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這個提案我們待會處理那我先做這個回應其實立法院的議事規則如果要修改就可以提案來修改像我們這次就有修改會議規則的提案那如果委員對會議規則運行有什麼疑問可以參考過去本院的慣例那至於本席在上週輪值召委主持的時候本席是要維持各黨團的版本都能進入到實質討論那如果在場的委員不願意參與討論那我只好休息"},{"start":2323.848,"end":2323.868,"text":"案。"},{"start":2342.196,"end":2344.037,"text":"案﹚立法院組織法部分條文修正草案﹚立法院組織法部分條文修正草案﹚"},{"start":2366.971,"end":2367.071,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":2383.596,"end":2407.876,"text":"五點半之前就不想開會不想討論的委員我們就請他自行離開讓想討論的委員能夠繼續討論那這個呢就剛剛你的會議詢問做個回應那剛剛的這個提案呢我們會適當時間來處理現在請提案人委員高金素梅進行提案說明再講一下這個事情啊當天的情況並不是如此是主席你宣布會議休息之後"},{"start":2409.062,"end":2409.202,"text":"議員主席賴瑞隆"},{"start":2430.546,"end":2457.968,"text":"那麼我們的議事規則裡面是有說主席是有這個權利可以參酌可以這個宣布會議時間但是你必須要具體化這個休息的時間到底是從什麼時候開始什麼時候結束不是讓你主席在這裡自以濫權你要想什麼時候休息就什麼時候休息你想什麼時候回來就什麼時候回來這個是不符合法律的規定好謝謝翁委員那我們吳委員要詢問"},{"start":2460.151,"end":2469.838,"text":"謝謝主席我想我剛剛在提案說明的時候也已經非常清楚的開宗明義喔司法法制委員會用什麼樣子的審議態度用什麼樣子的審議方式來進行國會改革議案的處理是不是能夠進入實質的討論而且逐條正向的提出建設性意見來討論社會都在看"},{"start":2486.01,"end":2487.572,"text":"我們現在在這裡講的每一句話我們發表的每一個立場都是在行使我們對於國會改革理念的實踐那依據議事規則我剛剛做提案說明的時候有清楚的說民主進步黨的議事規則的版本有提出來"},{"start":2503.727,"end":2507.869,"text":"我們針對在議事規則進行秩序的維護相關的事項我們行使我們的職權用提案修法的方式來為之所以如果在野黨的委員對於議事規則有任何想要修正的部分也可以提出修法的意見那回到今天能不能夠順利的討論我個人也非常期待不要再發生上週有委員試圖阻撓討論"},{"start":2531.818,"end":2533.259,"text":"案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":2548.45,"end":2550.692,"text":"案﹚立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":2573.706,"end":2590.95,"text":"這樣的條文如果還是有委員試圖要不斷的拋出散會影響討論的動議或提案我覺得這國人又會大大的失望一次所以我是支持那主席可以基於議事規則來進行相關權限的行使謝謝好那我們接下來請提案人委員高金素梅進行提案說明請請說"},{"start":2602.901,"end":2627.29,"text":"我剛剛非常認同吳思瑤講不要動輒拿散會出來我覺得吳思瑤這樣子做也對民進黨不好意思啦就民進黨上個禮拜一提了40次散會動議散會動議的前提是要讓小委能夠審查能夠審查此散會非筆散會他又開始陷入模一模四嗎我現在在講話我現在在講話沒關係啦沒關係我現在在講話你要詢問什麼事"},{"start":2632.692,"end":2647.022,"text":"我要詢問今天為什麼民進黨40次山會動議、杯葛議事我們還可以去譴責我們的吳宗憲的擔任主席我想請問當天神隱的神盾局局長鍾佳彬你現在終於出現了"},{"start":2648.163,"end":2669.31,"text":"那奇怪,為什麼你們的主持議事要合乎議事規則?我跟各位講,我先講一件事情沒有關係,民進黨議事規則有很多的漏洞版啊沒有,我跟你講沒關係,那我的主張要程序發言啊可不可以來,可以嗎?主席好,謝謝我們程序發言開始受理登記"},{"start":2678.621,"end":2679.962,"text":"好來我們請登記發言第一位羅委員志強發言時間三分鐘"},{"start":2709.451,"end":2735.811,"text":"我們尊敬的主席也是神盾局局長鍾嘉斌主席今天我看到民進黨委員就議事規則有很多的一些意見深受感動也深受感召阿直接就罵不要隨便拿散會動議出來嘛對不對散會動議出來不對的阿對阿不對阿民進黨40次散會動議就很正確"},{"start":2737.489,"end":2757.709,"text":"國民黨提一次三會動議就不正確這就是民進黨對議事規則最大的解讀就像說國民黨我們吳宗憲這個召委擔任主席民進黨不管會議質詢、程序發言、大體討論搞了四個小時我們就讓你在上面講繼續講暢言四個小時"},{"start":2760.427,"end":2770.093,"text":"最後呢民進黨那一整天6個小時提40次三會動議也通通我們就開始進行表決啊就民進黨還可以譴責吳宗憲欸還提譴責兩次欸"},{"start":2774.81,"end":2789.348,"text":"那我講了一件事情民進黨以前在當執政當多數的時候從來也沒給過國民黨這種待遇啊少數黨這種待遇啊什麼討論六小時開會五分鐘直接宣布表決就碾壓過去"},{"start":2790.973,"end":2808.313,"text":"所以今天在這邊我非常贊同我們剛剛翁小林委員講的啦你講這麼矮去鑽議事規則的漏洞我們就把漏洞補起來嘛全國民眾在乎的是什麼在乎的是今天我們主席不要當薪水小偷三個小時神隱不見蛋"},{"start":2809.724,"end":2828.496,"text":"我那天真的印象深刻啊,三位都一低到桌上的時候我們的神盾局局長是直接跳起來啦!直接跳起來啦!快變鋼鐵人飛出去啦!立刻逃之夭夭,欸我這個對啊,我立法院新來的,我真的沒有看過這麼好笑的事情啦!這跳起來就飛了對不對!鋼鐵人啦!用飛的嗎?還是閃電俠?所以我要跟各位講,像這種濫用意識規則的狀況,這種洞就要補起來!"},{"start":2836.567,"end":2850.949,"text":"我非常贊成窩小英委員剛提的,休息應該律定時間。超過休息律定的時間,就自動散會了啦。因為主席你都不尊重自己,你憑什麼要官員底下坐三個小時陪你耗啊?"},{"start":2852.099,"end":2877.391,"text":"所以你既然要強調議事規則鑽漏洞沒關係我們把漏洞補起來我這個省任局局長你好好去看看網路上對你三個小時消失神隱的薪水小偷的行為大家的評價是什麼那另外三會動議民進黨這麼在乎三會動議我跟各位講那你不要禮拜一提四十次你提四十次沒關係國民黨就四十次的quota我們就四十次來告訴你三會動議怎麼做"},{"start":2878.251,"end":2885.956,"text":"而且我跟各位講至少羅智強我提三位都有一次開會最多提一次不會下面一次提四十次所以要講意識規則我們就用意識規則意識規則有漏洞就把它補起來以上謝謝羅委員的這個還是一個會議詢問的性質那主委在這邊說明一下"},{"start":2900.219,"end":2928.108,"text":"在議事規則當中散會動議是讓會議他無法再進行討論那通常我們會提停止討論動議那麼停止討論動議之後就要進行處理但是有時候為了不讓停止討論動議處理要有最優先的方式來處理不讓會議進行下去就會提散會動議這位主席為什麼要說散會動議優先處理那當一旦提出散會動議的人"},{"start":2929.488,"end":2951.868,"text":"他的目的就是讓會場的狀況讓他結束掉那麼上週一的會場狀態是民進黨主張要進行逐條討論要進行逐條討論但是事上主席的主持是不給討論那如果一個會議不能討論當然就沒有繼續進行的必要這是當時民進黨提三會動議的目的"},{"start":2952.998,"end":2982.31,"text":"那麼至於在上週四的情況提散會動議是因為國民黨認為大體討論不想進行所以要提散會動議讓會議不能進行討論其實在議事規則散會動議有時候是防止不討論有時候是拒絕討論那這當然有大家自有社會公平那我想接下來的程序發言我們請那個翁曉琳委員進行程序發言時間三分鐘"},{"start":2988.632,"end":3004.634,"text":"我想針對上個禮拜我們召開委員會議然後中間從兩點半開始主席宣布會議休息之後一直空轉三個小時直到五點半然後再通過會議動議"},{"start":3006.892,"end":3033.578,"text":"那麼這是我第一次看到立法院竟然在委員會上面開會可以透過這樣的意識手段然後來杯葛其他委員所提出來的動議我不知道這是不是一個正常的狀態但至少我認為這不是一個正常的狀態即便是立法院意識規則裡面由給主席有這樣的權利可以鑿定休息時間但是主席不能夠自議濫權"},{"start":3036.434,"end":3042.195,"text":"案（三）委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案．一）民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案．一、審查��"},{"start":3062.52,"end":3063.321,"text":"議員高金素梅等23人擬具"},{"start":3079.397,"end":3106.078,"text":"他提了立法院各委員會組織法第四條、第九條、二十二條的條文修正草案的這個對照表在第四條裡面他有說召集委員因故無法主持會議時應指定該委員會一人代理會議主席未指定時由該委員會互退一人為臨時主席這是賴委員他所提出的立法院各委員會組織法第四條修正案"},{"start":3106.658,"end":3124.206,"text":"在這個條文說明裏面他有說依照現行的委員會議事慣例如果召集委員應固無法主持會議會議前則由指定同委員會委員代理會議主席如果於會議中可臨時指定暫待主持會議以避免會議中斷"},{"start":3125.106,"end":3150.211,"text":"那麼為立法院各委員會會議曾發生過召集委員因故或無故未主持會議,亦不指定代理主席,導致議事中斷,浪費寶貴的委員會議時間,降低議事效率,引發民眾不滿。所以爭定在召委未指定代理主席時,得由委員會委員互推臨時主席,必使會議如期順利進行。"},{"start":3151.889,"end":3166.447,"text":"我沒有想到賴委員還真的是料事如神竟然可以預測到我們的中嘉賓召委在上星期就直接宣布會議休息然後就審影"},{"start":3168.318,"end":3188.904,"text":"這麼重要的案子不知道為什麼中嘉賓委員昭偉沒有把他排入到我們這次的這個立法院的相關的這個組織法的病案審查那麼這個部分就可以顯現其實民進黨根本沒有想要進行國會內部改革我非常支持"},{"start":3192.466,"end":3193.927,"text":"案。我希望在沒有修正委員會組織法的條文之前,其實透過現在的解釋就可以約束主席的會議的主持權利。這是很重要,不要讓民眾認為說我們立法"},{"start":3215.427,"end":3243.476,"text":"案,有立法委員是薪水小偷,他不僅是薪水小偷,還讓我們其他人都受到牽連、拖累。那麼這是一個非常不好的示範。以上。好,接下來請問一下,因為有委員做第二次的程序發言登記,請問還有沒有其他委員要登記程序發言?請登記。請登記。請登記。那還有沒有其他委員?那如果沒有的話,我們的程序發言登記到此為止。接下來有請審法委員。"},{"start":3256.422,"end":3269.342,"text":"主席本會委員我想這個在會議在今天本來會議一開始剛剛已經這個提案說明都進行到一半了那這個又針對上個禮拜會議的程序大家都來進行程序發言了"},{"start":3270.356,"end":3293.134,"text":"我想這整個爭執大概幾點最主要就是我看兩位新科委員他們對於主席宣布休息之後的時間好像非常的驚訝而且非常的不滿事實上我想在場所有的媒體記者先生女士以及幾位資深委員大家都知道"},{"start":3295.256,"end":3312.952,"text":"在立法院原本就是這樣子對多數黨來講多數黨掌握的武器就是人數因此他們透過表決的方式來貫徹多數黨的意志那對少數黨來講呢就是因為表決結果少數黨是輸的所以少數黨唯一的武器就是運用意識規則"},{"start":3314.468,"end":3315.269,"text":"案﹚立法院組織法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3340.715,"end":3361.402,"text":"所以像即使第二個剛剛提到這個三會動議,三會動議它就是意識規則裡面所定的那因為這個國民黨他們多數黨因此我們提四十四的三會動議一樣會否決這個我們就是乖乖我們就按照意識規則一直提來拖延這個時間這個是沒有錯這就是我們少數黨的意識武器啊"},{"start":3362.242,"end":3374.693,"text":"那這個有什麼好氣,氣成這樣子來這裡,來這邊已經亂了第三天了還在這邊開會,每次開會就來講了,好像一副天理不容的樣子這沒有什麼,這就是議事技巧啊,這就是按照議事規則的方式來進行啊"},{"start":3377.264,"end":3397.397,"text":"那至於這個主席宣布休息這個也很正常我們平常如果在審查到時候審查預算會休息更多次審查預算大家這個有意見這個要刪除那個認為不要刪除這個認為刪除太少那個認為刪除太多當僵持不下的時候如果每次都用表決那就會回到以前到最後就是少數黨只有一個唯一的武器剩下打架而已啊"},{"start":3398.453,"end":3417.234,"text":"所以就是用議事規則來進行大家就主席就說現在爭執不下在還沒有表決之前大家宣布休息協商那天狀況大概也是這樣子啊主席宣布休息就是希望大家協商只是協商沒有完成協商沒有進行協商沒有結論因此就主席他當然可以希望拖到"},{"start":3418.634,"end":3439.13,"text":"這個協商達成結論。這個我覺得這就是很合理。至於剛才提到的另外一個好像兩位委員也非常在意的就是我們那天民進黨團所提的譴責吳宗憲主席的這件事情。這個我再說一遍。過去立法院所有的不管是多數黨大家即使圍在主席台前面推擠即使怎麼樣但是該進行的程序通通要進行。"},{"start":3440.27,"end":3457.006,"text":"有提案提案停止討論就一定要正式的提案停止討論才可以停止討論就停止討論的提案先表決表決完之後再表決這個案子這個程序都應該要走那天之所以譴責吳宗憲就是因為吳宗憲主席我想這個到時候吳宗憲不在場"},{"start":3458.035,"end":3483.158,"text":"你們也可以問他,他可能自己在你們黨團指揮下他自己也覺得很心虛這是因為那天大家不同的意見他完全自己裁決把條文保留了一個條文在委員會到底要做什麼樣的處理通通要經過委員會的決議到底這個條文要通過、要否決、要保留都要委員會大家來公決、合一公決而不是主席來裁決"},{"start":3484.139,"end":3499.091,"text":"所以這是那一天最大的問題所以譴責吳宗憲的關鍵就是這個事情其他的都沒有他要怎麼樣主持要怎麼這都是主席的權利這個我們也都作為少數黨摸著鼻子認了所以少數我再說一次少數黨唯一的武器"},{"start":3500.012,"end":3501.393,"text":"案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3528.499,"end":3555.986,"text":"主席各位同仁有一句話叫做糾結狠糾結狠糾結你不吃雞肉粽這個是在這裏在這裏撒辣在這裏撒辣在這裏喉嚨上癮上禮拜一到底發生什麼事情禮拜四發生什麼事情全國大百姓都看大家都在現場只有你們這倒果為因嘛你們不讓開會嘛"},{"start":3560.607,"end":3587.962,"text":"應該講說我們版本差一天進來還有劉志強還有翁小英還有很多人版本必然審查啊這在立法院非常其中平常啊大家都彼此尊重啊各位你不是說委員會中間主義嗎?為什麼你都不敢講話?連聽說你都不敢講?有廣場委員坐在那裡負責為事舉手而已這個很清楚啦好等一下你叫我後面不要客氣我們今天有機會對到我們就來好好講嘛"},{"start":3590.171,"end":3614.657,"text":"如果要講得清晰來就講得清晰嘛。議席中間是多少人開的嘛。所有班門都拼在一起。一直在討論。還有一個羅智祥委員我們給你什麼我們給你什麼。另外一隻騎士卸法保障權益。回羅智祥委員收給了。這不是恩賜啊。所以那搞什麼,就是拜你們要長期的連壓嘛。然後其他班門不併嘛。"},{"start":3616.294,"end":3630.58,"text":"那就不能討論不能發言嘛。主條通常不可以啊。然後這樣表決一直過去。當然唯一的武器就商業動力。突顯的荒謬。我告訴各位。然後禮拜四我們組織的時候是怎麼樣?"},{"start":3632.165,"end":3632.325,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":3652.342,"end":3668.13,"text":"見天日嘛!你不能讓那些人被討厭嘛!一路掩蓋、蓋牌、蓋牌到底嘛!所以大家又不講話、裝在那裡!讓極少部隊!就是如此而已啊!剛剛梁國雄委員講說,他還第一次,你才剛到那裡,你還會看到很多第一次的!"},{"start":3669.858,"end":3672.84,"text":"各位要瞭解。二、二十號是不是韓國組織第一次委員會?會經過協商?"},{"start":3687.438,"end":3710.839,"text":"議員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案案件、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件、立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正草案案件、"},{"start":3714.837,"end":3735.489,"text":"憤怯委員在後台啊。本來是10點45,然後講到11點提定要處理,讓院長要退,讓院長要上台。這我們歷經時間,這立法院很多協商的。過去劉昌恩院長的時候,有一位協商,一個禮拜停止開會,你們常常再來。我們院長一直如此,誰都是如此。"},{"start":3736.704,"end":3760.06,"text":"所以學長本來就是一個意識手段哪有要用一定時間,你們十分鐘講得出來嗎?連韓國瑜都不敢,第一次就如此各位我們不要對這裡瞎扯,你要抓人家心嘴小偷,這樣我們會立法院我們就是委員中心主義,民進黨過去不管在野執政,我們都用意識手段"},{"start":3761.622,"end":3766.407,"text":"我曾經一條法案講一天的那過去依然就是論證啦"},{"start":3781.738,"end":3807.733,"text":"主要衝突 衝突 都說違規 違規 才沒有辦法出去我們那邊宰的是我們的民主程序 展示我們要好好審查的誠意給大家看可是呢 這要記國務司長 國務就不可以講 你們的版本 根本是檢驗的嘛那你覺得你們的版本很好 你應該上來辯護啊 一條條的辯護啊為什麼如此 大家心裡很清楚 這個 我也都說暴力可以如此"},{"start":3809.366,"end":3835.421,"text":"他們還講臨時匪憲亂政這名義反覆不起來的這是全程撕破的這個倒也很清楚 你們不要這樣哭的嘛像今天我看這個副總召好像趕著要去大陸了他又開始在底下連署待會我會看到他們提出三個東西出來現在連委員會都跟你們說什麼時候立法院以前到現在什麼時候委員會能不能開能不能討論事由"},{"start":3838.443,"end":3866.174,"text":"舉手來表決只有國民黨來提醒那今天我們就建議大家去看喔額後四年只要國民黨民眾黨合起來只要這個委員會來自己專案報告都不可以這個法案不可以討論你就要來上會這是何其嚴重啊連委員會都可以沒說、法院都可以沒說、什麼都可以沒說這樣就你們不要以為齁加起來過半可以翻轉天下了"},{"start":3868.087,"end":3883.757,"text":"你得到必然罰,很苦啦。我再告訴各位,今天這個法案再平常也不夠。你們沒有提版本,哪一個委員會都是一樣的。沒有版本,沒有行政版本,那就審嘛。"},{"start":3884.717,"end":3898.631,"text":"有的是等行政版本來,這個不可能有行政版本,所以是立法院帶來共同的討論。這是立法院核心價值嘛,大家都要維持在憲政體制以下來做這個事情。立法院沒有潛力,你一直擴張,坦白講這還是違憲的。"},{"start":3901.755,"end":3922.64,"text":"所以今天我要再度強調,不是你們國會刀暴力就決定哪一個法案可以審、哪一個委會可以開,立法院從來沒有如此。大家注意看喔,這一刻正在發生,分析委員你三個東西可以拿出來了,秀一下吧。我看你現在很認真,我真的很認真看你們在幹什麼。"},{"start":3924.581,"end":3938.114,"text":"韓中委員請你去背負你的版本,不要什麼義務的國民黨,然後又不講話,走來搖來搖去,沒有用的啊。好,謝謝我們柯委員。接下來請吳委員、施堯、陳學凡,時間3分鐘。"},{"start":3943.683,"end":3961.256,"text":"謝謝主席今天是一週的開始希望大家都能夠微笑以對我們正能量的好好來開會真的不希望也不樂見我們國會改革在這一週的新開始又要破功又要被沒收了"},{"start":3962.177,"end":3979.226,"text":"司司有兩種要效大不同,開會也有兩種,想討論跟不想討論的兩種開會。立委也有兩種,一種是要沒收自己的審查權,或是要照期間好好開會。"},{"start":3981.247,"end":3995.757,"text":"所以要效大不同、效用大不同。立法院要扮演什麼樣子的角色在國人社會面前。我們要再一次說今天的法案沒有爭議性。"},{"start":3997.378,"end":4010.907,"text":"我真的非常的訝異其實今天我一早來上班來到國會我的心情是非常的雀躍的因為我想說今天司法法制委員會應當可以好好針對高度有社會共識的議案沒有政治爭議的議案好好來審查可是很遺憾一早恐怕我不曉得還要再在這裡要進行這樣子無謂的拖延審查到什麼時候"},{"start":4026.538,"end":4041.594,"text":"舊版本論版本我是民主進步黨國會改革小組的召集人我剛剛也非常負責任的針對今天民進黨提出來的立法院組織法、立法委員行為法以及議事規則做了提案說明我們來看看內容"},{"start":4044.036,"end":4062.554,"text":"我們希望立法院要有資通安全處要設資安長這是立法院自己修的法2018年立法院修了資通安全管理法第11條立法院要求臺灣所有的公務機關都要有資通安全長來負責推動監督機關內的資通安全相關事務"},{"start":4068.459,"end":4075.905,"text":"我們立法要求別人,我們怎麼可以不檢討自己有沒有落實呢?設定資通安全長來防範所有的資訊作戰,國民黨反對嗎?民眾黨反對嗎?"},{"start":4083.53,"end":4096.036,"text":"我們立了《性平三法》的修法就在去年我們要讓所有的MeToo都要止步我們是立法委員我們要求各級機關要做到MeToo防止性騷的行為我們要求各級學校都要落實性平工作平等跟教育的內涵為什麼在立法院我們刮別人鬍子不刮自己呢?"},{"start":4109.042,"end":4129.413,"text":"所以我們終於有機會可以利用國會改革法案討論的時候來研修立法委員行為法。我想問國民黨民眾黨的委員你們要反對MeToo的法案嗎?你們要反對國會反性騷、反歧視、讓性別平等的法案嗎?我希望不是。"},{"start":4130.615,"end":4149.606,"text":"又如同我們提出了議事規則的修正就是要強化回應社會的抨擊立法院不能夠再發生由委員利用國家機密審查的秘密會議去吸出秘密的訊息或是對外不當的洩露國家安全"},{"start":4150.686,"end":4158.491,"text":"事由．一）民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案．一）民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案．一）民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案．一）民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案．一）民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正草案．一）民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正草案．一）民進黨"},{"start":4174.54,"end":4196.586,"text":"所以今天的法案都是正面的,都是強化國會改革,沒有政治爭議的。立法院是大家的,立法院不是藍的、不是綠的、不是白的。這樣非常正面回復社會期待的法案為什麼不能審呢?"},{"start":4198.977,"end":4201.479,"text":"國民黨民眾黨為什麼不審查呢?我希望副總召您週末要帶團可能週四就出發去中國了黃國昌總召也說害怕民進黨發動偷襲所以很好啊我們就趁副總召也在場黃總召也在場柯總召也在場我們一起不要偷襲我們就好好的審查國會改革法案啊"},{"start":4225.897,"end":4238.036,"text":"這個禮拜只有134,三天一程。禮拜四副總召可能就帶團出去了。林思明書記長可能也要去。我們不想要讓重要的委員不在場討論啊,把握機會。"},{"start":4240.64,"end":4243.742,"text":"案,論法案,國會要改革,立委要開會。再一次重申,請副總召可以收回你們的散會動議啦,這樣真的不好啦,不然社會看到說,米兔的法案,資訊安全法案,或是國家機密安全的這個法案,你們要反對,你們要提散會動議,不讓人信,這社會對國民黨及民眾黨的觀感,會真的不好啦。"},{"start":4269.801,"end":4273.068,"text":"好不好我們微笑與對開開心心來開會謝謝大家好接下來我們有請羅志祥委員進行第二次發言時間三分鐘"},{"start":4287.264,"end":4300.39,"text":"我在這邊齁要這個對我們的中嘉賓我們的局長齁特別跟你報告一件事情你民進黨英雄內戰啦你們民進黨復仇者聯盟內訌了你知道嗎你會發現齁剛剛我們這個溫委員講到其實今天本來你應該還可以排一個案子也沒進來啊就是賴瑞隆齁民進黨現在已經有人撥亂反正啊直接預言"},{"start":4317.622,"end":4317.642,"text":"案。"},{"start":4332.779,"end":4348.452,"text":"告知眾家兵委主席應故無法主持會議,應指定該委員會一人代理主席,未指定時由該委員會互推一人為臨時主席。"},{"start":4350.09,"end":4365.157,"text":"我們賴瑞隆委員就這樣子用法案來提前還不是及時洗臉還不是事後洗臉是提前就打臉了我們的宗嘉賓主席所以我跟各位說民進黨很愛講議事規則但是民進黨在多數的時候就不跟你講議事規則"},{"start":4372.02,"end":4400.274,"text":"民進黨很愛跟你講要充分討論大家多數的時候不管是什麼疫苗的調閱委員會還是今天審查國務及要費的那個會計法的修正案要嘛就是強行表決五分鐘把你會議給你結束掉要嘛甚至也不跟你調閱所以民進黨的所謂的議事規則只有一句話啦民進黨說了算的議事規則啦那今天我們針對所謂散會不散會我這邊直接講"},{"start":4401.621,"end":4406.835,"text":"今天我的主張就是今天民進黨要弄議事規則那大家就來弄議事規則"},{"start":4408.24,"end":4432.001,"text":"你要搞40次三會動議,國民黨也沒在怕的啦。你可以搞40次三會動議,我們也可以依照一次規則來搞三會動議啊。沒有關係,主席你可以繼續省引。你一樣,如果看到三會動議嚇到跳起來當鋼鐵人跑掉,對不對?我請賴瑞隆過來,當主席。賴瑞隆說他要當主席,雖然他不是司法法制委員會,我們通融一下好不好。"},{"start":4433.499,"end":4455.015,"text":"就算賴瑞隆不能,沒關係沒關係,我們會場有一個很適合的人選,審法會委員,為什麼你是連署人?賴瑞隆說,主席落跑的時候,不可以揮一言蕩啊!我們怎麼容許副總統聯盟裡面出一個神盾局局長呢?對不對?我們就請我們的審法會委員,如果你真的再跳起來跑掉的話,"},{"start":4455.896,"end":4466.153,"text":"按照賴瑞隆精神上去當代理主席所以不要跟我講你們民進黨可以四十次散會然後就把國民黨的一次散會搞得好像非常嚴重"},{"start":4467.435,"end":4483.122,"text":"你民進黨先在那邊亂搞意識二搞意識規則在前那我們國民黨基本上我們要主張我們的程序權利啊所以不要把今天過去民進黨齁很多東西你今天五分鐘結束會議叫做民主那國民黨討論六個小時你還去譴責吳宗憲主席"},{"start":4486.623,"end":4503.853,"text":"這一點我不能接受啦所以如果說今天按照議事規則你要來去做很多議事規則裡面的一些漏洞來去找文章的話第一個按照賴瑞隆把議事規則不是最後主席為什麼賴瑞隆的東西你沒把它放進來今天的討論啊"},{"start":4505.972,"end":4526.166,"text":"那我要特別講阿賴瑞隆的提案很好阿對不對我們也不用等議事規則通過修正阿今天如果說主席在審影的話我們今天就來執行這件事情我提名審發會委員幫代理主席已經遭受檢驗剛剛羅委員的發言當中到底能不能有議事規則阿"},{"start":4533.915,"end":4545.534,"text":"賴瑞隆委員他擬具的是立法院各委員會組織法我們今天討論的是立法委員行為法"},{"start":4546.65,"end":4564.988,"text":"那我們上週有討論立法院職權行使法那麼委員可以就不同的條文不同的法案不同的名稱可以進行討論那本週呢我們本次會是立法院組織法立法委員行為法以及議事規則以上說明"},{"start":4566.59,"end":4579.774,"text":"那如果說受訪委員會的委員有對任何待審的法案有希望排審的我們兩位召委都隨時願意、樂意來設法來安排那接下來我們請黃委員郭昌進行發言時間三分鐘"},{"start":4596.676,"end":4621.546,"text":"對於我們在進行程序發言的內容,我大概觀察了,從開議以來觀察了好幾次,發現我們的程序發言已經成為,我也不曉得該怎麼講,恣意的自由搏擊的空間了。到底算不算是程序發言,我是充滿了困惑。"},{"start":4622.992,"end":4646.129,"text":"沒有關係,我們尊重每一個委員發言的空間,當然不包括不是他發言的時間,自己坐在下面隨便按麥克風的人。這種嚴重違反,不要說議事規則,基本上面發言的秩序跟理解的,在我們的立法委員行為法裡面,早就有明確規範。"},{"start":4648.579,"end":4654.323,"text":"現在的問題是,這些明確的規範根本沒有人要遵守,也沒有人要執行"},{"start":4655.612,"end":4681.698,"text":"要不然大家把立法委員行為法現在拿出來看就知道人家在講話的時候沒有輪到他講話字義在下面按麥克風愛講什麼就講什麼進行人生的攻擊跟謾罵這樣子的規則現在定在那裡沒有人要遵守這才是現在最大的問題現在就有的規範根本沒有在遵守"},{"start":4682.731,"end":4711.566,"text":"不倫你發言也是站在下面按著麥克風愛說什麼就說什麼在這樣的場景下還在這邊恣意地講立法委員行為法要如何如何我坐在下面一聽我一直覺得非常荒謬第二件事情我們依照目前排審的剛我非常高興聽到主席說跟國會改革相關的法案"},{"start":4712.666,"end":4738.255,"text":"要排審的話國民黨也好、民進黨也好兩位召委都很樂意排那我現在就公開講我公開的拜託中國國民黨的召委吳宗憲我也公開的拜託民主進步黨的召委鍾嘉斌台灣民眾黨黨團我們針對立法院卸任院長、副院長禮遇辦法到目前為止從來沒有被排過"},{"start":4739.411,"end":4742.032,"text":"事由．立法院組織法部分條文宣告。"},{"start":4753.598,"end":4775.437,"text":"那最後我本來看到今天的議程是要邀請司法院秘書長來針對有關於司法體系工作量過高的部分來進行專題報告我看了非常高興因為這段時間身為法律人我的心很痛看到我們的法官看到我們的書記官"},{"start":4777.045,"end":4789.195,"text":"因為過勞因為工作負擔過重一個又一個走了一個又一個走了我本來對於今天要排這樣的議程我是高度期待但尊重召委啊"},{"start":4789.946,"end":4816.608,"text":"章偉要把禮拜一跟禮拜三排成兩天一次會要審這一些什麼立法院組織法等等的我也都尊重但我看到這個禮拜四還沒有排議成所以我懇請啊懇請慎重的考慮說法制委員會禮拜四還沒有排議成針對我們的法官過勞竟然選擇用這樣的方式來結束自己的生命"},{"start":4817.506,"end":4834.138,"text":"我們的書記官也過勞竟然已經過勞死了已經造成了整個司法體系的震動所有的法院發起了白花的運動這件事情絕對值得我們立法院司法法制委員會正視謝謝"},{"start":4838.158,"end":4854.169,"text":"謝謝我們黃總召這邊說明一下這個應該也是會議詢問的性質啦那說明一下有關於我們基層司法人員的負荷問題啊我們已經今天上午呢召委這邊已經發出星期三排個專案報告"},{"start":4855.458,"end":4881.365,"text":"那至於說新期次的部分,那剛剛呢聽到各位委員希望國會改革的相關法案盡量排進來,那我們也會盡可能的在待會的時間馬上來處理。謝謝我們黃昭偉的說明。好,那麼來,會議群委請。我們今天一直講一個道理就是"},{"start":4882.641,"end":4909.053,"text":"為什麼你們要沒收這個委員會?你們為什麼不敢在那個原版本來討論?我多麼期待洪光昌出來打球。結果剛才打了歪球嘛。那講說程序壞,大家都程序壞了嘛。然後你說有時候台下的案在插嘴。其實我是經常克制你講話不要插嘴,所以上台的時候,我一直在聽的。"},{"start":4910.492,"end":4937.46,"text":"第二個民進黨的這四國會改革版本總共國會合法修了四個法。唯獨各委員會組織法沒有修。我們現在是審民進黨黨本、黨版。各位要把大量委員的版本拿出來審我沒有意見。至於法官的過勞問題這個是一個非常嚴肅的問題本來就應該排。我今天就我看了半天黃國昌根本沒有真正的問題要回答嘛。"},{"start":4938.621,"end":4955.741,"text":"你應該變證說國民黨這個行為到底對不對嘛。國民黨人要審嗎?要審不用審啥。那後面審的時候有時候三位兩次都是核心價值就是不讓人審嘛。不想出來面對問題討論嘛。各位你們好好的面對你們的問題來討論嘛。大家來變證嘛。"},{"start":4958.424,"end":4981.454,"text":"總統委員也非常無奈啊。他被副總統委員逼著啊,說你去跟總統說啦,沒辦法。我不相信你們大家都一臉無奈嘛。副總統在那裡,要嚇你。所以各位委員,要扮演自己啊。這歷史來看待這一刻的。不要以為這樣沒用就可以過關的。"},{"start":4983.103,"end":5003.122,"text":"到底不是只有一面而已為什麼主席在衝突的時候沒有意見的時候意見不一的時候在三分之一的時候主席會離開這個這種在議會三十年來彼此皆死阿就要講民進黨講阿有好文學"},{"start":5004.733,"end":5029.688,"text":"那沒有辦法解決就沒辦法解決每一個天天都要上癮了每一個會議都會上癮了這不是民進黨族創的這黨都要使用這五七個這為什麼?我們希望立法院能夠在委員會好好討論是委員會中心主義就是委員會中心主義這過去法國黨黨上口的東西你今天就用不開胃你們大家要進口這國會是不是變成這樣了?"},{"start":5031.448,"end":5054.025,"text":"那以後我跟他看你這一刻,你敢傷害我沒有關係以後這個文明和民進黨養和起來,結合這個委員會題目他們不要,又傷害掉有這樣的,你國會嗎?你們不值得羞恥嗎?你暗示要睡嗎?你偷偷想一想這個邏輯對不對?"},{"start":5056.181,"end":5081.651,"text":"會如此嗎?你用所有的手段嘛,搶他搶他過去嘛。到稍微稍微稍微的時候你們又講說,又不曾保留再表決。到最後的時候你停止壞。我告訴你啦,你越要干預這個事情,別人越會注意。整個國家社會氛圍在你們這兩個月內,把國家走向完全改變。天地頂倒。"},{"start":5083.346,"end":5097.914,"text":"難免會喊不來。我禮拜六就講了一句話是無恥之餘辦法的國會難保第二次三一八運動不會再崛起。本席今天真的是又在大開眼界"},{"start":5113.988,"end":5133.836,"text":"我想柯總召有點時空的錯亂因為新的綠色恐怖民進黨威權可以肆意妄為持續的來碾壓在野黨沒有想到天網恢恢終於有一天雖然民進黨執政國會終於沒有辦法再霸權統治"},{"start":5140.592,"end":5167.388,"text":"我們看在柯總召的帶領之下過去八年完全擬壓在野黨什麼申訴的管道完全都沒有連把人民啊生命的安全啊都能夠肆意的去炒作啊該買的疫苗不買然後去炒作高端讓全民打安慰劑再謀取不法暴力然後呢"},{"start":5168.73,"end":5190.276,"text":"當在野黨提出要成立調閱委員會在110年3月18號要成立調閱委員會還是在野黨趁著執政黨人數不在的時候突襲成功在委員會成立啊通過成立調閱委員會馬上"},{"start":5193.12,"end":5221.689,"text":"三月十八日成立,三月二十二日,民進黨立刻在未完委員會人數優勢刪除這個當時的調閱小組的提案。再過來,再過來,在野黨要求朝野協商,在朝野協商依然沒有什麼回應。一直到了一個多月以後,到110年四月二十七日,"},{"start":5224.344,"end":5244.181,"text":"終於全民沸騰全民沸騰以後民進黨才開始重視到民意的反撲才同意一週內成立調閱委員會終於在117年4月29號衛韓委員會的community調閱委員會疫苗採購調閱委員會才終於成立然後5月5號"},{"start":5251.755,"end":5276.637,"text":"由民進黨策動由陳委員擔任召集委員然後從此就沒有開過一次會這個就是民進黨他們所有的民主、次元民主全民的生命都被他踐踏在腳下還有臉在這裡講民主還要318我覺得柯總召啊你真的瘋了"},{"start":5279.042,"end":5292.788,"text":"你真的瘋了!I'm watching you!你真的瘋了!真的!這個人吼!帶領了民進黨!因為可以威權繼續的下去!好!在野黨講的話不愛聽!"},{"start":5295.154,"end":5315.413,"text":"叫搞群眾運動叫來霸佔立法院這種王權思想啊腐敗的封建思想到今天還在立法院今天所有在野黨都是按照議事規則民進黨做的就是議事規則在野黨做的就不是議事規則就在那威脅恐嚇"},{"start":5316.732,"end":5329.437,"text":"案（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案．立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案．立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案．立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案．立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案．"},{"start":5346.431,"end":5365.036,"text":"真的讓我們覺得非常的難看到今天為止你要想佔領立法院門都沒有啦在這裡啊新民意就會對你們反撲謝謝齁 那個在接下來委員曾群發言之前齁請榮主席啊這邊齁我先宣讀一下我們行為法的一些規範好不好這個嫌疑問題"},{"start":5375.799,"end":5399.398,"text":"皇宗悔戚,瓦夫列民啊。胡文綺這樣講了半天喔。我跟你講,你說你曾經在電台上,在公眾場所說我有躁鬱症。那時候我回答,回答記者怎麼講。北宋的時候有一個非常有名大師侯韻。他說你心中想什麼,就是,就講他的話就是如此。你心中充滿著煩。"},{"start":5402.079,"end":5429.09,"text":"好民主嘛 惡權霸道嘛你以為 台北市發言啊 大家講清楚喔你說剛才所講的 潔黑事實根本是你心中 完全不有一邏輯的東西一直在想的東西 你講得出來你這個北區就任何人身攻擊我是跟你講說齁 應該適可而止啦齁 我真的請告訴你齁"},{"start":5431.377,"end":5458.473,"text":"我現在講清楚所謂疫苗採購不能掉月當初不能掉月的時候是一期多少錢嘛後來我找黃泰總召說黃泰啊這個有跟國會議長做簽約保命條款我們現在一把公報公布出來會影響以後我們所有疫苗採購啊然後黃泰總召這樣我叫他給你看那你辛苦就好了你敢看嗎"},{"start":5460.7,"end":5488.257,"text":"你們才講的話所以這個裡面有什麼弊案全部給你看那是這個國際採購我們那時候在搶疫苗欸那年5月3號郭台銘跟郭台銘真的搞了一個月買VNT疫苗那經過多少坎坷的事情整個疫苗那時候要疫苗的時候你們在賣在講說像乞丐疫苗等等那國民們健康做政治鬥爭這一段難道不清楚嗎"},{"start":5489.485,"end":5516.223,"text":"到最後,上個會期,前幾天,因為真的廠商同意,後來才又重新再又重新再開專案報告。所以過去,我們要講清楚,不是你們說的這樣。你們只要想無所不用其極來破壞執政。你們現在再也想執政,把國家全部顛倒。"},{"start":5517.662,"end":5532.296,"text":"你還可以上來講如此的話我一直想說你們上來就要論對問題來直球對決黃國昌又跑了我都不期待剛才黃國昌講話的時候是針對法案來講要給我扁下去法案過了之後我們一排還有什麼好說的當然我很清楚這個事情嘛"},{"start":5539.117,"end":5559.083,"text":"從來沒有針對這本案,沒有用私資核心教育來談。不然是你敢談你的法案嗎?我會給他法案,叫他出來打球嘛。要跟我們拚下去,跟我們國際殺,要跟我們民進黨那一套。怎麼說,有時候貪腐,貪腐你就去檢舉啊。你現在活在這種民粹底下,你們要從神起卵。"},{"start":5565.086,"end":5582.644,"text":"我不是鼓勵說這個318,我是從這個引誼出來。因為禮拜六參加318十周年的座談會,很多人都很感慨。我說此時此刻的台灣,它在十年前的318反基民根本不合法,那時候是反紅帽。"},{"start":5585.924,"end":5585.944,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":5605.099,"end":5615.785,"text":"最後我希望大家發言的時候,因為條件沒有刺激委員會。我們這一次審查是民進黨黨版。民進黨黨版沒有所謂各有問題組織法。"},{"start":5623.031,"end":5625.032,"text":"本席在這裡希望我們委員注意到立法院"},{"start":5638.917,"end":5662.544,"text":"立法委員行為法第七條（立法委員因秉持禮興奮症共同維護議場及會議秩序不得有下列行為。首先非常感謝不管是吳釗偉還是本席主持會議來本委員會目前並沒有第八款攜帶危險物品也並沒有第六款占據主席台或阻撓議事之進行也並沒有破壞公務或暴力之肢體動作"},{"start":5663.624,"end":5685.009,"text":"那都非常謝謝我們委員在本次本屆我們建立這樣的良好規範那目前也沒有對依法行使職權議事人員做出不當的要求或干擾所以我們議事人員在這裡呢都能夠順利的依照他們的職權來依法來行使但是呢有些情況那麼還是希望大家盡量配合第四款"},{"start":5686.009,"end":5711.187,"text":"為得主席同意擦顏干擾他人發言而不聽制止那主席這邊在處理是盡量的只要大家在一個寬容的範圍內大家互相尊重那麼還有發言超過時間不聽主席制止那我也跟大家報告不管時間是兩分鐘、三分鐘、四分鐘、八分鐘或八加二那主席盡量的會用明示或暗示的方式讓委員知道時間到"},{"start":5712.788,"end":5735.911,"text":"另外我們也提醒大家第二款入罵或涉及人身攻擊之延遲在這裡不管是對於主席本席本人或是對於其他的發言委員或其他的在場委員我們希望大家盡量避免有入罵或涉及人身攻擊之延遲以上這十款大概就是我們立法委員行為法第七條所規範"},{"start":5736.812,"end":5759.282,"text":"那謝謝各位委員這段時間對於相關的款項都能夠落實遵守那相關的款項也希望大家盡量的能夠互相的體諒那在這裡因為剛剛有會議詢問那所以我在這裡針對我們會議主持的散會的動議的情況跟大家做一些我們議事規則的說明那立法院我們議事規則這裡面"},{"start":5761.679,"end":5783.22,"text":"說到第26條議事日程所列之議案亦必或散會時間已屆主席及宣告散會那最常見的我們上午的時間是到12點下午的時間是到5點半所以如果上午時間到12點還在進行討論還沒進行完畢那主席會先做個宣告正的同意我們延長超過12點"},{"start":5785.242,"end":5803.07,"text":"那至於下午的五點半那如果沒有經過處理五點半時間一到就自動散會又或者說在五點半之前討論的議案討論完畢那就會自然散會因此在這種情況之下不管是五點半到了還是討論的事情一閉了就自然散會沒有必要提散會動議"},{"start":5804.411,"end":5812.074,"text":"議員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案件及法制委員會第11屆第15次全體委員會第15條條文修正草案 案件及法制委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會"},{"start":5821.971,"end":5849.699,"text":"案,只要提出來通過之後該日所排定的議程就通通不能討論了。所以三會動議的威力在我們我們議學當中、議事規則當中它是一顆原子彈。它的目的就是在三會時間屆滿之前將現場的議案轟炸完畢。通通不能再進行討論一片廢墟。該日的議程就不能討論了。所以呢我們會三會動議的提出各黨都特別的謹慎。"},{"start":5850.979,"end":5878.448,"text":"那至於什麼是空包蛋如果散會動議提出表決失敗的話那他只是延長議案交付表決的時間因為散會動議不需要討論所以不管誰散會動議通過還拼命的提不斷的提那只是延宕主席處理議案完畢的時間那至於上週有"},{"start":5879.148,"end":5896.296,"text":"黨團對於當日的輪值主席在進行處理議案的時候不斷的提出不會成功的散會動議那只是讓主席處理當日的議程一直延宕到四點才能夠完成全案我要強調的未經表決"},{"start":5897.517,"end":5900.738,"text":"案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":5922.586,"end":5942.335,"text":"案件一、民進黨團提出要延長開會時間超過五點半至當日晚上十二時為止,那就是要繼續討論。一個是國民黨團所提出要求散會。事實上當日的時間五點半時間屆滿,如果未經延長就自動散會。所以呢上週四"},{"start":5943.055,"end":5964.057,"text":"在本席回來處理散會動議的那個當下其實已經散會時間已屆只要民進黨團的研會動議沒有通過就自然散會其實也不知道在多做什麼那由於散會動議具有空爆彈的性質只是延宕主席處理現在討論議案的程序不具有"},{"start":5965.384,"end":5966.224,"text":"．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":5996.923,"end":6000.184,"text":"我們剛剛提的案子也不去審理。"},{"start":6064.748,"end":6085.7,"text":"來 新主席我休息協商齁 休息就休息 總長不要西海羅盤啦 接下來協商啦 不用西海羅盤啦主席你坐好好不好 你坐好 我提案子啦 很顯然跟老公讓這個會開 對不對"},{"start":6088.567,"end":6116.767,"text":"那以後又要收委會,國民黨和民眾黨加起來人數夠的話,會冒出收委會。各位想一想喔。那過國會期為什麼提三個中議的時候主席會離開?最好像1997年修憲的時候,對於行政黨局不信任案,當然要解散國會,總統解散國會之前。這是千萬不要死。那竟然今天國民黨執意要散會的話,"},{"start":6118.427,"end":6128.777,"text":"我是覺得要讓這個歷史的紀錄留下來,我們就面對好了好不好,不用再休息了,要面對了好協商結束,現在繼續開會那個是不是有黨團"},{"start":6142.571,"end":6170.287,"text":"因為待會要處理會議的程序問題所以我們給一點時間讓各黨團希望能夠參與表決處理程序的人都到場那在這個時間之前我大概說明一下目前在場有兩個一個是臨時提案叫做討論方式的動議是由提案人翁曉琳委員等包括胡錦旗委員、黃國昌委員包括黃國昌委員三位提出"},{"start":6171.207,"end":6185.857,"text":"有建於委員會主席能透過宣布會議休息,但卻不宣布休息截止時間,來刻意規避議事進行,為避免委員會召委肆意濫權,延宕本委員會議事運作。"},{"start":6189.139,"end":6216.13,"text":"案,影響列出席政府官員辦公時間。提案要求主席宣布會議休息時應明定休息起泣時間。如主席超過休息結束時間20分鐘,未到場退戶開會,本會議自動散會。這個要去問2月20號開會那天韓國瑜怎麼指定會?休息以後?自動散會齁?這個目的就是?這個更不可行嘛!"},{"start":6218.981,"end":6227.547,"text":"這個請去修改議事規則啦,不要用委員會決議啦。可能大家不清楚,這個臨時提案。以後就在野黨什麼武器、少數黨什麼武器都會用。我現在還沒有梳理齁,我要說明一下。這個動議的目的,就是要讓會議散會。"},{"start":6241.471,"end":6259.648,"text":"還不經表決就散會那麼這樣的一個動議呢如果有人數優勢當然也可能處理但因為他是以臨時提案的方式依照我們的慣例要等到今天的提案說明、詢答、討論到一段落的時候我們會進行"},{"start":6260.649,"end":6270.902,"text":"主席,主席齁,我要特別講,帶風向我不能接受啦,我要特別講一下,我還是要講,我還是要講啊,我還是要講,剛剛在那邊講那麼多,你總級你今天掛在上面就沒有什麼問題啦!"},{"start":6276.663,"end":6300.464,"text":"來,我們要有個三位動議。這個三位動議是由護軍級委員提出,包括羅志強、翁曉琳、謝榮介跟林思明。三位動議,針對本日會議四月二十二議程,建請依立法院議事規則第26條、57條的規定,提議三位示威勇當進行公決。這是由國民黨六人所提出來的三位動議。那麼依照規定,"},{"start":6301.865,"end":6329.267,"text":"我剛剛也宣布過了人數過半具有人數優勢或過半的黨團提出尚未動議就是原子彈把現場的所有議案一次轟平今天這個多了今天的議案就通通不用討論了包括黃國昌委員所關心的不過沒關係那個星期三我會排我們司法人員的負擔問題我會排那我們也希望說是不是事後今天這個政政以後只要在場的提案"},{"start":6330.56,"end":6353.333,"text":"今天的三個議案包括立法委員行為法包括立法院組織法包括立法院的議事規則到底是哪個法案哪個內容哪個條文讓國民黨這六位委員認為這些提案今天不需要討論決定要用上會動議讓主席一"},{"start":6357.3,"end":6377.268,"text":"會議一致規則將他一致轟平。那我們現在開始進行處理。現在進行表決,三位動議現在進行表決,採用舉手表決。表決前先清點在場出席委員人數。那在場出席委員,不算我嘛,不算主席12人,現在開始表決,暫時請舉手。"},{"start":6388.473,"end":6394.095,"text":"反對者五人,請放下。棄權一人。我再說明一次"},{"start":6413.595,"end":6429.423,"text":"我們贊成者六人反對者五人棄權者一人現在宣告表決結果在場委員十二人不安主席贊成者六人反對者五人棄權一人本案贊成多數通過現在散會"}]}},{"id":"15835","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15835","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea2af675131898e7336425655b8120616f3be8d109af184be49ced1ec6a38787ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計8案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計1案。\n三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。\n四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-22","start_time":"2024-04-22T08:30:00+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-04-22T12:30:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":14400,"委員發言時間":"08:30:00 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執行調閱小組運作要點草案本日會議由委員徐宇貞等8人及委員吳啟明等6人提出立法院內政委員會數位身份證換發政策及預算執行調閱專案小組運作要點草案等2案並案審查"},{"start":1914.949,"end":1938.145,"text":"決議一、立法院內政委員會數位身份證換發政策及預算執行調閱專案小組運作要點明稱趙委員、徐宇貞等8人提案及委員吳啟明等6人提案通過通過如下一、趙委員、徐宇貞等8人提案通過二、趙委員、吳啟明等6人提案通過三、趙委員、徐宇貞等8人提案及委員吳啟明等6人提案通過"},{"start":1940.035,"end":1964.411,"text":"四、趙委員徐毅臻等8人提案通過五、趙委員徐毅臻等8人提案通過六、趙委員徐毅臻等8人提案及委員吳啟明等6人提案通過七、趙委員吳啟明等6人提案通過八、趙委員吳啟明等6人提案通過九、趙委員徐毅臻等8人提案及委員吳啟明等6人提案通過十、趙委員徐毅臻等8人提案通過十一、趙委員徐毅臻等8人提案通過"},{"start":1965.111,"end":1969.561,"text":"十二、趙委員徐毅臻等8人提案第13點及委員吳啟明等6人提案第12點通過。"},{"start":1971.593,"end":1996.07,"text":"十三、照委員吳啟明等6人提案通過。十四、照委員徐玉珍等8人提案第15點及委員吳啟明等6人提案第14點通過。十五、照委員徐玉珍等8人提案第16點及委員吳啟明等6人提案第15點通過。二、委員徐玉珍等8人提案第12點不予採納。三、推舉高金委員遂沒擔任本小組召集人。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":1999.631,"end":2010.742,"text":"請各位委員上次的會議議事錄有錯誤或遺漏沒有好沒有我們都議事錄確定那繼續進行報告事項和討論事項請先讀嗯"},{"start":2014.861,"end":2028.654,"text":"報告事項一、宣讀上次會議議事錄二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結案計8案。三、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計1案。討論事項一、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":2039.434,"end":2043.258,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":2048.643,"end":2077.042,"text":"報告事項第二案,處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結案計8案。報告事項第三案,113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結案一案。經理送書面報告或使得通知。那這案以委員報告以書面"},{"start":2078.002,"end":2098.132,"text":"報告已經提送請各位委員有沒有預算得以動之提報院會。有沒有意見。沒有。好。那沒有我們就稍微意思錄。那預算得以動之提報院會。"},{"start":2101.409,"end":2121.641,"text":"本路議程所討論事項合併審打。現在我來介紹在場的委員及列席的官員。在場的委員有我們王美惠委員還有我們黃婕委員"},{"start":2129.927,"end":2139.051,"text":"介紹官員行政院秘書長李夢彥李秘書長謝謝外交國防法務處副處長陳永志好謝謝交通環境資源處處長陳以龍陳寧龍教育科學文化處處長吳敬儒"},{"start":2157.668,"end":2165.294,"text":"姓北平等處處長吳秀珍新聞傳播處處長邱肇平消費者保護處處長鍾瑞蘭人權及轉型正義處副處長石埔"},{"start":2186.411,"end":2215.453,"text":"公共關係處處長莊麗蘭主計處處長李秋香食品安全辦公室主任許甫能源及檢探辦公室科長黃景明打擊詐騙辦公室主任李憲明"},{"start":2217.836,"end":2244.733,"text":"中部聯合服務中心執行長 喜定珍銀礁欄聯合服務中心執行長 喜根衛藍部聯合服務中心副執行長 陳慧琳"},{"start":2247.82,"end":2254.788,"text":"東部聯合服務中心執行長 洪宗懿 洪宗凱 洪宗凱不好意思金門聯合服務中心執行長楊尚德個人資料保護委員會籌備處主任李士德"},{"start":2271.087,"end":2297.708,"text":"不當黨產委員會主任委員林鋒正主委行政組組長陳仁光主計員黃燕珍行政院主計總處公務預算處檢任視察李培源"},{"start":2299.537,"end":2316.632,"text":"好謝謝這是以上我們類型的官員。好那我們現在進行進行報告請行政院長李孟彥秘書長來報告。好謝謝"},{"start":2331.477,"end":2357.976,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生、大家早安首先感謝各位委員先進給予本院的支持和協助僅代表陳院長向各位委員致上最高的謝意有關本院113年度凍結預算緊究施政及法治業務等兩案書面報告、辦理情形、檢要說明敬請各位委員指教一"},{"start":2359.571,"end":2385.422,"text":"各決議提案內容及本院說明施政及法制業務凍結一百萬是行政院向貴委員會提出警察不在籍投票之推動情形等書面報告後使得動之一、警察不在籍投票之推動情形本院已經在113年2月22日將《全國性公民投票不在籍投票法》草案重行送請貴院審議"},{"start":2387.083,"end":2410.097,"text":"該草案規劃以移轉投票方式實施公投不在籍投票,投票權人可申請在戶籍地以外之四縣投票,適用對象包括警消人員,為為確保政策成功實施及避免社會疑慮,已於全國性公民投票推動後是實施狀況,作為未來其他選舉制度之參考。"},{"start":2410.777,"end":2429.707,"text":"令移轉投票以外之投票方式,如電子或網路投票等,因涉及電池記錄傳輸及儲存方式等安全性的問題,將請相關機關研議投票技術之吃通安全法規制度等,並視社會凝聚共識後,在務實推動修法作業。"},{"start":2431.431,"end":2448.12,"text":"二、接避者保護法制定情形法務部前移於109年2月20日函報《接避者保護法》法案。事經本院進行5次的審查會議,該部業於113年3月4日再次呈報,是本院院會討論通過後送請貴院審議。"},{"start":2451.162,"end":2469.571,"text":"該草案制定重點包括規範接避範圍、受理接避機關、接避者、接避程序、禁止不利措施原則、不利措施定義、舉證責任分配、救濟內容與程序、報復性行為人之責任、接避者人身安全之保護等"},{"start":2470.191,"end":2485.63,"text":"考量公部門制度較為完善新年度要求也高為尊重公司治理並降低企業衝擊政策定調為公部門先行私部門則採行政指導未來再逐步擴及私部門的法制化"},{"start":2486.371,"end":2504.2,"text":"令法務部聯政署已於中英文網站設置戒避者保護專區公開本草案的條文、立法進度委託研究報告及會議資料等供各界閱覽以鼓勵公眾參與提升本草案的資訊透明度"},{"start":2505.06,"end":2508.421,"text":"三、國家氣候變遷調適行動計劃辦理情形本院願於112年10月4日核定國家氣候變遷調適行動計劃預計投入經費4116億"},{"start":2520.786,"end":2537.934,"text":"工作項目包括126項,由環境部依照氣候法規定需篆擬國家調試年度成果報告,送本院核定。該報告亦將通盤檢討調試策略之推動重點與方向,將可有效落實本計劃。"},{"start":2539.956,"end":2555.81,"text":"建全租屋市場以保障租客權益現行不動產經濟業就居兼凍結或成交的租賃案件需辦理實價登錄另外租賃市場發展及管理條例業餘112年9月1日修正實施"},{"start":2559.033,"end":2573.862,"text":"增訂包租業轉租案例案件應納入這個申報實價登錄,以擴大租訊資認的揭露,同時縮短包租代管業提供租認企業資訊之期程,及時地掌握租認的資訊,並逐步地演繹擴充租認實價登錄適用範圍。"},{"start":2578.224,"end":2600.517,"text":"透過實價登錄、包租代管、租金補貼等資訊政府目前已經掌握了大概五成的租屋資料約40萬.8筆的有效租約未來會透過這個部分來研議怎麼樣的加強申報還有加強租屋市場的管理以保障租客、租屋者的相關權益"},{"start":2603.419,"end":2629.357,"text":"第五,我國少子女化對策計畫推動情形本院已建立跨部會的運作機制由上而下整合教育部、衛福部、勞動部等11個部會資源推動我國少子女化對策計畫1、2及1、1、3主要精進的策略包括放寬育兒津貼、托育補助的補助條件與額度、調降托嬰中心照顧比"},{"start":2630.037,"end":2633.719,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":2648.632,"end":2669.934,"text":"二、第九目新聞傳播業務凍結50萬是行政院向貴委員會提出打詐、策略等書面報告後使得凍資。這個部分包括一、持續要求各部會加強與金融、電信及網路等業者協力合作,發揮煮炸、煮卻及查緝的功能,包括試詐。"},{"start":2671.435,"end":2684.301,"text":"由內政部檢證署持續關注揭露新興的詐騙手法讓民眾了解納入宣傳2、堵詐國家通訊傳播委員會實施攔阻外來外貿電話國際來話的影音警示攔阻惡意簡訊等措施並且跟電信業者合作從源頭阻斷詐騙的訊息"},{"start":2698.027,"end":2705.417,"text":"訴發部也建議111政府專屬短碼簡訊平台,使民眾容易辨識政府的簡訊,降低詐騙的機會。厲3、主詐金管會強化電子支付帳戶,降低冒名申辦"},{"start":2715.33,"end":2724.017,"text":"強化銀行提供虛擬賬號服務的管控精進零貴的關懷提問阻止匯款降低民眾財產損失針對違法投資廣告訂定實名制及下架機制包括遊戲點數的防詐機制降低詐騙的件數懲詐法務部統籌檢調機關強力掃蕩詐騙犯罪"},{"start":2741.809,"end":2747.891,"text":"透過偵審、移交、法院審查、審判等,減少民眾財產損失2、耿旭落實打詐綱領1.5版並召開跨部會打詐策略平台會議本院將持續折騰相關機關針對詐騙趨勢之守法"},{"start":2761.636,"end":2786.271,"text":"等延伸因應的法律跟技術從這個通訊流、人流及金流壓制詐騙減少這個接觸、誤信跟損害等刪減的目標有關上開各項被凍結的預算那懇請各位委員同意解除凍結逼利本院能夠順利推展各項的業務謝謝好謝謝我們李孟燕秘書長的報告"},{"start":2788.959,"end":2802.146,"text":"那下一位我們請我們的不當黨產主委來進行報告。好,謝謝主席。各位女士各位先生大家早。"},{"start":2803.831,"end":2825.328,"text":"今天應邀列席大院內政委員會,是就本會的113年度的預算凍結提出報告,懇請予以支持解凍,以利業務推動。依照大院審議本會113年度的預算案所做成凍結預算的決議,一共凍結兩目三案。凍結金額大概是300萬元。以下請就各凍結案說明。"},{"start":2826.969,"end":2853.83,"text":"第一有關本會整體預算編列5093萬被凍結100萬元部分本會在調查及處理政黨負責組織及其收入管理人不當取得的財產時都是來遵守黨產條例的規定來執行其中就聽證程序之鑑於本會都是依本條例的14條還有本會的舉行聽證因情注意事項"},{"start":2855.552,"end":2871.051,"text":"來辦理在聽證程序均提供當事人及利害關係人陳述意見提出證據的機會並邀集專家學者提供專業意見本會使綜合調查及聽證所發現之事實為不當取得財產的認定及處分"},{"start":2872.952,"end":2896.521,"text":"如對於本會經聽證所為之處分有所不符依照本條例16條的規定可以依照行政徵訟來尋求司法的救濟相關規定都與行政程序法相關的規定符合本會依前該規定鑒於程序以充分保障當事人及利害關係人的法律上的權益符合正當法律程序第二有關本會"},{"start":2901.221,"end":2930.521,"text":"預算的第一幕一般行政向下凍結100萬元的部分說明如下本會是依據黨產條例成立的行政機關為落實政府資訊公開加深人民對黨產處理工作之理解致力於推動相關議題的教育推廣辦理講座出版相關業務又依照教育部在112年2月20號核定頒布的國家轉型正義教育行動綱領著重鼓勵學校發展轉型正義人權教育相關教材教案"},{"start":2931.482,"end":2939.023,"text":"所與新竹高中合辦活動透過轉型正義的教學活動意見交流分享並無行政不中立之情勢"},{"start":2941.087,"end":2969.778,"text":"第三點有關本會第二幕黨產處理業務向下凍結100萬元的部分說明如下因為各國民主轉型過程政治情勢跟歷史經驗都不盡相同為了廣泛深入並精確的理解各國相關法治還有實務經驗的異同還有成因實在有必要就各國民主化的過程黨產處理轉型正義等相關的議題持續進行國際研討交流作為我國黨產處理相關法令解釋職權行使之參考"},{"start":2972.202,"end":2989.029,"text":"本會將持續精進相關議題的研究以上為本會113年度預算凍結的報告懇請各委員支持解除凍結使各項業務能夠依照規劃內容進行並順利推展敬請各位委員先進指教謝謝"},{"start":2995.674,"end":2998.838,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":3019.422,"end":3046.959,"text":"現在我們進行審查我們委員執行前原例做以下幾點先告本會委員發言時間6分鐘必要延長2分鐘會本會委員發言6分鐘上午10點30分截止發言登記因為今天預算處理本會會議就不處理臨時提案請各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":3048.562,"end":3053.605,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":3079.168,"end":3101.52,"text":"秘書長,我不知道秘書長在前一陣子有沒有看到新聞報導有人說這個是我們國家兒童未來館的新建就是選舉才浮上來的選舉服管我不知道秘書長有沒有看到這個新聞對,我看到有一些外界的誤解"},{"start":3105.149,"end":3117.016,"text":"議長,其實這一個早就核定了總經費達到165億那我如果沒有記錯的話我們蘇貞昌院長也親自主持了"},{"start":3117.876,"end":3144.623,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon 秘書長,您大概說一下,我知道細部你一定不了解,但這個是不是我們積極在推動的一個政策?是,我想這個是已經院正式核定的計畫,也列為重要的列管推動的計畫,所以這個是既定的政策,而且不會改變。"},{"start":3148.726,"end":3166.237,"text":"現在的執行進度有沒有落後?他是這樣本來是要考慮整個用統包的方式來招標那文化部使得部長評估起來覺得因為整個未來館的這個科技展示的科技日新月異"},{"start":3167.117,"end":3169.22,"text":"﹐一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2﹐一﹐一"},{"start":3188.041,"end":3197.584,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。breviation of Procedure of Procedure of Procedure of Procedure of Procedure"},{"start":3218.896,"end":3239.836,"text":"這個像啊這個我們現在都知道國家兒童未來館他現在只是籌備處啦齁那其實啊國家漫畫博物館跟鐵道博物館他們都有專屬的網頁所以進度大家都會知道我的意思不是說我們還要再成立一個新的網頁其實不需要"},{"start":3240.476,"end":3262.45,"text":"但文化部應該在他們的文化部的網頁上這個是這麼一個重大的一個建設165億有列管的文化部是不是應該適時的在他們文化部的網頁上這個進度到哪裡要更新要讓大家知道我覺得如果這樣做的話問題就沒有了啦是不是"},{"start":3265.049,"end":3288.967,"text":"這我們來對文化部來做這個要求對啊我一直認為這個其實一個很簡單的事情他也不用再成立一個新的網頁文化部他本身自己部裡面的網頁就可以來做這件事了好不好好可以啦可以這我們來處理好謝謝那秘書長您請回我請那個林主委"},{"start":3297.19,"end":3315.505,"text":"主委,其實我們這個不當黨產其實是蠻辛苦做了很多不過我這邊有一個要請教一下雖然有很多是法令、程序上的問題但我們有的收回來的我們有沒有盡快想辦法把它活用"},{"start":3317.24,"end":3330.606,"text":"按照促轉條約的規定,黨產收回之後在行政院成立了促轉基金。那促轉基金現在是國發會來主管。所以相關的資金的運用由國發會來召集他們來處理。"},{"start":3333.046,"end":3336.109,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":3353.664,"end":3364.549,"text":"對我們也知道會有這個問題所以我們也是希望我們也會因為那個出產基金有個管理的委員會我們也有一席的委員我們會去表達我們的意見那當然還是要那個委員會來決定"},{"start":3366.364,"end":3383.451,"text":"我覺得你們的意見非常重要欸你們在這邊有沒有據理力爭說我們既然收回來了你收回來如果在那邊不使用其實讓全國的民眾人民啊會有另外一種不好的觀感啊你收回來結果放在那邊養蚊子啊或者讓他壞"},{"start":3384.611,"end":3385.812,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":3406.431,"end":3409.475,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":3425.191,"end":3447.183,"text":"我當然知道啦齁啊這個很複雜啦齁有的財產收回來是國有的是齁全部都是國有的那有的是中央主管機關有的是地方政府是那如果是中央主管機關的話要配合應該是比較好配合啊如果是地方政府可能是不好配合會不會有這種情況譬如說金山青龍黃中心就有類似的狀況齁"},{"start":3449.587,"end":3466.961,"text":"對我現在就我舉一個齁一樣齁是在新北一個在板橋的這個我們的這個放送所你應該知道嘛齁啊放送所這個是啊中央政府齁其實這個放送所是在板橋那個那個原來是中廣的一個電台沒錯啊那這個是之前交通部"},{"start":3467.521,"end":3469.522,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":3485.371,"end":3507.999,"text":"同樣的在新北主委你剛說的是金山活動中心當然土地是新北市政府的所以現在丟在那邊也不能用也不什麼然後地方所有的地方的里長或什麼大家會覺得你好好的東西放在那邊至少也可以給我們金山的人去用或什麼的聲音就出來"},{"start":3510.02,"end":3530.711,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon 因為在收回來在收的時候新北市政府就表達說希望要整體的規劃利用因為土地是新北市政府然後建物是國產署在管"},{"start":3531.371,"end":3532.572,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":3552.665,"end":3581.153,"text":"一個很重要的問題我剛講的放送所是一個很好的例子大家都看到了那人家不會管你什麼單位什麼單位民眾也不知道對不對那其實我覺得如果積極協調應該可以解決不然我跟你講我如果是新北市政府我故意我就是給你放在那邊我要整體規劃我可能規劃30年還沒規劃出來那結果你們每天會被罵啊中央政府也每天會被罵謝謝我的提醒這個我們也有注意到那我們會盡力好不好好謝謝"},{"start":3585.681,"end":3585.861,"text":"黨產會主委"},{"start":3607.882,"end":3630.737,"text":"好林主委好首先請教一個非常基本的問題因為上個月其實國民黨的黨主席他在會議的時候提到說我們執政黨可能會透過黨場會來沒收未來四年他們的政黨補助款然後包括所有的國民黨收入當然這個我相信你們已經澄清過很多次了是不是藉這個機會再跟大家澄清一下你們會追討這些政黨補助款來成為你們的這個合法的"},{"start":3637.082,"end":3651.101,"text":"則收入嗎?其實這個事情在黨產會成立之初第一個韓式就在講這個事因為我們也注意到說外界可能會有所誤解所以特別在7年前就提出澄清那個講法很簡單就是說"},{"start":3652.222,"end":3677.681,"text":"不當黨產的處理只是針對不當黨產如果你是合法的收入完全不受影響也就是不會成為認為處分跟追徵的對象那裡面當然會包括政黨補助款包括合法的政治獻金包括選舉補助款這一類的全部都是依照現行的法律可以有的收入那從實證的經驗看起來國民黨在過去七八年來有哪一年的政黨補助款被黨產會執行了嗎?"},{"start":3678.982,"end":3682.544,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":3702.1,"end":3709.305,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 INTERVIEWER三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案"},{"start":3718.411,"end":3719.771,"text":"兩家公司名下有156億的資產。我們現在追討的進度是如何?"},{"start":3746.995,"end":3763.613,"text":"委員說明一下就是說沒有錯委員剛剛的資訊都是正確的但是有一個部分我們必須要說因為當時提起這個黨產訴訟其實有三個單位一個是國民黨那國民黨的部分就如委員剛剛說在1月20幾號的時候他就敗訴就確定了"},{"start":3765.074,"end":3767.776,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":3793.831,"end":3797.772,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。netesle,"},{"start":3822.739,"end":3836.204,"text":"所以在我看來應該是樂觀的因為主要的國民黨的部分都已經敗訴都確定另外兩個本來不應該有權利提起訴訟的這個公司應該是不會有太大的問題但希望我們的預判是正確的"},{"start":3836.769,"end":3860.321,"text":"OK好謝謝林主委的說明再來我也要請教一下就是接下來啦當然如果接下來半年可能還會來來回回那中等其他兩個單位現在上訴的結果出來之後那我們接下來會如何使用這一些促轉基金喔因為我比較想知道的是最後啦真的這兩家公司的這一些資產追討回來之後"},{"start":3862.062,"end":3867.014,"text":"作為促轉基金,我們是不是會完全的使用在人權相關的推動上面?"},{"start":3867.578,"end":3894.08,"text":"我剛才也說明過了就是依照出產條例第7條所有周圍的黨產不管他是什麼樣的形式包括不動產包括現金包括公司的股權這個都會回到行政院所設的出產基金那麼他有監管委員會那目前這個出產基金主管的單位是國發會他們會我想會徵詢大家的意見來統一來看要怎麼樣使用做一個比較妥善的規劃好謝謝林主委的說明可以請回座那接下來我們先請人權處副處長"},{"start":3898.063,"end":3900.284,"text":"請我們人情處副處長副處長在就位的同時我來先講一下因為其實我們現在2022年的時候內政部有一個條例是推動威權象徵處置的補助作業要點那我有看到你們這樣的要點內容"},{"start":3919.81,"end":3935.383,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 proporting to the public space of the public space of the public space of the public space of the public space of the public space of the public space of the public space of the public space of the public"},{"start":3947.853,"end":3962.109,"text":"我想請教一下現在問題是卡在哪裡?委員好主席好因為這個補助啊因為有關這個未尋象徵的處置他有很多不同的管有機關包括有中央政府有包括有地方政府"},{"start":3962.79,"end":3984.889,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":3984.989,"end":4003.212,"text":"當然另外一個部分是因為現在的這個管有機關裡面有一部分是屬於在像國防部的這個軍營裡面那這部分在國防部前幾個星期的這個輿論裡面也有提到就是說他們在這個整個部隊的傳統上面來講在處置上面需要多所考量"},{"start":4003.82,"end":4026.353,"text":"此部分在行政院這邊也都在跟不同的部會之間在做更積極的溝通好這就是我希望來跟你們拜託的就是政院其實應該要更積極的不是被動的就是說我們願意提供補助但是就是要看各地方各單位願不願意申請那其實這樣子我們這件事情轉行政議的進度會非常的怠慢"},{"start":4027.393,"end":4056.046,"text":"那最後我要請教一下就是中正紀念堂啦這個已經是老掉牙的題目但是我們還是要有所進度喔因為我還是再拿一下我們高雄的例子我們高雄在2007年17年前當時的陳菊市長現在的陳菊院長就已經把高雄市的中正文化中心改成為文化中心不只是以改名而且把蔣中正的銅像都已經移除了那我不知道說過了17年現在中正紀念堂卻沒有辦法"},{"start":4057.546,"end":4059.167,"text":"﹐一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。��"},{"start":4082.377,"end":4104.004,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。breviation Committee指示文化部猜不猜這件事情可能需要多溝通,但是在沒有做成具體的"},{"start":4106.301,"end":4107.863,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。��"},{"start":4120.066,"end":4149.429,"text":"好,我是希望像是聖兵交接啊這種崇拜的儀式還有同項的拆除這其實都是應該要優先來做的啦那我當然知道說呃行政院在18號的時候有核定通過5月19號是白色恐怖的記憶日那這個當然有助於我們的集體記憶來做轉型正義可是轉型正義就是在跟時間賽跑必須要再次的強調這個時間真的是一刻不得待慢所以我還是希望政院在這整件事情上面可以更積極更加速好嗎"},{"start":4150.089,"end":4157.533,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 INTERVIEWER三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 INTERVIEWER四"},{"start":4179.946,"end":4195.312,"text":"律師長早律師長我想今天竟然是您來這裡備詢那我想什麼問題都應該可以問因為行政院國家的事都是行政院的事好那我第一個其實我剛剛要呼應這個張宏祿張委員我一直主張"},{"start":4196.352,"end":4217.816,"text":"就是我們中央政府雖然是中央還要接一個地方才會到人民但也正因為這個距離所以中央所做的事務資訊其實是應該要更明白的揭露給人民知道給民眾知道這樣才知道中央的這個層級政府到底做了什麼事啊比如說剛剛張委員剛剛說的這個兒童未來館的興建"},{"start":4221.357,"end":4231.55,"text":"是啊,而未來館的興建不但現在在加緊進度當中而且我記得預算也增加許多嘛然後這個建築師也是得到大獎這資訊秘書長知道嗎?是,我有掌握"},{"start":4234.605,"end":4255.951,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。stanbul三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。stanbul三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。stanbul三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。stanbul三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。stanbul三、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。stanbul三、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。"},{"start":4264.173,"end":4267.275,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":4279.864,"end":4281.805,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。netesle"},{"start":4295.23,"end":4311.152,"text":"議員會議"},{"start":4311.853,"end":4321.381,"text":"規劃中的都應該要能夠揭露我為什麼這樣講因為其實我自己推動了多年的一個案子在我們樹林區希望能夠有社會住宅並且是能夠是有醫養專區結合進來的這個案子我在網站上就看不到啊"},{"start":4328.667,"end":4356.29,"text":"我覺得這是很可惜的一件事情 這個我們另外等一下來討論那在進入到本件這個之前我也想跟這個部長這邊再請教一下部長你就知道說其實既然講到新建中規劃中中央和地方政府的權責的這個部分推動涉宰你知道現在中央和地方推動的速度會是如何嗎這幾年中央和地方以新北台北這樣來講好了是"},{"start":4359.212,"end":4360.834,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。nolds."},{"start":4360.834,"end":4362.175,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。News."},{"start":4362.175,"end":4364.958,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。News."},{"start":4378.092,"end":4379.973,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":4406.593,"end":4409.597,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":4421.69,"end":4425.231,"text":"﹐一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案﹐一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":4444.617,"end":4446.959,"text":"、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度"},{"start":4464.275,"end":4467.597,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":4486.448,"end":4506.065,"text":"哇!啊這個到底他是真的有需要這樣的資料還是是其實他這個速度其實就是因為我們的意見不一致所以有卡關的狀態秘書長你知道我們的社會住宅案件當中有多少就有這樣的狀況嗎?中央和地方不同調所以推動的速度不一樣你有知道這樣的現象嗎?"},{"start":4507.786,"end":4526.204,"text":"我的了解是確實每個地方政府態度不一致,那有的確實是在速度上、效率上、配合度上都有一些……對,而且這些東西你其實放在檯面上的話,他也可以說得有情有據,有評有據啊,我要求地方的提出交通影響評估,"},{"start":4527.164,"end":4555.3,"text":"對阿聽起來很合理阿但是你到底要求他要到多細次數要幾次這個就是其中的玄機就是在裡面了嘛所以我們會建議內政部這個定期把各縣市政府的進度來對外公開這就是回到我剛剛說的這個資訊應該要被揭露每一個中央層級地方政府到底都要求哪一些資料要補貼進度是如何要讓民眾可以了解這樣才知道"},{"start":4556.501,"end":4561.848,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":4572.161,"end":4591.888,"text":"社會住宅的部分是能夠把中央跟地方的權責能夠第一分清楚第二能夠把資訊揭露讓社會公平這是我的要求啊那有跟委員報告目前有一個新的政策就是各縣市政府所開發的譬如說區段徵收區要提供3到5%直轄市要5%那縣的話要3%的土地來作為社宅用地"},{"start":4598.871,"end":4599.791,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":4618.82,"end":4638.061,"text":"做這個規定來講是非常合情合理的所以呢我也是希望中央能夠就這個規定能夠有更多的彰顯跟資訊討論是那另外對於已經合定的已經正在進行中的新的這些重劃區譬如說像新北就是溫子郡溫子郡嗎我們就直接講明了就是溫子郡啊那麼大的一片內政部會用勸導"},{"start":4640.223,"end":4648.628,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。breviation of Public Information is a very important part."},{"start":4669.599,"end":4689.309,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":4689.469,"end":4690.749,"text":"當我們住在裏面,然後懷孕生小孩,這是國家內建的。"},{"start":4711.616,"end":4737.518,"text":"但是等到他6歲要等到決定上小學的學籍到底要不要搬家可能剛好就卡在這個社會住宅的一個更迭的部分因為他6年嘛3再加3延長之後6其實就剛好必須要搬離那這個部分是不是有機會可以有任何的規定讓他可以減油或拖油我想基於對抗少子化的這個部分來講其實各界應該都能夠接受"},{"start":4740.14,"end":4767.523,"text":"有育兒需求尤其學齡兒童的這個部分年輕人可能可以多展援或者是再優先我想這個規定社會應該是可以接受的啦因為學籍的部分真的是一個很難處理我到底要不要用這個學籍去就讀小學這個我想秘釀應該自己家裡有小孩很清楚吧是所以我們會再來跟花次請他們把這個部分納入考量好謝謝秘書長謝謝"},{"start":4771.991,"end":4779.175,"text":"好,謝謝我們審查會委員執行。下一位我們請劉巡庭委員。好,劉巡庭委員,謝謝。好,謝謝主席。這個秘書長跟打造辦公室有請。好,好,秘書長還有打造辦公室主委。是,委員好。"},{"start":4801.609,"end":4821.424,"text":"今天因為討論預算凍結書面報告案因為是總體業務所以其實蠻多都在討論範圍之內本席先就打詐的一個特別案例跟行政院跟打詐辦公室做一個研討這個當然我們都非常同意就是說打擊詐騙你應該各式各樣的手段都要用然後用盡所有的方法重演來處理這個詐騙的問題這我想大家"},{"start":4824.546,"end":4850.053,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。netesle,您今天花時間去檢討說打詐執行的成效大概這幾分鐘的時間也講不清楚但是我要講一個特殊的案例這算是本席選區發生的一個特別的事情也就是說詐騙集團猖獗的間接受害人叫做警示賬戶的存款人這分得出來什麼叫警示賬戶嗎什麼叫這個衍生性管制賬戶嗎要不要簡單說明一下"},{"start":4852.702,"end":4878.994,"text":"呃...我是不是請...包括主任說明可以,都可以沒關係比較細節好,跟委員報告所謂的警示賬戶說就是在這個賬戶曾經有過這個詐騙的行為包括這個借用的這個詐騙借用詐騙集團的使用那另外衍生性賬戶就是說那有其他的跟他相關的其他的不同的的這個銀行我們都一併列入管制"},{"start":4879.591,"end":4902.745,"text":"也就是說結書帳戶的程度是比較高的嘛,衍生性相對來講它沒有那麼嚴格嘛,對不對?大局長沒錯,方向是這樣子喔。我覺得你講一個個案喔,這個倒霉鬼某A是一位汽車引擎技師,他只是幫客戶B保養汽車,然後當然就保養汽車收錢嘛,所以這客戶B就把這個保養費用轉入A的銀行帳戶。好,這個客戶B啊,他本身是"},{"start":4903.746,"end":4905.388,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案"},{"start":4926.809,"end":4953.494,"text":"但是明明就是一筆正常的業務交易啊但是A的帳戶也被列成警示帳戶我只是個汽車維修員那麼倒楣做了一個生意因為我的客戶牽涉詐騙結果我自己的帳戶也被設成所謂的警示帳戶很長一段時間都沒有辦法動用啊這個相關的這個款項那遇到這樣的事情大家都求這個當然就循線來處理救濟方式請問啊主任啊這救濟的時候他應該走什麼樣的程序"},{"start":4955,"end":4979.717,"text":"我們同意他如果說這個金流確實跟詐騙沒有直接的關係那金管會這邊會做一個通融的處置那我們也希望說這個經過查證之後確實沒有關係的所以能夠適度降低的這個賬戶的管制對就是說你剛剛講說當然嘛就是大家會經過適時的查明之後就予以通融處置不過實際上的程序是什麼你清楚嗎"},{"start":4981.508,"end":4998.134,"text":"這個細節我比較不了解這個申請人要檢附文件親附這個設定警示戶籍地或限住地的警察分局、偵查隊、刑警大隊請求釐清原委到警察機關去尋求這個幫忙警察就相關的偵查隊或刑警大隊發現有誤設的狀況的時候他要發公文書"},{"start":5001.135,"end":5001.295,"text":"凍結書面報告案"},{"start":5014.624,"end":5026.073,"text":"這就是程序其實非常複雜那其實當然打仗的方向是好的但是實際上在這個過程中有沒有牽連到很多不相關的人士我覺得這部分政府機關的行政流程方面其實可以做一些討論跟檢討看看有沒有比較簡單辨明的一個方式來處理"},{"start":5031.997,"end":5048.204,"text":"因為目前可以通報警視帳戶也就是把你的帳戶鎖起來的單位法院可以、檢察署可以、司法警察機關也可以那一旦列為警視帳戶的時候這個有的時候長達兩年然後剛剛我講的這個行政程序其實是非常繁瑣的那我現在就要問"},{"start":5049.485,"end":5050.687,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":5066.829,"end":5069.814,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":5083.658,"end":5107.765,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我們對於這個打詐當然要嚴以懲處但是只要跟打詐沒有直接關聯的我們會從輕來發落就是對於這一些如果說能夠提出確切證明然後也能夠詳細說明這個資金流跟詐騙集團沒有關係的話那我們會請金管會對這一部分要適度的放寬今天談的層級當然今天來都是行政院的長官"},{"start":5110.126,"end":5135.211,"text":"所以說我想你們對跨部也瞭解內政部警政的作為瞭解金管會或怎麼樣是應該召開一個這個協商的一個平台讓這種讓這種案例他是可以被妥善處理的也就是說也許是用衍生管制的方式就是解凍的時候他相對來講他的這個程序也好標準也好是相對寬鬆的速度要加快其實一般的人民願意會願意配合基於打擊詐騙去配合這個警方調查大家都會配合"},{"start":5135.791,"end":5153.103,"text":"但是如果他可以很明確的證明清白的時候我希望在行政流程的過程之中他可以不要那麼繁瑣嘛他又要跑警察又要跑警察局又要跑銀行中間還要等他的公文往返那這個速度來講我覺得常常是很慢的是不是能夠有一個機制你們要經過商量跟討論之後比如說有一個時間啊"},{"start":5154.204,"end":5155.666,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":5171.448,"end":5191.919,"text":"一個禮拜兩個禮拜也許最多一個月的時間我的帳戶為了配合調查可能不能用但是我至少很明確的知道什麼時候我可以用嘛至少他在調度他自己的財務或在做他的生意的時候他不會受到太多的衝擊現在就是說你沒有明確的標準跟機制的時候那沒完沒了我不知道這個什麼時候才會解凍那很有可能他就會影響到很多事情那我是覺得這樣子牽連太深了"},{"start":5194.16,"end":5200.023,"text":"所以這部分是什麼時候可以提供一個完整的說明我們會請金管會來研議我覺得這個只要跟詐騙集團沒有關係的不應該受這麼嚴格的管控那這個也影響到個人的權利還有整體經濟的發展"},{"start":5211.334,"end":5237.271,"text":"這本其實完全贊成打擊詐騙的行為附帶效果就是衝擊民眾的部分救濟的制度要相對完備所以說是不是請這個行政院大概在我跟你們你們要多久的時間研商一套比較明確的SOP我們在一個月之內一個月之內好不好研商一個完整的SOP讓這個救濟的形式讓不相干的人不要因為這樣受到衝擊但當然打詐的力道是一點都不能放下來了可以嗎是好"},{"start":5237.771,"end":5259.097,"text":"好,因為本席本來還有準備另外一個這個租屋市長題目但因為禮拜三嘛我們還有別的解凍案那我們就內政部在的時候我們來做討論那我們就針對打炸這個題目請辦公室這邊還有行政院這邊加強處理我們一個月之後繼續追蹤,可以嗎?好,好,可以好,謝謝,辛苦了好,謝謝我們牛行廷我們委員的執行好,現在請完美會委員好,謝謝"},{"start":5267.817,"end":5275.006,"text":"主席我們請我們的秘書長跟我們大家的主任來請秘書長"},{"start":5281.616,"end":5289.541,"text":"市長跟主任,在這個打架的環境裡面,我們已經政府說很多次了。在這個辦公室裡面,我們專門在打架。市長、主任,你有感覺說越打架,賠的越多嗎?來。"},{"start":5307.746,"end":5326.645,"text":"跟委員報告,其實打詐不是在臺灣,是在全世界都有。那我一定要農打,我們一定要農打。沒有啦,我如果你說你會越打詐,會變得越多沒有啦。沒有不對喔,這最主要是說,這最主要是說,這是不勞而獲的一個觀點。因為為什麼本席會這樣說,因為我相信在座的民意代表,"},{"start":5327.806,"end":5339.211,"text":"候補處都接到訪問的。訪問的當中像你們都說我們可以讓受害者的錢偷渡回來像這個我們機關電信的網路你說可以讓受害者騙到回來在這裡面可以偷渡回來的錢"},{"start":5354.775,"end":5355.276,"text":"這個單位,11頁,掩蓋在行政署的凍結裡面,這個單位方便45頁。主任。"},{"start":5367.978,"end":5369.739,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":5386.516,"end":5392.5,"text":"主任,因為說實在有的人都會說,他還貪心啦,他還會去訪騙,有時候環境的關係,想說,啊我又快快來討諸一下,像看手機的時候,我之前在我們的委員會講過,我們的專家的"},{"start":5408.567,"end":5410.427,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":5428.376,"end":5430.158,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲"},{"start":5446.462,"end":5453.206,"text":"我跟委員報告打造辦公室成立沒有開支都只用一個辦公室而已另外再來就是說打造工人裡面一定有辦的改變的組織裡面這個辦公室有開13頁的衣裳這13頁都是在經濟事務及法務部"},{"start":5472.756,"end":5477.057,"text":"對阿,你如果我說都沒開錢,這裏面如果說有關係喔,要怎樣找回來,怎樣去用的裏面,你看在數位的修正裏面,還有在數位要怎樣鑑定的裏面,這都是錢耶,這不是沒開錢耶。對阿,你如果我說沒開錢,我都要討價。"},{"start":5498.982,"end":5507.447,"text":"這個專案辦公室是按國保會調人,在那做整合協調的工作。對啦,因為我感覺你是一個很nice的人,我感覺你未來也要做,你如果沒那年金,你也不可能行為,溝通不對啦。"},{"start":5518.578,"end":5525.102,"text":"因為你有了解北省的訴求、北省的問題就對了。所以主任我要跟你說,因為這個打造應用到台灣的經濟非常大。我們不能說跟他們在各國各國,跟你在台灣有什麼關係,你要怎麼去打造做出你的心結。"},{"start":5543.425,"end":5551.27,"text":"主任,本次跟你講這裡是希望說因為大家的方便、心情和看來的方便,那種感受,你會體會到也知道。他委到、他方便、他要去報案的時候,叫他要去台北、叫他要去樹林、叫他要去哪裡的時候,"},{"start":5565.868,"end":5573.653,"text":"政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 proporting to the Committee of the House of Representatives."},{"start":5593.652,"end":5604.178,"text":"主任來必須聽話有跟委員報告目前看起來最多的這種新的太陽就是網路投資理財的詐騙或是臉書上這個理財的專業那麼請大家加入他的這個類似這個群組那造成詐騙"},{"start":5612.662,"end":5634.832,"text":"那這個部分目前我們行政院也導大辦公室一直在對新的詐騙形態在研擬對策那另外羅政委也召集相關的會議準備提針對網路的詐騙理財的詐騙提出一個專法再送到貴院來那麼我們希望因為人家說因為這個專法裡面第一次幾天我也跟我們幾個董事開過記者會說裡面的超函裡面"},{"start":5643.075,"end":5649.119,"text":"也要放一個瓦礫房,因為有時間裡面的局長、裡面的情形,我們如果沒有有這個瓦礫房來交協助的時候,我相信你怎麼又對不上派人收詐騙的情形跟案件?"},{"start":5663.094,"end":5683.364,"text":"謝謝委員的指教有啦,我們有把這個窩裡飯的條款放在我們的專法裡面有啦他們如果說有裡面的人有歡迎其實我們是重新發落這個詐騙確實是整個世界各國也都面臨的問題英國最近才召集五個國家他們一年需要10千億的資本主任因為詐騙這個問題是全世界都有啦要不然全世界都有我認為我們"},{"start":5692.669,"end":5700.593,"text":"台灣國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議"},{"start":5715.9,"end":5736.797,"text":"臺灣隊可以說到臺灣隊比這樣我們要更加努力特別對詐騙犯的這些刑責還有像這些臉書等等他怎麼樣能夠我們由法院來要求現在都是用勸導用協調的方式如果有這個專法我相信這個打詐的那個效果會更好"},{"start":5736.977,"end":5743.02,"text":"好,來。來,主任先生。來,秘書長。我們是要跟你說最近有一些食品的問題。我們在食品的問題六條的時候,最近跟這個環境局的時候,你看你們發生感覺有問題的時候,又在國會覺得有問題。在這裡的操作的時候,你看九十二位。"},{"start":5760.189,"end":5768.252,"text":"你看這樣大家都做那間也有問題那間也有問題是不是我們的動作太過慢跟地方的聯繫不夠因為本市所知道這個問題像最近爆零這個食品的問題你看吃下去之後第20點鐘裡面"},{"start":5783.598,"end":5792.984,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。breviation of Procedure of Procedure of Procedure"},{"start":5813.638,"end":5822.164,"text":"來,主委,在本社要跟你說的,因為時間的關係,我最主要就是說,你們的運動、你們的選團,不夠,因為我有看到,你們也很好,再鼓勵我一定會讓你們鼓勵,在選團裡面、在座談裡面,你們有兩張,一張在台北,一張在嘉義,都用台語,就在選團,這非常好。"},{"start":5843.598,"end":5855.003,"text":"因為尤其南部人可以聽出你們在做什麼所謂應用很大所以在這裏面本身要跟你說的就是說你們的選團裏面你們說嘉義市跟嘉義縣都共辦7張台北辦10張尤其嘉義市有20名是不當黨產我也問問你們會不會去說明清楚尤其你們做到"},{"start":5872.858,"end":5891.703,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報"},{"start":5892.583,"end":5901.485,"text":"這個時間,太久了,宣傳不夠積極。主委,本身來賓時間也不夠,但是我的用書面再跟您提供意見,也希望您可以回答本事。因為我覺得您有認真的做,但是做不夠的。"},{"start":5913.268,"end":5921.152,"text":"我們一定要讓北省了解,我們不是說外帶一個政黨,要對付帶一個政黨。是不應該契機的財產,我們要以國家來討得回來。以上。好,謝謝我們外媒會委員的執行。我們下一位我們請黃建斌委員。黃建斌委員執行完我們休息文中。好,謝謝。"},{"start":5942.168,"end":5967.664,"text":"主席我們有請我們不當黨產委員會主委林主委主委早安主委主委如果說我們做的事都是對的事情應該會聽到大家的民眾的掌聲跟鼓勵那我們如果沒有聽到大家的掌聲跟鼓勵代表它裡面充滿了這個爭議跟衝突"},{"start":5970.746,"end":5972.628,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":5995.107,"end":6010.477,"text":"按照這個黨產條例來看,它跟促轉會不一樣,因為這個條例裡面沒有六日條款。所以,它的執行到什麼時候,現在要說給主委。那我想要請教主委,主委促轉會是任務型的組織還是常設組織?委員是說促轉會嗎?"},{"start":6017.472,"end":6028.692,"text":"黨產不當黨產委員會我們當然是一個任務型的組織那你如果要不然現在黨是做做條款所以你認為是一個政治立法院立法所以所以主委認為他是一個任務型的組織嘛對不對是"},{"start":6030.652,"end":6047.339,"text":"那依據我們當然條例第二條第一項來看,黨產會跟促轉會都是屬任務型的組織。那所以既然是任務型的組織,除了你跟其他的委員都是在8月31號就職,所以任期是應該到今年的9月1號結束嘛對不對?對,8月底。阿這邊任務結束了,黨產會各位繼續嗎?"},{"start":6053.401,"end":6067.654,"text":"則要看怎麼看任務有沒有結束那標準是什麼現在我們的處分的案件絕大多數都還在法院訴訟當中最近今年1月跟3月各有一件判決"},{"start":6068.575,"end":6091.988,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6092.448,"end":6096.33,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。netesle,"},{"start":6121.28,"end":6142.275,"text":"那我想這個充滿爭議性的話題就連我們大法官司製在793號的議件書就指出我們黨產會的主任委員與跟我們促轉會的主任委員都是屬於特任這個外觀上吉隆一邊誤解為是黨產議會行政院所屬的二級獨立機關那促轉會"},{"start":6144.177,"end":6160.458,"text":"處長委員會是由行政院長提名,立法院同意。黨產委員會是由行政院長派任。這是大法官所說的。所以這兩個立法的體制跟人民的模式是不太一致的。"},{"start":6162.068,"end":6176.221,"text":"如果依照大法官的這樣同意書的解釋來講請教主委齁你是不是贊成未來我們黨產會如果要延續的話應該要先修法任命的權限跟促轉會一樣都是由立法院來進行同意我想這個尊重立法院的決定吧謝謝主委"},{"start":6177.922,"end":6197.108,"text":"所以剛剛我們早上我們其他委員也提到齁就是黨產會不是只要追黨產我們張宏祿委員也提到青山的這個案子齁我們追來之後應該要好好的維護管理嘛因為這個會對社會現象有不好的印象啦如果說你人站在那裡你如果不管理放在那裡扒橫這是不是對黨產會也是不好的事情"},{"start":6198.028,"end":6198.888,"text":"議員這一點我可以說明一下嗎?"},{"start":6221.153,"end":6223.735,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":6239.707,"end":6241.268,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":6257.077,"end":6282.904,"text":"那另外最後一個我要請教主委就是說去年9月10月的時候教育部有發函要求各縣市政府要嚴守教育及行政中立不得動用行政資源支持或反對特定的政黨但是本席受到全國教育產業總共會的一個陳情說各位看到這個案子齁立法院我想這個公文看到的東西啊"},{"start":6286.809,"end":6312.437,"text":"各位,立法院給你們的權利跟義務不包含去學校進行任何的活動特別是針對有特定性的組織的政黨那本席要求任期不到5個月的時間在中間我要請你記得明文規定什麼可以做就去做什麼不能做就不要做新的國會不是你們想要做什麼就可以"},{"start":6313.598,"end":6323.453,"text":"謝謝主委我們剛才的說明裡面其實都有提到這個部分我們按照教育部的轉型正義行動綱領我們在配合在好謝謝主委謝謝各位這段時間要不要請教一下我們秘書長"},{"start":6337.413,"end":6362.172,"text":"委員好 秘書長好秘書長首先恭喜秘書長接下來未來要往新的領域來繼續為我們國人來服務那特別是接下來要去的單位跟我們花東息息相關就是我們交通的事情那在去之前我想要請秘書長有兩件事情要拜託秘書長一個就是我們的員警的問題我們剛才提到打詐國家隊打詐國家隊其實第一線人員是我們的員警"},{"start":6365.114,"end":6367.057,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":6376.909,"end":6402.99,"text":"我想我們警察警力吃緊的情況之下近10年來我們又加了這麼多的憂慮在我們員警身上今天員警的工作量真的吃不消我們在這10年來的警察自殺率越來越增高總共有52名警察來自殺那近4年也有22名我想這個工作量會影響到員警整個執勤的心態"},{"start":6404.071,"end":6406.051,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":6432.437,"end":6434.878,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲"},{"start":6450.97,"end":6456.173,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":6481.225,"end":6505.362,"text":"關關的部分是臺東很重要的一個經濟的命脈那我想在這幾年整個入客減少來臺灣的情況之下對關關業者衝擊很大加上我們4月3號的這個大地震無疑是雪上加霜我相信有很多很多的問題等著新的我們的部長來解決那也希望部長能夠多發一些心思那本期這邊如果有任何的"},{"start":6506.262,"end":6529.043,"text":"問題也會即刻跟部長來反映也希望部長能夠來協助我們花東這邊的觀光業者還有我們交通的問題我是不是簡單跟委員報告一下就是第一個花東的交通我想目前馬上就包括蘇花安如果馬上現在要還品馬上如果通過就可以來動工那如果完成他就可以跟國道5"},{"start":6529.724,"end":6533.205,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度"},{"start":6555.293,"end":6557.134,"text":"總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":6575.828,"end":6593.114,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":6593.254,"end":6619.832,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲輸長也謝謝我們未來的部長那希望華東的問題能夠多多老下背信那以上資訊好謝謝我們黃正斌委員的執行那密書長我們這黃正斌委員台東的事情要拜託你那我們先來休息文中謝謝"},{"start":6627.398,"end":6643.61,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計2、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計2、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計2、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":6644.923,"end":6655.727,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央"},{"start":6672.54,"end":6681.349,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計3案。 Minne4、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":6695.242,"end":6718.725,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne4、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。 Minne5、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。 Minne6、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。 Minne7、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。 Minne8、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。 Minne9、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":6719.305,"end":6726.747,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":6757.001,"end":6765.947,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案"},{"start":6767.807,"end":6782.864,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne3、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne4、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne5、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。 Minne6、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。 Minne7、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。 Minne8、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書"},{"start":6789.002,"end":6793.388,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計3"},{"start":6826.65,"end":6832.398,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2"},{"start":6848.439,"end":6857.649,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計3、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計4、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計5、"},{"start":6862.672,"end":6882.122,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。閱讀書面報告案計2案。閱讀書面報告案計2案。閱讀書面報告案計2案。閱讀書面報告案計2案。閱讀書面報告案計2案。閱讀書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":6886.734,"end":6894.187,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2"},{"start":6897.785,"end":6902.886,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案"},{"start":6917.63,"end":6938,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":6939.121,"end":6950.485,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央"},{"start":6954.919,"end":6977.501,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":6980.006,"end":7001.372,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":7005.67,"end":7013.339,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 bicy"},{"start":7018.068,"end":7038.463,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":7055.451,"end":7058.313,"text":"好,我們繼續開會。我們下一位請我們兵協中委員。好,謝謝。好。"},{"start":7068.191,"end":7073.812,"text":"感謝主席,我請秘書長。好,請李秘書長。好,謝謝。恭喜秘書長,先恭喜你齁。但是我們現在也是面對一些問題,我們也是要來談一下齁。也感謝這次這個打炸撤進作為50萬經費的解凍案齁。是。"},{"start":7098.107,"end":7098.368,"text":"剛剛看了這個報告也感謝貴院"},{"start":7103.516,"end":7109.559,"text":"給我們這些立法委員什麼叫做一致簽金啦齁當然也給我們提供納付一關詐騙的一個行為齁我們今天用每一天的過個就要來解凍我們這個打詐撤進作為五十萬經費齁嗯 我覺得這是在欺騙我們的委員或是在欺騙這個貴婿啦齁啊給他寄書後過個一項就是我們現在"},{"start":7130.589,"end":7139.571,"text":"經濟統計,臺灣每一天真的會發生4件詐騙案。民怨滔天,結果,咱們個人的個個看得出說真的打詐、撤進、坐牢的打詐辦公室所作的藥物和,總共是只有咱這個個個頭頂的屬物。我看,咱改做這個詐騙辦公室好了。也請議事長簡單說明咱這個打詐辦公室的這個業務。"},{"start":7163.807,"end":7184.415,"text":"打詐的業務其實是分散在各個部會包括警政署的刑事警察局包括金管會包括速發部包括通傳會等等大家都通力合作還有法務部相關的檢調單位也都有通力合作在做打詐的這個主詐等等的這個業務"},{"start":7185.595,"end":7187.676,"text":"議員長,我們行政院這個打造辦公室成立多少年了?"},{"start":7211.852,"end":7221.857,"text":"目前大概是成立一年,去年5月30日。你感覺打造辦公室房子的成果好嗎?"},{"start":7223.121,"end":7232.509,"text":"我想確實是還有進步的空間因為主要是因為詐騙的形態日新夜異那詐騙的情況是?國內一份調查有53人對政府的詐騙防治文化意義但過去超過一半的人對政府是不一樣的而去年我們貴姓被詐騙的金額是89億被詐騙金額是89億"},{"start":7251.084,"end":7257.365,"text":"非正義金額達16億,六、貴姓一、四人辛辛苦苦賺到錢,就跟他靠一通電話,跟一通LINE這樣就整個錢就都用去給你偶遇了。你有沒有瞭解到,去用責任就責任期我們這裡責任的一個薪金通貨嗎?再來,當經理責任案,有兩萬三千元,到九年新章到三萬五千元。"},{"start":7280.819,"end":7283.42,"text":"憑憑一段時間就發生事件,我們現在一家在討論就已經有人被詐騙了。所以這是真的非常嚴重的事情。是,跟委員報告,現在其實是這個詐騙真的是國際性的"},{"start":7298.067,"end":7299.168,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":7325.038,"end":7325.939,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":7352.637,"end":7359.505,"text":"我們對這個打詐的這個訪問,我們想可以再經過更加精進的方針,來研究,來要怎麼方針?我知道委員會的就是像現在最常見的詐騙就是投資理財。"},{"start":7368.655,"end":7369.856,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書"},{"start":7386.255,"end":7412.256,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。netesle, Google, 我們現在請他下架這些廣告這些詐騙廣告這些要招募這個股友社會員這些投資的詐騙廣告都是我們都是用勸導的來下架如果有這個專法這些海外這些國際的平台就有義務要配合我們立即的下架"},{"start":7413.977,"end":7414.037,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":7429.209,"end":7431.471,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":7444.52,"end":7445.441,"text":"議員提到主席的部分將對違法投資廣告訂定實名制以及下架機制"},{"start":7463.374,"end":7464.776,"text":"持續收報違規廣告以及案業統整所發現問題,要求網路平台精進內審制度。"},{"start":7479.676,"end":7483.119,"text":"有多少人被詐騙,也沒有具體處分。平台根本也沒有在走。記住,連我們管道,我們管道中的線,他的LINE跟臉書的帳號,也都去用貿易用詐騙去。結果,我們也是要鼓勵這裡,自己再套過其他社群,甚至可以來讓大家不太去用騙人。"},{"start":7505.917,"end":7506.679,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲"},{"start":7512.795,"end":7516.479,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":7537.278,"end":7563.37,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":7563.67,"end":7573.412,"text":"規定凍結書面報告案計10案,那這樣的話萬一裡面有詐騙廣告,我們可以循線的去追查。那這種網路的公司齁,這種網路的公司外匯行的問題,我們今年會議頭頂有什麼方案可以有效來要求這些公司來做這個防詐的協助?因為現在這些國際性的這種網路平台,它的主機也都是設在海外。"},{"start":7589.956,"end":7590.817,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲"},{"start":7609.392,"end":7612.313,"text":"對,這個是關係到我們國民的一個財產安全的部分。對啊,他明顯是詐騙的行為,明顯是詐騙的行為啊。啊,我們還要勸導他,這我們就要用強制執行啊。啊,所以就是要有法源啊。"},{"start":7627.619,"end":7629.06,"text":"對於詐騙網路平台業者的約束目前會推一個專法詐騙防治條例草案"},{"start":7644.929,"end":7662.23,"text":"有提到說今年上半年能送到立法院審查,現在已經四月了。現在四月底了。我們差不多四月底會送來。就是說這禮拜就會上院會,然後院會通過之後就會送到立法院。這禮拜上院會,下禮拜會送到立法院來。"},{"start":7663.852,"end":7667.534,"text":"二、處理12年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":7691.408,"end":7707.278,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":7708.086,"end":7710.648,"text":"秘書長好請問一下您在這個秘書長任內幾年了5年5年很長一段時間了對不對是秘書長工作是做什麼簡單的說明是包括呃呈各部會上來那麼呈給院長的公文那我們會先合約"},{"start":7728.021,"end":7754.378,"text":"那所以各部會包括今天的解凍案各部會都一些說明應該也在行政院會裡面要經過行政院長這樣子的同意然後您再跟各部會來做協調協商對嗎對相關的有授權或者是我們會先審閱過好今天呢您知道嗎您是撞一天做一個做一天的和尚要撞一天鐘您今天行政院的113年度的單位預算解凍報告"},{"start":7755.539,"end":7780.075,"text":"這是在立法院朝野共同要解凍的案子。解凍的金額不多,但是您看你裡面的說明,非常的敷衍。我覺得做一天和尚就要撞一天鐘。你們到底有沒有用心在解決今天招委牌的這個解凍案。從你們的報告跟態度就可以清楚知道。"},{"start":7781.036,"end":7782.658,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":7796.465,"end":7802.546,"text":"三月五號我對陳建仁院長就原住民的原家中心議題我進行了我的總諮詢當時陳院長承諾在520之前會核定計劃而且交辦相關部會必須在三月底把計劃報行政院核查"},{"start":7825.792,"end":7831.794,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":7854.062,"end":7880.88,"text":"他有在去年的11月8號有邀集衛務部隊員員上沒有我講的是3月5號我的總諮詢啊當時院長就已經告訴我的說要在3月底的時候把這個計畫報行政院查核所以我還嘲笑說會不會520之前他說最後一天都會那3月底了原民會已經把修正的計畫書報到社家署了"},{"start":7881.58,"end":7904.917,"text":"對目前原民會是在2月6號跟3月27送到衛福部衛福部目前我的了解是還在研擬中最近應該就會送到還在研擬中啊從我3月5號已經在關心這件事情了而且我提的裡面的內容其實衛福部長也好行政院院長都非常的認同啊這個為什麼流程那麼冗長"},{"start":7906.599,"end":7908.401,"text":"五、二、零之前會合訂計劃。今天幾號了?秘書長。"},{"start":7926.504,"end":7950.121,"text":"對,我想這個問題我們...明天能不能告訴我?可以嗎?還是現在請他們趕快打電話,待會就到我的辦公室裡面來做說明?連這麼一點點小事,而且是凝聚社會共識的問題,你還要拖那麼長,我都很擔心你當交通部部長的時候,您的質詢率會怎樣?好,我們來看一下今天...不用再回應了啦,不要照顧。"},{"start":7951.302,"end":7953.183,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":7975.393,"end":7999.799,"text":"原住民族或者是所有的警察不能夠去投票你們是剝奪了憲法保障他們的投票請問一下今天已經要解凍你們的這個預算了還看不到一個具體的方式請問一下你的具體方式是什麼因為我們現在就是已經送到貴院就是針對全國性的公民投票"},{"start":8000.419,"end":8008.588,"text":"我知道啊。我要問的是你們怎麼樣凝聚社會共識?你們的公聽會是開公聽會還是說明會還是研討會還是問卷調查?如果要舉辦會議請問一年要辦幾場預計在幾年之內可以收集這些語情?如果是問卷調查可以充分收集更年齡層各族群的意見嗎?"},{"start":8021.857,"end":8038.579,"text":"我再更具體的問你就是這樣,不要用這種敷衍的方式,請回答。是,我想我們是期待公民投票如果順利的來推動不在籍投票之後。我知道公民投票嘛,那個時候,之後才要談到這個所謂的不在籍投票,那要幾年?請你告訴我要幾年大概?"},{"start":8039.319,"end":8054.734,"text":"如果順利的推動我覺得後面其他選舉的不在一起投票因為如果是向立委向議員那個票的種類會非常的繁多這個話我們已經聽多了啦在這個委員會也聽多了啦請你告訴我要幾年幾年離開這個秘書長的位置了請問一下到底要幾年"},{"start":8059.497,"end":8060.377,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲"},{"start":8077.085,"end":8093.258,"text":"因午我謝謝你秘書長我很擔心我再講一次我很擔心你任交通部部長的時候你會怎麼樣去執行尤其是我們現在花東地區的交通的問題如果是按照你這樣子因午式回答的話全民會反撲尤其是花蓮地區的族人"},{"start":8094.571,"end":8111.597,"text":"再來我來跟你討論少子化的推動情形。行政院你們這報告裡面這樣說本院已經建立跨部會的運作機制了由上而下整合11個部會的資源而在112到113年主要經濟策略包括"},{"start":8112.077,"end":8133.924,"text":"放寬育兒津貼還有托育補助然後調降托嬰中心的照顧比以及幼兒園私生比放寬政府駐在協助措施的經濟或者是社會弱勢資格擴大幼兒學前特別扣除而適用範疇以及提高額度這是你的這個書面報告以上策略我都給予支持但是有一點我必須要再譴責一下"},{"start":8135.004,"end":8160.778,"text":"我認為政府對於偏鄉原鄉的默示就是我們在制定政策的時候都是以都會區為基準點也都是以都會區的狀況為精進考量從來都沒有把偏鄉跟原住民地區的困境反映在你們的政策上例如我談幾個問題第一個原鄉連一間0到2歲的托育機構都沒有您知道嗎"},{"start":8161.798,"end":8183.79,"text":"然而您知道嗎?原鄉和偏鄉的合格的保姆人數有幾位?是零。我相信主政機關你們都有這些數據的,但是行政院有納入你們的政策考量嗎?還是在行政院眼睛裡面偏鄉和原鄉的隔代教育問題一點都不需要托育的需求,是這樣子嗎?秘書長。"},{"start":8186.136,"end":8191.818,"text":"五二零之前能不能告訴我一個說法今天就要解凍你們的案子了那你任務幾號這個禮拜還是下個禮拜到我辦公室"},{"start":8212.923,"end":8235.246,"text":"這個我們再來安排我在這邊要求您這個禮拜就到我辦公室來好不好展現您的決心那也跟委員報告其實這段時間平均每個已婚的推動這些政策以來平均每個已婚的夫婦生的胎數已經從1個已胎到1.5胎沒有我在跟你講原住民跟偏鄉的問題"},{"start":8237.149,"end":8238.293,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":8245.02,"end":8248.802,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":8273.37,"end":8292.176,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8292.276,"end":8293.297,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。nolds."},{"start":8293.297,"end":8318.411,"text":"我想這個是非常重要的一環。那現在像現在我們已經把像育嬰價本來是只有六成薪。那目前已經提升到可以到八成薪。我知道。那夫婦都可以來。我知道。在你的報告裡面有說我剛剛我在在講的就是我們的產婦的其他的其他的問題。所以也希望你們一邊來討論一下好不好。還有一個問題是新生代不婚不育的原因。特別是不婚。"},{"start":8319.352,"end":8335.238,"text":"我覺得行政院你們應該要跨部會來談點問題離清所有的問題之後然後再針對相關的政策來擬定改善的空間和計畫你認為應該這樣子吧對症下藥是很重要的而不是頭痛醫頭腳痛醫腳而我剛剛提到的這些問題它幾乎都是跨部會的問題所以"},{"start":8344.381,"end":8353.875,"text":"行政院秘書長的工作就很重要你在這5年當中想病您比我更清楚可是如果要我給你打分數的話我覺得這5年來"},{"start":8357.779,"end":8379.689,"text":"我覺得剛剛就幾個案子的解凍案,我覺得還是有待精進。您給您自己的評分是多少?我們不對自己來評分,不過我們有在進步跟努力的空間。你認為是不是應該要再進步?雖然你520之後就要離開這個位置了。"},{"start":8383.05,"end":8385.071,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。nolds."},{"start":8385.071,"end":8392.294,"text":"我希望您不要把這個態度帶到交通部,因為交通部是非常重要的一個部會,而不是跟議事長一樣只是協調的工作。"},{"start":8405.04,"end":8409.786,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲"},{"start":8422.863,"end":8446.954,"text":"對於原住民的問題麻煩這個禮拜到我辦公室跟我說明一下我們剛剛談到的這個0到2歲還有我們這個原住民的這個這個托育的部分托育的環境謝謝好謝謝我們高津詹委的資訊秘書長我們詹委所主席下個禮拜到辦公室做說明好那現在請我們張志倫委員好謝謝"},{"start":8457.918,"end":8464.751,"text":"主席好各位官員各位委員大家早安大家好是不是先有請秘書長好請我們行政院秘書長謝謝"},{"start":8469.619,"end":8496.593,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。netesle,早安。剛剛第一次碰到密書長也得知說密書長即將接任交通部長。在這邊給密書長恭喜。在這邊本席也代表過去在您過去早期擔任台北縣的水利局的局長在蘇貞昌縣長任內因為過去有中和南市角的部分那時候還叫中和市南市角那邊容易淹水那也是當時的蘇貞昌縣長跟"},{"start":8499.754,"end":8516.665,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。netesle,您還有很多在地的議員一起努力來做這個藍四角的一個分紅的動作,讓藍四角不再淹水,所以本席在這邊代表我們中和的鄉親對您這個非常的肯定也感謝,那請密書長請回。那我切心了我們,我們請不當黨產處理委員會的我們主委。您主委,謝謝。"},{"start":8526.265,"end":8532.552,"text":"主委好本席要請問您針對我要幫我們救國團來發聲請問一下救國團被不當黨產委員會認為政黨的附屬組織的原因大概是什麼可以簡單敘述一下"},{"start":8541.826,"end":8552.596,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne三、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne四"},{"start":8567.33,"end":8594.824,"text":"當時被弄成一個像準行政機關這樣子。好,謝謝主委。人事財務業務被國民黨控制的資料我們都在我們的處分書跟調查報告裡面,我想我們都公布在網站上。是,我跟主委報告,因為救國團就我自己本身本席的了解而言,它是具有公益性、教育性以及服務性的一個公益的一個法人的一個身份。那很多,也是過去很多人的一個這個從小到大的一個回憶的一個地方。"},{"start":8595.484,"end":8598.225,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。nolds."},{"start":8621.451,"end":8648.212,"text":"做這一些的這個公益的活動那我想要針就很多大法官針對這個黨產會做出的一些建議來請教這個主委因為許多大法官比如說張瓊文大法官有提出這個認為你們黨產會有過度限制這個一些一些組織的財產權而且這個讓有一些違物的一些情形那我請教一下"},{"start":8649.313,"end":8662.186,"text":"就針對張全仁大法官所提出這個我們已經過度限制成為負稅組織而是對財產的使用處分權有做限制這點你要怎麼回應請問委員這個有什麼具體的哪個個案"},{"start":8664.869,"end":8686.707,"text":"大法官這邊寫得非常清楚那我再跟您報告齁這樣詹森文大法官也有提出齁一般來講已經有脫離政黨控制後時有擁有執政當取得財產應該非屬黨產條例所預處理的課題而且不能被推定為不當取得所以顧名思義就像本席剛剛跟你講的過去早期當然會有一些這個黨"},{"start":8689.266,"end":8696.191,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度"},{"start":8717.677,"end":8719.118,"text":"政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案"},{"start":8733.59,"end":8741.635,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne四"},{"start":8752.602,"end":8753.724,"text":"當時從政府拿到的財物通通交回來了沒有所以我們現在追究其實這一塊"},{"start":8768.439,"end":8770.84,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書"},{"start":8796.815,"end":8798.776,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":8812.366,"end":8837.919,"text":"好,謝謝主委的分享所以本席就是希望說你這邊當常常委員會要應該讓救國團順利繼續推動它相關的業務尤其剛剛本席有跟你報告就它是公益性、教育性以及服務性的那本席當然有詢問過救國團裡面的相關的長官那就希望說未來還是繼續推動救國團的部分而且就像主委剛剛講的其實它已經有一些明確可以區分"},{"start":8838.639,"end":8841.32,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":8854.406,"end":8855.367,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":8879.645,"end":8896.161,"text":"按照這個黨產條例的規定我們確實是沒有落入條款我剛才在說但是我們委員有任期啦至於要不要再繼續我想這個是政策考量我們就尊重包括立法院包括行政院這邊的規劃那相關的 請你們可以自行提出來啊"},{"start":8896.761,"end":8898.843,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":8917.123,"end":8920.585,"text":"處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。nolds."},{"start":8920.585,"end":8922.946,"text":"處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。nolds."},{"start":8922.946,"end":8926.447,"text":"處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。nolds."},{"start":8935.438,"end":8949.053,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。netesle,您現在的職權就是負責跟這些組織來打官司?我們是鼓勵機關,所以我們的業務,包括調查內容可能不方便在這邊跟委員報告。但是可以看到很明顯的就是我們有大批的訴訟,包括一個婦聯會案,光是附隨組織案,就拖了6年。"},{"start":8952.296,"end":8954.038,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":8967.335,"end":8994.642,"text":"好最後因為時間的關係老師要請教主委就您針對凍結案今天的這個解釋就去年而言你貴委員會動用預算的稅數的部分只用了八成可是今年113年112年只用了八成那113年居然你們的所編的這個稅數的預算還比去年還多那請問一下到底你們是要做什麼事情"},{"start":8996.343,"end":9022.103,"text":"我想相關的預算書裡面都有清楚的說明,我們就是按照那些...因為只用了八成,為什麼今年的預算還要再增加?我們沒有特別去增加,它那個就是因為桶山桶邊的金額而已。譬如說...去年只用了八成都用不完了,為什麼今年要再增加預算?有沒有一個簡單的說明?我們沒有去要求增加預算,我再說明,我們沒有。覺得金額是有提高嗎?"},{"start":9023.024,"end":9024.505,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。��"},{"start":9049.864,"end":9051.224,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":9087.194,"end":9113.46,"text":"謝謝我們請不當黨產處理委員會來林主委好請我們林主委謝謝所以這個很多委員都在問我們這個是任務型的編組那也面對非常多的訴訟那現在我們這個任務型的編組面對這麼多的訴訟如果沒有訴訟這個任務型的編組還有沒有其他的功能"},{"start":9113.905,"end":9137.086,"text":"我們現在就在監管所有的負稅組織的目前的財務因為他如果一天不收回國有那我們就怕他的財產會流失所以這個委員會的成立就是從過去威權黨國不分的時代到現在民主我們必須要把國家的資源"},{"start":9137.967,"end":9155.665,"text":"是真正國家的包含國家的不凍產等等的都要看管住這個委員會的功能但是我一點要提醒所有的這一些我們不當黨產處理委員會的這一些訴訟的費用這個是來自哪裡訴訟的費用當然來自預算"},{"start":9160.089,"end":9182.215,"text":"對那這些訴訟的費用訴訟的對象就是這些可能是過去黨國不分的這些黨的組織目前還在運作的那所以編列的預算越多訴訟的程度越多就是代表這個黨跟這個國之間的訴訟永遠都沒有結束的一天所以必須要不當這個黨產管理委員會繼續的來這樣做這樣的執行那"},{"start":9188.456,"end":9195.626,"text":"其實在國家不管是縣市政府或中央政府面對很多跟私人公司之間的這些訴訟都有一個問題"},{"start":9196.752,"end":9224.313,"text":"就是我們公部門的這個律師的費用遠遠不及私人公司民間單位的這個費用有沒有這個問題當然那所以其實我個人我會支持不當黨產處理委員會對於律師編列的費用我們必須要更加的支持而不是只依照原定的標準那有什麼方式可以更加的來支持來"},{"start":9224.933,"end":9225.153,"text":"請行政院秘書長。"},{"start":9245.754,"end":9274.136,"text":"秘書長今天行政院預算解凍審查有兩個非常重要的議題就是有關於租金跟少子化的這兩個議題租金其實也牽涉到社宅也牽涉到相關的這些少子化等等剛剛秘書長講到一點很重要的其實也是目前必須要去做的就是有關縣市政府的區段徵收或者是重劃區"},{"start":9275.217,"end":9300.012,"text":"要籌設3%到5%來作為設宅的空間目前已經入法了嗎?他現在這個部分是內政部在目前是用內政部在審議各縣市報上來的區段徵收的新案那在審議的時候附帶要求那就是直轄市5%那一般的縣市是所以我們對於過去已經審議通過的沒有辦法入法嗎?"},{"start":9304.408,"end":9322.935,"text":"過去已經審議通過有請內政部評估他現階段是先用協商的方式那目前的了解是協商不出來其實我們在縣市政府待過我們知道其實這個區管徵收跟重劃其實是地方政府很重要的財源之一"},{"start":9323.755,"end":9339.105,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲,一讓他提出來,就是說各縣市提3到5%我們會算成本嘛,我們當時核定他的成本,然後我們用那個成本來跟他買買看"},{"start":9339.565,"end":9363.834,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲,另外一點其實就是這個其實現在住都中心他蓋的速度有經過行政院的整合其實像我們的左營跟南梓就有非常有好幾個這個社會住宅他其實是經過行政院協調不管是國防部或者是其他國產署的這些土地"},{"start":9365.015,"end":9385.934,"text":"來經過縣市政府這邊很積極的跟住入中心這邊合作來蓋是高雄的這個社宅的比在六都裡面或者是在全國裡面蓋社宅的這個比例是最快的數量是最多的那高雄的戶數最多社宅比例最多"},{"start":9386.499,"end":9415.888,"text":"那是不是在未來高雄如果有確認徵收或者是重劃送到內政部的時候那內政部應該也要給予呃比如說你我們我們現在要明定要3到5%那這個就應該是3%啊啊像那種其他的縣市社宅比例明顯少戶數明顯比六都少啊這就要給5%甚至更多啊所以我這邊這邊是想要就是在呃民主黨在轉任齁那個部長之前"},{"start":9416.648,"end":9439.319,"text":"給行政院相關的單位的這個建議當然我要趁這個機會在內政委員會可以跟未來的部長來做一個幾個男子跟左營很重要的交通建設的一些說明其實我知道陳其邁市長常常打電話給你"},{"start":9441.121,"end":9467.122,"text":"打完總統打院長打完院長之後再打給秘書長有關男子交流道引道還有捷運直線還有台鐵立體化還有台鐵未來班次的加密都是未來秘書長在交通部要面對的很重要的高雄交通的課題那我從男子交流道引道來講好了過去目前"},{"start":9469.168,"end":9497.367,"text":"從台南到高雄的這個國道1號它的負荷量已經非常大從過去城台南高雄的交通時程可能是40分鐘現在都是超過一個小時那所以未來這個台南的台積電園區到高雄這個現在的這個男子產業園區還會增加大量的這些運輸的這些車輛所以我們必須要爭取男子交流道引道"},{"start":9498.127,"end":9517.489,"text":"這一條引道也經過秘書長的協調已經在國發會審議完畢接下來會進行相關的規劃保險預算的編列等等的那這一些都是未來部長要做的事情那高雄市政府這邊我也會全力的來協助協調配合"},{"start":9518.77,"end":9518.931,"text":"二、處理1案。"},{"start":9536.514,"end":9537.335,"text":"三、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":9552.472,"end":9573.364,"text":"未來的這個整個高雄北段的這些半導體園區還有整個高雄的交通的樞紐其實很需要行政院以及交通部的支持所以在未來這個現在的秘書長李部長以後也對於南直交流道引道那捷運紫線還有未來南直的"},{"start":9574.745,"end":9601.273,"text":"也就是現在的到左營台鐵到左營左營以北到楠梓到橋頭這一段要解決大量的交通問題這個交流道這個鐵路的立體化還有立體化之後鐵路的加密跟台北不一樣的是台北幾乎是10分鐘一般區間車高雄是30分鐘才一般區間車這個我們未來都要朝這個加密的方向來努力謝謝"},{"start":9605.356,"end":9609.058,"text":"李博裕委員主席行政院理秘書長"},{"start":9633.965,"end":9637.291,"text":"五二零之後要就任交通部長"},{"start":9642.878,"end":9665.127,"text":"那對於您我們也很一段時間沒見面但是我一向對您是非常敬重您這個學有專精而且有為有守非常的認真負責謝謝謝謝委員對那今天因為我們這個有解凍案行政院的這個解凍案他8個案8個案合在一起"},{"start":9666.124,"end":9666.444,"text":"凍結書面報告案計"},{"start":9696.665,"end":9697.827,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書"},{"start":9710.412,"end":9736.862,"text":"關系文書的報1663頁是講到警察的不在籍投票這是他們的公民權當初凍結的時候第10屆的委員是希望行政院能夠檢討加速的推動警察行使選舉罷免創制複決的基本權利但是我們在解凍報告裡面看到我們就"},{"start":9737.922,"end":9751.978,"text":"獅眼的說可以你就在你所在戶籍所在地的縣市同一個區域同一個選區你就讓他不在籍投票但是我們的警察大家都知道流動性是全台灣在流動的"},{"start":9752.699,"end":9755.201,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":9768.914,"end":9784.755,"text":"則是關於接避者保護法的部分。這個也是攸關於我們政府的連門本席也要特別肯定您這邊行政院秘書長過去也有含釋就是我們自己行政單位內部還是要鼓勵他們勇於接避"},{"start":9786.337,"end":9809.932,"text":"但是呢我們最終還是要有接避者保護法那有關民間企業有各種的弊端各種的弊案像我們的食安如果不是有些內部接避我們可能很多這個黑心的食品全國民眾都持續的吃當然還有各方面包括我們金融單位各方面的所以這個接避者保護法"},{"start":9810.672,"end":9838.371,"text":"本席看到從109年行政院就在研擬到今年113年都還送不到立法院我想4年是總統一任的任期總統一任任期竟然我們一個接壁者保護法沒有辦法送來立法院這點就非常非常誇張那這裡面到底是什麼原因那這一次送來當然裡面也有一些等一下本席利用一些時間再跟您請教"},{"start":9839.452,"end":9861.456,"text":"再來我們看到關西文書報166頁針對國家氣候變遷調試行動計劃當初提案凍結的理由是擔心現行的機制是否足夠而且要避免跌床駕屋而且這個案雖然整個8案裡面才凍結100萬但是光是這個行動計劃"},{"start":9864.457,"end":9866.058,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":9887.575,"end":9902.57,"text":"政府也有有新租金補貼的部分但是當初凍結的原因也是因為第10屆的委員覺得現在有很多租屋的黑市如何改善黑市"},{"start":9905.512,"end":9930.845,"text":"來凍結希望我們行政院能夠針對這些內容來回覆但是答非所問就講說有掌握有效租賃40萬筆那超過租屋市場的4成也包含納入包租業者實價登錄其實這些跟黑市沒有關也不在黑市的範圍那重點要改善黑市的部分很大的問題現在租屋市場"},{"start":9931.485,"end":9931.725,"text":"報告案有關行政院預算"},{"start":9950.828,"end":9953.07,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲"},{"start":9969.241,"end":9990.486,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":9991.006,"end":10010.6,"text":"這個珠湖黑市的部分我們希望可以還是一定要正視這個問題然後來解決秘書長您只需要回覆是不是可以是我想委員所提的確實都是目前我們所面臨的期待解決的問題那我們我想我們可能答得不夠完整"},{"start":10011.34,"end":10017.381,"text":"那有一些都答非所問不是不管答非所問那其實還有很多因為我時間不夠我就前面前面從第一頁看到這個前面五頁八頁我就覺得這個每一項都蠻有問題的好所以這個豬市場這一塊再來本席就是有關氣候變遷確實現在常常降大雨"},{"start":10033.785,"end":10060.72,"text":"我們又有這麼多的這個行動計畫這個費用這麼多怎麼樣不會跌床駕屋所以我們希望行政院絕對不要這個我們錢啊就隨便花或是中央政府你做你的民眾受苦民眾繼續受苦這一塊是我們要避免的好那再來就是有關好我現在拉回來第一題這個保障警察的這個公民權的部分是"},{"start":10061.22,"end":10063.545,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。netesle"},{"start":10077.107,"end":10099.821,"text":"公務員報告我先報告租屋市場那個部分就是我想徹底解決租屋市場應該就是政府的設宅的供給還有包租代管包到也是類似設宅的供給如果能夠超過一定的比例我想就可以把整個租屋市場的價格行情對啊但是設宅說要到一定比例那不知道還有多久"},{"start":10100.802,"end":10102.564,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":10116.277,"end":10117.158,"text":"總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":10139.358,"end":10160.261,"text":"有關接避者保護法為什麼4年都送不來立法院甚至連行政院目前好像都還沒審查審查完畢這是什麼原因呢這裡面有什麼貓膩對不對接避者保護法我們就希望政府連人我們希望民間企業也要打擊這些弊端可是為什麼4年都沒有辦法"},{"start":10161.697,"end":10183.531,"text":"最近法務部在今年的3月又送進來,把調整的法,那我知道羅政委已經開過好幾次的會議,那他現在正在徵詢,正在跟一些學者專家還有法界的人士做徵詢,我想應該已經快告一段落。我們行政院預計什麼時候送來?一定要等新政府上任再送是不是?"},{"start":10184.141,"end":10188.103,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。netesle"},{"start":10213.089,"end":10214.671,"text":"總預算案有關行政委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案"},{"start":10237.481,"end":10254.439,"text":"市委員好市委員好我想請教秘書長4月3號7.2級的大地震之後重創了台灣很多的地方所以18日行政院表示跟各單位確認之後再後重建的這個復興及紓困的振興總經費預計要投入200億元"},{"start":10258.683,"end":10276.737,"text":"陳院長19日在接受媒體訪問的時候也說要編列200億元的特別預算還特別強調不需要等到特別條例過,中央各部會就可以結合地方全力的協助救災請問秘書長,行政院何時要將特別條例財案送到立法院審查?"},{"start":10278.138,"end":10288.683,"text":"目前我們是打算就是說他現在不用等不用用特別條例啦他可能用追加減預算的方式就把這個200億甚至可能220億左右的這個經費送到貴院來"},{"start":10293.825,"end":10322.268,"text":"如果來得及應該是這一兩個禮拜就會提報但是有一些緊急救助的還有一些相關的一些措施不用等到預算現在是各單位以緩計及或者是用相關的基金先行處理所以說民主黨的意思是說不需要特別條例這樣的意思嗎可是院長講的不是這樣我們目前有請主計總處在研擬就是說如果不用特別條例是不是用追加減"},{"start":10323.83,"end":10324.551,"text":"凍結書面報告案計2案。Reporter 陳議員說陳議員說陳議員說陳議員說陳議員說陳議員說陳議員說陳議員說"},{"start":10352.353,"end":10352.774,"text":"獎金必須協助災區重建。"},{"start":10370.897,"end":10378.762,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。Reporter 審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Interviewer"},{"start":10397.635,"end":10415.095,"text":"公認為支配、受支配地方政府緊急及其他重大事項所需的淨費。經主管機關報請行政院核定之後,就可以通知受分配地方政府納入預算。所以請問秘書長有沒有讓地方政府申請緊急及其他重大事項所需的淨費?"},{"start":10416.536,"end":10442.392,"text":"像平常的各縣市政府如果遇到災害那麼他會搶災跟災害復建就是都用這個特別統籌款那另外還包括像各地方政府如果遇到傳染病的房子比如說南部之前有一些登革熱的問題那這些也都是用特統再來致應所以平常就有受理地方政府的這個申請"},{"start":10443.453,"end":10465.391,"text":"我們還是希望說針對這個部分就算是特別預算也應該要專節開支不可以腐爛的編列當然然後另外再請教您就是在這一次解凍的預算中第9幕涉及的是行政院打詐經濟的措施問題但是目前就是詐騙的問題也越來越嚴重甚至還爆發出行政院長提名的NCC委員蕭其鴻他違反選轉門條例在卸任後就當詐騙集團的門神所以"},{"start":10471.175,"end":10493.614,"text":"行政院長在提名之前難道都不針對提名人選做考核的嗎那蕭綺蓮整個的提名程序是由行政院提名當時也應該是名單任秘書長帶領大家來立法院拜會各黨團的嗎所以這個是人民一黨一手推薦的人現在出了問題負責任要負責提名的行政院是不是也該負責任"},{"start":10494.935,"end":10505.981,"text":"那投票同意的民進黨團是不是也要負責任所以本席建議這次的解凍案不予解凍因為行政院這樣亂提NCC的委員人選我們覺得這樣是不適當的"},{"start":10507.64,"end":10522.825,"text":"我想消委員這樣的個人的行為目前我們也請相關的司法單位檢調單位在了解那麼如果有不法等等的情況就會依法來移送或是辦理那這個部分確實是"},{"start":10525.166,"end":10552.948,"text":"在提名的在當時任委員的時候也都有經過一些相關的資料跟相關的查核那當時可能沒有發現他在卸任之後會有這樣的一個行為那這個部分我們表達也要檢討改進行政院一定要檢討那另外就是有關那我接下來謝謝民主黨我算是不是請那個不當黨產委員會的林峰正主委"},{"start":10557.731,"end":10586.449,"text":"主委您剛剛在會前接受媒體的訪問的時候表示說國政基金會並沒有被認為是國民黨的覆水組織但是如果他沒有被認定為是國民黨的覆水組織為什麼國政基金會會被查封為什麼我們一些這個公部門的這個這個案子呢國政基金會都被封鎖甚至捐款呢也因為大家害怕被打查水表而不敢捐款"},{"start":10586.869,"end":10602.159,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":10602.219,"end":10603.46,"text":"議員會議中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":10625.715,"end":10640.266,"text":"打垮最大在野黨就能長久執政所以執政黨產會就是執政黨追殺國民黨的筷子手所以您主委您剛在媒體之前說這些大言不慚的風涼話覺得非常非常的可恥"},{"start":10645.652,"end":10657.685,"text":"國政基金會確實沒有經過我們認定為國民黨的附隨組織,所以依法我們不可以去監管它。至於說國政基金會為什麼收不到外界的捐款?"},{"start":10658.886,"end":10670.411,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。breviation of National Government of the National Government of the National Government of the National Government"},{"start":10684.176,"end":10708.093,"text":"黨產會的追殺還是受及既往喔尤其是我們一些國民黨的黨營事業都被你們認定為是不當的黨產所以打壓國民黨都判決決定因為這個司法的這個都是用你們說實在的司法現在都是聽這個民進黨這個黨產會的所以我們每一次都是只能透過行政救濟跟政府打官司可是到現在為止說實在"},{"start":10710.069,"end":10712.371,"text":"答案有關行政委委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案"},{"start":10728.706,"end":10744.978,"text":"我想這個是現在我們看到就是這樣的狀況所以我希望這個黨產會不要再用這種政治追殺的方式來去追殺議題然後目的就是為了要讓這個這個執政黨能夠長久的執政下去好謝謝徐宇峻委員再來我們請吳啟明交委謝謝"},{"start":10761.63,"end":10765.252,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":10780.111,"end":10805.452,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":10805.772,"end":10816.179,"text":"二、處理114年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。breviation of the Personal Data Protection Act."},{"start":10830.649,"end":10852.26,"text":"各自的保護這一定要趕快的上路不然你這個打詐這個問題就沒辦法那麼快速的去處理去解決是不是請秘書長來說明在114年的8月才掛牌成立那這樣時間是不是會拖了很長"},{"start":10853.6,"end":10875.456,"text":"跟委員報告雖然他目前是籌備處的形態但是目前籌備處他就可以執行相關的一些業務所以對於部會的協調督導或者甚至相關的一些行政的處理他都目前就可以執行不用等到正式掛牌"},{"start":10875.896,"end":10892.756,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10892.756,"end":10909.087,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":10909.281,"end":10924.39,"text":"委員報告就是剛剛在講到打詐的這部分的話目前進階段因為涉及到有關於各自外洩的這個議題那行政院本來就在現行就已經有一個有關於個人資料保護執行的聯繫的會議那我們現在是這個會議的幕僚機關"},{"start":10928.112,"end":10942.119,"text":"候有這樣一個平台我們會整合現有中央目的事業主管機關在進行歸管非公務機關個人資料保護業務的這部分我們會透過這個平台來繼續加強督導那另外剛剛"},{"start":10943.28,"end":10962.666,"text":"委員會再質詢到現有的人數89人是預算員額目前就是有關人事總處是跟我們先說36人先給我們今年先去做發展的一個現有的人數但是未來會繼續依照我們業務的開展"},{"start":10963.826,"end":10966.529,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":10988.829,"end":10996.976,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2、處理113年度"},{"start":11016.034,"end":11016.054,"text":"議員會議結束"},{"start":11020.862,"end":11022.862,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":11048.968,"end":11071.518,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 proporto6、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。ympto6、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。ympto7、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。ympto8、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。ympto9、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。ympto10、審查113年度中央政府"},{"start":11073.619,"end":11087.229,"text":"兩岸是不是有快速道路的規劃也就是板龍快速道路那我想這個部分已經開始著手在做可行性的規劃那我們希望能夠盡速的來推動讓往來龍潭這個樹林山峽還有土城到板橋這邊的民眾"},{"start":11096.036,"end":11096.056,"text":"候議員議員議員"},{"start":11108.547,"end":11131.737,"text":"因為當初在總執行包括行政院包括交通部部長他們的引落是吐存到三小為優先階段那是不是因為你要有優先階段你後面才能推動到大西龍潭是不是能照當初行政院長他們的考量來配合推動"},{"start":11134.758,"end":11137.179,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲"},{"start":11165.347,"end":11189.736,"text":"來,謝謝主席,麻煩有請秘書長。請,委員好。秘書長好,今天行政院預算的結論報告裡面提到有關於追悼者保護法的事情。我看了報告,我必須要說,我非常震驚。追悼者保護法,民進黨政府從2017年,從2017年,私改國事會議做成結論說要定,"},{"start":11194.093,"end":11212.496,"text":"定到今天我在院會質詢院長的時候他告訴我還在研議結果你們今天交出來的報告你們今天交出來的報告是秘書長你覺得在行政院院長卸任以前崔少哲保護法的報告提的出來嗎?"},{"start":11214.565,"end":11232.191,"text":"我的了解是他在今年的3月4號有再送到院我知道,我們不斷的在審查啦有的問題5月19號之前提的出來嗎?我想我們朝這個方向來努力但是但是有困難是不是?你有困難就說有困難嘛"},{"start":11233.7,"end":11255.277,"text":"有沒有困難?呃我的了解是羅政委還在持續的呃溝通跟我再問你說考量公部門制度較完善清廉度要求較高為了尊重公司治理政策定調為公部門先行私部門採取行政指導請問這個政策何時定調由誰定調"},{"start":11258.194,"end":11285.969,"text":"目前我的了解是他的法案的內容是以公部門的接避者保護作為主頭你不用跟我講今天你們提了書面報告到內政委員會來嘛行政院提這個報告就要負責嘛說政策定調是公部門先行私部門再看看用行政指導這個政策何時定調由誰定調這是我的問題請回答"},{"start":11287.438,"end":11316.588,"text":"我的了解是目前法務部提出來就是這個內容那至於這個協商的過程我可能還要再進一步的了解今天行政院提給立法院的報告做了這麼重大的政策宣示到底是由誰定調何時定調這件事非常非常重要為什麼重要施改國事會議的結論崔少哲保護法的部分是公司部門都要定還是只要定公部門就好了"},{"start":11317.935,"end":11346.623,"text":"是公司部門都要訂還是只要訂公部門就好了我們的瞭解當時大家的期待是希望公司部門都能夠有配照品那不是大家的期待啦那是思改國室會議的結論啦第二個行政院提出來的聯合國反貪腐公約第二次國家報告裡面報告的內容說要訂的是公司部門要一起訂還是可以只訂公部門這報告是你們行政院寫的啊"},{"start":11348.561,"end":11360.709,"text":"你們在國家報告裡面敢這樣寫結果今天送到內政委員會來的報告政策方向180度大轉彎欸誰有這麼大的權限無視施改國是會議決議的內容誰有這麼大的權限"},{"start":11369.025,"end":11397.264,"text":"把國家反貪腐公約的國家報告最新的國家報告直接丟到垃圾桶所以我們現在只要訂公部門不要訂私部門所以我才問你嘛所以我才問你嘛到底是誰做的決定什麼時候做這個決定憑什麼做這個決定並不是私部門就不受監管或是不入法但是這是一個循序漸進的過程因為當初拖了半天所有的行政官員"},{"start":11398.586,"end":11410.147,"text":"給唐賽的理由是私部門要定範圍要弄多大是不是限於上市櫃的公司問題很複雜大家還在討論"},{"start":11412.189,"end":11431.294,"text":"結果沒有跟社會報告沒有跟社會溝通推翻撕改國事會議決議的內容把自己聯合國反貪腐公約的國家報告丟到垃圾桶做這樣的政策宣示出來所以我才要問嘛誰做的政策決定誰要負責憑什麼做這個決定"},{"start":11435.267,"end":11443.037,"text":"您回去了解清楚了以後請行政院正式發一個新聞稿跟全體國人解釋可以嗎?"},{"start":11444.537,"end":11470.459,"text":"我想這個部分就是他並不是把私部門排除在外而是這是一個循序漸進的立法的過程公部門先行那如果順...你們上面不是寫嗎對政策定調你們現在就是要做公部門嘛我講白話我就是私部門的沒有在吹哨子保護法的範圍內嘛我有說錯嗎對但是未來不排除會把私部門加進來我跟你講啦未來的事情就不要再講了啦"},{"start":11471.806,"end":11476.609,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。我接下來要請教你就是說有一個很皮的人叫張剛偉"},{"start":11501.46,"end":11529.133,"text":"因為你接下來要接交通部部長了嘛我直接先跟你檢舉我為什麼說他很皮2019年遠東航空無意警停飛被交通部廢證了當初張剛維啊政商關係很好找了一團人想要幫他來去解套看可不可以不要廢證然後呢"},{"start":11531.178,"end":11552.751,"text":"還去找了廖燦昌來幫他喬貸款現在廖燦昌炸彈的事情因為遠東航空的事情被起訴囉張剛維自己偷空遠航的事情也被起訴囉然後我們從檢察官2020年7月的起訴書才發現有人檢舉張剛維後台很硬啊原來是真的啊"},{"start":11558.68,"end":11584.62,"text":"除了找廖燦昌以外後面還找了當初行政院的副院長林錫耀檢察官有跟監喔起訴書裡面的內容指證歷例指證歷例張剛維是仗誰的事啊行政院副院長幫他出面找廖燦昌搞炸彈"},{"start":11586.209,"end":11607.808,"text":"然後什麼然後是遠航被廢證了以後現在很皮阿我今天就是要跟準交通部部長檢舉阿他很皮阿雙山機場遠航的總部阿賴著不拆賴著不拆還讓我們的交通部阿去申請強制執行秘書長這件事情你有沒有掌握"},{"start":11610.475,"end":11631.762,"text":"這個部分我大概也是從包括相關的文件跟媒體的報導有所瞭解你全部都是從媒體瞭解的目前的那如果就任之後我會再進一步的深入瞭解不過我知道這個案子整個是在張崗偉沒有跟你提過這件事整個是在司法的審查的階段張崗偉沒有跟你提過這件事沒有你認識張崗偉嗎我認識這個人你認識這個人是"},{"start":11637.287,"end":11658.686,"text":"他找你見面的時候都沒有講這件事?沒有是沒有見面還是有見面沒有講這件事說清楚有一次我在一個朋友的聚餐裡面知道有這個人的存在只有在這個時候知道這個人的存在?是真的嗎?是真的嗎?嗯"},{"start":11659.386,"end":11685.123,"text":"我現在給你機會講清楚喔因為現在我們的國會制度不夠齊全啦在國會說謊是沒有關係啦隨便亂講都沒有關係不用負責任啦所以我們現在才在推國會改革嘛未來在國會的時候說謊就有責任喔這一題我請秘書長回去回想想清楚喔你上任交通部部長的時候我一定會問"},{"start":11686.244,"end":11703.179,"text":"我一定會問今天我先把光入了鋪好了是請你回去回想清楚張剛維這個人在行政院到底是借誰的事可以嗎可以好謝謝好謝謝黃國昌委員再來請麥玉珍委員質詢謝謝"},{"start":11718.745,"end":11745.152,"text":"謝謝主席。我們有請行政院秘書長。好,秘書長好。想要請教一下對於吹消者保護法的推進。我們聽到社會各界都支持立法的聲音很久了。請問行政院的態度是什麼?"},{"start":11749.232,"end":11766.688,"text":"吹哨的保護法我們是來保護這個相關的檢舉檢舉人他的權益他不至於受到相關的一些處分我想這個部分我們是支持覺得這是一個進步的社會所應該有的一個法令"},{"start":11768.259,"end":11772.901,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":11787.747,"end":11815.3,"text":"總統曾經說過立法院因為太多黨的聲音所以呢變成修法的阻礙但是吹嘯者保護法的我們的三黨派都在上一個會期各自有提出版本且我們都有共識要通過請問我們行政院版新的法案版本到底何時可以提交"},{"start":11815.94,"end":11821.227,"text":"是否認同這種將責任推卸給立法院的做法?"},{"start":11822.609,"end":11842.5,"text":"我想行政院絕對沒有把責任推卸給立法院但是到現在還沒有看到你們新的法案的版本目前就是因為各界大家對這個法案還有很多的意見所以法務部目前在今年的3月把相關的法的草案送到院裡面來那院裡面正有法務的政委在做相關的審查"},{"start":11849.403,"end":11874.248,"text":"來也在徵詢各界的意見那如果一旦法案成熟也比較周延就會送到貴院經過行政院議員會之後就會送到貴院你可以保證會送過來嗎?因為你要卸任因為現在你說的有效的嗎?目前還在徵詢的階段那如果法案比較周延我想完整也成熟就會來送到貴院來"},{"start":11876.332,"end":11878.033,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案"},{"start":11906.552,"end":11930.894,"text":"相關的要求好本席前日在內政部委員會有質詢就有問過我國不只是平均地權條例民眾對各界的政府大多數的檢舉機制還有就是都必須實名制現在連黃牛要檢舉都要實名制"},{"start":11931.855,"end":11936.918,"text":"所以很多案件內容都涉及利益非常的龐大現在我們這樣的機制真的能保護我們的檢舉的人嗎?並且有達到鼓勵檢舉的目的嗎?"},{"start":11950.512,"end":11979.02,"text":"目前這樣的機制就是讓檢舉人他的工作權益他不會受到他的被檢舉的上級或者是被檢舉的主管有所這個在行政上的一個對他的施壓或者迫害我想目前這些法條確實都有這些相關的規定但是也還在怎麼樣可以讓他更周延也不至於被腐爛的這個使用我想這個部分還在做相關的徵詢"},{"start":11980.26,"end":11985.167,"text":"﹑一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":11996.101,"end":12011.681,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12012.061,"end":12014.203,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":12033.241,"end":12044.349,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。netes, 行政院中部聯合服務中心副執行長被報出在任職經濟部所屬的雜糧發展基金會當任執行長的時候,涉嫌虛報公帑"},{"start":12055.437,"end":12066.947,"text":"後面就把這個款就繳回了竟然還可以繼續當任這個職務真的太離譜了關於就是官員從事違法活動後的處置問題目前看到的很多案都是高高就提起就輕輕放下來就當作就是我們官員貪汙還是一樣可以繼續來去任職"},{"start":12084.682,"end":12100.04,"text":"要還了不當的得利還這否就是不用再追嚴其他的責任我們行政院如何追嚴更深層的責任以嚴防未來類似這樣子的腐敗發生"},{"start":12103.007,"end":12125.104,"text":"像這個部分陳景倫先生已經我們有要求他把相關的議領的差旅費都已經繳回繳回就是還可以繼續擔任還是省官那另外也已經把他的證件相關的這個這個市政都移送地檢署那麼正在做相關的查證有沒有犯罪或貪賭的這個這個問題也沒有停職也沒有留職查"},{"start":12129.875,"end":12134.218,"text":"那這個如果查證屬實我想後續就會對於職務上來做處置如果只是說我們的官員和公務人員都那個涉嫌貪污的話我們必須要遠景還有用那個程序我們的證據要確定後因為大家都花很多時間來去查所以然而我們的公眾對於這個程序就是那個具體的步驟"},{"start":12159.037,"end":12180.624,"text":"都沒有透明所以我們希望呢我們這些都是要我們民眾非常的關切的所以我們希望我們的政府要公正要透明讓更多人可以看得到但是我們政府卻一拖再拖這樣子的議題希望我們能夠正視這個問題可以嗎?如何確保我們的程序還有透明化"},{"start":12188.857,"end":12191.299,"text":"是,我想這個部分確實是相關政府部門的相關的核銷或是經費的請領他除了主會計另外還有政風那事後還會有審計單位是的,因為大家都在忙這個但是呢,我們是繳回後還是可以繼續認指"},{"start":12208.892,"end":12232.479,"text":"如果是沒有發現的話他不會繳回嘛。繳回還可以任職。現在還在查還在任職還要繼續當官。所以說我們就覺得是不夠透明也不夠再去嚴查了。希望我們行政院這邊要有一個機制還有把我們一個月內把這個透明化還有這個表格要可以給我們。可以齁?是。好,謝謝。"},{"start":12234.773,"end":12239.335,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲"},{"start":12263.757,"end":12267.44,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":12275.538,"end":12278.299,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":12303.53,"end":12318.144,"text":"本席也曾經去發聲去期望我們行政院能夠開啟事宜考量整個體育署升格的一個可能性那這個其實有很多委員還有很多運動員們大家共同的一個期待而後成立整個體育運動發展部"},{"start":12319.906,"end":12335.828,"text":"總統總統總統"},{"start":12335.948,"end":12345.518,"text":"道也不是說只是改個名字也不像國民黨上個禮拜那樣子說要求教育部表態支不支持能夠馬上生出一個組織裡面來過去整個體育署曾經是體委會然後後來馬政府時代了變三級的體育署"},{"start":12355.988,"end":12375.552,"text":"那部是一個政策制定執行的一個縱向的一個機關那你整個委員會來講的話又是整個政策協調的一個統合的一個橫向的一個機關再把時間走你再去把它往前推的話你說在民國21年的時候啊教育部以前設體育會62年的時候呢多了一個體育部裡面的一個體育師到86年的時候啊"},{"start":12382.654,"end":12409.851,"text":"那你行政院體委會去掛牌那在102年教育部體育署成立到今天都一直在教育部的一個架構底下那去推行各種組織的改造以及各種體育運動事務的一個推行放到現在來看的話我倒覺得說就比較不適合現在的一個體育運動發展的一個狀況所以將體育運動當成一個產業來做一個推動的話我相信變成大家的一個共識那準總統520"},{"start":12411.712,"end":12413.393,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":12428.78,"end":12429.361,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":12444.483,"end":12450.49,"text":"第三個就是回復過去的體委會,這個比較不可能啦,因為你都有準總統的一個政見,這個機率應該是最低。但成立一個新的部會又涉及到整體的組織的部會數目跟總原額法。"},{"start":12460.981,"end":12461.762,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":12480.594,"end":12490.442,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne三、�"},{"start":12500.229,"end":12514.582,"text":"這都不是不會是一個月裡面就有辦法去弄出來的東西但是也要去聆聽社會各界共同的一個心聲那以不得未接來作為運動事務的一個統籌模式看起來是世界的一個趨勢但是這個整個體育事務最重要還是主事者他的決策跟組織文化"},{"start":12523.93,"end":12524.17,"text":"議員會提供答案"},{"start":12550.051,"end":12552.993,"text":"主管單位的評估的這個提出方案所以我"},{"start":12566.523,"end":12566.743,"text":"議員會議主席議員會議主席"},{"start":12585.788,"end":12598.251,"text":"因為這個准交通部長當然要去接受別的挑戰我們都認為以你的資歷、以你的能力那處處有餘啦但問題是這幾十幾天內新人大家都一直要求體育部你要是還必輸定嘛你還是有這個統合我倒覺得說這二十幾天也不能就方廢掉啦我們期待啦因為你到520你知道存一鍋的時間而已"},{"start":12609.514,"end":12639.514,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":12639.874,"end":12641.935,"text":"總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲"},{"start":12655.322,"end":12656.884,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲"},{"start":12673.302,"end":12692.773,"text":"對。對。"},{"start":12693.013,"end":12716.046,"text":"這個是各界大家都很期盼一個更強的體育的組織來推動這個運動運動的這個選手的照顧跟運動的這個體育賽事的這個推動是啊因為你你你不是總部主你是召集百家你是召集百部而已啊所以你們還是議題啊你這個還是要做一個起頭吧好不好而且這個是大家共同的榮譽好好這樣加油謝謝好謝謝我們專家兵委員的資訊謝謝"},{"start":12723.223,"end":12728.224,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":12749.448,"end":12751.591,"text":"來主席謝謝麻煩請我們李孟彥秘書長。好請李孟彥秘書長。"},{"start":12759.66,"end":12780.565,"text":"秘書長剛剛順著委員的質詢因為本席在2021年就特別倡議有講說一定要體育署要有運動發展部為什麼因為運動發展部四大目標跟方向第一人才的培育第二國際的交流第三產業的發展以及第四樂活壯年的永續"},{"start":12781.545,"end":12796.919,"text":"這一點是全民從8歲到88歲我相信都可以用運動發展部這邊來含括但是賴清德準總統也好或是侯友宜總統候選人其實在選舉期間都有提出相關的政見都是要體育署升格為運動發展部"},{"start":12798.2,"end":12810.225,"text":"那我想確認一下1月13號到現在4月22號了,中間也快三個月過去,那到底我們行政院或者是相關的一個部會有沒有去討論運動發展部的人事預算組織架構怎麼樣來調整?有沒有啟動這樣的討論?"},{"start":12815.317,"end":12841.847,"text":"呃我的了解是有人事總處他有在呃評估這些方案那不過還沒有呃有找相關部會來討論嗎呃目前我的了解還沒有正式的會議還沒有正式的會議但是他們都還是輪流都還是輪在人事總處內部的溝通而已甚至也沒有政委或是說像秘書長這邊召集各部會來討論嗯是不是正式會議還沒有正式會議還沒有相關的研擬方案有在啟動"},{"start":12843.047,"end":12866.794,"text":"所以這就是為什麼我們會期待秘書長這樣的高度因為這個是準總統的一個政見這也是過去不分藍綠草野大家共同倡議的一個方向我們也認為說運動發展部如果真的能夠成立的話這對於台灣的一個國力來講或者說對於我們國際接軌人才交流人才培育都有很重要的方向所以秘書長"},{"start":12867.534,"end":12887.142,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":12889.606,"end":12915.107,"text":"一個月內可以嗎?但是至少也讓國人能夠了解如果說你們要做的話到底是要怎麼做或是說預算原額預計要多少?預算總是要出來公務部門要人要錢嘛就兩件事嘛有人才能做事有錢才能做事公務部門就是那麼簡單"},{"start":12916.872,"end":12937.749,"text":"一個月內有沒有辦法?我想一個月內我們會有建議方案包括請任總這邊提出來包括土地總部會給新的內閣做最後的拍板本時不逼你啦因為這也確實啦520上任之後我們一定會持續追但是至少你一個月內內部一定要有討論的方案出來能夠來做後續的一個處理"},{"start":12938.71,"end":12945.193,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。netesi,這也是陳建仁院長在去年12月26號到本席的選區林口。"},{"start":12962.261,"end":12984.787,"text":"道有做105世道的第一期工程計劃的動工典禮的時候他特別提到第二期的工程計劃他很重視他也覺得說一定要做事在必行那本席也說了新北市政府有跟內政部這邊要求這個生活圈計劃內政部也說回報也已經同意並且送到行政院了我請教"},{"start":12985.467,"end":13006.918,"text":"最後這29天有沒有辦法能夠趕快核准下來,讓地方能夠期待早日工程動工?目前他這個計畫是由內政部這邊來……內政部說已經,他們已經,他們也覺得可以,他們也覺得說這個是勢在必行,應該要推動,所以說他們說已經公文往上送了。"},{"start":13009.003,"end":13010.304,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":13024.167,"end":13024.747,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":13046.881,"end":13071.37,"text":"因為他這一筆下去可能內政部的生活圈的額度就大概少掉非常大的比例那我們之前也提到是說能不能用專案的一個方式那不一定是說要吃內政部的這個生活圈因為他6年計畫內政部一直推說6年計畫他要分年編列我們也講說我們不要一次編列分年編列也可以那即便是內政部6年的生活圈計畫到期相信還會再有後續的延伸計畫嘛"},{"start":13072.15,"end":13097.539,"text":"不管是新生活圈計畫不管是生活圈計畫2.0這也是過去民進黨政府最喜歡做的啊我們會期待他比照淡北快速道路以專案的方式那另外有一些比較小的機會就回歸原來的計畫但是其他就是用專案不占原額度您剛有講到說會找主席總處跟內政部這邊來開會本席也特別拜託所以什麼時間你會來召集"},{"start":13099.737,"end":13101.118,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":13127.657,"end":13156.435,"text":"秘書長這邊兩個禮拜內召集相關部會並且告訴地方民眾告訴新北市政府到底我們內政部的第二期1054到第二期的計畫補助什麼時候可以達成這樣可以嗎我想這條路確實是可以紓解包括五股交流道林口交流道的這個壓力那讓他可以跟62銜接我想這個他有他的非常重要的價值我們會來支持"},{"start":13156.715,"end":13167.371,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲,謝謝。您會支持,所以我希望您真的在任期裡面29天可以趕快達成。未來啦,未來啊,就會到2011跟您見面了啦。"},{"start":13168.648,"end":13186.232,"text":"交通委員會在對面所以未來本市也一定會督促也一定會要求我知道您是水利專家交通或者是觀光相對來講可能沒有那麼熟悉但是您願意用開放的態度來聽大家對你有期待那我們希望就事論事專業理性的來討論謝謝"},{"start":13188.951,"end":13215.043,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":13222.785,"end":13229.987,"text":"主席,各位委員,有請秘書長,還有負責掃紙擬畫的哪個處。行政院今天的報告,恭喜到隔壁,下文部。"},{"start":13247.166,"end":13257.572,"text":"少子擬化對策報告提到本院已建立跨部會運作機制是怎樣的運作機制業務單位要不要說明一下現在是由林鄭委員召開11個部會的平台會議"},{"start":13274.058,"end":13297.257,"text":"事實上我執行過衛福部很多次應該在行政院要成立掃紙擬化辦公室而不是在衛福部成立應該是在行政院要成立掃紙擬化辦公室因為掃紙擬化非常非常的嚴重是不是國安問題?秘書長"},{"start":13299.804,"end":13301.646,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。stanbul"},{"start":13313.666,"end":13342.621,"text":"我們看這個人口數的話95年是20萬4千4百多到去年112年是13萬5千多真的是溜滑梯嚴重嚴重所以這樣的一個既然是一個非常嚴重的國安問題但是行政院卻沒有一個少子女化辦公室你可以"},{"start":13345.182,"end":13354.465,"text":"教育部教文處教育部教文處教育部教文處教育部教育部教育部教育部"},{"start":13371.966,"end":13397.154,"text":"教育部的報告也是連我們兩歲的社專班都受的很少我也質詢過教育部兩歲的專班很具體的時間的關係因為那個還有我們的我也要去搭高鐵了廣設完善的拖音中心"},{"start":13398.387,"end":13404.93,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央"},{"start":13424.718,"end":13432.486,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。netesle"},{"start":13448.007,"end":13474.664,"text":"你要具體的提出建議我也是公務員我是30年公務員我常常會提出具體的建議我舉一個例子我當中央人民會副主委的時候我提出什麼呢租屋補助我在人民會的時候提出租屋補助受到當時叫行政院經建會"},{"start":13476.226,"end":13479.589,"text":"競建會副主委競建會副主委競建會副主委競建會副主委競建會副主委競建會副主委競建會副主委競建會"},{"start":13505.48,"end":13534.423,"text":"實施3年之後內政部認為這個政策不錯不能只有原住民應該全部不分族群都要有租屋補助是這樣來的所以公務人員很重要你要做詳細的分析說明建議好我就擠一個過去的例子剛才是擠了一個例子我過去我們就擠不是我"},{"start":13535.626,"end":13564.56,"text":"不是我的例子是大家的例子民國57年中華民國政府開始實施9年國教對不對本來是6年的國教義務教育推行9年國教民國57年喔第一個財政沒有現在再那麼好非常的拮据那時候還是要反攻大陸的年代啊"},{"start":13566.662,"end":13587.667,"text":"國防為主為優先啊但是為了教育當時的政府推行9年國教不只是經費的問題啊連教室都沒有啊對不對要新建教室要花多少錢啊免費要讓這些國小畢業全部都可以念國中"},{"start":13593.444,"end":13620.1,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。 Minne四、"},{"start":13623.3,"end":13645.174,"text":"以上,謝謝好,謝謝我們鄭天才委員的執行,謝謝好,謝謝好,登記花園的委員除不在場之外,其已經與花園完畢執行結束委員王美惠所提書面執行列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":13646.488,"end":13652.594,"text":"市面執行及未達付部分請相關單位一周內以市面達付並付資本會。"},{"start":13658.303,"end":13673.575,"text":"現在進行討論事項審查113年度中央政府總預算有關行政院預算解凍案有2案。司政法治業務預算凍結100萬書面報告及新聞傳播業務預算凍結50萬請各位委員是否同意動之?"},{"start":13686.783,"end":13709.598,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。閱讀審查113年度"},{"start":13711.104,"end":13722.79,"text":"那我們行政院的法案現在我們還討論還有一個事項就是不當黨產不當黨產的預算在113年度中央總預算有關不當黨產委員會預算凍結案有兩案不當黨產處理委員會單位的預算預算凍結100萬的書面報告及一般的行政預算凍結100萬書面報告"},{"start":13740.839,"end":13743.161,"text":"請行政院及不當黨產委員會與委員有意見的大家協商一下。"},{"start":13764.505,"end":13769.809,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2"},{"start":14313.727,"end":14318.171,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":14336.86,"end":14350.632,"text":"第1、第2經理定期在處理大家有沒有意見?沒有意見那我們就散會本日會議到此結束現在散會"}]}},{"id":"15834","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15834","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd2af675131898e73316e636471cd401be3be8d109af184be43ca2b58ecd2e1a025ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於國家運輸安全調查委員會預算凍結案計6案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-22","start_time":"2024-04-22T08:30:18+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-8"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-04-22T11:54:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":12222,"委員發言時間":"08:30:18 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林沛翔委員劉浩委員劉浩委員快頭比較大"},{"start":2200.28,"end":2226.896,"text":"介紹我們在場的官員國家運輸安全調查委員會林信得主任委員請坐葉明山副主任委員請坐張王煌委員請坐李延年委員請坐陳建世委員請坐姚承安主任秘書請坐"},{"start":2228.223,"end":2256.844,"text":"林佩達執行長航空調查組劉東明組長請坐,謝謝輸水罩水路局局長組長齁水路調查組鐵道調查組吳吉村組長請坐公路調查組曾仁松組長請坐運輸安全組鄭永安組長"},{"start":2258.536,"end":2285.482,"text":"請坐。運輸公安組莊理章組長請坐。人事是黃素蘭主任請坐。政務是康熙平主任請坐。主計是孫淑信主任請坐。運輸是楊一文主任請坐。行政組計處公務預算處邱碧珠專門委員請坐。"},{"start":2289.264,"end":2304.577,"text":"本月進行國家運輸安全調查委員會業務報告及審查113年度中央政府總預算關於國家運輸安全調查委員會預算凍結案計6案。請林主委報告。"},{"start":2324.426,"end":2345.464,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生大家好今天非常榮幸列席貴委員會向主席及各位委員報告運安會的業務重點請各位委員不吝給指導與建議本會執掌重大運輸事故之調查調查範圍涵蓋航空、水路、鐵道及公路其透過系統性的調查"},{"start":2347.025,"end":2372.768,"text":"反者發覺事故之可能遭因及安全風險提出改善建議以防止類似事件再次發生。相關業務重點分數如下第一重大運輸事故的調查業務一、重大運輸事故調查進度本會自108.81號成立期間運輸事故立案調查共280件254件已經結案相關調查結果願意發布於本會的官方另外有26件"},{"start":2374.689,"end":2393.065,"text":"一、預期犧牲根據的調查中．各調查模組的統計分別說明如下。關於航空．我們成立迄今．最後的事故通報有100件．立案16件．已經結案13件．共發布33項安全改善建議．三有3件的調查中．水路"},{"start":2394.431,"end":2423.208,"text":"通報有957件．其中立案調查213件．已經結案203件．共發布243項的安全改善建議．上有10項的在調查中。光復山鐵道事故通報有2849件．調查案立案的有29件．目前已經結案的26件．共發布207項安全改善建議．上有3項在調查中。"},{"start":2424.386,"end":2431.531,"text":"關於公路事故通報計有287件立案22件結案12件共發布142項的安全改善協議上有10件在調查中"},{"start":2438.359,"end":2465.001,"text":"二、積極媒體關注的重大運輸事故瓜吾一、凍結的列車轟熱公園站撞擊醫護事故。這個案子我們預計在今年的5月會完成最終報告。瓜吾二、台鐵列車離角站陣線出軌事故。這個案子預計在今年的10月發佈事實調查報告。明年的8月完成最終調查報告。瓜吾三、竹塘鄉公所右通專用車路口交叉撞事故。"},{"start":2466.502,"end":2488.856,"text":"這個議題在今年的7月發布事實資料報告明年5月完成最終調查報告。瓜武市小客車國一往北大亞路段追撞工程仿傳車的事故這個議題在今年的7月發布事實資料報告明年5月完成最終報告。瓜武湘橋的校車信義快速道路往北文山隧道的發生事故"},{"start":2489.816,"end":2512.767,"text":"一例在今年的9月發布事實資料報告明年的9月完成最終調查報告關五、封滿悠覽車高雄仁武水管路撞擊國道的航路事故預計在今年11月發布事實資料報告明年9月完成最終報告現在報告業務重點一、持續提升航空水路、鐵道及公路的事故調查能量"},{"start":2514.085,"end":2531.957,"text":"為提升本會調查能量．本會藉由參訪觀謀、研討會議．辦理訓練及專題演講方式等．持續建立事故的調查能量。相關資料請參閱。在工程能量建置方面導入高精度所持式雷射掃描系統及動態定位的"},{"start":2533.438,"end":2548.105,"text":"測量掃描設備,投入運具殘骸的掃描作業,以力完成重要政務的數位保持作業,完成臺中、高雄兩個主要港區的三維立體視覺數位建模,有助於未來重大水中事故調查的運用。"},{"start":2549.125,"end":2559.932,"text":"二、強化與國際運輸安全組織交流及調查人員訓練本委派員參與國際運輸調查專業訓練課程以技術研討會議以精進調查人員專業技術包括參與澳洲及美國鐵道脫軌調查分析訓練、亞洲事故調查工程技術論壇、華國執政計畫動機事故調查研討會、國際大陸協會聯會等訓練與會議等等另外參加世界非安高中聯會以及參訪華國民航事故調查局進行交流合作"},{"start":2579.281,"end":2595.969,"text":"派言協助日本運輸安全委員會解讀今年日航與田機場跑道入侵撞擊事故的損害記錄器．以報告民航事故調查局及澳洲運輸安全委員會簽署合作意向書．並派言參加今年國際運輸安全所長聯會．及鐵道事故調查國際論壇．以加強與國際運輸安全組織之交流。三、舉辦2023年運輸安全資訊交流研討會．"},{"start":2608.408,"end":2616.054,"text":"為提升運輸安全與經濟事故調查專業技術委員會每年都舉辦運輸安全資訊交流研討會。針對運輸安全重要議題,邀請場觀學各界進行分享與研討。去年12月19號舉辦是運輸安全"},{"start":2624.915,"end":2649.13,"text":"自信交流委員會以水路安全為主題．包含船舶交通服務作業與管理．以水源作業管理．港口國船舶檢查等三項重大議題．共計國內水路運輸相關單位競擺的與會．其藉由本委員會提供自信交流平台．共同努力提升我國水路運輸安全績效。．四、運輸安全支援報告系統的建置與運作．"},{"start":2650.612,"end":2674.027,"text":"本會去年共計接獲航空、水路、鐵道及公路資源報告93則,經篩選國內外具分享價值的案例,編撰並發行8期的運輸安全資源報告系統專刊。今年其4頁中已接獲35則報告並發行4期專刊,其發行三項支持前車之間的功能,達成似乎一環的效益。五、執行科技計劃"},{"start":2675.558,"end":2701.141,"text":"本會自109年起原提4年起的建立多模組運輸事故調查流量計畫．已經在7年底順利完整並結案。至今年起依據本會三大科技施政目標及未來運輸趨勢發展．更新原提未來4年起建立我國新型運劇事故調查技術與安全研究計畫。三大研究項目包括原理新型運劇事故調查技術與國際交流"},{"start":2703.61,"end":2718.269,"text":"強化運輸事務調查工程能量、經濟運輸事務調查能力能量等。六、運輸安全改善建議追蹤與列管本會自非安會時代以來,迄今共發布1694項的運輸安全改善建議"},{"start":2720.987,"end":2748.576,"text":"完成改善結案的計1546項是以148項各機關構仍在積極改善中其中航空部會以交通部民航局以國安部空氣司令部較多主要為機場跑道設施以超級級載具活動團體督導之安全改善水路部會以交通部航港局港務公司輪位部醫院署較多主要為醫水管理船舶交通服務系統"},{"start":2750.195,"end":2776.343,"text":"遺傳作業安全是安全改善。田道部會以台鐵局最多,主要為施工安全管理,列車維修檢查,列車運轉調度,比較到安全防護之安全改善。公路部會以交通部最多,其次為交通部公路局,主要為遊覽車,國道科技列,以載運衛生物品車輛之安全改善。三、預期施設的成效、績效。"},{"start":2777.455,"end":2805.4,"text":"第一,藉由重大運輸事故調查．發覺根源噪音．嚴提各項運輸安全改善建議．協助各機關完成分項執行計畫．與預防類似事故再發生．有效提升我國運輸安全．二,藉由強化國際合作交流．激起各國的調查及安全觀念．技術、制度等的優點．應用未來稀釋．激起的因據．發生重大運輸事故調查作為．所需命名的挑戰"},{"start":2806.826,"end":2818.261,"text":"三、持續透過國內外調查技術及專業訓練,增進事務調查人員之調查技術及工程建立分析能量,並強化安全趨勢與預防性安全研究技術。"},{"start":2821.867,"end":2848.881,"text":"決議不愧將彼此獨立公正專業的精神辦理重大海陸空運輸事故調查作業同時謹記實時精進專業與預防重疑治療之積極行動防範事故與未然確保我運輸安全水準能與時俊俊感謝委員崩榮聆聽及其各位對本會會務與支持共同為提升台灣海陸空運輸安全持續努力謝謝那個主委等一下喔"},{"start":2851.857,"end":2865.805,"text":"你這個重大運輸事故調查,通報了我們用航空,用這個鐵道來講2849件,你只立案調查29件,其他的跑哪裡去?這個是從開始,我是不是請我們鐵道組?其他的不見了"},{"start":2876.562,"end":2884.385,"text":"通報的部分我們因為鼓勵營運機關擴大通報,所以即使不是重大運輸事故,鐵道事故調查的範圍我們也都鼓勵營運機關通報"},{"start":2900.422,"end":2927.425,"text":"這不是支援報告系統,通報的部分是每天向台鐵公司不是鐵道啊,水路航空都一樣啊是這個部分我們其實都是擴大通報,就是希望營運機關能夠報給我們主要的目的是避免漏報的行為另外我問你,比如說水路好了我們台馬直行脫泊艇在基隆基隆碼頭被脫泊艇撞了撞了以後勒"},{"start":2930.721,"end":2943.954,"text":"問托柏林公司,他說我只是擦到他的皮,問題人家受傷骨頭都壯斷了,還說只摸到他的皮,你們也沒去調查,這裡面沒看到報告?不是陸主任"},{"start":2945.086,"end":2971.397,"text":"水陸委員因為這個碰撞的話是屬於如果是很嚴重的碰撞沉默人員死亡那我們一定會立案調查那如果是碰撞的盡量你們一定要調查什麼盡量死亡跟沉默一定要調查死亡沉默才調查但是碰撞的話在我們人力我們船被碰了以後停在馬路停了一個月廠商要罰兩千多萬"},{"start":2973.994,"end":2986.99,"text":"這不是水路,你認為這交通警察要去處理喔?不對吧?這個我們去了解你這個報告我沒看到啊這個我們會去了解不是去了解啊,我舉1反3還有200件還沒放進來的吧?"},{"start":2991.183,"end":3003.531,"text":"只要報進來的話,我們都審慎去檢查是不是要立案調查不是你們應該要有通報嘛,難道沒有通報你們嗎?所以你這個通報系統可能會...這個案子是沒有受到通報,我們會去了解為什麼...如果沒有一定傷亡的話,就是對生理生理財產案子造成重大影響,那運安會認為有調查必要才會調查"},{"start":3014.371,"end":3028.761,"text":"認為沒有辦法調查必須不要調查?什麼擦狀都要去做國安或是運安會的調查?是的這樣找交通警察來就可以了嗎?稍微他們要調查,你們不要調查?一定要調查的啊?"},{"start":3035.489,"end":3054.878,"text":"藝術事故有一個中央藝術事故範圍調查的定義,並不是說現在分成兩個層級,一個是他有被通報現在脫不得你說我只查到你的皮,那傳公司講說我的骨頭受傷、我的心臟受損、我的肺被穿了一個洞,那都不是他的事"},{"start":3056.198,"end":3084.011,"text":"事過境遷以後公說公有理、婆說婆有理在那邊扯這個有一點點是路上比如說摩托車跟汽車擦窗海上啦這個他們兩個在這邊查,這個我們也不會調查你已經提出來你就帶回去對,但是我們會回去瞭解喔我們會去瞭解到底這件事好不好,專門做報告啦是是是好啦,我不再問了,請回所以請回"},{"start":3085.621,"end":3104.62,"text":"你們請回吧,因為我怕你們吃案你知道嗎?不會啦請回吧,好現在凍結還沒報啊?凍結還沒報啊?沒有沒有,結婚口的報告還沒報好不好來"},{"start":3106.298,"end":3120.065,"text":"我簡單的報告一下那個凍結的6個案子第一個案有關委員請本會說明113年度派遣出國計畫的經費合理部分因為過去的疫情的影響所以國外訓練跟國際會議都沒有開辦"},{"start":3122.686,"end":3150.794,"text":"一起解放之後各國的國際會議跟國外訓練陸續展開相關會因為物價調整大幅增加然後另外這個出國人員的出差日誌會也調高所以113年度的預算杯類是增加的但是我們會兼顧這個准決預算相關會用大幅增加前後我們會拙減訓練人數跟跟會訓練的這個提示所以這個是要為了達成我們調查能量的目的所以這個請各位支持"},{"start":3151.634,"end":3173.256,"text":"有關第1案委員要求本會針對年度安全改善建議系統部分本會我們在今年的3月28號已經有發布支運輸安全改善建議的評估報告納入安全議題航空的部分安全議題是超新型載具的飛行安全水務的部分是飲水作業管理"},{"start":3174.077,"end":3197.595,"text":"傳播交通服務系統作業管理以及漁業的作業安全。鐵道部分是台鐵組織與管理陣線火災的事故事故安全管理、平潮島管理等等公路則是遊覽車跟公路、汽車、客運業、行車的安全還有衛生品、物品的運輸安全以國道碰撞、仿撞車事故的問題等等那麼有關第三項是"},{"start":3199.249,"end":3209.609,"text":"委員請我們檢討公務運輸事故調查後來的門檻調整那剛剛已經說過我們在去年的12月26號已經邀請大院的交通委員會各委員會的辦公室"},{"start":3210.919,"end":3239.577,"text":"還有這個專家學者行政部門地方政府的我們有召開一個重大運輸事故的延長修正會議那事實上我們召開這個會議之前我們內部已經開過兩次的這個會選會那之後我們也開了五次的會議那在今年的4月16號我們已經擬定重大運輸事故後委的修正草案的出稿那我們朝兩個方向一個是調整啟動這個調查門檻另外是擴大調查範圍的修訂那目前正在進行法治作業中"},{"start":3241.598,"end":3268.639,"text":"那麼有關這個社會大眾所關切的AIDAS所謂先進駕駛補助系統這一部分那麼我們在去年的1133已經啟動我們已經立案調查這個小客車在國道1號北上大雅路段的發生追撞攻城防撞車的事故那另外後面還有5件類似的我們也並安在調查所以總的來講我們會履歷經事故根本也能做出系統性的一個分析跟檢討"},{"start":3271.82,"end":3280.173,"text":"第四個案子有關委員前本會提出運輸安全事務調查所需的分析能量及國家運安工程研究中心的這個部分"},{"start":3282.335,"end":3301.388,"text":"我們在109年到12年有掩體科技計畫所謂的建立多模組運輸事故調查能量的計畫那113年到116年會掩體今後的第二個四年就是建立我國新型運劇事故調查技術安全的研究計畫"},{"start":3302.813,"end":3317.643,"text":"那麼全世界的整個研究領域的成果、研發成果,我們已經都有可以支援,譬如說本會議事務調查手續,像騰龍的遊覽車事故,像太魯閣的列車事故,還有多起的重大水路事故等等。"},{"start":3319.201,"end":3333.541,"text":"國家應當工程研究中心的這一部分剛好我們的那個大樓的工程總隊117人也要搬遷消防署119人也要搬遷那麼這個案子因為整個營建物價的上漲"},{"start":3334.602,"end":3334.702,"text":"第5案"},{"start":3359.11,"end":3373.053,"text":"委員請我們改善調查案的辦理時程運輸紀錄器運輸紀錄器的解錄率以及改善計劃的結案率等等部分我們已經將調查人力跟時程做管控改善"},{"start":3374.113,"end":3388.687,"text":"譬如說在113年4月19日的為止我們調查入口案件共有26案那其中是3個暫期案那暫決率佔大概11.5%那這個暫決率跟110年的12月比起來是很明顯的改善"},{"start":3390.148,"end":3416.711,"text":"另外提到列車的解讀率我們今年的2月有建築新北捷運跟輕軌的紀錄器所以這個解讀率已經到了98%那麼1基114我們可以達到100%的解讀率那水路的紀錄器的解讀能量目前是92%我們依據今年底可以達到100%那有關這個安全改善計劃的這個改善結案的結案率"},{"start":3417.881,"end":3420.124,"text":"112年12月底到113年4月中水路改善結案率從62.1%增加到74.5%公路由67.3%增加到74.9%"},{"start":3434.094,"end":3459.648,"text":"那公路從75.1%增加到81%航空程98.6%增加到99.4%所以水路、鐵道、公路的改善決定率都已經大幅提升那最後一案有關委員請我們嚴禮加強法制作業的部分本會在去年的9月27日已經制定鐵道事務調查作業有關政務管理的處理程序那麼這個整理完之後我們可以避免相關機構"},{"start":3461.729,"end":3461.889,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3475.72,"end":3501.852,"text":"所以,我們已經積極辦理運輸事故的大作為,發掘事故的遭遇,提出改善建議,希望能夠避免劣勢事件再發生。所以以上大院決議事項,我們都已經交響辦理,而且提出事變資料。可請各位委員支持、同意、動視相關經會,那必利我們的業務的相關推動。謝謝。好,謝謝主任委員。現在進行詢答,先宣告以下事項。詢答時間,初期委員5分鐘。"},{"start":3507.868,"end":3529.873,"text":"畢竟委員4分鐘,委員發言登記10點30分截止。各委員如果有提案請在10點鐘以前提出,以便議事員會審。暫定10點30分休息10分鐘,中午原則上不休息。現在請登記第一位委員李崑澤召委發言。"},{"start":3535.697,"end":3550.061,"text":"好,謝謝陳雪生召委,請一下林主委林主委請林主委好,我記得你以前有擔任過民航局的副局長嗎?