{"total":{"value":134,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2024-04-24"],"total_page":2,"ivods":[{"id":"15846","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15846","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dd1c34ab709cdaffb0680f69c62f9e24233be8d109af184be4a7af8f9b89d3fcbe5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-24T12:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院朝野黨團協商（事由：國民黨黨團建請院會作成決議：本院國民黨黨團，為避免物價因電價調漲，民生痛苦指數飆升，因此反對台電公司調漲電價，建請院會作成決議：「立即停止調漲電價，並要求行政院責成相關部會即刻檢討現行能源政策並提出因應對策與配套措施，以兼顧人民生計、維持供電穩定及台電公司之正常營運。」是否有當？請公決案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-24","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:29:59+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"committees":[19],"type":"黨團協商","title":"立法院朝野黨團協商","id":"黨團協商-2024042203","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:20:30+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":3031,"委員發言時間":"11:29:59 - 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那麼我們還是準時開始其他的黨團助理你們再聯繫報告 我們協商會我們現在協商國民黨黨團提案為避免物價因電價調漲．民生痛苦指數飆升．因此反對台電公司調漲電價"},{"start":2196.815,"end":2197.475,"text":"本案經過113年3月29日立法院第十一屆"},{"start":2224.56,"end":2231.963,"text":"第一會期第七次的院會決議交付黨團協商並由國民黨黨團負責召集協商協商會亦請各黨團指派代表參加我們今天出席的協商代表首先是經濟部的曾文森政務司長謝謝能源署的吳務署長謝謝"},{"start":2253.35,"end":2254.511,"text":"經濟部國運會管理師林簡任記政臺電公司副總副總理王總經理"},{"start":2290.411,"end":2306.545,"text":"有關於電價停止調漲的提案我想說代表行政機關向立法院做說明首先有關第一點就是我們現在的電價調整機制的來源是怎麼來的"},{"start":2307.706,"end":2330.7,"text":"實際上他是立法院在2015年的1月20號有參與那個決議通過就是電價費率的計算公司的修訂那他要設置電價費率審議會那他主要是一年審兩次這些基本的一些原則都在2015年立法院的決議通過"},{"start":2332.361,"end":2348.068,"text":"那到2017年的時候就是整個電價在電業法修訂的時候電價的這個審議的規範入法那入法以後呢在2017年1月26號已經正式公告那後來在同年"},{"start":2349.484,"end":2369.39,"text":"經濟部的能源局就頒布了這一個電價審議的公式讓這一個電價審議能夠正式的法制化那在這一個電價審議裡面當然他考慮到的是一年檢討兩次電價同時要考慮節能減碳照顧民生等等原則"},{"start":2371.011,"end":2395.106,"text":"這個辦理電價審議這些審議委員的組成也包含民間單位包含公商團體消費者代表等等我們是依照這樣子的一個機制在運作這一次在有關於整個電價審議的狀況主要的考慮的情形是這樣事實上從2022年開始整個國際的能源價格就開始大漲"},{"start":2396.187,"end":2420.027,"text":"我們其實在照顧民生穩定物價就是依照電價公司所列舉的這些精神下面其實是採取一個緩漲的狀況那台電公司在2022年開始整個公司的購電的燃料成本就已經超過6000億元跟之前超過3000億元的燃料支出相比是成長了一倍"},{"start":2422.869,"end":2439.281,"text":"為了要因應這一波的漲勢事實上全世界許多的國家因為大部分國家的電力公司是人民營的他們的電價都漲得非常的快而且漲得很早尤其是像法國、韓國這一些在2020、2023年它的工業電價累積調幅已經分別高達160%跟87%這是法國跟韓國"},{"start":2448.288,"end":2460.277,"text":"那以跟台灣相比台灣其實我們的電價調整的速度相對來講比較和緩那這三年來我們在住宅類的累積漲幅大概是7.1%那電價小電價的漲幅大概是12.2%"},{"start":2466.661,"end":2487.467,"text":"工業用電漲44.7%整體來講就是大院比較關心的就是有關於一般的民生跟物價相關的這些電費的漲幅事實上並不是平均電價加總起來的30%那只有7.1%跟12.2%所以這個是我們採取考慮國內整體的狀況所採取的電價調整的方式"},{"start":2496.61,"end":2511.41,"text":"那要跟委員報告就好好 謝謝我們次長的說明我想你剛剛訴說的都是我們現在的樣態那整個機制當然我們依法但是我們也了解到整個這個"},{"start":2514.198,"end":2527.125,"text":"民生的議題 因為國家是一整體性的所以在政府部門一定要支持台電公司所以我們從行政院這邊要求也撥補1500億、1000億過來這個目的就是要大家共體實踐所以在這邊我要謝謝次長的說明"},{"start":2536.05,"end":2552.952,"text":"那接下來呢這個我們現在進行協商那在現場我們剛剛到的委員有黃孟楷委員謝謝我們的書記長還有我們的黃珊珊委員謝謝來我們有沒有哪一位委員是"},{"start":2555.133,"end":2579.329,"text":"謝謝主席今天召開這樣的一個協商我想今天看起來民進黨團是沒有要出席那台電以及我們經濟部次長台電總經理我想利用這個機會再次強調台電基層的公務同仁我們每一個我相信在這一個會議室裡面每一個人都很支持我們台電基層的公務人員為什麼因為他們最辛苦我們比誰都了解"},{"start":2580.129,"end":2594.014,"text":"但是如果說錯誤的能源政策不改變的話再累死所有基層的公務人員也無濟於事為什麼過去十年沒有看到那麼多的小動物那麼的活躍為什麼這十年小動物頻繁"},{"start":2596.348,"end":2620.469,"text":"再者經濟部長剛剛在經濟委員會的時候特別提到我剛剛也質詢他我就說你一直講說現在要減碳是趨勢但排碳大戶有哪一些前十名裡面台電就是排碳大戶所以我們現在要看到的是國家能源政策應該要往正確的方向那以及現在的電價調漲帶動的是整體的物價上漲"},{"start":2623.732,"end":2638.794,"text":"所以物價上漲、通貨膨脹其實受害的還是全民所以我們能源政策應該要去做改變也因此這是為什麼我們提出今天相關的一個動漲的部分那也兼顧人民的生計跟維持供電的穩定"},{"start":2640.436,"end":2668.481,"text":"本席這邊討論完我想今天可能沒有辦法做實際的一個協商所以我們把我們的立場說明清楚我們還是再一次呼籲台電的所有員工的辛苦我們都知道但我們更希望的是執政黨應該要好好的把正確的能源政策給改變讓國家能夠永續發展以上 謝謝好 謝謝洪孟愷的委員那現在我們還有鄭天才委員到了我們的會場 謝謝來 那其他委員還沒有要發言"},{"start":2671.874,"end":2672.596,"text":"來 我們黃珊珊委員 謝謝"},{"start":2681.616,"end":2708.474,"text":"好的 朝野還有各位同仁以及行政部門我想今天這個協商臺灣民眾黨的立場其實非常的清楚因為我們明天也要召集相關提案的協商那同樣臺灣民眾黨希望的是針對經濟部宣布在四月起工商、民生用電全面漲價的部分要阻止台電擴大虧損但是在蔡政府執政七年以來電價已經調漲過三次"},{"start":2710.755,"end":2737.026,"text":"那漲幅也高達了23%那4月電價再調漲11%那這當然一定會造成物價百物齊漲衝擊百工百業那目前蔡政府提出不得不漲的理由其實某個程度是錯誤的能源政策要求人民來買單一手向人民的口袋要求漲電價然後轉手再向民間電廠高額的購買"},{"start":2741.047,"end":2764.014,"text":"購入綠電：導致台電目前的財務黑洞持續擴大：營運的效率備受質疑：發電、儲電、配電跟電網韌性不足的問題：到現在也沒有進行改善：也就是我們一直在填補它的虧損：但是它應該要做的檢討：或進一步的改善：目前為止並沒有看到新的做法"},{"start":2765.114,"end":2783.403,"text":"錯誤的政策是比貪污更可怕我們希望至少在院會要作成決議要求經濟部要針對臺灣整體能源政策以及電價的費率結構還有台電相關各項支出以及它的尊潔措施要向經濟委員會提出全面性的檢討報告"},{"start":2784.863,"end":2810.87,"text":"這個是台灣民眾黨的部分我們希望說經過經濟委員會的委員會的審議通過以前應該電價還漲而不是單純的就漲跟不漲而是台電必須要提出他們對於整體能源政策、電價費率結構還有各項支出以及遵截措施必須要提出檢討報告否則這個之前我們希望能夠全面還漲以上"},{"start":2812.355,"end":2821.463,"text":"非常感謝黃珊珊委員接下來我們現場還有謝一鋒委員有沒有其他委員要發言謝一鋒委員有沒有要發言"},{"start":2826.002,"end":2841.246,"text":"那我要謝謝大家因為今天民進黨委員沒有到那我要再次重申因為在去年的時候的九月份也是沒有漲價我們當然知道電價審議委員會一年兩次"},{"start":2847.088,"end":2866.548,"text":"但是我們也不要淪為政治的話術說因為去年要選舉所以它不漲價我們不希望如此我們真的非常希望能夠照顧民生那麼台電公司從韌性電網等以及最重要的能源政策到底要怎麼做"},{"start":2867.589,"end":2880.253,"text":"就正如剛剛委員所說的錯誤的決策比貪污更嚴重那要怎麼樣去將這個能源的政策去思考我相信這也是未來要接任的這個賴準總統必須要"},{"start":2883.774,"end":2884.374,"text":"實際上去面對的問題"}]}},{"id":"15845","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15845","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fc1c34ab709cdaffb07931ae751f1d07213be8d109af184be41a3e2fa17c92ea065ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運用以降低基層司法體系負擔之成效與精進期程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-24","start_time":"2024-04-24T08:31:47+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-16"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:19:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":13633,"委員發言時間":"08:31:47 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t":1852.213,"end":1872.607,"text":"那本次議程邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就:「如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運用以降低基層司法體系負擔之成效與精進期程．進行專題報告．並備質詢。」那麼現在介紹在場委員我們羅志強委員歡迎您"},{"start":1881.837,"end":1883.979,"text":"現在進行報告發言時間5分鐘請司法院吳秘聰報告主席"},{"start":1901.977,"end":1923.008,"text":"各位委員．法務部蔡部長．各位機關代表．各位先生．各位女士本人僅代表司法院就本日的專題進行報告一共有7點進行指教第一點民事訴訟部分"},{"start":1924.147,"end":1942.26,"text":"那麼有透過修正民事訴訟法第249條第249條之一有關個案濫訴防度的法制那麼另外也有修正民事訴訟法第486條"},{"start":1945.767,"end":1965.185,"text":"規定看告經過裁定法院以不合法或原法院以未繳納裁判會而不合法為由裁定駁回確定或再申請再審或以其他方法聲明不符則不勝效力以免無謂耗費司法職員經過這些有關"},{"start":1971.471,"end":1978.634,"text":"防止濫訴的這些規範之後在新法實施前111年統計有3000件該類濫訴的案件經過修法之後有獲得改善第二點是關於辦理調解業務績效逐年成長"},{"start":1997.518,"end":2012.574,"text":"106年開始有設置完成視訊外紛爭解決機構查詢平台方便民眾查詢使用根據統計各地方法院辦理的調解終結建樹"},{"start":2017.925,"end":2045.818,"text":"從106年的10萬多件那逐年增加到112年的18萬多件成長78.84%所以這個也有顯著的成效那另外在第二點就是關於刑事訴訟部分那麼為了合理分配司法資源減輕基層司法人員的工作負擔那麼本院之前已經"},{"start":2047.298,"end":2070.211,"text":"提案修正刑事訴訟法關於限縮第三審上訴罪名及擴大第一審獨任審判範圍已經修法通過有獲得部分的改善為了要進一步提升審判效能對於坦誠犯罪案情相對單純明確的類型見過"},{"start":2077.196,"end":2102.733,"text":"分流制的刑事訴訟,所以嚴厲修正刑事訴訟法在第一審的部分擴大檢視審判程序的適用範圍第二審的部分,就第一審已經合法調查過當事人吳正義的證據二審法院就不再進行重複調查可實現有效率的刑事訴訟,減輕審理案件的負擔"},{"start":2108.697,"end":2133.974,"text":"那第三點在刑事訴訟部分在112年8月15日修正的刑事訴訟法新制那麼在刑事訴訟法第219條第228條之一以及第二篇第一章第8節那麼有完善的替代裁判的紛爭解決機制並且依照"},{"start":2137.639,"end":2141.263,"text":"第107條、249條徵定個案濫訴防度的規定相關制度書簡訟言協助當事人合意來解決紛爭有效減輕司法人員的負擔"},{"start":2155.064,"end":2175.124,"text":"第四點是關於少年及家事事件部分這一部分我們也是從108年開始就推行精進的法院家事調解業務這一部分也都有從統計資料來看也都有很顯著的一個績效達到疏減重點"},{"start":2178.476,"end":2205.665,"text":"第五點是推動裁判書的簡化這個是我們現在列為一個很重要的一個重點在本院在推動裁判書簡化列為我們的施政計畫的重要事項才在剛上個月25日本院所舉辦的司法所長業務座談會"},{"start":2208.198,"end":2216.206,"text":"有提供民宿廳、刑事廳、行政廳會前所研擬的有關裁判書簡化原則還有參考規範請各法院能夠來朝這個方向努力第6點是關於租姓運用科技"},{"start":2229.923,"end":2230.603,"text":"第7點也一併"},{"start":2255.246,"end":2268.376,"text":"請行政部門能夠協助投資更多的人力資源以降低司法同仁的工作負擔那麼我們也有提出這個有關的附件還有有關數據那確實從103年到102年那麼案件成長率達到28%那麼未結案也成長96%所以我們很期盼這個"},{"start":2281.345,"end":2309.571,"text":"目前要清理基案這個是一個非常艱困人力非常的需要我們提出的清潔位置案件急迫需求人力有5536人這一部分麻煩請期盼我們人事行政總署等行政部門能夠協助以這個來解決我們目前的困難非常感謝 謝謝"},{"start":2314.019,"end":2333.527,"text":"好 謝謝秘書長那在進行下一個報告之前因為會場委員已把法定人數我們先處理請問各位對於上次的會議意思錄有錯或遺漏沒有喔沒有的話那我們意思錄確定好 那接下來請法務部蔡部長報告時間5分鐘"},{"start":2342.697,"end":2353.209,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先進今天奉邀到貴委員會代表法務部列席報告並備質詢那將報告如下,敬請各位委員指教"},{"start":2354.978,"end":2378.389,"text":"檢察官肩負犯罪偵查,面對近年來與日俱增的刑事案件,犯罪守法日新月異的積極偵查挑戰,工作負擔日益沉重。而檢察官辦案輔助人力,包括檢察事務官、書記官等亦隨之加重負擔,面臨到人力不足的困境。"},{"start":2379.289,"end":2386.917,"text":"因此在人力方面本部除了向行政院積極爭取新增檢查機關員額在109年增援了110位110年增援了187位從111年到114年合計分4年有600位"},{"start":2399.263,"end":2421.45,"text":"此外．更積極地爭取禁用檢察官助理．推動檢察官助理的法制化．其能充實檢察機關的輔助能力．在行政簡化、訴訟減量．與科技運用上也積極地研修法制．並實施各項的改善方案．以疏減工作負荷在行政簡化方面"},{"start":2422.366,"end":2443.134,"text":"那第一,我們推動了幫助詐欺被告全國總歸戶的計畫就單純提供帳戶、帳號或門號的幫助詐欺案件本部推動總歸戶計畫,針對同一被告帳戶、帳號或門號內的所有被害人應集中到被告戶籍地的司法警察機關統一調查並進行後續的移送"},{"start":2446.84,"end":2455.579,"text":"未來會先經有審查程序以後才分案交由檢察官來偵辦,其能有效降低詐欺案件量。"},{"start":2457.474,"end":2480.254,"text":"推行立案審查中心、試刑調解中心各地檢成立的立案審查中心跟試刑調解中心等任務編組將地檢署收受的案件進行分流由專人直接處理濫訴、檢疫及自白案件的偵查與結案有助檢查人力的調節及資源合理分配"},{"start":2482.846,"end":2501.679,"text":"3.經檢查扣案的分案及結案規定本部會避免查扣案分案過於腐爛將限縮符合以查扣特定類型犯罪所得者以及經檢察長或檢察官認為分查扣案必要者才分查扣案"},{"start":2503.117,"end":2531.473,"text":"第四,精進書類的簡化,以犯罪嫌疑不足的不起訴處分書作為優先對象,頒布適用於所有案件類型不起訴處分書的簡化格式。第五,研議不起訴處分定型化的可行性,研議定型化立稿供檢察官參用。第六,成立合理化檢察官工作負擔研議小組,定期召集會議,提出可行的具體作為。"},{"start":2533.407,"end":2550.077,"text":"第二,在訴訟減量方面第一,推動修法從源頭遏阻詐欺犯罪本部擬拒了《洗錢防治法》第15條之一無正當理由收集帳戶罪第15條之二,無正當理由交付或提供帳戶罪"},{"start":2552.986,"end":2570.275,"text":"並減輕檢察官證明主觀犯意的負擔本部已經擬拒了《洗錢防治法》第15條之二第6項帳戶帳號暫停限制功能或禁與關閉的管理辦法改革再議的制度避免案件重複發回"},{"start":2572.598,"end":2590.877,"text":"對於第二次以上送在意的案件若偵查未完備,上級檢察署以自行偵查為原則,減少在意案件發回次數,避免案件重復發回。偵查中運用調解修復式司法醫療調解案件,得暫時簽請報決。"},{"start":2594.08,"end":2610.993,"text":"鼓勵運用訴訟外分針解決機制,減輕檢察官的案件負荷與壓力。通盤檢討實體法可處罪化的罪名,或就部分犯罪擴大告訴哪一項罪的可惜性。在科技運用方面"},{"start":2611.96,"end":2636.652,"text":"第一,我們發展檢察機關AI智慧輔助系統本部在110年到112年進行3年期的檢察機關AI智慧輔助系統包括AI自動生成9架案件、結案書類出稿並自動判讀是否構成累犯或AI系統自動產製人頭戶詐欺案件被害人匯款付表"},{"start":2637.557,"end":2638.557,"text":"AI系統自動辨識數位見證還有間接警訊筆錄的電子檔在內勤徵訊時自動代錄為徵訊亭的筆錄"},{"start":2650.94,"end":2670.934,"text":"本部在113年至115年會持續推動三年期的檢察機關AI智慧輔助系統建置計畫．包括AI自動生成難度較高的案件結案書類出稿．擴大數位資料的借接．以AI判讀被告前科表等"},{"start":2672.216,"end":2693.198,"text":"至於內勤人犯以遠距視訊來解送遇到輕罪且被告自白者經被告同意並記名筆錄後檢察官可以准以檢方以視訊方式解送這個做法已經推展到全國的地檢署、機關、當事人反應都非常正面"},{"start":2694.763,"end":2719.749,"text":"建制司法聯盟區塊鏈,強化數位證據的驗證效能,確保同一性與真實性,減少政務監管人力負擔。推動RFID科技化章政務庫管理系統,精確監控扣押物移轉歷程,將槍、彈、毒品、貴重物品及死刑證物妥適保存。"},{"start":2721.355,"end":2743.235,"text":"最後導入科技偵查犯罪提升偵查效能各地檢成立了科技偵查指揮中心具有七大科偵的功能另外建構金融資料查調電子化平台創設科技偵查輔助平台整合台高間具有的各類資料庫最後結語"},{"start":2746.581,"end":2764.949,"text":"108年檢察機關全國新收偵探箱案件數為58萬多到112年新收案件已經達到85萬多件呈現了逐年递增的一個狀況而偵查檢察官112年每月平均新收案件高達110件"},{"start":2767.231,"end":2789.544,"text":"偵查終結平均每件所需的日數是61.5天也就是說檢察官必須在很短的時間內終結大量的新收案件工作負荷是很重的本部除了持續從法制面、業務面持續改善檢察機關的工作環境外去年因應打炸業務向行政院爭取的檢察官助理100人"},{"start":2790.484,"end":2813.153,"text":"各地檢運用成效良好．本部任有比照法官助理、偵測檢察官助理法制化的必要．亦提出了法院組織法的修正草案．積極向司法院、行政院、人事、行政總署說明．期盼能夠迅速地完成修法．敬請大院予以支持以上報告 敬請主席、各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":2815.455,"end":2842.933,"text":"好 謝謝法務部蔡部長其餘機關報告請參與書面那麼機關代表報告完畢相關書面報告內容列入公報記錄現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘必要時得延長2分鐘非本會委員詢答時間為5分鐘並不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記請登記第一位的省委員發會質詢"},{"start":2857.665,"end":2871.637,"text":"主席 我們先請司法院秘書長好 請秘書長好 秘書長早我想這個"},{"start":2873.396,"end":2892.893,"text":"今天本會安排這個議程最主要就是在近期大家非常關注有關於4月12號有法官墜樓以及後續的白花運動也在2月的時候有書記官過勞死的問題"},{"start":2898.187,"end":2921.222,"text":"因此我想這樣的相關的議題,這些事情其實就國人來講大家是真的是同感悲欺但是我們司法院作為我們司法的最高的機構我想對於相關的問題我們應該是"},{"start":2924.228,"end":2940.165,"text":"應該是要有所,第一要對社會有所回應第二我們應該也要有所作為一方面我們要滿足於這個社會對於這個司法爭議的要求另外一方面我們也要注重到我們這個"},{"start":2941.934,"end":2968.355,"text":"司法從業人員的這個相關的這些目前的這個業務量過大的這個問題我想我們都應該司法機關責無旁貸司法院責無旁貸那這個我看了你們的這個這個書面報告也看了很多裡面有提到就是說是意思大概就是說我們司法院過去有做比如說我們提出來的最主要的一件事情就是我們這個"},{"start":2969.876,"end":2973.319,"text":"110年的1月我們針對這個民事訴訟法249條我們做了修訂修訂了249條第8款跟增訂了249條之一的這個裁罰的條文最主要就是我們針對這個"},{"start":2991.435,"end":3006.481,"text":"這個．如果這個起訴是基於惡意．或者基於不當的目的．或者有重大的過失．然後事實上．而且他事實上或法律上的主張欠缺合理依據那這樣子我們249條第8項是規定可以裁定駁回那249條之一就明定"},{"start":3013.618,"end":3038.699,"text":"加以裁罰啦齁那這個這個這樣子的修法立法當然就是其實簡單講就是要避免降低這個個案爛數的數目嘛對不對是這樣子嘛但是我們就就如果說這個是我們我們在訴訟報告我們也提了這個部分就意思說我們過去有做了這個但是我們就要看說那修法之後這個修法到底是不是有有效的"},{"start":3039.724,"end":3063.166,"text":"降低了這個爛數這個這個個案爛數是不是有效的降低啦齁那我就就檢視我們這個我們地方法我就地方法院的民事案件的終結數啦齁來來看從100這個這個我現在列表這個是103年開始但是我只我們就只看100110年修法之後的這三年這三年我們這個"},{"start":3066.129,"end":3092.457,"text":"幾乎還是年年增長一百一十二年增加到增加了三十萬件這個增加了將近七趴那一百一十一年相對一百一十年將增加了九趴也就是說我這樣子我看這個數字來講我們一百一十一百一十年的這個修法有關個案爛速的民事訴訟法兩百"},{"start":3095.39,"end":3100.036,"text":"249條的修法事實上看起來好像並沒有達到我們想要的效果是不是"},{"start":3102.014,"end":3124.146,"text":"這個只是訴訟案件的一部分而已像現在增加很多不是屬於這個範圍的所以這個畢竟還是屬於一部分而已可以說是一部分那我們秘書長意思說這個當然這個案件是增加這案件量增加有很多因素"},{"start":3125.347,"end":3145.199,"text":"那我要講的只是說110年的修法之後顯然我們說我們有針對這個我們做的這個修法但這個修法他事實上成效非常有限成效非常其實成效非常有限一小部分而已很小部分多小部分呢我們實際看看你真正這三年來就從110年3月開始到111年我這統計到111113年的2月統計到今年2月"},{"start":3153.973,"end":3172.367,"text":"我們整個這個民事整個有關民事訴訟法的部分有有這個個案爛數的駁回的總共這樣子三年時間只有288件了也就是我們這修法的效益在三年之內只有288件那實際249條之一進行裁罰的總共全個三年全國才53件了"},{"start":3183.239,"end":3207.903,"text":"53件裡面臺北地方法院就佔了14件扣掉之後幾乎幾乎這個修法簡單講這個修法裁罰我想這個成效基本上是非常低的啦這個秘書長是說明一下像士林地方法院這個算是案件量相當大的他整個三年來進行裁罰的才一件"},{"start":3208.507,"end":3223.241,"text":"因為這種修法他有他積極面啦就當事人他看到這個修法之後他也會盡量避免去提出來所以所以這個這個一部分也達到惡質的功效惡質功效"},{"start":3225.103,"end":3247.449,"text":"有,這秘書長意思說除了這個數字,這個數字是發生了,包括駁回的,包括裁罰的,這個之外,還有一些在心理上就惡煮。就惡煮了。惡煮了他們這個個案濫訴的狀況。就是有修法他就會有明文規定了。有啦,我沒有反對修法,我只是講說,這個修法事實上看起來,我個人看起來是認為說成效其實,"},{"start":3248.928,"end":3276.675,"text":"其實相當...就我們目前的司法人員的這個工作量來講成效是...是相當小啦最重要的也是你們在書面報告裡面一再提的其實最重要的是...是人力需求的增加啦 對不對人力需求...就是案件...而且環雜度增加了社會變遷...對 好環雜度是一個啦那人...你們基本上就認為人力不足這個也是...這個也是一個很重要這個是一個...一個..."},{"start":3277.355,"end":3293.704,"text":"一個很重要而且蠻根本的原因啦蠻根本的原因但是我看你們的目前的這個我們司法院的所屬機關人力的法定員額的上限是一萬五千人一萬五千人對不對我們的法定員額上限是是是那我們現在已經達到多少"},{"start":3295.041,"end":3309.409,"text":"現在一百十三年度的預算緣額我們實際上的預算緣額達到多少一萬四千一萬四千五百零八人就剩下四百九十二個名額而已基本上是緊繃了啦緊繃啦緊繃就算讓你補到所謂法定緣額上限"},{"start":3316.416,"end":3322.261,"text":"所以我們提出就是最基本的就是目前需求就達到5536人所以我們是很期盼能夠改這個總言而法"},{"start":3338.092,"end":3359.371,"text":"司法院第一步要趕快去解決這個總原額法你要跟人事行政總署要趕快先解決這個問題解決了之後才有後面人力需求到底可以補不能補的問題嗎報告委員那因為這主政的法規主政機關是人事行政總署對人事行政我就說你們要盡快的跟人事而且在現在社會大家有共識對於這個我們"},{"start":3362.694,"end":3391.649,"text":"司法從業人員的工作量有共識的時候我覺得這時候我們司法院就應該要展現這個態度就從總緣合法這個部分先來調整調整之後才有人力需求能不能補足的問題你第一關都沒有過你要五千多人欸五千多人你們現在緣合只剩下五百多人的緣合所以很謝謝委員這個是最重要的一點所以司法院現在要做的當務之急首要之急當務之急就是跟人事行政總署就"},{"start":3392.828,"end":3402.606,"text":"預算緣額總數的部分先做調整要突破上限啦對 那個上限要做調整這個是司法院現在目前當務之急該做的工作 對不對是是 謝謝 非常謝謝"},{"start":3405.984,"end":3427.989,"text":"接著除了人力需求以外我看你們報告也提到說透過行政簡化訴訟減量用科技降低基層司法體系負擔之成效有關裁判書簡化的部分你們也研議了裁判書簡化的方式到目前為止進度怎麼樣"},{"start":3430.249,"end":3452.704,"text":"這個就這幾年來就列為重點啦那這當然涉及到裡面我們裡面的同仁也要朝這個方向一起來努力啦不是努力啦你們這個有關裁判書簡化你們應該有一些制式的規定的制式的什麼樣可以朝什麼樣的方向簡化不然你要法官個人自己現在去簡化裁判書"},{"start":3454.746,"end":3474.202,"text":"報告委員,所以我們在上個月25號舉辦的所長會議我們有三個廳,民事、刑事、刑程廳就有會前也經過好幾個月時間研擬各種簡化原則還有參考範例作為一個遵行的指引發布了嗎?發布給這些法官嗎?現在開始實施你們所謂簡化的判決書的"},{"start":3482.009,"end":3486.824,"text":"的這個相關的這個相關的這個格式你們已經有"},{"start":3487.967,"end":3513.599,"text":"都在所長會議都正式發布了正式發布了那目前實施上面就這些就目前的法官他們有依照我們所制定的這些新的這些規範來進行裁判書的簡化嗎所以我們一定要加強來宣導我知道你們要加強啦我今天在這裡意思就是要你加強啦這個這些齁其實手段我們都已經"},{"start":3515.139,"end":3538.366,"text":"我們司法院最清楚到底要怎麼解決目前司法委員過勞的部分而且你們也都提出了一些方法但是這些方法到底有做沒有做我再重複一遍喔最重要的我們預算緣額總數請司法院在這段時間積極的跟人事行政總數來爭取好不好謝謝 謝謝好 謝謝沈委員 謝謝吳秘書長接下來有請羅委員志強發言"},{"start":3551.814,"end":3573.206,"text":"主席有請我們的部長跟秘書長請吳秘書長和蔡部長委員好部長在來談法官過勞之前有一個非常重大的題目我要來就教於你"},{"start":3574.229,"end":3594.924,"text":"昨天大法官做這個死刑辯論 對不對那我看到大法官問了一個問題他說一定要跟民意妥協嗎請問部長能不能幫我解讀一下大法官這句話是什麼意思他意思就是要跟民意對著幹的意思了嗎這是大法官的見解我們予以尊重"},{"start":3601.417,"end":3616.424,"text":"我要跟部長說過去我們在司法法制委員會我非常敬佩部長 知道為什麼嗎我看到我們榮介修獲很多委員質詢死刑的問題我覺得言者尊尊啊大法官聽者渺渺啊你那時候有講到八成的民意反對廢除死刑 是不是我們有了解到這個趨勢對 然後也提出要司法自治嘛 對不對"},{"start":3631.416,"end":3660.257,"text":"這句話不是我說的我有看到你們法務部有談到至少你們講要尊重立法權嘛 對不對沒錯吧我們認為應該尊重代表民意的立法機關答對阿 非常好阿可是今天我要非常不客氣的說大法官問出這句話一定要跟民意妥協嗎那不就是大法官已經透露他的新政了"},{"start":3662.076,"end":3686.354,"text":"今天他就是要跟民意對著幹了嗎我這邊也要說今天法務部代表今天說真的大法官這個所謂的死刑的辯論好像只剩下法務部今天能夠代表跟大法官部這個所推的一些所有的一些意見不相同的一個意見能夠代表八成民意就是剩下法務部啦是嗎"},{"start":3687.605,"end":3714.853,"text":"我們一貫的立場就是尊重法律的規定現行的死刑規定我們的立場就認為是合憲的我要在這邊特別跟部長說一件事也跟我們的司法院的秘書長說一件事情大法官不是上帝啦大法官如果司法過動本身就是一種違憲的一個行為今天八成以上的民意反對廢除死刑我非常認同法務部說的"},{"start":3716.192,"end":3741.03,"text":"今天如果真的覺得死刑要被廢除那也應該回到國會讓國會來立法廢除現在大法官全部都是民進黨提名的啦請問民意基礎在哪裡憑什麼今天少數而且是代退大法官這大法官你這麼長的任期你要廢除死刑早點廢啦"},{"start":3743.188,"end":3749.676,"text":"你到準備要這個所謂的要卸任了神龍百尾啊稀釋回眸啊什麼意思啊我這邊也鄭重宣布今天大法官如果侵犯立法、背叛民意本席不會接受啊"},{"start":3763.206,"end":3786.137,"text":"我在大安區參選立法委員我的政見就是我反對廢除死刑我代表反對廢除死刑名義進到立法院以後今天對於所謂的大法官侵犯立法權來去廢除死刑的話我無法接受將來在立法的時候我想請問部長大法官一旦作出死刑違憲的判決之後接下來會要怎麼辦"},{"start":3787.489,"end":3805.896,"text":"接下來怎麼辦我們有準備各種方案就看大法官最後憲法法院怎麼做解釋我們都有事先都預擬好了如果說是違憲呢我們有應對的方法什麼應對方法有各種方法什麼各種方法"},{"start":3807.887,"end":3829.907,"text":"部長抱歉喔我對你都一直很尊敬喔你今天不要在這邊損及我對你的尊敬喔具體的方法是什麼你不能告訴我嗎具體的方法如果他認為該怎麼樣我們就怎麼樣嘛什麼叫該怎麼樣怎麼樣他說你死刑違憲啊我直接說啦接下來立法院就要配合修法對不對"},{"start":3831.294,"end":3860.197,"text":"按照憲法 按照這個所謂的大法官如果認為違憲的話立法院要配合修法 把所有死刑全部廢掉 是不是這個意思呃 看他最後的解釋文怎麼樣 該修法我直接告訴 我直接告訴部長我絕對不會配合修法啦今天我會說民進黨的立委 你敢配合修法嗎我要事先都講了今天廢除死刑 是崩潰我們社會法治的基礎啊"},{"start":3861.768,"end":3886.484,"text":"在這邊我跟你講我今天用這些話雖然講得重我是為大法官好我真怕今天憲法法庭的辯論真正人民的聲音他沒有聽進去他沒有聽進去這麼重大的憲政爭議過去大法官解釋死刑合不合憲請問部長過去的解釋是合憲的答對了"},{"start":3887.628,"end":3897.291,"text":"你今天要來挑戰過去的大法官挑戰當前八成的民意挑戰立法院的憲政尊嚴羅志強是不會退讓的啦將來如果進到立法院要配合修法我第一個反對修法啦你要做憲政危機、憲政僵局、憲政爭議大法官我跟你對著幹啦我講白就是這麼一回事"},{"start":3913.789,"end":3937.355,"text":"昨天聽到這句話我非常的不爽啊什麼叫做一定要跟民意妥協你是上帝嗎?你是上帝嗎?前面的憲法的四憲講得清清楚楚合憲現在的八成民意反對廢除死刑而法務部也告訴大家要廢除死刑應該由立法決定三重侵犯"},{"start":3939.481,"end":3953.862,"text":"還沒有把這個憲法法庭的最後的解釋出來我在這邊只是先做預告真的拜託拜託拜託拜託拜託再拜託我們大法官好好傾聽這些被害者的聲音啊"},{"start":3956.055,"end":3972.86,"text":"這些被害者在家屬在暗處哭泣的聲音請他們聽一聽這八成民意強烈的反對請他們聽一聽立法院的憲政尊嚴請他們聽一聽過去大法官認為死刑核限的這些前輩們的聲音請這些大法官聽一聽如果這樣硬著幹我跟你講就是憲政危機第二個我就要問我們的法官過豪的問題"},{"start":3986.192,"end":4011.973,"text":"非常沉痛今天必須用一個法官一個書記官的生命來去告訴大家今天法官過了現在我們的司法你可以看到案件大幅增加是不是秘書長大幅增加我們2016到2023年地方法院受理案件數從308萬增加到391萬"},{"start":4015.964,"end":4017.905,"text":"漲幅27%那我想請教我們現在的法官他是從2016的2071人變成2196人只成長6%請問秘書長這些法官過去這麼多年來的過勞的心聲我們的司法院有掌握嗎?"},{"start":4042.142,"end":4045.364,"text":"我要跟各位說,去年司法院在立法院報告的時候是希望把員額提高到22000人嘛,對不對?"},{"start":4060.027,"end":4087.27,"text":"這是以10年期的期程來報告來估算那今天的報告是說預算是估算需求差5536人那我想請問司法院如果以短中期3到5年來看需要多少元額大概我們目前是期盼我就是提出來這個5536人我跟秘書長說今天司法過了痛苦的不只是司法人員"},{"start":4088.857,"end":4108.55,"text":"其實對於訴訟當事人也是如此因為他會降低司法的裁判品質你今天就讓司法人面臨兩難嘛一個就壓榨生命跟身體嘛 對不對那另外一個就是讓案件的訴訟品質下降這兩件事情對司法對全國官都不是好事情"},{"start":4109.281,"end":4131.526,"text":"所以在這邊我知道上一屆委員有提案但因為新國會藉其不連續的關係所以上一屆的一些相關法要重新提出我這邊也說我願意當我們的基層司法人員的後盾所以對於中央政府機關總原額法第4條修正案提高第三類司法院及所屬機關職員的原額上限"},{"start":4132.146,"end":4155.893,"text":"這部分我已經擬好了也會開始連述希望我們一起共同的來終結司法過勞改善司法品質就從修法開始所以也希望說今天我們的行政部門特別其他包括人事行政總署、考試院權序部還有法務部相關的單位其實司法官過勞不是法官而已啦對不對部長也包括檢察官"},{"start":4159.33,"end":4181.67,"text":"對 檢察官就是司法官還包括了輔助人力檢察事務官還有包括書記官法警都是我們要注意要考量其實檢察機關也非常辛苦我覺得案件減量可能不只是透過員額而已還有包括說今天怎麼讓案件更親自分工這個部分我也會提出一些意見提供法務部參考 以上"},{"start":4183.646,"end":4211.934,"text":"好,謝謝羅委員、謝謝兩位秘書長、部長接下來有請謝委員、榮介發言主席,我請補充到秘書充一下好,有請秘書長、部長委員好"},{"start":4213.686,"end":4231.656,"text":"秘書長 非常心疼用在優秀的司法人員的姓名還可以喚起大家對這個司法改革突顯到這裡的人司法人員的辦案的壓力這麼大我感覺這對我們的社會他們所付出的代價最大你有這樣的感覺嗎"},{"start":4243.692,"end":4262.886,"text":"當然是深切感受你為了這樣再來提出這個改革醫化越多智能化越多結果司法人員壓力越大這是內部有問題啊不是法官有問題啊尤其是大法官還在會議我頂多就問過你了你告訴我你都沒態度你不是大法官"},{"start":4272.264,"end":4275.365,"text":"你要有一個態度出來嘛!"},{"start":4275.365,"end":4276.025,"text":"台灣官如果會試就對了!"},{"start":4276.025,"end":4279.086,"text":"阿伯在案訴驚會更多!訴我領完本人的案例就對了!"},{"start":4279.086,"end":4279.306,"text":"會更大!"},{"start":4279.306,"end":4279.326,"text":"對不對?"},{"start":4279.326,"end":4280.926,"text":"是不是這樣?這是一個骨鐵屬性的!"},{"start":4280.926,"end":4281.526,"text":"阿台灣官都不用討論!"},{"start":4281.526,"end":4282.166,"text":"大家都吃飯卡中了!"},{"start":4282.166,"end":4283.026,"text":"能做到台灣官還在吃飯卡中?"},{"start":4283.026,"end":4283.046,"text":"靠!"},{"start":4299.537,"end":4304.621,"text":"尤其像我本人 立法院的立法官 當初我就跟你說過 保證你一生就對了 做一個司法人員 會做個保證我跟你說 已經是對你的司法性愛 已經是完美的一個過程了但最後 在最後這個階段 你如果能夠再發揮你的功能"},{"start":4326.769,"end":4330.331,"text":"可以在這個灰燈熄熄的地方在前面辯論你的訴求有證明你在這裡跟本席的答覆說你準備好了沒有顧及人民的感情什麼叫做要看民意作為為什麼不用看民意作為如果司法不用顧及民意沒關係"},{"start":4353.835,"end":4361.822,"text":"當時司法可以傷害人民對地安、基台的感情嗎?你有沒有看到我們現在的年輕人在吃頭肉?去應徵!去我們陪你!再出國!動輒可以一個月給你五六萬!結果回來台灣的時候藥劑減一粒!某種就負減一項!"},{"start":4380.265,"end":4387.389,"text":"先祭 去擁歌不是在國外的 不是在政府在內是在台灣的先祭 送死小女孩在我們這麼多北海 炸片這麼多你還在那裡灰燈熄熄實在講的齁 長者的發展自由齁 隆重"},{"start":4408.24,"end":4432.798,"text":"比算到幾個 沒錯比算到幾個 十幾個十幾個就像在拔河就對了 柴拔也贏 經酸臭也贏經十五個就一百公斤的 對你們三四個就五十公斤的 你是要怎麼救的所以你幾乎靠民意把你停啦 八十四%的民意就是你的囂張啦 整個辯論下來 沒錯"},{"start":4438.834,"end":4450.577,"text":"我在這裡告訴你 你有拿去贏了美國還沒有進步說進步的社會就要輝煞私營我聽你哭在哭的美國沒有進步美國整個州也是一樣私營 它都不去維新日本還沒有進步韓國還沒有進步新加坡還沒有進步"},{"start":4464.301,"end":4480.788,"text":"是如何他們的私營都沒有危險?是如何過去我們的私營都沒有危險?你現在要將它促成危險?剛才柯總召來我告訴你,我說台灣現在存兩個人,能把這個私營的心魄變成你的解說,當然要多存兩個人。存兩個人啊,你是第三個啊。第一個就發生在你的柯建民。"},{"start":4493.486,"end":4510.019,"text":"他跟我說他反對：他有發FB：說他要跟我站在一起我聽到很感動啦跟我站在一起沒用啦要跟人民站在一起 要跟正義站在一起啦臨權 什麼人沒有捍衛臨權啦你帶我去哪裡有捍衛臨權 我都沒有在捍衛臨權那些人去用台詞：他去台詞把人的信交收在那些人的臨權"},{"start":4519.329,"end":4528.033,"text":"事情發生後：做乾緩科、泰藍、泵灰色後：還要期待到法律讓他穩定：來紓克他的靈魂哇!你這個大法官是怎樣?大到三都請不下來看不就對整個辯論落來?你會看我 因為剛才你說到 盧委員在問你 我聽到你很害怕你配套都準備好了 你不知道想要退牛?"},{"start":4550.169,"end":4574.234,"text":"這是你人生最好的一件 說什麼我們的立場很清楚我們已經表達了我們堅定的立場認為死刑的規定是合憲的但是大法官他們釋憲的結果是如何我無法預期但是他不管怎麼樣的結果我們都有預擬各種方案這段時間我已經在反映在鏡"},{"start":4576.735,"end":4589.683,"text":"只要我們的法官主宣就對了,復出社名的時候,這個人就像叫你去外面走走的,叫你在司法院玩就直接去外面走走的,這款司法委員就對了,給他解說出來的現法,你不開心他的革命他站在那裡,你不開心他的革命他站在那裡,所以"},{"start":4602.049,"end":4616.699,"text":"沒有顧及人民的感情甚至是傷害人民對司法的期待一點是極其依偎不可本身在這裡我跟你說你不能退牛因為你剛才說的不需要退牛阿爸有配套你都太好了"},{"start":4617.837,"end":4638.973,"text":"包括河瀉包括維瀉我們都要想清楚嘛要準備啦 當然所以...你選擇河瀉就好了啦 維瀉你不用想啦因為他選擇出來 你已經公認撤休啦所以這是你最好的一件你要在你理會前陣喔 做明確本席跟你請求啦本席代表共產黨的台灣人民 無奈的台灣人民在這裡跟你拜託"},{"start":4647.492,"end":4673.62,"text":"你要離開法務部部長進行你三十名你對著緋毒私營合憲是合憲的私營是合憲的你公開發表因為你有能力會擋牛鑽乾坤還有另外一個就是羅清德我已經公開跟他互約了如果清德那些你今天不想表態不管你表態"},{"start":4675.12,"end":4686.588,"text":"待法官改帥之後若是違憲．未來在我們的奧法．台灣人民付出的代價．所有的政筆責任、特定責任．都是你老總統要去承擔．"},{"start":4691.361,"end":4710.107,"text":"這對他不公平但是．他有能力．他若要重點不出聲．相對．他就要付出這個代價．在你司法臨生完畢的過程中．本席．你拜託．你能承諾嗎．在你要理會進行．針對．這個施行是合憲．來表達一個強力的心聲出來．給台灣人民．"},{"start":4721.508,"end":4746.78,"text":"法務部已經表達幾個半了我們的立場都很堅定了就是領域施行的規定是合憲的這已經很清楚了我們也發了好幾次的說明你用你個人最好做一番表達可以嗎現在我沒有我個人的信任我現在仍然是代表法務部啊你的意思就是五位五位你很快要表達就對了"},{"start":4749.761,"end":4774.457,"text":"沒有啦,他這個還沒出來嘛,他的視線結果還沒出來嘛你還要捍衛啊我當然啦,我從頭到尾都捍衛在那裡啊你還要用合憑的角度去捍衛啊有啊,我沒改變啊,從頭到尾我們都一貫的立場啊你不能影響分析對你一生形象的角度呢感謝啦真的啊,你問他個人化學是不是很形象,他的興趣很豐盛"},{"start":4777.526,"end":4793.018,"text":"所以你看看 白白不想把我捏到後面 嘿 民進黨大家都這樣 保證你要替我造成咧 對不對 我們是站在公義和道義這邊 站在正義這邊 所以我強烈在這裡 包括台法官跟那個"},{"start":4796.052,"end":4802.456,"text":"無期徒刑、家屬療養、阿伯行徒,以前在改水基因內下落!你會去買嗎?會去買嗎?本省已經在強烈表達對待法官,百姓立法院立法官的抗議啦!所以在這裏保證,期待你﹐可以在任性司法完畢的最後一天﹐告台灣人民兩千三百萬人站在這裏,感謝你!"},{"start":4825.171,"end":4827.974,"text":"謝謝謝謝謝委員、謝謝部長秘書長接下來有請專委員瑞雄發言謝謝主席,要請我們法務部"},{"start":4853.541,"end":4854.284,"text":"有請蔡部長和吳秘書長"},{"start":4863.276,"end":4883.088,"text":"剛才的廢除署刑,大家說的解說,兩件事叫你們表態,我是覺得比較沒意思,你們怎麼表態?大法官,尤其是憲法法庭,他不是哪一個政黨的憲法的法庭哪怕說他做出來的一個憲法法庭的大法會議解釋出來以後,一筆錢都比較大"},{"start":4887.631,"end":4902.86,"text":"秘書長,我記得我從大一開始,幾個有名的問題,要不要廢除死刑,這個在法學院一年級裡面大家都在辯論這個問題,當年還有同婚的問題。"},{"start":4908.966,"end":4933.685,"text":"還有代理運聞的問題這個東西你看幾十年後都是社會上碰到的問題社會是在進步的但是大法官這整個憲法法庭會做出什麼樣的一個決定那確實是很難各個機關裡面去受到它的去對它有任何的一個影響我也不認為說法務部"},{"start":4935.286,"end":4962.845,"text":"發表你們的聲明完以後還要去大家好像要每一個人都要去影響去主導整個憲法法庭這些大法官他們對整個憲政所做出的一個解釋對法律的說出一個解釋到底是不是合憲但是有幾個問題我倒是要來關心不管是司法院或者法務部我今天早上看到本來是士林地院那個法官比較"},{"start":4965.748,"end":4976.26,"text":"今天也看到高等法院成行法官議事醒過來了這個是比較值得欣慰的一個地方但也代表這個工作環境那確實是壓力甚至於大家講說這個過勞這個案件裡面"},{"start":4978.783,"end":4993.497,"text":"值得兩位部長跟秘書長好好地去做一個省思你說從台灣各地方法院新收案量來看刑事案件於2021年的41多萬件上升到2023年50多萬件案量3年內成長了22%"},{"start":4998.061,"end":5017.709,"text":"司法人力不管檢察官或法官都一定會長緊繃我看日前司法院許中立院長公開回信裡面目前司法師傅的困境也引起了很多法官的不滿雲林地安法院、台北地院、桃園地院、高雄地院法官在專欄裡面也去講"},{"start":5018.849,"end":5035.58,"text":"我不曉得兩位都是法律人來想想問題出在什麼地方翁毓昇前院長被你引來發官給三八十三個這可能秘書長你待會回答吧檢架的比例22.96賴浩敏6年內增加228增幅12.3那任期只有3年的賴英照增加167 還有9.9現在許中立院長7年多現在人家跟他說只有檢架125、檢架6%而已"},{"start":5048.632,"end":5071.783,"text":"那這個儘管在我們2019年修正中央政府機關的總原額法將原額上限從13900提升到15000補充1100的一個人力但是你法官只增加124其他都是書記官337法官助理426這當然就是其他都是輔助人力法官原額實際上也沒有增加可是以現在來看的話"},{"start":5072.864,"end":5084.72,"text":"秘書長是不是可以解釋一下?有誰在質疑啊?我們那個洗驗長他有增加的人數是比較多啦我們人數 人數處長有一個很精準的一個數字"},{"start":5086.967,"end":5107.485,"text":"這裏保證 抱歉喔 還是先有人回答這裏委員 容我報告一下就是說因為我們一個司法官的考試因為法官的來源主要是司法官特考那一個司法官特考從考試到分發需要三年的時間所以許院長的任期前三年分發的法官事實上是前一任的院長提報考試需用名額的那其實我們從100"},{"start":5108.826,"end":5118.55,"text":"人事總署從108年底修正了機關總原額法之後那個預算的增加是實現在110年因為109年的預算在108年年中就已經編列完成了所以真正要增加原額是從110年開始那所以我們從109年開始報告那個法官續用名額是大量的提報以109年到113年來講我們總共報了448個法官續用名額"},{"start":5133.655,"end":5163.395,"text":"那只是說像我們從112年開始報考的都要到115年111年啊開始報到要114年才能分發對不對那都不是許院長任期內他任期今年屆滿的話都是下一任的院長會開始收成這個所增加的法官的這個餘額所以說許院長這個任期內只有增加法官124人其實不是很公平的說法所以你們的意思就是說你們很努力在做啦成果還沒出來啦成果到最後是下一任的人會收成啦"},{"start":5163.575,"end":5184.808,"text":"財政委員您看我們為什麼都增加在輔助人力因為輔助人力還快他今年報考是明年就可以到位所以我們大量增加法官助理那個其實書記官我們也是增加很多人當然報載我就要讓你們去澄清了但我的重點不在這個地方了我的重點是人力確實缺少蔡部長你像我像司法院法官會碰到這個問題你檢察官也會碰到這個問題啊你再看你們的家庭這樣搞不搞"},{"start":5189.597,"end":5217.355,"text":"這幾年你看你們一直在講說打詐啦那整個刑事案件大家不管是檢察官或者法官每一個新收的一個案件量從過去的十幾件飆到也有破百件的那這些喔你看一下你們現在一個詐欺案件看起來又車手啦有的沒的啦共犯啦一堆啦這個牽涉的範圍很廣泛啦常常都是一個案件裡面喔 怕死人牽涉的就幾十個被告的情節也非常複雜我相信法官跟檢察官人力多"},{"start":5218.115,"end":5225.298,"text":"致敬,法務部部長,您的人力的缽南嗎?我也是極力的爭取、爭額,包括從110年,從109年到110年,110年到180年"},{"start":5237.743,"end":5264.709,"text":"一百一十一年 後四年 超過六百個這是我努力去爭取 但是還是不夠後來也有再爭取到檢察官助理不然我們一百個 幾年 今年要超過六百五個但是最終還是要法治化就是說 法院組織法可以訂定檢察官助理有一個實際的名額所以這都開始要努力當然工作的減量也要做你說的詐欺案件"},{"start":5265.649,"end":5266.21,"text":"有工作的配套來減量"},{"start":5284.178,"end":5299.076,"text":"一、我們現在司法人員的社會的一個公信我們來幫你們爭取這一些其實都有一點壓力你知道嗎但本席倒是認為說司法案件不管是怎麼審"},{"start":5300.595,"end":5321.636,"text":"民調都沒管啦 涉及到兩招啦一個案子審出來我跟你講啦 原告他搞不好也不滿意啦 被告也不滿意啦連法官搞不好到最後你對於甚至於是你做出來的一個判決你評議出來以後啊 你們都會覺得自己都覺得不滿意啦連檢察官起訴以後法官判出來搞不好法官判的人檢察官都不滿意啦"},{"start":5322.617,"end":5322.817,"text":"以德國為例10萬人27個法官"},{"start":5352.967,"end":5381.343,"text":"秘書長,我們台灣幾個人分配幾個法官?我們10萬人分配幾個法官?現在法官有2100不是啊,我說帝國10萬人去七個啦,我們台灣10萬人幾個?九個所以也就是說我們去跟其他國家來做比較的話,我們整個法官人數啊你可以想像這些司法工作者他們要面對多大的一個壓力啊那是不是啊,你看這一些法官在控訴"},{"start":5382.489,"end":5399.587,"text":"秘書長你有沒有看到?我剛才說的法官的控訴,裡面現在司法第一線的法官給他一點解釋當然你們剛剛有提到啦,說這個人力的評估的一個機制,要從總院後來看那你們到底什麼時候有辦法把這個問題解決掉?秘書長"},{"start":5404.113,"end":5426.207,"text":"這個當然要乞託並進啦就是總言而法當然要能夠提高上限啦那我們內部當然有一部分我們自己也要如何裁判所簡化這一部分還是要繼續努力啦您創作比較固定的啦我們司法法制委員會我們跟你集齊啦這個問題吵了幾年了啦這樣不是辦法啦"},{"start":5426.806,"end":5450.419,"text":"你像比如說真的司法改革的地方要改革的地方確實是很多啦你像現在以廢除以結案為中心的管理考核的一個機制我看許中立院長在4月12號寫給法官的信也講說以延長刑事詐欺案件的辦案期限以外另將研議犯官相關管考的一個規定對於法官職務的評定不以法官為結案數多寡當成唯一的一個標準這對"},{"start":5452.12,"end":5452.54,"text":"社會一直進步起來後"},{"start":5480.802,"end":5489.429,"text":"一定會面臨各式各樣的一個犯罪手法不同各樣的刑事案件你一定都會遇到這是我們說刑事而已民事會博文又沒有什麼出來說可能就沒有那麼嚴重像這個部分我們請這個司法院或者法務部這邊對這一些建議還有評鑑的一個機制的一個精進要有更積極的一個作為出來我不會像這樣用吶喊式的把你罵的那些人都不會進步"},{"start":5510.265,"end":5511.026,"text":"法務部這個地方跟司法院這個地方 你們有這個責任"},{"start":5535.06,"end":5547.305,"text":"我們一定會努力就是說要齊頭併勁最主要剛剛講齊頭併勁我從上大學就一直在聽司法改革喊了這幾十年我當第四屆的立法委員我沒有看到我們司法受到更好的一個評價這個是我心裡頭比較"},{"start":5565.066,"end":5566.547,"text":"接下來有請黃委員、國昌發言"},{"start":5599.764,"end":5603.508,"text":"謝謝主席,然後有請秘書長、法務部部長好,請秘書長跟部長"},{"start":5615.692,"end":5633.782,"text":"兩位好2017年施改國事會議改善法官具體的工作條件是我們做成的會議結論也是蔡總統針對整個司法環境所做出的莊嚴承諾2017年施改國事會議蔡總統做了這樣的承諾"},{"start":5642.492,"end":5663.196,"text":"2024年我們看到的是法官包括書記官因為工作的壓力限制過勞而離開這個人事我相信大家看了心裡都很難過我比較訝異"},{"start":5671.949,"end":5691.956,"text":"許宗立大法官也是我們的司法院院長去維穩基層我覺得是該做的但他說跟法官說請大家多參加戶外活動不要整天綁在辦公室這句話表面上面聽起來也沒有什麼錯"},{"start":5693.669,"end":5718.674,"text":"但是在法官實際的眼中在他眼裡他是不是活在象牙塔裡面不知道法官實際的工作狀態好像法官有自戀癖自虐癖才不願意出去活動對於基層法官發出這樣子的呼聲來請教一下秘書長司法院有什麼回應"},{"start":5722.341,"end":5727.045,"text":"其實法官發出這樣子的怒吼,大院長後來有沒有把他的話收回去?"},{"start":5755.529,"end":5778.696,"text":"就司法院院長,我們法律人就叫大院長嘛司法院院長後來還有話收回去嗎?這個應該他是出於是出於一個善意啦善意的就是說要請要注意身心健康沒有關係啦,因為我說了大院長第一時間去問法官"},{"start":5779.795,"end":5801.528,"text":"我覺得這是該做的一個司法首長本來就應該該做的他是整個司法體系、法官體系的大家長但當他說出這樣子的話引爆基層法官的怒火的時候我覺得適度的回應或者是說明是必要的再請司法院參考"},{"start":5803.519,"end":5830.996,"text":"法官協會希望一個月內提出減輕法官工作負擔的具體措施我拜讀了今天司法院提出來的書面報告大概一半以上是說明你們過去做了什麼事情大概也就是許中立院長在他給法官的公開信裡面所寫的那些東西的摘要但大家現在更在意的事情是你們過去做了什麼事情"},{"start":5832.543,"end":5838.96,"text":"從法官的角度將心比心從他們的立場來看這件事情顯然是沒有發揮實際的效果"},{"start":5840.751,"end":5867.807,"text":"要不然法官協會不會發這樣的聲明司法院有沒有打算要在一個月內提出減輕法官工作負擔的具體措施還是司法院你們認為你們已經提了如果你們認為你們已經提了提的內容是什麼請說明我們會法官協會他的聲明我們非常重視我們會盡量在一個月內就是我們也有陸續的比如說"},{"start":5869.109,"end":5889.277,"text":"這個昨天也已經把這個相關的辦案起線就走移了這樣好不好齁你們在一個月內回應法官協會具體要採行的措施你們要具體在採行的措施同時一份報告給司法法制委員會全體的委員可以嗎可以可以齁好"},{"start":5890.697,"end":5913.494,"text":"因為司法院在書面報告也說啦說機關總原額要用盡了你們要積極爭取人力但我看到你們爭取人力的那個數字我老實講我自己看了嚇一大跳但我們先就事論事從現在的狀態來講因為司法院的書面報告是說現在預算原額還不夠你們還希望繼續爭取這個我們可以理解但"},{"start":5914.435,"end":5942.883,"text":"人事總署給立法院的報告寫的就是完全另外一回事讓我看了很困惑因為人事總署他們寫的是說司法院到目前的預算原額他有多撥補給你們啊你們平均的缺額還有751個人換句話說人事總署的意思似乎是原額有給你們但是你們沒有用這個是怎麼回事這個這一部分我們昨天有就人事行政總署那個"},{"start":5944.288,"end":5968.102,"text":"七百五十一人我們有研究過這一部分我們處長他有請我跟委員報告一下其實人事總署他的統計數字是來自於我們每半年每半年要月報一次就是那個機關的這個浮動的缺額情形包括就是考試分發列管還有就是領補中還有就是要等的要檢列委外的公有員額"},{"start":5968.982,"end":5984.261,"text":"所以大概這樣子從108人到112人的平均數確實是751但是要強調說這751不是閒置員額他都是考試分發列管比如說我們提報司法官考試100人所以按照你剛剛找的那個計算的方式現在員額全部用慶的是嗎?"},{"start":5985.262,"end":5988.643,"text":"我這樣講好了不好意思容我打斷你你們這樣給的資訊太破碎了你們給的資訊太破碎了"},{"start":6009.929,"end":6036.875,"text":"你們現在有多少元額?所有的元額是怎麼分配的?還缺多少?然後裡面還沒有用的元額預計是今年或者是明年要用到什麼地方可不可以給司法法制委員會一個完整的表啊?