配財政收支劃分法。」你財政收支劃分你一旦你從來沒有把所謂的一個統籌分配把它針對我這個縣市我既然負擔了多少的一個農一農二的一個負擔我負擔了多少保育地我為了保讓台灣的水源是可以保護的可是我沒有拿到統籌分配啊這樣對縣市怎麼會公平呢"},{"start":414.111,"end":415.893,"text":"三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":440.491,"end":445.435,"text":"審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"}]}},{"id":"151333","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151333","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627d5cf8d720efdbba98f48eb7d2985ecdbc5dab72e655c1c94a5ed6df0179e1a205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:34:47 - 11:43:19","影片長度":"00:08:32","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。【第四案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[15,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":512,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:43:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:34:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":708,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時34分）謝謝。主席有請今天參與的各部會，可以嗎？"],["主席：你要全部請，是不是？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對。"],["主席：好，請原民會的鍾副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員好。"],["主席：國家公園署綜合計劃組組長、國土管理署都市計畫組組長、農業部的林業及自然保育署，好不好？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["主席：法務部的法務司。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["主席：經濟部水利署的保育事業組、環境部氣候變遷署的組長、主計總處的專門委員，以上各部會被宣讀到的名字請上台，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝主席，各部會官員大家好。其實每一次談到原住民族的土地，我們都覺得心情非常地沈重，我們看到以原住民保留地來講，長期以來我們看到的就是它限制處處，動輒超限利用開罰。我們的土地變得沒有價值，人家常常笑我們，原住民窮得只剩下土地，原住民只能在自己的土地當別人的雇工，但是我們很瞭解，政府對我們的期待就是，原住民要守護山林，為了國土保育、為了水源的涵養，但是有限制就應該要有補償，所以過去的立委長期一直在訴求，能不能夠針對我們這些被限制利用的土地，你禁止我砍伐、禁止我利用，可不可以給我們補償金？","很高興，終於在2016年原住民開始有了禁伐補償金，我在這邊也看到我們為了很多理由，必須提高……我等一下會說明，至少今天我看到各部會，有農業部、有環境部、法務部、內政部、原民會，你們的報告都寫「敬表支持」，我很高興。所以在這邊要特別跟大家談一下，其實我們爬梳過去的立法理由，我們有看到，那個時候大家對於每一年3萬的禁伐補償金是不滿意的。其實最早的版本91年是1公頃10萬喔！可是當年為什麼會有1年3萬的規定？","我們來看一下，當初有提，立法理由就是說，如果需要提高禁伐補償金，可以等碳稅。既然講到碳稅，我們以目前國際碳權的交易市場來看，我們大概有去算，我也在農業部那邊質詢過，1公頃大概是8萬塊。當年也有提到為什麼1年會3萬塊？是因為最後大家用林務局的獎輔造林20年60萬這樣的基準去做的，所以大家就說，好吧！那就1公頃1年3萬塊。","可是我們來看一下，現在、今年、即將要公布施行的新的獎輔造林是來到6年最高60萬，為什麼？就是配合新植林啊！我們的氣遷法通過之後，因為新植林才會有價值啊！所以換算起來是1年10萬塊喔！","再看一下水利署，其實水利署也有針對水質水量保護區，也有做禁止砍伐的獎勵，我們看到的是1年1公頃6萬元。種種我們看到的這些都告訴我們，是時候該調整禁伐補償金了，所以我也在去年特別在院會質詢陳建仁行政院長，他很明快地講，請原民會研議提高草擬辦法過來。我今年再度在院會質詢行政院長跟主計長，主計長的裁示也很明快，他說只要大家都認同，他願意編列預算支持、支應，所以今天我們來這個地方，大家朝野都有提案版本出來，我們的訴求其實就非常地明確，我們都有提版本。","以我的版本來看，我就是覺得碳費、碳權的交易已經啟動了，獎輔造林的金額提高了，水質水量保護區的獎勵標準也都跟我們相差一半，所以我在這個地方特別提禁伐補償條例修法的第六條，就是增加了第三款「中華民國一百十四年起，每年每公頃新臺幣六萬元」。當然，這個可以交給大家一起來討論。","另外也為了不要經常地去修法，所以我們也希望就把它寫在法條裡面，能夠定時地配合我們的消費物價指數做調整。我在這個地方其實就是要表達為什麼我們大家要一同地支持禁伐補償金應該要提高，希望我們各部會，等一下有時間我再來聽聽看，至少你們的書面報告都說「敬表支持」，所以這個部分就交給原民會去努力。","另外，就是我想要提到一個小問題，就是問原民會，落實禁伐精神我也講了好幾年，謝謝，今年我也看到已經修正公告上路了，就是你們第六條用負面表列，只要不要有定著的這些建築，只要不要有舖設水泥的這些道路，你們是用負面表列，只要不是，你們就不會再東扣西扣，因為這個民怨很深啦！你們也常常知道，天災一來，崩塌地一堆，那個要算誰的？所以我在這邊只是要確認一下，因為很多人關心。我們這種崩塌地是不是確定不會扣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，這個就是剛剛委員提到的，那個既有的建物、道路、農路都扣除……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我是問崩塌地。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：崩塌地的部分，還是要符合檢測，就是覆蓋率七成就可以。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那重點來了，我要確認，因為我一直要求、訴求，我們這些崩塌地的面積不能扣在分子，要扣在分母。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這個有確認了，謝謝。","另外一個小提醒就是，因為我們的申請是到4月底，可是我們也知道獎輔造林要上路了，這個中間會有空窗期。因為以後滿6年，不用再返還之前的造林補償金，所以我要確認一下，因為它會轉禁伐補償，這個空窗期會讓它損失今年可以參與禁伐補償，所以我希望這個地方請農業部、環保署跟原民會一定要去注意這個問題，像是可以延長我們的申請期限，就是等待新的獎輔造林上路，這樣可以嗎，副主委？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我們跟農業部再研議一下這個部分。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，在這邊謝謝各部會官員，謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢，謝謝各回應的官員，謝謝。","繼續我們請蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃捷","麥玉珍","張宏陸","許宇甄","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","王美惠","賴瑞隆","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","張智倫","張嘉郡","黃仁","謝衣鳯","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二、\n審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正\n草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例\n第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.87346875,"end":13.868468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.160343750000003,"end":9.902843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.121593750000002,"end":17.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.640343750000003,"end":15.910343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.25596875,"end":19.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.06159375,"end":22.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.457843750000002,"end":22.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.11596875,"end":25.664093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.204093750000002,"end":38.033468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.26971875,"end":40.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.830343750000004,"end":47.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.43284375,"end":48.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.87971875,"end":51.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.516593750000006,"end":53.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.65971875,"end":57.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.642218750000005,"end":60.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.27034375,"end":62.181593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.485343750000006,"end":64.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.71284375,"end":68.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.57284375,"end":72.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.06596875000001,"end":73.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.82096875,"end":76.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.53784375000001,"end":78.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.44471875,"end":81.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.38534375,"end":82.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.49471875,"end":84.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.11471875000001,"end":86.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.98784375000001,"end":88.28721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.62034375,"end":90.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.51471875,"end":91.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.94909375,"end":94.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.68284375,"end":95.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.83034375000001,"end":96.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.53471875000001,"end":98.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.37409375,"end":100.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.56784375000001,"end":102.15846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.73221875,"end":103.82909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.13284375,"end":106.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.90034375,"end":108.92534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.61721875,"end":110.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.38909375,"end":115.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.21534375,"end":117.58221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.97034375000001,"end":118.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.38784375,"end":121.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.22284375000001,"end":122.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.57284375,"end":124.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.90596875000001,"end":126.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.16721875,"end":127.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.41596875000002,"end":130.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.75721875000002,"end":132.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.05659375000002,"end":133.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.77784375000002,"end":136.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.83659375000002,"end":138.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.50721875000002,"end":139.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.95846875,"end":142.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.06346875,"end":143.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.31221875,"end":147.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.97409375,"end":151.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.12534375,"end":153.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.81284375,"end":156.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.94721875000002,"end":160.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.13659375,"end":162.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.75659375,"end":167.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.83596875,"end":171.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.23596875,"end":175.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.90221875,"end":179.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.94784375,"end":185.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.55471875,"end":187.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.05221875,"end":188.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.43596875,"end":191.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.08534375000002,"end":195.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.38846875000002,"end":197.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.85221875000002,"end":200.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.53534375,"end":203.83034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.21409375000002,"end":207.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.54284375,"end":209.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.69846875000002,"end":213.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.20846875,"end":216.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.16159375,"end":224.48534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.16034375,"end":226.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.16846875000002,"end":228.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.63659375,"end":231.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.09596875000003,"end":233.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.61034375000003,"end":236.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.93909375,"end":238.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.81221875000003,"end":249.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.18596875000003,"end":251.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.82284375,"end":252.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.64971875,"end":254.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.75909375,"end":265.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.63909375000003,"end":269.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.26721875000004,"end":273.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.51971875000004,"end":279.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.30784375,"end":281.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.48471875,"end":283.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.08784375,"end":287.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.25596875,"end":299.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.91659375,"end":303.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.37159375000005,"end":310.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.69534375,"end":319.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.72784375000003,"end":329.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.51534375,"end":334.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.89846875,"end":334.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.94909375000003,"end":340.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.53471875,"end":346.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.99784375,"end":387.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.90284375000005,"end":393.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.77534375000005,"end":397.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.55534375,"end":401.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.11159375000005,"end":426.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.32284375,"end":428.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.65159375,"end":431.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.75221875000005,"end":445.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.64596875,"end":438.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.13534375,"end":439.62471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.51846875,"end":446.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.64471875000004,"end":453.12471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.19221875000005,"end":456.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.92159375000006,"end":457.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.41096875000005,"end":465.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.43909375000004,"end":469.29096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.47659375,"end":470.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.06284375,"end":472.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.95284375000006,"end":477.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.01534375000006,"end":501.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.33659375,"end":504.17159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.54721875,"end":503.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.56409375000004,"end":503.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.10409375000006,"end":507.96846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.96846875000006,"end":512.96346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.546,"end":13.615,"text":"謝謝主席有請今天參與的各部會可以嗎"},{"start":14.238,"end":28.068,"text":"條例第16條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第16條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第16條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第16條文修正草案案。七、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第16條文修正草案案。"},{"start":41.857,"end":60.11,"text":"以上請各部會宣讀的名字請上台,謝謝。好,謝謝主席。各位部會官員大家好。其實每一次談到原住民族的土地,我們都覺得心情非常的沉重。"},{"start":61.311,"end":87.821,"text":"我們看到以原住民保留地來講長期以來我們看到的就是它的限制處處動輒超限利用開發我們呢變得土地沒有價值人家常常笑我們原住民啊窮的只剩下土地原住民啊只能在自己的土地當別人的故宮"},{"start":89.67,"end":115.06,"text":"但是我們很了解政府對我們的期待就是原住民要守護山林為了國土保育為了水源的涵養但是有限制就應該要有補償所以長期在過去的立委一直在訴求能不能夠針對我們這些被限制利用的土地"},{"start":116.26,"end":129.676,"text":"你禁止我砍伐禁止我利用可不可以給我們補償金很高興終於在2016年原住民開始有了禁伐補償金"},{"start":131.803,"end":141.35,"text":"立法院第11屆第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第2次聯席會議第3次聯席會議第4次聯席會議第5次聯席會議第6次聯席會議第7次聯席會議第8次聯席會議第8次聯席會議第9次聯席會議第10次聯席會議第11次聯席會議第12次聯席會議第12次聯席會議第13次聯席會議第14次聯席會議第14次聯席會議第14次聯席會議第15次聯席會議第16次聯席會議第17次聯席會議第18次聯席會議第18次聯席會議第19次聯席會議第19次聯席會議第19次聯席會議第"},{"start":158.007,"end":171.254,"text":"其實我們去爬梳過去的立法理由我們有看到那個時候大家對於每一年3萬的禁伐補償金是不滿意的喔其實最早的版本91年是一公頃10萬喔可是當年為什麼會有這樣的一年3萬我們來看一下當初有提"},{"start":181.041,"end":202.435,"text":"禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11條條"},{"start":210.788,"end":237.311,"text":"是因為最後大家用林務局的蔣府造林20年60萬這樣的基準去所以大家就說好吧那就一公頃一年3萬塊可是我們來看一下現在今年即將要公佈施行的新的蔣府造林是來到6年最高60萬"},{"start":239.117,"end":264.794,"text":"為什麼就配合新殖林啊我們的7000法通過之後啊因為新殖林才會有價值啊好那所以換算起來是一年10萬塊喔所以再看一下水利署其實水利署他也有針對他的水質水量保護區也有去做這樣禁止砍伐的獎勵我們看到是一年一公頃6萬元"},{"start":267.302,"end":273.588,"text":"總總我們看到的這些都告訴我們是該調整禁伐補償金是時候了"},{"start":274.594,"end":302.655,"text":"所以我也在去年特別在院會質詢陳建仁行政院長他很明快的講請原民會嚴議提高的一個草擬辦法過來我今年呢我再度在院會質詢行政院長跟主計長主計長的才事也很明快他說只要大家都認同他願意編列預算會來支持、支應"},{"start":304.437,"end":328.782,"text":"所以今天我們來這個地方我們大家草野我們都有提案版本出來那我們的訴求其實就非常的明確我們都有提版本那以我版本來看我就是覺得碳費、碳權的交易已經啟動了蔣府造林的金額提高了水質水量保護區的獎勵標準也跟我們相差一半"},{"start":329.642,"end":345.561,"text":"所以我在這個地方特別提禁法補償條例修法的第六條就是增加了一個第三款中華民國114年起每年每公頃新台幣6萬元當然這個可以交給大家一起來討論"},{"start":347.043,"end":361.81,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第12條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第12條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第12條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第12條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第12條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員"},{"start":363.931,"end":375.376,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。七、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。九"},{"start":394.483,"end":421.2,"text":"落實禁伐精神我也講了好幾年謝謝今年我也看到已經修正公告上路了就是你們第六條用負面表列只要不要有定著的這一些建築那只要不要鋪設水泥的這些道路你們是用負面表列只要不是你們就不會再東扣西扣因為這個民怨很深啊你們也常常知道天災一來崩塌地一堆"},{"start":422,"end":431.166,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":446.707,"end":470.174,"text":"我要確認,因為我一直要求訴求,我們這些崩塌地的面積不能扣在分子,要扣在分母,這個確認了。好,那謝謝。那另外一個小提醒就是,因為我們的申請是到4月底,可是我們也知道蔣府照齡要上路了。"},{"start":471.104,"end":482.329,"text":"及第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留及第六條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留及第六條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留及第六條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留及第六條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留及第六條條文修正"},{"start":500.896,"end":504.641,"text":"地禁補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"}]}},{"id":"151332","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151332","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627e24049879b34c76b8f48eb7d2985ecdbc5dab72e655c1c9410497944ed0372c35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"11:26:55 - 11:34:40","影片長度":"00:07:45","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。【第四案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[15,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":465,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:34:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:26:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":665,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（11時26分）謝謝主席。我想請國土署。"],["主席：好，我們請國土署，是要組長，還是……"],["陳委員亭妃：國土計畫組長。"],["主席：請國土計畫組蘇組長。"],["陳委員亭妃：組長，因為今天剛好你有來，我想比較有關國土計畫的一些部分可能要跟你討論一下，到底現在人民的疑慮可不可以解掉？現在網路或是一些資訊都亂七八糟，其實說真的，連地方政府、各縣市政府，我相信你問了每一個縣市政府的承辦人員，可能講的都不一樣，現在面臨這個問題，這怎麼辦？明年你說要上路了，現在大家是嚇得要死，我們每一次出去接到民眾反映，就是到底未來我們會不會因為國土計畫，然後所有的土地都被禁建、都被限制了，動都動不得，這也很嚴重。今天所有的政策如果影響到人民的財產、生命安全，我告訴你，人民會跟你拼，所以現在說不清楚、講不明白。我們現在要求各縣市要趕快完成所有相關的資料函報給內政部，對不對？"],["蘇組長崇哲：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：全國有22個直轄縣市，請問現在總共有幾個縣市函報？"],["蘇組長崇哲：跟委員報告，目前22個縣市裡面，把國土功能分區圖草案送到內政部來審議的有3個縣市，包括金門、連江跟花蓮縣政府，其他的縣市據我們的瞭解，目前都在各個縣市的國審會在進行審議當中。"],["陳委員亭妃：目前都在審議當中？"],["蘇組長崇哲：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：請問，越審查，民眾越擔憂是為什麼？"],["蘇組長崇哲：跟委員報告，據我們的瞭解，第一個就是民眾對於未來國土功能分區的一些使用，目前大概不是那麼樣的瞭解，另外就是……"],["陳委員亭妃：連地方政府、縣市政府都不懂了、都不瞭解了，請問人民怎麼瞭解？光區域計畫怎麼跟國土規劃未來去做一個平臺的連結，問A，A講B；問C，C講D，完全不清楚、不瞭解，請問民眾怎麼辦？明年國土規劃上路之後，等於區域計畫就是告一個段落了，今天一塊土地，如果我在這個時間沒有提出來，我就要變成國土計畫的一個區塊，如果我在區域計畫這個時間點有送出，我還保留我的區域計畫原來的使用狀態，對不對？"],["蘇組長崇哲：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！所以你知道嗎？現在網路上好多訊息是說要趕快申辦、趕快送，告訴大家現在不送來不及了。我們每天被追著跑，他們說委員啊！快一點啦！我們的案件要快點送，不送會來不及啦！我說是什麼來不及啦？所以我覺得你們是不是應該做一個什麼樣的說明，把這些疑義講得更清楚，否則地方政府在審，反而民眾更擔憂、民眾更恐慌，所以才會說你要延啦，不要急促上路！急促上路之後，可能百姓沒有辦法接受，之後會反射在我們執政團隊的支持度上。"],["蘇組長崇哲：跟委員報告，我們大概有幾個方向在加強這樣的說明，第一個，各個縣市政府在辦理國審會的審議的時候，我們國土署都會派員到現場回應相關國審會委員的一些問題……"],["陳委員亭妃：組長，我跟你說一個最關鍵的，因為我時間有限，這是我們來自基層的反映，我直接跟你說問題在哪裡，當你們在第一次做說明會的時候，你們是誰去說明？市政府？"],["蘇組長崇哲：對，市政府。"],["陳委員亭妃：我告訴你，市政府得到你們的所有訊息都是這樣片段的，它都得到片段資訊，它怎麼去跟地方說明？地方得到訊息又是更片段的，所以你們要辦一次是由你們中央所有部會懂的人、瞭解的人去做一次徹底的說明，這有沒有辦法？"],["蘇組長崇哲：跟委員報告，其實我們是透過各種機制，不管是跟產官學界，我們都在加強說明……"],["陳委員亭妃：組長，不用產官學界，你跟百姓說明清楚就好了，土地是他們的啦！產官學界是你們在這個高位當中，你們在產官學界啦！百姓的權益在哪裡？他們怎麼保護自己最重要，做一次徹底的說明啦！"],["蘇組長崇哲：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：這個是我的要求。","然後拜託林業及自然保育署副署長，林班地的問題怎麼解決？現在國土計畫之後，林班地怎麼解決？"],["林副署長澔貞：是，目前林班地的部分是放在國1區。"],["陳委員亭妃：對，現在未解編的部分怎麼辦？你們有些因為有專案申請的部分，已經有重新簽訂合約，有簽訂合約的沒有問題，對不對？"],["林副署長澔貞：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：那麼沒有簽訂合約的呢？"],["林副署長澔貞：關於這個部分，我們應該就是依照現在的一些相關規定繼續走。"],["陳委員亭妃：有簽訂合約的就照我們原來舊有的合約走，是不是？"],["林副署長澔貞：是，照舊有的合約走。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有簽訂合約的呢？"],["林副署長澔貞：那就是看整體在縣市政府上面的規劃是怎麼樣。"],["陳委員亭妃：縣市政府的規劃？你們會尊重縣市政府的規劃，會嗎？要小心說喔！會嗎？你們會尊重縣市政府的規劃嗎？"],["林副署長澔貞：我們再來做……"],["陳委員亭妃：這個部分麻煩一下，林班地這個部分也造成地方很大的問題跟困擾，請做一個說明給我們，謝謝。"],["林副署長澔貞：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳亭妃委員的質詢，也謝謝林副署長，謝謝。","繼續我們請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃捷","麥玉珍","張宏陸","許宇甄","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","王美惠","賴瑞隆","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","張智倫","張嘉郡","黃仁","謝衣鳯","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二、\n審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正\n草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例\n第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.57909375,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.03471875,"end":7.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.46846875,"end":11.539718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.19784375,"end":15.015968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.480343750000003,"end":14.864093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.454718750000001,"end":17.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.12534375,"end":17.395343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.75346875,"end":22.778468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.78721875,"end":20.820968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.11596875,"end":26.575343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.047843750000002,"end":30.794093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.06409375,"end":33.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.46034375,"end":36.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.20659375,"end":38.438468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.69159375,"end":40.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.665968750000005,"end":44.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.32784375,"end":45.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.728468750000005,"end":46.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.196593750000005,"end":47.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.22596875,"end":50.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.010343750000004,"end":53.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.30096875,"end":55.313468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.650968750000004,"end":57.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.21596875,"end":59.532218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.532218750000006,"end":59.93721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.64596875,"end":63.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.61596875,"end":64.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.60721875,"end":66.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.82221875,"end":67.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.66596875,"end":71.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.98596875,"end":72.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.55534375,"end":75.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.64784375,"end":76.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.89659375000001,"end":78.34784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.53346875000001,"end":79.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.60909375,"end":81.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.84096875,"end":82.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.17846875000001,"end":83.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.11909375,"end":85.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.21159375,"end":88.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.23659375000001,"end":95.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.16784375,"end":96.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.31534375000001,"end":100.04909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.63971875,"end":102.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.15409375,"end":106.83284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.18721875,"end":108.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.40221875,"end":111.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.79034375,"end":109.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.87034375,"end":110.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.18221875,"end":113.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.95409375000001,"end":115.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.73846875000001,"end":117.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.83096875000001,"end":120.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.91909375,"end":122.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.94846875,"end":144.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.88596875000002,"end":147.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.15159375000002,"end":146.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.51409375,"end":150.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.67409375,"end":150.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.23096875000002,"end":151.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.36159375,"end":169.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.00034375,"end":171.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.95346875,"end":171.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.97034375,"end":171.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.42596875,"end":173.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.45096875000002,"end":175.29471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.58159375000002,"end":177.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.10034375,"end":177.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":178.06221875,"end":179.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.90596875,"end":184.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.62221875,"end":194.61659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.84971875000002,"end":188.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.37596875,"end":196.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.87784375,"end":196.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.41784375,"end":205.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.55284375000002,"end":197.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.82159375,"end":209.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.63096875000002,"end":213.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.90471875,"end":217.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.58346875,"end":221.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.27471875,"end":228.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.87284375000002,"end":229.15971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.68284375000002,"end":233.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.69909375,"end":245.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":235.21784375000001,"end":235.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.97971875000002,"end":247.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.65471875000003,"end":251.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.12659375,"end":274.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":275.36346875000004,"end":295.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.97221875,"end":298.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.17409375,"end":301.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.24971875,"end":305.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.05909375000005,"end":307.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.55659375000005,"end":309.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.65784375000004,"end":309.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.29909375,"end":309.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.67034375000003,"end":311.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.44221875,"end":321.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.57971875000004,"end":325.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.68034375,"end":330.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.83159375,"end":333.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.44721875000005,"end":334.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.69596875,"end":335.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.70409375,"end":337.63221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.75471875,"end":337.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":337.63221875000005,"end":345.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.82096875,"end":349.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.15346875,"end":351.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.92534375,"end":357.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.40096875,"end":363.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.58596875,"end":363.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.60284375000003,"end":363.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.80534375,"end":363.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.82221875000005,"end":363.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.29471875,"end":366.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.20159375000003,"end":366.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.21846875,"end":366.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.53909375,"end":368.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.00284375,"end":371.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.27159375,"end":379.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.12346875000003,"end":380.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.32159375000003,"end":383.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.46471875000003,"end":383.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.30846875000003,"end":389.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.75909375000003,"end":390.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.78846875000005,"end":391.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.57721875000004,"end":392.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.50534375,"end":395.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.02409375,"end":395.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.15909375,"end":395.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.37846875,"end":395.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.44596875,"end":397.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.22221875,"end":397.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.45409375,"end":400.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.63909375000003,"end":404.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.89596875,"end":414.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.92971875,"end":406.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.52721875000003,"end":420.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.97784375000003,"end":427.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.07909375,"end":421.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.18034375,"end":421.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.07034375,"end":426.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.22159375,"end":430.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.23846875000004,"end":428.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.41534375000003,"end":430.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":430.73159375,"end":431.25471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.75659375000004,"end":440.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.48159375,"end":441.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.15596875000006,"end":442.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.69159375000004,"end":445.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.29034375000003,"end":448.58534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.47534375000004,"end":452.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.62284375,"end":452.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.61846875000003,"end":460.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.83784375000005,"end":452.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.97159375,"end":464.97096875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.591,"end":5.433,"text":"審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留"},{"start":20.723,"end":34.351,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":48.28,"end":56.705,"text":"連地方政府、各縣市政府,我相信你問了每一個縣市政府的承辦人員,可能講的都不一樣,現在面臨這個問題。"},{"start":60.817,"end":85.072,"text":"這怎麼辦?明年你說要上路了,現在大家是走到要死了。我們每一次一出去接到民眾的反應就是說,到底未來我們會不會因為國土計畫,然後我們所有的土地都被禁建,都被限制了,動都動不得,這也很嚴重。"},{"start":86.277,"end":111.335,"text":"第16條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第16條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第16條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第16條條文修正草案案。七、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第16條條文修正草案案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第16條條文修正草案案。九、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第16條條文修正"},{"start":114.011,"end":115.716,"text":"有22個直轄縣市,那請問總共我們現在有幾個縣市?"},{"start":123.144,"end":146.262,"text":"跟委員報告那目前22個縣市裡面把國土功能分區圖草案送到內政部來審議的有三個縣市那包括金門、連江跟花蓮縣政府那其他的縣市據我們的了解目前都在各個縣市的國審會在進行審議當中目前都在審議當中那請問越審民眾越擔憂為什麼"},{"start":152.829,"end":176.778,"text":"跟委員報告那據我們的了解那第一個就是民眾對於未來國土功能分區的一些使用目前大概不是那麼樣的一個了解那另外就是連地方政府縣市政府都不懂了都不了解了請問人民怎麼了解"},{"start":178.997,"end":194.021,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第12條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第12條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具"},{"start":197.809,"end":202.312,"text":"及第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財"},{"start":210.694,"end":227.671,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。"},{"start":229.733,"end":231.996,"text":"對阿,所以你知道嗎,現在網路上好多,趕快趕快,你趕快申辦,你趕快送,現在不送來不及了,我們每天被追著跑,委員阿,快啦,我們的案件要快送啦,沒有送的不會付啦,我說什麼不會付啦。"},{"start":247.065,"end":274.127,"text":"所以我覺得你們是不是應該做一個什麼樣的一個說明然後把這些疑義講得更清楚否則地方政府再審反而民眾更擔憂民眾更恐慌所以才會說你要演啊不要急速上路啊急速上路之後可能百姓沒有辦法接受之後會反射在我們執政團隊的支持度上"},{"start":275.67,"end":286.797,"text":"跟委員報告那我們大概有幾個方向在加強這樣的一個說明第一個在各個縣市政府在辦理國審會的審議的時候我們都國土署會派員到現場回應相關國審會委員的一些問題朱董我跟你說一個最關鍵的因為我時間有限"},{"start":299.364,"end":325.623,"text":"這是我們來自基層我直接跟你說問題在哪裡當你們在第一次做說明會的時候你們是誰去說明市政府市政府我告訴你市政府得到你們的所有訊息都這樣片段片段片段他都得到片段片段片段他怎麼去跟地方說明地方得到訊息又是更片段又更片段"},{"start":326.832,"end":349.561,"text":"所以你們要辦一次是你們中央所有的部會、懂的人、了解的人去做一次徹底的說明這有沒有辦法?跟委員報告其實我們是透過各種機制在跟不管是產官、學界都在加強說明不用產官、學界你跟百姓說明清楚就好了"},{"start":350.219,"end":371.506,"text":"土地是他們啦!產官學界是你們在這個高位當中你們在產官學界啦!百姓我的權益在哪裡我怎麼保護自己最重要啦!做一次徹底的說明啦!這個是我要求然後拜託林業級自然保育署副署長林班弟的問題怎麼解決?"},{"start":380.128,"end":399.315,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。"},{"start":401.684,"end":405.87,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具"},{"start":415.778,"end":435.506,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員"},{"start":442.176,"end":448.221,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。"}]}},{"id":"151331","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151331","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627ded5c4cbc6a1a3438f48eb7d2985ecdbc5dab72e655c1c949d0dce7f622c2f575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:17:29 - 11:26:37","影片長度":"00:09:08","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。【第四案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[15,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":548,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:26:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:17:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":578,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時17分）謝謝主席，有請林業署副署長。"],["主席：我們請林業署副署長。"],["邱委員志偉：還有原民會鍾副主委。"],["主席：請原民會鍾副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：我想副主委跟副署長都瞭解，臺灣森林面積高達220萬公頃，大概占了國土面積的六成，對不對？我們從1991年開始對天然林全面禁伐，對不對？天然林占森林面積大概是七成，人工林大概占兩成，最後一成大概有10%是竹林，竹林的話大概有20萬公頃左右，請教副主委，我們禁伐補償的立法宗旨是什麼？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：為了國土保安、水土保持，當然也是因為土地受到限制，按照原基法第二十一條來做訂定跟補償的一個相關規定。"],["邱委員志偉：所以也是對原住民的生計所受的限制做補償？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["邱委員志偉：那你的補償金額合理嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前補償的金額到去年有22億多。"],["邱委員志偉：補償是每公頃多少錢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：每公頃3萬。"],["邱委員志偉：你覺得這樣夠不夠？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：當然以目前來講……"],["邱委員志偉：有沒有調高的必要？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：很多意見是希望能夠調整。"],["邱委員志偉：那你的意見呢？原民會的意見呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：本會認為，如果要調漲，因為涉及到整體預算的籌編。"],["邱委員志偉：目前每年大概編多少預算？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前會裡面，大概一年、整個部分是22億。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得你做這樣的補償，當然有依據補償相關的規定，在金額上你應該要逐年做動態的檢討跟調整，這部分請你們做參考。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["邱委員志偉：如果地主因為害怕違反禁伐的限制，沒有針對這些瀕老的竹林進行疏伐的撫育，這個會不會違反當初保育的立法原意？副署長，這個你瞭解嗎？我是問副署長，要讓你表現一下啊！"],["林副署長澔貞：當然，如果竹林都沒有去做一些經營整理的話，整體的竹林就會敗壞。"],["邱委員志偉：誰去檢討、誰去勘驗、誰去瞭解他是不是有符合進行相關的疏伐撫育，誰去驗證？"],["林副署長澔貞：這個部分大概就是各相關主管機關。"],["邱委員志偉：主管機關不是你們嗎？"],["林副署長澔貞：對，當然在原住民保留地的部分，是由縣市政府在做一些……"],["邱委員志偉：中央主管機關是你們啊！你們要去瞭解他是否有符合請領補償金的資格、他有沒有達這個保育的立法原意。"],["林副署長澔貞：基本上補償金的部分，是由鄉公所去做一些現場的認定，如果有什麼疑問的話，我們再做協助。"],["邱委員志偉：竹木覆蓋率的認定是誰在認定？"],["林副署長澔貞：基本上是基層鄉公所的同仁。"],["邱委員志偉：這個認定是各機關要充分去協調，你中央要有一個原則，然後各機關去做相關原則的一些討論，而這個覆蓋率認定的標準到底是怎麼樣？"],["林副署長澔貞：這個部分我們也可以運用航拍的部分去做一些判斷。"],["邱委員志偉：為什麼談到覆蓋率？覆蓋率是牽涉到有沒有達到請領的標準，對不對？"],["林副署長澔貞：是，百分之七十以上。"],["邱委員志偉：那林相是否符合這個規定的標準？"],["林副署長澔貞：因為一般來說，大概一開始就是看看他是種什麼樣的樹種，大概就是不一樣……"],["邱委員志偉：你要趕快把這個標準……"],["林副署長澔貞：因為我們有一個造林樹種的規格在那邊。"],["邱委員志偉：你要把一個標準訂定出來，然後加以宣導，地主才會有相關的意願，他會去評估是否有意願，對不對？所以你統一標準訂定出來，然後加強宣導。"],["林副署長澔貞：是。"],["邱委員志偉：林業署應該要做多一點的宣導，做多一點努力，這是主管機關你要去協調各機關、各部會的啊！"],["林副署長澔貞：原民會有一個禁伐補償的實施辦法，實施辦法裡面其實有一些規範。"],["邱委員志偉：副主委，請補充一下。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有，我們是有一些規範，我們在今年的1月8號針對原住民保留地禁伐補償實施辦法裡面有一些規範，要覆蓋率有七成才可以補償……"],["邱委員志偉：那誰去驗證？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：鄉公所還有縣府。"],["邱委員志偉：鄉公所有能力去驗證嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：有，這個部分我們都有相關的工作人員，而且既有的建物、道路跟農路要先扣除掉。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝兩位。接著請環境部氣候變遷署。"],["主席：我們有請蘇組長。"],["邱委員志偉：蘇組長，我時間很短。"],["蘇組長意筠：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：有關於臺灣的碳費制度存在幾個問題，我覺得環境部有這個責任去做釐清，或者是提出解決的方案，我就直接跳到這個問題，你知道李堅明教授嗎？"],["蘇組長意筠：是。"],["邱委員志偉：他說制度上有幾個問題的存在，你們應該去瞭解，關於碳費的用途跟需求導向，以至於碳費沒有辦法獲取共識，你對這點有沒有什麼看法？"],["蘇組長意筠：按照原本氣候法在立法跟我們在施行上的話，我們的碳費其實不是以財政當作一個主要的目的，而是一個機制，希望push企業能夠因為這樣的機制而去減量。"],["邱委員志偉：所以你應該是用需求導向，對不對？"],["蘇組長意筠：應該是說，按照氣候法精神，是以國家達到2050為目標才是我們的導向。"],["邱委員志偉：你這個目標我很清楚，2025開徵，費率要出來，徵收標準也要出來，但目前還沒定案，對不對？"],["蘇組長意筠：現在在審議中。"],["邱委員志偉：你可以如期開徵嗎？"],["蘇組長意筠：我們目前……"],["邱委員志偉：費率什麼時候會出來？"],["蘇組長意筠：部裡面目前朝這個目標來努力。"],["邱委員志偉：費率什麼時候會出來？"],["蘇組長意筠：因為我們現在費率……"],["邱委員志偉：2025是明年了！"],["蘇組長意筠：是。"],["邱委員志偉：那你的徵收標準呢？"],["蘇組長意筠：跟委員報告，目前費率的部分，我們有透過審議會在審議中，所以這個部分都還在進行。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，李堅明教授有提到碳費間接排放的電力係數不是企業可控的，這個部分會造成費基的不公，這個你們去檢討一下，他提出了問題，你們行政機關要去解決問題，提出解決問題的方案。第三點，起徵的門檻也沒有依照產業的特性做一個差異化，這會導致碳洩漏，你有沒有注意到這個問題？"],["蘇組長意筠：跟委員報告，針對起徵門檻的部分，我們在過去這段時間已經跟企業以及經濟部有開了很多的密集會議，我們有在做這個部分的討論，所以各界的意見，我們會把它納入做後續訂定的參考。"],["邱委員志偉：好，你們有注意到這個問題了？"],["蘇組長意筠：是。"],["邱委員志偉：李堅明教授的意見，你們要作為你們很重要的參考。"],["蘇組長意筠：是。"],["邱委員志偉：另外碳權交易抵減的機制也不夠，這個部分有沒有什麼強化的規劃？"],["蘇組長意筠：目前碳權分成兩個部分，在自願減量的辦法跟後續的交易辦法，我們都已經陸續立法或是已經在執行，希望能夠擴充這部分的量能……"],["邱委員志偉：李堅明教授這四大問題就是從制度面去檢視，所以我希望你們一個月之內針對臺灣碳費制度所存在的四大問題，你提出改善規劃的書面報告，可以嗎？"],["蘇組長意筠：可以。"],["邱委員志偉：一個月？"],["蘇組長意筠：是。"],["邱委員志偉：我要遵守質詢時間，時間到，我就要結束，不能占用下一位質詢時間。好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱志偉委員的質詢、謝謝組長，謝謝。","繼續我們請張嘉郡、張嘉郡，張嘉郡委員改書面報告。","我們請楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔，楊瓊瓔委員改書面報告。","謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯委員不在。","邱議瑩、邱議瑩、邱議瑩委員不在。","請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃捷","麥玉珍","張宏陸","許宇甄","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","王美惠","賴瑞隆","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","張智倫","張嘉郡","黃仁","謝衣鳯","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二、\n審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正\n草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例\n第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7.59096875,"end":10.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10.99971875,"end":11.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.016593750000002,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13.04159375,"end":15.167843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.167843750000003,"end":16.551593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20.88846875,"end":24.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":24.567218750000002,"end":28.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":28.887218750000002,"end":31.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":32.36346875,"end":34.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":35.26596875,"end":39.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":39.16409375,"end":42.674093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":43.298468750000005,"end":52.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":52.984718750000006,"end":55.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":55.330343750000004,"end":57.540968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":58.21596875,"end":58.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":58.789718750000006,"end":62.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":62.805968750000005,"end":63.210968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":63.548468750000005,"end":63.953468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":64.44284375000001,"end":64.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.49346875,"end":64.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":64.84784375000001,"end":64.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":65.15159375,"end":74.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":75.02346875,"end":81.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":81.40221875,"end":82.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":84.42284375,"end":85.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.60846875,"end":88.50659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.85659375,"end":92.06721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.50596875000001,"end":93.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.18471875,"end":99.40784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":98.31096875,"end":98.83409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.76221875,"end":102.37784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":102.59721875000001,"end":105.29721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.29721875000001,"end":105.31409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.33096875000001,"end":110.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.06846875000001,"end":116.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.21096875,"end":120.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":120.97409375000001,"end":127.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.47971875,"end":125.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":127.43721875000001,"end":131.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.09909375,"end":131.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":131.80784375000002,"end":131.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":131.84159375000002,"end":138.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":138.23721875,"end":152.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":156.39471875,"end":156.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":157.22159375,"end":158.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":159.01034375,"end":160.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.32221875000002,"end":168.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":168.19034375,"end":170.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":171.37971875000002,"end":175.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":176.56034375000002,"end":177.35346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.36596875,"end":184.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":183.27659375000002,"end":185.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.63909375,"end":188.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.77784375000002,"end":193.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":192.42284375,"end":202.96971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.23534375000003,"end":212.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":213.98909375000002,"end":214.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":214.96784375000001,"end":219.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.67159375000003,"end":222.78096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.15221875,"end":226.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":225.90284375000002,"end":240.60096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.93409375000002,"end":242.22096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.17846875,"end":250.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":251.18159375000002,"end":251.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.62034375000002,"end":252.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":251.63721875000002,"end":256.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.56471875,"end":258.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":257.74596875000003,"end":260.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":262.23471875,"end":262.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.47909375,"end":265.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.49159375,"end":278.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":272.61284375,"end":274.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":276.29159375,"end":283.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":286.02846875,"end":286.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":287.05784375,"end":290.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.71971875,"end":290.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":291.10784375000003,"end":299.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.92909375,"end":309.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":310.29471875,"end":310.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.31159375000004,"end":311.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.20596875,"end":312.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":312.72471875,"end":313.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":315.23909375,"end":316.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":316.57221875000005,"end":319.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":319.44096875,"end":329.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":329.53221875,"end":330.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":329.66721875,"end":330.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":330.32534375,"end":330.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.55721875,"end":333.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":331.60784375000003,"end":332.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":334.29096875000005,"end":335.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":336.68721875,"end":338.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":338.22284375000004,"end":338.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":338.30721875,"end":345.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":346.64346875,"end":346.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":347.92596875000004,"end":352.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.14034375,"end":355.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":358.20284375,"end":359.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":359.70471875000004,"end":361.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.42159375,"end":362.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":364.07534375,"end":378.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":378.46971875,"end":386.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":387.31221875,"end":389.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":391.49721875,"end":391.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":392.23971875,"end":396.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.09971875,"end":413.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.91971875,"end":422.36159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":420.08346875,"end":420.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":421.99034375,"end":428.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.38221875000005,"end":425.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.78284375000004,"end":427.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.84159375,"end":428.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.16221875,"end":432.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":431.74409375000005,"end":432.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":432.58784375000005,"end":432.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.65534375000004,"end":435.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":434.44409375000004,"end":435.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.79409375,"end":438.84846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.05096875000004,"end":439.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.09721875,"end":441.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.71721875000003,"end":446.83034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.99471875,"end":448.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":448.97346875000005,"end":462.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":459.48659375000005,"end":460.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":462.96284375000005,"end":466.62471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":467.63721875000005,"end":468.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":468.76784375000005,"end":473.44221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":474.52221875000004,"end":476.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":476.98596875000004,"end":478.04909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.36971875,"end":494.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":494.97471875,"end":502.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":502.60221875,"end":503.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":504.54284375000003,"end":507.09096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.09096875000006,"end":507.19221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.73221875,"end":517.8234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":517.63784375,"end":534.1415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.36971875,"end":532.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":534.8334687500001,"end":537.6853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":538.4953437500001,"end":543.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.96346875,"end":540.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.40221875,"end":540.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.41909375,"end":540.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.45284375,"end":540.7565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.7565937500001,"end":540.9253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.9253437500001,"end":541.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.00971875,"end":541.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.66346875,"end":547.9622187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.665,"end":10.047,"text":"臺灣森林面積高達220萬公頃,佔了國土面積多少?"},{"start":32.403,"end":57.313,"text":"大概是六成,我們從1991年開始對天然林的全面禁法,全面林佔森林面積大概是七成,人工林大概佔兩成,最後一層大概有10%是竹林,大概竹林的話是20萬公頃左右。"},{"start":58.959,"end":81.756,"text":"那我們禁法補償的立法的宗旨是什麼?那個副主委是為了國土保安、水土保持那當然也是因為土地受到限制按照原基法21條來做訂定一個補償的一個相關規定所以也是對原住民生計做的所說的限制做補償嘛那你的補償金額?目前補償金額到去年有22億多"},{"start":89.912,"end":93.114,"text":"對,補償是每公頃多少錢?每公頃3萬。你覺得這樣夠不夠?當然以目前來講,很多意見是希望能夠調整。那你的意見呢?那個原民會的意見呢?本會是說因為這個如果說要調帳,那是涉及到整個整體預算的籌編。"},{"start":111.124,"end":130.865,"text":"目前每年大家編定多少預算?目前會裡面大概一年是111億、120億整個部分是22億我覺得你既然有補償那當然有補償相關的規定那金額你應該是要逐年做動態的檢討跟調整這部分請你們做參考"},{"start":131.966,"end":152.416,"text":"那這個如果地主因為害怕違反禁法的限制沒有針對這些貧老的竹林進行這個疏伏的疏伐的服役這個會不會違反當初保育的立法的原意這個副署長你也了解嗎副署長副署長副署長要給你表演一下"},{"start":161.42,"end":175.493,"text":"是那當然如果竹林都沒有去做一些經營整理的話那整體的竹林會敗壞那誰去檢討誰去勘驗誰去了解他是不是有符合進行相關的書法服務誰去驗證"},{"start":179.182,"end":202.754,"text":"這個部分大概就是各主管機關各主管機關,主管機關不是你們嗎?對,那當然在原住民保留地的這個部分是由縣市政府在做一些那你們要去,你主管機關中央是你們啊,你們要去了解說是不是他有符合潛艇補償金的資格他有沒有達到這個保育的這個立法原意"},{"start":204.769,"end":218.982,"text":"那這個基本上那個補償金的部分是由相公所去做一些現場的認定那我們再若有什麼疑問的話我們再做協助如果竹木的覆蓋率的認定那個是誰在認定"},{"start":220.731,"end":240.231,"text":"基本上是基層的相公所的同仁。這個認定各機關要重新去協調,中央要有一個原則,然後各機關去做相關的討論跟原則,跟一些討論,覆蓋認定標準到底是怎麼樣?"},{"start":244.489,"end":260.214,"text":"這個部分我們可以從那個也可以用運用那個航拍的這個部分去做一些判斷為什麼覆蓋率?覆蓋率是牽涉到有沒有情形的標準對不對?是那零項是否符合這個規定標準?零項"},{"start":264.48,"end":281.849,"text":"審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第16條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第16條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第16條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第16條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra"},{"start":290.725,"end":297.951,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":316.05,"end":334.882,"text":"有,我們是有一些規範,我們在今年的1月8號針對原住民保留地禁法補償實施的辦法裡面,有一些規範,所以要覆蓋率七成才可以補償。那誰去驗證?相公所?相公所,對,是。還有縣府。"},{"start":336.804,"end":354.237,"text":"相公署有能力去驗證嗎?有,這個部分我們都有相關的工作人員,而且對於既有的建屋道路跟農路要先扣除掉。好,謝謝兩位。主席是不是請環境部氣候邊緣署?我們有請這個蘇組長。這個蘇組長,我時間很長,你也...委員好。"},{"start":364.167,"end":389.297,"text":"有關於台灣碳費制度存在的幾個問題,我覺得衛福部有責任去做釐清或提出解決的方案。」李教授大家都知道,李建民教授你知道嗎?是他說制度上有幾個問題的存在,你們應該去了解這個碳費用途非需求導向"},{"start":391.59,"end":413.275,"text":"所以以至於碳費沒有辦法獲取共識?你對這一點有沒有看法?按照原本氣候法在立法跟我們在執行上的話其實我們碳費其實不是以這個財政當作一個主要的目的而是一個機制希望能夠讓PUSH企業能夠因為這樣的機制而去減量所以你應該用需求導向嘛對不對?"},{"start":414.906,"end":432.682,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅"},{"start":442.132,"end":458.939,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":467.677,"end":493.747,"text":"第三點,啟徵門檻有沒有依照產業的特性做一個差異化,這個會導致這個碳洩漏,你有沒有注意到這個問題?跟委員報告,針對這個啟徵門檻的部分,那目前我們在過去段時間已經跟企業還有跟經濟部整個有開很多密集的會議,我們有在做這個部分的一個討論,所以這個各界意見我們會把它納入做後續定點的一個參考。你有沒有注意到這個問題?是。"},{"start":495.049,"end":506.752,"text":"立法院第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第12條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第12條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第12條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第12條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":523.535,"end":526.296,"text":"條例第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"}]}},{"id":"151330","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151330","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627594186ebfe66b6a1068d0b55d8f96a4ec5dab72e655c1c948403647dd55c224a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:58:16 - 13:08:00","影片長度":"00:09:44","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":584,"end_time":"2024-04-17T13:08:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:58:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":620,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時58分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長好。今天國防部的專案報告題目是潛艦國造目前進度的報告，但是現在我們最重要的背後推手，潛艦國造專案的召集人、國安會諮詢委員黃曙光昨天突然對外證實提出辭呈，請問部長，黃曙光有跟您知會嗎？你是何時得知這個消息的？"],["邱部長國正：他沒有跟我知會的問題啦，我也是昨天晚上有耳聞，聽說他好像提出請辭，然後總統還沒有批等等，今天早上看到報紙確定，而他也寫了一篇感言，我是看到之後才知道。"],["羅委員智強：我想請教的是，總統沒有慰留他嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我不知道，我真的……"],["羅委員智強：我想問一個問題，您是國防部長，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["羅委員智強：國防事務基本上都是你的業務，對不對？我想請教你，你覺得黃曙光作為潛艦國造專案召集人，他稱職嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員多講兩句，我跟他有幾度的共事機會，我的感覺就是他做事情認真負責。像這種人員，他到任何地方，他都會稱職，而且認真負責。"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["邱部長國正：也就是認真負責會讓他稱職，但因為稱職，他會更加地認真負責，這是我對他的看法。"],["羅委員智強：認真負責、稱職的人最後身心俱疲要離開，總統也沒有慰留他。"],["邱部長國正：我不知道。"],["羅委員智強：至少沒有看到新聞訊息。請問到底是為什麼？是因為他稱職，還是他不稱職呢？我要特別講，潛艦國造不是兒戲啊！今天專案召集人就這樣子不見了，那我就想請教一個。剛剛我們部長也說非常尊敬他嘛！說他專業嘛！你會不會可以去跟我們，不管是現在的總統，還是未來的總統說一下、問一下，未來潛艦國造還要不要借重黃曙光的專才？還是就讓他卸甲歸田，就不用理他了？"],["邱部長國正：我沒有這個權力同意他或不同意他，但我講一個老袍澤的……"],["羅委員智強：您作為一個國防部長，你肯定他的專業……"],["邱部長國正：對，我肯定。"],["羅委員智強：為了潛艦國造計畫的延續性。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["羅委員智強：那你要不要跟我們現在的總統還有未來的總統建議一下？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我大概不會這樣建議，因為他等於是諮詢委員，跟我不是一個系列，我沒有權責去做這個建議。另外我跟他接觸，我也鼓舞我們專案人員要跟他保持接觸，因為他畢竟付出很大的心力，也很專業。我想，帶領專案團隊一路走來，一定有很多意見交換，再加上溝通，我想這個袍澤之情應該是可以持續，不會因為他職務不做了，就沒了，我想這是可以持續來保持聯絡的，也是高層工作推動很有幫助的一股助力嘛！"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["羅委員智強：我的結論很簡單啦！潛艦國造這麼重要的事情，我感覺連專案召集人都可以這麼草率地，發個聲明，然後身心俱疲就離開了，那國人怎麼樣嚴肅看待這麼重要的一個國防案子呢？所以我真的也是呼籲我們的民進黨政府，不要連最基本的人事都輕忽。","我想請教下一個，可以從媒體資訊看到，國造潛艦專案小組要解編，總統府跟國安會要設立先進國防事務辦公室，推動潛艦後續的打造，也要推動新一代的武器建購。先進國防事務辦公室對於國造潛艦工作，有一說就是潛艦主導權要回歸國防部及海軍司令部，那後續工作會由誰來完成？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，這個先進國防事務辦公室早上媒體有問我，我還真的沒聽到過，我到目前都還沒有聽到過，所以我也不了解什麼叫先進國防事務辦公室。但將來不管這個工作由誰接手、不接手，專案小組是存在的，他們有很多不管節點的管控或者工作推動，它會持續做的，至於是哪個單位主導？當然是國防部嘛！國防部要負全責嘛！國防部把這個責任交給海軍，因為海軍是專業嘛！而且將來他們的戰力要用的嘛！這個層層節制的這種組織概念，那是不會變的。"],["羅委員智強：我也是認同剛剛部長講的，我覺得基本上潛艦國造不是在玩文字遊戲……"],["邱部長國正：不是。"],["羅委員智強：你講一個好像很炫、很酷的名字，叫先進國防事務辦公室，根本本質潛艦國造專案小組……如果是運作上它就有過去運作的機制的話，怎麼換一個總統，你就要把這機制……連召集人都不見了！都不見了！然後這個機制你也要重新去動！所以我剛剛第二遍說潛艦國造不是兒戲，這才是我今天要跟我們政府特別呼籲的。","第三個，我要問一下我們的部長。因為蔡總統在進行國政交接，她有帶賴清德總統當選人看潛艦國造海鯤號的進度。之前新聞也寫說，賴清德聽完簡報，當場表示後續7艘潛艦不必分批建造，要一次完成。我想請教一下部長，實務上做得到嗎？一次完成？"],["邱部長國正：所謂一次，就是一樣要一艘或兩艘一起來嘛！不是講一下子7艘通通進度一模一樣，這是一個解讀的問題。我們沒有講說能不能完成，我覺得建軍就這樣子，你預算足夠，而且獲得管道沒有任何疑慮的話，那沒有什麼東西完成不了。但是時間的長短就要看實際運作狀況。"],["羅委員智強：其實剛剛部長回答裡面就不是一次完成嘛！我覺得作為一位未來的總統，說真的講話語意要清楚，不要引起誤解，你講一次造7艘，先不講這天價的預算，更重要的是，請問生產線、廠辦，還有所有的人力、專業的支撐都是問題吧？部長。我們有這麼大的量能一次造7艘嗎？像你剛剛講，其實所謂一次造7艘還是得分批造啦！是不是這個意思？"],["邱部長國正：對。我覺得這個遣詞用語，因為好像每個人對於「一次」的講法，會造成大家來討論。像剛剛陳委員也給我們建議，我覺得這建議很好，「一系列」。我們以後軍方會有這個方法，但是不外乎也一定要按部就班地來嘛！"],["羅委員智強：所以我跟部長說，你一次開7條生產線、人員、機具、物料，我就問部長一個問題，他說一次造7艘，有跟你商量過嗎？沒有？"],["邱部長國正：沒有，因為這是一個表達，我們不去做一個……"],["羅委員智強：我跟部長說，我當過總統府副秘書長，兩岸國防、外交也是我們當時在總統府的核心幕僚的工作之一。這麼重大的事情，真的不能夠當兒戲一樣親口就隨便說出來。如果說在以前總統要談這麼重大的潛艦國造問題的話，他一定會找部長的嘛！不是嗎？他一定會找今天國防相關專業的單位來去商量過之後，才會說出今天到底我們潛艦國造未來的方向，而不是今天龍心大悅，一句聖裁！賴清德聖裁，然後整個潛艦國造原來走的既定進程就要被帶著走，這不是一個專業的事情。","最後我跟各位說，我覺得民進黨政府在潛艦國造的事情，最近的發展就3個兒戲。黃曙光說走就走，就是一個兒戲嘛！然後專案辦公室又搞出一個什麼先進國防辦公室，第2個兒戲。第3個兒戲就是，你既有進程能夠把它完成，我們就按部就班走，這是一個穩健的國防政策，賴清德就很兒戲地講，聖裁出來說一次要蓋7艘啊！那不就造成今天軍方的困擾，造成我們國防單位的困擾，也造成我們人民的疑慮！所以拜託！身為總統、未來的總統，真的發言要謹慎。以上。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","請吳思瑤、吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在。","請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請游顥、游顥、游顥委員不在。","請徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","請邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","請林憶君、林憶君、林憶君委員不在。","我們今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外，均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有林憶君委員、王鴻薇委員、邱志偉委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，並刊登公報。請相關機關以書面於兩週內答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-13","speakers":["馬文君","林楚茵","黃仁","陳永康","羅美玲","王定宇","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","李柏毅","洪孟楷","羅智強","林憶君","王鴻薇","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢（含秘密會議）","agenda_id":"1133001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.00471875,"end":7.236593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.759718750000001,"end":8.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.33221875,"end":18.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.99846875,"end":45.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.08284375,"end":62.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.41346875000001,"end":64.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.01659375,"end":66.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.97409375000001,"end":67.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.17659375000001,"end":67.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.22721875,"end":71.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.54721875,"end":81.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.79034375,"end":87.66284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.05096875000001,"end":108.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.03096875,"end":114.15659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.19034375000001,"end":117.76784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.80159375000001,"end":119.01659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.05034375000001,"end":121.54784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.61534375000001,"end":125.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.32346875,"end":130.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.60971875,"end":132.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.49971875,"end":143.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.16034375,"end":146.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.21034375000002,"end":151.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.51784375,"end":151.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.10846875000001,"end":152.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.19284375,"end":152.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.29409375,"end":152.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.47971875000002,"end":160.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.18784375,"end":164.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.38534375,"end":162.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.74784375000002,"end":165.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.89971875,"end":166.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.90784375,"end":167.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.32971875,"end":172.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.67909375000002,"end":172.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.74659375000002,"end":172.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.83096875,"end":172.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.88159375,"end":172.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.93221875,"end":173.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.03346875,"end":173.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.05034375000002,"end":173.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.87721875,"end":210.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.25534375,"end":217.73534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.73534375000003,"end":217.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.88721875000002,"end":218.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.03909375,"end":221.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.17346875,"end":224.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.07596875000002,"end":233.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.03659375,"end":235.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.89284375000003,"end":243.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.43159375000002,"end":249.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.48971875,"end":256.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.56471875,"end":268.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.17034375000003,"end":269.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.31784375,"end":285.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.18034375,"end":292.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.54221875,"end":294.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.61784375,"end":298.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.61721875,"end":305.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.36284375,"end":314.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.20534375,"end":321.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.60096875,"end":326.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.57909375,"end":327.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.73096875000005,"end":327.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.03471875,"end":327.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.72659375,"end":328.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.03034375000004,"end":329.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.59534375000004,"end":337.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.69971875000005,"end":339.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.37846875,"end":344.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.25971875000005,"end":347.75721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.38159375000004,"end":349.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.05221875,"end":352.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.74784375,"end":356.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.51096875,"end":365.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.54346875000005,"end":368.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.28971875,"end":375.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.83721875000003,"end":378.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.73971875,"end":388.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.35409375,"end":390.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.76721875000004,"end":393.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.50096875,"end":395.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.56846875,"end":394.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.81721875000005,"end":409.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.12721875000005,"end":418.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.32409375000003,"end":424.92659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.40346875,"end":424.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.92659375000005,"end":424.96034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.96034375000005,"end":424.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.97721875,"end":427.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.43659375000004,"end":435.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.23284375000003,"end":439.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.42221875,"end":441.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.18971875000005,"end":443.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.40034375000005,"end":445.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.69971875000005,"end":446.37471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.91471875,"end":449.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.80034375,"end":450.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.42034375000003,"end":452.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.39471875000004,"end":459.94221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.29659375000006,"end":460.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.46534375000005,"end":460.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.53284375000004,"end":460.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.54971875,"end":460.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.68471875,"end":461.24159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.32596875,"end":480.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.02346875,"end":485.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.57096875,"end":490.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.62096875000003,"end":491.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.30409375000005,"end":498.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.02909375,"end":501.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.14659375,"end":506.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.54659375000006,"end":514.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.1615937500001,"end":527.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.37471875,"end":548.9578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.3459687500001,"end":551.8940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.23159375,"end":565.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.59659375,"end":569.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.04721875,"end":581.6953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.5390937500001,"end":583.2140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.41659375,"end":583.8047187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.041,"end":18.002,"text":"主席有請部長請邱部長各位好部長好"},{"start":19.096,"end":45.605,"text":"今天國防部的專案報告題目是潛艦國造目前進度的報告但是現在我們最重要的背後推手潛艦國造專案的召集人國安會諮詢委員黃素光昨天卻突然對外證實提出辭呈請問部長我們的黃素光他有跟您知會嗎你是何時得知這個消息的"},{"start":46.121,"end":46.982,"text":"我想請教,總統沒有未留他嗎?"},{"start":69.138,"end":79.633,"text":"我想問一個問題您是國防部長 對不對國防事務基本上都是你的業務 對不對"},{"start":81.872,"end":103.441,"text":"那我想請教你你覺得黃素光作為潛艦國造專案的召集人他稱職嗎我跟委員報多講兩句我跟他有幾度的共識的一個機會我的感覺就是他做事情認真負責像這種人員他到任何地方他都會稱職而且認真負責你就認真負責會讓他稱職但越稱職他會更加的認真負責所以我對他看法"},{"start":108.443,"end":125.263,"text":"認真負責稱職的人最後身心俱疲要離開總統也沒有慰留他至少沒有看到新聞訊息那請問到底是為什麼是因為他稱職還是他不稱職呢我要特別講就是說這潛艦國造不是兒戲啊"},{"start":126.497,"end":146.888,"text":"今天專案召集人就這樣子不見了那我就想請教一個那剛剛這個我們部長也說非常尊重非常尊敬他嘛就他專業嘛你會不會可以去跟我們不管是現在的總統還是未來的總統說一下問一下那還要不要借重黃樹光的專產未來潛艦國造還是就讓他這個卸甲歸田"},{"start":153,"end":169.514,"text":"我沒有這個權利就同意他或不同意他但我想說您作為一個國防部長你覺得你肯定他的專業為了潛艦國造的所謂的計畫的延續性那你要不要能夠跟我們現在的這個總統還有未來的總統"},{"start":174.058,"end":193.33,"text":"我跟委員報告,我大概不會這樣建議,因為他等於諮詢委員,跟我不是一個系列,我沒有這個權責去做這個建議。另外我跟他接觸,我也鼓舞我們專業人員要跟他保持接觸,因為他畢竟是付出很大的心力,也很專業。我想帶領這個專業團隊,專業團隊一路走來一定有很多"},{"start":198.353,"end":199.354,"text":"謝謝部長我的結論很簡單潛艦國造這麼重要的事情"},{"start":225.114,"end":249.331,"text":"我覺得感覺在連專案召集人都可以這麼草率的然後發個聲明然後身心俱疲就離開了你叫國人怎麼樣嚴肅看待這麼重要的一個國防的一個案子呢所以我真的也是呼籲我們的民進黨政府不要對連最基本人士都輕忽那我想請教下一個就是說"},{"start":250.558,"end":268.355,"text":"那麼可以從媒體資訊看到國造潛艦專業小組要解編啦那總統府跟國安會要設立先進國防事務辦公室然後推動潛艦後續的打造也要推動新一代的武器建構那"},{"start":270.433,"end":291.538,"text":"先進國防事務辦公室對於潛艦國造的一個國造潛艦工作有一說就是潛艦主導權要回歸國防部及海軍司令部那後續工作會由誰來完成啊我跟委員報告我這個先進國防事務辦公室早上媒體有問我我還真的沒聽到過"},{"start":292.591,"end":321.136,"text":"我到目前我都還沒有聽到過所以我也不知道怎麼樣先進國防事務辦公室但我我我敢說講說將來不管這個工作比如誰接手不接手問題專案小組是存在的他們有很多不管節點的管控或者工作推動他們會持續做的所以哪會主導在國防部嘛這國防部要負全責嘛國防部把這個責任交給海軍因為海軍的專業嘛而且將來他們的戰力要用的嘛"},{"start":326.818,"end":347.348,"text":"我也是覺得 認同剛剛部長講的我覺得基本上 潛艦國造不是在玩文字遊戲你講一個好像很炫很酷的名字叫先進國防事務辦公室根本本質潛艦國造專案小組如果是運作上他就有他過去運作的機制的話"},{"start":348.387,"end":349.027,"text":"第三個我就要問一下我們的部長"},{"start":369.346,"end":390.615,"text":"因為蔡總統在進行國政交接他有去帶賴清德總統當選看潛艦國造海昆號的進度那這之前新聞也顯出賴清德聽完簡報當場表示後續7艘潛艦不必分批建造要一次完成我想請教一下部長實務上做得到嗎"},{"start":394.6,"end":409.248,"text":"一次完成所以一次就是一樣要一艘或兩艘一起來嘛不講一家伙七艘通通進度一模一樣這是一個解讀的問題我們沒有講說能不能完成"},{"start":410.228,"end":413.612,"text":"其實剛剛部長回答裡面就不是一次完成"},{"start":428.697,"end":451.699,"text":"我就覺得作為一個未來的總統講話其實說真的講話語意要清楚不要引起誤解你講一次造7艘先不講這天價的預算更重要是請問生產線、廠辦還有所有的人力專業的支撐都是問題吧部長"},{"start":453.444,"end":460.939,"text":"我們有這麼大的量能一次造七艘嗎?像你剛剛講其實所謂一次造七艘還是得分批造啦是不是這個意思?"},{"start":461.516,"end":463.198,"text":"所以我跟部長說就是說你一次開7條生產線人員積聚物料"},{"start":486.616,"end":489.077,"text":"我跟部長說我當過總統府副秘書長兩岸國防外交也是我們當時在總統府的核心幕僚的工作之一"},{"start":507.911,"end":526.738,"text":"這麼重大的事情真的不能夠所謂的當兒戲一樣親口就隨便說出來如果說在以前總統要談這麼重大的潛艦國造問題的話他一定會找部長的嘛不是嗎他一定會找今天專業的國防的相關專業的單位來去商量過之後"},{"start":527.478,"end":547.923,"text":"然後才會去說出今天到底我們《潛艦國造》未來的一個方向不是今天榮興大院一句盛財戴清德盛財然後我們就整個《潛艦國造》的一個原來走的既定進程就要被帶著走這不是一個專業的事情最後我跟各位說我覺得民進黨政府在《潛艦國造》的事情最近的發展就三個兒戲"},{"start":549.663,"end":569.711,"text":"黃素光說走就走就是一個噁心嘛然後專案辦公室又搞出一個什麼先進國防辦公室第二個噁心第三個噁心就是你既有進程能夠把它完成我們就按部就班走這是一個穩健的國防政策阿賴清德就很噁心的講聖才出來說一次要蓋7艘阿"},{"start":571.087,"end":571.107,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"151326","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151326","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627ec3f77b12a04f8cacf744a9f110b3b1fc5dab72e655c1c94231dcb1897cc80d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"13:07:04 - 13:13:20","影片長度":"00:06:16","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":376,"end_time":"2024-04-17T13:13:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T13:07:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1112,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（13時7分）有請黃主委。"],["主席：有請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["吳委員春城：主委，你辛苦了，聽到你不續任滿驚訝的，因為雖然你一直被稱為是在任最久的金管會主委，大家也都盛讚你的能力，操守有為有守，有口皆碑，也說你雖然任期這麼久，高層也一直猶豫，覺得是不是應該要有創新，還是捨不得，結果就是因為一個羅明才邀宴事件，我現在看了新聞，就有黨內群起攻之、此風不可長，然後我們的長官就動搖了，是不是這個樣子？我是看新聞的。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想昨天卓準院長有說明內閣調整的原因，我沒有其他的意見。"],["吳委員春城：反正我覺得如果是這樣就太昏庸了，這樣的長官就太昏庸了，但是如果不是這樣的話，長官也應該還給你一些公道，而且說明或者其他的，不過這不是我今天要談的事情。今天要感謝你，我這兩個多月來針對高齡金融的問題跟金管會有很多的質詢、互動，特別是在陳建仁院長總質詢的時候，我提出了要求金管會比照綠色金融政策來建立高齡社會的金融政策，因為就是我在提倡的所謂壯世代，現在55歲以上的在臺灣有800萬人了，這群人掌握了臺灣三分之二的財富，但是他們過得又貧又窮、又困又弱，整個高齡社會這塊崩潰。主委在經過這些溝通當中也有感，所以我們的綠色金融做得非常成功，在你手上推動得非常成功，所以很有經驗，也希望你比照這樣子來建立高齡社會的金融戰略，提出金融行動方案和上市櫃公司的永續發展報告。這兩項我在上禮拜有得到金管會正面的回復，其實我今天並不是要質詢你，我是要肯定你，我在這裡也要挺金管會黃主委的政策，也宣示我們在這裡財經單位、我們很多的事務官、行政部門要把這樣的承諾延續下去。","4月12日金管會給我的公文承諾了剛才那個是陳建仁院長同意的兩個措施，我在這裡再宣示一次，第一點，金管會刻正研擬高齡金融行動方案，持續強化促進高齡經濟發展相關措施，構築高齡者友善金融環境。金管會在這裡有認知高齡者需求具有高度的異質性，不要一視視為老人，高齡者不應被視為社會的依賴者，應該發展多元的服務方案，讓高齡者有自主選擇的空間，滿足其異質性的需求。第二點，對於高齡者可以鬆綁商品的限制，可以從事多元金融的商品投資，簡化投資的手續。第三點，金管會現在刻正對於多元高齡族群的金融需求，研擬高齡金融行動方案，初步規劃從資金面向、商品面向、培力面向及生態系面向等四大推動面向來翻轉高齡金融族群的需求。可以看得出來主委有聽進去，朝著構築四大面向來推動高齡金融。其次，就是有關上市櫃公司的高齡永續發展措施，金管會會把治理的評鑑指標列為要求交易所來列入上市櫃公司做報告的事項。另外，針對申請股票上市櫃的公司，就公司與高齡有關的員工福利、產品生產和服務進行了解，列入申請上市櫃公司的審查參考，以上，是不是主委的研議？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實前面那四個面向我們正在積極處理中，我會儘快至少讓它更成熟，特別跟你報告。"],["吳委員春城：期待你的努力，我們接下來也都能夠延續，看到這個時代的需要，打造長壽經濟，把一場災難的銀髮海嘯轉變成國家發展的動力。謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳春城委員的質詢。","徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員不在。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員，邱志偉委員不在。","王定宇委員、王定宇委員，王定宇委員不在。","今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢，本次會議作如下決定：一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關部會於一週內以書面答復，委員另有要求期限者，從其所定。委員陳亭妃、王定宇、邱志偉所提書面質詢，均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關部會以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-8","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","王世堅","顏寬恒","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","羅明才","林楚茵","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","吳春城","陳亭妃","王定宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就\n「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.08909375,"end":8.755343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.31221875,"end":9.953468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.375343750000003,"end":11.016593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.67471875,"end":14.813468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.14721875,"end":12.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.353468750000001,"end":21.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.25534375,"end":36.565343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.10534375,"end":50.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.28034375,"end":53.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.19971875,"end":71.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.25596875000001,"end":80.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.75784375,"end":74.98971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.66471875,"end":76.01909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.65971875000001,"end":115.28721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.60784375,"end":126.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.25159375000001,"end":145.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.35846875000001,"end":220.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.04284375,"end":234.59346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.16721875000002,"end":255.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.24409375,"end":279.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.29096875,"end":308.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.58596875,"end":346.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.22159375,"end":349.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.08159375,"end":359.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.38846875,"end":358.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.14784375000005,"end":376.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.66846875000005,"end":375.97221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.39,"end":13.645,"text":"有請黃主委主委你好你辛苦了"},{"start":16.774,"end":36.212,"text":"聽到你不續任是蠻驚訝的因為雖然你一直被稱為在任最久的金管會主委那大家也都盛讚你的能力"},{"start":37.193,"end":52.482,"text":"抄手、有為有守、有口接鱉那也說雖然你任期這麼久高層呢有一種猶豫就覺得是不是應該有創新還是捨不得結果呢就是因為一個"},{"start":54.446,"end":56.268,"text":"羅明財妖艷事件"},{"start":72.301,"end":75.164,"text":"反正我覺得如果是這樣就太昏庸了這樣的長官就太昏庸了但是如果不是這樣子的話"},{"start":90.178,"end":113.821,"text":"那個長官應該要還給你一些公道一些說明或者是其他的啦但這一個不是我今天要談的事情今天呢要感謝你那這個我其實這兩個多月來針對這個高齡金融的問題然後也跟金管會有很多的"},{"start":115.983,"end":143.334,"text":"質詢、互動那特別是在我們陳建仁這個院長的總質詢的時候我提出了要要求金管會比照綠色金融政策來建立高齡社會的金融政策因為就是我在提倡的所謂壯世代現在55歲以上的人在台灣有800萬人了這一群人掌握了三分之二的台灣的"},{"start":144.494,"end":150.439,"text":"主委在經過這些溝通當中也有感所以我們的綠色金融做得非常成功在你手上推動得非常成功"},{"start":163.809,"end":181.837,"text":"所以很有經驗也希望你比照這樣子來建立高齡社會的金融戰略提出金融行動方案還有上市規公司的永續發展的報告這兩項我在上禮拜有得到金管會"},{"start":182.937,"end":183.337,"text":"金管會公文4月12日"},{"start":210.129,"end":234.061,"text":"承諾了剛才那個是陳建仁院長同意的兩個措施我在這裡再次宣誓一次第一點就是金管會克正研擬高齡金融行動方案持續強化促進高齡經濟發展相關措施構築高齡者友善金融環境"},{"start":235.242,"end":255.436,"text":"那金管會在這裡有認知高齡者需求具有高度的益職性不要以前都一視視為老人高齡者不應被視為社會的依賴者應該發展多元的服務方案讓高齡者有自主選擇的空間滿足其益職性的需求"},{"start":257.277,"end":279.006,"text":"所以第二點就是要對於高齡者可以鬆綁商品的限制可以從事多元金融的商品投資簡化投資的手續那第三點就金管會現在呢克正對於多元高齡族群的金融需求嚴密高齡金融行動方案"},{"start":280.607,"end":307.964,"text":"初步規劃從資金面向、商品面向、培力面向還有生態系的面向四大推動面向來翻轉這個高齡金融的族群的需求那希望這個剛才可以看得出來主委有聽進去朝著這個構築四大面向要來推動這個高齡的金融那第二點"},{"start":309.653,"end":325.892,"text":"就是有關上市櫃公司的高齡永續發展的措施那金管會會把這個治理的評鑑指標類為要求交易所來列入上市櫃公司做報告的事項"},{"start":326.713,"end":346.819,"text":"第二點對於公司股票上市申請的上市櫃公司要對於高齡有關的員工的福利、產品的生產還有服務進行要列入申請上市櫃公司的審查參考以上是不是主委你的原意"},{"start":351.124,"end":369.541,"text":"有其實前面那四個面向我們正在積極處理中我會盡快把它至少有更成熟特別跟您報告所以期待這個你的努力然後我們接下來的也都看到那個延續看到這個時代的需要打造長壽經濟把一場災難的引發海嘯轉變成國家發展的動力好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151325","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151325","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016279cb445a7715c4e74cf744a9f110b3b1fc5dab72e655c1c94b066f83588e7a26e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:58:54 - 13:06:42","影片長度":"00:07:48","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":468,"end_time":"2024-04-17T13:06:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:58:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1055,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時58分）主席、在場委員先進、列席政府機關首長官員、會場工作伙伴、媒體記者女士先生，有請金管會黃主委、保險局施局長、財政部莊部長及賦稅署宋署長。"],["主席：請四位。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：兩位部長好、署長好、局長好。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委、部長，剛剛聽了伍委員的質詢，我覺得有一點失望，擺明了目前三大融資公司是因為證交法上市櫃才得以納入金管會以證交法的方式來監管，剛剛要求的繼承人是不是可以查詢被繼承人的資產、負債狀況，因為目前資產公司、融資公司沒有納管，我們就沒有辦法提供這個資料給國稅局，所以繼承人就沒辦法去拋棄繼承，這很嚴重，主委覺得這種事情可以讓它繼續發生嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，它提供稅賦的資料，現在的經濟部，融資公司也是有登記的，可以……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以次長……"],["黃主任委員天牧：重點是要有平臺讓稅捐單位去處理。"],["鍾委員佳濱：經濟部次長在嗎？你可以來幫忙嗎？這問題很簡單，你可不可以幫忙處理？可以嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：委員好。我們目前沒有融資公司這個登記業別。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛！請回。這一題就很清楚，大家在踢皮球，融資公司最大的3間是因為證交法上市櫃才被金管會納管，資料你可以要求它提供，那就對這3間，請金管會跟財政部配合，把這3間本身民間債務的部分能夠提供給國稅局，可以嗎？它不是銀行業，它不是你們說的金融機構，它是上市櫃公司，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：租賃公司我們可以洽它的公會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這3家就好了，我沒有要其他的，這3家上市櫃公司歸你們管吧！證期局可不可以要求，張局長，可不可以要求這3家上市櫃公司提供？資產大部分都在他們身上，可以嗎？先從這3家來。"],["張局長振山：這3家要看它的性質，如果要提供的話，因為所有的上市櫃公司都要一同。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這3家就好了，因為它是做融資、不良債權收購，就這3家，主委可以承諾嗎？還是你不敢承諾？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個因為我們在法規上沒有直接監管，但是我們有溝通管道，可以洽公會。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請你們回去研議，不浪費時間了。接下來請教同樣的事情，融資公司所取得的債權可以跟人家追債，它可以用保單要求強制解約來取得他的保價金，主委知道這個強制解約的數量暴增嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我的了解有在增加中。"],["鍾委員佳濱：增加多少？局長，增加多少？是不是這麼多？"],["施局長瓊華：數量很高。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在你當局長那時候就發生這個事情，為什麼這麼多件？都是因為為了追債，要求把要保人的保單解約，取得保價金，為什麼？怎麼造成的？什麼原因造成的？以前可以嗎？局長請說。"],["施局長瓊華：之前比較少，後來大法庭有一個解釋。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，我們看一下大法庭解釋，111年大法庭就解釋了，可以核發執行命令終止債務人為要保人之人壽保險契約。請問保險局，為什麼保險契約可以作為債權強制執行的標的？這你應該很熟悉嘛！我不是第一個問的，什麼原因？"],["施局長瓊華：因為保單……"],["鍾委員佳濱：它是要保人的財產，對不對？"],["施局長瓊華：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：既然是財產，債權人當然可以追，是不是這樣子？主委也同意嘛！請問一下莊部長，你知不知道你們賦稅署有去就人民欠國家的債也去要求把保單解約，有沒有？你知不知道這個情況？"],["莊部長翠雲：有，在個案上是有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼你們要針對欠稅民眾的保單聲請強制執行？沒有其他方式追稅嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有其他的方式，請署長來說。"],["莊部長翠雲：他查完以後沒有其他適合的財產可以去強制執行的時候。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是沒有其他適合的財產，都脫產了啦！動產、不動產可以脫產嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：保單有人說它有一身專屬性，不太容易脫，所以債務人作為保單的要保人，他來不及脫產，所以債權人才能追到他身上，是不是這樣子？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這就是因為保單解約成為債權人追債很重要的標的，就是它的性質跟動產、不動產相比不容易脫產，所以連國家要追稅都追到保單。請問保險局局長，保單這樣強制解約之後會產生什麼問題？"],["施局長瓊華：強制解約以後，它的保障就沒有了，尤其是一些保障型商品，後面的一些……"],["鍾委員佳濱：保單壽險的主約如果受到強制執行，取得保價金，要保人的附約，以他為受益人的健康險、癌症險等等統統都沒有了，是不是這樣子？你覺得這合理嗎？這是不是殺雞取卵？你們後來怎麼做？"],["施局長瓊華：是有點不合理，所以我們後來有找業者討論附約的部分是不是應該給他一個延續。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個題目我們另外再討論。主委、部長，你們看看，債務人就是保險要保人，他如果欠款，只要去法院聲請強制執行，核發執行命令，保險公司就終止壽險契約，然後受人也喪失了保險金的請求。請問主委，你知道嗎？一般來講，我們把保約解約之後，我可以取得保價金和受益人受這個保險的潛在利益成比例嗎？你所知道的情況？"],["黃主任委員天牧：當然不成比例。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不成比例，殺雞取卵嘛！債權人拿回一點點，債務人為要保人的保單解約之後，他的受益人損失慘重，有沒有辦法解決？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個部分依我的了解，保險局有委外做研究，要求受益人有一些權力介入。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對的，很好。其實在上一屆我所尊敬的江永昌委員就問過了，花錢繳保費卻可能被拿去還債，他在2021年4月17日要求你們研議介入權入法，研議進度如何？"],["施局長瓊華：委外的報告現在完成了，我們正在做後續的評估。"],["鍾委員佳濱：要不要告訴大家你們研議的方向大概是怎樣？介紹一下什麼是介入權？大陸法系的介入權是怎麼樣？"],["施局長瓊華：就介入權的部分，如果是受益人的部分可以介入，還有一些法制作業要處理，我們在評估它的相關效益。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委跟部長，我對黃主委也很尊敬，也是希望這件事情可不可以在你卸任前，要求保險局趕快提出，1個月內提出修法的建議。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們朝這個方向努力，謝謝。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你承諾了。部長，以後有介入權，你們國稅局追稅就不用去解約無辜受益人所受益的保單，造成他的損失，你願不願意見到這樣的情況？介入權就是由受益人提出，他幫要保人的債務進行部分的清償，以取得不解約的條件，保障受益人的受益權，你會接受這樣的概念嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，如果相關的法規修正，我們當然要遵循。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝主席、謝謝主委、謝謝部長，部長承諾1個月內，局長OK嗎？點頭就表示同意了，主委也同意。"],["黃主任委員天牧：可以，我們朝這方向努力。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員的質詢。","接著請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員不在。","接著請蔡易餘、蔡易餘，蔡易餘委員不在。","接著請游顥、游顥，游顥委員不在。","接著請何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員，何欣純委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","接著我們請吳春城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-8","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","王世堅","顏寬恒","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","羅明才","林楚茵","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","吳春城","陳亭妃","王定宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就\n「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.61284375,"end":15.184718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.927218750000002,"end":17.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.80471875,"end":17.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.550968750000003,"end":22.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.52534375,"end":23.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.79096875,"end":24.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.97221875,"end":28.313468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.17409375,"end":33.392843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.612218750000004,"end":35.805968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.649718750000005,"end":38.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.60721875,"end":40.463468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.17221875,"end":42.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.80909375,"end":43.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.445968750000006,"end":47.618468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.837843750000005,"end":48.765968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.93471875,"end":51.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.29284375,"end":54.87471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.16159375,"end":55.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.19096875,"end":59.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.71784375,"end":61.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.43471875,"end":68.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.52659375,"end":68.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.99909375,"end":69.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.15096875,"end":73.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.93096875,"end":75.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.96846875,"end":78.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.32221875,"end":80.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.93784375,"end":83.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.37659375000001,"end":87.81471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.47721875,"end":91.39221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.74659375,"end":93.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.34971875000001,"end":98.59784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.81721875000001,"end":103.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.93034375,"end":105.55034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.71909375000001,"end":106.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.69784375,"end":107.89596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.62159375,"end":109.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.49909375,"end":111.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.11909375,"end":112.50284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.77284375,"end":115.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.47721875,"end":116.53596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.26159375,"end":118.64534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.45534375000001,"end":120.06284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.28221875000001,"end":120.72096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.02471875,"end":121.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.20971875000001,"end":127.50471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.85909375000001,"end":129.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.68159375000002,"end":131.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.39034375,"end":130.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.36909375000002,"end":136.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.36409375,"end":138.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.46909375,"end":140.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.13971875000001,"end":142.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.52346875,"end":145.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.74221875,"end":153.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.58971875,"end":154.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.82534375,"end":155.77034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.10784375,"end":157.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.23409375,"end":160.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.57971875,"end":161.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.35596875000002,"end":163.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.00534375,"end":165.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.99659375000002,"end":169.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.10971875,"end":172.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.96596875,"end":173.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.08409375000002,"end":173.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.31596875000002,"end":174.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.94034375,"end":175.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.02471875,"end":176.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.54346875000002,"end":177.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.18034375000002,"end":178.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.32784375,"end":180.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.81284375,"end":184.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.16659375,"end":185.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.21284375000002,"end":186.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.25909375,"end":187.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.20409375,"end":191.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.78159375,"end":192.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.54096875000002,"end":193.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.86971875,"end":195.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.23659375000003,"end":196.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.43909375,"end":196.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.04221875000002,"end":201.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.79284375,"end":205.95659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.15909375,"end":211.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.10346875000002,"end":214.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.06471875000003,"end":217.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.38096875000002,"end":218.59596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.64659375000002,"end":219.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.16534375,"end":220.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.26659375000003,"end":220.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.58284375000002,"end":224.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.89034375000003,"end":227.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.40471875,"end":229.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.32846875,"end":230.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.21846875000003,"end":232.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.43346875,"end":232.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.51346875000002,"end":234.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.09971875000002,"end":235.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.24721875,"end":237.54659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.20471875,"end":239.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.02721875,"end":245.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.41471875000002,"end":244.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.25846875000002,"end":247.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.43534375000002,"end":252.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.49784375000002,"end":253.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.29096875000002,"end":254.91096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.91096875000002,"end":256.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.76721875000004,"end":259.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.40846875,"end":257.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.83034375,"end":265.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.21346875,"end":265.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.50409375000004,"end":272.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.10721875,"end":268.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":272.30909375000005,"end":272.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.66346875,"end":277.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.38846875,"end":280.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.13471875,"end":285.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.57284375,"end":288.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.62721875,"end":297.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.19534375,"end":306.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.04221875,"end":306.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.17284375,"end":307.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.84784375000004,"end":309.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.55659375000005,"end":308.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.06284375,"end":312.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.36596875000004,"end":318.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.40721875,"end":320.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.44096875,"end":320.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.52096875,"end":322.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.78659375,"end":323.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.30534375,"end":324.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.40659375,"end":332.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.64221875000004,"end":328.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.28721875,"end":333.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.94096875,"end":332.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.27409375,"end":336.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.73784375,"end":339.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.48846875000004,"end":353.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.17409375,"end":357.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.88221875000005,"end":358.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":359.40096875,"end":361.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.36284375,"end":362.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.30346875000004,"end":363.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.41284375000004,"end":368.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.91846875000005,"end":369.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":370.75784375,"end":376.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.09909375,"end":374.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.29284375000003,"end":381.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":376.32659375000003,"end":376.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.36784375,"end":389.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.87284375,"end":396.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.41221875,"end":398.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.00659375000004,"end":401.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.70221875000004,"end":413.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.33346875,"end":414.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.41784375000003,"end":414.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.66659375,"end":419.83034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.26909375,"end":421.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.87221875,"end":422.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.88471875000005,"end":424.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.94346875,"end":425.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.14159375,"end":426.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":427.59284375000004,"end":429.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.71909375,"end":430.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.57971875000004,"end":431.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.30534375,"end":431.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.08159375,"end":434.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.71409375,"end":436.70534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.02596875,"end":439.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.57409375000003,"end":440.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.51909375,"end":441.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.75096875,"end":442.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.27409375,"end":444.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.65346875,"end":445.56471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.20596875,"end":449.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.07034375,"end":451.85909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.07846875,"end":455.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.11596875000004,"end":457.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.98471875,"end":462.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.72221875,"end":464.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.35909375000006,"end":467.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":466.38846875,"end":466.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.43909375000004,"end":466.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":466.96221875000003,"end":467.92409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.92409375000005,"end":467.97471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.842,"end":17.436,"text":"主席、財政委員先進、列席領事長、官員、會長、公共夥伴、媒體記者女士先生,有請金管會黃主委、保險局司局長、還有財政部莊部長以及負稅署的宋署長。兩位部長好、署長好、局長好。主委、部長,剛剛聽了吳委員的質詢,我覺得有點失望。"},{"start":29.389,"end":54.268,"text":"擺明了目前三大融資公司他是因為政交法上市貴才得以納入金管會以政交法的方式來監管那剛剛要求的被繼承人他是不是可以查詢繼承人的被繼承人的資產負債的狀況因為目前資產公司融資公司他沒有納管那我們就沒有辦法提供資料給國稅局所以"},{"start":56.246,"end":63.029,"text":"議員提供稅負的資料,現在的經濟部融資公司也是有登記的,重點是要有平台讓稅券單位去處理。市長還在嗎?那你可以來幫忙嗎?這問題很簡單,剛剛又沒有請你上來,你可以幫忙處理?可以嗎?"},{"start":82.958,"end":107.696,"text":"是,委員好,這個,我們目前沒有融資公司這個登記業別是嘛,好啦請回,好啦這一題呢我就很清楚嘛,大家在踢皮球嘛融資公司只有三大,最大的三間是因為政交法上市櫃才被金管會納管資料你可以要求他提供,那就就這三間請金管會跟財政部配合,把這三間他本身他民間的債務的部分,他能夠提供給國稅局,可以嗎?"},{"start":108.663,"end":135.657,"text":"他不是銀行業,他不是你們所有的金融機構,他是上市會公司,可以嗎?這三家就好了,我們要邀請到這三家上市會公司,歸你們管吧?政經局,可不可以?各位要求,張局長。各位要求這三家上市會公司提供,他們資產大部分都在他們身上嘛,可以嗎?請求這三家來。這個三家要看他的性質,如果我們要提供的話,因為所有的上市會公司都要在裡頭。"},{"start":136.651,"end":144.883,"text":"這三家就好了因為他是做融資債權不良債權的收購就這三家主委可以承諾嗎還是你不敢承諾"},{"start":146.792,"end":169.065,"text":"這個因為我們在法規上沒有直接監管,但是我們現在有溝通感到,可以上公費,謝謝。同樣的事情,融資公司它造成的債權,它所取得的債權,它可以跟人家追債,它可以用保單要求強制解約,來取得它的保駕金。主委你知道這個保駕金,這個強制解約的數量暴增,你知道嗎?"},{"start":171.084,"end":196.676,"text":"我的了解有在增加多嗎?增加多少?局長?增加多少?下一頁?是不是這麼多?數量很高啦在你當局長那時候就發生這個事情嗎?為什麼這麼多件?都是因為為了追債要求把這個藥保人他的保單解約取得保駕金為什麼?怎麼造成的?局長請說什麼原因造成的?以前可以嗎?"},{"start":198.109,"end":219.085,"text":"之前比較少,後來那個大法庭有一個解釋。很好,大法庭解釋,我們看一下。111年,大法庭就解釋了,可以合法執行命令,終止債務人為要保人之人所保險契約。請問保險局,為什麼保險契約可以作為債權強制執行的標的?這你應該很熟悉嘛,不是我第一個問的嘛,什麼原因?"},{"start":220.265,"end":220.545,"text":"請問一下國稅局"},{"start":235.128,"end":251.535,"text":"負稅署來莊部長你知不知道你們的負稅署啊有去救人民欠國家的債也去要求去把他保單解約有沒有你知不知道這個情況有在個案上是有是那為什麼你們要針對欠稅的民眾的保單是你強制執行沒有其他方式追稅嗎"},{"start":253.335,"end":264.139,"text":"沒有其他的方式追稅嗎?那當然有,是。沒有其他的方式,組長你說啦。他查完以後沒有其他適合的財產可以...不是沒有其他適合,都脫產了啦!"},{"start":266.556,"end":266.936,"text":"來請問一下局長那個保險局局長"},{"start":295.057,"end":295.318,"text":"保單將強制解約,這會產生什麼問題?"},{"start":307.993,"end":309.194,"text":"這個題目我們另外再討論往下看"},{"start":334.675,"end":358.311,"text":"來主委部長你看看齁債務人就是保險要保人他如果欠款只要去申請法院強制執行合法的終止命令保險公司就終止授權契約然後受益人也喪失了保險金的請求請問主委你知道嗎一般來講我們去把保險保約解約之後我可以取得保駕金跟受益人他受益這個保險的潛在利益成比例嗎你所知道的情況"},{"start":359.568,"end":388.804,"text":"當然不成比例了不成比例嘛叫殺雞取卵嘛債權人拿回一點點債務人為藥保人的保單解約之後他的受益人損失慘重有沒有辦法解決這個部分我的了解我們保險局有委外做研究很好來要求受益人有一些權利介入對的很好來我們往下看其實在上一屆我所尊敬的江永昌委員他就問過了說花錢交保費可能被拿去還債他在2021年的4月10日要求你們研議介入權入法研議進入如何"},{"start":390.919,"end":401.56,"text":"法委員,那個委外的報告現在完成了,我們正在做後續的評估。要不要告訴大家,你們研議的方向大概是怎麼樣?介入權,大陸法院的介入權怎麼樣?"},{"start":402.745,"end":426.599,"text":"就介入權的部分,如果是受益人的部分可以介入,還有一些法制作業要處理,那我們再評估他的這個小分執行效益兩位,一位主委一個部長,我對黃主委也很尊敬,那也是希望說這件事情可不可以在您卸任前,要求保險局趕快提出一個月內提出修法的建議"},{"start":427.828,"end":429.009,"text":"我們朝方向努力謝謝"},{"start":446.258,"end":466.399,"text":"要保人的債務我進行部份的清償以取得不解約的條件保障我受益你的受益權你會就是這樣的概念嗎?是,如果相關的法規修正我們當然要遵循好,謝謝主席、謝謝主委、謝謝部長部長承諾了一個月內喔,局長OK嗎?點頭是表示同意啦,主委同意?可以可以,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151323","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151323","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627ecd07a08b7b71e13cf744a9f110b3b1fc5dab72e655c1c94c4d3c1afc80b58e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:47:16 - 12:58:42","影片長度":"00:11:26","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":686,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:58:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:47:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1017,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時47分）謝謝主席，先請金管會主委。"],["主席：有請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委好，今天委員會的專報，它的命題直接說到我國的融資公司缺乏監管，所以衍生許多社會亂象，影響到我們的金融市場，也影響到我們人民的權益。那事實上，我自己就感同身受很多，為什麼？因為我們作為民意代表，常常就會接到民眾的一個陳情，希望我們幫忙，我們看這個和潤機車的easy貸，那它有什麼問題呢？它還不限你的廠牌、不限你的車齡，只要能夠發動就可以貸到最高65萬元，所以想要請教一下主委，到底什麼機車可以價值65萬元啊？"],["黃主任委員天牧：它這個授信沒有依照信貸Loan To Value去計算，其實我們已經有去做導正了，所以它會重新調整內部融資公司的授信標準。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有導正嘛。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們有要求它去做調整。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：其實我們都知道嘛，它的本意就不在擔保品，它只是想要誘使你去借錢。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，它是用應收帳款收買的方式去處理。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：都是為了誘使你借錢嘛，而且是越多越好，因為它就可以用遠高於銀行的利率，去讓你借錢，可是呢，它的結局就是可能你還不起嘛，你就會扣繳薪資，強制執行啊，然後讓你產生債權之後，這個債權還可以賣來賣去，就衍生很多的亂象。像我們常常看到新聞，像是天道盟，它還可以開資產管理公司，它主打什麼呢？抵押房子就快速放款，可是簽約之後，它霸占你的房子，回租給你，當你繳不出利息租金的時候，就開始使用一些不正當的手法，讓你非常地辛苦。另外一個叫方陣國際資產管理公司，它是專收那些無法處理的呆帳，還有那些債務人的失聯案，結果，哇！它生意很好，吸引很多，為什麼？那些陳年老帳啊，都會來找他們，可是他們的手段是什麼？就是找一些惡煞到你的家咆哮、滯留、按電鈴等等，用精神式的轟炸。我自己作為一個民意代表，不瞞你說，我只不過是一個民意代表，可是我大概一個禮拜也會收到2件，就是簽那些高利貸本票，我能怎麼辦呢？我們還是要接案啊！我能怎麼做？就是用我們的立委影響力，請它高抬貴手，不然我還能怎麼辦呢？所以我在這裡也要特別拜託一下，我們應該要來管一管，大家都說我們必須針對這些融資的公司要有一個融資公司法來管它，可是從2007年送進來已經17年，沒有結論，先請教金管會主委，經濟部次長也一起來，我想聽聽看你們覺得原因是什麼？主委請說。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想因為授信本身並不是銀行的專屬業務，融資公司過去衍生的一些問題，其實在相關的法律都有規範，像消保法基本上也都處理的，所以當時並沒有特別著墨要訂專法。當然，最近這一兩年所呈現一些在行為面所展現大家物議的地方，確實需要去著墨，金管會也採取了一些措施，是不是足夠，或者還是要讓它法制化，這可能跨部會再做一些討論。剛剛委員簡報提到的，有一種是它登記就叫融資公司，有一種是資產管理公司，所以這裡面有機構的管理，也有行為的管理，所以其實滿複雜的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主委，我聽到的重點大概是說反正每一次被講了什麼、質詢了什麼、大家建議什麼，至少都有一點一點的推進。我們再聽聽經濟部次長這邊怎麼看，17年來沒有結論。"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，回應委員剛剛垂詢的問題，第一個，我先講這是我即席的回應，這基本要回歸到民眾有資金的需求，但是他沒有借貸的信用，這是最根本的問題，如果回到銀行體系的話，他的信用不足以支應他資金的需求，這是一個要怎麼解決的問題，納管當然是一個方法，納管可以排除很多的風險，但是也會讓這些民眾資金的需求管道受到限制，這就是為什麼17年來政府一直在兩端擺盪，我們也不希望民眾的資金需求因為政府的管理而把它掐死，但是我們也希望能夠排除這些非法的、地下的、重利罪的、詐欺的，要打擊它。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：經濟部願意來成為主管機關嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：這個要在行政院我們行政團隊內部再討論，經濟部目前被賦予的工作是在消費者保護這部分，不過剛剛已經報告過很多次，行政院已經有個跨部會在討論，第一步是先研讀外國的立法例，第二步我相信要檢討各機關裡面的專業職能及政策工具，我們才有辦法找出一個能夠拿捏在對社會經濟……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這樣看起來還要多久？"],["陳次長正祺：我的層級沒辦法回應這個，但是我們經濟部會努力。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我來回應一下主委跟次長，我們這17年來都可以聽得到兩邊都各執一詞，我們聽到的都是說這個雖然是公司，但是經濟部主張看起來這些行為都是屬於金融的行為。金管會這邊也都會提到其實也不完全是金融，所以也主張應該用公司來看。沒有關係，總而言之，我只想問金管會、經濟部支不支持設立融資公司法？你至少表態嘛！主委，你支不支持？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，早上有其他委員垂詢過，現階段至少我個人立場沒有朝向法律位階去處理，因為要牽涉到整個問題的範圍等等。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：次長，經濟部支不支持？"],["陳次長正祺：經濟部的法定執掌是推廣產業發展，融資公司法我們要評估一下它納管之後會不會影響產業發展和民眾的經濟活動，所以這是一個政策問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我們今天來討論這個，我們的命題是認為我國融資公司缺乏監管，所以衍生社會亂象，影響我們的金融市場，影響我們的人民權益。次長，你是認為納管其實是有壞處的？"],["陳次長正祺：有利有弊。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：弊多還利多？"],["陳次長正祺：這就是政策評估，而且是在立法過程中真的要深入研議。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們看到的就是三不管的結果，其實這個黑暗地帶讓許多人民不聊生、生不如死，很辛苦啊！我們可能無法管到、無法想像到，但是我們要想的是如果你不完全納管，只是將民眾推入法外之地。簡單來講，民眾要的很簡單，他就算信用再不好，政府能不能夠讓他有一個正常的管道、合理的利率、合法的借款、還款，就這樣子而已，民眾要的就是這樣子。我想金融監督管理委員會組織法第一條就有講：「行政院為健全金融機構業務經營，維持金融穩定及促進金融市場發展，特設金融監督管理委員會。」所以我們看到像我們知道的中租、和潤、裕融，最大的這三大租賃公司，它的資產合計1.5兆元，應收帳款是1兆元，它相當於半間的兆豐銀行，結果我們現在用一句話帶過，它不是金融業，我想這是說不過去的，所以我們還是希望請金管會能夠至少提出一個草案，我們希望全面來納管，這樣可以嗎，主委？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想今天也有相關委員的提案，我們再做研究。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：研究很久了啦！我想至少去做一下法案，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實我們內部一直有在研究，還要看行政院最後面的考慮。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以到最後是行政院為健全金融機構業務經營，維持金融穩定及促進金融市場發展，意思是說你們沒有這樣的責任？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這不是金融機構，它不是得到金管會執照的金融機構，這個是融資公司或非融資公司做的某一項業務，這個部分在處理上……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我想這是不負責任的話，我們還是希望真的要去管。","最後一個小小的問題請教財政部，很多人反映親人如果去世可以透過國稅局查他的遺產，但是我們今天談的融資公司的債務你沒管，所以查不到，衍生一旦他沒有拋棄繼承就會受害，剛出生的孩子、未成年的孩子不明就裡，一出生就背負很大的債務，我覺得納不納管修法是其次，至少我們現在可以做的，是不是請財政部、金管會可以讓被繼承人在融資公司的債務狀況，一併納入國稅局的平臺，供遺屬查詢，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分要它們公司的資料是可以提供，就是我們國稅局去查到底有哪些租賃公司，被繼承人在那邊有相關的債務。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我認為這至少可以做到的，兩個禮拜提供我一個回復，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們來研議看看。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝部長、次長、主委，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員質詢。","接著請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-8","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","王世堅","顏寬恒","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","羅明才","林楚茵","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","吳春城","陳亭妃","王定宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就\n「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.35159375000000004,"end":2.5453437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.06846875,"end":3.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.709093750000001,"end":9.177218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.329093750000002,"end":17.294093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.51346875,"end":20.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.719718750000002,"end":25.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.507843750000003,"end":34.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.42221875,"end":40.564718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.93596875,"end":43.416593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.159093750000004,"end":45.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.369718750000004,"end":54.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.705968750000004,"end":57.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.625343750000006,"end":60.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.979093750000004,"end":72.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.76659375,"end":72.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.79596875,"end":74.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.82971875,"end":73.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.57221875,"end":78.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.58409375000001,"end":93.70409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.47409375000001,"end":83.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.19346875000001,"end":122.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.77971875,"end":147.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.80534375000002,"end":174.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.26534375,"end":176.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.15096875,"end":178.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.58534375000002,"end":184.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.50846875000002,"end":189.92534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.38096875000002,"end":216.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.29659375000003,"end":233.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.25596875000002,"end":238.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.47471875000002,"end":240.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.17909375000002,"end":240.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.48284375000003,"end":252.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.81846875000002,"end":255.72096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.02471875000003,"end":256.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.29034375000003,"end":258.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.29846875000004,"end":261.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.23471875,"end":268.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.75284375,"end":271.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.92096875000004,"end":285.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.62784375,"end":293.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":293.87534375,"end":300.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.27096875,"end":300.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.28784375000004,"end":300.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.33846875,"end":300.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.35534375000003,"end":300.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.38909375000003,"end":300.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.52409375,"end":300.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":301.09784375000004,"end":335.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.61159375,"end":336.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.87284375,"end":339.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.03284375000004,"end":349.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":349.32659375000003,"end":367.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.01596875,"end":367.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.08721875000003,"end":370.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.61846875000003,"end":373.66034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.02346875,"end":376.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.00159375000004,"end":377.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.50346875,"end":379.81971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.08971875000003,"end":381.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.91221875,"end":384.00471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.15659375,"end":397.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.43721875,"end":403.41096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.95096875,"end":410.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.86971875,"end":411.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.33784375000005,"end":414.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.66659375,"end":421.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.00721875000005,"end":426.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.95159375000003,"end":434.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.46971875,"end":434.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.62534375,"end":437.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":438.32534375,"end":451.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.31909375000004,"end":459.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.31346875,"end":467.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":468.91971875,"end":469.67909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":469.89846875,"end":469.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.93221875,"end":470.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":470.97846875000005,"end":471.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":472.12596875,"end":476.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.92721875,"end":475.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.12534375,"end":477.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.50909375000003,"end":480.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.01909375,"end":483.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.36471875,"end":487.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.95471875000004,"end":494.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.51909375,"end":498.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.90659375,"end":512.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.28409375,"end":514.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.8703437500001,"end":516.4565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.81096875,"end":518.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.86971875,"end":520.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.0972187500001,"end":524.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.5734687500001,"end":542.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.22034375,"end":551.0672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.80971875,"end":559.3022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.6059687500001,"end":571.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.1272187500001,"end":577.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.0503437500001,"end":583.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.1928437500001,"end":590.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.4028437500001,"end":601.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.9622187500001,"end":612.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.1884687500001,"end":613.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.09971875,"end":655.6584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":614.83784375,"end":615.5634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":655.87784375,"end":662.6953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.9484687500001,"end":664.8215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":665.6653437500001,"end":677.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.9509687500001,"end":674.2547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.80721875,"end":681.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.88221875,"end":685.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.0422187500001,"end":684.4809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":684.73409375,"end":686.26971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.649,"end":25.419,"text":"先請金管會主委主委好今天委員會的專報他的命題就是直接說到我國的融資公司缺乏監管所以呢衍生許多社會亂象影響到我們的金融市場也影響到我們人民的權益"},{"start":26.579,"end":52.858,"text":"那事實上我自己就感同身受很多為什麼因為我們作為民意代表常常就會接到民眾的一個陳情希望我們幫忙像我們看這個齁這是和潤機車的EZ代那他有什麼問題呢他還不限你的廠牌不限你的車輪只要能夠發動就可以呢代到最高65萬"},{"start":54.779,"end":78.052,"text":"所以想要請教一下主委到底什麼機車可以價值65萬他這個授信沒有依照那個信貸Beloved Value去計算其實我們已經有去做導證了所以他會重新調整他的內部的融資公司的這個授信的標準有導證嗎我們有要求他去做調整那其實我們都知道嘛他的本意就不在擔保品"},{"start":78.692,"end":93.368,"text":"他只是想要用使你去借錢對,都是為了用使你借錢嘛而且是越多越好因為他就可以用遠高於銀行的利率去讓你借錢可是呢,他的結局就是"},{"start":94.269,"end":122.11,"text":"可能你還不起嘛你就會扣繳你的薪資強制執行啊然後讓你產生債權之後呢這個債權呢還可以賣來賣去就衍生很多的亂象啊像我們常常看到新聞像這個是天道盟他還可以開資產管理公司他主打什麼呢抵押房子就快速放款可是簽約了之後他霸占你的房子回租給你"},{"start":123.09,"end":146.986,"text":"當你繳不出那些例行租金的時候就開始使用一些不正端的一個手法讓你呢非常的辛苦那像這個另外一個叫方正國際資產管理公司他呢是專收那些無法處理的呆帳還有那些債務人的失聯案結果哇他生意很好吸引很多為什麼那些成年老帳啊"},{"start":147.807,"end":156.693,"text":"我只不過是一個民意代表可是我大概一個禮拜也會收到兩件就是找我就是簽那些高利貸本票那我能怎麼辦呢我們還是要接案啊我只能怎麼做"},{"start":177.327,"end":201.217,"text":"就是用我們的立委影響力請他高抬貴手不然我還能怎麼辦呢所以我在這個地方特別就是也要去拜託一下我們應該要來管一管那大家都說我們必須針對這些融資的公司要有一個融資公司法來管他可是從2007年送進來已經17年"},{"start":204.338,"end":215.748,"text":"沒有結論想請教一下先問一下金管會主委那經濟部次長也一起來我想聽聽看你們覺得原因是什麼主委請說"},{"start":217.318,"end":239.794,"text":"我想因為受信本身並不是銀行的專屬業務那這個融資公司過去大家衍生的一些問題其實在相關的法律中也都有規範消保法也都基本上是處理的所以當時並沒有特別著墨要定專法當然啦最近這一兩年所呈現的一些在這個行為面"},{"start":240.635,"end":240.815,"text":"主委,您"},{"start":269.667,"end":269.727,"text":"市長的評論"},{"start":286.701,"end":306.583,"text":"報告委員回應委員的剛垂詢的問題第一個我先講這是我現在即席的回應這個基本要回歸到民眾有資金的需求但是他沒有借貸的信用這是最根本的問題那麼如果回到銀行體系的話呢他的信用不足以支應他的資金的需求"},{"start":306.903,"end":307.163,"text":"那經濟部可以"},{"start":337.243,"end":364.463,"text":"願意來成為主管機關嗎?經濟部目前這個是要在行政院我們行政團隊內部在討論那麼經濟部目前被賦予的工作是在消費者保護這個部分不過行政院剛剛已經報告過很多次已經有一個跨部會在討論第一步是先研讀外國的立法例第二步我相信要檢討各機關裡面的專業職能還有你的政策工具那我們才有辦法找出一個能夠"},{"start":365.143,"end":365.483,"text":"主席"},{"start":378.567,"end":395.934,"text":"我們這17年來都可以聽得到兩邊都是各執一詞我們聽到的都是說經濟部都會主張雖然這個是公司但是你們主張就是說看起來這些行為都是屬於金融的行為"},{"start":397.535,"end":421.13,"text":"那金管會這邊呢也都會提到說其實也不完全是金融所以呢也主張說應該是用公司來看好沒有關係那總而言之我們要講的就是說我只想問到底金管會經濟部支不支持來設立這個融資公司法你至少表態嘛主委你支不支持"},{"start":422.045,"end":422.526,"text":"市長,經濟部支不支持?"},{"start":438.336,"end":447.202,"text":"所以我們今天來討論這個我們的命題是認為我國融資公司缺乏監管所以衍生社會亂象影響我們的金融市場影響我們的人民權益然後市長您是認為說如果納管其實是有壞處的"},{"start":469.98,"end":487.25,"text":"有利有弊這個就是政策評估而且在立法過程中真的要深入去研究我們這樣子齁我們看到的就是三不管的結果其實這個黑暗地帶讓許多人民不聊生啊生不如死啊"},{"start":487.99,"end":515.817,"text":"很辛苦啊我們可能無法管到無法想像到但是我們要講的就是說如果你不完全納管只是將民眾推入法外之地我簡單來講民眾要的很簡單他就算信用再不好政府能不能夠讓他有一個正常的管道合理的利率合法的借款還款就是這樣子而已民眾要的就是這樣子"},{"start":517.397,"end":542.323,"text":"那我想這個部分我們的這個金融監督管理委員會組織辦法他就有講第一條行政院為了健全金融機構業務經營維持金融的穩定及促進金融市場的發展特色金融監督管理委員會所以我們看到像我們知道的這個中租、合潤、育融"},{"start":543.303,"end":570.851,"text":"最大的這三大的租賃公司他的資產合計是1.5兆欸應收賬款是1兆欸他相當於半間的兆豐銀行欸結果如果我們現在用一句話帶過他不是金融業我想這個是說不過去的所以呢我們還是希望說請金融管會能夠至少來提出一個草案我們希望全面來納管這樣可以嗎主委"},{"start":572.145,"end":582.87,"text":"我想我們今天有相關委員的提案我們在做研究我研究很久了啦我想至少就是去做一下法案好不好"},{"start":584.809,"end":611.175,"text":"其實我跟您報告我們內部有一直有在研究那還要看行政院最後面的考慮所以到最後是行政院為健全金融機構業務經營維持金融穩定及促進金融市場發展所以意思就是說你們沒有這樣的一個責任報告委員這個不是金融機構他不是得到金管會執照的金融機構這個是融資公司或是非融資公司做的某一項的業務"},{"start":612.555,"end":614.777,"text":"請主委留下來就是很多人反應就是親人如果去世他可以透過國稅局去查他的遺產"},{"start":631.733,"end":648.853,"text":"但是呢就是我們今天談的這個融資公司的債務你沒管嘛查不到所以呢會衍生他一旦沒有拋棄繼承就會受害所以那種剛出生的孩子未成年的孩子他不明就李一出生就背負很大的債務所以我覺得"},{"start":649.734,"end":654.037,"text":"這部分要他們公司的資料是可以做提供,就是我們國稅局去查到底有哪一些租賃公司,然後"},{"start":672.844,"end":672.864,"text":"財務部長"}]}},{"id":"151322","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151322","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f0162743287d10086c25d8068d0b55d8f96a4ec5dab72e655c1c947074d07a482e87785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:47:23 - 12:58:01","影片長度":"00:10:38","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":638,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:58:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:47:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":575,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時47分）謝謝。麻煩請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：邱部長，今天非常多委員都很關心我們潛艦國造的部分，其實從馬政府時代開始推動，到蔡英文政府八年的時間，我想朝野一定都支持，希望我們自己的國防要有足夠而且堅強的戰力，我們也認為潛艦國造這個方向是應該要做的；但是本席剛剛聽到計畫等於預算，我覺得很納悶。"],["邱部長國正：報告委員，他們不是講等於，是計畫出來要等著預算，才能處理；不是等於。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以，我才覺得奇怪，剛剛怎麼會突然講到計畫然後等於預算，我想這樣就不對了。"],["邱部長國正：不是，不是。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。本席現在要強調的是，外界有提到2,800億，我不是外交及國防委員會的委員，所以我是看媒體報導，99%的國人當然也是看媒體報導，這2,800億剛剛有很多人在討論，涉及機密的部分你不用回答；但是我要這樣請教，你剛剛一直在說這個有可能是粗估也不一定，現在還在核算，所以也不會講，而且你在上午回答說，2,800除以7的話，這也不公允，對不對？那有可能會比2,800億還要高嗎？如果未來我們要做完七艘，甚至還要增加設備、裝備等等，所以有可能低，也有可能高，是不是？"],["邵參事維揚：報告，是。"],["洪委員孟楷：雖然外界譁然，說這樣平均下來，一艘差不多要400億比原型艦還要貴，但有可能以後真的核算出來，也許原物料上漲，也許有什麼樣的設備要再把它加入，所以之後我們這七艘，如果照賴清德總統當選人說我們要一次做的話，會比2,800億還要高，有可能3,000億以上？"],["邵參事維揚：報告委員，原型艦的成本跟後續艦的成本是會有差異的，差異的部分有各個因素，有增有減，例如原型艦的裝備，所謂的NRE首艦的建造設計費用會拿掉……"],["洪委員孟楷：一次性的費用會拿掉。"],["邵參事維揚：如果構型沒改變，這個費用就不會再列計，廠商若要列計，我們也不會同意；但是物價指數、通膨指數是往上漲的，包含人工的費用也是往上漲的；另外還有一種叫做學習曲線的部分，學習後它會往下掉，所以各種因素在裡面，它會去做一個平衡，我們都有一系列的公式去估算。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啦，你講的是common sense，而這個點一出來，也是國人會譁然、訝異的嘛！照理講，我們希望打造第一個原型艦的時候，它是一個高規格指標，指標訂立之後，大家覺得可以，合格了，未來七艘我們都是以這個指標來當作標準去做，當然國人會想：一開始你把標準做出來，後續的部分，成本應該可以遞減，至少是一樣的、大概的；但你現在講成本反而有可能會高於原型艦？"],["邵參事維揚：我剛剛跟委員報告，它有不同的參數，有的是往上漲，有的是往下……"],["洪委員孟楷：好啦。因為現在的重點在於你現在講的2,800都還不是最終數字，有可能低，也有可能高。","第二個部分，大家都有討論到潛艦召集人黃曙光，其實他在去年9月曾提到，希望潛艦原型艦通過HAT之後，能夠帶著原型艦測試隊伍展開出海測試，即SAT，現在我們的原型艦HAT也還沒有，可是他在這個時候就離開了，請辭了；媒體報導說部長也是之後才知道的消息。"],["邱部長國正：對，因為他之前跟哪個請辭，我不知道，後來我聽說有那麼一件事，今天早上媒體都公告很清楚，連同多少字寫出來，我才知道，好像沒有先知快報這件事。我特別也表達我對他的肯定。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，我有看到您對他的肯定，但不只是本席，我相信國人也好奇，畢竟過去都是黃曙光召集人，他在於潛艦國造這部分付出非常大的心血，而且他也講過希望帶著原型艦能夠SAT，甚至希望能把原型艦交給我們的海軍，讓海軍真的能夠來運作、使用；現在怎麼會一有點將志未捷的感覺？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，大家很關心，如果他離開後，是不是這個工作就停頓了。我特別跟委員報告，這個專案小組同時繼續存在，他在這個推動過程當中，全專案小組都參與……"],["洪委員孟楷：本席當然認同我們國家的重大政策也不能因為任何一個人離開，我們就不做了嘛！所以小組一定存在，專業一定存在，甚至我們希望潛艦國造最基本的功能是什麼？就是把技術留下來！"],["邱部長國正：沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：畢竟各位將領、各位官兵，大家也都會有退休的一天，但至少我們的技術能夠持續延下來，這才是潛艦國造最基本的精神。今天早上行政院長陳建仁居然說打抱不平，對於黃曙光請辭，媒體標題說努力，但受到抹黑、打壓。因為您是國防部長，本席的概念，至少對國防內部的事情，您算是第一個主官，黃曙光不是跟您請辭？"],["邱部長國正：沒有，他沒有跟我請辭。"],["洪委員孟楷：那他有跟陳建仁請辭嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我不知道。"],["洪委員孟楷：那陳建仁怎麼會突然說：他是努力，但受到抹黑、打壓，有嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我實在答不出來，因為我也像局外人一樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，另外一個部分，我覺得您就不應該是局外人了。剛剛有委員也問過，六天前在轉型正義開會的時候，陳建仁院長特別指示國防部應該在一個月內完成籌設軍中轉型正義教育外部專家諮詢小組，他的目的是要國防部對軍事人員養成教育方面應該儘速辦理，這是六天前的新聞，不是昨天的新聞；可是剛剛有委員在質詢您的時候，您也說您不清楚這個事情。"],["邱部長國正：對，因為我們的法律司通常都會去參與，如果有重大事項會跟我回報，但是這……"],["洪委員孟楷：顯然是認為院長的這件事情不夠重大，所以沒有在第一時間跟部長講……"],["邱部長國正：因為他有跟我提過假如要成立，我說好，但是要按照這個規定，找專業人員……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果我們要做，也要有事情做嘛！院長特別指示軍事人員養成教育，我想請教部長，現在我們的養成教育出了什麼問題，要院長以院長的高度，在轉型正義委員會裡面特別指示國防部，特別點名國防部：你們要針對你們的軍事人員養成教育，究竟出了什麼問題？"],["沈司長世偉：我跟委員做一個說明，轉型正義諮詢委員會，相關的部會都要成立，國防部在這個成立的機制上……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是啊，本席看到行政院新聞稿特別指示，特別把國防部給點名出來。"],["沈司長世偉：我們的那個諮詢委員會到現在還沒有成立，院長希望我們在一個月之內，要把相關的諮詢委員等等找齊，我們國防部會……"],["洪委員孟楷：你還是沒有回答到本席的問題，我成立一個單位，一定是因為現在有什麼樣的問題，我需要去做處理跟解決，我成立潛艦國造小組，是因為我們現在沒有潛艦國造的能力，而且我們認為我們的國防必須要有不對稱的作戰，所以我們成立潛艦國造！一樣的，我們現在軍事人員的教育養成到底有什麼問題，需要我們再成立一個小組？這個小組成立之後，要人、要錢、要預算、要目標、要計劃，他們要做什麼？"],["沈司長世偉：我跟委員報告，是大院通過的那個轉型正義條例裡面，有一些部會就這個部分要做推動，國防部有被規劃，所以我們要成立一個諮詢小組，就是未來的推動，可能要去諮詢一些外部專家委員的意見，因為我們的諮詢小組還沒有成立，院裡面希望我們就這個部分能在一個月之內有一個進度。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以現在還有多少個部會沒有成立？"],["沈司長世偉：那天是在一個與教育相關的分工裡面……"],["洪委員孟楷：那天主要是文化部來報告嗎？"],["沈司長世偉：有好幾個部會去報告。我們在這個部分會照著院裡面的指示，去找一些專家學者，把這個諮詢小組成立起來。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席剛剛聽到部長的答詢，本席也在這裡要求不要假轉型正義之名，行政治意識灌輸之實！本席講得很含蓄！本席希望國防部是中華民國的國防部，國防部是捍衛臺灣2,350萬人的國防部，絕對不是任何一個政黨，或是任何一個政府的國防部，請不要假藉轉型正義之名，行政治意識灌輸之實。我想這一點是本席給國防部所有將官弟兄們由衷的忠告。我再次強調，每一次我都會別著中華民國國旗在左胸，就是因為我認為我們的國防很重要，我們的外交很重要，如果任何人只是做政治意識型態的這種操作或攻防，很抱歉，我們絕對不會客氣，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員不在。","請羅智強委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-13","speakers":["馬文君","林楚茵","黃仁","陳永康","羅美玲","王定宇","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","李柏毅","洪孟楷","羅智強","林憶君","王鴻薇","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢（含秘密會議）","agenda_id":"1133001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.18284375000000003,"end":1.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.8534687500000002,"end":2.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.746593750000002,"end":21.293468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.73221875,"end":35.384093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.95784375,"end":37.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.10534375,"end":40.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.80971875,"end":39.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.06284375,"end":39.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.80534375,"end":40.244093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.665968750000005,"end":43.517843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.12159375,"end":41.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.572843750000004,"end":43.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.53471875,"end":43.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.63596875,"end":43.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.65284375,"end":45.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.445968750000006,"end":95.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.23846875,"end":50.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.07784375,"end":51.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.40034375,"end":93.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.17221875,"end":96.65721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.06659375000001,"end":96.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.61909375,"end":98.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.39534375000001,"end":108.09846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.84096875,"end":124.31534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.51784375000001,"end":124.99034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.56846875000001,"end":124.90596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.69909375,"end":126.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.79159375,"end":129.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.10346875000002,"end":139.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.46596875,"end":132.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.70534375,"end":146.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.69159375,"end":147.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.21471875,"end":147.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.24846875,"end":147.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.77159375000002,"end":149.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.07096875000002,"end":156.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.44221875000002,"end":149.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.10346875000002,"end":171.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.03784375,"end":177.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.87659375,"end":210.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.29846875,"end":178.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.68221875,"end":179.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.37784375,"end":211.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.01909375000002,"end":211.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.03596875000002,"end":211.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.13721875000002,"end":211.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.59284375000001,"end":217.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.71096875,"end":212.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.81159375000001,"end":223.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.55346875,"end":220.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.87346875,"end":234.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.23471875,"end":245.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.03471875000002,"end":248.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.78534375,"end":249.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.30409375000002,"end":251.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.49784375000002,"end":253.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.34159375000002,"end":254.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.59034375000002,"end":259.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.15909375,"end":261.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.60596875000005,"end":273.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.47346875,"end":283.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.28659375,"end":292.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.60971875,"end":304.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.96221875000003,"end":308.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.09659375,"end":324.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.72721875,"end":356.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":324.73971875,"end":325.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":328.65471875000003,"end":330.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.56909375000004,"end":337.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.69409375000004,"end":346.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.73471875,"end":359.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.13909375000003,"end":361.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.62409375000004,"end":363.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.61971875,"end":371.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.00659375000004,"end":373.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":374.60534375000003,"end":377.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.53346875,"end":378.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":378.89159375,"end":379.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.87034375,"end":384.00471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":384.25784375,"end":390.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.78096875,"end":385.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.13534375,"end":385.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.31596875,"end":390.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":390.51846875,"end":390.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.55221875,"end":394.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.27721875000003,"end":411.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.48971875,"end":413.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.05909375000005,"end":416.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.88971875000004,"end":418.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.39596875,"end":422.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.15471875000003,"end":424.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.26409375000003,"end":428.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":426.86721875,"end":426.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.74034375,"end":433.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":433.19534375,"end":442.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.36346875000004,"end":437.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.12221875,"end":442.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.71284375000005,"end":448.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":446.18909375000004,"end":446.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":446.30721875,"end":452.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.54284375000003,"end":451.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.06159375000004,"end":452.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.23034375000003,"end":456.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.69784375,"end":458.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.64284375000005,"end":465.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.79784375,"end":472.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.12159375000005,"end":475.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.49659375000005,"end":477.23909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.45846875,"end":480.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.29784375,"end":479.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.46221875000003,"end":489.05159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.74784375,"end":494.89034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.27034375000005,"end":495.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.05909375000005,"end":496.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.61596875000004,"end":507.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.07409375000003,"end":523.9153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.97159375,"end":515.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":524.3372187500001,"end":536.4197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.62221875,"end":537.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.49971875,"end":563.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.1115937500001,"end":566.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.2165937500001,"end":571.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.52846875,"end":570.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.7434687500001,"end":573.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.34221875,"end":576.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.0803437500001,"end":575.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.3459687500001,"end":582.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":576.41346875,"end":576.9028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.8303437500001,"end":581.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":582.6740937500001,"end":587.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":587.1459687500001,"end":588.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":588.7153437500001,"end":590.6728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.8415937500001,"end":594.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.85784375,"end":602.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":602.7890937500001,"end":636.89346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.242,"end":0.766,"text":"邱國正報告"},{"start":10.845,"end":35.136,"text":"黃委員好好 朱部長我想今天非常多委員都關心我們潛艦國造的部分其實從馬政府時代開始推動到蔡英文政府8年的時間我想朝野一定都共同支持我們希望我們自己的國防要有足夠的一個堅強的戰力我們也認為是說潛艦國造這個方向是應該要做但是剛剛本時有聽到一個說計劃等於預算"},{"start":35.896,"end":37.476,"text":"我不是外交國防委員會委員所以說我也當然是看媒體報導但是"},{"start":63.241,"end":86.196,"text":"國人95% 99%的國人都是看媒體報導2800億剛剛很多人在討論涉及機密的部分你不用回答但是我現在請教所以你剛剛一直在講是說有可能這個是初估也不一定現在還在核算所以也不會講而且你有上午的回答講說2800除以7的話這也不公允對不對好那有可能會比2800億還要高嗎"},{"start":88.337,"end":107.302,"text":"如果說未來我們要做完7艘那甚至還有說增加設備裝備等等所以有可能低也有可能高是不是報告4所以說2800雖然講是說外界華蘭是說怎麼這樣平均下來一艘差不多400億那可能會覺得是說還比原型艦還要貴"},{"start":109.199,"end":109.359,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":127.873,"end":156.225,"text":"原型艦的成本跟後續艦的成本是會有差異的那差異的部分其實各個因素有增有減例如原型艦的裝備所謂的NRE就是首艦的設計費用他就是會拿掉的就一次性的費用拿掉嘛他會拿掉但是如果構型沒改變這個費用我們就不會再劣跡廠商要劣跡我們也不會同意他"},{"start":157.225,"end":177.575,"text":"但是物價的指數上面通膨指數上面他是往上漲的那也包含了人工的費用也是往上漲的但是另外還有一種叫做學習曲線的部分他是學習後他會往下掉的所以各種因素在裡面他會去做一個平衡我們都有一系列的公式去估算"},{"start":177.915,"end":205.187,"text":"是啦 你講的是common sense所以說這一點也是國人一出來之後會划然或是會覺得訝異嘛就照理講我們希望是說打造第一個原型艦的時候它可能它是一個高規格指標指標定力大家覺得說可以合格了未來七艘我們都是以這個指標來當作是一個標準來去做那當然國人會想是說你一開始你把標準做出來後續的部分應該是成本可以遞減或說至少成本是一樣的"},{"start":206.047,"end":223.563,"text":"大概的但你現在講是說成本反而有可能會高於原型艦我剛剛跟委員報告不同的參數他有的是往上漲有的是往下漲可是因為現在重點在於是你現在講2800都還不是一個最終所以有可能低但是也有可能高"},{"start":225.712,"end":251.584,"text":"再來第二個部分大家也都有討論到潛艦召集人這個黃曙光他其實在去年9月的時候他有提到他說希望潛艦原型艦能通過HAT之後他也希望能夠帶著原型艦測試隊伍展開出海測試也就是SAT那現在我們的原型艦HAT也還沒有SAT可是他這個時候他就離開了請辭了"},{"start":254.665,"end":261.066,"text":"而且部長好像看媒體報導講說部長還是你之後才知道的消息對 因為他之前"},{"start":262.602,"end":270.968,"text":"是,我有看到您對他的肯定,但我只是本席我相信國人也好奇就是說因為畢竟過去都是黃曙光召集了他一個等於是說他對於潛艦國在那邊付出非常大的心血嘛"},{"start":293.343,"end":307.903,"text":"但是他也講過他希望是帶著原型艦能夠SAT甚至他也希望是說能夠把原型艦交給我們的海軍讓海軍真的能夠來做運作來做使用但是怎麼有點這個降至未竭的感覺"},{"start":309.51,"end":334.5,"text":"我跟委員報告大家很關心假如他一離開以後是這個工作就停頓了我特別跟委員報告因為專案小組同時俱存的他在這個推動工作當中是全專案小組人都參與本席當然認同我們國家的重大政策也不能因為任何一個人離開我們就不做了嘛所以小組一定存在專業一定存在甚至我們希望潛艦國造最基本的功能是什麼"},{"start":335.18,"end":358.513,"text":"就是把技術留下來啊就是當有一天各位將領各位官兵大家也都會退休的一天的時候但至少我們的技術持續延長這才是潛艦國造最基本的精神嘛那今天早上行政院長陳建仁他居然說打抱不平啊他說這個黃曙光請辭他陳建仁媒體標題是說努力但受到抹黑打壓"},{"start":361.21,"end":377.825,"text":"那請教部長因為您是國防部長本席的概念是你至少國防內部的事情您算是第一個主管 主官嘛黃曙光請辭不是跟您請辭沒有 他沒有跟我請辭那他有跟陳建仁請辭嗎"},{"start":378.979,"end":381.001,"text":"另外一個部份我覺得您就不應該是局外人了"},{"start":395.673,"end":415.723,"text":"6天前剛我們有委員有問過6天前在轉型正義的開會的時候陳建仁院長特別指示國防部應該在一個月內完成籌設軍中轉型正義教育外部專家諮詢小組那他的目的是什麼他的目的是說"},{"start":417.932,"end":432.96,"text":"要國防部對軍事人員養成教育方面應該盡速辦理這是六天前的新聞這不是昨天的新聞可是剛剛部長有委員質詢您的時候你也說你不清楚這個事情"},{"start":433.44,"end":456.401,"text":"因為他參與我們法律師通常都會與他們去但他有重大會跟我回報但這你家還在很顯然認為說院長這個是不夠重大所以沒有第一時間跟部長講要成立我也好但按照這個規定要做好專業人員要做也要有事情做"},{"start":457.728,"end":464.618,"text":"那院長特別指示說軍事人員養成教育那我想請教現在我們養成教育出了什麼問題"},{"start":465.854,"end":466.334,"text":"國防部部長"},{"start":488.831,"end":489.931,"text":"你還是沒有回答到本席的問題嘛"},{"start":510.057,"end":522.834,"text":"我成立一個單位我一定是因為現在有什麼樣的問題我需要來去做處理跟解決嘛我成立潛艦國造小組是因為我們現在沒有潛艦國造的能力而且我們認為說我們的國防必須要有不對稱的作戰所以我們成立潛艦國造"},{"start":524.36,"end":524.46,"text":"國防部有備規劃"},{"start":546.63,"end":547.971,"text":"所以現在還有多少個部會沒有成立?"},{"start":567.284,"end":593.393,"text":"那天是在一個教育的相關的分工裏面那天是文化部主要來報告嗎有好幾個部會去報告是我們這個部分是我們會照院裏面的指示去找一些專家學者把這個資訊小組把它成立起來本席剛剛有聽到部長的一個答詢本席也是要求就是說不要假轉型正義之名行政治意識灌輸之實"},{"start":595.053,"end":621.442,"text":"本席講得很含蓄但是本席希望國防部是中華民國的國防部國防部是捍衛台灣2350萬人的國防部絕對不是任何一個政黨或是任何一個政府的國防部也因此不要假借轉型正義之名行政治意識灌輸之時我想這一點是本席給國防部所有的將官弟兄們由衷的忠告"},{"start":622.022,"end":637.824,"text":"謝偉"}]}},{"id":"151321","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151321","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627afd6895add478e460915613d02a5e1dcc5dab72e655c1c94efa65027115c847b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"12:45:55 - 12:51:59","影片長度":"00:06:04","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（4月17日及18日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":364,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:51:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:45:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":912,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（12時45分）謝謝主席，有請潘部長。"],["主席：請部長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：委員午安。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長午安，你作為執政者，我想要請教一下，你認為政策的擬定有三大考量要素的話會是哪三個部分？"],["潘部長文忠：我想目標是很重要的，就是為了做什麼，還是要解決什麼問題。第二個是政策的可行性，再來一個當然就是必要的資源跟配套，它才可能到位。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我這邊認為是民意、專業跟價值。在座的各位都是教育界的前輩，但是我們今天身為民意代表，我們也想要反映一些在教育現場上的意見。我想請教一下部長，108課綱上路至今，我們可以看到其實有很多家長、學生、老師對於這個學習歷程紀錄都很有意見，我想要請問，這個學習歷程紀錄上路好幾年來，不曉得部長有沒有做過校方、教師方或學生方，這幾個方面的滿意度調查或是檢討報告？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，應該不是用滿意度調查，但是有做資料、訊息的蒐集，其實歷程檔案也有過幾波的檢討、修正。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，我上次問，其實是沒有針對滿意度做一個調查，所以為此我特別幫教育部做了一份算是非正式的問卷，但是是針對我們基層的意見去問他們的想法，所有的樣本都是高中生，我們問他們，你認為完成學習歷程的困難度是普通還是簡單？有16%認為是普通，可是有84%認為很困難，沒有任何人覺得簡單。再來，學習歷程對他的幫助程度，如果用0到5分的話，他們平均只給了1.2分，有四成的同學給出1或0分。再來，學習歷程對你的痛苦程度這題卻高達了4.45分，有七成五的同學給出4分或者是5分，我想這是非常現實的一個反映。另外還有78.3%的學生支持廢除學習歷程紀錄，所以我想這個是我想要帶給部長的，當然你在教育上面可能是專業的，可是我也要將民意充分地反映給你。接下來，有不少的學生也反映準備時間不夠，總是因為學習歷程檔案壓力很大、身心俱疲，準備時間不夠，平常就要應付各種考試。另外，也有80%的學生認為這個學習歷程的檔案沒有成為他們錄取理想科系的最大助力，也不曉得大學端想要看什麼。有60%的學生認為志向未定，難以規劃檔案、上傳期限短、內容匆忙難產，校方和個人資源不足，也擔心讓內容遜色。部長，這裡面還有一個，我就不問了，我本來是想問你，你知道有多少比例的學生1天睡不到8小時嗎？經過調查有93%，甚至也有兒盟發展組織調查學生首要的壓力來源是什麼？結果有76.1%認為是學習歷程紀錄，到了2022年的時候，更有92.3%的高中實施學習歷程檔案遭遇到困難，有144所的高中反映學生壓力過大。","當然政府的立意良善，希望我們的學生探索自己的興趣，但是現在的狀況看起來，學習歷程檔案變成一個升學的工具，也造成了補習班用這個來當賣點，老師幫忙做科展，怕教出來的學習歷程紀錄不好看被笑，高中生一整個學期有無數份的期中、期末報告，這些都是新聞有報導的。另外，也有統計指出，有54.7%的教授最看重的是在校成績跟基礎學科能力，足足是高中學習歷程反思的2倍，甚至Google一查就發現也有人在幫忙代寫，這些部長知不知道？連專門在幫忙代寫的這些狀況都有，我當然知道你有呼籲過抓到就取消資格，但是看起來它還是盛行的產業，所以代表沒有解決這個痛苦的問題。網路上甚至有10萬到20萬的代寫費用，我想這已經造成了學生很大的痛苦，而且也沒有達到真正的意義，所以我想要請問部長這個部分是不是可以好好地做檢討？因為基本上從我們這個調查看起來，學習歷程紀錄算是一個搞到天怒人怨，大家也都壓力很大的部分，所以想要請問部長可不可以回去研議廢除學習歷程紀錄，或者是研擬替代方案或是修正的方法？可以提供給本席嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，學習歷程的檔案其實在更早之前，現在學生只要參加推甄，還是有一個叫做備審的資料，如果真的要作為升學用，其實是一樣的，是有這個東西啦。至於剛才委員提到的，這個過程我們也不斷在做簡化，學生也有很多參考。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，部長……"],["潘部長文忠：委員提到的是不是再做一個研議、檢討，能夠讓它更好，讓學生真正扣合到他的學習，我們再來做努力。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，所以部長你剛剛提到，就是這個備審等於是加倍的壓力啊！你覺得多了管道，可是事實上你是多了一個管道的壓力來源，這個部分真的已經有太多人反映，我知道時間也到了，但是這個部分真的要請部長好好回去思考、研議，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員，也謝謝部長。","楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員。","鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員。","王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員。","陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員。","蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員。","游顥委員、游顥委員、游顥委員。","好，今天登記質詢的委員都已經發言完畢，另外有莊瑞雄、劉建國、牛煦庭、王鴻薇跟陳冠廷委員提出書面質詢。關於今天的會議我們作以下決定：答詢完畢，委員所提的書面質詢或是相關的資料，我們都列入紀錄並且刊登公報。對於委員質詢時所要求提供的相關資料，或是未及答復的部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-8","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","吳春城","范雲","張嘉郡","羅智強","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","廖偉翔","莊瑞雄","劉建國","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.00909375,"end":6.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.84846875,"end":7.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.30784375,"end":23.504093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.246593750000002,"end":31.637843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.637843750000002,"end":31.840343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.772843750000003,"end":35.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.94534375,"end":35.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.04221875,"end":71.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.56409375,"end":82.12784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.56659375000001,"end":94.54784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.03721875000001,"end":95.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.74596875,"end":110.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.64659375000001,"end":111.64221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.82346875,"end":123.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.80909375,"end":126.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.80846875,"end":143.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.19846875000002,"end":165.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.48596875,"end":172.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.40909375,"end":179.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.22221875000002,"end":190.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.64659375000002,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.38909375,"end":213.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.98909375000002,"end":224.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.83534375000002,"end":237.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.00221875000003,"end":263.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.92221875,"end":267.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.30971875,"end":269.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.96346875,"end":276.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.35909375,"end":279.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.03784375000004,"end":295.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.06909375000004,"end":305.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.58659375,"end":315.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.49659375000005,"end":322.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.29284375000003,"end":323.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.23346875000004,"end":344.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.48346875000004,"end":351.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.19534375,"end":353.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.66346875000005,"end":358.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.02971875000003,"end":360.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.32909375,"end":361.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.50596875,"end":364.44659375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.177,"end":23.286,"text":"謝謝主席 有請我們潘部長是 部長 謝謝委員午安部長午安 這個部長我想如果你作為執政者我想要請教一下你覺得政策的擬定有一些有三大的考量要素的話你會認為是哪三個部分"},{"start":24.796,"end":35.537,"text":"我想目標是要很重要就是為了要做什麼還是要解決什麼問題第二個是政策的可行性當然再來一個就是必要的資源跟配套他才可能到位"},{"start":36.104,"end":55.163,"text":"好那我這邊我想要反映的是我這邊想的是民意專業跟價值嘛對不對所以我想在座各位都是教育界的前輩但是我們今天身為民意代表我們也想要反映一些在教育現場上的意見彙整喔我想請教一下部長在關於108課綱上路至今喔我們可以看到"},{"start":55.603,"end":81.692,"text":"其實有很多家長學生老師對於這個學習歷程紀錄都很有意見我想要請問這幾年以來這個學習歷程紀錄上任了好幾年以來不曉得部長有沒有做過校方教師方或學生方這幾個方面的滿意度調查的或是檢討報告應該不是用滿意度調查但是有做資料的信息的收集就是說他們反映其實學習歷程檔案也有過幾波的檢討修正"},{"start":82.902,"end":101.789,"text":"對,所以我上次問其實是沒有針對這個所謂的滿意度做一個調查所以為此我有特別幫這個教育部做了一份算是非正式的問卷但是是針對我們基層的意見去問他們的想法那所有的樣本都是高中生所以在反應的部分我們問他們說你認為完成學期歷程的困難普通還是簡單有16%認為是普通可是84%認為很困難沒有任何人覺得簡單那再來"},{"start":112.984,"end":126.547,"text":"對於學習歷程對他的幫助程度如果用0到5分的話平均他們只給了1.2分那4成的同學給出1分或0分那再來學習歷程對你的痛苦程度"},{"start":128.067,"end":136.534,"text":"卻高達了4.45分有7乘5的同學給出4分或者是5分那我想這是非常現實的一個反應的狀況另外還有78.3%的學生是支持廢除這個學習歷程記錄"},{"start":143.34,"end":165.288,"text":"所以我想這個是我想要帶給部長的當然你在教育上面可能有所謂的專業可是我們在民意上面也要充分的反映給你喔所以有接下來有不少的學生也反映說準備時間不夠然後總是因為學習歷程檔案壓力很大身心俱疲喔那還有這個準備時間不夠平常就要應付各種考試"},{"start":166.668,"end":188.348,"text":"另外有80%的學生認為學習歷程的檔案沒有成為他們錄取理想科系的最大助力所以也不曉得說大學端想要看什麼那有60%的認為志向未定難以規劃檔案上傳期限短內容充滿難產校方和個人資源不足也擔心讓內容遜色"},{"start":191.687,"end":210.415,"text":"那部長這裡面還有一個我就不問了我本來是想問你你知道有幾%的學生一天睡不到8小時嗎?經過調查有93%那甚至也有這個兒萌的調查就是兒萌發展組織的調查說學生首要的壓力來源是什麼?結果有76.1%認為是學習歷程記錄"},{"start":214.537,"end":224.668,"text":"所以到了2022年的時候更有92.3%的高中實施檔案歷程遭遇到困難那144所的高中反映學生壓力過大"},{"start":225.882,"end":249.437,"text":"那我想這個當然政府的利益良善是希望我們的學生探索自己的興趣但是在現在的狀況看起來就是學習歷程檔案變成一個升學的工具之外造成了補習班也用這個來當賣點那老師幫忙做科展或甚至怕教出來的學生的歷程記錄不好看被笑那高中生一直有的學期有無數份的期中期末報告"},{"start":250.377,"end":279.043,"text":"這些都是在新聞有報導的甚至有統計指出有54.7%的教授最看重的是在校成績跟基礎學科能力足足是高中學習歷程的反思的兩倍那甚至Google一查就發現有人在幫忙代寫我想這些部長知不知道專門在幫忙代寫的這些狀況都有那我當然知道你也有呼籲過說抓到就取消資格但是看起來他還是盛行的產業所以代表是沒有解決"},{"start":280.165,"end":280.525,"text":"請教育部長潘文忠列席"},{"start":305.689,"end":322.87,"text":"所以想要請問部長可不可以回去研議．廢除學習歷程記錄．或者是研擬替代方案．或是怎麼樣修正的方法．可以給本席嗎?我跟你們報告因為學習歷程檔案其實我更早前面．現在學生只要參加推爭．還是有一個叫做備審的資料"},{"start":324.232,"end":324.332,"text":"主席"},{"start":344.551,"end":344.571,"text":"謝謝委員,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151314","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151314","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f0162766dc4887d3ffcb92b57f63d1b53b7532c5dab72e655c1c9431c2673164c3cee95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"12:38:40 - 12:48:39","影片長度":"00:09:59","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-12"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":599,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:48:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:38:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.570343750000001,"end":6.308468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.66284375,"end":7.472843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.235968750000001,"end":12.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.974093750000002,"end":12.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.99096875,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.024718750000002,"end":13.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.09221875,"end":13.227218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.227218750000002,"end":18.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.21784375,"end":24.398468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.53346875,"end":30.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.50346875,"end":27.891593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.28346875,"end":50.352218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.305968750000005,"end":49.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.094718750000006,"end":62.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.953468750000006,"end":64.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.76346875,"end":66.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.26534375,"end":67.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.50971875,"end":68.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.56034375,"end":70.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.63159375000001,"end":72.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.30221875000001,"end":74.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.60159375,"end":75.79971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.33971875,"end":77.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.16221875000001,"end":79.42784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.44034375000001,"end":80.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.58784375,"end":82.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.54534375,"end":85.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.97534375000001,"end":86.98784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.37596875,"end":90.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.12221875,"end":96.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.11284375000001,"end":97.50096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.68659375,"end":99.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.96471875,"end":101.75346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.61409375000001,"end":105.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.46159375,"end":107.69346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.11534375000001,"end":108.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.97159375000001,"end":113.53221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.43096875,"end":115.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.99596875,"end":123.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.90284375,"end":118.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.06221875000001,"end":128.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.28159375000001,"end":124.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.22596875000002,"end":132.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.86659375000002,"end":134.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.96346875,"end":136.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.81971875000002,"end":145.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.27909375000002,"end":142.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.35471875000002,"end":142.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.37534375,"end":145.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.06721875,"end":163.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.54346875000002,"end":151.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.89596875,"end":162.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.54971875,"end":167.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.66721875000002,"end":168.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.84846875000002,"end":170.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.10971875,"end":176.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.19346875000002,"end":191.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.68471875,"end":194.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.53221875,"end":196.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.45596875,"end":197.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.16034375,"end":201.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.97409375,"end":203.99909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.28596875000002,"end":205.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.15909375,"end":210.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.12034375000002,"end":212.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.26784375000003,"end":217.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.48284375,"end":214.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.85346875000002,"end":220.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.18221875,"end":221.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.20721875,"end":225.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.36284375000002,"end":225.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.80159375000002,"end":225.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.90284375000002,"end":229.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.62846875000002,"end":226.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.84784375,"end":227.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.24409375000002,"end":230.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.86409375000002,"end":231.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.72471875000002,"end":232.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.75409375,"end":233.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.90159375000002,"end":236.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.88846875000002,"end":238.39034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.93034375000002,"end":240.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.88784375,"end":243.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.84096875,"end":244.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.27534375000002,"end":251.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.41409375,"end":248.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.86096875,"end":270.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.30159375,"end":266.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.56659375000004,"end":281.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.49034375,"end":273.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.52409375,"end":273.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.05534375,"end":276.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.48971875,"end":277.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.61971875,"end":286.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.90596875,"end":288.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.98159375,"end":294.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.71909375,"end":299.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.77721875000003,"end":302.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.93721875,"end":310.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.58159375,"end":310.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.66596875000005,"end":310.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.71659375,"end":310.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.73346875000004,"end":310.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.83471875000004,"end":310.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.85159375,"end":310.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.49284375,"end":314.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.20534375,"end":315.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.09534375000004,"end":317.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.22596875,"end":321.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.29721875,"end":321.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.90471875000003,"end":328.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.11034375,"end":332.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.77221875000004,"end":337.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.30721875,"end":339.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.36596875000004,"end":342.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.91409375,"end":344.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.54659375,"end":347.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.36471875,"end":349.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.96346875,"end":351.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.68909375000004,"end":352.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.59596875,"end":357.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.86534375,"end":360.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.25721875000005,"end":362.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.53534375000004,"end":365.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.15096875,"end":366.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.99471875,"end":384.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.61221875,"end":388.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.14784375000005,"end":386.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.74659375000005,"end":389.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.30346875000004,"end":389.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.64096875,"end":392.86409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.88096875,"end":392.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.89784375000005,"end":393.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.87659375000004,"end":395.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.51784375,"end":402.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.43221875,"end":403.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.00596875,"end":408.01784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.16971875,"end":408.