是"},{"start":3553.223,"end":3567.402,"text":"林主委我們剛才昭偉有提到相關的這些重大意外事故的相關的調查的定義跟範圍其實這個很明確的因為當初的運輸事故調查法就是我訂的"},{"start":3568.243,"end":3589.182,"text":"那這個運輸調查法他相關的定義跟範疇是由運安會相關的執法另外去制定這些範圍那當然他的定義非常簡單他的範圍就是死亡3人以上或者是死亡跟受傷有10人以上或者是他的受傷有15人以上"},{"start":3590.34,"end":3591.101,"text":"二、審查委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":3610.168,"end":3610.448,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3628.942,"end":3657.598,"text":"再做調整一下就是說我們應該是針對系統性或者是風險性來做一個檢討相關的所謂的這一種重大運輸事故的這樣一個範圍這個我是認為讓運安會來做思考以後的一個重點那我們今天討論的重點當然是在於運安會有三大職者第一個職者就是要強化自己的事故調查的一個量能"},{"start":3658.527,"end":3677.123,"text":"第二是對於我們的交通重大運輸事故要提出改善的建議第三要去監督落實這些改善建議能夠真正完整的一個改善那現在我們看到運安會成立"},{"start":3678.864,"end":3705.893,"text":"2019年8月1日到今年的4月運安會總共發布了改善建議總共是607項航空類33項水路類235項鐵道類202項公路類137項但是我們的這個改善建議其實我認為有一個問題就是說我們改善建議的這樣的一個分類的類型主要是以受建議的單位"},{"start":3707.293,"end":3724.974,"text":"以及處理的狀態來作為一個分類類型的一個基本的原則但是我認為我們以2022年0528就是第177車次竹南站的重大鐵道事故為例"},{"start":3726.374,"end":3726.514,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3741.161,"end":3768.124,"text":"人員類、機械類都有他的必須要改善的一個項目像制度類我們的檢查項目規章的一個修改負責人的制度等等或者是說人員類的人員培訓的部分或是機械類的閘瓦機鐵他那邊受損告警系統等等都有出現相關的問題那這些運安會必須來做一個基本的調整主委讓你說明一下"},{"start":3769.988,"end":3795.846,"text":"委員執教確實沒有錯我們原來是比較被動是針對被改善建議的一個針對那個單位來做的那事實上我們在去年建議之後我們已經在準備要做一個所謂的動態統計儀表班我們已經準備在設計了因為這個設計坦白講有一點需要經費所以我們也在逐步在往這個方向推"},{"start":3796.246,"end":3817.398,"text":"因為我們對於相關分類的類型這個改善建議是交通意外事故改善交通安全一個改善落實的重要的基礎資料我認為說我們應安會對於這些分類的對於改善建議要進一步的分類就是說針對類型我們要提出統計"},{"start":3820.76,"end":3849.519,"text":"那才能有效去統計出相同或是類似的問題那進一步提出系統性的一個改善的建議當然內容也應該要即時公開我認為我們這個改善建議要對社會大眾來即時的公開來顯示並且而且要顯示改善的狀況希望能夠資訊透明才能夠有效的改善這些交通的安全那"},{"start":3851.021,"end":3867.724,"text":"我認為我們的這個多項改善建議沒有去改善這個應該要跟各個單位去加強溝通我看看我們2023年運輸安全改善建議的評估報告那改善建議的結案率"},{"start":3869.468,"end":3884.457,"text":"其實都不是很好我認為還是有三至四層的改善建議沒有完成例如水路類或是鐵道類都有三至四層改善沒有完成那運安會如果去督促"},{"start":3885.558,"end":3912.107,"text":"相關單位來進行改善也是一個重要的工作來主委讓你說明一下怎麼去加強多數改善這個委員的指教真的是對的我們有跟各個單位有近期在召開所謂安全工作的協調會那安全資訊的分享我們在這個會裡面會把我們統計室跟各單位講說你這個哪裡有問題你需要我協助或者是你哪裡做不到我們幫你去協調交通部的相關單位那"},{"start":3913.578,"end":3939.487,"text":"坦白講這樣做的做法上是有進步的譬如說過去4年喔過去4年的水路世界調查案件喔從109年到112年從56件60件甚至到112件去年已經減少到23件它成效已經出來不過我們還要繼續努力確實是這樣子主委你的重要責任就是要強化事故調查的量能而且還要提出改善建議更重要要去督促啊"},{"start":3940.247,"end":3956.819,"text":"這些改善的落實都是重要責任好不好謝謝,謝謝委員,謝謝好,謝謝啦,謝謝李昆哲召委下一位請,林國成委員發言主委請"},{"start":3973.11,"end":3991.075,"text":"委員好,主委,我們大家都知道啦,我們前身是徽安會嘛,對,所以把它改為應安會,把公路等等這些全部把它歸納下來,把它扣邊。"},{"start":3992.987,"end":4003.142,"text":"可是我看到我兩個疑問第一個剛才主席在講的像這類的東西我去發現到你們這些專業人員頭都很硬"},{"start":4006.566,"end":4027.48,"text":"主席都已經發現這個問題你們就有必要去了解就沒有必要去切到底有沒有必要去調查所以這類的東西我是覺得過去我們在一般的這些交通事故委員會如果有質疑到最後"},{"start":4029.361,"end":4041.51,"text":"還是我們這些這個這個運安會去做最後的決定因為你們是專業你們專業那我是覺得第一個我要請教主委的"},{"start":4044.391,"end":4062.01,"text":"從非安會到現在的應安會你認為執行起來對於業務的自愛燃省以及所有花生的這些種種的無法協調我要請教主委你的看法"},{"start":4063.027,"end":4091.084,"text":"事實上我們在進步中一開始的時候從黑暗會到陰暗會到鐵道水路公路有一些案件確實是就如同剛剛委員講的有一些薄無地帶後來我們就依法剛剛講在運輸事故的調查範圍裡面去把它律定那事實上這個律定只是一個原則如果對人民身邊財產安全社會有關注那我們就會用另外一個辦法我們會啟動它"},{"start":4093.686,"end":4121.603,"text":"主委另外現在接下來比較敏感的一個問題第一個我覺得我們貴單位啊聘僱人員占了80%所以我在這個部分我就覺得非常奇怪為什麼我們的僱員這麼多那我們正式的人員只有20位其他都是聘僱人員"},{"start":4122.557,"end":4148.183,"text":"那這個部分在整個我們運安會的執行的部分會不會產生公務人員當然比較嚴謹但是聘僱人員他受了業務之委託那不是他不嚴謹而是疏忽的程度會比較高那我們運安會啊是非常嚴謹的"},{"start":4149.727,"end":4149.927,"text":"主委"},{"start":4164.031,"end":4189.596,"text":"我們因為不說航空啦齁航空你你調查航空事務的時候這些調查官他本身要有航務機務甚至有captain機師甚至有相關的航管人員的經驗等等那不同的專業要來調查一個這麼複雜的航空事務的時候我們所聘用的人"},{"start":4190.536,"end":4190.596,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4207.319,"end":4227.197,"text":"委員這裡寫聘僱其實我們是聘用啦齁那這些聘用人員他為什麼會稅稅稍微高是因為他專業那他在調查過程中他需要協調事業目的事業機關來跟他一起工作的時候好我知道來這個這個這個聘僱人員最主要是專業任用啦"},{"start":4228.778,"end":4248.739,"text":"專業任用啦但是在這個部分我為什麼本席要提醒主委要去注意這些事我剛才不是說專業聘用不是不好而是你要為財是用所以這個部分一定主委你要去把關另外一個就比較敏感一點"},{"start":4250.602,"end":4270.41,"text":"過去應安會是內鬥的非常厲害主委你上來以後有沒有改善我那個已經都改善了而且已經事情不會再發生了可是我看他們你在講話都沒有注意看你啊有啊有嗎有啊有啊有嗎所以我在想是這樣啦我是覺得我們這個是專業單位的專業"},{"start":4273.971,"end":4299.482,"text":"所以我相信大家水準層次都很高可是在這個部分我們過去所報導所看到的確確實實內鬥很嚴重所以主委我要拜託你不要讓人家既然內鬥他就不會專心去做調查所以這點你要去把他做湯口啦做湯口要把他做得好一點所以這個"},{"start":4300.903,"end":4317.038,"text":"最後一個我這裡一個數據也就是你們的結案率剛剛你有報告當然被凍結的原因是因為是因為你們的結案率不佳"},{"start":4317.859,"end":4330.132,"text":"可是我看到我們徽安的部分結案率是很高的喔可是在海陸方面的結案率就不高所以這個部分就代表什麼"},{"start":4331.192,"end":4354.727,"text":"主委你還是要去加強在這整個為什麼非安就代表我們現在這個組織裡面非安人才多其他的人才是不足的所以這點主委你可能還是要去注意最後一點我必須要去提醒主委啦反正獨立單位要有獨立單位他的格調"},{"start":4355.828,"end":4385.348,"text":"千萬千萬做任何調查的時候不能有其他政治力的介入這一點我要提醒我們所有我們道安會所有的那個運安會所有的這個同仁所以這一點獨立單位要有權威性獨立單位要有專業性這個部分我要拜託我們主委在帶領之下所有的同仁一定要去做到這一點好不好"},{"start":4385.808,"end":4386.348,"text":"現在請喜智傑委員發言"},{"start":4416.886,"end":4418.607,"text":"主委我們應安會重點是事後調查對不對那防範未然"},{"start":4446.403,"end":4459.829,"text":"防範未然防範未然對是是是這是不是雲南會的工作是喔是喔所以其實雲南會應該是當所有的運輸單位的顧問嘛對不對"},{"start":4463.766,"end":4490.225,"text":"也就是所有運輸單位他可能發生什麼問題或者是他已經發生什麼問題所以剛才崑哲委員也有提到就是說以前你們要求要改善的現在改善了沒比如說你們包括普悠瑪包括太魯閣那你們現在要求改善了那個報告都已經做完了嗎"},{"start":4494.301,"end":4515.131,"text":"你說泰魯閣嗎?普悠瑪跟泰魯閣普悠瑪那個都結案阿都結案了對對對阿泰魯閣結案了沒?結案了結案了都結案了阿結案之後你們有提出立即改善的安全議題對不對?有有有這個有追蹤好那現在改善了沒?來那個泰魯閣解散那個改善那個進入"},{"start":4518.111,"end":4537.341,"text":"有關台鐵的太魯閣案目前給的改善建議其中只剩一項那台鐵還沒有完成那其他的部分台鐵都已經完成所以也就是說你今天發生事故的原因然後你們經過提出的改善的要求他們也都改善了現在剩下一點"},{"start":4539.142,"end":4566.366,"text":"報告委員是的還有哪一點沒改善目前是有關於這個沿線偵測這一個義務入侵偵測告警的這個系統部分那台鐵局目前正在施作當中所以我們確定他在沿線的評估要裝設義務入侵告警系統完成之後那這個案子就會結案什麼時候會完成你知道嗎目前台鐵規劃是在今年的年底那目前是他提出來的這個計畫今年年底好"},{"start":4567.219,"end":4582.448,"text":"那我們從邏輯來思考就是說以前發生過的問題跟你們提出要求改善的問題未來這些問題都已經被排除掉了不會再有重複的原因再發生問題對不對"},{"start":4585.415,"end":4613.315,"text":"包委員是這一點其實就是未來有其他在沒有發生過的問題發生不可控或不知道那他們要去先做研究預防再次的發生那除了這個比較特別的像現在已經發生過的類似的案件以後我們要要求不再發生"},{"start":4616.482,"end":4633.368,"text":"報告委員是所以從你們的專業的角度去看他們改善的進度你們也要去qualify就是他確實有沒有要完成你們的要求我想這個是最重要的就是這叫做防範未然"},{"start":4634.517,"end":4636.078,"text":"那我再請教一下就是說現在捷運也有很多的狀況對不對"},{"start":4664.98,"end":4687.22,"text":"那捷運像之前臺中是吊備事件那或者是說臺灣機場捷運那個是西弦鋼條那邊有東西掉落所以你們在軌道上面或者是軌道上方有任何的異物現在你們都可以偵測得到嗎?他們都可以偵測得到嗎?"},{"start":4691.971,"end":4692.431,"text":"那要怎麼改善?"},{"start":4705.295,"end":4706.496,"text":"所以就在軌道上的是可以偵測到嗎對不對在軌道上方現在還不行在軌道上的"},{"start":4729.995,"end":4746.54,"text":"現在是可以偵測得到?掉進軌道裡面的東西是有可以藉由這個他現在的義務偵測系統去偵測到好那你們提出改善建立裡面有沒有包括就是說你只要偵測到他可以自動停止"},{"start":4749.813,"end":4775.596,"text":"報告委員以終結來講他目前的義務偵測是只要列車撞到義務他就會自動停駛自動產生緊急煞車停駛那這個是目前現有的那至於終結案我們因為目前還沒有結案所以相關的這個改善協議看到調備有沒有馬上停駛啊沒有因為這是高空所謂高空作業的義務入侵偵測義務入侵所以他目前是沒有這個機制所以現在在軌道上只要偵測到"},{"start":4777.23,"end":4786.254,"text":"他就可以自動停止是不是必須要列車就是撞擊到這個EU他才有辦法停止撞擊撞擊都已經翻車了撞擊諸位這樣子回答你滿意嗎因為軌道系統因為我們是調查單位我們不是他的目的是這款機關我們的建議希望他說譬如說剛剛講台鐵的部分"},{"start":4805.572,"end":4833.752,"text":"他要備預算他要當然當然這個我的意思就是說因為他是目的社會職業資管機關他要負責安全這個是必要的他的工作那我的意思就是說運安運安就是從你們以前早期的觀念是事後調查嘛那事後調查就有提出改善建立嘛改善建立就要去看改善進度嘛"},{"start":4835.192,"end":4852.951,"text":"改善的完成以後才不會再次的發生嘛所以這叫防範未然嘛那你們的改善建議要很具體他們要做的才能具體那我們未來才不會有相同的事情類似的案件再次的發生危險"},{"start":4854.62,"end":4879.38,"text":"這樣你們可以接受嗎?可以那是不是我們會如果他改善是是屬於比較長期的要編預算的我們會繼續列完到他的改善為止我們幫秦政委去把關對要啊是不編預算的也要看啊當然當然當然當然那我現在就是我們很清楚給運安會一個"},{"start":4881.92,"end":4882.4,"text":"事故發生再調查就完蛋了"},{"start":4912.836,"end":4936.042,"text":"我們要的是防範未然所以我希望運輸安全調查委員會這一個職責要把他擔下來你今天因為那發現他沒有完成沒有如期完成我們在這邊問你就可以講我們還是要去要求目的世界主管機關對不對這樣好不好事實上改善建議就是為了防範未然改善建議要追蹤進度到完成"},{"start":4936.941,"end":4964.356,"text":"對沒有錯好不好我的意思是這個改善建立提出來之後不是就沒事了你要追蹤進度到完成這沒問題啊我們因為我們常常行政院定期會開會我們會跟他報OK那我的意思就是說以前面已經發生過事故的原因你們發現之後改善建立之後進度完成之後相同的原因就不應該再發生再一次的悲劇嘛對不對應該是這樣子那你們要把這個職責擔下來"},{"start":4967.673,"end":4992.774,"text":"因為他照我們的改善信息之後,他的記錄列出來說我會...我知道你的意思,你都不跟你說一句話說OK就好了習委員講的要你建議他們改進了,你們要去追蹤有沒有做,他主要是這樣你就追蹤他有做你就完成,他沒做你要繼續追蹤嘛你繼續追蹤他都不做你要讓我們知道嘛,我們繼續追蹤該單位嘛繼續追蹤到他改善為止"},{"start":4995.356,"end":4996.537,"text":"徐富奎委員花言"},{"start":5029.899,"end":5034.313,"text":"謝主席還有有請我們的林主委好來請林主委"},{"start":5037.644,"end":5058.831,"text":"謝謝委員主委早主委早我想運安會的前身是那一份調查委員會對啦是對那針對我們這幾天這個有一個比較敏感的一個事件就是中國啟用M53東向W122、W123這個銜接航線的部分那因為我們民航局這邊認為"},{"start":5060.432,"end":5072.214,"text":"這個對我們金門馬祖的這個區域航線跟所謂的飛航管制會有所謂的複雜度增加的一個危機那針對這部分我們民航運安會是不是有掌握相關的狀況"},{"start":5074.289,"end":5098.515,"text":"我們是有在watch他啦,但是這個是屬於航管方面,而且屬於這個部地設施管機關所應該會去做處置的。主委這個本席當然也知道是民航局的優惠,但是就所謂的一個安全性的考量,難道我們運安會沒有責任嗎?"},{"start":5101.934,"end":5128.441,"text":"我們還不能講有責任但是我們會會會會monitor他對像陳如剛剛我們許智傑委員然後一直要求我們運安會要做一些的一些處理一樣嗎這個我想政府是一體的啊等這個所謂的有飛行安全考量的部分運安會應該是責無旁貸的我想運安會的功能不是只有調查事故也應該要有預防事故的功能這點主委認同嗎認同認同"},{"start":5130.982,"end":5155.422,"text":"另外請教主委根據本期調閱相關的資料就是我們臺灣一年的交通事故這6年大概成長了10萬件但是這個我們運安會的能量這幾年大概都維持一年一兩百件而已這個數字會不會太少"},{"start":5157.355,"end":5180.484,"text":"從另外一個角度來講是不是表示我們應該為了調查改善經驗有成效所以事故比較少所以看一體的兩面主委好像都自我感覺良好的行不是不是這個這個通報是來說我們會做分析啦但是有的有的屬於像很多台剛有委員講說像台鐵的一些事故有些通報真的是虛驚世間"},{"start":5182.005,"end":5183.846,"text":"我們的自願幫助系統本身也要發揮功能,確實。"},{"start":5213.505,"end":5214.205,"text":"主委有什麼看法?"},{"start":5235.971,"end":5249.062,"text":"我們這三年只有針對一個貨運業的安全管理機制做過一個所謂的議題研究這三年就只有做這件事情其他沒有針對其他的所謂的一個交通類別作用的一個處理我請應當組的組長來報告一下"},{"start":5255.403,"end":5272.972,"text":"委員你好有關這個重大關注議題在109年的時候那時候是我們想要仿效這個國外美國的做法所以嘗試發佈這樣的一個機制那這幾年來我慢慢把它變成再加上委員會的督促下我們把它制度化了像我們從今年開始的發佈的"},{"start":5275.014,"end":5302.152,"text":"運輸安全運輸感染建議的評估報告我們裡面就有安全議題的分析然後針對每個模組都有對應的安全議題那也有我們每年4月都會發布這樣類似的報告對因為就我們去年112年度一個運輸安全的一個改善的一個評估報告裡面也有提到所謂很多飲水人的意外還有我們所謂的一個漁港的一個漁工落海的意外那這些議題是不是應該也要做一個系統的研究"},{"start":5304.742,"end":5321.443,"text":"這個部分就是我們依據我們發布的感恩建議我們去中整歸納的一個比較值得關注的這個議題那這個部分我們會跟著我們感恩建議發布之後的追蹤機制感恩建議發布之後這些感恩建議每半年我們都會追蹤列管一次"},{"start":5322.163,"end":5345.84,"text":"這本席要求一定要做尤其像我們這個有漁工的這個很多的一個漁港的一個地方這也是事故頻傳這請列為一個重要的一個議案好不好沒有問題我們也會朝這個方向來做謝謝另外我想我們在業務報告裡面有看到所謂一個新型的一個運具事故的調查跟國際交流但是業務報告裡面沒有看到相關的內容這部分有進度嗎"},{"start":5347.39,"end":5349.933,"text":"這個我請工程組,因為這個比較會專業,我請工程組的里長、里組長來報告一下"},{"start":5365.031,"end":5380.154,"text":"報告委員我們的科技計畫總統有三大類別那第一個類別就是有關於新徐運具的調查技術跟國際交流那這兩項主要是我們的調查業務包含了運輸事故調查工程能量以及那個精進運輸事故調查人員的能量"},{"start":5382.466,"end":5411.386,"text":"好那我想現在媒體一直在報導我們年底有可能我們的國家火箭的發射廠會落腳在屏東我想我們的林國賢委員是屏東人他也很關心這個議題那未來我們臺灣的衛星的數量只會越來越多但是去年底我們主委回應太空事故調查的能量只有從空運組調來兩個人要處理這個事情這國際的事件這有夠人力是不是可以增加"},{"start":5412.906,"end":5432.67,"text":"這個太空事故調查這個確實是人力不足那我們朝...朝...欸...航空調查組的部分人自來支援事實上那個是如果真正發生太空事故的話人力是不足的主委我想我們還是要這個不管是人力還是相關的軟硬體設備要超前部署要不然這邊變成太空產業到現在連人都還沒到位會很離譜的啦對對要做的加油啦是是謝謝謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":5438.783,"end":5463.111,"text":"好謝謝習副委員接下來我們何新淳委員這個何委員還沒有發言以前啊主席特別提醒我們貴會包括主委在內上台要給禮貌你們通通三四個人通通沒有敬禮不是這個問題而是"},{"start":5465.541,"end":5484.16,"text":"希望你們以後因為你們也不常來立法院這是一個禮數另外一個主委能做到的就當機立斷回答你打了老半天把我們委員的時間都拖掉了即使就只有一個你們最後委員在請你們追蹤案子的時候"},{"start":5486.498,"end":5500.636,"text":"這是你們提出來的要他做的他做不好當然你們要監督啊這很快拜託主委就當機立斷把責任承擔起來好不好來繼續請我們何委員感謝主席的才事那我們請這個林主委好請林主委"},{"start":5506.346,"end":5529.392,"text":"委員對主委其實我們整個運營會都要積極而且要讓人民有感知道說我們有個獨立調查的機關是為國人的海陸空各項的安全現在剛剛許委員還講到未來還要發展太空產業那我們對相關的這個運輸的安全要讓人民有感覺到我們運營會是一個專業"},{"start":5532.165,"end":5552.15,"text":"量能夠而且獨立調查公正公開有夠專業的一個機關那所以我在你的業務報告裡面其實你說預期的這個施政績效其實對人民有感的有兩項我們重大的運輸事故的調查我們運安會要去發現原因發現這個事故"},{"start":5554.791,"end":5569.359,"text":"以後安全的改善建議而且最重要是後面這句喔協助各機關完成分項的執行計畫就是運用你們的專業給建議給各部會應該要改善什麼"},{"start":5570.259,"end":5590.976,"text":"還要做得到啦這第一個第二個人民會有感的是什麼你們還必須要強化安全趨勢跟預防性的安全研究技術就如同剛剛有委員提到的我們現在海陸空碰到的這些各式各樣的交通運具的這個模式那還有可能"},{"start":5593.477,"end":5615.448,"text":"會發生的事故的模式我們又如何去因應那我們才會相信說運安會是真正夠專業而且是能夠提供國人安全給各部會的一個有理而且合理而且做得到的一個建議啦我之所以用這樣子來開始講是因為呢 你是要做不好下去啦"},{"start":5616.688,"end":5633.714,"text":"臺中捷運在你的報告裡面有提到運安會呢告訴我們在去年的11月30號提出終結事故那時候是事實調查因為呢去年的5月10號發生的你光是一個事實調查從5月10號發生到11月30號來"},{"start":5637.856,"end":5658.536,"text":"我去年11月要求你們運安會才說要加速調查報告提出的時程所以好了我們去年11月17號公布所謂的事實資料收集及報告撰寫然後你告訴我說今年的5月會提早來公布正式的報告"},{"start":5660.458,"end":5685.051,"text":"我就問一下主委那今年5月我可以期待可以如期看到這個正式調查報告嗎?不過委員我們事實上調查報告的草案已經在4月份完成了那接下來要依程序齁要給被調查單位有30天的回覆的時間然後接下來就進入委員會審查30天的回覆時間所以5月到底能不能如期?應該來得及還是可以再提早公佈?"},{"start":5686.826,"end":5711.819,"text":"我們的調查報告查案確實是完成的那如果各單位的懸殊的意見如果比較單純的話那你們去要求啊你的報告啊整個調查報告啊這個時程是多久一年多欸我跟你講喔監察院已經在今年4月15號公告糾正有關台中捷運的這件事情的一個案文及調查報告"},{"start":5713.164,"end":5741.239,"text":"監察院已經出來了調查報告出來了你有看到嗎主委監察院對台中捷運這件事的調查報告你有看到了嗎你知道嗎我知道你知道嗎那你看到了嘛對不對那監察院在比你們短的時間裡面已經告訴我們因為呢職安署有職安署的責任台中市政府有台中市政府的責任然後呢台中捷運公司有台中捷運公司不對的地方"},{"start":5742.339,"end":5754.761,"text":"那事故列車的隨車員也有他沒有盡力的地方那他都把你拔書出來了監察院的終結的事故報告你看到了你覺得跟你們的方向有沒有一樣"},{"start":5755.794,"end":5782.489,"text":"事實上監察的報告跟我們的方向大概是一致的大概一致的吧那監察院已經出來了你們為什麼還要再等到今年5月而且呢歷時一年多因為我們的報告還要經過行政程序好那我請問一下行政程序那行政程序就是行政效率啊行政效率難道不可以好一點嗎所以所以我們會接下來會跟這個就是人民隊我們運安會是不是關了"},{"start":5783.63,"end":5784.631,"text":"我們可以協調可以把委員會加開加開委員會的處理"},{"start":5805.458,"end":5831.544,"text":"加開委員會的處理對我們委員會是一個月一次那麼各單位陳書欣我們可以電話寫來請他趕快報過來是嘛這個就是行政效率嘛沒問題啊這個時程為什麼要一拖再拖呢是對不對監察院的報告出來了那我再問你一次那你說監察院的報告跟你的方向差不多一樣那我可以期待5月份你提出來的這個正式的調查報告還有其他什麼重點嗎"},{"start":5834.09,"end":5862.457,"text":"我們的會比較detail因為資產署的報告當時我們還要做一些你們會比較detail我可以理解因為你們花了那麼久的時間在收集資料在寫所謂的爬書當時候發生的事實跟事後的一些細節這個我可以理解那我的意思是說那你建議該改進該檢討除了監察院剛剛我們已經4月15號看到的報告以外你們還有其他的重點嗎"},{"start":5863.319,"end":5869.502,"text":"主委我為什麼對運安會說真的我沒有信心為什麼來我們2022清水隧道事件的報告書也是你們運安會調查的也是你們提出正式的報告的你們有建議要裝義務入侵偵測系統跟隧道防護系統"},{"start":5891.414,"end":5900.945,"text":"剛剛許委員有提到你們建議了之後你剛剛回答的意思是說台鐵現在正在做但是你知道這一次4月3號花蓮地震花蓮地震那個鐵道上還是有一顆落石落下來大家都不知道為什麼大家都不知道為什麼"},{"start":5912.662,"end":5930.388,"text":"所以我們的建議有沒有有沒有到位這第一個第二個台鐵他現在等於他的安全跟專業到底有沒有能力去把整個你們的建議落實你們有再繼續督導嗎"},{"start":5932.529,"end":5939.291,"text":"有台鐵的那個有關軌道入侵的偵測設備我們還是在督導他可是他沒有辦法偵測到這一次花蓮地震那顆落石落下來啊連文工財部長自己也承認啊他們現在設計的系統監測系統並沒有辦法預知這落下來的那顆石頭啊那你們的建議是什麼還可以再怎麼改進"},{"start":5954.755,"end":5972.09,"text":"你剛剛回答其他委員是說我們可以監測到義務入侵而且要等到撞到了我們才可以讓他列車停死那我們難道我們對安全的現代化的最新的科技沒有辦法在落實碰到落實之前就偵測到就讓列車停死嗎?沒辦法嗎?所以表示之前沒有這樣建議嗎?"},{"start":5983.186,"end":6010.863,"text":"那不是很離譜嗎有建議但是他動作他比較慢台鐵因為他還要他說他還要編預算還要什麼這個我當然知道啊問題是我跟你講主委你再回去看你們的調查報告你認認真真的書面報告給我你真的像4月3號花蓮地震那一顆落石落到軌道上如果你有提出建議說希望在碰到異物之前偵測到就要停止"},{"start":6015.804,"end":6039.923,"text":"這個部分你順便報告給我我們好好的來談清楚因為就我的理解從之前運安會成立到現在每一項的正式報告裡面我在看的時候這個複合式的有沒有鐵路跟上面的公路的這個邊坡邊坡你們有建議但是呢因為地震的落實他可能不是只有邊坡的問題還有更上方的一個落實的問題你們到底有沒有本於專業有建議"},{"start":6042.49,"end":6053.561,"text":"這個我們好好的來討論以上好謝謝委員好謝謝我們何新淳委員接下來我們魯明哲委員發言"},{"start":6070.008,"end":6074.186,"text":"來謝謝主席有請我們定安會林主委好請林主委"},{"start":6079.232,"end":6102.905,"text":"委員好直接切入主題啦剛剛很多委員說了其實我覺得這個今天我看到運安會我剛剛很多委員問了我有一個心得啦所以運安兩個字如果我們這些官員只是求自己的好運求自己官位的一個平安這是我一種感覺社會最關切的事情難道你們一點的感覺都沒有嗎"},{"start":6104.065,"end":6127.2,"text":"民眾心裡在期待什麼你們真的會感覺是不是我不敢講所有人都很麻木到底怎麼回事啊事情在你們那邊沒有輕重緩急所有的大民眾關鍵事情不好意思啊我們現在事事查核半年之前完成了我們就一年之後才會給你看報告到底發生了什麼事經常會有完成的報告但是讓我感覺"},{"start":6128.72,"end":6156.328,"text":"整個政府讓民眾很難受就像我第一屆立法委員的時候看到台鐵公司太魯閣事件要求的改項事項幾乎90%還沒改善普悠瑪事件然後還沒改善太魯閣就弄完就是他什麼時候改善他發生多少事情才能夠感覺到積極所以我對應安會在這件事情的處理上面我個人是覺得非常不滿"},{"start":6157.248,"end":6176.545,"text":"5月10號去年的5月10號臺東捷運發生了這樣的一個事情那到了今年的4月13號你報告還沒有真正的一個結案報告還沒有提出來更別說按照你的結案專業的報告我們第一線的機關甚至監管機關他要改善的時間4月13號"},{"start":6179.198,"end":6202.634,"text":"我坦白講不幸中的大幸還好進入我們積極的那種義務不是很大型的造成停電12分鐘所以我是覺得我不知道大家有沒有敏感度沒有那麼敏感度像剛剛主委你也說我們大概跟監察院也差不多所以我是覺得這個積極的程度"},{"start":6203.942,"end":6206.144,"text":"這個委員講得對 比較社會關注度比較高來就比較關切我們確實要將換人力把他踢走 確實沒有錯"},{"start":6228.904,"end":6240.392,"text":"主委我想有一件事情我相信你也很積極啦可是問題是你要知道我們的委員中間所有的專家學友在這邊他確實都很有專業有沒有一些外聘的委員"},{"start":6242.32,"end":6262.556,"text":"對外聘的委員我直接講一件事我從地方講到中央我們有很多委員制後面都變成不負責任制為什麼呢大家都認為說某領域的專家我們承認他是專家但任何的專家任何領域的專家參加一個個案的討論如果他沒有針對於個案沒有讀書不讀書他只有50分"},{"start":6266.127,"end":6284.885,"text":"了解我意思嗎?100分 因為我專家嘛 我軌道專家你來 然後問什麼事然後提出一大堆問題 給他資料不看我跟你講過去我們在地方政府不管衛生環保專家來 忙得要死他根本沒有時間了解個案 像這種齁 如果"},{"start":6285.606,"end":6287.427,"text":"目前看到我們其中報告其實就兩點"},{"start":6308.558,"end":6323.592,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":6323.752,"end":6344.972,"text":"是對於我們地方的軌道不管是現在武都有捷運公司的能不能自行來處理不管在軌道來做一個偵測系統或者有車載的一個偵測系統讓自己從我們這一端來防護義務入侵系統這是大概你們現在其中報告其實跟監察院也很類似"},{"start":6346.687,"end":6373.019,"text":"那你們現在的做法最後你們的報告希望你們針對現在五都他們有時候相關的一些做的程度完全不一樣有一些是針對建築在身體建造的過程中做管制但是有些不是要建築啊他沒身體建造啊或可能掉個掐具啊或者掉個什麼東西啊他不需要身體建造的我們現在好像看到台北市也對於像這種高空這個"},{"start":6374.58,"end":6375.181,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":6403.384,"end":6403.605,"text":"最後一個"},{"start":6424.205,"end":6449.961,"text":"這個捷運軌道工程的所謂的自主的一個防護義務入侵系統正好我們上個禮拜請到交通部長跟鐵道局他們現在也是蠻頭痛的所以現在都他們覺得車載的部分現在到底有沒有實驗成功甚至放置在軌道的部分有沒有成熟的產品現在外界說法都不一我也希望我們運安會有一些國內外的一個專家"},{"start":6451.843,"end":6466.636,"text":"針對於這個部分這個部分啊即使在結論沒有辦法告訴他怎麼去做後面要去協助輔導到底有什麼樣的方法能夠來針對於義務入侵在軌道工程上面是很適用的"},{"start":6467.656,"end":6489.894,"text":"那是高鐵的系統適不適合現在鐵路做的預警系統適不適合還是全世界有哪些預警系統適不適合我們希望在事後結論之後我們的一些專家學者也能在一個協助的立場提供一些資料這樣可不可以可以可以沒問題我們照這個方向來做"},{"start":6491.115,"end":6492.176,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":6519.283,"end":6526.747,"text":"主委早安我們看到目前在國道上的事故事件我們發現國道緩撞車為維護施工安全的緩撞車發生事故的件數一直在攀升"},{"start":6539.773,"end":6554.112,"text":"去年上個會期本席有關心這個議題所以那時候本席關心的就是說像這種車禍事故發生然後就我們運安會的一個事故調查的一個事故範圍的標準當然是沒有達到"},{"start":6556.235,"end":6556.475,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6574.506,"end":6574.526,"text":"．綜合會議"},{"start":6603.326,"end":6619.776,"text":"去年我們已經有立案調查了就是針對國道1號網大亞路段罪狀工程車緩撞事故這是我們立案的第一案嘛那本席先請教一下目前我們針對這一類的事故目前已經有幾案就是有立案調查的有幾案那進度如何"},{"start":6620.7,"end":6641.381,"text":"目前除了大雅路段這個有舉動調查以外還有4個類似的都是撞網說我們在蒐集那蒐集完之後如果他做大龍小鷹我們就會做分析所以你的意思是總共5案還是總共有5案目前我們立案之後我們的調查方向如何"},{"start":6642.196,"end":6665.389,"text":"我們調查方式像是這樣子,我們會分三個分組,一個是車輛分組,然後操作分組,還有屬於這個道路分組。道路分組會有交通建設、防範設施相關的分組。那這個這三個方式調查出來,如果說是屬於道路的安全主管機構,譬如說交通部,真的我們經營也會另外給他們。那屬於車輛部分就比較複雜。"},{"start":6666.83,"end":6666.85,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":6683.323,"end":6684.163,"text":"我們目前預計這個調查報告什麼時候會出來?"},{"start":6712.815,"end":6725.044,"text":"大雅的部分明年五月明年五月還蠻長的時間我們會加快因為我們現在所有的人力都調度在網站方面在調查我們會加快"},{"start":6725.603,"end":6752.962,"text":"是那如果說在這個調查報告還沒有出來之前就是說我們目前剛剛主委有提到嘛就是也會朝向就是車商的這個城市設計的問題嘛那個輔助駕駛的城市設計的相關問題那如果說我們調查報告還沒有出來我們可能沒有利基點或理由去要求車商做改善吧那這樣子是不是這個危險都還是前就是會這個存在著"},{"start":6754.935,"end":6772.88,"text":"我沒聽懂就是說我們的調查報告還沒有出來之前你沒有辦法去認定或判定說是城市的問題嗎車上也有可能說是道路的問題嗎是這個我們施工的時候的相關規範的問題所以你要如何去要求車上做改善"},{"start":6773.468,"end":6791.396,"text":"對,要等真正報告分析出來之後才比較確確,因為這個東西不能用猜測,還是要有證據。對阿,要有證據嘛,所以說在這個報告出來之前,那等於是說針對這樣子一個事故的一個預防發生,我們沒有其他的作為,沒有其他辦法。"},{"start":6792.731,"end":6805.942,"text":"目前我們是有跟交通部在開會的時候有請他對這方面相關就像黃狀車在公路上相關的管理措施希望他能夠加強這方面是有做"},{"start":6807.631,"end":6834.691,"text":"但是我們也就是說當然這個防撞車它必須在國道上的作用當然就是因為工程的需求為了維護這個整個道路安全的一個進行維修所以它也存在著很大的一個風險危險性所以這個類的事故一直重複在發生當然也導致這種防撞車它的很多保險就是會被拒保"},{"start":6835.231,"end":6862.635,"text":"那當然也是造成就是說他沒有辦法出車的話可能衍生的問題就是也是影響到用路人行車的一個安全我想這個都是息息相關的所以我們也希望就是說針對這個這一類的事故目前我們看到他的數字是一直在往上攀升的所以我們也希望就是說一方面這個調查報告能夠盡快的一個完成之後能夠有比較明確要求改善的一個措施"},{"start":6863.476,"end":6887.678,"text":"來降低這樣子的一個事故發生是是我們也是期望我查這個方向謝謝委員謝謝好接下來特別跟大家報告就是林進憲委員執行完我們休息5分鐘我們休息5分鐘再接下來再來執行好現在請林進憲委員發言"},{"start":6893.608,"end":6915.653,"text":"好,謝謝主席,不然要請我們運安會林主委好,請林主委安委好主委好,主委禮拜三喔,4月17號,臺南市發生了電動車啦,熄火啦,沒有使用中啦,停在公園,卻自己燃燒起來,你知道這個新聞嗎?"},{"start":6917.188,"end":6929.566,"text":"自然吶的電動車啊他停在公園裡面突然間吶起火燒起來了濃煙密布啊你不知道這新聞嗎好那我再來提醒主委啊電動車啦"},{"start":6931.727,"end":6954.898,"text":"自己燃燒其實已經發生好幾件2021年3月尤其是那種大車公車啦電動公車2021年3月桃園客運維修廠發生了起火燃燒燒掉了7輛2022年10月淡水客運總站不明原因燒毀了兩輛的電動公車所以電動車"},{"start":6960.256,"end":6983.001,"text":"起火燃燒這是一個非常危險的尤其未來我們正在大推電動公車電動公車目前全國大概佔了10%左右應該10%稍微多一點預計政府要補貼各地客運滿1萬輛一台大概都補助1000萬大概就1000億"},{"start":6984.369,"end":6992.388,"text":"所以這是政府重大的一個政策那電動車起火那到底什麼原因啊那運安會會不會介入調查"},{"start":6993.994,"end":7022.04,"text":"這個案子如果確實是越來越多的話我們會用這個第三目的包含條款會啟動所以你現在並沒有調查目前我們是在蒐集電動巴士從來沒有一個電動車列入立案調查還沒有我們準備要已經在準備準備要有希望我們要加快這樣的腳步因為電動車不管是一般的汽車或者是未來即將全面補助的電動公車全國是目標一萬輛"},{"start":7025.381,"end":7051.757,"text":"使用率、使用車輛數、電動車輛數都會越來越快、越來越高運安會去年有去美國考察我看到你們有寫一個考察報告美國運安會怎麼面對電動車美國運安會怎麼運作美國運安會有分為一般調查和特別調查其中特別調查它有一些主題式的調查"},{"start":7053.089,"end":7064.775,"text":"例如包含機車、房東車、包含校車,學生使用的校車的安全性很重要,以及電動車。電動車它包括了像自駕,電動車的自駕以及像這種電動車、電動巴士。那同時呢"},{"start":7074.127,"end":7096.399,"text":"運輸安全調查委員會自己的考察報告也寫到未來將要建立有關於電動車和自駕車的事故調查程序和法規也就是說目前我們對於電動車的調查程序沒有法規也沒有是不是這樣子我們看起來我們應該要對這個電動車要要趕快來制定一下對好"},{"start":7101.42,"end":7123.597,"text":"美國曾經調查過這種電動巴士起火雖然沒有造成乘客傷亡美國運安會也介入調查然後他調查說電池系統公車就巴士的電池系統如果受到潮濕就容易導致火災所以美國運安會要求電動車製造商"},{"start":7125.638,"end":7150.617,"text":"要告知使用者如果萬一遇到電子燃燒要如何滅火甚至美國運管會也要求製造商要提供有關安全滅火和車輛的資訊美國聯邦交通管理局就類似我們交通部的公路總局也因此撰寫相關的指南供給客運公司下去參考所以目前我們完全對電動車"},{"start":7152.378,"end":7153.018,"text":"去年4月去年4月"},{"start":7180.609,"end":7207.041,"text":"運安會可能是經過國會的關心就開始擬定重大運輸事故範圍的修正草案確實像你講的草則要擴大就是說降低啟動調查的門檻這第一個第二個就擴大調查的範圍方向去調整是不是這樣沒有錯但是有幾個相關單位反對第一個高工局反對"},{"start":7210.298,"end":7227.937,"text":"緊正署反對反對理由都差不多啦都說什麼你改變調查範圍會降低提供調查的門檻啦會造成他們的混淆通報上的混淆啦會造成啦什麼通報作業上的困擾是不是這樣"},{"start":7231.192,"end":7259.186,"text":"應該是不會啦不會會議上寫得很清楚啦這兩個單位的意見表達也是這樣子啦當然他們會反對啦盡量不要做事嘛你如果把門檻、凍結、調查範圍擴大警政署會增加嘛對不對公路總局、高工局也怕增加他們的事啊這兩個單位的反對會不會影響運安會對這方面的一個調整"},{"start":7260.787,"end":7276.881,"text":"應該不會違想但是如果啦如果說這個到時候這個重大運輸事務委員會的條子修正案沒有過我們還是一樣用這個報房條款還是可以我們還可以社會關注度報房條款我剛跟你說你智慧虎公你現在拿回來了報房條款你要用報房條款"},{"start":7278.904,"end":7292.341,"text":"不能自費無功啦,只要你認為可以調查就可以調查啦,你有這個報案聽完才笑嘛,所以這些當我反對是沒意義的啦,這怕事啦,本位主義,我們出去站在外面看啦"},{"start":7293.502,"end":7294.422,"text":"現在我們休息5分鐘5分鐘再開始"},{"start":7415.776,"end":7432.46,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":7450.151,"end":7462.707,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7480.367,"end":7508.122,"text":"二、審查委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":7516.784,"end":7523.514,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":7526.954,"end":7551.613,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7559.497,"end":7573.836,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7577.82,"end":7591.59,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7623.414,"end":7626.156,"text":"好,請官員請官員盡快就座來"},{"start":7648.585,"end":7650.348,"text":"林佩祥委員花言"},{"start":7662.698,"end":7690.563,"text":"主席請我們林主委上台好請林主委其實在第二頁的時候你有提到近期媒體關注的重大運輸事故好像漏了一個既然是我們是運輸安全委員會然後又理論上針對金門海巡跟大陸漁船之間的兩死兩傷的案子"},{"start":7691.448,"end":7713.245,"text":"理論上來講運輸安全委員會應該要介入應該要知情那請問一下目前來講以運輸安全委員會的權限跟你們的職責來講目前這一個2月14號金門海巡與這個大陸漁船之間的運輸安全的案子請問造勢原因為何那我們運安會有沒有什麼資訊可以提供給國人呢"},{"start":7716.182,"end":7729.769,"text":"這個範圍這個按照中央運輸事務的範圍裡面這個他是屬於執法過程他不在立案的範圍內不在立案範圍內因為理論我記得如果依照新聞報導在227號依照新聞報導來講的時候他說有第三方機構鑑定的資訊那應該第三方機構鑑定的資訊有沒有提供給運揚委員會嗎"},{"start":7739.505,"end":7759.157,"text":"我所聽說的好像是委託一個協會還是一些教授來協助那理論上這邊是有兩死兩傷的海運應該是水路的運輸安全出狀況不只是應該只有執法單位或海洋委員會知道理論上運安會也應該要知道一些事情對吧"},{"start":7760.254,"end":7789.333,"text":"我們有在瓦取有在馬里特但是就是說我剛剛講因為他這個是在執法過程中執法過程中產生的事故一般我們是不調查的我是希望說如果能的話運輸安全委員會畢竟來講這是二死二傷的重大事故那我會希望說未來如果說這方面的事有這方面的資訊麻煩提供給本席跟提供給國人因為這件事情到目前為止全世界都很關心"},{"start":7790.315,"end":7795.033,"text":"那不是只有說執法單位說的算理論上如果回到本質這是運輸安全的問題"},{"start":7796.705,"end":7825.201,"text":"第二個其實在第7頁的時候有提出我們運安會是會特別提出有關這個運輸安全的改善建議追蹤與列管那因為本席是基隆市選出來的民選立委所以本席對於今年4月3號強震之後雖然對基隆市的目前看起來對基隆市區的影響雖然不是很大但是事實上來講"},{"start":7826.922,"end":7846.655,"text":"在前年2022年11月1號國道在汐止交流道的時候就有一個走山的事件這件事情造成那時候的交通黑暗期長達一個禮拜還有另外一件事是2010年也就是14年前4月25號國山七土段走山的走山這件事情我想主委應該是記憶猶新"},{"start":7851.618,"end":7871.412,"text":"這兩個事情都是因為說國道上面因為是這個水土保持不好還是因為其他狀況而去走山而走山之後也做出來一定的一定針對性的強化措施但是這些強化措施在4月3號這次強震之後是否有所改善是否有所改變我想在這邊就叫我們運安會的專業意見"},{"start":7874.383,"end":7886.962,"text":"有沒有什麼你們要提出來的現在對於那邊的監測對於那邊的監督對那邊安全係數的保護甚至如果對於說附近附近區域未來是否還會發生同樣的事情請問運安會有沒有什麼準備"},{"start":7889.656,"end":7904.452,"text":"我們這個沒有調查但是我們有在注意這個新聞如果是屬於天災或是天災的例外然後屬於說對這就是我要提的應作為或沒作為他應該要做的那我們我們我我我不是"},{"start":7905.373,"end":7929.098,"text":"本期非常不希望是我們是在之後事情發生之後我們再來去談說早知如此何必當初這些事情已經發生過國一的走三國三的走三對於我們對於基隆市對於新北市都是很大的交通黑暗期都是很大交通危機而我們之前這些狀況如果在之前我們能夠做一定程度的預防跟處理"},{"start":7929.958,"end":7931.739,"text":"主委,您認為是這樣嗎?我舉個例子,像4月10號台鐵通報那個45次的普悠瑪在和平站,那有落實落下來嘛。"},{"start":7952.807,"end":7976.817,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":7976.897,"end":7992.517,"text":"我找出他的發生事故的噪音我就提出改善建議嘛我希望他不能再發生但是他因為天然災害他天然災害發生之後我找出噪音我不能叫他不要再發生天災啊現在已經發生過了你們在那邊應該也有一定程度的預防跟監測但那邊的狀況"},{"start":7994.119,"end":8010.815,"text":"是不是如果說有任何其他的專業意見因為今天403這次的強震不是只有花蓮受到傷害其實全台灣的地址都要受到一定程度的影響那本席是鑒於說之前在兩年前跟14年前都在基隆在北部"},{"start":8011.175,"end":8027.772,"text":"我們一向認為說臺灣北部的研盤是相對比較堅固的但是就算再怎麼堅固還是發生了兩次走山那這件事情以運輸安全委員會的專業來講你們必須在這之前先提出一定程度的建議來去提醒公務局跟地方政府做出一定程度的改善不是嗎"},{"start":8028.793,"end":8050.081,"text":"對沒有錯我們將來本席在這邊建請說你們現在可以不用回答我給我直接回答說你們專業意見但是本席希望會後你們可以提出一定程度的預防措施預防的建議來跟中央單位跟交通部甚至跟地方政府來做一定程度溝通我們可以請交通部加強山坡地的監測或什麼這我們做得到我們可以這樣好謝謝委員好謝謝"},{"start":8053.884,"end":8058.849,"text":"好,謝謝林佩祥委員。現在請廖宣祥委員發言。好,謝謝主席,麻煩一樣邀請我們林主委喔。好,請林主委。"},{"start":8078.696,"end":8092.849,"text":"主委好,這個我們國人對我們運安會可能都比較陌生,其實大部分的人了解運安會,大部分都是看一些國外的影集,就是之前有一些什麼飛機師式的一些影集,相信你也都看過。"},{"start":8093.55,"end":8114.045,"text":"我想確認一下我們運安會最主要的一個目的應該不是苛責嘛對不對是將事件發生過後一個重大交通事件過後然後我們去探討了解一下他事故發生的原因然後來提出報告避免下一次事故的再發生嘛應該是這樣沒錯吧是是"},{"start":8116.634,"end":8131.927,"text":"既然是要防止下一次事故的再發生就是說在我們調查的過程當中應該都每一天我們每報告提出來的之前的每一天其實都是一個潛在的一個風險對不對"},{"start":8135.109,"end":8151.85,"text":"因為我們看我們許多的運安會的檢討報告很多都拖了就是我不能講拖啦就是說調查的時間都還蠻長的一年或是兩年的一個時間那剛剛有聽其他委員詢問的時候我們大概一個月開一次會是不是"},{"start":8154.349,"end":8169.841,"text":"委員會是一直一個月開到委員會的審議的時候已經是在已經是最後階段最後階段了所以說就是業務單位可能收集資料一陣子了之後那可能資料比較完備了之後然後才提到委員會去對那個案子來做討論嘛對不對"},{"start":8170.922,"end":8185.917,"text":"是一開始的時候立案嘛那立案就要先前部隊去搜尋資料回來回來之後就開始做歸納那事實資料資料先出去然後開始進入訪談分析然後階段是很多啦"},{"start":8187.113,"end":8202.42,"text":"那我想確認一下就是在可能動輒一年兩年的這個過程當中會影響到我們調查報告出來要達到可能兩年這麼久的時間大部分的時間內部作業大概都是哪些程序佔用的最多的時間"},{"start":8204.758,"end":8225.643,"text":"事實上是在分析的階段最多分析的階段最多分析因為有時候收集的資料收了完之後當在分析過程中發現好像有一部分不太明確會回去再去收集所以都在我們內部嗎如果說我們跟其他平行單位要資料的時候這部分有時候會拖到時間嗎應該不會應該不會我們要資料應該都還蠻快的嘛"},{"start":8230.004,"end":8255.41,"text":"那既然都是我們內部在處理的話那就撇除到外界的這個可能那個增長我們調查報告的時間嘛那一個事故我們需要到兩年才能夠把這個報告交出來那我就會覺得是不是還要檢討的空間啊你們我不是在苛責你們而是說希望在整個制度下面我們能夠把這個報告的時間縮短那你會認為說你們"},{"start":8257.833,"end":8274.574,"text":"需要怎麼樣的一個協助或者說你們可以提出怎樣的經濟措施可以讓這個報告能夠再縮短一點比如說一個飛安的事故兩年如果說我們能夠縮短到一年那這個一年的時間那就確保了我們國人的飛行的安全多了一層保障是這樣沒錯嗎"},{"start":8276.004,"end":8304.059,"text":"一般齁一般外面的理解是這樣子說啊你這個是就剛剛委員講的怎麼這麼久齁事實上當我們解釋之後啦齁你發生事故之後我們要去收集資料然後開始要測試要研究要邏輯分析然後會找出根本性的噪音然後相關的風險也要去歸納去搜尋對不對那再提出對症的改善建議看起來好像我一分鐘就練完了但事實上他的過程是很長的"},{"start":8305.14,"end":8319.21,"text":"但是兩年也大家也會覺得太久了。看你這個案子是屬於一級案還是二級案還是三級案,不一定。那在國外也是這樣的類似的期程。那在我們的國情上是社會比較關注我們會加班的人力,加班或什麼。"},{"start":8320.691,"end":8344.586,"text":"所以不見得是就是每個月就一直硬梆梆說就為你剛剛提的12個月或18個不見得我們可以加速但是同時也會很辛苦好啦那個就要再拜託啦因為我看我們每一個組其實可以看到我們有不同的組別有航空、水路、鐵道、公路其實每一個組別的調派人力應該是不一樣的吧"},{"start":8345.575,"end":8365.022,"text":"大同小異例如說我們公路組有9個人但是因為抱歉我想指的是我們在報告上面可以看到其實每個組他的業務的負荷量並不相同包括去年大家說水路怎麼那麼多公路的案件相對比較少每個組的人力都一樣"},{"start":8371.304,"end":8382.907,"text":"所以我們有成立一個一個混合的解釋小組就是互相調配資源但是屬於他那個組的比較英文講比較懂得比較專業的的時候還是要尊重那一組"},{"start":8383.767,"end":8404.957,"text":"對啦我們還是期待啦我們期待啦我們如果說預算會需要資源或怎麼樣我相信立法院會支持那只是說在相關的事故真的我想我們可以解釋但是民眾都會有一個更更更更這個更好的一個期待希望把這個相關的檢討報告的時間能夠把它縮短我們再一起加油好不好麻煩主委是是是謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":8407.696,"end":8413.398,"text":"好 謝謝廖宣祥委員現在請我們蔡其昌副院長發言謝謝主席麻煩運安會林主委林主委副院長"},{"start":8435.697,"end":8463.079,"text":"主委我剛剛在辦公室裡面齁這個看了一下早上的質詢我覺得這個炮火算猛烈啦齁邏輯上我認為今天不應該這麼猛烈所以我今天啊就只有短短的5分鐘所以我想有幾個問題你可以認真來思考一下本席可以給你一個建議第一個我想齁這個我們舉一個例子就好這很多委員這個在探討那個時間就到底要給"},{"start":8463.639,"end":8493.167,"text":"運輸安全調查委員會針對每一個運輸安全調查委員會需要調查的案子應該給予多少時間叫合理那現行我們把它分級嘛第一級大概多少時間第二級我們現在是用這種制度那但是問題是這個制度這樣的分級方式是否社會大眾普遍理解立法院的各位委員普遍能夠接受理解所以這個所謂的合理性跟他的一定程度的透明度恐怕是需要加強那我在對比其他的"},{"start":8494.932,"end":8519.18,"text":"我們以凍結這個案子就好了所以你知道凍結的仲裁在去年年底我印象如果沒有記錯仲裁就已經宣判這個建設公司要賠台中市政府多少錢去年就已經仲裁結果出來那今年這個監察院的調查報告也出來"},{"start":8520.814,"end":8544.108,"text":"主委我其實很擔心一個我不知道會不會發生就是說你想仲裁也在查因為要仲裁要宣判他一定要對事實的本身他有一定程度理解他才可以宣判換言之在仲裁宣判的時候那個宣判者他對於這件事情的整個這個前因後果發生的狀況他一定有所"},{"start":8544.948,"end":8564.338,"text":"這個新政他一定有所新政有所了解有所新政他才能夠在仲裁上宣判再來調查的監察委員他也一定一樣跟仲裁委員一樣有一定的新政他也才能夠做出監察院的調查報告那現在問題來了我們是最後那一個啊萬一公布出來跟前面不一樣怎麼辦"},{"start":8567.011,"end":8585.467,"text":"主委你有沒有想過這個問題剛剛我有聽到你又回答說應該你跟監察院是差不多的阿如果有一天有一個調查報告出來你們是不一樣請問一下這裏面所有人民的信任所有可能涉及商務的賠償阿到底要誰會再遵守主委"},{"start":8588.574,"end":8606.659,"text":"監察院的調查的跟我們的方向是一致可是我們的報告比他細膩阿對阿萬一監察院沒有調查的部分你們有調查嘛所以只有一個報告那監察院有調查的部分跟你們也有調查的部分如果有一天出現不一樣的時候請問我們該相信誰的"},{"start":8607.509,"end":8634.785,"text":"因為他拿的這個resource的資料都一模一樣不可能會喔真的嗎主委你真有信心喔因為我們跟同一個單位拿的資料都一樣對對對但是我們的分析的角度會跟他當然沒有關係主委這個是你應該回去因為我只有5分鐘我其實沒有空跟你在這裡探討啦齁我只是提醒你第一個你想齁這麼多單位在調查再來這些單位source都跟你一樣他速度卻比你快"},{"start":8636.394,"end":8659.514,"text":"因為核心的問題要出來嘛才可以對這件事情做一個結案或了結嘛那你跟他不一樣的部分或許不是今天這個事件的問題核心嘛可是大家怎麼看運安會監察院跟你都同樣的受死你們調查出來結果一樣人家監察院為什麼可以速度比你快你的速度比人家慢這個叫做合理性的說明"},{"start":8660.285,"end":8684.742,"text":"就是運安會恐怕要花一點時間對國會對社會大眾對運安會你們的分級制度調查每一級調查的時間是否合理該被檢視然後這些調查報告如果不一樣未來不要產生爭議在立法院大家有人拿監察院的報告有人拿運安會的報告草野立委又因為大家這個不同又吵得說這個有政治力介入又什麼"},{"start":8685.745,"end":8714.942,"text":"我先防患未然啦就你們講運安會的每一個報告其實都在防患未然嘛對不對我也一樣先在這裡提醒這個也因為從終結這個案子就可以知道第一個我們速度最慢人家仲裁也判了要賠多少錢也判了然後的監察院報告也出來了哇阿當海阿現在純單運安會所以這個難怪大家會會質疑嘛好第二個部分我們所有的所有的這個報告啊"},{"start":8715.472,"end":8740.632,"text":"我們所有的報告每一次運安會的調查都是為了阻止這個下一個事故的發生這個其實是報告的精髓在這裡也是運安會成立或者在立法院代表民意的立法委員其實大家最關心的其實就是這個所以在我的看法上剛剛你都被白罵運安會我告訴大家"},{"start":8741.989,"end":8766.414,"text":"運安會對所有的行政機關我只要透過調查我認為你該改善的部分你沒有改善我告訴主委我如果是主委就對了這個部長哪一個部都一樣你準備要下台這個是人民生命財產的安全我運安會作為一個獨立機關我告訴你你要立即改善什麼避免下一個遺憾的事情再發生"},{"start":8767.813,"end":8794.128,"text":"我管理部長預算你要編幾年那是你部長的事情啊人命關天的事情在你部長的行政作為當中要排第一順位第二順位第三順位那是你行政部門的事我運安會只負責調查告訴你缺失在哪裡你該如何改善為什麼運安會主委今天站在這裡被立委罵站在這裡的應該是被你調查出來今天一大堆的理由包括預算不足人力不足一大堆的不足"},{"start":8795.492,"end":8817.122,"text":"不足我們就換一個能力好一點的部長或者局長或者署長而不是運安會站在這裡你是獨立機關你今天代表的是專業然後告訴這個行政機關你該怎麼做讓人民在任何空、陸、海各種運輸上面我只要搭乘"},{"start":8818.527,"end":8835.994,"text":"意外我不敢講但是只要大家按照規矩走那個意外發生的比例應該可以降到很低避免下一個遺憾避免下一個事故再發生這個才是大家對運安會的期許所以主委我的意思就要告訴你就是說齁不用做媳婦啦"},{"start":8840.489,"end":8857.688,"text":"你就很勇敢的告訴大家你要怎麼做,那是你行政部門的事情啊你做部長你沒錢,你要趕去想辦法,要去行政院爭取要發揮部長的能力,要不然我們請這麼多部長是要幹什麼就是要叫他們快點,這是人民、社民的問題,你要趕去想辦法去處理"},{"start":8859.049,"end":8885.53,"text":"然後呢時間主席已經站起來了比如說我不知道你們這樣調查出來之後如果這裡面涉及你看齁很多那個那個營建相關的這些公安啊我們都會用那個採購法101條把它移送對不對這些廠商怕得要死啊那運輸安全調查報告同樣一樣要這樣告訴行政機關或者你們想辦法自己來做處置就是對於如果像這些"},{"start":8887.343,"end":8893.617,"text":"運輸事故發生而涉及到這是施工的不良偷工減料施工設計不好等等"},{"start":8894.702,"end":8915.073,"text":"這個也應該要這樣做嘛我是不知道現在有沒有啦我只是舉個例子告訴你運安會應該要做到這樣這是人民的信任這是人民對運安會這個專業單位的信任所以我們要架構起運安會的權威跟專業這個才能夠確保人民的安全所有的行政機關這裡我覺得運安會說的他如果不緊張最好他每天去拜拜啦不然他準備要露台啊我跟你說"},{"start":8921.277,"end":8921.637,"text":"秋洛華委員花言"},{"start":8948.647,"end":8951.592,"text":"謝謝主席有請主委請林主委"},{"start":8957.578,"end":8983.523,"text":"主委好在我們運輸安全調查委員會的書面報告一剛開始有指出自從108年8月1號成立至今那運輸安全調查委員會執掌重大的事故調查還有透過系統性的調查完整發掘可能造勢的原因還有安全風險提出改善建議以防止類似的事件再次發生那本席這邊想要請教主委那通常調查報告還有改進的建議事項"},{"start":8985.043,"end":9012.813,"text":"如果主管機關不重視或是不認同的話運安會要怎麼因應主管機關不重視我們在行政院的定期檢討會裡面我會在會中提報行政院是管他的他會叫那個目的式軟機關要求他會譬如說台鐵他會列一個專案請他來報是那我這邊提到的是主管機關不重視或是不認同運安我們運安會就是"},{"start":9013.843,"end":9041.372,"text":"做出來的報告那你們要怎麼做因應我覺得我剛講這個我們會往上報因為我們也是行政機關他也是行政機關我們我們跟他是平行那由上面的行政院來督導他來跟他講沒有錯是因為這邊有說就是院會提出改善監議防止類似的事件再次發生那要是再次發生因為我們又開始看到有類似的交通事故的話那對於調查技術還有作業流程有沒有檢討和也有調整"},{"start":9043.137,"end":9063.863,"text":"目前為止還沒有實在難行,但是就剛委員提的,譬如說,譬如說水路,水路有漁水人的港口漁水人的一些作業管理的問題的時候,他一直在發生在發生,那我們就會跟交通部講說你這個制度有問題,他現在已經啟動了,像這種的,行政院也跟他講說這個是確實嚴重的問題。所以只是做到告知嗎?"},{"start":9064.703,"end":9087.223,"text":"對,他會告訴他沒有就是提出其他專業相關你們的建議以防止憾事再次發生我們甚至在去年去年由我本人跟我們的水路組的組長到交通部去拜會次長跟他開一個聯席會議那也告訴他問題之所在他們也嚇他們的次長部長也嚇了一跳說啊怎麼會這麼這麼嚴重或什麼他們已經啟動了像這種有得到預許的效果"},{"start":9092.162,"end":9113.619,"text":"OK那運安會解凍的解凍案書那報告中指出113年4月16號以擬定重大運輸事故之範圍修正草案出稿然後草降低啟動調查門檻還有擴大調查範圍方向調整那這邊要請教主委那在本席去年本席的選區桃園八德"},{"start":9114.179,"end":9139.089,"text":"就是有發生環保志工團千萬宜蘭旅遊那不幸有37人輕重傷的遊覽車翻覆交通案件事故那像這樣不幸的重大交通事故是什麼條件不符合調查的門檻還有範圍?這個案子有調查嗎?有有啟動對喔就是太平山方向這個對因為你寫這個我們的名稱不一樣不好意思這個有啟動調查對"},{"start":9140.396,"end":9166.825,"text":"這個有啟動調查那因為會有很多調查案件超過一年那這樣的調查效率是什麼原因造成的請主委說明剛剛前面也有提到啦因為我們一般外面的人就以為是說這不是很簡單幾個月就調查出來嗎事實上我們是有一定的誠信其實國外的一些調查其實也是這樣子但是對社會關注的案子我們當然都會特別加速我們也會加班然後調查把人力調拍過來"},{"start":9168.399,"end":9186.861,"text":"所以一年是最快的時間嗎?我們這個航空有分六級嘛,水路有分三級,那麼鐵道跟公路都分兩級。一級是18個月,二級12個月就調查完成。那特殊的案子會就剛剛報告過了,我們會加速腳步。"},{"start":9188.671,"end":9215.2,"text":"這樣子看下來最快是一年嗎?通常案件調查下來都至少要一年的時間?一般都是至少一年因為這個整個調查的階段齁這個階段我跟委員報告一下比如說我們如果把這個調查分成三大階段齁有調查階段有報告斷水階段有審查階段那在現場說證階段有比如說我機動小組去收集資料然後那個證據然後協調資料的收集要歸納"},{"start":9216.44,"end":9236.53,"text":"那有時候譬如說有發生事故我們去訪談當事人一訪談就訪談兩三個月因為因為碰到困難嘛什麼樣的困難就是就是有些人有個人隱私啊或什麼他會害怕嘛等等那那譬如說在報告撰寫的時候又跟著說要那議員會有想過要縮短這個流程嗎啊議員會有想過要縮短這個期程嗎這個流程對"},{"start":9240.712,"end":9245.017,"text":"主委您提到人數,那運安會的預算,預算原額是93人,UAP的原額就有71人,請問流動目前人員的流動率如何?"},{"start":9256.989,"end":9260.27,"text":"目前還好啦但是我們會有捉襟見肘確實人力不足沒有錯所以我們現在總理很多常常都在加班在調查"},{"start":9286.315,"end":9306.119,"text":"謝謝委員關心這個是正確的我們要的幾個委員我們通知他來interview他衣服很好可是他說不要我要去台積電台積電薪水比較高我找不到人那主委要不要透過鏡頭喊話一下就是說目前我們運安會非常需要人才謝謝委員好謝謝邱樂華委員接下來請游浩委員發言"},{"start":9325.405,"end":9327.527,"text":"謝謝主席,有請主委好,現在林主委"},{"start":9342.708,"end":9361.65,"text":"阿維好林主委你好那本席其實剛才就是一直的我在聽您的就是回答那其實過去來講的話您也做過這個民航局的副局長那其實在相關航空或是海運等等以及在研究方面您也是專業那"},{"start":9363.972,"end":9388.001,"text":"其實聽起來到現在,大家許多的委員在聚焦的,包括邱樂豪委員剛才所關心的議題,大家其實大同小異。就是如何能夠來協助這個或是在關心運安會,怎麼樣能夠更加符合大眾的期待。那其實剛才林佩祥委員也提到,那其實在運安會本身在權力跟調查範圍之內,"},{"start":9389.241,"end":9401.034,"text":"是不是不行查、不能查、不敢查在金門撞船案的部分為何運安會沒有辦法主動進入調查請主委回答應該沒有什麼"},{"start":9404.382,"end":9431.444,"text":"那時候你在接受記者訪問時就是也直接講這個非運輸安全事故本來是建議如果說運安會在於一個事故的調查有他的專業性在本身就應該要直接的接入調查還因為大家是專業那不要讓政治凌駕專業"},{"start":9432.785,"end":9454.5,"text":"可不可以應該沒有政治領教專業嘛,我們從來沒有考慮過,我們獨立專業該調查就要調查好,沒關係,反正我在本期還是以這樣子期許,因為相信預案會請許多在這裡的,包括各位長官,都是在許多領域的傑出的,不管是實務或研究上都非常傑出的人士"},{"start":9455.02,"end":9475.891,"text":"那所以說在於運安會本身的業務來講大家都還是有諸多期待那同樣的剛才在終結的部分因為也還沒有結案那許多的委員也提到了時間的標準那想請問一下在精進這些所謂立案調查的這些事故來講如何能夠更精進以及更加速"},{"start":9478.156,"end":9498.613,"text":"我剛剛報告過如果是比較社會關注度比較高我們當然會加速啦我們人力會調配啦其實主委我跟您回復一下其實這句話你剛才重複很多次但是如果說今天來講是人力還是經費還是影響到整體的調查量能那其實就需要提出看如何來去精進"},{"start":9499.614,"end":9523.78,"text":"那因為其實就舉例來講這個資料上面大家都有看到就一個竹塘鄉公所還有一個幼童專車還有交通路有撞車禍的一個公路事故那他在去年的11月21號那在今年還在進行調查到明年5月才能夠最終完成調查報告將近一年半到兩年的時間"},{"start":9524.4,"end":9535.547,"text":"沒有錯,任何一個案子都有一定的標準程序對,都有一定的標準所以這個到底是人力不足因為目前編制來講20人加71總共91人那在人力上面是不足"},{"start":9537.113,"end":9563.805,"text":"基本上應該是不足的像我們公務我舉個例子像我們公務組一個一般的案子齁一般一個案子一個案子大概1.6到1.7的人力單量所以他事實上調查不是就一個人來調查所以主委我本期還是建議人力不足的話就看如何反應如何精進因為其實我相信運營安會大家都還是有期待在座那麼多的長官他們也需要多一點的研究人力多一些的就是在"},{"start":9564.605,"end":9589.853,"text":"這些不管是專業的或是約聘的人士他們能夠協助讓報告有更快的產出因為其實在許多的重大事故就像被列在上面的時候那他所代表的就是一定是社會所關注的嘛那社會所關注的不會在一年兩年還其實這樣子來講其實第一那個時間點大家本來都一直在關注這不是在拖時間這是希望能夠趕快來協助這些案子有更清楚的說而且他所涵蓋的面向需要公通的機關那麼多"},{"start":9590.453,"end":9606.34,"text":"那所以你剛才有提到說那這樣子要同仁加班我相信本席跟許多委員在這裡不是要同仁來去做加班來解決這問題而是在運安會來講在人力不足上專業人才不足上如何能夠用更高的一個薪水能夠去請他們來比如說他們去台積電這樣就結束了"},{"start":9608.041,"end":9623.281,"text":"我是希望說這些人才怎麼樣能夠到運安會來怎麼樣協助這個量能來去做改善能夠讓許多的一些專業的研究包括能夠更快的能夠出來以回應社會大眾的期待我是希望主委能夠去思考這個部分對謝謝委員的指導那預計如果這個部分來精進要怎麼做"},{"start":9625.285,"end":9627.747,"text":"謝謝有號委員請林建琦委員"},{"start":9665.674,"end":9682.108,"text":"蘇組長"},{"start":9682.688,"end":9708.716,"text":"還有曾組長有一些東西我們想做個討論那所以也請兩位組長這邊是不是如果我們講到的這個業務上可以有些討論的話也請這邊幫我補充一下主委是這樣有件事本來是沒有想提可是因為前面的郵號委員這邊提過了所以我就也跟著提那我知道您因為在非安的部分很專業那這整個組織也是從非安這邊"},{"start":9710.536,"end":9738.051,"text":"轉型那也期待在整個運輸方面做得更好所以這是我為什麼今天也想來跟大家做個討論所以剛才由浩委員講到之前海巡署的就是跟我們知道金門撞船的這個事件那當然在第一階段其實那個時候討論的很多那我這邊其實早上也很感謝你們聯絡的人我有跟大家做一些交流那我說第二階段我們的觀光船不是後來被就是大陸友上去做一個檢查嗎"},{"start":9739.167,"end":9768.507,"text":"那我在想說那如果觀光船那個時候沒有大陸要上來檢查然後我們不要說逃逸啦我們就也不願意讓他們檢查的時候那那時候如果觀光船跑的話然後大陸船追的話他可能又變成另外一件事情那這件事情到時候應該怎麼辦那當然還會有很多段因為中華民國在管很多事情都分成很多段那這個很多段中間的一個媒合就會有一些問題"},{"start":9769.367,"end":9791.87,"text":"那為什麼會這樣講呢?因為我25歲的時候就已經考上觀光局的這個我拿到了那個觀光局的這個動力小船的執照那但是因為你們的這個依據的法規裡面就是說300噸以上的你們才會處理所以我經常會想說那如果在台灣沿海有狀況的時候那到底誰可以真正來救我"},{"start":9793.931,"end":9820.202,"text":"然後最近呢我自己也是帆船選手所以我對於海域非常的關心那我早上聽起來說哇天啊那海域的那個安全事件這個我們現在應該會處理的可能比較無力然後能夠解決的是最少的所以我想在這邊未雨綢繆那因為在水域我們需要很多的這個體力所以我也常常在路上練習"},{"start":9820.902,"end":9843.754,"text":"那這個我常常在公路騎自行車那所以在3月22號總質詢的時候我也跟院長提到了自行車那個相關的這個問題所以我今天有兩個請命齁一個是長步道運輸安全之規劃建議那早上也有委員這邊提到雖然你們都是針對已發生的重大事件做調查"},{"start":9844.734,"end":9871.803,"text":"那這個我在國外的很多的博物館也看到很多沉船那大家都想知道沉船的原因那真的調查出來其實對於後續那個海域的了解或海域的變化其實是會有很好的協助那所以運安會做出來的這個一些調查結果確實能夠給後續的很多幫忙但是如果能夠有些東西未雨綢繆的去處理那可能就讓很多人能夠"},{"start":9872.843,"end":9900.12,"text":"減少很多人在那個危險的狀況當中這是我很期待的所以在3月22號我有跟院長這邊請命就是說長步道的這個安全我待會可以秀幾張照片給各位看一下那如果可以其實可不可以幫我們協助一下就是自行車我們現在雖然喊得很大那之前觀光局也有觀光署也有一些公告但是說實在自行車常常是在一個很危險的狀態上在台灣"},{"start":9901.321,"end":9902.623,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":9916.34,"end":9918.801,"text":"第二項請問就是我們可不可以研究臺灣的福爾摩沙島的"},{"start":9938.647,"end":9967.378,"text":"水域的浪跟流對水域安全之規劃建議我們近海就好了就是臺灣的近海區你知道我們在臺灣的近海區唯一對我們的浪跟流目前有研究的是英國人在上上世紀所研究的資料所以那個運安會可不可以在不僅是在水域部分你們那個凍結案的很少那可不可以未雨綢繆的幫我們在水域的部分可以給我們一些安全的參考"},{"start":9968.158,"end":9987.366,"text":"這是我一個建議那最後可不可以要求那個運安會給我一項資料就是你們在水域從自從變成運安會要處理水域的相關事件可以給我一個表列跟內容我想了解一下目前你們沒有辦法處理跟結案的這個水域事件有哪一些或許我們可以再進一步來探討好謝謝謝謝昭薇謝謝好謝謝薇謝謝"},{"start":9996.302,"end":9996.782,"text":"林信得主委"},{"start":10016.426,"end":10034.132,"text":"主委好 主委本席要特別跟您就ADAS先進駕駛輔助系統也就是我們所謂的自動駕車系統這樣子的一個事故來跟你做討論喔臺灣跟其他國家最大的一個不同在你的報告裡面有寫到是什麼針對這個自動駕駛輔助系統其實有"},{"start":10040.427,"end":10043.108,"text":"臺灣跟其他歐美國家最大的不同是因為我們有所謂的緩撞車"},{"start":10067.961,"end":10067.981,"text":"三、"},{"start":10094.707,"end":10114.096,"text":"三百四十七件那有幾件疑似是使用自動下駛輔助系統事實上三百四十七件裡面有五十趴是三百四十七件裡有百分之大概有一半他是車子本身有裝ADAS的然後裝ADAS那一部分有大概有五十二趴左右齁"},{"start":10115.509,"end":10133.495,"text":"他當時是有開的對所以有一半以上對不對對對對三百多件有一半以上就是將近快兩百件是用這種自動駕駛輔助系統然後有撞的那你今天的報告在第三頁第四點裡面也提到其中一個案例就去年的11月30號"},{"start":10135.035,"end":10149.001,"text":"自用小客車在國道1號北上的路段因為造成前面的工程緩撞車的一個撞上然後12月開始來做一個調查今年7月會了解事實的資料報告"},{"start":10150.356,"end":10164.41,"text":"本席其實跟交通委員會在過去在去年也就已經有討論緩撞車被撞的事故為什麼因為這一年有一兩百件啊你剛剛自己也親自承認了一年有一兩百件所以這問題大不大本席認為蠻大的"},{"start":10165.931,"end":10194.438,"text":"如果說一年有一兩百件的話那代表是說這樣的一個事故不是單一而是可能各廠牌的自動駕駛輔助系統對於這個緩撞車都很難辨認那很多人都已經提出來甚至媒體都有報導了那我們現在想問因為去年的代理主委有講是說車輛管理範圍在交通部啊馬上被批評之後又講是說會收集相關資料跟交通部來盤點法規那我想請教現在運安會到底有沒有在做這一件事情"},{"start":10196.147,"end":10202.216,"text":"要檢討到什麼時候?要什麼時候開始檢討?什麼時候才能夠真真正正讓國人了解到?"},{"start":10213.789,"end":10223.777,"text":"因為你們現在運輸安全調查委員會立案調查但是天天上國道的這些承包商在緩衝車上面施工的人員緩撞車前面施工的人員還是提心吊膽啊為什麼會有緩撞車"},{"start":10230.253,"end":10246.707,"text":"是因為以前在國道上面施工的人員他其實施工來講非常的緊張那後來造成很多的這種車輛的一個致命的狀況之後交通部大夢初醒才覺得說哇真的很嚴重所以才強制國道施工要有緩撞車這邊來"},{"start":10248.849,"end":10273.896,"text":"保護施工人員的安全那就沒有想到因為緩撞車的一個出現然後現在有自動駕駛的輔助系統反而很多的駕駛者他可能便宜行事或說他可能沒有遵守這個使用規定當然這個是駕駛的責任我們予以追究但是重點在於是說會不會現在有個盲點就是自動駕駛的輔助系統確實沒有辦法辨認出緩撞車也導致於說他完全沒有減速就直接撞上去"},{"start":10274.716,"end":10280.886,"text":"那一年已經有一兩百件可能疑似自動下車服務系統的狀況那我們到底什麼時候要解決"},{"start":10282.487,"end":10304.838,"text":"我所知道交通部已經在研議已經在討論A大是車輛的一些設備的管理不是啊他們已經開了三次會不過我如果這個太慢了對重點是太慢了還有還不季節還有每天國道都還在施工那還有重點在於是你覺得這個越南會沒有責任嗎我覺得這個越南會才有重大責任為什麼一年有一兩百件"},{"start":10306.363,"end":10328.215,"text":"一兩百件這個車直接撞上去那這每一個車可能都是一個重大的一個車禍重大人命事故啊我跟委員報告我們今年6月4日這個報告出來之後我們就會緊鑼密鼓會還有半年時間我會跟交通部開會跟他講說我會不會太慢主委主委你敢說我不敢聽拜託你真的你這句話我拜託你收斷去真的不要"},{"start":10335.639,"end":10357.94,"text":"對不要吸皮笑臉我很實在話講本席今天為什麼會在這裡在這質詢就是因為媒體已經報導而且國內大家也看到台灣跟其他國家比較不一樣為什麼其他國家沒有這種撞上就是因為這個蠍子車在其他國家可能比較沒有這樣的一個車型那會不會是這些車商的這個雷達裡面沒有判讀這個車子"},{"start":10359.534,"end":10386.645,"text":"那除了說找這些車商幾大智慧車、電動車的這個車商來去做討論說是不是應該要把這樣的一個車型納入他們的行車電腦裡面去做判斷找他們來喝咖啡但是現在還沒有一個強制力那本席也想了解或是說國人大家也想了解說到底是不是這樣的原因那以及每年都會發生你剛剛自己講的數據都有200件左右的這種直接追撞的事故"},{"start":10387.947,"end":10408.354,"text":"那你如果說今天沒有辦法有一個明確的不管是法令的一個討論不管是交通部大家的討論的話你沒有辦法阻止啊每天只能就是看祈禱大家不要當成是下一個受害者但是請主委向洪孟楷委員這邊說明主委本席特別特別要求特別要求第三頁"},{"start":10411.397,"end":10436.347,"text":"你第4點已經講了今年7月事實資料要報告還明年5月才完成最終調查報告現在4月然後你跟我講明年5月完成最終調查報告說實在這在受到喔我剛剛已經報告過大家都在上太空我們不要我們的運安會還在殺豬公我事後我把一些詳細資料給你報告"},{"start":10437.765,"end":10459.519,"text":"不只跟我報告,重點是怎麼樣提出來,然後防範,然後找大家來討論是是是,沒問題那請提供書面給所有的本會委員是是,謝謝主委,本期會繼續追好不好,拜託我是幫大家請命不管是幫國道的施工人員,不管是幫我們國道上的駕駛者找出問題,解決問題好不好是,謝謝謝謝"},{"start":10465.009,"end":10465.849,"text":"謝謝紅夢凱委員接下來請黃國昌委員好請主委"},{"start":10494.058,"end":10513.157,"text":"主委在上上屆國會的時候成立國家運安會我是大力支持為什麼大力支持那個時候發生一件大家都很心痛的事情就是普悠瑪的事故從普悠瑪的事故以後這個國家這個社會認知到獨立的調查"},{"start":10514.378,"end":10529.603,"text":"有多重要特別是在有關於交通主管機關他們針對會牽涉到非常多型的安全問題的時候怎麼樣獨立、客觀、專業提出意見這是我們當初對運安會的期許"},{"start":10531.784,"end":10550.879,"text":"我今天要請教的問題是說在普悠瑪事故以後台鐵推出了一個行列監控4.0那這個行列監控4.0卻跟科發基金我們的國科會要了6千萬要了6千萬的補助"},{"start":10552.08,"end":10577.253,"text":"要6千萬的補助也不是台鐵自己做我們台鐵彷彿成為一個轉包中心去拿6千萬了以後轉交給一個公司叫做李立系統公司這件事情主委知不知道我不是很清楚但是如果不是很清楚的話請回去搞清楚"},{"start":10578.51,"end":10605.988,"text":"你如果不是很清楚的話請回去搞清楚他這個案子是這樣子他在去年的1月13號有召開研討會他邀請產學界的專家還有國科會台北局都有討論他目前這個還是屬於測試階段我就簡單問一個事嘛從運安會的角度來講花了6千萬搞了這個東西有用還是沒有用"},{"start":10607.438,"end":10617.614,"text":"有辦法滿足我們當初對於台鐵所提出來的質疑有沒有辦法真正的能夠提升行車的安全"},{"start":10619.16,"end":10643.001,"text":"從運安會的角度來講主委也說了嘛運安會開了研討會嘛那天研討會大家的意見是什麼台鐵搞得這個行控4.0好棒棒大幅提升列車行駛保護乘客的安全性還是根本沒有用花拳秀腿浪費納稅的錢圖利特定的廠商你們研討會的結論是什麼"},{"start":10647.423,"end":10676.465,"text":"我們把一些紀錄給台鐵局參考我認為這個還沒有達到真正的效果什麼叫做還沒有達到這個效果有用沒有用啊目前看起來是沒有沒有顯示這個就是我今天要提這個質詢啊最主要的目的花了6000萬補助了一個莫名其妙的廠商結果沒有用納稅的錢啊不是這樣花的運安會站在你們主管機關的立場"},{"start":10677.864,"end":10705.029,"text":"就要站出來告訴國人運安會反對台鐵這樣胡搞瞎搞扛納稅人資卡花了6000萬做了什麼東西出來從運安會的角度來講根本沒有用這個是我當初期待我們成立運安會的時候運安會要本於獨立要本於專業的立場告訴全體國人的事情我為什麼這樣講"},{"start":10708.016,"end":10721.503,"text":"這個履歷系統政治關係很好拉了一堆政治人物幫他們背書啊結果搞到他們自己的創辦人自己都跑去國務發會裡面負責亞洲矽谷計畫結果我們的經濟部2020年給他什麼給他優良廠商"},{"start":10731.821,"end":10745.131,"text":"獲獎的理由是什麼我跟主委報告一下主委說你不是很清楚嗎我報告給你聽獲獎的理由是他有參與美國佛羅里達州Jacksonville市自駕快捷系統"},{"start":10746.4,"end":10774.103,"text":"我看了這個覺得很了不起啊我國的廠商竟然打入了美國的自駕車市場啊這件事情我們一定要好好的鼓勵啊結果我那時候回到民間社會啊我接到檢舉啊說這根本就是假的這得獎的理由從頭到尾是假的為了實事求是啊我主動我們協會跟美國的Jacksonville Transportation Authority聯絡"},{"start":10776.404,"end":10799.27,"text":"說欸這個李立啊參加你們的請問參加的狀況是什麼結果主委你知道我得到的回覆是什麼嗎這是錯的這個是虛偽不實的This is false這個公司啊跟我們市的這個自駕車的系統沒有任何契約關係也沒有參與結果我們能夠進軍國際市場是好事啊"},{"start":10803.854,"end":10817.268,"text":"拿在外國捏造的理由台灣政府還頒獎給他這就是天大的笑話結果拿了這個獎的關懷拿了什麼事情在國內拿了一堆補助"},{"start":10818.736,"end":10839.543,"text":"結果自駕車臺南的宗旨臺中的宗旨都拿了好幾千萬現在台鐵的這個行控4.0連你們自己運安會啊我掌握到的狀況炮聲隆隆啊對他的專業性可行性安全性跟現在的系統是不是重疊"},{"start":10841.092,"end":10867.452,"text":"能不能夠增加輔助的功能全面批判那我就有興趣啦如果是全面批判的話花了6千多萬到底是在扛誰之愷啊主席站起來了我尊重主席啊請主席會後從運安會專業的角度排鐵行控4.0到底有沒有用還是亂花錢提出運安會的書面報告可以嗎"},{"start":10868.578,"end":10868.838,"text":"好謝謝好謝謝委員謝謝"},{"start":10899.892,"end":10901.653,"text":"好,謝謝黃國昌委員,請楊瓊英委員楊瓊英發言,謝謝主席,請主委請主委委員好"},{"start":10923.777,"end":10939.995,"text":"委員會是社會大眾非常期待的所以因此我們要討論這個議題是運輸事故的調查法律是針對於一定數量的人員的傷亡"},{"start":10940.776,"end":10941.076,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10961.431,"end":10987.939,"text":"各個運具的一個系統的重大運輸事故呢相當有爭議相當有爭議所以換句話說你們的角色非常的重要那民眾認為他是重大但是我們認為不是比如說二月份在宜蘭東山發生的這個珍珠一路的這個事情那你一台頭版車就撞了十幾台就這樣子"},{"start":10989.219,"end":11008.238,"text":"導致人員的傷亡所以本席要請教這算不算是重大的運輸事故請教因為目前社會大眾跟你們的認知差距非常的大本席不希望我們民眾所需求的是得不到政府的一個資源請做說明"},{"start":11010.087,"end":11033.6,"text":"這案子我同仁跟我講這案子沒有啟動沒有立案所以我要告訴你這沒有立案但是社會大眾認為這是你們好好冷靜去思考接下來因為我們希望的單位是民眾所需而且他認為是怎麼樣那你們是不是有調整的空間有沒有調整空間不要讓社會大眾無依無靠"},{"start":11034.58,"end":11057.687,"text":"這是非常重要所以我們也看到很多的運輸潛在的風險那我們是不是要怎麼樣什麼時間點去介入啟動調查的門檻跟範圍這是本席跟你討論的第一個議題你們去思考很多的案子社會當中認為他是重大而且傷害的那麼大損傷的那麼多"},{"start":11059.926,"end":11075.169,"text":"但是我們都認為不是所以我也希望你們去盤點你們家你的範圍你們的量能到底是怎麼樣去盤點看看好不好因為我本席一再說的是民眾需要的你盯一個民眾用不到的你盯那個要做什麼"},{"start":11076.124,"end":11103.471,"text":"對不對好不好你們去盤點嘛多久時間可以告訴本席你們有調整的這個方向是調整或者是不調整那這個方向多久時間盤點出來我們目前是用兩個方向啦就是我們重大運輸事故有一個範圍他是法律規定的那我們才會修法那修法我會調整他啟動調查的但是你要先把啟動調查先拿出來啊我會擴大他的調查範圍"},{"start":11104.571,"end":11108.797,"text":"現在就是沒有辦法應對民眾的需求嘛,所以我給你功課,你們去調整嘛,多久時間?"},{"start":11124.984,"end":11126.805,"text":"本席要請教的也就是你們運安的這個費用比如說"},{"start":11149.145,"end":11177.056,"text":"你的水路事故調查243萬4千你的飛航445萬2千你的業務調查646萬6千那你除了運安會除了執行調查之外你也必須要拿出改善跟建議啊以及追蹤跟成效啊所以本行告訴你說整體交通的運輸改善案件你們去年你們去年8月份是65.2%"},{"start":11178.857,"end":11178.997,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11199.093,"end":11205.054,"text":"本席也把你的預算告訴你那本席強調重點是在怎麼樣建議跟追蹤改善的這個成果你順便資料給本席最後一個議題我功課給你自駕剛剛你回答我們的委員說我們國內的車子還沒有那麼跟國際怎麼樣錯了錯了"},{"start":11226.567,"end":11245.898,"text":"主委我們國內是因為沒有完整的自駕車的規範以及防災機制這個就是我一直給你建議的運安會應該要有建議那我們人民都已經有這個需求而且在社會在大陸上面都在執行了"},{"start":11247.026,"end":11262.916,"text":"對不對那我們要怎麼辦呢你到目前為止你還沒有完整的自駕車的規範跟防災機制啊那你總是至少你要拿出世界各國他們目前執行中的嘛你們去研討嘛對不對"},{"start":11264.675,"end":11292.811,"text":"主委再請提供書面資料和相關報告其他主委對不對你要提出自駕車事故防範改善的方案的可行性嘛對不對你應該要因應未來我們自駕車趨勢發展的相關規劃嘛你應該要設一個專案好好去討論嘛這才是民眾要的啊你不能說你現在沒有跟世界接軌誰沒有跟世界接軌"},{"start":11294.782,"end":11303.409,"text":"對不對?路上已經在跑了沒有跟世界接軌那什麼叫做跟世界接軌?對不對?哪有一個運安會這樣子的一個論點呢?這就是我結論跟你說的民眾已經在執行民眾有需求運安會應該挪一點時間跟能量去討論去建議去綜合規劃嘛對不對?這才是民眾所需的啊"},{"start":11323.107,"end":11334.981,"text":"針對於自駕車的部分本席也要求你們去提出自駕車事故改善的一個規範的可行性改善方案的可行性可以嗎"},{"start":11335.985,"end":11336.906,"text":"謝謝楊瓊英委員下一位請羅志強委員"},{"start":11370.99,"end":11392.904,"text":"主席有請主委請您主委請問主委你有掌握到上個禮拜一個新聞波音工程師控787客機製造超捷徑恐解體墜機呼籲全球停飛這個新聞你有看到嗎"},{"start":11394.024,"end":11408.038,"text":"知道根據報導有夢幻客機之稱的波音787被波音公司工程師他今年1月向美國聯邦航空管理局提出指控"},{"start":11409.339,"end":11434.914,"text":"稱自己發現波音787存在飛機結構完整性的工程問題那波音在787的機身組裝過程中減少步驟造成機件機身零件在組裝時未能正確填補微小縫隙此舉可能縮短飛機壽命而且隨著飛機老化風險會變成災難性的故障那美國"},{"start":11436.335,"end":11464.791,"text":"聯邦航空總署證實在進行相關調查出席參議院國土安全委員會聽證會被問及的時候他的回答是就他們目前所知全世界787機隊都要注意需要檢查縫隙並且確保不會提前發生故障我想請教一下主委運安會統計當中臺灣的航空公司機隊當中目前有多少數量該型號的飛機"},{"start":11466.428,"end":11489.047,"text":"好像我了解說好像沒有沒有啊主委你掌握資訊有問題喔我們的統計目前台灣現有的8家我請航空組的組長來沒關係啊我數字對不對你告訴我啦8家民用航空公司中長榮有7879型4架78710型11架我不知道我的數字對不對正確"},{"start":11491.109,"end":11514.578,"text":"然後華航這就出現一個問題我就要問我們的主委你知道華航在2022年美國參議員葛禮翰來訪台後曾經當面跟蔡英文總統提及希望台灣能夠採購波音787客機然後這個新聞你知道嗎你知道當時聯合報報導揭露之後你知道總統府怎麼回應嗎"},{"start":11521.701,"end":11536.272,"text":"總統府痛斥聯合報破壞國人外交工作的信心傷害臺美情誼其心可異外交部深感遺憾連總統府都出來譴責聯合報不實報導結果聯合報說買24架後來買幾架請問你知道後來買幾架波音787"},{"start":11548.154,"end":11572.047,"text":"不知道啊 運安會這麼重要的事情都不知道我跟你講啦後來8月宣布訂購16架波音7872025年開始交付然後單缸中運量的新世代客機主力2023年5月再加購8架16加8是多少架可惡的總統府啊"},{"start":11575.435,"end":11577.562,"text":"聯合辦24下完全講對了竟然可以譴責"},{"start":11583.186,"end":11612.504,"text":"那我現在回頭問當時媒體報導就是有點擔心七八七是不是我們應該掌握他的飛航狀況免得危害台灣人民的非安問題所以聯合報才報導有24架採購總統府可以說你運安會如果覺得七八七你要背書你可以說大家放心七八七進來我可以背書你要不要背書可不可以背書主委七八七安全你可以背書可不可以"},{"start":11613.599,"end":11640.624,"text":"我們要先去瞭解狀況好我告訴你你可以要瞭解狀況是一個說法我為安全背書是一個說法我不為安全背書也是一個說法但是這個總統府跟外交部竟然可以譴責聯合報一個正確的報導這是一個非安該有的態度現在現在全世界關心七八七阿要不要謝謝聯合報聯合報報導這麼正確24架欸完全如他所說欸"},{"start":11642.136,"end":11663.104,"text":"所以回頭我就要講今天我們當然運安會很關心我們的運輸安全但是說真的我知道你們有你們的無奈現在很多東西都是政治凌駕專業你光這件事情我希望運安會好好瞭解一下七八七的整個狀況好不好可不可以謝謝"},{"start":11671.124,"end":11688.472,"text":"好謝謝羅志強委員下一位請林德福委員林德福委員林德福委員不在陳雪生委員陳雪生委員陳雪生委員不在林思敏委員林思敏委員林思敏委員不在張祺凱委員請張祺凱委員"},{"start":11709.226,"end":11710.888,"text":"阿里山森林公路"},{"start":11724.53,"end":11743.802,"text":"經過15年的修復 欸 萬眾都期待喔7月1號就要全面通車了 明天 十月號就要開始迎新上路了齁可是裡面今天我想要請教主委的是 有很多安全的問題 你們到底有這樣還是沒有我們看一下 去年的這個4月"},{"start":11747.725,"end":11759.59,"text":"阿里山的森林鐵道阿有輕船落石砸到這個軌道還是靠遊客喔市警去揮手去市警還沒有發生危險今天運安會以前有掌握這個訊息嗎"},{"start":11761.448,"end":11788.425,"text":"我們有時候會接到民眾的通報確實都這個事情有時候會發生沒有錯那還好有遊客在那裡會抽對不對沒有的話就發生問題怎麼辦我們再看第二個今年的4月份剛剛才發生了有一個列車是什麼發現有這個樹倒塌還好有及時去煞車然後通報前面去清理主委你有看到一個很重要的重點嗎現在看起來這兩個案件都是要靠目測對不對"},{"start":11790.034,"end":11816.106,"text":"是不是那科技時代捏這樣安不安全尤其阿里山很多都是彎道嘛對不對他有些死角啊不能靠只有靠目測啊我要問兩件事情啊第一你發現這個問題之後有沒有去處理第二今天本席提出這個安全的這個問題我們要怎麼改善這個問題不能一直靠一直靠靠眼睛去測試啊是不是我們怎麼解決這個問題"},{"start":11818.14,"end":11840.016,"text":"你這兩條案件都是天然招的害啦天然招我們確實也有收到通報那剛剛委員提到說是不是有一些系統或是一些科技可以偵測當然是可以但是他是阿里山的設立鐵路是不是在他的主管機關是不是會投入相關的經費或預算去做對阿所以你要自己去集齊要先請他過去去集齊"},{"start":11842.097,"end":11859.091,"text":"阿里山不是只有這個嘉義之光阿全世界都矚目對不對這對台灣的觀光非常非常重要阿那老實講第一個絕對不能發生有安全問題阿點解今天本席這很清楚跟你講至少這兩個案子是非常明確的是不是那你到底要怎麼去解決這個安全的問題我們提醒住管機關說這個要注意確實"},{"start":11863.994,"end":11885.539,"text":"確實謝謝你能不能在差不多一個禮拜好不好是針對這兩個案子你要怎麼去處理好不好我給你看看下一個下一個其實四月13日花蓮大帝黨的時候隔天有發生一個很重要的事情那是即使有搶救下來主委你看一下那時候那個石頭大石頭掉下來對不對在軌道壓住嘛"},{"start":11887.145,"end":11908.099,"text":"隔天而已喔是落實的這個告警系統發揮的功能啊所以太魯閣在逃過一劫啊對不對我就在問你啊我們阿里山目前的鐵路是有預警系統啊可是那個範圍是太少了太小了對不對你今天能不能答應我趕快去幫忙多做一些啊這樣那個範圍擴大可以嗎"},{"start":11910.038,"end":11930.551,"text":"我們可以把台鐵的成功經驗就如同委員講的我們可以請他們延伸過去成功的我們就要沿用到阿里山鐵道這邊好不好這個非常非常重要這個你剛剛說你要去做一個禮拜內你完成之後你跟我講你做到什麼程度準備怎麼做好不好"},{"start":11931.371,"end":11949.383,"text":"一禮拜給我這個,可以嗎?可以喔,好。那好事,快點。是,是,謝謝。好,來,我們再看一下。這個我不曉得你有沒有掌握啦,我不曉得你調查了沒有,改進了沒有。古年的時尊,有媒體就直接爆料了。我後來去查,也有這個事情。2023年一爆料,他說一年前,2022年四月時尊。"},{"start":11953.203,"end":11972.949,"text":"阿里山這個鐵道阿因為那個操作的失誤造成了擊軌事件所以他轉側器扭曲變形就是我扣給你的地方大家看一下各位就是這個圓圈圈右邊這個圖右邊這個就是他轉側器整個就扭曲變形了左邊這個鐵道都已經凸起來了這很危險阿你們當初看到這個報導有沒有去掌握?有改善嗎?"},{"start":11985.074,"end":11987.337,"text":"為什麼不是營運列車嗎?他是鐵道地面出現這個問題"},{"start":12000.199,"end":12006.661,"text":"所以本期今天做了兩個非常具體的這個要求第一個就是市井這個系統目前真的是還是不夠的那你今天答應了喔所以你一個禮拜內把它提出來說你怎麼做把資料送到本期"},{"start":12029.049,"end":12032.501,"text":"向這個安全都要注意阿里山是"},{"start":12034.634,"end":12059.71,"text":"加益之光他明天開始有新的這個車列車已經要啟動了7月1號前面都要啟動這對整個台灣的觀光推向國際非常非常重要其實我們有共同在推動這個國際的這個觀光風華在線對台灣是好的那一方面拜託一下安全一定要做到好不好一個禮拜內相關的這個調查跟改善的這個計畫送到本席辦公室好不好謝謝謝謝主委在線主委預案會一週內回應張啟開委員謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":12072.793,"end":12097.97,"text":"謝謝張祺凱委員下一位請蘇清泉委員蘇清泉委員不在請王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員不在請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在請徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員徐欣盈委員不在請鄭振田委員鄭振前委員鄭振前委員不在"},{"start":12100.68,"end":12119.794,"text":"登記質詢委員均與發言完畢做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員黃建豪黃仁委員所提書面質詢列入記錄並刊登公報委員與質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未答覆部分請運安會盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":12123.404,"end":12128.671,"text":"現在審查國家運輸安全調查委員會預算凍結案計6案,請議事人員宣讀。"},{"start":12134.155,"end":12161.009,"text":"討論此項審查113年度中央政府總預算關於國家運輸安全調查委員會預算凍結案計6案。以下一至六國家運輸安全調查委員會含檢送決議一派員出國計劃預算凍結五十萬元書面報告案決議二一般行政預算凍結八百萬元書面報告案決議三運輸事故調查預算凍結十分之一書面報告案決議四"},{"start":12161.989,"end":12163.67,"text":"以上6案請問各位委員有無意見"},{"start":12192.694,"end":12212.447,"text":"均同意動之提報用會。針對本日會議做以下決議。討論事項所列國家運輸安全調查委員會預算凍結案計6案均同意動之提報用會。本日議程處理完畢。散會。"},{"start":12243.979,"end":12244.682,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"15833","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15833","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a6852af675131898e7338b590722cf65bc4b3be8d109af184be464c3cceeb2bfe0ad5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-22","start_time":"2024-04-22T08:31:08+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-04-22T13:20:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":17332,"委員發言時間":"08:31:08 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SPEAKER_33","start":16597.35284375,"end":16597.757843749998}],"whisperx":[{"start":14.902,"end":15.265,"text":"委員會委員會"},{"start":1743.685,"end":1760.078,"text":"初席委員已逐法定人數現在開會請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全體委員會議議事錄時間113年4月15日星期一九時一分至十五時三十六分"},{"start":1760.698,"end":1780.888,"text":"‎4月17日星期三、9時至12時48分地點群行樓801會議室出席委員陳昭芝等15人、列席委員洪生翰等35人、列席官員4月15日衛生福利部部長薛瑞元等相關人員、4月17日環境部部長薛富慎等相關人員、主席王兆吉委員喻敏"},{"start":1781.628,"end":1798.932,"text":"4月15日報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定邀請衛生福利部部長、內政部、法務部、教育部、數位發展部國家通訊傳播委員會、文化部就數位技術普及造成兒少性剝削案件增加之因應作為與現行政策檢討進行專題報告．並備質詢本日會議由衛生福利部部長報告後"},{"start":1805.313,"end":1833.749,"text":"委員陳昭芝等29人提出質詢軍經衛生福利部部長數位發展部資源管理司副司長曾文芳法務部檢察司副司長簡美惠教育部國民及學前教育署副署長戴淑芬內政部警政署防治組副組長司怡仙金融監督管理委員會證券期貨局專門委員李采珍及國家通訊傳播委員會網際網路傳播辦公室主任詹文旭及各相關主管等及習達富"},{"start":1834.549,"end":1839.853,"text":"委員陳冠廷、羅志強、牛許廷及何新淳所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報決定一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關與二中領書面答覆委員令要求期限者從其所定通過臨時提案11項4月17日邀請環境部部長、"},{"start":1856.006,"end":1863.815,"text":"經濟部、行政院國家永續發展委員會就《限速政策執行成效及加護與一般事業廢棄物減量之檢討與測定作為進行專題報告．並備質詢本日會議由環境部部長報告後委員陳昭芝等20人提出質詢軍經環境部部長及經濟部產業發展署署長連錦章"},{"start":1876.708,"end":1894.46,"text":"幾個相關主管等及其答覆委員蘇清泉所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報決定一報告及詢答完畢二委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二中內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定通過臨時提案三項宣讀完畢"},{"start":1897.959,"end":1916.025,"text":"請問委員會上次一事錄有無錯誤或遺漏之處?沒有?好,那一事錄確定本日會議議程為邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證進行專題報告．並備質詢現在介紹在場委員及列席官員陳昭芝委員林月琴委員"},{"start":1927.83,"end":1950.308,"text":"王振旭委員那我們今天這個列席的官員有環境部部長薛富聖、薛部長大氣環境司張順清司長環境保護司徐淑芷副司長水質保護司羅仁鈞副司長監測資訊司胡明輝副司長"},{"start":1956.653,"end":1983.914,"text":"國家環境研究院劉宗勇院長環境管理署林左翔副署長氣候變遷署黃偉明副署長資源循環署許志倫副署長化學物質管理署陳淑嶺副署長交通部公共運輸及監理司林福山司長"},{"start":1986.155,"end":2008.537,"text":"公路局專門委員葉士坤專門委員經濟部標準檢驗局謝漢章副局長產業發展署童建強檢任基政內政部警政署李熙和副署長警政署交通主黃義山組長"},{"start":2013.35,"end":2014.911,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生、大家早"},{"start":2028.312,"end":2044.267,"text":"今天4月22日是世界地球日那今年世界地球日的主題是地球與塑膠那也歡迎大院各位委員跟環境部一起響應簡述有我的行列"},{"start":2045.768,"end":2073.173,"text":"近年來民眾對於環境品質的要求日益提升特別關心噪音對環境的影響本部也對各類噪音的改善採取了訂定噪音管制標準以及公告10段地區禁止從事妨礙他人生活、環境安寧、行為等多元推動噪音相關的管制的工作"},{"start":2074.313,"end":2090.53,"text":"根據112年噪音澄清案件將近8萬多件,裡面事實上是以車輛噪音佔了大概將近32%為最高第二大概是營建工程大概24%"},{"start":2092.792,"end":2111.139,"text":"因為車輛噪音具有移動性且不定時產生噪音的特性容易影響我們民眾生活的安寧為了有效改善車輛噪音對民眾所造成的影響"},{"start":2112.279,"end":2131.056,"text":"那環境部呢,持續來積極推動各項的管制措施。這裡面包括從沿途管制、科技執法跟勤查、狀化等等。那特別是在沿途管制方面包括對國產車或進口車輛需要"},{"start":2135.52,"end":2155.155,"text":"檢測符合新車噪音管制標準使得掛牌上路同時也推動改裝排氣管的一個認證制度並加重夜間以及特定噪音管制區的車輛噪音違規才華的一個金額"},{"start":2158.537,"end":2176.192,"text":"地方政府利用科技執法採用聲音照相的科技來加強車輛噪音的告發當然我們同時也由民眾共同參與檢舉高噪音車輛共同落實車輛噪音的改善工作"},{"start":2184.159,"end":2187.742,"text":"目前在全台灣環境部已經裝置了210套的噪音偵測設備未來還會再偵測大概306套"},{"start":2203.276,"end":2216.156,"text":"謝謝各地方環保局配合環境部我們利用前瞻建設跟公共建設的經費來採購這些科技執法的一個工具"},{"start":2217.583,"end":2225.993,"text":"科技執法事實上它可以做前天後的執法工作同時也可以直接來量測節省我們採用人力稽查的成本"},{"start":2234.843,"end":2256.878,"text":"獲得了大家相當高的評價。事實上有將近90%的民眾是滿意環境部所推動的科技執法的作為。未來環境部仍會持續進行跨部會的合作。我們跟交通部"},{"start":2258.238,"end":2272.522,"text":"與內政部警政署共同推動機動車輛噪音管制的聯合稽查工作堅固沿途與管末的管制手段同時我們也來積極檢討研修法規與制度"},{"start":2278.543,"end":2295.238,"text":"提升我們整個一個稽查的一個技術跟推動清查綜合的做法那能夠來有效提升的環境品質為居民打造一個更安靜更舒適的一個生活環境"},{"start":2295.939,"end":2312.378,"text":"那也在這邊請大願各位委員能夠持續支持環境部暗部就班的來推動整個噪音管制跟法制面的一個建立那以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2318.459,"end":2337.612,"text":"好,謝謝薛部長那有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登報公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出"},{"start":2338.452,"end":2359.008,"text":"預期不受理暫定10點30分休息10分鐘原則上11點30分處理臨時提案10點30分截止收案現在請登記第一位委員陳昭芝委員發言謝謝主席有請薛部長請薛部長"},{"start":2365.768,"end":2392.025,"text":"國人在深夜熟睡的時刻對於那個噪音車或報音車就是說不論他是來自二輪的這個機車或四輪的汽車而且只要是發出很巨大的那個排氣管的那個排氣聲音我覺得都是沒有辦法接受而且是甚至非常的厭惡那我覺得重點就是說不在於說他的改裝而是說他改裝之後所發出的這個"},{"start":2393.406,"end":2393.426,"text":"是"},{"start":2417.085,"end":2435.173,"text":"但是這個環境部在這邊也訂定了這個所謂的機動車輛機動車替換用的消音系統的認證管理剛剛部長也有報告然而在那個去年12月27日的新聞稿剛剛部長也有提到源頭管理源頭管理是解決機車"},{"start":2438.015,"end":2445.058,"text":"機車改裝排氣管這個部分那這個標準是不一致等一下我來請教部長機動車輛跟機車是一樣的嗎在法律上的規範是機動車輛等於機車嗎為什麼在新聞稿裡面只談到機車的部分"},{"start":2455.862,"end":2472.107,"text":"我所了解機動車事實上包括汽車跟摩托車嘛那事實上對環境部而言以及對一般民眾而言他care的是那個噪音的部分不管它產生是四輪或是來自兩輪所以那個才是重點"},{"start":2473.949,"end":2477.791,"text":"所以這個新聞稿又強調這個機車源頭解決機車的問題那我們會覺得說你只管機車啦那可能用時尚並沒有那麼精神好下一張所以環境部的機動車輛其實所謂的車型噪音抽驗檢驗辦法所以他第二條第一款定義的很清楚機動車輛指的就是"},{"start":2497.082,"end":2525.687,"text":"反是使用燃油引擎或是電動馬達的的汽車跟機車都包含在裡面也就是說不只是機車而已那環境部現在好像目前把自己限縮在我今天看報告沒有辦法沒有談到這麼仔細所以我也在確認只處理機車的這個排氣管改裝的檢驗合格但是並沒有處理汽車的部分那為什麼汽車的部分排氣管改裝是沒有列入這個查核的這個"},{"start":2526.527,"end":2534.232,"text":"主要我們當時跟交通部在討論在那個過程裡面目前第一個問題比較多的是機車是比較多 汽車當然也是有但是汽車這部分目前交通部是還沒有打算改裝登記還沒有開始實施"},{"start":2554.645,"end":2567.16,"text":"還沒有打算喔現在有兩件事情一個是改裝要不要登記這是一件事情但是就環境部這邊來講只要噪音超過標準的不管是機車或者汽車都會開閥這是兩件事情"},{"start":2567.848,"end":2594.463,"text":"不是,就是重點就是說因為你的法規上是講機動車輛嘛它是確實包含汽車嘛但是你現在的執法的重點就在於這個機車沒有包括這個汽車部分我是覺得我可以接受逐步的處理但是說機車量比較多所以暫時不處理汽車齁這個還是就是請你們再思考不是,我現在就放一段影片齁我放一段影片就是請你瞭解一下到底是哪一種車子發出這個噪音齁好,請你播放"},{"start":2610.1,"end":2624.894,"text":"部長,您覺得這是什麼車子?哪一種車型?以我的經驗齁,好像汽車跟機車都會有這種...誒,所以是...都...都有可能...誒,單...單選...誒,因為這個單選經驗...啊?部長?喔?部長,就是汽車啊?汽車啊?"},{"start":2634.503,"end":2659.241,"text":"當然這一題這裡面看起來是汽車但是我的經驗是好像有一種摩托車那種聲音也是加速也是只有你的法規也含那這樣我們是重點在噪音嘛所以就是說對於這種報音車輛不管是來自這個汽車或汽車我這樣博人都一定同意用力抓重重罰所以你剛剛也提到說要加重這個罰則所以即便改裝是合法的但是改裝之後所發出的這個"},{"start":2660.061,"end":2660.421,"text":"我認同事實上"},{"start":2685.359,"end":2703.901,"text":"其實汽車的量不會少於這個機車給陳委員報告我的理解是我們先把造成問題的最大部分的先解決然後接下來在其他的部分那一般來講汽車剛剛所看到你看它一定是在高速公路或者在比較寬敞的道路"},{"start":2704.381,"end":2706.202,"text":"但是現在就對於汽車的部分有沒有這種規劃跟想法呢?"},{"start":2731.975,"end":2748.801,"text":"我覺得我們可以來做 管不管,就是說要不要管 我想跟委員報,我們管是管,就是他只要超標,噪音超標,抓到還是都開單 這個不分機車或汽車 這沒有分 但是我們知道很多源頭就是來自排氣管的改裝嘛 如果你先給他一個檢驗的機制"},{"start":2750.882,"end":2752.384,"text":"是不是可以請交通部來問一下有沒有規劃汽車的部分也要相對應"},{"start":2768.404,"end":2795.822,"text":"呃跟委員報告一下就是說談的一個課題就是排氣管的認證那成如現在就是說先實施汽車的部分源頭要有先認證過的這個排氣管那如果車主要去做替換的話才有合格的產品其實我大概知道原因了因為你們大概覺得說汽車比較容易看到側面嘛那汽車是在底面嘛但是我是覺得不是應該這樣分的這個汽車的部分的話原則上交通部會配合環保署如果說環境部"},{"start":2796.843,"end":2798.984,"text":"請問部長你了解為什麼這個排氣管它要設計成可分段拆卸這個理由你了解嗎?"},{"start":2815.23,"end":2843.828,"text":"我不是那麼清楚為什麼分段嗎?你看左邊是汽車嘛,後面是汽車就有人了解嘛為什麼要這樣設計可分段拆卸就是它有所謂的頭段、中段、尾段它是可以拆卸的嘛就是方便維修啊它是方便就是它整個這個有時候原廠車就原台出廠的時候它的設計就是這樣的那我想讓看首長們看下一張下一張就是所謂的這個目前齁目前因為不一致嘛難"},{"start":2844.908,"end":2873.918,"text":"臺中南投苗栗這個部分他地方的環保局他規定就是受理機車改裝這個合格檢驗的時候他要求把中段跟尾段焊死、碾死然後網路上有很多網友在就是在討論說這個是各地因為你沒有統一標準各地的這個環保局他自己去設定這個標準那我覺得這樣是不對的是不是應該有全國統一的標準來做這件事就環保署環境部來規定然後大家是一致的"},{"start":2874.383,"end":2892.625,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員的建議因為我想為什麼會有些縣市會這樣做是因為很多這個機車的車主他經過認證之後他回去以後又把它哪一段又拆掉就如剛剛陳委員講他分段很可能他已經拿到我們的"},{"start":2893.246,"end":2894.748,"text":"你說他後來又再去?"},{"start":2894.748,"end":2916.909,"text":"後來對,還是會造成噪音?不會,還是有很多次他原始這樣,因為他為了方便維持,我們可以理解。最後您談到的那個下一張,剛剛說就是科技嘛,科技除質法。聲音照相設備這個是我們也是跟你剛剛報告的數字是一樣的。那根據部長我唸給您聽,就是說之下是以六都來說台中是13台,那數量最多的是新北36台,是差了3倍。"},{"start":2918.37,"end":2941.51,"text":"那各縣市除了新竹有10台唯一的雙數其他的都是個位數那基隆市最少只有一台其實不夠執法使用那如果說在執法末端這邊要去了解有沒有這個噪音、報音事實上還需要科技執法那請問你們現在有規劃這個預算就是說要幫助鼓勵這個地方的這個地方他們在能夠在執法的時候能夠做得更完整嗎"},{"start":2944.512,"end":2970.61,"text":"給陳委員報告本來是112到116有編的這個1.9億要購買306台那現在因為有這個急迫性已經把執行時程拉到明年變成112到114就會有306那也請各位有在進行中好對對對而且加速希望未來可以好就謝謝就是氣質要一致的管理那焊接的部分也要了解那這個科技執法部分請加強好謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝主席"},{"start":2974.412,"end":2978.637,"text":"謝謝陳昭芝委員接下來請陳金輝委員發言主席各位委員各位官員早安我請部長請薛部長"},{"start":2989.773,"end":3003.231,"text":"部長上禮拜您有提到上禮拜您提到要回去學校教書了嗎?是因為65歲了必須退休在這邊也祝福您可以繼續為我們國家做運英才是我會謝謝"},{"start":3004.813,"end":3033.428,"text":"今天我們來看一下這個噪音是目前我們打到不管是各縣市政府的1955等等都是民怨之首那統計起來呢臺灣有睡眠障礙的比例大概是20%所以這些人半夜一被吵醒就會陷入嚴重的失眠那我們也有看到各縣市政府都加強取締積極的開罰甚至從源頭管理規範機車改裝排氣等等多管齊下"},{"start":3034.068,"end":3056.764,"text":"但是想要問一下因為前瞻計畫的第4期到今年年底就要結束了可是我們現任的國發會主委之前宣布第5期會聚焦在擴大淨零能量還有地熱、氫能等等的反而是這種跟老百姓生活很貼近的議題沒有提到請問環境部對於前瞻計畫第5期預算中積極來處理噪音問題"},{"start":3061.747,"end":3075.787,"text":"這件事情有沒有什麼想法?第5期現在還在規劃因為第10期是執行到今年還有8月份左右那我剛剛也報告過今年我們前瞻計畫跟公共建設大概將近1.9億有剛剛會說買山"},{"start":3082.492,"end":3103.116,"text":"至於第5期當然我發現現在環境部不只是噪音這個議題事實上其他還有淨零科技、資源循環事實上都應該可以爭取更多的前瞻建設跟地方政府來共同合作能夠讓我們的環境事實上是更永續"},{"start":3104.576,"end":3127.249,"text":"因為地方政府7月要編預算了嘛8月要提出預算書所以他們現在也會很緊張畢竟這些科技執法費用非常的高他們也不太可能負擔這個必須要靠中央來幫忙所以我們也希望環境部的態度要出來讓地方政府好好做事謝謝謝謝陳委員給我們的建議"},{"start":3133.792,"end":3154.336,"text":"這是你們環境部自己做的一個小編做出來的宣傳大家要積極的來回收紙的餐具、紙的容器等等的不過我也想問一下部長因為您可能是住在雙北或是新竹住台中您有遇過自己來追垃圾車嗎?"},{"start":3155.656,"end":3178.372,"text":"你自己有追過垃圾嗎?因為我住在那個是社區,社區就放在對,給廠商一起拿去回收嗎?對對對,所以不用我們有接到中南部的民眾跟我們反映說他把這些紙餐具、紙容器回收好了以後呢拿去給垃圾車結果清潔隊是跟他講說噢這個我們不收請你用一般垃圾塞進來就好請問你有聽說這樣子的狀況嗎?"},{"start":3180.433,"end":3203.493,"text":"有 這個我有聽過不過昨天鄭老師世界地球日在大安森林公園有一個活動那慈濟的顏執行長告訴我現在慈濟他們自己有一個技術對於紙餐劑因為紙餐劑為什麼現在在一般來講不回收就是因為它雖然中間是紙的但是它上下都一層次有一個PE圖層對所以要把它先分開現在慈濟他們已經有辦法把那個分開"},{"start":3204.714,"end":3226.461,"text":"所以事實上那個紙都還可以回收所以我也請那個顏執行長把這個技術跟環境部來分享一下我覺得假如這個可行事實上慈濟也在做了那我覺得應該也可以這個環境部來推動我先跟部長報告一下這個問題到底在哪裡民團已經做了一個很清楚的圖示我們來看"},{"start":3227.861,"end":3251.274,"text":"這個紙容器的製造商呢他必須要有合法繳費他才會挹注資源回收基金到末端的處理商但是因為紙容器的製造商他有地下的有短繳費用的所以我們現在的這個基金有短缺嘛因此處理商他就沒有辦法去鼓勵回收商好好的做好回收"},{"start":3252.014,"end":3264.941,"text":"所以你要不要想像一下這個經過因為你剛好講部長自己也是住在公寓大廈所以資源回收車的紙容器回收佔我們多少的百分比"},{"start":3266.882,"end":3283.735,"text":"給陳委員報告齁,你剛剛提到這個問題齁,容金那個現在是15點多%啦齁,那我們基本上現在要做的就是一個沿途管理,事實上我們的昭緯主席也特別關心這一塊,我們現在已經在進行,要來做這個從沿途事實上就要來這個"},{"start":3285.376,"end":3308.965,"text":"對,所以你也發現你們的生產數還有末端的處理數是不是有很大的落差嘛,大概5萬噸左右嘛,所以好那我們來看你的源頭管理做得如何你自己出去可能你有自己帶飲料杯但是這個便當盒啊等等的你有去掃過你上面印的QR code嗎?"},{"start":3310.365,"end":3335.632,"text":"只要沒有QR Code的那個基本上大概就是所謂的這個一般地下工廠所生產的沒有QR Code的是不是對沒有QR Code現在環境部要求只要是合格合法的廠商他們都一定會有一個QR Code那部長你自己有沒有拿來掃掃看我是沒有掃掃看但是我吃的便當我看那個的確都有QR Code那我告訴你掃了以後長什麼樣子"},{"start":3338.166,"end":3350.033,"text":"這個我早上不管是有時候人家會送飲料星巴克或是這個麥當勞冰旋風等等它上面都有一個QR code你們的QR code啊掃出來就是這個樣子欸"},{"start":3353.084,"end":3372.82,"text":"所有的QR Code掃出來是一模一樣就說這個業者是來自循環署登記列管的業者你麻煩部長你去掃掃看你們自己的Code跟農業部做出來的Code農業部做出來的Code你掃下去你會發現他是哪邊生產什麼時候生產還有這一家"},{"start":3373.601,"end":3374.901,"text":"因為你的掃下去沒有任何的差別"},{"start":3398.058,"end":3402.225,"text":"陳委員我是不是可以請我們副署長來說明更詳細一點可能應該有比這個更詳細的資料"},{"start":3406.654,"end":3427.519,"text":"跟委員報告,那這個扣因為有時候我們是顧慮到民眾用餐可能沒有那麼方便,它是少有沒有標示而已但是詳細的廠家生產等等的資料,那個是給我們去查了所以我們在查的時候,最近幾年用這些的方法也查到2億多的短路在追究對,所以你們內部的資料有,只是我們民眾看不到"},{"start":3428.459,"end":3439.171,"text":"但說實在的其實你們也可以去訪問一下他去買便當通常肚子很餓或是買飲料他有東西吃就好了他不會去管這個扣我頂多我還蠻在意農產品我會去管這個農產品是不是從品質優良的廠家提供的"},{"start":3446.519,"end":3460.995,"text":"但是你去買便當的時候你真的不會很在意這個盒子是不是環境部認證過的QR code所以也許這個方法你們要再檢討一下是不是真的可以有效來控制產量跟回收量的落差"},{"start":3461.556,"end":3486.596,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員的建議我請我們喜歡署來思考一下QR Code內容是不是應該要更對要更具體一點或是讓他有誘因啊因為你這樣子在懲罰很乖的人很乖的人他合法的廠商他可能會覺得欸人家就是copy複製貼上就可以做的跟我看起來一模一樣民眾掃起來也是一樣他根本也不可能會去檢舉啊是"},{"start":3488.298,"end":3492.765,"text":"最後也想請教一下部長那你沒有掃過QR Code的話你自己有騎過電動機車或是開電動車嗎?"},{"start":3496.897,"end":3500.4,"text":"我坐過電動車啦但是沒有開過電動車買不起因為你們有一個2040運具電動化的這樣子的目標你知道嗎按照目前的進度啦除了108年我們有補助電動機車當時曾經暴增之後呢"},{"start":3518.536,"end":3533.468,"text":"逐年遞減,所以我們如果以每年9萬台、8萬台、7萬台這樣子的速度算下去,你猜還要多久我們才可以運劇電動化?給陳委員報告,基本上我們現在的方向"},{"start":3534.308,"end":3561.153,"text":"整個政策跟交通部應該是鼓勵大眾搭乘公共運輸那早期的確有採取所謂的太舊換新只要你不管是燃油車舊的換新的或者說燃油車換成電動車都鼓勵可是這樣子的話就會造成事實上這些使用機車的人數還是沒有辦法降下來"},{"start":3562.855,"end":3575.892,"text":"我們來看使用機車的成長幅度你好像沒有很具體的做法可以讓使用機車的人降下來因為我們除了108年電車有稍微增長"},{"start":3583.721,"end":3599.736,"text":"110、111、112購買汽油機車的是遠高過購買電動機車的對,那個當然是價錢也是一個因素那另外就是假如說所以現在這個是蠻矛盾的就是當我們鼓勵他即使是機車有燃油車換成電動車那這樣子我們機車的數目還是不會減少"},{"start":3603.939,"end":3632.719,"text":"好最後啦建議一下看一下對您剛提到價錢所以呢僅有不到三成他現在需要置換機車的人他會願意買電動車因為他每年花的錢實在是太多了所以你可能要仔細去想一下如果大家沒有辦法在短期內改變他的生活習慣去搭乘大眾的交通的電動公車等等的你要如何用你的補貼去讓人家有感而他在"},{"start":3633.659,"end":3634.68,"text":"接下來請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":3660.401,"end":3665.352,"text":"請我們的部長還有我們的警政署副署長還有交通部司長李副署長"},{"start":3670.916,"end":3697.649,"text":"好,部長早 早部長,噪音污染大概是長期我們國人最為生活困擾的 是現在大家生活都高壓力然後晚上睡不著又再加上噪音這個議題大概不分我們的城鄉那這幾年當然環境部跟交通部跟警政署確實有非常多的解方可是是不是能達到效果我覺得有待檢驗"},{"start":3698.925,"end":3710.257,"text":"所以先請問一下警政署這邊目前是不是有掌握全國縣市執行環境間聯合稽查的狀況而且請問每週攔查幾次每次從幾點到幾點開始攔查"},{"start":3714.878,"end":3733.204,"text":"我們以112例來講我們聯絡稽查有1826次我們去年整體我們自己在執行當中不管盤查、攔檢的有查後發現這個有改裝的等於要掌握各縣市的狀況那整體的數據"},{"start":3735.336,"end":3737.077,"text":"為什麼這樣子問這是我們辦公室這邊因為拿不到資料所以我們"},{"start":3759.304,"end":3783.275,"text":"去致電了六都的我們的環保局先不看其他的縣市那足以確認當然高雄市是在我們禮拜五下班之前他都沒有辦法提供那都不依那第一個當然桃園市現在目前看起來是最高因為每天執行新北市呢事實上是次高但你看最高至高當然也要問的是這整個人力搭配的狀況是這樣不是只有說"},{"start":3783.655,"end":3809.963,"text":"每天去查或是每週4到5次還要看他查的點到底是多少所以我想問一下請問警政署針對噪音管制執法的頻率強度目前中央是不是有統一的最低執法的頻率就因為環境間的確不是你們啟動可是如果你們不配合的話基本上這效果非常的差那你就要問說那警政署這邊知不知道各地的做法是什麼"},{"start":3811.615,"end":3835.89,"text":"報告委員在原則上有關於這個環保噪音的取締部分我們是屬於一個被動配合的一個機關所以就是環保有找你們才去做環保都沒有找你就沒有去做這是第一個就是說環保他那一邊有排的時候我們一定配合那另外我們自己本身的防治危險駕車的那個勤務的部分那可能會在"},{"start":3837.591,"end":3864.854,"text":"後半夜或是深夜的那個時候我們也會請那個環保...可是中央如果沒有特別去要求的話會不會如果環保找各地的警局去配合的時候通常也不可行因為你這邊大概沒有統一的一些要求的頻率就像幼童車輛車它有一些檢驗在路上攔查的頻率而且有被法規規定所以我想問一下你們中央自己到底有沒有特別去做這樣的配合"},{"start":3866.771,"end":3889.393,"text":"我剛剛的資料裡面 事實上這裡面環境間聯合稽查從110年到上個月總共4097個場次 那告發的次數是7730可是如果你是分散到各縣市的話 不一的話 那狀態就會像現在看到的是桃園最高嘛 然後"},{"start":3890.434,"end":3905.571,"text":"新北事實上是次高嘛可是我們也不知道這個量體的狀態是什麼是不是有因為這些區域裡邊有特別的地點事實上是比較常發生的所以有去做所以比較中央我覺得比較沒有辦法掌握了"},{"start":3907.974,"end":3921.391,"text":"這一點我想我們再來跟這個交通部跟內政部來思考一下三個部會應該要共同因為這件事情不是只有環境部有關聲音取締設備的裝置狀況這一樣也是我們去問"},{"start":3926.22,"end":3953.046,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":3953.186,"end":3960.09,"text":"環境部和各縣市在分配這個聲音照相的這個部分也必須各縣市首長願意去提撥配合款"},{"start":3980.703,"end":4009.549,"text":"要他們不願意那很抱歉可能這個機會就會給其他縣市所以這個可能可是也要知道哪些地方真的是像嚴重度比較高的時候那才是環保單位要著力的所以整個噪音取締的設備跟手段事實上在執行的時候我們還看到一些問題點就是說你的聯合稽查必須要由警方配合所以我為什麼剛剛先問警政署可是各縣市的執行的頻率不太一樣還有移動式的噪音照相"},{"start":4010.489,"end":4038.647,"text":"這個因為環境的條件上蠻嚴苛的所以常常取締成效不彰那固定式的噪音照相呢又一樣地點相同的話大家都會因為這樣子而規避掉那有些就是會希望因為機動式的澄清案所以他會希望移動式的可是主要選擇這個採購的時候所以就想問部長你對於目前你噪音取締的這樣子的執行方式是不是滿意"},{"start":4039.828,"end":4067.265,"text":"有改善的空間因為這個剛剛也才執行一段時間嘛那我們allways一個政策推動開始初期總是可能還會有哪些不足那就透過後續陸陸續續再去把它改善那就煩勞部長交接給下一任部長真的要好好的去做啦因為這對國人事實上是蠻困擾的那目前不只是我們的現行法規管制真的是不夠嚴格因為罰款"},{"start":4068.607,"end":4082.984,"text":"對很多有益違規的人就像每一個月去繳你的大廈管理費的那個管理費一樣因為這個很多人事實上他會去做這樣子應該是明知故犯的狀態所以"},{"start":4084.985,"end":4104.311,"text":"車主尤其是機車你如果是汽車你一定是扣車可是機車的話你是限期改善有些被罰的他就回去改一改然後再去監理站再查驗OK之後他再回來改回來所以這基本上反而讓車行多賺一筆不只罰也罰不怕"},{"start":4105.376,"end":4131.586,"text":"所以根本抓也抓不完抓了等於沒抓所以請問交通部、環境部可不可以針對加重罰則然後針對累犯當場查扣車輛不知道這兩個部會可不可以回答這個因為我個人的感覺是的確這個金額對很多這個特別是在玩玩車族啦齁以及那些高檔車的人齁這個真的是完全沒有影響"},{"start":4133.507,"end":4134.347,"text":"對,你的登記系統,我們現在台灣有一千光講機車"},{"start":4156.874,"end":4167.263,"text":"一千四百五十五萬輛的機車可是現在登記的是一萬四千九百多件然後只有一千我剛看簡報是一千九百五十七件"},{"start":4168.079,"end":4191.339,"text":"裡邊是已經經過登記的好寶寶們都已經去登記可是民眾如果自願去登記的話那改裝的當然經登記就可以上路可是合格的可能還是有問題這個排氣管那改裝尚未經檢驗的不是您的225組的話那民眾去送檢檢驗合格就可以上路可是有些人他根本不會想去啊因為我就是想要這個聲音來"},{"start":4192.5,"end":4210.486,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":4210.946,"end":4225.956,"text":"還是麻煩用時間關係請提供一個報告就你未來如何改善經濟因為只是採用這個登記的話我覺得效果不彰所以我認為源頭管制是非常重要的因為透過肩頸間的一個"},{"start":4229.887,"end":4244.522,"text":"攔查跟登記這個制度去管制根本就是不足的源頭管理反而是首先就是設備可是我們對於排氣管的這個設備並沒有明定規定說要去變更的時候做一個嚴厲的採儲"},{"start":4246.94,"end":4248.58,"text":"獲得各項委員會提供各項委員會提供各項委員會提供"},{"start":4273.886,"end":4302.977,"text":"希望針對這一塊甚至消費者角度上來看的話可能他也不知道他改裝竟然會產生噪音所以還是希望是不是可以比照國外一個事實上是對車主提高罰金那美國大概就是紐約現在其他州也開始跟進也就是說大概跟台灣相差罰金相差10倍還有源頭管理應該是改裝的車廠如果他違規那是不是"},{"start":4303.697,"end":4304.518,"text":"接下來請廖惟祥委員發言"},{"start":4351.897,"end":4352.338,"text":"有請部長請學部長"},{"start":4358.817,"end":4385.033,"text":"好 廖委員早 薛部長早部長今天的這個專報的主題是噪音管制跟加速推動排氣管噪音認證但是看到貴部的書面報告跟簡報的資料你們在源頭管理的部分只有提到這個檢測噪音認證合格的有225組排氣管請問這裡面有汽車用的排氣管嗎這裡面應該是以汽車為主啦"},{"start":4385.731,"end":4398.592,"text":"全部都是機車嘛 是所以只有針對改裝機車的排氣管進行認證請問部長但是汽車其實也有改裝排氣管還有排氣閥門也會造成噪音污染為何這份報告裡面沒有"},{"start":4399.983,"end":4428.622,"text":"這個未來我想是下一階段可以去思考剛剛陳委員也特別提到就是說我們現在重點是擺在機車那下一階段應該汽車也應該可以納管但是針對噪音超標的一個處罰的是不分汽機車不要噪音超過那個標準所以你們未來也會趕快加速把這個對汽車的部分好那這個部分提醒你們一下應該也要來做"},{"start":4429.142,"end":4432.289,"text":"好再來部長我們可以看到喔"},{"start":4433.055,"end":4460.184,"text":"在我們環保署108年的時候3月有一個標案叫做機動車輛噪音聯合機查和排氣管認證及管制計劃這300多萬的標案是由一位凱聚科技實業股份有限公司標的那在109年的時候7月份也有另外一個標同樣的標案他是800多萬的那這個部分呢改叫做歐宜科技股份有限公司標的"},{"start":4461.977,"end":4480.472,"text":"好 那我想這個環境部喔 因為去查了一下歷年的這個得標記錄 這兩家公司以前也是環保署跟我們環境部的常客 我相信環境部對這兩家公司應該也不陌生吧我們同年或許熟悉 我個人是不太清楚 是 因為我沒有介入到這個好 那下一頁"},{"start":4482.216,"end":4498.948,"text":"在這個112年的時候這個OE公司也得標了一個就是112年行政院保護署這個環境保護署的大氣環境司的強化噪音管制措施及營建工程噪音改善計劃"},{"start":4500.309,"end":4519.915,"text":"這個算是一個顧問案那它的內容主要是講說掌握縣市的環保局推動聲音照相科技執法情形以及提供技術資源匯整更新各縣市的車輛噪音聲音還有照相科技執法的設置的形式、地點、套數跟成果"},{"start":4520.535,"end":4537.742,"text":"那瞭解本署在這個前瞻計畫移撥各縣市移動式的聲音照相設備的營運情形並篆擬常見的問題與回覆內容供環保局參考還有在營建工程的這個噪音微型感測器的評估應用"},{"start":4538.702,"end":4561.241,"text":"強化源頭管制的策略還有收集國際上至少三個先進國家運用這個噪音微型感測器跟營建工程還有相關室外環境相關的這個噪音監測的案例所以針對民眾陳情這個營建工程的噪音案件進行分析好簡單來講它就是一個類似顧問案那顧問案完之後"},{"start":4562.122,"end":4574.248,"text":"他是不是有建議要採購所以你們在10月的時候這個OE公司又得標了一個112年行政院這個環境保護署的大氣環境司移動式聲音照相科技執法辨識系統採購案是嗎?"},{"start":4577.793,"end":4600.102,"text":"那委員可不可以請我們大氣師張市長來回答因為我這個內容我不是那麼清楚跟委員報告這兩個計畫是性質是不一樣的那聲音照相本身來講我們從110年就開始採購所以跟這個112年這個4月份的這個計畫來講是沒有什麼關聯110年就採購第一批22套那這個112年10月這個是採入第二批採過那個21套"},{"start":4606.824,"end":4634.915,"text":"對,但是很神奇的事情就是這個OE公司在得標的顧問案之後在10月份就是又得標的這個採購案好,不過沒關係下一頁喔OE科技決標了這個金額大概是1800多萬的金額喔可是你們這裡面有說該採購案設備經標檢局檢定合格跟通過儀器的筆測經本署完成測試驗收合格方撥付該套次的尾款"},{"start":4635.655,"end":4635.795,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":4659.178,"end":4683.325,"text":"基本上我們去查了一下這個歐宜公司跟這個凱聚他根本就是同一家公司第一個證據他們共用網站而且他公司設立的地址也相同第二個證據他的董監事都是這個魚性家族相互擔任董監事所以你這樣看起來他是不是同一家公司背後算不算同一批人"},{"start":4684.837,"end":4697.709,"text":"應該是同一個類似集團裡面的公司假如說甚至連網頁也都一起那當然就是同一期但是這個跟前面的構案我不曉得有沒有他就是這個標案就是他採購了這個器材的標案是"},{"start":4700.751,"end":4720.814,"text":"所以政府採購法裡面有施行細則的第38條的第一項第4和第5款政府辦理這個採購的時候簡單來講就是有利益衝突的時候要在我們的採購文件中明文禁止得標廠商自己協助自己的行為請問我們這個標案裡面的合約裡面有沒有寫有沒有明確的載明"},{"start":4723.251,"end":4739.005,"text":"這個產品假如環境部去採購將來驗收是環境部來驗收啦但是剛剛檢測就是檢測公司就是另外一家那你們驗收了這不就是同一家公司自己我不曉得這個案子現在是不是已經就結案了還是怎麼樣"},{"start":4740.083,"end":4758.679,"text":"我請我們市長來跟我們報告一下目前這個驗收的部分還在進行當中所以還沒有驗收還沒有驗收所以那你們知道它是同一家公司自己給自己檢測嗎自己的產品給自己的另外一家公司檢測嗎之前不清楚之間的這個關聯所以我現在提出來你們才清楚"},{"start":4761.184,"end":4782.031,"text":"事實上這種問題我們再來進一步釐清但是我們所了解很多在儀器的製造商他本身那家公司裡面就會有驗證跟分析的這個部門那那個部門假如去這個出去證明說這個產品是合格接下來就看"},{"start":4782.591,"end":4806.499,"text":"好部長那我告訴你因為其實他明明有其他的實驗室喔要不要接受他的認證好我簡單來講這件事情的邏輯就是OE公司他跟這個凱聚公司就是同一間公司那OE提供的儀器筆測報告是由凱聚公司檢測的那這個情況邏輯不就像是少林足球裡面講到的裁判、球證、旁證都是他的人你怎麼跟我鬥這就是球員兼裁判啊"},{"start":4807.299,"end":4828.141,"text":"那根據貴部環境這個研究院的公開資料一氣的比測至少有6家可以做為何這家這個案子就是由凱聚來做這不就是接案驗收一條龍嗎?環境部的陣風處還在嗎?還有功能嗎?還是說裝睡的人叫不醒還是說他根本就不知道被蒙在鼓底或是在眼皮底下讓他過去"},{"start":4829.582,"end":4853.223,"text":"因為如果今天沒有提出來是不是你們完全不知道這件事然後也沒有去做這個檢查是當要委員這樣子假如有任何不法非常歡迎去舉發那這個案子因為剛剛我們張市長講還沒有結案那我不曉得這裡面的一些採測或者關係什麼樣反正就是我們絕不護短假如迴緩"},{"start":4854.949,"end":4882.344,"text":"在違法的地方歡迎去舉發這個是我身為部長的一個態度絕不護短非常清楚很好那我希望貴部盡快的調查如果有任何不法請現在也請檢調來進行調查然後因為這幾年環保署從環保署到環境部的預算其實最大的問題就是委外辦理的經費也是各部會的第一名連立法院的預算中心也都點名過委外經費過高的問題"},{"start":4884.266,"end":4909.907,"text":"所以這代表什麼意思基本上就是環境部把自己的核心業務也都委辦給外部的廠商所以環境部就只能夠任由廠商予取予求像剛剛這個樣子也非常像廠商叫你們開什麼標請問環境部有能力說不嗎現在連驗收的部分則得標廠商也自己找了自己檢測公司你們可能也都被蒙在鼓底直到現在才知道在你們眼皮底下大剌剌的這樣圖利"},{"start":4911.77,"end":4929.08,"text":"這樣子你們都不曉得,是不是這樣案子太多,還是就只是其中一件?事實上,票委員可能也有一些地方大概言過其實啦,因為這個問題去年在預算審查的時候我也認同委員說,環境部的委外比例偏高,那我回去也初步的了解一下,有一些"},{"start":4929.66,"end":4929.9,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4953.622,"end":4968.229,"text":"沒有問題我們會把這個資料如果有需要我們會提供給檢調但是我現在在質詢台上告訴你這件事情就是希望你們也好好的去調查這件事了解可以是好謝謝好謝謝廖委員好謝謝好謝謝廖偉祥委員接下來請王育明委員發言謝謝主席我們是有請薛部長請薛部長"},{"start":4986.501,"end":5015.741,"text":"黃文豪部長好,本席想請教你對於新任的環境部部長人選彭啟明先生他是氣象達人那你認為以他的專業度來擔任環境部的部長他各方面條件是不是最適合的人選還是有比他更適合的人選因為之前傳出來其實不是他包括張皇珍可能是女性或者是其他人就是可能是真的環工背景出身的"},{"start":5017.101,"end":5041.269,"text":"這個王委員對於這個彭準部長的看法我尊重啦但是以我個人的這個看法我覺得他很有這個專業這個特別是在大氣氣象、空氣污染跟國際合作那當然其他領域或許有一些他沒有涉獵他也可以透過他其他的產業的經驗"},{"start":5043.03,"end":5067.484,"text":"以及未來跟我們的部內的主管同仁去慢慢去學習你認為他的專業有沒有超越你在環境相關的專業上面他有沒有超越你因為我們是希望說部長愈換愈專業愈好嘛你認為他們有他的專業是氣象專業我知道啦但是因為目前中央氣象署是隸屬在交通部啦"},{"start":5069.076,"end":5083.946,"text":"但是環境部我們譬如說監測資訊師、我們大氣師事實上也都跟氣象署合作的關係非常密切已經很長久的時間譬如說像今年23月份我們跟NASA好好好"},{"start":5085.207,"end":5099.228,"text":"這個話題我想到此或許部長你也不適宜再對新部長有一些評論不過本席是希望說要帶領環境部環境部其實各部門大家其實都是專業比較不是政治的考量"},{"start":5099.708,"end":5125.648,"text":"所以當然希望這個部長是要專業取勝不是說只要跟準總統關係比較親近他就可以擔任這個位置這個是我們期待的那我當然也謝謝部長您是專業出身大家對你其實也有期待8個月可能其實覺得太短了一點這個應該是讓你如果有更多的時間可以把你的相關的專業跟長才發揮得更淋漓盡致才對那進到今天的這個主題"},{"start":5127.689,"end":5156.271,"text":"部長你是台中出來的你在台中的時候你有沒有這個半夜睡覺的時候被這個腦仁的機車、汽車噪音吵醒過有有對不對正好住在大馬路旁邊很腦仁對不對所以的確是所以我很認同這個要取締這個是民怨之首但是要取締我們就要來看怎麼有效的取締事實上這個噪音案件已經飆增56%那你如果都是要靠環境監"},{"start":5157.552,"end":5178.164,"text":"要動用基層的環保局的人警察人員三更半夜10點到凌晨6點在那邊站崗這個叫做勞師動作真的是累死人了這個恐怕機察人員也坐不久就會過勞了所以本席覺得最有效的方式應該我們透過科技執法"},{"start":5179.344,"end":5205.189,"text":"認同這科技執法就是透過這個照相跟聲音的部分就可以直接取締開發那這個是最有效的但是這個圖表這個部長我希望這個您在離任之前這件事情你要全力支持這一個科技執法可以提升執法的量能也可以減少人力但是目前全國的設備全國210套固定109套移動101套"},{"start":5207.95,"end":5224.396,"text":"真的太少了你看看單市、台中市喔台中市的人口即將邁入285萬比台北市要多但是目前我看到一個是少一個是分布不均啊你光看六都的分配台中市13部"},{"start":5225.117,"end":5243.398,"text":"臺北市23部新北市36部那臺中市的人口還比臺北市多那為什麼會有這種落差我不知道環境部你在補助上面你是按照人口數復原的大小還是機車數量在補助上面有沒有一個什麼樣的標準因為我看完這個圖表"},{"start":5244.739,"end":5271.836,"text":"老師說我不知道標準在哪裡給委員報告因為剛開始才210部的確有一點分配不均那我會責成環境部我們同仁再來檢討但是更重要是說既然大家假如認同科技執法是最有效而且不會勞師動眾那我們也很期待委員能夠將來幫忙環境部我一定大力支持但是你們編太少"},{"start":5273.377,"end":5282.841,"text":"我現在要告訴部長的就是說你現在114年的預算1.9億才要96部分配到二十幾個306部啦你是要增設96還是306?306到明年底因為你們的語意有點不清楚"},{"start":5289.744,"end":5317.458,"text":"本來是112到116編了1.9億要買306那我們現在把他時間縮短到114早兩年明年就可以增加306是增加306步是是 那就會把這個數目盡量把它那我問你臺中市政府有新聞給你們他要50步你們在未來明年的這306步他們想要的數量這樣達得到嗎"},{"start":5318.799,"end":5338.35,"text":"我想我們同仁他們應該有一些計算公式不過我想這個王委員這一點我們將來特別留意好不好我希望的就是說我今天也不是只是幫台中市爭取是這一個問題很惱人我去年也擔任副市長您也是台中出身那台中問題很嚴重我知道像桃園其實也很嚴重"},{"start":5339.691,"end":5360.556,"text":"新北京很嚴重大家都很嚴重那現在既然環境部要編組我希望你們要聽見地方的聲音地方需要的量我們就一次應該把它編組因為明年的預算還沒有要審那如果你現在部裡面編的還不夠其實環境部各樣的預算很多針對民怨之首我覺得環境部如果用力的去做大家會很有感"},{"start":5361.016,"end":5381.414,"text":"而且會很感謝部長您這個雖然上任不到一年但是如果這個是您可以回去好好督導環境部在520之前讓大家把這個預算編組也讓各地方政府感受到說這個中央環境部很重視大家也不要讓我們的地方的這些環保局的人員過老的話我覺得這是一個很大的這個政績"},{"start":5382.935,"end":5403.99,"text":"好不好,我們全力來支持,那你要督促部門來把這件事情做好好,謝謝那另外一個就是我們的那個燃油機車數量居高不下的問題這個空污我們機動的污染源這個管制在這個燃油機車這個就佔一個非常大的比例,那你看這個圖表"},{"start":5404.87,"end":5411.674,"text":"我們每一年我們的燃油機車數量還在成長已經來到1384萬那雖然我們的電動機車有在成長那成長的幅度坦白講並不算太高那所以在這個部分今天交通部也有來這個交通部我們的林司長林福山司長我覺得這件事情也不是只有這個環境部的責任因為這個主管"},{"start":5430.945,"end":5452.12,"text":"主管這個燃油機車這個其實是交通部那怎麼樣是不是交通部認證資源也很多啊跟環境部討論用一個更有效的這個政策我們來有效的引導讓電動機車的增加是有效去汰換燃油機車而不是兩個數字都增加目前我看起來這個就是民眾好像"},{"start":5453.676,"end":5454.477,"text":"在這個議題上面怎麼樣有效的引導透過你們的政策讓大家"},{"start":5482.874,"end":5503.68,"text":"願意去換電動機車的比例再更提高不要再繼續購買燃油車 這個交通部有沒有什麼想法?這個部分跟委員報告一下就是說運氣電動化裡面剛剛提到包括電動大客車包括電動對 這部分做得很好包括電動機車我覺得公車做得很好但機車做得不好那現在就是說在2040"},{"start":5505.06,"end":5528.125,"text":"那這個電動小客車跟電動汽車我們原則上就是希望達到市售比百分之百的部分那目前是在這個過程當中那剛剛委員所提到的部分的話就是針對這個電動小客車還有電動汽車的部分的話目前交通部跟經濟部還有環保署我們三個部會會通力來這個合作那目前是設定每年每年都有這個市售比的一個這個達到的一個這個目標你們的標準是什麼"},{"start":5530.906,"end":5556.586,"text":"目前的標準大概就是說各有分年目標但是整體的部分就是說希望到2040那這個市售比新車的部分全部都是電動好 這個我提醒市長跟部長2040是設一個遠程的沒錯但你要達到這個遠程你必須每一年的分年短期的跟中期的你也要有一定的目標你如果過程沒有那個結果是達不到的好不好"},{"start":5556.906,"end":5557.026,"text":"好,謝謝王媛"},{"start":5578.564,"end":5587.649,"text":"謝謝王玉明委員現在先做宣告等一下在黃秀芳委員質詢結束休息10分鐘好那現在請盧憲一委員發言主持人請問部長請薛部長好盧恩早好早那我們先看一下噪音所造成對身體的影響大概我們現在的容許的"},{"start":5608.171,"end":5608.892,"text":"對身體的長期影響"},{"start":5623.581,"end":5645.742,"text":"你說對健康的對健康當然是希望在綠色的區域啊是那因為以前我們大概都想說如果是你要提高聲量來講話的話大概那個背景大概就是80分貝是那現在大概越來越嚴格希望能夠設定常態在53或54這裡大概有一個基礎的了解第二個就是下來"},{"start":5647.55,"end":5655.569,"text":"現在大家都知道說噪音是最高的一個所謂的公害那不知道有沒有去我們鄉下住宿過"},{"start":5657.045,"end":5680.719,"text":"我們部長如果我們在山上做生活的話大概6點會叫你起床的是村長的廣播村長的廣播村長廣播他會先放一段音樂讓大家知道說村長我要講話了好那結果呢現在不是村長廣播叫醒我們大概5點多他們就那些騎正機的就經過我們相間的道路所以現在是"},{"start":5681.331,"end":5696.473,"text":"重機車的噪音叫醒我們的村民那怎麼樣取締都沒有用因為那個時間點不會有公務人員上班那你用取締的話取締的話根本就無人到場也無人舉證也無人去蒐證那上上"},{"start":5697.234,"end":5719.771,"text":"現在剛剛都前幾位委員都在講我們的那些檢測的設備根本就不夠,你們說114年才會大概全省300多件那商上根本更不用講有這個設備,我們連分配這件事情也都搞不太清楚,那樣的一個設備我們連看都沒有看過那你說在商上旅遊地區的話,你要怎麼來監測或者說防止這樣的一個噪音的惡化"},{"start":5721.041,"end":5747.612,"text":"在山上基本上還是要靠人力跟捲舉因為然後這種噪音的檢測說真的為什麼我們現在要科技執法最主要是它是有一個非常短時間的那種現象它就呼嘯而過啊對呼嘯而過事實上你就它假如一個一個部落大概一到兩公里的距離它一下子就過去了所以那個的確是一個挑戰所以我在想說你們在做一個規劃的話山上或者是旅遊地區應該這個噪音的規範要更嚴格"},{"start":5750.434,"end":5750.556,"text":"可以嗎?"},{"start":5752.016,"end":5781.154,"text":"我們山上特別是國家公園還是什麼應該是有一個特別區域的噪音管制因為無論多少人在提也沒有看到有人在取締或者說他們因此受罰所以造成在山上生活的那些老人家大家都知道噪音的影響對老人家可能就會引起失眠啦或者是一些認知上面的問題可以體會對 那我覺得啦應該要放一定的比例在山上來防止這樣的一個惡化好不好"},{"start":5781.434,"end":5808.836,"text":"好,我們來思考盧文也可以給我們建議在哪些地方可能要特別來加速那現在我們針對靜音噪音就是我們也沒有辦法說而來量測或者說一個具體的數據讓大家能夠生活上能夠比較安靜那通常在國外是說10點以後就不要洗衣服了那在台灣有這樣的一個規定嗎台灣譬如說我們都知道參加很多活動基本上10點以後就"},{"start":5810.554,"end":5835.7,"text":"有沒有一個強制的規範這個部分強制的規範活動的部分可能這個我比較不太清楚不曉得內政部他們我覺得現在的近鄰噪音是造成很多人的生活上的困擾因為每一個人的上班時間不一樣有的人上夜班結果有的人是回來的時候是要補眠的結果造成鄰居都在一些混亂的一個情況我給盧文報告我們噪音科技執法它是"},{"start":5836.3,"end":5861.105,"text":"沒有時間限制24小時都有在監測你舉報他以後就過來測嗎?沒有沒有那個科技指法事實上就前天後都隨時有記錄他的整個聲音的音波那同時還有攝影機針對哪一步測他的結構事實上是在我們的簡報裡面有一張圖還蠻複雜的一個一套設備那我希望針對靜零噪音這邊可以多做努力好不好"},{"start":5861.886,"end":5881.826,"text":"好,OK好,那現在就是關於我在想重機的一個罰則我覺得太少了我看看你們的報告裡面大概那個罰金大概都3000塊、3600塊這樣的一個數值那如果說一部重機大概都50萬以上甚至到百萬了按這個罰金對他來講根本就不痛不癢對,我認同是不是"},{"start":5883.408,"end":5899.364,"text":"我覺得我們應該在思考其他除了這個金錢之外是不是還要上課或者做哪些更可以殺雞儆猴的效果大概有幾個方向,我們放最後一張好,來,如人建議"},{"start":5901.274,"end":5927.055,"text":"大概就是說從它這個一些我們WHO的一些那個規範當然有來源的、有路徑的、有一些基礎設施的甚至是一些硬體設備最後就是你剛才講的行為的那我們希望在行為上面的教育比如說大部分使用這些政績的不是高射精地位的人可能在學校生活上面可能要多一點教育"},{"start":5927.495,"end":5928.376,"text":"我認同這種想法"},{"start":5949.696,"end":5950.156,"text":"謝謝盧憲伊委員的發言"},{"start":5977.148,"end":5990.294,"text":"接下來請蘇清泉委員發言謝謝主席,我請部長好,蘇元昭"},{"start":5995.916,"end":6013.036,"text":"市長,恭喜喔,脫離苦海啦感謝,不會啦,別說這樣,我學習很多這個,你我愛人是牛肉腸你我愛人也是大掌缸來這邊,正常人都會變得不正常不會不會,是不是很太客氣了"},{"start":6013.536,"end":6016.897,"text":"今天大家都一直在 圍著噪音在走 讓部長見識見識 來"},{"start":6055.047,"end":6055.407,"text":"三、二、一"},{"start":6078,"end":6096.908,"text":"這個台灣這個是一個很棒的行業137點似乎你還要再上來看車子看車子看車子這個都沒掛牌 沒有掛牌"},{"start":6108.667,"end":6113.592,"text":"還在噴火 還在噴火 還在烤 烤汁部長 你看了這個 你覺得怎麼樣我看了是很興奮欸你看 這個 這個排氣管 一支排氣管都要十幾萬"},{"start":6131.892,"end":6159.879,"text":"我要這裡另列的看法台灣這個改裝的行業非常的很棒喔我們做的材料還有外銷還賺了不少錢所以年輕人他沒掛牌啊你要怎麼換但是唯一不好就是他在室內在室內測試空氣不好你看都是在室內車子也是那車子最多他就掛臨時牌一年繳個二三十萬他還爽"},{"start":6162.026,"end":6178.34,"text":"林氏牌你如果沒辦法開檔啊對不對?對不對?阿姨這可能是這群人大概都在玩車的阿在他們自己的場域嘛所以這個要怎麼引導啦不要剛剛在講一直進阿我這裡有一個建議齁這個大鵬灣國際賽車場現在閒避很慢的要怎麼引導讓他去那邊去那邊"},{"start":6187.365,"end":6210.16,"text":"為什麼呢?這個大鵬灣國際賽車場是我在第8屆立委的時候我是促成之一的主力之一那那個時候是希望F1去那邊後來因為長度不夠所以變成F2而已那現在因為大鵬灣飆出去東方集團解約了重財了現在要再找新的合約但是這個賽車場就"},{"start":6212.982,"end":6234.258,"text":"丟在那邊是蠻可惜的我們是不是把這個產業你看那年輕人看到那個就爽啊他們就是要玩這個那為什麼不把他引導到這裡第二我們稅收也增加然後讓他們有地方去去去花樣一下然後車子也可以都可以摩托車也可以"},{"start":6235.683,"end":6236.023,"text":"所以蘇文"},{"start":6251.389,"end":6275.712,"text":"其實你的觀念很好 我覺得這種才是既然我們禁止不了那就應該是引導在特定的場域讓這群人可以去發揮也符合他的興趣應該是這樣又不會影響到別人應該是用引導來取代這個禁止的這個是可以思考的方式張斌那個賽車場也是也沒有達到F1"},{"start":6276.932,"end":6286.398,"text":"所以這個都是F1以下的所以我們要把它弄因為這個長度不夠啦所以如果能夠達到F1的話當然是要把它弄成F1"},{"start":6287.546,"end":6295.128,"text":"所以剛剛看到這個是另外一個角度這是一個產業從另外一個角度來思考不是妖魔鬼怪沒那麼嚴重啦但是他們到路上去那飆車就是不對那會在路上飆車就因為他沒有場地嘛所以你本來你要引導所以"},{"start":6308.319,"end":6308.339,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":6336.775,"end":6365.054,"text":"我們現在的聯合機場你剛剛講了什麼什麼要警察跟環保的因為警察不能去取締噪音嘛所以一定要跟警察跟環保就發生一個事情啊你看你們噪音給人家花了3000、6000這麼多少當然還是要喊說喊殺喊打最好花到一萬、兩萬我沒見但是呢你交通對這邊用交通條例43條那前面是用第8條噪音的11條噪音的"},{"start":6368.096,"end":6393.253,"text":"警察開一張單環保開一張單行政罰則可以一事二罰嗎?它只是一個噪音而已捏部長我想假如一罪大概不能二罰啦就看他那個行為是屬於哪一個當然站在這個人民的權利就讓他選擇他要接受兩個裡面哪一個我個人的看法"},{"start":6395.589,"end":6411.818,"text":"這感覺給人家吊罩吊6個月捏你知道嗎?有這樣幹的嗎?所以我今天講的都是用另外一個角度來看事情我們當部長就要講官話回到學校當教授就要講實話"},{"start":6414.383,"end":6434.217,"text":"沒有啦,我都講實話我沒有在講官話河山廠的廠長退休前三天五天還在跟我吵架他說你有缺電沒有缺電結果他退休之後兩天我去拜訪他我請他當我的核能顧問他說缺電缺得一塌糊塗我說你神經病啊"},{"start":6434.417,"end":6436.058,"text":"最近要增加到300多套"},{"start":6464.428,"end":6465.069,"text":"對,306套,會再增加"},{"start":6474.056,"end":6501.625,"text":"可能我回去再了解我們分配的一個原則因為有時候大家各縣市也比較互相比較來比較去當然假如說真的落差很大可以稍微反映一下我相信環境部在做這個分配應該有他一定的原則包括縣市政府的配合度願意不願意來配合款這個也相關因為現在數量都還很少所以數量很少的時候在那裡比較說哪裡多哪裡少可能"},{"start":6504.146,"end":6508.968,"text":"我們來爭取更多的設備最後一個問題最後一個問題就是電動車現在都沒有聲音啦電動車我看沒什麼噪音會不會太安靜了會不會發生車禍有點吵吵的不習慣"},{"start":6527.654,"end":6538.663,"text":"市長現在這電動車它很多感測器啦其實你看我們包括Tesla還是什麼你在高速公路跑它旁邊有車載它會有聲音跟反應啦所以也是有這個我覺得車這個車上它會設置沒有這是它開車的人它旁邊一大堆sensor"},{"start":6554.677,"end":6570.705,"text":"但是外面的人：比如說騎摩托車的人騎電動車一直騎過去,你也不知道會發生什麼事所以我們的噪音你說70以上不行,80以上不行剛剛盧委員有講大概70、80那些範圍那如果電動車的噪音是0那還得了"},{"start":6576.848,"end":6580.711,"text":"電動車的部分在這個國際安全法規裡面有要求他最基本的一個這個警示音啊國內的法規跟聯合國跟歐盟的法規都一樣"},{"start":6606.988,"end":6628.639,"text":"我在西部提供給委員資料,但是要求一個警示音。警示的音量。好,謝謝。好,謝謝蘇文。好,謝謝蘇清泉委員的發言。下一位我們請王信煌委員發言。謝謝主席,我們請部長。請部長。"},{"start":6634.712,"end":6647.4,"text":"華為,你好部長,我看你今天好像很高興是因為心情好像特別好不會啦,平常也都內心都非常淡定"},{"start":6650.282,"end":6650.382,"text":"OK﹖"},{"start":6667.301,"end":6684.459,"text":"可能很多機車主很喜歡在那邊飆車那尤其是在深夜的時候或清晨的時候其實那個聲音真的都非常的大那我們也時常請地方的環保局就是要去測這個噪音的聲音"},{"start":6685.901,"end":6705.679,"text":"我們當然也希望就是說我們有這一套的這個科技執法那是不是可以裝在最需要的地方所以我不知道說你們現在有200預計是200多部嘛那你們的標準是就是說地方政府跟你們申請那你們是預計要裝在哪裡你們有一個標準嗎"},{"start":6705.999,"end":6731.112,"text":"事實上跟黃委員報告我們基本上是補助地方的環保局那像這種反應的話理論上應該是地方政府、地方環保局他們去評估根據民眾的反應說哪一個路段經常都有這些飆車管還是噪音比較高那地方環保局在那個地方去裝飾我們不會環境部所以是有地方政府自己去評估"},{"start":6733.333,"end":6744.201,"text":"那你們有一個標準就是說要什麼樣的這個程度或者是就是說那個車輛多少才可以裝嗎?有這樣的一個規定嗎?我們現在這個構想就是因為數量比較有限所以可能會讓它比較朝向移動式的這邊放幾個月然後換個地方換個地方那這樣把這個設備的效果能夠加大"},{"start":6758.712,"end":6773.619,"text":"那至於說地點我們會再跟環保局這邊再談一下因為噪音的陳情大概有兩種種類一種就是在比方上下班的時候那個很多人很多車的時候很吵這是一種另外一種是比較安靜的地方偶爾很吵那就吵得受不了"},{"start":6773.999,"end":6795.408,"text":"所以這兩種類型我想我們跟環保局在談的時候請他們一起考慮進來好,那我們當然希望就是說剛剛很多委員就講尤其山上或者是在平常它就是很安靜的地方那突然間這一條路又直又好騎所以重機就很喜歡在那邊飆車所以我覺得這個也是一個重點"},{"start":6796.929,"end":6818.408,"text":"我們未來是不是可以請地方的環保局,類似這樣的一個地方是不是可以就是加強就是科技執法這樣子是,不過跟黃文報告我們210套裡面有固定的109套移動101套差不多1比1左右固定跟移動說真的都有它的優缺點你固定"},{"start":6819.368,"end":6826.813,"text":"但是移動的話就變成你可能要人那人半夜的時候可能他就沒有辦法去執行所以移動跟固定好像都有一些"},{"start":6840.851,"end":6866.591,"text":"有缺點當然假如多數量夠多的話就不會是問題那數量不多那就要去衡量這兩個謝謝那部長接下來請教就是說我們現在有很多汽車或者是機車其實它都是檢驗合格的那如果說像未來我們這種科技執法進行之後那也有少部分可能它原本就是檢驗合格那"},{"start":6867.412,"end":6875.947,"text":"透過科技執法他也有可能被罰我不知道說你們有做這樣的一個統計到目前為止這樣子的數量是有多少"},{"start":6876.84,"end":6896.01,"text":"所以它原本就是一個合格的就是說它的這個排氣管是領有環境部認證的那個但是呢它有可能被滑那被滑的原因純粹是因為它的噪音還是超過這個那個標準那這個原因當然可能是"},{"start":6898.711,"end":6918.217,"text":"這個車主自己又把哪一個消音器還是什麼拿掉了那當然也可能說他使用某一段時間然後老舊的那個排氣管就是已經失去它消音的效果就被罰通常是這樣或者的話假如說是新買的結果又突然被罰我相信車主絕對會去告"},{"start":6919.137,"end":6945.176,"text":"會去申訴啦他被罰他一定會申訴所以理論上是比較不會有所謂的冤枉的情況來話那就是部長講的可能就是使用一段時間或是自己本身自己再去做一個對有些會把消音器還是什麼拿掉甚至是現在剛剛另外一個委員不是有提到這個分段式新聞有人搞不好就把其中一段拆掉換成新聞也有可能啦"},{"start":6946.356,"end":6964.666,"text":"那部長我想請教就是說我們要這個檢測這個噪音的話可能就是警察的部分他是沒辦法直接開單嘛有的他是直接拍照或是有人反應的話他可能到現場可能拍個照那也許就請他再到"},{"start":6965.134,"end":6986.312,"text":"在合格檢驗的地方再去檢驗那像這樣子的話我想請教就是說類似這個狀況就是譬如說去拍照完之後請他到合格的地方再去做檢驗的話這樣的合格的這個機率有多少譬如說我們可能認為說他可能這個噪音超標"},{"start":6987.512,"end":7010.83,"text":"其實請這個相關單位來拍照完之後那他又去做檢查檢查完之後是合格的這種比例到底是有多高?有做這樣的一個統計嗎?待會請張師長來回答比例我這邊再稍微先回答一下環境部對於假如他的排氣管是沒有經過環境部認證那從明年開始"},{"start":7011.85,"end":7024.577,"text":"今年是有一年的一個緩衝期明年開始假如使用沒有經過環境部認可的排氣管也要被開花然後即使合格的排氣管"},{"start":7025.802,"end":7051.556,"text":"噪音量超過也要太晚然後接下來請我們張市長來回答剛剛的比例的問題目前畫面上這個案子來講應該是桃園在執行那個淨桃專案的一些這個是直接到修車廠、機車行去拍照然後再請他到那個可能再去做檢驗我覺得"},{"start":7053.662,"end":7065.145,"text":"這個真的是還蠻奇怪的我們的環保人員你去看這個機車行然後看他有沒有營業登記這個也不是環保局該做的事啊"},{"start":7065.751,"end":7072.276,"text":"所以應該我們環境部這邊跟地方政府應該要有一套標準如果說你們要到那個這個機車行或是你們在外面去坐這個機車的話你們應該有一套標準然後讓地方"},{"start":7086.528,"end":7099.923,"text":"的環保局可以有依循的一個方式好我跟黃委員報告齁環境部定期齁會跟地方環保局針對不同的業務會去做一個業務的這個交流跟檢討的會議"},{"start":7101.525,"end":7121.273,"text":"那這個議題既然黃委員也特別提到我請張司長在下一次環境部跟地方環保局同仁在做業務交流溝通的時候也把這個案例拿出來讓各地方大概就是大家有一致的標準不要造成擾民的一個動作"},{"start":7122.153,"end":7149.47,"text":"那我希望就是說環境部你應該是定一個標準那另外就是說你們在路邊可能這個都是地方政府在執行在地方在路邊執行這個噪音或者是那個排氣的這個部分那其實我覺得他們的車輛就隨便在馬路旁邊就直接停下來就我覺得這個也不對所以我覺得你們應該也要一個標準就是說中央這個環境部"},{"start":7150.791,"end":7166.051,"text":"跟地方政府應該要有一個類似我們如果要檢測的話那你這個車子要放在哪裡不是說馬路隨便你就停下來然後就請人家停下來然後做一檢測我覺得這樣也不對而且這個也會很危險"},{"start":7168.137,"end":7184.213,"text":"我們來檢討一下就是說這種移動式的檢測設備是要在什麼地方來擺設會比較好也不要造成民眾包括交通上面的一個困擾跟阻礙這一點我們來檢討一下那這個機場車直接這樣子這樣也是合法嗎"},{"start":7189.951,"end":7213.18,"text":"我們對那個聲音照相的設置有一定的規範這我想我們找環保局再檢討一下因為可能各環保局執行的方式我可不可以請一下那個交通部就是有關這個車輛做檢測這稽查車那他做稽查的時候他的器具就直接擦在這樣子其實這樣是合法的嗎?"},{"start":7214.581,"end":7229.445,"text":"跟委員報告一下車輛規格分成兩個部分如果說涉及是這個長久固定在車輛的話就會涉及到這個車輛的這個規格變更 那個要到監理機關去做變更那這輛機車的部分應該是屬於短暫時用附掛的一個方式 這個是沒有關係 這個部分的話"},{"start":7235.526,"end":7258.619,"text":"這樣子這個照理講它這個是一個作為環境前面應該有相關引導的部分那如果是引導的話那是一個等於說是說保護啦這個如果說像這個環境間在做聯絡清查的話前面應該會有警察在引導那實質內容會是這個環保人員跟監理機關的人員在座位我想說這個可以更細部一點可以做得更好一點"},{"start":7258.899,"end":7284.849,"text":"好,所以我在這邊請我們環境部針對地方政府你們要去執行稽查的話第一個你車輛的擺的地方我覺得安全應該是安全安全為考量第二個就是說你們要到這個機車行或者是這個我覺得你們也要有一個標準啊應該要有一個標準讓地方的環保局可以有一個依循好不好好,謝謝謝謝黃委員謝謝"},{"start":7292.931,"end":7295.633,"text":"謝謝黃旭安委員的發言那現在先休息10分鐘"},{"start":7902.52,"end":7905.742,"text":"好,現在繼續開會請圖全級委員發言好,謝謝主席再麻煩請我們薛部長請薛部長好,圖恩好"},{"start":7930.78,"end":7945.4,"text":"謝謝徐部長今天也針對我們噪音管制的問題我們了解世界衛生組織他針對住宅區戶外他平均的音量是以55分貝來做建議的標準"},{"start":7947.222,"end":7967.261,"text":"所以經過我們調查的顯示75到80分貝會讓人感覺吵雜不舒適那50到55分貝以下我們會感覺比較舒適對不對那針對這一部分環境部有沒有針對住宅區的音量設計類似的這些標準"},{"start":7970.389,"end":7972.61,"text":"所以我們針對各個區塊都有設一些噪音管制的標準嘛"},{"start":7998.936,"end":8021.259,"text":"我可以讓大家瞭解一下因為我們有看這個統計從2021年到2023年我們看從2021年開始桃園龜山、基隆、新北樹林、新北淡水、臺北萬華、高雄這兩年的時間就發生了因為噪音而殺人的事件"},{"start":8022.2,"end":8042.327,"text":"所以這個幾個共同點據我們了解幾乎都是在集合式住宅或者社區那針對這些部分不知道我們環境部有沒有針對這些社區噪音造成的這些影響有沒有做過這些研究有沒有提出一些因應的辦法"},{"start":8043.733,"end":8064.549,"text":"給圖文報告這種社區這個鄰里之間的一些爭執事實上可能是警察單位來在負責大概是環境部很難會因為鄰居比如說包括樓上唱卡拉OK放聲音很大還是怎麼樣他們通常應該是會向警政單位檢舉"},{"start":8068.252,"end":8096.347,"text":"今天會提出這個就是因為說希望我們環境部能夠重視這個噪音所影響的問題也希望對於我們管委會的功能其實很重要也希望我們環境部結合我們內政部還有衛福部希望能夠針對這些部分做一些研究希望說能夠從我們各部會之間能夠提出一些方法盡量讓這些悲劇不要這樣子發生"},{"start":8096.667,"end":8114.358,"text":"我認同圖文的建議這個應該是真的要跨部位對我希望說做一些研究是不是在這之前能夠提出一些因應的方法一些改善措施希望能夠超前部署不要讓這些悲劇一再的發生圖文這個建議非常正面非常好我認同"},{"start":8114.938,"end":8140.331,"text":"那針對噪音的部分其實我們知道噪音其實最大宗應該是車輛的噪音那從去年開始桃園市長張三正上來以後有推出一個淨桃專案因為桃園市針對這個車輛噪音這個民眾反映很多年反映給很多的單位都一直沒有辦法解決造成民眾很大的困擾後來我們發現推這個淨桃專案之後"},{"start":8143.793,"end":8169.104,"text":"從去年6月份開始他設了稽查點設了50處然後這整個陳情案件就明顯下降了14%那是不是我們環境部對這個淨桃專案有做一些了解是的我們環境部補助的桃園市有27部的這個噪音的這個檢測的這個設備所以各位看到的這一部應該"},{"start":8169.924,"end":8174.068,"text":"對,其實我們後來研究其實他這個淨濤專案他要歸功在這個聲音跟照相的科技執法因為以前稽查的"},{"start":8193.447,"end":8221.778,"text":"困難度在於說他要配合警察局環保局監理站等各單位設這個臨檢點聯合稽查才有辦法取締所以造成他的難度很高後來發現這個聲音照相科技執法之後發現這個成效很好那是不是針對這一部分我們環境部行政院好像針對這一部分好像有提出預算對不對是給圖文報告原本是從112到116編列"},{"start":8223.318,"end":8249.531,"text":"這裡面講的1.9億購買306套啦那因為現在大家需求非常這個殷切我們已經把時間縮短到明年底就來完成這個請購的306套給地方政府那未來事實上剛剛也很多委員非常贊成也非常支持我們所以我們希望說115接下來再有一個3年或4年計畫來加速"},{"start":8251.692,"end":8253.514,"text":"說這個306套好像單就臺中市好像就拿走了50套"},{"start":8267.685,"end":8282.322,"text":"所以是不是針對這個預算的部分他們的申請,台中市申請他申請還沒有拿排氣管所以其實重點在於說大家都覺得這個科技執法這個部分成效非常好"},{"start":8282.782,"end":8303.364,"text":"所以各縣市都希望能夠增加這個科技執法的設備來嚇阻這個車輛所造成的噪音的問題那所以凸顯這一塊希望針對這一塊的預算我相信很多委員都會支持那也希望說能夠把我們這個車輛的噪音做一個很好的改善"},{"start":8304.105,"end":8326.669,"text":"我們會積極來努力,爭取更多預算來投入到噪音的這個科技執法好,那其實除了車輛噪音之外,像我們桃園市飛機所影響這個交通噪音因為桃園市有我們全台灣最大的國際機場那所以它的航空噪音也是全國最嚴重的地方"},{"start":8327.149,"end":8327.169,"text":"因為這個..."},{"start":8354.085,"end":8363.123,"text":"民航的部分可能是交通部的權責範圍是不是可以請交通部來回答"},{"start":8369.795,"end":8387.14,"text":"我今天報告我這邊是公共運輸室是針對車輛的部分、航空的部分好沒關係那針對我們環境部我們噪音防治法規定它這個防治區兩年就要檢討一次可是2021年已經檢討一次正常2023年就要檢討那是不是2024年我們有這個規劃嗎?"},{"start":8393.181,"end":8408.112,"text":"我覺得我們應該是定期要來檢討,看看有哪些地方不足當然委員只要有更好的一些建議或想法像桃園它是屬於航空城,所以的確有一個特殊的需要"},{"start":8409.113,"end":8435.976,"text":"因為之前當然可能疫情的關係啦那現在慢慢疫情已經趨緩那從之前飛機的架次又從22.5萬現在又恢復到31萬可是它全盛時期是52萬我們現在認為第三跑道再增設下去我們這飛機的架次一定會更多是不是針對這個噪音防制有可能會擴大影響到更多的民眾所以"},{"start":8437.577,"end":8461.526,"text":"針對這個噪音防制希望能夠再重新檢討讓我們的民眾能夠分配到他應該有的噪音防制回饋金那在這邊也跟部長這邊討論一下就是因為針對我們噪音防制我們的計收方式從之前應該是最大起飛的重量還有我們的起飛的音量現在比利時也有針對"},{"start":8462.546,"end":8477.574,"text":"非基金的部分也納入新生肖的關稅制度那是不是也針對非基金這一部分是不是也可以納入這噪音防治這個回饋金的部分去做這個計收的方式"},{"start":8480.275,"end":8505.893,"text":"這個我想當然我們會請交通部來考量但是我個人覺得可能這個應該他會是考慮產生的噪音包括能源的效率等等其他因素至於機靈有時候我跟圖文分享一下經驗我們在二月初到三月初不是跟美國NASA做中南部的這個空氣品質三度空間的那個測試嗎"},{"start":8508.214,"end":8533.673,"text":"那美國那一架飛機是54年的DC-8的那個機型54年結果它有辦法在我們的跑道裡面大概是10來公尺就低飛然後去蒐集我們整個中南部包括台南機場、花蓮機場的空氣品質所以我個人的感覺是機零有時候也很難去當作一個標準因為裡面的可能發動機還是什麼都會更新"},{"start":8534.133,"end":8550.042,"text":"那針對這部份也希望說針對噪音防制規定能夠讓這個受影響的居民能夠得到他們應有的回饋我認同我認同好感謝謝謝部長謝謝圖文謝謝謝謝圖全集委員接下來請王振旭委員發言"},{"start":8561.956,"end":8564.024,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩薛部長請薛部長"},{"start":8569.552,"end":8590.933,"text":"王維好部長好謝謝剛剛聽到很多相關機車噪音帶來的影響那我這邊也根據今天排的議程來跟您瞭解一下對於交通工具噪音檢測量能的部分那其實噪音對國人的健康影響"},{"start":8592.054,"end":8614.837,"text":"還有需要更多的研究才能夠讓我們知道噪音對於除了一般健康之外還造成了哪一些的影響所以在提這個噪音檢測之前我們還是先來討論一下機車排氣檢測的問題因為噪音跟氣體對於民眾健康的影響事實上還是要做一些區隔那同時也要多了解"},{"start":8615.638,"end":8639.616,"text":"目前機車的量已經接近了1500萬輛如果把這個汽車也加進來的話是2300萬輛幾乎是每一個國民都會有一輛代步的工具這個是密集度非常高的一個不知道是好還是說我們有什麼更好的方式來改善在我們讓這個交通順暢的同時移動順暢的同時能夠達到好的這種環境的保護"},{"start":8645.149,"end":8671.027,"text":"謝謝王委員這個建議這個問題事實上因為我們臺灣基本上地狹人稠道路通常也比較小所以機車會那麼流行事實上是有它的原因因為真的用機車比開車有時候真的方便太多了特別是你到市區到比較狹小的地方所以大概機車這一塊一直真的很難"},{"start":8672.128,"end":8698.9,"text":"短時間降下來所以除非我們的大眾運輸工具真的非常便利我幾乎可以不用車子我到哪一個地方就可以有大眾運輸工具所以這些年來不管環境部不管交通部經濟部我們在對汽車的一些太舊換新的政策事實上也做了一些調整早期就是只要你"},{"start":8699.56,"end":8724.741,"text":"因為這個新車它的效率比較高省油的效率所以就鼓勵即使你是燃油車也是鼓勵這個太舊換新那後來隨著這個碳排以及隨著空氣污染的因素就會逐漸鼓勵這個燃油車換成電動車可是我們剛剛也看到一些資料這樣子機車數目並沒有減少因為我們的習慣沒有改變"},{"start":8726.903,"end":8743.385,"text":"我們本來是希望說民眾也可以減少機車而去搭乘大眾運輸工具但是發現沒有啊整個機車的數量各位也可以從網文你看你的數據來顯示所以現在我們基本上不鼓勵"},{"start":8746.087,"end":8771.8,"text":"從這個能源的效率從排碳去這個太舊換新的但是當然也允許這個地方政府他在開發工業區他需要不管是這個碳的這個減量的額度或者空氣污染減量額度可以去做一個鼓勵的措施去做增量抵範的這個政策這個是還有在執行的"},{"start":8772.66,"end":8792.187,"text":"對,所以政策上有改變有更好的誘因能夠讓民眾再知道說使用交通工具的時候它其實也要付出一些社會的成本代價那如果能夠幫助社會減少相關的這些污染那我們知道這個通勤的空污的確是造成目前"},{"start":8793.027,"end":8807.641,"text":"不管是PM2.5也好、液氧化碳等等造成的影響都遠比電力業還要高很多所以如果透過剛剛部長所提到的這些方案或者是誘因的話希望能夠至少減少這些方面帶來的影響"},{"start":8808.642,"end":8825.767,"text":"那這個空污的部分PM2.5對於民眾健康尤其是目前知道如果跟癌症相關的話那可能跟包括這個肺部的癌症是讓我們非常擔心的那我們如果往下看的話曾經也有一些研究"},{"start":8826.767,"end":8844.137,"text":"在大部分都在都會區因為都會區造成的影響相對是比較高這是2017年的資料我們可以看到如果從這個臺北車站往不同的方向處理走不同的路線的時候在東西南北發現這個PM2.5的監測值就差很多"},{"start":8848.78,"end":8863.852,"text":"現在已經過了7年了不知道還有沒有相關的研究提供民眾當自己是機車主的時候在不同的地方如何能夠去了解掌握自己的健康或者是暴露在2.5方面這個部分的影響"},{"start":8865.596,"end":8887.711,"text":"給委員報告齁 這個研究報告是環境部之前我們內部同仁好像是自己做的一些研究成果啦齁 那我覺得像這種對民眾健康息息相關的一些自發性的研究應該可以繼續來推動當然我們也很期待譬如說因為這個議題是跟大眾的健康非常"},{"start":8889.032,"end":8908.11,"text":"關係非常密切,只要能夠再結合衛福部、我們跟國衛醫院跟協助機構能夠在這一塊多投入更多的一個經費那應該是有助於我們瞭解空氣的品質跟我們健康之間的關係就會更好啦"},{"start":8908.47,"end":8927.719,"text":"那因為環境部本身自己的我們的研究經費我在環境部這些自己來看我是覺得還蠻可惜的就是說環境部的經費他比較偏向在執行政策面或者民眾生活環境品質相關的部分反而對於比較"},{"start":8928.88,"end":8951.915,"text":"算是前瞻性的或者說跨領域的研究的這一部分在經費上應該還有努力的空間我們將來會折成我們的國家環境研究院事實上在這一塊可以多投入一些經費當然我們會來爭取更多的科技預算來做這方面的研究是,現在部長如果回到學界"},{"start":8953.336,"end":8955.339,"text":"我非常樂意這是我應該做的我非常樂意好 謝謝我們可以看到其實機車"},{"start":8970.299,"end":9000.299,"text":"﹗"},{"start":9000.401,"end":9000.421,"text":"哼!"},{"start":9001.752,"end":9029.883,"text":"王偉恩這個數據非常好理論上應該是正好相反對不對新車這個即使前幾年沒有檢查大概都OK只要他出場的時候已經合格反而使用越久這些效率啦不管是這個排氣啊氣體的過濾效率就會更差那應該盜檢要更高不過這個王偉恩這個數據顯現結果正好相反我們來思考看看有沒有"},{"start":9031.443,"end":9045.991,"text":"這個更有效的方法應該我個人覺得這個倒減率的確是年齡越高偏低這個是有一些是再麻煩布里針對這個狀況做一些了解跟處理的方案"},{"start":9046.791,"end":9073.847,"text":"我們再看一下這個噪音對我們國人健康的影響剛剛也有人提到其實WHO一直在示警這個低噪音的確是一個很重要的一個保護作用可以避免民眾身心健康的影響如果我們能夠有效去把這個噪音的控制下來不管是白天的或是夜間的噪音應該對我們的健康影響都會得到更大的改善我們可以往下看"},{"start":9075.868,"end":9098.926,"text":"歐洲認為這是很重要的議題需要大家一起來努力可以我們往下看發現說歐洲認為因為噪音造成的影響提早讓死亡這是必須要特別去改善的所以他們也提了一個具體的數字要求我們可以往下看說他們希望在2030年長期受到交通噪音影響的困擾人數要從2017年相較就是要減少30%"},{"start":9102.568,"end":9119.207,"text":"不知道我們國家有沒有相關的一個長期的規劃說未來我們需要如何去執行一個定量的一個目標來做一個可以去根據這個目標來做依據的一種檢討模式"},{"start":9120.01,"end":9137.103,"text":"給王委員報告,我覺得今天跟王委員這樣子交流意見我覺得受益很多因為環境部的確早期比較偏向空氣污染而且是長久傳統我們環保署在座的就是空氣污染"},{"start":9137.883,"end":9141.506,"text":"我個人覺得環境部未來對聲音跟健康的關係應該要投入更多的"},{"start":9156.977,"end":9158.738,"text":"在這個聲音的對健康方面應該要做更多的研究"},{"start":9174.13,"end":9197.562,"text":"謝謝部長的言諾因為我們知道環境部基本上就是噪音還有空污的問題那這個其實都必須要未來如何能夠在針對全民的健康的維護之下希望也有機會更多可以跟衛生環境部這邊有做更多的連結讓對於這樣的研究可以更好因為我們發現真的"},{"start":9198.883,"end":9199.163,"text":"接下來請楊瓊英委員發言"},{"start":9230.341,"end":9256.698,"text":"謝謝主席楊群發言再請部長請薛部長好楊委員好部長好噪音認證排氣管在執行力和政策方面本期認為應該是要宣導兼顧是嗎是執行跟宣導因為這個很重要民眾對於這個噪音它是有很大的"},{"start":9257.338,"end":9259.041,"text":"昨年修正的相關法規裡頭我們有將"},{"start":9273.582,"end":9274.263,"text":"對,明天明天"},{"start":9288.879,"end":9295.442,"text":"違規則會怎樣呢?違規則要有什麼處分?要罰錢嗎?我告訴你喔,要罰錢,最重的可以吊銷牌照,是嗎?是不是?我們這邊原來喔,就是說假如他的排氣管"},{"start":9311.047,"end":9332.034,"text":"沒有經過環境部認證他的罰款是比較少就是900到1800那假如他的噪音特別是在管制區的一個地方大概就是1800到3600那假如在特定的一個區域的話開始罰款的時候是3000那可以"},{"start":9332.774,"end":9356.423,"text":"一次一直在滑那也可以滑到3萬所以我們必須要去宣導嘛好那我們預估在114年元旦要上路剩下大概半年多的時間對不對所以呢為了要改善我們的環境呢安全有助於就是從源頭去管理那本下請教現在的相關制度建立的進度怎麼樣呢"},{"start":9357.663,"end":9369.998,"text":"目前沿途管理我們就是請這個假如他擁有我們環境部公布的大概兩百二五八個這個排氣管"},{"start":9372.421,"end":9372.641,"text":"可以減少很多的舟車勞頓"},{"start":9390.387,"end":9406.424,"text":"是而且速度會更快那換句話說噪音的管制認證標準你們目前所規劃的就誠如剛剛部長所說的是如此嗎是所以我們希望規劃好上路前要有充分"},{"start":9407.205,"end":9431.983,"text":"的這個宣導讓社會大眾來了解本期具體建議你不要只有放在你的網站上面因為沒有幾個人會看啊你可以看你的瀏覽人數所以我希望呢因為這個是對民眾也非常的期待不管是用獎勵或者是用通路合作的等等方式應該要去宣導要上路前必須要去宣導讓社會大眾來了解好不好"},{"start":9432.463,"end":9448.036,"text":"好謝謝楊委員的提醒那同時跟楊委員報告就是說除了環境部之外事實上地方環保局也非常重要我們每一次像這種政策一定都事先有跟地方環保局去做溝通就合作嘛所以我剛剛跟你說的嘛通通合作"},{"start":9449.538,"end":9471.158,"text":"一定要大力宣導讓大家知道。本席要跟你討論看費的問題。上次本席也跟你討論過。因此我們在3月26日雖然沒有達成怎麼樣的方式但是至少有繼續在討論。所以未來要上任的"},{"start":9471.758,"end":9497.72,"text":"新的部長他也說他上任後會讓大家多多的來溝通也就針對於減碳的需求全民的一個減碳需求的一個共識當然最重要的您剛才也有回答到說我們不是只有以碳費來遏止這個觀念本身非常的贊成所以需要國家生態系的一個改"},{"start":9499.14,"end":9524.03,"text":"這是非常重要的那所以呢2025年起要開始開增碳費很多的這個企業界大家都很緊張到底什麼時間那是不是在2025年要開增呢事實上我跟楊委員報告這裡面現在關鍵是這樣企業希望環境部早點公佈碳費的收費辦法以及自主減量的一個辦法"},{"start":9525.61,"end":9544.603,"text":"還有就是指定目標因為他們很重要他要有脫炭的能力啊他也要有接軌國際啊他總是要準備啊所以那三個執法必須先依靠讓我們的企業知道他們怎麼去寫自主減量計畫書才能夠享受"},{"start":9555.61,"end":9582.309,"text":"還沒有定案嗎?好!就因為還沒有定案所以本席要請教您因為要新接任的部長他也要說他也說了要好好的來溝通您有什麼建議給他?我想這個我們的彭準部長他也是氣象專家那他對近年排放這一塊事實上也有他的專業那我們會在這個月的時間之內"},{"start":9583.83,"end":9602.267,"text":"會把我們所知道的包括我自己所知道的會全部來跟我們彭準部長來分享我相信他應該是可以去無縫接軌對無縫接軌當然是必須要努力這麼做但是問題是本席剛才請問的你有什麼"},{"start":9603.288,"end":9624.028,"text":"最需要建議給我們的這個新任的部長我要給他的建議蠻多的啦我大概很短的時間也大概不可能那你舉例啊我會讓他就是說在政策上的推動應該是有一致一貫性事實上彭準部長他也蠻認同現在環境部針對碳會徵收的方法"},{"start":9624.528,"end":9628.992,"text":"所以你講的是宣導嘛但是本席所提問你有什麼特別要建議給我們的部長的?"},{"start":9651.946,"end":9669.691,"text":"我覺得彭準部長應該很優秀所以也沒有特別建議就是說這個堅持我們在環境永續以及我們2050進行排放支援循環、零廢氣等大方向的推動這樣就會非常棒"},{"start":9670.371,"end":9696.236,"text":"這是你給他的建議是這是你給他的建議一起加油我們現在隨時要聯繫都很方便啦所以楊委員放心好了這個我覺得會這個贊能力沒關係你可以用書面資料給本席你要建議現在的部長到底是哪些方向好嗎謝謝好謝謝你謝謝楊委員謝謝楊瓊英委員接下來請李昆城委員發言"},{"start":9705.407,"end":9732.283,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長,薛部長好,李文好部長,這個車輛噪音其實大家都很重視這個不論是在我們的都會區或是其實一般縣市過去在當議員的時候那其實就常常這種檢舉案可是檢舉案似乎很難成立就是說這個除非是固定式的"},{"start":9733.479,"end":9736.882,"text":"有關噪音的處罰標準白天晚上有不一樣嗎?晚上有特別嚴格嗎?"},{"start":9756.158,"end":9775.447,"text":"市長有分別嗎?有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有有"},{"start":9786.785,"end":9812.256,"text":"車速的話應該是白天晚上都一樣車速白天晚上都一樣那就沒有分嘛所以我的意思是說那你同樣的這個車速那它早上是86分貝然後比如說50的話是86分貝才違規那晚上也是86分貝才違規嗎分貝數是一樣但是那個法爾是不一樣晚上會加倍處罰那晚上的分貝數有辦法把它降低嗎"},{"start":9815.339,"end":9819.228,"text":"對啊,因為其實白天跟晚上的這個86是不一樣的感覺"},{"start":9822.508,"end":9850.188,"text":"當然你們是,我看你們這一個晚上的話,夜間時段是財閥會比較重嗎?這個劉恩的建議很好,因為晚上他的背景值也比較低,所以你高一點,哇那種感受就很...就是說你的白天的86跟晚上86是不一樣的啊,感受不一樣嗎?是,我覺得可以檢討。是不是,就是說因為其實在夜間的這個住宅區啊,你搞不好你50分貝你就覺得很吵了,那可是你們還是墊到86啊?"},{"start":9851.892,"end":9860.03,"text":"所以我剛才問說那你們這個白天晚上標準有沒有不一樣那可是這樣問起來都是採一樣86跟90嘛那這有沒有檢討空間啊?"},{"start":9861.497,"end":9885.144,"text":"李委員我們來檢討一下好不好李委員剛剛講的是有道理對啊不然就是大家都一樣可是晚上一定不一樣晚上就是六七十分貝你就覺得很吵搞不好不用那麼高就很吵好不好這個你們來檢討一下我們來檢討一下好那第二個就是說現在你們一個固定式跟移動式的這一個科技執法210套嘛"},{"start":9887.585,"end":9899.436,"text":"預計在114年增加到306套,現在增加大概100套左右,第一個明年有辦法完成嗎?"},{"start":9900.967,"end":9917.188,"text":"我們希望明年本來是到116...所以這一套是多少錢啊?這套多少錢?這個一套一百萬...那都是中央付嗎?目前給我有報告目前是中央付一部分地方要配合款比例是多少?"},{"start":9918.51,"end":9935.575,"text":"比例跟各縣市的財政條件不同會有不同比如新北市咧大概比如說中央出多少地方出多少我的意思是說當然現在我看你們給新北已經算是最多了36套了可是我們新北很大"},{"start":9936.475,"end":9948.367,"text":"三十六年分一分,各區就分不到什麼了。我就想說,這個如果一百萬的話,我不知道是預算不夠還是怎麼樣,其實你明年多增加一百套其實也是不夠啊。我們這個東西有很難生產出來嗎?"},{"start":9955.179,"end":9973.456,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":9973.936,"end":9999.515,"text":"未來增加100套也是各一半嗎?移動跟固定是各一半嗎?這個我想即便是固定也可以定期做移動一個地方設置幾個月之後那那個陳情案件數有一些變化之後我們就換這個有時候我們一代表就請這個地方環保局就是說有些路段我們就覺得說民眾常常在反應可是他們就說啊那個不夠啊所以都沒辦法過去用啊"},{"start":9999.915,"end":10025.99,"text":"所以我是覺得說,能夠增加再增加,我覺得100套其實也是不夠啦所以我們的預算不夠還是怎麼樣?請李委員將來就是支持,因為...這我明天支持啦,我是說是不是你們自己編的預算不夠還是怎麼樣啦?這是一回事啦因為黨組沒有想到大家反應那麼正面啦都很正面啊那我是建議啦,如果預算夠的話啦因為現在還在編明年預算嘛,預算夠的話這個我們來增加啦好不好?"},{"start":10027.851,"end":10046.918,"text":"我最後一個再問按照你們的資料告發的量次110年到113年3月有3686件可是真正的裁罰的案件每年好像才500多件"},{"start":10050.15,"end":10057.293,"text":"這個110年110年我手中的資料才500多件欸那為什麼告發的有3000多件可是每年抓起來才500多件這個落差在哪裡啊這個我們來瞭解一下好不好就是說這個機動車輛的噪音110到111就每年都500多件啊那可是你們的資料就是說你們告發的這一個量次這個有3686件這還是移動式的還有包含固定式的7000"},{"start":10079.97,"end":10108.377,"text":"7000多件欸還有傳統軟件7000多件那個比例差蠻多的欸我們是不是可以請李文辦公室也把資料跟我們來勾結比對一下好啊好啊這裡面落差大了對啊對啊因為落差還蠻多的啊對我絕對難想像你們這個有就是比如說有告發但是後來真正裁罰的對啊比例差蠻多的啊這個是有落差必須把他弄好好不好你們去查一下那我們把你們資料給你們那你們再給我一個答案好不好"},{"start":10109.278,"end":10114.244,"text":"謝謝李君誠委員現在先做一下宣告在牛許廷委員質詢結束處理臨時提案現在請林德福委員發言謝謝主席是不是請薛部長"},{"start":10132.114,"end":10149.165,"text":"您好部長您好因為現行那個聲音照相科技執法遇到風速大的時候這個大於每秒5公尺為了避免爭議不予開罰那其實媒體報導部分縣市聲音照相科技執法告發率過低"},{"start":10151.035,"end":10177.574,"text":"反而以人力聯合稽查來攔檢來告發率則可以達到五成以上那為了瞭解聲音照相科技執法這個預算補助效益有關各縣市這個聲音照相科技執法告發成功率相較於這些環保局、警察局聯合人力稽查攔檢告發成功率那我是希望說"},{"start":10179,"end":10201.54,"text":"環境部應與相關單位提出書面資料給立委們做一個參考不找你的看法勒可以因為我們來找出原因因為這種聲音還是需要透過科技執法它比較有一個對啦那本席是認為抓草不抓改那"},{"start":10202.461,"end":10221.682,"text":"噪音車應該從源頭控管改裝車、炸街造成民怨之首民眾半夜被汽機車排氣管的噪音吵得不得安寧不管是聲音照相、科技指法或是人力的攔截、攔查"},{"start":10222.563,"end":10244.067,"text":"都要雙管齊下給民眾一個安寧的生活環境本期是希望環境部與警政署應用聲音照相科技執法時遇到噪音車未懸掛車牌或使用撬牌器或偽造車牌警政署要協助揪出這類惡意歸併稽查的車輛要給民眾"},{"start":10248.107,"end":10263.72,"text":"還給他們一個生活的安寧部長你的看法呢?我認同所以我們也朝著這個方向來做因為剛剛包括王委員也特別提到這個噪音已經是造成"},{"start":10264.881,"end":10267.903,"text":"警察幾乎都沒有在做嘛"},{"start":10296.022,"end":10319.011,"text":"因為你今天要是配給警察每個警察都有機會來做這些噪音排放這些不管汽車、機車他們才會怕今天因為你們環保署檢測的就是路邊偶爾我差不多大概幾個月看一次而已其實那個"},{"start":10320.936,"end":10350.262,"text":"可以說沒有什麼效果啦所以說到處才都是這樣子部長你的看法勒?林委員齁 這個建議很好齁我想我接下來會責成我們部裡的同仁啊同對啦應該要傳承啦也會鼓勵因為齁這個是很重要啊部長重視這個民怨啦民怨啦跟警察這個警政署以及跟交通部監理單位之間的一個合作啦齁部長我想"},{"start":10351.542,"end":10378.272,"text":"2050淨零排碳已是我國政府的目標以國內舉辦跨年活動為例全台合計的排碳量推估有高達3000噸以公股、航庫、臺灣銀行為例為落實環境永續減碳並於今年3月透過碳泉底換完成信用卡"},{"start":10379.565,"end":10385.369,"text":"我非常認同所以有所謂的綠色金融的這一塊給林委員報告像金管會他們的探錢交易所去年這個8月7號在高雄成立"},{"start":10398.539,"end":10425.727,"text":"去年的12月底我們也第一次把國外的探泉這個品質好的引進到國內那國內的金融機構很多銀行也都去探購我是希望說環境部能夠率先做示範給這些部會辦活動的時候依循他的範本未來希望各部會舉辦大型活動因草擬探綜合計畫以達成這個活動探綜合你的看法呢?"},{"start":10426.287,"end":10454.883,"text":"完全認同現在很多大公司他們辦活動也都朝碳中和的方向在走最後一個議題隨著2050淨零排碳政策推動未來可預期鋰電池廢氣量將大幅度的提升針對未來電動車和除電系統的鋰電池淘汰和它的循環二次的再利用環境部相關規範是不是有準備好"},{"start":10455.283,"end":10476.933,"text":"給林委員報告已經是李電池的回收已經是環境部支援這個循環署裡面很重要的因為李電池回收在利用提煉桂金屬如何避免在回收過程中產生二次的污染本期提醒環境部要落實稽查避免廠商造假好不好謝謝林委員的建議"},{"start":10481.016,"end":10498.754,"text":"謝謝林德福委員接下來請林淑芬委員發言主席各位大家午安是不是再繼續請我們薛部長請薛部長"},{"start":10503.164,"end":10504.765,"text":"新北市6天執法開罰1500件"},{"start":10522.853,"end":10538.78,"text":"六天就取締了1500件那當然我們知道這個設備大概就是它必須要測速還要有聲音還必須照相所以它是很複雜的一套機器那我們也知道新北市目前分配到這個36套"},{"start":10541.642,"end":10549.972,"text":"那我們蘆洲,像我的選區蘆洲其實有一套固定的固定設置在中山一路可是你知道我是受害者曾經我們蘆洲不曉得是那個超跑的愛用者還是什麼他很準時半夜12點以後才開出門"},{"start":10556.781,"end":10585.182,"text":"因為這個好像好的車沒有跑開出去飆一下不太像超跑所以在半夜12點以後才會開出去飆那我知道它不是我家樓下那一條路它是還有一段距離的大條的四線道的馬路但是你們都聽得到我們大家所有不是我們的社區不是我們的結果整條馬路半個蘆洲都知道半夜12點以後有人開超跑在飆車"},{"start":10586.924,"end":10597.528,"text":"其實在那裡你說臨時發現了然後你沒有設定鼓動的你用移動的這個聲音照相設備來你移動了來已經照了這個永遠第一個不是換不均而也換寡那你全部這麼多年來你花投資30億元你要講說對於噪音對人體身體健康的影響很大可是30億元這麼多年投資只有30億元"},{"start":10614.975,"end":10624.22,"text":"其實是遠遠不足的,老實說。真的造成我們很大的困擾。我們就是受害者。所以其實從量來講,從法制面你對噪音的規範、夜間白天的規範不一。這個當然要有落差。國際上不能說天空、晚上、夜深、人靜。你30分貝跟白天的30分貝差很多。"},{"start":10640.487,"end":10643.349,"text":"法制面也要檢討．執行面也要檢討．設備．有法沒好．你沒測速、測音．還有照相設備沒好．公寓、善集室必先利其器．這個我想部長你剛才有回應了．但我今天不是要談．主要不談這個．我談空汙"},{"start":10661.437,"end":10672.823,"text":"就是說深坑啊深坑那個大火就是7000顆的鋰電池的這個倉庫在台北市區在鮮美市區其實造成很大的影響"},{"start":10674.602,"end":10701.382,"text":"那後來呢我們盧州五谷的隔壁叫林口林口南亞的塑膠廠也燒了兩三天那後來又淡水的泡棉廠後來又有樹林的木材廠泡棉跟塑膠廠這個風險危害對我們來講我們直覺的反應就是相當應該是有一定程度可是我今天來講從深坑這個案例因為它比較受到非常高大的影響的層面很廣"},{"start":10702.823,"end":10707.484,"text":"然後關注度很高的狀況我先來討論就是他當時7000顆鋁電池這樣子堆製然後燒的時候你們木柵空瓶的策戰的資料顯示到了隔一天你們的數據是PM2.5相較於其他策戰明顯升高"},{"start":10725.248,"end":10740.758,"text":"但是當時雙北的環保局都表示空氣品質仍在普通範圍內有升高但品質仍在普通範圍內這樣的結果跟我們民眾普遍的感受是很大的落差"},{"start":10742.939,"end":10770.06,"text":"那我今天在講我要講的是法治面的問題還有執行面也有法治面的問題就是說2018年我們對這個空污防治法裡面我們2018年的修法放了一個很重要的概念就是說環境知情權要放到空污防治裡面因為這個空污防治第33條我們當時就放了第一項公司場所的固定污染源"},{"start":10770.7,"end":10782.69,"text":"因突發事故大量排放空污石負責人應採取緊急應變措施而且還有限時時間最慢一個小時內要通知直轄市或縣市主管機關第二這些狀況主管機關、縣市政府、直轄市政府他要"},{"start":10791.718,"end":10817.605,"text":"令公司場所採取必要的措施或得令其停止該固定污染源的操作以外還要發布空氣品質惡化的警告還要採取因應措施那其實我們在講當初修法是說我已經授權給你們也授權給地方政府了有發生這種事情要趕快發布空氣品質惡化警告及採取因應措施"},{"start":10819.125,"end":10822.928,"text":"但是呢我們33條裏面的第4項還講說這裏面的惡化的警告發布通知方式和因應措施還有這個突發事故的緊急應變計畫應記載的內容執行辦法"},{"start":10836.136,"end":10848.79,"text":"還是要給中央主管機關去訂那你們當然就訂出來了你們訂出了一個叫突發事故的緊急應變措施計畫及警告通知的作業辦法這是你們的執法"},{"start":10850.014,"end":10866.261,"text":"可惜你們的執法裡面講到說啊經中央主管機關指定應公告設置空污防治的專責單位或人員的公司場所你們限縮了你們把這一些公司場所"},{"start":10866.801,"end":10873.128,"text":"先說在你們所指定公告的這一些不管是行業或是製程或是物質裡面你們才需要設置這個防治單位"},{"start":10881.758,"end":10898.148,"text":"他們的固定污染源的操作許可證要登載的製程除草產品種類那你們要求說使用付表所列的空污突發事故的管制物質或者是應擬定的空污突發事故緊急應變措施計畫"},{"start":10899.148,"end":10899.308,"text":"但是限縮在於﹐"},{"start":10918.132,"end":10926.361,"text":"公告你們的這個指定的這個公告的列別裡面製程啦或是產業或是我剛剛講的物質限縮了那我為什麼講這個你看"},{"start":10931.041,"end":10950.774,"text":"你們應公告的應設置空污專責單位或專責人員及健康風險評估人員的公告條件在那裡但是呢以深坑7000顆鋰電池影響這麼大、空氣品質這麼糟的狀況裡面它是不是你們公告應該要設置的這個"},{"start":10953.717,"end":10960.491,"text":"的範圍,然後是在你們的緊急應變措施計畫應提出還有警告通知作業應有的這個廠商裡面,他們是不是?"},{"start":10964.419,"end":10973.703,"text":"給林委員報告,事實上他不是,因為根根那個案子,他事實上是一個產品倉庫啊我知道,倉庫啊所以他根本就沒有在你們管制的範圍內而我們《空污防治法》的第33條並沒有限縮限縮在你們所管制的製程啦你們所管制的行業別裡面,我們沒有我們是講說,我們的母法裡面是講說要有環境知情權"},{"start":10994.132,"end":11022.926,"text":"不管哪一種污染源突發事故大量排放空污時就負責人要採取緊急應變措施最慢一個小時要通報給主管機關地方主管機關然後公司主管機場所業者也必須要停止該固定污染源的操作而且要發布惡化警報這樣子我們母法是長這樣子而你執法你的是辦法限縮了"},{"start":11025.526,"end":11046.383,"text":"因為我們來檢討齁你們先說了但是像撐坑這個你們也不是沒有也不是沒有辦法但你們有一個辦法叫空污突發事故的通報案及應變的標準作業流程的SOP但這個SOP只是一個內規也沒有法律明文規定也不是辦法"},{"start":11047.535,"end":11065.082,"text":"是吧給林委員報告事實上深耕這個案子發生之後你看後續的幾個案子情況處理的就就是說地方政府的環保局馬上就會這個跟民眾反應深耕這個事實上的確造成很大謎言深耕這個案子我們非常不能接受你知道原因在哪裡嗎"},{"start":11066.363,"end":11079.794,"text":"他這個大火煙霧臭味瀰漫大半個雙北但是新北市市長第一時間出來說沒有測到戴奧辛那我問你戴奧辛要幾天才檢查的出來"},{"start":11082.637,"end":11084.358,"text":"為什麼雙北兩市的環保局人員他們在用手持式的測試器在火場周圍還有下方處做檢驗"},{"start":11100.606,"end":11102.808,"text":"現場的風速只有2.3m一秒還有這個電子鼻的毒質是零多功能的氣體偵測儀他們說偵測起來都是零檢測的項目只有什麼你知道嗎那個部長"},{"start":11118.84,"end":11131.966,"text":"只有液氧化碳、硫化氫、有機氣體他手持式的偵測器他說數值都是零因為他偵測的目標是液氧化碳、硫化氫、有機氣體當然是沒有測到啊"},{"start":11135.694,"end":11153.778,"text":"但是深耕大火燒掉的是電話、耳機最多的是鋰電池而這裡面有很多的聚氯銀烯、PVC或者是銅可能產生代奧辛氮氟化氫而他們用手持式的在案發現場測這個是這樣的方法是對的嗎?"},{"start":11158.334,"end":11180.449,"text":"事實上是太過武斷去用手持式的就是說確定說沒有帶耗芯這個是他那一台手持式的就沒有帶耗芯檢測的項目啊帶耗芯必須在實驗室進行化驗沒有辦法用這一台機器就馬上檢測所以第一時間市長告訴我們說現場沒有帶耗芯是根本連測都沒測"},{"start":11181.977,"end":11195.638,"text":"然後就隨便說說那我要講的是我是要講制度面當然就是複合性的火災災害你們應該定出監測的方法到底怎麼樣的採樣才是有代表性的要規範吧"},{"start":11197.933,"end":11226.012,"text":"是你是要再靠近火場的擴散煙流的原始濃度呢?今天首次試走火場變壓測呢?還是應在火場下風處、上風處不同的距離、數值的差異、污染物的濃度還要包含粒狀物、酸性氣體、帶奧辛重金屬、非化性有機物等要進行定性的分析還有各種物質的濃度的監測然後去模式模擬各種影響的可能範圍而且"},{"start":11227.993,"end":11246.276,"text":"最重要是你們這個都只是靠近地面或是輕微影響的地方策根本不具代表性他可能還必須這個高空的濃度所以我們其實有時候講說你的高空濃度你的策戰你要怎麼設你這些東西你策戰的內容又是什麼"},{"start":11247.665,"end":11267.716,"text":"所以讓民眾安心的不是一句符合標準就可以了所以難怪台北市市長也在生氣那我們講說存在環境當中它的污染物質是什麼濃度多少你要真實揭露環境的資訊而且要把這個資訊完整的傳遞給我們受影響區域內的民眾當污染持續擴散或擴大影響的時候我們要民眾要採取防護措施啊"},{"start":11275.1,"end":11292.791,"text":"那減少民眾在不知情的狀況下受到傷害啊 這個才是環境治理最重要的危害預警的責任而我今天要告訴你以深坑的大火為例 你知道嗎 在它附近300公尺就有3000安養中心和護理之家"},{"start":11293.852,"end":11305.388,"text":"然後這一群體質敏感脆弱的老人家你們有啟動了這個不要忘記喔 這個裡面你們的SOB裡面還有一個叫做危害評估"},{"start":11308.427,"end":11328.246,"text":"你們的危害評估的沒有任何的規範到底什麼時候要做出幾個小時要規範要做出危害評估的規範然後讓老人家或者是學校的學生然後都是靠我是深坑人啊我是台北人啊我是哪裡人啊靠社群軟體的壓力來讓你們施政然後來採取應變措施的這太離譜了"},{"start":11334.452,"end":11340.838,"text":"因為時間的關係等下到牛許廷委員質詢完要處理可是我這個制度面的事情要不要講完因為他真的太離譜了我們的重大空污的定義跟量化指標部長你要好好的檢討"},{"start":11349.787,"end":11370.077,"text":"第一線環保局的人員根本沒有辦法明確的判斷是不是已經達到空污突發事故通報緊急應變時的這個時機而你的危害評估淪於紙上作業而且沒有具體的應見型的步驟行政程序也沒有時間規範所以難以達到這個緊急應變的功效"},{"start":11375.459,"end":11395.949,"text":"所以有可能說你這個危害評估事實上是輪雨直上作業啦是不是請部長會後再跟林委員這邊補充說明對不對你們的在你們的空污突發事故通報緊急影片措施這一些以深耕蕩火來為例啊臺北新北市有沒有通報"},{"start":11397.21,"end":11419.303,"text":"有沒有通報?實際上這個中央跟地方是一起合作的因為它不是你們公告應設置緊急應變措施計畫還有緊急通知作業辦法內規定的產業但是呢當他們民眾檢舉事情發生以後地方政府也應該要通報而且要通報到中央來 這個事情有沒有通報?沒有"},{"start":11422.265,"end":11436.197,"text":"昨天早上有嗎?我看新聞報導好像好多天以後還說沒有通報連通報都沒有緊急應變措施是業者的責任但危害評估是地方政府的責任危害評估沒有具體的規範沒有時程的規範"},{"start":11438.999,"end":11465.813,"text":"在論語組上作業,保定還有很多要檢討的可是制度面、法制面要檢討啦但是只能留給下一任的部長了吧我看還是你在這一個月內可以具體的、霹靂手段馬上檢討,可以嗎這個是成科已久的問題的話沒有空裝級這一個月馬上要求我們來努力看看啦可以嗎"},{"start":11467.159,"end":11467.719,"text":"主席謝謝,麻煩請薛部長"},{"start":11491.823,"end":11518.313,"text":"學部長本期要先確認一下就是說今天本期之前一直有強調就是說改裝車問題噪音困擾民眾很久但我們要應該抓的是抓草不抓桿就是說真真正正如果說這個是合格的排氣管你可以讓他做源頭管理那如果不合格的你連他進來或說上市都不要上市那這樣子民眾在市面上找不到說"},{"start":11519.943,"end":11539.756,"text":"不合格的排氣管他就不會去裝那不會去裝就不會有這噪音鈔票的問題嘛所以本市也看到說你今天的報告裡面有源頭管理並且講說本部已經合格了225組的排氣管供車主選用225組裡面有多少組是汽車有多少組是汽車"},{"start":11540.899,"end":11542.88,"text":"現在也有討論到是說未來也要做這個排氣管的認證是不是"},{"start":11565.822,"end":11575.845,"text":"現在已經有在認證了我們現在認證已經根據今天的報告比例現在認證了多少1957件已經完成認證那持續在進行當中1957件已經在認證當中那現在改裝車主向環保局登錄的車輛是一萬四千多件一萬五千件左右所以什麼時候他會認證完畢就你們現在的量能來講"},{"start":11594.022,"end":11611.321,"text":"大概8月份左右8月份可以?