法律人做這樣子一個完整的資訊的呈現應該沒有問題嘛現在在立法院的報告裡面完全沒看到啊"},{"start":6038.786,"end":6041.043,"text":"秘書長 這件事情請改進好不好"},{"start":6042.051,"end":6071.177,"text":"報告委員那個護表二是我們目前提出就是擊破需求的菸了我知道啦那是你們開的需求我必須要老實講啊從我的角度上來看這個數字非常的龐大非常的可怕但我們需要知道的是什麼在現在的預算原額裡面你們到底是怎麼用這些原額的如何分配的具體的數字公開透明讓社會法制委員會的委員讓社會知道可以嗎"},{"start":6072.853,"end":6076.836,"text":"因為目前的狀況我就以地方法院民事強制執行收案的情況來看"},{"start":6097.338,"end":6113.384,"text":"因為我在法院基層法院說到的呼聲是地方的民事執行處快要崩潰了快要崩潰的理由很簡單你看數字是呈現這樣子在增長的從140幾萬件2020年的現在已經漲到180幾萬件了這個是週案的狀況"},{"start":6121.058,"end":6149.005,"text":"我們如果看沒有終結的狀況從以前大概基案7萬現在已經double了到14萬地方法院強制執行沒有終結的案件堆積如山目前立法院目前司法院做了什麼因為最主要像執行那個就是保單現在執行的範圍所以那一部分的案件增加很多啦我現在不是問你原因啦我現在問你的是你做了什麼"},{"start":6150.241,"end":6162.109,"text":"因為現在尤其影響最大的是臺北地驗我們最近有趕快補充相關的人力你最近補充相關的人力什麼時候補充的?補充了多少人?"},{"start":6165.927,"end":6182.942,"text":"報告委員因為民事強行執行處主要人力是司法事務官以及書記官、執達員所以在今年的提報司法人員特考的需用名額按照你說的啦特考的名額什麼時候才會進來明年這是一般人力"},{"start":6183.983,"end":6199.44,"text":"我現在問的是這個堆積如山的趨勢不是今天才知道不是上個月才知道不是上上個月才知道我現在請教你們的是你們做了什麼結果你告訴我說你們特考名額增加明年後年人才會進來"},{"start":6200.401,"end":6201.762,"text":"所以我剛剛具體的就問司法院你們到目前為止做了什麼回答一個問題有這麼困難嗎"},{"start":6224.403,"end":6253.315,"text":"一樣針對堆積如山的事情到目前為止做了什麼這件事情可不可以會後書面報告給全體的委員可以嘛最後時間的關係我要請教一下2016年的時候換總統司法院的這副院長那個時候就請辭了"},{"start":6255.54,"end":6273.184,"text":"2016年的時候民進黨也是這樣主張新總統上任司法院正副院長應該請辭那個是當初我們的執政長提出的訴求現在520快到了司法院正副院長要不要循慣例請辭請秘書長"},{"start":6278.268,"end":6291.594,"text":"這個 我不變代言我知道你不變代言但我公開提出這個問題2016年的時候當初現在的司法院正副院長正是因為當時的司法院正副院長因為總統換人而請辭"},{"start":6293.752,"end":6314.861,"text":"他們才上台的現在2024年的今天要不要循憲政慣例請職這件事情我了解秘書長不願意代答但我認為這一件事情現任的司法院的院長跟副院長要以他們的高度跟台灣社會清楚的說明謝謝好 謝謝黃委員 謝謝部長 謝謝秘書長接下來有請陳委員峻語發言"},{"start":6341.084,"end":6356.513,"text":"好謝謝主席那有請我們吳秘書長跟蔡部長請吳秘書長跟蔡部長好秘書長、蔡部長早辛苦了喔"},{"start":6358.098,"end":6378.067,"text":"我想我們今天就這個司法體系透過這個行政簡化、訴訟減量還有我們這個科技運用來降低基層司法人員負擔作為一個專題的討論那我想在兩週前所發生的這個法官墜樓的事件"},{"start":6379.227,"end":6407.979,"text":"令社會各界感到非常的萬喜其中我們看到李法官在生前曾經向他的妻子表達我很累的這種心聲那顯示法官長期在這種高工時高壓力的環境工作下也讓我們再一次聚焦司法官過勞和司法體系負荷過重的這個問題那本席在上週諮詢我們司法院陳廳長的時候曾經詢問過他的工作壓力大不大"},{"start":6408.78,"end":6414.692,"text":"那廳長以過來人的這個身份也表達了這個法官壓力確實是非常的大"},{"start":6415.734,"end":6443.96,"text":"而我很累這個三個字也是目前所有法官的一個共同心聲那從這個憾事發生之後我們看到司法院在4月17號召開檢討會議其中作成一項決議參酌合法工時研議法官的這個合理結案量那我想請教秘書長您認為對法官來講合法的這種工時是多長合理的結案量又是多少"},{"start":6446.431,"end":6453.635,"text":"那假如通常是能夠在上班時間之內來做,來服務,通常是這樣,那至於說"},{"start":6460.959,"end":6478.935,"text":"在這個合理結案量我們內部正在明天就會召集一個一二三審報告法官協會的這個有關同仁啊一起來研究看一二三審的合理結案量到底多少"},{"start":6479.275,"end":6503.933,"text":"好 秘書長您還是比較主張就是能夠遵循我們這個公務員服務法第12條這個每日辦公的時數8個小時那每週辦公總時數不超過40小時那應該也要40的這個週休二日我相信應該是這個目標可是我看起來目前應該是都沒辦法達成還是很難啦很難喔"},{"start":6505.894,"end":6533.154,"text":"委員對不起報告委員其實我們司法院有定一個辦公時數規則就是完全遵循委員剛剛提示的那個公務員服務法的那個工時限制那因為我們的法官工作真的繁重加上社會期待高自我期許也高所以法官真的基於責任感都會自發性的在加班導致工時延長要不然就法規的架構而言我們都其實都有規定法定的辦公時數以外再怎麼加班也不能夠超過每個月70小時好"},{"start":6534.375,"end":6536.355,"text":"那法官每天都在追著案件跑"},{"start":6564.501,"end":6581.82,"text":"面對眼前海量的這種案件每天的工作時間恐怕都超過十幾個小時假日也幾乎都沒辦法正常的休假都在加班不只是這樣造成心理壓力的過大也會嚴重影響到法官的健康"},{"start":6582.591,"end":6611.859,"text":"那減輕法官的這個工作負擔作為我們司法院司法改革的一個重點本席也曾經在第一次質詢的時候請教過秘書長秘書長當時答覆因為我們這個人力不足所以希望在員額上面能夠多加幫忙但是我想除了增補人力之外在分案上、程序上還有管考制度上應該都還有調整和改善的空間那也有一期檢討的這個必要性"},{"start":6612.339,"end":6628.291,"text":"司法院開完這個檢討會議也不應該只停留在研議或是期盼那我想請教秘書長對於減輕法官的這個工作負擔的目標究竟何時能夠提出具體的改善措施有沒有規劃改善的這個時間表"},{"start":6629.714,"end":6646.001,"text":"我們就是在一個內之內會呼應法官協會他提出來的就包括這個有關合理的結案還有就是說一些嚴考部分還有辦案期限要著量延長這樣"},{"start":6654.057,"end":6666.37,"text":"不只法官,基層司法人員的處境也是應該要被受到尊重另外我們看到苗栗的地院有書記官疑是因為過勞而不幸病逝"},{"start":6667.031,"end":6693.027,"text":"那書記官的職責是將法官檢察官的工作予以書面格式化那書記官們在處理繁雜的這個行政文書工作現在也受到案件量暴增的這個影響每天處在水深火熱當中甚至導致身體出了狀況那我想請教秘書長對於書記官的過勞以及如何來改善書記官的勞動環境司法院有沒有相關的這個檢討"},{"start":6695.815,"end":6703.239,"text":"我們這一部分當然就是說會齊頭並進關於人力部分當然我們會盡量來請行政部門、人總部門來協助內部我們也會盡量就是說"},{"start":6717.206,"end":6717.226,"text":"好．"},{"start":6732.725,"end":6747.86,"text":"那如果我們從人員上來看書記官似乎還有難以留才的這個問題我們從近幾年的這個數據上四等法院書記官的缺額是越來越開越多了入局率也幾乎暴增"},{"start":6748.541,"end":6751.642,"text":"司法院是否有掌握同仁離職的實際原因並擬定相應的流財措施?"},{"start":6768.418,"end":6792.025,"text":"我跟委員報告我們每一個同仁不是只有書記官司法人員離職我們都會做離職原因的調查然後來彙整並且檢討改進然後我們書記官的問題就是司法人員最大的問題是他有很多核心工作不是一般的非限職人員可以取代跟行政機關不一樣"},{"start":6792.645,"end":6821.622,"text":"像我們的很多像書記官開庭打筆錄這件事情還有在筆錄上簽名這種都是具有訴訟法上效力的就沒有辦法用一般的就是所謂職務代理人或者是說非限職人員委外人力來取代所以現在問題在核心人力沒辦法取代所以為什麼我們一直拜託說要爭取中央機關總原額的提高因為這個法官增加輔助人力就要加兩倍所以等於一個法官增加要乘以三倍的原額如果原額不增加的話那司法機關真的沒有辦法再"},{"start":6822.922,"end":6839.649,"text":"我們還是希望我們司法院能夠這個更加來重視我們基層司法人員的這個處境並且能夠加以善加這個來改善我們讓我們所有的人才可以留在"},{"start":6840.169,"end":6858.122,"text":"司法體系當中來服務那也讓這個同仁在合理工作中負擔合理的工作量才是長久之計另外我想我們剛剛有談到這個原額的部分我想從過去的討論當中不管是司法院還是法務部都有共同一個點就是人力不足"},{"start":6858.502,"end":6882.96,"text":"那希望增加人力的部分從現行的總額、元額來看屬於第三類的司法院及所屬機關元額最高為15000人作為第四類的這個法務部所屬的這個檢查機關則為6900人那未來如果要再增加元額我想請教秘書長我們這個人事總署是否會支持"},{"start":6884.554,"end":6907.622,"text":"我們目前我們當然盡力就請他們來協助但是我覺得我還是很期盼就是說可能要要一起來面對這種問題因為關於人民的司法受益錢這個是整個政府應該要要一起去面對的"},{"start":6909.113,"end":6936.572,"text":"那當然也有另外有提出限量婚案的這種聲音但是我們會覺得這個不管怎樣司法受益前這個要政府我們全體有關的相關政府機關應該要共同來面對共同面對這個一定要一起克服不是只有我們我們司法部門的責任好 謝謝秘書長那我同時也請教我們部長那對於我們法務部的部分我們原額增加的部分"},{"start":6937.026,"end":6965.325,"text":"是否也會受到我們這個人事總署的這個支持謝謝委員關心那法務部所屬的機關尤其是檢查機關人力不足確實也是存在的那我們現在檢查機關的法定員額是6900位那目前剩下的只剩下286位的員額而已事實上也是缺乏要再增加總員法能夠修正提高所以我們也會努力的來爭取"},{"start":6967.108,"end":6990.678,"text":"好 所以那對於我們這個司法院還有法務部的這個人力配置和運用我們都予以尊重那由於人力的不可能無限制的這種補充重點還是極大化原額運用的這種效益那配合有效減輕負荷的這種措施讓司法人員的壓力能夠確實得到舒緩我相信這才是我們要"},{"start":6991.878,"end":7017.591,"text":"為這些同仁來解決他們工作上的這個壓力的問題最大的一個目標我也請我們秘書長跟部長一定要這個竭盡所能來幫助我們基層這個同仁的這種問題來面對一起來面對好 以上好 謝謝好 謝謝陳委員 謝謝部長 謝謝秘書長先做預告稍後在吳委員私謠詢答完畢後休息五分鐘"},{"start":7018.692,"end":7019.232,"text":"主席、秘書長吳秘書長"},{"start":7041.204,"end":7055.627,"text":"秘書長,剛剛這個黃國昌總召有提到那因應如果政權總統要交接是不是司法院院長依憲政慣例就強制應當邀一併來請辭請問有這樣的憲政慣例嗎?這個...這個...我...據我的認知是..."},{"start":7069.175,"end":7089.831,"text":"我的認知是應該是沒有啦我們就回到憲法的解釋建議黃國昌總召您學法律去看一看大法官釋字第419號到底司法院院長或是五院院長要不要依循著新任總統來一起來請辭大法官419號很清楚的告訴我們"},{"start":7090.692,"end":7112.901,"text":"即便請辭那是一種禮貌性的請辭而不是一個強制的請辭所以在法律的解釋上也應當好好去看看大法官解釋的條文而我個人進一步的演繹在政權的交接但是蔡英文總統交接給賴清德未來的總統這畢竟還是同一個政黨"},{"start":7113.741,"end":7114.302,"text":"我先發表我的意見,您同意我的論點嗎?"},{"start":7139.983,"end":7144.087,"text":"我個人同意好 謝謝秘書長那進入今天的主題我個人認為現在所發生很多司法人員壓力過大那不幸選擇輕生的狀況其實除了是為司法人員來減壓更重要的是也是要正面來提升司法品質"},{"start":7161.084,"end":7164.586,"text":"我想這個面向是國人更關切的所以從育才、攬才、留才的角度我們都要一起周延來討論下一頁我提出了五個建議很多也不是我的創建我只是把它歸納為司法人員減壓我們需要再做人力的改革"},{"start":7181.314,"end":7198.987,"text":"第一大建議,你就要去攬財嘛,對不對?增補司法人力,那你去調整組織元額,我當然支持修法,而雙方政府機關總元額法要修就來修。但是呢,在現有的考試禁用跟多元禁用雙款旗下,我們是不是可以做得更多做得更好,在攬財面。"},{"start":7200.368,"end":7224.685,"text":"第2個建議是我們是不是可以考慮對於司法人員的待遇是不是能夠做調整來增加人員的留任意願我不曉得你們有沒有研究這個部分我的經驗我長期在教育文化委員會我們今天討論司法人員減壓其實在大學的教授、副教授、助理教授的減壓工作量太大其實都"},{"start":7226.4,"end":7252.354,"text":"是同樣可以適用這個經驗所以教育部提出了很多為大學的高教的老師提升他的待遇給予他新的誘因比如說我們給予了彈性薪資的方案我們給予其他的研究的補貼都是讓這些現役的教育人員今天在這裡是司法人員增加他的留才的意願我想待遇面也是一個可以考慮的面向 對不對"},{"start":7253.274,"end":7278.337,"text":"第三個建議．如何來有效解決濫訴的問題．減少案源他跟第四點是相關的．就是落實金字塔型的訴訟制度．來適度調整裁判的費用我稍後來跟您論述細節最後一個．我們現在有的員工這個EAP協助方案．是不是接得住每一個司法人員的具體需求呢五大面向"},{"start":7279.238,"end":7279.638,"text":"司法人員的出走潮"},{"start":7299.974,"end":7320.3,"text":"針對司法院的法院人員近10年的離職統計出走575人法務部的檢察機關人員近10年出走431人加起來司法人員的出走潮是近10年破千人所以我才說剛剛的五大改進方案要趕快來做"},{"start":7321.34,"end":7338.296,"text":"我們要遇財、攬財、和其困難那你至少留財要做得精準一點可是人才留不住啊司法人員不管是司法院的法官人員或者是我們的法務部主管的檢查機關的人員近十年出走破千人這當然要慎重來因應他下一頁"},{"start":7343.277,"end":7354.176,"text":"我進一步來看這是你們提供的資料司法人員的缺人荒啊就法官含庭長需求人數這是2024新的數字就缺了499個法官"},{"start":7356.209,"end":7375.28,"text":"那連同整個輔助人力、司法事務官乃至於你們家事調查官等等司法機關迫切需求緣額表2024年你們需求人力是5536人法官就500人欸這怕死人欸那這是你們提供的資料這是一個嚴重的缺人的警訊嘛好 下一頁"},{"start":7384.741,"end":7389.063,"text":"那以剛剛那個表來講光法官就欠499人將近500人我再以這20年來我分兩個10年來統計前一個10年2004到2013年法官的增減人數前一個10年只增加301人"},{"start":7402.791,"end":7416.478,"text":"後一個十年就是2014到現在的2023﹖法官增加的人員變一半捏只增加155人換言之我們的懶財比起前一個十年少了一半"},{"start":7417.853,"end":7435.869,"text":"所以呢,花20年才能夠補上539人左右可是光法官你現在很珠息就欠被給我罷了所以換言之你要再補個20年才有可能把它補滿所以剛剛的五大建議五個建議缺一不可"},{"start":7436.75,"end":7465.687,"text":"我這些背景研究都是再一次分享給大家讓社會好好來面對這一個我們不得不面對的真相為了讓我們的司法品質更好可以攬財可以留財下一頁好那我們來講攬財考試禁用跟多元禁用秘書長你覺得哪一個禁用的這個效益高一點不要講效益啦不要把人力當效益不要把人才當效益但是以他的養成"},{"start":7466.966,"end":7469.67,"text":"主要來源還是考試禁用但是事實上一個考試禁用大概你培育他的人力至少要8年的時間"},{"start":7483.444,"end":7505.42,"text":"好 你這裡有嘛 對不對之前研習候補期間跟市署期間加起來八檔啦但是多元禁用時間就大幅的減少因為它很多是現役有其他經驗的律師轉任啦 司法人員轉任等等所以多元禁用是一個急佔力下一頁可是問題就在這裡啦考試禁用6乘5"},{"start":7506.821,"end":7520.474,"text":"你的多元禁用只有3乘5集戰力的補強只有3乘5就代表又回到我剛剛的五大建議了你是不是讓大家不要這麼重的loading然後薪水可以合理一點那個訴訟的這個案源減少一點"},{"start":7525.198,"end":7540.865,"text":"這都是關鍵所以我們在考試禁用之外多元禁用可不可以給誘因教育部就是這樣幹的我們不只在台灣要讓高教人才從民間攬進來我們還要跟國外攬才所以教育部開啟了很多"},{"start":7541.405,"end":7541.445,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":7570.526,"end":7591.864,"text":"好 這就案源案量了這剛剛可能很多委員都提到我就講重點平均啊 我們每年新收案363萬件其中314萬是民事案件49萬是刑事案件每年的新收案還不管他的手上的未結案件平均每一位法官我是扣除最高法院的法官跟院長喔"},{"start":7592.745,"end":7612.153,"text":"平均每位法官是1比1665就一個人手上的新收案件加未結案件一個人要搞1665件至少這樣壓力不大才怪我不想跳槽才怪我不想出走才怪這都是問題所以如何減少案源呢下一頁"},{"start":7614.023,"end":7626.552,"text":"這個我也是去調查才了解我真的是司法法制委員的菜鳥我能做的就是不斷的去研究找資料這是我看到的民事訴訟裁判費的基準收費基準21年沒有調秘書長21年沒有調對不對"},{"start":7630.717,"end":7651.927,"text":"所以現在這個訴訟的成本就假啦非財產案件第一審只要三千塊第二三審只要交四千五百塊財產類的這個民事訴訟的裁判費的試算我這裡都試算出來了他依不同的這個訴訟標的金額標的金額所以這21年沒有改這能不能調整啊這個我們民事我們會研議來要不然大家覺得"},{"start":7661.533,"end":7668.225,"text":"走法院成本很低我就隨便告我今天看中嘉賓不太開心我就"},{"start":7672.215,"end":7692.44,"text":"委員這部分我們會研議調整但是因為訴訟費用的徵收跟法律輔助是相結合對我懂我懂這是要連帶去思考但是如果以一個21年沒有調整我也一併提供給你們思考看看好嗎進到最後一項"},{"start":7693.22,"end":7717.74,"text":"我剛講的流財、育財、懶財是前端、最後端心理健康的關懷方案我很快把我觀察到的問題分享給你們這裡包括法務部也有法務部那個問題更大法院、司法院確實有心理健康關懷方案每一個人最高補助每次2500塊一年最多可以看8次你如果有特殊需求可以去看12次的心理諮商非常好可是只有法官"},{"start":7718.641,"end":7732.137,"text":"法官優先沒有你如果是司法事務官、書記官、法官助理跟其他職工如果需要去適用的話需要向他該庭的院長申請右邊這個是你們的協助方案的公告"},{"start":7733.406,"end":7733.866,"text":"檢察官沒有"},{"start":7763.157,"end":7772.742,"text":"法務部也有有有一個員工協助方案就是上面的協助方案可是沒有跟剛剛司法官一樣去藉助外部的心理諮商我都列出來了"},{"start":7774.526,"end":7774.907,"text":"現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":7800.219,"end":7806.861,"text":"臺北地院對臺北地院說法官以外人員需要經過院長合作好不好臺北地院臺北地院好不好"},{"start":8853.159,"end":8857.682,"text":"現在繼續開會接下來請黃委員三三發言請司法院秘書長有請吳秘書長秘書長,我也身為法律人在民國81年考上律師"},{"start":8881.804,"end":8905.339,"text":"司法人員的過勞其實不是新聞了而且一直都在討論那司法改革這麼多年蔡英文總統上任最重要的是大力推動了司法改革那其中一項就是要減輕法官的工作負擔秘書長為什麼八年來我們還在一直討論減輕法官的工作負擔您覺得原因為什麼還在討論同樣的問題討論了七八年"},{"start":8907.202,"end":8909.124,"text":"臺灣民意基金會公布的"},{"start":8922.418,"end":8943.633,"text":"蔡總統八年來推動司法改革的民意反應從你看到2017年大概不滿意度是55%經過七年多八年的改革我們現在的不滿意度還是高達54%也就是中間雖然有上上下下但是顯然沒有很大的進步那比較嚴重的我覺得是"},{"start":8944.774,"end":8966.258,"text":"這個部分不滿意高達54.6%滿意的其實僅僅35%也就是從簡單的來說他可能剛剛及格而已這個比較嚴重的是對於司法改革大概是蔡總統8年來他所有的是在滿意度裡面最低的那接下來其實我們今天要跟你討論的是剛剛講的"},{"start":8969.246,"end":8990.377,"text":"案子增加人沒增加所以我們還在討論減輕法官工作負擔最近有非常多的司法官不管是他跳樓或者是重病那有司法官因為這樣而離世那非常多的法律人包括民間司改團體其實都還在一樣在檢討為什麼的法官還是過勞"},{"start":8991.343,"end":8993.564,"text":"1.從105年到112年,我們的新收案件從324萬件,現在已經到了405萬件,也就是增加了整整25%,一年增加80萬件新案。這是"},{"start":9009.266,"end":9025.562,"text":"有數字的但是我們增加的人力呢從你們調給我的資料是你只增加了124個人也就是80多萬件的案子你增加的人力遠遠沒有辦法追上你案件增加的數量所以秘書長你們就是人不夠對嗎"},{"start":9028.101,"end":9031.826,"text":"現在的問題是總原額還有我們對於新案他沒有辦法減量這是可能越來越惡性循環的原因"},{"start":9042.95,"end":9063.053,"text":"那我這邊要講的是我剛才我們看到你調的資料很有趣我們希望了解一下每個月每個月法官他的負擔有多少你們現在的數字說一個月不管是地方法院、民庭或刑庭或少年法庭少年法庭多一點的九十幾件然後一般民刑庭大概都六十幾件但是"},{"start":9064.334,"end":9092.503,"text":"秘書長,我的同學,我們有法律系同學的群組沒有人相信法官一個月新案只有60件,中位數是多少?平均數是60,中位數是多少?因為這個是連同這個一般的檢疫案件是,所以平均下來,我覺得還是一樣手上一兩百件一個月案件的是大有人在"},{"start":9093.143,"end":9109.884,"text":"第2個他我就常跟很多新進要念法律系的人說如果叫你一天寫一篇作文你寫得出來嗎很難寫一天要寫三篇作文一個要解一百件案件三篇作文每一個字都不能錯每一個事實都不能錯連證人的證詞都要"},{"start":9111.846,"end":9141.246,"text":"引用的正正道道地地,絕對不能出錯這種作文誰寫得出來判決書就是一篇很好的作文所以秘書長我今天有幾個建議這是我們法律系同學、法官、律師一起在討論的幾個做法你沒有辦法加人你只能減量怎麼減量有幾個案子我們認為說應該可以減量第一個他們認為很多法人登記的案子一定要到法院嘛可以修法的趕快修"},{"start":9142.866,"end":9165.076,"text":"2、票據公式催告這都是一個程序問題這個程序問題能不能在行政單位或其他的機關就能夠減量不用事事都到法院去這也是目前為止我認為可以盡量減少法官或在法院裡面做其他專責單位去處理就好不要讓法官去做這種程序性的東西3、收養"},{"start":9166.957,"end":9192.67,"text":"收養很多都已經寫好收養的契約但是他必須要再經過法院認可他也會影響法院整個在家事法庭他調查跟了解的狀況他的其實某個程度當事人都已經同意了可是我們還要經過一個程序第3個第4個是現在濫訴罰環的執行我看到你們的案子說你們有罰了一些不肖的當事人不肖的律師然後只罰了200多件"},{"start":9194.051,"end":9212.444,"text":"跟剛剛加的80萬件還是差很遠第四個專家參審的制度我們希望說有一些像現在精神衛生法已經有讓專家進來那我們希望說有一些工程、金融、智慧財產的案件某個層次讓專家來參審減輕法官的壓力"},{"start":9215.871,"end":9235.756,"text":"那第6個是我認為最重要的我們最高法院最會做的就是用發回跟審從來不依照相關的訴訟法自為判決這個自為判決有些最高法院我相信他們已經有定見了可是我們現在用發回作為唯一的方法幾乎自為判決的比例非常少"},{"start":9236.596,"end":9263.486,"text":"最後一個是債務清理債務清理現在是法院最大宗那我今天再口頭補充一個就是現在因為保險也被列為要保人的資產所以整個強制執行法光保險去查保險、封保險、解約保險就成為現在執行法院最大的惡夢所以秘書長如果你沒辦法加人這些減量我希望"},{"start":9264.386,"end":9266.427,"text":"司法院從今天開始檢討剛剛講的這幾項,你做得到嗎?"},{"start":9294.266,"end":9294.967,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9310.485,"end":9328.124,"text":"法院人力來做訴訟有必要有法院有實質認定的部分讓法院來做其他有行政單位可以行政單位做至於再清一波地方的消災中心因為我們在各個執行處的成立的消災中心目前是士林跟台中"},{"start":9329.565,"end":9334.186,"text":"沒關係 如果可以的話找方法否則永遠都在討論法官怎麼減量如果你不能減量你又加不了人這件事情我們可能會再討論30年"},{"start":9358.971,"end":9371.155,"text":"是,那專家參審的部分,我們目前有專家諮詢的制度可以運用,以上報告好的,謝謝,拜託秘書長,這幾項東西請你一個月給我一個簡單的回應,好嗎?是是,好,謝謝好,謝謝我們黃委員,謝謝秘書長接下來,有請楊委員、瓊英發言,請"},{"start":9393.242,"end":9396.966,"text":"謝謝主席 楊全發言 邀請秘書長當我們看到電視"},{"start":9403.655,"end":9427.268,"text":"二十幾歲的法官發生了這樣的事情我們真的很難過要培養一位法官那是何其不容易但是憾事還是發生那更離譜的是憾事發生之後我們又看到媒體上面說我們司法院請法官休息半天去走一走是不是"},{"start":9431.583,"end":9453.916,"text":"這個也是就是說出於善意其中之一嘛方案但是你認為當漢市發生的時候我們告訴法官說請你們都要休息半天出去走一走這樣可以解決問題嗎這個就是說是請就是說能夠多注意一些運動"},{"start":9455.737,"end":9464.2,"text":"本席也絕對同意是善意但是本席跟你討論在我們看到我們看不到更積極的方案來協助你應該是去研討怎麼樣要協助我們這些人員應該要提出方案"},{"start":9482.549,"end":9508.866,"text":"善意當然需要但是如果只有半天讓他們走一走運動半天就可以解決問題不會導致現在這個現象所以我們看到基本的這個數字你告訴我們從107年到112年我們的這個加持條件的部分通通每一個項目都是增加比例都增加 對不對你告訴我們的數字在這裡而且我們也看到"},{"start":9510.702,"end":9520.222,"text":"這個訴訟的比例也通通都是在增加數字告訴我們是每一年逐年在增加但是沒有告訴我們方案"},{"start":9521.414,"end":9545.353,"text":"接下來我好不容易就看到您提出的迫切需求緣額的總會表那現在怎麼辦呢我們好不容易看出來期盼人總能夠協助提高緣額上限你這樣就對了你明明白白"},{"start":9547.318,"end":9574.637,"text":"每一年的增加數量一直在增加而且比例增加的讓我們很憂心很憂心但是呢好不容易你提出了有為的政府應該要解決這個問題啊所以你要大聲講出來啊而不是只有說你們每一個人休息半天去走一走就算了我記得在葉金鳳女士擔任部長的時候我帶隊到我們台中地檢啊"},{"start":9576.192,"end":9603.106,"text":"部長在這裡我們去看了我發覺這嚇死人了案件這麼多三書民眾書檢察官書法官書社會大眾書不可以如此所以當時是首批第一次助理人員而且法務部還慢了一年這個司法官啊司法院啊還比較早他早一年先讓助理人員先進駐"},{"start":9606.011,"end":9633.994,"text":"第1屆法務部還慢一年還科技慢了一年所以從那時候開始我一直關注我說當人民有困難的時候那政府要怎麼協助我們最終的法院判決是還人民的一個公道這是我們非常尊敬的這是民主的真諦但是我們看到竟然是這麼樣的民主真諦竟然發生了這樣的憾事"},{"start":9635.253,"end":9661.229,"text":"而且我們提出的人員,我們全力支持也請秘書長,您必須要好好的提出好好的溝通因為你唯一從根源去解決,要不然不可能一個法官、一個檢察官,一天、一個月幾十件案件這樣你自己寫都寫不出來了"},{"start":9662.694,"end":9682.709,"text":"那怎麼也有辦法精進呢所以你必須要從根源去做嘛對不對所以我是很呼籲期盼今天任總要代表來能夠把這個任總代表在哪裡請你也上來請能夠把這個聲音帶回去他不是帶回去他必須來在哪裡專委在哪裡來謝謝任總現在非常重要啊專委"},{"start":9692.622,"end":9720.249,"text":"我想不管藍綠白大家都一定支持因為你不能擺爛的放在那裡啊你逼死了法官逼死了檢察官沒有用啊對不對人民最重要的最後一道防線就是司法嘛司法公立司法中立那怎麼辦來今天你聽到這個提出來的這個數字你們預計要怎麼做"},{"start":9722.074,"end":9729.86,"text":"民眾所需、社會所需政府要解決問題不管修法多困難只要大家有共識就沒有困難了如果我們還一直說這個修法很困難那立法院要做什麼"},{"start":9749.389,"end":9776.839,"text":"我們已經慎重提出而且看到法官這麼悲傷的事情發生所以拜託你一定要把這個表格趕快拿回去一定要趕快好好的來討論好不好我覺得這很重要啦其實我也可以建議司法委員會我們趕快開一個公聽會讓社會大眾更了解法務部跟司法院他們所需要他們所欠缺的"},{"start":9777.779,"end":9787.062,"text":"你唯一從根源去解決你才能夠真正讓民眾至少還有一點點對社會爭議的一個期待啦好不好"},{"start":9788.547,"end":9810.537,"text":"民主黨你有精力啦因為這個涉及到人民的受益錢啊政府機關應該一體要來克服啦對你這樣講就對了啦你要勇敢站出來大聲啦就像當時我那個葉金鳳部長的時候我一去我一看了我嚇一跳啊那些案件怎麼可能那你至少要一個助理人員來協助嘛所以當時就這樣定了"},{"start":9813.803,"end":9814.524,"text":"謝謝秘書長、謝謝專門委員、也謝謝楊委員接下來有請林委員、世明發言"},{"start":9839.411,"end":9839.431,"text":"財務部長"},{"start":9849.273,"end":9873.922,"text":"委員好部長好部長我想今天大家很關心這個有關死刑的議題我想我也針對幾個比較嚴肅的一個議題來救教部長請你表示您的看法我想這個政府公共政策的擬定是否要參考民意當然要一定要參考民意那何謂民意大多數的民眾意見"},{"start":9879.787,"end":9903.096,"text":"民主政治的本質是建立在主權在民的理念上政府的公共政策必須符合民意民意又稱為公義亦可稱之為輿論學者凱伊對民意所下的定義是民意是指那些意見所構成而政府應慎重加以注意的意見"},{"start":9905.172,"end":9921.457,"text":"所以民意是我們政府未來擬定各項政策,我們必須去加以參考的重要依據所以第二個問題請教部長,死刑作為法定刑是否為我國現在目前的刑事政策?"},{"start":9922.503,"end":9941.797,"text":"目前死刑是法定刑之一所以我想這個是很明確的所以我們的刑事政策是這個有死刑嘛就是支持死刑嘛目前是他有法律的規定所以我們就是依法執行依法來辦理"},{"start":9943.959,"end":9968.472,"text":"第三個問題請問死刑制度我們已經在司法院釋制第194號、263號、476號等歷次大法官會議解釋核限那先問部長好了就是說你知道說這些這幾號解釋說出死刑是核限性的一個解釋的意旨大概是怎樣部長知道嗎您可以講得出來嗎"},{"start":9970.477,"end":9998.564,"text":"這幾號的解釋都是認為死刑的規定本身是核限的那現在目前整個情勢並沒有很大的改變而且民意大部分也支持所以在法務部的立場認為死刑的規定還是維持核限但是他的主要的核心的理由他的解釋為什麼認為核限符合憲法的哪幾個原則這個部長你知道嗎我們可以查得到"},{"start":9999.597,"end":10025.436,"text":"我大概跟部長分享我想這個過去大法官會議的解釋的認定是說他認為死刑作為法定刑沒有違憲的理由因為強調說死刑是維護我們國家安全、社會秩序及增進公共利益所必要與憲法第15條的生命權以及23條的比例原則並無抵觸"},{"start":10028.478,"end":10042.803,"text":"主要的解釋意旨是認為符合憲法的比例原則以及對於生命權的尊重並沒有違反憲法相關的對於生命權基本權維護的看法"},{"start":10047.265,"end":10058.041,"text":"所以我想就叫部長所以我們現在的大法官如果要做出第4次的解釋還能推翻過去3次的合憲性解釋嗎?"},{"start":10060.545,"end":10087.121,"text":"當然要尊重大法官他的看法因為每個大法官他也有自己的看法當然要經過合議事先出來以後大法官也可以表示不同的意見當然我們了解但是我們現在講說現在的大法官又推翻過去大法官他所做出來的合憲解釋以目前我們的憲政制度大法官可以這樣自議為之嗎"},{"start":10089.022,"end":10096.908,"text":"他可以去打臉過去的大法官嗎?部長您的看法吧您就講您自己學法律您的看法你自己的看法認為這樣子"},{"start":10099.076,"end":10101.137,"text":"大法官這樣質疑是可以的嗎?"},{"start":10129.296,"end":10136.344,"text":"國家所擬定的立法者所擬定的刑事政策你可以去加以否決嗎?可以嗎?"},{"start":10138.229,"end":10164.083,"text":"大法官的職權就是要審視目前的法例有沒有違背憲法但是部長我剛一直跟你講了嘛你擬定相關的形式政策目前我們的形式政策就符合我們現在的主流名義嘛所以現在的大法官你要推翻現行的形式政策去這個違背我們現在的主流名義這個是妥當的嗎?正當的嗎?大法官可以這樣嗎?"},{"start":10166.277,"end":10194.526,"text":"每個大法官他可以表達自己的意見嘛所以大法官最後做的釋憲結果還可以把不同意見書附在後面所以這個問題就一直就讓我們陷入一個漩渦裡面大法官過去的大法官是認為合憲現在的大法官認為不合憲然後他就是自己要去做違背主流民意的一個看法如果我想我們行事政策如果要改變要跟著我們社會的主流民意嘛"},{"start":10195.006,"end":10214.368,"text":"然後由立法者他去決定要不要依照我們的民意建立出相關的一個形式的立法符合我們政策的一個目標嗎但是大法官他要去越權做出這種完全違背民意違背我們現行形式政策的一種解釋您認為正當嗎"},{"start":10217.042,"end":10242.712,"text":"沒有錯,你認為正當嗎?我們都是法律人啦我不曉得大法官他的法律是念的特別好還是怎麼樣真的怎麼會有大法官會一直這樣去推翻過去幾位非常專業、非常有重望的大法官的解釋假設他今天把這個解釋為會不會解釋為違憲我們不知道假設解釋出說這個死刑是違憲的我們真的不可想像說這種"},{"start":10246.509,"end":10253.182,"text":"羅賢要羅賢到什麼時候以後第5屆如果第5次解釋的時候大法官可不可以推翻第4次的法官的解釋"},{"start":10256.604,"end":10285.071,"text":"委員也知道嘛,我們讀法律的時候常常一個法律的見解都會有假說、以說、秉說、折衷說各種說都有,我們都要一一尊重嘛所以我是希望大法官今天正要聽到我們的聲音你要尊重主流民意尊重我們現行的刑事政策你也支持現在的刑事政策嘛對不對,部長您個人也認為現行的刑事政策以及我們現在的立法就是我們是支持實行的嘛"},{"start":10285.831,"end":10295.154,"text":"我們法務部的立場就是認為目前的法律規定是合憲的好 謝謝 部長你請委那主席我最後再問一下司法院 秘書長委員好秘書長我想跟你討論今天的這個負擔的問題我想我們大家對於法官負擔的問題而造成我們那麼多精英的法官的責損"},{"start":10314.315,"end":10335.173,"text":"大家都很難過我想這些精英司法官他們的家屬在暗夜中的哭泣我不是到司法院我沒有注意到這麼不容易考上司法官結果去走向親生這是讓我們學法律的人無法想像的可見他的工作壓力是多麼的大"},{"start":10336.922,"end":10362.478,"text":"我想今天我們這個專題是在討論說如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運用以降低基層司法體系負擔的問題但是我一直呼籲的一個問題現在不管我們怎麼做如果我們沒有從源頭去做相關的一個教育去讓我們的年輕人、讓我們的孩子從小升職法制的觀念"},{"start":10363.579,"end":10386.66,"text":"那我個人這個我還是講我們社會的就是一直循環就是因為教育沒有做好才會造成我們最後一道這個防線很可能就被攻破所以才會造成我們大家法官因為案子不斷的增加壓力不斷的變大所以大家沒辦法負荷嘛所以如何減少案源"},{"start":10387.801,"end":10396.891,"text":"這個部分除了我們剛剛很多委員提的很多的一個方案以外我個人是建議法制教育這部分可能要做得更多"},{"start":10399.051,"end":10424.917,"text":"所以金馬丹司法院有沒有跟教育部來合作怎麼樣把我們法制的種子散佈在各個校園這個我們有在加強因為我們有特別成立新鮮處新倫仙島處法治新倫仙島處這一部分有跟我們年輕朋友跟我們學校都有編導真的我真的"},{"start":10425.797,"end":10449.705,"text":"中心建議了,因為我們法律上真的我覺得如果沒有從教育面著手的話突然要讓這個我們司法的最後一道防線就是接到案子就要審就要審就要審沒完沒了啦怎麼樣都很難很難減少啦案子就是不斷的來啊這些違法犯紀的事情因為這些人對於法治的觀念真的太欠缺了為什麼會犯罪"},{"start":10451.175,"end":10451.675,"text":"接下來有請吳委員中線發言"},{"start":10490.839,"end":10517.676,"text":"我們請司法院秘書長、法務部長有請吳秘書長還有蔡部長這邊我先就叫部長部長我想說大家我們都很清楚檢察官工作的核心是內勤外勤、開庭、寫書類我今天收到一個報告每個檢察官目前的說案量是110件我想部長應該知道這個狀況"},{"start":10523.031,"end":10549.365,"text":"增他鄉案因為我們是統計這個比較重要的就是各種包括其他這些案件加起來大概110件那我們講那個增治案件增治案件我想桃園地檢跟新北地檢常常月收都是超過100件我想部長應該很清楚這個狀況那我跟部長報告一下我們當年分發的時候"},{"start":10550.265,"end":10559.708,"text":"我在民國90年分發的時候那個時候我記得我那時候看到報表一個月增案是30幾件那現在的話已經變成這個數字那我離開檢方是在民國109年但是108年到去年的這個數據以新收案件來說"},{"start":10571.491,"end":10596.326,"text":"全國的新收案件漲了47%也就是這四年多裡面全國檢方的新收案件漲了47%這跟房價的漲幅都差不多了房價是七年九十幾%嘛那檢方的案件是四年多漲了47%我想說這已經到一個完全不合理的狀況了那一個案子我想我們都知道"},{"start":10597.381,"end":10620.541,"text":"他必須要開庭他收案開庭訊問然後要寫書類要去思考也就是說這樣平均下來一個案子如果每一天超時工作12個小時的話3個小時才能結掉一件那這個會不會已經超過正常的負荷更何況有很多案子"},{"start":10621.687,"end":10640.726,"text":"我們講一個簡單的啦你說酒醉駕車那個就像寫聯絡簿一樣那麼簡單但是我們有更多的案子其實是要花腦子去思考更多那個人民之間的糾紛其實那個都沒有那麼容易所以說每一個案子在偵查的時候都很辛苦部長這個部分你有什麼想法"},{"start":10641.474,"end":10651.639,"text":"我同意委員的看法因為數字只是平均而已其實每一個案子的複雜度跟簡易是完全不一樣的有一個案子有時候需要好幾"},{"start":10652.927,"end":10654.068,"text":"我之前處理過一個貪污案件那那個案件一個案子裡面是"},{"start":10677.361,"end":10698.938,"text":"有十幾個廠商被告到最後超過20個我書類寫了一個多禮拜然後100多頁那這個也是一個案子所以說我們到最後會不會變成是檢察官或法官他們都去想辦法去追求那些簡單的案子或者是把一個原本應該複雜的案子去把它簡易化"},{"start":10699.999,"end":10723.305,"text":"這個我想說部長這很重要的一件事情其實這幾年啊大家常常在罵一個東西在罵恐龍法官、恐龍檢察官那我們知道就像我剛說的一個案子我們要月卷開庭、調資料還要寫書類這幾年我不敢跟著大家罵因為我知道問題出在哪裡大家就是一直罵恐龍法官、恐龍檢察官但是我跟各位"},{"start":10724.552,"end":10741.18,"text":"說明一件事情就好像今天記者一天只能寫兩個稿我要你今天一天寫出十個稿你寫出來的東西品質就會出問題那一樣你用工廠來看好了如果今天這個工廠符合勞基法一個月生產30套設備"},{"start":10742.941,"end":10768.684,"text":"那我我叫大家不睡覺不休息不陪家人一個月生產能夠經到60號設備但是今天老闆叫你生產到120號設備呢你出來品質良率就變很差今天我看到的司法是這樣所以與其大家一直罵說你這司法有問題司法怎麼樣你要去思考到底我們今天給司法人員什麼樣的環境你發生了什麼事情"},{"start":10769.878,"end":10797.614,"text":"我們就像我們去看醫生我們覺得看醫生醫生要跟我問診問十分鐘結果沒有啊人越來越多剩五分鐘到最後你現在去看診有一分鐘就請你出去了那你能夠看到什麼我們今天我們一直說法官、檢察官有問題腦子有問題結果你弄錯了是你給他的數字出了問題結果東西出來一塌糊塗好我必須講一個啦"},{"start":10800.031,"end":10827.136,"text":"我一直覺得當然我真的舉雙手贊成人力的部分一定要補足但是我想跟各位說一句話笨蛋問題在制度真的是制度出了問題尤其是我們幾年前的司法改革會議其實他把制度改得更複雜更亂結果不要跟我說司法改革成功司法改革成功與否你看為什麼"},{"start":10828.651,"end":10850.794,"text":"這幾年的司法改革改到司法官累到累到走不下去了或者是人民的滿意度越來越低你就不要跟我說司法改革成功就因為我一直覺得國民法官制度問題重重但是司法院你就是要硬推你也不去管到底"},{"start":10851.892,"end":10852.152,"text":"司法專業人員"},{"start":10868.18,"end":10891.258,"text":"高專業度的制度的修改你卻讓非常多非法律的人你可能找很多社運團體來這邊每個人就只聚焦在一個小問題上面然後要求制度修改但是制度跟制度制度內的每一個點都是環環相扣所以它很多國家的訴訟制度的修改是花了30年50年才慢慢有轉換結果我們這邊竟然是兩個月的會議開完全國大改"},{"start":10895.081,"end":10917.088,"text":"難怪到今天越改司法官累了半死司法官累了人生這條路走不下去然後累到現在中間站立最強的檢察官法官一堆人離職然後到最後我們補了很多新人他們經驗還需要慢慢培養補了很多新人進來案件量越來越多回過頭去罵司法怎麼變那麼爛"},{"start":10918.388,"end":10945.634,"text":"那我要跟各位報告你以為的司法改革是要改善人民對司法的信任度結果我們的司法改革改得人民對司法越來越不信任這是我看到的司法改革現在的狀況那累死了一堆法官檢察官我們自己一路這樣走過來我自己看得很清楚現在新分發的檢察官跟法官已經沒有時間去學辦案了"},{"start":10947.674,"end":10967.444,"text":"我們以前剛出來很好運我當年出來的時候案件量還算合理我還有時間去學怎麼辦案怎麼跟這些偵查機關、司法、警察相處怎麼樣帶領他們辦案現在新分發的我去跟他們聊天每一個都說每天都在加班寫書類每天都在加班看卷"},{"start":10968.064,"end":10994.066,"text":"他完全沒有辦法去學社會發生了什麼事結果他們就跟社會越來越脫節他們辦案的功力越來越弱他們出來的書類品質越來越差他們開庭的時間越來越短就司法的品質就越來越差我覺得變成今天這樣子我今天我是很沉痛的點出我們司法今天的問題在這裡我覺得這個是制度面的問題啦我真的是"},{"start":10994.987,"end":11017.254,"text":"制度面的問題那當然接下來我們還有比喻延長一年比喻延長一年之後這些軍事審判的東西目前都還在普通法院這個也加重了檢察官跟法官的工作量所以所有的東西你就是一直不停的加重加重再加重普通法院的法官跟檢察官的工作量"},{"start":11019.91,"end":11046.992,"text":"我想齁 這個制度的問題麻煩兩位長官一定要去思考該怎麼辦因為基層他不會把聲音告訴長官們長官們可能聽到的都是身邊幹部的人的想法但是我是一路基層做了20年我所有我現在跟我還在往來的這些法官檢察官同學們他們會告訴我第一手的他們痛苦的事情是什麼"},{"start":11048.926,"end":11073.192,"text":"講一個20幾年前要改交互結論制度去美國抄了一套交互結論制度來結果呢有沒有想過美國上訴是多困難啊很多學者說美國甚至只有一審是40審結果我們40審搞了兩個審計同一套制度玩了兩遍消耗多少人力物力害當事人花了多少錢請律師我們都不管"},{"start":11074.705,"end":11095.003,"text":"這個制度上面不是有很大的問題嗎你抄人家的制度就人家認為一個省級40省就要把它審理完畢上述二省有非常多的限制我就說甚至我們有學者把它歸類它叫做我們的法律省了叫做三省的法律省就我們同一套制度玩兩遍那那個意義在哪裡"},{"start":11097.27,"end":11110.25,"text":"這段時間我有跟法務部要很多資料啦那甚至我也說像譬如說職權還起訴處分職權送災的意義在哪我從數據上面來看一點價值都沒有但是卻搞垮了二審的檢察官"},{"start":11111.138,"end":11133.183,"text":"那一樣就法官而言 法官刑事訴訟、二審肥大政就把二審搞慘了 因為我們上訴有審極利益的問題所以 被告上訴 完全沒有什麼成本 他想上訴就上訴搞得二審案件一大堆法官類的半死那 我希望齁 就是"},{"start":11135.7,"end":11147.16,"text":"將來該除罪的我覺得就把它除罪化對人民沒有任何意義的東西就把它除罪化那還有司法院是不是能夠再健全一些中低收入戶的訴訟保障"},{"start":11149.496,"end":11177.205,"text":"後然後我們去提高一些訴訟費用該收費的標準讓有錢人來使用法院應該多交一點錢但是我們擴大訴訟救助的部分讓沒有錢的人也可以享受這個訴訟假性財產犯罪是不是應該要收費不要讓檢察官法官成為全國最大的連鎖討債集團這我以前當檢察官最痛恨的點就是一堆人把假性財產犯罪來叫我幫他討錢"},{"start":11178.94,"end":11203.019,"text":"這是大家 我想部長一定很清楚這是大家檢察官心裡的痛還有妨礙司法公正是不是我們應該要趕快把它建立起來因為我講到這個議題我自己心裡是感觸很深啦因為畢竟我是這樣子走過來的那我現在身邊的好朋友也幾乎都還是法官檢察官以前的同學"},{"start":11205.24,"end":11232.141,"text":"我想說我還是必須要替他們講講話部長或部長有沒有什麼想法謝謝委員指教委員是基層檢察官出身的我本人也是所以我非常了解檢察官現在陷入到工作負擔過重這樣的一個困境那我也想盡辦法來幫忙解決不但是在爭取能力而且在他案件的怎麼樣的簡化"},{"start":11234.002,"end":11261.339,"text":"包括我們書類不要用太多的這種敘述的方式能夠用格式化的方式來處理還有工作環境的改善我都是盡我最大的努力來完成謝謝部長部長委員這些提示我們都會都會加以來我想我剛講的只是很多改善方式的九牛一毛而已只是我這樣臨時想到了那最後30秒我講一個"},{"start":11264.239,"end":11284.325,"text":"選前啦就是我們這個所謂中國中共借選國安無法這個傳了很多里長那現在開始很多不起訴都出來了那我預測將來很多大量的無罪會出來我不是說這個案子這種案子一定不應該辦而是他很多將來能夠成罪的證據其實檢察官法官是拿不到他可能在"},{"start":11285.645,"end":11313.268,"text":"在那個中國那邊所以這種案子是不是要這樣子大規模的這麼處理照著人心惶惶好那這個為什麼我在這邊講因為他也相同的他造成了警察、調查官、法官、檢察官大量的工作量檢察官他可能要偵辦要起訴法官可能要合法搜索票都非常案件量都因為這些政治的問題增加很多那我是希望政治的手不要去介入到司法"},{"start":11314.77,"end":11334.269,"text":"因為我跟很多基層的同仁在聊天跟調查官聊天他們就跟我說我說你們幹嘛幹這個是我們在吃飯私下吃飯的時候他跟我說沒辦法上面有交代所以我想基層跟我講的好朋友跟我講的我比較相信是真的啦我不相信官方上面的說法好不好意思耽誤大家耽誤主席這麼多時間謝謝各位"},{"start":11338.534,"end":11348.781,"text":"接下來請陳培宇委員、陳培宇委員不在、陳培宇委員不在、鍾嘉斌、鍾嘉斌委員"},{"start":11359.792,"end":11375.461,"text":"主席、謝謝主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關司長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生有請司法院吳秘書長、民事廳周庭長、還有人事處的陳處長、還有法務部的蔡部長請蔡部長"},{"start":11380.057,"end":11406.224,"text":"秘書長好、部長好、廳長好、處長好先請教秘書長剛剛有委員問到在2016年有賴浩鳴院長、前院長跟蘇永欽前副院長他們向蔡英文總統辭職請問他們是因應著什麼樣的情況之下去表達是因為政黨輪替還是因為新總統就任還是什麼原因"},{"start":11408.89,"end":11427.888,"text":"當時雖然在五月份的時候有黨團提出訴求哪個黨團是時代力量黨團提出一個訴求就是希望說五月也是就是說有一個交接聲音大一點五月有一個交接然後呢就是希望說這兩位院長副院長辭職就五月份的時候但是"},{"start":11429.249,"end":11436.713,"text":"當時的賴浩鳴司法院長他是在7月11號才請辭總統沒有馬上處理他為什麼請辭?是因為新總統就任?他是因為什麼請辭?那他可能當時有"},{"start":11450.39,"end":11476.556,"text":"他任期到10月31號屆滿所以他 任期將屆請辭 任期將屆但是總統也是到他要將屆之前4天10月27號才准辭所以並沒有所謂的因為是在力量黨能提出說新總統就任要建立一個憲政慣例所以要求司法院政務院長向新任總統或像原任任命的總統請辭 沒有啦沒有慣例 所以那個賴浩鳴"},{"start":11479.617,"end":11480.197,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11497.457,"end":11525.787,"text":"從2020年開始是那這是不是造成我們法院上很大的一個工作壓力對執行處變成是一個比較大的壓力好那我請教一下部長而且集中在臺北地院跟士林地院這兩個地院特別嚴重好那請問蔡部長關於這一點我問過了保險局也問過了金管會他說他們曾經要說來修行政執行法來解決這個問題我先解釋一下什麼強制保單執行保單就是說那個"},{"start":11526.665,"end":11555.297,"text":"要保人他因為欠了債那他有個保單在保險公司那裡結果債權人要求保險公司把他的保單解約拿回這個保單的解約金或者準備金來抵付這個債務所以就申請強制執行大概部長這樣有沒有了解這是民事強制執行還是行政強制執行那你是負責行政強制執行行政執行法是哪裡"},{"start":11558.374,"end":11575.006,"text":"行政執行法是因為他欠這個工的對包括欠稅也是欠稅或是欠罰款這個才是金管會是希望你們修行政執行法把這個改一下不要讓這些保單的受益人因此而失去了你覺得是不是應該修保險法還是修行政執行法"},{"start":11575.691,"end":11580.558,"text":"這一點我們有提出說為了避免殺雞取卵因為保單的解約金可能完全無法抵付債權"},{"start":11591.853,"end":11607.524,"text":"因此可是受益人就貧困損失了,包括他的癌症險、他的一些健康險都因為主約被解約、副約就也消失了。那麼有人提出用介入權的方式,讓受益人他可以介入來償付解約金,這樣的一個修法方向,司法院支持嗎?"},{"start":11610.695,"end":11629.904,"text":"委員關於這個部分因為其實這個涉及整個保險政策的問題那麼如果要做改變的話如果儘管會做這個改變保險法修改你們支持嗎這個我們尊重如果在保險法裡面做改變我們很尊重好 謝謝兩位請回部長跟那個"},{"start":11632.646,"end":11650.508,"text":"我先請教一下秘書長部長請回有一個叫圖靈測試對不起我們看看這個這個民事執政量我們現在就是說與金管會保險局和受險公會來協調統一格式流程降低執行法院的壓力你同意嗎在這個修法之前先做這個事情"},{"start":11653.917,"end":11656.738,"text":"圖靈測試區分回答者是人還是機器人?法官是人類還是判決產生器?"},{"start":11673.502,"end":11700.122,"text":"這很簡單嘛當然是人類嘛對不對好 所以我們來看一下司法官的養成要相當長的時間以法官來說要這麼長的時間但是科技的成長跟引入相對的快所以就我們要解決目前的基案的案量您覺得法官 調整法官的緣額或培養來得比較迅速還是透過科技的引進比較能夠適應我們的環境上的壓力"},{"start":11703.393,"end":11726.689,"text":"很難回答來那當然要還是要從人倫來思考來好但是人要比較長的時間嘛我們現在看齁這個圖很有意思齁30年來啊我們的民事案件增長了6倍你看到什麼有沒有看到藍色的這個長條圖那我們的形式呢是紅色的長條圖那你看到的綠色的線條呢是民事的越軍結越軍辦結案他有一個到2027年呢2007、2006呢到一個高峰後啪跳水"},{"start":11733.553,"end":11733.573,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":11751.806,"end":11770.997,"text":"民事新增了314萬件 刑事新增了45萬件所以未結案就 未結案就增加96%啊是啊 你能夠辦結的就是躺平啦數量呢 增加的就在上面是惡意亂數 還是我們立法者重型化 還是案件複雜化造成的"},{"start":11773.103,"end":11793.881,"text":"法院在不管怎樣是社會信賴的很重要的力量所以法院就被賦予各種要照料的書越來越多大家期待法院能夠把案量隨著案量的提高能夠把判決的能力也提高範圍也廣了恰恰相反直接躺平"},{"start":11794.691,"end":11804.959,"text":"為什麼我們往下看我們常常說上游缺水保下游土石流人力永遠不夠用你同意嗎是不是從源頭按量的控管比較重要"},{"start":11809.28,"end":11824.578,"text":"所以我們底下提出這幾個方法比如說在刑事上我們加強行政處遇在民事上我們透過律師的諮詢強化調解在程序上加強審查減少訴訟量一審量少上訴量就算減少你覺得這有沒有幫助"},{"start":11828.645,"end":11849.437,"text":"這個應該一些有效率的方式這些應該都會有幫助所以你都支持好那我們來看一下訴訟減量行政簡化已經部分上路了你們有沒有做人力評估的影響影響的評估成效如何有沒有有沒有評估說你們現在所做的這所有的訴訟減量跟行政簡化到底有沒有讓案源源頭的案量減少你們有沒有評估過"},{"start":11850.848,"end":11867.11,"text":"因為最主要岸岩有時候我們無法控制你們有沒有控制那你怎麼知道你的有人要說對症下藥啊你今天看到岸岸一直成長你們祭出了訴訟減量祭出了行政簡化結果祭出的手法還是沒有壓下來"},{"start":11868.191,"end":11880.425,"text":"那你這個對症就沒有下藥啦所以就有另外一種要限量困難的聲音就你們有沒有自己評估過當你們下了這個藥的時候病情有沒有比較好或減少惡化你們有沒有做這個評估"},{"start":11882.046,"end":11901.057,"text":"如果你沒有做這評估你不斷地下藥下藥阿結果呢案例一直成長成長你怎麼知道哪個藥有效哪個藥沒有效那最主要在司法機關是很無奈阿案言一直來阿因為法令負擬阿秉事長我們科學方法啦你面對問題你提出解方"},{"start":11901.677,"end":11926.929,"text":"解方有沒有造成問題沒有繼續惡化也要評估嘛對不對請你們回去做評估來為了要減少訴訟讓法官能專注我們的審判核心業務我們提出了透過包括了我們的智慧科技來形成筆錄在確保治安的前提之下我們讓這個摘要的調查意見資料能夠用這個方式還有簡化判決書啊書狀的格式化那你認為這些有沒有幫助"},{"start":11927.705,"end":11927.985,"text":"法官不是機器人"},{"start":11949.858,"end":11967.848,"text":"合理的工作才有裁判品質目前齁你們是有說一個欸你們有一個怎樣司法週刊啊說怎樣你們要去衡量法官的工作量案量對不對案量結案量那請問一下結案100件跟結案10件哪一件哪一個效率高那那結案100件跟結案10件兩個法官你認為誰的效率好那"},{"start":11976.312,"end":11997.615,"text":"當然要合理的結案品質才會好是 那你們有沒有評估所以你們目前這一個量化的數字叫做結案量這對法官壓力很大阿有沒有分類不同的案件他可能不需要不同的工作量所以是不是用合理的工作分類來衡量一個合理的結案量是不是這樣子"},{"start":11998.456,"end":12002.02,"text":"我們明天就會舉行這樣一個會議所以請你們好好的落實對不同的案件他的合理的工作量做合理的評估不是以單一的結案數量是不是這樣"},{"start":12018.018,"end":12038.108,"text":"好那最後我們來看一下那這個統計你們就說從明天開始我就等於是今天問的嘛要統計才有辦法估算人力需求將幫助法官減壓那你們有辦法區分案件的複雜程度嗎有辦法吧是可以啊因為這個都會有一定的處理方式那最後我們最後要提到就是原額"},{"start":12039.148,"end":12056.877,"text":"其實我們剛剛講到了司法官尤其是法官的培養要很長的時間你們往往在一個司法院院長的任內他其實就算透過人總給你們員額你們都不見得來得及補對不對那我們來看一下這個剛剛都提出來了目前你們還有數字沒有改是13900人變成15000人那麼其實整體中央政府的員額是減7%"},{"start":12064.461,"end":12092.154,"text":"司法院的員額是從13000人變成15000人,增加了快8%你覺得人總有沒有給予我們司法院較多的員額,讓你們解決問題,有沒有?那因為我們現在需求,像今天有提出表嘛,要5000...我知道啦,我說從整體來看啦,一個人口袋,其他的小孩零用金都減了,給你的零用金是成長的,你覺得人總在員額上有沒有不給司法院?"},{"start":12093.39,"end":12093.991,"text":"我瞭解"},{"start":12110.194,"end":12135.845,"text":"平估後來的心智那果不出其然現在減縮為一萬五千人之後接下來的各項心智、憲法訴訟法那個國民法官法然後行政訴訟心智商業事件審理法等等的這一大堆心智增加法外工作負擔這個一千一百人現在證明就是杯水抽薪對不對對,加上明年要成立北部邵家法院很好,處長你不用那麼上氣不接下氣我們都知道你們需求很大"},{"start":12136.485,"end":12162.123,"text":"但是今天整體中華民國中央政府緣額是減7%的所以我要說的是說我們說話持平來論整個中央政府總緣額法他是在縮減的但是給司法院的緣額是要提高的但是提高的幅度還趕不上你的需求這是你要講的嘛 對不對好 那我們往這方面來思考但是除了時任法官之外法官有77條我們有憂鬱法官憂鬱法官有沒有記錄目前的緣額 有沒有"},{"start":12164.178,"end":12164.478,"text":"主席總署"},{"start":12190.802,"end":12212.338,"text":"人事費用所以這個部分你們具體來提把這些 所以你們會發現喔過勞的法官好像都是年輕人耶我不是說年齡歧視但是年輕照長的因為有這個憂鬱制度他比較不容易過勞可是他一樣佔緣額如果他辦的案件少我們給他憂鬱因為法官終身職嘛 憲法81條的規定嘛 是不是這樣"},{"start":12214.221,"end":12239.702,"text":"所以過老的都是年輕的法官那我們怎樣把這個元額...