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.97971875,"end":410.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.54909375000005,"end":412.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.29971875,"end":414.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.91971875,"end":418.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.30721875,"end":420.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.94409375000004,"end":424.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.80846875000003,"end":425.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.80409375000005,"end":428.47034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.55471875,"end":429.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.22534375000004,"end":432.48659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.13659375000003,"end":431.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.08159375,"end":432.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.80721875,"end":437.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.10596875000005,"end":439.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.72596875000005,"end":441.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.37534375,"end":461.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.35534375000003,"end":467.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.53596875000005,"end":471.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.51846875,"end":475.09596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.65346875000006,"end":471.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.22659375,"end":480.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.31034375,"end":480.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.37784375,"end":480.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.05284375,"end":490.21596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.49971875000006,"end":484.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.21596875000006,"end":490.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.24971875000006,"end":490.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.50284375,"end":497.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.79784375,"end":493.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.98284375000003,"end":498.26534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.48471875,"end":505.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.14596875,"end":519.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":520.6584687500001,"end":535.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.70346875,"end":531.8972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.7490937499999,"end":537.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":535.89659375,"end":560.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.33096875,"end":537.8203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":560.38221875,"end":570.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.3090937500001,"end":569.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.4440937500001,"end":569.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.65471875,"end":590.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.37346875,"end":595.7859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.0222187500001,"end":596.8659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.3047187500001,"end":598.9753437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.754,"end":28.647,"text":"謝謝主席。主席請一下薛部長。好,請薛部長。好,楊委員好。部長好。部長,我們在減塑政策下呢,就是雖然使用量加降了,但是我這邊在看就是塑膠袋的內銷量其實是增加的。根據"},{"start":31.88,"end":42.223,"text":"議員提供的資料是這樣子就是我們從20年前開始執行減塑的政策從2002年的200億個塑膠袋大概減到2022就是20年裡面我們減了一半"},{"start":51.215,"end":60.697,"text":"剪輔一半這個算是一個很好的現象可是呢經濟部的統計卻是這樣子就是說他說台灣的塑膠袋的內銷量在2022是14萬噸到了2023卻提升到20萬噸也就是說垃圾袋的個數減了50%那"},{"start":81.958,"end":108.535,"text":"經濟部的統計塑膠袋的內銷量的重量卻是增加了這個到底問題在哪裡?事實上因為包括我們這個包裝的使用以及在疫情期間大家這個透過外賣啦透過電商等等的各式各樣的活動"},{"start":110.511,"end":132.036,"text":"我們在塑膠的使用量反而增加可是這個在理論上個數也會增加可是我們的個數在20年裡面是減掉50%的是一個很好的成績而重量上我不知道到底問題相關聯性是怎麼樣最主要是我們的塑膠量的使用"},{"start":135.975,"end":162.956,"text":"對剛剛講的楊文講從200個到100個所以是92億那個是購物用的塑膠袋但是我們現在經濟部提供的數據是我們整個國內塑膠的使用量真的是太多了包括我們說海洋的廢棄物裡面的儀網等等這些事實上有都是鈕都是塑膠"},{"start":164.137,"end":190.691,"text":"當然塑膠是台灣很重要的一個產業我們過去經濟的整個發展事實上這個塑膠產業、化工產業也貢獻很大那我大概知道那就是請部裡面這邊除了塑膠袋的部分以外可以檢塑的方面向很多大概都必須要去做"},{"start":191.311,"end":204.92,"text":"事實上今年就是聯合國他們要推動全球的一個檢塑工業的這個擬定而且要實施"},{"start":206.221,"end":221.161,"text":"那等他這個草案能夠確定之後我想全世界將來就會風起雲湧跟我們在談減碳的概念幾乎一樣因為現在塑膠各位我們千萬不要輕忽就是說事實上現在塑膠為例"},{"start":222.982,"end":245.592,"text":"對環境、對我們人體的健康造成很大的影響了那很多人或許都還不了解這個塑膠圍裏它真的會跟我們人體的健康生活息息相關所以我個人的感覺是減碳正在推那下一個階段應該是減塑會如火如荼的來推動"},{"start":246.232,"end":269.424,"text":"因為它的塑膠為例真的對環境、對我們的健康產生太大的影響對,這也就是其實我們光是從可能部長剛剛講的概念也漸漸的讓國人接受了所以我們才能夠在20年裡面塑膠袋的就是家戶的使用、個人的使用的部分檢討的成績其實算是不錯"},{"start":271.616,"end":298.834,"text":"部長我還有一點時間我們還是要來談一下澎湖的垃圾因為澎湖的垃圾呢佔質量居高不下所以縣長都跑到垃圾場去過了一夜這個是一件很對澎湖來講是一件很嚴肅然後也很重要的事情"},{"start":300.879,"end":304.68,"text":"市長大概是這樣子齁 紅樓垃圾掩埋場2022年的佔滯量是9800噸到2024就是今年的4月還"},{"start":317.31,"end":325.632,"text":"還有9300噸的廢棄物佔滯在那邊也就是說在這一兩年裡面其實就是佔滯的噸數大概只減了500噸那我這邊有一個數據就是澎湖縣2022年垃圾轉運回台的數量是18000噸"},{"start":345.575,"end":361.171,"text":"到了2023反而降到降成11000噸左右也就是說我看到的數據是假如說澎湖可以維持在2022年轉運回台數的18000噸"},{"start":367.497,"end":381.59,"text":"我們大概在兩年之內就可以把所有的戰制的垃圾全部處理完畢我不知道為什麼2022可以轉運回台18000噸到了2023反而只剩下11000我跟楊委員報告 這個問題我們要現在積極來"},{"start":389.7,"end":406.887,"text":"大概現在是嘉義跟高雄市有在協助噴霧處理每天大概每週大概嘉義縣的部分處理了460然後高雄市是140也就是每週可以處理600噸"},{"start":408.208,"end":431.215,"text":"OK 那我們現在有環境部這邊正好有一些可以掌控來請各縣市來協助的部分我想我也請我們環管署的嚴署長特別針對這一塊來緊述的幫忙澎湖來做垃圾的處理因為澎湖跟金門、馬祖離島的基本上都沒有混化的設備"},{"start":432.876,"end":460.217,"text":"那這個優先我們會來考量特別是把那些戰事的看看能不能也順便盡快的把它處理掉部長我其實一直有感受到部裡面跟環環署對噴霧垃圾的處理的重視不過離島確實它有特殊性我不知道是不是嚴署長可以回答一下就是說為什麼2022"},{"start":462.999,"end":474.923,"text":"我看2022的垃圾轉運回來數量已經到了1萬8那到去年反而又降到1萬1到底是打包速度的問題還是本島縣市處理量的問題還是經費的問題"},{"start":481.341,"end":505.529,"text":"就經費上面來講沒有問題所有澎湖的轉運費用我們都全額補助每年大概有五千萬左右那會減少的原因最主要是在高雄這個部分它的處理量有減少所以在國內部分我們還是盡量幫澎湖這裡來調度其他縣市我們目前正在努力"},{"start":506.412,"end":530.058,"text":"我最後還是講一下因為我們看到2022的垃圾轉運回台的數量其實假如說以這個我還是講以這樣子的量跟澎湖每年製造的垃圾量來看大概我們只要連續兩年可以維持在18000就可以"},{"start":532.939,"end":558.657,"text":"處理掉好那這個問題還是我們朝這個目標來努力啦好還是請部裡面這邊那個最後還是謝謝部長對本府離島啦離島其實我今天也原本還有還有一個就是循環循環被使用的也在離島做做做推廣不過循環循環就是環保杯的循環在利用的的"},{"start":560.638,"end":588.657,"text":"的這個問題在澎湖其實在離島推廣的並沒有很好我其他再找時間來做跟你們做探討不過還是要感謝部長對離島環保各包括海底城網剛剛講到的向海致敬等等對在任期中對離島的做出的努力謝謝部長"},{"start":590.298,"end":594.624,"text":"謝謝楊委員也謝謝楊委員對環境部的一個指導跟支持好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151313","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151313","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016270760d0ce1b1df867b57f63d1b53b7532c5dab72e655c1c94881215e59f4c0ebf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:34:06 - 12:38:30","影片長度":"00:04:24","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-12"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":264,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:38:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:34:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1165,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（12時34分）主席好，我請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長請參考一下這個圖表，看完這張圖表，部長有什麼想法？"],["薛部長富盛：的確我們要減塑，但是也因為疫情的關係，以及消費行為的改變，事實上在塑膠的使用量是往上攀升。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為我是看到包含疫情期間到疫情之後都還是有增無減，沒有重回原況的趨勢，是不是可以簡單說明一下，現在到底有什麼樣的對策能夠把這樣的情況做減緩？"],["薛部長富盛：我們當然是希望從源頭減量，因為現在我們在談論推動很多政策面，特別是以往從末端，現在是要拉到源頭，因為源頭才能夠去追蹤整體的流向，而且源頭也比較好去管控。包括塑膠、紙餐具及一次性的塑膠用品等等，環境部現在都在思考要從源頭來減量、管控，當然末端使用者的配合跟再教育在某個程度也很重要，畢竟像陳委員所提到的塑膠餐具是我們每個人日常生活都在用的，特別是外食者，包括攤販、早餐店等等都在使用。剛剛劉委員也提到自備餐具或自備環保杯，這個就是牽涉到個人，政策上當然要去提供一些誘因，以誘因為主，如果從法制面去強制執行，我們當然是比較不希望馬上就從法制面來推動。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長，我只是要強調限塑政策是2050年轉型中不可或缺的一環，我還是希望不要只從消費端，要從生產端，如果能夠有一些更好的替代產品，你就不用再強迫性的跟消費者談這件事情，從源頭就可以控管。","再來我想要簡單談一下山林塑膠的垃圾。從這一張圖來看，荒野保護協會2019年所公布的數據，顯現限塑政策對於海洋生態是有正面的助益，這點我們是肯定的。但是在山林間的部分，我是嘉義縣山區的立法委員，這個部分我們也是希望去做掌握，我自己也有去做一些淨山的活動，我自己就撿到很多塑膠的廢物，以前淨灘是比較常有的活動，接下來淨山也需要。請教現在我們對於山林的掌握程度是怎麼樣？"],["薛部長富盛：我在這邊跟陳委員報告……"],["陳委員冠廷：無痕山林，就是我們提倡LNT無痕山林的部分。"],["薛部長富盛：環境部在今年開始推動第二期的「向海致敬」，整個海岸線的垃圾量大概從1,500公噸左右降到去年大概是將近900多公噸；同樣向山的這一塊，事實上淨山的這個活動，我也蠻期待，假如我們環境部許可，也應該可以提一個類似「向山致敬」，清理山區的垃圾。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請張嘉郡、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員不在。","請楊曜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","陳瑩","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃秀芳","張雅琳","洪申翰","蔡易餘","劉建國","陳冠廷","楊曜","蘇清泉"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事\n業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.469093750000001,"end":5.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.56159375,"end":7.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.88596875,"end":10.763468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.438468750000002,"end":11.860343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.72096875,"end":15.775343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.12096875,"end":20.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.512843750000002,"end":24.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.191593750000003,"end":26.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.37284375,"end":28.296593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.90409375,"end":30.102218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.355343750000003,"end":31.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.346593750000004,"end":34.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.06346875,"end":37.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.69596875,"end":51.516593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.88159375,"end":37.932218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.02284375,"end":55.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.376593750000005,"end":58.789718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.532218750000006,"end":60.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.20284375000001,"end":62.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.39659375,"end":68.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.69534375,"end":69.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.24784375,"end":72.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.96471875,"end":77.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.28471875000001,"end":78.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.73596875,"end":80.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.54159375,"end":82.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.78596875000001,"end":87.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.39284375000001,"end":87.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.98346875,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.45159375,"end":91.24034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.86471875000001,"end":94.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.64909375,"end":96.91034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.14659375000001,"end":98.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.64846875,"end":102.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.25534375000001,"end":105.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.27596875,"end":107.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.16596875,"end":114.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.72221875000001,"end":113.17784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.74721875,"end":115.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.86096875000001,"end":117.78471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.13909375,"end":118.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.08409375000001,"end":121.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.22284375000001,"end":125.32784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.73284375000001,"end":126.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.17159375000001,"end":127.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.85909375000001,"end":129.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.79971875,"end":135.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.92534375,"end":136.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.08971875,"end":138.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.16971875000002,"end":143.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.40534375000001,"end":193.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.65409375000002,"end":144.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.21159375000002,"end":208.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.16284375,"end":210.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.08659375000002,"end":212.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.03159375,"end":215.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.98034375,"end":217.71846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.39346875,"end":221.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.56159375000001,"end":226.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.49346875,"end":227.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.56909375,"end":229.14284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.73346875000001,"end":233.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.96909375,"end":234.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.13346875000002,"end":236.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.70284375000003,"end":237.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.44534375,"end":240.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.30971875,"end":247.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.11034375000003,"end":250.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.11846875,"end":251.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.53596875000002,"end":252.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.98721875,"end":255.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.28221875000003,"end":256.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.06659375000004,"end":258.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.97721875,"end":263.97284375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.468,"end":19.982,"text":"您好,我們請部長。好,請薛部長。好,陳委員好。部長好。部長請參考一下這個圖表。那看完這張圖表,部長有什麼想法?"},{"start":22.284,"end":50.723,"text":"的確我們要減塑了但是也因為疫情的關係這個跟消費行為的改變事實上在塑膠的使用量事實上是往上攀升了是因為部長我是看說他包含疫情期間到疫情之後他都還是有增無減他沒有重回原況的趨勢我想是不是可以簡單說明一下現在到底有什麼樣的對策能夠把這樣子的部分來去減緩"},{"start":52.305,"end":74.202,"text":"我們當然是希望從源頭減量因為現在當我們在談論推動很多這個政策面特別是以往從末端現在是要拉到源頭因為源頭也才能夠去追蹤它整體的流向而且源頭也比較好去管控所以包括"},{"start":74.862,"end":75.183,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":91.82,"end":91.86,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":122.54,"end":137.184,"text":"政策上當然要去提供一些誘因以誘因為主從法制面要去強制執行我們當然是比較不需要馬上一下就從法制面來推動"},{"start":143.267,"end":164.688,"text":"謝謝部長我只是要強調說這個限塑政策這個是2050年的轉型中不可以獲取的一環那我還是希望不要從不要只從消費端從生產端那如果能夠有一些更好的替代產品的話你就不用再強迫性的跟這些消費者在談這些事情他可以從源頭就可以控管"},{"start":165.488,"end":193.058,"text":"再來部長我想要簡單來談一下山林塑膠的垃圾那如果從這一張圖來看的話黃岩協會2019年它公布的數據它是顯現這個限塑政策是對於海洋生態是有正面的的這個注意那這點我們肯定但是在山林間的部分我想自己是嘉義縣山區的立法委員那我想這個部分我們也是希望去做掌握那我們自己也有去做一些淨山的活動那我們自己是看到說"},{"start":194.278,"end":208.527,"text":"我自己經濟就撿到很多塑膠的廢物那當然以前淨灘是比較常常出現的活動那接下來淨山也是需要但是現在我們的這個對於山林的掌握程度是怎麼樣"},{"start":209.429,"end":227.344,"text":"我這邊跟陳文報告吳恆山林就是我們提倡LNT這個吳恆山林的部分我們的環境部在今年開始推動第二期的上海致敬所以上海致敬的時候整個我們海岸線的垃圾量也從大概"},{"start":228.655,"end":228.955,"text":"好 謝謝部長 謝謝"},{"start":258.117,"end":258.338,"text":"陳冠廷"}]}},{"id":"151312","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151312","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016279c83d8cea6949ac4b57f63d1b53b7532c5dab72e655c1c944c93c959780201415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"12:19:06 - 12:34:04","影片長度":"00:14:58","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-12"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":898,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:34:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:19:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1089,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時19分）有請部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：請部長。"],["薛部長富盛：劉委員好！"],["劉委員建國：部長好！本席在3月14日也在這個委員會請教過部長關於紙杯上的塑膠杯蓋這個問題，環境部在4月8號有回文給本辦，內容大致上這樣寫，我就不再贅述。我們看第二段倒數第二行，反正最後就是回答我說「再以循環杯借用系統補足民眾即興消費對於飲料杯使用的需求，以逐步減少一次用飲料杯對環境之影響」，那就是朝向使用循環杯，我沒有意見。既然部裡面的答復是這樣，我就要就這個循環杯來請教部長，現在所有循環杯的杯蓋都是可以回收再利用的嗎？還是能有一次性的塑膠杯蓋？"],["薛部長富盛：就是一次性的塑膠，我們現在就是要思考請這個研發包括業者他們去思考取代性的材質，有業者提出用紙來取代這個一次性的塑膠這一塊，這個紙的部分就跟我們提到的吸管的概念一樣，用其他材質在便利性上就沒有像塑膠吸管一樣，所以這個杯蓋事實上也面臨到同樣的挑戰。當然，假如最後我們真的必須要強制執行的時候，我個人覺得可能也是必要，但是當然要有一個宣導期的這種概念。"],["劉委員建國：我這邊有個資料給部長做參考，循環杯只要使用17次，它的碳排放量就可以小於紙杯，如果循環杯上仍然使用一次性的塑膠杯蓋，就必須使用到549次之後，碳排才會小於紙杯，那每次的借用就會增加一個，就是549、549一直堆疊上去，所以我才希望環境部要來正視這樣的問題，不論是一次性的紙杯或是循環杯，既然要減塑就要做得徹底一點，不要說杯蓋還是塑膠的，我想技術上如果有問題，經濟部今天也有在現場，這兩部應該大家可以合作。局長，這你可以幫忙來一起處理吧？"],["連署長錦漳：我們一起來合作。"],["劉委員建國：所以你們到現在都還沒有合作嗎？"],["連署長錦漳：有、有、有，我們其實有在研發了。"],["劉委員建國：你們有在研發了？你都出馬了還研發這麼久？"],["連署長錦漳：因為這個要看社會上的消費習慣。"],["劉委員建國：這個還要看社會上的消費習慣？我們現在的政策就是要這樣走嘛，對不對？我們在推循環杯，然後這個杯蓋一直都是塑膠的，然後就會這樣一直堆疊，使用一次，549就堆疊一次，你們兩部共同研究這個多久了？"],["連署長錦漳：好久了。"],["劉委員建國：你還知道好久了！"],["連署長錦漳：上次推動的時候就有在合作了。"],["劉委員建國：好「酒」就要再喝一杯！多久了嘛？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，今年這個循環杯的杯蓋已經有用這種重複性使用的杯蓋了。"],["劉委員建國：比例呢？占比呢？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：這個我們再請業者來加強。"],["劉委員建國：所以你沒辦法講出比例嘛！你連占比都不清楚。"],["薛部長富盛：因為才剛剛開始而已。"],["劉委員建國：剛開始？什麼時候開始沒關係，讓我們知道一下嘛！讓委員會知道一下。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：如果說用的是循環杯，那杯蓋就要用重複使用的這種杯蓋。"],["劉委員建國：對，那什麼時候開始推？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：今年就開始推了，因為循環杯的那個量，業者慢慢在拓展。"],["劉委員建國：我知道你們「慢慢」在做拓展。"],["薛部長富盛：我們積極來拓展，不要說……"],["劉委員建國：你們再慢我也沒有意見，因為等一下我再講下去，你會覺得這個政策會慢到最終會往生。剛剛有委員特別提到在立院附近沒有半家使用循環杯嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：推廣得還不夠。"],["劉委員建國：我有幫你們做市場調查，3家中有1家，部長可以看一下，連地點我都可以指出來，在立院附近的3家有1家，同樣是7-11的系統。我現在要表達的是，環境部在112年就要求全臺的連鎖超商、速食店提供免費的循環杯借用，循環杯借用門市占比須達5%，對不對？那112年有達5%嗎？沒有！"],["賴署長瑩瑩：有。"],["劉委員建國：確定有？OK！那113年要達10%，對不對？那確定會達到？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：會。"],["劉委員建國：真的會？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：業者如果沒有達到會遭受到處罰。"],["劉委員建國：是可能會遭受處罰還是會遭受處罰？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：會遭受到處罰，因為是法令規定他要達成這個門市的比例。"],["劉委員建國：那你們會怎麼處罰？你知道比例有多高嗎？我們簡單講一個7-11就好了，不行，要講兩家比較公平。龍頭超商是7-11，第二個是全家嘛，對不對？你們說112年的時候要達到5%，請問他們這兩家達到幾趴？有掌握數據嗎？我講一個背景資料給部長聽。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["劉委員建國：像我的母縣有20個鄉鎮，全國最大的超商龍頭7-11，在雲林縣只有3個鄉鎮4家門市有循環杯的租借服務；再看全家超商，8個鄉鎮有17家；星巴克門市有2家。我這麼講還沒有辦法凸顯這個占比的比例達到什麼程度，相信你們手中的資料應該會比我更精準。","請部長再看另外一個表，這是民間民眾對考慮使用循環杯的調查，有意願的比例高達40%，算蠻高的，雖然沒有過半，但就一個推廣中的政策，民眾的意願算是還不錯的。但是提供循環杯的門市如果這麼少，光是找循環杯就讓人家卻步了，這個政策怎麼有辦法去達標？另外一點，在成功借到循環杯之後，因為每家循環杯的規格條件都不一樣，所以沒辦法統一歸還。媒體報導有民眾家住北市，上班地點在新北，一家三口都響應環境部的政策，卻因為跨縣市、跨連鎖業的循環杯無法流通，家中曾同時有4款7個循環杯，最終因為借用辦法不一和歸還不便，加上價格、材質等問題，而放棄使用循環杯，自備環保杯。這是近期的報導，這是一件事情。","另外，環境部在去年9月26日的報導中這樣回答，各家業者有自己的清潔、物流、回收管道，由中央來整合不太容易，暫時不會考慮統一系統，但是如果透過提高價差來吸引消費者，業者認為難度高，主要是因為賣飲料的利潤不高，現行的價差壓力已經很大，現實面還是得考量，這個我尊重啦。綜上，我做個結論，循環杯是環境部推的政策，但這個政策的成敗生死好像就隨緣的樣子，環境部好像也沒有能力去左右，這種講法的意思是這樣吧？"],["薛部長富盛：不會啦，委員，這個政策或許不能說如我們所預期，但總是我們在面對這個挑戰的時候會去找看看還有沒有合適的方法，我覺得也給大家一些時間，我們再來努力看看，我希望大家集思廣益，假如劉委員有更好的想法或建議，請不吝提供給我們參考。"],["劉委員建國：好，我一定會想出好方法來跟部長建議。","請部長再看下一張。統一規格不行，提高價差吸引消費者也不行，那衛生要行吧？你看這個循環杯，我們還有訂定要發新聞稿。"],["薛部長富盛：是，給委員報告……"],["劉委員建國：還有循環杯良好服務指引，使用循環杯的借用服務達到一致的水準，民眾才可以更安心來借用，這是我們發的新聞稿，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是，這個我們之前有談過。"],["劉委員建國：但是你看那個照片，這怎麼有辦法安心呢？"],["薛部長富盛：是，大家看到這個大概就不太會想用循環杯，這也是我們面臨的……"],["劉委員建國：今天剛好召委排這個案，所以我把這個事情提出來，因為我覺得這個政策真的快瀕臨失敗邊緣了，剛才署長說有罰嘛，對不對？確定有罰嗎？罰多少？罰幾家？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：目前業者都有達到。"],["劉委員建國：都有達到？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：在杯子的部分……"],["劉委員建國：你確定他們都有達到？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：我們除了這個……"],["劉委員建國：來，我講給你聽，因為時間關係。這是昨天我們助理到立院附近那3家的其中1家去找出來的，要借用這個循環杯是驚動到店長出來，店長一路尋找，尋找到最後倉庫找不到，我不曉得藏在哪裡，最後是在收銀台底下找出來，很不簡單才找到這個杯子，你等一下來看一下。我還幫你們找，立院附近3家7-11有1家有，就是這1家，真的有找到，只是不太好找，找到店長都要出面。我剛剛也用本縣的狀況分析給你們參考，實際的數字你們都會比我更清楚，我要講的是，在立法院周遭這麼多行政機關，包含臺大的校友會館經常有很多民間團體在舉辦相關的會議活動，也就是在人流這麼多的地方，但是3家7-11裡面只有1家有，而且要找出這個循環杯很不簡單，照理講，我找得出來，7-11應該對我獎勵才對。","再者，你再看全家或是其他的超商系統，可能在附近，因為我已經找了7-11，其他的你們就自己去調查，應該也很難找得出來。如果你們去年是5%，今年要達到10%，我覺得那是很大的挑戰，所以在這個會期結束前是不是請部長趕快檢討，然後看怎麼去做政策上的修正。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["劉委員建國：另外一點，因為自備環保杯跟循環杯的政策是相輔相成，所以我才希望循環杯這個政策不要失敗。我們看環境部在推自備環保杯的政策上，在連鎖的飲料店、便利超商、速食店和超市，民眾自備環保杯都能折扣5元，也因此民眾自備環保杯由過去的6%已經提升到16%，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：沒錯，那個倒是有提升。"],["劉委員建國：這很正向嘛，這是一個成功的政策，你們要不要擴大辦理？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["劉委員建國：要擴大辦理，也就是諸如連鎖早餐店、餐廳等，可能店內有提供紅茶、綠茶及豆漿等等，能不能也納入這個自備環保杯有折扣5元的政策？"],["薛部長富盛：我們來考慮，因為環保杯是自己的，所以民眾對自己的東西比較安心，當然隨身攜帶有時候會造成他們一些困擾，不過我覺得這個的確應該是可以推動的方向，感覺上反而比循環杯有效，對啊！"],["劉委員建國：我覺得部長今天答復我都有點虛虛的。最後，不僅自備環保杯，民間在去年自發性的外食自備餐盒優惠，這是民間自己發起的，已經串連六百多家業者，我剛剛進來，我看環境部也都有這樣響應，也都有以身作則，對不對？那很奇怪，你看立法院一天要吃多少個便當，只有環境部在做這個事情，經濟部有做嗎？你們連這個事情都沒辦法合作了，你們還有辦法合作什麼其他事情？所以你們要合作很久嘛！連便當餐盒你們就沒辦法合作了，連這個便當餐盒，環境部就沒辦法跟經濟部、跟其他部會合作了。環境部的人提供不鏽鋼便當盒，只有環境部在做而已，其他人都沒有在做，這個也不對吧？你們要想辦法啊！"],["薛部長富盛：好，OK。"],["劉委員建國：只有你們環境部這樣做而已，做到後來你們環境部也會埋怨，對不對？既然可以扣5塊，是不是經濟部也扣5塊，國發會也扣5塊，外交部也扣5塊，這樣環境部那個位置會變成非常的上位。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝劉委員的建議。"],["劉委員建國：我期待環境部因為這個政策，未來成為中央部會的第一大部會，好嗎？我希望是不是先把這樣的預算規模或是效益評估做出來給委員會做參考，部長，可不可以？"],["薛部長富盛：可以。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝劉委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉委員。","接下來請陳冠廷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","陳瑩","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃秀芳","張雅琳","洪申翰","蔡易餘","劉建國","陳冠廷","楊曜","蘇清泉"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事\n業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.000343750000001,"end":7.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.78909375,"end":9.548468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.582218750000003,"end":9.599093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.599093750000002,"end":10.290968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.974093750000002,"end":13.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.121593750000002,"end":14.661593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.15096875,"end":21.192218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.04471875,"end":20.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.63096875,"end":24.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.02721875,"end":24.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.465968750000002,"end":30.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.199093750000003,"end":33.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.017218750000005,"end":34.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.28721875,"end":34.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.400968750000004,"end":45.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.846593750000004,"end":46.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.369718750000004,"end":47.820968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.29346875,"end":49.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.98096875,"end":50.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.95971875,"end":52.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.900343750000005,"end":55.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.752218750000004,"end":58.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.08971875,"end":56.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.84034375,"end":60.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.320968750000006,"end":64.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.37159375,"end":61.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.61596875,"end":67.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.90221875,"end":68.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.93159375,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.23471875,"end":75.19221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.49596875,"end":76.00221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.25534375000001,"end":77.68971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.87534375,"end":79.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.25471875000001,"end":82.14471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.46534375,"end":85.95846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.00909375,"end":87.39284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.81471875000001,"end":90.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.80159375000001,"end":92.72534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.07971875000001,"end":96.25221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.60659375,"end":98.83409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.30659375,"end":101.55096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.05721875,"end":103.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.71096875,"end":108.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.99284375,"end":109.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.02659375,"end":114.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.37659375000001,"end":111.40596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.07221875,"end":114.37596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.37596875000001,"end":116.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.40971875000001,"end":114.44346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.89034375000001,"end":116.90721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.97471875000001,"end":117.32909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.32909375000001,"end":145.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.34596875000001,"end":117.37971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.76221875,"end":126.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.90034375000002,"end":134.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.10096875000002,"end":151.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.15909375,"end":153.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.69471875000002,"end":154.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.17971875,"end":155.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.71971875,"end":157.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.49159375000002,"end":161.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.52471875,"end":162.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.17846875,"end":164.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.64221875,"end":169.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.40096875,"end":178.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.60221875000002,"end":183.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.49159375000002,"end":184.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.89659375000002,"end":187.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.73159375,"end":188.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.22096875000003,"end":190.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.76471875000001,"end":197.95784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.65909375,"end":196.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.45159375,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.13909375,"end":199.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.66221875000002,"end":199.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.69596875000002,"end":199.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.04596875000001,"end":201.72096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.07534375,"end":202.12596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.12596875000003,"end":202.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.88534375,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.02034375000002,"end":203.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.29346875000002,"end":212.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.86284375000002,"end":212.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.77409375000002,"end":216.06471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.46971875000003,"end":219.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.28784375,"end":221.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.70096875000002,"end":225.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.51471875000001,"end":229.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.80096875,"end":229.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.83471875,"end":231.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.27346875,"end":230.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.70346875,"end":238.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.63159375,"end":234.20534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.93034375000002,"end":241.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":241.95096875000002,"end":244.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.27971875000003,"end":244.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.56221875000003,"end":246.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.49034375000002,"end":249.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.17346875,"end":249.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.37159375000002,"end":252.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.78471875000002,"end":253.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.83096875,"end":255.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.48034375000003,"end":259.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.07471875000005,"end":260.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.10409375,"end":261.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.74534375,"end":261.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.89721875000004,"end":262.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.18409375000005,"end":262.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.35284375000003,"end":264.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.09096875,"end":265.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":265.64346875,"end":266.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.80784375,"end":267.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.82034375,"end":270.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.43159375,"end":277.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":272.93346875000003,"end":273.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.03471875,"end":273.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.42659375,"end":276.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.84409375,"end":279.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.80159375,"end":279.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.98721875,"end":282.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.39596875,"end":290.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.75346875,"end":293.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.28034375000004,"end":294.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.07346875,"end":296.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.94659375000003,"end":297.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.01409375000003,"end":297.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.65096875,"end":299.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.40596875,"end":300.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.92909375,"end":303.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.56159375000004,"end":304.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.33784375000005,"end":305.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.39659375,"end":306.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.44284375,"end":307.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.10096875,"end":310.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.86409375,"end":315.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.17159375,"end":319.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.50471875,"end":317.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.68971875,"end":322.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.50784375,"end":324.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.66346875,"end":328.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.68846875,"end":328.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.09346875,"end":339.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.64034375,"end":341.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.53034375000004,"end":342.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.94784375,"end":344.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.67721875,"end":349.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.30971875,"end":350.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.16159375,"end":352.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.37659375000004,"end":354.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.04721875,"end":356.19471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.46471875000003,"end":370.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.50471875000005,"end":370.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.96034375000005,"end":380.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.93346875000003,"end":385.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.77659375,"end":387.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.05471875,"end":396.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.47534375000004,"end":396.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.42034375000003,"end":397.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.75346875,"end":400.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.11596875000004,"end":402.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.68534375,"end":404.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.40659375,"end":406.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.21221875000003,"end":406.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.51596875,"end":407.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.44409375000004,"end":408.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.91221875,"end":409.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.70534375000005,"end":413.92409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.68346875000003,"end":416.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.02909375,"end":422.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.63159375000004,"end":424.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.87596875,"end":426.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.68159375000005,"end":428.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.19596875,"end":430.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.10284375000003,"end":442.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.33721875000003,"end":447.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.25221875000005,"end":451.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.97721875,"end":455.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.48721875,"end":458.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.26721875000004,"end":460.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.60034375000004,"end":467.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.86909375000005,"end":469.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.59471875,"end":473.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.61096875000004,"end":474.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.52221875000004,"end":482.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.53346875000005,"end":483.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.00596875,"end":485.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.79034375000003,"end":488.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":487.68471875000006,"end":490.21596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":490.70534375000005,"end":492.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":493.33784375000005,"end":496.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":497.26971875000004,"end":502.45034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":502.65284375000005,"end":503.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":503.73284375000003,"end":507.05721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":507.71534375000005,"end":509.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":509.26784375000005,"end":511.34346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":511.66409375,"end":513.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":513.9084687500001,"end":517.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.8572187500001,"end":522.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":522.43034375,"end":522.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.70034375,"end":523.5947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.96159375,"end":528.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.16346875,"end":531.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.7197187500001,"end":533.7365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":533.7365937500001,"end":534.3103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.83784375,"end":536.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":535.94721875,"end":537.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.4365937499999,"end":549.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":546.6459687500001,"end":547.2197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":547.7765937500001,"end":549.5147187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.70034375,"end":552.3159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":551.50596875,"end":556.7878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":557.26034375,"end":557.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.3953437499999,"end":558.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.6103437500001,"end":565.0903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.44471875,"end":566.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.42346875,"end":567.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.9040937500001,"end":570.7097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.8740937499999,"end":572.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.07221875,"end":573.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.30409375,"end":575.6709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.0590937500001,"end":578.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":580.2778437500001,"end":582.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.6740937500001,"end":584.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.5178437500001,"end":586.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.0828437499999,"end":587.2978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":587.2978437500001,"end":589.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.08659375,"end":590.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.1203437500001,"end":589.1372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.6684687500001,"end":592.8159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.88346875,"end":594.2334687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.12784375,"end":595.4990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.7353437500001,"end":598.4353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.77284375,"end":599.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.73471875,"end":600.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.2240937500001,"end":604.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.92346875,"end":610.3828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.02409375,"end":611.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.68221875,"end":613.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.5890937500001,"end":615.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.6940937500001,"end":619.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.2040937500001,"end":621.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.80721875,"end":624.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.23284375,"end":626.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.49409375,"end":628.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.6372187500001,"end":631.3584687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.0334687500001,"end":633.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":634.04159375,"end":649.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.96721875,"end":651.5747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.9965937500001,"end":652.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.90784375,"end":653.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.1228437500001,"end":654.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":654.9665937500001,"end":656.3503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.6540937500001,"end":657.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.15596875,"end":658.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.98284375,"end":660.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.3328437499999,"end":661.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.8472187500001,"end":663.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.47159375,"end":663.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.75409375,"end":665.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.3740937500002,"end":668.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.7703437499999,"end":669.5634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.62659375,"end":673.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.2040937500001,"end":675.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":675.3515937500001,"end":677.6128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.45284375,"end":675.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.0178437500001,"end":678.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":678.23721875,"end":678.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":678.76034375,"end":680.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.4097187500001,"end":685.0715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.5947187500001,"end":686.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.0122187500001,"end":688.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.07534375,"end":688.1765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.22721875,"end":688.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.9865937500001,"end":706.5365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":706.77284375,"end":718.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.33221875,"end":723.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":722.8715937500001,"end":724.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":724.4072187500001,"end":728.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":725.60534375,"end":725.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":728.6259687500001,"end":730.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":730.22909375,"end":730.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":731.25846875,"end":734.7009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.8528437500001,"end":743.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":736.8272187500002,"end":737.6709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":743.9990937500002,"end":746.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":747.0703437500001,"end":749.4665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":749.5847187500001,"end":751.8797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":752.2678437500001,"end":756.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":756.72284375,"end":758.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":758.8997187500001,"end":760.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":761.17784375,"end":762.2409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":762.32534375,"end":762.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":763.30409375,"end":763.6584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":764.45159375,"end":767.4890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":767.53971875,"end":777.1753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":777.47909375,"end":782.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":781.6472187500001,"end":782.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":782.86221875,"end":790.3884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":791.01284375,"end":792.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":793.3247187500001,"end":794.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":796.32846875,"end":799.6528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":799.88909375,"end":801.3740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":801.9309687500001,"end":810.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":810.38534375,"end":813.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":813.6928437500001,"end":816.5615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":817.2365937500001,"end":818.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":818.6540937500001,"end":818.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":819.53159375,"end":819.8859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":820.6115937500001,"end":822.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":823.09221875,"end":824.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":824.50971875,"end":826.9228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":825.99471875,"end":828.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":828.1884687500001,"end":828.4753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":828.57659375,"end":829.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":829.53846875,"end":830.1965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":830.8715937500001,"end":830.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":831.4115937500001,"end":832.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":833.16659375,"end":833.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":833.20034375,"end":833.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":833.23409375,"end":836.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":836.96346875,"end":837.3684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":837.5034687500001,"end":842.5828437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":843.71346875,"end":844.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":845.83971875,"end":846.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":849.1809687500001,"end":850.1428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":850.2947187500001,"end":850.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":850.8347187500001,"end":851.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":851.49284375,"end":851.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":852.30284375,"end":856.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":856.9265937500002,"end":857.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":857.83784375,"end":858.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":858.4284687500001,"end":860.0147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":860.0990937500001,"end":866.2078437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":866.7309687500001,"end":871.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":871.59096875,"end":872.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":871.60784375,"end":871.9453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":872.2490937500002,"end":873.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":874.0547187500001,"end":874.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":874.2065937500001,"end":876.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":875.7422187500001,"end":879.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":879.85971875,"end":879.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":879.9778437500001,"end":880.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":880.75409375,"end":881.9015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":882.4922187500001,"end":887.2509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":887.5715937500001,"end":889.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":890.5247187500001,"end":892.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":891.14909375,"end":891.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":892.0265937500001,"end":893.7140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":892.97159375,"end":894.6084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":894.82784375,"end":896.2959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":897.6628437500001,"end":898.3547187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.008,"end":21.012,"text":"好,有請部長。謝謝主席。好,請部長。好,劉文好。部長好。部長本席在3月14日也在這個委員會來請教部長關於紙杯上的"},{"start":21.761,"end":48.683,"text":"受加杯蓋的問題環境部在4月8日有回文給本辦內容大致上這樣寫我就不再追溯我們看後面第二段的導述第二條反正最後就是回答我說在與循環杯借用系統補足民眾及新消費對於飲料杯使用的需求以逐步減少一次用的飲料杯對環境之影響那就是朝向循環杯我沒有意見"},{"start":50.031,"end":60.253,"text":"因為你提到既然不答覆我是這樣,那我就要就這個詢問杯來請教部長。現在所有的詢問杯的杯蓋都是可以回收再利用的嗎?"},{"start":61.543,"end":85.612,"text":"還是能有一次性的塑膠?就是一次性的塑膠,對啊所以我們現在就是說思考請研發包括業者他們去思考取代性的有業者提出來當然是用紙來取代一次性的塑膠的這一塊紙的這個部分就是跟我們提到吸管的概念也是一樣"},{"start":86.192,"end":92.176,"text":"當然,假如最後我們真的必須要強制執行的時候我個人覺得可能也是必要但是當然要有一個宣導期的這種概念"},{"start":109.228,"end":135.373,"text":"我這邊有個資料也給部長做參考啦你看那個循環杯只要使用17次嘛那碳排放就可以小一次杯啦如果循環杯上仍然是一次性的這個塑膠杯蓋必須使用到549次之後這個碳排才會小一次杯啦那每一次的借用就會增加一個嘛那就是堆疊上去嘛就549、549一直堆疊上去嘛所以我才希望說環境部要來正視這樣的問題啦"},{"start":136.713,"end":163.978,"text":"不論是一次性的紙杯或是循環杯竟然要減塑那就做的徹底一點不要留杯蓋還是塑膠我想技術上如果有問題經濟部有在現場這兩步應該大家可以 局長這你也當倒出力吧你們所以到現在都還沒有合作嗎有有有我們其實這我們有在研發了你們有在研發了你都出馬了還研發這麼久"},{"start":165.714,"end":190.266,"text":"因為這個要看那個社會上那個消費習慣這個跟社會上消費習慣現在我們就是政策就是要這樣走嘛對不對我們就推旋軟杯然後這個杯蓋一直都是塑膠的然後就會這樣啊就會一直堆疊五四九就堆疊就堆疊一次堆疊一次啊你們兩部共同研究這個不是好啦這麼好多久了啦"},{"start":193.023,"end":218.889,"text":"好久了!你還知道好久了!好久就要再喝一杯啊!跟委員報告,我們今年這個循環杯杯蓋已經有用這種重複型的那個使用的那個杯蓋了。那比例勒?佔比勒?這個我們再來請業者來加強。所以你沒辦法講出比例嗎?你連佔比都不清楚嗎?"},{"start":219.813,"end":249.478,"text":"因為剛才開始而已?剛開始,什麼時候開始沒關係嘛,讓我知道一下嘛,讓委員知道一下如果說你用徐環杯,那杯蓋就是要用重複使用這種杯蓋?是,對,什麼時候開始推?今年就開始推了,因為徐環杯的那個量就是我們業者這樣慢慢在拓展我知道你們慢慢在做拓展我們積極來拓展,沒有什麼你們在慢啦,我也沒有意見啦,因為等一下"},{"start":250.407,"end":270.348,"text":"等一下我再講下去你會覺得這個政策會慢到最終會往生呢?剛剛有委員特別提到嘛齁說在立院附近沒有半家循環杯使用嘛對不對沒有啦我有幫你們做市場調查三家有一家啦"},{"start":271.442,"end":278.125,"text":"我們現在112年環境部就要求全台的連鎖超商、速食店提供免費的循環杯借用那循環杯借用是佔比需達5%嗎?對不對?那112年有達5%嗎?沒有?有?確定有?"},{"start":300.458,"end":324.35,"text":"好,那113你要達10%嘛對不對?OK好,那確定會達到?會?真的會?那葉子有沒有達到會遭受到處罰?可能會遭受處罰?是可能還是會遭受處罰?會遭受到處罰,因為是蘇法令來規定他要達成這個門市的比例那你們會怎麼處罰?你知道比例有多高嗎?"},{"start":326.701,"end":327.141,"text":"我講一個背景資料給部長聽"},{"start":353.5,"end":367.271,"text":"這個像我的母縣我們是20鄉鎮在全國最大的超商西門龍頭雲林縣只有3個鄉鎮4家門市有旋轉杯的租借服務你看全家8鄉鎮有17個星巴克8家門市有2個"},{"start":371.038,"end":397.654,"text":"我這麼講還沒有辦法去凸顯這一個占比的比例達到什麼程度那你們所中的資料應該會比我更精準嘛齁那你再看請問大家看另外一個表這是民間民眾對使用考慮循環杯的調查有意願的比例高達40%啦算蠻高的雖然沒有過半嘛對不對所以這個政策一個推廣中的政策那民眾的意願算是還不錯啦齁但是但是"},{"start":398.806,"end":423.815,"text":"提供循環杯的門市如果這麼少你光找循環杯就會讓人家卻步了你這個政策怎麼辦法去達標那另外一點你知道成功借到循環杯之後因為循環杯的每家規格條件都不一樣所以沒辦法統一歸還媒體有報導在這個在都會台北新北的某姓的民眾他們有一家三口"},{"start":424.926,"end":449.373,"text":"都要響應我們這個環境部的政策卻因為跨縣市、跨連鎖業的循環杯無法流通家中同時有4管7個循環杯最終因為金融半導不一、規管不便加上價格、材質等問題而放棄使用循環杯、自備環保杯這是近期的報導嗎?這是一件事情那另外環境部在去年的9月26號報導中這樣回答"},{"start":452.031,"end":466.566,"text":"各家業者有自己清潔物流回收管道由中央來整合不太容易暫時不會考慮統一系統但是如果透過提高價差來吸引消費者業者認為難度高主要因為是賣飲料的利潤不高現行的價差業力已經很大現實裡面還是得考量這個我尊重"},{"start":476.01,"end":485.559,"text":"所以重上這結論循環背視環境部推政策但這個政策的成敗生死好像就隨緣的樣子環境部好像也沒有能力去左右"},{"start":487.18,"end":506.648,"text":"眾講我的意思是這樣嗎?這個劉文我想這個政策或許並不能說如我們所預期的但是總是我們是在面對這個挑戰的時候去找出看看有沒有還合適的方法我覺得也給大家一些時間我們再來"},{"start":507.788,"end":531.372,"text":"努力看看,我希望我們這個大家集思廣益,只要劉委員有更好的想法或建議也不定提供給我們參考。好,我一定會想出好話來跟部長建議。部長你在看下一張這個照片。我們想同意過的不行,提高價差性消費者也不行。那衛生要行吧,你看這個循環杯。"},{"start":533.897,"end":551.956,"text":"我們還有訂訂齁,我們還發新聞稿捏。循環杯,良好服務指引,使用循環杯的借用服務已經達到一致的水準,民眾才可以更能安心來借用嘛,對不對?這是我們發的新聞稿嘛。剛剛你看那個照片,這怎麼有辦法去安心呢?"},{"start":552.597,"end":572.211,"text":"大家一看到這個大概就不太會想要去用喜歡 這個也是我們命令你知道我今天為什麼剛好章偉排這個案所以我把這個事情提出來因為我覺得這個政策真的是在快快濒臨那個失敗的邊緣剛才市長講 署長講說有華 對不對確定有華嗎 華多少 華幾家"},{"start":580.642,"end":604.682,"text":"目前他們業者都有達到喔都有達到?都有達到?你確定他們都有達到?這個齁來我講給你聽因為時間關係這是昨天我們助理齁去我們立院附近那三家一家去找出來的你知道要借用這個循環杯驚動到店長出來"},{"start":606.957,"end":628.691,"text":"店長一路尋找,尋找到最後倉庫找不到,我不曉得藏在哪裡,最後是在那個收音台底下去找出來啦,很不簡單去找到這個啦,你怎麼在這看一看就對了啦,我還幫你們講喔,律院三家,戶界三家7有一家有啦,就是這一家,真的有找到,但是不太好找。"},{"start":629.696,"end":656.747,"text":"找到店長都要出面那我剛剛又用本縣的狀況又分析給你們做參考那11個數字你們都會比我更清楚那我只是講說在立法院這個周遭這麼多行政機關包含台大的校園會館也見長很多的民間團體在舉辦相關的會議的活動也就人有這麼多的地方一個7-11只有一家有三家有一家有但是要找出循環杯不簡單"},{"start":658.206,"end":682.671,"text":"不簡單,照理講我找得出來7-11應該對我獎勵才對應該是這樣另外一點你在看全家在看其他的超商系統可能在附近我去找7-11其他你們自己去調查應該也很難找得出來如果說你們去年是5%"},{"start":683.567,"end":687.744,"text":"你今天要達到10%我覺得那個是很大的挑戰"},{"start":689.616,"end":717.375,"text":"這是一點啦齁所以我就請部長說這個會期結束前是不是趕快趕快檢討然後看怎麼去做這個政策上的一個修正嘛那另外一點因為你自備環保杯跟循環杯的政策是相無相成嘛所以我才希望循環杯這個政策你不要失敗齁你看齁環境部在推自備環保杯的政策上在連鎖的飲料店、便利超商、速食店還有這個超級市這個超市啦齁民眾自備環保杯都能折扣5元嘛"},{"start":718.456,"end":743.133,"text":"也因此民眾自備環保費由過去的6%已經提升到16%嘛 對不對對很正向嘛這很正向那這個是一個成功的政策那你們要不要擴大辦理要擴大辦理就是說諸如連鎖早餐店啦餐廳啦他可能店內有提供紅茶啦綠茶啦豆漿等等等嘛對不對能不能也納入這個自備環保費有折扣的委員的政策"},{"start":744.042,"end":762.638,"text":"我們來考慮我覺得這個因為環保杯是自己的所以他對自己這個東西也比較安心當然就是說隨身攜帶有時候會造成他們一些困擾不過我覺得這個的確是應該是可以推動的方向反而比循環杯感覺上是比較有效"},{"start":764.797,"end":793.877,"text":"部長今天打呼我都有點虛虛的齁你看齁主席最後這個連結的啦齁這個不僅自備環保杯明天在去年自發性的這個外食自備餐盒優惠啦齁這明天自起發起的喔已經有串聯600多家的業者我剛剛進來我看我們環境部也都有這樣響應嘛也都有以身作者啦對不對那很奇怪你看立法院一天要吃多少個便當呢只有環境部在做這個事情經濟部有做嗎"},{"start":796.4,"end":814.851,"text":"你們這個事情都沒辦法合作了你還有辦法合作什麼其他事情所以你們要合作很久嘛連這一個便當餐盒你們就沒辦法合作了連這個便當餐盒環境部就沒辦法跟經濟部跟其他部會合作了所以一天在立法院吃的不是那個"},{"start":823.933,"end":844.525,"text":"欸...那個...你們環境部提供那個叫什麼?北梯啊?鐵便當盒?他不叫鐵便當盒嗎?不銹鋼啦,不銹鋼便當盒,我們不銹鋼講不出來只有不在做而已,環境部在做,其他人都沒有在做,這個也不對吧?"},{"start":849.212,"end":854.381,"text":"你們要想辦法啊。好。對啊。OK。你們這樣繼續把你們的環境部這樣做到,很快你們的環境部也會完蛋了。"},{"start":856.96,"end":879.573,"text":"對不對?我們靠五口你是不是?不然你就經濟部也靠五口給他啦!國安會也靠五口給他啦!外交部也靠五口給他啦!這樣環境部會變成非常的那個位置會變成非常的上位啦!好謝謝劉恩的建議我期待環境部因為這個政策未來成為我們中央部會的第一大部會啦!"},{"start":880.954,"end":880.974,"text":"謝謝劉委員"}]}},{"id":"151311","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151311","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016272740278675eb1286cf744a9f110b3b1fc5dab72e655c1c94e3de8b0d8230918a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:40:19 - 12:47:02","影片長度":"00:06:43","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":403,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:47:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:40:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1002,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時40分）主席、各位委員，有請財政部部長。"],["主席：有請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長辛苦啦，也恭喜你繼續擔任部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：還是要以準閣揆最後的發布為準。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，921震災的時候有訂了重建的暫行條例，莫拉克颱風的時候也有訂了一個災後重建的特別條例，本席也在內政委員會跟內政部，還有相關的部會提了，震災、風災就每一個受災戶個案而言，個案救助的額度、租屋的補貼、重建的額度、利率，以及年限等，不論是一個大區域的發生還是一個小區域的發生，不應該有這樣的一個差別待遇，對一個受災戶而言這個是基本的。所以無論是0403的大地震還是未來，因為臺灣是一個多颱風、多地震、多水災的一個地方，部長就是應該要去定一個常態性的，只要是因為風災、只要是因為地震或水災，所發生的天然災害，房屋傾倒了，不能住了，應該要有一樣的協助。部長，你認同嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然對災害，我們對受損的企業產業也好，或個人也好，都應該要有所補助的方式，來讓他們可以儘快地復原。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，因為這個部分，未來我會去推動修正災害防救法，然後災害防救法還沒有修之前，對於0403大地震所造成的災害，我們還是必須要去面對。所以這個部分，尤其部長是留任的，在未來新的行政院長上任之後，我一樣會做這樣的質詢，希望能夠促成這個方向。","我們看當初921大地震的時候，財政部訂了一個九二一震災災民重建家園貸款信用保證業務處理要點，這是89年開始，後來又做了修正。此信用保證業務處理要點我上次有提到這個修繕最高150萬元，重建購屋貸款是350萬元這個部分。然後相關的注意事項裡面就提到，購屋及住宅重建貸款每戶最高350萬元，150萬元以下是免息。固定利率以民國88年、89年當時的利率，然後用比較低的固定利率，是這樣。那後來央行就做一個修正，做了一個有效的部分，就是按照郵局的固定利率來作為標準。所以在這樣的情形之下，現在是以113年上個月中華郵政存款利率的標準，當然現在是比以前的低了。我的意思是，為什麼要把這個數字呈現出來，也就是財政部跟相關的銀行在做討論的時候、去規劃的時候，能夠朝這個方向去努力。","也就是說，這一次0403地震受災戶的部分，除了增加租屋租金是其他部會的業務，希望對於購屋及住宅重建貸款的部分，必須要由財政部去協調相關的銀行，是不是能夠以每戶最高1,000萬元，因為是25年前是350萬元，那是25年前喔，現在的房價、各方面的增加，我是希望能夠1,000萬元，450萬元以下是免息，然後450萬元以上利率就按照郵局存款利率，郵局一年期定期定存的固定利率，然後還要比這個低，希望能夠朝這個方向去處理，包括修繕貸款也是一樣，最高300萬元以下免息，部長，是不是可以往這方面去努力？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，0403地震的部分，本部的所屬機關也好、公股行庫也好，對於災民受損的一些補助，都是從優、從寬、從簡方式來做處理，那委員這項建議的話，我想公股行庫，他們今天也都在這邊，也許可以把它納入一個參考。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個部分還是要以財政部來正式的，因為之前我剛有提嘛，當初還是正式定了一個要點，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們來研議，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢，接著我們請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-8","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","王世堅","顏寬恒","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","羅明才","林楚茵","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","吳春城","陳亭妃","王定宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就\n「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.03846875,"end":9.126593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.15596875,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.973468750000002,"end":18.137843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.24346875,"end":18.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.137843750000002,"end":18.188468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.50909375,"end":22.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.11596875,"end":28.313468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.27534375,"end":29.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.22034375,"end":30.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.92471875,"end":33.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.78096875,"end":37.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.40471875,"end":41.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.48846875,"end":44.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.44159375,"end":46.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.774718750000005,"end":47.837843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.580343750000004,"end":50.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.02721875,"end":52.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.267218750000005,"end":55.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.625343750000006,"end":61.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.265968750000006,"end":64.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.61159375,"end":68.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.76284375,"end":69.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.55159375000001,"end":73.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.53409375000001,"end":75.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.68159375,"end":77.95971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.83721875,"end":81.31784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.78596875000001,"end":86.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.49409375,"end":88.69221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.04659375,"end":90.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.93221875,"end":92.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.43409375,"end":94.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.73346875,"end":95.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.11721875,"end":96.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.41659375,"end":98.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.71596875,"end":100.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.63971875,"end":101.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.36534375000001,"end":102.36096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.18784375000001,"end":104.25096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.62221875,"end":105.12846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.78659375000001,"end":108.46971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.26284375,"end":112.33409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.63784375,"end":114.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.93284375,"end":115.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.77659375,"end":116.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.02534375,"end":119.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.34971875000001,"end":121.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.20596875000001,"end":123.21846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.99471875,"end":125.74971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.30659375,"end":127.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.84221875000001,"end":129.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.33971875,"end":136.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.98846875,"end":141.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.24096875,"end":149.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.23534375,"end":160.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.15784375,"end":163.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.51596875,"end":174.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.37909375,"end":176.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.01596875,"end":179.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.03659375,"end":180.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.23471875,"end":182.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.56784375,"end":189.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.60471875000002,"end":194.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.89909375000002,"end":196.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.18159375000002,"end":198.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.78471875000002,"end":199.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.29096875000002,"end":200.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.40034375000002,"end":203.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.57721875000001,"end":205.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.97346875000002,"end":206.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.84659375,"end":216.46971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.92534375000002,"end":219.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.48596875,"end":221.61659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.25784375,"end":236.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.43284375000002,"end":237.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.06971875000002,"end":240.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.17471875,"end":241.90034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.10284375,"end":243.03096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.43596875000003,"end":243.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.10659375,"end":245.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.43971875000003,"end":247.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.62096875,"end":249.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.35909375000003,"end":251.85659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.24471875,"end":260.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.86784375,"end":261.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.26846875,"end":264.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.08659375,"end":265.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.62221875,"end":267.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.73159375,"end":272.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.66346875,"end":273.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.32159375000003,"end":274.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.70534375,"end":277.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.35471875,"end":281.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.07971875000004,"end":282.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.27784375000005,"end":284.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.91471875,"end":285.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.84284375000004,"end":296.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.37284375,"end":299.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.01784375,"end":301.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.26221875000005,"end":309.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.27784375000005,"end":319.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.30159375,"end":322.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.44034375,"end":330.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.52784375000005,"end":331.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.19846875,"end":333.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.03784375000004,"end":339.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.97784375000003,"end":341.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.81721875,"end":347.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.50409375000004,"end":353.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.74784375,"end":356.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.85284375000003,"end":359.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.27846875,"end":362.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.84346875,"end":363.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.99096875000004,"end":367.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.41659375,"end":371.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.60159375,"end":378.58784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.73971875,"end":391.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.51409375000003,"end":403.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.08221875000004,"end":402.28034375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.255,"end":29.321,"text":"主席貴委員有請財政部部長有請莊部長部長好辛苦了也恭喜你繼續當任部長還是要以這個準格奎的最後的發布才是為準次好這個"},{"start":32.718,"end":61,"text":"921政災的時候有訂了這個重建的帳型條例莫拉克颱風的時候也有訂了一個災禍重建的特別條例本席這個也在內政委員會跟內政部還有相關的部會也提了政災、風災就個案的而言就每一個受災戶而言"},{"start":62.301,"end":88.215,"text":"各案的救助的額度、租屋的補貼、重建的額度、利率以及年限不應該它是一個大七億的發生還是一個小七億的發生不應該有這樣的一個差別待遇這個是基本的對一個受災富而言所以無論是這個04、03的大地震"},{"start":91.957,"end":91.977,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":120.407,"end":122.909,"text":"我會去推動修正這個災害防救法"},{"start":150.299,"end":151.6,"text":"財政部長翠雲、經濟部長翠雲、經濟部長翠雲、經濟部長翠雲、經濟部長翠雲、"},{"start":175.441,"end":198.855,"text":"好我們看這個當初九二一大地震的時候這個財政部訂了一個九二一震災災民重建家園貸款信用保證業務處理要點這89年下面那個畫紅線的89年開始後來又做了修正這個信用保證業務處理要點"},{"start":201.411,"end":201.591,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":220.523,"end":220.543,"text":"報告．"},{"start":245.111,"end":268.012,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":268.789,"end":268.929,"text":"財政部"},{"start":284.906,"end":284.926,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":310.345,"end":311.106,"text":"財政部協調銀行"},{"start":323.439,"end":347.449,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":347.85,"end":359.132,"text":"這個利率就按照有幾條這個存款利率一年期固定期定存的一個固定利率的然後還要比這個還要低"},{"start":360.362,"end":383.359,"text":"是這樣的希望能夠朝這個方向去處理包括修繕貸款也是一樣最高300萬以下免息這個部長是不是可以往這方面盡努力跟委員報告0403這個地震的部分本部的所屬機關也好我們的供股行庫也好對於這個災民的一些受損的一些補助都是從優從寬從簡來的方式來做處理那委員這一項建議的話"},{"start":386.961,"end":387.081,"text":"政務部長"}]}},{"id":"151310","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151310","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f0162703f47ce739d61209068d0b55d8f96a4ec5dab72e655c1c94357500fb7aca0c625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"12:38:45 - 12:47:04","影片長度":"00:08:19","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":499,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:47:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:38:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":555,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（12時38分）謝謝。我們請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：李委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：邱部長好，你辛苦了。剛剛參加了國防外交委員會所召開的「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」會議，在報告裡面，針對建案沿革的部分，很清楚的把過去四位總統─從李登輝總統到陳水扁總統、馬英九總統、蔡英文總統與我們潛艦相關的，不管是2001年、2002年採購的進度或2015年、2016年確定潛艦國造，或是2017年後，蔡英文政府開始編列潛艦國造相關預算，到目前為止，海鯤號的預算編列達到四百九十幾億，也就是在剛才的秘密會議裡面我們所聽到的，不管是接下來的港試或未來海試，我們都很期待潛艦國造第一艘的海鯤號，可以讓全世界的人看到臺灣有這個能力來製造潛艦，甚至在蔡英文總統之後的賴清德總統也宣示，未來另外的7艘潛艦，希望可以一次來建造，這過程就有很多故事了。","在剛才的秘密會議裡面，我們看到很多媒體所報導的與秘密會議裡面讓我們知道的，其實不盡然相同，所以如果可以藉由這個機會請教部長，目前的進度以及方向，對於國人關心我們的潛艦國造，以及潛艦到底什麼時候可以在臺灣四周，真正的嚇阻敵軍可能會有超越我國領海等等的這些行為，這是國人最想知道的。第二個，預算也是國人最想知道的。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員，委員剛剛提了幾點，我第一個要說明的剛剛陳委員跟我指導過，的確賴副總統講過要一次建完，也就是一下要增加七艘的容量各方面，預算編列就成了問題。事實上，剛剛陳委員指導的很對，要一系列，一系列的話，預算怎麼編列，我們目前並沒有一定要編成一個專案或者納入年度，剛剛在聽取各方意見之後，為了保持彈性，也可以做個轉換，因為目前還沒有定案，還在研擬當中。但是這個名稱的用法跟後來的解讀是滿有關聯性的，所以我們絕對納入參考。","第二個，陳永康委員很關切，我們也很關切，什麼時候成軍？什麼時候形成戰力？我們剛剛有講到，測試沒有問題，戰鬥測驗也沒有問題，自然就納入戰鬥的序列。所以這個是逐年成長的，哪怕8艘統統都到定位了以後，剛才也講到，舊的就慢慢要汰換了……"],["李委員柏毅：都四十年以上了。"],["邱部長國正：戰力的儲存沒有嫌多的啦！越多資源儲存在那邊越好嘛！當然，儲存了以後沒有人力去維護也不行，所以就要找到一個平衡點，讓人員可以維護，戰力也可以發揮，不會形成浪費，畢竟這都來自全國人民的納稅錢，我們不會平白無故去亂花、亂用。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝部長。其實我們在這個過程裡面，也跟國人很清楚地說明，潛艦國造以及潛艦未來可以怎麼樣來保衛我們臺灣的安全的這個重要性，大部分人也接受。接下來我們要面對的是這七艘怎麼造，我如果講到機密會議裡面比較敏感的部分，也請部長提醒。剛剛您講的，未來的這七艘，當然包含建造廠商造廠之後的成本在那裡，但因未來要連續造七艘，對於它的人力，對於已經建置下去的造廠設備，這些預算可能是會減少的，期程可能是會加速的。所以未來還有沒有需要另外再造其他的船廠，有沒有再造船廠的建置費用，或未來這些鋼材、設備，還有物調的空間等等，我們相信現在全世界幾乎沒有人可以判斷出未來這七艘潛艦預算到底會怎麼樣安排或配置。但是我們知道，這七艘可能要分成三艘、兩艘、三艘，還是一次七艘，都必須跟造船廠這邊再溝通，到底要怎麼樣做，才會比較適當，可能真的要等到新任總統上任之後，跟國防部及造船廠進行討論，才有辦法進行這些預算的編列，甚至緊急的時候必須要用臨時預算來處理，這些都需要預算法授予我們國防安全相關的空間。部長是不是可以說明在您可能即將卸任的最後，對這七艘潛艦一次建造，有什麼樣想法？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我剛才也講到一次跟一系列，這有很大差別的，我們講過很多事情不能模稜兩可，確定要做，那就有總目標；要怎麼做，這當中有很多要考慮的因素，包含我們剛剛講的，不管是廠房或物配料等等，都要納入考慮。可是剛剛委員講的這個，越建越多應該越便宜，這倒未必，為什麼？因為它第一……"],["李委員柏毅：我沒有講越來越便宜，我們是想像這個造船廠已經建置了。"],["邱部長國正：沒有錯，但是在它成長數量的過程，其他也都是逐步在成長的，這個我們不能輕忽掉……"],["李委員柏毅：原料也在成長。"],["邱部長國正：對，原料等等也在成長，就好像我們講人員的力量越來越大，越茁壯，但他吃飯也越來越多。"],["李委員柏毅：所以現在媒體寫的這些預算可能增加多少，其實都沒有辦法去評估。"],["邱部長國正：都沒有辦法預估，剛剛海軍也講了，我們也沒講固定多少錢，因為這部分在計畫當中還正在核算，但我有跟他們講，大概有一個百分比，我們可以調配出來，在船艦上大概百分比多少，在物料方面怎麼個算法，也在慢慢歸納；但要一口咬定多少錢，講真的，我講不出來。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝部長，感謝你在這幾年對國防部的帶領，我想在這邊表達，對於潛艦國造以及未來即將產生的八艘潛艦可以保衛臺灣，我們高度的支持，以及持續的關心，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員，我們持續努力。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請洪孟楷委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-13","speakers":["馬文君","林楚茵","黃仁","陳永康","羅美玲","王定宇","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","李柏毅","洪孟楷","羅智強","林憶君","王鴻薇","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢（含秘密會議）","agenda_id":"1133001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.4697187500000001,"end":2.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.46096875,"end":3.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.117843750000002,"end":20.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.770343750000002,"end":24.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.25909375,"end":28.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.364093750000002,"end":29.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.18659375,"end":34.337843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.62471875,"end":44.445968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.783468750000004,"end":49.643468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.369093750000005,"end":54.705968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.110968750000005,"end":61.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.299718750000004,"end":70.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.34471875,"end":73.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.26846875000001,"end":84.23721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.01346875,"end":86.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.03846875,"end":89.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.39659375000001,"end":99.66096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.20096875,"end":100.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.23034375,"end":104.53784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.58846875,"end":106.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.47409375000001,"end":113.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.92034375,"end":115.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.40534375,"end":117.53159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.20659375000001,"end":132.60096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.02284375000002,"end":137.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.25846875000002,"end":140.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.34221875,"end":142.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.13096875000002,"end":144.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.66221875000002,"end":146.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.65784375,"end":148.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.42534375,"end":150.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.41659375,"end":158.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.97659375,"end":159.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.01034375,"end":159.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.02721875,"end":160.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.07784375,"end":162.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.55846875,"end":162.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.35159375,"end":165.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.38534375,"end":163.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.39346875,"end":164.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.87846875000002,"end":226.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.32471875000002,"end":237.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.47096875000003,"end":235.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.07409375,"end":239.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.60971875,"end":266.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.79096875,"end":266.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.89221875000004,"end":266.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.90909375,"end":292.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.66034375000004,"end":298.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.97159375,"end":304.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.26596875,"end":308.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.02909375,"end":323.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.57534375,"end":332.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.12659375000004,"end":339.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.34909375,"end":342.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.66096875,"end":343.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.02784375000005,"end":369.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.66096875000005,"end":376.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.47409375,"end":395.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.91659375,"end":381.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.17596875000004,"end":399.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.14159375,"end":408.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.72659375,"end":430.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.14096875,"end":432.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.26721875000004,"end":446.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.30096875000004,"end":435.08534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.90721875,"end":443.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.83034375000005,"end":452.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.85909375000006,"end":457.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.58846875,"end":483.88784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.41534375000003,"end":497.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.64096875,"end":499.51409375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.563,"end":2.983,"text":"謝謝我們請邱部長請邱部長李委員好邱部長好你辛苦了剛剛參加了我們這個國防外交委員會對於潛艦國造建案沿革跟目前的進度建案沿革裡面有很清楚的把過去四位總統從李登輝總統"},{"start":30.228,"end":41.536,"text":"到陳水扁總統到馬英九總統到蔡英文總統這四任總統對於我們潛艦的相關不管是在2001年、2002年的時候的採購的進度或者是在2015、2016年的時候確定潛艦國造"},{"start":50.43,"end":68.56,"text":"或者是到2017年之後蔡英文政府開始編列相關潛艦國造的預算開始到目前為止一共在我們的海昆號裡面的預算的編列目前是達到490幾億"},{"start":71.577,"end":83.931,"text":"也就是說在剛才的秘密會議裡面我們所聽到的不管是接下來的港式或者是未來的這個海式"},{"start":85.051,"end":106.591,"text":"我們都還是很期待我們的潛艦國造第一艘的海昆號那可以在全世界的人的面前看到台灣有這個能力來製造潛艦甚至蔡英文總統之後賴清德總統也宣誓未來的"},{"start":108.361,"end":132.242,"text":"另外的7艘潛艦希望可以一次來建造這過程就有很多故事了剛才的秘密會議裡面我們看到很多媒體裡面所報導的跟秘密會議裡面讓我們知道的其實不盡然相同所以如果可以藉由這個機會那也可以請教部長目前的這些"},{"start":133.783,"end":147.487,"text":"進度以及方向上我想對於國人關心我們的潛艦國造以及潛艦到底什麼時候可以在台灣的四周真正的可以嚇阻我們的敵軍"},{"start":151.408,"end":157.714,"text":"謝謝委員提出的,抱歉抱歉在委員剛剛提的幾點,我第一個要說明,剛剛陳委員有跟我指導過,的確因為LIFE中有講要一次建完"},{"start":177.811,"end":199.662,"text":"一家伙要增加的容量各方面預算編列就成問題事實上剛剛陳委員指導很對一系列而且預算怎麼編列我們到目前並沒有一定要編成一個專案或者大入年度但剛剛我們聽取各方意見尤其這也要為了保持彈性"},{"start":200.282,"end":200.802,"text":"﹚李柏毅委員﹚李柏毅委員"},{"start":226.46,"end":246.568,"text":"所以這個逐年成長的,哪怕是八二燒通到定位了,到定位以後,剛才也有講到舊的慢慢叫替換嘛,或者再增加的量。都四十年以上了,對啊。對,這個戰力的儲存六十年多的啦,就你越多資源儲存在那邊越好嘛。"},{"start":247.208,"end":265.642,"text":"當然加上你儲存有沒有人力去維護那也不行所以就會找到一個平衡點讓人員也可以維護他戰力也可以發揮不會形成浪費畢竟來自全國人民的納稅錢我們不會平白無故去亂花亂用"},{"start":267.263,"end":291.501,"text":"謝謝部長其實我們也在這個過程裡面跟我們國人很清楚的說明潛艦國造以及潛艦未來可以怎麼樣來保衛我們台灣的安全的這個重要性我想也經過大部分人的接受接下來我們確實要面對的是這七艘怎麼造那我如果講到機密會議裡面可能比較敏感的部分那請部長提醒"},{"start":292.942,"end":310.328,"text":"剛剛您講的這未來的7艘當然包含這個我們建造廠商他有他要造廠的他有在造廠裡面已經造廠之後的成本在那裡了當然這個成本造下去了他未來連續要造7艘對於他的人力也好"},{"start":310.928,"end":339.136,"text":"那對於他的現在已經造廠的設備已經建置下去也好其實在未來的7艘裡面可能這些預算都是會減少的可能這些騎乘都是會加速的所以到底在未來這一個他還有有沒有需要在另外在做這其他的船廠有沒有在做船廠的這個建置的費用或者是未來可能這些鋼材等等這些設備他還有物調的空間等等確實"},{"start":340.376,"end":369.267,"text":"我相信現在全世界也幾乎沒有人可以判斷出未來這七艘潛艦預算到底會怎麼樣安排或配置但是我們可以知道的這七艘可能要分成三艘兩艘三艘還是說一次七艘可能必須要跟造船這一邊要再溝通到底是怎麼樣做才會比較適當可能要真的等到我們新任總統上任之後"},{"start":369.887,"end":376.323,"text":"那跟國防部以及造船廠相關的這些討論才有辦法進行這些預算的編列甚至"},{"start":378.043,"end":381.925,"text":"我跟委員報告,除了剛才我有講到一次跟一系列這有很大差別的"},{"start":405.576,"end":429.765,"text":"我們有很多事情不是莫寧兩可確定要做那就是總目標但怎麼做是當中有很多要考慮的因素包含我們剛剛講的不管是廠房啊或是物配料啊等等都要那種考慮可是剛剛委員講的這個越建越多應該越越便宜這倒未必為什麼就像講一個人他力量"},{"start":430.205,"end":445.564,"text":"我沒有講越來越便宜,我們是想像這個造船廠它已經建制了沒有錯,但是在它成長數量的過程其他的也是逐步在成長的這我不能輕忽掉原料等等也在成長就好像講說這個"},{"start":447.066,"end":474.319,"text":"人員他的力量對不對他越來越大越茁壯但他吃飯也越來越多所以現在媒體上面寫出來的這些預算可能增加多少其實都是沒有辦法去評估的剛剛海軍也講了我們也沒講固定多少錢因為這在一個在計畫當中正在核算但我有跟他們講大概一個百分比我們可以調配出來在這個船艦上大概百分比多少然後在這個物料方面"},{"start":475.339,"end":475.619,"text":"謝謝委員我們持續努力"}]}},{"id":"151309","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151309","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016271f5071b9de01f66f0915613d02a5e1dcc5dab72e655c1c94b17bc107fd8b3f6e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:41:08 - 12:45:51","影片長度":"00:04:43","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（4月17日及18日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":283,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:45:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:41:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":876,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時41分）謝謝主席，有請潘部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長辛苦了，午安。今天討論一下學校退場條例跟技職教育的一些問題，第一個，現在私校退場基本上就是針對營運不善的學校嘛。"],["潘部長文忠：因為它有幾個指標。"],["牛委員煦庭：為了避免它影響教育品質嘛，對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以由政府介入的角度來要求它退場，但本席有接到一些陳情啦，當然就在這個地方跟部長做個討論。現在私校解散清算之後的財產歸屬好像只能捐贈所謂的退場基金嘛，要不然就是捐給中央機關或公立學校，等於就充公的概念。有一種說法是這樣，其實當初大家都是為了興學，私人興學其實有它們的理想性，有些學校營運不善當然應該退場，這本席完全同意，但是有些私立學校也許營運得不錯，它會希望透過整併或擴大的方式來處理，所以有沒有可能在財產歸屬的部分也開放私立學校的學校法人變成捐贈對象？對於這樣的說法，我想先聽一聽教育部的意見。"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，當時退場條例在上一屆大院委員會這邊充分討論，為了這個歸屬的問題，當時最後決議了還是以歸公……"],["牛委員煦庭：還是以歸公為主。"],["潘部長文忠：目前這是在法規所設的，因為當時如委員剛才所提的，也有很多不同學校提出各種不同的想法，但是條例定下來是歸公。"],["牛委員煦庭：我同意你們現在依法行政，這沒有問題。那我要問政策方向，因為現在按照你的報告來講，真的走到這個退場條例而且把它走完的學校其實很少，對不對？而且滿多在中間就卡那個地方，其實對於教育品質影響是很大的！所以這一部分看教育部是不是會後來努力？因為前面有一個討論的……"],["潘部長文忠：我這樣講，如果不是進到退場，因為退場後疑義就多了。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，退場後爭議多嘛。"],["潘部長文忠：如果在過程當中，其實現在很多私校彼此之間去做，本身依法是可行的，但是不能進到……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你希望不要走到退場的階段再來做這件事情。"],["潘部長文忠：對！所以它應該提前去思考這個問題。"],["牛委員煦庭：我希望教育部用一個開放的心態思考，主要以加快退場的速度啦！因為我們現在很擔心，有些學校一直卡在退場這個階段就沒有辦法前進，那對學生也好、教師作為受僱者的勞工權益也受到影響，這都不是件好事，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果你有一個輔導的機制可以預警或其他等等，讓它早一點處理完這個事情，可以處理掉這個事情當然很好；但如果不行的話，是不是再做一些思考跟討論？"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：這是第一個問題。第二個問題是，很多私校走的是技職體系，本席滿關心技職體系的發展，特別是有關產學合作的這個部分，現行技術及職業教育法第九條第二項只有規定讓職涯的認識跟探索列入國小跟國中的課綱，就是知道有這條路存在，高中最多只是安排到企業跟產業參訪，要求宣導說明活動，但我們有發現，如果你真的走了技職這一條路的話，根據專科以上學校產學合作實施辦法，就可以辦理產學合作或是校外實習，那當然就要簽所謂的契約，原則上要符合勞基法的規定，對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：這是產學合作的一個遊戲規則，但本席有點擔心啦，希望教育部先做一個資料的蒐集，在現行的規定下，保障學生權益的規範可能是不太足夠的。比如專科以上學校產學合作實施辦法第六條之一第一項第六款有講實習期滿前有一個解除的條件跟程序去處理這件事情，可是針對產學合作，萬一中間出了一些狀況、出現一些爭端的時候，它其實在後端是沒有這樣子的一個解除的程序，所以我要求針對這個東西，針對產學合作的部分做一個檢討，看看有沒有哪些地方，也許是工時，也許是爭端處理的一些機制，有沒有哪些部分應該要優於勞動基準法的一些條件，讓學生在產學合作的過程中被充分地保護，也讓他們充分地具有勞工意識，我想這是有助於技職體系順利落地滿重要的一件事情，所以這兩件事情希望教育部會後提供一些資料，好不好？讓我們作後續的研究跟討論。"],["潘部長文忠：好，我對委員有一個請求。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。"],["潘部長文忠：委員剛才講到的建教合作、實習等等，有一些反映的意見，如果委員方便，也可以給我們參考一下。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，我今天的這份資料，同樣用書面的方式發給你，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：對，我們這樣做一些檢視會比較聚焦。"],["牛委員煦庭：這樣就會非常清楚，兩個題目，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：OK。"],["牛委員煦庭：那就麻煩教育部提供資料，謝謝你。"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。剛剛牛煦庭委員也提出他的書面報告了。","接下來我們請廖偉翔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-8","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","吳春城","范雲","張嘉郡","羅智強","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","廖偉翔","莊瑞雄","劉建國","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.494093750000001,"end":7.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.012843750000002,"end":9.059093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.012218750000002,"end":23.925968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.41971875,"end":23.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.925968750000003,"end":24.465968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.465968750000002,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.36971875,"end":102.59721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.21971875,"end":89.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.54721875,"end":99.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.98971875000001,"end":122.37471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.20221875000001,"end":120.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.67034375,"end":141.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.20096875,"end":128.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.45284375,"end":139.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.24096875,"end":263.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.36534375000002,"end":156.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.04034375,"end":156.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.66346875000002,"end":164.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.03659375,"end":207.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.86346875000004,"end":276.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.82409375000003,"end":277.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.74284375,"end":278.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.45159375000003,"end":278.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.73846875000004,"end":283.96971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.722,"end":9.025,"text":"謝謝主席 潘部長有請好 請部長委員好部長辛苦了 午安今天討論一下學校退場條例跟即時教育的一些問題現在私校退場基本上就是針對營運不善的學校因為它有幾個指標為了避免它影響教育品質"},{"start":27.262,"end":47.819,"text":"所以說由政府介入的角度來要求他來做退場但這本席有接到一些陳情當然就在這個地方來跟部長做個討論就是說現在私校解散清篡之後的這個財產歸屬好像只能捐贈所謂的退場基金要不然就是捐給中央機關或公立學校等於就是充公的一個概念那有一種說法是這樣就是說"},{"start":49,"end":72.701,"text":"其實當初大家都是為了興學那私人興學其實他們有他們的理想性那有些學校營運不善當然應該退場這本席完全同意但是有些私立學校也許營運得不錯然後他會希望說我透過整併或擴大的方式來處理所以說有沒有可能就是說在這個財產歸屬的部分也開放所謂的私立學校的學校法人變成一個捐贈的一個對象要這樣的一個說法我想先聽一聽教育部的意見"},{"start":73.647,"end":101.102,"text":"我跟委員報告因為這個當時退場條例在我們上一屆大院這邊委員會是大家充分的討論為了這個就歸屬的問題當時最後決議了就是還是以歸功還是以歸功為主那目前這是在法規所設的因為當時這些如委員剛才所提的也有很多不同的學校也有提出各種不同的想法但是條例定下來是歸功"},{"start":102.062,"end":127.839,"text":"我同意你們現在依法行政這沒有問題但我要問政策方向因為現在按照你的報告來講真的走到這個所謂的退場條例然後把走完的學校其實很少對不對而且蠻多其實在中間就卡在那個地方那其實對於教育品質的影響是很大的所以說這一部分看教育部是不是會後來因為他你前面有一個討論的我現在講如果不是進到退場啦也就是說因為退場後一億就多了對退場後就增多嘛"},{"start":128.88,"end":134.222,"text":"所以他應該提前去思考這個問題我希望教育部用一個開放的心態思考主要以加快退場的速度因為我們現在就很擔心就是說有些學校一直卡在退場這個階段然後他就沒有辦法前進學生也好教師作為受僱者其實勞工權也受到影響這都不是件好事"},{"start":156.37,"end":173.695,"text":"所以如果你有一個輔導的機制可以讓他預警或怎麼樣讓他早一點處理完這個事可以處理一下這事情當然很好但如果不行的話是不是可以再做一些思考跟討論這是第一個問題第二個問題是很多私校走的是技職體系那北京一般關心技職體系的一個發展特別是有關於產學合作的這一個部分"},{"start":174.876,"end":189.312,"text":"現行這個技術及職業教育法9條2項只有規定就是說讓職涯的認識跟探索列入這個國小跟國中的課綱就是知道有這條路存在那高中只是說安排最多到安排企業參訪跟這個產業參訪要求宣導說明活動"},{"start":193.416,"end":206.391,"text":"但我們有發現那到了你如果真的走了技職這一條路的話根據專科以上學校產學合作事實辦法就可以辦理產學合作或者是校外實習那當然就要簽所謂的契約原則上要符合勞基法的規定嘛對不對這是產學合作的一個遊戲規則啦"},{"start":208.413,"end":224.015,"text":"但本期有點擔心啦希望教育部先做一個資料的一個收集就是說在現行的規定下保障學生權益的規範可能是不太足夠的比如說這個專科以上學校產學合作實施辦法六條一項六條之一一項六款有講"},{"start":225.557,"end":238.225,"text":"實習起碼你有一個解除的條件跟程序去處理這種事情可是針對產學合作萬一中間出了一些狀況出現一些爭端的時候它其實在後端是沒有這樣子的一個解除的一個程序的所以我要求針對這個東西針對產學合作的部分"},{"start":240.726,"end":241.707,"text":"我跟委員一個請求若委員有"},{"start":264.468,"end":264.508,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151308","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151308","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016272104769af6f934310915613d02a5e1dcc5dab72e655c1c944c70deecae8ed2e75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"12:34:34 - 12:41:03","影片長度":"00:06:29","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（4月17日及18日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":389,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:41:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:34:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":818,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（12時34分）謝謝主席，本席請潘部長。"],["主席：好，部長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。您知道本席是哪一個縣市的委員嗎？哪一個區域選出來的？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，您是苗栗還是新竹？抱歉！"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，新竹縣。"],["潘部長文忠：新竹，是！"],["徐委員欣瑩：為什麼要特別問這個問題呢？因為我看到教育委員會常常在談少子化問題的各種因應措施，本席要特別跟部長還有教育部的同仁說明，我們新竹縣有別於臺灣的其他縣市，您知道嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：我瞭解。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對！我們的新生兒不斷、不斷地出生，雖然六都的人口都比我們多，但是我們的粗出生率是全國前三名，一直都是如此，而且這個已經十幾年了！除了這個以外，我們的人口增加率也是全國前三名；更重要的，您猜看看新竹縣的平均年齡是幾歲？我們新竹縣有很多農業的鄉鎮，其實照理講應該人口老化，但是我們新竹縣的人口平均年齡幾歲，您猜看看！"],["潘部長文忠：委員請指教。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那您居住在哪個縣市？臺北？"],["潘部長文忠：我在新北。"],["徐委員欣瑩：新北市平均年齡多少？"],["潘部長文忠：我沒有研究。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們新竹縣是39歲，很年輕！為什麼人口不多而且很多農業鄉鎮，我們的平均年齡還這麼低？就是因為我們一、兩歲的人非常多，年輕人非常多、嬰幼兒非常多、青少年非常多。本席講這麼多就是要讓部長瞭解，你看現在少子化，我們這邊為國家增產報國、生了那麼多人，有關他們的教育品質、教育資源，教育部應該要特別專案給多一點！"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，因為我們看到這個趨勢特別，所以也有個專案，就是針對人口逆勢成長區域有一個叫做新興區域的，因此對於國中、國小的部分，委員知道教育部是專案……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我知道，我從政20年就在那裡。"],["潘部長文忠：接續就是對高中的部分，因為這個一定要幫助地方政府……"],["徐委員欣瑩：從國小、國中到高中，我們都缺學校、缺資源、缺量體！"],["潘部長文忠：委員，因為少子化大家覺得怎麼還有這種專案，但就是因為人口成長，所以我們就用專案去幫助新竹縣。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒錯，所以新竹縣的教育經費投入從107年的101.66億，到今年已經是153.76億，整體成長非常多，也占了總預算快要50%、百分之四十幾。所以本席在這裡要請命，中央對於我們新竹縣高中規劃的經費需求是不是能夠大量投入、給予資源？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告……"],["徐委員欣瑩：請秀出我們的需求表。"],["潘部長文忠：國、中小以外，接下來就是接續要進入高中了，所以教育部也為這個專案提了一個公建計畫，會配合竹竹苗的大矽谷計畫。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這邊是需求表，部長是不是可以承諾給予我們這些所需的經費？至少……"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個部分我們要跟新竹縣一起討論。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個就是縣政府希望我來講的！"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，因為高中不像國中、小是那麼明確的學區制。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我知道。"],["潘部長文忠：設立應該要有一個比較大範圍的規劃，所以不是單一縣市。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，那您可以承諾會專案特別給我們資源，這沒有問題嘛？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，現在提公建計畫就是要協助這個專案，至於應該要怎麼規劃，應該要有一個區域的概念。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不好意思，主席再給我一點點時間。","第二題，現在國中教育會考全國有15個學區，對不對？你看採三級積分制的目前只剩下7個學區，其他學區都有不同的積分制。本席很快地講，新竹縣採三級積分制，如果1A4B的考生會優先於5B10+的考生，那以分數來看，就變成58分的考生優先於79分的入學，這個公平嗎？部長，請你回答這個問題。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，因為幾級制的積分是在各就學區……"],["徐委員欣瑩：是由他們來決定，我知道你會這樣講。"],["潘部長文忠：不是！事實也這樣，因為學區之間有差異。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，剛剛那個不公平嘛，對不對？部長也覺得不公平嘛。"],["潘部長文忠：詳細數字我可能要檢核一下才知道。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有！我那個數字沒有騙你呀，就是58分比79分先入學嘛。這樣地不公平，那你給各區都有這個權責，可是我們新竹縣一直覺得這個三級積分制要改掉，改不掉怎麼辦？因為我們是竹竹苗一個學區，教育部是不是可以來協助？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，因為就學區跨了好幾個單位、好幾個區域，他們一定要討論。"],["徐委員欣瑩：就3個呀，我們就竹竹苗。"],["潘部長文忠：如果連這個區域內都不能形成一個共識……"],["徐委員欣瑩：那你們出來協調嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：委員，那未必會有好效果。"],["徐委員欣瑩：就像三個小孩有意見的時候父母下來協調一下，看是不是可以協助？"],["潘部長文忠：我們從旁把這個訊息提供給他們。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席今天有提案，不知道是不是太晚送？明天可以處理！所以拜託部長，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，我們從旁協助，但我認為不宜直接主導。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，從旁協助也可以，來協助我們，拜託、拜託！"],["潘部長文忠：否則他們又有另外一個意見，變成好像全國都是教育部的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，新竹縣政府也希望我們能改掉！"],["潘部長文忠：我們從旁協助啦。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝徐委員。","接下來鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員。","牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-8","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","吳春城","范雲","張嘉郡","羅智強","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","廖偉翔","莊瑞雄","劉建國","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.26659375,"end":4.469093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.50284375,"end":8.181593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.83159375,"end":6.865343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.864718750000002,"end":11.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.42159375,"end":14.594093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.015968750000003,"end":17.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.867843750000002,"end":17.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.90159375,"end":19.605968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.605968750000002,"end":44.580968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.293468750000002,"end":21.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.614093750000002,"end":22.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.87221875,"end":44.867843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.867843750000006,"end":71.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.34034375,"end":82.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.56221875,"end":90.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.89971875,"end":83.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.27096875000001,"end":84.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.91971875,"end":92.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.15596875,"end":92.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.47221875000001,"end":100.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.33159375000001,"end":102.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.49159375,"end":125.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.51846875000001,"end":120.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.93534375,"end":133.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.79909375,"end":156.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.00159375,"end":134.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.26284375,"end":136.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.39346875,"end":137.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.48596875,"end":139.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.27346875,"end":153.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.69034375,"end":162.09846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.63471875000002,"end":170.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.21534375000002,"end":203.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.56096875,"end":199.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.41721875000002,"end":214.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.80034375000002,"end":207.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.08221875,"end":212.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.22971875000002,"end":215.65971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.44034375,"end":215.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.65971875000002,"end":215.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.79471875000002,"end":225.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.27846875,"end":225.32909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.32909375000003,"end":226.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.49784375000002,"end":229.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.87284375000002,"end":229.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.17659375000002,"end":229.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.22721875000002,"end":243.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.36221875,"end":230.10471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.40846875000003,"end":232.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.62284375000002,"end":236.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.41534375,"end":241.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.96784375000001,"end":244.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.66784375,"end":295.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.93346875,"end":250.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.19409375,"end":253.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.03971875,"end":300.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.15284375000005,"end":303.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.92909375,"end":300.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.08096875,"end":308.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.64971875000003,"end":311.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.02471875000003,"end":311.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.96534375000005,"end":312.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.03284375000004,"end":337.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.07909375,"end":313.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.27471875000003,"end":330.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.61221875,"end":330.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.44659375000003,"end":353.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.77909375,"end":345.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.17034375000003,"end":350.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.57096875,"end":358.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.65034375000005,"end":360.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.12659375000004,"end":367.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.82596875,"end":370.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.54284375000003,"end":373.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.77471875000003,"end":372.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.37784375,"end":373.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.42409375,"end":389.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.50409375000004,"end":374.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.48284375000003,"end":376.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.74409375000005,"end":378.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.28784375000004,"end":381.77721875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.937,"end":8.159,"text":"謝謝主席本席請潘部長好部長謝謝委員好部長好您知道本席是哪一個縣市的委員嗎哪一個區域選出來的委員您是馬里亞新竹嗎沒關係新竹縣為什麼要特別問這個問題呢因為我看到"},{"start":26.206,"end":42.954,"text":"我們這個教育委員會常常在談因為少子化少子化的問題各種因應的措施但本席要特別的來跟部長還有我們教育部的同仁來說明我們新竹縣是有別於台灣的其他縣市"},{"start":44.014,"end":61.031,"text":"我了解對 我們都不斷的新生兒不斷不斷的這個出生我們雖然六都的人口都比我們多但是我們的出生率出出生率是全國前三名一直都是如此而且這個已經是十幾年了"},{"start":62.973,"end":90.234,"text":"除了這個以外我們的人口增加率也是全國前三名更重要的您猜看看新竹縣的平均年齡是幾歲我們新竹縣有很多農業的鄉鎮其實照理應該人口老化但是我們新竹縣的人口平均年齡幾歲您猜看看委員請指教那您居住在哪個縣市我在新北新北市平均年齡多少"},{"start":91.107,"end":91.327,"text":"徐欣瑩徐欣瑩"},{"start":106.999,"end":133.357,"text":"這個一兩歲的人非常多年輕人非常多嬰幼兒非常多青少年非常多那本席講這麼多就是要讓部長瞭解所以我們教育的資源你看少子化那我們這邊為國家征產報國生了那麼多人那他們的教育的品質教育的資源我們教育部應該要特別專案給多一點"},{"start":133.877,"end":139.119,"text":"徐欣瑩報告新竹縣幫忙楊縣長之前因為我們就看到這個趨勢特別所以也有一個專案就是針對人口逆勢成長的區域有一個叫做新興區域的所以對於國中國小的部分我也知道這個教育部是專案那邊就是我從政20年就在那繼續就是最高中的部分因為這個一定要幫助地方政府從國小國中到高中我們都缺學校缺資源缺量體"},{"start":161.849,"end":162.829,"text":"所以本席在這裡要請命我們中央對於"},{"start":191.756,"end":201.784,"text":"我們新竹縣高中規劃我們經費的需求是不是能夠大量的投入給予資源請秀出我們的需求表請部長是不是可以承諾"},{"start":221.278,"end":222.479,"text":"您可以承諾會"},{"start":244.77,"end":248.952,"text":"主席再給我一點點時間我第二題就是我們現在國中教育會考全國有15個學區對不對15個學區那你看採三級積分制的目前只剩下7個學區"},{"start":269.721,"end":269.761,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":293.348,"end":304.234,"text":"部長請你回答這個問題這個因為各級制的積分是在各就學區是由他們來決定我知道你會這樣講事實也這樣你不能說我要下因為學期之間他們有差異那剛剛那個不公平嘛對不對我可能要檢核一下才知道"},{"start":313.68,"end":329.956,"text":"我那數字沒有騙你就是58分比79分先入學所以我們希望教育部你這樣不公平那你給各區都有他的這個權責可是我們新竹縣一直覺得這個三級積分制要改掉"},{"start":330.797,"end":330.837,"text":"徐欣瑩"},{"start":350.083,"end":374.736,"text":"那你們出來協調嘛就像三個小孩有意見的時候父母下來協調一下看是不是可以協助我們來從旁把這個訊息跟他們提供本席今天有提案不知道是不是太晚送還是什麼我明天可以審明天可以處理所以拜託部長好不好我們從旁協助但是要直接主導我認為對對對從旁協助也可以來協助我們拜託拜託我覺得他們又另外一個意見了沒有沒有新竹縣政府"},{"start":377.957,"end":378.538,"text":"中嘉賓委員 中嘉賓委員 中嘉賓"}]}},{"id":"151307","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151307","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f0162709707530a9bb0b2ecf744a9f110b3b1fc5dab72e655c1c94766d831f399ea9335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:32:04 - 12:40:05","影片長度":"00:08:01","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":481,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:40:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:32:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":962,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時32分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請財政部部長"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["黃委員國昌：以及彰化銀行凌董事長。"],["主席：請凌董事長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：兩位好。延續上一次質詢的重點，財政收支劃分法針對垂直分配的問題，也就是中央統籌分配款在分配的內容比例上面，我們朝著不管是國民黨執政，還是民進黨執政，在野黨都說要改，那民進黨上一次，我們的準總統賴清德先生擔任行政院院長的時候，他也說要改，結果雷聲大雨點小，到現在毫無動靜。也正是因為這個樣子，我在上一次請部長針對各種不同版本，試算的結果提報告給我。我在前兩天看到了你們的報告，報告寫說：「中央政府債務負擔仍屬沉重」。","我看到這個結論，真的是非常的驚訝，為什麼說非常的驚訝？我們往回看即將卸任的總統蔡英文，蔡總統說很少看到有國家的財務結構竟然是這麼健康的。當然這是民主進步黨執政總統做這樣的宣稱。部長您作為政務官，您之前也跟整個台灣社會說，中央政府債務狀況事實上是非常好的。唉奇怪了，怎麼討論到有關於財政收支劃分的時候，馬上180度急轉彎，中央政府的債務負擔仍屬沉重。所以我的問題很簡單，部長，我們中央政府的財務狀況，我們的債務到底是好，還是不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，中央政府目前債務的債務比跟世界其他國家來比其實是低的，因為我們目前實際的債務比是25.4。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是好的嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，但是我們仍然認為，國家在處理財政的時候，譬如說歲入如果比預算執行得好，而且歲出能夠有盈餘的話，我們都會優先去還債……"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，我先請教一下部長，按照您當財政部部長的規劃，債務負擔大概要降到百分比多少以下，才有條件來處理有關於統籌分配款的分配？依照您的標準就好了。"],["莊部長翠雲：標準不是這樣子，因為債務的部分，其實要看整個政府要施政的部分，譬如說你要做前瞻基礎建設，譬如說舉債，或者是說……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你的意思是說，因為有前瞻基礎建設，所以有關於財政收支劃分的部分沒有辦法處理嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是因為這樣，事實上……"],["黃委員國昌：那是因為怎麼樣，你就講清楚嘛。所以我就問你嘛，你前後態度不一致嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有不一致。"],["黃委員國昌：當人家質疑中央政府債務高的時候，就出面講債務狀況非常好啊，結果現在要討論到統籌分配款的分配的時候，財務狀況又變得不好啦！是什麼？看什麼事情，風往哪邊吹，看什麼事情轉來轉去，轉來轉去喔？我也不跟你爭執，按照你的標準到底是好還不好？按照你的標準，到底要到什麼時候，財政收支劃分法才到可以去討論垂直分配的時間，要改善到什麼時候才能開始討論？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，財政收支劃分法有水平的、有垂直的，那目前來說我們要優先……"],["黃委員國昌：我就是不要你混淆視聽，所以我現在就要跟你處理垂直分配的問題嘛。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們會先處理這個分配的部分，因為分配的部分涉及到各地方政府分配，要怎麼樣去做到分配的一個合理化更重要……"],["黃委員國昌：請你先停一下好不好？我現在在跟你講垂直分配的事情，你要繼續去扯水平分配的事情。"],["莊部長翠雲：那垂直分配跟水平分配，是有相關聯的。"],["黃委員國昌：我現在先請教一件事啦，目前財政收支劃分法，依照您的標準，垂直分配有沒有需要改善？"],["莊部長翠雲：垂直分配要改善的部分，事實上在立法幾個原則裡面都提到了，我們會保障……"],["黃委員國昌：所以要改善嘛，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們當然會去考慮這個部分，一併會去考慮的。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以垂直分配的部分要改善嘛，要如何改善？我的問題就是這樣啊。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你整份報告沒有回答這個問題啊，你整份報告鬼打牆啊，180度自打臉啊，說中央政府債務負擔仍屬沉重。來，我們來看一下，當初我們的準總統賴清德，他在當臺南市市長的時候，跟著蘇貞昌出來呼籲中央統籌分配款要改善。那個時候中央政府長期債務的比例是多少？36%，按照您今天所說的我們有改善，改善到27%。我現在就完全聽不懂邏輯了，以前國民黨在朝民進黨在野，長期債務比例是36%，他們認為統籌分配款給地方的太少要改。結果現在按照你們自己的數字哦，改善到27點多了，你給大家的報告竟然說中央政府的債務非常地沉重，討論要謹慎，這什麼邏輯啊？這已經讓人不知道怎麼評論了，這什麼邏輯啊！36的時候要改善，要多給地方統籌分配款，現在27的時候，中央政府債務負擔的比例非常地沉重，所以我們財政收支劃分法討論垂直分配的時候要審慎，有這種邏輯嗎？有這種邏輯嗎？"],["主席：黃委員，時間超過了。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，我們寫的是事實的呈現目前的債務比例，當然我們希望債務比例更能夠往下降，我想這個是中央在財政上都必須……讓我們的財政韌性根足，但是未來在垂直分配的時候，一樣是可以考慮地方的一些需求。"],["黃委員國昌：所以呢？現在的立法，你們的規劃方向是什麼？一樣嘛，是一片空洞，是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，我剛剛跟委員報告，我們要先解決分配的問題……"],["黃委員國昌：對啊，我現在就在跟你處理垂直分配的問題啊。"],["莊部長翠雲：我是說水平的分配應該要先做。"],["黃委員國昌：所以嘛，你要繼續拿水平分配的問題來混淆視聽嘛，不願意正式地去面對垂直分配的問題嘛。我為什麼要垂直分配、水平分配一個一個跟你談清楚，理由就在這裡嘛，你到現在都還在鬼打牆！"],["主席：部長，你會後再補充資料說明好不好？","黃委員，你時間已經超過很久了。"],["黃委員國昌：OK，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員的資詢，接著我們請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-8","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","王世堅","顏寬恒","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","羅明才","林楚茵","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","吳春城","陳亭妃","王定宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就\n「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.6722187500000001,"end":3.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.48596875,"end":8.282843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.570343750000001,"end":4.941593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.485343750000002,"end":9.227843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.551593750000002,"end":17.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.203468750000003,"end":30.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.840343750000002,"end":33.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.10159375,"end":35.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.62034375,"end":37.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.74659375,"end":40.564718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.05409375,"end":41.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.99909375,"end":43.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.737218750000004,"end":46.454093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.892843750000004,"end":47.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.462218750000005,"end":49.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.12034375,"end":50.031593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.689718750000004,"end":51.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.735968750000005,"end":53.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.65971875,"end":54.45284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.807218750000004,"end":55.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.32596875,"end":62.721593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.89034375000001,"end":63.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.29096875,"end":68.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.23534375,"end":78.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.58409375000001,"end":81.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.14471875000001,"end":85.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.12721875000001,"end":88.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.69221875000001,"end":92.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.40034375,"end":96.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.21409375,"end":100.94346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.92221875000001,"end":107.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.03096875,"end":111.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.60846875,"end":112.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.95846875000001,"end":113.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.80221875000001,"end":116.35034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.41784375,"end":117.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.66659375,"end":120.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.12596875000001,"end":132.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.76971875,"end":133.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.60909375,"end":135.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.80284375000002,"end":139.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.16096875,"end":150.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.80909375000002,"end":155.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.66471875000002,"end":184.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.81909375,"end":168.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.03659375,"end":180.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.07034375,"end":181.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.21346875,"end":186.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.44909375,"end":187.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.79909375000003,"end":190.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.65096875,"end":202.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.07096875000002,"end":214.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.09034375000002,"end":221.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.14096875,"end":214.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.73159375,"end":214.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.79909375000003,"end":214.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.20409375000003,"end":215.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.38034375,"end":221.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.43096875,"end":223.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.20284375000003,"end":233.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.76659375000003,"end":235.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.97721875000002,"end":241.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.76096875000002,"end":244.29659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.90409375000002,"end":252.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.37971875000002,"end":253.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.11784375000002,"end":255.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.22721875,"end":257.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.59409375,"end":259.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.42909375,"end":262.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.75346875,"end":266.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.31409375000004,"end":288.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.52409375,"end":278.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.67409375,"end":285.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.85971875,"end":287.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.15471875000003,"end":289.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.04471875,"end":294.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.90471875000003,"end":299.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.91659375,"end":301.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.26221875000005,"end":306.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.97034375000004,"end":308.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.94471875,"end":321.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.20534375,"end":316.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.19596875,"end":321.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.92159375,"end":325.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.76909375,"end":327.25409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.25409375000004,"end":327.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.52409375,"end":330.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.20721875000004,"end":334.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.67909375000005,"end":337.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.44221875,"end":338.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.94846875,"end":340.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.17596875000004,"end":341.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.50909375000003,"end":344.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.71971875,"end":346.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.55471875,"end":349.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.20409375,"end":353.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.30909375000005,"end":354.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.30471875,"end":358.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.40534375000004,"end":359.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.17721875,"end":363.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.38346875,"end":364.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.30721875,"end":367.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.04096875000005,"end":368.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.08721875000003,"end":371.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.42846875000004,"end":375.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.49971875,"end":376.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.83284375000005,"end":379.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.83659375,"end":382.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.09346875,"end":385.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.89471875000004,"end":390.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.90659375,"end":392.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.56034375,"end":392.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.59409375,"end":394.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.74596875000003,"end":392.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.89784375000005,"end":393.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.58534375000005,"end":394.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.78784375000004,"end":394.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.85534375000003,"end":397.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.48784375,"end":398.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.04034375000003,"end":400.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.30159375000005,"end":402.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.80346875000004,"end":403.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.86659375000005,"end":418.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.04971875,"end":420.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.97784375000003,"end":421.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.48409375,"end":442.18971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.20971875000004,"end":422.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.99971875000006,"end":449.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.17596875000004,"end":449.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.20971875000004,"end":453.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.74909375000004,"end":455.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.03159375,"end":456.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.88784375,"end":458.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.03534375000004,"end":467.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.95784375000005,"end":473.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.21846875000006,"end":476.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.85971875,"end":476.39534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.28534375000004,"end":480.58034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.50034375,"end":479.73659375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.25,"end":16.905,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩有請財政部部長以及彰化銀行董事長林董事長林董事長委員好"},{"start":30.413,"end":49.44,"text":"兩位好喔延續上一期執行的重點財政收支判分法針對垂直分配的問題也就是中央統籌分配款在分配的內容比例上面我們朝著不管是國民黨"},{"start":50.76,"end":68.008,"text":"指正還是民進黨指正在野黨都說要改那民進黨上一次我們的準總統賴清德先生當任行政院院長的時候他也說要改結果人聲大雨點小到現在還無動靜"},{"start":69.289,"end":85.078,"text":"也正是因為這個樣子我在上一次的時候請部長針對各種不同版本試算的結果提報告給我提報告給我那我在前兩天啊看到了你們的報告啊"},{"start":86.175,"end":107.049,"text":"你們的報告寫說中央政府債務負擔人數沉重我看到這個結論我真的是非常的驚訝我為什麼說非常的驚訝我們往回看我們的即將卸任的總統蔡英文蔡總統說很少"},{"start":108.072,"end":134.79,"text":"看到有國家的財務結構竟然是這麼健康的當然這個是民主進步黨的執政總統做這樣的宣稱部長您作為政務官您之前也跟整個台灣社會說中央政府債務狀況事實上是非常好的奇怪了怎麼討論到"},{"start":136.897,"end":150.208,"text":"有關於財政收支劃分的時候這個馬上180度急轉彎中央政府的債務負擔人數沉重所以我的問題很簡單部長我們中央政府的財務狀況我們的債務到底是好還是不好"},{"start":156.721,"end":183.75,"text":"跟委員報告中央政府目前他的債務的債務比來說跟世界其他國家來說我們其實是低的因為我們目前實際的債務比是20所以是好的嗎對但是我們仍然認為國家我們在處理我們這個財政的時候比如說我們的稅率如果比預算執行的好而且稅出能夠而且有盈餘的話我們都會優先去還債我先請教一下部長"},{"start":186.491,"end":202.461,"text":"按照您當財政部部長的規劃我們的債務負擔大概要降到百分比多少以下才有條件來處理有關於統籌分配管的分配依照您的標準就好了"},{"start":203.401,"end":208.484,"text":"所以你的意思是說因為我們有前章基礎建設所以有關於財政收支劃分的部分沒有辦法處理嗎那是因為怎麼樣你就講清楚嘛所以我就問你嘛"},{"start":227.233,"end":241.363,"text":"你前後態度不一致嘛當人家質疑中央政府債務高的時候就出面講我們的債務狀況非常好啊結果現在要討論到統籌分配管流分配的時候財務狀況又變得不好啦"},{"start":242.833,"end":265.79,"text":"是什麼?看什麼事情?方往哪邊吹?看什麼事情轉來轉去轉來轉去喔?那我也不跟你爭持按照你的標準到底是好還不好?按照你的標準到底要到什麼時候?要到什麼時候?財政收支劃分法才到可以去討論隨時分配的時間?要改善到什麼時候才能開始討論?"},{"start":267.338,"end":268.259,"text":"請你先停一下好不好"},{"start":290.174,"end":298.491,"text":"我現在跟你講垂直分配的事情你要繼續扯水平分配的事情那垂直分配跟水平分配是有相關聯的"},{"start":299.946,"end":324.903,"text":"我現在先請教一件事啦目前財政收支劃分法依照您的標準垂直分配有沒有需要改善垂直分配要改善的部分事實上我們在立法幾個原則裡面都提到了我們會保障所以要改善嘛對不對會有要我們當然會去考慮這個部分一定會去考慮的對所以垂直分配的部分要改善嘛要如何改善"},{"start":325.831,"end":348.145,"text":"我的問題就是這樣啊你整份報告沒有回答這個問題啊你整份報告鬼打牆啊一百八十度自打臉啊說中央政府債務負擔人數沉重來 我們來看一下當初我們的準總統賴清德他在當台南市市長的時候跟著蘇貞湯出來呼籲"},{"start":350.756,"end":371.17,"text":"統籌分配款中央統籌分配款要改善我們那個時候中央政府殘棄債務的比例是多少36%按照您今天所說的我們有改善改善到27%我現在就完全聽不懂邏輯了以前國民黨在朝民進黨在野"},{"start":372.832,"end":393.599,"text":"長期債務比例是36%他們認為統籌分配款給地方的太少要改結果現在按照你們自己的數字喔改善到27點多了你給大家的報告竟然說中央政府的債務非常的沉重討論要謹慎這什麼邏輯啊這已經讓人不知道怎麼評論啦這什麼邏輯啊36的時候"},{"start":401.982,"end":416.641,"text":"36的時候要改善要多給地方統籌分配管現在27的時候中央政府債務負擔的比例非常的沉重所以我們財政收支劃分法討論垂直分配的時候要審慎有這種邏輯嗎"},{"start":420.125,"end":441.883,"text":"有這種邏輯嗎?委員我們寫的是事實的一個呈現目前的一個債務比例當然我們希望能夠債務比例更能夠往下降我想這個是中央在財政上都必須要而且除非讓我們的財政韌性根組但是呢在未來在垂直分配的時候一樣是可以考慮地方的一些需求"},{"start":443.112,"end":462.81,"text":"所以呢,現在的立法,你們現在的規劃方向是什麼?一樣嘛,是一片空洞,是嗎?不是,我剛剛跟委員報告,我們要先解決這個分配的問題。對啊,所以我現在就在跟你處理垂直分配的問題啊。我是說水平的分配應該要先做分配。所以嘛,你要繼續的拿水平分配的問題來混淆視聽嘛。"},{"start":464.551,"end":464.912,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"151306","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151306","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627f302a41640e62022068d0b55d8f96a4ec5dab72e655c1c941a5bdcbe6895c8a55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"12:24:42 - 12:38:26","影片長度":"00:13:44","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":824,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:38:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:24:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":455,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（12時24分）謝謝主席及各位先進，有請國防部的邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：賴委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：你好。我原本今天沒有打算要來，但是看到你來了，我覺得心裡有些話還是要跟你講一下。你是我看過這幾任部長裡面算是很優的部長之一。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["賴委員士葆：我不敢說你是最優，但你是績優的，為什麼被換下來呢？我先問你的心情是很高興、解脫了，還是……"],["邱部長國正：我……"],["賴委員士葆：你先聽我說，你的感覺是解脫了，還是心裡很鬱卒，覺得有些重要的事情沒有做完，將軍的本色就是替國家做事，使命感沒有達成，心有一點點不甘，到底屬於哪一種？是happy的、高興的、解放了、壓力釋放了，比較好睡覺了，還是覺得壯志未酬。你是屬於哪一種？"],["邱部長國正：跟委員報告，我現在心真的很平靜，我沒有吹牛；睡不著的原因，我就稱之為枕戈待旦，軍人就是枕戈待旦嘛！至於政策有沒有完成，這不是問題，為什麼？我當初也有很多前面的規定，因為政策有延續性，我今天要推動的工作都是政策擬定的，我離開了，後面的人也一定會推動。假如這個政策我們擬定以後，可能有問題，他去修調，後面他的責任，我不會去過問。所以我沒有特別高興或特別難過，就是很平靜，因為軍人一路走來，拿到人令，就到新單位報到。"],["賴委員士葆：心情沒有任何的起伏？"],["邱部長國正：沒有，沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：沒有高興，也沒有不高興？"],["邱部長國正：都沒有。"],["賴委員士葆：那就很奇怪。"],["邱部長國正：就麻木了。"],["賴委員士葆：麻木了？"],["邱部長國正：不，不，不是麻木，就是情緒很平靜。"],["賴委員士葆：人都有七情六欲，你都沒有，沒有情沒有欲，這個很奇怪！"],["邱部長國正：抱歉，抱歉！不是麻木，是很平靜。"],["賴委員士葆：第二個小問題，你覺得你放心交給顧立雄嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我沒有不放心，跟委員報告，我沒有預設怎麼樣……"],["賴委員士葆：他是接你的人……"],["邱部長國正：我沒有接到任何通知說我要交差給誰，真的沒有，剛剛媒體也在問：你們現在辦交接了？我想什麼東西交接？我沒有看到人令，也沒有聽到哪位長官說你哪一天要交接。"],["賴委員士葆：我今天都問不出什麼，覺得心裡很難過，怎麼這麼沒用，問不出問題來！第三個……"],["邱部長國正：剛剛委員已經問了一個，我就講……"],["賴委員士葆：你看我一開始就誇獎你，你要真的給我回答，不然的話我走不出去啊！"],["邱部長國正：我講麻木，遣詞用語不當，真的很抱歉。"],["賴委員士葆：第三個問題，至少有媒體這樣講，後面幾個帥哥美女這樣寫，他們說之所以交給顧立雄，是顧立雄比較聽美國人的話，你不怎麼聽，你主見太強，是這樣子嗎？"],["邱部長國正：不會，我跟委員報告……"],["賴委員士葆：你還是很聽老美的話，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：我沒有聽過這種言論，我們曾經也想過，怎麼會聽美國人？國家是我們的，自己的國家自己救，怎麼會聽國外的人呢？但是，我要跟委員報告，任何專家學者所提供的意見，我們都可以做參考，但不代表要聽從。參考的原因在哪裡，如果有做不足的，我們可以參考。"],["賴委員士葆：我再問個小問題，你對文人部長跟你們這些將官部長比較，是怎麼樣？"],["邱部長國正：我坦白跟委員報告，各有利弊。文人部長可以帶領國軍到另外一個比較開闊一點的領域；軍人部長看來就很容易進入狀況，但也比較容易侷限在國防這一塊。所以是各有利弊。"],["賴委員士葆：國防部長本來就侷限在國防……"],["邱部長國正：國防裡面有分軍政、軍令跟軍備，文人部長來了以後，他會很持平地來看這幾個問題。像我一路搞戰備過來的人，我的確也有會偏頗把這些東西放在教育訓練、戰備操演，當然，建軍備戰我們一定要顧，但我在這一方面可能就有所不足。如果是文人的話，他很持平，不是講他不足，但他會請教幾位副部長跟總長，因為每一位副部長……"],["賴委員士葆：所以你認為文人部長會比將軍部長好？是不是這個意思？"],["邱部長國正：不是好不好的問題，就是各有利弊。"],["賴委員士葆：是各有利弊，還是半斤八兩？"],["邱部長國正：也不能講半斤八兩，就是各有利弊。"],["賴委員士葆：你總是要講一下，要有個結論啊！"],["邱部長國正：這好像沒有個結論吧，因為它還沒定案，我也不知道……"],["賴委員士葆：定案了啦，怎麼沒有定案！你看顧立雄笑成這樣！"],["邱部長國正：我沒有接到通知。"],["賴委員士葆：我看到媒體說他準備接了。"],["邱部長國正：媒體報的歸媒體報，我們真的沒有看到人令或告知我哪一天要交差……"],["賴委員士葆：請問你最近去了衡山指揮所幾次？"],["邱部長國正：我大概每個禮拜六、禮拜天都會去。"],["賴委員士葆：都會去嘛！以後顧立雄部長會不會去不知道，但至少你去了，大家感覺會服氣，因為你懂啊！顧立雄去的話，大家心裡想你又不懂，就差不多、差不多，大家心裡會這樣想！"],["邱部長國正：報告委員，能不能讓我講一下，我去的原因很簡單，最近這幾年來，我很難離開臺北指揮所這地方，因為有時候敵情變化，我的個性是人在會比較放心。事實上平常不管總長或是各軍種司令或各駐外區指揮官都要看部隊；我這樣做的原因，是因為我在這一塊比較欠缺，假設以前部長他能夠這樣到附近去看的話，我可能也就沒有必要在禮拜六、禮拜天進去跟他們視訊會議了，就沒這個必要。"],["賴委員士葆：你會不會期待以後顧立雄跟你一樣，每個禮拜六、禮拜天去一下衡山指揮所？"],["邱部長國正：我沒有這種期待，因為以前哪怕軍方出來擔任部長，也不見得每個禮拜會去，就每個人做法不一樣。"],["賴委員士葆：所以我才欣賞你嘛！只有你每個禮拜去！老實講，光這一點就不應該換你啦，對不對？這麼認真，這麼打拚，這麼專業，把你換掉，真的好奇怪。"],["邱部長國正：委員抬愛啦！不過講真話，這個軍政軍令跟軍備各有這個其職掌……"],["賴委員士葆：你有你的看法，我有我的看法，過去軍政軍令是分開的，所以軍政由文人來做還可以，軍令的這個參謀總長在一元化之後，參謀總長要聽國防部長的，感覺部長可以隨時override參謀總長，這時候他的軍事素養就很重要了。"],["邱部長國正：通常部長會尊重軍令部門，軍政跟軍備……"],["賴委員士葆：你怎麼知道，你又不是顧立雄！我再問你潛艦的問題，我們現在總共是要做8艘還是七艘？"],["邱部長國正：未來總共8艘。"],["賴委員士葆：港試─港裡面的試驗，什麼時候做完？"],["邵參事維揚：H AT 部分現在已經開始執行中。"],["賴委員士葆：我知道啦！什麼時候結束finished？"],["邵參事維揚：什麼時候finished，現在沒辦法跟委員報告，因為我們一項一項都要過。"],["賴委員士葆：我聽到的是，預估今年年底可以做完港試？"],["邵參事維揚：我們現在已經在做港試了。"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你講是結束啦！"],["邵參事維揚：每一個人都有想法，但是我們海軍基本上在品質跟安全要求下才能過。"],["賴委員士葆：對不起，憲法規定你來這裡要講實話，你要講實話！"],["邵參事維揚：我講的是實話，我們工程人員一定是一項一項都要做完才能往下走，我們不敢……"],["賴委員士葆：我能不能這樣講，最可能年底可以完成港試？most likely可以嗎？"],["邵參事維揚：這是我們大家的期望。"],["賴委員士葆：海試什麼時候開始做？"],["邵參事維揚：港試做完之後，我們繼續執行海試。"],["賴委員士葆：海試要做多久？"],["邵參事維揚：海試也是要看科目。"],["賴委員士葆：我們看了資料，還問了陳永康大將軍，這一點他比你們懂很多，我常常去跟他學習，跟他學很多功課，我從你們那裡得不到答案，他那裡都有答案。"],["邱部長國正：我們也跟陳委員得到很多答案。"],["賴委員士葆：對啊！多跟他請教潛水艇的事情是對的。姓陳名永康，as long as，別名叫做作潛艦！專家中的專家，你們要多問他，就不會搞成「灰灑灑」這樣子！海試做完了，才能夠去打仗，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["賴委員士葆：我們很期待。我再問一個很外行但很重要的問題，你期待什麼時候這8艘可以開始服役，most likely？"],["邵參事維揚：報告，每一條船交完艦之後，成軍訓練完，它就正式加入……"],["賴委員士葆：好，那第一艘什麼時候？"],["邵參事維揚：應該是明年。"],["賴委員士葆：明年就可以正式了？"],["邵參事維揚：sorry，是明年交艦。"],["賴委員士葆：所以裡面的紅區什麼設備都有？是完整有攻擊能力的？"],["邵參事維揚：一定有攻擊能力，不然沒辦法通過我們港試，然後做海試，一定是全部都配備完之後才能做的。"],["賴委員士葆：你的意思是第一艘的海試明年就做完了，有這麼快嗎？"],["邵參事維揚：我們希望，也是我們期盼。"],["賴委員士葆：我剛剛問陳將軍，他不是這樣講的，沒有這麼快！OK、OK，是我聽錯了，將軍不要生氣！我所瞭解的，海試其實還要一段時間，所以真正能夠開始去打仗、服役，不是2025，大概是2026。請問，我這樣猜測對不對？"],["邱部長國正：報告委員，我們期望，我們大家努力，也沒有說預定一定要哪一年哪一月，為什麼不敢做這個確定？因為測試是很重要的關鍵，一有問題要改進，改進之後，後面會延宕，我們也不希望延宕，但誰也都不敢保證它不延宕，我們期望能如期如質的完成，完成之後，經過訓練就加入戰鬥的序列；但你現在要我講最後時間，哪一年幾月會完成，真的答不出來。"],["賴委員士葆：好，最後一個小問題，8艘潛艦如果統統都能夠服役，是不是夠了？還是未來仍需要建更多的潛艦，來保衛整個臺灣的安全？"],["邵參事維揚：報告委員，基本上我們是從潛艦整體的戰力來去看這件事情，如果到那個時間點，我們前面兩艘劍龍級可能也超過40年了，可能也要汰換。所以我們認為潛艦應該是一艘一艘建造出來，才能夠滿足我們海軍的需求。"],["賴委員士葆：我把結論講完就結束。8艘是不是夠在短、中期裡面維護臺海的安全？8艘夠了，是不是？"],["邱部長國正：這個問題，我要跟委員報告8艘不夠，誠如剛剛所講的，我們的戰力希望越整備越強，彈藥也好，兵力也好，要越來越多，多到什麼地步？若超過我們的能力，多也沒有意義，但至少我們有這基本的額度以後，可以做好我們的防衛作戰，最起碼可以守住我們臺灣的安全。我想這個東西沒有什麼夠不夠的，譬如用任何的裝備，它可能都會壞，一壞了，後面就要持續……"],["賴委員士葆：經費大概就是你們寫的2,800億7艘，所以8艘的話是三千多億？"],["主席：因為時間的關係，請簡單回復。"],["賴委員士葆：就回答一下。"],["邵參事維揚：報告委員，2,800億的部分，海軍都還沒講，我們還在努力計算中，所以我也不曉得那部分怎麼出來的。"],["賴委員士葆：媒體亂寫的，是嗎？"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：接下來請李柏毅委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-13","speakers":["馬文君","林楚茵","黃仁","陳永康","羅美玲","王定宇","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","李柏毅","洪孟楷","羅智強","林憶君","王鴻薇","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢（含秘密會議）","agenda_id":"1133001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.5372187500000001,"end":1.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.7690937500000001,"end":2.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.1359687500000004,"end":5.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.684093750000001,"end":6.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.598468750000002,"end":14.222843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.492843750000002,"end":14.880968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.387218750000002,"end":18.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.812843750000003,"end":21.394718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.394718750000003,"end":21.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.086593750000002,"end":22.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.980968750000002,"end":26.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.96346875,"end":28.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.313468750000002,"end":29.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.76909375,"end":29.781593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.11909375,"end":32.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.814718750000004,"end":34.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.99596875,"end":36.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.299093750000004,"end":39.923468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.704093750000006,"end":42.657218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.55159375,"end":44.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.93534375,"end":45.728468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.728468750000005,"end":45.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.74534375,"end":45.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.76221875,"end":46.470968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.98159375,"end":48.900968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.799718750000004,"end":49.508468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.305968750000005,"end":51.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.212843750000005,"end":62.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.83971875,"end":65.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.94471875,"end":69.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.19721875,"end":71.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.96909375,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.13346875,"end":73.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.58909375,"end":74.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.98971875000001,"end":75.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.03596875000001,"end":76.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.04846875,"end":79.22534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.61346875000001,"end":89.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.75534375000001,"end":93.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.19346875000001,"end":104.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.52096875000001,"end":111.70971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.96284375,"end":129.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.90971875000001,"end":131.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.52096875,"end":131.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.70659375,"end":132.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.65159375000002,"end":135.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.13221875000002,"end":135.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.00971875000002,"end":145.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.80284375000002,"end":143.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.73846875,"end":143.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.78909375,"end":150.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.56909375,"end":150.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.24784375000002,"end":153.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.30221875,"end":173.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.28909375,"end":158.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.88596875000002,"end":173.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.06284375,"end":178.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.77534375000002,"end":180.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.46284375000002,"end":184.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.89659375000002,"end":185.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.01034375,"end":186.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.06096875,"end":187.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.15784375,"end":187.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.19159375,"end":192.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.03034375000001,"end":194.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.05534375000002,"end":195.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.03409375,"end":196.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.33346875,"end":198.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.40909375,"end":200.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.26971875,"end":202.96971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.31971875000002,"end":204.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.17596875,"end":206.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.37409375000001,"end":210.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.64784375000002,"end":211.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.06534375,"end":212.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.49971875,"end":214.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.27596875,"end":214.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.01846875,"end":217.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.50346875000002,"end":217.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.46096875,"end":224.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.21096875,"end":226.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.40471875,"end":237.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.88409375,"end":239.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.31846875000002,"end":240.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.59659375,"end":242.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.94659375,"end":244.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.05596875,"end":245.17409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.17409375000003,"end":245.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.20784375000002,"end":245.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.34284375000001,"end":245.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.46096875,"end":245.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.51159375,"end":245.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.52846875,"end":245.57909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.96721875000003,"end":246.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.27096875,"end":246.40596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.40596875000003,"end":246.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.62534375,"end":247.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.54471875000002,"end":250.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.16471875000002,"end":252.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.03784375,"end":255.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.70409375000003,"end":256.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.98659375,"end":268.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.27596875,"end":298.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.37596875,"end":276.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.52784375000005,"end":276.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.93284375,"end":277.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.07284375,"end":301.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.63784375,"end":307.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.51034375,"end":309.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.47221875,"end":310.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.36659375,"end":309.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.00784375,"end":310.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.37909375000004,"end":310.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.39596875,"end":312.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.42971875,"end":311.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.55596875000003,"end":313.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.97346875,"end":320.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.55534375,"end":317.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.92221875,"end":318.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.08659375,"end":319.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.53784375000004,"end":321.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.53346875,"end":321.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.44471875,"end":325.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.08159375,"end":327.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.18221875,"end":332.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.32096875,"end":333.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.29534375000003,"end":334.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.00409375000004,"end":334.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.07159375000003,"end":334.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.24034375,"end":334.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.37534375,"end":334.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.51034375,"end":334.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.43846875,"end":336.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.13034375,"end":336.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.97409375,"end":340.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.97346875,"end":341.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.68221875,"end":352.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.87096875000003,"end":349.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.39784375000005,"end":354.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.74346875000003,"end":355.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.13159375000004,"end":356.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.04284375000003,"end":361.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.62846875,"end":364.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.53096875,"end":366.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.68284375,"end":365.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.12971875000005,"end":371.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.58471875000004,"end":407.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.61846875000003,"end":371.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.73534375,"end":408.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.81096875000003,"end":408.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.94596875,"end":408.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.96284375000005,"end":423.23909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.72159375,"end":414.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.14221875000004,"end":425.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.31909375000004,"end":425.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.39909375,"end":425.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.75346875,"end":429.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":430.03971875,"end":430.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":430.88346875,"end":433.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.33909375,"end":431.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.16159375,"end":441.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.63409375000003,"end":433.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.66784375000003,"end":433.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.31221875000006,"end":443.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.08409375,"end":443.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.75909375000003,"end":445.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.34096875,"end":448.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.42909375000005,"end":449.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.55971875,"end":451.53846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.82534375,"end":455.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.02721875000003,"end":457.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.08596875,"end":459.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.87471875000006,"end":462.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.14846875,"end":464.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.31284375,"end":468.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.00034375,"end":473.79659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.15971875,"end":474.21846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.74159375000005,"end":475.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.47971875,"end":478.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.34846875000005,"end":482.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.03159375,"end":482.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.38159375000004,"end":485.67659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.02284375000005,"end":484.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.06471875000005,"end":489.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.60034375000004,"end":489.50721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.50721875000005,"end":489.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.97971875,"end":489.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.77284375000005,"end":493.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.22409375,"end":492.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.29159375,"end":496.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":496.96596875000006,"end":498.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.75471875000005,"end":503.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.91846875000005,"end":508.49159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.50409375000004,"end":512.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":511.42784375,"end":514.9209687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.9465937499999,"end":520.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.5322187500001,"end":519.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.7978437500001,"end":522.2109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.39659375,"end":523.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.7509687500001,"end":529.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.20159375,"end":530.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.74971875,"end":533.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.95596875,"end":534.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":534.7490937499999,"end":536.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.1453437499999,"end":537.7022187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.8372187500001,"end":539.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.55846875,"end":540.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.87471875,"end":541.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.4778437500001,"end":544.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.6672187500001,"end":547.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.6584687500001,"end":548.7553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.27846875,"end":550.8815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.5734687500001,"end":554.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.6784687500001,"end":556.2309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":556.46721875,"end":559.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":560.4497187500001,"end":561.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.1203437500001,"end":562.5928437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.7278437500001,"end":565.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.59221875,"end":567.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.14909375,"end":567.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.12784375,"end":570.4228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.1697187500001,"end":570.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.96284375,"end":574.0678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":574.2534687500001,"end":575.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.70471875,"end":577.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":578.0165937500001,"end":579.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.94034375,"end":580.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.18909375,"end":581.9990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.3615937500001,"end":587.0615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":587.4665937500001,"end":589.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.0990937500001,"end":592.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":593.6428437500001,"end":594.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.6553437499999,"end":596.8997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.8997187500001,"end":597.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.35534375,"end":601.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.74284375,"end":604.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.92784375,"end":606.8897187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":606.5522187500001,"end":609.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.8897187499999,"end":607.1428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.1428437500001,"end":607.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.21034375,"end":607.4465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":609.8090937500001,"end":610.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.02846875,"end":610.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.28159375,"end":612.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.40784375,"end":618.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.17471875,"end":620.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.0859687500001,"end":620.2378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.1828437500001,"end":624.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.37221875,"end":624.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.94596875,"end":627.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":628.2365937500001,"end":630.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.4978437500001,"end":636.7078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":636.8090937500001,"end":639.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.7747187500001,"end":641.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.7703437499999,"end":644.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":646.03971875,"end":648.7903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":649.70159375,"end":649.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":650.8659687500001,"end":651.2709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":652.09784375,"end":652.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":652.90784375,"end":652.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.1103437500001,"end":653.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":654.3759687500001,"end":654.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":656.9409687500001,"end":657.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":659.4384687500001,"end":661.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":661.2947187500001,"end":662.3915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":663.31971875,"end":664.5347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":665.14221875,"end":667.0828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":667.3190937500001,"end":674.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":676.71846875,"end":678.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.6884687500001,"end":682.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.6922187499999,"end":699.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.71909375,"end":713.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":711.0928437500002,"end":712.8984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":712.96596875,"end":717.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":717.3872187500001,"end":718.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":718.19721875,"end":718.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":718.90596875,"end":720.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":720.3234687500001,"end":721.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":721.43721875,"end":722.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":722.70284375,"end":724.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":725.3015937499999,"end":725.4365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":725.5209687500001,"end":725.5378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.6515937500001,"end":740.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":741.48471875,"end":746.3953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":746.3953437499999,"end":750.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":750.5634687500001,"end":752.2509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":752.8584687500002,"end":753.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":753.63471875,"end":757.1615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":757.7522187500001,"end":759.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":759.5578437500001,"end":761.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":760.9584687500001,"end":769.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.5478437500001,"end":787.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":787.24971875,"end":798.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":797.0034687500001,"end":809.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":802.7409687500001,"end":802.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":802.84221875,"end":803.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":803.5847187500001,"end":803.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":803.66909375,"end":803.9053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":803.9053437500002,"end":804.4115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":804.4115937500001,"end":804.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":804.95159375,"end":806.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":808.17471875,"end":808.2422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":810.2165937500001,"end":815.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":815.49846875,"end":817.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":818.16471875,"end":819.3797187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":820.2065937500001,"end":821.2022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":823.37909375,"end":824.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":824.2397187500001,"end":824.5603437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.91,"end":4.953,"text":"謝謝主席及各位先進有請國防部的邱部長請邱部長"},{"start":13.775,"end":31.641,"text":"賴委員好你好我原來今天沒有打算要來看到你來了我覺得還是心裡有些話要對你講一下這個你是我看過這樣幾任部長算是很優的部長的之一我不敢說你是最優但是是極優的為什麼被換下來呢"},{"start":40.47,"end":66.973,"text":"我先問你心情是很高興解脫了還是說你感覺解脫了還是說心裡很慾足覺得有些重要的事情沒有做完你覺得使命感將軍的本事就是替國家做事那種使命感沒有達成心有一點點不甘到底屬於哪一種是happy的"},{"start":79.682,"end":93.252,"text":"我跟委員報我現在心真的很平靜很平靜我沒有講吹牛啊這樣這個睡不著原因我講的不是講話沒急著起來當然啦我這稱之為整個代代嘛軍人就是整個代代嘛"},{"start":95.047,"end":111.121,"text":"政策有沒有什麼完成沒有完成這不是問題為什麼我當屆時也很多前面的規定啊所以政策有延續性我今天要推動工作都是一個政策既然離定了我離開後面的人他一定會推動"},{"start":112.122,"end":113.484,"text":"所以心情沒有任何的起伏"},{"start":131.664,"end":131.944,"text":"你覺得你放心交給顧立雄嗎?"},{"start":154.349,"end":171.715,"text":"我沒有不放心的我跟委員報告我沒有預設他欠你的人啊他欠你的人啊沒有我現在我沒有交任何通知你要交才交給誰真的沒有剛剛媒體也在問欸你們現在辦交接了我想什麼東西交接我人力沒有看到也沒有天堂掌握欸你哪天要交接"},{"start":172.615,"end":175.037,"text":"來,第三個問題我就問你喔,就是說有人說啦"},{"start":199.431,"end":223.637,"text":"有人這樣講媒體最少媒體這樣講後面幾個帥哥美女這樣寫他們說他們說說之所以交給顧立雄是顧立雄不再聽美國人的話你不怎麼聽你主見太強是這樣什麼不會我跟委員報告我沒有你還是很聽他們的話嘛對不對沒有我沒有聽過這種言論我們曾經也講過欸要聽不要欸怎麼會聽美國人國家都是我們的"},{"start":227.415,"end":228.876,"text":"其實我第三個小問題你對於文人部長跟你們這些將官部長比較怎麼樣?"},{"start":257.248,"end":272.458,"text":"我談了跟委員報告各有利弊,委員部長他可以帶領國軍到另外一個領域,比較開闊一點,但居然說看來很容易進入狀況,但我講各有利弊,比較容易就局限在國防這塊"},{"start":273.607,"end":300.989,"text":"國防部長本來就說局限在國防的地方國防裡面他有分軍政軍令跟軍備嘛但加一個文人來理由他會很持平來看這幾個問題像我一路搞這個戰備過來的我的確我有會偏我把這些放在教育訓練啦戰備操演啦當然建軍備我們也一定要顧但我在這一方面可能就有所不足但加文人的話他很持平"},{"start":301.71,"end":319.435,"text":"他不是講說不足但他會就較於幾位副部長跟總長因為每位副部長所以你是比較你認為文人部長會比將軍部長好這個意思好不好我剛剛就各有利弊各有利弊還是半斤八兩也不能講半斤八兩就是各有利弊總是講一下我得個結論"},{"start":328.481,"end":339.963,"text":"這好像沒有個結論吧,因為還沒定案,我也不知道...定案了啦,怎麼沒有定案?你開估你上邱哥?我沒有交通我們看到媒體嘛,他那個就是準備接啦"},{"start":340.95,"end":346.372,"text":"請問你最近去恆山指揮所去了幾次?我大概每個禮拜六、九天都會去都會去嗎?以後郭立雄部長他會不會去不知道啦他說最少你去了大家感覺會服氣嘛 你的媽啦"},{"start":364.82,"end":371.104,"text":"我去的原因很簡單,因為我們最近這幾年來,我很難離開臺北指揮所這個地方因為有一個敵情的變化,大概我的個性,人在乎比較放心事實上平常看部隊,不管總長或者各軍總的司令或各專區指揮官,他們都在看部隊"},{"start":394.777,"end":419.67,"text":"那我這樣做原因在哪裡?因為我在這一塊比較欠缺。假設以前部長他能夠這樣到部隊去看的話,我可能也就沒有必要在禮拜六禮拜天第1個港中視訊會議了。就沒這個必要。你會不會期待以後顧立雄跟你一樣每個禮拜六禮拜天去一下衡山市會所?不是,我沒有這種期待。為什麼?因為以前部長哪怕軍方出來擔任部長,他也不見得是每個禮拜會去。"},{"start":420.871,"end":427.817,"text":"所以每個人做法不一樣所以我才欣賞你嘛 光這個的話老實講就不應該換你啦對不對 這麼認真這麼怕扁 專業 要把你換掉好奇怪這抱怨委員台愛啦 不過講真話喔 這個軍政軍令跟軍備各有這個執掌你有你的看法 我有我的看法 過去軍政軍令是分開的"},{"start":446.414,"end":473.941,"text":"所以軍政是文人來做還可以軍令這個參謀總長現在是議員化參謀總長是聽你的聽國防部長的那種感覺這個東西等於是等於是部長可以隨時overwrite參謀總長啊這個他的一個軍事適用就很重要啊不一樣啊部長會尊重軍令部門啦就跟軍聖跟軍備你也知道你又不是鼓勵熊你也知道對不對"},{"start":476.916,"end":481.818,"text":"來,我問你今天潛艦的問題我們現在總共是要做8艘還是7艘?總共8艘總共在未來啦港式什麼時候做完?港式港裡面的試驗啦來來來HAT部分現在已經開始執行中"},{"start":496.994,"end":500.138,"text":"我聽到了說今年年底一股今年年底可以做完港式是不是?"},{"start":509.554,"end":514.799,"text":"我講的是說工程人員,我們一定一項一項都要做完才能往下走,我們不敢……我能不能這樣講,最可能年底可以完成港式,可以嗎?最可能,most likely,可以嗎?"},{"start":538.116,"end":565.063,"text":"這是我們大家的期望期望不是最可能好海事什麼時候開始做港事做完之後我們繼續執行海事海事要做多久海事也是要看科目我們看到資料還有問了我們大將軍陳永康大將軍這一點他比你們懂很多我們幾乎常常去跟他學習跟他學很多功課你們都我都從裡面來得不到答案他讓你都有答案"},{"start":568.214,"end":577.118,"text":"我必須跟陳偉得到什麼答案對啊 多跟他請教潛水艇的事情請教他就對了對不對 陳姓陳名永康Authnumous 這個別名叫做潛艦專家 專家 中國專家你要多問他對不對 就不會搞成這樣子好像看起來NAU灰煞煞這樣子的齁"},{"start":594.189,"end":620.212,"text":"還是做完了才能夠去打仗嘛對不對?對好 那我們雖然期待我就問一下很外行但是很重要什麼時候這巴騷可以開始服役?應該是分...Most likely好不好你期待什麼時候可以服役?報告每一條船交完件之後成軍訓練完他就正式加入好 那第一條什麼時候?應該是明年明年就可以正式了?"},{"start":621.258,"end":643.812,"text":"明年交建所以裡面的紅區什麼設備都有是完整的有攻擊能力的一定有攻擊能力不然沒辦法通過我們港式然後再做海事一定是全部都配備完的時候才能做的那你的意思是第一艘海事明年就做完囉有這麼快嗎我們希望也是我們期盼"},{"start":646.087,"end":671.397,"text":"我剛問陳將軍不是這樣講的我聽錯了將軍不要生氣我聽錯了我所了解的啦齁還是其實還要一段時間啦所以你真正能夠開始去打仗去服役大概不是2025啦大概2026我這樣猜測對不對請問"},{"start":677.175,"end":698.745,"text":"報告委員,我們很想期望嘛,我們大家努力嘛,也沒有講說一定一定要哪一年哪一月,為什麼不敢做這個確定呢?因為測試是個很重要的一個關鍵,因為問題叫改進,改進後面會延宕,我們也不期望延宕,但能不能保證它不延宕?"},{"start":699.773,"end":705.194,"text":"最後一個小問題巴沙的潛艦如果通通能夠服役是不是夠了還是未來需要再建更多的潛艦來保衛整個台灣的安全"},{"start":726.844,"end":746.04,"text":"報告委員因為基本上我們是看潛艦整體的戰力來去看這件事情那如果到那個時間點的話我們前面兩艘艦載機可能也超過40年了它也可能要到汰換所以我們認為潛艦應該是就一艘一艘建造出來才能夠滿足我們海軍的需求"},{"start":746.46,"end":768.29,"text":"所以大概可以,我就是結論講完,我就下去了。爆炒是不是夠在短時間或者短中期裡面維護台海的安全?爆炒夠了是不是?這就可以嗎?這問題我要跟委員做爆炒。爆炒不夠,什麼叫夠?我們有戰力的希望,越整備越強。"},{"start":769.951,"end":786.598,"text":"對,彈藥也好,冰液也好,越來越多,但多到什麼地步,要超過我們的能力的,多也沒有意義,但至少我們有這樣基本的額度以後,可以做好我們防衛作戰,最起碼可以守住我們的臺灣的安全。"},{"start":787.378,"end":790.78,"text":"金費大概就是你們寫的2817艘所以等於8艘的話是3000多億時間的關係簡單回覆就好"},{"start":810.233,"end":820.886,"text":"報告委員2800億海軍都還沒講我們現在還正在努力的計算中所以說那是我也不曉得怎麼出來啦媒體內寫的是吧好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151305","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151305","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627f6fc3bb6918fa91d0915613d02a5e1dcc5dab72e655c1c94dd8566ac4e98ee245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:30:00 - 12:34:30","影片長度":"00:04:30","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（4月17日及18日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":270,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:34:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:30:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":792,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時30分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：雖然潘部長即將卸任，你投身教育三十多年，然後擔任部長期間也非常長，你覺得我們教改30年，外面看到的廣設大學、文憑貶值，甚至導致技職教育受到非常大的影響及衝擊，你怎麼去評價這30年的教改成績？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，因為教改它是多面向的，當然所提到的這一些，確實我們從現在來看有它正面的部分。包含召委今天所安排的這個議題，我們知道臺灣在高教的規模上碰到少子化的這個議題，確實我們目前面對到挑戰。"],["羅委員智強：我想部長應該知道，外界對這30年的教改，普遍社會觀感是覺得相當不滿意，有很多不滿意的聲音，甚至當初推教改的李遠哲，他都說碩博士滿街跑不是李遠哲的錯，廣設大學跟我們無關；但是我們的李登輝前總統又說，是李遠哲引薦的美國式教育漏洞百出，認為李遠哲該為教改負全責。我看到李遠哲跟我們李登輝前總統把當時沸沸揚揚的教改看成燙手山芋，那麼部長，你對我們的教改30年很滿意嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：我說它是多面向的，有一些真的是讓臺灣教育有向前進步，有一些……"],["羅委員智強：當然啦！"],["潘部長文忠：當時也碰到了現在的挑戰，我跟委員報告的是這個事實，我因為在教育部服務……"],["羅委員智強：我要這樣講，你看30年來，現在後遺症就越來越多了，這個您也看到了嘛，對不對？第一件事情，你看到我們大專院校從58所變成148所，成長3倍，每年的學士生成長3倍，碩士生成長5倍。接下來就開始出現我們剛剛前面講的所謂文憑貶值，也衝擊到技職教育，直接面對到的就是今年7月將有15所的大專要關門，走入歷史。第一個面對到的就是那七千多名離退或失業的教師怎麼辦呢？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個數字……"],["羅委員智強：我是說預估到時候退場的學校會增加到40所，幾千位的教師就會離退或失業啊，不是嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個數據應該是民間的一些預估啦。"],["羅委員智強：是高教工會指出。"],["潘部長文忠：是。但我跟委員報告，大學校院過往有幾所列為專輔，現在已經退場了，目前……"],["羅委員智強：好，那我就從教育部本身的東西來問。"],["潘部長文忠：目前還沒有專輔的學校。"],["羅委員智強：高教工會指出，私校退場後找到全職的教師比率極低，少於5%，所以你認為高教工會說的是錯的嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，這是事實，因為我們在幫助大學校院……"],["羅委員智強：對嘛！所以問題就出現了。另外，你也看到教育部去年3月的立法院報告說要委託經濟部成立大專校院高等教育人力躍升培訓及媒合平台，請問這個平台成立6年媒合多少人？"],["潘部長文忠：應該是一百多位。"],["羅委員智強：1,000位大專教師求職，媒合69人進到產業界。所以我要特別講一件事，今天你可以看到高教工會……你也承認找到全職的教師比例少於5%，其他95%怎麼辦？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，有一些是到業界。"],["羅委員智強：所以我跟部長講，我也沒有怪你，你知道嘛，因為那惡因不是你種的啊！現在當然你也要離開了，所以我們也期待下一個部長，雖然惡因不是現在的政府種的，但是對於現在的惡果，現在政府就要幫這些教師找到出路啊！以上。"],["潘部長文忠：是，委員，這部分我們再持續努力，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請徐欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-8","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","吳春城","范雲","張嘉郡","羅智強","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","廖偉翔","莊瑞雄","劉建國","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.03034375,"end":5.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.2115937500000005,"end":6.072218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.227843750000002,"end":32.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.25784375,"end":53.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.369093750000005,"end":52.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.06909375,"end":84.28784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.99659375,"end":88.91159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.87346875,"end":100.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.31909375000001,"end":112.28346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.07346875,"end":106.19159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.66346875,"end":119.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.28221875000001,"end":147.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.78846875000002,"end":154.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.99409375000002,"end":156.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.52971875,"end":162.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.54971875,"end":167.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.49409375000002,"end":174.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.45534375,"end":175.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.43409375000002,"end":183.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.80846875,"end":184.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.08659375000002,"end":186.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.10346875000002,"end":184.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.66846875000002,"end":194.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.36784375000002,"end":197.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.13096875000002,"end":210.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.86721875,"end":214.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.94659375,"end":216.89159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.85346875000002,"end":227.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.79284375,"end":232.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.88909375,"end":235.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.28096875000003,"end":238.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.47034375,"end":244.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.11159375000003,"end":241.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.92096875000001,"end":246.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.82346875000002,"end":256.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.75034375,"end":263.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.98971875,"end":266.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.51221875000005,"end":269.65971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.045,"end":6.266,"text":"主席有請部長好請部長委員好雖然潘部長即將卸任那你投身教育30多年然後擔任部長期間也非常的長你覺得我們教改30年那外面看到的廣設大學文憑貶值甚至導致技職教育受到非常大的影響衝擊你怎麼去評價這個30年的教改成績"},{"start":33.431,"end":34.792,"text":"部長應該知道外界對這30年教改普遍的社會觀感是覺得相當的不滿意有很多不滿意的聲音"},{"start":62.313,"end":82.977,"text":"甚至當初推教改本身的李遠哲他都說這個朔博是滿街跑不是李遠哲的錯廣設大學跟我們無關然後但是我們的李登輝前總統又說是李遠哲引薦的美國式教育漏洞百出認為李遠哲該為教改負全責我覺得我看到李遠哲跟我們李登輝前總統"},{"start":89.909,"end":99.621,"text":"把這個教改當時的沸沸揚揚的教改看成燙手山芋欸我不知道那今天看起來部長你對我們的教改30年很滿意嗎"},{"start":100.696,"end":107.358,"text":"委員我說他是多面向有一些真的是讓臺灣教育有向前進步當時也碰到了現在的挑戰我要這樣講就是說你看現在開始30年來後遺症就越來越多了這裡您也看到了對不對"},{"start":120.362,"end":144.134,"text":"第一件事情啊你看到就是我們大專院校從58所變成148所成長成長3倍每年的學士生成長3倍碩士生成長5倍那接下來就開始出現我們剛剛前面講的所謂的那個文憑貶值啊那也衝擊到所謂的技職的教育那直接面對到就是今年7月將有15所的大專要關門走入歷史"},{"start":147.847,"end":167.077,"text":"第一個面對就是請問那7000多名的離退或失業的教師怎麼辦呢我說到時候預估啦退場的學校會增加到40所啦幾千位的教師就會離退或失業啊不是嗎"},{"start":170.088,"end":184.892,"text":"這個數據說真話應該是民間他們有一些的高教工會指出啦是是但委員我跟委員報告以目前大學校院過往有幾所列為專輔現在已經就退場目前從教育部本身的東西目前還沒有專輔的學校啦"},{"start":186.713,"end":214.208,"text":"高教工會指出施校退場後找到全職教師比例極低少於5%所以那位高教工會說的是說的嗎這是事實因為我們在幫助大學校對嘛所以問題就出現那另外你也看到教育部去年3月說要立法院報告說要委託經濟部成立大專校院高等教育能力躍升培訓及媒合平台請問這個平台成立6年媒合多少人啊"},{"start":216.13,"end":238.002,"text":"應該是一百多位一千位大專教師求職每合69人進到產業界所以我要特別講一件事就是說今天你可以看到高教工會你也承認啊這個找到全職教師比例少於百分之五其他百分之九十五怎麼辦所以我跟部長講我沒有怪你你知道嗎"},{"start":244.997,"end":245.017,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151304","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151304","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627c663b518453a498dcf744a9f110b3b1fc5dab72e655c1c944828966cd5e1f3d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:24:59 - 12:32:03","影片長度":"00:07:04","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":424,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:32:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:24:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":935,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時25分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請金管會主委跟經濟部次長。"],["主席：好，有請黃主委，有請陳次長。