對你們現在是委由地方政府環保局去做各地的認證?是是是所以認證完之後好認證這是重要的就代表是說本席之前記者強調的是叫源頭管理是不要說讓大家覺得說你抓"},{"start":11612.56,"end":11634.305,"text":"看到改裝車就覺得是說他們是這個過街老鼠其實重點還在於是說你有辦法去做噪音我們就要強烈取締噪音問題才是最重要的嘛對不對認同認同那所以現在除了這個源頭管理以外那更重要的是這所謂的科技執法因為我們地方政府環保局的人員其實人力上還是不足啊"},{"start":11634.665,"end":11656.712,"text":"而且你很難說要配合是這個街頭的這個取締或說街頭的一個檢視所以說科技執法相對重要但是你在第10頁的一個報告科技執法說114年增加306套完全沒有進步為什麼這樣講這是去年10月的數字"},{"start":11658.601,"end":11664.849,"text":"去年10月環境部在做專案報告的時候你就是講2025年306套"},{"start":11668.558,"end":11689.777,"text":"那半年過去了在去年10月的時候每一個委員我記得至少本席已經我們好幾位委員也都在提說其實如果說科技執法真的能夠來讓有些都會地區可以來增加這樣的一個執法量能的話應該要考慮多加的一個增加但半年過去了到今天你還是拿114年306套來我說實在話這不要講唐瑟阿"},{"start":11694.68,"end":11714.326,"text":"給紅衛報告這半年沒有任何的進步沒有增加你自己去看即便是新北市人口數最多36我們新北市幾個行政區29個行政區平均一個行政區一套講多了比較不順眼一個行政區一套您看得出問題了嗎紅衛"},{"start":11721.281,"end":11750.841,"text":"報告一下就是說你剛剛講是112到116本來是計劃本來就規劃306套所以它執行期限是到116等於2027年是你現在提早一年變2025年306套這個是去年10月跟我們報告的數字這是規劃的啊就是說實際上採購當然因為我們這個經費是補助給地方政府那地方政府會有配合款一起去採購那這一塊我想我們目前"},{"start":11751.121,"end":11752.862,"text":"我記得那時候我有詢問過,差不多80萬左右"},{"start":11773.879,"end":11791.406,"text":"看固定市或是移動市80到100萬對不對那你現在關我的新北市36套行政區平均一個一套就是板橋區一個綜合區一個那更不用講其他桃園我們有桃園的委員27套台北市23套"},{"start":11793.496,"end":11793.716,"text":"噪音"},{"start":11822.15,"end":11842.827,"text":"我再次強調啊如果你沒有違規你沒有在夜深人靜的時候那請我跟我們剛剛委員有講本席的泰山本席的林口本席的淡水還有很多的新市鎮半夜在那邊咻開過去今天別人不知道你開好車還是今天別人不知道你有改裝車"},{"start":11844.637,"end":11871.39,"text":"還是強調不是說你開好車就應該被罰不是你改裝車就被罰而是你有沒有製造噪音如果說有製造噪音抱歉尤其是在夜間人靜老人清夢的時候我們當然沒有辦法接受啊那與其要我們環保人員在那邊去設一個路口然後在那邊去疲於奔命然後半夜來執勤你的噪音的照相其實就有必要現在全台灣到2025年只有306套"},{"start":11874.943,"end":11880.79,"text":"真的太少部長你也你也要離開啊你是要跟鄉親出是陳建仁陳建仁最好是各位看有誰騎快一點再拿出來用所以部長"},{"start":11891.423,"end":11920.715,"text":"部長過去這段時間真的我還是肯定你有一些專業或說你也願意要一些地方要來去做調整所以說源頭管理的部分剛剛其實我看到報告我是給你機會讓你說明讓你來講出來確實有在做這個源頭管理但是噪音偵測的部分各縣市政府尤其環保局相關的人士都跟我們反映應該要增加半年過去沒有增加我覺得這是不合格的"},{"start":11922.512,"end":11922.752,"text":"為什麼嘆氣?說實在話啦!"},{"start":11933.331,"end":11954.722,"text":"過去這半年沒有努力 然後現在跟我講努力 我的即視感只有覺得是說環境我就要離開啊 不是 這個跟那個完全沒有關係 黃委員你講 去年10月份看到的306套 就是去年10月份的報告跟一模一樣 我下一個委員已經要上台了 我不要拖下面的時間 但是我現在講的是 部長"},{"start":11955.902,"end":11977.982,"text":"交代你下面這個是哪一個司要做的政務官可能會離開但是你的部門、部會不會離開嗎請洪委員不要誤會我覺得這個部分應該要在這個月裡面來去盤點我們還有多少資源以及增加到2024年、2025年、306還可以增加幾套請具體的給本席書面資料,可以嗎?好謝謝洪委員"},{"start":11981.425,"end":11981.885,"text":"主席、國務委員、警部長還有我們的事務官"},{"start":12005.852,"end":12013.432,"text":"這個噪音管制法噪音管制法是環境部是主管機關嗎?是好這個我還"},{"start":12015.23,"end":12044.309,"text":"我基本上過去我都在質詢國防部啦但是沒有結果我們先看這個自航機場自航機場本來是我們原住民族的部落在這個自航機場裡面因為要開闢這個自航機場所以把我們的部落分成三塊一個是富岡部落、嘉陸蘭部落然後十三部落都在這個現在的自航機場的旁邊"},{"start":12045.55,"end":12074.816,"text":"我們的自航機那個鄉親每天要承受這個噪音軍的軍方的噪音的一個侵害自航機場但是我們要從民國89年雖然有這個補助但是呢噪音補助要等30年才會輪到這個部落是這樣一個情況雖然我經過如果我們看這個噪音補助當然都是做什麼呢"},{"start":12075.936,"end":12076.196,"text":"環境部是"},{"start":12099.827,"end":12123.953,"text":"噪音管制法的主管機關所以我要特別請環境部尤其是我們的事務官要去協調國防部為了噪音管制法我也曾經提出了修正的條文也做了修正應該要採取適當之防治及補償措施"},{"start":12126.59,"end":12136.427,"text":"像這個噪音管制法第17條97年12月3日的時候公布的只有防制措施事實上難以防制"},{"start":12137.786,"end":12163.222,"text":"難以防制。對不對?部長,軍方的飛機空軍難以防制所以要訂補償措施所以就加了一個補償措施但是從110年1月20日公布施行到現在還是因為沒有錢,錢不夠所以應該怎麼去解決這個問題然後呢"},{"start":12166.462,"end":12194.401,"text":"法律修了但是地方主管機關認為還是用防治措施問題是沒有辦法防治然後補助經費不夠還是要輪還是要輪所以這個部分應該怎麼去解決我的具體的建議這個環境部要去協調國防部還有地方主管機關就是縣市政府應該要怎麼樣呢"},{"start":12195.731,"end":12212.614,"text":"你這個補助最起碼要受到補償嗎?所以要補償。所以這個補償的部分應該優先優先就距離這個距離這個自航機場最近的"},{"start":12214.454,"end":12241.145,"text":"最近的這部分其實這個很遠的其實不需要它真的很遠所以這個第一個要去檢討這個是合理的這第一個第二個就是說你每年都應該要補償而不是說要很多年之後才要補償所以這個部分是要請這個環境部要去協調地方政府因為這個部分確實是一個"},{"start":12243.541,"end":12246.934,"text":"本來已經是我自己的部落我已經讓你當自航機場了"},{"start":12249.017,"end":12276.425,"text":"結果我還要每天要做這個噪音卻又沒有辦法做補償可以嗎可以我們來跟國防部討論一下補償措施的部分請業務單位齊集的去協調然後要請業務單位提供一個月內提供什麼資料就是說我們有很多的機場所有的機場"},{"start":12278.513,"end":12296.349,"text":"不管是軍用的、軍用跟民航一起共用的或是單獨民航的這些相關的這些補償或是補助的一個情形可以嗎提供這樣的一個書面資料"},{"start":12298.342,"end":12299.143,"text":"接下來請牛許廷委員發言"},{"start":12330.629,"end":12335.052,"text":"謝謝主席,這個環境部、交通部、經濟部、內政部一起來好了請部長好,牛文好部長午安啊,這個既然要談這個噪音管制、制度性的層面來講我們乾脆就一次處理了,所以叫這麼多人來一起討論,因為跟大家其實都有關係啊好,大家交換意見這個根據環境部的統計,民眾陳情的噪音車輛檢舉案件數量大概多少件?"},{"start":12359.537,"end":12360.178,"text":"為什麼會發生這樣的事?"},{"start":12376.37,"end":12396.211,"text":"這裡面可能人為的這個對而且很多噪音齁譬如說你機車呼嘯而過不好抓嘛對不對所以我們今天要針對這個問題來做討論然後本期有三個題目齁第一個叫做源頭主卻啦源頭主卻的問題跟經濟部有關齁你們可以一起回答齁"},{"start":12396.872,"end":12397.593,"text":"現在是一個緩衝期今年是緩衝期"},{"start":12420.669,"end":12430.013,"text":"你現在有多少把握業者會100%配合這件事?還是說表面上配合你私底下還是賣不合格的管制?因為目前登記到目前為止將近15000"},{"start":12433.633,"end":12439.277,"text":"為這個機車的車主已經來登記了一萬五千個那持續還在進行當中"},{"start":12462.952,"end":12463.172,"text":"那當然嘛"},{"start":12487.266,"end":12508.639,"text":"業者一定會反彈但是公權力該做的時候就要做那把話講清楚規則定清楚我現在就要問經濟部經濟部你回答你現在講業者都有都願意配合那未來你如果做稽查你發現這家業者名義上講說我都會提供合法的排氣管可是我去稽查的時候發現他根本沒有在做這件事他掛羊頭賣狗肉還是繼續做非法的改管的行為的時候你有沒有處罰的方案"},{"start":12510.834,"end":12533.277,"text":"跟委員報告我們一般都會會同那個環境部一起去稽查所以這個時候我們發現的時候我們會把相關資料請環境部馬上依照他的法規就著以處理現在的法規現在處罰機制是什麼所以一個聯合稽查動作剛剛劉委員的問題是什麼樣我說你現在是有聯合稽查機制嗎可是你抓到業者如果還是非法提供相關的這個排氣管的時候有沒有針對業者的處罰機制"},{"start":12535.259,"end":12561.627,"text":"有啊應該沒有但是對業者應該會是經濟部在負責吧還是你看所以這就是我今天要把你們一起叫上來的原因嘛對不對環境部只針對有沒有環境部認可的這個排氣管以及他排的噪音是不是超過標準環境部好你看這就是漏洞對不對所以你們要開會討論嘛要不然你的源頭管理永遠都是永遠都沒有處理嘛對不對這個"},{"start":12563.227,"end":12573.535,"text":"剛剛都在講討論說這一個月對不對能不能雷厲風行我是希望可以啦因為這種事情其實不分藍綠不分朝野也不分誰做環境部長誰做經濟部長這全民共識這應該把它徹底殲滅所以就趕快開始做研討不要拖了好不好針對業者的客責啊"},{"start":12581.661,"end":12601.787,"text":"有課則機制才有辦法源頭阻卻這第一個問題第二個問題就是執法的效率我要談的是科技執法但其實剛剛很多委員都有問過我們今天不花太多時間在這個地方這個未來有沒有打算擴大相關的這個預算因為剛剛大家都講一套一套行動資格太少來內政部警政署來講一下"},{"start":12605.808,"end":12631.118,"text":"這個使用之後有沒有對於這個節省警察的工作量能啊有沒有幫助使用科技執法的話這個科技執法設備是有我們噪音的對啊噪音科技執法我跟你講是沒有科技執法設備的情況下要怎麼抓噪音你是不是交通警察是不是要跟人去執法對不對叫做環境聯合稽查對不對"},{"start":12632.919,"end":12647.407,"text":"第一個是在配合聯合稽查第二個我們在勤務當中不管入檢、臨檢發現有這樣的...都會處理對不對?如果多一些科技執法的設備你是不是少一點警察出行的機會?是嘛,對,我還要聽你這句話所以環境部"},{"start":12648.147,"end":12665.335,"text":"內政部想辦法也許警政也提供一些預算資源也是可以的啊因為這件事情有助於減少基層警力的壓力啦所以不管你們要從哪裡找錢出來就是要做嘛去加大這個科技執法這個設備的預算編列啦部長這第二個第三個交通部來"},{"start":12666.636,"end":12689.313,"text":"你要靈活運用法規啊最近大家在吵得沸沸揚揚的叫做祭典制度對不對職業價值都崩潰了對不對這當然要檢討要做調整該祭典的沒祭典不祭典的去祭典你當然被罵嘛交通部噪音改管車輛人人得而誅之啊這沒有什麼好客氣的這種有沒有祭典現在他被倆包抄標很吵有沒有祭典"},{"start":12689.733,"end":12709.771,"text":"跟委員報告一下,這個噪音管制超過標準的部分是按照這個噪音管制﹖是罰錢嘛﹖是按照他的法來做規定那如果說是屬於這個消音器不全﹖有影響行車安全的話那個是在這個處罰條例裡面有這個規定那噪音管制﹖因為兩個適用的法源是有不一樣啊"},{"start":12710.171,"end":12727.018,"text":"我跟你講你們在那邊研討很多人在那邊研討說我們要沒入車輛這當然是最有效的裁罰機制可是你如果沒有一個你不能一下標準定那麼高然後都做不到一直研討中這樣是有問題的嘛最務實而且可以思考的方式就是祭典嘛你被人家抓包晚上你喜歡出去飆車就祭典啦"},{"start":12727.598,"end":12745.854,"text":"多記幾點,什麼就可以扣牌了?各位,各位報告一下,如果是飆車的話,那個一定記,而且這個掉過駕照噪音啦,我現在講的是噪音啦,飆車族的噪音對不對?是不是一樣來做個研討啦?這個把它納入記點,這個記點不會有民怨嘛反而大家拍拍手覺得政府有魄力對不對?"},{"start":12747.255,"end":12769.87,"text":"所以本期做小結論這三個部分第一個針對源頭主缺的部分要對業者課與責任第二這個加強執法效率增加科技執法量能第三靈活運用祭典制度徹底殲滅這個噪音的公害好不好這個不要等什麼換不換屆趕快做啦我希望趕快看到成果可以嗎"},{"start":12770.387,"end":12771.968,"text":"先謝謝張偉豪跟各位委員謝謝那我們是不是先請薛部長"},{"start":12796.528,"end":12809.963,"text":"部長好,其實我聽了一個早上很多委員都有提到這個噪音是公害而且是大家很痛餓的那其實在各縣市我知道都有相關的專案執法執法的專案比如說桃園有桃園的台中我記得有一個進城專案"},{"start":12815.248,"end":12839.173,"text":"但是大家都認為專案式的執法效力不髒為什麼因為專案式的執法都是在特定的時間那特定的區域那所以才會有今天部長您來報告我們要從源頭管理到後來我們的這個改管要登錄那如果沒有登錄要開法我們要做全套的一個管制對不對部長是"},{"start":12840.353,"end":12859.364,"text":"是,那你認為如果我們全套的管制之後呢那地方的進程專案或者是桃園的這個淨桃專案你覺得像這樣專案的執行效果會不會加倍當然會這個產生一些效果但是還沒有把它達到我要聽的是但是"},{"start":12860.694,"end":12890.303,"text":"還沒有辦法達到理想的狀況原因是用人工跟跨部會的聯合稽查這種畢竟是它有實踐性剛剛是嗎部長那我現在就要講說那如果要系統性的來徹底解決噪音這樣子一個問題的情況之下那我們有沒有系統性的策略而不是只有中央地方的聯合稽查在特定的區域特定的地點特定的時間所以我們接下來就是科技的"},{"start":12891.163,"end":12906.057,"text":"可是科技的執法也是固定點啊那你的移動點你的移動點如何移動那當然一定是由你們的一個策略嘛對不對是所以除了增加這個設備之外那我們的策略跨部會是怎麼樣的來"},{"start":12907.54,"end":12907.56,"text":"大衛﹗"},{"start":12936.628,"end":12960.571,"text":"未來的執行面當然就是環境部我們現在擔心的是執行啊我們現在擔心的是執行面啦就是說執行面啦議員嘛跨部會都協調不好的話就更不要苛責地方政府來跟中央配合啊對那執行面的話當然就是說環境部我們針對噪音那我想交通部或者這個警政署的這一塊可是現在聽起來你們各自為政啊"},{"start":12961.091,"end":12986.253,"text":"對,所以這一塊我希望能夠有個平台所以你說跟未來的彭部長你要無縫接軌那這整套的這個管理系統那怎麼樣無縫接軌那其他部會換了新的首長怎麼樣無縫接軌我覺得這個事才是民眾所關心的事實上環境部也有成功的案例比如說我們在抓不管是空污、水污跟土壤的污染我們有一個檢警環的"},{"start":12987.794,"end":12990.518,"text":"我只希望既然我們有心要做要管理那應該要把它想清楚如何能夠不要只是專案式的一個稽查方式"},{"start":13006.458,"end":13027.189,"text":"有系統性的能夠去防範這些噪音公害的產生嘛我只問你一個嘛比如說剛剛有其他委員有講到嘛現在我們要源頭管制那改管要登錄那你給我的報告說從1月1號執行到4月15號總共來申請登錄的有14971件那部長你承不承認會不會有黑數"},{"start":13033.109,"end":13044.208,"text":"這個黑數當然是難免的一定有黑數嘛一定有黑數嘛那黑數你怎麼去稽查得知呢只能靠事後的剛剛講的專案稽查嗎"},{"start":13046.904,"end":13072.656,"text":"我想這個從源頭嘛就是看看這些機車行啊或者說這個換售所以我就點出這一點嘛你的源頭管理你是被動的等人家來登錄啊那沒有來登錄的黑數你又要做核管理這個才是問題嘛我跟你說合法的啊我們都可以查得到啦那沒合法的啊因為就沒定期來你就查不到啦"},{"start":13073.516,"end":13098.479,"text":"不是嗎?那我們現在最需要去查的是什麼?那些非法的黑數啊那才是造成公害的最主要之原因嘛對馬部長那怎麼辦?那所以這一塊我們未來就加強這一塊特別是不要再用自驗的啦我想應該...你怎麼加強啊?我現在要聽的是你打算怎麼加強我們張市長來回答好了這個...誰可以來回答?"},{"start":13100.137,"end":13118.204,"text":"我想最主要還是後端的那個稽查包括那個聲音照相還有那個聯合稽查這個都要一起搭配上後端的稽查那從源頭管理到後端的稽查這中間沒有其他可以有積極的行政作為嗎因為就是我們那個改裝的場所可能我們要做一些"},{"start":13120.345,"end":13131.728,"text":"去看看到底改了什麼東西對嘛,所以我說跨部會嘛第一個改裝的場所嘛再來改裝的場所如果是沒有登記的咧欸我們現在也看到很多個人工作室在改裝欸啊這個查得到嗎也查不到啊這也就是所謂的黑數嘛對不對是不是那這又該哪一個部會管經濟部還是交通部是不是經濟部"},{"start":13151.749,"end":13163.625,"text":"對嘛,所以你們跨部我現在講的不只是機車行喔現在已經有新興的行業叫做個人工作室喔那個人工作室是誰管?"},{"start":13164.912,"end":13180.951,"text":"我現在是點出實務面的問題啊我們在基層都知道有這個所謂的產業鏈的狀況那你們在這個公務單位、行政單位裡面如果不了解實務面的狀況你怎麼去把這一套的一個"},{"start":13181.992,"end":13182.392,"text":"謝謝何委員"},{"start":13210.226,"end":13237.917,"text":"現在處理臨時提案總共有6案請一併宣讀臨時提案第1案查在當前利用網路連線制各類紙容器所印製之官方溯源QR code卻皆僅建擔保之本紙參據來自向環境部資源循環署登記列管的業者內容而有欠相關詳實之產製資訊更衍生不效非法產製業者可憑倒置QR碼在未裝成合法容器之政策一律"},{"start":13238.777,"end":13255.535,"text":"原此特決議要求環境部最速啟動措施改善作業並於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝、蘇清泉、廖偉祥第二案一般民眾難以全面了解管制噪音法規"},{"start":13256.135,"end":13271.087,"text":"地方政府若以稽查違規車輛之名﹐行侵害民眾權益之時﹐如此反而使政府失去威信﹐遭受民眾質疑﹐導致政策無法完整被推行﹐原因要求環境部就地方政府噪音管制作為﹐進行了解與檢討相關作為﹐並於一個月內將"},{"start":13276.091,"end":13294.182,"text":"檢討報告送立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案人委員黃修芳、王振旭、林月琴第三案車輛製造廠、車輛代理商或車輛修理業均為經濟部所轄未將噪音源頭規範應給予妥適管理,原此要求環境部、交通部"},{"start":13294.662,"end":13316.66,"text":"警政署、經濟部於一個月內就推動改裝排氣管認證制度邀請相關機關及地方政府共同研討並宣達相關措施以達廣真民眾及企業反應之效並工作政策調適提案人委員黃秀芳、王振旭、林月琴第4案為督促行政部門落實減少溫室氣體排放之政策"},{"start":13319.142,"end":13334.779,"text":"接軌國際目標．原要求環境部檢討機車太舊換新補助之缺失．具體說明政策修正方向及改善方案．並於一個月內提出書面報告與立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案人委員王育敏．連署人委員盧憲一、蘇清泉．"},{"start":13339.484,"end":13354.889,"text":"第5案環境噪音除了會損害聽力還會導致憂鬱焦慮睡眠障礙注意力下降提高內分泌系統及心血管疾病的發生率甚至因聽覺刺激降低而增加罹患失智症的風險委員要求環境部於半年內針對環境噪音對人們生活之影響"},{"start":13360.15,"end":13374.248,"text":"與衛生福利部進行相關研究、制定相關場域或空間、噪音防治準則與規範．並將書面報告送立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案人委員蘇清泉、王育敏、盧憲一。第6案"},{"start":13375.289,"end":13394.941,"text":"區域醫院及醫學中心更是醫療中重度責任中心必須負擔及重難的照護責任衛生福利部及經濟部提供地區醫院補貼更應考量區域醫院及醫學中心肩負社會責任的特殊性原要求全國醫院比照現行地區醫院給予電價補貼"},{"start":13397.242,"end":13414.732,"text":"提案人委員蘇清泉、陳金輝、盧憲一宣讀完畢好在這邊做一下宣告等一下如果有文字修正請將文字修正版送主席台確定好那我們先從第6案開始那行政單位有沒有意見沒有第6案喔第6案喔第6案"},{"start":13432.998,"end":13433.679,"text":"會不會是經濟部的?"},{"start":13443.072,"end":13443.092,"text":"經濟部"},{"start":13466.25,"end":13492.275,"text":"經濟部說明因為當時就是地區運營的部分主要是那地區運營會議非核心地區當時跟衛福部商量的時候是非核心地區而且它經營比較困難那如果要把扣給全國的話可能要進一步研議那因為研議店這個補貼的話還是由這個衛福部來處理會比較妥適因為後續要編入那個目的是為了主管機關的預算是 那王委員"},{"start":13496.427,"end":13519.674,"text":"那這個就加一個這樣演繹好不好就經濟部你們這邊是是就是把要求改為演繹是好謝謝是"},{"start":13521.564,"end":13522.145,"text":"禮拜三的時候在"},{"start":13539.761,"end":13540.421,"text":"行政單位有沒有意見?"},{"start":13569.288,"end":13594.257,"text":"謝謝主席,那委員循環署報告,那這一案要防堵紫餐區那個QR Code的這個改善措施我們也馬上來進行,那因為加速跟資料都眾多那有涉及到這個系統的修改等等那最後一行是不是容許我們一個月向本委員會提交書面報告可以修正成兩個月?可以,可以"},{"start":13595.217,"end":13620.854,"text":"好,那就照文字修正通過好,第二案報告第二案沒有問題,遵辦照辦,可以那第三案沒有問題好,第四案第四案沒有問題也沒有問題,好,那就這個照案通過那第五案"},{"start":13621.867,"end":13622.908,"text":"提案委員有沒有意見?"},{"start":13652.096,"end":13663.242,"text":"可以,可以好,那就照文字修正通過那臨時提案全部處理完畢接下來請劉建國委員發言好,謝主席有請部長請薛部長還有請入署李副署長請李副署長"},{"start":13683.737,"end":13698.655,"text":"部長好,部長辛苦。我在這個上個屆,就第10屆的時候,也第7會期,這個上半年的時候,有興趣擔任社會法制的召委,那時候就排了環境部的組織法。"},{"start":13699.736,"end":13720.536,"text":"那也很感謝當時的衛環跟司法法制的委員大家都非常支持迅速讓這個環境部的執法通過嘛那環境部就可以在去年的8月22日來順利掛牌那也要謝謝薛部長臨為壽命成為第一任的這個環境部的部長但是部長現在現在不到一個月就要畢業先留"},{"start":13723.91,"end":13741.538,"text":"當然也感謝部長因為台灣的氣候變遷還有2050要進行碳排的相關政策進行產品的規劃跟佈局我在這邊也特別感謝部長在這麼短的時間來把這些事情做到一定的程度"},{"start":13742.538,"end":13762.408,"text":"不過有些問題,剩下這不大一個時間還是要請部長來關心因為今天主席剛好排這個噪音的相關的課題因為有時候等到現在部長來處理的時候可能會緩不濟急部長看一個新聞這個是去年的新聞那很清楚就是說暑假的噪音"},{"start":13763.729,"end":13765.03,"text":"我們在稽查的時候到底是用什麼方式去確定它的這個消音器有拔掉嗎?"},{"start":13794.183,"end":13807.508,"text":"對我們來講不是重點是說他排氣的時候產生的噪音有沒有超過我們的標準當然我們會對他排氣管看他是不是符合環境部認證的那個排氣管"},{"start":13808.542,"end":13835.683,"text":"對,看排氣管有沒有環境部有認證嘛對不對但是如果它的噪音值超過我們是用噪音管制法去做裁划嘛就1800到3600嘛對不對但是它拔掉這個消音器那划子又不一樣是依照道交法的43條去做處理嘛那這個部分是屬於檢查機關來做處理那副總就請說明一下你們怎麼去認定"},{"start":13837.436,"end":13859.455,"text":"他如果把這個消音的拔掉以後我們就到這條4、3條給他處罰對阿你們怎麼知道他拔掉用什麼樣的儀器去認定他拔掉還是木式還是以前的到現在喔到現在還是用那個圖法用剪棍去戳那個排氣管"},{"start":13860.106,"end":13886.504,"text":"那個排氣管它的形式非常多那不能夠用一個像掃把的餅進去戳以前是有這樣的不當的一個你們沒有用掃把的餅你們是用警棍對啦警棍也有員警用警棍以前是這樣現在是這樣嗎現在我們禁止這樣子去做我們如果能夠判斷的出來的話那我們就做判斷"},{"start":13887.724,"end":13902.53,"text":"那如果說有一些排氣管可以從外觀裡面看到它的排氣那個那個消音器已經拆掉的話那我們就直接來置擔拘捕那就是可以看得出來怎麼看嘛"},{"start":13904.461,"end":13922.438,"text":"從就是說 我不會看 老實講 不會看的時候如果聲音太大的時候 聲音太大就用噪音管制法去處理嘛 因為我們沒有儀器可以判斷 沒有嘛 所以我們只能夠把這一部車把它拍照下來之後 送請那個環保單位再去通知他來檢驗"},{"start":13923.559,"end":13941.911,"text":"送去環保單位來檢驗有關於噪音的部分就拍照下來有關於這部分那很清楚了對不對他如果噪音的聲量過高那當然又環境部地方環保局處理對不對但是如果拔除他的消音器誰來認定"},{"start":13943.512,"end":13962.204,"text":"誰來處理拆除消音器的確就是說我們有一些是沒辦法用目視來看那如果說從排氣管的後端可以看得出來的那我們怎麼看嗎所以就是這個部分也看不出來我老實講我沒有在實務做過我不會看"},{"start":13963.266,"end":13972.88,"text":"警察突然一下可以馬上問啦,誰會看,能不能來跟我們說明一下?基本上這一些屬於...沒有啦,你不要到我那裡坐嘛,你有在看嗎?還是你們的同仁有在旁邊,你叫他們來講問題,你們是怎麼看嘛?"},{"start":13975.765,"end":13995.153,"text":"那個早期會用...好啦我給你看一個案例好不好請部長跟副長看這個案例嘛這是一個桃園的一名純性男子在114點8月9號晚上10點半召警攔查嘛因為他拆除排氣管箱去被開花6千嘛並調供牌照這個6個月嘛他提出申訴最後法官認為該院警經理現場聽聞狀況判定聽啊、聞啊"},{"start":14000.219,"end":14028.666,"text":"你是說這麼看的喔?那我就不曉得你怎麼看的啊?我對不對?然後最後就是缺乏儀器的檢查也無從回推承攬排氣管是我拆除消音器因此該罰單撤銷啊?雖然今天你要把你罪犯報告這個事情你不解決你怎麼去抓噪音?你怎麼去嚇阻人家拔除消音器?沒有啊!因為我現在請教你的時候你也沒辦法回答我啊你說用看的啊那你叫一個人來跟我講說怎麼看嘛給委會講說你怎麼看嘛"},{"start":14029.69,"end":14044.882,"text":"我們是要解決問題嘛對不對所以我才講說你不能再像其實也不能講像以前現在是這樣啊還是有員警拿警棍在捅那個排氣管啊去確定到底有沒有把這個消音器拔掉啊"},{"start":14047.381,"end":14073.281,"text":"當然不會拿掃保啦謝謝劉委員的建議啦我覺得這個應該去我們跟這個經濟部跟交通部這邊來研究一下看看這個漏洞要怎麼去我們就是要解決問題嘛對不對如果現在在做這個事情的時候都還用不是科學的方式到最終你們很積極的去做這樣的攬查結果到了法院的判決是這個樣子"},{"start":14075.461,"end":14100.84,"text":"事實上這個可以跟原來的產品去做比對嘛看看是不是其中哪一個部分消音器被拿掉還是怎麼樣當然需要花一些時間啦我想我們透過質詢就是要解決問題嘛是不是部長還有警政署還有交通部應該是一個月內是不是可以來研擬到底這個事情要用什麼樣的方式更精準用科學方式來做這樣的一個處理"},{"start":14102.221,"end":14128.166,"text":"才不會讓遠景還有地方的這些環保人員對啊 努力了半天結果對 好 罰單就被撤銷好 謝謝 兩位請回好不好 我是提前講好不好 我們不知道就是罵別人啦 我想委員都會準備才會問嘛 你如果自己不清楚回答這個某兩個事情自己都不清楚的話 我想有時候有時候會漏氣啦"},{"start":14129.793,"end":14131.4,"text":"那第二件事情是這樣,部長有沒有看過這個貼紙"},{"start":14134.862,"end":14161.176,"text":"我倒是沒有看過啦這個是以前環保署現在變成環境部啦齁這確定應該是所以前做的這個噪音審驗合格證OK沒有問題吧是應該是嘛齁我們這是以前這是早期用的早期阿不然你現在還有什麼新的現在沒有新的這個不用這個啦阿所以你國內就幫你買了這現在沒有在用就對了阿這就你們做的嘛對"},{"start":14162.539,"end":14185.874,"text":"對嗎?好,你再看旁邊這張右邊這個是不是也是你們做的?你慎重回答你前面就沒辦法去認定了你不要第二章你跟我講說是或不是你也不行都不回答喔來"},{"start":14192.366,"end":14218.3,"text":"這個除了看起來顏色不一樣,裡面的包括文字,包括那個,看起來蠻像的這應該有問題,這個好像是在那個網路上可以買到的一個貼紙請消保官去查所以這個是不是你們的?不是好,那再問一次,左邊是不是你們的?審驗合格證是不是你們的?右邊你跟我講不是了嘛,對不對?你確定了嗎?"},{"start":14219.434,"end":14245.991,"text":"理論上這個環境部應該不會去貼高噪音的這種東西對啊低噪音比較好的東西才會去貼好不好那右邊邏輯的右邊這個叫做噪音審驗不合格證肯定不是你們我們當然不會去到現在不敢果定的去答覆我那就很奇怪了然後自己貼的東西當然那時候你不是當司長我知道也不是部長你要當部長任內不過這基本上"},{"start":14247.626,"end":14266.897,"text":"一個合格檢驗證基本上就是剛才陳副部長答覆我的對相關的排氣管我們有個認證的這樣的一個機制嘛我也必須在這個地方去貼相關的一個驗證的合格標章嘛是那個零牌嘛這個怎麼會有人去貼這種東西然後那我們要怎麼處理"},{"start":14269.266,"end":14292.756,"text":"你說貼右手邊證對對對對對對貼這個噪音審驗不合格證啊環境部假如有發現就應該去包括公開說明去這個發新聞稿跟澄清透過媒體其他環境部不可能去貼所謂的高噪音還是什麼之類這個是不合邏輯的概念是啊但是人家是貼高噪音不合格證啊"},{"start":14294.096,"end":14294.376,"text":"有沒有華哲?"},{"start":14309.575,"end":14337.574,"text":"這個貼紙大概沒有法則但是他不可以用行政院環保署車輛的這個不可以用這個侵犯到等於說我們的這個機關的那個嘛對公部門機關相關的名稱都不可以去使用對不對這其實已經觸及了紅線啊也是在挑釁公部門我們知道要怎麼處理嘛這挑戰公權力我覺得這個是"},{"start":14338.895,"end":14342.82,"text":"應該怎麼處理?我們來瞭解一下事件怎麼炒除?他們去炒除怎麼炒除?這個有花折嗎?"},{"start":14349.793,"end":14373.226,"text":"後來這個公民交易法上面是有規定這個不行的那現在就請他下架不能再賣是因為你們後來還會有這個相關的改裝排氣管認證的制度嘛對不對明年現在是緩衝期嘛明年你們就要全面來上路了嘛是對那之前就有這個狀況現在未來一定會有其他的狀況在發生嘛是"},{"start":14373.746,"end":14374.046,"text":"好。OK。"},{"start":14391.718,"end":14394.32,"text":"謝謝劉建國委員接下來請羅志強委員發言我先做一些宣告中午不休息質詢到登記委員發言結束後才休息"},{"start":14423.55,"end":14447.789,"text":"主席有請薛部長請薛部長好,羅文好部長好民眾對於居住環境品質的要求是越來越高那不管是空氣品質、水質都是關心的重要環境指標但有一個很重要的衡量標準是今天的主題就是噪音的指數沒錯,現在越來越重要"},{"start":14448.589,"end":14470.661,"text":"對,那噪音污染在各地的1999市民專線當中也常是民眾公害陳情的熱門項目因為長期如果暴露在噪音之下會造成憂鬱、失眠、高血壓那世界衛生組織以均能音量55分貝作為住宅區戶外的一個音量建議標準"},{"start":14473.042,"end":14488.319,"text":"這次環境部提的有關於噪音管制報告的內容主要是針對移動噪音來源管理那因為車輛噪音有移動跟不定時性所以環境部也就是針對比較大宗像國產機車的跟進口機車的排氣管噪音"},{"start":14492.603,"end":14512.937,"text":"但是隨著不同的環境的來源跟區域其實民眾還是有不一樣的困擾那我想請教一下部長在我的選區丹安區移動車輛噪音不分重機之外還有一種車輛也常常造成民眾的投訴跟困擾你知道是什麼樣的交通工具嗎?什麼樣的移動車輛嗎?"},{"start":14517.352,"end":14544.003,"text":"我告訴你,超跑啦!超跑啦!跑車啦!那你有沒有在路上被超跑的聲音嚇到過?有沒有這個經驗?應該有,這個多多少少是我們的生活經驗當中一個就是超跑呼呼過去其實就是那種音量非常大那其實蠻多超跑的駕駛不管是購買還是用租的他享受的是什麼?"},{"start":14546.288,"end":14568.194,"text":"他其實想說就是音浪感嘛 對不對就引擎的音浪感但是你像超跑法拉利隨便一吹油門他製造噪音就非常驚人可是雖然很多的一些有些這個超跑他的音浪感讓這個駕駛人覺得是非常喜歡但是對一般民眾卻是噩夢啦"},{"start":14571.155,"end":14591.471,"text":"單區的狀況其實我這裡有很多民眾有反應就是說有時候半夜就呼過去那真的是非常老民好那剛剛提到很多機車是出廠後使用非認證的排氣管對不對是然後所以要改裝就要監理站去變更登記對不對可是你知道操跑來說他們會怎麼說你知道嗎"},{"start":14592.759,"end":14615.053,"text":"你知道他們怎麼說?面對這個排氣管的問題事實上對超跑的擁有者我們也在檢討像我們對他的包括罰款之類對他們來講是一點影響力都沒有答對了真的完全沒影響對啊他根本不care他不care嘛那我要跟大家講就是說事實上對於這些超跑的擁有者車主會說這是原廠設定"},{"start":14618.834,"end":14632.462,"text":"他連他根本沒在改裝他不用改裝他就原廠了然後呢他音量非常大本身音量就非常大那其實這其實形成一個很弔詭的狀況就是說有些他原廠設定的音量就非常的大那"},{"start":14634.483,"end":14661.393,"text":"比方說各種操作引擎不同那噪音的標準我們看了一下大概平均在89到100分貝之間可是根據噪音的管制法道路速限小於50公里那噪音超過多少那其實就已經違規了是超於86分貝速限50到70公里噪音超過90分貝對不對也就是說換言之它的原廠基本上"},{"start":14662.421,"end":14675.496,"text":"他直接一吹油門馬上就已經超過那個分貝了那目前我們開罰的那個罰環的那個那個那個就是範圍是多大最低多少最高多少"},{"start":14676.052,"end":14697.198,"text":"一千八到三千六對他們來講可能就就是部長講的啊是啊他不是呃罰不怕他是根本不怕罰嘛對不對那所以像現在這種東西就是對於這個超跑造成的噪音問題我不知道環境部也好交通部也好警政署有沒有討論過什麼改善的方法你也剛點出一個關鍵說他還真的是"},{"start":14698.078,"end":14712.693,"text":"他就當繳規費一樣啊基本上就是我今天我就讓你罰嘛那可是這種情形你覺得讓我們民眾陷入這個噪音的這個所謂的汙染那個問題好像在目前法制上我沒有看到解決方式欸"},{"start":14713.595,"end":14736.765,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛有委員建議這個祭典搞不好是可以考慮反而是去祭典多少次以後依著要求車主要去上課甚至要做其他這些超跑擁有者比較會覺得造成很大不便才比花錢更有效我覺得很好啦我覺得部長雖然"},{"start":14737.865,"end":14747.4,"text":"雖然你好像也快要畢業了嘛但是我覺得剛剛的建議真的留給我們的行政機關去看啦就是說你今天我們如果真的要管制一下違規行為你要讓對方覺得這個處罰讓他是有感"},{"start":14753.508,"end":14753.909,"text":"謝謝羅智強委員發言"},{"start":14775.619,"end":14803.902,"text":"羅明財委員、羅明財委員、羅明財委員不在賴士寶委員、賴士寶委員、賴士寶委員不在徐欣盈委員、徐欣盈委員、徐欣盈委員不在游皓委員、游皓委員、游皓委員不在吳秉瑞委員、吳秉瑞委員、吳秉瑞委員不在陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員不在鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員不在"},{"start":14804.542,"end":14830.552,"text":"接下來請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員不在接下來請陳英委員發言好謝謝昭偉那麻煩首先請那個顏旭明署長環關署"},{"start":14841.047,"end":14853.537,"text":"公初去哪裡?佛光山他去農業經濟委員會"},{"start":14861.124,"end":14866.591,"text":"他去考察所以你來他去經濟委員會考察所以你來未還委員會備詢代理"},{"start":14870.387,"end":14898.405,"text":"好,那個部長這樣子啦,我也跟那個我覺得是這樣,我剛剛看一下你們今天這個出席的名單也順便替召委講幾句話啦因為這個是我們那個會已經開始了嗎?我還沒開始質詢我先我們講一下這個程序的問題好不好因為那個是這樣子我覺得今天來的這個名單除了大氣環境司是司長以外呢那"},{"start":14899.614,"end":14919.269,"text":"其他的都是負的那特別是剛剛言署長這個科技執法的部分是他們主管的業務那但是他卻跑去經濟委員會考察那通常本委員會安排的會議通常都是正的要出席"},{"start":14920.189,"end":14935.856,"text":"但是呢你們今天來的大部分都是副的不說連主管科技執法的這個環境管理署卻是派副署長來結果署長跑去考察這樣像話嗎我覺得你們很嚴重在藐視我們的朝委喔"},{"start":14937.482,"end":14965.44,"text":"我必須要在這裡做這樣的提醒謝謝陳委員的指教抱歉那今天針對噪音這一塊是大氣師主責的這個單位所以我們大氣師的張順興但我剛剛講了我剛剛講了這個科技執法的部分也是嚴署長主管的業務所以我也沒有偏離主題我點名他是對的"},{"start":14966.941,"end":14990.208,"text":"所以我在這邊也替我們召委講幾句話他不要動不動屬物會議就跑去佛光山旁邊還有專人奉茶這個都有照片為證然後我很想了解一下你們的屬物會議去那邊開會議記錄內容是什麼因為我看那個照片佛光山那邊發的新聞稿出來的照片大家都是在遊山玩水在看風景啊"},{"start":14991.581,"end":15017.642,"text":"你們要不要叫署長來交代,你不用在這裡回答我啦,這浪費我時間我等一下還要關心噪音的問題我只是說一連貫為什麼要先點名他因為前面那一段今天考察他又不在因為我覺得他不出席今天本委員會的會議是不對的要考察應該副署長你去考察你不是代理應該署長來開會"},{"start":15019.423,"end":15021.826,"text":"目前最嚴重影響環境噪音的問題前兩名是交通及營建工程所以今天想要先跟你們討論這個問題"},{"start":15041.146,"end":15054.684,"text":"氣機車行駛中產生的噪音是違反交通法規還是你們主管的這個環境噪音管制標準那你們所收取的罰環是地方政府收去還是中央收取入庫"},{"start":15057.926,"end":15082.848,"text":"噪音的部分是環境部來主責所以當然就是到我們的基金裡面去我們張市長來回答一下分兩塊一個是車上行駛中的那個噪音是依照噪音法來開罰罰額是收到地方的那個地方的那個"},{"start":15083.527,"end":15103.133,"text":"好謝謝那這個有關於這個取締交通法規常聽到警察機關都會訂定績效指標那汽機車違反噪音管制標準有沒有訂定績效指標沒有我們噪音的部分齁這個並沒有這個績效指標的概念但你們未來會不會考慮來訂這樣子的"},{"start":15105.273,"end":15127.193,"text":"因為目前的案子的量說真的也還不是那麼高啦但是為了有機率的效果科技執法的這一塊倒是不用嘛因為它是用科技執法24小時但是這個我們跟這個交通部跟警政署用人為的方式的這一部分事實上是可以來考慮特別是民眾只要反映說這個"},{"start":15130.055,"end":15149.61,"text":"所以那個部長你說那個目前沒有定績效指標不定是因為案件不多事實上是案件應該是相較起來應該是不是那麼多啦跟機車不是績效不好是案件不多好沒關係那你們有沒有檢舉專線有有檢舉專線有齁幾號阿你都不知道"},{"start":15155.683,"end":15158.065,"text":"今年1到3月,全國平均每月取締多少件?有沒有統計分析?"},{"start":15188.974,"end":15214.359,"text":"還是陳文這一塊我們容後再向文報告?你們有資料嗎?還是需要時間整理?那陳文可不可以這個會後我們再請皇冠署?對啊因為署長都出去考察又去佛光山我們也只能等會後了啊但我佛光山是我問他三次他都給我裝傻都不回答我好那你們再會後整理給我謝謝"},{"start":15215.599,"end":15235.684,"text":"因為這個聲音的分貝值會隨著量測的距離的平方呈反比因為是利用科技的技術所以理論上應該會有一個客觀的標準讓全國各地都可以公平的來執法環境部有沒有訂定統一的測量及取締的標準?有沒有?"},{"start":15237.125,"end":15265.141,"text":"給陳委員報告,事實上我們不擔心測量的距離因為這個都可以回推回去就如剛剛陳委員講,隨著距離的改變它的音量會減少但是我們現在都可以用人工智慧一量就知道距離多遠,所以倒退回去從排氣管發出來的聲音多少好,那你們量測的這個數值是大概是多遠的距離然後那個舉發的時候有沒有提供數據證明"},{"start":15266.081,"end":15267.002,"text":"我這樣乍聽之下感覺有點怪怪的不會啊"},{"start":15294.837,"end":15308.268,"text":"我特別要提一下這個立法院是一個噪音相當多的地方因為常常有很多人違規帶麥克風跟大喇叭進到議場亂吼亂叫分貝之大"},{"start":15313.593,"end":15342.632,"text":"那剛剛有特別這個羅智強委員也有講說噪音會影響身心健康會憂鬱啊造成憂鬱失眠高血壓大家知道這個心血管疾病可能會容易中風高血壓那憂鬱失眠我這邊還有一些案例就是嚴重的話他甚至輕則影響工作效率那重的話甚至會出現殺人傷害別人的這種脫序的行為"},{"start":15343.893,"end":15372.201,"text":"所以我想要請問說像立法院這樣的嚴重的噪音你們會不會主動舉發?會嗎?市內的噪音的部分我想環境部目前大概還沒有在做那你們就是那如果有人檢舉你們會不會來開單開法可是這個陳委員這種我們現在用人工的這種方法就是有這個挑戰"},{"start":15373.881,"end":15384.827,"text":"你剛有科技執法你可以在議場、在大院裝個那個看固定式還是移動式就是噪音的監測系統嗎?將來我們這個噪音偵測設備量非常多的時候"},{"start":15392.61,"end":15414.778,"text":"我覺得這個不是量多不多的問題而是有沒有需要的問題那因為我想每一位立法委員的工作都是相當重要的因為要代表人民發聲我們必須要在一個良好的狀態下所以呢這種噪音其實會嚴重影響立委開會的這個狀態"},{"start":15417.559,"end":15443.729,"text":"所以為什麼會常有脫序的行為我想噪音是很嚴重所以在這邊也要請你們幫幫忙也特別提醒立法院的確是一個很好監測然後開單的地方好那民眾都知道超數越多那裁罰的金額就越大那麼噪音值超過的越多有沒有罰還越多那目前就是測到的這個最大的違規分貝值是多少"},{"start":15445.343,"end":15469.426,"text":"我們目前測到的最高的分貝是多少?我曾經測到100最高到100對100dB好 謝謝那警察可不可以就是說一經發現立即舉發因為舉發完這部車輛還是一樣產生噪音所以我要請教就是說交通噪音可不可以連續舉發那這個問題法令有沒有規定?"},{"start":15470.771,"end":15474.272,"text":"噪音管制的標準規定有沒有舉發的標準方法?舉發的職權是警察還是環保局的人員?"},{"start":15499.572,"end":15528.807,"text":"目前來講環保局就是會攜帶設備就直接量測有些會經過過濾之後他覺得吵然後就攔下來檢測、超標、開單所以是環保局的人員?環保局就是直接稽查那因為警察機關有些會覺得吵但是沒有噪音設備所以他會把拍照存證以後送環保局然後我們會請車主過來我們再檢驗他的所以你拍照也只能拍到影像沒有辦法拍到噪音的音量啊?"},{"start":15529.467,"end":15554.529,"text":"這個會有困難,包括民眾檢舉所以這個未來就是你們要去討論客服的地方嗎?是因為接下來要請教營建工程產生的噪音這個部分占了11萬4千多件的陳情案的24%那檢報中也沒有指出要如何處理所以我要請教勞動部的檢察員是依據"},{"start":15555.931,"end":15576.012,"text":"職業安全衛生法及勞動檢查法在執行業務．那對象是工作者．可是噪音大到民眾陳情．那就表示說民眾的生活品質已經被產生很大的影響．所以部長這個部分你們是要如何裁罰或舉法．"},{"start":15578.732,"end":15589.533,"text":"這個也是跟機車剛剛講到的噪音超標就要開罰那事實上我們是對這營建工程基本上是鼓勵他們要自主管理"},{"start":15591.102,"end":15619.287,"text":"這是管理不必要到民眾舉花之後他才這個所以是依照現場的那個分貝的音量大小不是說民眾聽到自己在家裡民眾聽到聲音很大他是可以舉花他但是你們要知道我在這邊我另外提出一個要提醒大家的因為我更不喜歡音樂我對聲音比較敏感因為有一些聲音他不一定是大聲才有影響他如果"},{"start":15619.907,"end":15635.383,"text":"就是一直在持續即便它是一種微弱的然後持續的比較低頻的我大概知道對所以那個也是一種很大的干擾我希望這個也可以列進去好不好你們去參考一下那最後低頻的"},{"start":15636.424,"end":15663.391,"text":"補一點時間因為一般地方環保局的人員都有正常上下班那現在很多這個營建工程的噪音都是夜間產生的那你們夜間的接受陳情管道跟人力跟處理的人力有嗎?這一部分因為實際在執行面的說真的是地方環保局那夜間事實上對他們來講在人力上也是造成很大的影響所以這個也是今天點出來也是一個漏洞所以也是要你們要去補強的"},{"start":15664.751,"end":15685.06,"text":"你們也有移動式的科技設備,那營建工程可能利用這個方法去監測工地嗎?可以所以我想結論是這樣,因為今天的專報凸顯了四個問題就是陳情多、財閥少、那追究民眾不追究事業單位還有只知道運用科技去發現但是沒有解決問題"},{"start":15686.26,"end":15709.031,"text":"再來就是重交通卻忽略營建工程等其他噪音所以本期在這邊就是有深刻的提認環境噪音問題是影響民眾生活安寧很重要的關鍵那環境部已經升格之後呢那應該要思考如何提升民眾的這個生活品質那原來環保署時代的思維你們都是要重新檢討"},{"start":15710.371,"end":15737.359,"text":"所以我在這邊期許你們環境部的文官不要因為部長要換到另外一個地方就有這個業務空窗起和帶墮那未來本期也會持續關注這個環境噪音的問題那也要求部長要重視這個問題然後好好你們也好好整頓一下立法院的噪音謝謝好謝謝陳文的建議跟指導謝謝好謝謝陳委員的發言接下來請楊耀委員發言"},{"start":15752.453,"end":15755.397,"text":"謝謝主席。主席我請一下大氣環境師張市長。請張市長。"},{"start":15765.419,"end":15793.761,"text":"市長我們噪音稽查就是一件很困難的事情我們2023年全國的噪音稽查處分概況來看這全國大概有10萬件有10萬件的稽核的數大概從稽核的結果來看有5萬件是無法監測或者未發現"},{"start":15796.215,"end":15810.001,"text":"佔總案件量的五成而且因為這一些噪音的稽查案件中大概有七成六是陳情的陳情案"},{"start":15811.516,"end":15841.136,"text":"那這樣子的話因為沒有辦法因為有民眾陳情那我們又再集合的效率來看是沒有那麼高的這個會嚴重影響人民對於政府執法的信賴所以這個無法監測跟未發現結案的原因是什麼"},{"start":15842.956,"end":15866.824,"text":"我想跟委員報告第一個噪音本身來講它如果不是固定的機具或者是固定的場所發生出來的那這種檢舉案想要去抓得到其實難度非常高就是跑來跑去證據保存非常困難對不對對你的意思就是這樣不像空氣空氣都已經很難了噪音更難對"},{"start":15868.744,"end":15888.602,"text":"一下子就過了嗎?對可是問題在哪裡我們知道你們有沒有解決的方法所以我們在處理事情是這樣子我們首先要先發現問題現在知道最大的困難就在證據的保存"},{"start":15890.049,"end":15916.463,"text":"那怎麼克服?這我想跟各位報告我現在構想裡面就是說因為噪音的量測就是你要即時量測到發生噪音很難所以有一個我們可能接下來會嘗試用大數據的方式從檢舉的地方我們用圖示的方式標出來之後哪些地方最容易在什麼時段發生噪音的"},{"start":15917.023,"end":15930.786,"text":"事件導致沉潛我們可能我們那個設備剛剛前面有提到就我們設備有些移動式的我們就以這些點位來佈設這個做法我覺得還不錯要不然其實沒有證據就沒有辦法處罰對不對保存證據這麼困難我覺得這個方法可以除了這個以外還有沒有其他的"},{"start":15945.752,"end":15965.339,"text":"這是其中目前想到就手頭上有的資訊可以掌握到的那我另外再問一個問題就是因為我們從明年開始排氣管的噪音就列為正式的檢驗項目 對不對"},{"start":15967.745,"end":15984.772,"text":"就是說如果你改裝的話你需要更新記錄 對不對那他是必須要就是改裝排氣管的民眾可以自行委託噪音的實驗室或者是地方"},{"start":15986.448,"end":15989.03,"text":"然後明年也必須要沒有檢驗的話也必須要開罰"},{"start":16015.945,"end":16039.931,"text":"沒有檢驗的話改裝之後沒有登記就是道交條例這邊會處罰那可是現在來看是像到今年的第一季改裝排氣管的登錄系統統計是13000那地方環保局跟實驗室已經處理的是4600"},{"start":16042.572,"end":16071.169,"text":"整體的執行率大概只有35%目前執行率這麼低,原因是什麼?檢測的量能不夠?因為我們去年底開始決定要這樣做之後到今年其實有一段時間讓環保局去籌備所以剛開始會比較慢而且2月6日碰到過年所以那個工作天數其實是比較少目前大概30%我們估算以這個速度下去應該8月底可以消化完"},{"start":16071.829,"end":16073.951,"text":"主席我請一下警政署副署長"},{"start":16102.125,"end":16128.197,"text":"市長因為你們很少有機會到胃環所以今天本席就跟你探討兩個有關警察人力的問題因為警察的操勤加班其實已經變成常態那變成常態呢常態中又有另外一個病態"},{"start":16131.596,"end":16159.179,"text":"就是警情的加班是這樣子算大概月資信奉加專業加給除以240所以假如說剛新進的行政警察他的月資信奉加專業加給除以240下來他其實不到"},{"start":16162.653,"end":16180.49,"text":"基本工資他未達基本工資不要說加班還要算還要乘以1.33、1.66所以不算以後這個我覺得對於新進的員警太不公平了"},{"start":16183.066,"end":16207.194,"text":"有沒有解決的辦法?感謝委員對我們基層同仁的關心因為事實上從我們大法官的785號的解釋有關健康前的立法旨意那我們照這個立法旨意我們定一個規定定一個辦法就是我們警察輪班輪休人員的勤休的規定的要點"},{"start":16208.234,"end":16221.908,"text":"我知道你們這個就是根據那個要點來的嘛我現在的意思是說你們能不能把要點就是最基本的提高到最低工資啦這個已經是最"},{"start":16223.65,"end":16224.391,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":16239.95,"end":16263.324,"text":"因為對我們新進的、剛畢業的或新進的因為他的底薪比較低照剛剛委員所已經很瞭解的除以240的這些總薪資他一個小時可能172那依照我們的規定依照我們這個辦法裡面就是一個人的法定的工作的熟悉每天都要8個小時那操勤加班的操勤的熟悉每天2至4個小時"},{"start":16264.525,"end":16287.192,"text":"那最高一個月不能操勤、操時扶勤不能超過100個小時在這個原則下我們這些年資比較淺的同仁他一個月要領到一萬九、最高一萬九他是有困難的副主長你想一個月操勤100個小時那個等於是用命在換了"},{"start":16288.692,"end":16314.379,"text":"那用命換都換不到平均下來最低基本工資這個我覺得對於年輕的新晉的員警太殘忍好不好我知道你在這邊沒有辦法做出很完整的答覆不過我還是必須要點出來你們回去好好的做我個人覺得最少必須要用最低基本工資來計算"},{"start":16319.06,"end":16338.871,"text":"我個人的看法最低最低啦像你們現在你們現在你們現在這個這個這個算算起來才才176我們剛新進的對不對他的縫點比較低對縫點比較低我現在的意思就是說你最少最少"},{"start":16340.051,"end":16361.44,"text":"你想嘛,一個月加班100點鐘,那個真的是已經算是很殘忍了那他加班100個小時反而平均下來拿不到勞工的基本時薪,這個就更悲慘"},{"start":16361.92,"end":16373.911,"text":"但我們現在跟委員報告我們現在經過現在我們給112人給他統計平均分析我們的營警的操行服勤操時服勤平均差不多55個小時棚委是55.9個小時那我們的營警因為"},{"start":16377.234,"end":16405.575,"text":"我們是要兼顧我們的健康情跟任務、治安的需求來做這種的評估所以這是一個情果一致性那超時扶勤它是屬於一種補償性不是一種固定扶勤制55個小時其實就等於每天要加班超過2.5啦所以這個就是我時間到了所以我也講一下就是說我一直覺得警察的勤務呢"},{"start":16406.616,"end":16424.522,"text":"越來越繁重,然後你們缺額一直不補,像以澎湖縣現在來看,就是說它的編制原額要850億,那現在的預算原額只有750億,這個缺額超過10%,"},{"start":16433.077,"end":16458.297,"text":"現在狀況是這樣我們的預算是751個噴霧線警察局751個那現在是683個我們現在切68個那我們的這個部分跟委員報告我們會等到我們的會今天在我們的官校或警大警大或是警專畢業或是我們定期統調的時候我們會優先來判補噴霧線警察局的缺額"},{"start":16459.298,"end":16485.82,"text":"不是,副部長謝謝啦,就是說優先把離島的缺額補滿這個概念也對啦,因為在本島統一調配就是互相支援比較快速啦可是我現在講的是整體國家的警政問題啦就是說因為這個不是只有澎湖有缺,是全台灣都缺啦"},{"start":16486.28,"end":16510.615,"text":"不過副部長剛剛承諾的優先把澎湖的缺額補足這個本席是跟你謝謝啦因為這個也有道理因為離島畢竟有獨立性嘛他在警力的統籌調配跟流用是跟本島有區別嘛"},{"start":16514.538,"end":16530.212,"text":"這兩個問題我知道副組長今天沒有辦法做明確的答覆可是我還是必須要提出來因為警察我還是拿一句話就是警察的情誤其實是越來越繁重那以剛剛我們的討論"},{"start":16533.034,"end":16558.34,"text":"討論算起來就是幾乎是每天平均只要有上班日平均的加班時數要到達大概超過2個小時所以這個工作也辛苦好不好警署裡面競訴跟各相關單位我知道不是只有你們的問題各相關單位可以研討出來解決的方案好不好好謝謝副組長謝謝主席謝謝委員"},{"start":16561.02,"end":16587.349,"text":"謝謝楊耀委員的發言本日會議詢答全部結束委員黃仁、邱振鈞、廖先祥、陳冠廷所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或補充資料請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定本日會議到此結束現在休息星期三上午9點繼續開會"},{"start":16594.107,"end":16594.788,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"15832","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15832","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528e2af675131898e7334182d8c913e7f3e33be8d109af184be449b2d8b0e0514f8f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-22","start_time":"2024-04-22T08:31:24+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-04-22T13:20:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":17316,"委員發言時間":"08:31:24 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中央總預算和平及執行向下 中央總預算之和平與執行中 業務費之一般事業費預算二十分之一6 決議六動決第二幕 中央總預算和平及執行向下 地方政府主計業務之督導與查核預算二十分之一7 決議七動決第三幕 特種基金預算和平及執行預算十分之一8 決議十動決第五幕 綜合統計業務向下 綜合辦理綜合統計之業務費預算五十萬元決議九"},{"start":1899.345,"end":1927.072,"text":"九、決議十二動決第九目國事普查業務向下辦理工業及服務業普查中業務費之委辦費預算十分之一十、決議十三動決第六目國事普查業務向下受僱員工薪資調查及生產力統計之業務費預算十分之一十一、決議十四動決第七目主計訓練業務預算十分之一十二、決議十五動決第八目主計資訊業務向下董計及行政資訊管理中業務費之資訊服務費預算十分之一十三、決議十六"},{"start":1927.792,"end":1949.244,"text":"動決第八目主計資訊業務向下資訊系統維域管理中業務費資資訊服務費預算十分之一十四決議十七動決第八目主計資訊業務向下經費捷報及親資資訊管理中業務費資資訊服務費預算十分之一十五決議十八動決第九目一般建築及設備第三節其他設備向下設備及投資中設備及投資資資訊軟硬體設備費預算十分之一"},{"start":1952.466,"end":1976.565,"text":"三、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議有關行政院主計總署檢送第29款第二預配金決議一、凍結該款預算二十分之一書面報告案。四、處理中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議有關審計部主管預算凍結書面報告案11案。一、決議一、凍結第二幕中央政府審計向下中央政府審計工作制業務費預算五十萬元。二、決議二、"},{"start":1977.726,"end":2001.131,"text":"動結第二幕,中央政府審計向下,中央政府審計工作中,業務費之資訊服務費預算50萬元。決議三,動結第二幕,中央政府審計向下,中央政府審計工作中,業務費之資訊服務費預算十分之一。決議四,動結第二幕,中央政府審計向下,中央政府審計工作中,業務費之資訊服務費預算50萬元。決議五,動結第二幕,中央政府審計向下,中央政府審計工作預算20萬元。"},{"start":2003.131,"end":2025.921,"text":"決議六 動決第二幕 中央政府審計向下審計訓練預算十分之一 七決議七動決第三幕 縣市地方審計向下縣市地方審計工作之業務費預算十分之一 八決議八動決第四幕 一般建築及設備第二節其他設備向下審計業務電腦化系統更新中設備及投資之資訊軟硬體設備費預算十分之一 九台中市審計處決議一"},{"start":2028.102,"end":2049.591,"text":"動決第二幕審計業務預算二十分之一﹖十﹖臺灣市審計處決議動決第二幕審計業務預算二十分之一﹖十﹖高雄市審計處決議動決第二幕審計業務預算二十分之一﹖書面報告案﹖決定上列27案經以報告完成準以當之提報院會。臺灣事項一、審查中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議有關行政組織總署預算動決書面報告案三案﹖"},{"start":2053.232,"end":2068.662,"text":"一、決議八、凍結第四幕會計及決算業務預算十分之一二、決議九、凍結第五幕綜合統計業務預算十分之一三、決議十一、凍結第二幕國稅普查業務預算十分之一二、審查證券投資信託及顧問法三案"},{"start":2069.102,"end":2088.843,"text":"一、行政院行政審議本院委員郭國文等16人擬具《證券投資信託及顧問法部分條文修正草案》等2案。二、本院委員林祖英等17人擬具《證券投資信託及顧問法第一條、第二條及第三條之一條文修正草案》。三、審查本院委員郭國文等16人擬具《不動產證券化條例部分條文修正草案》。"},{"start":2090.124,"end":2103.84,"text":"討論四項個案合併詢答經文郭國文、林楚瑜說明提案要旨經常監督管理委員會主任委員黃天牧就行政院提案報告並回應委員法律提案行政院主計總署、主計長朱哲銘提出預算解當報告案後"},{"start":2104.961,"end":2123.165,"text":"繼由委員林德夫等46人提出質詢,均經金融監督管理委員會主任委員黃天牧等予以說明及答覆。決議一、報告說明及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢會及答覆或請補充資訊,請相關部會與州內以書論答覆,委員要求期限者從其鎖定。三、委員嚴關人林楚英所提書論質詢略入記錄刊登公報,並請相關部會以書論答覆。四、"},{"start":2126.846,"end":2154.394,"text":"中華民國113年度中央政府總預算決議有關行政組織總署主管預算凍結輸入報告案3案均以審查環境,準以動之提報院會。5.台灣事項二級3案均另折旗繼續審查,通過臨時提案一案。宣讀完畢請各位對議事錄內容有異議?沒有異議?好,異議事錄確定請議事人員宣讀今日議程"},{"start":2155.627,"end":2179.947,"text":"討論事項：一、審查娛樂稅法6案、本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具、「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案。」等4案。二、本院委員黃潔等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢紙、「娛樂稅法。」等2案。二、審查保險法4案：一、本院委員羅明才等17人擬具保險法第146條之4條文修正草案。二、"},{"start":2182.449,"end":2207.62,"text":"委員蔡依儀等19人、委員王宏威等16人分別擬具保險法第177條條文修正草案等2案。三、審查人民情願有關娛樂稅法3案與訊息完畢。介紹現場林德福林委員吳秉瑞委員王世堅王委員"},{"start":2210.626,"end":2237.504,"text":"富癸徐委員財政部部長莊退雲法制處代理處長黃慧玲國庫署署長陳柏澄負稅署署長宋秀玲官務署署長彭英偉國有財產署署長曾國基"},{"start":2241.466,"end":2260.184,"text":"財政諮詢中心主任張文熙經管會主委黃天牧銀行局副局長林志吉政企局局長張振山保險局局長施瓊華檢察局局長張子昊"},{"start":2267.557,"end":2278.927,"text":"行政院主計總處公務預算處吳明修專門委員教育部體育署周德倫專門委員文化部藝術發展司李潔明專門委員經濟部商業發展署副組長莊文林"},{"start":2295.796,"end":2323.076,"text":"勞動部副司長黃琦雅法務部參事林豐文另外各縣市有臺北市財政局副局長黃毅廷另外新北、桃園、台中、彰化、雲林、嘉義等等請大家參佐"},{"start":2328.121,"end":2350.107,"text":"現在請王世堅委員說明提案要旨請稍後我們念一下今日議程的安排內容再請王世堅、王委員來說明提案要旨來請宣讀"},{"start":2361.705,"end":2378.5,"text":"審查一、委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人及委員王世堅等23人分別擬具、「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案"},{"start":2379.241,"end":2406.832,"text":"二、委員黃潔等19人及委員羅明才等16人分別擬會址與樂稅法。三、委員羅明才等17人擬具保險法第146條之4條文修正草案。四、委員蔡易宇等19人及委員王宏威等16人分別擬具保險法第171條條文修正草案。"},{"start":2407.833,"end":2413.65,"text":"五處理人民情願案三案現在請王世堅、王偉"},{"start":2430.836,"end":2447.767,"text":"主席、各位立委同仁、我們財政部長、金管會主委、在場的所有官員們。早期課徵娛樂稅,其實我用四個字來形容就是欲禁於徵啦。"},{"start":2449.056,"end":2472.7,"text":"那麼當時因為高消費的娛樂所以要來課稅把它列為奢侈稅的一種但是數十年下來時代進步啦時移境遷現在娛樂稅要課徵的幾個項目早已經不是高消費比方說看電影啦"},{"start":2474.039,"end":2485.368,"text":"看歌唱表演、臨場交響樂團的演出等等這都已經不是高消費了那麼目前文創產業它成長"},{"start":2489.915,"end":2517.993,"text":"占的營業額已經達到我們GDP的總額4.8%而從業的文創產業的人口數也達到2.4%那自從文策院成立以後我們國家也大金額的來扶植文創產業比方說在電影、在戲劇"},{"start":2519.602,"end":2531.372,"text":"的拍攝、在樂團演出、戲劇團體的補助等等。我光是舉2021年光補助的金額就達到9.8億。這個金額是2021年成長了70%左右。"},{"start":2542.338,"end":2564.406,"text":"那如果說我們政府政策我們不斷的鼓勵推動文創然後又要對文創的成果這樣子的消費要來課娛樂稅那這不是互相矛盾嗎一方面鼓勵一方面又要課稅所以我查了一下財政部過去反對"},{"start":2565.986,"end":2588.917,"text":"廢止娛樂稅他說啊財政部的意思說難有替代財源那我看了這幾年我們娛樂稅大概一年16到18億啦而且民國96年當年修改娛樂稅法的時候已經有下了附帶決議就是說一年後一年內啦就應該把娛樂稅廢除好啦"},{"start":2593.876,"end":2599.082,"text":"難有替代裁員找了17年還找不到替代裁員嗎?"},{"start":2600.905,"end":2628.037,"text":"才16億到18億之多找了17年而且這16億至18億的金額對我們整體稅收而言根本為乎其為所以我覺得財政部如果繼續拖延的話那就是四個字以拖待變那麼這一次我的提案裡面也把高爾夫納入因為我認為高爾夫現在早就普及算是全民運動啦"},{"start":2629.318,"end":2651.696,"text":"那麼財政部的理由過去的理由說有耗費環境資源之意確實高雄福球場會耗費環境資源但是我們應該用另外的綠色稅制來課他才對嘛應該把娛樂稅取消我們應該研擬比方說對高雄福球場課能源稅啦"},{"start":2652.797,"end":2652.838,"text":"若果﹖"},{"start":2664.554,"end":2683.978,"text":"在一年多到民國115年1月1日如果財政部還沒有研擬新的稅制作為替代財源的話那麼就應該停止徵收娛樂稅我認為加了這樣的附帶條款這個落日條款"},{"start":2684.958,"end":2705.782,"text":"讓財政部有一個時間上的壓力否則就像先前已經找了替代財源找了17年竟然一點點16到18億竟然都找不到我覺得這樣子是非常離譜的所以今天我做出了這個提案向各位委員同仁做說明謝謝謝謝王委員"},{"start":2711.909,"end":2714.914,"text":"接著請徐富癸徐委員"},{"start":2726.239,"end":2751.409,"text":"謝謝主席我想本席這次也針對我們娛樂稅法提出一個立法的一個修正因為過去我們在課徵所謂的娛樂稅有一個時空的一個背景當時因為我們的財政困窘甚至就是為了提倡所謂一個簡約的生活模式所以我們財政部訂定了所謂的一個驗息稅啦相關的一些娛樂稅作為一個地方稅收的一個收入"},{"start":2751.949,"end":2761.056,"text":"但是隨著時代的演變我想我們娛樂稅也經過多次的修法那過去立法院也取消了宴席稅那也將撞球場、保齡球館這些稅從我們的課稅的課題中課除"},{"start":2767.841,"end":2788.321,"text":"時間經過了20年,那我們也認為承容剛剛我們王世堅委員提的有一些課稅的項目我們也認為不盡合理,尤其是目前我們像我們一直在地方政府一直扶植所謂的一個體育競技甚至一些藝文活動的表演,那我想這些產業把他們放在一個課稅的標的裡面"},{"start":2790.223,"end":2813.571,"text":"甚至要求要提出一些免稅的證明我想對所謂的一個中央也好或是地方政府也好形成很大的一個壓力那比如說像我們屏東縣在推廣觀光我們有許多的民宿但是我們現在有些民宿業者為了招攬客人他們有設置一個卡拉OK的設備那這些設備也成了我們娛樂稅、課稅的一個標的"},{"start":2816.112,"end":2832.328,"text":"我們認為不盡合理那尤其最近這幾年我們疫情復甦之後許多的縣市政府都在舉辦所謂的演唱會或是音樂會那這樣子的一個舉辦的活動根據本期的調查光是"},{"start":2832.788,"end":2832.988,"text":"議員王世堅"},{"start":2854.842,"end":2855.443,"text":" ﹝財政財政財政法案﹞"},{"start":2871.94,"end":2873.221,"text":"﹚立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":2894.096,"end":2894.616,"text":"謝謝來我們接下來請羅昭偉、羅明才、羅昭偉"},{"start":2927.368,"end":2949.884,"text":"謝謝主席在座各位出列席的官員大家早安大家好那麼有關廢除娛樂稅在財委會已經討論了好幾次大概朝野沒有人反對如果說有的話只是內容稍作"},{"start":2952.869,"end":2965.606,"text":"那原則上、精神上還是要廢除不合時宜的娛樂稅大家都知道民國31年4月24日那時候的名稱叫做《宴席級娛樂稅法》"},{"start":2969.28,"end":2985.334,"text":"與時俱進,時代在改變。大家想想看,辦桌還有課稅來限制人民的集會、吃飯、歡樂的這個氣氛這是非常不合時宜的。所以我們希望說這個廢除娛樂稅的部分"},{"start":2987.284,"end":3004.636,"text":"多多來照顧年輕人、文創工作者以及列入奧運項目的高爾夫球運動有多少的選手在下場練習的時候有多少的運動民眾"},{"start":3006.468,"end":3026.699,"text":"去運動的時候,我的天啊,原來去打高爾夫球的時候還被課稅,我們鼓勵都來不及了還有一個就是現在啊,那個工商社會,很多年輕人跟家人跟小朋友相聚的時間啊其實也不多,他們就是去遊樂場"},{"start":3029.691,"end":3052.943,"text":"爸爸媽媽帶小朋友去遊樂區、遊樂園區去欣賞、去觀看結果還要被課稅所以這個是不合時宜的那財政部主管機關總是覺得說哎呀這個他的替代財源16到18億每年的稅收超徵這幾年都超過3700億超過5000多億這個算起來是"},{"start":3058.936,"end":3075.272,"text":"一點點而已啊九牛一毛所以請財政部啊能從善如流多多來支持娛樂稅的修正、修改或者是廢除另外有關保險法146條修改的問題喔怎麼講都對啦"},{"start":3079.505,"end":3106.886,"text":"如果從業者保護的權益來看哇 這個好不容易每年可以獲得那麼多的資金那麼多的保障那當然要支持啊可是本席從台灣年輕人未來發展來思考的時候想想看如果把6兆的資金可以留在台灣投資台灣"},{"start":3108.564,"end":3114.913,"text":"未來的台灣年輕人會做怎麼樣一個環境的影響具體的改變。"},{"start":3116.55,"end":3142.95,"text":"所以本席也在這裡奉勸少部分的人不要每次都是思考現實的利益為什麼不想想把這個資金匯回台灣以後循序漸進的來做來多多做一點有利台灣發展的公共建設每次都講說台灣沒有投資機會真的沒有嗎?"},{"start":3144.147,"end":3173.502,"text":"如果沒有的話台積電就不會有75%以上都是外資在投資時過境遷啊想想看如果10年前146條就修正的時候台積電那時候才兩三百塊保險公司不能買嗎買了反而賺大錢我不是說主管機關講的一定不對但是本席上過很多次的當"},{"start":3175.148,"end":3204.58,"text":"在幾年前我問中央銀行總裁楊金榮楊總裁我說全世界都在重視比特幣央行要不要多少投資一點央行給大家的答覆說那是高風險千萬不要上當千萬不要去買結果那時候很多年輕人他說央行總裁說不能買通通沒有買那時候一個比特幣是大概6000塊美金現在漲到美金6萬以上"},{"start":3206.155,"end":3230.407,"text":"不是誰講的一定對啦大家多多思考看看希望146條的精神還是要把錢留在台灣投資台灣照顧年輕人讓年輕人長期以來的薪資不斷低薪資的情況可以獲得改善謝謝謝謝羅昭偉來繼續來請黃宏威黃委員"},{"start":3237.366,"end":3237.566,"text":"主席"},{"start":3246.633,"end":3259.824,"text":"好 謝謝那個招集人主席以及我們現場包含我們各位官員還有我們各位委員那今天我主要是提出保險法第177條的條文修正案這個主要呢是要保障我們保險從業人員他們的權益那麼長期以來其實大家也知道"},{"start":3272.435,"end":3293.101,"text":"在保險從業人員他們的職場環境事實上他們是處於一個極為弱勢的那麼這幾十年來我們的保險業的從業人員他們事實上很多都是假承攬真僱傭的一個"},{"start":3294.417,"end":3297.861,"text":"﹚立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會"},{"start":3312.339,"end":3335.256,"text":"那麼我們的工會事實上也一直希望在立法院能夠為他們的權益做一些修正。那事實上早在這一屆的立法院之前,包含跨黨派的立法委員都提出相同的修正案。但是非常可惜的,"},{"start":3335.856,"end":3343.12,"text":"因為金管會一直都拒絕一直態度消極而沒有辦法完成修法我們希望能夠透過我們金融機構的主管機關跟勞動部共同的努力下可以讓我們廣大的保險業務員"},{"start":3357.449,"end":3379.042,"text":"他們的一個就業的環境不要因此而被剝削不要因此而得到不公平的待遇所以在這一次我們也可以看到其實除了我之外我也看到是跨黨派的委員也都提出相關的修法"},{"start":3379.702,"end":3404.019,"text":"所以在這邊還是希望我們的金管會能夠從善如流而不是還是用過去的方式用一個拒絕不配合的一個態度我看到這次又是用這樣的方式如果金管會認為他只是主管保險公司跟消費者之間的關係但是"},{"start":3406.36,"end":3422.175,"text":"保險業務員的管理規則也是你金管會在定的啊所以金管會身為主管機關不要把這些保險業務員他們應該得到合理的待遇"},{"start":3422.756,"end":3423.297,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":3440.734,"end":3461.048,"text":"我衷心希望在我們這次委員會能夠讓保險法第177條的條文修正能夠過去都未盡其功我希望這次我們能夠成功的來幫我們的廣大的保險業務員去爭取到他們合理的權益以上謝謝好謝謝王宏威王委員"},{"start":3467.296,"end":3473.995,"text":"接著請財政部莊部長回應委員提案的內容請先短即刻"},{"start":3480.39,"end":3498.167,"text":"主席各位委員先進大家好今天貴委員會審查大院各委員所擬具的娛樂稅法第二條跟第五條的修正條文草案以及廢止娛樂稅法等6案緊究委員的提案我們做一個簡要的說明敬請指教第一個有關"},{"start":3499.588,"end":3503.75,"text":"娛樂稅法的第二條跟第五條是規範娛樂稅的課稅項目還有它的稅率現在的娛樂稅的課稅項目包括了電影、歌唱、說書、舞蹈等等以及夜總會各種表演還有競技比賽還有高爾夫球場等其他提供娛樂設施供能娛樂者那麼委員提案刪除部分的課稅項目它的稅率如我們在我們的書面報告裡面所提的所羅列的第二個"},{"start":3528.062,"end":3533.246,"text":"對於黃委員19人及我們羅明才委員16人有提案廢止娛樂稅那我們這邊將做一個說明娛樂稅是地方政府重要的財源還不宜廢止而且部分的課稅項目可以檢討我們會通盤的審慎研議因為根據財政收支劃分法第12條的規定娛樂稅是屬於直轄市及縣市稅"},{"start":3551.38,"end":3556.785,"text":"現應該已在鄉鎮市收起的收入全部要給鄉鎮市來支援這個地方各項建設及公共服務以112年為例的話娛樂稅全年的稅收大約是新台幣18.9億元其中"},{"start":3567.935,"end":3574.459,"text":"高爾夫球場稅收約4.2億元、藝文活動及各項競技比賽稅收約2.5億元其他提供娛樂設施供人、娛樂者稅收約2億元是鄉鎮市主要的財源之一本部就娛樂稅稅制的檢討也在去年8月邀集了地方政府及相關部會開會、研商相關的結論如下第一個,娛樂稅是鄉鎮市的重要財源"},{"start":3597.974,"end":3611.934,"text":"是為了避免影響地方的建設還有發展還是不宜廢止的。第二個考量稅收金額微小激增成本的效益還有經濟社會改變的因素現行部分的課稅項目及法定稅率的上限可以檢討以及調降。"},{"start":3614.366,"end":3641.074,"text":"第三個可以考量授權地方政府看是他們的經濟發展需要特定政策的目的還有可以停徵部分娛樂稅的課稅項目來兼顧租稅公平以及地方的財政中上娛樂稅是地方的重要財源而且經洽行政院主計總處經濟部教育部以及文化部都表示沒有適合的彌補財源的方式那麼為了保留地方自籌財源還有財政自主的空間"},{"start":3644.235,"end":3664.487,"text":"避免影響到地方建設發展我們宜尊重地方政府的意見至於娛樂稅稅制的修正本部將會參與上述的會議結論根據的收集意見、審慎的研議來兼顧租稅公平以及地方財政以上說明敬請各位委員指教謝謝好 謝謝接著請金管會黃天墨黃主委回應委員提案內容"},{"start":3681.952,"end":3709.128,"text":"主席、各位委員先進。大家好。今天陳貴委員會邀請就大院委員羅明才等17人擬具《保險法》第146條及第4條文修正草案案台灣民眾黨黨團委員蔡易宇等19人、委員王洪輝等16人分別擬具《保險法》第177條條文修正草案的4案報告。僅提供本會意見如上。"},{"start":3711.021,"end":3727.812,"text":"有關委員羅明才等17人擬具了《保險法》146-4條文修正草案一事。我想保險資金提高的國外投資提高的原因有之一,主要是因為保險資金來自於保護的保費。"},{"start":3729.673,"end":3754.193,"text":"但是因為保險契約通常是長年期契約所以為了要履行對保護保險契約責任的承諾基本上它的資產配置就是資金的運用的標底必須是以投資長期而且固定收益的商品來符合資產負債存續期間匹配的原則那麼資金運用的成果也是直接維護了保護權益跟保險業的清償能力"},{"start":3755.589,"end":3756.75,"text":"﹚立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會"},{"start":3779.326,"end":3781.849,"text":"徐富癸等19人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人分別提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":3800.919,"end":3822.228,"text":"那涉嫌資金目前投資國外大概有22.15兆,佔整個資金額69.37那扣除依保險法規定不進入國外投資的總額的外幣保單、國境版債券、保險相關事業、其他金主管機關核整的項目實際進入保險業的比例大概41.2"},{"start":3825.151,"end":3838.084,"text":"依照保險法規定加計國際版債券金額佔資金的總額是57025,所以是低於國外投資加國際版債券的上限。那投資的標題大概也是那種長天期的固定收益的債券"},{"start":3840.078,"end":3863.982,"text":"那就是反映整個受險業資金面需要跟負債匹配的這個特色那因為國內並沒有這麼樣大一個又廣又深的固定收益的市場所以必須要尋求在國外來做投資因為我們一向都是以能夠兼顧風險的情況之下能夠來適應保險業對國外投資的需求"},{"start":3866.072,"end":3875.496,"text":"那保險業國外投資的額度基本上第4頁大概都是過去從5到20到35到106年到96年我們修正144從35提高到45 訂立了國外投資管理辦法"},{"start":3884.81,"end":3897.757,"text":"但是這個雖然提到到45目前大概只有3、4家能符合45的比例而且整個的整個的審核必須經過內控內基跟投資風險等等的要求"},{"start":3900.049,"end":3921.089,"text":"另外我們也增訂了雖然是國外投資但不計入國外投資額度的項目這裡面包括外幣商品因為外幣商品本來就是以外幣計價所以這部分沒有計入第二就是當時在103、104為了配合國際版債券跟國外保險事業的相關的發展也不予計入"},{"start":3922.423,"end":3936.994,"text":"但是我們對於國際版債券的集中度和流動性風險都有設定一個上限就是保險資金的65.25另外我們先行對保險業國外投資採取差異化的管理就是如果是要提高到45的話"},{"start":3939.636,"end":3959.024,"text":"都要有相關的沒有重大處分、資本稅足率達250、信憑達AA-plus等級以及內控及封控跟量化等條件目前那只有4家受限公司符合這個規定那本會督促保險因落實國外投資風險控管的措施"},{"start":3962.697,"end":3975.547,"text":"也包括我們已就保險業從事國外相關的這些投資標題明定投資的項目、限額、投資資格條件、性平分款措施所以相對已經是相當的完備"},{"start":3977.23,"end":3996.141,"text":"另外至於說保險資金在其他方面運用目前已經可以透過有價證券、不動產跟專業運用投資國內的公共建設、五家二產業本會也會持續一方面導引資金投入國內的公共建設這裡面在第8頁簡單的報告"},{"start":3998.089,"end":4024.504,"text":"我們在105年、110年分別兩度修正保險法開放保險業可以投資公共社會社會福利事業的比例提高到三分之二讓保險業有控制權以提高保險業投資意願。111年1月發布了相關令是開放保險資金可以直接投資間接投過私募股權基金或參貸放款等投融資與六大核心戰略產業。111年6月24號也發布了相關的方案"},{"start":4028.595,"end":4039.102,"text":"在112年7月、去年7月25號發布了接軌第一代清償能力制度的過渡性措施也同意在15年過渡期間中前面115到119年5年間維持現行1.28的風險係數"},{"start":4047.25,"end":4074.342,"text":"第9月在112年12月又考慮國內外基礎建設風險釋出橫屏性也調降了保險業投資國內私募股權基金及創投事業的資本支出率。那截至112年抵止整個保險業資金運用在專案運用、公共建設等總共是5900億元。那如果說是要調降國外投資額度可能不利於保險市場資產負債的配置那"},{"start":4075.7,"end":4101.409,"text":"目前來講113年2月國內債券市場規模大概在10.9兆元如果修正國外投資上限到25的話可能會讓這個國外投資總線減少大概29大概9兆9.26兆元移回國內那麼國內的債券市場這種長天期跟固定收益的商品其實顯然無法吸納前開9.26兆的資金"},{"start":4103.65,"end":4130.077,"text":"如此不利保險資產負債的配置跟保護權益的維護同時也可能因為大量資金匯回國內後沒有足夠的標底可供投資而造成匯率等不利的影響所以以上報告就是保險院國外投資其實有它特別的背景已經採取了封管措施所以我們希望能夠建議維持現行保險法146之4的條文不予修正"},{"start":4131.417,"end":4150.248,"text":"至於保險法177條條文修正草案因為保險法有兩部分組成一是契約法一個是保險業法那基本上立法一直是要維護保險契約的權利義務關係跟保險業的監理措施來維護保護的權益跟市場的紀律所以保險業保險法"},{"start":4153.826,"end":4156.468,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":4174.722,"end":4191.907,"text":"所以我們保險法177條授權主管機關定定業務委員管理規則的立法背景也是基於前開的目的所述那例司法院在4-1-740號解釋也對這樣一個意旨就是相關的主管這個保險契約是依照民法及相關法律規定辦理"},{"start":4193.877,"end":4208.514,"text":"並沒有限制他勞務契約的屬性與契約內容,尤其在《序字740解釋理由書》第三段已經讚明了這基於司法制度的原則有契約形式及內容的選擇自由,其類型可能為僱傭、委任、承攬、居冤等。"},{"start":4210.526,"end":4233.659,"text":"所以基本上基於民法跟相關法令的範圍之內所以保險業務員的勞務契約是基本上基於締約意思決定來依照締約對象跟契約內容行訴雙方的權利義務關係所以這部分當依勞務契約的性質是用民法跟相關法令屬於勞動契約者的話應該優先適用勞基法跟勞動部有關勞動契約規定及針對保險業勞動關係的相關函式辦理"},{"start":4239.997,"end":4260.935,"text":"所以我們不認為保險177條要去做適度的修正。以上報告,謝謝。好,謝謝黃主委。開始詢答,沒有委員8加2,列席委員5分鐘,接著上午10點截止發言登記。"},{"start":4263.666,"end":4276.589,"text":"本次會議委員若有相關修正動議請禁送財政委員會議事人員收件以利後續審查程序。現在請林德福林委員質詢。謝謝,謝謝趙偉。"},{"start":4293.706,"end":4295.456,"text":"是不是請財政部莊部長請莊部長"},{"start":4302.119,"end":4330.749,"text":"委員好莊部長你好我想因為最近我看那個媒體新聞一直在披露就是有利民的網友在爆料公社上貼出說這個質疑準副總統蕭美琴透過外交部要求關路署免於這個屍酒的查驗那外交部財政部都協助辦理那外交部有做說明外交部有做說明駐外人員"},{"start":4332.034,"end":4358.756,"text":"任滿回國以後攜帶自用物品相關事宜均是依財政部的規定來辦理。財政部也回應說蕭美琴諷調回國申請要自用酒品的通關是經過審核符合規定申報進口除了一公升以外的免稅額外其他都是均因依法來課稅。"},{"start":4360.157,"end":4372.467,"text":"那個部長你正式的回應讓媒體知道因為齁你也秉促外界啊到底有沒有課稅除了一公升以外有沒有課稅我相信應該要說清楚講明白"},{"start":4374.687,"end":4390.194,"text":"謝謝委員這個酒進來輸入進來它超過一公升都要課稅不管是關稅、菸酒稅以及營業稅都要課稅那至於政府派駐到國外的人員比如說像蕭大使他"},{"start":4391.294,"end":4391.434,"text":"外交部行文給"},{"start":4409.504,"end":4433.466,"text":"財政部告訴他說這個蕭大使調回國內他自用的物品進入那其中有9的部分呢希望依相關規定辦理那依照相關規定辦理因為他是屬於自用那他可以雖然超過5公升他可以就那麼超過5公升但他就可以又是自用所以他就可以不需要超過5公升可以自用是不是第一個不是他是自用第一個前提是自用"},{"start":4433.806,"end":4438.173,"text":"五公升以內是可以不要申請進口業者許可執照是一般來說但是外交人員的話因為他是自用攜帶回國那所以他就可以不要申請那個進口酒類的一個"},{"start":4449.07,"end":4449.39,"text":"那有沒有交相關規定?那金融官有回應說"},{"start":4474.552,"end":4502.387,"text":"他這個查證以後並沒有來做一些申報目前因為就基隆觀來說目前還沒有通關的一個禁報運進口這樣的一個通關資料但是因為外交部是先行文給財政部告訴說有這個情形那也跟委員報告所有駐外人員都是循這個程序那光是112年就有55位外交人員回國的也都以程序來辦理所以並沒有任何的不同"},{"start":4502.887,"end":4526.864,"text":"其實我是認為 身為一個政府官員你更應該要依法行政 不管怎麼樣沒有特權的 我認為說該怎麼做就怎麼做是 這個部分也沒有任何特權 也都是依照相關規定來審核辦理我也希望如此 是的好 那我來請那個主委 那個黃主委請回 請黃主委"},{"start":4537.028,"end":4539.39,"text":"委員長應該還是國際情勢是主要因素之一是"},{"start":4564.648,"end":4571.733,"text":"這是受到國際影響?因為財政部次長阮清華表示台積電、ADR"},{"start":4574.206,"end":4577.068,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":4603.621,"end":4614.598,"text":"多重利空導致整個台股震盪往後是不是要推出救市的措施要看今晚會的看法您的看法勒"},{"start":4615.492,"end":4620.737,"text":"五二零新就任總統就職前,你認為台股有必要推出新的穩定股市措施嗎?有沒有必要?"},{"start":4641.203,"end":4658.075,"text":"我個人覺得以今天的股票的整個的趨勢我覺得再觀察吧因為其實現在已經兩萬點以上的行情了我想我們還不需要就是已經飆到很高了不是我覺得還不需要"},{"start":4659.437,"end":4671.69,"text":"這個時候就談什麼穩定措施那今晚會對台股大盤是不是要推出救市的措施要不要做一些防範是不是國安基金絕對到底要不要進場到時候"},{"start":4675.104,"end":4696.752,"text":"您的看法呢?我跟委員報告其實臺股在過去尤其大概在前年吧其實整個疫情的影響是有一些大波動的這個調整那那個時候當然我們有採取一些措施了但每次的情況不一樣我個人覺得我們一定都會有一些固定的維護穩定市場的措施在"},{"start":4697.392,"end":4706.46,"text":"但是什麼時候用、怎麼用、用的強度可能每次情況都不一樣,但現階段我不覺得要考慮到這些問題。"},{"start":4718.186,"end":4740.917,"text":"副長因為上個月初你在財委會啊被刑的時候表示景氣啊跟出口的表現息息相關那台灣的出口已經連續三個月是正成長顯示景氣已經從谷底回升而且平穩而且溫和的復甦那現在第一季已經過去了現在進入第二季上個禮拜"},{"start":4741.937,"end":4748.194,"text":"台股大跌那本席認為說台積電、華碩會對這個台股後市的發展恐怕有一些"},{"start":4749.215,"end":4774.345,"text":"也有些重大的影響那台積電總裁魏哲嘉對整體半導體市場的看法將邁入和緩的護書並且下修2024年這個全年全球半導體市場不含記憶體的展望也就是說景氣預測反應下修全球晶圓代工"},{"start":4775.418,"end":4781.181,"text":"產業的成長預測並且不記錄記憶體的半導體業的這些產值也從成長超過10%限縮到只剩10%那我請問部長,台積電對今年未來景氣是不是不看好?您的看法勒?"},{"start":4800.727,"end":4829.296,"text":"各位委員報告您剛剛所提到就是台積電它是因為智慧手機個人電腦還有車用市場的復甦不如預期所以它把今年的全球半導體市場就是不含記憶體這個部分的成長率由原來預估超過10%的部分降為10%但是縱使如此它仍然是兩位數的一個成長的一個情形那也比去年的一個衰減的趨勢來得好那以我們第一季的一個出口總值來看的話"},{"start":4830.436,"end":4837.82,"text":"是超過了一千億美元那這個也是歷年統計的新高而且年增達到12.9%所以整體來看我們的資通還有視聽產品的外銷仍然維持非常的一個強制所以說部長你認為台積電他們的看法對景氣的看法是過於保守是不是我不是這樣說我只是說從全面性的來看以我們的出口情況而且AI的一個需求仍然是非常強勁的"},{"start":4859.25,"end":4872.29,"text":"所以這個部分我們整體的來看我們的出口仍然是正向成長的部長因為準總統賴清德曾表示半導體是當前許多行業的基礎占台灣GDP的13.1%"},{"start":4874.733,"end":4894.374,"text":"那產值是全球的第二那未來不僅要維繫優勢更要強化外溢的效應讓半導體整個產業成為台灣用來敲動全球的一個關鍵支點那現在這個支點的領頭羊台積電對今年第二季以後的景氣預測"},{"start":4896.717,"end":4905.936,"text":"並不是說非常的看好那我請問部長按照台積電對今年未來半導體景氣看好的保守甚至於不看好的太陽啊"},{"start":4906.857,"end":4926.627,"text":"你認為這個準總統賴清德期待外遇效應會不會有連帶的負面的一些影響會不會跟委員報告台積電他對全球半導體市場的成長他是從超過10%而調整降為10%那事實上也是還有兩位數字的一個成長"},{"start":4927.327,"end":4951.023,"text":"所以說你認為應該不會是嗎?我們的出口其實還是蠻不錯而且我們在AI以及知通識聽產品的外銷依然強勁而且是我們的優勢是這樣喔?部長本席一直認為說台積電法收賄後帶給國內今年景氣互輸的期待恐怕有可能會門上一層的陰影雖然主計長說根據主計總署的經濟模型"},{"start":4954.665,"end":4955.526,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":4974.443,"end":4980.67,"text":"台積電營收產值相當於臺灣的GDP的7.94%超過整體半導體的產業一半請問部長這次台積電華碩會後對於前年GDP的預測你認為有沒有可能下修到3%以下"},{"start":4994.724,"end":4994.844,"text":"所以說你還是很樂觀謝謝"},{"start":5028.908,"end":5031.089,"text":"接著請吳秉瑞吳委員質詢主席麻煩請財政部莊部長請莊部長委員好部長好今天各個委員還有黨團提出這個娛樂稅法"},{"start":5053.732,"end":5078.744,"text":"那這個娛樂稅法它的基增單位因為它是地方稅嘛所以基增單位應該是各地的稅捐基增處而不是國稅局吧那如果這樣的話就是因為法令是我們中央制定所以才會來談這個問題可是這個有一個觀念喔這個中央政府跟地方政府是夥伴關係其實地方政府也有立法機關啊就是他們的議會啊"},{"start":5079.997,"end":5095.251,"text":"那你何不考量乾脆就在這裡把稅務基金法規定每一個地方政府縣市層級他們可以自行來決定當然你那個稅務的部分"},{"start":5096.65,"end":5097.09,"text":"我舉一個例子"},{"start":5112.813,"end":5139.251,"text":"有幾個縣市是沒有高爾夫球場的嘛那你又談高爾夫球場的這個是不是要排除在娛樂稅的範圍內那沒有高爾夫球場那不干他的事啊那有高爾夫球場很多的像我們新北市可能就不見得會贊成或許他有他自己的考量也不一定不過竟然中央政府跟地方政府是夥伴關係那地方政府因地制宜他有他適當的考量這應該是一個合理的規劃啊你覺得呢"},{"start":5140.549,"end":5147.555,"text":"是,委員說得很實這個娛樂稅是屬於地方稅那麼我們娛樂稅法裡面有規定的一個像第二條有相關的課稅項目然後第五條裡面有稅率的上限那我們也知道隨著經濟社會經濟的發展跟娛樂活動的一些多元化那我們當然也要考慮那所以這個部分財政部也邀請地方政府來開會那大致一的他們的意見是"},{"start":5167.273,"end":5168.253,"text":"問題是可以調整,你調整考慮了17年你連沒調整啊"},{"start":5193.838,"end":5217.334,"text":"另外,我們這次也考慮到是不是可以賦予地方政府一個權,也就是說他們因為他自己的政策目的或他們的一個經濟的發展,他可以對某一些的項目做聽證。我想這個部分大概有三個方向是這樣子,但是還沒有到完全一致,因為項目跟稅率的部分因為也都還沒有地方政府還沒有一個"},{"start":5218.015,"end":5229.651,"text":"更高的共識所以我們這個部分我們會跟繼續跟他們討論我的意思是說連項目跟最高稅率都可以讓他們自己去考慮我跟你講你總共才18億啊"},{"start":5230.885,"end":5247.782,"text":"如果依照現在那台灣現在的政府光六都絕對占大多數其他的縣市都是只有很小很小的比例有的縣市可能百萬甚至整個縣也才千萬所以你現在又因為大家的意見不一致"},{"start":5248.903,"end":5270.191,"text":"你檢討稅務跟項目你乾脆連那個稅率都下放嘛因為這個金額這麼的對中央政府來講小對地方政府來講可能他們有他們的考量那你何不就以夥伴關係來講我們只要中央說有一個娛樂稅你可以訂定那由地方自己來訂定"},{"start":5271.761,"end":5300.301,"text":"如果今天有一個地方政府我可以說現在這個地方政府的所長都是民選的啦你說他把那個稅務就是你的稅金增加很多不可能啦你要把那個稅率拉得很高事實上也不可能啦沒有人要跟自己開玩笑啦誰要跟自己的選票對抗啊所以你不用替他擔心這一些啦我是覺得這一件事情與其每一屆立法院我在這邊財政委員會已經第四屆了每一屆都吵這個事情"},{"start":5301.291,"end":5318.21,"text":"那我覺得我們真的不需要管那麼多啊你就乾脆讓地方政府去決定嘛地方政府也有立法機關啊他們可以立地方的單行法規啊我們只要說依照現在的規定地方政府可以訂定娛樂稅自己的稅者自己去管理嘛"},{"start":5319.025,"end":5347.95,"text":"那徵稅的機關也是稅金計政處也不是你國稅局也不是你管的啊所以你現在唯一的就是因為你只有管這個法律啊法令啊那法令你看啊你管法令這麼多的委員每一年新來的委員都不知道以前我們都談過欸這每一屆都談過啊我跟羅明才大概知道每一屆都有談啊結果每一屆都一直一直來一直來我覺得這不是辦法所以我建議你考慮看看啊好是委員的建議我們一定那裡"},{"start":5348.51,"end":5351.452,"text":"黃主委,第一個議題就是關於對外國投資的比例的限制其實這些保險公司如果為公司的利益計算,他都是以獲利"},{"start":5372.611,"end":5397.819,"text":"最大的原則嘛因為他的獲利就是全體保護的保障嘛他賺越多錢全體的保護越有保障對不對話說回來不得不的困難就是在台灣的債券市場台灣的投資市場在早年的時候已經到現在的演變使得我們那個龐大的資金台灣的資本投資市場無以消沒有辦法"},{"start":5399.087,"end":5426.084,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":5426.184,"end":5455.055,"text":"那有沒有可能除了政府的公債之外我說的長天期債券也不一定是只有政府公債嘛這個非常優質、非常好的公司發行的長天期債券也是有啊,外國也是有啊那為什麼我們台灣這部分不奉行呢?是我們債券的發行的部分這個正期舉行那邊控管得太嚴嗎?其實台灣跟美國來講很大的差別美國是以這個直接金融為主台灣大概就通常用銀行貸款就解決公司的資金需求"},{"start":5455.895,"end":5472.688,"text":"當然有一點當然跟財政部有關係但是我們並沒有多少提因為財政部對於公債有一個比例而且東航是以財政目的去發可是不同的政府有的時候不是以財政目的發他就是不斷的在發那這也是一種方式但是台灣我們尊重財政部他有他的政策了"},{"start":5473.368,"end":5491.015,"text":"我知道啊,因為台灣就是希望穩定,CPI不要高,所以通貨不能高。像美國那樣的國家,他動不動CPI有時候有好幾趴,所以他發行的債券長天期來講,長天期發行如果他遇到幾次的通膨,他發行的債券對他來講現在很有利啊,因為通膨會把那個獲利吃掉嘛。"},{"start":5493.456,"end":5515.833,"text":"因為台灣就是中央銀行也好政府也好很努力在控制物價所以我們的CPI通常都是控制在2左右也不希望借款太多對所以我們的債券市場就變得很波波可是你要知道喔回過頭來講有利就有弊喔你在外國的投資你這個避險的成本就變得很高啊像去年的這個授選的部分光避險成本一年就花掉台灣3700億元欸"},{"start":5517.814,"end":5517.834,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":5548.014,"end":5548.315,"text":"第2個問題就是關於177條"},{"start":5570.046,"end":5591.257,"text":"因為過去界定說這部分到底他是僱傭還是這個委員還是這個陳蘭甚至是居堅在大法官會議的解釋裡面講說這四種都有可能他都有不同的型態那如果全部都把他強制變成說這就是僱傭會有什麼樣的缺點"},{"start":5592.945,"end":5616.591,"text":"當然對業者來講他可能僱傭他的要求對業務員來講他的彈性可能會變得比較少那當然這裡面成本上可能僱傭有必須也許對一些業務員本身的福利啊保險可能有一些要求這也是簽署法的動作是不靈活啦因為有一些保險他可能幾個人組成了經紀人公司什麼東西你現在這些業務員全部都要變成僱傭"},{"start":5617.912,"end":5643.709,"text":"那大法官760號的解釋本身就講說這是僱傭呢?還是委員呢?還是承攬呢?還是居監?要視他們簽訂的契約每一個契約去認定那如果你已經被認定為是僱傭的話當然就有勞動基準法的適用但是如果你被定義為這個契約是居監或是是委任或是是承攬他當然就不適用勞動基準法那在法院"},{"start":5644.189,"end":5670.589,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":5672.489,"end":5674.329,"text":"接著請賴世寶賴委員謝謝主席請各位先進有請財政部的莊部長請莊部長旁邊關務署的啦還有國庫署的幫忙可以到旁邊去請各位署長就位謝謝委員好"},{"start":5701.577,"end":5710.263,"text":"部長早安剛才你回答領導委員的一些說明我想再請教你一下"},{"start":5712.031,"end":5735.689,"text":"你有沒有收到我現在放出來這張文外交部給你們的函有沒有收到3月15號發的有沒有收到這件公文是給我們的國庫署還有他們都有收到都收到了你們什麼時候回文給外交部回文給外交部的部分是由我們國庫署回文什麼時候回的"},{"start":5738.176,"end":5740.177,"text":"我們是也在3月15號回的。"},{"start":5753.341,"end":5754.282,"text":"免負菸酒競口業許可執照"},{"start":5771.241,"end":5784.237,"text":"就是 因為他是大使大使回國以後有一個相關的處理辦法第二個免辦理進口酒類衛生草案老實講"},{"start":5787.847,"end":5795.654,"text":"老實講 部長啊 你聽清楚喔這是外交部啊 幫你們訂的啊憑什麼外交部就是說 欸 這個駐外的大使回來他帶的酒 你們就可以免辦進口酒類衛生產業我知道你們是根據這個辦法 但這個辦法是外交部訂的財政部為什麼就變成是他的下屬單位呢"},{"start":5813.148,"end":5816.791,"text":"委員報告跟委員報告不是只有大使是政府派駐到國外的人的政府官員他回國的時候奉調回國的時候所攜帶的自用物品所以這個地方很重要一個就是自用的物品也不是只有大使而且這裡面我們要審核的就是說他是否去自用那數量要還合理的情況"},{"start":5843.449,"end":5844.79,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":5866.533,"end":5880.431,"text":"以這個數量來看您覺得他符合自用嗎?當然是不符合所以這個案子外交部他也附了相關的一個清單給我們看只有只是15公尺"},{"start":5881.232,"end":5882.713,"text":"您們是因為昨天下午整個新聞"},{"start":5903.032,"end":5904.293,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":5926.863,"end":5943.38,"text":"特別是根本就沒有在課稅啦!有在課稅有嗎?有!你寫幾個數字出來給我只要超過一公升都要課稅而且通關的程序依然是要經過一定的海關要查驗海關要查驗這一批貨現在到了沒有?這一批貨到了沒有?還沒還沒還沒有到啊各位!你就知道3月15號他"},{"start":5949.907,"end":5950.728,"text":"財政部與外交部爭相拍馬屁"},{"start":5967.256,"end":5969.358,"text":"昨天媒體討論你們還罵媒體咧 你們財政部發的主要長叫呂智慧"},{"start":5986.173,"end":5989.896,"text":"財政部真有說瞎話欸有關媒體報導前駐美國蕭大使美琴代施求進口要求免查驗並非事實啊你剛才回到剛剛是那一頁這頁已經有講了上面就是蕭大使你免查驗你就同意了啊你剛剛講的同意了啊啊怎麼"},{"start":6008.672,"end":6033.304,"text":"怎麼來看第二頁?怎麼你會發這個修文稿呢?並非事實!並非事實!為什麼不是事實呢?前面就在秀在那裡,怎麼不是事實呢?海關的通關查驗都要做。稅也要課。然後呢,只是說他在那個衛生,因為他是自用,所以進口酒類的衛生查驗,他依照相關的規定,所以不需要查驗。我覺得這個部分要把他講清楚。並非事實!財政部真言說瞎話,你再回到剛剛那一章。"},{"start":6039.107,"end":6046.632,"text":"禮民外交部的禮民法重點出來就是兩大重點免付營酒進口業許可執照"},{"start":6048.01,"end":6074.167,"text":"免辦理這個衛生查驗就免查驗來再回過來結果你們發文說媒體報導這個蕭美琴進口的要求免查驗阿就免查驗了阿你是依法就免查驗了阿對不對只是後來你補一個說我要課稅他還沒有談到稅你們公務文化沒有談到稅的問題只讓你們有一個站在註腳的地方"},{"start":6075.528,"end":6087.279,"text":"對,本來我就昨天有媒體問我,我就跟他說要看超過有沒有課稅,財政部一直沒有講,一直等到昨天晚才講,到晚上才發新聞稿啊,我就追蹤這個題目啊,對不對?早就可以講了啊,在中午就可以講,一直到晚上才講。"},{"start":6095.167,"end":6121.695,"text":"但我上次講你們時間拖很久所以我就是...所以...我們內部需要了解整個案子是怎樣啊我需要了解啊奇怪啊3月15號給你文你馬上就可以回啊哪怕人家媒體在問你的時候就要整個...這個東西這麼簡單的事情超過一公寸可是你講到這...閉嘴這個...對這我根本不敢講啊你看啊我根本不敢講啊我們在新聞稿裡面一定說明講得太晚啦"},{"start":6123.816,"end":6145.67,"text":"而且海賊還說並非事實還罵媒體喔!我就覺得很奇怪啊!正面說瞎話!你再回答他那一張!部長你看清楚喔!這個文外交部給你就是不要進口業的、菸酒進口業許個執照!不要做衛生產業酒類第三便利方形!分過來!結果你們"},{"start":6148.99,"end":6152.653,"text":"還罵媒體說這個並不是事實,這就是事實。你怎麼這樣講啊?我覺得跟委員報告,這個查驗齁,那因為一開始的時候是講說什麼特權啦、什麼私隱案,這個查驗...那你可以講特權不是這個事實啊!對不對?查驗就是這個事實啊!這個事實不是事實,然後查驗的部分,海關的查驗是一定要做的。"},{"start":6171.807,"end":6174.709,"text":"這句話你這句話本不好啦這句話感覺就是森鄉拍馬屁啊這句話說啥話來第二個回到今天的題目喔娛樂稅"},{"start":6195.836,"end":6217.412,"text":"所以我覺得莊部長當然你連任部長其實你不用那麼擔心啦短時間不會被換掉啦不必爭相攀耳壁啦這個娛樂稅每年課不到21老實講主席提出的訴求是有他一定的道理你知道基層正本多少"},{"start":6219.131,"end":6222.052,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":6235.836,"end":6251.331,"text":"其他的縣市都要克啊他們都要專門人在服事這個所以老實講主席主張的廢除沒什麼不對啊但是地方財源啊地方需要錢啊這個20億不到19億左右財政部補貼"},{"start":6255.455,"end":6269.304,"text":"專款補貼不可能統統被赦款財政部專款給19億然後呢這個就是給地方政府這個娛樂稅我相信每一個地方政府都鼓掌說總部長英明你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":6270.771,"end":6287.805,"text":"委員對於這個是不是廢紙財政部有邀請過地方政府來開會那地方政府其實基本上他們基於財政自主他們基於財政自主而且對鄉鎮來說是個非常重要的財源所以他們並不贊成廢紙還是你告訴我我問了幾家現在今天有來的好幾位的長官他們都說我的主張他們比較贊成他們都廢掉但這個錢財政部出"},{"start":6298.949,"end":6326.876,"text":"財政部出這個錢19億你怎麼出不起呢請問你一年稅收有多少當然我們的稅收中央的稅收是有我們的整體稅收大概是以兩兆多兩兆多啊那你就負擔負擔19億那沒啥利是不是我覺得對地方政府來說他們還是需要財政財政的自主權還是需要他們在他們自己身上或者另外學者要講啊不然就是讓地方自己去立這個法你這個法不要管了"},{"start":6327.676,"end":6355.843,"text":"當然我們也考慮到一個地方政府可以﹖第一個稅率本身他們自己可以訂稅率然後這一項目的部分我們如果說我們也可以賦予地方政府來做他自己做彈性的一個﹖我覺得不僅僅是娛樂稅了很多稅都應該啊讓地方能夠自主盡量自主吧不要管人家管錢然後現在來講那個財化法你們又抓在手上"},{"start":6357.764,"end":6369.451,"text":"請問妳的部長,妳知不知道有一個人叫李樹田,妳聽過吧?當然是我們前部長。是啊是啊。他在任內啊,割了一塊漏960萬億要給地方政府採劃法。請問妳準備要割多少給地方政府?"},{"start":6374.176,"end":6374.876,"text":"我們這是推啦!其實我們要的是垂直!"},{"start":6394.855,"end":6420.86,"text":"你要挖一塊給地方政府地方政府去分好不好這個我們再找時間談那個最後一個請那個黃主委一起來好不好我們兩位很簡單的一個小題目2021年到2018年那個中部長也在喔部長也在華南銀行洗錢案被控然後最近才判決罰了在香港分堂喔罰了3600萬來金王王你態度怎麼樣"},{"start":6423.903,"end":6442.112,"text":"這案子我們全程都有掌握,包括因為他不是真正有犯洗錢,而是說在洗錢防治的程序上對於警示的帳戶他沒有做到金管局要求的處理的程序,這個部分而且都已經有委外找顧問公司去改善了。"},{"start":6443.086,"end":6464.137,"text":"所以是法尊的問題吧?是法尊的問題,不是真正有commit的那個Anti-Poliglanti的問題。好,那個,莊部長,莊部長,華南銀行是你管的,你要不要講兩句?這個事情我們都知道,因為華南銀行都跟我們說了,那這個部分事實上是107年以前的事情,而且是華南銀行的香港分行主動跟香港的金管局去"},{"start":6465.357,"end":6484.342,"text":"告訴他們說之前有這樣的一個警示帳戶的問題出了很大的一些案件那事實上這個部分呢香港的金管局受理以後他們之後其實金管那個香港分行他們在洗錢的防治或者是知恐的這個部分都做了相當多的改善也經過顧問公司做的過驗證是有效性的改善所以這個部分是107年以前而且他們主動報告"},{"start":6490.863,"end":6491.483,"text":"王世堅、王委員"},{"start":6517.529,"end":6521.77,"text":"財政部財政部長莊貴昌財政部長莊貴昌財政部長莊貴昌財政部長莊貴昌財政部長莊貴昌財政部長"},{"start":6546.509,"end":6572.158,"text":"刪除的這一個部分那我看到你的態度那麼就我的態度要我過去我就會送你個十字架這個十字架橫批就是稅收直批就是國產那你所有答覆還有你的肢體語言就是說誰都休想搶走十字架你是這樣子的心態喔那這是對的這是好事喔"},{"start":6575.56,"end":6598.08,"text":"我認為我們國家有你這樣子能夠守住我們國產這樣的好部長是正面的啦這是國家有幸不過這個十字架上面稅收這個十字架上面的一些污點你總是要把它去掉啊比方說娛樂稅不是嗎"},{"start":6600.288,"end":6624.476,"text":"這些不合時宜的稅制剛才講過好多它的不合時宜比如說娛樂稅我再講一些它荒唐的地方現在我們民間為了避這些娛樂稅因為太繁複了這很莫名其妙的我舉幾個例子啦有樂團的餐酒館那要課娛樂稅他們就把它改成播音樂的餐廳"},{"start":6626.294,"end":6634.041,"text":"那脫口秀表演的地方把它改成叫做好笑的演講這個時候都很奇怪就是改了名字喔脫口秀要靠娛樂稅好笑的演講不必好夾娃娃機要娛樂稅他們改成選物販賣機不用"},{"start":6652.312,"end":6677.125,"text":"你看 你上有政策民眾下有對策日月潭的遊艇 啊呀 這個是娛樂設施 你把它課娛樂稅欸 我們台鐵的觀光列車 不必台鐵的觀光列車 我們說這個是交通工具 所以不必娛樂稅觀光都寫上去了喔 你看看"},{"start":6678.691,"end":6706.805,"text":"所以我認為這樣子是已經到了荒唐的地步而且你講的總金額其實不大我們一再講16億到18億那你說這個是地方他們重要的稅收全國22縣市這16到18億平均下來大概都不到1億元但是為了徵收他們要耗費大筆的人力資源"},{"start":6708.291,"end":6732.777,"text":"所以對他們說很傷腦筋啊16到18億對我們中央政府而言我如果我們中央政府這麼體恤地方政府的話大筆一揮嘛我們那補助款隨便幾筆隨便一揮都不止16到18億而且是總額喔總額所以我認為這一個部分那個部長是不是你要特別"},{"start":6733.677,"end":6756.51,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6756.824,"end":6775.261,"text":"新的綠色稅制比方說能源稅、環境稅這才符合嘛你看喔在奧運奧運會所有運動項目裡面只有高爾夫在全世界被我們台灣我們國家的政府來苛徵娛樂稅"},{"start":6779.06,"end":6795.245,"text":"這是很荒唐的事情啊那推動綠色稅制就你講的嘛欸替代財源多啦很多我們可以來找的嘛比如說我們交通部課這個棄燃稅隨車徵收這一些還有我們"},{"start":6796.625,"end":6814.631,"text":"財政部的汽機車貨物稅這些都應該環境署空污費那個環境部空污費土壤污染費等等這些都是嘛我們應該另外一個方式財政部應該主動找我們這幾個部會來商量一下可不可以"},{"start":6816.305,"end":6819.267,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想第一個就是我們的稅當然是要與時俱進那娛樂稅這個部分當然如同剛剛委員所提的有一些項目啦或者是稅率啦或者基增成本都應該考慮所以我們今天也提出我們的書面報告也提出了不廢紙的"},{"start":6835.18,"end":6847.03,"text":"不廢止然後接下來項目考慮稅率的上限往下調整以及賦予地方政府的一個權限他可以去做停徵其實我們知道其實有相關的一些法律也有一些補助我們知道像文化藝術創新條例裡面對文化工作有表率"},{"start":6851.454,"end":6867.272,"text":"於委員所提的綠色稅制這個部分確實是未來我們這個部分我們其實現在也在收集國際間這樣的一個相關的稅的部分我們都一直在收集資料我們未來會在整個整體政策裡面去研議有關綠色的稅制那綠色稅制當然要涵蓋娛樂稅這個問題啊"},{"start":6871.657,"end":6893.146,"text":"談了不下20年啦 光17年前民國96年當時立法院做的決議 這個附帶決議就是說一年內要廢除娛樂稅結果97年立院改選啊 那之後財政部又不當一回事啦 所以就我剛剛就問你啊"},{"start":6894.073,"end":6911.928,"text":"我剛剛說17年來呀我們財政部做了哪一些努力針對娛樂稅該廢止沒有嘛你不廢止你說因為難尋找替代財源那這個替代財源到現在找了17年啦一個才不到20億的那個娛樂稅找了17年還找不到"},{"start":6923.738,"end":6952.085,"text":"這很怪嘛那至於我剛剛在提案說明裡面說文創那文創更是無辜嘛文創現在這整個產業的GDP占我們全國4.8個%捧業的工作人員達到2.4個%我們政府一方面鼓勵文創也設了文策院那也給大筆的資金來補助這些戲劇電影這都正面的啊"},{"start":6954.053,"end":6958.409,"text":"結果一方面補助另外一方面來跟他瞌睡"},{"start":6959.95,"end":6983.73,"text":"這很奇怪嘛一手補助另外一隻手來把錢拿走這很奇怪啦這基本上就違背政府一開始的美意所以我覺得這一個部分部長好不好你除了身上背的十字架以外那個你要用開放的心來看到時代的進步"},{"start":6985.21,"end":6985.931,"text":"主席,我請請管委黃主委"},{"start":7005.925,"end":7032.742,"text":"委員好這本來不是我的提案但是剛好有幾件你剛提到的剛好有幾件觸發的我先前有在質詢的啦就是說現在你針對我們立院現在這個提案要把授權海外投資這個比例45%降到25%齁這個部分那你有提到說不肯的原因你說因為"},{"start":7034.622,"end":7035.762,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議須經各黨團簽署不復"},{"start":7061.311,"end":7077.582,"text":"我們海外投資啊第一點海外投資先前啊這個彩雷不暴顯的也非常多啊就在去年啊富邦不是一腳踏入在海外的投資的部分"},{"start":7079.157,"end":7106.508,"text":"這個部分有匯率的風險有戰爭的風險啊去年富邦不是A角俄國戰爭這件事情歷歷在目所以也不見然全部在海外那麼大的金額就是對的但是應該下降多少要多少時間慢慢來引導這個確實是要從長計議那第二點就是說這些受險業啊"},{"start":7108.12,"end":7129.967,"text":"投資在我們國內公共建設的比例過低嘛我們常年一直呼籲受險資金應該大量的來投入我們的公共建設比如說我們現在各縣市臺北、台中、高雄、新北都在推動的捷運建設"},{"start":7131.567,"end":7158.567,"text":"結運建設不但我們中央政府亦助地方政府也配合款以外未來結運成型之後營運那是日日減載每天收乘客繳的運費那是很好的一個還款的來源台北是光一天220萬人次"},{"start":7162.708,"end":7184.943,"text":"對營運阿其他各縣市其他縣運現在也是營運都起色這是一項非常好的公共建設足以讓受選業來投資結果受選業沒有阿受選業這幾年到海外四處去投資只要高利率高利率的他都去"},{"start":7186.428,"end":7205.279,"text":"結果投入我們的公共建設你看從2019年到2022年本來平均都還有300億喔到2023年到去年雪崩四下滑受選頁投資我們本國公共建設只剩下112億112億"},{"start":7210.185,"end":7229.055,"text":"那個主委你很清楚嘛,109年到現在他可每一年他可運用授權力可運用的資金從28兆、30兆、31兆都大概維持在30兆左右。投入公共建設的比例啊,讚!"},{"start":7229.975,"end":7254.862,"text":"百分之零點一一啦去年如果只有一百一十二億的話是佔百分之零點零三萬分之三等於他不把我們國內的公共建設當一回事他不把政府對他們的呼籲引導當一回事嘛不是這樣嗎"},{"start":7256.974,"end":7257.094,"text":"同意!"},{"start":7257.094,"end":7257.134,"text":"都有!"},{"start":7273.883,"end":7279.349,"text":"我光講台北市現在正進行這三條非常重要的南環、北環、東環段工資上漲、物料上漲這個就差額440億這個440億對受險資金而言"},{"start":7291.041,"end":7318.678,"text":"可是問題是現在這些工程的發包單位都是寧可用編預算他們也有同意保險公司去投資我跟委員報告2016我當時就跟行政院建議航站第三航站可不可以由保險公司去進行2016年你有建議過我有提醒當時的行政院有說航站第三航站需要錢可不可以讓保險因為航站他有收那個那個有收費航站就是一個很好的例子啊"},{"start":7319.318,"end":7344.748,"text":"我覺得重點就是說是不是國內公共建設可以開放給保險業投資這個很重要當然可是大家都是用編預算來做希望受險資金可以大量的回來投資我們本國的公共建設這是我們需要的公共建設晚一天社會成本就增加一點不好意思主席我最後再提醒你一句這些受險業"},{"start":7346.618,"end":7374.187,"text":"你剛剛說海外資金利率高所以人家他去那邊我認為他不盡然是為了保護啦他跟保護講計算能夠多少讓你保護分紅的他是以我們國內的利率來算的每一個保險都是然後他自己要賺錢的賺他們營運階層錢的賺他公司錢的他自己就想辦法到海外去"},{"start":7375.239,"end":7395.464,"text":"如果他今天算的 如果他能夠把說我有多少的比例我要投資到國外這些高利率的地方去 我以這個來跟保護計算 那我們沒話講 他跟我們保護算的都是我們以我們國內利率為準"},{"start":7397.101,"end":7418.958,"text":"在國內講一套然後把資金拿到國外去而且國外除了高利率以外就我講的還會有一些曝險的因素有匯率啊現在還有戰爭啊等等的因素在不是嗎那賺保險公司要賺賠我們所有的保護存款保險大眾賠來賠你們大家他是這樣的心態嗎"},{"start":7425.221,"end":7426.902,"text":"郭國文、郭昭瑋財政部的莊部長"},{"start":7457.513,"end":7474.759,"text":"莊部長,你好。莊部長,今天是地球日。我想能源政策的關係,我們目前積極地在推動一些能源發展。推動能源發展的過程當中,我發現業者為了KPI,但是比較缺乏有一些自律的情況。"},{"start":7476.5,"end":7491.973,"text":"結果早就怎麼樣呢?造成有些是假養殖增重店的餘電共生的政策也有造成跟新辦計畫不符變成有一些非法的掩埋物等等"},{"start":7492.774,"end":7516.812,"text":"但是呢我們對於這些綠能政策的放款是非常的大方啊就我知道理解的部分就台銀本身到2023年年底受信的金額是高達4563億因為這是國家政策嘛就你所了解的我們目前八大公共行戶當中啊授予這些融資的這個貸款金額到底多少為什麼"},{"start":7517.532,"end":7540.148,"text":"因為ESG大聯盟是從我們國公營這邊開始嘛 對不對我們希望從金融業然後呢慢慢的去影響到我們放款的對象讓其他的這個行業也能夠達到這個ESG的一個落實可是在此同時呢我們目前發現了我們放款的對象當中呢有些人環境永續跟社會責任反而是衝突的"},{"start":7541.737,"end":7552.351,"text":"一邊呢你要追求環境永續你要推動這個綠能產業但是呢同時呢他在推動的過程當中卻違背社會責任這時候要怎麼處理金額有多少那你們怎麼處理"},{"start":7553.724,"end":7561.549,"text":"跟委員報告我們供股金融事業在投資在綠電還有再生能源產業的部分總共有400多件然後有2500億至於在光電的部分受信戶數大概有800多戶然後有456億這樣的一個金額當然在我們的不管是供股行戶在放貸的時候當然要審核相關的一個他們申請貸款的一些資料"},{"start":7581.842,"end":7584.325,"text":"這一點不是在審核的過程嗎?這個流程本席也清楚了部長謝謝你再一次說明但是我說"},{"start":7603.386,"end":7604.247,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":7625.928,"end":7649.015,"text":"可是20以下的他沒有需要處理這個永續發展報告書的情況底下有沒有可能有一個ESG的信用評比這個部分我已經有要求經濟部而經濟部目前也在建構當中預計最近之內會上網如果他上網的情況底下我們是不是可以由經濟部做一個他公佈的標準舉凡影響生態舉凡影響機油的生產"},{"start":7651.756,"end":7664.151,"text":"舉凡影響人民的一個生活所導致的這種結果你可以來要求這些販款單位這些壽星的單位來要求他來說明或者是停播或者說回款項有沒有可能"},{"start":7664.988,"end":7693.399,"text":"委員您提的這個非常好也就是說對ESG這個部分要怎麼樣落實要一個評比的一個標準對不對要一個大家一個共同認同的標準我覺得也許可以朝這個方向大家來努力是你們研究一下好不好就是說現在經濟部已經有建立一個標準出來而且是定期的公佈公開的一個平台就依照這個公開的平台或者呢有一個違反刑犯計畫的一個事實違反ESG的精神的時候你們應該進行後面的這個代後管理的處理啊可以嗎"},{"start":7694.579,"end":7716.449,"text":"為什麼我要求公共銀行?公共銀行已經有成立一個大聯盟了,你要做一個示範啊。對,我們已經有一個倡議平台,是。好,謝謝委員指教。這個部分之外,我就叫你剛剛回答有關於蕭大使回來自用的酒高達23瓶輸5公升,你先說5公升以上要課稅嘛對不對?"},{"start":7719.05,"end":7736.221,"text":"稅是一公升以上都要課稅?對,一公升以上都要課稅,然後一到五公升要課稅嘛好,那出現一個問題本席之前有就教於稅務署的部分也就是說我們免稅的金額從去年五月的時候我就質詢了就是總共才兩萬元已經高達"},{"start":7738.402,"end":7738.602,"text":"議員王世堅等"},{"start":7754.991,"end":7755.011,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":7786.072,"end":7802.473,"text":"但是酒的部分我們現在討論酒的部分現在一瓶在計算在免稅額裡頭嘛一公升免稅額但是通常那一瓶啦因為一清酒的為例的話大概720ml大概你應該挺多戴一瓶而已啦你戴第二瓶你就要瞌睡了嘛不是嗎是"},{"start":7803.334,"end":7828.934,"text":"所以現在就有民眾來跟我反映說他們每次出國都只能帶一瓶回來那通常不是菸、酒、藥品都會有受限嘛但是酒的部分通常是拿來做送禮的他想要自用這個送禮至少可以加個一瓶嘛這比較合理更何況你現在從兩萬五變成三萬五啦他可不可以有多買的空間有沒有可能隨之調整的可能?署長"},{"start":7829.875,"end":7833.58,"text":"國庫署的那麼嚴重嗎?你們再辦法以後就可以處理啦。國庫署來講一下"},{"start":7848.103,"end":7876.142,"text":"其實酒類的部分我們先前規定都是一瓶那未來如果要做調整還是要再研議你們內部研議一下啦一個月給本席答覆一下好不好能夠隨之這一個3萬5的這個部分來公布這個利多更好啦我只是要求加一瓶而已自用送禮兩箱禮加起來就兩瓶而已嘛不是嗎好不好我看羅昭偉很同意我的看法的樣子一直在笑"},{"start":7877.424,"end":7880.651,"text":"但是我接下來我想請教一下那兩位署長請回部長稍後一下我先請黃主委時間請暫停黃主委"},{"start":7890.351,"end":7915.58,"text":"主委好主委主委因為你最近對於本土的售銜業有進行一些監理寬容那我發現這個監理寬容有連鎖效應原本大家擔心的IFR 17原來好像是大魔王那現在感覺上好像有種大放送的感覺為什麼我發現IFR 4到現在為止有提出一個我們有關於責任準備金的部分"},{"start":7916.62,"end":7942.117,"text":"這責任準備金的部分針對利率的部分跟對照於IFR 17的部分已經變成有盈餘了開始有盈餘的現象然後之前是說缺口有900億然後業者就開始說是不是把這個盈餘可以動用到連同變成是說可以移軟到這個外匯準備金的頭頭上去但是外匯準備金上次我就交於署長的部分"},{"start":7944.319,"end":7965.206,"text":"局長跟我講說這個將來上限沒有調高可是我算一算上限雖然沒有調高可是你還是有一定的一個空間欸以國外投資的話佔將近七成嘛當然海外投資跟國際版上限的話大概65.25但是這個部分目前投資的金額大概18.35兆也就是大概大約是有57.5"},{"start":7966.707,"end":7984.535,"text":"那我距離上限的算一算都2.46兆雖然你上限沒有調高阿局長說上限沒有調高可是他會不會因此而造成這個資金的乾坤大挪移以至於呢我們這個保險基金呢跑到海外的比例會更加提高有沒有可能這個可能性"},{"start":7985.369,"end":8009.788,"text":"應該不會有這個問題,是不是請局長來說明?局長,這一點是本席擔心的啦。跟委員報告,應該不會,因為我們海外投資的上限是法令明定的。那現在主要是避險的部分,避險它有避險成本。那外匯價格準備金的這個主要是在那個平穩那個避險成本過高的問題,只有這個功能。"},{"start":8010.168,"end":8039.668,"text":"只是這個功能,所以移過去之後不會造成他們這個資金更加的嚴重?不會,它那個是因為現在是lock-in的,將來2026是以限時利率,因為現在利率高,所以會有保駕差額準備金,就折準今天保駕經濟的差額,保駕差額準備金就可以做,我10月12號研討會有報告,現在保險局也在跟公會討論,這部分可以做一些彈性運用。對,這邊可以有限時的利率嘛,那那個IFOR是不是一個比較相對固定利率嘛?"},{"start":8040.848,"end":8065.76,"text":"對,所以說會造成所謂的盈餘嘛不是盈餘,就是有一個差額啦有差額啦而且要看我們去訂定那個保駕金是用竹單還是群組我們都用比較彈性的方式讓業者可以產生一些差額差額,把這些差額來進行挪用那不影響保護權益啦當然,不影響保護權益啦那不是說挪用,是說可以做彈性運用可以部分支應到外匯價格變動準備金主委,因為時間上的關係,我再佔用一點點時間啦"},{"start":8069.062,"end":8094.077,"text":"因為我同意你剛剛回答王委員的說法確實上是沒有案源的問題啦我也認同你2016的時候第三行下的時候那個做法但是我在上一次的質詢的時候有要求4月29號的時候就是說國發那個國發會要召開一個平台會議這個平台會議的時候能不能大力建議一下因為多半的啊這個公部門啊都想要當業主啊"},{"start":8094.577,"end":8095.318,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復"},{"start":8113.698,"end":8133.533,"text":"主委的角色很重要希望把這個部分資金才可能回送回來台灣嘛否則的話那個召委他的說法他也是用心良苦45%要降到25%這個方法是很直接了當但是呢會產生一定的後遺症啦我認為是如此啦但是要漸進式的讓這個資金回來確實要有一些行政的作為啦"},{"start":8134.602,"end":8136.543,"text":"陳秀寳等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復"},{"start":8151.452,"end":8154.075,"text":"主委跟部長麻煩4月29號的時候好好慎思討論一下好不好?是 謝謝我們會積極去表達這個想法 謝謝委員好 謝謝"},{"start":8181.704,"end":8204.997,"text":"接著請李坤澄、李委員質詢那現場有李委員我們等一下是不是再請李燕秀委員質詢完就休息一下好謝謝主席我們先請這個財政部我們莊部長請莊部長"},{"start":8211.241,"end":8212.762,"text":"跟證因為現場顏寬恆委員在等菸委員發言完畢"},{"start":8218.825,"end":8243.463,"text":"這個 有兩份公文 請部長看一下那這個都是在這個今年的3月15號那一部 有一個公文是外交部喊給財政部的那有一個是財政部喊給外交部的那都是有關於這個我們 這個駐美國的這個肖前大使這個 諷調反國海運自用物品通關的事情那請問一下 這兩份公文是真的還假的"},{"start":8245.208,"end":8259.961,"text":"有這兩份公文有這兩份公文那如果這兩份公文為真的話那就要去查一下這兩份公文是什麼流出去的那這個是有一部分要去查那另外一個呢"},{"start":8261.36,"end":8283.551,"text":"另外一個就是說那我請教一下那整件事情這個被這個外界導向成說這個肖前大使有這個特權然後這個甚至呢這個在這個外面的這個網站上面還寫說他走私那請問一下這個我們財政部長那肖大使這件事情上面有沒有特權有沒有走私"},{"start":8284.172,"end":8303.753,"text":"一、沒有特權二、不是走私對那他是不是按照這個相關的規定來處理是的因為我們的國家政府派駐到國外的人員奉調回國的時候他攜帶的自用物品回來那外交部依例都會行文給財政部都會依例的所以在去年"},{"start":8304.053,"end":8323.2,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":8323.3,"end":8323.961,"text":"外交部的行文欄有附後面的清單"},{"start":8347.318,"end":8372.642,"text":"那附後面清單是大概是多少公升?清單裡面總共第一個是23坪然後15.1公升是,非常清楚,是好,那所以說按照規定的話他只要在按照相關的規定來申報然後就是可以不用有這個許可證那也可以不用這個查驗嘛是,但是稅還是依然超過1公升依然是要課關稅就是超過1公升的部分依然要課稅還是要課稅,對,對,對啊所以說什麼"},{"start":8375.643,"end":8401.91,"text":"目前看起來就是說肖大使第一個他要來做申報然後外交部來為你們財政部那財政部說按照相關規定可以那就是說比如說免查驗但是超過一公升的還是要報稅嘛還是要繳稅嘛而且在進口到海關的時候海關的查驗也都是按照他們海關查驗的相關規定來辦理的是好那肖大使的這一批貨進來了嗎沒有沒有目前沒有目前還沒有進來是是是好"},{"start":8402.45,"end":8428.631,"text":"所以說這個我也認為說是認知作戰的一種就是說第一個這個公文我不知道是怎麼出去的那第二個這個公文反而證實了說其實蕭大使他是有按照相關的規定來做申報的那可是呢因為他這個有一般民眾不知道他就把他轉換成說好像有什麼退權可以帶酒回來這個好像不用查驗那可是我們按照相關規定他本來就可以不用查驗啊"},{"start":8429.432,"end":8452.42,"text":"是,我們都按規定來處理的而且只要超過1公升,他還是要繳稅嘛對不對要繳稅,所有的稅,關稅、營業稅跟菸酒稅都要扣著那就是我想利用這個機會要澄清一下,不然今天我看這個有相關的媒體也在做類似的新聞當然你們有發新聞稿啦,我有看到有的,我們昨天就馬上發了那我認為說這個東西就是說,因為蕭大使未來是我們的副總統"},{"start":8453.14,"end":8473.357,"text":"那有關於在520之前相關這一種假說訊息會越來越多那我希望說這個相關的部會遇到這一種假說訊息還是要這個在第一時間要立刻來做澄清是我們會本於事實跟法令來做說明好謝謝部長那接下來我們請這個金管會還有黃主委現在請黃主委莊部長請回"},{"start":8476.783,"end":8496.799,"text":"主委好今天我們有關於《保險法》第177條的修正案修改的規定裡面就是說它的工作條件含承攬、委任、雇佣、勞動契約等等應該由主管機關會同勞動部共同訂定以維護廣大保險業務源之勞動權益"},{"start":8499.841,"end":8499.981,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":8513.516,"end":8530.943,"text":"有這個議題是定期都會有人提出來大家討論的對,然後呢我看是大概這個金管會或是說保險局這個態度都蠻一致的因為就去年我看去年這個怎麼講今年也是怎麼講態度是蠻一致的啦那我是覺得說那對於這個保險業務員來講"},{"start":8535.945,"end":8547.495,"text":"昨年開了這個公聽會,居住在這邊他們主要有三大陳情那三大陳情我再念一下那我看說這一年到底有沒有做什麼改變或是調整那等一下我請這個勞動部這個勞動關係師今天是副市長過來嗎?好來也請"},{"start":8553.759,"end":8563.843,"text":"保險業工會還有三大懲刑公司片面終止或修改與業務員的承攬契約承攬契約被終止後續期保費佣金也消失第三個是獎懲不公的問題如果保險業務員對於"},{"start":8574.771,"end":8576.392,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書 »:"},{"start":8602.026,"end":8602.788,"text":"還是我們先請這個勞動部先來講一下好了請勞動部"},{"start":8610.131,"end":8635.824,"text":"針對保險公司跟承染重驗人員的雇佣或委任相關的爭議其實勞動部為了要協助勞資雙方明確釐清到底是雇佣或委任然後避免假承染真雇佣我們其實有訂定一個勞動契約指導原則那明確有25項的指標如果勞務雙方對於相關雇佣或委任有相關的需要釐清的都有相關的行政指導可以參考"},{"start":8636.984,"end":8647.411,"text":"那我問一下局長好了就是說那現在雖然說這個勞動部有相關的行政指導那我請問一下我剛才講的三大曾經這個到現在有任何的改變嗎?"},{"start":8649.367,"end":8669.798,"text":"我跟委員報告一下就是片面修改勞務承攬契約的部分其實我們一直都有在幫工會跟授權公司的工會有做一些協商就那個契約內容有在討論那另外就是那個獎懲的部分其實業務員的獎懲其實是兩個部分一個就是公司內部有一個獎懲的委員會"},{"start":8676.841,"end":8702.146,"text":"那這個委員會裡面我們要求它業者就是說公司代表跟業務員代表要均衡那另外在工會裡面也有一個講成委員會也就是它這個是第二層的如果你在公司內部你覺得還是不公平就可以跟工會那工會的部分其實我們那個工會的工是公司的工嘛是不是公司的工但是但是它裡面喔"},{"start":8704.566,"end":8720.74,"text":"我們要求這個專家學者要占一部分然後業者代表跟業務員代表兩邊要一致也就是說他人數是相等的那這裡也有一些申訴的機制啊"},{"start":8721.26,"end":8748.508,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書 »:對,申訴的機制也是那個公司的工,那個工會來做處理吧,是不是?這個基本上是代表公司的啊,不是代表勞方的啊。但是裡面的那個組成我們讓它就是社會公正人士代表比較多一點,然後業者...你們組成齁,那我講說多少人數比例是佔多少勒?真正的人數比例我現在不是很記得,但是業者的代表一定要跟那個業務員代表兩個,如果他是兩個的話就..."},{"start":8749.744,"end":8750.846,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":8766.327,"end":8782.041,"text":"續期佣金的部分有一部分是遞延的有一部分是不是他的那個後面的服務報酬因為這個是他們早期的契約關係啦所以我們也請他們去釐清過但是因為牽涉到的是有些業務員同意"},{"start":8783.422,"end":8804.77,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8804.87,"end":8821.091,"text":"因為他這個是過去的簽約啦那業務員如果他並沒有共識的話這個事情我們比較不適合去介入他的失選企業對啊那如果有問題咧有問題又回到就是說我剛才講就是說又是由主要是由公司組成的公會來做處理嗎"},{"start":8821.912,"end":8823.613,"text":"我再請問一下勞動部,去年是3月份公聽會勞動部有五大建議"},{"start":8846.812,"end":8852.278,"text":"那我請問一下那到底有沒有建立一個勞資雙方的建立對話平台鼓勵勞資雙方簽團體協約有沒有啊"},{"start":8855.772,"end":8878.65,"text":"鼓勵勞資雙方簽團體協約是我們勞動部一直在努力的方向就還沒有做就對了我們是有相關的獎勵的這個措施那我們部裡面其實也對工會其實有維持持續對話的一個到部裡面拜訪我們也有直接做輔導他們如何協商就是我解釋就是去年3月份的這個工廳會這個勞動部的這個五大建議"},{"start":8883.274,"end":8912.335,"text":"我聽到現在為止有可能都還沒有落實那如果有落實的地方再請金管會給我相關的資料好不好好 謝謝謝謝主席我們會提供 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝接著請李燕秀李委員下一位嚴寬衡嚴委員請準備然後我們就休息一下好 是 謝謝召委我可以請財政部部長"},{"start":8913.131,"end":8914.412,"text":"請川副部長。委員好。部長好。我剛才看到你回應李昆城委員有關於臉書粉專上爆料公社出現的一個公文截圖指出我們的接下來520要上任蕭副總統3月赴美的行程,帶回來的相關的一些酒品。我先請教一下部長。"},{"start":8941.916,"end":8962.953,"text":"這三頁資料是不是正確的?有沒有哪裡是不正確的?跟委員報告有這個公文確實是外交部有給我們國庫署還有基隆官有這個公文這三頁資料我手上這三頁資料有沒有哪裡是錯誤的?我要確認一下"},{"start":8963.833,"end":8965.374,"text":"有這個公文是的"},{"start":8992.446,"end":9017.387,"text":"所以就沒有所謂日資作單問題這三頁是準確的好那也沒有順其委照的問題嘛對不對是啊我們是有這個公文啊對是有這個公文好那我就要請問外交部那我們到目前為止報導的內容可能有一點跟事實不符啦對不起您再說一次至於那個報導的內容是跟事實有不符那是有這個公文是好部長"},{"start":9019.23,"end":9041.495,"text":"目前外交部對外說他要跟相關機關協調調查那調查的內容是什麼?參與的有哪些單位?這個我不清楚那調查什麼?他現在在調查什麼?你們在調查什麼?我不知道他"},{"start":9043.613,"end":9058.315,"text":"這個部門外交部他在調查的事項我們並不清楚如果他需要調查那財政部是配合調查事項對啊他現在會同哪些單位調查你知不知道這個部我們並不清楚他一個人在說你們完全不清楚"},{"start":9059.976,"end":9082.341,"text":"因為外交部對外的新聞回應是說這個有操弄認知作戰的惡意外交部將協同相關機關協調調查那我就要了解到底調查的單位有哪些那這個公文是不是偽造顯然剛才從你回覆的沒有偽造的問題嘛我跟委員報告這個偽"},{"start":9083.601,"end":9084.922,"text":"我沒有這麼問你我沒有這麼問你喔好那是跟事實不合嘛所以我們"},{"start":9101.209,"end":9129.558,"text":"我絕對尊重駐外人員的辛勞這個相關的規定我也非常清楚他當然可以帶酒回來只要有申報他帶了也可以免進口酒類的衛生檢查這一次你剛才今天早上也看到說過去有55位外交人員有帶酒回來也有申報那大部分從你們這邊手邊的資料大部分帶回來的酒類大概都有多少公升大概帶回來幾瓶"},{"start":9131.179,"end":9150.736,"text":"呃 這個部分啊 因為我們手邊沒有 呃 你怎麼會沒有 今天早上你說可以回應其他領導副委員 因為說有55位人員 有55件 那但詳細的清澈的部分啊 我這邊手邊可能沒 我沒有來 誰可以回應我 誰可以回應我呃 是 呃 報告委員 那海關部分這 現在已經在清查了 你是關務署嘛 對不對 是 我關務署 是"},{"start":9152.087,"end":9176.645,"text":"來您回應我來過去55位大概自用都可以大概帶多少即便是免稅有或者是有繳稅一公升以下免繳一公升以上要繳都是自用大概過去這55位外交委員回台灣之後大概都帶多少酒回來跟委員報告初步清查是這樣子因為每個人的需求不一樣了所以從0到30瓶都有可能"},{"start":9178.101,"end":9203.555,"text":"有沒有超過50瓶、70瓶、80瓶的?什麼叫做自用?什麼是一個合理的自用?到目前大概看到最多的應該是40瓶啦。三、四十瓶左右這樣子。那代多少瓶?就是說自用的合理,但是三、四十瓶你們覺得可以接受?你到底公務署對於代多少酒是合理的?即便是自用,那代100瓶你們也覺得無所謂,只要繳稅都無所謂?"},{"start":9204.462,"end":9208.125,"text":"我的重點不在繳稅,就是說他自用可以帶回來繳稅也可以但是所謂的自用他帶200瓶回來也可以嗎?"},{"start":9231.542,"end":9254.449,"text":"這要個別去認定啦,個案去認定。這不是個案,這是我覺得你們對外要交代清楚。部長你了解我意思嗎?我知道您的意思。但200坪回來他即便繳稅,但200坪回來是不是合理?我覺得這件事情要交代清楚,什麼是一個適用合理的範疇可以帶回來。另外,"},{"start":9255.169,"end":9267.683,"text":"我觀察到這個我們準副總統帶回來的酒我倒是蠻訝異的就是說這個金車的我看一下金車的葛瑪蘭從台灣帶去再帶回來因為他現在還沒進關嘛對不對還沒有還沒有進關"},{"start":9272.708,"end":9279.416,"text":"最便宜的10塊錢的酒他也帶回來10塊錢申報10塊錢帶回來兩瓶加拿大的酒還有台灣帶去最貴的反而是葛瑪蘭兩瓶帶回來100塊美金從台灣帶去再帶回來700茂的"},{"start":9292.591,"end":9319.579,"text":"我蠻訝異的沒關係我覺得我尊重因為只要符合合法我都尊重但是我必須要提醒關務署我絕對尊重住外使節回來帶一些酒回來自用也合理但是到底多少量的自用多少公升的自用是一個合理的一百坪是不是合理兩百坪是不是合理難道繳稅都合理嗎這是我要問你的問題"},{"start":9320.879,"end":9346.238,"text":"那我也觀察到副總統帶回來這批酒有台灣帶去的再帶回來然後也有10塊錢的酒也勞動到我們副總統帶回來我看這些內容我蠻訝異的啦那但是我覺得還沒進口嘛還沒進到台灣還沒貨還沒到台灣嘛對不對是還沒有還沒有還沒有好那我們就好好的查喔因為我還有兩分鐘時間我還是要回到正題問一下我們今天177條"},{"start":9349.64,"end":9360.819,"text":"到底是承攬﹖噢對不起你請回部長我請問一下金管會的主委主委今天這個事情存在問題已經非常久我們"},{"start":9362.898,"end":9383.776,"text":"保險業者、保險的業務員在臺灣將近有三、四十萬個員工到底他算承攬還是僱傭的關係我相信每一個委員辦公室都有接受到陳情那長期以來他們都一直希望說勞動部的角色應該要在裡頭才對因為有時候"},{"start":9385.282,"end":9405.773,"text":"在契約關係裡面對他們的要求看起來保險業務員他上班很彈性跟一般的朝九晚五不太一樣有很多不同的彈性在但是有時候對他們的要求的強度跟高度其實都超過勞基法的相關的規範"},{"start":9406.974,"end":9422.739,"text":"所以我們才說到底為什麼不能有勞動部的角色在合約裡面因為這些保險業者跟這些業務員他們的合約其實內容不是每一個都一樣我知道他有分很多種"},{"start":9424.299,"end":9430.481,"text":"所以但是有時候為什麼我們長期希望說勞動部的角色要在裡頭因為他畢竟是勞工有時候對他們的要求事實上已經超過一些勞基法的要求包括對業務員的獎懲還有對於一些停止業務員招攬的行為還有註銷登記或不予登錄的行為還有撤銷登錄等等"},{"start":9447.165,"end":9458.131,"text":"其實這些都涉及到勞工的權益今天勞動部現場有人也在現場對不對時間先暫停時間暫停請勞動部勞動部同仁長期知道我非常關心勞基法所以這件事情涉及到40萬個勞工你個人覺得勞動部你覺得你的角色到底應不應該在裡頭"},{"start":9477.743,"end":9479.025,"text":"目前勞動部主管全國各行各業的勞動事務基本上有勞動契約關係的保險從業人員目前是受到我們所有勞動法令上面的規範"},{"start":9491.311,"end":9498.274,"text":"但是我們看到其實勞動部其實相關的權益剛才今天這麼多委員在問這些事情就是說我覺得保險業務員的相關的規範跟範疇裡面我覺得包括過去我們就可以看到包括旅行業者他們有僱用或指派這些導覽人員領隊等等"},{"start":9514.04,"end":9533.733,"text":"他們都有另外再要求是說契約內容不得違反交通部觀光局相關的公告契約而且有不得記載的事項在裡頭所以我才強調說今天不管金管會保險局的說法是什麼我更認為這牽涉到40萬保險業務員的相關的權益勞動權益在裡頭所以我覺得契約的內容你們應該要有角色在裡頭才對那個勞動部的同仁"},{"start":9545.155,"end":9545.516,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":9566.055,"end":9588.786,"text":"主委您了解我意思嗎?我們了解其實我跟您報告其實市局長過去這麼多年來一直跟勞動部一起合作那在相關兩個工會不同的工會的協調過程中也就是說你們今天相關兩個工會處理方法還沒有達到平衡點所以今天才有這麼多工會仍舊對於現在對於勞工的權益不斷的在澄清"},{"start":9589.346,"end":9615.18,"text":"所以也就是現在的做法是不是要去做調整的?有進展但是還有一些可能要再繼續再協調的這絕對不是進展177條的修法說明得非常清楚勞工的權益沒有放在跟資方沒有在天平上所以你們所謂剛才才會有委員講說這個工會是公司的工不是工人的工這個差距實在是太大我必須提醒經管會跟保險局謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":9620.765,"end":9637.695,"text":"接著請嚴寬衡、嚴偉文質詢嚴寬衡、嚴偉文質詢主席各位列席官員主席我想請財政部莊部長請莊部長"},{"start":9644.198,"end":9665.785,"text":"委員好部長好先恭喜部長來續任財政部的部長那我想請教部長上週財政委員會通過本期的臨時提案是一項便民的提案讓受天災地震的民眾書面審理的金額從15萬提高到30萬那財政部從4月18號也開始這項政策"},{"start":9669.506,"end":9684.974,"text":"同時也發信用稿表示各區國稅局為協助受災民眾快速取得激增機關核發的災害損失證明共同修訂提高個人災害損失書面審核金額為新台幣30萬如果申報金額在30萬以下民眾只要"},{"start":9689.557,"end":9714.962,"text":"於申報期限內填報個人災害損失申報表國稅局就會以書面審查不會再派員實地勘查申請災害損失的受理期限從1個月延長到3個月要先感謝部長有看到民眾受災後的不便也修訂了這項26年來從來沒有提高的金額請部長簡短的向民眾宣布一下這項好消息好不好"},{"start":9716.559,"end":9737.089,"text":"謝謝委員的提點跟提案我想這一次的災害地震的災害尤其在花蓮地區還有其他地區的一些民眾都受到一些財產上的損失當然也有部分的人民不小心身亡這個確實是讓大家都很痛心那我想在我們的稅捐機關對於這個受災的一個損失我們當然應該本著從寬從素從優的一個方式來做處理"},{"start":9744.993,"end":9755.96,"text":"因此對於在於書面審核的部分原來是規定15萬以下可以做書面審核以上就要現場勘查那這一次我們就把它提高到30萬災害損失在30萬以下都可以透過書面審核那相關的舉證我們也盡量給予簡化"},{"start":9761.852,"end":9790.708,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":9790.779,"end":9816.23,"text":"好的 謝謝部長部長今天審查娛樂稅法廢止案娛樂稅法是屬於特種消費稅與貨物稅、特種貨物及勞務稅及菸酒稅屬於屬性相同特種消費稅的課徵在已經有一般消費稅或商品及服務稅的存在下"},{"start":9817.672,"end":9821.185,"text":"難拖一頭牛被拖好幾層皮的一個負面評價"},{"start":9822.666,"end":9846.307,"text":"所以我是想要請教部長就是說多年來有很多位的立法委員在修法指出娛樂稅、貨物稅、印花稅這三項不合時宜的稅制應該予以廢除那前行政院長蘇貞昌當時也曾主動提示要廢除但是至今卻毫無進展那其中印花稅、娛樂稅一年的稅收"},{"start":9847.208,"end":9874.036,"text":"大約是170億元是地方政府非常重要的稅收來源那地方政府認為這不應該刪除當然地方政府的反對是因為中央政府如果能夠有相等的一個補足或者是一個刪除的部分來提供地方政府的一個相等的一個稅額那這樣的話其實地方政府是沒有反對的一個"},{"start":9876.616,"end":9903.846,"text":"議件我想要請教部長因為未來財政部還是莊部長你在帶領你在掌管那財政部會不會在520前將娛樂稅法廢止法律的廢止都必須要經過立法院統一那我想剛剛委員也提到了幾項賦稅第一個印花稅的部分其實一年大概收入有171那對地方政府來說是一個非常重要的一個裁員"},{"start":9905.216,"end":9926.623,"text":"我想這個部分已經說明所以他們也不贊同要廢止那至於娛樂今天我們討論的娛樂稅的部分一年大概差不多19億的一個收入那對地方來說尤其是在縣裡面的鄉鎮如果鄉鎮市收取的都是歸這個鄉鎮市那這個金額呢在中央也許看起來是這樣但是在地方來說它是一個非常重要的一個財源"},{"start":9927.603,"end":9950.075,"text":"同時,地方也需要有一個財政自主的一個空間。財政自主的空間,那並不是說我把它廢了,中央給予補助。那其實地方政府其實它要有一個財政自主,讓它可以有一個自主的空間。那然後呢,其實我們對於娛樂稅這件事情,我們也召集了地方政府來開會。那召集地方政府來開會,大家第一個就是"},{"start":9950.835,"end":9976.617,"text":"反對廢止。第二個也就是說在項目裡面因為隨著社會經濟的變化以及娛樂行為的越來越多元那項目可以調整就在第二條的部分項目可以調整至於第五條是規定的那個稅率的上限那稅率的上限其實目前來看他們都是沒有按照最高上限來說而是都是從低課那也許這也可以做一些調整我覺得這個部分大家都有一個這樣的一個看法"},{"start":9977.217,"end":9989.74,"text":"另外就是對於因為各地方政府他的政策目的也不同他的經濟發展情況也不同所以未來也是可以考量賦予地方政府他一個停征的一個權限那讓他們可以考慮他們實質的一個鼓勵的一些對象我想這個部分不廢止的情況下依然可以做一些彈性的調整"},{"start":9999.542,"end":10024.35,"text":"好部長從地方政府的角度來看櫻花稅跟娛樂稅那的部分大概如果停徵或者如果廢止那他的損失大概是平均大概3%啦大概3%那這個對於可能會對地方政府的財政會有一定的困難但是只要有確保在長期可以保本的情況之下中央只要願意拿出國稅的0.5%"},{"start":10026.932,"end":10036.788,"text":"國稅的0.5%就會來補足這一塊在確保財政上的一個保本所以這個部分部長你怎麼看?"},{"start":10038.162,"end":10060.939,"text":"當然以金額來看委員們都有提到那中央就給予補助就好但是對地方來說他仍然希望有財政自主的空間是不是那未來在經濟成長率還有物價上漲率統籌分類款的還有一般性補助款的部分從這邊來做一個補償做一個補助就可以解決這個問題那也避免說一個重複課稅的問題那讓這個"},{"start":10064.702,"end":10093.576,"text":"我們課稅的部分讓民眾認為說我被剝了好幾層皮中央統籌分配稅款的話它是就國稅的部分的稅目然後一定的比例去納入中央統籌分配稅款那目前中央統籌分配稅款在分配給地方政府的部分它是用一定的公式來做計算的不會是因如果說娛樂稅給它廢止的話它也不會在中央統籌分配稅款裡面去做一些調整是"},{"start":10094.329,"end":10094.349,"text":"黃竺偉"},{"start":10103.157,"end":10127.275,"text":"委員好 主委主委好保險法177條的修正主要是針對保險業務員的勞動權益那它攸關的不僅僅是保險業務員的權益更是保護的權益以及保障那同時能避免保險公司假承攬、真僱傭甚至於亂賣這個保險產品請問主委金管會有什麼修法的建議嗎"},{"start":10128.456,"end":10146.213,"text":"我們對於今天177條是持著希望能夠維持現況的一個立場因為在大法官的釋字7400號解釋對於這一塊是希望維持一個有關當事人自行跟公司議定的一個情況去發展"},{"start":10147.492,"end":10170.148,"text":"剛剛很多委員都提到因為保險業務員的權益有關全國40萬的勞工所以本席認為說要修訂除了保險法之外保險業務員管理規則也要同步修法保險業務員的勞動契約、教育訓練、獎審制度還有申訴管道以及有關勞動權益的部分"},{"start":10171.028,"end":10198.51,"text":"禁管會應該要會同勞動部來修訂所以各保險公司制定的這個獎懲辦法對業務員進行的管理不論是業績考核甚至於是納入勞動合約的部分也都假獎懲辦法來管理所以禁管會對於這種亂象你僅僅只是發函給各"},{"start":10200.051,"end":10222.179,"text":"緊請發函給這個保險公會、公司的公然後來進行這個道德勸說讓這個保險業務委員的這個承擔保險業務委員要承擔遭受不合理的一個管考的一個苦果這個主委我想剛剛很多委員都有提到這個問題那我覺得你要來正視這個問題那是不是說我們"},{"start":10225.443,"end":10232.377,"text":"來同意修法來對於我們之後的這些勞動權益跟勞動部來共同來制定這個辦法好不好"},{"start":10233.462,"end":10258.763,"text":"道遠也許有冒犯你的地方但是保險業務院管理規則的使用其實是對於業務員招攬客戶的一個可能的行為太陽對保護的權益影響所做的一個規範就是說勞務契約他跟公司是承攬僱傭這個坦白說我們有介入協調跟勞動部可是要入法可能跟我們金管會去對"},{"start":10259.804,"end":10260.605,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":10271.164,"end":10294.757,"text":"再請教主委那針對保險法第146條之四海外投資上限現在是45%那我有看到你們這個我們今天金管會的一個說明那你們也有分別提到說那在目前加計國際版的債券最高可達資金是65.25%"},{"start":10296.698,"end":10324.183,"text":"如果再加上外幣非投資型保單最高國外投資可能可以達到資金的87.75%到去年9月底若再加上國際版債券以及外幣保單在內受選業海外投資規模是22兆,超過22兆那相較於已經是這22兆占海外的一個投資規模占可運用資金70%"},{"start":10327.354,"end":10332.339,"text":"但是相較於受顯實際投資國內公建僅新台幣1300億,佔可用資金的0.38%。我想請教主委,22兆跟1300億這麼大的一個差異,如何鼓勵"},{"start":10345.814,"end":10358.787,"text":"獸行公司對針對國內的公建以及社福的公共設施的投資如何能夠吸引將這些資金引流回到我們國內"},{"start":10359.781,"end":10382.096,"text":"是,委員跟您報告我們在今天報告第八、第九頁都有把歷次我們調整支持的態度包括修法、調降風險係數還有跟跨部會的協調都有列在上面其實剛才也說過其實重點是這些需要公建的單位他可不可以不要編預算而能夠開放有保險業去投資那這個部分其實是按緣的問題我們當然會繼續鼓勵,謝謝"},{"start":10386.755,"end":10401.761,"text":"提供誘因提供誘因是一種方式但是如何讓受選業願意把資金回流到投資國內是我們要必須努力的是我們在努力中繼續加油謝謝謝謝委員謝謝休息五分鐘"},{"start":10804.423,"end":10817.272,"text":"繼續開會接著下一位質詢請賴會員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員賴委員�"},{"start":10833.98,"end":10835.048,"text":"以附設署送署長"},{"start":10840.216,"end":10864.438,"text":"部長好,署長好。我想這個針對的今天就是我們娛樂稅長期就是採取一個一鏡一針的一個態度。其實從第一次,那個娛樂稅的第一次公佈是在民國31年。那在31年開始以後這個過程裡頭只有一次的一個修法。"},{"start":10866.32,"end":10890.674,"text":"我想就是在這個今天我們討論的這個議題裡頭我想跟部長就是說做跟署長做一個探討其實在戒嚴時期老百姓因為我們政府擔心老百姓的一個過度的一個奢侈所以我們用抽稅的方式來就是降低民眾參與就是這些奢侈的一個活動的一個"},{"start":10892.535,"end":10914.687,"text":"但避免奢侈而爭的娛樂稅其實就是現在大部分的民眾的日常活動不管是這個運動比賽還是高爾夫球賽還是舞蹈表演看電影我想在這裡請教部長部長如果這個看電影是在法律的定義是一個奢侈的話你怎麼看待你平常看不看電影"},{"start":10916.195,"end":10919.919,"text":"委員現在娛樂稅是不是還是有奢侈這樣的一個定義倒是也沒有那娛樂稅我也跟委員報告您剛剛提了很多那我們也知道"},{"start":10933.846,"end":10946.199,"text":"除了社會經濟的一個轉化以及娛樂消遣的活動越來越多元那有一些項目是不是適合這一次也在我們去年在邀請各地方政府來開會的時候那也有討論過所以認為部分的課稅項目可以做一些調整"},{"start":10953.286,"end":10953.746,"text":"獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得獲得"},{"start":10983.232,"end":11003.51,"text":"內容有趣的一個演講 這個到底哪一個需要徵收?它的標準在哪裡?你脫口秀要徵這個稅 然後有趣的一個演講不徵 這個說實在的 如果說虛擬偶像的一個線上演唱會 那不徵 然後沒有實體空間的要徵 這個"},{"start":11005.939,"end":11028.855,"text":"此事上都非常地空洞。蔡依林的一個線上活動,他的線上演唱會扣不扣稅?那如果他到小忌憚裡頭去,那是絕對要扣稅。這個差別在哪裡?所以說舊時代的一個法令解釋新時代的一個表演的一個方式,我在這裡要跟部長跟署長講,就是說"},{"start":11030.896,"end":11032.216,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":11047.403,"end":11069.098,"text":"議論然後他也實際上就是說真的就是把韓國的這個電影推向了全世界你看他一來他可以推推動他國內的一個觀光然後再來就是說他還可以收海外這麼多的一個版權甚至他把國家的一個形象整體的一個帶動那到底這個文化事業我們要不要課他的稅"},{"start":11072.257,"end":11086.361,"text":"跟委員報告娛樂稅當然是具有娛樂性質的部分然後用事實來認定要不要課稅那您剛剛提到許多的文化事業那我們現在有一些相關的法律比如說文創法還有文化事業補助條例等等"},{"start":11092.003,"end":11114.357,"text":"這些都有一些補助的作用那所以我也跟委員說明就是就如同我剛剛說的就是我們未來呢我們希望我們也跟上次跟地方政府開會的時候大概有一個想法就是說賦予地方政府賦予地方政府有一些他可以他寄他的文化政策的目的或者因為他的他的一個鄉鎮的他的這個地區的一個特性他需要發展的一個項目那麼賦予他們一個停征的權限"},{"start":11117.679,"end":11117.999,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":11139.036,"end":11163.848,"text":" ️﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":11163.968,"end":11185.611,"text":"那在未來我們是不是會再看到他跟台灣的業者合作在台灣舉辦這個賽事呢?我想真正的一個問題就是說一、六歲的一個徵收是不是影響這個高爾夫球運動在台灣發展的一個最主要的一個原因?你想這麼大的一個國際賽事可是如果我們"},{"start":11186.452,"end":11187.252,"text":"委員長,你怎麼看待呢?"},{"start":11202.523,"end":11217.721,"text":"報告委員,像高爾夫球這樣的運動其實大家也都是蠻鼓勵的但是當然他使用的高爾夫球場也有一些環保團體有不同的意見但目前我們這種國際性的競賽過去也曾經來跟我們申請解免過稅額"},{"start":11219.142,"end":11219.162,"text":"〔記者註冊〕"},{"start":11238.459,"end":11257.284,"text":"一千多萬的一個減稅其實這個在我們整體國家的一個稅收其實非常非常的少那我們如果晃遠全世界我們再用全世界來看的話就是說我在請問署長就是說高稅率的北歐國家都有優惠的一個稅率了"},{"start":11257.844,"end":11279.118,"text":"所以我們是不是應該要匯儲呢那你們還在一直主張說要收稅那你看從所有北歐的一個國家他其實租稅負擔一向是最高的喔不管是荷蘭不管是就是整體這些北歐的國家那你們其實也非常的一個清楚就是說這個文化跟娛樂活動"},{"start":11280.339,"end":11281.54,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":11301.496,"end":11302.557,"text":"議員,因為娛樂稅本身它是地方稅,那在非直轄市的縣市這個稅它是屬於鄉鎮稅。"},{"start":11325.939,"end":11349.632,"text":"那深圳稅對他來講是一個非常重要的財源,也許我也不覺得金額不大,但對他來說就夠了。可是其實他的金額並不大,如果中央可以補助的話,那是不是我們就可以完整的把這一個問題來解決呢?每年收不到20億,你的統籌分配款就可以來補這些啊。我們看看,其實在六都裡頭還有其他的縣市裡頭,我們看得出來,"},{"start":11351.753,"end":11378.144,"text":"其實這一個收到的一個稅款是非常非常的少為什麼我們不要面對的這個問題呢甚至就是說部長我想這個稅收的一個占比這麼低成本多出了一個10倍那你還需要這麼多人來做這些事情不管就是你的印花稅你的這個所有的一個稅然後把它框在一塊要用這麼多的一個成本你覺得划得來嗎"},{"start":11379.845,"end":11398.782,"text":"委員就您這個上面的powerpoint在看出來就一塊錢大概它的成本是0.17%0.17我想這個部分要明確對用新北市嘛121年的預算嘛是是是是啊但是雖然金額不高但對地方政府來說它是一個重要的財源然後呢"},{"start":11399.202,"end":11400.583,"text":"﹚立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":11418.012,"end":11435.981,"text":" ️﹏﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":11436.261,"end":11437.001,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":11456.77,"end":11473.89,"text":"有沒有可能變多呢?所以這個我希望就是說你可以提出這樣的一個評估報告給本席然後評估就是聽證以後是不是會影響地方的自有財源那可以不可以用統籌這個第一條你說是不可以的嘛"},{"start":11474.29,"end":11475.03,"text":"接下來請王宏威、王委員質詢。"},{"start":11507.866,"end":11509.128,"text":"主席黃主委"},{"start":11520.746,"end":11541.735,"text":"主委今天針對這個保險法但是有兩個部分的修正其中一個就是有關於這個對保險業對國外投資的這個上限他是不是有下降的空間那麼我也看到你們的報告裡面呢也"},{"start":11542.815,"end":11549.861,"text":"寫了洋洋灑灑就是包含我們現在受險業的投資的標的還有在整個的歷史上過去為什麼逐步的去調高他對這個海外投資的上限不過我覺得我們今天討論這個問題其實主要有一個重點就是我們保險業的資金其實非常非常的多非常高"},{"start":11568.715,"end":11586.191,"text":"那當然在尤其前一陣子ETF發行的時候雖然現在很多他們都淨值事實上是虧損的那可是那個時候大家去封ETF也顯示出國內的投資的管道跟工具不足"},{"start":11587.192,"end":11614.694,"text":"但是我們如何去導引這樣子的一個公共性的資金就是保險業的資金能夠導向公共建設其實是在這一次條文修正它的一個希望的一個目標但是我也從你們的報告看到我覺得這個金額事實上讓我也覺得非常訝異在你們的報告裡面去提到我們受險業的資金在"},{"start":11615.675,"end":11616.216,"text":"公共及社會福利事業之投資金額"},{"start":11636.071,"end":11650.775,"text":"還有包含加計以不動場、地上權形式辦理的公共投資金額以及以有價證券方式投資公共建設的金額全部加起來也只有5900億"},{"start":11656.644,"end":11664.96,"text":"所以如果對照我們保險業目前實際去投資在公共建設不管他用什麼樣的形式"},{"start":11666.52,"end":11694.821,"text":"對照我們的資金的規模實在是九牛之一毛杯水車薪所以我想請教主委我看到你們對於這個條文你們還是持反對意見可是如何把受險業的資金保險業的資金導向公共建設顯然看起來它的空間非常非常非常非常我可以把它乘以10倍乘以100倍"},{"start":11696.162,"end":11708.551,"text":"非常之多。所以是過去沒有做嗎?還是到底出現什麼樣問題?為什麼保險院資金就是沒有辦法導入公共建設呢?"},{"start":11709.451,"end":11727.786,"text":"其實今天報告點了兩個重點第一個重點保險資金的運用不是錢投到哪裡就叫運用它的年期跟它的收益率要跟它的負債面保單要匹配那這部分先要確定這個標的有沒有辦法匹配期限夠不夠長第二個有沒有做努力"},{"start":11728.527,"end":11752.213,"text":"我們在第八、第九頁列了很多我們努力的地方提高它的控制的比例降低它的風險係數所以重點是有沒有足夠的案源然後這個案源提供的報酬率是不是符合保險業的期待好 所以你講到一個重點沒有案源它就無法去作為它的投資標的時間暫停一下我請一下我們的財政部部長請莊部長"},{"start":11758.126,"end":11778.729,"text":"委員好剛剛主委認為他有一個重點是有沒有第一個他有這個投資的這個時間因為保險業都是長期資金他長期資金他也要做長期投資還有他基本上他有沒有穩健的收益對不對所以案源不足那所以"},{"start":11779.83,"end":11797.667,"text":"我們如何增加這個案源而且呢可以符合我們的一個政策的目標我記得哈在前我忘了幾個禮拜前我們這邊也有一個專案報告我們才會專案報告當時花俊勤次長好那時候花俊勤次長"},{"start":11798.308,"end":11810.785,"text":"他提到了就是要把資金導入社宅社會住宅那麼呢可以討論發行綠色債券那麼部長也說這個可以做跨部會討論那麼部長"},{"start":11814.97,"end":11830.388,"text":"這就是剛才講的我們為什麼沒有辦法把保險業資金導入公共建設岸源不足那麼你們所講的社宅就是提供給社宅資金的綠色災艦你們現在到底進度為何"},{"start":11834.225,"end":11856.171,"text":"跟委員報告就我們來說公共建設加速的建設然後提供好的公共服務是大家所期待的那麼透過民間的資金來做這個建設應該的速度會加快所以我們也很希望保險業的資金能夠進入到公共建設所以我們在促參司的部分促參法的修正第一個我們擴大公共建設的一個範圍第二個部分呢"},{"start":11858.772,"end":11859.433,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復"},{"start":11881.493,"end":11909.01,"text":"所以他有一個穩定的資金收入第三個我們每年都會辦招商大會所以我們在今年會辦7月這就是釋出案源的方式所以你不承認案源不足嗎?案源的部分我們今年7月也每年都會辦公共建設那剛剛也提到就是說當然這個公共建設年期跟收入都有跟他的保單要相合其實老實講我覺得現在我們很多的公共建設資產力不足啦"},{"start":11909.85,"end":11934.879,"text":"所以沒有辦法成為案員不過這個是一個很大的問題我們現在很多自產率根本不足嘛我曾經提過像我們前瞻建設你前瞻建設裡面像我們做這個屏東棒球場那自產率極低無比低到100年之後才能夠回收它就沒有辦法成為一個穩定的案員但是我現在要問你的是這個是在前禮拜有講到的"},{"start":11935.859,"end":11963.616,"text":"就是比如說你新建社會住宅我認為新建社會住宅是可以導入保險業資金的它有自償性啊那麼這個綠色債券你們也許因為現在520馬上就到你留任現在內政部長不留任今晚會主委不留任也許你們這個時候也沒有辦法談所以我想請問一下這個講的比如說像以針對社會住宅的綠色債券你留任嘛你會推動嗎"},{"start":11965.338,"end":11993.477,"text":"跟我們報告社會住宅這個你所謂發行公債這個部分那因為涉及到住都中心的設置條例還有證券交易法規的一個釋法性這個部分我們會跟內政部再來做討論所以這個政策還是會繼續執行至少在於你因為我說內政部長4次要下台啦花慶群也不一定留下來啊我不管我覺得這個部分該做的工作還是要做都有延續性的那要研議的我們也持續會研議另外喔"},{"start":11993.957,"end":11996.118,"text":"時間關係剛才有很多委員談到娛樂稅當然你們的理由就是說因為娛樂稅是地方的稅源那地方對地方很重要有時候鄉鎮也很重要其實我有個具體建議也許你們去問問地方的這些政府"},{"start":12011.266,"end":12036.898,"text":"搞不好他們認為不重要啊只有你們在一直覺得搞不好他們認為說對他們來講事實上是可以只要能夠促進地方的這些產業的活動他可能帶來的商機更多他可能收入更多所以也許你們可以去問問地方政府否則只有你中央講重要重要這個錢收回來也不是你中央在用是地方在用可能搞不好地方政府真的覺得沒有那麼重要啦"},{"start":12037.958,"end":12043.699,"text":"好 那時間暫停 部長可以先請回那個主委先留下來"},{"start":12045.25,"end":12069.919,"text":"好,我要繼續談的就是剛講保險法另外的一個部分就是呢包含我還有其他的委員提到的保險法第177條的修正那剛才我在做提案說明的時候也有講我覺得這個過去其實討論的非常非常多也都有跨黨派的委員提出來"},{"start":12071.019,"end":12093.78,"text":"那麼對我們今晚會來講堅持的是今晚會管的是保險業管的是保險業對投資人保險業對消費者但是呢你覺得對員工的部分你把他推向說這個就是勞動部的事情這個是勞資雙方的事情今晚會是不用管的可是問題是我剛講保險"},{"start":12097.847,"end":12100.069,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":12117.802,"end":12140.461,"text":"他明明應該是僱傭但是呢他事實上是用承攬的方式然後呢用什麼用部分工時然後規定說你一個禮拜你必須一天你必須進來幾個小時一兩個小時給你這種部分工時的方式或者這些契約可以變來變去所以我認為啊"},{"start":12141.542,"end":12164.624,"text":"如果沒有穩定的勞資關係如果保險業務員是長期在不公平的勞務契約下在進行的那當然很難你看很多就是也許大家說哎就怪到保險業務員為了要他的這個佣金也好或者要他的業績也好就出現了反過來傷害投資人傷害"},{"start":12167.146,"end":12186.502,"text":"這些消費者的這些事件所以在金管會我們的其實我們的調整也是要求就是由我們的金管會主管機關會同勞動部來定之這個部分我真的不曉得為什麼主委金管會永遠要拒人於千里之外"},{"start":12189.297,"end":12213.097,"text":"這個議題很久了而且其實我們也在跟勞動部一起去協調兩個工會的一些起義也有一些進展包括那個有關賞罰的問題也建立了雙層的這種獨島的機制我們有在努力了但是這裡面真的牽涉到那顯然努力不夠嘛為什麼他們這麼多年他們都一直在爭取希望我們的金管會希望我們主管機關給這些業務員一點點關愛的眼神而你們卻不願意"},{"start":12216.365,"end":12217.466,"text":"接著請黃珊珊黃委員12點可以開放用時"},{"start":12253.019,"end":12274.716,"text":"請莊部長還有黃主委。請莊部長、黃主委。是,委員好。我想部長跟主委,其實我也是這一次第一次到立法院來,但是我看到今天財委會的兩個案子應該是在立法院都討論不知道多少年了,對吧?"},{"start":12275.506,"end":12275.786,"text":"一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、一、"},{"start":12299.324,"end":12309.849,"text":"娛樂稅討論多久了?跟委員報告娛樂稅確實有討論的時間然後但是呢我們其實在去年的時候邀請地方政府開會所以地方政府又不同意是嗎?第一個他們是反對廢止的這是第一個那第二個當然娛樂稅的部分項目隨著社會經濟發展的調還有娛樂項目的多元化項目是可以做一些調整就是要課娛樂稅的項目那第三個稅率的部分的上限也可以考慮調整"},{"start":12326.098,"end":12326.959,"text":"我問過說到底財政部檢討了多久從"},{"start":12345.888,"end":12372.522,"text":"蔡英文政府在2019年提過廢除印花稅那到娛樂稅到剛剛講可能還有貨物稅其實財政部一直都在檢討不是嗎這個部分我們會要尋求大家的一個共識重點是今天的娛樂稅在現在這樣的狀況下兩黨甚至三黨的大概都朝向廢除的立場所以我要問的是雖然"},{"start":12374.002,"end":12397.371,"text":"這個廢除它的金額總金額大概一年改18、9億占中央政府時中的金額比例112年大概比例只有占到0.05%其實算是非常小的錢但是對於地方政府的確是比大錢尤其是鄉鎮市政府所以我在意的是不管稅怎麼廢我希望知道的是有沒有替代財源部長你同意吧"},{"start":12398.52,"end":12426.95,"text":"當然您提的也是第一個替代財源第二個這是地方稅我們還是要尊重地方政府部長我今天知道您盡量可能會留任所以我想把這個責任也要交給您要廢除相關稅額我希望能夠幫地方政府多爭取替代稅源尤其是替代財源讓他們不至於因為稅制改革而受到影響這個是地方政府需要的另外就是在財化法的部分本席該表台灣民眾黨也提出了財化法的修正草案"},{"start":12427.43,"end":12449.489,"text":"我們也希望說不要影響到地方政府的財政自主但是同時能夠讓它分配比較公平這兩個事情應該拉在一起看包括今天的娛樂稅法部長這是我們很懇切的要求我們不希望在下一屆立法院再拿同樣的案子再出來討論一次這個案子已經很久了同樣的"},{"start":12451.612,"end":12478.746,"text":"剛剛講的這個娛樂稅廢止之後它的整個的影響其實廢你說大也很大少也很少但是畢竟已經21世紀了已經2024年了娛樂稅在2007年修正過到現在也十幾年沒修了而且藝人表演、球賽它還在收這種很奇怪的稅我覺得我們應該要重新檢討"},{"start":12480.168,"end":12504.873,"text":"不是只有單單說地方政府可以自主就可以了如果中華民國朝向一個稅制進步的地方我們應該把這些應該要做相關的檢討而不是單純說只是地方的稅源我們沒辦法處理另外去找到錢可能是財政部另外一個責任部長這是您的責任尤其是如果您留任的話這個我希望從總指軍到現在我們都希望看到"},{"start":12505.513,"end":12527.424,"text":"財政部對於稅制改革有一些積極的立場包括印花稅包括貨物稅所以部長我希望在這個案子不管立法院通不通過我希望財政部都能夠在一個月之內針對娛樂稅如果被廢除他的替代財源還有他的稅制改革我希望你們有一些態度跟立場可以嗎"},{"start":12532.308,"end":12545.119,"text":"主委,我們今天的題目是保險業務,剛剛很多委員都已經提過了。我想問一下,為什麼這個案子你也說很久了,那我們為什麼要在同一個地方討論同樣的題目,繼續這麼久?"},{"start":12548.809,"end":12566.22,"text":"律意上保險法是涵蓋企業法跟業務我們當初有保險業務院管理規則是對他招攬行為去做管理但是這個入法的目的﹖但是對於他跟勞動部去會同他們的相關的權利跟義務請勞動部跟你們一起溝通這樣有什麼困難嗎?"},{"start":12567.02,"end":12567.04,"text":"請勞動部"},{"start":12593.179,"end":12596.783,"text":"我們所有的勞工都應該是勞動部所保護的對象,不是嗎?"},{"start":12598.289,"end":12625.643,"text":"所以我們的各行各業都有不同的業別有不同的工作型態有不同的司法的契約各種狀況都有但是勞動部最基本的保障跟基本的勞動條件應該是勞動部所主管如果保險業務員他在目前為止有一部分可能是用勞基法有一部分他可能簽了合約也有混同合約有各種不同類型的合約勞動部真的不用管嗎"},{"start":12627.157,"end":12643.219,"text":"根委員報告就如同剛剛委員所述我們現在各行各業不同的產業可能依著他的產業有一些特殊或者管制必要有部分的工作者的確他會這個有別於勞動基準我們勞動部主管的是各行各業"},{"start":12643.699,"end":12670.012,"text":"今天這個法條的修正只有一個目標就是希望經管會去找勞動部討論討論修正修正我們沒有要經管會馬上改變你們所有管轄的內容我們只是在法條上面希望你們跟勞動部來會同討論、辦理、修正內容這個修法並沒有明確的要求但是經管會連跟勞動部討論都不願意啊主委"},{"start":12671.178,"end":12695.552,"text":"報告委員 這個可能不是事實 那個黃副司長我們過去很多跟兩個工人的工跟公司的工的工會都有在討論來來來主委那我就唸給你聽啦 這個修正條文很簡單啦177條保險業務員的資格取得登錄、撤銷或廢止登錄工作條件、教育訓練、懲處、申訴管道及其他攸關勞動權益事項之規則由主管機關會同勞動部定之"},{"start":12699.514,"end":12720.356,"text":"如此而已這個法授權希望勞動部門能夠來跟金管會協助協調有關保險業務員他的相關的權利跟義務這個並沒有去僭越剛講的大法官的解釋也沒有僭越你們所謂的契約自由的規定我的意思是他只是希望能夠讓勞動單位"},{"start":12721.897,"end":12747.273,"text":"能夠了解這個行業能夠提供他們的意見來會同你們修正所謂的管理規則這才是這個修法的主要的意志這個修法我不覺得有你剛剛講的那些困難啦我只是認為說連這麼簡單的修法都要完全抵抗我也不太明白為什麼所以主委你們的態度是什麼經管會的態度就是連跟勞動部討論都不願意是嗎"},{"start":12749.836,"end":12764.986,"text":"我們是有跟勞動部討論但是要入法去訂金管會的勞動條件要去明訂我覺得這個是有基本價值的差異的問題但是如果立法院通過了這個還是得做吧我想今天就是一個很好的開始"},{"start":12765.926,"end":12791.451,"text":"任何法案的修正都需要大家共同的研商至於保險業務員他本身簽了什麼樣的合約合約的內容他應該都可以理解只是我們要保障一些他的工作條件而已我相信這個部分不是要去抵觸他們本身跟公司之間的企業自由而是要讓他有一個基本的工作條件的保障我想今天這兩個法案都不應該在"},{"start":12793.672,"end":12820.809,"text":"討論好幾屆然後到新的國會又來總理討論那這一屆大概是唯一一次有機會通過因為三黨不過半加上這個兩個法案我看三黨都提出相關的版本這個通過的機率是很高的所以兩位首長雖然黃主委已經可能要離任但是可能都需要各單位把這件事情正視而不要讓它成為這一屆國會又沒辦法處理下一屆國會要重來的法案"},{"start":12822.096,"end":12835.148,"text":"主委,雖然您要離職,我覺得這個事情也是重要的,好嗎?好,謝謝委員。好,莊部長,同樣的問題,剛剛講的,我這邊有一個簡單的案子,它其實很多自用住宅的"},{"start":12837.449,"end":12837.749,"text":"議員王世堅等"},{"start":12867.829,"end":12885.354,"text":"這個案子很清楚就是如果我已經住了7個月我爸爸過世了然後我9月之前忘記去申請我就一整年都沒有優惠了所以我們希望說民眾其實很簡單當他家人過世沒有人會搞得清楚什麼時候要去申請自用住宅用地的優惠"},{"start":12886.374,"end":12908.065,"text":"所以之前在民國87年的時候其實曾經有過臺北市陳水扁當市長的時候曾經重新核定過可是後來在整個不管是負稅署也好或財政部也好就再也沒有同意民眾能夠優惠了所以我只希望這是一個簡單的事情但是法令非常的死"},{"start":12914.408,"end":12929.174,"text":"我只希望能夠提供一個簡正、便民的方案讓家裡有人過世然後他可能沒有來得及在9月22號以前去申請自用住宅的他有機會再獲得按照他的實際使用的年齡"},{"start":12931.638,"end":12950.399,"text":"月份來做比例的扣除。部長,這個可以做到吧?好,這個部分我們再來瞭解一下這個案的實際情形看一下法規。它可能不是只有個案,它可能將來是一個同案。但是大部分的民眾因為忽略了或還在傷心痛苦的時候沒有去申請而造成了喪失一整年的"},{"start":12951.34,"end":12961.372,"text":"幼惠的所謂自用住宅的幼惠的地價稅我想這個部分署長我們可以在會後再把個案交給你但是我覺得要訂出一個未來的方案"},{"start":12964.69,"end":12990.397,"text":"不過委員因為目前在辦計程的時候一般地方稅計的機會會提醒計程人他要去變更那個自用住宅就補辦那個自用住宅的等級我覺得要給人家補救的機會啦好不好提醒是一回事補救的機會很重要因為主要是現在地價稅是按年課徵的關係啦所以因為個案也不多嘛你就讓他有補救的機會有機會那一整年他可以按比例來優惠好嗎好請財政部給我一個報告謝謝好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":12997.952,"end":13000.293,"text":"下一位歡迎陳玉珍陳委員請莊部長"},{"start":13014.639,"end":13022.491,"text":"委員好 這個我們金門地區這個在因為缺水嘛 很乾旱 那水如果從這個台灣本島運過去的話 非常貴而且環不濟急嘛 原水救不了進火"},{"start":13029.4,"end":13029.82,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":13054.369,"end":13055.009,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":13081.304,"end":13081.545,"text":"但是呢,"},{"start":13095,"end":13110.918,"text":"自來水這個東西事實上不應該是地方政府的自治事項我們承擔民生供水對中央政府來講對我們來講是很不公平全台灣的水怎麼來誰付錢這都是中央的事情"},{"start":13111.539,"end":13128.11,"text":"我們是離島啊因為我們自己缺水中央的水從台灣過來實際上也很不划算我們為了要有水我們從大陸買水進水做這些設備我們要自己出錢那這個當初中央是說由我們先出跟財政部借錢經濟部再電還給我們這個您了解這個背景嗎"},{"start":13132.292,"end":13158.009,"text":"現在我們就欠你們這個地方建設基金2.4億嗎?基本憲政我就欠財政部2.4億嗎?目前是2.4億欠你們錢啊但是地方建設基金在你們財政部跟國發會主計總部溝通109年的時候地方建設基金要解編嘛猜測猜測對就是沒有這個基金嘛那現在變成我們就要還你們2.4億啊"},{"start":13160.185,"end":13160.986,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":13190.605,"end":13192.928,"text":"這個基金嘛,現在叫我們一次還,怎麼辦呢?報告齁,當時金門向地方建設基金來貸款的時候已經簽了最長是5年的貸款期那也陸陸續續也都在還,所以最後現在到1月9號還差2.4億"},{"start":13212.549,"end":13235.974,"text":"所以這個部分呢建設基金雖然109年裁撤但是呢他到最他還是陸續在該還的還是要還還是要還但是不是跟建設並不因為建設基金裁撤所以你才要還這2.4而是原來就是因為貸款的合約是5年這樣的一個情況所以跟因為這個涉及到經濟部嘛那經部要慢慢的給我們錢讓我們來還你們嘛本來是這個樣子嘛"},{"start":13238.334,"end":13260.101,"text":"當然這不是只有你們這個部的事情但是你看在財政委員會我也常跟這個主計總處這邊講你看我跟主席這邊那個講過多少次我說我們就現在財政不好沒有錢嘛不像說以前那麼有錢沒有錢嘛叫他說把我們的這個財政這個花分降一點不要從三級降到五級讓我們可以少支出一點嘛他說你們很有錢我們現在欠你們2.4億還不出來怎麼辦勒"},{"start":13264.443,"end":13279.597,"text":"沒辦法還啊沒辦法還不會啦金門縣政府的財政狀況應該還不錯你們不能一直說因為我們很有錢所以什麼東西就這樣本來這個是中央要做的事情水這個東西在水上給你們以前電也是我們自己負責啦我們以前是金門電廠"},{"start":13280.738,"end":13301.074,"text":"水現在還是我們金門自來水廠那什麼那個金大如果沒有錢我們要幫忙出錢金門醫院沒有錢我們要幫忙出錢金門都要附帶一個中央政府應該做的事情你是要支持我們金門獨立嗎我想不是啦我想當時這個都有一個計畫在執行然後經濟部他也有編列預算做前額的補助"},{"start":13301.374,"end":13319.394,"text":" ️﹏"},{"start":13319.474,"end":13324.697,"text":"對,這個我們在地方首長會跟這個張景森政委也有討論這件事情我知道,你們也在那個第11首長聯繫匯報也有提案有提這個案子那你們也要考慮,也要整體考慮當然因為不是你一個人的事情,也要整體考慮"},{"start":13336.884,"end":13337.885,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":13360.957,"end":13360.977,"text":"繼續再見!"},{"start":13382.608,"end":13410.397,"text":"大學喔醫院喔金門現在都貼錢欸連金門大橋我們都自己貼錢下去啊什麼都貼錢啊我們是為了金門的建設發展啊不得已自己都知道我們熱井酷待很辛苦還喝高粱酒好謝謝來下一個進水對不對這個我們不是從大陸進口水嗎那進口水這個進來呢這個水本來就是應該中央政府要做現在我們地方政府自己來做那這個我們還要繳納這個營業稅"},{"start":13413.081,"end":13438.397,"text":"這個不合理吧?你看喔雖然這個錢不是很多啦幾百萬啦那你看我們這個相關的這個加值型及非加值型營業稅法第九條、第九條之一有講進口以下貨物免徵營業稅你看其中有一個因應經濟特殊狀況調節物資進口那時候小麥、大麥、玉米、黃豆這一種都是民生必需嘛那水是不是民生必需?"},{"start":13440.018,"end":13457.906,"text":"跟委員報告因為營業稅是屬於一般的消費稅在銷售的時候都會要課正營業稅那水要賣給誰啊?水就是金門縣政府給百姓為了要一定的價錢跟台灣的百姓一樣的水價嘛所以金門縣政府自己進了水進來還要貼錢還要自己做什麼水廠"},{"start":13461.748,"end":13478.998,"text":"對嗎?全部都自己貼,那這個雖然這個稅是幾百萬而已,但這個也是可以在裡頭修法裡頭,像你看那個如果大麥、小麥、玉米、黃豆這些都可以激動的調整,金門這個水應該也可以激動調整啊,因為這是民生必需品啊,不是拿來賣的啊,不是拿來賺錢的啊。"},{"start":13480.058,"end":13504.276,"text":"是,那但對於有關這個虧損的部分那經濟部也編列了預算來做撥補我知道,那編列預算就編的比較慢啊我們先墊錢,剛剛我前面前提跟你說過了嗎所以我們中間要墊很多錢啊然後你們要叫我們趕快一次還我們又現在還不起啊所以我們可以各個地方可以省的要讓我們省嘛而且這個是符合照顧民生經濟啊你可以考慮一下這個是民生經濟啊這個不是說,而且水嘛"},{"start":13505.237,"end":13506.779,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":13520.974,"end":13541.223,"text":"因為水市必需品長期都要用的。對,但是你可以再,我們可以多一項啊。多一項啊。水市民生必需品,而且這本來就是中央應該負責的。事實上如果沒有也是,那個到時候經濟部他要再貼錢進來嘛。那你何必這樣子。你們兩個不會可能要協調一下。"},{"start":13541.903,"end":13559.48,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":13559.639,"end":13584.306,"text":"沒有啊,離島接觸條例已經有相關的就金門水廠案這個本島的這個部分的話都可以有相關的補貼啊好,那你就用那個當法源讓我們這個營業稅免徵嘛你就把那個當法源就可以了那可以啊,如果你這樣同意我不修法我也可以同意啦不一樣的是不多錢啦,一年大概幾百萬啦但是也是對地區影響很大不一樣的,是是是我的意思說原則啦哪一、修在哪裡我都可以但是原則就是說"},{"start":13585.807,"end":13607.364,"text":"這個民生基本民生的需要水啊、電啊這些都是中央政府應該負擔的不然就是我到時候不然諮詢院長請他把水廠收過去當台灣水廠不要做基本以前我們電也是這樣全部都我們自己出嘛在台灣的話水跟電也是要課營業稅的啦在水跟電都要課在台灣我知道但是我的意思是說這個東西"},{"start":13609.105,"end":13636.472,"text":"因為臺灣科反正是經濟部在出的嘛,都是你們臺灣自來水公司啊,那個都臺灣的都是政府的,我們都地方政府自己出啊,我想因為大部分在場都不了解,所有東西金門的什麼水啊這些東西醫療啊教育什麼都要自己出錢,不能說自己很有錢要求條項什麼都也不願意,那個部長請給我們多多支持好嗎?委員我想這個部分還是要通盤的考量,對你通盤的考量一下在如果院會裡頭,幫我們多說一下吧。"},{"start":13638.633,"end":13645.559,"text":"我們再考量是謝謝委員多多考量好嗎多多考量是吧謝謝謝謝現在請楊瓊英楊委員謝主席召委本席發言邀請部長請莊部長"},{"start":13671.052,"end":13672.233,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13689.925,"end":13702.69,"text":"這個詐騙貨物但是依照我們現在關稅法第64條規定要申請退稅的這個部分也沒有辦法依照同條的第51條重法的第51條來申請這個退換豁免稅那考量的民眾他都已經被詐騙了已經有金錢的一個損失"},{"start":13714.375,"end":13730.824,"text":"那如果稅費又不允許民眾來申請退還的話那無意義就是對於民眾造成惡度的傷害那也跟國家組成了一個國家打詐隊跟國家在打詐保護民眾的權益呢"},{"start":13732.165,"end":13733.686,"text":"關稅署可否研擬制定詐騙查核的標準?"},{"start":13751.826,"end":13765.648,"text":"如果說消費者他可以舉證確實他是遭受到這個詐騙那應該是可以辦理退稅、退貨齁那在這樣的情況之下關稅局可以來做退還的工作"},{"start":13767.667,"end":13782.012,"text":"委員謝謝 這個部分我們也很重視就是民眾遭到網購詐騙的話那對於已繳的關稅的部分要怎麼樣來做更便民的處理那這個部分關務署已經在研議了已經在研議中了那怎麼研議呢好請署長說明"},{"start":13785.922,"end":13807.075,"text":"跟委員報告我們會簡化相關的程序就目前關稅法部分沒有辦法去適用的部分我們用行政規則的方式去簡化相關的程序對這個就是政府應該要做的來再請說明那我們現在在會各官執行上的一些意見那預計大概一個月內就可以發佈相關的措施"},{"start":13807.495,"end":13822.574,"text":"一個月內之內可以發布嗎?因為這個是現在地球村的無國界民眾我們要保護他那但是他的舉證在這樣的情況那你一個月後預計要公告的是什麼內容呢?"},{"start":13824.877,"end":13850.812,"text":"就是目前這個退稅的部分如果是詐騙的話怎麼去舉證的問題那我們會比照金管會相關的一個規定就是說如果他有跟警政署報案提案的話那我們就會處理官方認證是是是那要證明說這個所謂的貨物的確是網購進來的一些市政那要民眾來提出證明"},{"start":13852.193,"end":13879.535,"text":"那其他的大概就是一些比較細節的程序部分都會把它簡化掉來讓本來不符合關稅法的規定可以透過這樣的一個行政規則來簡便民眾來退稅對 這個就是本期一直追蹤一直關心因為民眾啊太多了太多了而且很痛苦那我們要解決他的問題所以我們一個月內就會公佈嘛是"},{"start":13880.015,"end":13880.295,"text":"議員王世堅等"},{"start":13897.941,"end":13923.748,"text":"是,好,我也希望部長,這個署長談這樣這是我們要為人民所做的那我也希望在你一個月內要公布的時候你應該要宣傳,對不對一定要宣傳,你不要只有在你的網站上面公告沒人知道不行,一定要宣傳,好不好我就夾住你,暫許這件事情一定要解決民眾的痛苦那麼一定要好好的宣傳,好不好"},{"start":13925.088,"end":13952.084,"text":"接下來本席要跟你討論的是關稅法第49條的免稅規定本席一直關心因為我們是整個地球村你到各地去買東西一定會買東西大家互相的交流在這樣的一個情況之下我們主要是要符合國際的慣例公眾利益以及計增成本的考量所以給予進口貨物的免稅"},{"start":13953.965,"end":13966.277,"text":"該條的第三項特別規定授權訂定入境旅客攜帶行李物品檢驗稅放辦法所定的入境旅客攜帶的行李免稅額度我們從1989年修訂到現在"},{"start":13973.143,"end":13980.611,"text":"部長1989年到現在這樣幾年了?1989年現在幾年了?我們只有兩萬塊這個免稅額度我們現在已經要調整到三萬五千而且相關的規定已經在預告當中了我們30年沒有檢討我們跟不上國際的腳步我舉例"},{"start":13995.766,"end":14025.092,"text":"日本它的免稅額是20萬的日元大概就是4萬3左右日本年輕國家都4萬3了我也知道大家很關心你們也在努力預計要什麼時候公告啊已經預告了預告到什麼時候要執行在6月底之前就會發布實施6月底開始執行之嘛那但是部長你們現在公告的這個免稅額多少"},{"start":14025.848,"end":14027.49,"text":"我們不只收集日本,也收集其他鄰近國家。"},{"start":14044.752,"end":14066.312,"text":"對,我們這個金額應該算是合宜啦部長你再去思考啦那署長也在這邊因為大家很關心整個地球村我們要怎麼樣讓我們跟國際可以充分的互動我覺得這個是非常重要的所以我們現在預告到6月底來執行資是從30年沒有調的2萬塊"},{"start":14069.274,"end":14090.471,"text":"來到3萬5千塊本期具體建議6月底開始執行我們再執行一段時間因為通盤的關係如果有必要我們再來提升好不好徐君晉進來提升好不好徐君晉進來提升好不好徐君晉進來提升好不好徐君晉進來提升好不好徐君晉進來提升好不好徐君晉進來提升好不好徐君晉進來提升好不好"},{"start":14101.768,"end":14104.47,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請莊部長莊部長請委員好部長好部長不管不分朝野的委員都對於說現在所謂的娛樂稅感到說真的已經有不合時宜的感覺為什麼因為這個是民國31年8年抗戰時期就開徵的娛樂稅現在有82年的歷史"},{"start":14128.254,"end":14155.976,"text":"那娛樂稅當然經過這樣子的一個時空環境變化不同其實以前的娛樂稅以前大家會認為是說這個相對來講已經是這種富裕的時候才有辦法使用的一個稅到現在感覺是小確幸啦就民眾看個電影啊民眾去這個看個表演啊其實這個是生活的一個條式而且文化部等相關的部會我們也都鼓勵說大家應該要多參與"},{"start":14157.179,"end":14171.429,"text":"那本席現在看到是說這個財政部還是覺得說搖頭啊覺得說廢除娛樂稅不可不不不一樣本席好奇啊過去我們要調整或是修改哪一個稅制的時候財政部有點頭過的"},{"start":14174.306,"end":14198.163,"text":"委員報告娛樂稅是屬於地方稅所以我們要尊重地方政府的意見所以財政部也邀請了地方政府一起來討論地方政府都反對只有一個地方政府認為可以其他地方政府都反對廢止娛樂稅但是也如同剛剛委員所說的比如說有一些的娛樂項目在今天的一個社會環境情況下"},{"start":14199.964,"end":14223.344,"text":"是不是還要再課徵娛樂稅這個是可以檢討也就是課稅項目可以做檢討第二個部分對稅率的部分目前第五條是規定了各項各個課稅項目的一個稅率的上限那目前實務上的地方政府都是從低課徵那所以在上限的部分也可以做調整那第三個我們也要考量到地方政府事實上他因為他有他的政策目的他想要推廣"},{"start":14223.985,"end":14224.005,"text":"部長"},{"start":14251.943,"end":14277.715,"text":"本席沒有打斷你的回答時間但你還是沒有回答我的問題啊是什麼時候我們要調整任何一個稅率的時候財政部有點頭同意的?好像也沒有嘛我們也只有這樣吧來,部長本席是區域委員啊所以你不用說拿地方政府來好像督我的嘴啊我當然知道說地方的財政不容易啊我當然知道說地方政府都也希望是說能夠有更多的這個援額啊但實在話說啊"},{"start":14279.076,"end":14306.089,"text":"中央在運用中央我們也會之後會討論這個財政收支劃分法如果說中央收支的部分能夠給地方政府有更公平的一個對待包括說給本席的新北市400萬人口但是我們人平均是拿到六都最低的有更公平的對待的話我覺得娛樂稅這相對來講這個比較項目比較少那是大家都可以接受而且再講"},{"start":14307.728,"end":14331.491,"text":"你今天的報告因為已經要討論到這個主條了有可能要討論到主條而且各黨團也都有簽所謂的不復議的一個同意書所以要討論到主條了你現在跟我們講是說可以來做檢討這個相關的這一些這個檢討條項或是部分課稅的項目但你還是沒有給我們到底具體的內容怎麼做"},{"start":14333.049,"end":14361.955,"text":"你們只有講不一樣但你沒有講的具體哪一些地方檢討哪一些地方調整沒有啊那到底是我們等到主條的時候才來做主條審查嗎還是說你們到底心目中有沒有什麼樣的方向電影是國片的部分我們可以不要爭娛樂稅還是怎麼樣的部分還是什麼表演性質我們表演團體如果說是我們這種本土的表演團體我們不要爭娛樂稅來鼓勵我們本土的文化"},{"start":14363.376,"end":14375.444,"text":"有沒有一個方向?跟委員報告齁當然您講的就是說為什麼沒有一個具體的項目就是我們如果後面講的就是說因為各個具體的項目地方政府還有一些分歧的意見所以我們希望能夠分出最大的所以什麼時候會出來這個議題已經討論很久從第10屆就討論了嘛"},{"start":14380.268,"end":14398.063,"text":"82年以來都有娛樂稅大家也都有討論說娛樂稅是不是與時俱進應該要調整但是絕對不是說到現在這個時候都已經要進入竹條了草野委員都有共識了都希望能夠修正都希望能夠爭取的時候還在講說地方政府那這樣就代表說你中央沒有去統合或說中央沒有去確認一個結論啊"},{"start":14400.55,"end":14424.525,"text":"我們即便是在立法院我們很多的委員有提出不同版本我們召委可能都會說拜託我們委員是不是各黨團去整合一個版本我們這樣子有兩三個黨團版本大家比較好來討論那一樣的道理啊今天我沒有辦法我知道各縣市的這個稅務單位都有來但我沒有辦法說叫各縣市的稅務單位大家一個一個上來所以我們當然還是請財政部來做統籌啊"},{"start":14427.589,"end":14436.702,"text":"我只想要確認是說當我們進入到主條的時候財政部會不會有一個一致的講法或說比列這樣而不是那麼空洞的講說是檢討條項但是還是一樣搖頭"},{"start":14440.748,"end":14453.913,"text":"我想跟委員報告,財政部還是會跟地方政府來討論,我們尋求一個最大的共識。是,所以你最大共識是什麼?就是不要動,維持現狀。沒有,我覺得不是這樣。不是,我們剛剛不是講過的項目被做調整。不是嗎?沒有,財政部大家都可以討論的啊,是。"},{"start":14465.305,"end":14483.452,"text":"副長本席還是強調啦我覺得是說應該要去做這真真正正的去討論因為現在既然娛樂稅各黨團也都有版本出來那大家也都希望是說能夠調整那還有就是如果說真的我覺得應該還要繼續思考如果說真的娛樂稅有取消或是減免的話"},{"start":14484.392,"end":14506.953,"text":"票價上的反應能不能給實質﹑譬如說消費者﹑譬如說給這些有最實質的一個益助是跟委員報告您提到就是說如果娛樂稅不課徵的話那是不是這個票價的這個娛樂稅是不是會反映到消費者的身上這個是很重要因為娛樂現在是他是在代徵也就是我賣電影票對不對沒錯所以"},{"start":14507.373,"end":14509.878,"text":"我順便就課真的娛樂稅我賣的時候賣了還是一樣你娛樂稅沒有課他依然是以這個片這個是很重要的事對啊"},{"start":14516.48,"end":14537.208,"text":"所以你要去...部長很重要所以本席現在質詢你有沒有去思考如果說假設真的有我們認為是說娛樂稅要取消的話那後面反映到票價上因為沒有代徵這一個部分了那我們怎麼樣有強制或是我們怎麼樣有一個政策工具或方法可以讓消費者也感受到"},{"start":14538.308,"end":14565.276,"text":"所以這個就後面的一個要做的事情可能會第一個地方政府少了稅收第二個消費者又沒有得到福利部長應該是今天大家都已經來了應該是財政部要超前部署要針對這個議題先去做研擬是我們會的我們還會再會邀地方政府一起來做討論的是什麼時候會邀我們時間再來定吧部長一個月內我"},{"start":14567.045,"end":14594.994,"text":"因為這個尊重召委的牌案但是我想羅明才委員他過去長期在財政委員會那麼資深的召委他也會協助那再加上是說我剛剛已經講了娛樂稅的部分我們各黨團有簽不復議同意書所以有可能很快也會來做這個逐條那本席認為應該財政部這邊要做超前部署如果說真的有調整在逐條審查的時候你們要提出你們的一個建議而不是說如同今天一樣就是"},{"start":14595.914,"end":14622.067,"text":"可以檢討跟調降但是沒有任何具體的東西我覺得這樣子沒有無助於無助於討論那還有更重要的是如果說真的有調降的話怎麼樣反映在票價上能夠讓消費者感受到現在既然政府沒有徵收這個娛樂稅一部分可以讓我們的表演團體他們能夠有減輕這個財政一部分也可以讓消費者減輕票價能夠更鼓勵大家"},{"start":14623.606,"end":14646.942,"text":"進場看表演,進場支持我們國片或說進場支持我們的運動產業,這樣可以嗎?是,會的。一個月內召開會議,在主條的時候要提出來,可以嗎?我們先召開會議好不好?好,一個月內,好不好?給本席,會議結論給本席以及我們財政委員會的委員。好,謝謝。謝謝部長。好,謝謝洪孟楷委員,謝謝。接著我們請黃國昌委員,黃國昌,在。"},{"start":14667.728,"end":14675.708,"text":"謝謝主席,然後有請監管會主委。黃主委。你好。"},{"start":14676.95,"end":14699.549,"text":"主委好主委辛苦了即將要卸任了我相信在您監管會議院內服務這麼久您的表現不管是金融界還是社會有一定的評價雖然您即將要卸任了有些事情我還是想要比較具體的問得清楚因為政府會輪替"},{"start":14702.84,"end":14711.884,"text":"閣員會換人金管會主委會換人但我們對於我們一般的民眾的保護應該是要持續的不會因為有換人的情況而產生變動"},{"start":14718.484,"end":14737.179,"text":"從上一次的國會到這一屆的國會以IMB的例子、IMB的這個弊案引發的風暴我們開始全面的去思考跟反省之前我在諮詢的時候也請教過您就是說2016年的時候我們本來P2P是要納管"},{"start":14738.54,"end":14757.686,"text":"在某一個時間當中突然政策做了非常大的轉彎後來央行針對主要的國家在訂定P2P規範的時候他們也很清楚的把各國規範的態度把它整理出來了從美國、英國"},{"start":14759.431,"end":14782.47,"text":"澳洲各個國家、央行、我們的中央銀行很負責的都把它整理出來了不管是就P2P平台的監理規範或者是P2P平台它應該要有的主管機關或者是說P2P平台它的業者它設立了合準或登記我相信這份報告主委你應該也很熟嗎?沒有拜讀謝謝是嗎?好"},{"start":14784.171,"end":14795.35,"text":"當然我知道啦,金管會到目前為止的立場是可能會考慮到說金管會自己目前本身的量能還是確定的沒有打算要把P2P納入監理的範圍嘛 對不對"},{"start":14799.079,"end":14820.819,"text":"現在因為去年行政院開過會有幾個方向,那也曾給委員看過那幾個步驟了,包括我們有定的主導原則、工會的自律,但工會現在因為每個人的model不一樣,所以在內政部那邊、經濟部那邊還造成還要再協調。您就先針對問題回答就好了,到目前為止的政策立場是沒有人要拿管嗎?"},{"start":14822.594,"end":14844.414,"text":"沒有用立法的方式去管沒有用立法的方式嘛那我也拜讀了監管會所推出的指導原則真的你們P2P借貸平台所推的指導原則我從頭到尾我詳細拜讀完了但作為一個法律人我最根本的問題是這個指導原則到底是什麼"},{"start":14845.928,"end":14864.796,"text":"這個指導原則是法規命令嗎?是行政規則嗎?他沒有法律的基礎嗎?我覺得這件事情把它講清楚很重要因為當指導原則沒有法律的基礎那我們接下來就要處理好幾個重要的問題第一個事情是那違反指導原則的法律效果是什麼?"},{"start":14866.277,"end":14885.076,"text":"因為我們105年開始基本是透過他們跟銀行之間的互動,透過銀行的間接的對他的這個封控這方面去做一個管理,是用這種方式去做的。對,所以我的問題成立除了你還沒有回答,違反指導原則的法律效果是什麼?"