應該不分年齡啦因為我看過太多年老的也是...所以我們秘書長終於還是幫忙同儕講個話啦我70歲啊我知道...所以你也很過老啦而且看過那個年老的這個...所以我是說你們設法要從這個元額上的計算去跟人種去argue可不可以?"},{"start":12240.683,"end":12240.803,"text":"三管齊下"},{"start":12258.078,"end":12279.287,"text":"案源要減量科技化協助分攤分流讓法官穿上核心判決合理評估工作量和結案量然後預估未來的需求這方面都很重要所以我們最後又有兩個提出要求請司法院3個月內提出書面報告合理評量各類案件所需的不同工作量並具以調配案量並評估未來的需求可以嗎"},{"start":12281.296,"end":12301.428,"text":"請司法院衡量10年內憂鬱法官控制的緣合我可能要再加一句配合跟人事總署爭取並入未來整體的緣合需求並就法官跟書記官等為適當配置上個月你讀書沒報告我要說評為什麼這樣因為如果憂鬱法官的緣合可以控出來其實你要著雨給一些書記官因為書記官是沒有憂鬱的他們很憂鬱可是他們沒有得到憂鬱"},{"start":12304.867,"end":12305.027,"text":"王小玲委員質詢"},{"start":12332.213,"end":12335.616,"text":"我們先處理會議時間上午會議時間我們繼續進行至所有登記發言委員尋答結束為止接下來我們就請問委員謝謝好的謝謝主席有請秘書長還有次長請秘書長跟部長蔡部長請蔡部長"},{"start":12354.709,"end":12381.665,"text":"首先我想要講的就是死刑釋憲的辯論庭我昨天晚上花了一些時間把整個辯論庭的內容都看完了我必須說我非常肯定法務部的表現雖然說知道在這樣子的一個釋憲場合裡面絕大多數都是支持要廢除死刑的"},{"start":12384.076,"end":12393.54,"text":"的專家學者,可是法務部確實有捍衛目前的法律的制度,死刑的制度也提出了非常很好的一個"},{"start":12395.231,"end":12397.852,"text":"司法院秘書長"},{"start":12418.072,"end":12441.653,"text":"拜託你回去要提醒曲中立院長還有大法官們請他們要尊重自己的職務職權知道作為一個司法的釋憲機關的分際在哪裡不要越組代跑他們就是一個法的適用者而不是一個立法的制定者希望他們不要自以為他們是"},{"start":12442.814,"end":12459.86,"text":"代表的進步的思想進步的這個立法者他們可以去取代立法權主導立法權這個其實是非常不對的在德國的非常多的法學者其實他們都有提出來要警示德國聯邦憲法法院要遵守他們的分際"},{"start":12461.12,"end":12470.583,"text":"那麼大法官他的民意基礎再怎麼樣說他們有進階民意基礎這個法官還具有民意基礎可是他們的民意基礎絕對不及立法院的民意基礎所以請他們回去請您回去要轉告院長和大法官們請他們要節制他們自己的權利"},{"start":12485.256,"end":12503.119,"text":"那麼在昨天的大法官事件裡面其實有提到一點這邊要請教部長在森林大法官他質疑法務部這些年怠惰不做廢死的修法請問法務部是否失職呢大法官點名你們了"},{"start":12505.207,"end":12526.622,"text":"我不曉得他是怎麼說的啦那我們是法律的執行者那會根據民意或是大院的要求我們會提出一些立法的草案來供大院來討論所以這是我們善盡我們本身的職責所以他說你們有提立法草有提修法草案嗎有提廢除死刑的修法草案嗎"},{"start":12527.543,"end":12556.612,"text":"我們有要求外面的研究團體來幫我們做如果實行替代方案的研究有這樣的一個研究案但是沒有提出修法我們是有研究案因為總是有不同的聲音我想每個行政機關都會做研究計劃案那麼這個部分的話我必須先說我肯定部長您剛剛的回應確實法務部做一個行政機關它就是依法行政"},{"start":12557.372,"end":12571.239,"text":"目前的法律制度是怎麼樣的規定這個法務部就要去配依據法律來執行這個法律那麼我希望法務部但是呢我認為這個大法官很有趣竟然他認為說這個法務部呢"},{"start":12574.241,"end":12574.481,"text":"法務部長"},{"start":12589.131,"end":12615.877,"text":"權利在哪裡?在這裡我必須要講我也認為大法官們現在是不是他們的憲法認知錯亂他們已經完全不理解什麼叫權利分立原則但在這樣的情況之下他們又如何能夠做出正確的憲法解釋希望部長回去可以勉勵同仁要謹守依法行政還有依法要依法來適用法律依法獨立的審判"},{"start":12618.328,"end":12633.761,"text":"去進行相關的這個相關的這個行政這個行政作為好那接下來我要請教這個秘書長我們看到其實思改博士會議的結論裡面那麼有特別提到要減輕法官的"},{"start":12638.84,"end":12659.539,"text":"要增加這個司法程序的效力以及要將司法官的人事制度要更加的多元化可是我們看到其實這個司法院他在這個去年司法院院長在去年所做的報告裡面他這個重點說你們的6年的司法改革歷程裡面"},{"start":12660.64,"end":12672.307,"text":"看不出來有什麼樣的一個方案是要減輕司法院的人力配置要減輕法官的工作量"},{"start":12673.715,"end":12700.048,"text":"我必須說我認為現在的司法院看起來你們的重點就是配合院長的上意這個他喜歡憲法訴訟法那麼你修了配合憲法訴訟法力推國民法官法也力推了國民法官法可是就像剛剛所說的其他前面幾位委員有指出這個配合著憲法訴訟法、國民法官法以及種種的這個相關訴訟法的修正其實也增加了法官很多的負擔所以很明顯的是員額不足"},{"start":12704.008,"end":12732.5,"text":"那麼這個事情其實從過去到現在都非常清楚就知道法官的工作量很大我們的訴訟案件量也非常之多可是為什麼這個司法院遲遲都沒有改革的動作讓我不禁質疑司法院的司改到底是玩真的還是玩假的那麼我也看到就是在你們這次的業務報告裡面也有提到你未來要引進新的這個科技"},{"start":12733.615,"end":12734.375,"text":"一直都有,那為什麼一直都沒有做?"},{"start":12762.449,"end":12763.931,"text":"你們有沒有做得太慢了?"},{"start":12769.912,"end":12793.545,"text":"因為我真的發現司法院的效率是比其他的這個機關的效率要差得多而且可能你們的科技素養你們資訊素養程度也不夠所以都不知道說現在有很多很好的這個方便的這個3C的設備啊工具啊或是一些科技的工具是可以運用的可以大幅度的減輕法官、書記官以及其他的司法人員的這個勞力啊"},{"start":12796.766,"end":12797.607,"text":"我真的非常期待司法院應該要"},{"start":12819.864,"end":12841.585,"text":"加緊的趕快追上現在科技的腳步在我們現在政府早就在講要數位化、科技化可是確實我們發現這個機關司法系統裡面的數位化的程度是遠不及其他的行政機關那這個部分的話是希望"},{"start":12844.677,"end":12868.795,"text":"秘書長這邊要多注意還有另外一個部分我想要講的就是剛剛其實人事總署在他們今天的報告裡面已經有講到其實在108年司法院跟還有法務部等等都有增加了一千人的員額可是事實上到現在都還有缺額請問為什麼沒有補時呢這一部分我們處長他剛剛"},{"start":12871.937,"end":12878.981,"text":"方委員因為現在所剩的餘額是492人因為我們今年是14508距離總餘額上限還有492人那預計明年的114年要增列392人這是為了要因應北部少家法院的成立還有少年調查保護官的合理人力增加所以到115年的時候我們預算餘額只會剩下只有100人"},{"start":12899.892,"end":12922.217,"text":"我要講就是說你們去看看日本日本的司法人力他們的司法員額如果就人口數比的話其實他們服務的案件量可能還比我們的法官還要更多但是他們也沒有增加那麼多的員額這個問題可能就出在是司法院裡面的很多的人力的運用沒有效率"},{"start":12923.737,"end":12931.164,"text":"還有就是說隨著就是近年來的訴訟案件大幅的增加我們這個辦公室這邊也有做出一些分析當發現這個訴訟案件可能都集中在幾大五大類型吧包含像什麼離婚如果民事的話像是離婚、賠償等等這些你們有沒有試圖的想要透過修法"},{"start":12945.678,"end":12973.991,"text":"去解決那些訴訟案件量那麼當然在刑事訴訟方面我們也發現一個問題就是現在法官輕判法官輕判的問題以至於就是很多人可能他們根本也不在乎反正被抓到了被判刑又怎麼樣很快就是一顆罰金所以我覺得這也是跟你們自己這個法院內部的審理案件相關的一些這個其實它是密切相關的不見得跟要增加"},{"start":12974.731,"end":13002.553,"text":"人力增加原額有關我必須說時代在進步我們的政府組織精簡這是向來我們要遵循的目標那從剛剛的這個報告裡面也可以知道在全部的行政機關人力大幅這個縮減情況之下唯有司法院的人力是每年在增加但是如果說以現在法官的這樣子的一個辦案的這個"},{"start":13004.121,"end":13004.882,"text":"還有另外就是我們也發現不僅是法官工作量大、壓力大"},{"start":13024.236,"end":13036.596,"text":"其實像書記官等等的壓力也很大我也聽了一些書記官的學生輩的朋友們有在講現在書記官也是高階低用啊明明他們是高考進來"},{"start":13038.806,"end":13038.966,"text":"司法院秘書長"},{"start":13055.865,"end":13081.011,"text":"沒那麼複雜的行政事務工作可以委由外派的人力來做可以將整個的業務的經費的運用做合理的調整那我認為可能是比較適當的還請司法院回去研議好 謝謝好 謝謝翁委員、謝謝秘書長、謝謝部長好 接下來請邱智維委員發言邱委員、邱智維委員、邱智維委員不在有請賴委員事保發言"},{"start":13088.831,"end":13099.097,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請法務部的蔡部長以及司法院的吳秘書長請蔡部長跟吳秘書長部長兩位長官好昨天的Face的辯論很清楚地看得到了"},{"start":13116.95,"end":13142.103,"text":"這大法官幾乎一面倒就是要廢死啊那個秘書長這裡啊你聽就好啦我不要你怎麼回答因為你沒講話餘地就是大法官要冒著乾冒著一個違反八成以上民意的大部會極可能做成違憲"},{"start":13144.485,"end":13170.206,"text":"那我就請教部長如果他做成為說好三個月以後做成一個說死刑是違憲下一步怎麼樣如果很明確的做這樣的釋憲結果我們都會遵照這個結果來做必要的修法的提案所以會怎麼樣所以如果有就把死刑拿掉了"},{"start":13171.523,"end":13194.3,"text":"這要看他釋憲的結果如何啦我想我們沒有那麼悲觀啦這個那個秘書長要補充一下如果做成這樣子你們通常會怎麼樣要求法務部那我們這個負責司法行政啦不管這個好那我講請你上去你要聽啦我們兩個人對話你聽一下"},{"start":13199.113,"end":13228.209,"text":"國澳區不是有三次的釋憲嗎?三次釋憲都說死刑是核心,對不對?部長對對嘛,阿奇怪呢?阿為什麼可以一要再、再要三、三要四,一直來釋憲呢?為什麼可以?阿如果他這樣做出來,能不能我受害者我的家屬,受害者家屬,被殺掉的,無辜殺掉的那些家屬可以不可以,我也提出一個釋憲,可以嗎?我請加盟你"},{"start":13230.363,"end":13257.568,"text":"申請權當然就依照憲法訴訟法誰有權他就可以提出申請但你受不受理當然是憲法法院來做決定這個我現在就明白主張了在這個國會殿堂我就明白主張了如果大法官兩三個月之後大法官會議這一次憲法法庭之後做成說"},{"start":13259.44,"end":13261.582,"text":"實行是違憲的話絕對引起一大波的一個民怨我們來發動公投啊公投我請教部長你是這份專家公投的效力大還是司法官還是大法官解釋的效力大你要告訴我哪個大誰大"},{"start":13285.762,"end":13288.263,"text":"結果出來就大法官說是違憲然後人民發動公投把他推翻掉"},{"start":13309.268,"end":13327.766,"text":"那我們就看他不同的規定嘛公投有公投法那事先有憲法訴訟法那看各相關的居然大法官會講說民意不重要阿台灣現在是什麼國際上跟人家講就是我們的民主我們的自由"},{"start":13330.184,"end":13356.642,"text":"民主叫什麼?民主就是以人民為主叫人民主啊人民最大結果每一次命令就是八成每一次命令八成老實講 蔡部長你們這個時候一分天命啊講這個這麼大聲的話說你們反對廢食啊結果你們死出庸職而已你們如果不要有那個行政命令哪裡有什麼債神非常上訴跟憲法法庭"},{"start":13357.932,"end":13377.049,"text":"那不是行政命令行事訴訟法就有規定在審非常上述他有這樣的權利啊憲法法庭實行的不只是你們的行政命令你剛剛講是行事訴訟是另外一件事行政命令是根據法律來訂定的嘛法律行事訴訟法就有規定他有在審的權利他有非常上述的權利嘛"},{"start":13378.14,"end":13394.515,"text":"沒有規定死刑犯有這個權利啦沒有規定死刑犯有這個權利是你們自己家的法律有規定我們只是跟照法律來訂定沒有 上一次我在這裡問你的問題是你跟我回答今天不一樣喔但是 事先這個部分就是說 規定啦"},{"start":13395.416,"end":13414.418,"text":"行政法院沒有規定這個喔沒有規定這個死刑犯不執行是你們有一個死刑犯的執行條件你們說一定要經過再審非常上述憲法法庭是你們的行政命令把它加上去的所以你們現在就感覺好像我的感覺是你們跟道法官在唱雙簧捏"},{"start":13415.93,"end":13416.21,"text":"很清楚的"},{"start":13440.524,"end":13451.327,"text":"外界的解讀是什麼?這幾個大法官要感念啊,可能都快學習,要感念蔡英文提名當大法官,所以在他們退議前要獻給蔡英文一個卸任的禮物啊。"},{"start":13457.541,"end":13471.334,"text":"蔡英文、念茲再次包括你們司法院長、許中立這兩位都是主張廢死一路在推動廢死然後法務部長也不敢去講話因為他是老闆所以只能這樣子所以今天來講看到說法務部這樣盡力去fight其實這都假的老闆最重要"},{"start":13480.751,"end":13489.637,"text":"沒有 我們是鑑定我們的立場嘛跟我們的職責嘛沒有啦 那個 那個 部長啊你 你 你確定不會留任嗎不會啊啊 所以要走之前 要講真話啊那所以我講的都是真話啊講真話就是說 你這樣不幾步不幾步這就是 這樣假的啊 就玩一趟過程給大家看 最後我請問你 我就一句話 問完我就下來了齁"},{"start":13509.699,"end":13532.271,"text":"如果大法官解釋說違憲,你能不能接受?個人能不能接受?我們就看他解釋文如何,然後也會參考不同意見書。不是你要聽沒有啦,你就說能接受不能接受兩句而已,要選你啊,能不能接受?結果我大帽子就是合乎憲法。"},{"start":13538.427,"end":13543.592,"text":"大帽子不合乎憲法就是違憲不違憲法務部的立場就是認為合憲"},{"start":13546.429,"end":13546.569,"text":"主席"},{"start":13573.325,"end":13595.427,"text":"那接下來有請鄭天才委員、鄭天才、鄭天才委員不在有請鄭振淺委員、鄭振淺、鄭振淺委員不在所有發言登記、登記發言委員均已發言完畢、詢答結束委員諮詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關競速送交個別委員及本會"},{"start":13597.22,"end":13608.651,"text":"委員復婚期所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆本次會議到此結束現在散會謝謝大家"},{"start":13624.139,"end":13625.14,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13660.066,"end":13669.012,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"15844","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15844","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d1c34ab709cdaffb099e01fa654b137933be8d109af184be42808b6a663f6c12a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案」案。二、審查本院委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查行政院函請審議「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-24","start_time":"2024-04-24T08:30:29+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:04:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":12811,"委員發言時間":"08:30:29 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較有疑義的就是說之前我們為什麼把那個就因為洪仲秋案"},{"start":2276.601,"end":2279.122,"text":"那時候我們的第10條,如果大家有印象的話,那個那時候的第10條其實就是希望國防部不要有黑箱作業,那國防部當然也不希望讓外界有這樣的印象,所以其實把長官都應該要以書面下達,這是當時民進黨的總召柯建民領銜連署的。"},{"start":2300.146,"end":2301.887,"text":"草案案件事件處理法草案案件事件處理法草案案件事件處理法草案案件事件處理法草案"},{"start":2326.241,"end":2335.624,"text":"拿掉以後,他可能對於暴行犯上抗命、聚眾鬥毆這些事件不斷的增加,而且幹部要維持紀律其實真的是沒有有效的工具,可是"},{"start":2340.871,"end":2344.313,"text":"我們在今年一五一已經延長了那未來會衍生更多的問題所以我先舉個例子來說就裡面包括懲罰法裡面的這個因人涉事或者空白授權的條文太多了而且加大懲罰的力度懲罰的種類從罰站到撤職馬委員我們實質審查還沒有到我說你上面有什麼建議好不好"},{"start":2366.246,"end":2393.251,"text":"就是甚至到罰款剝奪或減少退出給予這樣的部分一個懲罰法而已他只是可能觸犯軍紀等一下我把它講完嘛因為你到可以撤職或者把人家退出給予他都可以拿掉一個主官包括可能一個旅長或者甚至一個軍團的指揮官他可能就有這樣的權限這是不合理的所以如果我們要動到這麼大的一個條文的"},{"start":2395.871,"end":2405.797,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。"},{"start":2424.728,"end":2443.903,"text":"希望召開公聽會,謝謝。好,謝謝馬委員的程序發言。我們今天審的兩套法,一個是《陸海空軍懲罰法》是讓所有的懲戒行為有法律依據,但法的好或不好才是我們審查的目的。所以我們在審查的時候可以逐條來處理。第二個,裡面在《軍人權益事件處理法》也把它法制化。"},{"start":2445.064,"end":2471.905,"text":"讓軍人如果有有冤屈或者這個處罰不合理有一個處理流程。同樣道理這個法律司設計出來的版本若不好也就要借重各位委員的智慧來處理了我先補充介紹我剛有看到吳宗憲委員還有黃國昌委員也到席這樣好不好那個馬文君委員提出程序發言建議召開公聽會我跟我們聯審的同仁參詳一下因為我們今天是兩天一次會那委員都已經來開會了"},{"start":2473.246,"end":2483.695,"text":"我贊成召開公聽會,我也會來召開公聽會,但是我們那個詢答先繼續,詢答結束,召開完公聽會,我們再來進行逐條實質的審查。將來一面呢,我們在"},{"start":2489.6,"end":2517.038,"text":"在待會兒詢答的時候各位可能有相關的事務要詢問或者有相關的條文也可以問那公聽會的時候才知道公聽什麼問什麼公聽會還要列出專家代表所以公聽會還有一個籌辦時間所以本席這邊才是看各黨團有沒有意見兩個委員會同仁有沒有意見第一個我們在進入這個審查的時候呢之前要召開公聽會那第二個"},{"start":2517.698,"end":2539.036,"text":"在今天的議程尋答照常進行,那尋答結束之後,代工定會召開完畢,我們再進行相關的大體跟主要審查。」我不知道各位有沒有意見?因為你現在尋答以後,其實我們又不瞭,其實你召開工定會的意義會不大,我們先不會召開工定會,我們還是可以"},{"start":2542.967,"end":2553.472,"text":"我們還是,我們首先要說明,為了維持軍紀,我們都支持,可是因為它動得實在太大,它從37條變成73條,它多了36條,那這裡面是不是應該,而且那時候鬧得那麼大,我贊成開公聽會,我的意思是說,今天來,如果我們這樣就散會囉,"},{"start":2564.741,"end":2566.602,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。三、審查本院委員"},{"start":2588.331,"end":2608.482,"text":"第二、我們在進行尋答各位垂詢的問題,不管是就這兩個法案,或者有相關其他問題可以提出來尋答。第二、我們在這個公聽會開完之後進入逐條審查還有大體討論,其實都還可以再問。所以,沒有,大體完逐條。好,來,林楚欣委員。"},{"start":2610.783,"end":2636.119,"text":"主席各位立法院的同仁大家早安我認為確實這一部法律修得非常多也非常的廣那麼也攸關到接下來如何讓軍中在做管理的時候更有制度化沒錯其實洪仲崇案之後大家非常關心的是軍中人權的部分那所以說我認為今天大家都聚集在這裡尤其是司法法制都在聯席今天有這麼多的"},{"start":2637.04,"end":2638.122,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":2649.281,"end":2675.092,"text":"就不詢答,我認為這對於整個立法院的遇事運作上面其實是一種人力上的浪費,所以我同意支持就是主席,我們先進行詢答,因為剛剛其實馬文君委員的發言的過程當中也確實點出了一些問題,我相信在場的委員看了這個法規也有一些問題,那麼我們先點出來今天在場有這麼多的媒體在這裡,我們藉由今天不論是"},{"start":2676.352,"end":2688.781,"text":"國防委員會的直播又或者現場媒體,我們把問題點出來,也可以為後續的公聽會做一個暖身,所以我同意今天先詢答,然後開公聽會。好,謝謝林楚瑩委員,沈博洋委員。"},{"start":2690.681,"end":2708.537,"text":"我快速講一下,因為這個大家都知道剛剛前面有提到這跟洪仲修案也是有點關係那我應該蠻有資格講話的,我是洪仲修案的律師所以呢,這邊呢我先提醒一下就是說第一個就是這個條文真的修得非常多所以呢如果說直接開公聽會的話會有一個很大的問題就是說會沒有辦法聚焦啦"},{"start":2708.977,"end":2731.02,"text":"所以如果說今天先詢答的話,我們可以先把認為每一個委員認為有問題的法條先聚焦以後,然後再進行公聽會,然後再一次的大體發言,那這樣就會更聚焦,那我才會知道到底問題出在哪裡,那不然的話條文那麼多,一次開公聽會可能會沒有辦法解決問題。好,謝謝,謝謝沈波洋委員。我跟我們同仁再討論一下,第一個,我們都贊成開公聽會。"},{"start":2732.441,"end":2759.279,"text":"那我們今天已經兩個委員會聯席審查了那在進行詢答的時候確實可以達到聚焦因為這裡面懲罰法就是紀律這個權益事件的保護就是人權這兩個法剛好是兩個翅膀那因為條文很多條透過今天詢答大家關注的點也讓國防部召公聽會要focus要聚焦在那裡第一個好處第二個我們未來這個法這麼多條要審查我也建議我們兩個委員會"},{"start":2760.72,"end":2775.412,"text":"一開始先把都沒意見的條文先過然後聚焦在有爭議的條文來審查這樣才能把精力用在比較有用的事情上面所以是不是我再詢問一次啦我們今天就進行詢答完了公聽會公聽會完"},{"start":2777.654,"end":2798.73,"text":"在進行大體討論、逐條討論。」我想這裡面不管是就意見的收集做審查程序的完備都不會有所影響這樣可能會比較完整也避免今天我們這樣聚集完若今天不詢答那我們就就散會了我認為這並不妥適啦不知道各位委員有沒有意見沒有的話我們就準備開始進行詢答啦"},{"start":2799.96,"end":2809.206,"text":"好,謝謝各位。我們現在請國防部長、邱國正部長就本次審查兩部法律的行政院函請審議版本進行報告。邱國正部長請。"},{"start":2822.816,"end":2848.419,"text":"主席、各位委員、各部會與會的先進,大家好。我想今天大願外交及國防、還有司法及法制委員會來聯席審查我們陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案以及軍人權益事件處理法的一個草案。對各位委員長期關懷國防事務特別表達感激之意。現行的這個陸海空軍的懲罰法"},{"start":2849.88,"end":2867.194,"text":"民國19年制定的在104年進行第5次的修正。當然我們審查當前我們國軍兵力結構還有法治思維這些實況跟陸海空軍懲罰法、立法跟第一次修正的時間不同。"},{"start":2868.456,"end":2880.895,"text":"為了事先保障我們軍中的人權,而且維護部隊的紀律,我們部旅也邀請了很多學者專家來通盤做檢討,並且提出修正草案,來進行我們國軍懲罰的一個制度。"},{"start":2883.519,"end":2898.939,"text":"另外,我們現行的軍人權益救濟範圍都分散在各個訴願法或相關的行政法令裏面,沒有統一適用的法律,所以光不遠矣就擬具了軍人權益事件處理法"},{"start":2899.48,"end":2918.192,"text":"是軍人未來在面臨到權益的爭議的時候可以明確而且便捷地進入救濟的一個途徑。有關於法案的說明,我建議由法律司司長、沈司長向大家做詳細報告,敬請大院各位委員能夠給予支持跟指導。"},{"start":2923.206,"end":2949.718,"text":"主席、各位委員、先進。以下就陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案還有軍人權益事件處理法的草案說明如下。第一,陸海空軍懲罰法現行的懲罰法大致承襲民國19年當時的一個立法體力因為不服現行法制的思維本部從109年起就成立了修法小組參考外國立法、學說還有司法實務的見解並且跟司法院、法務部等機關召開了將近50次的會議"},{"start":2952.219,"end":2975.794,"text":"另外赴國軍各單位跟不同職務階級的官、士兵辦理了15場次的一個座談,再由行政院召開了25次的逐條審查會議,最終才完成了這個草案。第一個有關陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案的一個摘要,這次懲罰法修正草案是全案修正,草案共計有6章79條,草案的修正重點,括弧一,"},{"start":2976.674,"end":2997.133,"text":"調整軍人懲罰的事由,軍人應受懲罰的行為,我們區分為勤務上與勤務外的兩類,前者因為軍人違反服勤的義務,可以懲罰,後者是因為影響軍域或是部隊運作為原則,如果不是我們具體列舉的勤務外的違紀行為,那就不可以做撤職或是記納過這種重大的懲罰。"},{"start":2999.355,"end":3020.79,"text":"花火兒,悔過懲罰向來有限制人身自由的憲法爭議。我們考量悔過本來就是透過教育的手段,使危機行為人改過向善。所以我們將悔過的地點修正為適當的處所,而且不可以有禁錮等不人道的一個待遇。另外,明定執行的期間不計入服役的役期跟年資。"},{"start":3023.052,"end":3041.307,"text":"三、參考公務員懲戒法我們增訂了可以處心台幣5000元到100萬元的一個罰款,還有剝奪或減少退出給予的一個財產性的懲罰,使部隊長能針對不同身份、即職還有行為態樣,是以更多元而且適切的一個懲罰。四、"},{"start":3043.729,"end":3071.56,"text":"增進軍人依附司法懲戒的要件還有相關的配套還有暫時停止勤務、數個違紀行為、合一評價還有執行等等的規範以符合未來部隊的一個時序。五、增進調查的專章將權力告知、緘默權、律師依賴權、禁止夜間詢問及證據排除法則等等的重要調查原則我們把它入法。另外規範刑事偵查競合的處理等事項"},{"start":3072.66,"end":3100.984,"text":"以使得將來的調查能符合正當法律程序及法律保留的原則。五、為了妥善處理軍事處所內造成重大死傷案件,我們增訂那邊專家學者及社會公正人士參與的專案調查及評議機制,並且允許事件的當事人或特定家屬可以請求調查及參與程序以回應社會的期待。"},{"start":3102.233,"end":3126.686,"text":"二、大院徐巧芯及廖偉祥等18位委員擬具的懲罰法修正草案,我們摘要說明如下。1、增訂行政調查的證據留存規範。委員等提案增訂懲罰法第8條第4項,明定相關事證經單位主觀同意後,得作副本審查,以避免行政調查因偵查不公開而受不利的影響。"},{"start":3127.887,"end":3146.856,"text":"本部的意見是,行政調查本來就不會因為刑事偵查而停止。相關的事證,如果經過檢察官扣案後,不論是正本或是副本,都是屬於偵查不公開的範圍。我們建議這個事不要增訂,以符合《刑事疏通法》相關的規定。五、刮鬍兒刪除降階的懲罰。"},{"start":3148.237,"end":3166.329,"text":"委員等建議因目前國軍實務上沒有降階的一個實例,提案刪除現行條文12條2款,還有第18條有關降階的懲罰。本部的延期建議是,現行的降階懲罰因為必須要停止任用,依照陸海空軍軍官司官服役條例14條1項6款,"},{"start":3168.75,"end":3192.455,"text":"應該要停役,會造成受降階懲罰者就必須離營,效果跟撤職相類同。」為了使實務能夠妥善運用降階的這個懲罰,這一次的行政院版本的修正草案的第22條將停止任用,修正為降階者一年內不得調任主管的職務,我們建議還是維持降階的這個懲罰的種類。"},{"start":3194.955,"end":3214.796,"text":"刮布山增訂軍官罰請委員等提案現行條文第12條6款增訂違紀的軍官可以罰請的這個懲罰的種類。本部的意見因為軍官負責部隊的指揮跟領導,他的任官任職的條件都比士官跟士兵都相對來的嚴格。"},{"start":3216.477,"end":3233.295,"text":"對他的軍官的身份我們是覺得應該要有一定程度的一個尊重而且軍官執行罰勤以後對於後續的領導統一我們覺得可能會生不利的一個影響所以我們建議軍官罰勤這個部分我們建議不予增訂。五、增訂主觀的連帶責任"},{"start":3235.757,"end":3258.582,"text":"委員等提案在現行條文第15條增訂第15款《待於監督管理所屬人員以致發生軍機案件的連帶懲罰條款》。本部延期的建議是,行政院版本第5條第3款已經將《待於監督所屬人員執行勤務或是服役機關管理規範》把它明定為勤務上的違紀行為。長官,"},{"start":3260.342,"end":3279.798,"text":"不需要因為所屬官兵非執行及勤務的行為而受懲罰,所以我們建議是參採行政院的版本。五、撤職停止任用,修正為不得調任主管職務。委員等提案參考公務員懲戒法現行條文第17條"},{"start":3283.021,"end":3311.62,"text":"撤職後面接著停止任用,修正為不得調任主管的職務。」本部的嚴希建議是,軍人的人事規範跟文職公務員不同,軍士官撤職並且停止任用後,依照《陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例》第14條一項六款的規定,就要停役,他會喪失現役軍人的身份,他是軍人最嚴厲的一個懲罰,建議我們維持現行撤職後面搭著停止任用的一個制度。"},{"start":3313.421,"end":3339.759,"text":"修正降級的期間,委員等提案將現行條文第19條降級的期間從三個月以上一年以下修正為一個月以上一年以下,以利部隊彈性的運用。本部的意見是降級是針對為私情節非屬輕微人員來實施,如果下修執行的期限,我們怕會弱化這個懲罰的一個效益,我們建議還是維持現行降級的這個期間。"},{"start":3343.081,"end":3357.719,"text":"第七、累計三大過徹職,增訂了一個公過相抵。委員等提案現行條文第20條第二項,增訂在一年內累計大過三次的,經過公過相抵計算後,才可以徹職。"},{"start":3358.86,"end":3372.617,"text":"本部的言息一件事,一年內累積滿三大過的人,他的工作態度跟表現已經明顯不適應限制,基於國軍流優太烈的一個立場,我們建議不予增訂,以確保部隊的一個純淨。」"},{"start":3373.979,"end":3378.265,"text":"刮鬍疤、刪除罰薪的懲罰。」委員等認為現行條文第21條的罰薪因為違反《勞動基準法》第26條僱主不得預扣工資作為違約或賠償金的精神,所以委員等建議刪除。"},{"start":3389.099,"end":3404.45,"text":"本部的意見是軍人為國家的公務員是跟國家間的法律關係,不適合全然比照司法的勞動關係,而且公務員懲戒亦有檢縫的這種處分,我們建議維持現行罰薪的懲罰種類。七、刪除悔過檢、訴禁足及罰站。"},{"start":3412.276,"end":3431.912,"text":"委員等提案刪除、拘束、人身自由且無教育意義的悔過相關的條文請各位委員參閱。他建議刪除、悔過、減訴、禁足、罰站等等的這些紀律懲罰,一律改以罰情或是罰款這些懲罰的種類來取代。本部的建議是,懲罰種類的選擇要看受懲罰人的身份、階級"},{"start":3437.196,"end":3462.056,"text":"教育程度、經濟狀態等等來綜合判斷,如果權責長官依照個案情節綜合判斷後來選擇最適切的一個懲罰種類,那這些上開的機率懲罰是針對義務役或是情節比較輕微的違紀行為所做的一個懲罰,所以我們建議還是予以維持。第二大類是軍人權益事件處理法。司法院108年11月29日作成施治785解釋,放寬公務員"},{"start":3465.458,"end":3493.377,"text":"提起司法救濟的一個範疇軍人是廣義的公務員為現行軍人權益的救濟是按爭議的類型依照訴願法或是機關自行訂定的行政規則來辦理欠缺整合的一個法律規範部分爭議的類型也不許提起司法救濟為了填補現行法制上的一個不足整合現行多元分歧的這個救濟管道本部我們擬具了一個軍人權益事件的處理法"},{"start":3494.639,"end":3515.946,"text":"以下簡稱軍權法。軍權法草案的摘要總共有6章78條,重點包括,一、軍人與其所屬機關構部隊學校行政法人間關於身份、公法上財產請求、獎懲、考積及其他行政處分或管理措施的爭議,一本法的附審、申訴、再申訴與行政訴訟的程序來就緝。二、"},{"start":3517.686,"end":3545.463,"text":"軍人不符所屬機關對於其所為涉及軍人身份變更、空馬戰場產生請求將成或考及事項的行政處分,除了法律別有規定外,得向地方軍事法院設置的官兵權益保障會來提起複審。三、軍人不符所屬機關所為得提起複審以外的行政處分或管理措施,可以向申訴管轄機關提起申訴,如果不符,可以向權保會提起再申訴。四、"},{"start":3547.304,"end":3557.436,"text":"不服複審或再申訴的決定,可以向高等軍事法院勤務法庭提起行政訴訟。如果仍然有不服的話,得再向高等行政法院提起上訴。"},{"start":3559.448,"end":3588.277,"text":"二、大院徐巧芯等20位委員針對軍權法草案的一個修正的意見。委員等提出草案與行政院版本的內容大致都相同,只有在第8條第3項增訂志願亦退伍的軍人不可以擔任兼任的全保委員,提出了這個條款。為兼任全保委員,我們認為要具備公正客觀的遴選要件外,亦應對軍事專業或文化有一定程度的了解,事不宜疑慮"},{"start":3589.117,"end":3613.343,"text":"禁止志願役退伍人員擔任兼任的權保委員。」最後結語,本次懲罰法修正草案與軍權法草案均系為堅實部隊紀律與國防戰力,同時適切回應近期社會關切的軍中人權等國防議題,屬國軍法制上的一個重要的里程碑。其前儘早完備立法的程序,懇請各位委員先進給予支持,不吝賜教。謝謝。"},{"start":3617.34,"end":3633.231,"text":"謝謝沈司長。我們今天還有相關列席的單位,司法院有沒有補充報告?都有書面提供給委員,有沒有口頭要報告的?沒有。法務部呢?國安局教育部海委會有沒有要補充報告的?"},{"start":3634.261,"end":3638.044,"text":"審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":3649.774,"end":3668.91,"text":"結束後才進行條文的審查。」這是我們剛才經由馬委員的程序發言,我們達到了共識。那也因為這樣子,所以我們一開始宣告的10點半提修正動議,今天就不用提出。因為今天既然沒有經過公聽,也沒有條文審查,這個修正動議今天就不用提出。"},{"start":3670.431,"end":3691.843,"text":"這接下來是因為今天連審的人數眾多加上未來還有公聽又有大體竹條等等所以我們今天發言時間會略為縮短今天本委會委員時間4加2非聯席會的委員時間4分鐘10點半發言登記截止如果有臨時提案請在10點半"},{"start":3692.944,"end":3712.609,"text":"前提出,到11點左右我們會視詢答情形進行處理。首先我們請黃國昌委員進行詢答。二號謝格主席,麻煩有請部長。來,邱部長請。"},{"start":3722.219,"end":3748.555,"text":"官員好部長好支持國防守護台灣我相信是全體國人的共識在支持國防預算的同時我們絕對沒有辦法容忍貪腐跟收受回扣的事情這個基本原則我相信部長同意同意我從2019年開始追蹤一個弊案那個時候在追蹤這個弊案的時候為了怕打草驚蛇所以我什麼話都沒有講我什麼話都沒有講"},{"start":3751.406,"end":3764.215,"text":"這什麼弊案呢?我們的國防部空子部在福興營區搞了一個30億的改建工程。國人都支持,林全還去辦動工。結果我們的高階將領負責這個營區改建的少將張大偉竟然收受賄賂2800萬。"},{"start":3776.295,"end":3803.417,"text":"這個案子我一路追蹤到2020年我離開立法院我持續追蹤新北地檢署第一次給他特殊的待遇做不起訴處分的時候我非常的震驚啊因為我掌握到的事件是罪證確鑿竟然還給他不起訴處分還好有年輕有勇氣的檢察官持續追蹤下去後來把他起訴了把他起訴了"},{"start":3804.798,"end":3824.336,"text":"所呈現出來的犯罪結構這個不肖的軍人這個不肖的少將就是從國家吸血我為什麼說從國家吸血他透過減少評訴減少施工的單位也就是少做事但錢一樣給"},{"start":3825.629,"end":3851.062,"text":"然後讓承包商可以從裡面去套不法的贓款出來大意講好的是4500萬一個工程張大文一個人4500萬拿了2800萬了以後他被羈押檢察官問他說錢到哪裡去他說丟丟到火爐全部把它燒了沒有人相信這樣的說辭"},{"start":3854.102,"end":3870.6,"text":"司法的歸司法我在意的是國防部面對這件事情的態度國防部後來在2021年8月的時候完成了行政調查報告我那個時候回到民間社會我只有一個問題非常困惑這個行政調查報告為何不公開請部長"},{"start":3873.63,"end":3901.394,"text":"我跟委員報告這案子我到任以後我發覺講說這個裡面知識體大後來有很尊重他們的調查方法但我第一個做法講說他依法就辦受刑事處罰這個沒有問題這個我跟部長有共識現在我關心的是我們國軍在處理這件事情的時候我們內部的行政程序是怎麼處理的我第一個問題是這樣的行政調查報告為什麼不願意公佈"},{"start":3903.474,"end":3929.486,"text":"請法律師跟您做說明好不好是委員好我法律師司長我跟委員簡單報告這個案子我們確實有做了一個行政調查那行政調查的相關的資料我們有跟當時關切的委員我們都有主意去說沒有啊但問題是這個行政調查報告為什麼不會讓社會知道沒有什麼國防機密在裡面啊完全沒有國防機密在裡面啊還是我有什麼誤會裡面有國防機密被編密件所以不能公開"},{"start":3930.086,"end":3953.857,"text":"我跟委員報告我們跟當時所有關切的委員我們都有足以去說明這兩回事嘛是社會大眾有沒有知的權利報告委員我們這一次在陸海空軍懲罰法裡面的專案調查也有特別寫類似將來像這種東西我們有個法源依據我們就會把它做出你先不要跟我講以後的事情現在我在跟你討論的是現在的法規範到底有什麼理由不公開這是我的問題"},{"start":3955.316,"end":3978.035,"text":"你到現在還是沒有針對問題回答?所以現在就是沒有公開嗎?只有關切的委員有資格看到公民社會沒有資格看到你的立場是這樣嗎?來我繼續往下問你們這個國防部法紀調查結案報告整本報告我全部敗讀啦"},{"start":3980.087,"end":3999.743,"text":"這個報告是以什麼當作基礎?是以當初第一次放水的新北地檢署檢察官的不起訴處分為基礎耶後來起訴啦現在一審甚至判刑啦你們這個行政調查報告的基礎已經完全改變了有重新做行政調查報告嗎?請教部長"},{"start":4003.133,"end":4009.316,"text":"公開讓社會知道,否則的話最起碼社法法制委員會、外交國防委員會所有的委員通通發因為這個報告需要接受社會檢證你連有重新做調查報告這件事情整個社會都不知道"},{"start":4028.988,"end":4030.269,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":4048.246,"end":4065.794,"text":"我覺得最離譜的事情是什麼有一個關鍵的核心會議就是那個貪贓枉法的張大偉他在2017年4月24號的時候主動召集了會議召集會議做什麼事情減少施作的評訴減少施作的項目"},{"start":4066.974,"end":4089.646,"text":"但我看你的調查報告我看了半天啊為什麼這麼重要的會議可以沒有會議紀錄也沒有簽辦公文是有會議紀錄還沒有浮上水面還是根本沒有會議紀錄請回答報委員詳細的狀況因為有一段時間我要回去看那個報告但我記得確實當時有會議有的會議沒有會議紀錄確實有這種情況這樣子的會議這麼重要的會議沒有會議紀錄正常嗎請部長報委員當然不正常當然不正常"},{"start":4095.589,"end":4102.932,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":4124.781,"end":4129.446,"text":"出了這麼大的事情,調查報告不公開,檢討報告有做嗎?"},{"start":4131.664,"end":4154.995,"text":"檢討報告有做嗎?當初有做,後來因為我們很多現已法定規章講在檢檢當中,主席現在站起來了,我要尊重主席,還有其他後面登記發言的委員,但這個案子我會繼續追下去。請部長拜託,所有相關你們更新的調查報告,包括檢討報告,包括後面處分的哪些人,一個禮拜之內書面回覆可以嗎?"},{"start":4158.146,"end":4169.952,"text":"這個都做好的東西了嘛!一個禮拜之內順便回覆,可以嗎?我們一般抓兩週啦,好不好?好啦好啦,那個主席兩個禮拜交出來,可以嗎?可以,可以。好,謝謝。謝謝黃國昌委員。來,部長請回,謝謝。好,我們接下來進行詢答委員,林柱英委員。"},{"start":4192.571,"end":4194.191,"text":"懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":4217.914,"end":4239.821,"text":"這個懲罰法還有就是軍人權益事件的處理法那麼在這樣的一個過程當中我們其實知道的那就是國防部的未來通過之後的執法量能到底足不足夠我想最近的這些新聞事件都可以看到是司法人員呢因為人力的部分其實一般的司法人員都出現了過勞的這樣的一個事件"},{"start":4240.541,"end":4255.158,"text":"那麼當我們的法規通過之後,修法過後,那麼我們現有的軍法官,還有我們現在新增的所謂國防法務官,那麼到底他們的配置在哪些單位是不是足夠,我覺得才是重要的。"},{"start":4255.418,"end":4274.979,"text":"因為法一旦通過修過之後雖然當然今天大家對於這些爭點還需要凝聚焦點也必須還要再開公聽會才會逐條審查但是我相信這個法規在過去的幾年當中至少兩到三年之中其實國防部都始終在做準備的"},{"start":4275.64,"end":4295.639,"text":"那在這準備當中除了修法之外就是我們的執法的執行的量能到底夠不夠我們看到這個陸海空軍懲罰法當中是明定現在就是軍法官或者是國防法務官的依法來對刑事訴訟法等相關來做一個案件違紀案件的處理至於軍人"},{"start":4296.74,"end":4323.093,"text":"權益處理法草案案 案 則是由國防法務官兩人及外部委員三人處理。言下之意,這個所謂的國防法務官,他肩負了很重要的責任。我想請問部長或是我們現場的司長,目前如果修法通過之後,所謂的國防法務官有多少人?軍法官又有多少人?法律司長跟你報告好不好?"},{"start":4324.173,"end":4350.841,"text":"謝謝委員,我跟委員報告我們準備這個法的時間也蠻久那這兩個法的最後面都有定有施行日期就是我們會報行政院合定了之後再來施行那現在的國防法務官也就是我們從去年開始考試院也很支持我們已經開始辦理國防法務官的考試目前第一批的國防法務官的人員結訓在今年就會結訓那第二批國防法務官錄取的人員第一批在今年結訓"},{"start":4351.901,"end":4378.153,"text":"對,那是多少人?13個人。對,那第二批的話他們在今年會納入受訓到明年會可能會派職有15個人這樣加起來就有28個人我們現在編列有大概60個的國防法官的職缺未來會放在不光是未來處理這些相關的案件在部隊裡面也會有一些國防法官來協助處理這些相關的案件這個人力我們有規劃所以言下之意就是說編列了60人那麼目前預期的會先補上"},{"start":4379.474,"end":4383.238,"text":"草案案件中的軍人權益事件處理法草案案件中的軍人權益事件處理法草案案件中的軍人權益事件處理"},{"start":4403.096,"end":4423.166,"text":"其實就本席所知,你們在去年考試的時候是不是還跟這個所謂的司法考試放在同一天?去年考試的時候沒有,今年的公布的這次考試,今年113年國防法務官考試的筆試時間跟司法官律師二次是同一天。你們這個是一個很有風險的行為喔?"},{"start":4428.022,"end":4447.249,"text":"因為我特別整理出來了就是我們國防法務官、司法官跟律師報考的相關的資格以及他們的這個所謂薪水的比較啦當然我說實話啦我希望我們未來訂定了一個好的法律之後我們需要有優質的這種執行的法務官那麼以國防法務官目前的話"},{"start":4452.011,"end":4463.639,"text":"法律、司法、財經法、政治法、海洋法相關科系畢業都可以來報考,哨位起薪52,210元。司法官考試是政治、法律、行政相關畢業。受訓時只有"},{"start":4467.942,"end":4491.294,"text":"四萬九千三百四十塊但是一旦成為檢察官或法官的話月薪九萬九至於律師的話我們知道實習的時候三萬多到三萬五之間但是後來自己開業或受聘的話我想薪水絕對是超過五萬甚至六萬以上這不一定甚至於他可以自己來執業其實從薪水來看的話"},{"start":4494.888,"end":4512.543,"text":"委員講得很對,但是當軍人也要有一份使命感。我們第一批的國防法務官也有很好的背景學歷的,有四位同仁,他們也是一樣報考、授訊、任官。第二批的話,報考的人員我記得是300,"},{"start":4514.124,"end":4519.889,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權"},{"start":4537.543,"end":4550.401,"text":"以數據來講,它會比外面高,但是我們在部隊裡面的團體生活、跑則感情,還有融入這個社會這個團體以後,會有一番,更有一番體會,我跟委員做這樣報告。好,本席其實還是希望就是說,當然這個從軍報國是一份榮耀啦,"},{"start":4553.906,"end":4554.946,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":4576.391,"end":4597.444,"text":"這個所謂的比例或是薪資的數目當然它只是一個其中一項的比較但是我會希望在這個部分能夠有機會讓更多的年輕朋友能夠進來作為服務。好,謝謝。好,謝謝林楚英委員。來,部長次長請回。接下來進行詢答委員羅美玲委員。"},{"start":4608.3,"end":4611.721,"text":"事件處理法草案 案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。七、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":4636.305,"end":4637.466,"text":"審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人審查"},{"start":4664.544,"end":4689.572,"text":"海歸的義男他們在服兵役的時候會遇到哪些問題呢?因為一般上他們可能語言是不同那本席大概有列出了三個他們應該在軍中會遇到的問題第一個就是說沒有辦法來理解這個軍令那如果義男他不懂的中文或是台語自然就沒有辦法理解軍官的這個命令所以容易造成一些誤解"},{"start":4690.672,"end":4693.553,"text":"國防、司法及法制委員會徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":4716.22,"end":4732.163,"text":"結果被判智能偏低被驗退。」實際上他是高學歷的一個海歸的一男這是真實發生的事情那甚至也有從美國回來的我們所俗稱的ABC他自願入伍可是呢卻遭到霸凌"},{"start":4732.463,"end":4736.147,"text":"條文修正草案案。五、審查行政院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。六、審查行政院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":4749.062,"end":4773.445,"text":"我跟委員報告,聽到這些事情發生,都很遺憾的事情。但是我們國軍一向包容講說,以合於規定的、該要入營的,我們都予以接納。但的的確確有很多,因為他生活的背景、環境不同,他到部隊以後,他適應力也可能會有些差別。但國軍從新訓一來報到,到他整個服役期間,"},{"start":4774.366,"end":4792.773,"text":"我跟委員報告,唯一有個好處,就是他周邊這些跑者會互相幫忙,互相扶持。當然,我們也難免會發覺有些幹部他本身心態就不對,他對人講話態度或者用的這個腔調都會刺激別人,這是我們教育訓練的問題。"},{"start":4794.033,"end":4810.654,"text":"所以我跟委員報告講我這些問題我是承認有少部分存在但我並不以為少部分我就認為無所謂這將來會變成一個通病蠻可惜的所以我們會加強我們幹部的教育訓練還有跟大家相處之道"},{"start":4811.595,"end":4833.732,"text":"多方面管道切入,最起碼有意願到軍中服務,而他一開頭環境不太能適應的人,最起碼他的緩衝期當中他會得到一些幫助,也看到好的未來。部長,其實我想要請教的就是議員的這部分,有時候他進到軍中他聽不懂,"},{"start":4834.973,"end":4859.243,"text":"軍官或是他的學長在說什麼就產生了一些誤會那這誤會可能會造成彼此之間的一些所以我剛有提到了或是不適應或是霸凌的這個事件我給我給國防部一個建議像我們的檢查體系像法院等等司法院等等他們都已經建立了蠻完善的這個所謂的通譯制度"},{"start":4860.243,"end":4876.53,"text":"就針對這些海歸的這次異難我們希望就是說提供議員上的這個支持跟支援所以我們也希望國防部也有這樣子的這個制度我想請教我們國防部做得到嗎其實很多部會都已經有所謂的同意制度了"},{"start":4877.21,"end":4899.398,"text":"我跟委員報告,這些要達到什麼目標啊,我講之後我也不敢保證。但我覺得講說他不光是語言的問題,這對他本身,由於原來語言他沒辦法接納,這是一個事實。但重點在哪裡?在他的幹部還有周飛鷹、袍澤對他的態度。如果說他們大家有這種互相關切、袍澤這種心態的話,他這樣會有人去幫他。"},{"start":4902.239,"end":4919.159,"text":"官部對他的講話也會有所礙,不管步調各方面都跟人家一般不一樣,這要有耐心。我跟委員報告,我當教育班長的時候,我就遇到過,我這個班裡面大約有一班以上的人從國外回來的,有香港、有美國的,後來怎麼樣帶他們?"},{"start":4922.433,"end":4934.285,"text":"國防、司法及法制委員會第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第11屆第2會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會"},{"start":4939.89,"end":4964.62,"text":"我跟委員我們只能夠看狀況來視線來調整但我沒辦法把大到這個編制表裡面每個單位要幾個同意人員同意人員還分很多英文、法文、廣東話所以我在這裡要建立國防部我們應該要跟法務部跟司法院跟單位單位來做聯繫我或者是用共享人才庫的這個方式"},{"start":4965.64,"end":4975.763,"text":"這次因為我們在實際上有看到一些實例所以我們也希望說國防部能夠建立一套完善的體制對這些海貴的藝能來講其實也是一個友善的一個福裕的這個環境這個建議給國防部來做參考因為這次修法其實本期也有提出相關的這個提案所以我請國防部審慎來看待這件事情"},{"start":4990.407,"end":5017.536,"text":"這位委員我們應該要把他給納進來好不好請法律事項單獨再跟委員做一個詳細說明好謝謝羅美玲好謝謝部長請回我們接下來進行詢問的委員是黃仁委員謝謝主席有請邱部長來部長請"},{"start":5028.366,"end":5055.516,"text":"黃委員好 部長好有關於我們陸海空的這個懲罰法的新政的一個罰款所以這邊有一天本席有點疑問就是是不是移植跟我們公務員的懲罰的相關議題好像變成了移植的一個草案因為為什麼"},{"start":5057.523,"end":5061.689,"text":"我看這個新增了一個懲罰類型的罰款"},{"start":5064.575,"end":5085.96,"text":"這些罰款的罰薪的差別是什麼?那陸海空的懲罰法和新增的罰款是參考公務員懲罰而懲戒法第9條和第17條公務員的懲罰而懲戒法的懲戒處而處分,也是同時有罰款和罰縫,但"},{"start":5088.081,"end":5105.758,"text":"法官法帶第50條對法官之懲戒處分,就不是罰薪只罰款。這些差別希望國防部可以釐清,不是只是把公務員的懲戒法的東西移植過來。"},{"start":5107.841,"end":5119.792,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍"},{"start":5134.105,"end":5157.144,"text":"我在任職服役期間有犯了相關的錯那一個退伍的人那你說再罰薪他已經沒有薪可以領了所以說罰款主要是針對這些類似的人當然另外還有一個是剝奪減少退出給予等等這些懲罰的種類會針對不同的情狀當事人不同的情狀還有他不同的一個過犯的行為然後會去給他做一個釋切的一個處罰這個這個"},{"start":5162.484,"end":5177.975,"text":"這個罰款跟罰縫的一個立場上是不是引用了公務員的懲罰法?參考,我們有參考參考對不對?原本國軍就有這個制度,當初像編列也是跟公務員一道做一個比對的"},{"start":5180.097,"end":5207.656,"text":"這個事要做解釋,因為我今天說好像有疑似過來的一些疑義所以我相信你們既然要有關於新增的罰款裡面就是針對陸海空的懲罰法應該你們自己本身很清楚這引用是不是公務員的懲戒法而且你們要有兩種的一個說辭這樣的話就比較不會混淆視聽好不好"},{"start":5208.937,"end":5224.869,"text":"那另外就是查我國在現行的法例的罰款的不多,罰款屬於內部懲罰,罰款懲罰的這個範圍同時跨越重大懲罰和非重大懲罰。"},{"start":5225.819,"end":5237.312,"text":"更重要是涉及到財產的懲罰,程序就必須嚴謹,新增罰款就涉及到部隊什麼層級的長官可以實行罰款,誰可以財量,罰款多寡,"},{"start":5241.096,"end":5261.899,"text":"等問題,這個部分國防部部長你來回答。所以我跟委員報告,這當初一定要很慎重納入考慮。當初為什麼有些法規有,但執行起來有點紊亂。就在哪個層級可以做決定,好像大家沒有注意。所以有些層級不夠的人,他做了決定以後,都執行了,都發覺不對。"},{"start":5263.3,"end":5280.704,"text":"所以我們為了避免內案再生,我們列一個表,什麼層級它有什麼權責。我想這樣把它給劃分清楚,對將來推動工作來講也有一個意義。當然一定要劃分清楚。有關於,第二個是關於美國眾議院通過的印太安全普通"},{"start":5281.805,"end":5294.435,"text":"撥款的一個法案。」美國參議院在4月20日通過印太安全補充的撥款法案根據美國眾議院撥款"},{"start":5295.802,"end":5322.835,"text":"撥款委員會的新聞稿裏面這筆款項直接到提到臺灣有關兩項分別為20億元用於在為臺灣和印太地區其他重要盟友和安全夥伴提供軍事融資以及19億美元用於普通向臺灣和地區夥伴提供的國防物資和國防服務有這麼一回事吧?是,有這回事"},{"start":5324.019,"end":5325.72,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":5347.632,"end":5364.617,"text":"經備品項與服務。」請問部長,這樣如果實際上有新增項目,哪些項目是可以由我方提出的一個意見?我跟委員報告,它這個所謂這種資源,它有分類別,哪些用於平常訓練,或者哪些用於裝備。"},{"start":5368.618,"end":5391.404,"text":"這個當初定的這個類別以後啊都可以談的不想他這樣依賴這筆錢要哪裡哪一條可以用哪一條不能用這個東西要談所以我目前我們可以掌握到講說我們希望講我們期望獲得的都會大在裡面而且美方他既然是這種善意來啊也是互相談妥了但是他提供的是不是融資"},{"start":5393.224,"end":5419.298,"text":"有融資嗎?有融資啊!有融資嗎?對!對!對!好!是!謝謝部長!好!謝謝委員!好!謝謝黃院委員!他的融資是Grants?是贈予的?是無償的!無償的!好!請回!好!接下來進行詢答委員,莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員、莊瑞雄委員不在!何新淳委員、何新淳委員、何新淳委員不在!接下來進行詢答委員是?沈伯陽委員!"},{"start":5429.495,"end":5454.835,"text":"謝謝主席,那有請法律師好了,我想說是法律師好,沈市長委員好好,市長好那我想說聚焦,因為今天畢竟我們是要討論這一個這兩部法律,那我們想說既然之後要開公聽會那我們先看一下到底哪幾個法條是我們比較需要去注意的那第一個我先快速的一個理解一下這是之前這個是應該是舊有的流程圖"},{"start":5455.916,"end":5474.563,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案"},{"start":5484.417,"end":5503.102,"text":"我跟委員簡單報告,如果說是以軍人權益事件處理法來講,您現在看到您修的這個圖,上面這一類的訴願,訴願現在是在國防部的訴願會在處理。那國防部訴願會現在處理的是官司兵即大過以上,或是太處、退伍等等,這些是在訴願這邊來處理。那它借用的是訴願法。"},{"start":5504.122,"end":5507.444,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":5528.274,"end":5557.116,"text":"做了很久也很有成效,但是問題是他都沒有一個法律的一個依據,這個其實也討論了很久。那第三個,申訴,現在懲罰法裡面有相關的一個申訴的機制,那這一次的修法我們就是把懲罰規定了以後,那所有的救濟我們把它單獨列出來,列出來一個公務員有保訓會,但是保訓會不處理軍人,教師有教師的救濟制度,學生有學生的救濟制度,甚至於受刑人都有監獄刑刑法都有規定他的救濟制度,"},{"start":5557.956,"end":5585.513,"text":"維度軍人要嘛借用訴願法,要嘛是自己訂的全保的行政規則,那要嘛是懲罰法裡面只有申訴的這一個,就是這麼一個單獨的條文,不夠完整。