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：主委、次長。你們到底有沒有瞭解現在國內免卡分期、無卡分期的狀況有多泛濫？知道嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們的報告中有提一些，所以我們是先以重要性的這三家租賃公司下面的BNPL業務，去做瞭解。"],["洪委員孟楷：剛剛本席隨便一個查詢，隨便一個Google，就直接跳出視窗，全都是廣告，不但有說無卡分期，還有說最新手機現貨搶購中，先搶先贏，筆電、相機、家電、包包統統不用等，就是告訴你說，你想要來借，都可以借得到。免卡分期，付款、繳款容易，快速審核，個資不外流，不想讓家人知道的，還可以幫你保密，甚或提供學生、上班族、軍人滿18歲都可以申辦，先享受後付款，看起來這是一個非常嚴重的狀況。","本席剛剛特別看了一下金管會和經濟部的相關報告，現在是520前，正是政權交替之際，部長要換人，所以大家的報告也都簡單寫，還是說大家覺得這也不干各部會自己的事，現在看起來好像沒有一個主管機關，經濟部的結語竟然寫：協助消費者和個案協商，提供法律諮詢，促成個案和解。我們沒有一個更直接有效的管理方式嗎？還是說，這個就是看消費者之後要怎麼樣去找人協助，不管是找民代，還是找經濟部或相關單位，就是遇到再說。"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，經濟部所主管的法令裡面，我們的政策工具主要就是消費者保護法，就是在定型化契約裡面來設計，還有事後的消費者保護。"],["洪委員孟楷：是嘛。所以相對來講，大家也不認為這個是自己的主管機關，所以今天財政部也來，金管會也來，經濟部也來，大家都覺得這個有亂象，有問題，可是沒有一個人主管，是這樣嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這個話可能不能完全這樣講，其實兩年前，在去年年初，BNPL有問題的時候，我們就開始處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：民間就已經有講了嘛，金管會、經濟部互踢皮球，民間融資成三不管地帶，所以才呼籲要訂定融資專法。我們其實討論很久，我覺得召委今天有點無奈吧，看了很多委員上台，問了很多相關部會首長，但是部會首長回答的東西，跟兩年前、跟過去我們講的，其實都一致。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，不一樣。就算這個報告兩個禮拜前提出，跟今天金管會提的報告是不一樣的。"],["洪委員孟楷：文字內容大同小異，但是重點是結論的部分還都是這樣子。所以本席現在只是想講說，到底現在我們看到融資公司缺乏監管的衍生問題，這個三不管地帶，主管機關沒有專法的部分，我們到底有沒有想要痛定思痛地去協助處理？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，以我的層級，能夠跟您報告的就是，如果是決定要不要定專法，因為這牽涉到跨部會，可能要在行政院的層級去處理。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，我這樣子問，因為大家可能也都是520的時候部會首長換人，但是有人說，人要離開，其言也善，所以，如果真的要訂定融資專法的話，你認為是哪個部會擔任主管機關最合適？總可以講了吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我想這還是要由行政院來做決定。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有錯啊，但是行政院現在一定有問，在想到底是哪個部會當主管機關。是財政部？因為他們認為業務相對比較適合。是經濟部比較適合？還是金管會比較適合？總是有個部會要當主管機關啊！那我現在講啊！可能過去你會覺得：哎呀！拜託！不要再加重我的業務了。但現在總是要離開了，以你的專業判斷，來講一下嘛。如果真的要定融資專法的話，到底應該是哪個部會要多比較多的權責？立法委員協助的就是給予法定的修正、專法的訂立，並且給你們政策工具，讓你們真真正正可以來打老虎嘛！而不是像現在這樣子，明明就看到亂象了，明明就真的很多，不管是以前網路影片講的山道猴子啦，這些去借貸，然後造成一個家庭的問題，其實每一個這種民間的融資都不只是單一個人問題，而是一個家庭的問題，如果是夫妻的話，甚至是兩個家庭的問題、兩個家族的問題。那本席現在只想問很原則性的，如果說我們接下來真的是認為應該要有專法管理，不要讓它變成是三不管地帶的話，那到底哪一個是主管機關？還是有哪一個部會比較有Guts講說這一個我們來！不要再討論那麼久了，我們來！請說明。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員我覺得還是要由行政院做一個最後的判斷，因為牽涉到跨部會，而且您講的這些東西從網路上的BNPL到實體的部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以之後行政院什麼時候……它又遙遙無期，大家就互相推嘛，所以今天就是看到三個部會首長互相推，然後反正看行政院，看是哪一個政委出來，哪一個院長出來，如果說院長或哪一個政委，他又覺得說現在新聞過了、風頭過了，民調比較低了，唉唷不要碰，這又遙遙無期啊！所以大家講的Guts，政府官員的Guts，還是說你們看到問題想要解決問題的能力，或想要解決問題的決心，看不出來。"],["主席：洪委員時間超過了，洪委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：是這樣子嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我們一直在就這……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果說還要鬼打牆的回答就不用回答了。"],["黃主任委員天牧：OK。"],["洪委員孟楷：祝福主委一帆風順，但是該解決問題，國人都在看，如果說沒有辦法解決問題的話，國人對於部會真的是感到失望，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪委員的質詢，接下來請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-8","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","王世堅","顏寬恒","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","羅明才","林楚茵","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","吳春城","陳亭妃","王定宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就\n「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.03034375,"end":8.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.14784375,"end":8.164718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.637218750000002,"end":9.075968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.83534375,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.03784375,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.079718750000001,"end":12.535343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.277843750000002,"end":13.395968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.04971875,"end":16.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.39971875,"end":24.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.204093750000002,"end":26.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.38534375,"end":32.852843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.52784375,"end":37.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.75096875,"end":39.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.63659375,"end":43.517843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.682218750000004,"end":47.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.20909375,"end":48.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.44096875,"end":52.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.76534375,"end":63.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.99971875,"end":71.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.45409375,"end":74.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.88846875,"end":76.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.87971875000001,"end":81.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.36409375000001,"end":83.62971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.60846875,"end":87.40971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.28284375000001,"end":89.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.90721875,"end":94.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.34096875,"end":95.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.53909375,"end":102.56346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.96846875,"end":111.86159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.43534375,"end":121.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.62784375000001,"end":133.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.28846875000002,"end":135.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.21221875,"end":147.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.73784375,"end":147.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.97409375,"end":159.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.61784375000002,"end":160.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.57971875,"end":161.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.65534375000001,"end":163.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.03471875000002,"end":165.47346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.90784375,"end":168.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.69659375,"end":175.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.80534375000002,"end":184.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.56034375000002,"end":176.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.85846875000001,"end":186.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.63034375,"end":200.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.60721875000002,"end":205.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.04534375,"end":224.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.77221875,"end":226.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.43846875000003,"end":236.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.41596875000002,"end":241.34346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.61346875,"end":243.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.65534375000001,"end":244.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.66784375,"end":247.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.67159375000003,"end":251.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.53596875000002,"end":257.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.65284375000005,"end":263.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.75409375000004,"end":260.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.56784375,"end":271.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.54534375000003,"end":294.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.38159375000004,"end":304.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.25346875,"end":322.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.56284375,"end":325.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.92096875000004,"end":327.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.77721875000003,"end":329.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.95409375,"end":339.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.19721875000005,"end":343.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.31471875,"end":346.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.02721875000003,"end":348.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.19159375000004,"end":350.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.13221875000005,"end":361.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.41784375000003,"end":376.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.76346875,"end":362.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.96784375000004,"end":378.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.71846875,"end":381.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.96284375000005,"end":383.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.34221875000003,"end":385.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.06346875,"end":390.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.97409375,"end":391.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.72909375,"end":394.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.96096875,"end":394.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.59784375000004,"end":395.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.76659375,"end":395.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.78346875,"end":395.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.93534375,"end":395.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.96909375,"end":400.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.93034375,"end":403.37721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.33909375,"end":404.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.28409375,"end":413.11409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.19846875,"end":413.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.28284375000004,"end":413.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.29971875,"end":413.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.31659375000004,"end":416.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.78909375,"end":413.89034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.319,"end":23.832,"text":"主席,謝謝。麻煩請金管會主委跟經濟部次長。有請黃主委,有請陳次長。主委、次長,我們到底有沒有了解說現在我們國內這所謂的免卡分期、無卡分期的這個狀況到底有多氾濫?"},{"start":27.438,"end":48.489,"text":"我們報告中有提一些啦所以我們是抓大先禮重要性的這三家主任公司下面的BMP要業務去做了解但隨便一個Google剛剛本席隨便一個查詢隨便一個Google直接跳出來全都是廣告"},{"start":49.765,"end":75.748,"text":"5卡分期還有說這個最新手機現貨搶購中先搶先贏筆電相機家電包包通通不用等就是告訴你說你只要你想要來借都可以借的到免卡分期付款繳款容易快速審核個資不外流不想讓家人知道還可以保密甚至現貨提供"},{"start":76.932,"end":94.022,"text":"學生、上班族、軍人滿18歲都可以申辦先享受後付款那看起來這是一個非常嚴重的一個狀況那本席剛剛特別看了一下我們監管會跟我們經濟部的這個相關的一個"},{"start":95.384,"end":97.045,"text":"提供法律諮詢．促成個案和解"},{"start":122.657,"end":134.692,"text":"我們有一個更直接有效的管理方式嗎還是說這個就是看說這個消費者看消費者之後他要去怎麼樣去找不管是找民貸不管是找這個經濟部找相關那就是遇到再說"},{"start":136.223,"end":163.569,"text":"外委員目前經濟部所主管的法令裡面我們的政策工具主要就是消費者保護法那麼就是在定型化契約裡面來設計還有事後的消費者保護是嘛所以說相對來講說大家都沒有就是大家也不認為說這個是自己的主管機關所以說就大家就是互相所以今天才會不管是財政部也來金管會也來經濟部也來但是大家都覺得說這個有亂象有問題可是沒有一個人主管是這樣嗎"},{"start":167.16,"end":173.188,"text":"民間就已經有講了嘛金管會、經濟部互踢皮球民間融資成三不管地帶所以才要呼籲要訂定融資專法"},{"start":185.882,"end":189.185,"text":"就算這個報告兩個禮拜前跟今天金管會的報告是不一樣的"},{"start":206.061,"end":225.523,"text":"文字內容大同小異但重點是結論的部分還都是這樣子啊所以說本席現在只是想講是說到底現在我們看到我們融資公司缺乏監管的衍生問題這三不管地帶那主管機關沒有專法的部分我們到底有沒有想要痛力失痛的去做協助處理"},{"start":227.489,"end":232.172,"text":"我這樣子問啦我這樣問啦因為大家可能也都是520的時候這個部會首長換人嘛但是有人家講人之這個"},{"start":247.799,"end":256.632,"text":"人要離開啊其言也善啦所以呢如果說真的要訂立這所謂的融資專法的話認為是哪一個部會擔任主管機關會最合適"},{"start":259.813,"end":287.181,"text":"總可以講吧?報告委員我想這個還是要由行政院來做決定是沒有錯啊但是行政院現在一定有問嘛就是想是說那到底哪一個哪一個部會當主管機關是財政部認為說業務相對比較適合是經濟部比較適合還是金管會比較適合那總是有一個部會要當主管機關啊那我現在講啊你現在講你可能過去會覺得是說唉唷拜託不要再加重我的業務了但現在總是要離開了以專業判斷來講一下嘛"},{"start":289.522,"end":312.683,"text":"如果說真的要融資專法的話到底應該哪一個部會要多比較多的權責那立法委員我們協作就是給予法定的修正專法的一個定例並且給你們政策工具讓你們真真正正可以來打老虎嘛而不是像現在這樣子明明就看到亂象了明明就真的很多不管是什麼以前網路影片講三道猴子啦這一些"},{"start":313.484,"end":328.572,"text":"他們去借貸然後造成說一個家庭的問題其實每一個這種民間的融資都不是只是單一個問題是一個家庭的問題甚至是可能如果說有夫妻的話是兩個家庭的問題兩個家族的問題那本席現在只想問"},{"start":329.974,"end":329.994,"text":"請說明。"},{"start":351.195,"end":377.69,"text":"我覺得還是要由行政院坐在這邊做一個最後的談判會簽到跨部會而且您講的這堆東西從網路上的BMP到實體的部會所以之後行政院什麼時候他越來越無情所以大家就是互相推嘛所以今天就是看到三個部會首長互相推然後反正看行政院看是哪一個政委出來哪一個院長出來如果說院長哪一個政委他又覺得說現在新聞過了風頭過了民調比較低了不要碰"},{"start":379.755,"end":402.769,"text":"我這個又遙遙無期啊所以大家講的guards政府官員的guards還是說我們看到問題想要解決問題的能力或想要解決問題的決心看不出來是這樣嗎如果說還要鬼打牆的回答就不用回答了祝福主委一帆風順"},{"start":404.383,"end":404.483,"text":"韓國昌委員"}]}},{"id":"151303","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151303","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016277bc6021cc36faf280915613d02a5e1dcc5dab72e655c1c94f8ee8e183dec96ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"12:24:23 - 12:29:59","影片長度":"00:05:36","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（4月17日及18日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":336,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:29:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:24:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":764,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（12時24分）主席，我想請潘部長。"],["主席：好，請部長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，4月10號教改30年，民間團體410教改聯盟提出四大教改訴求，落實小班小校、廣設高中大學、推動教育現代化，以及制定教育基本法等等。除了制定教育基本法這個明確的目標已經落實之外，廣設高中、大學，原本是說設置較高品質的國立院校，結果呢？後來新設的都是私校，所有的技職院校都升為科大，我國的大專院校甚至曾經高達164所。我想部長也非常理解，少子化的現象從2000年就已經開始有徵兆，目前依照教育部所公布的資料，注定接下來的8年我們將會面對大規模的私校退場，社會上評估可能會有40至60校不等的私校退場，不曉得部長對於這個數字的看法？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，有關這些教改團體等等的評估，我不知道它是根據什麼，但教育部是很務實地面對現在少子化的現象，學校確實會面對招生等等問題，所以有一些數據……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以部長有盤點過嗎？接下來幾年，預估會有多少私校可能要被輔導或者是退場？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，應該說這些都有比較客觀的數據，因為學校也有開始在做相關的轉型跟努力，包括招收國際學生，這個會不會讓他們有機會改變，所以估算數值我覺得不太容易。"],["張委員嘉郡：但是在你的手上自己盤點，你覺得大概會有幾家？"],["潘部長文忠：我可能比較沒有辦法以這個……"],["張委員嘉郡：所以你們教育部現在是完全沒有概念？"],["潘部長文忠：不是，我們現在是對每個學校去監督、檢核。"],["張委員嘉郡：你是希望每一個學校都留下來，不希望他們退場？"],["潘部長文忠：如果學校非常用力地轉型……"],["張委員嘉郡：但是假設有40家好了，假設有40間在未來幾年即將要退場，以我們現在退場基金只有50億的規模，可以應付這麼多的私校退場嗎？部長你務實一點回答這個問題。"],["潘部長文忠：那個基金不是一個固定的限額，當有需求時，教育部一定會再增加，像今年113年我們有再挹注資金，所以我想這部分會因應未來的需求，因為那個對解決學生、教職員工的問題是很有幫助的。"],["張委員嘉郡：是。有關私校退場之後延伸的三個問題，一、學生的受教權；二、教職人員的工作保障；三、校地的活化。其中學生問題就是要協助轉校，教職人員的問題可能是資遣或者是退休慰問金等等，而最後剩下的這些校產，主要就是校地的問題，你可以看看這個，很多都變成廢墟。可以發現目前退場的私校校地問題，常常無法得到妥善的解決，很多退場的私校，土地荒廢、用途不明，你看看這些校園都被當成是生存遊戲的遊樂場所、探險的鬼屋，被遊民占用，成為治安的死角，甚至是社會問題的溫床，所以對於私校退場之後的校地利用，依私校退場條例規定，清算校產之後剩餘的財產歸屬，只能捐贈退場基金、中央主管機關或者是公立學校所處的地方政府，作為公益使用，但具體歸公之後的用途，誰能夠最後拍板決定要怎麼利用，這一點似乎沒有明文規定。請問一下部長，有沒有具體的規劃？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，目前已經確定退場的7所學校，除了正在進行中的明道大學，各相關單位還在討論，其餘的校地，包含校區，都已經很明確地有學校、政府或地方政府要來接手。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席在這裡建議，因為各單位有時候各自主張、各說各話，結果就是最後無法得到一個解決，這個校地問題就形同一個三不管地帶，所以很多單位有所主張，像是興建長照機構、興建社會住宅、作為產業園區發展、改辦其他公益文教機構等，都是很好的方法，但其實是很難做出結論的，而且都是曠日廢時，大家在一直討論的過程中，它們就變成一個社會問題的溫床，所以這一點希望部長應該想辦法在您交接之前能夠提出一個更具體的辦法。"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，這個就是現在進行式，因為這個部分不是教育部單獨在處理，是行政院跨部會，我以委員所在地的環球科大為例，雲林縣政府……"],["張委員嘉郡：本席在這裡建議要更積極地去處理，好嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：你看雲林科大還在運作中，現在雲林縣政府也有相關的規劃。"],["張委員嘉郡：不是雲林科大，是環球科大好嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：對不起！雲林的環球科大。"],["張委員嘉郡：你連這個都分不清楚，我也不知道怎麼跟你講，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：不是啦，雲林的環球科大，張縣長很積極在爭取。"],["張委員嘉郡：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請羅智強委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-8","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","吳春城","范雲","張嘉郡","羅智強","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","廖偉翔","莊瑞雄","劉建國","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":1.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.32971875,"end":7.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.59096875,"end":8.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.497843750000001,"end":76.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.86284375000001,"end":92.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.08846875,"end":92.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.33721875,"end":99.66096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.69471875,"end":118.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.84096875,"end":109.51596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.37159375,"end":117.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.78471875000001,"end":121.78409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.10471875,"end":124.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.82596875,"end":126.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.98596875000001,"end":129.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.70284375,"end":133.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.00596875000002,"end":133.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.02284375000002,"end":133.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.05659375000002,"end":135.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.09846875,"end":149.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.11534375000002,"end":135.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.04346875000002,"end":136.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.15534375000001,"end":165.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.94596875000002,"end":176.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.88096875000002,"end":240.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.49971875000003,"end":240.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.68534375000002,"end":240.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.75284375,"end":262.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.30971875,"end":243.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.64409375,"end":304.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.48971875,"end":322.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.08784375000005,"end":311.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.23534375,"end":315.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.93846875,"end":326.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.40659375,"end":325.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.56221875,"end":326.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.81534375,"end":328.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.84909375,"end":328.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.11034375,"end":330.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.86096875000004,"end":332.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.97471875,"end":333.05909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.27409375,"end":335.42159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.029,"end":0.049,"text":"4分鐘謝謝"},{"start":5.359,"end":31.266,"text":"主席我想請潘部長部長謝謝部長4月10號教改30年就是民間團體這個410的教改聯盟提出四大這個教改的訴求落實小班小校廣設高中大學推動教育現代化以及制定教育基本法等等除了說制定教育基本法這個明確的目標已經落實之外廣設"},{"start":33.166,"end":55.296,"text":"高中大學原本是說設置較高品質的國立院校那結果後來新設的都是私校那所有的技職院校都成為了科大我國的大專院校甚至曾經高達164所那少子化的現象我想部長也非常理解少子化的現象從2000年就已經開始有徵兆那目前呢"},{"start":60.478,"end":74.333,"text":"依照教育部所公布的資料注定了接下來的8年我們將會面對大規模的私校退場那社會上評估可能會有40至60校不等的私校退場不曉得部長對於這個數字的看法"},{"start":76.914,"end":79.215,"text":"所以部長有盤點過嗎?盤點過說接下來幾年我們預估會有多少私校可能要被輔導或者是退場?"},{"start":100.464,"end":119.676,"text":"委員我應該說這些都是比較有客觀的數據去做因為學校也有開始在做相關的一些轉型跟努力 或者招收國際學生這個會不會變成認為他們有機會改變過來所以可能估算數值我覺得不太容易在你的手上自己盤點你覺得大概會有幾家"},{"start":122.608,"end":147.705,"text":"所以你們教育部現在是完全沒有概念我們現在是對每個學校去監督監督但你是希望每一個學校都留下來不希望他們退場如果學校非常用力的轉型但是假設有40家好了假設有40間在未來的幾年即將要退場以我們現在的退場基金只有50億的規模可以應付這麼多私校退場嗎部長你務實一點回答"},{"start":149.946,"end":165.576,"text":"那個基金不是一個固定的限額啦那個當有需求的時候我想一定教育部一定會在像今年113年我們有在預注的資金所以我想這部分會為未來的需求因為那個對解決學生教職員工是很有幫助的"},{"start":166.036,"end":188.166,"text":"是 這個私校退場之後延伸了三個問題一 學生的受教權二 教職人員的工作保障三 校地的活化其中學生問題就是要協助轉校嘛那教職人員的問題可能是資錢或者是退休慰問金等等那最後剩下這些校產主要就是校地的問題你可以看看這個"},{"start":189.426,"end":194.248,"text":"很多都變成廢墟那目前退場的私校可以發現就是校地的問題常常是無法得到妥善的解決很多退場的私校土地荒廢用途不明你看看這些校園都被當成是生存遊戲的遊樂場所探險的鬼屋被遊民佔用成為治安的死角甚至是社會問題的溫床"},{"start":213.397,"end":213.497,"text":"請問一下部長"},{"start":240.987,"end":241.187,"text":"有沒有具體規劃"},{"start":261.708,"end":283.802,"text":"本席在這裡建議因為這個各單位有時候各自主張各說各話結果最後都是無法得到一個解決形同這個校地問題就形成一個三不管地帶所以很多單位主張有興建長照機構有興建社會住宅有作為產業園區發展改辦其他公益文教機構"},{"start":285.043,"end":288.584,"text":"這一點希望部長應該想辦法在您交接之前能夠有一個更具體的辦法來提出"},{"start":304.67,"end":304.69,"text":"好 謝謝謝謝"},{"start":334.35,"end":334.818,"text":"接下來我們請羅宇"}]}},{"id":"151302","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151302","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627439d78af8db4ab1bcf744a9f110b3b1fc5dab72e655c1c9483adf546086f61b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"12:18:04 - 12:24:57","影片長度":"00:06:53","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":413,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:24:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:18:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":902,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（12時18分）謝謝主席。主席，有請黃天牧黃主委、莊翠雲莊部長及陳正祺陳政次。"],["主席：好，黃主委、莊部長、陳政次。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：主委，辛苦了。"],["陳次長正祺：委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：午安。","首先我要先請黃主委。主委，您真的是辛苦了，過去在上一屆的財政委員會當中，我們共同一起解決了許多的問題，面對金融監理不是一件容易的事情，尤其是身為一個監理機關，坦白講，監理這件事情是顧人怨的。我自己過去在媒體的時候，坦白說，我們在媒體的時候，是最怕，也最討厭NCC，說實話，就是這樣，所以說面對許多的風雨，我想您心裡非常清楚，但是您承擔下來了，包括在上一屆會期最後，我們在講打詐的時候，詐騙這件事情其實根本沒有主管機關統一來處理，當時我們就想到了，如果是這種不法、不實的金融方面的廣告，我們可以用同樣的方式來規範，所以當時就修了相關法規，讓金管會至少能夠即時下架網路上的詐騙，當時包括您在內的金管會同仁，大家能夠跨部會合作，對於這件事情，其實我非常有感，您是真的非常勇於任事。因為我的時間有限，我要切進我的主題，就不讓您回答。","前面非常多財政委員會的委員都詢問了這次也同樣慢慢累積民怨的融資公司事件，其實融資公司的事件，大家都知道主管機關不是金管會，但是因為它跟現在在場的公營行庫及其他的民間銀行一樣，都跟金融借貸是相關聯的，所以很多事情就直接會問金管會，那你要不要處理？你要不要管？主委，我只問一個簡單的問題，就是銀行的借貸在金管會的高度監理之下，其實必須要遵守非常多的法遵、風控等等，銀行各種的借貸，不論是車貸、房貸，就你所瞭解，利率最低和最高的範圍大概是多少？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這要看貸款人的信用風險。"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["黃主任委員天牧：當然不可能貸到16%，現在利率也很低，尤其有1%的，實務上我不敢亂講，在座都是金融界先進，講錯了不太好。"],["林委員楚茵：好，至少不會高達16%，甚至是10%左右就已經是多數他們能夠承擔的風險，因為只要符合法規。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["林委員楚茵：那您知道在融資公司當中，雖然有民法規定的16%，但是是不是真的都有用其他的方式，用乾坤大挪移的方法，把這樣的利率墊高？是不是有？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有。用其他的名目，包括違約金，那違約金的部分，我們這次就有處理。"],["林委員楚茵：好，沒錯。所以金管會注意到問題了。照理說，這些融資公司的主管機關應該就是經濟部，對不對？算經濟部？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想目前各方面各部會都有就各自所管的部分去做處理，大家都有在合作。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以有合作嘛，我請陳政次。"],["陳次長正祺：是，委員好。"],["林委員楚茵：剛剛我聽到前面的委員在詢答的時候有特別提到，行政院現在有注意到這個事情了，所以有一個跨部會之間的聯絡或平台了嗎？包括過去大家都知道的，剛剛前面也提到的聯徵中心的問題，但是聯徵中心不是會員就不能查，大家現在想講的其實就是，大家擔心的就是一個潛藏在我們看不到水面底下的金融危機存在著，所以有沒有可能建立所謂的第二平台？那這個第二平台是公開的嗎？那這個第二平台，經濟部會來介入嗎？因為它現在就不是金管會高度監理的這些銀行，因為銀行是有聯徵中心，那這個平台會建立嗎？如果建立的話，是經濟部來協助嗎？那這個資訊可以怎麼樣統合出來？因為我想強調的是，這些融資公司還是找公股行庫或民營行庫來借貸，這些借貸當中，我們都知道，如果它今天信用擔保可行，擔保品足夠，它就去找銀行了，我們擔憂的就是那些經濟弱勢的人去找融資公司，那就有可能產生我們看不到的金融監理的瑕疵。我想請問的是，現在大家關注的就是那個看不到的水位部分有沒有可能現形，那這個部分到底誰會是主管機關？又或者說是要帶回去，請行政院來做跨部會處理，就像當時打詐一樣。來，政次。"],["陳次長正祺：是。報告委員，委員所問的，正好就是我們覺得最重要的問題。"],["林委員楚茵：是。"],["陳次長正祺：目前來講，借貸基本上是民法上的借貸行為，而且融資公司目前並沒有這個登記的業別，他們不能登記為融資公司，所以我們現在是用公司名稱撈出來可能涉及的公司，那怎麼來處理這個民間的借貸行為？我們還需要跨部會來討論。在目前這個部分，經濟部是負責有關消費者保護的部分，金管會是負責金融體系安全的部分，我們大家一起來想想看，怎麼樣找到政策工具來管理。"],["林委員楚茵：好，我知道在520之前，大家恐怕都覺得必須要等，但是民眾的這個東西等不了。","最後，請部長到這裡，是因為大家也都提到了，公股行庫不要到最後揹上不必要的罵名，包括這些融資公司，如果他們真的有一些不法行為或不法情事，我希望你們能夠跟經濟部、金管會多一點橫向聯繫，那這些就要被列為重點項目觀察的拒絕往來戶，好嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。"],["林委員楚茵：我提醒的是，不要讓公股行庫變成好像是第一線要出來承擔。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，是，謝謝委員。"],["林委員楚茵：好，那我也期許，希望你們在短期內做跨部會的協商。","最後還是要說，黃主委，您辛苦了，其實您勇於任事的表現，我們身為財政委員會的委員，都是非常瞭解的。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林楚茵委員質詢。","接著我們請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-8","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","王世堅","顏寬恒","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","羅明才","林楚茵","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","吳春城","陳亭妃","王定宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就\n「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":8.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.902843750000002,"end":10.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.375343750000003,"end":12.855968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.919093750000002,"end":14.594093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.52221875,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.59784375,"end":18.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.72409375,"end":20.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.37784375,"end":23.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.97221875,"end":119.21909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.01221875,"end":125.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.08721875,"end":127.85909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.29784375,"end":135.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.77346875,"end":136.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.56659375,"end":148.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.27784375000002,"end":149.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.76284375,"end":157.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.18346875,"end":172.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.62596875,"end":161.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.16846875000002,"end":189.92534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.71846875,"end":194.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.00471875000002,"end":200.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.59034375000002,"end":208.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.07846875,"end":209.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.11221875,"end":216.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.14596875,"end":209.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.85784375,"end":220.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.14846875,"end":221.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.36346875,"end":270.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.41909375,"end":274.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.83596875,"end":282.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.17659375,"end":284.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.42096875000004,"end":320.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.17909375,"end":335.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.00534375,"end":326.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.80971875,"end":355.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.53659375,"end":401.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.97096875,"end":384.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.81471875,"end":384.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.93284375,"end":384.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.06721875000005,"end":389.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.53534375000004,"end":391.17659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.84159375,"end":403.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.11159375000005,"end":402.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.30534375,"end":405.94221875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.549,"end":22.968,"text":"謝謝主席。主席,有請黃天牧黃主委、莊志榮莊部長以及我們陳正琦、陳正次。好,黃主委、莊部長、陳正次。好,午安好。主委辛苦了。午安好。早,午安。首先我要先請黃主委。"},{"start":24.994,"end":46.24,"text":"主委您真的是辛苦了過去其實在上一屆的財政委員會當中其實我們共同一起解決了許多的問題我想其實面對這個金融監理不是一件容易的事情尤其是身為一個監理機關坦白講監理這件事情是顧人願的我自己過去在媒體的時候坦白說我們在媒體的時候是最"},{"start":47,"end":73.875,"text":"怕也最討厭NCC說實話就是這樣那麼所以說面對許多的風雨我想您心裡非常清楚但是其實您承擔下來了包括其實就在上一屆的會期的最後我們在講打詐的時候詐騙這件事情它其實根本沒有主管機關來統一來處理那麼當時我們就想到了如果說是這種不法不實的金融方面的這樣的一個廣告我們可以用"},{"start":74.315,"end":101.398,"text":"同樣來規範那麼就當時就修了這個相關的法規讓金管會至少能夠及時的下架網路上的詐騙的事件那麼其實對於當時包括您在內金管會的同仁大家能夠跨部會的合作這件事情其實是我非常有感的那您是真的非常勇於認識那麼因為我的時間有限我其實要切進我的主題就不讓您回答"},{"start":102.619,"end":118.686,"text":"對那就是剛剛其實前面非常多財政委員會的委員們都詢問了就是有關於這一次同樣也慢慢的在累積起民怨的就是融資公司的事件其實融資公司的事件大家都知道主管機關不是金管會"},{"start":120.066,"end":135.101,"text":"但是因為他跟現在在場的包括公營銀行庫以及其他的民間銀行一樣他都跟這個金融所謂借貸當中是相關聯的所以很多事情就直接會問金管會那你要不要處理你要不要管那麼"},{"start":136.656,"end":156.906,"text":"主委我只問一個簡單的問題喔就是銀行的借貸他因為在金管會的高度監理之下他其實必須要遵守非常多的法尊、封控等等銀行各種的借貸不論是車貸、房貸他的利率最低跟最高的範圍大概是多少如果就您所了解"},{"start":158.386,"end":172.765,"text":"這要看他的這個貸款人的信用風險當然不可能到16了當然就是現在利率也很低啊也許1%怎麼樣這個我想我沒有實務上我不敢亂講在座都是金融界先進他講錯了不太好"},{"start":173.186,"end":189.628,"text":"好,但至少他不會高達到16%甚至是10左右大概就是已經多數這個他們能夠承擔的風險因為這要符合法規那您知道在融資公司當中雖然有民法規定的16%但是是不是真的都有用其他的方式"},{"start":190.785,"end":206.915,"text":"用乾坤大農藝的方法把這樣的利率墊高是不是有有有其他的名目比方說違約金那違約金部分我們這次就有處理好沒錯所以金管會其實注意到問題了那照理說這些融資公司應該主管機關就是財政經濟部了嘛對不對"},{"start":209.056,"end":211.137,"text":"剛剛我聽到前面的委員在詢答的時候是有特別提到行政院現在有注意到這個事情了"},{"start":228.647,"end":249.802,"text":"所以有一個所謂的跨部會之間的一個聯絡或平台了嗎?包括我知道過去大家剛剛前面也提到了聯徵中心的問題但是聯徵中心不是會員你不能查大家現在其實想講的就是他擔心的是一個潛藏在我們看不到的水面底下的金融危機它存在著"},{"start":250.302,"end":269.492,"text":"所以有沒有可能建立所謂的第二平台那這個第二平台它是公開的嗎那這個第二平台經濟部會來介入嗎因為它現在它就不是金管會高度監理的這些銀行因為銀行是有連徵中心那這個平台會建立嗎如果建立的話是經濟部來做協助嗎那這個資訊可以怎麼樣來統合出來因為我想強調的是"},{"start":276.088,"end":292.325,"text":"這些融資東西他還是找我們的民營的所謂不論是公股行庫或是民營行庫來做借貸那麼這些到底借貸當中因為我們都知道如果他今天信用擔保可行他擔保品足夠他就去找銀行了"},{"start":292.585,"end":292.765,"text":"來正次"},{"start":321.238,"end":347.455,"text":"是 報告委員 委員所問的正好就是我們覺得最重要的問題啦目前來講的話借貸基本上是個民法上的借貸行為而且融資公司目前並沒有這個登記的業別他們不能登記為融資公司所以我們現在用公司名稱方式去把他撈出來可能涉及的公司他怎麼來處理這個民間的借貸行為我們還需要跨部會來討論在目前這個部分經濟部負責是有關消費者的保護這個部分"},{"start":348.716,"end":366.87,"text":"金管委是負責金融體系的安全的部分那我們大家一起來想想看怎麼樣來找到政策工具來管理好我知道因為在520之前呢恐怕就像這個大家都都覺得說好像要等但是民眾的這個東西是等不了最後請部長在這裡是因為大家也都提到了那公股、行庫喔"},{"start":367.591,"end":388.723,"text":"不要最後背上了不必要的罵名包括這些融資公司如果他們真的有一些不法的行為或不法情勢希望能夠跟經濟部跟金管會多一點橫向的聯繫那這些就要把它列為重點項目的觀察的拒絕往來戶好嗎提醒的是不要讓供股行戶變成是好像第一線要出來承擔"},{"start":390.605,"end":390.906,"text":"何茂凱委員"}]}},{"id":"151301","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151301","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627475b382dfe6f7e02068d0b55d8f96a4ec5dab72e655c1c9413ba9401abf90a7b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:11:27 - 12:24:25","影片長度":"00:12:58","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":778,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:24:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:11:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":426,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（12時11分）你好，我請部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：陳委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。今天是潛艦國造相關的機密會報，我不想就技術細節來討論，因為這些技術細節說實在話，對於民眾的溝通上面，它除了增加理解的難度之外，它是屬於包含軍中或者是真的是在研究這一部分的人，所必須要去做技術細節的討論。但是對於風險溝通或者是對於我們民眾的溝通來講，我認為我們必須要很清晰的跟民眾談，目的的導向是什麼。我們從目的的導向來討論，為什麼需要潛艦？因應什麼樣的挑戰我們需要潛艦？部長可不可以不是像對我說的，也是對所有的民眾來簡單的讓他們知道這些基本的國防常識。"],["邱部長國正：我了解，一個國家要做防衛的話，主要還是要靠國防的力量，而國防力量包含了建軍跟備戰。將來要發展什麼樣戰爭，這是一直在研判的，為了因應將來作戰，我們要自我防衛，達到這個目標，我們要發展不對稱的戰爭。什麼叫不對稱？就是以我們比較簡單的裝備，對付你這個大，但是不好發揮的這個力量，這就叫不對稱。那潛艦不是這樣子嗎？如果一艘潛艦在某個地方潛到水裡面，你看水面艦它的顧慮有時候很多，就拿這種來做一個簡單描述，就是我們要強化我們戰力。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以潛艦它能夠發揮不對稱的戰力，它可以使出它的震懾的能量，讓敵方的水面艦會覺得受到威脅，所以會三思去決定是否要來進行對臺灣的攻擊。它是屬於戰略性的，能夠震懾的武器系統，可以這麼說嗎？"],["邱部長國正：可以這樣講，從戰略到戰術都會發生一個關聯性，可以這樣講。"],["陳委員冠廷：那為什麼要自主？為什麼在潛艦的這部分要國造，而不是透過採購的方式？"],["邱部長國正：好，跟委員報告，我們講的有形戰力、無形戰力，不是什麼賣弄的學問。有形戰力大家一聽就懂，什麼叫有形戰力？就是你有偵蒐的能力，偵蒐到敵情以後，你有傳達的通訊能力。第三，你有通訊能力得到敵情以後，你要去把它摧毀掉，要有機動能力跟要有足夠的火力。這四樣以後還有一樣更重要的後支力，什麼叫後支力？後續支援的能力，假如一個國家的裝備沒有辦法自我生產的話，一切找外購，外國裝備來，打掉一樣少一樣。可是自己有這個能耐建的話，打掉一架我再建一架。這個就是源源不斷的後支力，是重要有形戰力的一環。我想所以叫國機國造、國艦國造，聽了以後看有沒有這個必要，你就很明朗了。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長，所以在面對這樣的挑戰的時候，可是我們現在面臨到的，可能不是需要十年、二十年之後才會面臨到的挑戰。其實各國的智庫都直接提到一個關鍵的年份，好像是2027年，那我們採取國艦國造這樣的狀況的話，有沒有辦法去因應立即的威脅？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，任何一個建軍，它是一個長遠的一個目標，但是我們難保達到目標之前沒有戰事發生，所以建軍跟備戰最大的差別在哪裡？建軍是未來的仗，你要籌獲跟軍備的支持，一件一件籌獲。但是備戰呢？你在籌獲當中敵人來了，我不能講我那邊還沒出來，你先不要過來，這不可能，所以這就是備戰的範疇。備戰就是說，你現在有什麼裝備，我們就要去應對。我們在建軍以外，這個備戰的工作是每天在做，每一年都要做檢討的。我們有十年建軍構想，五年的兵力整建計畫，但是唯獨備戰計畫是每一年要修訂。這就是為什麼我們要做漢光演習，為什麼要做專精管道，為什麼要做基地訓練，這個成效、這個建設，就是為了備戰。所以不管達到沒有，那是未來的，能夠有最好，但是總比我們連計畫都沒有，那未來是遙遙無期的，但我們在等待未來當中，我們現在有狀況來，一定要可以因應，正因為我們有備戰的概念。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長，我為什麼問這些問題？從戰略性的問題開始講，可能大家會覺得是理所當然，可能甚至會覺得是不證自明的，它不需要被證明的、它不需要被解釋的。其實我們談論到的時候通常都不是以目標，比方說目標的導向是什麼，而是都已經確認我們要做這件案子了，我們要建這一個計畫了，然後我們再來闡述怎麼樣完成這件事情。但是目標要高於手段，我們先知道它的震懾性在哪裡，我們才有辦法一直談下去。","其實部長可能不知道，在我們的這些各個不同的社群媒體或者是在電視上面，都有很多人在討論，甚至有所謂的潛艦無用論。所以我們必須透過國會的殿堂，讓你用部長的身分來跟民眾談，它為什麼有這樣的震懾性。我想未來不管下一任的部長是誰，他都有責任來做好這些風險的溝通。","我們不斷談2027年，有這麼多的智庫學者來談這件事情的時候，我可以發覺到我們的經濟成長率都是不斷的在上升，我們對臺灣的投資也不斷的在上升。這有兩種可能性，一種可能性是國人跟國際社會對我們的建軍，覺得絕對有實力，覺得有能力。第二種可能性就是，我們把所有的可能潛在的風險，直接把它看成是零。因為看成是零的話，所以對自己的自信會不斷的成長，但是這不可以成為常態。就是說事實上的威脅就在對面，所以我為什麼要先從潛艦的這個部分說它的震懾性是什麼？為什麼要有這個目的性？為什麼要在國會的殿堂上講出來？就是必須要讓民眾知道這是有可能發生的。衝突是有可能發生，我們必須要面對它。","這樣子的建軍，不管是剛才提到的是2,800多億，還是多少億，我認為有一定的震懾性都是必要的。可是這個時候我們看到，我們現在的國防預算大概是6,000多億，占我國的GDP只有2.5%。我不希望我們國家是像烏克蘭一樣，在2022年之前他們國家的國防預算占比，從1.5%開始逐年遞升到3%、2%左右，直到2022年之後才一舉提高到33%。33%在當初已經面臨到戰爭的時候，那時候的投入就沒有辦法像剛才部長提到的，面臨現在、面臨未來的威脅它都沒有辦法去因應了。","其實很多，包含澤倫斯基總統都不斷的提到，他們的防空系統不足，能夠防空的導彈也不足，沒有辦法面臨到俄羅斯這樣子的襲擊。我的意思是，遇到這樣子的狀況的時候，我們必須要事先考量，因為面臨中國的挑戰是比俄羅斯，不管是他們的生產力量，剛才你提到國防自主，中國也國防自主，他能夠不斷的補充他的彈藥，不斷補充他的各型式的不管是水面艦、水下艦，或者是這些空軍的武器建置。所以我必須請部長，或者是我們國防部的這些官員能夠來先預想一下，假設我們面臨到像烏克蘭一樣的狀況的時候，我們的國防預算要怎麼樣逐年增加？我們當然在承平時間是不可能會一舉直接超過10%以上，但是面臨到相對威脅跟臺灣類似的國家，比方說以色列，他們的國防占比是多少？比方說這些面臨在旁邊有直接的侵襲的可能性，他們的國防占比是多少？是像我們一樣2.5%嗎？部長是不是可以簡單的回應一下。"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，假如遇到戰爭再討論國防預算要怎麼樣增加，白搭！沒有意義的。但我們現在做的就是預防戰爭發生，這是講真話。我們為什麼那邊要紛紛擾擾呢？臺灣是個多元的社會，每一個人他要怎麼講是他的自由，他的認知如何，我無權過問，也不能去干涉。但我們已經看到這種形態，假如他的內心有主宰的話，他不會有所動。像我剛剛很信心滿滿的跟委員講，假如你知道目標為何，然後每隔多久要建或者要編列預算，我們內心有主宰，不會因為你講一句話，有用沒用我們要考慮，對喔！他說沒有用，不會的，因為建軍跟備戰我們劃分很清楚。","假如你要讓全民通通有共同認知的話，我覺得國防部大概沒有很大的能力去改變這個，因為這已經牽扯到其他方面的領域了。不管有心無心的，我不去多做考慮，但是目前國軍在做的一切，就剛剛委員所質疑的，一旦俄羅斯戰爭這種形態發生了再編多少預算，我的答案是編沒有用，因為到時候已經來不及了。所以我們現在編列預算，現在籌獲的就是預防，不要讓那一幕發生。這個投資看划得來划不來，我覺得挹注一些經費不讓戰爭發生絕對值得的。"],["陳委員冠廷：讓現在的投資決定未來的威脅，如果現在少投資，那未來的威脅就會相對的增高。","部長，我接下來談一下跟潛艦比較沒有直接關係，但是跟國防部關於食安的議題。國防部關於食安的議題，當然就是在臺北市的寶林事件，那影響到其他這些包含供應我們的這些餐點或者是採購的部分。其實對於我們嘉義地區來說，那其實是很多無妄之災，我們已經聽到很多鄉親來反映，包含各種的這一些我們的農業。我們在嘉義不管是稻米產業或者是木耳等等，都有反映這些供應站它是進行統一採買，但是目前聽起來是因為這些事件之後，減少整體的大概一成左右。我們必須要強調一下，在臺北市發生的這個食安裡面，都沒有上述講到的那些食材，都沒有發生問題。衛福部也是正式的有討論過，也直接說在他們採檢的35項食材裡面，不包含這些的農產品。那對臺灣，對嘉義來說，特別是對我們的鄉鎮中埔鄉，它的木耳產量，基本上是全國大概是超過5成以上，所以說這一次的食安案件，其實對於國防部的部分，馬上的反映，其實我們是有一點憂心。我們還是希望我們的基層部隊，因應這個食安的部分，是要針對這樣的問題，而不是針對我們這樣的產品，那是沒有關聯的，是不是可以請部長來跟他們講一下？"],["邱部長國正：我了解，委員現在擔憂的很多事情，講白了就是無妄之災。"],["陳委員冠廷：對。"],["邱部長國正：但國軍這個副供站，它的成立是有規定的。我們有25個副供站，全國包含外離島，但這裡面的規範就有一條，就是當衛福部或有關單位一旦提出警訊了，我們絕對配合，但我們這個配合也就界定它講的幾個項目，它沒有講的，我們不會增加，就是菇菌類的，連黑木耳、白木耳什麼都加，我們沒有這樣子。而且現在辦伙是各單位的權責，我們不給它禁止，但我不能去鼓勵。我就跟委員講明很多都是無妄之災，國軍有很多都無妄之災啊！我們知道這個嚴重性，大為宣導可以，但是菜單是他們自己單位的決定，我不會去主導。"],["陳委員冠廷：宣導。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請賴士葆委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-13","speakers":["馬文君","林楚茵","黃仁","陳永康","羅美玲","王定宇","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","李柏毅","洪孟楷","羅智強","林憶君","王鴻薇","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢（含秘密會議）","agenda_id":"1133001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.55409375,"end":1.5834687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.95471875,"end":2.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.74159375,"end":15.775343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.775343750000001,"end":16.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.43346875,"end":16.500968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.922843750000002,"end":17.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.69909375,"end":22.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.96409375,"end":23.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.976593750000003,"end":32.346593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.68409375,"end":35.080343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.36721875,"end":39.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.704093750000006,"end":41.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.37034375,"end":46.470968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.85909375,"end":49.727843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.01471875,"end":53.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.79471875,"end":55.009718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.212218750000005,"end":57.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.064093750000005,"end":58.705343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.26221875,"end":64.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.07596875,"end":99.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.16721875,"end":100.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.92659375000001,"end":104.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.80784375,"end":109.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.65096875,"end":128.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.38221875000002,"end":136.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.00534375,"end":138.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.43971875,"end":143.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.23221875000002,"end":165.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.55784375000002,"end":172.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.51034375,"end":179.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.88471875000002,"end":181.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.77471875,"end":183.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.85034375,"end":196.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.50221875000003,"end":199.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.66221875000002,"end":200.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.13034375,"end":210.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.83346875,"end":212.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.22971875000002,"end":215.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.89596875,"end":222.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.94971875000002,"end":241.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.11846875,"end":223.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.29284375,"end":242.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.67659375000002,"end":243.09846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.62159375000002,"end":244.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.80284375000002,"end":247.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.45221875000001,"end":252.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.25721875000002,"end":255.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.65346875000003,"end":256.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.20596875,"end":280.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.67909375,"end":281.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.33721875000003,"end":284.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.94846875,"end":286.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.80471875,"end":289.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.34846875,"end":298.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.42721875,"end":299.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.52409375,"end":332.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.87346875000003,"end":362.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.06284375,"end":365.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.31971875000005,"end":378.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.84096875,"end":381.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.96284375000005,"end":382.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.19471875000005,"end":399.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.63096875,"end":405.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.43159375000005,"end":408.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.33409375,"end":411.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.01721875000004,"end":417.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.00784375,"end":422.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.49221875,"end":429.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.39846875,"end":438.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.96659375,"end":448.90596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.74971875000006,"end":455.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.34784375000004,"end":463.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.67159375000006,"end":485.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.82846875,"end":510.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.14096875,"end":516.6928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.7053437500001,"end":519.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.49846875,"end":524.4722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.9109687499999,"end":525.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.09221875,"end":528.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.41659375,"end":530.4965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.7665937500001,"end":532.5047187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.1628437500001,"end":538.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.57971875,"end":549.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.24471875,"end":567.0984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.45284375,"end":570.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.5747187500001,"end":575.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.6540937500001,"end":590.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.5209687500001,"end":600.1059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.6628437500001,"end":604.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.37096875,"end":607.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.8347187500001,"end":615.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.35659375,"end":626.1609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.75159375,"end":631.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.25721875,"end":636.1172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.47159375,"end":649.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.56659375,"end":683.8059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.99159375,"end":717.7078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":715.5478437500001,"end":740.8603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":741.3159687500001,"end":754.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.34346875,"end":762.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":762.7978437500001,"end":775.0828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":775.6397187500002,"end":777.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":778.3059687500001,"end":778.9640937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.503,"end":0.903,"text":"今天是《潛艦國造》相關的機密的匯報"},{"start":23.038,"end":40.943,"text":"那我不想就技術細節來去討論因為這些技術細節說實在話對於民眾的溝通上面它除了增加理解的難度之外它是屬於包含軍中或者是真的是在研究這一部分的人所必須要去做技術細節的討論"},{"start":42.823,"end":54.308,"text":"但是對於風險溝通或者是對於我們民眾的溝通來講那我認為我們必須要很清晰的跟民眾談目的的導向是什麼我們從目的的導向來去討論為什麼需要潛艦因應什麼樣的挑戰我們需要潛艦"},{"start":58.129,"end":72.636,"text":"部長可不可以不是這樣對我說而是對大概所有的民眾來去簡單的讓他們知道我了解一個國家認為一個國家要做防衛的話它主要還是要靠國防的力量而國防力量包含了建軍跟備戰那將來要發展什麼樣戰爭這是一直在研判的"},{"start":76.358,"end":99.311,"text":"為了因應將來作戰,我們要自我防衛,達到這個目標,我們要發展不對稱的戰爭。什麼叫不對稱?就以我們比較簡單的裝備,對付你這個大但是不好發揮的力量,這就叫不對稱。那潛艦不是這樣子嗎?如果一艘潛艦在某個地方潛到水底邊,"},{"start":100.111,"end":108.738,"text":"所以潛艦它能夠發揮它不對稱的戰力它可以使出它的震懾的能量讓敵方的水面艦然後會覺得受到威脅那所以會三思來去決定是否要來進行對台灣的攻擊所以它是屬於"},{"start":128.454,"end":153.249,"text":"可以這樣講?從戰略到戰術都會發生一個相關關聯性我可以這樣講那為什麼要自主?為什麼在潛艦的這一個要國造而不是透過採購的方式?好跟委員報告我們講的有型戰力無型戰力不是什麼賣弄的學問有型戰力大家一聽就懂什麼叫有型戰力?就是你有徵收的能力"},{"start":153.849,"end":178.818,"text":"曾說到敵情以後你有傳達的通訊的能力第三你有通訊能力得到的敵情以後你要去把它給摧毀掉要有激動能力跟你要有足夠的火力這四樣以後還有一樣更重要的後支力什麼叫後支力後續支援的能力假如一個國家的裝備它沒有辦法自我來生產的話一切找的外購"},{"start":179.958,"end":200.51,"text":"外國裝備來打掉一樣掃一樣可是至於我這能耐建的話我打掉一架我另外再建一架這個就源源不斷的後之力這是重要有形戰略一環我想所以這國機國造國艦國造聽了以後看以後這個必要就很明朗了"},{"start":201.192,"end":216.463,"text":"部長所以在面對我們這樣的挑戰的時候可是我們現在面臨到的可能不是需要10年20年之後才會面臨到的挑戰就是各國的智庫都直接提到說一個關鍵的年份好像2027年那我們"},{"start":217.303,"end":241.771,"text":"採取國艦國造的這樣的狀況的話有沒有辦法去因應立即的威脅我跟委員報告任何建軍它是一個長遠的一個目標但是我們南寶想達到目標之前沒有戰事發生所以建軍跟備戰最大的差別在哪裡建軍是未來的戰你要籌貨跟軍備要支持一件件籌貨但是"},{"start":244.132,"end":267.84,"text":"備戰呢,你在籌貨當中敵人來了,我不能講我都還沒出來,你先不要過來,那不可能,所以這就備戰範疇。備戰就是說你現在你有什麼裝備,我們就要去應對。那我們在建軍以外,這個備戰工作是每天在做,每一年都要做檢討的。我有十年建軍構想,五年的兵力整建計畫,但是唯獨"},{"start":268.76,"end":269.501,"text":"﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷"},{"start":299.661,"end":321.08,"text":"謝謝部長我為什麼問這些問題從戰略性的問題開始講可能大家會覺得是理所當然可能甚至會覺得是不證自明的它不需要被證明的它不需要被解釋的那其實我們談論到的時候都是通常都是以不是以目標比方說目標的導向是什麼而是都已經確認我們要做這件案子了我們要建這一個計畫了"},{"start":322.481,"end":322.601,"text":"﹚陳冠廷"},{"start":351.883,"end":355.666,"text":"下一任的部長是誰他都有責任來做好這些風險的溝通"},{"start":382.023,"end":382.523,"text":"﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷﹚陳冠廷﹚"},{"start":409.361,"end":437.031,"text":"我認為有一定的正確性都是必要的可是這個時候我們看到說我們現在的國防預算大概是6000多與佔我們我國的GDP只有2.5%那我不希望說我們國家他是像烏克蘭一樣在正2022年之前他們國家的佔比國防預算佔比從1.5%開始逐年遞升到3%2%左右直到2022年之後才一舉提高到33%"},{"start":440.069,"end":461.741,"text":"33%在當初已經面臨到戰爭的時候你現在那時候的投入就沒有辦法像剛才部長你提到的面臨現在面臨未來的威脅他都沒有辦法去因應了那其實很多包含這一個責任司機總統他們都不斷的在提到說他們的防空系統不足能夠防空的導彈也不足沒有辦法面臨到俄羅斯的這樣子的襲擊"},{"start":463.835,"end":485.348,"text":"我的意思是說遇到這樣子的狀況的時候我們必須要事先考量因為面臨中國的挑戰是比俄羅斯不管是他們的生產力量剛才你提到國防自主中國也國防自主他能夠不斷的補充他的彈藥不斷補充他的各型式的不管是水面艦水下艦或者是這些空軍的武器建制"},{"start":485.988,"end":509.998,"text":"所以我必須要請部長或者是我們國防部的這些官員能夠來先預想一下假設我們面臨到像烏克蘭一樣的狀況的時候我們的國防預算要怎麼樣逐年增加我們當然在成平時間是不可能會一舉直接超過10%以上但是面臨到相對威脅跟台灣類似的國家比方說以色列他們的國防占比是多少"},{"start":511.169,"end":513.37,"text":"我跟委員報告喔,假如遇到戰爭在討論這個國防運動戰怎麼樣增加了,白搭,沒有意義的,但我們現在在做的就是預防戰爭發生"},{"start":529.628,"end":553.902,"text":"這是講真話。我們為什麼那麼樣紛紛擾擾的?台南這個地方社會是個多餘的社會。每一個人他要怎麼講,他自由。他的認知如何,我無權過問,也不能去干涉。但我們已經看到這種形態,假如他內心有主宰的話,他不會所動。我剛剛很信心滿滿跟委員講,假如你知道目標為何,"},{"start":555.163,"end":555.283,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":575.822,"end":599.905,"text":"但我覺得我國防部大概沒有很大能力去改變這個因為這已經牽扯到有些其他方面的領域了不管有心無心的我不去多做考慮但是我目前國軍在做的一切就剛剛委員所質疑的一旦惡武戰這種形態發生了再編多少預算我的答案就編沒有用了因為到時候已經來不及了"},{"start":600.726,"end":606.291,"text":"現在的投資決定未來的威脅如果現在少投資那未來的威脅就會相對的增高部長我接下來談一下"},{"start":627.123,"end":648.095,"text":"前件比較沒有直接關係但是是跟國防部關於實案的議題那關於實案的議題當然就是在台北市的這個保齡的事件那影響到其他這些包含這些供應我們的這些餐點或者是採購的部分那其實對於我們嘉義地區來說那其實是很多無望之災我們已經聽到很多鄉親來反映"},{"start":649.696,"end":649.996,"text":"衛福部也正式討論"},{"start":679.389,"end":679.469,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":695.495,"end":697.776,"text":"我了解,我現在擔憂很多事情講白就無望之災"},{"start":722.364,"end":729.23,"text":"但國軍這個複共戰它成立它是有規定的我們講25個複共戰全國包含外離島但這裡面的規範就有一條就是當衛福部或有關單位一旦提出警訊了我們絕對配合"},{"start":741.42,"end":761.81,"text":"但我這配合也就界定他講的幾個項目他沒有講的我們部會講的增加估計類的黑幕白幕我沒有這樣子而且現在半火是各單位的權責我們不給他禁止但我不能去鼓勵我就跟委員講明"},{"start":762.85,"end":762.91,"text":"：陳冠廷"}]}},{"id":"151300","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151300","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627b53b57d020fc77820915613d02a5e1dcc5dab72e655c1c94ff529b70f8b4f9b25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:12:53 - 12:24:19","影片長度":"00:11:26","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（4月17日及18日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":686,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:24:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:12:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":734,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時12分）謝謝召委，有請潘部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["范委員雲：部長，午安！今天大家關心的問題就是「少子女化的浪潮，大專院校如何因應」，首先，我要先幫花蓮大漢技術學院的師生跟部長請命，我知道剛剛林宜瑾委員也有問這一題，因為我早上有跟他們一起開記者會，我覺得這個個案非常重要，部長應該記得，當時我們在修私校退場條例的時候，我個人是主張同步修私校法，因為我知道私校法的目的不是為了退場，它對退場的規範相對比較寬鬆，可是當時因為很多原因，所以我們沒有辦法一起修私校法，所以現在大漢技術學院等於是突襲教育部和它的師生，它在財務還沒有看到問題的時候就要退場，我要講的是退場本身不是一個問題，因為現在的確因為少子化，所以學校很多，可是在退場的過程中要如何保障師生的權益，還有校產公共性的評估，我覺得這個教育部有責任。因為剛剛民間團體有很多的指責，他們擔心董事會在財產方面可能有滿多議題，會淪為私人，教育部這邊是不是可以依照私校法，就是你們有的法律工具，嚴格審查它相關的退場計畫好嗎？包含師生權益，還有財產公共性要如何保障？"],["潘部長文忠：是，跟委員報告，確實依照目前教育部所掌握到的大漢技術學院並沒有進入私校退場條例裡相關的指標，目前它的董事會反而是依私校法主動提出。"],["范委員雲：主動退場。"],["潘部長文忠：但是目前都還在程序過程，第一個，它校內本來就有校務會議、董事會，如果它真的通過了、得到共識，它才有機會提報到教育部。目前這個計畫還沒有到教育部，教育部會如同委員剛才所提醒的，你要提出退場相關的計畫，包含教職員工的權益、學生的權益、校地的後續使用，這些私校法都有規範，校地不是任由董事會處理，不會是這樣，所以後續教育部會依法來做審查和把關。"],["范委員雲：好，請教育部依法嚴格審查，重點是要確保師生的權益。我也跟部長講一下，我手上有拿到那次他們宣布要退場的校務會議資料，最後一個臨時提案的內容是：「維護學生權益、教學品質，讓學生受教權受到保障，提請審議」，因為它有很多花蓮在地的學生，花蓮那麼大，你要他離開花蓮去別的學校，這是嚴重傷害學生的權益。當天出席的有27位，同意19票，反對0票，等於是全場無異議通過，可是現在他們有很多措施已經違反校務會議的決議，這個就大學法來講也是有問題的，好不好？請部長嚴格幫忙監督，我後續也會關心。"],["潘部長文忠：好，這是教育部的職責。"],["范委員雲：再來，相關的問題，因為今天我們討論了很多有關教改、大學退場的部分，裡面一直都有講到410教改，跟部長報告一下，我當年也有參加410，我是學生代表之一，所以我非常瞭解當時的四大訴求，也非常瞭解教改前學校的困境，我們這個世代是在有體罰的情況下，像部長講的，小學一班有六十幾個人，我們現在開同學會的時候，同學還會分享當年看到老師體罰學生留下來的創傷，我們目睹的創傷都還在，所以這裡面有非常多的教育改革是進步的，可是現在大家爭執的這一點就是廣設高中、大學是不是目前的病源？然後大家都執著是不是要李遠哲負責？我是沒有研究過這一題，就是誰該負責，可是我覺得有一個歷史事實很重要，因為當年的領導者是黃武雄教授，黃武雄是410的精神和理念的領導者，我有找到他的一篇文章，我想跟大家分享，他2021年在關鍵評論上怎麼講？他說：「410民間教改的訴求是臺灣應在5到10年內，讓年輕人進大學的機會提高到美國的54%，甚至達到加拿大的60%以上，但我擔心當時的政府目光短淺，那時是1994年，他們會便宜行事」，後面我暫時不唸，「把高職專校升格為大學，結果大幅降低大學的品質」，下一段，「1996年吳京上任教育部長提出第二國道的構想，果然要大量升格公私立技職專校，私營教改人士到教育部前抗議，要求好好廣設公立大學，並指出公私立學校的不同定位」，跳過一段，然後「我找時任教育立委王拓向吳部長陳述利害，可惜吳部長堅持如故」，後面「第二國道一旦通車，這些升格的技術學校與大學便成了龐大利益集團、尾大不掉，他們的存在阻撓了日後廣設新的、有水準的公立大學的任何提議」，這是當時410遊行教育領導者黃武雄的看法，他認為廣設高中、大學的問題是出在當時升格的方式，我不知道潘部長怎麼評定這件事情？因為這件事情每一任部長都有責任，你做了8年，所以我比較想問的事情是，歷史究責應該是要交給歷史學家去研究，我想問的是，到現在為止，至少我們看到當年那種便宜行事的升格方式，的確在少子化的過程中，我們現在面臨退場的問題，民團人士，當然，剛剛也有人講過，他們認為未來8年至少有40所的大專院校會退場，事實是不是這樣子？我不知道，但是我看到林萬億政委的回應是：「私校退場問題不會再惡化」，然後他提出的解方是：「各校朝精緻化教學發展」，請問潘部長，您是否認同這就是解方？就是林萬億政委講的朝緻化教學發展，這樣問題就可以解決？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，確實少子化後的生源都是客觀的數據，以目前臺灣大專校院的規模，這確實會出現招生等各方面的限制。至於大學後續的發展，其實教育部一直都希望可以再努力，為什麼我們一直說大學可以做，就如林萬億政委講的，因為這是其中一種型態，就是可以發展精緻、有特色的教學來經營。另外一個，尤其是面對新南向國家，其實他們還是有很多年輕人對臺灣……"],["范委員雲：我知道，就是國際生。"],["潘部長文忠：對，其實這方面這幾年有相當的突破，所以我想可以運用這樣的方式來做。"],["范委員雲：部長，因為時間的緣故，容許我先打斷您。至少今天的報告我比較沒有看到你們有精緻化教學的方案，我要提醒您，到底要如何精緻化教學？還有刪減科系整合的問題，因為我們現在看到的幾個例子，包含輔大要廢掉哲學系，據說至少正在考慮；世新要廢掉中文系、真理要廢掉臺文系，這些私立大學在縮編的過程中，好像都是優先把人文社會科學當成犧牲品，這是個別學校招生利益的考量，這個部分我就先不深究，我想要講的是，這是不是國家社會的利益？","各位看一下，臺灣人文社科學生的比例真的太高了嗎？如果我們跟OECD比，臺灣人文社科學生的比例是22%；OECD平均是29.4%；韓國是28.6%；日本是32%，這些國家表現不好嗎？如果我們跟美國比，我們又遠遠不如美國，它是37.6%，如果從一個國家的經濟發展來講，這些都是OECD經濟發展不錯的國家。我們人社的學生人數遠低於他們，我們增加都來不及了，我們要任憑這些以財務為考量來刪減這些他們認為不賺錢的系所嗎？我覺得這件事情如果違反國家公共利益的話，教育部就應該要介入，部長怎麼回應這個部分？"],["潘部長文忠：是，我跟委員報告，確實教育的過程本來就有個人、整個國家社會的需求考慮，教育本身也不是統統把學生往哪一軌去發展，所以在這樣的過程，也謝謝委員提出，教育部會對某些科系，……甚至是稀少的科系，教育部都會有政策跟資源上的協助，包括之前委員關心的性平所等等的。"],["范委員雲：對，這是國家和教育部重要的政策。"],["潘部長文忠：是，所以在這種概念裡面，我覺得這是我們在政策上的一個基礎。"],["范委員雲：好，這個部分教育部是不是可以給我一個報告，好嗎？不要讓各校因為自己的財務考量，就刪掉它認為不會賺錢的科系，要符合國家的方向，這部分是不是可以給我們辦公室一份書面報告，好嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：好，OK！"],["范委員雲：最後，這個剛剛也有委員講過，我覺得也許不需要召開全國教育會議，但是召開「高教國是會議」一定要，我去年3月質詢的時候，部長說會研議，但是後來沒有下文，我下次再問您過去的成果，您可不可以把這個當做交接清單，交接給新的部長呢？"],["潘部長文忠：可以。"],["范委員雲：名稱叫做高教國是會議最好，如果您認為名稱不是這樣子，也可以提出您的建議，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：這部分我們會整理，因為今天有很多委員也有這樣的建議，我相信這個是大家所關注的，新任的部長應該也會注意。"],["范委員雲：對，因為這是大學治理者，校長也希望、學生也希望、教師也希望，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：好，我們會把它做一個整理，也讓下一任的部長能夠瞭解。"],["范委員雲：就是交接清單，謝謝潘部長。"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝兩位。","接下來請張嘉郡委員，質詢時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-8","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","吳春城","范雲","張嘉郡","羅智強","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","廖偉翔","莊瑞雄","劉建國","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.72221875,"end":7.844093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.93221875,"end":11.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.742218750000003,"end":11.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.079718750000001,"end":80.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.14909375,"end":103.00221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.06971875,"end":153.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.92096875,"end":110.35971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.52784375,"end":115.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.97471875000001,"end":118.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.56346875,"end":129.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.36909375000002,"end":132.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.27971875,"end":136.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.27096875,"end":138.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.53159375,"end":145.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.47221875,"end":147.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.28159375,"end":197.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.02971875,"end":197.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.68784375,"end":197.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.77221875,"end":197.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.97471875000002,"end":198.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.54846875,"end":274.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.59971875,"end":376.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.90034375000005,"end":421.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.68659375000004,"end":423.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.72034375000004,"end":422.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.10409375,"end":423.20534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.20534375000005,"end":423.62721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.62721875000005,"end":437.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.93909375000004,"end":426.15846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.00471875000005,"end":469.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.24909375000004,"end":440.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.53784375000004,"end":455.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.39659375,"end":469.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.29096875000005,"end":475.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.02909375,"end":471.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.22284375000004,"end":579.8559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.7547187499999,"end":609.6740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.6103437500001,"end":585.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.95034375,"end":597.2709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.70471875,"end":603.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.9990937499999,"end":610.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.2140937500001,"end":611.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.02409375,"end":611.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.0747187500001,"end":617.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.27721875,"end":612.6609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.0990937500001,"end":631.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.67909375,"end":631.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.84784375,"end":665.1928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":658.0209687500001,"end":658.4597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.6147187500001,"end":674.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.0234687500001,"end":669.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.7153437500001,"end":676.8872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.96346875,"end":675.0647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":676.8872187500001,"end":680.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.0090937500001,"end":683.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.3672187500001,"end":684.3290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.27409375,"end":686.21909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.958,"end":5.98,"text":"潘文忠列席"},{"start":12.182,"end":21.445,"text":"部長午安了我想今天大家關心的問題就是少子女化的浪潮大專院校如何因應首先我要先幫花蓮大漢技術學院的師生跟部長請命我知道剛剛林一金委員有問這題因為我早上有跟他們一起開記者會我覺得這個個案非常的重要因為部長應該記得當時我們在修私校退場條例的時候我個人是主張同步修私校"},{"start":42.073,"end":42.213,"text":"大漢技術學院"},{"start":62.887,"end":63.127,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":81.581,"end":102.706,"text":"剛剛我們民間的團體有很多的指責擔心董事會在財產方面可能有蠻多的議題那會淪為私人那教育部這邊是不是可以依照私校法你有的法律工具嚴格審查他相關的退場的計畫好嗎包含私生權益還有財產的公共性如何保障"},{"start":103.146,"end":103.186,"text":"主動退場"},{"start":121.51,"end":123.351,"text":"教育部部長潘文忠列席提醒教育部部長潘文忠列席提醒教育部部長潘文忠列席提醒"},{"start":144.824,"end":145.385,"text":"請教育部依法嚴格審查確保師生的權益"},{"start":160.288,"end":178.393,"text":"宣布退場的那一次校務會議的資料最後一個臨時提案就是內容是維護學生權益教學品質讓學生受教權受到保障提清審議那內容講的就是因為花蓮很多都是花蓮的學生地方那麼大你要他離開花蓮去別的學校這是嚴重傷害學生權益這個是"},{"start":180.994,"end":192.75,"text":"出席27位同意19票反對0票等於是全場無意通過的可是現在的很多措施已經違反校務會議的決議了所以這個就大學法來講也是有問題的好不好那請部長嚴格幫忙監督我也會後續加"},{"start":199.458,"end":214.357,"text":"再來相關的問題因為今天我們討論了很多教改大學退場的部分一直有講到這個410教改那跟部長報告一下我當年有參加410是學生的代表之一"},{"start":215.378,"end":243.524,"text":"所以非常了解當時的四大訴求也非常了解教改前學校的困境我們這個世代是在有體罰的情況下像部長講的小學一班60幾人我們到現在同學會的時候同學還在分享當年看到老師體罰學生留下來的床上我們連目睹兒床上都還在所以這裡面有非常多的教育的改革是進步的"},{"start":244.404,"end":266.104,"text":"可是現在大家爭執的這一點就是人人就廣設高中大學是不是目前的病源然後大家在執著說是不是要李遠哲負責我是不知道我沒有研究過這題誰該負責可是我覺得有一個歷史事實很重要因為當年的領導者是黃武雄教授"},{"start":267.064,"end":277.228,"text":"黃文雄是410的精神跟理念的領導者那我找到他一篇文章想跟大家分享他在2021年在這個關鍵評論上他怎麼講他說廣設大學410民間教改的訴求是台灣應在5到10年內讓年輕人進大學的機會提到美國的54%甚至達到加拿大60%以上"},{"start":291.674,"end":308.88,"text":"但我擔心當時的政府目光短淺那是1994年會便宜行事後面我暫時不念把高職專校升格為大學結果大幅降低大學的品質下一段1996年吳京上任教育部長提出第二國道的構想"},{"start":309.48,"end":329.753,"text":"果然要大量升格公私立技職專校雖然教改人士到教育部前抗議要求好好廣設公立大學並指出公私立學校的不同定位跳過一段我找時任教育立委王拓去吳部長陳述利害可惜吳部長堅持如故"},{"start":330.513,"end":346.3,"text":"後面第二國道一旦通車這些升格的技術學校與大學變成了龐大利益集團偉大不掉他們的存在阻撓了日後廣設新的有一定有水準的公立大學的任何提議"},{"start":347.18,"end":375.307,"text":"這是黃武雄當時C0教育的領導者他認為是出在當時不是出在廣設高中跟大學是出在當時升格的方式那我想我不知道潘部長怎麼評定這件事情因為每一任部長都有責任那您做的是過去8年所以我比較想問的事情是我們現在去歷史究責應該是交給歷史學家去做研究的我想問的是說"},{"start":376.977,"end":401.333,"text":"到現在為止至少我們看到當年的那種便宜形式的升格方式那的確面臨到少子化的過程中我們面臨到現在退場的問題那民團人士那當然剛剛也有人講過就是未來8年他們認為至少40所大專院校會退場那事實是不是這樣子我不知道但是我看到我們林萬億政委他回應說"},{"start":403.695,"end":423.316,"text":"私校退場問題不會再惡化然後他提出的解方是各校朝精緻化教學發展請問潘部長是不是認同說這是解方呢就是那個林萬億政委講的精緻化教學的方向不會就是可以解決"},{"start":423.917,"end":427.701,"text":"跟委員報告．確實現在生源．我們說少子化後的生源．這些都是客觀的數據．以目前臺灣大學的大專校院的規模．這個確實一定會出現．招生各方面的限制．"},{"start":441.036,"end":453.522,"text":"大學後續的發展其實教育部也一直都比較希望因為這個是現在可以再努力的部分那這一段為什麼我們一直說大學可以做如林萬一政委講的這是一種形態之一"},{"start":456.603,"end":457.484,"text":"部長,忍疫時間的緣故容許我先打斷您"},{"start":478.304,"end":494.112,"text":"這裡至少今天的報告我比較沒有看到精緻化教學方案那這邊我要提醒您一個精緻化教學方案就是到底如何精緻化山簡科系整合的問題因為我們現在看到了幾個例子包含輔大"},{"start":495.273,"end":495.293,"text":"范雲"},{"start":526.713,"end":537.537,"text":"各位看一下我們台灣人文社科的學生比例真的太高了嗎?我們如果跟OECD比我們台灣的人文社科學生比例是22%OECD平均是29.4%韓國是28.6%日本是32%這些國家表現不好嗎?我們如果跟美國比我們又遠遠不如美國他是37.6%"},{"start":552.181,"end":558.885,"text":"所以如果從一個國家的不管是經濟發展來講的話這些都是OECD經濟發展不錯的我們的人設學生人數是遠低於他們我們增加都來不及了我們要認平這些據說以財務為考量就是刪減這些他認為不賺錢的細索嗎我覺得這件事情如果違反國家的公共利益的話教育部就應該介入那部長怎麼回應這個部分"},{"start":581.157,"end":609.419,"text":"其實在教育的過程本來就有個人跟整個國家社會的這樣的需求的考慮那教育本身也不是說通通把學生往哪一軌去發展所以在這樣的過程教育部為什麼也是一些委員這邊提對於某些科系我們當學校發生甚至是稀有的稀少的科系會有一些教育部的政策跟資源上的協助包含之前委員關心像性平所等等的"},{"start":609.879,"end":630.445,"text":"這個是國家教育部的重要政策所以在這種概念裡面我覺得這是我們在政策上的一個基礎那這個部分是不是教育部給我一個報告好嗎如何不要讓各校因為自己的財務考量刪掉他認為不會賺錢的科系符合國家的方向這部分是不是可以給我們辦公室一個書面報告好嗎"},{"start":632.085,"end":657.452,"text":"最後我也為剛剛有委員講過的我覺得召開高教我覺得也許不需要是全國教育但是高教一定要召開高教國是會議我去年3月質詢的時候部長說會去研議後來沒有下文部長可能就是下次再問您就是過去的成果您可不可以把這個當作交接清單交接給我們新部長的"},{"start":658.632,"end":658.792,"text":"謝謝潘部長"}]}},{"id":"151299","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151299","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f0162769ce839935a7c36eb57f63d1b53b7532c5dab72e655c1c9407af2ac88c6a759f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"12:12:33 - 12:19:00","影片長度":"00:06:27","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-12"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":387,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:19:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:12:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1066,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（12時12分）謝謝主席！有請環境部薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：蔡委員好！"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我在上個月有對今年2月20日也就是農曆春節後嘉義市大火的後續狀況表示關心，我想請教部長的是，這一次嘉義市大火後續的調查，基本上有很多資訊是不足的，這個資訊不足來自於嘉義市的資源回收暫置場，這個場所叫做資源回收暫置場，但卻沒有類似像掩埋場或者是資源回收場應該要有的一些法令限制，因為它叫做暫置場，看起來沒有什麼法令可以管它，所以我們對於這個大火的實際發生原因都是用猜測的，沒有辦法抓到實際的原因。所以我想要請教部長，以公有掩埋場來說，基於掩埋場的管理規範，地磅區有目視檢查，掩埋區除目視檢查外還有一個落地檢查，落地檢查還可以用長竿等道具去攪翻廢棄物，至少確定這個廢棄物是合乎這個掩埋場的規範，是可以掩埋的，這是一個前提，如果發現有不得掩埋的廢棄物時，應該要記錄且拍照存證，這是一個重點，但是嘉義市的這個資源回收暫置場並沒有這樣相關的一些比較嚴謹的規定，部長，我們針對這件事情有檢討嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：暫置場因為算是一個臨時的場所，所以的確我覺得我們法規裡面……"],["賴署長瑩瑩：還在檢討。"],["蔡委員易餘：還在檢討？已經一個月了耶！"],["賴署長瑩瑩：針對個案的部分，我們有跟嘉義市談到說它會有一些防範措施，包括要去巡查或是檢查它有沒有……"],["蔡委員易餘：對於個案，它有一些防護措施，有一些改進，我有把它的改進列舉出來，我們先看112年就是前年那一次，因為嘉義市這個暫置場連續好幾年都發生火災且都是在農曆春節後，然後每次火災的範圍都很大，前一次是裡面都燒得乾乾淨淨的，燒得乾乾淨淨就可以再放更多廢棄物進去，這件事已經讓大家很生氣了。你們再看一下前年那次火災後它的後續結論，主要是說會派保全人員每日上下午巡視場區並且拍照存查，所以看起來它的保全人員只是巡視場區內，並不是對進場的廢棄物都有做目視檢查或者是落地檢查，沒有啊！他只是看場區而已，這是第一個不合理的地方。那你再看113年這次，火災之後他也只是說日、夜間安排人員每小時現場巡視1次，然後每日安排5趟灑水，看起來他也只是去那裡看現場而已，我感覺只是去看現場，那現場就是這些垃圾啊！還有什麼？重點應該是他到底把哪些東西放在那裡吧？重點應該是在這一塊，所以我覺得有一點被搞錯重點，看起來他們有提出檢討，但是我無法透過這樣的檢討判斷說明年的春節過後會不會再燒一次。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：他們會來加速園區的興建，另外這個……"],["蔡委員易餘：園區的興建沒這麼快啦！你知道的嘛，他是要把一個日燒200萬噸的擴展到450萬噸，所以興建時間沒有那麼快，因此這個暫置場一定還會持續很長的時間，在都沒有任何規範的情況之下，因為東北季風的緣故，每一次火災產生的臭味煙霧就都往鄰近的水上飄來，我們是遭殃的人，看起來嘉義市沒有那麼大的民怨是因為風勢，這些沒有飄到他們那裡，所以我覺得對這個事情，第一個就是請部長思考如何確保這個暫置場不要再發生火災這件事，有勞環境部。"],["薛部長富盛：我們請循環署來瞭解看它裡面到底……"],["蔡委員易餘：有沒有確實嘛！對不對？到底哪些東西放在暫置場那邊，這是一個很大的問題。第二個就是部長在上次我質詢的時候有答應過我們，就是類似像這樣的一個焚化爐，原本日燒250萬噸現在要擴展到400萬噸，而這個焚化爐的地點所在就是我們嘉義縣人口最多的地方，在嘉義市來說它是一個還沒有那麼開發的地方，可是我們嘉義縣在那裡的人口好密集啊，可是他們這個焚化爐卻對我們嘉義縣沒有任何的回饋，這件事我覺得一直是地方的一個怨，有這種怨是不好的，明明我們可以協調不要出現這種民怨，說實在的，現在焚化爐收的垃圾費用愈來愈多，老實說他們賺得很多，真的賺得很多，可是對地方明明造成了鄰避卻都不處理，這樣是不好的。部長你有答應我嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：我們也覺得這事不合理，特別是把焚化爐放在縣跟市之間的邊界，事實上是讓旁邊的受害，但是我們以前的觀念當然是以這個……"],["蔡委員易餘：過去當然是焚化爐設在哪裡的就回饋哪裡。"],["薛部長富盛：沒有考慮到周遭，我覺得……"],["蔡委員易餘：對，周遭沒有考慮到，我覺得部長對這件事可以加速來進行，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝蔡委員的指教。"],["蔡委員易餘：拜託部長。謝謝！"],["薛部長富盛：好。謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝！","接下來我們請何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","我們請劉建國委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","陳瑩","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃秀芳","張雅琳","洪申翰","蔡易餘","劉建國","陳冠廷","楊曜","蘇清泉"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事\n業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.19846875,"end":11.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.961593750000002,"end":12.805343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.488468750000003,"end":16.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.72034375,"end":17.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.445968750000002,"end":17.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.46284375,"end":17.867843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.867843750000002,"end":27.722843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.930343750000002,"end":23.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.57971875,"end":25.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.144718750000003,"end":29.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.680343750000002,"end":30.473468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.827843750000003,"end":42.134093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.31971875,"end":48.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.22596875,"end":70.33221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.21034375,"end":67.36221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.44659375,"end":67.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.88909375,"end":111.25409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.43721875,"end":73.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.12159375,"end":95.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.10284375,"end":107.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.47346875000001,"end":115.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.67971875,"end":115.47284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.32096875,"end":116.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.75971875,"end":116.31659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.95784375000001,"end":120.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.40034375,"end":120.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.97409375000001,"end":128.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.80034375000001,"end":125.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.85096875,"end":125.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.86784375,"end":125.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.93534375,"end":126.17159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.78721875,"end":129.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.49596875,"end":131.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.86284375,"end":133.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.76971875,"end":133.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.32221875000002,"end":144.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.51909375,"end":150.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.02846875,"end":152.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.42471875,"end":155.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.53409375,"end":157.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.28909375,"end":158.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.70659375,"end":165.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.25409375,"end":165.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.64221875,"end":179.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.10846875000001,"end":180.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.28971875000002,"end":182.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.20909375000002,"end":183.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.23846875,"end":190.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.20784375000002,"end":200.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.50596875000002,"end":204.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.52221875,"end":207.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.45409375000003,"end":212.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.87534375,"end":214.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.36034375000003,"end":223.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.23659375000003,"end":226.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.37096875,"end":231.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.33221875,"end":235.55534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.79159375,"end":236.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.41159375,"end":246.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.99659375000002,"end":248.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.46471875,"end":250.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.97909375,"end":251.50221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.83971875,"end":251.90721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.90721875000003,"end":252.27846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.27846875000003,"end":257.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.59846875,"end":257.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.25221875,"end":258.52221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.52221875000004,"end":262.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.02784375000005,"end":281.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.18096875000003,"end":286.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.73721875,"end":288.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.61034375,"end":297.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.76096875,"end":300.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.85784375000003,"end":298.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.09784375000004,"end":316.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.21596875,"end":302.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.37534375,"end":307.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.84221875000003,"end":324.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.72284375000004,"end":331.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.01284375,"end":339.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.43784375,"end":341.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.93534375,"end":342.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.28534375000004,"end":350.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.06471875,"end":351.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.43596875000003,"end":359.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.73846875000004,"end":360.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.21096875,"end":361.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.24471875,"end":360.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.29534375000003,"end":373.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.86034375,"end":363.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.02846875,"end":367.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.24284375,"end":376.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.04846875000004,"end":375.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.19159375000004,"end":376.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.22534375000004,"end":380.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.24221875,"end":378.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.75659375000004,"end":379.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.91659375,"end":383.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.52409375,"end":384.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.80221875,"end":387.48096875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.503,"end":29.814,"text":"謝謝主席那我們是不是有請環境部我們薛部長好請薛部長好蔡委員好部長是部長我在上個月有來關心這個今年2月20也就是農曆春節後這個嘉義市大火的對的一個後續的狀況那我想請教部長齁"},{"start":30.914,"end":55.563,"text":"就這一次的加一世大我他後續調查基本上有很多資訊是不足的這個資訊不足來自於說現在改期這個叫做資源回收戰智場那這樣的一個名詞的一個定義叫做資源回收戰智場但是他卻沒有類似像掩埋場或者是類似資源回收場應該要有的一些法令限制有一個叫戰智場"},{"start":57.464,"end":86.515,"text":"沒有什麼法令可以管他所以我們在於這一個大火的實際的一個發生怎樣原因都是用猜測的沒有辦法抓到實際的原因所以我想要請教部長的就是說公有的一個掩埋場我們基於這一個掩埋場的管理規範他地棒區有目視檢查那掩埋區也有一個再一次的目視檢查然後還有一個落地檢查落地檢查還可以用這個殘缸等道具"},{"start":86.995,"end":107.249,"text":"去攪翻廢棄物那至少確定這個廢棄物是合於這個掩埋場可以掩埋的這是一個前提嘛如果有發現這個有不得掩埋的一個廢棄物的時候應該要記錄而且要拍照存證這是一個很重點的但是這樣相關的一些比較嚴謹的規定在於嘉義市的這個資源回收的一個戰事場沒有這樣的規定"},{"start":117.635,"end":140.462,"text":"那部長,我們針對這件事情有檢討嗎?是,我覺得戰事場因為它是一個算是臨時的啦所以的確我覺得我們的法規裡面有沒有我們現在正在檢討,跟我們報告還在檢討,已經一個月了捏已經一個月了就針對個案的部分我們有跟嘉義市談出說他會有一些防範措施包括說他要去巡查或者是"},{"start":143.581,"end":152.41,"text":"各案的時候說他有一些防護措施他有一些改進那我有把他的改進把它列舉出來來我們再跳到改進的那一頁好不好"},{"start":153.742,"end":176.13,"text":"改進的那一頁我們來看一下兩次先用先用這個這是一百一十二年的就是前年因為我講改進這個戰事場它連續連續好幾年都火災而且都是在農曆的春節後然後每次火災的範圍很大因為大家裡面都燒燒到乾乾燙燙燙燙燙燙燙燙燙燙燙燙燙燙這件事已經讓大家很生氣了那你看一下你在前年的這一個火災後"},{"start":183.272,"end":195.716,"text":"他的後續的一個結論他主要說我會派保全人員每日上下午巡視場區並且拍照存儲所以看起來他的保全人員只是巡視場區內他並不是說他進場的這個廢棄物"},{"start":201.379,"end":225.196,"text":"都有把它做一個目視檢查或者是落地檢查沒有啊他只是看場區而已這是第一個不合理的地方好那你再看113年火災之後那火災之後他也只是說日宴間安排人員每小時現場巡視一次然後每日安排五趟的一個灑水看起來他也是現場要去那裡看現場而已"},{"start":227.918,"end":244.667,"text":"我感覺看現場,現場就是這樣就是本社啊,現場怎麼有什麼重點是他到底把哪些東西丟在那裡吧我覺得重點應該是在這一塊,所以我覺得有一點被搞錯重點然後看起來他們有提出檢討,但是這個檢討咧我無法判斷說明年的春節過後會不會再燒一次"},{"start":252.47,"end":277,"text":"那他們會來加速他們園區的一個興建那另外那個興建沒那麼快你知道嘛他是要把一個日燒200萬噸的要把它擴展到450萬噸嘛所以那個興建時間沒有那麼快所以這戰事場一定還會持續很長的時間那都沒有任何規範的情況之下那每一次火災那因為東北季風啊所以這個"},{"start":277.86,"end":300.154,"text":"蔡易就往台北往水上往中坡來我們是遭殃的人看起來嘉義市沒有那麼大的民怨是因為風水沒遭到他們那裡所以我覺得這個事情第一個部長就是說到底這個戰事場它的相關的如何確保它不要再發生火災這件事所以有勞我們環境部我們請水安水來瞭解看它裡面到底"},{"start":301.158,"end":323.832,"text":"有沒有確實嘛對不對他到底哪些東西去佔自那邊這個是一個很大的問題那第二個就是部長你在上次我質詢的時候你有答應過我們就是說類似像這樣的一個焚化爐你看它原本日燒250它現在要擴張到400那你知道這個焚化爐的地點所在就是我們嘉義縣人口最多的"},{"start":325.354,"end":341.386,"text":"在嘉義市也是偶爾來它是一個剛還沒有那麼開發的地方我們那裡人口好密集啊所以這一個回饋金他們卻這個焚化爐對我們嘉義縣是沒有任何的回饋這件事我覺得一直是地方的一個碗啊"},{"start":343.328,"end":359.47,"text":"阿這種碗就不好明明我們可以協調不要讓這種碗出來因為現在的文化如說實在的啦 他們收本收的錢越來越多 老實說他們賺很多啦 他們真的賺很多阿對電風明明造成了零幣 然後都不處理 這樣是不好的好不好"},{"start":360.571,"end":360.991,"text":"接下來我們請何欣淳"}]}},{"id":"151298","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151298","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016276ab3ea62179ca7ecb57f63d1b53b7532c5dab72e655c1c94a55a4cec380058055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"12:04:12 - 12:12:27","影片長度":"00:08:15","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-12"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":495,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:12:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:04:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1033,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（12時4分）請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，今天是環境部限塑的專案報告，所以我想與環境部討論關於廢棄物的問題。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，其實這幾年我們在新聞媒體上看到很多SRF的新聞，包括各縣市發生的爭議，部長應該也都清楚，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是，有所瞭解。"],["洪委員申翰：部長你看一下，我記得從我一進立法院開始，當時還是環保署，那時在每一次討論到廢棄物的報告裡面，我覺得都滿大力的在說我們要推動這個SRF的技術，包括跟廠商也包括研發什麼等等，真的，我記得每次我們在衛環委員會裡面討論廢棄物議題的時候，其實都聽到環保署對這件事情談了很多，可是我想問一下，現在在SRF的使用上面，環境部到底扮演什麼角色？如果我們仔細來看SRF的話，大概可以分成兩個部分，第一個部分是製造端，第二個部分是使用端，使用端可能在發電廠或者是一些工廠的鍋爐裡面會使用，製造端的部分就是把它做成SRF的可燃粒料以供使用。但我剛剛問了部長，在SRF的爭議裡面，我們現在最擔心的事情其實在於供需的調控，剛才說的製造端等於是供給端，使用端等於是需求端，假如量化來說的話，供給端跟需求端應該有一定程度的對應，對不對？在量的對應方面，假如我們的製造端製造了一大堆，但使用端沒得使用，這其實也沒辦法，對不對？但如果我們的製造端生產很少，供給端的發電廠一大堆，這也有問題，對不對？那看起來勢必是需要一些總量的調控，不管是在供給端或者是在需求端，請問現在環保署怎麼做？"],["薛部長富盛：我完全認同，跟洪委員報告，的確，我去年上任之後也發現了這個問題，所以我就有請同仁要去調整以前的一些作法，因為我們經濟學的基本概念、供需的概念一定要出來。"],["洪委員申翰：可是請部長看一下上一張圖表，這一張是我們把現在每一個政策工具的環節都列出來，在製造端的部分其實大概有幾個類型，再利用有分公告再利用、許可再利用跟處理機構，基本上公告再利用部分的准駁其實是在地方政府，許可再利用部分的准駁是在經濟部，但未來可能會轉成環境部，處理機構部分的准駁權是在地方政府手上，這是製造端的部分。至於使用端呢，使用端的入園許可是在地方政府，電業許可是在經濟部，建造或是後面的設置許可都是在地方政府，其實在這裡面我們幾乎看不到環境部的角色。有啦！剛才講說許可再利用未來可能會從經濟部轉到環境部，但許可再利用相比於公告再利用其實是少數，所以在這些環節裡面，我們現在看到的狀況是環境部在大推SRF，但在真正的管控環節或者是真正的政策工具裡面沒有角色啊！"],["薛部長富盛：跟洪委員報告，所以我們現在希望能夠把它入法，將來要把SRF當作產品的概念來看待。"],["洪委員申翰：然後呢？"],["薛部長富盛：接下來就是要分類，這樣子的話，產品從源頭就可以分類，才不會製造紛爭。為什麼現在大家對SRF幾乎都是負面印象？原因就在於以前在品質方面，前端這部分沒有去管制，所以裡面有包括PVC，將來使用之後就會產生戴奧辛等等，過去這些問題累積下來，導致大家一聽到SRF就有負面印象，我們希望能轉成正面的。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我請問你一個問題，今天在桃園生產的SRF粒料能不能夠拉到其他縣市的SRF發電廠去燒？可不可以？應該可以吧，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：可以啊！假如當它是一個產品，只要……"],["洪委員申翰：也就是說現在我們在SRF這部分的大量的管制工具掌握在地方政府手上，這是有問題的嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["洪委員申翰：其實不管是供給端或需求端，一定是需要中央來做相對應的調控嘛！可是我在相關機制設計上面沒有看到呀！所以部長我想要知道的是，經過去年相關的爭議案件以後，現在在這些機制上面，要怎麼把環境部的角色給放進去？"],["薛部長富盛：跟委員報告，第一個是從以前的書面審查現在變成書面審查、現勘跟試運轉三個階段。第二個是中央介入，我不能說介入，介入不好聽，就是說……"],["洪委員申翰：中央本來就該介入啊！沒有辦法只交給地方啊！交給地方就是弄到現在遍地烽火啊！"],["薛部長富盛：除非我們把整個制度面去做改變，就是說回歸到環境部，否則依現有的法令規章是地方審查，但是中央環境部應該來協助，現階段是過渡啦。"],["洪委員申翰：請部長再看一下剛剛那張圖，我還是要跟大家說，在這張圖裡面可看出絕大多數的權責都在地方政府手上，在這麼需要中央做一個總量或總體的管控，不管是在供給端或需求端的時候，卻沒有一個明確的工具，這已經不是說中央會來協助、中央會來訪視、中央會來現勘可以解決的問題啦！"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝洪委員提到這個問題，現在SRF為大家所詬病，責怪的時候真的都怪中央，事實上很多權都是……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我要說今天對SRF，我願意把它視為就是一個技術，重點是用得好的話，它可以是一個好的技術，用得不好的話，它就會產生壞的影響，所以今天的重點是我們先不把它貼上一個好或壞的標籤，但現在的問題是我們在整體的機制設計上，讓大家覺得中央毫無把關的空間，如果我們只是如同這張表上面呈現的，對地方政府的部分去協助一下、幫忙訪視一下，這解決不了當下SRF的問題啊！過去對於SRF的推動，大家都看到是環境部跟經濟部在推，對不對？尤其是環境部也推得很大力，但這個工具看起來就是讓人覺得你大力推動卻沒有責任啊！"],["主席：好，時間到。"],["薛部長富盛：委員，我們來檢討。"],["洪委員申翰：署長，對怎麼解決SRF管控問題這部分，你多久時間可以給我們一個版本？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，我們現在目前正在做的包括它的審查或者說稽查的管理，我想我們在一個月內來提供。"],["洪委員申翰：我們要有明確的管制工具，尤其是中央能控在手上的管制工具，而不是那種協助地方的，不是這種東西。在這張圖表上面看得很清楚，再繼續這樣下去的話，我們沒有辦法管控，不管是供給端或需求端都會出問題的，這樣只會讓外界對於SRF愈來愈不信任，這個不信任不一定是來自於它的技術本身，可能是來自於我們管理方法的不足，我要提醒的是這一點，好不好？謝謝！"],["薛部長富盛：我們來檢討這個部分。"],["主席：因為時間關係，請部長會後跟委員補充說明。謝謝！","接下來我們請徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","請蔡易餘委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","陳瑩","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃秀芳","張雅琳","洪申翰","蔡易餘","劉建國","陳冠廷","楊曜","蘇清泉"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事\n業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.176593750000002,"end":14.070968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.032843750000001,"end":15.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.77909375,"end":18.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.79596875,"end":18.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.96471875,"end":19.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.69034375,"end":19.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.11221875,"end":33.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.622218750000002,"end":24.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.92534375,"end":28.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.47284375,"end":39.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.197843750000004,"end":40.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.02034375,"end":44.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.31096875,"end":54.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.29659375000001,"end":57.237218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.40596875000001,"end":69.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.14659375000001,"end":83.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.06409375000001,"end":102.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.49596875,"end":102.81659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.52534375,"end":104.53784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.21284375,"end":106.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.59659375000001,"end":111.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.40159375,"end":115.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.89471875000001,"end":123.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.04971875000001,"end":126.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.45846875000001,"end":126.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.06596875000001,"end":128.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.24284375000002,"end":130.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.49159375000002,"end":133.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.54596875000001,"end":134.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.30096875,"end":136.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.10659375,"end":139.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.04284375,"end":144.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.08846875,"end":145.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.64534375,"end":153.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.88034375,"end":157.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.77846875,"end":159.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.95534375,"end":161.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.98034375,"end":164.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.30471875,"end":168.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.62909375,"end":172.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.10096875000002,"end":173.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.40471875,"end":174.80534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.07534375,"end":175.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.30721875,"end":180.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.18409375000002,"end":183.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.10346875000002,"end":187.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.86659375000002,"end":192.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.14846875,"end":199.61159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.21909375,"end":206.42909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.68221875,"end":207.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.18409375000002,"end":211.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.14971875,"end":213.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.61784375000002,"end":223.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.43471875,"end":226.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.39221875,"end":230.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.83034375000003,"end":233.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.24346875,"end":236.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.05721875,"end":237.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.20471875,"end":239.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.26346875000002,"end":242.59221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.87909375,"end":243.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.89159375000003,"end":245.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.15284375000002,"end":251.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.48534375000003,"end":252.49784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.83971875,"end":255.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.80534375000002,"end":264.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.47909375,"end":282.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.57784375,"end":283.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.31159375000004,"end":283.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.36221875,"end":283.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.41284375000004,"end":285.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.51409375000003,"end":283.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.54346875000005,"end":284.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.79221875,"end":288.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.66096875,"end":290.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.85471875,"end":294.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.68534375,"end":295.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.37721875,"end":299.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.73971875,"end":304.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.51909375,"end":323.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.22659375,"end":314.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.74409375000005,"end":331.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.82721875000004,"end":336.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.26534375,"end":336.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.28221875,"end":342.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.56034375,"end":338.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.52596875,"end":344.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.23034375000003,"end":347.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.48721875,"end":350.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.38971875000004,"end":353.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.52846875,"end":354.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.94596875,"end":357.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.80659375000005,"end":356.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.87784375,"end":374.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.88534375,"end":366.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.43659375000004,"end":382.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.84096875,"end":379.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.03034375000004,"end":391.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.21909375,"end":396.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.42471875,"end":398.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.34846875000005,"end":398.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.50034375,"end":398.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.82096875,"end":398.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.27659375,"end":408.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.91659375,"end":408.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.03471875,"end":408.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.20346875,"end":408.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.86159375000005,"end":416.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.82221875000005,"end":418.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.48034375000003,"end":434.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.59159375,"end":439.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.86534375,"end":438.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.88221875000005,"end":439.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.47284375000004,"end":439.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.96221875000003,"end":441.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.26159375000003,"end":441.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.29096875000005,"end":442.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.37534375,"end":443.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.25284375,"end":453.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.84596875000005,"end":455.30159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.58846875,"end":463.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.36784375,"end":490.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.52721875000003,"end":470.42159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.65659375,"end":478.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.69034375,"end":479.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.27971875000003,"end":492.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.97534375000004,"end":492.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.94971875000005,"end":495.97034375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.253,"end":13.773,"text":"請學部長請學部長"},{"start":19.123,"end":40.24,"text":"王委員好部長今天是環境部的這個限塑的專案喔所以我其實也來想跟環境部討論一下關於廢棄物的這個問題喔部長其實這幾年我們在新聞媒體上面看到很多這些SRF的新聞包括各縣市其實發生的爭議部長應該都清楚嘛對不對是有所了解"},{"start":41.055,"end":56.452,"text":"部長你看一下齁其實這個我記得從我進立法院剛開始我其實就聽到當時還是環保署齁其實在每一次討論到廢棄物的報告裡面大概都我覺得都蠻大力的在說"},{"start":57.54,"end":82.791,"text":"我們要推動這個SRF的這個技術然後也包括跟廠商也包括研發什麼我其實真的我記得每次我們在在衛環委員會裡面討論廢棄物的議題的時候都都我都聽到環環保署其實談這事情談很多吼那可是我想問一下現在這個在SRF的這個這個使用上面環境部到底扮演什麼角色看下一張"},{"start":85.043,"end":85.443,"text":"下一張。但我剛剛問部長"},{"start":106.995,"end":122.737,"text":"這個現在在SRF的爭議裡面我們現在最擔心的事情是其實剛才說的製造端等於它是供給端使用端等於是需求端照理來說假如量化來說的話供給端跟需求端"},{"start":123.237,"end":143.503,"text":"他應該要有一定程度的對應對不對那他的量的對應其實假如我們的製造端製造一大堆但使用端沒得使用這其實也沒辦法對不對但如果我們的製造端生產很少供給端的發電廠一大堆這也有問題對不對"},{"start":145.123,"end":172.378,"text":"那看起來勢必是需要一些總量的調控不管是在供給端或者是在需求端啊現在環保署怎麼做我完全認同所以跟洪委員報告說真的的確這個我去年上任之後我也發現這個問題所以我就有請同仁事實上要去調整以前的一些這個做法因為我們這個經濟學的基本概念嘛共修的概念一定要出來嘛"},{"start":173.558,"end":199.345,"text":"部長可是你看一下上一張是上一張是我們把現在每一個政策工具的環節都列出來看一下齁在製造端的部分其實大概有幾個類型在利用有分公告在利用跟許可在利用跟處理機構基本上公告在利用的部分其實準博是在地方政府許可在利用的部分是經濟部但未來可能會轉成環境部處理機構的部分它的準博權是在地方政府手上"},{"start":200.525,"end":222.902,"text":"這是在製造端,好,使用端呢?使用端它的入園許可是地方政府,電源許可是經濟部它的建造或者是後面設置許可都是在這個地方政府其實在這裡面我們幾乎看不到環境部的角色,有啦,剛剛講說未來可能許可再利用會從經濟部轉到環境部但許可再利用相比於公告再利用其實是少數啊"},{"start":224.505,"end":251.213,"text":"所以在這些環節裡面我們現在看到的狀況是環境部在大推SRF但在真正的管控環節或者是真正的這個政策工具裡面沒有角色啊所以跟黃委員報告這個也是我們現在在這個已經希望能夠把它這個入法就是我們SRF將來要把它當作產品的概念來看的"},{"start":252.133,"end":279.928,"text":"以前接下來就要跟我們一樣分類啦這樣子的話齁你產品從源頭就可以把它分類才不會製造為什麼現在大家對SRF幾乎負面的原因就是因為以前在品質方面前端沒有去管制所以裡面有包括PVC將來使用之後就會產生代號性等等這些問題所以過去累積出來就變成大家對SRF一聽到"},{"start":282.569,"end":303.367,"text":"部長,我請問你一個問題。假如今天在桃園生產的SRF利料能不能夠拉到去其他縣市的SRF發電廠去燒,可不可以?應該可以吧,對不對?也就是說現在我們在SRF裡面大量的管制工具其實掌握在地方政府手上,這是有問題的嘛。"},{"start":305.575,"end":330.015,"text":"我其實一定是需要中央來做相對應的調控嘛不管是供給端或需求端嘛可是我在我的機制設計上面沒看到啊所以部長我想要知道經過了這麼去年相關的爭議案件以後我現在在這些機制上面我要怎麼把環境部的角色給放進去給洪恩報告第一個從以前是書面審查現在變成書面審查現刊跟視音轉三個階段"},{"start":330.976,"end":356.371,"text":"第二個 中央介入 我不能說介入啦 介入不好聽啦 就是說 中央本來該介入啊 我沒有辦法只交給地方啊 我交給地方就是弄到現在遍地烽火啊 除非我們把整個制度面去做改變 就是說 欸 回歸到環境部 或者以現有的法定規章是地方審查 但是中央環境部應該是 來協助啦 現階段過度啦"},{"start":359.048,"end":373.87,"text":"部長再看一下剛剛那張圖我還是要跟大家說在這張圖裡面絕大多數的權責都在地方政府手上我這麼需要中央做一個總量或總體的管控不管是在供給端或需求端的時候"},{"start":374.651,"end":398.644,"text":"我沒有一個明確的工具這已經不是說我中央會來協助我中央會來訪視我中央會來現刊可以解決的問題啦事實上謝謝洪文提到這個問題啦現在SRF變成大家詬病在怪的時候真的都怪中央部長部長我要說今天SRF我願意把它視為它就是一個技術技術重點是用得好的話它可以是一個好的"},{"start":399.224,"end":416.442,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":417.864,"end":418.004,"text":"好,時間到"},{"start":442.458,"end":462.463,"text":"市長,這部份你要多久時間,或者包括... 署長,多久時間可以給我們一個版本來看我們SIRF的管控可以怎麼解決這個問題?各位報告,我們現在目前正在做包括說他一個審查或說我今天在一個稽查的管理,然後想我們在一個月內來提供"},{"start":463.37,"end":492.944,"text":"時間關係,謝謝。"},{"start":493.186,"end":493.548,"text":"徐欣盈"}]}},{"id":"151297","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151297","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016275ce51114b00120aecf744a9f110b3b1fc5dab72e655c1c94e16ced3fb4f42c375ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"12:07:26 - 12:17:52","影片長度":"00:10:26","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":626,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:17:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:07:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":867,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（12時7分）主席、各位委員、出列席官員，大家好。主席，先請一下莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：莊部長，其實在財經界，整個國家的金融發展，在金管會也好，央行也好，財政部也好，就是財經三大巨頭，都是非常重要的。過去八年的時間一路走來，事實上金管會也扮演非常重要的角色，一路走來，整個銀行、證券、保險的發展，你覺得怎麼樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，目的事業主管機關金管會對於金融業，不管是證券、保險或銀行等各方面，都非常盡責，然後在做監理也好，開創也好，或者是發展也好，都是公股銀行都必須跟隨的一個指標。"],["羅委員明才：金融的穩定很重要，所以在目前臺灣金融圈裡面，對於整體的評價，都是覺得可圈可點，其實說到這裡面的貢獻，大概都是財經三長，大家可以用幾個字來形容，叫做有目共睹，但是你現在要小心，你現在當財政部的部長多久？任期多久了？"],["莊部長翠雲：我是在112年1月31日就任，所以大概一年多。"],["羅委員明才：一葉知秋。最近大家可以看得到整個荒腔走板的宮廷內鬥劇活生生地就在立法院上演，我們看到，最可惜的就是對財經界貢獻很多的人，我們突然發現，為什麼臺灣股市上兩萬點啊？所有銀行界人士笑嘻嘻，因為截至上一次的數據分析，銀行金融界已經賺了大概七、八千億。另外，保險過去因為COVID─19的問題，中央政策造成決策的錯誤，沒有辦法，不過也慢慢都穩定下來了，銀行的逾放現在也大概是歷史新低，三個財金首長貢獻都很大。所以我們看到黃主委一路走來，也無風雨也無情，這個「情」叫做「無情」的「情」，你想想看，一個執政黨的好官員，結果被執政黨的幾個人群起攻擊，造成中華民國失去了一個很好的金管會主委，這個實在是比八點檔宮廷劇還要令人嘆為觀止。所以我是覺得，莊部長，接下來因為520還沒到，還沒有正式發布，你也都要小心地繼續把該做的事情都做好，其中有一個大家關心的事情是財政收支劃分法對地方的照顧，地方嗷嗷待哺，這個部分要趕緊想一個好的方式為民發聲，畢竟我們在這邊開會，第一個想的都是國家至上，還有一個就是民眾第一，希望大家念茲在茲，趕緊把財劃法做好，不曉得部長準備好了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，有關財劃法修正的事情，其實財政部一直都沒有停歇過，有關對各地方政府未來財劃法怎麼去分配的部分，也在請地方政府表達意見，各地方政府也把相關的意見送來了，但是有一些有關分配的指標部分，它的內容跟它的內涵到底指的是什麼，我們會跟地方政府再進一步地釐清，然後我們會適時開會，尋求最大的共識，就是在分配的部分必須再看看要怎麼做，求取共識，然後才能夠往前再走一步。這個部分，財政部一直都沒有停歇過。","雖然財劃法沒有修正，但是中央對地方的財源挹注，其實一直有增加，在112年已經比105年增加了兩千多億，就是中央挹注地方的財源，在113年比105年增加兩千多億，所以目前地方整個財政也都在地方政府努力跟中央一起挹注之下，其實已經有非常大幅度的改進了。"],["羅委員明才：不過那個都是杯水車薪，因為現在變成六都，事實上，另外四都該得到的權益，統統還沒有具體地落實，差距還是很大，像臺北縣升格成新北市，我們當然希望該給人民的福利或是一些社會福利的制度，可以大幅度成長，不然臺北縣升格為新北市，變成直轄市，變成六都，那又如何？所以這方面多加油。請問一下，統籌稅款全部一年加起來有多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：應該到幾千億吧？今年加上中央補助款才有四千多億。"],["羅委員明才：從原有的，再加上這幾年的稅收都超徵。"],["莊部長翠雲：113年中央統籌分配款是4,000億。"],["羅委員明才：那如果新北市升格以後比照臺北市，新北市應該可以得到多少的補助？"],["莊部長翠雲：您說升格以後，它現在不是已經升格了嗎？分配的事，是不是請我們國庫署來做一個說明？"],["羅委員明才：好。"],["陳署長柏誠：新北市的部分，目前中央統籌分配稅款是468億。"],["羅委員明才：四百多億嘛？"],["陳署長柏誠：對。"],["羅委員明才：那以前是臺北縣的時候大概補助多少？"],["陳署長柏誠：我們在會後再跟委員報告。"],["羅委員明才：520快到了，很多事情就應該如火如荼展開，閣員都大致底定了以後，很多法我們就開始要具體審查，相關的問題請你準備好，數字準備好。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。"],["羅委員明才：我提出一個比喻，凍省之前，事實上那時候是把權力大幅度下放給地方的，可是凍省之後，中央把很多的權力都收回去了，這個必須要做一個調整。"],["莊部長翠雲：在當時精省的時候，其實負債中央也承接了，一併承接了省的負債。"],["羅委員明才：好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：好，那部長請回。","最後就是麻煩主席請一下金管會主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：主委，我送你幾個字，就是你辛苦了，但是我覺得這就是人生造化，要是我是你，我會覺得很委屈，做了那麼多，結果被自己執政黨裡面第一線的或是幾個人群起霸凌，這個是我覺得最匪夷所思的事情。然後他們抓一個跟你不相干的事情來霸凌你，有種就對著誰來啊，怎麼會去影響別人？講誰，講東講西，講那麼大，如果那麼認真會講的話，為什麼不想想過去立法院歷任院長、副院長、行政院長？拜託，哪一個人沒有請客吃飯過？一個小小的事情可以無限上綱，所以我覺得對你我有一個感覺，就是感到不捨。不過就人生的際遇，我還是有幾個字要送給你，就是「海闊天空」，以你的能力，以你過去成功的經驗，要找你的人會很多，你可以貢獻的地方還多得多，在這裡就是最後祝福你，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅明才委員質詢。","接著請林楚茵委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-8","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","王世堅","顏寬恒","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","羅明才","林楚茵","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","吳春城","陳亭妃","王定宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就\n「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.45284375,"end":0.8240937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.7353437500000002,"end":3.7434687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.0259687500000005,"end":6.814718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.03409375,"end":7.472843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.87784375,"end":8.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.68346875,"end":10.375343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.24784375,"end":17.344718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.56846875,"end":17.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.01971875,"end":19.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.297843750000002,"end":23.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.774093750000002,"end":24.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.25909375,"end":26.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.94659375,"end":28.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.12784375,"end":30.456593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.945968750000002,"end":32.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.44346875,"end":33.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.16909375,"end":34.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.11409375,"end":36.126593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.46409375,"end":37.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.38784375,"end":41.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.06659375,"end":42.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.02846875,"end":46.555343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.297843750000006,"end":48.259718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.64784375,"end":50.166593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.976593750000006,"end":51.752843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.34346875,"end":54.773468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.92534375,"end":55.937843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.659093750000004,"end":67.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.71659375,"end":74.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.92221875,"end":78.58409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.74846875,"end":81.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.84096875,"end":86.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.00471875000001,"end":89.13096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.51909375000001,"end":90.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.66659375,"end":91.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.98284375,"end":92.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.64096875,"end":94.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.30721875,"end":96.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.42096875,"end":97.36596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.58534375,"end":100.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.72409375000001,"end":105.16221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.15784375000001,"end":106.61346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.98471875000001,"end":110.19096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.52846875,"end":112.09784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.86971875,"end":120.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.68721875000001,"end":121.83471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.79659375000001,"end":125.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.07034375,"end":128.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.95596875,"end":130.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.08221875,"end":132.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.66846875000002,"end":134.27159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.15721875,"end":137.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.06846875000002,"end":138.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.96284375000002,"end":139.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.19034375,"end":145.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.82659375,"end":148.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.34534375,"end":151.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.50909375,"end":154.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.65659375,"end":155.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.29346875000002,"end":157.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.20034375,"end":158.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.36471875,"end":161.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.26721875,"end":165.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.26659375,"end":166.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.99221875,"end":170.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.62034375000002,"end":173.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.29909375,"end":177.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.96096875,"end":185.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.63909375,"end":186.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.42784375000002,"end":191.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.05159375000002,"end":194.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.65034375000002,"end":195.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.18596875,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.29971875,"end":205.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.66971875000002,"end":210.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.69846875000002,"end":213.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.78659375,"end":221.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.93721875000003,"end":222.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.91596875000002,"end":224.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.00846875000002,"end":225.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.27409375000002,"end":227.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.60721875000002,"end":229.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.16784375,"end":232.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.92284375000003,"end":234.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.81284375,"end":235.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.33159375000002,"end":236.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.20909375000002,"end":237.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.05284375000002,"end":239.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.38159375,"end":241.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.69346875000002,"end":243.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.43596875000003,"end":244.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.68471875,"end":245.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.44409375,"end":246.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.89534375000002,"end":248.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.29159375,"end":249.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.18596875000003,"end":250.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.58659375000002,"end":256.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.95284375,"end":257.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.08346875,"end":259.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.85534375000003,"end":261.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.91784375000003,"end":266.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.29721875,"end":269.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.47409375,"end":270.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.77346875,"end":271.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.38096875,"end":275.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.48159375,"end":281.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.74221875,"end":284.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.79659375,"end":286.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.07471875000005,"end":288.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.53846875,"end":290.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.46659375,"end":291.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.08221875000004,"end":306.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.86909375000005,"end":312.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.37034375,"end":347.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.19596875,"end":354.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.42284375,"end":361.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.47659375,"end":366.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.50534375,"end":380.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.01784375,"end":381.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.89534375000005,"end":389.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.21471875000003,"end":397.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.43284375,"end":401.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.63909375000003,"end":403.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.00159375000004,"end":413.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.14784375000005,"end":413.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.04221875,"end":417.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.60284375000003,"end":417.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.00784375,"end":418.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.88534375,"end":425.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.02784375000005,"end":427.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.07846875,"end":425.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.51721875000004,"end":425.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.63534375,"end":426.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.82909375,"end":430.44471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.81596875,"end":433.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.46096875,"end":435.82784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.28346875000005,"end":444.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.27409375,"end":442.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.26409375000003,"end":459.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.61284375,"end":466.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.91159375,"end":472.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.49346875000003,"end":470.38784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.60721875,"end":471.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.90659375,"end":471.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.27346875,"end":474.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.83846875,"end":479.80409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.04034375000003,"end":491.54909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.07221875000005,"end":493.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.54034375000003,"end":494.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.13096875,"end":502.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.63596875,"end":507.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.77409375,"end":516.4228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.5915937500001,"end":517.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.9709687500001,"end":519.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.88221875,"end":520.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.5065937500001,"end":520.9284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.24471875,"end":523.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.94909375,"end":525.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.80534375,"end":527.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.20159375,"end":529.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.4409687500001,"end":536.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.92596875,"end":539.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.0647187500001,"end":542.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.6928437500001,"end":545.5490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.2409687500001,"end":550.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.7590937500001,"end":552.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.8347187500001,"end":555.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.0915937500001,"end":557.9015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.86346875,"end":559.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.05721875,"end":564.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.14096875,"end":565.5459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.7778437500001,"end":569.0559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.1572187500001,"end":570.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.3172187499999,"end":572.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.5828437499999,"end":574.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.2153437500001,"end":575.9240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.0378437500001,"end":578.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.26534375,"end":581.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.37471875,"end":582.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.8428437499999,"end":584.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.71596875,"end":585.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.52159375,"end":587.4497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.25971875,"end":591.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.6515937500001,"end":594.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.7565937500001,"end":595.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.1740937500001,"end":597.6928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.1315937500001,"end":599.7009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.07221875,"end":600.5615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.78096875,"end":602.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.00409375,"end":605.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.84346875,"end":607.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.34096875,"end":609.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.2690937500001,"end":609.8428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.5178437500001,"end":610.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.02409375,"end":614.3315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.05721875,"end":615.4115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.50846875,"end":617.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.8247187500001,"end":622.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.1909687500001,"end":623.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.98409375,"end":624.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.8953437499999,"end":625.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.46471875,"end":626.6840937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.441,"end":10.067,"text":"主席各位很出列的習官員大家好主席先請一下莊部長我請莊部長委員好 是其實在財經界"},{"start":20.653,"end":46.346,"text":"整個國家的金融發展在金管會也好、央行也好、財政部也好這個大概就是財經三大巨頭都是非常重要的那過去大概8年的這個時間一路走來那事實上金管會也扮演非常重要的角色"},{"start":47.369,"end":54.537,"text":"你對著在這個一路走來這個整個銀行證券保險的發展你覺得怎麼樣跟委員報告我想那個目的事業主管機關金管會其實在這個金融業不管證券還有保險或銀行等各方面都"},{"start":67.799,"end":72.022,"text":"金融的穩定很重要所以大致在整個目前台灣的發展金融圈裡面對於這整體的評價大概都是覺得可圈可點"},{"start":95.493,"end":121.289,"text":"其實那裡面的貢獻大概都是財經三長大家可以用幾個字來形容叫做有目共睹但是你現在要小心你現在陳正波的部長任期多久了在112年的1月31號就任所以大概一年多一夜之秋"},{"start":123.507,"end":150.182,"text":"最近大家可以看得到整個荒腔走板的宮廷內鬥劇活生生的就在立法院上演那我們看到最可惜的就是對財經界貢獻很多的我們突然發現為什麼台灣股市上幾點上兩萬點了"},{"start":153.587,"end":164.815,"text":"所有的銀行界消息息的因為截至上一次的數據分析啊銀行金融界已經賺了大概七八千億"},{"start":167.065,"end":187.933,"text":"另外保險當然有點過去有點因為COVID-19的問題中央政策造成決策的錯誤沒有辦法不過也慢慢都穩定下來了銀行的預放現在也大概是歷史以來的新低這個其實這個整個三個財經首長貢獻都很大所以我們看到這個主委黃主委"},{"start":196.38,"end":223.638,"text":"居然沒有沒有沒有請黃主委坐就好這一路走來我們也是要一個心理的一個分享覺得就是他一路走來也無風雨也無情那這個情叫做無情的情啊你想想看一個執政黨的好的官員結果被自己執政黨的所有人幾個人群起攻擊"},{"start":225.046,"end":250.617,"text":"好造成中華民國失去了一個很好的金管會的主委這個實在是比八點檔宮廷俱還要令人嘆為觀止所以我是覺得莊部長你接下來因為520還沒到還沒有正式發布你也都要"},{"start":251.976,"end":261.687,"text":"這個小新的繼續把該做的事情都做好其中有一個大家關心的是財政收支劃分法對地方的照顧地方偶爾逮捕這個部分要"},{"start":271.953,"end":290.724,"text":"趕緊想一個好的方式為民發聲畢竟我們在這邊開會第一個想的都是國家至上還有一個這個民眾第一這邊在後面我後面這個地方希望大家念之再之啊趕緊把才化法做好部長準備好了嗎"},{"start":293.343,"end":311.879,"text":"跟委員報告有關財化法這個修正的事情齁其實財政部一直都沒有停歇過那我們這個部分有關對於各地方政府未來就是財化法怎麼去分配的部分也在請地方政府表達意見那各地方政府也把相關的意見來了但是有一些"},{"start":312.64,"end":328.239,"text":"有關分配的指標部分它的內容跟它的內涵到底指的是什麼我們會跟地方政府再進一步的釐清然後我們會適時的開會然後尋求最大一個共識那就在分配的部分必須要再看看要怎麼做然後求取共識"},{"start":329,"end":342.304,"text":"然後才能夠往前再走一步我想這個部分財政部一直都沒有停歇過是那雖然財化法沒有修正但是中央對地方的一個財源的挹注其實一直有增加在112年比105年已經增加了2000多億就中央挹注地方的財源"},{"start":348.046,"end":349.507,"text":"不過那個都是杯水車薪因為現在變六都了事實上"},{"start":375.984,"end":389.136,"text":"臺北縣升格成為新北市,當然希望它整個該給人民的福利或是一些社會福利的制度是可以大幅度的成長的,不然這個"},{"start":391.008,"end":418.297,"text":"臺北縣升格為新北市變成直轄市變成六都那又如何所以這方面多加油請問一下統籌稅款全部一年大概加起來有多少應該到幾千億吧應該今年是兩千四千沒有加裝補助款才有四千元有的再加上這幾年稅收都超徵四千元"},{"start":419.955,"end":420.896,"text":"請國庫署來做一個縣市的說明"},{"start":452.707,"end":468.962,"text":"新北市的部分目前中央統籌分配稅款是468億那以前台北縣的時候是大概補助多少因為接著本席就要"},{"start":475.882,"end":501.819,"text":"那個520快到了很多事情就應該如火如荼那如果整個閣員大概都大致抵定了以後很多法我們就開始要開始要來具體的審查相關的問題請你準備好數字準備好是謝謝委員一個比例就是動審之前事實上那時候是權益是很大幅度下放地方的"},{"start":502.688,"end":529.487,"text":"可是動審之後,中央把很多的權力都收回去了,這個必須要做一個調整。當時經審的時候,其實負債中央也承接了,一併承接了審的負債。好,謝謝。謝謝。那部長請回。那最後就是,麻煩請一下主席,請中央會主委,"},{"start":536.956,"end":563.671,"text":"所以大概幾個字就是你辛苦了但是我覺得人生造化要是我是你我也覺得很委屈做了那麼多這個被自己執政黨裡面的第一線的或者是說有幾個人群起霸凌這個是我覺得是匪夷所思的事情"},{"start":565.182,"end":593.577,"text":"然後抓一個跟你不相干的事情有種就對著誰來啊怎麼會去影響講誰講東講西講那麼大啊如果這麼認真會講的話為什麼不想想過去的立法院、立任的院長、副院長、行政院長拜託啊哪一個人沒有請客吃飯過一個小小的事情可以無限上崗"},{"start":594.81,"end":613.648,"text":"所以我覺得對你一個就是感到不捨不過人生的機遇上還是有幾個字要送給你叫做海闊天空以你的能力以你的過去的這個成功的經驗"},{"start":616.811,"end":616.991,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151296","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151296","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627d0dd74dce529aa440915613d02a5e1dcc5dab72e655c1c9405ff796f0744bca55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"12:02:24 - 12:12:47","影片長度":"00:10:23","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（4月17日及18日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":623,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:12:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T12:02:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":709,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（12時2分）謝謝葉元之委員，我們對這個高齡教育的議題，在觀念上面是完全一致，共同努力。請潘部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["吳委員春城：今天都在談為私校請命，開放私校轉型，重啟教育生機，這個議題大家前面都有關注過了，那教改30年，現在廣設大學過剩，其實這個看起來破洞百出，縫縫補補，教育部、教育人員都很辛苦，所以看起來真的需要再一次重新的教改，教育需要大改革啦！因為這個問題非常複雜，我也相信我們的事務官都無力可回天，也因為這個問題很複雜，接任的部長一開始一定也是很保守地面對這麼複雜的問題，所以看起來改革的機會其實不大，這件事情又要再縫縫補補3年、錯過時機，潘部長算是在位最久的教育部長，你問題看得最深入，過去有很多事情因為你人在江湖、身不由己，這些我都可以理解，但是我希望這個時候你可以好好地把你的見解……因為必須要有這樣的見解才有辦法解決這個問題，你不是揮揮手，不留一片雲彩，我希望你還是可以繼續地貢獻長期以來你對教育的一些想法，過去有些可能不方便講，現在應該要大聲疾呼。","好，首先，我覺得應該可以承認廣設大學是錯誤的政策，因為要面對問題才有辦法可以解決問題，是嗎？部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，應該這樣子說，其實我有詳細地閱讀當時的審議報告書，其實它是一個方向，就是考量當時的狀況，但是處理的過程，第一個，這是結構的問題，當時增設的大學滿多都是從專科到技術學院、到科大。"],["吳委員春城：都是直接升級。"],["潘部長文忠：因為那是一個結構，委員大概瞭解我的意思，因為產業需求人力也是一個結構，整個社會、各個人力需求也是一個結構，如果要走一致化，我認為速度很快，因為短短不到10年，就是委員看到的這個數字變化，如果從這個角度來看，確實我們現在必須要面對當時的狀況，就是一個階段已經減少了。"],["吳委員春城：對，可是這個過程，我們不是要追究責任，其實這也不是你做的，這是30年前的事情，只是這條路線，至少從人口結構，因為當時是用前面這個金字塔型，但是這整個變遷過程你也看得出來，你看，1970年0到14歲有39.7%，到了2040年只剩下10.2%，剩下四分之一，這是一定的趨勢，所以未來這個問題會繼續，目前還不是探底的時候，所以我們必須要面對問題、承認問題，這樣我們才有辦法改善。改善也沒有關係，但是現在看起來，從我們推出退場條例之後，退場好像是剩下來唯一的路，而且目前這個退場政策還會加速死刑，私校工會預估未來5年將會有40所的私校面臨退場的危機，有將近7,600位教師會失業，請問教育部準備好了嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，當然，少子化是一個很清楚的數據，我也跟委員報告，今天的報告也有特別提出來，在大學校院，其實臺灣的高教資源和素質是不錯的，面對這方面，除了國內生源減少，其實這一段我們還是很努力地在做2件事，我就講關鍵的，一個就是學校在數量和自己的經營上有做一個比較合理的，就是我們講的「適格的瘦身」，因為過去有些學校的作法就是這樣。另外一個就是境外學生的招生，目前我們所採取的這些鼓勵學校的措施，這幾年雖然面對疫情，也有看到成效。但是這一段路學校也很辛苦，因為你要能夠有這樣的條件，我要跟委員說，它會是一個努力的過程，當然，如果這個過程學校投入得不夠，財務影響會是最大的因素。"],["吳委員春城：好，謝謝部長。其實我來自於企業，企業中有一個心法，就是「阻力是進步的動力」，天下沒有都是很順的，廣設大學政策，然後哇！大學就很多了，現在因為少子化退場，那數量一定會下降，但我們有沒有辦法讓它再重生？其實企業是不斷的……如果事情都是順境的話，那就不會改革，也不會改變。同樣的，在公部門遇到問題就是最佳的改革時機，如果都很順的話，我們也不用討論這個問題，所以行政部門要重啟教育的生機就是在這個時候，這是最好的時機，如果你都很順，那沒有人會聽你的話，所以遇到困難就是我們進步的動力。","但是我們現在都只看到夕陽，我們都在等它下山，但是太陽下山之後就會更好嗎？會帶來多大的災難？我們有沒有看到旭日？現在都是重退場、輕轉型，所有的心力都在做退場，啊！你要不要退？如果是企業就不會這樣做事情，因為企業投入這麼多的資源，如果這條路走不順、走不通，外界環境改變的時候，我就會善用這些資源轉向另外一個，企業往往會在轉型的過程中發展得更好，所有企業成功的故事都是這個樣子，我希望我們的公部門也能夠這個樣子。","當然，「第三人生大學」已經談過很多了，剛才葉元之委員也有提到，現在日本不把樂齡大學當做休閒，而是重啟他的第三人生。為什麼我們的大學只能讓16歲的人入學，不能讓60歲的人入學？這個也是很奇怪的觀念。16歲入學就是從第一人生培養第二人生，那我們現在多出一個第三人生，從第二人生進入第三人生當然也要進大學，60歲不是進養老院，而是進大學，希望教育部高喊這樣子的主張，這樣會振奮人心，現在有600萬人等著教育部這樣振奮人心的政策，我們要有決心往這一條路走，而且要呼籲大家，這個可以讓你很充實且實現自我，而且還會讓整個社會、臺灣更強壯，讓整個產業及下一代有希望。"],["潘部長文忠：是，我跟委員報告，上次我跟委員請教得到委員這個訊息後，為什麼我會請終身司儘快組一個專案小組？原因就是在既有的基礎上，是不是委員所提到的這個，部分的學校可以開始展開這方面？我想這個後續再請委員繼續指教。"],["吳委員春城：好，最後，很感謝部長認同第三人生大學，而且現在還有推動小組，我們也有跟推動小組討論，不過目前這個好像還是在終身教育司，這個層次的編制、位階和經費是沒辦法解決這個問題的，請問現在有沒有一個組織、編制是由次長來督導？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，為什麼我當時會說先組小組？因為我們必須要先做盤整，我贊同委員剛才提到的，如果就教育部這個體系而言，這個應該要跨過終身司，因為這裡面有很多都跟高教、技職這2個司有關，後續比較合理的規劃會請一位督導的次長來擔任召集人。"],["吳委員春城：部長，你可不可以交待？至少你要把這個交下去。"],["潘部長文忠：OK！"],["吳委員春城：不然我們好不容易努力地走到這裡，可能又要走回頭路。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，因為時間有點短，但是我要跟委員報告，當時我覺得這個有必要，所以我就啟動了，目前我們和學界有一些討論，我想等基礎有些輪廓後，未來在推動上一定要跨司處。"],["吳委員春城：OK！部長，在你交棒的時候一定要把這個交下去。"],["潘部長文忠：我覺得這在臺灣高齡社會，未來高教資源在運用上，我認為這是很必要的。"],["吳委員春城：好，這點拜託部長。"],["潘部長文忠：瞭解，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員春城：謝謝部長。"],["主席：好，謝謝2位，謝謝。","接下來我們請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-8","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","吳春城","范雲","張嘉郡","羅智強","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","廖偉翔","莊瑞雄","劉建國","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.025343750000001,"end":11.708468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.817843750000002,"end":24.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.95534375,"end":25.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.79909375,"end":34.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.10534375,"end":52.360343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.86659375,"end":84.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.97971875,"end":132.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.87096875,"end":133.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.73159375,"end":134.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.76096875000002,"end":136.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.37221875,"end":146.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.89409375,"end":152.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.53034375000001,"end":152.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.68221875,"end":193.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.69909375,"end":152.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.50721875000002,"end":167.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.34159375000002,"end":172.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.31159375000001,"end":176.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.97159375,"end":191.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.08534375000002,"end":223.20284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.87784375,"end":230.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.74596875,"end":244.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.85346875000002,"end":258.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.89346875,"end":262.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.63534375,"end":264.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.39471875000004,"end":281.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.60721875,"end":282.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.10909375,"end":341.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.61471875,"end":287.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.73034375000003,"end":330.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.40409375,"end":339.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.68659375000004,"end":340.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.87221875,"end":341.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.76659375,"end":372.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.22159375,"end":395.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.61034375,"end":438.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.89909375,"end":459.87471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.44846875,"end":499.91909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.37596875,"end":492.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.54784375,"end":518.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.59409375,"end":500.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.93846875,"end":511.69784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.8703437500001,"end":515.1740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.9709687500001,"end":550.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.5834687500001,"end":541.6003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.0378437500001,"end":554.1553437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.49284375,"end":558.8972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.15034375,"end":577.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.9640937500001,"end":562.9809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.04846875,"end":563.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.74409375,"end":570.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.97471875,"end":576.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.3078437500001,"end":577.4428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.57784375,"end":577.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.8647187500001,"end":588.4622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.3190937500001,"end":604.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.21596875,"end":598.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.1397187499999,"end":600.4265937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.1772187500001,"end":603.2278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.0378437500001,"end":608.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.46346875,"end":609.4209687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.9990937499999,"end":609.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.45471875,"end":615.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.00721875,"end":611.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.63096875,"end":619.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.90034375,"end":621.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.44034375,"end":620.5247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.97596875,"end":621.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":623.0559687500001,"end":623.5959687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.752,"end":2.015,"text":"主席"},{"start":9.056,"end":34.176,"text":"好 我們謝謝岳元智委員對我們在高齡教育的議題觀念上面是完全一致共同努力那我們請潘部長好 請部長我今天都在談為私校請命開放私校的轉型重啟教育的生機"},{"start":37.168,"end":51.764,"text":"那這一題大家前面都關注過了那這個教改30年然後現在大學廣設大學過剩那其實這個是一個看起來"},{"start":52.932,"end":57.675,"text":"我相信我們的事務官都無力可回天"},{"start":77.266,"end":97.9,"text":"因為這問題很複雜接任的部長一開始一定也很保守面對這麼複雜的問題所以看起來改革的機會其實不大所以這事情又要再逢逢不補三年那錯過時機所以今天我就是說這個潘部長算是我們在位最久的教育部長"},{"start":98.2,"end":98.48,"text":"主席"},{"start":113.626,"end":113.866,"text":"首先我覺得"},{"start":138.41,"end":138.57,"text":"是嗎?部長"},{"start":147.443,"end":171.582,"text":"我應該這樣子說其實我有詳細閱讀當時的審議報告書它其實是一個方向考量當時的但是在整個處理的過程我覺得我應該這樣子說第一個是結構的問題當時增設的蠻多都是從專科到技術學院到科大因為那是一個結構我大概了解我意思因為產業需求人力也是一個結構"},{"start":172.363,"end":195.145,"text":"對對對對對"},{"start":195.345,"end":195.765,"text":"現在你看1970年又0到14歲39.7%"},{"start":223.965,"end":241.01,"text":"到2011年只剩下10.2%剩下三分之一四分之一這個是一定的趨勢所以未來一定這個問題會繼續目前還不是探底的時候所以我們必須要面對問題承認問題我們才有辦法改善 來"},{"start":245.567,"end":262.589,"text":"但是好改善也沒有關係就是現在看起來從我們的退場條例之後這個退場好像只剩下唯一的路而且這個退場條例目前的這個政策有加速死刑"},{"start":263.666,"end":265.126,"text":"請問這樣子教育部準備好了嗎?"},{"start":283.2,"end":297.803,"text":"根文報告這個當然少子化是一個很清楚的數據那現在為根文報告今天的報告也特別提出來在大學校園其實台灣這個高校的資源還有我們的素質其實是不錯"},{"start":298.885,"end":316.626,"text":"面對這方面除了國內的生源減少其實這一段很努力的在做兩件我講關鍵的一個就是學校能夠在整個數量跟自己的經營上做一個比較合理的我們講的叫做事格的瘦身這個是一個因為過去有學學校是這樣的做法"},{"start":316.946,"end":342.602,"text":"另外一個就是對於一些境外的學生的招生目前我們所採取的這些鼓勵學校的措施這幾年雖然面對疫情也看到有成效但這一段路學校也很辛苦因為你要能夠有這樣的條件這個是我跟委員說他會是一個在努力的過程當然如果這個過程學校投入不夠財務影響是最大的因素那個謝謝部長"},{"start":345.163,"end":372.357,"text":"其實我是來自於企業啦企業當中有一個心法就是主力就是進步的動力沒有天下沒有那個很順的我們看到廣設大學政策然後就哇大學人很多嘛那些因為少子化退場一定會下降嘛有沒有辦法讓他再重生其實企業喔企業是不斷的因為人都很舒適的在一條如果事情都是順境的話都不會改革都不會改變"},{"start":373.297,"end":394.951,"text":"同樣的我們在公部門當中遇到的這就是改革的最佳時機如果很順的話我們也不用討論這個問題但是我們行政部門我們是重啟教育的生機就是在這時候最好的時機如果你很順沒有人會聽你的話所以遇到困難就是我們進步的動力有這個"},{"start":396.673,"end":410.498,"text":"但是呢我們現在都只看到夕陽都在等著它下山下山下山以後有什麼就會更好嗎而且會帶來多大的災難其實有沒有看到所以現在整個的就是重退場輕轉型"},{"start":412.279,"end":413.02,"text":"我看到我們的教育我們的公部門也能夠這樣子"},{"start":438.939,"end":459.58,"text":"那當然這個已經有談過很多的第三人生大學這個日本現在在這個就是剛才提到我們的議員之委員提到的就不是現在的樂齡大學把他當作休閒啦而是重啟他的第三人生因為我們的大學為什麼都是只是讓16歲入學呢不能讓60歲入學呢這個也是一個很奇怪的觀念"},{"start":461.021,"end":486.916,"text":"16歲入學就是從第一人生要培養第二人生那我們現在人生多出一個第三人生出來從第二人生進入第三人生當然你也要進大學啊60歲不是進年老院而是進大學希望教育部高喊這樣子的主張會振奮人心啊現在這個有600萬人在等著教育部這樣子振奮人心的有決心我們要往這條路走而且呼籲大家"},{"start":488.217,"end":517.136,"text":"您有一個有一個很充實的實現自我而且會讓整個社會讓台灣更強壯讓整個產業而且下一代有希望我跟委員報告上次跟委員請教得到委員這個訊息之後我為什麼會請鍾先生儘快組成一個專案小組原因我就覺得說在既有這樣的一個基礎上是不是委員所提到的這個能夠就有部分的學校可以開始做這方面展開這個我想後續來請"},{"start":522.798,"end":539.987,"text":"現在部長也很感謝部長對第三人生大學有認同而且現在有推動小組我們也跟推動小組討論不過現在目前好像還是在終身學習師這個層次因為他們的編制跟位置跟經費是沒辦法解決這個問題的"},{"start":543.129,"end":560.408,"text":"請問現在有沒有一個組織一個編制是由次長什麼樣來督導為什麼說當時先組小組因為這個其實是應該就目前我們所要先做一個盤整那這個後續我贊同委員剛才提到的"},{"start":561.148,"end":576.897,"text":"如果就教育部這個體系而言是應該要跨過中生師因為這個裡面很多都跟高教技職這兩個師啦如果後續這個我想比較合理的規劃會是請督導的一位次長來擔任召集人"},{"start":577.958,"end":589.884,"text":"那個部長你可不可以就要交代至少你要把這個交下去不然的話就是好不容易我們很努力的走到這裡因為時間有點短但是委員當時我跟委員報告說這個我覺得有必要我就啟動那我想現在目前他也找相關實務跟這個學界有一些討論我想這個基礎比較有一個輪廓後我想未來再推動上一定要跨市處"},{"start":604.57,"end":617.137,"text":"所以部長在你交棒的時候一定要把這個交下去我覺得這是一個未來很值得臺灣高齡社會在這個教育資源高教資源的應用上我認為是一個很必要的就是這一點這個拜託部長了解謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151290","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151290","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016274d3f1226e92c6c58068d0b55d8f96a4ec5dab72e655c1c94158e5f3beada05b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"11:55:26 - 12:11:14","影片長度":"00:15:48","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":948,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:11:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:55:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":348,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（11時55分）謝謝主席，那我們有請部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：徐委員好。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長好。我們知道現在國軍正在如火如荼進行漢光演習的準備，在第二階段的電腦輔助指揮所演習，時間是在4月19號到26號的8天7夜。我想要先請問部長，我們在全國軍旅級以上需要參演的單位，他們在19到26號的假單，我們都簽核過了嗎？"],["邱部長國正：這是公務統一帶過來……"],["陳次長文星：報告委員，我是聯三次長。這一次我們只針對旅級以上的指揮所來實施演練。其他營級以下的，都是維持正常的運作，包含他的休假跟外散事務，我們都不管制。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我們來看一下，因為有滿多人提出來的，我們看一下那張圖片，這個是他們在內部裡面談到所謂的請假的部分，陸勤部的參謀長昨天晚上跟我們回報，要禮拜四18號下班前才要去批示這個假單。","現在演習時間已經快到了，你可以看它這個對話內容是問有人要請假嗎？是不是19到26號？他說「對」。然後對方回答他說：「NO」。他就說：「可是如果我們是有合理事故加證明的情況之下」。對方回答他說：「我們沒有」，然後「還是因為你們連假單都不給送」。那對方回答說：「對」。","我想要請問一下，像這樣子的對話，它的情況是什麼？如果我們的軍人弟兄真的有要事要請假的話，現在的狀態是連假單都不能去遞送的情形嗎？"],["劉參謀長青勳：委員好，我是陸勤部參謀長，向您說明一下。因為這一次是8天7夜，我們也非常清楚說跟往常的休假方式有改變，因為以往是5天4夜……"],["徐委員巧芯：對。"],["劉參謀長青勳：那這一次的話，從這個禮拜五到下禮拜五。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們知道。"],["劉參謀長青勳：我們會審慎評估之後，跟我們同仁講清楚、說明白。基本上他們有相關事故的部分，完成相關的佐證資料，都已經奉核，可以批示，沒有問題。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。"],["劉參謀長青勳：那後續如果有靈機性的婚喪喜慶的情況之下，也會個案來處理，跟您報告。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。那我希望你們可以去調查一下你們在陸軍司令部裡面的情況，因為或許你的認知是如此，但是我們在執行下去的時候，我們可以看到很清楚，這裡面的對話，相關人我們都查核過，確認有此事，只是因為今天要保護人家，所以我們姑隱其名，但是我是確認過情況的。","所以既然你也說到了，如果今天我們的國軍弟兄即便在這個情況下他要請假，他有合理的理由，你們不應該連假單都不給送。假單送了之後，你要核或不核，他所謂的合理事故合不合理，你們可以做評斷，但是我覺得不應該讓我們的國軍弟兄連假單送出去都不行。這個部分可不可以回去研究一下？"],["劉參謀長青勳：是。跟委員報告，溝通上出點問題而已，基本上這個相關我們會依據他的實際需求來實質地審認。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝！麻煩這件事情你們要回去做處理。","再來我們要問的是潛艦國造的部分，大家都非常地關心。我想要問一下邱部長，去年9月的時候您談過，潛艦國造的進度都是按照節點在管制的，請問當時您談這件事情的理由是什麼？為什麼當時你談到，我們在後續的潛艦預算編列是用節點管制的方式，在接下來的幾個測試通過之後，我們會陸續再慢慢地建軍。我想請您再重新說明一下，當時在9月的時候我們的整個規劃方向。"],["邱部長國正：每個工作推動有它的階段性，這就叫節點管制，重要節點我們把它管控了以後，有什麼好處呢？他可能準備不夠周延的，我們已經看出來。你要準備不夠周延，這個節點你達不到，我們要督促他。至於後續艦的建造，我當時也有講過，沒有錯！一定要經過我們測評以後，第一艘原艦沒有問題，才能夠投注於後面。那目前測評正在做嘛！測評正在做，那我們就講也得要預劃。如果做成，後面就要建案，但是這個不是一蹴可成的。總目標不會變，國艦國造、國機國造，但是我們節點管控是有必要的。"],["徐委員巧芯：是，好。我是非常同意剛剛邱部長講到的節點管制的部分，因為我們大家對於國艦國造都有期待，我們也希望一艘一艘地能夠依次、依序做好、辦好，所以我也覺得當時沒有去編列後續的預算，是因為我們前面的測試還沒有完成，這樣子的一個處理方式跟措施是正確的。","所以我想要問一下，在接下來的海鯤號，你們有預計什麼時候要去做HAT跟SAT的測試了嗎？你們就針對可以說的部分說就好了。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["邵參事維揚：報告委員，海鯤號目前正在執行HAT測試，HAT測試要全部完成之後，我們接續才會執行出海測試，所以說現在並沒有一個很明確的時間表。"],["徐委員巧芯：好。沒有很明確的時間表的情況之下，我們又配合剛剛談到的整個節點管制，後續所謂編列第2艘國艦國造的部分，會不會跟著這個期程有所往後延期的情況？請教部長。"],["邱部長國正：起步，他一定會看前面的結果，才能夠決定哪一天下一個叫起步。但這個計畫的起步時間點，我們用X也可以，用D也可以。整個計畫已經在做了，至於哪一天，那會變……"],["徐委員巧芯：知道。"],["邱部長國正：計畫一樣要做。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問一下，我們在SAT測試完成之前，會去編列第2艘的潛艦預算嗎？"],["邱部長國正：你們看，要作業費嘛！"],["邵參事維揚：報告委員，我們國軍的建軍主要是計畫等於預算，如果我們等到第一條船交艦之後才開始整備這個計畫，那我們可能要花相當的時間。"],["徐委員巧芯：那我請問一下，我們在第一艘的SAT測試做完之前，會編列第3艘潛艦計畫的預算嗎？我們不要講第2艘，第3艘會編嗎？"],["邵參事維揚：其實我們現在正在洽談中，因為預算到底要多少，報紙上面寫了很多的數字，都不一樣。不管是委員從哪邊拿到的資料，都不一樣，代表這個計畫預算編列部分是相當複雜的。我們剛剛……"],["徐委員巧芯：我們談的是一個邏……"],["邵參事維揚：讓我多講30秒，好不好？"],["徐委員巧芯：好，沒問題。來，請說。"],["邵參事維揚：我們剛剛在機密會議裡面已經說過，影響到裝備價款的部分有很多因素，包括……"],["徐委員巧芯：這個部分我還沒有問啦！我沒有要你講機密的部分，因為我要問的是一個邏輯。如果我們剛剛談的是所謂的節點管制必要性，我們也同意部長的說法，那大家也覺得你今天有做完海上測試之後，確認沒問題，你要開始啟動下一艘船艦，依序、依次地做法是合理的，我們都來支持。如果您剛剛談到的是，怕第一艘完成之後才編第2艘，中間會有一個空窗期，可是怎麼會又編到第3艘去呢？就是說你第一艘海上測試完之後，到了第2艘，這個中間有一個空窗期，所以你先編一些業務的費用，這個我們也能夠理解。","但是如果一次地把第2艘，不要講第3艘了，直接編到第8艘，直接把第2艘編到第8艘，全部兩千多億元以上一次編進去，這個有符合我們剛剛所說的包含節點管制的邏輯嗎？在邏輯上面來說，是不是有一些相違背的地方呢？部長？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，像剛才前面有委員給我們指導，預算編列都還沒有定，是逐年編，還是專案編，這也在研擬當中……"],["徐委員巧芯：對，我們問的是這個邏輯上面，您覺得怎麼樣做比較正確？"],["邱部長國正：邏輯就是，他剛剛已經講得很清楚，叫計畫等於預算。我計畫都出來了，對不對？哪怕講最後編滿，那個計畫都出來了，但哪一天開始那個D日，那就要看我們前面進展如何。"],["徐委員巧芯：計畫出來了，那它配著預算要通過嗎？這是兩件不同的事。我們並不反對要把整個計畫都準備好，但是預算要編列，然後先通過嗎？這個是問題啊！"],["邱部長國正：不一定……"],["徐委員巧芯：不一定？"],["邱部長國正：你前面測試沒有過，後面編了預算，我也用不了啊！因為前面缺點要改過來啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：好，所以這個方向上的邏輯，今天講得比較清楚了。那再來我想要問一下，陳建仁院長前幾天突然要求軍中要推行轉型正義的教育，請問一下邱部長，您覺得目前在國軍裡面，哪一個部分要轉型正義了？"],["邱部長國正：這個我還沒有了解，軍中哪邊要轉型正義，軍中……"],["徐委員巧芯：他叫你們一個月以內，要籌設軍中轉型正義的外部專家諮詢小組，要朝向軍中……"],["邱部長國正：其實我們平常都有在跟轉型正義的工作人員，有相關部隊的會或軍中的會，他們都找我去開，在開會當中我們也會表達。當然我們軍中有很多做法也不能完全違背外面，但軍中有些機敏的，它不能跟外面一樣，所以我們該要堅持的堅持。"],["徐委員巧芯：是。"],["邱部長國正：至於我們要成立一個小組，我研究的方向也就如此，哪些可以配合，哪些不能配合。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我們現在軍中的轉型正義的推動，部長你自己感覺到，有哪些事情是行政院希望你們來推動的？他們有沒有告訴你們，他要在軍中推動轉型正義教育，到底是在哪一個方面上，他覺得軍中沒有，因為一定是他覺得沒有做好，做的不夠多，才會希望推動來做，那是哪一個部分呢？"],["邱部長國正：假如他把這個項目講得很明確的話，我們就針對這個項目，明確的……"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那我請問一下，因為陳院長也沒有講得很清楚，如果是要求軍中要去除所有的蔣介石的銅像，部長，這樣子的轉型正義，您同意嗎？"],["邱部長國正：我已經講過了，這方面我有討論過，當初的規範很清楚，在公開場合他要怎麼處理我沒有意見，但營區是我們的財產，營區裡面所有東西都是國軍的財產，只要沒有違法，為什麼要去變呢？這我一貫的堅持啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：好。"],["邱部長國正：目前假如說要我們來做的話，光這一點，我有我的堅持，但我絕對要講得很清楚，不要認為我們行政團隊在那邊攪局。假如那個界定不清楚，第一個你講軍中是個開放團體，那我就問各位能不能接受？就光這一條，我不是開放團體，不是開放團體，這代表我的資產，我的資產要怎麼用？只要沒有違法，沒有去變賣，沒有去改變，我為什麼要去讓別的人來改變這個現狀呢？"],["徐委員巧芯：好，那我是支持部長您的這個堅持。但最後還要一點時間問一下，就是我們一直很關心憲指部211的案子。先前已經兩次讓部長在這個地方，在我們委員會裡面談過了，您的態度我們都很認同，可是我們整個同仁在這個運作的過程當中，似乎是趕不太上的，所以已經過了好一陣子了，211的自傷案，你們也都提出，在這裡說要有檢討的報告，要來做，可是我們3月22號發函憲指部，跟4月12號發函國防部，都沒有回覆正式的公文。請問可不可以簡短的說明一下，當時承諾的211案？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，任何一件不幸的事情發生都讓大家遺憾，但我們依序追的話，一定從內部、外部通通來考量。記得上回我講一句話，有些人他的個性比較抗壓力不一樣的，後來委員就引用這句話，好像講得太殘酷了吧！我沒有要推這個責任，事情一發生，內部就要檢討，管理方面有沒有問題，工作分配是不是得當，有沒有管教不當的問題；外部他的感情方面、家庭方面、債務方面，這我們都要納入。檢討出來以後，我們不能公布，因為公布以後變成我們的獨斷了，會造成其他後遺症。既然檢調介入了，檢調的報告一定要為主，假如委員要這個報告，我們拿不出來，就是檢調還沒給我們，要是給我們檢調的就拿給委員看，這樣才公允。"],["徐委員巧芯：行政調查跟檢調的調查是兩件事情。"],["邱部長國正：不不不，但是我們知道行政調查的一發出去，人家就會立即偏頗。"],["徐委員巧芯：我舉一個例子來說，當初你們在質詢的時候，你們明明沒有去看班表，卻直接講已經確認過了，他就是站二歇六，這個不需要檢討嗎？這個部分的檢討報告跟檢察官有什麼關係？"],["邱部長國正：這個檢討報告不難，這檢討報告我們該要……"],["徐委員巧芯：那為什麼什麼都沒有呢？我們詢問了老半天也都沒有呢？所以我講的是，整個211的事件是非常多嘛！因為我時間不夠，所以不用給我答復，但是你們應該要提供書面的資料。"],["邱部長國正：委員又叫我不要答復，那結果就是我不理，好像我們在耍無賴一樣。"],["徐委員巧芯：不，我是說因為我的時間不夠，我要尊重主席，我時間夠的話你們可以講啊！主席如果同意的話可以讓他們講，我只是尊重主席的時間，好不好？那你們做答復，什麼時候……"],["主席：簡單回復一下。"],["徐委員巧芯：簡單好不好，後面還有很多人在排。"],["呂參謀長正芳：是，委員好。跟委員報告，因為當初我們做的這些行政調查，我們在3月26日移送給檢調的時候，都把我們當初所有的行政調查的報告，一併都移送給檢調。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以你們行政調查報告的部分，也不能提供給委員會？"],["呂參謀長正芳：因為我們都有提供給檢調的部分就沒辦法……"],["徐委員巧芯：行政調查的部分也都不能提供？"],["呂參謀長正芳：是，因為我們當初就是怕會有失公允，所以我們在行政調查的部分也一併給檢察官。"],["徐委員巧芯：最後我講一下，這就是我們現在的一個怪象，我告訴大家，剴剴案在衛環委員會，也是檢調在調查的案子，衛福部有沒有提供檢討報告給所有委員參考？是有的。所以這裡很多包含我們的主席都是非常資深的立法委員了，你剛剛的說法我是完全不能認同的，不然就是你說只有在國防委員會有這個狀況，其他的委員會裡面，行政調查跟檢調的調查是分開的，好不好，所以我想這個部分就到這裡，但是希望你們知道我的意思。"],["主席：其實行政調查部分也是大家現在在訴求的，到時候我覺得我們可能也要釐清清楚，就這個部分，謝謝！","接下來請陳冠廷委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-13","speakers":["馬文君","林楚茵","黃仁","陳永康","羅美玲","王定宇","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","李柏毅","洪孟楷","羅智強","林憶君","王鴻薇","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢（含秘密會議）","agenda_id":"1133001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":3.8109687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11.927843750000001,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.68721875,"end":38.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":39.97409375,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":42.80909375,"end":43.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":43.97346875,"end":44.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.27721875,"end":44.462843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":44.462843750000005,"end":44.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":44.47971875,"end":59.768468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.251593750000005,"end":46.673468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":46.673468750000005,"end":46.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.61659375000001,"end":119.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.45096875,"end":152.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.73284375000001,"end":125.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":131.99346875,"end":132.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":134.76096875000002,"end":135.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.73284375,"end":198.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":198.17721875,"end":205.53471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.53471875000002,"end":246.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.85534375,"end":205.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":247.06409375,"end":251.90721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":251.97471875000002,"end":255.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":255.87284375000002,"end":263.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":261.59346875,"end":261.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.79596875000004,"end":261.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":263.61846875000003,"end":275.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":275.65034375,"end":291.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.92034375000003,"end":275.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.12471875,"end":291.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.46221875000003,"end":291.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.76596875,"end":324.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.67221875,"end":327.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.30034375,"end":332.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":332.56971875000005,"end":332.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.58659375,"end":332.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.80596875000003,"end":341.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.45909375,"end":338.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.53034375000004,"end":341.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.81721875,"end":341.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.83409375,"end":341.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.05346875000004,"end":358.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":358.75971875000005,"end":375.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.92346875000004,"end":364.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":369.74534375,"end":370.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.86284375,"end":374.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.53346875,"end":381.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":382.19909375000003,"end":383.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":383.78534375000004,"end":384.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.29159375,"end":384.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":384.34221875000003,"end":384.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.91596875000005,"end":390.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.53534375000004,"end":393.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.99471875,"end":398.80409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.63534375,"end":406.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.76909375,"end":408.89534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.99659375000005,"end":409.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.30846875000003,"end":423.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.15471875000003,"end":423.62721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.62721875000005,"end":430.79909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.77846875,"end":427.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.79534375000003,"end":431.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.72721875,"end":438.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.86534375,"end":439.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.96659375,"end":472.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.75534375,"end":440.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.22284375000004,"end":489.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.81096875000003,"end":503.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.36159375000005,"end":503.74971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":503.86784375,"end":506.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":506.50034375,"end":514.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.27971875,"end":518.1272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":518.1272187500001,"end":522.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":523.10534375,"end":527.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":527.4253437500001,"end":530.2434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":530.31096875,"end":533.3484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.5047187499999,"end":545.3972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":534.07409375,"end":534.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":545.3972187500001,"end":553.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.66596875,"end":570.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":572.2622187500001,"end":576.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.54846875,"end":585.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":584.31096875,"end":585.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":585.55971875,"end":615.8503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.04846875,"end":590.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.9253437500001,"end":595.4484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.6984687500001,"end":638.3615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":638.6653437500001,"end":645.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.31846875,"end":644.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.48721875,"end":653.2959687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.78534375,"end":656.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":656.82284375,"end":659.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.3034687500001,"end":659.6072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":659.6072187500001,"end":674.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.3190937500001,"end":667.4709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":675.14909375,"end":682.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":682.57409375,"end":695.9897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":696.5634687500001,"end":696.5803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":696.5803437500001,"end":696.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":696.63096875,"end":696.7490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":696.7490937500002,"end":707.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":708.2409687500001,"end":709.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":710.28284375,"end":713.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.35409375,"end":761.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":762.29159375,"end":779.9765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":766.37534375,"end":766.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":774.2053437500001,"end":774.3234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":779.7065937500001,"end":780.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":780.01034375,"end":786.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":786.6084687500002,"end":801.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":802.1840937500001,"end":816.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":816.9834687500002,"end":819.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":817.5065937500001,"end":821.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":821.35409375,"end":826.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":826.28159375,"end":839.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":840.3047187500001,"end":842.8190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":842.44784375,"end":844.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":844.1015937500001,"end":845.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":844.3884687500001,"end":846.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":846.6497187500001,"end":847.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":846.73409375,"end":855.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":850.22721875,"end":850.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":854.54721875,"end":858.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":856.42034375,"end":865.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":866.37659375,"end":870.0890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":870.5109687500001,"end":872.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":873.1772187500001,"end":880.0790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":880.3997187500001,"end":882.2222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":882.00284375,"end":885.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":886.1203437500001,"end":889.0903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":889.0903437500001,"end":891.3684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":889.2422187500001,"end":889.3772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":890.8959687500001,"end":898.4053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":898.05096875,"end":901.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":902.4722187500001,"end":903.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":904.4297187500001,"end":910.0828437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":911.23034375,"end":931.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":931.88534375,"end":936.6103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":936.84659375,"end":946.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":947.39346875,"end":947.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":948.1865937500002,"end":948.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":948.92909375,"end":948.96284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.593,"end":2.243,"text":"謝謝主席 那我們有請部長請邱部長"},{"start":11.963,"end":35.474,"text":"徐委員好部長好我們知道現在國軍正在如火如荼進行這個漢光演習的準備那在第二階段的電腦輔助指揮所演習時間是在4月19號到26號的八天起夜那我想要先請問部長我們在全國軍旅級以上需要參演的單位他們在19到26號的假單我們都簽合過了嗎"},{"start":47.761,"end":65.476,"text":"這次我們只針對旅籍以上的指揮所來實施一個演練那其他的營籍以下的他都是維持正常的一個運作包含他的休假跟外産事務都不管這那我們來看一下因為就是有蠻多人他們來提出我們看一下那張圖片好不好"},{"start":67.017,"end":88.924,"text":"這個是他們在內部裡面在談到就是說所謂的請假的部分那入勤部的參謀長昨天晚上跟我們回報要禮拜四18號下班前才要去批示這個假單因為現在演習時間已經快到了那你可以看他這個對話內容是問說有人要請假嘛問說是不是19到26號他說對"},{"start":90.945,"end":119.126,"text":"然後對方回答他說NO他就說可是如果我們是有合理事故加證明的情況之下對方回答他說我們沒有然後還是呢因為你們連價單都不給送那對方回答說對我想要請問一下像這樣子的對話他的情況是什麼那我們現在的這一些如果我們的軍人弟兄如果他真的有要事要請假的話那我們現在的狀態是連價單都不能去遞送的情形嗎"},{"start":120.509,"end":144.972,"text":"委員好 我是陸行部參謀長向您說明一下那因為這一次的話是8天7夜那我們也非常清楚說跟往常的一個這個休假方式有改變因為我預望的話是5天4夜那這一次的話從這個禮拜五到這個下禮拜五從未審慎評估之後根本同仁講清楚說明白那基本上他們有相關的事故的部分完成相關的佐證資料都已經奉核可以批示沒有問題"},{"start":152.935,"end":172.203,"text":"我希望你們可以去調查一下你們在陸軍司令部裡面的情況因為或許你的認知是如此但是我們在執行下去的時候我們可以看到很清楚這個裡面的對話相關人我們都查核過確認有此事只是因為今天要保護人家所以我們孤影其名但是我是確認過情況的"},{"start":173.504,"end":197.86,"text":"那所以既然你也說到了如果今天我們的國軍弟兄即便在這個情況下他要請假他有合理的理由你們不應該連假單都不給送假單送了之後你要合或不合他的事他的所謂的合理事故合不合理你們可以做評斷但是我覺得不應該對我們的國軍弟兄連假單送出去都不行這個部分可不可以回去研究一下"},{"start":198.2,"end":198.64,"text":"我們想要問一下邱部長"},{"start":216.057,"end":218.758,"text":"我們這個目前去年9月的時候您談過潛艦國造的進度我們都是按照節點在管制的那請問當時您談這件事情的理由是什麼為什麼當時呢你談到說我們在後續的潛艦預算編列"},{"start":232.463,"end":232.583,"text":"：徐巧芯"},{"start":247.113,"end":262.908,"text":"每個工作推動有它的一個階段性,這個就叫節點管制。重要節點我們把它管控了以後,有什麼好處呢?它可能準備不夠周圍的,我們已經看出來,你要準備不夠周圍,這個節點打不到,我們要督促它。"},{"start":263.989,"end":291.181,"text":"至於這個後續建的一個建造我當初也有講過沒有錯一定要經過我們測評以後第一艘人艦沒有問題才能夠投注於後面但目前測評正在做正在做那我們就講也得要預化如果做成的後面就要建案但是這個不是一觸可乘的總目標不會變國建國造國機國造但是我們節點管控是有必要的"},{"start":291.981,"end":316.307,"text":"我是非常同意剛剛邱部長您講到的節點管制的部分因為我們大家對於國艦國造都有期待我們也希望一艘一艘的能夠依次依序能夠做好辦好所以我也覺得目前當時沒有去編列後續的預算是因為我們前面的測試還沒有完成這樣子的一個處理方式跟措施是正確的"},{"start":316.887,"end":324.057,"text":"所以我想要問一下在接下來的這個海昆號我們有預計什麼時候要去做HAT跟SAT的測試了嗎?我們就針對可以說的部分說就好了"},{"start":328.765,"end":357.104,"text":"報告委員現在海關號目前正在執行HAT測試那HAT測試要全部完成之後我們接續才會執行出海試測所以說現在並沒有一個很明確的時間表好那沒有很明確的時間表的情況之下我們又配合剛剛談到的整個節點管制那後續所謂編列第二艘這個國艦國造的部分那會不會跟著這個騎乘那有所往後延期的情況請教部長"},{"start":358.865,"end":361.708,"text":"請問一下我們在SAT測試完成之前會去編列第二艘的潛艦預算嗎?"},{"start":384.954,"end":408.399,"text":"報告委員我們國軍的建軍主要是計劃等預算那如果我們等到第一條船交艦之後才開始準備這個計劃那我們可能要花相當的時間那我請問一下那我們在第一艘的SAT測試做完之前會編列第三艘的潛艦計劃嗎的預算嗎我們不要講第二艘第三艘要編嗎"},{"start":411.417,"end":431.221,"text":"其實我們現在正在洽談中因為預算到底要多少那些報紙上面寫的很多的數字都不一樣不管是委員從哪邊拿到的資料都不一樣那代表這個計劃預算兵的部分是相當複雜的我們談的是一個那我多講30秒來請說那我們剛剛在機密會議裡面已經說過影響到裝備價款的部分有很多因素"},{"start":439.683,"end":465.462,"text":"這個部分我還沒有問啦所以這個部分這個我沒有要你講機密的部分我們就是按照因為我現在問的是一個邏輯如果我們當談的是所謂的節點管制它必要性我們也同意部長的這個說法那大家也覺得你今天有做完海上測試之後確認沒問題你要開始啟動下一艘船艦那我們也覺得這樣依序依次的做法是合理的我們都來支持"},{"start":466.142,"end":483.584,"text":"如果您剛談到的是說怕第一艘完成之後才編第二艘中間會有一個空窗期那可是怎麼會又編到第三艘去呢就是說你第一艘海上測試完之後到了第二艘這個中間有個空窗期所以你先編一些業務的費用這個我們也能夠理解"},{"start":484.085,"end":507.762,"text":"但是如果一次的把第二艘不要講第三艘了直接編到第八艘直接把第二艘編到第八艘全部兩千多億以上一次編進去這個有符合我們剛剛所說的包含節點管制的邏輯嗎?在邏輯上面來說是不是有一些相違背的地方呢?部長我跟委員報告這剛才前面有委員給我們指導"},{"start":508.964,"end":522.285,"text":"這預算編列都還沒有定逐年編和專案編這也在研擬當中對我們問的是這個邏輯上面您覺得怎麼樣做比較正確邏輯就台灣人講的很清楚計劃等預算我計劃都出來了"},{"start":523.388,"end":544.071,"text":"對,我哪怕講到最後編滿那個計畫都出來了,但哪一天開始這個第一日,那就要看我們那個前面進展的部分了。計畫出來了,那它配著預算要通過嗎?這是兩件不同的事。我們並不反對說要把整個計畫都準備好,但是預算要編列然後先通過嗎?這個是問題啊。"},{"start":545.472,"end":552.793,"text":"所以這個方向上的邏輯今天講的比較清楚了那再來我想要問一下陳建仁院長前幾天突然要求軍中要推行轉型正義的教育請問一下邱部長您覺得目前在國軍裡面哪一個部分要轉型正義了"},{"start":572.301,"end":600.704,"text":"我還沒有了解軍中哪邊叫轉型正義他叫你們一個月以內要籌設軍中轉型正義的外部專家諮詢小組要朝向軍中都有在跟轉型正義的工作人員有相關部隊的會或軍中的會他們都找我們去開我們在開當中我們也會表達我們也會表達當然我們軍中有很多做法"},{"start":601.505,"end":601.665,"text":"所以我們現在軍中"},{"start":617.21,"end":617.871,"text":"那是哪一個部分呢?"},{"start":638.717,"end":656.239,"text":"那假如說他把這個這個項目講得很明確的話我們就針對這個項目明確的好那我請問一下如果因為陳院長他也沒有講得很清楚如果是要求軍中要去除所有的蔣介石的同項部長這樣子的轉型正義您同意嗎"},{"start":656.9,"end":666.888,"text":"我已經講過了 這個上面有討論過當初的規範很清楚在公開場合他要怎麼處理我沒有意見但銀區是我們的財產銀區裡面所有東西都是國軍的財產我財產我只要沒有違法"},{"start":675.214,"end":695.695,"text":"那為什麼要去辯呢?所以我一貫的堅持啊。對,多年前講說要我們來做的話,光這一點我有我的堅持。對,但我絕對要跟你講得很清楚。不要認為講我們這個行政團隊在那邊攪局。講這個界定不清楚。第一個,你想想,軍中是個開放團體,那我就問各位能不能接受。"},{"start":696.917,"end":697.538,"text":"徐巧芯"},{"start":710.345,"end":711.226,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":729.156,"end":743.286,"text":"但是您的態度我們都很認同可是我們整個同仁在這個運作的過程當中似乎是感不太上的所以已經過了好一陣子了211的自傷案你們也都提出在這裡說要"},{"start":744.827,"end":758.264,"text":"有檢討的報告要來做可是我們3月22號發函縣指部跟4月12號發函國防部都沒有回覆正式的公文請問可不可以簡短的說明一下當時承諾的211案"},{"start":762.332,"end":785.704,"text":"我跟委員報告,任何一件不幸的事情發生,都大家遺憾。但我們就一去追的話,一定從內部外部通通來考量。我記得上回委員我講一句話,有一些人他的個性比較,抗壓力不一樣的。但後來委員就引用這句話,好像在講太殘酷了吧。我沒有要推這個責任。事情一發生,"},{"start":787.024,"end":801.138,"text":"內部要檢討管理方面有問題打邊方面工作分配是否得到有管教不當的問題外部他的感情方面家庭方面債務方面這我們就要納入檢討出來以後我們不能公佈"},{"start":802.279,"end":814.056,"text":"我們不能公布,因為公布以後被我們的獨斷了,會造成其他後遺症。既然檢調介入了,檢調的報告依那個為主。假如委員要這個報告,我們拿不出來,所以檢調還沒給我們。要給我們,我們檢調了。"},{"start":817.088,"end":820.79,"text":"我舉一個例子來說當初你們在質詢的時候你們明明沒有去看班表卻直接講說已經確認過了他就是戰二邪六這個不需要檢討嗎?這個部分的檢討報告跟檢察官有什麼關係?"},{"start":841.322,"end":865.432,"text":"那為什麼什麼都沒有呢?我們詢問了老半天也都沒有呢?所以我講的是整個211的事件是非常多嘛因為我時間不夠所以不用給我答覆但是你們應該要提供書面的資料我是說因為我時間不夠我要尊重主席我時間夠的話你們可以講啊那個主席如果同意的話可以讓他們講或者是尊重主席的時間好不好那你們做答覆"},{"start":866.454,"end":868.435,"text":"所以你們行政調查報告的部分也不能提供給委員會?"},{"start":886.238,"end":909.817,"text":"因為我們都有提供給檢調部份就沒辦法行政調查的部份也都不能提供當初就是怕會有失公允所以我們在行政調查部份那也一併有來做啊給檢查官那最後我講一下這就是我們現在的一個怪象我告訴大家喔凱凱案在未還委員會他也是檢調在調查的案子衛福部有沒有提供"},{"start":911.897,"end":930.385,"text":"簡討報告給所有委員參考是有的所以這裡的很多包括我們的主席都是非常資深的立法委員了你剛剛的說法我是完全不能認同的不然就是你說只有在國防委員會有這個狀況其他的委員會裡面行政調查跟檢調的調查它是分開的"},{"start":931.92,"end":932.06,"text":"徐巧芯"}]}},{"id":"151289","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151289","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627cc4d69565d9f4efbcf744a9f110b3b1fc5dab72e655c1c940e17d421418d2e265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:59:31 - 12:07:08","影片長度":"00:07:37","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":457,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:07:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:59:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":806,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時59分）主席好，請黃主委，謝謝。"],["主席：有請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員午安。"],["陳委員玉珍：中午好。我們今天問的融資公司，融資公司長期以來處於三不管的地帶，租賃公會有訂定BNPL（buy now，pay later先享受後付款）自律規範，及對車輛貸款分期及債權讓與交易業務的自律規範，這個部分後續是由哪個單位來負責監督管理？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個部分的這些規範，包括今天金管會提供的報告……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，你有提供了一個報告。"],["黃主任委員天牧：金管會要負責。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個自律規範提出了，在4月3日網站實施的貸款分期讓與的規範，這個部分後面是由金管會來負責，是嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是的。我們提出的報告，我們負責。"],["陳委員玉珍：我不是說你們提出報告，我是說他們有提出自律規範，後面落實的執行單位是金管會。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們會要求，而且這些公司都是上市公司，從交易所那邊也可以做內控規章。"],["陳委員玉珍：主要的公司是上市公司，當然還有一些小的租賃公司。"],["黃主任委員天牧：以重要性來看，原則上先抓大的。"],["陳委員玉珍：對。後續也是由你們來做。出問題的這些公司對於這些規範，都已經有同意簽署了，是嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該都有簽，4月3日就通過了。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，後面都有嘛。那我想請問，現在對於融資公司，大家擔心的是，市場上有一些單位，法人也好，或是個人也好，在跟銀行借貸方面可能遇到一些困難，不容易借到，或者在徵信上有一些問題，不能貸款，現在這種新的借貸方式，造成了一些問題，當然我覺得它也是有一些創新，但是也造成了一些困擾，尤其後續的部分，包括中間的利息，用巧立名目的方式，用帳管費、對保費的名義，變相收利息，那這個有符合資訊揭露的規定嗎？業者會自律嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：關於這部分，委員，您講的非常重要。這部分剛才也有委員垂詢，我們會再進一步要求業者把這些部分都記錄，或是歸納成一個項目，不可以巧立名目去收利息。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們剛剛已經提出要承擔，說要由金管會來負責融資公司相關業務的監管，那是不是……"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有，我說今天的報告講的這些自律規範或是內控這些。"],["陳委員玉珍：你現在的意思就是，融資公司的主管機關就是金管會，如果你……"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有，我剛剛講的是今天提的報告內容。"],["陳委員玉珍：只是報告內容說的要求自律的部分，那融資公司的後續呢？有沒有專法送給我們審議？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，跟委員報告，剛才消保處鍾處長有報告過，行政院當時開會，有責成他們去研究各國的法制，加上召委今天召開這個會議，未來會去做一些討論。"],["陳委員玉珍：哪個單位呢？下去是哪個單位主管呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：不是，現在還沒有決定，但是消保處……"],["陳委員玉珍：經濟部今天有來嘛？請經濟部陳次長來說明。陳次長，那這個部分後續是由你們來當主管單位嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，融資這個行為，我們現在行政院內部正在討論，第一個，我們要納管的範圍有多大，這個要政策確定，要行政院來確定，確定之後再看管理的機關是誰，要先檢視這個機關有多少政策工具，那這個專法裡面要把這個政策工具給哪一個機關來管。那目前來講，我們行政部門還在彼此討論中。"],["陳委員玉珍：還沒有討論就對了，是不是？"],["陳次長正祺：在討論中。"],["陳委員玉珍：在討論中，但是還沒有初步討論由哪個機關來做主管單位就對了？"],["陳次長正祺：現在行政院的做法是先研讀各國的立法體例，他山之石，可以攻錯，我們先瞭解國外怎麼做，後來金管會、經濟部、財政部等幾個相關機關都會一起參與討論。"],["陳委員玉珍：有預計大概多久的時間行政院那邊的專法可以出來？"],["陳次長正祺：速度方面，恐怕請院方面來……"],["陳委員玉珍：請哪個單位？哪個單位現在在草擬這個法案？"],["陳次長正祺：在院的部分，我們內部只能說儘快來做。"],["陳委員玉珍：只能說儘快，那你們還是不知道什麼時候。"],["陳次長正祺：目前沒有辦法確定。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以如果中間發生什麼問題，現在只能靠著金管會的一些監理機制，但是後續比較嚴重的問題其實是跟警政署有相關，因為後續包括債權的追索，有時候會涉及一些法律上的問題，希望這個部分要儘快，政府都要換新了，你們動作也要加快。謝謝。","接下來要請問財政部。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：部長好。部長，你知道有個東西叫「地域加給」嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：知道。"],["陳委員玉珍：知道嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是針對服務的地方，尤其是一些地理環境、交通狀況特殊的地方，給一些相關的補助。像我們金門地區，比如說，公教人員都有一些離島加給、地域加給，實施很久了，或者是在國營事業也有相關的規定。財政部轄下有臺銀、土銀、中小企銀、兆豐銀行等四家銀行，在金門設有分行，所以是不是可以請求你，針對這些泛公股銀行的金門分行，對於地域加給也要有一致性的規範？才不會好像有點不平等。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。跟委員報告，本國銀行在金門地區有7間分行，但是我們公股行庫就有5間，其中臺灣銀行1間、土銀2間，兆豐1間，還有臺灣企銀1間，總共5間。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，總共4家，有5家分行。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，有5家分行。現在外島地域加給的部分，臺銀、土銀跟兆豐都有，不管是臺灣派去的或是金門當地的居民，在這些分行做事，都有地域加給，但唯一就是臺灣企銀的部分，如果是本島派去那邊的話，是有地域加給，但是在金門本島的子弟們在金門分行做事，是沒有地域加給。只有臺灣企銀這個部分是這樣。"],["陳委員玉珍：研究一下都是泛公股的銀行，土銀、臺銀跟兆豐都有，那相關的都統一一下制度，不要說不同的銀行有不同的制度，都是泛公股銀行。"],["莊部長翠雲：泛公股銀行因為涉及到他們公司內部有關薪資給與的部分，那他們有他們一定的程序，我想這個部分我們可以跟臺企銀講，請他們去做這方面的研究看看，研議看看。"],["陳委員玉珍：包括元大，元大是民間的，是不是也跟他們督促一下？"],["莊部長翠雲：因為元大是民營的，財政部是沒有辦法。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，我知道你們沒有，但是可以來幫忙督促一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有問題嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，是，是，謝謝，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員的質詢。","請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-8","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","王世堅","顏寬恒","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","羅明才","林楚茵","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","吳春城","陳亭妃","王定宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就\n「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":2.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.42284375,"end":4.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.856593750000002,"end":11.539718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.94471875,"end":22.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.37346875,"end":27.520343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.58784375,"end":39.923468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.52659375,"end":42.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.42096875,"end":48.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.032218750000006,"end":47.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.73221875,"end":60.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.22409375,"end":62.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.77221875,"end":64.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.71284375,"end":68.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.99909375,"end":75.17534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.08346875000001,"end":69.69096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.16721875,"end":73.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.92221875,"end":79.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.11596875000001,"end":77.28471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.78659375000001,"end":79.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.25909375,"end":79.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.30971875,"end":88.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.94221875000001,"end":81.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.82721875,"end":97.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.41221875000001,"end":112.04721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.36784375,"end":113.75159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.03846875,"end":133.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.74409375000002,"end":146.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.31221875,"end":144.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.45534375,"end":158.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.03159375,"end":159.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.09471875,"end":167.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.12846875,"end":159.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.08096875,"end":169.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.67971875,"end":171.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.00409375,"end":179.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.76659375,"end":184.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.01471875000001,"end":192.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.13596875000002,"end":194.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.68409375000002,"end":198.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.19846875000002,"end":201.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":204.01596875,"end":208.89284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.22659375,"end":206.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.83784375000002,"end":237.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.42846875,"end":243.06471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.06471875000003,"end":258.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":258.65721875,"end":263.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.32721875000004,"end":268.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":268.36034375,"end":269.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.77784375000005,"end":271.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.08534375,"end":277.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":277.54034375000003,"end":280.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.64534375,"end":282.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":282.48471875,"end":304.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":304.92846875000004,"end":309.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":316.13346875,"end":316.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.15034375000005,"end":316.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":316.47096875,"end":340.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.52159375,"end":316.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.47159375,"end":339.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.85534375000003,"end":360.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":360.90284375000005,"end":363.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.97409375,"end":366.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.07909375,"end":408.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.71971875,"end":372.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.57534375,"end":378.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":379.81971875000005,"end":380.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":380.88284375,"end":381.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.59284375000004,"end":401.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":407.47784375000003,"end":407.