},{"start":14885.768,"end":14912.549,"text":"基本上沒有特定的法律效果沒有法律的依據這個事情我覺得讓所有的人知道是很重要的要不然大家接到訊息說儘管會有推指導原則大家會陷入一個錯誤的想像那個錯誤的想像就是你這個平台業者你要遵照這個指導原則你如果不遵照這個指導原則的話會如何如何"},{"start":14913.65,"end":14923.471,"text":"所以很清楚的讓所有的人都知道這些平台業者啊他不遵守這個指導原則也不會怎麼樣嘛我的理解有沒有錯誤"},{"start":14924.623,"end":14944.983,"text":"委員這P2P是這樣可是允不允許我可以多講一兩句話可以請說我們在那個虛擬資產平台也是去年9月26號有訂那個指導原則目前也還沒有訂法但是VASP的工會業者是對我們的指導原則是遵循的而且我們檢查的時候也會依照那個原則去檢查我這樣說好了啦"},{"start":14946.38,"end":14974.127,"text":"我們之所以有訂定規範的必要我們當然相信大部分的人會遵守規範之所以會制定規範是要處理那些不遵守規範的人以目前台灣P2P借貸平台也好債權轉讓也好的亂象我必須要跟主委講我個人的看法去期待這些業者會自己遵守這種自律規範我覺得是緣木求魚"},{"start":14975.387,"end":15000.607,"text":"我們比較實際的看法是當你不遵守當你不遵守我們應該有的規範的時候我們的法律效果是什麼給大家的保護是什麼這個才實際嘛 對不對主席你這個大小眼站起來你不喜歡看到我站起來伸展身體就對了最後一題你不要大小眼就好"},{"start":15002.674,"end":15023.967,"text":"這件事情很重要你要跟社會大眾知道這個自律規範業者不遵守也不會怎麼樣我為什麼很重視這件事情就是另外一個你們一直說要成立商業同業工會要成立商業同業工會讓他們自律嘛那商業同業工會講到今天成立了嗎"},{"start":15025.017,"end":15052.123,"text":"目前還沒有就是說業者之間彼此意見分歧有的就排他他覺得你的模式跟我不符我不要跟你加入這個工會是有這個問題主委目前的狀態不就剛好印證了我剛講的話嗎這些業者啊連要不要成立商業工會啊誰主導啊誰可以參加誰不可以參加都可以鬧得不可開交啊還期待他們會遵守這個自律規範啊"},{"start":15053.447,"end":15064.365,"text":"主委你覺得我講的有沒有道理?委員指教的值得我們參考謝謝他們這樣繼續鬧下去主委依照您的判斷在您卸任以前這個商業同業公會成立的起來嗎?"},{"start":15065.902,"end":15085.208,"text":"目前的進展是還沒有到成立的時候就原地踏步嘛持續的在踏步嘛過了一年以後我可能在這個地方問下屆的主委說這個PVP業者商業同位公會成立了嗎他還可能跟你的答案一模一樣這些業者大家有不一樣的看法"},{"start":15086.718,"end":15110.574,"text":"到現在都還沒有成立這個是為什麼我苦口婆心的講金管會真的針對這一件事情的規範立場是什麼或許要重新思考因為我真的很擔心我真的很擔心下一次不曉得又哪一個借貸平台出了狀況又有多少人會受害主委您可以了解我為什麼說這樣的話嗎"},{"start":15111.775,"end":15126.172,"text":"我很感謝委員對這件事情用這樣一個方式對我們的指導我們會記住最後可能也是公開的跟下一任可能的主委喊話要接金管會主委沒那麼容易"},{"start":15127.333,"end":15147.577,"text":"我希望新的內閣針對P2P這件事情立場到底是什麼是不是還是採取我們不納管用自律規範的方式可能要先想清楚因為一上任以後馬上就要跟整個社會做報告好 謝謝謝謝委員謝謝黃委員喔 謝謝接著我們請吳立華委員沒有啊 讓你講到完了就好吳現場而已就好謝謝"},{"start":15165.239,"end":15169.225,"text":"主席好有請財政部金管會"},{"start":15176.212,"end":15204.255,"text":"委員好部長好主委好前幾天4月19號的新聞我們有看到飯公股的華南銀行香港分行它違反了洗錢的規定遭到當地政府開罰了3680萬那照理說財政部台銀有共同持股可是我們看財政部的新聞稿專區"},{"start":15205.876,"end":15234.473,"text":"好像沒看到,隻字不提那儘管會作為我國金融監理機構我們的銀行遭到他國銀行的監理機構綜合裁法在新聞專區也是沒有看到所以在這邊就是想要了解一下華南銀行遭到香港政府的一個綜合裁法他是政治問題呢還是他們的一個疏失"},{"start":15237.195,"end":15256.991,"text":"2016 2016年趙鋒銀行紐約分行當時違反洗錢防治法遭到紐約州的金融署處以臺灣史上最高的罰款是1.8億的美金當時提出他們有6大問題像內控不佳"},{"start":15257.972,"end":15272.029,"text":"一式洗錢的匯款沒有申報或者是對客戶的實地查核不確實封控政策不明或者集合的寄報沒有依規定送總行"},{"start":15273.551,"end":15288.092,"text":"獲者他漠視金融檢查報告不回應等等所以想要就是瞭解一下先問一下主委那今晚會有沒有去了解這個是不是有違反相關的一些法制"},{"start":15289.582,"end":15309.359,"text":"他當然是有違反的缺失可是他不是真正的洗錢是他處理警示賬戶累積過多沒有及時依照香港金管局的規定去處理所以給予的處分所以是一個小缺失這不是真正的有一個交易是真正違反防止洗錢跟洗錢無關"},{"start":15310.64,"end":15311.82,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":15329.947,"end":15345.129,"text":"主管機關財法的情勢立即要以書面報告向財政部說明事件的經過、處置的情形以及可能的影響。不知道財政部這個地方有沒有掌握到什麼?"},{"start":15346.381,"end":15370.244,"text":"有的。華南銀行確實有通報這個重大的事件也通報給財政部然後這個事情大概就是剛剛如主委所說的事實上是在107年以前的事情就是有關那個系統的有效驗證做不好以至於有關警示案件大量產生而且是華南銀行的香港分行主動去跟香港的金管局去自己去匯報的那所以呢那個"},{"start":15371.445,"end":15383.27,"text":"那邊的金管局也要求他們要去改善那事實上也改善了也經過相關的委外的顧問經過改善是有效的這個部分都經過這樣的一個處理了好 謝謝部長那因為八大公股行庫在香港都設有分行所以這樣的一個個案呢我們還是需要是不是讓通報各個銀行看看他們有沒有違反香港的一些金管規定對吧"},{"start":15398.257,"end":15424.083,"text":"是,我們一定會讓各個分行都要注意好,謝謝那再來請教一下我們金管會的主委請問您支不支持受險業降低海外投資佔比回台來抑制我國的產業發展我們的報告我們希望維持現狀但是維持現狀也可以同樣讓資金抑制我國的產業發展那跟主委報告"},{"start":15425.555,"end":15428.156,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書"},{"start":15445.281,"end":15465.65,"text":"會很擔心說會不會造成一些金融上的一個波動那舉個例子來講如果說國外投資總額從現在的45%下降到25%那我們去把它設算加計這個國際版債券的上限之後也就是說會從65.25%下降到36.25%"},{"start":15470.632,"end":15491.771,"text":"那跟目前實際的佔比57.5%差距會到達21.25%如果去乘上受險資金總額如果以32兆來看那大概就是說會有6.8兆因為他超過上限所以他會立即的湧入到臺灣"},{"start":15493.132,"end":15518.743,"text":"那這個金額到底是怎麼樣的一個狀況那我們也看到有去試算如果以台灣史上最高單月的淨匯入金額在2023年的11月是3521億那這個6.8兆就會是史上最高的19.3倍請教一下主委就是它會造成什麼影響會讓台幣飆升嗎還是讓出口惡化"},{"start":15521.738,"end":15546.568,"text":"我覺得這還不是直接的直接的就是這些保護的權益怎麼維護這些投資出去是因為他的保單的年期跟收益力需要他要到國外投資那你回來如果沒有適當的標的如何保障保護的權益那請教就主委了對您也講到了為了要匹配我們的保單嘛那所以我們也會很想知道就是受險資金在台灣的可投資項目多不多"},{"start":15550.175,"end":15551.677,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":15567.449,"end":15578.432,"text":"本院委員王世堅等23人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王"},{"start":15595.916,"end":15597.297,"text":"主委您覺得呢?所以我們的目標方向就是跨年逐步下降嗎?"},{"start":15616.691,"end":15631.245,"text":"我都有把我們整個的歷年來怎麼樣去協助都列出來在這個報告第8月、第9月成為委員參考。那我們會繼續努力。好,謝謝主委。那我們先回座。那請教一下那個部長,因為我們今天也有來談娛樂稅。是。"},{"start":15633.547,"end":15648.877,"text":"那大家也都講了很多啦那我也就不再贅述不過我們的想法都是說從2007年修正到現在2024年真的啦整個狀況都不同光是我們看在疫情期間"},{"start":15649.898,"end":15667.615,"text":"我們非常鼓勵去振興我們的藝文產業那現在電影院也都沒人去了其實我們是反過來去想要怎麼振興可是我們在2007年修正的時候像有一些保齡球館啊"},{"start":15668.275,"end":15670.177,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復"},{"start":15686.094,"end":15705.74,"text":"上一次的修正委員提案大概做了一些修正但是相對應的稅率那個部分並沒有做調整所以未來在修的時候可以一併的去把它做一個調整如同委員所說的這樣子才對所以會一併的來三處修正那另外一塊就是我們談到要針對一些稅務來去做一個處理的時候"},{"start":15711.361,"end":15734.5,"text":"財政部的回答我聽到的大概都是說要聽地方政府的意見所以想要請教一下部長因為我們不太了解也許你很了解這個地方政府不同意到底他是因為在意他的稅收減少還是說他不希望這些稅務刪除想要繼續消滅這些迷你之音"},{"start":15736.634,"end":15751.674,"text":"主要還是在於稅收的減少跟委員報告尤其在縣裡面他的鄉鎮市所收取的娛樂稅都是歸鄉鎮市這對鄉鎮市來說是非常重要的一個財源所以這個部分主要還是因為這個收入的問題"},{"start":15753.917,"end":15767.962,"text":"我看到娛樂稅一年稅收大概19億,您覺得很多嗎?19億當然在地方來說某些部分還是對他們來說還是蠻重要的一個裁員的因為各個地方比如以鄉鎮來說這個錢"},{"start":15769.483,"end":15797.673,"text":"所以呢歷年大家都過去都提出很多的解方嘛像是調高營業稅稅率或者做財化法的修正提高營業稅的統籌分貝又或者呢直接由中央編列預算補助併入奢侈稅開徵碳稅那地方政府開徵特別稅額我是在想這是大家提出的各種解方啦大概也不外乎這六種"},{"start":15798.513,"end":15818.43,"text":"那聽起來最有可能的是中央編列預算補助一年19億那去分配一下那如果說要找到一些替代財源也不難啊像國產署也經常做清理的案件或者是稅收增加的財源等等所以在這個地方可不可以請部長您6選1"},{"start":15822.011,"end":15840.698,"text":"委員報告這6項當然我們都要可以去演繹它各有它的一個問題在裡面我們歷年看到你們的回應都我們大概也都了解總是要6選1的話你選哪一個我想這個不是說我這邊在這邊選我覺得我們應該必須好好的討論跟來做一個演繹是"},{"start":15841.298,"end":15858.299,"text":"是跟地方政府討論?那當然地方政府,然後再加上我們中央裡面也要跟立委討論啦,立委當然是非常重要的事我是這樣覺得喔部長,因為我們的新政府要上任啦那賴清德總統他也提到文化建國的理念"},{"start":15859.58,"end":15879.731,"text":"所以我們真的是希望說把一些屬於藝文產業類的真的是可以拿掉了啦那如果真的覺得有一些是屬於高消費行為奢侈的那留著沒有關係但是總是要做一些改變好不好促進這些產業的發展好不好好那謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝吳麗華委員接著我們請鄭天才委員"},{"start":15901.457,"end":15929.327,"text":"主席、各位委員、有請部長。部長辛苦了。因為你要繼續當部長,所以應該希望很快的來處理這個《娛樂稅法》的問題。這個《娛樂稅法》第一條沒有立法的目的,直接就是說要依本法規定來徵收。"},{"start":15931.653,"end":15945.183,"text":"如果我們從這個過去的歷史的解釋來看民國69年以前徵收宴席娛樂稅後來就做了一個修正然後主要還是地方政府的收入"},{"start":15946.203,"end":15973.2,"text":"然後主要目的即在意境一增然後藉選擇奢侈性較高之娛樂消費行為科稅改善社會奢靡的風氣當然這個都已經改變已經不是了我們看這些娛樂稅法第二條你說它奢侈嗎也不是所以這個已經是一個很普遍的是一個日常所應該要有的所以"},{"start":15974.435,"end":15992.032,"text":"顯然按照你的報告就是說這個18點多億將近19億將近19億考量到是地方政府地方政府的稅收所以怎麼去解決地方政府的稅收"},{"start":15994.131,"end":15997.012,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復"},{"start":16019.565,"end":16044.781,"text":"很具體的做一個分析,對不對?像台北市、新北市,他們不同意嗎?所以,何況他的7都已經,都不是鄉鎮啦。所以這個部分要很具體的做分析,才能夠做論斷,才能夠去解決問題啦。所以這個部分給我們產業部一個方向。"},{"start":16047.885,"end":16069.011,"text":"這個監察院的糾正文提到相關這些這個是在比較早90幾年然後才監察院糾正案的一個結案97年的一個針對93年的也做了一個你們做了一個說明不管怎麼樣我們回到這裡這麼多的委員都質詢了你聽了這麼多"},{"start":16076.758,"end":16103.612,"text":"具體的要能夠不影響鄉鎮市很簡單就是補助所有他本來我們看要以哪一個年度假設我們現在修法我們就以112年度這些鄉鎮本來會收的這些娛樂稅中央就補助補貼就補助以後就照這個額度"},{"start":16106.155,"end":16122.27,"text":"這是一個最快的方式 對不對所以這個部分對一個中央政府對行政人來講19億不算多部長你如何"},{"start":16124.375,"end":16149.068,"text":"委員我知道您認為說這個19億的金額不是很高但是這個對地方的財政自主來說其實並不是很好他們還是希望能夠有自主權而且我們也召開地方政府的相關會議他們並不認同要廢止並不認同要廢止但是項目跟稅率是可以做一些再做一些調整我覺得就是與時俱進的做一些調整"},{"start":16151.25,"end":16164.325,"text":"部長,那個會議絕對沒有提說中央會補助,絕對沒有提嘛,對不對?他們當然就會反對啊,當然希望能夠維持啊。如果你開這個會議說"},{"start":16166.787,"end":16168.748,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議須經各黨團簽署不復議須經各黨團簽署"},{"start":16188.68,"end":16199.256,"text":"也不用開會啦 對不對你政策決定然後我們下次修這個條文的時候審查這個條文的時候就同意"},{"start":16200.745,"end":16228.644,"text":"可以嗎?雖然財政部沒有說這個補助但是呢根據財化法以及財政紀律法裏面都有規定這個民意機關或各級政府如果去修正或者是廢止相關法律而至於收入減少的話都要密託財源補助替代的財源是這個事實上在法條裏面都已經有明定了那個條我很清楚是就是說如果會減少的時候對你就"},{"start":16229.725,"end":16235.612,"text":"民定說不會減少就沒有那個問題了。好不好?是,謝謝委員,是,謝謝委員。好,以上,謝謝。"},{"start":16257.196,"end":16258.922,"text":"謝謝主席本席請財政部莊部長"},{"start":16265.973,"end":16295.493,"text":"委員好部長好首先恭喜您繼續留任本席也要說大家辛苦了不只是您今天我們來了那麼多單位財政部、金管會、主計處、教育部各部會還有包含各縣市相關跟娛樂稅有關的縣市政府的稅務局的主管我想大家真的辛苦了"},{"start":16296.093,"end":16317.021,"text":"現在已經是下午一點多但是大家都還坐在這邊開會部長你知道最大的原因就是我們財政部剛剛我想很多委員都提出來了如果財政部這個過去也不是今天第一次要審這個法案第一次大家討論這個議題財政部在跟地方開會的時候"},{"start":16318.442,"end":16344.4,"text":"如果財政部可以拿著我們中央有一個解決的辦法那地方政府怎麼會拒絕呢?或是怎麼會反彈呢?本席想請教您對於娛樂相關產業包括體育、藝文表演等鼓勵讓他們租稅的合理待遇和機制給予他們支持您認同嗎?"},{"start":16346.34,"end":16346.94,"text":"那就振興運動產業的角度您認為應該繼續對高爾夫球場徵營業稅嗎"},{"start":16370.015,"end":16383.678,"text":"您是說營業稅還是娛樂稅?娛樂稅那這個高爾夫球場的部分您知道上一次在娛樂稅法修正的時候曾經有提出來的保齡球館還有撞球場以及高爾夫球場要把它"},{"start":16385.559,"end":16409.935,"text":"除掉要剋娛樂稅那最後事實上在討論的時候高爾夫球場這個部分並沒有委員的之間達成一個共同的意見也就是說對於高爾夫球場因為面積比較大嘛他耗費的一個土地資源還有水土保持等等的一些影響所以在那一次修法的時候就沒有把這個部分拿掉我想這個部分對高爾夫球場這個部分還要有社會上的一個共識"},{"start":16410.996,"end":16433.644,"text":"什麼共識?難道高爾夫球場它也是一種很健康的運動嗎?應該要不需要課娛樂稅才對?高爾夫球當然它也是一個運動嘛至於它要不要課娛樂稅在上一次討論的時候那您覺得高爾夫球是有錢人打的所以你要課他稅嗎?是因為這樣嗎?"},{"start":16436.145,"end":16458.434,"text":"並不是說因為是有錢人打的所以要做課所以因為現在高爾夫球場的收費當然也有不同啦那我想這個地方還是就於這個有關水土資源的保育及外部的一些成本的因素考量所以在上一次修的時候在立法院也沒有共識說要把它拿掉那這一次立法院有共識是不是就可以拿掉這一次的修正的話其實我們覺得修正的話其實也要考慮"},{"start":16462.623,"end":16483.629,"text":"當然委員有不同的意見也要考慮地方政府尤其在鄉鎮的部分尤其在鄉鎮的部分對他們來說是很重要的一個財源太好了你就是一直拿鄉鎮的鄉鎮事工所他們來當黨箭牌部長你知道為什麼你當財政部長然後不是當財政科長你知道為什麼嗎不是黨箭牌我覺得地方政府的意見我們必須還是要尊重各位剛剛每個委員都說了部長"},{"start":16491.089,"end":16505.757,"text":"每個委員都說了如果您這個財政部在跟他們溝通的時候你有拿出彌補的財源或者是你說我可以從財政收支劃分法甚至我統籌分配稅款我可以去彌補你這一塊他們怎麼會反對"},{"start":16508.513,"end":16530.51,"text":"每個委員都這樣質詢了但是今天大家會做這麼久也是因為財政部就是沒有拿出這個具體的方案特別在報告書裡面就直接表示沒有適合彌補財源的方式部長你知道什麼路最好走嗎就是放棄的路兩手一攤沒有辦法"},{"start":16531.641,"end":16560.207,"text":"我們中央政府不可以這樣所以本席也要在這邊表達我今天簽署羅明才委員的提案是非常痛苦的決定因為我們覺得娛樂稅要與時俱進但是本席的轄區、關西鎮、新竹縣應該說整個新竹縣我們有在高爾夫球場裡面全國的高爾夫球場排名第三多所以我們還是要為"},{"start":16561.307,"end":16563.028,"text":"議員的意見我們都虛心的聆聽是好謝謝"},{"start":16592.175,"end":16597.739,"text":"謝謝徐委員接著我們請羅明才委主席個人出列式官員大家好主席可不可以請財政部部長莊部長莊部長"},{"start":16614.622,"end":16640.283,"text":"委員好看到大家現在一點都還開會實在於心不忍其實我們如果說你現在答應的話我們就早點休息或者是說今天如果說沒有辦法進入實質的審查那你可不可以告訴大家說你下一次或是一個月的時候會讓他過"},{"start":16643.308,"end":16670.96,"text":"這個我剛剛已經說過就是說我們還是會請地方政府來來研商以後修行最大的一個共識對好啦我想520之前先也不要給你壓力了齁所以至少520以後一個新的人士應該有新的作為啊因為你也知道所有朝野立委對於廢除這個娛樂稅的這個事情大家都正向看待沒有人反對啊"},{"start":16672.441,"end":16692.498,"text":"所以也建請部長你要從善如流該怎麼做好的事情早做晚做都要做其實我就是覺得很可惜那麼重要的財經部會首長坐在這邊可以說是冷飯熱炒重複在講這個議題"},{"start":16697.412,"end":16717.715,"text":"其實與其這樣,倒不如覺得你如果同意我們就趕快休息,或者下次讓他通過,我們趕快就休息。因為你還有很多事情可以去做的,很重要的事情可以做的,太多了。比如說現在股市也跌跌不休,破兩萬點。部長你覺得兩萬點站得住站不住?"},{"start":16722.276,"end":16749.509,"text":"2萬點有上去好像今天大概是跌100多點因為我一直在這邊也沒有去看這個股市的情況上週慘跌700多點對上週五是跌了400多點股市的波動當然一定會有上上下下那也有各有各自的因素部長你與其在這邊講了一個早上的18億的稅損的問題你待會趕快去救股市啊"},{"start":16750.988,"end":16770.592,"text":"國安基金會不會出手?國安基金當然會密切的關注股市的一個情形但是國安基金進場必須要符合國安基金的裡面的相關的規定而且要經過國安基金委員會的一個授權所以像中東外面如果戰爭持續擴大會不會影響?這個算不算是國安基金"},{"start":16771.593,"end":16772.614,"text":"那最近大概什麼時候會開個會?"},{"start":16792.671,"end":16801.763,"text":"國安基金的例會是每三個月開大概前一兩個禮拜才剛開過例會。其實就長期的看喔,國安基金都是賺錢啊。"},{"start":16803.519,"end":16820.872,"text":"而且你知道國安基金賺了多少,你有沒有算過?上一次進場大概有賺差不多100億,但是國安基金的目的並不是在賺錢,它國安基金的目的是在穩定市場,穩定基金市場。所以你國安基金一出手隨便就賺100多億,我們今天早上講的是18億,你這10年也才180億,所以拜託部長你趕快去賺錢吧。"},{"start":16827.21,"end":16829.011,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":16852.486,"end":16880.941,"text":"大陸兩岸一起來思考怎麼樣來推動兩岸的百年和平協定簽了以後我覺得台灣未來絕對不會輸於新加坡的更可以解決最重要本習慣性的年輕人長期低薪的問題當然像今天的黃主委也講了很多當然有一些議題不是你可以決定的但是解決"},{"start":16882.335,"end":16910.74,"text":"若干的問題提供保險公司在台灣更多的投資的機會也不是我的責任啊今天你如果讓我來當行政院長我趕快來做啊把環境做好把基礎擴大台積電也可以鼓勵他在台灣多發公債啊公司債啊對不對還有很多很多啊但台灣也發了不多公債的部分全部的市場規模台灣現在是多少國債"},{"start":16914.076,"end":16939.842,"text":"目前大概是四五千億對啊那這也不是我的問題啊是你們沒有把環境做好讓這些受選公司沒有辦法回來投資啊對所以就是倒果為因整個就亂的套啊其實你就把台灣想成未來新加坡成功的模式我們怎麼做我不期盼你們說很厲害你們照抄就好啦"},{"start":16941.751,"end":16960.166,"text":"提出來的法案都是有所本的啊。不然你就照抄啊。徒立了誰?好到台灣的年輕人啊。好到誰?好到台灣未來的發展啊。所以希望說部長你可以多思考一下。那最後再問你就今天會不會過?啊?今天?"},{"start":16964.457,"end":16965.498,"text":"接下來請金管委員黃竺偉"},{"start":16990.933,"end":16998.178,"text":"王主委您好教委好我記得股市上兩萬點的時候我們在這邊討論請教您說兩萬點會不會變成是一個生活之日常"},{"start":17004.298,"end":17028.484,"text":"就是兩萬點就不會是那麼害怕的事情因為以前一萬點經過一萬點的時候我在財委會的時候股市上萬點還給人民好生活所以那時候我請大家吃雞排、吃珍奶那現在我在考量如果兩萬點能站得穩的話我跟以前一樣就是"},{"start":17029.701,"end":17031.262,"text":"我們今天討論到保險法第146條的部分"},{"start":17055.802,"end":17079.779,"text":"主委你覺得要不要讓他過?因為我今天聽了所有的委員的講法大家都是希望說資金回來建設台灣啊、遷留台灣啊但是瓜胡如果有好的機會那事實上主委你知道如果是身為行政院長未來的這個行政院長他要是聽到這個他會高興的不得了講來聽來太多事情都不用說"},{"start":17080.953,"end":17109.108,"text":"光是這6兆多的資金回來了以後你想想看台灣會變成怎麼樣在前提要有地緣政治各方面的和平啊馬上股市可能就上要是我來看起碼3萬點以上所以我們大概算的都是輕輕計較那個哇利率啊因為美國利率有5%我們的2%可能有多3%那個都小菜兩三碟啦"},{"start":17110.034,"end":17134.676,"text":"我在看的是整個台灣怎麼樣脫胎換骨坦白講我是在野黨我根本就不應該要來提這個帶動台灣大力發展讓執政黨可以穩穩的做下去的法案為什麼那我心裡在想就是無論如何我在國民黨開會的時候我們有那個花蓮那一場會議我說國民黨要重返執政也很簡單"},{"start":17136.377,"end":17157.354,"text":"第一個你不要唱衰台灣你要做多台灣讓台灣就一直好起來你不要說為了選票考量第二個多多照顧年輕人第三個培養更多的優秀年輕人的政治人物然後不斷的圖利人民其實我要講這個就是圖利嘛"},{"start":17158.223,"end":17171.802,"text":"保險公司也不要想說回來我被限制你怎麼會被限制呢大家都知道現在美國國力衰退我們現在在授錢公司在美國買的公債公司債券加一加有多少"},{"start":17174.635,"end":17192.105,"text":"應該有上兆以上,對不對?好幾兆,對。那你想想看,如果哪一天美國突然國力不斷地衰退下去,突然爆炸,就像俄羅斯當初受險控制投資、以色列的投資一樣,全部都血本無歸。那回來台灣不是更好嗎?"},{"start":17193.274,"end":17213.775,"text":"公共建設、高鐵、環台、韓國瑜、韓院長打通整個中央山脈,以後都是穩賺的。開放入客來台,這全部所有的觀光旅遊各方面都起來,好起來又要好到誰?好到年輕人。"},{"start":17215.185,"end":17241.628,"text":"就不會永遠是3萬5嘛因為3萬5不是現在第一天講年輕人第一季的這個情況已經講了10年講了20年本席只不過找一個地方希望有個突破點讓他可以脫胎換骨大家多多來思考一下所以本席所講的主委你憑良心想想看如果台灣有那麼好的投資機會未來台灣會不會更好"},{"start":17244.309,"end":17246.572,"text":"主委今天聽起來根本也沒有委員反對阿只是說循序漸進那主委今天要不要讓他通過"},{"start":17260,"end":17282.573,"text":"市委會跟委員報告我們報告有寫因為保險資金出去有它必要的原因那如果真的通過造成保險資金真的要逐漸要回流是會造成很多對保護權益的影響可不可以跟委員報告我們在公共建設方面本來就是不斷在努力是不是給我們一點時間我們再努力下去是好那今天就如你所願"},{"start":17284.595,"end":17301.106,"text":"我們就繼續等新的主委來但我希望說新主委來你交接的時候你要跟大家講說大家財委會所有委員的關心跟用心那希望督促他公共基礎建設長照的部分他要想辦法怎麼引導"},{"start":17301.846,"end":17317.551,"text":"因為當我們是民意代表我們就是建議而已好不好請你把這個精神傳承下去你如果講了好不好你下次也是當行政院副院長阿也不要說懷憂喪志我沒有懷憂喪志阿是好那就繼續努力謝謝"},{"start":17325.617,"end":17335.727,"text":"何欣淳委員何欣淳、何欣淳、何欣淳不在謝一鳳、謝一鳳、謝一鳳、謝一鳳不在游浩、游浩、游浩、游浩委員不在曾振淺、曾振淺、曾振淺委員不在蘇晶淺、蘇晶淺、蘇晶淺委員不在"},{"start":17343.422,"end":17343.502,"text":"好,那"},{"start":17358.789,"end":17378.572,"text":"今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢本次會議作如下決議一、說明及詢答完畢二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於週內以書面答覆為另要求期限者從其所定"},{"start":17379.562,"end":17404.333,"text":"三、娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案四案、廢止娛樂稅法兩案保險法第146條之四條文修正草案一案及保險法第177條條文修正草案及兩案請願案三案"},{"start":17405.151,"end":17420.638,"text":"我們就宣布則其繼續審查本次會議議程已進行完畢如果不在場委員補題書面質詢一併列入紀錄刊登公報並請議事人員協助處理散會"},{"start":17455.226,"end":17459.45,"text":"本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書"}]}},{"id":"151581","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151581","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336371c5913700d56e27dee175bc8e0be1adcb4691eb09bf4e276f48d881526639a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"13:08:13 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13:20:17","影片長度":"00:12:04","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-10"},"duration":724,"end_time":"2024-04-22T13:20:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T13:08:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1086,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（13時8分）主席、各位委員及出列席官員，大家好。主席，可否請財政部莊部長？"],["主席：莊部長。"],["羅委員明才：莊部長，辛苦了。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：看到大家到現在一點多都還在開會，實在於心不忍。如果你現在答應的話，我們就早一點休息。如果今天沒有辦法進入實質審查，你可不可以告訴大家，下一次或者一個月會讓它過？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個我剛剛已經說過，我們還是會請地方政府研商以後，尋求最大的共識。"],["羅委員明才：我想520之前先不要給你壓力，但是至少520以後，新的人事應該要有新的作為。你也知道所有朝野立委對於廢除娛樂稅都正向看待，沒有人反對，所以建請部長要從善如流。該怎麼做、好的事情早做晚做都要做，我覺得很可惜，那麼重要的財經部會首長坐在這邊，可以說是冷飯熱炒，重複在講這個議題，與其這樣倒不如你如果同意，我們就趕快休息，或是下次讓它通過，我們就趕快休息，因為你還有很多事情可以去做，很重要的事情可以做的太多了。譬如現在股市也跌跌不休，破兩萬點，部長，你覺得兩萬點站得住站不住？"],["莊部長翠雲：兩萬點有上去，今天好像是跌一百多點，因為我一直在這邊也沒有去看股市的情況。"],["羅委員明才：上週慘跌七百多點。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，上週五是跌了七百多點。"],["羅委員明才：市值就少了一兆多。"],["莊部長翠雲：股市的波動當然一定會有上上下下，也有各自的因素。"],["羅委員明才：所以，部長，與其在這邊講一個早上的18億稅損的問題，倒不趕快去救股市。國安基金會不會出手？"],["莊部長翠雲：國安基金當然會密切的關注股市的情形，但是國安基金進場必須要符合國安基金的相關規定，而且要經過國安基金委員會的授權。"],["羅委員明才：像中東那邊如果戰爭持續擴大，會不會影響？這個算不算是國安基金出手的選項之一？"],["莊部長翠雲：如果戰事繼續擴大或時間拉長的話，那還要有所謂資金的大量移動，影響到國際整個市場的穩定，我想這個有相關的一些條件在裡面。"],["羅委員明才：最近大概什麼時候會開會？"],["莊部長翠雲：國安基金的例會是每三個月開，大概前一、兩個禮拜才剛開過例會。"],["羅委員明才：就長期來看，國安基金都是賺錢，而且你知道國安基金賺了多少，有沒有算過？"],["莊部長翠雲：上一次進場大概有賺差不多100億，但是國安基金的目的並不是在賺錢，國安基金的目的是在穩定市場，穩定資金市場。"],["羅委員明才：部長，你想想看，國安基金一出手隨便就賺一百多億，我們今天早上講的是18億，乘以10年也才180億，所以拜託部長，你趕快去賺錢吧！"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我去賺錢。"],["羅委員明才：還有很多，事實上，你如果把臺灣的一些地緣政治關係解除，比如今天的保險法第一百四十六條之四，開放以後，臺灣不得了，我多麼期盼臺灣跟新加坡一樣，可以跟大陸兩岸一起來思考怎麼樣來推動兩岸的百年和平協定，簽了以後，我覺得臺灣未來絕對不會輸給新加坡的，更可以解決最重要的、本席所關心的年輕人長期低薪的問題，當然今天黃主委也講了很多，當然有一些議題不是你可以決定的，但是解決若干問題，提供保險公司在臺灣更多的投資機會，也不是我的責任啊！今天你如果讓我來當行政院長，我趕快來做，把環境做好，把基礎擴大，也可以鼓勵台積電在臺灣多發公司債啊，對不對？還有很多很多啊，但臺灣也發得不多。公債的部分，全部的市場規模臺灣現在是多少？國債。"],["陳署長柏誠：目前大概是四、五千億。"],["羅委員明才：對啊，這也不是我的問題啊！是你們沒有把環境做好，讓這些壽險公司沒有辦法回來投資啊！所以就是倒果為因，整個就亂了套啊！其實你就把臺灣想成未來的新加坡成功的模式，我們要怎麼做，我不期盼你們很厲害，你們照抄就好了啊！我所提出來的法案都是有所本的，不然你就照抄啊！圖利了誰？好到臺灣的年輕人啊！好到誰？好到臺灣未來的發展啊！所以希望部長，你可以多思考一下。","最後再問你，就是今天會不會過？"],["莊部長翠雲：今天？召委在這邊。"],["羅委員明才：如你所願啦，因為你可能覺得需要點時間多多來思考。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：如你所願，但是我也希望過一、兩個月以後能如我所願，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["羅委員明才：一人一次嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：互有往來，謝謝部長。","接下來請金管會黃主委，黃主委你好。"],["黃主任委員天牧：召委好。"],["羅委員明才：我記得股市上兩萬點的時候，我們在這邊討論，我請教你說兩萬點會不會變成一個生活日常，就是兩萬點不會是大家那麼害怕的事情，一萬點經過了，以前一萬點的時候，我在財委會的時候說股市上萬點，還給人民好生活，所以那時候我請大家吃雞排、吃珍奶，現在我在考量，如果兩萬點能站得穩的話，我跟以前一樣就是雞排再加上珍奶，因為以前有人沒吃到嘛，所以兩萬點我們再慶祝一下，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，看您自己決定，我沒有特別……"],["羅委員明才：好啦，那我們就希望兩萬點要站好，至少要持續長一點的時間。我們今天討論到保險法第一百四十六條的部分，主委，你覺得要不要讓它過？因為我今天聽了所有委員的講法，大家都希望資金回來建設臺灣、錢留臺灣，但是括弧裡面的是如果有好的機會。事實上，主委，你知道如果身為未來的行政院長，他要是聽到這個，他會高興得不得了，講難聽一點，太多事情都不用做了，光是這六兆多的資金回來以後，你想想看臺灣會變成怎麼樣？但前提是要有地緣政治各方面的和平啦，那股市可能馬上就漲，要是我來看起碼三萬點以上。所以我們在算的都是斤斤計較那個利率，因為美國利率有5%，我們的2%，可能有多3%，那個都是小菜兩、三碟啦，我在看的是整個臺灣怎麼樣脫胎換骨。坦白講我是在野黨，根本就不應該要來提這個帶動臺灣大力發展、讓執政黨可以穩穩的做下去的法案，為什麼？我心裡在想，就是無論如何，我在國民黨開會的時候，我們在花蓮那一場會議，我說國民黨要重返執政也很簡單，第一、你不要唱衰臺灣，你要做多臺灣，臺灣就會一直好起來，不要為了選票考量；第二、多多照顧年輕人；第三、培養更多的優秀年輕的政治人物，然後不斷的圖利人民。其實我要講這個就是圖利嘛！保險公司也不要想回來會被限制，怎麼會被限制呢？大家都知道，現在美國國力衰退，我們壽險公司在美國買的公債、公司債券加一加有多少？"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該有上兆以上。"],["羅委員明才：好幾兆，對不對？你想想看，如果美國國力不斷的衰退下去，哪一天突然爆炸，就像當初俄羅斯壽險公司投資以色列一樣，全部都血本無歸，那回來臺灣不是更好嗎？公共建設像高鐵環臺，韓國瑜院長的打通整個中央山脈啊，那個以後都是穩賺的嘛；開放陸客來臺啊，觀光旅遊各方面全部都好起來，好到誰？好到年輕人啊！就不會永遠是三萬五嘛，因為三萬五不是現在第一天講，年輕人低薪的情況已經講了10年、20年，本席只不過希望找一個地方可以有個突破點，讓他可以脫胎換骨，大家多多來思考一下。所以本席所講的，主委，你憑良心想想看，如果臺灣有那麼好的投資機會，未來臺灣會不會更好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我想我瞭解委員深謀遠慮，都是為了國家的發展，我們非常敬佩，謝謝，有一些顧慮啦。"],["羅委員明才：主委，今天聽起來根本也沒有委員反對啊，只是說循序漸進，所以今天要不要讓它通過？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，跟委員報告，我們報告有寫，因為保險資金出去有它必要的原因，如果真的通過，造成保險資金真的要逐漸回流，會對保戶權益造成很多的影響，可不可以跟委員報告，我們在公共建設方面本來就不斷在努力，是不是給我們一點時間，我們再努力下去？"],["羅委員明才：好，那今天就如你所願，我們再繼續等新的主委來，我希望新主委來，你交接的時候，你要跟他講財委會所有委員的關心跟用心，督促他對於公共基礎建設、長照的部分要想辦法怎麼引導，因為官是他在當，我們是民意代表，我們就是建議而已。"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解。"],["羅委員明才：請你把這個精神傳承下去。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，謝謝委員指導。"],["羅委員明才：你如果講得好，搞不好你下次也是當行政院副院長啊，不要懷憂喪志！"],["黃主任委員天牧：我沒有懷憂喪志啊！"],["羅委員明才：好，那就繼續努力。謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅委員。","何欣純委員、何欣純、何欣純，何欣純不在。","謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯，謝衣鳯不在。","游顥、游顥、游顥，游顥委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭正鈐委員不在。","蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉，蘇清泉委員不在。"],["主席（羅委員明才）：今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢，本次會議作如下決議：一、說明及詢答完畢；二、委員質詢未及答復或請補充資訊，請相關部會於1週內以書面答復，委員另要求期限者從其所定；三、「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」4案、廢止「娛樂稅法」2案、「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」1案、「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」2案及請願案3案擇期繼續審查。","本日會議議程已進行完畢，如有不在場委員補提書面質詢，一併列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請議事人員協助處理。","現在散會。","散會（13時21分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 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莊部長莊部長辛苦了委員好看到大家現在一點都還開會實在於心不忍齁其實我們如果說你現在答應的話我們就早點就休息啊"},{"start":21.226,"end":33.058,"text":"或者是說今天如果說沒有辦法進入實質的審查那你可不可以告訴大家說你下一次或是一個月的時候會讓他過?這個我剛剛已經說過就是說我們還是會請地方政府來來研商以後修行最大的一個共識對"},{"start":43.953,"end":68.65,"text":"好啦我想520之前先也不要給你壓力啦齁所以至少520以後一個新的人士應該有新的作為啊因為你也知道所有朝野立委對於廢除這個娛樂稅的這個事情大家都正向看待沒有人反對啊所以也建請就是部長你要從善如流啊"},{"start":69.895,"end":84.92,"text":"則是該怎麼做好的事情早做晚做都要做其實我就是覺得很可惜那麼重要財經部的首長坐在這邊就是可以說是冷飯熱炒重複在講這個議題"},{"start":89.833,"end":112.101,"text":"其實與其這樣倒不如覺得你如果同意我們就趕快休息或者下次讓他通過我們趕快就休息因為你還有很多事情可以去做的很重要的事情可以做的太多了比如說現在股市也跌跌不休破兩萬點部長你覺得兩萬點站得住站不住"},{"start":114.719,"end":141.935,"text":"兩萬點有上去好像今天好像大概是跌一百多因為我一直在這邊也沒有去看看這個股市的情況上週慘跌七百多點對上週五是跌了四百多點股市的波動當然一定會有上上下下那也有各有各自的因素部長你與其在這邊講了一個早上的18億的稅損的問題是你待會趕快去救股市啊"},{"start":143.411,"end":163.032,"text":"國安基金會不會出手?國安基金當然會密切的關注股市的一個情形但是國安基金進場必須要符合國安基金的裡面的相關的規定而且要經過國安基金委員會的一個授權像中東外面如果戰爭持續擴大會不會影響?這個算不算是國安基金"},{"start":164.013,"end":165.054,"text":"那最近大概什麼時候會開個會?"},{"start":185.112,"end":194.205,"text":"國安基金的例會是每三個月大概前一兩個禮拜才剛開過例會。其實就長期的看,國安基金都是賺錢啊。"},{"start":195.959,"end":213.306,"text":"而且你知道國安基金賺了多少?你有沒有算過?上一次進場大概有賺差不多100億,但是國安基金的目的並不是在賺錢,它國安基金的目的是在穩定市場,穩定資金市場。所以你國安基金一出手隨便就賺100多億喔?我們今天早上講的是18億,你這10年也才180億,所以拜託部長你趕快去賺錢吧。"},{"start":219.653,"end":243.936,"text":"我去賺錢是吧還有很多事實上你如果把台灣的一些地緣政治關係把它解除掉比如說今天的保險法146條之事開放以後回來的話台灣不得了我都多麼期盼說台灣跟新加坡一樣我們可以跟"},{"start":244.926,"end":273.361,"text":"大陸兩岸一起來思考怎麼樣來推動兩岸的百年和平協定簽了以後我覺得台灣未來絕對不會輸於新加坡的更可以解決最重要本習慣性的年輕人長期低薪的問題當然像今天的黃主委也講了很多當然有一些議題不是你可以決定的但是解決"},{"start":274.758,"end":303.179,"text":"若干的問題提供保險公司在台灣更多的投資的機會也不是我的責任啊今天你如果讓我來當行政院長我趕快來做啊把環境做好把基礎擴大台積電也可以鼓勵他在台灣多發公債啊公司債啊對不對還有很多很多啊但台灣也發了不多公債的部分全部的市場規模台灣現在是多少國債"},{"start":306.519,"end":332.282,"text":"目前大概是四五千億對啊那這也不是我的問題啊是你們沒有把環境做好讓這些受選公司沒有辦法回來投資啊對所以就是倒果為因整個就亂的套啊其實你就把台灣想成未來新加坡成功的模式我們怎麼做我不期盼你們說很厲害你們照抄就好了啊"},{"start":333.775,"end":334.195,"text":"今天會不會過?今天?"},{"start":356.894,"end":357.935,"text":"接下來請金管委員黃竺偉"},{"start":383.356,"end":390.44,"text":"王主委您好教委好我記得股市上兩萬點的時候我們在這邊討論請教您說兩萬點會不會變成是一個生活之日常"},{"start":396.738,"end":420.93,"text":"就是兩萬點就不會是那麼害怕的事情因為以前一萬點經過一萬點的時候我在財委會的時候股市上萬點還給人民好生活所以那時候我請大家吃雞排、吃珍奶那現在我在考量如果兩萬點能站得穩的話我跟以前一樣就是"},{"start":422.125,"end":423.705,"text":"我們今天討論到保險法第146條的部分"},{"start":448.223,"end":472.196,"text":"主委你覺得要不要讓他過?因為我今天聽了所有的委員的講法大家都是希望說資金回來建設台灣啊、遷留台灣啊但是刮胡如果有好的機會那事實上主委你知道如果是身為行政院長未來的這個行政院長他要是聽到這個他會高興的不得了講來聽來太多事情都不用說"},{"start":473.376,"end":501.542,"text":"光是這6兆多的資金回來了以後你現在看台灣會變成怎麼樣在前提要有地緣政治各方面的和平啊馬上股市可能就上要是我來看起碼3萬點以上所以我們在算的都是斤斤計較那個哇利率啊因為美國利率有5%我們的2%可能有多3%那個都小菜兩三碟啦"},{"start":502.458,"end":527.113,"text":"我在看的是整個台灣怎麼樣脫胎換骨坦白講我是在野黨我根本就不應該要來提這個帶動台灣大力發展讓執政黨可以穩穩的做下去的法案為什麼那我心裡在想啊就是無論如何我在國民黨開會的時候我們有那個花蓮那一場會議我說國民黨要重返執政也很簡單"},{"start":528.917,"end":548.676,"text":"一、不要唱衰台灣,你要做多台灣,讓台灣就一直好起來,不要說為了選票考量。二、多多照顧年輕人。三、培養更多的優秀年輕人的政治人物,然後不斷的圖利人民。其實我要講這個就是圖利。"},{"start":550.663,"end":564.242,"text":"保險公司也不要想說回來我被限制你怎麼會被限制的大家都知道現在美國國力衰退我們現在在授權公司在美國買的公債公司債券加一加有多少"},{"start":567.077,"end":581.472,"text":"應該有上兆以上,對不對?好幾兆,對。那你想想看如果哪一天美國突然國力不斷地衰退下去,突然爆炸。就像俄羅斯當初授權控制投資、以色列的投資一樣,全部都血本無歸。"},{"start":583.476,"end":606.212,"text":"那回來台灣不是更好嗎?公共建設、高鐵、環台、韓國瑜、韓院長打通整個中央山脈,以後都是穩賺的。開放、入客來台,這全部所有的觀光旅遊各方面都起來,好起來又要好到誰?好到年輕人。"},{"start":607.628,"end":634.051,"text":"就不會永遠是3萬5嘛因為3萬5不是現在第一天講年輕人第一季的這個情況已經講了10年講了20年本席只不過找一個地方希望有個突破點讓他可以脫胎換骨大家多多來思考一下所以本席所講的主委你憑良心想想看如果台灣有那麼好的投資機會未來台灣會不會更好"},{"start":636.769,"end":638.991,"text":"主委今天聽起來根本也沒有委員反對阿只是說循序漸進那主委今天要不要讓他通過"},{"start":652.443,"end":674.996,"text":"是否可以跟委員報告我們報告有寫因為保險資金出去有它必要的原因那如果真的通過造成保險資金真的要逐漸要回流是會造成很多對保護權益的影響可不可以跟委員報告我們在公共建設方面本來就是不斷在努力是不是給我們一點時間我們再努力下去是好那今天就如你所願"},{"start":677.037,"end":693.526,"text":"我們就繼續等新的主委來但我希望說新主委來你交接的時候你要跟大家講說大家財委會所有委員的關心跟用心那希望督促他公共基礎建設長照的部分他要想辦法怎麼引導"},{"start":694.206,"end":696.728,"text":"何欣淳委員何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳不在謝一鳳謝一鳳謝一鳳謝一鳳不在"}]}},{"id":"151580","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151580","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3363411369deee59be67dee175bc8e0be1adcb4691eb09bf4e2d5bbd21d65eb54615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"13:02:23 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13:08:06","影片長度":"00:05:43","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-10"},"duration":343,"end_time":"2024-04-22T13:08:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T13:02:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1059,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（13時2分）謝謝主席。本席請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：莊部長，辛苦了。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。首先恭喜您繼續留任，本席也要說大家辛苦了，不只是您，今天來了那麼多單位，包括財政部、金管會、主計總處、教育部等各部會，還有包含跟娛樂稅有關的各縣市政府稅務局主管，大家真的辛苦了，現在已經是下午一點多，但是大家都還坐在這邊開會。部長知道最大的原因，剛剛很多委員都提出來了，今天不是第一次要審這個法案、第一次討論這個議題，財政部在跟地方開會的時候，如果中央可以有一個解決的辦法，地方政府怎麼會拒絕呢？怎麼會反彈呢？本席想請教您，娛樂相關產業，包括體育、藝文、表演等鼓勵，對於他們租稅的合理待遇和機制給予支持，您認同嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：相關產業我們都非常重視，有關文化、藝文部分有文創法，也有文化創意補助條例，都有相關規定給予相關的補助跟獎勵。"],["徐委員欣瑩：就振興運動產業的角度，您認為應該繼續對高爾夫球場徵營業稅嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：您是說營業稅還是娛樂稅？"],["徐委員欣瑩：娛樂稅。"],["莊部長翠雲：高爾夫球場的部分，您知道上一次在娛樂稅法修正的時候，曾經提出要把保齡球館、撞球場以及高爾夫球場刪除掉，不要課娛樂稅。最後在討論的時候，針對高爾夫球場，委員之間並沒有達成共同的意見。高爾夫球場因為面積比較大，耗費土地資源，還有對水土保持等等的影響，所以在那一次修法的時候就沒有把這個部分拿掉。針對高爾夫球場的部分，還要有社會上的共識。"],["徐委員欣瑩：什麼共識？高爾夫也是一種很健康的運動，應該不需要課娛樂稅才對。"],["莊部長翠雲：高爾夫球當然也是一個運動，至於要不要課娛樂稅，在上一次討論的時候就已經提過。"],["徐委員欣瑩：您覺得高爾夫球是有錢人打的，所以你要課他稅嗎？是因為這樣嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：並不因為是有錢人打的，所以要課稅，現在高爾夫球場的收費當然也有不同。這個地方還是就有關水土資源的保育及外部的一些成本因素考量，所以上一次修的時候在立法院也沒有共識說要把它拿掉。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這一次立法院有共識，是不是就可以拿掉？"],["莊部長翠雲：這一次修正委員有不同的意見要考慮，當然也要考慮地方政府，尤其在鄉鎮的部分……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，你一直都拿……"],["莊部長翠雲：尤其對鄉鎮來說是一個很重要的財源。"],["徐委員欣瑩：太好了！你就是一直拿鄉鎮市公所當擋箭牌。你知道為什麼你當財政部長，不是當財政科長嗎？你知道為什麼嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是擋箭牌，對於地方政府的意見，我們還是必須要尊重。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對。剛剛每個委員都說了，如果財政部跟他們溝通的時候，有拿出彌補的財源或者說可以從財政收支劃分法，甚至統籌分配稅款彌補這一塊，他們怎麼會反對？每個委員都這樣質詢了，今天大家會坐這麼久，也是因為財政部就是沒有拿出具體的方案，特別在報告裡面就直接表示，沒有適合彌補財源的方式。部長，你知道什麼路最好走嗎？就是放棄的路，兩手一攤說沒有辦法，中央政府不可以這樣。本席也要在這邊表達，我簽署羅明才委員的提案是非常痛苦的決定，因為我們覺得娛樂稅要與時俱進，但是本席的轄區新竹縣的高爾夫球場在全國排名第3多，所以還是要為地方請命，希望中央可以拿出辦法。剛剛伍麗華委員還有鄭天財委員都給您很多意見，還包括洪孟楷委員，我相信今天所有委員都給財政部意見，所以希望財政部不要兩手一攤、不要甩鍋給地方政府，你們要有作為，部長可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員的意見我們都虛心聆聽。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員。","接著請羅明才委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 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請張司長"},{"start":23.732,"end":52.072,"text":"市長我們噪音稽查就是一件很困難的事情我們2023年全國的噪音稽查處分概況來看這全國大概有10萬件有10萬件的稽核的數大概從稽核的結果來看有5萬件是無法監測或者未發現"},{"start":53.925,"end":68.316,"text":"站總案件量的五成而且因為這一些噪音的稽查案件中大概有七成六是陳情的陳情案"},{"start":69.827,"end":99.427,"text":"那這樣子的話因為沒有辦法因為有民眾陳情那我們又再集合的效率來看是沒有那麼高的這個會嚴重影響人民對於政府執法的信賴所以這個無法監測跟未發現結案的原因是什麼"},{"start":101.267,"end":125.135,"text":"我想跟委員報告第一個噪音本身來講它如果不是固定的機具或者是固定的場所發生出來的那這種檢舉案想要去抓得到其實難度非常高就是跑來跑去證據保存非常困難對不對對你的意思就是這樣不像空氣空氣都已經很難了噪音更難對"},{"start":127.055,"end":146.912,"text":"一下子就過了嗎?對可是問題在哪裡我們知道你們有沒有解決的方法所以我們在處理事情是這樣子我們首先要先發現問題那現在知道最大的困難就在證據的保存"},{"start":148.359,"end":174.777,"text":"那怎麼克服?這我想跟各位報告我現在構想裡面就是說因為噪音的量測就是你要即時量測到發生噪音很難所以有一個我們可能接下來會嘗試用大數據的方式從檢舉的地方我們用圖示的方式標出來之後哪些地方最容易在什麼時段發生噪音的"},{"start":175.317,"end":202.496,"text":"事件導致沉潛我們可能我們那個設備剛剛前面有提到就我們設備有些移動式的我們就以這些點位來佈設這個做法我覺得還不錯用這種方式試試看對要不然其實沒有證據就沒有辦法處罰對不對那保存證據這麼困難我覺得這個方法可以那除了這個以外還有沒有其他的"},{"start":204.062,"end":223.65,"text":"這是其中目前想到就手頭上有的資訊可以掌握到的那我另外再問一個問題就是因為我們從明年開始排氣管的噪音就列為正式的檢驗項目 對不對"},{"start":226.317,"end":243.099,"text":"如果你改裝的話你需要經濟那他是必須要就是改裝排氣管的民眾可以自行委託噪音的實驗室或是地方"},{"start":244.764,"end":246.205,"text":"然後明年也必須要沒有檢驗的話也必須要開罰"},{"start":274.256,"end":298.245,"text":"沒有檢驗的話改裝之後沒有登記就是道交條例這邊會處罰那可是現在來看是像到今年的第一季改裝排氣管的登錄系統統計是13000那地方環保局跟實驗室已經處理的是4600"},{"start":300.886,"end":329.46,"text":"整體的執行率大概只有35%目前執行率這麼低,原因是什麼?檢測的量能不夠?因為我們去年底開始決定要這樣做之後到今年其實有一段時間讓環保局去籌備所以剛開始會比較慢而且2月6日碰到過年所以那個工作天數其實是比較少目前大概30%我們估算以這個速度下去應該8月底可以消化完"},{"start":330.14,"end":330.28,"text":"請副署長"},{"start":358.157,"end":386.514,"text":"委員好副主長好副主長因為你們很少有機會到胃環所以今天本席就跟你探討兩個有關警察人力的問題因為警察的操勤加班其實已經變成常態變成常態常態中又有另外一個病態"},{"start":389.906,"end":417.484,"text":"就是警情的加班是這樣子算大概月資信奉加專業加給除以240所以假如說剛新進的行政警察他的月資信奉加專業加給除以240下來他其實不到"},{"start":420.963,"end":438.801,"text":"基本工資他未達基本工資不要說加班還要算還要乘以1.33、1.66所以不算以後這個我覺得對於新進的員警太不公平了"},{"start":441.377,"end":465.488,"text":"有沒有解決的辦法?感謝委員對我們基層同仁的關心啦因為事實上從我們大法官的785號的解釋有關健康前的立法旨意那我們照這個立法旨意我們定一個規定定一個辦法就是我們警察輪班輪休人員的勤休的規定的要點"},{"start":466.548,"end":480.219,"text":"我知道你們這個就是根據那個要點來的嘛我現在的意思是說你們能不能把要點就是最基本的提高到最低工資啦這個已經是最"},{"start":481.96,"end":482.701,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":498.26,"end":521.632,"text":"因為對我們新進的、剛畢業的或新進的因為他的底薪比較低照剛剛委員所已經很瞭解的除以240的這些總薪資他一個小時可能172那依照我們的規定依照我們這個辦法裡面就是一個人的法定的工作的熟悉每天都要8個小時那操勤加班的操勤的熟悉每天2至4個小時"},{"start":522.833,"end":545.502,"text":"那最高一個月不能操勤、操時扶勤不能超過100個小時在這個原則下我們這些年資比較淺的同仁他一個月要領到一萬九、最高一萬九他是有困難的副主長你想一個月操勤100個小時那個等於是用命在換了"},{"start":547.003,"end":573.275,"text":"那用命換都換不到平均下來最低基本工資這個我覺得對於年輕的、新進的員警太殘忍好不好我知道你在這邊沒有辦法做出很完整的答覆不過我還是必須要點出來你們回去好好的做我個人覺得最少必須要用最低基本薪資、工資來計算"},{"start":576.836,"end":583.742,"text":"我個人的看法最低最低啦像你們現在這個算起來才176我們剛新進的它的縫點比較低我現在的意思就是說你最少最少"},{"start":598.354,"end":619.767,"text":"你想嘛,一個月加班100點鐘,那個真的是已經算是很殘忍了那他加班100個小時反而平均下來拿不到勞工的基本時薪,這個就更悲慘"},{"start":620.247,"end":632.219,"text":"但我們現在跟委員報告我們現在經過現在我們給112人給他統計平均分析我們的營警的操行服勤操時服勤平均差不多55個小時棚委是55.9個小時那我們的營警因為"},{"start":635.542,"end":663.883,"text":"我們是要兼顧我們的健康情跟任務、治安的需求來做綜合評估所以這是一個情果一致性那超時扶勤它是屬於一種補償性不是一種固定扶勤制55個小時其實就等於每天要加班超過2.5啦所以這個就是我時間到了所以我也講一下就是說我一直覺得警察的勤務呢"},{"start":664.924,"end":674.788,"text":"越來越繁重,然後你們缺額一直不補。以澎湖縣現在來看,就是說它的編制原額要850億,那現在的預算原額只有750億。這個缺額超過10%啊。"},{"start":691.369,"end":716.575,"text":"現在狀況是這樣我們的預算是751個噴霧線警察局751個那現在是683個我們現在切68個那我們的這個部分跟委員報告我們會等到我們的會今天在我們的官校或警大警大或是警專畢業或是我們定期統調的時候我們會優先來拍補噴霧線警察局的缺額"},{"start":718.235,"end":744.134,"text":"副部長謝謝就是說優先把離島的缺額補滿這個概念也對啦因為在本島同一條配就是互相支援比較快速啦可是我現在講的是整體國家的警政問題啦就是說因為這個不是只有澎湖有缺是全台灣都缺啦"},{"start":744.594,"end":768.926,"text":"不過副部長剛剛承諾的優先把澎湖的缺額補足這個本席是跟你謝謝啦因為這個也有道理因為離島畢竟有獨立性嘛他在警力的統籌調配跟留用是跟本島有區別嘛"},{"start":772.849,"end":788.503,"text":"這兩個問題我知道副組長今天沒有辦法做明確的答覆可是我還是必須要提出來因為警察我還是拿一句話就是警察的情誤其實是越來越繁重那以剛剛我們的討論"},{"start":790.905,"end":791.105,"text":"謝謝楊曜委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"151578","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151578","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3367dc81507af1c1f9c7dee175bc8e0be1adcb4691eb09bf4e2898803f44d02bd235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：部長辛苦了，因為你要繼續當部長，所以應該希望很快的來處理娛樂稅法的問題。娛樂稅法第一條沒有立法的目的，直接就是說要依本法規定來徵收。如果我們從過去歷史的解釋來看，民國69年以前徵收筵席娛樂稅，後來就做了一個修正，主要還是地方政府的收入，主要目的即在「寓禁於徵」，藉選擇奢侈性較高之娛樂消費行為課稅，改善社會奢靡的風氣，當然這個都已經改變，已經不是了。我們看娛樂稅法第二條，你說它奢侈嗎？也不是，所以這個已經是一個很普遍、是一個日常所應該要有的。顯然按照你的報告就是說，這十八點多億將近19億，考量的是地方政府的稅收，所以怎麼去解決地方政府的稅收，你們報告裡面提到這是鄉鎮市重要的財源，但是並不是所有的鄉鎮市，像我們原鄉大概就課不到，對不對？原鄉部落沒有，是比較集中在都會區的鄉鎮市區，所以這個部分你們要做一個很具體的分析，對不對？像臺北市、新北市，他們不同意嗎？何況它的區都已經不是鄉鎮了，所以這個部分要很具體的做分析，才能夠做論斷，才能夠去解決問題，所以這個部分給財政部一個方向。","監察院的糾正文提到相關這些，這個是比較早的，是九十幾年的，然後監察院97年糾正案的一個結案是針對93年的，你們也做了一個說明，不管怎麼樣，我們回到這裡，這麼多的委員都質詢了，你聽了這麼多，具體要能夠不影響鄉鎮市很簡單，就是補助嘛！我們一看要以哪一個年度，假設我們現在修法，我們就以112年度這些鄉鎮本來會收的娛樂稅，中央就補助，以後就照這個額度，這是一個最快的方式，對不對？這個部分對中央政府、對行政院來講，19億不算多。部長的看法如何？"],["莊部長翠雲：我知道委員認為19億的金額不是很高，但是對地方的財政自主來說並不是很好，他們還是希望能夠有自主權，而且我們也召開地方政府的相關會議，他們並不認同要廢止，但是項目跟稅率可以再做一些調整，就是與時俱進的做一些調整。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：部長，那個會議絕對沒有提中央會補助，絕對沒有提，對不對？他們當然就會反對，當然希望能夠維持。如果你開會議說中央絕對會補助，就以你112年度的收入全額補助，誰會反對，他也麻煩，對不對？是不是用這種方式？如果是這種方式也不用開會了，對不對？你做政策決定，然後下次修這個條文的時候、審查條文的時候就同意，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：雖然財政部沒有說到補助，但是財劃法以及財政紀律法裡面都有規定，民意機關或各級政府如果修正或者是廢止相關法律而致收入減少的話，都要覓妥替代財源，事實上，這在法條裡面都已經明定了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：那個條文我很清楚，是說如果會減少的時候。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你明定不會減少就沒有那個問題，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們逐條的時候討論。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。","接著請黃捷委員、黃捷委員、黃捷委員，黃捷委員不在。","鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱不在。","請徐欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 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對不對所以這個部分對一個中央政府對行政院來講19億不算多部長你如何"},{"start":227.515,"end":252.208,"text":"委員我知道您認為說這個19億的金額不是很高但是這個對地方的財政自主來說其實並不是很好他們還是希望能夠有自主權而且我們也召開地方政府的相關會議他們並不認同要廢止並不認同要廢止但是項目跟稅率是可以做一些再做一些調整我覺得就是與時俱進的做一些調整"},{"start":254.39,"end":267.468,"text":"部長,那個會議絕對沒有提說中央會補助,絕對沒有提嘛,對不對?他們當然就會反對啊,當然希望能夠維持啊。如果你開這個會議說"},{"start":269.918,"end":290.794,"text":"中央絕對會補助就以112年度的這個你的收入 對不對然後我就全額補助誰會反對啊他也麻煩啊 對不對這個絕對用這種方式如果是這種方式"},{"start":291.803,"end":302.419,"text":"也不用開會啦 對不對你政策決定然後我們下次修這個條文的時候審查這個條文的時候就同意"},{"start":303.888,"end":331.985,"text":"可以嗎?雖然財政部沒有說這個補助但是呢根據財化法以及財政紀律法裡面都有規定這個民意機關或各級政府如果去修正或者是廢止相關法律至於收入減少的話都要密託財源補助替代的財源是這個事實上在法條裡面都已經有明明的那個條我很清楚是是說如果會減少的時候對你就是"},{"start":332.845,"end":350.5,"text":"民定說不會減少就沒有那個問題了。好不好?是,謝謝委員,是,謝謝委員。好,以上,謝謝。謝謝鄭天才委員。接著我們請黃潔委員、黃潔委員、黃潔委員、黃潔委員不在。鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌不在。徐信穎委員。"}]}},{"id":"151577","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151577","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c33643de585a3e1bdd387dee175bc8e0be1adcb4691eb09bf4e2a91a364a40a391765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"12:44:11 - 12:56:16","影片長度":"00:12:05","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-10"},"duration":725,"end_time":"2024-04-22T12:56:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T12:44:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":997,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（12時44分）主席好，有請財政部、金管會，謝謝。"],["主席：請莊部長及黃主委，辛苦了。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好、主委好。前幾天，4月19號的新聞，我們有看到泛公股華南銀行香港分行違反洗錢規定，遭到當地政府開罰3,680萬，照理說財政部、臺銀有共同持股，可是我們在財政部的新聞稿專區好像沒看到、隻字不提；金管會作為我國金融監理機構，我們的銀行遭到他國銀行的監理機構重額裁罰，在新聞專區也是沒有看到。所以在這邊想要瞭解一下，華南銀行遭到香港政府的重額裁罰，這是政治問題還是他們的疏失？看一下2016年兆豐銀行紐約分行當時違反洗錢防制法遭到紐約州金融署處以臺灣史上最高罰款1.8億美金，當時提出兆豐紐約分行有六大問題，像內控不佳、疑似洗錢的匯款沒有申報，或者是對客戶的實地查核不確實、風控政策不明，或者稽核的季報沒有依規定送總行，又或者它漠視金融檢查報告不回應等等，所以想要瞭解一下，先問一下主委，金管會有沒有去瞭解這個是不是有違反相關的一些法制？"],["黃主任委員天牧：它當然是有違反的缺失，可是它不是真正的洗錢，它處理警示帳戶累積過多，沒有及時依照香港金管局的規定去處理，所以給予的處分……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，所以是一個小缺失？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這不是有一個交易是真正違反防制洗錢。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，跟洗錢無關啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：按照我們財政部派任公民營事業機構的管理要點，如果我們的內部稽核、內部控制有遭到調降，或有受到國內外主管機關裁罰的情事，立即要以書面報告向財政部說明事件的經過、處置的情形以及可能的影響。不知道財政部這個地方有沒有掌握到什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：有的，華南銀行確實有通報這個重大的事件，也通報給財政部，然後這個事情大概就是剛剛如主委所說的，事實上是在107年以前的事情，就是有關那個系統的有效驗證做不好，以至於有關警示案件大量產生，而且是華南銀行的香港分行主動去跟香港的金管局自行匯報，那邊的金管局也要求他們要去改善，那事實上也改善了，也經過相關的委外顧問確認改善是有效的，這個部分都經過這樣的一個處理了。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長。因為8大公股行庫在香港都設有分行，所以這樣的一個個案我們還是需要通報各個銀行，看看他們有沒有違反香港的一些金管規定，對吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們一定會讓各個分行都要注意。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。再來請教一下金管會主委，請問您支不支持壽險業降低海外投資占比，回臺來挹注我國的產業發展？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們的報告希望維持現狀，但是維持現狀也可以同樣讓資金挹注我國的產業發展。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：跟主委報告，其實我這樣子聽，把我們的資金回流到臺灣，其實大家都覺得是一個方向、是一個目標，立意良善，但是我們也看到很多的聲音，擔憂如果是一次性的大量湧入，會很擔心說會不會造成一些金融上的波動，舉個例子來講，如果國外投資總額從現在的45%下降到25%，我們去把它設算，加計國際版債券的上限之後，也就是說會從65.25%下降到36.25%，跟目前實際的占比57.5%的差距會到達21.25%。如果去乘上壽險資金總額，如果以32兆來看，大概就是會有6.8兆因為超過上限，它會立即湧入到臺灣。這個金額到底是怎麼樣的狀況，我們也有去試算，如果以臺灣史上最高單月的淨匯入金額，在2023年的11月是3,521億，這個6.8兆就會是史上最高的19.3倍，請教一下主委，它會造成什麼影響，會讓臺幣飆升嗎？還是讓出口惡化？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我覺得這還不是直接的，直接的就是這些保戶的權益怎麼維護。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是。"],["黃主任委員天牧：這些投資出去，是因為保單的年期跟收益率需要他要到國外投資，那你回來如果沒有適當的標的，如何保障保戶的權益？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：那請教主委，您也講到了，為了要匹配我們的保單，所以我們也很想知道壽險資金在臺灣的可投資項目多不多？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實很多，有價證券、不動產、公共建設專案運用都可以去投資，股票也可以投資。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。主委，我們這樣子想，第一個就是您說的，就是顧全、保障這些保戶的權益是最優先的，但是把資金回流到臺灣也是一個方向、一個目標，所以我們也是希望能夠逐步的移回。更重要的是，我們比較期待能夠拓展一些可投資的國內項目，像上次我們有提到，其實長照機構我們就蠻希望有人來投資，所以這個部分就請我們的金管會務必要拿出一些作法、對策、態度，我想這個部分是我們對金管會的期待，主委您覺得呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，跟委員報告，今天報告第8頁就已經把我們過去鬆綁，讓他有控制權，降低風險係數的作法，按照跨年逐步跟委員做報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以我們的目標、方向就是跨年逐步下降嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有，我是說我都有把我們歷年來怎麼樣去協助都列出來在報告第8頁、第9頁，陳給委員參考，那我們會繼續努力。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝主委，您先回座。請教一下部長，因為我們今天也有來談娛樂稅，大家也都講的很多，我也不再贅述，不過我們的想法都是說，從2007年修正到現在2024年，真的啦！整個狀況都不同，光是我們看在疫情期間，我們非常鼓勵去振興我們的藝文產業，現在電影院也都沒人去了，其實我們是反過來去想要怎麼振興，可是我們在2007年修正的時候，像有一些保齡球館或者舞廳，他們的稅目已經刪除了，可是稅率卻是保留的，所以大家一直覺得這個部分是不是應該趁這個時候一併的來刪除，不曉得部長您怎麼看？"],["莊部長翠雲：上一次的委員提案大概做了一些修正，但是相對應的稅率那個部分並沒有做調整，所以未來在修的時候可以一併的去把它做一個調整，如同委員所說的這樣子才對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，所以會一併的來刪除修正？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，應該是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：另外一塊就是我們談到要針對一些稅目來去做處理的時候，財政部的回答，我聽到的大概都是說要聽地方政府的意見，所以想要請教一下部長，因為我們不太瞭解，也許你很瞭解，地方政府不同意，到底他是因為在意他的稅收減少，還是說他不希望這些稅目刪除，想要繼續消滅這些靡靡之音？"],["莊部長翠雲：主要還是在於稅收的減少，跟委員報告，尤其在縣裡面，他的鄉鎮市所收取的娛樂稅都是歸鄉鎮市，這對鄉鎮市來說是非常重要的一個財源，所以這個部分主要還是因為收入的問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我看到娛樂稅一年稅收大概19億，您覺得很多嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：19億當然在地方來說，某些部分還是很……對他們來說還是蠻重要的一個財源，因為各個地方譬如以鄉鎮來說，這個錢很重要。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以大家過去都提出很多解方，像是調高營業稅稅率或者做財劃法的修正、提高營業稅的統籌分配，又或者直接由中央編列預算補助、併入奢侈稅、開徵碳稅、地方政府開徵特別稅課，這是大家提出的各種解方，大概也不外乎這六種，聽起來最有可能的就是中央編列預算補助，一年19億，然後去分配一下，如果要找到一些替代財源也不難，像國產署也經常做清理的案件，或者是稅收增加的財源等等，所以在這個地方可不可以請部長您六選一？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，這六項當然我們都可以去研議，它各有其問題在裡面……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：有，我們歷年看到你們的回應，我們大概也都瞭解，總是要六選一的話，你選哪一個？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個不是說我今天在這邊選，我覺得我們必須好好的討論來做一個研議。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是跟地方政府討論？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然跟地方政府，然後再加上我們中央裡面……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：不跟立委討論？"],["莊部長翠雲：也要跟立委討論，立委當然是非常重要的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長，我是這樣覺得，因為我們的新政府要上任，賴清德總統他也提到文化建國的理念，所以我們真的是希望把一些屬於藝文產業類的，真的是可以拿掉了啦！如果真的覺得有一些是屬於高消費行為、奢侈的，那留著沒有關係，但是總是要做一些改變，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：促進這些產業的發展，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。接著我們請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 案；\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案","agenda_id":"1133201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.14034375,"end":3.0515937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.8278437500000004,"end":4.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.73909375,"end":5.920343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.7897187500000005,"end":5.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.03846875,"end":6.0553437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.0553437500000005,"end":6.257843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.257843750000001,"end":6.2915937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.2915937500000005,"end":6.392843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.50659375,"end":7.945343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.03346875,"end":11.607218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.09659375,"end":12.805343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.15971875,"end":13.851593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.98659375,"end":14.492843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.880968750000001,"end":19.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.504718750000002,"end":40.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.58159375,"end":47.213468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.02346875,"end":53.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.27159375,"end":60.375968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.98346875,"end":69.91034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.23096875,"end":95.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.21846875,"end":102.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.56346875000001,"end":107.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.65971875000001,"end":123.25221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.45034375,"end":137.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.27534375000002,"end":137.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.30909375000002,"end":139.01346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.56221875,"end":144.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.50221875,"end":145.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.25721875000002,"end":145.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.59471875,"end":180.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.96471875,"end":186.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.92159375,"end":193.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.09346875,"end":216.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.16784375,"end":204.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.40409375000002,"end":204.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.55846875,"end":232.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.93971875000003,"end":235.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.79159375,"end":248.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.49409375000002,"end":252.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.25721875000002,"end":257.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.29096875000002,"end":253.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.74596875000003,"end":257.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.96534375,"end":259.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.41221875,"end":261.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.38659375000003,"end":271.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.53284375000004,"end":356.19471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.19471875000005,"end":356.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.54909375,"end":370.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.74096875000004,"end":381.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.90784375000004,"end":383.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.62909375000004,"end":392.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.35784375000003,"end":435.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.38909375000003,"end":446.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":445.64909375,"end":450.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.81284375,"end":461.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.45284375000006,"end":459.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.08971875000003,"end":468.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.54534375000003,"end":462.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.18221875,"end":463.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.97471875,"end":468.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.00846875,"end":468.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.10971875,"end":468.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":468.26159375000003,"end":519.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.34596875000005,"end":468.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.6584687500001,"end":534.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":533.7534687500001,"end":536.7234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.39034375,"end":537.2803437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":536.9428437500001,"end":541.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.9209687499999,"end":545.12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2016年趙鋒銀行紐約分行當時違反洗錢防治法遭到紐約州的金融署除以台灣史上最高的罰款是1.8億的美金當時提出他們有6大問題像內控不佳、疑似洗錢的匯款沒有申報"},{"start":96.286,"end":122.936,"text":"或者是對客戶的實地查核不確實、封控政策不明、或者積核的寄報沒有依規定送總行又或者他漠視金融檢查報告不回應等等所以想要就是了解一下先問一下主委那今晚會有沒有去了解這個是不是有違反相關的一些法制"},{"start":124.445,"end":144.219,"text":"他當然是有違反的缺失可是他不是真正的洗錢是他處理警示賬戶累積過多沒有及時依照香港金管局的規定去處理所以給予的處分所以是一個小缺失這不是真正的有一個交易是真正違反防止洗錢跟洗錢無關"},{"start":145.52,"end":146.701,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":161.053,"end":179.987,"text":"到條件或有受到國內外主管機關財閥的情勢立即要以書面報告向財政部說明事件的經過處置的情形以及可能的影響那不知道財政部這個地方有沒有掌握到什麼"},{"start":181.244,"end":205.094,"text":"有的。華南銀行確實有通報這個重大的事件也通報給財政部然後這個事情大概就是剛剛如主委所說的事實上是在107年以前的事情就是有關那個系統的有效驗證做不好以至於有關警示案件大量產生而且是華南銀行的香港分行主動去跟香港的金管局去自己去匯報的那所以呢那個"},{"start":206.314,"end":218.117,"text":"那邊的金管局也要求他們要去改善那事實上也改善了也經過相關的委外的顧問經過改善是有效的這個部分都經過這樣的一個處理的好 謝謝部長那因為八大公股行庫在香港都設有分行所以這樣的一個個案呢我們還是需要是不是讓通報各個銀行看看他們有沒有違反香港的一些金管規定對吧"},{"start":233.121,"end":258.946,"text":"是,我們一定會讓各個分行都要注意好,謝謝那再來請教一下我們金管會的主委請問您支不支持受險業降低海外投資佔比回台來抑制我國的產業發展我們的報告我們希望維持現狀但是維持現狀也可以同樣讓資金抑制我國的產業發展那跟主委報告"},{"start":260.758,"end":279.024,"text":"我這樣聽,把我們的資金回流到臺灣其實大家都覺得是一個方向是一個目標,利益良善但是我們也看到很多的聲音只是擔憂如果是一次性的大量湧入"},{"start":280.144,"end":292.714,"text":"會很擔心說會不會造成一些金融上的一個波動那舉個例子來講如果說國外投資總額從現在的45%下降到25%那我們去把它設算加計這個國際版債券的上限之後也就是說會從65.25%下降到36.25%"},{"start":305.484,"end":326.897,"text":"那跟目前實際的佔比57.5%差距會到達21.25%如果去乘上受險資金總額如果以32兆來看那大概就是說會有6.8兆因為他超過上限所以他會立即的湧入到台灣"},{"start":327.978,"end":353.607,"text":"那這個金額到底是怎麼樣的一個狀況那我們也看到有去試算如果以台灣史上最高單月的淨匯入金額在2023年的11月是3521億那這個6.8兆就會是史上最高的19.3倍請教一下主委就是它會造成什麼影響會讓台幣飆升嗎還是讓出口惡化"},{"start":356.604,"end":381.431,"text":"我覺得這還不是直接的直接的就是這些保護的權益怎麼維護是這些投資出去是因為他的保單的年期跟收益力需要他要到國外投資那你回來如果沒有適當的標的如何保障保護的權益那請教就主委了對您也講到了為了要匹配我們的保單嘛那所以我們也會很想知道就是受險資金在台灣的可投資項目多不多"},{"start":384.656,"end":386.538,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":402.432,"end":428.919,"text":"把資金回流到臺灣也是一個方向、一個目標所以我們也是希望說能夠逐步的移回那更重要的是我們比較期待能夠拓展一些可投資的一些國內項目像上次我們有提到其實長照機構我們就蠻希望有人來投資所以這個部分就是請我們的金管會就是務必要拿出一些做法、對策、態度"},{"start":430.779,"end":432.16,"text":"主委您覺得呢?所以我們的目標方向就是跨年逐步下降嗎?"},{"start":451.555,"end":466.108,"text":"我都有把我們整個的歷年來怎麼樣去協助都列出來在這個報告第8月、第9月成為委員參考。那我們會繼續努力。好,謝謝主委。那我們先回座。那請教一下那個部長,因為我們今天也有來談娛樂稅。是。"},{"start":468.43,"end":483.74,"text":"那大家也都講了很多啦那我也就不再贅述不過我們的想法都是說從2007年修正到現在2024年真的啦整個狀況都不同光是我們看在疫情期間"},{"start":484.761,"end":502.475,"text":"我們非常鼓勵去振興我們的藝文產業那現在電影院也都沒人去了其實我們是反過來去想要怎麼振興可是我們在2007年修正的時候像有一些保齡球館啊"},{"start":503.135,"end":504.957,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復"},{"start":520.957,"end":540.606,"text":"上一次的修正委員提案大概做了一些修正但是相對應的稅率那個部分並沒有做調整所以未來在修的時候可以一併的去把它做一個調整如同委員所說的這樣子才對所以會一併的來三處修正那另外一塊就是我們談到要針對一些稅務來去做一個處理的時候"},{"start":546.224,"end":569.361,"text":"財政部的回答我聽到的大概都是說要聽地方政府的意見所以想要請教一下部長因為我們不太了解也許你很了解這個地方政府不同意到底他是因為在意他的稅收減少還是說他不希望這些稅務刪除想要繼續消滅這些迷你之音"},{"start":571.495,"end":585.713,"text":"主要還是在於稅收的減少跟委員報告尤其在縣裡面他的鄉鎮市所收取的娛樂稅都是歸鄉鎮市這對鄉鎮市來說是非常重要的一個財源所以這個部分主要還是因為這個收入的問題是那"},{"start":588.776,"end":602.709,"text":"我看到娛樂稅一年稅收大概19億,您覺得很多嗎?19億當然在地方來說某些部分還是對他們來說還是蠻重要的一個財源的,因為各個地方以鄉鎮來說這個錢很多"},{"start":604.411,"end":632.536,"text":"所以呢歷年大家都過去都提出很多的解方嘛像是調高營業稅稅率或者做財化法的修正提高營業稅的統籌分貝又或者呢直接由中央編列預算補助併入奢侈稅開徵碳稅那地方政府開徵特別稅額我是在想這是大家提出的各種解方啦大概也不外乎這六種"},{"start":633.376,"end":653.293,"text":"那聽起來最有可能的是中央編列預算補助一年19億那去分配一下那如果說要找到一些替代財源也不難啊像國產署也經常做清理的案件或者是稅收增加的財源等等所以在這個地方可不可以請部長您6選1"},{"start":656.894,"end":671.599,"text":"委員報告這6項當然我們都要可以去演繹它各有它的一個問題在裡面我們歷年看到你們的回應都我們大概也都了解總是要6選1的話你選哪一個我想這個不是說我這邊在這邊選我覺得我們應該必須好好的討論跟來做一個演繹是"},{"start":676.161,"end":693.162,"text":"是跟地方政府討論?當然地方政府,然後再加上我們中央裡面也要跟立委討論啦,立委當然是非常重要的事我是這樣覺得喔部長,因為我們的新政府要上任啦那賴清德總統他也提到文化建國的理念"},{"start":694.443,"end":714.594,"text":"所以我們真的是希望說把一些屬於藝文產業類的真的是可以拿掉了啦那如果真的覺得有一些是屬於高消費行為奢侈的那留著沒有關係但是總是要做一些改變好不好促進這些產業的發展好不好好那謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝吳麗華委員接著我們請鄭天才委員"}]}},{"id":"151576","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151576","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336225df5ecee89f150cff82116bdf94ca8dcb4691eb09bf4e29ad2c783433b19875ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:38:06 - 12:53:26","影片長度":"00:15:20","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":920,"end_time":"2024-04-22T12:53:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T12:38:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1415,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時38分）好，謝謝召委，麻煩首先請環管署的顏旭明署長。"],["薛部長富盛：請副署長可以嗎？因為顏署長今天另有公出。"],["陳委員瑩：公出是去哪裡？佛光山嗎？"],["林副署長左祥：因為立法院經濟委員會考察南部地區礦業區的污染防治。"],["陳委員瑩：他去農業……"],["薛部長富盛：經濟委員會。"],["陳委員瑩：經濟委員會。"],["林副署長左祥：經濟委員會考察。"],["陳委員瑩：他去經濟委員會考察，所以你來衛環委員會備詢？"],["林副署長左祥：代理。"],["陳委員瑩：好，部長，我覺得是這樣，我剛剛有看一下你們今天這個出席的名單，也順便替召委講幾句話。時間已經開始了嗎？我還沒有開始質詢，我們先講一下這個程序的問題好不好？因為我覺得今天你們來的這個官員名單，除了大氣環境司是司長以外，其他單位都是副的，特別是剛剛講到的顏署長，這個科技執法的部分是他們主管的業務，但是他卻跑去經濟委員會考察，通常本委員會安排的會議都是正的要出席，但是你們今天來的大部分都是副的不說，連主管科技執法的環境管理署卻是派副署長來，結果署長跑去考察，這樣像話嗎？我覺得你們很嚴重在藐視我們的召委喔！我必須在這裡做這樣的提醒。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員的指教，抱歉，今天針對噪音這一塊，大氣司是主責的單位，所以我們大氣司的張順欽……"],["陳委員瑩：對，但我剛剛講了，科技執法的部分也是顏署長主管的業務，所以我也沒有偏離主題。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：我點名他是對的，所以我在這邊也替我們召委講幾句話，他不要動不動就跑去佛光山開署務會議，旁邊還有專人奉茶，這個都有照片為證，然後我很想瞭解一下，你們的署務會議去那邊開，會議紀錄內容是什麼？因為我看那個照片，佛光山那邊發的新聞稿出來的照片，大家都是在遊山玩水、在看風景啊！你們要不要叫署長來交代？"],["薛部長富盛：副署長要不要稍微說明一下？"],["陳委員瑩：你不用在這裡回答我啦！浪費我的時間，我等一下還要關心噪音的問題，我只是說一連貫……"],["薛部長富盛：好，我來瞭解一下情況。"],["陳委員瑩：對、對、對，為什麼要先點名他？因為有前面那一段，今天考察他又不在，因為我覺得他不出席今天本委員會的會議是不對的，要考察應該副署長去考察，你不是代理，應該署長來開會，好，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員的指教。"],["陳委員瑩：副署長先回座，我先請教一下部長。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：從你們提供的簡報可知，目前最嚴重影響環境噪音的問題，前兩名是交通及營建工程，所以今天想要先跟你們討論的問題，就是汽機車行駛中產生的噪音是違反交通法規還是你們主管的環境噪音管制標準？你們所收取的罰鍰是地方政府收去還是中央收取入庫？"],["薛部長富盛：噪音的部分是環境部來主責，當然就是到我們的基金裡面去，請我們張司長來回答一下。"],["張司長順欽：我想分兩塊，一個是車輛行駛中的噪音，這是依照噪音法來開罰，罰鍰是收到地方的那個……"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。有關於取締交通違規，常聽到警察機關都會訂定績效指標，汽機車違反噪音管制標準有沒有訂定績效指標？"],["薛部長富盛：沒有，我們噪音的部分並沒有績效指標的概念。"],["陳委員瑩：你們未來會不會考慮訂定這樣子的……"],["薛部長富盛：因為目前案子的量說真的也還不是那麼高啦！但是為了有激勵的效果，科技執法這一塊倒是不用，因為它是用科技執法24小時在執行，但是我們跟交通部、跟警政署用人為方式的這一部分，事實上是可以來考慮，特別是民眾反映說……"],["陳委員瑩：所以部長你說目前沒有訂績效指標，不訂是因為案件不多？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上，案件相較起來應該不是那麼多啦！跟機車……"],["陳委員瑩：不是績效不好，是案件不多？好，沒關係，那你們有沒有檢舉專線？"],["薛部長富盛：有，有檢舉專線。"],["陳委員瑩：幾號？你們都不知道？幾號？"],["張司長順欽：0800-066-666。"],["陳委員瑩：0800-066-666。"],["張司長順欽：你在哪個縣市打，就哪個縣市環保局……"],["陳委員瑩：OK，好，謝謝。目前你們補助地方政府運用科技執法來取締噪音，不知道目前成效如何？署長不在就要副署長回答了，對不對？換你了，今年1到3月，全國平均每月取締多少件？有沒有統計分析？"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員，這一塊可否容後再向委員報告？你們有資料嗎？還是需要時間整理？陳委員，可不可以會後我們再請環管署向委員……"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！因為署長都出去考察，又去佛光山，我們也只能等會後了啊！但佛光山的事我問他3次，他都給我裝傻，不回答我，好，那你們會後整理給我，謝謝。","聲音的分貝值會隨著量測距離的平方成反比，因為是利用科技的技術，所以理論上應該會有一個客觀的標準，讓全國各地都可以公平地來執法，環境部有沒有訂定統一的測量及取締的標準？有沒有？"],["薛部長富盛：跟陳委員報告，事實上我們不擔心測量的距離，因為這個都可以回推回去，就如同剛剛陳委員講的，隨著距離的改變，它的音量會減少，但是我們現在都可以用人工智慧，一量就知道距離多遠，所以倒推回去，從排氣管發出來的聲音多少都……"],["陳委員瑩：好，那你們量測的數值大概是多遠的距離？舉發的時候有沒有提供數據證明？"],["薛部長富盛：跟陳委員報告，沒有所謂量測的距離，就是譬如說，我們在這裡固定一個量測設備，車子跑過去，它的值就會跑出來了，所以距離沒有關係，大概都OK啦！當然太遠的距離，它的聲音就會降到我們裁罰的譬如說80dB以下的話，那當然就沒有。"],["陳委員瑩：我這樣乍聽之下感覺有點怪怪的。"],["薛部長富盛：不會啊！從科學的角度。"],["陳委員瑩：好，沒有關係。我特別要提一下，立法院是一個噪音相當多的地方，因為常常有很多人違規帶麥克風跟大喇叭進到議場亂吼亂叫，分貝之大，剛剛羅智強委員也有說噪音會影響身心健康、會憂鬱，造成憂鬱、失眠、高血壓。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：大家都知道，心血管疾病可能會容易中風、高血壓，那憂鬱、失眠，我這邊還有一些案例，就是嚴重的話，輕則影響工作效率，重則甚至會出現殺人、傷害別人這種脫序的行為，所以我想要請問，像立法院這樣嚴重的噪音，你們會不會主動舉發？會嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：室內噪音的部分，環境部目前大概還沒有在做。"],["陳委員瑩：如果有人檢舉，你們會不會來開單、開罰？"],["薛部長富盛：可是陳委員，我們現在用人工這種方法就是有這個挑戰，你說他……"],["陳委員瑩：你們有科技執法，你們可以在議場、在大院裝個固定式還是移動式的噪音監測系統啊！"],["薛部長富盛：假如將來我們噪音偵測設備量非常多的時候，可以考慮啦！但是現階段各縣市都不夠。"],["陳委員瑩：我覺得這不是量多不多的問題，而是有沒有需要的問題，我想每一位立法委員的工作都是相當重要的，因為要代表人民發聲。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：我們必須在一個良好的狀態下，所以這種噪音其實會嚴重影響立委開會的狀態，也為什麼會常常有脫序的行為，我想噪音是很嚴重，所以在這邊也要請你們幫幫忙，也特別提醒，立法院的確是一個很好監測，然後開單的地方。","民眾都知道，超速越多，裁罰的金額就越大，噪音值超過得越多，有沒有罰鍰越多？目前測到最大的違規分貝值是多少？"],["薛部長富盛：我們目前測到最高的分貝是多少……"],["張司長順欽：測到100……"],["薛部長富盛：100dB。"],["陳委員瑩：最高到100？"],["薛部長富盛：對，100dB。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝，那警察可不可以一經發現立即舉發？因為舉發完，這部車輛還是一樣產生噪音，所以我要請教的是，交通噪音可不可以連續舉發？這個問題法令有沒有規定？"],["薛部長富盛：噪音應該是可以連續舉發。"],["張司長順欽：目前來講，如果是警察舉發的話，還是要經過噪音的檢測超標才會開罰。"],["陳委員瑩：對，所以就是他可以連續舉發？"],["張司長順欽：可以。"],["陳委員瑩：可以，好。那噪音管制的標準規定有沒有舉發的標準方法？舉發的職權是警察還是環保局的人員？"],["張司長順欽：目前來講，環保局會攜帶設備就直接量測，有些會經過濾，就是他覺得吵，然後就攔下來檢測、超標、開單，就是環保局……"],["陳委員瑩：所以是環保局的人員？"],["張司長順欽：環保局就是直接稽查，因為警察機關也會覺得吵，但是沒有噪音檢測設備，所以他會拍照存證以後送環保局，然後我們會請車主過來，我們再檢驗。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你拍照也只能拍到影像，沒有辦法拍到噪音的音量。"],["張司長順欽：這個會有困難，包括民眾檢舉，我們……"],["陳委員瑩：所以未來這個就是你們要去討論、克服的地方。"],["張司長順欽：是。"],["陳委員瑩：接下來要請教的是有關營建工程產生的噪音，這個部分占了十一萬四千多件陳情案的24%，簡報中也沒有指出要如何處理，所以我要請教，勞動部的檢查員是依據職業安全衛生法及勞動檢查法在執行業務，對象是工作者，可是噪音大到民眾陳情，那就表示民眾的生活品質已經產生很大的影響，所以，部長，針對這個部分，你們要如何裁罰或舉發？"],["薛部長富盛：這個也是跟剛剛講到的機車一樣，噪音超標就要開罰，事實上，我們對營建工程基本上是鼓勵他們要自主管理，不必要到民眾舉發之後才……"],["陳委員瑩：所以是依照現場的音量分貝大小……"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：不是民眾自己在家裡聽到……"],["薛部長富盛：民眾聽到聲音很大是可以舉發它的。"],["陳委員瑩：但是你們要知道，我在這邊另外提出一個要提醒大家的。"],["薛部長富盛：好，給我們建議。"],["陳委員瑩：因為我學音樂的，我對聲音比較敏感，有一些聲音不一定是大聲才有影響，它如果一直在持續，即便它是一種微弱的，然後持續的……"],["薛部長富盛：比較低頻的……"],["陳委員瑩：對。"],["薛部長富盛：我大概知道陳委員在講的。"],["陳委員瑩：所以那個也是一種很大的干擾，我希望這個也可以列進去，好不好？你們去參考一下。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝陳委員的建議。"],["陳委員瑩：最後，一般地方環保局人員都有正常上下班，但是現在很多營建工程的噪音都是夜間產生的，你們夜間接受陳情管道跟處理的人力有嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：因為這部分的實際執行面，說實在是地方環保局，夜間對他們來講，在人力上也是造成很大的負擔。"],["陳委員瑩：所以這個今天點出來，也是一個漏洞，所以也是要你們去補強的。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：你們也有移動式的科技設備，營建工程可能利用這個方法去監測工地嗎？"],["張司長順欽：可以。"],["陳委員瑩：所以我想結論是這樣，因為今天的專報凸顯了4個問題，就是陳情多、裁罰少，追究民眾不追究事業單位，還有只知道運用科技去發現，但是沒有解決問題，再來就是重交通，卻忽略營建工程等其他噪音。本席在這邊有深刻體認，環境噪音問題是影響民眾生活安寧很重要的關鍵，環境部已經升格之後，應該要思考如何提升民眾的生活品質，原來環保署時代的思維，你們都是要重新檢討。所以我在這邊期許你們環境部的文官，不要因為部長要換到另外一個地方，就有業務空窗期和怠惰，未來本席也會持續關注環境噪音的問題，也要求部長要重視這個問題，然後你們也好好整頓一下立法院的噪音，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝陳委員的建議跟指導，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳瑩委員的發言。接下來請楊曜委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝那那個副組長先回座我先請教一下那個部長啦好 謝謝那個就是說從你們提供的簡報目前最嚴重影響環境噪音的問題前兩名是交通及這個營建工程所以今天想要先跟你們討論這個問題喔就是"},{"start":225.361,"end":238.911,"text":"氣機車行駛中產生的噪音是違反交通法規還是你們主管的這個環境噪音管制標準那你們所收取的罰環是地方政府收去還是中央收取入庫"},{"start":242.153,"end":264.179,"text":"噪音的部分是環境部來主責嗎?當然就是到我們的基金裡面去嗎?我們張市長來回答一下分兩塊,一個是車上行駛中的噪音是依照噪音法來開罰,罰額是收到地方的那個"},{"start":267.759,"end":287.348,"text":"好謝謝那這個有關於這個取締交通法規常聽到警察機關都會訂定績效指標那汽機車違反噪音管制標準有沒有訂定績效指標沒有我們噪音的部分齁這個並沒有這個績效指標的概念但你們未來會不會考慮來訂這樣子的"},{"start":289.485,"end":311.405,"text":"因為目前的案子的量說真的也還不是那麼高啦但是為了有機率的效果科技執法的這一塊倒是不用嘛因為它是用科技執法24小時但是這個我們跟這個交通部跟警政署用人為的方式的這一部分事實上是可以來考慮特別是民眾只要反映說這個"},{"start":314.267,"end":333.846,"text":"所以那個部長你說那個目前沒有定績效指標不定是因為案件不多事實上是案件應該是相較起來應該是不是那麼多啦跟機車不是績效不好是案件不多好沒關係那你們有沒有檢舉專線有有檢舉專線有齁幾號阿你都不知道"},{"start":339.855,"end":342.117,"text":"今年1到3月,全國平均每月取締多少件?有沒有統計分析?"},{"start":373.186,"end":398.574,"text":"還是陳瑩這一塊我們容後再向委員報告?你們有資料嗎?還是需要時間整理?那陳瑩可不可以這個會後我們再請環管署?對啊因為署長都出去考察又去佛光山我們也只能等會後了啊但我佛光山是我問他三次他都給我裝傻都不回答我好那你們再會後整理給我謝謝"},{"start":399.814,"end":419.916,"text":"因為這個聲音的分貝值會隨著量測的距離的平方呈反比因為是利用科技的技術所以理論上應該會有一個客觀的標準讓全國各地都可以公平的來執法環境部有沒有訂定統一的測量及取締的標準?有沒有?"},{"start":421.697,"end":449.355,"text":"給陳瑩報告,事實上我們不擔心測量的距離因為這個都可以回推、回去就如剛剛陳瑩講,隨著距離的改變它的音量會減少但是我們現在都可以用人工智慧一量就知道距離多遠,所以倒退回去從排氣管發出來的聲音多少好,那你們量測的這個數值是大概是多遠的距離然後那個舉發的時候有沒有提供數據證明"},{"start":450.296,"end":451.417,"text":"我這樣乍聽之下感覺有點怪怪的不會啊"},{"start":479.057,"end":492.485,"text":"我特別要提一下這個立法院是一個噪音相當多的地方因為常常有很多人違規帶麥克風跟大喇叭進到議場亂吼亂叫分貝之大"},{"start":498.529,"end":526.867,"text":"剛剛有特別羅智強委員也有講說噪音會影響身心健康會憂鬱造成憂鬱失眠高血壓大家知道心血管疾病可能會容易中風高血壓憂鬱失眠我這邊還有一些案例就是嚴重的話他甚至輕則影響工作效率那重的話甚至會出現殺人傷害別人的這種脫序的行為"},{"start":528.108,"end":556.416,"text":"所以我想要請問說像立法院這樣的嚴重的噪音你們會不會主動舉發?會嗎?市內的噪音的部分我想環境部目前大概還沒有在做那你們就是那如果有人檢舉你們會不會來開單開法可是陳瑩這種我們現在用人工的這種方法就是有這個挑戰"},{"start":558.096,"end":569.042,"text":"你剛有科技執法你可以在議場、在大院裝個那個看固定式還是移動式就是噪音的監測系統嗎?將來我們這個噪音偵測設備量非常多的時候"},{"start":575.825,"end":598.993,"text":"我覺得這個不是量多不多的問題而是有沒有需要的問題那因為我想每一位立法委員的工作都是相當重要的因為要代表人民發聲我們必須要在一個良好的狀態下所以呢這種噪音其實會嚴重影響立委開會的這個狀態"},{"start":601.774,"end":627.944,"text":"所以為什麼會常有脫序的行為我想噪音是很嚴重所以在這邊也要請你們幫幫忙也特別提醒立法院的確是一個很好監測然後開單的地方好那民眾都知道超數越多那裁罰的金額就越大那麼噪音值超過的越多有沒有罰還越多那目前就是測到的這個最大的違規分貝值是多少"},{"start":629.558,"end":653.38,"text":"我們目前測到的最高的分貝是多少?我曾經測到100最高到100對100dB好 謝謝那警察可不可以就是說一經發現立即舉發因為舉發完這部車輛還是一樣產生噪音所以我要請教就是說交通噪音可不可以連續舉發那這個問題法令有沒有規定?"},{"start":654.986,"end":682.156,"text":"噪音應該是可以連續來舉發目前來講就是那個如果是警察舉發的話還是要經過噪音的檢測、超標才會有開罰對,那他所以就是可以連續他可以連續舉發可以齁,好那噪音管制的標準規定有沒有舉發的標準方法因為舉發然後還有就是說舉發的職權呢是就是說是警察還是環保局的人員"},{"start":683.807,"end":713.019,"text":"目前來講環保局就是會攜帶設備就直接量測有些會經過過濾之後他覺得吵然後就攔下來檢測、超標、開單所以是環保局的人員?環保局就是直接稽查那因為警察機關有些會覺得吵但是沒有噪音設備所以他會把拍照存證以後送環保局然後我們會請車主過來我們再檢驗他的所以你拍照也只能拍到影像沒有辦法拍到噪音的音量啊?"},{"start":715.76,"end":738.728,"text":"所以這個未來就是你們要去討論客服的地方嗎?因為接下來要請教營建工程產生的噪音這個部分占了11萬4千多件的陳情案的24%那檢報中也沒有指出要如何處理所以我要請教勞動部的檢察員是依據"},{"start":740.148,"end":760.222,"text":"職業安全衛生法及勞動檢查法在執行業務那對象是工作者可是噪音大到這個民眾陳情那就表示說這個民眾的生活品質已經就是說被產生很大的影響所以部長這個部分你們是要如何裁罰或舉發"},{"start":762.963,"end":773.912,"text":"這個也是跟機車剛剛講到的噪音超標就要開罰那事實上我們是對這營建工程基本上是鼓勵他們要自主管理啦"},{"start":775.214,"end":803.482,"text":"這是管理不必要到民眾舉花之後他才這個所以是依照現場的那個分貝的音量大小不是說民眾聽到自己在家裡民眾聽到聲音很大他是可以舉花他但是你們要知道我在這邊我另外提出一個要提醒大家的因為我對音樂我對聲音比較敏感因為有一些聲音他不一定是大聲才有影響他如果"},{"start":804.122,"end":819.598,"text":"就是一直在持續即便它是一種微弱的然後持續的比較低頻的我大概知道對所以那個也是一種很大的干擾我希望這個也可以列進去好不好你們去參考一下那最後低頻的"},{"start":820.639,"end":847.609,"text":"補一點時間喔因為一般地方環保局的人員都有正常上下班那現在很多這個營建工程的噪音都是夜間產生的那你們夜間的接受陳情管道跟人力跟處理的人力有嗎?這一部分因為實際在執行面的說實在是地方環保局那夜間事實上對他們來講在人力上也是造成所以這個也是今天點出來也是一個漏洞所以也是要你們要去補強的"},{"start":848.829,"end":869.291,"text":"那你們也有移動式的科技設備．那營建工程可能利用這個方法去監測工地嗎?可以所以我想結論是這樣因為今天的專報突顯了四個問題就是陳情多、財閥少那追究民眾不追究事業單位還有只知道運用科技去發現但是沒有解決問題"},{"start":870.492,"end":893.242,"text":"再來就是重交通卻忽略營建工程等其他噪音所以本期在這邊就是有深刻的提認環境噪音問題是影響民眾生活安寧很重要的關鍵那環境部已經升格之後呢那應該要思考如何提升民眾的這個生活品質那原來環保署時代的思維你們都是要重新檢討"},{"start":894.583,"end":895.083,"text":"好,謝謝陳瑩的建議跟指導,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151575","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151575","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c33690df2d7b8230ab7d7dee175bc8e0be1adcb4691eb09bf4e29dddcc694b59bbf05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:35:51 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12:44:02","影片長度":"00:08:11","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-10"},"duration":491,"end_time":"2024-04-22T12:44:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T12:35:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":954,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時35分）謝謝主席，麻煩請金管委會主委。"],["主席：請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：主委好。主委辛苦了，即將要卸任了，我相信您在金管會任內服務這麼久，您的表現不管是金融界還是社會有一定的評價，雖然您即將要卸任，有些事情我還是想要比較具體的問清楚，因為政府會輪替，閣員會換人，金管會主委會換人，但是對於我們一般民眾的保護應該是要持續的，不會因為換人的情況而產生變動。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，請委員指示。"],["黃委員國昌：從上一屆的國會到這一屆的國會，以im.B的例子、im.B弊案引發的風暴，我們開始全面的去思考跟反省，之前我在質詢的時候也請教過您，在2016年的時候本來P2P要納管，然後在某一個時間當中突然政策做了非常大的轉彎，後來央行針對主要的國家在訂定P2P規範的時候，他們也很清楚的把各國規範的態度整理出來了，從美國、英國、澳洲等各個國家，我們的中央銀行很負責任地把它整理出來了，不管是就P2P平臺的監理規範或者是P2P平臺應該要有的主管機關，或者是說P2P平臺的業者設立的核准或登記，我相信這份報告主委應該也很熟嘛﹗"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們有拜讀，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！當然我知道啦，金管會到目前為止的立場可能會考慮到金管會自己目前本身的量能，還是確定沒有打算要把P2P納入監理的範圍嘛，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：現階段，因為去年行政院開過會，有幾個方向，那個也陳給委員看過，有幾個步驟啦，包括我們訂定了指導原則、公會的自律，但公會現在因為每個人的model不一樣，所以在內政部那邊、經濟部那邊還要再協調。"],["黃委員國昌：對，您就先針對問題回答就好了，到目前為止的政策立場是沒有要納管嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有用立法的方式去管，對。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有用立法的方式嘛！我也拜讀了金管會所推出的指導原則，真的，你們P2P借貸平臺所推的指導原則，我從頭到尾詳細拜讀完了，作為一個法律人，我最根本的問題是這個指導原則到底是什麼？這個指導原則是法規命令嗎？是行政規則嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：沒有，它沒有法律的基礎。"],["黃委員國昌：它沒有法律的基礎嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["黃委員國昌：我覺得這件事情把它講清楚很重要，因為當指導原則沒有法律的基礎，那我們接下來就要處理好幾個重要的問題，第一個事情是違反指導原則的法律效果是什麼？"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為我們105年開始，基本是透過他們跟銀行之間的互動，透過銀行間接對他的風控這方面去做一個管理，是用這種方式去做的。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以我的問題成立，主委你還沒有回答，違反指導原則的法律效果是什麼？"],["黃主任委員天牧：基本上沒有特定的法律效果……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有特定的法律效果嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為它沒有法律的依據。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，這個事情我覺得讓所有的人知道是很重要的，要不然大家接收到的訊息是說，金管會有推指導原則，大家會陷入一個錯誤的想像，那個錯誤的想像就是這個平臺業者要遵照這個指導原則，如果不遵照這個指導原則的話會如何如何嘛，所以很清楚的，讓所有的人都知道，這些平臺業者不遵守這個指導原則也不會怎麼樣嘛，我的理解有沒有錯誤？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，就P2P是這個樣子，可是允不允許我可以多講一、兩句話？"],["黃委員國昌：可以，請說。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們在那個虛擬資產平臺，也是去年9月26號有訂定指導原則，目前也還沒有定法，但是VASP公會的業者對我們的指導原則是遵循的，而且我們檢查的時候也會依照那個原則去檢查。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣說好了，我們之所以有訂定規範的必要，我們當然相信大部分的人會遵守規範，之所以會制定規範是要處理那些不遵守規範的人嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["黃委員國昌：以目前臺灣P2P借貸平臺也好，債權轉讓也好的亂象，我必須要跟主委講我個人的看法，去期待這些業者會自己遵守這種自律規範，我覺得是緣木求魚啦！我們比較實際的看法是當你不遵守我們應該有的規範的時候，我們的法律效果是什麼，給大家的保護是什麼，這個才實際嘛，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：主席，你真的大小眼，你……"],["主席：我就是站起來，你不喜歡看到我站起來？"],["黃委員國昌：伸展身體就對了。你不要大小眼！最後一題。","主委，這件事情很重要，你要讓社會大眾知道，這個自律規範業者不遵守也不會怎麼樣，我為什麼很重視這件事情，就是另外一個，你們一直說要成立商業同業公會，讓他們自律嘛，商業同業公會講到今天成立了嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：目前還沒有，因為業者之間彼此意見分歧，有的就排他，他覺得你的模式跟我不符，我不要給你加入這個公會，有這個問題。"],["黃委員國昌：主委，目前的狀態不就剛好印證了我剛剛講的話嗎？這一些業者連要不要成立商業公會、誰主導、誰可以參加、誰不可以參加，都可以鬧得不可開交，還期待他們會遵守這個自律規範，主委，你覺得我講的有沒有道理？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員指教的值得我們參考，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：他們這樣繼續鬧下去，主委，依照您的判斷，在您卸任以前，這個商業同業公會成立得起來嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：目前的進展是還沒有到成立的時候。"],["黃委員國昌：就原地踏步嘛，持續的在踏步嘛，過了一年以後，我可能在這個地方問下屆主委這個P2P業者的商業同業公會成立了嗎？他可能跟你的答案一模一樣，這些業者大家有不一樣的看法，到現在都還沒有成立。這就是為什麼我苦口婆心地講，金管會真的針對這一件事情的規範立場是什麼，或許要重新思考，因為我真的很擔心，我真的很擔心下一次不曉得又哪一個借貸平臺出了狀況，又有多少人會受害，主委，您可以瞭解我為什麼說這樣的話嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我很感謝委員對這件事情用這樣一個方式給我們的指導，我們會記住，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：好，最後啦，最後可能也是公開的跟下一任可能的主委喊話，要接金管會主委沒那麼容易，我希望新的內閣針對P2P這件事情，立場到底是什麼？是不是還是採取我們不納管，用自律規範的方式，這個可能要先想清楚，因為一上任以後馬上就要跟整個社會做報告，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員指導，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員。接著請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 案；\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案","agenda_id":"1133201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.6297187500000003,"end":4.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.6334687500000005,"end":6.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.763468750000001,"end":11.286593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.029093750000001,"end":14.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.273468750000003,"end":15.707843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.89346875,"end":16.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.64846875,"end":21.816593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.49159375,"end":26.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.74409375,"end":30.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.16534375,"end":32.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.274718750000005,"end":33.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.84409375,"end":35.502218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.83534375,"end":37.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.814093750000005,"end":38.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.01221875,"end":40.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.17221875,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.37034375,"end":46.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.112218750000004,"end":49.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.407218750000006,"end":51.820343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.275968750000004,"end":53.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.25471875,"end":60.915968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.27034375,"end":73.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.08346875000001,"end":69.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.65659375,"end":79.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.56284375,"end":92.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.99534375,"end":93.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.78409375000001,"end":100.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.33596875,"end":103.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.99784375,"end":107.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.84534375000001,"end":123.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.79221875,"end":127.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.28096875,"end":131.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.67284375,"end":133.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.95096875000002,"end":144.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.37971875,"end":150.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.09596875,"end":151.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.66971875000002,"end":151.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.72034375,"end":156.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.94721875000002,"end":160.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.22534375,"end":161.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.35159375,"end":173.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.82659375,"end":175.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.69971875000002,"end":177.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.46721875,"end":180.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.06596875000002,"end":183.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.66471875000002,"end":185.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.71534375000002,"end":186.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.31409375,"end":200.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.60284375,"end":213.26346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.63471875000002,"end":213.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.17471875,"end":220.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.11034375000003,"end":224.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.42221875,"end":239.25096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.47159375,"end":231.65721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.67284375000003,"end":242.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.81159375000001,"end":248.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.97096875000003,"end":250.23659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.67534375000002,"end":252.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.70034375000003,"end":254.03346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.47221875000002,"end":259.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.72034375000004,"end":259.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.75409375000004,"end":279.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.79971875,"end":265.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.44721875,"end":280.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.70846875,"end":294.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.60096875,"end":298.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.95471875000004,"end":302.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.98784375,"end":305.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.51909375,"end":310.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.68284375,"end":317.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.92221875,"end":326.2078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管是就P2P平台的建立規範或者是P2P平台它應該要有的主管機關或者是說P2P平台它的業者它設立了合準或登記我相信這份報告主委您應該也很熟嗎?我有拜讀謝謝是嗎?好"},{"start":119.571,"end":130.744,"text":"當然我知道啦 金管會到目前為止的立場是可能會考慮到說金管會自己目前本身的量能還是確定的沒有打算要把P2P納入監理的範圍嘛 對不對"},{"start":134.331,"end":156.209,"text":"現在當然因為去年行政院開過會有幾個方向那也曾給委員看過那幾個步驟了包括我們有定的主導原則、工會的自立但工會現在因為每個人的model不一樣所以在內政部那邊、經濟部那邊還造成還要再協調您就先針對問題回答就好了到目前為止的政策立場是沒有人要拿管嗎?"},{"start":157.967,"end":179.798,"text":"沒有用立法的方式去管沒有用立法的方式嘛因為我拜讀了監管會所推出的指導原則真的你們P2P借貸平台所推的指導原則我從頭到尾我詳細拜讀完了但作為一個法律人我最根本的問題是這個指導原則到底是什麼"},{"start":181.324,"end":200.204,"text":"這個指導原則是法規命令嗎?是行政規則嗎?他沒有法律的基礎嗎?我覺得這件事情把它講清楚很重要因為當指導原則沒有法律的基礎那我們接下來就要處理好幾個重要的問題第一個事情是那違反指導原則的法律效果是什麼?"},{"start":201.67,"end":220.471,"text":"因為我們105年開始基本是透過他們跟銀行之間的互動,透過銀行的間接的對他的這個封控這方面去做一個管理,是用這種方式去做的。對,所以我的問題成立,除了您還沒有回答,《委員制導原則》的法律效果是什麼?"},{"start":221.152,"end":248.135,"text":"基本上沒有特定的法律效果沒有特定的法律效果他沒有法律的依據沒有 這個事情我覺得讓所有的人知道是很重要的要不然大家接到訊息說儘管會有推指導原則大家會陷入一個錯誤的想像那個錯誤的想像就是你這個平台業者你要遵照這個指導原則你如果不遵照這個指導原則的話會如何如何嘛"},{"start":249.036,"end":258.844,"text":"所以很清楚的讓所有的人都知道這些平台業者啊他不遵守這個指導原則也不會怎麼樣嘛我的理解有沒有錯誤"},{"start":260.015,"end":280.36,"text":"委員這P2P是這樣可是允不允許我可以多講一兩句話可以請說我們在那個虛擬資產平台也是去年9月26號有訂那個指導原則目前也還沒有訂法但是VASP的工會業者是對我們的指導原則是遵循的而且我們檢查的時候也會依照那個原則去檢查我這樣說好了啦"},{"start":281.752,"end":309.866,"text":"我們之所以有定定規範的必要我們當然相信大部分的人會遵守規範之所以會制定規範是要處理那些不遵守規範的人嘛那以目前台灣P2P借貸平台也好債權轉讓也好的亂象我必須要跟主委講我個人的看法去期待這些業者會自己遵守這種自律規範我覺得是緣木求魚啦"},{"start":310.766,"end":335.995,"text":"我們比較實際的看法是當你不遵守當你不遵守我們應該有的規範的時候我們的法律效果是什麼給大家的保護是什麼這個才實際嘛 對不對主席你這個大小眼站起來你不喜歡看到我站起來伸展身體就對了最後一題不要大小眼做好"},{"start":338.049,"end":359.344,"text":"這件事情很重要你要跟社會大眾知道這個自律規範業者不遵守也不會怎麼樣我為什麼很重視這件事情就是另外一個你們一直說要成立商業同業工會要成立商業同業工會讓他們自律嘛那商業同業工會講到今天成立了嗎"},{"start":360.41,"end":387.515,"text":"目前還沒有就是說業者之間彼此意見分歧有的就排他他覺得你的模式跟我不符我不要跟你加入這個工會是有這個問題主委目前的狀態不就剛好印證了我剛講的話嗎這些業者啊連要不要成立商業工會啊誰主導啊誰可以參加誰不可以參加都可以鬧得不可開交啊還期待他們會遵守這個自律規範啊"},{"start":388.84,"end":399.757,"text":"主委你覺得我講的有沒有道理?委員指教的值得我們參考謝謝他們這樣繼續鬧下去主委依照您的判斷在您卸任以前這個商業同業公會成立的起來嗎?"},{"start":401.274,"end":420.601,"text":"目前的進展是還沒有到成立的時候就原地踏步嘛持續的在踏步嘛過了一年以後我可能在這個地方問下屆的主委說這個PVP業者商業同位的工會成立了嗎他還可能跟你的答案一模一樣這些業者大家有不一樣的看法"},{"start":422.093,"end":440.214,"text":"到現在都還沒有成立這個是為什麼我苦口婆心的講金管會真的針對這一件事情的規範立場是什麼或許要重新思考因為我真的很擔心我真的很擔心下一次不曉得又哪一個借貸平台"},{"start":441.155,"end":461.727,"text":"除了狀況,又有多少人會受害?主委您可以瞭解我為什麼說這樣的話嗎?我會很感謝委員對這件事情用這樣一個方式對我們的指導,我們會記住。好,那最後啦,最後可能也是公開的跟下一任可能的主委喊話啦。要接金管會主委沒那麼容易啊。"},{"start":462.728,"end":478.551,"text":"我希望新的內閣針對批徒批這件事情立場到底是什麼是不是還是採取我們不納管用自律規範的方式可能要先想清楚因為一上任以後馬上就要跟整個社會做報告好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151574","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151574","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c33644b5aa36306e99edcff82116bdf94ca8dcb4691eb09bf4e21f6c1a7395a818995ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:31:38 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12:37:22","影片長度":"00:05:44","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":344,"end_time":"2024-04-22T12:37:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T12:31:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1375,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時31分）主席，有請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長好，民眾對於居住環境品質的要求是越來越高，不管是空氣品質、水質都是大家關心的重要環境指標。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["羅委員智強：那有一個很重要的衡量標準就是今天的主題，就是噪音的指數。"],["薛部長富盛：噪音，沒錯，現在越來越重要。"],["羅委員智強：對，噪音污染在各地的1999市民專線當中也常常是民眾公害陳情的熱門項目，因為如果長期暴露在噪音之下，會造成憂鬱、失眠、高血壓，世界衛生組織以均能音量55分貝作為住宅區戶外的音量建議標準，這一次環境部所提有關於噪音管制報告的內容主要是針對移動噪音來源管理嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["羅委員智強：因為車輛噪音有移動跟不定時性，所以環境部也針對比較大宗像國產機車跟進口機車的排氣管噪音，但是隨著不同環境的來源跟區域，其實民眾還是有不一樣的困擾。我想請教一下部長，在我的選區大安區，在移動車輛噪音部分除了重機之外，還有一種車輛也常常造成民眾的投訴跟困擾，你知道是什麼樣的交通工具、什麼樣的移動車輛嗎？我告訴你，就是超跑啦！"],["薛部長富盛：什麼？"],["羅委員智強：就是跑車啦！你有沒有在路上被超跑的聲音嚇到過，有沒有這個經驗？"],["薛部長富盛：應該有，這個多多少少會有。"],["羅委員智強：這是在我們生活經驗當中的一個，就是超跑「呼」過去，其實音量非常大。"],["薛部長富盛：對，沒錯。"],["羅委員智強：其實有蠻多超跑的駕駛，不管是購買還是用租的，他享受的是什麼？"],["薛部長富盛：超高速。"],["羅委員智強：他其實享受的是那個音浪感，對不對？就是引擎的音浪感。像超跑法拉利隨便一催油門，所製造的噪音就非常驚人，雖然很多超跑的音浪感讓駕駛人覺得非常喜歡，但是對一般民眾卻是噩夢。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["羅委員智強：像大安區的狀況，其實有很多民眾向我反映，就是有時候半夜這樣「呼」過去，那真的是非常擾民。剛剛提到很多機車是出廠後使用非認證的排氣管，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["羅委員智強：所以要改裝就要到監理站去變更登記，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["羅委員智強：可是你知道超跑駕駛面對這個排氣管的問題會怎麼說嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上，對超跑的擁有者，我們也在檢討，像我們對他包括罰款之類的處罰，對他們來講是一點影響力都沒有。"],["羅委員智強：答對了！真的完全沒影響。"],["薛部長富盛：對啊！他根本就不care。"],["羅委員智強：他不care嘛！那我要跟大家講的就是，事實上，對於這些超跑的擁有者，車主會說這是原廠設定，他根本就沒有改裝，他不用改裝，原廠就是這樣了，然後車子本身的音量就非常大。這其實形成一個很弔詭的狀況，就是有些車子原廠設定的音浪就非常地大，比方說各種超跑的引擎不同，我們看了一下噪音的標準，大概平均在89到100分貝之間，可是根據噪音的管制法，道路速限小於50公里，那噪音超過多少其實就已經違規了？就是噪音超過86分貝；速限50到70公里，噪音超過90分貝，對不對？換言之，原廠的車子基本上只要直接一催油門，馬上就已經超過那個分貝了。目前我們開罰處罰鍰的範圍是多大，最低多少、最高多少？"],["薛部長富盛：1,800元到3,600元，對他們來講可能……"],["羅委員智強：就是部長講的啊！"],["薛部長富盛：是啊！"],["羅委員智強：他不是罰不怕，他是根本不怕罰嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["羅委員智強：所以現在對於超跑造成的噪音問題，環境部也好，交通部也好，或是警政署有沒有討論過什麼改善的方案？你剛剛也點出一個關鍵，就是他就當繳規費一樣，他認為：我就讓你罰嘛！可是在這種情形，民眾陷入這個所謂的噪音污染，這個問題在目前的法制上我好像沒有看到解決的方式。"],["薛部長富盛：跟羅委員報告，剛剛也有委員建議計點搞不好是可以考慮，就是計點多少次以後，either要要求車主去上課，甚至要做其他讓這些超跑擁有者比較會覺得造成很大不便的事情，這樣才會比罰錢更有效。"],["羅委員智強：我覺得很好，部長，雖然你好像也快要畢業了，但是我覺得剛剛的建議真的要留給我們的行政機關去看，就是今天我們如果真的要管制一項違規行為，你要讓對方覺得這個處罰讓他有感，對顯然不怕罰錢的人，你只罰他錢，他無感嘛！但是你記點然後叫他來上課，甚至對他有什麼其他的行政處罰，除非我們不管噪音了，否則像這樣的態樣其實還是要設計出能夠讓他有感的處罰標準。"],["薛部長富盛：好，我會請我們的同仁來做。"],["羅委員智強：以上，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝羅委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅智強委員的發言。","接下來請羅明才委員、羅明才委員，羅明才委員不在。","接下來請賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員，賴士葆委員不在。","接下來請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員，徐欣瑩委員不在。","接下來請游顥委員、游顥委員，游顥委員不在。","接下來請吳秉叡委員、吳秉叡委員，吳秉叡委員不在。","接下來請陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員，陳冠廷委員不在。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","接下來請陳瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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對不對就引擎的音浪感但是你像超跑法拉利隨便一吹油門它製造的噪音就非常驚人可是雖然很多的一些有些這個超跑它的音浪感讓這個駕駛人覺得是非常喜歡但是對一般民眾卻是噩夢啦"},{"start":143.768,"end":164.085,"text":"單區的狀況其實我這裡有很多民眾有反應就是說有時候半夜就呼過去那真的是非常老民好那剛剛提到很多機車是出廠後使用非認證的排氣管對不對是然後所以要改裝就要監理站去變更登記對不對可是你知道操跑來說他們會怎麼說你知道嗎"},{"start":165.37,"end":187.661,"text":"你知道他們怎麼說?面對這個排氣管的問題事實上對超跑的擁有者我們也在檢討像我們對他的包括罰款之類對他們來講是一點影響力都沒有答對了真的完全沒影響對啊他根本不care他不care嘛那我要跟大家講就是說事實上對於這些超跑的擁有者車主會說這是原廠設定"},{"start":191.445,"end":205.053,"text":"他連他根本沒在改裝他不用改裝他就原廠了然後呢他音量非常大本身音量就非常大那其實這其實形成一個很弔詭的狀況就是說有些他原廠設定的音量就非常的大那"},{"start":207.114,"end":234.007,"text":"比方說各種操作引擎不同那噪音的標準我們看了一下大概平均在89到100分貝之間可是根據噪音的管制法道路速限小於50公里那噪音超過多少那其實就已經違規了是超於86分貝速限50到70公里噪音超過90分貝對不對也就是說換言之它的原廠基本上"},{"start":235.029,"end":248.107,"text":"他直接一吹油門馬上就已經超過那個分貝了那目前我們開罰的那個罰環的那個那個那個就是範圍是多大最低多少最高多少"},{"start":248.663,"end":269.825,"text":"一千八到三千六對他們來講可能就是部長講的啊是啊他不是罰不怕他是根本不怕罰嘛對不對那所以像現在這種東西就是對於這個操跑造成的噪音問題我不知道環境部也好交通部也好警政署有沒有討論過什麼改善的方法你也剛剛點出一個關鍵說他還真的是"},{"start":270.686,"end":285.327,"text":"他就當繳規費一樣啊基本上就是我今天我就讓你罰嘛那可是這種情形你覺得讓我們民眾陷入這個噪音的這個所謂的汙染那個問題好像在目前法制上我沒有看到解決方式欸"},{"start":286.223,"end":311.61,"text":"跟羅委員報告剛剛有委員建議這個祭典搞不好是可以考慮反而是去祭典多少次以後依著要求車主要去上課甚至要做其他這些超跑擁有者比較會覺得造成很大不便才比花錢更有效我覺得很好部長雖然你好像也快要畢業了"},{"start":313.51,"end":328.797,"text":"但是我覺得剛剛的建議真的留給我們的行政機關去看就是說你今天我們如果真的要管制一下違規行為你要讓對方覺得這個處罰讓他是有感他顯然不怕罰錢的你罰他錢他無感嘛"},{"start":329.477,"end":337.404,"text":"但你將來上課來祭典甚至將來有什麼其他的行政處罰所以這個真的除非我們不管噪音了否則像這樣的態樣其實還是要設計出能夠讓他有感的處罰標準以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151573","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151573","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336ac3b6b4de720ccd27dee175bc8e0be1adcb4691eb09bf4e258f4e0c05596b1305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:26:29 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12:35:40","影片長度":"00:09:11","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-10"},"duration":551,"end_time":"2024-04-22T12:35:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T12:26:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":909,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時26分）主席謝謝，麻煩請莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。部長，不分朝野的委員，都對於現在所謂的娛樂稅，感到它真的已經有不合時宜的感覺，為什麼？因為這個是民國31年八年抗戰時期就開徵的娛樂稅，現在有82年的歷史。當然，娛樂稅經過這樣一個時空環境變化的不同，其實以前的娛樂稅，以前大家會認為這個相對來講，是一種富裕的時候才有辦法使用的一個稅，到現在感覺是小確幸啦，就是民眾看個電影，民眾去看個表演啊，這其實是生活的一個調適，而且文化部等相關部會，也都鼓勵大家應該要多參與。本席現在看到的是，財政部還是一直搖頭，覺得說廢除娛樂稅不宜啊，本席很好奇，過去我們要調整或是修改哪一個稅制的時候，財政部有哪一個是有點頭過的？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，娛樂稅是屬於地方稅，所以我們要尊重地方政府的意見，財政部也邀請了地方政府一起來討論，地方政府都反對，只有一個地方政府認為可以，其他地方政府都反對廢止娛樂稅。但是也如同剛剛委員所說的，比如說有一些娛樂稅的項目，在今天的社會環境情況下，是不是還要再課徵娛樂稅，這個是可以檢討的，也就是課稅項目可以做檢討。第二個部分，對於稅率的部分，目前第五條是規定了各個課稅項目的稅率上限，目前實務上，地方政府都是從低課徵，所以在上限的部分也可以做調整。第三個，我們也要考量到地方政府，事實上，因為他有他的政策目的，他想要推廣哪一方面的，比如說文化，或者是藝術表演之類的，那也賦予地方政府可以停徵某一項的娛樂稅的項目。我想這個部分是我們在去年邀同地方政府討論時，大概有一個這樣大致上的方向，但是因為在項目跟稅率的上限部分，還有一些分歧的意見，我們會繼續的跟他們討論，讓大家能夠獲得一個最大的共識。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席沒有打斷你的回答時間，但你還是沒有回答我的問題，什麼時候，我們要調整任何一個稅率的時候，財政部有點頭同意的？好像也沒有嘛！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席是區域委員，所以你不用拿地方政府來好像堵我的嘴，我當然知道地方的財政不容易啊，我當然知道地方政府都也希望能夠有更多的員額，但是說實在話，之後我們也會討論財政收支劃分法，如果說中央收支的部分能夠給地方政府有更公平的一個對待，包括本席的新北市有400萬人口，但是我們人平均是拿到六都最低的，如果有更公平的對待的話，我覺得娛樂稅相對來講，這個項目比較少，那是大家都可以接受的。而且再講到你今天的報告，因為已經要討論到逐條了，有可能要討論到逐條，而且各黨團也都有簽所謂不復議的同意書，所以要討論到逐條了，但你現在是跟我們講，說可以來做檢討，相關的這些可以檢討調降或是部分課稅的項目，但你還是沒有跟我們說到底具體的內容怎麼做，你們只有講「不宜」，但你們沒有講說具體哪一些地方檢討、哪一些地方調整，沒有啊！那到底是我們等到逐條的時候才來做逐條審查嗎？還是說你們到底心目中有沒有什麼樣的方向？電影是國片的部分，我們可以不要徵娛樂稅，還是怎麼樣的部分？還是什麼表演性質，表演團體如果是我們本土的表演團體，我們不要徵娛樂稅來鼓勵我們本土的文化，有沒有一個方向？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，剛剛您講的就是說，為什麼沒有一個具體的項目，就如同我們後面講的，就是因為各個具體的項目，地方政府還有一些分歧的意見，所以我們希望能夠徵求最大的……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以什麼時候會出來？這個議題已經討論很久了！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們會再邀同地方政府來討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：從第10屆就討論了嘛，82年以來都有娛樂稅，大家也都有討論，說娛樂稅是不是與時俱進，應該要調整了，但是絕對不是說到現在這個時候都已經要進入逐條了，朝野委員都有共識了，都希望能夠修正，都希望能夠爭取的時候，還在講說地方政府，那這樣就代表你中央沒有去統合，或是說中央沒有去確認一個結論啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：有啊，我們有找地方一起來討論啊。"],["洪委員孟楷：即便是在立法院，我們很多委員有提出不同版本，我們召委可能都會說拜託，我們委員是不是各黨團去整合一個版本，這樣子我們有兩、三個黨團版本，大家比較好來討論。那一樣的道理，今天我知道各縣市的稅務單位都有來，但我沒有辦法叫各縣市的稅務單位，大家一個一個上來，所以我們當然還是請財政部來做統籌啊。"],["莊部長翠雲：是啊，所以財政部會要求地方政府再來尋求共識。"],["洪委員孟楷：我只是想要確認，當我們進入到逐條的時候，財政部會不會有一個一致的講法，而不是那麼空洞的講說會檢討調降，但是還是一樣搖頭？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想跟委員報告，財政部還是會跟地方政府來討論，我們尋求一個最大的共識。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你最大共識是什麼？就是不要動？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有，我覺得不是這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：維持現狀？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，我們剛剛有講過項目可以做調整……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以我就講嘛，有些時候我們討論到這種不合時宜的時候，財政部從來沒有點頭過啊，不是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有，財政部認為大家都可以討論的啊。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席還是強調啦，我覺得是應該要去做真真正正的討論，因為既然現在針對娛樂稅，各黨團也都有版本出來，大家也都希望能夠調整，還有就是，我覺得應該還要繼續思考，如果說真的娛樂稅有取消或是減免的話，票價上的反映能不能給實質，譬如說消費者，譬如說給這些團體一個最實質的挹注。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，跟委員報告，您提的就是說，如果娛樂稅不課徵的話，是不是這個票價就會反映到消費者的身上，這個是很重要，因為娛樂稅現在它是代徵，也就是我賣電影票，所以我順便就課徵了娛樂稅，那是不是我賣的時候，賣了還是一樣，娛樂稅沒有課，他依然是以這個票價在賣，這個是很重要的事，對啊。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以你要去……部長，這很重要，所以本席現在質詢你啊，你有沒有去思考？"],["莊部長翠雲：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果說假設真的有，我們認為娛樂稅要取消的話，那後面反映到票價上，因為沒有代徵這個部分了，我們怎麼樣有強制或是說我們怎麼樣有一個政策工具或方法，可以讓消費者也感受到？"],["莊部長翠雲：所以這個就是後面要做的事情，可能會，第一個，地方政府少了稅收，第二個，消費者又沒有得到實益嘛。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，今天大家都已經來了，應該是財政部要超前部署，要針對這個議題先去做研擬。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我們會的，我們還會再邀地方政府一起來做討論的。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候會邀？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們時間再來定吧！"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，一個月內，因為這個部分我尊重召委的排案，但是我想羅明才委員，他過去長期在財政委員會，那麼資深的召委，他也會協助，再加上我剛剛已經講了，娛樂稅的部分，各黨團有簽不復議同意書，所以有可能很快也會來做逐條。本席認為財政部這邊應該要做超前部署，如果說真的有調整，在逐條審查的時候，你們要提出你們的一個建議，而不是如同今天一樣，就是只說可以檢討跟調降，但是沒有任何具體的東西，我覺得這樣是無助於討論。還有更重要的是，如果真的有調降的話，怎麼樣反映在票價上，能夠讓消費者感受到，現在既然政府沒有徵收娛樂稅，一部分可以讓我們的表演團體，他們能夠減輕財政，一部分也可以讓消費者減輕票價，能夠更鼓勵大家進場看表演，進場支持我們國片或是進場支持我們的運動產業，這樣可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，會的。"],["洪委員孟楷：一個月內召開會議。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：在逐條的時候要提出來，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們先召開會議，好不好？"],["洪委員孟楷：好，一個月內，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：會議結論給本席以及我們財政委員會的委員。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝。"],["洪委員孟楷：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。接著請黃國昌委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 案；\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案","agenda_id":"1133201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.08159375,"end":1.6003437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.27471875,"end":7.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.35034375,"end":24.516593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.15784375,"end":32.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.291593750000004,"end":34.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.09721875,"end":53.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.047843750000006,"end":61.20284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.844093750000006,"end":62.822843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.227843750000005,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.14221875,"end":147.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.20471875,"end":76.42409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.65284375,"end":125.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.85596875000002,"end":148.19346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.81784375,"end":152.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.71596875,"end":153.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.07034375,"end":157.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.96409375000002,"end":158.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.08221875,"end":161.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.02721875,"end":159.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.58409375000002,"end":175.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.83471875,"end":198.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.81846875000002,"end":199.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.45534375000003,"end":201.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.29471875000002,"end":203.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.58971875,"end":214.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.95096875000002,"end":219.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.70534375000003,"end":228.68721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.93596875,"end":231.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.72471875000002,"end":236.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.02346875,"end":243.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.84096875,"end":244.31346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.93784375,"end":246.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.13159375,"end":247.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.39721875,"end":248.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.34221875000003,"end":259.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.26034375,"end":261.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.03659375,"end":275.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.57096875,"end":296.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.14909375,"end":299.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.36846875000003,"end":322.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.44471875,"end":327.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.08596875,"end":333.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.25721875000005,"end":336.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.63221875000005,"end":346.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.41159375,"end":346.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.82909375,"end":353.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.94284375,"end":356.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.59971875,"end":357.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.35909375,"end":360.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.20221875000004,"end":362.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.74221875,"end":363.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.73784375,"end":365.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.64471875000004,"end":372.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.36096875000004,"end":372.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.74909375000004,"end":380.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.30471875,"end":389.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.15159375,"end":389.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.53971875,"end":389.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.57346875,"end":389.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.84346875,"end":411.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.31471875000005,"end":398.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.46221875000003,"end":400.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.99346875000003,"end":402.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.07346875,"end":404.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.57096875,"end":406.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.94534375,"end":414.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.00409375000004,"end":434.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.16971875,"end":435.18659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.18659375000004,"end":439.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.48971875,"end":444.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.15596875000006,"end":452.24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議結論給本期以及我們財政委員會的委員。好,謝謝。謝謝部長。謝謝洪孟楷委員,謝謝。接著我們請黃國昌委員。黃國昌,在。"}]}},{"id":"151572","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151572","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336b04a78f1bafd3ef0cff82116bdf94ca8dcb4691eb09bf4e261617c5b69c247d15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"12:18:56 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12:31:21","影片長度":"00:12:25","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":745,"end_time":"2024-04-22T12:31:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T12:18:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1258,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時19分）謝謝主席，有請部長、警政署李副署長。"],["主席：請薛部長、李副署長。"],["薛部長富盛：劉委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長辛苦了。"],["薛部長富盛：不會。"],["劉委員建國：在第10屆第7會期，上半年的時候，有幸擔任司法及法制委員會的召委，那時候就排了環境部組織法，很感謝當時衛環及司法及法制委員的支持，迅速讓環境部組織法通過，環境部也在去年8月22日順利掛牌。我也要謝謝薛部長臨危受命，成為第一任環境部部長，但部長剩下不到一個月時間就要畢業……"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝劉委員。"],["劉委員建國：當然也感謝部長，因為臺灣的氣候變遷，還有2050淨零碳排的相關政策，有進行了長遠的規劃跟布局，我在這邊也特別感謝部長，在這麼短的時間把這些事情做到一定的程度。不過有些問題，剩下這不到一個月的時間，還是要請部長來關心，今天主席剛好排噪音的相關課題，因為有時候等到下一個部長來處理的時候，可能會緩不濟急。請部長看一個新聞，這是去年的新聞，它的內容很清楚就是說，暑假是噪音車旺季，雲林縣環警監開罰單加強打擊，然後在7至9月又要推動「靜城專案」，環保局與警察局、監理站要聯合加強稽查。我們在稽查的時候，到底是用什麼樣的方式去確定它的消音器有拔掉？"],["薛部長富盛：消音器有沒有拔掉，對我們來講不是重點，重點是它排氣的時候產生的噪音有沒有超過我們的標準，當然我們會看它的排氣管是不是符合環境部認證的排氣管。"],["劉委員建國：對，看排氣管有沒有符合環境部的認證，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是是是。"],["劉委員建國：但是，如果它的噪音值超過，我們是不是會用噪音管制法去裁罰嘛？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["劉委員建國：就是一千八到三千六嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["劉委員建國：但是如果他拔掉消音器，那罰則又不一樣，是依照道交法的第四十三條去處理嘛？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["劉委員建國：這個部分是屬於警察機關來處理，那副署長就請說明一下，你們怎麼去認定？"],["李副署長西河：他如果把這個消音的拔掉以後，我們就依照道交條例第四十三條給他處罰。"],["劉委員建國：對，你們怎麼知道他拔掉？用什麼樣的儀器去認定他拔掉，還是目視？還是從以前到現在，到現在還是用土法，用警棍去戳那個排氣管？"],["劉組長振安：排氣管的形式非常多，不能夠用一個像掃把的柄進去戳，以前是有這樣子不當的一個……"],["劉委員建國：你們沒有用掃把的柄，你們是用警棍啦！"],["劉組長振安：對啦，也有員警用警棍，那……"],["劉委員建國：以前是這樣，現在也是這樣嗎？"],["劉組長振安：現在我們禁止這樣子做，我們如果能夠判斷得出來的話，那我們就做……"],["劉委員建國：怎麼判斷？"],["劉組長振安：如果有一些排氣管可以從外觀看到它的消音器已經拆掉的話，那我們就直接來製單舉發。"],["劉委員建國：你還是沒有回答我怎麼判斷。"],["劉組長振安：那就是可以看得出來的，如果看不……"],["劉委員建國：怎麼看嘛？你會不會看嘛？"],["劉組長振安：我不會看，老實講……"],["劉委員建國：這就對啦！"],["劉組長振安：不會看的時候，如果聲音太大的時候……"],["劉委員建國：聲音太大就用噪音管制法去處理嘛。"],["劉組長振安：因為我們沒有儀器可以判斷，所以我們只能夠把這一部車拍照下來之後，送請環保單位，再去通知他來檢驗。"],["劉委員建國：送去環保單位來檢驗？"],["劉組長振安：對，有關於噪音的部分，就拍照下來……"],["劉委員建國：有關於噪音的部分，那很清楚了，對不對？如果它的噪音聲量過高，那當然用噪音管制法，由環境部、地方環保局來處理嘛，對不對？"],["劉組長振安：是。"],["劉委員建國：但是如果拔除它的消音器，誰來認定？誰來處理？"],["劉組長振安：拆除消音器這部分，的確有一些我們是沒辦法用目視來看的……"],["劉委員建國：你講的「有一些」，那等於有一些是可以嘛？"],["劉組長振安：如果從排氣管的後端可以看得出來的，那我們就……"],["劉委員建國：怎麼看嘛？"],["劉組長振安：所以就是這個部分也……"],["劉委員建國：你會不會看嘛？"],["劉組長振安：也看不出來，我老實講，我沒有在實務做過，我不會看。"],["劉委員建國：對，你現在可以馬上問你們的警察同仁，誰會看，能不能來給我們說明一下。"],["劉組長振安：基本上這一些屬於……"],["劉委員建國：你不要一直跟我爭嘛！你們有沒有辦法看得出來嘛？還是你的同仁有在你旁邊，你叫他來講給我們聽，你們是怎麼看的嘛？"],["劉組長振安：那個早期會用……"],["劉委員建國：我給你看一個案例，好不好？請部長、副署長看這個案例，桃園一名陳姓男子在110年8月9日晚上10點半遭警攔查，因他拆除排氣管消音器被開罰六千並吊扣牌照六個月，他提出申訴，最後法官認為該員警僅以現場聽聞狀況判定，法官是說「聽」、「聞」，你是說用看的，那我就不曉得你怎麼看的了。"],["薛部長富盛：沒有科學的……"],["劉委員建國：對不對？然後法官說缺乏儀器的檢查，也無從回推陳男的排氣管是否拆除消音器，因此將該罰單撤銷。所以我們今天安排這個專案報告，這個事情你不解決，你怎麼去抓噪音？你怎麼去嚇阻人家拔除消音器？沒有啊！因為我現在請教你的時候，你也沒辦法回答我，你說用看的，那你叫一個人來跟我講說怎麼看嘛，給委員會講說你怎麼看嘛！我們是要解決問題，對不對？所以我才會講你不能再像……其實也不能講像以前，現在也是這樣，還是有員警拿警棍在捅排氣管，去確定到底有沒有把消音器拔掉，當然不會拿掃把啦！"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝劉委員的建議，我覺得這個應該要去，我們跟經濟部、交通部這邊來研究一下，看看這個漏洞要怎麼去……"],["劉委員建國：對，我們就是要解決問題嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對，沒錯，我們要去面對，去解決問題。"],["劉委員建國：如果現在在處理這個事情的時候，都還用不是科學的方式，最終你們很積極地去做這方面的攔查，結果到了法院的判決是這個樣子。"],["薛部長富盛：事實上這部分可以跟原來的產品去做比對，看看是不是其中哪一個部分，比如消音器被拿掉了還是怎麼樣，當然需要花一些時間啦。"],["劉委員建國：我想我們透過質詢就是要解決問題，是不是請部長，還有警政署、交通部應該在一個月內，是不是可以來研擬，到底這個事情要用什麼樣的方式更精準，用科學的方式來做一個處理，才不會讓員警還有地方的這些環保人員……"],["薛部長富盛：對，努力了半天，結果罰單又被撤銷。"],["劉委員建國：對，好，謝謝，兩位請回。我提醒一下，不知道的事情不要胡亂回答，我想委員都有準備才會問嘛，你如果自己不清楚，回答這個模稜兩可的事情，自己都不清楚的話，我想有時候會漏氣啦！","第二件事情是這樣，部長，你有沒有看過這個貼紙？"],["薛部長富盛：我倒是沒有看過。"],["劉委員建國：這個是以前的環保署，現在變成環境部了，這個確定應該是以前做的噪音審驗合格證，沒有問題吧？"],["薛部長富盛：是，應該是嘛，張司長，這是以前我們早期……"],["張司長順欽：這是早期用的。"],["劉委員建國：不然你們現在還有什麼新的？"],["張司長順欽：現在沒有新的，現在不用這個了。"],["劉委員建國：就是啊，所以你們舊的就把它忘了？"],["薛部長富盛：現在不用，這個現在沒有在用就對了。"],["劉委員建國：這個就是你們做的嘛？"],["張司長順欽：對。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛，好，你再看旁邊這張，右邊這個是不是也是你們做的？你慎重回答喔，你前面就沒辦法認定了，你不要第二張還跟我講說是或不是喔，你也不行都不回答喔。"],["薛部長富盛：這個除了看起來顏色不一樣，裡面的包括文字、包括……感覺還蠻像的。"],["張司長順欽：這個應該有問題，這個好像是在網路上可以買到的一個貼紙……"],["劉委員建國：對。"],["張司長順欽：那個要請消保官去查。"],["劉委員建國：好，所以這個是不是你們的？"],["張司長順欽：不是。"],["劉委員建國：不是，好，那再問一次，左邊是不是你們的？審驗合格證是不是你們的？右邊的你跟我講不是了嘛，對不對？你確定了嘛？"],["薛部長富盛：理論上環境部應該不會去貼高噪音這種東西，比較低噪音、比較好的東西才會去貼，邏輯的……"],["劉委員建國：對，那右邊這個叫做噪音審驗不合格證，肯定不是你們？"],["薛部長富盛：我們大概不會去貼這種東西。"],["劉委員建國：到現在不敢果斷地答復我，那就很奇怪了，然後自己貼的東西，當然那時候你不是當司長，我知道，也不是薛部長在當部長的任內，不過基本上一個合格的檢驗證，誠如剛才部長答復我的，對於相關的排氣管，我們有一個認證的機制，我也必須在這個地方去貼一個相關的驗證合格的標章，也就是那個名牌，怎麼會有人去貼這種東西？然後我們要怎麼處理？"],["薛部長富盛：你是說貼右手邊這種東西喔？"],["劉委員建國：對啊，就是貼這個噪音審驗不合格證啦。"],["薛部長富盛：這種東西我覺得，環境部假如有發現就應該發新聞稿公開說明並透過媒體澄清，環境部不可能去貼所謂的高噪音還是什麼這一類的，這個就是不合邏輯的概念。"],["劉委員建國：是，但是人家是貼高噪音不合格證，他沒有講合格，他是講不合格證喔。"],["薛部長富盛：這部分環境部我們會站出來去釐清……"],["劉委員建國：這個還是在網路上有在賣，剛才司長自己講的嘛，對不對？站在環境主管的機關，這要怎麼處理？有沒有罰則？"],["薛部長富盛：這個貼紙大概沒有罰則，但是他不可以用行政院環保署車輛的名義，不可以用侵犯到我們的機關的……"],["劉委員建國：對，公部門機關相關的名稱都不可以去使用，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是啊！"],["劉委員建國：所以其實已經觸及了紅線，也是在挑釁公部門。"],["薛部長富盛：我覺得他絕對是觸法，這個是挑戰公權力。"],["劉委員建國：好，我們知道了，那要怎麼處理嘛？"],["薛部長富盛：這是挑戰公權力，我覺得這個是……"],["劉委員建國：要怎麼處理？"],["薛部長富盛：應該要有罰則，我們來瞭解一下細節。"],["張司長順欽：我們有透過公平會這邊，請他們幫忙查處。"],["劉委員建國：怎麼查處？他們去查處是怎麼查處？這個有罰則嗎？"],["張司長順欽：在公平交易法上面是有規定這個不行，現在就是請他下架，不能再賣了。"],["劉委員建國：是，你們之後還會有改裝排氣管認證的相關制度，對不對？現在是緩衝期，明年你們就要全面上路了。"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["劉委員建國：那之前就有這個狀況，未來一定會有其他狀況再發生嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["劉委員建國：如果主管機關都不積極去面對這個事情，這種事情會持續下去，對你們在推動這整個相關政策的過程裡面也是一個衝突跟挑戰啦！就請你們注意這件事情。"],["薛部長富盛：OK，我們來解決這個問題。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝劉委員。"],["劉委員建國：最後，剛剛我特別要求環境部、交通部還有警政署針對消音器拔掉認定的科學根據，在一個月內一定要提供給委員會來做參考，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：OK。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝主席，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝劉委員。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員。接下來請羅智強委員發言。那我先宣告中午不休息，質詢到登記委員發言結束後才休息。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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。我在這個上一屆,就第10屆的時候,也第7會期,這個上半年的時候,有興趣擔任社會法制的召委。那時候就排了環境部的組織法。"},{"start":34.125,"end":54.922,"text":"那也很感謝當時的衛環跟司法法制的委員大家都非常支持迅速讓這個環境部的執法通過嘛那環境部就可以在去年的8月22日來順利掛牌那也要謝謝薛部長臨為壽命成為第一任的這個環境部的部長但是部長現在現在不到一個月就要畢業先有"},{"start":58.295,"end":75.92,"text":"當然也感謝部長因為台灣的氣候變遷還有2050要進行碳排的相關政策進行產品的規劃跟佈局我在這邊也特別感謝部長在這麼短的時間來把這些事情做到一定的程度"},{"start":76.92,"end":96.794,"text":"不過有些問題,剩下這不到一個時間還是要請部長來關心因為今天主席剛好排這個噪音的相關的課題因為有時候等到現在部長來處理的時候可能會緩不濟急部長看一個新聞這個是去年的新聞那很清楚就是說暑假的噪音"},{"start":97.995,"end":99.416,"text":"我們在稽查的時候到底是用什麼方式去確定它的這個消音器有拔掉嗎?"},{"start":128.152,"end":141.902,"text":"消音器有沒有拔掉對我們來講不是重點是說他排氣的時候產生的噪音有沒有超過我們的標準當然我們會對他排氣管看他是不是符合環境部認證的那個排氣管"},{"start":142.922,"end":170.06,"text":"對,看排氣管有沒有環境部有認證嘛 對不對但是如果它的噪音值超過我們用噪音管制法去做裁划嘛就1800到3600嘛 對不對但是它拔掉這個消音器那划子又不一樣是依照道交法的43條去做處理嘛那這個部分是屬於檢查機關來做處理那副長就請說明一下你們怎麼去認定"},{"start":171.819,"end":193.841,"text":"他如果把這個消音的拔掉以後我們就到這條4、3條給他處罰對阿你們怎麼知道他拔掉用什麼樣的儀器去認定他拔掉還是木式還是以前的到現在喔到現在還是用那個那個圖法用剪棍去戳那個排氣管"},{"start":194.411,"end":196.751,"text":"我們如果能夠判斷的出來的話 那我們就做判斷"},{"start":222.116,"end":235.961,"text":"那如果說有一些排氣管可以從外觀裡面看到它的排氣那個那個消音器已經拆掉的話那我們就直接來自断聚化那就是可以看得出來"},{"start":238.847,"end":256.823,"text":"從就是說 我不會看 老實講 不會看的時候如果聲音太大的時候 聲音太大就用噪音管制法去處理嘛 因為我們沒有儀器可以判斷 沒有嘛 所以我們只能夠把這一部車把它拍照下來之後 送請那個環保單位再去通知他來檢驗"},{"start":257.944,"end":276.457,"text":"送去環保單位來檢驗有關你噪音的部分就拍照下來有關你這部分那很清楚了對不對他如果噪音的聲量過高那當然要用噪音管制法環境部地方環保局來處理對不對但是如果拔除他的消音器誰來認定"},{"start":277.898,"end":291.523,"text":"誰來處理?拆除消音器的確就是說我們有一些是沒辦法用目視來看你講的有一些那等於是有一些是可以嗎?那如果說從排氣管的後端可以看得出來的那我們怎麼看嗎?所以就是這個部分"},{"start":292.503,"end":292.623,"text":"主席"},{"start":310.151,"end":329.538,"text":"那個早期會用...好啦我給你看一個案例好不好請部長跟副長看這個案例嘛這是一個桃園的一名全新男子在114點8月9號晚上10點半召警攔查嘛齁因他拆除排氣管箱去被開花6千嘛並調供牌照這個6個月嘛他提出申訴最後法官認為該院警經理現場聽聞狀況判定聽啊、聞啊"},{"start":334.605,"end":363.055,"text":"你是說這麼看的喔?那我就不曉得你怎麼看的啊?對不對?然後最後就是缺乏儀器的檢查也無從回推承攬排氣管視火拆除消音器因此該罰單撤銷啊?雖然今天你要把你罪犯報告這個事情你不解決你怎麼去抓噪音?你怎麼去嚇阻人家拔除消音器?沒有啊!因為我現在請教你的時候你也沒辦法回答我啊你說用看的啊那你叫一個人來跟我講說怎麼看嘛給委會講說你怎麼看嘛"},{"start":364.076,"end":379.271,"text":"我們是要解決問題嘛對不對所以我才想說你不能再像其實也不能講像以前現在是這樣啊還是有員警拿警棍在捅那個排氣管啊去確定到底有沒有把這個消音器拔掉啊"},{"start":381.767,"end":407.664,"text":"當然不會拿掃保啦謝謝劉委員的建議啦我覺得這個應該去我們跟這個經濟部跟交通部這邊來研究一下看看這個漏洞要怎麼去我們就是要解決問題嘛對不對如果現在在做這個事情的時候都還用不是科學的方式到最終你們很積極的去做這樣的攬查結果到了法院的判決是這個樣子"},{"start":409.987,"end":419.198,"text":"實際上這個可以跟原來的產品去做比對嗎?看看是不是其中哪一個部分消音器被拿掉還是怎麼樣?當然需要花一些時間"},{"start":420.565,"end":446.224,"text":"我想我們透過質詢就是要解決問題嘛是不是部長還有警政署還有交通部應該是一個月內是不是可以來研擬到底這事情要用什麼樣的方式更精準用科學方式來做這樣的一個處理才不會讓遠景還有地方的這些環保人員努力了半天結果罰單就被撤銷好謝謝兩位請回好不好"},{"start":449.366,"end":450.568,"text":"第二件事情是這樣,部長有沒有看過這個貼紙"},{"start":469.248,"end":497.628,"text":"我倒是沒有看過啦這個是以前環保署現在變成環境部啦齁這確定應該是所以前做的這個噪音審驗合格證OK沒有問題吧是應該是嘛齁我們這是以前這是早期用的早期阿不然你現在還有什麼新的現在沒有新的就對了不用這個啦阿所以你國會就把他放在那裡了這現在不可以用就對了阿這就你們做的嘛對阿對嘛齁好阿你又看邊這張"},{"start":500.171,"end":520.52,"text":"阿右邊這個是不是也是你們做的?你慎重回答喔你前面就沒有辦法去認定了你不要第二章你跟我講說是或不是喔阿你也不行都不回答喔OK"},{"start":526.756,"end":548.202,"text":"這個除了看起來顏色不一樣,裡面的包括文字包括那個,看起來蠻像的這應該有問題,這個好像是在那個網路上可以買到的一個貼紙請蕭保官去查好,所以這個是不是你們的?不是好,那再問一次,左邊是不是你們的?審驗合格證是不是你們的?右邊你跟我講不是了嘛,對不對?你確定了嗎?"},{"start":553.82,"end":580.379,"text":"理論上這個環境部應該不會去貼高噪音的這種東西對啊低噪音比較好的東西才會去貼好不好那右邊邏輯的右邊這個叫做噪音審驗不合格證肯定不是你們我們當然不會去貼到現在不敢果定的去答覆我那就很奇怪了然後自己貼的東西當然那時候你不是當司長我知道也不是部長你要當部長任內不過這基本上"},{"start":582.012,"end":601.283,"text":"一個合格檢驗證基本上就是剛才陳副部長答覆我的對相關的排氣管我們有個認證的這樣的一個機制嘛我也必須在這個地方去貼相關的一個驗證的合格標章嘛是那個零牌嘛這個怎麼會有人去貼這種東西然後那我們要怎麼處理"},{"start":603.652,"end":627.155,"text":"你說貼右手邊證﹖對對對對對貼這個噪音審驗不合格證環境部假如有發現就應該去包括公開說明去這個發新聞稿跟澄清透過媒體其他環境部不可能去貼所謂的高噪音還是什麼這類這個是不合邏輯的概念是喔但是人家是貼高噪音不合格證啦"},{"start":628.477,"end":628.757,"text":"有沒有華哲?"},{"start":643.96,"end":671.96,"text":"這個貼紙大概沒有法則但是他不可以用行政院環保署車輛的這個不可以用這個侵犯到等於說我們的這個機關的那個嘛對公部門機關相關的名稱都不可以去使用對不對這其實已經觸及了紅線啊也是在挑釁公部門我們知道要怎麼處理嘛這挑戰公權力我覺得這個是"},{"start":673.281,"end":682.272,"text":"應該怎麼處理?我們來瞭解一下事情。怎麼炒除?他們去炒除怎麼炒除?這個有花折嗎?"},{"start":684.195,"end":712.77,"text":"後來這個公民交易法上面是有規定這個不行的那現在就請他下架不能再慢是因為你們後來還會有這個相關的改裝排氣管認證的制度嘛對不對明年現在是緩衝期嘛明年你們就要全面來上路了嘛是對那之前就有這個狀況現在未來一定會有其他的狀況在發生嘛是那如果說站在主管機關都不積極去面對這個事情這種事情"},{"start":714.836,"end":741.499,"text":"會持續下去啦那也對整個整個你們在推動這個相關的政策過程裡面也是一個衝突跟挑戰啦OKOK我們來解決這個問題啦好謝謝最後剛剛就是剛剛我特別要求就環境部還有交通部還有檢證署針對這個消音器拔掉的認定的一個科學根據是不是一個月內一定要提供給委員隊來做參考好不好好謝謝主席好謝謝"},{"start":743.26,"end":743.723,"text":"好,謝謝劉建國委員"}]}},{"id":"151571","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151571","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336d891c5bf9bee32607dee175bc8e0be1adcb4691eb09bf4e2501107371580711f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"12:19:12 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12:26:23","影片長度":"00:07:11","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-10"},"duration":431,"end_time":"2024-04-22T12:26:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T12:19:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":861,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時19分）謝謝主席、召委，本席發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，我們共同來討論一個很重要的議題，現在詐騙非常多，因此民眾遭遇跨境網購詐騙，他已經完稅提領網購的詐騙貨物，但是依照我們現在的關稅法第六十四條規定要申請退稅，他也沒有辦法依照同法的第五十一條申請退換或免稅，考量民眾都已經被詐騙了，已經有金錢的損失，如果稅費又不允許民眾申請退還的話，無疑就是對於民眾造成二度的傷害。國家組成了一個國家打詐隊，在國家打詐跟保護民眾的權益，給予受詐騙民眾溫暖的政策可以說是不同調的、不符合的。所以請教部長，關稅署是不是可以去研擬制定詐騙查核的標準？如果消費者可以舉證，確實他是遭受到詐騙，那應該是可以辦理退稅、退貨，在這樣的情況之下，關稅局可以來做退還的工作。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員，這個部分我們也很重視，民眾遭到網購詐騙的話，對於已繳的關稅要怎麼樣來做更便民的處理，這個部分關務署已經在研議了，已經在研議中了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：怎麼研議呢？多久？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我是不是請署長說明？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，請署長說明。"],["彭署長英偉：跟委員報告，我們會簡化相關的程序，目前關稅法沒有辦法去適用的部分，我們用行政規則的方式去簡化相關的程序……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，這個就是政府應該要做的，再請說明。"],["彭署長英偉：我們現在在會各關執行上的一些意見，預計大概1個月內就可以發布相關的措施。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：1個月之內可以發布嘛，因為現在是地球村了、無國界，我們要保護民眾，但是他要舉證，在這樣的情況，你1個月後預計要公告的是什麼內容呢？"],["彭署長英偉：目前就是針對退稅的部分，如果是詐騙的話，怎麼去舉證的問題，我們會比照金管會的相關規定，如果他有跟警政署報案立案的話，那我們就會處理……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：官方認證？"],["彭署長英偉：是、是、是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：OK。"],["彭署長英偉：要證明所謂的貨物的確是網購進來的一些事證，要民眾提出證明，其他一些比較細節的程序都會把它簡化掉，讓本來不符合關稅法的規定可以透過這樣的行政規則來簡便民眾退稅。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，這就是本席一直追蹤、一直關心，因為民眾太多了、太多了而且很痛苦，我們要解決他們的問題，所以我們1個月內就會公布嘛？"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：解決民眾問題，如果他在網購是真的被詐騙的，他舉證而且也已經報案，官方也認證過，那麼你們就可以辦理，以最簡便的SOP流程來辦理退貨、退稅，是不是如此？"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，署長談這樣就是我們要為人民所做的，我也希望你們在1個月內要公布時，應該要宣傳，對不對？一定要宣傳，不要只有在你們網站上面公告，沒有人知道，不行！一定要宣傳，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我就贊許你，這件事情一定要解決民眾的痛苦，一定要好好的宣傳，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要跟你討論的是關稅法第四十九條的免稅規定，本席一直在關心，因為我們是整個地球村，你到各地一定會買東西，大家互相交流，在這樣的情況之下，我們主要是要符合國際的慣例、公眾利益以及競爭成本的考量，所以給予進口貨物的免稅，該條的第三項特別規定，授權訂定入境旅客攜帶行李物品報驗稅放辦法，鎖定入境旅客攜帶的行李，免稅額度我們從1989年修訂到現在，部長，1989年到現在，這樣幾年了？1989年到現在幾年了？只有2萬塊而已，我們只有2萬塊……"],["莊部長翠雲：這個免稅額度，我們現在已經要調整到3萬5,000，而且……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還是不夠！"],["莊部長翠雲：相關的規定已經在預告當中了，已經在預告中了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們30年沒有檢討，我們跟不上國際的腳步，舉例日本的免稅額是20萬日圓，大概就是4萬3,000左右，日本鄰近國家都4萬3,000了，我也知道大家很關心，你們也在努力，預計要什麼時候公告啊？"],["莊部長翠雲：已經預告了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：預告到什麼時候要執行？"],["莊部長翠雲：在6月底之前就會發布實施。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：6月底開始執行之。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是部長，你們現在公告的免稅額多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：3萬、5萬，不是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼叫3萬、5萬？"],["莊部長翠雲：3萬5,000。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：3萬5,000啦！對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那我們為什麼比日本還少呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們不只蒐集日本，也收進其他鄰近國家了，對，我們這個金額應該算是合宜啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長你再去思考啦，署長也在這邊，因為大家很關心，整個地球村，要怎麼樣讓我們跟國際可以充分的互動，我覺得這個是非常重要的，所以我們現在預告到6月底來執行之，是從30年沒有調的2萬塊來到3萬5,000塊。本席具體建議，6月底開始執行，我們再執行一段時間，因為通膨的關係，如果有必要，我們再來提升，好不好？循序漸進來提升，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我們先用3萬5,000來實施。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍代）：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員，接著我們請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 案；\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案","agenda_id":"1133201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.40159375,"end":11.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.505968750000001,"end":17.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.69909375,"end":21.293468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.816593750000003,"end":41.391593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.66159375,"end":57.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.165343750000005,"end":60.88221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.08471875,"end":81.48659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.89159375,"end":84.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.11471875000001,"end":87.