所以說這一次我們在整個檢討了之後,我們覺得說應該就軍人的權益的部分,從怎麼樣受理案件,怎麼樣去處理,怎麼樣到外面的司法機關去救濟,都應該要有一個比較完整的一個相關的規劃。最後再跟我們報告,現行的陸海空軍懲罰法裡面,它有名列只有"},{"start":5586.153,"end":5604.921,"text":"撤職、降階、降級、悔貨等等這種重大懲罰才明定可以到外面的行政機關去救濟。這個108年的大法官的解釋,785號解釋,也有某個程度也有漢格,所以我們都是一併的做了三年多的研討,然後把這個東西單獨出來做一個立法,以上。"},{"start":5605.598,"end":5625.141,"text":"那這樣的話其實對我來講尤其是中間權保這一塊他把他這個名畫應該是蠻重要的那但是我自己在看這個法條的時候我覺得有幾個這個第一個當然就是懲罰法這邊有一些列舉這個我覺得沒什麼問題那右邊這個權益事件處理法跟你剛剛講的這個一樣就是說他把這個權保會的這個功能直接把它放上來"},{"start":5625.922,"end":5646.3,"text":"但這邊我有幾個小地方就是說呢這是之前洪仲秋案先跳過就是說一開始今天這個馬雲軍委員在講的時候他也有提出這個疑慮說這會不會是以前這一個軍神的一個附辟那其實以前在洪仲秋案的時候呢最主要其實是指在非戰時的部分讓他可以進去一般的這一個法院來做審理"},{"start":5647.04,"end":5647.561,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":5665.674,"end":5667.395,"text":"人權保障處和法律服務處,現在看起來又要把他們拉回來來做這些剛剛講的第二部法律的審查。"},{"start":5696.394,"end":5721.845,"text":"報委,謝謝委員。這個中間我們都有在規劃。我跟委員報告,在102年修法之前,軍事法院主要處理的是刑事案件。處理刑事案件,那平時一到司法機關去了之後,我們的人員不是沒有事在那邊,我們把他編到部隊裡面去。他們在部隊裡面,他們可以協助部隊長做很多的事情,尤其近年來的話,做相關的軍事行動,協助這個ROE的這個推廣跟教育等等,這些我們都有在做。"},{"start":5722.085,"end":5724.147,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":5740.759,"end":5743.86,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":5769.244,"end":5789.206,"text":"對,因為這個司法院應該是要進來,這也是為什麼我們要跟這個司法法制要聯席的一個很重要的原因。然後最後一個我想再問的,這是現行的制度,就是說當然很多人會覺得說,那之後這個它的獨立性、公正性等等之類的,我看到這個巧芯委員的這個提案裡面也有在講說,那是不是要排除特定的人,我覺得這個在公聽會可以討論。"},{"start":5789.967,"end":5807.225,"text":"但我這邊想要問的事情就是說的確就是說再往下一個層次我們今天要有外部人員在這一個全保聽起來是好事嘛對不對要有公平但是我舉個例子不好意思我大概30秒就是說像監獄刑刑法他們之前在做這個監獄相關視察的時候他們也有引進外部委員"},{"start":5807.905,"end":5808.205,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":5824.979,"end":5851.923,"text":"這一個僅限的外部人員到底有沒有這個量能,以及說他的破可能在哪裡,我覺得這個可能是之後必須要研議的,不然的話,好不容易設計這個制度,結果呢,本來是要有他的獨立性跟實質生理,結果到最後失去這個獨立性之後,那反而又回歸以前的樣貌,這可能不是我們所樂見的。好,謝謝王偉陽委員,好,陳市長請回。接下來進行詢答委員是鍾嘉斌委員,鍾嘉斌委員,鍾嘉斌委員不在。接下來進行詢答委員徐巧芯委員。"},{"start":5866.696,"end":5870.062,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請邱國臣部長。邱國臣部長請。許委員好。"},{"start":5879.219,"end":5908.645,"text":"部長好我想今天針對我們接下來要新增的兩部法律其實對於我國國軍來說我認為都是相當有必要的所以我們原則上會來支持那呢在這個陸海空軍懲罰法裡面那也被一些這個司法人員認為有一些偷渡到了刑事法裡面的制度跟概念那到底合不合宜呢希望能夠好好的來討論畢竟像是我們另外一部叫做公務人員懲戒法"},{"start":5909.245,"end":5932.658,"text":"裡面也沒有塞進刑事法的東西。」好,那我們就先看刑事訴訟法的第230條第一項。下列各員為司法警官、受僱檢察官之指揮之審查犯罪。它裡面包含了警察官長、憲兵隊的官長、士官、依法令屬於特定事項、得刑司法警官之職權者。"},{"start":5933.898,"end":5954.325,"text":"行事訴訟法231條第1項,下列各原為司法檢查,應受檢察官及法令警官之命令偵查犯罪,包含檢察憲兵,依法令與特定事項,得行司法檢查之職權者。"},{"start":5955.405,"end":5971.368,"text":"也就是說呢,檢察官的系統裡面,他們本來就有警察、憲兵、調查局、檢視官等等司法警察或警官可以指揮。那我們部隊的司法案件比較不多的情況之下,"},{"start":5972.349,"end":5992.636,"text":"憲兵隊調查官處理,難道不夠嗎?為什麼要把軍法人員再拉下去?感覺上面一般來說是覺得好像有一點跌床架屋的情形。再來,法紀調查已經搶了原本屬於監察的工作,現在還要多搶一個憲兵隊的工作嗎?在這個設計的部分,布板是怎麼想的?"},{"start":5996.892,"end":6014.773,"text":"我跟委員報了兩點,第一個搶憲民工作不會,憲民工作很多,我們實際上是減輕他工作是我們努力的目標。第二個,剛才講到調查官有,有的用疊蟲架,又把軍法放進來。事實上他的內容形態不一樣,調查官他只對一個案件調查。"},{"start":6015.734,"end":6037.334,"text":"但他的調查結果由誰來判定,而不是調查官來判定。所以這個層次不同。但另外一講,我們累積了那麼多人的經驗,也發現軍法存在必要是有的。為什麼?因為很多案件他已經牽扯到可能跟其他單位、跟其他的部門會有關聯,所以要有軍法。但這個調查官沒有辦法介入。"},{"start":6038.054,"end":6055.687,"text":"所以我想這個分工職長啊,這種過去啊,本來有這種分工有職長,但在質詢當中可能有了偏差。所以我們要重新來律定完了以後,把這個職長劃分很清楚,不會有跌床架屋的問題。所以就是職長必須要清楚,並且跌床架屋嘛。"},{"start":6056.167,"end":6077.4,"text":"那第二個問題是呢?檢察官介入之前的程序與介入之後的程序是差在哪裡?違紀調查變成屬於行政性質的行為檢察官指揮偵辦就突然是行事性質的偵查很難想像說我們的行政行為怎麼會突然變成行事行為"},{"start":6078.18,"end":6078.54,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":6097.634,"end":6121.997,"text":"你今天檢察官介入前跟介入後的程序,如果是違紀調查是行政的,檢察官指揮偵犯又是行事的,像這個到底是行政還是行事,我們後續法律通過之後,我們應該能夠如何區分呢?我個人有經驗,我跟你們做個簡單的說明,這往往就行政大跟這個好像這個內部,一個檢調的介入以後,它差別很大在哪裡?我們現在講的是我們內部裡面。"},{"start":6123.078,"end":6137.659,"text":"但調查案以後它不代表一個結論所以很多事情一定要經過檢調檢調有它的規則檢調查了一半你不能擅自發表你的言論等於是為了先把它給定罪這是很不道德的"},{"start":6138.16,"end":6163.573,"text":"所以我們為什麼會有這種編組,也就為了防止這個工作,這個現象產生。詳細的部分,我是請法律司長再跟您做簡單的說明。有問題,來跟我們說明一下。我跟委員簡單報告,一個違紀事件,它有的時候外觀看起來是一個違紀事件。那這個違紀事件,當不論是內部的法務人員也好,或是監察官也好,開始調查了之後,有的時候一查才發覺說,喔,這裡面可能有涉嫌違法。"},{"start":6163.993,"end":6189.418,"text":"他可能有不管是竊盜也好未照文書也好要根據不同的那個態樣但是一開始違法之後那這個時候違法本來就是應該由依法有權偵辦的人來辦那這個時候如果說程序全部再從頭跑一趟那有點浪費就是有點不經濟所以這個相關的借接的制度我們當初跟法務部都有去做過一些協調如果在任何一個違紀案件當你開始查的過程當你發覺他有可能違法"},{"start":6190.099,"end":6190.94,"text":"庭庭庭庭庭庭庭庭"},{"start":6204.921,"end":6224.809,"text":"就是偵查當中草案第44條裏面寫到偵查當中的證據應該要報請檢察官同意之後移送權責長官辦理懲罰那如果檢察官他沒有同意呢那檢察官是否會容易陷入兩難以及呢究竟是不是權責長官來辦理懲罰"},{"start":6227.47,"end":6245.358,"text":"會不會陷入違反偵查不公開的規定?也就是說因為過去這個所謂的偵查在檢察官的體系他是完全一條龍的他要對的對象其實也只有跟法官這邊還有他自己的自律那如果現在的狀況是檢察官同意後要移送的是權責長官的這個部分"},{"start":6247.499,"end":6270.251,"text":"所謂的偵查不公開的問題,還有檢察官同不同意的問題,他會使得在這個制度上面的運作跟過去我們只是在一般司法檢調的運作有一個很大的落差。所以最後也要請你們補充的是,偵查不公開在這個法裡面它會適用於哪些主體,有沒有包含行政調查?"},{"start":6271.496,"end":6279.823,"text":"函請審議:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查行政院函請審議:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、審查行政院函請審議:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、審查行政院函請審議:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、審查行政院函請審議:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、審查行政院函請審議:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、審查行政院函請審議:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、審查行政院函請審議:「軍人權益事件"},{"start":6301.36,"end":6302.541,"text":"草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":6320.288,"end":6343.159,"text":"行事偵查不會影響到行政調查,行政調查我們該做的東西我們還是做。」但是因為我們平常是問很多問題,只要一旦進入到行政、行事調查了,你們就很容易告訴我們說,因為他已經進到行事調查,所以行政調查的部分也不予提供。那這樣子來說的話,是不是就對我們在問政上就會產生一些問題呢?"},{"start":6344.299,"end":6349.521,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":6383.635,"end":6384.678,"text":"謝謝主席,麻煩邱部長"},{"start":6394.019,"end":6422.011,"text":"座位好部長我有幾個問題就教於您第一個我們在去年吧3月6號2023年3月6號我們在這裡討論有關美軍東亞軍備庫存的事情那我們知道這個軍備庫存不叫火藥庫這個軍備庫存是幫助盟友或者美軍輕裝到位的時候可以取得他必要的裝備我以下詢問如果部長認為不宜回答的我都尊重因為當時你在那邊回答說"},{"start":6423.73,"end":6447.344,"text":"確實有跟我方在談,雙方在處理這個事情。像以色列有它的軍備庫,菲律賓也有,其他國家也都有。那一般外界詮釋說,如果東亞軍備庫存在台灣可以設置的話,大概是兩件事情。第一個,它等於是它的裝備來供我們使用。另外一個是,他們的人會來到這裡使用。所以我現在先請教部長,"},{"start":6450.475,"end":6465.204,"text":"去年我們提到的問題到現在也蠻英年了有沒有新的進度?我認為很感謝委員給我這個機會我再次說明這所謂的庫儲這界定很多今天假如說我們做一個維保中心它自然會有一個裝備來像這種"},{"start":6468.226,"end":6481.961,"text":"所以我們並不建議講說因為這個事情知識體大,也涉及到政治的問題。你把這些裝備放你,那好端端為什麼要把國外裝備放到我們這邊來?可能會引起政治方面或兩岸之間這些問題。所以軍備跟軍火其實還有一點差別。"},{"start":6485.365,"end":6511.526,"text":"是,有差別,差別蠻大的,所以我們在目前講說這有個提案嘛,都可以談。但目前這些位置、項目、方法經過去年講說在談了,過了一年了,有沒有新的進度,適不適合在這邊討論,請部長回答。我跟委員不好,不太適合在這個地方討論,但是我們的進度不想說特別明確,但最起碼這計畫概略的都已經有個方向了。具體的項目。"},{"start":6515.789,"end":6539.463,"text":"徐巧芯等一倍範圍很廣,從渦輪扇片到甚至於一個螺絲釘,甚至於當然到相關的火藥等等。那你不進入現象,本席尊重。我現在請教,印太安全補充法案在眾議院剛通過,那昨天參議院進行叫做預言投票,大概也會過。那拜登會最快的時間把四套法競速通過成為法律。"},{"start":6540.043,"end":6543.205,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":6563.88,"end":6564.901,"text":"通過法案後進行調整,接下來就按程序進行。」"},{"start":6584.7,"end":6589.524,"text":"草案事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具草案案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具草案案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具草案案。"},{"start":6611.341,"end":6624.888,"text":"現在在軍事服務的部分大概指的大概是訓練啊等等那個部長有沒有可以揭露的就是有關這些直接提供等於是援助給台灣送給台灣的軍事服務大概涵蓋哪些類別"},{"start":6627.011,"end":6652.092,"text":"法務院建議這邊私下再跟委員做報告本席尊重物資大概也是不宜在這邊討論不過這個是一個正向的啦等於是把台灣第一個當作盟國對待第二個這是提升彼此的互動關係也代表台灣的重要性跟互信的程度所以這個是對台灣來講當然也實質的資源的挹注我最後一分多鐘我要請教部長那這個"},{"start":6655.717,"end":6676.015,"text":"有一個東西叫夜點費,其實跟我們今天要講的懲戒相關有關係。夜點費大概一天是60塊錢,就是值暫勤的時候,值暫勤一天60塊,每一個人。我們值班有夜點費。我們一班暫勤多久會值一次?平均數?"},{"start":6678.254,"end":6680.997,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院"},{"start":6695.958,"end":6720.82,"text":"導致非本務的事情一直讓我們基層的官兵、軍官、士官、士兵過度繁重。那我看到部長也承諾在你的任內一定要盡量把它減輕啦。但我也知道這樣的質詢很危險。常常我們在這邊討論要減輕,從上級單位下到基層單位之後每個人又多一大堆報告要打。我是不希望看到這樣的事情。我剛剛為什麼要提這個夜點費?"},{"start":6722.83,"end":6726.471,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":6748.905,"end":6755.106,"text":"每個月有多少?如果有一個人他一個月領一千兩百元的夜點費看起來不錯每個月多一千二但事實上你知道嗎他等於三十天值了二十天三十天值了二十天"},{"start":6775.486,"end":6776.467,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":6794.266,"end":6799.768,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":6819.028,"end":6824.164,"text":"甚至於因為胃病吐血昏倒在廁所治好之後第二天又排他值4、6。"},{"start":6827.434,"end":6848.152,"text":"這個拜託部長我現在不就單一個案我現在告訴你說你可以全面先去調這些數據來做一個monitor來做一個觀測看了一下沒有什麼問題就算了有問題調整這個時候可以適度的減輕不必要的那如果是人力不足也該補充好不好所以我請我們總督這個地方要做一個通牌來做一個好謝謝我們也請總督注意一下好謝謝"},{"start":6853.447,"end":6876.156,"text":"接下來請陳佩玉委員陳佩玉委員陳佩玉委員陳佩玉委員不在現在請馬文君委員謝主席麻煩請部長來邱部長請"},{"start":6885.564,"end":6886.765,"text":"權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":6909.373,"end":6911.937,"text":"在這裡我們看到很多軍紀的問題層出不窮而且現在在我們兩岸或者在我們區域周邊其實在不穩定的情況之下軍紀是非常重要的這個部分我們同意"},{"start":6924.635,"end":6938.869,"text":"應該要趨嚴而且要有相當的一個工具手段可以作為維持紀律的這樣子的一個條件可是不代表我們可以任意的或者空白授權的方式因為這樣子會衍生未來"},{"start":6940.771,"end":6945.596,"text":"更大的問題。」我現在簡單舉出幾個,因為像這個部分,當初我想要請教一下,因為在新訂的法案裡面,對於軍人的懲罰會依照他的身份來區分,可是這個過去當然在我們的軍法裡面是有的,比如說撤職、降階、記過身屆,"},{"start":6962.472,"end":6963.533,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯"},{"start":6981.277,"end":7009.064,"text":"我跟委員報告,在以往我們有軍法方面事項的規定都有,就在執行當中有時候認知不同,所以我們這一回修法主要把重點放哪裡,哪個層級可以做什麼決定,把它也劃分得很清楚。所以剛剛委員講的,它這個好像有點重複了,你要懲罰它,它要受到刑罰之責,我覺得當初好像也是這樣,因為你要把它給處理掉,它才能夠接受刑法。"},{"start":7009.844,"end":7014.606,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。四、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7031.753,"end":7040.277,"text":"有些我們說我們贊成你屈言可是不代表你可以這樣子這麼嚴重還包括你現在是加進多加了一個就是可以剝奪或減少他的退出給予這個過去是沒有的你什麼樣的狀況你可以讓人家的退出給予你用你的這個懲罰法的條件就因為你如果犯了刑法刑法還要重到說判判"},{"start":7060.865,"end":7073.24,"text":"判刑一年以上,他才可以去減少他的退出給予。」可是你在懲罰法裡面,你居然可以剝奪或減少高達五分之一到二分之一耶!這個是非常嚴重耶!什麼樣的態樣你會做到這樣子的一個懲處?"},{"start":7079.107,"end":7094.508,"text":"其實兩個問題我跟委員簡單的報告委員您說我們過去在處理軍法過去在處理刑事責任我舉個簡單的例子今天有一個官兵跑到了不正當場所到裡面去吸毒那他進出吸毒他就犯法了"},{"start":7094.949,"end":7108.992,"text":"但是進出不正當場所本來我們裡面有規範不准去不正當場所那他放假期間他跑到不正當場所去他有行政責任這個行政責任要處理懲罰法裡面現在也有嘛你吸毒然後不當了場所你現在懲罰法裡面就有啦你可以記過啊你累積三個大櫃以後他還是要太儲嘛"},{"start":7116.474,"end":7136.793,"text":"酒駕、造勢,有刑事責任,但現在的官兵酒駕、造勢會太處。懲罰法裡面也有啊,你現在有很多他都直接太處啦,你懲罰法現在有的,你現在只要軍事官兵他喝酒、酒駕或者不一定要造勢,你也是把他太處啦,這個還沒有"},{"start":7139.435,"end":7158.247,"text":"我現在很就是我們很持平的我們同意可是你像現在增加進來就是你怎麼可以有什麼樣的太陽可以讓你去剝奪或減少人家的退出機遇這是一個那你只要犯了刑法他本來就不行啊對不對你如果酒駕你們之前來說啊那之前沒有發現就被他退伍了那是我們的問題你居然沒有發現說他"},{"start":7167.374,"end":7170.022,"text":"如果他今天犯案,我們是不可以同意他退伍的。」"},{"start":7171.466,"end":7197.348,"text":"謝謝委員,我跟委員報告,剛講的是回應委員第一個問題,第二個問題就是剝奪減少退出給予,過去,這個也參考公務員的相關規範,過去一個人如果退伍了之後,我們對他的懲罰手段是很有限的,譬如說今天有一個人,他在在職期間,他做了很多不當的行為,退伍了之後兩年或是三年,你才發覺他這個行為非常嚴重,甚至於有損到國家安全的時候,"},{"start":7197.648,"end":7200.87,"text":"在行政上他必須要負的責任。」因為這個是你單位的問題可是你一旦法把它定下去你為了一個兩個甚至你自己不查結果你會去影響到很多其他人的權益因為你有這條法它很多就會被用上了就是你這樣的剝奪跟"},{"start":7214.837,"end":7222.08,"text":"檢免其實是不合理的因為它不符比例原則因為你是懲戒法在這裡因為時間的關係我想這個都還可以還可以再討論另外一個就是當初洪仲秋案為什麼會特別有第10條就是你長官如果要做什麼樣的命令命令的時候他必須要有文書的資料可是你們這一次把文書這個部分拿掉了他主要的原因是什麼"},{"start":7241.377,"end":7241.697,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":7259.687,"end":7261.548,"text":"懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。六、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":7285.779,"end":7297.445,"text":"國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制"},{"start":7313.234,"end":7331.163,"text":"從開始1月到現在,我們軍中已經發生了13起這樣子的自殺的案件,死亡。另外3起是自殺未遂。這裡面當然有3起是在中科院發生的,而且它的時間點很特別。我今天為什麼要特別提出來,還有"},{"start":7331.923,"end":7340.35,"text":"擬事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。七、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。"},{"start":7360.606,"end":7371.589,"text":"沒有上班的時間為什麼會自殺?」我現在特別提出來是有一些如果是有不當的指示或者有一些他們認為不妥的那會面臨到什麼樣的問題這個跟法都有相關所以就這個部分我們還是希望可以清楚的說明白因為洪仲丘案當時大家引起我們"},{"start":7382.711,"end":7399.71,"text":"整個大家社會輿論的壓力所以軍法就很快的把它拿掉那你現在不要再製造更多的問題我們同意其實你應該在管教上面有更多的工具手段可是不代表可以借用這個機會會衍生更多的問題的法條在這裡出現好不好"},{"start":7403.574,"end":7426.723,"text":"謝謝馬文俊委員來部長視像請回我剛剛說的那個也請查查一下齁有13起的這樣子的不能只有表面的理由背後的因素可能要查清楚因為不管時間點或其他的因素我們希望可以查查清楚他已經不是個案如果是檢調的話我覺得軍方基於保護炮轍也應該要求檢調我要一個答案"},{"start":7427.443,"end":7429.704,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。"},{"start":7458.128,"end":7460.816,"text":"我想我就直接請法律事務室省市長來,省市長請"},{"start":7467.077,"end":7485.213,"text":"您剛才特別提到有關我們的法制官、法務人員的人才培養。我非常認同你的看法。我舉一個重要的例子。多年前,海軍在做年度的戰術總驗收,在對抗的過程中間,因為有一位艦隊長帶著操演部隊離開了防空識別區。"},{"start":7490.29,"end":7495.731,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。"},{"start":7513.755,"end":7532.855,"text":"我們講的不是交戰準則或法規不同的部隊不同層級那不能再沿用用標準作為程序那麼當時這個現象我們今天聽到你講如果而後在重大的演訓過程不管是聯兵旅程級以上空軍聯隊以上或海軍艦隊以上"},{"start":7534.517,"end":7543.099,"text":"如果他的操演指揮官旁邊有一位法務官,適時提供整個ROE在看法、建言上,這種錯誤會減免。」"},{"start":7557.902,"end":7572.711,"text":"陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案 案。二、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案》案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案》案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案》案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案》案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案》案。七、審查"},{"start":7581.867,"end":7595.755,"text":"有參照美軍的精神有降階,但是產生了一個例外現象,細節分析我們在修正文裡面提供了,就是說美軍的忠孝是服役年限是28年,"},{"start":7597.927,"end":7598.488,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":7616.846,"end":7619.769,"text":"公平處置人權保障環境過程中間有特殊案例要給他做一個修正的方法。」"},{"start":7637.91,"end":7641.493,"text":"降階、逼退草案案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具草案案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具草案。七、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具草案案。"},{"start":7663.123,"end":7688.328,"text":"謝謝陳永康委員。司長請回。接下來進行詢問委員陳俊宇委員。好,謝謝主席。那有請我們邱部長。邱文正部長請。"},{"start":7697.23,"end":7710.3,"text":"好部長早部長早好謝謝部長那也謝謝我們今天列席的各位這個我們國防部的相關同仁喔那我們今天要審查的是陸海空軍這個懲罰法還有這個軍人權益事件的處理法"},{"start":7713.522,"end":7742.259,"text":"那這兩部法對於我們國軍的兄弟姊妹來說他們的權益影響可謂相當的甚大那在修法的這個整個過程當中也應該要未雨綢繆考慮到將來可能發生的這個情境那首先我想就跨國軍事交流的這個問題來做一個討論有鑑於我們台灣與這個其他國家常有軍事上的交流那層級還有規模也都逐漸的在提升當中"},{"start":7743.32,"end":7748.976,"text":"那可能有互相派駐的這個授訓、協訓甚至是參加軍演的這個機會"},{"start":7750.714,"end":7772.9,"text":"那兩國的國軍之間的互動會牽涉到法令適用及司法管轄的相關問題。歷史上來看,過去美國協防台灣的時候,若美軍在台犯事,美軍可主張有外交豁免權,不受我國司法管轄,並且將美軍引渡回美國來受審。"},{"start":7773.9,"end":7781.683,"text":"而後來歷經談判簽署協議之後才明示美軍在台沒有這個所謂的豁免特權。如今當年的這個協議條約內容也已經作廢了。那現在"},{"start":7788.373,"end":7816.736,"text":"我國跟盟國的這個軍事合作密切度再度來到這個高點。」我想請教部長對於可能會遇到的兩種情境第一是他國的軍人在台灣違法是否會接受我國這個司法管轄權的管轄第二是我國的國軍在他國若有違法的情勢是否會受到該國法律的管轄或是能夠交由本國自己來處理"},{"start":7818.793,"end":7843.425,"text":"我跟委員報告,能請問法律司司長跟你做簡單的說明嗎?謝謝委員。委員您剛剛前面也講得很清楚,當初有中美協防的時候,那是另外一個階段,那個是有特別的規定。那現在您舉的這個例子,如果外國的訓練不論是度假還是交流簡單的這種來這邊受訓或是開會等等,他如果在我們國家犯了法的話,當然是由我們國家來管轄。"},{"start":7844.185,"end":7870.219,"text":"我們國家同樣的派到國外去念書的或是說做其他的度假休假也好他的身份雖然軍人在那邊犯了法的話也是由他們來管轄只有我記得外交部他們那邊有一個相關的外交人員的豁免那個不是不是在這個交流的範圍那個是固定的一些特定的人那他們有那個在那個交流豁免範圍之內的其他的這種一般的交流就是看在哪裡辦法當地國不會放棄他的管轄權"},{"start":7871.984,"end":7893.552,"text":"所以未來我們臺灣的部分就是會遵照這個方式來處理了目前是朝著這個好那在現今的這種國際局勢發展之下那可能預期跨國間的這種軍事交流會更加的頻繁而我們跟這個軍事合作的對象也可能會沒有邦交的這種情況越來越多"},{"start":7894.172,"end":7913.711,"text":"草案案件,可能牽涉到高度的政治因素以及我們國家這個地位的問題,我想請國防部這邊務必應該要積極的與他國來做討論,在平等的這個原則之下避免事件發生之後產生不必要的這種爭端,來引發所謂的這種政治衝突的事件。"},{"start":7915.799,"end":7940.035,"text":"再來是我想我們有關軍事審判制度的這個議題國防部在今年3月曾經舉辦過以軍事審判為主題的學術論壇那包括國防部的徐副部長及最高檢察署的刑總長都有與會那由這個法律司進行報告建議未來可以設置軍事行政訴訟庭恢復軍事檢查及這個軍法官參審軍法的案件"},{"start":7946.179,"end":7952.103,"text":"以及恢復軍事審判一到兩個審級。」我想請教部長就是"},{"start":7953.803,"end":7974.517,"text":"這場研討會所建議的內容都是我們國防部所主張的嗎?我跟委員報告這兩件,第一個是講說我們對於沒有邦交國家如果說是涉及人員違法,我想這不光國防部注意,而且外交部跟法務部也會介入,所以到時候我們把這個議題討論法,聯合其他部會一道來討論。"},{"start":7978.499,"end":7980.3,"text":"二、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":7994.71,"end":8004.843,"text":"我想這有必要大家先做溝通了解所以我想說這個都是共同的我們期望如何但他們可以把他們有沒有困難也做說明將來協調合作的這種所產生的問題比較好解決"},{"start":8011.75,"end":8034.721,"text":"那依照我們我國現行的這個平時的這個司法還有暫時的軍審的制度來說平時的這個軍法案件交由一般的司法機關來這個審理那軍方可能會有疑慮的說部隊的管理有別於一般的機關是否能夠適當的處分和判決那這個部分國防部應該要如何來觀察"},{"start":8035.681,"end":8062.552,"text":"這的確文憑發掘的問題,我要跟各位舉一個很簡單的例子。說在這個營區裡面有幾個兵員鬥毆,都由後來交給了外民一般法律以後,他之後審判結果是不予處分,因為他覺得你這個鬥毆根本沒有造成大家公共的危害,那這個的認知不同就會產生很大的差異,這也就以後我們要強化的地方。"},{"start":8064.275,"end":8091.878,"text":"好,那我想我們這個軍事審判的制度能夠這個完備的話我希望我們能夠更加的齊全這是攸關我們國家安全的大事那我們這個不論在法條上的修訂或是在審判制度上的變革都應該更加的謹慎將所有可能涉及的因素納進來通盤考量更必須要顧及我們官兵的個人權益以及這個人權的保障"},{"start":8092.738,"end":8117.583,"text":"這個部分我會請我們國防部相關部會應該要對於這個部分來加重來嚴以辦理。市長這我們努力的目標,重要目標我們會努力。好,那謝謝部長、謝謝市長。謝謝委員。謝謝陳俊宇委員。部長請回。那我們接下來進行詢問之前先宣告,我們待會在吳思堯委員詢問完我們休息五分鐘,還是在陳冠廷委員休息五分鐘?"},{"start":8120.619,"end":8123.342,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":8147.017,"end":8162.827,"text":"部長好行政院版的《陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案》對於軍官、士官、士兵的懲罰除原有的撤職、降階、降級、忌過、罰薪、申戒、減速之外新增了剝奪"},{"start":8164.188,"end":8184.097,"text":"退出給予在權責長官核定懲罰後,國防部可以剝奪退伍金、退休奉、善養金、退出給予生活補助費、優惠存款、利息等。」請問部長,新增這個剝奪、退出給予的懲罰原因為何?"},{"start":8185.077,"end":8199.888,"text":"就剛才我發現事實上有概略跟委員報告就是因為發覺他如果這個人要受到處分要罰款但他下個月就退了或者退了以後才發覺有這個案子出來要往前追"},{"start":8200.649,"end":8209.613,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":8229.403,"end":8250.762,"text":"其他有什麼考慮的嗎?沒有,我們大概就是參考公務員制定的一個規定,然後其他沒有特殊的原因,因為退伍以後他也無職可撤、無薪可罰,然後就是那些記過等等對他來講的話,已經沒有任何的懲罰的一個效果,所以說我們也參考公務員相關的規定,我們這次有增訂了這個規範。"},{"start":8253.944,"end":8276.59,"text":"對於剝奪軍人的退出給予,原本在《陸海空軍軍官事關服役條例》當中,它就有規定現役軍事官犯內亂、外患或貪污罪、判處有期徒刑之刑確定而未宣告緩刑或因案判處死刑無期徒刑確定者以及一、陸海空軍懲罰法規"},{"start":8278.57,"end":8301.915,"text":"定受撤職處分,不發退儲給予。」現在2016年我有看到11月民進黨有修正《陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例》加入現役退役軍人如洩漏機密、觸犯國家安全法、國家機密保護法等罪,將事刑責輕重,剝奪其權術部分退休奉。也就是說"},{"start":8307.406,"end":8322.02,"text":"原來軍人依照陸海空軍懲罰法遭撤職或犯有洩漏、機密、出安、國安等刑責,可以剝奪退儲給予,那這次的修法是不是擴大了剝奪退儲給予的適用範圍?"},{"start":8326.283,"end":8340.826,"text":"我跟委員報告原來規範服役條例規範的那些大概都是刑事責任附帶的後面的那個退出就是可能我記得是判刑確定之後什麼樣的刑度可能是剝奪他50%、20%等等原來是在服役條例裡面那樣規範"},{"start":8344.007,"end":8370.587,"text":"這次我們在修正的時候,我們有參考公務員相關的規範,我們對於已經退的人,然後發覺他在服役期間,一定是在服役期間,現役軍人身份的時候,他所犯的過犯責任的行政責任,可能會沒有辦法去做一個相關的處理。所以主要還是針對服役期間嗎?一定是服役期間。服役之後的行為規範。退伍以後不能懲罰。我要跟國防部提醒一下,"},{"start":8372.22,"end":8392.222,"text":"軍人的尊嚴我們國防部要捍衛實際上軍人為我們國家犧牲奉獻很大你動輒如果說要擴大今天懲罰的範圍連退休金都要納入就非常審慎這一點不知道部長同不同意我一定同意我自己也是軍人一份子嘛對 幫我支持"},{"start":8392.682,"end":8415.28,"text":"那我要問,按此次修正的第五條、第六條規定,包括違背或逾越法令執行勤務,違反長官命令或服務機關規範,待於監督所屬人員執行勤務或服務機關管理規範,其他於執行勤務時之不當行為,故意觸犯刑事法律,無故使用或持有毒品、迷幻藥、麻醉"},{"start":8416.02,"end":8441.301,"text":"藥品、酒駕拒絕酒測、性騷擾、性霸凌、違反廉政倫理行政或行政中立規範、未依法兼職或經營商業這些違紀行為都可以做重大懲處。」我想請問這重大懲處是包含20萬元以上財產懲罰嗎?上述的違紀行為是不是都有可能遭到剝奪、退儲、給予?有沒有可能?"},{"start":8441.921,"end":8446.946,"text":"保委員對他確實20萬以上的這些相關的懲罰是屬於重大懲罰是對那會"},{"start":8449.042,"end":8472.088,"text":"廓延到剝奪退儲給予。」我跟委員報告第5條第6條的規範第5條它就是勤務上的行為你在扶勤的時候的行為第6條原則上就是休假已經到營外去了我講的是會不會到剝奪退儲給予應該會但是如果說在營外的行為除非是列舉的那些事項我現在要講的是什麼"},{"start":8473.308,"end":8493.021,"text":"跟陸海空軍刑法不同,陸海空軍懲罰法較偏行政處罰。我認為,在行政懲處上對於剝奪退休金這麼嚴厲的懲處要謹慎,非常謹慎。公務人員違法失職需經懲戒法院的審理後才可以剝奪他的退休金。軍人有違紀行為,按照這個修正草案,請問是誰來剝奪他?"},{"start":8495.459,"end":8515.269,"text":"包委,我們將來會劃一個權責的區分,不是每一個人都可以...你是權責長官指派人員調查後核定懲處嘛對對於重大懲處要召開專案評議會、懲罰諮詢會嘛我必須說在公正度、嚴謹度跟受懲軍人懲罰權益保障救濟上面我覺得你覺得可以跟懲戒法院達到相同的標準嗎?"},{"start":8518.91,"end":8534.353,"text":"這就是我剛剛強調的我真的拜託國防部這個部分要非常審慎嚴謹不能變成是行政的濫權跟質疑請國防部審慎以上好謝謝羅志祥委員部長、市長請回接下來進行詢問委員林思明委員"},{"start":8544.636,"end":8571.542,"text":"謝謝主席,我請部長來,部長請評委又好部長好部長我想針對說我們今年開始的義務役開始實施義務役的人數總共是多少?那迄今為止有多少逃兵?"},{"start":8572.841,"end":8573.501,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":8596.848,"end":8602.55,"text":"草案事件處理法草案案。五、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":8618.777,"end":8636.05,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。七、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。八、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍"},{"start":8648.478,"end":8669.967,"text":"這方面做法最簡單的就是他一來以後就跟他說明違法犯紀的利弊。另外就是他對他的照顧。我們也知道一個由民轉兵的訓練過程,對一個來講說他承受壓力是可以想像的。所以我們多方的來輔導他。"},{"start":8671.488,"end":8690.583,"text":"所以說入伍我們有一個跟他做相關的入伍的未來入伍之後會有遇到什麼狀況跟他做說明入伍之後有沒有什麼關懷的機制就是要對他照顧不管建制幹部也好但是我們有沒有什麼樣的一個這個機制關懷機制"},{"start":8694.656,"end":8723.292,"text":"假設說我們發覺這個兵好像心理很不穩定,那我們軍中要怎麼樣來輔導他?這個是就心理輔導人員我們有的,但是不見得講說目前人力那麼充沛。但我跟委員報告,我們本身基本上軍中就有三個門卡可以來幫他。第一個就是他的建制單位裡的這些同仁,他的班長等等這些基層幹部,他有問題的話班長、排長、輔導長、聯長都可以出面,這是第一層。"},{"start":8724.212,"end":8724.672,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":8740.222,"end":8758.3,"text":"我比較想知道的就是我們的關懷機制剛剛你提到你有各種的一個做法但實際上我們有沒有軍中有一個關懷的單位特別對這些義務役特別去做如果在軍中發覺這個刑機很可疑"},{"start":8761.164,"end":8780.462,"text":"趕快找他來做相關的一個心理輔導,有沒有哪一個單位的一個設置,有沒有建置這樣的一個單位?委員好,我是政戰局副局長,那您報告,因為新訓來講它有一個特性,所有的新兵都從社會過來,它非常非常讓幹部感覺很陌生,所以我們在編制營級,"},{"start":8782.003,"end":8808.457,"text":"唯一在營籍有編制新副官的舊新訓單位,讓他能夠有一個專業人員在這個營,帶著各連的副校長跟繼承幹部,能夠掌握到我們所有新兵相關的新訓掌握。發覺有異樣的,他會跟新副官講,希望有必要會再做轉介,還有會跟他的家屬來做聯繫,一定會親自跟他聯繫,了解他的家庭背景,以及做一個管教的互助。"},{"start":8808.797,"end":8821.493,"text":"是,我想為了這個就是我們預防新兵他入伍的不適應嘛所以在這邊就是希望我們這個國防部對這些入伍新兵的心理輔導要設一個輔導的一個"},{"start":8826.018,"end":8849.816,"text":"的機構或相關關懷機制做建制。另外,對於今年2月22日國防部法律事務司呈表示,在義務恢復一年後,內部有討論恢復軍事審判的可能性。另外,立法院法治局在今年1月底也提出重大軍法案件妥肅增審相關問題延期報告。"},{"start":8852.798,"end":8871.07,"text":"指出,根據國防部的統計,近年來軍法案件每年平均有467件,因而也造成訴訟期間的冗長。因此,建議若有速審速決的必要,可嚴以改依《軍事審判法》來追溯處罰。"},{"start":8873.598,"end":8897.114,"text":"那我想請問這個部長對於這個國防部是否要恢復軍事審判以及是否針對特定的案件一如軍人的酒駕還有剛才講的逃兵吸毒泄漏機密或者抗命犯上等恢復為軍事審判的機制目前我們內部的討論是大概是怎樣的一個情況"},{"start":8897.694,"end":8908.337,"text":"國防委員報告,只要對我們國軍的戰略性本務推動有利的其他附加的方法,我們都樂見。回復軍事審判法的方向是要往回復軍事審判法的方向來做嗎?"},{"start":8920.141,"end":8921.543,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":8935.759,"end":8955.912,"text":"這個功能他是像現在我們今天提出來的軍人權益事件處理法他就有在行政案件行政類的案件將來可能會有功能如果法順利通過的話那至於過去軍事審判處理的是刑事案件那是不是要回復到過去軍事法院還要處理刑事案件確實還是有一些學者專家都有不同的看法"},{"start":8956.152,"end":8956.972,"text":"處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等"},{"start":8981.627,"end":9002.323,"text":"我想過去我們對於軍事審判大家被都在質疑的問題就是報案軍事審判的獨立性、公正性與程序的正當性那對於過去這些被質疑的點那國防部我想你們要去研擬說是否恢復軍事審判時要去做相關這些方向的一個討論"},{"start":9004.991,"end":9032.939,"text":"來改變過去外界對你們所提出的批評。」所以我是還是希望說你們往這個方向來討論恢復軍事審判我想這個方向還是對我們現在的普通法院因為案件量這麼多我想這個恢復軍事審判應該是有它正面積極的意義的謝謝林思敏委員我們論點表達完整請回座謝謝接下來進行詢答的委員是洪森翰委員"},{"start":9048.055,"end":9048.976,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":9059.744,"end":9066.45,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":9087.649,"end":9091.572,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":9114.912,"end":9133.668,"text":"我剛才聽到部長其實也坦承說目前其實在軍中輔導的人力其實不足夠我剛才如果沒聽錯的話部長是這樣說的其實也不足但是現在的問題是那到底不足是多不足那想先問部長部長你知不知道現在新府人員的邊線比現在是多少一個新府官負責多少的縣員"},{"start":9134.755,"end":9156.812,"text":"但我們要相信一比四百個人左右啦沒錯齁你看一下現在新府人目前編制大概是四百六那現有大概三百九編憲比大概八十五如果以16萬的軍力出估的話大概一位新府官大概負責四百元沒有錯可是問題來了就像剛剛部長說你也覺得不夠那到底多不夠"},{"start":9158.103,"end":9185.584,"text":"我們要達到的標準是什麼數字?目前一比四百,對不對?那如果不夠,那是要達到什麼數字?部長。是,我跟委員報告,我所謂不夠是怎麼樣?講說專業人員,當然越多越好。但話小,軍人有主任務,而且我們平常領導統一,為什麼這單位裡有這種建制?建制層層主管他就要負這個責,這也是領導統一的一環。是。所以這個來彌補,所以為什麼基本上我們就有三道關卡,"},{"start":9186.164,"end":9208.133,"text":"可以做這些心腹的工作。」不,我同意,絕對我們不是靠心腹資源來去處理所有的問題,我完全同意。可是就目前為止,相比於其他的單位,我剛才說到包括像在醫療機構,包括像在校園裡面,其實大概都有一個我們心腹官設要多少編制的一個目標。"},{"start":9209.717,"end":9222.773,"text":"現在我們確實看到大家越來越重視在軍中的這些事件裡面目前反而是在軍隊裡面是沒有的沒有一個目標所以我說夠還是我說不夠其實都沒有一個基準沒有一個標準現在是1比400但我們是不是要做到1比350"},{"start":9228.991,"end":9233.933,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":9257.982,"end":9277.383,"text":"預先來做準備,而不是現在有點像是有一天過一天,或者是反正有多的我就用,沒多的我也不預作準備,可是目前就不夠啊,副長。是,我跟委員報告,我是所以剛剛就講說,概略不夠或夠,我是針對專業人員。專業人員到底要有多少數據,這種可以大陸來一個課題研討。"},{"start":9278.584,"end":9280.685,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":9299.031,"end":9312.537,"text":"部長,我們現在在講的新婦人單指的是專業的嘛,他有這個方面專業的嘛,不是我今天要用各個不同的功能的我全部硬把它算進去,我覺得是在專業的部分,下面部長我想給你看下面一個數據喔,再往下,再往下,再往下,好"},{"start":9314.938,"end":9325.769,"text":"不想我們現在2024年的時候我們兵員假設我們16萬假設我現在就要維持這個該幸福人員1比4400的這配比的話其實我們預計2029年的時候我們的兵員會到26萬哦將近27萬哦如果我就算要維持1比400"},{"start":9335.031,"end":9352.274,"text":"照理來說我的新府人增加的數字而且我也假設就是剛才說的85%的邊線比的話我新府人會需要增加到650甚至編制人員要增加到765恐怕是比現在要多出300位其實這個數字是很高的"},{"start":9353.24,"end":9371.573,"text":"那部長,針對這個數字,我們接下來5年內要再增加300位喔,部長有沒有什麼想法?可以啊,要逐年進步嘛,現在兵員如果來的151多,從151當中也可以做一個選員啦。部長,你現在講沒有錯,但是我現在就是說,這個事情是我們要提前預備的,部長應該同意嘛,對不對?"},{"start":9373.314,"end":9392.61,"text":"因為我們就算從我們的政戰學院裡面的心理跟社工學系來看的話他們的這個系所畢業人數其實也不夠支撐這300個啊對不對所以我們勢必恐怕是要從沒錯要從義務域的域官或者是新府官裡面來去支撐可是我們又需要"},{"start":9393.832,"end":9416.847,"text":"是專業的,你也不能濫於充數。」所以我們現在可能要做的事情是什麼?我們現在變成是不是甚至要提前預備去到我們教育部下面有相關的心理或社會工作諮商相關的系所裡面,擴大來跟他們爭取,鼓勵他們來報考、預官、預試。你才有辦法因應你接下來5年要300位的這個需求啊?"},{"start":9417.99,"end":9423.051,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":9445.717,"end":9468.742,"text":"我們不預先準備是不行的我為什麼今天一定要把這量化的數據拿出來的原因是因為我們必須在量化的數據裡面才可以評估我們提前的準備跟作業的工作足不足夠我們的方向上能不能夠這不是我平常到大街上面去叫就可以叫來的或者是我自己去海巡我現在軍中的人員就可以多找一些來不是這是我們要先做準備的事情啊好不好部長所以我剛才說"},{"start":9469.662,"end":9486.718,"text":"第一,我們應該先建立接下來我們邊縣比的標準是什麼?應該仿照我們在大專校園裡面或者是醫療機構裡面我們可以專業的評估到底需要多少人力這個是專業評估這部分交給國防部可是要有一個標準我們才有目標"},{"start":9487.839,"end":9489.241,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":9501.553,"end":9525.252,"text":"所以我們可不可以先,第一個部長建立標準沒有問題嘛對不對?沒有問題,是第二個,我剛才說到5年後,我們要多300,至少300位啊那這部分提前準備的話,假設不是只是從政戰學院的話從外部的校園裡面,要去找到專業的系所裡面,去找到他們考預冠預試這個也要相關的工作計畫來去進行,擴大的招募或優先的招募,這部分部長有可以嗎?"},{"start":9525.812,"end":9526.873,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":9553.516,"end":9577.835,"text":"主席還有各位委員大家好。那麼有請國防部部長、邱部長。同時也請這個省市長、法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律司法律"},{"start":9581.687,"end":9584.87,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":9606.277,"end":9630.887,"text":"那麼對於看到今天國防部所提出來的陸海空軍懲罰法的修正案我在這裡我是感到非常的佩服因為這次的修法其實牽動的面向非常廣可以算是幾乎像是全文翻修當然也是希望能夠配合這個時代的進步然後來做一些新的立法"},{"start":9631.647,"end":9643.674,"text":"修正草案案件事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人修正草案案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人修正草案案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人修正草案案。"},{"start":9651.62,"end":9652.86,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":9665.945,"end":9682.935,"text":"但是呢,在你們這次的修法裡面呢,我看到了有一個比較嚴重的問題,就是你們在第三章調查程序的第二節裡面,你們卻定定了很多都是跟形式、呃,程序、形式偵查有關的,呃,呃,形式調查有關的相關規定,"},{"start":9686.937,"end":9695.399,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。六、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。七、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。八、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。"},{"start":9714.622,"end":9740.323,"text":"去定定刑事偵查還有刑事調查程序。是,謝謝委員,我跟委員報告我們過去在實踐上面102年之前軍法還在,早期的時候陸海空軍懲罰法從最早民國19年當時那個立法體力當時就是如果一個官兵的犯忌的行為他是很嚴重的話就是送軍法就會進入到所謂的刑事訴訟的那個軍事審判的這些相關的程序"},{"start":9746.647,"end":9770.503,"text":"尤其106年之後,軍法也已經都移到普通的司法機關去,那部隊畢竟跟外面的社會是跟公務機關都不太一樣,跟學校公務機關都不太一樣,它比較獨立。那在部隊裡面發生了任何的這些違紀的相關的這些違紀的行為的時候,常常會有外界,不論是民意機關,不論是委員也好,都會希望了解說,你部隊到底知不知道發生了什麼事情?"},{"start":9770.623,"end":9771.504,"text":"國防法務官、軍法官、檢察官作相關偵查程序"},{"start":9789.083,"end":9809.194,"text":"可是事實上我還是認為這樣的法體律的規範其實是有很大的疑慮的似乎是不適合定在陸海空軍懲罰法要不然你就把它定在軍審判法或者是刑事訴訟法裡面的相關規定可能都還比較適合所以你們現在定在這邊感覺上是非常突兀而且不合體律的修法"},{"start":9812.355,"end":9813.336,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":9829.143,"end":9829.503,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":9844.38,"end":9865.388,"text":"所以你們是真的沒有需求還是說是因為這個上面的意旨然後不讓你們提?我們就是跟考試院研討了之後這兩年我們用國防法務官考試的方式來取代去年已經開始考這個考試可是您國防法務官他的職權跟軍法官的職權其實落差很大他不能取代軍法官而且在戰時的時候現在其實台灣就已經說是這個全世界最危險的國家隨時都可能會發生戰爭萬一在發生戰爭的時候我們的軍法官從何而來?"},{"start":9874.392,"end":9877.414,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":9899.77,"end":9902.731,"text":"我認為說其實國防部這邊其實要更有尬詞一些就是我們就需要軍法人員我們就需要軍法官這是維持軍紀維持紀律這個非常重要的一個人力資源你這個我們講養兵千日用在一時不能講說現在軍事審判法因為這個在平時沒有適用軍事審判法的必要所以我們就不培養軍法官我覺得這個"},{"start":9924.555,"end":9951.801,"text":"邏輯是錯誤的。」是我跟委員報告就考試當初我們在談的時候就說軍法官在軍事審判法裡面有定義他就是院長、檢察長、責任檢察官、庭長然後軍事檢察官、軍事審判官那如果平時沒有軍事審判現在目前平時沒有如果平時沒有軍事審判當時他們認為說那你做這個考試考完了之後沒有辦法派出可能會有落差是我想這邊還是要跟國防部再講這個在依照軍事審判法裡面的規定"},{"start":9953.001,"end":9982.056,"text":"主動權事由國防部這裡提出,考試院只是配合辦理。」你們不要變成是考試院來主導、來領導、來決定軍法官的考試。這是完全違背法理的。也希望這個軍法司這邊能夠有更積極的作為。好,謝謝。好,謝謝歐小林委員。謝謝委員。好,司長跟部長請回。接下來進行詢答委員是陳冠廷委員。陳冠廷委員詢答結束後休息5分鐘。是喔,OK啦。好。"},{"start":9992.307,"end":9992.987,"text":"你好,我們請部長來,部長請崇煒好"},{"start":10005.114,"end":10024.742,"text":"部長好,那我想近期美國對台灣的這個軍公案有些延宕,一方面是疫情,一方面是俄烏戰爭,還有可能是中東戰爭的影響。那美國國會議員有建議讓台灣自行來建造美國設計的武器系統,來去解決目前遇到的這種延宕的狀況。"},{"start":10025.845,"end":10026.205,"text":"國防部有注意到這些新聞嗎?"},{"start":10037.516,"end":10057.046,"text":"國防部這個是主要工作之一啊,所以一定會注意的。是,那我想我們現在美國累計目前為止軍售項目大概還有,沒有交付的還有190億美元的這些軍售項目,那這都是我們迫切所需要的武器,那我們都希望能夠儘早來斬獲。我想請教一下,在這邊"},{"start":10058.126,"end":10082.562,"text":"文章裡面有提到,Politico上面的文章裡面有提到說我們面臨到的挑戰就是說在台生產是一回事,但是有洩密的風險,這個部分大家有沒有檢討說什麼樣的方向去克服?我今天講的一個洩密是大家都顧慮的,但我們要怎麼樣來防止洩密案件這也是平常我們教育訓練工作之一,不光教育訓練而且還去督管"},{"start":10083.542,"end":10086.146,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":10102.726,"end":10105.227,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":10121.192,"end":10142.502,"text":"那目前溝通的狀況跟可能性為何?的確這個工作不但在溝通,我們現在有很多國內有產製的能力,但有些裡面比較機敏的設置不見得有,要透過這個管道,透過管道會有顧慮,會有泄密的問題。所以我們這個一開始沒有來克服,但是這個工作推動沒有停止過。"},{"start":10143.516,"end":10143.956,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":10164.574,"end":10166.076,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":10184.676,"end":10195.705,"text":"負責陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。五、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。六、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。七、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。八、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10212.879,"end":10233.162,"text":"僱用的一些非法的一些相關的勞工。」我想請教一下,我們檢討過去國防部營區的這些承包的有沒有施工人員清澈?那有的話是認車還是認人?還是認章不認人?我跟委員報告,叫施工單位他有了這個工程外包,但外包不丟給施工單位我們就不管了。"},{"start":10233.843,"end":10240.266,"text":"條文修正草案案。五、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。六、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":10255.973,"end":10262.678,"text":"我沒有叫你介入啊,我沒有邀請國防部來介入這些個案。我沒有說能耐,但我們在法規平常定了,該由勞務單位他們去界定,如果預約了就就接受法罰則。"},{"start":10273.803,"end":10296.177,"text":"好,了解了解,如果是這樣的說法,那就這樣做,反正就是有,我們都有法律嘛,那我們就是誰違法我們再法嘛。