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":408.92909375000005,"end":424.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.94596875,"end":409.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.98721875,"end":415.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.12096875000003,"end":437.54909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":426.51284375,"end":427.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.84534375000004,"end":431.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":431.86221875,"end":432.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":435.50721875000005,"end":435.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":436.97534375000004,"end":445.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.41721875,"end":450.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":447.10034375000004,"end":449.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":450.13784375,"end":453.96846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.96846875000006,"end":456.29721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":2.013,"text":"請那個主委啊,黃主委,謝謝有請黃主委"},{"start":9.268,"end":30.877,"text":"委員午安中午好我們今天問的這個融資公司融資公司長期以來在處於三不管的地帶那這個主任公會我想請問主任公會有訂一個BNP2先享受後付款我們現在討論這個Buy Now Pay Later這個自律規範及對這個車輛貸款分期及債權讓以交易業務的自律規範那"},{"start":37.6,"end":64.152,"text":"這個後續是哪個單位要來負責監督管理呢?這個部分的這些規範包括今天金管會提供的報告金管會要負責所以你們以前這個所以這個等於是他們這個資歷規範提出了這個4月3號的網站實施的這些貸款、分期讓與這些規範或者是這個這個部分後面是由金管會來負責是嗎?是的,我們提出的報告我們負責"},{"start":64.912,"end":71.994,"text":"主要的公司是上市公司當然還有一些小的這種主要性原則先抓這個大的那後續也是由你們來這個那這個中共提的這些規範這些公司都已經有同意簽署了是嗎"},{"start":88.88,"end":113.11,"text":"這應該都有簽過,都有通過,4月3號就通過了對,那後面都有嘛,那我想請問那現在融資公司大家擔心的是當然融資是一個當然是一個因為市場上有時候有一些單位或是法人也好或是個人也好在在跟這個銀行借貸方面可能遇到一些困難不容易那或者一些徵信上沒有那個那現在這種新的這種這種方式這種"},{"start":114.15,"end":115.091,"text":"財政部長翠雲、經濟部長翠雲、經濟部列席備詢。"},{"start":134.935,"end":145.827,"text":"這部分委員您講的非常重要這部分也是剛才也有委員垂詢我們會再進一步的要求他要把這些部分都介入或是要歸納成一個項目不可以巧立名目去收"},{"start":146.719,"end":171.334,"text":"那這個部分因為這個你們剛已經提出要承擔所有金管會來負責這個融資這個公司的相關的這個業務的監管那是不是因為我說今天的報告講的這些自律規範或是內政這些是因為後面的內容那後面那這個融資你現在意思是那下去融資公司的主管機關就是我們金管會啊如果你們沒有我剛才講的是今天提的報告的內容只是報告的內容要求那些自律的部分啦"},{"start":172.074,"end":197.773,"text":"那這個融資公司那要請問是要後續呢有沒有這個專法來送我們審議啊有跟委員報告其實剛才消保處中處長也報告過行政院當時開會有責成他們去研究各國的法據我想這部分加上召委今天召開這個會議未來會去做一些討論哪個單位呢下去是哪個單位會主管呢不是現在還沒有決定還沒有決定那經濟部今天有來嗎經濟部次長陳次長"},{"start":204.059,"end":208.694,"text":"那這個部分後續是要由你們來主要來當主管單位嗎?公司嘛?"},{"start":210.415,"end":235.488,"text":"報委員融資這個行為我們現在行政院內部正在討論未來要第一個要先我們要納管的範圍有多大這個要政策確定是要行政院來確定確定之後再看管理的機關是誰要先檢視這個機關有多少政策工具那這個專法裡面要把這個政策工具給哪一個機關來管那目前來講我們行政部門還在彼此在討論還沒有討論就對了在討論中"},{"start":237.469,"end":263.19,"text":"在討論中,但是還沒有初步討論說有哪個機關來作為他的這個主管單位就對了現在行政院的做法是先研讀各國的立法體力我們從他山智慈可以供錯法先了解國外怎麼做那麼我們後來這個金管會、經濟部、財政部我們幾個機關相關機關都會來一起來參與討論那有預計大概多久的時間這個相關的你們的行政院那邊的專法可以出來嗎"},{"start":264.363,"end":266.106,"text":"請哪個單位?哪個單位現在在炒你這個法案?"},{"start":273.58,"end":300.78,"text":"我們這個院的部分我們內部只能說儘快來作業所以你們能說儘快但你們還是不知道什麼時候目前沒有辦法那所以如果說這中間發生什麼問題現在只能靠著金管會的一些監理的這個機制但是這個後續其實比較嚴重上跟那個警政署也會有相關的關係因為後續包括這些債權的這些追索有時候涉及一些比較上法律上比較那個那希望這東西要儘快"},{"start":301.661,"end":303.686,"text":"政府都要喚新了,你們動作要加快。"},{"start":316.175,"end":340.202,"text":"委員好部長好,你知道有一個東西叫地域加級嗎?呃,知道。知道齁,就是針對你服務的地方啊,地理環境交通狀況啊,一些特殊的地方給一些相關的這個補助啦。是。在我們金門地區齁,比如說,不管在這個,呃,公教人員的部分齁,公教人員都有一些離島加級啊、地域加級啊,這個實施很久了。或者是在這個國營事業也有相關的這個規定啦齁。是。那我們"},{"start":341.202,"end":362.803,"text":"財政部這個轄下有這個台銀、土銀還有中華慶、兆豐銀行私家在金門有設有分行那是不是在這個可以請求你在這個金門的這個在金門的分行部分針對這些飯工股的銀行的部分是不是對於那個第1家級也要有一個一致性的這個規範才不會說好像有點不平等這樣子"},{"start":363.664,"end":370.209,"text":"是跟委員報告我們本國銀行在金門地區有7間分行但是我們供股行庫就有5間那其中臺灣銀行1間、土銀2間、兆豐1間還有臺灣企銀1間對總共4家有5家分行那現在有外島所謂的地域加急的部分那臺銀、土銀跟兆豐都有那都有不管他是臺灣派去的或是金門當地的"},{"start":393.507,"end":408.592,"text":"臺灣"},{"start":408.592,"end":409.213,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":428.888,"end":452.677,"text":"給予的部分那也他們有他們一定的一個程序啦那我想這個部分我們可以跟台企銀講請他們去做這方面的研究看看好嗎那還有包括這個元大是元大有沒有民間的是不是也跟他們跟他們這樣督促一下這個因為民營的話我想財政部是沒有我知道你們沒有但是可以來幫忙督促一下沒有問題嗎好謝謝部長是是謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151288","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151288","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627145e09ee81831d14f65493343f37da33c5dab72e655c1c94f5e92c6d24b32f115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:59:38 - 12:06:15","影片長度":"00:06:37","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員黃健豪等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條及第二百八十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（七）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（九）、（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":397,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:06:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:59:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1004,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時59分）謝謝主席。本席有請法務部蔡次長。"],["主席：麻煩次長。"],["蔡次長碧仲：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：次長好。最近社會上發生黃子佼案，扯出名為創意私房論壇的事件，衛福部已經在4月10號依兒童及少年性剝削防制條例還有性侵害犯罪防治法發文給數發部封網了。但是該論壇上有偷拍、誘拍，還有各種非自願外流的性影像，甚至還會附上被拍攝者的個資，導致被拍攝者遭到論壇會員騷擾，讓被害人宛如活在人間煉獄。本席首先想請教次長，針對這個論壇的經營者，以及偷拍影片還洩漏個資的犯罪者涉及未成年的部分，是否已經依據兒少剝削條例第三十八條或我們今天審查的刑法第二百八十六條開始偵查？本席的問題有兩個，包括是依據哪一個法規，以及是否已開始偵辦？"],["蔡次長碧仲：是。關於黃子佼案緩起訴這部分，針對緩起訴，依法我們要依職權送高檢署再……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我不是指他耶！"],["蔡次長碧仲：我知道。關於黃子佼案中的創意私房這個論壇，我跟委員報告，其實這個創意……"],["徐委員欣瑩：應該依據哪一條啊？本席時間有限，到底是要依據兒少剝削條例第三十八條還是刑法第二百八十六條？"],["蔡次長碧仲：以我們目前有的，是依照刑法第二百二十七條、第三百十五條之一、之二、修正前的兒少剝削條例第三十六條、第三十八條、第四十條，還有個資保護法第四十一條、個資保護法第六條、第十九條和第二十條。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那沒有辦法用……針對那個論壇的創辦人和偷拍人，因為被害人是兒少，所以本席要強調的是，偷拍影片、而且洩漏被害人個資會導致被害人遭到該論壇會員騷擾、羞辱，這點對被害人的傷害其實並不亞於把人關在實體空間施加凌虐。"],["蔡次長碧仲：沒有錯。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以不能用刑法第二百八十六條第二項偵辦嗎？剛剛次長所說的那些條文，刑責好像比較輕耶！"],["蔡次長碧仲：對，但是能不能用凌虐或以他法足以妨害其身心的健全發展處理要看具體個案，如果合適這個案件當然最好。這項條文在今天條文還沒修正之前就非常重了，所以這個案件……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以沒修正之前就非常重了……"],["蔡次長碧仲：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那法務部不能用這一條嗎？"],["蔡次長碧仲：這部分要看具體案件，以目前具體案件來看，判出來的依據似乎沒有依照這項條文。但是對於整個具體案件，我們要回去檢討看看這部分有沒有適用的可能性。"],["徐委員欣瑩：很多青少年都這麼痛苦、都是受害人，中央單位卻還要再探討、再探討？"],["蔡次長碧仲：不是，剛剛也有委員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這樣其實臺灣保護青少年的環境真的太差。"],["蔡次長碧仲：委員的高見，我們一定非常敬佩與尊重，如果我們提出來卻沒有做到的話，當然要檢討，不能沒有做到就算了，仍要精進啊！我只是說假使個案有這個情況，我們當然要檢討，若不檢討，就會繼續錯啊！","至於適用部分，之前都適用修正前的兒少剝削法，我們在111年也已經修正相關的數位性別暴力法規。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是刑責都很輕啊！"],["蔡次長碧仲：刑責不輕喔！根據112年公布的修正後刑法第二十八條之一，不管是被害人的保護或防治都有，還有一些法規對兒少性剝削都提高刑責。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為時間到了，本席最後要請問現在進行的情況到底如何。這麼多被害人，而且可能……"],["蔡次長碧仲：關於偵結情形，因為時間上的關係，我也特別趕快跟委員報告。臺北地檢在111年就先後追加起訴陳宗駿跟林清安等，總共有11個人。判決的刑度方面，除了陳宗駿是被判有期徒刑應執行17年以外，另外的部分是從6個月到6年10個月不等。"],["徐委員欣瑩：那是什麼案？本席現在是針對……"],["蔡次長碧仲：就是這個案件啊！創意私房這個案件。"],["徐委員欣瑩：怎麼會111年就開始有？"],["蔡次長碧仲：對啊！他們不只是從111年開始，而是從101年開始就申租網域空間，用會員制經營。"],["徐委員欣瑩：奇怪！那這種情況為什麼到現在、113年還一直發生？"],["蔡次長碧仲：是不斷發生。一般大概都會有一種指摘，就是怎麼101年就開始發生、為什麼發生黃子佼等案件、或是我們今天為什麼啟動這項修法、為什麼發生個案，其實很多事情不是沒有在發生，而是沒有查緝到。"],["徐委員欣瑩：針對這個網站，沒有辦法把它封掉嗎？"],["蔡次長碧仲：若要封網站，我們可以依照個案情節跟事證向法院聲請扣押網域，在這個案件中，事實上我們也有聲請，後來扣押獲准。但是扣押數個月以後，這個網站就更換網域名稱重啟。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝，我就不耽誤時間，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來我們請楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員。","王育敏委員、王育敏委員、王育敏委員。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","游顥委員、游顥委員、游顥委員。","鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員。","邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員。","謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員。","翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員。","陳超明委員、陳超明委員、陳超明委員。","以上委員都不在場。","所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速交個別委員及本會。","委員翁曉玲所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-13","speakers":["吳宗憲","傅崐萁","廖偉翔","王育敏","徐欣瑩","陳超明","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","黃國昌","翁曉玲","黃健豪"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員徐巧芯等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員廖偉翔等19人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等20\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八\n十六條及第二百八十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員柯志恩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)\n委員陳超明等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.98784375,"end":10.223468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.501593750000001,"end":12.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.51846875,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.96909375,"end":18.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.49221875,"end":19.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.54284375,"end":18.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.11659375,"end":19.926593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.926593750000002,"end":73.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.758468750000006,"end":42.977843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.97221875,"end":52.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.174093750000004,"end":56.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.274718750000005,"end":60.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.97034375000001,"end":64.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.34971875000001,"end":66.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.69034375000001,"end":91.39221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.72409375000001,"end":74.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.39221875000001,"end":91.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.56096875,"end":91.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.67471875000001,"end":97.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.20971875000001,"end":101.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.63534375,"end":102.36096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.15409375,"end":105.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.03159375000001,"end":104.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.02721875,"end":105.14534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.14534375000001,"end":114.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.19596875,"end":106.61346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.18659375,"end":111.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.94971875,"end":116.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.06346875000001,"end":126.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.53971875,"end":119.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.30284375000001,"end":125.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.17159375000001,"end":139.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.61659375000002,"end":148.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.10471875000002,"end":183.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.11721875,"end":150.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.04846875,"end":158.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.33909375000002,"end":161.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.47784375,"end":164.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.71409375000002,"end":164.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.33784375000002,"end":169.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.18471875,"end":177.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.74909375000001,"end":190.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.70221875000001,"end":187.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.17846875,"end":205.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.33221875,"end":209.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.95221875000001,"end":207.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.04471875000002,"end":222.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.96659375000002,"end":237.56346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.47221875000002,"end":227.86034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.74971875000003,"end":235.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.73659375000003,"end":245.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.71409375000002,"end":249.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.25784375,"end":252.31221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.58221875,"end":254.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.50596875000002,"end":268.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.11971875,"end":271.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.83659375,"end":280.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.86471875,"end":288.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.18846875,"end":295.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.47846875000005,"end":320.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.38596875,"end":323.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.07346875,"end":324.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.45284375,"end":326.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.03471875,"end":337.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.17659375,"end":343.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.32346875,"end":355.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.35284375000003,"end":343.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.24534375,"end":361.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.89846875,"end":364.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.02471875000003,"end":364.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.05846875000003,"end":364.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.15971875,"end":366.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.53909375,"end":389.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.43409375000005,"end":393.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.76721875000004,"end":392.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.57284375,"end":393.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.62346875000003,"end":393.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.97784375000003,"end":394.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.97346875000005,"end":395.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.96909375,"end":396.96471875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.998,"end":8.582,"text":"條文刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案"},{"start":17.987,"end":42.44,"text":"委員好市長好最近我們社會上有發現黃子嬌案那扯出了有一個叫做什麼創意私房論壇的事情那衛福部已經在4月10號依兒童及少年性剝削防治條例還有性侵害犯罪防治法發文給訴發部封網了"},{"start":46.163,"end":59.339,"text":"但該論壇上有偷拍右拍還有各種非自願外流的性影像甚至還會附上被拍攝者的個資導致被拍攝者被論壇會員在騷擾讓被害人宛如活在人間煉獄"},{"start":64.145,"end":90.702,"text":"首先本席想請教次長對這個論壇的經營者還有偷拍影片還洩露個資的犯罪者請問涉及未成年的部分是否已經有依據兒少剝削條例第38條或是我們今天審查的刑法286條開始偵查本席的問題兩個是依據哪一個然後是否有開始在偵辦是"},{"start":93.252,"end":101.952,"text":"有關黃子嬌案的緩解訴,這部分緩解訴我們依法要送高檢署。"},{"start":103.308,"end":104.288,"text":"條文修正草案案案案 。"},{"start":133.721,"end":138.926,"text":"還有三百一十五條之一之二還有修正前的兒少剝削條例第36條"},{"start":141.006,"end":163.74,"text":"還有三十八條還有四十條還有各支保護法四十一條各支保護法第六條還有第十九條那沒有辦法用請問那個論壇創辦人和偷拍人因為被害人是兒少的部分本席要強調的是偷拍影片而且還洩露被害人的個資"},{"start":165.702,"end":180.877,"text":"這個會導致被害人被論壇會員騷擾羞辱這個對被害人的傷害其實並不亞於把人關在實體空間施加凌虐所以不能用刑法第286條第二項"},{"start":184.901,"end":204.26,"text":"來偵辦嗎?因為剛剛次長所說的那個刑責好像比較輕對,所以你能不能用凌虐或以他法主義妨礙他身心的健全發展這個看具體的個案,如果能夠來合適這個案件當然是最好這個在今天還沒修正之前就非常重了"},{"start":204.56,"end":222.684,"text":"對,所以沒修正之前就非常重,那法務部不能用這一條嗎?沒有,以這個部分要具體案件,因為現在具體案件所判出來的依據它似乎是沒有依照這個,但是這個整個具體的案件我們要回去檢討看看這個部分有沒有適用的可能性"},{"start":223.044,"end":225.767,"text":"三（委員黃健豪等19人擬具 «中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":243.348,"end":248.23,"text":"三）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12屆第13屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第20屆第20屆第21屆第21屆第22屆第21屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22"},{"start":269.341,"end":278.232,"text":"但是那個刑責都很輕啊那刑責不輕現在在112年的公佈修正之後的刑法28之一"},{"start":280.896,"end":282.838,"text":"三）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具〈中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案〉"},{"start":300.498,"end":320.016,"text":"台北地檢在一百一十一年就先後起訴追加陳宗俊跟林青安這個總共有十一個人那麼這個判的刑度除了陳宗俊他是被判有期徒刑應執行十七年以外那另外的部分就從六個月到六年十個月不等"},{"start":320.656,"end":320.776,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":336.604,"end":351.569,"text":"三）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人"},{"start":363.433,"end":386.224,"text":"這個網站沒有辦法把它封掉嗎沒有 這個封網站也有那個我們可以依照個案情節跟事證來向法院申請扣押網域那這個案件事實上我們也有去申請那麼後來跟他扣押後准但是扣押數個月以後這個網站就更換這個網域名稱他還重啟這樣子"},{"start":390.975,"end":392.697,"text":"條文刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"151287","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151287","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f0162706c753df5a353ad1b57f63d1b53b7532c5dab72e655c1c9453e23ddd97f11bf65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:58:28 - 12:04:05","影片長度":"00:05:37","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-12"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":337,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:04:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:58:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":996,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時58分）謝謝召委，有請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。我們在環境統計的查詢是有看到執行機關資源回收量的數字，無論是在橡膠、紙類或金屬等等的各個品項，我們其實都回收了非常多的數量。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["張委員雅琳：剛剛部長一直說要從源頭減塑，在計畫中也提到要減少一次性的產品、循環採購、補助地方源頭減量，這是我們目前的一些做法。事實上，這個子計畫不會出現在預算書及決算書中，公開資訊也只有公共政策網路參與平臺上提供的無落後情事，所以我並不了解計畫的經費是如何分配的，執行率又是如何，這個部分是有資料嗎？如果有資料的話，是不是可以在這個禮拜提供給我？"],["薛部長富盛：好，我們提供更詳細的計畫給張委員參考。"],["張委員雅琳：雖然是說無落後情事，但是我自己看了一下，這個主計畫的執行率只有76.47%，並不是非常高，卻又說是無落後情事，到底原因是什麼？有分析過嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我們再提供詳細的數字。"],["張委員雅琳：部長現在是不清楚嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：這個是預算經費而已。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["薛部長富盛：這是經費面。"],["張委員雅琳：對，經費面執行到76%，一定也是有原因，你們了解這個原因是什麼嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：因為我們是有補助地方的，所以有時候因為採購的關係，可能在時間上會落後，但是我們會把整年執行完成。"],["張委員雅琳：聽起來是時間差的關係，所以目前的執行率是比這個更高，是嗎？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：最後我們會完成，只是在檢討的時候，可能他們在採購或委辦時會慢一點。"],["張委員雅琳：比較詳細的資料什麼時候可以提供呢？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：我們在會後儘快提供。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝你。剛才我們也提到在這個計畫中有一個循環經濟的部分，在今年9月就要禁用一次性的塑膠飲料杯，其實就是源頭減量的一個概念。目前在學校或行政機關的部分都有免洗餐具或包裝水等等的作業指引，但是我想問，我們每天在外面買咖啡、飲料所產生的塑膠杯數量也是非常非常的多，尤其臺灣民眾購買手搖茶飲的比例非常高，所以我們是不是有更好的誘因機制去鼓勵廠商及店家使用呢？如果沒有誘因，一直維持在之前的機制，其實是沒辦法真正做到源頭減量，是否能請部長說明一下？"],["薛部長富盛：報告張委員，事實上這些循環杯的使用，我們與包括便利超商等等的機構都有合作，而且也都有給予一些補助，所以才會使用循環杯可以減少5元。但是有一個挑戰點是大家對於使用循環杯的清潔衛生有所顧慮，所以無法如我們預期的那麼順利，當然帶自己的杯子是最方便的。"],["張委員雅琳：但是像立法院附近的便利商店就沒有提供循環杯，所以好像並不是全面的與所有的便利商店合作，其實這是一個非常大的量，剛剛你說的清潔機制是另外一件事情，也必須要去溝通與宣傳，但是我們在量的布點上是不是可以有更多呢？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：報告委員，我們對於管制的對象是依法請他們按照比例，包括每年要逐漸增加門市的數量及增加循環的比例，像今年就是要達到13%。"],["張委員雅琳：15%？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：10%，今年是10%。"],["張委員雅琳：10%，我們的目標可以再積極一點嗎？如果我們要源頭減量的話，這個數字可能還是有點太低了，因為只有10%而已，好不好？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：好。"],["張委員雅琳：請部長協助訂定一個更積極的計畫，好嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：OK，把目標拉高一點就對了。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我們可以再積極一點。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["張委員雅琳：最後一個，現在有很多政策計畫都沒有公開檔案，既然有在做事，我們就好好地把這些資訊提供出來，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：我回去了解一下。"],["張委員雅琳：這個部分是不是也了解一下，讓更多人也讓我們能夠取得這些資訊，好不好？謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝張委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請洪申翰委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","陳瑩","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃秀芳","張雅琳","洪申翰","蔡易餘","劉建國","陳冠廷","楊曜","蘇清泉"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事\n業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.738468750000003,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.025343750000001,"end":9.126593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.180968750000002,"end":14.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.982218750000001,"end":15.825968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.15034375,"end":20.399093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.43284375,"end":31.300343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.418468750000002,"end":40.547843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.56034375,"end":41.914718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.02846875,"end":44.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.002843750000004,"end":46.032218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.049093750000004,"end":46.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.875968750000006,"end":48.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.93471875,"end":49.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.930343750000006,"end":50.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.85846875,"end":86.17784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.87471875000001,"end":55.195343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.68409375,"end":86.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.70096875,"end":88.89471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.91159375000001,"end":92.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.05034375000001,"end":98.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.86346875000001,"end":110.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.33846875,"end":112.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.65471875,"end":113.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.02596875,"end":117.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.65846875000001,"end":117.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.88596875,"end":120.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.45534375000001,"end":121.14284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.14284375000001,"end":121.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.24409375,"end":125.73284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.04534375,"end":124.07909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.07909375000001,"end":124.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.19721875,"end":124.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.21784375000001,"end":136.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.93784375,"end":142.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.13096875000002,"end":151.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.05784375000002,"end":156.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.10784375,"end":159.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.33534375000002,"end":163.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.10659375,"end":181.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.60596875000002,"end":213.60096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.52846875,"end":192.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.86284375000002,"end":212.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.60096875000002,"end":213.63471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.71909375,"end":219.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.13159375,"end":223.21971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.57409375,"end":229.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.05409375000002,"end":230.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.21846875000003,"end":232.19721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.48409375000003,"end":234.20534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.30659375000002,"end":237.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.58034375000003,"end":238.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.62659375,"end":240.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.19596875000002,"end":241.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.76534375000003,"end":245.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.93346875,"end":246.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.24971875000003,"end":248.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.88659375,"end":253.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.00409375,"end":253.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.13909375000003,"end":269.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.13034375,"end":255.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.30596875000003,"end":266.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.36034375,"end":268.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.81596875,"end":268.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.77784375000005,"end":269.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.81159375000004,"end":276.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.91284375000004,"end":270.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.03096875,"end":270.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.17346875000004,"end":276.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.19034375,"end":276.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.20721875000004,"end":276.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.25784375,"end":277.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.54034375000003,"end":277.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.14784375,"end":282.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.19346875,"end":290.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.10784375000003,"end":293.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.36096875000004,"end":294.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.50409375000004,"end":302.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.12721875,"end":302.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.21159375,"end":304.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.54034375000003,"end":308.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.94909375000003,"end":308.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.79284375000003,"end":310.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.66596875000005,"end":323.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.21659375,"end":330.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.26284375,"end":326.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.23721875,"end":328.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.99596875000003,"end":333.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.63284375,"end":334.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.72971875,"end":336.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.97409375,"end":337.37909375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.774,"end":15.497,"text":"謝謝張偉,我們有請部長好,請薛部長"},{"start":19.189,"end":45.12,"text":"好,張委員好部長好我想就是說因為我們現在在講這個我們現在在那個環境統計的查詢面是有看到執行機關的一個資源回收量的數字那其實我們不管是在各個品項橡膠和紙類什麼的金屬等等的品項其實我們都回收了非常多的一個數量是好抱歉因為簡報可能還沒有出來那我大概就好謝謝"},{"start":46.901,"end":47.542,"text":"目前的作法"},{"start":64.036,"end":85.861,"text":"但是我事實上我自己目前在這個紙計畫因為不會出現在預算書和決算書上面那公開資訊也只有這個公共政策網路參與平台上面提供的這個無落後情勢所以其實我並不了解計畫的經費是怎麼分配的資訊率是怎麼樣那這部分現在是有資料嗎如果有資料的話是不是可以這個禮拜提供給我"},{"start":87.201,"end":111.736,"text":"我們來提供更詳細的計畫給張委員參考因為我自己會覺得說這個無落後情勢我們是這樣子說但是事實上我自己看了一下這個主計畫的執行率只有76.47%所以我想要知道說我們這個執行率其實並沒有非常高那我們剛剛有講無落後情勢這到底是什麼這個原因是什麼有分析過嗎"},{"start":113.098,"end":116.363,"text":"對,經費面我們執行到76%一定也是有原因嘛,那我們了解這原因是什麼嗎?"},{"start":127.244,"end":128.224,"text":"所以目前我們的執行率是比這個更高,是嗎?"},{"start":143.589,"end":158.107,"text":"最後我們會完成但只是說因為其中在檢討的時候有時候他們會在採購或說是在這個要去委辦的時候會慢一點對所以我所以OK好所以這大概是比較詳細的資料是什麼時候會提供呢我們會那個會後盡快就提供"},{"start":158.567,"end":180.956,"text":"接下來就是說因為我們剛剛還有講到這個計畫裡面其實有一個循環經濟的部分我們其實在今年9月就已經要禁用一次性的塑膠飲料杯那其實是源頭減量的一個概念但是我們現在也有在學校做一些公共行政機關也有做一些相關的像免洗餐具、包裝水等等也是有一些作業的指引"},{"start":181.716,"end":210.976,"text":"但是我想問其實我們在外面每天買的這些咖啡杯或是飲料杯其實數量也是非常非常的大尤其台灣國人在使用這個手搖茶的這個比例其實非常的高那我們剛剛講的是學校還有就是消費者那我們有沒有更好的一個誘因機制來去鼓勵我們的廠商跟店家來去做使用呢因為我自己會覺得如果我們沒有這些誘因其實就一直維持在之前那樣子的機制其實是沒有辦法去真正做到源頭減雷"},{"start":214.118,"end":240.956,"text":"給張委員報告,事實上這些行環杯的使用我們跟包括這個便利超商等機構事實上都有這個一個合作那我們也給一些補助所以他們也才會說你使用行環杯可以減少五塊錢但是我想這個比較現在挑戰的一點當然就是說大家對行環杯使用這個的一個清潔跟"},{"start":241.836,"end":244.557,"text":"當然講說後面這乾淨的機制是另外一件事情也必須要去做一些溝通跟"},{"start":271.272,"end":289.41,"text":"但是我們在這個布點、量的布點上面是不是可以有更多呢?我是有依法。根本報告我們在那個這些管制的對象是依法請他們按照比例包括每年要逐漸增加這個門市的事務量還有那個增加循環的比例那像今年是要達到13%"},{"start":291.192,"end":294.633,"text":"OK 把目標拉高一點就對"},{"start":310.74,"end":310.76,"text":"鄭振賢"}]}},{"id":"151286","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151286","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627417faf99e902cbacb57f63d1b53b7532c5dab72e655c1c949cc3a2a7c74431455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:45:50 - 11:58:25","影片長度":"00:12:35","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-12"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":755,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:58:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:45:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":949,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時45分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，幾乎每次提到垃圾減量，雖然這幾年來我們的回收量是有增加，但是我們的垃圾量也是逐年一直上升，當然是有很多的面向。今天我想要請教，我們的資源回收量在這十年中好像也做得不錯，但家戶垃圾也是一樣在逐年上升當中，尤其是在疫情期間，真的是大爆發。請問，我們希望源頭減量，到底在這幾年當中源頭減量的部分是不是真的有落實？或者你們是做到什麼樣的源頭減量？看到這個，我覺得環境部應該可以做得更多，是不是先請部長回應一下？"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝黃委員的關心。根據數據顯示，過去幾年的垃圾量是增加的，但是其中有兩個因素，第一個因素，事實上我們在107年針對一般垃圾改變了定義，把事業、企業員工消費那一塊的垃圾也歸類為一般，這是第一個；第二個因素，一般臨時性產生的垃圾，譬如有一些大型的活動，或是因為天災、水災而造成的環境垃圾，這些也都歸類為一般垃圾。因此過去這些年來，我們會看到垃圾量持續增加，但是剛剛黃委員也特別提到，回收量也是持續上升，不過我們的重點當然還是在源頭減量。源頭減量契合今天的主題，特別是垃圾中塑膠的這一塊，真的是有稍微氾濫了一點。我們的民眾現在都會到其他國家旅遊，譬如歐洲的國家，事實上，他們一直都有在控制塑膠的使用量，所以歐盟是走在最前面的。今年聯合國也要訂定一個全球塑膠公約，減少塑膠的使用量。臺灣正好又是這些塑膠的進口、生產最大宗的地方，我們的民眾已經非常習慣使用，因為塑膠取得太便宜又很方便，無論是到傳統市場、到夜市、到攤販、到早餐店，因為這一塊並不是早期第一階段我們納管的對象，但是它們產生的塑膠垃圾量反而是最大的。過去我也一直告訴同仁，我們真的要去做整體的分析，從源頭的部分切斷或追蹤，以前我們是到限制使用的階段而已，還沒有到禁用，原本我們的規劃是2025擴大，幾乎全部都要限用，2030才禁用，但是我個人認為這個應該要再往前。"],["黃委員秀芳：現在時間點是往後移？"],["薛部長富盛：沒有、沒有，我們的目標大概是這樣訂，但是我們的做法、對象要擴大，要趕快擴大。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，幾年前說要禁用塑膠吸管，所以在前幾年好像非常的落實，也有許多廠商研發了紙吸管、甘蔗吸管、稻殼吸管等等，各式各樣的吸管很多。"],["薛部長富盛：還有不鏽鋼的、玻璃的，很多。"],["黃委員秀芳：後來大家覺得政府好像沒有繼續推動，所以大家在這方面就不敢再投資下去，讓我覺得環境部對這個似乎也沒有特別重視。誠如剛剛部長講的，一方面我們未來要如何達到限塑、減塑，我覺得如果環境部重視的話，其實地方或業者的眼睛也很大啦！他們就會知道政府未來的趨勢是如此，但是如果你們不重視的話，大家就是以最方便取得的樣態來使用，以吸管為例，最簡單取得的就是塑膠吸管。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：垃圾量逐年攀升，雖然回收量也是逐年增加，但是我認為源頭的部分更重要，就像剛剛部長講的，我們也希望環境部針對這個部分是不是要再努力，因為環境要好真的也是……"],["薛部長富盛：絕對還有努力的空間。"],["黃委員秀芳：對，真的是有很大的努力空間。此外，我們也看到另一個回收的品項，紙容器的部分，當然紙容器要回收其實也不是那麼容易，像便當盒或一些餐盒可能沾了很多油污在上面，有人可能最後就一整包直接投進垃圾桶，也都沒有分類回收。請問，像這樣的紙容器，環境部到底有沒有訂定什麼樣的標準？當然我們會宣導紙容器回收前至少要先清洗，但有些在清洗後還是油膩膩的，像是裝臭臭鍋的紙容器，洗完之後整個油漬還是在表面上，也許有的家庭就直接丟到垃圾桶了。請問，各式各樣的紙容器沾染了油污之後，到底要清洗得多乾淨才方便回收？"],["薛部長富盛：細節的部分，我待會再請賴署長說明紙容器回收前應該要如何處理。事實上紙容器的製造商很多都是中小企業，甚至沒有真正的工廠登記，所以它在我們資源回收基金這一塊是漏掉的，所以我們每年回收基金收到的也很少。但是我們發現進口的白紙板、相關做助焊劑的反而量很多，感覺上是有一個漏洞，所以我們現在積極要做的就是源頭管理，從進口的這一方進行，才能夠做源頭管理，我們以前是針對製造與輸入業者，進口這一塊反而就被落掉，所以我們沒辦法全部掌控。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，剛剛你說希望從源頭管制嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：臺灣一年有超過10萬噸的紙容器沒有列管，當然你們的回收基金收到的就很少嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：之前說所有的紙容器上都有一個QR Code，但是這個QR Code可能會被亂貼，也許並不是這家合法登記的工廠生產的，卻被沒有登記的生產工廠拿來印上去，可是你們也抓不到啊！所以我一再的講，你們是不是可以從源頭，也就是進口的紙板進來之後，看要如何去課回收基金，我覺得應該從源頭去管制。"],["薛部長富盛：好。向黃委員報告進度，我們過去兩個月已經與21家業者討論如何進行源頭管控的這一塊，基本上蠻多業者也支持我們的想法，所以資源循環署應該在最近就會有草案出來了，我們希望是朝黃委員所講的源頭管控的方向來做。"],["黃委員秀芳：因為紙容器的部分也是不好回收，而且你們回收基金收的成效也不好，如果源頭的量進來之後，你們應該可以很容易……"],["薛部長富盛：對，我們就可以知道它流到哪裡了。"],["黃委員秀芳：對。另外一種是直接從國外進口，前陣子不是有從中國直接進口的紙容器，當它直接銷售進來，而你們沒有做好源頭管控的話，其實你們也收不到錢啊！"],["薛部長富盛：沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果你們可以從源頭就收回收基金的話，無論是對業者而言或是對你們而言，可以從源頭就能知道他們到底進了多少的量。部長，我希望能夠儘速從源頭去課該收的回收基金，這樣應該是可以好好的處理這個區塊，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝黃委員的建議。"],["黃委員秀芳：剛剛有委員特別提到農膜的部分，因為之前我也特別提過……"],["薛部長富盛：有。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們彰化也算是農業大縣，很多農民都會使用農膜，可能使用過一次、二次就無法再繼續用，但是回收真的是不容易，有的地方就是堆了一堆，所以我們要請環境部鼓勵回收業者，儘量將這些農膜回收回來，不要讓大家就直接丟棄在田的旁邊，堆成了一堆……"],["薛部長富盛：沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：或是收到堆置場，其實我覺得這樣都不好，是不是要怎麼樣去回收呢？"],["薛部長富盛：報告委員，事實上，關於這一塊我們是與農業部一起合作，環境部這邊已經補助幾個示範場域，如何進行農膜回收。一般的農膜上面有很多泥土，很髒，直接回收是不行的……"],["黃委員秀芳：對，需要清洗。"],["薛部長富盛：業者已經開發了一種工具，回收時可以順便用水清洗將泥土弄掉，接下來回收的那一塊就可以直接做，現在已經有在做了。"],["黃委員秀芳：你們的示範場域成效很好嗎？還不錯？"],["薛部長富盛：我覺得還不錯，這個是可以來推廣的。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果還不錯的話，你們就應該在所有的農業縣市推廣，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["黃委員秀芳：要不然那些農膜堆了一堆，真的是還蠻麻煩的事情，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，我們來做。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝黃委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請張雅琳委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","陳瑩","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃秀芳","張雅琳","洪申翰","蔡易餘","劉建國","陳冠廷","楊曜","蘇清泉"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事\n業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.69659375,"end":8.384093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.99159375,"end":9.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.345343750000001,"end":59.51534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.751593750000005,"end":75.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.85034375000001,"end":83.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.95471875000001,"end":96.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.94471875,"end":93.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.74159375,"end":98.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.58096875000001,"end":101.71971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.95596875000001,"end":103.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.57596875,"end":109.71846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.00596875000001,"end":106.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.97159375000001,"end":111.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.23721875000001,"end":115.50659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.65846875000001,"end":117.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.49784375,"end":119.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.54846875000001,"end":118.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.53971875,"end":122.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.18471875,"end":125.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.66534375,"end":127.42034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.75784375,"end":144.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.77409375000002,"end":132.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.15721875,"end":137.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.44721875000002,"end":146.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.47221875,"end":150.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.23096875000002,"end":154.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.39909375000002,"end":162.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.87471875,"end":170.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.82784375,"end":166.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.17721875,"end":173.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.86034375,"end":179.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.17659375000002,"end":175.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.38721875000002,"end":177.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.20534375,"end":190.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.81659375,"end":184.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.73534375,"end":195.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.52846875,"end":191.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.08471875,"end":197.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.36284375000002,"end":206.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.46784375000001,"end":201.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.34471875000003,"end":212.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.21284375000002,"end":221.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.05534375000002,"end":223.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.48971875,"end":224.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.67096875000001,"end":238.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.10534375,"end":227.06721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.40034375000002,"end":228.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.59346875000003,"end":235.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.70284375000003,"end":237.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.86721875,"end":238.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.96409375000002,"end":241.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.99784375000002,"end":241.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.42784375000002,"end":249.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.40971875000002,"end":283.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.58846875,"end":268.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.25034375,"end":270.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.89159375,"end":271.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.35534375000003,"end":275.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.78534375000004,"end":277.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.48034375000003,"end":314.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.22221875,"end":333.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.75346875,"end":318.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.38534375,"end":324.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.60409375,"end":329.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.41346875000005,"end":349.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.07534375,"end":337.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.69784375,"end":351.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.35159375,"end":355.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.57034375,"end":418.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.14409375,"end":356.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.13034375,"end":363.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.48034375000003,"end":366.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.27784375000005,"end":444.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.10909375000006,"end":450.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.39096875,"end":451.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.28096875000006,"end":455.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.11159375000005,"end":458.64284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.01409375000003,"end":461.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.63409375000003,"end":461.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.79846875000004,"end":483.88784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.73034375000003,"end":465.81471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.86034375,"end":471.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.77971875000003,"end":474.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.97221875,"end":486.48659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.73971875,"end":492.98346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.32096875,"end":498.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.87284375,"end":506.21346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.96909375,"end":504.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.90971875,"end":535.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.4209687499999,"end":528.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.3859687500001,"end":559.1672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.53846875,"end":563.6897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.1115937500001,"end":574.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.34346875,"end":565.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.9340937500001,"end":566.5247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.8872187500001,"end":569.8997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.47721875,"end":574.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.70909375,"end":582.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.8015937499999,"end":577.3584687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.5222187500001,"end":583.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.58971875,"end":600.1059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.0522187500001,"end":593.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.4309687500001,"end":601.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.3547187500001,"end":640.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.18346875,"end":617.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.6515937500001,"end":619.1240937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.34346875,"end":619.3772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.75971875,"end":629.6540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.3115937499999,"end":634.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.2140937500001,"end":637.5178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.6059687500001,"end":648.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.25034375,"end":648.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.3684687500001,"end":649.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.24596875,"end":657.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.26284375,"end":649.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.12659375,"end":657.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.66659375,"end":681.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.0122187500001,"end":660.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.91596875,"end":689.4084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":689.76284375,"end":692.3615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.68221875,"end":700.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.1709687500002,"end":697.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":700.88346875,"end":729.7565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":705.35534375,"end":705.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.5234687500001,"end":709.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":714.36659375,"end":715.1597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":717.89346875,"end":718.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.0790937500001,"end":719.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":723.96846875,"end":724.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":724.74471875,"end":725.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.71471875,"end":732.3047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":730.93784375,"end":732.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.7434687500001,"end":741.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":732.76034375,"end":733.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":734.59971875,"end":736.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":736.5403437500001,"end":737.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":740.7422187500001,"end":741.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.82221875,"end":742.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":742.1765937499999,"end":744.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":745.6528437500001,"end":749.3484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":748.23471875,"end":748.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":748.96034375,"end":751.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":749.55096875,"end":752.4028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":753.4153437500001,"end":753.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":753.9722187500001,"end":754.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":755.30534375,"end":755.96346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.982,"end":9.613,"text":"謝謝主席 我們請部長好 請薛部長"},{"start":13.616,"end":41.286,"text":"黃秀芳好部長好部長我們幾乎每一次提到這個垃圾減量真的我們看到在這幾年當中整個我們雖然我們的回收量也有增加可是我們的垃圾量也是逐年一直在上升那當然有很多面向那我今天我想請教就是說我們的這個資源回收量在這10年當中其實我們也覺得這個好像回收量也"},{"start":41.826,"end":42.066,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":59.904,"end":74.65,"text":"好那源頭減量到底在這幾年當中我們這個源頭減量的這個部分是不是真的有去落實或者是你們是做到什麼樣的這個源頭減量因為我覺得看到這個"},{"start":75.951,"end":101.326,"text":"就覺得說應該環境部這邊應該可以做得更多是不是先請部長回應一下好 謝謝黃委員的關心當然這裡面過去這幾年垃圾量這個數據顯示是一直增加但是這裡面有兩個因素第一個因素是我們在107年事實上針對一般垃圾有改變定義它把事業這個企業"},{"start":103.707,"end":106.249,"text":"所以過去這些年來你會看到垃圾量持續增加"},{"start":132.406,"end":149.612,"text":"但是剛剛黃委員特別提到這個回收量事實上也持續在往上不過我們重點當然還是要在源頭減量那源頭減量就是契合今天的主題就是說我們特別是垃圾裡面在塑膠的這一塊真的是有一點點"},{"start":151.292,"end":151.512,"text":"臺灣正好"},{"start":180.262,"end":209.377,"text":"又是這些塑膠的進口啦生產是最大宗的地方那我們的民眾習慣上就是已經非常方便的因為塑膠取得太便宜了所以你到傳統市場到夜市到攤販到早餐店幾乎因為這一塊也的確不是早期第一階段我們納管的對象但是他們所產生的塑膠的垃圾市場反而是最大的"},{"start":209.877,"end":238.068,"text":"所以我在過去事實上也跟我們的同仁一直在講說我們真的要去做整體的分析那要從源頭的部分來切斷或者來追蹤那我們以前是到限制使用的階段而已還沒有到禁用我們原本的規劃是說2025擴大幾乎全部到限用2030才禁用但是我個人覺得這個應該要往前"},{"start":239.989,"end":257.769,"text":"我覺得有一些我們的目標大概是這樣定的但是我們的做法對象要擴大要趕快擴大部長我想請教就是說其實我們在幾年前我們說未來就是禁用那個塑膠吸管"},{"start":258.53,"end":258.69,"text":"是。是。"},{"start":283.856,"end":302.966,"text":"應該就變成說不敢再投資下去也不敢這樣子再去也讓我覺得好像這方面我們環境部也對這個好像也沒有特別重視所以剛剛部長講的就是說一方面我們要怎麼樣去達到未來是這個減塑然後限塑減塑那我覺得說這個應該也是要從"},{"start":310.33,"end":330.098,"text":"這個環境部這邊應該如果說你們有去重視的話其實地方或者是這些業者他們眼睛也很大他也知道說政府現在就是未來的趨勢是這樣子那如果說你們不重視的話其實大家就是用最方便最方便取得的那種樣態來取得就我舉一個最簡單就是說這個吸管"},{"start":333.659,"end":346.655,"text":"黃秀芳就是用最簡單取得的塑膠吸管所以我覺得說這個垃圾量逐年的這個攀升回收量當然也是逐年也是有增加可是我覺得說源頭的這個"},{"start":349.759,"end":374.871,"text":"更重要就是像這個部長剛剛講的我們也希望就是說這個環境部這邊應該針對這一部分是不是要再努力我覺得因為很多環境要好真的有很大的努力空間另外就是說我們也看到另外一個回收的這個品項就是那個紙容器的部分當然紙容器要回收其實也不是"},{"start":376.212,"end":377.993,"text":"環境部有沒有到底有沒有訂定一個什麼樣的一個這個標準就是說"},{"start":406.425,"end":430.779,"text":"我們要清洗當然一般我們會去做一些宣導也就是每一樣可以 脂溶器可以回收可能就是你至少要清洗過那有的清洗完之後整個還是感覺就油膩膩的就像裝那個臭臭鍋的這種脂溶器那洗完之後它還整個表面還是整個油漬還是在上面那有的這個一般的家庭可能看到這個"},{"start":431.619,"end":458.178,"text":"也許他就直接把它丟到垃圾桶去了我想請教就是說像這樣子各式各樣的紙容器它沾染一些什麼油污那到底要清洗得多乾淨那才方便回收事實上這個細節的部分我待會請我們代署長來談說紙容器回收之前要全處理要怎麼樣那我針對紙容器的這一塊事實上紙容器這一塊製造商很多都是從小這個"},{"start":460.259,"end":460.319,"text":"黃秀芳議員"},{"start":482.731,"end":505.999,"text":"所以這裡面就感覺上是有一個漏洞那所以我們現在積極要做的就是所謂沿途管理那從進口的這一方來進行才能夠做沿途管理我們以前是製造跟輸入業者那這一塊就反而這個辣掉這個進口所以我們沒有辦法全部來掌控"},{"start":506.519,"end":534.756,"text":"那個部長你剛剛講這個我就想希望就是說源頭去管制那當然我們看到台灣一年有超過10萬噸的這個紙容器是沒有列管那當然你們回收基金收到就很少那甚至之前有說我們所有的紙容器上面都會有一個QR code那這個QR code可能也會被亂貼也許這個不是這一家生產的可能那個這個"},{"start":536.457,"end":539.058,"text":"我一直講就是說你們是不是可以從源頭進口的紙板進來之後你們看要怎麼去課回收基金我覺得應該從源頭去管制"},{"start":559.982,"end":582.148,"text":"給黃委員報告進度,我們過去兩個月跟21家業者已經討論說如何來進行沿途管控的這一塊那基本上蠻多的業者也支持我們的一個想法所以我想這件事應該也會在最近大概就會那個草案就會出來了對我們希望就是黃委員講的沿途管控"},{"start":583.609,"end":601.225,"text":"我希望就是說這個紙容器的部分也是不好回收那當然你們講的這個回收基金的部分也這個成效收的這個成效也不好那當然就是說源頭如果源頭亮進來之後那你們應該可以很容易對我就可以知道它流到哪裡"},{"start":603.326,"end":624.153,"text":"對對對對那另外一種就是直接從國外我們前陣子不是看到從大陸那邊從中國那邊直接進口那個容器紙容器直接進來的那這種未來如果他直接銷進來如果說你沒有源頭管控的話其實你也收不到錢啊對不對所以如果你在源頭可以去去收這個回收基金的話我覺得應該對業者來講也好對你們來講也好就是說可以"},{"start":630.355,"end":646.62,"text":"從源頭就可以去知道他們到底進多少的量那我覺得這個部長我希望就是說能夠儘速把這個源頭克你們想要收的這個回收基金我覺得應該是可以好好的去處理這個區塊"},{"start":648.9,"end":671.01,"text":"謝謝黃委員建議剛剛有委員特別提到這個農磨的部分因為在之前我有特別提到不論是我們彰化也算是農業大縣這個鄉鎮很多他們就會用這個農磨用完之後可能用一次兩次就可能就沒辦法再用就回收可是回收真的不容易"},{"start":671.89,"end":687.022,"text":"所以有的地方是堆製就是堆一堆那我們當然就是說請環境部這邊要去鼓勵回收業者要怎麼去就是盡量盡量去把它回收回來不是讓他們有的就直接丟棄在他們的這個"},{"start":690.224,"end":715.797,"text":"這個田的這個旁邊那丟棄一堆或者是收到這個一個堆置場其實我覺得這樣都不好那是不是要怎麼樣去做回收給王委員報告這一塊事實上我們是跟農業部一起合作環境部這邊已經補助幾個示範場域就是說如何農模回收那一般的農模它上面很多蠻多那個泥土很髒回收事實上"},{"start":716.517,"end":717.978,"text":"所以你們現在釋放的場域這樣子好不好就是說"},{"start":732.831,"end":732.851,"text":"謝謝黃委員"}]}},{"id":"151285","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151285","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016270cc79e7bf9d603940915613d02a5e1dcc5dab72e655c1c9455ea099cd124814b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:49:22 - 12:02:20","影片長度":"00:12:58","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（4月17日及18日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":778,"end_time":"2024-04-17T12:02:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:49:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":634,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時49分）麻煩請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：部長，我們今天是討論教改議題，講到教改就很難不講到一個人──李遠哲，因為我看到李遠哲昨天有出來卸責，他說其實教改沒有問題，大家罵他是因為他2000年的時候支持民進黨，你認同他講的這句話嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：我不曉得李院長怎麼說。"],["葉委員元之：他就這樣說啊！你認同嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，委員，尊重他的說法啦！"],["葉委員元之：尊重，那你認同嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，尊重，我沒有什麼認同不認同。"],["葉委員元之：你不敢講？"],["潘部長文忠：因為這是……"],["葉委員元之：好，沒關係，你不敢講，我個人是非常不認同。他說廣設大學和他無關，而且他還拉台積電的董事長劉德音幫他背書，他說劉德音講說教改會的成果真的是非常了不起，這個是李遠哲講的。我們來看一下他在2014年說什麼，因為2014年當時是教改推動20年，今年是30年，那李遠哲說，這是他自己講的哦！教改沒有成功是因為社會沒有公平正義，你自己就已經講教改沒成功了嘛！你在10年前說教改沒成功，10年後你說教改很棒，連劉德音都稱讚我，那我不懂這10年來是不是不同的李遠哲，講話可以這樣子前後矛盾啊！","我們再來看廣設大學和他有沒有關係，我們特別去看了30年前教改會的報告，你可以看到它其中有一個建議就是要發展各具特色的高等學府，包括要有綜合型大學、研究型大學、技術學院、多元技術學院、科技大學、開放大學、社區學院，要容納所有接受不同型態高等教育的人口。那臺灣這麼小，大學這麼有限，你要符合這麼多的特色、這麼多的類型，你不廣設大學要怎麼達到？所以這明明就是當時他們的建議嘛！現在可以甩鍋說這個東西跟他無關。再來，當時他說要廣設大學發展各具特色的高等教育學府，我們來看有什麼配套措施，其中有一項是說要解除學費的限制，要讓各大學開放，隨便他們去收學費，我就問啊！經歷了這30年，我們有開放學費限制嗎？有放寬嗎？沒有！我們不僅是沒有放寬，而且現在是讓大家的學費幾乎一樣，因為現在有補助私校的學生嘛！所以30年來，他所謂的配套和他當時的主張根本背道而馳。","我們再來看，當時的教改會也有推動一個叫做多元入學方案，李遠哲說入學，這是他講的哦！2014年他說的哦！他說多元入學考試就是不公不義，因為它會造成更大的落差，因為鄉下的孩子會提早在多元入學的這個規則下面出局，這是他的原話，我一個字都沒有加。然後你去看他民國85年的報告，上面就寫著要推動多元入學制度，就是他講的哦！甚至於多元入學制度的配套是什麼呢？它的目標是什麼呢？它寫說長期，我們整個入學要以申請為主，要以申請為主哦！我們用紅色框起來，說要申請為主啊！那我問一下部長，30年了，我們現在是申請為主嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：是不是還有考試？有沒有學測？有沒有指考？有沒有？"],["潘部長文忠：不，申請入學為主，它講的是入學的幾個多元管道。"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！有沒有為主？為主就是百分之八、九十。"],["潘部長文忠：現在我們在進行的還有推甄、繁星入學。"],["葉委員元之：我知道啦！那是不是以這個為主？是不是一半以上都是這個？是不是嘛？"],["潘部長文忠：現在推甄加那個是超過50%了。"],["葉委員元之：超過百分之多少？"],["潘部長文忠：50。"],["葉委員元之：所以他講的為主是50哦？"],["潘部長文忠：不是啦！"],["葉委員元之：還是百分之八、九十？不要玩文字遊戲，這個又不是你寫的，你怕什麼嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：不是，因為委員一直在講李院長，我說……"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，部長，你也不用幫他圓了。"],["潘部長文忠：因為它是一個審議會。"],["葉委員元之：他又不是陳建仁，你不用幫他圓了啦！我現在要講的是，一個當初提出要教改的人，講話前後矛盾，然後當初的主張後來不敢承認，甚至於後來他的講法已經打臉了他當時的主張，這證明什麼事？這證明我們教改就是失敗了嘛！如果沒有失敗的話，教改會的召集人何必講話要這樣前後矛盾，我都不曉得哪一個是李遠哲了。現在被改得亂七八糟，雖然快要換部長，但是離現在還有一個多月，難道教育部不應該召開一個全國教育會議，把30年來這種亂七八糟的亂象重新做一個檢討嗎？不管是入學的升學制度，或者是廣設大學所造成的後遺症，那麼多的問題，難道真的不應該開一個會，讓大家重新訂一個未來的發展方向嗎？部長，你覺得呢？"],["潘部長文忠：教育一直都在演變，環境也一直在演變，適時地讓各界來參與，也把現況做一些討論，我覺得是有必要，因為教育跟著變化的速度非常快，產業的變化委員也知道，那個絕對不是我們當時所能想像，所以整個30年臺灣教育的變革其實是多面向。在碰到少子女化後，我們當時本來是希望讓孩子有更多接受高等教育的機會，以現在來看，確實是跟少子化有很大的衝突。"],["葉委員元之：部長，因為你都沒有針對我的問題回答，我剛剛給你十幾秒……"],["潘部長文忠：有啦！委員，我都……"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，我是覺得……"],["潘部長文忠：不是，教育是多面向，不是單一……"],["葉委員元之：如果要負責任的話，應該真的要召開一個全國會議，因為說實在的，教改30年，它當初訂的是一個長程的規劃，但是這個長程都沒有達到，所以我們應該再開一個會，再重新訂一個短程、中程、長程的規劃。如果說你每一年再做小幅的調整，削足適履，我覺得是達不到那個目標的，所以希望教育部真的要召集全國專家澈底地檢討一下。","也就是因為李遠哲他們廣設大學，造成現在有很多大學要退場了，對吧？在教育部給我們的報告裡面就寫了，100年是所有學校的高峰，有163間，112年只剩145間，所以大學退場其實是很快的。現在很多大學為了因應超高齡的社會，所以實際上是想要把原本的學校校地去轉做長照，對吧？應該是這樣，對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：應該說有些學校如果設有相關科系，它是可以增設。"],["葉委員元之：好，那問題就在這裡了，部長，問題就在這裡，其實很多學校是設在偏鄉，很多準備要退場的學校是在偏鄉，偏鄉就是長輩比較多，他們周邊長輩比較多，可是它可能沒有護理系，所以它就不符合教育部現在的規定，它就不能轉做長照。我現在是建議啦！因應超高齡的社會，其實可以研究一下，看法令怎麼鬆綁，不要說好像非要有護理系的學校才可以轉做長照，可不可以在一定的規定底下，讓他們也可以去做？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，應該不是唯一護理系，是……"],["葉委員元之：相關嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：相關科系。這個從學校來講，因為學校主體還是辦學，如果說它能夠增加這方面科系的規劃，而且也符合臺灣未來高齡社會的需求，教育部本身是會支持。"],["葉委員元之：第一個，它的門檻就會比較高。第二個，教育部要更積極去輔導，因為現在退場了非常多的學校。","第二，我要給教育部一個建議，如果這些學校未來退場之後做長照或做高齡教育，你們要去稽查，你們要去考核它的高齡教育到底做得怎麼樣。因為根據我個人之前的研究或者是我的觀察，很多高齡教育都會開一個課程，長輩來上，有吃東西了，認識一些人就結束，這個對於活躍老化一點幫助都沒有。你真正要做活躍老化，應該是一個班級，你有系統性的針對身體、心理、心靈，甚至人際、健康各方面的課程規劃，還有前測後測，有一個整體系統性的讓他們來上，這個才有幫助。如果只是來這邊老人共餐一下，然後上個課，一個禮拜來兩天，然後愛來不來的，其實這個效果非常有限，所以我們如果要做高齡教育，我們要認真做，要因應高齡社會的變化。","再來，我們現在對待長輩的態度也要跟以前不一樣，過去大家對待長輩，好像就是把長輩的業務放在衛生局或放在社會局，衛生局就是讓你健康好一點，不要用太多健保，社會局就是給你一點福利，現在對待長輩不是用這種態度，他們已經成為我們社會的主體了，我們要把長輩當作目的，而不是把他當作好像會連累我們社會的一群人。我們要以他們為主，所以你在做高齡教育的時候，也要實際去調查這些長輩想要學的課程是什麼，比如說退休之後學習到的東西也許可以補足他在童年時代的缺憾，就是說大家要去調查一下長輩的需求，所以我是覺得大學退場做長照我非常支持，希望教育部可以鬆綁，看是在法律上面還是怎麼樣，然後要去協助，要去幫助他們，要去精進這個高齡教育的課程，我覺得才是比較有幫助的，部長，你同意嘛？"],["潘部長文忠：是，剛剛委員提的一些觀點我覺得很好，但高齡教育跟高齡學習這個是有它的程度，吳春城委員的壯世代其實也在思考這個問題。"],["葉委員元之：吳委員在下一個，你可以回答他嘛！現在是我的質詢時間。"],["潘部長文忠：不是，我要跟委員報告……"],["葉委員元之：你拖時間也不是這樣拖吧！"],["潘部長文忠：不是啦！委員，你這個想法很棒啊！我還是要肯定委員提出這個，但是我剛才跟你講的是……"],["葉委員元之：主席，我要增加30秒，因為他扯到那個……"],["潘部長文忠：沒有啦！我肯定委員，委員還這麼說。"],["葉委員元之：不是，那等一下如果有很多委員在這邊，你每個名字唸一遍，我1分鐘就過去了。"],["潘部長文忠：不會啦！因為吳春城委員，我真的……他的壯世代……"],["葉委員元之：吳春城委員你等一下再稱讚他嘛！現在是我質詢嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：沒有啦！因為委員的觀念很棒啊！所以我才跟委員說……"],["葉委員元之：我的觀點很棒，你稱讚我就好，你講吳春城幹嘛？"],["潘部長文忠：我現在講的不就是這樣嗎？"],["葉委員元之：不是，你在拖時間啦！好啦！再來，講到課綱，大學現在面臨到一個問題，就是除了招生困難之外，還要留下學生，你知道嗎？留下學生就是他們要承接108課綱的問題，108課綱現在造成學生在學科方面基礎薄弱，所以有一些大學它必須要加強基礎課程，譬如說微積分，譬如說普化，他們要幫高中去上他們可能沒有上的部分，因為我時間也到了，我希望教育部去了解研究，去協助這些大學接住學生，不要讓那些108課綱學生一進到大學發現我跟不上，然後就離開了，這也是一個非常大的問題。","最後再30秒。我講一下，這是我一個陳情案，有代理教師跟我陳情，他說為什麼他們從別的縣市轉任到其他縣市，過去在別的縣市的代理教師年資不能夠銜接？部長，你知道這個問題嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：知道，這有一個釋憲案，還在討論。"],["葉委員元之：不是，這個釋憲案，我覺得這個問題根本就不需要釋憲嘛！你教育部不能把這個東西推給地方，因為什麼呢？因為每一個縣市政府也有約聘人員，約聘人員能不能夠累積他過去在別的地方的年資？都是可以，為什麼？因為這是中央統一訂定的規定啊！為什麼只有在代理教師這一塊，你就說我要去尊重地方自治，由各縣市自己決定？這個是教育部不願意，沒有肩膀嘛！把這個東西甩鍋給地方，你只要有肩膀，你直接訂說這個東西跟地方政府的約聘人員一樣，我們統一一定要銜接年資就結了嘛！為什麼要讓代理教師去釋憲？我真的覺得那個代理教師很可憐耶！代理教師不是教師嗎？不是軍公教人員嗎？他們沒有去學校上課嗎？為什麼他們還需要為了自己的權益去打憲法官司？部長，你看到你下面的這些老師，你要照顧的老師需要這樣子維護自己的權益，你都不會覺得很難過哦？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，我們所努力的，包含……"],["葉委員元之：你有肩膀你就扛下來，你直接發文給……"],["潘部長文忠：包含代理老師的敘薪，這都是在去年大家一起努力，也跟縣市一起努力啦！委員，你在縣市也服務過……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，我現在在講的是這個案子。"],["潘部長文忠：你知道這些訊息……"],["葉委員元之：這樣我又要加20秒了，你不要扯別的，我現在講的是累積年資的問題。"],["潘部長文忠：我回答委員的問題，委員說我扯別的，代理老師要不是去年全國一致，代理老師的聘用連12個月、幾個月都是不一致。"],["葉委員元之：這個我都支持你啦！我現在講的是別的議題。"],["潘部長文忠：不是啦！委員，我們大家一起努力，應該這樣說。"],["葉委員元之：不是，你就肩膀扛起來，你發一個文給各縣市政府說代理教師就跟縣市政府約聘人員一樣，全國統一適用，所有年資都可以累積，做結論就結束了，不用讓他們去打憲政官司，請你研究一下，好不好？可以嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：現在在研究中，沒錯。"],["葉委員元之：研究中，好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請吳春城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-8","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","吳春城","范雲","張嘉郡","羅智強","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","廖偉翔","莊瑞雄","劉建國","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.5572187500000005,"end":8.805968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.805968750000002,"end":9.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.21034375,"end":13.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.25659375,"end":22.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.94721875,"end":29.207843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.579093750000002,"end":31.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.31284375,"end":34.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.337843750000005,"end":34.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.59096875,"end":35.384093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.384093750000005,"end":36.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.400968750000004,"end":37.088468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.611593750000004,"end":40.041593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.75471875,"end":41.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.96534375,"end":43.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.78784375,"end":57.844718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.159093750000004,"end":45.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.945968750000006,"end":88.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.57409375,"end":89.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.29534375,"end":93.70409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.48034375,"end":176.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.65721875,"end":196.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.40534375000001,"end":207.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.25159375,"end":212.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.48721875,"end":215.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.79471875000002,"end":217.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.17846875,"end":221.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.52409375000002,"end":229.14284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.51534375000003,"end":222.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.19846875000002,"end":227.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.80534375000002,"end":233.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.83846875,"end":232.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.05784375000002,"end":233.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.96909375,"end":238.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.66034375,"end":243.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.04409375,"end":240.49971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.57534375,"end":249.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.90846875000003,"end":274.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.78971875,"end":276.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.54471875,"end":298.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.93784375,"end":305.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.75534375,"end":340.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.24784375,"end":341.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.26471875000004,"end":400.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.18846875,"end":342.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.01534375,"end":344.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.39471875000004,"end":348.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.54221875,"end":405.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.94659375000003,"end":413.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.83971875000003,"end":415.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.84784375000004,"end":438.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.78534375000004,"end":454.42409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.85659375,"end":442.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.93909375000004,"end":566.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.6765937499999,"end":568.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.81971875,"end":570.7097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.8997187500001,"end":581.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.6997187500001,"end":584.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.76284375,"end":583.7709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.02409375,"end":584.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.0915937500001,"end":591.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.00284375,"end":586.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.2297187500001,"end":594.3515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.03096875,"end":595.7859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.0390937500001,"end":599.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.36346875,"end":607.7165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.6753437500001,"end":602.7722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.29534375,"end":604.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.48034375,"end":607.6828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.7165937500001,"end":608.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.2734687500001,"end":609.2859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.2859687499999,"end":610.2478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.31971875,"end":610.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.87221875,"end":664.5178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.15471875,"end":612.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.73721875,"end":665.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.98596875,"end":666.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.8972187500001,"end":704.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":693.94784375,"end":693.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":705.20346875,"end":723.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":723.0234687500001,"end":724.5928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":723.96846875,"end":726.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":725.2678437500001,"end":726.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.07784375,"end":728.8115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.31409375,"end":737.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":732.4734687499999,"end":743.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":740.0165937500001,"end":750.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":750.12471875,"end":754.3603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":752.5547187500001,"end":755.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":754.7990937500001,"end":770.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":771.16784375,"end":771.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":771.20159375,"end":771.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":771.9778437500001,"end":772.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":772.58534375,"end":772.6359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":772.85534375,"end":775.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":776.8715937500001,"end":777.2934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":777.63096875,"end":778.9640937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.671,"end":35.754,"text":"麻煩請部長謝謝好 部長委員好部長我們今天是討論教改議題講到教改就很難不講到一個人李遠哲因為我看到李遠哲昨天有出來謝哲他說其實教改沒有問題大家罵他是因為他2000年的時候支持民進黨你認同他講這句話嗎我不曉得李院長怎麼說他就這樣說你認同嗎"},{"start":37.642,"end":62.571,"text":"我尊重他的說法尊重那你認同嗎沒有尊重我沒有什麼認同不認同你不敢講沒關係你不敢講我個人是非常不認同他說廣設大學和他無關而且他還拉台積電的董事長劉德英幫他背書他說劉德英講說教改會的成果真的是非常了不起這是李遠哲講的我們來看一下他2014年說什麼"},{"start":63.831,"end":87.898,"text":"他2014年因為是當時教改虧弄20年嘛今年是30年嘛那李遠哲講說他自己講到教改沒有成功是因為社會沒有公平正義那你自己就已經講了教改沒成功了嘛你在10年前說教改沒成功10年後你說教育教改很棒連劉德英都稱讚我那我不懂這個李遠哲是不是10年來是不同的李遠哲講話可以這樣子前後矛盾啊"},{"start":88.678,"end":93.411,"text":"然後我們再來看廣設大學和他有沒有關係喔我們特別去看了民國"},{"start":95.481,"end":122.163,"text":"當時就是30年前教改會的報告你可以看到他其中有一個建議就是要發展各具特色高等學府其中就包括要有綜合型大學研究型大學技術學院多元技術學院科技大學開放大學社區學院要容納所有要接受不同型態高等教育的人口那台灣這麼小大學這麼有限你要符合這麼多的特色這麼多的類型你不管設大學要怎麼完成要怎麼達到"},{"start":123.164,"end":147.773,"text":"所以這就明明就是當時他們的建議嘛現在可以甩鍋說這個東西跟他無關然後再來我們來看當時他說高等要發展廣設大學各具特色的高等教育學府有什麼配套措施我們來看他其中有一項他其中有一項就說要讓要解除學費的限制要讓各大學開放隨便他們去收學費我就問啊經歷了這30年經歷了這30年我沒有開放學費限制嗎"},{"start":151.934,"end":176.187,"text":"有放寬嗎?沒有!我們不僅是沒有放寬而且我們現在是讓大家學費幾乎一樣因為我們現在有補助私校的學生所以30年來他所謂的配套和他當時的主張根本背道而馳然後我們再來看當時的教改會也有推動一個叫做多元入學方案李遠哲說這個入學這是他講的2014年他說的他說多元入學考試"},{"start":177.728,"end":206.767,"text":"就是不公不義啦因為他會造成更大的落差因為鄉下的孩子會提早在多元入學的這個規則下面出局這是他的原話我一個字都沒有加然後你去看他民國85年他的報告上面就寫著要推動多元入學制度就他講的喔然後甚至於多元入學制度的配套是什麼呢他的目標是什麼呢他寫說長期我們整個入學我們要以申請為主"},{"start":208.29,"end":214.867,"text":"要以申請為主喔我們用紅色框下來說要申請為主啊那我問一下部長30年我們現在是申請為主嗎"},{"start":216.211,"end":235.707,"text":"跟委員報告是不是還有考試有沒有學測有沒有指考有沒有講的是入學的幾個多元管道對嘛現在我們在進行的還有推薦繁星入學啊我知道啦那是不是以這個為主嘛是不是一半以上都是這個嘛是不是嘛現在推增加那個是超過50%超過50%那是多少50所以他講的為主是50喔"},{"start":238.689,"end":245.894,"text":"我現在要講就是說一個當初提出要教改的人講話前後矛盾然後當初的主張後來不敢承認甚至於後來他的講法已經打臉了他當時的主張那這證明什麼一件事這證明說我們教改就失敗了嘛"},{"start":267.589,"end":274.111,"text":"如果沒有失敗的話那教改會的召集人何必講話要這樣前後矛盾我都不曉得哪一個是李遠哲了啊"},{"start":274.844,"end":298.064,"text":"所以現在被改得亂七八糟難道教育部你們不應該可是快要換部長但是現在還有一個多月難道教育部不該召開一個全國的教育會議嗎把這30年來這種亂七八糟亂象重新做一個檢討嗎不管是入學的升學制度或者是大學的這個廣設大學所造成的後遺症"},{"start":299.085,"end":327.681,"text":"那麼多的問題 難道真的不應該開一個會讓大家重新定一個未來的發展方向嗎 部長你覺得咧跟我們報告 教育一直都在演變 環境也一直在演變適時的讓各界來參與 把現況做一些討論跟我覺得是有必要啦 因為教育跟著快的速度非常快 產業變化我也知道那個絕對不是我們當時所想像 所以整個30年台灣教育的變革即使是多面向"},{"start":328.641,"end":345.172,"text":"那碰到嫂子林化後﹐確實我們面對當時﹐本來所希望讓孩子有更多接受高等教育的機會﹐以現在來看﹐確實是跟嫂子化這個有很大的﹐因為你都沒有正確我的問題回答﹐沒關係﹐我是覺得如果要負責任的話﹐應該真的要召開一個全國會議﹐因為說實在的﹐教改30年﹐他當初定的是一個長程的規劃﹐"},{"start":354.699,"end":379.194,"text":"但是這個長程都沒有達到﹖所以我們是應該再開一個會﹖再重新訂一個短程、中程、長程的規劃﹖如果說你每一年在做小幅的調整﹖削足市旅﹖我覺得是達不到那個目標的﹖所以希望教育部可以真的是召集全國專家徹底的檢討一下﹖那也就是因為李遠哲他們廣設大學造成現在有很多大學要退場了﹖對吧﹖"},{"start":380.074,"end":399.452,"text":"我們看到這個是教育部給我們的報告裡面就寫的一百年是我們所有學校的高峰163間嘛那112年現在只剩145間所以其實大學退場是很快的那現在很多大學因為因應超高齡的社會所以實際上是想要把原本的學校的校地去轉做長照對吧應該是這樣對不對"},{"start":401.153,"end":415.127,"text":"應該說有些學校如果設有相關這個科系他是可以這樣分社好 那問題就在這裡了其實很多學校他們是設在偏鄉因為很多準備要退場的學校就是在偏鄉偏鄉他就是"},{"start":415.908,"end":416.108,"text":"主席"},{"start":435.143,"end":444.611,"text":"可不可以是在一定的規定底下讓他們也可以...應該不是唯一護理系是跟相關科系這個從學校來講因為學校主體還是辦學如果說他能夠增加這一方面科系的規劃而且也符合台灣未來高齡社會的需求教育部本身你的第一個就是他第一個門檻就比較高第二個教育部要更精益去輔導因為現在退場的非常多的學校然後第二我給教育部一個建議就是說"},{"start":463.487,"end":481.045,"text":"如果有這些學校他未來退場之後做長照或做高齡教育啊你們要去稽查你們要去考核就是他高齡教育到底做的怎麼樣因為根據我個人我之前研究或是我的觀察很多高齡教育都開個課程長輩來上有吃東西了認識一些人就結束這個對於活躍老化一點幫助都沒有啊"},{"start":481.385,"end":506.02,"text":"你真正要做活躍老化應該是一個班級你有系統性的針對身體心理心靈甚至人際健康各方面的課程規劃還有前側後側有一個整體系統性的讓他們來上這個才有幫助如果一般只是說來這邊老人共餐一下然後上個課然後怎麼一個禮拜來兩天然後愛來不來的其實這個效果是非常有限"},{"start":506.52,"end":521.889,"text":"所以我們如果要做高齡教育我們要認真做要因應高齡社會的變化再來就是說未來的我們現在對待長輩的態度也要跟以前不一樣過去大家對待長輩就是好像就把長輩業務放在衛生局或放在社會局衛生局就是說"},{"start":523.129,"end":551.722,"text":"你讓你健康好一點不要用太多健保社會就會給你一點福利現在對待長輩不是用這種態度他們已經成為我們社會的主體了我們要把長輩當作目的不是只是把他當作好像會連累我們社會的一群人我們要以他們為主所以你在做高齡教育的時候也要實際上去調查這些長輩他實際上他想要學的課程是什麼他能不能透過他比如說退休之後學習到東西可以補足他這人生也許他兒童年齡童年時代的缺憾"},{"start":552.082,"end":568.063,"text":"就說大家要去調查一下長輩的需求所以我覺得大學退場做長照我非常支持希望教育部可以鬆綁看是法律上面還是怎麼樣然後要協助要去幫助他們要去精進這高齡教育的課程我覺得才是我覺得才是比較有幫助的啦"},{"start":568.851,"end":570.653,"text":"主席我要增加他30秒因為他扯到那裡我肯定委員還這麼說"},{"start":596.135,"end":597.895,"text":"現在你知道大學大學現在面臨到一個問題就是除了招生困難之外還要留下學生你知道嗎"},{"start":622.481,"end":622.701,"text":"最後我在30秒我講一下"},{"start":652.386,"end":663.732,"text":"這是我一個陳情案有代理教師跟我陳情他說為什麼他們從別的縣市轉任過來到其他縣市過去在別的縣市的代理教師年資不能夠銜接這個部長你知道這個問題嗎這個有一個釋憲案這釋憲案我覺得問題根本就不需要釋憲嘛"},{"start":669.956,"end":690.073,"text":"你教育部不能把這個東西推給地方啦為什麼呢因為每一個縣市政府也有約聘人員嘛那約聘人員能不能夠累積他過去在別的地方的年資都是可以為什麼因為這是中央統定定定的規定啊那為什麼只有在代理教師這一塊你就說我要尊重我要去尊重什麼地方自治各縣市自己決定"},{"start":690.914,"end":703.732,"text":"這是教育部不願意沒有肩膀把這個東西甩鍋給地方你只要有肩膀你直接定說這個東西跟地方政府的約聘人員一樣我們統一一定要銜接年資就結了嘛為什麼要讓代理教師去釋憲"},{"start":705.553,"end":722.181,"text":"我突然覺得那代理教室很可憐欸代理教室不是教師嗎?不是軍公教人員嗎?他們沒有去學校上課嗎?為什麼他們還需要為了自己權益去打憲法官司?部長你看到你的下面的這些老師你要照顧的老師需要這樣子維護自己權益你都不會覺得很難過喔?"},{"start":723.061,"end":735.025,"text":"委員我們所努力的 發函代理老師的訊息 這都是在去年大家一起努力 跟縣市一起努力啦沒有我現在 我現在在講的是這個案子 這些訊息啊 等一下我又要加20秒了 你不要扯別的"},{"start":740.046,"end":765.078,"text":"我先講回答委員的問題我先講是累積年資的問題委員 代理老師要不是去年全國一致代理老師的聘用年12個月幾個月都是不一致這個我都支持你啦我現在講的是別的議題啦不是啦 委員我們大家一起努力啦不是 你就肩膀扛起來你發一個文 各縣市政府說代理教師就跟縣市政府約聘人員一樣全國統一適用所有年資都可以累積"},{"start":765.939,"end":766.139,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151284","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151284","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f0162785c60bafe6ee3f3dcf744a9f110b3b1fc5dab72e655c1c94cb86eaca5078d11d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:53:36 - 11:59:19","影片長度":"00:05:43","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":343,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:59:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:53:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":777,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時53分）好，謝謝主席。那我們有請金管會主委和保險局局長。謝謝。"],["主席：有請黃主委和施局長。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：你好。想要跟兩位繼續討論關於運動員保險的問題。我每次到這個委員會來，都是要問運動員保險的事情。前一陣子，大概在三個禮拜前，有一個新聞，不知道兩位有沒有看到這個新聞，這個新聞說，在相關的會議上，籃球亞洲盃資格賽和籃協會員大會上，有一個很重要的人講了一段很奇怪的話，不知道兩位有沒有注意到這個新聞？他說，球員爭取保險是為了退佣的事情，你們有沒有聽過這段話？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我沒有，是不是局長跟您報告？"],["施局長瓊華：我們沒聽過這樣的訊息。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們就從退佣這件事情來討論好了。兩位對於退佣這件事情，在民間的版本或是在你們專業的版本，你們怎麼看這個人相關的發言？"],["施局長瓊華：佣金是業務員招攬這個業務得到的報酬，有一些民眾會跟業務員要求退佣，會有類似這樣的情形，但是這個是我們的法規所禁止的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，很好，謝謝你的回應。法規明文規定禁止，對嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。如果是這樣，我來跟你說一下，當時在這個會員大會上發言的人叫郭俊仁先生，如果大家覺得這個人是一般人的話，那我們覺得也就算了，可是要跟兩位報告，這位籃協的監事主席，並非跟保險無關，他的資料我們上網查了，他其實是臺灣某一家保險公司的協理，也就是說，他是專業從業人員，所以如果按照您剛剛的說法，於法規規定禁止退佣行為，但是他卻在公開場合對球員，對整個保險公司，做出不實的指控，甚至說出你們明文規定禁止的事情，請問兩位怎麼看這個事情？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個當然是不應該，我們會再查，如果這位郭先生的確是掛名保險公司的負責人，我們會去處理。"],["陳委員培瑜：那您所謂的要再查，您認為要查什麼？"],["黃主任委員天牧：他這個言行有沒有講事實，是否跟您所提的是一致的，我們會去瞭解。"],["陳委員培瑜：但其實我要談的是，運動員保險單在目前的狀況是不是有退佣的事情，我覺得就是您剛剛說的，你必須要去查，那為什麼他會在現場做出這樣的言論跟指控？我真心要說，對保險公司，尤其是這個案子，對保險公司跟球員都非常的不公平，在事後很多球員回應，包含他們自己也說從來沒有這樣的事情，他們不知道為什麼這個監事主席說出這樣的指控，所以也要拜託你們繼續去查，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：可以。我想保險就是分散風險，不應該用這種退佣去對這個事情做這樣的一個說明，我覺得是不妥的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。您剛剛說，針對保險人員疑似宣稱可以透過保險退佣的說法，到底相關的業務倫理這件事情，是不是可以再做更多重要的宣示或相關的業務盤點？假設臺灣目前如您說的，有很多業務員為了達到他的業績，為了達到他承攬業績的KPI，所以他必須做出這樣的事情，看起來好像大家都知道，但是大家就默許了這個狀況，那你們是不是應該更積極地處理？我們只是從籃球運動員的保險這件事情，再請你們積極回應這件事情。"],["施局長瓊華：好。報告委員，因為退佣這件事情，我們在法令上明定是不可以的，所以如果有查到的話，我們會要求公司依法處理，如果公司在管理上不當，我們也會處分公司，所以我們會去清查一下。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。剛剛請教你們兩位的，就拜託你們在一個月內完成，有機會嗎？因為現在大家都會說不確定520以後會不會在，但是距離520還有一些時間，所以我們就押一個月內完成，可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：可以，局長還是在。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，大家現在都不能確定。好，OK。","再說下一個問題，之前有一個記者會，我相信你們也都有出席，在這個蔡其昌委員、林宜瑾委員和莊瑞雄委員召開的有關運動員保險的公聽會，保險局代表也有出席，當天保險局代表的發言給了體育署很重要的指導。我必須這麼說，因為從當天體育署的發言，可以感受到體育署對於保險這個議題的想法，真的是有一點天馬行空。我們辦公室有積極跟體育署討論，包含他們當天說要把運發基金拿來當再保單位，其實我相信就兩位的專業認知，應該知道這種說法離保險實務非常遙遠，對不對？"],["施局長瓊華：再保的話，要成立再保公司才有可能承接再保。"],["陳委員培瑜：那我們來看一下，我們當然要感謝願意提供運動員保險商品保單的保險公司，可是相關費率的調整，我們要拜託金管會積極跟保險公司討論。那我最後想要拜託你們，可不可以研議一件事情？其實在現行的保險法第十百六十七條之一的函釋裡面，可以接受保險代理人去進行海外保險商品的部分，但是目前沒有辦法放在運動員保險商品裡面。有沒有機會納入函釋跟討論，讓我們的運動員有更多保險的選擇？可不可以請你們在一個月內研議，並給我們回復？"],["施局長瓊華：這個部分我們研究一下，再跟委員報告。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我們就都開啟研究，好嗎？謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好。謝謝陳培瑜委員的質詢。","接著我們請陳玉珍委員質詢。","因為時間已經接近12點，我們就開放現場用餐，我們就不休息了。陳委員請。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-8","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","王世堅","顏寬恒","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","羅明才","林楚茵","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","吳春城","陳亭妃","王定宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就\n「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":1.3134687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.5959687500000004,"end":4.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.8615937500000004,"end":4.2497187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.92471875,"end":5.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.03409375,"end":8.164718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.68346875,"end":9.869093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.919718750000001,"end":36.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.71721875,"end":42.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.298468750000005,"end":44.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.71596875,"end":46.690343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.955968750000004,"end":59.346593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.17096875,"end":49.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.626593750000005,"end":49.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.540343750000005,"end":68.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.67846875000001,"end":80.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.96346875,"end":129.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.76159375,"end":130.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.96409375000002,"end":134.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.25034375,"end":141.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.28721875000002,"end":149.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.79659375,"end":180.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.03221875,"end":181.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.97721875000002,"end":187.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.11971875,"end":220.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.95846875,"end":221.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.53221875000003,"end":237.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.39909375000002,"end":237.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.71534375000002,"end":249.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.74909375000001,"end":237.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.50221875000003,"end":291.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.82909375,"end":298.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.28409375,"end":297.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.58346875,"end":325.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.58346875,"end":334.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.82659375000003,"end":343.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.79159375,"end":344.39909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":0.611,"text":"有請黃主委,院司局。"},{"start":9.684,"end":35.152,"text":"好那想要跟兩位繼續討論關於這個運動員保險的問題喔那我每次到這個委員會來都是要問運動員保險的事情那前一陣子大概在三個禮拜前喔有一個新聞不知道兩位有沒有看到這個新聞這個新聞說呢在這個相關的會議上藍球亞洲盃資格賽還有藍鞋會員大會上呢有一個很重要的人他講了一段很奇怪的話不知道兩位有沒有注意到這個新聞他說呢"},{"start":36.812,"end":41.474,"text":"兩位覺得退佣這件事情在民間的版本或是在你們專業的版本怎麼看這個人相關的發言?"},{"start":62.29,"end":79.736,"text":"因為佣金是業務員因為招攬這個業務得到的報酬那當然會有一些民眾會跟業務員這個要求這個類似退佣這樣的情形但是這個是我們的法規所禁止的"},{"start":80.196,"end":107.944,"text":"很好,謝謝你的回應。法規、明文規定禁止,對嗎?好,那另外請。那如果是這樣,我來跟你說一下,當時在這個會員大會上,發言的人這位叫郭俊仁先生。如果大家覺得這個是一般人的話,那我們覺得也就算了。可是要跟兩位報告,這位藍鞋的監事主席,他並非跟保險無關。他的資料我們上網查了,他其實是台灣某一家保險公司的協理。"},{"start":108.604,"end":129.287,"text":"也就是說他是專業從業人員所以如果按照您剛剛的說法與法規定禁止退休行為但是他卻在公開場合甚至這樣對球員對整個保險公司做出不實的指控甚至說出你們覺得你們明文規定禁止的事情請問兩位怎麼看這個事情"},{"start":130.799,"end":131.379,"text":"您所謂的要再查,你認為要查什麼?"},{"start":149.833,"end":168.562,"text":"但其實我要談的是整個目前運動員保險單到底在目前的狀況是不是有退用的事情我覺得就是您剛剛說的你必須要去查不然為什麼他會在現場做出這樣的言論跟指控我真心要說對保險公司尤其是這個案子保險公司跟對球員都非常的不公平"},{"start":169.182,"end":179.933,"text":"在事後的很多球員回應上包含他們自己也說從來沒有這樣的事情他們不知道為什麼這個監事主席他要說出這樣的指控所以也要拜託你們要積極去查可以嗎"},{"start":181.072,"end":187.776,"text":"好那再來就是如果您剛剛說的針對保險人員他們疑似宣稱可以透過保險退用的說法到底相關的業務倫理這件事情我相信是不是可以再做更多很重要的宣示或相關的業務盤點"},{"start":202.765,"end":202.785,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":222.464,"end":248.549,"text":"因為推庸這件事情我們是在法令上明定是不可以的所以如果有查到的話其實我們會要求公司依法要處理那如果公司在管理上不當我們也會處分公司所以我們會去清查一下剛剛請教你們兩位的就拜託你們可以在一個月內完成有機會嗎因為現在大家都會說不確定520會不會在嘛但是還有一些時間所以我們就押一個月內完成可以嗎可以我局長還會在"},{"start":255.47,"end":270.115,"text":"在之前有一個記者會我相信你們其實也都有出席在這個蔡其昌委員、林益錦委員還有莊惠雄委員的這個運動員保險的公聽會上會中保險局也有出席那當天保險局的發言其實給了體育署很重要的指導我必須這麼說"},{"start":271.095,"end":287.6,"text":"因為當天體育署的發言可以感受到體育署很多對於保險這個議題的想法真的是有一點天馬行空我們辦公室當然自己積極都有在跟體育署討論包含他們當天說要把運發基金拿來當再保單位其實我相信就兩位的專業認知應該離保險實務非常遙遠對不對這種說法"},{"start":293.773,"end":312.001,"text":"財保的話要成立財保公司才有可能成就財保我們來看一下可是我們當然要感謝願意提供運動員保險商品保單的保險公司可是相關費率的調整我們要拜託金管會積極跟保險公司討論那我最後想要拜託你們可不可以研議一件事情"},{"start":312.481,"end":333.903,"text":"其實在現行的保險法167-1條的函式裡面可以接受保險代理人去進行海外保險商品的部分但是目前沒有辦法在運動員保險商品裡面有沒有機會納入函式跟討論讓我們的運動員選手有更多保險的選擇可不可以請你們在一個月內做出演繹跟給我們回覆"},{"start":336.675,"end":338.996,"text":"這個部分我們研究一下再跟你們報告。"}]}},{"id":"151283","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151283","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016274bef1c3e3c69d494068d0b55d8f96a4ec5dab72e655c1c94f4d63c271f6545ab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:44:30 - 11:55:04","影片長度":"00:10:34","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":634,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:55:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:44:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":290,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時44分）請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長好。部長，你有沒有看過捍衛戰士（Top Gun）這個電影？"],["邱部長國正：沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：你沒有看過喔！所以你大概也不太認識裡面的主角湯姆克魯斯。"],["邱部長國正：主角我認得啊！"],["洪委員申翰：認得喔？"],["邱部長國正：因為電影明星嘛！"],["洪委員申翰：電影明星認得嘛？"],["邱部長國正：對，對。"],["洪委員申翰：這是一部很有名的電影。就你知道，他當然是一個飛行員，那他是不是隸屬於空軍？這個部長知道嗎？"],["邱部長國正：這我概略了解，就是他在訓練過程當中，有譜出一些故事來，但我沒有整個電影去看完啦！沒有。"],["洪委員申翰：好。他在電影裡面是隸屬於海軍陸戰隊的航空隊。因為美國海軍其實對於飛行的機組員非常地重視，他們雖然不是跟空軍來借調，所以它也不是任務編組，它其實是一個專責部隊專屬的官科。當然這專屬官科比較能夠藉由一個培訓或升遷的管道，來吸引年輕人加入，因為其實人才非常非常關鍵。所以今天，部長，我是要跟你來討論一下關於無人機打、裝、編、訓的相關工作。","部長，之前你們在無人機專案的報告裡面其實有寫出來，你們大概分了3個層級，包括聯戰層級、戰術層級跟戰鬥層級。聯戰層級的導控距離比較遠，150公里以上，配置的軍種是空軍跟海軍；戰術是20到150公里，是在三軍各部隊；戰鬥是20公里以下，那是各基層部隊。部長，以我們聯戰層級為例的話，我們跟美軍買4架MQ-9B的「海上衛士」大型無人機，其實我們的金額很高，大概兩百多億元，預計在2026年接裝。部長我想問，未來聯戰層級的大型無人機的機組員會是什麼官科跟軍階？"],["邱部長國正：空軍講一下。"],["曹參謀長進平：委員好，我是空軍參謀長曹進平。"],["洪委員申翰：是。"],["曹參謀長進平：因為空軍是沒有官科的分別，是以專長來區分你操作的類型……"],["洪委員申翰：所以我們無人機的部分，即便是一個大型無人機，不會有專屬的官科跟軍階？"],["曹參謀長進平：因為空軍本來就沒有官科的設置，但是會以專長的方式來編制。"],["洪委員申翰：是專長，是不是？"],["曹參謀長進平：所以會有專責編組。"],["洪委員申翰：這些無人機會怎麼來編組？"],["曹參謀長進平：我們未來有一個部隊，它專門在負責這個無人機的操作，包括它的情傳、網路所有資料的蒐集跟維護，都是專責單位。"],["洪委員申翰：是專責單位來處理是不是？"],["曹參謀長進平：是專責單位，對。"],["洪委員申翰：他們沒有自己升遷上面的官科？沒有？"],["曹參謀長進平：在空軍沒有官科的區別，但是他的升遷都是會很順暢，不會有阻礙。"],["洪委員申翰：OK。"],["曹參謀長進平：是。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我們之前看到，我知道對你們來說，其實在基層部隊的小型無人機的部分，大概你們會把它當作有點像是一般的步兵、裝甲兵那些延伸的裝備再去處理。目前為止，我其實想要提醒一個事情是，現在在大型無人機的機組員上面，包括不管是聯戰層級跟戰術層級，我們在他們升遷的規劃上面，不要落入過去可能它只是一個任務編組的狀況，因為這其實會影響很多，他可能對這個事情有專業，可是他可能一去飛了無人機以後，他離開自己本身部隊的時候，他就會遇到外職斷資的狀況，可能會影響很多人，其實不願意投入到這裡面；或者是他其實曾經投入到他過去的升遷管道上面出問題；或相比於其他同一期的人來說，他其實就會有一個落差。甚至他在退伍以後，或者是他比較寧願選擇退伍來去像無人機的部隊。","所以其實是有不少人來跟我們建議或提醒，對於無人機未來怎麼編組，尤其是有沒有一個專責、專屬的單位，來去作為升遷的管道，這部分很重要。部長，這部分也希望你們接下來可以多留意，可以嗎？"],["邱部長國正：可以。跟委員報告，有一些操作可能是某一項職務他具備了專長，這個職務完了以後，他就換到另外地方去。我不能講跟升遷完全無關，但有的單位需要專業人員，譬如剛剛空軍所講的，他雖然沒有官科，但如果有具備飛行經驗的人來操作的話，那就更好。不同的人到這個單位以後，他將來的發展也不一樣，我想在這個過程當中都可以再來調整，基本上我們要先界定，這個單位是一直在那邊飛無人機的，那這就是一個專業單位。假如不是，就部分人，等於他占這個缺，你是步槍兵、你是搜索兵，你就要操作無人機，那這個就跟他的職務將來升遷沒有關係。"],["洪委員申翰：對，但是我的意思是說，他可能到這個專屬的單位上面去，在這個專屬單位上面，我覺得我們要幫他設計升遷的職級。"],["邱部長國正：對，是。"],["洪委員申翰：他有明確的升遷職級的出路，我們才能夠包括對於這個單位進行績效的管考，其實這跟我們後面的一些相關無人機建軍的工作上可能是很關鍵，不只是設備買進來，這部分是我想要提醒部長的事情。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["洪委員申翰：第二個是，我必須說，我們剛才前面進行機密報告，當然我們尊重召委有排機密專報的權利，但是坦白說，我剛才聽到機密專報裡面，我覺得有點小小的complain，說這個機密不夠機密，這機密專報裡面的內容都是在媒體上面看得到的。","認真說，當在我們國防外交委員會裡面，其實之前洩密的司法案件的疑雲還沒有得到釐清，也包括我們在國會改革裡面，對於洩密相關的機制可能還沒有建立夠完全的狀況之下，我完全可以理解。到底今天在這機密專報裡面要放入多少的資訊，我完全可以理解這件事情。","所以我希望，剛剛不管大家提到黃曙光這個的問題，假如有弊案，該查清楚就查清楚，我覺得這完全沒有問題。趕快查！包括部長應該都支持把大家有疑問的部分，趕快查，這沒有問題吧？對不對？"],["邱部長國正：這應該的啊！既然有疑問嘛！我們就要有個交代嘛！但這交代我們跟委員報告的……"],["洪委員申翰：對，但我覺得該對於過去有貢獻的人……"],["邱部長國正：那當然！我們不能否定。"],["洪委員申翰：對過去有貢獻的人應該要給予肯定。"],["邱部長國正：對，對，我們不會否定他。"],["洪委員申翰：尤其這是一件非常非常艱難的任務，甚至國際上面都不看好的任務。我想大家都知道，臺灣要做這件事情是非常非常困難的。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["洪委員申翰：在這麼困難，包括對岸在技術上面、各種透過外交力量的封鎖，我們能夠有突破，這個突破是來自於這裡面，我想不只是黃曙光，包括海發中心、包括台船，大家做了這麼多的努力。我明確地說，我覺得這個努力不應該被各種方式去踐踏。該釐清，我們就把它釐清。但對於怎麼樣能夠把洩密的問題，或者是機密防制的問題建立好，我覺得這個我們必須建立好。","所以部長，當然也許你接下來的任期還剩一個月，我們大家都知道，也許還剩一個月，但我還是希望說我們可以再勉勵我們自己的國軍同仁，包括國防部的同仁，在這麼困難的工作裡面，還是願意……不然我說實話，以後沒有人願意為國家做困難的事情。如果為國家做困難的事情都要遭受到這種貼標籤，甚至這麼多捕風捉影的指責的話，我覺得真的沒有人願意做。今天在委員會，我們還是必須把這個話給講出來，謝謝！"],["邱部長國正：是。謝謝委員，委員講得很對。有些事情我們沒辦法去改變它，但我們要改變我們自己去調適它，不是一味地依從。事實上，剛剛委員也點出幾個問題來。你講機密、非機密，假如不講，人家說「外面都有，那還叫什麼機密？」但不一樣哦！媒體報導跟我們講出來就不一樣了哦！為什麼有些報紙出來以後，它就追著我們國防單位這些有關的人員去追問啊！因為從你口裡面講出來的，跟媒體上看到的，不一樣的。所以我們這裡面該拿捏，還是要拿捏，委員該問，一定可以問，但我們要跟委員報告，有些很機敏的，我們一定是派人到委員那裡去單獨做說明……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，從立法院的角度來說，當然我們希望知道更多的資訊、更完整的資訊，有助於監督，這沒有問題，但怎麼在取得機密資訊以後，我們怎麼樣防範它外洩的機制。坦白說，我自己身為一個立法委員，也覺得這部分立法院有責任把機制給建立完備，這也有助於未來我們怎麼樣跟國防部可以再了解到更完整的資訊，包括機密資訊的時候，大家都可以有一個在機制上面的信任感，我覺得我們比較是從這個角度去想這個事情。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["洪委員申翰：而不一定只是一味地說你給的資料不夠機密。假如自己立法院內部的機密管控的機制做得不到位的時候，大家信任感也都會怕怕的，這完全可以理解的事情。所以我們還是希望說，剛才講到今天國艦國造的問題，還是希望接下來我們的國防部，或者是我們的相關單位能夠繼續勇於任事啦！"],["邱部長國正：了解。"],["洪委員申翰：不要被這些大大小小、外面的，可能不實、可能捕風捉影的狀況給嚇退了，或者是給挫折了，這不是大家希望的事情。以上，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-13","speakers":["馬文君","林楚茵","黃仁","陳永康","羅美玲","王定宇","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","李柏毅","洪孟楷","羅智強","林憶君","王鴻薇","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢（含秘密會議）","agenda_id":"1133001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.45284375,"end":1.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.68471875,"end":2.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.98721875,"end":10.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.03784375,"end":10.544093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.544093750000002,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.62846875,"end":10.645343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.645343750000002,"end":10.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.965968750000002,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.387843750000002,"end":12.113468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.450968750000001,"end":12.636593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.94034375,"end":15.927218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.24784375,"end":18.762218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.762218750000002,"end":19.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.403468750000002,"end":20.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.12471875,"end":24.465968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.12409375,"end":25.832843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.828468750000003,"end":31.317218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.03034375,"end":31.688468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.55346875,"end":38.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.48909375,"end":46.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.09971875,"end":49.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.40284375,"end":56.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.61284375,"end":111.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.19909375,"end":122.37471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.04971875000001,"end":135.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.02221875,"end":138.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.43971875,"end":148.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.97409375,"end":148.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.04159375,"end":153.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.55971875,"end":159.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.64346875,"end":159.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.98909375000002,"end":162.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.38534375,"end":172.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.61159375,"end":174.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.07971875,"end":178.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.13034375,"end":175.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.56846875000002,"end":184.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.99784375000002,"end":185.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.58846875,"end":185.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.14534375000002,"end":201.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.04159375,"end":216.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.19534375,"end":226.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.30346875,"end":233.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.03659375,"end":261.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.52596875,"end":270.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.46971875,"end":278.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.39659375,"end":321.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.02721875000003,"end":354.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.75596875,"end":330.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.23971875,"end":338.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.78284375000004,"end":346.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.82034375,"end":349.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.89096875,"end":362.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.53971875,"end":365.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.44221875000005,"end":370.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.14596875,"end":372.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.93471875,"end":378.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.65096875,"end":391.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.58159375,"end":392.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.93159375000005,"end":411.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.51096875,"end":412.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.90721875,"end":414.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.75096875,"end":419.86409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.92721875,"end":427.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.57596875,"end":430.79909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.79909375000005,"end":430.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":430.88346875,"end":431.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.03534375000004,"end":431.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.06909375000004,"end":433.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.30534375,"end":437.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.47721875,"end":446.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.89346875,"end":453.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.61409375000005,"end":462.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.82784375000006,"end":464.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.78534375000004,"end":468.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.80159375000005,"end":476.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.84659375,"end":481.42409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.76159375000003,"end":493.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.60784375000003,"end":495.76784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.10534375000003,"end":505.79159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.07846875,"end":510.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.34346875000006,"end":514.7859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.24159375,"end":518.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.8528437500001,"end":527.6615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.20159375,"end":530.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.9015937500001,"end":565.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.2590937500001,"end":576.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.46159375,"end":565.8328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.97034375,"end":605.8772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.07971875,"end":620.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.98034375,"end":632.8603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.8603437500001,"end":633.0459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.0459687499999,"end":633.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.1640937500001,"end":634.66596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.492,"end":2.393,"text":"呃請邱部長請邱部長黃委員好部長好吼部長你有沒有看過這個捍衛戰士的這個top gun的這個電影沒有你沒有看過那所以你大概也不太認識這個裡面的這個主角湯姆克魯斯"},{"start":26.877,"end":48.83,"text":"主角我認得因為電影明星嘛這是一部很有名的電影就你知道他當然是一個飛行員但是他是不是隸屬於空軍這個部長知道嗎?我概略了解就他在訓練過程當中有補出一些故事但我沒有整個電影去看完他當然在電影裡面是一個他是隸屬於海軍陸戰隊的航空隊"},{"start":56.704,"end":72.204,"text":"那這個因為美國海軍其實他對於這個飛行的機組也非常的重視所以他們雖然不是這個跟空軍來借調所以他也不是任務編組他其實是一個專責部隊的專屬的官科那當然這專屬官科比較能夠"},{"start":72.805,"end":72.965,"text":"主席"},{"start":92.785,"end":101.072,"text":"其實你們大概分了三個層級一個包括連戰層級戰術層級跟戰鬥層級連戰層級它的導控距離比較遠150公里以上那配置的軍種是空軍跟海軍戰術是20到150公里是在三軍各部隊那戰鬥是20公里以下那是各基層部隊"},{"start":112.284,"end":131.134,"text":"那部長這個以我們聯戰成績為例的話我們跟美軍買4架的這個MQ-9B的這個海上衛士的大型的無人機其實我們的金額很高大概200多億元預計在2026年接裝那部長我想問未來這個聯戰成績的這個大型無人機的機組員會是什麼官科跟軍艦"},{"start":138.822,"end":158.24,"text":"委員好我是空軍參謀長曹敬平因為空軍是沒有官科的分別是以專長來區分你的這個操作的類型所以我們無人機的部分不會進尤其即便是一個大型無人機不會有專屬的官科跟軍階因為空軍本來就沒有官科的設置但是會以專長的方式來編組所以會有專責編組那這些無人機會怎麼來編組"},{"start":162.661,"end":182.702,"text":"我們未來有一個部隊他專門在負責這個無人機的操作包括他的勤船網路的所有資料收集跟維護都是專責單位是專責單位來處理是不是是專責單位那他們沒有自己的升遷上面的官科沒有在空軍沒有官科的區別但是他的升遷都是很順暢不會有阻礙"},{"start":186.209,"end":205.858,"text":"OK 這個我們之前其實看到其實我知道對你們來說其實在基層部隊的小型無人機的部分大概你們會把它當作有點像是一般的步兵裝甲兵的一些延伸的裝備再去處理那目前為止我其實是想要提醒一個事情是說"},{"start":207.158,"end":232.478,"text":"現在在這個大型無人機的機組員上面包括不管是連戰成績跟戰術成績我們在他們升遷的規劃上面是不要只是落入過去其實可能他只是一個任務編組的這種狀況因為這其實會影響很多其實他可能對這個事情有專業可是他可能一去飛無人機以後他離開他自己本身的這個部隊的時候他就會遇到這個"},{"start":234.019,"end":249.104,"text":"﹗"},{"start":249.224,"end":276.602,"text":"或者是他比較願意寧願選擇退伍來去向無人機的部隊所以其實是有不少人來跟我們建議或來提醒對於無人機未來怎麼編組尤其是他有沒有一個專責專屬的單位然後來去做他升遷的管道這部分很重要部長這部分也希望你們接下來可以多留意可以嗎我可以各位委員報告有一些這個操作他可能是某樣職務他具備的專長"},{"start":279.464,"end":300.926,"text":"那這個職務他完了以後他就換到另外的地方去我其實講說我不能講跟升遷完全無關但有單位他要專業人員比如剛剛空軍所講的他雖然沒有官科但有具備非常經驗的人如果來操作的話那就更好但是不同的人到這個單位以後他將來的發展也就不一樣"},{"start":301.727,"end":304.068,"text":"對,但是我的意思是說他其實可能到這個專屬的單位上面去"},{"start":326.152,"end":352.76,"text":"在這個專屬單位上面我覺得我們要幫他設計他的升遷的值級他有明確的升遷值級的出路我們才能夠包括對這個單位進行績效的管考其實這跟我們後面的一些相關這無人機的建軍的工作上其實可能是很關鍵不只是設備買進來了這部分是我想要提醒這個部長的事情那第二個是說剛才當然我必須說我們剛才前面進行這個機密報告"},{"start":356.076,"end":377.666,"text":"當然我說我們尊重召委當然有排機密專報的權利但是坦白說我剛剛聽到說這個機密專報裡面剛剛我們有幾位委員又在我覺得有點小小complain說這個機密不夠機密這機密專報裡面的內容都是在媒體上面看得到的認真說"},{"start":380.21,"end":405.621,"text":"當在我們國防外交委員會裡面其實之前這個洩密的司法案件的這個疑雲還沒有得到成立清那也包括我們其實在這個這個國會改革裡面對洩密相關的機制可能還沒有建立夠完全的狀況之下我完全可以理解其實到底我今天在這機密專報裡面要放入多少的資訊我完全可以理解這件事情"},{"start":406.301,"end":419.426,"text":"所以我其實是希望說,剛剛不管大家提到黃曙光這個的問題,假如有弊案該查清楚就查清楚,我覺得這完全沒有問題。"},{"start":421.107,"end":445.745,"text":"趕快查包括我想部長應該都支持吧這些相關的假如大家有疑問的部分趕快查就這沒有問題吧對不對這應該的啊既然有疑問嘛我們就要有個交代嘛對但我覺得該對於過去有貢獻的人對過去有貢獻的人應該要給予肯定對對我們不會否定他尤其這是一件非常非常艱難的任務甚至國際上面都不看好的任務"},{"start":447.93,"end":476.502,"text":"我想大家都知道我們要做臺灣做自己這個這件事情是非常非常困難的在這麼困難包括各種包括對岸上面在技術上面各種透過外交力量的封鎖上面我們能夠有突破這個突破是來自於這裡面我想不只是黃曙光包括海發中心包括臺船大家做了這麼多的努力我明確的說我覺得這個努力不應該被各種方式去踐踏該釐清我們把它釐清"},{"start":477.878,"end":492.769,"text":"但對於怎麼樣能夠把這個洩密的問題或者是這個機密防制的這個問題我們把它建立好我覺得我們必須建立好所以部長當然也許你接下來的任期還剩一個月我們大家都知道也許還剩一個月但"},{"start":493.67,"end":509.026,"text":"我覺得我還是希望說我們在可以勉勵我們自己的國軍的同仁包括國防部的同仁在這麼困難的工作裡面還是願意不然我說實話以後沒有人願意為國家做困難的事情如果為國家做困難的事情都要遭受到這種貼標籤甚至"},{"start":511.408,"end":515.891,"text":"有些事情我沒辦法去改變他但我要改變我自己去調適他不是一輩子的一寵事實上剛剛委員也點出幾個問題來"},{"start":531.007,"end":554.609,"text":"你講機密非機密不講外面都有還叫什麼機密但不一樣哦媒體報跟我們講出來就不一樣囉為什麼有些報紙出來以後他就追了就追了我們就國防單位的這些這些這個有關的人員去追問啊從你口裡講出來的跟媒體看到的不一樣的"},{"start":555.35,"end":575.782,"text":"所以我們這一份該拿捏還要拿捏委員該問一定可以問但我們要跟委員報有些很機密的我們一直派人到委員會去單獨做說明從立法院的角度來說當然我們希望知道更多的資訊更完整的資訊有助於監督這沒有問題但怎麼在取得機密資訊以後"},{"start":576.963,"end":580.484,"text":"對於未來我們怎麼樣跟國防部可以再瞭解到更完整的資訊包括機密資訊的時候大家都可以有一個在機制上面的信任感我覺得我們要從這個角度去想這個事情"},{"start":597.668,"end":619.995,"text":"而不一定只是因為說你給的資料不夠機密我覺得這樣講假如自己立法院內部的這個機密管控的機制做得不到位的時候大家信任感也都會怕怕的這完全可以理解的質疑所以我們還是希望說剛剛講到今天這個國艦國造的問題還是希望接下來我們的國防部或者是我們的相關單位"},{"start":621.095,"end":622.256,"text":"這不是大家希望的事情以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151282","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151282","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627bd0bb60f274ad58bcf744a9f110b3b1fc5dab72e655c1c947d6d5c14b1ef24585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"11:41:07 - 11:53:21","影片長度":"00:12:14","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":734,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:53:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:41:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":725,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（11時41分）主席、各位列席官員。主席，我想依序邀請金管會黃主委、財政部莊部長，還有經濟部陳次長。"],["主席：請黃主委、莊部長、陳次長。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主委好。部長還有次長，大家好。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["陳次長正祺：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：最近因為中東戰事，導致股票波動，黃金價格更是誇張的飆漲，臺灣銀行黃金存摺售價從今年第一個交易日的1錢臺幣2,069元，來到上週五、12日的高點是1錢2,502元，成長超過20%。過去影響包括外資、投資人、菜籃族，現在直接影響到要結婚的新人，因為大家在傳統禮俗上都要購買黃金增加喜氣，還有各個產業也都需要貴重金屬。黃金價格雖然屬於央行的管理範疇，但影響都是連動的。請教部長、主委還有次長，知不知道昨天銀樓的報價1錢多少錢？知道嗎？不知道！我告訴你，1錢是9,630元，等於破萬是有望的。1錢是3.75克，總共是9,630元。請部長、主委都要掌握這些對於整體財政影響的訊息。部長，請回座。","主委，三大金融公司──中租、裕融跟和潤透過業務通路對外宣布，4月1日全面調降汽機車可貸成數，其中機車可貸金額從30萬降到10萬，本席認為大量放貸給邊緣戶造成債臺高築，與許多社會安全問題都有相關。請教主委，已經過了兩個多禮拜，你有掌握這個情況嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有。"],["顏委員寬恒：有沒有辦法預估今年融資貸款的總件數會有多少，還有增加的貸款金額會有多少？"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝您的指導。我們在剛才的報告中有提到，4月3號公會就通過內部的自律規範，其中也包括內部的融資標準等等，預計可能在金額上跟件數上都會下降，我們會再密切注意這些事情。"],["顏委員寬恒：會下降、有掌握，但是不曉得件數跟金額會落在……"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，我們可以定期跟這些租賃公司瞭解。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。接著請教陳正祺次長。"],["陳次長正祺：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：金管會沒有辦法管理國內的融資公司，因為沒有法令。針對這些地下經濟，根據本席向經濟部要到的資料顯示，國內公司名稱有財務管理、融資、資融的，近三年公司登記的家數成長了22家，代表這個產業在臺灣是很賺錢的。請教次長，經濟部核准設立的標準是什麼？有沒有積極管制公司成立的數量？"],["陳次長正祺：我們依照公司法來受理公司登記，原則上不會有條件。"],["顏委員寬恒：不會有條件？"],["陳次長正祺：它只要符合公司法登記的要求，比方資本充實原則，實際上有相關董事等等的組成，只要合乎公司法規定，原則上……"],["顏委員寬恒：符合法令就可以申請，但是他們所做的這些業務，就像剛剛其他委員講的，低利跟銀行行庫借錢，然後高利放給社會邊緣戶及有需要的年輕人，收取高利被人家認為是高利貸，卻只要符合公司法就可以來申請。"],["陳次長正祺：第一個、現在沒有融資公司這個類別，所以公司登記的時候沒有融資公司，但是……"],["顏委員寬恒：行政院在97年1月30號就通過融資公司法草案，但是在該年2月3號逕付一讀之後就沒有下文，所以我想要問，不管是經濟部還是金管會，是不是消極的、沒有針對目前我們在討論的融資公司法這個問題？97年就已經一讀付委，為什麼沒有積極的作為來訂立這個專法？"],["陳次長正祺：現在行政院有指示，包括金管會、財政部、經濟部等，有在研議未來要怎麼樣來處理這件事情。因為融資是一個坊間的說詞，基本上，它的本質是一個借貸行為，只要沒有用到公眾的資金，金管會目前認為它是保護全國社會大眾的資產，它沒有用到大眾資金，而是以個人的錢，目前法律上並沒有辦法介入個人的借貸行為。"],["顏委員寬恒：請教金管會黃主委，接著剛剛的議題，銀行有銀行法，證券業有證券交易法，保險業有保險法規範，融資公司什麼時候要立法納管？我們剛剛提到97年一讀付委沒有下文，在你的任內、520之前，會不會有行政院的版本出來？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個部分目前大家還在討論，包括剛才消保處鍾處長也有提到，他有在研究各國的法制。因為現在融資公司讓大家物議的一些地方，包括利率，還有重複收費，有些其實現行法規或消保法就可以去管。"],["顏委員寬恒：弊端已經這麼多而且受到社會關注，這樣跟民眾收取高額利率，其實是以非常低的利率從各個銀行行庫拿錢，做這種無本的生意、免錢的生意，是不是會讓人家以為政府默許、政府成為地下金融的幫助犯，難道你們不怕有這樣的說法嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：您的關切非常重要，我們也非常在乎，在這中間消費者或是貸款人的權益有沒有充分告知，以及有沒有被加計不當的費用跟利率，我們都關心，所以……"],["顏委員寬恒：臺灣的經濟主要是依靠中小企業，但是很多中小企業因為公司組織不夠健全、財務不夠完整，沒有辦法從銀行或者金融機構取得其營運所需的全部資金，反而向地下金融借取，就會造成地下金融日益猖獗。因為地下金融免去了層層徵信、照會，對於借款者提供免保證人、有票就可以借，還有迅速撥款等等，所以暴力討債事件層出不窮，引發嚴重社會問題，我們也常常耳聞。如果趕快提出融資公司法草案，可以將金融活動全部導入正軌，有效地讓目前高利貸及地下金融的問題獲得法律規範，所以應該要積極、儘速，好不好？因為都已經討論得很全面了，對不對？還需要多少時間呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有。像召委今天開這個會議就是要廣納各家的意見。"],["顏委員寬恒：所以應該要儘速，不應該再拖延，可不可以在你任期內完成？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我現在是待命要離開的，所以應該是交接過程中，不適合做重大的決策。"],["顏委員寬恒：是，沒有錯，但是你應該有守有為。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：還是要做，只要在任期內，還是要做，尤其這個事件受到所有人關注，包括召委也非常關心，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["顏委員寬恒：我們所有委員提出的這些看法和建議，請金管會要積極地來推動。","另外，融資公司相對於銀行更容易過件，放款利率也高，而且不需要抵押品，所以它特別吸引這些年輕人，信用小白和信用瑕疵的這些人，因為他們在銀行借不到錢，所以只能用高利率來跟融資公司借，那麼這就跟高利貸一樣嘛。所以政府不能默許這種行為持續發生。","我還有一件事要請教，就是約定利率超過週年16%者，超過部分之約定無效，這是民法規定的？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是的。"],["顏委員寬恒：我舉個例，現在機車貸款可以貸款10萬，貸款10萬的話，只要不超過16%，用15%的利率借給他，那他一年的利率就要1.5萬，像這樣的高利，對這些年輕人來講，1.5萬也不算小數目。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["顏委員寬恒：這些融資公司會告訴你，因為約定利率是16%，只要把利率定在16%之內，就是合法的，所以這就變成是政府默許這些融資公司拿低利的資本，來從事高利貸，作為收入。難道這16%不可以調降嗎？不可以修改嗎？可以嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，民法規定最高是16%，不是說只能收16%，可以就他的信用風險去charge，只有當還款延滯的時候，可能會收到16%，所以這個還要看個案，跟您報告。"],["顏委員寬恒：那我們不能夠把這個調整嗎？不能下降嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：民法是民法，不是金管會定的，民法是法務部的。"],["顏委員寬恒：大家關注這個事情，已經發生很多社會事件，所以我們不可以讓他們這樣子吸引這些信用小白，吸引這些年輕人，他們不易貸款，可能在銀行徵信的過程中，沒有辦法順利取得他們需要的貸款，而轉向跟這些融資公司借，變成向地下錢莊借錢。這個不只是我們不可以同意，主管機關要積極地做有效的管理。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，我在最後30天會繼續努力，你放心，謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：加油啦！拜託。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝。謝謝委員。"],["顏委員寬恒：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝顏寬恒委員。","接著我們請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-8","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","王世堅","顏寬恒","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","羅明才","林楚茵","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","吳春城","陳亭妃","王定宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就\n「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.86596875,"end":5.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.32971875,"end":15.285968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.8697187500000005,"end":6.443468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.90159375,"end":18.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.20096875,"end":22.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.49596875,"end":21.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.18346875,"end":24.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.49971875,"end":25.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.727218750000002,"end":30.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.878468750000003,"end":37.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.12221875,"end":38.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.16409375,"end":42.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.92721875,"end":45.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.67784375,"end":49.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.09909375,"end":50.588468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.84159375,"end":58.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.283468750000004,"end":60.173468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.62909375,"end":61.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.69221875,"end":64.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.30346875000001,"end":65.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.63659375,"end":72.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.01534375,"end":74.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.12471875,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.36034375,"end":79.83284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.91284375000001,"end":83.17409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.24159375,"end":86.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.75159375000001,"end":87.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.56159375,"end":95.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.96534375,"end":99.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.15034375,"end":101.71971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.80409375,"end":103.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.35221875,"end":105.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.27159375000001,"end":108.06471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.99284375,"end":110.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.34284375,"end":111.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.36784375,"end":113.34659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.51096875,"end":119.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.62409375000001,"end":121.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.90221875,"end":124.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.29846875000001,"end":127.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.26846875000001,"end":131.40284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.95971875,"end":135.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.75659375,"end":136.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.20784375,"end":139.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.51971875,"end":141.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.91596875000002,"end":144.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.71721875,"end":146.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.47221875,"end":146.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.04596875000001,"end":147.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.19784375,"end":149.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.35784375,"end":151.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.02409375000002,"end":152.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.08721875,"end":156.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.15846875,"end":172.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.86034375,"end":178.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.67409375,"end":180.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.34034375000002,"end":180.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.89721875,"end":184.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.77846875,"end":184.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.96409375000002,"end":185.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.06534375,"end":185.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.09909375,"end":187.39409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.78221875,"end":193.41846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.94159375,"end":199.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.38784375,"end":203.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.33659375000002,"end":208.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.26846875,"end":212.68971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.22971875000002,"end":215.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.72721875000002,"end":216.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.39784375000002,"end":220.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.11034375000003,"end":237.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.61409375000002,"end":241.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.12409375000001,"end":247.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.50284375,"end":248.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.25784375,"end":250.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.18159375000002,"end":253.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.23596875,"end":260.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.90159375,"end":268.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.69784375,"end":268.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.71471875000003,"end":270.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.03096875,"end":270.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.66784375000003,"end":271.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.68471875,"end":278.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.13096875,"end":288.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.29971875,"end":278.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.65409375,"end":278.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.54284375000003,"end":289.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.92659375,"end":293.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.65596875,"end":297.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.34284375000004,"end":301.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.94159375000004,"end":302.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.27471875000003,"end":309.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.63221875,"end":339.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.20159375000003,"end":341.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.61846875000003,"end":344.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.61409375,"end":348.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.66846875000005,"end":356.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.80221875,"end":363.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.73784375,"end":364.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.00346875,"end":370.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.04471875,"end":371.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.06159375000004,"end":372.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.14159375,"end":372.19221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.22596875000005,"end":383.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.48159375,"end":386.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.62034375,"end":388.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.10096875000005,"end":392.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.44221875000005,"end":409.28346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.77284375000005,"end":425.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.11221875,"end":427.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.43659375000004,"end":430.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.20409375,"end":440.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.04659375000006,"end":446.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.82284375,"end":440.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.93159375000005,"end":456.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.03971875,"end":460.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.12346875000003,"end":464.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.97096875000005,"end":466.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.43471875000006,"end":506.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.70284375000006,"end":508.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.03159375,"end":509.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.43221875000006,"end":511.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.53346875000005,"end":510.88784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":511.96784375000004,"end":512.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.00159375,"end":513.1828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.4697187500001,"end":517.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.64221875,"end":518.0090937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.19034375,"end":521.8059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.2109687500001,"end":523.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":524.21909375,"end":524.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.1472187500001,"end":532.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.52159375,"end":540.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.9809687500001,"end":536.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.13659375,"end":539.3390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.09409375,"end":554.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":554.74596875,"end":555.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":556.33221875,"end":556.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":557.1928437500001,"end":573.5109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":574.05096875,"end":599.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":600.32534375,"end":602.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":602.13096875,"end":604.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":604.81409375,"end":605.9953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":606.78846875,"end":610.1128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":610.41659375,"end":611.6484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.25596875,"end":613.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.5890937500001,"end":614.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":615.1753437500001,"end":616.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":617.1328437500001,"end":618.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.3940937500001,"end":620.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":620.84534375,"end":623.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":623.7647187499999,"end":629.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":629.40096875,"end":631.3247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":632.0334687500001,"end":645.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":645.6515937500001,"end":648.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":648.87471875,"end":651.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":651.7434687500001,"end":654.6965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":655.5065937500001,"end":659.3034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":660.1809687500001,"end":663.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":663.7078437499999,"end":663.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.75846875,"end":675.7397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":675.7397187500001,"end":677.6297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.6297187499999,"end":683.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":684.14346875,"end":699.6853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":700.1240937500002,"end":700.5459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":702.53721875,"end":725.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":725.6728437500001,"end":727.5122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":725.90909375,"end":726.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.5122187500001,"end":731.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":730.51596875,"end":730.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":731.24159375,"end":731.2922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":731.2922187500001,"end":733.1653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":731.81534375,"end":733.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.0303437500002,"end":733.9753437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.201,"end":10.83,"text":"主席、各位列席、官員主席,我想依序邀請金管會黃主委、財政部莊部長、經濟部陳次長委員好"},{"start":19.509,"end":40.322,"text":"主委好部長還有次長大家好那我想最近因為中東戰事那導致股票波動還有黃金價格更是飆漲誇張那根據台灣銀行的黃金存摺售價從今年的第一個交易日是2069元台幣一錢"},{"start":43.001,"end":64.601,"text":"那來到上週五12日的高點是1,2502元成長超過20%那過去包括影響外資投資人蔡蘭竹現在直接影響到要結婚的新人因為大家在傳統禮俗上面都要購買黃金增加喜氣那還有各個產業都需要這些貴重金屬那"},{"start":67.048,"end":75.361,"text":"這個黃金價格雖然是屬於央行的管理範疇但是影響都是聯動的所以請教部長、主委那還有次長知不知道昨天銀樓的報價一錢多少錢"},{"start":79.386,"end":105.003,"text":"知道嗎?不知道喔,我告訴你喔,一錢是九千六百三十元啦,一斤喔那等於是破萬是有望的啦,所以一錢是3.75克啦,那總共是九六三零元啦那我想要請所有部長、主委都要掌握這些整體的一個對於財政的影響,好那我再來"},{"start":109.042,"end":129.718,"text":"部長請回座那主委這個三大金融公司就是中租、育農跟和潤那透過業務通路對外宣布說在4月1日全部調降汽機車的可貸成數那其中機車可貸成可貸金額從30萬降到10萬"},{"start":132.32,"end":155.878,"text":"本席認為說大量的放貸給邊緣戶造成債台高築那更多的社會安全問題都有相關我想請教主委已經兩個禮拜多了過去兩個禮拜多你有掌握這個情況嗎那有沒有辦法預估說今年這個融資貸款的總件數會有多少還有增加的貸款金額會有多少"},{"start":156.538,"end":172.55,"text":"各位委員報告謝謝您指導我們在剛才有報告中4月3號他們公會又通過了內部的這個自律的規範那其中也包括內部的融資標準這些所以預計可能在金額上跟件數上都會都會下降我們會再密切注意這些事情"},{"start":173.919,"end":177.302,"text":"市長,因為金管會沒有辦法管理國內的融資公司,沒有法令"},{"start":193.999,"end":220.068,"text":"那這些地下經濟本席要向經濟部要到資料就是說根據我所上的資料國內公司名稱有財務公司融資之榮的近3年這公司的登記的一個加數3年成長了22家代表說這個產業在台灣是很賺錢的那請教次長經濟部核准設立的標準是什麼有沒有積極的管制公司成立的數量"},{"start":221.318,"end":246.026,"text":"報告委員我們依照公司法來來受理公司登記那原則上是不會有條件不會有條件他只要符合公司法的登記的要求比方說資本充實原則那他實際上有相關的這個董事等等的組成只要合乎公司法規定符合法令就可以申請但是他們所做的這些業務就是剛剛像剛剛委員講的說"},{"start":248.027,"end":270.219,"text":"第一例跟我們的這個行庫銀行借錢然後來高利的放給這些社會邊緣戶還有這些有需要的年輕人然後高額高利的收取這些這些代這個高利貸被人家認為是高利貸那這個我們也沒有就只要他符合公司公司法的申請就可以來申辦"},{"start":271.701,"end":297.309,"text":"第一個現在沒有融資公司這個類別所以他登記公司的時候沒有融資公司行政院在97年的1月30號就通過了融資公司的草案但在該年的2月3號進付一睹之後就沒有下文那所以我是想要問說不管是經濟部還是金管會是不是消極的沒有去針對目前我們所"},{"start":299.366,"end":304.998,"text":"我們在討論的這個問題就是融資公司法當初97年就已經驚呼一睹為什麼沒有積極的作為來成立這個專法"},{"start":311.18,"end":338.589,"text":"現在行政院有指示包括金管會、財政部、經濟部等我們有在研議這個未來要怎麼樣來處理這件事情因為融資這是一個坊間的說詞基本上它的本質是一個借貸行為只要它沒有用到公眾的資金的話金管會目前是認為它是保護全國社會大眾的資產所以它沒有用到大眾資金它個人的錢就我們目前法律上並沒有辦法去介入個人的借貸行為"},{"start":339.389,"end":355.963,"text":"市長我想請金管會黃主委是主委那我接著剛剛就是說銀行有銀行法證券業有證券交易法那保險業有這個保險法規範那我們剛剛提到了"},{"start":356.874,"end":370.146,"text":"融資公司什麼時候要立法納管那我們剛剛提到97年的時候經負一睹沒有下文那在你的任命在520之前會不會有行政院的版本"},{"start":371.092,"end":395.713,"text":"出來,會不會?這個部分目前還在大家還有討論那包括剛才消保處的中處長也有提到他有在研究各國的法制那我想這部分因為現在融資公司大家務役的一些地方包括利率還有重複收費有些其實可以現在的法規或消保法就是可以去管的所以說主委就是說弊端已經這麼多而且"},{"start":396.774,"end":424.634,"text":"社會關注那造成的我們這樣高額的跟民眾收取這些利率那從非常低的這個利率從這個各個行戶裡面跟銀行拿錢做這種無本的生意沒錢的生意那變成說是不是會讓人家以為說政府默許然後政府要成為地下金融的幫助犯難道你們不會怕有這樣子的一個說法嗎"},{"start":425.174,"end":446.339,"text":"委員您的關切非常重要我們也非常在乎在這之中間他的消費者或是貸款人的權益他會充分告知以及他有沒有對不當加計不當的費用跟利率我們都關心所以現在臺灣的經濟主要是依靠中小企業但是因為很多中小企業他因為"},{"start":447.139,"end":466.215,"text":"公司組織不夠健全財務不夠完整所以沒有辦法從銀行或者從金融機構取得其營運所需要的資金全部資金那所以他反而向地下金融來藉取所以就會造成我們現在的地下金融日益猖獗因為地下金融"},{"start":467.529,"end":486.261,"text":"免去了層層的這種徵信照會啊然後對於這些借款業者提供免保證啊免保證人啊用票有票就可以借啊還有迅速撥款等等所以暴力討債的事件層出不窮所以社會嚴重的社會問題我們也常常都耳聞"},{"start":487.142,"end":509.14,"text":"那融資公司法如果我們趕快提出草案融資公司法可以將金融活動全部導入正軌有效的讓目前高利貸及地下金融的問題獲得法律的規範所以這個應該要積極要盡速好不好因為我想討論都都已經討論得很全面了嘛對不對"},{"start":510.612,"end":510.712,"text":"主席"},{"start":524.301,"end":524.661,"text":"任期內報告"},{"start":541.576,"end":555.173,"text":"這個事件跟是受到所有人的關注．包括召委也非常關心對不對那我們所有委員還有提出的這些看法還有建議請我們金融會要積極的來推動那另外"},{"start":556.323,"end":573.882,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":574.053,"end":599.462,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":600.373,"end":605.369,"text":"就像偶爾舉個例那現在機車貸款他可以貸款10萬"},{"start":606.963,"end":606.983,"text":"委員會議員"},{"start":632.479,"end":658.227,"text":"讓這些對這些年輕人來講一點話是也不算小數目啦而你來跟他這些融資公司他會告訴你說因為約定利率16%我只要在16%之內我都是合法的所以這就變成說是政府默許這些融資公司拿低利的這個借貸來來做一個高利貸的一個收入啦所以我們已經"},{"start":660.359,"end":682.743,"text":"難道這16%不可以調降嗎?不可以修改嗎?可以嗎?報告委員這個民法最高是16不是說他只能收16他可以依照他的信用風險去charge那只有當他延續的時候可能會收到16所以這個還要看個案跟您報告那我們不能夠把這個調整嗎?不能下降嗎?民法的是民法不是金管會定的民法是法務部"},{"start":684.195,"end":700.256,"text":"我想齁這個不要再我應該講這個大家關注這些事情啦齁那它已經冶然發生了很多的社會事件所以我們要不可以讓這樣子一個用這種好像用"},{"start":703.438,"end":722.697,"text":"來吸取這些信用小白這些年輕人他們不利貸款在銀行可能徵信的過程當中沒有辦法順利的取得這些他們需要的貸款而轉向跟這些融資公司變成向地下錢莊借錢所以這個不只是我們不可以同意我們主管機關要積極的來做一個"},{"start":725.72,"end":725.74,"text":"韓國瑜"}]}},{"id":"151281","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151281","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016274da8a351f35d59c70915613d02a5e1dcc5dab72e655c1c94e6f0bca3cc8d690d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:36:39 - 11:49:16","影片長度":"00:12:37","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（4月17日及18日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":757,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:49:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:36:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":576,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時36分）謝謝召委，有請潘部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：部長好。剛剛前面很多人談到410教改，但我想要來做一個還原，當年410教改的主張其實是廣設公立大學，20所公立大學，讓知識可以普及，但是後來實際上的執行，在作法上面有不一樣，也造成了達成的目標略有不同。當年是20所公立大學，但是後來我們做的其實是所有的技專院校全面升格，院校數從83年的58所大專院校，到後來達到了145所，總數來到159所，所以造成我們現在要來處理這些大學退場的問題、私校退場的問題。但是我自己會覺得啦！就算現在沒有處理大學，坦白說，以少子化的問題，我們還是要來處理專科退場的問題，所以不管怎麼樣，我們現在就是來面對問題、解決問題。","我們來看一下，現在有這麼多的大學數，以我們少子化的狀況，要退場的學校應該不是只有目前的4所吧？但是我收到的資料目前只有這4所，還有就是剛剛講的大漢技術學院會在113年停招。我想要了解的是，以我們目前的推估人數，你看哦！4年之後，大一新生人數即將減少5萬耶！不管怎麼樣，我們可以看到我標籤的黑色方框，在117年是15萬，接下來即便是龍年會有一些增加，但是持續上，在127年之後大概就是15萬以下，所以基本上人數就是會減少，那現在只有這4所學校嗎？我們如何來因應4年之後的問題呢？"],["潘部長文忠：是，剛才委員所提的這4所已經不是專輔學校了，已經正式停辦，正在做後續有關停辦後的財產清點、學生安置等等。"],["張委員雅琳：好，了解。"],["潘部長文忠：目前大專校院，以我們私校退場條例的那些指標，目前大學校院是沒有專輔的學校……"],["張委員雅琳：對，目前是，問題是我們……"],["潘部長文忠：但是從這個生源可以看得出來，我們還是會嚴謹地去檢視目前這些相關的私校是不是會出現有關財務危機或影響教學品質等等的訊息，我們會持續地掌握。"],["張委員雅琳：對，因為我看了一下這個數字，把私校的名額加起來，這個5萬差不多是它的三分之一耶！我們應該還是要儘快地去做更明確的掌握，因為我覺得一個非常重要的東西是說，你到後來才處理的時候，對學生、老師的衝擊都是非常大，我們應該要有一些相關的預警作用或是提醒的方式。你剛剛講到，我們好像有做一些掌握嘛！現在針對這些掌握的學校，有沒有做一些預警跟提醒或是怎麼樣去做一些調整，包括你剛剛講的員額調整等等的？"],["潘部長文忠：對，自從大院這邊通過，我們執行私校退場條例後，其實各大學已經更嚴肅面對，因為以往可能在這上面，大家會覺得學校能夠營運，但是以現在來看，教育部所掌握到的，比如像大漢，為什麼學校董事會會開始去務實地面對？因為整個日夜間部加起來，學生總共一百八十幾位，它要去支撐這個學校的運作，我是舉這個例子，當然教師團體等會有一些其他的疑慮，但是我用這個例子跟委員報告，現在的學校會更務實地去面對這樣的議題。至於說後續，當然也不是只有學校，教育部也要……"],["張委員雅琳：我想這個問題，包含私立的高中職……"],["潘部長文忠：而且會有預警的目的。"],["張委員雅琳：私立的高中職其實也是需要進入這些規劃。"],["潘部長文忠：有，目前私立高中職就有13所是專輔學校。"],["張委員雅琳：對，可是人數就是一直在下降嘛！我覺得這件事情還是要有規劃，因為我們時間有限啦！"],["潘部長文忠：了解。"],["張委員雅琳：我覺得我們一定要有規劃，不能夠這樣子就過去了，因為這對師生有直接的影響。"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["張委員雅琳：再來，這些退場的學校後來追蹤之後，發現他們的退學率都很高耶！轉退學率，你看，高美醫專達到38%，臺灣觀光學院也達到32%，都是百分之十幾、二十以上的數字，我不曉得部長有沒有了解為什麼學生後來的轉退學率會來到這麼高呢？"],["潘部長文忠：我們自己要坦白地說，當然有一些學校也會受到限制，譬如以委員所提的臺灣觀光學院，這個學校因為位在花蓮，那我們要安置，你不可能把東部的孩子安置到太遠，你一定會以比較區域性的方式才能夠讓他就近入學，這確實是後續我們在處理上的一個挑戰。我也跟委員報告，當時在討論私校退場條例也有談一些配套措施，就是說學校這個整體、主體沒有辦法再經營的情況之下，能不能讓孩子有機會在他原來所在的區域，甚至在校區鄰近，這個我想我們再研議，因為當時在審條例的時候，大家有談到這樣的問題啦！我為什麼會以這個為例？如果真的太遠或什麼，可能有好多的因素來造成。"],["張委員雅琳：對，因為後來有做一些研究調查，外面的學界有做一些調查，其實學生就是因為受到剛剛講的，距離可能太遠了，或是他去新的學校沒有辦法提供給他相關的學習，他可能要補學分什麼的，變成他有一個很沉重的經濟壓力，所以為什麼我剛剛講了，我們一定要有一些規劃來幫助這些孩子，不然這些孩子可能就會離開。","我們再來看這一頁，部分區域將會缺乏技職教育，像我們現在看到雲林縣的環球科大會退場嘛！還有嘉義市，還有花蓮縣大漢技術學院。現在只剩下這些學校，當時我們在講教改的時候還有講到一個很重要的重點，就是在地的產業連結跟在地區域的人才培養，所以現在在這些區域可能就會發生人才空窗期的問題，會有斷層的問題。剛剛也有提到，我們可能幫他再找一些資源來協助，部長去年在教文會備詢的時候也有提到要規劃，但是目前都還沒有看到，所以我想要幫這些孩子來詢問一下，他們可以用校外專班的方式來進行嗎？如果以花蓮這個例子來講的話，他們可以用校外專班來進行嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：這個就是當時要討論的配套之一，因為這是一個過渡期，學生的學籍也許已經歸到鄰近的某個大學校院，但是上課的地點，因為剛才委員談到原因，我們有追蹤過，有不少是進修部的孩子，因為他本身就是一邊工作一邊……"],["張委員雅琳：又邊打工。"],["潘部長文忠：你要把他移到其他地方，他最後的選項可能乾脆就不要繼續學業了。"],["張委員雅琳：對，離開。"],["潘部長文忠：所以當時在談這件事情的時候，比較是說有沒有可能以就地，就是原來的部分……"],["張委員雅琳：對，但是這個在去年其實部長已經有在研議了嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：因為我們現在都會跟退場學校的學生做座談，主要是了解他們真正的需求，這個機制是可以啟動的，只要有需求啦！因為你要成一個專班，表示說有幾個是比較相同的情形。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我了解，所以目前的作法就是……"],["潘部長文忠：它就是可以搭配的措施啦！也就是說，如果留下來的孩子已經可以用專班的方式在原校地來繼續學業，我們覺得這個是比較必要的措施。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我現在要問一下，我就直接問，針對環球、大同跟大漢這些學校的學生，你們接下來會做一些座談，然後跟他們討論，如果他們有這個需求就可以開專班，對嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：好啊！委員，剛才副司長跟我提，大同技術學院他們已經談過，他們可以成專班了。"],["張委員雅琳：OK，好。"],["潘部長文忠：至於環球科大，還是以學生的需求啦！"],["張委員雅琳：對，所以現在跟環球科大談了嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：是，4月25日。"],["張委員雅琳：好，所以你們都有在安排。"],["潘部長文忠：對。"],["張委員雅琳：好，我主要就掌握這一個部分。再來，在宜花東部分，現在沒有相關的理工技職大學，因為現在留下來可能就是東華跟慈濟，那我自己是在想另外一個方向，因為我們還是有缺工的問題，企業其實要這些人才，可是好像沒有辦法具備相同的能力，教育部是不是可以跟勞動部的職業訓練中心來談一下，也許學生的選擇並不是想要升學，他想要去就業，是不是可以協助學生往這個方向去發展？"],["潘部長文忠：我們跟勞動部跨部會本來就有一個平台，我先跟委員報告一下，如果以東部這邊來說，因為當時慈濟跟慈濟科大要合併，我們的要求就是慈濟科大原來的科系入學管道一定要維持。"],["張委員雅琳：對，是。"],["潘部長文忠：目前它大概有681位技專校院的名額，包含四技、二技跟五專，當時我們是考慮到東部地區的孩子當有需求的時候，那就是一個選項，所以不會因為慈濟科大跟慈濟大學合併後就減少，我們也考慮過地方的技職體系一定要維持。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝部長。不好意思，我再問最後一個問題，現在因為出生人口數越來越少，這幾年我們其實持續地在減班，國小基本上就是海景第一排，少了非常多的學生，很多的學校都廢校。我想要講一個重點，因為在111學年度有發生一個狀況，就是學校在下學期突然說它廢校了，這個彰化的學校，那就會造成學生突然欸！我怎麼才開學心理就受到很大的衝擊，我馬上就要離開這個學校，然後家長要趕快去做接續的處理。我覺得小校的確也會有缺生的問題，教育部是不是也有幫助地方政府去推估未來的人數，或是有相關的指引告訴它可以有什麼樣子的配套？還有，你進行廢校的流程上，是不是有一些時程跟流程可以要求縣市政府去執行？有沒有這些相關的？"],["潘部長文忠：現在就是少子化，教育部有頒行一個國中國小的辦法，因為是義務教育，我們有一個學校要做整併甚至廢校的辦法，這個辦法裡面有非常清楚的規範，你地方政府要做這個決定前的相關作業，包含學生就學權益的維護、社區的溝通……"],["張委員雅琳：對，可是這個彰化的案例都沒有耶！"],["潘部長文忠：地方政府即使做了這個，也必須報到教育部做最後的核備，原因就是要做把關，所以這個議題，比如說縣市還沒有做到這一段，我們就會要求你必須去做，因為配套措施很重要。"],["張委員雅琳：對，沒錯，因為像當時，它已經講了，雖然有開一些形式上面的公聽會，但事實上就是沒有辦法改變這個結果，所以這個部分真的要請教育部積極地去督導。"],["潘部長文忠：是，因為當時設計為什麼中央主管機關還是要有一個備查的機制？就是怕便宜行事之後，學生的受教權益受影響。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["潘部長文忠：當然在地方，中小學終究是由地方政府在做主管，會尊重他們，但是那個過程跟要求我覺得是明確的。"],["張委員雅琳：所以目前都有相關的時程跟流程去要求。"],["潘部長文忠：有，相關的辦法我們再提供給委員參考，好不好？"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝部長。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-8","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","吳春城","范雲","張嘉郡","羅智強","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","廖偉翔","莊瑞雄","劉建國","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.654093750000001,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.965968750000002,"end":11.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.695343750000003,"end":15.454718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.62346875,"end":45.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.846593750000004,"end":47.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.73221875,"end":69.28596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.69096875000001,"end":75.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.32284375,"end":77.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.01034375,"end":91.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.21909375,"end":111.22034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.79284375,"end":92.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.69284375000001,"end":131.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.41534375,"end":134.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.20409375,"end":177.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.61221875,"end":142.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.57346875000002,"end":147.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.19346875000002,"end":148.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.35221875000002,"end":161.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.48846875,"end":185.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.49971875,"end":210.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.42659375000002,"end":195.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.77659375000002,"end":197.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.12159375000002,"end":203.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.24284375000002,"end":234.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.74534375000002,"end":262.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.65971875000002,"end":243.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.29221875000002,"end":245.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.32346875,"end":269.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.97721875,"end":264.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.13284375,"end":266.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.56721875,"end":268.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.78221875,"end":271.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.65096875,"end":272.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.32596875,"end":282.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.01284375,"end":278.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.16034375000004,"end":279.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.86034375,"end":282.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.70409375,"end":283.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.07534375,"end":301.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.90346875,"end":304.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.50221875,"end":307.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.30346875000004,"end":340.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.33471875000004,"end":324.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.56846875,"end":367.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.54534375000003,"end":353.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.80471875,"end":443.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.96596875,"end":443.45534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.41721875,"end":446.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.43409375000005,"end":444.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.96971875,"end":478.82534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.42784375,"end":457.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.54471875,"end":469.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.06721875000005,"end":471.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.18409375000005,"end":481.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.52971875000003,"end":497.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.71034375000005,"end":486.09846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.09409375,"end":487.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.65909375,"end":489.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.89534375000005,"end":489.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.05034375,"end":500.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.91909375000006,"end":517.1653437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.26284375,"end":515.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.79409375,"end":528.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.6784687500001,"end":533.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.7240937500001,"end":534.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.07409375,"end":538.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.0947187500001,"end":539.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.8159687500001,"end":539.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.53721875,"end":541.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.6340937500001,"end":576.0928437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.65096875,"end":541.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.1909687500001,"end":543.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.59096875,"end":574.9115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.82284375,"end":592.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.6240937499999,"end":578.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.1259687500001,"end":580.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.8715937500001,"end":588.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.9509687500001,"end":593.8115937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.3390937500001,"end":601.6922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":601.6922187499999,"end":602.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.01284375,"end":618.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.7040937500001,"end":607.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.07096875,"end":608.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.3984687500001,"end":621.6047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.4822187500001,"end":682.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":672.1453437499999,"end":672.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.13534375,"end":702.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":701.7778437500001,"end":704.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":703.3472187500001,"end":703.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":703.95471875,"end":722.0447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":712.2065937500001,"end":712.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":721.67346875,"end":733.4184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":723.4115937500001,"end":723.7490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":731.5790937500001,"end":750.4284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.5872187500001,"end":734.1272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":738.31221875,"end":738.9028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.1472187500001,"end":741.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":746.26034375,"end":746.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":750.4284687500001,"end":752.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":751.81221875,"end":756.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":753.58409375,"end":754.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":755.01846875,"end":756.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.65096875,"end":757.97159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.686,"end":11.367,"text":"謝謝教委,那我們有請潘部長部長好部長好,就是說我想剛剛前面當然很多人談這個410教改啊但我想要來做一個還原當你的410教改的主張其實是廣設公立大學20所公立大學讓這個知識可以普及嘛但跟我們後來實際上執行的其實是在做法上面有不一樣那也造成了這個達成目標略有不同"},{"start":37.919,"end":47.466,"text":"當年我們是二十所公立大學但是後來我們做的其實是所有的技專院校全面升格從我們的這個院校"},{"start":49.687,"end":74.087,"text":"人數從83年58所大專院校到後來我們其實達到了145總數來到159所所以這個其實就會造成我們現在要來處理這些大學退場的這個問題私校退場的問題但是其實我自己會覺得就算我們現在沒有處理大學坦白說以少子化的問題我們還是要來處理專科退場的這個問題所以不管怎麼樣我們現在就是來面對問題解決問題"},{"start":78.54,"end":91.378,"text":"我們來看一下就是說因為現在其實我們有這麼多的大學數可是我們其實要退場因為我們少子化的狀況我們要退場的學校應該不是只有目前的4所"},{"start":92.82,"end":92.92,"text":"張雅琳議員"},{"start":111.798,"end":130.152,"text":"不管怎麼樣我們可以看到我標籤這個紅色的黑色的方框在117年是15萬接下來即便是農年會有一些增加但是持續上在127年之後大概就是15萬以下所以基本上人數就是會減少那我們現在只有這四所學校嗎那我們如何來因應這個"},{"start":132.713,"end":158.983,"text":"4年之後的這個問題是跟委員報告剛才委員所提的這四所他已經不是專輔學校了已經就是正式停辦後面正在做後續有關停辦後的財產清點學生安置等等的目前大專校院我們以我們所說是要退場條例的標的那些指標目前大學校院是沒有專輔的學校但是呢"},{"start":160.284,"end":184.702,"text":"從這個聲援可以出來我們還是會嚴謹的去檢視目前在這些相關的私校那麼是不是會出現有關財務危機或影響教學品質等等的這些訊息我們會持續的掌握對這個因為其實我看一下這個數字又把私校的名額加起來就差不多這五萬就差不多是他的三分之一那"},{"start":186.576,"end":208.617,"text":"我想就是說我們應該還是要來盡快的去做更明確的掌握啦因為我覺得一個非常重要的東西是說因為你到後來才處理的時候這學生老師的衝擊都是非常大我們應該要有一些相關的預警作用或是提醒的方式讓這些你剛剛講到我們好像有做一些掌握嘛那我們現在針對這些掌握學校有沒有做一些預警跟提醒或是怎麼樣去做一些調整剛剛講的員額的調整等等的"},{"start":210.799,"end":233.338,"text":"委員報告因為現在從大院這邊通過我們執行私校退場條例後其實各大學已經更嚴肅面對了因為以往可能在這個上面大家也會覺得從學校能夠營運其實沒有那麼但是以現在來看教育部所掌握到的為什麼比如像大漢他為什麼需要董事會"},{"start":234.899,"end":235.54,"text":"在後續當然也不是只有學校"},{"start":261.66,"end":263.682,"text":"我覺得我們一定要有規劃不能夠就這樣子就過去了這是師生直接的影響"},{"start":283.474,"end":304.572,"text":"那再來就是說其實這些退場學校其實他們後來追蹤之後發現他們的退學率都很高欸轉退學率你看高美藝專達到了38%台灣觀光學院也達到了32%其實都是十幾二十%以上的一個數字那我自己後來我不曉得了解部長有沒有了解為什麼學生後來的這個轉退學率會達到這麼高呢"},{"start":305.89,"end":323.591,"text":"我跟委員報告那當然有一些學校我們自己要坦白的說也會受到限制比如以委員所提的台灣觀光學院的這個學校因為位在花蓮那花蓮我們能夠安置你不可能把東部的孩子安不到"},{"start":323.911,"end":324.952,"text":"在討論私校退場條例．"},{"start":340.74,"end":344.784,"text":"這個學校沒有辦法在整體主體沒有辦法在經營的情況之下能不能讓孩子有機會是在他原來所在的區域甚至校區鄰近做這個我想我們再研議因為當時在審條例的時候大家有談到這樣的問題這個也可能會是為什麼會以這個為例如果孩子真的太遠或什麼他有可能好多的因素會也造成"},{"start":368.024,"end":392.118,"text":"對,因為其實我覺得因為後來有做一些研究調查嘛就是有外面學界有做一些調查就是說其實學生就是因為受到剛剛講的距離可能太遠了或是他去新的這個學校沒有辦法提供給他相關的這些學習可能要補學分啊什麼變成他一個很沉重的經濟壓力所以我自己會覺得說為什麼我剛剛講的我們一定要有一些規劃幫助這些孩子不然這些孩子可能就會離開"},{"start":394.359,"end":418.828,"text":"再來就是說我們在看到這一頁就是說部分區域它將會缺乏技職教育像我們現在看到的這個雲林縣這個環球科大會退場加藝士、花蓮縣、大漢技術學院那現在只剩下這些學校那當時我們在講教改的時候還有講到一個很重要的重點就是在地的產業連結跟在地的區域的人才的培養所以我們現在在這些區域可能就會發生這個人才"},{"start":419.668,"end":420.129,"text":"﹑張雅琳"},{"start":446.553,"end":470.432,"text":"這個就是當時要討論的配套之一因為就是說因為這就是一個過渡期就是說學生的學籍也許已經歸到臨近的某個大學校院學籍但是上課的地點因為剛才我們談到原因我們有追蹤過有不少是進修部的孩子因為他本身就是一邊工作一邊你要把他移到其他地方他最後的選項可能乾脆我就不要繼續學業了"},{"start":471.653,"end":480.995,"text":"所以當時在談這件事情的時候就比較說有沒有可能以舊地就是原來的部分因為我們現在都會跟退場的學校的學生座談主要也了解到他們真正的需求這個機制是可以啟動的只要有需求因為你要成一個專班也表示說有幾個是比較相同的情形"},{"start":497.299,"end":524.164,"text":"我了解所以就變成說我們現在目前的做法就是可以搭配的措施啦因為我跟委員報告的意思也就是說如果這個留下來的孩子已經可以用專班的方式來救原校弟來進行他的繼續學業我們覺得這個是比較必要的措施所以我現在問一下我就直接問所以環球大同跟大漢這些學校的學生我們都已經我們接下來會做一些座談然後跟他們討論"},{"start":525.384,"end":525.744,"text":"對,所以我們現在跟環球科大談了嗎?是,是"},{"start":540.855,"end":564.837,"text":"4月25日所以我們都有在安排我主要就是掌握這一個部分那再來就是說因為其實在這個怡花東部分現在是也沒有相關的理工的技職大學因為他現在留下來可能就是東華跟這個所謂的慈濟那我自己在想另外一個方向因為剛剛我們其實還是有缺工的問題然後還有就是企業其實要這些人才可是好像沒有辦法具備這樣子相同的能力我們是不是可以跟勞動部的技職"},{"start":566.258,"end":573.801,"text":"職業訓練中心來談一下也許學生的選擇他並不是想要升學他想要去就業我們這部分是可以來協助學生往這個方向去發展如果我們跟勞動部跨部會我想這個本來就有一個平台如果學生我先跟我們報告一下如果以東部這邊因為當時慈濟跟慈濟科大要合併我們的要求就是他原來的慈濟科大的科系入學管道一定要維持"},{"start":594.451,"end":620.23,"text":"目前他大概有681位的這個技專校院的名誉包含四季二季跟五專這個就是當時我們考慮到以東部地區的孩子當有需求的時候他就是一個選項所以不會因為慈濟科大跟慈濟大學合併後就減少了這個也我們考慮過這個地方的技職體系一定要維持好謝謝部長那BOSS我再問一個最後一個問題就是說"},{"start":622.523,"end":645.414,"text":"我們現在因為我們就是出生人口數是越來越少那這幾年我們其實持續的在減班啦那國小基本上就是在海景第一排就是少了非常多學生很多學校都廢校啊那我想要講一個重點就是說今年其實有發生一個狀況就是說11學年度抱歉11學年度其實有發生一個狀況就是說我們學校在下學期突然就說它廢校了"},{"start":646.114,"end":669.69,"text":"這個張嬅的學校那就會造成學生突然我怎麼才開學我就要做這個心理很大的衝擊馬上我就要離開這個學校然後家長要趕快去講去做接續的一些處理那我自己會覺得說我們其實因為這的確是小校也會有這樣子像剛剛講的這個缺生的問題我們是不是也有幫助地方政府去推估未來的一些人數然後或是不是也會有告訴他們你相關的一些"},{"start":670.37,"end":672.272,"text":"教育部有班型一個國中國小因為是義務教育有一個學校如果要做整併甚至廢校的這個一個辦法"},{"start":692.732,"end":720.987,"text":"這辦法裡面有非常清楚的規範你地方政府要做這個決定前的相關的作業包含學生的就學潛意的維護社區的溝通可是從這個彰化的案例就是都沒有最後地方政府即使做了這個也必須到到敲一步做最後的核備原因就是要做這個把關所以這個議題我們當然比如說你需要根本縣市還沒有做到這一段我們就會要求你必須去做因為比如說配套措施很重要"},{"start":721.947,"end":749.949,"text":"對沒錯因為像當時就是說因為他已經講了那雖然有開一些形式上面的公聽會啊但事實上就是沒有辦法改變這個結果啊所以這部分真的要請教育部積極的去督促是因為當時設計為什麼要中央主管機關還是要有一個被查的就怕便宜形式之後學生的受教權益受影響當然在地方中小學終究是由地方政府在做主管在尊重他們但是那個過程跟要求我覺得是明確的"},{"start":750.469,"end":750.489,"text":"謝謝部長 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151280","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151280","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627bf534682382aaf1bf65493343f37da33c5dab72e655c1c945b23da5efbb1608e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:35:42 - 11:48:16","影片長度":"00:12:34","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員黃健豪等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條及第二百八十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（七）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（九）、（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":754,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:48:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:35:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":963,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時36分）麻煩請次長、副秘書長。"],["主席：請次長、副秘書長。"],["吳委員宗憲：還有衛福部的司長。"],["主席：還有衛福部司長。"],["吳委員宗憲：三位早安。我現在主要是要跟三位提到，依據這段時間的新聞報導，剛才傅崐萁總召也提到類似東西，就是在這段時間內，其實兒虐案件持續增加。依據衛福部的統計，去年兒少通報事件已經突破12萬件，比111年成長了2成。從這個數據上來看，不管是哪個年齡層，數據都是增加的。","我把數據給大家看一下，先看一下這個數據。這段時間受虐兒童人數其實一直在增加，我想從這個數據比上就可以看得到。一樣地，從衛福部的資料來看，這段時間兒少通報事件也已經突破12萬件，也就是說比前一年度都還增加了2成，這個數據其實滿可怕的，其中兒少遭受家長不當虐待的事情更是增加了7成。我第一個想請教蔡次長，次長，108年修法的時候，法務部新聞稿上提到的第一點是加重刑責，第二個是在偵查方面加強對於6歲以下的司法相驗、對於6歲以下兒童都是強制進行檢察官的相驗。"],["蔡次長碧仲：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：所以，在事前預防上，我想你們跟警政、社政、醫療單位都有一些橫向聯繫。那我想請教你一個問題，在目前實務上，關於刑法第二百八十六條，最近這5年在起訴書裡面使用到這個條文的件數，不知道你們那邊有沒有數據？"],["蔡次長碧仲：有，有數據。跟委員報告，108年起訴了6件，109年15件、110年28件、111年39件、112年38件，而今年從1到2月有17件。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝。這是從起訴系統撈出來的資料嘛！"],["蔡次長碧仲：是起訴。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。","我手邊還有一件從裁判書類系統撈出來的資料，是司法院的資料，112年引用這個條文的只有64件。依照剛剛次長所告訴大家的數字，再加上每年兒少事件通報件數，比例是不是有一點離譜地低？"],["蔡次長碧仲：跟委員報告，關於第二百八十六條，我剛才報告的數據有的是涉及第一項，在第一項裡面有114件啦！利用第三項前段的有21件啦！用第三項後段的有8件。"],["吳委員宗憲：我的意思是這樣，我知道你說的涉及第幾項的有幾件，但我的意思是依據我剛剛給你們看的發生件數，再加上您剛剛說這段時間法務部使用第二百八十六條起訴的案件數，以及我這邊從司法院查到112年裁判書類引用的有64件，比例上其實非常低耶！即使是法務部起訴書裡用到第二百八十六條的比例也只有幾十件啊！"],["蔡次長碧仲：對。"],["吳委員宗憲：那跟全國比起來……"],["蔡次長碧仲：對啊！委員看出這裡面的差異了。因為凌虐跟受虐的概念是不一樣的，凌虐的部分才有到我們這邊來。"],["吳委員宗憲：好。那我的意思是這樣，如果現在刑法第二百八十六條中的兒少虐待罪在實務上使用的機率這麼、這麼低，那這個條文其實就變成放好看的。"],["蔡次長碧仲：沒有錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：會不會導致縱使加重刑責也只是成為執行成效很不彰的惡性循環呢？因為使用率非常低嘛！即使立法之後，兒少虐待事件也是不停地上升，所以條文好像沒有什麼幫助，加上使用率也這麼低，那我想請教一下，當初立這個法，到底期待它有什麼成效？"],["蔡次長碧仲：跟委員報告，當年的氛圍也像現在一樣，也就是第二百八十六條的修法背景總共有101年發生一起王昊案、108年又是虐童案頻傳，大院考量民情，所以啟動修法的動機都是這樣。","那我跟委員報告為什麼這些案件會呈現這樣的落差，因為對於凌虐案，大家大部分關切的要嘛就是致重傷，要嘛就是致死，其實這種案件相較於受虐數據來講，當然比例上會很少，所以我們才會說徒法不足以自行，除了該補充的，像剛才黃國昌委員也提到法院在實務上適用第二百八十六條可能性，這種法制上的盤整也要做到，這條法律才有意義嘛！否則要是加到死刑，結果用不到，反而會造成問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：我認同你這句話，不過麻煩部裡面也要思考一下這個點，就是這個條文的使用率這麼低。現在案件發生數愈來愈多，這條條文的使用率又這麼低，而且似乎效果不彰，也就是說縱使用這個條文加重刑責，還是一樣執行不彰啊！既然法務部也是這個小組成員之一，那你們是不是去研擬一下，看看法條上有沒有需要修正的地方？"],["蔡次長碧仲：沒有問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：不然若是沒有人用，條文再重也沒有意義嘛！"],["蔡次長碧仲：主席在當檢座的時候，其實各地檢就有婦幼專組，現在更是精進，婦幼專組都有長年擔任這項專業的檢察官，所以我們從一開始就跟衛福單位連結、有一個平臺，這部分特別跟委員報告。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，再麻煩法務部對這一條條文再注意一下。"],["蔡次長碧仲：沒問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：對於衛福部，我想請教一下。我剛剛提到，我在黃國昌委員詢答時也有提到，現在大家到底知不知道第二百八十六條第一項關於身心健全或發育受有妨害之適用情狀這項條文屬於非告訴乃論？大家到底知不知道？"],["郭副司長彩榕：基本上，去年雖然有一萬兩千多名調查之後屬於兒虐案件，但裡面大概有77案涉及刑事案件的偵辦，所以我們跟檢察官合作，這些案件就會進入司法流程。由於檢察官最後會用哪一條起訴這部分屬於檢察官的專業，我們大概沒辦法特別去……我們不會用哪一條移送，而是只要有兒虐涉及傷害或死亡的案件，我們絕對都會啟動與檢警這邊的合作機制。"],["吳委員宗憲：我必須講一點，就是我們要意識到沒有滿3歲的嬰幼兒其實不太會表達自己不安這種感覺嘛！他們其實表達不出來，也很難完整說明整個受害經過啊！而且很多時候發生傷害的空間就是在家中，外界的人也不得而知啦！所以很難被發現。他又還沒上學，也沒有管道，譬如說可以跟老師講、跟同學講，但他也沒有這些管道，所以我希望衛福部就這部分還是要加強宣導。尤其是告訴一些社工員或衛福部所屬相關公務員這項條文屬於非告訴乃論，告訴大家只要發現一些狀況一定要通報，好讓檢察官能夠介入調查。另外，就如同我剛剛說的，其實這些小朋友沒有對外求救的管道或能力，所以我還是希望國家建立一個比較綿密的安全網，以保護這些小朋友。","最後，我想請教司法院。對於司法院這邊我想請教一下，涉及第二百八十六條第一項的具體行為是什麼？因為依我看來，這項條文的規範其實有一點點模糊，「施以凌虐或以他法足以妨害其身心之健全或發育者」這部分有沒有比較具體的行為模式啊？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然，這條條文的立法理由裡面描述了什麼叫做凌虐，就是對於強暴、脅迫或其他違反人道的作為或消極不作為，不管是用肢體方式、語言方式，也不管次數、頻率，只要在其身體或精神上受到凌辱虐待的時候，讓他身體或精神上感覺到痛苦的時候都算是啦！當然，具體情形可能要看行為的態樣，但是構成要件掌握的範圍大致還滿廣的。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，針對這個部分，也麻煩司法院再跟各位法官宣導一下，因為不同法官對於行為模式認定不同，這項法律的規範其實又有點模糊，不同法官見解可能有很大的差距，對於司法信任度可能也會有一點影響。","我再重複一下剛剛我提到的未成年證人這個部分。最近割喉案還有其他幾個案子的當事人曾來找我，他們都共同提到一個問題，像是割喉案發生在學校，那些人都是未成年人，在場看到的同學也是未成年人，結果法官讓未成年人跟被告當庭，他們看得到對方，而且彼此也認識，其實對他們來說心理壓力非常大。我想司法院在推動國民法官制度的時候，對於國民法官因為審理案件可能造成的心理影響，司法院都已經替他們想到要為他們做心理輔導等等，這方面的制度都有嘛！那麼對於未成年人作為證人這部分，麻煩司法院也要加以法制化，不能倚賴每一個法官作不一樣的認定。有的法官可能對小孩子感受不大或是基於沒有小朋友等因素沒辦法有同理心，這時候在訴訟指揮上對未成年證人的保護就可能不夠恰當，所以這部分我還是希望能夠法制化。在法制化之前，至少也要能夠統一宣導一下。謝謝各位。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：我們依先前宣告休息5分鐘。","休息（11時48分）","繼續開會（11時59分）"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：現在開始開會。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-13","speakers":["吳宗憲","傅崐萁","廖偉翔","王育敏","徐欣瑩","陳超明","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","黃國昌","翁曉玲","黃健豪"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員徐巧芯等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員廖偉翔等19人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等20\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八\n十六條及第二百八十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員柯志恩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)\n委員陳超明等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.177843750000001,"end":6.021593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.709093750000001,"end":8.485343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.497843750000001,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.978468750000001,"end":12.974093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.615343750000001,"end":13.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.63221875,"end":15.184718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.91784375,"end":26.777843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.48659375,"end":30.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.773468750000003,"end":28.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.65909375,"end":32.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.85596875,"end":48.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.204718750000005,"end":61.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":62.400968750000004,"end":63.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.07159375,"end":76.05284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.10346875,"end":80.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.50346875000001,"end":83.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.44409375000001,"end":85.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.12721875000001,"end":88.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.77659375,"end":118.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.76346875,"end":119.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.79284375,"end":144.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.23221875000002,"end":143.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.16034375,"end":155.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.19221875000002,"end":156.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.10346875000002,"end":171.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.05909375000002,"end":171.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.07596875000002,"end":171.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.10971875,"end":171.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.24471875,"end":171.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.58221875,"end":172.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.55659375000002,"end":174.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.60284375,"end":174.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.75471875000002,"end":175.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.44221875000002,"end":181.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.97721875000002,"end":185.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.99346875,"end":186.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.37721875000003,"end":190.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.25409375,"end":192.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.27096875,"end":192.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.73471875,"end":201.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.44721875000002,"end":199.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":202.05846875,"end":224.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.43784375,"end":204.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.48534375000003,"end":225.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.56534375,"end":226.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.96971875000003,"end":232.53471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.78784375,"end":238.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.60534375,"end":248.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":250.35471875000002,"end":286.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.85221875000002,"end":253.64534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.73909375,"end":275.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.67909375,"end":280.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.39159375,"end":291.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.30596875000003,"end":294.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.51659375,"end":295.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.01846875,"end":296.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.03534375000004,"end":299.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.40659375,"end":296.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.42346875000004,"end":296.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.72721875,"end":296.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.03471875,"end":305.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.99159375,"end":306.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":306.00846875,"end":309.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.21096875,"end":306.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.90659375,"end":310.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.17659375,"end":311.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":312.52221875000004,"end":314.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.72034375000004,"end":314.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":314.61471875,"end":315.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":315.59346875,"end":317.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":317.17971875,"end":340.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.86659375,"end":323.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.67659375,"end":323.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.84534375000004,"end":324.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.02659375,"end":326.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.78534375000004,"end":329.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.18034375,"end":340.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.51784375,"end":340.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.97346875,"end":379.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.19096875,"end":381.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.11471875,"end":390.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.78846875000005,"end":411.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":410.97096875000005,"end":411.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.73034375000003,"end":411.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":411.96659375,"end":443.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.23659375000005,"end":412.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.87284375,"end":417.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.88971875000004,"end":418.14284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.65721875,"end":420.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.01159375000003,"end":421.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.59346875,"end":423.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.58471875000004,"end":425.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.08471875000004,"end":439.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.14346875,"end":441.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.69596875,"end":444.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.92346875000004,"end":462.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":460.16159375,"end":460.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":461.95034375,"end":462.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.35534375000003,"end":463.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":462.38909375000003,"end":462.40596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":462.43971875000005,"end":474.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.63346875,"end":465.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.03409375,"end":466.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":474.40409375,"end":478.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":478.52159375,"end":489.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.86159375000005,"end":516.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.9797187500001,"end":528.9272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":528.9272187500001,"end":537.3815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":537.8034687500001,"end":580.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":580.80096875,"end":603.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":603.73409375,"end":605.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":606.4340937500001,"end":607.1597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":607.4297187500001,"end":615.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.0359687499999,"end":636.6740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.18034375,"end":647.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.4740937500001,"end":655.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":656.2490937499999,"end":670.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":671.0147187500002,"end":680.2790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":680.5828437499999,"end":682.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":682.6922187499999,"end":684.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":684.9365937500002,"end":750.1584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":750.3103437500001,"end":751.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":752.58846875,"end":754.17471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.479,"end":32.53,"text":"條文刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會等20人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第17屆第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第19條條文修正草案．立法院第19條條文修正草案．立法院第20條條文修正�"},{"start":40.676,"end":56.096,"text":"三位早安我現在主要是要跟三位提到的就是我們依據這段時間的新聞報導那剛剛傅坤祺總召他有提到類似的東西就是"},{"start":57.057,"end":85.085,"text":"這段時間內其實額虐案件持續的在增加那依據衛福部的統計去年額哨通報事件已經突破12萬件那比111年成長了兩成那我們從這個數據上面來看其實不管哪一個年齡層它的那個數據都是增加的所以我們那個數據來給大家看一下"},{"start":86.172,"end":104.443,"text":"二）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13次全體委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13次全體委員會及法制委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委"},{"start":112.128,"end":118.014,"text":"其中而遭受到家長不當虐待的事情更是增加了七成。」"},{"start":119.877,"end":142.984,"text":"我先想請教蔡次長從108年修法的時候法務部新聞稿上面有提到第一個是加重刑責第二個是加強對於偵查方面對於六歲以下司法的相驗六歲以下兒童我們都是強制進行檢察官的相驗"},{"start":144.224,"end":145.605,"text":"刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":174.9,"end":178.504,"text":"這個跟委員報告108年起訴了6件10915件110281113911238件今年從1到2月有17件總訴總訴"},{"start":194.753,"end":195.733,"text":"條文修正草案案件事件通報件數"},{"start":224.582,"end":225.102,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案 。"},{"start":251.407,"end":274.939,"text":"我意思是這樣子我知道你說的那個第幾項有幾件但是我的意思是我們依據我剛剛給你們看的發生的件數再加上這段時間您剛剛說的法務部的起訴使用286條的案件數以及我這邊查到的司法院的112年的裁判書類引用的有64件"},{"start":275.759,"end":276.899,"text":"條文刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案"},{"start":300.103,"end":301.344,"text":"刑法二百八十六條條文修正草案"},{"start":315.692,"end":319.955,"text":"二）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．二）委員"},{"start":341.109,"end":355.098,"text":"根委員報告當然當年的這個氛圍也是像現在一樣也就是說在其實我們對二十二八六條的這個修法背景總共有在一百零一年他們又發生一個叫王浩案"},{"start":355.999,"end":360.201,"text":"三）委員黃健豪等19人擬具〈中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":382.125,"end":400.717,"text":"刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第十七條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第"},{"start":410.123,"end":420.771,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":441.346,"end":442.688,"text":"條文在那載重也是沒有意義嗎?"},{"start":462.948,"end":489.242,"text":"這再麻煩法務部對這一條文再注意一下那衛福部我想請教一下就我們剛剛其實我剛剛也有提到就是我剛剛在那個黃國昌委員群討的時候我也有提到那現在到底大家知不知道這個286這個是第一項這個身心健全發育受有防害之適用情況這個條文286這個是屬於非告訴奶論大家到底知不知道"},{"start":489.892,"end":504.519,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第十七條條文修正草案．立法院第十七條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條條文修正"},{"start":505.72,"end":509.123,"text":"條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":529.34,"end":549.708,"text":"我必須講一個就是我們要意識到這沒有滿三歲的這個嬰幼兒啊其實他們其實不太會表達自己不安的這種感覺嘛他們其實表達不出來他也很難去說說完整的說明一個整個受害的經過啊而且很多時候他發生傷害的這個空間就是在家中"},{"start":550.228,"end":565.813,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條條文修正"},{"start":576.576,"end":579.518,"text":"二）委員黃健豪等19人擬具〈中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":608.02,"end":622.433,"text":"事以凌虐或塌法足以妨害身心健全或發育者,這個有沒有一個比較具體的模式啊行為模式跟委員報告啦當然這一條的這個立法理由裡面是有講到說他把它描述什麼叫做凌虐他是說"},{"start":623.954,"end":646.643,"text":"對勇強暴脅迫或其他違反人道的作為或消極的不作為,不管是用基礎的方式或語言的方式,也不管它的次序頻率,只要對他的身體或讓他精神上有受到凌辱虐待的時候,讓他身體或精神上感覺到痛苦的時候,都算是。"},{"start":647.543,"end":652.267,"text":"條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期"},{"start":671.041,"end":677.283,"text":"條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":699.511,"end":705.372,"text":"條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會"},{"start":727.577,"end":735.603,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"}]}},{"id":"151279","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151279","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627b9df01fe0ecca72c068d0b55d8f96a4ec5dab72e655c1c9481d98ccfcd6d1fbb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"11:31:29 - 11:44:09","影片長度":"00:12:40","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":760,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:44:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:31:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":263,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（11時31分）謝謝主席。有請邱部長，謝謝。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：沈委員好！"],["沈委員伯洋：邱部長好！今天雖然是潛艦相關的一些問題要問，但是在這個前面我想有一個建議，因為我們前面做了這個的機密報告，到最後大家並沒有用機密質詢，都還是用公開質詢的方式，因為我們在看這個報告的同時，有時候會不太清楚到底哪一個部分是機密，哪一個部分不是機密，所以在接下來詢問的時候當然就會變得非常的困難，所以這個機密與否的標準不知道是否可以在下一次有這種相關機密報告的時候讓我們知道一下，這是一個小小的建議。","第二個，今天一直提到所謂2,800億的問題，我無意去討論這個數字到底是怎麼出來等等之類的，不過我們比較想要知道的事情就是因為一直以來都在討論這個到底有沒有舞弊、為什麼會有那麼多金錢、為什麼又上漲等等之類的，我覺得那有很多細節，其實對我們來講，我覺得最重要的事情反而是這種計算的公式是什麼，因為一旦有好的公式，能夠讓大家知道，然後說我們是依照什麼樣的公式去估算標準，也包含之後假設我們軍方的採購人員有專門在追這種成本、物料、市場這種物價的波動，他就可以說我的公式是這一個，我是這樣在追的，我因為這樣就估算了什麼數字，這一個對民眾的說明可能會更好，所以這是第二個建議。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：好。因為時間因素，所以我就跳過第一個，這個今天很多人問了，就是這一個3+2+2的生產計畫是否生變，我就不多問，我這邊想問的就是現在海鯤號已經準備好的話，我們人力的來源及訓練的規劃到底是什麼樣子，第一個當然就是剛剛也一直提到的留營率及編現比，我現在不想說，因為3月7日的業報裡面就有提到，我們現在整體的留營率大概78.5%，我現在想說，在這邊不一定需要一個確切的數字，這個是沒有意義的，但是我們的留營率及編現比這幾年波動的狀況大概是如何？"],["邱部長國正：跟委員報告，誠如剛剛委員有提到，有很多機密或者非機密很難界定，事實上，我們剛剛既然在這個機密會議當中報告，跟那個有關的一樣可以問，但是我們的答復可能會跟委員報告，等我們瞭解一下，我們私下派人去跟您做說明，這也是一個界定的方法，要把它界定很清楚，真的不容易，各有各的看法，這是第一個。","第二個，就是有關人員編現比的問題，以及將來海鯤號還有其他潛艦一旦出來以後，人員是怎麼來調配，我跟委員報告，任何一個建案不光只建一個東西而已，它同步建人員來源、人員訓練、訓練期程，以至於到剛才很多委員關切的後勤維保的問題，通通納在建案當中要做一個敘明，所以我們在這一方面有來源的規劃，到我這個地方，我一個整體的報告，我只跟委員報告一下，這個在建案當中都會列進去，要詳細部分的話，我想一樣可以請海軍立刻做一個簡單答復，或者到委員那裡去做……"],["沈委員伯洋：感謝，是否可以簡單的答復一下？謝謝。"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，我們現在全軍的留營率大概都是在百分之七十六到七十八之間，這個我們也持續在做，把留營率提升。我們潛艦部隊官兵的訓練，其實潛戰隊是一直努力在做的，每年都招考了合格的軍士官，他們也有一些岸置的支援部隊，他自己有個訓練流路，這個部分，我覺得我們是一直積極主動的態度，目前的人力我們逐步跟著後續的兵力調整也在做擴大的選、訓員跟相關的教育訓練，包含這些訓練跟對外到國外去軍售，都是有相關的流入，軍士官都有，這個我們也持續來努力，詳細的資料會提供必要的跟委員說明。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為我們在看大概幾年前海軍自己的學術月刊，一直提到潛艦兵力不足的問題，雖然現在是一定會去做編制，畢竟海鯤號都已經準備好了，但會不會這邊編了以後，結果導致哪邊的人又變更少，整體的問題對我們來講其實蠻困擾的地方在於，現在整體有點像是均貧的狀態，畢竟剛剛部長有提到我們開源的方式不太行，就只能節流，開源要進來的人不足，所以到底要怎麼樣去改善？我覺得當然有兩個問題，第一個是開源，第二個我想提到的是人為什麼會離開這件事。前面也有幾個委員一直提到，像這次也有自殺的案件，當然不是發生在這個方面，自殺的案件他還不是離開，是選擇自殺。但是對我們來講，現在比較重要的事情是，比如說，現在我有聽到他們的陳情是，希望大家在離開的時候能夠把聯絡方式給家人，讓家人能夠掌握行蹤。但是像這種方式還是有點治標不治本，因為他們之所以會有那麼多的壓力，很多還是在於他們的業務太多了，像剛剛有提到這個業務到底能不能夠簡化，以及內部長官交辦的事項他們覺得不合理。所以在這一方面，如果一直沒有辦法做到的話，就會變成大家一直會想要離開，這件事情我覺得應該是要被解決。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["沈委員伯洋：剛剛王定宇委員也有提到，馬文君委員剛剛也有提到一部分，到底我們要怎麼具體把這件事情解決，這可能是很重要的，因為人力夠的話，我們接下來才可以去談訓練。"],["邱部長國正：對，的確剛剛委員點到，還有委員講，開源節流，這個人我捏不出來，沒有就沒有，當然招募這些我要繼續做，就是開源，但我所謂節流，不是把人減少，是把人力要做的工作減少，事實上，我剛剛也跟幾位委員報告，這個工作以前一直在做，但我們現在檢討起來，我不怪我們年輕幹部推動不力，因為事實上是我們中高級幹部把他疏忽掉了，可能我們中高級幹部當初年輕也是這樣過來的，所以他覺得這沒什麼，他也這樣過來了。在這一方面，我要求我們中高級幹部要多放下身段往下走，要點到、看到，跟指導到，這才是一個務實的作法，我們這個工作會持續來做，因為它都是沒有停止的，今天這個教會了，明天新來的又來了，所以我也希望把它變成一個傳承、變成一個習慣，就是簡單扼要。坦白跟委員報告，因為當初很多幹部他受的薰陶可能有所不同，各有各的胃口，但我們持續往這方向努力，我要求我們幹部，這三年多來我做的都是讓他們知道，簡單、簡單、簡單，但很遺憾沒有辦法如期如質的完成。"],["沈委員伯洋：感謝部長，這是組織文化的一個很大的問題。","接下來這個比較小，這個是監察院的報告，我一直覺得監察院的報告有很高的重要性，各位可能也知道，最近國會改革被喊得如火如荼，也是在講我們立法委員的調查權，其實我們很多的調查都是監察院在做，但監察院有時候做調查會有一個問題，就在於它調查完之後後續到底如何，我們實在是沒有辦法去做追蹤，所以我覺得現在在這個質詢的殿堂上面很適合去做這種監察院的調查後續的追蹤。這一個是講到射擊相關的訓練，我在想會不會也是同一個問題，就是跟前面業務排擠有關，當你的業務不夠精簡的時候，就排擠到他需要去訓練的時間。因為這是2023年10月提出的，大概過了半年，不知道這件事情有沒有一些相關的改善方式跟報告能夠被提出來？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，剛剛委員講可能業務太多，以致於這些東西會延誤，不是講沒有關聯，但是有些許的關聯，這個問題出在哪裡呢？就是幹部久了以後就不用去督管，我們發覺很多軍中的工作，做了一半，到最後沒有了，什麼原因也沒有人管了。所以我一再強調，我們為什麼要把一個編組職掌表弄清楚、節點管制畫出來，經常要檢討。像剛才委員講的這個案子我們也要追，我要追的很簡單，海軍當初的案子是誰在處理，處理過程我要看到，要看到你怎麼處理，是每個月追、每一季追，或者根本就沒有追，這就是關鍵，沒有他做不到的，三年沒有按照週期來做射擊訓練，原因不是他忙到沒有空，現在國防部都在按照這個週期打靶，很簡單，禮拜一、禮拜二、禮拜五選一天，實在沒空，禮拜六見，一個禮拜三天也就弄完了。我想我比照的方法不是這麼硬邦邦，但這個方法是一定要有人管控，只要有人聞問，他就會走，如果沒有人聞問，不管再冠冕堂皇，到最後一樣就停止了，就被人詬病。委員，我們要努力，在這幾年當中，我們在這一方面雖然很努力，可我不可否認的還有一些不夠周延的地方，所以我想給幹部也是一個警惕，大家共同來努力。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，後續針對這件事情怎麼改善，是否可以再來我辦公室說明？因為我覺得這還蠻重要的。"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["沈委員伯洋：最後因為只剩一點點時間，關於自產跟進口的訓練我可能下一次再問，我想問一下通訊相關的，因為我現在在看中國對潛艦指揮通信的一些研究，當然我有時候會認為他們是有點講大話，但是無論如何，這一次成都的電子科技大學有說，針對磁性、平移聲學的射頻、光/熱聲，還有中微子跟量子通訊等等的技術，去做跟潛艦相關通訊的溝通，因為成都電子科技大學雖然隸屬於教育部，但它最主要是被列入了美國政府的實體清單，它其實就是解放軍非常重要的一個駭客招募的地點。","他們發展這樣的一個技術，對我們來講的確是重要的，知己知彼嘛！所以我想問一件事情，我們常講作戰靠指揮，指揮靠通信，第一個，目前我們通信的加密程度是如何？這個如果有不方便回答的，我們可以之後再說；第二個，我覺得比較重要的是，潛艦本來就比較難即時接收資訊，這是一定的，問題在於說，如果它在沒辦法接受指令跟資訊的時候，它的Protocol是什麼？有沒有已經建立好了，畢竟現在我們的潛艦海鯤號都已經ready了，所以關於第二個，它接收命令以及沒有在接收命令的那個Protocol是長什麼樣子？還有跟盟友，我們剛剛講的是縱向的，那麼橫向的跟其他的盟友相關的通訊協定是長什麼樣子，有沒有在積極的做準備？我比較想知道這方面的問題。"],["邱部長國正：我初步跟委員報告，我們國軍做任何事情跟計畫，一定有主計畫還有一個附帶的，這代表他考慮的周延不周延，細節部分當然我沒辦法說明，但我也請海軍同仁或資通電部門到委員那邊去跟您詳細做個報告。假使連這個都還沒有準備，連這個Protocol都還沒有，那講起來有點離譜，可能做的有點不夠周延，但最起碼概念要有，一個主計畫一定有很多子計畫來支應這個主計畫的推動，這個我們軍中任何一個層級單位、主官應該會想到這一點。"],["沈委員伯洋：剛剛那兩件事情我們就來做後續的追蹤，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請洪申翰委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-13","speakers":["馬文君","林楚茵","黃仁","陳永康","羅美玲","王定宇","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","李柏毅","洪孟楷","羅智強","林憶君","王鴻薇","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢（含秘密會議）","agenda_id":"1133001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.41471875,"end":2.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.67909375,"end":11.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.42159375,"end":60.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.000343750000006,"end":143.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.93659375000001,"end":168.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.38846875000002,"end":218.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.51596875,"end":220.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.67159375000003,"end":266.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.80971875,"end":227.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.96159375000002,"end":255.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.90909375,"end":266.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.94284375,"end":267.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.02721875000003,"end":267.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.04409375,"end":267.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.14534375,"end":267.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.55034375,"end":369.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.90346875,"end":356.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.43721875,"end":436.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.95659375,"end":422.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.77284375000005,"end":437.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.88659375000003,"end":460.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.53284375000004,"end":461.