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.66284375000001,"end":90.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.81846875000001,"end":92.43846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.75909375,"end":93.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.75471875000001,"end":94.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.81784375000001,"end":99.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.62284375,"end":117.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.07221875,"end":114.15659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.32096875,"end":115.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.23596875000001,"end":130.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.15409375000002,"end":133.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.76534375,"end":140.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.81909375,"end":145.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.51034375,"end":147.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.05846875,"end":149.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.81346875,"end":149.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.83034375,"end":151.24784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.38284375,"end":156.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.86284375,"end":199.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.83534375000002,"end":172.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.37096875,"end":174.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.72971875000002,"end":204.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.38284375,"end":207.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.49221875,"end":209.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.48346875000001,"end":212.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.82471875000002,"end":213.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.28034375000001,"end":230.83034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.83034375000003,"end":231.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.13409375,"end":242.65971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.72721875000002,"end":242.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.74409375000002,"end":244.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.99721875,"end":306.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.59409375,"end":258.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.36284375,"end":309.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.05846875000003,"end":313.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.10034375000004,"end":323.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.28034375000004,"end":324.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.67659375,"end":323.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.08159375,"end":328.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.05971875,"end":329.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.32534375,"end":333.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.36284375,"end":336.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.85159375,"end":341.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.81721875,"end":346.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.57596875,"end":346.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":346.89659375,"end":347.40284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.40284375000005,"end":350.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.08596875,"end":350.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.44034375,"end":350.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.49096875000004,"end":350.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.54159375,"end":352.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.79034375000003,"end":354.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.62534375,"end":355.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.01346875,"end":358.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.14784375000005,"end":361.29096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.53159375,"end":360.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.58221875000004,"end":360.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.68346875000003,"end":362.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.45534375,"end":363.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.88971875000004,"end":369.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.71159375,"end":373.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.22159375,"end":373.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.25534375,"end":380.34284375000004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這個部分我們也很重視就是民眾遭到網購詐騙的話那對於已繳的關稅的部分要怎麼樣來做更便民的處理那這個部分關務署已經在研議了已經在研議中了那怎麼研議呢好請署長說明"},{"start":119.266,"end":140.436,"text":"跟委員報告我們會簡化相關的程序就目前關稅法部分沒有辦法去適用的部分我們用行政規則的方式去簡化相關的程序對這個就是政府應該要做的來再請說明那我們現在在會各官執行上的一些意見那預計大概一個月內就可以發佈相關的措施"},{"start":140.856,"end":155.936,"text":"一個月內之內可以發布嗎?因為這個是現在地球村的無國界民眾我們要保護他但是他舉證在這樣的情況那你一個月後預計要公告的是什麼內容呢?"},{"start":158.241,"end":184.174,"text":"就是目前這個退稅的部分如果是詐騙的話怎麼去舉證的問題那我們會比照金管會相關的一個規定就是說如果他有跟警政署報案提案的話那我們就會處理官方認證是是是那要證明說這個所謂的貨物的確是網購進來的一些市政那要民眾來提出證明"},{"start":185.535,"end":212.897,"text":"那其他的大概就是一些比較細節的程序部分都會把它簡化掉來讓本來不符合關稅法的規定可以透過這樣的一個行政規則來簡便民眾來退稅對 這個就是本期一直追蹤一直關心因為民眾啊太多了太多了而且很痛苦那我們要解決他的問題所以我們一個月內就會公佈嘛是"},{"start":213.377,"end":213.658,"text":"議員王世堅"},{"start":231.3,"end":257.139,"text":"是,好,我也希望部長,這個署長談這樣這是我們要為人民所做的那我也希望在你一個月內要公布的時候你應該要宣傳,對不對一定要宣傳,你不要只有在你的網站上面公告沒人知道不行,一定要宣傳,好不好我就夾住你暫許這件事情一定要解決民眾的痛苦那麼一定要好好的宣傳,好不好"},{"start":258.459,"end":285.446,"text":"接下來本席要跟你討論的是關稅法第49條的免稅規定本席一直關心因為我們是整個地球村你到各地去買東西一定會買東西大家互相的交流在這樣的一個情況之下我們主要是要符合國際的慣例公眾利益以及積增成本的考量所以給予進口貨物的免稅"},{"start":286.346,"end":299.639,"text":"那麼該條的第三項特別規定授權訂定入境旅客攜帶行李物品檢驗稅放辦法所定的入境旅客攜帶的行李免稅額度從1989年修訂到現在"},{"start":306.505,"end":313.927,"text":"部長1989年到現在這樣幾年了?1989年現在幾年了?我們只有兩萬塊這個免稅額度我們現在已經要調整到三萬五千而且相關的規定已經在預告當中了我們預30年沒有檢討我們跟不上國際的腳步我舉例"},{"start":329.111,"end":358.453,"text":"日本他的免稅額是20萬的日元大概就是4萬3左右日本年輕國家都4萬3了我也知道大家很關心你們也在努力預計要什麼時候公告啊已經預告了預告到什麼時候要執行在6月底之前就會發布實施6月底開始執行之嘛那但是部長你們現在公告的這個免稅額多少"},{"start":359.209,"end":360.851,"text":"我們不只收集日本,也收集其他鄰近國家。"},{"start":378.094,"end":399.668,"text":"對,我們這個金額應該算是合宜啦部長你再去思考啦那署長也在這邊因為大家很關心整個地球村我們要怎麼樣讓我們跟國際可以充分的互動我覺得這個是非常重要的所以我們現在預告到6月底來執行資是從30年沒有調的2萬塊"},{"start":402.63,"end":424.512,"text":"來到3萬5千塊本期具體建議6月底開始執行我們再執行一段時間因為通盤的關係如果有必要我們再來提升好不好徐君進進來提升好不好先用3萬5實施好謝謝謝謝那個瓊英委員喔接著我們請洪孟楷委員"}]}},{"id":"151570","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151570","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336985d9fd775dbd2497dee175bc8e0be1adcb4691eb09bf4e29ec3e105ef7df5dc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:08:15 - 12:18:54","影片長度":"00:10:39","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-10"},"duration":639,"end_time":"2024-04-22T12:18:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T12:08:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":789,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（12時8分）謝謝主席，請莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：部長好。我們金門地區因為缺水很乾旱，水如果從臺灣本島運過去的話非常貴，而且緩不濟急，遠水也救不了近火！所以我們做了一個大陸的引水計畫，也從大陸供水過來了，引水已經進來5年，為了配合這個，我們要做一些淨水池、淨水廠。這是金門的自來水擴建計畫第一期是13.55億，根據當時候行政院103年的核定，這個錢叫金門縣政府自己出，很不公平啦！但是因為我們真的是缺水常有乾旱，不得已我們也就答應了，後續再由經濟部來攤提、來補貼，由金門縣政府先出錢，然後經濟部再來還我們。那時候擴建的資金是這樣子，13.55億裡頭其中有2.4億是跟貴部財政部的地方建設基金貸款，剩下我們跟其他銀行永豐、土銀貸款，然後由金門縣政府自己來做這些事情，經費跟這些單位借以外，我們出一些錢還要付利息。","但是自來水這個東西，事實上不應該是地方政府的自治事項啦，我們承擔民生供水，中央政府對我們來講是很不公平啦！全臺灣的水怎麼來、誰付錢，這都是中央的事情啊！可是我們是離島，因為我們自己缺水，水從臺灣過來事實上很不划算，我們為了要有水從大陸買水、進水，做這些設備要自己出錢。當初中央是說由我們先出，跟財政部借錢，經濟部再墊還給我們，您瞭解這個背景嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，您瞭解這個背景。但是現在我們就欠你們地方建設基金2.4億，金門縣政府就欠財政部2.4億嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：目前是2.4億。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，欠你們錢啦！但是地方建設基金，在財政部跟國發會、主計總處溝通，109年的時候，地方建設基金要解編嘛？"],["莊部長翠雲：裁撤。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，就是沒有這個基金嘛！現在變成我們就要還你們2.4億啊？當初叫我們墊的時候是說經濟部每一年會慢慢攤提來還我們，就是我們幫經濟部跟財政部借錢、墊這個錢，然後經濟部每一年的水費差價，比如說多少錢慢慢、慢慢還，我們再還給財政部，慢慢、慢慢還嘛！而現在你們解編，財政部要金門縣政府一次還2.4億，我們現在沒有辦法、沒有能力啊！本來應該是中央政府的事情，對吧？我們先幫忙承擔了，然後現在因為你們中央政府要解編基金，叫我們一次還，怎麼辦呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，當時金門向地方建設基金來貸款的時候已經就簽了最長是5年的貸款期，陸陸續續也都在還，所以最後期限到1月9號還差2.4億。所以這個部分，建設基金雖然109年裁撤，但是它陸續該還的還是要還，但並不是因為建設基金裁撤所以才要還這2.4億，而是原來就是因為貸款的合約是5年這樣的一個情況，所以跟建設基金裁撤……"],["陳委員玉珍：因為這個涉及到經濟部嘛，經濟部要慢慢的給我們錢，讓我們來還你們，本來是這個樣子嘛！這不是只有你們這個部的事情，但是在財政委員會，我也常常跟主計總處講，你看我跟朱澤民講過多少次，我說我們現在就財政不好、沒有錢嘛，不像以前那麼有錢，沒有錢嘛！叫他把我們的財政劃分降一點，從3級降到5級，讓我們可以少支出一點嘛！他說你們很有錢，可是我們現在欠你們2.4億還不出來怎麼辦呢？沒辦法還啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：不會啦！金門縣政府的財政狀況應該還不錯啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：你們不能一直說因為我們很有錢，本來是中央要做的事情，水這個東西，以前電也是我們自己負責啦，我們以前是金門電廠，水現在還是我們金門自來水廠，金大如果沒有錢，我們要幫忙出錢；金門醫院沒有錢，我們要幫忙出錢，金門都要自己負擔一個中央政府應該做的事情，你是要支持我們金門獨立嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想不是啦！我想當時都有一個計畫在執行，然後經濟部也有編列預算做全額的補助，這個部分都有在做。"],["陳委員玉珍：我是說現在因為沒有錢，有沒有什麼其他方案，我們再跟你們借？反正你們……"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們再來研議。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們說我們有錢嘛，也不怕我們欠啦！讓我們繼續再借。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們再來研議看看怎麼處理，好不好？"],["陳委員玉珍：就是晚一點還啦！你們可以幫我們研擬什麼方案？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們再來研議，因為這個事情我這兩天才知道，是不是再研議看看？"],["陳委員玉珍：對，我們在地方首長會議跟張景森政委也有討論這件事情，縣政府也反映得很厲害。"],["莊部長翠雲：我知道，你們在首長聯繫會報也有提案。"],["陳委員玉珍：有提這個案子。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們會再討論。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們也要整體考慮，當然因為不是你一個人的事情，也要整體考慮，我們因為引水讓中央政府省了好多錢，跟大陸進水就省得從臺灣這麼遠1噸500塊的運費運過來，省很多錢，而且讓金門地下水的使用比例降低，而且又度過了3次的旱災啦，這個事實上影響很大。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以這個部分，你幫我們看看2.4億，反正你說金門縣的財政不錯，對不對？所以是一個好的客戶，繼續再借，我們利息慢慢付，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們會再續行討論這部分，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：幫我們檢討一下，然後還沒有還錢，不要扣我們統籌分配款喔！這個不要忘記，這麼規矩的好學生，什麼事情都擔下來自己做，不該自己做的事情，依法水、電、醫院、學校，大學和醫院喔！金門縣政府都貼錢耶，連金門大橋我們都自己貼錢下去啊！什麼都貼錢，我們是為了金門的建設發展，不得已自己……你們都知道，我們勒緊褲帶很辛苦，還要喝高粱酒。好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：下一個，我們不是從大陸進口水嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：進口水進來，這個水本來就應該是中央政府要做，現在我們地方政府自己來做，而我們還要繳納營業稅，這個不合理吧？你看，雖然錢不是很多，幾百萬啦，你看我們相關的加值型及非加值型營業稅法第九條、第九條之一有講，進口以下貨物免徵營業稅。你看，其中有一個因應經濟特殊狀況，調節物資進口，像小麥、大麥、玉米、黃豆，這一種都是民生必需嘛！那水是不是民生必需？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，因為營業稅是屬於一般的消費稅，所以只要在銷售的時候都會要課徵營業稅……"],["陳委員玉珍：那水要賣給誰啊？水就是金門縣政府給百姓，為了要一定的價錢，跟臺灣百姓一樣的水價嘛！所以金門縣政府自己進了水進來，還要貼錢，還要自己做什麼水廠對吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：全部都自己貼，雖然這個稅是幾百萬而已，但也是可以在裡頭修法，你看如果大麥、小麥、玉米、黃豆這些都可以機動的調整，金門這個水應該也可以機動調整啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分……"],["陳委員玉珍：因為這是民生必需品，不是拿來賣的、不是拿來賺錢的啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，但有關於虧損的部分，經濟部也編列了預算來做撥補……"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，編列預算就編得比較慢啊！我們先墊錢，剛剛我不是跟你說過前提了嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：嗯。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以我們中間要墊很多錢，你們又要叫我們趕快一次還，我們現在還不起啊！所以地方可以省的要讓我們省嘛，而且這個是符合照顧民生經濟啊！你可以考慮一下，這個是民生經濟，這個是水嘛，這是民生必需品，不是買來營利的，還虧錢，你也知道……"],["莊部長翠雲：稅的部分跟這個款項不一樣，它是因為調節物資供應做一個機動性的調整……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，我知道。"],["莊部長翠雲：所以每3個月……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒關係，我們可以不要機動，我們可以長期嘛，你可以把它修成長期的，不用機動啦，因為水是必需品，長期都要用的。"],["莊部長翠雲：長期就不能適用這一項了嘛。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，但是我們可以多一項啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：水是民生必需品，而且這本來就是中央應該負責的，事實上如果沒有，到時候經濟部也要再貼錢進來嘛，那何必這樣子，你們兩個部會可能要協調一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：我想這個稅的制度……"],["陳委員玉珍：站在照顧離島的立場，事實上這真的是你們的事情，不是我們的事情，所有事情都叫我們自己來……"],["莊部長翠雲：我想離島部分的離島建設條例裡面已經有相關的一些照顧的條款……"],["陳委員玉珍：是，那到時候我們寫在離島建設條例裡頭，好不好？我們從離島建設條例來寫，我也可以寫在裡頭啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有，離島建設條例已經有相關的，就金門水廠案，本島的部分都可以有相關的補貼啊！"],["陳委員玉珍：好，那你就用那個當法源，讓我們營業稅免徵嘛，你就把那個當法源就可以了，那可以啊，如果你同意這樣，不修法我也可以同意啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：有不一樣的……"],["陳委員玉珍：是不多錢啦，一年大概幾百萬啦！但也是對地區影響很大……"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，這是不一樣的事……"],["陳委員玉珍：我的意思是原則啦，修在哪裡我都可以，但是原則就是這個民生基本、民生需要，水、電這些都是中央政府應該負擔的，不然到時候我質詢院長，請他把水廠收過去當臺灣水廠，不要做金門，以前我們電也是這樣，全部都我們自己出嘛！我想因為在座可能很多人不瞭解……"],["莊部長翠雲：在臺灣水跟電也是要課營業稅的。"],["陳委員玉珍：我知道，但是我的意思是，因為臺灣反正是經濟部在出的嘛，都是你們臺灣自來水公司啊，那個都是臺灣的、都是政府的，我們都是地方政府自己出啊！我想大部分在場的人都不瞭解，所有東西包括金門的水、醫療、教育什麼東西都要自己出錢，不能說自己很有錢，要求調降也都不願意，部長請給我們多多支持好嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，我想這個部分還是要通盤的考量，通案性的……"],["陳委員玉珍：對，你通盤的考量一下，在院會裡頭幫我們多說一下吧！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們再考量，是，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：多多考量好嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：多多考量是不是？好，謝謝。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，下一位請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 案；\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案","agenda_id":"1133201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.654718750000001,"end":5.650343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.71784375,"end":18.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.42034375,"end":39.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.99096875,"end":42.471593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.79221875,"end":43.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.31096875,"end":70.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.60221875,"end":71.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.24346875,"end":74.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.93909375,"end":76.25534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.64346875000001,"end":82.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.93784375,"end":83.79846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.96284375,"end":115.01721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.64159375000001,"end":121.59846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.71659375,"end":128.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.77034375,"end":135.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.97596875000002,"end":149.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.16784375,"end":166.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.73909375000002,"end":171.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.10534375,"end":174.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.34971875000002,"end":179.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.27284375000002,"end":181.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.30221875,"end":183.19221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.57596875000002,"end":185.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.53784375,"end":203.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.06784375,"end":196.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.70409375000003,"end":202.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.11721875,"end":223.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.75159375,"end":223.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.55721875,"end":223.64159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.64159375000003,"end":223.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.79346875000002,"end":223.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.82721875000001,"end":223.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.96221875,"end":224.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.01284375,"end":253.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.46784375000001,"end":228.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.13471875000002,"end":254.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.42159375000003,"end":254.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.97846875000002,"end":255.26534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.26534375000003,"end":255.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.28221875000003,"end":255.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.63659375,"end":260.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.85534375000003,"end":273.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.11971875,"end":269.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.82784375,"end":282.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.77159375,"end":282.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.17659375,"end":283.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.22721875,"end":293.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.39471875000004,"end":293.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.80784375,"end":293.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.85846875000004,"end":300.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.93846875,"end":297.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.27534375000005,"end":302.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.08096875,"end":302.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.22846875000005,"end":302.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.70096875,"end":302.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.73471875,"end":302.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.97096875,"end":317.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.58159375,"end":313.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.64846875,"end":315.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.37409375000004,"end":316.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.24721875,"end":350.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.26409375000003,"end":323.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.68221875,"end":341.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.47096875,"end":343.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.69034375,"end":343.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.65971875,"end":350.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.71034375000005,"end":351.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.21221875000003,"end":352.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.27971875000003,"end":353.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.31346875,"end":353.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.71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這個我們金門地區這個在因為缺水嘛 很乾旱 那水如果從這個台灣本島運過去的話 非常貴而且環不濟急嘛 原水救不了進火"},{"start":19.631,"end":36.417,"text":"所以我們做了一個大陸的飲水計劃也從大陸供水過來了為了配合這個飲水已經5年了這個水已經進來5年為了配合這個我們要做一些淨水池、淨水廠就一個金門的自來水擴建計劃第一期是13.55億根據當時候行政院103元的核定這個錢叫金門縣政府自己出"},{"start":44.42,"end":47.521,"text":"財政部的地方建設基金貸款那剩下我們跟其他銀行啊永豐啊圖銀啊貸款喔然後"},{"start":71.352,"end":83.535,"text":"由金門縣政府自己來做這些事情從經費跟這些單位借我們自己出借以外我們出一些錢然後我們還要付這個利息但是呢"},{"start":85.031,"end":87.532,"text":"自來水這個東西事實上不應該是地方政府的自治事項我們承擔民生供水對中央政府來講對我們來講是很不公平全台灣的水怎麼來誰付錢這都是中央的事情"},{"start":101.596,"end":121.146,"text":"我們是離島啊,因為我們自己缺水,中央的水從台灣過來實際上也很不划算。我們為了要有水,我們從大陸買水、淨水做這些設備,我們要自己出錢喔。那這個當初中央是說由我們先出跟財政部借錢,經濟部再電還給我們。齁,這個您了解這個背景嗎?"},{"start":123.767,"end":148.08,"text":"但是現在我們就欠你們這個地方建設基金2.4億嗎?基本憲政我就欠財政部2.4億嗎?目前是2.4億欠你們錢啊但是地方建設基金在你們財政部跟國發會主計總部溝通109年的時候地方建設基金要解編嘛猜測猜測對就是沒有這個基金嘛那現在變成我們就要還你們2.4億啊"},{"start":150.579,"end":155.923,"text":"當初說叫我們墊的時候是說經濟部每一年會慢慢攤提來還我們就是我們幫經濟部跟財政部借錢墊這個錢然後經濟部每一年的這個水費差價比如說多少錢慢慢慢慢還我們再還給財政部慢慢慢慢還嘛那現在你們解編你們現在財政部要我們金門縣政府一次的這個還這個2.4億我們現在沒有辦法沒有能力啊"},{"start":172.173,"end":182.669,"text":"本來是應該中央政府的事情對吧我們先去幫忙承擔了然後現在因為你們中央政府又要解編這個基金嘛現在叫我們一次還怎麼辦勒"},{"start":187.205,"end":191.851,"text":"當時金門向地方建設基金來貸款的時候已經簽了最長是5年的貸款期那也陸陸續續也都在還所以最後現在到1月9號還差2.4億"},{"start":202.583,"end":214.065,"text":"所以這個部分呢,建設基金雖然109年裁撤但是呢,他還是陸續在該還的還是要還但是不是跟建設,並不因為建設基金裁撤所以你才要還這2.4而是原來就是因為貸款的合約是5年這樣的一個情況因為這個涉及到經濟部嘛那經部要慢慢的給我們錢讓我們來還你們嘛本來是這個樣子嘛"},{"start":228.388,"end":250.152,"text":"當然這不是只有你們這個部的事情但是你看在財政委員會我也常跟這個主計總處這邊講你看我跟主席這邊那個講過多少次我說我們就現在財政不好沒有錢嘛不像說以前那麼有錢沒有錢嘛像他說把我們的這個財政這個花分降一點不要從三級降到五級讓我們可以少支出一點嘛他說你們很有錢我們現在欠你們2.4億還不出來怎麼辦勒"},{"start":254.494,"end":269.628,"text":"沒辦法還啊沒辦法還不會啦金門縣政府的財政狀況應該還不錯你們不能一直說因為我們很有錢所以什麼東西就這樣本來這個是中央要做的事情水這個東西在水上給你們以前電也是我們自己負責啦我們以前是金門電廠"},{"start":270.789,"end":290.865,"text":"水現在還是我們金門自來水廠那什麼那個金大如果沒有錢我們要幫忙出錢金門醫院沒有錢我們要幫忙出錢所以金門都要附帶一個中央政府應該做的事情你是要支持我們金門獨立嗎我想不是啦我想當時這個都有一個計畫在執行然後經濟部他也有編列預算做前額的補助"},{"start":291.425,"end":309.411,"text":" ️﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":309.411,"end":326.698,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":326.938,"end":349.948,"text":"我們這個因為飲水齁讓中央政府省了好多錢跟大陸進水就省得從台灣這麼遠一頓500塊的運費要運過來省了很多錢而且讓金門地下水的使用比例降低而且又度過了三次的這個旱災啦這個事實上影響很大所以是不是這個問題你幫我們看這個二點是反正你說金門先生財政不錯的所以是一個好的這個客戶"},{"start":351.008,"end":351.028,"text":"繼續再見!"},{"start":372.642,"end":400.33,"text":"大學喔醫院喔金門現在都貼錢欸連金門大橋我們都自己貼錢下去啊什麼都貼錢啊我們是為了金門的建設發展啊不得已自己都知道我們熱井酷待很辛苦還喝高粱酒好謝謝來下一個進水對不對這個我們不是從大陸進口水嗎那進口水這個進來呢這個水本來就是應該中央政府要做現在我們地方政府自己來做那這個我們還要繳納這個營業稅"},{"start":403.135,"end":428.448,"text":"這個不合理吧?你看喔雖然這個錢不是很多啦幾百萬啦那你看我們這個相關的這個加值型及非加值型營業稅法第九條、第九條之一有講進口以下貨物免徵營業稅你看其中有一個因應經濟特殊狀況調節物資進口這像那時候小麥、大麥、玉米、黃豆這一種都是民生必需嘛那水是不是民生必需?"},{"start":430.073,"end":450.583,"text":"跟委員報告因為營業稅是屬於一般的消費稅在銷售的時候都會要課正營業稅那水要賣給誰啊?水就是金門縣政府給百姓為了要一定的價錢跟台灣的百姓一樣的水價嘛所以金門縣政府自己進了水進來還要貼錢還要自己做什麼水廠"},{"start":451.784,"end":466.766,"text":"對嗎?全部都自己貼那這個雖然這個稅是幾百萬而已但這個也是可以在裡頭修法裡頭像你看那個如果大麥小麥玉米黃豆這些都可以激動的調整金門這個水應該也可以激動調整啦因為這是民生必需品啦"},{"start":467.407,"end":494.327,"text":"不是拿來賣的啊,不是拿來賺錢的啊是,那但是對於有關這個虧損的部分那經濟部也編列了預算來做撥補我知道,那編列算就編的比較慢啊我們先墊錢,剛剛我前面前提跟你說過了嗎所以我們中間要墊很多錢啊然後你們又要叫我們趕快一次還我們又現在還不起啊所以我們可以各個地方可以省的要讓我們省嘛而且這個是符合照顧民生經濟啊你可以考慮一下這個是民生經濟啊,這個不是說,而且水嘛"},{"start":495.268,"end":496.83,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":511.008,"end":527.193,"text":"因為水是必需品,長期都要用的。對,但是你可以再,我們可以多一項啊。多一項啊。水是民生必需品,而且這本來就是中央應該負責的。事實上如果沒有也是,那個到時候經濟部他要再貼錢進來嘛。"},{"start":528.553,"end":544.186,"text":"那你何必這樣子?你們兩個不會可能要協調一下?站在照顧這個離島的這個立場。事實上真的這是你們的事情,不是我們的事情。我想離島部分的離島建設條例裡面就有相關的一些照顧的條款。那我們寫在離島建設條例裡頭好不好?我們從離島建設條例來寫。我也可以寫在裡頭嗎?"},{"start":549.673,"end":574.34,"text":"沒有啊,離島建設條例已經有相關的就金門水廠案這個本島的這個部分的話都可以有相關的補貼啊好,那你就用那個當法源讓我們這個營業稅免徵嘛你就把那個當法源就可以了那可以啊,如果你這樣同意我不修法我也可以同意啦不一樣的是不多錢啦,一年大概幾百萬啦但是也是對地區影響很大不一樣的,是是是我的意思是說原則啦哪一、修在哪裡我都可以但是原則就是說"},{"start":575.861,"end":597.395,"text":"這個民生基本民生的需要水啊、電啊這些都是中央政府應該負擔的不然就是我到時候不然諮詢院長請他把水廠收過去當台灣水廠不要做基本以前我們店也是這樣全部都我們自己出嘛在台灣的話水跟電也是要課營業稅的啦在水跟電都要課在台灣我知道但是我的意思是說這個東西"},{"start":599.136,"end":626.503,"text":"因為臺灣科反正是經濟部在出的嘛,都是你們臺灣自來水公司啊,那個都臺灣的都是政府的,我們都地方政府自己出啊。我想因為大部分在場的人都不了解,所有東西金門的什麼水啊這些東西醫療啊教育什麼都要自己出錢。不能說自己很有錢要求條項什麼都也不願意。那個部長請跟我們多多支持好嗎?委員我想這個部分還是要通盤的考量全額。對你通盤的考量一下在如果院會裡頭,幫我們多說一下吧。"},{"start":628.665,"end":629.186,"text":"多多考量!"}]}},{"id":"151569","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151569","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c33675f224c57d8283bccff82116bdf94ca8dcb4691eb09bf4e21ff4dcd6a2cddace5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"12:04:15 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12:11:17","影片長度":"00:07:02","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":422,"end_time":"2024-04-22T12:11:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T12:04:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1150,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（12時4分）先謝謝召委跟各位委員，我們是不是先請薛部長？"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：何委員好。"],["何委員欣純：部長好，其實我聽了一個早上，很多委員都有提到噪音是公害，而且是大家很痛惡的。其實在各縣市我知道都有相關的專案執法、執法的專案，譬如說桃園有桃園的；在臺中，我記得有一個靜城專案，但是大家都認為專案式的執法效率不彰，為什麼？因為專案式的執法都是在特定的時間、特定的區域，所以才有部長今天來報告，談到我們要從源頭來管理，到後來我們的改管要登錄，如果沒有登錄要予以開罰，我們要做全套的一個管制，對不對？部長。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["何委員欣純：你認為如果我們有全套的管制之後，地方的靜城專案，或者是桃園的靜桃專案，你覺得像這樣專案的執行效果會不會加倍？"],["薛部長富盛：當然會產生一些效果，但是還沒有達到……"],["何委員欣純：我要聽的是「但是」。"],["薛部長富盛：但是還沒有辦法達到理想的狀況，原因是用人工跟跨部會的聯合稽查，這種畢竟是有時間性，剛剛何委員有提到。"],["何委員欣純：是嘛！部長，我現在就要講，如果要系統性來澈底解決噪音這樣子的問題，我們有沒有系統性的策略？而不是只有中央、地方的聯合稽查，在特定的區域、特定的地點、特定的時間。"],["薛部長富盛：所以我們接下來就是科技的執法。"],["何委員欣純：可是科技的執法也是在固定點啊！你的移動點要如何移動，當然一定是有你們的一個策略，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["何委員欣純：所以除了增加設備之外，我們的策略上，跨部會是怎麼樣來執行？"],["薛部長富盛：我想基本上我們環境部的業務也還滿清楚的，就是對噪音的管制……"],["何委員欣純：我知道啊！你們環境部就對噪音的管制，我現在講的是跨部會，今天這個專案報告裡面，你們來了環境部、警政署、經濟部，這就是跨部會嘛！你現在要系統性地納管也是跨部會嘛！所以我才問未來怎麼執行到位？"],["薛部長富盛：未來的執行面當然就是環境部……"],["何委員欣純：我們現在擔心的是執行面，跨部會都協調不好的話，就更不要課責地方政府來跟中央配合。"],["薛部長富盛：執行面的話，當然就是我們環境部針對噪音，我想交通部或者警政署的這一塊，用他們的……"],["何委員欣純：可是現在聽起來你們是各自為政啊！"],["薛部長富盛：對，所以這一塊我希望能夠有一個平台……"],["何委員欣純：你說要跟未來的彭部長無縫接軌，這整套的管理系統要怎麼樣無縫接軌？其他部會換了新的首長，要怎麼樣無縫接軌？我覺得這才是民眾所關心的。"],["薛部長富盛：跟何委員報告，事實上環境部也有成功的案例，譬如說我們在抓不管是空污、水污跟土壤污染，我們有一個檢警環的稽核制度。"],["何委員欣純：我知道啊！就是我剛剛說的稽核專案，但稽核就是特定的時間、特定的地點、特定的區域，我只是希望，既然我們有心要做管理，就應該把它想清楚，如何能夠不要只是專案式的一個稽查方式，而是有系統性去防範這些噪音公害的產生。"],["薛部長富盛：好，認同。"],["何委員欣純：我只問你一個，譬如說，剛剛有其他委員講到，現在我們要源頭管制，改管要登錄，你給我的報告是說，從1月1號執行到4月15號，來申請登錄的總共有1萬4,971件，部長，你承不承認會有黑數？"],["薛部長富盛：這個黑數當然是難免的。"],["何委員欣純：一定有黑數，那黑數你怎麼去稽查得知呢？只能靠事後的、剛剛講的專案稽查嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我想就是從源頭，就是看看這些機車行，或者販售……"],["何委員欣純：所以我就點出這一點，你的源頭管理中，你是被動地等人家來登錄，沒有來登錄的黑數，你要做什麼樣的管理，這個才是問題嘛！合法的我們都可以查得到；不合法的，因為沒有登記，你就查不到，不是嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["何委員欣純：我們現在最需要去查的是什麼？那些非法的黑數，那才是造成公害最主要之原因，部長，該怎麼辦？"],["薛部長富盛：所以我們未來就加強這一塊，特別是不要再用自願的。"],["何委員欣純：你要怎麼加強啊？我現在要聽的是你打算怎麼加強。"],["薛部長富盛：我們請張司長來回答好了。"],["何委員欣純：好，誰可以來回答？"],["張司長順欽：我想最主要還是後端的稽查，包括聲音照相還有聯合稽查，這個都要一起搭配上來。"],["何委員欣純：從源頭管理到後端的稽查，這中間沒有其他積極的行政作為嗎？"],["張司長順欽：另外就是改裝的場所，我們要去看看……"],["何委員欣純：對，所以我說要跨部會，第一個就是改裝場所；再來，改裝場所如果沒登記呢？現在也看到有很多個人工作室在改裝，這個查得到嗎？這個查不到啊！"],["薛部長富盛：挑戰度很高。"],["何委員欣純：這就是所謂的黑數，對不對？是不是？這又該哪一個部會管？經濟部還是交通部？"],["薛部長富盛：是不是經濟部？也就是說到業者、到機車行去改裝……"],["何委員欣純：我現在講的不只是機車行……"],["薛部長富盛：個人？"],["何委員欣純：現在已經有新興的行業叫個人工作室。個人工作室誰管？我現在是點出實務面的問題，我們在基層都知道有產業鏈，你們公務單位、行政單位如果不瞭解實務面，怎麼把這套納管制度做好、做到位，以澈底防制噪音？"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝何委員提供很好的意見，這個我們的確比較不瞭解。"],["何委員欣純：請再認真、深入地去跟跨部會的相關部門爬梳現在實務面上到底有哪些問題必須要去面對與解決，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝何委員。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員的發言。","現在處理臨時提案，總共有6案，請一併宣讀。","臨時提案","一、","案由：","有鑑於我國在鉅量紙容器生產量因未如實申報，導致逃漏處理費，讓中央政府預算作業在回收基金少徵數達數億元之多情形。爰環境部自111年8月起，辦理對民間所有新生產的紙容器皆須印上「溯源QR Code」措施，藉此盼讓民眾及環保稽查業務人員透過掃描QR Code後連結到資訊揭露頁面，進而得知手上的紙杯、紙餐盒是否來自合法業者，並進一步對逃漏的黑數有效防堵，更維護回收基金的運作機制及環境保護目標。然而，查在當前利用網路連線至各類紙容器所印製之官方溯源QR Code，卻皆僅見單薄之「本紙餐具來自向環境部資源循環數登記列管的業者」內容，而有欠相關詳實之產製資訊，更衍生不肖非法產製業者可憑盜製QR碼再偽裝成合法容器之政策疑慮，爰此特決議要求環境部最速啟動措施改善作業，並於一個月內向本委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　蘇清泉　　廖偉翔","二、","地方政府積極查處噪音管制，全面管制噪音車，維護環境安寧，保障民眾居住生活品質，實應嘉許。","據日前媒體報導，地方政府援引「噪音管制法第19條第1項各級主管機關得指派人員並提示有關執行職務上證明文件或顯示足資辨別之標誌，進入發生噪音或有事實足認有發生噪音之虞之公、私場所檢查或鑑定噪音狀況。」，用於機車行中正進行維修之車輛，認定其改裝或有發生噪音之虞，拍照存證並要求車主前去驗車，引發軒然大波。","不論噪音場所與機動車輛噪音檢驗相關規範有所不同，對正在進行維修之車輛拍照存證並要求驗車，恐有過度解讀法令、擴張行政權之嫌，地方政府事後將事件解釋為，查察合法營業登記。","然，一般民眾難以全面瞭解管制噪音法規，地方政府若以稽查違規車輛之名，行侵害民眾權益之實，如此反而使政府失去威信，遭受民眾質疑，導致政策無法完整被推行。","爰要求，環境部就地方政府噪音管制作為進行暸解與檢討相關作為，並於一個月內將檢討報告送本院社會福利與衛生環境委員會。","提案人：黃秀芳　　王正旭　　林月琴","三、","為從源頭解決機車改裝排氣管產生噪音問題，行政院邀集環境部與交通部召開協調會，要求共同推動改裝排氣管認證制度，由環境部訂定「機動車輛替換用消音系統認證管理規範」，交通部修訂「道路交通安全規則」要求使用中車輛如有變更排氣管之情形，應經環境部噪音檢測合格後至監理單位辦理變更登記，以達到源頭管理目的。","經查，交通部對汽機車排氣管改裝的規定之附件15有4點規定，其中第1點至第3點對於相關改裝，須經交通部委託之車輛專業技術研究機構審驗合格，須原車輛製造廠、車輛代理商或車輛修理業出具改裝證明，或須經合法業者辦理等嚴格的規定。","然，車輛製造廠、車輛代理商或車輛修理業均為經濟部所轄，為將噪音源頭規範應給予妥適管理，爰此提案，要求環境部、交通部、警政署，經濟部於一個月內，就推動改裝排氣管認證制度，邀請相關機關及地方政府，共同研討並宣達相關措施，以達廣徵民眾及企業反映之效，並供作政策調適。","提案人：黃秀芳　　王正旭　　林月琴　　","四、","以機車代步係我國長年實行之生活習慣及交通文化，其中燃油機車之溫室氣體排放量及空氣污染皆高於電動機車。為有效減少溫室氣體排放、提高國人選購電動機車誘因，行政院環保署於民國109年開始實施機車汰舊換新補助，然而燃油機車數量仍逐年上升，112年甚至已高達13,841,417部。前開數據顯示汰舊換新補助政策有其缺失，惟環境部除加碼補貼之外，至今並無修正原辦法或提出策進方針。","為督促行政部門實際落實減少溫室氣體排放之政策、接軌國際目標，爰要求環境部檢討機車汰舊換新補助之缺失，具體說明政策修正方向及改善方案，並於一個月內提出書面報告予社會福利及衛生環境委員會。","提案人：王育敏　　","連署人：盧縣一　　蘇清泉　　","五、","環境噪音除了會損害聽力，還會導致憂鬱焦慮、睡眠障礙、注意力下降，提高內分泌系統及心血管疾病的發生率，甚至因聽覺刺激降低而增加罹患失智症的風險，爰要求環境部於半年內，針對環境噪音對人們生活之影響，與衛福部進行相關研究，制定相關場域或空間噪音防制準則與規範，並將書面報告送社福及衛環委員會。","提案人：蘇清泉　　王育敏　　盧縣一","六、","案由：有鑒於行政院經濟部依電價費率審議會決議電價4月起平均調漲11%，對民眾健康息息相關的救命的醫院，24小時搶救人命的機構，醫療儀器都需不斷電狀態，加上醫院感染控制及室內溫度維持等措施，是用電量高的場所。根據中華民國區域醫院協會實際調查，以區域醫院等級醫院每月平均用電度數在60萬度到130萬度，平均每月用電100萬度，漲價後除了原本電費負擔外，額外年度增加電費500萬，現階段總額環境下，醫院毛利僅有1-2%，試問哪一家醫院可以負擔得起？醫院在生死存亡之際，當電價海嘯襲來，將瀕臨熄燈滅頂、被迫縮減醫療提供。區域醫院及醫學中心更是醫療中重度責任中心，必須負擔急、重、難的照護責任，衛生福利部及經濟部提供地區醫院補貼，更應考量區域醫院及醫學中心肩負社會責任的特殊性，爰要求全國醫院比照現行地區醫院給予電價補貼。","提案人：蘇清泉　　陳菁徽　　盧縣一"],["主席：在這邊作以下宣告，等一下如果有文字修正，請將文字修正版送主席台確定。","我們先從第6案開始，行政單位有沒有意見？"],["薛部長富盛：電費會不會是經濟部的業務？"],["王委員正旭：主席，針對第6案最後一句，希望能將「要求」改為「研議」，因為目前衛福部沒有派員在現場，如果能夠做這樣的修正的話，對他們來講也能有更好的因應，以上。"],["主席：經濟部？可以嗎？"],["在場人員：經濟部說明，就地區醫院部分，主要是針對地區醫院非核心地區，當時在跟衛福部商量時是針對非核心地區且經營比較困難的，如果要擴及全國，可能要由經濟部研議。但即使研議電價補貼，還是由衛福部來處理會比較妥適，因為後續要編入主管機關的預算裡。"],["主席：王委員，這裡就改為「研議」好不好？"],["在場人員：因為後續是由目的事業主管機關編入預算處理。"],["王委員正旭：就是把「要求」改為「研議」，謝謝。"],["在場人員：因為這是長久的規劃，交給主管機關研議比較妥適。"],["主席：這只是研議，所以先請經濟部研議。王委員，禮拜三時再針對這案……因為衛福部沒有來。"],["王委員正旭：對，衛福部沒有在現場，如果有需要的話，禮拜三可以再提出來。"],["主席：我們就先照委員所提修正文字通過，好不好？第6案就照文字修正通過。","回到第1案，行政單位有沒有意見？"],["許副署長智倫：謝謝主席，循環署報告，這一案要防堵紙餐具QR Code的改善措施，我們會馬上來進行。由於家數與資料眾多，且涉及系統修改等等，所以最後一行是不是容許我們建議，將「一個月內向本委員會提交書面報告」修正成「兩個月」？"],["陳委員菁徽：可以。"],["許副署長智倫：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，照文字修正通過。","第2案。"],["張司長順欽：報告，第2案沒有問題，遵辦、照辦。"],["主席：好。第3案。"],["張司長順欽：沒有問題。"],["主席：沒有問題？好。第4案。"],["張司長順欽：第4案沒有問題。"],["主席：也沒有問題？好，照案通過。","第5案。"],["張司長順欽：第5案倒數第二行建議「與衛福部……」後面改成「共同蒐集國際噪音與健康研究發展及管制趨勢、最新動態，並將書面報告送社福及衛環委員會」，就是把「進行研究……」後面的文字刪掉。"],["主席：提案委員有沒有意見？可以？照文字修正通過，臨時提案全部處理完畢。","接下來請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：事實上，我質詢過衛福部很多次了，應該在行政院要成立少子女化辦公室，而不是在衛福部成立，應該是在行政院要成立少子女化辦公室，因為少子女化非常非常地嚴重，是不是國安問題？秘書長。"],["李秘書長孟諺：是，我想確實已經是整個國家最重要、目前要去面對的問題。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們看臺灣出生的人數，非常非常嚴重地溜滑梯，看這個人口數的話，95年是二十萬四千四百多，到去（112）年是十三萬五千多，真的是嚴重溜滑梯！所以這個既然是一個非常嚴重的國安問題，但是行政院卻沒有一個少子女化辦公室。","請問一下，你是副處長還是處長？"],["吳處長靜如：處長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：綜規處，是不是？"],["吳處長靜如：不是，是教文處的處長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你是教育部喔？"],["吳處長靜如：教文處。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：院的？"],["吳處長靜如：對，現在院裡面是由林政務委員邀集教育部跟衛福部等等11個部會來召開會議……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，我知道。我們看你們這邊寫的都是衛福部跟教育部的一些補助啦！教育部的報告也是，連設2歲的專班都設得很少啊！我也質詢過教育部2歲的專班。時間的關係，因為我們的委員要去搭高鐵了。廣設完善的托嬰中心，免費托嬰，這個是衛福部的，但是這個一定要有行政院的支持、協調，最主要是經費，對不對？一定要有經費，廣設完善的托嬰中心，免費托嬰。第二，增設2歲的專班，廣設完善的托幼機構，而且要免費的托幼。既然是國安的問題，就應該要非常非常地重視，所有經費的投入都應該。","我要請秘書長還有處長具體地提出建議。我也是公務員，我是30年公務員了，我常常會提出具體的建議。我舉一個例子，我當中央原民會副主委的時候，我提出什麼呢？租屋補助喔！我在原民會的時候提出租屋補助，經建會的副主委就是現在的政務委員張景森，當時看到中央原民會所提的租屋補助的計畫，他很訝異，租房子還要補助？我做詳細的說明之後，他接受了我的建議，所以租屋補助是從都會區的原住民開始的，實施3年之後，內政部認為這個政策不錯，不能只有原住民，應該全部不分族群都要有租屋補助，是這樣來的。所以公務人員很重要，要做詳細的分析、說明、建議。","剛才是舉了一個我過去的例子。我就舉不是我的例子，是大家的例子。民國57年中華民國政府開始實施9年國教，對不對？本來是6年的國教、義務教育，推行9年國教，民國57年喔！第一個，財政沒有現在那麼好，非常地拮据，那時候還是要反攻大陸的年代啊！對不對？國防為主、為優先啊！但是為了教育，當時的政府推行9年國教，不只是經費的問題，連教室都沒有，對不對？興建教室要花多少錢啊？免費讓這些國小畢業的全部都可以念國中，要花很多的錢。然後也沒有師資啊！也要找師資，在這樣一個艱困的年代，都可以去執行9年國教。","所以我要請處長好好地寫資料，提供給未來的秘書長、給未來的行政院長，也就是卓榮泰院長，來作為一個施政的重要政策。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢。","登記發言的委員除不在場之外，其餘均已發言完畢，質詢結束。委員王美惠所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未答復部分，請相關單位一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-13","speakers":["吳琪銘","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃建賓","丁學忠","高金素梅","張智倫","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","黃國昌","麥玉珍","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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glimp 1、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 glimp 2、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 glimp 3、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 glimp 4、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 glimp 4、處理113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 glimp 4、處理113年度中央政府總預算�"},{"start":114.168,"end":122.156,"text":"行政院竟然沒有一個少子女化辦公室。請問一下你是副處長還是處長?"},{"start":123.996,"end":130.881,"text":"教育部、教文部、教育部、教育部、教育部、教育部、教育部"},{"start":147.788,"end":172.99,"text":"教育部的報告也是連我們兩歲的射磚班都受的很少我也質詢過教育部兩歲的磚班很具體的時間的關係因為那個還有我們的我也要去搭高鐵了廣設完善的拖音中心"},{"start":174.249,"end":193.219,"text":"免費拖音這個是衛福部的但是這個一定要有行政院的支持協調這主要是經費對不對經費一定要有經費廣設完善的拖音中心免費拖音第二"},{"start":194.437,"end":219.615,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。breviation of Procedure of Procedure of Procedure of Procedure"},{"start":223.829,"end":233.194,"text":"提出建議提出建議提出建議提出建議提出建議提出建議提出建議提出建議提出建議提出建議提出建議提出建議提出建議提出建議"},{"start":252.025,"end":255.768,"text":"競建會副主委競建會副主委競建會副主委競建會副主委競建會副主委競建會副主委競建會副主委競建會副主委競建會副主委競建會"},{"start":281.282,"end":310.231,"text":"實施3年之後內政部認為這個政策不錯不能只有原住民應該全部不分族群都要有租屋補助是這樣來的所以公務人員很重要你要做詳細的分析說明建議好我就舉一個過去的例子剛才是舉了一個例子我過去我們就舉不是我"},{"start":311.428,"end":340.359,"text":"不是我的例子是大家的例子民國57年中華民國政府開始實施9年國教對不對本來是6年的國教義務教育推行9年國教民國57年喔第一個財政沒有現在再那麼好非常的拮据那時候還是要反攻大陸的年代啊"},{"start":342.465,"end":363.143,"text":"國防為主為優先啊但是為了教育當時的政府推行9年國教不只是經費的問題啊連教室都沒有啊對不對要新建教室要花多少錢啊免費要讓這些國小畢業全部都可以念國中"},{"start":369.266,"end":396.741,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍"},{"start":399.119,"end":399.239,"text":"以上。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151567","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151567","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336f669d1812263fac197e999b50eca937cdcb4691eb09bf4e20962698531d05bfc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:02:39 - 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Kacaw"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計 8案；二、處理113年度中\n央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案；四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨\n產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案","agenda_id":"1133201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.2415937500000003,"end":2.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.34284375,"end":10.544093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.3597187500000003,"end":2.6634687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.016593750000002,"end":56.157218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.595968750000004,"end":57.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.21596875,"end":65.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.03784375000001,"end":64.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.11784375,"end":66.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.05846875,"end":69.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.08784375,"end":68.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.45471875,"end":73.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.38284375,"end":72.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.63971875,"end":80.44034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.79971875000001,"end":76.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.72721875,"end":81.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.18284375,"end":81.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.80721875,"end":85.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.85346875,"end":83.61284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.21159375,"end":91.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.94909375,"end":99.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.28971875,"end":115.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.58346875000001,"end":109.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.62471875000001,"end":128.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.34409375,"end":130.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.52534375000002,"end":134.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.83721875,"end":133.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.86659375000002,"end":134.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.37284375000002,"end":134.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.52471875,"end":142.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.56159375000001,"end":148.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.09721875,"end":143.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.96971875,"end":153.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.58971875,"end":151.18034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.45846875,"end":153.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.94784375,"end":158.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.49971875,"end":159.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.10721875000002,"end":161.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.45721875,"end":170.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.33409375000002,"end":167.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.54034375,"end":169.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.70471875,"end":181.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.63971875000001,"end":184.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.92659375000002,"end":182.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.69846875000002,"end":194.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.78534375,"end":205.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.63596875000002,"end":209.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.16284375,"end":209.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.92221875,"end":228.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.61971875,"end":235.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.92659375000002,"end":236.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.70284375000003,"end":238.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.16659375,"end":243.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.37284375000002,"end":250.37159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.72596875000002,"end":250.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.95784375000002,"end":260.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.73346875000004,"end":266.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.41159375,"end":264.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.38159375000004,"end":274.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.44909375000003,"end":267.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.14471875000004,"end":281.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.94909375000003,"end":281.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.75909375000003,"end":284.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.42534375,"end":288.93096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.94784375,"end":289.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.85909375,"end":297.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.83284375,"end":322.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.49159375,"end":319.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.83284375,"end":335.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.84971875,"end":323.45721875000004},{"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民務長您剛有講到說會找主席總處跟內政部這邊來開會本席也特別拜託所以什麼時間你會來召集"},{"start":343.014,"end":345.516,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":370.933,"end":399.703,"text":"秘書長這邊兩個禮拜內召集相關部會並且告訴地方民眾告訴新北市政府到底我們內政部的第二期1054到第二期的計畫補助什麼時候可以達成這樣可以嗎我想這條路確實是可以紓解包括五股交流道林口交流道的這個壓力那讓他可以跟62銜接我想這個他有他的非常重要的價值我們會來支持"},{"start":400.604,"end":404.712,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":411.907,"end":429.5,"text":"交通委員會在對面所以未來本市也一定會督促也一定會要求我知道您是水利專家交通或者是觀光相對來講可能沒有那麼熟識但是您願意用開放的態度來聽大家對你有期待那我們希望就事論事專業理性的來討論謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151566","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151566","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336f5fe527e81205c567dee175bc8e0be1adcb4691eb09bf4e2f537da7f4e493df25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:55:34 - 12:08:10","影片長度":"00:12:36","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-10"},"duration":756,"end_time":"2024-04-22T12:08:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T11:55:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":735,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時55分）我請莊部長還有黃主委。"],["主席：請莊部長、黃主委。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長跟主委，其實我這次也是第一次到立法院來，但是我看到今天財委會的兩個案子，在立法院應該都討論了不知道多少年了，對吧？娛樂稅，前政府、現任的政府還有上一屆的立委全部都提過要廢除，台灣民眾黨在2022年也提案要廢除，顯然因為跨屆不連續所以沒有繼續審查，而保險業務員剛剛主委也說很久了，今天的案子，你們兩位認為它多久了？部長，娛樂稅討論多久了？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，娛樂稅確實有討論了一段時間，但是我們去年邀集地方政府開會，大概有幾個方向……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以地方政府又不同意，是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，他們是反對廢止的，這是第一個；第二個，娛樂稅的部分，隨著社會經濟發展而調整，還有娛樂項目的多元化，項目是可以做一些調整的，就是要課娛樂稅的項目；第三個，稅率部分的上限也可以考慮調整；另外，可以賦予……"],["黃委員珊珊：討論了這麼久，答案就是地方政府不同意，所以永遠不會有進步，對吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：但是也有幾個大概的方向，賦予地方政府可以停徵的權限，就以上部分進行說明。"],["黃委員珊珊：我在總質詢的時候就跟院長問過了，你也在現場，我問過到底財政部檢討了多久，從蔡英文政府在2019年提過廢除印花稅，到娛樂稅，到剛剛講的可能還有貨物稅，其實財政部一直都在檢討，不是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們要尋求大家的共識。"],["黃委員珊珊：好。重點是娛樂稅在現在這樣的狀況下，兩黨甚至三黨大概都朝向廢除的立場，所以我要問的是，雖然廢除，它的總金額一年大概是18、19億，占中央政府實徵的淨額比例，112年大概只占0.05%，其實算是非常小的錢，但是對於地方政府的確是筆大錢，尤其是鄉鎮市政府。所以我在意的是，不管稅怎麼廢，我希望知道的是有沒有替代財源，部長，你同意吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然您提的也是，第一個替代財源；第二個，這是地方稅，所以我們還是要尊重地方政府。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我今天知道您既然可能留任，所以我想把這個責任交給您，要廢除相關稅額，我希望能夠幫地方政府多爭取替代稅源，尤其是替代財源，讓他們不至於因為稅制改革而受到影響，這個是地方政府需要的。","另外，在財劃法的部分，本席代表台灣民眾黨提出財劃法的修正草案，我們也希望不要影響到地方政府的財政自主，但同時能夠讓它分配比較公平，這兩個事情應該拉在一起看，包括今天的娛樂稅法，部長，這是我們很懇切的要求，我們不希望下一屆立法院再拿同樣的案子出來再討論一次。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，瞭解。"],["黃委員珊珊：這個案子已經很久了。同樣地，如同剛剛講的，娛樂稅廢止之後的整個影響，其實你說大也很大，少也很少，但畢竟已經21世紀了，已經2024年了，娛樂稅在2007年修正過，到現在也已經十幾年沒修了，而且藝文表演、球賽都還在收這種很奇怪的稅，我覺得我們應該要重新檢討，不是單單說地方政府可以自主就可以了，如果中華民國要朝向一個稅制進步的地方，我們應該把這些事項做相關的檢討，而不是單純說這是地方的稅源，我們沒辦法處理，另外去找到錢，可能是財政部另外的一個責任，部長，這是您的責任，尤其是如果您留任的話，從總質詢到現在，我們都希望看到財政部對於稅制改革有一些積極的立場，包括印花稅、包括貨物稅。所以部長，不管這個案子立法院是否通過，我希望財政部都能夠在一個月之內，針對娛樂稅如果被廢除，它的替代財源還有相關稅制改革，我希望你們有一些態度跟立場，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，我想委員您的期許我很瞭解。"],["黃委員珊珊：好。主委，我們今天的題目是保險業務員，剛剛很多委員都已經提過了，我想問一下，這個案子你也說已經很久了，我們為什麼要在同樣一個地方討論同樣的題目繼續這麼久？"],["黃主任委員天牧：立意上，保險法是涵蓋契約法跟業務，我們當初有保險業務員管理規則，是針對他的招攬行為來做管理，但是這個入法的議題……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，但是對於他們相關的權利跟義務，請勞動部跟你們一起會同溝通，這樣有什麼困難嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實大法官釋字第740號對這個契約的性質已經做了一個定性……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以它是契約嘛。"],["黃主任委員天牧：這種私法的契約有一個彈性，主管機關怎麼去介入，我覺得這裡面有技術上很多問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：時間暫停，我們請勞動部。"],["主席：好，請勞動部。"],["黃副司長琦雅：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：勞動部，我們所有的勞工都應該是勞動部所保護的對象，不是嗎？"],["黃副司長琦雅：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我們各行各業都有不同的業別、有不同的工作型態、有不同的私法契約，各種狀況都有，但是最基本的保障跟基本的勞動條件應該是勞動部所主管。保險業務員目前為止有一部分可能適用勞基法，有一部分可能簽了合約，也有混同合約，有各種不同類型的合約，勞動部真的不用管嗎？"],["黃副司長琦雅：跟委員報告，就如同剛剛委員所述，我們現在各行各業不同的產業，可能依它的產業會有一些特殊或管制的必要。"],["黃委員珊珊：是的。"],["黃副司長琦雅：有部分的工作者的確會有別於勞動基準，我們勞動部主管的是各行各業，所訂定的是勞動基準法。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以今天這個法條的修正只有一個目標，就是希望金管會去找勞動部討論討論、修正修正，我們沒有要金管會馬上改變你們所有的管轄內容，我們只是在法條上面希望你們跟勞動部會同討論、辦理修正，內容部分，這個修法並沒有明確的要求，但是金管會連跟勞動部討論都不願意啊？主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，這個可能不是事實，我們過去跟黃副司長，有關工人的工會跟公司的公會都有在討論。"],["黃委員珊珊：主委，那我就唸給你聽，這個修正條文很簡單，第一百七十七條：「保險業務員之資格取得、登錄、撤銷或廢止登錄、工作條件、教育訓練、懲處、申訴管道及其他攸關勞動權益事項之規則，由主管機關會同勞動部定之。」如此而已，這個法授權希望勞動部門能夠跟金管會協助、協調有關保險業務員的相關權利跟義務，這個並沒有去僭越剛剛所提到的大法官解釋，也沒有僭越你們所謂的契約自由的約定。我的意思是，這只是希望讓勞動單位能夠瞭解這個行業、能夠提供他們的意見，會同你們修正所謂的管理規則，這才是這個修法的主要意旨，這個修法我不覺得有你剛剛講的那些困難，我只是認為連這麼簡單的修法都要完全抵抗，我也不太明白為什麼。所以主委，你們的態度是什麼？金管會的態度就是連跟勞動部討論都不願意，是嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們是有跟勞動部討論，但是要入法去定義，金管會對於勞動條件要去明定，我覺得這個是有基本價值的差異問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是如果立法院通過了，這個還是得做吧！我想今天就是一個很好的開始，任何法案的修正都需要大家共同的研商。至於保險業務員他本身簽了什麼樣的合約，合約的內容他應該都可以理解，只是我們要保障他的一些工作條件而已，我相信這個部分不是要去牴觸他們本身跟公司之間的契約自由，而是要讓他有一個基本工作條件的保障。我想今天這兩個法案都不應該再討論好幾屆，然後到新的國會又來重新討論，這一屆大概是唯一一次有機會通過，因為三黨不過半，加上這兩個法案我看三黨都提出相關的版本，通過的機率是很高的。所以兩位首長，雖然黃主委可能要離任，但是也都需要各單位正視這件事情，而不要讓它成為這一屆國會又沒辦法處理、下一屆國會要重來的法案。主委，雖然您要離職，我覺得這個事情也是重要的，好嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員珊珊：好。莊部長，同樣的問題，剛剛講的我這邊有一個簡單的案子，其實有很多自用住宅的用地，因為他是自用住宅，所以地價稅比較優惠，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是我們最近有一個陳情案很有趣，就是有人過世了，過世之後他的繼承人不能當然適用所謂的自用住宅稅率的地價稅，還要再重新申請一次，但要在每年9月22號以前向稅捐處申請，不然整年度就會變成非自用住宅，曾經有很多的案例，目前為止，這個案子很清楚，就是如果我已經住了7個月，我爸爸過世了，然後我9月之前忘記去申請，我這一整年都沒有優惠了。民眾其實很簡單，當他家人過世，沒有人會搞得清楚什麼時候要去申請自用住宅用地的優惠，所以在民國87年的時候其實曾經有過，臺北市陳水扁當市長的時候曾經重新核定過，可是後來整個不管是賦稅署也好，或財政部也好，就再也沒有同意民眾能夠優惠了。所以，我只希望這是一個簡單的事情，但是法令非常的死，也就是我如果超過時間去申請，我這一整年的優惠就沒有了。所以，部長，我只希望能夠提供一個簡政便民的方案，讓家裡有人過世，然後可能沒能來得及在9月22號以前去申請自用住宅的人，他有機會再獲得並按照他實際使用的月份來做比例的扣除。部長，這個可以做到吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，這個部分，我們再來瞭解一下這個案子的實際情形，看一下法規……"],["黃委員珊珊：他也許不只是個案，可能將來是一個通案，但是大部分的民眾因為忽略了，或還在傷心痛苦的時候沒有去申請，而造成喪失一整年所謂自用住宅優惠的地價稅。我想這個部分，署長，我們可以在會後再把個案交給你，但是我覺得要訂出一個未來的方案。"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，因為目前在辦繼承的時候，一般地方稅捐機關會提醒繼承人要去變更自用住宅，就是補辦自用住宅的登記……"],["黃委員珊珊：我覺得要給人家補正的機會啦，好不好？提醒是一回事，補正的機會很重要。"],["宋署長秀玲：這個我們再來研究，因為主要現在地價稅是按年課徵的關係啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：因為個案也不多嘛，你就讓他有補救的機會，讓一整年他可以按比例來優惠，好嗎？"],["宋署長秀玲：好，我們來瞭解一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：好，我們來研議。"],["黃委員珊珊：請財政部給我一個報告，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位發言請陳玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 案；\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案","agenda_id":"1133201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.06846875,"end":4.992218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.34659375,"end":5.9372187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6.3590937499999995,"end":7.658468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.180968750000002,"end":13.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.36221875,"end":25.664093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.969718750000002,"end":14.273468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.27159375,"end":27.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.53721875,"end":39.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.85596875,"end":42.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.02846875,"end":43.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.27721875,"end":47.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.618468750000005,"end":48.040343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.187843750000006,"end":50.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.74034375,"end":76.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.84034375,"end":61.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.81284375,"end":73.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.99784375,"end":81.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.80721875,"end":88.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.41409375,"end":95.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.24034375000001,"end":91.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.60659375,"end":106.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.40659375000001,"end":110.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.76471875,"end":122.37471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.94846875,"end":123.69096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.28159375000001,"end":131.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.95971875,"end":132.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.07784375,"end":148.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.83471875,"end":154.15034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.71159375000002,"end":158.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.26346875000002,"end":190.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.76909375000002,"end":200.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.80534375000002,"end":204.40409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.72471875000002,"end":206.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.30659375000002,"end":209.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.95596875,"end":210.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.10784375,"end":210.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.33971875,"end":218.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.43971875000003,"end":221.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.93721875000003,"end":222.51096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.93284375000002,"end":224.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.63721875000002,"end":225.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.00409375,"end":230.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.89784375000002,"end":239.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.60534375,"end":248.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.98784375000002,"end":260.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.78346875,"end":261.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.77471875000003,"end":263.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.04034375000003,"end":266.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.33534375,"end":268.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.49534375,"end":278.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.16034375000004,"end":281.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.97846875,"end":293.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.01034375,"end":298.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":298.70159375000003,"end":298.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.71846875,"end":298.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.51159375000003,"end":299.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":299.52846875,"end":308.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.54409375,"end":308.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.33721875000003,"end":308.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.94471875,"end":317.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":317.97284375000004,"end":332.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.75284375,"end":321.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.97221875,"end":322.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.61346875000004,"end":323.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":323.03534375000004,"end":323.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.40659375,"end":323.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.10596875000005,"end":330.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.22409375,"end":330.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.71346875,"end":330.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.29971875,"end":332.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":333.34596875,"end":334.66221875},{"speak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市政府所以我在意的是不管稅怎麼廢我希望知道的是有沒有替代財源部長你同意吧"},{"start":149.305,"end":177.738,"text":"當然您提的也是第一個替代財源第二個這是地方稅我們還是要尊重地方政府部長我今天知道您盡量可能會留任所以我想把這個責任也要交給您要廢除相關稅額我希望能夠幫地方政府多爭取替代稅源尤其是替代財源讓他們不至於因為稅制改革而受到影響這個是地方政府需要的另外就是在財化法的部分本席要表台灣民眾黨也提出了財化法的修正草案"},{"start":178.218,"end":200.269,"text":"我們也希望說不要影響到地方政府的財政自主但是同時能夠讓它分配比較公平這兩個事情應該拉在一起看包括今天的娛樂稅法部長這是我們很懇切的要求我們不希望在下一屆立法院再拿同樣的案子再出來討論一次這個案子已經很久了同樣的"},{"start":202.397,"end":229.559,"text":"剛剛講的這個娛樂稅廢止之後它的整個的影響其實廢你說大也很大少也很少但是畢竟已經21世紀了已經2024年了娛樂稅在2007年修正過到現在也十幾年沒修了而且藝人表演、球賽他還在收這種很奇怪的稅我覺得我們應該要重新檢討"},{"start":230.973,"end":255.672,"text":"不是只有單單說地方政府可以自主就可以了如果中華民國朝向一個稅制進步的地方我們應該把這些應該要做相關的檢討而不是單純說只是地方的稅源我們沒辦法處理另外去找到錢可能是財政部另外一個責任部長這是您的責任尤其是如果您留任的話這個我希望從總指訓到現在我們都希望看到"},{"start":256.312,"end":278.209,"text":"財政部對於稅制改革有一些積極的立場包括印花稅包括貨物稅所以部長我希望在這個案子不管立法院通不通過我希望財政部都能夠在一個月之內針對娛樂稅如果被廢除它的替代財源還有它的稅制改革我希望你們有一些態度跟立場可以嗎"},{"start":283.113,"end":295.907,"text":"主委,今天一樣的,我們今天的題目是保險業務,剛剛很多委員都已經提過了。我想問一下,為什麼這個案子你也說很久了,那我們為什麼要在同一個地方討論同樣的題目,繼續這麼久?"},{"start":299.591,"end":317.024,"text":"律意上保險法是涵蓋企業法跟業務我們當初有保險業務院管理規則是對他招攬行為去做管理但是這個入法的目的﹖但是對於他跟勞動部去會同他們的相關的權利跟義務請勞動部跟你們一起溝通這樣有什麼困難嗎?"},{"start":317.805,"end":330.162,"text":"其實大法官述字740號已經對這個契約的性質有做了一個定性了。這種司法的契約有一個彈性,主管機關怎麼去介入,我覺得這裡面有些技術上的問題。請勞動部"},{"start":343.964,"end":347.228,"text":"我們所有的勞工都應該是勞動部所保護的對象"},{"start":349.074,"end":376.428,"text":"所以我們的各行各業都有不同的業別有不同的工作型態有不同的司法的契約各種狀況都有但是勞動部最基本的保障跟基本的勞動條件應該是勞動部所主管如果保險業務員他在目前為止有一部分可能是用勞基法有一部分他可能簽了合約也有混同合約有各種不同類型的合約勞動部真的不用管嗎"},{"start":377.942,"end":393.99,"text":"根委員報告就如同剛剛委員所述我們現在各行各業不同的產業可能依著他的產業有一些特殊或者管制必要有部分的工作者的確他會這個有別於勞動基準我們勞動部主管的是各行各業"},{"start":394.65,"end":420.777,"text":"今天這個法條的修正只有一個目標就是希望金管會去找勞動部討論討論修正修正我們沒有要金管會馬上改變你們所有管轄的內容我們只是在法條上面希望你們跟勞動部來會同討論、辦理、修正內容這個修法並沒有明確的要求但是金管會連跟勞動部討論都不願意啊主委"},{"start":421.963,"end":446.339,"text":"報告委員 這個可能不是事實那個黃副司長我們過去很多跟兩個工人的工跟公司的工的工會都有在討論來來來主委那我就唸給你聽啦這個修正條文很簡單啦177條保險業務員的資格取得登錄、撤銷或廢止登錄工作條件、教育訓練、懲處、申訴管道及其他攸關勞動權益事項之規則由主管機關會同勞動部定之"},{"start":450.302,"end":471.144,"text":"如此而已這個法授權希望勞動部門能夠來跟金管會協助協調有關保險業務員他的相關的權利跟義務這個並沒有去僭越剛講的大法官的解釋也沒有僭越你們所謂的契約自由的規定我的意思是他只是希望能夠讓勞動單位"},{"start":472.685,"end":498.061,"text":"能夠了解這個行業能夠提供他們的意見來會同你們修正所謂的管理規則這才是這個修法的主要的意志這個修法我不覺得有你剛剛講的那些困難啦我只是認為說連這麼簡單的修法都要完全抵抗我也不太明白為什麼所以主委你們的態度是什麼?經管會的態度就是連跟勞動部討論都不願意是嗎?"},{"start":500.621,"end":515.804,"text":"我們是有跟勞動部討論但是要入法去訂金管會的勞動條件要去明訂我覺得這個是有基本價值的差異的問題但是如果立法院通過了這個還是得做吧我想今天就是一個很好的開始"},{"start":516.705,"end":542.233,"text":"任何法案的修正都需要大家共同的研商至於保險業務員他本身簽了什麼樣的合約合約的內容他應該都可以理解只是我們要保障一些他的工作條件而已我相信這個部分不是要去抵觸他們本身跟公司之間的企業自由而是要讓他有一個基本的工作條件的保障我想今天這兩個法案都不應該在"},{"start":544.453,"end":571.602,"text":"討論好幾屆然後到新的國會又來總理討論那這一屆大概是唯一一次有機會通過因為三黨不過半加上這個兩個法案我看三黨都提出相關的版本這個通過的機率是很高的所以兩位首長這樣黃主委已經可能要離任但是可能都需要各單位把這件事情正視而不要讓它成為這一屆國會又沒辦法處理下一屆國會要重來的法案"},{"start":572.881,"end":585.93,"text":"主委,雖然您要離職,我覺得這個事情也是重要的,好嗎?好,謝謝委員,謝謝。莊部長,同樣的問題,剛剛講的,我這邊有一個簡單的案子,它其實很多自用住宅的"},{"start":588.251,"end":588.871,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署"},{"start":618.614,"end":636.172,"text":"這個案子很清楚就是如果我已經住了7個月我爸爸過世了然後我9月之前忘記去申請我就一整年都沒有優惠了所以我們希望說民眾其實很簡單當他家人過世沒有人會搞得清楚什麼時候要去申請自用住宅用地的優惠"},{"start":637.173,"end":658.849,"text":"所以之前在民國87年的時候其實曾經有過臺北市陳水扁當市長的時候曾經重新核定過可是後來在整個不管是負稅署也好或財政部也好就再也沒有同意民眾能夠優惠了所以我只希望這是一個簡單的事情但是法令非常的死"},{"start":659.77,"end":680.953,"text":"也就是我如果超過時間去申請我這一整年的優惠就沒有了所以部長我只希望能夠提供一個簡正便民的方案讓家裡有人過世然後他可能沒有來得及在9月22號以前去申請自用住宅的他有機會再獲得按照他的使用實際使用的年"},{"start":682.423,"end":701.201,"text":"月份來做比例的扣除。部長這個可以做到吧?這個部分我們再來瞭解一下這個案的實際情形看一下法規。它可能不是只有個案。它可能將來是一個同案。但是大部分的民眾因為忽略了或還在傷心痛苦的時候沒有去申請而造成了喪失一整年的"},{"start":702.122,"end":712.156,"text":"幼惠的所謂自用住宅的幼惠的地價稅我想這個部分署長我們可以在會後再把個案交給你但是我覺得要訂出一個未來的方案"},{"start":715.475,"end":741.062,"text":"包括委員因為目前在辦計程的時候一般地方稅計的機會會提醒計程人他要去變更那個自用住宅就補辦那個自用住宅的等級我覺得要給人家補正的機會啦好不好提醒是一回事補正的機會很重要因為主要是現在地價稅是按年課徵的關係啦所以因為個案也不多嘛你就讓他有補救的機會有機會每一整年他可以按比例來優惠好嗎好請財政部給我一個報告謝謝好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":748.737,"end":750.962,"text":"下一位歡迎陳玉珍陳委員"}]}},{"id":"151565","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151565","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336169598fa755878f1cff82116bdf94ca8dcb4691eb09bf4e2d77338c61540601a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:56:30 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12:04:03","影片長度":"00:07:33","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":453,"end_time":"2024-04-22T12:04:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T11:56:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1077,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時56分）謝謝主席，請環境部、交通部、經濟部、內政部一起來好了。"],["主席：請部長。"],["薛部長富盛：牛委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長午安。既然要談噪音管制，以制度性層面來講，我們乾脆就一次處理，所以請這麼多人來一起討論，因為跟大家其實都有關係。"],["薛部長富盛：好，大家交換意見。"],["牛委員煦庭：根據環境部的統計，民眾陳情的噪音車輛檢舉案件數量大概有多少件？"],["薛部長富盛：八萬七千多件。"],["牛委員煦庭：越來越多了嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：裁罰的數量大概有多少？"],["薛部長富盛：裁罰的比例……"],["牛委員煦庭：大概四分之一左右啦！"],["薛部長富盛：25%。"],["牛委員煦庭：大概兩成多啦！為什麼會發生這樣的事？"],["薛部長富盛：這裡面可能是人為的，而且很多噪音，譬如機車呼嘯而過……"],["牛委員煦庭：不好抓嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以我們今天要針對這個問題來做討論，然後本席有三個題目，第一個是源頭阻卻，源頭阻卻的問題跟經濟部有關，你們可以一起回答。"],["薛部長富盛：我們源頭管理。"],["牛委員煦庭：以現在來講，我們大概講說抓吵不抓改或怎麼樣，但是跟部長做一下討論，現在經濟部表示改管應該要為變更登記，然後要使用環境部認證的排氣管，對不對？它表示大家都支持，業者也支持，具體規劃是114年1月1號開始上路，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：好。"],["薛部長富盛：現在是一個緩衝期，今年是緩衝期。"],["牛委員煦庭：你現在有多少把握業者會百分之百配合這件事？還是表面上配合你，私底下還是賣不合格的管子？"],["薛部長富盛：不會……"],["牛委員煦庭：你們有沒有掌握這種狀況？"],["薛部長富盛：因為登記到目前為止，將近有1萬5,000位的機車車主已經來登記了，持續還在進行當中。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在有實務上的稽查狀況，就是逃脫也是有方法的，比如我被抓到違規就要回去驗車，驗車時我就把正常管裝回去，然後驗完車之後再裝回來，對不對？所以我們講的源頭管制，你如果只是形式上的源頭管制是沒有辦法處理這件事的，真正的源頭管制當然還是要從業者下手，我完全同意所謂的抓吵不抓改，這除了規範機車以外，業者的部分其實也是要這樣。換言之，如果現在業者通通很配合，就是會用有認證的排氣管的時候，政府機關還是要有一個稽查的機制，還是要針對業者去做稽查，不能因為有一個名義上的東西就不針對業者去做調整。過去桃園市政府在推動靜桃專案的時候是針對業者去稽查，當然業者一定會反彈，但是公權力該做的時候就要做，把話講清楚、規則定清楚。我現在就要問經濟部，請經濟部回答，你現在講業者都願意配合，未來你如果做稽查，你發現這家業者名義上講說都會提供合法的排氣管，可是你去稽查的時候，發現它根本沒有在做這件事，它掛羊頭賣狗肉，還是繼續做非法改管行為的時候，你有沒有處罰的方案？"],["謝副局長翰璋：跟委員報告，我們一般都會會同環境部一起去稽查，所以我們發現的時候會把相關資料請環境部馬上依照其法規酌予處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在的法規、現在的處罰機制是什麼？"],["薛部長富盛：是一個聯合稽查的動作，剛剛牛委員的問題是怎麼樣？"],["牛委員煦庭：我是說你現在只有聯合稽查機制，可是你抓到業者如果還是非法提供相關排氣管的時候，有沒有針對業者的處罰機制？"],["薛部長富盛：有，應該……"],["牛委員煦庭：沒有。"],["薛部長富盛：但是對業者應該是經濟部在負責吧？"],["牛委員煦庭：所以這就是我今天把你們一起叫上來的原因。"],["薛部長富盛：環境部只針對有沒有經環境部認可的排氣管，以及它排的噪音是不是超過標準，環境部……"],["牛委員煦庭：你看，這就是漏洞！所以你們要開會討論，要不然你的源頭管理永遠都沒有處理。"],["薛部長富盛：OK，瞭解。"],["牛委員煦庭：剛剛都在討論這一個月能不能雷厲風行，我是希望可以，因為這種事情其實不分藍綠、不分朝野，也不分誰做環境部長、誰做經濟部長，這是全民共識。"],["薛部長富盛：對！對！"],["牛委員煦庭：這應該把它澈底殲滅，所以趕快做研討，不要拖了，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：是，好。"],["牛委員煦庭：針對業者的課責，也要有課責機制才有辦法源頭阻卻，這是第一個問題。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝牛委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個問題就是執法的效率，我要談的是科技執法，其實剛剛很多委員都有問過，我們今天不花太多時間在這個地方，未來有沒有打算擴大相關的預算？因為剛剛大家都講一套一套行動式的太少了。"],["薛部長富盛：對啊！我覺得不夠，我覺得應該要有。"],["牛委員煦庭：請內政部警政署來講一下，使用科技執法之後，對於節省警察工作量能有沒有幫助？"],["李副署長西河：科技執法設備是由噪音的……"],["牛委員煦庭：對啊！噪音科技執法。"],["劉組長振安：那不是警察的設備，都是在環保……"],["薛部長富盛：那個是環境部……"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講的是在沒有科技執法設備的情況下，要怎麼抓噪音？是不是交通警察跟著去執法？叫做環警聯合稽查，對不對？"],["李副署長西河：對，第一個是在配合聯合稽查；第二個，我們在勤務當中，不管路檢、臨檢，發現有這樣的情況都會處理。"],["牛委員煦庭：如果多一些科技執法的設備，你是不是少一點警察出勤的機會？"],["李副署長西河：是！是！是！"],["牛委員煦庭：我就是要聽你這一句話，所以請環境部、內政部想辦法，也許警政可以提供一些預算支援，這也是可以的啊！因為這件事情有助於減少基層員警的壓力，所以不管你們要從哪裡找錢出來，就是要做嘛！就是去加大科技執法設備的預算編列，這是第二個問題。"],["薛部長富盛：好，OK。"],["牛委員煦庭：第三個就是交通部，你要靈活運用法規啊！最近大家吵得沸沸揚揚的記點制度，職業駕駛快崩潰了，對不對？這當然要做檢討、要做調整，該記點的沒記點，不記點的去記點，你當然被罵，交通部，噪音改管車輛，人人得而誅之！這沒有什麼好客氣的，現在這種有沒有記點？就是他被抓包超標、很吵，有沒有記點？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，這一個噪音管制超過標準的部分是按照噪音管制……"],["牛委員煦庭：是罰錢，對不對？"],["林司長福山：是按照它的法來做規定，如果是屬於消音器不全、有影響行車安全的話，在這個處罰條例裡面是有這個規定，但因為兩個適用的法源有不一樣……"],["牛委員煦庭：我跟你講，很多人在那邊研討說我們要沒入車輛，這當然是最有效的裁罰機制，可是你不能一下子標準就定那麼高然後都做不到，甚至一直都在研討中，這樣是有問題的，最務實而且可以思考的方式就是記點，你被人家抓包，晚上你喜歡出去飆車就記點，多記幾點是不是就可以扣牌了？比較快。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，如果是飆車的話，那個一定會記點，而且會吊扣駕照。"],["牛委員煦庭：我現在講的是噪音，飆車族的噪音，所以是不是一樣來做個研討？把它納入記點，且這個記點不會有民怨，反而大家拍拍手，覺得政府有魄力，這才是比較務實的地方。","所以本席做個小結論，就三個部分，第一個，針對源頭阻卻的部分，要對業者課予責任；第二，加強執法效率，增加科技執法量能；第三，靈活運用記點制度，澈底殲滅噪音的公害，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝牛委員的建議。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個不要等什麼換不換屆，就趕快做了，我希望可以趕快看到成果，可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝牛委員的建議。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝，各位辛苦了。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員。報告委員會，何欣純委員要求同意發言後再處理臨時提案。","我們先請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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牛煦好"},{"start":23.339,"end":44.377,"text":"市長午安,既然要談噪音管制、制度性的層面來講,我們乾脆就一次處理了,所以叫這麼多人來一起討論,因為跟大家其實都有關係。好,大家交換意見。這個根據環境部的統計,民眾陳情的噪音車輛檢舉案件數量大概多少件?八萬七千多件。越來越多了嘛,對不對?財閥的數量大概多少?"},{"start":45.874,"end":46.335,"text":"為什麼會發生這樣的事?"},{"start":57.103,"end":76.931,"text":"這裡面可能人為的這個對而且很多噪音齁譬如說你機車呼嘯而過不好抓嘛對不對所以我們今天要針對這個問題來做討論然後本期有三個題目齁第一個叫做源頭阻卻啦源頭阻卻的問題跟經濟部有關齁你們可以一起回答齁"},{"start":77.611,"end":78.572,"text":"現在是一個緩衝期今年是緩衝期"},{"start":101.403,"end":108.296,"text":"你現在有多少把握業者會100%配合這件事?還是說表面上配合你私底下還是賣不合格的管制?因為目前登記到目前為止將近15000"},{"start":114.367,"end":120.011,"text":"為這個機車的車主已經來登記了一萬五千個那持續還在進行當中"},{"start":143.686,"end":143.907,"text":"那當然嘛"},{"start":168.005,"end":189.373,"text":"業者一定會反彈但是公權力該做的時候就要做那把話講清楚規則定清楚我現在就要問經濟部經濟部你回答你現在講業者都有都願意配合那未來你如果做稽查你發現這家業者名義上講說我都會提供合法的排氣管可是我去稽查的時候發現他根本沒有在做這件事他掛羊頭賣狗肉還是繼續做非法的改管的行為的時候你有沒有處罰處罰的方案"},{"start":191.567,"end":214.008,"text":"跟委員報告我們一般都會會同那個環境部一起去稽查所以這個時候我們發現的時候我們會把相關資料請環境部馬上依照他的法規就著以處理現在的法規現在的處罰機制是什麼是一個聯合稽查動作剛剛劉委員的問題是什麼樣我說你現在是有聯合稽查機制嘛可是你抓到業者如果還是非法提供相關的這個排氣管的時候有沒有針對業者的處罰機制"},{"start":215.973,"end":242.363,"text":"有啊應該沒有但是對業者應該會是經濟部在負責吧還是你看所以這就是我今天要把你們一起叫上來的原因吧對不對環境部只針對有沒有環境部認可的這個排氣管以及他排的噪音是不是超過標準環境部好你看這就是漏洞對不對所以你們要開會討論嘛要不然你的源頭管理永遠都是永遠都沒有處理嘛對不對這個"},{"start":243.943,"end":253.83,"text":"剛剛都在講討論說這一個月對不對能不能雷厲風行我是希望可以啦因為這種事情其實不分藍綠、不分朝野也不分誰做環境部長、誰做經濟部長這全民共識這應該把它徹底殲滅所以就趕快開始做研討不要拖了好不好針對業者的課則啊"},{"start":262.395,"end":285.022,"text":"有課則機制才有辦法源頭阻卻這第一個問題第二個問題就是執法的效率我要談的是科技執法但其實剛剛很多委員都有問過我們今天不花太多時間在這個地方這未來有沒有打算擴大相關的預算因為剛剛大家都講一套一套行動資格太少我覺得不夠我覺得應該要來內政部警政署來講一下"},{"start":286.523,"end":294.653,"text":"這個使用之後有沒有對於這個節省警察的工作量能啊有沒有幫助使用科技執法的話"},{"start":297.073,"end":305.178,"text":"我跟你講是沒有科技執法設備的情況下要怎麼抓噪音你是不是交通警察是不是要跟人去執法對不對叫做環境聯合稽查對不對第一個是在配合聯合稽查"},{"start":316.004,"end":342.252,"text":"對第二個我們在勤務當中不管入檢、臨檢發現有這樣的都會處理對不對如果多一些科技執法的設備你是不是少一點警察出行的機會是是嘛對我要聽你這句話所以環境部、內政部想辦法也許警政也提供一些預算資源也是可以的啊因為這件事情有助於減少基層警力的壓力所以不管你們要從哪裡找錢出來就是要做嘛去加大這個科技執法這個設備的預算編列部長好這第二個"},{"start":345.073,"end":370.047,"text":"第三個交通部來你要靈活運用法規啊最近大家在吵得沸沸揚揚的叫做祭典制度對不對職業價值都崩潰了對不對這當然要檢討要做調整該祭典的沒祭典不祭典的去祭典你當然被罵嘛交通部噪音改管車輛人人得而誅之啊這沒有什麼好客氣的這種有沒有祭典現在他被倆包抄標很吵有沒有祭典"},{"start":370.447,"end":390.265,"text":"跟委員報告一下這個噪音管制超過標準的部分是按照這個噪音管制：是罰錢嘛：是按照他的法來做規定那如果說是屬於這一個消音器不全有影響行車安全的話那個是在這一個處罰條例裡面有這個規定那噪音管因為兩個適用的法源是有不一樣啊"},{"start":390.885,"end":407.767,"text":"我跟你講你們在那邊研討很多人在那邊研討說我們要沒入車輛這當然是最有效的裁罰機制可是你如果沒有一個你不能一下標準定那麼高然後都做不到一直研討中這樣是有問題的嘛最務實而且可以思考的方式就是祭典嘛你被人家抓包晚上你喜歡出去飆車就祭典啊"},{"start":408.328,"end":426.587,"text":"多記幾點,什麼就可以扣牌了?各位,各位報告一下,如果是飆車的話,那個一定記,而且這個掉過駕照噪音啦,我現在講的是噪音啦,飆車族的噪音對不對?是不是一樣來做個研討啦?這個把它納入記點,這個記點不會有民怨嘛,反而大家拍拍手覺得政府有魄力對不對?"},{"start":427.368,"end":427.388,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151564","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151564","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3361acaa7142881516197e999b50eca937cdcb4691eb09bf4e2187439edd53ab6c15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"11:54:32 - 12:02:10","影片長度":"00:07:38","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計8案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計1案。\n三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。\n四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案。）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-13"},"duration":458,"end_time":"2024-04-22T12:02:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T11:54:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":765,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（11時54分）謝謝召委，有請行政院李孟諺秘書長。"],["主席：好，請行政院李孟諺秘書長，謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長早，先恭喜你，從2019年到現在了。"],["李秘書長孟諺：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：2019年到現在五年多了，這個期間其實我們也經歷過上一屆很多部會重要組織改造的工程，比如農委會變農業部，觀光局變觀光署，甚至營建署還有數位部，其實上一屆的行政院進行組織改造的時候，本席也曾經發聲，期望行政院能夠開始考量體育署升格的可能性，這個其實也有很多委員還有很多運動員們大家共同的期待。爾後成立整個體育運動發展部，我們看到這個其實也是準總統賴清德的政見，在上週全中運開幕典禮，他再加碼變成了體育運動產業發展部，本席非常期待啦！","但一個組織要升格倒也不是說只是改個名字，也不像國民黨上個禮拜那樣子，說要求教育部表態支不支持，就能夠馬上生出一個組織來。過去整個體育署曾經是體委會，然後後來馬政府時代變三級的體育署。部是一個政策制定執行的縱向機關，整個委員會來講的話，又是整個政策協調統合的橫向機關。再把時間軸往前推的話，民國21年的時候，教育部以前設體委會；62年的時候多了一個教育部裡面的體育司；到86年的時候，行政院體委會去掛牌；在102年教育部體育署成立，到今天都一直在教育部的架構底下去推行各種組織改造以及各種體育運動事務。放到現在來看的話，我倒覺得比較不適合現在體育運動發展的狀況，所以將體育運動當成一個產業來做推動的話，我相信變成大家的一個共識。","準總統520、再1月就要上任了，他的政見是大家都在期盼體育部最大的一個原因了。就本席來看，三個可能，我要來就教秘書長，體育署要升格差不多有三條路：第一，新成立一個部會；第二個，去跟現有的合併，像韓國就是文化、觀光、體育三合一，加拿大的觀光、文化跟運動也是三合一，法國設立運動青年教育共同生活部，它是4個，都隨便併；第三個就是回復過去的體委會，這個比較不可能啦！都已經有準總統的政見，這個機率應該是最低。","但成立一個新的部會又涉及到整體組織的部會數目跟總員額法，跟別的部會去合併，你又要去煩惱跟誰合併。所以我才說秘書長你還要有29天要去煩惱這個，你也不能都沒動作，這是準總統的政見，雖然未來你要去交通部，可是現在確實是你們有答應人家什麼一個月內要去研議，所以還是要好好地去思考一下啦！","現在本席就認為說，你要想想看，過去國科會變科技部之後，後來又回來成為國科會，這叫做失敗，有時候費力去升格又降回三級機關，這就不好。總體來講的話，這都不會是一個月裡面就有辦法去弄出來的東西，但是也要去聆聽社會各界共同的心聲。以部的位階來作為運動事務的統籌模式看起來是世界的趨勢，但是整個體育事務最重要的，還是主事者的決策跟組織文化是否能夠靈活因應整個社會的變遷跟老百姓的需求，再搭配後續的組織升格，相對在整個政策的擘畫跟預算的分配來講的話，勢必會有更充沛的資源來推動我國整個體育運動的發展、照顧更多的運動員，所以我才會講說這三個請教秘書長，你覺得是哪一種最有可能？想聽你的高見。"],["李秘書長孟諺：這個我想還是要請我們的人事總處就整個院的組織架構再去評估來提出一個方案，目前因為還沒有進到主管單位的評估及提出方案，所以我這邊不太方便提出哪一個是比較可行。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那當然，但現在這二十幾天你還是秘書長，你總不能跑去交通部之後，這些都跟你沒關係了，這件事情真的……"],["李秘書長孟諺：我們會儘速請人事總處提相關可行的方案，然後當然還要做一些探討。"],["莊委員瑞雄：準交通部長當然要去接受別的挑戰，我們都認為以你的資歷、以你的能力，都綽綽有餘，但問題是這在二十幾天裡面，大家都一直在要求體育部這個部分，你又是秘書長，你還是要去統合，我倒覺得這二十幾天也不能就荒廢掉了，我們期待啦！因為到520也只剩一個月的時間而已，我上個禮拜其實有看到教育部次長去承諾在野黨說開始啟動評估了，院這邊的態度是什麼？所以我才會這樣來問你，你必須要有一定的規劃跟行動，我相信大家都樂觀其成。"],["李秘書長孟諺：我想以部會的層級來推動體育，這個是大家很期待的，也期待我們的運動選手能夠得到更多的支持跟照顧，有更好的組織、更多的經費來推動這個事情。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是那個部的組織數目是固定的啊。"],["李秘書長孟諺：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：然後總員額法裡面的數目也是固定的啊。"],["李秘書長孟諺：所以這些在將來方案確定後大概都還要修法，送到貴院這邊來尋求支持。"],["莊委員瑞雄：一定要修法嘛，也很有可能像法國這樣，也很有可能像韓國這樣，把幾個部會合在一起，你知道嗎？那都是結合3個部會，有的結合4個部會在一起。"],["李秘書長孟諺：瞭解。"],["莊委員瑞雄：所以你現在還沒有答案就對了？"],["李秘書長孟諺：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但是後面這不到一個月的時間，也不要去……"],["李秘書長孟諺：對。"],["莊委員瑞雄：畢竟在你還沒跳去做交通部長之前，這個還是要去做一個統合，要有一個進度出來，好不好？因為在準總統520上來以後，我相信在教育委員會裡面，或者是接下來不管是誰幹秘書長，我保證大家一定會再問這些，總是要有一個啟動，好不好？"],["李秘書長孟諺：這個是各界都很期盼的，有一個更強的體育組織來推動運動，包括運動選手的照顧跟體育賽事的推動。"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啊，因為你不是不做了，你是跑去別的部會而已，所以你們還是一體的，你這個還是要做一個起頭，好不好？"],["李秘書長孟諺：是，而且這是大家共同的榮譽。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，加油，謝謝！"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員的質詢。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你把我改名了。"],["主席：是莊瑞雄委員，抱歉！瑞雄，抱歉！"],["莊委員瑞雄：不會啦！"],["主席：下一位請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-13","speakers":["吳琪銘","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃建賓","丁學忠","高金素梅","張智倫","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","黃國昌","麥玉珍","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計 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從2019年到現在,2019年到現在變成5年多了,這個期間其實我們也經歷過上一屆很多部會重要組織改造的一個工程,像比如說農委會變農業部,觀光局變觀光署,甚至營建署還有數位部,這一些其實整個上一屆的行政院進行組織改造的時候,"},{"start":34.295,"end":49.312,"text":"本席也曾經去發聲去期望我們行政院能夠開啟事宜考量整個體育署升格的一個可能性那這個其實有很多委員還有很多運動員們大家共同的一個期待而後成立整個體育運動發展部"},{"start":50.754,"end":50.874,"text":"三、審查113年度"},{"start":66.716,"end":70.66,"text":"倒也不是說只是改個名字也不像國民黨上個禮拜那樣子說要求教育部表態支持不支持能夠馬上生出一個組織裡面來過去整個體育署曾經是體委會然後後來馬政府時代了變三級的體育署"},{"start":86.756,"end":106.902,"text":"那部是一個政策制定執行的一個縱向的一個機關那你整個委員會來講的話又是整個政策協調的一個統合的一個橫向的一個機關再把時間走你再去把它往前推的話你說在民國21年的時候教育部以前設體委會62年的時候多了一個體育部裡面的一個體育師到86年的時候那你行政院體委會去掛牌"},{"start":116.065,"end":132.052,"text":"在102年教育部體育署成立到今天都一直在教育部的一個架構底下那去推行各種組織的改造以及各種體育運動事務的一個推行放到現在來看的話我倒覺得說就比較不適合現在的一個體育運動發展的一個狀況所以將體育運動當成一個產業來做一個推動的話我相信變成大家的一個共識那準總統520"},{"start":142.497,"end":144.178,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":159.462,"end":159.842,"text":"第三個就是回顧過去的體委會這個比較不可能啦"},{"start":180.919,"end":182.12,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲"},{"start":209.838,"end":221.207,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne三、�"},{"start":230.994,"end":245.347,"text":"這都不是不會是一個月裡面就有辦法去弄出來的東西但是也要去聆聽社會各界共同的一個心聲那以不得未接來作為運動事務的一個統籌模式看起來是世界的一個趨勢但是這個整個體育事務最重要還是主事者他的決策跟組織文化"},{"start":254.915,"end":277.187,"text":"議員會否能夠靈活因應整個社會的變遷跟老百姓的一個需求在搭配後續的一個組織的一個升格相對在整個政策的一個步劃跟預算的分配來講的話勢必會有更充沛的資源來推動我國整個體育運動的一個發展照顧更多的一個運動員所以我才會講說這三個請教秘書長你覺得是哪一種最最有可能想聽你的告見嗯"},{"start":280.836,"end":281.716,"text":"主管單位評估提出方案"},{"start":297.302,"end":297.522,"text":"議員會議主席議員會議主席"},{"start":316.573,"end":328.938,"text":"因為這個准交通部長當然要去接受別的挑戰我們都認為以你的資歷、以你的能力那處處有餘啦但問題是這二十幾天內新人大家都一直要求體育部你要是還必須訂嘛你還是有這個統合我倒覺得說這二十幾天也不能就方廢掉啦我們期待啦因為你到520你知道存一鍋的時間而已"},{"start":340.362,"end":341.083,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":355.856,"end":368.717,"text":"以部會的層級來推動體育。我想這個是大家很期待。那期待我們的運動選手能夠得到更多的這個支持跟照顧。那有更好的組織、更多的經費來推動這個事情。"},{"start":370.763,"end":374.048,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":386.107,"end":387.609,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲"},{"start":404.07,"end":423.558,"text":"對。對。"},{"start":423.798,"end":446.808,"text":"這個是各界大家都很期盼一個更強的體育的組織來推動這個運動運動的這個選手的照顧跟運動的這個體育賽事的這個推動是啊因為你你你不是總部主你是召集百家你是召集百部而已啊所以你們還是議題啊你這個還是要做一個起頭吧好不好而且這個是大家共同的榮譽好好這樣加油謝謝好謝謝我們宗教兵委員的資訊謝謝"},{"start":454.008,"end":457.204,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關"}]}},{"id":"151563","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151563","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c33651f5e011640bc070cff82116bdf94ca8dcb4691eb09bf4e234bed05c71fdd9325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：基本上過去我都在質詢國防部，但是沒有結果。我們先看志航機場，志航機場本來是在我們原住民族的部落，在志航機場裡面，因為要開闢志航機場，所以把部落分成三塊，分別是富岡部落、加路蘭部落及石山部落，都在現在的志航機場旁邊，我們的鄉親每天要承受軍方噪音的侵害。民國89年雖然有這個補助，但是噪音補助要等30年才會輪到這個部落，是這樣的一個情況。如果我們看這個，噪音補助大概都是做什麼呢？這個很難防制啦！所以就只有冷氣機，冷氣機要等30年，但是冷氣機按照主計總處的分類，時間只有9年而已。這個部分經過我多次的質詢，國防部有增加預算，有改善了一些，但是還是很難。環境部是噪音管制法的主管機關，所以我要特別請環境部，尤其是我們的事務官要去協調國防部。","為了噪音管制法，我也曾經提出了修正的條文，也做了修正，應該要採取適當之防制及補償措施，像噪音管制法第十七條，97年12月3號所公布的只有防制措施，事實上難以防制，對不對？部長……"],["薛部長富盛：是，所以後來有補償措施。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為軍方的飛機、空軍難以防制，所以要訂定補償措施，因此就加了一個補償措施。但是從110年1月20號公布施行到現在，還是因為沒有錢、錢不夠，所以應該怎麼去解決這個問題？然後法律修了，但是地方主管機關認為還是用防制措施，問題是沒有辦法防制，然後補助的經費也不夠，還是要輪，所以這個部分應該怎麼去解決？我的具體建議，環境部要去協調國防部還有地方主管機關，就是縣市政府，應該要怎麼樣呢？這個補助最起碼也要受到補償，所以這個補償應該要優先就距離志航機場最近的部分，其實很遠的不需要，它真的很遠，所以這個第一個要去檢討。"],["薛部長富盛：這個是合理的，檢討。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：第二個，就是你們每年都應該補償，而不是很多年之後才要補償，所以這個部分是要請環境部去協調地方政府，因為這個部分確實是一個……"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：本來是原住民自己的部落，他們已經同意當志航機場了，結果他們還要每天遭受到這個噪音，卻又沒有辦法補償，可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：可以，我們來跟國防部討論一下補償措施的部分。"],["鄭天財Sra 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11:55:28","影片長度":"00:12:11","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-10"},"duration":731,"end_time":"2024-04-22T11:55:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T11:43:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":704,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時43分）謝謝主席，我想先請金管會主委。"],["主席：請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委，今天針對保險法大概有兩個部分的修正，其中一個就是有關於保險業對國外投資的上限是不是有下降的空間？我看你們的報告寫得洋洋灑灑，包含現在壽險業投資標的，還有在整個歷史上，為什麼過去是逐步調高他們對海外投資的上限。不過我覺得今天討論這個問題主要有一個重點，就是我們保險業的資金其實非常非常多，金額非常高，尤其前一陣子ETF發行的時候，雖然現在很多的淨值事實上是虧損的，可是那個時候大家瘋ETF，也顯示出國內投資管道跟工具的不足，但是我們如何導引這樣一個公共性資金，就是保險業的資金能夠導向公共建設，這是這一次條文修正所希望的目標。","另外，我從你們的報告中看到，相關金額事實上讓我非常訝異，你們的報告中提到，壽險業的資金在今年2月底達到31.93兆，但相對的，去年年底保險業資金實際在辦理專案運用、公共及社會福利事業之投資金額，包含加計不動產地上權形式辦理的公共投資金額，以及以有價證券方式投資公共建設之金額，夯不啷噹全部加起來，也只有5,900億。保險業目前實際投資在公共建設部分的金額，不管是以什麼樣的形式，對照我們的資金規模實在是九牛之一毛、杯水車薪。我想請教主委，我看到你們對於這個條文還是持反對意見，可是如何把壽險業的資金、保險業的資金導向公共建設？看起來顯然它的空間非常、非常、非常、非常──我可以把它乘以10倍、乘以100倍，非常之多！所以是過去沒有做嗎？還是到底出現什麼樣的問題？為什麼保險業資金就是沒有辦法導入公共建設呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實今天的報告點出兩個重點，第一個重點是保險資金的運用，不是錢投到哪裡就叫運用，它的年期跟收益率要跟它的負債面、保單匹配，這部分先要確定，這個標的有沒有辦法匹配、期限夠不夠長；第二個，有沒有做努力？我們在第8頁、第9頁列了很多我們努力的地方，提高它的控制比例、降低它的風險係數，所以重點是有沒有足夠的案源，然後這個案源提供的報酬率是不是符合保險業的期待。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，所以你講到一個重點，沒有案源就無法作為它的投資標的。時間暫停一下，我請一下財政部部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：剛剛主委認為有一個重點，第一個是有沒有投資的時間，因為保險業都是長期資金，長期資金也要做長期投資，還有基本上它有沒有穩健的收益，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：目前案源不足，所以我們如何增加案源而且可以符合我們的政策目標？我忘了在幾個禮拜前，我們財委會有一個專案報告，當時內政部花敬群次長提到就是要把資金導入社會住宅，可以討論發行綠色債券，部長也說這個可以做跨部會討論。部長，這就是剛才講的，我們為什麼沒辦法把保險業資金導入公共建設、案源不足？你們所講的社宅，也就是提供給社宅資金的綠色債券，你們現在到底進度為何？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，就我們來說，公共建設加速建設並提供好的公共服務是大家所期待的，透過民間的資金來做這個建設應該速度會加快，我們也很希望保險業的資金能進入到公共建設，所以我們促參司針對促參法的修正，第一個，我們擴大公共建設的範圍；第二個部分，我們對於促參的模式，其中一項我們做了有償PPP。也就是說，因為保險業的資金要進來，第一個要穩固，而且流動性要夠，有些自償性不足的公共建設，我們可以透過民間資金先進來B，也就是興建，然後營運，那政府呢？你的公共服務提供得好，由政府出錢來買公共服務，讓它有一個穩定的資金收入。第三個，我們每年都會辦招商大會，我們今年辦在7月，這就是釋出案源的方式。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你不承認案源不足嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：案源的部分，我們今年7月、每年都會辦公共建設招商，剛剛也提到，當然這個公共建設的年期跟收入都要跟它的保單相合。"],["王委員鴻薇：其實這個事情是一個很大的事情。"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：老實講，我覺得現在很多公共建設的自償率不足，所以沒辦法成為案源，這是一個很大的問題，現在很多公共建設的自償率根本不足嘛！我曾經提過，像在前瞻建設裡面做屏東棒球場，自償率極低無比，低到100年之後才能回收，它就沒辦法成為一個穩定的案源。我現在要問你的是在前幾個禮拜也有講到的，比如興建社會住宅，我認為興建社會住宅可以導入保險業資金，它有自償性，而這個綠色債券也許是因為520馬上就要到了，你留任，現在的內政部長不留任、金管會主委不留任，也許你們在這時候也沒辦法談，所以我想請問一下，針對社會住宅的綠色債券，你留任會推動嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，社會住宅所發行的公債部分，因為涉及到住都中心的設置條例，還有證券交易法規的適法性，這部分我們會跟內政部再來做討論。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以這個政策還是會繼續執行？至少在你……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們會去做……"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我說內政部長是不是要下臺、花敬群也不一定留下來啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：不管如何，我覺得這部分該做的工作還是要做，都有延續性，要研議的，我們也會持續研議。"],["王委員鴻薇：另外，因為時間的關係，剛才有很多委員談到娛樂稅，你們的理由是說娛樂稅是地方的稅源，對地方很重要，對鄉鎮也很重要，其實我有個具體建議，也許你們去問問這些地方政府，搞不好他們認為不重要啊！只有你們一直覺得，搞不好對他們來講，事實上是可以的，只要能促進地方產業的活動，它可能帶來更多商機、可能收入更多，所以也許你們可以去問問地方政府，否則只有中央講重要、重要，這個錢收回來也不是中央在用，是地方在用，可能搞不好地方政府真的覺得沒有那麼重要。","時間暫停，部長可以先請回，主委留下來。我要繼續談剛剛講的保險法，另外一個部分包含我還有其他委員提到的保險法第一百七十七條修正，剛才我在做提案說明的時候也有講，這在過去其實討論非常非常多，也都有跨黨派的委員提出來。對金管會來講，你們堅持金管會管的是保險業、管的是保險業對投資人、保險業對消費者，但是對於員工的部分，你推說這是勞動部的事情、這是勞資雙方的事情，金管會是不用管的，可是問題是我剛剛講了，保險業務員的管理規則是你們在定，而且我們長期看到保險業為了追求利潤，確實非常壓縮保險業務員的合理環境，包含明明應該是僱傭，但事實上是用承攬的方式，然後用僱用部分工時，還規定一個禮拜必須一天進來幾個小時，一、兩個小時就用這種部分工時的方式，或者這些契約可以變來變去。我認為如果沒有穩定的勞資關係、如果保險業務員長期在不公平的勞務契約下進行，那當然很難！你看，也許大家就怪到保險業務員，為了要佣金也好，或者要業績也好，就出現反過來傷害投資人、傷害消費者的這些事件，所以我們要求就是由金管會、主管機關會同勞動部來定之，這部分我真的不曉得為什麼主委、金管會永遠要拒人於千里之外？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個議題很久了，其實我們也跟勞動部一起去協調兩個工會的一些歧異，也有一些進展，包括有關賞罰的問題，也建立雙層的督導機制，我們有在努力，但是這裡面真的牽涉到……"],["王委員鴻薇：那顯然努力不夠嘛！為什麼這麼多年他們都一直在爭取，希望我們的金管會、主管機關給這些業務員一點點關愛的眼神，而你們卻不願意。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們一直很關心業務員，是真的。因為他有在招攬上的行為，我們必須要特別注意。"],["王委員鴻薇：我認為我們的主管機關不能繼續迴避應該負的責任，以上，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接著請黃珊珊委員。12時可以開放用食。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 案；\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案","agenda_id":"1133201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.28409375000000003,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.844093750000001,"end":8.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.008468750000002,"end":9.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.953468750000003,"end":56.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.203468750000006,"end":95.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.12159375,"end":103.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.14971875,"end":107.86221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.50346875000001,"end":110.57909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.98409375000001,"end":111.67596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.46909375000001,"end":123.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.31534375000001,"end":124.93971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.51346875,"end":136.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.12784375,"end":144.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.03784375,"end":153.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.74096875,"end":161.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.79471875000002,"end":161.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.87909375,"end":162.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.16159375,"end":164.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.06846875000002,"end":165.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.35096875000002,"end":185.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.62221875,"end":185.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.46596875,"end":186.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.32659375,"end":187.81596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.37284375000002,"end":190.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.14471875,"end":190.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.13596875000002,"end":197.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.95784375000002,"end":208.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.21346875,"end":209.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.70284375,"end":211.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.82909375000003,"end":216.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.00971875000002,"end":223.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.47284375,"end":224.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.90721875000003,"end":231.23534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.77534375000002,"end":241.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.98471875,"end":242.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.62534375,"end":247.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.30034375000002,"end":266.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.67284375,"end":267.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.30971875,"end":275.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.88659375000003,"end":296.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.74409375000005,"end":300.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.30034375,"end":301.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.21159375,"end":302.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.27471875000003,"end":304.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.89471875000004,"end":321.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.42784375,"end":392.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.91721875,"end":380.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.18971875,"end":397.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.29784375,"end":407.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.93346875000003,"end":413.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.94096875,"end":430.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.33909375,"end":452.80409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.37784375,"end":467.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.23221875,"end":469.96596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.96596875000006,"end":475.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.05034375,"end":471.29909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.60221875,"end":482.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.17096875000004,"end":482.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.35221875,"end":482.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.36909375000005,"end":499.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.68284375,"end":532.6397187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":533.7534687500001,"end":559.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.4709687500001,"end":585.3403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.3528437500001,"end":605.8603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.34971875,"end":622.3472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.51596875,"end":675.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":677.35971875,"end":692.9522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.4797187500001,"end":704.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":704.8659687500001,"end":711.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":711.83534375,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所以你講到一個重點沒有案源它就無法去作為它的投資標的時間暫停一下我請一下我們的財政部部長請莊部長"},{"start":246.656,"end":267.243,"text":"委員好,剛剛主委認為他有一個重點是有沒有第一個他有這個投資的這個時間因為保險業都是長期資金他長期資金他也要做長期投資還有他基本上他有沒有穩健的收益嘛對不對所以案源不足那所以"},{"start":268.363,"end":286.225,"text":"我們如何增加這個案源而且可以符合我們的一個政策的目標我記得在前我忘了幾個禮拜前我們這邊也有一個專案報告我們財委會專案報告當時花俊勤次長內政花俊勤次長"},{"start":286.846,"end":299.319,"text":"他提到了就是要把資金導入社宅社會住宅那麼呢可以討論發行綠色債券那麼部長也說這個可以做跨部會討論那麼部長"},{"start":303.503,"end":321.517,"text":"這就是剛才講的我們為什麼沒有辦法把保險業資金導入公共建設岸源不足那麼你們所講的社宅就是提供給社宅資金的綠色災艦你們現在到底進度為何"},{"start":322.758,"end":344.704,"text":"跟委員報告就我們來說公共建設加速的建設然後提供好的公共服務是大家所期待的那麼透過民間的資金來做這個建設應該的速度會加快所以我們也很希望保險業的資金能夠進入到公共建設所以我們在促參司的部分促參法的修正第一個我們擴大公共建設的一個範圍第二個部分呢"},{"start":347.325,"end":347.906,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":370.026,"end":370.346,"text":"中共共共建設自償力不足啦!"},{"start":398.38,"end":410.246,"text":"所以沒有辦法成為案員不過這個是一個很大的問題我們現在很多自產率根本不足嘛我曾經提過像我們前瞻建設你前瞻建設裡面像我們做這個屏東棒球場那自產率極低無比低到100年之後才能夠回收它就沒有辦法成為一個穩定的案員但是我現在要問你的是這個是在前禮拜有講到的"},{"start":424.392,"end":451.943,"text":"就是比如說你新建社會住宅我認為新建社會住宅是可以導入保險業資金的它有自償性啊那麼這個綠色債券你們也許因為現在520馬上就到你留任現在內政部長不留任今晚會主委不留任也許你們這個時候也沒有辦法談所以我想請問一下這個講的比如說像以針對社會住宅的綠色債券你留任嘛你會推動嗎"},{"start":453.87,"end":482.009,"text":"呃跟委員報告社會住宅這個呃你所謂發行公債這個部分齁那因為涉及到住都中心的設置條例還有證券交易法規的一個釋法性這個部分我們會跟內政部再來做討論是所以所以這個政策還是會繼續執行至少在於你因為我說內政部長4次要下台啦花慶群也不一定留下來啊呃我不管我覺得這個部分呢該做的工作還是要做都有延續性的那要研議的我們也持續會研議另外喔"},{"start":482.489,"end":484.29,"text":"因為時間關係剛才有很多委員談到娛樂稅當然你們的理由就是說因為娛樂稅是地方的稅源那地方對地方很重要也就是鄉鎮也很重要其實我有個具體建議也許你們去問問地方的這些政府"},{"start":499.798,"end":525.431,"text":"搞不好他們認為不重要啊只有你們在一直覺得搞不好他們認為說對他們來講事實上是可以啊只要能夠促進地方的這些產業的活動他可能帶來的商機更多他可能收入更多所以也許你們可以去問問地方政府否則只有你中央講重要重要這個錢收回來也不是你中央在用是地方在用可能搞不好地方政府真的覺得沒有那麼重要啦"},{"start":526.491,"end":532.226,"text":"好 那時間暫停 部長可以先請回那個主委先留下來"},{"start":533.78,"end":558.468,"text":"好,我要繼續談的就是剛講保險法另外的一個部分就是呢包含我還有其他的委員提到的保險法第177條的修正那剛才我在做提案說明的時候也有講我覺得這個過去其實討論的非常非常多也都有跨黨派的委員提出來"},{"start":559.548,"end":582.319,"text":"那麼對我們今晚會來講堅持的是今晚會管的是保險業管的是保險業對投資人保險業對消費者但是呢你覺得對員工的部分你把他推向說這個就是勞動部的事情這個是勞資雙方的事情今晚會是不用管的可是問題是我剛講保險"},{"start":586.44,"end":587.901,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":606.331,"end":628.833,"text":"他明明應該是僱傭但是呢他事實上是用承攬的方式然後呢用什麼用部分工時然後還規定說你一個禮拜你必須一天你必須進來幾個小時一兩個小時給你這種部分工時的方式或者這些契約可以變來變去所以我認為啊"},{"start":630.074,"end":650.783,"text":"如果沒有穩定的勞資關係,如果保險業務員是長期在不公平的勞務契約下在進行的,那當然很難,你看很多就是也許大家說就怪到保險業務員為了要他的這個佣金也好,或者要他的業績也好,就出現了"},{"start":651.903,"end":675.032,"text":"反過來傷害投資人傷害這些消費者的這些事件所以在金管會我們的其實我們的調整也是要求就是由我們的金管會主管機關會同勞動部來定之這個部分我真的不曉得為什麼主委金管會永遠要拒人於千里之外"},{"start":677.849,"end":701.628,"text":"這個議題很久了而且其實我們也在跟勞動部一起去協調兩個工會的一些起義也有一些進展包括那個有關賞罰的問題也建立了雙層的這種督導的機制我們有在努力了但是這裡面真的牽涉到那顯然努力不夠嘛為什麼他們這麼多年他們就一直在爭取希望我們的金管會希望我們主管機關給這些業務員一點點關愛的眼神而你們卻不願意"},{"start":704.895,"end":719.569,"text":"我們一直很關心業務員是真的包括他對因為他只在招攬上的行為我們必須要特別去注意我認為啦我認為我們的主管機關不能夠繼續去迴避你們應該負的責任以上謝謝謝謝委員謝謝接著請黃珊珊黃委員12點可以開放用時"}]}},{"id":"151561","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151561","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3367899b215d9316d9b97e999b50eca937cdcb4691eb09bf4e2aa8d9cd6bb4fabdd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:45:20 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對不對那所以現在除了這個源頭管理以外那更重要的是這所謂的科技執法因為我們地方政府環保局的人員其實人力上還是不足啊"},{"start":156.235,"end":178.278,"text":"而且你很難說要配合是這個街頭的這個取締或說街頭的一個檢視所以說科技執法相對重要但是你在第10頁的一個報告科技執法說114年增加306套完全沒有進步為什麼這樣講這是去年10月的數字"},{"start":180.231,"end":206.167,"text":"去年10月環境部在做專案報告的時候你就是講2025年306套那半年過去了在去年10月的時候每一個委員我記得至少本席節目好幾位委員也都在提說其實如果說科技執法真的能夠來讓有些都會地區可以來增加這樣的一個執法量能的話應該要考慮多加的一個增加"},{"start":207.088,"end":235.584,"text":"但半年過去了到今天你還是拿114年306套來我說實在話這不要講螳射啊這半年沒有任何的進步沒有增加你自己去看即便是新北市人口數最多啊36我們新北市幾個行政區29個行政區平均一個行政區一套阿公仔比較不順眼一個行政區一套"},{"start":239.017,"end":246.383,"text":"您看得出問題了嗎?你剛剛講是112到116本來是計畫本來就規劃306套所以它執行期限是到116等於2027年是你現在提早一年變2025年306套這個是去年10月跟我們報告的數字"},{"start":260.595,"end":260.635,"text":"拜訪委員"},{"start":277.746,"end":301.767,"text":"你現在都讓本席看到本席為什麼今天特別點出來就是就事論事拿你的報告來去做說明去年10月本席就已經提過了就說其實科技執法確實地方政府也有需求那每一套設備我記得那時候我有詢問過差不多80萬左右看固定式或是移動式80到100萬對不對那你現在關我的新北市36套"},{"start":303.746,"end":331.804,"text":"行政區平均一個一套,就是板橋區一個,綜合區一個那更不用講其他桃園,我們有桃園的委員27套台北市23套我們說不算,這真的太少那對比我們的超速,交通部有來嗎?我們超速,本席如果所有印象的話我們超速全台灣有多少?師長剛好在師長講一下我們交通部超速我們測速照相有多少?"},{"start":334.246,"end":339.476,"text":"一萬多吧我記得沒錯的話這個數量的部分我可能沒有準備好不好意思噪音我們"},{"start":343.703,"end":364.377,"text":"我再次強調啊如果你沒有違規你沒有在夜深人靜的時候那我跟我們剛剛委員有講本席的泰山本席的林口本席的淡水還有很多的新市鎮半夜在那邊開過去今天別人不知道你開好車還是今天別人不知道你有改裝車"},{"start":366.205,"end":392.962,"text":"還是強調不是說你開好車就應該被罰不是你改裝車就被罰而是你有沒有製造噪音如果說有製造噪音抱歉尤其是在夜間人靜老人清夢的時候我們當然沒有辦法接受啊那與其要我們環保人員在那邊去設一個路口然後在那邊去疲於奔命然後半夜來執勤你的噪音的照相其實就有必要現在全台灣到2025年只有306套"},{"start":396.516,"end":402.342,"text":"真的太少部長你也你也要離開啊你是要跟鄉親出是陳建仁陳建仁最好是各位看有誰騎快一點再拿出來用所以部長"},{"start":412.992,"end":442.279,"text":"部長過去這段時間真的我還是肯定你有一些專業或說你也願意要一些地方要來去做調整所以說源頭管理的部分剛剛其實我看到報告我是給你機會讓你說明讓你來講出來確實有在做這個源頭管理但是噪音偵測的部分各縣市政府尤其環保局相關的人士都跟我們反映應該要增加半年過去沒有增加我覺得這是不合格的"},{"start":443.902,"end":444.302,"text":"為什麼嘆氣?說實在話啦!"},{"start":454.721,"end":458.663,"text":"部長真的就是去年10月份的報告跟一模一樣我下一個委員已經要上台了我不要拖下面的時間但是我現在講的是部長"},{"start":477.435,"end":499.525,"text":"交代你下面這個是哪一個司要做的政務官可能會離開但是你的部門部會不會離開嗎請洪委員不要誤會我覺得這一個部分應該要在這一個月裡面來去盤點我們還有多少資源以及增加到2024年2025年306還可以增加幾套請具體的給本席書面資料可以嗎因為時間的關係好謝謝好謝謝洪委員"}]}},{"id":"151559","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151559","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3362ecaa6e12224f54cf397fd65b575a832dcb4691eb09bf4e232e7a0c5883758305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"11:45:20 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11:51:23","影片長度":"00:06:03","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於國家運輸安全調查委員會預算凍結案計6案。）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-8"},"duration":363,"end_time":"2024-04-22T11:51:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T11:45:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":893,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（11時45分）謝謝主席，請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：主委你好。眾所矚目的阿里山森林鐵路經過15年的修復，萬眾都期待喔！7月1號就要全面通車，明天栩悅號就要開始迎新上路了。今天我想要請教主委的是，裡面有很多安全的問題你們到底有沒有掌握？","我們看一下，去年4月阿里山森林鐵道驚傳落石砸到軌道，還是靠遊客揮手去示警才沒有發生危險，運安會那時候有掌握這個信息嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：我們有時候會接到民眾的通報，確實這個事情有時候會發生，沒有錯。但是……"],["張委員啓楷：還好有遊客在那邊揮手，對不對？沒有的話就發生問題，怎麼辦？","我們再看第二個，在今年4月份、剛剛才發生的，有一輛列車發現有樹倒塌，還好有及時煞車然後通報全面清理。","主委，你有看到一個很重要的重點嗎？現在看起來這兩個案件都是要靠目測，對不對？是不是？我們是科技時代耶！這樣安不安全？尤其阿里山很多都是彎道嘛，對不對？它有一些死角，不能只有靠目測啊！","我要問你兩件事情，第一個，你發現這個問題之後有沒有去處理？第二個，今天本席提出這個安全的問題，你們要怎麼改善這個問題？不能一直靠眼睛去測試啊！是不是？你們怎麼解決這個問題？"],["林主任委員信得：你說的這兩件都是天然災害，天然災害我們確實也有收到通報。那剛剛委員提的是說，是不是有一些系統或是科技可以偵測？當然是可以，但它是阿里山的森林鐵路，它的主管機關是不是會投入相關經費或者預算去做？那我們……"],["張委員啓楷：對呀，所以你要去支持它，行政院整體要去支持！阿里山不是只有嘉義之光，全世界都矚目，對不對？這對臺灣的觀光非常、非常重要啊！","老實講，第一個，絕對不能發生安全問題……"],["林主任委員信得：對，我們會……"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，今天本席很清楚跟你講，至少這兩個案子是非常明確的，是不是？"],["林主任委員信得：是，我們會提醒……"],["張委員啓楷：那你到底要怎麼去解決這個安全問題？不要再靠目測。"],["林主任委員信得：我們會提醒主管機關這個確實要注意，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：你能不能差不多在一個禮拜，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["張委員啓楷：針對這兩個案子你要怎麼去處理，好不好？","我給你看下一個，其實4月3日花蓮大地震的時候，隔天有發生一個很重要的事情，那是及時有搶救下來，主委，你看一下，那時候那個大石頭掉下來壓住軌道，隔天而已喔，是落石的告警系統發揮了功能，這太魯閣號才逃過一劫，對不對？","所以我就問你啊，目前阿里山的鐵路有預警系統，可是那個範圍太少了、太小了，對不對？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你今天能不能答應我趕快去幫忙？多做一些、讓那個範圍擴大，可以嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：我們可以把臺鐵的成功經驗，如同委員所講的，我們可以請他們延伸過去，請他們把這個經驗……"],["張委員啓楷：成功的我們就要沿用到阿里山鐵道這邊。"],["林主任委員信得：是！"],["張委員啓楷：這個非常、非常重要。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["張委員啓楷：你剛剛說你要去做，你在一個禮拜完成之後，你跟我講做到什麼程度、準備怎麼做，好不好？一個禮拜給我這個，可以嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：可以，好。"],["張委員啓楷：這是好事情，要快一點！"],["林主任委員信得：是，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：我們再看一下，這個我不曉得你有沒有掌握，不曉得你調查了沒有、改進了沒有，去年就有媒體直接爆料，我後來去查也有這個事情。他在2023年爆料說一年前──也就是2022年4月的時候，阿里山鐵道因為操作失誤造成了擠軌事件，所以轉轍器扭曲變形，就是我圈起來的這個地方，大家看一下。主委，就是這個圖的圓圈圈，右邊這個圖，右邊這個就是它的轉轍器，整個就扭曲變形了；左邊這個鐵道都已經凸起來了，這很危險啊！你們當初看到這個報導有沒有去掌握？有改善嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：我們的資料蒐集是它不是營運列車，所以沒有立案，它不是營運列車發生的事故。"],["張委員啓楷：怎麼不是營運列車呢？不是啦！它是鐵道上面出現這個問題啦！鐵道的轉轍器讓軌道凸起來，那車子進來當然就會危險。"],["林主任委員信得：這是主管機關軟硬體相關設施的改善，不是屬於運輸事故，不一樣啦！"],["張委員啓楷：不過還是危險，這個要處理，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：對、對，是危險，沒有錯，我們會注意。"],["張委員啓楷：好，所以本席今天做了兩個非常具體的要求，第一個就是示警系統目前真的還是不夠，你已經答應了，所以你一個禮拜內把它提出來說你會怎麼做，把資料送到本席這邊，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["張委員啓楷：像這個安全都要注意，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：好。"],["張委員啓楷：因為阿里山是嘉義之光，明天開始有新的列車已經要啟動了，7月1號全面都要啟動，這對整個臺灣的觀光推向國際非常非常重要，我們共同推動國際的觀光，風華再現，對臺灣是好的，一方面拜託一下，安全一定要做到，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：一個禮拜內，相關的調查跟改善的計畫，送到本席辦公室，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝主委。"],["主席：再請主委、運安會一週內回應張啓楷委員。","下一位請蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員不在。","請王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在。","請鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員不在。","請徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員、徐欣瑩委員不在。","請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員黃健豪、黃仁委員所提書面質詢，列入紀錄並刊登公報。委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未答復部分，請運安會儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-8","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","林沛祥","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","游顥","林倩綺","洪孟楷","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","張啓楷","黃健豪","黃仁"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 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對不對在軌道壓住嘛"},{"start":187.489,"end":208.443,"text":"昨天而已喔是落實的這個告警系統發揮的功能啊所以太魯閣在逃過一劫啊對不對我就在問你啊我們阿里山目前的鐵路是有預警系統啊可是那個範圍是太少了太小了對不對你今天能不能答應我趕快去幫忙都做一些啊這樣那個範圍擴大可以嗎"},{"start":210.38,"end":230.893,"text":"我們可以把台鐵的成功經驗就如同委員講的我們可以請他們延伸過去成功的我們就要沿用到阿里山鐵道這邊好不好這個非常非常重要這個你剛說你要去做一個禮拜內你完成之後你跟我講你做到什麼程度準備怎麼做好不好"},{"start":231.713,"end":249.804,"text":"這個我不曉得你有沒有掌握啦,不曉得你調查了沒有改進了沒有。 古年的時尊有媒體就直接爆料了,我後來去查也有這個事情。2023年一爆料,他講一年前,2022年四月時尊。"},{"start":253.544,"end":273.271,"text":"阿里山這個鐵道阿因為那個操作的失誤造成了擊軌事件所以他轉測器扭曲變形就是我扣起來那個地方大家看一下各位就是這個圖圓圈圈右邊這個圖右邊這個就是他轉測器整個就扭曲變形了左邊這個鐵道都已經凸起來了這很危險阿你們當初看到這個報導有沒有去掌握有改善嗎"},{"start":285.414,"end":287.797,"text":"為什麼不是營運列車嗎?他是鐵道地面出現這個問題啦"},{"start":300.76,"end":301.961,"text":"主管機關以軟硬體相關設施的改善,不是屬於運勢訴估。"},{"start":316.514,"end":332.842,"text":"所以本期今天做了兩個非常具體的這個要求第一個就是市井這個系統目前真的是還是不夠的你今天答應了喔所以你一個禮拜內把它提出來說你怎麼做把資料送到本期這邊來好不好那像這個安全都要注意好不好因為這個阿里山市"},{"start":334.798,"end":334.818,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"151558","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151558","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3360f47ae835aa7fa04f397fd65b575a832dcb4691eb09bf4e2adb3a6b00095d47c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:39:45 - 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邀請主委請您主委請問主委 你有掌握到上個禮拜一個新聞波音工程師控787客機製造超捷徑恐解體墜機呼籲全球停飛 這個新聞你有看到嗎"},{"start":28.704,"end":42.717,"text":"知道根據報導有夢幻科技之稱的波音787被波音公司工程師他今年1月向美國聯邦航空管理局提出指控"},{"start":44.02,"end":69.593,"text":"稱自己發現波音787存在飛機結構完整性的工程問題那波音在787的機身組裝過程中減少步驟造成機件機身零件在組裝時未能正確填補微小縫隙此舉可能縮短飛機壽命而且隨著飛機老化風險會變成災難性的故障那美國"},{"start":70.994,"end":99.427,"text":"聯邦航空總署證實在進行相關調查出席參議院國土安全委員會聽證會被問及的時候他的回答是就他們目前所知全世界787機隊都要注意需要檢查縫隙並且確保不會提前發生故障我想請教一下主委運安會統計當中臺灣的航空公司機隊當中目前有多少數量該型號的飛機"},{"start":101.104,"end":124.824,"text":"好像我了解說好像沒有嘛沒有啊主委你掌握資訊有問題喔我們的統計目前台灣現有的8家我請航空組的組長來沒關係啊我數字對不對你告訴我啦8家民用航空公司中長榮有7879型4架78710型11架啦我不知道我的數字對不對正確"},{"start":125.785,"end":149.236,"text":"然後華航這就出現一個問題我就要問我們的主委你知道華航在2022年美國參議員葛禮翰來訪台後曾經當面跟蔡英文總統提及希望台灣能夠採購波音787客機然後這個新聞你知道嗎你知道當時聯合報報導揭露之後你知道總統府怎麼回應嗎"},{"start":156.377,"end":170.948,"text":"總統府痛斥聯合報破壞國人外交工作的信心傷害臺美情誼其心可異外交部深感遺憾連總統府都出來譴責聯合報不實報導結果聯合報說買24架後來買幾架請問你知道後來買幾架波音787"},{"start":182.95,"end":183.27,"text":"可惡的總統府啊!"},{"start":210.372,"end":212.218,"text":"聯合辦24項完全講對了竟然可以譴責"},{"start":217.861,"end":247.183,"text":"那我現在回頭問當時媒體報導就是有點擔心787是不是我們應該掌握他的飛航狀況免得危害台灣人民的安非安問題所以聯合報才報導有24架採購總統府可以說你運安會如果覺得787你要背書你可以說大家放心787進來我可以背書你要不要背書可不可以背書主委787安全你可以背書可不可以"},{"start":248.275,"end":275.316,"text":"我們要先去瞭解狀況好我告訴你你可以要瞭解狀況是一個說法我為安全背書是一個說法我不為安全背書也是一個說法但是這個總統府跟外交部竟然可以譴責聯合報一個正確的報導這是一個非安該有的態度現在現在全世界關心七八七阿要不要謝謝聯合報聯合報報導這麼正確24架欸完全如他所說欸"},{"start":276.795,"end":297.791,"text":"所以回頭我就要講今天我們當然運安會很關心我們的運輸安全但是說真的我知道你們有你們的無奈現在很多東西都是政治凌駕專業你光這件事情我希望運安會好好瞭解一下七八七的整個狀況好不好可不可以謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151557","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151557","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3364f22f0e5a19f302697e999b50eca937cdcb4691eb09bf4e211c02b0a35ec6cc75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:36:04 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rules鋪好了，請你回去回想清楚，張綱維這一個人在行政院到底是借誰的勢，可以嗎？"],["李秘書長孟諺：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","再來請麥玉珍委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-13","speakers":["吳琪銘","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃建賓","丁學忠","高金素梅","張智倫","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","黃國昌","麥玉珍","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計 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11:43:09","影片長度":"00:11:12","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-10"},"duration":672,"end_time":"2024-04-22T11:43:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T11:31:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":677,"blocks":[["賴委員惠員：（11時31分）謝謝主席。有請部長還有賦稅署署長。"],["主席：請莊部長以及賦稅署宋署長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：部長好、署長好。娛樂稅長期採取寓禁於徵的態度，其實娛樂稅的第一次公布是在民國31年，從31年開始以後，這個過程裡頭只有一次的修法。針對今天我們討論的這個議題，我想跟部長、署長探討，戒嚴時期因為政府擔心老百姓過度奢侈，所以用抽稅的方式來降低民眾參與奢侈活動的意願，可是避免奢侈而徵娛樂稅的，其實就是現在大部分民眾的日常活動，不管是運動比賽、高爾夫球賽，還是舞蹈表演、看電影。我想在這裡請教部長，如果看電影在法律的定義是奢侈，你怎麼看待？你平常看不看電影？大概也沒時間吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，很多年沒看。"],["賴委員惠員：你認為看電影是奢侈的嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：現在娛樂稅是不是還是有奢侈這樣的定義？倒是也沒有。有關娛樂稅，您剛剛提了很多，我們也知道，隨著社會經濟的轉化以及娛樂消遣活動越來越多元，有一些項目適不適合課，在我們去年邀請各地方政府來開會的時候有討論過，認為部分課稅項目可以做一些調整，稅率也可以調整，即第五條規定的稅率上限也可以做一些調整考量。這個部分事實上如同委員所說的，當然項目可以做一些檢討跟調整。"],["賴委員惠員：對於新形式的表演型態，怎麼樣定義要不要徵收娛樂稅？其實我們信手拈來就有很多，不管是脫口秀，還是內容有趣的演講，到底哪一個需要徵收？它的標準在哪裡？脫口秀要徵娛樂稅，但有趣的演講不徵。說實在的，如果虛擬偶像的線上演唱會不徵，有實體空間的卻要徵？事實上都非常的空洞。蔡依林的線上活動、線上演唱會扣不扣稅？如果他到小巨蛋裡頭舉辦，則是絕對要扣稅，差別在哪裡？舊時代的法令無法解釋新時代的表演方式，我在這裡要跟部長跟署長講的是，如果再不調整，怎麼跟上來？我簡單的用韓國的電影產業來講，韓國的電影產業用斜槓操作理論，實際上，真的把韓國電影推向全世界。你看一來可以推動他們國內的觀光，再來還可以收這麼多的海外版權，甚至把國家形象整體帶動。到底文化事業我們要不要課稅？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，娛樂稅部分，當然是具有娛樂性質的部分由事實認定要不要課稅，委員剛剛提到的許多文化事業，現在有一些相關法令，比如文創法或文化事業補助相關條例等等，這些都有補助作用，所以就如同我剛才說的，上次我們跟地方政府開會討論，大概有一個想法，就是未來賦予地方政府一些彈性，就是地方政府在替他的文化政策目的，或者因為他的鄉鎮、地區特性需要發展一個項目，就賦予他們停徵的權限，這樣地方政府就可以在自己的權限內去做一些彈性的運用，然後獎助這樣的一個文化事業等。"],["賴委員惠員：部長，你也看出來了，中央的補助跟地方稅收其實政策是互相矛盾的，我們也看出來了，這是不是變相的收回補助？當然，我們不需要繞這麼一大圈，然後把這個政策搞得這麼歪樓，事實上你也知道現今這個問題的嚴重性。我試著再跟部長討論，不然我請問署長好了，署長，LPGA是一個高爾夫的大型賽事，它在臺灣舉行過，未來我們是不是可以看到它再跟臺灣業者合作，在臺灣舉辦賽事呢？我想真正的問題是，娛樂稅的徵收，是不是影響高爾夫球運動在臺灣發展的一個最主要原因？你想，這麼大的一個國際賽事，如果我們在稅法上一直停滯不前，該怎麼辦呢？尤其老年化社會來臨，越來越多人會到球場打球，署長，你怎麼看待呢？"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，像高爾夫球這樣的運動，其實大家也都蠻鼓勵的，當然他使用的高爾夫球場，環保團體也有一些不同意見……"],["賴委員惠員：是。"],["宋署長秀玲：像這種國際性競賽，過去也曾經來跟我們申請減免稅額，包含我們剛才講的LPGA，還有SBL這種超級籃球及中華職棒等，都曾經跟我們申請過免稅。目前我們減免的稅額，以112年為例，減了一千五百多萬，所以這也可以達到這個目的，就是看舉辦活動的性質……"],["賴委員惠員：署長，一千多萬的減稅，其實占我們國家整體稅收而言是非常非常少的，放眼全世界，高稅率的北歐國家都有優惠稅率，所以我們是不是應該要廢除呢？你看那些租稅負擔一向是最高的北歐國家，包括荷蘭等，人家都是減稅優惠，而到現在你們還一直主張要收稅，其實你們也非常清楚，文化跟娛樂活動應該要提升，但為什麼這樣一個消費稅，你們還在那邊猶豫不決要不要減稅呢？署長，我再給你看一個例子，以看電影這一塊為例，其實稅率也不同，看國外電影和看本國語言的電影不一樣，尤其是在雙北，新北跟臺北又有兩套機制，這麼簡單的一個稅目，收入已經這麼少了，為什麼不廢除呢？是不是可以告訴我，你們最大的困難在哪裡？"],["宋署長秀玲：委員，因為娛樂稅本身是地方稅，在非直轄市的縣市，這個稅是屬於鄉鎮稅，鄉鎮稅對鄉鎮來講是一個非常重要的財源，也許委員覺得金額不大，但對他們就夠……"],["賴委員惠員：其實它的金額並不大，如果中央可以補助，是不是就可以完整地把這個問題解決呢？每年收不到20億，可以用統籌分配款來填補啊！我們看得出來六都和其他縣市這部分收到的稅款非常非常少，為什麼我們不面對這個問題呢？部長，這個稅收的占比這麼低，稽徵成本卻多出10倍，需要這麼多人來做這件事情，不管是印花稅或所有其他的稅，全部把它匡在一塊，要用這麼多成本，你覺得划得來嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，就您上面的PowerPoint可以看出來，一塊錢大概的成本是0.17%，我想這個部分……"],["賴委員惠員：是，這是新北市111年的預算。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，是，是。"],["賴委員惠員：是啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：雖然金額不高，但是對地方政府來說是一個重要財源，然後他們也需要財政自主的一個空間，至於中央統籌分配稅款是用國稅的一部分稅目及一定比率納入，中央統籌分配稅款在分配給相關地方政府的時候，是按照公式來分配，所以並不會因為娛樂稅廢止以後，就可以透過中央統籌分配稅款來增加，我想這是兩個不同的事情，因為娛樂稅是地方稅，所以不會進入中央統籌分配稅款裡面。"],["賴委員惠員：部長，如果是兩件事的話，基於你是財政部長，站在位階這麼高的一個位子，你有沒有想過用什麼辦法來把它克服掉？你們有沒有評估過，停徵對產業發展的影響？就是停徵了，有沒有機會帶動周邊的商機？其他的稅收有沒有可能變多？我希望你可以提出這樣的評估報告給本席，就是停徵以後是不是會影響地方的自有財源？以統籌分配款來補貼的部分，你剛才已經說不可以，但是不是可以評估現有人力若用於其他稅徵稽徵作業，能不能提升賦稅效率？這些都是本席希望你們在短期內提供給本席的資料，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，是，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接著請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 案；\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案","agenda_id":"1133201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.55409375,"end":1.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.14034375,"end":3.6253437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.21971875,"end":7.793468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.434718750000002,"end":8.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.869093750000001,"end":10.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.05034375,"end":16.129718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.500968750000002,"end":34.017218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.40534375,"end":53.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.03096875,"end":60.190343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.66284375,"end":68.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.44221875000001,"end":83.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.33846875,"end":86.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.97096875000001,"end":87.19034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.19034375000001,"end":87.22409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.22409375000001,"end":87.24096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.24096875000001,"end":87.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.78096875,"end":87.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.79784375,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.81471875000001,"end":88.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.62471875,"end":108.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.03534375000001,"end":107.62596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.26721875000001,"end":115.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.02971875,"end":135.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.08284375000001,"end":128.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.79471875000002,"end":169.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.87784375,"end":172.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.57784375,"end":173.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.07971875,"end":180.72846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.42034375,"end":182.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.82096875000002,"end":187.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.30534375000002,"end":192.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.33846875,"end":198.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.97034375,"end":213.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.09034375000002,"end":237.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.16221875000002,"end":295.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.66346875000002,"end":245.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.78159375,"end":246.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.03471875000002,"end":246.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.99596875,"end":251.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.01159375000003,"end":286.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.06221875,"end":286.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.26471875000004,"end":286.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.18784375,"end":331.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.13096875,"end":368.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.58909375,"end":370.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.60596875000005,"end":405.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.47409375,"end":483.88784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.17471875,"end":484.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.19159375000004,"end":493.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.85346875000005,"end":487.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.90409375,"end":488.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.08034375000005,"end":498.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.38784375000006,"end":498.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.77159375,"end":498.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.97409375,"end":499.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.02471875000003,"end":547.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.76721875000004,"end":500.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.9622187500001,"end":600.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.74159375,"end":555.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.9778437500001,"end":560.7365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.3272187499999,"end":561.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.34409375,"end":561.