不是這樣的,委員會聽名單安排啦,很多例證嘛,你只要有涉到違法事件以後,軍法該要出面一樣出面啦,我們要有抗告,但他最後責任,我們一定會找一個老人。"},{"start":10297.739,"end":10311.993,"text":"在軍方在查明這個進入營區的單位的時候,他們是認什麼?認他們的這個,他們有一個clearance嗎?有一個這個章嗎?還是他們的這個人員的這個管制是怎麼樣的做法?"},{"start":10313.254,"end":10339.425,"text":"有識別證嗎?那我們識別證要提供的話是不是要先做查核?那當然要查核了那查核的話這一次就是就是很不幸剛好有發生這樣的事情委員提這案子我知道他沒有在營區裡面喔他隔開的喔他出入口啊等等跟這營區並沒有進去喔所以沒有進去營區所以這件事情是沒有進入營區所以沒有相關的這個密等就已經那都成功的去堵住了嗎?就沒有這件事情"},{"start":10340.205,"end":10364.753,"text":"沒有直接影響到安全的危害。」好,謝謝。那最後關於這個美國通過對台安全的法案,那其中有19億美元是用於補充台灣的軍事物資,還有21美元的軍事融資。我想請教部長,我們未來的規劃大概是用什麼樣的方向,這些部分?直接是在哪個地方?大概規劃的方向?跟委員報告,這個部分"},{"start":10366.964,"end":10391.725,"text":"參議院的部分已經在今天早上9點40分也已經通過了這是最新的狀況跟委員做個報告那19億的部分是指定給美國國防部來做使用那它在法規裡面所預定的範圍是台灣及區域的夥伴國家有包括回補美國國防部原台的裝備以及對台的軍事服務軍事教育訓練這跟剛剛那個昭偉這邊所詢問的內容是類似的"},{"start":10396.63,"end":10413.121,"text":"最後一個問題,共軍進入台海周邊的警示,現在我們國防部有說不斷精進調整工部的方式,現在是避免敵人用縫隙對我國任之作戰,所以取消侵擾共機的進行,想請教一下為什麼部長我們要做這樣子的調整?"},{"start":10414.342,"end":10434.679,"text":"請摘要回答我調整好像越來越清楚嘛就是說不在那個好像把它弄了一點點越界越到哪裡我就列出來啊我不知道哪個差別假如你就左右過去的話是沒有過去的話會公佈畸形那現在是就基本上就是沒有做這樣的做法就是取消公佈青老共濟的畸形簡化相關的資訊"},{"start":10435.64,"end":10452.626,"text":"那我們來看一下日本的方面的話他們會有一個不管是摘要把這些無人機的機型還有海軍的這些或者是中國來進入他們的這個警示範圍的部分都會把它標示出來我想請教一下為什麼我們過去會把中共的機型相關的標示出來現在沒有是擔心哪一個部分"},{"start":10453.567,"end":10463.891,"text":"國防、司法及法制委員會第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1會期外交及國防、"},{"start":10483.717,"end":10486.958,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":10502.404,"end":10503.446,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":10843.834,"end":10851.98,"text":"好,我們恢復開會。接下來進行巡討委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。接下來巡討委員吳思堯委員。謝謝主席,有請部長。來,邱部長請。那另外可能政治作戰局、政治作戰局的張副局長要陪同。政治作戰局。對。"},{"start":10868.431,"end":10885.037,"text":"我之前針對這個主題是跟這個玉玲局長討論比較多我長期在教育文化委員會部長各位國防部的同仁那我想對於身心靈的關懷從教育部門尤其是高教端"},{"start":10885.757,"end":10898.601,"text":"我願意來分享我們在改進的經驗當然軍中的管理不同但是我想心服是一個專業我希望大家能夠藉由私咬的分享能夠給予國防部門"},{"start":10901.042,"end":10911.188,"text":"在針對心腹機制是不是層層失靈的部分,我們能夠給彼此更多的啟發。畢竟,國軍一定要身心靈健康,國軍強,國家才會強。」"},{"start":10917.731,"end":10944.576,"text":"我把我長期追蹤的教育部門教育部門從國教到高教就5年來學生的自殺死亡率成長1.66倍而人數攀升很關鍵的一件事情也就是我要告訴國防部的同仁們是我們的心腹機制有沒有接住這樣需要協助的珍貴生命"},{"start":10945.436,"end":10960.879,"text":"以教育部門來講,自殺五年來有477位年輕的生命離開了,但是各級學校跟國軍一樣有三級的輔導機制,可是以大學端來講,2021年的統計,65.5%的自殺身亡的年輕生命是學校漏接的。"},{"start":10972.881,"end":10981.149,"text":"從來沒有去向新府機制來提出救助的訊號,連SOS發出的機會都沒有。」這是大學。"},{"start":10983.538,"end":11006.087,"text":"國軍呢我非常認真的去找了我們的資料也謝謝你們的提供這幾年來五年來國軍的自殺通報包括以稅跟未稅總共有158人自殺通報我們接住了多少人只接住了11人進入福島只有11人換言之高達93.1%"},{"start":11009.568,"end":11030.397,"text":"自殺通報的人我們的心腹機制接不住。」那以非常難過的自殺死亡的人數這5年來有99位珍貴的士官兵的生命進入福島的更只有5個人所以漏接了94.9%將近95%這就是我們的國軍三級的心腹機制就是失靈下一頁"},{"start":11040.407,"end":11068.24,"text":"精準診斷才能有效防範。」有健康的國軍才有健康的台灣。但是你們所提供的自殺的原因的統計,非常的粗略。只有告訴我們,原因四成是經濟因素,兩成五是感情因素。但是如果以專業的分析,你必須去進入他是志願役,他是義務役,他的年齡層分布。"},{"start":11069.687,"end":11086.738,"text":"沒有做,這個馬上請你們作戰局要去做。」唯有有效的分析才能夠來防範,尤其年齡層是重要的,包括他入伍服役多久,可能會發生需要求助的狀況,都需要專業的分析,我想部長同意嘛,對不對?這就是三級防處的機制。"},{"start":11091.101,"end":11117.119,"text":"第一期初級的發掘預防,第二級的專業輔導,第三級的醫療處遇,真的層層失靈,才會有漏接了95%的往生的士官兵的生命。我要告訴大家,我剛也聽了部長的回覆,你們說我們每一層都有督導,心腹是專業。我請求部長,我請求局長,能夠把這句話聽進去。"},{"start":11119.099,"end":11136.193,"text":"心腹式專業,他絕對需要專業的有效介入,否則那是無效的武器。」下一頁。我跟您報告,目前我們的基層單位沒有心腹人力,全部都仰賴輔導長。"},{"start":11138.206,"end":11146.329,"text":"二級的新府中心編制人員451位實際人員只有382位具有專業證照人數只有60個三級編制人員14個實際人員13個具體取得證照的是9位統計來講從基層單位二級、三級整個國軍的新府人員取得證照的比例我跟部長報告只有69位"},{"start":11166.676,"end":11190.423,"text":"專業的心腹證照的比例在整個國軍國軍要服務16萬大軍比例只有17.5這是一個非常嚴肅的課題我再次說心腹是專業不要告訴我輔導長可以take care他的關懷可能是錯誤的關懷他想要關懷反而是給了壓力下一頁"},{"start":11193.086,"end":11214.742,"text":"再跟您報告,我調閱出來的資料,剛剛說的國軍具有心腹證照的專業的有69位,其實另外還有86位他畢業於心理師相關的學系或者是社工相關的學系,有86位,可是他的工作本務不是心腹,非常可惜。"},{"start":11215.442,"end":11222.585,"text":"所以兩條路,第一個,有新府證照的人只有69位,他真的做新府工作,人力要補強,專業要人盡其才。但是現役的你還不用去外面求助,心去攬財,有86位現在就在軍中。"},{"start":11233.65,"end":11245.708,"text":"但是他不做心腹的工作,非常的可惜,可以優先透過調派人力的方式,讓這86位具備心理師、社工師相關證照的人員來"},{"start":11247.824,"end":11268.193,"text":"補強新府的戰力。」這做得到吧,部長?這可以做到,我們立刻去處理。好,下一頁。部長,剛剛洪森翰委員他用的數字是1比400,就是我這個表格的最左邊。服務士官兵1比405,是以395位你們編的二級、三級的新府人力的那個工作,可是他不是專業人力。"},{"start":11269.534,"end":11278.742,"text":"如果以新府的專業人力就是整個國軍只有69個而且他真的就是做新府的工作比起16萬大軍的話他的比例是1比2318這個數字才是我們要面對的真相是1比2318我後面會快轉我快速分享我在教育部門推動的經驗謝謝主席多給我一點點時間下一頁"},{"start":11296.823,"end":11325.953,"text":"教育部原本是1比1200,我說是高教。五、思瑤不斷的質詢要求現在要修學生輔導法,還沒修法前先用預算補助的方式,已經要求各大學要做到1比900。這是專業的幸福人力,1比900,就是大學這樣做。現在已經各校還沒有修法用預算撥補的方式去做了,所以想做是做得到的。下一頁。"},{"start":11326.909,"end":11344.995,"text":"好,我剛說了監察院已經做出了調查了輔導長他同時身兼軍紀保防的工作他是管理者他同時又要做心理輔導的工作這是一個矛盾跟混亂的角色他想要輔導他想要關懷結果是給錯了壓力讓輔導長來作為基層的士官兵的"},{"start":11354.269,"end":11379.168,"text":"行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬"},{"start":11380.151,"end":11398.341,"text":"可以來善用這些人在他的工作分配的時候來協助輔導長、協助二級、三級的人員。」下一頁。你們開缺在小選的機制裡頭,都需要什麼駕駛啦、資訊啦、積電人才,開一個新府人才吧,這做得到吧,是不是?下一頁。"},{"start":11399.417,"end":11423.466,"text":"好,自己內部沒有辦法做,我們去轉介外部,我們去跟外部的輔導機構來合作,確實這幾年來向外部來合作,成長5.2倍,轉介數增加1.83倍,輔導人次增加3.29倍,預算不夠,沒有跟上來,預算只有從100萬增加到170萬。好,時間要到了。好,那我最後一件事情要到了,再來。"},{"start":11430.527,"end":11448.474,"text":"這個事情,大學現在開始有心理健康假。從吳思瑤2022年質詢的時候,只有兩校,現在有43校。教育部跟上來,心理健康假、身心調適假向下延伸,現在高中有42個學校試辦,今年9月要全面試辦。下一頁。"},{"start":11450.575,"end":11464.043,"text":"我也去向人事總處提出質詢,學生有心理健康假,公務人員也正在研議全台灣的公務人員有心理健康假,不是為了放假而放假,是透過心理健康假可以讓我們的輔導機制去追蹤誰請了這個假,他需要什麼輔導。"},{"start":11469.302,"end":11498.359,"text":"軍中的管理是不同的,我同意,可是我分享了教育部門的經驗,其他公務體系的經驗,我希望可以擾動大家的思維。」我今天帶來的就是新府需要專業。部長、副局長,我給您三個月的時間,我們再進一步來做探討,好嗎?好,謝謝吳思堯委員,相關資料請。好,謝謝主席,謝謝。部長跟政政局這邊,敬嚴你。好,謝謝。請回。好,接下來進行詢答的委員是林益君委員。"},{"start":11507.446,"end":11525.434,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議徐巧芯等20人擬具國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":11526.738,"end":11535.9,"text":"上次本席有質詢有關新式國造抗彈板的問題本席還是呼籲一下國防部請務必要確保能抵擋共軍5.8口徑子彈的話至少還是要做到NIZ標準的RF2的等級的防護才夠但如果國防部認為"},{"start":11545.743,"end":11547.504,"text":"依沙坪標準抗彈板太重會造成國軍士兵的負擔,應該用更科學的方式來加強官兵體能,這才是正本清源的方式。」"},{"start":11575.503,"end":11582.425,"text":"草案案例如美國陸軍H2F的計劃就是把運動生理還有營養學還有運動心理還有精神和睡眠的專業知識普及到全軍的110個營級的單位甚至會讓每個營區的健身房都配置專業的健身教練還有物理治療師還有營養師那請問部長目前我們每個營區都是有設置健身房嗎?"},{"start":11605.312,"end":11607.633,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":11626.685,"end":11646.963,"text":"譬如說跑步機,如果操場可以跑,那你在跑步機上跑,當然會有所差異,天候不好當然健身房是有用的,但可能沒有辦法讓每個營區通通有健身房。好的,那據我也大約知道,可能也是像部長說的,可能佔地不足還是有一些使用上的成本考量啦。"},{"start":11647.603,"end":11661.051,"text":"但是何事建議部長說其實不適合設置健身房還是器材不足的營區是不是可以跟周邊民間的健身業者合作請健身房的健身教練協助官兵來特定的機群還有體能的訓練"},{"start":11664.4,"end":11670.643,"text":"所以這也是思考方向之一嘛,所以我們也可以試看看。好,然後雖然國軍有部分其實大家都有意識到運動科學的重要性,例如體測現在也是都用捲腹來取代上到腰部的仰臥起坐嘛,但總體上面還是在推廣的階段還沒有到非常的普及。"},{"start":11684.029,"end":11703.225,"text":"所以這邊北溪想要請部長加速普及性,在運動科學方面還有以科學的方法練兵,其實可以讓整個數值有系統性的成長,那OK嗎?可以嗎?這應該要做的,都對他健康又有利,體能也可以提升,這種當樂見。"},{"start":11706.827,"end":11721.994,"text":"去年抗彈板的問題其實報出來就是有因為一個美國網紅對抗彈板的進行野地的測試所以那前幾天有一個網紅又對國軍的抗彈頭盔進行了測試那請問部長國防部有對這件事情有掌握嗎?"},{"start":11725.751,"end":11750.845,"text":"委員好感謝委員的一個指導我們分別在4月3號跟15號有跟委員辦公室來說明我們的頭盔包含抗彈板都是在105年依照軍種的作戰需求跟敵情的威脅確實是用NIA的一個標準那去年在我們王定宇王昭偉的指導之下我們全部我們新一代的抗彈板採取美軍的一剎皮的"},{"start":11751.525,"end":11768.712,"text":"跟委員剛剛指導的凹陷子確實我們在100我們在105年的時候NIDA是沒有做凹陷那我們這個為了沒有做凹陷我們在112年也幫我們的頭盔送到國防大學的理工學院的彈道實驗室去打"},{"start":11769.272,"end":11788.144,"text":"打的結果都是合乎現在美軍最新的ACH,那去年也指導了,我們王昭偉也指導了,我們偶後我們新一代的抗彈板跟頭盔跟委員給我們指導的,我們都是用最新的,新一代抗彈板是用VSAP的,頭盔是用ACS的,我們非常感謝委員的指導,以上報告。"},{"start":11788.604,"end":11799.772,"text":"好,那因為之前我有詢問過軍備局嘛,裡面有說有送國防理工學院測試凹陷值,但數據看起來是完全符合美軍ACH的防護標準,但是這個防護這個ACH凹陷值的規範,這個有公佈測試的結果嗎?"},{"start":11808.462,"end":11822.436,"text":"跟委員報告,我們就是要取得認證,我們現在在申請TAP,因為要TAP認證完之後,我們就是一個標準。TAP認證完之後,我們就會將TAP認證完跟我們測試完就會公告了。"},{"start":11824.096,"end":11841.62,"text":"所以其實這個很多台灣的民眾和官士兵其實對於抗彈頭盔其實還是抱有不少的疑慮所以其實現在也是請問部長其實還有如果召委同意的話能不能安排參訪我們外交國防委員會其實可以去兵士場看軍備局按照測試標準打一次測試的頭盔從各單位隨機挑選"},{"start":11848.089,"end":11851.572,"text":"實驗室測試結果,如果還是沒有辦法確保民眾對抗彈頭盔的信任的話,其實那國防部也可以做一個野地測試啊,安排在室內靶場讓幾個當過兵的小...你不要叫我穿著當靶就好,其他我都沒問題"},{"start":11868.344,"end":11883.14,"text":"不會不會像王定宇召委啦還是陳永康委員啊其實稍微練習一下都是非常的可以恢復以前熟悉的嘛吼那如果也能成功擋下子彈或者破片的話其實表示無論是實驗室的數據還是實際使用上是完全沒有問題的那要質疑的聲音肯定大家都啞口無言了嘛這樣這個辦法"},{"start":11891.488,"end":11902.851,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":11923.359,"end":11935.193,"text":"取得公信力的方法之一,我們也朝這方去做,去年的確有做過。好,謝謝林委員。來,部長,各位請回,謝謝。好,接下來進行尋找委員是鄭天才委員,時間4分鐘。"},{"start":11953.018,"end":11958.362,"text":"事件處理法草案。五、審查陸海空軍懲罰法及軍人權益事件處理法草案。"},{"start":11984.775,"end":12010.928,"text":"這個陸海空軍懲罰法這個從過去是承襲這個民國19年當時的體力這個確實是要大修特修但是我今天看了這個今天你們花了很長的時間開了會議然後送到立法院的條文我這個再談一下"},{"start":12014.579,"end":12035.209,"text":"這裏面特別提到軍人應受懲罰行為7分情務上與情務外,這是正確的方向,應該要這樣做。我們看這個,就以這兩條,就第15條,現行條文第15條跟現在行政院版送來的第6條,"},{"start":12037.575,"end":12064.951,"text":"這個原來的第15條,現行條文,現役軍人有下列情形、下列為私行為之一者,應受懲罰。這有好幾款的部分。這裡面現在送來的第6條的修正版。軍人非執行勤務而有下列行為之一者,為勤務外違紀行為,人應受懲罰。列了這個7款。"},{"start":12068.004,"end":12094.2,"text":"請問一下這個人因受懲罰違反這個期款要如何懲罰?茂偉,我是法律司司長,跟委員報告,這就是懲罰的事由。第6條規範的是勤務外,譬如說他放假在外面,他如果故意觸犯刑事法律,如果他放假在外面去吸毒,如果去酒駕,如果去實施性騷擾等等,"},{"start":12095.04,"end":12110.182,"text":"都可以當作懲罰了室友。」也就是說我們過去有就是現行條1到第15條它列了很多的款次我們也有去查考了一些資料從民國三年的什麼海軍艦艇規則陸軍的等等規則有最多到六、七十款的"},{"start":12110.502,"end":12111.582,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":12129.528,"end":12153.082,"text":"在勤務內的,你就用勤務內的方式來處罰。如果是勤務外的,你不是執勤,你放假回家,你休假,但是你不可以去觸犯我們國家的法律,你不可以在營外吸毒,不可以酒駕,不可以性騷擾,等等。如何懲罰?就是按著裡面的相關的規定,查完了之後由權責長官來做懲罰。輕的直接就懲罰,重的會聽一聽那個懲罰諮詢會的意見。這個好。是,權責長官來做處罰。次長。"},{"start":12158.556,"end":12177.389,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":12189.269,"end":12210.801,"text":"授權的規定,沒有授權你定在一些行政規則裡面或是一些要點注意事項裡面目前的做法還是跟過去一樣尤其是涉及到撤職涉及到撤職是一個很嚴重的"},{"start":12211.71,"end":12232.877,"text":"所以不應該在定一些相關的這些行政規則裡面來去決定。甚至由這個會議,你們叫什麼?審議會?諮詢會來去決定。所以這個部分還要再精進,尤其是涉及到撤職。是,我了解你的意思。"},{"start":12235.018,"end":12237.92,"text":"處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":12257.114,"end":12283.945,"text":"還是有涉及到工作潛能。」所以這個部分請這個次長還有法律事務司還是要再怎麼樣再把這個《陸海空軍懲罰法》未來還是要再繼續的修正,好不好?下去我們會繼續努力。謝謝,謝謝鄭天才委員。我們後面會開公聽會,可以邀請你來參與提供寶貴意見。好,謝謝。好,那個司長跟兩位司長請回,次長請回。"},{"start":12284.825,"end":12303.04,"text":"接著進行巡檔委員、審發會委員、審發會委員、審發會委員不在。徐宇貞委員、徐宇貞委員、徐宇貞委員不在。萬美玲委員、萬美玲委員、萬美玲委員不在。鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員、鄭正前委員不在。接下來進行巡檔委員是吳宗憲委員。"},{"start":12313.696,"end":12316.96,"text":"我們請部長部長請部長你好我也好部長其實我多次公開有"},{"start":12329.775,"end":12352.058,"text":"不然受訪或什麼都有說部長也是我非常敬佩的一位部長至少在目前內閣中我覺得非常欣賞的是部長那上次在質詢的時候我有跟部長請教過就是有關國軍自殺人數的問題那昨天我想說還又有一件不幸的事情發生部長應該知道是哪一件吧是"},{"start":12354.135,"end":12374.28,"text":"我現在想請教因為上一次我在質詢的時候我有提到說因為近年來這個國軍自殺自傷的人數有在往上漲那在接下來因為我們因應一些國際局勢的問題或兩岸的問題那我們現在今年開始把"},{"start":12375.14,"end":12394.669,"text":"一物一的時間延長為一年。」那這個狀況可能有關治傷的部分可預期的可能也會增加那我想請教一下就是目前國防部到底有沒有依據監察院之前的一個建議希望引入外部專業輔導跟精神醫療資源"},{"start":12397.605,"end":12413.22,"text":"我跟委員報告,任何一個制裁案件,對單位、對家庭來講都是一個滿意看的事情。我們國軍很注意這一塊,但我目前能夠做到什麼樣?像一旦草案發生以後,我們從內部開始檢討,從外部檢討,然後也會從它的階級、單位、服務單位都做一個類比。"},{"start":12419.406,"end":12444.102,"text":"所以我們也概率得到幾個數據,但是不便在這邊就貿然這樣講出來,因為可能會造成誤解,軍中在推辭,但我跟委員報軍中絕對不推辭。第二,強化措施,剛剛很多委員也有指導,新府人員他不是隨便派一個人就可以做新府的,這我們也一步一步在改進,在強化,在教育訓練,讓新府人員願意投入我們軍中。"},{"start":12445.223,"end":12468.993,"text":"這我們一點點在強化,但是要一觸馬上看到什麼成就,那我想就也要經營今年累月的多方面管道來共同輔導,然後以便讓我們軍中這些戰力能夠維持下去。跟文多講一點,事實上我看,現在這個年齡層真的很低。所以這我當然,我不了解年輕人,我也不怪這年輕人什麼草莓族,我不會。"},{"start":12469.833,"end":12479.622,"text":"一定有原因,但是我們要很坦誠的去面對,而且去強化我們的防範措施,所以我一定要努力的。目前部裡面跟衛福部"},{"start":12485.687,"end":12512.068,"text":"或是相關單位有沒有進行一些研議,那現在有進度嗎?有的,我們現在除了三層管道以外,另外第三層到第二層就要準備了,就要找這些部外人員了。那我目前了解衛福部有很多這種巡撫人員,也剛剛有一個核定,就是大家簽訂一個在哪個區塊到哪個地方去接受巡撫的一個治療。我想這資源共用嘛,而且大家都很專業的話,"},{"start":12513.249,"end":12532.936,"text":"也像能夠從他們身上幫助我們國軍一點,把治傷防治工作給做好。最後我想說我提幾個,因為上一次在質詢的時候我有提到,有幾個我希望說部裡可以考量一下,就是九三軍人節可不可以跟內政部溝通,當天可不可以全國"},{"start":12534.296,"end":12537.52,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":12555.858,"end":12559.94,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":12580.891,"end":12593.627,"text":"我覺得精進義務役入伍的流程因為我們常有聽到外面有很多人講說他們在等待入伍的時間他時間非常的長那因為他這個時間很長他會耽誤到他的計畫因為他這個時間"},{"start":12596.05,"end":12597.812,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":12611.764,"end":12616.807,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":12639.801,"end":12640.821,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":12660.529,"end":12678.82,"text":"部隊的同時他們也是不停的精進他的技術。我想這對國家或對個人我覺得都是一個很好的事情。那我這個再麻煩部長。是,鮑偉您提的意見都是很具體的。事實上我們國際委員會在作為"},{"start":12679.781,"end":12680.622,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":12713.422,"end":12732.767,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具、「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等"},{"start":12737.808,"end":12756.946,"text":"相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆聯席會各委員並複製聯席會,那兼委員口中詢答時,若未及答覆或要求補充資料者,原則上已書面兩週內提供,若另有約定期限,依其所定。"},{"start":12758.018,"end":12787.111,"text":"今明兩天一次會,那今早上聯席會呢,各委員達成共識,這兩部法律的修法提案在進入實質審查前應舉行公聽會,傾聽法界、學界及社會各界的意見。所以今明兩天就不進行大體討論跟條文處理,後續我們會安排公聽會及審查的程序。今天會議到此結束,現在散會。"}]}},{"id":"15843","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15843","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3ea1c34ab709cdaffb0d8b52470c073da943be8d109af184be42808b6a663f6c12a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra 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557.611,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":2579.275,"end":2586.38,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":2601.243,"end":2603.385,"text":"這次國籍法的修法本席是針對無國籍兒童在入籍我國以及專業人才規劃修訂第4條及增訂第6條之一。以下本席分別提案說明根據移民署統計"},{"start":2622.465,"end":2632.232,"text":"96年1月到113年1月底移民署接收之非本國籍新生兒通報有16869人。經比對跟篩率產婦的資料其中生母為失聯移工或不實身份者有754人,可是本區認為黑數會比這個數字還要多。"},{"start":2642.819,"end":2648.825,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。五、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。六、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。"},{"start":2662.057,"end":2670.125,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":2681.837,"end":2688.3,"text":"原提案修正國籍法第4條,其監會人為法院裁定之社會福利主管機關者,得申請規劃我國國籍。"},{"start":2699.966,"end":2707.892,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":2726.025,"end":2730.146,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":2750.151,"end":2767.557,"text":"原提案增訂第6條之一,規定有特殊專業技能必經政府機關或民間企業聘任專職開放期只需連續在臺灣居留2年而且平均每年居住183日以上或居留繼續5年以上者,亦可申請規劃。"},{"start":2772.469,"end":2780.387,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。"},{"start":2787.871,"end":2811.09,"text":"本期針對國際法第4條及第7條提出修正法案主要是因為建議我國民法修正後已經將成年年齡調降到18歲而且自民國112年1月1日起實施為使國際法可以配合民法對於涉及外籍人士相關年齡規範也用年齡來表示時期能有一致性的規定所以特別提出相關的這個修法的提案"},{"start":2811.69,"end":2815.193,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":2833.166,"end":2833.767,"text":"臺灣最美的風景是冷靜。"},{"start":2848.166,"end":2854.27,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":2874.79,"end":2875.511,"text":"黃婕委員提案說明"},{"start":2889.313,"end":2892.756,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":2904.887,"end":2917.612,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管"},{"start":2934.198,"end":2943.96,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":2961.003,"end":2970.529,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":2996.934,"end":3011.659,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管"},{"start":3020.441,"end":3025.104,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":3036.75,"end":3042.054,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":3058.584,"end":3062.467,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":3088.507,"end":3092.911,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":3109.327,"end":3131.291,"text":"所以為了希望可以協助擴充我國體育運動代表隊的人才庫還有選才的可能性增加我國競技體育的競爭力所以我們提出了國籍法第6條之1的條文草案並且我們還原用了國家體育競技代表隊服務補充兵役辦法精神設定規劃球員列管期限以及撤銷規劃許可的但書以上敬請參考謝謝"},{"start":3138.699,"end":3151.23,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":3164.268,"end":3176.898,"text":"聯合國兒童權利公約第7條規定,兒童自出生起即應有取得姓名及國籍之權利。我國制定兒童權利公約施行法,業於2014年生效,明定該公約具有國內法律之效力。"},{"start":3177.558,"end":3198.551,"text":"隨著全球化浪潮、跨越國界移動的人口逐漸增加,個人的國籍問題亦趨於複雜化。我國為因應非本國籍無依而少之困境,歷經多次政策轉變。內政部2017年公告這函示尤其是重大突破,讓非本國籍而少在尋找生母為國之後,得以被認定為無國籍人,進行出養媒合。"},{"start":3200.192,"end":3217.079,"text":"進行收出養媒合及規劃為現行能透過該途徑取得國籍之兒少人為少數。為了落實兒童權利公約精神本席特意提出國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案。重點如下。第一,國籍法第二條第一項第三款規定"},{"start":3217.739,"end":3245.978,"text":"出生於中華民國領域內父母均無可考或均無國籍者屬於中華民國國籍,故本席主張出生於中華民國領域內其母為外國人,但有事實足任其刑方不明者視同無可考。一、在兒少身負不詳之前提正母攜循生母未果後,該兒少即適用前述規定取得有國國籍,除能縮短行政時程提升兒少收出養媒合率成功之外,"},{"start":3246.858,"end":3265.204,"text":"也降低兒少在等待過程中的身心影響。第二、考量部分國家之法律或政策不允許放棄原屬國國籍或虛擬一定年齡以上使得放棄原屬國籍故增訂單書,必須保障規劃人之未成年子女於過渡期之權益。以上說明,請您獲得各位委員的支持。謝謝。"},{"start":3273.359,"end":3279.224,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":3296.7,"end":3299.642,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":3325.499,"end":3331.68,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":3354.005,"end":3358.366,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":3380.831,"end":3385.673,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":3406.68,"end":3420.791,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":3436.767,"end":3445.773,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":3460.835,"end":3482.803,"text":"我也是有提案就國籍法的第4條來進行修正那希望能夠來協助目前非本國籍或是無國籍遭遺棄的兒少能夠來獲得他們生存保障的權利那因為我們台灣的國籍法是屬於是採屬人主義所以我們是看父母的國籍來決定孩子的國籍"},{"start":3483.343,"end":3488.785,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。五、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。"},{"start":3505.811,"end":3513.598,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":3533.115,"end":3537.539,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":3551.511,"end":3559.095,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":3576.923,"end":3585.246,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":3613.208,"end":3614.629,"text":"針對國籍法跟預算解凍一起報告。"},{"start":3622.737,"end":3651.184,"text":"各位委員各位先敬大家早我先針對國籍法的部分來做說明首先也對委員對內政業務的重視和指導表達有種感謝今天貴委員會審查國籍法部分條文修正草案共16案本部應要列席報告並備詢深感榮幸有關羅美玲委員、王美惠委員、吳佩儀委員、林益錦委員、陳玉珍委員、鄭天才委員、莊惠雄委員及鍾嘉斌委員等"},{"start":3651.824,"end":3673.71,"text":"部分提案內容與行政院版修正方向一致,竟表同意。至於其他提案,請將本部意見、二要說明如下,進行委員參考。第一,有關書曉慧委員提案,出生於我國領域內,其母為外國人,但有事實足證,足認其刑方不明者,視同無可考,而取得我國國籍。"},{"start":3674.97,"end":3697.913,"text":"為保障室內兒少權益,依據在台出生非本國籍兒少少年申請認定為無國籍人一覽表的流程規定,經認定為無國籍人可申請規劃取得國籍,即可獲得解決。至於王定義委員及林大化委員提案徵定無國籍人的定義,"},{"start":3699.154,"end":3712.749,"text":"經查本法的施行細則,系就無國籍人為名詞解釋,並沒有就無國籍人的權利加以限制,因無違反法律保留原則,所以也建請能夠保留斟酌。"},{"start":3714.15,"end":3739.161,"text":"第二、關於民眾黨提案未保障18歲以上未滿20歲人的規劃權益,我們將未婚未成年修正為未婚且未滿20歲。查18歲以上未滿20歲的人,依現行民法規定已具備完全行為能力,可主張自身的權利義務。如果我們對這些人仍得依附"},{"start":3739.981,"end":3748.207,"text":"父母養父母申請規劃,將與保障未成年人隨同規劃的立法意旨不符,建請能夠再與斟酌。"},{"start":3750.273,"end":3776.695,"text":"有關王美玲委員、陳培英委員提案高級專業人才之規劃許可得付撤銷條件的付款,即6年內曾具有大陸地區人民不適用高專規劃的規定,考量國籍為個人身份變動的重大事項,應確保其安定性。有醫學者的意見,不宜增訂付條件的付款。"},{"start":3777.435,"end":3801.012,"text":"至於提高高專人才6年內曾具大陸地區人民身份不得以高專規劃一截,取等如符合台灣地區及大陸地區人民關係條例可認定為外國人之要件,即可以外國人身份申請規劃。審查時易經國家安全局等機關嚴格把關,所以應該無需再針對4類人員的申請規劃另訂規範,也建請在與斟酌。"},{"start":3806.556,"end":3827.654,"text":"有關黃委員提案外國人或無國籍人具特殊領域專業人才經政府機關企業或聘任者合法拘留至至少兩年,亦得申請規劃,免提喪失原有國籍證明。由於本次修法放寬高級專業人才規劃年限已含括上述對象,建請再與斟酌。"},{"start":3829.415,"end":3848.323,"text":"五、網美會委員提案增訂有書勳於我國認定原則應備文件、處理程序等標準。查本部定有規劃國籍有書勳於我國者認定原則,實務運作並無摯愛。四、沒有必要再另訂規範,建請再與斟酌。"},{"start":3851.207,"end":3870.7,"text":"陳恒宇委員提案外國人之父母於本法89年2月9日修正施行時已滿20歲且其父母之母為我國國民如予取得國籍後直接代表我國參與國際賽事得經本人同意後申請規劃免提上司原國籍證明。"},{"start":3871.8,"end":3891.699,"text":"經查本法已明訂高級住宅人才申請規劃的要件跟流程,應該已無須再針對體育人士另訂規範,也建請再予斟酌。二、有關蘇巧慧委員提案配合《民法》成年年齡及男女最低結婚年齡修正為18歲,原刪除未婚的文字。"},{"start":3892.813,"end":3916.22,"text":"另因原屬國規定至無法放棄原國籍者應確保其權利義務。經查民法修正後已不會發生國人未滿18歲但已婚的情況。但是世界各國法律結婚年齡不同,仍存在外國人未滿18歲但已結婚的狀況,所以未婚的文字似乎還不宜現在就刪除。"},{"start":3916.86,"end":3943.172,"text":"另外規劃者自許可規劃其取得國人身份並享有相關權利,為部分法律規定以當事人設有戶籍為享有權利要件,因涉及各該法規規定,不宜以概由本法予以規範。建請在與斟酌。另外,宗嘉兵委員提案高專人才或疏訊規劃者之配偶及未成年子女得隨同規劃,且無需上司擁有國籍。"},{"start":3945.113,"end":3965.687,"text":"規劃經撤銷或廢止後其配偶子女之規劃亦隨同撤銷或廢止。考量四類規劃者之配偶及未成年子女並非我國所需之人才或為我國所要感謝之對象,如放寬取等申請規劃無需上司員國籍,將與立法目的不符。"},{"start":3966.929,"end":3984.14,"text":"此外,基於結婚與國籍分離原則,外國人於婚姻存續期間一方面改變國籍,均不當然改變另一方國籍。所以,關於其配偶及子女國籍方面,應給予當事人自主決定,適不宜增加該隨同撤銷規定,進行予以斟酌。"},{"start":3987.67,"end":4008.122,"text":"王定義委員提案第19條第一項規定文字應予以修正除違反第9條第一項規定應撤銷其規劃許可外以渡爭議案本條第一項系規範國籍變更案件的撤銷權行使期間及處置期間同時為除外形式之規定"},{"start":4014.225,"end":4033.77,"text":"該除外情勢即只為依本法第9條第1項規定依現提出上司原國籍證明遭撤銷規劃之情形,因無違物,見請再與遵著。以上報告見請委員指教。因為我在針對預算解凍的部分來做簡要的報告。"},{"start":4035.595,"end":4047.218,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":4060.462,"end":4075.587,"text":"行政院在112年12月5日也成立了《個人資料保護委員會籌備處》,對於新式身份證後續推動,將在進行政策、治安及法治等方面之跨部會意見整合。"},{"start":4077.199,"end":4093.581,"text":"另外,為了維持呼籲證系統24小時服務,本部持續辦理軟體維護、功能增修及架構精進及加強各自防護作業,並辦理呼籲證、地證資訊系統。這三大功有餘,支援租賃、"},{"start":4095.143,"end":4121.446,"text":"分辭加密傳輸備份資料機制授權等實施策略。另外,關於國土管理署第三目國土管理業務部分,說明如下。第一,原住民族土地使用管制規則的草案已納入福島部落既有居住用地的合法機制,並也召開演商會議。四、釐清原住民族傳統文化與土地使用特殊需求,"},{"start":4122.326,"end":4143.414,"text":"將加速法定原定作業。第二、為了減少安裝室外冷氣機不慎掉落意外,國土署已頒布了《空調家電安裝及維修空間規劃設計指導原則》。另外,《公共大廈管理條例》第10條也已經就建築物專有及共有部分的修繕管理維護明定全責。"},{"start":4144.754,"end":4168.646,"text":"三、為了讓公設負擔更加合理,國土署也已經針對虛憑改革的規劃研議納入未買停車位者免負擔車道面積,對免金融機額度有餘裕腐爛的項目訂定上限等方向處理。四、為利社會大眾了解國土變異點查報情形,國土利用監測整合資訊網以建置變異點查報進度,"},{"start":4173.974,"end":4182.887,"text":"並且公開而且每月定期更新並將持續督導地方政府加強查處以及適時徵修系統的功能。"},{"start":4184.202,"end":4207.61,"text":"五、為了加速推動維好建物辦理都市更新,國土署也持續檢討相關法令精進簡化流程和審議程序,延長稅均減免等實施期間等措施。六、為了訂定合理的社會住宅分級收費租金原則,已經邀請各界來研議社宅租金分級收費原則的草案。"},{"start":4208.63,"end":4227.834,"text":"後續也將在與地方政府針對各項問題討論確定後將儘速完成法制程序。第七、為了能夠更公平及多元保障國人居住權益也召開延伸社會住宅入住登記機制裁加簽制或輪候制的會議也針對相關會議召開社會住宅"},{"start":4232.11,"end":4245.201,"text":"移民管理大平台討論定定統一標準。八、三百億元中央擴大租金補貼專案截止今年3月抵止,民眾申請超過64萬戶,處理完成57萬餘戶,後續將令"},{"start":4252.507,"end":4273.858,"text":"成立專案辦公室來加速審查作業並提供諮詢專線以減少等候狀況。第九、為擴大淨零建築推動範圍、克正研擬新建建築物節約能源的設計標準及修正草案條文,也將邀集有關單位趕快延伸相關的作業程序來做因應。"},{"start":4274.918,"end":4294.965,"text":"第十,為了強化高空作業現場監督確認、主管機關聯合稽查、工地巡查機制等制度,我們已經修正了強化建築物施工管理作業原則,也在今年3月29日函送地方政府,也將後續督促地方政府納入自治法規。"},{"start":4296.294,"end":4309.896,"text":"第11關於臺北市文山區河灣區和青仁灣區社會住宅的新辦國家住居中心已多次出席市長與里長市政座談並拜會里長,持續溝通說明,已取得相當共識。"},{"start":4312.045,"end":4334.908,"text":"在行政法人國家住宅中心的業務成本費用的部分說明。一、國家住宅中心辦理為了重建,截至今年3月底通過10案,預算執行率已有提升,另於正式受理申請前已設立輔導機制,協助個案釐清議題並加速作業。二、截至今年3月底,"},{"start":4335.669,"end":4359.523,"text":"住宅中心侵犯社會住宅已達52796戶,也將滾動檢討經濟、設宅興建及營運管理機制,逐步建立全國一致的制度,並持續辦理與公會業者的教育訓練,提升包租代管的有效契約。以上是本部主管業務經大院審查,希望能夠予以支持本部已實施計畫,審慎督促各機關單位全力積極辦理。"},{"start":4363.925,"end":4373.012,"text":"前階預算凍結案,敬請貴委員會同意動之,必利各項業務推動。以上報告敬請各位委員、女士先生指教。謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝我們內政部。我們發進請次長的檢調報告。那其他單位的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報。"},{"start":4387.042,"end":4408.513,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管"},{"start":4416.783,"end":4427.287,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。五、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。六、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。"},{"start":4446.364,"end":4459.416,"text":"市長我們今天這個要處理國籍法的修正其實最主要的議題之一就是要能夠對所謂的黑戶寶寶非本國籍無一而少他的權益再做進一步的討論和修正"},{"start":4460.757,"end":4464.019,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":4490.837,"end":4493.881,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計4案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計5案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":4507.557,"end":4513.02,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。五、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。"},{"start":4532.825,"end":4550.068,"text":"生母認為是未尋後生母的話是由內政部的戶政司進行認定然後才進行到無國籍的認定之後經過社政單位安排收出養依收養人的國籍來申請規劃是這段嘛對不對是好那部長次長請問一下啦我們目前這種所謂的黑戶寶寶到今年的統計大約是3000多人依照你這個流程跑完的請問有多少人已經走到了規劃的部分"},{"start":4564.29,"end":4592.148,"text":"現在認定24位走到規劃有19位那你要不要再重複一次我剛剛說的話我們現在有這樣問題的黑戶寶寶有3000多位經過你精心設計的流程之後能夠被認定為無國籍的是24位再經過社政單位安排收出養規劃之後完成取得國籍的只有19位"},{"start":4594.342,"end":4618.122,"text":"跟各位報告,其實當然我們通報有3600多位。實際上已出境的已經有2080位了。其實其中有超過2000位已經出境。那所以也還有1000多位嘛。1500多位在台灣。1500多位嘛,還留在台灣的嘛。對對對。對不對?所以我們今天要解決這樣的問題,然後也設計了一套流程。可是這套流程確實看起來很不錯、很完美,但"},{"start":4618.542,"end":4621.304,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":4649.462,"end":4656.584,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":4674.628,"end":4679.111,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":4701.966,"end":4706.69,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":4724.685,"end":4727.226,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":4746.616,"end":4749.299,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":4764.013,"end":4768.816,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":4794.813,"end":4800.455,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":4817.799,"end":4829.265,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":4852.23,"end":4855.574,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":4861.343,"end":4867.647,"text":"我來延續蘇協會委員剛才說的國籍在這方面剛才我們有探討到清規的應變到可以入國籍到19歲的孩子在這方面有規定外國要娶的三個月如果娶不到"},{"start":4886.438,"end":4911.666,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計4案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計5案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":4913.666,"end":4923.092,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":4943.385,"end":4947.729,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":4963.003,"end":4969.846,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":4983.611,"end":4987.777,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":4998.652,"end":5007.356,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":5025.615,"end":5036.239,"text":"對於一個小孩來說,說實在,我們有很多不周全的地方。是,是,是,我們也很不敢啦。對啦,因為你如果想想,這麼多小孩,自己給自己的社會去評估之後,說實在,他是不是認真啊,不是認真啊。是。對不對,這要改進一下啦。好,這我們來點頭。我知道,我告訴你,剛才我告訴你,你要來開會的時候,你有先跟我說嗎?"},{"start":5055.043,"end":5057.166,"text":"二、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計4案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計4案。四、"},{"start":5072.854,"end":5086.099,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":5101.724,"end":5105.83,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":5114.482,"end":5123.767,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":5140.137,"end":5143.978,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":5170.1,"end":5175.764,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":5190.735,"end":5194.656,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":5211.701,"end":5217.645,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":5228.692,"end":5235.699,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":5253.796,"end":5262.082,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":5285.091,"end":5309.629,"text":"謝謝委員會委員的發言,那我們下一位請劉新平委員,謝謝。好,謝謝,現在我們林樂昌部長已經時間,現在已經來到內政委員會了。好,謝謝主席,既然部長都到了,那就部長吧,跟花枝一起,一起,好不好。"},{"start":5311.466,"end":5313.409,"text":"發誓在留步,先請部長跟次長。"},{"start":5323.823,"end":5324.203,"text":"今天因為有審查預算凍結案"},{"start":5346.923,"end":5349.584,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":5371.716,"end":5395.087,"text":"租屋族的權益來說其實造成很大的壓力大家擔心說這個電價上漲之後會不會有轉嫁的行為所以說這個問題其實也是老生常談也就是說很多人都要去談說在這個租屋族跟房東的不對等的關係之下這個電費收取的這個問題那麼3月18號的時候這曾經部長也在這個內政委員會來做答詢的時候其實也有說一個月要解決這個問題"},{"start":5396.708,"end":5425.932,"text":"今天是4月23號,所以是不是請部長來報告一下,現在這個問題解決了沒有?好,謝謝。我們在3月27號已經邀請相關機關團體召開第三次的一個座談會,並且把相關的一個規劃進行的一個方案來做一個討論跟確定。目前已經在進行預告,大概預告的時間是20天,預告完成之後,報行政院來做核定。"},{"start":5426.252,"end":5451.62,"text":"因為你這個報告裡面有寫嘛就是說理論上來講要處理解凍案你就要提書面報告那書面報告其實時間已經過一個月了那你們現在程序你講說合訂你這個住宅租賃定型化契約應記載及不得記載事項寫完了沒?是我們已經修完了我們已經修完了那現在正在進行預告它需要一個預告的程序好那你簡單在這個地方報告一下就是說它修訂的方向是什麼?"},{"start":5451.88,"end":5468.328,"text":"如何能夠確保租屋族的電費不會被人家超收的問題?我想這個部分大概分成兩點第一個是租屋電費的計收標準約定以用電度數計費者每度電價應不得超過該租賃標的電費單當期每度平均電價"},{"start":5475.471,"end":5490.237,"text":"公共設施電費未分攤並入註定標的電費內者,不得額外收取。非約定以用電度數計費者、出租人所收取之每期電費總金額,不得超過該註定標的電費單之每期電費總額。"},{"start":5497.28,"end":5503.605,"text":"租屋電費資訊提供,增訂房東應提供或授權房客查詢租賃期間租屋電費資訊的義務規定。"},{"start":5512.051,"end":5514.534,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":5528.573,"end":5556.409,"text":"我們這邊只要程序完成之後當然就會依這個相關新的規定來進行所以你現在講在公告期間內所以具體的一個上路的時間是幾月幾啊公告就是20天然後我們會報行政院核定核定完之後就可以公告完之後核定中還會有行政流程嗎我們現在預告預告完之後報行政院核定你現在預告期間結束是幾月幾啊行政院可能有一個審議的一個程序不是啦預告結束是幾月幾啊"},{"start":5557.85,"end":5564.352,"text":"二、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":5582.579,"end":5596.872,"text":"那第二個是今天要談一下這個租屋市場透明的問題所以我剛剛講花次去開會是有點可惜但沒關係既然部長來了那就由部長來做回答這個部長你同不同意就是說我們的租屋市場應該逐步朝向市場透明化的方向來處理"},{"start":5597.834,"end":5602.617,"text":"我們現在手上已經掌握的相關的資料其實已經超過了一半了那這一半都是透明可揭露的資訊"},{"start":5623.731,"end":5643.841,"text":"好現在我們現在還沒有像房屋實價登錄一樣變成全國性的大家都已經習慣有這樣子的一個機制那當然嘛這從無到有的過程中你總有先找出破口然後來逐步來處理所以本期的建議你在處理這個租屋市場透明的時候你要一次要求所有的房東立刻就範恐怕現實上會有困難這本期願意理解但是要有破口嘛"},{"start":5644.541,"end":5647.024,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":5661.581,"end":5661.881,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":5691.901,"end":5701.167,"text":"是不是應該做一些調整跟修正?是 這個我們正在研議修正當中研議修正當中我們這個在上個月已經有召開過相關的一個會議"},{"start":5702.27,"end":5729.68,"text":"其實這些願意加入包租代管的人其實就已經等於是配合政府政策了嘛其實大家講說你租屋要納管最困難的就是房東願不願意納稅這件事情那你加入了當然就有納稅也就是說他其實最難的這一關都已經過了他都配合你的政策了對不對那你做資訊的揭露去做租屋市場透明的平台其實是相對於要求他們繳稅更簡單的事情嘛那其實就不要為德不足嘛也沒有什麼好道理說我只做包租沒有做代管"},{"start":5730.18,"end":5739.245,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":5751.328,"end":5771.702,"text":"我是希望這個東西一樣加入,其實當初其實我甚至都認為是可以一步到位,那沒辦法,那時候還沒有當選立法委員,沒機會討論這件事了,對不對?