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.66784375000003,"end":461.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.20784375000005,"end":461.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.54534375000003,"end":516.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.82784375,"end":534.7490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.95159375,"end":550.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.5947187500001,"end":552.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.5690937500001,"end":575.3503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.2278437500001,"end":578.1684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.5903437500001,"end":587.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.3315937500001,"end":588.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.64784375,"end":589.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.33534375,"end":613.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.40346875,"end":716.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":716.64471875,"end":754.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.9678437500002,"end":755.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":755.01846875,"end":755.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":755.1028437500001,"end":759.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":758.3090937500001,"end":758.68034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":0.351,"text":"請邱國正報告"},{"start":10.74,"end":34.453,"text":"沈委員好好 沈部長好那今天雖然是潛艦的這個相關的一些問題要問那但是在這個前面我想因為我們前面做了這個機密的報告但是到最後大家並沒有用機密質詢大家都還是用公開質詢的方式所以呢就是不知道未來就是因為我們在看這個報告的同時有時候會不太清楚到底哪一個部分是機密哪一個部分不是機密"},{"start":34.873,"end":59.575,"text":"所以在接下來詢問的時候當然就會變得非常的困難所以呢這個機密與否的這個標準不知道是否可以在下一次有這種相關機密報告的時候可以讓我們知道一下這是一個小小的建議那第二個就是剛剛因為今天一直提到這個所謂2800億的問題那我無意去討論說這個數字到底是怎麼出來的等等之類的不過我們比較想要知道的事情就是說因為現在有這個"},{"start":61.056,"end":83.554,"text":"一直以來就在討論說這個到底有沒有舞弊啊為什麼會有那麼多金錢啊為什麼又上漲啊等等之類的我覺得很多細節啦那其實對我們來講我覺得最重要的事情反而是這種計算的公式是什麼因為一旦有好的公式能夠讓大家知道然後說我們是依照什麼樣的公式去估算標準也包含比如說我們之後比如說我們假設假設我們在軍方的採購人員有專門是專門在追這種成本物料市場的這種物價的一個"},{"start":90.58,"end":90.86,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":120.565,"end":143.662,"text":"第一個當然就是因為剛剛也一直提到這個流盈率跟邊線比那我現在不想說因為3月7號的夜報裡面就有提到說我們現在整體的流盈率大概78.5%那我現在想說在這邊我們不一定需要一個確切的數字這個是沒有意義的但是就是我們這個流盈率跟邊線比這幾年它的這個波動的狀況大概是如何"},{"start":144.98,"end":168.046,"text":"我跟委員報告陳吳剛委員有提到有很多機密或者非機密很難界定事實上我們剛剛竟然在這個機密的會議當中報告的那跟那個有關的一樣可以問但是我們的答覆會可能跟委員報告了解一下我們私下派人去跟您做說明這也是一個界定的一個方法那把它界定很清楚真的"},{"start":169.434,"end":169.554,"text":"主席"},{"start":188.154,"end":217.16,"text":"他見到同步這些人員來源人員訓練訓練期程以至於到剛才很多委員關切的後勤維保的問題通通納在建案當中要做一個序名所以我們在這一方面他有來源的一個規劃到我這個地方我一個整體的報告的話我只跟委員報告講這個在建案當中都會有列進去要講詳細部分的話我想一樣可以請海軍立刻做一個簡單答覆或者到委員會去做"},{"start":217.58,"end":244.641,"text":"好,感謝。是否可以簡單的答封一下?謝謝。報言,就是我們現在全軍的我們的流勻率大概都是在76%到78%之間。那這個我們也持續在做,把這個流勻率能夠來做提升。那我們潛艦部隊的官兵的訓練,其實他一直,潛戰隊是一直努力在做的。他也都每年都招考了合格的軍士官。那他們也有一些暗示的支援部隊,他自己有個訓練流入。"},{"start":246.342,"end":266.439,"text":"這個部分我覺得我們積極主動太推那目前的人力我們在逐步的會跟著後續的兵力調整也在做擴大的選訓員跟相關的教育訓練包含這些訓練跟對外到國外去軍售都是有相關的整個的流量軍事關隊這個我們持續來努力詳細資料會提供必要的跟委員說明謝謝"},{"start":267.642,"end":295.953,"text":"那這個之後在因為這個我們在看這一個大概在幾年前這一個也是海軍這個學術自己的月刊就一直提到說這個潛艦是兵力不足的問題那雖然現在是一定會去做編制這是因為畢竟這個海關號都已經準備好了但會不會說這邊編了以後結果又導致哪邊的人又變更少那整體的問題對我們來講其實還是會蠻困擾的地方是在於說現在整體有點像是均貧的狀態因為畢竟我們現在剛剛部長有提到我們開源的方式"},{"start":296.493,"end":296.653,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":324.099,"end":341.93,"text":"現在我有聽到他們的陳情是說希望大家在離開的時候能夠把這個聯絡方式能夠給家人然後讓家人能夠掌握行蹤但是像這種方式有點還是治標不治本因為他們之所以會有那麼多的壓力很多還是在於說他們的業務太多了"},{"start":342.21,"end":368.357,"text":"像剛剛有提到這個業務到底能不能夠簡化然後以及說呢在這個內部的這個長官交辦的事下他可能覺得不合理所以在這一方面呢如果一直沒有辦法做到的話就會變成說大家一直會想要離開嘛這件事情我覺得應該是要被解決所以是希望說能夠剛剛其實定宇委員也有提到那那個馬文俊委員剛剛也有提到一部分就是說到底我們要怎麼具體把這件事情解決這可能是很重要的因為人力夠的話我們接下來才可以去談訓練嘛"},{"start":370.996,"end":389.094,"text":"對,這的確,剛剛委員點到,還有學委員講,開源節流,我講這個人,我捏不出來,沒有就沒有,但當招募這東西我要繼續做,就開源。但節流,我所謂節流,不只要把人減少,把人力要做的工作把它減少。"},{"start":389.674,"end":405.051,"text":"事實上我剛跟局委員報告這工作以前早期一直在做但我們現在檢討起來我不怪我們年輕幹部推動不利因為事實上是我們中高級幹部你把他疏忽掉了可能我們中高級幹部他當初年輕有這樣過來的"},{"start":406.332,"end":432.016,"text":"他已經這樣過來了所以我就講在這一方面我要求我們中高級幹部要多放下身段往下走要點到跟看到要指導到這才是一個務實的做法我們這工作會持續來做因為它都是沒有停止的你今天這個交會了明天這個新來又來了所以我講我也想把它變成一個傳承變成一個習慣"},{"start":435.037,"end":459.929,"text":"簡單而要坦白跟委員報告因為當初很多幹部他受的薰陶有所不同各有各的胃口我們持續往這方面努力我要求我們幹部這三年多來我做的都讓他們知道簡單簡單簡單但是很遺憾沒有辦法如期如質的完成"},{"start":461.73,"end":474.385,"text":"感謝部長,這是組織文化的一個很大的問題接下來這個是一個,這個比較小這個就是說因為監察院的報告我一直覺得監察院報告有很高的重要性就是因為各位可能也知道最近國會改革被喊得如火如荼"},{"start":475.586,"end":495.047,"text":"每次來講說我們立法委員的調查權那其實我們很多的調查都是監察院在做但監察院有時候做調查有時候會有一個問題就在於說他調查完之後呢後續到底如何我們實在是沒有辦法去做追蹤啦所以我覺得現在在這個質詢的這個殿堂上面是很適合來去做這種監察院的調查後續的追蹤"},{"start":496.208,"end":516.323,"text":"這個他是講到就是說這個涉及相關的訓練但我在想會不會也是同一個問題就是跟前面業務排擠有關就是說當你的業務不夠精簡的時候他就排擠到他需要去訓練的時間那不知道這件事情因為這是2023年10月大概半年那有沒有一些相關提出的一個改善的方式跟報告能夠被提出來"},{"start":516.863,"end":534.305,"text":"我跟委員報告,剛才委員講說可能業務太多,也是因為延誤,不是講沒有關聯,但是有些許的關聯,這問題出在哪裡呢?就是幹部久了以後就沒有去督管,我們發覺很多軍中工作,做了一半都沒有了,什麼原因?"},{"start":535.126,"end":535.366,"text":"沈伯洋"},{"start":552.908,"end":574.99,"text":"你怎麼處理每個月追每季追或者根本就沒有追這就是關鍵沒有他做不到的三年沒有按照週期來做射擊訓練這原因啊不是他忙到沒有空我在國防部都在按照週期打靶我很簡單禮拜一禮拜二禮拜五你選一天實在沒空禮拜六見"},{"start":576.417,"end":595.491,"text":"一個禮拜也要三天也就弄完了我講我比照這個方法不是那麼硬邦邦但這個方法就一定要有人管控只要有人問問他就會走他如果沒有人問問你力量再冠冕堂皇到最後一樣就停止了停止就變詬病了"},{"start":597.772,"end":598.092,"text":"最後因為只剩一點點時間"},{"start":623.377,"end":623.638,"text":"﹚沈伯洋"},{"start":638.921,"end":664.619,"text":"這次這個電子課成都的這個電子科技大學他有說他針對這個磁性平行升學的射頻光熱的這個還有中微子跟量子通訊等等的一個技術去做這樣的跟潛艦相關的通訊的溝通那因為成都電子科技大學他是雖然隸屬於教育部但他其實最主要還已經被列入了這個美國政府的實體清單他其實就是解放軍非常重要的一個駭客招募的地點"},{"start":665.399,"end":686.859,"text":"所以這個對我們來講他們發展這樣的一個技術對我們來講的確是重要的知己知彼所以這邊我想問的一個事情是在於說我們常講作戰靠指揮指揮高通信那目前我們通信第一個它的加密程度是如何那這個如果有不方便回答的我們可以之後再說第二個我覺得比較重要的是潛艦本來就比較難即時接收資訊這是一定的"},{"start":687.999,"end":716.224,"text":"問題在於說如果他在沒辦法接受這個指令跟資訊的時候他的那個protocol是什麼有沒有已經建立好了因為畢竟我們潛艦現在就已經海關號都已經ready了嘛所以關於第二個這個他接受命令以及沒有在接受命令的那個protocol是長什麼樣子還有跟盟友就是跟其他的我們剛剛講的是縱向的橫向的跟其他的盟友通訊相關的一個協定是長什麼樣子有沒有在積極的做準備我比較想知道這方面的問題"},{"start":716.844,"end":735.889,"text":"我跟委員報告,我們國軍做任何事情的計劃,它一定有主計劃還有一個附帶的。這代表它考慮周延不周延。這細節部分我沒辦法說明,但我也請海軍同仁或直通電部門到委員會去跟您詳細做個報告。"},{"start":736.869,"end":737.97,"text":"希望剛才那兩件事情我們就來做後續的追踪謝謝部長 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"151278","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151278","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627088d082fae3cdcb5cf744a9f110b3b1fc5dab72e655c1c94b5c8fdb204d45c695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:27:34 - 11:40:53","影片長度":"00:13:19","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":799,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:40:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:27:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":685,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時27分）主席，我請金管會主委、財政部長，還有我們今天來的公營行庫，是不是……"],["主席：有請黃主委、莊部長。所有公股行庫嗎？"],["王委員世堅：公股行庫董事長。"],["主席：所有董事長請起立。"],["王委員世堅：董事長站位置上好了，站位置上，好嗎？麻煩你站著，我等一下馬上要問。"],["主席：先坐著吧，有需要的時候再站起來就好。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：黃主委、部長，我所瞭解到的這三大租賃公司中租迪和、和潤跟裕融，他們不但公司都已經股票上市，而且他們貸款給我們社會大眾的其實並不是來自於他們的資金，他們是大量的、大金額的跟我們銀行體系借的，我大概估計，各方面的資料加起來大概五千億。他向我們的銀行體系借了五千億低利貸款，然後放高利貸給我們全體需要的民眾，這才會引起這一次我們會議要討論的主題。這三大租賃公司，我姑且稱之為「薯條三兄弟」啦，關於這薯條三兄弟，我就問那38家銀行哪一些銀行借給他，讓他幹盡這種壞事，結果金管會銀行局答復我，因為民營銀行我們管不著，好啊！所以我們今天就請公營行庫來。公營行庫是個示範，是金融的代表，他要做很多很多的模範給全國的銀行看。莊部長，剛好這八大公營行庫董事長、總經理都是你任命的，我們國家對待這八大公營行庫董事長、總經理，我們待他們不薄，他們每年薪資待遇都很高，因為我們尊重他們的專業，我們希望他們能夠全心全力把我們公營行庫做好，這個待遇我們都沒話講，但是他們做錯事情、該打屁股的時候，部長，你可別心軟、可別手軟。","我要請問這八大公營行庫，就我剛剛提的，薯條三兄弟向銀行借了5,000億，我請問你們八大公營行庫，我請八位董事長站起來一下好嗎？我請問你們公營行庫，第九位中國輸出入銀行，一開始我沒把你併入，抱歉！好，九大。我請問你們，有貸款給這三大租賃公司的請舉手。","通通有，天啊！各位董事長，我請問你們，銀行貸款給借款方，最重要就是3C（信用、抵押品、還款來源），不是嗎？信用、抵押品就不談了，我就請問你，這三大租賃薯條三兄弟，他們是放高利貸的，結果你借款給他們，他們的還款來源是來自於高利貸，你們知道嗎？我請問你們知道嗎？知道的請舉手。你們都不知道？所以你們也是被薯條三兄弟騙了？你們跟我們千千萬萬的受害民眾一樣，你們也被騙了，是不是？你們把來自於社會大眾辛苦的存款、血汗錢借貸給這些不良的租賃公司，讓他去放高利貸。","我上回質詢部長、主委的時候就說，這三大租賃公司叫做有牌的地下錢莊。天啊！這麼優質的九大公營行庫們，你們竟然還默默的、私下的把錢借給他們，這叫助紂為虐，不是嗎？他們的還款來源是來自借款人的血汗錢，他們變相向那些借款的民眾吸血，以高利貸來還給你們。","第二點，我現在請問你們九位董事長，你們有錢借給這三大租賃公司，表示你們認定了是一個合理的消費貸款，不是嗎？那你們為什麼不直接把錢借給需要的民眾呢？為什麼？對一般民眾這麼摳，對這三家租賃公司就來個一問三不知！剛剛你們都沒舉手，通通說你們不知道他是放高利貸的，我不相信，是你們縱容他們的，不是嗎？為什麼不把資金直接放款給需要的民眾，為什麼？帶頭的臺銀金控、臺灣銀行董事長呂董事長，請你回答，為什麼？有需要資金的民眾這麼多，尤其是青年朋友們，為什麼九大公營行庫不把資金直接融資給需要的民眾們，而是借款給這三大租賃公司去放高利貸，為什麼？呂董事長，為什麼？"],["呂董事長桔誠：委員好。跟委員報告，所有的租賃公司也扮演一定的金融中介的角色，事實上據我們所知，這裡面百分之九十五的資金都不是大家所顧慮的那些所謂BNPL的放款，而是他有……"],["王委員世堅：我螢幕上放這麼多，很快速，這些怎麼都不是呢？你明知道嘛！"],["呂董事長桔誠：就是說，這個BNPL大概占全體的五個percent，大多數還是在所謂的機器設備或是車輛之類的。"],["王委員世堅：車貸就占了一半之多，你如果看這金額……"],["呂董事長桔誠：車貸……"],["王委員世堅：占了絕大多數！今天我們談到民間的金融公司，其實最主要我們談的是這三大，這三大就占了百分之九十，車貸這麼大的比例金額，你們竟然不曉得！那我就問，你有錢借他們，怎麼不借給民眾？你答復我這一點嘛！借給民眾有這麼困難嗎？"],["呂董事長桔誠：我想每個銀行的業務有它的取向，以銀行而言，能夠做的能量就是……","至於車輛的部分，據我所理解……"],["王委員世堅：車輛占2,860億，我實在不想回答你這個金額，為什麼？因為時間有限，你把數字先看清楚了再說，我還說臺銀是模範生，BNPL是280億沒錯，車輛占了總融資6,700億的四成，2,800億；另外法人融資占了一半，3,560億。"],["呂董事長桔誠：您是在講整個市場規模，但是……"],["王委員世堅：對啊、對啊！"],["呂董事長桔誠：但是臺銀大概是……"],["王委員世堅：這拜九大公營行庫之賜，你們通通貸款給他們啊！"],["呂董事長桔誠：這八大公股銀行大概是一千三百出頭億，臺銀本身大概一百七、八十億，而裡面大概只有五個percent是可能有涉及BNPL。"],["王委員世堅：對啦，我知道你貸得不多啦！140億對你們而言就只有一點點。"],["呂董事長桔誠：不、不、不，還是很多。"],["王委員世堅：沒錯，是另外這八大的金額比較大，但是你是帶頭的，所以我問你，好不好？我問你的問題你一直沒回答我，為什麼不直接貸款給民眾？你想清楚再回答我啦！好不好？你私下弄個報告給我，你請回。"],["呂董事長桔誠：我私下再來跟你面對面說明，好不好？"],["王委員世堅：好，面對面說明。"],["呂董事長桔誠：好，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：數字的部分，我們隔空這樣談都很清楚了啦！面對面時，我希望你給我正面的答復……"],["呂董事長桔誠：委員，我再去看你，然後說明……"],["王委員世堅：希望我們公銀行庫能夠善待需要貸款的民眾們，直接貸款給他們，不需要透過你剛剛講的，你說這薯條三兄弟是金融的仲介，貸款就貸款，大家直來直往就好了，不需要ブローカ（掮客）啦！ブローカ還是吸血的，縱容他們的存在，不是這樣嗎？董事長，我尊重你，你請回。"],["呂董事長桔誠：理解，我們再跟你報告，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：部長、主委及幾位董事長，你們知不知道這三大的手法有多惡劣？他們現在的貸款，除了汽車貸款以外，他們另外其他的融資就假借商品，假借根本不存在的東西，我舉例比方說，有的餐廳要跟他們融資，他們不能直接貸款給這家餐廳，他就說，你跟我打買賣合約，假的合約喔！買賣什麼？既然是餐廳，不然買賣和牛好了。要借200萬，還要跟他先打一個合約說，我跟你買253萬的和牛，但根本沒有那個東西，是假的！然後第二層皮是什麼？就來了，53萬先扣掉，那是利息，再來80萬的保證金，再來10萬的手續費，和牛根本是假的、沒一個蹤影，這家需要貸款的餐廳就先被扒了三次皮啦！它本身就是那條和牛，被剝了三次皮！這個假的，這樣的貸款總共存在多少？你們去查，我剛剛跟你們講的，借給這些法人融資的，通通是以這樣子的方式。","所以主席，我最後再提一句，部長、金管會和九位董事長，你們要注意這樣惡質的租賃公司，他們規避了三大法規：第一個、公司法，因為不能借錢給其他個人；第二個、規避了民法，利息超過百分之十六，契約應該無效；第三個、規避了刑法的重利罪。規避了這三大法規、重大的法律，結果金管會、財政部跟九大公營行庫的董事長、總經理，全然不知還互踢皮球，這就是臺灣民眾的悲哀！我認為這件事情你們沒有好好深思、反省的話，愧對你們的職務。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員的質詢。","接著請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-8","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","王世堅","顏寬恒","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","羅明才","林楚茵","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","吳春城","陳亭妃","王定宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就\n「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.050968750000001,"end":7.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.77659375,"end":8.215343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.92409375,"end":10.324718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.746593750000002,"end":11.640968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.814093750000001,"end":11.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.742218750000003,"end":12.552218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.007843750000003,"end":13.379093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.615343750000001,"end":16.872218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.74971875,"end":18.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.95596875,"end":21.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.39034375,"end":23.301593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.191593750000003,"end":26.035343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.17034375,"end":27.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.75659375,"end":28.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.80284375,"end":30.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.65909375,"end":33.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.89909375,"end":34.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.06784375,"end":37.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.89034375,"end":38.759093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.85596875,"end":40.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.34096875,"end":42.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.24784375,"end":43.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.424718750000004,"end":46.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.08284375,"end":46.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":48.563468750000006,"end":48.580343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.580343750000004,"end":50.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.938468750000006,"end":61.219718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.46846875000001,"end":63.143468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.36284375,"end":70.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.61909375,"end":72.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.69471875,"end":77.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.49971875,"end":85.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.41409375,"end":91.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.40471875,"end":97.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.08721875,"end":101.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.58471875000001,"end":103.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.50846875,"end":105.14534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.33471875000001,"end":117.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.46409375,"end":118.18971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.94909375,"end":126.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.32346875,"end":128.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.10784375,"end":130.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.08221875,"end":131.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.88784375,"end":134.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.52471875,"end":135.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.44846875000002,"end":139.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.72221875,"end":140.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.70096875000002,"end":142.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.02971875,"end":143.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.07596875000002,"end":144.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.88596875000002,"end":145.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.74659375000002,"end":151.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.42909375000002,"end":155.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.65221875,"end":156.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.15409375000002,"end":159.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.56284375,"end":163.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.46534375000002,"end":170.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.32909375,"end":173.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.62409375000001,"end":175.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.32409375,"end":177.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.46721875,"end":179.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.80034375000002,"end":182.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.66909375,"end":185.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.07784375,"end":187.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.60909375,"end":192.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.08096875,"end":195.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.32096875000002,"end":196.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.16471875000002,"end":199.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.57721875000001,"end":205.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.55971875,"end":208.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.41596875000002,"end":210.98534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.22159375,"end":213.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.55034375000002,"end":214.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.68096875,"end":215.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.98034375,"end":216.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.51159375,"end":219.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.11034375000003,"end":224.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.24471875,"end":225.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.99096875,"end":229.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.83034375000003,"end":231.70784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.53409375,"end":237.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.66471875000002,"end":238.40721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.28471875000002,"end":240.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.06909375,"end":242.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.18284375000002,"end":244.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.93346875,"end":246.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.18221875,"end":247.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.90346875,"end":249.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.81471875000003,"end":251.01284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.60346875000002,"end":252.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.81409375,"end":255.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.26096875,"end":257.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.84284375000004,"end":270.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.80284375,"end":272.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.82784375,"end":274.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.71784375000004,"end":276.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.55284375,"end":279.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.25284375,"end":283.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.92721875,"end":291.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.21721875000003,"end":297.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":297.65534375000004,"end":298.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.17409375,"end":302.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.00471875,"end":304.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.43471875,"end":307.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.71284375000005,"end":308.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.44659375000003,"end":312.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.28159375,"end":316.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.77034375,"end":318.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.09909375,"end":321.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.52909375,"end":324.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.02659375,"end":326.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.76034375,"end":329.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.54471875,"end":331.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.68784375,"end":335.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.64909375,"end":339.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.96096875,"end":341.56409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.67784375,"end":345.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.78284375000004,"end":348.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.44471875000005,"end":351.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.08971875000003,"end":354.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.18221875,"end":356.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.12284375,"end":359.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.40909375,"end":362.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.11346875000004,"end":364.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.03284375000004,"end":371.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.49159375000005,"end":375.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.03534375000004,"end":378.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.81971875000005,"end":380.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.61284375,"end":382.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.05096875000004,"end":386.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.00846875,"end":387.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.81846875,"end":389.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.17221875,"end":392.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.26909375,"end":395.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.92659375000005,"end":398.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.10784375000003,"end":404.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.35159375,"end":406.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.97159375,"end":407.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.42284375,"end":408.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.70534375000005,"end":410.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.90346875,"end":411.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.08034375000005,"end":413.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.34596875000005,"end":415.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.64909375,"end":420.70784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.43346875000003,"end":422.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.39096875,"end":424.47096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.19659375000003,"end":435.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.65034375000005,"end":437.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.85284375000003,"end":437.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.86971875,"end":437.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.88659375000003,"end":438.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.03846875000005,"end":438.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.79346875000005,"end":463.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.45659375,"end":468.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.02534375000005,"end":468.73409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.73409375000006,"end":468.76784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.32471875000005,"end":480.96846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.56784375,"end":479.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.90534375000004,"end":480.09096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.96846875000006,"end":488.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.76471875000004,"end":489.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.70534375000005,"end":497.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.38346875,"end":502.09596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.00721875000005,"end":507.19221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.02409375,"end":503.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.79971875,"end":509.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.98909375000005,"end":523.2234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.0928437499999,"end":533.4834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":535.05284375,"end":545.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.20471875,"end":535.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.64221875,"end":543.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":545.93721875,"end":547.2703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.03846875,"end":548.9578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.9578437499999,"end":549.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.41346875,"end":549.7678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":549.83534375,"end":552.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.34971875,"end":556.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.2140937500001,"end":571.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.91659375,"end":570.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.89096875,"end":571.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.90784375,"end":571.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.92471875,"end":571.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.94159375,"end":571.9584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.9584687500001,"end":574.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.92034375,"end":574.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.45159375,"end":577.7803437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":578.53971875,"end":579.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.7040937500001,"end":589.6940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":590.16659375,"end":595.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.85784375,"end":598.4015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":595.26284375,"end":595.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.91221875,"end":598.5872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.5872187500001,"end":598.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":598.65471875,"end":598.6884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.6884687500001,"end":598.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":598.77284375,"end":598.8740937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.8740937499999,"end":599.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":599.2959687499999,"end":600.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":600.88221875,"end":612.3403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.27409375,"end":608.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.3872187500001,"end":609.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.7790937500001,"end":618.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":618.2634687500001,"end":618.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":618.60096875,"end":622.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":622.95471875,"end":624.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.50721875,"end":627.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":628.13534375,"end":630.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":630.7509687500001,"end":634.7165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.95721875,"end":637.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":636.1340937500001,"end":636.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":636.8428437499999,"end":637.5009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":638.27721875,"end":638.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":639.17159375,"end":639.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.11659375,"end":640.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":641.1459687500001,"end":641.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.8672187500001,"end":648.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":649.70159375,"end":657.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":659.13471875,"end":663.5390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.0959687500001,"end":664.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":665.4797187500001,"end":667.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":668.1965937500001,"end":669.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":670.5590937500001,"end":671.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":671.65596875,"end":676.5834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":677.4272187500001,"end":677.7647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":677.91659375,"end":681.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":682.62471875,"end":683.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":683.7553437500001,"end":686.7084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":687.24846875,"end":688.9865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":689.49284375,"end":690.5053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":691.73721875,"end":694.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":694.65659375,"end":702.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.0603437500001,"end":705.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":706.90784375,"end":709.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":710.87346875,"end":713.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":714.34971875,"end":718.5009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":719.88471875,"end":720.6440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":721.53846875,"end":722.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":723.1415937500001,"end":724.6772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":725.4197187500001,"end":726.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":726.5165937500001,"end":727.2084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":727.5290937500001,"end":728.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":730.11096875,"end":732.0515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":732.3215937500001,"end":734.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":735.1059687500001,"end":737.7553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":738.86909375,"end":739.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":739.7297187500001,"end":740.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":741.78846875,"end":743.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":743.9990937500002,"end":750.1415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":750.90096875,"end":752.1497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":752.6897187500001,"end":753.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":753.3815937500001,"end":756.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":757.0265937500001,"end":766.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":767.6240937500002,"end":768.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":769.37909375,"end":770.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":770.79659375,"end":771.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":772.3828437500001,"end":773.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":773.3953437499999,"end":774.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":774.39096875,"end":774.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":775.1840937500001,"end":782.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":782.8115937500002,"end":783.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":784.53284375,"end":786.5915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":787.78971875,"end":788.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":788.90346875,"end":794.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":795.34971875,"end":795.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":797.34096875,"end":799.0790937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.843,"end":16.21,"text":"主席我請金管會主委、財政部長我們今天來的公營航庫是不是所有公共航庫嗎公共航庫"},{"start":25.473,"end":43.907,"text":"所有董事長請起立董事長站位置上好了站位置上好嗎麻煩你站著我等一下馬上要問問題有需要的時候再站起來就好市委員好那個黃主委部長這個我所了解到的"},{"start":52.394,"end":60.96,"text":"這三大租賃公司．中租、迪和、合潤跟裕融．他們不但公司都已經股票上市"},{"start":62.52,"end":90.866,"text":"而且他們貸款給我們社會大眾的其實並不是來自他們的資金他們是大量的大金額的跟我們銀行體系借了我大概估計各方面的資料加起來大概五千億啦他向我們的銀行體系借了五千億低利貸款然後放高利貸給我們全體需要的民眾"},{"start":92.458,"end":104.908,"text":"那這債這才會引起我們這一次我們會議要討論的主題啦那這三大租賃公司啊我姑且稱他為鼠條三兄弟啦吼"},{"start":108.516,"end":110.037,"text":"是金融的代表"},{"start":136.496,"end":151.425,"text":"他要做很多很多的模範給全國的銀行來看那部長、總部長剛好這八大公營、航庫、董事長、總經理都是你任命的"},{"start":152.492,"end":175.191,"text":"那我們國家對待這八大公營行庫董事長、總經理我們待他們不薄他們每年薪資待遇都很高因為我們尊重他們的專業我們希望他們能夠全心全力幫我們公營行庫做得好這個待遇我們都沒話講但是他們做錯事情"},{"start":176.625,"end":199.237,"text":"該打屁股的時候部長你可別心軟可別手軟我要請問這八大公營行庫的就是說就我剛提的啊薯條三兄弟向銀行借了五千億那我請問你們八大公營行庫我請八位董事長你們站起來一下好嗎我請問你們公營行庫"},{"start":207.605,"end":216.572,"text":"第九位中國輸出銀行一開始我們把你併入了喔抱歉好九大我請問你們有貸款給這三大租賃公司的請舉手通通有喔天吶"},{"start":236.567,"end":256.983,"text":"各位董事長我請問你們銀行貸款給借款方最重要這3C信用抵押品還款來源不是嗎信用抵押品就不難啦我就請問你啊"},{"start":259.168,"end":276.552,"text":"這三大主力鼠條三兄弟他們是放高利貸的耶結果你借款給他們他們的還款來源是來自於高利貸你們知道嗎我請問你們知道嗎知道了請舉手喔你們不知道所以你們也是被鼠條三兄弟騙了"},{"start":285.967,"end":308.441,"text":"你們跟我們千千萬萬的受害民眾一樣你們也被騙是不是?你們把來自於社會大眾辛苦的存款、血汗錢借貸給這些不良的租賃公司讓他去放高利貸我上回質詢部長主委的時候我就說"},{"start":310.489,"end":318.076,"text":"我說這三大租賃公司叫做有牌的地下錢莊天吶這麼優質的九大公營行庫們你們竟然還默默的私下的把錢借給他們這叫助紂為虐不是嗎"},{"start":337.688,"end":364.742,"text":"他們的還款來源是來自借款人他們的血汗他們變相向我們這些借款的民眾吸血以高利貸來還給你們第二點我現在請問啊你們九位董事長你們有錢借給這三大租賃公司那表示你們認定了一個合理的消費貸款不是嗎"},{"start":366.069,"end":389.409,"text":"那你們為什麼不直接把錢借給需要的民眾呢?為什麼對一般民眾這麼坑?對這三家註定公司就來個疑問善不知?剛剛你通媒局你通通說你不知道他是放高利貸"},{"start":392.216,"end":395.036,"text":"我不相信,你們縱容他們嘛,不是嗎?為什麼不把資金直接放還給需要的民眾?為什麼?帶頭的,台銀金庫、台灣銀行董事長、呂董事長請你回答,為什麼?有需要資金的民眾這麼多"},{"start":421.496,"end":435.628,"text":"尤其青年朋友們為什麼我們九大公營行庫你不把資金直接融資給需要的民眾們而去借款給這三大租賃公司放高利貸為什麼啦為什麼 呂董事啊"},{"start":440.387,"end":468.259,"text":"委員好我想跟委員報告這一個所有的租賃公司他也扮演一定的這個金融中介的角色事實上就我們所知這裡面的資金95%都不是大家所顧慮的那一些所謂這BNPL的放款而是呢我一路上放這麼多很快速這怎麼都不是呢你明知道嘛"},{"start":469.58,"end":487.549,"text":"例如說這個BMP大概佔全體的5%那大多數還是在所謂的機器設備或者是車輛之類的車代就佔了一半之多你如果看這句絕大多數你們今天我們談說這個"},{"start":490.945,"end":508.817,"text":"民間的金融公司其實最主要我們談這三大啦這三大就佔了90%操帶這麼大的比例金額你們竟然不曉得我有說你有錢借他們怎麼不借給民眾我自己答覆我這一點嘛借給民眾有這麼困難嗎"},{"start":511.021,"end":532.836,"text":"我想這個每個銀行他的業務有他的取向那以銀行而言能夠做的能量就是那至於這個車輛的部分呢車輛占2861我實在不想回答你這個金額啦為什麼因為時間有限你把數字先看清楚了再說我還說台銀是模範生"},{"start":535.22,"end":538.041,"text":"你平時在講整個市場規模啊對啊對啊臺銀啊大概是這拜九大公營行戶之士你們通通貸款給他們啊"},{"start":556.606,"end":577.509,"text":"這個八大公股銀行大概是一千三百出頭億那台銀本身大概一百七八十億所以並非而裡面大概只有五個percent是可能有涉及BMPL對啦我知道你帶的不多啦一百四十億對你們而言對啦還是還是很多啊一輸了就丟啦不不不還是很多沒錯"},{"start":578.507,"end":600.794,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":600.934,"end":621.607,"text":"那個我們隔空這樣談都很清楚了啦,面對面我希望你給我公平的答覆,希望我們公民行庫能夠善待需要貸款的民眾們,直接貸款給他們,不需要透過你剛剛講的,這數條三兄弟你說是金融的仲介!"},{"start":623.228,"end":641.443,"text":"貸款就貸款,直接大家吃來吃往就好,不需要部落格啦,部落格還是吸血的,縱容他們存在嘛,不是這樣嗎?來董事長我真的領你請回。那理解,那我們再跟你報告,謝謝。那部長、主委、那個董事長。"},{"start":643.555,"end":670.868,"text":"你們知不知道這三大有多惡劣他們的手法有多惡劣你知道嗎他們現在的貸款除了說汽車貸款以外他們另外其他的融資他們就假借欸商品假借根本不存在的比方說我舉例有的餐廳要跟他們融資他們啊不能直接貸款這個餐廳給這家公司他就說你啊"},{"start":671.824,"end":690.034,"text":"給我打買賣合約假的合約買賣什麼餐廳喔買賣和牛欸要借200萬跟他先打一個合約說欸這個我跟你買253萬的和牛根本沒有那個東西啊假的就對"},{"start":691.789,"end":708.911,"text":"然後再來第二層皮是什麼就來啦53萬先扣掉那是利息再來80萬的保證金再來10萬的手續費欸河流根本假的沒一個蹤影這家需要貸款的餐廳"},{"start":710.902,"end":737.364,"text":"就先被扒了三次皮啦他本身就是那條和牛被剝了三次皮這個假的那這樣的貸款呢存在存在多少你們去查總共我剛剛跟你們講的啊借改這些法人融資的通通以這樣子的方式所以主席我最後再提一句說"},{"start":738.902,"end":749.907,"text":"部長、金管委員你們九位董事長你們要注意這樣子的租賃公司遏制的他們規避了三大法規公私法"},{"start":750.95,"end":770.877,"text":"因為不能借錢給其他個人規避了民法歷時超過16%應該契約無效規避了刑法的重力罪規避了這三大法規重大的法律結果金管會跟"},{"start":772.718,"end":773.639,"text":"謝謝王世堅委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"151277","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151277","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016275df0c62f258c8a1cb57f63d1b53b7532c5dab72e655c1c949f750fbe189a9eba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:21:48 - 11:39:11","影片長度":"00:17:23","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-12"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":1043,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:39:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:21:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":841,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時21分）主席、各位，大家午安，是不是請我們薛部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["薛部長富盛：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，剛才聽說你在個人意願上，520之後並沒有很想要留下來服務。"],["薛部長富盛：是的，因為我必須做抉擇，我也已經65歲了，所以……"],["林委員淑芬：我覺得有一點可惜，因為到目前為止，我認為第一個，你有專業，第二個，你跟業者保持的距離還蠻不錯的，保持適當的距離，而不是太過於親近，你知道這個部門最大的問題就是行政部門跟業者搞得太親近了，這個事情就不太好了。那我覺得你應該是很適任的，就是說跟業者保持一定的距離，然後又有專業，所以其實我們國家的部門……我們更期待的是你可以留下來。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝林委員。"],["林委員淑芬：這個是題外話，那我現在要講的是限塑的政策。我們看得到，一次性的塑膠用品不減反增，但是我要講幾個數字，根據歐盟2021年統計，每年大概有500萬到1,300萬公噸的塑膠垃圾進入海洋，其中一次性的塑膠產品占了50%以上，這是歐盟的。那臺灣呢？臺灣的本土研究你有看到嗎？荒野保護協會他們在2023年進行了川廢快篩調查計畫，它調查了淡水河，把淡水河從上游新店溪、大安溪、基隆河到下游淡水河，到出海口一共283公里的全河域調查，並作成了調查結果，然後從這個調查結果他們發現河岸段垃圾量成長，2020到2023年的成長高達一倍。臺灣的環境，至少河川塑膠的垃圾成長高達一倍，而這裡面一次性的飲食廢棄物高達七成。他們進一步去比較2020跟2023年這兩次做的數據，第一個，2020的時候，河邊每公里平均有73袋的垃圾，一袋是14公升，所以大概1公里平均有1公噸的垃圾；然後到2023年變成156袋，大概有2.18噸的垃圾，增加了一倍。第二個，廢棄物種類的前三名，第一個是塑膠瓶罐容器，占28.8%，塑膠袋占24.1%，飲料吸管及免洗餐具占15.3%，合計總共近七成是我們生活中一次性的飲食廢棄物。此外，它堆置的地點大概就是河川的下游、河道的交會處、感潮段，熱點是什麼呢？熱點就是特別集中在幾個重要的地標，譬如關渡大橋、社子島的基隆河岸、蘆洲淡水河沿線的步道，也就是下游以及兩河交會處，以上是他們針對河川下游做的調查。但是從源頭來看、從生產塑膠袋的源頭來看，的確也是如此，從塑膠袋生產的源頭來看，這個調查數據徹徹底底反映了這個真實性，經濟部統計處的調查，從100年起到現在，塑膠袋的生產量、銷售量以及內銷量，幾乎也是跟著逐年上升。100年的塑膠袋生產量是19.3萬公噸，110年的生產量從19萬公噸變成31.6萬公噸，生產幅度高達1.6倍；100年生產的19.3萬公噸中內銷是14.2萬公噸，111年生產的31.6萬公噸中內銷使用是20萬公噸，所以塑膠袋的內銷銷售量也成長了1.5倍。看到這樣的數據，我們覺得很奇怪，在限塑政策下是越限越多，使用越多啊！我們都知道100年是限塑政策的起點，卻越用越多！部長，對於越用越多、在限塑政策下越限越多，結果是越用越多，你有什麼樣的想法與政策上的檢討嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：向林委員報告，剛剛林委員的分析非常重要，事實上，過去一段時間我也與我們的資源循環署密集的開會，應該要從剛剛林委員所講的分布去看，事實上，將近百分之七十幾是我們民眾拋棄、使用過的東西，所以重點……"],["林委員淑芬：一次性。"],["薛部長富盛：對，一次性的，這個反而是一個重點，基本上這也是要從源頭去做減量。"],["林委員淑芬：我發現你很認真、你也有掌握啊！很認真，很累吧！"],["薛部長富盛：還好啦！"],["林委員淑芬：很認真很累喔！但是你要掌握一次性的消費行為就會牽扯到生意喔！就會牽扯到商家喔！"],["薛部長富盛：對啊！挑戰度就在這裡了。"],["林委員淑芬：很高喔！所以你覺得很累，你想走了喔！"],["薛部長富盛：沒有、沒有、沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：人家問你，所以你說你不想留著，因為認真、操守又正經的人，其實是不容易的，我知道。但我現在是要鼓勵你，其實最好是繼續留下來為環境努力，因為有專業、很認真又正經八百的人、不與業者混在一起的人，很少！我現在要講的就是這個。","接下來不是要講你，而是要講這個政策，國家永續會為了呼應聯合國永續發展目標，訂出了幾個核心目標、幾個具體目標，我就簡單地講。一次性用品有關的指標，當時永續會訂出2020年減到每年每人使用400個塑膠袋，到了2030年的具體目標是希望達到每年每人使用100個塑膠袋。部長，針對這樣的減量目標，實際上執行的狀況如何？2020年已經過去了。"],["薛部長富盛：署長這邊有沒有數據？"],["林委員淑芬：署長，2020年之後，現在已經減到幾個了？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：我們現在是每年大概使用100億個。"],["林委員淑芬：幾個？每年每人是幾個？"],["薛部長富盛：她講的是total 100億，不是……"],["林委員淑芬：total 100億，2022年每年每人其實是430個，但是還剩下6年就到2030年了，目標是每年每人使用100個塑膠袋。"],["薛部長富盛：挑戰度很高。"],["林委員淑芬：挑戰度很高啊！面對這樣的減量目標，你的具體執行政策、路徑要怎麼做？署長，你有沒有更具體的做法？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上，關於這一點，包括傳統市場、包括攤販、包括夜市，在某種程度可以說是使用塑膠袋的漏網之魚，也不是我們……"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！對啦！你知道問題在那裡，所以你要怎麼做？"],["薛部長富盛：這個部分給一個時間點，大概是明年，我們先預告，未來要以價制量。"],["林委員淑芬：你是說你要預告限塑囉！"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["林委員淑芬：你講的是攤販喔！"],["薛部長富盛：對，攤販與傳統市場。"],["林委員淑芬：現在還沒列管有店面的餐飲業，只有連鎖啦、超商啦、文具、飲料、西點麵包……"],["薛部長富盛：只要開發票的就開始列入了。"],["林委員淑芬：只要開發票的，你現在都要列入了？"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["林委員淑芬：早餐店呢？沒有開發票的早餐店呢？早餐店的塑膠袋才是大宗耶！"],["薛部長富盛：早餐店也是一個很頭痛的問題，就是與傳統市場一樣，它會列在下一波，大概是114年，我們希望明年就可以……"],["林委員淑芬：這是你個人的看法還是部裡的政策？"],["薛部長富盛：我們還在談，也有好幾個腹案，接下來就看看……"],["林委員淑芬：可是你不留下來啊！"],["薛部長富盛：我可以提供意見啊！"],["林委員淑芬：我現在要講這個是因為看守臺灣在2023年已經對民眾……大家不敢推行政策的主要理由都說是民眾不支持，到底是民眾不支持還是政策怠惰？不敢做、誤以為民眾支持，所以我們要拿出數據啊！數據會講話啊！2023年看守臺灣對民眾進行購物用塑膠提袋的使用習慣及政策意向問卷調查，調查結果指出有九成八的民眾支持全面禁用一次性購物用塑膠袋，如果全面限用就不得免費提供，只是限用而不是禁用喔！"],["薛部長富盛：對，它是限用。"],["林委員淑芬：它只是要用塑膠袋必須用買的而已喔！但是有98%的人同意。此外，有93%的民眾支持塑膠袋收費應該使用於垃圾減量措施或垃圾費，這是民間做的調查。但是你們官方也有做，署長，你知道環境部也有做嗎？2018年也針對限塑進行民意調查，第一個，請問你支不支持政府未來擴大管制所有開發票的店家都不能免費提供購物用塑膠袋且需付錢購買，署長，你知道這個贊成的比例有多高嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上，最近我們……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在講的這個是你們做的，事實上贊成的比例很高，你知道這是你們做的嗎？你們不知道？好，沒關係，我告訴你，高達八成的民眾針對這項政策持肯定的評價，而且有近六成五的受訪者認為不只是要針對開發票的店家，應該還要繼續擴大管制夜市、攤販及市場的塑膠袋使用，65%的受訪者認為應該要這樣做；再者，你們還做了網路調查，有七成的受訪者針對這個政策持正面肯定的評價。由此可見，限塑政策已廣為國人接受，而且大多數人都支持以價制量的方式擴大管制對象，減少廢棄物產生。你們在2018年就講過104年開始要全面限用購物用提袋，2030年要全面禁用，這是你們在2018年所提的政策。現在無論是亞洲或歐盟，包括法國，都是全面禁用，在韓國的量販超市或大型商場不是限塑而是禁用，英國則是將購物塑膠袋的價格大幅提高，顯示限塑已經是國際潮流，而且人家已經走到禁塑、禁用了。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，我也希望環境部應該要更勇敢一點，不要用呼籲的！"],["薛部長富盛：不怕得罪人啦！"],["林委員淑芬：呼籲就不是辦法嘛！要拿出真正的政策，我們離上一次的塑膠袋管制政策已經七年了，你們應該要進行檢討，第一個，要擴大限用，就像你說的，開發票的要適用。"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["林委員淑芬：第二個，已經限用的是不是也應該進一步到禁用？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["林委員淑芬：第三個政策上的建議是擴大使用兩用袋，即便是限用的，你不要再買一個……就是擴大使用兩用袋。看守臺灣問民眾拿回家的塑膠袋要做什麼，民眾都說要拿回家裝垃圾。根據它對雙北地區民眾的調查，有75%的人表示拿回去是當垃圾袋使用，有可能在雙北購買了兩用袋回去當成原本就要買的垃圾袋，還可以繼續使用，這樣隨袋徵收，所以擴大使用兩用袋的前提必須是擴大垃圾費隨袋徵收的基礎。限塑政策中的擴大使用兩用袋、兩袋合一成為非常重要的政策配套，在雙北是不是應該要強制規範？可不可以？署長，有沒有困難？它已經隨袋徵收了，所以我們限塑政策的塑就必須是兩用袋。"],["薛部長富盛：我們現在是讓各縣市，特別是直轄縣市，由他們找一些示範點先推行，沒有……"],["林委員淑芬：雙北已經都是隨袋徵收了。"],["薛部長富盛：雙北已經是了，現在桃園、臺南……"],["林委員淑芬：而且隨袋徵收地區的家戶垃圾產出量比隨水徵收地區減少了一半啦！一半啦！真的，隨袋徵收的垃圾減半、回收加倍，大家都知道是有效的。原本大家都以為隨袋徵收要買垃圾袋很貴，隨水徵收比較方便，事實上，隨著垃圾的減量之後，隨袋徵收所買的垃圾袋費用比隨水徵收時代還更便宜，因為大部分都回收了。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["林委員淑芬：我們現在就讓雙北以外的……你們都說這是地方政府的權限，交給地方自行評估，除了雙北是隨袋之外，其他都是隨水，沒有隨水的地方就是按戶徵收。但是我現在要建議你，一般廢棄物清除處理費徵收辦法第三條，它的規定其實是可以處理，由中央訂定政策，但地方政府可能會因為選舉到了就不敢做，其實我們認為中央若能再大刀闊斧一點，為了臺灣的環境，而且我們沒有那麼多的處理量能，永遠可以焚化那麼多的家戶垃圾，所以垃圾要源頭減量，同時要增加回收，而且限塑禁用的目的是我們要在源頭減量，使用這些一次性的塑膠用品嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：認同，謝謝林委員。"],["林委員淑芬：所以需要有效的政策。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["林委員淑芬：那些不敢這麼做的地方政府其實是因為沒有經驗，就以雙北來看，買垃圾袋反而比隨水徵收所付的錢更少，而且垃圾會減量，國家的廢棄物管理會更好、回收的會更多。","抱歉！給我最後1分鐘、半分鐘。我講一個農用塑膠膜的問題，因為亂象很多，而且焚化、掩埋、非法棄置在海邊，污染了海邊，在海邊的垃圾大部分都是農用塑膠膜，非常的多，因為它會沾染土壤，人力清洗不容易，所以廠商不願意回收。我是希望環境部能考慮公告為應回收物品，因為它的量很大，對環境的衝擊很大，請責任業者要繳交回收清除處理費，無論是輸入的或製造的責任業者，通通都要繳錢，繳錢之後回收就有基金會給付，有基金會給付才有意願、才會進入一個好的循環，這件事情已經到了一個很嚴重的地步，茲事體大。謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝林委員。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，你可以留著啦！正經的人留著比較好啦！"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員。我們中午不休息，等質詢委員全部發言結束再散會。","現在處理臨時提案，總共有3案，請一併宣讀。","一、","我國自民國91年起開始推動限塑政策管制塑膠袋及免洗餐具，2018年更提出限用一次性塑膠製品時程表，包括塑膠購物袋、免洗餐具、飲料杯與塑膠吸管，皆於2020年起擴大限用，預計2025年達到全面限用，2030年實現全面禁用目標。惟我國2023年塑膠袋內銷量達20.8萬公噸，較2022年還增加1,300公噸，另外，環境部雖限制四大類業者提供內用者塑膠吸管，但對外帶飲料並無規範，目前有近九成手搖飲料店提供外帶飲料使用塑膠吸管，實難發揮塑膠吸管減量之效果，更突顯限塑政策執行成效有限。","為落實塑膠廢棄物源頭減量，爰要求環境部針對目前14大類不得免費提供購物用塑膠袋對象，以及四大類禁止提供內用者塑膠吸管對象，研擬擴大適用範圍之可行性與方案，於一個月內向社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：王育敏　　陳菁徽　　廖偉翔　　盧縣一","二、","因4月3日花蓮地震造成數部發電機組故障待完成檢修，又逢4月15日大潭等發電機組跳機，台電為求穩定供電遂開啟興達電廠第3、4號燃煤備用機組。惟隔日供電已回穩，台電網站亦顯示該日備轉容量率達13.83%，台電理應依「高雄市環保局空污防制計畫」規定停止興達第3、4號發電機組繼續運行，然該日兩部燃煤發電機組之發電量仍各高達500MW以上（摘自台電網站資料），其作為影響空氣品質、環境問題及國人健康甚鉅。","有鑑於環境部於事發當日並無發布任何聲明或指正，顯現其於經濟部協同台電處理能源問題時，無法充分發揮監督功能，並落實空氣污染防制計畫。爰要求環境部應於本週五前公開說明本次跳電危機相關之疏失及策進作為，並於兩週內提交書面報告予本委員會。","提案人：王育敏　　廖偉翔　　盧縣一　　陳菁徽","三、","案由：我國目前現行一般廢棄物清除處理費依照《一般廢棄物清除處理費徵收辦法》第3條可依照按用水量計算徵收、按戶定額計算徵收、按垃圾量計算徵收等3項方式，惟除台北市、新北市採取按垃圾量計算外，多數直轄市、縣（市）主管機關採取按用水量計算徵收，但國人並未知悉兩項政策反映出垃圾處理成本負擔差異，也無法達到「污染者付費」的公平精神。","請環境部於三個月內參照《一般廢棄物清除處理費微收辦法》第3條3項所列清潔處理方式，提供各縣市、國人每單位垃圾處理費負擔成本供本委員會知悉，並說明目前推動按垃圾量計算徵收所遭遇之困難與改善方案。","提案人：林月琴","連署人：王正旭　　陳　瑩"],["主席：第1案，請問行政單位有沒有意見？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：沒有意見。"],["主席：第1案照案通過。","第2案，請問行政單位有沒有意見？"],["張司長順欽：報告委員，關於臨時提案第2案，我大概簡單說明一下。剛剛我們查了一下，第一個，興達電廠第3、4號機組是到113年的年底才轉為備用，所以我們建議文字做一個調整。後半段的「本週五前公開說明本次跳電」是不是可以刪掉，讓我們在三個禮拜內提出書面報告給委員會，說明台電公司發電污染排放的情形與空氣品質變化的監督作為，包括事前、事中及事後，以及未來台電公司可能轉為備用機組的監督方式，我們把這些都交代清楚，是不是可以改成這樣的修正？"],["主席：需要到三個禮拜嗎？"],["張司長順欽：因為要弄清楚一點，所以我們可能要找台電談清楚。"],["主席：既然如此，我就要看你們是否有檢討徹底三個禮拜的話就要檢討得很徹底。"],["張司長順欽：跟委員報告，目前就是在空氣品質不良的時候他們會降載，我們也都會收得到降載的情形，每一個機組降載的情形……"],["主席：好，到時候提交上來時必須要有很清楚的數據。"],["張司長順欽：是，至於細部的文字，我們再跟助理這邊酌修一下，謝謝。"],["主席：好，你們把文字修正完之後再交到主席台。","第3案。"],["薛部長富盛：沒有意見。"],["顏署長旭明：沒有意見。"],["主席：好，第3案沒有意見，通過。","第2案的修正文字就是這個版本嗎？你唸給大家聽一下。"],["張司長順欽：臨時提案，「因4月3日花蓮地震造成數部發電機組故障待完成檢修，又逢4月15日大潭等發電機組跳機，台電為求穩定供電依規定運行興達電廠第3、4號燃煤機組。惟隔日供電已回穩，台電網站亦顯示該日備轉容量率達13.83%，台電理應依符合「高雄市環保局空污防制計畫」規定興達第3、4號發電機組運行。」後段的部分就刪掉。","再來是第二段，「有鑑於環境部於事發當日並無發布任何聲明或指正，顯現其於經濟部協同台電處理能源問題時，無法充分發揮監督功能，並落實空氣污染防制計畫。爰要求環境部應於三週內提交書面報告予本委員會，說明對於台電公司發電污染排放及空氣品質變化之監督作為，包括事前、事中及事後等作為，及未來可能轉為備載機組之監督。」"],["主席：好，就按修正文字通過。","臨時提案處理完畢。","接下來請游顥委員、游顥委員、游顥委員不在。","請黃秀芳委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","陳瑩","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃秀芳","張雅琳","洪申翰","蔡易餘","劉建國","陳冠廷","楊曜","蘇清泉"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事\n業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.64596875,"end":11.539718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.914718750000002,"end":15.927218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.977843750000002,"end":16.028468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.11284375,"end":23.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.989093750000002,"end":29.359718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.629718750000002,"end":31.840343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.19471875,"end":49.829093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.031593750000006,"end":53.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.102843750000005,"end":66.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.68346875,"end":64.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.01659375,"end":65.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.53534375000001,"end":95.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.52659375,"end":95.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.45471875000001,"end":97.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.36159375000001,"end":129.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.27221875,"end":141.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.72596875000002,"end":171.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.08846875,"end":177.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.87659375,"end":202.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.64471875,"end":235.89284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.66909375,"end":303.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.34221875000003,"end":310.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.25659375000004,"end":317.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.14159375,"end":323.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.60909375,"end":328.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.11034375,"end":332.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.83971875000003,"end":334.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.88159375000004,"end":336.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.31159375000004,"end":337.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.30721875,"end":339.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.47159375,"end":342.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.30659375000005,"end":343.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.38221875000005,"end":346.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.89659375,"end":348.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.60096875000005,"end":356.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.49846875000003,"end":361.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.71784375000004,"end":357.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.74221875,"end":366.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.97784375000003,"end":375.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.82034375,"end":377.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.79909375,"end":376.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.83284375000005,"end":387.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.92971875,"end":377.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.39221875000004,"end":404.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.87909375000004,"end":437.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.47721875,"end":439.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.36721875,"end":440.92409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.27846875,"end":445.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.58596875,"end":444.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.61971875,"end":444.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":444.82221875000005,"end":444.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.62784375,"end":448.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.77971875000003,"end":446.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.22221875,"end":453.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.76596875,"end":455.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.94284375,"end":459.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.62159375000005,"end":459.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.09409375,"end":460.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.12346875000003,"end":461.14034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.14034375000006,"end":462.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.14846875,"end":464.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.48159375,"end":466.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.72159375,"end":468.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.02534375000005,"end":481.42409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.42409375000005,"end":482.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.16659375,"end":490.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.30846875000003,"end":499.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.26096875,"end":512.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.57971875000004,"end":514.3640937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":515.0222187500001,"end":520.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":520.16909375,"end":521.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":521.46846875,"end":522.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.0209687500001,"end":525.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.21471875,"end":525.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.23159375,"end":526.2778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.2778437500001,"end":526.6997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.6997187500001,"end":526.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.91909375,"end":529.1128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.16346875,"end":529.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":529.29846875,"end":529.3490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.3490937500001,"end":530.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.56409375,"end":533.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.9265937499999,"end":542.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.67221875,"end":543.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.35534375,"end":543.6084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.6084687499999,"end":543.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.81096875,"end":543.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.8447187500001,"end":543.8615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.8615937500001,"end":544.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":544.1315937500001,"end":545.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":545.5322187500001,"end":545.5490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.5490937500001,"end":551.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":549.71721875,"end":559.5890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.97846875,"end":552.3328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.8928437500001,"end":562.1709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.3272187499999,"end":566.2378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.42784375,"end":569.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.1528437500001,"end":571.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.5915937500001,"end":572.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.8022187500001,"end":573.8484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.55284375,"end":584.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.6653437500001,"end":653.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.5803437500001,"end":616.3059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":654.46034375,"end":657.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.06284375,"end":662.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.45471875,"end":668.2978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.47909375,"end":674.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.3390937500001,"end":726.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.21284375,"end":742.2609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":742.6828437500001,"end":743.8303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":743.35784375,"end":743.5265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":743.9653437500001,"end":747.1884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":747.72846875,"end":749.8547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":748.0322187500001,"end":749.0615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":750.34409375,"end":764.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":764.70471875,"end":764.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":764.9409687500001,"end":767.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":767.52284375,"end":768.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":767.64096875,"end":776.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":768.24846875,"end":768.3328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":776.8547187500001,"end":824.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":814.0134687500001,"end":814.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":825.45471875,"end":834.3647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":834.8034687500001,"end":835.5122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":836.2547187500002,"end":837.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":837.16596875,"end":838.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":838.68471875,"end":840.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":841.7053437500001,"end":843.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":844.6753437500001,"end":845.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":845.2153437500001,"end":851.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":845.2490937500002,"end":846.0422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":852.2522187500001,"end":863.2547187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":859.52534375,"end":862.4953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":863.2547187500002,"end":871.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":863.27159375,"end":864.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":871.75971875,"end":872.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":872.01284375,"end":896.1272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":888.2297187500001,"end":888.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":896.31284375,"end":898.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":898.7934687500001,"end":927.8859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":924.2240937500001,"end":924.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":928.3247187500001,"end":956.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":956.8940937500001,"end":957.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":957.5690937500001,"end":961.0790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":961.88909375,"end":965.1797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":965.7534687500001,"end":971.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":972.0815937500001,"end":980.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":980.83971875,"end":983.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":983.80971875,"end":997.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":997.9678437500002,"end":998.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":998.30534375,"end":998.3728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":998.6428437500001,"end":1007.3503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1007.6203437500001,"end":1010.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1010.42159375,"end":1036.9322187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1037.0672187500002,"end":1038.5184687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1038.5184687500002,"end":1039.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1040.50971875,"end":1042.3153437500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.924,"end":31.613,"text":"主席各位大家午安是不是來請我們薛部長好請部長林委員好部長剛才聽說你520之後就你個人意願上並沒有很想要留下來服務是的已經這個也因為我必須做抉擇因為我也已經65歲了所以"},{"start":32.51,"end":37.656,"text":"我覺得有點可惜,因為到目前為止,我認為第一個你有專業第二個你跟業者保持的距離還蠻不錯的,保持適當的距離而不是太過於親近你知道這個部門最大的問題就是行政部門跟業者搞得太親近了,這個事情就不太好了"},{"start":53.172,"end":72.517,"text":"但我覺得你應該是很適任的就是說跟業者保持一定的距離然後又有專業所以其實我們國家的部門我們更期待是你可以留下來這個是題外話但我現在講的是限塑的政策我們看得到一次性的塑膠用品不減反增"},{"start":74.077,"end":94.738,"text":"但是我要講幾個數字根據歐盟2021年統計每年大概有500萬到1300萬公噸的塑膠垃圾進入海洋其中一次性的塑膠產品佔了50%以上這是歐盟的那台灣呢?台灣的本土研究你有看到嗎?是"},{"start":99.413,"end":120.083,"text":"荒野保護協會他們在2023年荒野保護協會他們進行了穿廢快篩調查計畫他調查了淡水河把淡水河從上游新天溪、大安溪、基隆河到下游淡水河到出海口一共283公里的全河域調查他做成了"},{"start":120.763,"end":141.133,"text":"然後在這個調查結果他們發現河岸段垃圾量成長2020到2023年成長高達一倍台灣的環境至少河川塑膠的這個垃圾成長高達一倍而這裡面一次性的飲食廢棄物高達七成"},{"start":142.796,"end":167.068,"text":"那他們進一步去比較2020跟2023年這些數據這兩次做的數據他們顯示第一個2020的時候呢每公里就河邊啦每公里平均有73袋的垃圾一袋是14公升所以大概一公里平均有一公噸一公噸的這個垃圾然後到2023年變成156袋大概有2.18噸"},{"start":171.971,"end":172.231,"text":"提供的報告"},{"start":196.949,"end":222.037,"text":"是我們生活當中一次性的飲食廢棄物那此外呢他堆置的地點大概就是河川的下游河道的交會處趕潮斷這熱點是什麼呢熱點就是特別集中在幾個重要的地標比如說關渡大橋社址島的基隆河岸還有盧州淡水河沿線的步道就是下游還有這個兩河交會處這樣子"},{"start":225.819,"end":230.969,"text":"我們在這看這個是下游他們去做的調查但從源頭來看從生產垃圾袋的源頭來看的確也是如此"},{"start":236.704,"end":238.265,"text":"從塑膠袋生產的源頭來看這個調查數據徹底的反映了這個真實性經濟部統計處的調查從100年起到現在塑膠袋的生產量、銷售量還有內銷量幾乎也是跟著逐年上升100年的時候塑膠袋生產量是19.3萬公噸"},{"start":264.203,"end":265.744,"text":"110年生產量是從19萬變成31.6萬公噸生產幅度高達1.6倍然後100年的時候這個19萬.3公噸裡面它內銷是14.2萬公噸"},{"start":284.341,"end":309.878,"text":"然後111年31.6萬公噸裡面內銷使用是20萬公噸所以塑膠袋的內銷銷售量也成長了1.5倍那在這種數據裡面我們覺得是奇怪限塑政策越限越多使用越多啊所以我們都知道100年就是我們限塑政策的起點啊"},{"start":311.311,"end":331.799,"text":"然後卻越用越多,那部長這個對越用越多、限塑政策越限越多結果越用越多,這個你有什麼樣的想法和政策上的檢討嗎?給林委員報告,這個剛剛林委員的分析非常重要,事實上我們過去一段時間我跟我們的資源型懷屬"},{"start":332.899,"end":361.07,"text":"就是密集的在開會應該要從源頭剛剛林委員這個講到的分布事實上有將近70%事實上是我們民眾拋棄的使用過的這些東西一次性對一次性的所以這個反而是一個重點那一次性基本上也要從源頭來去做減量你就是這樣子你很認真我發現你很認真你也掌握啊很認真很累齁"},{"start":362.75,"end":387.452,"text":"還好吧很認真很累但是你要掌握一次性的這個消費行為就牽扯到生意喔就要牽扯到商家喔對啊所以這個挑戰度就在這邊很高喔所以你就很累你想走了喔沒有沒有沒有沒有人家問你所以你說你不想留著因為認真又正經操守又正經的人其實是不容易的我知道但我現在在這裡是要鼓勵你其實"},{"start":388.493,"end":404.138,"text":"最好是繼續留下來為環境努力因為有專業很認真又政經八百的人不跟業者混在一起的人很少我現在要講這一個好我現在不是要講你我要講這個政策"},{"start":405.098,"end":412.4,"text":"國家永續會他們為了這個我們自己的為了呼籲這個聯合國永續發展目標訂出了幾個核心目標幾個具體目標我簡單的來講一次性用品有關的指標當時永續會就是訂出來2020年減到每年每人使用400個塑膠袋"},{"start":427.884,"end":437.555,"text":"到2030年每個人要每年限制希望能夠有一個具體目標是要達到每年每人使用100個但是這樣的部長這樣的減量目標實際上執行的狀況怎麼樣20年已經到了"},{"start":450.23,"end":452.152,"text":"市長2020年現在撿到幾個?我們現在是每年大概用100億個每年每人幾個?不是他講的是total100億不是"},{"start":467.936,"end":489.863,"text":"總共101對現在每年每人2022年計是430個那現在剩下6年就2030年了每人每年要使用100個塑膠袋就這樣子挑戰度很高那你這樣的減量目標你的具體的執行政策路徑要怎麼樣做?署長你有沒有更具體的?"},{"start":492.375,"end":514.046,"text":"事實上這個給林委員報告這一點就是我們一直這個對於包括傳統市場包括癱瘓包括夜市事實上它是塑膠在使用裡面的在某一個程度可以說是這個漏網之一也不是我們不是啦對啦你知道在那裡你要怎麼做"},{"start":515.206,"end":543.281,"text":"這一點我們事實上給一個時間點大概明年我們先預告那未來我想包括以量以價值量好那我你是說你要預告要限塑囉對你講的是攤販喔對攤販跟傳統式的現在還沒有列管的有店面的餐飲業現在是只有這個連鎖啦超商啦連鎖的那個還有文具啦洗衣店飲料洗點麵包只要開花票的"},{"start":543.561,"end":571.628,"text":"只要開發票的開始列入了你現在都要列入了早餐店呢?沒有開發票的早餐店呢?早餐店的熱搜大中欸早餐店那個也是一個很頭痛的問題就是跟傳統市場那個一樣那列在下一波大概114年我們希望這個明年這是你個人的看法還是說這個整體的部裡面的政策我們有在談啦有好幾個互換啦那接下來就看看可是你不留下來啊"},{"start":572.833,"end":592.487,"text":"我可以提供意見我現在要講這個是因為Consul台灣在2023年他們已經對民眾大家政策不敢推行的主要理由都說啊這個民眾不支持啦到底是民眾不支持還是政策怠惰不敢做誤以為民眾支持那我們要拿出數據啊數據會講話"},{"start":595.289,"end":619.944,"text":"2023年看守台灣對民眾進行了購物用塑膠提袋的使用習慣及政策意向問卷調查。調查結果指出有九成八的民眾支持全面禁用一次性的購物用塑膠袋。如果全面限用的話就不得免費提供只是限用而不是禁用喔限用它只是你沒有袋你要再用塑膠袋要買而已喔"},{"start":620.504,"end":634.792,"text":"但是是98%同意一次性的那9393%的民眾支持塑膠袋收費應該使用於垃圾減量措施及或垃圾費這是民間做的但是官方你們也有做"},{"start":636.052,"end":656.829,"text":"環境部部長你知道也有做嗎2018年也針對限塑進行民意調查第一個你們問請問你支不支持政府未來擴大管制所有開發票的店家都不能免費提供購物用塑膠袋且需付錢購買部長你知道你們這個贊成的比例有多高嗎"},{"start":661.41,"end":668.189,"text":"我現在講這個是你們做的事實上很高你們自己做的你知道嗎你們不知道好沒關係我告訴你"},{"start":669.517,"end":688.349,"text":"高達八成的民眾針對這項政策持肯定的評價而且有近六成五的受訪者認為不是只有針對開發票的應該還要繼續擴大管制業市攤販及市場的塑膠袋使用65%的受訪者認為應該要這樣子然後你們還做了網路調查有七成的受訪者針對這個政策持正面肯定的評價由此可見"},{"start":699.156,"end":719.174,"text":"現做的政策以廣為國人接受而且大多數人都支持以價質量的方式擴大管制對象減少廢棄物產生而且你們過去就講過你講的沒錯你2018年就講104年開始要全面限用購物用提待2030年要全面禁用"},{"start":719.935,"end":746.762,"text":"本來你們2018年的政策是這樣子而現在不論是亞洲或歐盟包括法國是全面禁用在韓國的量販店、超市、大型商場他們不是限塑,他們是禁用英國把購物袋那個塑膠袋的價格大幅提高所以顯示限塑已經是國際潮流而且人家已經走到禁塑了禁用了那我也是希望部長環境部應該更勇敢一點"},{"start":747.762,"end":775.922,"text":"不要用呼籲的呼籲就不是辦法嘛事實上要拿出真正的政策來我們離上一次的塑膠袋管制的政策已經7年了你們應該檢討第一個要檢討要擴大現用然後你說了開發票的要用那我們現在講說擴大現用第二個已經現用的是不是也應該進一步到禁用"},{"start":777.343,"end":795.655,"text":"進用那我們還有一個第三個這個政策上的建議就是說擴大使用兩用袋即便是現用的你不要再用買買一個那個就是擴大使用兩用袋你看看守台灣去做說那你拿回家的問民眾拿回家的塑膠袋你做什麼他們說我拿回去裝垃圾"},{"start":798.277,"end":811.966,"text":"然後他調查了雙北地區的人他75%的人也是拿回去當垃圾袋使用有可能在雙北裡面他們其實是購買了兩用袋兩用袋回去再當成他本來就要買垃圾袋還可以繼續使用這樣隨袋徵收所以當然擴大使用兩用袋的前提必須是擴大垃圾費隨袋徵收的基礎"},{"start":825.532,"end":840.097,"text":"所以兩...限塑政策裡面你擴大使用兩用袋兩袋合一成為非常重要的這個政策配套在雙北是不是應該要這樣...應該強制規範下去可不可以?署長有沒有困難?他已經隨來徵收了嘛但我們如果要限塑政策的塑那必須是兩用袋"},{"start":852.264,"end":864.467,"text":"我們現在是給各縣市特別直轄縣市他們找一些示範點先來推雙北已經都是了我們都隨帶徵收了而且隨帶徵收的地區的家戶垃圾的產出的量比隨水徵收的減少一半啦一半啦真的隨帶徵收的垃圾減半然後回收加倍大家都知道是有效的"},{"start":880.532,"end":885.516,"text":"而且大家都以為隨隨徵收垃圾買垃圾袋很貴隨隨徵收比較方便事實上隨著垃圾的減量以後隨代徵收所買的垃圾袋的費用比隨隨徵收時代還更便宜"},{"start":896.405,"end":896.645,"text":"林淑芬議員"},{"start":916.218,"end":942.056,"text":"一般廢棄物清除處理徵收辦法第三條他的規定其實是可以處理由中央定政策地方政府覺得選舉到了他不敢不敢但是我們認為說啊其實中央如果再大刀闊斧一點的話為了台灣的環境而且我們沒有那麼多的處理量能永遠都是分化把它分化那麼多的家戶垃圾垃圾要源頭減量"},{"start":943.357,"end":963.621,"text":"然後要增加回收然後呢限塑禁用的目的是我們要在源頭減量使用這些塑膠一次性的用品嘛所以要有效的政策有效的政策中央喔 電 現在不敢做了其實他們沒經驗 看雙倍來看威樂世代是電到臂水水增收 收服的錢更加少"},{"start":972.148,"end":997.191,"text":"李佳垃圾會減量而且這個國家的廢棄物的管理會更好回收的會更多這個是這樣子最後抱歉給我最後一分鐘半分鐘我講一個農用塑膠膜的問題因為亂象很多而且焚化、掩埋、非法棄置、污染在海邊、海邊的垃圾大部分都農用塑膠膜非常多"},{"start":999.04,"end":1011.682,"text":"大概就是因為它沾染土壤所以這個人力清洗不容易所以廠商不願意回收我是希望環境部應該去考慮公告為應回收物品因為的確這個量很大對環境衝擊很大然後請責任業者要繳交這個回收清除處理費不管輸入的或製造的責任業者通通要繳錢"},{"start":1025.405,"end":1038.678,"text":"腳結以後回收就有基金會給付有基金會給付才有意願才會進入一個好的循環這個事情已經到一個很嚴重的地步了知事體大謝謝好 謝謝林委員部長你可以留著啦 比較正經的人留的比較好"}]}},{"id":"151276","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151276","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627238928e5be901e0f0915613d02a5e1dcc5dab72e655c1c9458fff7e47292a95a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"11:23:43 - 11:36:33","影片長度":"00:12:50","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（4月17日及18日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":770,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:36:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:23:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":532,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時23分）有請部長，謝謝主席。"],["潘部長文忠：召委好。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長好。部長，在進入今天的主題之前，我先提一件事情，就是臺北大學發生學校端的高層疑似介入學生會選舉，干涉學生自治組織運作的事件，學校端雖然否認，可是對話截圖都有了，請問教育部有掌握狀況嗎？因為臺北大學最近的狀況確實特別多。"],["潘部長文忠：這個案子我們會再持續了解，因為學生有反映這個意見。召委，應該這樣子講，如果今天用各種條件等等去鼓勵學生，我覺得不是我們可接受、樂見的。"],["林委員宜瑾：當然。"],["潘部長文忠：一般參與學生自治，當然老師去鼓勵，這是OK啦！"],["林委員宜瑾：就是讓他們自己去……對。"],["潘部長文忠：他們是提出說好像有師長用其他幾種誘因，我們在這方面會再做深入了解，我覺得有點刻意地去影響就不好，如果只是單純鼓勵，我們都說鼓勵年輕人……"],["林委員宜瑾：因為臺北大學最近發生滿多事情，像前陣子它好像臨時要把一個宿舍關閉，無預警就要關閉，然後要讓人家搬遷，然後學生代表在會議中要發言也被強迫關麥，等等啦！所以臺北大學現在的學校端不曉得發生什麼事情，我想還是請教育部跟他們溝通一下。"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["林委員宜瑾：另外，針對今天的主題，就是教改的問題，我想教改30年來當然有它的侷限跟缺點，可是我不認為真的就像一些特定人士所說的那麼一無是處，教育跟知識的普及不是壞事，可是我們應當進一步去想，如何在大學的量能充足之下，也要兼顧教育資源的配置、教育品質及教育公共化這個議題。","我想1990年，我們回顧一下，1990年高職教育是主流，大部分的國中生畢業之後進入技職體系，當然近年來高職的學生占比明顯降低，甚至在108學年度已經跌破5成，與一般高中生出現了黃金交叉。另外，根據應屆畢業生升學就業概況調查來看，110學年升學到私立大學的學生有8.8萬人，占升學者的5成7，公立大學是4成，所以換句話說，私立大學比起公立大學承接了更多的學生。如果以上兩大點都涉及了所謂的教育資源的分配，請問部長，我們如何面對技職人才的流失？有什麼具體的策略？再請部長說明，我們為了追求教育的公共化，以達成公立學校學生數過半為目標，這個目標你是否認同？"],["潘部長文忠：是，謝謝委員。因為我們國內在高中階段本來就有一個氛圍，早期確實就讀技職體系，包含五專，因為多數的五專都是比較以技職為主，所以可以看得出來，那個量很清楚，占比也高，因為當時的大學入學比例，委員也了解嘛！"],["林委員宜瑾：窄門。"],["潘部長文忠：很窄，所以反過來，在家長的想法各方面大概認為說孩子有一技之長也可以來做發展，這是在那個時空。當然410教改，我早上也跟很多委員報告，以當時的時空，臺灣是面對一個戒嚴後……"],["林委員宜瑾：先把窄門打開一點。"],["潘部長文忠：很多教育是被嚴格地規範單一的標準，所以才有410這麼多的團體出來，希望教育鬆綁，希望能夠適度地增加孩子升學的機會，包含教育現代化等等的措施。這樣的變革剛好碰到臺灣在少子化的過程，這30年當中，在87年左右啦！因為我一直在注意相關的情形，就發現整個生源已經減少了，到目前為止，看起來這個趨勢還是一直在下降當中。"],["林委員宜瑾：對。"],["潘部長文忠：所以現在去看當時的改制升格，速度真的快了一點，在10年不到的時間，幾乎大部分都……"],["林委員宜瑾：如雨後春筍。"],["潘部長文忠：對，尤其是五專大量改變，當時五專占的比率相當高，幾乎占當時大專校院的一半，但是後來統統都改制了，如果從這種角度來看，當然大家會覺得當時為什麼要開放這麼多，造成現在學校過剩的現象。但是如果從整體來講，我還是必須要提到，未來不管是產業的發展、等等的發展，已經不是那麼侷限在單一領域、單一專長的概念，其實我們應該是說在這個現象之後，退場是一件很為難的事，但不得不，但是如何在教育上讓孩子能夠學到更多，甚至於具備更多專長，包括跨領域的部分，讓他能夠銜接未來的職涯發展，我覺得我們應該更加努力啦！所以才會說人少了，其實個個都是需要國家好好栽培的對象，不是只有讀書這一件事情。"],["林委員宜瑾：當然。"],["潘部長文忠：因為現在在臺灣貢獻很大的社會界、產業界，好多也未必都是一路升學表現最好的，俗稱的學霸，我覺得未必。"],["林委員宜瑾：對。剛剛我有提到，追求教育公共化是我們很大的一個目標，未來有沒有可能公立院校會大於私立院校，來承接更多的學生？這樣的目標你認同嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：當然就讀公立，那是公共化的一環。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，當然。"],["潘部長文忠：在措施上，就讀私立學校，比如像蔡總統、賴總統這邊提出的政策主張，補助私校學費的目標是希望讓孩子在選擇的過程當中不是只有公立，但是減輕就學負擔，它本身也是公共化的方式之一。","再來，弱勢孩子的協助，弱勢孩子不管讀到公立讀到私立，這個措施也是我們在談的公共化，所以公共化大概不會單獨以多少人讀公校作為唯一的比例，但是如果從教育平權的角度來看，我覺得政府要持續來努力，讓孩子的選擇是多元的。我相信以少子化生源的發展，多數學生還是會把就讀公立作為優先選擇，所以從招生的註冊率等等來看，在多數來講，公立還是比私立高，我想那是一個……"],["林委員宜瑾：未來的趨勢。"],["潘部長文忠：未來的趨勢，但是我也覺得政府不是用過度強力的方式說一定要維持，我要增加都是公立的。"],["林委員宜瑾：當然。"],["潘部長文忠：因為私校對臺灣社會還是有它的貢獻，只是說教學品質這件事，我認為是政府要把關的。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，就誠如部長所說，我覺得少子化是一個衝擊，也是一個轉機，我們怎麼樣在高教量能比起過去還要豐沛的情況之下，重視質跟量的改革，這樣子才能讓整個教育資源落實在孩子的身上。","我們來談到私校退場問題，花蓮大漢技術學院的師生今天在我們立法院門口做陳抗，他們今天就是為了要揭露學校董事會怎麼樣掏空校產，擅自宣布要停招、停辦，沒有依照所謂的私校退場條例的路徑在走。特別是他們是先斬後奏，他們是先宣告要停辦了，下學年就要停招了，然後在4月份才開說明會等等，不曉得你有沒有對這個事情有所掌握？"],["潘部長文忠：有。大漢技術學院如果以目前的法規，我想我們本來就是依法，它在各方面並沒有被我們列為專輔學校。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，也沒有。預警沒有，專輔也沒有。"],["潘部長文忠：對。因為有時候有一些團體他們希望教育部應該直接介入，我說它不是用私校退場條例的方式，政府是沒有說我現在就直接幫你取代，但是大漢技術學院未來停辦等等的事項，它是有一個校內的程序，教育部還有一個嚴謹的把關啦！我想依法行政來做這件事情是目前來講，教育部會去堅持的程序，尤其是它如果真的因為招生狀況很不好，因為現在就我所掌握到的，全校日、夜間部加起來，這個科系總共不到200人，一百多個學生，那是不是能夠持續地維持，董事會當然會依法去做評估。之後如果它提出停辦的計畫，教育部一定會很嚴格地要求教職員工以及學生權益的維護，還有學校怎麼去應變，這個是我們最後審查同不同意一個非常重要的關鍵，也會經過私校諮詢會的專業在最上面做判斷，來做把關。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，我想少子化的影響是全面性的，我們最表象看到的就是它的班級數、學生數、學生跟教師的比例方面，以我們臺南市為例，今年小一的新生相較去年就少了1,000人，已經連續兩年新生明顯下降，預估明後年會更少。不過有個特殊的狀況，就是我們即將升國一的小六新生因為在龍年出生，增加了三千一百多人，所以我們今年的小學是減班，可是國中卻是增班。請問部長，有沒有盤整過全臺的狀況？我想這不是特例，應該每個縣市都有這樣的狀況。"],["潘部長文忠：召委所提的就是現在整體的趨勢。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，那如何因應？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟召委報告，目前我們可以看到已出生的，就是112年年底就知道的那個數據，包含前一年，這些都是既成已有的數字，也看得出波段，所以在這個過程，國中、國小因為是義務教育階段，如果做學校增減班，甚至有沒有併校、廢校，其實是有一個非常清楚的規範給地方政府來做依循。當然，確保學生的受教權益及就學權益，這是我們在處理的原則，如果說學校真的縣市要併了，你必須要考慮學生的就學，如果要到好遠，你必須考慮是不是直接讓學生每天搭1小時或多少車程才能上學，在義務教育階段這不妥當，所以我們要求地方政府在做考慮的時候，你應該把這些都一併提出，尤其要跟社區來做溝通說明，我想這個還是最大的前提。當然，少子化的趨勢在義務教育階段比較不能像大學、大專校院，我們現在是很努力地跟公私立大學校院一起來招收國際學生、境外學生，成效也不錯，但是中小學這一塊是比較不容易，也不可能招小留學生來臺灣，所以這一塊會比較嚴謹地在作法上來確保學生的就學權益，如果一旦有做處理，對教職員工的權益還是要維護。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝部長說明，也謝謝召委。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝召委。"],["主席：接下來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-8","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","吳春城","范雲","張嘉郡","羅智強","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","廖偉翔","莊瑞雄","劉建國","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.4697187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.4697187500000001,"end":0.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.50346875,"end":0.5372187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.5372187500000001,"end":0.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.58784375,"end":0.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.84096875,"end":0.8915937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.8915937500000001,"end":0.9422187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.5115937500000003,"end":4.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.64159375,"end":8.282843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.907218750000002,"end":9.818468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.223468750000002,"end":10.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.117843750000002,"end":36.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.42221875,"end":34.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.181593750000005,"end":71.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.267218750000005,"end":56.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.12534375,"end":203.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.17596875000001,"end":71.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.34846875000001,"end":74.75346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.89784375000002,"end":204.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.18471875,"end":247.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.64221875,"end":221.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.87409375000001,"end":268.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.54909375000003,"end":250.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.84346875000003,"end":255.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.51221875000005,"end":296.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.15596875,"end":281.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.30721875,"end":284.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.74534375,"end":289.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.87534375,"end":294.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.69346875,"end":313.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.11096875000004,"end":299.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.05096875000004,"end":304.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.28159375,"end":322.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.86659375,"end":323.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.71034375,"end":324.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.68909375000004,"end":326.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.46096875,"end":329.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.86971875,"end":330.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.59534375000004,"end":332.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.09284375000004,"end":334.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.24034375,"end":369.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.02909375,"end":336.36659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.23346875000004,"end":351.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.07596875,"end":360.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.43784375,"end":367.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.01971875000004,"end":369.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.25596875,"end":389.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.79721875,"end":409.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.73721875,"end":395.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.34784375000004,"end":402.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.29596875000004,"end":428.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.76284375,"end":419.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.82471875000005,"end":476.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.20784375000005,"end":434.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.34534375000004,"end":445.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.93659375000004,"end":469.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.61471875,"end":534.7490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.79596875000004,"end":478.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.38596875,"end":482.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.97971875,"end":490.73909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.7490937499999,"end":602.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.9253437500001,"end":541.5834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.8103437500001,"end":550.5947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.40596875,"end":571.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.4853437500001,"end":609.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.75846875,"end":618.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.85409375,"end":663.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.20596875,"end":662.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.16784375,"end":670.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.4753437500001,"end":668.6184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.1540937500001,"end":702.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":702.7397187500001,"end":769.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":714.1640937500001,"end":714.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":756.13221875,"end":756.4865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":767.1853437500001,"end":768.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.0078437500001,"end":769.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":769.07534375,"end":769.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":769.10909375,"end":769.46346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":0.109,"text":"趙薇好"},{"start":9.242,"end":33.848,"text":"部長好部長要跟您進入今天的主題之前我先提一件事情就是台北大學有發生這個學校端的高層疑似介入這個學生會的選舉干涉這個學生自治組織運作的事件那學校端雖然否認可是對話截圖都有了那請問教育部有掌握狀況嗎因為台北大學最近的狀況確實特別多"},{"start":37.429,"end":37.85,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":58.033,"end":58.914,"text":"現在就是說因為臺北大學最近也發生蠻多事情的"},{"start":74.702,"end":77.283,"text":"請教育部跟他們溝通一下另外我想針對今天的主題就是教改的問題我想教改"},{"start":104.696,"end":130.509,"text":"這個30年來當然有它的局限跟缺點可是我不認為真的有像一些特定人士所說的就是說那麼的一無是處教育跟知識的普及不是壞事可是我們應當進一步去想說該如何在大學的量能充足之下也要兼顧教育資源的配置跟教育品質跟教育公共化的這個議題"},{"start":131.75,"end":155.772,"text":"那我想1990年我們回顧一下1990年高職教育是主流那大部分的國中生畢業之後進入技職體系那可是當然近年來高職的學生占比明顯降低那甚至在108學年度已經跌破了五成跟就讀一般的高中生出現的黃金交叉那另外我們在看"},{"start":156.693,"end":173.424,"text":"根據我們這個應屆的畢業生的升學就業的蓋範調查來看110學年升學到私立大學的學生有這個8.8萬人占升學者的5成7那公立大學的是4成"},{"start":174.264,"end":202.782,"text":"那所以換句話說私立大學比起公立大學承接了更多的學生那如果以上兩大點都涉及的所謂的教育資源的分配所以才要請問部長說那我們如何面對計職人才的流失那有什麼具體的策略那再請部長說明說我們為了追求教育的公共化那以達成說公立學校的學生數過半為目標這個目標你是否認同"},{"start":203.939,"end":209.684,"text":"謝謝委員因為確實在我們國內我們說在高中階段其實本來就有一個風軌那早期就讀技職體系包含武專因為我們多數的武專也都是比較以技職為主所以可以看得出來那個量是很清楚占比也高"},{"start":227.419,"end":243.394,"text":"當時的大學入學比例很窄所以反過來家長的想法各方面大概認為說孩子有一技之長也可以來做發展那個是那個時空當然施玉琳教改我早上也跟很多委員報告當時的時空確實台灣是面對一個"},{"start":248.058,"end":251.64,"text":"教育是被嚴格的規範單一的標準所以才有410這麼多的團體出來希望教育鬆綁希望能夠適度的再增加孩子如果有機會升學包含教育的現代化等等的這些措施"},{"start":268.59,"end":295.585,"text":"那這樣的變革我們也應該說如果也剛好碰到台灣也其實在少子化在這個過程這30年當中的87年左右因為我一直在注意這個相關就發現整個聲援已經減少了那當然到目前為止看起來這個趨勢還是一直在下降當中所以用現在去看因為當時的改制升格速度真的快了一點當時在10年不到時間"},{"start":296.886,"end":297.086,"text":"主持人 林宜瑾"},{"start":322.978,"end":322.998,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":352.603,"end":352.643,"text":"主席"},{"start":369.826,"end":394.141,"text":"所以剛剛部長我有提到就是說當然追求教育公共化是我們的很大的一個追求的目標那所以說如果說未來有沒有可能是公立的院校會大於私立的院校就承接更多的學生這樣的一個目標我說你這樣你認同嗎委員當然就讀公立那是公共化的一環"},{"start":396.062,"end":401.724,"text":"在措施上就讀私立學校比如像蔡總統脈總統這邊提出的政策主張把這個學費私校的學費目標也比較希望能夠讓孩子在選擇的過程當中"},{"start":410.728,"end":411.028,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":428.871,"end":429.071,"text":"主席"},{"start":445.196,"end":452.323,"text":"因為對於就讀功力還是多數學生會把它做為優先選擇所以從招生的注冊率等等來看功力還是比施力在多數來講還是高我想那個是一個未來的趨勢但是政府我也覺得不是用過度強力的方式說一定維持我要增加多數功力的"},{"start":470.14,"end":496.273,"text":"因為私校對台灣社會還是有它的貢獻只是說教學品質這一件事我認為是政府要把關的對 就誠如部長所說其實少子化我覺得是一個衝擊可是也是一個轉機就是我們怎麼樣在高教能這個比起過去還要豐沛的那個情況之下重視值跟量的改革對 那這樣子才能讓這整個教育資源能落實在孩子的身上那我們來談到私校退場問題那今天"},{"start":499.535,"end":518.748,"text":"有那個大漢這個誇臉的大漢技術學院在那個我們立法院門口施聲來做陳抗那他們今天就是為了要揭露這個學校董事會怎麼樣掏空校產那他們擅自宣布他們要停招停辦沒有依照所謂的我們私校退場條例的這個"},{"start":520.089,"end":523.77,"text":"我想跟你們報告當然大漢技術學院如果以我們目前的法規我想我們本來就是依法它在各方面並沒有出現被我們列為叫做專輔"},{"start":548.68,"end":549.561,"text":"教育部部長潘文忠"},{"start":571.332,"end":571.692,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":591.024,"end":591.044,"text":"好﹖"},{"start":619.295,"end":619.315,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":643.832,"end":646.475,"text":"請問部長有沒有盤整過全台的狀況我想這不是特例應該每個縣市都有這樣的"},{"start":663.492,"end":682.361,"text":"你所提的這個就是現在的整體的趨勢對那這如何因應我跟張老闆報告因為當然以目前我們都可以看到已出生的就從就是一二年年底就知道那個數據包含前一年是這些都是繼承已有的這些數字那也看得出這個波段"},{"start":684.102,"end":684.122,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":702.894,"end":702.934,"text":"主席"},{"start":721.498,"end":744.079,"text":"所以這些都是我們要求地方政府要做這個考慮的時候你應該把這些都一併的要提出尤其要跟社區來做溝通說明這個我想還是一個最大的前提當然這個少子化的趨勢在義務教育階段比較不能像大學大專校我們現在是很努力的跟大學校園公司力一起努力的來對於國際"},{"start":746.061,"end":746.321,"text":"謝謝部長的說明 也謝謝昭偉 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151275","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151275","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016272e7695f537ae3614f65493343f37da33c5dab72e655c1c9474376f4625cb93f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:18:49 - 11:34:36","影片長度":"00:15:47","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員黃健豪等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條及第二百八十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（七）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（九）、（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":947,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:34:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:18:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":877,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時19分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請法務部次長。"],["主席：蔡次長。"],["黃委員國昌：以及司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：副秘書長。"],["黃委員國昌：刑事廳副廳長，或者是今天所來的刑事廳法官如果有必要的話隨時……"],["主席：請刑事廳的上台。"],["黃委員國昌：如果有必要的話，隨時上來協助，因為今天接下來我們要討論的是刑事法專業度非常高的問題，你們有需要隨時上來。我今天沒有打算要考副秘書長刑法，但專業度很高，所以刑事法官如果有必要隨時上來，不用先問，這樣可以嗎？可以嘛！好。","謝謝主席，刑事司法下面的兒少保護是一個非常重要的問題，但我今天破題，先講一件事，對面的法務部次長跟司法院同仁，大家請不要見怪，我講話比較直啦！你們今天交上來的書面報告完全不及格！我為什麼說你們今天交上來的書面報告完全不及格？因為在刑事司法的適用上，涉及的是非常專業的刑事法律之適用。司法及法制委員會的委員沒有那麼多時間去看法院的判決、去看實際操作的結果，對於牽涉到兒少保護這麼重大的事件，我期待的是法律人就應該把該處理的事情講清楚，而你們的報告沒有做到這一點。為什麼我會這樣講？我接著今天討論的問題。我先破題點一件事情，當社會上都在關注法定刑有沒有提高的時候，真正更該檢討的是實際上面實踐的結果。所謂實踐的結果是說法院的判刑最後是怎麼判的、判完以後最後關了多久。如果在形式上法條刑度不斷地提高，實際在刑事司法政策的實踐上卻根本不是這麼回事，那修法就只是打假球、做做樣子，沒有意義嘛！","我為什麼這樣講？我舉個實際的例子。之前在媒體上被揭露有情侶虐待3歲小女孩，他們虐待3歲小女孩時，七大酷刑樣樣來，從拔指甲、凌虐到燒她，結果法院判出來的是對兒童故意犯傷害罪致死，判13年6個月。這是2017年5月10號判刑確定的，結果2023年12月7號法務部矯正署核准假釋。次長，關了多久？"],["蔡次長碧仲：六年多。"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得這樣子有實踐我們刑事司法體系對兒少的保護嗎？"],["蔡次長碧仲：我認為判13年6個月只關了六年多，這是不夠的。"],["黃委員國昌：如果不夠，法務部為什麼會做這個決定？"],["蔡次長碧仲：所以這是我們要檢討的。"],["黃委員國昌：好，怎麼檢討？1個禮拜之內給報告，可以嗎？"],["蔡次長碧仲：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：太離譜了啦！","接下來，我們繼續看，我直接問，請教次長，被告餵食甲童毒品、餵他吃毒品致死觸犯什麼罪？"],["蔡次長碧仲：致死嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：對。"],["蔡次長碧仲：那是凌虐兒童致死。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那有沒有構成刑法第二百七十七條第二項前段的故意傷害兒童致死？"],["蔡次長碧仲：有，有凌虐就是傷害吧！是故意傷害。"],["黃委員國昌：好。","這是想像競合還是法條競合？"],["蔡次長碧仲：因為這是一個行為觸犯了兩個罪名，這個有可能是想像競合。但是對於這一案的罪質，兩個規定都涵攝在裡面，所以也可能是法規競合。"],["黃委員國昌：所以是想像競合還是法條競合？"],["蔡次長碧仲：有可能要看對於具體案件怎麼判斷。"],["黃委員國昌：具體案件我講得很清楚啊！今天有成年人餵一個小朋友吃毒品致死了，同時構成刑法第二百八十六條第三項跟第二百七十七條第二項前段之罪，這是想像競合還是法條競合？"],["蔡次長碧仲：如果適用這個法律的話，我會用想像競合。"],["黃委員國昌：你會用想像競合？","來，請司法院副秘書長，是想像競合還是法條競合？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：當然要看凌虐兒童罪的不法內涵是不是已經全部cover傷害兒童致死罪的內涵。如果全部cover，當然就是法規競合，如果沒有，可能應該就是想像競合。"],["黃委員國昌：那你覺得第二百八十六條的不法內涵有全部cover第二百七十七條嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我覺得應該是沒有啦！"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得應該是沒有？所以應該是想像競合還是法條競合？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：如果沒有的話，應該是想像競合啦！"],["黃委員國昌：應該是想像競合？好。","從一重處斷要從哪一個條文處斷？這個法規要很熟啦！從一重處斷是依照哪一個罪名處斷？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：凌虐兒童致死罪比較重。"],["黃委員國昌：是凌虐兒童罪致死比較重嗎？你確定嗎？最高法院的判決是這樣講的嗎？你們實際上判決是這樣用的嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，我們再確定一下。"],["黃委員國昌：刑事廳的副廳長都在這邊、刑事法官也在了，這個要很熟啦！"],["陳副廳長信旗：凌虐致死比較重。"],["黃委員國昌：凌虐致死比較重？我不跟你耗時間。","我們繼續往下看。事實上，這個題目不是新的題目啊！由於在我國實務上很亂，所以南投地方法院提案要高等法院召開座談會檢討。召開座談會檢討以後，對於到底是想像競合還是法規競合、從一重處斷到底要怎麼做處斷這件事，我們接下來看，最後採甲說。什麼是甲說？甲說跟剛剛次長所講的答案、跟刑事廳副廳長講的答案全部都不一樣，我國高等法院的座談最後要採取的是什麼？是法規競合，不是你們剛剛所想的想像競合。你們贊不贊成高等法院座談會這項結論？"],["蔡次長碧仲：我不贊成。"],["黃委員國昌：你不贊成？","來，副秘書長？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，高等法院那場座談會其實是沒有絕對拘束力的，個案法官可以做不同認定。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那你覺得辦這個座談會有什麼意義？辦這個座談會有什麼意義？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，辦座談會就是要讓大家集思廣益討論，但是本來就不應該產生一個有拘束力的……"],["黃委員國昌：我現在沒有在跟你說這個，而且我也贊成這沒有拘束力啊！但是出現了這樣的座談會，而高等法院法官大家都很忙，卻全部都到了，齊聚一堂討論到底要採法規競合還是想像競合，就代表這件事情在審判實務上已經造成了重大困擾嘛！但是討論出來是這樣的結論，兩位都表示不贊成，所以我才說這樣的討論有何意義！","為什麼這件事情在我們今天修法的時候很重要？因為按照實際上最後運作的結果，修第二百八十六條有沒有用是一個超級大問號。我為什麼說修第二百八十六條到底有沒有用是一個超級大問號？如果按照今天兩位在臺上所表示的，你們認為應該用想像競合處理從一重處斷，下一個問題：哪一個罪名比較重？關於第二百七十七條，不要忘囉！如果是對兒少犯的話，依照兒少權益保護法第一百十二條規定，要不要加重其刑二分之一？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：如果考慮到兒少加重的話……"],["黃委員國昌：當然要加重嘛！你有什麼時候用第二百七十七條？對兒少犯，結果不用依照第一百十二條加重？不要內行人講外行話嘛！所以哪一個會比較重？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：加重了以後就會變成第二百七十七條的傷害致死罪比較重。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！按照你們所講的想像競合，然後從一重處斷，結果最後我國實務上的法律適用會用哪一條？就是第二百七十七條嘛！第二百七十七條第二項加上兒少法第一百十二條嘛！為了從一重處斷嘛！那是不是把第二百八十六條給架空了？我這樣說有沒有錯？請表示意見。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員高見，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：不是我的高見啊！實務上運作出來的結果就是這樣嘛！所以我為什麼說你們今天交到立法院司法及法制委員會的報告根本不及格？你要告訴全體委員我國實務上操作適用的結果是這個樣子啊！如果今天要全面提升兒少保護的話，我們要去看加重是怎麼加重。","所謂的加重是怎麼加重？來，請教兩位，根據第二百七十七條第二項就故意對兒童犯傷害罪致死加重其刑二分之一以後，刑度、法官量刑的空間在哪裡？請說明。無期徒刑不得加重這點沒有問題嘛！有期徒刑則是7年以上有期徒刑嘛！判處7年以上有期徒刑的話，加重以後適用的結果是如何？請說明。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：加重以後就變成7年1個月以上、20年以下。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼是7年1個月以上、20年以下？這是我第二個問題。為什麼是7年1個月以上、20年以下？","再往下看。依照刑法的規定，如果加重其刑至二分之一的話，不是應該依照刑法第六十七條規定，加重其刑要同加同減，而不應該出現只加重上限、卻不加重下限的結論嗎？我有沒有說錯？如果沒有說錯的話，為什麼實務上法官對於7年以上有期徒刑加重其刑二分之一，量刑時竟然是從7年1個月開始，而不是按照立法者的意思？加重其刑至二分之一的最低刑度應該是多少？是不是10年6個月？是不是10年6個月？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是加重「至」那邊，也就是至那個標準，中間還是有一些range，是「加重至」。"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，你現在在講什麼？我已經完全聽不懂。請你具體表明你的法律見解，加重其刑二分之一的bottom line到底是7年只變成7年1個月，還是7年加重其刑二分之一要從10年6個月開始？應該是哪一個法律見解？"],["陳副廳長信旗：跟委員報告，實務上的見解的確是只要規定加重至二分之一的話，就是有加重就可以，可以加重到二分之一。"],["黃委員國昌：這個就是問題嘛！這個就是問題嘛！你們就是要告訴所有立法委員實務上的操作跟實際上修法時的想像完全不一樣嘛！當初立委在修法時，對於加重其刑二分之一，看到刑法第六十七條，大家以為的是，最低法定刑本來一般的故意傷害致死是不是7年以上有期徒刑？若依照兒少法加重其刑二分之一，最低是不是應該判10年6個月以上有期徒刑？"],["陳副廳長信旗：對。"],["黃委員國昌：但你們法院實際判決就不是這樣做啊！如果立法者修了法，法官還是我行我素、按照自己的法律見解下判決，我們當然尊重司法獨立啊！我們也不會去干預個案啊！但問題是什麼？你們實務上的操作結果荒謬到連臺大法律系的教授許恒達都看不下去啊！他直接給你們的法律意見是你們這樣的操作違反刑法第六十七條的規定啊！難道沒有檢討的必要嗎？是不是要立法者在立法的時候對於什麼叫「加重其刑至二分之一」要白紙黑字寫得很清楚，還要提供範例，法官才開得下去？需要做到這樣嗎？因為這牽涉到如果我們要有效立法的話到底要怎麼樣進行嘛！如果按照你們剛剛所講的，無論採想像競合也好、法規競合也好，最後操作出來的結果是第二百八十六條已經被架空了。當第二百八十六條已經被架空了，我們還坐在這邊討論第二百八十六條的修法，不是很荒謬嗎？","繼續往下看這件事情，最高法院的見解我直接跟你們講，是採取想像競合說，沒有關係，這是上個月月底出現的最高法院判決。接下來高等法院也跟立法者講，高等法院說，立法者在做第二百八十六條刑度修正的時候根本沒有用，輕重失衡！什麼叫輕重失衡？因為按照第二百七十七條，再加上根據兒少法第一百十二條加重其刑至二分之一，整個扭曲了嘛！我有沒有說錯？請教副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：我沒有說錯？那這是不是你們司法院在提交給司法及法制委員會的書面報告中應該告訴全體立法委員的？是不是你們應該做的？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，這部分我們應該是要檢討，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：好好檢討啊！要不然大家坐在這邊立法，卻都沒有人知道耶！你立的歸你立的，但法院有法院的玩法啊！法條競合、想像競合、加重其刑至二分之一，改了半天，還修了第二百八十六條，但第二百八十六條又用不到！","我請司法院注意喔！我請司法院注意喔！你們不會隨著政府換屆就離開位子，你們還會在你們的位子上，對於這麼嚴肅的問題，該做的事情要做好。對於今天交到本院本委員會的報告，我只能跟你說不及格！不及格！如果召委許可的話，我請召委要求你們重新提一份報告，就法律到底如何解釋適用、在實務上到底發生什麼、怎麼回事清楚地向所有立法委員報告，大家才知道接下來修法的時候要怎麼處理嘛！可以嗎？好，謝謝。"],["主席：請問一下，有沒有辦法依照委員剛剛的要求再提一份報告？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們會就相關規範作研議，跟委員會做個報告。"],["主席：這個大概需要多久時間？黃委員，你有希望他們多久內提出嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：1個月？"],["黃委員國昌：1個禮拜就交出來了啦！"],["主席：委員是希望1個禮拜內交出來。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：好，那我們儘量在1個禮拜內。"],["主席：那就麻煩1個禮拜內把報告交過來，謝謝。","接下來因為是本席詢答，那就請羅智強委員代理主席。"],["主席（羅委員智強代）：請吳宗憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-13","speakers":["吳宗憲","傅崐萁","廖偉翔","王育敏","徐欣瑩","陳超明","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","黃國昌","翁曉玲","黃健豪"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員徐巧芯等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員廖偉翔等19人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等20\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八\n十六條及第二百八十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員柯志恩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)\n委員陳超明等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14.745968750000003,"end":15.539093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15.89346875,"end":17.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.294093750000002,"end":19.454093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.35284375,"end":20.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20.04471875,"end":22.086593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.985343750000002,"end":22.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22.778468750000002,"end":25.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.86284375,"end":22.879718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":26.28846875,"end":42.555968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.50721875,"end":30.524093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.524093750000002,"end":31.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.97534375,"end":32.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":42.96096875,"end":54.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":54.891593750000006,"end":55.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":56.20784375,"end":57.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":61.37159375,"end":62.721593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":63.227843750000005,"end":67.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":68.37471875,"end":73.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":73.65659375,"end":74.77034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":74.95596875000001,"end":75.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":76.25534375000001,"end":77.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":78.07784375,"end":83.17409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":83.20784375000001,"end":87.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":88.50659375000001,"end":95.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":96.25221875000001,"end":103.67721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":103.99784375,"end":114.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":114.96659375,"end":117.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":117.78471875000001,"end":121.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":121.32846875000001,"end":123.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":123.89346875000001,"end":124.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":125.36159375000001,"end":138.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":138.82784375,"end":139.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":140.58284375,"end":141.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":142.11846875,"end":143.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":144.34596875,"end":148.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":148.49721875,"end":153.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":154.18409375000002,"end":165.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":166.33409375000002,"end":167.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":167.80221875,"end":194.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.64159375,"end":197.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.34596875000003,"end":199.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":199.96596875,"end":200.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.03346875000003,"end":200.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":200.35409375,"end":203.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.03721875000002,"end":203.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":203.07096875000002,"end":203.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.15534375000001,"end":203.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.62784375,"end":209.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.09096875,"end":212.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.74034375000002,"end":214.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":215.60909375,"end":219.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":219.38909375,"end":224.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":225.44721875000002,"end":227.87721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":228.18096875,"end":229.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":230.00346875000002,"end":230.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.80471875,"end":233.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.98596875,"end":234.25596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.37409375000001,"end":235.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":235.75784375,"end":241.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.19159375,"end":243.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":241.61346875,"end":242.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.89159375000003,"end":244.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.63409375,"end":244.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.95471875,"end":245.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.03909375,"end":245.14034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.74784375000002,"end":248.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.15659375,"end":251.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.13096875000002,"end":262.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.53846875,"end":266.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":266.28471875,"end":268.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.34346875,"end":271.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":270.79034375000003,"end":270.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":270.80721875,"end":272.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":273.23721875,"end":283.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.51409375000003,"end":286.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":286.26471875000004,"end":289.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":289.92659375,"end":291.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.02346875,"end":291.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.10784375000003,"end":291.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.69409375000004,"end":293.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.55034375,"end":307.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":307.51034375,"end":312.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.50971875000005,"end":315.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":314.44596875,"end":317.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.33159375,"end":319.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":319.42409375,"end":323.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":327.27096875,"end":328.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":331.37159375000005,"end":335.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":337.14284375,"end":339.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":339.28596875,"end":340.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":343.09971875,"end":345.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":346.76159375000003,"end":349.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.30471875,"end":357.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":356.95409375,"end":361.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":371.21346875,"end":372.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":372.96846875,"end":375.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":375.63471875000005,"end":377.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":377.57534375,"end":416.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":416.99534375,"end":419.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":420.23534375,"end":423.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.06159375000004,"end":425.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":425.26409375000003,"end":425.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.28096875,"end":425.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":425.36534375,"end":427.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.94721875000005,"end":427.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.48721875,"end":431.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.62159375000005,"end":437.51534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":434.89971875000003,"end":435.25409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":437.41409375,"end":440.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":441.78471875,"end":443.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.26971875000004,"end":443.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.42159375000006,"end":443.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.18096875000003,"end":452.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":451.52159375,"end":455.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":456.11159375000005,"end":471.29909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":471.83909375,"end":484.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":484.71471875000003,"end":491.16096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":491.32971875000004,"end":498.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":498.23159375000006,"end":507.47909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":508.05284375,"end":509.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":510.01034375000006,"end":521.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.25721875,"end":527.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":524.65784375,"end":533.7703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":534.25971875,"end":538.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.14909375,"end":545.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":545.02596875,"end":545.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.51534375,"end":545.5322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":545.5322187500001,"end":545.7178437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":545.88659375,"end":548.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":548.7722187500001,"end":554.6784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":555.0834687500001,"end":565.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":566.5247187500001,"end":568.0772187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":569.81534375,"end":570.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.77721875,"end":571.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":572.09346875,"end":583.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":583.9397187500001,"end":586.0490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":586.2009687500001,"end":605.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":606.0459687499999,"end":606.6028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":607.09221875,"end":615.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":615.96846875,"end":627.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.29284375,"end":619.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.59096875,"end":634.1428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":634.1597187500001,"end":638.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":638.98596875,"end":642.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":643.05284375,"end":644.2847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":645.06096875,"end":652.3172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":653.0090937500001,"end":662.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":663.99471875,"end":664.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":666.17159375,"end":686.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":688.04159375,"end":689.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.3659687500001,"end":697.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":698.33534375,"end":716.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":720.4584687500001,"end":726.8203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":727.46159375,"end":730.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":727.47846875,"end":728.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":729.30096875,"end":729.8915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":730.0434687500001,"end":739.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":730.98846875,"end":731.3090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":731.3428437500002,"end":731.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":739.79721875,"end":758.3090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":758.68034375,"end":761.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":762.57846875,"end":763.4053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":763.7934687500001,"end":765.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":765.4809687500001,"end":772.6359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":772.99034375,"end":791.6709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":792.31221875,"end":795.4678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":795.94034375,"end":803.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":804.0065937500001,"end":804.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":804.05721875,"end":805.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":806.4365937500002,"end":824.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":824.93159375,"end":832.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":832.5590937500001,"end":835.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":836.9465937500001,"end":839.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":839.8659687500001,"end":846.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":846.81846875,"end":849.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":849.1640937500001,"end":855.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":856.23471875,"end":867.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":867.2878437500001,"end":869.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":870.8315937500001,"end":871.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":871.86096875,"end":879.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":880.1297187500002,"end":881.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":882.7790937500001,"end":885.0065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":885.1584687500001,"end":886.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":887.4197187500001,"end":892.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":892.53284375,"end":901.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":902.55659375,"end":904.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":904.61534375,"end":906.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":906.5222187500001,"end":908.2434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":909.25596875,"end":914.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":914.4028437500001,"end":915.9890937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":916.29284375,"end":917.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":917.99721875,"end":921.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":921.77721875,"end":922.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":922.8234687500001,"end":925.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":926.3840937500001,"end":929.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":929.82659375,"end":939.4284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":939.4790937500002,"end":940.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":941.63909375,"end":942.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":942.9890937500002,"end":947.4778437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.851,"end":7.766,"text":"三）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具 «中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":16.319,"end":32.826,"text":"二）委員蔡次長及司法院副秘書長、刑事廳副廳長或是今天所來的刑事廳法官,如果有必要的話,隨時上來協助。接下來我們要討論的是刑事法專業度非常高的問題。"},{"start":43.491,"end":45.894,"text":"刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案 刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案"},{"start":61.957,"end":87.338,"text":"謝謝主席行司司法下面的兒少保護是一個非常重要的問題但我今天破題我先講一件事請對面法務部的次長跟司法院的同仁大家不要見怪我講話比較直你們今天交上來的書面報告完全不及格我為什麼說你們今天交上來的書面報告完全不及格因為"},{"start":88.599,"end":95.157,"text":"在刑事司法的適用上涉及到的是非常專業的刑事法律的適用"},{"start":96.331,"end":118.726,"text":"事由法制委員會的委員沒有那麼多時間去看法院的判決去看實際操作的結果牽涉到兒少保護這麼重大的事件我期待的是法律人就應該要把該處理的事情講清楚而你們的報告沒有做到這一點為什麼我會這樣講我們接著今天討論的問題我先破題點一件事情"},{"start":124.139,"end":143.38,"text":"當社會上都在關注法定期有沒有提高的時候真正更該檢討的是我們實際上面實踐的結果所謂實踐的結果是說法院的判刑最後怎麼判的判完了以後最後關了多久"},{"start":144.383,"end":148.826,"text":"二）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具"},{"start":167.85,"end":193.552,"text":"虐待三歲的小女孩虐待三歲的小女孩有七大酷刑樣樣來從拔指甲淋虐燒他結果我們的法院判出來的對兒童故意犯傷害罪致死判13年6個月這個是在2017年5月10號判刑確定的結果2023年12月7號法務部矯正組合准假釋來次長關了多久"},{"start":196.63,"end":212.309,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13屆第16條條文修正草案．立法院第17條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第19條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第19條條文修正草案．立法院第20條條文修正草案．立法院第21條條文修正草案．立法院第22條條文修正草案．立法院第23條條文修正草案．立法院第24條條文修正草案．立法院第25條條文修正草案．立"},{"start":215.68,"end":230.72,"text":"怎麼檢討一個禮拜之內給報告可以嗎可以太離譜了啦接下來我們繼續看我直接問請教次長被告餵食甲酮毒品餵他吃毒品致死觸犯什麼罪"},{"start":232.807,"end":233.067,"text":"法條禁核"},{"start":249.212,"end":272.488,"text":"因為這個是一個行為齁那麼出犯了兩個罪名啦齁那麼這個有可能是想像競合但是對於這一項這個罪質啊那麼兩個規定的都含設在裡面所以也有可能是法規競合那所以是想像競合還是法條競合有可能看具體案件齁他們怎麼樣去判決具體案件我講得很清楚啊"},{"start":273.388,"end":286.535,"text":"今天我成年人就是為一個小朋友為他吃毒品死了然後同時構成286第三項跟277第二項前端是想像競合還是法條競合你會用想像競合來請司法院副秘書長是想像競合還是法條競合"},{"start":295.358,"end":307.382,"text":"那個當然看那個傷害那個凌虐兒童罪的這個不法內涵是不是已經全部cover傷害兒童誓死罪的這個內涵了如果是全部cover當然就法規禁核如果沒有可能應該就想讓禁核"},{"start":307.822,"end":322.23,"text":"你覺得286的不法內還有全部cover嗎277條我們是覺得應該是沒有啦你覺得應該是沒有所以是想像進而還法條進而如果沒有的話應該是想像進而應該是想像進而好從一眾處斷從哪一個條文處斷這個法官要很熟啦從一眾處斷是依照哪一個罪名處斷"},{"start":337.142,"end":340.103,"text":"是李聶宥同自己錯比較重嗎?你確定嗎?最高法院的判決是這樣講的嗎?你們實際上面判決是這樣用的嗎?刑事廳的副廳長都在這邊,刑事法官也在了這個要很熟啦"},{"start":371.257,"end":376.638,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":400.623,"end":422.483,"text":"最後才假說什麼是假說假說跟剛剛次長所講的答案跟巡視廳副廳長講的答案全部都不一樣我國高等法院的座談最後要採取的是什麼是法規競合不是你們剛剛所想的想像競合來戰不戰成這一個高等法院座談會的結論"},{"start":425.343,"end":437.311,"text":"二）委員高等法院座談會其實是沒有絕對技術力的,各案的法官是可以做不同的認定那辦這個座談會有什麼意義"},{"start":444.172,"end":465.063,"text":"三）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員會及法律委員"},{"start":472.092,"end":484.141,"text":"條文書來是這樣子的結論兩位都表示不贊成所以我才說這樣的討論有何意義為什麼這件事情在我們今天修法的時候很重要"},{"start":484.892,"end":505.368,"text":"因為按照實際最後運作的結果你修兩百八十六條有沒有用啊是一個超級大問號我為什麼說修兩百六十六 八十六條到底有沒有用是個超級大問號如果按照今天兩位在上面所表示的你們認為應該用想像進合處理從一重處斷下一個問題"},{"start":508.126,"end":521.238,"text":"哪一個罪名比較重?兩百七十七條不要忘囉你如果是對於兒少犯的話依照兒少權益保護法一百一十二條的規定要不要加重刑刑二分之一?"},{"start":525.015,"end":538.119,"text":"當然要加重嘛你有什麼時候用277條結果是對俄哨犯的不用依照112條加重不要內行人講外行話嘛所以哪一個會比你比較重"},{"start":540.162,"end":558.332,"text":"加重了以後就會變成那個那個277條的傷害制止比較重對嘛按照你們所講的想像進合然後從一種阻斷結果最後我國實務上面的法律適用的會用哪一條就277條嘛277條第二項加上兒少法112條嘛從一種阻斷嘛是不是把286條給架空了我這樣說有沒有錯"},{"start":570.001,"end":582.97,"text":"請表示意見。不是我的高見啦這個是實務上面運作出來的結果就是這樣嘛所以我為什麼說你們今天交到立法院司法法制委員會的報告根本不及格"},{"start":584.108,"end":604.073,"text":"二）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條條文修正草案．一）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中"},{"start":606.089,"end":627.229,"text":"而同犯傷害罪致死加重期刑二分之一以後他的刑度法官在量刑的空間在哪裡請說明無期徒刑不得加重嘛這個沒有問題嘛有期徒刑是七年以上有期徒刑嘛那七年以上有期徒刑的話加重以後適用的結果是如何請說明"},{"start":628.686,"end":651.904,"text":"加重以後就變成七年一月以上然後二十年以下為什麼是七年一個月以上二十年以下這個是我第二個問題為什麼是七年一個月以上二十年以下來再往下看我們依照刑法的規定如果加重期刑至二分之一的話不是依照"},{"start":653.089,"end":662.663,"text":"刑法三十六條的規定加重期刑要同加同減不應該出現只有加重上限卻不加重下限的結論嗎我有沒有說錯"},{"start":666.206,"end":686.495,"text":"那如果沒有說錯的話為什麼我們實務上的法官七年以上有期徒刑加重期刑二分之一竟然量刑的時候是從七年一個月開始而不是按照立法者的意思我們加重期刑之二分之一最低的刑度應該是多少是不是十年六個月是不是十年六個月"},{"start":691.554,"end":716.023,"text":"加重至那一邊喔至到那個那中間還是有一些的 range加重至啊對不起你現在在講什麼我已經完全聽不懂請你具體表明你的法律見解加重期刑二分之一那個button line到底是七年只變成七年一個月還是七年加重期刑二分之一要從十年六個月開始應該是哪一個法律見解"},{"start":720.495,"end":726.684,"text":"三）委員實務上的見解的確是說只要是加重至二分之一的話就是有加重就可以"},{"start":727.826,"end":751.525,"text":"這個就是問題嘛 這個就是問題嘛你們就要告訴所有的立法委員嘛我們實務上面的操作跟你們實際上面在修法的想像完全不一樣嘛當初立委在修法的時候加重刑刑二分之一看到刑法36條大家以為的是最低法定刑本來一般的故意傷害致死是不是七年以上有期徒刑"},{"start":752.245,"end":761.239,"text":"依照兒少法加重期刑二分之一是不是應該最低是十年六個月以上有期徒刑但你們法院實際的判決就不是這樣做啊"},{"start":762.691,"end":788.291,"text":"如果立法者修了法法官還是我刑我訴按照自己的法律見解來下判決我們當然尊重司法獨立我們也不會去干預個案但問題是什麼你們實務上面操作的結果荒謬到連台大法律系的教授許恆達都看不下去了直接給你們的法律意見是你們這樣的操作是違反刑法36條的規定難道沒有檢討的必要嗎"},{"start":792.412,"end":805.154,"text":"是不是要立法者在立法的時候叫什麼叫做加重期刑至二分之一要白紙黑字寫得很清楚還要提供範例法官才看得下去"},{"start":806.519,"end":827.315,"text":"需要做到這樣嗎?因為這牽涉到我們如果要有效立法的話到底要怎麼樣進行嗎?如果按照你們剛剛所講的想像競合也好法規競合也好最後操作出來的結果是286條已經被架空了當286條已經被架空了我們坐在這邊討論286條的修法不是很荒謬嗎?而這一件事情來我繼續往下看"},{"start":836.994,"end":855.274,"text":"最高法院的見解我直接跟你們講啊採取想像進合說好沒有關係這個是上個月月底出現的最高法院判決接下來高等法院也跟立法者講啊高等法院說立法者在做286條刑度修正的時候根本沒有用"},{"start":856.555,"end":880.846,"text":"輕重失衡。」什麼叫輕重失衡?因為你按照277條再加上俄哨法112條加重其刑之二分之一整個扭曲完了嘛!我有沒有說錯?來請教副廳長我沒有說錯!那這個是不是應該你們司法院提交給司法法制委員會的書院報告應該要告訴全體立法委員的?是不是你們應該做的?"},{"start":883.439,"end":901.389,"text":"這部分我們應該是要檢討好好檢討啊要不然大家坐在這邊立法都沒有人知道欸你立歸你的啊法院有法院的玩法啊法條進合想像進合加重期刑吃二分之一搞了半天修286286用不到啊我請司法院注意喔我請司法院注意喔你們不會隨著"},{"start":909.318,"end":924.941,"text":"政府換卸就離開位置你們還會在我的位置上這麼嚴肅的問題該做的事情要做好交到本院本委員會今天的報告我只能跟你說不及格不及格如果召委許可的話我希望"},{"start":926.631,"end":938.985,"text":"請召委要求你們重新提一份報告就法律到底如何解釋適用在實務上到底發生怎麼回事清楚的跟所有的立法委員報告大家才知道接下來修法說要怎麼處理嘛可以嗎好謝謝請問一下那剛剛有沒有辦法依照委員的那個要求的時候再提"}]}},{"id":"151274","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151274","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627c250703e4b883f35068d0b55d8f96a4ec5dab72e655c1c94e168438cab24f24f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"11:12:38 - 11:30:58","影片長度":"00:18:20","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":1100,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:30:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:12:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":216,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（11時12分）謝謝主席。麻煩請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：馬委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好。部長，不知道您現在的心情怎麼樣？如果真的沒有負擔的話，我覺得可以做更多，但現在可能比較不容易，就您的規劃，如果現在要做一些修正，我覺得可以立下長期規範，這樣也是好的。剛剛王委員有提到編現比或業務問題，其實這些一直都存在。剛才說要精簡一項業務時，底下有人在笑，因為精簡一項業務就是又多了一項業務！所以我們很期待，因為我們人就是不多，而且是越來越少，所以是不是應該整併一些單位？剛剛聽起來，海軍要成立濱海指揮部，如此勢必又要增加人。這就跟煮菜一樣，一個廚師可以煮給五個人吃，但煮給一個人吃也需要一個廚師，所以如果沒有改善方式的話，我想問題還是會不斷、不斷發生。本席上一次提到，因國軍單位編現比不足，影響到官兵調職、受訓的權益。部長那時候也表示，絕對不會因為編現比而影響官兵的相關權益。不過我們有接到陳情表示，現在不是以編現比為理由，而是以陸海空軍軍官士官任職條例來做規範！但有時候曲解法令或誤導解釋，以致對軍士官兵的權益造成嚴重損害。像剛剛提到的受軍官士官基礎教育期滿任職未滿五年的，像這一個他就不可以動，或者他不可以到其他軍事單位以外的機構去調整，這個在第二十三條，這些機構指的是總統府、國家安全會議以及所屬單位，還有其他非軍事機構。照理說，如果是我們的國軍弟兄，不管是在哪一個單位，他其實就是在我們國軍相關的單位裡面，就是在軍事單位啊，為什麼不讓他有機會去考試呢？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告兩個問題，第一個，剛才委員已經提醒了，很多地方在退、在離開之前，可以做一些改進，事實上，我要跟委員報告，這有很多地方不用改進，以前的規範都有，欠缺就是一個落實執行，在這一方面我會強化，但絕對不會像委員講的，研究一下怎麼樣減輕，反而這個又變成一個工作，我們絕對不會這樣做的，這是第一個。第二個，至於人員調整的問題，有時候這個範疇不太好拿捏，譬如國家安全方面的單位，在這個不管是……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我指的不是國家安全單位，我講的就是說，其實基層的弟兄他們想要調單位，或者想要有一個機會去參加甄選，像這樣子，我們的單位不同意，他就完全沒有辦法去，主要是這樣，他們就拿這些相關的規定來限制，可是事實上，這些規定並沒有辦法限制這個部分，因為它是不相干的。"],["邱部長國正：沒錯、沒錯，像委員也有跟我提到有些單位主官就拿著編現比不夠，所以不放人，這一點我們講真的，這也就是我們規定以後有沒有落實的主要焦點嘛，我們很多規定，我很清楚，誠如委員剛剛講的，只要符合的，你為什麼不讓他調？但他在執行當中假如有困難的話，我們就要從這一方面來檢討。現在很多執行不當的問題，我不怪基層的，我一再強調，基層畢竟經驗不夠，我從中、高層開始去做要求，我想現在在座各位都是聯參次長以上的同仁，還有各軍種最起碼參謀長以上的同仁，我想這個部分他們在聽了以後，回去真的要務實的去做，就是務實這兩個字。"],["馬委員文君：部長，因為待會兒我有其他的議題，部長您說的，我相信在場的也聽到了，陸軍參謀長也在後面，陸軍已經發生很多次類似這樣的案子，就像編現比，之前不是用編現比嗎？但現在換成用其他的條例來限制，可是到最後才發現，這個並不是要限制他們，不可以這樣限制他們，可是他們的權益已經受損了啊，這個部分，我們希望不管是哪一個軍種，參謀長這邊其實也可以特別去關注一下，好不好？不要影響到我們所有軍士官兵的權益，因為不管部長也好、司令也好、參謀長也好，當你們的辦公室，當你們要去挑幕僚的時候，你們還不是從各個地方去挑的嗎？那時候有考慮到編現比嗎？所以我們希望，就他們在他們的規劃裡面，或者他們有機會可以去調整職務，或者可以升遷的，就不要影響他們，這樣好不好？"],["邱部長國正：這一定的，假如他一切工作正常運作，我們當然要維護他的權益嘛，我們強調，官兵的權益我們要注意，不要去剝奪。但我要跟委員多講一句，我們用這個人與否，放不放他平常也是列為考核當中的，我們也可以發現有些同仁，他正事不做，他搞他自己的……"],["馬委員文君：那個我同意，部長。"],["邱部長國正：如果是這種狀況的話……"],["馬委員文君：部長，我同意這一點，可是我們接到的資訊，其實他是符合的。"],["邱部長國正：我瞭解。"],["馬委員文君：所以我們是針對正常的狀況來提醒的，這個部分我相信其他在座的各位，我相信他們都已經聽到了，這個部分我們希望也不要再發生，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：好的。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝，接下來我想要請教的是，我們今天其實是針對潛艦的部分，那我想請教部長，因為這一次我們的潛艦小組已經要解散了，是不是？"],["邱部長國正：沒有啊。"],["馬委員文君：沒有嗎？所以這只是報紙提的？"],["邱部長國正：委員剛剛講說……"],["馬委員文君：就是潛艦小組未來將改成什麼什麼國家進步辦公室。"],["邱部長國正：沒有，我一再表達我不知道這件事情。"],["馬委員文君：沒有這個部分？"],["邱部長國正：我完全沒有聽過。"],["馬委員文君：那後續艦2,800億這個部分也是？海軍有預估出來嗎？有嗎？"],["邱部長國正：海軍有沒有講過這個？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，這個部分整體目前還在編製跟評估作業階段。"],["馬委員文君：2,800億是我們那裡已經初估出來的嗎？有這個數字嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，這個數字目前我們還沒有確定，因為我們還在整體的規劃中。"],["馬委員文君：有嗎？有這個數字嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：宥於職責，這個部分我們還沒有確切的案，我不會，我們這邊數字不方便……"],["馬委員文君：所以報紙為什麼會知道？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：這個我們不予評論。"],["馬委員文君：2,800億不是你們訂的？不是嗎？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，這整個的評估作業都還在持續進行中，然後還要再把這個預算送到國防部去。"],["馬委員文君：所以其實是有這個數字，可是有人已經先給了媒體，是不是？你只是還沒確定嘛，可是已經有這個預估的數字了。我想請教一下，像這樣的預估是怎麼預估的？我們現在因為也沒時間，就這個部分，我希望以後我可能私底下，希望你們把這樣子相關的評估，還有這樣的預算估計，把它提供給我們委員會，好不好？","接下來我想要討論的是，這一次我們的原型艦，海鯤號原型艦，其實大家都希望我們的國防戰力是可以增強的，可是在有限的預算底下，我們在乎的並不是誰的豐功偉業，我們在乎的是一個真正能夠作戰的國防武器的研發，包括我們的裝備。今天如果潛艦可以成功，我相信大家都樂見，可是因為在這個過程當中，我們也不斷地提醒，而且過去的紛紛擾擾是我們造成的嗎？這個部分，我們還是希望可以去查察清楚，因為原型艦如果沒有成功，後續艦其實就不用談了，原型艦發生了問題，你都不敢去面對、不敢去解決，你就不可能造出一個成功的，我們後續的其他的潛艦，甚至你還要成立艦隊。如果它是不能作戰的，要怎麼成立艦隊？所以就我們初步看到，現在因為整個型體也出來了，我們看到這整體的部分有三項，大家可以來討論，因為在海軍有相關的退員，其實大家都在關注，也很希望它可以成功，可是他們的看法，有很多人專業的看法，認為我們整體後勤支援，這個部分並沒有建立一個完整的、健全的後勤的支援。另外，我們也看到，現在聽到有很多其實是說這個部分我們捨棄軍規改商售，可是商售應該比較便宜，我們反而更貴，顯然我們在跟美國有史以來關係這麼好的情況之下，如果我們可以選擇軍規，我們有更好的保障，而且美國可以讓我們的系統整合，可以做一個有效的整合，可能對我們還是更有保障的。現在看起來，我們這個海鯤艦，包括它的設備來源，它是八國聯軍，包括它的技術顧問還高達17國，未來我們後勤支援這些相關的建立，到底要怎麼做我覺得很懷疑，因為潛艦從建案、服勤到除役，它至少可能需要40年以上的全壽期，從無到有，而且這中間我們的OID級保養、保修跟零附件的需求，它的基本配賦，都是必須要有相關的完整後勤支援的配合，這麼多的國家，我們無法想像，而且它後面是不是可以拿得到？完全不知道！這是第一點。","第二個，可以軍規，我們不用，因為美國根本不害怕中共的打壓，如果現在因為這個媒體也都披露了，還有很多的什麼名嘴，還有我們所謂的顧問都可以在直播，或者在很多媒體上面都可以公開講了。我們剛剛做了很多的樣子，簽了很多的文書，我都覺得在媒體上面講的那個，都比我們剛剛的機密報告還要多、還要深入、還要廣泛。所以就這個部分，我們很希望它是可以成功的，如果可以採，後面的這7艘如果可以讓它更健全，我們希望是採取這樣的模式。","第三個，就是用人不當的問題，像這個部分，我們為什麼會覺得紛紛擾擾？在這一次的潛艦國造裡面，因為有人爆料，如果聽過錄音檔的就不難發現，光是技協這塊大餅，我稍微提示一下內容，IDS聘用兩家技協公司，其中GL是詐騙集團，SI是拿錢不做事，都沒有盡責，所以台船急著找新團隊，可是原型艦的技協預算都已經被GL和SI用完了，在第2到第8艘的預算還沒有確定的情況之下，所以把目標放在海龍及海虎艦的延壽案，這個都是在錄音檔裡面提到的，包括我們海龍、海虎的延壽案都已經被覬覦，所以在延壽案的主合約商是中科院，台船是次合約商，等到台船與中科院簽約以後，就可以撥一些預算來聘請新的團隊，接下來新的團隊的合約是5年，這個技協開價是4億，可是我們有顧問允諾它3億，在這個顧問和廠長的對話當中，又希望他可以編列4到4.5億，他同時補上一句，否則我們要吃什麼？如果一個3億可以做的案子要編到4.5億，這中間的利潤被誰拿走，我們不應該瞭解嗎？","另外，一開始韓方的技協表示只負責延壽案，不收拾我們原型艦的爛攤子，這個郭顧問表示，必須先處理原型艦，可是也不用擔心，技協顧問只提供建議，不會要求他們扛責任，如果處理完延壽案與原型艦，自然而然就會承接第2艘到第8艘的技協新合約，至少20年，預算初估140億，而且還可以保證「這筆錢都是我們的」。","在這裡我們要提出來的是這中間已經有這麼多的問題，這個部分其實我也提供給國防部，也提供給調查局，原型艦花了530億，剛剛大家都說，這個當然不是用除的算1艘多少，當然不是，可是它的預算就是編這麼多，就是造出這1艘艦，它到底用在哪裡，必須讓大家清清楚楚，那裡面有沒有不法或者有沒有弊端，都應該查清楚，甚至連SI和GL都是一家新華荷公司找來的，這個部分我們請海軍及國防部都徹查清楚，這個到底是誰的公司？他們到底是不是真的拿錢不辦事，是不是真的一點都不專業？這個部分也請查清楚……"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["馬委員文君：邵中將（邵參事）也在這裡，我相信對整個潛艦國造建案的過程你也非常清楚，我記得我們去台船的時候我還請教，因為你說我們劍龍級潛艦的延壽案延宕了3年，可是我們的IDS可以順利，甚至超前，我不知道什麼原因，又有俄烏戰爭，又有疫情，可是我們居然沒有受到影響，到底是什麼原因？這個部分也請提供給我們委員會，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["馬委員文君：就我們剛剛提出來的，在你整體後勤支援的部分，在你可以走軍規，而不是用商售的手段，因為沒有比較便宜，人家商售是可以比較便宜、比較容易取得，可是顯然我們好像是背道而馳，另外，有沒有用人不當，這三個部分，我們請你查察清楚，後續艦才有可能成功，我們希望它成功，可是不要拿很多冠冕堂皇的理由把責任都推給別人，把污水都往別人身上潑，結果花了錢的人一點責任都沒有，然後說辭職就辭職，如果出問題怎麼辦？誰負責？台船嗎？邵參事嗎？海軍嗎？這個絕對機密的案子當時不是說部長只知道進度，總統也只知道進度嗎？那你們可以掌握什麼？如果你們沒有查清楚，那你們可以掌握什麼？我想因為時間的關係，這個案子未來還要花費非常高的預算，那它前面應該要查清楚的，我們還是希望國防部可以查清楚。部長，您是最沒有負擔的，今天如果對我們國家、對我們的國軍、對我們的國防安全，還有對人民的預算，是有幫助的，我們也請部長可以多費心，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：是，這是我的職責，我一定要在最後一刻讓海軍這些專案人員能夠儘量朝這個方向去努力。我要簡單跟委員報告，我已經發覺為什麼會讓人家產生有沒有弊端的疑惑呢？就是在一個編組當中，為了便宜行事，人員儘量減少，只有我們幾個知道，這樣工作進度會快，但是這一快，很多該要督管的單位就等於是沒有參與，一沒有參與，就容易有弊端，所以我們基本上已經發覺這個問題，以後要防堵弊端發生就在這個最基本的，我們會朝這個方向努力。所以剛剛委員講的，原來有的那些弊端，認為還有疑問，我們要查，我們同步來進行，到時候有結果的話，單獨再跟委員做報告。"],["馬委員文君：好，謝謝部長，因為它全壽期的預算可能會耗費高達上兆，這是非常高的經費，所以其實我們也承擔很大的風險，我在選舉的時候也被打得非常嚴重，可是只要是對的事情、我們覺得應該講的、應該要查清楚的，這是我們的職責，跟部長一樣，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：瞭解，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員。各位請回座。","下一位是沈伯洋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-13","speakers":["馬文君","林楚茵","黃仁","陳永康","羅美玲","王定宇","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","李柏毅","洪孟楷","羅智強","林憶君","王鴻薇","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢（含秘密會議）","agenda_id":"1133001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.14909375000000002,"end":2.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.320343750000003,"end":12.164093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.164093750000003,"end":13.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.53096875,"end":22.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.925968750000003,"end":47.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.922218750000006,"end":157.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.30159375000002,"end":160.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.73159375,"end":182.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.73221875000002,"end":221.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.46471875,"end":246.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.29096875000002,"end":226.57784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.26846875,"end":235.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.04034375,"end":237.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.81659375,"end":238.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.67596875,"end":272.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.13159375,"end":247.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.47784375000003,"end":295.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.65159375,"end":295.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.47846875000005,"end":355.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.42346875000004,"end":297.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.21596875,"end":370.08284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.00909375000003,"end":356.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.31909375000004,"end":376.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.98471875,"end":393.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.38971875000004,"end":379.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.08534375000005,"end":383.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.12721875,"end":383.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.40971875,"end":384.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.78096875,"end":384.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.04659375,"end":386.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.08034375,"end":386.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.02471875000003,"end":391.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.08346875,"end":393.70784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.26909375,"end":407.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.06221875,"end":394.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.73096875000005,"end":409.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.11909375000005,"end":408.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.06409375000004,"end":410.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.62909375000004,"end":412.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.43909375000004,"end":413.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.14784375000005,"end":420.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.63659375000003,"end":421.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.60659375,"end":427.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.09909375,"end":429.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.53346875000005,"end":429.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.60096875000005,"end":429.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.93846875,"end":430.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.49096875000004,"end":435.86159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.50721875000005,"end":438.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.62909375000004,"end":439.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.66284375000004,"end":443.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.52284375000005,"end":447.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.37909375000004,"end":451.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.79596875000004,"end":452.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.93471875,"end":456.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.55471875,"end":458.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.73971875,"end":460.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.79034375000003,"end":465.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.84034375000005,"end":508.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.50846875,"end":508.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.99346875000003,"end":512.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.3897187499999,"end":526.8347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.91909375,"end":534.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.7322187500001,"end":581.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.1003437500001,"end":588.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.4240937500001,"end":594.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.1615937500001,"end":620.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.99721875,"end":624.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.8447187500001,"end":626.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.93721875,"end":655.1184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.16471875,"end":656.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.41784375,"end":682.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":683.99159375,"end":695.7197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":695.9053437500002,"end":696.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":697.1203437500001,"end":722.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":723.95159375,"end":731.6128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.64221875,"end":738.3290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":739.15596875,"end":771.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":772.02846875,"end":777.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":779.0147187500002,"end":782.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":783.0984687499999,"end":785.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":785.91659375,"end":787.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":788.5490937500001,"end":789.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":792.0422187500001,"end":804.1584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":804.4453437500001,"end":814.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":815.2453437500001,"end":821.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":821.9953437500001,"end":823.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":825.5559687500001,"end":827.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":827.85096875,"end":834.1284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":834.76971875,"end":855.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":856.97721875,"end":872.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":873.2278437500001,"end":888.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":888.2297187500001,"end":888.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":889.29284375,"end":907.3828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":907.9397187500001,"end":919.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":919.7522187500001,"end":931.3959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":932.08784375,"end":987.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":988.0790937500001,"end":988.8215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":989.8172187500002,"end":991.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":992.1965937500001,"end":1028.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1027.83659375,"end":1028.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1028.1909687500001,"end":1028.2247187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1028.2247187500002,"end":1078.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1078.34346875,"end":1098.5428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1098.6440937500001,"end":1098.6778437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1098.6778437500002,"end":1099.6565937500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.111,"end":1.892,"text":"馬文君好部長好部長現在您的心情不知道怎麼樣不過真的如果是沒有負擔的話我覺得真的可以做更多"},{"start":24.373,"end":45.828,"text":"現在可能比較不容易,時間,如果就您的規劃,如果說像現在做一些修正,我覺得是可以立下這個長期的規範,我覺得這個也是好的,因為剛剛其實王委員有提到的就是像邊線筆或者像這樣業務的問題,其實它一直存在。"},{"start":47.964,"end":48.004,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":78.524,"end":84.865,"text":"這跟煮菜一樣一個廚師煮給五個人吃還是一個廚師可以煮煮給一個人吃也是要一個廚師所以變成說我們在這個部分如果沒有一個改善的方式我想它其實還是會不斷不斷的發生因為本席在上一次也就國軍跟單位邊線比不足的問題影響到官兵調職授訓這樣子的權益部長"},{"start":105.569,"end":109.131,"text":"那時候也表示絕對不會因為邊線筆的問題來影響官兵他的相關的權益不過接下來我們又接到的陳情他可能不是以邊線筆為理由而是以陸海空軍軍官士官任職條例來做規範因為有時候曲解法令或者他的解釋其實是誤導的"},{"start":132.601,"end":132.641,"text":"這個在第23條"},{"start":160.811,"end":177.222,"text":"那這些機構指的是總統府國家安全會議以及所屬單位還有其他非軍事機構照理說如果是我們國軍弟兄不管是在哪一個單位其實他其實就是在我們的國軍相關的單位裡面就是在軍事單位啊那為什麼不讓他有機會去做考試呢"},{"start":183.769,"end":209.85,"text":"我跟委員報告兩個問題第一個剛才委員已經提醒了很多地方在退之前在離開之前可以做一些改進事實上我要跟委員報告這有很多地方不用改進以前的規範都有欠缺就一個落實執行這方面我會強化但絕對不會像委員講的研究一下怎麼樣減輕反正反而這個又變成一個工作我們絕對不會這樣做第一個"},{"start":210.45,"end":213.751,"text":"至於人員調整的問題,有時候這個範疇不太好拿捏,譬如說國家安全方面的單位,你譬如說在這個不管是……部長,我指的不是國家安全單位,我講的就是說其實基層的弟兄他想要調單位,或者想要有一個"},{"start":229.458,"end":229.498,"text":"沒錯沒錯"},{"start":249.543,"end":266.896,"text":"有些單位主管就拿著邊線筆不夠,所以不放人。這也就是我們規定以後有沒有落實的主要焦點。我們很多規定都很清楚,只要符合的,你為什麼不讓它掉,但它在執行當中有困難的話,我們要從這一方面來檢討。"},{"start":272.8,"end":292.913,"text":"執行不當的問題我不怪基層的我一直在強調基層畢竟經驗不夠我從中高層開始要求我們現在在座各位都是聯參次長以上同仁還有各軍總最起碼參謀長以上同仁我想這個他們要聽了以後回去真的要務實的去做就是務實這兩個字"},{"start":295.955,"end":301.719,"text":"因為待會我有其他的議題部長您說的我相信在場的也聽到陸軍參謀長也在後面陸軍已經發生很多次類似這樣的案子就像邊線筆之前不是用邊線筆你現在換成用其他的條例來限制可是到最後才發現這個不是要限制他們不可以這樣限制他們可是他們的權益已經受損了這個部分我們希望不管是哪一個軍種"},{"start":324.216,"end":332.545,"text":"我們參謀長這邊其實也可以特別去關注一下好不好不要影響到我們所有的軍事官兵的權益因為像不管部長也好司令也好參謀長也好當你們的辦公室當你們要挑幕僚的時候你們還不是從各個地方去挑的嗎那時候有考慮到邊線筆嗎"},{"start":345.399,"end":369.55,"text":"所以我們希望就他們在他們的規劃裡面或者他們有機會可以去調整職務或者可以升遷的就不要影響他們這樣好不好這一定的他在一切工作正常運作我們當然就要權益嘛我們強調講官兵的權益我們要注意不要去剝奪但我要跟委員多講一句我們在用這個人物放不放他"},{"start":370.41,"end":372.392,"text":"所以這個部分我相信其他在座的各位我相信他們都已經聽到了這個部分我們希望也不要再發聲好不好"},{"start":393.431,"end":396.274,"text":"今天是針對我們潛艦的部分我想請教部長因為這一次我們潛艦小組已經要解散是不是?沒有沒有嗎?沒有所以這是報紙提的?"},{"start":412.737,"end":413.377,"text":"海軍有預估出來嗎?"},{"start":413.377,"end":413.397,"text":"有嗎?"},{"start":431.896,"end":435.839,"text":"2800億是我們那裡已經出過出來的嗎?有這個數字嗎?有嗎?有沒有這樣?有這個數字嗎?所以報紙為什麼會知道?所以以後你們2800億不是你們訂的"},{"start":459.773,"end":464.194,"text":"不是嗎所以其實是有這個數字可是有人已經先給了媒體是不是你只是還沒確定嘛可是已經有這個預估的數字了我想請教一下像這樣的預估是怎麼預估的我們現在因為沒時間就這個部分我希望以後我可能私底下希望你們把這樣子相關的評估還有這樣的預算的估計"},{"start":485.58,"end":485.62,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":510.031,"end":510.071,"text":"：馬文君"},{"start":527.411,"end":534.075,"text":"這個部分我們還是希望可以去查查清楚因為原型艦如果沒有成功後續艦其實就不用談了原型艦發生了問題你都不敢去面對或不敢去解決你就不可能造出一個成功的我們後續的其他的潛艦你還要成立艦隊如果他是不能作戰的他要怎麼成立艦隊所以就這我們初步看到現在因為整個形體也出來了"},{"start":553.826,"end":559.468,"text":"我們看到我們這個整體的有三項大家可以來討論因為在海軍有相關的退員其實大家都在關注也很希望他可以成功可是他們的看法有很多人專業的看法認為我們整體後勤支援這個是沒有建立一個完整的"},{"start":577.814,"end":577.854,"text":"馬文君"},{"start":595.562,"end":617.128,"text":"顯然我們在跟美國其實有史以來關係這麼好的情況之下如果我們可以選擇軍規我們有更好的保障而且美國他可以讓我們的系統整合可以做一個有效的一個整合可能對我們還是更有保障的因為現在看起來我們這個海昆艦他包括他的設備來源他是八國聯軍他包括他的技術顧問"},{"start":624.89,"end":624.93,"text":"：馬文君"},{"start":654.81,"end":654.85,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":684.059,"end":687.743,"text":"做了很多的樣子簽了很多的文書我都覺得那個在媒體上面講的都比我們的剛剛的機密報告還要多還要深入還要廣泛所以就這個部分我們都我們很希望他是可以成功的如果可以採後面的這7艘"},{"start":705.92,"end":715.027,"text":"如果可以讓它更健全我們希望是採取這樣的模式第三個就是用人不當的問題因為像這個部分我們為什麼會覺得紛紛擾擾在這一次的潛艦國造裡面因為有人爆料如果聽過錄音檔的就不難發現光是記寫這塊大餅我稍微提示一下內容"},{"start":732.708,"end":737.343,"text":"埃地安斯聘用兩家計協公司其中GL是詐騙集團"},{"start":739.335,"end":753.084,"text":"SI是拿錢不做事都沒有盡責所以台船急著找新團隊因為原型艦的寄血預算被GL跟SI都已經用完了所以第二到第八艘的預算他還沒有確定的情況之下把目標放在海龍跟海虎艦的延售案這個都是在錄影檔裡面提到的包括我們的海龍海虎的延售案"},{"start":763.931,"end":787.392,"text":"都已經被禁語所以在延壽案的主合約商是中科院臺船是次合約商等到臺船跟中科院簽約以後就可以撥一些預算來聘請新的團隊接下來新的團隊他的合約是5年在這個寄寫開價是4億可是我們有顧問允諾他3億"},{"start":792.076,"end":794,"text":"可是在這個顧問跟廠長的對話當中又希望他可以編列4到4.5億因為他同時不算一句否則我們要吃什麼"},{"start":804.591,"end":822.496,"text":"如果一個3億可以做的案子他要編到4.5億這中間他的利潤或者他被誰拿走這個我們不應該了解嗎另外一開始這個顧問韓方的記寫他表示只負責延售案不必收拾我們原型艦的爛攤子"},{"start":827.895,"end":851.37,"text":"可是這個郭顧問表示必須先處理原型艦因為也不用擔心紀寫顧問只提供建議不會要求他們扛責任如果處理完延秀案的原型艦自然而然第二艘到第八艘就是他的紀寫新合約就有20年至少20年預算出估140億而且還可以保證這筆錢都是我們的"},{"start":857.231,"end":872.457,"text":"在這裡我們要提出來的是這中間已經有這麼多的問題這個部分其實我也提供給國防部也提供給調查局原型艦花了530億剛剛大家都說這個當然不是用儲的說一燒多少"},{"start":873.337,"end":873.497,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":889.349,"end":889.489,"text":"：馬文君"},{"start":908.038,"end":911.982,"text":"少中將邵參事也在這裡我相信你對整個潛艦的過程你也非常清楚我記得我們去台船的時候那時候我還請教因為你說我們建隆級潛艦我們延宕了三年我們的延壽案可是我們的IDS可以順利還可以甚至超前我不知道什麼原因"},{"start":932.162,"end":937.226,"text":"因為又有惡霧戰爭又有疫情可是我們居然沒有受到影響到底是什麼原因這個部分也請把提供給我們委員會好不好時間的關係就我們剛剛提出來的在你的整體後勤支援的部分在你如果可以走商售而不是用可以走軍規而不是用商售的手段因為你沒有比較便宜啊人家"},{"start":960.361,"end":983.357,"text":"張壽是可以比較便宜比較容易取得可是顯然我們好像是背道而馳另外有沒有用人不當這三個部分我們請查查清楚後續見才有可能成功我們希望他成功可是不要拿很多冠冕堂皇的理由把責任都推給別人把污水都往別人身上潑結果花了錢的人一點責任都沒有然後說辭職就辭職如果出問題怎麼辦誰負責?海船嗎?"},{"start":989.901,"end":997.106,"text":"少餐室嗎?海軍嗎?接下來要給海軍跟部長這個絕對機密的案子當時不是說部長只知道進度總統也只知道進度嗎?那你們可以掌握什麼?如果你們沒有查清楚那你們可以掌握什麼?因為我想實際上的關係就這個案子他未來還要花費非常高的預算那他前面應該要查清楚的我們還是希望國防部可以查清楚部長您是最沒有負擔的"},{"start":1018.061,"end":1043.274,"text":"今天如果對我們國家對我們的國軍對我們的國防安全還有對人民的預算是有幫助的我們也請部長可以多費心謝謝所以我執著我一定要在最後一刻能夠盡量讓海軍這些專案人員朝西方去努力我要簡單跟委員報告我已經發覺想說為什麼會讓人家產生有沒有弊端的疑惑"},{"start":1044.495,"end":1061.691,"text":"他在一個編組當中,為了一個便宜形式,人員儘量減少,只要我們幾個知道工作進度會快,但這一快,很多該要督管的單位就等於是沒有參與,一沒有參與就容易有弊端,所以我們基本上已經發覺這個問題。"},{"start":1063.132,"end":1077.919,"text":"以後要防守弊端的發生就在這個最基本的我們會朝這方努力所以剛剛委員講的啊原來有那個弊端案認為還有疑問等一下我們要查所以我們同步來進行到時候有結果的話單獨再跟委員做報告"},{"start":1078.859,"end":1093.894,"text":"謝謝部長因為他的全壽期他的預算可能會耗費高達上兆這是非常高的經費所以其實我們也承擔很大的風險我在選舉的時候也被打得非常嚴重可是只要是對的事情我們絕對應該講的應該要查清楚的這是我們的職責跟部長一樣謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151273","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151273","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627673e64ec6038f0f10915613d02a5e1dcc5dab72e655c1c94508f01eb9e990b995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"11:09:47 - 11:23:41","影片長度":"00:13:54","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（4月17日及18日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":834,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:23:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:09:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":494,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（11時9分）謝謝主席，有請教育部潘文忠部長。"],["主席：好，請潘部長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：部長好，睽違半個多月，很高興再次見到您，教育部遮蓋住了一些東西，但是我們希望可以透明，您總算從教育部走出來，那我還是要恭喜啦！也謝謝您這兩千六百多天的貢獻，算是中華民國建國以後任期最長的教育部長，兩度執掌教育部，那當然沒有意外的話，520將會有新的教育部長接任，但是這個交接期特別重要，也希望您可以在最後的這段時間因為一身輕所以能夠再留下最重要的幾件事情，讓後面的人可以做得更好。我想回顧七年多的任期，想請教一下即將卸任的您對於這段期間的政績給自己打幾分？對自己有沒有什麼最不滿意的施政項目？"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員，我自己本身就是教育人，能夠在教育部服務，其實就盡其所能，而且我覺得教育部的同仁實在是都很優秀，也很積極。"],["葛委員如鈞：當然。"],["潘部長文忠：在這些年教育的問題真的不少，我要跟委員報告，每次看到校安的問題，不管學生是因為哪種因素，其實這是讓我最難過的事，尤其像去年新北的一個校安事件讓我真的澈底地再檢視一下，不管在輔導管教注意事項或是我們今天剛剛發布的霸凌防制準則，我都很希望能夠很細節地看到真正怎麼做才會到位。"],["葛委員如鈞：太好了，感謝部長，我相信在你這7年任期當中應該有很多成效讓大家深有所感，但是也有很多我們可以做得更好的地方，剛剛您提到校安，那我相信校安裡面也有很多的安全，包含資訊的安全，也是希望讓大家安心啦！"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想對於資安防護的措施，希望您或未來貴部的官員看到我都想到資安應該可以做得更好，為什麼呢？因為從2月22號科技大樓機房發生火災、3月12號駭客入侵7所高中的校務行政系統、3月27號電子公文系統大當機、4月2號科技大樓機房跳電，平均每10天出包一次，在短短的40天以內集滿了一級、二級跟三級的資安事件，差一點就全部完全打擊了，我想從資安的角度來檢視施政，真的是有點危險，希望真的不要再發生資安事件，讓您可以順利地撐到終場哨音響起。","我想教育部的資安問題不只是讓大家覺得不安全，其實還有一些事件的發生會讓師生開始有點覺得不太安心。這兩天有一個震驚教育界的新聞，我也非常的關注，就是有一名臺科大的研究生報名參加了今年5月份在南韓舉辦的某一個生技大會的國際研討會，繳了3萬元的報名費以及住宿費以後，遲遲未收到會議通知，向飯店以及在官網上面說受邀的臺大教授求證以後，才驚覺是詐騙集團的新手法，所以趕緊報警，最後經過多次協商，好不容易討回一些錢，但是還是有損失。想請教一下部長，就在我正在質詢的當下，雖然學生已經報警，但是你瞭不瞭解這個事件？這個網站甚至到現在還存在，我現在就來操作給你看，這個網站做得也真的是算精美，這個研討會發表文章499美元，3個晚上的住宿要價450塊美元，如果學生缺乏畢業點數，老師缺乏升等的紀錄，一個星期收到email，趕快說轉投這個研討會，他告訴你說錄取了，馬上線上刷卡，一千多美金刷出去，這還不是可怕的喔！我想以前我都說要讓部長跟我呼喊口號，今天我們不喊口號，我們想要請部長閉上眼睛想像一下、同理一下，同學申請到了，然後先用自己的錢墊付了機票、住宿、刷卡，花了10個小時飛到西班牙參加這個會議，人生地不熟，搭上客運、火車，好不容易到了會場，進到飯店，結果四處張望發現，奇怪，怎麼沒有這個研討會？看到人在各種語言交換之下發現沒有這個研討會，透過網路聯絡教授，大家亂成一團，人生地不熟，一個人形單影隻地在國外，我覺得身心真的會受到打擊喔！老實說，我以前在學校任教，我真的有聽說過這樣的事情，學生回來非常難過，身心都會受到嚴重的影響，類似這樣的研討會詐騙的網站，一搜一大把。Dcard甚至有學生表示，報名的這個連結是教授轉貼過來的，都付了錢，結果發現是詐騙研討會，每天可能都有學生受騙上當，錢沒了，畢業還受到影響，壓力真的非常大，希望部長真的要能體會學生的絕望，其實有很多方法可以去求證，我想請教一下，為什麼求證研討會是不是詐騙這樣的一個責任，目前全部都落在學生的身上？這是不是可以回應一下？"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。因為委員是資訊的專家，剛才委員提醒的，有關資安這方面，教育部會持續來加強。"],["葛委員如鈞：是，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：尤其是外在環境。"],["葛委員如鈞：對。"],["潘部長文忠：剛才委員提到的這個研討會，不好意思，我剛才有請教司長，對這個個案確實沒有掌握，但是剛才委員提到一句，是教授轉給學生這個資訊……"],["葛委員如鈞：這是他們詐騙集團大量地發送email，因為我們大專院校的email全部都收得到，他就去爬蟲嘛！按一個鈕可能就寄給全臺灣的大專院校教授，教授要升等，缺點數啊！學生也要畢業啊！教授可能就一個轉貼、轉寄給學生說去投一下，這其實很容易受騙，這真的非常危險。"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["葛委員如鈞：所以我想我們來看，還不止喔！教育部真的要有作為，主管機關教育部本身有教育部詐騙防制專區，結果點進去一看，裡面在講什麼？在講打擊黃牛票、幫行政院背書，結果怎麼樣？AI的比賽，馬上、瞬間、光速記小過，學生被詐，我們不理，跟這個時代、跟這個現狀脫節，我相信也不是教育部希望的，我想透過今天的質詢，是不是我們有一些能做的？我想時間也不多，我們就直接給部長一些建設性的建議跟意見好不好？希望你們可以研議。首先，3日內可不可以立即更新學術詐騙的樣態以及研討會詐欺的樣態，把防制的方法放到網站上，供所有的師生參考？第二，教育部應該立即正式發函給學校，要求校方正視並且保護學生，尤其針對這樣的樣態，以上兩點，請問部長是不是能做到？"],["潘部長文忠：委員所提的這個建議都很必要，剛才很詳細地聽委員在提的學生去參加……"],["葛委員如鈞：這絕對不是個案、這絕對不是個案！"],["潘部長文忠：我覺得有好多的樣態，其實真的可能連老師都不見得知道。"],["葛委員如鈞：那教育部應該要知道嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：對、對、對，但是時間，可能我請同仁再斟酌。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，研議一下。"],["潘部長文忠：對，但是這兩項建議我覺得非常有必要。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們還不只，我們有中期方案的建議，希望教育部和數位部、國科會，或者教育部就把它扛下來了，是不是能在一定的時間之內，我們是認為1個月內，因為這件事情很危險，學生還不只被騙錢，他如果去那邊，護照被收走了怎麼辦？他如果被關在房間裡面怎麼辦？有人身安全的問題怎麼辦？這是非常危險的，有沒有機會有一個窗口可以先以人工的方式來協助學生或老師，可以送一個ticket，希望這個算比較能夠判斷的人可以在48小時內，也可以7天，因為有時候出國還有一點時間，得到回復來協助他們判定，否則萬一學生飛到國外指定的地點，形單影隻，沒收護照也可能發生，控制人身自由也可能發生，到時候難道連教育部都還要來援救我們的學生嗎？這個有沒有機會來評估一下？"],["潘部長文忠：委員剛才提的，不管是短期或中期的議題，我覺得都非常必要，可能需要跨部會做一些討論。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們來給您一個倚天劍、屠龍刀來保護學生，長期方案，我們認為應該要建立學術版的美玉姨、事實查核中心。我當然知道教育部的資源有限，我們是希望新的AI內閣要用技術來保護人民、保護學生、保護受教的權益，我們認為是有機會可以用科技跟AI來建立這個樣態的判定。你可以有個LINE@，你可以有一個平台協助跟第三方，甚至編列預算去幫忙或者鼓勵學校貢獻資料，擴大民間合作也可以，事實查核中心的合作、g0v的合作也可以啊！我們認為學術信心指數甚至都比這個impact factor還要重要，你還沒拿到impact factor之前可能就被騙了，這真的是非常非常危險，所以我們希望在1個月內，有沒有機會去建立學術詐騙案件的填報平台？剛剛那是短、中、長期方案，但是已經被騙的，我覺得教育部要掌握好不好？1個月內我們有沒有機會建立學術詐騙案件的填報平台？到底有多少人被騙了？有沒有人要申訴？他可不可以上傳佐證的資料？檔案大小不要太小，不要4MB都傳不上來，希望能夠針對蒐集到的這些案件可以給予協助，在3個月內提出相關的補救措施，以上意見能不能請部長帶回去研議？2週之內書面回復我們研議的情形？"],["潘部長文忠：好，委員，這個部分，我想在整個學術詐騙這方面，跟過去層出不窮的，我覺得是比較……"],["葛委員如鈞：學生是弱勢，3萬塊、5萬塊就是他所有的身家。"],["潘部長文忠：我們在2週內把剛才委員所提的，我們綜整做一個瞭解跟掌握，後面我們再分階段來做後面的實施。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，最後一點點時間，剛剛我們提到的是防範學術詐欺可以運用AI，我們認為整個教育部都要導入AI的思維，AI的人才可能會開始進入短缺。我們新政府自稱是AI內閣，但是紐約時報報導，最新的消息，AI人才最大生產國不是美國，竟然是中國大陸，占了半數以上，那我們臺灣呢？美國、日本、新加坡，全世界都在爭AI的人才，我們的人才是否足夠？我們查了一下，長庚大學有智慧運算學院，亞洲大學也有，臺師大只有研究所，臺大是只有AI中心，還是NVIDIA出錢，經濟部來協助的，教育部這邊有沒有掌握？我們112學年度大概是1,905位AI相關的學生，但是我們的人才缺口其實會越來越擴大，數位產業署也評估，我們新增人數的成長可能會遠遠趕不上需求。我們可以看到，各種大公司、國際的公司都在競爭AI人才，Microsoft的AI是用acquisition hiring 的方式，大批、大批地在搶AI的人才，特斯拉的執行長也提出超高年薪在搶AI的人才。事實上，我們看到國科會有推動很多計畫，4年來耗了4.1億，但只有97個人留下來，國發會的就業金卡，一整年只網羅到372人，但是我們卻是人才超大的輸出，幾十萬人是大學畢業的輸出到國外，更不用講未來這些AI人才。我想請教一下，我們是不是應該對我們新的內閣，是不是幫一點忙給新的AI內閣，幫他做一點準備？能不能建立跨部會的監督機制，我們跟國發會、國科會、數位部來針對AI人才的跨國流動問題，在1個月內將研議的情況以書面提供給本席的辦公室，有沒有機會？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，現在行政院有幾個跨部會是長期比較針對各類產業所需要人才，在做整個跨部會之間的協調，我想在新的內閣組成後，這個一定會延續。"],["葛委員如鈞：評估一下。不好意思，主席，再給我10秒鐘。我們青少年高失業率11%是一般人的3倍，但是高達73%的雇主表示找不到適合的人才，學用落差的問題我相信其實是一個非常大的挑戰，希望可以有相關研議的結果，包含今天所有的議題，交給新任的部長，一同為教育的百年大計一起努力，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：我們會把今天委員所提的整理一下，謝謝。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝主席、謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請林宜瑾委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-8","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","吳春城","范雲","張嘉郡","羅智強","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","廖偉翔","莊瑞雄","劉建國","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":0.35159375000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.219093750000003,"end":14.340968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.459093750000001,"end":16.028468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.15034375,"end":69.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.180968750000005,"end":40.041593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.36596875000001,"end":76.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.50846875,"end":88.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.38409375,"end":106.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.99471875,"end":98.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.88346875,"end":108.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.23346875,"end":117.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.39284375000001,"end":114.64596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.86534375000001,"end":114.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.90284375,"end":300.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.46596875,"end":132.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.31721875,"end":350.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.89596875,"end":375.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.35034375000004,"end":360.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.74034375,"end":459.16596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.35534375000003,"end":381.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.16596875000005,"end":472.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.78096875000006,"end":467.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.22721875,"end":474.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.13846875,"end":481.42409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.28971875,"end":479.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.90096875,"end":538.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.73159375,"end":546.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.57846875,"end":637.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.7709687500001,"end":646.7990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.0947187500001,"end":649.1615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.4697187500001,"end":658.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.3803437500001,"end":653.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.99971875,"end":785.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":785.96721875,"end":799.1297187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":797.74596875,"end":797.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":799.1297187500002,"end":824.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":799.16346875,"end":800.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":824.17221875,"end":828.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":827.6147187500001,"end":829.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":829.96034375,"end":830.0615937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":830.0615937500002,"end":830.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":830.50034375,"end":833.0147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":834.1115937500001,"end":834.2297187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.543,"end":15.965,"text":"謝謝主席 有請教育部潘文忠部長好 潘部長 謝謝委員好部長好 可謂半個多月很高興再次見到您總算從教育部遮蓋住了一些東西但我們希望可以透明的教育部走出來那我還是要恭喜 這個也謝謝您的貢獻在2600多天"},{"start":39.816,"end":59.698,"text":"這個算是中華民國建國以後任期最長的教育部長兩度執掌教育部當然沒有意外的話520將會有新的教育部長接任但是這個交接期特別重要也希望您可以在最後的這段時間因為一聲輕我們是不是能夠再留下最重要的一些幾件事情讓後面的人可以做得更好"},{"start":60.439,"end":85.245,"text":"我想回顧7年多的任期想請教一下即將卸任的您對於這段期間的政績給自己打幾分對自己最不滿意的施政項目有沒有什麼?謝謝委員我想自己本身就是教育人這個能夠在教育部服務其實就盡其所能而且我覺得實在是教育部的同仁都很優秀也很積極所以在這些年真的教育的問題不少"},{"start":86.305,"end":114.278,"text":"我要跟委員報告其實每次看到校安的問題不管學生是因為哪種因素其實這是讓我最難過的事有時候會尤其像去年我們新北的一個校園校安事件讓我真的徹底的去再檢視一下不管在輔導管教諸位事項或是我們今天剛剛發布的霸凌防制準則我都很希望能夠"},{"start":118.423,"end":131.64,"text":"感謝部長,我相信這個新年任期當中應該有很多成效深有所感但是也有很多我們可以做得更好的地方那剛剛您提到這個校安那我相信這個校安裡面也有很多的安全包含資訊的安全"},{"start":131.92,"end":132.28,"text":"從2月22日科技大樓機房發生火災"},{"start":148.597,"end":173.573,"text":"3月12日亥克入軍七所大學．七所高中的校務行政系統3月17日電子公文系統大當機10月2日科技大樓機房跳電平均每10天出報一次短短的40天以內擠滿了一級二級跟三級的資安事件差一點就全部完全打擊了我想從資安的角度來檢視施政真的是有點危險"},{"start":174.954,"end":198.181,"text":"希望真的是不要再發生資安事件讓您可以順利的撐到中場效應響起那我想教育部的資安問題不只是讓大家覺得不安全其實還有一些事件的發生會讓師生開始有點覺得不太安心這兩天有一個震驚教育界的新聞我也非常關注一名台科大的研究生報名參加了今年5月份在南韓舉辦的某一個生技大會的國際研討會"},{"start":200.241,"end":219.341,"text":"繳了3萬元的報名費及住宿費以後此時未收到會議通知向飯店及受邀的官網上說受邀的臺大教授求證以後才驚覺是詐騙集團的新手法趕緊報警最後經過多次協商好不容易討回一些錢但是還是有損失想請教一下部長"},{"start":221.143,"end":234.374,"text":"這個就現在正在質詢的當下雖然學生已經報警但了不了解這個事件這個網站甚至現在還存在我們現在來操作給你看這個網站做的也真的是算精美這個研討會發表文章499美元"},{"start":238.217,"end":256.945,"text":"三個晚上的住宿要價450塊美元現在如果學生缺乏這個什麼畢業點數老師缺乏升等的紀錄一個星期收到email趕快說轉投轉投這個研討會他告訴你說入局了馬上線上刷卡一千多美金刷出去"},{"start":258.185,"end":283.22,"text":"這還不是可怕的我想這個以前我都說要讓部長跟我呼喊口號今天我們不喊口號我們想要請部長閉上眼睛想像一下同理一下同學申請到了然後呢先用自己的錢電付了機票住宿刷卡飛了10個小時飛到西班牙剩下這個會議人生地不熟搭上客運火車好不容易到會場進到飯店結果呢"},{"start":285.882,"end":300.374,"text":"四處張望發現奇怪怎麼沒有這個研討會看到人各種語言交換之下發現沒有這個研討會透過網路連聯絡教授大家亂成一團人生地不熟一個人形單影資的在國外"},{"start":301.457,"end":324.149,"text":"是不是真的我覺得身心真的會受到打擊老實說我以前任教在學校我真的有聽說過這樣的事情學生回來非常難過身心都會受到嚴重的影響像類似這樣的研討會詐騙的網站一收一大把Dcard甚至有學生表示報名的這個連結是教授轉貼過來的"},{"start":325.41,"end":350.098,"text":"都付了錢發現是詐騙研討會每天可能都有學生受騙上當錢沒了畢業還受到影響壓力真的非常的大希望部長真的要能體會學生的絕望那其實有很多的方法可以去求證那我想請教一下就是說為什麼求證研討會是不是詐騙這樣的一個責任目前全部都落在學生的身上這是不是可以回應一下"},{"start":351.677,"end":361.563,"text":"謝謝委員因為委員是資訊的專家剛才委員提醒的有關資安的這方面教育部會持續的來加強尤其是外在環境委員知道這個問題那剛才委員提到的這個研討委員不好意思我剛才在請教師長"},{"start":367.627,"end":391.762,"text":"對這個案其實沒有掌握但是剛才委員提到一句我就覺得他是教授來轉給學生這個資訊這是他們詐騙集團大量的發送E-mail因為我們大專院校的E-mail全部都收得到嘛他就去爬蟲嘛按一個鈕可能就寄給全台灣的大專院校的教授啊那教授要升等啊缺點數啊學生也要畢業啊那教授可能就一個轉貼轉寄給學生的時候你去投一下"},{"start":394.784,"end":397.046,"text":"教育部主管機關本身有教育部詐騙防治專區就點進去一看裡面在講什麼打擊黃牛票啦什麼幫行政院背書啦"},{"start":414.665,"end":437.826,"text":"結果怎麼樣AI的這個比賽馬上瞬間光速記小過那學生被炸我們不理跟這個時代跟這個現狀脫節我相信也不是教育部希望那我想透過今天的質詢是不是我們有一些能做的那我想這個時間也不多啦我們就直接建設性的給部長一些建議跟意見好不好那希望你們可以研議首先"},{"start":438.687,"end":464.234,"text":"三日內可不可以立即的更新學術詐騙的樣態以及研討會詐欺的樣態把防制的方法放到網站上供所有的師生參考第二教育部應該立即正式的發案給學校要求校方正式並且保護學生尤其針對這樣的樣態以上兩點請問部長是不是能做到委員我想委員所提的這個建議都很必要因為剛才很詳細的聽委員在提那個"},{"start":465.254,"end":473.899,"text":"這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案這絕對不是個案"},{"start":494.449,"end":514.608,"text":"學生還不只被騙錢,他如果去那邊如果護照被收走了怎麼辦?他如果被關在房間裡面怎麼辦?人生有安全了怎麼辦?這個是非常危險的有沒有機會有一個窗口可以先以人工的方式來協助學生或老師可以送一個Ticket去希望這個比較能夠判斷的人"},{"start":516.59,"end":536.843,"text":"可以在48小時內或我們也可以7天啦因為這個有時候出國還有一點時間嘛得到回覆來協助他們判定否則萬一學生非要國外指定的地點行單引資、沒收護照也可能發生控制人身自由也可能發生到時候我們難道連教育部都還要來援救我們的學生嗎這個有沒有機會來評估一下"},{"start":539.25,"end":539.45,"text":"長期方案"},{"start":553.749,"end":583.019,"text":"我們認為應該要建立學術版的美育儀事實查核中心我當然知道教育部資源有限我們是希望新的AI內閣要用技術來保護人民保護學生保護受教的權益我們認為是有機會可以用科技跟AI來建立這個樣態的判定你有個Line Ad你有個平台協助跟第三方甚至編列預算去幫忙或者鼓勵學校貢獻資料擴大民間合作也可以"},{"start":583.559,"end":584.04,"text":"4月17日及18日二天一次會．葛如鈞"},{"start":606.883,"end":624.391,"text":"但是已經被騙了我覺得教育部要掌握好不好一個月內我們有沒有機會建立詐騙案件就是學術詐騙的填報平台到底有多少人被騙了有沒有人要申訴他可不可以上傳佐證的資料檔案大小不要太小不要那四妹都傳不上來"},{"start":625.592,"end":637.037,"text":"希望能夠收集到的這些案件可以給予協助去在3個月內提出相關的補救措施以上意見能不能請部長待會去研議兩週之內書面回覆我們研議的情形"},{"start":637.813,"end":658.642,"text":"好 委員這個部分我想在整個學術詐騙的這方面跟過去那個層出不窮的學生是弱勢3萬塊5萬塊就是他所有的身家了我想委員我們在兩週把目前剛才委員所提的我們重整做一個瞭解跟掌握那後面我們想在再分階段來做後面的實施好不好"},{"start":659.042,"end":683.325,"text":"好 我想最後一點點時間剛剛我們提到的是這個防範學術詐欺可以運用AI那我們認為整個教育部都要導入AI的思維AI的人才可能會開始進入短缺我們新政府說是AI內閣但是紐約時報有說最新的消息AI人才最大生產國不是美國竟然是中國大陸佔了半數以上那我們台灣勒"},{"start":684.806,"end":702.556,"text":"美國 日本 新加坡 全世界都在爭AI的人才我們的人才是否足夠我們查了一下長庚大學有智慧運算學院亞洲大學也有臺師大只有研究所臺大是只有AI中心還是NVIDIA出錢經濟部來協助的教育部這邊"},{"start":705.017,"end":711.06,"text":"有沒有掌握我們112學年度大概是1905位的AI相關的學生但是我們的人才缺口其實會越來越擴大數位產業署也評估了其實我們新增的人數的成長可能會遠遠趕不上需求我們可以看到各種大公司國際的公司都在競爭AI人才"},{"start":731.929,"end":746.476,"text":"Microsoft AI是用人才acquisition hiring的方式大批大批的在搶AI的人才特斯拉執行長也提出超高年薪在搶AI的人才事實上我們看到國科會有推動很多的計劃"},{"start":747.456,"end":754.879,"text":"4年來耗了4.1億但只有97個人留下來國發會的這個就業金卡一整年只網路到372人但是我們卻是人才超大的輸出幾十萬人是大學畢業的輸出到國外更不用講未來這些AI人才我想請教一下我們是不是應該我們新的內閣我們是不是幫一點忙給新的AI內閣做一點準備能不能建立跨部會的監督機制跟國發會、國科會"},{"start":777.029,"end":789.156,"text":"數位部我們來針對AI人才的跨國流動問題在一個月內將演繹的情況以書面提供給本席的辦公室有沒有機會我請要跟委員報告現在即使行政院我們有幾個跨部會是長期就是比較用各類產業所需要的人才在做跨部會之間的協調我想這個在新的內閣組成這一定會提供一下不好意思主席再給我10秒鐘20秒"},{"start":804.064,"end":827.811,"text":"10秒好我們這個青少年高失業率11%是一般人的3倍但是高達73%的雇主表示找不到適合的人才學用落差的問題我相信其實是一個非常大的挑戰希望可以有相關研議的結果包含今天所有議題交給行政部長一同為教育的百年大計一起努力好不好我們會把今天委員所提的一些我們整理一下好謝謝謝謝主席謝謝部長好謝謝接下來我們請林怡錦委員"},{"start":834.087,"end":834.497,"text":"謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151272","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151272","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627c4fc5336ed44c942b57f63d1b53b7532c5dab72e655c1c9428a6dcfce92d83dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:15:48 - 11:21:40","影片長度":"00:05:52","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-12"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":352,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:21:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:15:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":813,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時15分）主席、各位委員。有請部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["薛部長富盛：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長好。環境部很重要的就是環境影響評估，那環境影響評估有關蘇花安這個公路，我現在的圖是之前的蘇花改，蘇花安的環評是誰主持？"],["薛部長富盛：我們分初審，環評大會的話，部長會親自主持，那假如初審的話，我們次長跟環保司的司長也都會在場。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個要特別請我們環境部的所有官員來去協助。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們看這個，我們回顧蘇花改，蘇花改這些路段當時都是先選擇最困難的、最不安全的、對人民的傷害最大的、常常會落石的，這些不安全的先做，也就是說它是比較困難的，當時的選擇是這樣，蘇花改的好幾個路段。按照97年11月10號行政院同意蘇花改的可行性研究，然後兩年多就開工了，也就是說它在環境影響評估這個部分是很順利的。","我們反觀這個，這個是整個蘇花安跟蘇花改的路段，這個蠻複雜的，不太容易看。我們看現在的蘇花安，我剛剛講了，蘇花改已經通車了，然後現在的名稱叫蘇花安，還有幾個路段要繼續做，108年12月20號行政院核定蘇花安的可行性研究，108年喔！現在已經是113年了，這些路段都是比較好做的，而且從過去來看，像蘇花改是比較不安全的，這次應該是比較安全的，但是我們這次0403的地震，蘇花改的路段都沒有怎麼樣，現在發生的都在蘇花安的路段，所以這個部分就必須要去加速，因為現在的科技跟環保可以兼顧並行，反而有時候我常常跟環評的團體講，兼顧的話對環境保護更好，絕對是這樣。","從108年12月20號蘇花安的可行性研究到現在，比之前的蘇花改還來得久，到現在環評都還沒有完成，連初審都沒有通過，所以這個部分要特別請部長，雖然你要離開了……"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：更要請我們環境部的同仁……"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：怎麼樣去說明、怎麼樣去說服這些環評的委員，可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：跟鄭委員報告，就我所知交通部好像這個月底前會送進環境部，環境部已經規劃在5月初還是5月什麼時候就馬上會召開。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，儘快。"],["薛部長富盛：我們會來全力協助。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我也會請交通部能夠趕快……"],["薛部長富盛：我們會全力來協助。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：趕快送去。"],["薛部長富盛：OK。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以要加速完成蘇花安的環評。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們回顧北迴鐵路那個年代，1980的年代花6年就完工了，北迴鐵路是整個路段喔！蘇花安、蘇花改的路段喔！你看北迴鐵路這次0403發生大地震，4月4號的凌晨就通車了，都沒有怎麼樣，只是在這段時間它去檢查、去檢查，再檢查，都沒有問題。所以在這邊特別要請環境部的同仁，在環評的時候要詳為說明，讓環評的這些委員能夠支持，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝鄭委員。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。","接下來我們請洪孟楷、洪孟楷，洪孟楷委員不在。","我們請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","陳瑩","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃秀芳","張雅琳","洪申翰","蔡易餘","劉建國","陳冠廷","楊曜","蘇清泉"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事\n業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.94909375,"end":12.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.484718750000003,"end":13.497218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.172218750000003,"end":14.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.47971875,"end":18.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.37409375,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.765968750000003,"end":23.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.723468750000002,"end":36.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.666593750000004,"end":40.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.85221875,"end":36.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.69534375,"end":46.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.774718750000005,"end":48.580343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.96034375,"end":47.078468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.93471875,"end":49.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.96409375,"end":52.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.63034375,"end":55.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.48221875,"end":57.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.625343750000006,"end":64.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.88221875000001,"end":61.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.27409375,"end":65.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.50596875000001,"end":68.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.49284375,"end":69.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.21409375,"end":70.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.63159375000001,"end":72.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.75784375,"end":74.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.90534375,"end":77.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.79096875,"end":78.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.39409375000001,"end":83.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.16159375000001,"end":82.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.43159375,"end":82.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.96721875,"end":84.69284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.26659375,"end":86.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.05534375,"end":89.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.43471875,"end":90.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.68346875,"end":92.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.36659375,"end":95.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.66159375000001,"end":98.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.72471875000001,"end":96.91034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.34034375,"end":100.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.97284375000001,"end":102.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.93034375,"end":105.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.17471875000001,"end":107.01846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.30534375,"end":108.46971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.89159375000001,"end":109.80284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.91659375,"end":114.61221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.16909375,"end":116.35034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.12659375000001,"end":117.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.51034375,"end":119.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.79284375,"end":124.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.55159375000001,"end":126.61034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.86784375,"end":126.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.35284375,"end":130.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.39034375,"end":136.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.78159375,"end":139.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.23284375,"end":141.54471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.03409375,"end":143.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.36721875,"end":145.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.47221875,"end":148.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.40846875,"end":150.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.12971875000002,"end":152.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.42471875,"end":154.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.11221875,"end":157.87971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.09471875,"end":160.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.22096875,"end":164.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.57034375,"end":169.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.59096875,"end":170.09721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.83971875,"end":171.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.61159375,"end":173.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.75909375,"end":181.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.52159375000002,"end":184.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.24659375000002,"end":187.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.05221875,"end":190.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.98409375,"end":195.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.08034375000003,"end":200.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.94471875000002,"end":202.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.66159375,"end":204.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.18034375000002,"end":206.37846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.68221875,"end":207.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.69034375,"end":212.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.65596875,"end":213.93846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.97596875000002,"end":220.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.78534375,"end":222.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.35471875000002,"end":229.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.30721875,"end":230.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.07909375000003,"end":233.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.90159375000002,"end":235.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.06159375000001,"end":238.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.52096875,"end":241.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.68096875,"end":244.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.54534375000003,"end":249.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.32096875000002,"end":250.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.63721875000002,"end":254.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.90284375000002,"end":253.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.88971875000001,"end":257.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.54346875,"end":257.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.96534375,"end":260.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.64846875,"end":261.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.23909375,"end":264.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.39471875000004,"end":277.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.49159375,"end":266.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.11034375,"end":278.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.45159375000003,"end":286.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.51034375,"end":281.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.06284375,"end":282.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.67846875000004,"end":284.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.17596875000004,"end":287.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.74971875,"end":288.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.63971875000004,"end":290.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.93909375000004,"end":291.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.52534375,"end":293.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.37721875,"end":297.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.25846875,"end":301.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.72221875,"end":302.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.39284375,"end":304.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.23221875,"end":307.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.32034375,"end":309.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.22721875,"end":311.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.16784375000003,"end":313.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.07471875000005,"end":315.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.21784375000004,"end":317.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.15409375,"end":319.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.49971875,"end":323.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.94659375000003,"end":324.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.68909375000004,"end":325.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.00096875,"end":331.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.81034375,"end":333.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.57784375,"end":341.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.91846875000005,"end":341.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.96909375,"end":346.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.39034375,"end":348.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.65596875,"end":348.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.27159375,"end":352.24596875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.17,"end":40.095,"text":"主席各位有請部長好請部長好政委好部長好是這個環境部很重要的就是環境影響評估是那環境影響評估有關這個蘇花安這個公務我現在的圖是蘇花改了是之前的蘇花安這個環評是誰主持"},{"start":42.615,"end":61.706,"text":"我們分出省,環民大會的話會部長親自主持那假如出省的話我們次長跟我們那個環保師的師長也都會在場好,這個就要特別請這個我們環境部的所有的官員來去協助我們看這個,我們回顧抒發改"},{"start":70.47,"end":93.82,"text":"蘇花改這些路段當時都是先選擇最困難的最不安全的對人民的傷害最大的常常會落實的這些不安全的先做也就是說它是比較困難的當時的選擇是這樣這個蘇花改這個好幾個路段"},{"start":99.4,"end":119.045,"text":"那蘇阿改的這個你看看我們按照這個97年蘇阿改11月10號行政院同意他的可行性研究一直到開工兩年多就開工了"},{"start":119.847,"end":147.76,"text":"也就是說他在環境影響評估這個部分是很順利的很順利好我們反觀這個這個是整個蘇花安跟蘇花改這個路段這個蠻複雜的這樣看就不太容易看我們看現在的蘇花安我剛剛講了蘇花改已經通車了然後現在還名稱叫蘇花安還有幾個路段要繼續做"},{"start":150.372,"end":171.733,"text":"108年12月20日行政院合併蘇花安的可行性研究108年現在已經是113年了這些路段都是比較好做的而且從過去來看"},{"start":172.679,"end":195.385,"text":"也都是跟舒華安舒華改是比較不安全的這個這一次是應該比較安全的但是現在我們這一次0403的地震舒華改都沒有怎麼樣舒華改的路段都沒有怎麼樣舒華安現在發生的都在舒華安的路段"},{"start":197.133,"end":211.407,"text":"所以這個部分這個就是必須要去加速因為現在的科技跟環保可以兼顧並行反而有時候是我常常跟這個環評的這個團體講兼顧的話對環境保護更好"},{"start":221.664,"end":224.445,"text":"所以這個部分要特別請部長雖然這個要離開了更要請我們的"},{"start":251.921,"end":259.531,"text":"環境部的同仁是怎麼樣去說明怎麼樣去說服這些環評的委員"},{"start":260.703,"end":277.536,"text":"可以嗎?給鄭委員報告我所知道交通部好像這個月底前會送進環境部那環境部已經規劃在五月初還是五月什麼時候就馬上會召開我會請這個交通部趕快送去所以要加速完成這個塑化案的環評我們回顧"},{"start":289.707,"end":317.134,"text":"北回鐵路那個年代你看看1980的年代這麼花6年就完工了北回鐵路它是整個路段喔蘇花安、蘇花改的路段喔北回鐵路當時你看北回鐵路這一次啊04、03發生大地震"},{"start":319.392,"end":321.874,"text":"好,謝謝鄭委員。好,謝謝"},{"start":350.319,"end":350.761,"text":"好 謝謝鄭天財委員"}]}},{"id":"151271","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151271","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016274dfa784c0e1c58cdb57f63d1b53b7532c5dab72e655c1c941052946088e6d4215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:09:32 - 11:15:39","影片長度":"00:06:07","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-12"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":367,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:15:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:09:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":765,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時9分）謝謝主席。薛部長，有請。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["薛部長富盛：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長早安。"],["薛部長富盛：早！"],["牛委員煦庭：今天討論家戶廢棄物的減量，因為時間有限，我們就沒辦法每個題目都討論。看到這份報告裡面針對專用垃圾袋僅以一句話帶過去，本席跟涂權吉委員一樣，也對此非常有意見。現在只有臺北市和新北市採用專用垃圾袋的方式來處理家戶廢棄物，請問有沒有成效？"],["薛部長富盛：成效很好啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：成效很好對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是、是、是。"],["牛委員煦庭：那部長知道為什麼其他地方的縣市政府試行推動的時候，大部分的基層民眾都聞袋色變，不是因為垃圾很臭，而是聽到專用垃圾袋的政策就非常緊張，好像政府來搶錢一樣。這是老問題了，對不對？部長知道這個事嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：是啊！就是大家認為垃圾袋以前不是都免費的嗎？現在還要付費！"],["牛委員煦庭：應該說是自行購買，因為統一規格之後就由政府來定價嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：對啊！所以這是觀念改變啦！就如同我們現在收碳費也是一樣，以前排放碳是很正常的啊，但是會造成氣候暖化。同樣的，現在塑膠微粒的問題也很嚴重啊！"],["牛委員煦庭：對！所以這個政策要推，對不對？部裡面的意見是這樣，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是，牛委員應該要支持啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：請問現在垃圾費隨袋徵收是中央政策還是地方政策？"],["薛部長富盛：是中央訂的政策，我們希望地方能夠來配合推動，但是不強制，因為要因地制宜嘛！有時候您也瞭解其實不管桃園或其他縣市……"],["牛委員煦庭：我今天花時間討論就是這個原因，因為你講是中央政策，但是讓地方因地制宜的時候，其實就會發生現在這樣的狀況。我們談專用垃圾袋政策已經談了十幾年，但實際上真的有做的也就只有雙北能夠有一點點成果，推動的時候有很多窒礙難行的地方，所以本席的意見是這樣，既然你講這是中央的政策，那就要給地方政府強而有力的支持嘛！不管是預算也好，政策宣導也好，技術支援也好，甚至部分的強制力也好，其實這都是地方政府在執行中央訂定的遊戲規則時需要的武器嘛！但是目前為止，中央給了地方哪些東西？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上我們有補助喔！