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.8572187500001,"end":624.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":603.8015937499999,"end":603.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.91221875,"end":626.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.63346875,"end":631.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.8647187500001,"end":637.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":637.8047187500001,"end":648.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.0265937500001,"end":660.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":658.84784375,"end":661.90221875},{"speaker":"S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這個到底哪一個需要徵收?它的標準在哪裡?你脫口秀要徵這個稅 然後有趣的一個演講不徵 這個說實在的 如果說虛擬偶像的一個線上演唱會 那不徵 然後沒有實體空間的要徵 這個"},{"start":174.087,"end":174.888,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":199.068,"end":199.428,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":215.611,"end":237.307,"text":"議論然後他也實際上就是說真的就是把韓國的這個電影推向了全世界你看他一來他可以推推動他國內的一個觀光然後再來就是說他還可以收海外這麼多的一個版權甚至他把國家的一個形象整體的一個帶動那到底這個文化事業我們要不要課他的稅"},{"start":240.485,"end":268.034,"text":"跟委員報告娛樂稅當然是具有娛樂性質的部分然後用事實來認定要不要課稅那您剛剛提到許多的文化事業那我們現在有一些相關的法律比如說文創法還有文化事業什麼補助條例等等這些都有一些補助的作用那所以我也跟委員說明就如同我剛剛說的就是我們未來呢我們希望我們也跟上次跟地方政府開會的時候"},{"start":269.874,"end":279.941,"text":"大概有一個想法就是說賦予地方政府有一些他可以他寄他的文化政策的目的或者因為他的一個鄉鎮的他的這個地區的一個特性他需要發展的一個項目那麼賦予他們一個停征的權限"},{"start":285.845,"end":287.046,"text":"﹚立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會提案須經各黨團簽署不復議須經各黨團簽署不復議須經各黨團簽署"},{"start":307.264,"end":309.285,"text":"﹚立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會及第15條條文修正草案。"},{"start":332.173,"end":332.714,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書"},{"start":354.657,"end":356.278,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":370.732,"end":385.568,"text":"報告委員,像高爾夫球這樣的運動其實大家也都是蠻鼓勵的但是當然他使用的高爾夫球場也有一些環保團體有不同的意見但目前我們這種國際性的競賽過去也曾經來跟我們申請解免過稅額"},{"start":387.35,"end":387.37,"text":"〔記者註冊〕"},{"start":406.664,"end":425.512,"text":"一千多萬的一個減稅其實這個在我們整體國家的一個稅收其實非常非常的少那我們如果晃遠全世界我們再用全世界來看的話就是說我再請問署長就是說高稅率的北歐國家都有優惠的一個稅率了"},{"start":426.072,"end":447.727,"text":"所以我們是不是應該要匯儲呢那你們還在一直主張說要收稅那你看從所有北歐的一個國家他其實租稅負擔一向是最高的喔不管是荷蘭不管是就是整體這些北歐的國家那你們其實也非常的一個清楚就是說這個文化跟娛樂活動"},{"start":448.547,"end":449.408,"text":"蘇長,我再給你看一個那個就是在看電影在看電影這一塊"},{"start":463.638,"end":492.009,"text":"其實它的稅率也不同你是看國外的電影還是看本國的語言片這個也不一樣尤其是在雙北跟台北又有兩套的一個機制怎麼為什麼一個這麼簡單的一個稅款那它收入這麼少了為什麼不會它呢是不是可以告訴我你們最大的一個困難在哪裡委員因為娛樂稅本身它是地方稅那在非直銷式的縣市這個稅它是屬於鄉鎮稅"},{"start":494.124,"end":499.465,"text":"但是他其實他的金額並不大,如果中央可以補助的話,那是不是我們就可以完整的把這個問題來解決呢?每年收不到20億,你的統籌分配款就可以來補這些啊。我們看看,其實在六都裡頭還有其他的縣市裡頭,"},{"start":518.689,"end":546.364,"text":"我們看得出來其實這一個收到的一個稅款是非常非常的少為什麼我們不要面對的這個問題呢甚至就是說部長我想這個稅收的一個占比這麼低成本多出了一個10倍那你還需要這麼多人來做這些事情不管就是你的印花稅你的這個所有的一個稅然後把它框在一塊要用這麼多的一個成本你覺得划得來嗎"},{"start":548.065,"end":558.736,"text":"委員就您這個上面的powerpoint在看出來就一塊錢大概它的成本是0.17%0.17我想這個部分要很明確對這是用新北市嘛121年的預算嘛是是是是啊但是雖然金額不高但對地方政府來說它是一個重要的財源然後呢他們也需要財政自主的一個空間"},{"start":570.208,"end":598.955,"text":"那至於中央統籌分配稅款它是用國稅的一部分項稅務以及一定的比例納入中央統籌分配稅款那中央統籌分配稅款在分配給相關的地方政府的時候是按照公式來分配所以並不會因為娛樂稅把它廢止以後就可以透過中央統籌分配稅款來增加我想這個部分是兩個不同的事情那我想因為那個這個娛樂稅是地方稅所以它不會進入中央統籌分配稅款裡面去"},{"start":599.875,"end":600.335,"text":"財政部長陳秀寳財政部長陳秀寳財政部長"},{"start":624.995,"end":648.442,"text":"有沒有可能變多呢?所以這個我希望就是說你可以提出這樣的一個評估報告給本席然後評估就是聽證以後是不是會影響地方的自有財源那可以不可以用統籌這個第一條你說是不可以的嘛是不是可以做報告給本席然後評估現有的人力若是用在其他的一個稅徵的一個作業"},{"start":649.002,"end":649.483,"text":"王宏威、王委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"151555","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151555","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3360adde0c3cd318952cff82116bdf94ca8dcb4691eb09bf4e2ad8eac70585468305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:25:56 - 11:42:26","影片長度":"00:16:30","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":990,"end_time":"2024-04-22T11:42:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T11:25:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":926,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時26分）主席、各位大家午安，繼續請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長，移動汽機車的噪音污染其實是很嚴重的，2021年有一則新聞說新北市6天執法開罰了1,500件，6天就取締了1,500件！當然我們知道這個設備必須要有測速、有聲音還必須照相，所以它是很複雜的一套機器。"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["林委員淑芬：我們也知道新北市目前分配到36套，像我的選區蘆洲其實有一套固定設置在中山一路，可是你知道，我是受害者，曾經在我們蘆洲，不曉得有人是不是超跑的愛用者，他很準時在半夜十二點以後才開出門，好像好的車沒有開出去飆一下不太像超跑，所以他半夜十二點以後才開出去飆，我知道它不是我家樓下那一條路，是還有一段距離的大條四線道馬路……"],["薛部長富盛：但是你們都聽得到。"],["林委員淑芬：不是我們的社區，不是我們的街廓，整條馬路半個蘆洲都知道半夜十二點以後有人開超跑在飆車，其實在那裡，你說臨時發現了，你沒有設定固定的，你用移動的聲音照相設備來，結果已經跑掉了……"],["薛部長富盛：來不及，跑了。"],["林委員淑芬：這種狀況，第一個不是患不均而已，也患寡。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["林委員淑芬：這麼多年來，你投資三十億元，你說噪音對人體身心健康的影響很大，可是這麼多年只有投資30億元，其實是遠遠不足的，老實說，真的造成我們很大的困擾，我們就是受害者，所以其實從量來講、從法制面，你對噪音的規範，夜間白天的規範不一，這個當然要有落差，早期的人會說「地靈輕」，晚上夜深人靜的30分貝跟白天的30分貝差很多。法制面也要檢討，執行面也要檢討，設備有法也沒用！你沒有測速、測音，還有照相設備，沒用！工欲善其事，必先利其器，我想部長你剛才有回應了。","但我今天主要不談這個，我談空污，有關深坑的大火，就是7,000顆鋰電池的倉庫，在臺北市區、在新北市區，其實造成很大的影響，後來我們蘆洲、五股的隔壁叫林口，林口南亞的塑膠廠也燒了兩、三天，後來又是淡水的泡棉廠，後來又有樹林的木材廠，泡棉跟塑膠廠的風險危害對我們來講，我們很直覺的反應就是應該有一定的程度，可是我今天要講的是從深坑這個案例，因為它受到非常高大且影響層面很廣、關注度很高的狀況，我先來討論。當時7,000顆鋰電池這樣堆置燃燒的時候，你們木柵空品測站的資料顯示，到了隔一天，你們的數據是PM2.5相較於其他測站明顯升高，但是當時雙北的環保局都表示，空氣品質仍在普通範圍內，有升高但品質仍在普通範圍內，這樣的結果跟我們民眾普遍的感受有很大的落差。","我今天要講的是法制面問題，還有執行面，法制面問題就是對於空污防制法，我們於2018年修法時在裡面放了一個很重要的概念，也就是把環境知情權放到空污防制裡面。因為我們當時在空污防制法第三十三條放了第一項，公私場所的固定污染源因突發事故，大量排放空污時，負責人應採取緊急應變措施，而且還有限時間，最慢1個小時內要通知直轄市或縣（市）主管機關。第二，前項情形，直轄市、縣（市）主管機關政府要令公私場所採取必要措施，或得令其停止該固定污染源的操作以外，還要發布空氣品質惡化警告及採取因應措施。其實我們當初修法是已經授權給你們了，也授權給地方政府了，發生這種事情要趕快發布空氣品質惡化警告及採取因應措施，第三十三條第四項還規定惡化警告發布通知方式和因應措施，還有突發事故的緊急應變計畫應記載內容、執行辦法由中央主管機關定之。你們當然就定出來了，你們定出了「空氣污染突發事故緊急應變措施計畫及警告通知作業辦法」，這是你們的子法。","可惜的是你們的子法裡面講到經中央主管機關指定應公告設置空污防制專責單位或人員的公私場所，你們限縮了，你們把這些公私場所限縮在你們所指定公告的這些範圍，不管是行業、製程或物質，才需要設置防制單位。固定污染源的操作許可證要登載的製程、儲槽、產品種類，你們要求使用附表所列的空污突發事故管制物質，並應擬定空污突發事故緊急應變措施計畫，空污措施計畫要報請地方政府核定後確切執行。你們有要求應變計畫、警告措施等等，但是限縮在於你們指定的公告業別、製程或產業，或是我剛剛講的物質，你們限縮了，我為什麼講這個？你們應設置空污專責單位或專責人員及健康風險評估人員的公告條件在那裡，但是以深坑7,000顆鋰電池大火來講，這個影響這麼大、空氣品質這麼糟的狀況裡面，它是不是你們公告應該要設置的範圍，是不是在你們緊急應變措施計畫及警告通知作業應提出的廠商裡面，它是不是？"],["薛部長富盛：跟林委員報告，事實上它不是，因為深坑的案子事實上是一個產品倉庫。"],["林委員淑芬：對啊！我知道是它的倉庫，所以它根本就沒有在你們管制的範圍內，而空污防制法第三十三條並沒有限縮在你們所管制的製程，你們所管制的行業別裡面，沒有！我們的母法裡面是規定要有環境知情權，不管哪一種污染源突發事故，大量排放空污時，負責人要採取緊急應變措施，最慢1個小時要通報給地方主管機關，公私場所業者也必須要停止該固定污染源的操作，而且要發布惡化警報，我們的母法是長這樣子，但是你的辦法限縮了。"],["薛部長富盛：我們來檢討。"],["林委員淑芬：你們限縮了，但是像深坑這個案子，你們也不是沒有辦法，你們有一個空污突發事故通報與緊急應變標準作業流程的SOP，但是這個SOP只是一個內規，也沒有法律明文規定，也不是辦法，是吧？"],["薛部長富盛：跟林委員報告，事實上在深坑這個案子發生之後，後續幾個案子的情況處理，地方政府環保局馬上就會跟民眾反映，深坑這個案子事實上的確造成很大民怨。"],["林委員淑芬：事實上，深坑這個案子我們非常不能接受，你知道原因在哪裡嗎？因為大火煙霧臭味瀰漫大半個雙北，但是新北市市長第一時間出來說沒有測到戴奧辛，我問你戴奧辛要幾天才檢查得出來？"],["薛部長富盛：一個禮拜。"],["林委員淑芬：那他怎麼可能馬上第一時間說沒有測到戴奧辛，要一個禮拜才檢查得出來，他怎麼可以這樣子？為什麼雙北兩市的環保局人員用手持式的測試器，在火場周圍還有下方處做檢驗，現場風速只有2.3M/S，還有電子鼻的讀值是零，他們說多功能氣體偵測儀偵測起來都是零，檢測的項目只有什麼，部長知道嗎？只有一氧化碳、硫化氫、有機氣體。手持式偵測器的數值都是零，因為它偵測的目標是一氧化碳、硫化氫、有機氣體，當然就沒有測到啊！但是深坑大火燒掉的是電話、耳機，最多的是鋰電池，而這裡面有很多的聚氯乙烯（PVC）或是銅，很可能產生戴奧辛和氟化氫，而他們用手持式的偵測器在案發現場檢測，這樣的方法是對的嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上是太過武斷，用手持式的去測說確定沒有戴奧辛。"],["林委員淑芬：那一台手持式的就沒有戴奧辛檢測的項目，戴奧辛必須在實驗室進行化驗，沒有辦法用這一台機器馬上檢測，所以第一時間市長告訴我們現場沒有戴奧辛是根本連測都沒測就隨便說說。我要講的是制度面，針對複合性的火災災害，你們應該要訂出監測方法，到底怎麼樣的採樣才是有代表性的，你們要規範吧？"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["林委員淑芬：你是要在靠近火場的擴散煙流的原始濃度，持手持式的在火場旁邊測，還是應該在火場下風處、上風處，不同的距離會有數值的差異，污染物的濃度包含粒狀物、酸性氣體、戴奧辛、重金屬、揮發性有機氣體等，要進行定性分析，還有各種物質的濃度監測，然後去模式模擬各種影響的可能範圍。而且最重要的是，你們都只是在靠近地面或是輕微影響的地方測，根本不具代表性，它可能還必須監測高空濃度，所以高空濃度的測站要怎麼設，測站的內容又是什麼？讓民眾安心的不是一句符合標準就可以了，難怪臺北市市長也在生氣。","存在環境當中的污染物質是什麼、濃度多少，你要真實揭露環境的資訊，而且要把這個資訊完整地傳遞給我們受影響區域內的民眾，當污染持續擴散或擴大影響的時候，民眾要採取防護措施，減少民眾在不知情的狀況下受到傷害，這才是環境治理最重要的危害預警責任。而我今天要告訴你，以深坑的大火為例，在附近300公尺就有3間安養中心和護理之家，這一群體質敏感脆弱的老人家，不要忘記，在你們的SOP裡面還有一個危害評估，但是你們的危害評估沒有任何規範，到底在幾個小時要做出危害評估的規範，這些老人家或是學校的學生都是靠我是深坑人、我是臺北人、我是哪裡人，靠社群軟體的壓力來讓你們施政，然後來採取應變措施，這太離譜了！"],["主席：林委員，因為時間的關係，等一下牛煦庭委員質詢完要處理臨時提案。"],["林委員淑芬：可是我這個制度面的事情還沒講完，因為他真的太離譜啦！"],["主席：對，我們請部長會後……"],["林委員淑芬：我們重大空污的定義跟量化指標，部長你要好好地檢討，第一線環保局人員根本沒有辦法明確地判斷是不是已經達到空污突發事故通報緊急應變的時機，而你的危害評估淪為紙上作業，而且沒有具體的應踐行的步驟、行政程序，也沒有時間規範，所以難以達到緊急應變的功效，導致你這個危害評估有可能事實上是淪為紙上作業。"],["薛部長富盛：我們再來檢討。"],["主席：是不是請部長會後再跟林委員這邊補充說明？"],["林委員淑芬：對不對？你們的空污突發事故通報緊急應變措施這一些，以深坑大火為例，新北市有沒有通報？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上中央跟地方是一起合作的，執行面大概是……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，因為它不是你們公告應設置緊急應變措施計畫還有緊急通知作業辦法內規定的產業，但是民眾檢舉事情發生以後，地方政府也應該要通報，而且還要通報到中央來，這件事情有沒有通報？"],["薛部長富盛：沒有。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有？"],["薛部長富盛：隔天。"],["林委員淑芬：隔天早上有嗎？我看新聞報導說好像好多天以後還說沒有通報，連通報都沒有，緊急應變措施是業者的責任，但危害評估是地方政府的責任，危害評估沒有具體的規範、沒有時程的規範，這淪為紙上作業，部長，還有很多要檢討的，可是制度面、法制面要檢討啦！"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["林委員淑芬：我看只能留給下一任的部長了吧？還是你在這一個月內可以具體的霹靂手段，馬上檢討，可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：這個是沉痾已久的問題的話……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有空窗期，這一個月馬上要求……"],["薛部長富盛：我們來努力看看。"],["林委員淑芬：可以嗎？業管單位可以嗎？一個月內寫出檢討報告。"],["張司長順欽：可以。"],["林委員淑芬：書面檢討報告？可以？好，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝林委員。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員。接下來請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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我要講的是法制面的問題還有執行面也有 法制面的問題就是說2018年我們對這個空污防治法裡面我們2018年的修法放了一個很重要的概念就是說環境知情權要放到空污防治裡面"},{"start":276.138,"end":295.836,"text":"因為這個空污防治第33條我們當時就放了第一項公司場所的固定污染源因突發事故大量排放空污時負責人應採取緊急應變措施而且還有限時時間最慢一個小時內要通知直轄市或縣市儲管機關第二"},{"start":298.839,"end":317.591,"text":"這些狀況呢主管機關、縣市政府、直轄市政府除了他要令公司、場所採取必要的措施或得令其停止該固定污染源的操作以外還要發布空氣品質惡化的警告還要採取因應措施"},{"start":318.812,"end":331.186,"text":"那其實我們在講當初修法是說我已經授權給你們了也授權給地方政府了有發生這種事情要趕快發布空氣品質惡化警告及採取因應措施但是呢我們33條裡面的第4項還講說"},{"start":338.575,"end":362.376,"text":"這裏面的二話的警告發布通知方式和因應措施還有這個突發事故的緊急應變計畫應記載的內容執行辦法還是要給中央主管機關去定那你們當然就定出來了你們定出了一個叫突發事故的緊急應變措施計畫及警告通知的作業辦法這是你們的執法"},{"start":363.581,"end":379.844,"text":"可惜你們的執法裡面講到說啊經中央主管機關指定應公告設置空污防治的專責單位或人員的公司場所你們限縮了你們把這一些公司場所"},{"start":380.365,"end":386.692,"text":"先說在你們所指定公告的這一些不管是行業或是製程或是物質裡面你們才需要設置這個防治單位"},{"start":395.322,"end":412.955,"text":"他們的固定污染源的操作許可證要登載的製成除草產品種類那你們要求說使用付表所列的空污突發事故的管制物質或者是應擬定的空污突發事故緊急應變措施計畫或者是這個就是空污措施計畫要報請地方政府核定後確切的執行所以你們限定了你們有要求應變計畫"},{"start":424.504,"end":439.928,"text":"然後這個警告措施等等但是限縮在於公告你們的這個指定的這個公告的列別裡面製程啦或是產業或是我剛剛講的物質限縮了那我為什麼講這個你看"},{"start":444.608,"end":464.323,"text":"你們應公告的應設置空污專責單位或專責人員及健康風險評估人員的公告條件在那裡但是呢以深坑7000顆鋰電池影響這麼大、空氣品質這麼糟的狀況裡面它是不是你們公告應該要設置的這個"},{"start":467.085,"end":476.707,"text":"而範圍然後是在你們的緊急應變措施計畫應提出還有警告通知作業應有的這個而廠商裡面他們是不是"},{"start":477.986,"end":506.358,"text":"給林委員報告,事實上他不是因為深根那個案子,它事實上是一個產品倉庫啊我知道,倉庫啊所以它根本就沒有在你們管制的範圍內而我們空戶防治法的第33條並沒有限縮限縮在你們所管制的製程啦你們所管制的行業別裡面,我們沒有我們是講說,我們的母法裡面是講說要有環境知情權"},{"start":507.698,"end":536.493,"text":"不管哪一種污染源突發事故大量排放空污時就負責人要採取緊急應變措施最慢一個小時要通報給主管機關地方主管機關然後公司主管機場所業者也必須要停止該固定污染源的操作而且要發布惡化警報這樣子你們母法是長這樣子而你執法你的是辦法限縮了"},{"start":539.073,"end":559.687,"text":"因為我們來檢討齁你們先說了但是像撐坑這個你們也不是沒有也不是沒有辦法但你們有一個辦法叫空污突發事故的通報案及應變的標準作業流程的SOP但這個SOP只是一個內規也沒有法律明文規定也不是辦法"},{"start":561.101,"end":578.632,"text":"是吧給林委員報告事實上深耕這個案子發生之後你看後續的幾個案子情況處理的就就是說地方政府的環保局馬上就會這個跟民眾反映深耕這個事實上的確造成很大民怨深耕這個案子我們非常不能接受你知道原因在哪裡嗎"},{"start":579.912,"end":593.358,"text":"他這個大火煙霧臭味瀰漫大半個雙北但是新北市市長第一時間出來說沒有測到戴奧辛那我問你戴奧辛要幾天才檢查的出來"},{"start":596.208,"end":597.929,"text":"為什麼雙北兩市的環保局人員他們在用手持式的測試器在火場周圍還有下方處做檢驗"},{"start":614.104,"end":616.367,"text":"現場的風速只有2.3m一秒還有這個電子鼻的毒質是零多功能的氣體偵測儀他們說偵測起來都是零檢測的項目只有什麼你知道嗎那個部長"},{"start":632.406,"end":645.532,"text":"只有一氧化碳、硫化氫、有機氣體他手持式的偵測器他說數值都是零因為他偵測的目標是一氧化碳、硫化氫、有機氣體當然是沒有測到啊"},{"start":649.264,"end":667.362,"text":"但是深耕大火燒掉的是電話耳機最多的是鋰電池而這裏面有很多的聚氯乙烯、PVC或者是銅可能產生代奧辛氮氟化氫而他們用手持式的在案發現場測這個是這樣的方法是對的嗎?"},{"start":671.88,"end":694.012,"text":"事實上是太過武斷去用手持式的就是說確定說沒有帶耗芯這個是他那一台手持式的就沒有帶耗芯檢測的項目啊帶耗芯必須在實驗室進行化驗沒有辦法用這一台機器就馬上檢測所以第一時間市長告訴我們說現場沒有帶耗芯是根本連測都沒測"},{"start":695.543,"end":709.204,"text":"然後就隨便說說那我要講的是我是要講制度面當然就是複合性的火災災害你們應該定出監測的方法到底怎麼樣的採樣才是有代表性的要規範吧"},{"start":711.483,"end":739.582,"text":"是你是要再靠近火場的擴散煙流的原始濃度呢?今天首次試走火場變壓測呢?還是應在火場下風處、上風處不同的距離、數值的差異、污染物的濃度還要包含粒狀物、酸性氣體、帶奧辛重金屬、非化性有機物等要進行定性的分析還有各種物質的濃度的監測然後去模式模擬各種影響的可能範圍而且"},{"start":741.563,"end":759.685,"text":"最重要是你們這個都只是靠近地面或是輕微影響的地方策根本不具代表性他可能還必須這個高空的濃度所以我們其實有時候講說你的高空濃度你的策戰你要怎麼設你這些東西你策戰的內容又是什麼"},{"start":761.235,"end":777.804,"text":"所以讓民眾安心的不是一句符合標準就可以了所以難怪台北市市長也在生氣那我們講說存在環境當中它的污染物質是什麼濃度多少你要真實揭露環境的資訊而且要把這個資訊完整的傳遞給我們受影響區域內的民眾當污染持續擴散或擴大影響的時候我們要民眾要採取防護措施啊"},{"start":788.67,"end":806.34,"text":"那減少民眾在不知情的狀況下受到傷害啊 這個才是環境治理最重要的危害預警的責任而我今天要告訴你以深坑的大火為例 你知道嗎 在它附近300公尺就有3000安養中心和護理之家"},{"start":807.421,"end":818.933,"text":"然後這一群體質敏感脆弱的老人家你們有啟動了這個不要忘記喔 這個裡面你們的SOB裡面還有一個叫做危害評估"},{"start":821.994,"end":842.093,"text":"你們的危害評估的沒有任何的規範到底什麼時候要做出幾個小時要規範要做出危害評估的規範然後讓老人家或者是學校的學生然後都是靠我是深坑人啊我是台北人啊我是哪裡人啊靠社群軟體的壓力來讓你們施政然後來採取應變措施的這太離譜了"},{"start":848.019,"end":862.193,"text":"因為時間的關係等下到牛許廷委員質詢完要處理可是我這個制度面的事情還沒講完因為他真的太離譜了我們的重大空污的定義跟量化指標部長你要好好的檢討"},{"start":863.354,"end":883.063,"text":"第一線環保局的人員根本沒有辦法明確的判斷是不是已經達到空污突發事故通報緊急應變時的這個時機而你的危害評估淪於紙上作業而且沒有具體的應見型的步驟行政程序也沒有時間規範所以難以達到這個緊急應變的功效"},{"start":889.005,"end":909.516,"text":"所以有可能說你這個危害評估事實上是淪語指上作業啦是不是請部長會後再跟林委員這邊補充說明對不對你們的在你們的空污突發事故通報緊急影片措施這一些以深耕蕩瓦來為例啊新北市有沒有通報"},{"start":910.785,"end":932.433,"text":"有沒有通報?沒有啊,因為他不是你們公告應設置緊急應變措施計劃還有緊急通知作業辦法內規定的產業但是呢,當他們民眾檢舉事情發生以後地方政府也應該要通報而且要通報到中央來,這個事情有沒有通報?沒有"},{"start":935.834,"end":949.764,"text":"昨天早上有嗎?我看新聞報導好像好多天以後還說沒有通報連通報都沒有緊急應變措施是業者的責任但危害評估是地方政府的責任危害評估沒有具體的規範沒有實証的規範"},{"start":952.566,"end":979.38,"text":"在輪雨組上作業啦,保定還有很多要檢討的可是制度面、法制面要檢討啦但是只能留給下一任的部長了吧我看還是你在這一個月內可以具體的霹靂手段馬上檢討,可以嗎這個是成科已久的問題的話沒有空裝級這一個月馬上要求我們來努力看看啦可以嗎"},{"start":980.765,"end":981.065,"text":"林淑芬委員"}]}},{"id":"151554","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151554","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3368224091b9cc5671ff397fd65b575a832dcb4691eb09bf4e2d074087a6b2f41335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:32:10 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Transportation Authority聯絡，詢問理立參加他們的計畫，請問參加的狀況是什麼？結果主委你知道我得到的回復是什麼嗎？這是錯的，這個是虛偽不實的，This is false，這個公司跟他們4個自駕車的系統沒有任何契約關係，也沒有參與。我們能夠進軍國際市場是好事，但是拿在外國捏造的理由，臺灣政府還頒獎給它，這就是天大的笑話！結果它拿著這個獎的光環，做了什麼事情？在國內拿了一堆補助，結果自駕車在臺南的計畫終止，臺中的終止，都拿了好幾千萬，現在臺鐵的行控4.0，就我掌握到的狀況，連你們自己運安會都砲聲隆隆，對於它的專業性、可行性、安全性、跟現在的系統是不是重疊、能不能夠增加輔助的功能全面批判，我就有興趣了，如果是全面批判的話，花了六千多萬到底是在慷誰之慨？主席站起來了，我尊重主席。請主委裁示會後請運安會從專業的角度，針對臺鐵行控4.0到底有沒有用、還是亂花錢，提出運安會的書面報告，可以嗎？"],["林主任委員信得：可以，沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：多久？1個禮拜可不可以？研究很久了，我全部都整理完了，臺鐵把列控4.0當萬靈丹，運安會的回復是批判一堆，根本沒用啊！1個禮拜可不可以？"],["主席：主委，1週內有沒有問題？"],["林主任委員信得：好，1個禮拜、1週內。"],["黃委員國昌：這件事情要追究責任，6,000萬怎麼花的？"],["主席：再請1週內主委提供給黃國昌委員及交通委員會的委員。"],["黃委員國昌：政治人物可以這樣圖利自己、支持自己的廠商喔？胡搞瞎搞！謝謝。"],["林主任委員信得：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","請楊瓊瓔委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-8","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","林沛祥","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","游顥","林倩綺","洪孟楷","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","張啓楷","黃健豪","黃仁"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 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Transportation Authority聯絡"},{"start":296.976,"end":318.09,"text":"說欸這個李立啊參加你們的請問參加的狀況是什麼結果主委你知道我得到的回覆是什麼嗎這是錯的這個是虛偽不實的This is false這個公司啊跟我們市的這個自駕車的系統沒有任何契約關係也沒有參與結果我們能夠進軍國際市場是好事啊"},{"start":324.417,"end":337.828,"text":"拿在外國捏造的理由台灣政府還頒獎給他這就是天大的笑話結果拿了這個獎的關懷拿了什麼事情在國內拿了一堆補助"},{"start":339.302,"end":360.122,"text":"結果自駕車臺南的宗旨臺中的宗旨都拿了好幾千萬現在台鐵的這個行控4.0連你們自己運安會啊我掌握到的狀況炮聲隆隆啊對他的專業性可行性安全性跟現在的系統是不是重疊"},{"start":361.636,"end":388.015,"text":"能不能夠增加輔助的功能全面批判那我就有興趣啦如果是全面批判的話花了6千多萬到底是在扛誰之愷啊主席站起來了我尊重主席啊請主席會後從運安會專業的角度排鐵行控4.0到底有沒有用還是亂花錢提出運安會的書面報告可以嗎"},{"start":389.141,"end":389.161,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151552","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151552","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c33634a228973c49ebeef397fd65b575a832dcb4691eb09bf4e276d6fe535e5dfa9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:17:07 - 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主委本席要特別跟您就ADAS先進駕駛輔助系統也就是我們所謂的自動駕車系統這樣子的一個事故來跟你做討論喔台灣跟其他國家最大的一個不同在你的報告裡面有寫到是什麼針對這個自動駕駛輔助系統"},{"start":31.494,"end":38.817,"text":"各位 如果你這樣回答的話本席蠻遺憾的喔代表你可能到現在還沒有進入狀況還不了解說真實的原因台灣跟其他歐美國家最大的不同是因為我們有所謂的緩撞車"},{"start":61.021,"end":84.517,"text":"那緩撞車就也是俗稱的蠍子車好像是很多的這種自動駕駛輔助系統會沒有辦法判定也因此有造成很多的狀況是高速公路上後面的自動駕駛系統直接撞上緩撞車去年總共有幾件這種緩撞車在國道上被撞的事件您知道嗎有三"},{"start":87.711,"end":107.113,"text":"三百四十七件那有幾件疑似是使用自動駕駛輔助系統事實上三百四十七件裡面有五十趴是三百四十七件裡有百分之大概有一半他是車子本身有裝ADAS的然後裝ADAS那一部分有大概有五十二趴左右齁"},{"start":108.513,"end":126.498,"text":"他當時是有開的對所以有一半以上對不對對三百多件有一半以上就是將近快兩百件是用這種自動駕駛輔助系統然後有撞的那你今天的報告在第三頁第四點裡面也提到其中一個案例就去年的11月30號"},{"start":128.038,"end":142.02,"text":"自用小客車在國道1號北上的路段因為造成前面的工程緩撞車的一個撞上然後12月開始來做一個調查今年7月會了解事實的資料報告"},{"start":143.379,"end":157.433,"text":"本席其實跟交通委員會在過去在去年也就已經有討論緩撞車被撞的事故為什麼因為這一年有一兩百件啊你剛剛自己也親自承認了一年有一兩百件所以這問題大不大本席認為蠻大的"},{"start":158.934,"end":187.456,"text":"如果說一年有一兩百件的話那代表是說這樣的一個事故不是單一而是可能各廠牌的自動下車輔助系統對於這個緩撞車都很難辨認那很多人都已經提出來甚至媒體都有報導了那我們現在想問因為去年的代理主委有講是說車輛管理範圍在交通部啊馬上被批評之後又講是說會收集相關資料跟交通部來盤點法規那我想請教現在運安會到底有沒有在做這一件事情"},{"start":189.17,"end":195.239,"text":"要檢討到什麼時候?要什麼時候開始檢討?什麼時候才能夠真真正正讓國人了解到?"},{"start":206.792,"end":216.783,"text":"因為你們現在運輸安全調查委員會立案調查但是天天上國道的這些承包商在緩衝車上面施工的人員緩撞車前面施工的人員還是提心吊膽啊為什麼會有緩撞車"},{"start":223.257,"end":239.71,"text":"是因為以前在國道上面施工的人員他其實施工來講非常的緊張那後來造成很多的這種車輛的一個致命的狀況之後交通部大夢初醒才覺得說哇真的很嚴重所以才強制國道施工要有緩撞車這邊來"},{"start":241.852,"end":269.086,"text":"保護施工人員的安全那就沒有想到因為緩撞車的一個出現然後現在有自動駕駛輔助系統反而很多的駕駛者他可能便宜行事或說他可能沒有遵守這個使用規定當然這個是駕駛的責任我們予以追究但是重點在於是說會不會現在有個盲點就是自動駕駛的輔助系統確實沒有辦法辨認出緩撞車也導致於說他完全沒有減速就直接撞上去那一年已經有一兩百件"},{"start":270.006,"end":297.844,"text":"可能疑似自動下車服務系統的狀況那我們到底什麼時候要解決我所知道交通部已經在研議已經在討論A大市車輛的一些什麼的管理不是他們已經開了三次會不過我認為這個太慢了對重點是太慢了還有都還不季節還有每天國道都還在施工那還有重點在於是你覺得這個越南會沒有責任嗎我覺得這個越南會才有重大責任為什麼一年有一兩百件"},{"start":299.363,"end":326.416,"text":"一兩百件這個車直接撞上去那這每一個車可能都是一個重大的一個車禍重大人命事故我跟委員報告我們今年6月4日這個報告出來之後我們就會緊鑼密鼓會還有半年時間我會跟交通部開會跟他講說我會不會太慢主委這已經哇主委你敢說我不敢聽拜託你真的你這句話我拜託你收斷去真的不要"},{"start":328.656,"end":350.942,"text":"對不要吸皮笑臉我很實在話講本席今天為什麼會在這裡在這質詢就是因為媒體已經報導而且國內大家也看到台灣跟其他國家比較不一樣為什麼其他國家沒有這種撞上就是因為這個蠍子車在其他國家可能比較沒有這樣的一個車型那會不會是這些車商的這個雷達裡面沒有判讀這個車子"},{"start":352.537,"end":379.648,"text":"那除了說找這些車商幾大智慧車、電動車的這個車商來去做討論說是不是應該要把這樣的一個車型納入他們的行車電腦裡面去做判斷找他們來喝咖啡但是現在還沒有一個強制力那本席也想了解或說國人大家也想了解說到底是不是這樣的原因那以及每年都會發生你剛剛自己講的數據都有200件左右的這種直接追撞的事故"},{"start":381.11,"end":382.251,"text":"主委本席特別要求特別要求第三頁"},{"start":404.4,"end":418.238,"text":"你第4點已經講了今年7月事實資料要報告還明年5月才完成最終調查報告現在4月然後你跟我講明年5月完成最終調查報告"},{"start":419.642,"end":420.322,"text":"請提供書面給所有本會委員"},{"start":443.046,"end":443.286,"text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員"}]}},{"id":"151551","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151551","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336b78c0c99fc5f8cdb97e999b50eca937cdcb4691eb09bf4e248bf7fb5696d4c0f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"11:29:29 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11:35:53","影片長度":"00:06:24","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計8案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計1案。\n三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。\n四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案。）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-13"},"duration":384,"end_time":"2024-04-22T11:35:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T11:29:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":652,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（11時29分）謝謝主席，請行政院李孟諺秘書長，還有個人資料保護委員會籌備處李主任。"],["李秘書長孟諺：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：秘書長，針對個資保護委員會籌備業務今天凍結了50萬，我們知道過去個人資料保護法在去年5月修法明定主管機關，法案三讀通過後，籌備處已於去年12月5日正式成立，至於正式掛牌，還要到114年8月才掛牌成立。請問秘書長，時間那麼冗長，針對個人資料保護法，因為現在打詐真的是我們的重中之重，所以針對這個業務上個資的保護，這一定要趕快上路，不然打詐這個問題就沒辦法那麼快速地去處理、去解決，是不是請秘書長來說明，114年8月才掛牌成立，這樣時間是不是會拖很長？"],["李秘書長孟諺：跟委員報告，雖然它目前是籌備處的型態，但其實目前籌備處就可以執行一些相關的業務，所以對於部會的協調、督導，甚至相關的行政處理，目前它就可以執行，不用等到正式掛牌。細節部分，我是不是請籌備處的主任來跟您報告？"],["吳委員琪銘：據本席這邊的資料，籌備處的組員過去編制是89人，但是目前的預算員額才36人，差額還是蠻大的，在人員不足的情形下，有辦法順利去推動、去配合，讓各單位可以去執行，這是我們未來一定要趕快著手的部分。請主任來報告。"],["李主任世德：跟委員報告，剛剛講到打詐的部分，現階段涉及到有關於個資外洩的議題，行政院現行就已經有一個有關於個人資料保護執行的聯繫會議，我們現在是這個會議的幕僚機關，透由這樣一個平台，我們會整合現有中央目的事業主管機關來進行規管，非公務機關個人資保護業務的這部分，我們會透由這個平台繼續加強督導。","另外，剛剛委員也質詢到現有人數，89人是預算員額，目前人事總處是跟我們說，36人是先給我們今年去做發展的現有人數，但是未來會依照我們業務的開展繼續往上再請增擴大……"],["吳委員琪銘：好的，本席想說是不是可以把時間縮短，趕快把它掛牌成立……"],["李主任世德：我們會儘速往這個方向努力。"],["吳委員琪銘：最主要是因為現在的打詐，跨部會大家都開始在積極地推動，因為現在詐騙集團真的是魔高一丈，連聲音的辨識──因為有的是從個資流到外面，變成現在可以用AI科技那種辨識來詐騙，曾經有一個詐騙對象就是用AI辨識聲音來榨取他的金額，所以這一點我們一定要趕快。"],["李主任世德：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：再來我再請秘書長。"],["李秘書長孟諺：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：秘書長，首先恭喜你。我還是比較關心我的轄區，早期在行政院、交通部大家的支持下，讓我們地方上的推動，不管是金城交流道，不管是未來的65延伸，都得以順利進行。關於65延伸，我也跟秘書長報告，公共工程會吳澤成、相關單位以及高公局大家開了很多會議，好不容易才拍板，秘書長，未來這個65延伸要拜託秘書長共同來推動，以解決短程距離的塞車問題。"],["李秘書長孟諺：關於65延伸，包括整個大漢溪兩岸是不是有快速道路的規劃，也就是板龍快速道路，我想這個部分已經開始著手在做可行性的規劃，我們希望能夠儘速地來推動，讓往來龍潭、樹林、三峽還有土城到板橋的民眾的交通能夠更加順暢，我們也把這個列在整個區塊，就是北北基桃整個重要的交通動脈裡面的重要一環。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，因為當初我在總質詢時，包括行政院，包括交通部部長，他們的允諾是土城到三峽為優先階段，因為要有優先階段，後面才能推動到大溪、龍潭，所以是不是能夠照當初行政院長他們的考量來配合推動？"],["李秘書長孟諺：因為這一段是人口最密集、交通量也最大的，所以在整個裡面會列為最優先的段落。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝，那我就放心了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳琪銘召委。","再來請黃國昌委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-13","speakers":["吳琪銘","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃建賓","丁學忠","高金素梅","張智倫","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","黃國昌","麥玉珍","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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還有土城到板橋這邊的民眾"},{"start":329.321,"end":329.661,"text":"報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":342.092,"end":345.275,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":361.491,"end":363.251,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲"}]}},{"id":"151550","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151550","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c33615328befa477310097e999b50eca937cdcb4691eb09bf4e2672f50a45871b9275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"11:20:33 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陳議員,請問陳院長,是不是他已經快要卸任了,所以他現在講的話已經都不算數了?我想經費是一定要來協助災區的重建。至於他是用特別預算還是用最佳一般型的預算,我想最重要是這個錢能夠趕快的省過。"},{"start":132.745,"end":156.764,"text":"那我再請教一下秘書長就是您剛剛講的這樣應該透過追加檢或是遺緩季節的錢就足夠使用嗎?遺緩季節是先馬上應急不用等到預算通過那追加檢通過後這些遺緩季節的錢就可以歸掉那我們現在的法定預算數除了災害準備金20億然後第二這個準備金有74億之外應該還有一個特別同儲分配稅款的大概240億左右"},{"start":158.826,"end":178.594,"text":"那因為依據中央統籌分類稅款分配辦法第12條規定特別統籌分類稅款經供應為支配受支配地方政府緊急及其他重大事項所需的淨費經主管機關報請行政院核定之後就可以通知受分配地方政府納入預算所以請問秘書長"},{"start":179.614,"end":205.624,"text":"有沒有讓地方政府申請緊急及其他重大事項所需的經費?像平常的各縣市政府如果遇到災害那麼他會搶災跟災害復建就是都用這個特別統籌款那另外還包括像各地方政府如果遇到傳染病的防治比如說南部之前有一些登革熱的問題那這些也都是用特統再來致應"},{"start":207.725,"end":225.463,"text":"所以平常就有受理地方政府的這個申請我們還是希望說針對這個部分就算是特別預算也應該要准結開支不可以腐爛的編列當然然後另外再請教您就是在這一次解凍的預算中第九目涉及的是行政院打詐經濟的措施問題但是目前就是詐騙的問題也越來越嚴重"},{"start":229.987,"end":258.407,"text":"甚至還爆發出行政院長提名的NCC委員蕭齊鴻他違反選轉門條例在卸任後就當詐騙集團的門神所以行政院長在提名之前難道都不針對提名人選做考核的嗎那蕭齊鴻整個的提名程序是由行政院提名當時也應該是您擔任秘書長帶領大家來立法院拜會各黨團的嗎所以這個是人民議黨一手推薦的人現在出了問題"},{"start":259.387,"end":262.109,"text":"總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":276.428,"end":291.494,"text":"我想消委員這樣的個人的行為目前我們也請相關的司法單位檢調單位在了解那麼如果有不法等等的情況就會依法來移送或是辦理那這個部分確實是"},{"start":295.576,"end":321.735,"text":"當時任委員的時候也都有經過一些相關的資料跟相關的查核那當時可能沒有發現他在卸任之後會有這樣的一個行為那這個部分我們表達也要檢討改進行政院一定要檢討那另外就是有關那我接下來謝謝民主黨我算是不是請那個不當黨產委委員會的林峰正主委"},{"start":326.536,"end":355.254,"text":"主委您剛剛在會前接受媒體的訪問的時候表示說國政基金會並沒有被認為是國民黨的覆水組織但是如果他沒有被認定為是國民黨的覆水組織為什麼國政基金會會被查封為什麼我們一些這個公部門的這個這個案子呢國政基金會都被封鎖甚至捐款呢也因為大家害怕被打查水表而不敢捐款"},{"start":355.674,"end":370.964,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":371.024,"end":372.545,"text":"議員會議中央政府總預算案"},{"start":394.503,"end":409.054,"text":"打垮最大在野黨就能長久執政所以執政黨產會就是執政黨追殺國民黨的筷子手所以您主委您剛在媒體之前說這些大言不慚的風涼話覺得非常非常的可恥"},{"start":414.439,"end":426.473,"text":"國政基金會確實沒有經過我們認定為國民黨的附隨組織,所以依法我們不可以去監管它,這完全沒有問題。至於說國政基金會為什麼收不到外界的捐款?"},{"start":427.674,"end":435.996,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。breviation of Prohibition of Prohibition of Prohibition of Prohibition"},{"start":452.961,"end":476.889,"text":"黨產會的追殺還是瘦極既往喔尤其是我們一些國民黨黨營事業都被你們認定為是不當的黨產所以打壓國民黨都判決決定因為這個司法的這個都是用你們說實在的司法現在都是聽這個民進黨黨產會的所以我們每一次都是只能透過行政救濟跟政府打官司可是到現在為止說實在"},{"start":478.877,"end":481.279,"text":"答案有關行政委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案"},{"start":497.492,"end":502.676,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。breviation"}]}},{"id":"151549","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151549","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3366df3cf6635da335bcff82116bdf94ca8dcb4691eb09bf4e273901da7dcf6c21b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"11:19:51 - 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是不是請薛部長請薛部長林委員好部長你好因為現行那個聲音照相科技執法遇到風速大的時候這個大於每秒5公尺為了避免爭議不予開罰那其實媒體報導部分縣市聲音照相科技執法告發率過低"},{"start":29.963,"end":56.479,"text":"反而以人力聯合稽查來攔檢來告發率則可以達到五成以上那為了瞭解聲音照相科技執法這個預算補助效益有關各縣市這個聲音照相科技執法告發成功率相較於這些環保局、警察局聯合人力稽查攔檢告發成功率那我是希望說"},{"start":57.908,"end":84.621,"text":"環境部應與相關單位提出書面資料給立委們做一個參考部長你的看法呢?可以因為我們來找出原因因為這種聲音還是需要透過科技執法它比較有一個對啦那本席是認為抓草不抓改那噪音車應該從源頭控管那改裝車"},{"start":86.382,"end":89.504,"text":"這噪音不得安寧,不管是聲音照相科技執法或是人力的攔截,難查。"},{"start":101.491,"end":122.795,"text":"都要雙管齊下給民眾一個安寧的生活環境本期是希望環境部與警政署應用聲音照相科技執法時遇到噪音車未懸掛車牌或使用撬牌器或偽造車牌警政署要協助揪出這類惡意歸併稽查的車輛要給民眾"},{"start":126.912,"end":142.645,"text":"反給他們一個生活的安寧部長你的看法我認同所以我們也朝著這個方向來做因為剛剛包括王委員也特別提到這個噪音已經是造成"},{"start":143.626,"end":144.647,"text":"市長,您的看法呢?"},{"start":174.947,"end":197.919,"text":"因為你今天要是配給警察每個警察都有機會來做這些噪音排放這些不管汽車、機車他們才會怕今天因為你們環保署檢測的就是路邊偶爾我差不多大概幾個月看一次而已其實那個"},{"start":199.861,"end":229.187,"text":"可以說沒有什麼效果啦所以說到處才都是這樣子部長你的看法勒林委員這個建議很好我想我接下來會責成我們部裡的同仁同事對啦應該要傳承啦也會鼓勵因為這個是很重要啊部長重視這個民怨啦民怨啦跟警察這個警政署以及跟交通部監理單位之間的一個合作部長我想"},{"start":230.447,"end":257.177,"text":"2050淨零排碳已是我國政府的目標以國內舉辦跨年活動為例全台合計的排碳量推估有高達3000噸以公股、航庫、臺灣銀行為例為落實環境永續減碳並於今年3月透過碳權底換完成信用卡"},{"start":258.49,"end":264.295,"text":"我非常認同各位有所謂的綠色金融的這一塊給林委員報告像金管會他們的探錢交易所去年這個8月7號在高雄成立"},{"start":277.446,"end":304.649,"text":"去年的12月底我們也第一次把國外的探泉品質好的引進到國內那國內的金融機構很多銀行也都去探購我是希望說環境部能夠率先做示範給這些部會辦活動的時候依循他的範本未來希望各部會舉辦大型活動因草擬探綜合計畫以達成這個活動探綜合你的看法呢?"},{"start":305.209,"end":331.904,"text":"完全認同現在很多大公司他們辦活動也都朝碳中和的方向在走最後一個議題隨著2050進行排碳政策推動未來可預期鋰電池廢氣量將大幅度的提升針對未來電動車和儲電系統的鋰電池淘汰和它的循環二次的再利用環境部相關規範是不是有準備好"},{"start":334.205,"end":355.983,"text":"謝謝林委員報告已經是李電池的回收已經是環境部支援這個循環署裡面重要的因為李電池回收在利用提煉貴金屬如何避免在回收過程中產生二次的污染本期提醒環境部要落實稽查避免廠商造假好不好謝謝林委員的建議謝謝林委員"}]}},{"id":"151548","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151548","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3367633742ee04f7496cff82116bdf94ca8dcb4691eb09bf4e2e339ddae18a2dfb35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:12:47 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11:19:44","影片長度":"00:06:57","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":417,"end_time":"2024-04-22T11:19:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T11:12:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":807,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時12分）謝謝主席，我們請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：李委員好！"],["李委員坤城：部長好！車輛噪音，其實大家都很重視，不論是在我們的都會區或是一般縣市，過去我在當議員的時候，其實就常常有這種檢舉案，可是這種檢舉案似乎很難成立，除非是固定式的……"],["薛部長富盛：對，沒有客觀的……"],["李委員坤城：移動式的，咻一下就過去了，可是這個聲音很吵，尤其是夜晚的時候，這個聲音都特別大。我先請問一下，有關於噪音的處罰標準，白天晚上有不一樣嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：有、有，它是有不同的。"],["李委員坤城：晚上有特別嚴格嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：是，特別是……"],["李委員坤城：分貝有不一樣嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：有、有、有。"],["李委員坤城：請教一下。"],["薛部長富盛：我們事實上是有分時段，還有分區域，不同的區域也會有不同的……"],["李委員坤城：對，我是說像晚上呢？"],["薛部長富盛：但是……"],["李委員坤城：我看到你們是說，在行駛中時速小於50的話超過86分貝，50到70的話是90分貝，才算是違規，這個是白天嗎？還是白天晚上都一樣？"],["薛部長富盛：車速的話應該是白天晚上都一樣啦！"],["李委員坤城：車速白天晚上都一樣？"],["薛部長富盛：對、對、對。"],["李委員坤城：那就沒有分嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["李委員坤城：所以我的意思是同樣的車速，比如50的話，早上是86分貝才違規，晚上也是86分貝才違規嗎？"],["張司長順欽：分貝數是一樣，但是罰額是不一樣，晚上會加倍處罰。"],["李委員坤城：晚上的分貝數有辦法降低嗎？"],["張司長順欽：再加嚴？"],["李委員坤城：對啊！因為其實白天與晚上的86是不一樣的感覺，對不對？當然我看你們夜間時段是裁罰會比較重……"],["薛部長富盛：李委員的建議很好，因為的確晚上的背景值也比較低……"],["李委員坤城：是啊！"],["薛部長富盛：所以分貝高一點，那種感受就很……"],["李委員坤城：就是白天的86與晚上的86是不一樣的，感受不一樣嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是，我覺得可以檢討。"],["李委員坤城：是不是？因為其實在夜間的住宅區，搞不好50分貝，你就覺得已經很吵了，可是你們還是定到86，所以我剛才才問，你們白天晚上標準有沒有不一樣？可是這樣問起來都是採一樣的86及90，這有沒有檢討的空間？"],["薛部長富盛：李委員，我們來檢討一下……"],["李委員坤城：好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：因為李委員剛剛講的是有道理的。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！不然大家都一樣，可是晚上一定不一樣，晚上60、70分貝，你就覺得很吵，搞不好不用那麼高就很吵，好不好？這個你們來檢討一下。"],["薛部長富盛：好，我們來檢討一下。"],["李委員坤城：好。第二個就是現在你們有固定式與移動式的科技執法210套……"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["李委員坤城：你們說預計在114年增加到306套，是不是？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["李委員坤城：所以增加大概100套左右，第一個、明年有辦法完成嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我們希望明年，本來是到116……"],["李委員坤城：這一套是多少錢？"],["薛部長富盛：什麼？"],["李委員坤城：這一套多少錢？"],["張司長順欽：大概100萬左右。"],["李委員坤城：都是中央付嗎？"],["張司長順欽：沒有，跟委員報告，目前是中央付一部分，地方要有配合款。"],["李委員坤城：比例是多少？"],["張司長順欽：比例依照各縣市的財政條件不同會有不同，像臺北……"],["李委員坤城：比如新北市呢？"],["張司長順欽：新北市是……"],["李委員坤城：大概，比如中央出多少？地方出多少？我的意思是當然現在我看你們給新北已經算是最多了，36套，可是我們新北很大，36套分一分，各區就分不到什麼，所以我就想這個如果100萬的話，我不知道是預算不夠還是怎麼樣，其實你明年多增加100套也是不夠，我們這個東西有很難生產出來嗎？"],["張司長順欽：其實這個設備都是進口，這個並不是國內可以生產……"],["李委員坤城：設備是進口的。"],["張司長順欽：對，因為這要到一級標準……"],["李委員坤城：是，可是它費用不高，老實講，100萬其實不高啦！"],["張司長順欽：跟委員報告，後面的操作維護還是要費用，並不是買了以後就不用再……"],["李委員坤城：好，那你們未來增加100套也是各一半嗎？移動式與固定式各一半嗎？"],["張司長順欽：跟委員報告，這個我想即便是固定的，也可以定期做移動……"],["李委員坤城：是啊！"],["張司長順欽：所以我們可能一個地方設置幾個月之後，陳情案件數有一些變化之後，就換一個地方……"],["李委員坤城：有時候我們民意代表會請地方環保局處理，就是有些路段我們覺得民眾常常在反映，可是他們就說那個不夠，就沒辦法過去用，所以我是覺得能夠增加再增加，我覺得100套其實也是不夠，是我們的預算不夠還是怎麼樣？"],["薛部長富盛：請李委員將來支持，因為……"],["李委員坤城：這個我一定支持，我是說是不是你們自己編的預算不夠還是怎麼樣，這是一回事啦！"],["薛部長富盛：因為當初沒有想到大家反應那麼正面……"],["李委員坤城：都很正面啊！"],["薛部長富盛：所以當初比較保守，現在……"],["李委員坤城：我是建議如果預算夠的話，因為現在還在編明年的預算，預算夠的話，我們來增加，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["李委員坤城：我最後一個再問，按照你們的資料，告發的輛次110年到113年3月有3,686件，可是真正裁罰的案件每一年好像才五百多件，110年、111年，我手中的資料才五百多件，為什麼告發的有三千多件，可是每一年抓起來才五百多件，這個落差在哪裡？"],["薛部長富盛：這個我們來瞭解一下好不好？這個……"],["李委員坤城：好不好？就是機動車輛的噪音，110到111年，每年都五百多件，可是你們告發的輛次有3,686件，這還是移動式的，還有固定式的七千多件，還有傳統攔檢也七千多件，那個比例差蠻多的耶！"],["薛部長富盛：李委員，我們是不是可以請李委員辦公室也把資料跟我們來勾稽比對一下……"],["李委員坤城：好啊！好啊！"],["薛部長富盛：看看這裡面落差到底在哪裡。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！對啊！因為落差還蠻多的……"],["薛部長富盛：對、對，我也覺得很難想像。"],["李委員坤城：就是有告發，但是後來真正裁罰的……"],["薛部長富盛：對啊！"],["李委員坤城：比例差蠻多的啊！"],["薛部長富盛：我覺得這個是有落差，必須把……"],["李委員坤城：好不好？你們去查一下，我們把資料給你們，你們再給我一個答案，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝李委員。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員。","現在先作以下宣告：在牛煦庭委員質詢結束，處理臨時提案。","現在請林德福委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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11:24:56","影片長度":"00:12:57","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-10"},"duration":777,"end_time":"2024-04-22T11:24:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T11:11:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":643,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（11時11分）主席、各位列席官員。主席，我想請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：部長好。先恭喜部長續任財政部部長。我想請教部長，上週財政委員會通過本席的臨時提案是一項便民的提案，讓受天災、地震的民眾書面審理的金額從十五萬提高至三十萬。自4月18日財政部開始這項政策，同時也發新聞稿表示，各區國稅局為協助受災民眾快速取得稽徵機關核發的災害損失證明，共同修訂提高個人災害損失書面審核金額為新臺幣三十萬；如果申報金額在三十萬以下，民眾只要於申報期限內填報個人災害損失申報表，國稅局就會以書面審查，不會再派員實地勘查；申請災害損失的受理期間從一個月延長到三個月。要先感謝部長有看到民眾受災後的不便，也修訂了這項26年來從來沒有提高的金額，請部長簡短向民眾宣布一下這項好消息，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：也謝謝委員的提點跟提案，這一次地震的災害，尤其在花蓮還有其他地區的一些民眾都受到財產上損失，當然也有部分人民身亡，這個確實是讓大家都很痛心。我們稅捐機關對於受災的損失，當然應該本著從寬、從速、從優的方式處理，因此對於書面審核的部分，原來是規定十五萬以下可以做書面審核，以上就要現場勘查，這一次我們就把它提高到三十萬，災害損失在三十萬以下都可以透過書面審核，相關舉證我們也儘量給予簡化，用照片或者也可以用網路上傳的方式。在申請期限的部分，原來是規定一個月，我們把它放寬到三個月，因為民眾受災以後，不管身心都有受到一些創痛，我們覺得應該把這個時間延長，讓他們有比較寬裕的時間申請所謂的災害損失，將來在稅的部分可以做一些減免，這個部分我想基於政府機關，我們都應該要這樣做，謝謝委員。"],["顏委員寬恒：好的，謝謝部長。今天審查娛樂稅法廢止案，娛樂稅法是屬於特種消費稅，與貨物稅、特種貨物及勞務稅，以及菸酒稅屬性相同。特種消費稅的課徵，在已經有一般消費稅或商品及服務稅的存在之下，難脫一頭牛被剝好幾層皮的負面評價。我想要請教部長，多年來有很多位立法委員在修法指出，娛樂稅、貨物稅、印花稅這三項不合時宜的稅制應該予以廢除，前行政院長蘇貞昌當時也曾主動提示要廢除，但是至今卻毫無進展，其中印花稅、娛樂稅，一年的稅收大約一百七十億元，是地方政府非常重要的稅收來源，地方政府認為這不應該刪除。當然地方政府的反對是因為中央政府如果能夠有相等的補足，或者是刪除的部分予以提供地方政府相等的稅額，這樣子的話其實地方政府是沒有反對的意見。我想請教部長，因為未來財政部還是由莊部長你在掌管，那財政部會不會在520前將娛樂稅法廢止？"],["莊部長翠雲：法律的廢止都必須經過立法院同意，剛剛委員也提到了幾項賦稅，第一個，印花稅的部分一年大概收入有一百七十億，對地方政府來說是一個非常重要的財源，我想這個部分已經說明，所以他們也不贊同要廢止。至於今天我們討論的娛樂稅部分，一年差不多十九億的收入，對地方來說，尤其是在縣裡面的鄉鎮，如果鄉鎮市收取的都是歸鄉鎮市，這個金額在中央也許看起來是這樣，但在地方來說它是一個非常重要的財源。同時地方也需要有財政自主的空間，並不是說我把它廢了，由中央給予補助，地方政府其實要有財政自主，讓它可以有一個自主的空間。其實對於娛樂稅這件事情，我們也召集了地方政府來開會，大家第一個就是反對廢止。","第二個，也就是在項目裡面，因為隨著社會經濟的變化以及娛樂行為越來越多元，就是在第二條的部分，項目可以調整。至於第五條是規定那個稅率的上限，其實目前來看他們都是沒有按照最高上限來收，而是都從低課收，也許這也可以做一些調整，我覺得這部分，大家都有這樣的一個看法。","另外，因為各地方政府的政策目的不同，它的經濟發展情況也不同，所以未來也是可以考量賦予地方政府一個停徵的權限，讓他們可以考慮一些實質鼓勵的對象，我想這個部分不廢止的情況下，依然可以做一些彈性的調整。"],["顏委員寬恒：從地方政府的角度來看，印花稅跟娛樂稅的部分如果停徵或者如果廢止，其損失平均大概是3%，可能對地方政府的財政會有一定的困難，但是確保在長期可以保本的情況之下，中央只要願意拿出國稅的0.5%來補足這一塊，確保財政上的保本，就這個部分部長怎麼看？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然以金額來看，委員們都有提到中央給予補助就好。但是對地方來說，它仍然希望有財政自主的空間。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是，那未來在經濟成長率還有物價上漲率，統籌分配款還有一般性補助款的部分，從這邊來做一個補助就可以解決這個問題，也避免因為重複課稅的問題，課稅的部分讓民眾認為自己被剝了好幾層皮。"],["莊部長翠雲：中央統籌分配稅款的話，它是就國稅部分的稅目，然後一定的比例去納入中央統籌分配稅款。目前中央統籌分配稅款再分配給地方政府的部分，它是用一定的公式來計算，如果娛樂稅廢止的話，也不會在中央統籌分配稅款裡面去做一些調整。"],["顏委員寬恒：謝謝部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["顏委員寬恒：接下來請金管會黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：主委好。保險法第一百七十七條的修正主要是針對保險業務員的勞動權益，攸關的不僅僅是保險業務員的權益，更是保戶的權益以及保障，同時能避免保險公司假承攬、真僱用，甚至於亂賣產保險產品。請教主委，金管會有什麼修法的建議嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：對於第一百七十七條，我們是持希望能夠維持現況的立場，因為在大法官釋字第740號解釋，對於這一塊是希望維持當事人自行跟公司議定的情況去發展。"],["顏委員寬恒：剛剛很多委員都提到，因為保險業務員的權益攸關全國40萬勞工，本席認為除了要修訂保險法之外，保險業務員管理規則也要同步修法，保險業務員的勞動契約、教育訓練、獎懲制度，還有申訴管道，攸關勞動權益，金管會應該會同勞動部來修訂。各保險公司制訂獎懲辦法對業務員進行管理，不論是業績、考核，甚至於納入勞動合約的部分，也都假獎懲辦法來管理，金管會對於這種亂象僅僅只是發函給保險公會進行道德勸說，讓保險業務員承擔遭受不合理管考的苦果。主委，剛剛很多委員都有提到這個問題，我覺得你要來正視這個問題，你是不是同意修法？對於之後的這些勞動權益跟勞動部共同來制訂這個辦法，好不好？"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員，也許有冒犯你的地方，但是保險業務員管理規則的始意，其實是對於業務員招攬客戶可能的行為、態樣、對保戶的權益影響所做的規範。至於勞務契約，他跟公司是承攬、僱傭，坦白說，我們跟勞動部有介入協調，可是要入法可能跟金管會對保險業監理的旨意有一些差異。不過這只是我們現在的立場，感謝委員給我們指導，謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：再請教主委，針對保險法第一百四十六條之四，海外投資上限現在是45%，我也看到今天金管會的說明，裡面分別提到目前加計國際板的債券最高可達資金是65.25%，如果再加上外幣、非投資型保單，最高國外投資可能可以達到資金的87.75%，到去年9月底，若再加上國際板債券以及外幣保單在內，壽險業海外投資規模超過22兆，這22兆的海外投資規模占可運用資金70%，但是相較之下，壽險實際投資國內公建僅新臺幣1,300億，占可用資金0.38%。我想要請教主委，22兆跟1,300億這麼大的差異，如何鼓勵壽險公司針對國內公建以及社福的公共設施投入、投資？如何能夠吸引這些資金回流到國內？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們在今天報告第8、第9頁都有把歷次我們調整支持的態度，包括修法、調降風險係數，還有跟跨部會的協調列在上面。剛才也說過，重點是這些需要公建的單位可不可以不要編預算，而能夠開放由保險業去投資。這個部分其實是案源的問題，我們當然會繼續鼓勵，謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：提供誘因也是一種方式。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好。"],["顏委員寬恒：如何讓壽險業願意把資金回流到投資國內，是我們要必須努力的。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，我們在努力中。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，繼續加油，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。休息5分鐘。","休息（11時24分）","繼續開會（11時31分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","接著下一位質詢，請賴惠員委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 案；\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案","agenda_id":"1133201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.08159375,"end":1.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.44846875,"end":2.8153437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.72659375,"end":4.755968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.4478437500000005,"end":6.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.523468750000001,"end":7.759718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.56096875,"end":11.117843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.691593750000003,"end":13.868468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.087843750000001,"end":14.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.134093750000002,"end":16.079093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.29846875,"end":17.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.08721875,"end":19.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.027843750000002,"end":20.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.972843750000003,"end":22.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.33971875,"end":28.043468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.11096875,"end":31.249718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.620968750000003,"end":33.814718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.96659375,"end":35.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.58659375,"end":37.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.594718750000006,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.80034375,"end":47.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.98971875,"end":51.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.87096875,"end":54.87471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.90409375,"end":59.414093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.93721875000001,"end":74.31471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.73659375000001,"end":81.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.79034375,"end":156.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.15409375000002,"end":169.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.81034375000002,"end":174.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.17659375000002,"end":180.77909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.16721875000002,"end":182.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.54659375,"end":188.35596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.81159375000001,"end":191.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.10221875000002,"end":199.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.74659375000002,"end":200.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.13034375,"end":201.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.14284375000003,"end":208.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.82534375,"end":212.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.53346875000003,"end":219.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.37221875,"end":225.75096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.37534375,"end":241.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.59659375,"end":244.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.57909375000003,"end":246.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.35096875000002,"end":251.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.75534375,"end":255.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.54784375,"end":263.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.26409375000003,"end":269.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.20409375,"end":271.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.51596875,"end":316.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.89284375,"end":365.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.89784375000005,"end":372.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.49596875000003,"end":373.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.09909375,"end":378.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.77346875,"end":392.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.71221875000003,"end":394.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.29846875000004,"end":402.11159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.55034375,"end":403.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.96784375000004,"end":414.41346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.48096875000005,"end":430.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.03534375000004,"end":435.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.30034375,"end":460.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.70159375000003,"end":463.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.51159375000003,"end":462.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.92471875,"end":465.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.03846875000005,"end":465.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.49346875000003,"end":471.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.02471875000003,"end":484.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.68096875000003,"end":494.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.75534375,"end":495.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.02534375000005,"end":512.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.2165937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謝謝部長那部長這個今天審查娛樂稅法廢止案那娛樂稅法是屬於特種消費稅與貨物稅特種貨物及勞務稅及菸酒稅屬於屬性相同那特種消費稅的課徵在已經有一般消費稅或商品及服務稅的存在下"},{"start":184.056,"end":187.572,"text":"難拖一頭牛被拖好幾層皮的一個負面評價"},{"start":189.065,"end":212.67,"text":"所以我是想要請教部長就是說多年來有很多位的立法委員在修法指出娛樂稅、貨物稅、印花稅這三項不合時宜的稅制應該予以廢除那前行政院長蘇貞昌當時也曾主動提示要廢除但是至今卻毫無進展那其中印花稅、娛樂稅一年的稅收"},{"start":213.59,"end":236.004,"text":"大約是170億元是地方政府非常重要的稅收來源那地方政府認為這不應該刪除當然地方政府的反對是因為中央政府如果能夠有相等的一個補足或者是一個刪除的部分來提供地方政府的一個相等的一個稅額"},{"start":237.685,"end":239.427,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":257.301,"end":270.027,"text":"法律的費值都必須要經過立法院統一那我想剛剛委員也提到了幾項賦稅第一個印花稅的部分其實一年大概收入有170億那對地方政府來說是一個非常重要的一個財源"},{"start":271.601,"end":276.203,"text":"我想這個部分已經說明所以他們也不贊同要廢止那至於娛樂今天我們討論的娛樂稅的部分一年大概差不多19億的一個收入那對地方來說尤其是在縣裡面的鄉鎮如果鄉鎮市收取的都是歸這個鄉鎮市那這個金額呢在中央也許看起來是這樣但是在地方來說它是一個非常重要的一個財源同時地方也需要有一個財政自主的一個空間"},{"start":298.436,"end":298.836,"text":"﹚立法院第11屆第11屆議員會議"},{"start":317.217,"end":342.013,"text":"反對廢止。第二個也就是說在項目裡面因為隨著社會經濟的變化以及娛樂行為的越來越多元那項目可以調整就在第二條的部分項目可以調整至於第五條是規定的那個稅率的上限那稅率的上限其實目前來看他們都是沒有按照最高上限來說而是都是從低課那也許這也可以做一些調整我覺得這個部分大家都有一個這樣的一個看法"},{"start":343.614,"end":356.559,"text":"另外就是對於因為各地方政府他的政策目的也不同他的經濟發展情況也不同所以未來也是可以考量賦予地方政府他一個停征的一個權限那讓他們可以考慮他們實質的一個鼓勵的一些對象我想這個部分不廢止的情況下依然可以做一些彈性的調整"},{"start":365.922,"end":390.753,"text":"好部長從地方政府的角度來看櫻花稅跟娛樂稅那的部分大概如果停徵或者如果廢止那他的損失大概是平均大概3%啦大概3%那這個對於可能會對地方政府的財政會有一定的困難但是只要有確保在長期可以保本的情況之下中央只要願意拿出國稅的0.5%"},{"start":393.315,"end":403.164,"text":"國稅的0.5%就會來補足這一塊在確保財政上的一個保本所以這個部分部長你怎麼看?"},{"start":404.545,"end":427.319,"text":"當然以金額來看委員們都有提到那中央就給予補助就好但是對地方來說他仍然希望有財政自主的空間是不是那未來在經濟成長率還有物價上漲率統籌分類款的還有一般性補助款的部分從這邊來做一個補償做一個補助就可以解決這個問題那也避免說一個重複課稅的問題那讓這個"},{"start":436.584,"end":459.958,"text":"中央統籌分配稅款的話他是就國稅的部分的稅目然後一定的比例去納入中央統籌分配稅款那目前中央統籌分配稅款在分配給地方政府的部分他是用一定的公式來做計算的不會是因如果說娛樂稅給他廢止的話他也不會在中央統籌分配稅款裡面去做一些調整是"},{"start":460.711,"end":460.731,"text":"黃竺偉"},{"start":469.542,"end":493.663,"text":"委員好 主委主委好保險法177條的修正主要是針對保險業務員的勞動權益那它攸關的不僅僅是保險業務員的權益更是保護的權益以及保障那同時能避免保險公司假承攬、真僱傭甚至於亂賣這個保險產品請問主委金管會有什麼修法的建議嗎"},{"start":494.844,"end":510.899,"text":"我們對於今天177條是持著希望能夠維持現況的一個立場因為在大法官的釋字7400號解釋對於這一塊是希望維持一個有關當事人自行跟公司議定的一個情況去發展"},{"start":513.894,"end":536.55,"text":"剛剛很多委員都提到因為保險業務員的權益有關全國40萬的勞工所以本席認為說要修訂除了保險法之外保險業務員管理規則也要同步修法保險業務員的勞動契約、教育訓練、獎懲制度還有申訴管道以及有關勞動權益的部分"},{"start":537.41,"end":564.892,"text":"禁管會應該要會同勞動部來修訂所以各保險公司制定的這個獎懲辦法對業務員進行的管理不論是業績考核甚至於是納入勞動合約的部分也都假獎懲辦法來管理所以禁管會對於這種亂象你僅僅只是發函給各"},{"start":567.995,"end":588.593,"text":"緊請發函給這個保險公會、公司的公然後來進行這個道德勸說讓這個保險業務委員的這個承擔保險業務委員要承擔遭受不合理的一個管考的一個苦果這個主委我想剛剛很多委員都有提到這個問題那我覺得你要來正視這個問題那是不是說我們"},{"start":591.836,"end":598.881,"text":"來同意修法來對於我們之後的這些勞動權益跟勞動部來共同來制定這個辦法好不好"},{"start":599.844,"end":625.145,"text":"道遠也許有冒犯你的地方但是保險業務院管理規則的使譽其實是對於業務員招攬客戶的一個可能的行為他一樣對保護的權益影響所做的一個規範就是說勞務契約他跟公司是承攬僱傭這個坦白說我們有介入協調跟勞動部可是要入法可能跟我們金管會去對"},{"start":626.186,"end":626.987,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":637.546,"end":661.143,"text":"再請教主委那針對保險法第146條之四海外投資上限現在是45%那我有看到你們這個我們今天金管會的一個說明那你們也有分別提到說那在目前加計國際版的債券最高可達資金是65.25%"},{"start":663.084,"end":690.578,"text":"如果再加上外幣非投資型保單最高國外投資可能可以達到資金的87.75%到去年9月底若再加上國際版債券以及外幣保單在內授權業海外投資規模是22兆,超過22兆那相較於已經是這22兆佔海外的一個投資規模佔可運用資金70%"},{"start":692.895,"end":697.919,"text":"但是相較於受選實際投資國內公建僅新台幣1300億,佔可用資金的0.38%。我想請教主委,22兆跟1300億這麼大的一個差異,如何鼓勵受選公司對針對國內的公建以及社福"},{"start":717.014,"end":725.183,"text":"社福的這樣子的一個公共設施的一個投入投資如何能夠吸引將這些資金引流回到我們國內"},{"start":726.164,"end":748.478,"text":"是,委員跟您報告我們在今天報告第8、第9頁都有把歷次我們調整支持的態度包括修法、調降風險係數還有跟跨部會的協調都有列在上面其實剛才也說過其實重點是這些需要公建的單位他可不可以不要編預算而能夠開放有保險業去投資那這個部分其實是按緣的問題我們當然會繼續鼓勵謝謝"},{"start":753.137,"end":768.149,"text":"提供誘因是一種方式,但是如何讓授權業願意把資金回流到投資國內是我們要必須努力的。是,我們在努力中。繼續加油。謝謝委員。謝謝。休息五分鐘。"}]}},{"id":"151546","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151546","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3360c3593aff916230297e999b50eca937cdcb4691eb09bf4e21aa97a5015985c895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:10:29 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11:20:15","影片長度":"00:09:46","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計8案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計1案。\n三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。\n四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案。）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-13"},"duration":586,"end_time":"2024-04-22T11:20:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T11:10:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":574,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時10分）謝謝主席，本席想請行政院李秘書長。"],["主席：好，行政院李秘書長，謝謝。"],["李秘書長孟諺：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：秘書長好。首先本席也要先恭喜您520之後要就任交通部長。我們也有一段時間沒見面，但是我一向對您非常敬重，因為您學有專精，而且有為有守，非常認真負責。"],["李秘書長孟諺：謝謝委員。"],["徐委員欣瑩：今天行政院的解凍案有8案，8個案合在一起才凍結100萬。本席看了這個報告有一個感受，可能因為這8個案其實都涉及民眾的權益、民眾的生命、財產、安全，甚至民眾的公民權，對民眾來說是大事，但是可能行政院覺得8個大案才凍結100萬，導致想要解凍的回復讓我們看了以後覺得敷衍了事，答非所問。本席就從前面開始，今天時間也有限，第一個，關係文書的報1663頁講到警察的不在籍投票。這是他們的公民權，當初凍結的時候，第10屆的委員希望行政院能夠檢討，加速推動警察行使選舉、罷免、創制、複決的基本權利。但是我們在解凍報告裡面看到你們敷衍地說可以，讓他在戶籍所在地的縣市、同一個區域、同一個選區不在籍投票。大家都知道警察在全臺灣流動，這樣子就要解凍，讓我們感覺真的太敷衍了。","因為時間的關係，我先提我看到的，當然後面也很多，但是我就先舉幾個。再來就是吹哨者保護法，也就是有關揭弊者保護法的部分，這個攸關政府廉能。本席也要特別肯定，行政院秘書長過去也有函釋，就是行政單位內部還是要鼓勵他們勇於揭弊，但是我們最終還是要有揭弊者保護法。民間企業有各種弊端、各種弊案，像食安問題如果不是有些內部揭弊，可能很多全國民眾都持續吃黑心食品，當然還包括金融單位各方面的。揭弊者保護法本席看到從109年行政院就在研擬，到今年（113年）都還送不到立法院。4年是總統一任的任期，竟然揭弊者保護法沒有辦法送來立法院，這一點就非常誇張，這裡面到底是什麼原因？這一次送來，當然裡面也有一些問題，等一下本席利用一些時間再跟您請教。","再來我們看到關係文書報1666頁，是針對國家氣候變遷調適行動計畫。當初提案凍結的理由是擔心現行機制是否足夠，而且要避免疊床架屋。雖然整個8案裡面才凍結100萬，光是這個行動計畫未來4年是4,116億元，可是你們回復報告的時候，完全沒有提及疊床架屋的情況如何改善。","還有健全租賃市場、住宅市場，其實很多民眾租房子的非常多，政府也有心提供租金補貼，但是當初凍結的原因也是因為第10屆的委員覺得現在有很多租屋黑市，考量如何改善黑市所以凍結預算，希望行政院能夠針對這些內容回復。但是你們答非所問，說有掌握有效租賃40萬筆，超過租屋市場的四成，也包含納入包租業者實價登錄。其實這些跟黑市沒有關，也不在黑市的範圍，重點是要改善黑市。很大的問題是在現在租屋市場資訊不足、不透明，還有違規隔間出租，居住品質非常低落，安全沒有保障，甚至房東還不願意出租給弱勢族群。對於現在租屋黑市的問題，行政院的報告沒有說明清楚。租金補貼是政府的美意，可是很多房東在出租的時候，不希望房客申請租金補貼，造成整個租屋黑市沒有辦法得到解決。面對這麼多重要的案子，可能就是100萬，所以大家就隨便回復。可是我們要在這邊特別提出來，這些都是非常攸關民眾權益的事情，我相信秘書長也認同，所以租屋黑市的部分，我們希望還是一定要正視這個問題，然後解決，秘書長只需要回復是不是可以。"],["李秘書長孟諺：是，委員所提的確實都是目前面臨亟待解決的問題，我們可能答得不夠完整，有一些……"],["徐委員欣瑩：都答非所問。"],["李秘書長孟諺：我們確實一定要精進。"],["徐委員欣瑩：其實還有很多，但是我時間不夠。前面從第1頁看到第5頁、8頁，我就覺得每一項都滿有問題的。除了租屋市場這一塊，再來是有關氣候變遷，確實現在常常降大雨，我們又有這麼多行動計畫，費用這麼多，怎麼樣不會疊床架屋？我們希望行政院絕對不要把錢隨便花，或是中央政府你做你的、民眾繼續受苦，這一塊是我們要避免的。"],["李秘書長孟諺：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我現在拉回來第一題──保障警察的公民權，他要不在籍投票，但是現在只有針對同選區、同縣市這個部分，像這一些我們所舉的，這樣子解凍合理嗎？"],["李秘書長孟諺：我先報告租屋市場那個部分，澈底解決租屋市場的方法，應該就是政府的社宅及供給，還有包租代管──類似社宅的供給，如果能夠超過一定的比例，就可以把整個租屋市場的價格、行情……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，但是社宅要到一定比例，不知道還有多久。"],["李秘書長孟諺：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：在還沒有之前，整個黑市的情況還是要解決，對不對？"],["李秘書長孟諺：是，現在每年大概有50萬戶的房租津貼，目前……"],["徐委員欣瑩：他們申請不了，因為房東說要跟他租就不要申請租屋津貼。"],["李秘書長孟諺：目前大概雙軌並進，包括同意讓房客領房租津貼的房東，我們會給他租稅優惠跟獎勵，鼓勵這些房東更願意配合。另外，後面可能還要修法，禁止的部分我們應該對他有……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，最後，揭弊者保護法為什麼4年都送不來立法院？甚至行政院目前好像都還沒審查完竣，這是什麼原因呢？這裡面有什麼貓膩，對不對？揭弊者保護法，我們就希望政府廉能，希望民間企業也要打擊這些弊端，可是為什麼4年都沒有辦法？"],["李秘書長孟諺：最近法務部在今年3月又把調整過的版本送進來，我知道羅政委已經開過好幾次會議，他現在正在……"],["徐委員欣瑩：什麼時候可以送立法院？"],["李秘書長孟諺：正在跟一些學者專家還有法界的人士徵詢，應該已經快告一段落了……"],["徐委員欣瑩：行政院預計什麼時候送來？一定要等新政府上任再送，是不是？"],["李秘書長孟諺：不會，階段性的徵詢比較完備的時候就可以提送。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["李秘書長孟諺：我們會再跟羅政委……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們希望行政院加油，謝謝。"],["李秘書長孟諺：我想廉能政府是大家一致的期待跟要求，這個部分怎麼樣保障……"],["徐委員欣瑩：但拖了4年。"],["李秘書長孟諺：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢。","下一位鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-13","speakers":["吳琪銘","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃建賓","丁學忠","高金素梅","張智倫","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","黃國昌","麥玉珍","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計 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元旦要上路，剩下大概半年多的時間，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以為了要改善我們的環境甚至安全，噪音認證排氣管有助於從源頭去管理，本席要請教，現在相關制度建立的進度怎麼樣呢？"],["薛部長富盛：目前源頭管理，我們環境部公布大概有258個排氣管是環境部認可的，假如他們有去使用這個，他可以去上網登記，他也不用再到監理所，環境部就會把這部機車的資料直接送到監理所，所以……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可以減少很多的舟車勞頓，而且速度會更快。"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：換句話說，噪音的管制認證標準，你們目前所規劃的，誠如剛剛部長所說的，是如此嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我們希望規劃好，上路前要有充分的宣導，讓社會大眾來瞭解，本席具體建議，你不要只有放在你的網站上面，因為沒有幾個人會看，你可以看你的瀏覽人數。所以我希望，因為民眾也非常期待，不管是用獎勵或者是用通路合作等等方式，應該要去宣導，要上路前必須要去宣導，讓社會大眾來瞭解。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝楊委員的提醒，同時跟楊委員報告，除了環境部之外，事實上地方的環保局也非常重要，每一次像這種政策，我們一定都有事先跟地方環保局做溝通……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：去合作嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：對，中央跟地方合作。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以我剛才跟你說通路合作啊！好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一定要大力宣導，讓大家知道。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝楊委員。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席還要再跟你討論碳費的問題，上次本席也跟你討論過，因此我們在3月26日雖然沒有達成怎麼樣的方式，但是至少有繼續在討論，所以未來要上任的新部長也說他上任後會讓大家多多來溝通，也就是針對於減碳的需求，減碳是全民的共識，當然最重要的，您剛才也有回答我們不是只有以碳費來遏止，這個觀念本席非常地贊成，所以需要國家生態系的改變，這是非常重要的。所以2025年起要開始開徵碳費，很多企業界都很緊張，到底什麼時間，是不是在2025年要開徵呢？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上，我跟楊委員報告，現在的關鍵是這樣，企業希望環境部早一點公布碳費的收費辦法以及自主減量的辦法，還有指定目標，因為……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為這對他們很重要，他要有脫碳的能力……"],["薛部長富盛：對、對、對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他也要接軌國際……"],["薛部長富盛：是、是、是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他總是要準備啊！"],["薛部長富盛：是，所以那三個子法必須先預告，讓我們的企業知道他們怎麼去寫自主減量計畫書才能夠享受優惠費率……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個本席非常清楚，所以凝聚共識的機制及時程表，你們現在列表出來了嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：是，都有在進行……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：進行，還沒有定案，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還沒有定案嘛？"],["薛部長富盛：對，因為……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，就因為還沒有定案，所以本席要請教您，要新接任的部長也說了，要好好地來溝通，你有什麼建議給他？"],["薛部長富盛：我想我們的彭準部長也是氣象專家，他對淨零排放這一塊事實上也有他的專業，我們會在這個月的時間之內把我們所知道的包括我自己所知道的全部跟我們彭準部長來分享，我相信他應該是可以去無縫接軌，我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：無縫接軌當然是必須要努力做的，但是問題是本席剛才請問的是你有什麼最需要建議給我們這個新任的部長？"],["薛部長富盛：我要給他的建議蠻多的，很短的時間大概也不可能……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你舉例啊！你舉例一下。"],["薛部長富盛：我會建議他在政策上的推動應該是有一貫性，事實上，彭準部長也蠻認同現在環境部針對碳費徵收方法的推動方向，當然因為他在媒體的曝光度各方面以及在經營社群媒體也很有成果，所以我會請他透過他在這一塊的影響力好好地把環境部很好的政策向大眾來做宣導，這樣子效果就會更好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你講的是宣導，但是本席所提問的是你有什麼特別要建議給我們部長的？"],["薛部長富盛：我覺得彭準部長應該很優秀，所以也沒有特別的建議，就是堅持我們在環境永續以及我們2050淨零排放、資源循環零廢棄等大方向的推動，這樣子就會非常棒！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是你給他的建議？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是你給他的建議，一起加油，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：反正我們現在隨時要聯繫都很方便，所以楊委員放心好了，我絕對會在能力……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：沒關係，你可以用書面資料給本席，就是你要建議新任部長的到底是哪些方向，好嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：OK。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝楊委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。接下來請李坤城委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝楊瓊瓔的提醒那同時也跟楊瓊瓔報告就是說除了環境部之外事實上地方環保局也非常重要我們每一次像這種政策一定都事先有跟地方環保局去做溝通就合作嘛所以我剛剛跟你說的嘛統統合作"},{"start":228.32,"end":233.342,"text":"一定要大力宣導讓大家知道。本期還要跟你討論看備的問題。上次本期也跟你討論過。因此我們在3月26日雖然沒有達成怎麼樣的方式但是至少有繼續在討論。所以未來要上任的"},{"start":250.549,"end":276.085,"text":"新的部長他也說他上任後會讓大家多多的來溝通也就針對於減碳的需求全民的一個減碳需求的一個共識當然最重要的您剛才也有回答到說我們不是只有以碳費來遏止這個觀念本身非常的贊成所以需要國家生態系的一個蓋"},{"start":276.906,"end":280.567,"text":"市長我跟楊瓊瓔報告這裡面現在關鍵是這樣企業希望環境部早點公佈碳費的收費辦法以及自主減量的一個辦法"},{"start":304.415,"end":333.495,"text":"還有就是指定目標因為他們很重要他要有脫炭的能力啊他也要有接軌國際啊他總是要準備啊所以那三個執法必須先依靠讓我們的企業知道他們怎麼去寫自主減量計畫書才能夠享受這個本事非常清楚所以也就是凝聚共識的機制跟時程表你們現在列表出來的嗎都有在進行啦進行還沒有定案嘛 對不對"},{"start":334.415,"end":361.131,"text":"還沒有定案嗎?好!就因為還沒有定案所以本席要請教您因為要新接任的部長他也要說他也說了要好好的來溝通你有什麼建議給他?我想這個我們的彭準部長他也是氣象專家那他對近年排放這一塊事實上也有他的專業那我們會在這個月的時間之內"},{"start":362.632,"end":381.053,"text":"會把我們所知道的包括我自己所知道的會全部來跟我們彭準部長來分享我相信他應該是可以去無縫接軌無縫接軌當然是必須要努力這麼做但是問題是本席剛才請問的你有什麼"},{"start":382.074,"end":402.837,"text":"最需要建議給我們的這個新任的部長我要給他的建議蠻多的啦我大概很短的時間也大概不可能說那你舉例啊我會讓他就是說在政策上的推動應該是有一致一貫性事實上彭準部長他也蠻認同現在環境部針對碳灰徵收的方法"},{"start":403.537,"end":429.311,"text":"的一個推動方向當然因為他這個媒體的曝光度各方面以及他在經營社群媒體也很有成果那我會請他透過他的在這一塊的影響力好好的把環境部很好的政策向大眾來做宣導那這樣子效果就會更好所以你講的是宣導嘛但是本席所提問你有什麼特別要建議給我們的部長的"},{"start":430.752,"end":448.479,"text":"我覺得彭準部長應該很優秀所以也沒有特別建議就是說這個堅持我們在環境永續以及我們2050進行排放支援循環零廢氣等大方向的推動這樣就會非常棒"},{"start":449.179,"end":468.597,"text":"這是你給他的建議?是。這是你給他的建議?一起加油,謝謝。我們現在隨時要聯繫都很方便,所以楊委員放心,我覺得會佔能力。沒關係,你可以用書面資料給本席,你要建議現在的部長到底是哪些方向,好嗎?謝謝。謝謝你,謝謝楊委員。謝謝楊瓊瓔。"}]}},{"id":"151541","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151541","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336fc5654ec7c5381a57dee175bc8e0be1adcb4691eb09bf4e26a3cf9a7d5d653fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:00:00 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11:11:52","影片長度":"00:11:52","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-10"},"duration":712,"end_time":"2024-04-22T11:11:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T11:00:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":570,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時59分）謝謝召委，我可不可以請財政部部長？"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：部長好。我剛才看到你回應李坤城委員有關於臉書粉專上爆料公社出現了一個公文截圖，指出520要上任的蕭副總統3月赴美帶回來了一些酒品，我先請教一下部長，這三頁資料是不是正確的？有沒有哪裡是不正確的？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，外交部確實有給我們國庫署還有基隆關這個公文。"],["李委員彥秀：我手上的這三頁資料有沒有哪裡是錯誤的？我要確認一下。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：就是在爆料公社的那三頁資料。"],["莊部長翠雲：我們是有收到這個公文，是沒有錯的。"],["李委員彥秀：沒有錯誤，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["李委員彥秀：好，因為外交部就聲稱網路的文件可疑，涉及變造、偽造、操弄認知作戰的惡意，說要調查，所以這三頁資料沒有錯誤，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：有這個公文，是的。"],["李委員彥秀：所以就沒有所謂認知作戰問題，這三頁是準確的。好，那也沒有涉及偽造的問題，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是啊，我們是有這個公文啊。"],["李委員彥秀：是有這個公文，好，那我就要請問外交部，到目前為止……"],["莊部長翠雲：但是報導的內容可能有一點跟事實不符啦。"],["李委員彥秀：對不起，您再說一次。"],["莊部長翠雲：至於那個報導的內容是跟事實有不符，那是有這個公文。"],["李委員彥秀：好，部長，目前因為外交部對外說要跟相關機關協調調查，調查的內容是什麼？參與的有哪些單位？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個我不清楚。"],["李委員彥秀：那調查什麼？它現在在調查什麼？你們在調查什麼？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分外交部在調查的事項，我們並不清楚，如果它需要調查，那財政部是配合調查事項。"],["李委員彥秀：對啊，它現在會同哪些單位調查，你知不知道？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分我們並不清楚。"],["李委員彥秀：對，就他一個人在說，你們完全不清楚？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，如果他要調查，要財政部說明，我們可以說明。"],["李委員彥秀：因為外交部對外的新聞稿回應是，這個有操弄認知作戰的惡意，外交部將協同相關機關協調調查，那我就要瞭解到底調查的單位有哪些、這個公文是不是偽造，從你剛才的回復看來顯然沒有偽造的問題。"],["莊部長翠雲：我跟委員報告，這個公文是有，那內容也是這樣，但是問題是揭露出來的說法是跟私菸案、特權、走私……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，我沒有這麼問你、我沒有這麼問你。"],["莊部長翠雲：那是跟事實不合嘛，您問的是這件公文嘛。"],["李委員彥秀：我絕對尊重駐外人員的辛勞，相關的規定我也非常清楚，他當然可以帶酒回來，只要有申報，也可以免進口酒類的衛生檢查。今天早上我也看到過去有55位外交人員有帶酒回來，也有申報，根據你們手邊的資料，大部分帶回來的酒類大概都有多少公升？大概帶回來幾瓶？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個部分因為我們手邊沒有……"],["李委員彥秀：你怎麼會沒有資料？今天早上你都可以回應林德福委員說有55位人員。"],["莊部長翠雲：有55件，但詳細的清冊我手邊沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：來！誰可以回應我？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，海關部分現在已經在清查了。"],["李委員彥秀：你是關務署，對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["李委員彥秀：您回應我，過去55位大概自用都可以帶多少？即便是免稅，又或者是有繳稅，一公升以下免繳，一公升以上要繳，都是自用，過去這55位外交人員回臺灣大概都帶多少酒回來？"],["彭署長英偉：跟委員報告，初步清查是這樣，因為每個人的需求不一樣了，所以從0到30瓶都有可能啦。"],["李委員彥秀：有沒有超過50瓶、70瓶、80瓶的？什麼叫做自用？什麼是一個合理的自用……"],["彭署長英偉：到目前大概看到最多的應該是40瓶，三、四十瓶左右這樣子。"],["李委員彥秀：那帶多少瓶是自用的合理量？三、四十瓶你們覺得可以接受？到底關務署認為帶多少酒是合理的？即便是自用，那帶100瓶，你們也覺得無所謂？只要繳稅都無所謂？"],["彭署長英偉：就如同剛剛委員說的，就是申報正確、誠實申報才是重要的，就是說超過的部分就是取證，就是菸酒業的進口許可要不要的問題。"],["李委員彥秀：我的重點不在繳稅，就是說他自用可以帶回來，繳稅也可以，但是所謂的自用，他帶200瓶回來也可以嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：這要個別去認定啦，個案去認定。"],["李委員彥秀：這不是個案，我覺得你們對外要交代清楚。部長，你瞭解我意思嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：我知道您的意思，但是……"],["李委員彥秀：帶200瓶回來，即便他繳稅，帶200瓶回來是不是合理？我覺得這件事情要交代清楚，什麼是一個自用合理的範疇？另外，我觀察到我們準副總統帶回來的酒倒是令我蠻訝異的，就是金車的噶瑪蘭從臺灣帶去再帶回來，因為他現在還沒進關，對不對？"],["彭署長英偉：還沒有。"],["莊部長翠雲：還沒有進關。"],["李委員彥秀：最便宜的10塊錢的酒他也帶回來，申報10塊錢帶回來2瓶加拿大的酒，還有從臺灣帶去的，最貴的反而是噶瑪蘭兩瓶，100塊美金，從臺灣帶去再帶回來，700ml的，我蠻訝異的。沒關係，我尊重，只要合法，我都尊重，但是我必須要提醒關務署，我絕對尊重駐外使節帶一些酒回來自用也合理，但是到底多少是自用合理的量？100瓶是不是合理？200瓶是不是合理？難道繳稅都合理嗎？這是我要問你的問題。我也觀察到副總統帶回來這批酒，有從臺灣帶去的再帶回來的，然後也有10塊錢的酒，也勞動到我們副總統帶回來，我看了這些內容蠻訝異的啦。但是貨還沒進到臺灣，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，還沒有。"],["李委員彥秀：那我們就好好的查，因為我還有2分鐘時間，我還是要回到正題問一下今天的第一百七十七條，對不起，部長，你請回。我請問一下金管會主委，今天這個問題存在已經非常久，保險業務員在臺灣將近有三、四十萬人，到底他們算承攬還是僱傭的關係？我相信每個委員辦公室都有接到陳情，長期以來他們都一直希望勞動部的角色應該要在裡頭才對，因為有時候契約關係對他們的要求，保險業務員看起來上班很彈性，跟一般朝九晚五的上班族不太一樣，有很多不同的彈性在，但是有時候對他們要求強度跟高度，其實都超過勞基法的相關規範，所以我們才問到底為什麼不能有勞動部的角色在合約裡面？因為這些保險業者跟業務員，他們的合約內容其實並不是每一個都一樣，我知道它有分很多種。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["李委員彥秀：為什麼我們長期希望勞動部的角色要在裡頭？因為他畢竟是勞工，有時候對他們的要求事實上已經超過勞基法的要求，包括對業務員的獎懲、對於停止業務員招攬的行為、註銷登記或不予登錄、撤銷登錄等等，其實這些都涉及到勞工的權益。今天勞動部也有人在現場，對不對？時間先暫停。"],["主席：時間暫停，請勞動部。"],["李委員彥秀：勞動部同仁長期知道我非常關心勞基法，這件事情涉及到四十萬個勞工，你個人覺得勞動部的角色到底應不應該在裡頭？"],["黃副司長琦雅：跟委員報告，目前勞動部主管全國各行各業的勞動事務，基本上有勞動契約關係的保險從業人員目前是受到所有勞動法令的規範。"],["李委員彥秀：但是勞動部對於相關權益，今天這麼多委員在問這些事情，我覺得保險業務員的相關規範，包括旅行業者僱用或指派這些導覽人員、領隊等等，他們都有另外再要求，契約內容不得違反交通部觀光局相關的公告契約及有不得記載的事項。所以我才強調，今天不管金管會、保險局的說法是什麼，我更認為這牽涉到40萬保險業務員的相關勞動權益，我覺得就契約的內容，這裡面你們應該要有角色才對。勞動部的同仁？"],["黃副司長琦雅：跟委員報告，我們跟金管會各個局，包含保險局，其實針對保險從業人員相關權益，我們過去一直都有相關的合作。"],["李委員彥秀：那今天為什麼還會有這麼多保險業務員公會來立法院跟各個黨派的委員陳情？這就是問題所在。局長、主委，您瞭解我的意思嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們瞭解，我跟您報告，其實施局長過去這麼多年來一直跟勞動部一起合作，在相關兩個公會、不同公會的協調過程中都有……"],["李委員彥秀：你們今天相關兩個公會的處理方法還沒有達到平衡點，所以才有這麼多公會現在對於勞工的權益仍舊不斷地在陳情，也就是現在的作法勢必要做調整。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對，有進展，但是還有一些可能要再繼續協調。"],["李委員彥秀：這絕對不是進展，第一百七十七條的修法說明得非常清楚。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["李委員彥秀：勞工的權益沒有跟資方放在天平上，所以剛才才會有委員說，這個公會是公司的「公」，不是工人的「工」，這個差距實在是太大，我必須提醒金管會跟保險局。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["李委員彥秀：謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：接著請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 案；\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案","agenda_id":"1133201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5.414093750000001,"end":26.136593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":27.621593750000002,"end":29.359718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":31.11471875,"end":34.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.10159375,"end":34.118468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.57409375,"end":44.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":41.88096875,"end":41.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":42.60659375,"end":42.977843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":44.96909375,"end":49.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.67721875,"end":50.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.95971875,"end":52.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":51.195968750000006,"end":55.650968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.08159375,"end":58.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":58.604093750000004,"end":67.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":67.95284375,"end":71.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":72.55971875,"end":73.94346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":74.68596875,"end":77.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.85034375000001,"end":76.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":78.48284375,"end":83.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":83.51159375,"end":85.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.86971875,"end":88.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":88.48971875000001,"end":93.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.49346875,"end":91.64534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.03346875000001,"end":103.86284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":104.63909375,"end":112.67159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":113.11034375000001,"end":116.73846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.85659375,"end":119.64096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":119.99534375,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.02909375,"end":120.09659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":120.09659375000001,"end":120.13034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.13034375000001,"end":120.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":120.34971875000001,"end":120.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.88971875000001,"end":120.90659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.48034375,"end":122.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.43784375000001,"end":124.73721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.31096875,"end":128.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.47909375,"end":137.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.74784375000002,"end":144.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.39221875,"end":151.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":147.60284375,"end":167.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.02596875,"end":188.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.09159375000002,"end":179.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.10846875000001,"end":179.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":179.96909375,"end":180.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.18846875,"end":180.22221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":180.22221875000002,"end":180.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.96471875,"end":181.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.94346875000002,"end":182.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":182.02784375000002,"end":183.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":184.27221875,"end":184.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":186.68534375000002,"end":186.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":187.47846875000002,"end":219.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.03471875000002,"end":219.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":219.15284375000002,"end":221.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.23721875,"end":231.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.05846875,"end":229.15971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":229.15971875000002,"end":229.96971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.96971875000003,"end":230.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.97784375,"end":237.12471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":234.77909375000002,"end":236.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":237.74909375000001,"end":246.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.04846875,"end":239.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":247.06409375,"end":256.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.62909375,"end":249.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.34534375000004,"end":263.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":264.07409375000003,"end":267.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.38159375000004,"end":273.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":267.76971875000004,"end":268.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":274.77284375,"end":276.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":277.03409375,"end":284.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":285.42096875000004,"end":285.45471875000004},{"speaker"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對不對是還沒有還沒有還沒有好那我們就好好的查喔因為我還有兩分鐘時間我還是要回到正題問一下我們今天177條"},{"start":435.763,"end":440.893,"text":"到底是承攬﹖噢對不起你請回部長我請問一下金管會的主委"},{"start":442.571,"end":469.897,"text":"主委今天這個事情存在問題已經非常久我們保險業者保險的業務員在台灣將近有三四十萬個員工到底他算承攬還是僱傭的關係我相信每一個委員辦公室都有接受到陳情那長期以來他們都一直希望說勞動部的角色應該要在裡頭才對因為有時候"},{"start":471.425,"end":491.5,"text":"在契約關係裡面對他們的要求看起來保險業務員他上班很彈性跟一般的朝九晚五不太一樣有很多不同的彈性在但是有時候對他們的要求的強度跟高度其實都超過勞基法的相關的規範"},{"start":493.101,"end":509.784,"text":"所以我們才說到底為什麼不能有勞動部的角色在合約裡面因為有一些其實因為這些保險業者跟這些業務員他們的合約其實內容不是每一個都一樣我知道他有分很多種是"},{"start":510.425,"end":516.607,"text":"所以但是有時候為什麼我們長期希望說勞動部的角色要在裡頭因為他畢竟是勞工有時候對他們的要求事實上已經超過一些勞基法的要求包括對業務員的獎懲還有對於一些停止業務員招攬的行為還有註銷登記或不予登錄的行為還有撤銷登錄等等"},{"start":533.291,"end":544.257,"text":"其實這些都涉及到勞工的權益今天勞動部現場有人也在現場對不對時間先暫停時間暫停請勞動部勞動部同仁長期知道我非常關心勞基法所以這件事情涉及到40萬個勞工你個人覺得勞動部你覺得你的角色到底應不應該在裡頭"},{"start":563.869,"end":565.152,"text":"目前勞動部主管全國各行各業的勞動事務基本上有勞動契約關係的保險從業人員目前是受到我們所有勞動法令上面的規範"},{"start":577.438,"end":598.032,"text":"但是我們看到其實勞動部其實相關的權益剛才今天這麼多委員在問這些事情就是說我覺得保險業務員的相關的規範跟範疇裡面我覺得包括過去我們就可以看到包括旅行業者他們有僱用或指派這些導覽人員、領隊等等"},{"start":600.173,"end":619.841,"text":"他們都有另外再要求是說契約內容不得違反交通部觀光局相關的公告契約而且有不得記載的事項在裡頭所以我才強調說今天不管金管會保險局的說法是什麼我更認為這牽涉到40萬保險業務員的相關的權益勞動權益在裡頭所以我覺得契約的內容你們應該要有角色在裡頭才對那個勞動部的同仁"},{"start":631.281,"end":653.186,"text":"跟委員報告我們其實跟金管會各個局包含保險局其實相關的保險成員相關權益我們過去一直都有相關的合作那今天為什麼還會有這麼多保險業務員公會來立法院跟各個黨派的委員陳情這就是問題所在局長主委您了解我的意思嗎"},{"start":654.065,"end":674.913,"text":"我們了解其實我跟您報告其實市局長過去這麼多年來一直跟勞動部一起合作那在相關兩個工會不同的工會的協調過程中也就是說你們今天相關兩個工會處理方法還沒有達到平衡點所以今天才有這麼多工會仍舊對於現在對於勞工的權益不斷的在澄清"},{"start":675.493,"end":701.303,"text":"所以也就是現在的修法是不是要去做調整的?有進展但是還有一些可能要再繼續再協調的這絕對不是進展177條的修法說明得非常清楚勞工的權益沒有放在跟資方沒有在天平上所以你們所謂剛才才會有委員講說這個工會是公司的工不是工人的工這個差距實在是太大我必須提醒經管會跟保險局謝謝好謝謝委員"},{"start":706.912,"end":707.174,"text":"接著請顏寬恆、顏偉文質詢。"}]}},{"id":"151540","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151540","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3362ba419f815ff6c3197e999b50eca937cdcb4691eb09bf4e27fa3856ef728f5b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"11:01:31 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11:10:16","影片長度":"00:08:45","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計8案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計1案。\n三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。\n四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案。）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-13"},"duration":525,"end_time":"2024-04-22T11:10:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T11:01:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":528,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（11時1分）謝謝，請不當黨產處理委員會林主委。"],["主席：請林主委。"],["林主任委員峯正：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：主委，很多委員都在問我們這個是任務型的編組，也面對非常多的訴訟，現在這個任務型的編組面對這麼多訴訟，如果沒有訴訟，這個任務型的編組還有沒有其他功能？"],["林主任委員峯正：我們現在就在監管所有附隨組織目前的財務，因為它如果一天不收回國有，我們就怕它的財產會流失。"],["李委員柏毅：所以這個委員會的成立就是從過去威權黨國不分的時代，到現在民主，我們必須要把國家的資源、真正國家的……"],["林主任委員峯正：要看管住。"],["李委員柏毅：對。包含國家的不動產等等都要看管住，是這個委員會的功能。"],["林主任委員峯正：是。"],["李委員柏毅：但是我有一點要提醒，所有不當黨產處理委員會的這些訴訟費用是來自哪裡？"],["林主任委員峯正：訴訟費用當然是來自預算。"],["李委員柏毅：對。"],["林主任委員峯正：這些訴訟的對象可能是過去黨國不分的黨的組織，目前還在運作的，所以編列的預算越多，訴訟的程度越多，就是代表這個黨跟這個國之間的訴訟永遠都沒有結束的一天，所以必須要不當黨產處理委員會繼續這樣執行。"],["林主任委員峯正：是。"],["李委員柏毅：其實在國家，不管是縣市政府或中央政府，面對很多跟私人公司之間的這些訴訟都有一個問題，那就是我們公部門的律師費用遠遠不及私人公司、民間單位的費用，有沒有這個問題？"],["林主任委員峯正：當然。"],["李委員柏毅：所以我個人會支持不當黨產處理委員會，對於律師編列的費用，我們必須要更加地支持，而不是只依照原定的標準，有什麼方式可以更加支持來看管我們國人的財產，這個才是重要的，我想在這邊對於林主委表示我們對於律師費用的支持之外，請你也要繼續堅守為人民看管。"],["林主任委員峯正：謝謝。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝，主委，你請回。","我們請行政院李秘書長，今天行政院預算解凍審查有兩個非常重要的議題，就是有關於租金跟少子化這兩個議題。租金其實也牽涉到社宅，社宅也牽涉到相關的少子化等等。剛剛秘書長講到一點很重要的，其實也是目前必須要去做的，就是有關縣市政府的區段徵收或者是重劃區要籌設3%到5%作為社宅的空間，目前已經入法了嗎？"],["李秘書長孟諺：這個部分目前是用內政部在審議各縣市報上來的區段徵收的新案，在審議的時候附帶要求，就是直轄市5%，一般縣市是3%。"],["李委員柏毅：所以我們對於過去已經審議通過的……"],["李秘書長孟諺：這個沒有入法。"],["李委員柏毅：沒有辦法入法嘛？"],["李秘書長孟諺：過去已經審議通過有請內政部評估，現階段是先用協商的方式，目前的瞭解是……"],["李委員柏毅：協商不出來的，其實我們在縣市政府待過，我們知道區段徵收跟重劃是地方政府很重要的財源之一。"],["李秘書長孟諺：對。"],["李委員柏毅：所以可能內政部這邊未來還是要跟地方政府用價購的方式，我們跟他們買。"],["李秘書長孟諺：一樣提出來，就是各縣市提3%到5%……"],["李委員柏毅：我們會算成本，就是當時核定它的成本，然後我們再用那個成本來跟它買買看。"],["李秘書長孟諺：如果是由中央蓋，會跟它價購……"],["李委員柏毅：另外一點……"],["李秘書長孟諺：如果是地方政府自己蓋，那就是自己的土地。"],["李委員柏毅：對，另外一點就是這個。現在住都中心蓋的速度，經過行政院的整合，像左營跟楠梓有好幾個社會住宅其實是經過行政院協調，不管是國防部或者是其他國產署的土地，經過縣市政府這邊很積極地跟住都中心合作蓋。高雄在六都裡面或者是在全國裡面，蓋社宅的比例是最快，數量是最多的。高雄的戶數最多，社宅比例最多，是不是未來高雄如果有區段徵收或者是重劃送到內政部的時候，內政部應該也要給予，比如說我們現在明定要3%到5%，這個就應該是3%啊！像其他縣市社宅比例明顯少、戶數明顯比六都少的就要讓它取5%，甚至更多啊！所以我這邊是想要在秘書長轉任部長之前給行政院相關單位的建議。","當然我要趁這個機會，在內政委員會可以跟未來的部長做幾個關於楠梓跟左營很重要的交通建設的一些說明。其實我知道陳其邁市長常常打電話給你，打完總統打院長，打完院長之後再打給秘書長。有關楠梓交流道引道，還有捷運紫線還有臺鐵立體化還有臺鐵未來班次的加密，都是未來秘書長在交通部要面對的很重要的高雄交通課題。","我從楠梓交流道引道來講，目前從臺南到高雄的國道一號負荷量已經非常大，過去從臺南到高雄的交通時程可能是40分鐘，現在都是超過1個小時，所以未來臺南的台積電園區到高雄現在的楠梓產業園區還會增加大量的運輸車輛，所以我們必須要爭取楠梓交流道引道。這一條引道也經過秘書長的協調，已經在國發會審議完畢，接下來會進行相關規劃，包含預算的編列等等，這一些都是未來部長要做的事情。"],["李秘書長孟諺：是。"],["李委員柏毅：高雄市政府這邊，我也會全力協助協調配合。"],["李秘書長孟諺：這一條引道非常重要，對於區域的交通順暢跟安全很有關係，因為大量的車輛、特別是貨車會進入園區。"],["李委員柏毅：直接進入園區。"],["李秘書長孟諺：就不要再經過平面道路，可以讓整個交通順暢，還有安全性提高。"],["李委員柏毅：可是這一條引道好的時候，其實台積電已經在量產了，所以我們還是會面對到有一點交通的擁擠。","接下來捷運紫線跟臺鐵立體化可能都會涉及到相關的特別預算，所以未來整個高雄北段的半導體園區，還有整個高雄的交通樞紐，其實很需要行政院以及交通部的支持，所以現在的秘書長、未來的李部長，以後也對於楠梓交流道引道、捷運紫線，還有現在臺鐵到左營，左營以北到楠梓、到橋頭這一段，要解決大量交通問題的鐵路立體化，還有立體化之後鐵路的加密，跟臺北不一樣的是臺北幾乎是10分鐘一班區間車，高雄是30分鐘才一班區間車，未來都要朝加密的方向努力。謝謝。"],["李秘書長孟諺：好。"],["主席：謝謝李柏毅委員的質詢。","下一位徐欣瑩委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-13","speakers":["吳琪銘","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃建賓","丁學忠","高金素梅","張智倫","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","黃國昌","麥玉珍","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計 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11:04:47","影片長度":"00:11:06","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":666,"end_time":"2024-04-22T11:04:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T10:53:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":711,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（10時53分）謝謝主席，麻煩薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：王委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。剛剛聽到很多相關機車噪音帶來的影響，我這邊也根據今天排的議程來跟您瞭解一下，對於交通工具噪音檢測量能的部分，其實噪音對國人健康的影響還需要更多的研究，才能夠讓我們知道噪音對於除了一般健康之外還造成哪些影響。"],["薛部長富盛：是，認同。"],["王委員正旭：不過，在提這個噪音檢測之前，我們還是先來討論一下機車排氣檢測的問題，因為噪音跟氣體對於民眾健康的影響，事實上還是要做一些區隔，同時也要多瞭解。目前機車的數量已經接近1,500萬輛，如果把汽車也加進來的話是2,300萬輛，幾乎是每個國民都會有一輛代步工具，這是密集度非常高的一個……"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["王委員正旭：不知道我們有什麼更好的方式來改善，在我們讓交通順暢的同時、移動順暢的同時，能夠達到好的環境保護。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝王委員提的這個問題。基本上，因為臺灣地狹人稠，道路通常也比較小，所以機車會那麼流行，事實上是有它的原因，因為有時候真的用機車比開車方便太多了。"],["王委員正旭：瞭解。"],["薛部長富盛：特別是你到市區、到比較狹小的地方，大概機車這一塊真的很難在短時間降下來，所以除非我們的大眾運輸工具真的非常便利，幾乎可以不用車子，我到哪一個地方就可以有大眾運輸工具，所以這些年來，不管環境部、交通部、經濟部，我們在對汽機車一些汰舊換新的政策，事實上也做了一些調整。早期因為新車的效率比較高、省油的效率，所以即使你是燃油車，也是鼓勵汰舊換新，後來隨著碳排以及空氣污染的因素就逐漸鼓勵把燃油車換成電動車，可是我們剛剛也看到一些資料，這樣子機車數目並沒有減少，因為我們的習慣沒有改變，我們本來是希望民眾也可以減少機車，而去搭乘大眾運輸工具，但是發現沒有啊！整個機車的數量，這個也可以從王委員的數據來顯示，所以現在我們基本上不鼓勵從能源的效率，從排碳去汰舊換新，但是當然也允許地方政府在開發工業區，它需要不管是碳的減量額度，或者是空氣污染的減量額度，可以去做一個鼓勵的措施，去做增量抵換的政策，這個是還有在執行，所以政策上有改變。"],["王委員正旭：是，我們希望有更好的誘因，能夠讓民眾知道在使用交通工具的時候，他其實也要付出一些社會的成本、代價，如何能夠幫助社會也減少相關的污染，我們知道通勤的空污的確是造成目前不管是PM2.5也好、一氧化碳等等，造成的影響都遠比電力業還要高很多，所以如果透過剛剛部長所提到的這些方案或者是誘因的話，希望能夠至少減少這方面帶來的影響。","空污的部分，PM2.5對於民眾的健康，尤其是目前知道如果跟癌症相關的話，可能包括肺部的癌症，這是讓我們非常擔心的，我們如果往下看的話，曾經也有一些研究，大部分都在都會區，因為都會區造成的影響相對比較高，這是2017年的資料，我們可以看到，如果從臺北車站往不同的方向處理、走不同的路線的時候，在東、西、南、北發現PM2.5的監測值就差很多，現在已經過了7年，不知道還有沒有相關的研究提供民眾……當自己是機車族的時候，在不同的地方，如何能夠去瞭解、掌握自己的健康，或者是暴露在PM2.5這個部分的影響。"],["薛部長富盛：跟王委員報告，這個研究報告好像是之前環境部內部同仁自己做的一些研究成果，我覺得像這種跟民眾健康息息相關的一些自發性的研究，應該可以繼續來推動。當然我們也很期待，譬如說，因為這個議題是跟大眾的健康關係非常密切，假如能夠再結合衛福部跟國衛院及　學術機構，在這一塊投入更多的經費，應該是有助於我們瞭解空氣品質跟我們健康之間的關係，那就會更好了，因為環境部本身自己的研究經費，以我在環境部這些日子來看，我是覺得還滿可惜的，就是說環境部的經費比較偏向在執行政策面，或者民眾生活環境品質相關的部分，反而對於比較算是前瞻性的或者跨領域研究的這一部分，在經費上應該還有努力的空間，我們將來會責成我們國家環境研究院，事實上在這一塊可以多投入一些經費，當然我們也會爭取更多的科技預算來做這方面的研究。"],["王委員正旭：是，謝謝部長，如果回到學界，也希望部長把現在的經驗提供給學界做一些重要的依據，或者是在引導大家做研究的時候……"],["薛部長富盛：是，我非常樂意，這是我應該做的。"],["王委員正旭：把這個重點做得更好。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝王委員。"],["王委員正旭：我們可以看到其實機車排氣的到檢率，因為看起來新車當然到檢率相對比較高，可是車齡越高的，它的到檢率相對就會偏低，當然我們也瞭解，車齡越老、越多年，它造成的影響就越多，反而它的到檢率是低的，這部分不知道將來有沒有什麼比較好的方式來讓到檢率可以有效地提升，減少這些高齡的車子對於環境的影響？"],["薛部長富盛：王委員這個數據非常好，理論上應該是正好相反，新車即使前幾年沒有檢查，只要它出廠的時候已經合格，大概也都OK。反而使用越久，這些效率不管是排氣氣體的過濾效率就會更差，應該到檢率要更高，不過王委員這個數據顯現結果正好相反，我們來思考看看有沒有更有效的方法，我個人覺得的確是年齡越高到檢率偏低，這個部分是有一些討論空間。"],["王委員正旭：是，再麻煩部裡針對這個狀況做一些瞭解跟處理的方案。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["王委員正旭：我們再看一下噪音對我們國人健康的影響，剛剛也有委員提到其實WHO一直在示警，低噪音的確是很重要的一個保護作用，可以避免民眾身心健康的影響，如果我們能夠有效地把噪音控制下來，不管是白天或是夜間的噪音，應該對我們的健康影響都會得到更大的改善。歐洲認為這是一個很重要的議題，需要大家一起來努力，歐洲認為因為噪音造成的影響，而提早死亡，這是必須要特別去改善的，所以他們也提了一個具體的數字來要求，他們希望在2030年，長期受到交通噪音影響的困擾人數，相較於2017年要減少30%，不知道我們國家有沒有相關長期的規劃，未來我們需要如何去執行一個定量的目標，可以根據這個目標來做依據的一種檢討模式？"],["薛部長富盛：給王委員報告，今天跟王委員這樣交流意見，我覺得受益很多，因為環境部的確早期比較偏向空氣污染，而且是長久、傳統我們環保署在做的就是空氣污染、水污染、土壤等等這一塊，而對噪音這一塊的確也是最近這幾年才開始，我們經由王委員的建議，我個人覺得環境部未來對聲音跟健康的關係應該要投入更多的資源來做研究，我覺得這個真的是很重要，剛剛講到這已經變成是第二個影響我們健康的因素，我也期許環境部未來在聲音對於健康方面的影響，應該要做更多的研究。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝部長的允諾，因為我們知道環境部基本上在噪音還有空污的問題，未來在針對全民健康的維護之下，希望也有機會可以跟衛生環境部這邊有更多的連結，有這樣的研究會更好，因為我們發現真的本土研究還是相對少很多，這部分就麻煩部長，也能夠依照對國民健康的允諾，持續地精進，我的質詢先到這邊結束，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝王委員的指教。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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話那可能跟包括這個肺部的癌症是讓我們非常擔心的那我們如果往下看的話曾經也有一些研究"},{"start":276.238,"end":293.608,"text":"在大部分都在都會區,因為都會區造成的影響相對是比較高這是2017年的資料我們可以看到如果從這個臺北車站往不同的方向處理走不同的路線的時候在東西南北發現這個PM2.5的監測值就差很多"},{"start":298.131,"end":313.34,"text":"現在已經過了7年了,不知道還有沒有相關的研究提供民眾當自己是機車主的時候在不同的地方如何能夠去了解掌握自己的健康或者是暴露在2.5方面這個部分的影響"},{"start":314.847,"end":337.202,"text":"給王委員報告,這個研究報告是環境部之前我們內部同仁好像是自己做的一些研究成果那我覺得像這種對民眾健康息息相關的一些自發性的研究應該可以繼續來推動當然我們也很期待,譬如說因為這個議題是跟大眾的健康非常"},{"start":338.623,"end":357.578,"text":"關係非常密切,只要能夠再結合衛福部、我們跟國衛醫院跟協助機構能夠在這一塊多投入更多的一個經費那應該是有助於我們瞭解空氣的品質跟我們健康之間的關係就會更好啦"},{"start":358.118,"end":377.193,"text":"因為環境部本身自己的我們的研究經費我在環境部這些自己來看我是覺得還蠻可惜的就是說環境部的經費他比較偏向在執行政策面或者民眾生活環境品質相關的部分反而對於比較"},{"start":378.354,"end":379.254,"text":"現在部長如果回到學界"},{"start":402.841,"end":404.542,"text":"我非常樂意這是我應該做的我非常樂意好 謝謝"},{"start":419.833,"end":419.853,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":449.857,"end":449.878,"text":"嗯。"},{"start":451.24,"end":479.374,"text":"王委員這個數據非常好理論上應該是正好相反對不對新車這個即使前幾年沒有檢查大概都OK只要他出場的時候已經合格反而使用越久這些效率啦不管是這個排氣啊氣體的過濾效率就會更差那應該盜檢要更高不過這個王委員這個數據顯現結果正好相反我們來思考看看有沒有"},{"start":480.154,"end":481.756,"text":"是,再麻煩布里針對這個狀況做一些了解跟處理的方案"},{"start":496.256,"end":523.337,"text":"我們再看一下這個噪音對我們國人健康的影響剛剛也有人提到其實WHO一直在示警這個低噪音的確是一個很重要的一個保護作用可以避免民眾身心健康的影響如果我們能夠有效去把這個噪音的控制下來不管是白天的或是夜間的噪音應該對我們的健康影響都會得到更大的改善我們可以往下看"},{"start":525.339,"end":546.676,"text":"歐洲認為這是很重要的議題需要大家一起來努力可以我們往下看發現說歐洲認為因為噪音造成的影響提早讓死亡這是必須要特別去改善的所以他們也提了一個具體的數字要求我們可以往下看說他們希望在2030年長期受到交通噪音影響的困擾人數"},{"start":548.277,"end":566.17,"text":"要從2017年相較就是要減少百分之三十不知道我們國家有沒有相關的一個長期的規劃說未來我們需要如何去執行一個定量的一個目標來做一個可以去根據這個目標來做依據的一種檢討模式"},{"start":569.501,"end":586.591,"text":"給王委員報告,我覺得今天跟王委員這樣子交流意見我覺得受益很多因為環境部的確早期比較偏向空氣污染而且是長久傳統我們環保署在座的就是空氣污染"},{"start":587.111,"end":587.371,"text":"韓國瑜委員"},{"start":606.565,"end":622.378,"text":"致言來做研究我覺得這個真的是很重要已經變成第二個剛剛講到影響我們健康的因素那我也期許環境部會來在這個聲音的對健康方面應該要做更多的研究"},{"start":623.598,"end":647.03,"text":"謝謝部長的言諾因為我們知道環境部基本上就是噪音還有空污的問題那這個其實都必須要未來如何能夠在針對全民的健康的這個維護之下希望也有機會更多可以跟衛生環境部這邊有做更多的連結讓對於這樣的研究可以更好因為我們發現真的"},{"start":648.351,"end":664.54,"text":"本土研究還是相對相對的少很多那這部分就麻煩部長也能夠依照這個對國民健康的允諾持續的來精進那我的目前的質詢先到這邊結束謝謝王文的指教謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151538","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151538","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336394d711c84b909d497e999b50eca937cdcb4691eb09bf4e21c0234b0a221b0dd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"10:51:01 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11:01:13","影片長度":"00:10:12","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計8案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計1案。\n三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。\n四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案。）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-13"},"duration":612,"end_time":"2024-04-22T11:01:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T10:51:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":486,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（10時50分）主席好，各位官員、各位委員，大家早安、大家好，是不是先有請秘書長？"],["主席：好，請行政院秘書長，謝謝。"],["李秘書長孟諺：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：秘書長早安，第一次碰到秘書長，也得知秘書長即將接任交通部長，在這邊給秘書長恭喜。本席代表中和鄉親，過去您擔任臺北縣水利局的局長，在蘇貞昌縣長任內，因為過去中和的南勢角，那時候還叫中和市南勢角，那邊容易淹水，是當時的蘇貞昌縣長跟秘書長您還有很多在地的議員一起努力來做南勢角分洪的動作，讓南勢角不再淹水，所以本席在這邊代表我們中和的鄉親，對您非常的肯定也感謝，那秘書長請回。"],["李秘書長孟諺：謝謝委員。"],["張委員智倫：我們請不當黨產處理委員會的主委。"],["主席：好，林主委，謝謝。"],["林主任委員峯正：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：主委好，本席要請問你，我要幫我們救國團來發聲，請問一下救國團被不當黨產委員會認定為政黨附隨組織的原因大概是什麼，可不可以簡單敘述一下？"],["林主任委員峯正：簡單說，救國團在民國41年的時候設立，它當時設立的時候，那段時間有像自由中國這樣的雜誌，有很多人在裡面寫文章，就主張救國團其實是一個黑機關，那麼我們爬梳了非常多的歷史資料，包括各種檔案，我們發現救國團它是沒有立法、沒有任何法律依據的，當時被弄成一個像準行政機關這樣子……"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝主委。"],["林主任委員峯正：人事、財務、業務被國民黨控制的資料都在我們的處分書跟調查報告裡面，我們都公布在網站上。"],["張委員智倫：是，我跟主委報告，因為救國團就我自己本身、本席的瞭解而言，它是具有公益性、教育性以及服務性的一個公益法人身分，也是過去很多人從小到大回憶的地方，本席希望黨產會不要自行認定，臺灣是民主國家，當然過去可能會有很多的組織，當時國民政府來臺灣會成立一些組織，可是大家都知道現在是民主社會時代，希望黨產會這邊也要幫幫救國團，讓它可以繼續推動一些公益活動。","我想要針對很多大法官對黨產會做出的一些建議來請教主委，因為許多大法官，比如說張瓊文大法官提出，認為你們黨產會過度限制一些組織的財產權，而且有一些違誤的情形，我請教一下，針對張瓊文大法官所提出的，你們已經過度限制曾為附隨組織，而且對財產的使用處分權有做限制，這點你要怎麼回應？"],["林主任委員峯正：請問委員，這有什麼具體的哪個個案？"],["張委員智倫：大法官這邊寫得非常清楚。那我再跟您報告，像詹森林大法官也有提出，一般來講，脫離政黨控制後始擁有之正當取得財產，應該非屬黨產條例所欲處理的客體，而且不能被推定為不當取得。顧名思義，就像本席剛剛跟你講的，過去早期當然有一些黨會有一些指派的情形，可是現在應該都已經區分得非常清楚了。"],["林主任委員峯正：我可以跟委員說明一下，譬如像我們在中廣公司的處分裡面，我們認定中廣公司……"],["張委員智倫：等一下，不好意思，我先請教關於救國團的部分，好不好？針對救國團。"],["林主任委員峯正：好，救國團的部分，我也可以很清楚地說明，早期的時候，自民國41年開始，它在國防部下面，它所有的預算、所有自用的費用全部都來自國家的預算，到58年之後解除隸屬，不隸屬於國防部，但是它所有的財務資源全部也是來自於國家，到了民國78年時，它設立了社團法人，因為這個階段正好碰到解嚴，確實它轉型，所以我們認定救國團曾經是國民黨的附隨組織，但現在問題來了，它在民國41年到78年這段期間從國家取得的財務該登記在救國團名下的不動產是很多，它有沒有在離開政府的時候，把那些當時從政府拿到的財務通通交回來呢？沒有。所以我們現在追究的其實是這一塊，也就是民國78年它正式登記為社團法人之後，那個時候它並沒有把從國家拿去的財務賸餘的部分交回來，我們現在追的，包括我們的處分，如果有稍微看一下那個處分書的話，我們主張是就那個時間點它沒有交回來的部分。至於救國團後來它又到各縣市去做了新的業務，譬如運動中心，像這個就完全跟過去無關，那我們就非常支持啊！我們雖然監管它的財務，它跟我們申請相關的費用，我想委員應該可以跟救國團詢問一下，我們通通很快就許可，從來都不會影響到它類似新的業務，但是它舊的財務必須要交回來，這個是我們的職責所在。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝主委的分享。所以本席就是希望，你這邊黨產委員會應該要讓救國團順利繼續去推動它相關的業務，尤其剛剛本席有跟你報告，它是公益性、教育性以及服務性的。本席當然有詢問過救國團裡面的相關長官，希望未來還是持續推動救國團的部分，而且就像主委剛剛講的，其實它有一些明確可以區分已經不算是附隨組織的部分，也請主委這邊要手下留情。","第二個，大家長期討論到的就是，不當黨產委員會，很多大法官也講它不是永久性的一個組織，它應該是一個任務型組織，像你們這個不當黨產委員會已經成立這麼久了，就你們而言到底還要成立多久、有沒有一個落日條款？我本身是會計師，我們查一個組織也不會像貴委員會查這麼久，到底你們還要花多少的人民預算來做不當黨產的調查？"],["林主任委員峯正：按照黨產條例的規定，我們確實是沒有落日條款，我剛才一再說，但是我們委員有任期，至於要不要再繼續，我想這個是政策考量，我們就尊重包括立法院，包括行政院這邊的規劃。相關的……"],["張委員智倫：其實你們可以自行提出來，因為我們是……"],["林主任委員峯正：不是，我剛才也說明過，因為我們處分了之後，被處分的對象全部都到行政法院打官司，現在陸陸續續才在結案。我們現在結了兩件，一個是中投、欣裕台有一百多億的公司股權，現在收歸國有；我們也看到轉帳撥用案，那個法院判決確定。但是像委員剛剛提到的救國團，它的案子拖了4、5年。"],["張委員智倫：我的意思是，我覺得不當黨產委員會不是協助打官司的一個委員會，就是……"],["林主任委員峯正：我們尊重被處分的對象。"],["張委員智倫：我要請教你的是，你們現在是不是都已經差不多調查完畢了？還是你們現在的職權就是負責跟這些組織打官司？"],["林主任委員峯正：我們是獨立機關，所以業務包括調查內容可能不方便在這邊跟委員報告。但可以看到很明顯的就是我們有大批的訴訟，包括一個婦聯會，光是附隨組織案就拖了6年，媒體都很關心，我們也很無奈，我們也不想它拖這麼久。剛開始說釋憲，結果2020年8月釋憲 出來，現在已經2024年了，兩個月就開一次庭，開了幾十次庭，法院沒有辦法結案。"],["張委員智倫：最後，因為時間的關係，我還是要請教主委，您針對解凍案今天的這個解釋，就去年而言，貴委員會動用預算，歲出部分只用了八成，112年只用了八成，而113年居然你們所編的歲出預算比去年還多……"],["林主任委員峯正：差幾十萬。"],["張委員智倫：請問一下，到底你們是要做什麼事情？"],["林主任委員峯正：我想相關預算書裡面都有清楚的說明，我們就是按照那些……"],["張委員智倫：因為只用了八成，為什麼今年的預算還要再增加？"],["林主任委員峯正：我們沒有特別去增加，它那個就是因為統刪、統編的金額而已，譬如說……"],["張委員智倫：去年只用了八成，都用不完了，為什麼今年要再增加預算？有沒有一個簡單的……"],["林主任委員峯正：我們沒有去要求增加預算，我一再說明了，我們沒有。"],["張委員智倫：可是金額是有提高啊！"],["林主任委員峯正：它好像是20萬還是……這個就是主計總處那邊的一些協調，到最後就變成可能增加一點點，我們一年才5,000萬啦，一個機關。"],["張委員智倫：好，主委，我這邊要拜託你，第一個，我要幫救國團請命，就是必須要繼續推動救國團幫助很多年輕人的部分。第二個，不當黨產委員會你們內部要不要討論──到底不當黨產委員會會不會變成一個專門打訴訟官司的委員會？第三個就是你們列有預算的部分，如果真的沒有需要花那麼多，請你們也要節省人民的納稅錢。以上，謝謝。"],["林主任委員峯正：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝張智倫委員的質詢，謝謝。","下一位請李柏毅委員。謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-13","speakers":["吳琪銘","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃建賓","丁學忠","高金素梅","張智倫","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","黃國昌","麥玉珍","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計 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of the Constitution of the United States of America"},{"start":108.917,"end":136.411,"text":"當時被弄成一個像準行政機關這樣子。好,謝謝主委。人事財務業務被國民黨控制的資料我們都在我們的處分書跟調查報告裡面,我想我們都公佈在網站上。我跟主委報告,因為救國團就我自己本身本席的了解而言,它是具有公益性、教育性以及服務性的一個公益的一個法人的一個身份。那很多,也是過去很多人的一個這個從小到大的一個回憶的一個地方。"},{"start":137.091,"end":138.372,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":163.035,"end":167.099,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":190.319,"end":191.12,"text":"憲法委員有什麼具體的個案?"},{"start":206.472,"end":228.284,"text":"大法官這邊寫得非常清楚那我再跟您報告齁這樣詹森文大法官也有提出齁一般來講已經有脫離政黨控制後時有擁有之政黨取得財產應該非屬黨產條例所預處理的課題而且不能被推定為不當取得所以顧名思義就像本席剛剛跟你講的過去早期當然會有一些這個黨"},{"start":230.871,"end":237.075,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度"},{"start":259.284,"end":260.705,"text":"政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案"},{"start":275.194,"end":277.095,"text":"三、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":294.506,"end":297.85,"text":"當時從政府拿到的財物通通交回來了沒有所以我們現在追究其實這一塊"},{"start":310.066,"end":312.427,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書"},{"start":338.319,"end":353.592,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":353.973,"end":379.503,"text":"好,謝謝主委的分享所以本席就是希望說你這邊當常常委員會要應該讓救國團順利繼續推動他相關的業務尤其剛剛本席有給你報告就他是公益性、教育性以及服務性的那本席當然有詢問過救國團裡面的相關的長官那就希望說未來還是繼續推動救國團的部分而且就像主委剛剛講的其實他已經有一些明確可以區分"},{"start":380.223,"end":382.905,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":395.993,"end":399.255,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":421.232,"end":437.745,"text":"按照這個黨產條例的規定我們確實是沒有落入條款我剛才在說但是我們委員有任期啦至於要不要再繼續我想這個是政策考量我們就尊重包括立法院包括行政院這邊的規劃那相關 請你們可以自行提出來啊"},{"start":438.345,"end":459.635,"text":"不是,因為我剛才也說明過嘛,因為我們處分了之後,被處分的對象全部都到行政法院打官司,那現在陸陸續續才在結案。我們現在結了兩件,一個是中投信譽台有一百多億的公司的股權,現在收歸國有。那麼我們也看到轉帳撥用案,那個法院判決確定,但是像委員會案集中的救國團,"},{"start":460.956,"end":463.957,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":477.163,"end":490.98,"text":"還是你們現在的職權就是負責來跟這些組織來打官司?我們是鼓勵機關所以我們的業務包括調查內容可能不方便在這邊跟委員報告但是可以看到很明顯的就是我們有大批的訴訟包括一個婦聯會案光是負責組織案就拖了6年"},{"start":493.883,"end":500.672,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 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蔡其昌"},{"start":75.563,"end":99.812,"text":"我們以凍結這個案子就好了所以你知道凍結的仲裁在去年年底我印象如果沒有記錯仲裁就已經宣判這個建設公司要賠台中市政府多少錢去年就已經仲裁結果出來那今年這個監察院的調查報告也出來"},{"start":101.445,"end":124.736,"text":"主委我其實很擔心一個我不知道會不會發生就是說你想仲裁也在查因為要仲裁要宣判他一定要對事實的本身他有一定程度理解他才可以宣判換言之在仲裁宣判的時候那個宣判者他對於這件事情的整個這個前因後果發生的狀況他一定有所"},{"start":125.596,"end":145.487,"text":"這個新政他一定有所新政有所了解有所新政他才能夠在仲裁上宣判再來調查的監察委員他也一定一樣跟仲裁委員一樣有一定的新政他也才能夠做出監察院的調查報告那現在問題來了我們是最後那一個啊萬一公布出來跟前面不一樣怎麼辦"},{"start":147.659,"end":165.278,"text":"主委,你有沒有想過這個問題?剛剛我有聽到,你有回答說應該你跟檢察院是差不多的。如果有一天有一個調查報告出來,你們是不一樣。請問一下,這裡面所有人民的信任,所有可能涉及商務的賠償,到底要誰才會遵守?主委"},{"start":169.205,"end":187.293,"text":"監察院的調查的跟我們的方向是一致可是我們的報告比他細膩阿對阿萬一監察院沒有調查的部分你們有調查嘛所以只有一個報告那監察院有調查的部分跟你們也有調查的部分如果有一天出現不一樣的時候請問我們該相信誰的"},{"start":188.14,"end":215.394,"text":"因為他拿的這個resource的資料都一模一樣,不可能會...喔,真的嗎?主委,你真有信心喔?因為我們跟同一個單位拿的資料都一樣,但是我們的分析的角度會跟他當然不同。沒有關係,主委,這個是你應該回去,因為我只有5分鐘,我其實沒有空跟你在這裡探討啦。我只是提醒你第一個,你想喔,這麼多單位在調查,再來這些單位source都跟你一樣,他速度卻比你快。"},{"start":217.026,"end":240.152,"text":"因為核心的問題要出來嘛才可以對這件事情做一個結案或了結嘛那你跟他不一樣的部分或許不是今天這個事件的問題核心嘛可是大家怎麼看運安會監察院跟你都同樣的受死你們調出來結果一樣人家監察院為什麼可以速度比你快你的速度比人家慢這個叫做合理性的說明"},{"start":240.916,"end":265.361,"text":"就是運安會恐怕要花一點時間對國會對社會大眾對運安會你們的分級制度調查每一級調查的時間是否合理該被檢視然後這些調查報告如果不一樣未來不要產生爭議在立法院大家有人拿監察院的報告有人拿運安會的報告草野立委又因為大家這個不同又吵的說這個有政治力介入還有什麼"},{"start":266.377,"end":295.59,"text":"我先防患未然啦就你們講運安會的每一個報告其實都在防患未然嘛對不對我也一樣先在這裡提醒這個也因為從終結這個案子你就可以知道第一個我們速度最慢人家仲裁也判了要賠多少錢也判了然後的監察院報告也出來了哇阿當海阿現在純單運安會欸所以這個難怪大家會會質疑嘛好第二個部分我們所有的所有的這個報告啊"},{"start":296.264,"end":321.277,"text":"我們所有的報告每一次運安會的調查都是為了阻止這個下一個事故的發生這個其實報告的精髓在這裡也是運安會成立或者在立法院代表民意的立法委員其實大家最關心的其實就是這個所以在我的看法上剛剛你都被白罵運安會我告訴大家"},{"start":322.621,"end":347.085,"text":"運安會對所有的行政機關我只要透過調查我認為你該改善的部分你沒有改善我告訴主委我如果是主委就對了這個部長哪一個部都一樣你準備要下台這個是人民生命財產的安全我運安會作為一個獨立機關我告訴你你要立即改善什麼避免下一個遺憾的事情再發生"},{"start":348.444,"end":374.762,"text":"我管理部長預算你要編幾年那是你部長的事情啊人命關天的事情在你部長的行政作為當中要排第一順位第二順位第三順位那是你行政部門的事我運安會只負責調查告訴你缺失在哪裡你該如何改善為什麼運安會主委今天站在這裡被立委罵站在這裡的應該是被你調查出來時至今天一大堆的理由包括預算不足人力不足一大堆的不足"},{"start":376.124,"end":397.76,"text":"不足我們就換一個能力好一點的部長或者局長或者署長而不是運安會站在這裡你是獨立機關你今天代表的是專業然後告訴這個行政機關你該怎麼做讓人民在任何空、陸、海各種運輸上面我只要搭乘"},{"start":399.158,"end":416.863,"text":"意外我不敢講,但是只要大家按照規矩走,那個意外發生的比例應該可以降到很低避免下一個遺憾,避免下一個事故再發生,這個才是大家對運安會的期許所以主委我的意思就要告訴你就是說,不用做神父啊"},{"start":421.121,"end":438.32,"text":"你就很勇敢的告訴大家你要怎麼做,那是你行政部門的事情啊你做部長你沒錢,你要趕去想辦法,要去行政院爭取要發揮部長的能力,要不然我們請這麼多部長是要做什麼就是要叫他們快點,這人民、姊妹的問題你要趕去想辦法去處理"},{"start":439.681,"end":466.162,"text":"然後呢時間主席已經站起來了比如說我不知道你們這樣調查出來之後如果這裡面涉及你看齁很多那個那個營建相關的這些公安啊我們都會用那個採購法101條把它移送對不對這些廠商怕得要死啊那運輸安全調查報告同樣一樣要這樣告訴行政機關或者你們想辦法自己來做處置就是對於如果像這些"},{"start":467.973,"end":474.246,"text":"運輸事故發生而涉及到這是施工的不良偷工減料施工設計不好等等"},{"start":475.333,"end":497.06,"text":"這個也應該要這樣做嘛我是不知道現在有沒有啦我只是舉個例子告訴你運安會應該要做到這樣這是人民的信任這是人民對運安會這個專業單位的信任所以我們要架構起運安會的權威跟專業這個才能夠確保人民的安全所有的行政機關這裡我覺得運安會說的他如果不謹記最好他每天去拜拜啦不然他準備要露台啊我跟你說"},{"start":501.909,"end":502.269,"text":"蔡其昌副院長"}]}},{"id":"151536","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151536","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3369267064acfc54de7f397fd65b575a832dcb4691eb09bf4e2f2e44bbea44e61d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖先翔","委員發言時間":"10:44:48 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knowledge，就是比較專業的領域的時候，還是要尊重那一組。"],["廖委員先翔：對啦，我們還是期待啦，如果運安會需要資源或是怎麼樣，我相信立法院會支持，只是說在相關事故的調查報告方面，真的，你們可以解釋，但是民眾都會有一個更好的期待，希望能夠把相關檢討報告的時間縮短，我們一起加油，好不好？麻煩主委。"],["林主任委員信得：是，謝謝委員。"],["廖委員先翔：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖先翔委員。","現在請蔡其昌副院長發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-8","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","林沛祥","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","游顥","林倩綺","洪孟楷","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","張啓楷","黃健豪","黃仁"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 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去探討了解一下他事故發生的原因然後來提出報告避免下一次事故的再發生嘛應該是這樣沒錯嗎是是"},{"start":49.603,"end":64.916,"text":"既然是要防止下一次事故的再發生就是說在我們調查的過程當中應該都每一天我們每報告提出來的之前的每一天其實都是一個潛在的一個風險對不對"},{"start":68.098,"end":84.836,"text":"因為我們看我們許多的運安會的檢討報告很多都拖了就是我不能講拖啦就是說調查的時間都還蠻長的一年或是兩年的一個時間那剛剛有聽其他委員詢問的時候我們大概一個月開一次會是不是"},{"start":87.318,"end":102.808,"text":"委員會是一直一個月開到委員會的審議的時候已經是在已經是最後階段最後階段了所以說就是業務單位可能收集資料一陣子了之後那可能資料比較完備了之後然後才提到委員會去對那個案子來做討論嘛對不對"},{"start":103.889,"end":118.886,"text":"是一開始的時候立案嘛那立案就要先前部隊去搜尋資料回來回來之後就開始做歸納那事實資料資料先出去然後開始進入訪談分析然後階段是很多啦"},{"start":120.083,"end":135.389,"text":"那我想確認一下就是在可能動輒一年兩年的這個過程當中會影響到我們調查報告出來要達到可能兩年這麼久的時間大部分的時間內部作業大概都是哪些程序佔用的最多的時間"},{"start":137.728,"end":158.617,"text":"是事實上是在分析的階段最多分析的階段最多分析因為有時候收集的資料收集完之後當在分析過程中發現好像有一部分不太明確會回去再去收集所以都在我們內部嗎如果說我們跟其他平行單位要資料的時候這部分有時候會拖到時間嗎應該不會應該不會我們要資料應該都還蠻快的嘛"},{"start":162.979,"end":188.411,"text":"那既然都是我們內部在處理的話那就撇除到外界的這個可能那個增長我們調查報告的時間嘛那一個事故我們需要到兩年才能夠把這個報告交出來那我就會覺得是不是還要檢討的空間啊你們我不是在苛責你們而是說希望在整個制度下面我們能夠把這個報告的時間縮短那你會認為說你們"},{"start":190.822,"end":207.54,"text":"需要怎麼樣的一個協助或者說你們可以提出怎樣的經濟措施可以讓這個報告能夠再縮短一點比如說一個飛安的事故兩年如果說我們能夠縮短到一年那這一年的時間那就確保了我們國人的飛行的安全多了一層保障嘛是這樣沒錯嗎"},{"start":208.973,"end":237.108,"text":"一般齁一般外面的理解是這樣子說啊你這個是這就剛剛委員講的啊怎麼這麼久齁是事實上當我們解釋之後啦齁你你你發生事故之後我們要去收集資料然後開始要測試要研究要邏輯分析然後會找出根本性的噪音然後相關的風險也要去去歸納去搜尋對不對他在提出對症的改善建議看起來好像我一分鐘就練完了但事實上他的過程是很長的"},{"start":238.109,"end":252.177,"text":"但是兩年而已,大家也會覺得太久。不一定都要兩年,看你這個案子是屬於一級案還是二級案還是三級案,不一定。那在國外也是這樣的類似的期程。那在我們的國情上是社會比較關注我們會加班的人力,加班或什麼。"},{"start":253.677,"end":277.552,"text":"所以不見得是就是每個案子就一直硬梆梆說就你你剛剛提的12個月或18個不見得我們可以可以加速但是同時也會很辛苦好啦那個要再拜託啦因為我看我們每一個組其實可以看到我們有不同的組別嘛有航空啊水路鐵道公路其實每一個組別的調派人力應該是不一樣的吧"},{"start":278.544,"end":297.991,"text":"大同小業 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預防的建議來跟中央單位跟交通部甚至跟地方政府來做一定程度溝通"},{"start":386.981,"end":387.582,"text":"林沛祥"}]}},{"id":"151534","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151534","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336026ebf053370e9757dee175bc8e0be1adcb4691eb09bf4e26869bf68ab9a87a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:48:01 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10:59:54","影片長度":"00:11:53","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-10"},"duration":713,"end_time":"2024-04-22T10:59:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T10:48:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":491,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時48分）謝謝主席，我們先請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。更正：現場有顏寬恒委員在，等顏委員發言完畢再休息。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好。有兩份公文請部長看一下。兩份都是今年3月15日發出，有一份是外交部函給財政部，另一份是財政部函給外交部，都是與駐美國蕭前大使奉調返國海運自用物品通關事宜相關。請問這兩份公文是真的還假的？"],["莊委員翠雲：有這兩份公文。"],["李委員坤城：有這兩份公文？"],["莊委員翠雲：對。"],["李委員坤城：若這兩份公文為真，那就要查一下這兩份公文是怎麼流出去的？這是要查的部分，另外我請教的是，整件事情被外界導向成蕭前大使有特權，網站上甚至還寫走私。請問財政部長，蕭大使在這件事情上有沒有特權？有沒有走私？"],["莊委員翠雲：一、沒有特權；二、不是走私。"],["李委員坤城：他是不是按照相關規定來處理？"],["莊委員翠雲：是的，因為我們國家、政府派駐到國外的人員奉調回國時所攜帶的自用物品，外交部依例都會行文財政部，都會依例辦理。所以去年就有55件這樣的案子回來，我們也依照規定做審核與答復。"],["李委員坤城：所以蕭大使也不是特例？"],["莊委員翠雲：不是特例。"],["李委員坤城：他就是按照相關規定辦理？"],["莊委員翠雲：對，駐外人員奉調回國時……"],["李委員坤城：按照關稅法第四十九條第一項第三款後段規定，第一，他不用許可執照；第二，他也不用查驗，是不是？"],["莊委員翠雲：也就是攜帶自用的酒，可以不需要申請進口酒類許可執照以及衛生查驗，因為是自用，而且是奉調回國的外交人員。"],["李委員坤城：蕭大使有附清單給你們嗎？"],["莊委員翠雲：外交部行文後面有附清單。"],["李委員坤城：後面附的清單大概是多少公升？"],["莊委員翠雲：清單裡面總共是23瓶，15.1公升，非常清楚。"],["李委員坤城：按照規定，只要按相關規定申報就不用許可證也可以不用查驗？"],["莊委員翠雲：是，但超過一公升依然要課關稅。"],["李委員坤城：也就是超過一公升的部分……"],["莊委員翠雲：依然要課稅！"],["李委員坤城：還是要課稅？"],["莊委員翠雲：都要課稅。"],["李委員坤城：目前看起來，第一，蕭大使有做申報，且由外交部行文財政部，財政部按照相關規定辦理。第二，雖然免查驗，但超過一公升的部分還是要報稅、還是要繳稅？"],["莊委員翠雲：當然！而且在進口到海關時，海關在查驗上也都按照海關查驗的相關規定辦理。"],["李委員坤城：蕭大使的這一批貨進來了嗎？"],["莊委員翠雲：沒有，目前沒有。"],["李委員坤城：目前還沒有進來？"],["莊委員翠雲：是。"],["李委員坤城：好，所以我認為這是認知作戰的一種，第一，我不知道公文是怎麼出去的？第二，公文反而證實了蕭大使有按照相關規定做申報？"],["莊委員翠雲：是、是。"],["李委員坤城：但因為一般民眾不知道，就轉換成好像有什麼特權可以帶酒回來，而且不用查驗。但其實按照相關規定，他本來就不用查驗啊！"],["莊委員翠雲：是，我們都按規定處理。"],["李委員坤城：而且超過一公升的部分還是要繳稅，對不對？"],["莊委員翠雲：要繳、要繳，所有的稅，包括關稅、營業稅、菸酒稅都要課徵。"],["李委員坤城：對，所以我想利用這個機會澄清一下，畢竟今天有媒體在做類似新聞。對此，你們有發新聞稿，我有看到。"],["莊委員翠雲：我們昨天就發了。"],["李委員坤城：蕭大使未來是我們的副總統，所以在520之前，類似相關的假錯訊息會越來越多，我希望相關部會在遇到這些假錯訊息時，要在第一時間立刻澄清。"],["莊委員翠雲：我們會本於事實與法令來做說明。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝部長。"],["莊委員翠雲：謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：接下來請金管會黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委，莊部長請回。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主委好。今天審查有關保險法第一百七十七條修正案，修改有關保險業務員之工作條件，含承攬、委任、僱傭、勞動契約等等，應由主管機關會同勞動部共同訂定，以維護廣大保險業務員之勞動權益，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是的。"],["李委員坤城：我今年2月才進來，但我有看到過去相關委員的提案，去年也辦過公聽會，對不對？大概去年3月的時候。"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，這議題定期都會有人提出來討論。"],["李委員坤城：我看金管會、保險局的態度都滿一致的，去年怎麼講，今年也是怎麼講，態度是滿一致的。對保險業務員來講，去年已經開過公聽會，今天局長也在這邊。他們主要有三大陳情，我再唸一下三大陳情，看看這一年到底有沒有做什麼改變或調整？等一下也請勞動部勞動關係司副司長一起上來。","保險業工會的三大陳情：第一，公司片面終止或修改與業務員的承攬契約，這是第一個；第二，承攬契約被終止後，續期保費佣金也消失；第三，獎懲不公，保險業務員對於獎懲──主要是懲罰，保險業務員認為不公。因為審查權是交由商業同業公會來執行，如果不服要申訴的話，也是由商業同業公會執行，變成球員兼裁判。我先請問一下，工會的三大陳情，在一年之後有沒有什麼改變？還是先請勞動部講一下？"],["主席：請勞動部。"],["黃副司長琦雅：委員好。針對保險公司和承攬從業人員之間的僱傭或委任相關爭議，勞動部為了要協助勞資雙方明確釐清到底是僱傭或委任，避免假承攬、真僱傭，我們其實有訂定一個勞動契約指導原則，有25項明確指標，如果勞雇雙方對於僱傭或委任有需要釐清的部分，都有相關的行政指導可以參考。"],["李委員坤城：請問局長，雖然勞動部有相關的行政指導，我剛才講的三大陳情，到現在有任何的改變嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：跟委員報告，關於片面修改勞務承攬契約的部分，其實我們一直都有在幫壽險公司的公會做一些協商，就契約內容有在討論。另外就是獎懲的部分，其實業務員的獎懲有兩個部分，一個是公司內部有一個獎懲委員會，在這個委員會裡面，我們有要求業者公司代表和業務員代表要均衡；在公會裡面也有一個獎懲委員會，這是第二層，如果你對公司內部還是覺得不公平可以跟公會反映，公會的部分……"],["李委員坤城：公會的「公」是公司的公嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：公司的「公」，但是我們要求裡面的專家學者要占一部分，業者代表和業務員代表兩邊要一致，也就是人數是相等的，這裡也有一些申訴機制。"],["李委員坤城：申訴的機制也是由那個公會來做處理，是不是？"],["施局長瓊華：對。"],["李委員坤城：這基本上是代表公司的，不是代表勞方的。"],["施局長瓊華：但是針對裡面的組成，我們要求它的社會公正人士代表要比較多一點，業者……"],["李委員坤城：其組成是多少人數比例？占多少？"],["施局長瓊華：真正的人數比例，我現在不是很記得，但是業者代表一定要跟業務員代表相等，如果2人的話，兩邊都要2人，學者大概會占到4人左右，這是平衡的機制。"],["李委員坤城：第二點，他的續期保費佣金呢？"],["施局長瓊華：關於續期保費佣金，因為這是他們過去在合約裡面訂定的，續期佣金有一部分是遞延的，有一部分是不是後面的服務報酬，這個是他們早期的契約關係，所以我們也請他們去釐清過，但是因為這牽涉到有些業務員同意，但是業務員代表裡面也有很多不同意是不是續期佣金的解釋，所以這是一個很複雜的關係。"],["李委員坤城：你們要怎麼處理這個很複雜的關係？因為這都還是在這個承攬關係之下，他與公司的契約，對不對？"],["施局長瓊華：對，因為這個是過去的簽約，如果業務員並沒有共識的話，我們比較不適合去介入他們的私權契約。"],["李委員坤城：如果有問題呢？有問題又回到你剛才講的，主要是由公司組成的公會來做處理嗎？"],["施局長瓊華：契約的部分沒有，獎懲的部分是指他有違反業務員管理規則裡面的那幾個招攬行為，才會有這樣的一個組織，至於勞務契約的內容，我們並沒有介入這個部分。"],["李委員坤城：我再請問勞動部，去年3月份的公聽會，勞動部有提出五大建議，到底有沒有建立一個勞資雙方的對話平臺？鼓勵勞資雙方簽團體協約，有沒有？"],["黃副司長琦雅：鼓勵勞資雙方簽團體協約是我們勞動部一直在努力的方向。"],["李委員坤城：還沒有做就對了？"],["黃副司長琦雅：我們是有相關的獎勵措施，部裡面其實也對公會有維持持續對話，他們到部裡面拜訪，我們也有直接輔導他們如何協商。"],["李委員坤城：我檢視去年3月份公聽會勞動部提出的五大建議，我聽到現在為止，有可能都還沒有落實，如果有落實的地方再請金管會給我相關的資料，好不好？謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們會提供，謝謝。"],["主席：請李彥秀委員發言。下一位請顏寬恒委員準備，然後我們就休息一下。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 案；\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案","agenda_id":"1133201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.03909375,"end":2.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.22471875,"end":2.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.37659375,"end":2.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.684093750000001,"end":10.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.63221875,"end":14.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.960968750000003,"end":20.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.95221875,"end":19.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.59721875,"end":21.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.96846875,"end":22.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.81221875,"end":22.829093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.829093750000002,"end":23.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.57159375,"end":23.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.58846875,"end":25.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.91721875,"end":28.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.97159375,"end":37.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.64534375,"end":41.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.45909375,"end":46.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.40346875,"end":48.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":49.99784375,"end":52.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.094718750000006,"end":60.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.52784375,"end":60.88221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.05096875,"end":63.531593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.767843750000004,"end":65.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.18096875,"end":68.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.40846875,"end":75.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.20471875,"end":81.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.58784375,"end":83.86596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.93346875,"end":85.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.16096875000001,"end":87.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.61221875000001,"end":88.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":88.99596875,"end":91.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":91.18971875000001,"end":94.83471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":94.95284375,"end":115.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.54221875,"end":103.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.97971875,"end":112.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.97096875000001,"end":117.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":115.57409375,"end":119.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.26971875000001,"end":124.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.31534375000001,"end":124.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":124.38284375,"end":125.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.88909375,"end":130.54221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":130.37346875,"end":146.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.15784375,"end":133.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.27971875,"end":136.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.51596875,"end":136.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.66221875000002,"end":148.59846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":148.59846875000002,"end":151.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.41659375,"end":151.66971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":151.66971875000002,"end":154.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":154.25159375,"end":161.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.63971875000001,"end":156.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.30534375000002,"end":166.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.99221875,"end":171.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":171.54846875,"end":179.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.88596875000002,"end":171.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.96596875,"end":173.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.73784375000002,"end":176.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.38721875000002,"end":180.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.42471875,"end":194.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":192.22034375,"end":200.60721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.53971875000002,"end":203.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":200.62409375000001,"end":200.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":203.37471875,"end":204.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.96096875,"end":222.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":205.78784375,"end":205.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":205.88909375,"end":206.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":206.02409375000002,"end":206.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":206.04096875000002,"end":206.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":206.05784375000002,"end":206.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.69659375,"end":233.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":230.40846875000003,"end":230.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":234.18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有兩份公文 請部長看一下那這個都是在這個今年的3月15號那一部 有一個公文是外交部喊給財政部的那有一個是財政部喊給外交部的那都是有關於這個我們 這個駐美國的這個肖前大使這個 諷調反國海運自用物品通關的事情那請問一下 這兩份公文是真的還假的"},{"start":50.051,"end":64.827,"text":"有這兩份公文有這兩份公文那如果這兩份公文為真的話那就要去查一下這兩份公文是什麼流出去的那這個是有一部分要去查那另外一個呢"},{"start":66.206,"end":88.394,"text":"另外一個就是說那我請教一下那整件事情這個被這個外界導向成說這個肖嫻大使有這個特權然後這個甚至呢這個在這個外面的這個網站上面還寫說他走私那請問一下這個我們財政部長那肖大使這件事情上面有沒有特權有沒有走私"},{"start":89.039,"end":113.603,"text":"一、沒有特權二、不是走私對那他是不是按照這個相關的規定來處理是的因為我們的國家政府派駐到國外的人員奉調回國的時候他攜帶的自用物品回來那外交部依例都會行文給財政部都會依例的所以在去年就有55案這樣的案子回來那我們也依照規定來做"},{"start":113.983,"end":130.346,"text":"所以秀娜姐也不是特例嗎?她就是按照這個相關的規定嗎?就是按照你們關稅法第49條第一項跟第三款的後段嗎?就是說第一個她不用這個許可的執照那第二個呢她也不用查驗嘛是不是?"},{"start":130.486,"end":150.944,"text":"也就是說他攜帶自用的酒,第一個是自用攜帶的酒那他可以不需要申請那個進口酒類的許可執照以及那個衛生查驗這個部分因為他是自用而且他是奉調回國的外交人員那他們有附,那個蕭大使有附清單給你嗎外交部的行文來有附後面的清單"},{"start":152.165,"end":177.489,"text":"那附後面清單是大概是多少公升?清單裡面總共第一個是23坪然後15.1公升是,非常清楚,是好,那所以說按照規定的話他只要是按照相關的規定來申報然後就是可以不用有這個許可證那也可以不用這個查驗嘛是,但是稅還是依然超過1公升依然是要課關稅就是超過1公升的部分依然要課稅還是要課稅,對,對,對啊所以說什麼"},{"start":180.49,"end":206.756,"text":"目前看起來就是說肖大使第一個他要來做申報然後外交部來為你們財政部那財政部說按照相關規定可以那就是說比如說免查驗但是超過一公升的還是要報稅嘛還是要繳稅嘛而且在進口到海關的時候海關的查驗也都是按照他們海關查驗的相關規定來辦理的是好那肖大使的這一批貨進來了嗎沒有沒有目前沒有目前還沒有進來是是是好"},{"start":207.296,"end":233.475,"text":"所以說這個我也認為說是認知作戰的一種就是說第一個這個公文我不知道是怎麼出去的那第二個這個公文反而證實了說其實蕭大使他是有按照相關的規定來做申報的那可是呢因為他這個有一般民眾不知道他就把它轉換成說好像有什麼退權可以帶酒回來這個好像不用查驗那可是我們按照相關規定他本來就可以不用查驗啊"},{"start":234.275,"end":257.29,"text":"是,我們都按規定來處理的而且只要超過1公升,他還是要繳稅嘛對不對要繳所有的稅,關稅、營業稅跟菸酒稅都要扣的那就是我想利用這個機會要再澄清一下不然今天我看這個有相關的媒體也在做類似的新聞當然你們有發新聞稿啦我有看到有的,我們昨天就發了那我認為說這個東西就是說因為蕭大使未來是我們的副總統"},{"start":258.49,"end":259.051,"text":"黃主委 現在請黃主委 莊部長請回"},{"start":281.626,"end":302.346,"text":"主委好,今天我們有一個關於保險法第177條的修正案那這個就是說要修改的這個規定裡面就是說它的工作條件含承攬、委任、雇佣、勞動契約等等就是應該由這個主管機關會同勞動部共同訂定以維護廣大保險業務源之勞動權益嘛對不對"},{"start":304.688,"end":317.88,"text":"是的我雖然是今年2月才進來可是我也看過這個相關的這個過去相關的委員的提案那甚至在去年也有辦過這個相關的公聽會嘛對不對大概去年3月的時候"},{"start":318.362,"end":335.811,"text":"有這個議題是定期都會有人提出來大家討論的對,然後呢我看是大概這個金管會或是說保險局這個態度都蠻一致的因為就去年我看去年這個怎麼講今年也是怎麼講態度是蠻一致的啦那我是覺得說那對於這個保險業務員來講"},{"start":339.173,"end":352.342,"text":"昨年開了這個公聽會 他們主要有三大陳情 那三大陳情我再念一下 那我看說這一年到底有沒有做什麼改變或是調整 那等一下我請這個勞動部的勞動關係師 今天是副市長過來嗎 來也請"},{"start":358.607,"end":373.16,"text":"這個保險業工會還有三大懲刑第一個就是說公司片面終止或修改與業務員的承攬契約這是第一個第二個承攬契約被終止之後續期保費佣金也消失第三個是獎懲不公的問題因為就是說如果這個保險業務員他對於這個"},{"start":379.618,"end":381.239,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書 »:"},{"start":406.872,"end":410.297,"text":"還是我們先請這個勞動部先來講一下好了請勞動部"},{"start":414.977,"end":440.67,"text":"針對保險公司跟承染重驗人員的雇佣或委任相關的爭議其實勞動部為了要協助勞資雙方明確釐清到底是雇佣或委任然後避免假承染真雇佣我們其實有訂定一個勞動契約指導原則那明確有25項的指標如果勞務雙方對於相關雇佣或委任有相關的需要釐清的都有相關的行政指導可以參考"},{"start":441.65,"end":452.278,"text":"那我問一下局長好了就是說那現在雖然說這個勞動部有相關的行政指導那我請問一下我剛才講的三大曾經這個到現在有任何的改變嗎?"