那就希望現在趕快做啦,不只是包租代管,未來你要把租屋補貼納入,那當你的案量其實有一定的時候,我們應該要比照房屋購買買賣實價登錄的方式,你要開始有網路上可以揭露,人民有易達性可以做查詢的這樣一個機制嘛。"},{"start":5772.583,"end":5778.186,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":5803.032,"end":5811.455,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":5830.68,"end":5841.12,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":5842.475,"end":5847.436,"text":"花蓮兩棟大樓倒塌好險就是還沒有人傷亡因為都有很多房子因為結構收血還有紅單大家都在紅單黃單來去有警示單但是想要請問部長這些圍樓已經嚴重了而且就是危害到公共安全了有沒有要求拆除的有一個期程"},{"start":5871.52,"end":5880.024,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":5899.875,"end":5922.925,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、中央政府總預算"},{"start":5929.728,"end":5935.05,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":5945.629,"end":5950.514,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、"},{"start":5962.264,"end":5967.23,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":5978.164,"end":5984.107,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":6001.437,"end":6004.321,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":6017.42,"end":6021.801,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":6035.305,"end":6039.789,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":6062.248,"end":6068.579,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":6073.326,"end":6079.431,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":6096.988,"end":6099.032,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":6108.095,"end":6114.599,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":6133.212,"end":6140.02,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":6153.775,"end":6170.663,"text":"依承住人的薪水及負擔能力、訂定收費標準所違背的。請問部長有沒有考慮的是什麼,但是都沒有得到正面的回應?"},{"start":6171.903,"end":6172.244,"text":"臺北、新北、桃園"},{"start":6192.04,"end":6204.373,"text":"三個城市之下四的狀況也不一。其實像新北它是今年才開始但是實際上它還是採取一個非常嚴格的一個限制所以它實際上還是"},{"start":6207.135,"end":6210.856,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":6231.883,"end":6239.607,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":6258.078,"end":6261.802,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":6278.226,"end":6286.53,"text":"所以最後一題因為時間的關係想要請教部長大家今天都很注重的就是關於就是未成年規劃的部分因為民法的修正未成年的定義是從20歲下修到18歲導致原來很多人要申請規劃我們國籍的民眾"},{"start":6300.196,"end":6302.437,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":6328.043,"end":6334.5,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":6340.705,"end":6364.952,"text":"報告委員按照這個民法他把那個成年年齡都調降為18歲所以我們這個國籍法也一樣配合把它調降為18歲那因為調降為18歲之後這個外國人或者是本國人的話他18歲以上就有行為能力所以我們覺得他已經有行為能力了就不符合我們照顧這些未滿18歲未成年人來規劃國籍的事宜"},{"start":6368.379,"end":6381.642,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。"},{"start":6391.875,"end":6398.702,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":6416.039,"end":6423.503,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":6443.753,"end":6450.976,"text":"三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":6473.682,"end":6492.995,"text":"今天特別本席來這邊質詢針對過去一直以來很多媒體上的一些假新聞而且說民進黨黨中央的一些對不管是對本席的抹黑造謠跟很多不實的訊息本席希望今天來做一個澄清而且做一個嚴正的檢討先請問一下部長你認不認識檢報上這位仁兄"},{"start":6497.936,"end":6518.495,"text":"我想這個大家應該多少都認識,這是發言人吳征。好,謝謝,那我們簡單播一下影片。聲音幫我播一下。來,重新一次,沒關係,時間暫停一下,不好意思,我們沒有準備好。好,重新播一次。"},{"start":6522.661,"end":6532.907,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":6550.507,"end":6571.452,"text":"我先跟署長報告這個影片是民進黨在4月15號的黨中央辦的記者會他是在7點7分50秒到9分50秒我是完整的呈現只把這影片的速度加快一點請問署長這件事情你要不要現在鄭重來澄清你什麼時候到本席的辦公室我對於綜合會話段有沒有對你作施壓請你這個"},{"start":6572.912,"end":6574.394,"text":"我到目前都還沒有進過您的辦公室。"},{"start":6581.052,"end":6605.292,"text":"好那你是不是可以再跟大家澄清一下請問本席有沒有像民進黨發言人吳姓發言人講的有要求你到本席的辦公室來做綜合會謠段本席嘛還有署長嘛那地點本席辦公室針對事情做了會謠段有沒有對你施壓有沒有這件事情你再說明一次委員都還沒有找過我談過這件事"},{"start":6606.598,"end":6623.639,"text":"所以部長、署長這很明顯的今天謝謝我們署長的呈敬這很明顯的就是民進黨的假訊息長期的對我們國民黨的這個立委抹黑跟造謠所以請署長在這邊公開的來譴責這件事情這樣的事情可以允許發生嗎"},{"start":6625.476,"end":6654.823,"text":"跟委員報告因為這不是我的職權我只是要說明就沒有這您沒有來找過我談這件事情那本席是覺得非常特別啊難道是說好署長現在沒有要求你回答是不是你們平常就有在跟民進黨黨團民進黨中央做密切的聯絡不然這位發言人憑什麼說他知道署長的行程是不是有對你們施壓請問這樣能保持行政中立嗎你們是平常有沒有把你們內部的資訊署長的行程提供給民進黨中央請回答沒有"},{"start":6656.444,"end":6679.266,"text":"好險你說沒有,如果你有說有的話,那你去提供給國民黨的黨團一份。那我要請教,是不是你回去要調查一下,這樣的資料提供的不實,是不是內部應該來做檢討?這樣子來去擋地方的建設,難道是因為本席對中和的淤水下水道,從民國93年以後實施到現在都沒有完成,還有10萬的住戶沒有完成,還是因為"},{"start":6679.907,"end":6701.709,"text":"灰窯段從104年的建設案就擋到現在,連民進黨的家長餐委員也開過4次的協調,還有這邊資料都有。所以本席根本還來不及,現在在關心很多的建設案,根本還來不及來找你討論這些事情,結果被民進黨抹黑跟造謠。那請問一下署長,這邊要你回來防篤,來杜絕這樣的事情,請回答。跟委員報告,第一個,"},{"start":6702.43,"end":6730.663,"text":"其實我們也沒有擋過綜合任何的下水道的案子,這一切都照新北市政府的既定進度。市長我知道你沒有擋,可是要這樣子抹黑造反的方式,那不是片面的在黨綜合的地方建設嗎?市長給你兩個方式來做,第一個,如果當行政院會被抹黑的時候,是不是應該發新聞稿來質詢?或是甚至啊,之前在選舉期間啊,其實行政部門也可以提告啊,請問你要選擇哪一種方式來澄清?"},{"start":6731.758,"end":6748.989,"text":"跟委員報告因為不是我們自己不是我們自己行政院被抹黑這件事情所以我們當時其實我到今天也才知道有這一段新聞影片我們其實都沒有因為這不是屬於本院的行政院的這個這個新聞所以我們也沒有"},{"start":6751.734,"end":6763.53,"text":"請問部長你們一般的SOP是這樣子做嗎?難道中央政府被抹黑造謠的時候你們完全不去看這些抹黑造謠而且是民進黨黨部的開的記者會發言人開的記者會你們完全沒有掌握這樣的訊息嗎?"},{"start":6764.878,"end":6784.945,"text":"完全不澄清嗎?委員這個針對個案的部分而且這個不是內政部也不是國土署發的所以這個不是說要去澄清我們的部分那我剛剛已經舉報了有這樣的事情你剛剛就看到了還是我要再播一次給你看?委員剛剛在講說這並不是內政部的發言也不是國土署的發言"},{"start":6785.305,"end":6786.706,"text":"我本期希望的是說我們好好來推地方的建設"},{"start":6811.317,"end":6837.639,"text":"好好為地方來做努力來打拼,不要用這種故意惡意抹黑污衊的手法來擋地方的建設,你到底提供未來綜合、未來的發展、未來的方向是什麼?所以是不是請部長來回答一下,是不是應該要尊重國會,這樣子抹黑造謠的情況是不是應該要杜絕,是不是請署長或部長,你們應該,我應該要請部長,因為署長是行政官員,可是部長你明明就知道說這種事情不應該發生啊,"},{"start":6838.74,"end":6844.004,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":6865.523,"end":6875.167,"text":"那你們內政部完全沒有找過輿情分析嗎?不是,委員你對象可能找錯人了。他說施壓的是你了,所以你也被施壓欸。"},{"start":6878.55,"end":6886.173,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":6903.559,"end":6912.724,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":6930.313,"end":6938.174,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":6958.154,"end":6965.04,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":6989.301,"end":6991.906,"text":"我請您部長跟國土署長。來,請部長跟國土署長。部長。署長。"},{"start":7001.417,"end":7029.68,"text":"那個我記得我在4月11號我質詢的時候有說像這個花蓮地震那有紅單黃單那雖然不是我們直接的責任但我們有督導的義務我們推薦市政府然後呢我那時候就說了那個餘震不斷那會不會再造成第二次的傷害那你看現在昨天的這樣子的話有好幾棟大樓又倒了"},{"start":7030.541,"end":7036.023,"text":"所以我想先請問一下署長,像這種情況如果都是這樣,那我們都沒有辦法去處理嗎?"},{"start":7044.64,"end":7049.305,"text":"二、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、"},{"start":7064.201,"end":7069.905,"text":"凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7094.163,"end":7104.989,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。五、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。六、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。"},{"start":7118.738,"end":7124.363,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7140.518,"end":7152.711,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7160.8,"end":7167.39,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":7178.265,"end":7195.918,"text":"那另外是剛剛委員在關心提到的就是因為地震它一發生的時候第一次那個7.2的時候其實它建築物就有可能已經受損了那它要評估之後才要能決定說可不可以補強那有一些可能是沒有辦法補強的"},{"start":7197.319,"end":7202.865,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7217.581,"end":7227.904,"text":"當然縣政府有反映說現在因為比較缺工也缺機具那昨天院長也特別指示我們會積極的來協助當然也希望地方政府能夠加油"},{"start":7230.393,"end":7251.268,"text":"我必須要說地方政府有沒有積極這是非常重要的事我那天就是說要求地方政府要積極我跟你講地方政府如何積極其實有很多的業者有很多的什麼我們都可以去拜託他然後請他們來幫趕快盡量去協助或開口合約趕快去做其實如果有做"},{"start":7252.048,"end":7257.131,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7272.699,"end":7274.78,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7295.825,"end":7318.671,"text":"每個縣市首長的個性都不一樣啦那他反正就放在那裡也是放著有積極的也是積極我記得在921的時候臺北縣政府的時候馬上請所有的工會所有的什麼該做的做然後連瓷磚什麼的全部都用好我覺得這就積極度的問題我不知道部長你的看法如何"},{"start":7320.741,"end":7347.788,"text":"當然其實地方政府他可以他如果有缺工或者是缺料或者缺技術人員的話當然他也可以主動比如說這個來邀集全國各縣市的這個相關的一個工會來協助甚至也可以跟鄰近的縣市直接來聯繫請求其實這在過去都有已經都行之有年也有相關的一個機制當然中央我們從一開始到現在都是積極的在幫忙"},{"start":7348.593,"end":7375.885,"text":"對我部長你說的沒有錯齁我我現在說的就是說我們以前的機制都有在但那個機制啊是義務跟他自己啦縣市首長想那個也是責任對就其他的縣市是義務跟責任我去協調我是認為說是應該把它明確化如果你這個縣市首長你沒有做到什麼什麼我們應該要求他也有一個標準來啦"},{"start":7376.525,"end":7388.614,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7411.559,"end":7429.153,"text":"今天我們討論這個國籍法的修法有兩個重點一個是第5條裡面針對特殊的專業人才兩年就可以申請規劃來為我們台灣爭取更好的人才我相信這個各黨各派其實都有提出版本我覺得這個沒有什麼問題因為大家的差別並不大"},{"start":7429.753,"end":7435.777,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7445.683,"end":7449.186,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7471.966,"end":7473.888,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7488.041,"end":7493.007,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7509.545,"end":7513.646,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7529.611,"end":7534.937,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7551.475,"end":7560.538,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。五、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。六、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。"},{"start":7573.121,"end":7581.263,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7596.704,"end":7602.247,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7625.609,"end":7636.533,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7653.699,"end":7653.979,"text":"規劃條件才存在。"},{"start":7675.318,"end":7689.398,"text":"這是我的擔心啦當然我們也不會去惡意的說生母都會這樣想只是說當我們條件列在那邊的時候這樣的條件反而讓小孩更容易規劃委員我是不是請市長補充一下"},{"start":7693.661,"end":7709.272,"text":"委員報告針對這種黑戶寶寶其實我們有一連串的那個認定的程序是首先要這個這一個人要是父不祥生母為外國人這個是第一個條件第二個要經過"},{"start":7711.107,"end":7733.259,"text":"住外管處請國家諧巡3個月,或者是生母還在國內要經過移民署諧巡6個月都找不到了。這是第二階段。第三階段就是還要原屬國的國家不承認這個小孩子具有他的國籍,或者是他3個月都沒有回復的時候,地方政府才會把這種黑戶寶寶的個案報給我們來認定他為"},{"start":7737.902,"end":7740.584,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":7754.956,"end":7764.744,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7782.612,"end":7784.753,"text":"黃健兵委員質詢林部長"},{"start":7810.237,"end":7811.86,"text":"部長您是都市計劃相關科系畢業的嗎?"},{"start":7822.225,"end":7829.627,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7849.904,"end":7854.785,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7875.618,"end":7894.215,"text":"我們現在我們現在那個12萬戶第一期的部分在今年年底應該是可以達成而且甚至可以稍微有點超標那那未來的8年的時間我想因為過去需要一點摸索的這個還有累積經驗的一個過程"},{"start":7895.196,"end":7899.218,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7912.546,"end":7919.55,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7931.837,"end":7935.04,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7951.192,"end":7958.063,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7967.356,"end":7972.141,"text":"中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計3案。四、中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7988.376,"end":7990.12,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":7999.639,"end":8004.52,"text":"報告提看到114年到119年的城鄉淨嶺綠生活及創生營造計畫,這個部分是在國土署?對,在國土署。署長,這個計畫是屬於競爭型的對不對?跟委員報告,當然現在有競爭型,當然也會有"},{"start":8022.945,"end":8033.135,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":8042.763,"end":8049.248,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":8058.555,"end":8086.214,"text":"讓我們重新整建整個核心區域還有周邊的公關公共空間來改善都市的生活機能讓提升我們居民的環境品質這樣是能夠是不是能夠有有有效的嚇阻我們人口往外跑是這樣不對嗎對不對沒錯那這樣跟我們的創生計畫是不是有相違配兩個其實概念是不一樣因為創生創生本來就是希望你原來在你原來的社區裡面"},{"start":8086.772,"end":8089.814,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":8100.851,"end":8106.094,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":8124.506,"end":8133.274,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":8149.449,"end":8154.194,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":8173.351,"end":8201.48,"text":"所以我想這個部分我們都沒有停還會繼續本席會這樣問我最主要是真的很擔心因為台東縣相對資源就比較小如果在這樣的條件下跟其他縣競爭它也相對的弱勢那弱勢會越來越弱勢所以有署長這樣的承諾我也很放心也可以讓台東縣民知道說未來在競爭上中央絕對會來支持這個我們會跟國發會一起合作繼續把這一個部分把它推動下去"},{"start":8202.12,"end":8207.162,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":8222.861,"end":8247.771,"text":"部長我剛本來想請花次留下來就是想要跟他討論一點點就是一個是租金的政策租金補貼的政策另外一個就是設宅的政策但我想起來在你任內推動的這個租金補貼其實是來質詢你是讓你來回應也是更有意義的請問你認為今年還要不要繼續做這個中央擴大租金補貼300億的這一項補貼"},{"start":8250.754,"end":8260.085,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":8266.264,"end":8276.875,"text":"你是說租屋租屋大概是87萬多將近90萬那來申請的有64萬戶那通過申請那核准的有45萬戶嗎那所以代表這個80萬戶裡面有15萬戶裡面沒有超過20萬戶他沒有來申請租屋補貼那有10萬戶他沒有通過我們的租屋補貼"},{"start":8290.788,"end":8301.677,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":8310.953,"end":8337.019,"text":"如果他去跟我們申請租屋補貼造成他的房東不高興把他趕出去不租房子給他了我們對於房東的相關的罰則我們還沒有出來那我也不敢去跟陳其仁保證說不會你放心你去申請你跟內政部申請你去申請你絕對不會被趕出去部長這個問題你有沒有想配套的配套的措施我們怎麼樣來繼續推動那怎麼樣"},{"start":8339.64,"end":8343.443,"text":"讓所有租屋族真的都可以拿到租金補貼,真的趕來申請。"},{"start":8345.962,"end":8370.626,"text":"委員兩個部分第一個是剛剛在講全國的租屋有87萬那現在其實這個比例已經很高了我們預計大概我們的覆蓋率應該是再提升一點我們大概80%是極致的因為不可能是100%所以現在的比例其實相對已經高所以剛剛在講我們本來是1.0現在變成2.0所以解決了部分的一個問題"},{"start":8374.847,"end":8382.314,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":8398.137,"end":8416.606,"text":"那剛剛在提到因為它涉及還是私權這個租賃它是一個民法之間的一個關係所以你剛剛提到那個強制人業部分的確我們也還在做一些思考那我請那個吳署長來做一個補充吳署長簡短"},{"start":8418.507,"end":8434.214,"text":"好,謝謝委員,其實這一塊的確是這幾年來慢慢會一直累積這個問題,那我們其實也試著很多方法,那也跟委員報告,其實我們現在核定數已經到昨天已經衝破49萬戶,所以其實很快就大飆了。好,署長謝謝,來我們請那個移民署,署長,謝謝,好,署長,有"},{"start":8447.543,"end":8471.075,"text":"有超過6萬甚至更多的非法居留的外籍移工那他們可能都在各地打工他們可能從事很多台灣人不願意去從事的行業那他們可能有很多原因他們已經超過時間然後沒有回到他們的國家去那這個是我們移民署這邊專情隊這邊會去執行的任務對不對是"},{"start":8475.287,"end":8488.577,"text":"那現在大概有多少?我們的執行狀況大概怎樣?四年一共的部分,到今年的1月份大概累計有8萬5千多。"},{"start":8490.234,"end":8510.363,"text":"來謝謝其實我們今天國籍法在討論這個黑戶寶寶其實有一部分我想來自這個失聯移工他們長期留在台灣他們長期在台灣打工生活他們生出來的寶寶沒有辦法報戶口因為一報那好可能就是"},{"start":8511.492,"end":8517.578,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":8538.871,"end":8546.338,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":8561.191,"end":8572.098,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":8594.321,"end":8594.744,"text":"請內政部林部長。"},{"start":8608.294,"end":8620.945,"text":"4月23日凌晨花蓮又發生兩起6.0規模地震,導致原本就已經受損的統帥及富凱大飯店更為傾斜。請問部長,最近餘震頻傳,內政部是不是有再繼續勘查受災的狀況?目前最新的紅單有幾件,黃單有幾件?我們持續都在進行當中,目前"},{"start":8634.553,"end":8640.777,"text":"我們通報危險件物的總件數是2019件那以派案評估是1996件張天宏單是累計是76件另外黃單的部分是148件"},{"start":8650.188,"end":8656.912,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":8680.246,"end":8686.092,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":8698.464,"end":8708.811,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":8719.258,"end":8727.803,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":8748.095,"end":8754.377,"text":"審查內政部主管預算案有關內政部主管預算案有關內政部主管預算案有關內政部主管預算案有關內政部主管預算案有關內政部主管預算案有關內政部主管預算案有關內政部主管預算案有關內政部主管預算案有關內政部主管預算案有關內政部主管預算案有關內政部主管預算案"},{"start":8775.222,"end":8786.29,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":8802.328,"end":8830.635,"text":"講的就是要繼續推動數位身份證確保各系統的建制跟管理以及專案的履行如期如質的舉行落實治安規範還需投入更多的資源所以希望爭取更多的經費請問部長數位身份證的政策已經跟廠商進行仲裁和解未來要如何繼續推動還有數位身份證的管理專法何時可以送到立法院審查"},{"start":8831.255,"end":8840.199,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":8856.769,"end":8858.031,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":8863.345,"end":8872.628,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":8891.935,"end":8897.479,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":8913.01,"end":8925.594,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。五、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。六、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。七、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。八、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。"},{"start":8941.3,"end":8945.162,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":8966.545,"end":8982.757,"text":"是,跟委員報告一下,那個經費的部分,這個實際上我們支出的經費是10.85億,這個非常的清楚,可以會後再跟委員做詳細的一個說明。所以說審計部估算的是錯的就對了,是嗎?"},{"start":8984.738,"end":9002.727,"text":"我相信審計不會,不過我們明確的數字非常的清楚是10.85億,這個會後再跟委員報告。那委員提到的這個機器設備能不能使用,機器是可以的,但是它那個晶片的部分,因為我們可能還要另外採購。"},{"start":9004.206,"end":9006.368,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9035.069,"end":9039.151,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9051.562,"end":9066.426,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管"},{"start":9076.328,"end":9084.615,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9094.864,"end":9100.447,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9112.142,"end":9118.504,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9145.481,"end":9146.341,"text":"請書面回覆,請你務必書面回覆。"},{"start":9170.627,"end":9194.8,"text":"委員,因為這是屬於地方基層警察在執勤的狀況,你是不是可以方便把相關資料提供給我們?可以可以,沒問題。接著我們還要針對源頭,其實會有這樣的噪音,不管是轎車或機車,它是不是就是改裝的機車或者是轎車的修理廠?"},{"start":9195.72,"end":9199.704,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9214.821,"end":9221.028,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9237.486,"end":9253.826,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。五、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。六、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。"},{"start":9254.907,"end":9262.39,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9281.737,"end":9308.114,"text":"你持續收集各界意見這個是符合原來提案凍結的目的嗎?沒有。接著新式身份證後續推動工作將由個人資料保護委員會進行政策、治安以及法治方面的意見整合。這個很有趣你個人資料保護委員會根本都還沒有存在可能還在籌備的單位你就直接回覆解凍報告說你會"},{"start":9310.123,"end":9317.988,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9334.966,"end":9349.298,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。五、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。六、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。"},{"start":9351.067,"end":9377.722,"text":"凍結的理由也就第10屆的委員就說你應該由專業人員辦理來減少公帑支出結果解凍報告就說如果凍結就無法順利委外辦理那你這不就是打臉直接打臉提案委員你這樣打臉提案委員你還希望解凍所以這是第二個再來還有還有更好笑的"},{"start":9378.973,"end":9393.256,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9409.039,"end":9426.091,"text":"解凍報告就說凍結這100萬我會沒有預算可供之應其實像這類的部長像這些言過其實不然敷衍了事不然答非所問的那我們真的能夠幫你解凍嗎你自己個人的意見委員是不是容許我們簡單跟你做說明一下好不好"},{"start":9432.393,"end":9437.458,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9456.394,"end":9460.621,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9468.141,"end":9476.005,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9496.275,"end":9497.937,"text":"維老重建一直是台灣建築老化的重要策略。"},{"start":9514.432,"end":9528.72,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心118案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心118案。"},{"start":9531.101,"end":9548.464,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":9549.005,"end":9560.572,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9578.254,"end":9600.568,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9608.683,"end":9615.226,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":9623.507,"end":9625.008,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9640.134,"end":9645.779,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9664.161,"end":9669.451,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9676.503,"end":9683.927,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9703.757,"end":9709.422,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":9726.889,"end":9731.971,"text":"內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9756.758,"end":9765.885,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。八、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。九、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。十、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。十、審查內政部主管"},{"start":9785.279,"end":9794.402,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":9812.509,"end":9824.659,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":9838.73,"end":9849.638,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":9867.751,"end":9874.677,"text":"函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":9894.452,"end":9900.216,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9921.107,"end":9929.031,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9942.819,"end":9948.422,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":9970.393,"end":9976.476,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10000.228,"end":10003.13,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10030.388,"end":10043.916,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10061.667,"end":10063.112,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅"},{"start":10068.375,"end":10092.587,"text":"去年三度通過的平均地權條例主要是為了實現居住正義的價值因此裡面有非常多的規範其中有個部分會打擊炒房內政部曾經公開宣示過房子是拿來住的不是拿來投資的也不是拿來炒作的所以我們才推動平均地權條例杜絕炒作的行為"},{"start":10094.045,"end":10117.591,"text":"在這整個規範的架構下面我們說司法人司法人他沒有住宅的需求他沒有住的需求所以平均地權條例79條之一要求什麼他說司法人買賣住宅的時候要檢據使用計劃要中央主管機關許可這個所講的中央主管機關我想應該是內政部沒有問題好"},{"start":10119.336,"end":10134.924,"text":"內政部在《平定定義條例》下面的授權針對司法人買賣住宅的許可定定了一個辦法定定了這個法規命令把司法人可以去買住宅的情況限制為6款的狀況但是6款的狀況"},{"start":10138.277,"end":10159.006,"text":"必須要經過內政部審核通過以後才能購買。部長到目前為止我對於法規的說明應該都沒有錯誤吧?是嗎?好。那但是呢我去一步啊因為法律通過規通過我們要看實際上面實踐的效果嘛那我去調查資料以後我赫然發現竟然"},{"start":10161.806,"end":10185.764,"text":"有一堆公司用宿舍當作名義當初我們在許可辦法裡面訂宿舍是說司法人去買了住宅然後提供員工宿舍使用但我看裡面一堆投資公司我看員工的人數我嚇一跳員工人數只有一個人"},{"start":10186.877,"end":10211.037,"text":"一個人的員工人數要去買住宅那是一人公司然後去買住宅然後老闆提供給老闆自己當宿舍用嗎怎麼會有這麼荒謬的情況那進一步去看他買什麼宿舍我的老天啊這些公司真是太有佛心了他買的宿舍全部都是豪宅耶以平安環語來講他買的是3.2億90坪"},{"start":10217.174,"end":10229.667,"text":"以續倉新企業有限公司來講,他買的是多少?6.4億!6.4億的文華宴!我看了這個通過的狀況以後,我真的嚇壞了!部長!我們看具體的例子就好了!台北市前十大豪宅,西華富邦,"},{"start":10240.236,"end":10253.431,"text":"公司只有一個人然後他要買2.3億的宿舍給那個人住這個是我們當初平均地權條例修法讓主管機關審核的修法意旨嗎來請部長"},{"start":10257.029,"end":10267.017,"text":"二、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10282.83,"end":10307.193,"text":"第一個層次內政部要把關司法人什麼時候可以買要內政部核准嗎核准了以後5年之內不能傳送那是第二個層次的問題嘛請您不要把兩個層次的問題混在一起談我是在請教的是第一個層次的問題內政部怎麼准的我今天聽部長這樣講我很肯定啊你說不應該嘛那不應該是怎麼准的啊"},{"start":10308.906,"end":10323.747,"text":"我想這個是應該是我們地政司在這法剛通過的初期的時候那現在他們也已經在修改這個辦法這個已經不允許了你不用去修改辦法你回去看啊這個是哪門子宿舍啊"},{"start":10324.708,"end":10338.846,"text":"用道理說服我阿用道理說服台灣社會阿用道理說服關心居住正義的人阿這是哪門子敘事阿一人公司買2.3億的豪宅一個人住這樣內政部也准部長會不會太扯阿"},{"start":10342.635,"end":10356.683,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10370.467,"end":10394.489,"text":"還不是只有這一個下面這個更誇張下面這個是文華院5.6億5.6億的文華院買來住六人宿舍我一去查哪家公司福利這麼好我要趕快去丟履歷表可以住5.6億的文華院式宿舍結果一查是台灣的巨富陳泰銘"},{"start":10395.968,"end":10410.2,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10425.885,"end":10448.824,"text":"部長,這件事情要不要檢討?呃,我想這個當然要檢討。好!需要多久?呃,現在已經,呃,剛剛在講的是,呃,我們地政室在修許可辦法,不過,呃,委員,我跟你報告,這個事情,呃,我想這個是不容許的,因為這個是在鑽漏洞。部長,這已經容許了,這不是不容許,已經容許了,已經被容許了。這種事情,這個事情不應該發生。對!"},{"start":10450.632,"end":10470.843,"text":"所以我就說嘛你們當初法規怎麼解釋適用的部長說要檢討時間到了我尊重其他委員後面的質詢但分兩個部分一個當初怎麼准的符不符合當初你們定辦法的意旨這是一個層次的問題嘛第二個未來辦法要怎麼修這是第二個層次的問題嘛這兩個層次的問題請內政部提出書面的檢討報告部長需要多久"},{"start":10477.861,"end":10487.288,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10507.302,"end":10516.209,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10533.497,"end":10537.843,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10550.439,"end":10555.744,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10571.67,"end":10583.876,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計3案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。八、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10596.181,"end":10600.604,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10626.364,"end":10636.568,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10653.294,"end":10670.486,"text":"這個輕軌整合會不會影響到區徵範圍底價地比例的相關核定時程?他有可能會影響不過為什麼要影響到區段徵收範圍跟比例的時程呢?因為這關乎整個社址島未來的發展區段徵收的範圍嗎?底價地的比例嗎?跟輕軌有什麼關係呢?會的因為機場設在社址島"},{"start":10676.55,"end":10684.492,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10698.436,"end":10704.238,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10717.543,"end":10722.685,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10739.571,"end":10754.341,"text":"部長我了解你的用心希望能夠把機場拿出去讓大家更多的空地來做公共設施但是這些東西我只有一個簡單的要求它不應該影響內政部在所謂的區段徵收計畫開發範圍跟底價比例影響到整個測試島的開發時程"},{"start":10760.365,"end":10768.787,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10777.79,"end":10785.396,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10804.432,"end":10808.433,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10833.322,"end":10841.266,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10861.989,"end":10887.334,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管"},{"start":10892.722,"end":10911.833,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。五、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。六、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。"},{"start":10920.08,"end":10928.986,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10945.247,"end":10963.89,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":10966.294,"end":10973.12,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":10994.232,"end":11021.345,"text":"請本部依非都市土地使用管制規則第30條之一第一項第一款規定會商中央目的事業主管機關認定文化機會所系由政府新辦之公共設施。要去認定它是不是公共設施。後來內政營建署當時的營建署就發文給延明會請延明會是不是延明會"},{"start":11022.726,"end":11047.027,"text":"發函說去年的8月15號阿拉巴萬部落5號集會所新辦事業計劃屬政府新辦之公共設施。過去因為沒有經費,現在有經費了,就是花東基金。好不容易有花東基金,它確實是因為用地的企的一直延旦。你看去年到現在你看,"},{"start":11049.546,"end":11076.304,"text":"內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度中心113年度"},{"start":11080.202,"end":11090.328,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11108.188,"end":11122.245,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11124.623,"end":11145.379,"text":"國土功能分析圖資日期7億計劃法不再適用。所以現在目前還在適用7億計劃法。所以這個部分是不是可以...感謝委員啦其實這個部分第一個是當然是一個提醒啦第二個就是說因為這個案子比較特別因為它在它是屬於這個林業用地所以它當然還要經過跟"},{"start":11146.42,"end":11157.509,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11172.031,"end":11176.978,"text":"就依現行的7計劃法及非都市土地使用管制規則來辦理。"},{"start":11188.738,"end":11195.92,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11215.762,"end":11225.428,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11231.786,"end":11231.906,"text":"二、審查"},{"start":11255.267,"end":11261.292,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":11285.971,"end":11288.974,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11298.376,"end":11302.777,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11321.903,"end":11327.949,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11345.447,"end":11353.61,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管"},{"start":11374.258,"end":11382.463,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管"},{"start":11402.836,"end":11413.323,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11432.697,"end":11440.62,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11449.804,"end":11452.786,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11465.473,"end":11470.659,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11487.617,"end":11493.702,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11510.014,"end":11514.357,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11536.488,"end":11548.294,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。"},{"start":11566.736,"end":11584.582,"text":"委員跟你報告其實我們本來就有相關機制來處理我們本來大概這樣子的額少大概有3612人那目前已經有2084人已經協助處理完然後出境所以他是有一個是出境那我想請教的是這些要留在台灣的呢"},{"start":11585.322,"end":11589.065,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11605.157,"end":11613.445,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11631.317,"end":11636.799,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11657.085,"end":11676.413,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計3案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管"},{"start":11680.234,"end":11697.298,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11707.947,"end":11713.608,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11737.734,"end":11739.715,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11757.859,"end":11765.325,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11785.121,"end":11791.067,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11805.16,"end":11816.982,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11834.485,"end":11839.427,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":11855.041,"end":11868.833,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":11870.714,"end":11898.753,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":11900.975,"end":11925.572,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":11928.49,"end":11953.497,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":11961.37,"end":11965.488,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":11970.794,"end":11995.916,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":11997.958,"end":12014.995,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":12021.097,"end":12038.09,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":12040.932,"end":12056.827,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":12059.048,"end":12081.635,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":12093.723,"end":12113.313,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":12119.94,"end":12126.851,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":12142.524,"end":12166.416,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。八、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":12169.735,"end":12199.104,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。八、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":12205.759,"end":12235.207,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。八、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。"