假如它願意去推動，像桃園已經有8個里在推動，我們就會給他們一些補助當成誘因，當然，這些誘因我們是希望越大越好，可是環境部本身的資源有限。"],["牛委員煦庭：其實桃園最近試辦裡面有幾個里就在本席的選區……"],["薛部長富盛：是、是、是。"],["牛委員煦庭：其實是有成效的，但是……"],["薛部長富盛：OK，非常好！"],["牛委員煦庭：但是因為要再擴大實施的時候，相對來講就會進入政策的深水區，就是要溝通、協調等等，我覺得你要把部分地區的試辦擴大到全市通用的時候，其實地方政府一定壓力很大，壓力很大的時候，面對民眾的質疑，本身溝通就很困難，如果我們沒有從中央得到強而有力的支持，比方說大量的預算，甚至譬如有階段性的費用減免或怎麼樣來做調整的話，其實地方的武器就很有限。所以中央除了現階段的試辦補貼計畫之外，現在是否有在研擬別的方法？有沒有更多的資源和更多的政策可以支持地方？"],["薛部長富盛：牛委員對中央當然期許很大，但是我必須很坦白地告訴牛委員，事實上環境部的預算也不是很多，所以以一個環境部的預算要來照顧到全臺灣各個鄉鎮、縣市是有它一定的挑戰，環境部事實上也給地方滿多的支援，譬如空污裡面的費用……"],["牛委員煦庭：空污是空污，我們……"],["薛部長富盛：還有資源循環的部分……"],["牛委員煦庭：我們今天討論的是廢棄物減量的策進作為，我想我們的共識是，專用垃圾袋的政策是有助於廢棄物減量的，既然是這樣，它其實就是相對減碳的東西，本來就值得環境部投入資源，所以我希望環境部去做個研擬，就是除了現行機制之外，怎麼樣來優化，讓地方政府更加願意來做這樣政策的說明？這是第一個。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝牛委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個是去化的部分，因為桃園正在進行焚化爐歲修，又進入垃圾危機的時代，我相信很多縣市或早或晚也都會面對一樣的困境，環境部從統合全部廢棄物減量政策的中央主管機關的角度，你覺得怎麼因應個別縣市遇到的去化問題？"],["薛部長富盛：跟委員報告，桃園的我們已經協助跟雲林和臺北市來討論了，本來臺北市有幫雲林，所以我們就希望雲林是不是有一部分先讓給桃園？因為桃園離臺北更進，將來運送的費用更便宜，等桃園整修完了之後，將來協助雲林來處理，這樣……"],["牛委員煦庭：這就是本席要講的第二個概念，就是垃圾去化的區域聯防，互相之間彼此跑位……"],["薛部長富盛：認同，很好！"],["牛委員煦庭：桃園可以處理比較多難處理的，其實我們的技術比較進步……"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝牛委員支持……"],["牛委員煦庭：因為我們是產業重鎮，相對來講，民生垃圾方面我們的量能就相對不足……"],["薛部長富盛：對、對、對。"],["牛委員煦庭：這當然是歷史共業，但我們希望區域聯防機制在建立的時候，不是只是說大家拜託，中央才協調，你應該也有主動積極的角色。也就是說，就像我們推動專用垃圾袋政策一樣，提供一部分的政策誘因、預算補貼，去鼓勵各個縣市政府去做區域聯防，這樣你環境部也不用說遇到事情再來一件一件喬嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：認同。"],["牛委員煦庭：你平常就有機制鼓勵他們自主地去做溝通的時候，也許會比較有幫助。那你剛剛講臺北跟雲林，因為桃園現在跟基隆、新北的運作有一點成果，剩下的部分希望環境部協助桃園市政府，來跟其他的縣市做一下合作……"],["薛部長富盛：我們持續來做。"],["牛委員煦庭：用交換的方式，來降低焚化爐歲修時的垃圾堆積對於桃園的衝擊，可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：好，可以。"],["牛委員煦庭：相關的資料，會後請環境部再來跟本席做報告，好嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝部長，辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢。等一下林淑芬委員發言結束，處理臨時提案。","我們現在請鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","陳瑩","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃秀芳","張雅琳","洪申翰","蔡易餘","劉建國","陳冠廷","楊曜","蘇清泉"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事\n業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.287218750000001,"end":7.945343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.164718750000002,"end":9.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.797218750000003,"end":11.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.239718750000002,"end":15.336593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.775343750000001,"end":17.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.47971875,"end":17.496593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.496593750000002,"end":17.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.51346875,"end":17.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.54721875,"end":17.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.85096875,"end":38.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.68159375,"end":21.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.27409375,"end":37.510343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.58596875,"end":41.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.37909375,"end":60.797843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.74721875,"end":66.11346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.80971875,"end":68.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.15971875000001,"end":68.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.72909375,"end":76.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.01596875,"end":70.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.21721875,"end":80.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.52471875,"end":80.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.54159375,"end":90.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.57534375,"end":80.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.57909375,"end":85.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.66221875000001,"end":92.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.71284375,"end":99.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.66096875000001,"end":102.81659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.39034375,"end":105.80346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.75284375000001,"end":141.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.91096875000001,"end":120.06284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.52846875,"end":138.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.74284375000002,"end":154.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.21346875,"end":158.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.13284375,"end":164.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.16596875000002,"end":162.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.25846875000002,"end":165.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.23721875,"end":191.59596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.86096875,"end":170.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.59596875000003,"end":192.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.78159375,"end":199.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.78034375000001,"end":205.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.85534375,"end":207.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.93096875,"end":209.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.53409375,"end":214.36034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.76534375,"end":218.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.76471875000001,"end":220.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.99221875,"end":229.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.69159375,"end":232.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.40409375000002,"end":233.74971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.82159375,"end":276.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.58471875,"end":236.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.70284375000003,"end":236.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.80346875,"end":240.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.59034375000002,"end":255.70409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.77971875000003,"end":257.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.20096875,"end":262.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.94284375,"end":267.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.10596875000005,"end":279.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.64971875000003,"end":286.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.70346875,"end":302.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.28471875,"end":293.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.19471875,"end":357.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.76784375,"end":307.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.47659375,"end":308.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.75471875,"end":311.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.62784375,"end":313.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.24784375,"end":314.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.74534375,"end":316.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.58784375000005,"end":325.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.61034375,"end":342.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.77471875000003,"end":344.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.47409375,"end":351.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.17346875000004,"end":358.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.62909375000004,"end":361.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.93659375000004,"end":363.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.94909375000003,"end":362.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.15971875,"end":367.02846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.562,"end":11.189,"text":"謝謝主席 這個薛部長有請好請部長"},{"start":15.805,"end":38.32,"text":"部長早安今天討論家戶廢棄物的減量因為時間有限我們就沒辦法每一個題目都討論但本期看到報告裡面針對專用垃圾袋用一句話帶過去這跟圖全集委員一樣本期也對此非常有意見這個過去雖然現在只有臺北市跟新北市採用專用垃圾袋的方式來處理請問有沒有成效?"},{"start":39.656,"end":56.97,"text":"成效很好啊 成效很好對不對 是是是那為什麼部長知不知道為什麼地方我們現在其他地方縣市政府要去試行推動的時候大部分的這個基層民眾聞帶色變不是因為這個垃圾很臭啊是聽到專用垃圾袋的政策啊就非常的緊張好像政府來搶錢一樣這個是老問題啦"},{"start":59.272,"end":80.332,"text":"對不對?部長知道這個事嗎?是啊,就是大家認為說欸垃圾在以前不是都免費的嗎?現在還要復原。因為他說是自行購買,但是統一規格之後就由政府來定價嘛。就如同我們現在收碳會也是一樣,以前說排放碳很正常的啊,但是造成氣候軟化,同樣現在塑膠危力很嚴重啦。"},{"start":80.632,"end":90.108,"text":"對所以政策這個政策要推對不對是所以裡面的意見是這樣對不對那這個現在啦垃圾水袋徵收的這樣一個政策是中央政策還是地方政策"},{"start":91.738,"end":112.67,"text":"中央定的政策那我們希望地方能夠來配合推動但是不強制因為要因地制宜嘛因為有時候你也瞭解即使是在不管桃園或其他縣市我覺得今天要花時間討論就是這個原因嘛因為你講是中央政策但是又給它地方因地制宜的時候其實你就會發生現在這樣的狀況"},{"start":114.031,"end":141.617,"text":"我們去談專用熱帶政策其實已經十幾年了對不對但實際上真的有做當然也就只有雙北能夠有一點點成果那推動的時候有很多自然難行的地方所以本席這邊的意見是這樣子喔如果你講這是一個中央的政策那你應該要給地方政府強而有力的支持嘛不管是預算也好、政策宣導也好、技術資源也好甚至部分的強制力也好其實這都是地方政府在執行你中央定地的遊戲規則的時候它需要的武器嘛但目前為止中央給了地方哪些東西"},{"start":142.793,"end":165.042,"text":"喔事實上我們有補助喔假如他願意去推動所以像桃園喔已經有8個里他們來推動那我們就給他們一些補助啊就當然誘因啦當然就誘因這個我們是希望越大越好可是環境部本身的支援其實以桃園最近事辦那你又有幾個里就在我本席的選區喔是是是其實是有成效的OK非常好"},{"start":165.322,"end":191.404,"text":"但因為你要在擴大實施的時候相對來講就進入政策的深水區嘛你就要進入溝通協調以及等等相關的我覺得你要把部分地區的事辦擴大到全市通用的時候其實地方政府第一壓力很大壓力很大的時候面對民眾的質疑本身溝通就很困難如果我們沒有從中央得到強而有力的支持比如說大量預算去那個然後甚至讓比如說有階段性的有費用的減免或怎麼樣來做調整的時候其實地方的武器就很有限嘛"},{"start":191.864,"end":220.003,"text":"所以說中央現在是否有在研擬除了現在的事辦補貼計畫之外有沒有別的方法有沒有更多的資源跟更多的政策可以支持的地方牛委員對中央當然趨勢很大但是我必須很坦白的告訴牛委員事實上環境部的預算也不是很多所以以一個環境部的預算要來能夠照顧到全台灣的這個各個鄉鎮這個縣市是有它的一定挑戰"},{"start":221.204,"end":231.029,"text":"環境部事實上也跟地方蠻多的資源有些事實上譬如說空屋裡面的費用有些是消耗的還有資源循環的部分如果我們今天的主題是說廢棄物減量的策進作為那我想我們的共識是"},{"start":238.932,"end":239.312,"text":"因為桃園現在進行焚化爐的稅修"},{"start":260.309,"end":275.7,"text":"主要又進入了垃圾危機的一個時代那我相信這樣的東西其實很多縣市或早或晚也都會面對一樣的困境中央從這個統合全部的這個廢棄物減量政策的主管機關的角度你覺得怎麼因應這個個別縣市遇到這種"},{"start":276.34,"end":301.2,"text":"我跟牛煦報告桃園的我們已經協助跟迎林跟台北市來討論了本來台北市有幫迎林那我們就希望說迎林是不是有一部分就先讓給桃園因為桃園離台北更近將來這個運送的費用更便宜那等桃園這個整修完了之後將來協助迎林來處理"},{"start":302.341,"end":332.061,"text":"這就是本期要講的第二概念就是垃圾區化的區域聯防啦互相之間彼此跑位啦桃園其實處理很多比較難處理的其實我們的技術是比較進步因為我們是產業重鎮嘛那相對兩名聲垃圾相對我們量能就相對不足那當然是歷史共業但我們希望區域聯防機制在建立的時候不是只是說中央是大家拜託然後才協調你應該也有主動積極的角色也就是說就像我們推動中央垃圾政策一樣提供一部分的政策誘因預算補貼去鼓勵各個縣政府去做區域聯防"},{"start":332.601,"end":356.112,"text":"這樣你環境部也不用說遇到事情再來一件一件喬嘛 平常就有機制鼓勵他們自主的去做溝通的時候也許會比較有幫助 好那你剛剛講臺北跟雲林嘛因為桃園現在跟基隆跟新北運作的 有一點成果那剩下的部分希望喔環境部這邊協助桃園市政府來跟其他縣市來做一下合作用交換的方式喔 來降低這個焚化爐稅休的時候這垃圾堆積啊對於桃園的衝擊可以嗎"},{"start":357.253,"end":366.357,"text":"好 可以好 相關的資料這個會後請這個環境部再來跟本席做報告好不好好 謝謝謝謝部長辛苦了好 謝謝牛委員好 謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"151265","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151265","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016275dc7e8090e7ebed7cf744a9f110b3b1fc5dab72e655c1c94feaf8bb4eca54f7e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:06:05 - 11:16:36","影片長度":"00:10:31","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":631,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:16:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:06:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":646,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（11時6分）謝謝召委，我會儘量準時，請黃主委以及消保處處長。"],["主席：請黃主委以及處長。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：主委好。我先舉一個個案，前面8位委員質詢提了很多個案，你就知道這些租賃業者的手法，我實在是非常佩服喔，不只山道猴子喔，包括一些平常去美容院按摩做臉的媽媽也都被騙喔，網路上有朋友傳給我一個訊息，就是因為上美容院，最後變成欠租賃業者一屁股的債，他的媽媽去美容院被推銷按摩然後送產品，所以就簽了一個契約，簽了契約之後，跟媽媽說每個月只要花四千塊的費用，就可以把這些保養品全部都帶回家，所以媽媽就帶了那一整套的保養品回家，家人聽了覺得怪怪的，想拿契約來看，但是沒有契約，最後回到美容中心要求看真正的合約內容，然後要求是不是可以跟租賃公司表示停止付款，甚至是保養品要退貨，但是租賃業者拒絕退貨，有幾個主要原因，包括就是契約上面已經寫了保養品拆開或已經簽約就不可要求退款、退貨等等，所以這些租賃業者的手法非常多。我相信從今天早上到目前為止，許多委員都提出了很多的個案，他們的手法無孔不入，所以我還是要再一次強調。","目前消保處針對六項產業有要求做定型化契約，包括瘦身美容、美容、短期補習班、網際網路教學服務、健身中心、健身教練等這六種行業我們有要求要做定型化的契約跟規範，但是我剛才強調了，這些租賃業者的手法無所不在，那其他的行業呢？我們如何去規範它？有沒有辦法？處長還是主委，因為我實在不知道主管機關是誰。"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：是，報告委員，我們現在的這六項就是針對目前消費爭議比較多的行業來處理，依照消保法第十七條是由主管機關，主管機關就是中央主管機關來選定比較有爭議的行業，所以的確如委員剛剛講的，除了這六個以外的怎麼辦，這也是這一次在討論的，我要跟委員報告一下，定型化契約其實是在規範企業經營者跟消費者，租賃公司……"],["李委員彥秀：處長，你只要告訴我什麼時候，因為我今天時間有限，我很想問到答案，因為這些租賃業者……"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：什麼時候……"],["李委員彥秀：說實話，消費者會覺得被詐騙，這也是詐騙當中的一環，對很多人來說，所以到底什麼時候其他的行業也會規範進來，只要告訴我答案就好了。"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：跟委員報告一下，本處現在是在整理外國立法例，因為剛剛有很多委員在討論要不要有個主管機關以及要不要定專法，剛剛大概都有回應，就是金管會跟經濟部都有做一些回應，這個部分目前處裡面是在整理外國立法例，希望我們把這個整理一下，包括有沒有專法……"],["李委員彥秀：多久？好，多久？"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：我們應該近期就可以把它整理出來，如果整理出來會跟委員報告。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝。"],["鍾處長瑞蘭：謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：黃主委，我希望一個月之內，包括消保處，可以把所有行業的定型化契約，哪些應該載明、哪些不應該載明、哪些不應該放在裡面，把它寫清楚。我覺得，主委，因為我們現在討論的是融資公司缺乏監理的問題，現在很多其實有擔保品的借貸，事實上都只有金融機構可以做，但是現在所有的租賃業者，他們用的手法無所不在。譬如說，我從網路上隨便舉一個例子，上面都寫說貸款的額度可以到達汽車或機車市價兩倍以上，他都可以借，而且薪資相關的證明也可以弄得到，但是事實上這些就是從事無擔保品的借貸行為，看起來是有擔保品，但事實上他從事的就是無擔保品的借貸，就是他走在那種模糊的地帶，做一些放款的業務是規避我們現在既有的法規。所以主委，我要請問，包括網路上的這一則，它到底是合法還是非法？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我沒有辦法從這一頁去判斷，他有沒有標示公司的名稱呢？"],["李委員彥秀：所以，主委，我覺得因為現在從事放款業務，包括無擔保品的，就只有我們金融單位可以做，到底租賃業者可不可以做這件事情？現在很多租賃業者都遊走在法規很模糊的地方去做這些業務，包括定型化契約也寫得不清楚，所以政府應該要做的事情沒有做好，包括主管機關到底是誰，這些被欺騙的消費者，他覺得被詐騙了，但是我們政府居然沒有任何一個單位是主管機關，我個人認為這件事情是非常離譜的，質詢到現在已經接近中午，到底我們未來主管機關有可能是誰？明確了嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，跟您報告您剛剛垂詢的，其實融資公司現在的法據是公司法第十五條，只是他用另外一種方式，應收帳款收買方式擴大他的業務，並不是沒有法據，只是在行為面需要被監管，剛才處長也跟您報告過，其實行政院有討論過，請消保處去研究各國法制，法制研究完之後就可以做一個討論。"],["李委員彥秀：他的行為面沒有被監管到，這個也是很離譜，不管哪一個單位，行為面沒有人監管，這也是蠻離譜的。"],["黃主任委員天牧：貸放的行為這個部分，對，就是跟消費者相關的這個部分。"],["李委員彥秀：其實我問到今天，這個背後可以放款這麼多的業務，我擔心的就是，我不知道公股銀行借款給這些租賃業者到底多少金額，我們擔心的是會不會造成像20年前喬治瑪麗現金卡的事件，到底有多少放款在外面，包括其他委員剛剛講的，他們用什麼樣的方式追款，我覺得這都是值得關注的地方。這些租賃業者的狀況後續衍生的社會問題，我覺得是非常多的，所以我們期待監管單位也好，或者是我們的相關單位，其實主責機關應該要夠清楚，而且行為面超越法令的部分，我覺得我們應該要有更明確的要求，不只這六大行業我們應該高度的監管，其他單位我們也應該要有。","處長你請回。我今天有另一個主題想請問主委，主委，針對上市上櫃公司的永續發展，我們在前年有訂一個「上市上櫃公司永續發展實務守則」，其中第二十七條之一規定，上市上櫃公司可經由捐贈、贊助、投資等等模式，挹注資源給文化藝術活動，並納入作為ESG評鑑的加分項目，有這件事情嘛，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，文化藝術應該是前年加進去的。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，其實我今天關注的，我認為這件事情是值得肯定的，但是教育跟文化是不可分的，包括這次4月3號大地震之後，全臺灣很多公立學校的校舍其實也應該要拆除，包括已經超過50年的，所以我個人非常期待，譬如說以臺北市為例，公立學校有1,530棟校舍，超過50年的將近有三分之一，接下來20年之內將近有1,300棟校舍會超過50年，這是臺北市的狀況，更不要說全國的狀況。但是我們都知道，教育部也好，地方政府也好，能夠有錢撥資源去修繕校舍或是重建校舍的金額真的非常少，我們常常在說苦不能苦孩子，我們希望給孩子一個更好的教育空間，所以我覺得企業界要回饋，要捐贈也好，要投資也好，我非常希望這一塊，我們也常常在講教育跟文化密不可分，所以在這一塊未來ESG的評鑑，有沒有機會也加入教育的部分，將這一塊也加進來？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，您的垂詢可以交代這個內容，我們去研究。"],["李委員彥秀：主委，你個人覺得這個方向可不可行，你的看法呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：當然，ESG當中的S其實範圍很廣……"],["李委員彥秀：社會責任當然也包含……企業回饋當然也是其中一環，所以我非常期待主委你能支持這件事情。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我基本上覺得您講的的確是關心國人的教育問題，我覺得這是國家發展最重要的核心競爭力……"],["李委員彥秀：文化跟教育也不可分嘛。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，我個人表達願意朝正面方向去處理，那請您交代下來，我們立刻去研究。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝主委您正面的回應。我也希望雖然520要交接，您要離開，但是我覺得您在這一塊的方向跟思考非常完整也非常清楚，我還是希望在現場的同仁，可以把教育這一塊也納入ESG第二十七條之一裡面去思考，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，謝謝委員垂詢。謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員的質詢，我們休息10分鐘。","休息（11時16分）","繼續開會（11時27分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會，請各位就座。相關人員請迅速就位，請會場人員安靜，接著我們請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-8","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","王世堅","顏寬恒","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","羅明才","林楚茵","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","吳春城","陳亭妃","王定宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就\n「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.334093750000001,"end":10.290968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.98284375,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.29909375,"end":12.450968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.767218750000001,"end":17.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.559718750000002,"end":49.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.67721875,"end":96.28596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.72471875000001,"end":135.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.78596875,"end":138.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.95846875,"end":141.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.94971875000002,"end":142.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.92409375,"end":148.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.86846875,"end":149.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.01596875,"end":167.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.26221875000002,"end":179.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.02409375000002,"end":182.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.15034375000002,"end":182.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.78284375,"end":190.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.57159375,"end":186.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.41534375,"end":186.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.66846875000002,"end":186.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.87096875,"end":186.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.95034375,"end":195.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.20721875,"end":195.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.35909375,"end":223.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.04784375000003,"end":216.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.29659375000003,"end":217.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.03409375,"end":252.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.35471875000002,"end":223.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.63284375,"end":293.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.70221875000004,"end":299.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.87409375000004,"end":307.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.64096875,"end":316.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.04471875,"end":318.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.91784375000003,"end":329.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.46471875000003,"end":330.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.54471875,"end":339.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.46721875000003,"end":354.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.97971875,"end":358.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.96221875000003,"end":361.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.83096875,"end":362.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.80534375,"end":373.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.26784375,"end":375.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.15784375000004,"end":388.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.84346875,"end":392.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.86409375000005,"end":398.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.63534375,"end":403.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.68096875000003,"end":436.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.14409375,"end":438.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.32096875,"end":441.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.03784375000004,"end":487.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.29659375000006,"end":490.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.57034375,"end":493.16909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.60784375000003,"end":555.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.18034375,"end":565.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.56284375,"end":569.3428437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.93346875,"end":570.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.96721875,"end":573.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.86096875,"end":578.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":578.64096875,"end":583.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.02846875,"end":583.1297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.1297187499999,"end":583.2140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.2140937500001,"end":583.3828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.3828437500001,"end":583.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.45034375,"end":583.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.48409375,"end":583.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.75409375,"end":593.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":585.3234687500001,"end":585.4753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":593.96346875,"end":610.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.01159375,"end":613.2178437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.94346875,"end":627.8484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.6628437500001,"end":631.1897187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.707,"end":7.05,"text":"主委好,我想我先舉一個個案"},{"start":19.458,"end":45.465,"text":"從前面八位委員質詢提了很多個案你就知道這些租賃業者手法我實在是非常佩服不只三道猴子包括在美容院的這些平常去按摩做臉的媽媽都被騙我從網路上有一個朋友傳給我一個訊息就是說他上美容院都因為上美容院最後變成被這個租賃業者欠了一筆股的債"},{"start":46.365,"end":54.351,"text":"朋友的媽媽去美容院被推銷按摩然後要送產品那所以就簽了一個契約那簽了契約之後他跟他講說每個月只要花4000塊來付費那就可以把這些保養品全部都帶回家"},{"start":62.657,"end":81.982,"text":"所以回家之後帶回那一整套的保養品之後家人聽一聽覺得怪怪的想拿契約來看但是沒有契約最後才回到這個美容中心去要求看真正的合約的內容然後要求說是不是可以跟註定公司只付款甚至是保養品要退貨"},{"start":83.022,"end":109.871,"text":"但是租賃業者拒絕退貨有幾個主要原因包括就是說他契約上面已經寫了這個保安品拆開了或已經簽了約就不可要求退款退貨等等所以這些租賃業者的手法非常多我相信從今天早上到目前為止許多委員都提出了很多的個案他們手法這個無孔不入所以我還是要再一次強調就是說我覺得"},{"start":110.711,"end":138.521,"text":"目前消保處針對於6項產業有要求做定型化契約包括瘦身美容短期補習班跟網際網路教學服務健身中心、健身教練等這6種行業我們有要求要做一些定型化的契約跟規範但是我剛才強調了這些租賃業者的手法無所不在那其他的行業呢"},{"start":140.014,"end":147.219,"text":"我們如何去規範它有沒有辦法處長還是主委因為我不知道主管機關是誰是"},{"start":150.811,"end":175.681,"text":"報導委員就是有關於我們現在目前是針對我們這6項就是現在目前消費爭議比較多的行業來處理那依照我們超寶法17條我們就是選由主管機關主管機關就是中央主管機關來選定比較有爭議的行業所以的確委員剛剛講的說那除了這6個以外怎麼辦那這也是這一次就是說在討論其實主要我要跟委員報告一下就是說定型化企業其實是在規範企業經營者跟消費者那租賃"},{"start":176.361,"end":189.328,"text":"處長你只要告訴我什麼時候因為我今天時間有限我很想問到答案因為這些租賃業者消費者會不會覺得被詐騙這也是詐騙當中其中一環對很多人來說所以"},{"start":191.991,"end":217.683,"text":"到底什麼時候其他的行業也會規範進來只要告訴我答案就好了我跟委員報告一下本處現在是在整理外國立法例因為現在有關於剛剛有很多委員在討論要不要一個主管機關以及要不要訂專法那剛剛大概都有回應就是有一些就是金管會跟經濟部都有做一些回應那我這個部分我們現在目前處裡面是在整理外國立法例那希望我們把這個整理整理一下包括有沒有辦法多久好多久"},{"start":218.163,"end":235.816,"text":"我們應該近期就可以把它整理出來,如果整理出來會跟委員報告。好,謝謝。黃主委,我希望一個月之內,包括消保處可以把所有行業定型化的契約,哪些應該載明,哪些不應該載明,哪些不應該放在裡面把它寫清楚。"},{"start":236.616,"end":251.395,"text":"我覺得主委現在很多就是因為我們現在討論是融資公司缺乏監理的問題現在很多其實都有單保品的借貸的事實上都只有我們金融機構可以做"},{"start":252.757,"end":277.685,"text":"但是現在所有的租賃業者他們用的手法無所不在比如說我從網路上隨便舉一個例子他都寫說汽車市價兩倍以上他可以貸款的額度可以到達汽車或機車市價兩倍以上他都可以借而且可以有薪資什麼相關的證明也可以弄得到但是事實上這些就是從事無單保品的這個借貸的行為"},{"start":279.906,"end":281.646,"text":"我沒有辦法從這一頁去判斷他有沒有標示公司的名稱"},{"start":308.758,"end":328.181,"text":"所以主委我覺得因為現在從事販款業務包括無擔保品的就只有我們金融單位可以做到底租賃業者可不可以做這件事情現在很多租賃業者都遊走在法規很模糊的地方去做這些業務"},{"start":329.642,"end":353.163,"text":"所以包括定型化契約也寫得不清楚所以政府應該要做的事情沒有做好包括主管機關到底是誰這些被欺騙的消費者他覺得被詐騙了但是我們政府居然沒有一個任何兩位是一個主管機關我個人認為這件事情是非常離譜的"},{"start":355.091,"end":362.439,"text":"所以到底今天質詢到現在已經接近中午我們未來主管機關有可能是誰?明確了嗎?"},{"start":363.82,"end":387.566,"text":"委員跟您報告您剛垂詢的其實融資公司現在的法據是公司法15條只是他用另外一種方式因收賬款收買方式擴大他的業務並不是沒有法據那只是在行為面需要被監管剛才處長也跟您報告過其實行政院有討論過請消保處去研究相關各國法制那法制研究完之後就可以做一個討論"},{"start":389.878,"end":402.958,"text":"他的行為面沒有被監管到這個也是一個很離譜不管哪一個單位行為面沒有人監管這也是滿離譜的帶放的行為這個部分就跟消費者相關的這個部分"},{"start":403.772,"end":420.284,"text":"所以我其實問到今天其實這個背後可以放款這麼多的業務我擔心的啦就是說我不知道我不知道公股銀行借款給這些豬立業者到底有多少的金額到底我們擔心的是會不會造成像20年前喬治馬利現金卡的事件"},{"start":422.125,"end":422.325,"text":"主席的意見"},{"start":439.401,"end":457.738,"text":"所以我們期待其實監管單位也好或者是我們相關單位其實組織機關應該要夠清楚而且這是行為面超越法令的部分我覺得我們應該要有更明確的要求那不只這六大行業我們應該高度的監管其他單位我們也應該要有好 處長你請問我今天有另外一個主要的議題我想要請問主委"},{"start":464.184,"end":492.698,"text":"主委我們現在針對上市商櫃公司永續發展我們在前年有定一個規範就是針對27條之一上市商櫃公司可以經由捐助、贊助、投資益助資源給文化藝術活動加入我們所謂的ESG永續發展的這個納入ESG裡面做加分的評鑑有這件事情嗎?對不對?有,文化藝術應該是前年加進去的好,主委我今天關注的"},{"start":494.239,"end":508.358,"text":"其實我認為這件事情是值得肯定的但是教育跟文化是不可分的所以包括這一次4月3號大地震之後全台灣其實很多公立學校的校舍"},{"start":509.039,"end":525.85,"text":"其實也應該要拆除包括它已經超過50年所以我非常我個人非常期待譬如說以台北市為例有公立學校有1530棟校舍有超過50年的將近有三分之一那接下來20年之內將近有1300棟校舍會超過50年那"},{"start":530.132,"end":549.392,"text":"這是臺北市的狀況更不要說全國的狀況但是我們都知道教育部也好地方政府也好其實能夠有錢撥資源去修善校舍或重建校舍的金額真的非常少我們常常在說苦不能苦了孩子我們希望給孩子一個更好的教育空間"},{"start":550.213,"end":551.054,"text":"我認為您的詢詢可以交代這個內容我們去研究"},{"start":575.112,"end":593.021,"text":"主委你個人覺得這個方向可不可行?你的看法呢?社會責任當然也包含企業的回饋當然也包含在其中一環所以我非常期待主委你能支持這件事情"},{"start":593.988,"end":594.708,"text":"好,謝謝主委您正面的回應,我也希望"},{"start":614.053,"end":614.193,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151264","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151264","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f0162726a280c65fa16c9e8f48eb7d2985ecdbc5dab72e655c1c94ef0ba9769f5742f75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:03:50 - 11:11:41","影片長度":"00:07:51","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。【第四案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[15,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":471,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:11:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T11:03:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":541,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時3分）謝謝主席，本席有請原民會主委。"],["主席：有請鍾副主委，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：還有農業部林業及自然保育署林副署長。"],["主席：好，副署長。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席想請教，我們都知道竹子生長是最快速、再生性強，而且用途很廣的植物，碳吸存的能力比木材還要強，在實現聯合國永續發展目標中可以扮演重要的角色，例如以竹代木、以竹代鋼、以竹代塑，甚至以竹勝木，都是農業部和相關主管機關努力的課題。我看到副署長一直點頭，但是我們發現，從民國97年到109年，國產竹材生產量比較表中，我們可以看到原住民保留地的竹材減產最為明顯，首先本席想請教副主委，您知道原因嗎？我們秀出這個圖片，我們看到97年一直到109年的資料，整個竹材產量一直減產，這是什麼樣的因素？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，從數字上去看的確是有明顯的降低，所以我們跟農業部都有一些合作，針對竹林更新獎勵的規範，希望族人能夠針對這裡協助他們疏伐，然後再做竹林開採等相關工作。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，本席主要請教的是，為什麼會這樣？減少的這麼明顯？從2,267千支到最後剩285千支？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：在做禁伐補償之後可能也有一些影響。"],["徐委員欣瑩：喔，對，那有沒有什麼具體改進措施？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這個部分我們是鼓勵族人疏伐。"],["徐委員欣瑩：就用這樣的方式？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是、是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，希望能夠來加強。再來，本席也想請教一下我們的副署長，從短期的多元利用、技術整合開發到中期的提升品牌知名度、竹子教育的建構等等，再到長期的申請認證都涉及技術和法規的問題，有沒有相關具體方案可以來針對新興竹產業發展計畫，你們111年到114年也有提，現在進入第3年了，整個來說有沒有什麼具體的成果？計畫執行進度是否如期？剩下的一年半期程還有哪些規劃？"],["林副署長澔貞：這個部分因為112年行政院核了一個新興竹產業的計畫，目前來說，我們是依照整體的計畫分幾個階段，尤其是產業端等等的去做執行。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席最想問的是，竹子是一個這麼好……"],["林副署長澔貞：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：而且我們可以好好的來發展，像本席所在的新竹縣，我們竹東鎮以前早期有很多的特色產業，竹席、竹簾、竹筷等等，可是現在都慢慢的沒落，所以我們主要就是希望相關單位是不是能夠有一些具體的作法？"],["林副署長澔貞：我們在去年的2月1號訂定了一個原住民保留地竹林更新獎勵作業規範，這個作業規範獎勵就是希望原住民族去做竹林的更新，如果有依據我們這個作業規範的話，我們也提供大概3萬元的經費補助做鼓勵，去年是第一年，剛剛推出這樣的新措施，去年大概比較是在行銷、宣導等等的規範，不過去年在新竹的尖石鄉大概也有29件提出獎勵更新，面積大概有27公頃，我們會慢慢的推動，希望能夠去做更新的作業，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：謝謝，本席希望能夠看到成效，謝謝副主委跟副署長，也謝謝主席。","本席想請環境部氣候變遷署的蘇組長。"],["主席：請蘇組長。"],["蘇組長意筠：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，本席想請教有關淨零排放、淨零轉型，我們面對氣候變遷嚴峻的挑戰，環境部也舉辦了一系列的淨零排放技術訓練課程，本席也認為這個勢必絕對要大力支持，而且淨零議題也是我們全民共同努力的課題和目標。"],["蘇組長意筠：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們看到環境部國家環境研究院舉辦的課程，我們特別秀出來，有針對18到35歲開設專班，我覺得淨零排放這樣的議題好像不是只有針對年輕人，應該包括其他年齡層，甚至鼓勵現在更多年輕人投入相關工作，那你們為什麼只有針對18到35歲免費而其他收費，這原因是什麼？"],["蘇組長意筠：跟委員報告，站在環境部的立場，其實希望不管是哪個年齡層都可以來增加這方面的智能，這次在青年的部分來講，最主要是鼓勵學生從學校出來之後，面對新興的市場或是新興的議題，有這個誘因機制，能夠減輕這些學子要進入這個市場的負擔跟門檻，所以才有這樣的設計。不過整體來說，部裡就相關的課程來講，都會比外面坊間課程來得低廉而且會提供一些比較正確而且第一手的資訊給大家，剛才委員所提的部分，我們會再做一個滾動式的檢討。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為淨零的一些觀念還有你們的一些推動，都需要大量的讓我們國人來認識。"],["蘇組長意筠：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是設定這樣一定年齡內才免費的話，你這樣其實會推廣不易啊！不瞞你說，本席對這一塊也一直在推動，可是我們感覺政府所做的宣導不夠落實，當然你現在如果又有一個費用的門檻，可能讓大家就更不關心這個議題，當然我們也可以瞭解，對初入社會還有對學生來說，確實是有誘因，就像我們的車票有學生票，但是有沒有可能在推廣上你們可以在做得更深入，然後推廣的更落實呢？"],["蘇組長意筠：是，謝謝委員提醒，這個部分我們可以後續再做一個滾動式的檢討，這個部分我們會來努力。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK，謝謝。"],["蘇組長意筠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：非常謝謝徐欣瑩委員，也謝謝組長，我們休息5分鐘，然後繼續開會。謝謝。","休息（11時11分）","繼續開會（11時17分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。請問一下，我們的官員都到了嗎？幾個重要的都在了，好，我們繼續請邱志偉委員來質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃捷","麥玉珍","張宏陸","許宇甄","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","王美惠","賴瑞隆","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","張智倫","張嘉郡","黃仁","謝衣鳯","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二、\n審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正\n草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例\n第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":0.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.8072187500000001,"end":3.0178437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.7815937500000003,"end":4.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.03034375,"end":4.890968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.31721875,"end":4.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.32971875,"end":9.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.215343750000002,"end":9.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.020968750000002,"end":10.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.18971875,"end":10.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.40909375,"end":10.763468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.598468750000002,"end":14.070968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.04534375,"end":16.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.19284375,"end":19.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.555343750000002,"end":24.989093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.242218750000003,"end":27.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.22909375,"end":31.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":31.772843750000003,"end":36.869093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.54409375,"end":40.125968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.27784375,"end":42.775343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.36596875,"end":51.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.02284375,"end":52.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":53.65971875,"end":55.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.02221875,"end":63.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.37534375,"end":72.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.67784375000001,"end":73.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.87596875,"end":76.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.62659375,"end":76.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.87971875000001,"end":79.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.60909375,"end":91.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.03346875000001,"end":93.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.31596875000001,"end":94.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.18909375000001,"end":97.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.36596875000001,"end":97.99034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.71596875,"end":98.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.73284375,"end":98.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.86784375,"end":98.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.37409375,"end":114.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.51284375,"end":102.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.76409375,"end":123.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.21846875000001,"end":126.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.12909375,"end":131.40284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.40284375000002,"end":134.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.34721875,"end":138.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.03471875,"end":138.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.96284375000002,"end":138.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.21596875,"end":146.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.41721875000002,"end":170.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.94096875000002,"end":189.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.26284375,"end":210.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.91409375,"end":233.36159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.44471875000002,"end":214.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.28409375,"end":216.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.85784375,"end":216.87471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.40784375,"end":238.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.50846875000002,"end":238.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.98096875000002,"end":293.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.37471875,"end":284.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.40846875,"end":284.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.56346875,"end":291.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.66034375000004,"end":306.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.47284375000004,"end":304.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.52346875,"end":305.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":312.67409375,"end":365.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.81534375,"end":326.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.10221875,"end":327.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.16971875,"end":327.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.59409375,"end":400.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":399.81659375000004,"end":407.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.12346875000003,"end":407.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.19096875,"end":407.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.52846875,"end":407.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":407.66346875000005,"end":413.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":414.19409375000004,"end":436.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.67034375000003,"end":418.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":436.58721875000003,"end":456.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.79096875000005,"end":461.17409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.35971875,"end":463.73909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":464.71784375000004,"end":470.89409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.129,"end":8.996,"text":"立法院第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等"},{"start":28.274,"end":48.269,"text":"碳稀存的能力比木材還要強,在實現聯合國永續發展目標中可以扮演重要的角色,例如以竹代木、以竹代鋼、以竹代塑、甚至以竹剩木都是農業部和相關主管機關的努力課題。"},{"start":53.803,"end":78.668,"text":"但是我們發現,從民國97年到109年,國產的竹材生產量,比較表中我們可以看到,原住民保留地的竹材減產最為明顯。首先本席想請教主委,移將主委,您知道,副主委,今天是副主委,對不起。"},{"start":80.623,"end":80.863,"text":"審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具"},{"start":99.878,"end":117.106,"text":"對,從數字上去看的確是有明顯的降低,所以我們跟農業部都有一些合作,針對竹林更新獎勵的規範,希望主任能夠針對這裡協助他們抒罰,然後再做一個竹林的開採等相關的工作。對,本席主要請教是說,那為什麼會這樣減少的這麼明顯?從2267千隻到最後剩285,"},{"start":128.174,"end":134.137,"text":"在做禁法補償之後可能也有一些影響。對,那有沒有什麼具體改進措施?這個部門我們是鼓勵族人抒罰。就用這樣的方式?是。好,希望能夠來加強。那再來就是說,"},{"start":147.472,"end":166.84,"text":"本席也想請教一下我們的副署長那從短期的多元利用技術整合開發到中期的提升品牌知名度阻止教育的建構等等再到長期的申請認證都涉及技術和法規的問題那有沒有相關具體方案可以來針對我們這個"},{"start":171.242,"end":174.524,"text":"新興竹產業發展計劃計劃執行進度是否如期?剩下的一年半期程還有哪些規劃?"},{"start":191.734,"end":208.327,"text":"這部分因為112年那個行政院合了一個新興族產業的一個計劃那目前來說的話我們是就依照我們整體的一個計劃就分幾個階段那尤其是產業端等等的這些"},{"start":210.829,"end":238.007,"text":"對本席最想問的是這個竹子是一個這麼好而且我們可以好好的來發展的好像本席所在的新竹縣我們竹東鎮以前早期有很多的特色產業竹席竹簾竹筷等等的那可是現在都慢慢的沒落所以我們主要就是希望這個我們這相關單位這裡是不是能夠有一些具體的做法"},{"start":239.093,"end":262.894,"text":"我們在去年的2月1號就訂定了一個原住民保留地竹林更新獎勵作業規範那這個作業規範獎勵的部分就是希望說原住民原住民族這些那去做一個竹林的更新那這個部分如果你有依據我們這個作業規範的話我們也提供相關的大概3萬元的經費去做一些補助"},{"start":263.234,"end":264.456,"text":"及第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":280.978,"end":303.327,"text":"大約29件提出獎勵更新,面積約27公頃,我們會慢慢推動,希望能夠去做更新作業。本席希望能夠看到成效。謝謝副主委跟副署長。也謝謝主席。本席想請環境部氣候變遷署的蘇組長。"},{"start":314.249,"end":335.34,"text":"本席想請教有關淨零排放、淨零轉型是我們面對氣候變遷嚴峻的挑戰環境部也舉辦了一系列的淨零排放技術訓練課程本席也認為這個勢必是絕對要大力支持而且淨零議題也是我們全民共同努力的課題和目標"},{"start":336.3,"end":351.625,"text":"第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。七、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。九、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具第六條條文修正"},{"start":365.629,"end":376.478,"text":"立法院第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「"},{"start":394.012,"end":412.261,"text":"第一聯二期會提供比較正確而且比較第一手的資訊給大家。」那剛剛委員所提的部分我們會再做一個滾動的檢討。因為近鄰的一些觀念還有你們的推動都需要大量的讓我們國人來認識但是好像我們如果有設置我們有設定這樣的一個"},{"start":414.281,"end":420.385,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":436.596,"end":442.339,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":464.775,"end":466.317,"text":"條例第6條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財"}]}},{"id":"151263","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151263","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f0162713311281852988128f48eb7d2985ecdbc5dab72e655c1c94326f75fe264bb47e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"10:58:38 - 11:03:08","影片長度":"00:04:30","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。【第四案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[15,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":270,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:03:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:58:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":512,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（10時59分）召委、與會同仁，請原民會副主委。"],["主席：有請鍾副主委，謝謝。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：副主委好。副主委，針對原住民保留地禁伐補償條例，從過去的3萬，現在要提升到5萬，甚至有人提到6萬，本席對原住民都是予以支持。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員琪銘：我現在都是比較注重在，從105年原住民保留地禁伐補償上路，當初（105年）的面積是2.4萬公頃，到113年面積已經達到7萬2,000公頃，其實我們的禁伐補償條例，禁伐就是沒有做任何開墾，但是我們原住民有很多的果園、很多的建築物，透過衛星影像的空拍資訊是不是會造成誤差，這個部分請你來做一個說明。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，當事人如果申請之後有一些條件，它必須是林地或者是我們公告，因為我們現在對這個部分的作業，在第九條第一項有明定禁伐補償的管理系統，我們有建置一個系統出來，是去年建置的。對於誤差的部分，我想應該會減少，而且我們今年度開始做紙本以及電子方式的申請辦理，所以這部分的誤差，我們應該會做一些年度的檢討跟精進。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為我看105年核定補償的面積是2.4萬公頃。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：到113年7.2萬公頃，超過的面積、申請的面積也有擴大，我是避免說……不是禁伐區域在衛星套圖的精準度高不高？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我想電子化之後，它的精準度應該會非常高。"],["吳委員琪銘：這樣喔？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是、是。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，因為我們錢要花的……"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我們以前都是用人力去目測……"],["吳委員琪銘：要給他們作為補償的話，不要讓有心人士來做操作，那就失去我們的意義了。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是、是。"],["吳委員琪銘：這我們一定要特別注意，像很多的果園還有倉儲，包含道路等，他們要是來做申請，我們還是要特別的注意，因為錢也不能亂浪費。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，跟委員報告，我們查核的機制也有一些層次，比如說原來申請地籍的面積必須要串接地政系統來檢核它的地籍面積，而且他申請檢驗合格的面積要小於地籍的面積，也透過縣市政府來檢核，所以這部分也會再提供人工查核以避免錯誤，我們都有層層關卡去做檢核。"],["吳委員琪銘：對，因為該把關的我們還是要把關，好不好？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是、是，這個沒有問題。"],["吳委員琪銘：那我再請問副主委，要是今天我們有的委員提到5萬、有的提到6萬，要是今天我們要通過的話，那你的整個預算呢？整個預算編列，你來得及嗎？絕對來不及嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為那是針對114年才開始，所以現在還在籌編114年的部分。"],["吳委員琪銘：這樣喔？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝吳琪銘召委，謝謝。","繼續我們請徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩，徐欣瑩委員不在，在路上嗎？還是不在？好，那我們就先休息一下好了，剛剛本來是徐欣瑩委員之後休息5分鐘。好，現在請徐欣瑩委員來質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃捷","麥玉珍","張宏陸","許宇甄","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","王美惠","賴瑞隆","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","張智倫","張嘉郡","黃仁","謝衣鳯","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二、\n審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正\n草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例\n第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.7815937500000003,"end":7.709093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.96221875,"end":16.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.01409375,"end":33.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.10596875,"end":33.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.78909375,"end":36.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.51471875,"end":104.95971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.32659375,"end":52.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.73159375,"end":52.782218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.06096875,"end":105.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.97221875000001,"end":124.06221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.30721875,"end":122.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.38284375,"end":126.84659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.48784375000001,"end":129.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.93471875,"end":144.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.13909375,"end":156.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.95159375,"end":170.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.36284375000002,"end":171.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.27409375000002,"end":172.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.58596875,"end":174.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.60284375,"end":174.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.78409375,"end":178.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.97346875000002,"end":180.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.56409375,"end":179.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.03659375,"end":180.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.17159375,"end":191.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.52596875,"end":182.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.97159375,"end":191.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.66346875000002,"end":209.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.43284375000002,"end":213.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.68534375000002,"end":219.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.30909375000002,"end":218.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.39346875,"end":218.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.62971875000002,"end":218.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.72659375,"end":233.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.86784375000002,"end":237.19221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.35721875000002,"end":234.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.02784375000002,"end":237.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.51284375,"end":253.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.32034375,"end":257.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.53909375,"end":260.49659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.93534375,"end":261.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.52596875,"end":261.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.52159375,"end":263.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.11221875,"end":264.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.95971875000004,"end":266.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.99346875000003,"end":269.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.02721875000003,"end":267.06096875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.709,"end":7.214,"text":"有我們是配合政府,我們的私人土地被限制利用了,這叫做補償,不是照顧。」"},{"start":27.042,"end":32.067,"text":"條例第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":35.816,"end":53.07,"text":"地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案。七、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六"},{"start":59.635,"end":68.12,"text":"禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":74.704,"end":88.326,"text":"地禁伐補償條例第六條及第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條及第六條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條及第六條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條及第六條條文修正草案案。七、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條及第六條條文修正草案案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條及第六條條文修正�"},{"start":102.589,"end":111.737,"text":"立法院第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。"},{"start":127.577,"end":138.57,"text":"及第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":145.145,"end":164.014,"text":"第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案。三"},{"start":174.565,"end":182.607,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":198.431,"end":208.856,"text":"審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":227.245,"end":252.641,"text":"所以這個部分也會提供人工再做一個查核以避免他的錯誤,我想我們都有層層關卡去做一個檢核。對,因為該把關的我們還是要把關。是,是,這個沒有問題。那我再請問副主委,那要是今天我們有的委員提到5萬,有的提到6萬,那要是今天我們要來通過的話,那你的整個預算勒?整個預算的編列,你來得起嗎?絕對來不及嗎?"},{"start":254.326,"end":255.726,"text":"及第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具"}]}},{"id":"151262","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151262","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f0162781cf94b5405bad6a8f48eb7d2985ecdbc5dab72e655c1c94c18ca0ae6bcd6fd35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:52:15 - 10:58:27","影片長度":"00:06:12","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。【第四案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[15,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":372,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:58:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:52:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":498,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（10時52分）請鍾副主委。"],["主席（高金委員素梅）：有請鍾副主委，謝謝。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：我們今天要審議原住民保留地禁伐補償條例，我們也很認真地去審視一下，在2015年通過這個條例之後，2016年開始編列預算支應這些相關的經費，2016年申請的有2.4公頃，金額大概3億，到2017年申請了3.8萬公頃，大概11億，然後逐年地增加，到2023年也就是去年，一共申請了7.2萬公頃，總金額是二十二億多，這是逐年增加的。","在今天的提案裡面，我剛剛也聽了高金召委的描述，過去經過很多原住民立委們的努力，從原本沒有增加到2萬，再增加到每年每公頃3萬，目前到2024年的總面積是8萬公頃，已經申請到7.2萬公頃，已有4萬5,700個原住民朋友因這個條例可以申請補償經費，到今年為止，原民會所編列的補償金額總計是124億。","我們在這裡表達，因為我們也看到3月1號的時候，當時是陳建仁院長，由伍麗華委員在總質詢的時候針對這個條例所提出的質詢內容，當時陳建仁院長也是持正面的態度，當時原民會主委也是持正面的態度，但就是要修法。","我們現在遇到一個很尷尬的時間點，我相信原民會在這邊也是支持原住民的禁伐補償條例，如果可以提高，當然是對原住民的一個照顧，但是所有的修法如果牽涉到經費的話、牽涉到預算的話，它確實需要行政單位的整體評估。還有更重要的一點，我們身為立法單位，遇到這種預算問題的話，其實也必須要負責地跟行政單位來討論整體預算到底會增加多少，不是說增加十幾億會影響到國家財政，而是必須要有這個討論與過程。","在新政府520即將要上任、在新內閣520即將要上任之前，我們來通過這一個法案到底對於新政府是必須要買單，還是說我們可以再做進一步的溝通？我們也看到國民黨的版本是提出增加到5萬元、民進黨伍麗華的版本是提出增加到6萬元，我們當然更希望新政府有其他的想法，是在5萬元以上，甚至是在6萬元，一起來支持可以落實照顧原住民保留地禁伐補償條例的措施，讓朝野共同來推動這一個法案，我覺得這是我們期待的。所以我們也期待，如果等一下可以進入逐條討論的時候，也要尊重未來行政院、未來新內閣對原住民這些補償條例的一些想法跟看法。","我在這邊必須要提出，當新任的立法委員跟即將上任的新內閣要做新的預算討論的時候，對於憲政上必須要負的一些責任跟分際。除了在這邊表達個人以及民進黨對於伍麗華委員在這個條例提高到6萬元的支持之外，也希望我們跟新內閣、新政府可以有憲政上的分際尊重，以上其實是副主委沒有辦法說出來的話，雖然你必須要表達支持，但是對於預算你沒有能力表達支持，副主委，是不是這樣子？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：預算未來因為要整體考量籌編，所以可能可以納入我們未來內部討論的部分。"],["李委員柏毅：我也在其他政府單位草擬過預算，每一個部會所提出來的預算，大概是當年度預算的3倍，最後一定要經過行政院整體的評估考量再來做定案。我們也期待520之後，禁伐條例的預算額度可以增加，落實到照顧我們的原住民朋友，也對於先前所有原住民委員對這個條例的努力表達尊敬。感謝！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：非常謝謝柏毅委員。召委在這邊修正一下，不是「照顧」，因為這個是我們的土地被限制，所以沒有「照顧」這樣的字眼，好不好？謝謝。希望大家以後能修正一下，因為我們是配合政府，我們的私人土地被限制利用了，這叫做「補償」，不是「照顧」，謝謝。","繼續請張智倫、張智倫，張智倫委員提書面質詢。","繼續請吳琪銘召委。謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃捷","麥玉珍","張宏陸","許宇甄","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","王美惠","賴瑞隆","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","張智倫","張嘉郡","黃仁","謝衣鳯","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二、\n審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正\n草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例\n第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.189093750000001,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.17596875,"end":18.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.12471875,"end":42.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.977843750000005,"end":43.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.81721875,"end":49.947218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.40284375,"end":51.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.314093750000005,"end":53.440343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.59221875,"end":67.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.71659375,"end":72.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.59346875,"end":72.66096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.71159375,"end":72.89721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.89721875000001,"end":119.45534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.92784375000001,"end":121.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.07096875,"end":123.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.04534375,"end":124.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.27721875,"end":131.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.41971875000002,"end":131.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.77409375000002,"end":161.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.59221875,"end":175.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.36221875,"end":188.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.87909375,"end":204.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.80909375000002,"end":226.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.53971875000002,"end":232.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.53471875000002,"end":236.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.82096875000002,"end":262.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.89284375,"end":268.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.90034375,"end":273.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.18659375000004,"end":279.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.73409375,"end":316.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.12909375000004,"end":323.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.79471875,"end":323.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.92096875000004,"end":332.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.75534375,"end":337.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.03721875,"end":338.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.37471875,"end":344.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.07409375000003,"end":353.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.20784375,"end":355.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.94159375000004,"end":366.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.12971875000005,"end":368.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.36971875,"end":372.19221875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":18.719,"text":"第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第1條條文修正草案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第1條條文修正草案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第1條條文修正草案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第1條條文修正草案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第1條條文修正草案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第1條條文修正草案。七、審查委員鄭天"},{"start":22.359,"end":32.429,"text":"我們今天要審議原住民保留地禁伐條例那我們也很認真的去審視了一下從2015年開始這個條例通過之後2016年開始有編列預算開始支應這些相關的這些經費以後從2016年的"},{"start":44.875,"end":69.002,"text":"二點申請有2.4公頃裡面大概金額大概3億到2017年申請有3.8萬公頃那大概11億每年然後在逐年的增加到2023年也就是去年一共申請了7.2萬公頃那總金額是22億多"},{"start":73.703,"end":97.902,"text":"這次逐年增加而且在今天的提案裡面不管是過去我剛也聽了這個高金委員高金召委描述經過很多包含我們原住民立委們的努力那把這個原本的原本的沒有到原本的兩萬那增加到每年每公頃的三萬目前到2024年"},{"start":100.324,"end":104.769,"text":"總面積80,000公頃,已經申請到7.2萬公頃,已經有45,700個受條例可以申請補償經費的原住民朋友,"},{"start":120.054,"end":144.333,"text":"今年為止原民會所編列的這些補償的金額總計是124億。」我們在這裡表達因為我們也看了3月1號的時候當時還是陳建仁院長由立法委員他在總質詢的時候提出的這個質詢"},{"start":146.655,"end":161.095,"text":"針對這個條例來提出質詢的內容他當時是陳建仁院長也是朝正面的態度那我想我們當時的原住民的這個主委也是朝正面的態度但是就是要修法"},{"start":161.676,"end":177.646,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第6條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11屆第6條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11屆第6條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11屆第6條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住"},{"start":189.213,"end":204.251,"text":"還有更重要一點我們身為立法單位遇到這種預算的問題的話其實也必須要跟行政單位負責的來討論整體預算到底會增加多少"},{"start":204.972,"end":226.703,"text":"不是說增加十幾億會影響到國家財政而是必須要有這個討論跟過程所以在新政府520即將要上任在新內閣520即將要上任的時候之前我們來通過這個法案到底對於新政府是你必須要買單還是說我們可以再做進一步的溝通"},{"start":227.583,"end":233.726,"text":"及第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":243.531,"end":267.148,"text":"來一起來支持這個可以落實照顧原住民保留地的禁伐補償條例的這個措施讓草野共同來推動這個方案我覺得是我們期待的所以我們也期待如果等一下可以進來這個做逐條討論的時候也要尊重未來行政院、未來新內閣"},{"start":269.53,"end":292.29,"text":"對我們原住民這些補償條例的一些想法跟看法這是我在這邊必須要提出我們正當新任的立法委員跟可能即將的新內閣必須要做這個新的這些預算的討論的時候必須要對於憲政上必須要負的一些責任跟分際在這邊表達民進黨團"},{"start":295.372,"end":323.356,"text":"在這邊表達個人以及民進黨其實五立法委員對於這個條例提高到6萬元的支持之外那也希望我們可以跟新內閣、新政府可以有這個憲政上的奮起的這個尊重那以上其實是副主委沒有辦法說出來的話你必須要表達支持但是你對於預算你沒有能力表達支持副主委是不是這樣子"},{"start":326.353,"end":354.853,"text":"對預算未來因為要整體要考量籌編所以可能可以加入我們未來去內部討論的部分。我也在其他政府單位草擬過預算每一個部會所提出來的預算大概是當年度的預算的三倍最後一定要經過行政院整體的評估考量再來做這個定案我們也期待520之後這個禁法條例的預算"},{"start":356.184,"end":365.712,"text":"額度可以增加落實到照顧我們的原住民朋友。那也對於先前所有原住民委員對這個條例的努力表達尊敬感謝。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151261","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151261","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627aaf4772a920363ab8f48eb7d2985ecdbc5dab72e655c1c941c4693f331ba09535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:43:13 - 10:52:06","影片長度":"00:08:53","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。【第四案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[15,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":533,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:52:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:43:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":484,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時43分）謝謝主席。我們請鍾副主委、林副署長，還有環境部的蘇組長。"],["主席：請以上幾位。"],["高金委員素梅：在這裡先感謝在場的所有委員支持原住民族的公平正義、土地的公平正義、禁伐補償修法的部分。另外，在審原住民保留地禁伐補償條例之前，我也想先緬懷一下3月份蒙主恩寵的簡東明委員。為什麼要緬懷他呢？事實上，我在立法院22年來，不管是經過國民黨團也好，不管是民進黨也好，歷任我都經歷過，所以在場的委員們其實都不需要討論有沒有行政院版，因為我在這裡很公平地說，原住民的禁伐補償從來就沒有行政院院版，都是由原住民的委員在這裡奮鬥努力及要求。所以我特別懷念在101年的時候，我還有鄭天財委員、簡東明委員不斷地協商，經過6次的黨團協商，我先講沒有行政院版本，而是原住民的版本，最後是在民進黨田秋堇委員的支持之下，民進黨團最後簽字讓它三讀通過。","108年因為我的總質詢要求，有很多原住民族被國家限制的範圍並沒有放在裡頭，所以要求行政院長蘇貞昌能主動提出行政院版本，因此108年是在我的總質詢以後，行政院蘇院長也同意，才修正第五條。第五條就是原住民保留地符合下列條件之一者，由主管機關劃定為禁伐區域並公告之。條件是什麼呢？第一個，依照法規定的林業用地或適用林業用地的管制；第二個是依法劃設為原住民保護區或水源特定區；第三個是依法劃設在國家公園的區域；第四個，其他經主管機關認定有實施禁伐之必要。這個第五條修正之後，我們原住民族人到現在才有7.2萬公頃，將近四萬多的族人領到所謂土地公平正義的補償金，所以大家在這邊不要吵來吵去了。","我們也看一下，今年我最後對行政院長，也就是陳建仁院長經過我的總質詢，行政院長的回應是什麼？請大家聽好，尤其原民會。行政院的意思是說修法通過以後，它配合處理，這個配合處理不僅僅是法規的配合處理，當然也包括預算的處理，我想這是它的態度，政府的政策應該是一貫的，而不是按照現在有些立法委員或是原民會你們所說的。我在這裡要特別譴責原民會，我雖然同意主委今天請假，但是在禁伐補償這種涉及原住民族土地正義的法案上，我們再回想一下，當初立法的時候，曾任民進黨事務部的夷將主任，他還不是主委的時候，他就公開在所有的媒體上說禁伐補償是錢坑法案，最後他要轉身離開了，我們這位原運的前輩居然在報告上寫，這涉及國家整體預算還有政策規劃，建議待新內閣審慎評估，並且通盤考量再施行。我非常的遺憾，我也替夷將主委感到難過，原來你在原運這條路上，你的歷史定義跟原住民族人相差這麼遙遠，所以你的歷史定義就是在離開的時候也轉身得非常不漂亮。","我們可以看一下，大家一直在講預算，禁伐補償目前是7.2公頃，補償金才23億，如果按照我的提案增加2萬塊，才增加14億左右而已，這14億真的會影響到我們國家的經濟衰退及整體預算嗎？會影響到國家的政策嗎？我們再來看一下數發部，一年預算149億啊！它對國家、對我們這塊土地有任何的貢獻嗎？而原住民的私人土地是被憲法保障的，我們要配合政府這麼多的法規限制，我不能夠耕種，我們沒有過分要求，僅僅只要求按照林務局一樣6萬塊，按照平地休耕一樣5萬塊，我們錯在哪裡？原民會居然用書面在這邊留下歷史的定位，我感到非常不可思議啊！","我們再來看一下，104年修法到現在已經快要十年了，物價不斷地飆升，再講一次，休耕補助已經到達5萬塊了！農業部的報告也提到人工林和竹林有撫育的是6萬塊，沒有撫育的是3萬塊，我當然同意我們農業部的立場，在這裡要跟大家報告一下，禁伐補償必須要森林覆蓋率七成，為什麼當初會說七成？因為如果森林不疏伐、竹林不疏伐，它也是會破壞這個土地的，所以在我們訂定禁伐補償的時候，我們跟當時的農委會林務局討論，也跟非常多專家學者討論，為什麼要覆蓋率70%？因為不管是林地造林也好，不管是竹林也好，它是需要疏伐的啊！所以今天林業署才會講，如果有疏伐的話，同意它提高為六萬塊，如果沒有撫育是3萬塊，就是要鼓勵大家去撫育、疏伐，不是這樣嗎？請問副主委、請問林業署的副署長，你們來簡單回應一下是或不是。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，謝謝委員。"],["高金委員素梅：對吧！來，副署長。"],["林副署長澔貞：是，我們的想法是這樣。"],["高金委員素梅：我講的都沒有錯嘛？我以上講到現在都沒有錯嘛！我在最後的時間要補充一下，我們看到成林獎勵金和禁伐補償的精神其實是一樣的，所以今天本席才會修法，更何況今天修法，如果立法院各黨團，民進黨黨團、民眾黨黨團、國民黨黨團的委員們沒有意見的話，我們就可以三讀通過，但如果大家有意見的話，我們就必須等到一個月後在立法院表決。一個月之後是520，也是賴清德總統就任的時候，到底我們的總統、我們中華民國的總統、民進黨團在立法院的立法委員能不能支持？就要看大家對土地正義這件事情的看法。身為召委的我待會要來審這幾條，我希望在場的委員們能聽進去我今天的一席話，能符合中華民國憲法保障私人土地這樣的一個條文，也保障原住民土地的公平正義。","我再一次強調，我們這次原住民的禁伐補償是私人土地，不是所有的保留地，而私人土地我當時計算過，大概才8萬公頃，現在被申請的只有7.2萬公頃，所以它到底會造成我們國家多大的財政困難？請大家三思，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝高金委員的質詢，謝謝列席的所有官員。","接下來有請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃捷","麥玉珍","張宏陸","許宇甄","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","王美惠","賴瑞隆","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","張智倫","張嘉郡","黃仁","謝衣鳯","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二、\n審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正\n草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例\n第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.6722187500000001,"end":3.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.72596875,"end":13.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.46346875,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.505343750000002,"end":25.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.00596875,"end":25.410968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.410968750000002,"end":25.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.96784375,"end":45.289718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.509093750000005,"end":126.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.27284375,"end":172.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.67471875,"end":177.40409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.68659375000001,"end":181.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.84221875,"end":184.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.01471875000001,"end":189.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.49909375000001,"end":192.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.33846875,"end":193.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.57034375,"end":226.59471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.11784375000002,"end":244.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.17409375000003,"end":246.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.81096875000003,"end":250.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.02971875000003,"end":254.84346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.96159375000002,"end":265.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.04846875000004,"end":273.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.67596875000004,"end":276.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.47721875,"end":278.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.19409375000004,"end":290.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.12909375000004,"end":295.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.27596875,"end":297.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.39784375,"end":322.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.81159375000004,"end":330.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.08909375,"end":332.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.53159375,"end":334.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.53971875,"end":338.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.99909375000004,"end":340.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.10846875000004,"end":415.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.99534375,"end":418.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.66596875000005,"end":420.28596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.97784375000003,"end":441.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.19284375,"end":422.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.86909375000005,"end":443.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.11346875000004,"end":457.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.76096875,"end":461.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.49471875,"end":463.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.85721875,"end":467.92409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.21096875,"end":518.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.5322187500001,"end":524.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.0290937500001,"end":527.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.4753437500001,"end":533.97284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.692,"end":2.481,"text":"接下來有請高金委員質詢"},{"start":8.091,"end":36.043,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請中副組委林副署長,然後環境部的蘇組長。好,請上主委。在這裡先向在場的所有委員支持原住民族的公平正義,土地的公平正義這個禁法補償的這個修法的部分。然後另外呢,在審這個原住民保留地禁法補償條例之前,我也想先緬懷一下3月份盟主恩寵的簡東明委員。"},{"start":37.244,"end":41.966,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第6條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":59.813,"end":81.443,"text":"都是由原住民的委員在這裡奮鬥、努力、然後要求所以我特別懷念的是簡東明委員101年的時候我還有鄭天財委員還有簡東明委員我們不斷的協商經過了六次的黨團協商我今天講沒有行政院版本是原住民的版本"},{"start":81.983,"end":102.886,"text":"最后是在民进党委员田秋琴委员的支持之下民进党团最后签字让他三讀通过。然后108年也因为我的总质询要求有很多原住民族的范围里面被国家限制的并没有放在里头所以要求苏贞昌委"},{"start":104.488,"end":125.685,"text":"行政院長能夠主動來提出行政院版本,因此108年也是我的總質詢,以後行政院長蘇院長也同意,所以因此有了修正第五條,這個第五條就是原住民保留地符合下列條件之一者有主管機關劃定為禁伐區域並且公告"},{"start":126.405,"end":153.091,"text":"是依法規定的林業用地或適用林業用地的管制。二、依法劃設為原住民保護區或水源特定區。三、依法劃設在國家公園的區域。四、其他經過主管機關熱定有實施禁法的必要。因此有了這個第五條的修正之後,我們原住民族的族人才會到現在有7.2"},{"start":154.311,"end":180.492,"text":"2萬公頃的族人,將近4萬多人的族人領到了這個所謂的土地公平正義。」所以大家在這邊不要吵來吵去了然後我們也看一下在今年我也最後對行政院長也就是陳建仁院長也經過我的總質詢行政院長的回應是什麼請大家聽好尤其原民會行政院的意思是說他會"},{"start":181.914,"end":194.36,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":203.644,"end":226.273,"text":"我雖然同意主委今天的請假,但是在禁法補償這種涉及到原住民族土地正義的法案上面我們再回想一下,當初立法的時候,我們的民進黨的事務部移將主任他還不是主委的時候,他就公開在所有的媒體上說禁法補償這個案是乾坑法案。"},{"start":227.193,"end":235.057,"text":"立法院第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":245.239,"end":254.262,"text":"地禁補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":266.089,"end":276.825,"text":"我們可以看一下,大家一直在講預算,禁法補償目前7.2公頃補償金才23億,如果我們按照我的提案,增加2萬塊,"},{"start":279.249,"end":296.178,"text":"增加14億左右而已耶!這14億真的會影響到我們國家的經濟的衰退?國家的經濟的整個預算嗎?然後會影響到國家的政策嗎?我們再來看一下速發部一年預算149億啊!"},{"start":298.479,"end":317.878,"text":"他對國家、對我們這塊土地上有任何的貢獻嗎?而原住民的私人土地這是憲法被保障的,我們政府要配合政府這麼多的法規限制,我不能夠尊公眾。我們僅僅的要求,沒有過分的要求,按照林務局一樣6萬塊,按照平地休耕一樣5萬塊,我們錯在哪裡?"},{"start":323.874,"end":330.902,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":333.581,"end":344.083,"text":"禁法補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。七、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":363.667,"end":366.449,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第6條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":378.937,"end":381.698,"text":"農業部、林務局、我們的討論院跟非常多的專家學者討論為什麼要覆蓋率70%?就是因為不管是林地造林也好,不管是竹林也好,它是需要抒罰的啊。"},{"start":394.725,"end":397.766,"text":"所以今天林務局才會講,如果有抒罰的話,同意他提高6萬塊,如果沒有賦予的是3萬塊,就是要鼓勵大家去賦予抒罰嘛,不是這樣嗎?請問我們林務部的副署長,你們來回應一下,簡單回應一下,是不是?"},{"start":417.059,"end":428.027,"text":"及第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":441.917,"end":457.249,"text":"各黨團、民進黨黨團、民政黨黨團、國民黨團的委員們沒有意見的話,我們就可以申讀通過。那如果大家有意見的話,我們就必須等到一個月後,我們在立法院來表決。」"},{"start":458.806,"end":479.955,"text":"一個月之後是520,也是賴清德總統就任的時候,到底我們的總統,我們中華民國的總統,我們的民進黨團在立法院的立法委員能不能支持,就要看大家對土地這件事情的看法。」"},{"start":480.575,"end":506.786,"text":"所以身為召委的我,待會會來審這幾條我希望這場的委員們能夠聽進去我今天的議席話也能夠符合中華民國憲法保障私人土地的這樣子的一個條文也保障原住民的土地的公平正義我再一次強調,我們這一次原住民的禁法補償是私人土地"},{"start":507.486,"end":527.042,"text":"不是所有的保留地,而私人土地我當時計算過大概才8萬公頃,現在被申請的只有7.2萬公頃,所以它到底會造成我們國家到底多大的所謂的財政的困難?請大家三思。謝謝。謝謝我們高金委員的質詢。"}]}},{"id":"151260","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151260","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627d8476443e6093f00f65493343f37da33c5dab72e655c1c94b19c3c3926b89c555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"10:58:09 - 11:06:56","影片長度":"00:08:47","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員黃健豪等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條及第二百八十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（七）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（九）、（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":527,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:06:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:58:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":770,"blocks":[["傅委員崐萁：（10時58分）主席、各位同仁，請司法院副秘書長。"],["主席：請副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好。"],["傅委員崐萁：今天秘書長請假，是嗎？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，是，秘書長請假。"],["傅委員崐萁：本席在這裡希望，以後這種社會矚目而且非常重大的法律案在討論的時候秘書長能夠出席，好不好？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是。"],["傅委員崐萁：副秘書長，我們今天對於兒少虐兒案的集體討論還有這些修法相關的討論，我想最重要的，只要事情發生，法務部的檢察署勢必會起訴；但是起訴以後，法院在法官的自由心證裡面到底把虐兒案當作什麼樣的情況來看待？本席現在必須要特別強調，一個孩子的成長只有一次，當時他所受到的環境是如此的暴力相向，未來他的個性在成長以後認為這就是理所當然！每一個受虐的兒童，尤其在就讀國小以下，因為國小是義務教育，但這個0到6歲的孩子無處申冤，也沒有人知道他因為家庭暴力遭受這樣一個傷害，甚至受虐至死，到這麼嚴重的情況，為什麼我們的法院往往不把這樣的事情當作一回事？可不可以請副秘書長說明一下？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，像剛才次長講的，具體的案情我們不是都非常的瞭解，我相信在座的可能對具體案情並不清楚，但是檢察官起訴的時候當然會求刑，法官一定會針對個別的情形去做一個判斷，當然法官的審判核心我們雖然不能置喙，但是假設判得真的不如期待，那麼剛才次長也有講，檢察官一定會上訴，所以今天判得當不當也不是哪一個法官說了算，因為會有個上訴機制，如果檢察官的說理夠強、舉證夠強，上級審針對這些情形會做一個判斷。"],["傅委員崐萁：副秘書長，今天你們跟法務部開戰了，是不是？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟柯委員報告，我們不敢跟法務部開戰，但是因為具體的案情……"],["傅委員崐萁：我不是柯委員，我是傅委員，你不要緊張。本席要再次強調，今天最後衡量的那把尺還是在法官手上，所以本席不是來苛責司法院，而是司法院確確實實不符人民的期待，所以我們要用什麼樣的方法讓司法院法官的尺度能夠更接近社會上大家共同的想法，我們不希望再有恐龍法官，我們要趨近於現實社會當中民間的氛圍。本席在這裡跟你商量一下，我們的社會安全網真的破了，而且破得非常、非常嚴重，今天如果司法有嚇阻力，不會有這麼多案件不斷的發生、不斷的快速的成長。我們不要說剴剴案啦，剴剴案讓所有有良知的人都覺得無比的痛苦，但在剴剴案以外，我們看整體的數字，家庭暴力在2016年只有11萬7,000件，到了2023年，已經有16萬8,000件，成長了百分之四、五十，表示我們的法律真的有問題。再看我們的兒童跟青少年遭到性剝削這麼嚴重的事情，2017年才1,060件，到了去年2023年上半年就增加到一千五百多件，不要說再加上下半年，這個成長率是300%，為什麼法律沒有辦法來嚇阻這些犯罪者，以致他們還認為可以逃避法律的制裁，用這麼粗暴、殘忍的方式來對待這些孩童？是我們的法院生病了，還是我們的法律真的不彰？","我們再看直接對幼童性侵案，2016年只有78人，到去年2023年已經374人，請問這又是幾倍了？不要歸責法務部，現在的檢察官只要看到這種案件，不敢不起訴，也不敢吃案，可以吃別種案，這種案他不敢吃，政治案件經常看到吃案，但是這種性侵幼童的案，他們絕對不敢吃案，但是到了法院，法院的天平到底在哪裡？你看這種成長率，請問一下司法院沒有失職嗎？從78人短短幾年成長到374人，沒有爆發的還有多少件還不曉得，副秘書長有什麼想法？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然案件的話是整個社會教育、生活環境造成的，但是檢察官偵查後，如果起訴到法院，剛才次長也有講，也幾乎都是有罪的，那接下來就是量刑。當然剛剛跟委員報告很具體的案情，但是我們司法院現在確實不是只有針對這些兒少性侵犯案件，各種案件的量刑基準，我們也正在研究。"],["傅委員崐萁：副秘書長，本席希望你把今天委員會的發言帶回去司法院，跟所有的法官要有一個基本的共識，一個孩子的成長只有一次，他被這樣虐待，小小的生命甚至變成折翼的天使，我們何其痛苦看到社會發生這樣的情況。108年才修完法，加重刑責，但是完全沒有用，案件不斷持續的增加，剛剛副秘書長講到一句話是蠻對的，我們的社會生病了，因為我們的教育出了問題，今天為什麼教育做成這個樣子？但是不要忘記了，法律跟司法院是我們最後一道防線，去彌補教育的失敗。所以，本席在這裡再一次對副秘書長說，我們不能再看到這樣的案件發生，希望透過這次的修法能夠讓社會這樣的暴力事件降下來，凌虐致死本來就是殺人案，今天秘書長沒有來，但是我們更期待副秘書長回去以後跟院長、副院長溝通，司法院是不是在這一方面真正負起該負的責任，該擔的要擔，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：現在先處理臨時提案，總共2案，請一併宣讀，宣讀後，再逐條進行處理。請宣讀。","臨時提案：","一、","有鑑於去年底發生新北少年割喉案，案件場景發生在校園，且屬有期徒刑5年以上的少年司法重大矚目案件，則在整個司法調查、審判程序中，必然會有需要少年擔任證人的時刻。","而同屬12歲到18歲應保護的少年，若成為案件的目擊證人，在程序參與即亦有應保護之必要。以及如家暴案件，實務上，亦有請未滿12歲兒童擔任證人之情形。","惟綜觀《少年事件處理法》僅於第36-1條第4項，針對「少年及其法定代理人或現在保護少年之人」，以及《少年保護事件審理細則》第31條，針對「被害人之法定代理人、配偶、直系或三親等內旁系血親、家長、家屬、醫師、心理師、輔導人員、社工人員或其信賴之人」，明文保護其隱私，而有採取隔離措施。但均未就兒少擔任證人之保護措施法制化。","況且，《少年事件處理法》第1-1條第2項雖有規範「本法未規定者，於與少年保護事件、少年刑事案件性質不相違反之範圍內，準用其他法律」。則無論《刑事訴訟法》或《證人保護法》，甚或《少年事件處理法施行細則》，對於兒少參與程序的保護措施，均付之闕如。","基此，爰建請作成決議，要求司法院研擬，是否比照《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》第11條，關於案件證人等得準用證人保護法之部分規範，包括經到場作證有受保護必要之立法意旨，將相關兒少參與司法程序加以明文化，包括落實於審理細則上之可行性，並於一個月內提供報告。","提案人：吳宗憲　　翁曉玲　　傅崐萁","二、","依據衛福部統計（https：//dep.mohw.gov.tw/DOPS/lp-1303-105-xCat-cat04.html），未滿18歲之兒少受虐總人數，從110年至112年，分別是1萬1523人、1萬1950人、1萬2646人，逐年遞增，顯示刑法第286條自108年5月，公布加重刑責施行後，受虐人數不減反增。","依據上開統計數據，3年內，受虐兒少總人數成長9.7%，在當今少子化的時代下，益徵兒少保護漏洞的嚴重性，也顯示108年加重刑責後，仍無法達到防制兒童虐待犯罪的目的，執行成效不彰，徒法已不足以自行。","基此，爰建請作成決議，要求法務部於二個月內，檢討預防作為，並提出報告，內容應含有：","1.近3年，刑法第286條之統計數據，包括受理件數、案件來源、被害人年齡分布、起訴率、定罪率。","2.實務上，刑法第286條第1項適用率偏低之原因，包括分析條文構成要件「足以妨害」身心健全或發育之適用爭議，以及醫療、社政單位是否熟稔該條適用之情狀。","3.各地檢婦幼保護執行小組針對預防兒少受虐之具體改進機制，包括醫療、社政通報端必須了解該條屬公訴罪，以及如何降低高風險族群之「再犯」機率。","提案人：吳宗憲　　翁曉玲　　傅崐萁"],["主席：以上兩案是本席所提案，我這邊沒有補充，請問機關就這個部分有沒有需要說明或有意見要表達的？","請次長。"],["蔡次長碧仲：謝謝主席，我們對於主席的臨時提案只有一個要求，就是要求法務部一個月內可不可以放寬到兩個月來檢討預防作為？再者，有關提出報告的內容，第一點就是「包括受理件數、通報來源」，「通報來源」可不可以修正成為「案件來源」？"],["吳委員思瑤：那是第2案"],["蔡次長碧仲：對，第2案。"],["莊委員瑞雄：先講第1案。"],["蔡次長碧仲：抱歉！"],["主席：我們現在處理第1案。"],["蔡次長碧仲：好，那我待會再說明。"],["主席：請問第1案的部分在座機關有沒有意見要補充？","請副秘書長。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：委員好，關於第1案是有關少年在擔任證人的時候，在我們相關的訴訟程序裡面有沒有相關的保護規定，當然少年事件處理法是有準用刑事訴訟法裡面的這些證人保護規定，但是目前實務上確實法官在審的時候如果碰到是小孩子或者……是會有一些實際上面的保護機制，委員們認為應該在法制上面讓它更完整，這一點我們司法院是不反對，但是因為這個涉及到相關法規的盤整，這個提案裡面一個月的時間，我們可能會稍微趕一點，如果能夠再多給我們一些時間的話會比較完整。是不是再多給一個月的時間？我們把相關的一些制度盤整得更清楚一點。"],["主席：這樣子啦！第一個，有關未成年人證人的部分，我要求這麼做，是因為我希望法制化，不要說每個法官作法不一樣，每個法庭的保護就不一樣。再來，一個月的時間，因為我覺得快要520了，我怕說會有一些人事上面的變……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這個制度應該……"],["主席：而且我們會期也要結束了，到時候送過來會不會……"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我相信法制的完整更重要，因為這個應該是大家也沒有太大的爭議，跟政治上面的關係不大，法制是可長可久的，我們把這些相關的制度規範，不要說定出來的有些漏洞就不太好。"],["主席：這個在處理上面有這麼困難？你們之前完全沒有因應過嗎？這個問題在很多研討會都拿出來討論過，我自己參加的研討會也有討論過這個議題。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：只是因為涉及到相關法制規範，我們必須要再做一些盤點。"],["主席：那司法院長期以來都沒有準備這件事啊？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：這個問題當然我們會積極來思考。"],["莊委員瑞雄：多一個月啦！主席，多一個月給他，讓他完備，好不好？"],["主席：這樣喔？我在想啦！大家有沒有什麼想法？"],["黃委員國昌：沒關係，多給他一個月好了。"],["主席：大家沒有意見嘛？那就莊委員的建議……"],["莊委員瑞雄：合理啦！"],["主席：這樣啦！那就二個月。我個人是完全認同法制要周延，但因為這個是長期的問題，我就說我參加過很多研討會，都一直在談論未成年人證人的問題，我也比較訝異說司法院都沒有就這個研究過，我比較訝異這件事。好啦！那就……"],["莊委員瑞雄：主席，沒關係，內容我是覺得都還好，只是就給他更多的時間。"],["主席：好，謝謝莊委員的建議，這個我們就二個月。本案就依照剛剛的討論，依修正後的文字通過，改為二個月。"],["傅委員崐萁：要從今天起算二個月，兩個月內。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：是，好。"],["主席：OK。"],["傅委員崐萁：應該趕得上，這個會期他們跑不掉的……"],["主席：好，那就這樣，起算日就是今天起算，麻煩司法院這邊能夠照做。好，謝謝。","現在討論第2案，請問有無機關要做說明？好，蔡次長。"],["蔡次長碧仲：謝謝主席。"],["莊委員瑞雄：第2案還好啊！"],["蔡次長碧仲：同樣地就是請主席能夠寬容到二個月內來檢討預防作為，並提出報告。那麼它的內容應該含有，第一點，所謂包括受理件數、通報來源，本部建議主席能夠改成「案件來源」；被害人年齡分布，本部沒有這個數據，所以我們希望委員能夠諒查。第二點，有關「以及醫療、社政單位是否熟稔該條適用之情狀」，這無關本部的業務，建請委員這部分能夠刪除。第三點，同樣地「包括醫療、社政通報端必須了解該條屬公訴罪」，這個部分我們也認為不屬本部的業務，建請刪除。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：黃國昌委員。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個，基本上法務部希望多一個月，這樣的建議我覺得沒有關係，理由是反正他們到時候，要到新的部長來報告，我覺得從責任政治的觀點並不是壞事。但我剛剛比較驚訝的事情是，聽到次長說被害人年齡分布的這件事情法務部沒有data，這是不可能的。在每一個起訴書當中，被害人的年紀一定要斟酌，如果今天你講的是你們的統計處一開始的時候沒有統計這個數字，你的說法一定是正確的，但你們不可能沒有這個data。今天召委之所以要求你們去把這個數字撈出來，就是要讓社會大眾理解被害人年齡的分布啊！檢察官在起訴的時候，對於被害人的年齡沒有掌握，特別是在兒少案件，我只能說殊難想像，絕對不可能！請你們認真一點，不要自己本來的統計沒有做，就認為不是重要的數據。起訴書裡面相關的卷證一定有，把數字撈出來，這才是負責任的作法。"],["蔡次長碧仲：我們同意黃委員，因為之前我有要求過，在主持會議的時候，要統計單位就這一項數據要列出來，因為在很多的政策上都必須參酌這項數據，所以這個我們完全同意。因為我們是逐案把被害人的年齡，辛苦一點……統計確實是沒有，剛剛的回答是因為我們這一項沒有統計，那委員講的是確實，我們很難卸責，所以這個我們會後會把它撈出來。"],["主席：次長，這邊我補充一個東西，基本上剛剛次長的要求說要多延長一個月，我沒有意見、OK，但是也一樣，被害人年齡分布的這個東西，因為卷內的年紀對照表，它只是封在卷裡面，這個我們都很清楚嘛！"],["蔡次長碧仲：對。"],["主席：我們既然改為二個月，就麻煩能夠做一個統計。"],["蔡次長碧仲：是。"],["主席：因為我知道起訴書是一定沒有，但是卷裡面一定都看得到。"],["蔡次長碧仲：沒錯。"],["主席：這個再麻煩一下。"],["蔡次長碧仲：好。"],["主席：剛剛次長所提到的第二點跟第三點，就是醫療、社政單位是否熟悉這個條文的適用，以及是否屬於非告訴乃論之罪，為什麼會把這個放在二、三點？我是提案人，主要是因為這個小組的成員之一就是法務部啊！"],["蔡次長碧仲：對。"],["主席：法務部是成員之一，這些醫療跟社政單位也是裡面的成員。既然法務部是成員之一，所以不是說這跟法務部的業務無關喔？"],["蔡次長碧仲：是。"],["主席：這可能要麻煩次長。"],["蔡次長碧仲：好。"],["主席：因為我提這個不會亂提啦！"],["蔡次長碧仲：沒問題。"],["主席：再麻煩次長。"],["蔡次長碧仲：謝謝主席，那個我們一併，因為我們跟衛福部確實有一個平臺，所以這個大家都不能說誰無關，我是尊重主席的裁示，會後我們會就這個努力。"],["主席：好，謝謝。這個是不是一樣，兩個月的起算日是由今天起算？"],["蔡次長碧仲：是。"],["主席：好。吳委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：我基本上是同意今天這個提案，那我提醒一下，剛剛針對要提出的統計數字，那個數據裡頭，被害人的年齡分布是加進來了，就是第一次、因為過去沒有這個data，所以要去撈，大家辛苦一點。但以後是不是請次長就把這樣一個年齡分布要納入你們未來的統計data？"],["蔡次長碧仲：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：這個一定要做。"],["蔡次長碧仲：好。"],["吳委員思瑤：不要只是因應今天的一個臨時提案。"],["蔡次長碧仲：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：然後更建設性地就把它納入未來的data裡頭。"],["蔡次長碧仲：對。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，謝謝。"],["蔡次長碧仲：謝謝，這個本來就是本部要精進的，我們在之前的會議就有要求，所以未來我們這一塊一定把它補足，謝謝委員的指教。"],["主席：那我們修正的部分就是，第一個，我們要求法務部原本是「一個月內」，現在改為「二個月內」，是以今天起算。第二個，順應剛剛次長的要求，我們把「通報來源」改為「案件來源」，其餘的文字就沒有改變。請問各位有沒有其他意見要補充？好，沒有的話，我們就依據討論後的修正文字通過，謝謝各位。"],["蔡次長碧仲：謝謝主席、謝謝委員。"],["主席：接著請黃國昌委員進行詢答。稍後在本席詢答完畢之後，休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-13","speakers":["吳宗憲","傅崐萁","廖偉翔","王育敏","徐欣瑩","陳超明","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","黃國昌","翁曉玲","黃健豪"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員徐巧芯等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員廖偉翔等19人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等20\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八\n十六條及第二百八十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員柯志恩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)\n委員陳超明等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.16159375,"end":3.2878437500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.37221875,"end":6.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.349718750000001,"end":14.880968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.965343750000002,"end":15.083468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.134093750000002,"end":15.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.20159375,"end":15.235343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.235343750000002,"end":15.285968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.285968750000002,"end":18.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.74534375,"end":22.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.74471875,"end":27.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.31784375,"end":32.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.410343750000003,"end":29.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.49471875,"end":29.528468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.528468750000002,"end":29.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.21159375,"end":33.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.37596875,"end":34.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.94534375,"end":35.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.46409375,"end":37.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.13909375,"end":37.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.11784375,"end":45.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.54284375,"end":46.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.711593750000006,"end":46.774718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.71534375,"end":50.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.02721875,"end":51.415343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.32659375,"end":53.963468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.21659375,"end":54.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.773468750000006,"end":55.836593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.22471875,"end":56.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.899718750000005,"end":58.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.42659375,"end":61.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.72596875000001,"end":63.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.51034375,"end":65.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.55659375,"end":66.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.12159375,"end":69.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.33221875000001,"end":71.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.16284375000001,"end":76.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.45346875,"end":79.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.43596875,"end":83.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.77721875,"end":87.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.25346875000001,"end":89.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.07596875,"end":92.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.73784375000001,"end":95.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.99909375,"end":96.72471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.28159375,"end":98.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.15471875,"end":100.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.50034375000001,"end":103.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.64346875000001,"end":105.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.63034375000001,"end":108.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.39784375,"end":112.06409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.14409375000001,"end":115.84409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.40096875,"end":118.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.05034375000001,"end":119.23596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.53971875,"end":121.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.66159375000001,"end":125.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.03221875000001,"end":128.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.29346875000002,"end":131.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.99346875,"end":139.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.68409375000002,"end":143.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.99159375000002,"end":144.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.52721875,"end":176.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.32846875,"end":177.31971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.31971875000002,"end":177.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.79221875000002,"end":179.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.27284375000002,"end":184.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.47471875000002,"end":184.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.49159375000002,"end":186.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.64346875,"end":186.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.09471875,"end":186.11159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.49971875,"end":187.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.30971875,"end":188.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.34346875,"end":187.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.47846875000002,"end":187.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.67221875,"end":191.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.99659375000002,"end":193.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.11034375,"end":196.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.01284375,"end":199.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.28659375,"end":203.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.47596875000002,"end":207.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.53846875000002,"end":210.59721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.98096875000002,"end":213.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.95534375000003,"end":216.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.82409375,"end":217.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.84909375,"end":220.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.49846875,"end":223.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.50221875000003,"end":225.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.52721875,"end":228.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.67034375,"end":229.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.63221875000002,"end":230.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.48846875,"end":233.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.69471875000002,"end":236.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.16284375,"end":236.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.08659375000002,"end":239.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.41534375,"end":242.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.47784375,"end":247.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.80659375000002,"end":249.35909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.37159375000002,"end":250.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.33346875,"end":252.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.93659375000001,"end":254.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.53534375,"end":257.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.30284375,"end":259.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.22659375,"end":261.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.09534375000004,"end":264.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.10346875,"end":266.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.06096875000003,"end":268.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.22096875,"end":272.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.10221875,"end":278.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.85659375,"end":279.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.64971875000003,"end":281.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.50159375000004,"end":282.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.58159375,"end":287.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.03659375,"end":290.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.61846875000003,"end":291.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.40721875,"end":293.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.75284375,"end":298.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.76909375,"end":300.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.92909375,"end":302.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.10159375,"end":305.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.17284375,"end":307.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.75909375000003,"end":309.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.02471875000003,"end":311.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.79659375,"end":313.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.38284375,"end":314.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.42471875,"end":316.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.11221875,"end":319.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.70659375,"end":322.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.37284375,"end":324.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.87471875,"end":325.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.47346875,"end":328.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.75596875,"end":329.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.32534375,"end":330.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.42221875,"end":332.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.72159375,"end":334.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.72534375000004,"end":336.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.54784375,"end":338.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.85971875,"end":342.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.55534375,"end":344.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.60096875000005,"end":350.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.02221875000004,"end":354.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.47346875,"end":356.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.97096875,"end":357.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.84409375,"end":361.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.69596875,"end":364.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.71221875000003,"end":367.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.51784375,"end":369.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.61034375,"end":370.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.44971875000005,"end":373.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.87971875000005,"end":378.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.14471875000004,"end":381.05159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.67596875000004,"end":384.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.38846875,"end":387.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.59471875,"end":391.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.29471875,"end":392.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.18471875,"end":397.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.30221875,"end":402.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.44909375000003,"end":416.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.51034375,"end":415.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.23596875000004,"end":417.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.46346875,"end":419.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.72471875,"end":422.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.39096875,"end":424.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.68596875000003,"end":426.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.72784375000003,"end":429.53346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.88346875,"end":432.94221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.92096875000004,"end":435.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.11034375,"end":438.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.11846875000003,"end":440.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.83534375000005,"end":442.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.38784375,"end":443.87721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.09659375,"end":445.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.37471875000006,"end":447.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.11284375,"end":449.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.30659375000005,"end":450.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.16284375000004,"end":453.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.15409375,"end":455.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.49971875000006,"end":457.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.76534375000006,"end":459.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.63409375000003,"end":461.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.18659375000004,"end":463.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.79784375,"end":467.50221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.12659375000004,"end":469.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.78034375000004,"end":470.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.58596875,"end":472.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.13846875,"end":474.60659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.70346875,"end":477.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.56784375,"end":480.09096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.34409375,"end":481.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.47034375000004,"end":485.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.41471875,"end":491.05971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.97096875000005,"end":493.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.55284375,"end":495.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.71284375000005,"end":498.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.93596875000003,"end":500.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.91034375000004,"end":502.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.41221875,"end":503.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.82971875000004,"end":507.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.89659375,"end":516.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.8615937500001,"end":517.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.4353437500001,"end":519.9497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.62471875,"end":521.0803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.82284375,"end":522.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.0247187500001,"end":527.50971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.195,"end":6.743,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13屆第12會期"},{"start":12.409,"end":35.587,"text":"委員好,今天秘書長請假是嗎?是,跟委員報告,是,秘書長請假。本席在這希望以後這種社會矚目而且非常重大的法院在討論的時候,希望秘書長能夠出席,好不好?是,是,是,今天謝謝。副秘書長,我想我們今天"},{"start":38.389,"end":63.439,"text":"對兒少女兒案的討論和修法相關的討論。我想最重要的只要事情發生在法務部的檢察署勢必會起訴但是這起訴以後法院在法官的自由行政裡面"},{"start":64.574,"end":91.994,"text":"到底把虐而暗當作什麼樣的情況來看待?我現在必須要特別強調一個孩子的成長只有一次當時他所受到的環境是如此的暴力相向未來他的個性成長以後認為這就是理所當然"},{"start":93.769,"end":121.148,"text":"每一個受虐的兒童尤其在就讀國小以下因為國小是義務教育這個0到6歲的孩子他是無處深淵也沒有人知道他對家庭暴力遭受這樣的一個傷害還沒有人知道甚至啊受虐至死到這麼樣的一個嚴重的情況為什麼我們的法院"},{"start":122.697,"end":144.104,"text":"條文刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第十七條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案"},{"start":145.584,"end":154.627,"text":"條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":167.35,"end":190.523,"text":"如果說檢察官他的稅理夠強、舉證夠強,那上級審爭奪這些情形,他會做一個什麼?副局長,因為你們都法務部開戰了,跟柯委員拔我們不敢跟法務部開戰,但是因為具體的案情我不是柯委員,我是副委員,那個不要緊張,本期要再次強調"},{"start":193.052,"end":220.154,"text":"今天最後衡量的那把尺還是在法官手上所以本席不是來苛責司法院這是確確實實司法院不服人民的期待所以我們要用什麼樣的層面讓司法院的法官把尺度能夠更接近社會大家共同的想法"},{"start":221.564,"end":248.918,"text":"我們不希望再有恐龍法官我們要趨近於現世社會當中所有的民間的氛圍本席在這裡跟你商量一下我們的社會安全網真的破而且破得非常非常的嚴重今天如果司法有嚇阻力有這麼多案件不斷的發生不斷的快速的成長"},{"start":251.393,"end":278.518,"text":"條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八"},{"start":279.65,"end":298.884,"text":"三）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖�"},{"start":309.143,"end":335.891,"text":"還在認為他可以逃避法律的制裁來對這些孩童用這麼粗暴殘忍的方式來對待是我們的法院生病還是我們的法律真的是不髒我們再看直接對幼童我們講到就直接的性侵案2016年"},{"start":337.611,"end":364.576,"text":"只有78人到2023年去年離374人請問這又是幾倍啊不要規則在法院現在的檢察官只要看到這種案件他不敢不起訴也不敢吃案可以吃別種案這種案他不敢吃政治的案件會吃案經常看到吃案但是"},{"start":366.231,"end":387.41,"text":"這種性侵誘惑的案他們絕對不敢吃案但是到了法院法院的天平到底在哪裡你看這種成長率請問一下司法院沒有失職嗎從78人端端幾年成長到374人還有沒有爆發的還有多少件還不曉得"},{"start":388.892,"end":417.034,"text":"次長有什麼想法?副秘書長有什麼想法?跟委員報告,當然案件是整個社會教育環境,但是案件起訴到檢察官偵查,如果起訴到法院,剛才次長也有講,幾乎都是有罪的。那接下來就是說,良刑,當然剛才跟委員報告很具體的案情,但是我們現在司法案確實也都是在,不是只有針對這些兒少性的各種的案件的這些的良刑,我們也正在研究各方面的良刑的基準。"},{"start":418.533,"end":446.916,"text":"本期是希望你把今天委員會的發言帶回去司法院跟所有的法官要有一個基本的一個共識一個孩子的成長只有一次他被這樣的虐待甚至小小的生命變成責任的天使我們何其痛苦看到社會發生這樣的情況我們看看"},{"start":448.137,"end":474.166,"text":"一百零八年才修完法加重完全沒有用持續發生案件不斷的在增加剛剛副院長講到一句話是蠻對的我們的社會生病了因為我們的教育出了問題今天為什麼教育做成這個樣子但是不要忘記了法律跟司法院是我們最後一道防線"},{"start":475.768,"end":498.658,"text":"去彌補教育的失敗。」所以啊本席在這裡再一次啊對副秘書長我們不能再看到這樣的案情再發生希望透過這次的修法能夠讓社會這樣的暴力事件能夠降下來凌虐致死本來就是殺人案"},{"start":499.98,"end":520.771,"text":"本來就是殺人案所以在這裡希望今天秘書長沒有來但是我們更期待副院長回去溝通有跟院長、副院長溝通是不是我們司法院能夠這一方面真正有一個他們肩膀上的責任該擔的要擔好不好謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151259","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151259","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016276873452b6e428a80cf744a9f110b3b1fc5dab72e655c1c94e3ec96120a5fbaaf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:53:35 - 11:05:57","影片長度":"00:12:22","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":742,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:05:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:53:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":574,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時53分）謝謝主席。請金管會黃主委。"],["主席：有請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主委好。不好意思，剛剛喝水，有喝夠了嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：可以，謝謝。不好意思，耽誤您的時間，對不起。"],["李委員坤城：沒有，我比較不好意思，你也辛苦了。這個報告大概晚了兩個禮拜，因為上次要來報告的時遇到大地震，結果沒想到今天再來報告的時候也遇到人事的地震，主委也辛苦了。"],["黃主任委員天牧：有嗎？可是我們有增加內容，第7頁有更新內容，不是照兩個禮拜前的再給委員。"],["李委員坤城：請教一下主委，大家都很關心這件事情，我們常常在網路上看到很多融資公司或是先買後付的釣魚式廣告講，信用瑕疵可以貸，一般商品也可以貸，手機也可以貸，而且是低利貸款，也講到貸款條件不拘，隨來隨借、保證過件、超高額度，還有最新型的手機app貸款，按照手機的指示就可以申辦，甚至不知道實際上的利率是多少，讓你貸款的時候非常方便，但處處都是陷阱，所以也產生了很多弊端。第一個、聯徵的死角，第二個、超高的利率，違約金跟遲延循環利息一起來算，可貸成數也沒有限制，甚至以數倍計，然後萬物皆可貸，所以造成這些弊端。雖然4月初開始，不管是先買後付或是中古車，業者都有一些自律條款上路。請問一下，剛剛本席所問的那一些問題，按照這些租賃公司的自律條款有辦法來解決嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：您剛才垂詢的，有一些部分其實都已經納入了。我是不是可以請局長跟您比較完整的說明？"],["莊局長琇媛：針對剛剛委員所提到，尤其是弊端二、超高利率、違約金跟延遲利息併計的部分，租賃公會的自律規範已經說這兩個不能並行。再來，成數無限制、甚至以倍計，這個部分涉及到廣告不實會有誤導，所以在自律規範裡面也要求租賃公司對於行銷單位……因為有一些行銷廣告其實是代辦公司或者是業務合作的……"],["李委員坤城：這個廣告，誰來管？"],["莊局長琇媛：這就變成是由租賃公司對合作的對象去管。至於萬物皆可貸也還是涉及到行銷不實，所以這個部分也是透過自律規範，其實都有明定。"],["李委員坤城：這有罰則嗎？"],["莊局長琇媛：自律規範的罰則就是公會對會員如果違反自律規範，會有什麼樣的罰則，所以到底用什麼樣的處罰方式，還是要……"],["李委員坤城：看起來沒有處罰，我大概看了一下他們的自律規範，第一個、沒有處罰，第二個、有溯及既往嗎？還是從4月初他們自律規範訂了之後才開始？過去呢？過去也有超高利率，還有可貸成數無限制，過去的有辦法處理嗎？"],["莊局長琇媛：三大租賃公司跟我們說，對於過去的事情，他們還是會按照民法，哪怕原來如果沒有按照這樣的規定，他們現在對於以前曾經的……"],["李委員坤城：他們過去就是沒有按照民法，所以才有這麼多的一些……"],["莊局長琇媛：對，所以他們說有一些案子後續會按照民法的規定來做。"],["李委員坤城：NO！你這樣講，我覺得有講跟沒講一樣。你們要去審視，如果過去的規定都已經違反民法相關規定，怎麼可以一刀切？4月4號之後的就按照自律規範，4月3號之前的就還是按照舊的？他違法就違法！你們要請租賃公司審視過去的契約，如果有違反相關規定，這個契約就應該作廢、沒有效了吧？"],["莊局長琇媛：對，我剛剛所說的就是，租賃公司不會因為之前的契約已經生效，他們以後對於消費者的這個部分，會遵守最新的自律規範。"],["李委員坤城：我是說之前簽的約。"],["莊局長琇媛：他還是會按照最新的自律規範。"],["李委員坤城：意思是可以溯及既往就對了？"],["莊局長琇媛：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，你剛才提到的四個弊端，第一個、聯徵死角，你沒有回答我，現在聯徵還是死角嗎？租賃公司跟聯徵中心到底有沒有連線？"],["莊局長琇媛：現在租賃公司有一部分，如果當他需要消費者的信用報告，因為是消費者希望取得信用報告，所以當消費者同意之下，他取得信用報告的時候，他們會把對消費者的授信報到聯徵中心……"],["李委員坤城：所以是租賃公司主動跟要借貸的人要資料，他才去？"],["莊局長琇媛：對。"],["李委員坤城：所以這個就是沒有限制嘛？"],["莊局長琇媛：對。因為這個已經取得消費者的同意，所以他可以報資料。"],["李委員坤城：一般跟銀行借款都會去聯徵，看個人的借貸紀錄怎麼樣，才決定到底要不要借或借多少。為什麼租賃公司不要？融資公司不用？我的意思是說這個為什麼沒有強制性呢？"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，銀行因為風險控管非常的嚴格，所以……"],["李委員坤城：對，這就是問題所在嘛，我們對於租賃公司的控管風險沒有這麼嚴格啊！"],["莊局長琇媛：對，報告委員，針對租賃公司，其實我們在跟他談的過程中，他們有跟我們反映，因為他們相對於其他銀行來說，他的速度很快，可能當天就可以……"],["李委員坤城：沒有，不是！這個問題就在於說，通常比如是信用可能不是很好的人，他向銀行借不到錢了，才到租賃公司去借吧，所以如果再去聯徵的話，大概就過不了，應該是這個原因吧？但是我們是認為，當然對有些人來講他有這個需求，但是如果能夠跟聯徵中心配合的話，至少租賃公司在借貸的時候有一個比例嘛，就是大概可以借多少，不是沒有限制，甚至借更多給他，形成一種惡性的循環啊，所以我才覺得是不是應該在有人要來借貸的時候，每個租賃公司就必須要跟聯徵中心來做一個審視，就是到底來借貸的人的信用有沒有問題，不然這個就變成是空的了嘛，就變成我的信用不好，我在銀行借不到，我就可以去租賃公司借嘛！"],["莊局長琇媛：報告委員，其實我非常贊同您的想法，可是因為聯徵中心是一個會員制，他所有的會員其實都是以銀行為主，所以……"],["李委員坤城：這個就是你們要去處理的問題嘛，如果你覺得我的想法也不錯，也可以讓這個現象，就是這個山道猴子的現象一直惡性循環，你們就應該去做啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，我跟您報告，其實我們有處理，過去從前年開始，因為聯徵是會員制，只有銀行才能加入，有一種方式，現在就是像那種做線上P2P的公司，我們開第二資料庫，他用很快的方式由個人去申請……"],["李委員坤城：那租賃公司也可以啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：用轉介、轉交的方式，就是他以很快的方式取得你的credit report，然後交給這個公司，也是一種方式，不直接取得，但是由個人去取得。"],["李委員坤城：這個你們去設計嘛，我是希望聯徵在有關於信用紀錄的這個方面你們也要做處理啊，你不能跟我講那是會員制，他不是會員，銀行是會員才可以加入啊。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，我瞭解……"],["李委員坤城：我的想法就是說，你要去看那個人的借貸信用到底是怎麼樣，如果不好的話就不應該再一直借他啊！當然租賃公要賺錢，可是對那個人來講，他可能在沒有任何限制的情況之下就越借越多，然後越欠越多啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，委員，我想您垂詢的地方我們會努力跟聯徵中心那邊去瞭解……"],["李委員坤城：不是，這個你們要去處理，我覺得你們要去處理，好不好？有關信用聯徵的這個部分，可不可以去處理？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實也要看租賃公司自己本身的想法，我想我們會去研究……"],["李委員坤城：你們要看他的想法，那他一定說不用啊，維持現狀是最好了啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["李委員坤城：我們就是認為有問題今天才請你們來做報告啊，對不對？這個你們要想出一個對策出來，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我瞭解，跟委員報告，聯徵那邊傳統上對這一塊有他既定的一個，我們要去努力啦！"],["李委員坤城：你們要去突破，你們要去突破，這個是一個問題所在。","再請問一下，我們現在八大官股行庫對於融資公司的貸款有一千三百多億，再加上購買三家租賃公司的公司債二百多億，所以總共融資公司從八大行庫至少搬了快一千五百億左右，請問一下，融資公司跟公股銀行融資，然後再把這個錢再借貸出去，中間有沒有利差？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個當然應該要有啊，你借錢是成本，然後當然要轉貸出去……"],["李委員坤城：那就是借便宜的，跟公股銀行借錢比較便宜，我再把這個借來的錢用比較高的利息去借給人家，是這樣賺錢的嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：銀行法有相關利率上面的規定啦。"],["李委員坤城：沒有，我要請教的就是，如果租賃公司跟公股銀行借錢，我認為還是要有一個限制啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：有關公股的部分，我們尊重財政部的決定，但是整體金融機構的部分，我們會再強化，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：另外，有沒有催收的準則出來？"],["黃主任委員天牧：催收？目前好像……"],["李委員坤城：租賃公司的催收準則有出來嗎？因為現在很多租賃公司都把他的債權移轉，轉給黑道的也有啊，或是其他的什麼來催收的也有啊，催收的準則有沒有出來？"],["莊局長琇媛：有，報告委員，這次在自律規範裡面也有訂出來，他們不管是自己催收，因為有些是自己催收，有些是會委外，不管是委外或自行催收……"],["李委員坤城：我們對金融機構的催收有一個定型化的契約嘛，有沒有？"],["莊局長琇媛：應該是說我們對他們的管理，這邊的催收要符合一切法令的規定。"],["李委員坤城：當然要符合，我的意思是說，在這次自律規範裡面有沒有催收的準則出來啦，因為……"],["莊局長琇媛：有。"],["李委員坤城：有嗎？"],["莊局長琇媛：我們原則性的規定有在這個自律規範裡面。"],["李委員坤城：這個講了很多都是租賃公司的自律啦，我們希望的是他律，就是講了很久的融資公司法能夠出來，有個主管單位叫做金管會。","因為我時間也到了，你時間也到了，可能就下次再來講啦！謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員的質詢。因為李彥秀委員另有要公，我們等李彥秀委員質詢完再休息10分鐘。","請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-8","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","王世堅","顏寬恒","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","羅明才","林楚茵","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","吳春城","陳亭妃","王定宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就\n「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.18659375,"end":4.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.620968749999999,"end":6.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.22409375,"end":6.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.77659375,"end":8.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.286593750000002,"end":11.320343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.320343750000003,"end":12.062843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.117218750000003,"end":15.758468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.876593750000001,"end":16.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.85534375,"end":18.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.137843750000002,"end":19.454093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.75784375,"end":21.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.95159375,"end":36.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.52346875,"end":34.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.04221875,"end":44.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.704093750000006,"end":39.940343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.345343750000005,"end":41.205968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.17596875,"end":44.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.51346875,"end":46.369718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.40346875,"end":54.385343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.570968750000006,"end":60.595343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.98346875,"end":62.265968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.51909375,"end":77.06534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.16659375,"end":81.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.38534375,"end":90.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.17284375000001,"end":94.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.36221875000001,"end":99.47534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.47534375000001,"end":99.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.52596875,"end":99.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.59346875,"end":99.61034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.64409375000001,"end":101.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.95596875000001,"end":104.50409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.75721875,"end":105.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.87096875,"end":111.69284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.01346875,"end":119.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.26971875000001,"end":141.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.40534375000001,"end":148.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.55596875,"end":166.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.31721875000002,"end":166.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.57034375,"end":167.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.93721875,"end":185.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.52721875,"end":172.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.65784375,"end":173.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.97846875000002,"end":173.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.76159375,"end":186.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.78659375,"end":191.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.83221875,"end":192.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.45659375000002,"end":201.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.55284375000002,"end":197.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.53534375,"end":202.96971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.66159375,"end":215.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.86221875,"end":215.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.87909375,"end":220.33409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.60409375,"end":228.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.95721875,"end":233.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.96034375000002,"end":237.17534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.96846875000003,"end":240.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.90471875000003,"end":242.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.33471875,"end":251.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.65409375000002,"end":256.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.84784375,"end":260.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.22659375,"end":265.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.87971875,"end":277.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.68784375,"end":283.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.58159375,"end":288.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.26846875,"end":302.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.97096875,"end":305.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.26596875,"end":309.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.40471875000003,"end":310.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.05409375,"end":317.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.35659375,"end":322.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.59659375,"end":323.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.19971875000005,"end":337.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.20596875,"end":348.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.39846875,"end":353.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.76471875000004,"end":357.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.93284375,"end":360.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.90284375000005,"end":366.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.85159375,"end":371.80409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.07409375000003,"end":375.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.36471875,"end":377.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.26721875000004,"end":380.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.49034375,"end":386.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.06346875,"end":391.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.10471875,"end":403.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.39409375,"end":405.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.72721875,"end":412.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":413.40096875,"end":415.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.47221875,"end":419.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.76284375,"end":421.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.49659375000005,"end":426.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.29346875000005,"end":428.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":428.25096875,"end":429.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.61784375,"end":432.87471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.21221875000003,"end":435.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.10221875,"end":436.31721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.65471875000003,"end":457.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.50784375,"end":470.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.92784375,"end":470.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.94471875000005,"end":483.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.61784375,"end":489.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.20346875,"end":493.40534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.55721875,"end":512.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.24409375000005,"end":500.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.9128437500001,"end":520.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":520.84409375,"end":526.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.1384687500001,"end":528.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":527.79659375,"end":537.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":537.5503437500001,"end":539.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.96346875,"end":543.9797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.1397187499999,"end":552.7378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.7378437500001,"end":559.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.04159375,"end":553.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.6059687500001,"end":560.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.64784375,"end":568.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":566.99721875,"end":570.7265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.41471875,"end":569.1572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.06846875,"end":570.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.77721875,"end":570.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.82784375,"end":570.8953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.8953437499999,"end":570.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.23284375,"end":575.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.7722187500001,"end":575.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":576.12659375,"end":578.0672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.29096875,"end":585.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":584.44596875,"end":611.3953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":611.71596875,"end":613.4709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.79159375,"end":614.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":615.12471875,"end":617.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":618.06096875,"end":619.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.26721875,"end":627.1397187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.75159375,"end":636.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.0747187500001,"end":638.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.42471875,"end":643.9809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":643.9809687500001,"end":645.1453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":645.6515937500001,"end":654.9834687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":655.20284375,"end":658.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":658.8984687500001,"end":659.1684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":659.4384687500001,"end":667.8759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":667.4709687500001,"end":670.6772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.9765937500001,"end":674.3897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":673.6303437500001,"end":678.4734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":678.9965937500001,"end":687.1303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.48471875,"end":698.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":698.50409375,"end":702.3684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.00971875,"end":703.4822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":703.6340937500001,"end":711.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":711.53159375,"end":717.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":717.2690937500001,"end":717.6909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":717.4209687500002,"end":720.6609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":720.6609687499999,"end":726.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":727.27596875,"end":732.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":732.4734687499999,"end":738.8015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":738.43034375,"end":743.2734687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.846,"end":29.282,"text":"謝謝主席我們請這個金管會黃主委有請有請黃主委主委好不好意思剛喝水有喝過了嗎可以謝謝不好意思耽誤您時間沒有沒有不要不好意思也辛苦了啦那這個報告是大概晚了兩個禮拜因為上次要來報告的時候遇到大地震"},{"start":29.847,"end":29.987,"text":"法務委員"},{"start":45.274,"end":72.355,"text":"這個請教一下主委就是說這個大家都很關心這件事情那其實我們也常常在這個廣告上面這個網路的廣告上面也看到說有很多這個釣魚式的廣告關於這個融資公司的一些或是說這個先買後付的一些這些釣魚式的廣告他常常在講就是說你信用瑕疵也可以帶啦然後呢這個一般商品也可以帶啦手機也可以帶啦然後而且呢這個是低利貸款"},{"start":73.516,"end":98.907,"text":"然後也講到說這個貸款的這個條件呢條件不拘誰來誰借然後這個保證過借這個超高額度然後呢這個而且還有這個最新型的這個手機APP的貸款按照手機的這個指示呢就可以申辦那甚至也不知道說這個實際上利率是多少所以呢讓你貸款的時候是非常方便但是呢這個是處處的都是陷阱"},{"start":99.947,"end":122.664,"text":"所以也產生了很多弊端至少有第一個連針的死角第二個超高的利率違約金跟慈嚴的循環利息一起來算然後可貸的乘數也沒有限制甚至以數倍計然後萬物皆可貸所以造成這些弊端請問一下雖然說4月初開始"},{"start":124.525,"end":127.467,"text":"委員這樣子您剛剛垂詢的有一些部分其實都已經納入了我是不是可以請局長給您比較完整的說明"},{"start":150.578,"end":164.814,"text":"報告委員針對剛剛委員所提的尤其是針對弊端二的這個部分超高利率違約金跟延遲利息的併給的部分我們這邊在那個主任公會的自律規範裡面已經說這兩個不能並行然後再來這個"},{"start":168.258,"end":185.103,"text":"陳述無限制甚至已被記這個部分這涉及到廣告不實會有誤導所以這個部分的話在自律規範裡面也要求主任公司對於他這個行銷單位因為有些行銷的廣告其實是他的代辦公司或者是他業務合作那這誰來管這廣告誰來管"},{"start":186.823,"end":186.843,"text":"這有罰則嗎?"},{"start":204.337,"end":219.764,"text":"自律規範這邊的罰則就是他們公會裡面他們對會員如果違反自律規範會有什麼樣的罰則所以這邊到底用什麼樣的處罰方式看起來沒有處罰啦我大概有看了一下他們的這個自律的規範沒有處罰第一個沒有處罰第二個"},{"start":222.305,"end":233.819,"text":"這有溯及繼往嗎?還是從4月初開始之後,他們自律規範定了之後才開始?那過去呢?過去也有這些超高利率啊,還有葛泰城市無限制啊,那過去的呢?過去的有辦法處理嗎?"},{"start":237.961,"end":238.261,"text":"有講跟沒講一樣你們要去審視阿"},{"start":266.379,"end":288.146,"text":"這過去的這個規定如果都已經違法違法相關的規定那怎麼可以說一刀切4月4號之後的就按照這個自律規範4月3號之前的呢那我們還是按照舊的它違法就違法啦這個你們要去審視你們要請這個諸董公司要去審視過去的契約如果有違法這個相關的規定的話那這個契約就應該是作廢了吧沒有效了吧"},{"start":289.935,"end":317.187,"text":"對,委員我剛剛所說的就是主任公司他不會因為說他之前的契約已經生效他們以後對於消費者的這個部分的話會遵守最新的自律規範對,那我是說之前簽的約勒?對,還是他還是會按照最新的自律規範所以意思是說可以溯及既往就對了?對,是好,那你剛才提到那個四個弊端第一個,廉政死角你沒有回答我是現在廉政還是死角嗎?"},{"start":319.844,"end":323.151,"text":"就是竹林公司跟我們的這個廉政中心到底有沒有連線啊?"},{"start":324.629,"end":352.707,"text":"報告委員現在主任公司有一部分他如果當他需要消費者的信用報告因為這些消費者希望有取得信用報告所以當他如果跟連真拿消費者同意之下他取得信用報告的時候他們這邊他們會把他對消費者的那個授信他會報到連真這邊那所以今天是說主任公司他主動去"},{"start":353.843,"end":377.72,"text":"去跟這個比如說這個要借貸的人去跟他要資料他才去對所以這個就是沒有限制嘛對那因為這個已經取得消費者的同意所以他可以報資料那我認為啦我一般跟這個銀行借款啊他都會去聯徵嘛就是說看我個人的這個借貸紀錄是怎麼樣才決定說到底要不要借和借多少嘛那為什麼租賃公司不要融資公司不用勒"},{"start":378.78,"end":402.756,"text":"這個我的意思是說這個為什麼沒有強制性勒?報告委員那個銀行因為他的風險控管非常的嚴格對這就是問題所在嘛我們對於租賃公司的這個控管風險沒有這麼嚴格啊對報告委員因為租賃公司其實我們跟他談的過程他們有跟我們反應就是說因為他們相對於其他的銀行就是他的速度很快"},{"start":403.516,"end":420.573,"text":"他可能當天就沒有不是齁這個問題就在於說齁通常是比如說信用可能不是很好的人他銀行借不到錢了才到這個租賃公司去借吧那所以說如果再去廉政的話那大概就過不了吧應該是這個原因吧啊但是我們是認為說當然對有些人來講他有這個需求"},{"start":422.634,"end":438.125,"text":"但是如果說能夠跟廉政中心配合的話那至少租賃公司他在借貸的時候他有一個比例嘛或者說我大概可以借多少不是說這個沒有限制那甚至呢借更多給他那形成一種惡性的循環啊"},{"start":438.925,"end":457.441,"text":"所以我才覺得說是不是應該就是說你來借貸的話你每個租賃公司你就必須要跟年政中心來做一個這個審視就是說那到底這個來借貸的人那到底信用有沒有問題啊啊不然這個就變成是空的了嘛就變成說我的信用不好啊但是呢我銀行借不到反正我來租賃公司借嘛"},{"start":458.561,"end":465.426,"text":"這個就是你們要去處理的問題嘛如果你覺得我的想法也不錯那也可以說讓這個這個這個現象就是說這個三道猴子的現象這個一字二性循環那你們就應該去做啊"},{"start":483.666,"end":512.683,"text":"委員我跟您報告其實我們有處理過去前年開始因為連珍是會員制他只有銀行才能加入那有一種方式現在就是像那種做線上P2P的公司我們開第二資料庫他用很快的方式由個人去申請轉借給轉交給他很快的方式取得你的credit report然後交給這個公司也是一種方式不直接取得但是由個人去取得"},{"start":513.363,"end":526.17,"text":"這個你們去設計嘛就是說我是希望說這一個連徵這個有關信用記錄這方面你們也要做處理啊就是說你不能跟我講說那會員不是會員銀行才是會員才可以加入啊"},{"start":527.965,"end":543.792,"text":"我的想法就是說你要去看說那個人借貸的信錄那個信用到底是怎麼樣那如果不好的話你不應該一直在借他那當然說租賃公司要賺錢那可是對那個人來講他可能這個沒有任何的限制的情況之下可能越借越多啊越欠越多啊"},{"start":546.275,"end":574.634,"text":"委員我想您垂訊的地方我們會去努力跟公會銀行公會跟那個廉政中心那邊去這個你們要去處理我覺得你們要去處理好不好就有關這個信用廉政這部分可不可以去處理其實也要看租用公司自己本身的想法我想我們可以去研究你們看他的想法一定是說不用的啊維持現狀是最好的啊但我們就是因為有問題今天才請你們來做報告啊對不對"},{"start":576.42,"end":579.702,"text":"這個你們要想出一個對象出來好不好?你們要去突破 這個是一個問題所在那再請問一下我們現在這個八大關國行庫這個對於融資公司的貸款有1300多億然後呢再加上呢這個還有購買這個三家主任公司的公司債呢200多億所以呢"},{"start":602.463,"end":618.862,"text":"總共這個從這個融資公司呢從八大行庫呢至少齁搬了快1500億左右啦齁那請問一下這個融資公司呢跟這個公股銀行呢這個融資齁然後呢再把這個錢呢再借貸出去啊中間有沒有利差"},{"start":621.935,"end":624.897,"text":"銀行法有相關的這個利率上面的規定嗎?"},{"start":646.511,"end":670.185,"text":"這個我要請教就是說,如果是跟這個主領公司、跟這個公股銀行借錢,我認為啦,還是要有一個限制啦,還是要有一個限制啦。我想那個公股部分我們尊重財政部的決定,但是整體金融機構部分我們會再強化,謝謝。那另外齁,這個有沒有催收的準則出來?"},{"start":672.583,"end":686.737,"text":"主任公司的催修準則有出來嗎?因為現在很多這個主任公司都把他的債權這個轉給這個黑道的也有啊不是其他的什麼來催修也有啊這個催修準則有沒有出來?"},{"start":687.52,"end":689.661,"text":"這個我們對金融機構的催收有一個定型化的契約嗎?"},{"start":703.035,"end":724.413,"text":"有沒有應該是說我們對他們的管理就是說他這邊的吹收他要符合一切法令的規定當然要符合那我意思就是說在這次的自律規範裡面有沒有這個吹收的準則出來啦因為有嗎我們原則性的規定有在這個自律規範裡面這個講了很多都是這個租賃公司的自律啦"},{"start":725.234,"end":727.617,"text":"謝謝李昆成委的質詢因為李燕秀委員另有要問"}]}},{"id":"151258","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151258","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627394d711c84b909d4068d0b55d8f96a4ec5dab72e655c1c94097bac15eae8056a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:51:01 - 11:05:23","影片長度":"00:14:22","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":862,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:05:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:51:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":179,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時50分）謝謝主席，麻煩部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：王委員好。"],["王委員定宇：部長早。任期將屆，但是軍人就是軍人，一輩子的工作。我有些問題要請教部長，我也希望也許在最後的階段，有一些事情能做的反而更可以放手去做。在請教下列問題之前，我先唸一封我所接獲來自基層的信，他已經大概做到副營長了吧，信中內容是：○○單位的輔導長剛接一年期義務役官兵（16人）最近被長官關注，每天都有不同層級的長官來視導，該連的連長跟副連長狀況不好，所以從前一天0800到第二天0800輪值營戰情，24小時無休，9點時政戰主任心輔知能研討會（報告連上心理狀況有問題的人）一直到下午，我除了隱匿可以辨識他是什麼單位以外，我都是用他原來的字詞反映給部長。所以要改善這些心輔知能研討會上認為需要輔導的人，就一直一直做，也沒有辦法休息。人力不足，後來接著站04到06的夜哨，五個連的副連長、輔導長10人輪30天的戰情，扣掉返台假，這句我忘記刪除了，你大概就可以知道他是在外島，20天要輪完，一週輪一天戰情還要連上夜間安官（一週兩次）跟夜哨（站兩歇六）；○○○營區是新營區（剛起封），這個連才16人，要自己負擔連上勤務，還要支援營勤務；○○○是陸官畢業，正期的，抗壓性不錯，現在是少校副營長（已經調回臺灣），整個禮拜只睡幾個鐘頭，都快瘋掉了，整個基層都快死掉，一直被連坐，一直被檢討，很多人都快做不下去，所以很多人被迫離職，編現比下降，幹部被拔掉懲處，就進入惡性循環。","部長，我花了點時間唸，我不去改他的字。部長，你當一輩子軍人了，在場很多將領從預校到正期到任官，英挺，帶著充滿使命感來到部隊裡面，可我們現在部隊基層發生什麼事情，我相信各位比我還清楚，基層幹部的軍官，一個尉級軍官、少校軍官，或者我們的下士、中士，甚至於三等長，他的業務好重啊，他的勤務很重啊，他的任務也很重，在業務、任務、勤務繁重的狀況下，這些年輕的，我不好意思說孩子們，都成年了，就跟我兒子那個年紀一樣，二十來歲的年輕人，連休息時間都沒有，被壓縮，休息時間一直被壓縮。因為他是領導幹部，有責任感，我一定要把長官交付的命令達成，有什麼問題自己要扛起來，就一直扛，連休息時間都被壓縮，不要說生活了，私人的生活、交友、跟外面正常的互動、跟家人，我們在場有些將領有時候進到洞裡面一待多久，可是當二十幾歲年輕人面對這樣的生活情況的時候，有的就只好離職嘛，編現比就下降嘛，最嚴重的個案還會有生命的消逝。我們最近外島某單位有一位不幸過世，被臺灣紛紛擾擾的新聞蓋掉了，我相信部長知道我講哪個單位，他的勤務狀況大概就是我剛念的這些文字。","部長，我們在這邊認識8年了，我能不能拜託部長，我們一起努力來解這問題？解決方法第一個是增加人力，那個沒辦法速成，我希望編現比拉上來、把預算員額填補上來，這個該做，這個永遠都該做。但在部隊是上而下的體系，掌握權力大的，有一些有時候一聲令下、馬上可以改變的東西，像合理化減少業務、合理化減少勤務、合理化任務，軍人沒錯，軍人不是該死啊！軍人的天命是守護國家、服從命令，但是軍人是國家的資產，從一個下士、一個少尉，哪怕到上將，包含您都是國家重要的資產，犯錯該罰，但是我們應該給他一個合理的工作環境。比如說我們在立法院這邊這麼多年了，外面走廊上面，我看到有些中校、少校，相較各位可能比較低階的，一站就站一個早上，我們也覺得其實有更好的方式、更合理的空間，讓大家更能夠全心全力面對該做的工作，而不是耗損在不必要的事情上。這個過世的案子我認得，我認得這個過世的案子，所以部長你在接下來任期內，能不能具體的減少一些真的是沒必要的業務、沒必要的書面、沒必要的紙類、沒必要的填寫、沒必要的app、沒必要的……就是不斷地重複做一些沒有用的事情，我講得比較過分一點。部長，我不知道你怎麼回應我第一個題目？"],["邱部長國正：第一個，跟委員報告，的確很遺憾，但我不否認有這種事情，的確會有，我也不推責任，因為我不能怪基層幹部或當事人。事實上，我們國軍有很多時期、很多幹部、很多長官都在要求什麼？第一個，我們很清楚我們開不了源，所以人力增加很難……"],["王委員定宇：人力增加當然是該做的。"],["邱部長國正：但我們節流，節約人力的運用，這一直在努力的，我不怪罪這些基層幹部，我一直在跟我同仁說基層他畢竟經驗不夠，要靠我們中高層的人去教。但問題是假如說中高層的幹部，他當初也這樣基層一路過來的，他根本體會不到。但我承認會有這種問題，我經過這麼多年努力，包含前面部長在這方面也很努力，我記得以前更早期有一個李部長，海軍的，他都要求把聯隊裡面這些表簿冊減到最低……"],["王委員定宇：是啊！"],["邱部長國正：剩兩樣，一個是早上點名冊一定要有，第二個就查哨簿，大概就這樣子，其他統統免。"],["王委員定宇：部長，我相信你們，你們在職業生涯都有休假被叫回來加班的經驗……"],["邱部長國正：沒有錯，經過了幾年以後，它又出來，我不能怪他們。所以我跟委員報告，不光是答應委員，而且我覺得這是我們應該要做的基本工作之一，我請各軍種真的要好好檢討一下……"],["王委員定宇：部長，我建議這樣子……"],["邱部長國正：我們規定不要再增加了……"],["王委員定宇：我看過一個日劇叫change，那個首相快下臺前，大家都以為沒有什麼事可以做了，他看到桌上放著一杯一杯的茶，每次開會泡一堆茶都沒有人喝，他就算一算，這一年要花八十幾萬，他說我們哪怕做到最後一天，可以改、可以省掉一點錢，我們都把它改掉。所以部長跟三軍的參謀長跟政戰局長，因為你們現在的位置可以做事情，如果你當年在少校、當年在上尉，我要你去改這個，坦白講，緣木求魚，你們也是一路這樣上來的，能不能檢視一下我們現有的勤務、任務、表單，而且三個軍種把它列為KPI。我在陸軍很合理，陸軍沒有莫名其的表單，每一張單子都是有用的東西，對不對？甚至於可以合併就合併了，有的會自動填寫就自動填寫了，你們比較內行，我們看到的是問題，但我不希望在這邊責備任何人，因為大家都在努力。可是有時候上面越關心，下面的擔子越多；上面越要求減輕，接下來的事情就會更多。本來還輕鬆點，現在要開會大家來研究，我們不要這樣做。部長、各位參謀長跟各位業管，就你們所知道的將心比心。譬如我當上校時，我覺得這個簡直莫名其妙，所以就把它改掉，我們在立法院願意支持這件事情。這件事看起來不比飛機大砲重要，看起來沒有飛彈那麼絢爛、絢麗，但這是紮紮實實的戰力，而且跟編現比、跟停留營的意願其實是有關係；跟很多父母讓孩子來到軍中服務是有關係的；跟現在義務役恢復一年期，家長的擔心也有關係。部長在這個位置上，你就是部長，我期待能在這段時間把過重的勤務、沒有必要的任務、沒有必要的繁雜的東西去除掉。部長，最後能不能請你講幾句話？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我絕對有把握可以改變這個。經過這幾年努力，我到各單位去要你們簡單、簡單、簡單，到最後還是搞得很複雜。但我還是那句話，我不怪他們！但我跟委員報告，現在目前已經改了兩樣事情，也是關鍵事情：第一個，以前部隊推動任何工作，長官很簡單，要求要零缺點，這句話我絕對不講。不可能沒有缺點，但你要求零缺點，那麼他唯一最快的方法就是把書面改一改，這樣就零缺點了，我們絕對不這樣做！第二個，我不做評比，也就是連跟連做評比，哪個營跟旅做評比。評到最後，當中可能就出了很多弊端，有些幹部比較機靈的，就會用這種方法，可能造成後患無窮。我們在部隊裡面多年，我也曾經遇過長官的要求不合理，但我知道我無法片面改變。我要跟委員報告，從當基層幹部開始到現在，我做法都沒有變，簡單扼要，不要搞鋪張……"],["王委員定宇：部長，因為時間關係……"],["邱部長國正：我來努力……"],["王委員定宇：我們在可見的這幾個禮拜，紮紮實實做一些改變出來。"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["王委員定宇：讓基層幹部感受到不一樣，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：我瞭解。"],["王委員定宇：我還有兩個問題，但我先請教部長第三個問題。現在海軍預計成立濱海作戰指揮部，下轄海鋒大隊、飛彈快艇、海洋監偵，也就是雷達相關單位，這個訊息沒有錯吧？因為這已經談了相當時間，且指揮官的編階會拉到中將位置，以上這樣表述有沒有錯誤，海軍參謀長？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，因應目前的法定預算，不管雄風系列或魚叉飛彈的逐次成軍，在可見的未來是一定要做一個整合……"],["王委員定宇：這是對的，你看烏克蘭沒有海軍還可以打得黑海艦隊到處跑！我現在講的是我所看到的媒體報導，所以我要請教你；如果不方便回答，我們可以私下討論。也就是這個單位將來要負擔24海里內的防務，對還是錯？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，這個不會是在24海里，因為這是整個防衛概念……"],["王委員定宇：光看到下轄海鋒、飛彈快艇，還有海洋監偵，然後這個單位管24海里以內的防務，我就看不懂了！海鋒大隊隨便一顆飛彈都飛幾百公里，卻只管24海里？所以乍看之下這一段描述我理解不過來，今天才要請教你。你們管的包含載臺，所謂載臺就是不管快艇，或者是移動的車，或者是雷達，或者機動的、固定的，這個單位是管這個。至於載臺上搭載什麼系統、要飛多遠、要做什麼事情，那是另外一件事情。但這牽涉到將來這個單位是直接屬海軍指揮？還是戰時轉由作戰區去指揮？還是直接由參謀本部指揮？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：報告委員，這個都在我們目前編設的考量中，那是我們的目標，也就是在結合平跟戰。平時的訓練就包含監偵能力與打擊用兵；在作戰狀況提升之後，會都在整個制海下去做一個比較有效率的轉換。"],["王委員定宇：所以指揮鏈你們還沒有確定？"],["邱參謀長俊榮：我們已經有規劃，但是不會在這邊做比較詳細……"],["王委員定宇：我知道，如果不方便的話，你可以講不方便，我們以國家機密、國家利益為重。我最後要提醒的是，指揮鏈包含後備單位，所以屆時指揮鏈到底應該放在陸軍？放在參謀本部？或者是什麼獨立單位？都牽涉到戰時的因應彈性化，既要去中心化，又要符合指揮鏈的如臂使指，這兩個其實有一些部分是矛盾的。這個議題我們將來繼續討論，至於剛才的第一個議題，我期待在可見的短期時間內能看到邱部長的表現，好不好？"],["邱部長國正：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（10時5分）","繼續開會（11時11分）"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：各位同仁請就坐，後面請就坐，我們準備繼續開會。下面請馬文君委員就質詢台。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-13","speakers":["馬文君","林楚茵","黃仁","陳永康","羅美玲","王定宇","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","李柏毅","洪孟楷","羅智強","林憶君","王鴻薇","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢（含秘密會議）","agenda_id":"1133001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.31784375,"end":1.7353437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.29221875,"end":3.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.645343750000002,"end":12.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.15971875,"end":13.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.30721875,"end":16.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.09159375,"end":19.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.90971875,"end":22.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.18346875,"end":24.516593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.95534375,"end":28.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.37659375,"end":32.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.48159375,"end":32.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.118468750000005,"end":36.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.22346875,"end":39.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.85596875,"end":40.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.353468750000005,"end":48.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.407218750000006,"end":51.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.86659375,"end":54.790343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.34721875,"end":61.945343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.20659375000001,"end":71.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.18846875,"end":79.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.81159375,"end":81.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.34721875000001,"end":86.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.97096875000001,"end":88.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.48534375,"end":91.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.26971875000001,"end":94.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.98659375000001,"end":95.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.16784375,"end":96.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.89346875000001,"end":100.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.46659375,"end":104.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.73596875000001,"end":113.31284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.83596875,"end":121.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.50971875,"end":125.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.86784375,"end":127.50471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.92659375000001,"end":130.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.13284375,"end":132.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.70221875000001,"end":136.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.66784375,"end":145.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.74221875,"end":147.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.51409375,"end":149.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.80909375000002,"end":151.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.53034375000001,"end":153.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.82534375,"end":157.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.64346875,"end":159.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.09034375000002,"end":160.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.45721875,"end":162.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.22909375,"end":163.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.10659375,"end":166.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.07659375,"end":170.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.05909375000002,"end":178.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.64846875,"end":181.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.69034375,"end":185.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.75721875000002,"end":189.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.41909375,"end":192.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.79409375,"end":197.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.09284375000001,"end":202.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.93596875,"end":205.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.09159375000002,"end":207.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.88034375,"end":208.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.70284375,"end":215.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.02659375000002,"end":218.61284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.01784375000003,"end":219.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.70534375000003,"end":221.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.08909375000002,"end":223.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.99596875,"end":224.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.16846875000002,"end":228.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.00346875000002,"end":231.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.07909375000003,"end":233.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.62721875000003,"end":235.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.46659375000002,"end":237.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.17096875000001,"end":239.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.11159375000003,"end":240.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.44471875000002,"end":242.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.12784375,"end":245.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.27096875,"end":248.54909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.35909375000003,"end":250.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.26159375,"end":256.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.48846875000004,"end":259.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.86784375,"end":262.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.50034375,"end":264.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.17096875000004,"end":266.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.01034375,"end":269.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.21659375,"end":277.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.26596875,"end":280.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.57346875,"end":284.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.76284375,"end":291.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.37346875000003,"end":294.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.71909375,"end":296.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.35159375,"end":298.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.07284375,"end":302.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.47721875,"end":305.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.94096875,"end":307.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.42159375,"end":309.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.60284375000003,"end":311.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.21846875,"end":313.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.37846875,"end":317.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.79971875,"end":319.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.95971875000004,"end":321.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.10721875,"end":323.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.44034375,"end":324.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.49909375000004,"end":330.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.93284375,"end":334.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.94909375000003,"end":338.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.50971875000005,"end":339.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.75409375000004,"end":342.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.08284375,"end":343.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.60971875,"end":348.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.72721875,"end":351.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.77346875,"end":352.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.61721875,"end":353.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.96721875000003,"end":355.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.46909375,"end":356.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.89909375,"end":358.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.36721875,"end":376.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.56284375,"end":377.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.86221875,"end":383.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.35909375,"end":388.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.01659375,"end":395.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.25596875,"end":406.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.28909375,"end":401.26784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.22471875,"end":415.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.30346875000004,"end":422.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.64846875,"end":425.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.66909375,"end":464.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.38846875,"end":439.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.13409375000003,"end":450.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.58721875000003,"end":467.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.16096875000005,"end":467.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.70471875000004,"end":472.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.49284375,"end":475.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.78784375000004,"end":489.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.72659375,"end":490.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.43534375,"end":494.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.17721875,"end":497.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.10096875000005,"end":497.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.13471875000005,"end":513.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.71846875,"end":520.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.9115937500001,"end":521.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.24471875,"end":524.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.6240937499999,"end":525.0459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.53534375,"end":527.9990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.8259687500001,"end":529.7878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.3447187500001,"end":541.3303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.0559687500001,"end":560.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.28096875,"end":568.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.8828437500001,"end":582.5222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.06221875,"end":591.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.5122187500001,"end":595.3303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.38096875,"end":606.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":606.9740937500001,"end":612.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.7790937500001,"end":619.5459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.69784375,"end":621.4697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":621.99284375,"end":633.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":634.05846875,"end":650.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":651.0178437500001,"end":660.1472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":660.2822187500001,"end":673.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":673.8159687500001,"end":683.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.67159375,"end":684.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.13909375,"end":690.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.2865937500001,"end":686.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":690.01596875,"end":691.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":690.1340937500001,"end":716.2903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.22596875,"end":696.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":717.15096875,"end":718.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":719.1084687500002,"end":734.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.6940937500001,"end":724.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":732.5915937500001,"end":741.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.9540937500001,"end":735.3759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":736.5234687500001,"end":737.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":741.4340937500001,"end":750.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":750.8840937500001,"end":751.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":750.95159375,"end":751.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":752.36909375,"end":760.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":753.9890937499999,"end":754.9172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":757.41471875,"end":767.7422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":768.0122187500001,"end":771.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":771.4040937500001,"end":782.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":783.16596875,"end":784.7522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":784.8872187500001,"end":807.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":807.02721875,"end":807.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":807.6684687500001,"end":807.7022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":808.3940937500001,"end":814.7390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":815.02596875,"end":830.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":829.5890937500001,"end":836.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":831.7322187500001,"end":832.9809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":837.01409375,"end":848.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":848.64096875,"end":862.15784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.629,"end":28.245,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩部長請邱部長王委員好部長早這個任期將屆但是軍人就是軍人一輩子的工作我有一些問題要請教部長我也希望也許在最後的階段有一些事情能做的反而更可以放手去做"},{"start":29.454,"end":50.886,"text":"我再請教下列問題我先念一封我接到基層的他已經大概做到副營長了吧的一封信某某單位的輔導長剛接一年期義務役官兵16人最近被長官關注每一天都有不同層級的長官來視導"},{"start":53.13,"end":81.133,"text":"聯的聯長跟副聯長狀況不好所以從前一天動巴動動到第二天動巴動動輪值迎戰情20小時無休9點的時候政戰主任新府之人研討會報告聯上心理有問題的人報告聯上有些狀況的人一直到下午我除了隱匿可以辨識他什麼單位以外我都用他原來的字詞反映給部長所以"},{"start":82.403,"end":98.451,"text":"要改善這些心理知能研討會上認為需要輔導的人那一直一直做也沒有辦法休息人力不足後來接著做站這個動四動六的夜哨五個連的副連長輔導長10個人輪30天戰情扣掉反台價這句我忘記刪了你大概就知道在外島"},{"start":106.116,"end":123.917,"text":"20天要輪完一週輪一天暫勤還要連上夜間安關一週兩次跟夜哨站兩歇六某某某營區新營區剛啟封這個連才16個人要自己負擔連上勤務還要支援營的勤務某某人是入關畢業"},{"start":125.922,"end":153.819,"text":"正期的抗壓性不錯現在是少校副營長現在已經調回台灣整個禮拜只睡幾個鐘頭都快瘋掉了整個基層都快死掉了一直被連坐一直被檢討很多人快坐不下去所以很多人被迫離職邊線筆下降幹部被拔掉懲處進入惡性循環我花了點時間念我不去改他的字部長你當一輩子軍人了"},{"start":154.912,"end":178.324,"text":"我們在場很多將領從小右就是御孝到正齊到任官、殷廷帶著充滿使命感來到部隊裡面可我們現在部隊基層發生什麼事情我相信各位比我還清楚基層的幹部的軍官一個衛級軍官、少校軍官或者我們的下士、中士甚至於三等長"},{"start":179.687,"end":208.334,"text":"他的業務好重啊他的勤務很重啊他的任務也很重這些業務任務勤務繁重的狀況下這些年輕我不好意思說孩子們都成年了就跟我兒子那個年紀一樣20來歲的年輕人連休息時間都沒有被壓縮休息人一直壓縮因為他是領導幹部有責任感我一定要把長官交付的命令達成有什麼問題自己要扛起來就一直扛"},{"start":210.315,"end":233.066,"text":"連休息時間都被壓縮不要說生活了私人的生活交友跟外面正常的互動跟家人我們在場有些將領有時候進到洞裡面一待多久可是當二十幾歲年輕人他面對這樣的生活情況的時候有的就只好離職嘛"},{"start":234.67,"end":235.21,"text":"我能不能拜託部長"},{"start":263.544,"end":290.716,"text":"我們一起努力來解決這個問題解決方法第一個是增加人力那個沒辦法速成我希望邊線筆拉上來我希望把預算原額把它填補上來這個該做這個永遠都該做但有一些當在部隊是上而下的體系掌握權力大的有時候一聲令下馬上可以改變的東西像合理化減少業務"},{"start":292.435,"end":319.492,"text":"合理化減少勤務合理化任務軍人沒錯軍人不是該死啊軍人的天命是守護國家服從命令但是軍人是國家的資產從一個下士一個少尉哪怕到上將包含您都是國家重要的資產犯錯該罰但是我們應該給他一個合理的工作環境有時候我們在立法院這邊"},{"start":321.181,"end":341.793,"text":"這麼多年了外面走廊上面我看到有些中校少校相較各位可能比較低階的一站站一個早上我們也覺得其實有更好的方式更合理的空間讓大家更能夠全心全力的面對該做的工作而不是耗損在不必要事情上這個過世的案子我認得我認得這個過世的案子"},{"start":350.782,"end":356.148,"text":"所以部長你在接下來任期內我們能不能"},{"start":357.967,"end":360.808,"text":"第一個跟委員報告的確很遺憾但我不否認有這種事情的確會有"},{"start":384.48,"end":401.651,"text":"我也不推責任,因為我不能怪基層幹部或他當事人。事實上我們國軍有很多時期,很多幹部,很多長官都在要求什麼?第一個我們很清楚,我們開不了員,所以開員人力增加不是我們要做的。"},{"start":402.512,"end":423.762,"text":"但我們節約人力的運用是一直在努力的我不怪罪這些基層幹部我一直在跟我同仁講說基層他畢竟經驗不夠要靠我們中高層的人去教但問題是假如說中高層的幹部他當初也叫基層一路過來的他根本體會不到但我承認會有這種問題"},{"start":425.723,"end":453.618,"text":"我經過這麼多年努力包含前面部長也在這方面也很努力我記得以前更早期李部長和海軍的他都要求把連隊裡面這些表部冊撿到最低剩兩樣一個早上點名冊一定要有第二個就查照簿就加這個樣子其他通通免部長我相信你們生涯都有被休假叫出來加班的經驗經過了幾年以後他又出來我不能怪他們"},{"start":454.378,"end":472.561,"text":"所以我跟委員報不光是答應委員而且這我覺得我們應該要做的基本工作之一我請各軍種真的要好好檢討一下我們的規定不要再增加了我看過一個電視劇叫日劇叫Change那個首相快下台前"},{"start":473.662,"end":473.902,"text":"王定宇"},{"start":495.296,"end":520.101,"text":"因為你們現在的位置可以做事情如果你當年在少校當年在上位我要你去改這個齁我坦白講緣木求魚你們也是一路這樣上來的能不能檢視一下我們現有的勤務任務表單而且三個軍種齁把列為KPI以後我在陸軍很合理陸軍齁沒有莫名其妙表單每一張單子都是有用的東西對不對"},{"start":522.304,"end":522.704,"text":"王定宇"},{"start":542.113,"end":567.61,"text":"接下來的事情更多本來還輕鬆點現在要開一個會大家來研究我們不要這樣做我就說就部長跟各位參謀長跟各位業館就你們知道的你就將心比心我當時當上校的時候我覺得這個簡直是莫名其妙的我就把它改掉那我覺得我們在立法院願意支持這個事情這個事情看起來不比飛機大炮重要看起來不比飛彈"},{"start":569.926,"end":570.266,"text":"王定宇"},{"start":592.571,"end":618.111,"text":"部長在這個位置上你就是部長我們在這段時間把這個過重的勤務沒有必要的任務沒有必要的這些繁雜的東西把它去除掉能不能請你最後講幾句話我跟委員報告我絕對有這個把握我可以改變這個雖然經過這幾年努力我到各單位去我想你們簡單簡單簡單到最後還是很複雜但我還是這句話我不怪他們"},{"start":622.054,"end":649.966,"text":"但我跟委員報告我現在目前已經改兩樣事情也是關鍵第一個以前部隊推動任何工作長官很簡單他要求我們要零缺點我這句話我絕對不講不會沒有缺點你要求零缺點他唯一最快方法出面改一改那就零缺點我們絕對不這樣做第二個我不做評比了這個聯跟這個聯做評比打個迎擊跟旅客評到最後"},{"start":651.032,"end":651.172,"text":"王定宇"},{"start":673.908,"end":691.133,"text":"我到現在做法都沒有變喔簡單扼要不要搞那個鋪髒的所以我在還是我努力我們在可見的這幾個禮拜紮紮實實做一些改變出來讓基層的幹部有感受說欸不一樣好不好另外喔"},{"start":691.713,"end":717.547,"text":"我請教我還有兩個問題我看我移到第三個問題請教部長我們現在海軍的冰海作戰指揮部預計要成立嘛吼那下轄海豐大隊飛彈快艇跟海洋艦針就我們一些雷達相關單位這個訊息沒有錯吧因為這個已經談了相關時間那這一個指揮官的邊接會把他拉上到中將的位置我一向這樣表述有沒有錯誤那個海軍參謀長"},{"start":719.644,"end":740.759,"text":"報告委員因應整個的目前我們法定預算不管我們雄風系列或是魚叉飛彈的逐次的成軍在可見的未來是一定要做一個當晚的作戰這個是一個對的啦因為你看烏克蘭沒有海軍還可以打的黑海艦隊跑到處都是我現在要講的是我看到"},{"start":741.559,"end":767.541,"text":"我看到媒體報導的所以我現在要請教你如果不方便回答我們可以私下討論就是這個單位將來是要負擔24海里內的防務對還是錯?報告委員這個不會是在24海里內我們不方便因為這是整個防衛的概念我光看到下轄海豐飛彈快艇還有海洋尖針然後這個單位管24海里內防務我就看不懂了"},{"start":768.121,"end":796.244,"text":"因為我們海豐大隊隨便一顆都飛幾百公里啊那你只管20台里這一看就所以我認為這一段描述我理解不過來我今天才要請教你好那所以我們管的包含載台載台就是不管是快艇或者是移動的車或者是雷達或者機動的或固定的我們這個單位是管這一個至於這個載台上面搭載什麼系統要飛多遠要做什麼事情那是另外一件事情"},{"start":796.704,"end":801.228,"text":"這就牽涉到說將來這個單位是直接屬海軍指揮還是暫時轉為作戰區去指揮還是直接向參謀本部指揮"},{"start":808.807,"end":835.93,"text":"報言這個都在我們目前編設的考量中間那是我們的目標就是在結合平跟戰那平時的訓練就包含了艦增能力跟打擊跟用兵那在作戰當狀況提升之後他會都在整個制海下面他會做一個比較有效率的轉換所以指揮鏈你們還沒有確定我們已經有規劃但是不會在這邊因為我知道不方便你可以講不方便啦我們國家機密國家利益為重我最後提醒就是說指揮鏈"},{"start":836.971,"end":836.991,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"151257","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151257","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627d671bc33a8dd59f40915613d02a5e1dcc5dab72e655c1c94f3c13d40c4121fb85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"10:51:34 - 11:04:31","影片長度":"00:12:57","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（4月17日及18日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":777,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:04:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:51:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":466,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（10時51分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長好。部長擔任部長七年多了，史上任期最長，520要卸任，功成身退，沒有功勞也有苦勞，那我想跟部長恭喜，恭喜的是對自己好一點，接下來的時間給自己更多。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：部長也辛苦了，從現在開始，應該可以更暢所欲言。部長，在教育方面有沒有什麼遺憾、還沒做的？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，謝謝剛才委員這樣的鼓勵，因為教育真的很繁複啦！這幾年也確實一步一步的跟教育部的同仁來處理，也有很多方案、法案是得到大院的一些支持。我講真話，以這幾年教育部，投入學前的不管機制的建置等等措施，從經費、機制的建立其實是相當大的投入。但如果從今天召委安排的這個，我自己覺得這麼多年大家、政府一起努力，臺灣的出生率仍然還沒有看到顯著的提升，而少子女化後對教育的影響，還在持續的觀察。以這樣的關鍵，未來不管是教育部門或整個政府，對這個議題還是要持續不斷的來做，因為現在變化太快了。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我原本是想問你高等教育的一些理想，我個人覺得大學教育是培養精英的話，其他各路職業教育培養不同產業所需要人才也是一種理想嗎？廣設大學讓高等教育普及率變高是一種理想嗎？這些我們都想要問一下，到底在我們心目中的答案是什麼？其實上述兩種理念在各方面都是有衝突的，教育是百年大樹，人才培育真的不易，可是我們推出的政策有時候只是救急、撒再多的錢、理由再好聽，都沒有用。待會的質詢我想先問部長4個問題，但不用急著回答，心中想一下，學生是否快樂學習？學生是否已經整體帶上來？教育的品質是否提升？以及教改是否能夠感受到成功？民國83年410教改訴求，開啟臺灣高教之濫觴，410教改廣設高中跟大學，變成當時教育政策的一大核心主軸，當中有4大訴求：主張落實小班小校、廣設高中大學、推動教育現代化、制定教育的基本法。部長，請問當年教改的理想落實了嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，這裡頭有很多項都是逐步在展開，有一些已經推行，像教育基本法都定了。小班小校如果在中小學，我比較資深，我在任教的時候，臺灣一班小學生進來是64個。"],["羅委員廷瑋：是，是沒錯，但是您資深了。"],["潘部長文忠：對，是我在小學服務當時的人數，而且還是二部制喔！"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想還是要讓您知道現在的狀況，受少子化的影響，按理小班小校目標雖然不難達到，但現在除了人數太少的小校會被廢校消失外，各縣市依然有不少的學校班級數超過30班以上。至於高中教育的階段，班級人數更多，公立學校每班人數仍有35人，私校更有不少高達45人左右。廣設高中的目標，希望五年內達到同年齡20%的人可以上大學，設定這樣子的門檻是希望維持大學的教育品質，希望在紓解升學壓力的前提下，維持大學的優質目標，同時人才合理的分流，但是有嗎？全國最高峰總校數達167所，大學多到人人都有大學念，甚至還有不少大學因招不滿學生面臨退場危機，教育的品質是否有提升？我們自己做民意代表也時不時接到了高中、大學端打電話來問，可不可以幫忙協助招生？大學破百間以後，升學壓力就消除了嗎？並沒有。現在的高中學習歷程設計讓學校活動社團消滅了，更多是大家都要去上補習班學才藝，學生是否有達到快樂學習也是我們應該要探討的。","廣設高中卻未能兼顧普高跟技職的均衡發展，造成了高中數量大幅增加，卻傷害了技職教育。我本身就是職業學校畢業的，當前造成臺灣技職體系弱化的困境，技專校院卻增加，進用的師資、辦學方向卻朝向一般大學來前進，重要研究、輕實務，致使技職教育學術化，消失的高職在整個升學導向趨勢同樣重升學、輕實務，有照顧到念完高職想實際就業的學生利益嗎？這個部分我也要再另外補充，有同學、家長會的家長跟我們講，目前體制上，高中轉高職學生的學分會被承認，高職轉高中的學分時數卻不足，導致高中學校不被承認學分，導致這條路上很少人去走，都是以重考居多。當然中投區也有適性輔導轉系的招生，但都會遇到公立學校不願意丟出名額，大部分都是私立學校釋出善意，名額居多，導致適性輔導媒合的成功機率不多，這都是我們在第一線實務上所遇到的狀況，這就是民眾給我們實際的反映。","部長，李遠哲先生最近出了一本新書，對於當年推動教改，他直接說當年教改會提出的只是建議而已，他既不是政府官員，也不是教育部長，在教改議題上一直追著他打，是因為2000年政黨輪替的時候，他支持民進黨，看起來他覺得背黑鍋、很委屈。我個人認為真的很遺憾，教改的問題不是他支持哪一個政黨，而是現在我們面對的是政府不擅長去處理灰犀牛的問題，為什麼我會這樣說？因為早在民國93年陳水扁總統執政的時期，監察院報告就已經糾正並示警，當時的部長是杜正勝。適度擴張、擴充高等教育容量雖然是教育改革總諮議報告書的主張，但是近年來大專院校一直快速的改制增設，導致師資水準追不上學生的成長，大學院校生師比年年增高，教育資源一直嚴重地稀釋，教育品質惡化的傾向，教育部雖然提出了要建立退場機制，以淘汰不具競爭力的學校，另鼓勵學校整合。其實我們看到這些都是它當時所做的言論，很多很多的言論包括我隨便節錄幾段：82學年度，我國大專院校125所，學生人數是68萬9,185人，但至92學年度，學校的成長數是167所，10年中，總計增加45所大專院校，成長了百分之三十三點多，我想這些都是我們在顯然提供教改人士所說的廣設高中、大學的訴求下，教育部順應而快速地鬆綁，造成大專學校快速地增設，而我們現在就在面對這樣子的問題來做一個探討。我想，同年度有很多的數據都提出，我們當時的教改建議竟然變成了我們現在要面對的一個問題，我想教育部順應教改人士的訴求雖然值得肯定，但是教育資源成長有限，在成長人口逐漸趨減之下，我們看到高等校院短期內急速的改制跟擴充，再來提出退場機制，無異是浪費社會的整體資源，且易引發整個社會爭議。我剛剛為什麼說你可以提出自己的肺腑之言，因為您目前也即將要卸任了，您對於這樣子的一個亂象認為我們該怎麼辦？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，早上有多位委員在關心，我要再講，當時410包含行政院組成的教改諮議審議會，當時的時空背景，臺灣在戒嚴時期之後，在教育上確實是產生比較多的限制，所以才有410的倡議，也因為很多的教育上是比較回到標準的這種要求，所以才有教育的鬆綁。如果以當時的時空，我相信可以理解當時社會所期待的是臺灣的教育應該可以更多元、活潑，因為很低的大學入學率，在當時只有百分之二十幾，說真話，如果以臺灣整體的發展來看，會覺得適度去擴充的這個建議以當時的時空可以理解，因為從87年後就可以看得出來，我們的出生率是一直在不斷地往下修正，我比較公允地來講，以現在來看會覺得當時為什麼設那麼多，但是當時臺灣幾乎是……"],["羅委員廷瑋：當然，我們現在是說時空背景嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：不只李遠哲院長，有好多人都是我們現在熟悉的……"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我才會提出杜正勝所說的，他當時就已經有在示警了，並不是我們最近才事後諸葛地來說這些之前的錯，從當時杜正勝這樣說到現在也一段時間了。前面四個問題我剛剛有問到，在監察院的報告裡面有總結，監察院說今日重新審視，有很多當年的訴求已經達成了，但論及目標及效能則否，我們是否能更簡單地問：學生是否快樂學習？我們的孩子是否已經有帶上來？教育品質有沒有提升？教改是否真的成功了？恐怕是負面的結果仍占絕對高的比例，分析其原因，我們看到教育部長更迭頻繁、政策無法持續一貫、教改的配套措施不夠周延即躁進實施、教育資源不足即超速廣設校院。我想教育是百年大計，我們都在講百年大計，所以一直在談教改、教改，教改改到現在必須面對的是要不斷調整的問題，就像我們剛剛前面所提到的，政府不擅長面對灰犀牛，那少子化的浪潮也不是一天兩天的事情，不是今天才少子化，前人不斷地提醒，就是杜正勝當時所示警的，監察院也提出糾正，但是我們的政府卻好像完全不去面對這個危機的到來，那為何政府就是視而不見？也希望教育部真的要虛心檢討教改政策的狀況，儘早調整對策，不要讓我們的孩子永遠變成教育部的白老鼠。","我的時間已經到了，但是我要跟你講，其實對於吸引僑生人才以及臺灣高教人才的流失，我們都非常地關注，我們對這些都有準備議題，但是時間有限，雖然您準備卸任了，但是底下有許多的同仁以及長官都還在，我們應該要來面對這個問題，我自己的政策也一直在推，我們的國教希望向下延伸，這是我們日後希望能夠探討的題目，我們更希望教育部在這個部分能夠一起來努力。最後我要提醒部長，您在這個質詢台有答應過我夜光天使的部分，我希望不會因為換了部長……"],["潘部長文忠：不會啦！我們署長一直積極地跟臺中市政府聯絡。"],["羅委員廷瑋：也希望您能夠幫我們再盯一下，我想教育是很重要的，我們希望延續下去，拜託您，好嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝部長。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們先休息5分鐘，謝謝。","休息（11時4分）","繼續開會（11時9分）"],["主席：好，現在繼續開會，接下來我們請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-8","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","吳春城","范雲","張嘉郡","羅智強","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","廖偉翔","莊瑞雄","劉建國","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.67534375,"end":9.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.31221875,"end":10.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.699718750000002,"end":36.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.75221875,"end":29.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.071593750000005,"end":38.877218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.26534375,"end":43.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.34909375,"end":103.40721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.40721875000001,"end":181.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.49159375,"end":103.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.80846875,"end":200.87721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.34284375000001,"end":191.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.52846875,"end":191.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.87721875000003,"end":204.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.11346875,"end":203.88096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.01596875,"end":208.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.48784375000002,"end":315.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.02784375000002,"end":209.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.84659375,"end":357.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.83159375,"end":388.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.11784375,"end":411.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.39284375000005,"end":419.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.10034375000004,"end":423.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.18409375000005,"end":539.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.9465937500001,"end":560.7703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.05721875,"end":637.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.67909375,"end":634.2609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.57284375,"end":766.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.3484687499999,"end":641.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":766.29096875,"end":770.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":768.8897187500002,"end":776.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":771.04971875,"end":771.1172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":773.0915937500001,"end":773.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":775.13346875,"end":776.09534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.112,"end":8.754,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長"},{"start":13.952,"end":38.708,"text":"委員好部長好部長擔任部長7年多了史上任期最長520要卸任功成身退沒有功勞也有苦勞我想跟部長恭喜恭喜的是對自己好一點接下來的時間給自己更多謝謝委員部長也辛苦了從現在開始應該可以更暢所欲言部長有沒有什麼一些遺憾還沒做的在教育的方面"},{"start":39.635,"end":61.513,"text":"跟委員報告謝謝剛才委員的這樣的鼓勵因為教育真的很繁複那這幾年也確實一步一步的跟教育部的同仁來處理也很多方案法案是得到我們大院的一些支持那委員所提到的其實我講真話如果以這幾年教育部我舉例"},{"start":62.694,"end":62.714,"text":"羅廷瑋議員"},{"start":80.129,"end":81.47,"text":"我想這個高等教育我原本是想問你高等教育的一些理想"},{"start":108.241,"end":134.751,"text":"我個人覺得大學教育是培養菁英的話那其他各路職業教育培養不同產業所需要人才也是一種理想嗎?我想廣設大學讓高等教育普及率變高是一種理想嗎?這個我們都想要問一下到底在我們心目中的答案是什麼?其實上述兩種理念在各方面都是有衝突的教育是百年大樹人才培育真的不易可是我們推出的政策有時候只是救急"},{"start":135.931,"end":158.738,"text":"灑錢再多的錢理由再好聽都沒有用那待會的質詢我想先問部長四個問題但不用急著回答心中想一下學生是否快樂學習學生是否已經整體的帶上來教育的品質是否有提升以及教改是否能夠感受到有成功民國83年410教改訴求開啟台灣高校之爛商410教改"},{"start":163.58,"end":180.973,"text":"廣設高中及大學變成當時教育政策的一大核心主軸當中有四大訴求主張落實小班小校廣設高中大學推動教育現代化制定教育的基本法部長請問當年教改的理想落實了嗎"},{"start":182.134,"end":199.682,"text":"跟我們報告這裡頭有很多項都是逐步的在展開也有一些已經發行像那個教育基本法都訂了小班小校如果在中小學跟我們比較資深我在任教的時候台灣一班小學生竟然是64個"},{"start":200.922,"end":203.603,"text":"現在受少子化的影響按理小班小校目標雖然不難達到但現在除了人數太少的小校會被廢校消失外"},{"start":221.65,"end":236.585,"text":"各縣市依然有不少的學校班級數超過30班以上至於高中教育的階段班級人數更多公立學校每班人數仍有35人師校更有不少高達45人左右"},{"start":237.606,"end":255.5,"text":"廣設高中的一個目標希望5年內達到同年齡20%的人可以上大學設定這樣子的一個門檻是希望維持大學的一個教育品質希望在紓解升學壓力的前提下維持大學的一個優質目標同時人才合理的分流但是有嗎?"},{"start":256.221,"end":280.387,"text":"全國最高峰總校數達167所大學多到人人都有大學念甚至還有不少大學因招不滿學生面臨退場危機教育的品質是否有提升我們自己做民意代表也時不時接到了高中大學端打來電話可不可以幫忙協助招生大學破百間以後升學壓力就消除了嗎"},{"start":281.828,"end":293.762,"text":"現在的高中學習歷程設計讓我們的學校活動社團消滅更多大家都要去上補習班學才藝學生是否有達到快樂學習也是我們應該要探討的"},{"start":296.584,"end":314.755,"text":"廣設高中卻未能兼顧普高跟技職的均衡發展造成了高中數量大幅增加卻傷害了技職教育我本身就是職業學校畢業的當前造成的臺灣技職體系弱化的困境技專技校院卻增加"},{"start":315.936,"end":317.097,"text":"有同學家長會的家長跟我們講"},{"start":345.774,"end":355.124,"text":"目前體制上高中轉高職學生的學分會被承認但是呢高職轉高中的一個學分時數卻不足導致"},{"start":357.915,"end":381.423,"text":"我們高中學校不被承認的學分導致這條路上很少人去走都是以重考居多當然中投區也有適性輔導轉系的一個招生但都會遇到公立學校不願意丟出名額大部分都是私立學校四處善意名額居多導致適性輔導媒合的成功機率不多"},{"start":381.943,"end":410.36,"text":"這都是我們在第一線實務上所遇到的一個狀況這就是民眾給我們實際的一個反應那部長李遠哲先生最近出了一本新書對於當年推動教改他直接說當年教改會提出的只是建議而已他既不是政府官員也不是教育部長在教改議題上一直追著他打是因為2000年政黨輪替的時候他支持民進黨看起來他覺得背黑鍋很委屈我個人認為啊"},{"start":411.661,"end":430.967,"text":"真的很遺憾教改的問題不是他支持哪一個政黨而是他現在我們面對的是政府不擅長去處理灰犀牛的一個問題我想為什麼我會這樣說因為早在民國93年陳水扁總統執政的時期監察院報告就已經糾正當時並示警當時的部長是杜正勝"},{"start":437.069,"end":456.098,"text":"擴張擴充高等教育容量雖然是教育改革總之一報告書的主張但是當那個年度近年來大專院校一直快速的改制增設導致師資水準追不上學生的一個成長大專院校大學院校"},{"start":456.718,"end":482.252,"text":"所深思比年年增高教育資源一直嚴重的稀釋教育品質惡化的一個傾向教育部雖然提出了要建立退場機制以淘汰不具競爭力的學校令鼓勵學校整合其實我們看到這些都是他當時所做的一個言論很多很多的言論包括我隨便介入幾段82學年度我國大專院校125所學生年度的人數是689.185"},{"start":485.674,"end":488.578,"text":"689185人但自92學年度學校的成長數是167所10年中整數我們增加45所大專業校成長是33點多%"},{"start":501.115,"end":523.141,"text":"我想這些都是我們在顯然提供教改人士所說的廣設高中大學的一個訴求像教育部順應快速的鬆綁造成大專學校快速的增設而我們現在就在面對這樣子的問題來做一個探討我想童年度有很多的一個數據都提出我們當時的教改建議"},{"start":524.241,"end":539.014,"text":"竟然變成了我們現在要面對的一個問題我想教育部順應教改人士的訴求雖然值得肯定但是教育資源成長有限在成長人口逐漸趨減之下我們看到高等校院"},{"start":540.031,"end":558.661,"text":"短期內極速的改制跟擴充再來提出退場機制無意識浪費社會的整體資源且引發整個社會爭議我想現在來說我剛剛為什麼說你可以提出自己的一個肺腑之言因為您目前也即將要卸任了您對於這樣子的一個亂象我們該怎麼辦"},{"start":561.381,"end":587.771,"text":"跟委員報告因為早上我們多位委員在關心我要再講當時410包含行政院組成的教改之意審議會其實當時的時空背景我也跟委員報告臺灣是在嚴格的我們說不得的那種戒嚴時期後在教育上其實是產生比較多的限制所以才有410的倡議也因為很多的教育上是比較回到標準的這種"},{"start":589.492,"end":589.512,"text":"﹚羅廷瑋"},{"start":610.763,"end":610.823,"text":"委員長李遠哲議員"},{"start":636.445,"end":649.561,"text":"所以我才會提出杜政聖所說的他當時就已經有在示警了並不是我們最近才來說事後諸葛來說這些之前的錯當時杜政聖到現在也一段時間了我想前面四個問題我剛剛有問到"},{"start":651.323,"end":672.408,"text":"警察院的報告裡面總結警察院說今日重新審視很多當年的訴求已經達成了但論及目標及效能則否我們是否能更簡單的問學生是否快樂學習我們的孩子是否已經有帶上來教育品質有沒有提升教改是否成功是否真的成功了恐怕是負面的結果能佔絕對高的一個比例分期研究"},{"start":673.248,"end":686.488,"text":"原因我們看到教育部長更迭頻繁還有政策無法持續的一貫還有教改的配套措施不夠周延趙進實施教育資源不足及數廣設校園區我想"},{"start":689.412,"end":708.977,"text":"教育是百年大忌我們都在講百年大忌所以一直在談教改教改教改改到現在必須面對是不斷調整的一個問題我就像我們剛剛前面所提到政府不擅長面對灰犀牛那少子化浪潮也是不是一天兩天的事情不是今天才少子化前人不斷的提醒就是杜政聖當時所示"},{"start":710.877,"end":736.705,"text":"監察院提出糾正但是我們的政府卻好像完全不對不去面對這個危機的到來那為何政府就是視而不見也希望教育部真的要虛心檢討教改政策的一個狀況盡早調整對策不要讓我們的孩子永遠變成教育部的白老鼠我的時間已經到了但是我要跟你講其實我對於吸引喬森人才以及台灣高教人才的流失我們都非常的關注"},{"start":737.225,"end":742.726,"text":"我自己的政策也在一直在推我們的國教希望向下延伸這是我們日後希望能夠探討的題目我們更希望教育部在這個部分能夠一起來努力最後我要提醒"},{"start":760.29,"end":774.826,"text":"部長您在這一個質詢台有答應過我不管是夜光天使的部分我希望不會因為換了部長也希望您能夠幫我再盯一下我想教育是很重要的我希望延續下去拜託您好嗎好謝謝委員謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151256","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151256","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627e729eb469ed0d744b57f63d1b53b7532c5dab72e655c1c94f6c1ccb80721074c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"10:48:18 - 11:03:41","影片長度":"00:15:23","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-12"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":923,"end_time":"2024-04-17T11:03:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:48:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":689,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（10時48分）謝謝主席，麻煩請薛部長、環境管理署顏署長跟資源循環署的賴署長。"],["主席：好，以上官員請。"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好。今天在你們的簡報第14頁有秀出了112年全國廢棄物總量3,234萬公噸，其中一般廢棄物占了38%，達到1,230萬公噸，其中59.5%的回收利用，這些數據跟本席取得一般廢棄物產生量的統計來看是非常接近的，只是我不清楚的是，你們為什麼只有提供112年的資料？因為從我取得的資料來看，我國實際上年總量從102年的733萬公噸已經膨脹到112年的1,173萬公噸，剛好整整增加了六成。如果看這個平均值，我們從102年每人每日生產的0.86公斤來看，過了10年，每人每日產生了1.38公斤，但是一般廢棄物的回收率是從102年的55%提高到112年57.6%，10年只進步了2.6%而已。本席認為這是一個非常可怕的事實，這表示說10年來，我們的一般廢棄物是不斷地在增加，所有的預算資源、政策計畫，各種一般廢棄物的減廢、減量、資源回收的作為，其實感覺幾乎好像沒有什麼成效。雖然說我們一般廢棄物的焚化占了37.18%，掩埋的部分占1.32%，似乎是有在處理，但是怎麼會減廢、減量卻越減越多，10年增加六成！即使焚化爐燒得掉，但跨縣市清運垃圾去焚化，車輛汽油、柴油的燃燒，我們這樣空氣品質不是也會變得不好嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員，我可不可以說明一下？"],["陳委員瑩：好。"],["薛部長富盛：這裡面的數據會有一些誤導，原因是因為我們一般廢棄物……"],["陳委員瑩：你是說我誤導，還是你誤導？"],["薛部長富盛：不是，就是這個結論出來的結果，我們提供了數據，但是這裡面沒有瞭解到我們在107年把一般廢棄物定義，把包括了事業員工產生的垃圾那一塊加進來，107年之前不算，所以分母就少這一塊。第二個，又外加一些活動，譬如說我們辦一些什麼嘉年華、演唱會，或者說發生颱風、發生地震，清除的垃圾……"],["陳委員瑩：所以這個加進來就會有很大的變化？"],["薛部長富盛：對，所以在我們的數據裡面，那一部分將來是在分母……"],["陳委員瑩：事業廢棄物……可是我們今天主席排的是在講一般廢棄物啊。"],["薛部長富盛：一般跟事業廢棄物，我們是兩類啦！剛剛講的那一張圖，委員要不要回到原來那張圖？左手邊一千多萬噸的那個是一般廢棄物，包括家用；右手邊是事業廢棄物，大概三分之二左右……"],["陳委員瑩：總量……"],["薛部長富盛：再前面那一張，2,004萬公噸這個是事業廢棄物，而一般廢棄物就在左手邊，我剛剛跟委員說明的，就是在107年，它整個納歸到一般廢棄物增加的量非常多，因此分母就會增加。所以當你用那時候的分母去除以我們的回收各方面，那個數值就會很小，或者你可以解釋成，事實上之前假如有把那一部分算進去一般廢棄物，之前所謂的回收率就不會到55%啦，很可能變成40%……"],["陳委員瑩：部長，我其實每次的質詢都非常優待您，都讓你做非常完整的表述，也沒有給你插話……"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員。"],["陳委員瑩：不過回到我們問題的本質，不管它的分母是大或是小，我最想請教的是，如果520之後您留任的話，有什麼具體的減量政策？"],["薛部長富盛：跟陳委員報告，我會把要做的事情提供給新任的部長，把我的一些想法跟他分享，因為施政有一貫性啦！"],["陳委員瑩：好，沒關係，那我問一下顏署長，您的看法是什麼？你會留下來吧？"],["薛部長富盛：我會留在學校。"],["陳委員瑩：什麼？"],["薛部長富盛：我會回中興大學。"],["陳委員瑩：好，署長會留、部長要回學校，那我問署長，你的看法是什麼？佛光山好玩嗎？"],["顏署長旭明：報告委員，是這樣子，整個一般事業廢棄物的部分，我們持續每年還在做各個縣市資源回收的評比，這評比的結果會做我們考核跟補助的依據，我們是相信這樣子的處理方式，可以鼓勵大家對於資源回收……"],["陳委員瑩：所以我問具體減量的政策，你就是繼續評估這樣子？"],["顏署長旭明：我們透過……"],["陳委員瑩：所以你到佛光山之後有新的啟發嗎？因為我有拜讀你們的新聞稿，你們到佛光山去，署長非常特別，他的位置旁邊還有專人坐著奉茶，現泡現奉。"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員觀察很仔細喔！"],["陳委員瑩：因為你們有發新聞稿，我就看了一下，這個真的是署長的特別待遇。我另外再請教署長，先離題問一下，請問我們這次0403地震後，你馬上隔天就派人到花東去要做什麼？"],["顏署長旭明：我們0403去是因為花蓮地區有發生地震，它的廢棄物處理上面或許需要我們去協助，而整個花蓮有提出來他們的需求，那我們經過協調……"],["陳委員瑩：那臺東，你有去嗎？"],["顏署長旭明：臺東沒有。"],["陳委員瑩：沒有派人去？"],["顏署長旭明：臺東是我們南區的同仁……"],["陳委員瑩：沒有，是這樣子，我有聽到縣府大家的一些抱怨，因為災害剛剛發生完，大家很忙、忙成一團嘛！你要收廢棄物，可以稍微讓人家喘口氣後再去啊！那個時候，人家還要接待你們耶！因為你們是長官耶！你要去拜訪人家還是要幹嘛會不會看時間？因為我想收廢棄物這個應該是稍微不緊急，不是第一天在緊急黃金時期救災的時候吧？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝陳委員的提醒，當然另外一個觀點搞不好有人也會挑戰環境部都不動。"],["陳委員瑩：對，你的動……"],["薛部長富盛：發生事情了都不去。"],["陳委員瑩：沒有，你要動，不要動得讓人家添麻煩。"],["薛部長富盛：不會，不會，我覺得應該沒有吧？"],["陳委員瑩：沒有叫你不動，但是如果去，人家還要接待的話，因為有這樣聲音傳出來……"],["薛部長富盛：喔，真的嗎？OK。"],["陳委員瑩：所以我在這裡關心了一下，你的方法可能要檢討。"],["薛部長富盛：瞭解，好。"],["陳委員瑩：好，因為今天主席排定減塑的題目，其實你們準備了很多策進的作為，當然我們一則喜、一則憂，喜的是環境部是有一些想法，而且也讓民眾跟業者從生活中去配合。例如說旅宿業已經不是提供一次性的衛生用品，便利超商也不提供吸管了，但是他們還有很多的杯子還有塑膠的杯蓋，這樣子看起來是很有限。現在看了滿街外送員，因為人力已經補充了十幾萬了，所以南來北往的外送員風塵僕僕地穿梭在大街小巷裡面，其實就是代表一次性的包裝或者塑膠袋不斷地在產生。","所以讓本席很憂心的就是現在的作法，在推動各項一次性的、減量的工作，取得的效果是非常有限，結果就越減越多，過去10年已經是這樣，那未來的10年，我們是擔心它增加的比例上可能還會又更多。我們不僅是在空污跟水污受到影響，淨零碳排的目標也很難達成，所以那這麼多的經費，到底跟民眾宣導垃圾減量的重要性跟生活中要怎麼樣的配合，大家會覺得環境部當然越來越重要，可是你們到底跟民眾的距離有沒有越來越近？所以我打上這樣的問號。因為10年增加這樣的成數，它是一個警訊啦！生活的小地方，因為禁用一次性的耗材，大部分民眾會覺得我已經做了環保，其實還是遠遠不足！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：你們今天的簡報裡面，到底哪一項跟民眾有關、需要民眾去配合？我在那邊研究了老半天，感覺上就不是很緊密的一個連結……"],["薛部長富盛：事實上，陳委員……"],["陳委員瑩：因為你們都攬到自己的身上，也攬到業者的身上，這樣很辛苦啊！"],["薛部長富盛：民眾的宣導還需要加強啦！"],["陳委員瑩：所以民眾可以再多分擔一點嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：我想要問，你們對於產生廢棄物的來源，沒有設身處地的溝通、告知，還有輔導協助民眾一起來減量，這個會有一個情形，就是你們在枝微末節一直談禁用跟限用，但也許只是民眾隨便生活中的一個忽略，可能塑膠袋又多了好幾個。你們在檢討也有看到這個啊！包括剛剛前面的委員也有提到網購的部分，而我提的是外送、外帶，像增加的這些垃圾，你們要怎麼處理？剛剛賴署長有講到一點點。"],["薛部長富盛：好，給委員報告，可以嗎？我可以跟委員簡單報告嗎？"],["陳委員瑩：可以。"],["薛部長富盛：我想源頭減量滿重要的，未來我們要讓生產一次性塑膠的業者有責任，他們要付更高的費用，對民眾來講當然是在某一個程度以價制量，然後加強宣導啦！那這個習性的改變……"],["陳委員瑩：你講到以價制量，我就忍不住要講一下，比如說我們使用了塑膠袋，商家會酌收1塊、2塊，甚至有的收到5塊，可是收了這個錢好像也沒有繳到政府，而是放進商家自己的口袋啊！有嗎？那個有嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：所以我們現在是產源的責任嘛！就是將來生產者要負責……"],["陳委員瑩：對嘛！他買這麼多塑膠袋，成本可能只有100塊，結果他的100塊、100個塑膠袋可以收更多，就變成他變相在賣塑膠袋賺錢。"],["薛部長富盛：對，所以在制度上……"],["陳委員瑩：我在這裡提供一下我最近的觀察，就是某知名電商有提供一個我覺得還不錯的方法，因為我之前遇到他們公司的高階主管，我有反映說：你們的包裝實在是多得太誇張了，主要的商品還有贈品，贈品一點點，它就另外再包，然後就再送，結果每次買一個東西，家裡就箱子一堆。但是他們現在就有提供民眾一個選擇，如果你同時訂很多筆，你願意等你的產品可以集中包裝、儘量減少包裝的話，他們可以放在同一個的箱子裡，雖然會比較慢到，但是可以退30塊錢，這樣民眾就有一個選擇。所以我覺得你們可以用一個比較積極的方式，你也可以要求……"],["薛部長富盛：對！比較正面的來……"],["陳委員瑩：你們甚至可以規定電商，要求他們提供民眾回饋，就是用回答問題的方式，每次採購大家要填寫有沒有過度包裝，這樣民眾就可以看到。你不要寫別的喔！不是說包裝好不好，而是有沒有過度包裝，你就要求要問這一題嘛！你們甚至可以說，以剛剛那個某知名電商提供民眾這樣的選擇，已經有很主動在做垃圾減量的工作，所以你們可以給它獎勵啊！"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["陳委員瑩：對不對？鼓勵多一點電商，大家都一起來學習，這是一個還不錯的方法嘛！","最後要提醒的就是，每個人家裡都有很多使用過的手機，這些到底要怎麼樣被回收？因為相關的回收機制和成效真的很值得我們去重視，必須讓民眾遵循，並兼顧到民眾的權益，因為裡面有很多元件都是可以回收再利用的……"],["薛部長富盛：是！"],["陳委員瑩：所以我希望這個部分不應該讓民眾無法取得自己應有的權益，都讓回收業者去獲利。針對手機的回收，請你們參考一下國外的做法，在2個月內提供國內外現行的比較分析資料給本席。"],["薛部長富盛：OK，謝謝陳委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝。現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時3分）","繼續開會（11時9分）"],["主席：好，我們要繼續開會，請大家回座。","接下來請牛煦庭委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","陳瑩","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃秀芳","張雅琳","洪申翰","蔡易餘","劉建國","陳冠廷","楊曜","蘇清泉"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事\n業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.14346875,"end":16.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.973468750000002,"end":20.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.53409375,"end":68.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.996593750000002,"end":31.317218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.44284375,"end":37.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.42534375000001,"end":75.17534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.05284375000001,"end":125.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.27721875,"end":135.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.05596875,"end":166.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.00909375,"end":169.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.15221875,"end":169.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.18596875,"end":169.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.20284375,"end":169.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.21971875,"end":173.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.06284375,"end":189.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.77534375000002,"end":178.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.27971875,"end":192.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.73909375000002,"end":199.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.21909375,"end":201.75471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.05846875,"end":205.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.88909375,"end":215.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.02284375000002,"end":216.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.67221875,"end":222.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.15659375,"end":222.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.81471875000003,"end":228.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.99534375000002,"end":230.00346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.61096875,"end":236.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.29784375000003,"end":238.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.96409375000002,"end":240.11159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.13284375,"end":239.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.79096875000002,"end":239.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.39846875,"end":243.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.79034375,"end":245.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.82409375,"end":244.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.30909375000002,"end":247.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.07659375000003,"end":249.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.11034375000003,"end":248.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.76409375000003,"end":250.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.51909375000002,"end":251.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.51471875000001,"end":261.