},{"start":454.213,"end":474.639,"text":"我跟委員報告一下就是片面修改勞務承攬契約的部分其實我們一直都有在幫工會跟授權公司的工會有做一些協商就那個契約內容有在討論那另外就是那個獎懲的部分其實業務員的獎懲其實是兩個部分一個就是公司內部有一個獎懲的委員會"},{"start":481.701,"end":507.554,"text":"那這個委員會裡面我們要求它業者就是說公司代表跟業務員代表要均衡那另外在工會裡面也有一個講成委員會也就是它這個是第二層的如果你在公司內部你覺得還是不公平就可以跟工會那工會的部分其實我們那個工會的工是公司的工嘛是不是公司的工但是但是它裡面喔"},{"start":509.375,"end":522.324,"text":"陳秀寳等19人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅"},{"start":526.467,"end":552.928,"text":"生疏的機制也是那個公司的公會來做處理吧?這個基本上是代表公司的啊,不是代表勞方的啊。但是裡面的那個組成我們讓它就是社會公正人士代表比較多一點。你們組成齁,那我講說多少人數比例是佔多少勒?真正的人數比例我現在不是很記得,但是業者的代表一定要跟那個業務員代表兩個,如果他是兩個的話就"},{"start":554.591,"end":555.833,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":571.173,"end":586.747,"text":"續期佣金的部分有一部分是遞延的有一部分是不是他的那個後面的服務報酬因為這個是他們早期的契約關係啦所以我們也請他們去釐清過但是因為牽涉到的是有些業務員同意"},{"start":588.268,"end":609.616,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":609.716,"end":625.937,"text":"因為他這個是過去的簽約啦,那業務員如果他並沒有共識的話,這個事情我們比較不適合去介入他的失選企業。對,那如果有問題咧?有問題又回到就是說,我剛才講就是說又是由,主要是由公司組成的公會來做處理嗎?"},{"start":626.758,"end":627.939,"text":"我再請問一下勞動部,去年是3月份公聽會勞動部有五大建議"},{"start":651.656,"end":657.124,"text":"那我請問一下那到底有沒有建立一個勞資雙方的建立對話平台鼓勵勞資雙方簽團體協約有沒有啊"},{"start":660.617,"end":684.446,"text":"鼓勵勞資雙方簽團體協約是我們勞動部一直在努力的方向就還沒有做就對了我們是有相關的獎勵的這個措施那我們部裡面其實也對工會其實有維持持續對話的一個到部裡面拜訪我們也有直接做輔導他們如何協商就是我解釋就是去年3月份的這個工廳會這個勞動部的這個五大建議"},{"start":688.127,"end":691.228,"text":"接下來請李燕秀李委員下一位嚴寬衡 嚴委員請準備然後我們就休息一下"}]}},{"id":"151533","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151533","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3360288caeb443de328cff82116bdf94ca8dcb4691eb09bf4e2cdf6c09f5ba7292b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"10:42:58 - 10:53:39","影片長度":"00:10:41","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":641,"end_time":"2024-04-22T10:53:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T10:42:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":663,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（10時43分）好，謝謝薛部長。今天是針對噪音管制的問題，我們瞭解世界衛生組織針對住宅區戶外平均的音量是以55分貝來做建議的標準，經過我們調查的結果顯示，75到80分貝會讓人感覺吵雜、不舒適，在50到55分貝以下我們會感覺比較舒適，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["涂委員權吉：針對這一部分，環境部有沒有針對住宅區的音量設計類似的標準？"],["薛部長富盛：關於住宅區的部分，我請張司長來回答。"],["張司長順欽：跟委員報告，我們在噪音管制的方面就是以管制區的概念來劃設，分成四大類，像住宅區、工業區或者是住商混合區等等，會有分類，那分類有分類的標準，這個標準因時間的不同，在白天跟晚上的標準又不一樣。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們針對各個區塊都有設一些噪音管制的標準，那我也讓大家瞭解一下，我們來看從2021年到2023年的統計資料，我們看到從2021年開始，桃園龜山、基隆、新北樹林、新北淡水、臺北萬華、高雄在這兩年的時間就發生了因為噪音而殺人的事件，而且據我們瞭解，這幾個事件的共同點就是幾乎都發生在集合式住宅或者社區，針對這個部分，環境部有沒有針對社區噪音所造成的影響做過相關研究，有沒有提出一些因應的辦法？"],["薛部長富盛：跟涂委員報告，對這種社區、鄰里之間的一些爭執，事實上可能是警察單位來負責，譬如說，樓上唱卡拉OK的聲音很大還是怎麼樣，他們通常應該是會向警政單位檢舉。"],["涂委員權吉：其實我今天之所以會提出這個問題，就是因為我希望環境部能夠重視噪音所造成的影響。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["涂委員權吉：其實管委會的功能很重要，所以也希望環境部結合內政部還有衛福部能夠針對這些部分做一些研究，希望各部會能夠提出一些方法，儘量讓這些悲劇不要再發生。"],["薛部長富盛：我認同涂委員的建議，這應該真的是要跨部會。"],["涂委員權吉：對，我希望做一些研究，看是不是能夠在發生之前提出一些因應的方法和改善措施。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["涂委員權吉：希望你們能夠超前部署，不要讓這些悲劇一再的發生。"],["薛部長富盛：好，涂委員的這個建議非常正面，非常好，我認同。"],["涂委員權吉：針對噪音的部分，我們知道噪音其實最大宗應該是車輛的噪音，從去年開始，桃園市長張善政在上任以後有推出一個靜桃專案，因為對桃園市的車輛噪音民眾反映了很多年，反映給很多的單位，都一直沒有辦法解決，造成民眾很大的困擾，後來我們發現在推了這個靜桃專案之後，從去年6月份開始設了50處稽查點，整個陳情案件就明顯下降了14%，環境部是不是對這個靜桃專案有做一些瞭解？"],["薛部長富盛：是的，我們環境部有補助桃園市27部噪音檢測設備，所以各位看到的這一部應該就是屬於這一類。"],["涂委員權吉：它就是科技執法嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對，用科技執法的方式，而且是全天候，所以不管白天、夜間事實上都可以，這個應該是有嚇阻的效果。"],["涂委員權吉：對，我們後來有研究，其實這個靜桃專案要歸功於聲音照相的科技執法，因為以前稽查的困難度在於要配合警察局、環保局、監理站等各單位設臨檢點來聯合稽查，才有辦法取締，所以造成它的難度很高，後來在進行聲音照相科技執法之後，發現這個成效很好，環境部、行政院針對這一部分好像有提出預算，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是，跟涂委員報告，原本是從112年到116年編列這裡面講的1.9億購買306套，因為現在大家的需求非常殷切，我們已經把時間縮短到明年底就來完成將請購的306套給地方政府，事實上，剛剛也有很多委員非常贊成、也非常支持我們，所以我們希望115年接下來再有一個3年或4年的計畫來加速購買更多的設備，因為現在噪音的確對大家的生活品質方面造成很大的影響。"],["涂委員權吉：剛剛我們也有聽到王育敏委員說這306套好像單是臺中市就拿走了50套，所以是不是針對這個預算的部分……"],["薛部長富盛：是他們的申請，臺中市申請，還沒有拿……"],["涂委員權吉：提出申請但是沒有核准？"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["涂委員權吉：其實重點在於大家都覺得科技執法這個部分的成效非常好……"],["薛部長富盛：是，有這樣的需求。"],["涂委員權吉：所以各縣市都希望能夠增加這個科技執法的設備來嚇阻車輛所造成的噪音問題。"],["薛部長富盛：好，我們來跟行政院反映。"],["涂委員權吉：所以凸顯這一塊，針對這一塊的預算，我相信很多委員都會支持。"],["薛部長富盛：好，也請涂委員來支持。"],["涂委員權吉：也希望能夠對車輛的噪音做一個很好的改善。"],["薛部長富盛：好，我們會積極來努力，爭取更多預算來投入到噪音的科技執法。"],["涂委員權吉：好，其實除了車輛噪音之外，像我們桃園市受飛機所產生的交通噪音影響，因為桃園市有我們全臺灣最大的國際機場，所以它也是全國航空噪音最嚴重的地方，像我們大園、觀音、蘆竹、新屋、中壢都受飛機噪音的影響，而且未來我們馬上要增設第三跑道，所以我們認為這個噪音的危害會更嚴重。基本上，關於這部分，環境部部長這邊針對增設第三跑道以後，噪音的問題一定會擴大影響，有沒有什麼因應措施、作為？"],["薛部長富盛：因為民航的部分可能是交通部的權責範圍，是不是可以請交通部來……"],["涂委員權吉：好，沒關係……"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，我這邊是公共運輸司，是針對車輛的部分，航空的部分……"],["涂委員權吉：好，沒關係。針對我們環境部噪音管制法之規定，這個防制區2年就要檢討1次，2021年已經檢討過1次，正常的話，2023年就要檢討，那2024年我們有這個規劃嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：有，我覺得我們應該要定期檢討，看看有哪些地方不足，當然委員假如有更好的一些建議或想法，像桃園是屬於航空城，所以的確有一個特殊的需要。"],["涂委員權吉：之前可能是疫情的關係，現在疫情已經慢慢趨緩，飛機的架次從之前的22.5萬，現在又恢復到31萬，可是全盛時期是52萬，我們現在認為第三跑道再增設下去，飛機的架次一定會更多，針對噪音防制的部分，噪音有可能會擴大影響到更多民眾，所以針對噪音防制的部分，希望能夠再重新檢討，讓我們的民眾能夠分配到他應該有的噪音防制回饋金。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["涂委員權吉：在這邊也要跟部長討論一下，針對噪音防制費的計收方式，之前應該是最大起飛重量還有起飛音量，現在比利時也有針對飛機機齡的部分納入新生效的關稅制度，那飛機機齡是不是也可以納入噪音防制回饋金的部分去做這個計收的方式？"],["薛部長富盛：飛機的機齡，這個我想當然我們會請交通部來考量，但是我個人覺得應該他會是考慮產生的噪音，包括能源的效率等等其他因素，至於機齡，我跟涂委員分享一下，今年我們在2月初到3月初，不是跟美國NASA合作做中南部的空氣品質、三度空間的測試嗎？美國那一架飛機是54年的DC8機型，機齡54年了，結果它有辦法在我們的跑道裡面大概十來公尺就低飛，然後去蒐集我們整個中南部包括臺南機場、花蓮機場的空氣品質，所以我個人的感覺是，機齡有時候也很難去當作一個標準，因為裡面可能發動機還是什麼都會更新。"],["涂委員權吉：好，針對這部分，也希望針對噪音防制的規定，讓受影響的居民能夠得到他們應有的回饋。"],["薛部長富盛：我認同、我認同。"],["涂委員權吉：好，感謝，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝涂委員。"],["主席：謝謝涂權吉委員。接下來請王正旭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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的建議 這個應該是真的要跨部位對 我希望說做一些研究 是不是在這之前能夠提出一些因應的方法、一些改善措施希望能夠超前部署 不要讓這些悲劇一再的發生涂元這個建議非常正面、非常好 我認同"},{"start":208.078,"end":233.534,"text":"那針對噪音的部分其實我們知道噪音其實最大宗應該是車輛的噪音那從去年開始桃園市長張三正上來以後有推出一個淨桃專案因為桃園市針對這個車輛噪音這個民眾反映很多年反映給很多的單位都一直沒有辦法解決造成民眾很大的困擾後來我們發現推這個淨桃專案之後"},{"start":236.936,"end":254.809,"text":"從去年6月份開始他設了稽查點設了50處然後這整個陳情案件就明顯下降了14%那是不是我們環境部對這個淨桃專案有做一些瞭解是的我們環境部補助的桃園市有27部的"},{"start":256.73,"end":275.887,"text":"啊這個噪音的這個檢測的這個設備所以各位看到的這一部應該也是就是屬於這一類他就是科技執法嘛對不對對用科技執法的方式他前天齁所以事實上不管不管白天夜間事實上都可以那這個應該是有嚇阻的效果"},{"start":276.347,"end":302.689,"text":"對其實我們後來研究其實他這個淨濤專案他要歸功在這個聲音跟照相的科技執法因為以前稽查的困難度在於說他要配合警察局、環保局、監理站等各單位設這個臨檢點聯合稽查才有辦法取締所以造成他的難度很高後來發現這個聲音照相科技執法之後發現這個成效很好"},{"start":305.091,"end":328.18,"text":"那是不是針對這一部分我們環境部行政院好像針對這一部分好像有提出預算對不對是給涂權報告原本是從112到116編列這裡面講的1.9億購買306套那因為現在大家需求非常這個殷切我們已經把時間縮短到明年底就來完成這個請購的306套給地方政府"},{"start":332.742,"end":349.207,"text":"那未來事實上剛剛也很多委員非常贊成也非常支持我們所以我們希望說115接下來再有一個三年或四年計畫來加速購買更多的這個設備因為的確現在噪音造成大家在生活"},{"start":351.89,"end":367.068,"text":"對,因為剛剛我們有聽到王毓民委員提出說這個306套好像單就臺中市好像就拿走了50套所以是不是針對這個預算的部分他們的申請,臺中市申請嘛,他申請沒有核准"},{"start":369.15,"end":396.505,"text":"其實重點在於說大家都覺得這個科技執法這個部分成效非常好所以各縣市都希望能夠增加這個科技執法的設備來嚇阻這個車輛所造成的噪音的問題那所以涂權這一塊希望針對這一塊的預算我相信很多委員都會支持那也希望說能夠把我們這個車輛的噪音做一個很好的改善"},{"start":397.245,"end":419.806,"text":"我們會積極來努力爭取更多預算來投入到噪音的這個科技執法好那其實除了車輛噪音之外像我們桃園市飛機所影響這個交通噪音因為桃園市有我們全台灣最大的國際機場那所以它的航空噪音也是全國最嚴重的地方"},{"start":420.306,"end":420.506,"text":"因為這個民航的部分齁"},{"start":449.008,"end":449.028,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":462.956,"end":480.453,"text":"我們報告我今天是我這邊是公共運輸室是針對車輛的部分、航空的部分好沒關係那針對我們環境部我們噪音防治法規定它這個防治區兩年就要檢討一次可是2021年已經檢討一次正常2023年就要檢討那是不是2024年我們有這個規劃嗎"},{"start":486.338,"end":501.275,"text":"我覺得我們應該是定期要來檢討,看看有哪些地方不足。當然委員只要有更好的一些建議或想法,像桃園它是屬於航空城,所以的確有一個特殊的需要。"},{"start":502.25,"end":529.133,"text":"因為之前當然可能疫情的關係啦那現在慢慢疫情已經趨緩那從之前飛機的架次又從22.5萬現在又恢復到31萬可是它全盛時期是52萬我們現在認為第三跑道再增設下去我們這飛機的架次一定會更多是不是針對這個噪音防制有可能會擴大影響到更多的民眾所以"},{"start":530.715,"end":547.755,"text":"針對這個噪音防制希望能夠再重新檢討讓我們的民眾能夠分配到他應該有的噪音防制回饋金那在這邊也跟部長這邊討論一下喔就是因為針對我們噪音防制我們的寄收方式"},{"start":548.976,"end":570.731,"text":"從之前應該是最大起飛的重量還有我們的起飛的音量現在比利時也有針對飛機機零的部分也納入新生效的關稅制度那是不是也針對飛機機零這部分是不是也可以納入這噪音防制這個回饋金的部分去做這個計收的方式"},{"start":571.471,"end":573.272,"text":"吉林吉林吉林吉林吉林吉林吉林吉林"},{"start":592.344,"end":606.992,"text":"二月初到三月初不是跟美國NASA做中南部的這個空氣品質三度空間的那個測試嗎那美國那一架飛機是54年的DC-8的那個機型"},{"start":608.113,"end":626.712,"text":"54年結果他有辦法在我們的跑道裡面大概是10來公尺就低飛然後去蒐集我們整個中南部包括台南機場、花蓮機場的空氣品質所以我個人的感覺是機零有時候也很難去當作一個標準因為裡面的可能發動機還是什麼都會更新"},{"start":627.293,"end":638.17,"text":"那針對這部份也希望說針對噪音防制規定能夠讓這個受影響的居民能夠得到他們應有的回饋我認同我認同好感謝謝謝部長謝謝涂委員謝謝涂權吉委員接下來請"}]}},{"id":"151532","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151532","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336b0a05e8fe59850f197e999b50eca937cdcb4691eb09bf4e2e66f7ef465b44ce75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:38:27 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10:50:48","影片長度":"00:12:21","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計8案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計1案。\n三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。\n四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案。）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-13"},"duration":741,"end_time":"2024-04-22T10:50:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T10:38:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":402,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時38分）謝謝吳召委，我們有請李秘書長。"],["主席：好，請李秘書長。"],["李秘書長孟諺：召委好。"],["高金委員素梅：秘書長好。請問一下，您在秘書長任內幾年了？"],["李秘書長孟諺：5年。"],["高金委員素梅：5年，很長一段時間了，對不對？"],["李秘書長孟諺：是。"],["高金委員素梅：秘書長的工作是做什麼？簡單的說明。"],["李秘書長孟諺：是，包括各部會陳上來給院長的公文，我們會先核閱。"],["高金委員素梅：所以包括今天的解凍案各部會的一些說明，應該也在行政院會裡面要經過行政院長這樣子的同意，然後您再跟各部會來做協調、協商對嗎？"],["李秘書長孟諺：相關的有授權或者我們會先審閱過。"],["高金委員素梅：好，您知道嗎？你做一天和尚，要撞一天鐘，今天行政院113年度單位預算解凍報告，這是在立法院朝野共同要解凍的案子，解凍的金額不多，但是您看裡面的說明非常的敷衍，我覺得做一天和尚就要撞一天鐘，你們到底有沒有用心在解決今天召委排的解凍案，從你們的報告跟態度就可以清楚知道。我先恭喜您要升任我們的交通部部長，而您的專業在水利，你的專長是在水利，在行政院裡面，你當秘書長一直到現在5年了，但是你的解凍報告案，我認為是非常失望，希望你未來到了交通部的時候，你的態度不要如此，否則不是全民之福，謝謝你。","3月5號，我對陳建仁院長就原住民的原家中心議題進行了總質詢，當時陳院長承諾在520之前會核定計畫，而且交辦相關部會，必須在3月底把計畫報行政院查核，而原民會也在3月底以前，把完整的而且修正完的計畫送到衛福部的社家署了。請問秘書長，衛福部有沒有把計畫陳報行政院，這你應該清楚吧？很重要的，這是院長在總質詢的時候答應我的，包括部長也在，您知道嗎？"],["李秘書長孟諺：是，我瞭解這個事情，目前院的林政務委員，他有在去年的11月8號邀集衛福部跟原民會研商……"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，我講的是3月5號我的總質詢，當時院長就已經告訴我，要在3月底的時候把這個計畫報行政院查核，所以我還嘲笑會不會拖到520之前，他說最後一天都會送到，那3月底原民會已經把修正的計畫書報到社家署了。"],["李秘書長孟諺：對，原民會是在2月6號跟3月27送到衛福部……"],["高金委員素梅：所以行政院長核定了沒有？"],["李秘書長孟諺：據我瞭解是還在研擬中，最近應該就會送上來。"],["高金委員素梅：還在研擬中啊！我3月5號已經在關心這件事情了，而且我裡面提的內容，其實衛福部長也好，行政院院長都非常的認同啊！為什麼流程那麼冗長？"],["李秘書長孟諺：他們兩個譬如包括……"],["高金委員素梅：你明天要告訴我這件事情到底能不能OK？"],["李秘書長孟諺：是，我想對原民的弱勢或是社會的照顧……"],["高金委員素梅：不要在這邊講這些東西了，大家都支持了，包括行政院長，院長、部長都告訴我520之前會核定這個計畫，今天幾號了，秘書長？"],["李秘書長孟諺：對，我想這個部分，我們會再催……"],["高金委員素梅：明天能不能告訴我？可以嗎？還是現在請他們趕快打電話，待會就到我的辦公室裡面來做說明，連這麼一點點小事，而且是凝聚社會共識的問題，你還要拖那麼長，我都很擔心你當交通部部長的時候，您的執行力會怎樣！"],["李秘書長孟諺：我想對原住民的照顧是不會打折扣……"],["高金委員素梅：不用再回應了啦，不要照顧！我們原住民不要照顧，我們只要一些合理的對待好嗎？你們經常在講對原住民的照顧，好像額外給我們什麼東西耶！"],["李秘書長孟諺：不會，不會，這是誤會。"],["高金委員素梅：我們今天來看一下，警察不在籍投票的推動情形，你們告訴我說要凝聚社會共識之後再推動進行修法作業，又是一個很含糊，原住民族或者是所有的警察不能夠去投票，你們是剝奪了憲法保障他們的投票權耶！請問一下，今天已經要解凍你們的預算了，還看不到一個具體的方式，請問一下你的具體方式是什麼？簡要說明。"],["李秘書長孟諺：第一，我們現在就是已經送到貴院，針對全國性的公民投票，先來推動不在籍投票……"],["高金委員素梅：我知道啊！我要問的是你們怎麼樣凝聚社會共識？你們是開公聽會還是說明會還是研討會還是問卷調查？如果要舉辦會議，請問一年要辦幾場？預計在幾年之內可以收集這些輿情？如果是問卷調查，可以充分收集各年齡層、各族群的意見嗎？我再更具體的問你就是這樣，不要用這種敷衍的方式，請回答。"],["李秘書長孟諺：是，我想我們是期待公民投票如果順利的來推動不在籍投票之後，下一階段……"],["高金委員素梅：我知道公民投票，但那個之後才要談到所謂的不在籍投票要幾年？請你告訴我大概要幾年？"],["李秘書長孟諺：是，如果順利的推動，我覺得其他選舉的不在籍投票，因為如果是像立委、像議員，票的種類會非常的繁多……"],["高金委員素梅：這個話我們已經聽多了啦，在這個委員會也聽多了啦，請你告訴我要幾年？"],["李秘書長孟諺：在執行面確實是……"],["高金委員素梅：你已經要離開這個秘書長的位置了，請問一下，到底要幾年？"],["李秘書長孟諺：我想我們先推這個不在籍投票之後，接著……"],["高金委員素梅：不在籍投票，我現在不就是問你不在籍投票嗎？"],["李秘書長孟諺：全國公投的部分……"],["高金委員素梅：我沒有跟你說全國公投的部分耶！"],["李秘書長孟諺：對，這個部分如果推動順利，各界也沒有其他的……"],["高金委員素梅：好啦！你是鸚鵡喔？謝謝你，秘書長，我很擔心，我再講一次，我很擔心你任交通部部長的時候，你會怎麼樣去執行，尤其是我們現在花東地區交通的問題，如果是按照你這樣子鸚鵡式的回答的話，全民會反撲，尤其是花蓮地區的族人。","再來我跟你討論少子化的推動情形，行政院你們在報告裡面這樣說，本院已經建立跨部會的運作機制了，由上而下整合11個部會的資源。而在112到113年主要精進策略包括放寬育兒津貼還有托育補助，然後調降托嬰中心的照顧比以及幼兒園師生比、放寬政府住宅協助措施的經濟或者是社會弱勢資格、擴大幼兒學前特別扣除額適用範疇與提高額度，這是你的書面報告。以上策略我都給予支持，但是有一點我必須要再譴責一下，我認為政府對於偏鄉原鄉的漠視，就是我們在制定政策的時候都是以都會區為基準點，也都是以都會區的狀況為精進考量，從來都沒有把偏鄉跟原住民地區的困境反映在你們的政策上。","我談幾個問題，例如原鄉連一間零到二歲的托育機構都沒有，您知道嗎？然後您知道嗎？原鄉和偏鄉的合格保母人數有幾位？是零。我相信主政機關你們都有這些數據，但是行政院，這有納入你們的政策考量嗎？還是在行政院眼睛裡面，偏鄉和原鄉的隔代教育問題一點都不需要托育需求？是這樣子嗎？秘書長。"],["李秘書長孟諺：我想我們絕對是一視同仁的看待……"],["高金委員素梅：好，如果不是的話，你覺得應該怎麼處理？"],["李秘書長孟諺：原鄉跟偏鄉這些處所比較少，這個我想後面還可以再繼續……"],["高金委員素梅：後面跟誰一起討論？"],["李秘書長孟諺：就是我們院裡面還是會持續的討論，包括原民會、衛福部……"],["高金委員素梅：520之前能不能告訴我一個說法？今天就要解凍你們的案子了。"],["李秘書長孟諺：好，我們再補充資料。"],["高金委員素梅：你認為幾號？這個禮拜還是下個禮拜到我辦公室？"],["李秘書長孟諺：這我們再來安排，本週就可以……"],["高金委員素梅：我在這邊要求您，這個禮拜就到我辦公室來，好不好？展現您的決心。"],["李秘書長孟諺：是，也跟委員報告，其實這段時間推動這些政策以來，平均每個已婚的夫婦生的胎數已經從1.1胎到1.5胎……"],["高金委員素梅：沒有，我在跟你講原住民跟偏鄉的問題啊！"],["李秘書長孟諺：是。"],["高金委員素梅：我接著下來才要跟你說已婚少子化的問題啊！你好像知道我的題目一樣。"],["李秘書長孟諺：沒有、沒有。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。我現在再問你少子化的問題，少子化當然是有非常多的問題，我自己認為你們對於孕婦的部分提得很少，例如產假、育嬰假、孕婦或母親的工作權，或者是母親的餵養，還是產後心理的協調還有諮商，或者是友善親子場域、社會對於孕婦還有母親角色的框架等等，因為生完孩子以後，不僅僅是母親的角色，父親應該也要擔任他的角色，大家都以為生了孩子都是母親的角色，所以我們是不是應該要來重視一下孕婦的產前、產後的各項照顧，還有孩子生下來以後的育兒環境？你認為呢？"],["李秘書長孟諺：是，我想這個是非常重要的一環，像育嬰假本來只有六成薪，目前我們已經把它提升到八成薪……"],["高金委員素梅：我知道。"],["李秘書長孟諺：夫婦都可以來申請。"],["高金委員素梅：我知道，在你的報告裡面也有說，我剛剛講的就是產婦的其他問題，希望你們一併來討論一下好不好？"],["李秘書長孟諺：好。"],["高金委員素梅：還有一個問題是新生代不婚不育的原因，特別是不婚，我覺得行政院你們應該要跨部會來盤點問題，釐清所有的問題之後再針對相關政策來擬訂改善的空間和計畫，你認為應該這樣子吧？"],["李秘書長孟諺：對，沒錯，現在其實我們……"],["高金委員素梅：對症下藥是很重要的，而不是頭痛醫頭、腳痛醫腳，我剛剛提到這些問題幾乎都是跨部會的問題，所以行政院秘書長的工作就很重要，你在這5年當中，想必你比我更清楚，可是如果要我給你打分數的話，這5年來，就剛剛幾個案子的解凍案，我覺得還是有待精進耶！"],["李秘書長孟諺：是，我想跟委員報告……"],["高金委員素梅：你給自己的評分是多少？"],["李秘書長孟諺：我不對自己評分，不過我們會有……"],["高金委員素梅：你認為呢？"],["李秘書長孟諺：我們有再進步跟努力的空間……"],["高金委員素梅：你認為是不是應該要再進步？雖然你520之後就要離開這個位置了，就要接交通部部長了，我希望你不要把這個態度帶到交通部，因為交通部是非常重要的一個部會，而不是跟秘書長一樣，只是協調的工作……"],["李秘書長孟諺：跟委員報告，其實院裡面包括各個主管大家都很努力、很盡心，希望把事情做好……"],["高金委員素梅：大家都很努力了，但是都沒有針對問題的核心點在討論，大家就是應付而已啊，好不好？"],["李秘書長孟諺：當然有一些需要再精進的地方。"],["高金委員素梅：希望把這個應付的態度改善一下，因為我們今天談的沒有任何政治的問題，它是屬於內政的問題，內政的問題是全民老百姓最感受的問題，可以嗎？"],["李秘書長孟諺：可以，這個沒問題。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝你。"],["李秘書長孟諺：好。"],["高金委員素梅：對於原住民的問題，麻煩這個禮拜到我辦公室跟我說明一下，我們剛剛談到的零到二歲原住民的托育，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝高金召委的質詢。秘書長，召委指示這個禮拜到她辦公室做說明。","現在請張智倫委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-13","speakers":["吳琪銘","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃建賓","丁學忠","高金素梅","張智倫","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","黃國昌","麥玉珍","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計 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bicy,您在民主黨任內幾年了?五年。很長一段時間了。民主黨的工作是做什麼?簡單的說明。包括各部會上來,呈給院長的公文,我們會先合約。"},{"start":23.362,"end":49.709,"text":"那所以各部會包括今天的解凍案各部會都一些說明應該也在行政院會裡面要經過行政院長這樣子的同意然後您再跟各部會來做協調協商對嗎對相關的有授權或者是我們會先審閱過好今天呢您知道嗎您是撞一天做一個做一天的和尚要撞一天鐘您今天行政院的113年度的單位預算解凍報告"},{"start":50.889,"end":75.417,"text":"這是在立法院朝野共同要解凍的案子。解凍的金額不多,但是您看你裡面的說明,非常的敷衍。我覺得做一天和尚就要撞一天鐘。你們到底有沒有用心在解決今天遭委排的這個解凍案。從你們的報告跟態度就可以清楚知道。"},{"start":76.397,"end":101.134,"text":"我先恭喜您要升任了我們的交通部部長而您的專業也在水利。您的專長是在水利。所以呢從行政院裡面五年當秘書長一直到現在當然您的九通報案我認為是非常失望的希望您未來到了交通部的時候您的態度不要如此否則不是全民之福。謝謝您。"},{"start":102.435,"end":119.833,"text":"三月五號我對陳建仁院長就原住民的原家中心議題我進行了我的總諮詢當時陳院長承諾在520之前會核定計劃而且交辦相關部會必須在三月底把計劃報行政院核查"},{"start":121.134,"end":127.136,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":149.423,"end":176.221,"text":"他有在去年的11月8號有邀集衛務部的委員會延長沒有我講的是3月5號我的總諮詢啊當時院長就已經告訴我的說要在3月底的時候把這個計畫報行政院查核所以我還嘲笑說會不會520之前他說最後一天都會那3月底了 園民會已經把修正的計畫書報到社家署了"},{"start":176.921,"end":200.256,"text":"對目前原民會是在2月6號跟3月27送到衛福部衛福部目前我的了解是還在研擬中最近應該就會送到還在研擬中啊從我3月5號已經在關心這件事情了而且我提的裡面的內容其實衛福部長也好行政院院長都非常的認同啊這個為什麼流程那麼冗長"},{"start":201.918,"end":203.72,"text":"五二零之前會合訂計劃。今天幾號了?秘書長。"},{"start":222.785,"end":245.473,"text":"明天能不能告訴我?可以嗎?還是現在請他們趕快打電話,待會就到我的辦公室裡面來做說明。連這麼一點點小事,而且是凝聚社會共識的問題,你還要拖那麼長,我都很擔心你當交通部部長的時候,您的質詢率會怎樣?好,我們來看一下今天,不用再回應了啦,不要照顧。"},{"start":246.633,"end":248.695,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。netesle"},{"start":270.731,"end":295.174,"text":"原住民族或者是所有的警察不能夠去投票你們是剝奪了憲法保障他們的投票請問一下今天已經要解凍你們的這個預算了還看不到一個具體的方式請問一下你的具體方式是什麼我們現在就是已經送到貴院就是針對全國性的公民投票"},{"start":295.774,"end":303.937,"text":"我知道啊!我要問的是,你們怎麼樣凝聚社會共識?你們的公聽會是開公聽會還是說明會還是研討會還是問卷調查?如果要舉辦會議,請問一年要辦幾場,預計在幾年之內可以收集這些語情?如果是問卷調查,可以充分收集更年齡層各族群的意見嗎?"},{"start":317.199,"end":333.932,"text":"我再更具體的問你就是這樣不要用這種敷衍的方式請回答是我想我們是期待公民投票如果順利的來推動不在籍投票之後我記到公民投票嘛那個時候之後才要談到這個所謂的不在籍投票那要幾年請你告訴我要幾年大概"},{"start":334.312,"end":335.673,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。nolds."},{"start":335.673,"end":344.617,"text":"如果順利的推動,我覺得後面其他選舉的不再去投票,因為如果是向立委、向議員,那個票的種類會非常的繁多。"},{"start":354.895,"end":356.916,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲"},{"start":373.021,"end":373.221,"text":"檸檬司司長"},{"start":389.912,"end":403.268,"text":"再來我來跟你討論少子化的推動情形。行政院你們這報告裡面這樣說本院已經建立跨部會的運作機制了由上而下整合11個部會的資源而在112到113年主要精進策"},{"start":406.291,"end":408.552,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2"},{"start":430.359,"end":456.138,"text":"我認為政府對於偏鄉原鄉的默示就是我們在制定政策的時候都是以都會區為基準點也都是以都會區的狀況為精進考量從來都沒有把偏鄉跟原住民地區的困境反映在你們的政策上例如我談幾個問題第一個原鄉連一間0到2歲的托育機構都沒有您知道嗎"},{"start":457.039,"end":481.032,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":481.474,"end":503.838,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲,我想,呃,絕對是我們一視同仁的在看待。好,如果不是的話,你覺得應該怎麼處理?那這是這個圓鄉跟偏鄉比較少的這些處所,這個我想後面還可以再繼續。後面跟誰一起討論?嗯,就是我們院裡面還是會持續的,包括園民會,包括衛福部。520之前能不能告訴我一個說法?今天就要解凍你們的案子了。那你任務幾號?這個禮拜還是下個禮拜到我辦公室?"},{"start":508.161,"end":510.623,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":532.483,"end":533.485,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":539.982,"end":544.144,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":568.912,"end":569.072,"text":"三、審查"},{"start":587.634,"end":589.035,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。nolds."},{"start":589.035,"end":591.056,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。nolds."},{"start":591.056,"end":591.617,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":614.713,"end":630.599,"text":"我覺得行政院你們應該要跨部會來談點問題離清所有的問題之後然後再針對相關的政策來擬定改善的空間和計畫你認為應該這樣子吧對症下藥是很重要的而不是頭痛醫頭腳痛醫腳而我剛剛提到的這些問題它幾乎都是跨部會的問題所以"},{"start":639.722,"end":649.218,"text":"行政院秘書長的工作就很重要你在這五年當中想病您比我更清楚可是如果要我給你打分數的話我覺得這五年來"},{"start":653.12,"end":675.03,"text":"我覺得剛剛就幾個案子的解凍案,我覺得還是有待精進。您給您自己的評分是多少?我們不對自己來評分,不過我們會有在進步跟努力的空間。你認為是不是應該要再進步?雖然你520之後就要離開這個位置了。"},{"start":678.391,"end":680.412,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。nolds."},{"start":680.412,"end":687.635,"text":"我希望您不要把這個態度帶到交通部,因為交通部是非常重要的一個部會,而不是跟秘書長一樣,只是協調的工作。"},{"start":700.701,"end":713.51,"text":"事由把這個應付的態度把他改善一下因為我們今天談的沒有任何政治的問題他是屬於內政的問題內政的問題是全民老百姓最感受的問題"},{"start":718.213,"end":728.539,"text":"對於原住民的問題麻煩這個禮拜到我辦公室跟我說明一下我們剛剛談到的這個零到二歲還有我們這個原住民的這個這個托育的部分謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151531","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151531","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3364b799b8b841fe42f7dee175bc8e0be1adcb4691eb09bf4e2fc1c769110ee9e6c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:35:42 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10:47:52","影片長度":"00:12:10","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-10"},"duration":730,"end_time":"2024-04-22T10:47:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T10:35:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":422,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時35分）主席，我先請財政部的莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：莊部長你好。莊部長，今天是地球日，基於能源政策的關係，我們目前正積極地推動一些能源發展，在推動能源發展的過程中，我發現業者為了KPI，就有一些比較缺乏自律的情況，結果造成有些是假養殖、真種電的漁電共生的政策，也有造成跟興辦計畫不符，變成有一些非法的掩埋物等等，但是我們對於這些綠能政策的放款，卻是非常的大方啊！就我知道、理解的部分，臺銀本身到2023年止，授信的金額高達4,563億，因為這是國家政策，就你所瞭解的，我們目前八大公股行庫當中，授予這些融資的貸款金額到底有多少？為什麼？因為ESG大聯盟是從國公銀這邊開始，對不對？我們希望從金融業然後慢慢影響到我們放款的對象，讓其他的行業也能夠達到ESG的落實，可是在此同時，我們發現目前在放款的對象當中，有些人的環境永續跟社會責任反而是衝突的，一邊是你要追求環境永續、你要推動綠能產業，但在推動過程當中同時卻又違背了社會責任，這時候要怎麼處理？金額有多少？你們要怎麼處理？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，我們公股金融事業投資在綠電還有再生能源產業的部分，總共有四百多件，然後有2,500億；至於在光電的部分，授信戶數大概有八百多戶，然後有456億這樣一個金額，當然我們公股行庫在放貸的時候，當然要審核他們申請貸款一些相關資料……"],["郭委員國文：重點不是在審核的過程……"],["莊部長翠雲：當然要審核，而審核完了以後、在貸放給他以後，當然貸後管理就很重要，關於貸後管理，第一個是我們貸款給他的資金流向以及他的用途是不是符合當時他來申貸時的一個用途，我覺得這個部分是非常重要的。"],["郭委員國文：這個流程本席也清楚，謝謝部長再一次說明，但我是說，倘若發生這件事情的時候，請問目前有什麼機制處理？因為一般而言，達20億以上的企業，會要求編列永續報告書，但是目前為止，甚至我們臺灣的勞動基金運用局都說，20億以下的若沒有永續發展報告書，它就不會是未來的一個投資對象，也就是不會成為投資的對象。可是20億以下的，在沒有需要處理永續發展報告書的情況底下，有沒有可能有一個ESG的信用評比？這個部分我已經有要求經濟部，而經濟部目前也在建構當中，預計最近之內會上網，如果它上網了，我們是不是可以由經濟部來公布的一個標準，舉凡影響生態、舉凡影響既有的生產、舉凡影響人民生活所導致的這種結果，這些放款單位、這些授信的單位可以要求他來說明或者是停撥或者是收回款項，有沒有可能？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，您提的這個非常好，也就是對ESG這個部分要怎麼樣落實，要有一個評比的標準，對不對？"],["郭委員國文：是。"],["莊部長翠雲：要有一個大家共同認同的標準。"],["郭委員國文：是。"],["莊部長翠雲：我覺得也許可以朝這個方向大家來努力。"],["郭委員國文：你們研究一下，好不好？現在經濟部已經有建立一個標準出來，而且是定期的公布、公開的一個平臺，就依照這個公開的平臺，或者有違反興辦計畫的一個事實、違反ESG精神的時候，你們就應該進行後面整個貸後管理的處理，可以嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，因為這一次我們……"],["郭委員國文：為什麼要求公股銀行？公股銀行已經有成立一個ESG大聯盟，你們要做一個示範啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：對！對！對！我們已經有一個倡議平臺，是，謝謝委員指教。"],["郭委員國文：就這個部分之外，我要就教你剛剛回答有關蕭大使回來攜自用酒高達23瓶、15公升一事，你是說5公升以上就要課稅，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：稅是1公升以上的都要課稅。"],["郭委員國文：1公升以上都要課稅，然後1到5公升要課稅。好，出現了一個問題，本席之前有就教賦稅署，從去年5月的時候我就質詢了，也就是說，我們免稅的金額總共才兩萬元，已經多年沒有調整了，現階段依照CPI的計算方式，大概可以到4萬5,000元，但是你們最終是要調到大概3萬5,000元，以3萬5,000元來說，請問你一下，我已經問了一年了，我聽說你們最近才公布，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，目前來說，我們已經修正並預告了，我們調整為3萬5,000元……"],["郭委員國文：2萬調整成3萬5,000元，以後出國民眾有3萬5,000元的免稅額。"],["莊部長翠雲：對，自行攜帶……"],["郭委員國文：預計什麼時候開始？如果公告期間沒有什麼異議的話！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們請署長說明一下。"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，大概5月底、6月初就可以了。"],["郭委員國文：5月底、6月初就可以對外宣告，我們的免稅額從2萬調整為3萬5,000元，所以暑假的時候我們可以多採買一點然後免稅了。","但是我們現在要討論酒的部分，現在1瓶是計算在免稅額裡頭？"],["彭署長英偉：1公升。"],["郭委員國文：1公升免稅額，但通常是1瓶啦！以清酒為例的話，大概720ml，頂多帶一瓶而已，若帶第二瓶，大概就要課稅，不是嗎？"],["彭署長英偉：是。"],["郭委員國文：現在就有民眾跟我反映，他每次出國都只能帶1瓶回來，通常不是菸、酒、藥品都有受限嗎？但是酒的部分通常是拿來送禮的，若想要自用再加上送禮，至少要再加個1瓶，這比較合理！更何況你現在從2萬5,000元變成3萬5,000元，那可不可以有多買的空間？有沒有可能隨之調整？署長認為呢？"],["彭署長英偉：報告委員，這1公升的部分已經行之多年了，如果要調升的話，我們還要再跟國庫署研擬一下。"],["郭委員國文：什麼國庫署！有那麼嚴重嗎？這個你們在辦法裡頭就可以處理了，好，請國庫署來講一下。"],["陳局長柏誠：其實酒類的部分喔，我們先前規定都是1瓶，未來如果要做調整，還是要再研擬。"],["郭委員國文：你們內部研擬一下，1個月內給本席答復一下，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好。"],["郭委員國文：能夠隨3萬5,000元的部分來公布這個利多會更好，我只是要求加1瓶而已，自用、送禮兩相宜加起來就兩瓶而已，不是嗎？好不好？我看羅召委很同意我的看法的樣子，他一直在笑！","接下來我想請教一下，兩位署長請回，部長請你稍候一下，我先請黃主委，時間請暫停。"],["主席：請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：召委好。"],["郭委員國文：主委好。主委，因為你最近對一些本土的壽險業有進行一些監理寬容，我發現這個監理寬容有連鎖效應，原本大家擔心IFRS17好像是大魔王，現在感覺上好像有點大放送的感覺，為什麼？我發現IFRS4到現在為止有提出一個有關於責任準備金的部分，還有針對利率的部分，對照於IFRS17的部分，已經開始變成有盈餘的現象；之前說缺口有900億，然後業者就開始說是不是可以把這個盈餘移轉到外匯準備金的部分，但是外匯準備金上次我有就教局長，局長跟我講，將來這個上限沒有調高，可是我算一算，上限雖然沒有調高，可是你還是有一定的一個空間，以國外投資的話占將近七成，但海外投資跟國際板上限的話大概65.25%，但是這個部分目前投資的金額大概是18.35兆，也就是大約有57.5%，距離上限我算一算，還有2.46兆額度，雖然局長說上限沒有調高，可是它會不會因此而造成這個資金的乾坤大挪移，以至於我們這個保險基金跑到海外的比例會更加提高？有沒有這個可能性？"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該不會有這個問題，是不是請局長來說明？"],["郭委員國文：請局長說明，這一點是本席擔心的啦！"],["施局長瓊華：跟委員報告，應該不會，因為……"],["郭委員國文：為什麼？"],["施局長瓊華：因為我們海外投資的上限是法律明定的，現在主要是避險的部分，避險它有避險成本，外匯價格準備金主要是在平穩避險成本過高的問題，只有這個功能。"],["郭委員國文：只有這個功能？所以移過去之後不會造成資金外移更加嚴重？"],["黃主任委員天牧：因為現在是Lock-in，而2026是依現實利率，所以現在利率高，會有保價差額準備金，這是責準金與保價金的差額，保價差額準備金就可以做……我10月12日的研討會有報告，現在保險局也在跟公會討論，這部分可以做一些彈性運用。"],["郭委員國文：對，這是現實利率，IFRS4是比較相對固定利率……"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["郭委員國文：所以會造成所謂的盈餘？"],["黃主任委員天牧：不是盈餘，而是有一些差額……"],["郭委員國文：有差額……"],["黃主任委員天牧：還要看我們訂定保價金是用逐單還是群組而定，我們都用比較彈性的方式，讓業者可以產生一些差額，又不影響……"],["郭委員國文：以差額來進行挪用？"],["黃主任委員天牧：不影響保戶權益。"],["郭委員國文：當然不能影響到保戶權益。"],["黃主任委員天牧：這不是挪用，而是可以做彈性運用，所以部分支應到外匯價格變動準備金。"],["郭委員國文：因為時間關係，我再占用一點點時間。我同意你剛剛回答王委員的說法，確實是沒有案源問題。我也認同你2016第三航廈的那個作法，但我在上一次質詢有要求4月29日國發會召開……"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，我們有派員去……"],["郭委員國文：在召開平台會議時，能不能大力建議一下？因為多半的公部門都想要當業主，想用預算編列的方式處理，根本不想用壽險資金。部長，為什麼請你暫時留在這裡？因為我們公債發行時利率都非常低，所以有沒有可能承擔一定的風險，把這些資金引回來做一個彈性上的處理？為此，部長的角色很重要，主委的角色也很重要，我希望你們把這部分做好，這樣資金才可能回來臺灣。依照召委的說法，他也是用心良苦，希望從45%要降到25%，這個方法很直截了當，但會產生一定的後遺症，我認為如此。所以想漸進式地讓資金回來確實要有一些行政作為，主委？"],["黃主任委員天牧：有，其實以前財政部促參司也很幫忙……"],["郭委員國文：沒錯，促參司是很幫忙，問題是內政部不幫忙啊、其他部會不幫忙啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實您說到重點了，大家都想編預算、做業主，這樣保險資金自然就沒有去處！"],["郭委員國文：我知道，我就是知道沒有去處，也怕它一下回來。所以我不是贊同提案，而是建議採漸進式，打開案源的可能性，突破公部門自我設定的可能性，以及推廣BOT的新的可能性。這三管要齊下，主委、部長，麻煩4月29日開會時好好深思討論一下，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們會積極去表達這個想法，謝謝委員。"],["主席：接著請李坤城李委員質詢。等一下李彥秀委員質詢完就休息一下。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 案；\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案","agenda_id":"1133201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.16596875,"end":18.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.47096875,"end":84.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.89534375000001,"end":94.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.41284375000001,"end":96.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.07909375000001,"end":106.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.24221875,"end":143.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.61346875000001,"end":106.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.28784375000001,"end":111.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.37596875000001,"end":115.01721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.27721875,"end":125.96909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.96909375000001,"end":126.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.96471875,"end":127.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.24159375000002,"end":137.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.28346875,"end":139.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.02159375000002,"end":141.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.96659375000002,"end":207.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.70471875,"end":144.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":208.09971875000002,"end":219.86159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.86159375000003,"end":245.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.01471875000001,"end":239.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.03159375,"end":239.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.38596875000002,"end":239.40284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.40284375000002,"end":239.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.41971875000002,"end":239.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":243.67221875,"end":244.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.31346875000003,"end":249.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.65909375,"end":247.26659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.75596875000002,"end":247.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.43096875,"end":261.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.13346875,"end":263.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.53409375,"end":281.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.59034375000005,"end":281.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.80971875,"end":297.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.54971875,"end":298.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.92096875000004,"end":305.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.30034375,"end":301.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.13971875000004,"end":303.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.86096875000004,"end":310.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":306.70034375,"end":307.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.65784375000004,"end":310.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.44659375000003,"end":314.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":313.66971875,"end":316.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.34034375000005,"end":317.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":317.04471875,"end":317.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.29784375,"end":317.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":317.31471875,"end":317.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.46659375,"end":317.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":317.48346875000004,"end":317.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.78721875,"end":325.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":318.74909375000004,"end":318.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.58784375000005,"end":325.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.27971875000003,"end":325.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.31346875,"end":346.49159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.72971875,"end":334.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.74659375000005,"end":334.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.76346875,"end":335.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.20221875000004,"end":335.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.65784375000004,"end":335.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.09659375,"end":336.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.53034375000004,"end":341.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.80034375,"end":342.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.40721875,"end":346.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.49159375000005,"end":346.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.76159375000003,"end":349.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.10284375000003,"end":367.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.56846875,"end":368.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.68221875,"end":372.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.32721875000004,"end":372.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.33971875000003,"end":373.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.77846875,"end":376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對不對我們希望從金融業然後呢慢慢的去影響到我們放款的對象讓其他的這個行業也能夠達到這個ESG的一個落實可是在此同時呢我們目前發現了我們放款的對象當中呢有些人環境永續跟社會責任反而是衝突的"},{"start":85.321,"end":95.935,"text":"一邊呢你要追求環境永續你要推動這個綠能產業但是呢同時呢他在推動的過程當中卻違背社會責任這時候要怎麼處理金額有多少那你們怎麼處理"},{"start":97.288,"end":105.134,"text":"跟委員報告我們供股金融事業在投資在綠電還有再生能源產業的部分總共有400多件然後有2500億至於在光電的部分壽信戶數大概有800多戶然後有456億這樣的一個金額當然在我們的不管是供股行戶在放貸的時候當然要審核相關的一個他們申請貸款的一些資料"},{"start":125.269,"end":148.974,"text":"重點不是在審核的過程﹖而且當然要審核而審核完了以後至於他貸放給他以後當然貸貸管理就很重要貸貸管理第一個資金的我們貸款他給他資金的流向以及他的用途是不是符合當時他來身貸當時的一個用途我覺得這個部分是非常重要的這個流程本席也清楚了部長謝謝你再一次說明但是我說倘若發生這件事情的時候目前有什麼機制"},{"start":150.334,"end":168.971,"text":"因為一般而言20以上的企業我們會編列這個永續報告書但是目前為止有一些甚至我們台灣的這個勞動基金運用局都說你20以下的沒有永續發展報告書他就會不購買他未來的一個投資的對象成為他投資的對象"},{"start":169.511,"end":192.589,"text":"可是21以下的他沒有需要處理這個永續發展報告書的情況底下有沒有可能有一個ESG的信用評比這個部分我已經有要求經濟部而經濟部目前也在建構當中預計最近之內會上網如果他上網的情況底下我們是不是可以由經濟部做一個他公佈的標準舉凡影響生態舉凡影響機油的生產"},{"start":195.352,"end":207.735,"text":"舉凡影響人民的一個生活所導致的這種結果你可以來要求這些販款單位這些壽星的單位來要求他來說明或者是停播或者說回款項有沒有可能"},{"start":208.574,"end":234.585,"text":"委員您提的這個非常好也就是說對ESG這個部分要怎麼樣落實要一個評比的一個標準對不對要一個大家一個共同認同的標準我覺得也許可以朝這個方向大家來努力是你們研究一下好不好就是說現在經濟部已經有建立一個標準出來而且是定期的公佈公開的一個平台就依照這個公開的平台或者呢有一個違反刑犯計畫的一個事實違反ESG的精神的時候你們應該進行後面的這個代後管理的處理啊可以嗎"},{"start":239.088,"end":260.649,"text":"為什麼邀請公共銀行?公共銀行已經有成立一個大聯盟了,你要做一個示範啊!對,我們已經有一個倡議平台,是。好,謝謝委員指教。這個部分之外,我就叫你剛剛回答有關於蕭大使回來致用的酒高達23瓶輸5公升,你是說5公升以上要課稅嘛對不對?"},{"start":262.63,"end":279.824,"text":"稅是1公升以上都要課稅?對,1公升以上都要課稅,然後1到5公升要課稅嘛好,那出現一個問題本期之前有就教於稅務署的部分也就是說我們免稅的金額從去年5月的時候我就質詢了就是總共才2萬元已經高達"},{"start":281.986,"end":282.166,"text":"議員王世堅等"},{"start":298.575,"end":298.595,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":329.655,"end":346.04,"text":"但是酒的部分我們現在討論酒的部分現在一瓶在計算在免稅額裡頭嘛一公升免稅額但是通常那一瓶啦因為一清酒的為例的話大概720ml大概應該挺多戴一瓶而已啦你戴第二瓶你就要瞌睡了嘛不是嗎"},{"start":346.9,"end":372.498,"text":"所以現在就有民眾來跟我反映說他們每次出國都只能帶一瓶回來那通常不是菸、酒、藥品都會有受限嘛但是酒的部分通常是拿來做送禮的他想要自用這個送禮至少可以加個一瓶嘛這比較合理更何況你現在從兩萬五變成三萬五啦他可不可以有多買的空間有沒有可能隨之調整的可能署長"},{"start":374.14,"end":384.071,"text":"報告委員,這一部分一公升的部分已經行之多年了那如果要調升的話我們要再跟國庫署這邊再研議一下國庫署要講一下"},{"start":391.947,"end":419.723,"text":"其實酒類的部分我們先前規定都是一瓶那未來如果要做調整還是要再研議你們內部研議一下啦一個月給本席答覆一下好不好能夠隨之這個3萬5的這個部分來公布這個利多更好啦我只是要求加一瓶而已自用送你兩箱你加起來就兩瓶而已嘛不是嗎好不好我看羅昭偉很同意我的看法的樣子一直在笑"},{"start":421.004,"end":426.318,"text":"但是我接下來我想請教一下那兩位署長請回部長稍後一下我先請黃主委時間請暫停黃主委"},{"start":433.935,"end":459.164,"text":"主委好主委主委因為你最近對於本土的授權業有進行一些監理寬容那我發現這個監理寬容有連鎖效應原本大家擔心的IFR 17原來好像是大魔王那現在感覺上好像有種大放送的感覺為什麼我發現IFR 4到現在為止有提出一個我們有關於責任準備金的部分"},{"start":460.184,"end":485.7,"text":"這責任準備金的部分針對利率的部分跟對照於IFR 17的部分已經變成有盈餘了開始有盈餘的現象然後之前是說缺口有900億然後業者就開始說是不是把這個盈餘可以動用到連同變成是說可以移軟到這個外匯準備金的頭頭上去但是外匯準備金上次我就交於署長的部分"},{"start":486.661,"end":508.79,"text":"徐長恩跟我講說這個將來上限沒有調高可是我算一算上限雖然沒有調高可是你還是有一定的一個空間以國外投資的話佔將近七成嘛當然海外投資跟國際版上限的話大概65.25但是這個部分目前投資的金額大概18.35兆也就是大概大約是有57.5"},{"start":510.271,"end":528.119,"text":"那我距離上限的算一算都2.46兆雖然你上限沒有調高阿局長說上限沒有調高可是他會不會因此而造成這個資金的乾坤大挪移以至於呢我們這個保險基金呢跑到海外的比例會更加提高有沒有可能這個可能性"},{"start":528.952,"end":553.357,"text":"應該不會有這個問題,是不是請局長來說明?局長,這一點是本席擔心的啦。跟委員報告,應該不會,因為我們海外投資的上限是法令明定的。那現在主要是避險的部分,避險它有避險成本。那外匯價格準備金的這個主要是在那個平穩那個避險成本過高的問題,只有這個功能。"},{"start":553.917,"end":577.299,"text":"只有這個功能?所以移過去之後不會造成他們這個資金更加的嚴重?不會,它那個是因為現在是lock-in的,將來2026是以現實利率,因為現在利率高,所以會有保駕差額準備金,就折準今天保駕金的差額。保駕差額準備金就可以做,我10月12號研討會有報告,現在保險局也在跟公會討論,這部分可以做一些彈性運用。"},{"start":577.839,"end":606.011,"text":"對 真人片有限時的利率嘛 那個IFOS是一個比較相對固定利率嘛 對不對所以說會造成所謂的盈餘嘛而且盈餘就是有一個差額啦 有差額啦而且要看我們去訂定那個保駕金是用竹單還是群組 我們都用比較彈性的方式讓業者可以產生一些差額 又不影響保護權益啦當然 不影響保護權益啦 那不是說挪用是說可以做彈性運用"},{"start":606.331,"end":624.649,"text":"所以部分致應到外匯價格變動準備金因為時間上的關係我再佔用一點點時間因為我同意你剛剛回答委員的說法確實上是沒有案源的問題的我也認同你2016的時候第三行下的時候那個做法但是我在上一次的質詢的時候有要求4月29號的時候"},{"start":626.03,"end":641.327,"text":"就是說國發會要召開一個平台會議這個平台會議的時候能不能大力建議一下因為多半的啊這個公部門啊都想要當業主啊都想要用預算編列的方式根本不想要用授選機制嘛"},{"start":642.808,"end":658.331,"text":"多半還有包括我們部長我必須要停留在這邊因為我們在公債發行的時候我們公債發行的利率都非常的低嘛有沒有可能承擔一定的風險讓這些資金引進回來做一個彈性上的處理部長的角色很重要主委的角色很重要"},{"start":658.792,"end":677.1,"text":"希望把這個部分資金才可能回送回來台灣嘛否則的話那個昭偉他的說法他也是用心良苦45%要降到25%這個方法是很直接了當但是呢會產生一定的後遺症啦我認為是如此啦但是要漸進式的讓這個資金回來確實要有一些行政的作為啦"},{"start":678.188,"end":694.039,"text":"主委有阿其實以前財政部兔三四也很幫忙啦兔三四很幫忙沒有錯問題是內政部不幫忙阿其他的部會不幫忙阿其實您說的重點啦大家都想跟預算做業主那當然自然保險資金就沒有去處阿"},{"start":695.345,"end":697.727,"text":"主委跟部長,麻煩4月29號好好慎思討論一下好不好?我們會繼續表達這個想法,謝謝委員"},{"start":725.287,"end":727.423,"text":"接著請李坤澄、李維文質詢"}]}},{"id":"151530","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151530","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336c460f8e577c8eb5997e999b50eca937cdcb4691eb09bf4e29e6ceecd6103539d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"10:27:52 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覺這個打造辦公室房子的成果好嗎?"},{"start":153.084,"end":162.05,"text":"我想確實是還有進步的空間因為主要是因為詐騙的形態日新月異那詐騙的情況是?國內一份調查有53人對政府的詐騙防治文化意義但過去超過一半的人對政府是不一樣的而去年我們北省被詐騙的金額是89億被詐騙金額是89億"},{"start":181.044,"end":186.366,"text":"非正義金額106億若貴姓一四人心心口口賺到錢就跟他靠一通電話、一通LINE這樣就整個錢都用去欠你偶遇了你又有瞭解到去用責騙到責騙期我們這裡貴姓的一個薪金通貨嗎?再來當年責騙案有兩萬三千斤到九年最終到三萬五千斤"},{"start":210.786,"end":213.389,"text":"憑憑一段時間就發生事件,我們現在一隻在討論就已經有人被詐騙了。所以這是真的非常嚴重的事情。是,跟委員報告,現在其實這個詐騙真的是國際性的"},{"start":228.027,"end":228.948,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":255.001,"end":255.902,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":282.603,"end":289.13,"text":"我們對這個打詐的這個訪問,我們想可以再經過更加精進的方針,來研究,來要怎麼方針。我知道委員會的就是像現在最常見的詐騙就是投資理財。"},{"start":298.621,"end":299.963,"text":"三、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":316.221,"end":342.222,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。netesle, Google, 我們現在請他下架這些廣告這些詐騙廣告這些要招募這個股友社會員這些投資的詐騙廣告都是我們都是用勸導的來下架如果有這個專法這些海外這些國際的平台就有義務要配合我們立即的下架"},{"start":343.983,"end":345.024,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":359.635,"end":361.357,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":374.611,"end":375.171,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案"},{"start":393.337,"end":394.739,"text":"持續收報違規廣告以及案業統整所發現問題,要求網路平台精進內審制度。"},{"start":411.4,"end":416.363,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。"},{"start":440.435,"end":441.296,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":467.159,"end":493.353,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員會議員"},{"start":493.633,"end":504.299,"text":"規定凍結書面報告10名字,那這樣的話萬一裡面有詐騙廣告,我們可以循線的去追查。那這種網路的公司,那這種網路的公司外匯行的問題,我們今年會議前面有什麼方案可以有效來要求這些公司來做這個防詐的協助?因為現在這些國際性的這種網路平台,它的主機也都是設在海外。"},{"start":519.908,"end":520.648,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲"},{"start":539.916,"end":550.95,"text":"對阿,這個是關係到我們國民的一個財產安全的部分。對,那個要專法過了,我們才有處分的法律。對阿,他們以前是詐騙的行為,原來是詐騙的行為阿,我們還要勸導他們。我們就要用強制執行的阿。所以就是要有法源阿。"},{"start":557.659,"end":561.664,"text":"對於詐騙網路平台業者的約束目前會推一個專法詐騙防治條例草案"},{"start":574.895,"end":592.198,"text":"有提到說今年上半年能送到立法院審查。現在已經四月了。現在四月底了。我們差不多四月底會送來。就是說這禮拜就會上院會,然後院會通過之後就會送到立法院。這禮拜上院會,下禮拜會送到立法院來。"},{"start":593.82,"end":597.502,"text":"二、處理12年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":621.635,"end":621.655,"text":"議員會議結束"}]}},{"id":"151529","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151529","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c33688571ab13c4d145c7dee175bc8e0be1adcb4691eb09bf4e2630fbb5eb73e020a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"10:19:59 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10:35:26","影片長度":"00:15:27","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-10"},"duration":927,"end_time":"2024-04-22T10:35:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T10:19:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":388,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（10時20分）謝謝主席，我請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：部長，我今天很驚喜地發現你為什麼能夠續任財政部長，其實這個是好事啦！我發現你在答復針對娛樂稅要刪除的這個部分，我看到你的態度。那麼就我的態度，要是過去，我就會送你一個十字架，這個十字架橫批就是稅收，直批就是國產，那你所有答復還有你的肢體語言，就是說誰都休想搶走十字架，你是這樣子的心態。那這是對的，這是好事喔！我認為我們國家有你這樣子能夠守住我們國產，這樣的好部長是正面的啦！這是國家有幸。","不過，這個十字架上面──稅收，十字架上面的一些污點你總是要把它去掉，比方說娛樂稅不是嗎？這些不合時宜的稅制，剛才講過好多它的不合時宜，比方說娛樂稅，我再講一些它荒唐的地方，現在我們民間為了避這些娛樂稅，因為太繁複了，這很莫名其妙的，我舉幾個例子，「有樂團的餐酒館」要課娛樂稅，他們就把它改成「播音樂的餐廳」；「脫口秀」表演的地方，把它改成叫做「好笑的演講」，這個都很奇怪，改了名字喔！脫口秀要課娛樂稅，好笑的演講不必；好，「夾娃娃機」要娛樂稅，他們改成「選物販賣機」，不用，你看你上有政策，民眾下有對策，日月潭的遊艇，這個是娛樂設施，你把它課娛樂稅；我們臺鐵的觀光列車還不必，臺鐵的觀光列車我們說這個是交通工具，所以不必娛樂稅，觀光都寫上去了喔！你看看，所以我認為這樣子是已經到了荒唐的地步。","而且你講的總金額其實不大，我們一再講嘛！16億到18億，你說這個是地方他們重要的稅收，全國22縣市，這16到18億平均下來大概都不到1億元，但是為了徵收，他們要耗費大筆的人力資源，所以對他們是很傷腦筋啊！16到18億對中央政府而言，如果中央政府這麼體恤地方政府的話，大筆一揮，我們的補助款隨便幾筆、隨便一揮都不止16到18億，而且是總額喔！所以我認為這個部分，部長，是不是你要特別思考一下，為什麼我們說要趕快推動綠色的稅制改革？你提到高爾夫球場耗費到環境能源，這是事實、這是事實，所以我們認為高爾夫球場應該廢娛樂稅，然後我們另外加徵新的綠色稅制，比方說能源稅，比方說環境稅，這才符合嘛！你看奧運，奧運會所有運動項目裡面，只有高爾夫在全世界被我們臺灣、我們國家的政府來課徵娛樂稅，這就是很荒唐的事情。那推動綠色稅制，就你講的嘛！替代財源多了，很多我們可以來找嘛！比方說交通部課汽燃稅隨車徵收這些，還有財政部的汽機車貨物稅這些都應該，以及環境部空污費、土壤污染費等等這些都是嘛！我們應該用另外一個方式，財政部應該主動找這幾個部會來商量一下，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員的指教。我想第一個就是，我們的稅當然是要與時俱進，娛樂稅這個部分如同剛剛委員所提的，有一些項目或稅率或稽徵成本都應該考慮，所以今天我們的書面報告也提出了不廢止，然後接下來項目考慮、稅率上限往下調整，以及賦予地方政府權限，讓它可以去做停徵。其實我們知道有些相關的法律也有一些補助，像文化藝術促進條例裡面對文化工作者也有表列。至於委員所提的綠色稅制這個部分，我們現在其實也在蒐集國際間相關稅的部分，我們都一直在蒐集資料，未來會在整體政策裡面去研議有關綠色稅制，而綠色稅制當然要涵蓋許多的稅目。"],["王委員世堅：部長，娛樂稅這個問題談了不下20年啦，光17年前民國96年，當時立法院就做了這個附帶決議，即一年內要廢除娛樂稅，結果97年立院改選了，之後財政部又不當一回事了。所以我剛剛就問你啊，我剛剛說17年來財政部針對娛樂稅該廢止做了哪些努力？沒有嘛！你不廢止，你說因為難尋找替代財源，這個替代財源到現在找了17年，一個才不到20億的娛樂稅，找了17年還找不到，這很怪嘛！","至於我剛剛在提案說明裡面提到文創，文創更是無辜，現在這整個產業的GDP占全國4.8%，從業的工作人員達到2.4%，政府一方面鼓勵文創，也設了文策院，也給大筆資金來補助戲劇、電影，這都是正面的，結果一方面補助，另外一方面卻來跟它課稅，這很奇怪嘛，一手補助，另外一隻手來把錢拿走，這很奇怪啦！基本上就違背了政府一開始的美意。部長，所以我覺得這個部分，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["王委員世堅：你除了身上揹著十字架以外，你要用開放的心來看待時代的進步，十字架上面難免會有一些污穢的地方，該把它去除掉的要去除，好不好？"],["莊部長翠雲：好，謝謝委員的期許。"],["王委員世堅：好。時間暫停，你先請回。","主席，我請金管會黃主委。"],["主席：請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：這本來不是我的提案，但是你剛剛提到的，剛好有幾件觸發了我先前有在質詢的，就是現在我們立院這個提案，要把壽險海外投資比例45%降到25%的這個部分，你有提到不肯的原因，你說因為現在海外利率比較高，壽險業如果現在馬上撤回將近10兆元的資金，一方面我們國內也沒有那麼多高利率的投資；二方面，這個會導致我們國內利率的變動等等，你講的都是事實。但是有關海外投資，第一點，先前踩雷不暴險的也非常多，就在去年，富邦不是一腳踏入？在海外投資的部分有匯率的風險、有戰爭的風險，去年富邦不是一腳踏入俄國戰爭，這件事情歷歷在目，所以也不盡然那麼大的金額全部在海外就是對的，但是應該下降多少、要多少時間慢慢來引導，確實是要從長計議。","第二點就是，這些壽險業投資在我們國內公共建設的比例過低，我長年一直呼籲壽險資金應該大量地來投入我們的公共建設，比方說我們現在各縣市如臺北、臺中、高雄、新北都在推動的捷運建設，不但中央政府挹注，地方政府也有配合款以外，未來捷運成形之後，營運是日日見財，每天收乘客繳的運費，這是一個很好的還款來源。臺北市光一天就有220萬人次的營運，其他各縣市捷運的營運也是都有起色，這是一項非常好的公共建設，足以讓壽險業來投資，結果壽險業沒有投資啊，這幾年壽險業到海外四處去投資，只要高利率的它都去。結果投入我們的公共建設，你看，從2019年到2022年，本來平均都還有300億，到2023年（去年）雪崩式下滑，壽險業投資本國公共建設只剩下112億。主委，你很清楚嘛，109年到現在，壽險業每一年可運用的資金，從28兆、30兆、31兆，都大概維持在30兆左右，投入公共建設的比例占0.11%，去年如果只有112億的話，是占0.03%、萬分之三，等於不把我們國內的公共建設當一回事，它不把政府對他們的呼籲、引導當一回事嘛，不是這樣嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：報告委員，其實如果有您剛剛講的，如捷運這些好的、有現金流量的，我想壽險業應該都會去，我們覺得現在應該是案源的問題，如果公共建設都有開放給保險業，保險業當然不會拒絕的，現在是案源的問題。"],["王委員世堅：都有。我光講臺北市現在正進行這三條非常重要的南環、北環、東環段，光工資上漲、物料上漲就差額440億，440億對壽險資金而言，那也是九牛一毛。"],["黃主任委員天牧：可是問題是現在這些工程的發包單位都是寧可用編預算，它沒有同意保險公司去投資，我跟委員報告，2016年，我當時就跟行政院建議第三航站可不可以讓保險公司去進行。"],["王委員世堅：2016年你有建議過？"],["黃主任委員天牧：當時我有提醒行政院，我說第三航站需要錢，可不可以讓保險業……因為航站它有收費，像這種有收費的……"],["王委員世堅：對啊！航站就是一個很好的例子。"],["黃主任委員天牧：我覺得重點就是，國內公共建設是不是可以開放給保險業投資？這個很重要。"],["王委員世堅：當然啊……"],["黃主任委員天牧：可是大家都是用編預算來做。"],["王委員世堅：現在希望壽險資金可以大量回來投資我們本國的公共建設，這是我們需要的嘛，公共建設晚一天，社會成本就增加一天。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，我們一直在努力。"],["王委員世堅：不好意思，主席，我最後再一句就好。我最後再提醒你一句，這些壽險業，你剛剛說海外資金利率高，所以它去那邊，我認為它不盡然是為了保戶，它跟保戶計算有多少可以讓保戶分紅，它是以我們國內的利率來算的，每一個保險都是，然後它自己要賺錢的部分，賺他們營運階層錢的、賺公司錢的，它自己就想辦法到海外去，如果今天它賺的，它說有多少比例要投資到國外這些高利率的地方，以這個來跟保戶計算，那我們沒話講；但它跟保戶算的，都是以我們國內利率為準，在國內講一套，然後把資金拿到國外去，而且國外除了高利率以外，就像我剛剛講的還會有一些暴險的因素，有匯率，現在還有戰爭等等因素，不是嗎？賺，保險公司要賺；賠，用我們所有的保戶存款、保險大眾來賠你們大家，它是這樣的心態嗎？你回去要他們檢討一下，好不好？謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，謝謝委員指導。"],["王委員世堅：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。接著請郭國文郭召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 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你上有政策民眾下有對策日月潭的遊艇 啊呀這個是娛樂設施你把它課娛樂稅欸 我們台鐵的觀光列車還不必台鐵的觀光列車我們說這個是交通工具所以不必娛樂稅觀光都寫上去了喔你看看"},{"start":165.193,"end":193.304,"text":"所以我認為這樣子是已經到了荒唐的地步而且你講的總金額其實不大我們一再講16億到18億那你說這個是地方他們重要的稅收全國22縣市這16到18億平均下來大概都不到1億元但是為了徵收他們要耗費大筆的人力資源"},{"start":194.793,"end":219.315,"text":"所以對他們說很傷腦筋啊16到18億對我們中央政府的我如果我們中央政府這麼體恤地方政府的話大筆一揮嘛我們的補助款隨便幾筆隨便一揮都不止16到18億而且是總額喔總額所以我認為這一個部分那個部長是不是你要特別"},{"start":220.196,"end":243.046,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":243.326,"end":261.787,"text":"新的綠色稅制比方說能源稅、環境稅這才符合嘛你看喔在奧運會所有運動項目裡面只有高爾夫在全世界被我們台灣我們國家的政府來苛徵娛樂稅"},{"start":265.579,"end":281.764,"text":"這是很荒唐的事情啊那推動綠色稅制就你講的嘛欸替代財源多啦很多我們可以來找的嘛比如說我們交通部課這個棄燃稅、隨車徵收這一些還有我們"},{"start":283.144,"end":301.15,"text":"財政部的汽機車貨物稅這些都應該環境署空污費那個環境部空污費土壤污染費等等這些都是事嘛我們應該另外一個方式財政部應該主動找我們這幾個部會來商量一下可不可以"},{"start":302.824,"end":305.766,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想第一個就是我們的稅當然是要與時俱進那娛樂稅這個部分當然如同剛剛委員所提的有一些項目啦或者是稅率啦或者基增成本都應該考慮所以我們今天也提出我們的書面報告也提出了不廢紙的"},{"start":321.679,"end":333.547,"text":"不廢止然後接下來項目考慮稅率的上限往下調整以及賦予地方政府的一個權限他可以去做停徵其實我們知道其實有相關的一些法律也有一些補助我們知道像文化藝術創新條例裡面對文化工作有表率"},{"start":337.969,"end":353.775,"text":"於委員所提的綠色稅制這個部分確實是未來我們這個部分我們其實現在也在收集國際間這樣的一個相關的稅的部分我們都一直在收集之外我們未來會在整個整體政策裡面去研議有關綠色的稅制那綠色稅制當然要涵蓋娛樂稅這個問題啊"},{"start":358.156,"end":379.656,"text":"談了不下20年啦光17年前民國96年當時立法院做的決議這個附帶決議就是說一年內要廢除娛樂稅結果97年立院改選啊那之後財政部又不當一回事啦所以就我剛剛就問你啊"},{"start":380.595,"end":398.428,"text":"我剛剛說17年來呀我們財政部做了哪一些努力針對娛樂稅該廢止沒有嘛你不廢止你說因為難尋找替代財源那這個替代財源到現在找了17年啦一個才不到20億的那個娛樂稅找了17年還找不到"},{"start":410.42,"end":438.587,"text":"這很怪嘛那至於我剛剛在提案說明裡面說文創也那文創更是無辜嘛文創現在這整個產業的GDP占我們全國4.8%欸從業的工作人員達到2.4%我們政府一方面鼓勵文創也設了文策院那也給大筆的資金來補助這些戲劇電影這都正面的啊"},{"start":440.551,"end":444.908,"text":"結果一方面捕捉另外一方面來跟他瞌睡"},{"start":446.468,"end":470.226,"text":"這很奇怪嘛一手補助另外一隻手來把錢拿走這很奇怪啦這基本上就違背政府一開始的美意所以我覺得這一個部分部長好不好你除了身上背的十字架以外那個你要用開放的心來看到時代的進步"},{"start":471.711,"end":472.432,"text":"主席,我請親管會黃主委"},{"start":492.427,"end":519.243,"text":"委員好這本來不是我的提案但是剛好有幾件你剛提到的剛好有幾件觸發了我先前有在質詢的啦就是說現在你針對我們立院現在這個提案要把授權海外投資這個比例45%降到25%齁這個部分那你有提到說不肯的原因你說因為"},{"start":521.121,"end":522.282,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議須經各黨團簽署不復"},{"start":547.833,"end":564.108,"text":"我們海外投資啊第一點海外投資先前啊這個踩雷不暴險的也非常多啊就在去年啊富邦不是一腳踏入在海外的投資的部分"},{"start":565.679,"end":593.009,"text":"這個部分有匯率的風險有戰爭的風險啊去年富邦不是A角俄國戰爭這件事情歷歷在目所以也不見然全部在海外那麼大的金額就是對的但是應該下降多少要多少時間慢慢來引導這個確實是要從長計議那第二點就是說這些受險業啊"},{"start":594.639,"end":599.853,"text":"投資在我們國內公共建設的比例過低嘛"},{"start":600.97,"end":624.23,"text":"我們長年一直呼籲授選資金應該大量的來投入我們的公共建設。比方說我們現在各縣市臺北、臺中、高雄、新北都在推動的捷運建設。捷運建設不但我們中央政府亦助地方政府也配合款"},{"start":625.091,"end":644.998,"text":"以外,未來捷運成行之後營運那是日日間載,每天收乘客繳的運費,那是很好的一個還款的來源啊。台北是光一天220萬人次。"},{"start":648.987,"end":671.444,"text":"對營運阿其他各縣市其他縣運現在也是營運都起色這是一項非常好的公共建設足以讓受選業來投資結果受選業沒有阿受選業這幾年到海外四處去投資只要高利率高利率的他都去"},{"start":672.926,"end":691.798,"text":"結果投入我們的公共建設你看從2019年到2022年本來平均都還有300億喔到2023年到去年雪崩四下滑受選頁投資我們本國公共建設只剩下112億112億"},{"start":696.704,"end":715.574,"text":"那個主委你很清楚嘛,109年到現在他可每一年他可運用授權力可運用的資金從28兆、30兆、31兆都大概維持在30兆左右。投入公共建設的比例啊,讚!"},{"start":716.494,"end":741.384,"text":"百分之零點一一啦去年如果只有一百一十二億的話是佔百分之零點零三萬分之三等於他不把我們國內的公共建設當一回事他不把政府對他們的呼籲引導當一回事嘛不是這樣嗎"},{"start":743.496,"end":758.766,"text":"報告委員其實如果有您剛才講的捷運這些好的有現金流量我想授權應該都會去現在問題我們覺得應該是愛媛的問題如果公共建設都有開放給保險業保險業當然不會拒絕的現在是愛媛的問題"},{"start":760.387,"end":766.212,"text":"我光講台北市現在正進行這三條非常重要的南環、北環、東環段工資上漲、物料上漲這個就差額440億這個440億在受險資金而已"},{"start":777.561,"end":805.188,"text":"可是問題是現在這些工程的發包單位都是寧可用編預算他們也有同意保險公司去投資我跟委員報告2016我當時就跟行政院建議航站第三航站可不可以由保險公司去進行2016年你有建議過我有提醒當時的行政院有說航站第三航站需要錢可不可以讓保險因為航站它有收那個那個有收費航站就是一個很好的例子啊"},{"start":805.828,"end":806.889,"text":"我最後再提醒你一句齁這些受險業啊"},{"start":833.12,"end":860.697,"text":"你剛剛說海外資金利率高所以人家他去那邊我認為他不盡然是為了保護啦他跟保護講計算能夠多少讓你保護分紅的他是以我們國內的利率來算的每一個保險都是然後他自己要賺錢的賺他們營運階層錢的賺他公司錢的他自己就想辦法到海外去"},{"start":861.761,"end":881.978,"text":"如果他今天賺的,如果他能夠把說我有多少的比例我要投資到國外這些高利率的地方去我以這個來跟保護計算,那我們沒話講他跟我們保護算的都是我們以我們國內利率為準"},{"start":883.619,"end":905.474,"text":"在國內講一套然後把資金拿到國外去而且國外除了高利率以外就我講的還會有一些曝險的因素有匯率啊現在還有戰爭啊等等的因素在不是嗎那賺保險公司要賺賠我們所有的保護存款保險大眾賠來賠你們大家他是這樣的心態嗎"},{"start":910.882,"end":912.144,"text":"郭國文、郭昭瑋"}]}},{"id":"151528","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151528","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336af8eb4ce7de46657cff82116bdf94ca8dcb4691eb09bf4e2801c726672a5e8405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:21:32 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10:32:41","影片長度":"00:11:09","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":669,"end_time":"2024-04-22T10:32:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T10:21:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":603,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（10時21分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["薛部長富盛：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。部長，我看你今天好像很高興，是因為什麼？心情好像特別好。"],["薛部長富盛：不會啦，平常內心也都非常淡定。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我想請教，我們今天特別安排「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」的專題報告，在我的選區彰化這邊有一條139線，很多機車族很喜歡在那邊飆車，尤其是在深夜或是清晨的時候，其實那個聲音真的都非常的大，我們也時常請地方的環保局去偵測噪音，我們當然也希望既然我們有這一套的科技執法，那是不是可以裝在最需要的地方？你們現在預計是有200多部，我不知道你們的標準為何，就是說地方政府跟你們申請，那你們預計要裝在哪裡，你們有一個標準嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：跟黃委員報告，我們基本上是補助地方的環保局，至於民眾的反應，理論上應該是地方政府（地方環保局）他們去評估，根據民眾的反映，瞭解哪一個路段經常都有這些飆車族還是噪音比較高，由地方環保局在當地裝設，我們環境部補助地方……"],["黃委員秀芳：是，所以是由地方政府自己去評估？"],["薛部長富盛：不會干預他說你一定要到哪裡，不會。"],["黃委員秀芳：那你們有沒有一個標準，就是說要什麼樣的程度或者是要車輛多少才可以裝嗎？有這樣的規定嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我可不可以請我們張司長來回答這個問題？"],["黃委員秀芳：好。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝。"],["張司長順欽：跟委員報告，我們現在的構想就是，因為數量比較有限，所以可能會讓它比較朝向移動式的，這邊放幾個月然後換個地方，之後再換另一個地方，這樣就能夠把這個設備的效果加大。至於說地點，我們會跟環保局這邊再談一下，因為噪音的陳情大概有兩種種類，一種就是在比方上下班的時候，那個很多人、很多車的時候很吵，這是一種；另外一種是比較安靜的地方，偶爾很吵，那就會吵得受不了，這兩種類型，我們跟環保局在談的時候，請他們一起納入考慮。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。剛剛很多委員也有講，尤其是山上或者是在平常，它就是很安靜的地方，突然間發現這條路又直又好騎，所以重機就很喜歡在那邊飆車……"],["薛部長富盛：對，沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我覺得這個也是一個重點，我們未來是不是可以請地方的環保局，針對類似這樣的地方加強科技執法，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好。是。不過跟黃委員報告，我們210套裡面固定的有109套，移動的101套，差不多1比1左右。固定跟移動的，說實在都有它的優缺點，你固定24小時在那邊執法很好，可是大家就會去傳哪一個地方有一個固定的在那裡……"],["黃委員秀芳：對，到的時候車速就減慢。"],["薛部長富盛：那你就不能動。但是移動的話就變成可能要有人力，那半夜的時候，可能就沒有辦法去執行，所以移動式的跟固定式的好像都有一些優缺點。當然假如數量夠多的話，就不會是問題，那數量不多，就要去衡量這兩個。謝謝。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我接下來請教，我們現在有很多汽車或是機車，其實它都是檢驗合格的，如果未來我們開始推動科技執法之後，也有少部分可能原本是檢驗合格的，但透過科技執法他也有可能被罰……"],["薛部長富盛：是，有可能。"],["黃委員秀芳：我不知道你們有沒有做這樣的統計，到目前為止，這樣的數量是有多少？就是說他原本是合格的。"],["薛部長富盛：就是說他的排氣管是領有環境部認證的，但是他也有可能被罰，被罰的原因純粹是因為他的噪音還是超過特定標準。其中的原因當然可能是這位車主自己又把哪一個消音器還是什麼拿掉了；當然也可能是他使用一段時間之後，那個老舊的排氣管已經失去消音的效果就被罰。通常是這樣，否則的話，假如說是新買的，結果又突然被罰，我相信車主絕對會去申訴，他被罰，他一定會申訴，所以理論上是比較不會有所謂的冤枉的情況……"],["黃委員秀芳：那就是部長講的，可能就是使用一段時間，或者是車主本身自己再去做一個……"],["薛部長富盛：對，有些會把消音器還是什麼拿掉，甚至是剛剛另外一個委員有提到分段式的，有人搞不好就把其中一段拆掉又換成別的，也有可能啦。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。部長，我想請教的是，我們要檢測噪音的話，可能就是警察沒辦法直接開單，有的他是直接拍照，或是有人反映的話，他到現場可能拍個照，也許就請他再到合格的檢驗場所再去檢驗嘛。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：那像這樣子的話，我想請教的就是，類似這個狀況，譬如說去拍照完之後，請他到合格的地方再去做檢驗的話，這樣合格的機率有多少？譬如說，我們認為他可能噪音超標，請相關單位來拍照完之後，他又去做檢查，檢查完之後是合格的，這種比例到底是有多高，你們有做這樣的統計嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我待會請張司長來回答比例的問題，我這邊再稍微先回答一下。環境部對於假如他的排氣管是沒有經過環境部認證，今年是有一年的緩衝期，從明年開始，假如使用沒有經過環境部認可的排氣管也要開罰；然後即使是合格的排氣管，噪音量超過也要開罰。接下來請我們張司長來回答剛剛比例的問題。"],["張司長順欽：像目前畫面上這個案子來講，應該是桃園在執行靜桃專案的一些，他往上去追……"],["黃委員秀芳：對，這個是直接到修車廠……"],["張司長順欽：對，他直接到改裝廠。"],["黃委員秀芳：直接到機車行去拍照，然後可能再請他去做檢驗，我覺得這個真的是還蠻奇怪的，我們的環保人員去看這個機車行，然後看他有沒有營業登記，這個也不是環保該做的事啊。"],["張司長順欽：是。跟委員報告，其實我剛剛有跟陳局長那邊聯絡過，我說到底做到什麼程度，事實上他們……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以，我們環境部這邊跟地方政府應該要有一套標準，如果說你們要到機車行，或是你們在外面去做稽查的話，你們應該有一套標準，然後讓地方的環保局可以有依循的方式。"],["薛部長富盛：好。我跟黃委員報告，環境部定期會跟地方環保局，針對不同的業務召開業務交流跟檢討的會議。針對這個議題，既然黃委員也特別提到，我請張司長在下一次環境部跟地方環保局同仁在做業務交流溝通的時候，也把這個案例拿出來，讓各地方大家有一致的標準，不要造成擾民的工作。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我認為環境部應該訂一個標準，另外你們在路邊，可能這個都是地方政府在執行……"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["黃委員秀芳：他們的車輛就隨便在馬路旁邊直接停下來，我覺得這樣也不對，所以你們應該也要有一個標準，就是中央環境部跟地方政府如果要檢測的話，那車子要放在哪裡？不能隨便就在馬路旁邊停下來，然後就請人家停車來做檢測，我覺得這樣也不對，而且這個也會很危險。"],["薛部長富盛：我們來檢討一下，就是這種移動式的檢測設備要在什麼地方擺設會比較好，也不要造成民眾包括交通上面的困擾跟阻礙，這一點我們來檢討一下。"],["黃委員秀芳：像這個稽查車就直接這樣停，這樣也是合法嗎？"],["張司長順欽：我們對那個聲音照相的設置有一定的規範，我想我們找環保局再檢討一下，也可能各環保局執行的方式不盡相同。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我可不可以請問一下交通部，就是有關這個對車輛做檢測的稽查車，在做稽查的時候，這些器具就擺成這樣，就直接這樣插著，這樣是合法的嗎？"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告，車輛規格分成兩個部分，如果是長久固定在車輛的話，就會涉及到這個車輛規格的變更，就要到監理機關去做變更，那這輛稽查車應該是屬於短暫用附掛的一個方式……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以這個是沒有關係？"],["林司長福山：照理講，這個是一個戶外環境，前面應該有相關引導的部分，如果有引導的話，那等於是受保護，像環警監在做聯合稽查的話，前面應該會有警察在引導，那實質內容會是環保人員跟監理機關人員在作業，我想這個可以更細部一點、可以做得更好一點。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，所以我在這邊請環境部針對地方政府要去執行稽查的話，第一個，你們車輛停放的地方應該是要以安全為考量。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["黃委員秀芳：第二個，你們要到這個機車行或者是……我覺得你們應該也要有一個標準，讓地方的環保局可以有所依循，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，我們照這樣來做。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝黃委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員的發言，現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時32分）","繼續開會（10時42分）"],["主席（黃委員秀芳）：好，現在繼續開會。請涂權吉委員發言。"],["涂委員權吉：謝謝主席，麻煩請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：涂委員好。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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那我們當然希望就是說剛剛很多委員就講尤其山上或者是在平常它就是很安靜的地方那突然間這一條路又直又好騎所以重機就很喜歡在那邊飆車所以我覺得這個也是一個重點"},{"start":175.324,"end":196.801,"text":"我們未來是不是可以請地方的環保局,類似這樣的一個地方是不是可以加強科技執法這樣子?是,我跟黃文報告我們210套裡面有固定的109套移動101套差不多1比1左右固定跟移動說真的都有它的優缺點,你固定"},{"start":197.761,"end":204.727,"text":"但是移動的話就變成你可能要人那人半夜的時候可能他就沒有辦法去執行所以移動跟固定好像都有一些"},{"start":219.246,"end":244.987,"text":"有缺點,當然假如多,數量夠多的話就不會是問題,數量不多那就要去衡量這兩個,謝謝。好,那部長接下來請教就是說我們現在有很多汽車或者是機車,其實它都是檢驗合格的,那如果說像未來我們這種科技執法進行之後,那也有少部分可能它原本就是檢驗合格,那"},{"start":245.808,"end":274.409,"text":"透過科技執法他也有可能被罰我不知道說你們有做這樣的一個統計到目前為止這樣子的數量是有多少?他原本就是一個合格的就是說他的這個排氣管是領有環境部認證的那個但是呢他有可能被罰那被罰原因純粹是因為他的噪音還是超過這個那個標準那這個原因當然可能是"},{"start":275.31,"end":276.751,"text":"通常是這樣。"},{"start":291.238,"end":318.195,"text":"或者的話假如說是新買的結果又突然被罰我相信車主絕對會去告會去申訴啦他被罰他一定會申訴所以理論上是比較不會有所謂的冤枉的情況來話那就是部長講的可能就是使用一段期間或者是自己本身自己再去做一個對有些會把消音器還是什麼拿掉甚至是現在剛剛另外一個委員不是有提到這個分段式新聞"},{"start":319.516,"end":343.076,"text":"有人搞不好就把其中一段拆掉換成另外一段也有可能那部長我想請教就是說我們要這個檢測這個噪音的話可能就是警察的部分他是沒辦法直接開單有的他是直接拍照或是有人反映的話他可能到現場可能拍個照那也許就請他再到"},{"start":344.136,"end":364.687,"text":"韓國的這個檢驗的地方再去檢驗那像這樣子的話我想請教就是說類似這個狀況就是譬如說去拍照完之後請他到合格的地方再去做檢驗的話這樣的合格的這個機率有多少譬如說我們可能認為說他可能這個噪音超標"},{"start":365.908,"end":389.225,"text":"其實請這個相關單位來拍照完之後那他又去做檢查檢查完之後是合格的這種比例到底是有多高?有做這樣的一個統計嗎?待會請張師長來回答比例我這邊再稍微先回答一下環境部對於假如他的排氣管是沒有經過環境部認證那從明年開始"},{"start":390.246,"end":402.973,"text":"今年是有一年的一個緩衝期明年開始假如使用沒有經過環境部認可的排氣管也要被開花然後即使合格的排氣管"},{"start":404.198,"end":429.952,"text":"噪音量超過也要太晚然後接下來請我們張市長來回答剛剛的比例的問題目前畫面上這個案子來講應該是桃園在執行淨桃專案的一些這個是直接到修車廠直接到機車行去拍照然後再請他到那個可能再去做檢驗我覺得"},{"start":432.057,"end":443.522,"text":"這個真的是還蠻奇怪的我們的環保人員你去看這個機車行然後看他有沒有營業登記這個也不是環保局該做的事啊"},{"start":444.147,"end":450.652,"text":"所以應該我們環境部這邊跟地方政府應該要有一套標準如果說你們要到那個這個機車行或是你們在外面去坐這個機車的話你們應該有一套標準然後讓地方"},{"start":464.924,"end":478.48,"text":"的環保局可以有依詢的一個方式好我跟黃委員報告齁環境部定期齁會跟地方環保局針對不同的業務會去做一個業務的這個交流跟檢討的會議"},{"start":479.921,"end":499.669,"text":"那這個議題既然黃委員也特別提到我請張司長在下一次環境部跟地方環保局同仁在做業務交流溝通的時候也把這個案例拿出來讓各地方大概就是大家有一致的標準不要造成擾民的一個動作"},{"start":500.989,"end":515.037,"text":"我希望就是說環境部你應該是定一個標準另外就是說你們在路邊可能這個都是地方政府在執行在地方在路邊執行這個噪音或者是那個排氣的這個部分"},{"start":516.218,"end":544.426,"text":"其實我覺得他們的車輛就隨便在馬路旁邊就直接停下來就我覺得這個也不對捏所以我覺得你們應該也要一個標準就是說中央這個環境部跟地方政府應該要有一個類似我們如果要檢測的話那你這個車子要放在哪裡不是說馬路隨便你就停下來然後就請人家停下來然後做一檢測我覺得這樣也不對而且這個也會很危險"},{"start":546.533,"end":562.606,"text":"我們來檢討一下就是說這種移動式的檢測設備是要在什麼地方來擺設會比較好也不要造成民眾包括交通上面的一個困擾跟阻礙這一點我們來檢討一下那這個機場車直接這樣子這樣也是合法嗎"},{"start":568.347,"end":591.59,"text":"我們對那個聲音照相的設置有一定的規範這我想我們找環保局再檢討一下因為可能各環保局執行的方式我可不可以請一下那個交通部就是有關這個車輛做檢測這稽查車那他做稽查的時候他的器具就直接擦在這樣子其實這樣是合法的嗎"},{"start":592.957,"end":607.841,"text":"跟委員報告一下車輛規格分成兩個部分如果說涉及是這個長久固定在車輛的話就會涉及到這個車輛的這個規格變更那個要到監理機關去做變更那這輛稽查車的部分應該是屬於短暫時用附掛的一個所以這個是沒有關係這個部分的話"},{"start":613.922,"end":637.018,"text":"這樣子這個照理講它這個是一個多外環境前面應該有相關引導的部分那如果是引導的話那是一個等於說是說保護啦這個如果說像這個環境間在做聯絡清查的話前面應該會有警察在引導那實質內容會是這個環保人員跟監理機關的人員在座位我想說這個可以更細部一點可以做得更好一點"},{"start":637.278,"end":637.838,"text":"黃秀芳"}]}},{"id":"151527","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151527","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c33621ee9fda8754550bf397fd65b575a832dcb4691eb09bf4e2c4ede4f81ccb8c125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"10:25:12 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10:19:51","影片長度":"00:13:41","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-10"},"duration":821,"end_time":"2024-04-22T10:19:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T10:06:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":293,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（10時6分）主席及各位先進。有請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["賴委員士葆：旁邊關務署、國庫署的同仁要幫忙可以到旁邊去。"],["主席：請各位署長就位。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：部長早安。剛才你回答林德福委員的一些說明，我想再請教你一下。你有沒有收到我現在放出來的這一張文──外交部給你們的函？是3月15號發的，你有沒有收到？"],["莊部長翠雲：這一件公文是給我們的國庫署還有……"],["賴委員士葆：對，國庫署還有……"],["莊部長翠雲：他們都有收到。"],["賴委員士葆：都收到了？"],["莊部長翠雲：對。"],["賴委員士葆：你們什麼時候回文給外交部？"],["莊部長翠雲：回文給外交部是由國庫署回文。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼時候回的？"],["莊部長翠雲：我們是在3月15號回的。"],["賴委員士葆：效率這麼高，坐高鐵都沒這麼快，像坐飛機嚇嚇叫，什麼時候部會來往是咻的一聲，像火箭的速度？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報……"],["賴委員士葆：外交部給你們文，你馬上回。好，你先不要急著回答，重點在於他要什麼東西？他說免附菸酒進口業許可執照，因為他是大使，大使回國以後有一個相關的處理辦法。第二個，免辦理進口酒類衛生查驗。老實講，部長，你聽清楚，這是外交部幫你們定的，憑什麼外交部規定駐外大使回來時帶的酒，你們就可以免辦進口酒類衛生查驗？我知道你們是根據這個辦法，但是這個辦法是外交部定的，財政部為什麼變成它的下屬單位呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是只有大使，而是政府派駐到國外的政府官員，他奉調回國的時候攜帶的自用物品，這個地方很重要的就是「自用」物品。"],["賴委員士葆：好，那請問你……"],["莊部長翠雲：不是只有大使，而且這裡面我們要審核他是否自用，同時數量要是合理的情形。"],["賴委員士葆：要自用。我問了相關的官員，你們說因為外交部匡在那裡，所以不管是不是大使，只要是從外面回來的政府官員自用，都不需要進口業的許可執照。比如說進來一個貨櫃算不算？我很會喝，我進口一個貨櫃可以嗎？20呎的，可不可以？"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，以這個數量來看，您覺得他符合自用嗎？當然不符合，所以……"],["賴委員士葆：我自用啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：所以這個案子外交部也附了相關的一個清單給我們看，只是15公升，23瓶，所以……"],["賴委員士葆：超過15公升啦！超過5公升，超過1公升啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：是，超過1公升是一定要課稅的，不因為他是駐外人員回……"],["賴委員士葆：部長啊……"],["莊部長翠雲：所以關稅、營業稅跟菸酒稅依然要課，只是不需要……"],["賴委員士葆：昨天下午整個新聞炒熱起來你們才說要課稅，原來外交部希望你們便利放行，他只是沒有講，我們都瞭解，財政部過去對於這些駐外人員回來，不管是不是大使，基本上都沒有在檢查。"],["莊部長翠雲：有，通關的程序依然要做。"],["賴委員士葆：我要強調，特別是根本沒有在課稅。"],["莊部長翠雲：有在課稅。"],["賴委員士葆：有嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：有。"],["賴委員士葆：算幾個數字出來給我。"],["莊部長翠雲：只要超過1公升都要課稅，而且通關的程序依然要經過一定的海關查驗，海關……"],["賴委員士葆：這一批貨現在到了沒有？"],["莊部長翠雲：還沒。"],["賴委員士葆：還沒有到，各位，3月15號它給你公文，你馬上回，你看，因為蕭美琴馬上要當你的長官，這個東西……"],["莊部長翠雲：我們的程序當然怎麼做……"],["賴委員士葆：部長先不要急著講，我告訴你們，這個叫財政部與外交部爭相拍馬屁，就這樣子，爭相拍馬屁啦！就是這樣子。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，不是這樣的。"],["賴委員士葆：當然是這樣子。"],["莊部長翠雲：駐外人員不是只有外交部。"],["賴委員士葆：當然是這樣子。昨天媒體討論，你們還罵媒體。這是財政部發的，組長叫呂姿慧，財政部睜眼說瞎話，說「有關媒體報導前駐美國蕭大使美琴帶私酒進口要求免查驗，並非事實。」回到剛才那一頁，這裡已經講了，上面就寫你都同意免查驗了，你剛剛講同意了，怎麼又發這個新聞稿呢？並非事實？為什麼不是事實呢？前面就秀在那裡，怎麼不是事實呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：海關的通關查驗都要做，稅也要課，只是因為他是自用，所以進口酒類衛生查驗依照相關規定不需要查驗，這個部分要把它講清楚，而不是說……"],["賴委員士葆：並非事實……"],["莊部長翠雲：並不是用特權……"],["賴委員士葆：財政部睜眼說瞎話，明明外交部的要求就是兩大重點──免附菸酒進口業許可執照、免辦理衛生查驗，就是免查驗。你們發文說媒體報導蕭美琴進口要求免查驗，你說依法免查驗，對不對？只是後來你補一個說要課稅，他也沒有談到稅，你們的公文沒有談到稅的問題，讓你們有一個站得住腳的地方，對不對？本來昨天有媒體問我，我就跟他說要看超過有沒有課稅，財政部一直沒有講，等到昨天晚上才講，到晚上才發新聞稿，我才追蹤這個題目，對不對？"],["莊部長翠雲：他要課稅，所有的案子超過1公升都要課稅。"],["賴委員士葆：早就可以講了，中午就可以講，一直到晚上才講，你們的時間拖很久，所以我就是……"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，我們內部需要瞭解整個案情怎麼樣。"],["賴委員士葆：需要瞭解？奇怪了，3月15號的公文你馬上就可以回，人家媒體問你的時候就要整個……這麼簡單的事情，超過1公升要課稅就沒講到、閉嘴，這個話你就不敢講。"],["莊部長翠雲：沒有不敢講，我們在新聞稿裡面一定說明。"],["賴委員士葆：講得太晚，而且還說並非事實，還罵媒體，我覺得很奇怪，睜眼說瞎話。部長看清楚，這個文是外交部給你的，不要要求菸酒進口業許可執照，不要做酒類衛生查驗，第三，便利放行，結果你們還罵媒體，說這個並不是事實，這就是事實。部長，不能這樣子。"],["莊部長翠雲：我跟委員報告，一開始的時候是說什麼特權、私菸案，這個查驗我們是……"],["賴委員士葆：那你可以講特權不是事實啊！不查驗就真的是如此啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：這確實不是事實，然後查驗的部分，海關的查驗一定要做。"],["賴委員士葆：是嗎？"],["莊部長翠雲：一定要做，而且稅要課，只是他不需要經過酒類衛生查驗這個部分，所以我們還是要講清楚。"],["賴委員士葆：你這一句話很不好，這一句話感覺就是爭相拍馬屁，睜眼說瞎話。","第二個，回到今天的題目──娛樂稅。當然你連任部長，其實你不用那麼擔心，短時間不會被換掉，不必爭相拍馬屁。娛樂稅每年課不到20億，老實講，主席提出的訴求是有他一定的道理，你知道稽徵成本多少？地方政府每一個稅捐稽徵處底下都有一個組、一個科或者一個股，專門來課娛樂稅，都課一點點，這裡面主要是六都占了13.6億、占了72%，其他的縣市都要課，他們都有專門的人在辦理，所以老實講，主席主張廢除沒什麼不對啊！但是地方財源，地方需要錢，這個20億不到，19億左右，財政部補貼、專款補貼，不可以用統籌分配稅款，財政部專款給19億，然後這個就是給地方政府娛樂稅，我相信每一個地方政府都鼓掌說莊部長英明，你覺得怎麼樣？"],["莊部長翠雲：委員，對於是不是廢止，財政部也邀請過地方政府來開會，地方政府其實基本上他們基於財政自主，而且對鄉鎮來說是個非常重要的財源，所以他們並不贊成廢止。"],["賴委員士葆：那是你說的喔！我問了幾家，今天有來了好幾位的長官，他們都說我的主張他們比較贊成；他們說廢掉，但這個錢財政部出，財政部出這個錢，19億你怎麼出不起呢？請問你一年稅收多少？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然我們中央的稅收、整體稅收大概是兩兆多。"],["賴委員士葆：兩兆多啊！你就負擔19億不行嗎？是不是……"],["莊部長翠雲：我覺得對地方政府來說……"],["賴委員士葆：廢掉，你們負擔19億？"],["莊部長翠雲：他們還是需要財政的自主權，還是需要在他們自己身上。"],["賴委員士葆：或者另外學者又講，不然就是讓地方自己去立這個法，你這個法也不要管了。"],["莊部長翠雲：當然我們也考慮到一個方向……"],["賴委員士葆：這個法你不要管。"],["莊部長翠雲：地方政府可以……"],["賴委員士葆：它自己課啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：第一個，稅率本身……"],["賴委員士葆：它可以課高，也可以課低啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：我們有個上限，他們自己可以定稅率，然後至於項目的部分，如果說我們也可以賦予地方政府它自己做彈性的起徵……"],["賴委員士葆：我覺得不僅僅是娛樂稅，很多稅都應該讓地方能夠自主儘量自主吧！不要去管人又管錢，然後現在來講，財劃法你們又抓在手上，請問部長，你知不知道有一個人叫李述德？你聽過吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：當然，是我們前部長。"],["賴委員士葆：是啊！是啊！他在任內割了財劃法一塊肉、962億要給地方政府，請問你準備要割多少給地方政府？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，地方政府有關財劃法的部分涉及到分配的問題，也就是說未來地方政府怎麼去分配中央統籌分配稅款，所以這個部分我們也已經跟地方政府洽詢過相關分配的指標，因為目前來說還是相當分歧……"],["賴委員士葆：你們就是「推」啦！其實我們要的是垂直，你要挖一塊給地方政府去分，好，這個我們再找時間談。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["賴委員士葆：最後請黃主委一起來，好不好？我們聊很簡單的一個小題目。"],["主席：請黃主委。"],["賴委員士葆：2012年到2018年，華南銀行洗錢案被控，然後最近才判決，香港分行罰了3,600萬，金管會的態度怎麼樣？"],["黃主任委員天牧：這個案子我們全程都有掌握，因為它不是真正有犯洗錢，而是在洗錢防制的程序上，對於警示帳戶它沒有做到金管局要求的處理程序這個部分，而且都已經有委外找顧問公司去改善了。"],["賴委員士葆：所以是法遵的問題吧？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是法遵的問題，不是真正有commits那個money laundering……"],["賴委員士葆：莊部長，華南銀行是你管的，你要不要講兩句？"],["莊部長翠雲：這個事情我們都知道，因為華南銀行都跟我們說了，這個部分事實上是107年以前的事情，而且是華南銀行的香港分行主動跟香港的金管局去匯報的，告訴他們說之前有這樣一個警示帳戶的問題，出了一些很大的案件，事實上，這個部分香港的金管局受理以後，其實香港分行他們在洗錢防制或者是資恐的這個部分都做了相當多的改善，也經過顧問公司做過驗證，是有效性的改善，所以這個部分是107年以前，而且他們主動通報。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！你們兩位要加強啦！就這樣子，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：他們也都做了非常大的改善，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，請回。","下一位質詢請王世堅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 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因為他是大使大使回國以後有一個相關的處理辦法第二個免辦理進口酒類衛生草案老實講"},{"start":103.188,"end":111.015,"text":"老實講 部長啊 你聽清楚喔這是外交部啊 幫你們訂的啊憑什麼外交部就是說 欸 這個駐外的大使回來他帶的酒 你們就可以免辦進口酒類衛生產業我知道你們是根據這個辦法 但這個辦法是外交部訂的財政部為什麼就變成是他的下屬單位呢"},{"start":128.509,"end":145.601,"text":"委員報告跟委員報告不是只有大使是政府派駐到國外的人的政府官員他回國的時候奉調回國的時候所攜帶的自用物品所以這個地方很重要一個就是自用的物品也不是只有大使而且這裡面我們要審核的就是說他是否去自用那而且數量要還合理的情況"},{"start":158.93,"end":179.408,"text":"你們說因為他這個外交部框在那裡所以不管是不是大使只要從外面回來的政府的官員他的自用所以都不必要有進口業的一個許可執照比如說進來一個貨櫃算不算呢?我要很會喝我進口一個貨櫃可以嗎?是值得"},{"start":181.189,"end":198.406,"text":"第一個以這個數量來看您覺得他符合自用嗎?當然是不符合所以這個案子外交部他也附了相關的一個清單給我們看只有只是15公升嘛對不對23坪超過15公升啦超過5公升超過1公升啦"},{"start":204.432,"end":220.636,"text":"是!超過一公升課稅是一定要課的!一定要課!不因為他是住外人員回來所以關稅、營業稅跟菸酒稅依然要課只是不需要你們是因為昨天下午整個新聞炒熱起來你們才說是要課稅原來他們就希望外界不希望你便利放行他只是沒有講我們都了解財政部過去對於這些"},{"start":231.338,"end":257.194,"text":"這些駐外人員回來不管是不是大使基本上都是沒有在檢查的啦有啦通關還是通關的程序依然要做的特別是我特別強調特別是根本就沒有在課稅啦有在課稅有嗎有那剩幾個數字出來給我只要超過一公升都要課稅而且通關的程序依然是要經過一定的海關要查驗海關要查驗這一批貨現在到了沒有還沒還沒還沒還沒有到啊"},{"start":261.116,"end":268.522,"text":"各位你就知道3月15號他給你公文你馬上回你看因為蕭美琪馬上要當你的長官啊這個東西啊這個啊不小心被企業搶我告訴你們這個叫財政部與外交部爭相拍馬屁就這樣子"},{"start":282.612,"end":286.636,"text":"昨天媒體討論你們還罵媒體咧 你們財政部的法律組長叫呂智慧"},{"start":301.531,"end":302.834,"text":"財政部真有說瞎話欸有關媒體報導前祝美國蕭大使美琴戴19進口要求免查驗並非事實啊你剛才回到剛剛那一頁"},{"start":316.75,"end":319.093,"text":"這一頁已經有講了,上面就是寫你免查驗你就同意了啊你剛剛講的同意了啊怎麼來看第二頁?怎麼你會發這個修文稿呢?並非事實!並非事實!為什麼不是事實呢?前面就在秀在那裡,怎麼不是事實?"},{"start":334.87,"end":362.005,"text":"所以也要課然後呢只是說他在那個衛生因為他是自用所以進口酒類的衛生茶葉他依照相關的規定所以不需要茶葉我覺得這個部分要把他講清楚而不是說用 並不是用偷取的方式財政部睜眼說瞎話你再回到剛剛那一張明明外交部的裡面的把重點出來就是兩大重點免付菸酒進口業許可執照"},{"start":363.348,"end":389.525,"text":"免辦理這個衛生查驗就免查驗來再回過來結果你們發文說媒體報導這個蕭美琴進口的要求免查驗阿就免查驗了阿你是依法就免查驗了阿對不對只是後來你補一個說要課稅他還沒有談到稅你們公文文化沒有談到稅的問題只讓你們有一個站在註腳的地方"},{"start":390.886,"end":402.639,"text":"對,本來我就昨天有媒體問我,我就跟他說要看超過有沒有課稅,財政部一直沒有講,一直等到昨天很晚才講,到晚上才發新聞稿啊,我都追蹤這個題目啊,對不對?早就可以講了啊,在中午就可以講,一直到晚上才講。"},{"start":410.528,"end":437.056,"text":"到我上次講你們時間拖很久所以我就是...所以...我們內部需要了解整個案子是怎樣啊我需要了解啊奇怪啊3月15號給你文你馬上就可以回啊哪怕人家媒體在問你的時候就要整個...這個東西這麼簡單的事情超過一公寸可是你講到這...閉嘴這話你不敢講啊你看看沒有我不敢講啊我們在新聞稿裡面一定說明講得太晚啦"},{"start":439.176,"end":461.161,"text":"而且海賊還說並非事實還罵媒體喔我就覺得很奇怪啊正面說瞎話你再回到剛剛那一張部長你看清楚喔這個我們外交部給你就是不要進口業的菸酒進口業需求執照不要做衛生產業酒類第三願利放行分過來結果你們"},{"start":464.349,"end":486.254,"text":"還罵媒體說這個並不是事實,這就是事實。你怎麼這樣講啊?我覺得跟委員報告,這個查驗齁,那因為一開始的時候是講說什麼特權啦、什麼私隱案,這個查驗...那你開講特權不是事實啊!對不對?查驗就真的是事實啊!不是事實,然後查驗的部分,海關的查驗是一定要做的。"},{"start":486.954,"end":490.077,"text":"這句話你這句話很不好啦這句話感覺就是森香拍馬屁啊真的有說瞎話來第二個我回到今天的題目喔娛樂稅"},{"start":511.195,"end":520.14,"text":"所以我覺得莊部長當然你連任部長了其實你不用那麼擔心啦短時間不會被換掉啦不必爭相攀耳壁啦這個娛樂稅每年課不到21老實講主席提出的訴求是有他一定的道理你知道基層正本多少"},{"start":534.206,"end":539.412,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11屆第2會期財政委員會第3會期財政委員會"},{"start":551.195,"end":565.66,"text":"其他的縣市都要克啊他們都要專門人在服事這個所以老實講主席主張的廢除沒什麼不對啊但是地方財源啊地方需要錢啊這個20億不到19億左右財政部補貼"},{"start":570.823,"end":584.664,"text":"專款補貼不可能統中被涉款財政部專款給19億然後呢這個就是給地方政府這個娛樂稅我相信每一個地方政府都鼓掌說專補掌英明你覺得怎麼樣"},{"start":586.107,"end":603.157,"text":"委員對於這個是不是廢紙財政部有邀請過地方政府來開會那地方政府其實基本上他們基於財政自主他們基於財政自主而且對鄉鎮來說是個非常重要的財源所以他們並不贊成廢紙那是你說的喔我問了幾家現在今天有來的好幾位的長官他們都說我都主張他們不再贊成捏他們都廢掉但這個錢財政部出"},{"start":614.287,"end":642.214,"text":"財政部出這個錢19億你怎麼出不起呢請問你一年稅收有多少當然我們的稅收中央的稅收是有我們的整體稅收大概是以兩兆多兩兆多啊那你就負擔負擔19億那沒啥利是不是我覺得對地方政府來說他們還是需要財政財政的自主權還是需要他們在他們自己身上或者另外學者要講啊不然就是讓地方自己去立這個法你這個法不要管了"},{"start":643.034,"end":671.202,"text":"當然我們也考慮到一個地方政府可以﹖他自己課啊!一個稅率本身﹖他可以課高可以課低啊!他們自己可以訂稅率然後這一項目的部分我們如果說我們也可以賦予地方政府來做他自己做彈性的一個﹖我覺得不僅僅是娛樂稅了很多稅都應該啊讓地方能夠自主盡量自主吧不要管人家管錢然後現在來講那個財劃法你們又抓在手上"},{"start":673.333,"end":684.805,"text":"請問你部長你知不知道有一個人叫李素腿你聽過吧當然是我們前部長是啦是啦他在任內啊割了一塊漏960萬億要給地方政府採劃法請問你準備要割多少給地方政府"},{"start":689.552,"end":707.531,"text":"我跟委員報告地方政府的有關財法法的部分涉及到分配的問題也就是說未來地方政府怎麼去分配這個中央統籌分配稅款所以這個部分我們也已經跟地方政府洽詢過相關的分配的指標那因為目前來說還是推了其實我們要的是垂直"},{"start":710.214,"end":735.716,"text":"你要挖一塊給地方政府地方政府去分好不好這個我們再找時間談那個最後一個請那個黃主委一起來好不好我們兩位很簡單的一個小題目2021年到2018年那個莊部長還在喔部長還在華南銀行洗錢案被控然後最近才判決罰了在香港分堂喔罰了3600萬來今晚問你態度怎麼樣"},{"start":739.261,"end":757.47,"text":"這案子我們全程都有掌握,包括因為他不是真正有犯洗錢,而是說在洗錢防治的程序上對於警示的帳戶他沒有做到金管局要求的處理的程序這個部分而且都已經有委外找顧問公司去改善了。"},{"start":758.427,"end":779.475,"text":"所以是法尊的問題吧?是法尊的問題,不是真正有commit的那個Anti-Poliglante的問題。好,那個,總部長,華南銀行是你管的,你要不要講兩句?這個事情我們都知道,因為華南銀行都跟我們說了,那這個部分事實上是107年以前的事情,而且是華南銀行的香港分行主動跟香港的金管局去"},{"start":779.735,"end":780.335,"text":"好不好你們兩位要加強了齁"},{"start":808.001,"end":818.577,"text":"那他們也都做了非常大的改善,謝謝好,謝謝,請回下一位質詢請王世堅、王委員"}]}},{"id":"151524","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151524","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336087834199dac635dcff82116bdf94ca8dcb4691eb09bf4e2143847ea1a8270d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:10:50 - 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圍著噪音在走 讓部長見識見識 來"},{"start":75.098,"end":75.479,"text":"三、二、一。"},{"start":98.059,"end":105.041,"text":"台灣這個是一個很棒的行業。137點是福利。你看車子。這個都沒掛牌,沒有掛牌。"},{"start":128.456,"end":133.498,"text":"還在噴火 還在噴火 還在烤 烤製部長 你看了這個 你覺得怎麼樣我看了是很興奮欸你看 這個這個排氣管 一支排氣管都要十幾萬"},{"start":151.942,"end":179.944,"text":"我要這裡另列的看法台灣這個改裝的行業非常的很棒喔我們做的材料還有外銷還賺了不少錢所以年輕人他沒掛牌啊 你要怎麼換但是唯一不好就是他在室內在室內測試空氣不好你看都是在室內車子也是那車子最多他就掛臨時牌一年繳個二三十萬他還爽"},{"start":182.075,"end":202.772,"text":"林氏牌你如果沒有就開斷了,對不對?不對?這樣對不對?對,他這可能是這群人大概都在玩車的,在他們自己的場域嘛所以這個要怎麼引導啦,不要,你剛剛在講一直進那我這裡有一個建議齁,這個大鵬灣國際賽車場,現在線密很大,你能不能引導讓他去那邊,去那邊齁"},{"start":207.436,"end":230.229,"text":"為什麼呢?這個大鵬灣國際賽車場是我在第8屆立委的時候我是促成之一的主力之一那那個時候是希望F1去那邊後來因為長度不夠所以變成F2而已那現在因為大鵬灣飆出去東方集團解約了重財了現在要再找新的合約但是這個賽車場就"},{"start":233.03,"end":254.329,"text":"丟在那邊是蠻可惜的我們是不是把這個產業你看那年輕人看到那個就爽啊他們就是要玩這個那為什麼不把他引導到這裡因為我們稅收也增加然後讓他們有地方去去去花樣一下然後車子也可以都可以摩托車也可以"},{"start":255.674,"end":256.075,"text":"所以蘇文"},{"start":271.554,"end":295.77,"text":"其實你的觀念很好,我覺得這種才是既然我們禁止不了那就應該是引導在特定的場域讓這群人可以去發揮也符合他的興趣應該是這樣,又不會影響到別人應該是用引導來取代這個禁止的這個是可以思考的方式張斌那一刻賽車長也是沒有達到F1"},{"start":297,"end":306.479,"text":"所以這個都是F1以下的所以我們要把它弄因為這個長度不夠啦所以如果能夠達到F1的話當然是要把它弄成F1"},{"start":307.614,"end":314.918,"text":"所以剛剛看到這個是另外一個角度這是一個產業從另外一個角度來思考不是妖魔鬼怪沒那麼嚴重啦但是他們到路上去那飆車就是不對那會在路上飆車就因為他沒有場地嘛所以你不要給他引導"},{"start":328.41,"end":345.739,"text":"我認同蘇文正面的看法﹖把他引導而不是把他妖魔化﹖但是他在正常的地方﹖我們一般的地方就不允許做﹖你就要去特定的地方﹖我們提供場域﹖好"},{"start":356.843,"end":375.522,"text":"我們現在的聯合機場你剛剛講了什麼什麼要警察跟環保的因為警察不能去取締噪音嘛所以一定要跟警察跟環保就發生一個事情啊你看你們噪音給人家花了三千、六千這麼多少當然還是喊殺喊打最好花到一萬、兩萬"},{"start":377.423,"end":395.749,"text":"我沒見但是呢你交通對這邊用交通條例43條那前面是用第8條噪音的11條噪音的警察開一張單環保開一張單行政罰則可以一試二罰嗎他只是一個噪音而已捏部長"},{"start":397.625,"end":418.544,"text":"我想假如一墜大概不能二滑啦就看他那個行為是屬於哪一個當然站在這個人民的權利就讓他選擇他要接受兩個裡面哪一個我個人的看法這感覺給人家吊罩吊六個月捏你知道嗎"},{"start":419.614,"end":420.856,"text":"有這樣幹的嗎?"},{"start":420.856,"end":431.888,"text":"所以我今天講的都是用另外一個角度在看事情。我們當部長就要講官話,回到學校當教授就要講實話。"},{"start":434.435,"end":454.268,"text":"我都講實話我沒有在講官話河山場的廠長退休前三天五天還在跟我吵架他說你有缺電沒有缺電結果他退休之後兩天我去拜訪他我請他當我的核能顧問他說缺電缺得一塌糊塗我說你神經病啊"},{"start":454.488,"end":462.972,"text":"沒有啦,我表裏一致的啦,不分場合都一樣啦,我們做人就是這樣啦做人比較有根本的啦,所以這個是我一再要講的就是說你現在總共有100多套嘛,全台灣201套,210套,210啦都是科技執法的嘛對,科技執法210 那個最近要增加到300多套"},{"start":484.514,"end":485.115,"text":"對。306套會再增加。"},{"start":494.124,"end":521.694,"text":"可能我回去再了解我們分配的一個原則因為有時候大家各縣市也比較互相比較來比較去當然假如說真的落差很大可以稍微反映一下我相信環境部在做這個分配應該也有它一定的原則包括縣市政府的配合度願意不願意來配合款這個也相關因為現在數量都還很少所以數量很少的時候在那裡比較說哪裡多哪裡少可能"},{"start":524.215,"end":529.037,"text":"我們來爭取更多的設備最後一個問題就是電動車現在都沒有聲音了電動車我看沒什麼噪音會不會太安靜了會不會發生車禍有的人也會這樣覺得有點吵吵的不習慣"},{"start":547.602,"end":555.584,"text":"市長現在這電動車它很多感測器啦你再告訴公路跑它旁邊有車載它會有聲音跟反應啦所以也是有這個我覺得車這個車上它會設置沒有這是它開車的人它旁邊一大堆sensor"},{"start":574.727,"end":580.75,"text":"但是外面的人：比如說騎車的人騎電動車一直騎過去：你也不知道會不會發生騎到：所以我們的噪音你說70以上不行：80以上不行：那如果電動車的噪音是0還得了："},{"start":596.916,"end":600.777,"text":"電動車的部分在這個國際安全法規裡面有要求他最基本的一個這個警示音啊國內的法規跟聯合國跟歐盟的法規都一樣"},{"start":626.018,"end":627.359,"text":"蘇清泉委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"151523","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151523","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336c05221ae49d6f24897e999b50eca937cdcb4691eb09bf4e2442b61f25c0f82105ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:09:10 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Kacaw"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計 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Minne4、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne5、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。 Minne6、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。 Minne7、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。 Minne7、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。 Minne7、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報"},{"start":608.382,"end":610.063,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":628.848,"end":646.34,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":646.34,"end":648.743,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲輸長,黃正兵委員,台東的事情要拜託你。"}]}},{"id":"151522","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151522","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336f64e296ef2a880eef397fd65b575a832dcb4691eb09bf4e23e43393a2f85716b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"10:11:20 - 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提出來的這個正式的調查報告還有其他什麼重點嗎"},{"start":336.615,"end":365.002,"text":"我們的會比較detail因為資產署的報告當時我們還要做一些...你們會比較detail我可以理解因為你們花了那麼久的時間在收集資料在寫所謂的爬書當時候發生的事實跟事後的一些細節這個我可以理解那我的意思是說那你建議該改進該檢討除了監察院剛剛我們已經4月15號看到的報告以外你們還有其他的重點嗎"},{"start":365.862,"end":372.024,"text":"主委我為什麼對運安會說真的我沒有信心為什麼來我們2022清水隧道事件的報告書也是你們運安會調查的也是你們提出正式的報告的你們有建議要裝義務入侵偵測系統跟隧道防護系統"},{"start":393.939,"end":403.303,"text":"剛剛許委員有提到你們建議的照你剛剛回答的意思是說台鐵現在正在做但是你知道這一次4月3號花蓮地震花蓮地震那個鐵道上還是有一顆落石落下來大家都不知道為什麼大家都不知道為什麼"},{"start":415.205,"end":432.911,"text":"所以我們的建議有沒有有沒有到位這第一個第二個台鐵他現在本於他的安全跟專業到底有沒有能力去把整個你們的建議落實你們有再繼續督導嗎"},{"start":435.051,"end":442.975,"text":"有台鐵的那個有關軌道入侵的偵測設備我們還是在督導他可是他沒有辦法偵測到這一次花蓮地震那顆落石落下來啊連文工財部長自己也承認啊他們現在設計的系統監測系統並沒有辦法預知這落下來的那顆石頭啊那你們的建議是什麼還可以再怎麼改進"},{"start":457.281,"end":474.616,"text":"你剛剛回答其他委員是說我們可以監測到義務入侵而且要等到撞到了我們才可以讓他列車停死那我們難道我們對安全的現代化的最新的科技沒有辦法在落實碰到落實之前就偵測到就讓列車停死嗎沒辦法嗎所以表示之前沒有這樣建議嗎"},{"start":485.728,"end":513.403,"text":"那不是很離譜嗎有建議但是他動作他比較慢台鐵因為他還要他說他還要編預算還要什麼這個我當然知道啊問題是我跟你講主委你再回去看你們的調查報告你認認真真的書面報告給我你真的像4月3號花蓮地震那一顆落石落到軌道上如果你有提出建議說希望在碰到異物之前偵測到就要停止"},{"start":518.326,"end":543.504,"text":"這個部分你順便報告給我我們好好的來談清楚因為就我的理解從之前運安會成立到現在每一項的正式報告裡面我在看的時候這個複合式的有沒有鐵路跟上面的公路的這個邊坡邊坡你們有建議但是呢因為地震的落實他可能不是只有邊坡的問題還有更上方的一個落實的問題你們到底有沒有本於專業有建議"},{"start":544.735,"end":544.815,"text":"何欣純"}]}},{"id":"151520","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151520","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3368ad1e65b4dba458bf397fd65b575a832dcb4691eb09bf4e20f4beab1f5dffbc25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"09:54:07 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不會太少"},{"start":130.376,"end":154.146,"text":"從另外一個角度來講是不是表示我們運安會的調查改善建議有成效所以事故比較少所以看一體的兩面主委好像都自我感覺良好也行不是不是這個這個通報是來說我們會做分析啦但是有的有的屬於像很多台剛有委員講說像台鐵的一些事故有些通報真的是虛驚事件"},{"start":155.666,"end":183.524,"text":"對,但是我們還是要掌握,因為畢竟我們現在的功能已經不是只有所謂的航空嘛,我們包含所謂的水路、鐵路、公路,都是在我們的一個管理的範圍裡面。那從110年到112年,最少都有100多間、200多間的重大交通事故啊,數量不能說不少啊。這邊這部分,難道運安會沒有責任嗎?我們的自願幫助系統本身也要發揮功能啊,確實。"},{"start":186.544,"end":187.224,"text":"主委有什麼看法?"},{"start":208.991,"end":222.062,"text":"我們這三年只有針對一個貨運業的安全管理機制做過一個所謂的議題研究這三年就只有做這件事情其他沒有針對其他的所謂的一個交通類別還有我請應當組的組長來報告一下"},{"start":228.426,"end":245.977,"text":"委員你好有關這個重大關注議題是在109年的時候那時候是我們想要仿效這個國外美國的做法所以嘗試發佈這樣的一個機制那這幾年來我慢慢把它變成再加上委員會的督促下我們把它制度化了像我們從今年開始的發佈的"},{"start":247.738,"end":248.058,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":277.763,"end":306.094,"text":"這個部分就是我們依據我們發布的感恩建議我們去中整歸納的一個比較值得關注的這個議題那這個部分我們會跟著我們感恩建議發布之後的追蹤機制感恩建議發布之後這些感恩建議每半年我們都會追蹤列管一次好這本席要求一定要做尤其像我們這個有漁工的這個很多的一個漁港的一個地方這也是事故頻傳這請列為一個重要的一個議案好不好"},{"start":306.434,"end":322.954,"text":"沒有錯,我們也會朝這個方向來做,謝謝另外我想我們在業務報告裡面有看到所謂一個新型的一個運具事故的調查跟國際交流但是業務報告裡面沒有看到相關的內容,這部分有進度嗎?這個我請工程組,因為這個比較會專業,我請工程組的李長和李組長來報告一下"},{"start":338.052,"end":353.171,"text":"報告委員我們的科技計畫總統有三大類別那第一個類別就是有關於新徐運具的調查技術跟國際交流那這兩項主要是我們的調查業務包含了運輸事故調查工程能量以及那個進進運輸事故調查人員的能量"},{"start":355.486,"end":384.404,"text":"好那我想現在媒體一直在報導我們年底有可能我們的國家火箭的發射廠會落腳在屏東我想我們的國情委員是屏東人也很關心這個議題那未來我們臺灣的衛星的數量只會越來越多但是去年底我們主委回應太空事故調查的能量只有從空運組調來兩個人要處理這個事情這國際的事件這敢有救人力是不是可以增加"},{"start":385.926,"end":405.367,"text":"這個太空事故調查組確實是人力不足,那我們朝航空調查組的部分人來支援,事實上那個是如果真正發生太空事故的話,人力是不足的。主委我想我們還是要這個不管是人力還是相關的軟硬體設備要超前部署,要不然這邊變成太空產業到現在連人都還沒到位,會很離譜的。對,對。要好好加油,謝謝。是,是,謝謝委員,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151519","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151519","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3363d5c2e87701f1481cff82116bdf94ca8dcb4691eb09bf4e2335c7f683d568c255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"10:04:18 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10:10:48","影片長度":"00:06:30","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":390,"end_time":"2024-04-22T10:10:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T10:04:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":479,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（10時4分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：盧委員早。"],["盧委員縣一：早。我們先看一下噪音對身體所造成的影響，我們現在容許的標準越來越低了，你知道現在的標準大概是設在哪裡嗎？容許的噪音分貝數。"],["薛部長富盛：有關哪一部分的噪音標準？"],["盧委員縣一：對身體的長期影響。"],["薛部長富盛：你是說對健康的？"],["盧委員縣一：對。"],["薛部長富盛：對健康的當然是希望在綠色的區域。"],["盧委員縣一：是，以前我們大概都會說如果你要提高音量來講話的話，大概就是80分貝。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["盧委員縣一：現在大部分都越來越嚴格，所以希望能夠設定常態在53或54這裡，先大概有一個基礎的瞭解。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝委員的指教。"],["盧委員縣一：第二個，現在大家都知道噪音是最高的一個公害，不知道部長有沒有去我們鄉下住宿過？如果我們在山上生活的話，大概6點會叫你起床的是村長的廣播，村長廣播前會先放一段音樂，讓大家知道村長要講話了，但現在不是村長的廣播叫醒我們，大概五點多，那些騎重機的人就會經過鄉間的道路，所以現在是重型機車的噪音叫醒我們的村民，怎麼樣取締都沒有用，因為那個時間點不會有公務人員上班，你要取締的話，根本就無人到場，也無人舉證，無人蒐證。剛剛前幾位委員都在講，現在山上我們那些檢測的設備根本就不夠，你們說114年才會有，大概全省三百多件，那山上更不用講有這個設備，我們連分貝這件事情也都搞不太清楚，那樣的一個設備我們連看都沒有看過，在山上旅遊地區的話，你要怎麼來監測或者防止噪音的惡化？"],["薛部長富盛：在山上基本上還是要靠人力跟檢舉，然後這種噪音的檢測，說真的，為什麼我們現在要科技執法？最主要是它是一個非常短時間的現象。"],["盧委員縣一：他就呼嘯而過啊！你也看不到。"],["薛部長富盛：對，呼嘯而過，事實上，他假如……"],["盧委員縣一：一個部落大概1到2公里的距離，他一下子就過去了。"],["薛部長富盛：所以那個的確是一個挑戰，盧委員，我想你也可以……"],["盧委員縣一：所以我想你們在做規劃的話，山上或者是旅遊地區，這個噪音的規範應該要更嚴格，可以嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：山上，特別是國家公園還是什麼，我們應該是有一個特別區域的噪音管制，那是一個加嚴的管制。"],["盧委員縣一：因為無論多少人在提，也沒有看到有人在取締，或者他們因此受罰，所以造成在山上生活的那些老人家困擾，大家都知道噪音的影響可能會引起老人家失眠，或者是一些認知上面的問題。"],["薛部長富盛：是，可以體會。"],["盧委員縣一：對，我覺得應該放一定的比例在山上，來防止這樣一個惡化的情形，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，我們來思考，盧委員也可以給我們建議，在哪些地方可能要特別來加強。"],["盧委員縣一：OK，現在針對近鄰噪音，我們也沒有辦法來量測，或者有一個具體的數據，讓大家能夠在生活上比較安靜，在國外通常是說10點以後就不要洗衣服了，在臺灣有這樣的規定嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：在臺灣，我們都知道，參加很多活動，基本上10點以後就不允許……"],["盧委員縣一：所以有沒有一個強制的規範？"],["薛部長富盛：這個部分的強制規範，因為活動的部分我比較不清楚，不曉得內政部對這個……"],["盧委員縣一：我覺得現在的近鄰噪音造成很多人生活上的困擾，因為每個人的上班時間不一樣，有的人上夜班，有的人回來是要補眠了，結果造成鄰居都在一些混亂的聲音……"],["薛部長富盛：跟盧委員報告，我們的噪音科技執法是沒有時間限制的，24小時都有在監測，超過……"],["盧委員縣一：也就是說你舉發他以後，他就會過來測嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：沒有，那個科技執法事實上就是全天候隨時都有記錄整個聲音的音波，同時還有攝影機針對那一部車拍攝，它的結構事實上是還滿複雜的一套設備，在我們的簡報裡面有一張圖。"],["盧委員縣一：OK，我希望針對近鄰噪音這邊可以多做努力，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，可以。"],["盧委員縣一：關於現在重機的罰則，我覺得太少了，我看你們的報告，那個罰金大概就3,000塊、3,600塊。"],["薛部長富盛：有，剛剛有談到。"],["盧委員縣一：這樣一個數值，一部重機大概都50萬以上，甚至到百萬了，這個罰金對他來講根本就不痛不癢。"],["薛部長富盛：所以他就沒有影響。"],["盧委員縣一：是不是？"],["薛部長富盛：對，我認同，我覺得我們應該要再思考，除了金錢的罰則，是不是還要上課或者做哪些更可以達到殺雞儆猴的效果。"],["盧委員縣一：對，大概有幾個方向。"],["薛部長富盛：好，請盧委員建議。"],["盧委員縣一：大概就是從WHO的一些規範，當然有來源的、有路徑的、有基礎設施的，甚至是一些硬體設備，最後就是你剛才講的行為的，我們希望在行為上面的教育，比如大部分使用這些重機的不是高社經地位的人，可能在學校生活上面要多一點教育，不然你很快樂，人家並不快樂，這樣的舉動……"],["薛部長富盛：是，要懂得尊重別人。"],["盧委員縣一：所以應該是從行為這邊來direction，我希望我們山上的生活品質，不能因為時代的進步而倒退，希望把這件事情能夠看得很重要，可以嗎？部長。"],["薛部長富盛：可以，我認同這種想法，就是罰鍰這種東西對某些人，他根本一點感覺都沒有。把他找去上課，而且告訴他懂得尊重別人。"],["盧委員縣一：是，要有一些罰則或者是處罰，應該要多元一點，讓他更困難或者是說不再觸法……"],["薛部長富盛：是，我覺得我們環境部跟交通部來檢討一下這一塊。"],["盧委員縣一：OK，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝盧委員。"],["主席：謝謝盧縣一委員的發言。","接下來請蘇清泉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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盧文 早好 早那我們先看一下噪音所造成對身體的影響大概我們現在的容許的標準越來越低了你大概知道現在的大概是設在哪裡嗎容許的一個噪音的比例分倍數有關哪一部分的噪音對身體的長期影響"},{"start":36.038,"end":58.219,"text":"你說對健康的對健康當然是希望在綠色的區域啊是那因為以前我們大概都想說如果是你要提高聲量來講話的話大概那個背景大概就是80分貝是那現在大概越來越嚴格希望能夠設定常態在53或54這裡大概有一個基礎的了解第二個就是下來"},{"start":60.004,"end":68.024,"text":"現在大家都知道說噪音是最高的一個所謂的公害那不知道有沒有去我們鄉下住宿過"},{"start":69.5,"end":93.17,"text":"我們部長如果我們在山上做生活的話大概6點會叫你起床的是村長的廣播村長的廣播村長廣播他會先放一段音樂讓大家知道說村長我要講話了那結果現在不是村長廣播叫醒我們大概5點多他們就那些起重機的就經過我們鄉間的道路所以現在是"},{"start":94.506,"end":108.912,"text":"眾機車的噪音叫醒我們的村民那怎麼樣取締都沒有用因為那個時間點不會有公務人員上班那你用取締的話取締的話根本就無人到場也無人舉證也無人去蒐證那上上"},{"start":109.692,"end":132.229,"text":"現在剛剛都前幾位委員都在講我們的那些檢測的設備根本就不夠你們說114年才會大概全省300多件那商商根本更不用講有這個設備我們連分配這件事情也都搞不太清楚那樣的一個設備我們連看都沒有看過那你說是在商商旅遊地區的話你要怎麼來監測或者說防止這樣的一個噪音的惡化"},{"start":133.496,"end":160.066,"text":"在山上基本上還是要靠人力跟捲舉因為然後這種噪音的檢測說真的為什麼我們現在要科技執法最主要是它是有一個非常短時間的那種現象它就呼嘯而過啊對呼嘯而過事實上你就它假如一個部落大概一到兩公里的距離它一下子就過去了所以那個的確是一個挑戰所以我在想說你們在做一個規劃的話山上或者是旅遊地區應該這個噪音的規範要更嚴格"},{"start":162.888,"end":163.029,"text":"可以嗎?"},{"start":164.49,"end":193.608,"text":"我們山上特別是國家公園還是什麼應該是有一個特別區域的噪音管制它那個是一個家園的 因為無論多少人在提也沒有看到有人在取締或者說他們因此受罰所以造成在山上生活的那些老人家大家都知道噪音的影響對老人家可能就會引起失眠啦或者是一些認知上面的問題 可以體會對 那我覺得啦應該要放一定的比例在山上來防止這樣的一個惡化好不好"},{"start":193.888,"end":221.31,"text":"好,我們來思考盧文也可以給我們建議在哪些地方可能要特別來加速那現在我們針對靜音噪音就是我們也沒有辦法說而來量測或者說一個具體的數據讓大家能夠生活上能夠比較安靜那通常在國外是說10點以後就不要洗衣服了那在台灣有這樣的一個規定嗎台灣譬如說我們都知道參加很多活動基本上10點以後就"},{"start":222.549,"end":222.709,"text":"週五、週五、週五、週五"},{"start":248.757,"end":273.563,"text":"沒有時間限制。24小時都有在監測。就是說你舉報他以後就過來測嗎?沒有沒有。那個科技指法事實上就前天後都隨時有記錄它的整個聲音的音波。那同時還有攝影機針對哪一部測。它的結構事實上是在我們的簡報裡面有一張圖。還蠻複雜的一套設備。那我希望針對靜靈噪音這邊可以多做努力好不好?"},{"start":274.344,"end":294.361,"text":"好OK好那現在就是關於我在想中基的一個罰則我覺得太少了我看看你們的報告裡面大概那個罰金大概都3000塊3600塊剛剛有談到這樣一個數值那真如果說一部中基大概都50萬以上甚至到百萬了按這個罰金對他來講根本就不痛不癢對對對我認同是不是"},{"start":295.882,"end":295.902,"text":"盧縣建議"},{"start":313.849,"end":315.61,"text":"在學校生活上可能要多一點教育﹖不然"},{"start":340.821,"end":360.324,"text":"你很快樂,人家並不快樂,這樣一個舉動是不是?所以應該是從行為這邊來interaction我希望我們商商的生活品質不能因為時代的進步而倒退希望把這件事情能夠看得很重要,可以嗎部長?可以,我認同這種想法"},{"start":362.15,"end":362.37,"text":"接下來請"}]}},{"id":"151518","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151518","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3360bdacc28aaf3fd1b97e999b50eca937cdcb4691eb09bf4e2ee0bf62688cb93ec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"09:57:55 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Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne四、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":82.56,"end":83.061,"text":"這個單位,11億,掩蓋在凍結書的凍結裡面,這個單位方便45億。主任。"},{"start":95.782,"end":97.684,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":114.281,"end":120.283,"text":"主任,因為說實在有的人都會說,他還貪心啦,他還會去訪騙,有時候環境的關係的時候,我又慢慢來討論一下,像看手機的時候,我之前在我們的委員會講過,我們的專家的"},{"start":136.331,"end":149.394,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne"},{"start":156.138,"end":157.94,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲"},{"start":174.226,"end":182.19,"text":"我跟委員報告打造辦公室成立沒開支啦!沒開支啦!都只用這個辦公室而已!另外再來就是說,若是說有那個...該議的主任!打造的工人裡面一定有辦的改變的組織裡面這個辦公室有開13頁的依存耶!這13頁都是在經濟事務及法務部"},{"start":200.818,"end":202.559,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":224.585,"end":225.986,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲"},{"start":246.34,"end":253.846,"text":"因為你有了解北省的訴求北省的問題就對了所以主任我要跟你說因為這個打仗影響到台灣的經濟非常地大我們不能說跟他們在各國各國跟你在台灣有什麼關係你要怎麼去打仗做出你的心結"},{"start":271.187,"end":279.05,"text":"主任,本次跟你講這裡是希望說,因為大家方便的心情跟他看來的方便,那種感受,你會體會到也知道。他委到、他方便、他要去報案的時候,叫他要去台北、叫他要去樹林、叫他要去哪裡的時候,"},{"start":293.629,"end":303.475,"text":"政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 proporting to the Committee of the Committee of the Committee of the Committee."},{"start":321.534,"end":324.378,"text":"處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":336.752,"end":344.658,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。breviation of Procedure of Procedure of Procedure of"},{"start":363.933,"end":369.415,"text":"我也跟我們整個董事會開過記者會說裡面的草案裡面也要放一個瓦理房因為有時候裡面的局長裡面的情形我們如果沒有有這個瓦理房來交協助的時候我相信你安法就對不上派人收詐騙的情形跟案件了"},{"start":390.858,"end":410.608,"text":"謝謝委員的指教有啦,我們有把這個窩裡犯的條款放在我們的專法裡面有啦,齁你如果說裡面的人有歡迎他其實我們是重新發落這個詐騙確實是整個世界各國也都面臨的問題英國最近才召集五個國家他們一年以後要支遷移民主席因為詐騙這個問題是全世界都有啦要不然全世界都有,我認為我們"},{"start":420.433,"end":428.379,"text":"台灣國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議員及國會議"},{"start":443.671,"end":464.561,"text":"臺灣隊可以說到臺灣隊比這樣我們要更加努力特別對詐騙犯的這些刑責還有像這些臉書等等他怎麼樣能夠我們由法院來要求現在都是用勸導用協調的方式如果有這個專法我相信這個打詐的那個效果會更好"},{"start":464.741,"end":471.084,"text":"好,來。來,主任先生。來,秘書長。我們是要跟你說最近有一些食品的問題。我們在食品的問題上,最近在這個環境上,你看你們發生感覺有問題的時候,又在國會覺得有問題。在這裡的操作的時候,你看九十二位。"},{"start":487.973,"end":494.596,"text":"你看這樣大家都做,那間也有問題,那間也有問題,是不是我們的動作太過慢,跟地方的聯繫不夠,因為本身所在的這個問題像最近爆零這個食品的問題,你看吃下去之後第20點鐘裡面,"},{"start":511.364,"end":521.671,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。breviation of Procedure of Procedure of Procedure"},{"start":541.419,"end":549.943,"text":"來,主委,在...不是要跟你說的,因為時間的關係我最主要就是說,你們的運動、你們的選團,不夠因為我有看到,你們也很好,自己鼓勵我一定會讓你們鼓勵在選團裡面、在座談裡面,你們有兩張,一張在台北,一張在嘉義,都有台語,就在選團,這非常好"},{"start":568.77,"end":581.043,"text":"讓北省了解你們做什麼因為尤其南部人可以聽出你們做什麼所謂營養很大所以在這裏本身要跟你說的就是你們選團裏面"},{"start":584.867,"end":585.688,"text":"議員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案。議員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":613.567,"end":629.15,"text":"我們的YOUTUBER我們希望我們的網站也要去因為你們這個時間太久的宣傳不夠積極主委在本省裡面時間也不夠但是我的用書面再給你們提供意見覺得你也可以回覆本省因為我覺得你有認真的做但是做不夠的"},{"start":641.013,"end":642.695,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"}]}},{"id":"151517","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151517","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3369caa3923bb0f1a267dee175bc8e0be1adcb4691eb09bf4e2e76c662ebc5f4a645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:55:26 - 10:06:01","影片長度":"00:10:35","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-10"},"duration":635,"end_time":"2024-04-22T10:06:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T09:55:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":237,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時55分）主席，麻煩請財政部莊部長。"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：部長好。今天各個委員還有黨團提出娛樂稅法，這個娛樂稅法因為是地方稅，所以它的稽徵單位應該是各地稅捐稽徵處，而不是國稅局吧？"],["莊部長翠雲：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果這樣的話，就是因為法令是中央制定，所以才會來談這個問題。"],["莊部長翠雲：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：可是這有一個觀念，中央政府跟地方政府是夥伴關係，其實地方政府也有立法機關，就是他們的議會，那何不考量乾脆就在這裡把稅捐稽徵法規定，每一個地方政府、縣市層級他們可以自行來決定，當然那個稅目部分的調整、考量，不然你看那麼多地方政府的財政單位首長來到這個地方，然後每一個地方的狀況又不一樣，大家的意見不見得能夠完全一致相同。我舉一個例子，有幾個縣市是沒有高爾夫球場的，因為談高爾夫球場是不是要排除在娛樂稅的範圍內，那沒有高爾夫球場的就不干他的事啊！有高爾夫球場的，像我們新北市可能就不見得會贊成，或許他有他自己的考量也不一定。不過，既然中央政府跟地方政府是夥伴關係，那地方政府因地制宜，他有他適當的考量，這應該是一個合理的規劃啊！你覺得呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：是，委員說得很是，娛樂稅是屬於地方稅，我們娛樂稅法裡面有規定，像第二條有相關的課稅項目，第五條也有稅率的上限，我們也知道，隨著社會經濟的發展跟娛樂活動的多元化，我們當然也要考慮。所以這個部分，財政部也邀請地方政府來開會，第一個，他們的意見是不宜廢止，因為這是他們地方很重要的一個財源，尤其在縣裡面是鄉鎮收的都歸鄉鎮，那對他們來說是一個重要財源，所以不宜廢止。第二個部分，項目可以做一些調整，因為社會經濟的演變，所以可以做調整。再者，稅率的上限也可以做調整，因為事實上，他們實質都沒有課到那麼高。"],["吳委員秉叡：問題是可以調整，你調整考慮了17年也沒調整啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是。另外就是剛剛委員也提到，我們這次也考慮到是不是可以賦予地方政府一個權，也就是說，他們因為自己的政策目的，或以他們的經濟發展，他可以對某一些項目做停徵；我想這個部分大概有三個方向，但是還沒有到完全一致啦！因為項目跟稅率的部分，地方政府也還沒有一個更高的共識，所以關於這個部分，我們會繼續跟他們討論，謀取一個共識。"],["吳委員秉叡：我的意思是說，連項目跟最高稅率都可以讓他們自行考慮，我跟你講，總共才18億，如果依照臺灣現在的政府光六都絕對占大多數，其他縣市都是只有很小、很小的比例，有的縣市可能百萬，甚至整個縣也才千萬，現在大家的意見又不一致，你檢討稅目跟項目，乾脆連稅率都下放嘛！因為金額對中央政府來講小，對地方政府來講，可能他們有他們的考量，那你何不就以夥伴關係來講，只要中央說有一個娛樂稅，你可以訂定，那由地方自己來訂定！如果今天有一個地方政府，我跟你說，現在地方政府的首長都是民選的，你說他把那個稅目，就是稅基增加很多，不可能啦！要把那個稅率拉得很高，事實上也不可能啦！沒有人要跟自己開玩笑啦！誰要跟自己的選票對抗？所以你不用替他擔心這一些啦！我是覺得這件事情與其每一屆立法院，我在這邊財政委員會已經第4屆了，每一屆都吵這個事情，我覺得我們真的不需要管那麼多啊！你就乾脆讓地方政府去決定嘛，地方政府也有立法機關，他們可以立地方的單行法規，我們只要說，依照現在的規定，地方政府可以訂定娛樂稅自己的稅則、自己去管理，徵稅的機關也是稅捐稽徵處，不是你國稅局，也不是你管的啊！所以現在唯一的就是因為你只有管這個法律啊！"],["莊部長翠雲：是啊！"],["吳委員秉叡：但你看你管法令，每一年這麼多位委員，新來的委員都不知道以前我們都談過，這個每一屆都談過，我跟羅明才大概知道每一屆都有談啦，結果每一屆都要一直來、一直來，我覺得這不是辦法，所以我建議你考慮看看啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：好，委員的建議，我們一定納入考量。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，請回座。我們請金管會黃主委。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["主席：請回。請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["吳委員秉叡：黃主委，第一個議題就是關於對外國投資比例的限制，其實這些保險公司如果為公司的利益計算，都是以獲利最大的原則，因為它的獲利就是全體保戶的保障，它賺越多錢，全體的保戶越有保障，對不對？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：話說回來，不得不的困難就是在臺灣的債券市場、臺灣的投資市場，在早年的時候到現在的演變，使得我們龐大的資金，臺灣的資本投資市場沒有辦法整個把它消化掉。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：你認為我們臺灣長天期的債券，為什麼在臺灣這麼不風行呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實現在發行的部分，大部分被幾家金融機構都買了，而且買了之後就持有到到期，也沒有什麼交易。"],["吳委員秉叡：最主要原因是因為不夠大，譬如說政府債券，可能總共金額才發行了2,000億、3,000億，當然一出來就被買光了，因為你的資金是算多少兆的啊！有沒有可能除了政府的公債之外，我說的長天期債券也不一定是只有政府公債，非常優質、非常好的公司發行長天期債券也是有，外國也是有啊！那為什麼我們臺灣這部分不風行呢？是我們債券的發行，證期局那邊控管得太嚴嗎？"],["黃主任委員天牧：其實臺灣跟美國來講，很大的差別是美國以直接金融為主。"],["吳委員秉叡：是。"],["黃主任委員天牧：臺灣大概通常用銀行貸款就解決公司的資金需求，當然有一點是跟財政部有關係，但是我們並沒有多提，因為財政部對公債有一個比例，而且通常是以財政目的去發，可是不同的政府有時候不是以財政目的發，它就是不斷地在發，這也是一種方式，但是我們尊重財政部它有它的政策。"],["吳委員秉叡：我知道啊！因為臺灣就是希望穩定，CPI不要高。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以通常不能高，像美國那樣的國家，動不動CPI有時候都好幾%，所以它發行了長天期債券來講，長天期發行如果遇到幾次通膨，它發行的債券對它來講是很有利啊！"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為通膨會把那個獲利吃掉嘛！"],["黃主任委員天牧：它就是美元……"],["吳委員秉叡：是啊！另外就是臺灣中央銀行也好，政府也好，很努力在控制物價。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我們的CPI通常都是控制在2%左右。"],["黃主任委員天牧：也不希望借款太多。"],["吳委員秉叡：對，所以我們的債券市場就變得不活潑。可是你要知道，回過頭來講，有利就有弊，在外國的投資避險成本就變得很高，像去年壽險的部分，光避險成本一年就花掉臺灣3,700億元。"],["黃主任委員天牧：這就是過去這幾年都在替業者解決這個問題，這的確是得失之間的兩面。"],["吳委員秉叡：這本來就是在走平衡的鋼索。"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以考慮另外一個點，如果現在突然之間把法令降下來，他投資的是長天期的債券，你是不是逼他必須要把長天期賣掉，那當然會蒙受重大的損失，這也是一個一個大的問題，那麼多資金回來臺灣，臺幣會變強、會升值，全世界美金已經過度強勢，臺幣還要比美金更強勢，那對我們的外銷產業來講會是非常重大的打擊，所以這個是牽一髮動全身。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，所以我們在報告中有說明我們的關切。"],["吳委員秉叡：第二個問題就是關於第一百七十七條，因為過去界定這部分到底是僱傭，還是委任、還是承攬，甚至是居間，在大法官會議解釋裡面說這四種都有可能，它都有不同的型態，如果全部把它強制變成是僱傭，會有什麼樣的缺點？"],["黃主任委員天牧：當然對業者來講，僱傭的要求，對業務員來講，彈性可能會變得比較少，當然這裡面成本上，僱傭也許對一些業務員本身的福利、保險可能有一些要求，這也是牽一髮而動全身。"],["吳委員秉叡：就變成不靈活啦！"],["黃主任委員天牧：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為有一些保險，可能幾個人組成經紀人公司或什麼東西，現在這些業務員全部都要變成僱傭。大法官760號解釋本身就說這是僱傭、委任、承攬還是居間，要視他們簽訂的契約，依每一個契約認定，如果你已經被認定為僱傭，當然就有勞動基準法的適用。"],["黃主任委員天牧：是，沒錯。"],["吳委員秉叡：但是如果你的契約被定義為居間、委任或是承攬，他當然就不適用勞動基準法。最後的解決機關是法院，法院會決定這件事情，所以這個也是牽一髮而動全身。今天這個法案都茲事體大，沒有一件是小事，所以要慎重以對……"],["黃主任委員天牧：以前也在財委會討論過很多次。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以在這個地方想謝謝你很穩健的努力，我們繼續努力。謝謝。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。接著請賴士葆委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 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案件及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法�"},{"start":76.994,"end":77.014,"text":"案。"},{"start":93.993,"end":104.358,"text":"所以過去我們要講清楚不是你們說的這樣你們只要想無所不用其極來破壞執政你們現在再也想執政嘛把國家全部顛倒嘛"},{"start":119.301,"end":133.987,"text":"你還可以上來講如此的話我一直講說你們上來就要問這個問題來直球對決黃國昌又跑了我都不期待剛才黃國昌講話的時候是針對法案來講要搞到邊了黃國昌說我們一排還有什麼好說的當然我很清楚這個事情嘛"},{"start":140.772,"end":160.736,"text":"從沒有針對這本案能力有用私自核心教育來談。不然是你敢談你的法案嗎?我會給他法案叫他出來打球嘛。那國安兵要去,國安國會去殺,要去問問民進黨那套。怎麼說,有時候貪腐,貪腐你就去檢舉啊。你現在活在這種民粹底下,你跟崇禎成齊卵。"},{"start":166.724,"end":184.277,"text":"我不是鼓勵說這個318,我是從這個引誼出來。因為禮拜六參加318時政委員的座談會,很多人都很感慨。我說此時此刻的台灣,它在10年前318的反基民根本不合法,那時候是反紅帽。"},{"start":187.175,"end":187.375,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":206.614,"end":217.44,"text":"好 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watching you,你真的瘋了,真的,這個人吼,帶領了民進黨,因為可以威權繼續的下去,好,在野黨講的話不愛聽,"},{"start":188.069,"end":208.34,"text":"叫搞群眾運動叫來霸佔立法院這種王權思想啊腐敗的封建思想到今天還在立法院今天所有在野黨都是按照議事規則民進黨做的就是議事規則在野黨做的就不是議事規則就在那威脅恐嚇"},{"start":209.707,"end":234.672,"text":"案（三）委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案 案（三）委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案 案．委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案 案．委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案 案．委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條"},{"start":239.369,"end":239.389,"text":"案。"}]}},{"id":"151514","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151514","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336b1b13317bf2d4064c59641e9d13ec658dcb4691eb09bf4e2de75427302bf28855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯建銘","委員發言時間":"09:52:22 - 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10:04:10","影片長度":"00:10:09","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":609,"end_time":"2024-04-22T10:04:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T09:54:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":406,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（9時54分）謝謝主席，我們有請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，本席想請教你，對於新任環境部部長人選彭啟明先生，他是氣象達人，你認為以他的專業度來擔任環境部部長，在各方面條件上，是不是最適合的人選，還是有比他更適合的人選？因為之前傳出來的人選不是他，而是包括張皇珍女士或是其他人，他們真的都是環工背景出身的。"],["薛部長富盛：王委員對於彭準部長的看法我尊重，但是以我個人的看法，我覺得他很有專業，特別是在大氣、氣象、空氣污染跟國際合作上，當然，其他領域他可能沒有涉獵，但他也可以透過他在其他產業的經驗，以及未來跟我們部內主管同仁再慢慢學習……"],["王委員育敏：你認為他的專業有沒有超越你？在環境相關的專業上面，他有沒有超越你？因為我們希望部長是越換越專業越好，你認為他有沒有比你優秀？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上，他有他的專業，我們尊重。"],["王委員育敏：是氣象專業我知道啦，但是目前中央氣象署是隸屬在交通部。"],["薛部長富盛：但是環境部監測資訊司、大氣司事實上跟氣象署合作有很長久時間，關係非常密切，譬如像今年2、3月份，我們跟NASA……"],["王委員育敏：好，好，這個話題我想到此打住，或許部長你也不適宜對新部長有一些評論，不過本席認為環境部各部門大家其實都很有專業，比較不是政治考量，我們當然希望部長也要以專業取勝，而不是只要跟準總統關係比較親近，就可以擔任這個位子，這是我們期待的。當然，我也謝謝部長，你是專業出身，大家對你其實也有期待，8個月時間本席是認為太短了一點，應該讓你有更多時間，可以把你相關的專業跟長才發揮得更淋漓盡致才對。","好，進到今天的主題，部長，你是臺中出來的，你在臺中的時候，有沒有半夜睡覺被惱人的機車、汽車噪音吵醒過？"],["薛部長富盛：有。"],["王委員育敏：有，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：對，正好住在大馬路旁邊，所以……"],["王委員育敏：很惱人，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["王委員育敏：這個的確是……"],["薛部長富盛：所以我很認同這個要取締。"],["王委員育敏：是，這個是民怨之首，但是要取締，我們就要看怎麼有效的取締。事實上，噪音案件已經飆增56%，如果都要靠環警監，要動用基層的環保局人員、警察人員三更半夜10點到凌晨6點在那邊站崗，這個叫勞師動眾，真的會累死人……"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["王委員育敏：恐怕稽查人員做不久就會過勞，所以本席覺得最有效的方式，應該是透過科技執法。"],["薛部長富盛：認同。"],["王委員育敏：認同，好，所謂科技執法就是透過照相跟聲音的部分就可以直接取締開罰，這是最有效的方式，但是我們看看這張圖表，部長，我希望您在離任之前，在這件事情上要全力支持，科技執法可以提升執法的量能，也可以減少人力，但是目前全國的設備只有210套，固定109套、移動101套……"],["薛部長富盛：太少了！"],["王委員育敏：真的太少了！目前我們看到的問題一個是少，一個是分布不均。你看看，臺中市人口即將邁入285萬，比臺北市還要多，但是光看六都的分配，臺中市13部，臺北市23部，新北市36部；臺中市的人口比臺北市多，為什麼會有這種落差？我不知道環境部在補助上面，是按照人口數、幅員大小，還是機車數量？在補助上，你們有沒有什麼樣的標準？因為我看完這張圖表，老實說我不知道標準在哪裡？"],["薛部長富盛：跟王委員報告，剛開始才210部，的確有一點分配不均，我會責成環境部同仁再來檢討，但是更重要的是，既然大家認同科技執法最有效，而且不會勞師動眾，那我們也很期待委員將來能夠幫忙環境部爭取更多的資源。"],["王委員育敏：我一定大力支持，但是你們預算編列太少，我現在要告訴部長，114年編列預算1.9億要設置96部，分配到二十幾個縣市……"],["薛部長富盛：不是，是306部啦！"],["王委員育敏：你是要增設96部，還是306部？"],["薛部長富盛：王委員，到明年底是306部，本來是……"],["王委員育敏：因為你們的語意有點不清楚。"],["薛部長富盛：本來112年到116年編列1.9億要買306部，我們現在把時間縮短到114年，提早2年就達到……"],["王委員育敏：是明年就可以？"],["薛部長富盛：增加306部……"],["王委員育敏：是增加306部？"],["薛部長富盛：是，是，我們會把這個數目儘量把它……"],["王委員育敏：那我問你，臺中市政府有行文給你們需要50部，你們未來、明年要新增306部，那他們想要的數量可以達到嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我想我們同仁應該有一些計算公式，不過針對王委員的這一點意見，我們將來會特別留意，好不好？因為……"],["王委員育敏：我今天也不是只幫臺中市爭取，而是這個問題很惱人。"],["薛部長富盛：是，我知道。"],["王委員育敏：我去年也擔任副市長，您也是臺中出身。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["王委員育敏：臺中問題很嚴重，我知道像桃園其實也很嚴重。"],["薛部長富盛：對。"],["王委員育敏：新北其實也很嚴重，大家都很嚴重，現在既然環境部要編足，我希望你們要聽見地方的聲音。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["王委員育敏：地方需要的量，你們就應該一次把它編足，因為明年的預算還沒有要審，如果現在部裡面編的還不夠，其實環境部各樣的預算很多，針對民怨之首，我覺得環境部如果用力地去做，大家會很有感，而且會很感謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：OK。"],["王委員育敏：雖然您上任不到一年，但是如果您可以回去好好督導環境部，在520之前讓大家把這個預算編足，也讓各地方政府感受到，中央、環境部很重視大家，也不要讓我們地方的這些環保局人員過勞的話，我覺得這是一個很大的政績，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝王委員的支持。"],["王委員育敏：我們全力來支持，你要督促部裡把這件事情做好。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝，我們來努力。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。另外一個是我們燃油機車數量居高不下的問題，這個在空污中是我們的移動污染源，這個管制在燃油機車就占了一個非常大的比例，你看這個圖表，每一年我們的燃油機車數量還在成長。"],["薛部長富盛：對啊。"],["王委員育敏：已經來到1,384萬，雖然我們的電動機車有在成長，但坦白講成長的幅度並不算太高。"],["薛部長富盛：很慢，是，沒錯。"],["王委員育敏：所以在這個部分，今天交通部林福山司長也有來，我覺得這件事情也不是只有環境部的責任，因為主管燃油機車的其實是交通部，交通部這邊的資源也很多啊！是不是跟環境部討論，用一個更有效的政策？我們來有效地引導，讓電動機車的增加能有效去汰換燃油機車，而不是兩個數字都增加。目前我看起來，民眾好像機車汰換後會再買的比例也很高，然後會再買燃油機車的比例也很高，所以我們想要達到改善空污，想要達到更節能減碳等各方面，好像離那個目標都很遙遠，這個部分除了現行的這些補貼政策，我希望交通部跟環境部好好來討論，特別是交通部，在這個議題上面怎麼樣有效地引導，透過你們的政策，讓大家願意去換電動機車的比例再提高，不要再繼續購買燃油車，這個交通部有沒有什麼想法？"],["林司長福山：這個部分跟委員報告一下，運具電動化裡面，剛剛提到，包括電動大客車、電動小客車。"],["王委員育敏：對，這部分做得很好。"],["林司長福山：還包括電動機車。"],["王委員育敏：我覺得公車做得很好，但是機車做得不好。"],["林司長福山：現在就是說，2040年電動小客車跟電動機車，我們原則上希望達到市售比百分之百，目前是在這個過程當中，剛剛委員所提到的就是針對電動小客車還有電動機車的部分，目前交通部跟經濟部還有環保署，我們三個部會會通力來合作，目前是每年都有設定市售比要達到的一個目標。"],["王委員育敏：你們的目標是什麼？"],["林司長福山：目前的標準大概是各有分點目標，但是整體的部分是，希望到2040新車的市售比全部都是電動。"],["王委員育敏：好，這個我提醒司長跟部長，2040是設一個遠程的沒錯，但你要達到這個遠程目標，你必須在每一年的分年、短期的跟中期的，也要有一定的目標，如果過程中沒有達到，那個結果是達不到的，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["王委員育敏：所以畫那麼美的藍圖、願景在那邊，但是如果我們現在看到的數字都還是居高不下，都還在成長，那就有修正的空間。"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["王委員育敏：我待會兒會有一個臨提，這個回去之後，你們要有一個比較具體的檢討跟修正方案出來，好不好？"],["薛部長富盛：OK，謝謝王委員。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝薛部長。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員。現在先作宣告：等一下在黃秀芳委員質詢結束，休息10分鐘。","現在請盧縣一委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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4提早兩年明年就可以增加306是增加306步是是 那就會把這個數目盡量把它那我問你臺中市政府有新聞給你們他要50步你們在未來明年的這306步他們想要的數量這樣達得到嗎"},{"start":347.826,"end":367.393,"text":"我想我們同仁他們應該有一些計算公式不過我想這個王委員這一點我們將來特別留意好不好我希望的就是說我今天也不是只是幫台中市爭取是這一個問題很惱人我去年也擔任副市長您也是台中出身那台中問題很嚴重我知道像桃園其實也很嚴重"},{"start":368.733,"end":389.6,"text":"新北京很嚴重大家都很嚴重那現在既然環境部要編組我希望你們要聽見地方的聲音地方需要的量我們就一次應該把它編組因為明年的預算還沒有要審那如果你現在部裡面編的還不夠其實環境部各樣的預算很多針對民怨之首我覺得環境部如果用力的去做大家會很有感"},{"start":390.04,"end":410.459,"text":"而且會很感謝部長您這個雖然上任不到一年但是如果這個是您可以回去好好督導環境部在520之前讓大家把這個預算編足也讓各地方政府感受到說這個中央環境部很重視大家也不要讓我們的地方的這些環保局的人員過老的話我覺得這是一個很大的政績"},{"start":411.98,"end":433.016,"text":"好不好,我們全力來支持,那你要督促部內把這件事情做好好,謝謝那另外一個就是我們的那個燃油機車數量居高不下的問題這個空污我們機動的污染源這個管制在這個燃油機車這個就佔一個非常大的比例那你看這個圖表"},{"start":433.917,"end":440.701,"text":"我們每一年我們的燃油機車數量還在成長已經來到1384萬那雖然我們的電動機車有在成長那成長的幅度坦白講並不算太高那所以在這個部分今天交通部也有來這個交通部我們的林司長林福山司長我覺得這件事情也不是只有這個環境部的責任因為這個主管"},{"start":459.993,"end":481.14,"text":"主管這個燃油機車這個其實是交通部那怎麼樣是不是交通部認證資源也很多啊跟環境部討論用一個更有效的這個政策我們來有效的引導讓電動機車的增加是有效去汰換燃油機車而不是兩個數字都增加目前我看起來這個就是民眾好像"},{"start":482.721,"end":482.761,"text":"韓國瑜委員會議"},{"start":511.898,"end":532.727,"text":"願意去換電動機車的比例再更提高不要再繼續購買燃油車這個交通部有沒有什麼想法?這個部分跟委員報告一下就是說運氣電動化裡面剛剛提到包括電動大客車包括電動對 這部分做得很好包括電動機車我覺得公車做得很好但機車做得不好對 那現在就是說在2040"},{"start":534.088,"end":558.789,"text":"那這個電動小客車跟電動機車我們原則上就是希望達到市售比百分之百的部分那目前是在這個過程當中那剛剛委員所提到的部分的話就是針對這個電動小客車還有電動機車的部分的話目前交通部跟經濟部還有環保署我們三個部會會通力來這個合作那目前是設定每年每年都有這個市售比的一個這個達到的一個這個目標你們的標準是什麼"},{"start":559.95,"end":585.633,"text":"目前的標準大概就是說各有分年目標但是整體的部分就是說希望到2040那這個市售比新車的部分全部都是電動好 這個我提醒市長跟部長2040是設一個遠程的沒錯但你要達到這個遠程你必須每一年的分年短期的跟中期的你也要有一定的目標你如果過程沒有那個結果是達不到的好不好"},{"start":585.993,"end":586.133,"text":"王育敏委員"}]}},{"id":"151512","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151512","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3361711219b57b8f08497e999b50eca937cdcb4691eb09bf4e2f46c87f22c9e3f6e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:49:55 - 09:57:43","影片長度":"00:07:48","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計8案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計1案。\n三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。\n四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案。）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-13"},"duration":468,"end_time":"2024-04-22T09:57:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T09:49:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":237,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（9時49分）謝謝主席。有請秘書長跟打詐辦公室。"],["主席：好，請秘書長，還有打詐辦公室主任。"],["李秘書長孟諺：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：早安！今天我們討論預算解凍案，因為是總體業務，所以其實有蠻多都在討論範圍之內，本席先就一個打詐的特別案例跟行政院還有打詐辦公室做一個研討。當然我們都非常同意打擊詐騙應該是各式各樣的手段都要用，然後用盡所有的方法，從嚴地來處理詐騙的問題，我想不分黨派、不分執政在野，大家都同意這樣的事情。當然今天要花時間去檢討打詐執行的成效，大概用這幾分鐘的時間也講不清楚，但是我要講一個特殊的案例，這算是在本席選區發生的一個特別的事情，也就是詐騙集團猖獗的間接受害人即警示帳戶的存款人，請問分得出來什麼叫警示帳戶、什麼叫衍生性管制帳戶嗎？要不要簡單說明一下？"],["李秘書長孟諺：是，我是不是請……"],["牛委員煦庭：由主任說明也可以，都可以，沒關係。"],["李秘書長孟諺：因為這個比較細節。"],["李主任憲明：跟委員報告，所謂的警示帳戶就是這個帳戶曾經有過詐騙的行為，包括借給詐騙集團使用。另外，衍生性帳戶就是有其他跟它相關的不同銀行的帳戶，我們都一併列入管制。"],["牛委員煦庭：也就是說，警示帳戶的程度是比較高的，衍生性帳戶相對來講沒有那麼嚴格嘛！對不對？大體上沒錯，方向是這樣子喔！我跟你講一個個案，倒楣鬼某A是一位汽車引擎技師，他只是幫客戶B保養汽車，保養汽車當然就要收錢，所以客戶B就把保養費用轉入A的銀行帳戶，客戶B本身不管是怎麼樣的原因，他有跟詐騙集團配合，所以他的帳戶跟詐騙集團有金流往來，在受害人報案之後當然就開始查辦，對不對？可是在查辦的時候，因為你要從嚴處置，所以大家的帳戶通通變成所謂的警示帳戶，就因為B跟詐騙有關，他有匯錢給A，他們之間彼此有金流往來，雖然明明就是一筆正常的業務交易，但是A的帳戶也被列成警示帳戶。我只是一個汽車維修員，怎麼那麼倒楣，做了一個生意，因為我的客戶牽涉詐騙，結果我自己的帳戶也被設成所謂的警示帳戶，很長一段時間都沒有辦法動用相關的款項。那遇到這樣的事情，大家當然就循線來處理，採一定的救濟方式，請問主任，他要救濟的時候應該走什麼樣的程序？"],["李主任憲明：如果這個金流確實跟詐騙沒有直接的關係，金管會這邊會做一個通融的處置，我們也希望在經過查證之後，確實沒有關係的就能夠適度降低對這個帳戶的管制。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，你剛剛講的，當然嘛！大家在經過事實的查明之後就予以通融處置，不過你清楚實際上的程序是什麼嗎？"],["李主任憲明：這個細節我比較不瞭解。"],["牛委員煦庭：就是申請人要檢附證明文件，然後親赴戶籍地或現住地的警察分局偵查隊、刑警大隊請求釐清原委，就是到警察機關去尋求幫忙，警察方面相關的偵查隊或刑警大隊發現有誤設狀況的時候，就要發公文書給金融機構解除警示，然後還要註明解除帳號、原因跟代號，然後受通報的金融機構還要要求檢附民眾解除警示帳戶申請書，所以程序其實非常的複雜。當然打詐的方向是好的，但是實際上在這個過程中有沒有牽連到很多不相關的人士，我覺得這部分政府機關對行政流程方面其實可以做一些討論跟檢討，看看有沒有比較簡單、便民的方式可以來處理，因為目前可以通報警示帳戶也就是把你的帳戶鎖起來的單位，法院可以，檢察署可以，司法警察機關也可以，一旦列為警示帳戶，有的時候會長達兩年，然後剛剛我講的這些行政程序其實是非常繁瑣的。那我現在就要問了，理論上按照法理來講，警示帳戶的實質效果其實跟扣押基本上是相同的，對不對？就完全限制了這個財產權嘛！對不對？"],["李主任憲明：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：可是一般的扣押如果從法律上角度來講，就要有令狀原則，也就是說法院核發搜索票等等，你才有辦法去做扣押的行為，然而警示帳戶這個封鎖的動作顯然比扣押簡單，可是達成了一樣的效果，那我現在就要問，政府機關針對這樣的狀況怎麼在維持打詐強度的情況之下避免牽連無辜？有沒有一些檢討跟改善的方向？"],["李主任憲明：謝謝委員的指教，我們對於打詐當然要嚴予懲處，但是只要跟打詐沒有直接關聯的，我們會從輕來發落，就是如果能夠提出確切證明然後也能夠詳細說明資金流跟詐騙集團沒有關係，我們會請金管會對這一部分要適度的放寬。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，因為今天談的層級、今天來的都是行政院的長官，我想你們有跨部會所以瞭解內政部警政的作為、瞭解金管會或怎麼樣，所以應該要召開一個協商的平臺，讓這種案例可以被妥善處理，也就是說，也許是用衍生管制帳戶的方式，解凍的時候，相對來講，它的程序也好、標準也好，是相對寬鬆的，速度要加快啦！其實一般的人民會願意基於打擊詐騙去配合警方的調查，大家都會配合啦！但是如果他可以很明確地證明清白，我希望在行政流程的過程之中，程序可以不要那麼繁瑣，他又要跑警察局，又要跑銀行，中間還要等公文往返，我覺得這個速度常常是很慢的，你們在經過商量跟討論之後是不是能夠有一個機制，比如說有一個時間？至少在遇到這樣的事情時有一個明確的時間依據，也就是說，我開始提出申請之後7天或十幾天，我可以在快速的行政流程的情況之下，我可以讓它比較簡單的來解凍。至少這個汽車維修員為了要配合政府機關進行調查，我可能有一個禮拜、兩個禮拜，也許最多一個月的時間，我的帳戶為了配合調查可能不能用，但是我可以很明確地知道什麼時候我就可以用，至少他在調度他自己的財務或在做生意的時候不會受到太多的衝擊。現在就是在你沒有明確的標準跟機制的時候，那會沒完沒了，我不知道這什麼時候才會解凍，很有可能就會影響到很多事情，我是覺得這樣子牽連太深了。"],["李主任憲明：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以這部分什麼時候可以提供一個完整的說明？"],["李主任憲明：我們會請金管會來研議，我覺得只要跟詐騙集團沒有關係，就不應該受這麼嚴格的管控，那這個也影響到個人的權利還有整體經濟的發展。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席完全贊成打擊詐騙的行為，附帶效果就是衝擊民眾的部分，救濟的制度要相對完備，所以你們行政院要多久的時間研商一套比較明確的SOP？"],["李主任憲明：好，我們在一個月之內。"],["牛委員煦庭：一個月之內好不好？"],["李主任憲明：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：研商一個完整的SOP，以這個救濟的形式讓不相干的人不要因為這樣而受到衝擊，但是打詐的力道當然還是一點都不能輕、不能減下來，可以嗎？"],["李主任憲明：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：本席本來還有準備另外一個租屋市場的題目，但是因為禮拜三我們還有別的解凍案，那我們就在內政部在的時候來做討論。我們就針對打詐這個題目請辦公室還有行政院這邊加強處理，我們一個月之後繼續追蹤，可以嗎？"],["李主任憲明：好，可以。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，謝謝，辛苦了！"],["主席：好，謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢。現在請王美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-13","speakers":["吳琪銘","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃建賓","丁學忠","高金素梅","張智倫","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","黃國昌","麥玉珍","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計 8案；二、處理113年度中\n央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案；四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨\n產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案","agenda_id":"1133201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.0434687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.0434687500000002,"end":2.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.34284375,"end":2.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.75159375,"end":5.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.98784375,"end":6.021593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.021593750000001,"end":6.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.08909375,"end":6.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.40096875,"end":52.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.73159375,"end":58.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.67159375000001,"end":58.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.26221875,"end":64.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.78096875000001,"end":62.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.94909375,"end":86.54909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.75159375000001,"end":86.78534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.78534375000001,"end":94.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.86909375,"end":90.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.80096875000001,"end":107.42346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.99721875,"end":110.22471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.96721875,"end":152.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.73284375,"end":153.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.54284375,"end":160.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.59221875,"end":166.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.94159375,"end":175.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.49284375000002,"end":180.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.49221875,"end":187.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.05221875,"end":189.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.68909375,"end":193.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.02596875,"end":220.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.34659375,"end":255.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.80096875000004,"end":261.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.98159375,"end":262.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.21784375000004,"end":273.