},{"start":12275.811,"end":12300.327,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":12310.316,"end":12333.586,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":12339.326,"end":12363.62,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":12368.985,"end":12381.529,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":12397.655,"end":12422.26,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":12428.029,"end":12431.303,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計4案。"},{"start":12444.08,"end":12458.891,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":12460.353,"end":12481.087,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":12492.659,"end":12502.848,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。"},{"start":12510.279,"end":12526.964,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":12532.418,"end":12551.545,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。五、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。六、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。七、審查內政部函"},{"start":12556.574,"end":12563.96,"text":"這次國際外的推動,我想其實我畫得很大聲,大家都在拍片,所以從2021年我們去走書勳規劃的阿提諾,到去年成功在國際藍種認證是本土資格的阿巴西,"},{"start":12581.855,"end":12608.313,"text":"一路走來其實大家都有一點點貢獻但內政委員會大家一起去努力可是本席在上一屆就是2021年提出的一個修法的一個版本上一屆本席在當召委的時候其實我很想排審但是沒有辦法啦您就說擔院板出來我以後院板也怎麼出來要作回信嘛還在讀許春甯的爭議所以就暫行擱置因為這期不連續又拖過了一陣子所以今天我要感謝吳清明召委的排審"},{"start":12614.118,"end":12626.692,"text":"其實我們倒可以借這個時候來好好討論國際法所面臨到的一些困境我看這麼多委員的版本裡面大家對於這個第五條的部分這個高專人才的一個年限修正為連續這個"},{"start":12629.5,"end":12633.441,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":12654.409,"end":12656.19,"text":"二、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":12675.916,"end":12677.478,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":12691.772,"end":12702.315,"text":"對於部份職業運動選手來講是一個非常好用的尤其是我們到很多國家去都可以免簽那同時很多人想去對岸職業的一個聯賽去做一個發展那畢竟比我們本土的聯賽還要好同時對岸長期以來為了吸引我們優秀的一個選手在職業運動聯賽裡面都有所謂的一些特例以籃球為例你去把它看就是說中國聯賽常常會限定所謂的洋將名額"},{"start":12720.06,"end":12723.322,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":12749.724,"end":12753.526,"text":"配合相關義務。我們拿次長您的看法。謝謝委員對這個議題的關心。我想這樣子,如果我們在這個歸國籍以後,我們在附帶條款的話,那會不會跟行政程序法93條的規定有違背?因為對於這種附帶條款的處分,那"},{"start":12778.151,"end":12783.334,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":12797.443,"end":12797.823,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":12812.654,"end":12815.255,"text":"二、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":12836.221,"end":12839.303,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":12855.253,"end":12857.714,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。"},{"start":12872.682,"end":12879.907,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管"},{"start":12900.862,"end":12901.382,"text":"強制規定主結構柱樑必須採用耐彎彎溝降低柱子高軸壓狀態核心爆裂的風險。"},{"start":12924.233,"end":12932.586,"text":"我們有紅單、黃單、危老都跟地方縣市政府的納管,我們中央政府還有什麼進一步要怎麼去處理管制行為?"},{"start":12935.046,"end":12956.157,"text":"這一部分我是不是請蘇財雲。博讀署。感謝委員其實我們跟委員報告在108年109年中就曾經針對全台灣七樓以上的建築物大概都做了一個快篩也就是把這些的設計圖就全部先來篩過一遍那全台灣大概有一萬兩千件是屬於"},{"start":12957.458,"end":12974.818,"text":"在建造的圖就看得出來是屬於比較落成的設計。那所以在當時也把這些資料都寄給各地方政府,請他們要轉資這些所有全人一定要仔細的去了解自己的狀況。那當然也是鼓勵他們做這個內政補強。"},{"start":12976.4,"end":12979.583,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":12992.114,"end":12997.258,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13018.234,"end":13019.114,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13038.661,"end":13048.687,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。"},{"start":13067.418,"end":13077.146,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13095.526,"end":13102.852,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13124.063,"end":13131.028,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13144.83,"end":13171.365,"text":"我們希望花蓮平安也很感謝內政部還有感謝這次救災的國軍弟兄但是我們也必須要來檢討我們目前這個防災的重要性因為昨天也遇到很多住外這個住台的使節啦他們在這些餘震之後心非常害怕那也他們也住過非常多其他的國家所以我們今天主要是來對比一下也學習鄰國日本"},{"start":13172.125,"end":13186.93,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。五、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。六、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。七、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。八、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。"},{"start":13199.774,"end":13206.6,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13219.211,"end":13242.217,"text":"經由這個內政部的消防署要先選擇住在哪一個縣市哪一區哪一個鄉鎮光是查詢這些就需要20秒的時間非常的長也許平常我們在家裡會準備防災包這個都是大家有接受教育的可是地震常常發生在我們上班的時候在通勤的時候"},{"start":13242.797,"end":13248.441,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13264.13,"end":13269.673,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13293.127,"end":13299.473,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13313.715,"end":13317.377,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13343.798,"end":13363.557,"text":"謝謝這個委員的指教我想這一個防災資訊其實在我們的消防署有一個APP還有警政當然都有那當然你必須要去廣播宣傳讓民眾都清楚知道你可以透過這樣的APP去得到相關的資訊那就像剛剛委員講可能你要上網還要一段時間"},{"start":13364.178,"end":13367.762,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13385.52,"end":13387.423,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13400.964,"end":13405.588,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13429.329,"end":13434.973,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13448.721,"end":13477.538,"text":"去建構一個很完善的APP是吃力不逃而且預算很高所以這是我們很多業務常常會用的就是很簡單的Google Map他在哪一個區域他就可以找到附近有什麼咖啡廳有什麼餐廳而且可以引導你直接到那個路線所以我是具體的建議內政部是不是有考慮跟這些大型的網路公司來做合作因為他不管在什麼位置遇到災難他其實就可以具體的找出他最近的一些避難所應該要怎麼去"},{"start":13484.304,"end":13502.89,"text":"感謝委員關心防災的議題我們現在開發的防災應變APP事實上就是有這樣的功能甚至可以用虛擬導覽的方式可以達到我們必然的一個地方這個目前已經建設好那當然這樣的運作如果說委員建議是跟Google來做一個合作"},{"start":13503.37,"end":13526.911,"text":"那你旁邊的次長剛剛說他並沒有具體的去查過他家附近的防災所以兩個部分啦對就是防災的社區跟防災的剛才地圖這個部分在地方政府都已經有建設只不過可能大家對這個議事的推動我們可能還有很大的努力空間這第一部分那第二部分就地圖地圖的GIS地圖的使用目前臺灣也把這個系統開發好"},{"start":13528.832,"end":13534.156,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13550.465,"end":13557.69,"text":"張振淺委員不在。楊瓊英委員不在。樓志強委員不在。鍾嘉斌委員不在。吳佩儀委員不在。陳佩儀委員執行。"},{"start":13577.878,"end":13606.254,"text":"好,謝謝主席,那有請部長。謝謝。好,請次長。好,謝謝。次長,好,次長,謝謝。委員好。好,次長吳安,我想要說一下,我們投影片還在,沒關係,我想說一下,關於今天內政部這個法案的評估,我們覺得非常失望,因為我們辦公室提出了一個相關的討論,那其實這個討論其實也是國際趨勢,那就是關於這個運動員入籍的部分,那不知道這個部分,我們辦公室的條文,請問次長您有研究過嗎?"},{"start":13612.158,"end":13632.148,"text":"我們要談的是運動員規劃其實應該正確說法是有分成所謂的入籍跟規劃兩種這兩種途徑都有那我在投影片上的左邊是選入籍的部分右邊是屬於條件規劃的部分那有分成居留的時間或是因為配偶的關係或是高專甚至是非常特殊的叫做書勳我想次長應該都非常清楚"},{"start":13632.648,"end":13635.132,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13648.971,"end":13668.542,"text":"2023年女足世界盃,菲律賓有策略聯絡許多美籍非裔選手加入,打敗台灣取得世界盃晉級門票。到了今年足球亞洲盃,印尼與馬來西亞透過海外二代子弟成功打入世界殿堂。這種積極尋找血緣關係選手的做法,其實真的是目前國際體壇的趨勢。可是這邊我們來看一下,"},{"start":13673.044,"end":13694.304,"text":"在足球界最高殿堂世界盃在俱樂部的部分有一個所謂的俱樂部世界盃那這個部分畫面中這個球員叫做Jordan他的祖母是臺灣人他目前正在紐西蘭的奧克蘭FC效力在去年的俱樂部世界當中呢不只有FIFA幫他做了個人專輯他自己也成為了第一個踏上俱樂部世界盃的"},{"start":13695.185,"end":13697.866,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13716.095,"end":13725.28,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管"},{"start":13745.191,"end":13752.315,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13774.124,"end":13782.587,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13803.135,"end":13818.207,"text":"即將521上任賴總統也說要發展國家體育政策國家體育部的這件事情可是我們卻沒有更多優秀人才他們也有意願回來為國家臺灣國家對效力但是在目前你們高專說縮短那你們又要研議多久所以我們當時的提案是說"},{"start":13818.727,"end":13834.2,"text":"可不可以在民國69年以前出生具有中華民國國籍的女性子女在不影響到既有的國籍法第二條第二項的精神前提底下用體育例外的概念我們當然知道不能廣開國籍大門會造成很多的爭議跟討論可是透過特定體育團體主動為球員發聲為淡書然後我們同時還保留撤銷的可能性"},{"start":13841.741,"end":13844.822,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13859.648,"end":13865.472,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13884.224,"end":13887.345,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13906.61,"end":13911.292,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13919.281,"end":13927.683,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13948.649,"end":13952.151,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13964.7,"end":13972.022,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":13991.08,"end":14017.748,"text":"市長好今天可能會比較簡短因為是針對這個0403受災戶的住宅補貼的實際上面的實施問題那我想4月3號以來地震這個陸續而且是昨天4月22號還是有許多的餘震那許多住宅分別被添上紅單黃單那民眾的居住安全我們可以知道是直接受到威脅那特別是一般的學生那可能是他也不是居住在此地可能是來這邊留在這邊這個就學的"},{"start":14020.149,"end":14041.848,"text":"先肯定國土署那因應緊急居住需求有推出0403的補貼方案,包含租金補助、自購住宅的貸款例行補貼,還有修繕住宅的貸款補貼。但是目前,受災戶如果有租屋的需求,不管是自行或透過包租貸款來去媒合,政府都有提供租金補貼。"},{"start":14043.149,"end":14048.031,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14068.833,"end":14095.576,"text":"跟委員報告,其實租金補貼,他只要回歸一般的就可以了。只要回歸一般就好?對,一般的我們那個50萬戶的,他們還是可以繼續申請。他們還是可以繼續申請?對,對,這個沒有問題。那我就這樣子跟回覆就是,一些來自花蓮,雖然說我們的選區不在那裡,可是我想...對,對,對,其實他們最主要是因為他們對校舍有些甚至澄清到我們這邊來,所以我們是希望說藉由這樣諮詢的機會把這樣的訊息來提供給大家。所以他們一樣可以繼續申請?"},{"start":14096.237,"end":14100.178,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14116.417,"end":14143.659,"text":"的確最近開始有一些新聞是說房東可能借機又再抬高因為在花蓮的租屋來源是相對有限所以房東又借機那第二個就是說不能申請租金補貼這倒是還沒有聽因為他們都希望你領租金補貼但是我再把房價再把它調高所以這些問題這些受災的這些民眾遇到這樣的問題的話我想請教有沒有什麼樣的相關的因應方式"},{"start":14144.346,"end":14155.722,"text":"其實現在的那個租屋定型化契約地政室這邊其實都有在做一些修正那當然最近可能還會再努力我想這一個有關租屋應該回歸定型化契約"},{"start":14156.493,"end":14165.237,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14185.998,"end":14188.5,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14209.614,"end":14214.536,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":14232.825,"end":14238.156,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14245.523,"end":14262.176,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。四、審查內政"},{"start":14274.991,"end":14276.892,"text":"請吳清明交委質詢吳清明交委質詢吳清明交委質詢吳清明交委質詢吳清明交委質詢"},{"start":14301.564,"end":14310.712,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14329.427,"end":14346.032,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。五、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。六、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。"},{"start":14348.899,"end":14356.566,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14370.872,"end":14383.888,"text":"我們所編列的在4月3號已經交付二讀,我們的正貨的重建經費150億,包含紅單以及黃單的整建。"},{"start":14393.238,"end":14406.343,"text":"重建的過程中,特別我們的預算適用的範圍是全國還是我們個別的像花蓮這個地方,是不是請我們的次長還是署長來做說明?根文報告,其實因為我們現在的建築設計裡面,"},{"start":14415.725,"end":14420.328,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14436.348,"end":14442.133,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14457.928,"end":14468.816,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14479.904,"end":14481.706,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、"},{"start":14497.691,"end":14508.494,"text":"凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14526.32,"end":14530.704,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14542.614,"end":14547.939,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14568.524,"end":14579.286,"text":"好,因為署長,所以主要是說,他這個署已經都卡嘛,但是現在他說,你說補償對他們來說,他們也都還不安心,還要等幾天,又有疑陣。所以說,在這種情況下,大家共同的心聲說,欸,可以來採取,但是我們政府可以提拔多少,如果給他們做補助,這是屬於他實際嘛。在這個部分,你們研究要怎麼處理好我,好不好?"},{"start":14595.329,"end":14608.459,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14623.49,"end":14628.805,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":14629.94,"end":14645.23,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管"},{"start":14657.381,"end":14659.002,"text":"內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、"},{"start":14673.695,"end":14681.223,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14696.638,"end":14703.92,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14735.587,"end":14759.373,"text":"登記發言委員除不在場之外,其已經已發言完畢,審打結束。委員黃仁以及我們牛行廷所提書面執行列入記錄刊登公報。書面執行及未答覆部分請相關單位一周內以書面答覆並複製本位。"},{"start":14761.96,"end":14764.822,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住都更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、業務成本與費用預算凍結100萬書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14792.106,"end":14808.376,"text":"請各位委員是否同意動之?不同意,好。好,那我們先休息一下,有自治中心先協商一下。"},{"start":14812.534,"end":14816.556,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14837.481,"end":14843.29,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":14847.962,"end":14873.072,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":14876.695,"end":14895.554,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14899.097,"end":14924.069,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":14925.751,"end":14938.588,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":14943.274,"end":14964.902,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":14967.944,"end":14977.043,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":14980.371,"end":15006.65,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":15011.127,"end":15027.462,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":15029.544,"end":15042.454,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":15046.737,"end":15068.294,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":15076.562,"end":15077.913,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":15080.7,"end":15107.089,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。八、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":15110.85,"end":15137.979,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管"},{"start":15140.261,"end":15160.174,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案。"},{"start":15165.131,"end":15165.991,"text":"同意通知提報委員會。"},{"start":15195.578,"end":15198.622,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":15217.522,"end":15218.683,"text":"審查內政資訊業務凍結200萬案。"},{"start":15229.324,"end":15245.654,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。八、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":15251.397,"end":15259.484,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":15288.32,"end":15299.103,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":15312.869,"end":15319.233,"text":"事項國際法部份條文修正草案所有版本及條文修正動議。請一併先讀。"},{"start":15338.796,"end":15361.01,"text":"先讀完畢再進行協商。國籍法部分條文修正草案。第二條,委員蘇巧慧等18人提案。增訂第三項,出生於中華民國領域內,其母為外國人,但有事實足認其刑方不明者,視同無可考。其餘同現行條文。委員王定宇等20人提案。增訂第三項、第四項、第五項分別為,"},{"start":15361.63,"end":15384.387,"text":"本法所稱無國籍人指任何國家依該國法律認定不屬於該國國民者有下列各款情形之一者等人定為無國籍人依持外國政府合法在民無國籍之旅行身份證件。二、符合入出國籍移民法第16條第二項至第4項規定之泰國、緬甸、印尼、印度或尼泊爾地區無國籍人民持有在民無國籍之外僑居留證。三、其他紀念政部認定"},{"start":15385.248,"end":15400.661,"text":"前項第三款之認定要進入被文件處理程序及其他相關事項之標準由內政部定之,其餘同現行條文。委員林黛化等17人提案,增訂第三項及第四項第一款。文字同委員王定理等20人提案,增訂第三項第二款。"},{"start":15402.373,"end":15430.364,"text":"證明第3項第二款二符合入住國及移民法第16條第二項之第4項之規定者其餘同性行條文。第4條行政院提案將第二項修正為未婚且未滿18歲之外國人或無國籍人有下列情形之一者在中華民國領域內合法拘留雖未滿3年前未具備前條第一項第二款第4款及第5款要件亦得申請規劃。一、父母養父或養母現為中華民國國民。二、借用社會福利主管機關或社會福利機構監護其餘同性行條文。"},{"start":15431.024,"end":15450.064,"text":"委員陸媒0等21人提案,將第二項修正為未婚未成年之外國人或無國籍人其父母、養父或養母現為中華民國國民者或其監護人為法院裁定之社會福利主管機關者,在中華民國0年內合法拘留稅未滿3年且未具備前條第一項第二款、第四款及第五款要件亦得申請規劃,其餘同性行條文。"},{"start":15450.825,"end":15474.177,"text":"委員鄭天才等19人提案、委員林一己等21人提案、委員王美惠等19人提案、委員鍾嘉碧等16人提案、均同行政院提案。委員陳益臻等18人提案,將未婚未成年文資修正為未婚且未滿18歲,其餘同性行條文。委員吳佩義等17人提案,第二項序文前段之未婚且未滿18歲文資修正為未婚未成年其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":15474.877,"end":15501.683,"text":"委員莊瑞雄等17人提案,將第二項修正為未婚且未滿18歲之外國人或無國籍人妻、父母、養父或養母現為中華民國國民者或現有社會福利主管及官社會福利機構經負者,在中華民國理念院合法拘留稅未滿3年且未具備前條第1項、第2款、第4款及第5款要件,亦得申請規劃,其餘同性行條文。四、臺灣民眾黨黨團提案,將第二項前段之未婚或成年人文資修正為未婚且未滿20歲,其餘同性行條文。"},{"start":15502.443,"end":15531.863,"text":"第5條,行政院提案,增訂第一項第三款。三、由中央目的事業主管機關推薦至高級專業人才有助中華民國利益並經內政部邀請社會公正人士及相關機關共同審核通過,且與中華民國領域內每年合計有183日以上合法拘留之事實繼續2年以上,或曾在中華民國領域內合法拘留繼續5年以上。第二項修正為,前項第3款,所定高級專業人才之認定要審核程序方式及其他相關事項之標準由內政部定之,其餘同性行條文。"},{"start":15532.604,"end":15540.179,"text":"委員鄭天才等19人提案、委員明英紀等21人提案、委員莊瑞祥等17人提案、委員鍾嘉斌等16人提案、軍統行政院提案。"},{"start":15541.567,"end":15561.738,"text":"委員王美惠等19人提案,增添第一項第三款。三、由中央目的事業主管機關推薦至高級專業人才,有助中華民國利益並經內政部邀請社會公正人士,相關領域專家學者及相關機關工人審核,通過且與中華民國領域內每年合計有183日以上合法居留之事實,繼續2年以上,或曾在中華民國領域內合法居留,繼續5年以上。"},{"start":15562.478,"end":15583.559,"text":"增訂第二項,內政部為前項第三款規劃許可得附加付款,為遵守附加之付款者得廢止其規劃許可。性情條文第二項一列第三項,並修正為第一項第三款鎖定高級專業人才之認定要進審核程序方式付款廢止規劃程序及其他相關事項之辦法,由內政部定之。增訂第四項,6年內曾具有"},{"start":15584.099,"end":15609.091,"text":"大陸、香港或澳門戶籍之外國人及五國語言不適用第一項第三款之規定。其餘同性行條文、委員黃結等20人提案。增訂第一項第三款。三、具特殊專業技能並經政府、機關企業或立案團體聘任專職且於中華民國領域內免免合計有183日以上合法居留之事實繼續2年以上或曾在中華民國領域內合法居留繼續5年以上。其餘同行政院提案。"},{"start":15610.273,"end":15624.987,"text":"第6條行政院提案增訂第3項依第1項規定申請規劃者免徵國籍許可徵書規費其餘通信型條文。委員鄭天才等19人提案委員林英吉等21人提案委員鍾嘉斌等16人提案均同行政院提案。"},{"start":15626.041,"end":15649.759,"text":"委員王美惠等19人提案,增訂第4項,第一項有書信與中華民國之認定原則,應被文件處理程序及其他相關事項之標準,由內政部定之,其餘同行政院提案。委員莊瑞雄等17人提案,增訂第二項後段,文字同行政院提案增訂至第三項,其餘頭線形條文。委員林旦化等17人提案,增訂第三項,文字同委員王美惠等19人提案,增訂第4項,其餘頭線形條文。"},{"start":15652.401,"end":15681.521,"text":"增訂第6條之一委員羅美琳等18人提案。第6條之一外國人或無國籍人居特殊專業機門並經政府機關或民間企業聘用專職於中華民國領域內合法連續居留2年以上且平均每年居住183日以上或曾在中華民國領域內合法居留積蓄5年以上者亦得申請規劃。內政部為前項規劃之許可應會同各民地事業主管機關開會決議後進行政院核准。另一名曾居有大陸、香港或澳門或及之外國人及無國籍人不適用本條。"},{"start":15682.541,"end":15710.126,"text":"委員陳培宇等18人提案。第6條之一,外國人之父母於本法中華民國89年2月9日修正施行時已滿20歲,且其父母之母為中華民國國民如期符合澳亞域項目國際體育組織規範或與取得國籍後可直接代表我國參與國際賽事,得經外國人本人同意後由特定體育團體申請規劃,避免提出喪失原有國籍。內政部為前項規劃之許可,應與教育部共同會商後進行爭議核准。"},{"start":15711.326,"end":15738.047,"text":"依本條申請規劃通過者自規劃核定日期5年內受交易部列管如未依交易部通知之期限地點配合國家代表隊完成報道參加集訓或比賽的撤銷其規劃許可。第7條行政院提案將未婚未成年子女文資修正為未婚前未滿18歲子女其餘同性型條文。委員蘇巧慧等18人提案增訂並修正為規劃人之未成年子女的申請隨同規劃但未成年子女之原屬國法令不允許放棄"},{"start":15739.148,"end":15762.808,"text":"國籍或需滿一定年名以上時的放棄國籍者得取得五國居留並享有國民之權利義務。委員鄭天才等19人提案。委員陳玉珍等18人提案。委員林益錦等21人提案。委員王美惠等19人提案。委員莊瑞雄等17人提案。委員鍾嘉斌等16人提案。軍統行政院提案。台灣民眾黨黨團提案將未婚未成年子女自修正為未婚且未滿20歲子女其餘通信息條文。"},{"start":15763.729,"end":15784.069,"text":"第9條行政院提案將第4項第1款第2款修正為1、1第5條第1項第3款規定申請規劃,2、1第6條第1項規定申請規劃,刪除第5項其餘同線型條文。委員鄭天才等19人提案,委員林盈瑾等21人提案,委員王美惠等19人提案,委員莊玉雄等17人提案,均同行政院提案。"},{"start":15784.75,"end":15810.128,"text":"五雲中嘉賓等16人提案,增訂第4項第4款。四、上述申請人之配偶及未成年子女得隨同本人申請,未隨同本人申請者得於本人申請許可後申請之。本人國籍許可經撤銷後廢止時,原隨同獲予其許可後申請配偶之子女之國籍許可應並同撤銷後廢止之。其餘同行政院提案。五雲黃街等20人提案。第4項第2款修正委。二、依第5條第1項及3款規定申請規劃。刪除第5項其餘同性行條文。"},{"start":15815.748,"end":15837.286,"text":"第19條委員王定宇等20人提案第一項前段之除1第9條第一項規定文資修正為除違反第9條第一項規定其餘同性行條文。第二十條行政院提案將第一項序文修正為中華民國國民局的外國國籍者不得擔任中華民國公職其已擔任者除立法委員由立法院直轄市縣市直轄市山地原住民區鄉鎮市民"},{"start":15839.508,"end":15853.909,"text":"民選公職人員分別由行政院內政部直轄市政府、縣政府、村里長、由商政市區公所解除其公職外,由各該機關免除其公職,但下列各款經該主管機關核准者不在此限。其餘同性行條文。"},{"start":15854.77,"end":15884.142,"text":"委員鄭天才等19人提案第一項序文修正為中華民國國民局的外國國籍者不得擔任中華民國公職其擔任者除立法委員有立法院直轄市縣市鄉鎮市區免選公職人員分別由行政院內政部直轄市政府縣政府村里長由鄉鎮市區公所解除其公職外由各該機關免除其公職但上列各款經該管主管機關合作者不在此縣其余透縣行條文。委員林錦等21人提案委員莊嘉斌等"},{"start":15884.662,"end":15911.705,"text":"中嘉賓等16人提案。均同行政院提案。修正動議第5條。增訂第3項。依本條申請規劃通過者,自規劃合定日期5年面授各目的事業主管及官列管,如未依通知之期限地點配合國家代表隊完成報到參加集訓或比賽,得撤銷其規劃許可。其餘同行政院提案。提案人王美惠委員等6人。"},{"start":15921.417,"end":15936.285,"text":"主席宣告,為此討論的計較,本次會議進行主條討論時,如有行政院版,本就以行政院版提案版本為基準,"},{"start":15937.505,"end":15959.523,"text":"對照委員之修法提案來進行,每條條文如有委員提案後修正動議,先分別請委員表示意見後再由行政單位一併回覆說明。我們現在進行主條討論,現在進行第二條條文討論。"},{"start":15969.742,"end":15980.012,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。五、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。"},{"start":15981.155,"end":15985.178,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16003.692,"end":16011.461,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16022.072,"end":16049.655,"text":"我想這一部分我們行政單位立場是認為說現在有一個機制已經在走當然委員關心的這個從兒童權利公約開始到落實到比如像這個兒少法的22條23條也都有相關規範那現在我們有訂了一個106我們就訂了我想早上委員也特別有提到這就是對於這個無依的這個兒少申請認定為無國籍的這個流程"},{"start":16050.339,"end":16055.463,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16071.022,"end":16076.704,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16085.799,"end":16090.684,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16107.12,"end":16135.271,"text":"對阿19人阿那沒關係阿我可以聽你說我們現在這樣處理是因為還考量了什麼什麼什麼所以我們在考量這個什麼什麼什麼的時候對照了這個人數我們認為這個比較起來還是需要顧慮到另外一方面我可能作為一個立法委員而已我沒有辦法考慮到的部分我也不知道資訊的部分沒關係你回答我這個嘛阿怎麼會跟早上是一模一樣這樣的狀況"},{"start":16136.511,"end":16161.919,"text":"發委我先把這個數據跟委員報告一下我們現在有3538人有2000多人是已經離境了現在在血型有705個就是還血型我們透過那個程序有三個月六個月這個程序以後我們有3538人嘛那已經出境有2736"},{"start":16163.766,"end":16168.108,"text":"那諧星當中我們現在還有705個,還有97個是現在社會單位安置,大概數目是這樣,倒起來就是3538人。"},{"start":16175.592,"end":16182.434,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16200.501,"end":16218.248,"text":"所以6個月以後就可以進行認定的部分?對,認定,如果假設是都沒有都找不到的話,那就變成會歸到這個,這個我們副政司這邊就會認定是無國籍的這個人嘛。那後面才會有,後面會有這個出收養的這些問題。"},{"start":16219.417,"end":16240.238,"text":"那所以700個跟這個現在的你的那個24個啊等等的這個部分是這700個扣掉的24個裡面全部都是在查詢當中都是在那6個月裡面對這個還在進行當中的705個的部分那可能是有一些部分還有包括已經已經已經找不到的這些部分"},{"start":16240.663,"end":16250.627,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。四、審查內政"},{"start":16269.155,"end":16274.138,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16292.409,"end":16294.831,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16322.731,"end":16323.575,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16327.608,"end":16337.053,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16354.463,"end":16362.426,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16380.834,"end":16383.455,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16405.694,"end":16411.018,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16433.736,"end":16450.192,"text":"主席我非常感謝內政部,抱歉市長剛剛比較覺得說怎麼跟政府說的一模一樣,這就很奇怪了。我剛剛委員解釋程序就跟我們移民署講的是一樣的。好,抱歉。那這樣的話呢,我是不是可以主席我先保留一下下。"},{"start":16451.754,"end":16456.837,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16476.95,"end":16481.792,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16496.919,"end":16505.648,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16521.941,"end":16524.403,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計4案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計4案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計4案。"},{"start":16551.801,"end":16560.126,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16579.312,"end":16586.037,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16603.609,"end":16627.317,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管"},{"start":16632.159,"end":16647.903,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16656.145,"end":16681.027,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16682.937,"end":16687.538,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":16706.502,"end":16714.209,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16732.566,"end":16741.052,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16760.553,"end":16773.581,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管"},{"start":16789.111,"end":16811.204,"text":"等人才來到臺灣從事這些高端的行業等等的。所以這邊表達支持院版的這個內容。好,謝謝我們李博弈。來,王美惠。主席,剛才我說擔心要考入。好,我請內政部來做說明。請我們內政部、我們次長來做說明。好,我先說明,等一下我再請副政司補充。"},{"start":16818.088,"end":16820.029,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、"},{"start":16834.898,"end":16839.8,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16855.126,"end":16863.932,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16886.803,"end":16889.467,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16906.361,"end":16926.288,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16939.43,"end":16940.471,"text":"提案修正第6條。"},{"start":16966.684,"end":16978.392,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16997.554,"end":17024.934,"text":"好,那我們繼續進行第7條條文討論。請各位委員換到31頁。噢,請各位委員換到31頁。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。噢。"},{"start":17027.632,"end":17041.704,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。五、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111案。"},{"start":17061.03,"end":17069.76,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":17074.844,"end":17083.527,"text":"我們要處理委員王定宇提案第49條第40頁。我們現在處理委員王定宇等提案第19條,大家放在40頁。"},{"start":17095.533,"end":17095.553,"text":"處理20條。"},{"start":17130.218,"end":17152.071,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管"},{"start":17157.634,"end":17161.937,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":17173.226,"end":17183.274,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":17202.19,"end":17203.21,"text":"我們現在來處理增訂第6條之1"},{"start":17226.866,"end":17233.248,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":17252.034,"end":17255.461,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":17260.678,"end":17268.38,"text":"三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、三、審查內政部主管預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。三、委員黃建斌等人擬具《工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案案 。四、委員林思明等人擬具《工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":2030.604,"end":2051.909,"text":"法第三十一條條文修正草案案 ﹚六．委員邱盈盈等人擬具工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案案﹚七．委員蔡宇宜等人擬具工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案案﹚八．委員馬文君等人擬具工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2055.905,"end":2074.218,"text":"法 部分條文修正草案案 ﹖十、委員楊秋英等人擬具《工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案案 ﹖十一本院臺灣民眾黨團擬具《工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案案 》宣讀完畢。"},{"start":2079.155,"end":2106.217,"text":"法本日議程所列討論事項有一百一十三年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等四案以及工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案共計有十一個版本那我們合併報告以及詢答現在依照院會交付順序請提案委員說明提案要旨因為我們現場委員人數已足是不是請問各位同仁上次會議事錄有無錯誤"},{"start":2109.11,"end":2114.791,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":2138.415,"end":2146.502,"text":"黃捷委員黃捷委員不在我們請黃建斌委員進行提案說明黃建斌委員黃啊來了嗎好那我們請黃建斌委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2164.832,"end":2168.173,"text":"工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案"},{"start":2184.617,"end":2205.018,"text":"民洋國際科技股份銀行公司在屏東廠的大火事件,造成10人死亡,110人受傷,死亡人數中有4名是我們的消防弟兄。主要原因是因為民洋公司提供的安全資料有缺失,造成現場要進去救災的消防人員在不了解"},{"start":2206.519,"end":2218.684,"text":"現況的情況之下進行救災導致發生的憾事。但想為了避免再次發生這樣的災害一次的發生,那我想將現行31條第七款及第八款一列"},{"start":2220.309,"end":2246.705,"text":"第二十八條之十四將罰款數提高至新台幣十萬元以下、五百元以下。我們希望藉由提高罰款來督促工廠落實對於危險物品的申報義務,避免未來我們消防人員在救災的時候不要再因為不確定的災害環境是否存有危險物質然後就貿然的進場來搶救,那危及到我們消防人員的生命安全。」以上是這次提案的說明。"},{"start":2249.435,"end":2266.17,"text":"謝謝黃建斌委員接下來我們請林思明委員進行提案說明林思明委員林思明委員不在我們請王美惠委員進行提案說明王美惠王美惠委員不在我們請蔡易瑜委員進行提案說明"},{"start":2266.911,"end":2281.371,"text":"蔡易瑜委員不在,我們請馬文鈞委員進行提案說明。馬文鈞委員不在,我們請鍾嘉斌委員進行提案說明。鍾嘉斌委員不在,我們請楊瓊英委員進行提案說明。"},{"start":2290.518,"end":2293.16,"text":"法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條"},{"start":2303.612,"end":2322.561,"text":"及三十九條的修正本席等十六位同仁一起提案。我們的目的也就是看到社會的現象導致人民的生命財產已經受損。所以在這樣的情況之下我們特別針對第二十八條之十四的這個部分也就是在第二項裡頭"},{"start":2324.242,"end":2344.404,"text":"那違反一第21條第二項所定的辦法當中有關申報內容、申報期限之規定或者是申報不實。我們特別修正這樣的文字,讓在執行者可以更加的明確。那第三十一條裡頭其中最重要的也就是"},{"start":2345.665,"end":2360.717,"text":"原本的條文是得連續處罰但是我們的文字修正是得按次來處罰那在第四項裡頭特別也就是針對於違反第十七條第一項第三款公告的"},{"start":2362.217,"end":2377.197,"text":"檢量生產或者是停止生產的規定,我們換句話說把它真正的、非常明確的以文字來指令清楚,讓社會大眾都能夠得到更加的安全,所以因此也希望能夠得到"},{"start":2379.219,"end":2389.585,"text":"各位同仁大家的支持因為我們看到有工廠製造加工或者是使用那麼危險物品值為善盡安全管理的責任導致發生了環保公安的事故他不僅危害了場內的勞工以及協助救災人員的生命安全更影響到作品工廠以及居民的一個權益那麼所以該類的工廠"},{"start":2406.154,"end":2416.725,"text":"現在沒有非常明確的指令所以我們希望能夠修正清楚讓在執行方面的更加的明確也敬請各位同仁大家來支持非常的感謝謝謝謝謝楊瓊英委員接下來我們請張祺凱委員代表臺灣民眾黨進行提案說明"},{"start":2432.123,"end":2453.579,"text":"謝謝主席。這次民進黨這個提案跟很多立法委員跟行政院這個出發點是一樣的因為我們看到包括民營大火案不幸的有四位消防員還有六位員工不幸過世了然後事實上這段時間裡面很多的這個大的工廠每次發生火災的時候每次死傷都非常嚴重所以這一次呢"},{"start":2454.179,"end":2475.373,"text":"我們提案裡面強調要把法環要大幅的提升我看很多委員的這個提案都有把法環提升那民眾黨的黨團提的是至少要罰十萬起跳到五千萬以下而且要採取累進的方式現在目前的法例裡面只有連續法可是呢現在很多的工廠特別是大廠"},{"start":2477.435,"end":2492.742,"text":"當成一個節約成本來看,每次發了以後他都不怕,所以我們大幅把它提升到,一方面要發到五千萬,第二個是採取累進了,就是你要他改進之後,他這一次不改,下次就累進繼續往上加,當他的這個"},{"start":2495.097,"end":2509.601,"text":"他受到這個金額是太大的時候他才會做一部分的改正。第二個我們修正的重點在31條跟39條這邊要強調的是每個月要主動的申報每個月要主動的申報那如果沒有申報沒有改進的話一樣採取累進的這個發生"},{"start":2512.282,"end":2541.434,"text":"我看了很多委員這個案子啊看起來事實上精神都是一樣我們為了消防員的這個安全為了員工的這個安全我們共同來努力那我們的法則看起來是比較高一點點重點是希望可以達到他們改進的這個手段所以請大家可以共同支持謝謝好我們謝謝張祺凱委員的提案說明現在請經濟部王部長就預算解凍等四案委員以及行政院的提案的版本來合併報告請王部長"},{"start":2549.658,"end":2553.362,"text":"主席各位委員我首先針對這個113年度預算的凍結案其中的討論事項案來做一個簡要的說明第一個在科技專案凍結一億五千萬的部分這個預算主要是來推動"},{"start":2569.556,"end":2571.917,"text":"六大核心戰略產業、五加二產業以及新的金創台灣計畫、2050淨零排放等相關政策,運用科技專案來整合國內外研發法的能量,鼓勵業界投入技術開發,"},{"start":2587.521,"end":2594.969,"text":"培育學界把這個技術導到商業化跟事業化的策略,推動前瞻的製程晶片設計,先進的通訊技術,智慧車電相關零組件,核酸藥物高階醫材,"},{"start":2602.372,"end":2606.475,"text":"產業減碳技術等等的創新研發,把這樣的研發成果轉移擴散到產業應用,幫助產業突破關鍵技術的瓶頸,促進產業的發展跟升級轉型,這個經費確實是有需要的。第二個本部的一般行政凍結一百萬的部分,這個都是本部人員的維持費、基本的行政工作、資訊的管理支出等等。"},{"start":2630.93,"end":2654.07,"text":"財務財務財務財務財務財務財務財務財務財務財務財務財務財務財"},{"start":2654.92,"end":2660.325,"text":"這個主要是辦理水資源企劃保育、水利行政業務、水資源開發維護、河川海岸"},{"start":2663.336,"end":2670.419,"text":"海水、排水、環境營造等工作計畫,涉及各國家重要基礎建設,因為都與颱風、暴雨、乾旱、改善水環境等息息相關。所以,為了緩解極端氣候帶來高風險、旱勞交替的情勢,水利署用新的觀念推動水資源的開發、維護、保育、管理、防洪工作。"},{"start":2693.427,"end":2710.055,"text":"來解決各項的水旱災的問題以及改善水環境,所以編類的經費確實需要。那能源署的一般行政凍結一百萬的部分,那這個預算主要是能源署的人員維持費、基本行政費跟資訊管理費"},{"start":2711.375,"end":2723.962,"text":"那所以包括這些文書出納採購等等都是來支援該屬的業務推動提升他的這個行政效率那所邊的經費確實是需要那敬請各位委員來支持我們的經費來各項的業務來進行推動"},{"start":2733.877,"end":2742.709,"text":"第二案關於工廠管理輔導法二十八條十四、三十一條及三十九條的修正案做以下的簡單報告。確實在去年的9月22明陽大火以後"},{"start":2748.917,"end":2752.078,"text":"造成這樣的重大的傷亡,那凸顯了業者沒有按照公服法來辦理相關危險物品的申報,跟危險物品數量配置圖的圖縮這樣的一個申報不實的情形。那為了強化工廠在危險物品的管理,那經濟部其實掩體了多項的精進作為,"},{"start":2771.991,"end":2783.883,"text":"也跨部會做一個合作。在源頭管理的部分首先經濟部跟環境部就化學雲的收索功能來進行優化而且優化之後以張斌的產業園區作為"},{"start":2788.814,"end":2797.076,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「工廠管理"},{"start":2818.762,"end":2838.467,"text":"應申報而未申報的工廠名單,在6月底前會完成相關的抽查,來確保工廠都完成申報作業。至於化學與自動溝基的程式的開發,也預計在今年的7月底前可以完成,讓各主管機關可以隨時產出一式未申報的危險物品資訊的工廠名單。"},{"start":2845.816,"end":2875.565,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案件,除了母法之外,也進行了相關執法的修正。