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.30221875,"end":263.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.43284375,"end":267.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.26346875,"end":268.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.13659375000003,"end":272.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.29221875,"end":273.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.92909375,"end":276.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.46034375,"end":288.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.78784375000004,"end":288.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.23471875,"end":311.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.22096875,"end":297.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.32159375000003,"end":300.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.77534375000005,"end":313.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.54721875,"end":315.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.74534375,"end":316.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.43284375,"end":321.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.20846875,"end":324.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.87471875,"end":327.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.89159375,"end":326.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.37221875,"end":331.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.70909375,"end":331.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.92846875000004,"end":333.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.96596875,"end":336.04596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.73784375,"end":337.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.83471875000004,"end":339.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.47596875000005,"end":341.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.96909375,"end":345.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.44096875,"end":346.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":347.92596875000004,"end":360.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.83534375000005,"end":371.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.35284375000003,"end":375.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.19159375000004,"end":377.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.76534375,"end":380.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.27096875,"end":381.89534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.09784375000004,"end":391.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.22284375000004,"end":393.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.37846875,"end":397.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.25159375000004,"end":411.42659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.94971875000005,"end":416.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.59846875000005,"end":419.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":420.82596875,"end":436.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.37221875,"end":436.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.11034375,"end":438.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.30846875000003,"end":439.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.43909375000004,"end":441.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.87784375,"end":440.46846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.67096875000004,"end":442.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.15159375,"end":465.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.20846875,"end":457.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.55721875,"end":473.93159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.37034375,"end":481.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.19721875000005,"end":475.48409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.94721875000005,"end":483.14534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.75721875000005,"end":483.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.28034375000004,"end":483.56721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.56721875000005,"end":498.29909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.63471875000005,"end":484.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.27534375000005,"end":489.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.62034375,"end":496.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.88159375000004,"end":497.42159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.65346875000006,"end":527.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.8303437500001,"end":556.5515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.4678437499999,"end":552.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.15909375,"end":567.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.43159375,"end":572.0090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.2959687499999,"end":585.3234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.4753437500001,"end":587.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.6140937499999,"end":593.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.14909375,"end":597.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.62534375,"end":606.8390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.8897187499999,"end":606.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.09221875,"end":609.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.33221875,"end":623.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.98409375,"end":627.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.86096875,"end":633.2822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.8559687500001,"end":634.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.6615937500001,"end":638.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.3234687500001,"end":648.3347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.40346875,"end":641.9897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.19159375,"end":649.5834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.7903437500001,"end":649.1615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.43159375,"end":654.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.7140937500001,"end":651.0515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":655.2197187500001,"end":676.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.27534375,"end":688.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.80096875,"end":699.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.9890937499999,"end":705.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":701.96346875,"end":702.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":705.50721875,"end":710.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":710.85659375,"end":711.5147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":711.8015937499999,"end":712.3247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":712.8647187500001,"end":713.9953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":714.19784375,"end":715.1259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":715.36221875,"end":717.5222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":717.77534375,"end":719.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":719.73284375,"end":720.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.86346875,"end":723.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":721.9265937499999,"end":722.6015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":723.1922187499999,"end":727.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.17471875,"end":734.3803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.8359687500001,"end":743.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":743.9822187500001,"end":749.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":744.18471875,"end":745.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":746.68221875,"end":747.1884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":749.80409375,"end":751.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":750.9853437500001,"end":771.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":756.9422187499999,"end":758.0053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":759.4397187500001,"end":759.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":760.4184687500001,"end":763.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":765.53159375,"end":765.9028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":773.1928437500001,"end":783.0647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":783.6047187500001,"end":785.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":786.1528437500001,"end":816.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":817.2365937500001,"end":835.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":818.83971875,"end":819.0928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":821.1853437500001,"end":821.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":823.2947187500001,"end":824.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":836.03534375,"end":840.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":841.18221875,"end":870.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":861.88784375,"end":862.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":871.55721875,"end":895.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":871.8272187500002,"end":872.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":895.3172187500002,"end":913.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":914.04846875,"end":916.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":915.8034687500001,"end":916.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":916.88346875,"end":919.00971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.41,"end":16.003,"text":"現在主席麻煩請薛部長還有環境管理署嚴署長跟資源循環署的賴署長"},{"start":17.008,"end":22.353,"text":"陳瑩好部長好今天在你們的簡報第14頁你們有秀出了112年全國廢棄物總量3234萬公噸那其中一般廢棄物佔了38%達到了1230萬公噸其中的59.5%的回收利用那這些數據"},{"start":43.672,"end":59.743,"text":"跟本席取得一般廢棄物的這個產生量的統計來看是非常接近的那只是說我不清楚的是說你們為什麼只有提供了112年的資料因為從我取得的資料來看呢"},{"start":60.343,"end":62.745,"text":"我國實際上年總量從102年的733萬公噸已經膨脹到112年的1173萬公噸剛好整整增加了六成"},{"start":76.516,"end":95.865,"text":"如果看這個平均值我們從102年每人每日生產的0.86公斤來看過了10年每人每日生產的產生了1.38公斤但是一般廢棄物的回收率是從102年的55%提高到112年的57.6%10年只進步了2.6%而已"},{"start":105.969,"end":124.764,"text":"本席認為這是一個非常可怕的事實這表示說這10年來我們的一般廢棄物是不斷的在增加那所有的預算資源政策計劃各種的一般廢棄物的減費減量資源回收的作為其實都"},{"start":125.444,"end":131.915,"text":"感覺都好像幾乎沒有什麼成效那雖然說我們的一般這個廢棄物呢它的這個焚化佔了37.18%"},{"start":137.099,"end":166.38,"text":"那掩埋的部分占1.32%似乎是有在處理了但是說怎麼會在減費減量卻越減越多那10年增加6成即使焚化爐燒的掉那跨線式的清運垃圾去焚化那車輛的汽油柴油的燃燒那我們這樣空氣品質不是也會變得不好嗎"},{"start":167.18,"end":192.063,"text":"陳委員我可不可以說明一下就是說這裡面的數據會有一點誤導原因是因為我們一般廢棄物你是說我誤導還是你誤導就是說這個結論出來的結果我們提供的數據但是這裡面沒有了解到我們在107年把一般廢棄物定義包括了事業"},{"start":193.763,"end":216.971,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":217.211,"end":242.392,"text":"所以那一部分有啊,我們的數據裡面那一部分那一部分將來是在分母事業廢棄物可是我們今天主席排的是在講那個啊一般廢棄物啊事業廢棄物我們是兩類啦剛剛講的那一張圖你要不要回到原來那一張圖左手邊一千多萬噸的那個是一般廢棄物包括家用嘛齁那右手邊是事業廢棄物啦"},{"start":244.132,"end":251.589,"text":"市委會見大概這個三分之二左右兩沒有在前面那一張在前面那一張好"},{"start":252.811,"end":275.976,"text":"兩千零四萬公噸這個是事業廢棄物嘛那一般廢棄物就左手邊那我剛剛給委員說明的就是說在107年他整個納歸到一般廢棄物的增加的量非常多所以分母就會增加所以當你用那時候的分母去除以我們的回收各方面那那個數值就很小"},{"start":276.596,"end":301.858,"text":"或者你可以解釋成說事實上之前假如有把那部分算進去一般廢棄物那之前的所謂的回收率就不會到55啦很可能變成40部長我其實也都每次的質詢我都非常優待您喔都讓你做非常完整的一個表述也沒有給你插話不過回到這個我們問題的本質不管它的分母是大"},{"start":302.438,"end":330.657,"text":"或是小我其實想要我最想請教的是如果520之後您留任的話有什麼具體的減量政策給陳瑩報告我會把要做的事情提供給新任的部長把我的一些想法跟他分享因為施政他有一貫性沒關係那我問一下嚴署長您的看法是什麼"},{"start":332.038,"end":345.112,"text":"你會留下來吧?我會留在學校。好,署長會留,部長要回學校。好,那我問署長你的看法是什麼?福光山好玩嗎?"},{"start":348.487,"end":373.88,"text":"報告委員是這樣子那個整個一般社會棄物的部分持續上面我們每年還在做各個縣市的資源回收的評比那這評比的結果會做我們考核跟補助的依據我們是相信這樣子的一個處理方式可以鼓勵大家對於資源回收所以我問的具體減量的政策就是你繼續評估這樣子"},{"start":377.323,"end":390.988,"text":"所以你到佛光山之後有新的啟發嗎?因為我有拜讀你們的新聞稿,你們到佛光山去,署長非常特別,他的位置旁邊還有專人做的縫茶,現泡現縫。"},{"start":396.342,"end":416.898,"text":"陳瑩觀察很仔細因為你們放在新聞稿我就看了一下這個署長的特別待遇那我另外再請教署長這個是先離題問一下請問那個就是我們這次0403地震後的馬上你隔天就派人到這個花東要去做什麼就是我們"},{"start":420.899,"end":421.199,"text":"臺東你有去嗎?"},{"start":437.271,"end":464.718,"text":"台東沒有?沒有派人去沒有是這樣子啦我有聽到那個縣府的一些就是大報因為發生剛才發生完大家很忙忙成一團嘛啊你要收廢棄物你可以稍微讓人家喘口氣你再去啊你那個時候人家還要接待你們呢因為你們是長官欸你要去拜訪人家還是你要什麼你會不會看時間"},{"start":466.821,"end":480.83,"text":"因為我想這個說這個廢棄物這個應該是比較稍微不是第一天在緊急這個黃金時期救災的時候吧好謝謝陳瑩的提醒阿當然另外一個觀點搞不好有人也會挑戰說環境部都不動"},{"start":482.157,"end":497.58,"text":"對,你的動,你要動的不要讓人家添麻煩,沒有叫你不動,但是如果去人家還要接待的話,因為有這樣的聲音傳出來,所以我在這裡關心了一下,所以你的方法可能要檢討。"},{"start":499.401,"end":524.849,"text":"因為今天主席排定這個檢討的題目其實你們準備了很多這個策進的作為當然我們一方面一則喜一則憂喜的就是說環境部是有一些想法而且也讓民眾跟業者從生活中去配合例如說這個旅宿業已經不是提供一次性的衛生用品"},{"start":525.009,"end":553.78,"text":"陳瑩．"},{"start":554.22,"end":571.649,"text":"的在產生所以讓本席很憂心的就是說現在的做法在推動各項一次性的減量的這個工作那取得效果是非常有限那結果他就越減越多過去10年已經是這樣那未來的10年"},{"start":572.409,"end":587.108,"text":"就是說我們是擔心說它增加的可能這個比例上還會有更多所以我們不僅是在這個空污跟水污受到影響那在這個淨零碳排的目標也很難達成那所以就是說那這麼多的經費"},{"start":589.069,"end":608.182,"text":"到底這個跟民眾宣導的部分垃圾減量的這個重要性跟這個生活中要怎麼樣的配合就是說大家會覺得說環境部就是當然越來越重要可是離民眾你們到底有跟民眾的距離有沒有越來越近所以我打上這樣的問號因為這個是"},{"start":610.464,"end":610.664,"text":"我是..."},{"start":635.748,"end":648.127,"text":"在那邊研究了老半天感覺上就是不是很緊密的一個連結因為你們都攬到自己的身上也攬到業者的身上嘛這樣很辛苦啊民眾可以再多分擔一點嘛"},{"start":651.172,"end":676.083,"text":"那因為我想要問說對於你們這個你們對於這個產生廢棄物的來源沒有設身處地的溝通告知還有輔導協助民眾一起來減量那這個會有一個情形就是說你們在滋味末節的在那裡一直談禁用跟限用那只是說那民眾隨便一個生活中的一個忽略啦那可能塑膠袋又多了好幾個"},{"start":678.165,"end":695.179,"text":"你們在檢討也有看到這個包括剛剛前面的委員也有提到網購的部分我提的是外售外帶這些增加的垃圾你們要怎麼處理剛剛賴署長有講到一點點"},{"start":700.011,"end":719.064,"text":"好給委員報告可以嗎我可以稍微簡單報告我想源頭減量蠻重要的啦齁那未來我們要對生產一次性塑膠的這個業者要他們有責任他要付更高的費用那對民眾來講當然就是說在某個程度以價質量然後"},{"start":720.945,"end":747.993,"text":"加強宣導那這個習性的改變講到這個宜家質量我就忍不住要講一下我們比如說去使用了塑膠袋他們會著收一塊兩塊甚至有人收到五塊錢可是收了這個錢這個錢好像也沒有繳到政府是放到那個商家自己的口袋啊所以我們接下來就產源的責任就是說你將來生產者"},{"start":751.194,"end":768.245,"text":"對嘛,他的成本他買這麼多塑膠袋他成本可能只有一百塊結果他的一百塊一百個塑膠袋他可以收更多這是變成他變相在賣塑膠賺錢那我在這裡我提供一下我最近的觀察就是某知名這個電商"},{"start":773.217,"end":801.854,"text":"他們有提供一個我覺得還不錯的方法因為我之前遇到他們公司的這個高階主管我有反應我說你們的這個包裝實在是多得太誇張了主要的商品還有贈品贈品一點點他就另外再包然後就再送結果每次買一個東西家裡箱子一堆但是現在他們就有提供民眾一個選擇如果你同時訂很多筆"},{"start":803.275,"end":815.209,"text":"你願意等你的產品可以他們集中包裝盡量減少那個包裝的時候都放在同一個箱子裡那雖然會比較慢到但是你可以退30塊錢"},{"start":817.487,"end":834.621,"text":"這個民眾就有一個選擇那我覺得你們可以用一個比較積極的方式你也可以要求你們甚至可以規定電商就是說要求他們要提供一個那個叫做什麼也不是問卷就是民眾的一個回饋我沒有回答問題嗎"},{"start":836.109,"end":856.369,"text":"每一次的採購大家填寫有沒有過度包裝好這個民眾就可以看到嘛你不要寫別的不是說包裝好不好喔是有沒有過度包裝你就要求要問這一題嘛那你們甚至可以說以剛剛那某知名店商他們提供了民眾這樣的選擇在"},{"start":857.97,"end":872.631,"text":"已經有很主動的在做這個垃圾減量的部分那你們可以給他獎勵啊鼓勵多一點電商大家都一起來學習這是一個還不錯的方法嘛所以就是要提醒跟請教就是說"},{"start":873.953,"end":894.687,"text":"還有最後提醒的就是說每個人家裡都有很多使用過的手機嘛那到底他們怎麼樣被回收因為這個回收機制跟成效是真的很值得我們去重視那讓民眾就是說遵循而且兼顧到民眾的權益那因為裡面有很多的元件都是可以回收再利用的所以我希望這個部分"},{"start":895.467,"end":897.029,"text":"好,謝謝,我們現在休息五分鐘"}]}},{"id":"151255","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151255","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016273d8ed8a560734d85b57f63d1b53b7532c5dab72e655c1c94db1f3aab1f5467a15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"10:37:32 - 10:48:13","影片長度":"00:10:41","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-12"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":641,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:48:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:37:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":660,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（10時37分）主席好，有請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：薛部長好。今天跟您討論兩個部分，因為環境部跟整個環境的維護或者是保護環境是非常有關係的，季節性的疾病，其實大家也非常地關心，也很擔心，尤其在登革熱防治的部分；第二部分就會跟部長討論一下限塑推動有沒有碰到什麼瓶頸。","我們先看一下登革熱防治環境清理的部分，其實過去這8年來蔡總統政府推動了2050淨零排放的政策落實，針對整個登革熱疫情的部分也曾經有得到很好的成效，我們可以看得出來，過去8年來其實有很好的成績，在2016年到2019年，那個時候登革熱的病例每一年只有在1,000人以下；到了2020年到2022年甚至是百人以下；可是比較可惜，去年就開始又進入另外一個高峰期；今年到目前為止，已經有205人被確定是罹患登革熱，同時在金門也出現了第一個病例，我們非常非常地擔心。我們也看到其實過去這幾年來已經有累積8萬以上的個案在臺灣，如果是首次發生都還好，萬一是第二次發生登革熱的話，事實上他會出現一些出血熱，導致生命上的風險，所以我們其實很希望能夠在這部分再多加強，環境部當然也是一個很重要的主責的部門。其實我們也瞭解今年到目前為止，已經投注了3,932萬的預算經費在處理登革熱相關的這些防治，這部分真的是非常謝謝環境部的努力，我們看到各個縣市其實都投入了相當多的經費來補助地方政府進行這些相關的工作，以防止登革熱持續地肆虐，這部分真的非常值得肯定。","那到底高峰期什麼時候會出現？當然我們知道現在才初夏，所以應該會到8月、9月，甚至到時候會更高，這部分環境部有做哪一些努力的方向嗎？除了我們所看到的部分以外。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝王委員，王委員是醫師，你對登革熱的防治相當地瞭解，你剛剛提到我去年8月22號上任，結果我們9月份就馬上跟陳建仁院長到臺南去，因為臺南那時候情況很嚴重、嚴峻，今年看起來好像搞不好會更……根據國外的情況，巴西還是哪裡，他們南美洲發生的情況，可能會更嚴重，所以我們從今年2月就開始跟各縣市環保局來強化防治登革熱的精進措施，大概有將近十項，當然不外乎是整個環境的清潔打掃，不希望有積水的容器等等，這些工作大概有十項，我想我就不一一讀出來。","另外，我們在3月25到4月12號也辦理登革熱孳清大動員的計畫，同樣也是跟各地方的環保局，環境的清潔真的很重要，關於我們跟衛福部的分工，我們有一個平臺，都是次長級的，隨時都有保持聯絡，還有包括環管署，這個部分他們都有密切地聯繫，我們基本上真的是戰戰兢兢，因為根據去年的情況。這個原因也很可能跟氣候變遷有關，臺灣現在這種氣候變遷一下子很熱、一下子很冷，然後一下子乾旱、一下子又下雨，所以氣候的變遷可能也會造成孳生源傳遞的影響，所以真的需要全民來動員，這一塊衛福部跟環境部現在也都有持續地在關注當中。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝部長剛剛的回復。我們看剛剛那一張其實可以發現在2014年到2015年是一個高峰期，中間可能經過大家非常努力地去清理環境，很注重個人在一些生活習慣或者是各方面的改善，的確得到非常大的進步。在過去這兩、三年的疫情期間也因為有相關的保護措施，所以這個控制得非常好，可是去年又變得很嚴重，我們很擔心像剛剛部長所提到的，也許今年、也許明年又是另外一個高峰期，所以我們必須要有更好的思維來做這件事情。","預算的部分，可能去年還沒有警覺到今年會這麼嚴重或者去年會這麼嚴重，所以我們看到今年經費的部分編列2,000萬，可是剛剛發現已經用到3,900萬，現在還沒有到真正的流行期，夏天也容易有梅雨，再過來又是颱風季節，相對整個環境的影響可能會更大，這部分的預算到時候如果真的無法到位或者是無法這麼寬列的話，那會有什麼樣的因應措施嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：給王委員報告，假如說到時候這個情況真的很危急，而且環境部已經把我們內部可以調動的經費也已使用完時，我想我們就會跟行政院反映，我相信主計總處也應該會全力來支持，因為這是很緊急的事件，過去整個運作模式大概是這樣子。部裡可以調度的經費我們先來使用，假如有需要、超出我們當初的規劃，就會向行政院請求。"],["王委員正旭：未雨綢繆總是比事到臨頭會比較好作為。"],["薛部長富盛：是，謝謝王委員的提醒。"],["王委員正旭：剛剛部長有提到跟衛福部的次長們都有緊密的連結，我們看到媒體所刊登出來大部分都是地方政府也很用心地在執行這些登革熱的防治行動，中央部會在宣導的方面不曉得有沒有更積極讓全臺灣的民眾知道，尤其是在高風險的這幾個縣市，透過比較屬於中央層級的這些宣導，讓民眾能夠更配合？"],["薛部長富盛：我想我們是善用各種多元的媒體去做宣導，譬如說包括去年除了行政院長也親自去視察，我個人上任沒多久後，光是去年去臺南大概就跑了四、五次，也是親自跟臺南市環保局、跟民眾來瞭解，也去做對談，希望大家能夠共同提高警覺，共同解決病媒蚊孳生的環境清潔議題，我們會持續來努力。"],["王委員正旭：好，那就麻煩部長，因為這個對國民的健康還是有很大的影響。"],["薛部長富盛：是，很重要。"],["王委員正旭：限塑的部分，我想早上透過部長的報告，也瞭解你們非常地努力，電商網購的包材必須要避免過度的包裝。"],["薛部長富盛：是，這個……"],["王委員正旭：這個是非常、非常重要，尤其是小型的、1公斤以下的這些包裝，因為它的重量比值不合格率高到七成，表示越小的這些在包裝上面更難避免，這部分有沒有比較好的對策來減少這些小型重量的相關網購商品？"],["薛部長富盛：我請我們賴署長來稍微回答一下。"],["賴署長瑩瑩：我們會持續推動循環箱、袋，另外在法令部分，已經有對包裝比做一些限制，這邊會持續來推動。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。最後是有關的醫療院所使用一次性餐具的部分，根據廢棄物清理法第二十一條的規定，公告事項中限制使用的對象，那時候是以公部門作為限塑的對象，看到公立醫療院所是需要被要求的，我們不知道為什麼那時候沒有把大型的私立醫院或者是私人機構納進來，這部分有什麼補強措施嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝王委員提醒，這個的確是一個漏洞，我覺得好像不太合理，因為醫院現在經營也很困難，反而醫院裡面的餐飲是他們大宗收入的地方，所以那一塊我們……"],["王委員正旭：醫院美食街在非一次性餐具的部分，當然它同時要涉及到感控的問題，不過我相信透過大家的努力，應該可以讓臺灣在環境保護的部分更為加強。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝王委員。"],["王委員正旭：沒問題，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","接下來請陳瑩委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","陳瑩","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃秀芳","張雅琳","洪申翰","蔡易餘","劉建國","陳冠廷","楊曜","蘇清泉"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事\n業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.227843750000002,"end":13.497218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.72096875,"end":13.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.26034375,"end":17.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.96909375,"end":51.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.58221875,"end":37.071593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.23159375,"end":39.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.330968750000004,"end":80.45721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.23346875,"end":83.59596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.88284375,"end":85.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.55346875000001,"end":89.11409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.60346875,"end":97.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.15909375000001,"end":111.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.51346875,"end":99.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.68846875000001,"end":138.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.21596875,"end":157.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.87659375,"end":151.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.88034375,"end":154.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.24659375000002,"end":175.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.86909375000002,"end":172.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.19346875000002,"end":175.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.47596875000002,"end":193.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.46659375000002,"end":182.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.86159375000003,"end":194.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.46471875,"end":195.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.10159375,"end":203.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.69534375,"end":213.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.10346875000002,"end":211.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.75284375,"end":215.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.87909375,"end":217.29659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.61721875,"end":219.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.35534375,"end":221.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.15659375,"end":224.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.63721875000002,"end":226.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.17284375000003,"end":227.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.02909375000002,"end":228.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.36221875,"end":235.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.97721875000002,"end":237.17534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.49596875,"end":242.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.55846875,"end":244.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.43159375000002,"end":247.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.45221875000001,"end":247.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.19471875000002,"end":249.81471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.93284375000002,"end":252.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.48096875000002,"end":255.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.65346875000003,"end":257.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.03284375000004,"end":259.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.38284375,"end":261.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.23471875,"end":263.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.83784375,"end":266.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.85846875000004,"end":269.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.27159375,"end":271.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.83659375,"end":273.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.49034375,"end":278.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.37971875,"end":280.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.83096875,"end":281.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.16409375,"end":283.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.13846875,"end":288.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.98159375,"end":290.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.66909375,"end":293.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.74034375,"end":295.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.71471875000003,"end":299.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.54534375000003,"end":300.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.45659375,"end":302.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.17346875000004,"end":304.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.33346875,"end":308.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.62409375000004,"end":309.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.70409375,"end":312.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.67409375,"end":314.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.44159375000004,"end":316.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.58909375,"end":363.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.35534375000003,"end":327.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.03471875,"end":354.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.23159375,"end":402.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.53346875000005,"end":406.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.71846875,"end":408.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.96284375000005,"end":412.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.81034375,"end":416.06721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.30346875000004,"end":417.29909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.67034375000003,"end":418.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.13846875,"end":422.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.18846875,"end":424.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.06159375000004,"end":427.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.03159375,"end":429.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.38159375000004,"end":431.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.14909375,"end":434.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.96721875000003,"end":439.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.28721875,"end":478.96034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.81409375000004,"end":445.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.41596875000005,"end":481.77846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.14971875000003,"end":483.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.48284375000003,"end":485.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.38971875000004,"end":488.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.93346875000003,"end":493.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.38846875,"end":498.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.24846875000003,"end":500.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.45909375,"end":503.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.73284375000003,"end":505.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.17971875,"end":509.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.62221875000006,"end":511.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.74846875000003,"end":514.8872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.95471875,"end":562.1372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.25846875,"end":516.0009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.9540937500001,"end":519.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.55721875,"end":521.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.59784375,"end":531.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.4709687500001,"end":532.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.2765937500001,"end":534.3272187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.39471875,"end":534.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.0447187500001,"end":562.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.1372187500001,"end":562.1709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.22159375,"end":572.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.23846875,"end":562.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.5828437499999,"end":603.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.22471875,"end":596.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.27534375,"end":596.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.8015937499999,"end":606.7209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.9740937500001,"end":616.9978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":614.7197187500001,"end":615.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":617.50409375,"end":633.3159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.6853437500001,"end":619.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.1147187500001,"end":625.7390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.5522187500001,"end":635.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.6028437500001,"end":634.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.78409375,"end":634.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":634.80096875,"end":635.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.1215937500001,"end":635.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.17221875,"end":635.4084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.48409375,"end":638.9353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.2009687500001,"end":640.97721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.606,"end":11.875,"text":"主席好也請薛部長部長請"},{"start":17.281,"end":39.227,"text":"好王委員好徐部長好今天跟您來討論兩個部分因為環境部跟這個整個環境的維護或者是保護環境是非常有關係的那季節性的疾病其實大家也非常的關心也很擔心尤其在登革熱的房子的部分"},{"start":40.147,"end":50.715,"text":"第二部分就會跟部長來討論一下限塑推動有沒有碰到什麼瓶頸那我們先看一下這個登革熱的防治的環境清理的部分"},{"start":51.631,"end":75.671,"text":"其實過去這8年來蔡總統政府推動了2050近年排放的政策落實其實也針對於整個疫情的部分其實也曾經有得到很好的成效我們可以看得出來過去8年來其實有很好的成績"},{"start":76.411,"end":96.449,"text":"在2016年到2019年那個時候德國熱的病例每一年只有在1000人以下那到了2020年到2022年甚至是百人以下可是比較可惜去年就開始又進入另外一個高峰期那今年到目前為止已經有205人"},{"start":98.231,"end":119.261,"text":"已經被確定他是一般的登革日同時在金門也出現了第一例的病例這個我們非常非常的擔心這一部分我們也看到其實過去這幾年來已經有累積八萬以上的個案在臺灣他如果是首次發生都還好"},{"start":120.061,"end":139.362,"text":"萬一是第二次發生登革熱的話事實上它會出現一些出血熱導致生命上的一個風險所以我們其實很希望能夠在這部分能夠再多加強環境部當然也是具有一個很重要的主責的一個部門"},{"start":140.823,"end":157.651,"text":"其實我們也了解今年到目前為止已經投注了3932萬的預算經費在處理登革熱相關的這些防治這部分真的是非常謝謝環境部在這邊的努力"},{"start":159.318,"end":185.979,"text":"我們看到就是各個縣市呢其實都投入了相當多的經費來補助地方政府進行這些相關的工作來防止這個登革日持續的室內這部分真的非常值得肯定那到底高峰期什麼時候會出現當然我們知道現在才初夏嘛所以應該會到8月9月甚至到時候會更高"},{"start":186.919,"end":214.988,"text":"這部分環境部有做哪一些努力的方向嗎?除了我們所看到的部分以外。好,謝謝黃委員。事實上,黃委員是醫師,你對登革日的防治事實上相當的了解。那你剛剛提到去年事實上我8月22日上任,結果我們9月份就跟陳建仁院長馬上到台南去,因為台南那時候情況很嚴重,很嚴峻。那今年看起來好像搞不好會更"},{"start":216.609,"end":236.931,"text":"國外的情況巴西還是哪裡他們南美洲發生的那個情況可能會更嚴重所以我們從這個今年二月份就開始跟各縣市環保局來強化這個防治登革熱的經濟措施大概有將近10項那當然不外乎就是整個環境的"},{"start":237.432,"end":241.393,"text":"在3月25日至4月12日也辦理登革熱知青大動源的計畫也是同樣跟各地方的環保其實就是說對環境的"},{"start":263.9,"end":263.92,"text":"臺灣現在這種"},{"start":289.053,"end":289.733,"text":"現在也都有持續的在關注當中。"},{"start":317.866,"end":340.985,"text":"謝謝部長剛剛的回覆我們看剛剛那一張其實可以發現在2014年到2015年是一個高峰期那中間可能經過大家非常努力的去清理環境那很注重個人在一些生活習慣或者是各方面的改善的確得到非常大的進步那當然過去"},{"start":341.945,"end":362.571,"text":"兩三年的疫情期間也因為有相關的保護措施所以這個疫情就顯得相當的控制得非常好可是到去年又變得很嚴重我們很擔心啦擔心像剛剛部長所提到的也許今年也許明年又是另外一個高峰期所以我們必須要有更好的思維來做這個事情"},{"start":363.892,"end":384.231,"text":"預算的部分因為可能去年還沒有警覺到今年會這麼嚴重或者去年會這麼嚴重所以其實我們看到這個經費的部分今年編列的是2000萬可是剛剛已經發現用到3900萬那現在還沒有到真正的流行期"},{"start":385.693,"end":399.27,"text":"夏天也容易有梅雨那再過來又是颱風季節相對整個環境的影響可能會更大那這部分這個預算到時候如果真的無法到位或者是無法這麼寬的邊內的話那會有什麼樣的因應措施嗎"},{"start":403.254,"end":403.655,"text":"王正旭"},{"start":417.702,"end":417.722,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":451.072,"end":463.939,"text":"市長們其實都有很緊密的連結我們看到媒體所刊登出來大部分都是地方政府也很用心的在執行這些登革熱的防制行動那中央部會不曉得在宣導"},{"start":464.779,"end":478.657,"text":"的方面有沒有更積極讓全台灣的民眾知道尤其是在高風險的這幾個縣市在透過比較屬於中央層級的這些宣導讓民眾可以更能夠配合"},{"start":479.485,"end":497.863,"text":"我想我們是善用各種多元的媒體去做宣導當然譬如說包括去年除了行政院長也親自去視察我個人也去台南光上任沒多久去台南去年大概就跑了四五次"},{"start":498.523,"end":510.048,"text":"也是親自跟台南市環保局、跟民眾來瞭解也去做對談那希望能夠大家共同提高警戒來共同解決這個並沒有人資深環境清潔的議題"},{"start":513.71,"end":537.421,"text":"我們會持續來努力好 那就麻煩部長因為這個對國民的健康還是有很重要的影響那限塑的部分我想早上透過部長的報告也了解非常的努力那電商網購這個包材真的必須要避免過度的包裝這個是非常非常重要那尤其是小型的一公斤以下的"},{"start":538.301,"end":559.229,"text":"這些包裝因為它的重量比值不合格率高到七成表示說這個越小的這些在包裝上面它更難避免那這部分有沒有比較好的對策來減少這個小型重量的這些相關的網購商品"},{"start":560.089,"end":562.591,"text":"最後就是有關於醫療院所一次性的餐具使用的部分我們看到就是根據廢棄物清理法第21條的規定裡面"},{"start":583.384,"end":603.235,"text":"公告事項限制使用的對象那時候以公部門作為一個限塑的對象也看到公立醫療院所是需要被要求的我們不知道為什麼那時候沒有把大型的私立醫院或者是私人機構納進來那這一步未來有什麼補強措施嗎?"},{"start":603.834,"end":631.566,"text":"好 謝謝王委員提醒這個的確是一個漏洞我覺得好像不太合理因為醫院現在經營也很困難反而這些餐飲醫院裡面的餐飲也是他們大宗收拾的地方所以那一塊反而對所以這個醫院的美食街真的在非自信的餐具的部分當然它同時要涉及到這個感況的問題對我相信透過大家的努力應該可以讓臺灣在環境保護的部分可以更為加強好"},{"start":633.607,"end":634.068,"text":"王正旭"}]}},{"id":"151254","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151254","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f0162791b76e5723a8b1eaf65493343f37da33c5dab72e655c1c94bbaac45826d34c475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"10:47:46 - 10:57:47","影片長度":"00:10:01","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員黃健豪等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條及第二百八十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（七）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（九）、（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":601,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:57:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:47:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":752,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（10時48分）謝謝主席。我們請法務部蔡次長跟衛福部的郭副司長。"],["主席：好，請蔡次長、郭副司長。"],["陳委員俊宇：首先我想針對衛福部的部分，今天我們要審查刑法中有關兒少凌虐的相關條文，在過去這段時間，我們從新聞媒體上都能看到重大的兒虐事件層出不窮，有些孩子因此身心受創，更有些孩子是來不及長大，在近5年內就有103個孩子遭到受虐致死，本席對於這些孩子的遭遇感到非常地痛心。從衛福部所提供的資料來看，近幾年兒少受虐的人數居高不下，每年都在1萬人以上，在衛福部的書面報告中也有寫到，人數會逐年增加是因為衛福部所推動的強化社會安全網計畫積極地發掘潛在案件，並落實通報，導致數據逐年上升。我想我們社會安全網當然是要積極推動，但不應該作為人數增加的主因，請教衛福部，除了積極通報所增加的案件，還有什麼樣的原因會導致受虐人數居高不下？"],["郭副司長彩榕：謝謝委員。我們去看了這些通報的案件，其實大多數都是因為父母親缺乏親職的教育職能；第二個原因是，夫妻之間可能有一些親密關係的失調，所以會對孩子施虐；還有一些原因，可能是經濟的因素，或者是施虐者有酗酒或藥物濫用，或者是有精神方面的疾病等等，大概有這些問題，所以原因是非常、非常多元跟複雜的。"],["陳委員俊宇：我們就這些問題有沒有辦法再把這個人數向下壓？有沒有可能？"],["郭副司長彩榕：就如同委員所說，我們對於兒虐是零容忍的，所以不只是身體上的傷害、不只是凌虐，包括對於兒少的精神暴力，我們認為這都屬於兒少保護的一環，所以我們希望能夠把這個服務向前延伸，如果發現兒少有這些被不當對待的情況，希望都能夠進到我們的服務系統裡面，我們對於每一個案件，會針對他所面對的問題跟需求，提供個別、多樣性的家庭支持服務。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。就刑法第二百八十六條，在5年前也就是2019年曾經修法過，當時的修正不只是擴大適用對象，也設立最低6個月的有期徒刑，對於致人於死的也另有刑責。相信在前次的修法當時，也是希望能夠透過加重刑責來嚇阻犯罪，但是經過了這5年，是不是嚇阻的效果不如預期？我想請問，就衛福部的角度來看，再加重刑責能否有效減少兒虐事件？"],["郭副司長彩榕：就如同剛剛所說，兒虐每年通報這麼多件，多數案件都不是屬於凌虐致死的案件，所以針對凌虐致死要不要再加重刑責，一方面我們是尊重立法院這邊還有主管機關的權責，只是這個部分可能很難直接因應、回應到我們剛剛所提到每年通報的這麼多案件，因為其實多數案件可能並不是凌虐致死的樣態。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。我想對於衛福部的職權來說，對刑責也不好發表相關意見，本席還是希望除了檢討法律之外，也請衛福部能夠詳實地檢討社會安全網，既然已經在推動了，是不是對推動的政策可以更加細部地來瞭解，我們希望能夠接住每一個需要幫助的孩子，防止悲劇一再發生，這個部分再請衛福部積極、有效地來防止。"],["郭副司長彩榕：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：接下來我想請教蔡次長，我們看到在審查的這個草案，幾乎都是針對刑責加重，我想這是直觀，也是立意良善，可能也是我們社會所期待的方向，對於這些凌虐兒童的案件，我們希望透過更嚴謹的法律來遏止犯罪的發生，也積極保護這些兒童跟少年。不過在這裡我想先就一件事情來做討論，即便我們法條刑責訂定得重，法官也不一定判得重，也就是說沒有多少案件能夠判到最高的刑責。我想請教次長，刑法第二百八十六條在2019年修法過後，虐童案件最重判多久？絕大多數的案件又判多久？因為剛剛次長您有回復起訴了114件，經過判決有罪的只有100人，等同剛剛我們說的，1年大概超過1萬件，這百分之一的落差到底在哪裡？是不是可以請次長回復一下。"],["蔡次長碧仲：確實近五年來，從111年開始只有兩件是判三年以上五年以下的，112年有三件判三年以上五年未滿，所以在修法之後，很顯然地司法院在相關案件的量刑上面就有因應相應的重刑。但這樣的刑度在委員跟老百姓看來是不夠的，這不是因為修法不足，因為之前只要致重傷就是五年以上、十二年以下，所以既然有五年以上、十二年以下，我相信這兩件既然能夠判到三年、五年，為什麼不可以判個十年？我們的法定刑就有五年以上，十二年以下，法官根據108年的修法就可以判十年，為什麼不判十年？所以這個不是加重不加重的問題，而是法官敢不敢下手！所以量刑的基準一定要從中間──也就是五年以上、十二年以下，他不可以再判五年，最起碼要判八年、九年，最起碼！如果是這樣的話，就不勞煩立法院每次都要為了這個事情一再地、不斷地加重，所以徒法不足以自行。","有關虐童剛剛衛福部也講到，他們看到大多數的案件都是因為錯愛發生的，父母親虐童不是自己認為不愛他去凌虐他，一些情侶不是因為不愛他去凌虐他，是錯愛！把愛自己的當作是愛他的小孩，認為這個小孩不符自己所需就去凌虐他，所以這些事情都不是靠法律重刑就可以來遏阻，這是靠教育、靠親情、靠對愛的一個認知，是真愛還是錯愛，所以這些虐兒事件不管輕重都是錯愛造成的，如果這些事情沒有調整大人的心理狀態，再怎麼樣判死也都沒有意義。所以我認為各機關……","當然立法院對於可憐的小孩子來加重是符合老百姓的需要，依照年齡做不同的層次化處理，我們是認同的。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，我想這個問題所在是，法官在判決的部分應該要嚴守法律，但這個判決結果不一定能符合社會期待，也會導致民眾對於司法的不信任，剛剛次長大概回復這些，我也希望法務部應該對於這個問題要嚴加把關，希望能夠讓這些被虐待的孩童還有相關案件能夠有比較妥善的處理。"],["蔡次長碧仲：有關不符合民意所需的，我們檢察官幾乎都上訴，但是量刑把持在法官的手上，我認為法官的量刑如果能夠真正從法定刑的中間往上、往下調，我相信可以解決大半的問題，謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，這我們期待啦，以上。"],["主席：謝謝。稍後於傅委員崐萁詢答之後，依先前宣告處理臨時提案。","接下來請傅委員崐萁進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-13","speakers":["吳宗憲","傅崐萁","廖偉翔","王育敏","徐欣瑩","陳超明","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","黃國昌","翁曉玲","黃健豪"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員徐巧芯等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員廖偉翔等19人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等20\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八\n十六條及第二百八十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員柯志恩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)\n委員陳超明等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.28409375000000003,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.77471875,"end":28.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.21221875,"end":29.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.07596875,"end":36.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.72971875,"end":38.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.67034375,"end":50.909093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.22971875,"end":56.359718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.64659375,"end":67.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.47596875,"end":72.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.01096875,"end":98.98596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.34034375,"end":107.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.59221875,"end":118.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.52284375,"end":120.90659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.22721875,"end":129.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.78284375,"end":149.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.89784375000002,"end":161.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.97596875000002,"end":168.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.57846875,"end":205.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.85534375,"end":206.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.46284375000002,"end":223.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.04659375000003,"end":225.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.59909375,"end":227.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.74221875,"end":234.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.93096875,"end":239.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.80784375000002,"end":242.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.41909375,"end":247.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.54909375000003,"end":281.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.01221875000005,"end":302.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.85284375000003,"end":315.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.81284375,"end":335.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.59034375000005,"end":340.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.99034375,"end":353.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.61284375,"end":358.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.15221875000003,"end":367.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.00721875000005,"end":369.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.03221875,"end":371.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.21346875,"end":371.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.20471875000004,"end":373.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.25096875,"end":380.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.81534375,"end":396.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.88471875000005,"end":396.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.89721875000004,"end":397.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.72409375,"end":397.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.68596875000003,"end":398.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.97284375000004,"end":399.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.79534375000003,"end":401.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.43221875,"end":405.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.80721875,"end":409.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.83596875,"end":416.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.82659375000003,"end":416.87721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.31159375000004,"end":419.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.94846875,"end":424.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":425.21346875,"end":425.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.34409375,"end":427.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.60971875,"end":428.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.76971875000004,"end":431.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.46971875,"end":436.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.68409375000005,"end":441.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.73409375000006,"end":447.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.34909375,"end":453.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.46721875000003,"end":448.51784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.88409375000003,"end":455.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.68971875000005,"end":458.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.50784375,"end":467.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.21096875,"end":471.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.51846875,"end":472.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":473.23971875,"end":475.51784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.85534375000003,"end":478.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.99409375000005,"end":485.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.91284375000004,"end":487.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.81971875000005,"end":490.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.02596875,"end":492.88221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.35471875,"end":494.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.56534375,"end":498.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.54784375,"end":503.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.39096875,"end":504.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.52159375,"end":517.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":517.62096875,"end":526.1597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":526.64909375,"end":530.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.9522187499999,"end":546.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.03846875,"end":546.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.78096875,"end":546.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.7978437500001,"end":547.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.32096875,"end":556.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.2309687500001,"end":575.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.68784375,"end":581.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.8303437500001,"end":591.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":592.29284375,"end":594.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.3515937500001,"end":594.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.99284375,"end":595.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":595.97159375,"end":595.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.98846875,"end":596.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.0390937500001,"end":596.0559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.0559687500001,"end":596.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.35971875,"end":596.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.7478437500001,"end":596.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":598.48596875,"end":599.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":600.1228437500001,"end":600.61221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":19.769,"end":28.532,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請法務部蔡部蔡市長跟我們衛福部的郭副市長好蔡市長郭市長"},{"start":36.069,"end":37.838,"text":"條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":39.747,"end":67.321,"text":"首先我想針對衛福部的部分那因為今天我們要審查的這個刑法當中有關這個兒少凌虐的相關條文那在過去這一段時間我們也都從新聞媒體上都能看到重大的這些兒虐事件層出不窮那有些孩子因此身心受創那更有些孩子是來不及長大了那在近五年內"},{"start":68.522,"end":71.938,"text":"就有一百零三個孩子遭到受虐致死"},{"start":74.039,"end":99.345,"text":"那本席對於這些孩子的遭遇我們感到非常的痛心從衛福部所提供的這個資料來看近幾年這個兒少受虐的人數居高不下每年都在一萬人以上那在衛福部的這個書面報告中也有寫到人數會逐年增加是因為我們衛福部所推動的強化社會安全網的計畫而積極的這種發掘潛在案件並落實通報"},{"start":103.601,"end":129.148,"text":"所導致的這個數據逐年上升那我想我們社會安全網當然是要積極的這個推動但不應該作為人數增加的一個主因是不是請教我們衛福部除了因為這個積極通報所增加的案件那還有什麼樣的原因會導致遭受虐的人數居高不下"},{"start":130.524,"end":157.837,"text":"謝謝委員我們去看了這些通報的案件其實最大多數都是因為父母親缺乏親職的教育職能那第二個原因是那個夫妻之間可能有一些親密關係的失調所以會對孩子來施虐那還有一些原因可能是經濟的因素或者是這個施虐者有一些酗酒或藥物濫用或者是有一些精神方面的一些疾病等等大概是有這些問題"},{"start":159.177,"end":168.344,"text":"所以原因是非常非常多元跟複雜的那我們就這些問題有沒有辦法再去把這個人數向下壓有沒有可能"},{"start":169.175,"end":189.569,"text":"就如同委員所說我們希望這個對兒女是零容忍的所以不只是身體上的傷害不只是凌虐包括對於一些兒少的這個精神的暴力我們都認為這都屬於兒少保護的一環所以我們希望能夠把這一個向前延伸就服務向前延伸"},{"start":189.989,"end":194.394,"text":"條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具〈中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":207.306,"end":234.095,"text":"我們就這個刑法第286條在這個五年前就是2019年曾經修法過那當時的修正不只是擴大適用的對象也設立了最低的六個月有期徒刑對於致死人與死的也有這個另有刑責那相信在這個前次的修法當時也是希望能夠透過加重刑責來嚇阻犯罪"},{"start":234.963,"end":264.456,"text":"但是經過了這五年是不是嚇阻的效果不如預期那我想請問就我們衛福部的角度來看再加重刑責能否有效來減少額虐的事件就如同剛剛所說我們額虐每年通報這麼多件那多數的案件都不是屬於這個凌虐致死的案件那所以針對這個凌虐致死要不要再加重刑責當然一方面我們是尊重"},{"start":264.616,"end":265.738,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院及主管機關全責"},{"start":282.022,"end":286.084,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第13條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13條條文修正草案"},{"start":302.91,"end":317.504,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第12屆第13條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第14條條文修正草案．立法院第14條條文修正草案．立法院第16條條文修正草案．立法院第17條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第19條條"},{"start":318.615,"end":345.707,"text":"接下來我想請教我們蔡次長我們看到在審查的這個草案幾乎都是針對刑責加重那我想這是直觀也是利益良善可能也是我們社會所期待的一個方向那對於這些凌虐兒童的這個案件我們希望透過更嚴謹的這個法律來嚇阻犯罪的這個發生也積極來保護我們這些兒童跟少年"},{"start":346.345,"end":373.733,"text":"不過在這裡我想先就一件事情來做一個討論就是即便我們法條定的重法官也不一定判的重也就是說沒有多少的案件能夠判到最高的刑責我想請教我們次長刑法第286條在2019年修法過後我們凌虐的這個虐童的案件最重判多久"},{"start":374.329,"end":395.396,"text":"條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．事由．委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會"},{"start":400.871,"end":411.454,"text":"條文修正草案案．司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":429.787,"end":440.742,"text":"條文刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12屆刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆刑法第12屆刑法第12屆刑法第12屆刑法第12屆刑法第12屆刑法第12屆刑法第12屆刑法第12屆刑法第12屆刑法第12屆刑法"},{"start":441.715,"end":452.918,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條條文"},{"start":468.523,"end":494.042,"text":"所以量刑的基準一定要從中間也就是五年以上十二年以下你不可以再判五年你最起碼要看八年九年最起碼所以如果是這樣的話就不饒我們立法院他每次在為了這個事情要一再的不斷的加重所以徒法不足以自省那麼聶宇同剛剛衛和部也講到了他看到大多數的案件都是因為錯案發生的"},{"start":495.623,"end":502.22,"text":"父母親孽童不是自己認為不愛他去領略他一些情侶不是因為不愛他去領略他是錯愛"},{"start":504.431,"end":507.612,"text":"三）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具"},{"start":526.698,"end":527.499,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":546.812,"end":575.319,"text":"好,我想這個問題所在法官在判決的部分應該是要嚴守這個法律但這個判決的結果不一定能符合社會期待那也會導致這個民眾對司法的不信任所以剛剛那個次長您大概回覆這些我也希望說我們法務部應該對這個問題應該是要這個嚴加把關希望能夠讓我們這些被虐待的孩童還有我們相關的案件能夠有一個比較"},{"start":575.759,"end":590.033,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"}]}},{"id":"151253","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151253","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627d602d2287a9e8d7ccf744a9f110b3b1fc5dab72e655c1c94bbaac45826d34c475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:40:55 - 10:53:23","影片長度":"00:12:28","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":748,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:53:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:40:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":528,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（10時40分）謝謝主席。請財政部部長，還有經濟部次長、金管會主委。"],["主席：請莊部長、陳次長、黃主委。"],["賴委員惠員：法務部副司長。"],["主席：法務部。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["陳次長正祺：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：部長，今天針對這個專題報告，我們共同來討論租賃公司是不是只有BNPL的問題，其實問題相當的多，也相當的嚴重。融資公司在各地的延滯率都很高，這個是大家知道的，我以中租迪和今年初法說會上面的簡報來講，中租在臺灣的延滯率高達2.3%，相較之下，我們國內的銀行在12月底的逾放款比例僅有0.1%左右，它重要的市場不管是在中國還是在東協裡頭，延滯率更高達快要4%。在這裡請教次長，這個延滯率代表的是什麼意思？"],["陳次長正祺：以我的理解，延滯率指的是屆期沒有辦法還款的這種狀況，就表示它的風險是比較高一點。"],["賴委員惠員：風險是比較高的，次長，沒有還的話，會怎麼樣來處理呢？"],["陳次長正祺：我們在協處過程中，消費者去貸款之後，他有時候希望能夠展期，我們會協助他跟銀行或者租賃公司來協商，看是不是能夠展期。"],["賴委員惠員：他來展延清償的時間。"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["賴委員惠員：接著我要請問金管會主委，如果我們知道租賃業者會透過展延清償的這種方式來美化它的財務，金管會有沒有掌握這樣的資訊呢？對於這樣的不良資產，還有不正常的放款，你們有沒有什麼樣的一個方式呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：目前我們的瞭解，大陸跟臺灣應該是差不多，但是因為這個裡面除了看資產品質外，還要看它的利差，有的人的模式是它的利差如果大到足以cover這些延滯放款，可能打消的話，他可能覺得還是一個可行的商業模式，所以要看幾個數據。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，如果像我們國內的銀行可不可以這樣做呢？如果當它的展延、它的清償方式，它還不了的時候怎麼辦呢？你們有逐條去檢視它的……"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，跟委員報告，銀行是非常嚴謹的，逾期放款、催收款、呆帳處理辦法，那個程序都有……"],["賴委員惠員：沒有錯，我們當然知道銀行是非常的嚴謹，相對的，你們針對租賃公司有沒有這麼嚴謹呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：租賃公司目前沒有對它這個授信的細節部分去做規範，因為基本上它沒有吸收社會大眾資金，對銀行會那麼嚴謹，是因為它吸收社會大眾資金。"],["賴委員惠員：租賃公司沒有收到我們社會大眾的資金嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：租賃機構的錢是來自於金融機構的授信，它沒有直接向社會大眾……"],["賴委員惠員：所以它左手搬到右手去的話，我們金管會就不管了？可以不管嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：目前是沒有相關的法律基礎去管。"],["賴委員惠員：無法可管啦！謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：我想在這裡再請問一下，次長，整個中租迪和在中國有多少的假交易，你們有辦法查嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，這個部分我們沒有辦法查。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有辦法查嘛！沒有辦法查的時候，存保基金還可以去救銀行所有發生的特別狀況，如果像租賃公司所發生的這一些金融狀況，沒有辦法查，也沒有辦法去救它的時候，那該怎麼辦呢？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，經濟部的立場是保護消費者，我們不是要保護租賃公司，所以如果消費者在……"],["賴委員惠員：租賃公司跟消費者有沒有做成一個連結呢？"],["陳次長正祺：如果他們之間有爭議，經濟部的立場是保護消費者，法律上給我們的職權跟指定的業務是保護消費者。至於租賃公司會不會造成系統性的風險，就要看租賃公司的資金來源會不會造成系統性的風險，如果是租賃公司自己很有錢，它倒閉了，那是租賃公司個別公司的問題，但是我剛剛有聽到委員所講的，如果它的錢是來自於大眾資金，那我想金管會會來管理。"],["賴委員惠員：那我再請金管會，我想次長講得非常清楚，我們看到，租賃公司有沒有放高利貸？有沒有超過22倍？有沒有違反土建融的限制？有沒有經過第三地的洗錢，把我們的錢進到中國去？這個就是租賃公司，它就是最大的無牌高利貸公司。我在這裡要請問主委，我們有法可管嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，如果是金管會主管的金融機構或是金控轉投資的部分，這部分我們都可以透過母公司的管理去管，但是如果不是透過金融機構轉投資，是一般民間，您剛才提到的那一家公司，我們沒有辦法直接去管。"],["賴委員惠員：沒有辦法直接管。"],["黃主任委員天牧：但是因為它是發生在中國大陸，只要不要在系統風險傳染到臺灣，基本上對臺灣的金融體系是安全的。"],["賴委員惠員：主委，可是它的錢是從公股銀行搬去的。"],["黃主任委員天牧：跟委員報告，我的資料不見得正確，我剛剛報告過，剛剛局長說，從公股銀行過去的大概差不多200億左右，其他是在大陸就地貸款的。"],["賴委員惠員：不是、不是，絕對不是這樣子。我想由財政部部長來回答這個問題，本席在上一次的時候已經非常清楚地問過你了，從帳面上查得到的，這個租賃公司從八大公股銀行裡頭已經借貸一千三百多億了，剛才主委又講了，他說查得到的其實只有200億，為什麼數據上會有這樣的落差，顯然就是銀行沒有辦法逐筆去檢查到底你放款的錢的用途在哪裡，那該怎麼辦呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們八家公股行庫貸放給融資租賃公司的總金額目前是1,359億，您剛剛提的200億是指在大陸地區的，但是主委剛剛有說，在大陸地區的其實有很多是在大陸地區自己去貸放，跟臺灣這邊我們公股行庫貸放其實是不同的來源。"],["賴委員惠員：這個繞來繞去，大家其實都已經知道問題的嚴重性，只是沒有辦法很清楚地去講說這個就是大家共同的責任，我們一定要去正視這個問題，它顯然是一個很大的困境、很大的金融危機呈現在我們的社會上。","三大業者的貸款戶已經變成徵信的一個死角，那要怎麼辦呢？甚至有很多租賃公司要求建商，來借錢的時候還要採購它老闆私人所開設的一個產品，這個產品是什麼？是保健的食品，它強迫客戶採購特定的產品、商品，它有沒有涉及到背信，還有涉及到圖利呢？這個我要請教法務部，這樣強迫客戶採購老闆私人的產品，就是我這個老闆自己推出的一些保健食品的話，這樣有沒有涉及對公司的掏空，有沒有涉及到背信跟圖利呢？"],["簡副司長美慧：是不是會構成刑法第三百四十二條背信罪，或者是刑法瀆職罪章的圖利罪，又或者是貪污治罪條例裡面所講的圖利罪，這個部分要按照具體的個案事實，還有相關證據來判斷。"],["賴委員惠員：當然，我知道你會這樣回答我，他就是真實的要求要借貸的公司必須再附帶買生技產品，這是真實的，這類個案太多了。我們知道甚至在中國也發生很多類似的案件，就是借錢還要綁著買保健品。中租迪和跨足了生醫保健，就是「仲安家」，大家都非常清楚，甚至它還在國內有名的經濟雜誌創造了很多故事，讓大家把這家公司看成像一個成功的勝利組。我們是有法可管，還是無法可管？這個是大家必須很嚴肅地來考慮的問題，這樣左躲右閃，不是辦法。當這個案子產生這麼大的社會危機，大家竟然還是束手無策！業者無法無天，誰要來管？","臺北市租賃公會訂了一個自律規範，可是有這五條規範真的就能自律嗎？顯然是非常的空洞，短短的幾行怎麼樣去執行？我想這只是給委員一個交代，如果委員可以這樣照單全收，我們也是愧責。不管是區域，還是不分區的委員都有社會責任，自律規範沒有禁止放款給這些孩子。這些孩子出社會，當一臺摩托車可以借到30萬，讓他毫無社會經驗就承擔了這麼多的負債，大家必須非常嚴肅地來看待這個事情。自律規範沒有重點，年輕人繼續受害，違反也不處罰，這種東西有自律嗎？顯然毫無自律！我在這裡要再提醒各位，本席要求金管會在1個月內跟業者完成自律規範並且實施；金管會在自律規範實施以前，應該要求業者下架未揭露利率的廣告，或跟數位部討論強制下架；金管會應該重新審查業者延滯率計算方式跟數據，確認有沒有涉及美化財報。拜託金管會在1個月內提出書面報告，謝謝，拜託主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，我們朝這個方向去處理，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員質詢。待會兒李坤城委員質詢後，我們休息10分鐘。","接著請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-8","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","王世堅","顏寬恒","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","羅明才","林楚茵","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","吳春城","陳亭妃","王定宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就\n「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3.0178437500000004,"end":3.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4.58721875,"end":8.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.329093750000002,"end":10.425968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10.425968750000003,"end":13.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.640968750000003,"end":12.164093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.488468750000003,"end":16.028468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18.05346875,"end":19.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20.46659375,"end":28.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.88846875,"end":21.141593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":28.43159375,"end":33.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":33.96659375,"end":39.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":39.923468750000005,"end":44.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":45.407843750000005,"end":49.829093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":50.267843750000004,"end":56.14034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":56.22471875,"end":56.798468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":57.237218750000004,"end":57.760343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":58.01346875,"end":59.312843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":59.734718750000006,"end":66.33284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":66.34971875000001,"end":67.81784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":68.42534375000001,"end":71.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":71.81721875000001,"end":74.31471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.49159375,"end":83.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.49471875,"end":85.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":83.52846875,"end":83.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":85.80659375,"end":90.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.24034375000001,"end":105.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":104.62221875,"end":105.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":105.36471875000001,"end":113.14409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.66784375,"end":110.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":113.44784375,"end":120.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":121.15971875000001,"end":130.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.02721875,"end":137.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.24159375000002,"end":139.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.22846875000002,"end":144.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.34159375000002,"end":148.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.18909375,"end":156.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":154.38659375,"end":154.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":155.14596875,"end":169.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.03409375,"end":177.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":176.98221875000002,"end":183.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.47471875000002,"end":195.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":195.81471875000003,"end":200.91096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.91096875000002,"end":203.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.26909375000002,"end":208.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":204.37034375000002,"end":205.09596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":206.49659375000002,"end":206.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":207.84659375,"end":213.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.19159375,"end":219.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":216.41909375,"end":218.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":218.57909375000003,"end":219.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.52409375000002,"end":220.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":219.94596875000002,"end":223.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":223.65846875000003,"end":224.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":224.68784375,"end":225.31221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":226.03784375,"end":232.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":233.17596875,"end":233.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.25596875000002,"end":237.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":237.68159375000002,"end":246.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":247.45221875000001,"end":253.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":253.54409375000003,"end":257.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":258.40409375,"end":263.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.00221875,"end":272.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":271.83659375,"end":275.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.39284375,"end":303.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.76409375000003,"end":304.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":304.23659375,"end":304.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.42221875,"end":304.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":304.96221875000003,"end":306.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":307.59471875,"end":328.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":328.80659375000005,"end":335.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":336.13034375,"end":338.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":338.62784375,"end":340.88909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.83409375,"end":350.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.36409375,"end":359.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":359.58659375,"end":359.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.97471875,"end":369.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":360.00846875,"end":360.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":367.51784375,"end":372.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.62659375000004,"end":381.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.96284375000005,"end":381.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.03034375000004,"end":384.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":384.25784375,"end":399.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":400.00221875000005,"end":410.04284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":410.41409375,"end":417.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":417.43409375000005,"end":426.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":427.12034375,"end":431.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.99721875,"end":432.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":432.53721875,"end":432.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.55409375000005,"end":454.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.77409375,"end":456.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":456.97221875,"end":478.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":478.99409375000005,"end":479.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":480.02346875,"end":493.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":493.50659375000004,"end":510.53346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":510.92159375000006,"end":514.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.2878437500001,"end":517.4184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":518.1272187500001,"end":535.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":535.74471875,"end":539.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":539.03534375,"end":539.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":540.5034687500001,"end":540.5203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":540.5203437499999,"end":555.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":547.89471875,"end":548.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":554.64471875,"end":567.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":567.9422187499999,"end":568.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":569.27534375,"end":580.2778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":580.4128437500001,"end":582.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":583.46721875,"end":585.8972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":586.9265937499999,"end":587.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":587.51721875,"end":588.6140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":589.10346875,"end":609.4209687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":609.7078437499999,"end":618.0947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":618.9384687500001,"end":621.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":621.3684687500001,"end":633.0290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":633.6028437500001,"end":640.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":641.53409375,"end":652.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":652.4353437500001,"end":657.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":657.9197187500001,"end":659.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":660.11346875,"end":667.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":668.41596875,"end":686.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":687.4678437500002,"end":745.9228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":744.48846875,"end":746.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.01971875,"end":747.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":747.0534687500001,"end":747.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.8803437500001,"end":748.97721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.355,"end":11.886,"text":"謝謝主席我們請那個財政部部長還有經濟部次長請莊部長、陳次長金管會主委、法務部護士長法務部委員好是"},{"start":20.569,"end":43.812,"text":"部長我想今天針對的這個專題報告我們共同的來討論租賃公司是不是只有BMPL的一個問題其實問題相當的多也相當的嚴重那至於融資公司在各地的研製力都很高這個是大家知道的我以中租抵合就是今年初的法說會上面的一個簡報來講"},{"start":45.453,"end":74.048,"text":"中租在臺灣的一個研制力它高達2.3%相較之下我們國內的銀行在12月底的預換款比例僅有0.1到這個0.1左右那重要的市場不管是在這個中國還是在東協裡頭研制力更高達快要到4%所以在這裡請教次長就是說這個研制力代表的是什麼意思"},{"start":76.553,"end":88.772,"text":"延遲率應該,如果我的理解是指的是這個借期沒有辦法還款的這種狀況,那麼就表示它風險是比較高一點。風險是比較高的,那沒有還的話,次長會怎麼樣來處理呢?"},{"start":91.574,"end":119.934,"text":"我們在協處過程中就是消費者去貸款之後他有時候覺得這個希望能夠展期我們會協助他跟銀行或者這個租賃公司來協商看是不是能夠展期他來展言這個就是清場的那個時間那接著我要請問我們金管會主委如果就是說我們知道租賃業者他會透過展言清場的這種方式來美化他的財務"},{"start":121.195,"end":130.608,"text":"那金管會有沒有掌握這樣的一個資訊呢?對於這樣的一個不良資產還有不正常的一個換款,你們有沒有什麼樣的一個方式呢?"},{"start":132.062,"end":153.619,"text":"目前我們的了解跟委員我想尤其是臺灣部分應該是大陸跟臺灣應該是差不多但是因為這裡面不是只是除了看這個資產品只要看他的利差有的人的模式是他利差如果大到足以cover這些研製放緩可能打消的話他可能覺得還是一個可行的商業模式"},{"start":154.219,"end":182.602,"text":"主委我想就是說如果像我們國內的銀行可以不可以這樣做呢?如果他的一個展言他的清場的方式他還不了的時候怎麼辦呢?你有主條主條的去那個檢視他的一個那個?有,跟委員報告銀行是非常嚴謹的預期放款、催收款、代帳處理辦法那個程序沒有錯,我們當然知道銀行是非常的嚴謹那相對的你們針對的主任公司有沒有這麼嚴謹啊?"},{"start":184.52,"end":203.059,"text":"主任公司目前沒有對他這個受信的細節部分去做規範因為基本上他沒有吸收社會大眾資金銀行會那麼嚴謹是因為他吸收社會大眾資金主任公司沒有那個就是收到了那個我們社會大眾的一個資金嗎主任公司的錢是來自於"},{"start":204.332,"end":206.793,"text":"市長,整個中租抵合在中國有多少的交易,你們有辦法查嗎?"},{"start":234.298,"end":263.268,"text":"市長報告委員這個部分我們沒有辦法查沒有辦法查嗎好這個沒有辦法查的時候我們會不會就是說我們有沒有辦法就是說在這個村保基金還可以來救銀行他所有花生的一個這個特別的一個狀況那如果像住院公司他所花生的這一些金融的狀況沒有辦法查也沒有辦法去就是去救他的時候那該怎麼辦呢"},{"start":265.789,"end":274.934,"text":"報告委員經濟部的立場是保護消費者我們不是要保護租賃公司所以如果消費者在那租賃公司跟消費者有沒有做成一個連結呢"},{"start":276.451,"end":303.2,"text":"我們如果他們之間有爭議經濟部立場是保護消費者我們法律上給我們的職權跟指定的業務是保護消費者那至於租賃公司會造成系統性的風險的話就要看租賃公司資金來源會不會造成系統性如果是租賃公司自己很有錢他倒閉了那是租賃公司個別公司問題但是我剛剛有聽到委員所講如果他的錢是來自於大眾資金那我想金管會來管理"},{"start":303.843,"end":328.157,"text":"是,好,那我再請金管會那我想這個次長講得非常清楚就是說在下一頁我們看到了就是說主任公司他在有沒有換高利貸有沒有超過22倍有沒有違反土建融的一個限制有沒有經過第三地的一個洗錢把我們的錢進到中國去"},{"start":330.138,"end":350.732,"text":"報告委員如果是金融金管會主管的金融機構或是金控他轉投資的部分這部分我們都可以透過母公司的管理去管"},{"start":352.406,"end":368.752,"text":"但是如果不是透過金融機構轉投只是一般民間你剛提到的那一家公司我們沒有辦法直接去管但是因為它是發生在中國大陸只要不會在系統風險傳染到台灣基本上對台灣的金融體系是安全的"},{"start":373.666,"end":399.014,"text":"可是跟委員報告我的資料不見得正確我剛剛報告過從公股銀行過去的剛剛局長說大概差不多200億左右其他就是在大陸就地貸款的不是不是絕對不是這樣子公股銀行我想在這個那個我想由財政部部長來回答這個話在本席在上一次的時候已經非常清楚的問過你了就是說所有從我們八大公股銀行"},{"start":400.394,"end":424.916,"text":"這個主任公司從八大公股銀行裡頭你已經就是借貸就是你帳面上查得到的就是已經一千三百多億了那這個剛才主委又講了他說如果查得到的其實只有兩百億這個為什麼這個數據上會有這樣子的一個落差呢顯然就是說銀行他沒有辦法足比的去檢查"},{"start":425.977,"end":454.44,"text":"到底你你晃了的錢到底他的用途在哪裡那該怎麼辦呢跟委員報告也就是說我們八家公股行庫帶放給融資註定公司的總金額目前來說是1359億但是您剛剛提的200億是指說在大陸地區的但是主委剛剛有說大陸地區他其實有很多是在大陸地區自己去帶放在跟台灣這邊我們公股行庫帶放其實是是不同的來源"},{"start":456.495,"end":478.372,"text":"所以我想這個繞來繞去大家其實都已經知道問題的一個嚴重性只是就是沒有辦法就是很清楚的去講說這個就是大家共同的一個責任那為什麼我們一定要去正視這個問題他顯然是一個很大的一個困境很大的一個金融的危機呈現在我們的社會上"},{"start":479.113,"end":491.426,"text":"那這個三大業者的一個貸款戶已經變成了真信的一個死角那要怎麼辦呢甚至有很多主任公司要求建商你來借錢的時候你還要採購我老闆"},{"start":494.509,"end":495.109,"text":"大陸的消息"},{"start":518.551,"end":539.26,"text":"就是說在這樣子的一個就是強迫客戶採購就是老闆的一個私人的一個產品就是說我這個老闆我自己推出了一些就是我的保健食品的話那這樣子有沒有涉及就是掏空這個對公司的一個掏空有沒有涉及到一個背信跟圖令啊"},{"start":540.801,"end":544.684,"text":"當然我知道你會這樣回答我這個已經就是說他就是真實的要求就是你要借貸的這一個公司必須要在護貸買我的這個生技產品了是"},{"start":569.315,"end":585.687,"text":"真實的真實的這個個案太多了個案太多了就是說我們知道就是這個甚至就是在中國也發生了很多類似的這樣的一個那個案件就是你借錢你還要綁著就是要買我的保健品"},{"start":587.618,"end":609.117,"text":"所以在下一頁我想中珠迪河他跨足了生意的保健就是重案家這個大家都是非常清楚了甚至他在我們國內有名的這個經濟雜誌裡頭他還去做了很多創造了很多的一個故事讓大家把他這個公司看了就像一個成功的一個勝利主"},{"start":610.56,"end":617.735,"text":"這個我覺得我們是不是有法可管還是無法可管這個是我們大家必須要就是很"},{"start":619.133,"end":619.153,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":641.904,"end":658.922,"text":"經濟部也列了一個臺北市主任公會訂了一個自立的規範可是這個五條的一個規範真的能自立嗎顯然好像是非常的一個空洞非常的一個空洞端端的幾行怎麼樣去執行我想這個都是"},{"start":660.462,"end":686.209,"text":"這是一個交代,交代給委員可是如果說委員可以這樣子照單前收的話這個我們也是愧則就是我們不管是區域還是部分區的那個委員這樣子的一個社會責任你自立的規範沒有禁止就是要換款的這些孩子這些孩子就是說他在出社會的時候當他一台摩托車他可以借到30萬的時候他就是這樣子"},{"start":687.509,"end":716.57,"text":"毫無就是一個社會經驗他就是變成一個就是就承擔了這麼多的一個負債這個是我們大家必須要就是非常嚴肅的來看待這個事情自立規範沒有重點年輕人繼續受害違反也不處罰這種東西有自立嗎顯然是毫無自立所以在這裡也是要跟各位再提醒那本席要求就是金款會在一個業內跟業者完全"},{"start":717.21,"end":746.252,"text":"致力規範並且實施那金管會在致力規範實施以前應該要要求業者下架還有就是要揭露他的利率的一個廣告跟數位部討論強制的一個下架金管會應該重新審查業者他的研製力的計算的方式跟數據確認是不是涉及他有沒有美化他的財報拜託金管會在一個月內提出書面的報告是我們朝這個方向去處理謝謝"},{"start":747.114,"end":747.134,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151252","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151252","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016278ac76109be70051e0915613d02a5e1dcc5dab72e655c1c94334e7edb528509595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:38:58 - 10:51:27","影片長度":"00:12:29","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（4月17日及18日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":749,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:51:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:38:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":419,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時39分）謝謝主席。請潘部長。"],["主席：好，部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：部長，早安。部長，今天的主題其實是針對教改，我們從1994年的410教改大遊行催生成立了410教改聯盟，當時有很多項的教改訴求，包括落實小班小校、廣設高中大學、推動教育現代化，以及制定教育基本法等。當然，經過30年，我們再回顧當時的訴求，以現在的環境改變，我們再來看會有不同的認知、不同的理解。部長，您在教育部長的職位7年多，是歷屆教育部長任職紀錄最長的，本席對您的認真勤勉真的非常肯定，在您即將卸任的時刻，請問您對新任部長有什麼期許？或者應該這樣說，您最期望哪一個政策可以繼續延續下去？"],["潘部長文忠：是，謝謝委員的肯定，教育工作真的很龐雜，從學前到終身教育，要單獨說哪個，其實我認為都很重要。這幾年雖然事情好多、好繁雜，但是我覺得應該要同時兼顧。我想委員也知道，像在教文會討論的幼兒園生師比問題，這也是長期以來的問題，應該要體恤教保同仁的辛苦，像這樣的工作，我們開始啟動，已經有七成左右，但是還有後面要持續進行，我是舉這樣的例子，學前重要，那你說後面的終身學習重不重要？高齡的長者馬上有這麼多，這一些教育部這幾年在同仁一起努力之下，其實也都建立了一定的機制，只是我一直都相信教育是要不斷從現況檢討有哪些還不夠，有哪些應該再去做，不斷地滾動修正，才不會有所偏廢。"],["陳委員秀寳：本席在上週針對教改30年的問題就教林明裕次長，林次長認為只要明星高中還在，就很難降低學生的升學壓力，部長的想法呢？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，確實啦！我們都當過父母，也知道父母的心，總是孩子好能夠更好，這是父母永遠的期待，我們自己也當然如此，所以在升學這件事情上，其實臺灣不管哪個階段教育提供的量，應該都是充分的，在少子女化後更是充分，但只要學校還是我們過去所謂的明星學校這樣的稱呼，事實上就是……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以部長也是這樣看，就是如果明星學校還存在，孩子的升學壓力一定就會……"],["潘部長文忠：這個部分不只是孩子本身，我想有時候就是一種期許，所以這種情況……"],["陳委員秀寳：其實對家長、對學校老師來講也都是這樣子。總的來說，不管是過去、現在還是未來，我們的教育，不管是在課綱的研擬還是改革，本席都希望以學生為主體的立場是不會變的。"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：我再請教部長，在少子女化現象的衝擊之下，去年大專院校有和春技術學院、中州科技大學、台灣首府大學退場了，今年還有明道大學、環球科技大學及東方設計大學停辦，你們的報告裡面提到東方設計大學停辦之後，占地9公頃的校園已經由高雄科技大學向教育部申請接收，會成為高科大第6個校園，而且規劃作為「高科大產學合作園區」，這個部分教育部支持嗎？核定了沒有？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，因為現在退場後的校產一定要做好的公益使用，當然這裡面包含地方政府、公立學校、中央政府都可以依需求思考，這個區域因為高雄科大最近在產學拓展上是蠻積極的……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以教育部是支持的？"],["潘部長文忠：如果學校有提出清楚的規劃，他們目前是有表達需求，但是我們當然希望學校不能只是取得用地，至於要如何善用……"],["陳委員秀寳：核定了嗎？現在的進程是已經核定了吧？"],["潘部長文忠：應該。基本上，在行政院跨部會會議裡得到的是同意這個方向。"],["陳委員秀寳：是同意的，那請問部長，如果高科大產學合作園區的模式是可行的，位在南彰化的明道大學今年也要停辦，本人覺得非常可惜，而南彰化有中科二林精密機械園區，也是臺灣非常重要的產業聚落，如果教育部跟彰化師範大學可以善用明道大學校區的這個優勢，是不是也可以評估規劃彰師大產學合作園區？讓原本高教的場地就繼續用於教育用途，您的看法如何？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，當然後續經營主體本身的評估是很重要的。有關委員這個想法，因為彰師大有好多是在產學這方面，如果他想參考高雄科大的模式，我想教育部當然會支持。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以如果彰師大有這樣的規劃，你們也是會支持，也是會贊成？"],["潘部長文忠：對，但是他一定要提出規劃，千萬不能只是想趕快拿到校地，卻什麼也不做，這樣反而會讓校地閒置。"],["陳委員秀寳：另外，以中州大學為例，其實原本是有考慮規劃成社宅或長照據點，但報告上提到校地經由內政部承接，根據瞭解，會規劃成民防訓練基地。請問部長，如果以中州大學這個校地利用來講，民防訓練基地有確定了嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：這個部分是確定的，因為內政部是很清楚的表達它的需求，我跟委員報告，行政院跨部會平臺是由副院長來主持，都會請各相關公家部門、學校來做需求評估。"],["陳委員秀寳：當然以各部不管是內政部或是衛福部，有場地的需求，以院長的看法可能會覺得就去評估，但是以教育部的看法，你們會不會覺得其實對退場的校園還是應該朝社宅或是長照據點會更具有公益性？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，當然社宅或其他有些還是有其主政的單位，比如像社宅也是內政部在思考。其實教育部對這樣的訊息幾乎是廣發給各相關部會，原因就是如果這個地域……當然社宅也有社宅的需求考量，因為委員也知道……"],["陳委員秀寳：因為在地民眾本來也以為這個會去規劃成社宅或長照據點，後來知道有這樣的結果之後，他們蠻驚愕的。在他們認定中，退場的校園不就是應該比較有公益性的場域來利用，為什麼會變成是民防訓練的基地？當然這個不是部長能夠去決定的。對於這個退場的場地，如果各部門有需求提出來，也許院長有其他的考量，但是本席會覺得結合在地民眾的意見，退場的這些校園還是應該用在比較有公益性這樣的運用，會比較符合民眾的期待。"],["潘部長文忠：是，委員，這個公益性一定是……只是面向不同而已，比如像剛才內政部他們用做民防的訓練，其實還是公益使用，只是委員可能更希望能聽到在地民眾的聲音跟訴求，說如果這個不錯的退場校地能夠再增建一部分的社宅。我也跟委員報告，這部分委員可以反映地方的需求，目前社宅本來也有中央跟地方的籌建，如果說在這一方面，委員也可以把這樣的訊息給主管的部會……"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝部長。接下來本席要針對高教公共化的議題來就教部長。根據統計，低收入戶子女進入頂尖大學的比率，從2009年統計到2014年都在1%以下，進入公立大學的比率最高也只有0.7%至1.2%。由此看來，公立學校的學生，其家庭社經背景會比較高。根據教育部111年度教育統計資料顯示，高中職畢業生就讀公立大專院校大概占35%，就讀私立大專的學生占了65%，研究統計資料都是指出，經濟不利及比較弱勢家庭的學生反而就讀私立大學的比較多。根據這個部分的數據本席要請教部長，為什麼公立大學沒有辦法招收更多來自經濟、文化不利及弱勢家庭的學生？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，當然入學有相關的機制跟所設定的一些規範，這畢竟是入學的一個模式，也考慮到其公平性。教育部為什麼在這些年推委員所提到的願景計畫，就是有一些家庭經濟各方面比較弱勢的孩子，我們有個一年大概一千多名的機會希望能夠扶助就讀公立，尤其是國立學校，包含大專校院的機會，也就是希望在這上面能夠提供……"],["陳委員秀寳：對，部長，您提到願景計畫，我們今年願景計畫的總申請名額有幾個？"],["潘部長文忠：我請司長跟委員報告一下。"],["朱代理司長俊彰：跟委員報告，一般大學跟技職校院加起來，每年核定名額大概是1,000到1,200位左右，這是個人申請，但是還有不同的管道在繁星的部分也有名額。"],["陳委員秀寳：個人申請是550個名額，是嗎？"],["朱代理司長俊彰：對。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，應該說幾個管道加起來大概是1,000到1,200。"],["陳委員秀寳：比去年增加了7個校系跟13個名額。如果以弱勢家庭的學生及家庭比例來看，願景計畫的名額應該要再提高，現在550個個人申請名額的申請狀況是已經都提出來了嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：目前應該正在進行中。"],["朱代理司長俊彰：5月會辦理。"],["陳委員秀寳：正在進行中。"],["潘部長文忠：甄試在……"],["陳委員秀寳：部長覺得這樣的名額夠嗎？會不會再逐年提高名額？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，因為今天這個議題碰到少子化，我們就碰到好多好多面向的問題，但是讓經濟弱勢等的家庭有機會透過政府的一些政策去就讀公立、國立的學校，我認為這是一個我們講的社會流動等等可以透過教育的政府政策啦！但是就整體的名額到什麼程度，可能也要整體評估一下。"],["陳委員秀寳：這邊我跟您提願景計畫，接下來跟您討論教育部的高等教育深耕計畫第二期提到提升高教公共性有2個機制：一個是完善就學協助機制；第二個是透過原住民族學生資源中心輔導原住民學生入學，營造友善的族群環境。這部分本席希望要落實高教的公共化，除了提供學雜費的補助之外，其實應該有完善的、相關的友善措施，我們要讓教育真正是成為能夠翻轉階級的助力，所以在這一塊為什麼會說比較弱勢家庭的學生就讀公私立學校的比例，我們必須從這裡面去討論出弱勢會更弱勢，以及社經背景比較高的、比較容易進入公立學校這些原因來協助弱勢家庭的學生，可以藉由教育的力量反轉，部長，你同意嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員這個提醒，我想我們這幾個機制可能需要再做一些補強、強化的措施。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝，因為主席站起來了，我的時間到了，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-8","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","吳春城","范雲","張嘉郡","羅智強","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","廖偉翔","莊瑞雄","劉建國","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.60846875,"end":5.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.94096875,"end":9.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.970343750000001,"end":10.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.134718750000001,"end":60.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.094093750000006,"end":55.127843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.713468750000004,"end":70.36596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.65284375,"end":80.49096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.71034375,"end":103.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.60971875000001,"end":104.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.89221875000001,"end":123.87659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.65346875,"end":121.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.83471875000001,"end":122.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.65721875000001,"end":136.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.34721875,"end":142.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.01284375,"end":143.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.00846875000002,"end":144.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.93659375000001,"end":169.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.57409375,"end":175.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.00409375,"end":174.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.44659375,"end":181.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.52159375000002,"end":228.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.56159375000001,"end":195.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.54784375000003,"end":233.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.34471875000003,"end":248.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.80221875,"end":250.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.25346875000002,"end":259.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.53971875000002,"end":255.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.35346875,"end":260.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.85096875,"end":261.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.16721875,"end":267.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.74034375,"end":302.39721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.39721875000004,"end":305.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.44784375,"end":302.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.51909375,"end":322.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.68096875000003,"end":326.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.68909375000004,"end":334.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.32471875000005,"end":355.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.21159375,"end":357.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.88221875000005,"end":362.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.29909375,"end":374.30159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.45784375000005,"end":394.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.86409375000005,"end":415.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.85221875,"end":458.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.69159375000004,"end":417.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.20846875,"end":457.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.42346875000004,"end":492.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.12284375,"end":553.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.40534375000004,"end":493.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":553.88534375,"end":588.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.78721875,"end":594.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.97596875,"end":595.4822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.93346875,"end":598.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.61659375,"end":599.9878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.1059687500001,"end":606.8728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.48034375,"end":613.2009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.4878437500001,"end":619.8159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":617.5378437500001,"end":617.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":617.8415937500001,"end":622.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.4484687500001,"end":639.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":639.6440937500001,"end":642.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.41596875,"end":642.3103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.3103437500001,"end":642.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.96846875,"end":644.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.96846875,"end":647.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":644.47034375,"end":644.5378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.5378437500001,"end":644.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":644.63909375,"end":644.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.7065937500001,"end":644.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":644.8415937500001,"end":645.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":647.87909375,"end":676.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.26284375,"end":739.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":739.3584687500002,"end":746.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":747.0534687500001,"end":749.3147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":747.27284375,"end":748.3190937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.575,"end":5.756,"text":"謝謝主席 請潘部長好 部長委員好部長 早安部長 我們今天的主題其實對這個教改我們從1994年的410教改大遊行來催生成立了410教改聯盟當時有很多項的教改的訴求包括落實小班小校廣設高中大學推動教育現代化以及制定教育基本法等"},{"start":31.574,"end":60.012,"text":"當然經過30年我們再回顧當時的訴求以現在環境改變之後我們來看會有不同的認知不同的理解那部長您在教育部長的職位7年多是我們歷屆的教育部長任職紀錄最長的那本席對您的認真情面也真的是非常的肯定您即將卸任的時候呢您對新任的部長有什麼期許或者說應該這樣說您最期望怎麼樣的哪一個政策是可以繼續延續下去"},{"start":60.768,"end":61.088,"text":"主席"},{"start":80.808,"end":80.828,"text":"陳秀寳議員"},{"start":103.824,"end":103.844,"text":"陳秀寳議員"},{"start":124.032,"end":143.13,"text":"本席在上週有針對教改30年的問題來就叫林明毅的次長那次長認為說只要明星高中還在那我們就很難降低我們學生的升學壓力部長您的想法呢委員確實啦因為當父母我們都當父母你們都知道父母的心總是孩子好"},{"start":144.051,"end":144.251,"text":"陳秀寳 陳秀寳 陳秀寳"},{"start":169.666,"end":179.579,"text":"所以部長您也這樣看啦就是如果是明星學校還存在我們孩子的升學壓力是一定就會那個部分因為不只孩子本身啦我想有時候就是一種情緒上所以這種情況其實對家長對學校的老師來講也都是這樣子齁"},{"start":186.427,"end":209.386,"text":"總體來說不管是說過去現在還是未來我們的教育不管是說是在課綱的眼裡還是改革本期都希望說這是以學生為主體的立場是不會變的那這個部分我再跟您請教在少子女化的現象衝擊之下去年的大專院校友和春技術學院中州科技大學臺灣首府大學退場了那在今年還有明道大學環球科技大學及東方設計大學停辦"},{"start":211.047,"end":228.75,"text":"那你們的報告裏面有說東方設計大學停辦之後呢占第9公頃的校園已經由高雄科技大學向教育部這邊來申請接收會成為他們高科大第6個校園而且規劃作為高科大產學合作園區這個部分教育部你們支持嗎也已經核定了沒有"},{"start":229.588,"end":230.589,"text":"所以教育部你們是支持的"},{"start":250.302,"end":253.965,"text":"部長,如果說高科大產學合作園區這個模式可行的那在我們南昌化的明道大學今年也要停辦本人也覺得非常的可惜"},{"start":278.564,"end":302.463,"text":"在我們彰化南彰化有中科20機密機械園區也是我們臺灣非常重要的產業聚落那如果說我們明道大學這個校區教育部跟彰化師範大學如果可以善用這個優勢是不是我們也可以評估來規劃一個彰式大產學合作園區這樣原本就是教高教的場地繼續用教育的用途部長您的看法"},{"start":303.344,"end":322.516,"text":"委員這個當然後續經營的這個主體啦他本身我覺得評估是很重要的委員這個想法我想如果這個張思達因為他有好多是在產學這方面如果他比如想參考高雄科大的模式我想教育部當然會支持"},{"start":322.756,"end":326.417,"text":"另外以中州大學為例原本其實有在考慮規劃成社宅或是長照的據點那在報告上面是說校地已經由內政部來承接而且根據了解現在是會規劃成為民防訓練基地"},{"start":348.584,"end":354.988,"text":"我想請問部長以這個中州大學的這個校地利用來講民防訓練基地這個有確定了嗎?這個部分是確定的因為內政部是很清楚的表達他的這個需求"},{"start":363.396,"end":393.276,"text":"因為我跟委員報告在跨部會行政跨部這個平台是由副院長來主持但是都會請各相關公家部門學校來做需求的評估當然以各部不管是內政部或是衛華或者是他們對這樣子有需求有場地的需求那以院長的看法可能就會覺得需去評估但是以教育部的看法你們會不會覺得說其實退場的校園還是應該朝社宅或是長照據點這樣子會有更具有共同化"},{"start":393.396,"end":394.337,"text":"因為其實以在地民眾他們本來也以為這個會規劃成設宅或長照據點"},{"start":420.057,"end":438.055,"text":"所以後來知道有這樣的結果之後他們有蠻驚訝的就是說其實他們認定中就是說我們退場的這個校園不是應該就是比較有公益性的這樣的場域的利用為什麼會變成是一個民防訓練的基地當然這個以部長您這個是不是您能夠去決定的這個退場的場地"},{"start":441.258,"end":454.657,"text":"如果說有各部門他們有這個需求提出來也許院長他有其他的考量但是本席也會覺得說結合在地民眾的意見退場的這些校園還是應該用在比較有公益性的這樣的運用會比較符合民眾他們的期待"},{"start":458.622,"end":482.088,"text":"委員這公益性一定是只是他面相不同而已比如像剛才內政部他們用做民防的訓練他其實還是公益使用只是委員可能在地更希望說聽到民眾的聲音跟訴求說如果這個不錯的退場的效力能夠再增建一部分的像我也跟委員報告這部分因為委員可以反映地方的需求"},{"start":483.288,"end":494.134,"text":"在目前社宅本來也有中央跟地方的籌建如果說在這一方面委員也可以把這樣的訊息給主管的部會好 謝謝部長接下來本期要針對公共化的議題來就叫部長根據統計低收入戶子女進入頂尖大學的比例一年來從2009年統計到2014年其實都在"},{"start":506.021,"end":506.041,"text":"﹚陳秀寳"},{"start":533.246,"end":552.947,"text":"所以研究統計資料是這樣子都指出說其實經濟不利以及比較弱勢家庭的學生反而是就讀私立大學的比較多那這個部分這樣的數據呢本席這邊要請教部長為什麼公立大學沒有辦法照說更多來自經濟文化不利以及弱勢家庭的學生"},{"start":554.379,"end":578.425,"text":"委員大人入學他有相關的這個機制跟所會設定的一些規範這個是我想入學畢竟是入學的一個模式考慮到的公平性那教育部為什麼在這些年推委員所提到的這個願景計畫就是有些家庭經濟各方面比較弱勢的這樣的孩子我們有一個一年大概一千多名的"},{"start":578.945,"end":580.767,"text":"一般大學跟技職校園加起來我們核定名額每年大概是1000到1200位左右"},{"start":607.703,"end":629.694,"text":"在不同的管道,現在這是個人申請但是我們還有在繁星的部分也有名額因為個人申請是不是是550個名額是嗎?應該說幾個管道加起來大概是1000到1200比去年增加了7個消息跟13個名額但是如果是以弱勢家庭的學生及家庭比例來看其實月景計畫這個名額應該要再提高"},{"start":632.735,"end":645.079,"text":"現在550個這個個人申請的名額是申請的狀況是都已經都有提出來了嗎目前應該在個人是應該正在進行中正在進行中部長您覺得這樣的名額夠嗎我們會不會在逐年提高名額這個我想因為今天這個議題碰到少子化我們就碰到好多好多面向的問題但是讓弱勢經濟弱勢等的家庭有機會透過政府的一些政策去就讀"},{"start":662.624,"end":662.644,"text":"其實這邊齁"},{"start":677.281,"end":681.825,"text":"提到提升高校公共性有兩個機制一個是完善就學協助機制第二個是透過原住民族的學生資源中心來輔導原住民學生來入學來營造這個友善的這個族群環境"},{"start":699.982,"end":713.85,"text":"這個部分本席提醒是希望說我們要落實高教的公共化除了提供我們學長會的補助之外其實應該有完善的相關的友善措施我們要讓教育真正是成為能夠翻產階級的助力所以在這一塊為什麼說這個比較弱勢家庭的學生就讀公司力這個學校的這個比例我們必須從這裡面去討論出來說他的"},{"start":726.396,"end":729.158,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我想我們藉由這幾個機制下需要再做一些補強強化的措施"}]}},{"id":"151251","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151251","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016274673037af84c81f6068d0b55d8f96a4ec5dab72e655c1c94819318ace39e6e1f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"10:37:50 - 10:50:44","影片長度":"00:12:54","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":774,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:50:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:37:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":144,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（10時37分）謝謝主席，有請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["邱部長國正：羅委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長好。部長，昨天傳出了潛艦國造專案召集人黃曙光上將正式向蔡英文總統請辭，我想他在這段時間真的承受了很大的壓力，身心俱疲，所以選擇在這個階段性任務完成之後提出請辭，當然這讓國人感到非常的不捨，在這裡我也要向黃曙光召集人說一聲謝謝，感謝他對國家的付出。","接下來我想請教的是有關於國防自主，在談這個議題以前，之前我們有看到一份報導，就是美國眾議院有一個所謂的Tiger Team（老虎小組）有提出來，現在美國對臺的軍售可能會因為烏俄戰爭或是以巴戰爭而延遲交付，尤其是有19項、總金額高達220億美金的武器可能要等到2027年或是更晚才能夠做交付，當然這個也讓國人有點擔心。尤其是中國已經連續20年增加軍費開支，2024年他們的軍費開支更是高達2,320億美元，不單單是臺灣，東亞各國其實都是非常緊張，面對中國的窮兵黷武，我們需要維持相應的軍事投資，才能夠維持兩岸戰力的平衡，可是美國目前的延遲交付，國人也擔心會不會導致我國的軍事會產生所謂的真空期，請問部長。"],["邱部長國正：是，跟委員報告，委員講得很對，有時候其他國家戰爭會連動到其他國家不管是經濟或者是武器採購方面，的確會影響到進度。但美方之所以成立老虎小組，當初我們在逐年編列預算要採購當中，的確有些是延宕的，但不光是在這個老虎小組成立之前我們有作為，它成立以後我們是做的更加密切。譬如說，一有延宕了，我們一定透過各種管道，不是軍方跟它交接，透過外交部駐美團，我們都有代表嘛，還有透過各種管道，哪怕在會議上，我們都會提出來。這幾年當然有延宕的，但是都在進步當中，而且基本上來講的話，可能大家會誤會我們又要推延，譬如2025它本來要交多少、2026要交多少，可能變成2025交一部分，把後面的延到2026，但最後截止的日期都不會變，這個我特別跟委員做說明。但國防部不因此而去講反正早晚都會來，不會，因為我們的訓練同步在做，假如我們訓了半天，裝備沒有來，這些人又退了，等於白訓練，所以我們用各種管道讓我們的軍購能夠如期獲得，以便搭上在這全案的推動當中，不光是只等待設施武器，我們連同人員的訓練一樣能夠同步而行。"],["羅委員美玲：是，部長，因為您提到在期限以前，所有軍購的這些設備其實都會如期於期限前交付嘛，可是美國眾議院有提到說很有可能比2027年更晚，他們已經有公開提到這個部分，報告裡面有特別提到，可是臺灣我們這裡卻認為它能夠如期交付，可是它的報告裡面卻提到很可能會比2027年更晚，所以我們在溝通這個點的部分到底是怎麼樣的狀況？部長剛剛也有提到，在這個報告一出來之後，我們一直都有跟美方來做溝通，可是實際上它的報告出來就是這樣，我們會因為溝通，然後讓他們如期交付這些武器嗎？"],["邱部長國正：這是我們的期望，我們自己要努力……"],["羅委員美玲：是期望？可是也有可能？"],["邱部長國正：是，我們要把目標達到要透過很多方法，但我跟委員報告，我們不推託，因為我們做建軍備戰的工作，備戰的概念就是說，我現在有什麼，一旦發生戰爭，我這些東西就要用，所以建軍是未來，採購與否或生產與否是未來，但我不能講戰爭在這個當中不要發生啊，萬一裝備還沒有來怎麼辦？我們的備戰每一年都要修訂計畫的原因在哪裡呢？就是為了要預防假如沒有辦法如期獲得的話，我現有的裝備還是一樣要去應付當時的狀況，這個是不會變的。"],["羅委員美玲：是，像上次質詢的時候我就有跟部長提到一點，當然我們不能夠一直都是仰賴軍購的部分，所以我們才要推所謂的國防自主嘛，可是還是有一部分的武器要仰賴美國及其他盟國來進口，目前因為烏俄戰爭或者以巴戰爭導致它的產能有疑慮，會有所謂延宕交付的問題，我們有沒有想過可以擴大洽談在臺灣在地生產，甚至是技術轉移，有沒有可能？"],["邱部長國正：是，我跟委員初步講，這些我們都在計畫當中有，至於詳細情形，我請戰規司司長或者在會後把詳細經過……"],["羅委員美玲：這個部分可以答復一下嗎？"],["邱部長國正：簡單說明。"],["李司長世強：委員，我很簡單跟您做說明，第一個就是軍售不是我們從美方獲得或提升我們戰力的唯一手段，事實上，這兩年透過其他各種不同的軍事援助方式，不斷的在加強我們的相關戰力，我想委員也從媒體相關報導都可以獲知。第二個部分就是針對現在所有正在進行中的軍售案，我們跟美方的Tiger Team，包含美方眾議院的Tiger team，我們都有做很密切的聯繫，2027年只是一個客觀觀察的數據，但是我們都儘量希望能夠在加強美國國防工業韌性的狀況下，去儘量提前我們所有軍售裝備的交付。"],["羅委員美玲：之前我有看到媒體在說，其實臺灣好像在軍購延宕這部分的態度上是比較軟弱的，你們對於這個部分有什麼說法嗎？"],["李司長世強：我們……"],["羅委員美玲：就是我們不夠積極的這個部分。"],["邱部長國正：跟委員報告，有時候講軟弱是因為表達時可能口吻稍微委婉一點，我一直覺得有時候理直氣不見得要壯，理直氣和，只要能夠達到目標都是談的一個手段，所以假如片面的說你不夠硬、要硬起來、要大聲的跟人家對抗，我覺得我們的目的是要獲得，但用什麼方法因人而異、因階段而異，我們也有用硬的一部分，但沒有訴諸於公開，所以我覺得這也是一個媒播的效應，我也不能做評論，但我跟委員保證，也跟國人保證，在軍購這一方面或者任何武器獲得方面，國軍一直持續努力不斷地做，而且透過各種管道，不光是完全國防部自己來做努力，畢竟這個力量是有限的。"],["羅委員美玲：好，謝謝部長，我們小英總統講過，備戰才能避戰，能戰才能止戰，所以我們臺灣一直以來的態度就是我們不主動求戰嘛，部長也曾經說過……"],["邱部長國正：對，我們不求戰。"],["羅委員美玲：可是歷史的經驗告訴我們，下跪跟妥協是不能夠帶來和平，所以不管是對外軍購或者是國防自主，這部分我想都是臺灣正確，尤其是國防自主這部分是我們臺灣正確要走的道路，我們看到南韓的例子，讓我們覺得非常的明確，要保護自己的國家就是要有國防自主的能力。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["羅委員美玲：後面還有一點時間，我想跟各位探討一個比較稍微輕鬆一點的議題，就是我們的全民國防應變手冊裡面有提到所謂避難包的篇章，就是如果發生戰爭的時候可以揹著這個緊急避難包到臨時避難處去做避難，不單單是發生戰爭，像最近我們的地震頻傳嘛，尤其是花蓮大地震之後，我想有很多民眾都開始重視防災的準備。可是一般人的心理都是這樣，當我遇到地震的時候，我才會想到要來準備避難包，連本席自己本身也曾經經歷過921大地震，我記得當初發生地震的時候，大概有一、兩年的時間，我在家裡大概都會準備避難包，可是一段時間過去之後可能就忘記了。我記得以前我還會換裡面的水或是餅乾、乾糧之類的，可是一、兩年過去之後，因為沒地震了，地震可能沒有那麼大，所以後來就忘記這件事情。可是我們處在臺灣這樣的一個位置，不管是戰略位置也好，或是說地震、風災頻繁的地理位置來講，我們都很需要用到這個避難包，所以我們就在想要怎麼樣讓國人隨時有做好這個準備。像之前我看到青年日報在去年的時候有推出跟國軍周邊文創商品有關的一系列產品，這個產品推出來之後其實引起很大的迴響，我看到他們有推迷彩拖鞋、迷彩襪、貓窩等等，銷售情況都非常不錯，我有在想國防部有沒有想過要來做聯名款的避難包，讓民眾可以隨時注意到，其實國防部推出的避難包是我們必須隨時、隨身來做準備的，請問國防部有沒有這樣子的打算？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，誠如委員剛剛所講的，我們得到一句話的驗證，就是人無遠慮必有近憂，所以誠如委員剛剛所講的，在狀況發生以後維持一陣子，但慢慢就淡化了，淡化不代表他不注意，而是因為環境慢慢的造成了疏忽，國防部有在思考這個問題。事實上我們發這個避難包也好或什麼急救包，那等於是一個樣品、一個樣板啦，就是你可以利用這個來做發揮，所以我期望是能養成一個習慣，譬如有人有登山習慣，這個背包他也能用啊，把簡單的東西放在裡面，讓它跟他的生活能夠結合在一道的話，就不會產生你講的，狀況來了想到了，狀況過了、久了又要重來，國防部在思考這個問題時也一定是朝這一方面的。"],["羅委員美玲：是，因為我看到全民國防應變手冊裡面只有建議清單，當然我們在一般的電商平臺裡面也有所謂的套裝避難包，可是就像我剛才所提到的，必須等到有事情發生，地震發生或風災發生才會想到這個東西，平常會覺得這東西跟你沒有什麼關係，所以我在想國防部是不是也可以用像剛才我所提到的青年日報推出文創商品的方式來推這個部分，讓國人能夠意識到，這部分國防部也在推，而且是用比較有趣的方式讓大家注意到，我想這部分國防部可以試著來做，這是本席提出的一個建議啦！"],["邱部長國正：這應該可以的。"],["羅委員美玲：OK。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員，我們會儘量把它結合在一道，所謂寓教於樂，這不見得要教於樂，但最起碼……"],["羅委員美玲：應該是融入我們的生活。"],["邱部長國正：對，融入生活就很自然，我們朝這方面努力。"],["羅委員美玲：好，謝謝部長，辛苦了，謝謝。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請王定宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-13","speakers":["馬文君","林楚茵","黃仁","陳永康","羅美玲","王定宇","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","李柏毅","洪孟楷","羅智強","林憶君","王鴻薇","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢（含秘密會議）","agenda_id":"1133001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.5372187500000001,"end":2.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.8953437500000003,"end":4.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.46784375,"end":13.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.649093750000002,"end":20.247218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.43284375,"end":120.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.10909375000001,"end":144.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.58221875,"end":203.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.27346875,"end":204.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.31534375,"end":221.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.51534375000003,"end":221.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.73471875,"end":236.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.14659375000002,"end":232.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.80409375000002,"end":271.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.56659375000004,"end":284.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.95034375,"end":274.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.32409375000003,"end":291.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.63096875,"end":317.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.78534375000004,"end":302.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.95409375,"end":302.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.97096875,"end":303.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.95596875,"end":356.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.46909375,"end":329.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.80659375000005,"end":365.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.25659375000004,"end":367.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.56034375,"end":365.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.06221875,"end":367.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.73721875,"end":387.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.71721875000003,"end":402.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.09034375000005,"end":409.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.16096875000005,"end":423.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.65721875,"end":421.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.71596875,"end":434.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.79846875000004,"end":446.83034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.20159375000003,"end":449.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.78346875000005,"end":480.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.31034375,"end":504.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.53221875,"end":493.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.96471875000003,"end":514.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":515.7478437500001,"end":547.3547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.73034375,"end":519.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.7978437500001,"end":519.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.9665937500001,"end":520.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.70909375,"end":620.7778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":621.70596875,"end":660.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":660.7040937500001,"end":673.7822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":664.72034375,"end":664.9565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":666.5090937500001,"end":666.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":673.7822187500001,"end":674.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.01846875,"end":685.6453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.7297187500001,"end":686.8603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.1809687500001,"end":688.6828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.17221875,"end":714.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":714.8728437500001,"end":756.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":720.15471875,"end":720.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":754.76534375,"end":767.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":757.11096875,"end":758.0559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":761.1103437500001,"end":762.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":765.2278437500001,"end":765.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":766.37534375,"end":768.4509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":767.9109687499999,"end":771.7078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":771.6740937500001,"end":773.6147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":772.48409375,"end":773.2097187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.669,"end":0.989,"text":"邱國正報告"},{"start":13.703,"end":16.364,"text":"昨天傳出了潛艦國造專案召集人黃淑光上將正式向蔡英文總統請辭我想在這段時間她真的承受了很大的壓力身心俱疲所以選擇在這個階段性的任務完成之後提出了這個請辭"},{"start":33.87,"end":40.934,"text":"當然這個讓國人感到非常的不捨那在這裡我也要向黃曙光趙主任說一聲謝謝感謝他對國家的這個付出那接下來我想請教的是有關於這個國防自主那在談這個議題以前我們之前有看到有一份報導就是美國眾議院它有一個所謂的Tiger Team"},{"start":58.464,"end":58.504,"text":"：羅美玲"},{"start":74.71,"end":74.75,"text":"﹚羅美玲議員﹚"},{"start":99.332,"end":99.352,"text":"請問部長"},{"start":121.398,"end":141.064,"text":"跟委員講得很對,有時候其他國家戰爭會連動到其他國家,不管是經濟或者武器採購方面,的確會影響進度。但美方之所以成立這個老五小組,當初我們在逐年編列預算要採購當中,的確有一點點延宕的。"},{"start":144.705,"end":172.336,"text":"但我們不光是這個老虎小組成立之前我們有作為他成立以後我們更加作為的密切比如說我們一有延宕了我們一定透過各種管道不是軍方跟他交接透過外交部我們駐美團我們都有代表還有透過各種管道哪怕會議我們都會提出來在這幾年當然有延宕了但是都在進步當中而且基本上來講的話"},{"start":173.416,"end":189.282,"text":"可能就講說大家誤會我們又要推延,因為2025它本來要交多少的,2026要交多少,可能變成2025交一部分,把後面的延到2026,但最後截止的日期都不會變的。"},{"start":190.282,"end":190.382,"text":"﹚羅美玲"},{"start":205.39,"end":220.84,"text":"用各種管道讓我們的軍購能夠如期來獲得以便一搭上這全案的推動當中不光只等待這個設施武器我們連同人員的訓練一樣能夠同步而行"},{"start":221.76,"end":236.011,"text":"是部長因為您這有提到就是說在期限以前所有的軍購的這些設備其實都還會如期在期限以前交付可是像美國眾議院他這邊有提到說很有可能"},{"start":237.072,"end":237.192,"text":"﹚羅美玲"},{"start":267.672,"end":290.984,"text":"我們會因為溝通,然後讓他們如期來交付這些武器嗎?是期望,可是有可能當然我們要把目標達到,要透過很多方法但我跟委員報告,我們不推脫,因為我們做建軍備戰的工作備戰的概念就是說,我現在有什麼,一旦發生戰爭,我這些就要用"},{"start":291.744,"end":312.76,"text":"所以你建軍是未來你採購與否或生產與否那是未來但我不能講戰爭在這個當中不要發生啊萬一裝備還沒有來那怎麼辦我們備戰是每年都修訂計畫原因在哪裡呢就是為了要預防假如沒有辦法如期來獲得的話我現有的裝備還是要去應付當時的狀況這個是不會變的"},{"start":318.027,"end":318.227,"text":"羅美玲議員"},{"start":338.22,"end":339.08,"text":"這部分可以答覆一下嗎?"},{"start":368.894,"end":386.702,"text":"蘇委員很簡單跟您說明第一個就是軍售不是我們從美方獲得或提升我們戰力的唯一手段事實上這兩年透過其他各種不同的軍事援助方式不斷的在加強我們的相關戰力我想委員也從媒體相關報導都可以獲知第二個部分就是"},{"start":388.683,"end":408.679,"text":"針對現在所有正在進行中的軍售案我們跟美方的Tiger Team包含它的眾議院的Tiger Team我們都有做很密切的聯繫2027年只是一個客觀的觀察的數據但是我們都盡量希望能夠去在加強美國國防工業韌性的狀況下去盡量提前我們所有軍售裝備的交付"},{"start":410.202,"end":431.002,"text":"我之前也看到媒體在說其實台灣的態度好像就是在軍購延宕這個部分態度上來講的話是比較軟弱的你們對這個部分有什麼說法嗎?就是我們不夠積極這部分有時候好像講軟弱是一個表達可能口吻好像要稍微微軟一點但我一直覺得講說有的禮職氣不僅要壯"},{"start":434.986,"end":459.535,"text":"理直氣和只要能夠達到目標都是談的一個手段所以假如說片面你看你不夠硬嘛你要硬起來要大聲的跟人家對抗我覺得我目的就要獲得但用什麼方法因人而異因階段而異我們也有用硬的一部分但沒有訴諸於公開所以我覺得講這也是一個"},{"start":460.895,"end":461.195,"text":"：羅美玲"},{"start":480.91,"end":503.579,"text":"謝謝部長我在想我們小英總統講過備戰才能夠避戰能戰才能夠止戰所以我們臺灣一直以來態度就是說我們不主動求戰部長你也曾經說過可是歷史的經驗告訴我們下跪跟妥協是不能夠帶來這個和平所以這個不管是對外軍購或是國防自主這部分我想都是臺灣"},{"start":505.14,"end":514.42,"text":"正確尤其是國防自主這部分是我們台灣正確要走的這個道路尤其是南韓我們看到南韓的例子非常的非常讓我們覺得說非常的明確"},{"start":515.799,"end":515.839,"text":"﹚羅美玲"},{"start":540.587,"end":540.627,"text":"羅美玲議員"},{"start":565.234,"end":565.394,"text":"﹚羅美玲"},{"start":585.051,"end":585.091,"text":"．羅美玲"},{"start":606.732,"end":606.972,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":621.735,"end":621.775,"text":"﹚羅美玲議員﹚"},{"start":647.652,"end":652.656,"text":"我跟委員報陳副委員剛剛所講的我們得到一句話驗證人無遠慮必有盡憂所以陳副委員剛剛講的一旦這個狀況發生以後再維持一陣子慢慢就淡化"},{"start":674.07,"end":674.15,"text":"﹚羅美玲﹚"},{"start":689.198,"end":689.238,"text":"﹚羅美玲"},{"start":711.533,"end":734.811,"text":"國防部在這一方面思考這個問題也一定是朝這一方面是因為我看到這個全民國防應變手冊裡面我們只有建議清單那當然我們在一般的這個電商平台裡面有所謂的這個套裝的這個避難包可是就像我剛才所提到等你有事情發生地震發生風災發生你才會想到這個東西可是平常你會覺得這個東西跟你沒有什麼關係"},{"start":735.652,"end":760.761,"text":"所以我想說國防部這部分是不是可以用比較就像剛才我所提到的像青年日報他們推的這個文創商品的方式來推這個部分讓國人能夠意識到就是說這部分國防部也在推而且是有比較有趣的方式讓大家注意到我想這部分的話國防部可以試著來做這是本席給予的一個建議是謝謝委員所以我們也請他把它結合再一套"},{"start":761.521,"end":762.022,"text":"謝謝部長 辛苦了 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151250","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151250","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627b324931fb706aa6bf65493343f37da33c5dab72e655c1c94b4a4c75fd7d343585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:35:54 - 10:47:41","影片長度":"00:11:47","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員黃健豪等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條及第二百八十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（七）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（九）、（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":707,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:47:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:35:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":726,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時36分）謝謝主席，大家都辛苦了，有請蔡次長。"],["主席：請蔡次長。"],["蔡次長碧仲：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：次長，辛苦了！今天在討論兒虐案件重刑化，加重刑責是不是萬靈丹，是不是唯一的解方，今天一早很多委員都有表達意見，我稍後也會就教次長，我要先針對上週國會非常遺憾發生了首例的投票舞弊事件，就法律論法律，我想要跟次長進行一下探討。上週4月12日無論如何在中華民國國會的歷史上是記上一筆，而且非常遺憾是負面的案例，在針對反年金改革法案復議案表決時，史上第一次有立委不在臺灣、不在立法院，人甚至是隔海在中國，但是卻被隔海投票了。這位委員未出席、未簽到卻有表決紀錄，在這裡我要清楚說明一下，立法院投票有三關，第一關，立委本人要出席簽到。第二關，議事人員核對立委本人身分，在現場座位為您插上表決卡。第三關是立委本人按鈕就投票的意志為之，進行按鈕表決。當然我們也不否認過去國會確實都有陋習，不分藍綠，還包括時代力量，確實發生過委員在場，但是稍稍離席，所以坐在隔壁的委員代為按鈕，這是過去立法委員確實都發生的，包括本席，所以我也深自檢討。我們在第10屆以後更為嚴格的來進行國會各政黨的自我要求，現在的代按事件已經相對非常少，但是這一次事件的發生是人不在場、沒有簽到，竟然有表決卡，所以這是不可同日而語的，這也涉及了法律上的認定。","韓國瑜院長已經經過初步調查，誰背鍋呢？議事人員來背鍋，當天委員不在場、沒簽到，但是表決卡卻發出去了，而且插入表決的事情，韓院長說這是議事人員的疏失，韓院長已經定調不存在立委代領投票卡或是冒領表決卡之情事。對於這樣的調查結果，我們當然覺得非常的遺憾，畢竟是不是有立委對議事人員予以施壓，或只是單純議事人員的疏失，這當中的認定界限，如果是由法院判決就有待好好討論了，因為每一個證人、當事人都要調來問。但現在的問題是怪了！代按的立法委員是誰，這個重要的關係者是誰不知道！如果把這樣的違法行為移送到法院、地檢署的話，一定是相關的當事人都要被叫去問，包括涉及的議事人員以及立委，次長，對不對？"],["蔡次長碧仲：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：雖然這個事情有調查，不過結果卻沒辦法解決，以你個人來看，這樣初步的調查結果，對於當事人、涉案者是不是很清楚少了一塊，就是那個按鈕的立委是誰，就辦案的經驗上？"],["蔡次長碧仲：跟委員報告，立法院對於如果有涉及到刑責的案件，立法院內部當然會做行政調查。"],["吳委員思瑤：我知道，這個稍後會跟你請教。"],["蔡次長碧仲：但是如果有涉及到刑事責任，偵查機關就要來偵查這個代按投票按鈕行使表決行為……"],["吳委員思瑤：假設現在已經在偵查程序了，就這個事件上，當事人除了議事人員還會有誰？還會傳誰？"],["蔡次長碧仲：這個部分是這樣……"],["吳委員思瑤：當然會傳涉及的立委嘛。"],["蔡次長碧仲：第一個，在場之人包括所謂的立委、關係人等，有具體案件形成之後，會依照客觀的證據來調查。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝次長的回答，客觀程序認定的當事人有誰？就是議事人員plus可能涉案的立委，這是基本的。我當然不會為難你就立委國會自治的範疇，但是就法律來論法律，依據刑法第十五章「偽造文書印文罪」中的第二百二十條規定，我想問你的是，表決卡代為行使、被插卡、被投票的投票紀錄，在立法院是用按鈕、是用電子計票的方式，是不是就構成刑法第二百二十條，錄音、錄影或電磁紀錄所認定的準公文書範圍，是不是？"],["蔡次長碧仲：透過按鈕投票的方式來行使表決權，依照刑法第二百二十條第二項的規定，是藉由機器或電腦的處理所顯示，足以表示其用意之證明，該等電磁紀錄以文書論，構成準文書。"],["吳委員思瑤：它確實就構成，它就是公文書的範圍，謝謝次長。有第二百二十條的認定之後，進入第二百十四條的討論，明知為不實之事項，而使公務人員登載於職務上所掌之公文書，足以生損害於公眾或他人者，處三年以下有期徒刑、拘役或一萬五千元以下罰金，所以這也構成刑法使公務員登載不實的可能，對不對？"],["蔡次長碧仲：這個案件將來的調查結果還可能涉及到刑法第二百十條的偽造文書罪。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝，就是刑法第二百十一條偽造、變造公文書罪。"],["蔡次長碧仲：至於委員所講到的個案中是不是成立第二百十四條使公務員登載不實罪嫌，這要看紀錄投票結果的公務員有沒有審查權，也就是你按了以後，他有沒有去審查投票人員的身分與投票情形的義務，依照具體的事證來判斷。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝次長的說明。依照刑法規定，不管是第二百十四條或第二百十一條，或是剛剛所適用的前提第二百二十條的準公文書認定範疇，雖然現在還在調查中，但是不在場被投票的行為在刑法的偽造文書是不是構成使公務員登載不實，是不是構成討論的法律援引適用是沒有問題的。","一般公民在投票的時候，任何一個對公職人員、對公投的投票，適用的罰法是刑法第一百四十六條和第一百四十七條，妨礙投票、發生不正確的結果或變造投票之結果，或者是妨礙或擾亂投票者，我把這個法律拿出來對應，當然國會不適用這個部分，國會是國會自治的投票行為，但是在一般投票、公民投票上會援引的、會妨礙的是刑法第一百四十六條、第一百四十七條的結果，這說明了什麼？變造或是不正確的投票結果去影響他，或者是涉及妨礙、擾亂，一般公民被施予的是兩年以下有期徒刑，沒有因為立委比較大，所以我們適用的罰則就比較輕，我是用不同的法來援引刑罰的量刑量度。","接下來，有關國會自治，我們當然用內規來優先處理，立法委員行為法第七條第七款，脅迫他人為議事之作為或不作為；以及第九款，對依法行使職權議事人員做不當之要求或干擾。就這個案子，除了懲處被初步認定有疏失的議事人員之外，立法院也應當啟動紀律委員會來查明立委是不是有涉案的責任，這個是立法院的內規，法非常地清楚，這就不是您可以過問的層級。","最後，現在國會改革，民主進步黨針對立法委員行為法加重了、完備了、更為嚴謹了對於立委的自律規範，民主進步黨提出立法委員行為法第三十條第一項的修正，如果經立法院紀律委員會調查、審議，作成處分之建議，提報院會決定，院會合意認為要告發，就有涉及刑事責任者，可以經院會移送該管檢察機關依法辦理。","我在這裡花了時間來探究這些法律的秩序、法律的規範，還有不同精神的援引，就是要說，如果要國會改革、如果要維護國會尊嚴，我請朝野委員一起來支持民進黨所提出的立法委員行為法的規範，唯有這樣，才可以讓涉及刑事責任的部分，可以有我們自己的法規來直接告發，這就適用於上週五的冒名投票行為，如果立法院的紀律沒有辦法清楚地調查，那就移到檢調、檢察機關、司法機關，去傳喚相關的證人也好，被告也好，包括議事人員，包括可能涉案的委員。我花一點時間來做這些論述，再一次請大家來支持民主進步黨強化國會自律與課責的立法委員行為法修法，也籲請立法院韓國瑜院長，目前的調查顯然是缺了很重要的一塊，即是不是有立委涉入這個部分，社會也還在期待一個清楚的查明。謝謝主席、謝謝次長。"],["主席：下一位請陳俊宇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-13","speakers":["吳宗憲","傅崐萁","廖偉翔","王育敏","徐欣瑩","陳超明","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","黃國昌","翁曉玲","黃健豪"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員徐巧芯等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員廖偉翔等19人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等20\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八\n十六條及第二百八十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員柯志恩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)\n委員陳超明等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.9790937500000005,"end":12.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.09221875,"end":13.193468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.193468750000001,"end":13.227218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.227218750000002,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.244093750000001,"end":13.649093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.649093750000002,"end":13.665968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.665968750000001,"end":13.699718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.699718750000002,"end":13.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.73346875,"end":13.969718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.969718750000002,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.037218750000001,"end":14.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.25659375,"end":14.459093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.459093750000001,"end":16.230968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.813468750000002,"end":15.960968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.230968750000002,"end":16.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.63596875,"end":17.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.72409375,"end":19.875968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.20909375,"end":48.664718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.88409375,"end":21.934718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.20471875,"end":23.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.96721875,"end":30.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.23221875,"end":35.282843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.33534375,"end":60.595343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.000343750000006,"end":66.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.29471875,"end":70.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.88909375,"end":75.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.66471875,"end":78.76971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.10721875,"end":94.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.05409375,"end":103.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.25096875000001,"end":112.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.55346875000001,"end":114.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.57846875000001,"end":117.95346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.45971875000001,"end":134.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.72721875000002,"end":147.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.97409375,"end":161.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.58784375000002,"end":166.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.68846875,"end":170.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.46846875,"end":176.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.12971875000002,"end":188.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.72721875000002,"end":190.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.07284375,"end":192.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.79409375,"end":196.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.13096875000002,"end":202.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.85159375,"end":213.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.10721875000002,"end":215.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.45284375000003,"end":239.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.01034375,"end":240.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.58409375000002,"end":241.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.63034375,"end":245.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.84909375,"end":246.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.72221875000002,"end":257.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.94846875,"end":259.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.66971875,"end":259.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.70346875,"end":261.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.65659375,"end":266.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.34784375000004,"end":268.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.79471875,"end":277.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.78596875,"end":274.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.65409375,"end":284.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.88971875000004,"end":287.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.32346875,"end":291.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.23846875000004,"end":293.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.32284375,"end":292.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.65596875,"end":296.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.73596875000004,"end":296.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.52471875000003,"end":298.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.46534375000005,"end":305.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.08034375,"end":305.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.22784375000003,"end":307.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.94909375000003,"end":309.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.10096875,"end":322.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.91284375000004,"end":328.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.65471875000003,"end":332.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.67096875000004,"end":359.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.87346875000003,"end":379.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.47159375,"end":368.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.81284375,"end":370.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.29284375000003,"end":379.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.29221875,"end":381.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.82784375,"end":405.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.65534375000004,"end":414.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.80721875,"end":405.94221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.73846875000004,"end":415.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.97034375000004,"end":415.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.35846875000004,"end":416.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.72534375000004,"end":420.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.82659375000003,"end":418.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.27346875,"end":431.28846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.50784375,"end":442.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.59471875,"end":442.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.05034375,"end":444.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.95721875000004,"end":455.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.48284375000003,"end":457.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.79471875,"end":459.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.07721875000004,"end":460.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.37659375000004,"end":471.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.68721875000006,"end":472.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.67409375000005,"end":476.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.18846875,"end":478.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.02346875,"end":485.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.38971875000004,"end":485.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.96346875,"end":491.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.59971875,"end":519.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.1015937500001,"end":522.3459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.9197187500001,"end":530.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.98596875,"end":531.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.4709687500001,"end":533.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.2765937500001,"end":537.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.60096875,"end":538.6472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.4909687500001,"end":549.8015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.57784375,"end":551.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.11346875,"end":552.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.4422187499999,"end":555.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.0747187500001,"end":559.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.99409375,"end":561.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.3059687500001,"end":573.9328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.89471875,"end":586.7747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.09534375,"end":593.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.41909375,"end":596.1740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.6297187499999,"end":600.6965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.03409375,"end":605.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.4678437499999,"end":610.5009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.59784375,"end":613.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.13346875,"end":629.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.73846875,"end":637.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.56846875,"end":638.5134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.15471875,"end":642.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.76596875,"end":649.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.1953437500001,"end":660.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.04159375,"end":661.4465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.80096875,"end":668.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.63534375,"end":674.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.69346875,"end":707.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":704.69721875,"end":704.96721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.981,"end":11.067,"text":"條文刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":21.283,"end":48.375,"text":"辛苦了今天在額略的案件重刑化要加重刑責是不是萬靈丹是不是唯一的解方今天一早很多委員都表達意見我稍後也會就教於次長那我先要針對我們上週國會非常遺憾發生了首例的投票舞弊事件就法律論法律我想要跟次長進行一下探討好下一頁"},{"start":50.393,"end":78.299,"text":"上週四月十二號無論如何在中華民國國會的歷史上是記上一筆而且非常遺憾是負面的案例在針對反年金改革法案的復議案表決時史上第一次有立委人不在台灣不在立法院人甚至是隔海在中國但是卻被隔海投票了"},{"start":79.235,"end":103.172,"text":"所以這位委員他未出席未簽到卻有表決記錄在這裡我要清楚說明一下在立法院投票有三關第一關就是立委本人要出席簽到第二關議事人員和對立委的本人身份在現場座位上為您插上表決卡"},{"start":104.335,"end":133.875,"text":"第三關就是立委本人按鈕就投票的意志來為之進行按鈕的表決當然我們也不否認過去國會確實都有陋習不分藍綠還包括時代力量大家都確實發聲過委員在場但是稍稍離席所以隔壁座的委員代為按鈕這是過去立法委員確實都發聲的包括本席"},{"start":134.835,"end":161.296,"text":"所以我也深自檢討我們在第十屆以後更為嚴格的來進行國會各政黨的自我要求所以現在的代案事件已經相對非常少但是這一次的事件發生是人不在場沒有簽到竟然有表決卡所以這是不可同日而遇的所以它就涉及了法律上的認定下一頁"},{"start":162.625,"end":164.987,"text":"那韓國瑜院長也已經經過初步的調查那誰背鍋呢?議事人員來背鍋當天委員不在場沒牽到但是表決卡卻發出去了而且插入了表決"},{"start":178.171,"end":196.109,"text":"條文修正草案．一）委員韓院長說這是議事人員的疏失韓院長已經定調了他不存在立委帶領投票卡或是冒領表決卡的情勢對於這樣的調查結果我們當然覺得非常的遺憾"},{"start":197.196,"end":202.038,"text":"二）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．"},{"start":216.979,"end":239.052,"text":"誰代案的這個立法委員這個重要的關係者是誰不知道我說如果把這樣一個違法的行為到法院到地檢署或到法院去的時候一定是相關當事人都要被叫去問包括議事人員涉及的議事人員包括涉及的立委嘛對不對次長"},{"start":240.669,"end":268.315,"text":"所以說這個有調查但是這個結構沒有辦法來改觀您個人來看這樣初步的調查結果對於當事人涉案者是不是很清楚了少了一塊就是那個按鈕的立委是誰就一個辦案的經驗上各位跟委員報告立法院對於如果有涉及到刑責的這樣的案件"},{"start":269.844,"end":290.471,"text":"立法院自己內部當然可以做刑事調查但是如果有涉及到刑事責任這個偵查機關就要來偵查這個代案投票按鈕假設現在已經在偵查的程序了當事人在這個事件上除了議事人員還會有誰?"},{"start":292.284,"end":297.287,"text":"三）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":308.012,"end":308.452,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":323.973,"end":335.863,"text":"我當然不會為難您就立委國會自治的範疇但是就法律來論法律我們刑法的第15章偽造文書應文罪裡頭第220條我想問您這樣一個表決卡代為刑事被插卡被投票"},{"start":346.152,"end":349.294,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及"},{"start":376.312,"end":379.114,"text":"三）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案 案 覆程准文書 覆程准文書"},{"start":406.718,"end":430.113,"text":"這個案件如果將來調查結果他還可能涉及到刑法第二一零的偽造文書罪。好下一頁謝謝就是在這裡刑法二一零的偽造變造公文書罪。至於委員所講到說各案中是不是成立214條使公務員登載不實罪嫌這要看記錄投票結果的公務員"},{"start":431.793,"end":440.941,"text":"有無審查權,也就是說你按了以後他有沒有去審查投票人員的身份跟投票情形的義務依照具體的事證來判斷。"},{"start":443.597,"end":472.578,"text":"謝謝次長的說明所以依刑法不管是214條或211條或是剛剛所適用的前提220條的準公文書的認定的範疇這種當然現在還在調查中不在場被投票的行為就是在刑法偽造文書是不是構成使公務員登載不實是不是構成討論的法律的援引適用是沒有問題的好那下一頁"},{"start":474.741,"end":497.651,"text":"如果以一般的公民在投票一席,任何一個對公職人員、對公投的投票適用的法、法、事、刑法146條跟147條,妨礙投票發生不正確的結果或變造投票之結果,或者是妨礙或擾亂投票者,"},{"start":498.371,"end":517.27,"text":"我把這個法律拿出來對應其實我當然不是說國會因為國會不適用這一個部分國會是國會自治的投票行為但是現在以一般的投票在公民的投票上他會援引的他會妨礙的是刑法146 147條的這個結果所以這說明了什麼"},{"start":522.975,"end":543.683,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12屆議員黃健豪等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院廖"},{"start":552.182,"end":573.369,"text":"那下一頁國會自治我們當然用內規來優先處理立法院的行為法裡頭立法委員行為法的第七條跟第九條脅迫他人為議事之作為或不作為以及第九款對依法行使職權議事人員做不當之要求或干擾"},{"start":574.929,"end":593.226,"text":"就這個案子除了懲處被認定初步認定有疏失的意識人員之外立法院也應當啟動紀律委員會來查明立委是不是有涉案的責任這個是立法院的內規法非常的清楚這就不是您可以過問的層級那最後一頁下一頁"},{"start":594.792,"end":609.271,"text":"現在國會改革民主進步黨針對立法委員行為法就加重了完備了更為嚴謹了對於立委的自律的規範民主進步黨提出立法委員行為法第30條"},{"start":611.653,"end":628.251,"text":"第一項的修正。如果經立法院紀律委員會調查審議做成處分之建議提報院會決定,立法委員的院會合意認為要告發就有涉及刑事責任者可以經院會來移送該管檢察機關依法辦理。"},{"start":629.753,"end":632.014,"text":"二）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具"},{"start":649.344,"end":666.668,"text":"只有這樣才可以讓我們涉及刑事責任的可以有自己的法規直接來告罰這就會適用在上週五的冒名投票的行為如果立法院的紀律沒有辦法清楚的調查那就一道檢調檢查機關司法機關去傳喚相關的證人也好"},{"start":674.73,"end":684.953,"text":"三）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二"},{"start":698.397,"end":700.4,"text":"條文刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案 。"}]}},{"id":"151249","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151249","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627fec2f765e9a05da68f48eb7d2985ecdbc5dab72e655c1c94182b5bed1764569a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"10:35:27 - 10:43:07","影片長度":"00:07:40","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。【第四案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[15,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":460,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:43:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:35:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":419,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（10時35分）謝謝主席。我想請一下鍾副主委。"],["主席：請鍾副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：鄭委員好！"],["鄭委員正鈐：副主委好！我們在113年原住民綜合發展基金裡頭針對禁伐補償的預算是多少錢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：總共21億。"],["鄭委員正鈐：21億嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我看了整個109年到113年的決算數，在111年決算數已經是21億3,800萬，這麼多錢！但我們在112、113年的預算數都還是21億，顯然這個預算數已經不足以因應111年的決算數了。我想問一下，112年的決算數應該已經出來了，請問112年的決算數是多少錢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：112年的決算數是22.7億。"],["鄭委員正鈐：22.7億嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：那不足的部分怎麼處理？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我們用基金裡面去勻支。"],["鄭委員正鈐：用基金裡面勻支再去處理嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是、是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我為什麼特別提到這個狀態？既然是預算決算的問題，我們希望預算能夠更精確，因為已經從111年就看到這個預算數是不足的，我們希望預算數能夠逐年去提高。","今天我們是針對原住民保留地禁伐補償條例的修正，目前提出來的都是委員的版本，沒有院版的，那可能就表示行政院、原民會是支持我們委員提出來的版本，我這樣理解可以嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：當然提升這個部分對族人是受益。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，是受益嘛……"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以基本上我可以理解原民會、行政院是支持我們委員提出的版本，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：如果修法通過，我們會照這個去做籌編。"],["鄭委員正鈐：如果修法通過，就照這個版本去做。","接下來我想問一個情況，針對禁伐補償，我看到了一個點，就是在我們原民會和林業署的回應當中都提到，要將補償金區分為有撫育經營者6萬元與沒有撫育經營者3萬元，是這樣子的情況嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這個部分是不是林業署來做一個說明？"],["鄭委員正鈐：請林業署回應一下。"],["主席：請林業署的副署長。"],["林副署長澔貞：這些配套細節我們是希望再跟原民會做一些討論，當然在林木……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以還沒有討論就先提出來你們的建議了……"],["林副署長澔貞：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：還分成有撫育經營者與未撫育經營者。禁伐補償條例既然是禁伐，為什麼還會有有撫育經營者與未撫育經營者？"],["林副署長澔貞：先跟委員報告一下，您拿到的這個部分是我們第一版的農業部說明，我們有做了一些修正……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，修正情況是怎麼樣？"],["林副署長澔貞：我們修正的情況就是剛剛我報告的部分，對於擴大範圍或是提升金額的部分，我們是支持的，不過有一些細部的整個森林經營上的配套措施，我們還想跟原民會來做一些討論。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，因為我們希望既然是禁伐補償的條例，就不會出現有撫育經營的狀態，如果是這個情況，是不是因為我們在整個原保地當中禁伐區和非禁伐區的定義不夠清楚，讓整個禁伐區和非禁伐區當中是混雜的狀態，才會出現禁伐區當中還會有撫育經營的狀態，所以我們希望把這個部分釐清楚。","我想請問一下，目前我們整個原保地總共有多少範圍，面積有多大？禁伐區有多大？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前是7.2萬公頃。"],["鄭委員正鈐：這是禁伐區嘛！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對，目前有……"],["鄭委員正鈐：整個原保地有多大？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：26萬公頃多。"],["鄭委員正鈐：26萬公頃裡面有7.2萬是禁伐區，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是、是、是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我想問一下，去年禁伐區裡面有多少面積拿到我們這個禁伐補償，然後有多少的原住民得到這樣子的補償？去年的數字是多少？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：去年得到補償的人是4萬5,700多人。"],["鄭委員正鈐：面積呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：面積是6.7萬公頃。"],["鄭委員正鈐：6.7萬公頃。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以6.7萬公頃與7.2萬公頃只差0.5萬公頃，還沒有拿到補償，是這個意思嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：抱歉！我剛剛弄錯，去年（112年）有補償的是7.2萬公頃。"],["鄭委員正鈐：是，那整個禁伐區的面積是多大？"],["高專門委員文斌：跟委員報告兩件事情，第一個、禁伐補償是申請制的……"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解。"],["高專門委員文斌：所以他每一年必須申請之後，經檢測合格，我們再來發放，最主要是行政院在108年提出修法之後，我們擴大禁伐區域，納入都市計畫區、水質水源保護區這一些部分，就目前整個原住民保留地27萬公頃裡面，以林業用地來講，大概有16萬公頃，私有的原住民保留地，到今年為止提出申請的大概有8.2萬公頃，不過因為還要經過檢測合格……"],["鄭委員正鈐：8.2萬公頃……"],["高專門委員文斌：大概是這個數字……"],["鄭委員正鈐：所以能夠得到補償的部分是他們提出申請之後，我們再來看是不是符合整個禁伐的條件，對不對？因為碳權現在政府正在努力的規劃當中，我相信我們的禁伐區肯定會變成我們國內碳匯很重要的一個來源，我們希望這個部分能夠加快腳步去處理，好不好？我們希望林業署和我們原民會一起針對禁伐區的碳匯部分能夠很快速的去把它釐清出來，好不好？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：林業署可以嗎？"],["林副署長澔貞：是，我們會配合原民會來作業。"],["鄭委員正鈐：好。我在想今天對於整個禁伐補償的部分，我相信大家應該都覺得，基於整個國土保育及水保的相關問題、環保的相關問題，大部分的委員應該都是支持的，剛剛副主委也提到，只要委員支持，你們就遵照辦理，對不對？就配合整個修法的狀態去執行，對不對？我們就希望原民會能夠加快腳步落實，感謝，以上，謝謝。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員的質詢，謝謝鍾副主委，謝謝林副署長。","接下來有請高金委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃捷","麥玉珍","張宏陸","許宇甄","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","王美惠","賴瑞隆","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","張智倫","張嘉郡","黃仁","謝衣鳯","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二、\n審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正\n草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例\n第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.92409375,"end":10.695968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.387843750000002,"end":12.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.99471875,"end":16.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.04534375,"end":16.450343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.450343750000002,"end":16.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.48409375,"end":16.500968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.500968750000002,"end":16.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.83846875,"end":29.258468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.47784375,"end":30.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.40159375,"end":68.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.29409375,"end":72.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.96471875,"end":73.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.68596875,"end":78.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.97221875000001,"end":79.20846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.20846875000001,"end":79.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.32659375,"end":79.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":80.27159375000001,"end":82.36409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.36409375000001,"end":84.43971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.71409375,"end":83.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.37221875,"end":85.06409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.72659375,"end":110.64659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.37221875,"end":116.95784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.70846875000001,"end":123.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.60659375,"end":123.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.97784375,"end":124.07909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.07909375000001,"end":124.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.97346875000001,"end":125.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.02409375,"end":125.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.39534375000001,"end":125.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.91846875,"end":125.96909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.96909375000001,"end":126.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.03659375000001,"end":126.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.22221875000001,"end":126.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.52596875,"end":126.61034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.61034375000001,"end":126.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.67784375000001,"end":126.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.96471875,"end":127.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":127.03221875000001,"end":130.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.82909375,"end":134.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.51221875000002,"end":150.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.18034375000002,"end":163.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.20784375000002,"end":164.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.23721875,"end":168.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":169.47284375,"end":170.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.53159375,"end":176.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.14659375000002,"end":181.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":178.34909375,"end":179.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.44534375,"end":188.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.03096875,"end":190.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.92096875000001,"end":193.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.77284375000002,"end":200.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.97846875000002,"end":201.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.71659375000002,"end":213.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.69784375,"end":216.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.92534375000002,"end":226.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.63721875000002,"end":225.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.91534375,"end":228.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.25284375,"end":247.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.96284375000002,"end":263.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.20909375,"end":281.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.14721875000004,"end":283.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.39596875,"end":283.41284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.94846875,"end":285.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":285.30284375,"end":286.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":288.17159375,"end":290.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.07409375000003,"end":296.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.18346875000003,"end":294.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.23784375,"end":311.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.95471875000004,"end":299.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":299.64659375,"end":299.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.97784375000003,"end":314.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":313.85534375000003,"end":319.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.30596875000003,"end":320.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":319.54221875,"end":319.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":319.94721875000005,"end":321.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.34784375000004,"end":321.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":321.65159375,"end":321.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.82034375,"end":321.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":321.85409375,"end":324.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.85784375000003,"end":334.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":326.05596875000003,"end":326.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":334.03784375000004,"end":335.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.63659375000003,"end":340.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.75409375000004,"end":341.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.98596875000004,"end":344.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.16659375,"end":356.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.46971875,"end":352.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.53221875,"end":362.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.91096875,"end":365.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.21846875,"end":370.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.17971875,"end":376.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.01846875,"end":382.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.73096875000005,"end":419.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.42534375,"end":420.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.42096875000004,"end":420.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.50534375,"end":423.20534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.57659375000003,"end":446.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.71221875000003,"end":448.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.10846875000004,"end":454.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.40721875,"end":455.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":456.63471875000005,"end":457.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.16596875000005,"end":460.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":460.14471875000004,"end":460.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":460.71846875000006,"end":460.83659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.959,"end":22.349,"text":"禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":31.482,"end":31.642,"text":"總共21億元 。"},{"start":50.435,"end":67.562,"text":"第六條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。七、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具第六條條文修正"},{"start":80.302,"end":87.905,"text":"禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具"},{"start":109.534,"end":113.056,"text":"立法院第11屆第1次聯席會議第2次聯席會議第3次聯席會議第4次聯席會議第5次聯席會議第6次聯席會議"},{"start":131.125,"end":136.728,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第1條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":151.275,"end":168.262,"text":"在我們人民會跟林業署這邊的一個回應當中的時候都提到了要將補償金區分為有府域經營者6萬元跟沒有府域經營者3萬元是這樣子的情況嗎?"},{"start":170.042,"end":180.788,"text":"這個部分是臨月署那個是不是臨月署來做一個請臨月署這邊回應一下我請臨月署的副署長"},{"start":183.933,"end":192.157,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":204.023,"end":222.154,"text":"禁伐補償條例,既然是禁伐為什麼還會有有賦予者經營這個部分跟未賦予者經營?這個部分我們是先跟委員報告一下因為這個部分您拿到的是我們第一版的一個"},{"start":223.635,"end":246.545,"text":"農業部的一個說明,那我們有做了一些修正。我們修正的情況就是剛剛我報告的部分,那我們是對這個部分是我們支持的,對於擴大範圍或是提升金額的部分,那不過有一些細部細部的整個的一個森林經營上的配套措施,我們還想說跟那個原民會來"},{"start":247.045,"end":250.546,"text":"禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":264.572,"end":283.005,"text":"讓整個禁伐區跟非禁伐區當中是混雜的一個狀態才會出現禁伐區當中還會有一個由府域進行的一個狀態所以我們希望把這部分把它理清楚我想請問一下目前我們整個原保地裡面總共有多少的範圍面積有多大禁伐區有多大目前是目前是7.2萬公頃"},{"start":291.224,"end":293.445,"text":"地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財"},{"start":313.018,"end":321.4,"text":"去年的數字是多少?去年的數字得到補償的人是四萬五千七百人面積呢?面積是6.7萬公頃6.7萬公頃所以6.7萬公頃跟7.2萬公頃只差0.5萬公頃還沒有拿到補償是這個意思嗎?抱歉我剛剛弄錯"},{"start":336.727,"end":361.855,"text":"去年112年有補償的是7.2萬公頃。那整個禁法區的面積是多大?跟委員報告兩件事情第一個禁法補償它是申請制的所以它每一年的這個必須申請執照金檢測合格我們來再發放那最主要是行政院在108年提出修法之後我們擴大禁法區域納入"},{"start":362.955,"end":377.668,"text":"都市計劃區水質水源保護區這部分。目前原住民保留地27萬公頃以林業用地16萬公頃私有原住民保留地到今年為止提出申請的8.2萬公頃不過還要經過檢測合格"},{"start":380.891,"end":382.312,"text":"及第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財"},{"start":406.789,"end":409.251,"text":"立法院第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具"},{"start":424.715,"end":447.824,"text":"我相信大家應該都覺得基於整個國土保育跟水保的一個相關問題環保的相關問題的時候我想大部分的委員應該都是支持的那剛剛副主委也提到只要委員支持你們就遵照辦理嘛對不對就配合整個修法的一個狀態去執行對不對"},{"start":449.164,"end":454.033,"text":"條例第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"}]}},{"id":"151248","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151248","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627d16d98f88f51faab8f48eb7d2985ecdbc5dab72e655c1c9404f966d313e88c125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:28:23 - 10:35:19","影片長度":"00:06:56","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。【第四案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[15,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":416,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:35:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:28:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":380,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時28分）謝謝主席，我們請副主委。"],["主席：有請鍾副主委，謝謝。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：副主委好。首先我要講一下，原民會其實還是很努力，因為原民會在今年1月初的時候有發布原住民保留地禁伐補償實施辦法的修正案，修正案裡面也有看到已經訂定了補償的認定基準，然後各權責辦理的期程也都有定出來，然後是竹、木覆蓋率之用詞，還有申請人的救濟程序等規定其實也都有放在裡面。我覺得這個方向很好，更能維護族人權益，也更貼近實務的需求。","我想先請教一下副主委，裡面有提到，只要這個土地經過確認竹、木覆蓋率在七成以上，而且沒有濫墾、濫伐的情事，也符合其他的標準，就應該要予以補償。請問在實務上你們一般是怎麼去認定竹、木覆蓋率？我會這樣問其實是因為，這次403的地震，各地的山地都還是有一些土石流或坍塌的情況出現，我擔心會不會因為這個天災造成樹木流失，導致自己土地的竹、木覆蓋率不到你們規定的七成，然後就拿不到相應的補償？會不會有這樣的情況？這會不會影響到一些族人在申請禁伐補償的權益呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，竹、木覆蓋率的確要到達七成，我們在113年1月8號針對這個辦法第六條做修訂，除了既有的建築物，還有道路跟農路已經沒有覆蓋的部分扣除掉之外，其他像崩塌地如果符合檢測，整體來看覆蓋率還是滿七成的話，是照樣會補助，之前只要有一部分的覆蓋率不到七成的話就完全不給經費。"],["黃委員捷：是，瞭解。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：現在是只要統整去算是一起的，所以這個部分對族人來講都有做補助。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝副主委的承諾，我就是希望要讓大家知道你們現在認定的方式，這一次的天災或許不會因此受到太大的影響，還是照原本的，其實你們認定的這個標準是更有一致性的。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：就是比較寬鬆，但還是要滿足覆蓋率達七成以上。"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。好，謝謝副主委。再來我要請教，因為農業部在今年3月的時候已經預告要修正獎勵輔導造林的辦法，裡面就有把原本規定20年每公頃獎勵金60萬，調整為6年每公頃就有60萬的獎勵金。可是這個造林的獎勵跟禁伐補償應該是要相輔相成的才對，也就是說既然現在新的造林政策已經把這個獎勵金提高，而且提高滿多倍的，我們的禁伐補償金如果沒有提高的話，是不是很可能造成有些人未來會造樹、砍樹來造林？這個是我擔心的。我想知道現在農業部跟原民會到底有沒有做跨部會的溝通？","現在農業部已經預告要修正了，我們原民會這邊是不是也應該要把禁伐補償同步地調整呢？這也是今天的主軸。所以我想要講一下，我當然是非常支持伍麗華委員的版本，但是我們院到現在都沒有版本，這是一個非常大的問題。","當然我很肯定從2016到2013，也就是說蔡政府這段時間認定的面積從2.4萬公頃到現在是7.2萬公頃，已經三倍了，然後補償金從當初的5億元到現在是22億，總共124.7億。我們都逐步在擴大範圍，也擴大了金額，可是農業部新的政策下去之後，行政院都沒有提出任何關於禁伐補償的版本。副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，目前沒有我們的版本，不過我們就整個政策的發展上……"],["黃委員捷：你們的態度跟立場是什麼？如果今天我們這四個版本就是要審了，結果院、你們都沒有版本，也沒有立場，該怎麼辦？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：我們當然是希望秉持一致性跟公平性的原則去推。"],["黃委員捷：所以呢？今天等一下我們就要進逐條了，四個委員的版本，有3萬、有5萬、有6萬，該怎麼辦？你們的態度是支持幾萬？還是你們自己的版本希望什麼是衡平性、什麼是一致性？你們的預算規模到哪裡？其實要讓大家知道啦！不是說我們今天在這邊隨便喊價就好，你們對預算的預期到底希望撥出多少來支持這件事情？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：這個的確涉及整個籌編預算的部分，目前我們禁伐補償的經費已經是22億，從今年開始是列為公務預算，114年的部分，如果修法通過之後，當然我們會按照法的規定來做籌編。"],["黃委員捷：所以你們也支持增加，態度是這樣嗎？","副主委不敢講耶！你們支不支持增加？支不支持？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：支持，樂觀其成。"],["黃委員捷：勇敢一點啦……"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，樂觀其成。"],["黃委員捷：這個不分黨派都在這邊……"],["王委員美惠：大聲喊出來啦！"],["黃委員捷：好不好？你們支不支持增加？"],["高金委員素梅：民進黨的立委都在這邊支持你了，你們還怕什麼？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，我想我們都樂觀其成。"],["黃委員捷：勇敢一點啦！對啊！其實不分黨派也都認為這個要一併檢討、一併往前走，好不好？我們就不分黨派往前……"],["王委員美惠：對啦！"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["黃委員捷：努力的讓這件事往前，這個是大家都想支持的……"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，我們會努力籌編啦！"],["黃委員捷：照顧族人的權益，並且照顧山林來守護國土，好不好？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是、是，好。"],["黃委員捷：好啦！等一下就要進逐條了，副主委還是得答復，謝謝。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是，好，謝謝黃委員，謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員建賓代）：謝謝黃捷委員的質詢，也謝謝鍾副主委。","接下來有請鄭正鈐委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃捷","麥玉珍","張宏陸","許宇甄","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","王美惠","賴瑞隆","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","張智倫","張嘉郡","黃仁","謝衣鳯","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二、\n審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正\n草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例\n第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.46409375,"end":11.978468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.552218750000002,"end":14.712218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.20596875,"end":14.560343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.17596875,"end":17.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.98596875,"end":74.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.78284375,"end":107.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.29346875,"end":102.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.96346875,"end":125.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.59346875000001,"end":129.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.05284375000002,"end":145.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.35909375,"end":142.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.57784375,"end":148.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.62846875,"end":160.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.22659375,"end":152.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.95596875,"end":156.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.17034375,"end":162.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.65971875,"end":166.30034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.60034375,"end":164.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.26659375,"end":189.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.40159375000002,"end":167.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.16159375,"end":202.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.90221875,"end":254.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.97846875000002,"end":261.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.04909375,"end":264.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.01471875000004,"end":266.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.70659375,"end":267.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.61784375,"end":273.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.64659375,"end":278.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.12659375000004,"end":281.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.22721875,"end":287.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.50909375000003,"end":295.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.90034375000005,"end":299.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.23721875,"end":301.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.57034375,"end":318.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.58034375,"end":321.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.20846875,"end":323.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.02659375,"end":326.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.54096875000005,"end":327.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.94596875,"end":327.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.35096875000005,"end":348.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.98909375,"end":350.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.48659375,"end":352.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.76846875,"end":358.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.96221875000003,"end":361.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.57346875,"end":364.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.49721875,"end":367.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.73346875000004,"end":365.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.93159375000005,"end":366.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.46284375000005,"end":370.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.69784375,"end":379.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.22034375000004,"end":382.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.68409375000005,"end":389.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.37096875000003,"end":393.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.79221875,"end":396.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.80909375000005,"end":394.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.84659375,"end":404.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.80846875000003,"end":400.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.35596875000005,"end":404.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.54159375,"end":405.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.73534375,"end":407.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.33846875,"end":411.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.62909375000004,"end":413.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.88596875,"end":416.97846875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.906,"end":13.814,"text":"條例第16條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":18.015,"end":46.927,"text":"好副主委好首先我要講一下就是原民會其實還是很努力啦因為原民會在今年1月初的時候有發佈這個原住民保留地禁法補償實施辦法的修正案那修正案裡面其實也有看到已經有訂定這個補償的認定基準然後各權責辦理的期程也都有訂出來然後竹木覆蓋率的用詞還有申請人的救濟程序這些的規定其實也都有放在裡面"},{"start":47.367,"end":73.301,"text":"我覺得這個當然方向很好可更能維護族人權益然後也更貼近實務的需求那我想先請教一下副主委裡面有提到說只要這個土地經過確認是竹木覆蓋率七成以上而且沒有濫墾濫伐的情勢也符合其他的標準就應該要予以補償請問在實務上你們一般是怎麼去認定他的這個竹木的覆蓋率"},{"start":75.834,"end":100.325,"text":"我會這樣問是因為其實是因為其實這次的403的地震啊因為各地的山地都還是有一些土石流或是坍塌的情況出現我擔心的是是不是會有因為這個天災然後樹木流失導致自己土地的竹木的覆蓋率不到你們規定的七成然後並就拿不到這個相應的補償會不會有這樣的情況"},{"start":102.646,"end":128.62,"text":"這會不會影響到一些族人在申請這些禁法補償的權益呢?根本包括竹木覆蓋率的確是要到達七成那現在我們在113年1月8號針對這個辦法有做第六條有做修訂除了既有的建築物還有道路跟農路已經是沒有被覆蓋的部分扣除掉之外其他的像崩塌地如果符合檢測它整體"},{"start":130.219,"end":145.014,"text":"整體來看如果還是滿7成的覆蓋率的話是照樣都補助那之前只要有一部分覆蓋率不到7成的話就完全就不給經費但現在是只要統整去算是一起的"},{"start":145.715,"end":147.897,"text":"審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":161.249,"end":173.194,"text":"地禁補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁補償條例第六條條文修正草案"},{"start":190.26,"end":201.556,"text":"也就是說既然現在新的造林政策已經把這個獎勵金提高而且提高蠻多倍的那我們禁伐的補償金如果沒有提高的話是不是很可能造成有些人未來會造樹砍樹來造林這個是我擔心的"},{"start":206.042,"end":213.148,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":231.124,"end":235.465,"text":"條例第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留"},{"start":255.432,"end":281.455,"text":"農業部新的政策下去之後,我們新的院版都沒有提出任何關於我們自己的禁伐補償的版本。副主委。是。目前沒有我們的版本,不過我們也當然就整個政策的發展上。那你們的態度跟立場是什麼?如果今天我們這四個版本就是要審了,結果院,你們都沒有版本也沒有立場該怎麼辦?"},{"start":283.414,"end":287.4,"text":"我們也當然希望是秉持一致性跟公平性的原則去推"},{"start":288.61,"end":315.911,"text":"所以今天等一下我們就要進主條了那裡面四個委員的版本有三萬有五萬有六萬該怎麼辦你們的態度是支持幾萬還是你們自己的版本希望什麼是橫平性什麼是一致性你們的預算的規模到哪裡其實要讓大家知道啦不是說我們今天在這邊隨便喊價就好"},{"start":316.471,"end":323.465,"text":"你們預算的預期到底希望在這件事情上面播出多少來支持這件事情。」"},{"start":328.72,"end":351.948,"text":"這個的確也涉及到整個籌變預算的部分那目前因為我們的禁法補償的金額是從經費已經是22億那從今年開始是列為公務預算那現在14年14年的部分如果說按照法如果修法通過之後當然我們會按照法的規定來做一個籌變所以你們也支持增加嗎?態度是這樣嗎?"},{"start":356.789,"end":382.069,"text":"副主委不敢講欸你們支不支持增加嗎?支不支持?支持樂觀其成勇敢一點啦這個不分黨派都在這邊好不好?你們支不支持增加?民進黨的立委都在這邊支持你了你還怕什麼?是我想我們都樂觀其成勇敢一點啦"},{"start":383.997,"end":411.442,"text":"對阿,這件事其實不分黨派都也認為這是一個要一併檢討一併一併往前走啦好不好,我們就不分黨派往前努力的讓這件事,這個都是大家都想支持的,照顧主人的權益,並且照顧這個山林來守護國土好不好。是,是,好。好啦,等一下就要進主條了,副主委還是得答覆啦,謝謝。是,謝謝黃委員,謝謝。"},{"start":414.933,"end":415.296,"text":"謝謝黃明杰委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"151247","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151247","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016277c7a11549e530a4b8f48eb7d2985ecdbc5dab72e655c1c940300be7979f504765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:21:23 - 10:28:13","影片長度":"00:06:50","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。【第四案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[15,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":410,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:28:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:21:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":340,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（10時21分）謝謝主席。有請原民會副主委。"],["主席：有請副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：黃委員早。"],["黃委員建賓：副主委早。我們今天討論禁伐補償，我想首先要謝謝已故簡東明委員的努力，讓我們今天可以在這邊討論有關我們族人的生計問題。當時立這個法的目的是為什麼？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：當然是為了國土保安以致土地被限制使用，這符合原基法第二十一條規定，因限制利用而有的補償工作。"],["黃委員建賓：對，為了保護國土安全，所以原住民土地受到限制使用，因此來補償他，對不對？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["黃委員建賓：當年禁伐補償由簡東明委員提出的時候並沒有行政院版本，而今年有這麼多委員提出，依舊還是沒有行政院版本！副主委，原民會真的要加油，真的要加油！為什麼今天我們會一直談到禁伐補助要增加這件事情？農業部今天有來吧？農業部應該很清楚在獎勵造林補助辦法裡……","農業部有人在嗎？"],["主席：請農業部的簡任技正或副署長，好嗎？請林業及自然保育署的副署長。"],["黃委員建賓：副署長，在造林補助裡，二十年可以領到60萬獎勵金，對不對？也就是第一年每公頃12萬，第二年到第六年每公頃4萬，第七年到第二十年每公頃2萬，二十年之後可以進行疏伐來販售該區的林產物，是不是？"],["林副署長澔貞：是。"],["黃委員建賓：所以一個林農可以獲得的金額應該是高於60萬的，就是補助60萬再加疏伐產值，對不對？"],["林副署長澔貞：是。"],["黃委員建賓：可是禁伐補償的林地不能做這樣的事，因為它禁伐！我們今天在這邊討論要增加的主要原因應該還是在這個地方。提高禁伐補償金額是有必要的，我想副主委也同意這一點，是不是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["黃委員建賓：104年審查禁伐補償條例的時候，你當了12年副主委應該很清楚，當時也有談到碳匯的問題。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["黃委員建賓：副主委，你對原住民地區的自然碳匯跟林業署討論的結果是什麼？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為目前有成立一個專案小組，有邀請相關部會在討論，所以目前還在討論中。"],["黃委員建賓：還在討論？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對。"],["黃委員建賓：可是都要執行了，還在討論？不是之前討論時說，新造林才有，舊林不包括嗎？是不是這樣？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為誠如剛剛所提到的，目前有一個所謂森林經營碳匯的專案活動，有跨部會的討論協商。"],["黃委員建賓：是。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：它都把它納進來，我們這部分是……"],["黃委員建賓：新的造林到底有沒有納入碳匯裡討論？相關部會可不可以說明一下？新造林的部分可以嗎？"],["林副署長澔貞：我們現在有幾個造林的方法學在環境部審查，一個是新植造林的這個部分已經通過了，一個是森林經營的方法學，還有竹林經營的方法學，正在環境部審查。審查通過以後，其實就可以依照這些規範做碳權的申請。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：再跟委員繼續報告，等相關碳匯跟溫室氣體減量的方法學定案之後，我們原民會也會邀集相關部會，針對原住民族森林碳匯的內容做一個研議。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝。你在這邊也順便談到了碳權，我要跟副主委來討論一下。副主委，你知道現在網路上出現很多課程，就是減碳、碳淨零這些相關課程上完後可以成為碳交易師、碳匯開發師、碳交易管理師，有這個事情嗎？環境部在嗎？環境部，是不是有這個課程？"],["主席：我們請環境部氣候變遷署的組長。"],["蘇組長意筠：委員好，跟委員報告，剛剛委員提到這些所謂的碳交易師、碳規劃師的部分，環境部之前已經透過新聞稿跟圖卡向大家說明，在氣候變遷因應法裡面並沒有這些職稱，也沒有這些名字，所以有提醒大家在選的時候可能要慎選這些課程內容。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝環境部的說明。副主委，現在網路宣傳很多，也有很多族人開始去上課，他會想到未來要管理我們的山林，也可以獲得這樣的工作機會，可以取得這些執照，已經有人開始在做這件事了，所以這邊也要請會裡面注意，也必須適時說明，避免我們的族人被騙。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["黃委員建賓：最後，我從剛剛聽到現在，一直在講預算、預算、預算，回到一開始本席問副主委的，為什麼我們要禁伐？因為為了要保護山林，保護山林是為了要保護國土，保護國土是要保護這塊土地上人民的生命、財產安全，是不是？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["黃委員建賓：我們一直談到預算，因為新的閣揆還沒上任，所以預算沒有辦法編列，請問副主委、請問在場所有相關部會的官員，你們會因為預算的問題而放棄國家安全嗎？而且禁伐這個案子不是今年才開始，已經施行十幾年了，這個事情本來就要討論，預算應該要增加，只不過到現在我們還在為這些事在這邊做檢討。對於這部分，副主委，我要拜託，會裡面真的要加油，各部會也能夠來協助，本席也是來自偏鄉的小孩，你要我們一群人顧著這塊土地，叫它不要開發，因為你們要保護國家，但是你卻不給它相對福利的提升，這是不公平的，我在這邊真的要鄭重呼籲，也要要求相關部會趕快來執行。","在這邊也謝謝副主委、謝謝主席，本席質詢到此。"],["主席：非常謝謝建賓委員的質詢，也謝謝官員的回應，謝謝。","繼續我們請黃捷委員質詢，在徐欣瑩委員質詢結束後休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃捷","麥玉珍","張宏陸","許宇甄","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","王美惠","賴瑞隆","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","張智倫","張嘉郡","黃仁","謝衣鳯","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二、\n審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正\n草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例\n第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.04659375,"end":11.607218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.84346875,"end":12.771593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.41221875,"end":17.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.660968750000002,"end":19.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.399093750000002,"end":21.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.71096875,"end":25.562843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.035343750000003,"end":27.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.621593750000002,"end":37.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.10096875,"end":38.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":38.82659375,"end":39.299093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.68721875,"end":40.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.492843750000006,"end":42.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.77096875,"end":45.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":46.049093750000004,"end":56.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.93346875,"end":63.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":63.88596875,"end":63.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":63.97034375000001,"end":63.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.17284375,"end":66.53534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.95721875000001,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.12971875000001,"end":74.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.24284375,"end":75.61409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.54221875,"end":76.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":77.62221875,"end":78.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.69784375,"end":80.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.46971875,"end":82.95471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.17409375000001,"end":92.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.67471875000001,"end":95.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.29034375,"end":100.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.99409375,"end":103.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.94721875,"end":104.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.74034375000001,"end":105.51659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.96784375,"end":107.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.14909375,"end":112.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.02596875,"end":116.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.97471875000001,"end":132.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":133.02284375000002,"end":133.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.32659375,"end":133.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.49096875,"end":135.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.48659375,"end":139.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.94159375,"end":143.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.71721875,"end":147.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.54784375,"end":149.02034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.37471875,"end":151.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":152.68221875,"end":152.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.13346875000002,"end":154.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.34846875000002,"end":155.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.12471875,"end":160.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.51221875000002,"end":165.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":165.60846875000001,"end":166.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.45221875000001,"end":171.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":171.97034375,"end":179.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.94409375,"end":178.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.81721875000002,"end":181.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.87596875,"end":182.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.73659375000003,"end":187.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":188.35596875000002,"end":199.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":196.38846875000002,"end":196.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":198.75096875000003,"end":202.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.74596875,"end":205.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":206.46284375000002,"end":207.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":209.29784375000003,"end":209.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.22596875000002,"end":230.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":231.18471875,"end":241.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":241.66409375,"end":244.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.08971875,"end":245.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":245.25846875000002,"end":245.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.54534375000003,"end":245.57909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.42284375000003,"end":246.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.30034375000002,"end":256.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":257.10471875,"end":267.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.44471875,"end":272.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.05159375,"end":273.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.85721875,"end":275.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.93721875,"end":294.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":289.90971875,"end":290.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":294.48284375000003,"end":296.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.82846875,"end":320.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.34346875,"end":327.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":327.87846875,"end":328.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":329.26221875000005,"end":330.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.79784375,"end":332.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":333.41346875000005,"end":334.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":335.80971875,"end":337.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":337.68284375,"end":341.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":341.64846875,"end":342.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.79596875000004,"end":343.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":343.72409375,"end":345.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":346.66034375000004,"end":349.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":350.01846875,"end":352.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":353.20784375,"end":356.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":358.99596875000003,"end":359.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":360.37971875,"end":360.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":361.24034375,"end":370.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.98971875,"end":372.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":372.90096875,"end":373.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":373.42409375,"end":374.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":374.72346875000005,"end":375.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":375.66846875000005,"end":377.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":377.40659375,"end":380.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":380.66346875000005,"end":381.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.57034375,"end":384.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.82721875000004,"end":390.75471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":391.10909375,"end":395.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":395.69909375000003,"end":396.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.55971875,"end":405.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.14471875000004,"end":410.00909375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.873,"end":11.997,"text":"及第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具"},{"start":22.785,"end":41.899,"text":"為我們今天討論的這個禁伐補償我想這當時首先我們想要也是要謝謝我們已故的簡東平委員的努力當然我們今天可以在這邊來討論這個關於我們主人的這個生計的問題那當時我們立法的目的是為什麼當時立這個法的目的是為什麼"},{"start":46.107,"end":74.324,"text":"當然是他為了國土保安然後因為這個土地限制被使用所以也符合原基法21條因為限制利用而做一個補償的一個工作對因為原住民的土地為了要保護國土的安全所以受到限制使用所以來補償他對不對所以當年禁法補償由簡東明委員提出的時候沒有行政院版本那今年有這麼多人提出依舊還是沒有行政院的版本"},{"start":75.306,"end":80.022,"text":"立法院第11屆第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第2次聯席會議"},{"start":83.263,"end":104.433,"text":"我們為什麼今天會一直談論到禁伐補償要增加這件事情我想這個農業部就要來吧農業部也很清楚知道我們這個獎勵照例補償辦法裡面農業部有在嗎我們請農業部的檢任記證或者是副署長好嗎你要請這個林業級自然保育所的副署長副署長副署長"},{"start":107,"end":130.311,"text":"副市長,我們在災民補助裡面,我們是20年可以領到60萬的獎勵金對不對?就是第一年每公頃12萬,第二年到第六年每公頃4萬,第七年到20年每公頃2萬,那20年之後他可以進行書法來販售我們的這個區裡面的林產物是不是?所以我們一個林農他可以獲得的金額是應該是高於60萬的,就是補助60萬再加書法的產業對不對?"},{"start":133.532,"end":136.715,"text":"及第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具"},{"start":154.261,"end":172.387,"text":"禁法補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條"},{"start":179.964,"end":183.407,"text":"及第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":204.006,"end":207.37,"text":"現在有幾個造林的方法學在環境部在做審查"},{"start":215.263,"end":230.208,"text":"一個是新執照林的這個部分已經通過了那一個是森林經營的方法學還有竹林的經營的方法學正在那個環境部做審查那審查通過了以後其實就可以依照這個這些的規範做探訣的申請那等整個相關攤位跟溫室氣體減量的方法學定案之後我們也會邀也會邀請相關部會針對"},{"start":241.738,"end":266.393,"text":"原住民主的森林碳會內容演繹。這沒有順便談到碳權,我們跟副主委來討論一下。副主委,你在現在網路上出現很多課程,就是可以碳減碳、碳淨零,這些相關課程上環可以成為碳交易師、碳會開發師、碳交易管理師,有這個事情嗎?環境部有這個課程。"},{"start":268.599,"end":292.953,"text":"來我們請環境部的組長氣候環境變遷署長組長來是委員好跟委員報告剛委員所提到的這些所謂的碳交易室、碳規劃室的部分那環境部在之前已經透過信用卡跟圖卡跟大家說明是在法令就是氣候變遷應應法裡面並沒有這些職稱也沒有這些名字那所以有提醒到就是大家在選的時候可能要慎選這些課程內容"},{"start":294.394,"end":303.202,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具、「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":322.392,"end":345.117,"text":"最後我們一直在我剛剛聽到現在一直在講預算預算預算回到一開始本席問副主委的為什麼要禁法因為為了要保護山林保護山林是因為要保護國土保護國土是因為要保護這塊土地讓人民的生命才安全是不是所以我們一直到談到預算"},{"start":346.701,"end":355.804,"text":"因為新的閣款還沒上任所以預算沒有辦法編列請問副主委請問在場所有相關部會的官員你們會因為預算的問題而放棄國家安全嗎?"},{"start":359.062,"end":384.534,"text":"所以這件事情而且禁法這個案子不是今年才開始已經十幾年了這個事情本來就在討論應該預算要增加怎麼會到現在我們還在用這些事在這邊做檢討所以這部分負罪我要這邊要拜託會裡面真的要加油各部門能夠來協助我相信本席也是來自於偏鄉的小孩"},{"start":386.008,"end":387.83,"text":"審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留"}]}},{"id":"151246","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151246","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627f298f3f10319a9088f48eb7d2985ecdbc5dab72e655c1c94aa6d9d5be5f1c9245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:14:06 - 10:21:15","影片長度":"00:07:09","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。【第四案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[15,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":429,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:21:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:14:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":291,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時14分）謝謝主席。請鍾副主委，還有林副署長、主計總處廖專委。"],["主席：請鍾副主委、林副署長、廖專委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：首先請教一下，其實這幾年來持續增加，不管是禁伐補償的面積或金額，大家也全力支持，也希望能給予更多合理的補償。接下來這樣的方向，也就是今天要審查的方向，行政版本有出來嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：沒有。"],["賴委員瑞隆：為什麼沒有行政版本？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：目前……"],["賴委員瑞隆：原民會有在研議嗎？有在研議嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：委員版本出現之後，其實我們內部也有在討論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：有在討論？你們有提出來嗎？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：還沒有。"],["賴委員瑞隆：有在討論，但是還沒提出來？你們的態度是什麼？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：對於增加的方向，我們當然是樂觀其成。"],["賴委員瑞隆：樂觀其成？財源部分呢？也就是所增加財源的籌措？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：因為涉及整體預算，所以今年當然沒有這個預算；至於明年開始，由於這部分涉及國家整體預算，變成由新內閣來做編列或討論。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以要由行政院來支持編列？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：如果法通過以後，我們會依照法的規定來報……"],["賴委員瑞隆：要不要說明得更清楚一點？同仁有要補充嗎？"],["高專門委員文斌：跟委員報告，104年通過禁伐補償時有做附帶決議，即禁伐補償所增加的預算必須以開徵碳稅來支應。針對這個部分，原民會後來就按照當時大院的決議來檢討。不過剛剛很多委員提到，這幾年我們也發現受禁伐限制的土地的確有當初立法上沒有全部涵蓋的，當初只有林業用地。所以行政院在108年提出修法，擴大了禁伐補償的面積，包括都市計畫區、水質水源保護區、國土保安用地等。行政院在過去八年內、2016年之後，實際上我們也持續在推動，誠如委員簡報上所說，這八年的補償金額……"],["賴委員瑞隆：這八年從2.4萬公頃到7.2萬公頃？"],["高專門委員文斌：對，已經有124.7億元直接讓族人受益。剛剛委員所提示有關整體預算部分，目前本會內部正進行研議中，不過由於預算增加還涉及國家預算的整體配置，目前我們還在討論當中。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝。我問一下主計總處廖專委，財務的部分呢？"],["廖專門委員玉琳：跟委員報告，本次修法涉及調增禁伐補償金額及擴大禁伐補償範圍，涉及原民會、農業部、環境部等跨部會協調……"],["賴委員瑞隆：主計總處支持嗎？"],["廖專門委員玉琳：這個部分我們尊重主管機關的權責以及大院最後的審查結果。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以如果最後審議通過的話，主計總處會把它編出來就是了？"],["廖專門委員玉琳：如果修法通過的話，其本身就是屬於依法律所必須編列的支出，我們行政部門在編預算時會依照法所通過的規定來編列相關經費。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝。我還是希望可以審慎思考，當然，大家都支持持續增加，但剛剛也講到怎麼樣在整個政策上，包括原民的照顧、補助，甚至於在減碳政策上，如何以最有效的工具來達到，如剛才談到碳費，其實就是一個重要的法源依據。新內閣上任之後，對於新內閣來說，各位很多都是事務官，而今天很多政務官沒來。但我覺得對於既有的還是要有一些基本尊重，縱然大方向上大家都支持，可是該有的基本尊重還是要有，這樣就整個體制上來說是比較好的。","再來我請教一下副主委，竹林固碳的量是木材的三倍，所以我們應該大量推竹林，這應該也是原民會及林業署的方向嘛？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：是這樣的方向吧？我想瞭解的是，為什麼國產林這段時間數量是減少的？甚至於有近半林地是荒廢的？副署長要不要先說明一下？"],["林副署長澔貞：就竹材部分來說，其實我們早期竹材的生產量是非常多的，有上百萬枝。近年來由於禁伐補償等政策的支持，以致竹林的產量漸漸往下走……"],["賴委員瑞隆：我要講的是，在禁伐補償條例通過的前十年，一年還有兩百萬餘枝的數量，現在降到五十萬餘枝。為什麼政策反倒導致這樣的結果？有沒有什麼可以再做調整的空間？我意思是說，我們當然持續補償，但在減碳這塊，特別是對碳的處理，是未來臺灣重要的政策目標，所以應該有一些機制來處理，才能達到我們所期盼的雙贏效果。"],["林副署長澔貞：我們大概從112年開始推動竹產業新興計畫，在這個計畫裡，竹的材料來源是非常重要的。所以我們在去年2月1日推動竹林更新獎勵計畫，也就是在原住民禁伐補償的區域裡若要做竹林更新時，由我們林業署提供與禁伐補償一樣3萬塊的經費供疏伐……"],["賴委員瑞隆：未來疏伐竹林一樣會有3萬經費？"],["林副署長澔貞：對、對，現在就是……"],["賴委員瑞隆：希望用這樣的方式給予更多誘因，讓整個竹林……"],["林副署長澔貞：讓竹林活化。"],["賴委員瑞隆：因為竹林太久了就沒有竹材，反倒是可惜了碳匯。"],["林副署長澔貞：對，然後對水土保持來說也是不好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：就這個部分，我希望兩個部會能持續合作，好不好？"],["林副署長澔貞：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：一方面我們對於補償這塊持續來支持、進行，但是另一方面，有關碳匯部分、減碳這一塊也能持續，畢竟這些未來都跟碳費相關，所以希望這塊能持續推動，也希望能持續加油。","最後剩下一點時間我問一下森林的部分。