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.25159375000004,"end":262.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.92909375,"end":289.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.12909375000004,"end":292.69409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.94721875,"end":314.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.55159375,"end":361.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.72284375000004,"end":324.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.31346875,"end":325.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.25721875000005,"end":367.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.50096875,"end":368.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.05346875000004,"end":400.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.54221875,"end":401.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.36909375000005,"end":404.25471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.47409375,"end":417.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.05846875000003,"end":431.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.73284375000003,"end":422.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.44471875000005,"end":434.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.85346875000005,"end":434.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.56221875000006,"end":460.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.08971875000003,"end":468.22784375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.29,"end":1.953,"text":"打造辦公室主任"},{"start":8.862,"end":32.782,"text":"今天因為討論這個預算凍結案嘛那因為是總體業務啦所以其實蠻多都在討論範圍之內所以本席先就打詐的一個特別的案例跟這個行政院跟打詐辦公室做一個研討這個當然啦我們都非常同意就是說打擊詐騙你應該要各式各樣的手段都要用然後用盡所有的方法重演來處理這個詐騙的問題這我想大家不分黨派不分"},{"start":33.442,"end":57.324,"text":"指正在野大家都同意這樣的事情當然你今天花時間去檢討說打詐執行的成效大概這幾分鐘的時間也講不清楚但是我要講一個特殊的案例這算是本席選區發生的一個特別的事情也就是說詐騙集團猖獗的間接受害人叫做警示帳戶的存款人這分得出來什麼叫警示帳戶嗎?什麼叫衍生性管制帳戶嗎?要不要簡單說明一下"},{"start":59.975,"end":86.261,"text":"我是不是請...主任說明可以,都可以沒關係比較細節好,跟委員報告所謂的警示賬戶說就是在這個賬戶曾經有過這個詐騙的行為包括這個借用的這個詐騙借用詐騙集團的使用那另外衍生性賬戶就是說那有其他的跟他相關的其他的不同的這個銀行我們都一併列入管制"},{"start":86.843,"end":109.998,"text":"也就是說解釋帳戶的程度是比較高的嘛,衍生性相對來講它沒有那麼嚴格嘛,對不對?大局長沒錯,方向是這樣子喔。我覺得你講一個個案喔,這個倒霉鬼啊,某A啊,是一位汽車引擎技師,他只是幫客戶B啊,保養汽車,然後收,當然就保養汽車收錢嘛,所以這客戶B就把這個保養費用轉入A的銀行帳戶。好,這個客戶B啊,他本身是"},{"start":110.879,"end":112.88,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 Minne4、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案"},{"start":134.073,"end":160.767,"text":"但是明明就是一筆正常的業務交易啊但是A的帳戶也被列成警示帳戶我只是個汽車維修員那麼多倒霉做了一個生意因為我的客戶牽涉詐騙結果我自己的帳戶也被設成所謂的警示帳戶很長一段時間都沒有辦法動用啊這個相關的這個款項那遇到這樣的事情大家都求這個當然就循線來處理救濟方式請問啊主任啊這救濟的時候他應該走什麼樣的程序"},{"start":162.253,"end":186.986,"text":"我們同意他如果說這個金流確實跟詐騙沒有直接的關係那金管會這邊會做一個通融的處置那我們也希望說這個經過查證之後確實沒有關係的所以能夠適度降低的這個賬戶的管制對就是說你剛剛講說當然嘛就是大家會經過適時的查明之後就予以通融處置不過實際上的程序是什麼你清楚嗎"},{"start":188.76,"end":205.429,"text":"這個細節我比較不瞭解這個申請人要檢附文件親附這個設定警示戶籍地或限住地的警察分局、偵查隊、刑警大隊請求釐清原委到警察機關去尋求這個幫忙警察就相關的偵查隊或刑警大隊發現有誤設的狀況的時候他要發公文書"},{"start":208.371,"end":208.431,"text":"凍結書面報告案"},{"start":221.877,"end":233.327,"text":"這就是程序其實非常複雜那其實當然打仗的方向是好的但是實際上在這個過程中有沒有牽連到很多不相關的人士我覺得這部分政府機關這個行政流程方面其實可以做一些討論跟檢討看看有沒有比較簡單辨明的一個方式來處理"},{"start":239.272,"end":248.762,"text":"因為目前可以通報警視帳戶也就是把你的帳戶鎖起來的單位法院可以、檢察署可以、司法警察機關也可以那一旦列為警視帳戶的時候這個有的時候長達兩年然後剛剛我講的這個行政程序其實是非常繁瑣的"},{"start":255.009,"end":257.751,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":274.082,"end":277.086,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":290.911,"end":314.997,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我們對於這個打詐當然要嚴以懲處但是只要跟打詐沒有直接關聯的我們會從輕來發落就是對於這一些如果說能夠提出確切證明然後也能夠詳細說明這個資金流跟詐騙集團沒有關係的話那我們會請金管會對這一部分要適度的放寬今天談的成績當然今天來都是行政院的長官"},{"start":317.378,"end":332.312,"text":"所以說我想你們對跨部也瞭解內政部警政的作為瞭解金管會或怎麼樣所以應該要召開一個這個協商的一個平台讓這種案例它是可以被妥善處理的也就是說也許是用衍生管制的方式就是解凍的時候它相對來講它的這個程序也好標準也好是相對寬鬆的"},{"start":335.615,"end":360.353,"text":"速度要加快啦其實一般的人民會願意配合基於打擊詐騙去配合這個警方的調查大家都會配合啦但是如果他可以很明確的證明清白的時候我希望在行政流程的過程之中他可以不要那麼繁瑣嘛他又要跑警察又要跑警察局又要跑銀行中間還要等他的公文往返這個速度來講我覺得常常是很慢的是不是能夠有一個機制你們要經過商量跟討論之後比如說有一個時間啦"},{"start":361.454,"end":363.056,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":378.698,"end":399.174,"text":"一個禮拜兩個禮拜也許最多一個月的時間我的帳戶為了配合調查可能不能用但是我至少很明確的知道什麼時候我可以用嘛至少他在調度他自己的財務或在做他的生意的時候他不會受到太多的衝擊現在就是你沒有明確的標準跟機制的時候那沒完沒了我不知道這個什麼時候才會解凍那很有可能他就會影響到很多事情那我是覺得這樣子牽連太深了"},{"start":401.436,"end":407.279,"text":"所以這部分是什麼時候可以提供一個完整的說明我們會請金管會來研議我覺得這個只要跟詐騙集團沒有關係的不應該受這個這麼嚴格的管控那這個也影響到"},{"start":414.67,"end":418.292,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":445.03,"end":446.592,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"}]}},{"id":"151511","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151511","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336610bb90f2a9995497dee175bc8e0be1adcb4691eb09bf4e2f1d093e7d9452a045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:42:56 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09:55:19","影片長度":"00:12:23","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-10"},"duration":743,"end_time":"2024-04-22T09:55:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T09:42:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":180,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時42分）謝謝召委，是不是請財政部莊部長？"],["主席：請莊部長。"],["莊部長翠雲：委員好。"],["林委員德福：莊部長你好。我想因為最近我看媒體新聞一直在披露，有匿名的網友在爆料公社上貼出質疑準副總統蕭美琴透過外交部，要求關務署免於私酒的查驗，外交部、財政部都協助辦理。外交部有做說明，駐外人員任滿回國以後，攜帶自用物品相關事宜均是依財政部的規定來辦理；財政部也回應，蕭美琴奉調回國申請自用酒品的通關，是經過審核符合規定，申報進口除了1公升的免稅額外，其他均應依法來課稅。","部長，你正式的回應讓媒體知道，因為你也屏除外界對於到底有沒有課稅的疑慮，除了1公升以外有沒有課稅？我相信應該要說清楚講明白。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，謝謝委員，酒輸入進來超過1公升都要課稅，不管是關稅、菸酒稅以及營業稅都要課稅。至於政府派駐到國外的人員，譬如說像蕭大使他奉調回國，他所攜帶的自用物品的話，通關依照相關辦法的規定；不只是蕭大使，所有駐外人員任調回國的時候，都是適用相同的程序跟規定。所以蕭大使這個案子，外交部行文給財政部，告訴它蕭大使調回國內，而他自用的物品進入，其中有酒的部分希望依相關規定辦理，因為他是屬於自用，雖然超過5公升，因為是自用，所以他就可以不需要……"],["林委員德福：超過5公升可以自用，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：不是，他是自用，第一個前提是自用。"],["林委員德福：5公升以內可以自用嘛，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：5公升以內是可以不要申請進口業者許可執照，這是一般來說，但是外交人員的話，因為他是自用攜帶回國，所以就可以不要申請酒類進口業者的許可執照，也可以不要申請酒類衛生的查驗，這個是針對駐外人員回國他攜帶自用的酒品的時候，外交部出文告訴財政部他是自用，這個情況希望依照相關規定的程序辦理。財政部也……"],["林委員德福：那有沒有照相關規定？"],["莊部長翠雲：有，符合相關規定，財政部也回文說自用可以。"],["林委員德福：基隆關有回應，查證以後他並沒有來做一些申報，並沒有！"],["莊部長翠雲：因為就基隆關來說，目前還沒有報運進口這樣的一個通關資料，但是因為外交部是先行文告訴財政部有這個情形。也跟委員報告，所有駐外人員都是循這個程序，光是112年就有55位外交人員回國，也都依程序來辦理，所以並沒有任何的不同。"],["林委員德福：其實我是認為，身為一個政府官員你更應該要依法行政啦！不管怎麼樣，沒有特權的啦，我認為該怎麼做就怎麼做。"],["莊部長翠雲：是，這個部分沒有任何特權，也都是依照相關規定來審核辦理。"],["林委員德福：我也希望如此啦！"],["莊部長翠雲：是的！"],["林委員德福：好，我請黃主委。"],["主席：部長請回，請黃主委。"],["黃主任委員天牧：委員早。"],["林委員德福：主委，我再請教，因為上個禮拜臺股短短4天就跌掉一千多點，你認為這是理性的下跌股價回歸基本面？還是受到國際的一些形勢、外在的因素影響，所以大盤下跌有非理性成分的存在？依您的看法呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：應該國際情勢還是主要因素之一。"],["林委員德福：就是受到國際的影響？"],["黃主任委員天牧：中東的情勢。"],["林委員德福：因為財政部次長阮清華表示，台積電ADR和臺股台積電都跌得很深，而台積電法說會和中東局勢可能都有相關聯，這也牽涉到油價、通膨的問題，連動整個股價有漲、有跌，而且目前整個國安基金都退場了，以金管會說的為準。主委，按照阮次長的說法，多重利空導致整個台股震盪，往後是不是要推出救市的措施，要看金管會的看法，您的看法呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我們的股市已經到兩萬點一個多月了，其實如果只是外在情勢，我想要觀察這一週的情況，我看今天的股市應該是稍微往上，已經有漲。"],["林委員德福：這樣喔？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["林委員德福：請問在520新總統就職前，你認為臺股有必要推出新的這些穩定股市的措施嗎？有沒有必要？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我個人覺得，以今天股票整個的趨勢，我覺得再觀察吧！因為其實現在已經兩萬點以上的行情了，我想我們還不需要提……"],["林委員德福：就是已經飆到很高了？"],["黃主任委員天牧：不是，我覺得還不需要這個時候就談什麼穩定措施。"],["林委員德福：金管會對臺股大盤是不是要推出救市的措施？要不要做一些防範？國安基金到底要不要進場，你的看法呢？"],["黃主任委員天牧：我跟委員報告，其實臺股在過去尤其大概在前年，整個疫情的影響是有一些大坡度的調整，那個時候當然我們有採取一些措施啦！但每次的情況不一樣，我個人覺得我們一定都會有一些固定的維護、穩定市場的措施在，但是什麼時候用？怎麼用？用的強度？可能每次情況都不一樣，但現階段我不覺得要考慮到這些問題。"],["林委員德福：這樣喔？"],["黃主任委員天牧：是。"],["林委員德福：好，主委請回去，我請部長來。"],["黃主任委員天牧：謝謝委員。"],["主席：主委請回，請莊部長。"],["林委員德福：部長，因為上個月初你在財委會備詢的時候表示景氣跟出口的表現息息相關，臺灣的出口已經連續3個月正成長，顯示景氣已經從谷底回升而且平穩、溫和的復甦。現在第1季已經過去了進入第2季，上個禮拜臺股大跌，本席認為台積法說會對臺股後勢的發展恐怕有一些重大的影響。台積電總裁魏哲家對整體半導體市場的看法，是將邁入和緩的復甦，並且下修2024年全球半導體市場（不含記憶體）的展望，也就是景氣預測反應下修全球晶圓代工產業成長的預測，並且不計入記憶體的半導體業的產值，也從成長超過百分之十限縮到只剩百分之十。我請問部長，台積電對今年未來景氣是不是不看好？您的看法呢？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，您剛剛所提的台積電，它是因為智慧手機、個人電腦還有車用市場的復甦不如預期，所以它把今年的全球半導體市場（不含記憶體）這個部分的成長率，由原來預估超過百分之十的部分，降為百分之十。但是，縱使如此，它仍然是兩位數成長的一個情形，也比去年衰減的趨勢來得好，以我們第1季的出口總值來看，是超過一千億美元，這個也是歷年同季的新高，而且年增達到12.9%。所以整體來看，我們的資通還有視聽產品的外銷，仍然維持非常的……"],["林委員德福：部長，你認為台積電他們對景氣的看法是過於保守，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：我不是這樣說，我只是說從全面性的來看，以我們的出口情況，而且AI的需求仍然是非常強勁的，所以這個部分，依我們整體需求來看，我們的出口仍然是呈正向成長的。"],["林委員德福：部長，因為準總統賴清德曾表示半導體是當前許多行業的基礎，占臺灣GDP的13.1%，且產值是全球的第二，未來不僅要維繫優勢，更要強化外溢的效應，讓半導體整個產業成為臺灣用來敲動全球的一個關鍵支點。現在這個支點的領頭羊──台積電，對今年第2季以後的景氣預測並不是非常的看好，我請問部長，按照台積電對今年未來半導體景氣看法保守，甚至於不看好的態樣，你認為準總統賴清德期待外溢效應，會不會有連帶的負面的一些影響？"],["莊部長翠雲：跟委員報告，台積電對全球半導體市場的成長，它是從超過百分之十調整降為百分之十，事實上也還有兩位數字的一個成長。"],["林委員德福：所以你認為應該不會，是不是？"],["莊部長翠雲：對，我們的出口其實還是滿不錯，在AI以及資通視聽產品的外銷依然強勁，而且是我們的優勢。"],["林委員德福：部長，本席一直認為台積電法說會後，對於帶給國內今年景氣復甦的期待，恐怕有可能會蒙上一層的陰影。雖然主計長說根據主計總處的經濟模型，電價調整對經濟成長率不會有太大的影響，預估今年GDP成長率3.43%，今年保3應該沒有問題。但是如果對照臺灣半導體產業協會最新的報告，台積電營收產值相當於臺灣GDP的7.94%，超過整體半導體產業的一半。請問部長，這次台積電法說會後，對於全年GDP的預測，你認為有沒有可能下修到3%以下？"],["莊部長翠雲：我想AI需求暢旺還有民間消費的回溫，國內外的主要經濟機構對我國的經濟成長率的預測數都還是在3%以上，且中經院在4月19號還上修到3.38%。主總在5月份會發布最新預測，我想這個部分應該會很明確的。"],["林委員德福：所以說你還是很樂觀。"],["莊部長翠雲：基本上，我們認為不用那麼悲觀啦！"],["林委員德福：這樣喔！好，謝謝。"],["莊部長翠雲：謝謝。"],["主席：接著請吳秉叡吳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-10","speakers":["羅明才","王世堅","徐富癸","王鴻薇","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","郭國文","李坤城","李彥秀","顏寬恒","賴惠員","黃珊珊","陳玉珍","楊瓊瓔","洪孟楷","黃國昌","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","徐欣瑩"],"page_start":53,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：(一)本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19\n人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等 4案、(二)本院委\n員黃捷等19 人、委員羅明才等16 人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等 2 案；二、審查「保險法」 4 案：\n(一)本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案、(二)本院委員\n蔡易餘等 19 人、委員王鴻薇等 16 人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等 2 案；\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案","agenda_id":"1133201_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.40221875,"end":1.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.1697187500000004,"end":5.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.886593750000001,"end":6.544718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.544718750000001,"end":6.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.809718750000002,"end":13.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.902218750000003,"end":37.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.11784375,"end":40.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.67846875,"end":44.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.42909375,"end":50.149718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.53784375,"end":53.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.87909375,"end":55.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.954718750000005,"end":69.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.82596875,"end":82.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.81534375000001,"end":83.83221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.83221875000001,"end":87.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.34221875,"end":183.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.78159375,"end":139.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.30784375000002,"end":145.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.15534375000001,"end":149.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.81346875,"end":150.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.03284375,"end":150.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.18471875,"end":150.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.74159375000002,"end":179.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.40784375,"end":180.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.26846875,"end":190.81971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.02659375000002,"end":190.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.97159375,"end":212.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.53784375,"end":224.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.13096875000002,"end":228.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.75471875000002,"end":233.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.00346875000002,"end":230.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.69471875000002,"end":235.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.33159375000002,"end":237.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.15409375000002,"end":239.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.74346875,"end":268.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.13659375000003,"end":273.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.67596875000004,"end":277.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.18221875,"end":274.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.03409375,"end":277.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.79346875000005,"end":282.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.34534375000004,"end":284.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.99909375000004,"end":290.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.92221875,"end":293.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":293.31846875,"end":294.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.56721875,"end":295.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.49534375,"end":308.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.82659375000003,"end":310.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.12159375000005,"end":313.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.26471875000004,"end":319.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.82909375,"end":323.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.76096875,"end":324.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.03096875,"end":324.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.19534375,"end":327.81096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.09784375000004,"end":329.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.03846875000005,"end":331.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.31659375000004,"end":340.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.97346875,"end":349.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.88346875,"end":351.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.03096875,"end":372.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.30346875000004,"end":362.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.49721875,"end":364.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.47096875,"end":371.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.29784375,"end":379.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.66784375000003,"end":381.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.03034375000004,"end":382.38471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.97096875,"end":384.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.03846875000005,"end":401.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.85846875000004,"end":406.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.08971875000003,"end":410.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.76846875,"end":411.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","st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身為一個政府官員你更應該要依法行政 不管怎麼樣沒有特權的 我認為說該怎麼做就怎麼做是 這個部分也沒有任何特權 也都是依照相關規定來審核辦理我也希望如此 是的好 那我來請那個主委 那個黃主委請回 請黃主委"},{"start":246.772,"end":272.802,"text":"委員長主委我再請教因為上個禮拜台股短短4天就跌掉1000多點那你認為這是理性的下跌這個股價回饋基本面還是受到因為國際的一些形勢外在的因素影響所以說大盤下跌有非理性成分的存在應您的看法呢應該還是國際情勢是主要因素之一是"},{"start":274.393,"end":281.484,"text":"這是受到國際影響?因為財政部次長阮清華表示台積電、ADR"},{"start":283.37,"end":284.39,"text":"委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":313.382,"end":324.359,"text":"多重利空導致整個台股震盪往後是不是要推出救市的措施要看今晚會的看法。您的看法呢?"},{"start":325.236,"end":330.477,"text":"五二零新就任總統就職前,你認為台股有必要推出新的這些穩定股市的措施嗎?有沒有必要?"},{"start":350.947,"end":367.819,"text":"我個人覺得以今天的股票的整個的趨勢我覺得再觀察吧因為其實現在已經兩萬點以上的行情了我想我們還不需要就是已經飆到很高了不是我覺得還不需要"},{"start":369.18,"end":381.428,"text":"這個時候就談什麼穩定措施那今晚會對台股大盤是不是要推出救市的措施要不要做一些防範是不是國安基金絕對到底要不要進場到時候"},{"start":384.848,"end":406.493,"text":"您的看法呢?我跟委員報告其實臺股在過去尤其大概在前年吧其實整個疫情的影響是有一些大波動的調整那那個時候當然我們有採取一些措施啦但每次的情況不一樣我個人覺得我們一定都會有一些固定的維護穩定市場的措施在"},{"start":407.133,"end":415.982,"text":"但是什麼時候用、怎麼用、用的強度可能每次情況都不一樣,但現階段我不覺得要考慮到這些問題。"},{"start":427.93,"end":452.935,"text":"副長因為上個月初你在財委會啊被刑的時候表示景氣啊跟出口的表現息息相關那台灣的出口已經連續三個月是正成長顯示景氣已經從谷底回升而且平穩而且溫和的復甦那現在第一季已經過去了現在進入第二季上個禮拜台股大跌那本席認為說台積電、華碩會對"},{"start":455.776,"end":484.095,"text":"這個台股後市的發展恐怕有一些有一些重大的影響那台積電總裁魏哲嘉對整體半導體市場的看法將邁入和緩的護書並且下修2024年這個全年全球半導體市場不含記憶體的展望也就是說景氣預測反應下修全球晶圓代工"},{"start":485.162,"end":490.924,"text":"產業的成長預測並且不記錄記憶體的半導體業的這些產值也從成長超過10%限縮到只剩10%那我請問部長,台積電對今年未來景氣是不是不看好?您的看法勒?"},{"start":510.471,"end":520.094,"text":"各位委員報告您剛剛所提到就是台積電它是因為智慧手機個人電腦還有車用市場的復甦不如預期所以它把今年的全球半導體市場就是不含記憶體這個部分的成長率由原來預估超過10%的部分降為10%但是縱使如此它仍然是兩位數的一個成長的一個情形那也比去年的一個衰減的趨勢來得好那以我們第一季的一個出口總值來看的話"},{"start":540.18,"end":545.442,"text":"是超過了1000億美元那這個也是歷年統計的新高而且年增達到12.9%所以整體來看我們的資通還有視聽產品的外銷仍然維持非常的一個強制所以說部長你認為台積電他們的看法對景氣的看法是過於保守是不是我不是這樣說我只是說從全面性的來看以我們的出口情況而且AI的一個需求仍然是非常強勁的"},{"start":569.011,"end":582.016,"text":"所以這個部分我們整體的來看我們的出口仍然是正向成長的部長因為準總統賴清德曾表示半導體是當前許多行業的基礎占台灣GDP的13.1%"},{"start":584.477,"end":604.115,"text":"那產值是全球的第二那未來不僅要維繫優勢更要強化外溢的效應讓半導體整個產業成為台灣用來敲動全球的一個關鍵支點那現在這個支點的領頭羊台積電對今年第二季以後的景氣預測"},{"start":606.477,"end":615.664,"text":"並不是說非常的看好那我請問部長按照台積電對今年未來半導體景氣看好的保守甚至於不看好的太陽啊"},{"start":616.601,"end":636.371,"text":"你認為這個準總統賴清德期待外遇效應會不會有連帶的負面的一些影響?會不會?台積電它對全球半導體市場的成長它是從超過10%而調整降為10%那事實上也是還有兩位數字的一個成長"},{"start":637.071,"end":660.767,"text":"所以說你認為應該不會是嗎?我們的出口其實還是蠻不錯而且我們在AI以及資通視聽產品的外銷依然強勁而且是我們的優勢是這樣喔?部長本席一直認為說台積電法收賄後帶給國內今年景氣互輸的期待恐怕有可能會門上一層的陰影雖然主計長說根據主計總署的經濟模型"},{"start":664.409,"end":665.27,"text":"議員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議"},{"start":684.187,"end":689.533,"text":"臺積電營收產值相當於臺灣的GDP的7.94%,超過整體半導體的產業一半。請問部長這次臺積電華碩會後對於前年GDP的預測你認為有沒有可能下修到3%以下?"},{"start":703.49,"end":732.824,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":738.652,"end":739.094,"text":"接著請吳秉瑞吳委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"151510","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151510","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3362fb9dd2710c65e3af397fd65b575a832dcb4691eb09bf4e235afc5b0a4ba0bcf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"09:44:03 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我的意思是這個改善建立提出來之後不是就沒事了你要追蹤進度到完成這沒問題啊我們因為我們常常行政院定期會開會我們會跟他報那我的意思就是說以前面已經發生過事故的原因你們發現之後改善建立之後進度完成之後相同的原因就不應該再發生再一次的悲劇嘛對不對應該是這樣子那你們要把這個職責擔下來"},{"start":544.294,"end":569.395,"text":"因為他在我們的改善信息之後,他的記錄列出來說我會...我知道你的意思,你都不跟你說一句話說OK就好了。習委員講的要你建議他們改進了,你們要去追蹤有沒有做,他主要是這樣。對啊,你就追蹤他有做你就完成,他沒做你要繼續追蹤嘛。你繼續追蹤他都不做,你要讓我們知道嘛,我們繼續追蹤該單位嘛。繼續追蹤到他改善為止,對。"},{"start":572.077,"end":573.058,"text":"謝謝許智傑委員"}]}},{"id":"151509","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151509","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336242ca79134f5eddef397fd65b575a832dcb4691eb09bf4e2e90c469a3fa3b2195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"09:36:23 - 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09:36:06","影片長度":"00:06:52","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於國家運輸安全調查委員會預算凍結案計6案。）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":8,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-8"},"duration":412,"end_time":"2024-04-22T09:36:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T09:29:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":264,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（9時29分）謝謝陳雪生召委。請林主委。"],["主席：林主委請。"],["林主任委員信得：委員好。"],["李委員昆澤：林主委好。我記得你以前擔任過民航局副局長嘛？"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["李委員昆澤：林主委，剛才召委提到這些重大意外事故相關的調查定義跟範圍，其實這個很明確，因為當初的運輸事故調查法就是我定的，這個運輸調查法的定義跟範疇是由運安會相關的子法另外制定範圍，當然它的定義非常簡單，它的範圍就是以死亡3人以上，或者是死亡跟受傷有10人以上，還是受傷有15人以上，都要列為重大的交通事故要去調查。另外，載運相關的危險物質，有洩漏或者是爆炸的狀況時，也必須要調查。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["李委員昆澤：此外，意外事故對於人民生命財產有重大的威脅、衝擊時，也必須要去做調查。當然，當初這些子法是由運安會制定，其實以人數作為一個交通重大意外事故的調查範圍，我覺得應該要再做調整，也就是說，我們應該針對系統性或者是風險性來做檢討，以作為所謂相關重大運輸事故的範圍，我認為這個可以讓運安會來作為以後思考的重點。","我們今天討論重點當然是在於運安會有三大職責，第一個職責就是要強化自己的事故調查量能；第二個是對於我們的交通重大運輸事故要提出改善的建議；第三個要去監督落實這些改善建議，使其能夠真正完整的改善。現在我們看到運安會成立於2019年8月1日，到今年4月，運安會發布了改善建議總共607項，航空類33項、水路類235項、鐵道類202項、公路類137項，但我其實認為這個改善建議有一個問題，也就是這個改善建議的分類類型主要是以受建議的單位以及處理的狀態來作為分類類型的基本原則，但是我以2022年0528，就是第177車次竹南站的重大鐵道事故為例，如果是以受建議的單位跟處理的狀態作為改善建議的分類類型來看，其實是不足的。我們來看，如果依照改善建議類型還可以再細分為制度類、人員類、機械類，這都有它必須要改善的項目，像是制度類，關於檢查項目、規章修改、負責人制度等等，或者說人員類中人員培訓的部分，還是機械類的閘瓦積鐵、踏面受損、告警系統等等，都有出現相關的問題。關於這些，運安會必須來做一個基本的調整，主委，讓你說明一下。"],["林主任委員信得：委員指教的確實沒有錯，我們原來是比較被動式，只針對被改善建議的單位來做，事實上在去年委員建議之後，我們已經準備要做一個動態統計儀表板，我們已經準備在設計了。"],["李委員昆澤：好。"],["林主任委員信得：因為這個設計坦白講需要一點經費，所以我們也逐步在往這個方向推。"],["李委員昆澤：因為對於相關分類的類型、改善建議是交通意外事故改善、交通安全改善落實的重要基礎資料。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["李委員昆澤：我認為運安會對於這些改善建議要進一步的分類，也就是針對類型要提出統計，才能有效統計出相同或者是類似的問題，進一步提出系統性的改善建議。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["李委員昆澤：當然內容也應該要及時公開，我認為這個改善建議要對社會大眾及時公開顯示，並且要顯示改善的狀況，希望能夠資訊透明，才能有效改善交通的安全。我認為多項改善建議沒有改善，這應該要跟各個單位加強溝通，看看我們2023年運輸安全改善建議的評估報告，改善建議結案率其實都不是很好，還是有三至四成的改善建議沒有完成，例如水路類或者是鐵道類，都有三至四成改善沒有完成，運安會如果去督促相關單位來進行改善，這也是一個重要的工作。來，主委，讓你說明一下，怎麼去加強督促改善？"],["林主任委員信得：委員的指教真的是對的，我們跟各個單位在近期有召開所謂的安全工作協調會、安全資訊分享研討會，在這個會裡面把我們的統計數跟各單位講：你這個哪裡有問題、你需要我協助，或者是你哪裡做不到，我們幫你去協調交通部的相關單位。坦白講，這樣做在作法上是有進步的，譬如說過去4年的水路事故調查案件，從109年到112年，從56件、60件，到112（去）年已經減少到23件，它成效已經出來，不過我們還要繼續努力，確實是這樣子。"],["李委員昆澤：好，主委，你的重要責任就是要強化事故調查的量能，而且要提出改善建議。"],["林主任委員信得：是。"],["李委員昆澤：更重要的是，要去督促這些改善和落實，這都是重要責任，好不好？"],["林主任委員信得：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李昆澤召委。","下一位請林國成委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":176,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-8","speakers":["陳雪生","李昆澤","林國成","許智傑","徐富癸","何欣純","魯明哲","陳素月","林俊憲","林沛祥","廖先翔","蔡其昌","邱若華","游顥","林倩綺","洪孟楷","黃國昌","楊瓊瓔","羅智強","張啓楷","黃健豪","黃仁"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第8次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請國家運輸安全調查委員會主任委員林信得列席報告業務概況，並備質詢；二、審查 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那我們今天討論的重點當然是在於運安會有三大職者第一個職者就是要強化自己的事故調查的一個量能"},{"start":125.011,"end":143.61,"text":"第二是對於我們的交通重大運輸事故要提出改善的建議第三要去監督落實這些改善建議能夠真正完整的一個改善那現在我們看到運安會成立"},{"start":145.332,"end":152.298,"text":"2019年8月1日到今年的4月運安會總共發布了改善建議總共是607項航空類33項水路類235項鐵道類202項公路類137項但是我們的這個"},{"start":163.388,"end":191.26,"text":"改善建議其實我認為有一個問題就是說我們改善建議的這樣的一個分類的類型主要是以受建議的單位以及處理的狀態來作為一個分類類型的一個基本的原則但是我認為我們以2022年0528就是第177車次竹南站的重大鐵道事故為例"},{"start":192.841,"end":192.901,"text":"﹚李昆澤"},{"start":207.648,"end":234.589,"text":"人員類、機械類都有他的必須要改善的一個項目像制度類我們的檢查項目規章的一個修改負責人的制度等等或者是說人員類的人員培訓的部分或是機械類的閘瓦機鐵他那邊受損告警系統等等都有出現相關的問題那這些呢運安會啊必須來做一個基本的調整來主委讓你說明一下"},{"start":236.473,"end":262.311,"text":"委員執教確實沒有錯。我們原來是比較被動是針對被改善建議的一個針對那個單位來做的。那事實上我們在去年原建議之後我們已經在準備要做一個所謂的動態統計儀表班。我們已經準備在設計了。因為這個設計坦白講有一點需要經費。所以我們也在逐步在往這個方向推。"},{"start":262.731,"end":286.124,"text":"因為我們對於相關分類的類型這個改善建議是交通意外事故改善交通安全一個改善落實的重要的基礎資料我認為說我們應安會對於這些分類的對於改善建議要進一步的分類就是說針對類型我們要提出統計"},{"start":287.225,"end":315.987,"text":"那才能有效去統計出相同或是類似的問題那進一步提出系統性的一個改善的建議當然內容也應該要即時公開我認為我們這個改善建議要對社會大眾來即時的公開來顯示並且而且要顯示改善的狀況希望能夠資訊透明才能夠有效的改善這些交通的安全那"},{"start":317.506,"end":334.193,"text":"我認為我們的這個多項改善建議沒有去改善這個應該要跟各個單位去加強溝通我看看我們2023年運輸安全改善建議的評估報告那改善建議的結案率"},{"start":335.953,"end":336.193,"text":"﹚李昆澤"},{"start":352.043,"end":378.602,"text":"相關單位來進行改善也是一個重要的工作來主委讓你說明一下怎麼去加強多數改善這個委員的指教真的是對的我們有跟各個單位有近期在召開所謂安全工作的協調會那安全資訊的分享我們在這個會裡面會把我們統計室跟各單位講說你這個哪裡有問題你需要我協助或者是你哪裡做不到我們幫你去協調交通部的相關單位那"},{"start":380.066,"end":405.974,"text":"坦白講,這樣做的做法上是有進步的,譬如說過去4年,過去4年的水路事態調查案件,從109年到112年,從56件、60件、30件到110件,去年已經減少到23件,它成效已經出來,不過我們還要繼續努力,確實是這樣子。主委,你的重要責任就是要強化事故調查的量能,而且還要提出改善建議,更重要,要去督促啊,"},{"start":406.736,"end":409.39,"text":"這些改善的落實都是重要責任好不好?謝謝,謝謝委員,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151507","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151507","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c33643457db4b9bbd826cff82116bdf94ca8dcb4691eb09bf4e22b2717c1df6d4f975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"09:43:21 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09:53:57","影片長度":"00:10:36","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":636,"end_time":"2024-04-22T09:53:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T09:43:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":348,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（9時43分）主席好。有請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：廖委員早。"],["廖委員偉翔：薛部長早。部長，今天專報的主題是「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」，但是看到貴部的書面報告跟簡報的資料，你們在源頭管理的部分，只有提到檢測噪音認證合格的有225組排氣管，請問這裡面有汽車用的排氣管嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：這裡面應該是以機車為主。"],["廖委員偉翔：全部都是機車嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以只有針對改裝機車的排氣管進行認證。請問部長，汽車其實也有改裝排氣管，還有排氣閥門也會造成噪音污染，為何這份報告裡面沒有？"],["薛部長富盛：我想這是未來下一階段可以去思考，剛剛陳委員也特別提到，我們現在重點是擺在機車，下一階段汽車也應該可以納管，但是針對噪音超標的處罰是不分汽機車，只要噪音超過標準，我們就會裁罰。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以你們未來也會趕快加速對汽車的部分。"],["薛部長富盛：對，我覺得應該要這樣做。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，這個部分提醒你們一下，應該也要來做。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝。"],["廖委員偉翔：再來，我們可以看到，環保署在108年3月的時候，有一個標案叫做「機動車輛噪音聯合稽查、排氣管認證及管制計畫」，這三百多萬的標案是由凱鉅科技實業股份有限公司標得。在109年7月份也有另外一個標，同樣的標案是八百多萬的，這個部分改為歐怡科技股份有限公司標得。我去查了一下歷年的得標紀錄，這兩家公司以前也是環保署跟環境部的常客，我相信環境部對這兩家公司應該也不陌生吧？"],["薛部長富盛：我們同仁或許熟悉，我個人是不太清楚，因為我沒有介入到相關的細節。"],["廖委員偉翔：在112年的時候，歐怡公司也得標了112年行政院環境保護署大氣環境司強化噪音管制措施及營建工程噪音改善計畫，這個算是一個顧問案，它的內容主要是掌握縣市環保局推動聲音照相科技執法情形，以及提供技術支援彙整更新各縣市車輛噪音聲音照相科技執法設置的形式、地點、套數跟成果，瞭解環保署在前瞻計畫移撥各縣市移動式聲音照相設備的營運情形，並撰擬常見的問題與回復內容供環保局參考。還有，在營建工程噪音微型感測器的評估應用及強化源頭管制的策略。另外，蒐集國上至少三個先進國家運用噪音微型感測器於營建工程及室外環境相關噪音監測的案例。還有，針對民眾陳情營建工程的噪音案件進行分析。簡單來講，它就是一個類似顧問案，顧問案完之後，它是不是有建議要採購，所以在10月的時候，這個歐怡公司又得標了一個112年行政院環境保護署大氣環境司移動式聲音照相科技執法辨識系統採購案，是嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：廖委員可不可以請我們大氣司張司長來回答，因為這個內容我不是那麼清楚。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，可以。"],["張司長順欽：跟委員報告，這兩個計畫性質是不一樣的，聲音照相本身來講，我們從110年就開始採購，所以跟112年4月份的這個計畫是沒有什麼關聯，110年就採購第一批22套。112年10月這個是第二批採購21套。"],["廖委員偉翔：對，但是很神奇的事情就是歐怡公司在得標顧問案之後，在10月份又得標了這個採購案，不過沒關係。歐怡科技決標了，金額大概是一千八百多萬，可是你們這裡面有提到「該採購案設備經標檢局檢定合格及通過儀器比測經本署完成測試驗收合格，方撥付該套次尾款」，也就是必須要有人來檢測它對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，你知道檢測的公司是哪一家嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我不清楚。"],["廖委員偉翔：OK，這個檢測的公司就是所謂的凱鉅科技公司，就是這家凱鉅科技公司檢測的，我們去查了一下，歐怡公司跟凱鉅根本就是同一家公司，第一個證據，他們共用網站，而且公司設立的地址也相同；第二個證據，它的董監事都是余姓家族相互擔任董監事。所以你這樣看起來，它是不是同一家公司、背後算不算同一批人？"],["薛部長富盛：應該是類似同一個集團裡面的公司，假如甚至連網頁也都一起，當然就是同一批，但是這個跟前面的購案，我不曉得有沒有直接……"],["廖委員偉翔：就是它採購了這個器材的標案，依據政府採購法施行細則第三十八條的第一項第四款和第五款，簡單來講，政府辦理採購，有利益衝突的時候，要在採購文件中明文禁止得標廠商自己協助自己的行為。請問這個標案的合約裡面有沒有寫？有沒有明確載明？"],["薛部長富盛：這個產品假如環境部去採購，將來驗收是環境部來驗收，而不是……"],["廖委員偉翔：但是剛剛檢測公司就是另外一家，如果你們驗收了，那不就是同一家公司自己……"],["薛部長富盛：我不曉得這個案子現在是不是已經結案還是怎樣，我請我們司長跟委員報告。"],["張司長順欽：跟委員報告，目前驗收部分還在進行當中，所以還沒有驗收。"],["廖委員偉翔：還沒有驗收，所以……"],["張司長順欽：所以還沒有付那個……"],["廖委員偉翔：你們知道這是同一家公司自己給自己檢測嗎？自己的產品給自己的另外一家公司檢測嗎？"],["張司長順欽：之前不清楚之間的關聯。"],["廖委員偉翔：所以是我現在提出來，你們才清楚？"],["薛部長富盛：針對這個問題，我們再來進一步釐清，但是據我們所瞭解，很多儀器製造商本身在公司裡面就會有驗證跟分析的部門，如果是那個部門出具證明說這個產品是合格的，接下來就要看我們……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，我告訴你，其實明明有其他實驗室……"],["薛部長富盛：請購單位要不要接受他的認證。"],["廖委員偉翔：簡單來講，這件事情的邏輯就是歐怡公司跟凱鉅公司是同一間公司，歐怡提供的儀器比測報告是由凱鉅公司檢測的，這個情況的邏輯不就像是少林足球裡面講到的：「裁判、球證、旁證全是我的人，你怎麼和我鬥？」這就是球員兼裁判啊！根據貴部環境研究院的公開資料，儀器比測至少有6家公司可以做，為何這個案子就是由凱鉅來做？這不就是接案、驗收一條龍嘛！環境部政風處還在嗎？還有功能嗎？還是裝睡的人叫不醒？還是說他根本就不知道、被蒙在鼓裡，然後在眼皮底下就讓他過去？如果今天我沒有提出來，你們是不是完全不知道這件事，然後也沒有去做這個檢查？"],["薛部長富盛：廖委員，這樣子啦！假如有任何不法，非常歡迎去舉發，這個案子剛剛張司長也提到還沒有結案，我不曉得這裡面的一些揣測或者關係怎麼樣，反正就是我們絕不護短……"],["廖委員偉翔：絕不護短？"],["薛部長富盛：假如有違法的地方，歡迎去舉發，這個是我身為部長的態度，絕不護短，非常清楚。"],["廖委員偉翔：很好，那我希望貴部儘快調查，如果有任何不法，也請檢調來儘速調查……"],["薛部長富盛：好，我會來瞭解情況。"],["廖委員偉翔：因為這幾年從環保署到環境部的預算，其實最大的問題就在於委外辦理的經費是各部會第一名，連立法院預算中心都點名過委外經費過高的問題，這代表什麼意思？基本上就是環境部把自己的核心業務委辦給外部廠商，所以環境部就只能任由廠商予取予求，像剛剛這個案子就非常像，廠商叫你們開什麼標，請問環境部有能力說不嗎？現在連驗收的部分，得標廠商也找了自己的檢測公司，你們可能也是被蒙在鼓裡，直到現在才知道，他們在你們眼皮底下大喇喇的這樣圖利，你們都不曉得，是不是這樣的案子太多，而這只是其中一件？"],["薛部長富盛：事實上廖委員也可能有一些地方言過其實，因為這個問題去年預算審查的時候，我也認同委員的意見，認為環境部委外比例偏高，回去後我自己也初步瞭解……"],["廖委員偉翔：是，所以你也認同嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：有一些委外事實上是因為它的性質，譬如包括跟地方……"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，不用扯這麼多，我只是想說針對這樣的事件發生，請貴部回去可以好好把事情調查清楚……"],["薛部長富盛：好，我們來瞭解一下，但是也請委員……"],["廖委員偉翔：到時候如果有問題的話，是不是把相關資料……"],["薛部長富盛：假如有不法的地方，歡迎民眾舉發，我個人絕對……"],["廖委員偉翔：沒有問題，如果有需要，我們會把這些資料提供給檢調，但是我現在在質詢臺上告訴你這件事情，就是希望你們也好好去調查這件事。"],["薛部長富盛：好，瞭解，可以。是，沒問題。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝廖委員，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝廖偉翔委員。","接下來請王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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廖委員早學部長早部長今天的這個專報的主題是噪音管制跟加速推動排氣管噪音認證但是看到貴部的書面報告跟簡報的資料你們在源頭管理的部分只有提到這個檢測噪音認證合格的有225組排氣管請問這裡面有汽車用的排氣管嗎這裡面應該是以汽車為主"},{"start":55.805,"end":68.285,"text":"所以只有針對改裝機車的排氣管進行認證請問部長但是汽車其實也有改裝排氣管還有排氣閥門也會造成噪音污染為何這份報告裡面沒有"},{"start":69.658,"end":98.037,"text":"這個未來我想是下一階段可以去思考剛剛陳委員也特別提到就是說我們現在重點是擺在機車那下一階段應該汽車也應該可以納管但是針對噪音超標的一個處罰的是不分汽機車不要噪音超過那個標準所以你們未來也會趕快加速把這個對汽車的部分好那這個部分提醒你們一下應該也要來做"},{"start":98.817,"end":101.962,"text":"好 謝謝再來部長我們可以看到喔"},{"start":102.731,"end":130.163,"text":"在我們環保署108年的時候3月有一個標案叫做機動車輛噪音聯合機查和排氣管認證及管制計畫這300多萬的標案是由一位凱聚科技實業股份有限公司標德那在109年的時候7月份也有另外一個標同樣的標案他是800多萬的那這個部分呢改叫做歐宜科技股份有限公司標德"},{"start":131.65,"end":150.151,"text":"好那我想這個環境部喔因為去查了一下歷年的這個得標記錄這兩家公司以前也是環保署跟我們環境部的常客我相信環境部對這兩家公司應該也不陌生吧呃我們同年或許熟悉我個人是不太清楚是因為我沒有介入到這個好那下一頁"},{"start":151.892,"end":168.644,"text":"在這個112年的時候這個OE公司也得標了一個就是112年行政院保護署這個環境保護署的大氣環境司的強化噪音管制措施及營建工程噪音改善計劃"},{"start":169.985,"end":189.591,"text":"這個算是一個顧問案,那它的內容主要是講說掌握縣市的環保局推動聲音照相科技執法情形以及提供技術資源,彙整更新各縣市的車輛噪音聲音還有照相科技執法的設置的形式、地點、套數跟成果"},{"start":190.211,"end":207.418,"text":"那瞭解本署在這個前瞻計畫移波各縣市移動式的聲音照相設備的營運情形並篆擬常見的問題與回覆內容供環保局參考還有在營建工程的這個噪音微型感測器的評估應用"},{"start":208.398,"end":230.914,"text":"強化源頭管制的策略還有收集國際上至少三個先進國家運用這個噪音微型感測器跟營建工程還有相關室外環境相關的這個噪音監測的案例所以針對民眾陳情這個營建工程的噪音案件進行分析好簡單來講它就是一個類似顧問案那顧問案完之後"},{"start":231.795,"end":243.944,"text":"他是不是有建議要採購所以你們在10月的時候這個OE公司又得標了一個112年行政院這個環境保護署的大氣環境司移動式聲音照相科技執法辨識系統採購案是嗎?"},{"start":247.488,"end":269.777,"text":"呃,廖委員可不可以請我們大氣師張市長來回答因為我這個內容我不是那麼清楚齁跟委員報告這兩個計畫是性質是不一樣的那聲音照相本身來講我們從110年就開始採購所以跟這個112年這個4月份的這個計畫來講是沒有什麼關聯110年就採購第一批22套那這個112年10月這個是採入第二批採過那個21套"},{"start":276.5,"end":304.59,"text":"對,但是很神奇的事情就是這個OE公司在得標的顧問案之後在10月份就是又得標了這個採購案好,不過沒關係下一頁喔OE科技決標了這個金額大概是1800多萬的金額喔可是你們這裡面有說該採購案設備經標檢局檢定合格跟通過儀器的筆測經本署完成測試驗收合格方撥付該套次的尾款"},{"start":305.33,"end":325.891,"text":"也就是說他必須要有人來檢測他對不對那你知道部長你知道他檢測的檢測的公司是哪一家嗎不清楚OK這個他檢測的公司呢就是所謂的凱聚科技科技公司喔就是這家凱聚科技公司檢測的那下一頁"},{"start":328.874,"end":353.017,"text":"基本上我們去查了一下這個歐宜公司跟這個凱聚他根本就是同一家公司第一個證據他們共用網站而且他公司設立的地址也相同第二個證據他的董監事都是這個魚性家族相互擔任董監事所以你這樣看起來他是不是同一家公司背後算不算同一批人"},{"start":354.532,"end":369.244,"text":"應該是同一個類似集團裡面的公司假如說甚至連網頁也都一起那當然就是同一期但是這個跟前面的構案我不曉得有沒有他就是這個標案就是他採購了這個器材的標案是"},{"start":370.427,"end":390.487,"text":"所以政府採購法裡面有施行細則的第38條的第一項第4和第5款政府辦理這個採購的時候簡單來講就是有利益衝突的時候要在我們的採購文件中明文禁止得標廠商自己協助自己的行為請問我們這個標案裡面的合約裡面有沒有寫有沒有明確的載明"},{"start":392.943,"end":408.675,"text":"這個產品假如環境部去採購將來驗收是環境部來驗收啦但是剛剛檢測就是檢測公司就是另外一家那你們驗收了這不就是同一家公司自己我不曉得這個案子現在是不是已經就結案了還是怎麼樣"},{"start":409.755,"end":428.372,"text":"我請我們市長來講一下跟委員報告一下目前這個驗收部分還在進行當中所以還沒有驗收還沒有驗收所以那你們知道它是同一家公司自己給自己檢測嗎自己的產品給自己的另外一家公司檢測嗎之前不清楚之間的這個關聯所以我現在提出來你們才清楚"},{"start":430.859,"end":451.72,"text":"事實上這種問題我們再來進一步釐清但是我們所了解很多在儀器的製造商他本身那家公司裡面就會有驗證跟分析的這個部門那那個部門假如去這個出去證明說這個產品是合格接下來就看"},{"start":452.281,"end":476.192,"text":"好部長那我告訴你因為其實他明明有其他的實驗室喔要不要接受他的認證好我簡單來講這件事情的邏輯就是OE公司他跟這個凱聚公司就是同一間公司那OE提供的儀器比測報告是由凱聚公司檢測的那這個情況邏輯不就像是少林足球裡面講到的裁判、球證、旁證都是他的人你怎麼跟我鬥這就是球員兼裁判啊"},{"start":476.972,"end":497.798,"text":"那根據貴部環境這個研究院的公開資料一氣的比測至少有6家可以做為何這家這個案子就是由愷俱來做這不就是接案驗收一條龍嗎?環境部的陣風處還在嗎?還有功能嗎?還是說裝睡的人叫不醒還是說他根本就不知道被蒙在鼓底或是在眼皮底下讓他過去"},{"start":499.258,"end":522.999,"text":"因為如果今天沒有提出來是不是你們完全不知道這件事然後也沒有去做這個檢查是當廖委員這樣子假如有任何不法非常歡迎去舉發那這個案子因為剛剛我們張市長講還沒有結案那我不曉得這裡面的一些揣測或者關係什麼樣反正就是我們絕不負短假如回返"},{"start":524.625,"end":552.017,"text":"在違法的地方歡迎去舉花這個是我身為部長的一個態度絕不護短非常清楚很好那我希望貴部盡快的調查如果有任何不法請現在也請檢調來進行調查然後因為這幾年環保署從環保署到環境部的預算其實最大的問題就是委外辦理的經費也是各部會的第一名連立法院的預算中心也都點名過委外經費過高的問題"},{"start":553.942,"end":579.582,"text":"所以這代表什麼意思啊基本上就是環境部把自己的核心業務也都委辦給外部的廠商所以環境部就只能夠任由廠商予取予求像剛剛這個樣子也非常像喔廠商叫你們開什麼標請問環境部有能力說不嗎現在連驗收的部分則得標廠商也自己找了自己檢測公司你們可能也都被蒙在鼓底直到現在才知道在你們眼皮底下喔大剌剌的這樣圖利"},{"start":581.443,"end":597.729,"text":"這樣子你們都不曉得,是不是這樣案子太多,還是就只是其中一件?事實上,廖委員可能也有一些地方大概言過其實,因為這個問題去年在預算審查的時候,我也認同委員說環境部的委外比例偏高,那我回去也初步的了解一下,有一些"},{"start":599.349,"end":619.508,"text":"委員會事實上他是因為他那個性質比如說包括跟地方部長沒有我們不用扯這麼多我只想說我們針對這件事情也可以看到這樣的事件的發生那我也請貴部可以回去好好把這件事情調查清楚我們來瞭解一下啦也請這個是不是把相關資料到時候如果有問題的話請委員找有不法的地方歡迎這個民眾去舉發我個人"},{"start":623.291,"end":633.836,"text":"沒有問題我們會把這個資料如果有需要我們會提供跟檢調但是我現在在質詢台上告訴你這件事情就是希望你們也好好的去調查這件事了解可以是好謝謝好謝謝廖委員好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151506","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151506","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336282a3dc511c1a8c2c59641e9d13ec658dcb4691eb09bf4e24040d5881116b2055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:47:15 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對不對我們也不用等議事規則通過修正啊今天如果說主席在審影的話我們今天就來執行這件事情我提名審報會委員當代理主席已經是這樣 謝謝剛剛羅委員的行動發表"}]}},{"id":"151504","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151504","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3364a0da7626ac8ae99c59641e9d13ec658dcb4691eb09bf4e2f179d27bb990d5d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"09:36:33 - 09:42:09","影片長度":"00:05:36","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-15"},"duration":336,"end_time":"2024-04-22T09:42:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T09:36:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.35159375000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.22471875,"end":2.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.283468750000001,"end":22.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.11596875,"end":26.355968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.71034375,"end":41.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.21846875,"end":58.24971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.283468750000004,"end":77.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.94284375000001,"end":87.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.17346875000001,"end":89.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.58659375,"end":104.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.06096875,"end":110.86596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.20346875000001,"end":143.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.54846875,"end":190.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.62971875000002,"end":235.06596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.48784375000002,"end":258.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.88909375000003,"end":293.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.43221875,"end":301.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.73909375,"end":330.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.83159375,"end":334.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.97846875000005,"end":336.29909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.793,"end":22.368,"text":"謝謝主席今天是一週的開始希望大家都能夠微笑以對我們正能量的好好來開會真的不希望也不樂見我們國會改革在這一週的新開始又要破功又要被沒收了"},{"start":23.269,"end":39.435,"text":"司司有兩種要效大不同,開會也有兩種,想討論跟不想討論的兩種開會。立委也有兩種,一種是要沒收自己的審查權,還是要照期間好好開會。"},{"start":42.336,"end":56.866,"text":"所以要效大不同、效用大不同。立法院要扮演什麼樣子的角色在國人社會面前。我們要再一次說今天的法案沒有爭議性。"},{"start":58.487,"end":71.996,"text":"我真的非常的訝異其實今天我一早來上班來到國會我的心情是非常的雀躍的因為我想說今天司法法制委員會應當可以好好針對高度有社會共識的議案沒有政治爭議的議案好好來審查可是很遺憾一早恐怕我不曉得還要再在這裡要進行這樣子無謂的拖延審查到什麼時候"},{"start":87.327,"end":87.547,"text":"案。我們來看看內容。"},{"start":105.131,"end":123.644,"text":"我們希望立法院要有資通安全處要設資安長這是立法院自己修的法2018年立法院修了資通安全管理法第11條立法院要求臺灣所有的公務機關都要有資通安全長來負責推動監督機關內的資通安全相關事務"},{"start":129.548,"end":136.995,"text":"我們立法要求別人,我們怎麼可以不檢討自己有沒有落實呢?設定資通安全長來防範所有的資訊作戰,國民黨反對嗎?民眾黨反對嗎?"},{"start":144.622,"end":157.154,"text":"我們立了《性平三法》的修法就在去年我們要讓所有的MeToo都要止步我們是立法委員我們要求各級機關要做到MeToo防止性騷的行為我們要求各級學校都要落實性平工作平等跟教育的內涵為什麼在立法院我們刮別人鬍子不刮自己呢?"},{"start":170.146,"end":190.516,"text":"所以我們終於有機會可以利用國會改革法案討論的時候來研修立法委員行為法。我想問國民黨民眾黨的委員你們要反對MeToo的法案嗎?你們要反對國會反性騷、反歧視、讓性別平等的法案嗎?我希望不是。"},{"start":191.696,"end":194.339,"text":"因此,我們提出了議事規則的修正,就是要強化回應社會的抨擊,立法院不能夠再發生由委員利用國家機密審查的秘密會議去吸出秘密的訊息或是對外不當的洩漏國家安全。"},{"start":211.778,"end":218.061,"text":"事由．一）民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案．一）民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案．一）民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案．一）民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案．一）民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正草案．一）民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正草案．一）民進黨"},{"start":235.649,"end":257.201,"text":"所以今天的法案都是正面的,都是強化國會改革,沒有政治爭議的。立法院是大家的,立法院不是藍的、不是綠的、不是白的。這樣非常正面回復社會期待的法案為什麼不能審呢?"},{"start":260.086,"end":262.587,"text":"國民黨民眾黨為什麼不審查呢?我希望副總召您週末要帶團可能週四就出發去中國了黃國昌總召也說害怕民進黨發動偷襲所以很好啊我們就趁副總召也在場黃總召也在場柯總召也在場我們一起不要偷襲我們就好好的審查國會改革法案啊"},{"start":287.015,"end":299.129,"text":"這個禮拜只有134,三天一程,禮拜四副總召可能就帶團出去了。林思平書記長可能也要去,我們不想要讓重要的委員不在場討論啊,把握機會。"},{"start":301.872,"end":315.601,"text":"就法案．論法案．國會要改革．立委要開會。再一次重申,請副總召可以收回你們的散會動議啦。這樣真的不好啦。要不社會看到說,米兔的法案、資訊安全法案,或是國家機密安全的這個法案,你們要反對、你們要提散會動議,不讓人信。這社會對公民黨及民眾黨的觀感,會真的不好啦。"},{"start":330.891,"end":332.614,"text":"好不好我們微笑與對開開心心來開會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"151503","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151503","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3367ec03ed5452310de97e999b50eca937cdcb4691eb09bf4e22925ffb17d10bc285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:39:37 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09:49:40","影片長度":"00:10:03","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計8案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計1案。\n三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。\n四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案。）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-13"},"duration":603,"end_time":"2024-04-22T09:49:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T09:39:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":199,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時39分）謝謝主席，請李孟諺秘書長。"],["主席：請李秘書長。"],["李秘書長孟諺：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：秘書長早。秘書長，今天既然是您來這裡備詢，我想什麼問題都應該可以問，因為國家的事都是行政院的事。","第一個，其實我要呼應剛剛張宏陸委員說的，我一直主張我們中央政府雖然是中央，還要接一個地方才會到人民，但也正因為這個距離，所以中央所做的事務、資訊，其實應該是要更明白地揭露給人民知道、給民眾知道，這樣才知道中央的這個層級，政府到底做了什麼事，比如剛剛張委員說的兒童未來館的興建，現在兒童未來館的興建不但在加緊進度當中，而且我記得預算也增加許多嘛，然後這個建築師也是得到大獎，這個資訊秘書長知道嗎？"],["李秘書長孟諺：是，我都有掌握。"],["蘇委員巧慧：現在預算已經增加到165億，對不對？"],["李秘書長孟諺：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：而且它的建築師，我們是由張瑪龍陳玉霖聯合建築師事務所，以及日本非常知名的伊東豊雄，是這樣子的一個好的建築師，得到了整個案子的首獎，正要開始興建，對不對？"],["李秘書長孟諺：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以這種事情其實應該要能夠大力地彰顯出來，讓大家知道那一塊荒廢了幾十年的地，即將要有新風貌。"],["李秘書長孟諺：所以在徵選建築團隊完成之後，文化部其實有召開了一個類似記者會的活動，讓外界知道這個建築團隊過去有非常好的資歷。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以第一個部分，我認為揭露資訊其實是非常重要的，不是只有在野黨要求的這一類的資訊，我們做了哪一些事情也應該要如此啊，像我今天要來跟你討論的社會住宅的部分，我也認為社會住宅現在做到哪裡，中央到底做了多少，地方做了多少？這種比例、資訊也應該要能夠清楚地列在社會住宅的資訊網站上面，尤其是包括興建中和規劃中的，都應該要能夠揭露，我為什麼這樣講呢？因為其實我自己推動多年的一個案子，在我們樹林區，希望能夠有社會住宅，並且是能夠有醫養專區結合進來的這個案子，我在網站上就看不到啊，我覺得這是很可惜的一件事情，這個我們等一下再另外來討論。","在進入到這個之前，我想再跟秘書長請教一下，既然講到興建中、規劃中，中央和地方政府權責推動社宅的這個部分，你知道現在中央和地方推動的速度各是如何嗎？這幾年中央和地方，以新北、臺北來講好了。"],["李秘書長孟諺：是，目前我的瞭解……"],["蘇委員巧慧：中央比較多，還是地方比較多？"],["李秘書長孟諺：以新北來講……"],["蘇委員巧慧：以新北來講。"],["李秘書長孟諺：我們用已決標的這個數字來看，中央的部分是一萬兩千多戶，地方的話是八千戶……"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，如果我……"],["李秘書長孟諺：所以中央大於地方的統計數據。"],["蘇委員巧慧：中央大於地方相當多，我們沒有說地方都沒有做，但是很顯然地是中央的數字遠高於地方，因為這幾年其實內政部的住都中心態度是非常積極的，但是我們回來看法規，其實在我們的社宅法裡面規定，社會住宅是中央和地方都可以興建，本來是立意良善，說兩邊、兩臺火車都可以前進，但是現在有些案子如果中央和地方的積極度不一樣的時候，其實反而會變成是找一些有的、沒的事情，看似合理，但是事實上我們在執行的過程就知道，你這個審查的速度是多快多慢，然後你要求補件的這個資料要到多細，你不斷不斷地要求補件，其實你的態度就是消極的嘛！","我剛剛在說的這個我的樹林醫養專區，就是一件很好的例子，我們花了這麼多的時間來告訴地方政府，我們帶來中央的資源，希望這個地方能夠不但有社宅，而且是長者居住這樣子的狀況，以好的立意要把這個社會住宅蓋起來，可是地方呢？地方看起來是因為它對選地有權力嘛，結果在這個過程當中，它會要求你說：我覺得對這個地方的交通影響甚鉅，你是不是可以做交通影響評估？一次評估來，這個資料不夠詳盡，我請你再送來第二次資料，再來第三次資料，到底它是真的有需要這樣的資料？還是其實它這個速度，就是因為我們的意見不一致，所以有卡關的狀態？秘書長，你知道我們的社會住宅案件當中，有多少件有這樣的狀況嗎？中央和地方不同調，所以推動的速度不一樣，你知道這樣的現象嗎？"],["李秘書長孟諺：我的瞭解是，確實每個地方政府態度不一致，有的確實是在速度上、效率上、配合度上都有一些……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，而且這些東西其實你放在檯面上的話，它也可以說得有憑有據：我要求地方提出交通影響評估。對啊，聽起來很合理啊！但是你到底要求它要到多細、次數要幾次，這個其中的玄機就是在裡面了嘛，所以……"],["李秘書長孟諺：我們會建議內政部是不是定期把各縣市政府的進度來對外公布。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，這就是回到我剛剛說的，這個資訊應該要被揭露，每一個中央層級、地方政府到底都要求哪一些資料要補件？進度是如何？要讓民眾可以瞭解，這樣才知道權責，那「責」在哪裡，這個在地方政府也要說清楚啊！不然，它看起來，我們中央現在推動得很快，對不對？可是地方慢，那這個帳到底要算誰的？這是第一件事情，我希望在社會住宅的部分，是能夠把中央跟地方的權責：第一，分清楚；第二，能夠把資訊揭露，讓社會公評，這是我的要求。"],["李秘書長孟諺：也跟委員報告，目前有一個新的政策，就是各縣市政府所開發的，譬如區段徵收區，新的要提供3%到5%的土地來作為社宅用地，直轄市要5%，縣的話要3%。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，因為我來自新北市，我們對社會住宅的需求量是大的，所以我非常支持現在的這個新的修正方案，我知道用直轄市來匡的話，因為六都的需求不一樣，所以有些縣市比如說臺中等等，他們會有其他不同的意見，但我認為新北市就這個規定來講，是非常合情合理的，所以我也希望中央就這個規定能夠有更多的彰顯跟資訊討論。"],["李秘書長孟諺：是，另外對於已經核定的，已經正在進行中的這些重劃區，譬如新北就是塭仔圳。"],["蘇委員巧慧：塭仔圳嘛，我們就直接講明了，就是塭仔圳啊！那麼大的一片。"],["李秘書長孟諺：這個部分內政部會用勸導，用類似協調的方式，目前應該也會有不錯的……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我是覺得資訊揭露其實是很重要的一環，因為以現在的民主時代來講，其實社會輿論、大家、全民一起來看，這個政策合不合理、規定好不好，其實是一個非常重要的部分。","好，我們如果把社會住宅這個部分講完的話，秘書長，其實我在上一次的記者會當中有提出一個概念，未來總質詢的話，我可能還會再繼續講的部分是，我們現在在社會住宅當中，有13類的人民、居民是可以優先入住的，我強烈地建議，基於國家政策在努力提升少子化的部分，其實有育兒需求或者是學齡兒童的年輕人、年輕夫妻，也應該要能夠更原則性地列入優先居住社會住宅的這個類別當中，尤其育兒及學齡其實是一段時間，我上次提出的其實就是，當我們住在裡面，然後懷孕生小孩，這是國家樂見的，可是等到他6歲，要決定上小學的學籍時，到底要不要搬家，可能剛好就卡在這個社會住宅更迭的部分，因為它是6年嘛，3年再加3年，延長之後6年，其實就剛好必須要搬離，這個部分是不是有機會可以有任何的規定讓它可以展延或通融？我想基於對抗少子化的這個部分來講，其實各界應該都能夠接受有育兒需求，尤其是有學齡兒童的年輕人可能可以展延，或者是占優先，我想這個規定社會應該是可以接受的，因為學籍的部分真的是一個很難處理的問題，我到底要不要用這個學籍去就讀小學，這個我想秘書長自己家裡有小孩應該很清楚吧！"],["李秘書長孟諺：是，這個我們會再來跟花次討論，請他們把這個部分納入考量。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，謝謝秘書長。"],["主席：好，謝謝蘇巧慧委員質詢。","下一位我們請牛煦庭委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-13","speakers":["吳琪銘","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃建賓","丁學忠","高金素梅","張智倫","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","黃國昌","麥玉珍","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計 8案；二、處理113年度中\n央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案；四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨\n產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案","agenda_id":"1133201_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.08096875,"end":4.148468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.148468750000001,"end":4.469093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.469093750000001,"end":4.6715937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.72221875,"end":57.000968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.25409375,"end":59.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.39721875,"end":88.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.25284375000001,"end":65.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.50346875000001,"end":81.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.03409375000001,"end":104.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.20034375,"end":182.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.43284375000002,"end":182.77034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.00659375,"end":183.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.93471875,"end":185.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.16659375,"end":186.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.12846875000002,"end":191.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.71034375000002,"end":189.06471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.08971875,"end":192.89534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.96284375000002,"end":201.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.75034375,"end":205.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.96534375000002,"end":204.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.82159375,"end":288.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.06596875,"end":331.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.31659375000004,"end":342.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.71159375,"end":358.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.26846875,"end":343.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.03409375,"end":367.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":367.09596875,"end":396.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.50909375000003,"end":406.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.02659375,"end":423.69471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.69471875000005,"end":451.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.03221875,"end":461.41034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.35159375,"end":463.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.32159375000003,"end":471.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.09659375,"end":583.0959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.2140937500001,"end":586.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.30659375,"end":585.8803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.67346875,"end":587.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.39909375,"end":592.0903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.0903437500001,"end":592.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.17471875,"end":592.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.19159375,"end":592.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.61346875,"end":592.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.6640937500001,"end":592.7990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.7990937500001,"end":592.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.90034375,"end":592.9172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.9172187500001,"end":592.9678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.9678437499999,"end":593.7778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.83221875,"end":597.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.96284375,"end":598.1653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.1653437500001,"end":599.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.9709687500001,"end":602.97471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.059,"end":4.079,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":21.198,"end":44.068,"text":"就是我們中央政府雖然是中央還要接一個地方才會到人民但也正因為這個距離所以中央所做的事務資訊其實是應該要更明白的揭露給人民知道給民眾知道這樣才知道中央的這個層級政府到底做了什麼事啊比如說剛剛張委員剛剛說的這個兒童未來館的興建"},{"start":46.209,"end":56.198,"text":"是啊,而且未來館的興建不但現在在加緊進度當中而且這個預算也增加許多嘛然後這個建築師也是得到大獎這資訊秘書長知道嗎?是,我有掌握"},{"start":59.468,"end":82.564,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。stanbul三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。stanbul三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。stanbul三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。stanbul三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案。stanbul三、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。stanbul三、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。"},{"start":89.048,"end":100.001,"text":"即將又有新風貌所以在徵選建築團隊完成之後文化部其實有召開了一個類似記者會讓外界知道這個建築團隊的過去有非常好的資歷"},{"start":104.847,"end":106.168,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":120.154,"end":120.314,"text":"報告案計2案。"},{"start":136.716,"end":165.038,"text":"規劃中的都應該要能夠揭露我為什麼這樣講因為其實我自己推動了多年的一個案子在我們樹林區希望能夠有社會住宅並且是能夠是有醫養專區結合進來的這個案子我在網站上就看不到我覺得這是很可惜的一件事情這個我們另外等一下來討論那在進入到本件這個之前我也想跟這個部長這邊再請教一下部長你就知道說"},{"start":165.899,"end":166.159,"text":"新聞新聞新聞新聞新聞"},{"start":184.079,"end":185.7,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。nolds."},{"start":185.7,"end":187.041,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。News."},{"start":187.041,"end":189.482,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。News."},{"start":202.944,"end":206.726,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":231.46,"end":234.464,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":246.357,"end":269.36,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":269.46,"end":274.125,"text":"、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":289.179,"end":291.12,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案"},{"start":311.292,"end":330.912,"text":"哇!啊這個到底他是真的有需要這樣的資料還是是其實他這個速度其實就是因為我們的意見不一致所以有卡關的狀態秘書長你知道我們的社會住宅案件當中有多少就有這樣的狀況嗎?中央和地方不同調所以推動的速度不一樣你有知道這樣的現象嗎?"},{"start":332.653,"end":349.262,"text":"我的瞭解是確實每個地方政府態度不一致,那有的確實是在速度上、效率上、配合度上都有一些……對,而且這些東西你其實要放在檯面上的話,他也可以說得有情有據、有憑有據啊,有要求地方的提出交通影響評估,對啊聽起來很合理啊,但是你到底要求他要到多細?"},{"start":356.145,"end":380.163,"text":"字數要幾字這個就是其中的玄機就是在裡面了嘛所以我們會建議內政部這個定期把各縣市政府的進度來對外共同這就是回到我剛剛說的這個資訊應該要被揭露每一個中央層級地方政府到底都要求哪一些資料要補貼進度是如何要讓民眾可以了解這樣才知道"},{"start":381.364,"end":386.712,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":397.005,"end":423.457,"text":"社會住宅的部分是能夠把中央跟地方的權責能夠第一分清楚第二能夠把資訊揭露讓社會公平這是我的要求啊那有跟委員報告目前有一個新的政策就是各縣市政府所開發的譬如說區段徵收區要提供3到5%直轄市要5%那縣的話要3%的土地來做為社宅用地"},{"start":423.877,"end":443.064,"text":"因為我來自新北市我們對社會住宅的需求量是大的所以我非常支持現在的這個新的修正方案那我知道用直轄市來匡約的話因為六都的需求不一樣所以有些縣市比如說台中等等他們有其他不同的意見但我認為新北市"},{"start":443.684,"end":462.929,"text":"做這個規定來講是非常合情合理的所以呢我也是希望中央能夠就這個規定能夠有更多的彰顯跟資訊討論是那另外對於已經合定的已經正在進行中的新的這些重劃區譬如說像新北就是溫子郡溫子郡嗎我們就直接講明了就是溫子郡啊那麼大的一片內政部會用勸導"},{"start":465.069,"end":470.27,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。netesle,您的評論是如何?您的評論是如何?"},{"start":494.497,"end":514.036,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":514.036,"end":536.476,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":536.476,"end":541.42,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關"},{"start":565.72,"end":568.801,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":597.214,"end":597.394,"text":"請劉勳廷委員"}]}},{"id":"151502","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151502","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c33625b4bdf5c3b85916cff82116bdf94ca8dcb4691eb09bf4e2beabdca209669a6e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:32:07 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09:43:19","影片長度":"00:11:12","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":672,"end_time":"2024-04-22T09:43:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T09:32:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":313,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時32分）有請部長，還有警政署副署長，還有交通部司長。"],["主席：請薛部長，請李副署長。"],["薛部長富盛：林委員早。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。部長，噪音污染大概是長期我們國人生活最為困擾的，而且現在大家生活都高壓力，然後晚上睡不著，又再加上噪音，這個議題大概不分城鄉。這幾年當然環境部、交通部跟警政署確實有非常多的解方，可是是不是能達到效果，我覺得有待檢驗。先請問一下警政署，目前是不是有掌握全國縣市執行環警監聯合稽查的狀況，請問每週攔查幾次，每次從幾點到幾點開始攔查？"],["李副署長西河：以112年來講，我們聯合稽查有一千八百二十六次，去年整體我們自己在執勤當中，不管是盤查、攔檢的，有查獲發覺有改裝的……"],["林委員月琴：等於要掌握各縣市的狀況。"],["李副署長西河：整體的數據，我請組長說明。"],["劉組長振安：報告委員，基本上環警監的勤務並不是我們警察去規劃的，因為我們的人數比較多，環保跟監理人員比較少，所以是由環保那一邊規劃出來之後，它有規劃多少次，我們就多少員警配合他……"],["林委員月琴：我為什麼這樣問，我們辦公室這邊因為拿不到資料，所以我們致電了六都的環保局，先不看其他的縣市，高雄市是在我們禮拜五下班之前都沒有辦法提供，逐一確認之後結果都不一。第一個，桃園市目前看起來是最高，因為每天執行；新北市事實上是次高，你看一下最高、次高，當然也要問的是整個人力搭配的狀況是這樣，不是只有說每天去查，或者是每週四到五次，還要看他查的點到底是多少。所以想問一下，請問警政署針對噪音管制執法的頻率強度，目前中央是不是有統一的最低執法頻率？因為環警監的確不是你們啟動，可是如果你們不配合的話，基本上這個效果非常的差，那就要問警政署這邊知不知道各地的作法是什麼？"],["劉組長振安：報告委員，原則上有關於環保噪音取締部分，我們是屬於被動配合的機關，那這個環警……"],["林委員月琴：所以就是環保有找你們，你們才去做，環保如果沒有找你們，你們就沒有去做？"],["劉組長振安：對，這是第一個，就是環保那邊有排的時候，我們一定配合；另外，我們自己本身的防制危險駕車的勤務部分，可能會在後半夜或是深夜的時候，我們也會請環保……"],["林委員月琴：可是中央如果沒有特別要求的話，會不會如果環保找各地的警局去配合的時候，通常也不可行？因為你這邊大概沒有統一的要求的頻率，就像幼童專用車，它有一些檢驗，在路上攔查的頻率，而且有被法規規定，所以我想問一下，你們中央自己到底有沒有特別去做這樣的配合？"],["薛部長富盛：跟林委員報告，我剛剛的資料裡面，事實上這裡面環警監聯合稽查從110年到上個月，總共四千零九十七個場次，告發的次數是七千七百三十……"],["林委員月琴：是，可是如果是分散到各縣市不一的話，那個狀態就會像現在看到的是桃園最高，然後新北市是次高，可是我們也不知道這個量體的狀態是什麼，是不是因為這些區域裡面有特別的地點事實上是比較常發生的，所以有去做，所以我覺得中央比較沒有辦法掌握。"],["薛部長富盛：這一點我想我們再來跟交通部、內政部思考一下……"],["林委員月琴：是不是這個部分三個部會應該要共同，因為這件事情不是只有環境部啦！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["林委員月琴：有關聲音取締設備的裝置狀況，這部分一樣也是我們去問六都，一樣高雄沒有提供，所以針對六都的狀況，地方填的跟中央填的不太一樣，因為環境部給我們的事實上像新北市就落差很大，是他們自己加錢去買這些東西，還是事實上有一些特殊的原因，所以看到的資料不太一樣？可是這部分關係到環境部對於各地的配置狀況，如果跟他所知道的不太一樣的話，所以是不是一週內可以提供，這樣未來你才知道我們的經費要怎麼去搭配、配合，才會有辦法掌握，因為畢竟設備很重要。"],["薛部長富盛：好。我跟林委員再報告一下，環境部跟各縣市在分配聲音照相的這個部分，也必須各縣市首長願意去提撥配合款，假如他們不願意，那很抱歉，可能這個機會就會給其他縣市，所以這個可能也是……"],["林委員月琴：可是也要知道哪些地方、哪些時段是噪音污染嚴重度比較高的，那才是環保單位要著力的……"],["薛部長富盛：是，我覺得這個應該，好，OK。"],["林委員月琴：所以整個噪音取締的設備跟手段，事實上在執行的時候我們還看到一些問題點，就是你的聯合稽查必須要有警方配合支援，所以我為什麼剛剛先問警政署，就是因為各縣市執行的頻率不太一樣。還有移動式的噪音照相，因為環境條件蠻嚴苛的，所以常常取締成效不彰；而固定式的噪音照相地點相同，大家都會因為這樣子而規避掉……"],["薛部長富盛：對，大家都知道。"],["林委員月琴：那有些縣市會希望，因為機動式的陳情案，所以他會希望採移動式的，可是主要選擇這個採購的時候，所以就想問部長，你對於目前噪音取締的執行方式是不是滿意？"],["薛部長富盛：有改善的空間，因為這部分剛剛也才執行一段時間，我們always一個政策推動開始初期總是可能還會有哪些不足，那就透過後續陸陸續續再去把它改善……"],["林委員月琴：好，那就煩勞部長交接給下一任部長，真的要好好的去做，因為國人事實上是蠻困擾的。"],["薛部長富盛：好，認同。"],["林委員月琴：目前不只是我們的現行法規管制真的是不夠嚴格，因為罰款對很多有意違規的，就像每一個月去繳你的公寓大廈管理費一樣，事實上很多人會有這樣的行為應該是明知故犯的狀態，所以車主，尤其是機車，如果汽車一定是扣車，可是機車的話，你是限期改善，有些被罰的人他就是回去改一改，然後去監理站查驗OK之後他再改回來，所以這基本上反而讓車行多賺一筆，不只罰也罰不怕，根本抓也抓不完，抓了等於沒抓，所以請問交通部、環境部可不可以針對這部分加重罰則，針對累犯當場查扣車輛，不知道這兩個部會可不可以回答，可以做得到嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：林委員，我個人的感覺是，的確這個金額對很多玩車族以及那些擁有高檔車的人，這個真的是完全沒有影響，反而是安排要去上課，甚至是累犯幾次之後，是不是可以採取其他方法，我覺得可能會比罰錢更有效。"],["林委員月琴：是啊！可是你現在採行的就是登記系統。"],["薛部長富盛：我想就是開始執行，那有不足的再補強，我想……"],["林委員月琴：你的登記系統，光講機車，現在臺灣有1,455萬輛的機車，可是現在登記的是一萬四千九百多件，然後我剛剛看簡報，只有1,957件是已經經過登記的好寶寶們，都已經去登記了，可是民眾如果自願去登記，改裝的當然經登記就可以上路，可是這個排氣管，合格的可能還是有問題。而改裝尚未經檢驗的，如果不是你那225組的話，民眾去送檢，檢驗合格就可以上路，可是有些人根本不會想去，因為他們就是想要這個聲音來彰顯他們的存在感，他們根本不會去，所以民眾不去登記，除非被攔檢，否則你根本就沒有辦法解決這個噪音的問題，所以我對於這樣的登記制度，我打一個問號，就是它可以改善噪音的問題，我打一個問號。所以部長，還是麻煩你，因為時間關係，請提供我一個報告，就你未來如何改善精進，因為只是採用登記，我覺得效果不彰，所以我認為源頭管制是非常重要的，因為透過環、警、監的攔查跟登記制度去管制根本不足，源頭管理首先就是設備，可是我們對於排氣管的這個設備並沒有明定變更將會進行嚴厲的裁處，包括吊扣牌照等等，這些設備根本就無法可管。還有，協助提供改裝服務的店家也沒有源頭管理，因為經濟部對於改裝商品的說法是它沒有污染的事實，可是改裝商品被改裝之後，確實會造成污染，但經濟部反而認為沒有，其實我們應該從商品被使用的效果、後果來看這樣的一個定義，甚至以消費者角度上來看，可能他也不知道他改裝竟然會產生噪音，所以還是希望未來這一塊是不是可以比照國外，一個是對車主提高罰金，譬如美國紐約，現在其他州也開始跟進，也就是大概跟臺灣的罰金相差十倍，還有源頭管理，應該是改裝的車廠如果違規，那麼是不是達到幾次之後，應該要吊銷它的營業執照或者是應該裁處，我希望這部分是不是可以去研議，而不是再採登記，或者就是在路上抓，我覺得再多的警力、再多的人力大概抓不勝抓，再麻煩部長，謝謝。"],["薛部長富盛：瞭解，謝謝林委員的建議。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員的發言。","接下來請廖偉翔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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事實上這裡面環境間聯合稽查從110年到上個月總共4097個場次 那告發的次數是7730可是如果你是分散到各縣市的話 不一的話 那狀態就會像現在看到的是桃園最高嘛 然後"},{"start":233.827,"end":248.964,"text":"新北事實上是次高嘛可是我們也不知道這個量體的狀態是什麼是不是有因為這些區域裡邊有特別的地點事實上是比較常發生的所以有去做所以比較中央我覺得比較沒有辦法掌握了"},{"start":251.352,"end":263.858,"text":"這一點我想我們再來跟這個交通部、內政部來思考一下三個部會應該要共同因為這件事情不是只有環境部有關聲音取締設備的裝置狀況這一樣也是我們去問"},{"start":269.856,"end":271.016,"text":"林月琴林月琴"},{"start":296.425,"end":303.469,"text":"我跟林委員再報告一下就是說環境部跟各縣市在分配這個聲音照相的這個部分也必須各縣市首長願意提撥配合款"},{"start":324.059,"end":328.144,"text":"所以整個噪音取締的設備跟手段事實上在執行的時候我們還看到一些問題點就是說"},{"start":343.863,"end":357.631,"text":"您的聯合稽查必須要由警方配合所以我為什麼剛剛先問警政署可是各縣市執行的頻率不太一樣還有移動式的噪音照相這個因為環境的條件上蠻嚴苛的所以常常取締"},{"start":359.028,"end":359.228,"text":"主席"},{"start":383.21,"end":410.646,"text":"有改善的空間因為這個剛剛也才執行一段時間嘛那我們allways一個政策推動開始初期總是可能還會有哪些不足那就透過後續陸陸續續再去把它改善那就煩勞部長交接給下一任部長真的要好好的去做啦因為這對國人事實上是蠻困擾的那目前不只是我們的現行法規管制真的是不夠嚴格因為罰款"},{"start":411.647,"end":411.847,"text":"林月琴"},{"start":427.961,"end":448.507,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":448.755,"end":475.669,"text":"所以根本抓也抓不完抓了等於沒抓所以請問交通部、環境部可不可以針對加重罰則然後針對累犯當場查扣車輛不知道這兩個部會可不可以回答可以做得到嗎因為我個人的感覺是的確這個金額對很多這個特別是在玩車族以及那些高檔車的人這個真的是完全沒有印象對可是你現在"},{"start":477.09,"end":477.591,"text":"對,你的登記系統,我們現在台灣有一千"},{"start":498.191,"end":501.173,"text":"光講機車有1455萬輛的機車可是現在登記的是14900多件然後只有1900我剛看簡報是1957件"},{"start":511.155,"end":511.295,"text":"林月琴"},{"start":535.742,"end":553.882,"text":"﹗"},{"start":554.322,"end":571.713,"text":"還是麻煩因為時間關係請提供一個報告就你未來如何改善經濟因為只是採用這個登記的話我覺得效果不彰所以我認為源頭管制是非常重要的因為透過肩頸間的一個"},{"start":573.274,"end":587.899,"text":"蘭茶跟登記這個制度去管制根本就是不足的源頭管理反而是首先就是設備可是我們對於排氣管的這個設備並沒有明定規定說要去變更的時候做一個嚴厲的採儲"},{"start":590.336,"end":590.596,"text":"李慧琴"},{"start":617.273,"end":646.373,"text":"希望針對這一塊甚至消費者角度上來看的話可能他也不知道他改裝竟然會產生噪音所以還是希望是不是可以比照國外一個事實上是對車主提高罰金那美國大概就是紐約現在其他州也開始跟進也就是說大概跟台灣相差罰金差10倍還有源頭管理應該是改裝的車廠如果他違規那是不是"},{"start":647.093,"end":647.573,"text":"林月琴委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"151501","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151501","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c33666134eff08ef797497e999b50eca937cdcb4691eb09bf4e2989ff97b2754fa435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:30:03 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09:39:22","影片長度":"00:09:19","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計8案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計1案。\n三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。\n四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案。）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-13"},"duration":559,"end_time":"2024-04-22T09:39:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T09:30:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":171,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（9時29分）謝謝主席，首先請黨產會主委。"],["主席：請黨產會林主委。"],["林主任委員峯正：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：林主委好。首先請教一個非常基本的問題，因為上個月國民黨黨主席在會議的時候提到執政黨可能會透過黨產會來沒收未來四年他們的政黨補助款，然後包括所有的國民黨收入，當然這個我相信你們已經澄清過很多次了，是不是藉這個機會再跟大家澄清一下，你們會追討這些政黨補助款來成為你們合法的收入嗎？"],["林主任委員峯正：其實這個事情在黨產會成立之初，第一個函釋就在講這個事，因為我們也注意到外界可能會有所誤解，所以特別在七年前就提出澄清。那個講法很簡單，就是不當黨產的處理只針對不當黨產，如果是合法收入就完全不受影響，也就是不會成為任何處分跟追徵的對象，那裡面當然會包括政黨補助款、合法的政治獻金、選舉補助款，這一類全部都是依照現行法令可以有的收入。如果從實證的經驗看起來，國民黨在過去七、八年來，有哪一年的政黨補助款被黨產會執行了嗎？沒有啊！那為什麼突然明年就會被執行？我是不太懂這個邏輯在哪裡，跟我們過去的經驗也不符合，所以朱主席對外表達的那個資訊應該是不正確的，因此特別在此再澄清一次。當然他說的時候，我們立刻在兩、三個小時內就發出澄清稿了，我想很多媒體也都登了，但是我想外界還是有一些人會誤會。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝林主委再次地協助澄清這件事情。再來我要問一下，因為其實黨產會在2016年的時候就認定中投跟欣裕台是國民黨的附隨組織，而且那時候也表示國民黨這些全部的股權都應該要收歸國有，後來他們就一路的上訴，結果打到了最高行政法院，這個判決也訴訟了七年，終於在今年1月的時候，最高行政法院判決確定中投跟欣裕台這兩家就是不當黨產，這個認定並沒有錯誤。既然現在法院都判決了，我想問一下，這兩家公司名下有156億的資產，你們現在追討的進度是如何？"],["林主任委員峯正：跟委員再說明一下，沒有錯，委員剛剛的資訊都是正確的，但是有一個部分我們必須要說，因為當時提起黨產訴訟其實有三個單位，一個是國民黨，國民黨部分就如委員剛剛說的，在1月二十幾號的時候它就敗訴確定了，另外中投公司跟欣裕台公司，他們本身也提起訴訟。所以還有兩件，這兩件原來在高等行政法院的時候，法院表示他們是不適格，他們沒有資格提起訴訟，因為他們不是股權的所有人，而是公司本身，因此當時就把訴訟駁回，可是他們上訴之後，現在最高行政法院又發回，所以那兩個案件目前反而還在高等行政法院訴訟當中，3月跟4月分別開過一次庭，是同一個法官，看起來法官應該會儘速處理，我想可能還要再幾個月，因為如果高等行政法院再把它駁回，那麼他們又依照其法律上的權利，又可以上訴到最高行政法院，所以可能還有兩個審級，因此我想可能半年會跑不掉。如果那兩個案子還沒有確認，變成我們的接管動作就沒辦法進行，因為沒有全案確定，但就國民黨部分已經確定了，這個是清楚的，所以在我看來，應該是樂觀的啦！因為主要的國民黨部分都已經敗訴確定，而另外兩個本來不應該有權利提起訴訟的公司，應該是不會有太大的問題，但希望我們的預判是正確的。"],["黃委員捷：OK，好，謝謝林主委的說明。再來我要請教一下，當然接下來半年可能還會來來回回，等其他兩個單位上訴的結果出來之後，你們接下來會如何使用這一些促轉基金？因為我比較想知道的是，最後真的這兩家公司的一些資產追討回來之後作為促轉基金，你們是不是會完全的使用在人權相關的推動上面？"],["林主任委員峯正：我剛才也說明過了，就是依照促轉條例第七條，所有收回的黨產，不管它是什麼樣的形式，包括不動產、現金、公司的股權，這些都會回到行政院所設的促轉基金，它有監管委員會，但目前促轉基金的主管單位是國發會，我想他們會徵詢大家的意見來統一看要怎麼樣使用，做一個比較妥善的規劃。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝林主委的說明，請回座。"],["林主任委員峯正：謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：接下來我們先請人權處副處長。"],["主席：請人權處副處長。"],["黃委員捷：在副處長就位的同時，我先講一下，其實在2022年的時候，內政部有一個條例是推動威權象徵處置補助作業要點，我有看到你們的要點內容，就是如果針對公共場所的威權塑像或是場館的空間進行移除或改名的話，內政部是願意補助的，最高的補助額度是10萬塊，只是我在今年2月29號看到的統計情形，現在列管的空間跟遺像有934件，可是已完成處置的只有165件，等於是進度不到兩成。我想請教一下，現在的問題是卡在哪裡？"],["石副處長樸：委員好、主席好。因為有關威權象徵的處置有很多不同的管有機關，包括中央政府、地方政府，在不同管有機關上面，內政部在威權處置上面仍然需要跟不同的管有機關來做溝通跟協調。補助的部分也就是用補助的誘因跟機關協調之後，如果機關也願意做一些相關的處理，包括對社會的溝通等等，它就可以來跟內政部申請。當然，另外一個部分是因為現在的管有機關裡面，有一部分是屬於在像國防部的軍營裡面，這部分在前幾個星期的輿論裡面也有提到，就是他們在整個部隊的傳統上面來講，在處置上面需要多所考量，這個部分行政院也都在跟不同的部會之間做更積極的溝通。"],["黃委員捷：好，這就是我希望來跟你們拜託的，就是政院其實應該要更積極的，不是被動的，也就是內政部願意提供補助，但是要看各地方、各單位願不願意申請，其實這樣子轉型正義的進度會非常地怠慢。","最後我要請教一下，就是中正紀念堂，這個已經是老掉牙的題目，但我們還是要有所進度，我還是再舉一下我們高雄的例子，高雄在2007年、十七年前，當時的陳菊市長、現在的陳菊院長，就已經把高雄市的「中正文化中心」改名為「文化中心」，不只是已改名，而且把蔣中正的銅像都已經移除了。過了十七年，現在中正紀念堂卻沒有辦法來辦理，甚至沒有任何的進度，我不知道現在你們有什麼具體的進程是可以讓我們民眾來知道的嗎？"],["石副處長樸：有關中正紀念堂轉型的這一個案子，在行政院的推動轉型正義會報已經有成立一個專案小組在這邊執行，是由副院長來召集的……"],["黃委員捷：什麼時候可以拆？"],["石副處長樸：有關中正紀念堂的處理部分，文化部有在做規劃，他們也做了一些不同的社會溝通，因為在整個案子上面來講，各界還是有一些不同的意見在這邊做協調，不過行政院也已經很明確的指示文化部，拆或不拆這件事情可能需要多溝通，但是在沒有做成具體的建議之前，是不是能有一些比較短暫性的措施來做一些……"],["黃委員捷：像是什麼？"],["石副處長樸：比如像二二八的時候我們會關閉堂體的大門，來降低整個中正紀念堂一種威權化的意象，以上。"],["黃委員捷：好，我是希望像是憲兵交接這種崇拜的儀式，還有銅像的拆除，這其實都是應該要優先來做的啦！我當然知道行政院在18號的時候有核定通過5月19號是白色恐怖記憶日，這個當然有助於我們的集體記憶來做轉型正義，可是轉型正義就是在跟時間賽跑，我必須要再次的強調，這個時間真的是一刻不得怠慢，所以我還是希望政院在這整件事情上面可以更積極、更加速，好嗎？"],["石副處長樸：好。"],["黃委員捷：謝謝。"],["石副處長樸：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員。","下一位請蘇巧慧委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-13","speakers":["吳琪銘","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃建賓","丁學忠","高金素梅","張智倫","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","黃國昌","麥玉珍","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra Kacaw"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-22"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計 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INTERVIEWER三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。ittee"},{"start":117.931,"end":119.251,"text":"兩家公司名下有156億的資產。我們現在追討的進度是如何?"},{"start":146.395,"end":163.015,"text":"委員說明一下就是說沒有錯委員剛剛的資訊都是正確的但是有一個部分我們必須要說因為當時提起這個黨產訴訟其實有三個單位一個是國民黨那國民黨的部分就如委員剛剛說在1月20幾號的時候他就敗訴就確定了"},{"start":164.477,"end":167.179,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":191.312,"end":193.693,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案"},{"start":212.641,"end":214.343,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。厲"},{"start":236.192,"end":259.721,"text":"OK好謝謝林主委的說明再來我也要請教一下就是接下來啦當然如果接下來半年可能還會來來回回那中等其他兩個單位現在上訴的結果出來之後那我們接下來會如何使用這一些促轉基金喔因為我比較想知道的是最後啦真的這兩家公司的這一些資產追討回來之後"},{"start":261.482,"end":266.417,"text":"作為促轉基金,我們是不是會完全的使用在人權相關的推動上面?"},{"start":266.98,"end":293.481,"text":"我剛才也說明過了就是依照出產條例第7條所有收回的黨產不管它是什麼樣的形式包括不凍產包括現金包括公司的股權這個都會回到行政院所設的出產基金那麼它有監管委員會那目前這個出產基金主管的單位是國發會他們會我想會徵詢大家的意見來統一來看要怎麼樣使用做一個比較妥善的規劃好謝謝林主委的說明可以請回座那接下來我們先請人權處副處長"},{"start":297.506,"end":299.688,"text":"請我們人情處副處長副處長在就位的同時我來先講一下因為其實我們現在2022年的時候內政部有一個條例是推動威權象徵處置的補助作業要點那我有看到你們這樣的要點內容"},{"start":319.227,"end":323.648,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。breviation 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大家都在現場只有你們都倒果為因嘛你們不讓人家開會嘛"},{"start":24.087,"end":51.462,"text":"應該講說我們版本差一天進來還有劉志強還有翁小英還有很多人版本必然審查啊這在立法院非常其中平常啊大家都彼此尊重啊各位你不是說委員會中間主義嗎為什麼你都不敢講話你在聽說你都不敢講因為廣場委員坐在那裡負責為事舉手而已這個很清楚啦等一下你叫我後面瞄清楚我們今天有機會對到我們就來好好講嘛"},{"start":53.513,"end":78.491,"text":"對齁?每次講到情緒來講到情緒嘛。議席中間是我人開的嘛。所有辦公室拼在一起,一直在討論。還有一個農場委員,我們已經給你什麼、我們給你什麼。另外一支刑事、協法保障的權益,回頭是農場委員所給的。這不是恩賜啊。所以他搞什麼,就是拜你們要長期的連壓嘛。然後其他辦公不併嘛。"},{"start":79.793,"end":94.094,"text":"那就不能討論不能發言嘛,組織法都不可以啊。然後這樣表決一直過去。當然唯一的武器就商業動力。突顯的荒謬,我告訴各位,然後禮拜四我們組織的時候是怎麼樣?"},{"start":95.523,"end":114.402,"text":"很多版本在公約版本裡面沒有的當然有些要討論啊以後還是要併跟審查啊委員會從來想要併在一起啊因為還要併在一起啊為什麼我們的版本都不能討論要商會所以所有原則一起農場你不拿那個版本"},{"start":115.84,"end":131.608,"text":"見天日嘛!你不能讓人家被討厭嘛!一路掩蓋、蓋牌、蓋牌到底嘛!所以大家又不講話、裝在那裡!讓極左部隊,就是如此而已啊!當然我想你講,委員講說,他在第一次,你才剛到立法院你還會看到很多第一次的!"},{"start":133.356,"end":136.318,"text":"各位要瞭解。二、二、二十號。二、二、二十號是不是韓國主持第一次委員會?"},{"start":149.344,"end":176.861,"text":"議員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案件及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法�"},{"start":177.998,"end":199.001,"text":"分區委員在後台啊,本來是10點45分後只要講到11點提定要處理,讓大統會退,讓院長會上台。這我們歷經時間,這立法院很多協商的,過去劉聰恩院長的時候,有些想衝突的協商,他一個禮拜停止開會,你們常常再來。我們院長又如此,誰都如此。"},{"start":200.202,"end":227.373,"text":"所以學長本來就是一個意識手段哪有要用一定時間,你們十分鐘講得出來嗎?連韓國瑜都不敢,第一次就是如此各位我們不要對自己瞎扯你要扯整個薪水小偷,這樣我們會立法院我們就是委員中心主義民進黨過去不管在野執政,我們都用意識手段我們在野執政的時候,只會"},{"start":228.633,"end":255.666,"text":"讓主席說,只要充足沒有辦法開會,才會進入衛會。能夠開到台灣的,大家要解釋給他講。我誠意講,一條法案講天的,那過去依然就是認證嘛。只要充足,充足大家都會去,才沒有辦法出去。我們在展示我們的民主程序,展示我們要好好審查的誠意,給大家看。可是呢,這要記國務司長,國務就不可以講。"},{"start":258.052,"end":271.391,"text":"議員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案件中,立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件中,立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件中,立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件中,立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件中,立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":272.844,"end":299.54,"text":"坦白講,臨時匪憲端正,這民意反覆不起來的啊。這是全程撕破的。這個倒也很清楚,你就不要這樣哭了嘛。像今天我看,這個副總召好像趕著要去大陸了。他就開始在底下連署。大家有沒有看到他們提出三個東西出來?現在連委員會都可以沒收。什麼時候立法院以前到現在?什麼時候委員會能不能開?能不能討論?事由﹖"},{"start":301.941,"end":329.647,"text":"舉手來表決,只有國民黨來決定,那今天我們就建議大家去看喔,額後四年,只要國民黨民眾黨合起來,只要這個委員會來自己專案報告都不可以,這個法案不可以討論,你就要來上會。這是何其嚴重啊。連委員會都可以沒說,法院都可以沒說,什麼都可以沒說。這樣就,你們不要以為齁,加起來過半,可以翻轉天下了。"},{"start":331.585,"end":347.235,"text":"你得到必然的罰,很酷啦。我再告訴各位,今天這個法案在平常也不夠。你們沒有提版本,哪一個委員會都是一樣的。沒有版本,沒有行政版本,那就損嘛。"},{"start":348.195,"end":362.108,"text":"有的是等行政版本來,這個不可能有行政版本,所以是立法院帶來共同的討論。這是立法院核心價值嘛,大家都要維持在憲政體制以下來做這個事情。立法院沒有潛力,你一直擴張,坦白講這還是違憲的。"},{"start":365.236,"end":386.022,"text":"所以今天我要再度強調,不是你們國會刀暴力就決定哪一個法院可以審、哪一個委會可以開。立法院從來沒有如此。大家注意看喔,這一刻正在發生。夫人席委員,你三個東西可以拿出來了,秀一下吧。我看你現在很認真。我這很認真看你們在幹什麼。"},{"start":388.063,"end":396.694,"text":"韓國昌委員請你去背負你的版本,不要依附共產黨,然後又不講話,頭搖搖去,沒有用了。"}]}},{"id":"151499","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151499","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3361baa190dbb424fc5c59641e9d13ec658dcb4691eb09bf4e2c1ddeb1cac72fbc55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:25:02 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09:31:59","影片長度":"00:11:09","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":669,"end_time":"2024-04-22T09:31:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T09:20:50+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":242,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時20分）主席、各位委員、各位官員，早安，請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長早。上禮拜部長有提到要回去學校教書了嘛，對不對？"],["薛部長富盛：是，因為65歲了，必須退休。"],["陳委員菁徽：在這邊也祝福您可以繼續為我們國家作育英才。"],["薛部長富盛：是，我會。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝。部長，有關噪音的問題，這是目前民眾打電話到各縣市政府的1955等等的民怨之首，統計起來臺灣有睡眠障礙的比率大概是20%，這些人半夜一被吵醒就會陷入嚴重的失眠，我們也有看到各縣市政府都在加強取締、積極開罰，甚至從源頭管理規範機車改裝排氣等等多管齊下，但是我想要問一下，因為前瞻計畫第4期到今年年底就要結束了，現任國發會主委之前宣布第5期會聚焦在擴大淨零能量及地熱氫能等等，反而這種跟老百姓生活很貼近的議題卻沒有提到。請問環境部對於前瞻計畫第5期預算中，積極處理噪音問題這件事情有沒有什麼想法？"],["薛部長富盛：第5期現在還在規劃，因為第4期是執行到今年，還有8個月左右，我剛剛也報告過，今年我們前瞻計畫跟公共建設大概將近1.9億……"],["陳委員菁徽：有，會買300台嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：306台。至於第5期，我發現現在環境部不只是噪音這個議題，事實上還有淨零科技、資源循環等應該可以爭取更多的前瞻建設，跟地方政府來共同合作，讓我們的環境能夠更永續的發展。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，因為地方政府7月要編預算了嘛……"],["薛部長富盛：是，我們正在進行。"],["陳委員菁徽：8月要提出預算書，所以他們現在也會很緊張，畢竟這些科技執法的費用非常高，他們也不太可能負擔這個，必須要靠中央來幫忙，所以我們也希望環境部的態度要出來，讓地方政府好好做事。"],["薛部長富盛：好，可以，這個我們會……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員給我們的建議。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，螢幕上這個是你們環境部小編所做的文宣，宣傳大家要積極回收紙餐具、紙容器等等，不過我想問一下部長，您可能是住在雙北或新竹……"],["薛部長富盛：我住臺中。"],["陳委員菁徽：請問您有過自己追垃圾車的經驗嗎？你自己有追過垃圾車嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：因為我住的是社區，我們社區是放在……"],["陳委員菁徽：由廠商一起拿去回收嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：對，所以不用追垃圾車。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們有接到中南部民眾跟我們反映說，當他把這些紙餐具、紙容器回收好了之後拿去給垃圾車，結果清潔隊跟他說這個不收，請他當作一般垃圾塞進來就好，請問你有聽說這樣的狀況嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：有，這個我有聽過，不過昨天正好是世界地球日，在大安森林公園有一個活動，慈濟的顏執行長告訴我，現在慈濟有一個技術是針對紙餐具的，紙餐具為什麼現在一般來講不回收，就是因為它雖然中間是紙的，但是上下都一層……"],["陳委員菁徽：有PE塗層，所以要把它先分開。"],["薛部長富盛：對，現在慈濟他們已經有辦法把那個分開，所以事實上那個紙都還可以回收，我也請顏執行長把這個技術跟環境部分享一下，我覺得假如這個可行，事實上慈濟也在做了，我覺得應該也可以由環境部來推動，跟各……"],["陳委員菁徽：我先跟部長報告一下這個問題到底在哪裡，民團已經做了一個很清楚的圖示，我們來看一下，紙容器的製造商必須要合法繳費，才會挹注資源回收基金到末端的處理商，但是因為紙容器的製造商有地下的、有短繳費用的，所以我們現在的這個基金有短缺嘛……"],["薛部長富盛：是，完全正確。"],["陳委員菁徽：因此處理商就沒有辦法去鼓勵回收商好好的做好回收，你要不要想像一下，因為部長剛剛有講，你自己是住在公寓大廈，請問資源回收車的紙容器回收占多少百分比？"],["薛部長富盛：向陳委員報告，有關你剛剛提到的問題，紙容器現在的比率是百分之十五點多，我們基本上現在要做的就是源頭管理，事實上，我們的召委也特別關心這一塊……"],["陳委員菁徽：有！"],["薛部長富盛：我們現在已經在進行，要從源頭就要來管控。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，所以你也發現你們的生產數還有末端的處理數是不是有很大的落差？"],["薛部長富盛：是，落差很大。"],["陳委員菁徽：大概5萬噸左右嘛！"],["薛部長富盛：是，讓我們的回收基金短少。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們來看看你的源頭管理做的如何，部長，你自己出去可能會自帶飲料杯，但是便當盒等等的，請問你有去掃過上面印的QR Code嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：假如沒有QR Code，基本上大概就是所謂的一般地下工廠所生產的啦！"],["陳委員菁徽：沒有QR Code的是不是？"],["薛部長富盛：對，沒有QR Code的，現在環境部要求，只要是合格、合法的廠商，他們都一定會有一個QR Code。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，你自己有沒有拿來掃掃看？"],["薛部長富盛：我是沒有掃掃看，但是我吃的便當，我看上面的確都有QR Code。"],["陳委員菁徽：我告訴你掃了以後是長什麼樣子，我早上有時候人家會送飲料，星巴克或是麥當勞冰旋風等等，上面都有一個QR Code，你們的QR Code掃出來就是螢幕上這個樣子耶，所有的QR Code掃出來是一模一樣，就是說這個業者是來自資源循環署登記列管的業者，麻煩部長去掃掃看你們自己的Code，跟農業部做出來的Code，農業部做出來的Code掃下去會發現是哪邊生產、什麼時候生產，還有這個廠商同時還做了哪些農產品，全部都列得一清二楚喔，可是你們的QR Code就只有這樣子，說實在的，壞人一定走在我們前面啦，我相信現在一定有地下業者直接整個截圖貼到不管是他的便當盒還是什麼就可以了，因為你的QR Code掃下去沒有任何的差別。"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員，我是不是可以請副署長來說明得更詳細一點？可能應該有比這個更詳盡的資料。"],["陳委員菁徽：好。"],["許副署長智倫：跟委員報告，這個Code，有時候我們是顧慮到民眾用餐可能沒有那麼方便，他是掃有沒有標示而已，但是詳細的廠家、生產等等資料，那個是給我們稽查人員，所以我們在查的時候，最近幾年用這些的方法也查到2億多的短漏在追繳。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你們內部的資料有，只是我們民眾看不到，但說實在的，其實你們也可以去訪問一下，他去買便當，通常肚子很餓，或是買飲料，他有東西吃就好了，他不會去管這個Code我還蠻在意農產品，我頂多會去管這個農產品是不是從品質優良的廠家提供的，但是你去買便當的時候，你真的不會很在意這個盒子是不是環境部認證過的QR Code，所以也許這個方法你們要再檢討一下，是不是真的可以有效來控制產量跟回收量的落差。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝陳委員的建議，我請循環署來思考一下QR Code的內容是不是應該要更多、更豐富。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，要更具體一點，或是讓它有誘因。"],["薛部長富盛：好。"],["陳委員菁徽：因為你這樣子是在懲罰很乖的人，很乖的人、合法的廠商，他可能會覺得人家就是複製貼上就可以做的跟我看起來一模一樣，民眾掃起來也是一樣，他根本也不可能會去檢舉啊！"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：最後也想請教一下部長，你沒有掃過QR Code的話，你自己有騎過電動機車或是開電動車嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我坐過電動車，但是沒有開過電動車，買不起。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，因為你們有一個2040運具電動化的目標……"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：你知道嗎，按照目前的進度，除了108年我們有補助電動機車，當時的數量曾經暴增，之後逐年遞減，所以我們如果以每年9萬台、8萬台、7萬台這樣的速度算下去，你猜還要多久我們才可以運具電動化？"],["薛部長富盛：給陳委員報告，基本上，我們現在的方向……"],["陳委員菁徽：調整了？"],["薛部長富盛：交通部的整個政策應該是鼓勵大眾搭乘公共運輸，早期的確有採取所謂的汰舊換新，不管是燃油車舊的換新的，或是燃油車換成電動車都鼓勵，可是這樣的話就會造成使用機車的人數還是沒有辦法降下來，臺灣的機車的確……"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，我們來看，使用機車的成長幅度，你好像沒有很具體的作法可以讓使用機車的人降下來，因為我們除了108年電車有稍微增長，110、111、112年購買汽油機車的還是遠高過購買電動機車的。"],["薛部長富盛：對，當然價錢也是一個因素，所以現在這個是蠻矛盾的，就是當我們鼓勵他，即使是機車，由燃油車換成電動車，這樣子我們機車的數目還是不會減少，它的供應數……"],["陳委員菁徽：最後建議一下，您剛剛提到價錢，所以現在需要置換機車的人，僅有不到三成願意買電動車，因為電動車每年花的錢實在是太多了。"],["薛部長富盛：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你可能要仔細想一下，如果大家沒有辦法在短期內改變生活習慣去搭乘大眾交通工具，包括電動公車等等的，你要如何用你的補貼去讓民眾有感，讓民眾在換車的時候，可以考慮更換為電動車，好嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：好，我們會好好思考一下，這是一個大哉問。"],["陳委員菁徽：對。謝謝部長。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員。接下來請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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code嗎?"},{"start":331.423,"end":332.444,"text":"我告訴你掃了以後長什麼樣子齁"},{"start":359.224,"end":371.194,"text":"這個我早上不管是有時候人家會送飲料星巴克或是這個麥當勞冰旋風等等它上面都有一個QR code你們的QR code啊掃出來就是這個樣子欸"},{"start":374.142,"end":392.094,"text":"所有的QR Code掃出來是一模一樣就是說這個業者是來自循環署登記列管的業者你麻煩部長你去掃掃看你們自己的Code跟農業部做出來的Code農業部做出來的Code你掃下去你會發現他是哪邊生產什麼時候生產還有這一家"},{"start":395.436,"end":417.584,"text":"這個廠商他還有同時做了哪些農產品全部都列的一清二楚喔可是你們的QR Code就只有這樣子說實在的壞人一定走在我們前面啦我相信現在一定有地下業者他直接整個截圖貼上去他的不管是他的便當盒還是什麼就可以了因為你的掃下去沒有任何的差別"},{"start":419.133,"end":423.282,"text":"陳委員 我是不是可以請我們副署長來說明更詳細一點可能應該有比這個更詳細的資料"},{"start":427.712,"end":448.593,"text":"跟委員報告,那這個扣因為有時候我們是顧慮到民眾用餐可能沒有那麼方便,它是少有沒有標示而已但是詳細的廠家生產等等的資料,那個是給我們去查了所以我們在查的時候,最近幾年用這些的方法也查到2億多的短路在追究對,所以你們內部的資料有,只是我們民眾看不到?"},{"start":449.514,"end":460.228,"text":"但說實在的其實你們也可以去訪問一下他去買便當通常肚子很餓或是買飲料他有東西吃就好了他怎麼他不會去管這個我頂多我還蠻在意農產品我會去管這個農產品是不是從品質優良的廠家提供的"},{"start":467.577,"end":482.053,"text":"但是你去買便當的時候你真的不會很在意這個盒子是不是環境部認證過的QR code所以也許這個方法你們要再檢討一下是不是真的可以有效來控制產量跟回收量的落差"},{"start":482.614,"end":507.654,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員的建議我請我們喜歡署來思考一下QR Code內容是不是應該要更對要更具體一點或是讓他有誘因啊因為你這樣子在懲罰很乖的人很乖的人他合法的廠商他可能會覺得欸人家就是copy複製貼上就可以做的跟我看起來一模一樣民眾掃起來也是一樣他根本也不可能會去檢舉啊是"},{"start":509.376,"end":513.823,"text":"最後也想請教一下部長那你沒有掃過QR Code的話你自己有騎過電動機車或是開電動車嗎?"},{"start":517.955,"end":521.458,"text":"我做過電動車啦但是沒有開過電動車買不起因為你們有一個2040運具電動化的這樣子的目標你知道嗎按照目前的進度啦除了108年我們有補助電動機車當時曾經暴增之後呢"},{"start":539.594,"end":554.523,"text":"逐年遞減,所以我們如果以每年9萬台、8萬台、7萬台這樣子的速度算下去,你猜還要多久我們才可以運具電動化?給陳委員報告,基本上我們現在的方向"},{"start":555.363,"end":582.211,"text":"整個政策跟交通部應該是鼓勵大眾搭乘公共運輸那早期的確有採取所謂的太舊換新只要你不管是燃油車舊的換新的或者說燃油車換成電動車都鼓勵可是這樣子的話就會造成事實上這些使用機車的人數還是沒有辦法降下來"},{"start":583.913,"end":596.95,"text":"我們來看使用機車的成長幅度你好像沒有很具體的做法可以讓使用機車的人降下來因為我們除了108年電車有稍微增長"},{"start":604.776,"end":620.539,"text":"110、111、112購買汽油機車的是遠高過購買電動機車的對 那個當然是價錢也是一個因素那另外就是假如說所以現在這個是蠻矛盾的就是當我們鼓勵他即使是機車有燃油車換成電動車那這樣子我們機車的數目還是不會減少"},{"start":625,"end":653.78,"text":"好最後啦建議一下看一下對您剛提到價錢所以呢僅有不到三成他現在需要置換機車的人他會願意買電動車因為他每年花的錢實在是太多了所以你可能要仔細去想一下如果大家沒有辦法在短期內改變他的生活習慣去搭乘大眾的交通的電動公車等等的你要如何用你的補貼去讓人家有感而他在"},{"start":654.721,"end":655.161,"text":"陳菁徽委員"}]}},{"id":"151497","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151497","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3369bc39d4c849543d797e999b50eca937cdcb4691eb09bf4e206b889c0fce998ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:21:12 - 09:29:52","影片長度":"00:08:40","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計8案。\n二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計1案。\n三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。\n四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關不當黨產處理委員會預算凍結書面報告案計2案。）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-13"},"duration":520,"end_time":"2024-04-22T09:29:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T09:21:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":121,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時21分）我先請李孟諺秘書長。"],["主席：好，請秘書長，謝謝。"],["張委員宏陸：我不知道秘書長在前一陣子有沒有看到這個新聞報導，就有人說我們國家兒童未來館的興建，就是選舉才浮上來的「選舉浮館」，我不知道秘書長有沒有看到這個新聞？"],["李秘書長孟諺：對，我看到有一些外界的誤解。"],["張委員宏陸：秘書長，其實這一個早就核定了，總經費達165億，我如果沒有記錯的話，我們蘇貞昌院長也親自主持了十幾場的籌備會議，這個進度目前是如何？能不能請秘書長大概說一下？我知道細部你一定不瞭解，但這是不是我們積極在推動的一個政策？"],["李秘書長孟諺：是，我想這已經是院正式核定的計畫，也列為重要的、列管推動的計畫，所以這個是既定的政策，而且不會改變。"],["張委員宏陸：現在的執行進度有沒有落後？"],["李秘書長孟諺：它是這樣，本來是要考慮整個用統包的方式來招標，文化部史哲部長評估起來，覺得因為整個未來館的展示科技日新月異，所以他後來調整一下方式，就是先招商，針對建築師設計團隊先來招標，目前已經遴選出非常優秀的建築團隊，也把建築的意象等等對外公開，並且在板橋車站這邊有做相關的展示，細設完成之後，經過審議就會來辦理工程的招標，所以目前都照進度在進行。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊！其實就我們所瞭解也都是有在做啦，不過，秘書長，你可能回去也要跟文化部說一下，我們現在都知道，國家兒童未來館現在只是籌備處，其實國家漫畫博物館跟鐵道博物館都有專屬的網頁，所以大家都會知道進度，我的意思不是說我們還要再成立一個新的網頁，其實不需要，但文化部應該在他們的網頁上，這是一個165億的重大建設，有列管的，文化部是不是應該適時放在他們的網頁上，進度到哪裡要更新、要讓大家知道？我覺得如果這樣做的話，問題就沒有了，是不是？"],["李秘書長孟諺：我們來對文化部做要求。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊！我一直認為這其實是一個很簡單的事情，它也不用再成立一個新的網頁，文化部本身自己部裡面的網頁就可以來做這件事，好不好？"],["李秘書長孟諺：是。"],["張委員宏陸：秘書長，可以啦？"],["李秘書長孟諺：可以，這個我們來處理。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝，秘書長請回，我請林主委。"],["林主任委員峯正：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：主委，不當黨產其實是蠻辛苦，做了很多啦，不過我這邊有一個要請教一下，雖然有很多是法令、程序上的問題，但針對有收回來的，我們有沒有儘快想辦法把它活用？"],["林主任委員峯正：因為按照促轉條例的規定，黨產收回之後在行政院成立促轉基金，促轉基金現在是國發會來主管，所以相關資金的運用，由國發會來召集，他們來處理。"],["張委員宏陸：資金是一件事，如果是有不動產或者……"],["林主任委員峯正：一樣，所有的財產都由促轉基金。"],["張委員宏陸：都是他們嘛？"],["林主任委員峯正：對，我們只負責收，至於怎麼運用，那個是促轉基金要安排。"],["張委員宏陸：但是一般人會認為，反正你收回來，空在那裡，大家第一個是不是會覺得……"],["林主任委員峯正：對，我們也知道會有這個問題，所以我們也是希望，因為促轉基金有個管理委員會，我們有1席委員，我們會去表達我們的意見，當然最後還是要由委員會來決定。"],["張委員宏陸：我覺得你們的意見非常重要，你們在這邊有沒有據理力爭說既然你們收回來了，如果在那邊不使用，其實讓全國的民眾、人民會有另外一種不好的觀感？你收回來結果放在那邊養蚊子或者讓它壞，很多建築物，你不用的話，時間久了就壞掉，對不對？"],["林主任委員峯正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：到時候如果壞掉的話，反而會被罵，會不會啊？主委，你會不會擔心這個？"],["林主任委員峯正：我也會擔心啊，但是我們會積極的去表達我們的意見，希望促轉基金能夠積極活用相關的資產，包括現金、包括收回來的不動產。當然這還牽涉到另外一個問題，就是大部分的訴訟還沒有確定，所以如果以資產、不動產來說，你說要大規模去更動它，恐怕現階段是有一點困難，但是讓它能夠維繫它的狀態應該是必要的。"],["張委員宏陸：我當然知道啦，這個很複雜，有的財產收回來是國有的，全部都是國有的，有的是中央主管機關，有的是地方政府。"],["林主任委員峯正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：如果是中央主管機關的話，要配合應該是比較好配合，如果是地方政府，可能是不好配合，會不會有這種情況？"],["林主任委員峯正：譬如金山青年活動中心就有類似的狀況。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我舉一個例子，一樣是在新北，一個在板橋的放送所，你應該知道嘛？"],["林主任委員峯正：是。"],["張委員宏陸：放送所就是中央政府……"],["林主任委員峯正：其實這個放送所是在板橋，那原來是中廣的一個電臺……"],["張委員宏陸：對，沒錯啊！"],["林主任委員峯正：這個是之前交通部打官司，所以它不是透過我們這邊去收回來，所以它就不在促轉基金裡面，反而是在交通部……"],["張委員宏陸：對啊！我知道、我知道。我現在是要舉一個例子，因為你剛說到金山，我的意思是說放送所，你看現在有活用，大家都覺得，哇！這個非常好。同樣的在新北，主委，你剛說的是金山活動中心，當然土地是新北市政府的，對不對？"],["林主任委員峯正：對。"],["張委員宏陸：所以現在就丟在那邊，也不能用也不做什麼，所有地方的里長，大家會覺得好好的東西放在那邊，至少也可以給我們金山的人去用或什麼的，聲音就出來了，對不對？我個人也覺得如果不去協調、不去處理，其實好好的東西放在那邊是非常可惜的，不知道主委你的看法？"],["林主任委員峯正：因為在收的時候，新北市政府就表達說希望要整體的規劃利用，因為土地是新北市政府的，建物是國產署在管，所以應該是雙方要去協調，但那個時候當然也鬧出一些問題，後來這個事情據我所知，好像就變得沒有什麼進度，我也不希望看到就像委員說的，外界看起來你這個政府是整體的，怎麼可以丟在那裡？我想我們也會來注意這件事。"],["張委員宏陸：一個很重要的問題，我剛剛講的放送所是一個很好的例子，大家都看到，人家不會管你是什麼單位，民眾也不知道，對不對？其實我覺得如果積極協調，應該可以解決，不然我跟你講，我如果是新北市政府，我就是故意給你放在那邊，我要整體規劃，可能規劃30年還沒規劃出來，結果你們每天會被罵，中央政府也每天會被罵。"],["林主任委員峯正：謝謝委員提醒，這個我們也有注意到，我們會盡力。"],["張委員宏陸：好不好？"],["林主任委員峯正：是，謝謝。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸委員的質詢。","現在請第2位黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":52,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-13","speakers":["吳琪銘","張宏陸","黃捷","蘇巧慧","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃建賓","丁學忠","高金素梅","張智倫","李柏毅","徐欣瑩","許宇甄","黃國昌","麥玉珍","莊瑞雄","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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Projects"},{"start":149.835,"end":162.586,"text":"這個像啊這個我們現在都知道國家兒童未來館他現在只是籌備處啦齁那其實啊國家漫畫博物館跟鐵道博物館他們都有專屬的網頁"},{"start":165.288,"end":193.397,"text":"所以進度大家都會知道我的意思不是說我們還要再成立一個新的網頁其實不需要但文化部應該在他們的文化部的網頁上這個是這麼一個重大的一個建設165億有列管的文化部是不是應該適時的在他們文化部的網頁上這個進度到哪裡要更新要讓大家知道我覺得如果這樣做的話問題就沒有了啦是不是"},{"start":196.008,"end":219.914,"text":"這個我們來對文化部來做這個要求對啊我一直認為這個其實一個很簡單的事情他也不用再成立一個新的網頁文化部他本身自己部裡面的網頁就可以來做這件事了好不好好可以啦可以這我們來處理好謝謝那MISTER 您請回我請那個林主委"},{"start":228.126,"end":246.46,"text":"主委其實我們這個不當黨產其實是蠻辛苦做了很多不過我這邊有一個要請教一下雖然有很多是法令程序上的問題但我們有的收回來的我們有沒有盡快想辦法把它活用"},{"start":248.198,"end":261.625,"text":"按照促轉條約的規定,黨產收回之後在行政院成立了促轉基金。促轉基金現在是國發會來主管,所以相關資金的運用由國發會來召集他們來處理。"},{"start":263.004,"end":265.466,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":284.603,"end":296.031,"text":"對我們也知道會有這個問題所以我們也是希望我們也會因為那個出產基金有個管理的委員會我們也有一席的委員我們會去表達我們的意見那當然還是要那個委員會來決定"},{"start":297.319,"end":314.408,"text":"我覺得你們的意見非常重要欸你們在這邊有沒有據理力爭說我們既然收回來了你收回來如果在那邊不使用其實讓全國的民眾人民啊會有另外一種不好的觀感啊你你收回來結果放在那邊養蚊子啊或者讓他壞"},{"start":315.569,"end":316.91,"text":"三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。��"},{"start":337.379,"end":340.421,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":356.131,"end":378.152,"text":"我當然知道啦齁啊這個很複雜啦齁有的財產收回來是國有的是齁全部都是國有的那有的是中央主管機關有的是地方政府是那如果是中央主管機關的話要配合應該是比較好配合啊如果是地方政府可能是不好配合會不會有這種情況譬如說金山青龍紅中心就有類似的狀況齁"},{"start":380.535,"end":397.915,"text":"對我現在就我舉一個齁一樣齁是在新北一個在板橋的這個我們的這個放送所你應該知道嘛齁啊放送所這個是啊中央政府齁其實這個放送所是在板橋那個那個原來是中廣的一個電台沒錯啊那這個是之前交通部"},{"start":398.476,"end":400.598,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":416.329,"end":438.938,"text":"同樣的在新北主委你剛說的是金山活動中心當然土地是新北市政府的所以現在丟在那邊也不能用也不什麼然後地方所有的地方的里長或什麼大家會覺得你好好的東西放在那邊至少也可以給我們金山的人去用或什麼的聲音就出來"},{"start":440.959,"end":461.67,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon 因為在收回來在收的時候新北市政府就表達說希望要整體的規劃利用因為土地是新北市政府然後建物是國產署在管"},{"start":462.87,"end":465.692,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。namon"},{"start":483.22,"end":485.682,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。ittee"},{"start":515.426,"end":520.153,"text":"二、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關行政院預算凍結書面報告案計2案。 INTERVIEWER四"}]}},{"id":"151496","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151496","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c33687d3ca4a45f396507dee175bc8e0be1adcb4691eb09bf4e236b710c635f0fc7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"09:25:37 - 09:29:17","影片長度":"00:03:40","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查「娛樂稅法」6案：\n(一)\t本院委員徐富癸等17人、委員陳秀寳等18人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人分別擬具「娛樂稅法第二條及第五條條文修正草案」等4案。【本院委員王世堅等23人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n(二)\t本院委員黃捷等19人、委員羅明才等16人分別擬廢止「娛樂稅法」等2案。【本院委員羅明才等16人提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n二、審查「保險法」4案：\n(一)\t本院委員羅明才等17人擬具「保險法第一百四十六條之四條文修正草案」案。\n(二)\t本院台灣民眾黨黨團、委員蔡易餘等19人、委員王鴻薇等16人分別擬具「保險法第一百七十七條條文修正草案」等3案。【本院台灣民眾黨黨團提案須經各黨團簽署不復議同意書】\n三、審查人民請願案有關「娛樂稅法」3案。\n【4月22日及24日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-10"},"duration":220,"end_time":"2024-04-22T09:29:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T09:25:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":28.144718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.414718750000002,"end":29.039093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.528468750000002,"end":32.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.24096875,"end":34.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.64159375,"end":36.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.00409375,"end":37.830968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.556593750000005,"end":41.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.150968750000004,"end":43.095968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.63596875,"end":52.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.461593750000006,"end":55.212218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.49909375,"end":56.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.494718750000004,"end":59.346593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.072218750000005,"end":62.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.97471875,"end":69.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.82596875,"end":91.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.79721875,"end":104.92596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.12846875000001,"end":209.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.78721875000002,"end":212.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.95096875000002,"end":217.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.33034375000003,"end":218.88284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.229,"end":21.863,"text":"我們的官員還有我們各位委員今天我主要是提出保險法第177條的條文修正案這個主要是要保障我們保險從業人員他們的權益長期以來其實大家也知道在保險從業人員他們的職場環境事實上他們是處於一個極為弱勢的那麼"},{"start":30.069,"end":39.257,"text":"這幾十年來我們的保險業的從業人員他們世上很多都是假承攬徵僱傭的一個"},{"start":42.579,"end":59.076,"text":"關禮方式。而且呢,那事實上在很多他們的相關的合約內容裏面也有很多的不平等條款對於我們的保險從業人員保險業務員非常非常的不公平"},{"start":60.117,"end":83.038,"text":"那麼我們的工會事實上也一直希望在立法院能夠為他們的權益做一些修正。那事實上早在這一屆的立法院之前,包含跨黨派的立法委員都提出相同的修正案。但是非常可惜的,"},{"start":83.638,"end":90.922,"text":"因為金管會一直都拒絕一直態度消極而沒有辦法完成修法我們希望能夠透過我們金融機構的主管機關跟勞動部共同的努力下可以讓我們廣大的保險業務員"},{"start":105.231,"end":126.818,"text":"他們的一個就業的環境不要因此而被剝削不要因此而得到不公平的待遇所以在這一次我們也可以看到其實除了我之外我也看到是跨黨派的委員也都提出相關的修法"},{"start":127.478,"end":151.7,"text":"所以在這邊還是希望我們的金管會能夠從善如流而不是還是用過去的方式用一個拒絕、不配合的一個態度我看到這次又是用這樣的方式如果金管會認為他只是主管保險公司跟消費者之間的關係但是"},{"start":154.122,"end":169.959,"text":"保險業務員的管理規則也是你金管會在定的啊所以金管會身為主管機關不要把這些保險業務員他們應該得到合理的待遇"},{"start":170.62,"end":170.86,"text":"提案須經各黨團簽署"},{"start":188.519,"end":208.807,"text":"我衷心希望在我們這次委員會能夠讓保險法第177條的條文修正能夠過去都未盡其功我希望這次我們能夠成功的來幫我們的廣大的保險業務員去爭取到他們合理的權益以上謝謝好謝謝王宏威王委員"},{"start":215.077,"end":218.71,"text":"接著請財政部莊部長回應委員提案的內容"}]}},{"id":"151495","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151495","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3361efadedaa3b7c0bcc59641e9d13ec658dcb4691eb09bf4e246decef9d92b3ed25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"09:20:40 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09:24:40","影片長度":"00:04:00","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-15"},"duration":240,"end_time":"2024-04-22T09:24:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T09:20:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.6634687500000003,"end":5.5153437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.08909375,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.90534375,"end":24.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.398468750000003,"end":33.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.494093750000005,"end":49.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.41971875,"end":54.267218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.14471875,"end":60.797843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.77659375,"end":74.53409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.55909375,"end":80.23784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.82846875,"end":88.05096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.81034375,"end":90.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.05471875,"end":92.06721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.45096875,"end":101.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.68596875,"end":138.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.83221875,"end":138.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.03034375000001,"end":154.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.75346875,"end":164.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.91221875000002,"end":180.76221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.02784375000002,"end":185.31846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.94284375,"end":203.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.25221875000003,"end":205.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.53034375000001,"end":240.07784375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.691,"end":18.677,"text":"我想針對上個禮拜我們召開委員會議然後中間從兩點半開始主席宣布會議休息之後一直空轉三個小時直到五點半然後再通過會議動議"},{"start":20.973,"end":47.639,"text":"那麼這是我第一次看到立法院竟然在委員會上面開會可以透過這樣的意識手段然後來杯葛其他委員所提出來的動議我不知道這是不是一個正常的狀態但至少我認為這不是一個正常的狀態即便是立法院意識規則裡面由給主席有這樣的權利可以鑿定休息時間但是主席不能夠自議濫權"},{"start":50.495,"end":60.237,"text":"案（三）委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案．一）民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案．一）民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案．一）民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正草案．民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正草案．民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正草案．民進黨黨黨團擬具:「"},{"start":77.142,"end":91.8,"text":"剛剛吳士堯委員說我們可以修立法院議事規則啊這我也同意啊我們還有其他的各委員會的組織法裡面的這個相關規定都可以修啊看看民進黨委員賴瑞隆他的提案"},{"start":93.456,"end":120.14,"text":"他提了立法院各委員會組織法第四條、第九條、二十二條的條文修正草案的這個對照表在第四條裡面他有說召集委員因故無法主持會議時應指定該委員會一人代理會議主席未指定時由該委員會互退一人為臨時主席這是賴委員他所提出的立法院各委員會組織法第四條修正案"},{"start":120.72,"end":137.546,"text":"在這個條文說明裏面他有說依照現行的委員會議事慣例如果召集委員應固無法主持會議會議前則由指定同委員會委員代理會議主席如果於會議中可臨時指定暫待主持會議以避免會議中斷"},{"start":139.187,"end":164.309,"text":"那麼為立法院各委員會會議曾發生過召集委員因故或無故未主持會議,亦不指定代理主席,導致議事中斷,浪費寶貴的委員會議時間,降低議事效率,引發民眾不滿。所以爭定在召委未指定代理主席時,得由委員會委員互推臨時主席,必使會議如期順利進行。"},{"start":165.97,"end":180.526,"text":"我沒有想到賴委員還真的是料事如神竟然可以預測到我們的中嘉賓召委在上星期就直接宣布會議休息然後就審影"},{"start":182.379,"end":202.977,"text":"這麼重要的案子不知道為什麼中嘉賓委員昭偉沒有把他排入到我們這次的這個立法院的相關的這個組織法的病案審查那麼這個部分就可以顯現其實民進黨根本沒有想要進行國會內部改革我非常支持"},{"start":206.527,"end":208.128,"text":"案。我希望在沒有修正委員會組織法的條文之前,其實透過現在的解釋就可以約束主席的會議的主持權利。這是很重要,不要讓民眾認為說我們立法"},{"start":229.488,"end":231.551,"text":"案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"151494","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151494","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3360b3b33004edec5fec59641e9d13ec658dcb4691eb09bf4e22f3f07a615f4351a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:16:00 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面一次提四十次所以要講意識規則我們就用意識規則意識規則有漏洞就把它補起來以上 謝謝羅委員的這個還是一個會議詢問的性質那主席在這邊說明一下"},{"start":193.547,"end":206.718,"text":"在議事規則當中,散會動議是讓會議它無法再進行討論。那通常我們會提停止討論動議。那麼停止討論動議之後就要進行處理。但是有時候為了不讓停止討論動議處理,要有最優先的方式來處理,不讓會議進行下去。"}]}},{"id":"151493","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151493","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c33667d205d7c12e12afc59641e9d13ec658dcb4691eb09bf4e26a72962f41d473255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"09:04:01 - 09:07:54","影片長度":"00:03:53","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-15"},"duration":233,"end_time":"2024-04-22T09:07:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T09:04:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":27.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.73971875,"end":74.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.80409375,"end":130.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.50846875000002,"end":173.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.67471875,"end":231.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.92721875,"end":231.97784375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":15.313,"text":"案．一）立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．一）立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．一．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．一．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．一．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．一．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．一．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．一．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．一．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．一．立法院組織法部分條"},{"start":27.876,"end":31.679,"text":"我們要回應社會對於國會改革的期待是什麼?社會絕對希望能夠看到在台灣最高民意的殿堂每一位立法委員反映民意每一天都能夠為民喉舌所以來提升立法院組織法當中民主進步黨提出了六個條文首先要提升本身的問政職能"},{"start":55.654,"end":69.079,"text":"案﹚立法院組織法包括法制局及預算中心的專業性能夠更為精進強化,所以民進黨的版本是能夠對於人事的聘任方式來予以鬆綁,我們可以廣納民間的專業人力來協助國會的問政專業。"},{"start":75.061,"end":91.48,"text":"厲（二（民主進步黨也提出要因應資訊安全管理法十一條的規定公務機關都應當設有資訊資通安全長而立法院到目前是付之缺儒的所以民進黨增設了立法院組織法的條文要求立法院"},{"start":94.684,"end":103.474,"text":"案,因比照其他部會來新增資通安全處而且指派適當人選來出任資通安全長來建構國會的資訊安全防火牆以及倡議"},{"start":109.821,"end":111.922,"text":"也討論了數十年的國會簽建或擴建案。這是台灣能夠深化民主問政的效能,也作為國會外交的重要場域。我們應當讓國會擴建或簽建案與修法的部分一併完備,來推上一把。"},{"start":130.726,"end":159.785,"text":"另外在立法委員行為法的部分民主進步黨也提出了兩個條文的修正內容非常的簡要明晰也就是杜絕MeToo我們立法院總是修法要求別人落實性騷、反歧視的相關作為但是立法院的內部卻從來沒有檢討自身所以民進黨的立法委員行為法第七條至一及三十條都針對性騷以及歧視行為的防治與隱瞞"},{"start":160.626,"end":165.388,"text":"案。最後一項議案是立法院的議事規則民進黨修正了三個條文主要是為了確保秘密會議的內容不對外宣洩也不對外來轉述來流出所以我們明定對於立法委員"},{"start":178.153,"end":181.916,"text":"對於列席人員甚至對於會場的員工他可以攜帶入場的產品是什麼那原則上我們都是明定明列禁止攜帶任何通訊產品並應簽據保密切結書才得入場而至於超入轉述的相關責任的課則我們也在立法院議事規則裡頭更為升級強化"},{"start":204.89,"end":228.594,"text":"所以簡要的跟大家報告今天的立法院組織法立法委員行為法立法院的議事規則民主進步黨提出來的諸多的條文都是正向的來提升立法院的自我克責也是回應社會期待國會更自律國會更進步的重要修法希望朝野大家能夠理性專業的對話完成今天的審議謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151492","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151492","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c33686cb0b0799d6eeaf7dee175bc8e0be1adcb4691eb09bf4e2336af6a97fec288a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"09:20:17 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這個好不容易每年可以獲得那麼多的資金那麼多的保障那當然要支持啊可是本席從台灣年輕人未來發展來思考的時候想想看如果把6兆的資金可以留在台灣投資台灣"},{"start":176.633,"end":199.526,"text":"未來的台灣年輕人會做怎麼樣一個環境的影響具體的改變所以本席也在這裡奉勸少部分的人不要每次都是思考現實的利益為什麼不想想把這個資金匯回台灣以後循序漸進的來做"},{"start":201.424,"end":217.323,"text":"來多多做一點有利台灣發展的公共建設每次都講說台灣沒有投資機會真的沒有嗎?如果沒有的話台積電就不會有75%以上都是外資在投資"},{"start":219.945,"end":241.922,"text":"時過境遷啊想想看如果10年前146條就修正的時候台積電那時候才兩三百塊保險公司不能買嗎買了反而賺大錢我不是說主管機關講的一定不對但是本席上過很多次的當在幾年前"},{"start":245.25,"end":269.369,"text":"我問中央銀行總裁楊金榮楊總裁我說全世界都在重視比特幣央行要不要多少投資一點央行給大家的答覆說那是高風險千萬不要上當千萬不要去買結果那時候很多年輕人他說央行總裁說不能買通通沒有買那時候一個比特幣是大概6000塊美金現在漲到美金6萬以上"},{"start":274.224,"end":298.453,"text":"不是誰講的一定對啦大家多多思考看看希望146條的精神還是要把錢留在台灣投資台灣照顧年輕人讓年輕人長期以來的薪資不斷低薪資的情況可以獲得改善謝謝謝謝羅昭偉來繼續來請黃宏威黃委員"},{"start":305.418,"end":309.326,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"151491","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151491","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c336fb44e2bcfcc38ed4cff82116bdf94ca8dcb4691eb09bf4e2ad4d19330d4f164e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:10:21 - 09:20:47","影片長度":"00:10:26","會議時間":"2024-04-22T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就「噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-22","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":626,"end_time":"2024-04-22T09:20:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-22T09:10:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":173,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時10分）謝謝主席，有請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長富盛：陳委員早。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早安。部長，國人在深夜熟睡的時刻對於噪音車或爆音車，不論它是來自二輪的機車或四輪的汽車，只要排氣管是發出很巨大的排氣聲音，我覺得都是沒有辦法接受，甚至非常的厭惡，我覺得重點不在於他的改裝，而是他改裝之後所發出的聲音，即高分貝噪音，重點在這個地方。"],["薛部長富盛：是，沒錯。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以去年行政院確實找了交通部跟環境部一起處理車輛改裝排氣的噪音處理，整個大方向是抓吵不抓改，我覺得這是對的，就是改裝是可以接受，但是改裝之後噪音的排放量要有一定的規範。"],["薛部長富盛：是，認同。"],["陳委員昭姿：環境部也訂定了所謂的機動車輛替換用消音系統認證管理規範，剛剛部長也有報告，然而在去年12月27號的新聞稿，剛剛部長也有提到源頭管理，源頭管理是解決機車改裝排氣管這個部分，但這個標準是不一致的，我想請教部長，機動車輛跟機車是一樣的嗎？在法律上的規範，機動車輛是等於機車嗎？為什麼在新聞稿裡面只談到機車的部分？"],["薛部長富盛：據我所瞭解，機動車包括汽車跟摩托車，事實上對環境部以及一般民眾而言，他在乎的是噪音的部分，不管它產生是來自四輪或是兩輪，所以那個才是重點。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個新聞稿只強調機車、從源頭解決機車的問題，我們會覺得你只管機車。"],["薛部長富盛：那可能在用詞上並沒有那麼精準。"],["陳委員昭姿：環境部的機動車輛車型噪音及噪音抽驗檢驗處理辦法第二條第一款定義得很清楚，機動車輛指的就是凡是使用燃油引擎或是電動馬達的汽車跟機車都包含在裡面，也就是說不只是機車而已，但環境部現在好像把自己限縮在……我今天看報告沒有談到這麼仔細，所以我也再確認一下。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員昭姿：只處理機車排氣管改裝的檢驗合格，但是並沒有處理汽車的部分，那為什麼汽車排氣管改裝沒有列入這個查核管理機制呢？我可不可以瞭解一下原因？"],["薛部長富盛：我們請張司長回答一下比較技術面的，好不好？"],["陳委員昭姿：好，沒問題。"],["張司長順欽：跟委員報告，主要我們當時跟交通部在討論的過程裡面，目前第一個問題機車是比較多，汽車當然也是有，但是汽車這部分目前交通部還沒有打算……改裝登記還沒有開始實施。"],["陳委員昭姿：還沒有打算喔？"],["張司長順欽：不是，現在有兩件事情，一個是改裝要不要登記，這是一件事情，但是就環境部這邊來講，只要噪音超過標準的，不管是機車或者汽車都會開罰，這是兩件事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：不是啦！重點是因為你的法規上是講機動車輛，它確實包含汽車嘛！但是你現在的執法重點在於機車，沒有包括汽車的部分，我可以接受逐步的處理，但是你說機車量比較多，所以暫時不處理汽車，這還是要請你們再思考。","部長，我現在放一段影片，請你瞭解一下大致是哪一種車子發出的噪音。","（播放影片）"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你覺得這是什麼車子？哪一種車型？"],["薛部長富盛：以我的經驗來看，好像汽車跟機車都會有這種。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以是？"],["薛部長富盛：都有可能。"],["陳委員昭姿：這個是單選題，部長，就是汽車啊！"],["薛部長富盛：OK，當然這一題裡面看起來是汽車，但是以我的經驗來看，好像有一種摩托車的加速聲音也是……"],["陳委員昭姿：主要你的法規也含，但我們的重點在噪音嘛！所以對於這種爆音車輛，不管是來自汽車或機車，國人都一定同意用力抓、用重法。"],["薛部長富盛：認同。"],["陳委員昭姿：所以你剛剛也提到說要加重罰則，所以即便改裝是合法的，但是改裝之後所發出的噪音，我想應該要有一個合格檢驗機制，就是不分機車或汽車，所以現在是有點雙重標準，那部長是否同意對於汽車也應該考慮要有同樣機制的管理，譬如有排氣管改裝之後檢驗合格的機制，有在規劃嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我認同，事實上，應該……"],["陳委員昭姿：其實汽車的量不會少於機車啦！"],["薛部長富盛：跟陳委員報告，我的理解是，我們先把造成問題的最大部分解決，然後接下來是其他的部分，一般來講關於汽車，剛剛所看到的，一定是在高速公路或者在比較寬敞的道路，四輪的汽車才比較會造成這種噪音。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我們剛剛在討論，你剛剛說可以科技執法。"],["薛部長富盛：對，要用科技執法才有可能，否則的話……"],["陳委員昭姿：因為過去機車有所謂的一年緩衝期嘛？就是他改裝之後一年內，政府……"],["薛部長富盛：有，我們也是一年緩衝期，今年是緩衝期，就是登記……"],["陳委員昭姿：就是機車的既有機制是OK的，但是現在對於汽車的部分有沒有這種規劃跟想法呢？"],["薛部長富盛：我覺得我們可以來做，假如說……"],["陳委員昭姿：管不管？就是要不要管？"],["張司長順欽：跟委員報告，我們管是管，他只要噪音超標，抓到還是都會開單，這個不分機車或汽車，這沒有分。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是我們知道很多源頭就是來自排氣管的改裝，如果你現在給他一個檢驗的機制，對不對？剛剛部長報告都從源頭管理，但你去抓到後端的管理啦！"],["張司長順欽：改裝後要不要去登錄，這個交通部門會來處理，這邊如果納入登錄的話，我們測驗的東西會跟著上來。"],["薛部長富盛：是不是可以請交通部來回答有沒有規劃汽車的部分也要相對應……"],["陳委員昭姿：麻煩。"],["林司長福山：跟委員報告一下，談了一個課題就是排氣管的認證，誠如現在先實施機車的部分，源頭要有先認證過的排氣管，如果車主要去做替換的話，才有合格的產品……"],["陳委員昭姿：其實我大概知道原因，因為你們大概覺得機車比較容易看到側面嘛？汽車是在底面嘛，但我覺得不應該這樣分的，應該要逐步來做……"],["林司長福山：關於汽車的部分，原則上交通部會配合環境部，如果環境部源頭……"],["陳委員昭姿：同樣是噪音嘛？我們不要有雙重標準。"],["林司長福山：有認證的話，後面我們都可以來配合辦理。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝。另外我要談一個，汽車排氣管它本身有很多設計成可分段拆卸，請問部長你瞭解為什麼排氣管要設計成可分段拆卸，這個理由您瞭解嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：我不是那麼清楚為什麼分段。"],["陳委員昭姿：你看螢幕左邊是機車，右邊是汽車，有人瞭解為什麼要這樣設計嗎？可分段拆卸，就是它有所謂的頭段、中段、尾段，它是可以拆卸的，就是方便維修啊！是為了方便維修，就是原廠出廠的時候，它的設計就是這樣的，我想讓首長們看下一張，目前因為不一致，臺中、南投、苗栗這些地方的環保局規定受理機車改裝合格檢驗的時候，他要求把中段跟尾段焊死、黏死，然後網路上有很多網友在討論說因為你沒有統一標準，所以各地環保局自己去設定這個標準，我覺得這樣是不對的，是不是應該有全國統一的標準來做這件事？就是環境部來規定，然後大家是一致的。"],["薛部長富盛：好，謝謝陳委員的建議，為什麼有些縣市會這樣做，我想是因為很多機車車主經過認證之後，他回去以後又把它那一段拆掉，就如同剛剛陳委員講的，它是分段的，很可能他已經拿到我們的……"],["陳委員昭姿：你說他後來又再去……"],["薛部長富盛：對，還是會造成噪音。"],["陳委員昭姿：不過還是有很多車子原始就是這樣，因為方便維修，我們可以理解。"],["薛部長富盛：OK，瞭解。"],["陳委員昭姿：最後，您剛剛談到科技執法，關於聲音照相設備，我們的數字跟你剛剛的報告是一樣的，部長，我唸給您聽，以六都來說，臺中是13台，數量最多的是新北36台，差了三倍，各縣市除了新竹有10台，是唯一的雙數，其他都是個位數，基隆市最少，只有1台，其實不夠執法使用，如果在執法末端這邊要去瞭解有沒有噪音、爆音，事實上還是需要科技執法，請問你們現在有規劃預算要去幫助、鼓勵地方在執法的時候能夠做得更完整嗎？"],["薛部長富盛：有，跟陳委員報告，本來是112年到116年有編1.9億要購買306台，現在因為有急迫性，已經把執行時程拉到明年，變成112年到114年就會有306台，也請各位委員支持。"],["陳委員昭姿：有在進行中？"],["薛部長富盛：對、對、對，而且加速，希望可以來……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝。我今天的重點是汽機車要一致的管理，焊接的部分也要瞭解……"],["薛部長富盛：好，這個部分我們來處理。"],["陳委員昭姿：還有科技執法的部分請加強。謝謝。謝謝各位首長、謝謝主席。"],["薛部長富盛：謝謝陳委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳昭姿委員。","接下來請陳菁徽委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":252,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","廖偉翔","王育敏","盧縣一","蘇清泉","涂權吉","王正旭","楊瓊瓔","李坤城","林德福","林淑芬","洪孟楷","鄭天財Sra 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有請薛部長請薛部長"},{"start":11.992,"end":12.032,"text":"陳昭姿"},{"start":42.092,"end":42.112,"text":"是。"},{"start":65.768,"end":83.859,"text":"但是這個環境部在這邊也訂定了這個所謂的機動車輛機動車替換用的消音系統的認證管理剛剛部長也有報告然而在那個去年12月27日的新聞稿剛剛部長也有提到源頭管理源頭管理是解決機車"},{"start":86.701,"end":93.363,"text":"機車改裝排氣管這個部分那這個標準是不一致等一下我來請教部長機動車輛跟機車是一樣的嗎在法律上的規範是機動車輛等於機車嗎為什麼在新聞稿裡面只談到機車的部分"},{"start":104.548,"end":120.799,"text":"我所瞭解機動車事實上包括汽車跟摩托車嘛那事實上對環境部而言以及對一般民眾而言他care的是那個噪音的部分不管它產生是四輪或是來自兩輪所以那個才是重點"},{"start":122.635,"end":126.598,"text":"所以這個新聞稿又強調這個機車源頭解決機車的問題那我們會覺得說你只管機車啦那可能用時尚並沒有那麼精神好下一張所以環境部的機動車輛其實所謂的車型噪音抽驗檢驗辦法所以他第二條第一款定義的很清楚機動車輛指的就是"},{"start":145.691,"end":165.981,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":166.141,"end":177.493,"text":"但是並沒有處理汽車的部分那為什麼汽車的部分排氣管改裝是沒有列入這個查核的這個管理機制呢我可不可以了解一下原因"},{"start":178.83,"end":201.249,"text":"我們是不是可以請我們張市長來回答一下好不好比較技術面的跟委員報告這邊主要我們當時跟交通部這邊在討論在那個過程裡面目前第一個問題比較多的是機車是比較多汽車當然也是有但是汽車這部分目前交通部是還沒有打算改裝登記還沒有開始實施"},{"start":203.852,"end":215.849,"text":"現在有兩件事情一個是改裝要不要登記這是一件事情但是就環境部這邊來講只要噪音超過標準的不管是機車或者汽車都會開閥這是兩件事情"},{"start":216.531,"end":243.146,"text":"不是,就是重點就是說因為你的法規上是講機動車輛嘛它是確實包含汽車嘛但是你現在的執法的重點就在於這個機車沒有包括這個汽車部分我是覺得我可以接受逐步的處理但是說機車量比較多所以暫時不處理汽車齁這個還是就是請你們再思考不是,我現在就放一段影片齁我放一段影片就是請你瞭解一下到底是哪一種車子發出這個噪音齁好,請你播放"},{"start":258.783,"end":278.798,"text":"部長,您覺得這是什麼車子?哪一種車型?以我的經驗,好像汽車跟機車都會有這種...所以是...都有可能,我個人覺得...誒,你這個單選是怎樣?啊?部長?部長,就是汽車啊?汽車啊?"},{"start":283.209,"end":307.95,"text":"當然這一題這裡面看起來是汽車但是我的經驗是好像有一種摩托車那種聲音也是加速也是只有你的法規也含那當然我們是重點在噪音嘛所以就是說對於這種暴音車輛不管是來自這個汽車或汽車我這樣博人都一定同意用力抓重重罰所以你剛剛也提到說要加重這個罰則嘛所以即便改裝是合法的但是改裝之後所發出的這個"},{"start":308.75,"end":309.09,"text":"我認同事實上"},{"start":334.085,"end":355.883,"text":"其實汽車的量不會少於這個機車嗎?給陳委員報告我的理解是我們先把造成問題的最大部分的先解決然後接下來在其他的部分那一般來講汽車剛剛所看到你看它一定是在高速公路或者在比較寬敞的道路汽車才比較四輪的才比較會造成這種造成"},{"start":356.763,"end":378.801,"text":"我們剛剛在討論,你剛剛說科技可以執法嘛對,要用科技執法才有可能活著的話那因為過去機車是有所謂的一年緩衝期嘛就是它改裝之後一年內我們也是一年緩衝期,今年是緩衝期就是說機車的既有的機制是OK的但是現在就對於汽車的部分有沒有這種規劃跟想法呢?"},{"start":380.661,"end":397.407,"text":"我覺得我們可以來做 管不管,就是說要不要管 我想跟委員報我們管是管,就是他只要超標,噪音超標,抓到還是都開單 這個不分機車或汽車 這沒有分 但是我們做很多源頭就是來自排氣管的改裝嘛 如果你先給他一個檢驗的機制"},{"start":399.568,"end":401.349,"text":"是不是可以請交通部來問一下有沒有規劃汽車的部分也要相對應"},{"start":417.093,"end":444.506,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是說談了一個課題就是排氣管的認證那陳如現在就是說先實施汽車的部分源頭要有先認證過的這個排氣管那如果車主要去做替換的話才有合格的產品其實我大概知道原因了因為你們大概覺得說汽車比較容易看到側面嘛那汽車是在底面嘛但是我是覺得不是應該這樣分的這個汽車的部分的話原則上交通部會配合環保署如果說環境部"},{"start":445.626,"end":447.668,"text":"請問部長你瞭解為什麼這個排氣管它要設計成可分段拆線這個理由你瞭解嗎?"},{"start":463.919,"end":492.514,"text":"我不是那麼清楚為什麼分段?你看左邊是汽車嘛,後面是汽車就有人了解嘛為什麼要這樣設計可分段拆卸就是它有所謂的頭段、中段、尾段它是可以拆卸的嘛那就是方便維修啊它是方便就是它整個這個有時候原廠車就原台出廠的時候它的設計就是這樣的那我想讓看首長們看下一張下一張就是所謂的這個目前齁目前因為不一致嘛難"},{"start":493.354,"end":522.601,"text":"台中南投苗栗這個部分他地方的環保局他規定就是受理機車改裝這個合格檢驗的時候他要求把中段跟尾段焊死、碾死然後網路上有很多網友在就是在討論說這個是各地因為你沒有統一標準各地的這個環保局他自己去設定這個標準那我覺得這樣是不對的是不是應該有全國統一的標準來做這件事就環保署環境部來規定然後大家是一致的"},{"start":523.061,"end":537.325,"text":"好 謝謝陳委員的建議因為我想為什麼會有些縣市會這樣做是因為很多這個機車的車主他經過認證之後他回去以後又把它哪一段又拆掉就如剛剛陳委員講他分段"},{"start":539.806,"end":554.697,"text":"很可能他已經拿到我們的﹖你說他後來又再去﹖後來對﹖還是會造成噪音﹖不過還是有很多次他原始這樣﹖因為他為了方便維持﹖OK﹖我們可以理解﹖最後您談到的那個﹖那個下一張﹖剛剛說就是科技﹖科技除脂肪聲音照相設備這個是我們也是跟你剛剛報告的數字是一樣的那根據部長我唸給您聽所以是說之下是以六都來說臺中是13臺那數量最多的是新北36臺是差了3倍"},{"start":567.045,"end":590.137,"text":"那各縣市除了新竹有10台唯一的雙數其他的都是個位數那基隆市最少只有一台其實不夠執法使用那如果說在執法末端這邊要去了解有沒有這個噪音報音事實上還需要科技執法那請問你們現在有規劃這個預算就是說要幫助鼓勵這個地方的這個地方他們在能夠在執法的時候能夠做得更完整嗎"},{"start":593.218,"end":618.915,"text":"給陳委員報告本來是112到116有編的這個1.9億要購買306台那現在因為有這個急迫性已經把執行時程拉到明年變成112到114就會有306那也請各位有在進行中好對對對而且加速我今天的重點是希望未來可以好就謝謝就是氣質熱要一致的管理那焊接的部分也要了解那這個科技執法部分請加強好謝謝謝謝陳委員謝謝主席"},{"start":623.099,"end":623.42,"text":"陳昭姿委員"}]}},{"id":"151490","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151490","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/5754819b6179c3365184902e4f5c000e7dee175bc8e0be1adcb4691eb09bf4e2b0d6301640ef21585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"09:16:52 - 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長了70%左右那如果說我們政府政策我們不斷的鼓勵推動文創然後又要對文創的成果這樣子的消費要來課娛樂稅那這不是互相矛盾嗎一方面鼓勵一方面又要課稅所以我查了一下財政部過去反對"},{"start":139.586,"end":161.254,"text":"廢止娛樂稅他說啊財政部的意思說難有替代財源那我看了這幾年我們娛樂稅大概一年16到18億啦而且民國96年當年修改娛樂稅法的時候已經有下了附帶決議就是說一年後一年內啦就應該把娛樂稅廢除好啦"},{"start":167.496,"end":172.682,"text":"難有替代裁員找了17年還找不到替代裁員嗎?"},{"start":174.508,"end":201.68,"text":"才16億到18億之多找了17年而且這16億至18億的金額對我們整體稅收而言根本為乎其為所以我覺得財政部如果繼續拖延的話那就是四個字以拖待變那麼這一次我的提案裡面也把高爾夫納入因為我認為高爾夫現在早就普及算是全民運動啦"},{"start":202.901,"end":225.277,"text":"那麼財政部的理由過去的理由說有耗費環境資源之意確實高雄福球場會耗費環境資源但是我們應該用另外的綠色稅制來課他才對嘛應該把娛樂稅取消我們應該研擬比方說對高雄福球場課能源稅啦"},{"start":226.118,"end":235.938,"text":"徐富癸等17人、委員羅明才等19人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人、委員羅明才等19人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23人、委員王世堅等23"},{"start":238.137,"end":249.469,"text":"在一年多到民國115年1月1日如果財政部還沒有研擬新的稅制作為替代財源的話那麼就應該停止徵收娛樂稅我認為加了這樣的附帶條款這個落日條款"},{"start":258.538,"end":279.391,"text":"讓財政部有一個時間上的壓力否則就像先前已經找了替代財源找了17年竟然一點點16到18億竟然都找不到我覺得這樣子是非常離譜的所以今天我做出了這個提案向各位委員同仁做說明謝謝謝謝王委員"},{"start":285.509,"end":288.515,"text":"接著請徐富癸徐委員"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}