前陣子大家發現有很多很髒亂的問題，我希望林業署能有效處理，依法可以罰6萬到30萬，但少數不肖人士在山林裡有些不當的行為，對此，我認為林業署應該要有更積極的作為，好不好？特定的幾個地點大家都知道在哪邊，你們應該要有作為；只要有積極作為，我相信對少數不肖業者會達到嚇阻效果，我認為這也是保護山林的重要一環。"],["林副署長澔貞：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：期待你們的作為。"],["林副署長澔貞：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝，非常謝謝賴瑞隆委員的質詢，也謝謝官員的回應。","繼續我們請黃建賓委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃捷","麥玉珍","張宏陸","許宇甄","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","王美惠","賴瑞隆","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","張智倫","張嘉郡","黃仁","謝衣鳯","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二、\n審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正\n草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例\n第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2.69721875,"end":4.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4.68846875,"end":8.114093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6.494093750000001,"end":8.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8.67096875,"end":11.556593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.30784375,"end":11.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12.029093750000001,"end":12.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12.46784375,"end":15.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15.25221875,"end":33.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.356593750000002,"end":22.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.58784375,"end":27.621593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.80721875,"end":27.942218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.942218750000002,"end":27.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.95909375,"end":27.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.97596875,"end":28.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.84846875,"end":34.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":34.20284375,"end":37.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.00409375,"end":39.923468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":38.657843750000005,"end":39.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.51409375,"end":41.408468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.26909375,"end":46.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":45.69471875,"end":47.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.80409375,"end":50.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":48.41159375,"end":50.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.28471875,"end":50.352218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":50.352218750000006,"end":50.369093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.369093750000005,"end":50.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":50.65596875,"end":51.212843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.88784375,"end":51.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.09034375,"end":55.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":55.515968750000006,"end":60.173468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.633468750000006,"end":71.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":71.73284375,"end":74.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.34409375,"end":80.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":79.93409375,"end":82.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.22471875000001,"end":83.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.03471875000001,"end":94.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.86846875,"end":115.48971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.75971875,"end":118.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.71284375,"end":121.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.91909375,"end":123.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.30284375000001,"end":129.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.51284375,"end":131.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":130.49159375000002,"end":134.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.92159375,"end":142.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.77659375000002,"end":145.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.40909375,"end":152.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":151.99034375000002,"end":156.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.21721875,"end":178.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":168.78096875,"end":170.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":176.96534375000002,"end":180.30659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.42471875,"end":191.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":192.01784375000003,"end":232.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":233.00721875000002,"end":245.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.76471875000001,"end":245.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":246.32159375,"end":256.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":257.25659375000004,"end":257.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":259.06221875,"end":260.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":260.54721875,"end":261.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.37409375000004,"end":262.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.08284375,"end":276.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.30846875000003,"end":283.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.59846875,"end":287.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":286.46721875000003,"end":287.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":287.69909375000003,"end":296.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":296.98034375000003,"end":318.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.02346875,"end":353.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":352.48221875,"end":361.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.54096875000005,"end":358.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.29534375000003,"end":361.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":361.40909375,"end":367.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.18096875000003,"end":363.78846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.15534375000004,"end":365.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.89346875,"end":370.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":369.34034375000005,"end":369.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":370.01534375,"end":424.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.88346875,"end":377.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.96909375,"end":423.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.43721875,"end":427.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":425.66909375,"end":425.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.68596875000003,"end":425.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":425.77034375000005,"end":425.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.96409375,"end":428.48721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.731,"end":5.214,"text":"審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":12.82,"end":39.309,"text":"首先請教一下我們其實從這幾年來持續在增加不管是從禁伐補償的面積或者是金額我想大家也全力的在支持也希望能夠給予更多合理的一些補償那我想問一下接下來這樣的一個方向今天要審查的方向行政院版本有出來嗎?沒有行政院版本為什麼沒有?沒有行政院版本目前有在研議嗎?有在研議嗎?"},{"start":42.545,"end":51.126,"text":"委員班門出現之後其實我們內部也有在討論有在討論那你們有提出來嗎?還沒有還沒有提出來有在討論但是還沒提出來那你們的態度是什麼?"},{"start":52.294,"end":74.048,"text":"當然對於增加這個方向我們是樂觀其成樂觀其成那裁員的部分呢就增加裁員的裁員的部分因為涉及到整體預算如果說今年當然是沒有這個預算那明年開始當然這個部分是涉及到國家整體預算那變成新的那個來去做一個編列或者討論所以要由行政院來支持編列"},{"start":75.57,"end":104.045,"text":"這個部分當然我們會報如果說法通過或我們按照法的部分來做一個要不要順利更清楚一點來同學有要補充嗎有要補充各位委員報告禁法補償104年通過的時候當時有做出附帶決議針對禁法補償增加預算必須以開增碳稅來支應那針對這個部分呢園民會後來我們就按照當時大院的決議來檢討那不過剛剛很多委員有提到這幾年我們也發現到禁法的這個竹人獸"},{"start":104.805,"end":128.564,"text":"限制的土地的確是有當初在立法上沒有全部涵蓋當初只有林業用地所以行政院在108年提出的修法我們擴大了這樣的禁法補償的面具包括這個都市計劃區水質水運保護區包括國土保安用地等所以行政院在過去8年內在2016年之後實際上我們也持續在推動也如委員簡報上所說我們現在大概這8年"},{"start":130.225,"end":151.674,"text":"補償金2.4公頃到7.2萬港幣8年4.7億元已經是直接讓族人能夠受益那剛剛委員所提示的部分有關整體的預算部分目前我們本會內部有進行研議中不過因為這個預算的增加還涉及到整個國家預算的整體的配置那目前我們還在這個討論當中那財務的部分呢"},{"start":158.437,"end":177.426,"text":"跟委員報告本次修法涉及到調整禁法補償的金額以及擴大禁法補償的範圍涉及到原民會、環境部、農業部和大部會的協商。這個部分我們尊重主管機關的權責以及大院的最後審查的延後。"},{"start":181.368,"end":202.168,"text":"審查委員若修法通過,本身是屬於依法律所必須編列的支出。我們行政部門在編預算會依照法通過來編列相關的經費。我還是希望這整個審訊來思考,因為畢竟當然大家持續的增加,但是剛剛也講到了怎麼樣在整個政策上包括原民的照顧、補助"},{"start":203.849,"end":232.138,"text":"甚至於在減碳這一塊政策上怎麼達到最有效的一個工具?剛剛也談到了,碳費其實是一個重要的一個法律依據,包括新的內閣上任之後的整個,我覺得對於基本新的內閣的,因為各位當然很多都事務官,政務官今天沒來嘛,很多政務員沒有來,那我覺得對於既有的還是要有一些基本的尊重啦,我覺得大方向上大家都支持,但是該有的基本尊重我認為還是要有啦,這個整個體制上是比較好的。好,再來我請教一下主委,副主委啦,"},{"start":233.563,"end":260.797,"text":"竹林整個固碳的量是木材的三倍其實我們應該大量繼續推竹林讓更多竹林這個方向上應該也是一個民會應該也是林務署的一些方向是這樣的方向那我想了解的是那為什麼這國產林這段時間來增加雖然是減少甚至於有進半的林地是荒廢要不要先說明一下副署長"},{"start":261.691,"end":276.979,"text":"是,我想這個竹材的這些的部分其實我們早期的竹材的一個生產量是非常多啦上上百萬隻這樣子那近年來當然有一些因為禁伐補償等等的這些的一個支持"},{"start":277.959,"end":291.246,"text":"及第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":299.65,"end":303.853,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留第1條條文修正草案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":318.483,"end":339.233,"text":"對,那這個因為我們大概從112年開始推竹產業新興計畫那這個計畫裡面其實竹的材料的來源是非常重要的所以我們也就在去年的2月1號推動了一個竹林更新獎勵計畫那就是在這個禁伐補償有原住民其實原住民禁伐補償的一個區域裡面"},{"start":340.674,"end":343.557,"text":"地禁償條例第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":362.036,"end":386.467,"text":"太久的竹林反倒沒有才反倒是對於那個對碳匯的反倒是可惜了然後整個對水土保持等等的也是所以我也希望這個部分兩個部會今天要持續來合作好不好我一方面到我們對於補償這一塊持續來支持進行但是一方面對這一塊能夠讓碳的部分碳匯的部分的持續減碳的這一塊持續甚至未來跟我們的碳費都會有相關聯的嗎我們希望這塊持續來推動"},{"start":387.728,"end":395.932,"text":"立法院第11會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":414.14,"end":424.011,"text":"特定的幾個地點大家都知道在哪邊的應該有一些作為你只要有積極的作為之後我相信對少數不消業者會有達到嚇阻的效果我認為這也是保護三零個狀況的一環好不好期待你們的作為"}]}},{"id":"151245","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151245","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016278895670bff72f66c8f48eb7d2985ecdbc5dab72e655c1c94b14477705634b9fb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:06:50 - 10:14:00","影片長度":"00:07:10","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。四、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案。【第四案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[15,19],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":430,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:14:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:06:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":269,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時6分）主席，請副主委。"],["主席：有請鍾副主委。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：王委員好。"],["王委員美惠：副主委早。請教一下副主委，你擔任這個職位多久了？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：12年。"],["王委員美惠：本席要跟你探討一下，不管是誰曾經提出這個案子、草案，請問你如何去計畫？讓我們原住民不要亂砍樹的補助，施行這幾年下來你有什麼想法？既然你已經做了12年了，就你對原住民的關心，所以請說明一下。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，當然禁伐補償是105年開始實施……"],["王委員美惠：我知道啦！因為我就是來問你基於這個職位有什麼想法，如果你是昨天才來或是一個月前才來，我也會問你，只是關心和瞭解的力道就不同了。從一早就有這麼多同事跟你提這些問題，我看你都沒有什麼概念，你也不想幫原住民看看怎麼去爭取他的福利及權益。說實在的，做好人大家都會做，要3萬也好，要5萬也好，要10萬也可以啦！不過立法院不像菜市場那樣，而且我看不出來你們有什麼作為。","你們是否曾想到，原住民的生活這麼困苦，是不是長久以來有替他們這麼想？你看你們今天所提出來的報告只有這一張，比方說如果要增加的話，要多到38萬，我都尊重你，但你連一點你的想法、你的思維都沒有，你是副主委耶！真的，就只有一句「尊重」！","再來，若要讓新的內閣來處理，難道這幾天大家乾脆都休息，都坐在辦公室喝茶、喝咖啡就好了？副主委，從剛才到現在，你認為這個補償的金額，以你的立場要多少才適合？你回答一下。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，因為土地的使用的確是受到限制，一般原住民保留地也沒有辦法被運用，所以才會有這個補償的辦法，當然也改善了族人土地因被限制使用，然後讓他們在經濟收益上有一些改善。"],["王委員美惠：副主委，說實在的，我從剛剛說到現在，你不瞭解我的用心良苦，我雖然是臺灣人，不過我是跟原住民站在一起的，尤其阿里山是位在我們嘉義縣，很多原住民都來嘉義市生活，他為什麼沒辦法生活？因為他們相關的福利都不夠，所以要來嘉義市做臨時工。我剛剛問的，你也還沒回答我，有人說3萬不夠，那我們要拿多少才夠？因為說實在的，大家都非常的關心，伍麗華也是，包括坐在這裡所有的委員都很關心，才會去提這個草案，才會想要把這些錢看看可以提高多少是最適合的，像召委也是在為原住民發聲。我覺得任何人都可以有他的立場跟他的看法，只是到現在完全看不出你們這個單位的作法，照理你們是要來保護他們的，可是我從9點就坐在那裡，到現在你們也沒說出這段時間你們的想法跟你們要去報告的時候最有利的理由是什麼，到現在都沒有，就只會說「尊重」！","接著我要跟你探討的是，0403花蓮地震的時候，你們的文健站全臺灣共設了500多個，花蓮有設了100多個。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：是的。"],["王委員美惠：到現在為止，還有在花蓮，很多教會因為地震的緣故，很多原住民就沒辦法去教會做禮拜，尤其是一些文健站，到目前為止也是有受損的，而這是原住民長輩平常第二個可以休息互相關心的地方，所以到目前為止，就你們的瞭解有多少？請你報告。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，有關0403文健站跟教會的部分，都納入我們整體協助規劃補助有關災區的部分，我們都有一些清冊在裡面，也有同仁去做調查、整理。"],["王委員美惠：我請教一下，到目前為止，你們規劃是如何呢？"],["鍾副主任委員興華：跟委員報告，因為詳細資料不是我在督導的，是由另外一個副主委，所以我們可以把相關調查的資料跟協助的情況，跟委員做一個報告。"],["王委員美惠：副主委，我覺得你來這裡也是要瞭解，你身為原住民的副主委，發生這樣的狀況，你應該要比任何人還要瞭解，會後拜託資料提供給我，以上。"],["鍾副主任委員興華：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝美惠，謝謝副主委。","繼續我們請賴瑞隆委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":64,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-15,19-1","speakers":["高金素梅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","盧縣一","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","黃捷","麥玉珍","張宏陸","許宇甄","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","王美惠","賴瑞隆","黃建賓","鄭正鈐","李柏毅","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","邱志偉","陳亭妃","蔡易餘","楊瓊瓔","林岱樺","張智倫","張嘉郡","黃仁","謝衣鳯","丁學忠"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案」案；二、\n審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等18人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草\n案」案；三、審查委員盧縣一等19人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正\n草案」案；四、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe 等16人擬具「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例\n第三條及第六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.87409375,"end":6.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.658468750000001,"end":8.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.395968750000002,"end":13.851593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.851593750000003,"end":13.868468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.868468750000002,"end":13.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.88534375,"end":14.189093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.644718750000003,"end":15.505343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.79221875,"end":15.809093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.809093750000002,"end":16.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.927218750000002,"end":18.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.57659375,"end":22.137218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.980968750000002,"end":23.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.74034375,"end":24.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.80346875,"end":25.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.27596875,"end":25.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.204093750000002,"end":28.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.937843750000003,"end":33.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.15659375,"end":33.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.27034375,"end":36.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.80159375,"end":37.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.74221875,"end":42.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.06221875,"end":44.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.665343750000005,"end":46.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.33159375,"end":51.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.056593750000005,"end":57.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.92909375,"end":58.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.72221875,"end":60.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.52784375,"end":65.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.37096875,"end":71.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.19784375,"end":66.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.52596875,"end":76.84596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.79596875,"end":72.84659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.35221875,"end":79.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.86659375,"end":82.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.20784375000001,"end":86.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.07221875,"end":88.50659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.84409375,"end":94.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.41659375,"end":100.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.97721875,"end":103.22159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.27221875000001,"end":104.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.71471875,"end":108.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.27971875,"end":110.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.52409375,"end":112.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.58284375000001,"end":114.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.96659375,"end":116.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.89034375000001,"end":118.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.74659375,"end":119.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.19784375,"end":120.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.41284375000001,"end":122.37471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.81346875000001,"end":123.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.06221875000001,"end":125.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.00284375000001,"end":127.94346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.39909375000002,"end":129.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.42409375,"end":131.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.56721875,"end":133.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.32221875000002,"end":135.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.75659375,"end":138.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.96284375000002,"end":142.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.06346875,"end":143.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.53159375,"end":145.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.52284375000002,"end":149.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.97784375,"end":152.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.16284375,"end":155.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.98971875,"end":157.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.74471875,"end":158.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.61784375000002,"end":160.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.03534375,"end":162.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.92534375,"end":163.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.78159375,"end":167.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.36346875,"end":170.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.15596875,"end":172.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.10096875000002,"end":174.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.37909375,"end":178.11284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.97346875000002,"end":180.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.59346875,"end":182.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.95159375,"end":186.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.11596875,"end":185.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.05659375000002,"end":195.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.94971875000002,"end":201.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.06346875,"end":197.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.17659375000002,"end":202.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.51409375,"end":202.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.03721875000002,"end":204.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.82596875000002,"end":205.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.32784375,"end":210.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.96846875,"end":212.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.58409375000002,"end":215.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.92971875,"end":219.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.03471875000002,"end":219.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.13596875000002,"end":219.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.11471875,"end":223.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.69221875000002,"end":226.61159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.79721875,"end":227.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.38784375,"end":228.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.85159375,"end":232.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.13409375,"end":231.67409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.31096875000003,"end":234.23909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.67784375000002,"end":237.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.82909375000003,"end":240.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.27596875,"end":244.31346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.07284375,"end":246.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.33409375000002,"end":248.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.93721875000003,"end":250.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.65846875000003,"end":251.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.21096875,"end":254.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.65784375,"end":255.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.12596875,"end":258.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.24784375,"end":260.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.81721875,"end":261.99846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.77471875000003,"end":263.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.90534375000004,"end":265.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.47471875,"end":267.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.80346875000004,"end":269.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.99721875,"end":271.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.05596875000003,"end":272.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.13596875,"end":274.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.07659375000003,"end":275.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.24096875000004,"end":280.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.28659375,"end":283.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.17221875,"end":285.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.04534375000003,"end":286.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.44596875,"end":288.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.82971875000004,"end":291.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.81221875,"end":293.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.66409375,"end":296.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.79471875,"end":298.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.52846875,"end":302.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.49409375000005,"end":304.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.89471875000004,"end":306.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.85221875,"end":308.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.55659375000005,"end":311.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.47159375,"end":314.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.47534375000004,"end":316.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.34409375,"end":319.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.14096875,"end":323.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.28846875,"end":325.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.68034375,"end":328.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.31721875,"end":328.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.26221875000005,"end":330.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.38846875,"end":332.67096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.39659375,"end":335.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.40034375000005,"end":337.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.42534375,"end":340.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.19284375,"end":342.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.80846875000003,"end":345.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.58034375,"end":346.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.69409375000004,"end":347.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.44909375000003,"end":349.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.30534375,"end":352.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.97159375,"end":355.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.14409375,"end":357.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.47721875,"end":359.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.85659375,"end":360.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.88596875,"end":361.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.55659375000005,"end":363.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.29471875,"end":365.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.03284375000004,"end":368.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.25596875,"end":375.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.82034375,"end":377.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.22096875,"end":379.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.22471875,"end":380.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.57909375,"end":393.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.44284375,"end":388.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.84721875,"end":397.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.51721875000004,"end":398.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.77034375000005,"end":406.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.62971875000005,"end":408.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.52409375,"end":408.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.99659375000005,"end":414.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.32909375,"end":416.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.96159375,"end":418.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.96971875,"end":421.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.08721875000003,"end":423.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.30221875,"end":425.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.50034375,"end":426.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.73221875,"end":427.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.33971875000003,"end":427.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.37346875000003,"end":429.97221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.895,"end":8.376,"text":"主席,我們請副主委,有請曾副主委。主委,本席在這裏要請教一下,你坐在這位的期間有多久?12年。12年嗎?對。來,本席跟你談一下,"},{"start":28.968,"end":42.474,"text":"不關什麼人有正經提出這個規案的草案時,你如何去結尾,去想說要怎樣讓我們原住民、經濟委員不要亂扯手腕,會補償,會這幾年你有什麼想法來?既然你已經坐12年了,你的保護,你給對原住民"},{"start":58.761,"end":69.846,"text":"內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第16條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第16條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第16條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第16條條文修正草案案。七、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第16條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":83.574,"end":94.201,"text":"當時跟你說這個問題的時候,我看你都沒概念,你也沒想到原住民怎麼請出他的福利及他的款項。說實在,每個做好的人都可以做,要3萬也好,要5萬也好,要10萬也可以啦。堅固在那裡不是要拿菜吃這樣啦。"},{"start":111.587,"end":113.668,"text":"審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":132.611,"end":146.822,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":159.69,"end":169.82,"text":"第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案。"},{"start":184.062,"end":209.688,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個土地的使用是的確是受到限制那一般原住民保留地那也沒有辦法被應用所以才會有這個補償的辦法那當然是那也改善了主委對於土地被限制使用然後讓他們在經濟收益上有一些改善主委、副主委你這樣喔我講實在我從剛才講到現在你沒了解說我用心用口"},{"start":213.632,"end":228.799,"text":"我雖然是台灣人,但我是將原住民擬作壞的,尤其阿里山我們的家族館,很多原住民來家族館生活的,他們怎麼沒辦法生活,對你們對待的好利好什麼都沒救了,所以要來搞家族館做臨時工啊,"},{"start":241.325,"end":242.791,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具"},{"start":245.134,"end":249.896,"text":"條例第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":273.186,"end":279.292,"text":"及第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"},{"start":296.851,"end":314.138,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具第6條條文修正草案。"},{"start":326.738,"end":330.341,"text":"零四、零三、花蓮等時,您的運行站在所有全台灣15百多個,花蓮就18幾個,到現在為止,"},{"start":344.151,"end":359.009,"text":"還有在我們的花蓮的所在許多教會也是因為這件事來引起給原住民許多人沒有辦法去到教會主席。"},{"start":359.91,"end":375.058,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留"},{"start":380.677,"end":406.38,"text":"跟委員報告有關0403文件站跟教會的部分都納入我們整體在協助規劃補助有關災區的部分,那我們都有一些清澈在裡面,也有同仁去做調查整理。調查我來請教,九五城你們的局委是怎樣?跟委員報告,因為詳細資料不是我在督導,是另外一個副主委,所以我們可以把相關的調查資料跟協助的情況跟我們做一個報告。"},{"start":407.674,"end":421.642,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政、經濟委員高金素梅等19人擬具、「原住民保留第12條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具、「原住民保留第12條條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具"}]}},{"id":"151244","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151244","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627c5c2efa2c8c4eaf0cf744a9f110b3b1fc5dab72e655c1c9419ee2b2e751d37cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:29:06 - 10:40:47","影片長度":"00:11:41","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":701,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:40:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:29:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":464,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（10時29分）我們請金管會黃主委，還有經濟部陳次長。"],["主席：有請黃主委、陳政次。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["陳次長正祺：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委好，次長好。我在立法院的第一次質詢就質詢了山道猴子，就質詢了融資公司，就質詢了今天這樣的亂象只是越來越明顯，我想問一下經濟部，金管會一直認為融資公司不是他的業務，是不是你的業務？"],["陳次長正祺：經濟部主管的法律裡面，在消費者保護的部分，我們會提……"],["黃委員珊珊：你只管消費者保護，所以融資公司它所融資的這些相關的業務是歸誰管？不歸你管？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，我們現在講融資，就我的瞭解，它是一種借貸行為，不是銀行……"],["黃委員珊珊：經濟部主管公司法，一般公司都是你管嘛！"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：這些融資公司在業務範圍裡面就寫融資，對吧？"],["陳次長正祺：目前我們沒有融資公司這個類別。"],["黃委員珊珊：次長還有主委，在民國94年，黃天牧主委以前在保險局時的老長官叫做龔照勝，他就提了融資公司專法，96、97年度有融資公司法草案進入立法院，所以融資公司從那個時候到現在都沒有人管，可以這樣說嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：的確這個議題是一直沒有得到……"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是我們延宕了20年的融資公司法沒有人管，也沒有人要管，主委，我知道你的困難，因為你只管上市櫃公司，所以這三家你可以管得到，你在我第一次的質詢後，你告訴我，你要找他們喝咖啡，你也找了他們喝咖啡，對吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，您的第一次質詢我記得很清楚，你說至少你要給我最低限度，要開始做一些事。"],["黃委員珊珊：是的，這是我很遺憾的，我想這20年來立法院很多立法委員也都提過，所以今天的問題是融資租賃公司為什麼業務會成長到現在，我想我們大家都很清楚原因，第一個就是某些程度銀行的貸款不是那麼容易取得，尤其是新創，甚至是小額，所以才會有這麼多的融資公司不斷的竄起；第二個，這些大公司，尤其是這三家上市櫃公司，都是用租賃的方式來做相關的融資，但是更多的不肖業者除了先買後付（BNPL）之外，其實現在最嚴重的就是這些大公司也搞所謂的超貸，就是機車超貸，是假租賃、真信貸還有假商品、真信貸，所以現在的問題就是大公司、小公司都做一樣的事情，這才是我們今天社會亂象的來源。曾經有一個社工講得很清楚，他說以前都是欠銀行錢來協商，在109年以後全部都是機車貸、汽車貸，連手機都可以貸，商品更不要講了。這些新型態的負債現在是幾十萬，一個破機車可以借到幾十萬，甚至中古車可以借到上百萬，這已經是不值錢的東西，他們用假租賃、真信貸的方式，造成了今天有很多被稱為「山道猴子」的被害人。經濟部次長，我們希望520以後你還能留任，所以經濟部的態度是什麼？你們希不希望立專法？"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，第一個，委員剛剛提到超過物品價值的這種融資跟借貸，這已經在邊緣上，可以視為已經有詐騙的嫌疑，遇到這種重利罪……"],["黃委員珊珊：一定要到詐騙的程度嗎？詐騙之前呢？誰來管呢？"],["陳次長正祺：還沒有。"],["黃委員珊珊：現在就是沒人管啦！兩位，我的問題就是政府的立場支不支持立專法？因為金管會只能管上市櫃公司，大的公司它可以管，可是小的公司管不了。第二個，小的公司經濟部也不管，現在就叫做沒人管的三不管地帶。主委，雖然你要卸任了，我想問你，你願不願意支持立專法？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，就是因為我將要離開，所以我不太適合對未來主委所要決定的事情去表示意見。"],["黃委員珊珊：好。"],["黃主任委員天牧：但是您提到的那個內部融資標準第6頁，我們今天有特別說明會改進。"],["黃委員珊珊：專法的法案我們已經寫好了，不管主委你在不在任，我相信這在立法院本屆會期會是一個重中之重的法案，我們也希望行政部門提出你們的對案，尤其是經濟部管不了、金管會不想管的東西，我們希望有人可以站出來管。第二個部分，現在的問題在於說剛剛講的那三大家有6,700億的業務，但是我上次也質詢過，湊起來有將近100億的呆帳，雖然不單單都是這些所謂的小額信貸，但是它有這麼多的呆帳，表示它還是很賺錢。重點是現在的問題是有很多地下錢莊改以租賃公司為名，開始做合法的地下錢莊，讓租賃公司成為有牌的地下錢莊，還可以去執行暴力討債，甚至到法院做相關的強制執行。主委，到目前為止公股行庫到底有多少家在中國成立融資公司？"],["黃主任委員天牧：關於這個數字，我們大概有十幾家金融機構轉投資。"],["黃委員珊珊：十幾家？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：臺企銀、第一金、華南金、合庫金都有在大陸成立融資公司，對嗎？時間暫停，請銀行局說明。"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該都有，局長要不要來說明一下？"],["主席：要請公股銀行的董事長嗎？"],["黃委員珊珊：公股銀行的董事長。"],["主席：剛剛是臺企銀。"],["黃委員珊珊：臺企銀、第一金、華南金跟合庫金。"],["主席：來，請三位被點名到的公股銀行的董事長上臺備詢。"],["黃委員珊珊：各位董事長，我們在馬政府時代因為跟兩岸簽有金融的MOU，所以我們的公股行庫都有在中國大陸設立所謂的融資租賃公司，是嗎？都有，有賺錢嗎？都有賺錢，現在還在做嗎？還在做。到目前為止，好像中國大陸2023年狀況不太好，是嗎？但是我知道的是第一金的一銀租賃公司一年的成長率還是超過3%，董事長，是嗎？"],["主席：請邱董事長。"],["黃委員珊珊：時間暫停。"],["邱董事長月琴：報告委員，事實上，目前我們租賃公司的暴險也是放在整個AI822的控管之中。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以其實在中國大陸我們還是按照當地的法規有成立租賃公司，幾位董事長，現在中國大陸其實對租賃融資業有一個專業的辦法，也就是金融租賃公司管理辦法，還有融資租賃公司監督管理暫行辦法，它其實是由中央來監管的。至少到目前為止，就像我剛剛講的，臺灣沒人管，經濟部也管不了，在韓國有金融監督院、新加坡有金融管理局、印尼有金融服務管理局，中國是銀保監會，柬埔寨是國家銀行，也就是說，這些國家到目前為止，包括德國、日本，都是由中央金融監理機關來做的。黃主委，我在這邊要說的是，雖然你要卸任，但是我要說全世界各地都是由中央主管機關來監管相關的融資業務，我想臺灣也不可以例外。"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以各位能不能給金管會一個建議，就是在臺灣的融資公司是不是也應該像在中國大陸這樣至少有一個監管機制？至少你們在大陸正常做生意可以正常賺到錢，也不會有這些問題，希望是啦！好不好？他山之石，可以攻錯，我們希望全世界都在做的事，臺灣不能獨漏，而且我們自己也在做同樣的事，連公營行庫都在做一樣的事，但是我們自己放下了這些管理的權限，我覺得非常可惜。","最後就是現在租賃業他們有幾個問題，第一個就是他們也想要好好的授信，但是他們取不太到聯徵中心的資料；第二個是他們也沒有互相的信用保險機構，所以他們也是有很高的暴險，另外就是主管機關對他們沒有支持、也沒有輔導，所以想要好好正常做租賃業的又不行。這個問題就回到經濟部了，次長，根據我們的公司法，公司的資金是不可以貸與股東或者是任何人，對吧？"],["陳次長正祺：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以這些融資公司可以登記這個業務，又可以低於所謂資本額的多少，它就可以融資。"],["陳次長正祺：淨值的40%。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，淨值的40%，所以他們才會發明了假商品交易、真信貸還有假租賃、真信貸，因為有這個限制，也就是說，我們在管理上面的確是讓這些本來就是做融資的公司或者是企業用這個來規避相關的法規，這也是經濟部一直知道但是又沒辦法管理的，是嗎？"],["陳次長正祺：我們如果發現是屬於違法行為的話，當然我們……"],["黃委員珊珊：你送過多少案子？"],["陳次長正祺：我們送過很多協處的案子，通常都是用租賃……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以送過多少案子？"],["陳次長正祺：一百多件。"],["黃委員珊珊：在多久的時間內送一百多件？是一年送一百多件？"],["蘇署長文玲：我們協處的案子一年大概一百多件。"],["黃委員珊珊：一年一百多件，都送了，有判刑嗎？"],["蘇署長文玲：一百多件是我們協處的，不是送檢調的。"],["黃委員珊珊：不是送檢調的，所以次長你說他有違法，然後你送到哪？"],["蘇署長文玲：那兩個狀況……"],["陳次長正祺：報告委員，我剛剛回應委員的問題裡面涉及到假租賃、真借貸，這個屬於違法行為，但是如果是因為借貸產生的借貸爭議、消費爭議，那我們介入協處。"],["黃委員珊珊：協處，所以你沒有移送過任何一件？"],["陳次長正祺：這個我們會後去查證一下再回復委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以還是回到我講的，如果你管不了、你也管不到，你也沒辦法管，就麻煩訂專法。我們今天有個臨時提案，等一下要請召委來裁示，主要就是希望行政單位正視這個問題，能夠訂出行政院版本的融資租賃專法，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員的質詢。","接著請賴惠員委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":148,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-8","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","賴惠員","李坤城","李彥秀","王世堅","顏寬恒","陳培瑜","陳玉珍","羅明才","林楚茵","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","吳春城","陳亭妃","王定宇","邱志偉"],"page_start":81,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請金融監督管理委員會黃主任委員天牧、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、行政院消費者保護處就\n「如何改善我國融資公司因缺乏監管所衍生之社會亂象，以穩定金融市場並保障消費者權益」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢；另邀請內政部警政署、法務部列席備詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.57096875,"end":3.2034687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.84471875,"end":4.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5.19471875,"end":6.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.3590937499999995,"end":7.371593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.29971875,"end":8.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.35846875,"end":11.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.539718750000002,"end":12.164093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.501593750000001,"end":16.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.78784375,"end":22.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.352218750000002,"end":25.461593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.832843750000002,"end":28.887218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.34284375,"end":30.304718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.304718750000003,"end":30.355343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.09346875,"end":38.033468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.81846875,"end":37.392218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.033468750000004,"end":38.438468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.438468750000006,"end":38.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.64096875,"end":38.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.69159375,"end":43.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.79284375,"end":38.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.06284375,"end":39.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.361593750000004,"end":45.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.728468750000005,"end":52.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.44909375,"end":51.752843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.02284375,"end":52.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.34346875,"end":52.697843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.697843750000004,"end":52.799093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.799093750000004,"end":53.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.86659375,"end":58.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.29596875,"end":61.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.77659375,"end":66.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.88534375,"end":71.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.40784375,"end":73.52159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.04471875,"end":77.28471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.87534375,"end":79.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.73159375,"end":81.48659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.72284375000001,"end":85.73909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.07659375,"end":86.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.59534375000001,"end":92.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.02909375,"end":93.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.10471875,"end":95.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.12159375,"end":98.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.36596875000001,"end":106.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.81596875000001,"end":116.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.31221875000001,"end":117.32909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.32909375000001,"end":117.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.48096875,"end":117.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.49784375,"end":124.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.02846875,"end":147.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.85596875000002,"end":158.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.44909375,"end":166.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.19471875000002,"end":168.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.40971875000002,"end":170.63721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.70471875,"end":180.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.58909375000002,"end":185.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.92596875,"end":186.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.61346875,"end":194.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.71784375000001,"end":199.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.05034375000002,"end":212.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.34784375,"end":216.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.80721875,"end":223.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.74284375000002,"end":223.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.75971875000002,"end":223.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.94534375,"end":223.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.96221875,"end":227.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.96159375000002,"end":237.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.10784375000003,"end":237.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.27659375000002,"end":237.59721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.59721875000002,"end":244.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.18346875,"end":240.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.85346875000002,"end":247.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.11034375000003,"end":257.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.10034375000004,"end":263.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.82096875,"end":263.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.92221875,"end":263.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.12471875,"end":264.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.17534375,"end":275.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.80221875,"end":275.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":275.95409375,"end":276.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.03846875,"end":278.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.59909375,"end":296.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.82846875,"end":303.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.21971875,"end":315.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.15034375000005,"end":323.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.82846875,"end":332.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.09284375000004,"end":333.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.35846875000004,"end":335.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.80971875,"end":339.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.38721875000005,"end":340.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.70346875,"end":341.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.42471875,"end":342.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.18409375000005,"end":347.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.24659375000005,"end":348.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":348.60096875000005,"end":348.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.73159375,"end":349.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":349.96784375000004,"end":350.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.03534375000004,"end":350.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":350.96346875,"end":351.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.03096875,"end":351.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.21659375,"end":351.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.62159375000005,"end":351.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.97596875000005,"end":352.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.02659375,"end":352.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":352.97159375,"end":353.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.03909375,"end":353.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":353.96721875000003,"end":354.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.03471875,"end":361.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.74659375000005,"end":362.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":362.38784375,"end":364.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":366.97784375000003,"end":368.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":368.81721875000005,"end":369.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.17159375,"end":369.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.44159375000004,"end":370.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":370.43721875,"end":371.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.29346875000005,"end":373.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":373.50846875,"end":374.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.21721875000003,"end":375.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":374.95971875000004,"end":375.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":376.03971875,"end":381.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.18034375,"end":394.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.34471875,"end":405.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.77346875,"end":406.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.66784375000003,"end":407.59596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.69284375,"end":409.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.53659375,"end":410.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.44346875,"end":412.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.48971875,"end":412.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.62034375,"end":416.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.17659375000005,"end":420.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.58971875000003,"end":425.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.59721875,"end":427.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":427.03596875000005,"end":428.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.14096875,"end":430.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.95096875,"end":439.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.59096875,"end":439.62471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.62471875000006,"end":462.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.87784375,"end":440.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.48596875000004,"end":463.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.49846875000003,"end":467.08034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.31221875000006,"end":471.23159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.82221875000005,"end":472.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.12159375000005,"end":481.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.62659375000004,"end":489.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.47346875000005,"end":493.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.84409375,"end":517.7390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.11284375,"end":503.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.8190937500001,"end":520.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.97909375,"end":539.7778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.5034687500001,"end":541.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.39346875,"end":545.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.93721875,"end":546.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.01284375,"end":550.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.8984687500001,"end":554.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.2859687499999,"end":555.9272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.04534375,"end":559.4540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.8759687500001,"end":564.5672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.71909375,"end":566.2547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.86221875,"end":576.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.39221875,"end":583.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.5009687500001,"end":583.9228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.9228437500001,"end":587.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.1753437500001,"end":592.9172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":591.90471875,"end":594.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.74409375,"end":596.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.2922187500001,"end":598.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.8234687500001,"end":599.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.29159375,"end":601.6415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":602.0803437500001,"end":603.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.7678437500001,"end":604.6115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.8984687500001,"end":605.3372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.7253437500001,"end":606.2822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.0247187500001,"end":608.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.16784375,"end":610.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.26034375,"end":622.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.70159375,"end":625.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":626.44784375,"end":637.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":633.90659375,"end":634.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.0247187500001,"end":635.0034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":635.74596875,"end":636.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.02846875,"end":642.4284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.4622187500001,"end":645.2803437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.43221875,"end":648.0478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.32659375,"end":646.6809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.3515937500001,"end":655.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":652.5872187500001,"end":653.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":654.8484687499999,"end":657.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":658.57784375,"end":674.7778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.7778437500001,"end":674.7947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":675.6215937500001,"end":677.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.0390937500001,"end":697.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.21721875,"end":698.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":698.8078437500001,"end":701.1028437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.432,"end":8.709,"text":"請監管會黃主委還有經濟部有請黃主委、陳政次、邵榮宏是主委"},{"start":10.387,"end":29.923,"text":"好 次長我想我在立法院的第一次質詢就質詢了山道猴子就質詢了融資公司就質詢了今天這樣的亂象只是越來越明顯好 經濟部我想問一下金管會一直認為融資公司不是他的業務是不是你的業務"},{"start":32.09,"end":33.791,"text":"你只管消費者保護所以融資公司他所融資的這些相關的業務是歸誰管?不歸你管?"},{"start":45.765,"end":66.547,"text":"報告委員我們現在講融資就我的了解他是一種借貸行為所以經濟部主管公司法嘛一般公司都是你管是所以這些融資公司他在業務範圍裡面就寫融資對吧他通常目前我們沒有融資公司這個類別所以部長"},{"start":67.892,"end":68.092,"text":"可以這樣說嗎?兩位"},{"start":95.628,"end":116.526,"text":"的確這個議題是一直沒有得到...也就是我們延宕了20年的融資公司法沒有人管也沒有人要管那剛剛主委我知道你的困難因為你只管上市櫃公司所以這三家你可以管得到所以我在第一次的質詢後你告訴我你要找他們喝咖啡你也找了他們喝咖啡對吧"},{"start":117.467,"end":145.642,"text":"黃主任委員您第一次執行我記得很清楚你說至少你要給我最低限度要開始做一些事是的所以這是我很遺憾這20年我想立法院很多立法委員也都提過所以今天的問題是融資租賃公司為什麼業務會成長到現在我想原因我們大家都很清楚第一個就是某些程度銀行貸款不是那麼容易取得尤其是新創甚至是小額所以才會有這麼多的融資公司不斷地竄起"},{"start":146.843,"end":158.503,"text":"二、這些大公司尤其是三家上市櫃公司他都是用租賃的方式來做相關的融資但是更多的不肖業者他除了"},{"start":159.485,"end":184.904,"text":"BNPL先買後付之外其實現在最嚴重的就是這些大公司也搞這些所謂的超貸機車超貸假租賃徵信貸假商品徵信貸所以現在的問題就是大公司小公司都做一樣的事情這才是我們今天社會亂象的來源也就是說曾經有個社工講得很清楚他說以前都是欠銀行錢來協商"},{"start":187.885,"end":212.77,"text":"109年以後全部都是機車貸、汽車貸、手機都可以貸商品更不要講這些新型態的負債現在幾十萬一個破機車可以借到幾十萬甚至中古車可以借到上百萬這已經是不值錢的東西它用假租賃徵信貸的方式造成了今天很多的山倒猴子的被害人"},{"start":213.47,"end":222.608,"text":"所以經濟部次長雖然你應該至少我們希望520你還能留任所以經濟部的態度是什麼你們需不需要立專法"},{"start":223.769,"end":247.265,"text":"外委員第一個委員您剛提到這個超過物品的價值的這種融資跟借貸那這有已經在邊緣上可以視為它已經有這個詐騙的嫌疑遇到這種一定要到詐騙的程度嗎詐騙之前誰來管呢現在就沒人管啊兩位我的問題就是政府的立場支不支持立專法"},{"start":248.166,"end":257.177,"text":"因為金管會只能管上市櫃,大的公司他可以管,小的公司管不了。第二個,小的公司經濟部也不管,現在就叫做沒人管的三不管地帶。"},{"start":258.157,"end":265.805,"text":"主委,雖然您要卸任,我想問您,您願不願意支持立專法?專法的法案我們已經寫好了,我們也希望"},{"start":279.62,"end":296.196,"text":"同樣的不管主任你再不在任我想這個都要成為將來尤其在本屆的立法院我相信會是一個重中之重的法案我們也希望行政部門應該提出你們的對岸尤其是經濟部管不了儘管會不想管的東西我們希望有人可以站出來管"},{"start":296.917,"end":314.859,"text":"第二個部分現在的問題在於說剛剛講到三大家三大家有6700億的業務幾乎是業務但是我上次有質詢過他將近湊起來有100億的貸帳雖然不單單都是這些所謂的小額信貸但是他有這麼多的貸帳表示他還是很賺錢"},{"start":316.201,"end":341.486,"text":"重點是在於接下來現在很多的問題是地下錢莊改以租賃公司為名開始做合法的地下錢莊讓租賃公司成為有牌的地下錢莊還可以去執行包括暴力討債然後甚至到法院可以做相關的強制執行那最嚴重的是我希望的是"},{"start":342.466,"end":363.432,"text":"我們目前為止公股行庫到底有多少家在中國成立融資公司主委這個我們說是我們可以有一個金融機構轉投資大概十幾家時間暫停十幾家十幾家對台企銀第一金跟華南金、核庫金都有在大陸成立融資公司對嗎時間暫停應該都有局長你要不要來說明一下要請公股銀行的"},{"start":369.191,"end":379.976,"text":"公股銀行的董事長剛剛是臺企銀臺企銀、第一金、華南金、和平金來,請三位被點名到了公股銀行的董事長上臺備選"},{"start":394.195,"end":415.171,"text":"各位董事長,我們在馬政府時代因為跟兩岸簽有金融的MOU,所以我們的公務武漢庫都有在中國大陸設立所謂的融資主領公司是嗎?都有。有賺錢嗎?都有賺錢。現在還在做嗎?還在做。那目前為止好像中國大陸2023年狀況不太好是嗎?"},{"start":418.24,"end":446.762,"text":"但是我知道的是第一金第一金的一營租賃公司一年的成長率還是超過3%是嗎 董事長第一金確實 董事長時間暫停喔報告委員那目前呢 事實上我們的整個租賃公司的曝險也是放在整個AI82控管之中啦所以其實在中國大陸我們還是按照當地的法規有成立租賃公司幾位董事長"},{"start":447.603,"end":466.525,"text":"我們現在中國大陸他其實租賃融資業有一個專業的辦法也就是金融租賃公司管理辦法還有融資租賃公司監理監督管理戰型辦法他其實是由中央來監管的那在至少目前為止台灣"},{"start":471.905,"end":492.504,"text":"在韓國有金融監督院新加坡金融管理局印尼金融服務管理局中國市銀保監會柬埔寨是國家銀行也就是說在這些國家目前為止包括德國、日本都是由中央金融監理機關來做的所以黃主委我在這邊說的是"},{"start":494.245,"end":517.55,"text":"雖然你要卸任但是我要說全世界各地都有中央主管機關來做監管相關的融資業務而且台灣也不可以例外了解謝謝委員是所以各位你們能不能給金管會一個建議說在台灣的融資公司是不是也應該像在中國大陸這樣他至少有一個監管機制目前為止"},{"start":518.871,"end":546.582,"text":"至少你們在大陸正常做生意可以正常賺到錢也不會有這些問題希望是啦好不好這是我希望說既然他山之石可以攻錯我們希望全世界都在做的事台灣不能獨露而且我們自己也在做同樣的事我們公營、航庫都在做一樣的事但是我們自己放下了這些管理的權限我覺得非常可惜最後就是"},{"start":548.289,"end":575.818,"text":"現在租賃業他們有幾個問題第一個就是他們也想要好好的受信但是他們取不太到聯徵中心的資料第二個是他們沒有互相的信用保險的機構所以他們也是很高的曝險另外就是主管機關對他們也沒有支持也沒有輔導所以正常想要好好做租賃業的又不行回到問題就回到經濟部了"},{"start":577.443,"end":604.399,"text":"市長我們的公司法公司的資金是不可以待於股東或者是任何人的對吧是所以他們這些融資公司又可以登記這個業務又可以低於他的所謂資本額的多少他就可以融資40%禁止40%對禁止40%所以他們才會發明了一個叫做假信貸假商品交易徵信貸假租賃徵信貸"},{"start":607.06,"end":624.813,"text":"因為有這個限制也就是說我們的管理上面的確是讓公司或者是這些企業他本來就是做融資的可是他用這個來規避相關的法規這也是經濟部一直知道但是又沒辦法管理的是嗎"},{"start":626.502,"end":644.978,"text":"我們如果發現的話是屬於違法行為的話當然你送過多少案子我們送過很多協處的案子通常都是用租賃所以送過多少案子一百多件一百多件多久收一百多件一年收一百多件我們協處的案子一年大概一百多件"},{"start":645.458,"end":674.543,"text":"一年一百多件都送了,有判刑嗎?不是,一百多件是我們協處的,不是送檢調的。不是送檢調,所以次長你說他有違法,然後你說那哪?報告委員,我剛指的跟回應委員的問題裡面涉及到假租賃,真借貸,這個是屬於違法行為。但是如果是因為借貸產生的這個借貸爭議、消費爭議,那我們介入協處。協處,所以你沒有移送過任何一件?"},{"start":675.697,"end":675.977,"text":"謝謝黃珊珊委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"151243","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151243","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016276ab0773503b06c8ff65493343f37da33c5dab72e655c1c9411ba3abc993e12c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:24:56 - 10:35:47","影片長度":"00:10:51","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員黃健豪等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員王育敏等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條及第二百八十六條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（七）國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）委員柯志恩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n（十）委員陳超明等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案。\n【第（九）、（十）案如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":651,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:35:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:24:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":646,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時25分）先請次長。"],["主席：麻煩蔡次長。"],["林委員思銘：副秘書長也一起。","次長好。我想先就教次長，這一次對於刑法第二百八十六條的修正，為什麼今天這麼多委員要提這個修正案？這個背景，我想你大概也知道，最重要就是剴剴事件，所以普遍社會上，現在大家對於這種凌虐幼童，不管他是十二歲以下或者六歲以下，這種年齡層的這些被害人，社會上普遍認為以現在的刑法第二百八十六條只對凌虐十八歲以下之人，我們特別把這部分加以處罰，而沒有去區分說他的犯罪客體，更小的小孩是不是要更加重？當然今天有很多的版本出來，剛才莊瑞雄委員也對很多委員的版本有提出他的高見。但是我想我還是要請教，不管是次長也好還是副秘書長也好，您認為現行第二百八十六條的刑法規定，有必要補強嗎？針對我剛才提到有關凌虐幼童這一部分，我們有必要再做刑事政策的補強考量嗎？政策上要如何來加強？先請次長簡單回答。"],["蔡次長碧仲：108年對於凌虐致重傷，就已經有到十年以上有期徒刑。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["蔡次長碧仲：因為凌虐致重傷五年以上、十二年以下，凌虐致死的話就是無期徒刑或者是十二年以上的有期徒刑。我跟委員報告，今天發生一個具體的案件，他凌虐他了，致重傷，依照他的情節就可以量處到十二年，這個比一般的致重傷都要重，如果把他凌虐死掉的話，就像目前這個具體案例，他可以判到十二年以上，甚至可以量處無期徒刑，所以……"],["林委員思銘：所以你認為刑度在現行的刑法……"],["蔡次長碧仲：現行法只要善用……"],["林委員思銘：也就是說對致重傷以及致死有相關的一個加重的處罰規定？"],["蔡次長碧仲：對，我也不避諱說這是法官量刑，應該要尊重，我們一再在大院裡面大聲疾呼。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["蔡次長碧仲：不要從最低法定刑開始量，你要從中間五年以上，十二年以下，你從中間去量……"],["林委員思銘：次長，您講的我都瞭解，我們都學法律，你講的，我都知道你的意思。"],["蔡次長碧仲：是。"],["林委員思銘：反正你是認為現行的刑法已經對於這種加重結果犯，凌虐造成死亡或者致重傷的結果都有加重的規定。"],["蔡次長碧仲：跟委員報告，我也會認同委員說可以再加重，但是問題就是他再加重……"],["林委員思銘：是，就立法政策上要怎麼樣來……因為現在發生這些事件，就是說當然已經到了凌虐致死或致重傷，這個就很嚴重了啦！"],["蔡次長碧仲：對。"],["林委員思銘：我現在問你的是，因為現在規定是十八歲，是不是對於六歲以下根本沒有抗拒能力的這些幼童，如果你是對這種孩子下手的話就要加重……"],["蔡次長碧仲：可以加重，可以。"],["林委員思銘：他沒有到死亡，沒有到重傷。"],["蔡次長碧仲：我瞭解，可以加重。"],["林委員思銘：這種情況，我們在立法例上面、刑事政策上面，是不是要做加重？"],["蔡次長碧仲：加重，我同意，對這個我不反對。"],["林委員思銘：對嘛！所以這個要加重。請問副秘書長？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：跟委員報告，當然第二百八十六條現在是針對十八歲以下，十八歲以下有三歲、有十七歲。"],["林委員思銘：是啊！"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：剛剛委員講說這中間應該要有一些區隔。"],["林委員思銘：是。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：要斟酌他有沒有抵抗的能力，他的支持程度到哪裡，做一些區隔，我相信這個刑事政策應該都是大院的職權，我們司法院大概不會有意見，而且區別地比較精密一點的話，法官將來在裁量的時候也會更有一些遵循……"],["林委員思銘：是，所以這部分做這樣一個修法是可行的啦？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：當然是大院的職權，只是上次剛好……"],["林委員思銘：沒關係，我想這部分如果兩位也肯定這樣一個見解，未來我們在討論的時候，我會提出這方面的修正動議。另外，對於凌虐幼童這種事件，我們看到一種情況，就是近五年來因為觸犯刑法第二百八十六條而被起訴或者被判刑的案件很少很少，我想請問一下，法務部或者司法院有沒有統計過這類型因為觸犯刑法第二百八十六條而被起訴的案件有多少？被判刑有罪的案件又有多少？有沒有做過統計？"],["蔡次長碧仲：有，本部有做統計。"],["林委員思銘：是，起訴幾件？"],["蔡次長碧仲：我們從108年開始，那時候是起訴了6件，109年是15件，110年是28件，111年是39件，112年是38件，113年一到二月是17件。"],["林委員思銘：這樣統計全部多少？"],["蔡次長碧仲：全部114件。"],["林委員思銘：總共五年合計，統計五年嘛！"],["蔡次長碧仲：五年114件。"],["林委員思銘：判決有罪的呢？"],["蔡次長碧仲：114人。"],["林委員思銘：好，114件有被起訴。"],["蔡次長碧仲：判決有罪的部分，量刑的情形跟委員報告……"],["林委員思銘：起訴後被判有罪、成立有罪的有幾件，你有統計嗎？"],["蔡次長碧仲：108年以來有48人確定，1件無罪。"],["林委員思銘：是，所以起訴大部分還是被判有罪？"],["蔡次長碧仲：幾乎，只有1件……"],["林委員思銘：秘書長的數據一樣嗎？就是你手頭上數據，檢察官起訴後被判有罪有多少？"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：我們這邊在108年科刑有罪判決5件，109年5件，110年就是十幾件，111年有二十幾件，112年有十幾件，大致上落差不大。"],["林委員思銘：判決也是將近100件。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：判決有罪的。"],["林委員思銘：這五年有罪大概100件。"],["黃副秘書長麟倫：一百多件。"],["林委員思銘：次長、秘書長，我是講真的，你認為那麼少嗎？這種案件，虐兒事件然後被起訴，真正的被發掘的有那麼少嗎？"],["蔡次長碧仲：那當然，就是黑數很多。"],["林委員思銘：黑數很多嘛！"],["蔡次長碧仲：那當然，瞭解。"],["林委員思銘：所以這部分，你們有統計啦，我現在請衛福部、教育部。請問衛福部，你們有統計嗎？針對法院判決，還有檢察官起訴的案件，案件多少？你們有做過數字的統計嗎？"],["郭副司長彩榕：這個部分，我們是有受理通報的統計，但這個案子如果後續進入到刑事偵查這邊，檢察官跟法院不一定會回報到我們這邊來，但我們只是接受人民的通報，我們會有……"],["林委員思銘：所以你們沒有主動去跟司法院或者跟法務部要資料、要相關數據來做統計，就是判決確定的案件有多少？你們都沒有做統計？"],["郭副司長彩榕：我們會有一期一期的統計，三個月的季報這個部分會有。"],["林委員思銘：有吧？我想會後你把你的統計數字提供給本席，你請回。"],["郭副司長彩榕：好。"],["林委員思銘：請問教育部，教育部有沒有？"],["葉組長信村：我們教育部有校安通報的統計。"],["林委員思銘：不是，我是說對法院的司法判決，還有檢察官起訴的案件有多少？你們有沒有做過統計？這個類型、這種虐兒事件到底發生了幾件？被判決幾件？你們教育部難道不用統計嗎？"],["葉組長信村：跟委員報告，因為我們沒有接獲法院的通知，當然，委員的指導，我們會來做……"],["林委員思銘：所以教育部都沒有做統計？"],["葉組長信村：是，目前沒有。"],["林委員思銘：這不是你們的業務嗎？不是你的業務嗎？"],["葉組長信村：委員，您說……"],["林委員思銘：校園安全防治這個工作，像這種統計數字，你不用去查嗎？你不用去瞭解嗎？你如何去瞭解現在社會上發生這麼多虐兒事件、虐童事件，這些數據你不用去調查嗎？"],["葉組長信村：發生的時候，我們會接獲校安通報。"],["林委員思銘：但最後的統計你要去做啊，否則你如何去建置這些社會安全網呢？我想教育部要加強了，這部分真的要加強了。"],["葉組長信村：好。"],["林委員思銘：不管法務部或司法院都是案子最後的處理、制裁機關，防制機關還是在衛福部以及教育部，所以我希望你們能夠做出相關的數字統計，去瞭解為什麼會有這麼多這種案子發生，並且好好檢討，建置出很好的安全網，好不好？因為時間關係，以後我再就其他問題就教，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請吳委員思瑤發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":226,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-13","speakers":["吳宗憲","傅崐萁","廖偉翔","王育敏","徐欣瑩","陳超明","鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","林思銘","吳思瑤","陳俊宇","黃國昌","翁曉玲","黃健豪"],"page_start":149,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"併案審查(一)委員黃健豪等20人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(二)委\n員徐巧芯等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員廖偉翔等19人\n擬具「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百七十二條之一條文修正草案」案、(四)委員王育敏等20\n人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員楊瓊瓔等20人擬具「中華民\n國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(六)委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八\n十六條及第二百八十六條之一條文修正草案」案、(七)國民黨黨團擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八\n十六條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員柯志恩等19人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)委員徐欣瑩等18人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案、(十)\n委員陳超明等22人擬具「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1132901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.72096875,"end":13.244093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.70346875,"end":20.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.90159375,"end":19.082843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.58909375,"end":19.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.70721875,"end":19.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.78659375,"end":26.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.836593750000002,"end":39.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.97409375,"end":46.994093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.75346875,"end":48.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.64784375,"end":51.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.39409375,"end":56.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.422843750000006,"end":58.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.94159375,"end":64.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.57346875,"end":78.55034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.34346875,"end":80.91284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.52034375000001,"end":81.72284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.09409375,"end":94.56471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.44221875000001,"end":100.52159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.74534375,"end":100.23471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.16284375000001,"end":103.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.06534375000001,"end":109.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.89971875,"end":121.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.32409375,"end":126.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.15034375,"end":128.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.02784375000002,"end":129.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.86284375,"end":133.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.33909375000002,"end":135.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.27971875,"end":138.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.89846875,"end":147.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.65346875,"end":148.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.02471875,"end":149.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.01596875,"end":151.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.58534375000002,"end":160.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":154.38659375,"end":154.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.47096875,"end":154.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":154.60596875000002,"end":154.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":158.77409375000002,"end":158.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.80784375000002,"end":159.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.39846875,"end":159.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.27159375000002,"end":162.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.54971875,"end":164.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.54096875000002,"end":166.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.70534375,"end":168.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.39284375,"end":170.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.81846875000002,"end":172.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.10096875000002,"end":183.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":184.00221875000003,"end":185.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":184.03596875000002,"end":193.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.95534375000003,"end":189.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.81096875,"end":192.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.04721875,"end":194.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.00909375,"end":194.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.02596875,"end":208.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.04284375,"end":194.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.59034375000002,"end":200.92784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.43721875,"end":224.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.63971875000001,"end":209.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.57596875000002,"end":212.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.40284375000002,"end":212.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.02971875,"end":229.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.53159375,"end":226.22346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.69596875000002,"end":243.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":231.99471875,"end":232.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.63534375,"end":236.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.68909375,"end":263.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":254.60721875000002,"end":255.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":256.24409375,"end":258.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.19659375000003,"end":267.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.94721875,"end":268.12409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.90471875000003,"end":267.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.46159375,"end":269.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.21659375,"end":297.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.60784375000003,"end":278.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.81409375000004,"end":281.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.27346875,"end":284.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.29034375000003,"end":285.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.26909375,"end":285.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.52471875000003,"end":301.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.38471875000005,"end":305.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.21971875,"end":323.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.94659375000003,"end":326.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":326.12346875000003,"end":331.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.06346875,"end":334.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.89846875,"end":342.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.74534375,"end":352.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":353.14034375,"end":355.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":355.40159375,"end":355.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.43534375,"end":356.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":356.02596875,"end":356.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.07659375000003,"end":356.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":356.12721875,"end":356.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":357.00471875,"end":358.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":360.04221875,"end":367.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":367.65284375000005,"end":368.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":369.05346875000004,"end":370.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":371.48346875000004,"end":381.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.28784375000004,"end":381.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.11034375,"end":384.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.78096875,"end":385.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.65846875,"end":386.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.08034375,"end":386.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":386.70471875000004,"end":386.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.73846875000004,"end":386.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":386.83971875000003,"end":387.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.66659375,"end":388.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":388.03784375000004,"end":388.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.07159375000003,"end":401.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":388.79721875,"end":390.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":392.72909375,"end":393.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":399.32721875000004,"end":404.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.38159375000004,"end":402.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.65971875,"end":408.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.84534375000004,"end":405.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":408.79409375,"end":408.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.81096875000003,"end":408.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":408.82784375,"end":409.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":411.44346875,"end":413.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":414.05909375000005,"end":414.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":416.01659375,"end":418.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":419.32409375000003,"end":419.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.34096875,"end":421.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":421.19721875000005,"end":422.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":422.96909375,"end":424.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.84659375,"end":431.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.22971875,"end":429.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.11534375,"end":438.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.06784375,"end":451.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.73721875,"end":459.48659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.44534375,"end":454.84596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.94721875000005,"end":454.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":455.31846875,"end":455.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":455.77409375,"end":455.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.82471875000005,"end":455.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":456.06096875000003,"end":456.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.19596875,"end":456.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":460.76909375,"end":462.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.17409375000005,"end":468.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":468.07596875,"end":468.76784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":469.05471875,"end":470.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.13471875000005,"end":471.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":470.20221875000004,"end":470.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.87284375,"end":471.92346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":471.92346875000004,"end":472.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.02471875000003,"end":472.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.51409375000003,"end":473.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.31971875000005,"end":474.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.92721875,"end":478.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.60596875000005,"end":479.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.90534375000004,"end":481.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.83721875000003,"end":490.70534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.70534375000005,"end":507.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.31034375,"end":515.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.4440937500001,"end":516.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":515.8490937500001,"end":517.7053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.67159375,"end":523.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":524.11784375,"end":533.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":543.3047187500001,"end":543.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.35534375,"end":543.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":543.37221875,"end":543.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.38909375,"end":544.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":544.0134687500001,"end":546.2409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":544.3172187499999,"end":544.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.44346875,"end":560.8547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":561.09096875,"end":564.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":564.44909375,"end":565.5122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":565.98471875,"end":569.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":569.8659687500001,"end":570.3047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.95034375,"end":571.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":571.21596875,"end":572.4140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.93721875,"end":574.9453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.9240937500001,"end":577.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":579.48471875,"end":581.0203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":580.90221875,"end":593.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":593.9128437500001,"end":596.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":596.66346875,"end":598.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":598.94159375,"end":601.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":601.0847187500001,"end":601.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":601.13534375,"end":601.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":602.16471875,"end":602.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":602.26596875,"end":605.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":607.0247187500001,"end":610.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":611.3784687500001,"end":612.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.09971875,"end":616.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.93034375,"end":623.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":623.98409375,"end":627.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":628.20284375,"end":636.6909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":636.87659375,"end":641.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":641.63534375,"end":642.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.54659375,"end":643.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":643.22159375,"end":643.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":644.0147187499999,"end":648.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":648.7734687500001,"end":650.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":650.3090937500001,"end":651.11909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.796,"end":35.19,"text":"三）委員黃健豪等20人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12次全體委員會議．立法院第13次全體委員會議．立法院第14次全體委員會議．立法院第15次全體委員會議．立法院第16次全體委員會議．立法院第17次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第18次全體委員會議．立法院第19次全體委員會議．立法院第19次全體委員會議．立法院第20次全體委員會議．立法院第21次全體委員會議�"},{"start":35.373,"end":50.541,"text":"事上我們想我們這一次對這個刑法兩百八十六條的這個修正當然為什麼今天我們這麼多委員會要提這個修正案這個背景我想你大概也知道了最重要就是那個凱凱事件"},{"start":52.415,"end":55.076,"text":"刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案．刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案．刑法第二百八十六條條文"},{"start":83.022,"end":106.15,"text":"刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12屆刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆刑法第二屆刑法第二屆刑法第二屆刑法第二屆刑法第二屆刑法第二屆刑法第二屆刑法第二屆刑法第二屆刑法第二屆刑法第二屆刑法第二屆刑法第二屆刑法第二屆刑法第二屆刑法第二屆刑法第二屆刑法第二屆刑法第二"},{"start":110.953,"end":112.854,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":145.942,"end":170.456,"text":"十年以上有期徒刑。那麼因為凌虐致重傷五年以上十二年以下凌虐致死的話就是無期徒刑或者是十二年以上的有期徒刑那我跟委員報告今天發生一個具體的案件他凌虐他了致重傷他就可以量處到依照他的情節可以量處到十二年"},{"start":172.103,"end":197.22,"text":"這個比那個一般的自重傷都要重那如果把他零內像目前這個具體案例死掉的話他可以判到12年以上甚至可以釀除無期徒刑所以你認為刑度現行的刑法已經有被自重傷以及自死有相關的一個加重的一個處罰規定我也不避諱說這是法官釀刑應該要尊重"},{"start":197.92,"end":209.864,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":224.228,"end":224.348,"text":"條文規定"},{"start":243.817,"end":244.538,"text":"三）委員黃健豪等19人擬具"},{"start":270.149,"end":296.133,"text":"根委員報告那當然286條現在是針對18歲以下那18歲以下有3歲也有17歲的話那麼跟他委員講說這中間應該要去一些區隔嘛那斟酌他的那個有沒有抵抗的能力他的支持度到哪裡去做一些區隔我相信這個刑事政策應該都是大人的職權我相信我們司法委員大概不會有意見而且區別的比較精明一點的話法官將來在裁的時候也會更有一些遵循"},{"start":296.613,"end":306.697,"text":"條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":326.186,"end":331.431,"text":"條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員"},{"start":353.191,"end":380.808,"text":"有本部有做統計是起訴幾件我們這個以這個我們從一百零八零開始那時候的話是起訴了一個六件一百零九是十五件一百一十是二十八件一百一十一年是三十九件一百一十二年是三十八件一百一十三年一到兩月是十七件"},{"start":383.677,"end":389.2,"text":"統計全部多少?總共5年合計統計5年114件 判決有罪的部分量刑的情形分為報告"},{"start":411.496,"end":431.349,"text":"一﹐一百零八年以來有四十八人確定了。四十八。要一件無罪。所以起訴大部分還是被判有罪?那民進黨的數據一樣嗎?就是你手上的數據是假官起訴之後被判有罪的有多少?"},{"start":432.179,"end":447.787,"text":"三）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案．一）委員徐巧芯等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二"},{"start":460.805,"end":480.843,"text":"三）委員廖偉翔等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第七十七條及第二百八十六條條文修正草案案 案件,涅槃事件,然後被起訴,真的被發掘的那麼少嗎?那當然啦,這是黑訴很多嘛。那當然。所以這部分,你們有統計啦,我現在請衛福部教育部,衛福部,你們衛福部有統計嗎?"},{"start":483.885,"end":487.908,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第13次全體委員會"},{"start":501.5,"end":513.332,"text":"條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會議等19人擬具:「中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會議等19人擬具 «中華民國刑法第二百八十六條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會議等19人擬具"},{"start":524.121,"end":524.321,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":543.405,"end":560.074,"text":"我們教育部有銷案通報的統計不是我說對法院司法判決還有檢察官起訴的案件有多少你們有沒有做過統計這類行政戀兒事件到底發生了幾件被判決幾件你們教育部難道不用統計嗎"},{"start":561.615,"end":567.999,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會議（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會議"},{"start":579.709,"end":586.612,"text":"條文修正草案案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制委員會第13次全體委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法制委員會及法"},{"start":607.062,"end":607.202,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":611.414,"end":611.874,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":641.374,"end":644.238,"text":"條文修正草案 案。"}]}},{"id":"151242","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151242","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627aa466fc5da218c4e0915613d02a5e1dcc5dab72e655c1c94a44382e63844f4285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"10:25:48 - 10:38:54","影片長度":"00:13:06","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n（4月17日及18日二天一次會））","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-8"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":786,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:38:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:25:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":387,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（10時26分）謝謝召委，也請潘部長。"],["主席：部長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：部長，你好。首先我為原住民的國教感謝你，因為我跟立法院的前輩在討論的時候，知道您在這個部分的背景，對於原住民在國教的區塊，目前有一些往前走的成果，後續高教的部分，我也期待我們能夠像先前一樣繼續地把它連結起來，一直到整個終身學習。"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：接下來，因為今天討論的主題是針對這30年教育的狀況。先請教部長，這30年教育改革的推動，就您個人而言，如果要跟社會整體來討論這30年來最正面的價值，您會怎麼樣來談這30年的教改？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，其實410教改的倡議是因應當時的時空背景，委員也知道，臺灣在早期有相當長時間的戒嚴，所以很多方面是受到一些比較嚴格的規範，包含教育，410之所以有這樣的倡議，是希望能夠有更多鬆綁，然後慢慢回到孩子、學生是一個很重要的學習主體，當然委員也瞭解，教育的本質一直在強調應該要瞭解學生的個別差異、適性發展，這個概念走下來，可以看到臺灣的教育更加多元、活潑，包含剛剛委員提醒的，實驗教育也是為了讓家長有選擇，因為不一定每個家長對孩子的選擇都一樣，所以像實驗教育三法的通過也是用這樣的基礎，讓很多也許不太習慣體制內學校的孩子有其他選擇。我是舉例說明，我想這樣的概念都可以看得出來，越來越能夠讓臺灣的教育朝向多元、適性發展的機會，這個是可以看到的，當然現代化也有很大的進展。"],["林委員倩綺：所以就是以學生為主體，能夠有多元的發展。"],["潘部長文忠：是，我想不只410，這個應該是一個教育不變的準則，本來每個孩子就有各種不同的潛能、興趣，如果透過一個比較標準化製造出同樣的產品，這個大概不是410，臺灣的教育也不應該這樣發展，包含這幾年我一直都秉持著應該要調整體制，讓孩子多有機會，而不是用唯一的篩選標準，讓學生覺得反正就是用這套標準，你的能力在這方面，你就在這方面；不能……","所以我要跟委員報告，單一標準很嚴格的篩選，其實是製造了非常多學習的挫敗者，因為不是每個孩子對課業都有興趣……"],["林委員倩綺：也就是在對學習者的主體，然後讓他有一個多元的選擇，應該是您對於教改這個區塊在這幾年實行下來比較正面的價值。"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["林委員倩綺：但是在配合這個的過程當中，或許有一些未竟之處，這也是我們今天要探討的一個主題，我們知道少子女化大概是這幾十年來一直在談的問題，依據你們的資料，大概90年，然後過了千禧年之後，一直到今天，整個出生率成為學校在招生過程當中很重要的準則，但少子女化應該是我們很早就預期到的，早上我也聽到您說，可能在千禧年的時候就發現這個問題還蠻大的，但是那之後也因為廣設大學，當時應該有一些討論，也導致今天變成有一些大學要退場。","在這邊我想要探討的是，當時410教改的訴求有簡報上這幾項，剛才我有聽到柯委員說廣設高中大學跟人口取向有矛盾之處，其實就我而言，我也覺得是有點矛盾啦！我就提出其中一點，你們那時候主張的小班小校，本來是規定在專科以上學校維護學生受教權益應行注意事項裡面，結果你們所規定出來的東西好像跟小班小校有一點衝突，如果你們期待能提升某些師生比，但是我們又不懂為什麼低於這些人數就不行？明明主張小班小校，卻又不准低於某些人數，請問學生的受教權跟你們的邏輯在哪裡？這就有點像明明是少子化，但是又廣設高中大學，這樣現在會碰到問題絕對是必然的，所以這就是我們目前在討論的狀況，過去的就已經過去了，但我們要討論的是，現在的狀況是什麼？未來我們該怎麼處理？","我們一直很關心私立高級中等以上學校退場條例，接下來簡稱退場條例好了，因為這幾年的少子女化跟廣設大學其實是連在一起的。前幾年你們訂定了很嚴苛的退場條例，近幾年已經有幾所學校受到了影響，在退場條例裡面，很重要的就是第六條。我們在學界常常都說你們「輔導即輔倒」，只要進入你們的專案輔導，大概就真的只有倒了。為什麼會有這個原因？其實裡面有好幾個細項我們應該來討論，比如說，董事會的結構、老師的轉業以及學生的權益，這是在退場條例裡面最重要的三個主體，而現在碰到的實際狀況是，你們在第六條裡面規定有這些情事，你們可能就會預警，要介入所謂的退場。","另外，你們有一些停辦實施原則，有些東西我們也很好奇，像學生不滿多少人或是新生註冊率低於六成，就一定跟辦學不好有直接的連帶嗎？我們不太清楚。註冊率不佳未必跟教學品質不好有直接關係，但你們所訂定的量化標準，有的時候在質化的部分反倒是產生一個矛盾的現象。為什麼不能在這個部分有一些其他的可能性？比如說，推廣教育或是開設遠距課程，因為這個原因不見得就是品質不好，也有可能是因為地域的關係，所以這個部分可不可以請部裡面再去討論跟瞭解……"],["潘部長文忠：委員，不好意思，我跟你打岔一下。剛才委員提到的這兩個，之前就有一些規範，因為我們認為在執行上不是那麼合適，所以剛剛講的三千人其實已經取消了，因為我們也覺得有些學校就是走精緻、比較規模的……"],["林委員倩綺：它或許是精緻化，然後非常優質化……"],["潘部長文忠：對，所以這個已經不存在。至於剛才講的註冊率不佳，也不是專輔的條件，之前在推動的過程當中，也得到學校的一些反應，如果它是合理的要往這樣的方向去規劃，但以這樣的方式就被列入專輔，我們認為反而是一個限制啦！"],["林委員倩綺：對，所以其實部裡面……"],["潘部長文忠：剛才委員提到的這兩點，我跟委員報告，我們也一直在強調，教育本來就是要不斷的瞭解現場去修正……"],["林委員倩綺：就像你剛才講的多元，然後跟現場……"],["潘部長文忠：對，我跟委員補充，剛才那兩個已經修正了，不會以這個為條件。"],["林委員倩綺：好的。另外，這個制度的設計讓我們覺得教育部的作法好像只是要止損，而不是要讓學校起死回生，這個部分會關係到我待會要講的東西，就是我們想要瞭解部裡面對於這30年來在現在所碰到的問題，跟未來我們到底要怎麼走向，我覺得現在討論會比較有點正面的效益。這個制度讓一些學校感覺到你們好像在防賊，寧願不准，好像它如果變得不好，你是寧願不准，到最後它只能退場。其實私校的轉型也是部裡面一個很重要的責任，有關董事會的部分，如果進入了專輔，你們就會指定董事，可是公益董事跟整個董事及這個學校可能沒有關係，到最後他們就會依照你們的準則輔導學校，導致一個結果就是專案輔導的學校真的就倒了。非專案輔導的學校，就像今天萬委員提到的大漢技術學院，他們預期會有這種現象，乾脆就自己先倒，董事會能夠拿的東西就趕快拿，因為你們的規定嚴苛，會影響到三個群體，一個是董事會，他要辦學，當然他可能有辦學的心，但也必須要相當的利潤；再來是學生，學生的部分應該要原校原系，像剛才柯委員提到的，被轉了一個學校，然後轉的那個學校也是搖搖欲墜，或者有些就倒了，然後再轉第二次，學生能真正完成學業嗎？其實也很難。還有你們的政策我也看不太懂，就是很多學校已經都沒有生源了，結果國立大學還一直不斷擴編科系增加名額，就這一點我想請問，我們未來的路線究竟是要國家化，還是要自由競爭市場？也就是要嘛像歐洲的公共化，要不然就像美國的自由競爭市場，那你們就不要去卡私立學校，它可以很優質化，像現在很多高中以下的私立學校是家長會讓學生去的地方，可是你們又好像不是要做到公共化，你增加了國立大學的名額，然後私校當然以後就一定會消失，所以我不知道你到底是要往公共化的方向走，還是就自由競爭？就是不要限制私立學校的學費，也不要限制私立學校的某一些東西，就自由競爭市場，讓私立學校跟公立學校一起競爭，那也不盡然就會是現在這樣的排名，所以可不可以讓我們知道中華民國的高教，究竟要何去何從？因為現在是一個關鍵點。"],["潘部長文忠：是，謝謝……"],["林委員倩綺：好，部長，不好意思，最後我再為我們原住民學生發一個聲。感謝部長，您有跟我提到原住民的部分可以從產攜合作計畫2.0去投入，但是我把國際專班跟產攜合作兩個拉出來，光每一個月的津貼就有差異，產攜合作當然不是只有原住民，但為什麼臺灣的學生拿的一定比國際學生少？為什麼國際學生最後都是在臺灣很重要的高等工業和科技，而產攜合作的學生，可能要做黑手跟藍領？這個部分是不是可以請部裡面再整合討論一下，好嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：是，這個我簡單補充一下就好了。剛才談到私校董事會的部分，因為過去我們也看過有董事會是瞬間拍拍走人，把師生留給政府、留給他們自己解決，所以為什麼要再加入其他董事，就是當他列為專輔時，需要有一些跟這個有關的老師或學生代表成為公益董事，我想委員應該也可以瞭解，因為他們是生命共同體。第二個，針對臺灣高教招生的部分我也跟委員報告，目前各行各業都缺，教育部的政策是比較希望公私一起努力，不會只是由公立增加招生名額，比如資通訊名額，一開始確實很多業界都希望是國立大學，我們告訴他很多私立大學的科系也辦得很優秀，所以已經把這個部分有比較衡平的處理。另外有關產攜部分，詳細的資料再給委員補充說明，因為背景不太一樣。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝部長，我們就繼續一起努力，也祝福你。謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，接下來請陳秀寳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-8","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","郭昱晴","陳培瑜","吳沛憶","林倩綺","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","葛如鈞","林宜瑾","張雅琳","葉元之","吳春城","范雲","張嘉郡","羅智強","徐欣瑩","牛煦庭","廖偉翔","莊瑞雄","劉建國","王鴻薇","陳冠廷"],"page_start":99,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請教育部部長潘文忠列席就「教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨整併退場之問題及對策」\n進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133001_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.8615937500000004,"end":10.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.82659375,"end":15.589718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.69096875,"end":16.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.53846875,"end":49.508468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.508468750000006,"end":49.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.57596875,"end":50.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.59284375,"end":50.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.33534375,"end":50.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.65596875,"end":50.672843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.672843750000006,"end":50.689718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.28034375,"end":78.80346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.93846875,"end":86.14409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.27909375,"end":89.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.97471875000001,"end":157.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.36096875,"end":129.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.90096875,"end":130.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.24284375000002,"end":161.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.31409375,"end":194.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.56596875000002,"end":199.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.15596875,"end":203.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.12596875000003,"end":204.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.45471875,"end":204.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.97784375,"end":217.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.43159375000002,"end":351.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.04346875000005,"end":353.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.76034375,"end":451.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.44596875,"end":449.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.50909375000003,"end":501.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.81659375000004,"end":454.00221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.22409375,"end":467.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.89034375000006,"end":469.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.54346875000005,"end":474.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.46971875,"end":489.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.43471875000006,"end":498.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.03284375000004,"end":501.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.97784375000003,"end":559.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.99409375,"end":607.8347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.88096875,"end":677.4272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.25409375,"end":720.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":678.50721875,"end":679.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":721.36971875,"end":733.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.4309687500001,"end":781.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":777.66471875,"end":781.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":781.2253437500001,"end":781.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":781.9678437500002,"end":782.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":782.0522187500001,"end":782.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":782.11971875,"end":782.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":782.13659375,"end":783.2334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":782.5247187500001,"end":782.98034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.028,"end":9.357,"text":"我們也順便報告我們在第9位羅廷文委員質詢完畢之後我們就休息5分鐘謝謝"},{"start":19.822,"end":33.079,"text":"委員好部長你好首先我為原住民的這個國教這邊感謝你因為我跟立法院的前輩在討論的時候那因為您在這個部分的一個背景對原住民在國教的這個區塊那目前我們有一些往前走的一個"},{"start":38.726,"end":41.108,"text":"接下來因為今天討論的主題就這30年教育的一個狀況"},{"start":58.641,"end":72.918,"text":"那我想先請教部長那這30年的這個教育的改革推動部長這邊如果就您個人而言我們如果要跟社會整體來討論這樣這30年來最正面的一個價值您會怎麼樣來談這30年的一個教改"},{"start":78.945,"end":81.687,"text":"410教改的倡議是因應當時的時空背景那是台灣在早期有相當長時間的戒嚴即使在很多的"},{"start":94.714,"end":122.677,"text":"是受到一些比較嚴格的規範包含教育那410之所以這樣的倡議比較希望能夠有更多鬆綁然後慢慢回到孩子學生是一個很重要的一個學習主體當然委員也了解這個教育的本質一直在強調那種應該要讓學生個別差異適性發展這個概念即使走下來410在這方面也看到台灣的教育其實更加的多元活潑包含剛才委員在提醒"},{"start":123.417,"end":143.916,"text":"實驗教育也是因為讓家長有一個選擇因為不一定每個家長對孩子的選擇都一樣所以像實驗教育三法的通過也是用這樣的一個基礎讓很多孩子也許不太習慣在我們體制內的學校但這樣的概念我想都可以我是舉例說明可以看得出來"},{"start":144.557,"end":145.138,"text":"所以就是以學生為主體．我想這個應該是"},{"start":162.597,"end":174.627,"text":"這應該是一個教育不變的然後你怎麼可能把所有的孩子本來就有各種不同的潛能興趣然後透過一個比較標準化製造出同樣的產品這個大概不是410台灣的教育也應該這樣的發展包含這幾年我一直都秉持真的應該讓體制調整來讓孩子多有機會而不是用唯一的篩選標準"},{"start":185.797,"end":187.459,"text":"所以我要跟委員報告很嚴格的篩選單一的標準其實是製造了非常多學習的挫敗者因為不是每個孩子都對科學有興趣"},{"start":205.261,"end":210.925,"text":"對學習者的主體然後讓他有一個多元的選擇應該是能對教改這個區塊這幾年實行的一個比較正面的一個價值但是在配合這樣一個過程當中或許有一些未盡之處所以我想這是我們今天探討一個主題"},{"start":225.756,"end":226.456,"text":"〈小子女化問題〉"},{"start":243.402,"end":254.651,"text":"的過程當中一個很重要的準則所以那但是少子女化應該是我們很早就預期到早上我也聽到您說可能在千禧年的時候那發現這個問題還蠻大的但是那之後呢因為也廣設大學而一直導致當時當然應該有一些討論而導致今天呢變成有一些大學要退場"},{"start":266.02,"end":286.649,"text":"在這邊我想要探討的是當時410的這個教改的訴求有這幾項那剛才我有聽到委員說這個我們科學委員說這個廣設高中大學跟這個人口的取向其實就我而言我也覺得是有點矛盾那但是我就提出其中一點那你們在那個時候主張的小班小校"},{"start":287.89,"end":304.28,"text":"倒是在你們專科以上學校維護學生授教權益應該注意的這個事項辦法裡面呢那結果你們所規定出來的東西好像跟這個小班小校是有一點衝突所以如果你們期待有某一些師生餅"},{"start":305.1,"end":324.471,"text":"但是我們又不懂為什麼低於這一些人數那就不行小班小校然後又不准我們低於某一些人數那這個學生的受教權跟邏輯在哪裡就有點像明明在少子化但是我們又廣設高中大學那這樣似乎我們不知道說那現在會碰到問題是絕對必然的嗎"},{"start":326.132,"end":352.888,"text":"所以這是我們現在今年在討論目前的這個狀況那過去的已經過去了我們可能要討論的是現在的狀況是什麼那未來我們怎麼處理那我們一直很關心的這個就是私立高級中等學校的一個退場條例那我們接下來簡稱退場條例好了因為這幾年的這個少子女化然後跟廣設大學其實是連在一起的"},{"start":355.05,"end":374.965,"text":"前幾年你們訂定了這個很嚴苛的這個退場條例那近幾年已經有幾個學校已經受到了這個影響那你們在退場條例裡面大概很重要的就是在這個第6條這邊有提到有一些學校我們在那個學界常常都說你們輔導就即輔導只要是進入你們的這個專案輔導大概就真的只有導了"},{"start":379.468,"end":383.092,"text":"為什麼會有這個原因其實裡面有好幾個那個細項我們應該來討論比如說董事會的一個結構老師的這個轉業還有學生的權益那這是在退場條例裡面最重要的三個主體"},{"start":396.223,"end":421.001,"text":"現在碰到了一個實際的狀況就是你們在第6條裡面規定有這些情勢那你們可能就會預警也會要介入這所謂的退場那我們再往下看那另外還有你們一些停辦的一些實施原則那有些東西我們也就很好奇說那學生不滿多少人或者是新生註冊率低於六成這個一定跟辦學不好有直接的連帶嗎我們不太清楚註冊率不佳"},{"start":423.343,"end":427.107,"text":"在這個部分有一些其他的可能性比如說推廣教育或者是開設遠距離的課程因為這個原因不見得就是品質不好也有可能是因為地域的關係"},{"start":446.167,"end":452.089,"text":"所以這個部分是可不可以請那個部理念再去做一個那個討論跟了解剛才委員提到這兩個之前就是有一些規範我們認為在質詢上是不是那麼合適啦所以剛才講那個什麼3000人這個其實已經取消"},{"start":461.713,"end":469.86,"text":"因為我們也覺得說有些學校就走精緻﹑比較規模的﹑它或許是精緻化﹑然後﹑對﹑對﹑對﹑所以這個已經不存在﹑非常優質化﹑對﹑對﹑對當然講那個注冊力不佳﹑這個也不是專府的條件這個就是之前可能在推動的過程當中﹑也得到學校的一些反應因為它是合理的要往這樣的方向去做規劃如果以這樣的方式就被類專府﹑就我們認為反而是一個限制"},{"start":487.335,"end":489.557,"text":"我跟委員提到這兩點我跟我報告在我們也經過一直在強調一個教育本來就是要不斷的去了解現場去做修正然後跟現場我跟委員補充這兩個已經做修正不會以這個為條件"},{"start":506.153,"end":525.105,"text":"教育部的一個做法好像只要止損而不是讓學校起死回生那這個部分會關係到我待會要講的東西就是說我們想要了解現在部裡面對於這30年來在現在所碰到的問題跟未來我們到底要什麼走向這個是我覺得現在討論會比較有點正面的效益"},{"start":527.326,"end":550.035,"text":"讓一些學校感覺到你們好像在防賊那那個情願不准好像他如果變得不好那你是情願不准到最後他只能退場那其實私校的一個轉型也是部裡面有很重要的責任那你們是不是應該其實董事會的部分我們知道其實你們都會等於是他如果進入了這個專府那你們就會指定董事那可是這個"},{"start":550.755,"end":550.955,"text":"主席"},{"start":567.916,"end":581.311,"text":"外委員也講到就是大漢技術學院那他乾脆他預期有這種現象那我乾脆自己先倒那我董事會能夠拿的東西那我就趕快拿那因為你們的規定嚴苛那影響到三個群體一個是董事會"},{"start":582.792,"end":606.038,"text":"他要辦學當然他可能有辦學的心那他當然相當的利潤他也必須要的然後再來是學生那學生的部分那他應該要有學校原地像剛才科委員這邊也提到被轉了一個學校然後那個轉了之後呢這個學校也是搖搖欲墜或者有些就倒了他再轉了第二次他能夠真正完成其實也很難所以那"},{"start":609.059,"end":634.434,"text":"還有你們的那個政策我也看不太懂就是已經很多學校都沒有生源了結果國立大學也一直不斷擴編科系跟增加員額那這一點我就想要問所以我們未來的路線究竟是要國家化還是要像自由競爭市場也就是要嘛我們像歐洲的公共化要不然就像美國的自由競爭市場你們就不要去卡私立學校它可以很優質化"},{"start":635.755,"end":636.856,"text":"但我們不知道你到底是往公共化的方向走"},{"start":653.644,"end":676.575,"text":"那還是那OK我就自由競爭那我也不要去限制你學費私立學校學費我也不要去限制你私立學校的某一些東西那我們就自由競爭市場那我們私立學校跟公立學校一起來競爭那也不盡然會是現在的這樣子的排名所以可不可以讓我們知道中華民國的高教究竟你們要何去何從現在是一個關鍵點"},{"start":678.511,"end":682.474,"text":"最後我再為我們原住民學生發一個聲號不好意思那個感謝部長您有跟我講原住民的這個部分我們可以從這個產西合作的這個2.0去投入但是我們光把這兩個國際專班跟產西合作光是每一個月的今天拉出來"},{"start":698.285,"end":698.845,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":722.372,"end":739.966,"text":"委員這個我簡單補充一下就好了剛才談到對於私校董事會的這部分因為我們也看過也有董事會即使瞬間拍拍走人私生留給政府留給他們去所以為什麼要再加入當他列為專府"},{"start":740.706,"end":757.262,"text":"需要有一些跟這個有關的老師或學生代表成為公益董事我想委員可以了解因為他們是生命共同體那第二個委員針對臺灣的高教環環招生這部分我也跟委員報告各行各業都缺目前教育部的政策也比較希望"},{"start":757.782,"end":758.162,"text":"謝謝部長 我們繼續一起努力 那祝福你好 謝謝委員 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151241","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151241","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f016276faf2534e0eb08b4b57f63d1b53b7532c5dab72e655c1c9480da92c86ab9bf975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"10:25:38 - 10:37:28","影片長度":"00:11:50","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-12"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":710,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:37:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:25:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":617,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（10時25分）謝謝主席。麻煩請一下薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["邱委員鎮軍：涂委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：薛部長，請問一下一般事業廢棄物減量，也就是大家講的減少家用垃圾，過去像地方政府有推行隨袋徵收，也就是民眾去購買專用垃圾袋，才能把垃圾丟進垃圾車，採取以量計價、減少垃圾製造量的方式，我不知道環境部有沒有針對這個政策進行過檢討評估？"],["薛部長富盛：跟涂委員報告，事實上我們有檢討，因為臺北市率先來實施，根據臺北市的經驗，事實上效果相當好，至少可以減少兩成到三成，現在除了臺北市、新北市也在實施，還有臺中市石岡區，我們的概念基本上是這樣子，分階段、分區域來實施，像桃園也有幾個里，我想涂委員應該也很瞭解，我們也很高興看到桃園市八德區、龜山區有4個里要來推動。所以我們不必再以整個市或者縣，因為那個的確太大，每個地方因地制宜，情況也不一樣，我們就是鼓勵朝這個方向，因為終究要走這個方向。"],["涂委員權吉：在這邊跟薛部長報告一下，其實不是只有減少兩成，針對我們去調查這個報告，臺北市從2000年，從最早的差不多3,000噸，20年過去了，它是每年逐年下降，到現在大概只剩1,000噸，所以它可以達到減量差不多六成，重點是垃圾隨袋徵收有一定相當的效果。"],["薛部長富盛：是，我認同。"],["涂委員權吉：而且顯示從源頭減量有達到非常大的效果，尤其像現在桃園這10年來人口增加幅度非常大，現在已經到兩百三十幾萬人，從2021年來看一般廢棄物的生產量，那個時候是127萬噸，到去年一口氣增加到133萬噸，而且看得出來是成比例一直在增加。目前桃園人也不打算再蓋更多的焚化爐，因為民眾對於空氣污染都是非常反對。民眾不願意興建焚化爐，所以我覺得源頭減量是很重要的，不知道環境部有沒有將此列入重要的政策之一？"],["薛部長富盛：是，這個事實上是我們重要的政策之一，當然我們考量的就是在稍微比較偏鄉的地方這塊的實施上有一些挑戰，所以我們就是找比較都會化的區域，而且當然那個社區或者那個鄰里有自覺，願意來加入隨袋徵收的行列，環境部事實上會給予一些獎勵的措施。"],["涂委員權吉：好，今天本席會提出，主要是因為我們看到這份報告，大概就是簡單的一句話帶過去，好像對隨袋徵收沒有相當重視，我們希望好的政策環境部能夠重視，也希望能夠儘快針對這個評估、推動做出報告，儘快推動好的政策。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝涂委員期許垂詢。"],["涂委員權吉：接下來我們再請部長來看一下大潭電廠排放黑煙的問題，這是民眾陳情出來的，你看一下這個照片，3月30號（3月底）下午3點38分，民眾拍攝到空氣污染、排放黑煙的照片，不知道的人還以為是不是發生事故、發生火災，這個黑煙非常地濃，濃濃的黑煙。然後又再到4月15號，一樣又有民眾拍到排放黑煙，非常嚴重，重點是環保局去稽查，居然說現場及周邊未見濃煙散布，而且最主要這還有發生非常嚴重的巨響達半個小時，可是環保局去稽查居然都說沒有。所以民眾真的覺得不可思議，你看他們都拍下了這些照片、這些證據，而且我們等一下聽一下3公里外震耳欲聾的聲響，我先簡單播放給大家聽一下。","（播放聲音）"],["涂委員權吉：這3公里以外喔！民眾遠遠就可以錄下這個聲響，而且他是看到前面濃煙之後，他去旁邊3公里外還錄到這個震耳欲聾的聲響。針對這一部分，我之前其實有跟部長提過我們桃園觀音大潭電廠還有環科園區空污非常非常地嚴重，而且你看民眾也檢舉，都拍下那麼多照片，然後這個這麼大的聲響，3公里以外都還錄得這麼清楚，不知道到底有沒有改善的方法？"],["薛部長富盛：我跟涂委員報告，我們國家環境研究院現在有發展一個技術，透過光學的方式、科技的方式針對黑煙可以做拍照，然後來分析那裡面到底有沒有一些包括毒化物，以及是不是排放的PM2.5等等有沒有超標，我們來跟……因為正好我們國環院也是在桃園。"],["涂委員權吉：對啊！你剛剛看那個那麼濃的黑煙，你覺得那個空污會標準嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：當然不曉得它只是譬如說一個……就如同我們機車還是汽車，早期啟動的時候開始會突然間冒一個黑煙，瞬時的，接下來就沒了，我不曉得它是持續的還是說……"],["涂委員權吉：所以我希望環境部也跟地方環保局……"],["薛部長富盛：對，跟桃園市政府……"],["涂委員權吉：密切好好地來聯繫一下，因為大潭電廠周邊這些居民他們說如果真的沒辦法改善，希望我們能夠提出遷村的計畫，他說他們反映到覺得已經投降了，而且環保局各單位去都說沒有問題，他說你看這反映到他們覺得已經束手無策。我們也知道大潭電廠這7部機組的排放量就高達933公噸，是我們全桃園最大固定的污染源，而且現在馬上8號機組也要投入。然後桃園大潭電廠也是粒狀污染物的榜首，每年達30萬公噸，甚至超過我們桃園的煉油廠。我知道我們環境部應該有一些科技執法的部分，是不是有建置完善的空氣黑盒子？還是監測、監控，配合無人機，有沒有辦法把這些問題來做一個澈底的改善？"],["薛部長富盛：好，我們來研究看看如何來協助大潭地區大潭電廠排放黑煙的問題，好不好？"],["涂委員權吉：好，這部分希望部長能夠協助來解決，謝謝部長。我想請一下經濟部產業發展署的連署長。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝涂委員。"],["連署長錦漳：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：連署長，我請問一下，美商科慕你應該知道吧？你知道這個廠吧！"],["連署長錦漳：是。"],["涂委員權吉：這個外國廠當初要來設廠的時候應該是經過我們經濟部申請登記，對不對？"],["連署長錦漳：如果是外商要來投資要經過我們這邊審查。"],["涂委員權吉：我今天要凸顯一下，因為它在去年7月28號無預警在4天前跟全廠的員工說他們過4天就要關廠。也不知道為什麼這麼急，匆匆忙忙地要去關廠。你看它從2023年8月5號說要開始解僱員工，可是這一連串、這中間，你看2023年10月12號，防火磚砸死2人；然後土壤及地下水檢測報告，又被開罰15萬；後來又因為鹽酸管線破裂，毒死了上萬條的魚，整個大堀溪都被鹽酸嚴重地污染。這一連串的問題，我想瞭解這個工廠歇業申請書，是不是有土壤污染檢測報告提供的必要才能做歇業？"],["連署長錦漳：我跟委員報告，如果是工廠要歇業，要先跟地方政府提出申請，然後根據土污法，因為它只是歇業，沒有要過戶，所以如果它沒有要移轉的時候，土污這一塊是還不用先去做一些檢測證明，因為它只有做歇業。"],["涂委員權吉：好，我這一點凸顯一下，我上次有提過這個工廠歇業申請書，它是針對土污法規範第九條的工廠，如果不在規範內當然不用提供土壤污染檢測報告，可是如果有，同條第一項第二款就規定要提供，可是我不知道為什麼要提這個第三款，說不用提供，等到查到沒有的時候再來開罰。我不知道為什麼要給工廠開這個後門，不用提供這個報告就同意它先歇業？"],["連署長錦漳：這個我要瞭解一下，因為如果我們已經知道它有土壤污染，照理講地方的環保單位就應該要去進行相關的查處，因為這有相關規定是說在什麼條件下要提供這樣的檢測報告或什麼條件下不要，但是如果已經知道的話，我覺得這要處理。"],["涂委員權吉：好，連署長，我希望你們針對這個工廠歇業申請書去瞭解一下。"],["連署長錦漳：好，我們去瞭解。"],["涂委員權吉：我們看起來不知道為什麼要開這個後門。"],["連署長錦漳：好。"],["涂委員權吉：然後你看這個美商科慕造成地方這麼嚴重的影響，我們不希望外商公司來這邊賺到錢、土地賣一賣就跑掉，我們不希望RCA的事件再度重演，打跨國官司等於是不可能的任務，而且勞民傷財，希望我們經濟部在第一時間內……"],["連署長錦漳：我們瞭解完之後再跟委員報告。"],["涂委員權吉：對，希望第一時間能夠重視這個問題，來把關，不要等到問題造成再來亡羊補牢。"],["連署長錦漳：好，我們瞭解完再跟委員報告。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝涂委員的質詢。","接下來我們請王正旭委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","陳瑩","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃秀芳","張雅琳","洪申翰","蔡易餘","劉建國","陳冠廷","楊曜","蘇清泉"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事\n業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.08159375,"end":0.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.15159375,"end":14.560343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.218468750000003,"end":15.960968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.94784375,"end":19.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.31471875,"end":50.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.70659375,"end":55.634093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.10659375,"end":60.679718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.219718750000006,"end":62.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.75534375,"end":71.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.13784375,"end":76.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.45784375000001,"end":79.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.56284375,"end":81.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.99284375,"end":83.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.74784375,"end":89.31659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.56971875,"end":93.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.88159375000001,"end":92.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.43409375,"end":117.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.21846875,"end":96.25221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.30284375000001,"end":96.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.82096875,"end":102.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.88596875,"end":118.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.76346875,"end":119.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.23159375,"end":125.15909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.09159375,"end":126.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.41221875000001,"end":126.17159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.30659375,"end":174.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.16846875000002,"end":146.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.45534375,"end":146.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.53534375,"end":178.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.41659375,"end":180.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.44159375,"end":182.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.44971875000002,"end":183.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.27221875,"end":187.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.47846875000002,"end":189.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.06034375000002,"end":190.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.00534375,"end":194.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.44784375,"end":195.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.19034375,"end":197.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.48534375,"end":199.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.10096875000002,"end":205.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.39971875,"end":205.92284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.82159375,"end":206.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.41221875000002,"end":231.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.45471875,"end":235.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.84659375,"end":242.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.35221875000002,"end":239.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.37284375000002,"end":242.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.38971875000001,"end":250.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.40659375,"end":242.79471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.86096875,"end":252.31221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.53159375,"end":257.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.88096875,"end":273.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.06846875,"end":306.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.48096875000005,"end":311.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.51659375,"end":341.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.34471875,"end":345.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.58034375,"end":362.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.48909375,"end":363.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.34534375000004,"end":368.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.86784375,"end":370.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.61846875000003,"end":374.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.70659375,"end":377.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.92971875,"end":378.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.95909375,"end":380.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.00096875,"end":384.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.15221875000003,"end":388.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.03346875,"end":390.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.60284375000003,"end":395.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.24346875000003,"end":396.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.11659375000005,"end":401.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.02784375000005,"end":398.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.34409375,"end":400.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.47034375000004,"end":401.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.87534375,"end":404.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.40659375,"end":407.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.56221875,"end":415.61159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.08846875,"end":485.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.17659375000005,"end":419.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.41159375,"end":453.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.55846875000003,"end":488.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.86596875000004,"end":492.00471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.51096875,"end":494.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.19846875,"end":503.68221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.23221875,"end":494.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.72846875000005,"end":505.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.21284375000005,"end":510.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.07346875,"end":514.1784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.10659375,"end":516.1865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.22034375,"end":516.5915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.8615937500001,"end":519.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.13096875,"end":525.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.48471875,"end":529.5515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.6528437500001,"end":556.8215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.8172187499999,"end":568.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.7140937500001,"end":575.5359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.0422187500001,"end":589.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":589.60971875,"end":591.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":591.43221875,"end":595.4653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":595.68471875,"end":600.6965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.00034375,"end":606.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":606.2990937500001,"end":609.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.91034375,"end":643.8459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.61784375,"end":645.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":645.9722187500001,"end":665.1928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.4853437500001,"end":656.8059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.1928437500001,"end":695.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":669.93471875,"end":670.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":672.7022187500002,"end":672.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":672.7865937500001,"end":672.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":695.0447187500001,"end":696.8334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.49596875,"end":701.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":701.9128437500001,"end":703.9040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":703.97159375,"end":705.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":705.7265937500001,"end":707.5322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":708.1228437500001,"end":710.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":710.46846875,"end":710.72159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.179,"end":19.527,"text":"好,謝謝主席。那麻煩請一下我們的薛部長。好,請薛部長。好,圖文好。"},{"start":20.387,"end":38.853,"text":"好,薛部長請問一下這個我們一般事業廢棄物減量也就是我們大家講的減少家用垃圾那過去我們向地方政府有推行隨袋徵收也就是民眾去購買專用的垃圾袋才能把這個垃圾丟進垃圾車採取"},{"start":41.354,"end":47.47,"text":"以量計價減少垃圾製造量的方式那這一部分我不知道環境部有沒有針對這個政策進行過檢討評估"},{"start":51.105,"end":78.731,"text":"跟涂權報告事實上我們有檢討因為台北市率先來實施根據台北市的經驗事實上效果也相當好至少可以減少到兩成到三成所以除了現在台北市新北市也在實施台中市的石鋼區我們的概念基本上是這樣子分階段分區域來實施所以像桃園也有幾個里我想涂權應該也很了解那我們也很高興看到桃園市的八德區"},{"start":80.212,"end":102.393,"text":"規篩區有4個里要來推動所以我們不必再以整個市或者縣因為那個的確太大每個地方因地制宜情況也不一樣那我們就是來鼓勵朝這個方向因為這個終究要走這個方向好 薛部長在這邊跟薛部長報告一下其實他不是只有減少兩成那針對我們去調查這個報告台北市"},{"start":103.053,"end":103.073,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":120.287,"end":136.201,"text":"就是所以這個垃圾垂帶徵收有一定相當的效果而且他這個表示這個源頭減量有達到非常大的效果那尤其像我們現在桃園這10年來人口增加幅度非常大"},{"start":136.901,"end":138.702,"text":"現在已經到230幾萬人我們從2021年看我們這個一般廢棄物的生產量那個時候是127萬噸到去年一口氣增加到133萬噸而且"},{"start":152.626,"end":174.191,"text":"看得出來是成比例一直在增加那目前桃園人也不打算再蓋更多的焚化爐因為民眾對這空氣污染都是非常反對那不願意新建這焚化爐所以源頭減量我覺得這是很重要的不知道我們環境部有沒有針對這個列入重要的政策之一"},{"start":174.791,"end":193.642,"text":"是 這個事實上是我們的重要政策之一當然我們考量就是說比較稍微偏鄉的地方在這一塊的實施上有一些挑戰所以我們就是找比較都會化的區域而且當然那個社區或者那個林裡"},{"start":194.522,"end":205.239,"text":"他有這個自覺他願意來來加入這個行業隨帶徵收那環境部事實上是會給予這個一些這個獎勵的一個措施"},{"start":207.245,"end":230.694,"text":"今天會提出主要是因為我們看到這個報告其實大概就是簡單的一句話帶過去所以好像沒有對這個隨帶徵收相當的重視我們希望這個好的政策我們環境部能夠重視也希望能夠盡快針對這個評估推動能夠做出報告盡快把這個好的政策能夠來把它推動"},{"start":231.51,"end":254.586,"text":"好謝謝涂權的這個取喜那接下來我們再請部長來看一下我們這個針對大潭電廠這個排放黑煙這個問題其實這個是民眾澄清出來你看一下這個照片3月30號3月底下午3點38分民眾拍攝到這個"},{"start":257.915,"end":283.524,"text":"空氣污染這個排放這個黑煙這個照片不知道的還以為是不是發生事故發生火災他這個黑煙非常的濃濃濃的黑煙然後又再到4月15號一樣又民眾又拍到這個排放黑煙非常嚴重那重點是環保局去稽查居然說現場及周邊未見濃煙散布"},{"start":285.385,"end":307.962,"text":"而且最主要他這還有發生非常嚴重的巨響打半個小時可是環保局去稽查居然都說沒有所以民眾真的覺得不可思議你看他們都拍下了這些照片這些證據而且我們等一下聽一下我們這個3公里以外鄭榮譽的聲響我先簡單播放一下給大家聽一下"},{"start":321.784,"end":335.457,"text":"這三公里以外您這麼遠遠就可以錄下這個聲響而且他是看到前面龍煙之後他去旁邊三公里以外才錄到這個鄭榮譽的聲響那針對這一部分"},{"start":341.463,"end":367.572,"text":"我想說部長我之前其實我有跟部長提過我們那個桃園觀音大潭電廠還有環科園區這個空非常非常的嚴重而且你看民眾也捲舉都拍下那麼多照片然後這個這麼大的聲響3公里以外都還錄得這麼清楚那不知道說到底有沒有改善的方法那個我跟涂權報告我們國家環境研究院"},{"start":369.609,"end":396.568,"text":"現在有發展一個技術透過光學的方式科技方式去這個針對那個黑煙可以做這個拍照然後來這個分析那裡面到底有沒有這個一些包括毒化物以及是不是排放的PM2.5等等有沒有超標我們來跟因為正好我們國安院也是在這個桃園嘛"},{"start":397.288,"end":414.244,"text":"對啊你剛剛看那個那麼濃的黑煙你覺得那個空汙他會標準嗎當然不曉得就是說他只是啊比如說一個就如我們機車還是汽車早期的啟動的時候開始會突然是冒一個黑煙瞬時的啊接下來就沒有我不曉得他是持續的還是說"},{"start":415.165,"end":431.77,"text":"所以我希望環境部也跟地方環保局密切好好的來聯繫一下因為大潭電廠那周邊這些居民他們說如果真的沒辦法改善希望我們能夠提出千春的計畫他說他們已經"},{"start":433.59,"end":456.745,"text":"反映到覺得已經投降了而且環保局各單位去都說沒有問題他說你看這反映到他們覺得已經束手無策那我們也知道大潭電廠這7部機組這個排放量就高達933公噸是我們全桃園最大固定的污染源而且他現在馬上8號機組也要投入"},{"start":457.005,"end":485.058,"text":"然後桃園大潭電廠也是這個濾狀污染入口的榜首每年達30萬公噸甚至超過我們桃園的煉油廠那真的是不是我知道我們環境部應該有一些科技執法的部分是不是有這個建制完善的空氣黑核子還是這個監測監控配合這個無人機有沒有辦法把這些問題來做一個徹底的改善"},{"start":485.589,"end":505.439,"text":"好,我們來研究看看如何來協助大潭地區這個大潭電廠它排放黑煙的這個問題好不好好,那這部分希望部長能夠協助來解決好,那謝謝部長那我想請一下我們經濟部產業發展署的連署長好,謝謝督委委員好連署長我請問一下美商科目你應該知道吧"},{"start":515.168,"end":517.472,"text":"你知道這個廠吧?那我們這個外國廠他當初要來設廠的時候應該是經過我們經濟部申請登記對不對?"},{"start":525.54,"end":553.92,"text":"他如果是外商要來投資要經過我們這邊審查對那我今天要凸顯一下那因為他在我們去年7月28號吳玉錦在4天前跟全場的員工說他們過4天就要來關廠也不知道為什麼這麼急匆匆忙忙的要去關廠你看他從2023年8月5號說要開始要解雇這員工可是這一連串這中間"},{"start":555.101,"end":575.011,"text":"從我們你看這個2023年10月12號防火磚砸死兩人然後後來又這個檢測土壤地下水檢測報告又被開罰15萬後來又因為鹽酸管蟹破裂毒死了上萬條的魚那整個大窟溪都被這個"},{"start":576.112,"end":590.563,"text":"被這個鹽酸做嚴重的污染這一連串的問題我想了解說他這個工廠歇業申請書是不是有這個土壤污染檢測報告提供的這個必要才能做這個歇業"},{"start":591.465,"end":607.694,"text":"我跟委員報告這是如果是工廠要歇要先跟地方政府提出申請然後根據圖法因為他這個時期沒有要過戶所以沒有如果是他沒有要移轉的時候他這個圖這一塊是還不用先去做一些一些檢測證明"},{"start":608.655,"end":628.696,"text":"因為他只有做卸業欸好那我這一點凸顯一下我上次有來提過這個工廠卸業申請書他針對這個土法規範第9條的工廠他就是說如果不在規範內當然不用提供這個土壤污染檢測報告可是如果有他第二條要規定就要提供"},{"start":629.136,"end":643.382,"text":"可是我不知道為什麼要提這個第三條提第三條說你不用提供等到我查到你沒有的時候我再來開罰你我不知道為什麼要給工廠開這個後門不用提供這個報告就同意他先歇業"},{"start":645.78,"end":664.882,"text":"這個我要了解一下因為如果說我們已經知道他是已經有土壤污染照理講地方的環保單位就應該要去進行這樣相關的查處啦那因為他這有相關規定是說在什麼條件下要提供檢測報告或什麼條件下不要但是如果已經知道的話我覺得這要處理"},{"start":665.202,"end":668.624,"text":"好聯署長我希望齁你們針對這個工廠歇業申請書去了解一下我們看起來不知道為什麼要開這個後門然後你看這個美商科目造成地方這麼嚴重的影響我們不希望齁這個外商公司來這邊賺到錢土地賣賣就跑掉我們不希望這RCA的事件齁"},{"start":685.393,"end":686.473,"text":"接下來我們請王振旭委員進行質詢"}]}},{"id":"151240","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151240","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627961cdfcfd7573b21b57f63d1b53b7532c5dab72e655c1c94af8d720157a301b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:13:27 - 10:25:32","影片長度":"00:12:05","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月15日及17日二天一次會】）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":12,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-12"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":725,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:25:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:13:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":527,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（10時13分）我們一樣有請薛部長。"],["主席：好，請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。我想請問一下，你接任環境部將近八個月了吧？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：您自認對於我們環境部的業務是不是非常熟悉？"],["薛部長富盛：不敢說細節也都很熟悉，但是大方向跟一些政策面來講……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我想部長站在這邊，您說過的話會負責任嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：當然負責任。"],["邱委員鎮軍：當然負責任？"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我請問一下，上次我在這邊問您的時候，有關民營電廠有納入收取碳費的機制，這個答復明顯跟我們的母法規定不符，請問部長是刻意誤導本席，還是對業務不熟悉？"],["薛部長富盛：不曉得是跟哪一個部分的母法不符合？"],["邱委員鎮軍：看一下。","（播放影片）"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，看到了嘛！我們電力業不收碳費，這個是母法的規定，根據氣候變遷因應法第二十八條第二項規定，是由實際用電者的企業付費，而非電力業，你上次答詢的是錯誤的，對吧？"],["薛部長富盛：假如邱委員認為我的答詢錯誤，那就在這邊道歉，把它修改為正確的地方。因為就執行面來講……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你剛剛說你負責任，所以我講真的，官員在這邊答詢的時候，我希望你們對於你們的業務都能夠更瞭解，不要誤導我們大眾，不要讓所有官員有這種投機的心態，可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：因為我剛才不曉得邱委員提到我講錯的地方是哪個地方……"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，我們回到問題本身。本席認為台電因為配合政策賠錢經營，具有不收碳費的合理性……"],["薛部長富盛：不是，這個跟包括調漲、包括台電提供電費，那個應該是沒有關係。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我現在講的是碳費。"],["薛部長富盛：是，瞭解。"],["邱委員鎮軍：民營電廠都是靠台電賺大錢，不收碳費豈不是鼓勵他們不用努力減少碳排，違反公平原則與減碳的目標？所以本席再次要求環境部與經濟部應該要積極檢討，將民營電廠納入碳費的收取對象。我為什麼要這樣講？雖然是使用者付費，而民營電廠發了電之後是賣給台電，對不對？台電是以市價跟它買，對不對？但是台電再轉給其他用電戶的時候，不一定都是台積電，不一定都是……"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你懂我意思嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：邱委員，我大概瞭解您的意思了，我們來檢討一下……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為我算了一下，每年大概將近有300億，如果這樣算，他們的利潤多了三百億，將近四成。"],["薛部長富盛：好，這個我們來檢討一下，看看是不是有一些漏洞的地方。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。第二個，除了答詢有剛剛的那些錯誤之外，這次的書面報告，你們也主動更正有3處的錯誤，最離譜的，我看到的是第20頁，把111年塑膠容器回收率80%標示成93%，當然這個數字你們也改了，我現在講的這部分，我想請問部長，除了這3個改過的之外，還有其他錯誤嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：目前應該還沒有發現。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我來跟你講，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我發現你們的報告內容還有許多錯誤，就以第15頁家戶垃圾統計來說，竟然出現30處的數據與環境部環境統計查詢網的資料有重大的差距。我們看一下圖，你們標示的，從89年開始是48萬公噸，可是你們網站上登記的是85萬公噸；90年58萬公噸，你們登記58萬公噸，可是網站上查到是105萬公噸。"],["薛部長富盛：105萬公噸應該是回收量的這條線。"],["邱委員鎮軍：不是，你們是有兩套的數據嗎？為什麼公布的跟你們在網站上的不一樣？"],["薛部長富盛：這個我請同仁來check一下，好不好？跟邱委員講的……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，就以你們給我們的PTT，對不對？這是你們的資料嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：對啊，這是我們的數據啊！"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼會這樣呢？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：跟委員報告，我們這是用我們統計的報表……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你們的統計跟公布的是不一樣的？"],["賴署長瑩瑩：因為可能有時候在欄位的計算上面……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我怎麼算都不對啊！你怎麼跳都不對啊！你跟我講欄位？"],["薛部長富盛：我們再來……"],["邱委員鎮軍：錯了，我們就承認啦，好不好？我們不要一直在找理由，也不要用這個來誤導我們大眾，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，這個要應該一致，這邊的資料跟我們網站上的資料要一致，我認同。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我希望環境部這邊要拴緊螺絲，好不好？光這樣的報告都出現這麼多的錯誤，這怎麼跟國人交代？"],["薛部長富盛：OK，瞭解。"],["邱委員鎮軍：第二個問題，針對限塑的政策，購物用塑膠袋限制使用的對象、實施方式及實施的日期公告至14類之場所。請問環境部，未來會不會考量增加公有市場、攤販集中場也要納入實施？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上那個是重點，但是因為那個也跟民眾生活息息相關，所以那塊真的推的速度就很慢。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我這樣講啦，這個東西因為影響也非常大。我希望環境部能夠分短、中、長期來進行。"],["薛部長富盛：是，有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：違反公告的規定，當然也要訂定適當的緩衝期，不要讓我們的業者跟消費者反彈太大，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：特別是傳統市場這一塊。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，對於網際網路零售業包裝減量，有將博客來、燦坤等零售業者納入管制，對吧？"],["薛部長富盛：有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但零售服務平臺業者卻沒有納管，例如蝦皮、淘寶，這些反而是民眾使用最多的網路購物平臺，請問這個什麼時候要納入強制規範？"],["薛部長富盛：我記得這塊應該有跟他們合作啊！有啊！"],["邱委員鎮軍：已經納入了嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：剛剛邱委員講的蝦皮、淘寶、momo，應該都有……"],["邱委員鎮軍：都有納入，是嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：都有。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我再請問部長，現在各縣市政府垃圾的焚化廠，每次遇到歲修或整改期都會面臨處理量不足，排擠到事業廢棄物，請問環境部如何落實可燃性的事業廢棄物分類、分流、清理？又如何增加可燃性事業廢棄物的處理量能？"],["薛部長富盛：可燃性的事業廢棄物，事實上我們一直有用固體再生燃料這一塊在做，但是以往的精神，事實上是後端使用之後的空氣品質管制，這些年來我們發現的確會有一些業者在這裡面混雜一些東西，所以我們現在把它拉到源頭管制，我們在SRF這一塊已經跟歐盟一樣，去做產品的分類，大概分成五級，這些廠商將來要生產SRF的製造，除了書面資料之外，我們還要到現場去勘察，在試車的時候還要再到現場去看，所以由一道手續書面審查變成三道手續，我想未來應該會改善。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這樣就可以增加可燃性事業廢棄物的處理量能？"],["薛部長富盛：會改善，因為它畢竟是一個資源。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，我希望加快啦！好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，針對營建廢棄物的處理，我們應該確保分流的管理。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：請問是否能加強要求工地加裝監視器？"],["薛部長富盛：這個已經在做了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，目前載運廢棄物的車輛都有要求必須全數裝設GPS嘛？"],["薛部長富盛：對，沒錯。"],["邱委員鎮軍：為何載運廢土的車輛卻沒有要求要加裝？"],["薛部長富盛：剛剛講到營建廢棄物、剩餘土石方這一塊，都是內政部主管，他們已經在處理了，我們事實上有一個平臺。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們可以橫向交流，因為它亂倒，還是影響環境，不對嗎？對不對？我說它如果亂倒的話，還是會影響您的業務嘛。"],["薛部長富盛：廢棄物的這部分還是環境部主責。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我是希望你們橫向溝通要做好。"],["薛部長富盛：好，事實上我們有一個平臺。"],["邱委員鎮軍：最後，我再給你們建議，聯合國預計2024年完成全球塑膠公約，環境部雖持續滾動檢討各項源頭的減量措施……"],["薛部長富盛：是，我今天早上有提到的，對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：逐步減少塑膠使用，但應同步調查塑膠原物料是否因此減少，透過調查才可以瞭解我們產品塑膠量的使用多寡，逐步達成淘汰一次性塑膠材料的目的。生物分解的塑膠雖然是目前可行之替代方案，但目前並無獨立回收的管道，若混入一般塑膠，反而會讓資源回收塑膠類這部分大幅地……"],["薛部長富盛：對，會造成困擾，沒錯。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因此，我建議針對生物可分解的塑料，應規劃使用後回收的配套措施，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝邱委員。"],["邱委員鎮軍：最後一個，針對碳費我也提出兩點建議，我們降低碳費開徵對產業的衝擊，政府應明訂碳費優惠費率，設定達分級減量的目標，如應參考耗水費前3年減半徵收，以及參考水污費第1年減少50%、第2年60%徵收、第3年70%徵收、第4年80%徵收、第5年90%徵收，是不是第5年全額來徵收，這是我第一個建議。第二個，依國家階段管制目標或政府目標，設定產業整體減碳目標，並設定逐年階段減量目標，達成每年目標者即能適用優惠費率，減量達一定比例但未達目標者亦設有優惠費率，這是本席的建議，也希望環境部能夠參考，好不好？謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝邱委員的建議，我們事實上已經朝著這個方向在做了。"],["主席：謝謝邱鎮軍委員的質詢。等一下陳瑩委員發言結束之後，休息5分鐘。","現在請涂權吉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":422,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-12","speakers":["王育敏","陳菁徽","陳昭姿","林月琴","廖偉翔","盧縣一","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","陳瑩","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃秀芳","張雅琳","洪申翰","蔡易餘","劉建國","陳冠廷","楊曜","蘇清泉"],"page_start":341,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1132901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1132901_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請環境部部長、經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就「限塑政策執行成效，及家戶與一般事\n業廢棄物減量之檢討與策進作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1132901_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.130343750000002,"end":14.087843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.184718750000002,"end":15.960968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.22221875,"end":19.184093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.58909375,"end":20.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.60159375,"end":20.871593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.344093750000003,"end":23.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.09909375,"end":23.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.48721875,"end":26.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.91284375,"end":27.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.28409375,"end":27.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.00971875,"end":32.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.24096875,"end":34.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.14784375,"end":37.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.62409375,"end":40.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.940343750000004,"end":43.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.868468750000005,"end":41.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.939718750000004,"end":44.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.509093750000005,"end":46.352843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.63971875,"end":47.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.34846875,"end":47.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.48346875,"end":47.534093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.534093750000004,"end":49.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.81221875,"end":50.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.111593750000004,"end":53.440343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.440343750000004,"end":53.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.09846875,"end":57.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.502843750000004,"end":59.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.66284375,"end":62.89034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.29534375,"end":63.869093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.953468750000006,"end":64.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.43846875,"end":69.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.87659375,"end":70.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.44596875,"end":75.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.31034375,"end":75.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.34409375,"end":78.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.08596875,"end":81.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.03096875,"end":85.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.00909375,"end":89.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.33346875000001,"end":95.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.40471875,"end":99.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.02846875,"end":98.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.49659375,"end":98.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.66534375,"end":98.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.26409375,"end":102.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.73221875,"end":103.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.96846875,"end":103.42409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.47471875000001,"end":103.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.82909375000001,"end":103.84596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.91346875,"end":104.74034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.74034375000001,"end":107.20409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.94659375,"end":108.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.92534375000001,"end":109.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.64659375000001,"end":117.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.97471875000001,"end":117.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.51034375,"end":123.43784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.96096875,"end":125.74971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.72846875,"end":127.04909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.62284375,"end":128.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.60159375,"end":130.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.08221875,"end":131.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.97659375,"end":132.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.22534375,"end":133.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.61346875,"end":136.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.87471875,"end":152.85096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.80284375000002,"end":139.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.04721875,"end":139.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.51971875,"end":140.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.08471875,"end":142.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.43909375,"end":142.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.84221875,"end":159.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.58034375,"end":158.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.55471875,"end":165.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.44409375,"end":165.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.40159375000002,"end":171.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.76784375,"end":178.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.09159375000002,"end":180.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.48784375000002,"end":183.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.45784375000002,"end":189.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.24596875,"end":195.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.08909375000002,"end":196.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.89471875,"end":197.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.70471875,"end":200.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.70846875,"end":201.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.34971875000002,"end":202.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.96971875000003,"end":207.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.28534375,"end":209.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.65221875,"end":219.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.22034375,"end":219.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.42284375000003,"end":220.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.79409375,"end":226.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.19034375,"end":224.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.51909375000002,"end":230.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.64909375000002,"end":231.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.89784375000002,"end":231.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.61909375000002,"end":235.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.79159375,"end":236.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.79534375000003,"end":255.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.72346875000002,"end":239.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.92346875,"end":259.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.61909375,"end":261.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.96471875000003,"end":262.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.02346875,"end":267.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.57534375,"end":272.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.62971875,"end":274.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.90784375000004,"end":287.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.44596875,"end":288.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.00659375000004,"end":294.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.30971875,"end":296.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.52909375,"end":295.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.23346875000004,"end":300.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.16534375000003,"end":306.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.87721875,"end":311.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.97784375000003,"end":315.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.47096875,"end":319.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.55471875,"end":321.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.69784375,"end":327.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.36409375,"end":328.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.67159375,"end":330.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.32534375,"end":331.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.36721875,"end":332.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.61159375,"end":337.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.27784375000005,"end":339.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.80471875,"end":343.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.45409375,"end":345.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.33159375,"end":347.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.14909375,"end":352.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.72284375000004,"end":360.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.56596875,"end":360.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.35846875000004,"end":366.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.53096875,"end":364.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.08346875,"end":374.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.78346875,"end":368.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.67284375,"end":375.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.53346875,"end":376.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.54596875000004,"end":379.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.01409375000003,"end":378.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.93784375,"end":384.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.08471875000004,"end":387.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.00409375000004,"end":397.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.20096875,"end":397.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.31909375000004,"end":398.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.73659375000005,"end":399.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.14159375,"end":404.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.23784375,"end":404.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.27159375,"end":421.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.28846875000005,"end":406.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.64221875000004,"end":408.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":408.91221875,"end":408.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.97971875,"end":408.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.84409375,"end":412.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.94534375,"end":413.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.56909375000004,"end":417.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.46721875000003,"end":423.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.13784375,"end":426.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.05284375,"end":437.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.31284375,"end":440.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.77221875000004,"end":443.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.80159375000005,"end":445.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.17221875,"end":446.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.72909375,"end":446.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.81346875,"end":447.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":446.86409375000005,"end":454.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.23034375000003,"end":454.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.16659375,"end":471.36659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":457.34346875000006,"end":457.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.10159375,"end":466.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.05846875000003,"end":476.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.91846875000005,"end":479.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.90534375000004,"end":484.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.18721875000006,"end":486.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.99284375,"end":489.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.87846875,"end":492.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.25784375,"end":493.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.16471875,"end":498.36659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.88971875000004,"end":501.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.37034375,"end":502.45034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":502.61909375000005,"end":505.89284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.28096875000006,"end":509.62221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":509.79096875000005,"end":511.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":511.54596875000004,"end":523.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":523.6115937500001,"end":526.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":527.18909375,"end":530.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.44596875,"end":534.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":530.5134687500001,"end":530.8172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":531.13784375,"end":531.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.95596875,"end":536.7065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.10346875,"end":535.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.06534375,"end":548.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":548.70471875,"end":557.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.51034375,"end":551.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":557.59784375,"end":558.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.4584687500001,"end":563.0990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":563.31846875,"end":566.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":567.03096875,"end":569.6297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.8828437500001,"end":572.3803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.65034375,"end":573.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.8315937500001,"end":577.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.9665937500001,"end":582.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":581.5603437500001,"end":584.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.8047187500001,"end":591.8203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":585.28971875,"end":585.4753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":587.21346875,"end":587.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":587.7534687500001,"end":589.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.9553437500001,"end":594.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.3684687500001,"end":595.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.0053437500001,"end":612.4584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":600.5447187500001,"end":601.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":602.3334687500001,"end":603.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":603.6497187500001,"end":605.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.82971875,"end":631.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.0009687500001,"end":624.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.71284375,"end":640.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":639.3572187500001,"end":641.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.1965937500001,"end":645.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.75284375,"end":648.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":648.72284375,"end":649.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.6172187500001,"end":653.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.75159375,"end":654.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.07221875,"end":657.3459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":657.6328437500001,"end":664.6697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":665.0915937500001,"end":668.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.65221875,"end":675.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":675.45284375,"end":688.1259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.4422187499999,"end":697.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.19596875,"end":704.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":704.8828437500001,"end":706.7222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.2453437500001,"end":716.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":714.63659375,"end":720.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":718.6697187500001,"end":719.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":721.7747187500001,"end":723.96846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.145,"end":37.693,"text":"好 我們一樣有請薛部長好 請薛部長邱文好部長好我想請問一下你接任環境部將近8個月了吧是您自論對於我們環境部的業務是不是非常的熟悉不敢說這個細節也都很熟悉但是大方向"},{"start":40.044,"end":64.298,"text":"那我想部長您站在這邊您說過的話會負責任嗎當然負責任那我請問一下上次我在這邊問您的時候民營電廠有納入收費收取碳費的一個機制這個答覆明顯是跟我們的母法規定不符"},{"start":65.698,"end":78.551,"text":"請問部長是刻意誤導本席還是對業務不熟悉?跟母法不曉得跟哪一個部分的母法不符合我看到我們的報告裡面是寫說我們的店內是"},{"start":80.131,"end":81.752,"text":"臺電的電廠那個要臺電的電廠要嗎?對對對所以臺電的不用?是因為這個"},{"start":111.311,"end":117.197,"text":"我們電力業不收碳費這個是母法的規定根據氣候變遷運營法第28條規定是由實際用電者的企業付費而非電力業你上次答詢的是錯誤的對吧"},{"start":127.694,"end":149.466,"text":"假如邱鎮軍認為我的答詢錯誤那就在這邊道歉就把它修改為正確的地方所以嘛你剛剛說你負責任所以我講真的就是說我們官員在這邊答詢的時候我希望你們把你們的業務都能夠更了解不要誤導我們大眾讓我們有這樣的一個所有官員有這種投機的一個心態可以嗎"},{"start":156.676,"end":183.11,"text":"我們回到問題本身本席認為臺電因為配合政策賠錢經營具有不收碳費的合理性不是,這個跟包括條長包括臺電提供電費那個應該是沒有關係我現在講是碳費民營電廠都是靠臺電賺大錢不收碳費豈不是鼓勵他們不用努力減少碳排"},{"start":184.691,"end":208.809,"text":"違反公平原則與減碳的目標所以本席再次要求我們環境部與經濟部應該要積極檢討將民營電廠納入碳費的收取對象我為什麼要這樣講就是說雖然是使用者付費那我們民營電廠的電他的發電發了之後是賣給台電的對不對台電是以市價跟他買"},{"start":210.951,"end":226.299,"text":"但是台電在轉給其他的用電戶的時候不一定都是台積電你懂我意思嗎?因為我算了一下這個每年大概將近有300億如果這樣的話他們的利潤多了300億將近10成好不好?好"},{"start":238.994,"end":267.448,"text":"第二個我們除了答詢剛剛的那些錯誤之外這是個書面報告你們也主動地更正了有三頁三處的錯誤最離譜的我看到的是第20頁把111年塑膠容器回收率80%標示成93%這個數字當然你們也改了那我現在講的這部分除了我想請問部長除了這三個之外改過的之外還有其他錯誤嗎"},{"start":270.305,"end":288.368,"text":"目前應該還沒有發現那我來跟你講好不好我發現我們的報告內容還有許多錯誤就以第15頁家戶垃圾統計來說竟然出現30處的數據與環境部環境統計查詢網的資料有重大的差距我們看一下圖你們標示像第一個89我們從89年開始4848"},{"start":297.261,"end":318.921,"text":"可是你們登記的,網站上登記的是8590年58到105,你們登記58可是網站上查到的是105105應該是回收量的這條線啦不是,這個你們是有兩套的數據嗎?為什麼公布的跟你們這個網站上的不一樣勒?"},{"start":320.832,"end":346.859,"text":"這個我請同仁來check一下好不好,跟邱文講的對,就以你們給我們的PPT嘛,對不對,這是你們的資料嘛對啊,這是我們的數據啊那為什麼會這樣呢?這是我們用...各位同仁報告,我們這是用我們的統計的報表所以你們的統計跟公布的是不一樣的?因為可能有時候在欄位的那個計算上面怎麼算都不對啊,你怎麼挑都不對啊,你跟我講欄位"},{"start":353.154,"end":375.875,"text":"錯了我們就承認啦好不好我們不要一直在找理由也不要用這個誤導我們大眾好不好應該要一致啦這邊的資料跟我們網站上的資料要一致我認同所以我希望環境部這邊啦就是說我希望你們螺絲鬆緊好不好光這樣的報告都出現這麼多的錯誤這怎麼跟國人交代OK了解"},{"start":376.584,"end":398.122,"text":"那第二個問題就是我們針對這個限塑的政策購物用塑膠袋限制使用的對象實施方式及實施的日期公告這14類之場所請問環境部未來會不會考量增加公有市場攤販集中市場集中場的攤販也要納入事實上那個是重點"},{"start":399.163,"end":406.608,"text":"但是因為那個也牽涉到跟民眾的生活息息相關所以那我希望環境部這邊能夠分短中長期來進行違反公告的規定當然也要訂定適當的一個緩衝期不要讓我們的業者跟消費者的反彈特別是傳統市場的這一塊"},{"start":423.237,"end":441.202,"text":"另外對於網際網路零售業包裝減量有將伯克萊、燦坤等零售業者納入管制對吧?但零售服務平台業者卻沒有納管例如我們的蝦皮、淘寶這些反而是民眾使用最多的網路購物平台請問這個什麼時候要納入常識規範?"},{"start":446.212,"end":455.38,"text":"現在各縣市的政府垃圾的焚化場每次遇到稅修或整改期都會面臨處理量不足,排擠到事業廢棄物請問環境部如何落實可燃性的事業廢棄物分類分流清理"},{"start":472.134,"end":493.347,"text":"又如何增加可燃性事業廢棄物的處理量呢?可燃性的事業廢棄物事實上我們一直有用固體再增燃料這一塊在做但是以往的精神事實上是後端的使用之後的空氣品質的管制"},{"start":494.207,"end":510.66,"text":"那這些年來我們發現的確會有一些業者這裡面混雜一些東西所以我們現在把它拉到源頭管制我們在SRF這一塊已經要跟歐盟一樣去做產品的分類大概分成五級"},{"start":512.082,"end":529.86,"text":"那落實這些廠商他將來要生產SRF製造他除了書面資料之外我們還要到現場去看查然後試車的時候還要再去現場去看所以有一道手續書面審查變成三道手續"},{"start":530.661,"end":547.283,"text":"這樣就可以增加可燃性事業廢棄物的處理量嗎?那我只希望加快啦好不好那另外針對我們營建廢棄物的處理我們應該確保分流的管理嘛那請問是否能加強要求工地加裝監視器"},{"start":548.735,"end":550.957,"text":"這個已經在做了目前載運廢棄物的車輛都有要求必須全數裝設GPS那為何載運廢土的車輛卻沒有要求要加裝"},{"start":564.36,"end":576.045,"text":"給邱鎮軍報告,內政部因為剛剛講到營建廢棄物、剩餘土石方這一塊都是這個內政部這個……你們可以橫向交流嘛,因為他亂到還是影響環境啊,不對嗎?對不對?"},{"start":579.227,"end":579.247,"text":"拜託!"},{"start":596.244,"end":602.673,"text":"聯合國預計2024年完成全球塑膠公約環境部雖持續滾動檢討各項源頭的減量措施逐步減少塑膠使用但應調同步查"},{"start":612.947,"end":612.967,"text":"﹚邱鎮"},{"start":632.201,"end":648.355,"text":"並無獨立回收的管道若混入一般塑膠反而會讓資源回收塑膠類部分這個部分會造成困擾沒錯所以因此我建議針對生物可分解的塑料應規劃使用或回收的一個配套的措施好不好"},{"start":649.836,"end":667.731,"text":"最後一個就是我們針對碳費我也提出兩點建議我們降低這個碳費開徵對產業的衝擊政府應明定碳費優惠的費率設定達分級減量的一個目標如應參考耗水費前前三年"},{"start":669.412,"end":694.356,"text":"檢辦徵收以及參考水務費第一年減少50%第二年60%徵收第三年70%徵收第四年80%徵收第五年90%徵收至第五年全額來徵收這是我第一個建議那第二個依國家階段管制目標或政府目標設定產業整體減碳的一個目標並設定逐年"},{"start":699.907,"end":719.128,"text":"結斷減量目標．達成每年目標者即能適用優惠費率然後減量達一定比例但未達目標者亦設有優惠的一個費率這個是我的建議本期的建議那也希望我們環境部能夠參考好不好好謝謝邱鎮軍的建議我們事實上是已經朝著這個方向在做了好謝謝好謝謝邱鎮軍委員的"}]}},{"id":"151239","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151239","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/cfb4b12132f01627cd998a879b262b74068d0b55d8f96a4ec5dab72e655c1c949acd615108665c815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"10:24:34 - 10:37:31","影片長度":"00:12:57","會議時間":"2024-04-17T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議【含秘密會議】（事由：邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢。）","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-13"},"date":"2024-04-17","duration":777,"end_time":"2024-04-17T10:37:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-17T10:24:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":108,"blocks":[["陳委員永康：（10時24分）有請邱部長。"],["主席：請邱部長。"],["陳委員永康：邵參事、海軍參謀長。"],["主席：還有邵參事、海軍參謀長。"],["邱部長國正：陳委員好。"],["陳委員永康：部長好、在座的各位同仁好。基於過去在軍職服務40年，所以有很多在場的同仁，過去我們是共同參與專案，也一起努力面對挑戰的，所以我今天第一個就要向大家報告，我們是用專業的角度、用專業的術語，如果媒體同仁不瞭解，會後我們可以再來做說明。","今天談到的就是潛艦國造後續造艦的關鍵議題，這個要提請未來承擔責任的各部同仁，如何來面對，產生一個同調性的策略，在專案管理上面做出更好的效益。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員永康：當然，我們在所有的分析事件上，我們都是以目的、方法、手段，再加上風險評估因素，為了支持我們國家安全戰略，達成有效嚇阻的力量，潛艦國造在中間、未來的兵力運用扮演了一個重要的角色，我們的目標是支持潛艦國造；方法上我們要談到效益，為後續的潛艦作參考；然後我們講到手段，第一條潛艦因為是在特別的狀況下，就是所謂「合法非正規」，這個告一段落，我們現在的手段是「依法合規」，也就是說，我們的專案管理要成立造艦計畫專案管理辦公室，不再是潛艦小組。","這個潛艦造艦的專案辦公室，其位階比總部的計畫處還要高，就像當年我跟邵參事，我們都知道的艦管室，我們裡面需要的載台組、戰系組、整體後勤組、綜合，包括訓練，另外還要有法制跟所謂的會計組，它是一個整合的，由它來做統一的協調，而不能由單一一個署處下面的一個組，不然承受不了，因此人力要擴張，這是專案管理。","專案管理的過程中間，我們是基於第一條船，完成驗收、完成所有的準則教範，變成一個標準模式以後，開始討論第二條船的合約框架。在這個過程中，我建議海軍，你要有一個完整的律師團隊，跟台船的律師團隊組成一個完整的，所有的履約督導、月會、季會，律師團隊和會計師要全程參與，這時候才會產生供應商因為其他國際因素造成的衝擊，跟外國的律師團隊要有對口單位，而不是長官來核定，那是政治責任，他無法面對合約框架裡面的但書及不可抗力的因素，這個是專案管理的團隊。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員永康：在風險因素裡面，有關財務、人力以及驗收單位二五六戰隊，以及未來的校準部，在看這個案子的時候要怎麼做？我先講財務，如果是用一個概估框架，不管是2,800億還是多少億，你用特別預算的話，那彈性就是沒有的；如果你用年度預算，可以酌予調增、調減，這個就要在政策上面去律定，現階段只是一個概略舖陳。","對於準總統講的，依我個人的淺見，「一次」我們修正為「一系列」，因為我們在專案過程中間，沒有叫「一次」的，會分block，如3加2加2，有不同的組合，那這個15年的期程也是一個概估，我等一下會向大家做報告。人力的負荷方面，正因為這8條船出來以後，以剛才說比照我們現有的人，60人一艘的話，你的戰力需求，二五六就不只是兩倍擴充，因為還要包括你的校準、包括你的基地、包括你的後勤維保，所有的人力都要增加。這個我想在邱部長任內能夠給予指導，後續我會向新任的部長建議，可能沒有辦法做內調，要酌予增加，這是人力調整的部分。","最後所謂的接受度就是第一條船完成整體的測試驗收，將來的準則教範全部要由現在的人再驗收合格。在過程中間有一項，因為我們這型船是走外面商售的技術轉移，並沒有包括消磁線圈，所以將來我們的校磁、整磁，我講的就是Degaussing、Deperming，這個東西是要把技術資料回饋到後續造艦上做校正的。一個是你的整體噪音值，寬頻的、窄頻的，再加上磁性的，這個是慢慢累積的，做出一個建議。"],["邱部長國正：是，謝謝。"],["陳委員永康：因為這個案子做的是一個系列的造艦，所以你的看法並不是指生產成本，就是說不是攤餘的單價，可能甚至還有全壽期。比方講，第一條船的交船、第二條船的交船，你是不是第一次有兩年、三年要備件，或是中間大修的成本要分開算，因為每一條船的第一次都是回廠去做，這個要有彈性、要寬列。","另外就是所謂的造艦成本、人事成本裡面，我相信參事很瞭解，我們要用工時來計算，因為工程師、專案管理師是監督、設計，但卻不參與labor force，可是因為台船是要營業的，它有它的利潤，所以所有非造船工人的時間都要反映在總工時上。至於你是用一天兩班制、三班制，這個成本是不一樣的，所以會看著你的期程來做調節，這邊我是希望你們能夠掌握一個調節成長的空間彈性。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員永康：另外就是在過程中間的消失性商源跟替代方案，這個在備案方案裡面要選擇。另外一點就是，因為面對後面的合約，我給中科院一個建議，不管是中科院跟台船之間的關係是簽合約，但是在軍種跟中科院的關係，有關的協議書，往往因為軍種的變化，那個協議書中間使中科院失去了調節的彈性。我的建議，以法人的角色看，還是要簽合約，這是我提出的一個建議。至於系列下面的是3加2加2，我們尊重海軍跟台船自己的人力負荷跟期程的安排。","這個就是剛才說的，我們是從媒體看，就是寬估15年建造的期程，這個是一個樂觀指數，僅供參考。我們看第二張，這個就是一個不樂觀的參考值，為什麼呢？你造艦出來，隔4年第一條船回台船做大修，你繼續第二條船、第三條船下水，結果你在第三條船下水的時候，第二條船又回廠大修了，可是已經過4年了，第一條船已經做第二次大修了，所以你看這個重疊區後，這個負荷不在海軍，完全是在台船公司。它的人力負荷、訓練成本，你看這個圖就知道，15年是太樂觀了，20年可能比較有一點彈性，所以不要把話講死，只要是有修船返廠做大修的，跟它交船同時開工有兩條到三條的時候，是它最大的壓力。","這個東西，我想以專案管理的角色，我們請海軍參謀長跟邵參事把我們的看法跟建議，因為今天並沒有台船的代表，我們要提供……","我們希望在合約的框架裡面，要保留你的彈性，因為你的人力負荷就那麼多，如果同時兩條船的大修回到台船，你的設施、你的乾塢、你的墩，修船、造船有些不是相同的人力，所以這個部分還請注意到。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員永康：海軍規劃的7艘是用特別預算，或者中間有部分是用年度預算，還有包括返廠大修的預算，有部分是同質，有部分是要額外加，希望將來能夠敘述清楚。"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["陳委員永康：最主要就是，船廠跟海軍所要面對的挑戰跟風險是人力的負荷可能不夠，接艦官兵不夠，現在二五六官兵出來很多人都去投入、參與、督導、監造，甚至是參與一些文件的協作。","從另外一個角度看，就是二五六戰隊本身承平時的戰備訓練有沒有衝擊？有衝擊。海昌廠的人目前是以製造期程來算，這是樂觀指數，可是將來若碰到，海軍說這個船全部要回到台船去大修，你的設施如何配合。同樣，因為15年的期程是相當緊湊的，當年我們光華案，造成功級的船，我們概估的預算是1,200億，平均150億，實際上很多是硬體設施的投資，但是實際上造這個船的時候是達到了1,347億，後來又因為我跟邵參事，我們都參與過的先進戰鬥系統在美國做研發，又追加了11億，所以這些案子裡面有很多成長的需求是你現階段看不到的，所以人力的需求，包括戰隊變成艦隊、基地變成左營加蘇澳、你的案前設施、造船廠、乾塢，現在威海案的左營港口擴建跟這個案子有沒有同步、有沒有變落後等等，這都值得大家要注意。另外，新兵力的加入，準則教範修編，人力來源是重點，戰隊現有的人力是沒有辦法承擔的。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員永康：最後給部長的建議就是，這是一個長期系列的建造，我們站在基於國家安全以及能夠對抗外來壓力的角色，我個人是全力支持建造，而且這個案子事實上是我在海軍服務的時候跟同仁一起建立起來的，所以最後的建議就是說，時間彈性要加大。"],["邱部長國正：瞭解。"],["陳委員永康：另外，人力的需求要寬估，預算用所謂的特別預算跟年度預算中間有重疊處，要在修船的建造期程跟返廠大修期程，這個要做一個詳細的報告，這是我個人向部長提出的建議。"],["邱部長國正：跟委員報告，今天真的很感激委員，等於給我們不但是上這一課，而且是很具體的，我想也是海軍不管學長或者同袍、袍澤之間多年經驗的累積，就像剛剛委員一開頭點到的，這個名稱定位如果讓人家造成誤會的話，我們後面也要應接不暇的解決這個問題。所以剛剛委員所建議的或給我們指導的，從它的定位名稱到以後逐年編列預算或者做一個專案預算，還有就是怎麼樣管控，事實上的確有可能新的做了一半舊的就要進來了，這都是我們當初在考慮當中可能還滿欠缺的，所以這個地方特別感激委員給我們指導，我也會請專案小組人員就專案管理的概念要把它列進去，而且都要數字化，這樣的話就很具體，可以按照我們的目標擺在那邊，待節點出來，一步一腳印的可以踩到目標，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員永康：謝謝部長，謝謝各位。"],["主席：謝謝。稍後於王定宇委員質詢完畢後休息5分鐘。","接下來請羅美玲委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-13","speakers":["馬文君","林楚茵","黃仁","陳永康","羅美玲","王定宇","沈伯洋","洪申翰","徐巧芯","陳冠廷","賴士葆","李柏毅","洪孟楷","羅智強","林憶君","王鴻薇","邱志偉"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-17"],"gazette_id":"1133001","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133001_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國防部部長邱國正報告「潛艦國造建案沿革及目前進度」，並備質詢（含秘密會議）","agenda_id":"1133001_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.5372187500000001,"end":6.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.7009687499999995,"end":7.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.290343750000002,"end":17.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.25596875,"end":19.555343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.01096875,"end":24.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.465968750000002,"end":26.575343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.36846875,"end":32.025968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.07659375,"end":33.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.21971875,"end":35.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.822843750000004,"end":39.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.564718750000004,"end":45.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.104093750000004,"end":46.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.112218750000004,"end":58.469093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.009093750000005,"end":59.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.56159375,"end":61.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.658468750000004,"end":72.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.42471875000001,"end":74.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.56784375000001,"end":77.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.11159375000001,"end":80.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.03096875,"end":85.28346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.45221875,"end":86.78534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.02159375000001,"end":94.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.61534375000001,"end":97.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.70346875,"end":105.51659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.76971875000001,"end":106.84971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.37284375,"end":108.08159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.57096875,"end":121.98659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.57721875000001,"end":123.50534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.09596875000001,"end":125.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.81721875000001,"end":150.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.42034375000001,"end":127.52159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.55534375,"end":127.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.91034375,"end":166.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.82346875000002,"end":170.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.40096875,"end":176.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.93159375000002,"end":178.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.39971875,"end":204.40409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.54971875,"end":190.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.60221875000002,"end":217.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.68471875,"end":219.92909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.11471875,"end":221.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.37596875000003,"end":239.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.89221875,"end":243.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.78596875000002,"end":245.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.35096875000002,"end":254.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.19784375,"end":295.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.74409375000005,"end":300.11909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.82784375,"end":302.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.16096875,"end":309.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.82221875000005,"end":310.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.07096875,"end":319.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.71096875,"end":320.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.20846875,"end":324.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.99284375,"end":332.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.79784375,"end":331.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.00846875,"end":341.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.05346875000004,"end":351.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.16159375,"end":355.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.92471875,"end":360.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.53159375,"end":362.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.26534375,"end":364.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.52659375,"end":369.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.77909375,"end":372.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.96846875,"end":401.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.87534375,"end":403.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.49096875000004,"end":407.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.44409375000004,"end":409.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.44784375,"end":411.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.67971875,"end":413.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.26159375000003,"end":417.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.43409375000005,"end":426.61409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.04846875000004,"end":438.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.57846875,"end":442.22346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.56096875000003,"end":443.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.75909375000003,"end":444.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.21034375000005,"end":446.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.23534375,"end":448.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.26034375,"end":450.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.08284375000005,"end":454.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.99784375,"end":457.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.83284375000005,"end":459.87471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.85346875000005,"end":463.28346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.16096875000005,"end":478.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.28534375000004,"end":480.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.10346875000005,"end":482.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.89221875000004,"end":483.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.39409375,"end":485.57534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.70596875,"end":489.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.72659375,"end":494.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.97471875,"end":503.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.42471875,"end":521.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.1315937500001,"end":518.4309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.43471875,"end":523.3247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.13471875,"end":525.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.63659375,"end":527.9484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.99471875,"end":537.9553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.44471875,"end":538.7990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.72721875,"end":540.2334687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.0559687500001,"end":549.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.4978437500001,"end":557.8172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.12096875,"end":563.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.60534375,"end":565.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.3603437500001,"end":575.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.7553437500001,"end":582.8090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.27721875,"end":592.0734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.17471875,"end":592.2084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.27596875,"end":594.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.53284375,"end":596.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.76034375,"end":601.7934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.43034375,"end":604.3415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.7590937500001,"end":608.5434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.89346875,"end":622.1784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.7522187500001,"end":632.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.4890937499999,"end":637.5515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.96909375,"end":639.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.8972187500001,"end":640.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.4834687499999,"end":663.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.2478437500001,"end":673.6472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":672.5165937500001,"end":672.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.13659375,"end":696.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":697.0359687499999,"end":701.0690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":701.28846875,"end":703.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":704.1909687500001,"end":710.7553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":707.04284375,"end":707.2959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":708.35909375,"end":708.3928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":710.7553437500001,"end":773.2097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":773.4797187500001,"end":774.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":775.2178437500002,"end":775.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":776.12909375,"end":777.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":777.1922187499999,"end":777.52971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.769,"end":3.17,"text":"邱國正報告邱國正報告邱國正報告邱國正報告"},{"start":27.363,"end":27.543,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":52.108,"end":52.148,"text":"：陳永康"},{"start":81.115,"end":81.435,"text":"：陳永康：陳永康"},{"start":108.686,"end":108.886,"text":"：陳永康"},{"start":124.156,"end":149.921,"text":"整體後勤組綜合包括訓練另外還要有法制跟這個所謂的會計組他是一個整合的他來做統一的協調而不能由單一一個署處下面的一個組承受不了因此人力要擴張那這是專案管理那專案管理的過程中間我們是基於第一條船完成驗收完成所有的準則教範"},{"start":151.041,"end":157.483,"text":"在這個過程中我建議海軍你要有一個完整的律師團隊跟台船的律師團隊要組成一個完整的所有的在旅約督導、約會、記會律師團隊、會計師要全程參與那麼這個時候才會產生供應商因為其他國際因素造成的衝擊"},{"start":176.949,"end":176.989,"text":"：陳永康"},{"start":205.626,"end":205.846,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":222.398,"end":222.538,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":247.944,"end":253.87,"text":"這因為這個八條船的出來以後啊以剛才說比照我們現有的人啊60人一艘的話"},{"start":255.27,"end":279.778,"text":"你的戰力需求256不只是兩倍擴充因為包括校準包括你的基地包括你的後勤維保所有的人力都要增加這個我想在邱部長任內能夠給予指導後續我會向新任的部長做建議可能沒有辦法做那條要著於增加人力調整那麼最後所謂的接受度就是這個船第一條船完成整體的測試驗收"},{"start":282.619,"end":282.659,"text":"：陳永康"},{"start":300.865,"end":323.682,"text":"我講的就是這個東西是要把這個技術資料回饋到後續造建上做校正那麼一個是你的整體噪音值寬頻的窄頻的再加上磁性的這個是慢慢累積的那做出一個建議因為這個案子做的是"},{"start":325.026,"end":352.159,"text":"﹗﹗"},{"start":352.259,"end":380.784,"text":"那麼另外就是所謂的造建成本人事成本裡面這個我相信參事很了解我們要用工時來計算因為工程師專案管理師他是監督設計但他不參與labor force可是他的因為台船是要營業的他有他的利潤所以所有非造船工人的時間都要反映在總工時上那至於你是用"},{"start":381.624,"end":382.185,"text":"陳永康委員"},{"start":404.537,"end":426.246,"text":"面對後面的合約我給中科院一個建議不管是中科院跟台船之間的關係是簽合約但是在軍種跟中科院的關係有關的協議書往往因為軍種的變化那個協議書中間使中科院失去了調節的彈性我的建議以這個法人的角色看還是要簽合約這我提出一個建議"},{"start":428.1,"end":445.016,"text":"那至於系列下面的是3加2加2那我們尊重海軍跟台船他自己的人力複合跟騎乘的安排那這個就是剛才我們是從媒體看就是寬估15年那麼建造的騎乘這個是一個樂觀指數僅供參考"},{"start":449.315,"end":463.095,"text":"我們看第二章啊這個就是一個不樂觀的一個參考值為什麼呢你造建出來了隔四年你第一條船回台船做大修你繼續第二條船第三條船下水"},{"start":464.229,"end":464.389,"text":"﹚陳永康"},{"start":487.695,"end":503.262,"text":"15年太樂觀了20年可能比較有一點彈性所以不要把話講死只要是有修船返廠做大修跟他交船同時開工有兩條到三條的時候是他最大的壓力"},{"start":504.985,"end":527.242,"text":"這個東西我想以專案管理的角色我們請海軍參謀長跟邵參事把我們的看法跟建議因為今天並沒有台船的代表我們要提供我們希望在合約的框架裡面你要保留你的彈性因為你的人力複合就那麼多如果同時兩條船的大修回到財團"},{"start":529.242,"end":537.748,"text":"你的設施、你的乾屋、你的墩、修船造船,有些是相同的人力,所以這個部分要請注意到。"},{"start":542.11,"end":564.744,"text":"海軍規劃的7艘至於是用這個特別預算或者中間有部分是年度預算還有包括返廠大修的預算有部分是同質有部分是要額外加希望將來能夠敘述清楚那麼最主要就是船廠跟海軍我們面對的挑戰跟風險主要就是人力的負荷可能不夠"},{"start":565.724,"end":594.523,"text":"接見官兵不夠現在兩五六官兵出來很多人都去投入參與督導監找監照甚至參與一些文件的寫作從另外一個角度看就他兩五六戰隊本身成平時的戰備訓練有沒有衝擊有衝擊那麼海艙廠的人目前是自製造其成來算這是樂觀指數可是將來你碰到如果海軍說這個船全部要回到台船去大修"},{"start":595.575,"end":601.58,"text":"當年我們光華岸造成功級的船我們概估的預算是1200億平均150億實際上很多是硬體設施的投資但是實際上造這個船的時候到了1347億"},{"start":622.83,"end":637.448,"text":"那中間呢後來又因為我跟這個少參是我們都參與過的先進戰鬥系統在美國做研發又追加了11億所以這案子裡面有很多成長的需求是你現階段看不到的"},{"start":639.045,"end":663.173,"text":"所以人力的需求包括戰隊變成艦隊基地變成左營加蘇澳你的案前設施你的造船廠乾屋那現在的威海岸的左營港口的擴建跟這個案子裡面有沒有是同步有沒有變成因為落後這都值得大家要注意的另外新兵力的加入準則教範修編人力來源是重點"},{"start":664.258,"end":664.298,"text":"：陳永康"},{"start":688.012,"end":707.21,"text":"所以最後的建議就是說時間彈性要加大另外人力的需求要寬估那麼預算用這個所謂的特別預算跟年度預算中間有重疊處要在修船的建造期程跟大修返廠期程這個要做一個詳細的報告"},{"start":708.752,"end":729.233,"text":"這是我個人向部長提出的建議我跟委員報告今天真的很感激委員等於給我們不但上這一課而且是很具體的最後講解的是海軍不管學長或者同袍、袍子之間它多年一個經驗的累積就剛剛委員一開始點到這個名稱定位如果說讓人家造成誤會的話"},{"start":730.174,"end":748.53,"text":"我們就後面也要應接不暇解決這個問題所以剛剛委員所建議的給我們指導的從他定位名稱到以後逐年編列預算或者做一個專案的預算還有就是怎麼管控事實上的確做了一半舊的他就要進來了"},{"start":749.651,"end":773.861,"text":"這都我們當初在考慮當中可能還蠻欠缺的所以特別感謝委員給我們指導我也會請專案小組人員專案管理的概念把它列進去而且都要數字化這樣的話就很具體可以按照我們目標擺臉再節點出來一步一步一腳印的可以踩到目標謝謝委員謝謝謝謝部長謝謝各位"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}