我們修正了工廠危險物品的申報辦法,增加動態申報的機制,要求工廠負責人要及時來更新工廠裡面危險物品的變動資訊,而且來修正危險物品投保公共意外責任險的辦法,提高最低的保險金額是現行的一倍。"},{"start":2876.547,"end":2881.451,"text":"總保險金額提高到新台幣7200萬元來增加對第三人的保障。這兩個執法都已經預告完成,預計在6月1日會發布施行。接著就是本次的工廠管理母法的修正。所以這一系列的作為之後,母法的法則部分有必要來做以進行修正。"},{"start":2902.583,"end":2923.467,"text":"所以最主要是把現行的三十七條第七八款的這個部分新增為二十八條之十四那修正的重點主要是經由前面的這些行政的指導配合措施之後那你如果再不申報我們就會提高不申報的這個處罰這個罰款的額度從新台幣五萬元到五百萬元以下"},{"start":2932.025,"end":2955.88,"text":"讓主管機關可以按照個案違法的情節行使裁量的權限。第二個就是裁法跟限期改善可以來並行。現行的規定必須要先限期改善,沒有改善才能裁法。這樣的管制效果是不足的,所以修法以後可以先直接處罰,同時命他改善或申報。"},{"start":2957.166,"end":2979.352,"text":"加強此工廠依法申報的效果。」因為這個修正之後還有執法要配合修正以及地方政府的宣導這樣的配套規劃所以我們在修正第三十九條它的施行日期由行政院來定之為了讓業者來了解公服法跟執法的修法資訊我們也已經規劃了二到五月辦理全國的21場說明會目前已經辦理了七場"},{"start":2986.254,"end":2997.618,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 出許勇悅,所以本次提出的修法草案也敬請委員來審查,並且讓他儘速來通過。謝謝各位委員的支持。"},{"start":3014.721,"end":3037.938,"text":"好謝謝主席做了提案說明我們針對工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及二十九條條文修正草案提出說明目前工輔法對於工廠製造加工或使用危險物品打管這樣以上的負責人只要求投保公共意外的責任保險但此保險並未包含員工之保險保障"},{"start":3039.499,"end":3059.668,"text":"國發生重大公安意外事故,甚至造成嚴重之人員傷亡時,對員工之保障仍有不足之處。此外,雖然勞動基礎法第59條之規定,僱主對於勞工職業傷災害應付補償之責任,但仍可能無法全部填補僱主侵權行為之賠償責任。"},{"start":3061.889,"end":3085.241,"text":"各況許多僱主的負責人也因公安意外而導致財務的破產。因此本席提案需強制要求僱主或工廠負責人投保僱主意外責任保險來協補對受僱員工之災害賠償,且需依現行公共意外責任保險最低保險金額規定投保僱主意外責任險。"},{"start":3086.374,"end":3104.995,"text":"此外應同公共意外責任之罰款規定若未投保僱主意外責任險應採取罰還並提高罰還之金額,除確保職場員工之保障亦可促進工廠安全管理之落實。敬請各位委員支持以上謝謝"},{"start":3108.592,"end":3112.234,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查一、二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":3140.087,"end":3164.24,"text":"同樣公安本席著重在高雄市的公安樂點區在我林園區中游事故不斷民意怨聲連連市卿更新再造居民引領侵犯在開頭之前要跟部長最後的勉勵您是少數能夠擔任將近四年的政務官"},{"start":3164.94,"end":3190.872,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條文修正草案案 案件的資深價值在哪裡?就是你對於事情的釐清,能夠接地氣,而且快速的了解掌握原委。第二個,也因為你資深,所以能夠快速的決策。好,我們來看您的價值有沒有發揮。針對高雄鄉親對新世紀的期盼,以及在核定前以及即使核定後,"},{"start":3192.032,"end":3218.914,"text":"在短期的改善計劃跟配套措施以及本席從頭到尾希望在落實智慧化核心管理的主張到底做到什麼程度呢以及林園區真的是最可憐的一群叫做扇尾地區土地遭受污染的部分你們的進度又是如何本席有具體的要求對於新世經這件事情"},{"start":3219.895,"end":3245.555,"text":"中郵的公安事件大概全臺灣也少數有這樣的區域從三月到四月初連環五報三月十號新四清三月十六號還是新四清三月十九號連一個太陽人電器設備也能夠發生這個火焰三月二十五號的新三清"},{"start":3246.977,"end":3263.73,"text":"新三清剛才3月10號3月25都是新三清4月10號就是清本期在2月27號總質詢後請陳建仁院長能夠加速在520前能夠核定新四清再造不知道目前進度了如何呢部長您請說"},{"start":3266.09,"end":3284.278,"text":"謝謝委員關心那這個確實我們已經在送到院裡面來審查那經濟部是支持中友來更新這個新事情你們在去年7月27號就送行政院了所以行政院你也在我總諮詢你也在場那現在到底進度怎麼樣國發會過了沒"},{"start":3289.394,"end":3297.31,"text":"國防會這邊還在審查當中。部長你要加油了已經通過了現在應該是行政院院本部要排版定案了"},{"start":3299.452,"end":3302.493,"text":"二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案 案 案 案 案 案"},{"start":3326.3,"end":3340.152,"text":"但是呢到底這件事情你們到底要不要核定呢?重點是這個東西啊你知道從這個從幾年已經從十多不只十多年前了這個規劃案上一版是民國幾年的"},{"start":3341.038,"end":3361.85,"text":"部長,不過是我上任之後,那我有對行政界這麼規劃。對,之後有規劃,有做相關的修正。然後從去年7月27號經濟部回到行政院,到現在也快一年了,現在進入到五月了,這叫做行政效率嗎?這就是你經濟部真的對於石化產業的用心嗎?"},{"start":3363.37,"end":3369.596,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":3387.389,"end":3406.352,"text":"所以整個臺灣的中下游的這個石化業臺塑的部分他自己生產自營供應他的集團除了臺塑之外全部都靠中游現在的新三青、丙西、乙西、舊四青、乙西全部在提供"},{"start":3407.173,"end":3422.545,"text":"那你現在如何讓他運作滿足業者的需求現在的生產效能低也就算了公安黃安的不斷這是你經濟部口口聲聲要發展高科技產業有的態度嗎"},{"start":3423.766,"end":3452.158,"text":"叫做要ESG嗎?叫做永續經營嗎?公安置之不顧嗎?所以你的階段性公安黃安的計畫是什麼?本席再次為了今天的質詢4月8號你們的回覆你看中遊怎麼回就這樣一頁後面附件說明我希望他針對公安新四清的這個新三清的公安能夠比照新舊四清更新後的智慧化的管理"},{"start":3452.978,"end":3473.987,"text":"有提出嗎?沒有啊!你什麼叫做提出來?你我都清楚啊!如果對我本席來講你沒有逐年編列的預算以及逐年執行的項目那等於叫做空話!所以這一個叫做空話!什麼叫做新三清的智慧化?你們這一份叫做空話!那怎麼叫做舊四清的更新?也是空話!也沒進度!"},{"start":3481.383,"end":3493.711,"text":"所以你們只會救火對於一個已經執政快進入邁入第三次的執政的對於部長已經是第四屆的快要進入四年的部長為何決策上這麼的怠惰對全台灣的石化產業的一個提升你們心放在哪裡"},{"start":3501.411,"end":3503.152,"text":"三月到四月對每個星期每個月都篩開然後就造成的是五環報"},{"start":3520.1,"end":3542.298,"text":"然後再來在這個中郵這邊提出來的這張表是你們給行政院的救世親更新的一個智慧智能管理所以到底你的新三親如果也比照救世親更新的這樣的智慧管理的話那你的SOP現在是的規範是到底出了什麼問題"},{"start":3543.479,"end":3550.224,"text":"是你的這個流程有問題還是執行上的哪一個環節出了問題還是新三期設備老化了這是兩百七十幾萬的高雄市民的財產生命安全欸我想中友的這個場區的安全是第一那我們現在也在跟中友討論怎麼樣做更好的技術特別現在有很多的AI技術來事先預防管理的這個部分部長那我們也叫中友要積極來導入"},{"start":3571.741,"end":3590.14,"text":"把預算逐年執行的項目跟預算編出來吧好不好謝謝再來上委地區這也請部長下去會刊了這這個圖我們再恢復一下你的記憶在右邊叫做高屏溪在左下這叫臨源大牌"},{"start":3590.86,"end":3616.623,"text":"上面呢整個北部的地方都叫林園工業區所以林園工業區的最南端的這塊土地11公頃他剛好夾在林園大牌跟高屏溪出口那他為什麼要提出來呢因為在民國77年也就1988年的時候中油林園廠就上面的工業區油管破裂所漏出來的油沿著左邊的林園大牌"},{"start":3618.277,"end":3632.33,"text":"然後呢就是污染的土地水質遭到破壞這邊做漁民的養殖業完全不能養殖做農他是農地農用他也不能種民侵害的人嚴重侵害民眾的生命財產跟工作權"},{"start":3634.452,"end":3645.542,"text":"所以在這一個段落叫做林園區中善嶺17號這樣11公頃的土地因早期林園工業區沿著高平溪規劃開發加上林園大排的開花"},{"start":3649.766,"end":3671.474,"text":"這也是因應你們政府的政策人民沒有希望要被開挖的那你們竟然要開大牌又要開工業去導致高平溪出口處還獨留一塊農業用地這個山面臨海又礙於農地農業造成地主在地面上遭遇極大的困難土地及水源遭受嚴重的污染無法從事農業使用政府應該協助"},{"start":3673.415,"end":3693.663,"text":"這個土地的活化或者導入工業區內而不是讓土地荒廢。」這個意思是什麼?你工業區來你政府來開發工業區把垃圾倒了倒在人家的土地上好你總是沒說道歉也就算了你總是要有社會企業責任吧"},{"start":3695.114,"end":3700.061,"text":"第11屆第12會期經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案"},{"start":3711.698,"end":3735.216,"text":"然後中遊的理由說我為什麼不比照本席都要求這不是特例喔在林園的五福里十三到十七林最靠近中遊的地方我們都有辦法花了九年的時間來把它做徵收已經完成了居民現在也都在進行當都幾乎到收尾的階段這個就只比照辦理而已那為什麼你的決策會這麼慢呢"},{"start":3737.097,"end":3744.561,"text":"為什麼對事情的了解會這麼的緩慢呢?這我本席非常的質疑。是工業去來污染土地的欸。部長您講個話吧。"},{"start":3748.591,"end":3771.69,"text":"謝謝委員 委員一直很關心這一塊土地的部分那我最近也會再來跟同仁來召開相關的會議部長讓您知道 如果你決策後大概會多久可能會完成 不一定會完成喔因為出來就是都是都市計畫的問題了你知道上次的五福利花了九年 核定之後你們拍板電所以現在的署長我非常感謝他連錦章連署長真的沒有他"},{"start":3774.813,"end":3784.421,"text":"我林園工業區最污染的地段五福里十三到十七你真的不可能他幫我想方法真的我很感謝現在連緊張連酸我真的三聲的真的感謝"},{"start":3785.885,"end":3797.493,"text":"那這個也是一樣百分百汙染的東西啊為什麼不趕快決策呢你一定要讓我再來質詢為什麼作為執政黨你不能讓我私下帶你去看也私下的跟你溝通了你還是要讓我在這邊質詢你呢公開的讓來讓來讓人民來檢驗你呢好以上謝謝呃謝謝代化委員的資訊謝謝謝謝部長謝謝我們現在請邱益銀交委質詢"},{"start":3818.497,"end":3821.818,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":3844.222,"end":3865.698,"text":"和相挺之意。」我記得上個禮拜其實我也特別提到在這樣的地震不斷的時候其實台電的同仁都是在第一線挺進我昨天看到這張照片其實蠻感動的昨天其實在花蓮還是餘震不斷那後面您看得很清楚後面就是富凱大飯店已經要"},{"start":3866.298,"end":3880.666,"text":"快倒的富凱大飯店,結果我們台電的很多的同仁第一時間就在要傾倒的大飯店前面在搶修這些電力。所以如果這樣子還要持續不斷的再去罵他們的話,我覺得"},{"start":3881.607,"end":3890.553,"text":"人性上可能會有一點缺失不過就這個需量競價的機制我認為經濟部跟台電其實有必要再向社會大眾進行更詳細的說明這不是現在才有的不是民進黨政府發明的這是1979年開始就已經實施而且國際上也都是用這樣的一個方式在進行所以我覺得可能還是要請部長您跟台電在就這一方面"},{"start":3911.668,"end":3913.43,"text":"再跟國人進行更詳細的說明。」"},{"start":3932.685,"end":3962.265,"text":"然後這個網友去把最近的停電的報導的次數把它做成一張圖的話我們會看到會是一個很大的一個交叉的X形從2012年的將近兩萬多次的停電到2023年的差不多五萬次的這樣的一個停電其實停電的次數是大幅下降但是被報導的次數是完全不成正比啊"},{"start":3962.725,"end":3990.069,"text":"我覺得還是要替台電的同仁感到相當的委屈那部長這個很多人說不是台電的總經理要下台是部長您要下台其實你這幾年的努力我們大家也都看在眼裡我想還是要給部長一些加油跟鼓勵那接下來我想這個我們還是要提到我們今天要處理的這個法案我們今天處理工廠輔導法這主要原因是因為前一陣子的這個民洋的大火"},{"start":3990.649,"end":4009.565,"text":"特殊部長昨天晚上昨天晚上在我的家鄉屏東的萬丹就出現了一家知名的電氣廠的工廠大火那我們去查了一下齁這個工廠現在他的合法登記是在高雄市在萬丹的這個地方看起來應該是倉儲對不對"},{"start":4012.025,"end":4012.525,"text":"法條文裏頭"},{"start":4039.176,"end":4061.02,"text":"其實我們並沒有把倉儲納入條文這也是我們在擔憂的地方大家園他有完成了特登的登記那他的這個倉儲是不是也完成了特登的登記有嗎他的這個倉儲也完成了特登的登記他這個地址都有特登的登記可是他這個倉儲看起來應該是在農地裡頭吧"},{"start":4064.907,"end":4085.443,"text":"所以才會是特登對早期的特登倉儲可以完成已在農地裡頭完成特登有兩個問題我要請教的一個我們內門啊內門的中破塞因為內門也都是農地內門的中破塞他的外匯的這一些器具餐桌椅"},{"start":4086.894,"end":4096.546,"text":"他蓋了一個廠房蓋了一個倉庫可是他的特登申請不下來因為農業部說農地上面只能做農地使用"},{"start":4097.847,"end":4120.781,"text":"工業局經濟部說這個倉儲不在我的工輔法的輔導範圍之內倉儲不需要去申請所以變成他完全沒有辦法去申請合法的登記那我就不知道大家原是用什麼樣的方式可以在農地上面去申請他的倉儲可以成為合法的登記這是第一個第二個像這樣子的倉儲"},{"start":4122.162,"end":4149.852,"text":"如果他不需要特別申請的話沒有納入我們原來的管理辦法遇到這樣子的大火的時候我們該怎麼處理?未來我們有什麼樣的管理機制嗎?來部長兩個齁一個就是倉儲的部分那因為沒有辦法符合工廠輔導法就是製造業的這個標準我們在工服法裡面有講製造業要有多少馬力以上的才會符合所以要符合這個標準"},{"start":4150.772,"end":4154.834,"text":"才會是公務法納管的對象。」這是第一個。第二個,在之前我們跨部會也有在討論說倉儲沒有人管。他如果發生這些公安意外怎麼辦?結果跨部會來討論的結果就是說倉儲的部分因為他有的會在特定地區有的會屬於內政部管有的會是屬於特定地區管"},{"start":4178.504,"end":4186.969,"text":"三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、三十一條之十五、"},{"start":4196.155,"end":4213.714,"text":"競技部也可以配合內政部的部分來做相關的這個協助讓他們符合相關的這個消防的法規的需求。」所以部長其實您這樣的說明還是感覺上倉儲還是屬在一個沒有沒有一個明確的主管機關管理的沒有特別對倉儲來定那你比如說像這樣子的"},{"start":4218.298,"end":4244.271,"text":"這個昨天晚上發生大火的這樣的一個工廠到底他的消防設備合不合格那他已經完成的納管登記嘛所以照理講他應該就是屬於經濟部管的嘛對他是他有特等所以是經濟部管家那經濟部對於這樣子的一個管理上面就是他的整個消防整個公共安全的部分是不是也都完全合乎你們的這些規定"},{"start":4245.974,"end":4270.139,"text":"這個我們會都會有這個相關的檢查。我想可能因為昨天晚上才發生大火然後很多事情都還是需要釐清但是就這個部分我覺得倉儲納管的這個部分我其實還是希望經濟部能夠跟一些主管單位其實你說像農地工廠你們很多是要跟農業部協調的我剛剛提到的像我內門很多的中破塞他們就遇到這樣的一個問題"},{"start":4271.499,"end":4298.337,"text":"他跟農業部申請也不行跟經濟部申請也不行變成他的那一些廚具煮東西的那個外匯的鍋具餐桌椅等等完全沒有辦法去設立他連搭個鐵皮屋蓋個倉庫也不知道他應該要去跟誰申請也不知道誰要來管他願意被管啊只要你們能夠讓他合法申請可是部長剛剛我聽您的這樣的回答看起來"},{"start":4299.558,"end":4326.578,"text":"還是沒有人可以去管他的所以這個部分我覺得可能還是需要有一些跨部會的相關的這一些合作然後把倉儲這個事情是不是也能夠納入你的工廠輔導法如果他不是屬於製造業的話那我覺得倉儲該歸在哪裡去管該怎麼管我認為還是應該要訂定一套管理辦法出來好不好再跟委員說明謝謝"},{"start":4329.298,"end":4344.218,"text":"三年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":4346.798,"end":4358.864,"text":"部長這幾天您的時尚形象引起很多的討論但是我覺得這對我們女性從政人員是一個非常大的鼓勵就是說不只專業還可以美麗新舊內閣即將交接部長為國陸立從功40年"},{"start":4367.548,"end":4386.095,"text":"經濟部長顯然應該不會是您的終點。現在很多報導都在分析您的下一步,包括政委甚至中油、台電、中鋼的董作都被討論。如果部長未來被邀請去擔任這三大國營事業的董作,請問部長有沒有意願?」"},{"start":4387.405,"end":4390.108,"text":"我沒有這個接受這樣的訊息我想也不適合對那再請問部長請問一下中油台電中鋼這三大國營企業的董作未來會全部替換嗎"},{"start":4402.918,"end":4418.445,"text":"這個要由新的政府來決定所以您都還沒有耳聞到目前為止都沒有耳聞那您會不會同意說這三大國營企業的動作都應該是專業凌駕政治考量呢?"},{"start":4419.305,"end":4428.113,"text":"一定會用專業來考量,千萬不能夠用政治考量或者是用酬庸來超越專業的考量。」"},{"start":4434.659,"end":4459.489,"text":"就是本席想要問4月20日臺電發了一張新聞,內文寫著說不該把臺電作為政治工房的工具,少數人滑著3C產品卻對臺電酸言酸語,對臺電人不公平。那其實我也知道說臺電的基層人員非常辛苦,這個本席完全都認同也完全支持說臺電的確是非常努力。"},{"start":4459.969,"end":4474.755,"text":"但是台電總經理王耀廷為此請辭。今天台電沒有來,但我要請問部長,作為台電的主管機關,你認為台電是政策決策者還是政策執行者?」"},{"start":4477.117,"end":4501.28,"text":"臺電當然是政策的執行者是所以我們都知道臺電雖然負責全國的供電但他只是供電政策的執行單位那麼請問部長您覺得經濟部是臺灣供電政策的決策單位嗎我們當然是決策的其中一環是其中一環所以你也不是決策者"},{"start":4502.22,"end":4513.084,"text":"負責整個電力的部分當然會有到整個院裡面會有整個國家的需求其實我覺得部長你是針對這件事情你是相當誠實就是您只是決策的一環因為我認為真正的決策單位甚至連經濟部都不是現在臺灣的"},{"start":4523.308,"end":4535.476,"text":"政策、能源政策都是為了服膺於民進黨的非核黨綱。民進黨的行動黨綱第六十四條就寫得很清楚反對新設核能發電機組限期關閉現有的核電廠"},{"start":4540.379,"end":4559.873,"text":"那這個指導方向的源頭代表著臺電的大量虧損全民漲電價全民買單都是因為民進黨的非核檔綱您同不同意我不同意齁 這個我們其實澄清過非常多次那這個確實是惡霧戰爭之後的國際的能力價值高級為了非核檔綱廢棄了"},{"start":4566.178,"end":4578.346,"text":"便宜的核能煤炭又怕被批評製造溫室氣體所以只好選擇天然氣但是天然氣價格高昂儲存不易更容易受到這個國際局勢的這個變動波動這就剛才部長所講的"},{"start":4583.57,"end":4585.931,"text":"所以二五戰爭爆發之後天然氣價格大漲我們台灣的這個發電成本也漲了好幾倍所以過去這段時間來社會上的批評聲音都是針對能源政策現在台灣的能源政策是政治凌駕專業的結果"},{"start":4601.317,"end":4617.902,"text":"逆勢而為當然使得許多文官都會心寒而離開啊。」所以我認為這個王耀廷的請辭雖然表面上是說不忍台電被批評但部長你清楚王耀廷也很清楚如果錯誤的能源政策不由所改動的話"},{"start":4618.942,"end":4641.485,"text":"再換一百個總經理也沒有用啊,再換部長也沒有用啊,王耀廷他是從基層做起的文官,他的請辭真正的意涵就是在向即將上任的賴總統跟卓院長表達非常明確的訊息,就是如果再不改正能源政策,台電也不願意再為民進黨背這個黑鍋。"},{"start":4642.786,"end":4647.512,"text":"這才是王耀廷請辭的真正意涵,不曉得我們的部長認不認同?完全不是,這個他已經總經理也說得非常清楚那因為大家沒有辦法就事論事對於地震之後的機組故障以及相關的壞掉的這個部分"},{"start":4662.188,"end":4663.149,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4683.809,"end":4686.312,"text":"他說賴清德應該重新檢討非核政策。」這個你同意嗎?我想各個意見我們都尊重。那我想新的政府我們對我們現在的這個臺灣的這個相關的供電的問題"},{"start":4700.231,"end":4728.084,"text":"振頓的智庫的全球臺灣研究中心研究員﹖就是﹖呃這個﹖Jordan Margulis﹖他也分析臺灣的核能政策文章﹖他就說因為半導體的發展臺灣是亞洲人均耗電最高的地區但臺灣的電力供應顯然並沒有跟上腳步民進黨極力推的這個非核家園導致核電從2011年四百﹐四十二百萬瓦到2022年的"},{"start":4729.685,"end":4753.81,"text":"二十四百萬瓦。」就是雖然這個2018的公投大家都希望說核電以核養綠但是蔡英文總統跟賴清德仍然持續要推動這個非核政策那再生能源到現在也遙遙無期所以現在連最掌核最得利的德國到去年他已經完全"},{"start":4754.79,"end":4768.485,"text":"無核化了現在也開始討論要重啟核電那我記得上一次問部長7月開始核三就要準備退役當時部長回答說會如期退役那經過這段時間我同樣的問題問部長不曉得您現在的答案為何"},{"start":4774.811,"end":4779.434,"text":"我想核電要延續那委員也很清楚那第一個這個要能夠這個科學的討論第二個核能的安全第三個相關的現在的規定核電這個運轉40年按照現在的規定它就是要停止所以它是有討論空間的嗎還有核後端的核廢的處理我想這個都需要台灣社會的共識"},{"start":4801.245,"end":4815.411,"text":"專業討論,包括合術董事長童子賢,他同時也是民進黨新境界文教基金會的副董事長,而董事長就是賴清德總統。他近日發表演講的時候提到缺點,他說他反核三十年,"},{"start":4815.871,"end":4840.868,"text":"但是想法改變了他認為地球暖化才是公敵何能不是所以他改變了三十年來的反核立場一個反核三十年的人想法都會改變國際上的潮流也興起重啟核能這一點希望經濟部一定要用專業超越這個政治考量因為民進黨的政策也是會轉彎的阿2016年前民進黨也反對萊豬阿2020年"},{"start":4846.011,"end":4848.254,"text":"開板開放來租,包括2015年反對開放輔導食品進口,2022年也是開放了輔導食品進口,包括說2005年那時候的不分區立委蔡英文,她就說"},{"start":4861.67,"end":4874.138,"text":"台灣必須靠電能帶動經濟,核四一定要興建,結果2011年蔡英文主席又重提非核家園,所以其實討論的空間是有的,這一點部長同意嗎?"},{"start":4891.71,"end":4913.522,"text":"祝福部長。謝謝張家俊委員的發言。接下來我們請鄭天才委員發言。主席、貴委、有請部長。來請王部長。"},{"start":4922.808,"end":4948.589,"text":"今天我們審查工廠管理輔導法這個在去年九月二十二號民陽大火造成十人死亡一百一十一人受傷這一個非常嚴重的然後這個屏東大火永宵四個人殉職七個人受傷"},{"start":4952.032,"end":4976.385,"text":"當時一百一十二年九月二十七號當時是在內政委員會然後這個經濟部也有提書面報告這裡面特別提到這個依據工廠管理輔導法二十一條規定危險物品要申報但是沒有申報就是這個民養大火這個部分也提到這個相關的這些"},{"start":4977.925,"end":5003.348,"text":"處方數量超過消防法第十五條的規定。」當時內政部的報告也提到,屏東縣政府消防及衛列管為公共危險物品的長手,這是當時的一個民營公司大火所造成的非常大的悲劇。"},{"start":5005.148,"end":5023.537,"text":"好,我們看今天這個經濟部的報告裏面提到強化沿途管制。你們特別跟這個經濟部與環境部強化優化化學與溝基搜尋功能。"},{"start":5025.195,"end":5046.571,"text":"這個光篩選出的章兵產業延期疑似因申報而未申報工廠145家名單查報有65家廠商吸補申報。」所以這個部分光一個章兵產業延期那當然你的報告沒有提到其他的是不是都OK都沒有問題"},{"start":5048.291,"end":5055.237,"text":"草案延期也不是只有在這裏而且上次發生的這個大火"},{"start":5056.658,"end":5081.436,"text":"是在南部的科學研區裡面所以這個部科學產業研區裡面所以這個數字是不是有其他的都沒有問題還是為什麼只提到這個因為我們是先把張斌做示範趕快來做那我們也有報告也有提到我們其實是會全國性來辦這個事情那這個會到六月底來抽查完成"},{"start":5082.136,"end":5084.597,"text":"管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5110.494,"end":5134.621,"text":"法現行條文及行政院版所提的條文,工廠有消費情形之一者,由主管機關工廠負責人新台幣五萬元以上,五百萬元以下。」這個差距很大,五萬到五百萬是相當大的差距,而且增加很多很多很多,這個部分"},{"start":5137.253,"end":5156.918,"text":"這九案就是沒有申報的違反第二十一條第一項規定為依期限申報危險物品的這個未來在執行的執行的時候到底要五萬還是十萬還是一百萬還是兩百萬還是五百萬你們會根據什麼"},{"start":5157.981,"end":5159.242,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查．一、處理或審查．一、處理或審查．一、處理或審查"},{"start":5188.328,"end":5211.71,"text":"一個授權的條款,這個是一個考量。另外就是說在這條文裡面直接就講說依其管制的數量或是管制的種類來去。這起碼有一個比較明確的在法律的條文裡面數量或是種類"},{"start":5213.134,"end":5217.057,"text":"中央主管機關科學工業延期、加工出口期、自由貿易港期、農業科技延期。"},{"start":5241.133,"end":5267.996,"text":"法第二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。如何去落實這很重要因為現在剛才講的名陽道或是張斌你剛你們已經查了這些之所以因為他是跟你經濟部申請中央主管機關申請申請我通過了就走了他會不會去想到這個"},{"start":5269.565,"end":5298.197,"text":"還要跟地方政府去申報這些東西。」所以這個就是這個畢竟這些申請工廠設立登記的都並不是法律的專業的人每一條條文都看完了我不知道可能很多都沒有了他可能就按照那個申請管理申請工廠登記的那個表格就填一填填填所以那個部分"},{"start":5299.943,"end":5305.306,"text":"凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等22條條文修正草案 。"},{"start":5329.315,"end":5329.736,"text":"負責任負責任負責任負責任"},{"start":5345.976,"end":5349.981,"text":"像科技產業園區裡面的這個資訊系統那所以這個系統是互通的那另外就是說我們最近也辦非常出名會就像委員講的我們也會跟大家講說這個的申報SOP是怎麼樣那跟誰申報那另外也會透過舊的原來工業區的各個"},{"start":5366.4,"end":5393.927,"text":"區的承辦同仁的要跟區內的廠商說明說你怎麼申報那應該向誰申報相關的系統都讓他非常簡便的可以瞭解是所以這個部分很重要有對這個其實比法則還重要尤其好接下來就是下面這個最後一項直轄市縣市主管應將第一項工廠資料建檔列管並轉資有關機關是我上次在"},{"start":5395.226,"end":5418.042,"text":"內政委員會去年質詢的時候就要求有關機關就要給消防機關消防機關不是到了現場才知道危險物品的狀況平常就要知道一發生刺激的時候就知道很清楚"},{"start":5419.398,"end":5439.79,"text":"所以這個部分是沒有錯那這個部分除了這個原來申報系統之外那就是環境部有個化學雲這個系統那這個化學雲怎麼讓消防人員可以清楚知道這個工廠有沒有危險的所以我們之前的幾個月呢就是在做這個事情好對加油是是好謝謝鄭天才委員接下來我們請陳廷飛委員發言"},{"start":5459.249,"end":5461.383,"text":"二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5468.3,"end":5470.061,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5497.958,"end":5500.74,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案 案"},{"start":5527.737,"end":5552.82,"text":"基本上是有預算的限制不是所謂的誰申請都OK也有條件的限制他必須要到達某一個門檻他才能夠得到所謂政府的協助補助但是如果他連諮詢都不知道他連提都沒辦法提他就會覺得他好像是孤兒一樣所以"},{"start":5553.54,"end":5555.522,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":5578.918,"end":5579.098,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5609.418,"end":5613.6,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案件事項,並擬具工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案件事項,並擬具"},{"start":5634.29,"end":5654.731,"text":"從住宅一直移到我們現在所謂的小型開發的民間工業區然後後面才有大型的工業區那才有所謂工業局當時候親自下去開發的我們屬於經濟部的工業區現在是產業園區所以其實它都有一個嚴格跟發展"},{"start":5655.572,"end":5657.693,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案 。"},{"start":5684.943,"end":5711.718,"text":"財團法人或法人可以幫助他但當他得不到這些訊息他就沒有辦法所以我覺得這個部分除了還有智能化這也是全智動化智能化這都要補我們未來在人力不足的地方那也是跟我們所有的所謂的世界各個國家接軌很重要的一個機制所以我真的拜託部長"},{"start":5713.206,"end":5715.047,"text":"二、審查．一）行政院函請審查．一）工廠管理輔導"},{"start":5731.96,"end":5758.839,"text":"所以這個部分拜託所以應該真的就像部長講的你應該很驚訝居然有那麼多民間的小型工業區而且是台南特別多真的但是他們是一直被覺得是不是被經濟不忽略而已也是被台南市政府而且我覺得我們這個部分我也跟同仁討論我們是不是跟台南市政府來密切來合作那怎麼樣在這些廠商的資訊"},{"start":5760.72,"end":5762.201,"text":"二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5786.463,"end":5799.88,"text":"但你怎麼讓他感覺真的是如此而不是你改組歸你改組然後我地方感受不到這是非常可惜的而且我們這一次居然放了一個台南分局在台南"},{"start":5801.5,"end":5828.248,"text":"過去北、中、南,南一定在高雄可是這次是四個分局台南特別放了一個分局所以表示我們對於台南的產業在我們這樣子陸續的呼喚陸續的拜託而且持續的關注跟這樣的一個要求終於讓你們聽到了聲音也設了一個分局那我們更希望在這個分局真正發揮我們的效果"},{"start":5828.968,"end":5832.69,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5855.444,"end":5856.225,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":5882.321,"end":5897.635,"text":"其實部長各縣市的特登的一些審查標準真的非常的不一致有些很寬鬆有些是非常的嚴峻那我們不知道這個標準到底要怎麼定啊"},{"start":5899.462,"end":5904.143,"text":"這大概是怎麼樣去處理啊?這個部分因為要特登的審查這個很多樣那確實我們也覺得對各縣市的審查一致標準一致是很重要所以第一個我們會訂一些指引第二個我們是非常密集把各縣市找來做相關的會商那就是因為這樣也看到各縣市有的通過比較高有的通過非常低"},{"start":5929.269,"end":5952.867,"text":"就這樣的情形去討論出裡面不一致的大概是哪種類型,讓他們來參考。我想這個經濟部是責無旁貸。可是問題是部長,現在很多案子都被退掉了。就是說他沒有補了改善計畫,因為也沒有辦法補啊。因為有些政府他比較嚴峻,所以他直接把它退掉。"},{"start":5954.281,"end":5955.723,"text":"一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、處理或審查"},{"start":5969.582,"end":5971.003,"text":"管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5990.279,"end":6010.066,"text":"副部長,然後另外一個部分是有些沒有送改善計畫都被推薦解除納管,那請問他下一步怎麼辦?重點是你現在各縣市的狀況不一樣,有些這個他在別的縣市是OK的,在這裡他是被解除納管,那下一步呢?"},{"start":6011.066,"end":6013.429,"text":"三年到現在都要送改善計畫,沒有送改善計畫你就要被推薦了。」"},{"start":6037.409,"end":6046.62,"text":"被退了怎麼辦?然後各縣市的狀況不一,就會造成很大的動盪。」再拜託一下,謝謝。好,謝謝陳亭飛委員。接下來我們請張祺凱委員發言。"},{"start":6072.245,"end":6097.748,"text":"來請阿寶定來請王部長好我很好是寶定很高掌你們感受到現在民怨蠻深的4月1號漲完電價之後最近又有一些停電民眾現在是受苦又受氣可是我現在先提醒一個點我怎麼會看到經濟部的臉書上面跟我們的民眾對幹呢"},{"start":6100.108,"end":6124.453,"text":"實際我們連民眾連滑手機打個鍵盤使用3C產品都不行被酸說什麼是酸言酸語啊跟民眾對幹嗎我們打個電腦滑個手機都不行嗎我想主要是希望大家能夠瞭解跟體諒台電在地震過後造成的這些損傷來修復其實台電是用現在民眾是在控理的你有發現這個這個跳電或者停電跟民眾打這個"},{"start":6128.194,"end":6128.995,"text":"划手機用剩餘代理有什麼關係?」"},{"start":6144.025,"end":6156.995,"text":"的努力尤其是基層的這個努力我們是肯定的沒有人罵臺電的基層喔現在是你們的臉書是小編嗎還是你們經濟部的態度為什麼要跟民眾對幹呢但是但是滑個手機都要被你們酸言酸語但是現在最重要的部長最重要的一般的民眾打打手機滑滑手機打鍵盤會造成停電跳電嗎你們說他們是酸言酸語我們是希望大家能夠體諒這樣臺電的因為緊急把這個電修復的這個辛苦不要說成是缺電"},{"start":6173.988,"end":6202.648,"text":"來,寶弟,我們來看你的台電的莊經理感性的這個發言。我看,我不知道你有否被感動到。他裡面引述了一個,這幾天一直在瘋傳的一個投書。他說,這幾年啊,停電的次數是減半的,可是報導多了一倍。可是很多民眾跟我反映啊,甚至打電話進來抗議這個投書跟內容。因為我們感受就是,前幾年一直在大停電啊,停的時間更長,次數是不是更多的啊。所以本期就上了"},{"start":6203.8,"end":6232.617,"text":"台電的官網去看,我怕誤會人喔,我想說會不會是我們問政問出問題來了。欸?看一下本來這個數據看起來沒有錯啊,若從前面四年102到105對照蔡英文當選之後的這幾年,從這個趨勢看起來好像有進步喔。這個就是這個投書的基礎,包括我不要去查人民經濟部自己台電都發了說你們確實是有進步,可是呢看一下真正的真相,我問你一下。你看下一張這個真相。"},{"start":6234.687,"end":6260.06,"text":"我問你一下剛剛看的那張圖現在我把它用紅框把它框下來你現在比較的只有像106年你用停電的時間16.89分鐘去跟前面比下面為什麼有一個32.57分鐘這到底什麼事情這東西為什麼要單獨出來為什麼那個東西沒有算進去呢我重複一次"},{"start":6261.121,"end":6268.673,"text":"你用停電16.89分鐘去跟前面算那你又註明一個32.57你怎麼沒有算進去呢?這是什麼粉飾太平嗎?認知作戰嗎?欺騙民眾嗎?"},{"start":6278.717,"end":6283.719,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21案"},{"start":6299.672,"end":6324.024,"text":"為何移花接木把它移走啦?不是移花接木啦,這個我們也都有做這樣的說明嘛,所以委員看到的這裡我們也都有做加注的說明。博定,您把它移到下面寫了三個說明嘛,那一般的民眾清楚,因為這個事情太重要了。你們現在一直把這個我紅色框框的東西把它移走了,然後你們從基準點不對的狀況之下,"},{"start":6325.365,"end":6350.274,"text":"本市太平一直講說你們是停電的時間是往下降的我現在很清楚跟你講用106年為基準來看那時候有815的大停電對不對那時候那一年每戶的停電時間是多少32.57是不是這樣那你為什麼要把它移走呢好那我們看110年發生了兩次大停電513大停電跟517大停電對不對"},{"start":6351.667,"end":6375.172,"text":"他停電的時間多少?四十三分點五十一秒。您把時間內沒有算進去啊!到了一百一十年這個更離譜了啊!三零三大停電欸!停七十一分鐘欸!一點鐘又一點鐘半欸!你們竟然會把這三個東西都移出,三個大停電時間都移出去!我要問你這不只是粉飾太平,讓我看一下,我問一個最簡單的"},{"start":6376.272,"end":6392.494,"text":"大停電就不算停電是不是?您的標準是這樣嗎?跟委員報告我們既然這樣寫就是有特別說明這兩個不同但是這不叫粉絲派我們也如實呈現了那這個我們也是參考其他國家的這種做法也就是說這種"},{"start":6394.616,"end":6405.103,"text":"這個像815這種中有的這個嚴重的事故造成這個氣勁不來等等,那這個的時間確實是很久沒有錯,可是⋯⋯他們不是移除,我們是分別來算計,那所謂的⋯⋯你明明有三個"},{"start":6419.352,"end":6439.13,"text":"三、一百零六年、一百一十年及一百一十一年有四次的這個大停電時間都是很長的你把它移走了移走了完之後你拿了一個不對的一個基準點然後你說你們這幾年停電的時間都是往下掉的那你把它實際的狀況把它加上去明明就是增加嘛因為這一個電力的維護電網跟設備的維護部長我們讓民眾知道第一個把它移走這個到底對不對"},{"start":6445.814,"end":6446.154,"text":"二、審查：一）行政院函請審議"},{"start":6458.331,"end":6484.285,"text":"甚至不要變成是只有您的總經理要請辭的時候,他講說他覺得感慨,我都不知道他為什麼要感慨啊。他以為那個瘋傳的那個基準點是不錯的,是不對的,他明明知道這東西是不對的,他也感慨。因為我們是告訴大家說,原來從每年的兩萬多次到去年的六千多次,台電確實非常努力來解決這些各地的電網的這些事故等等的部分。"},{"start":6484.665,"end":6505.804,"text":"對啦,保定,您現在有聯絡的,我現在是跟你講的,你煮這四個月的大停電把它算進去,你的平均的這個停電時間是增加的。第二個,你停電的次數也是增加的。我還幫你做了一個統計,你先看,你把它加上去之後,加上去之後,每次加上去有時候是一個半小時,一個43分鐘,一個32,來你看下一張。"},{"start":6509.468,"end":6533.584,"text":"你如果把它全部加上去之後蔡英文任內的跳電的次數你把大庭店真實的狀況把它加進去是前面四年的2.2倍時間呢更長啦是幾倍是102到105年的2.6倍所以你們給的東西是基本上不要講說是你蓋牌你說部長說兩種問題是第二種才是一個真實的東西啊"},{"start":6534.571,"end":6536.493,"text":"我們的這個相關的跳電的次數並不是原來的2.2倍。」"},{"start":6546.455,"end":6553.459,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年條文修正草案．一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年條文修正草案。"},{"start":6573.148,"end":6575.55,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":6601.351,"end":6607.273,"text":"二、審查：一）經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21 年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21 年度中央政府總預算凍結案"},{"start":6621.46,"end":6626.325,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算擬具:「工廠管理輔導"},{"start":6638.052,"end":6653.857,"text":"把這四次的大停電把他加回去給民眾看好不好這是一個真實面的呈現讓民眾可以瞭解說真實的狀況是什麼第二個台電不要去誤導民眾讓民眾覺得說你好像蓋牌把真相蓋住了你要去面對問題才能夠解決問題好不好"},{"start":6655.7,"end":6657.041,"text":"好,謝謝張祺凱委員,接下來我們請呂玉玲委員發言"},{"start":6685.81,"end":6686.791,"text":"謝謝主席,請王部長"},{"start":6693.575,"end":6694.295,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6716.481,"end":6738.231,"text":"對員們對於火災現場的狀況無法正確判斷,造成了市民弟兄弟離難的悲劇。所以我們今天針對28之十四及三十一、三十九條要來修正。針對於工廠的危險物品,如果沒有為如實申報的"},{"start":6739.531,"end":6757.343,"text":"審報不實的或違反審報的,我們原來是一到五萬,現在要五到五百萬。現在本席要提醒的就是說,因為有些不實的審報或是規避審報,尤其是有些物品如果沒有放到工廠內,比如說是"},{"start":6758.206,"end":6765.692,"text":"負責物流業或倉儲業的倉儲設施理念的話,我們要如何規範管理,把範圍擴大?如果講起桃園的話,我統計的話,112年的2月,桃園就有2300家了。所以,我們是不是要擴大他們存放危險物品的地點、範圍跟他申報的場所呢?"},{"start":6784.232,"end":6795.757,"text":"事實上按照消防法的規定那個倉儲業者裡面的這些危險物品本來就都要符合消防法相關的這個可以存放的量所以你們有去檢查嗎?像昨天屏東的話這個就是倉儲這個大火而且乒乓乓的有爆炸的聲音這就是有危險物品啊"},{"start":6804.901,"end":6808.264,"text":"他有沒有危險物品我們會去查因為他是屬於特登工廠那這個我們會去了解屏東的這個部分因為本席會這麼提就是說有些工廠就是規避我們的管理我們必須要全面去管理他如果危險物品存放到工廠的話是符合我們規定的但是放到倉儲業那邊是大量的那是怎麼辦呢"},{"start":6828.021,"end":6837.489,"text":"長處業,因為它有一些,像以桃園為例,它有的是放在特區,那有一些是在一般的區域,那我們這個也曾經跨部會去討論過,那確實這個地方的主管機關對長處業應該確實要加強盤查。"},{"start":6843.974,"end":6863.227,"text":"是所以我們把納管進去全面管理才是最安全的好不好是是這個我們都有跟地方政府提到大型的倉儲業要做好相關的所以我們現在除了說是開法之外我們還要完善去他所有這次的一個妥善性的一個改善"},{"start":6864.248,"end":6882.843,"text":"對,我覺得事先讓他們知道要申報那事先告訴他們要怎麼做管理他存放的地點除了工廠還有可能是倉儲把倉儲放進去倉儲的設施直接放進去好不好這是安全最重要的再來本席要提個老問題啦就是停電的問題"},{"start":6884.653,"end":6902.638,"text":"部長,我們知道台電第一線員工他們在執行這個搶修、維修等等的工程,他們是非常辛苦的,疲於奔命。但是能源政策啊,這個規劃,要規劃得好。如果是規劃得很爛的話,他們真的是辛苦再辛苦,又危險。"},{"start":6903.818,"end":6921.171,"text":"尤其是現在我們包括我們的整個台電完善配電的設施的維修還有加強這個維修幫我們討厭這幾天你看看十幾次的停電所以我們在2018年的時候就有配電系統的這個強振計畫在2023年的話我們還有再提了五年的配電系統的升級計畫這個就是要來減少我們停電的發生"},{"start":6931.479,"end":6933.381,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6943.095,"end":6945.697,"text":"會減少到多少,這個現在沒有辦法就講數字,但是確實在配電系統這個部分我們盡量讓他可以自動來偵測,或者如果有壞掉可以自動轉換這個相關的這個設備,確實經費裡面有增加,來趕快來做相關的汰換。」"},{"start":6962.765,"end":6988.942,"text":"所以我們看以前的資料我特別去調了一些資料配電系統這個停電的次數如果在2020年到2023年的配電系統停電的次數是有減少看起來是有減少但是部長你再近看一下如果超過500戶的這個數量是增加的這代表著什麼範圍增加影響的戶數也在增加"},{"start":6990.458,"end":6991.419,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查：一、處理或審查：一、處理或審查"},{"start":7008.789,"end":7009.129,"text":"新達電廠一號、二號機要除役,還有民營的"},{"start":7029.819,"end":7051.332,"text":"賣寮電廠一號機、二號機合約也都到期了,再加上河山廠一號機也將在七月都除役,這個總會減少的總量是315萬瓦,但是我們看到你在增加的這些其他的店裡面已經可以補這個缺口的部分,您說你民營的部分的話有這個"},{"start":7052.953,"end":7077.727,"text":"生霸跟豐德三號機跟大潭的七號跟九號機還有新興達的一號機這個補上來的有443萬瓦的電力來補足雖然說新發電的多於這個要停掉的這個電力但是我們擔心的就是備轉容量的問題在415的時候備轉容量只剩下2.8%"},{"start":7079.824,"end":7081.205,"text":"條文修正草案案 條文修正草案 條文修正草案"},{"start":7109.366,"end":7126.714,"text":"才能夠穩定的配電輸電的,以我們的12%到15%嘛,現在你看你這2.8%這是很危險的,何況今年這麼多要除役合約到期的,你雖然有其他店補上來,但是你還要試營、你要試轉、要商轉、要點火還要試運、試轉,這種情形的話會不會中斷、斷層的話補不上來,這個都要"},{"start":7134.778,"end":7138.08,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案件及其中一項行政委員會及其中一項行政委員會及其中一項行政委員會及其中一項行政委員會及其中"},{"start":7166.446,"end":7169.008,"text":"第三十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":7196.17,"end":7211.744,"text":"法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條來強化工廠負責人的申報、督導、管理以及接受調查的責任以利主管機關在稽查管理的時候能夠更加的落實。那你支持嗎?"},{"start":7212.324,"end":7217.907,"text":"負責任職負責任職負責任職負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負�"},{"start":7231.175,"end":7232.737,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7257.278,"end":7258.999,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查〈工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案〉"},{"start":7275.928,"end":7278.071,"text":"而且美國智庫呢他也說了這個基金會他自己也說了台積電在日本熊本的設廠原因就在於台灣的電力不足你贊成這一句話的說法嗎"},{"start":7291.371,"end":7305.865,"text":"負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負貟負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負負"},{"start":7316.014,"end":7316.975,"text":"負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任"},{"start":7341.906,"end":7348.068,"text":"有給你這樣子的一個訊息跟警戒也就是有嚴重的短缺的情況你要怎麼處理?你要怎麼應對?"},{"start":7363.772,"end":7372.501,"text":"但是對台灣來講台灣其實不適合去發行那一種大模型的這個AI訓練模型台灣應該針對專業的這個專業的使用用小模型的這個部分來做你暫停你的發言你這樣子會唱衰台灣你暫停你的發言不是你可以決定整個產業的未來走向"},{"start":7386.434,"end":7387.114,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查：一、處理或審查"},{"start":7416.974,"end":7434.902,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案件事項,包括工廠管理輔導法第二十八條及三十一條條文修正草案案件事項,包括工廠管理輔導法第二十八條及三十一條條文修正草案案件事項,包括工廠管理輔導法第二十八條及三十一條條文修正草案案件事項,包括工廠管理輔導法第二十八條及三十一條條文修正草案案件事項,包括工廠管理輔導法第二十八條及三十一條條文修正草案案件事項,包括工廠管理輔導法第二十八條及三十一條文修正草案案件事項,包括"},{"start":7438.616,"end":7454.006,"text":"還不到限電是跳電或者是停電這樣的情況那民眾當然憂心有沒有可能從根源將合二合三場會延逸有沒有可能我想兩件事一個就是因為意外造成了這樣的一個機組故障"},{"start":7455.647,"end":7477.961,"text":"或者平常這個機組的這個設備壞掉這是一件事情那這個跟有沒有核電坦白講是沒有關係的那至於委員提到…… 不同意這樣的說法因為你明明白白已經機械壞掉天然的災害影響到我們地震十一五你都告訴我們是因為地震那我們都接受只要民眾要怎麼樣穩定供電"},{"start":7479.582,"end":7487.287,"text":"就是我們一直在找只要有機會那麼所以本席再強調再請問有沒有可能合二合三會研議"},{"start":7489.085,"end":7501.975,"text":"我想在核二、核三的部分立法院有相關的提案那委員也有主張我們都尊重那我想核電的研議呢當然也有這個可不可能執行的部分可不可能只要願意做執行面絕對沒有問題只要願意做執行面沒問題啊"},{"start":7514.364,"end":7518.888,"text":"核電的安全重要性絕對不是這樣的講法,絕對不是這樣的講法,但是我們現在在執行中嗎?你如果這樣的說法表示我們現在是不安全的?當然要專家、學者、專案來討論嘛,所以本校請教有沒有可能"},{"start":7540.409,"end":7541.51,"text":"會不會朝這個方向去研議?會不會?會會去討論!會去討論!當然!所以會不會討論?請教會不會討論?"},{"start":7561.454,"end":7577.795,"text":"工廠管理輔導相關提案你會不會尊重去討論?尊重會不會討論?委員的提案到立法院來,立法院當然就會討論。那你也同意討論?行政部門當然要尊重立法院的職權。所以你也同意討論嗎?是嗎?"},{"start":7580.314,"end":7585.816,"text":"立法院有相關的法案立法院有相關的法案立法院有相關的法案立法院有相關的法案立法院有相關的法案"},{"start":7608.683,"end":7623.371,"text":"在一個中油董事長在4月19號的告訴我們天然氣是明顯的在上揚,油價還好,現在71塊美金。但是本校要請教,今年1月到3月,LNG的部分我們總共吸收了107億元。"},{"start":7624.992,"end":7625.472,"text":"工廠管理輔導 工廠管理輔導 工廠管理輔導"},{"start":7653.246,"end":7678.857,"text":"打平 打平所以目前我們維持了這個打平的看法跟想法呢那麼你有可能還會調漲油氣價格嗎會不會因為有人說九月份就要調喔我們都很緊張欸不能再調欸所以現在立法院也有一個提案喔四月份你調了四月一號的電價九月份是不能調喔那也包括油喔請教部長"},{"start":7681.418,"end":7682.559,"text":"負責管理負責管理負責管理"},{"start":7702.506,"end":7721.477,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案件,其中一項是關於工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案件,其中一項是關於工廠管理輔導法第二十八條是關於工廠管理輔導法第二十八條是關於工廠管理輔導法第二十八條是關於工廠管理輔導法第二十八條是關於工廠管理輔導法第二十八條是關於工廠管理輔導法第二十八條是關於工廠管理輔導法第二十八條是關於工廠管理輔導法第二十八條是關於工廠管理輔導法第二十八條是關於工廠管理�"},{"start":7732.384,"end":7735.005,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21案等21案"},{"start":7750.433,"end":7765.517,"text":"但是你們又有一個訊息告訴我們說2400萬你們又有一個訊息說平均一度是五塊一不要這樣粉飾太平也不要這樣欺負老百姓因為很清楚你們這一次動用到的是180萬度"},{"start":7768.398,"end":7780.222,"text":"這1800000度裡頭你最重要的需量反應措施需量反應措施你包括基本上8塊10塊最後還有一道防線也就是可以在緊急狀況可以再加兩層12塊12塊所以你在需量反應制度裡頭的8塊10塊跟12塊你總共花了1869萬元"},{"start":7792.94,"end":7807.812,"text":"所以本席也希望電當然不能缺電大家怎麼共同去研討但是本席告訴你這個數字也就是說不要再去粉飾太平你明明白白虛量的反應措施就已經花了1869萬就不要再告訴民眾說我這一天的平均值是5.1塊不要這樣粉飾太平"},{"start":7814.778,"end":7825.728,"text":"條文修正草案．一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案．一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及三十一條條文修正草案．一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及三十一條條文修正草案．一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及三十一條條條文"},{"start":7840.882,"end":7855.79,"text":"貸款價就是長這個樣子就是給委員這個表的問題不是長這個樣子是實際上就是這個數字我只是告訴你本席要求告訴你我們就把真實的事情告訴社會黨大家才能夠共體時間好不好謝謝謝謝楊瓊英委員接下來我們請賴瑞龍委員發言"},{"start":7871.001,"end":7871.682,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7879.005,"end":7900.632,"text":"部長辛苦了,我想首先要問一下其實上個禮拜包括王耀廷總經理請辭了,其實我覺得這個他也做了很多的說明,部長也做了很多的說明,上禮拜四就不斷講到啦,我看不斷的澄清就其實不是因為缺電所造成的,因為地震後所產生的這個,但是你怎麼說不聽的就是不聽啦,這個"},{"start":7902.393,"end":7924.602,"text":"當然一定很挫折啦對於整個公務體系裡面同仁一定很挫折那我要講的是其實從停電的次數從這個2012年的兩萬一千零一十九次到2023年降為六一三三次其實十年來降了七成可是我們看這個曲線是這樣一個是往下降但另外一個快速上升是網路傳播的速度從原先的2012年"},{"start":7925.902,"end":7953.948,"text":"只談所謂的缺電停電的事情談四次到了最近暴增起來從2021年2022年暴增起來到了二十五萬超過二十五萬次增加了六萬倍了我認為這也是遇到了最大的一個問題就是說專業的經理人所講的話專業的講的話其實在某些領域上是沒有人要聽就是他不接受他不接受之後不斷的去渲染不斷去講自己所以這個往往就會造成了整個"},{"start":7954.767,"end":7958.131,"text":"行政體系上很大的一個困擾你怎麼講不斷的澄清"},{"start":7960.011,"end":7975.724,"text":"但是有些人不接受不聽就是不聽。有一段不斷地渲染出去。部長怎麼看待這樣的一個現象?這就是王總經理他感覺非常挫折的地方那我覺得大家應該就事論事那把這樣的一個事故造成的這個電廠事故或者是這個配電系統的這個設備故障那講成說缺電"},{"start":7986.053,"end":7988.715,"text":"責備相關修復時間等,確實對台電人員是非常不公平。所以我們想要讓大家知道,就這個事故的部分,跟大家可能有能源政策的不同,應該要分得清楚,不要把它混為一談。"},{"start":8007.551,"end":8036.39,"text":"政黨兼有不同的能源政策能源思考這個當然相互尊重但是在專業經理人專業意見這個要尊重他們的專業的那個然後若連這個部分都沒辦法去幫忙捍衛他們的一些基本的尊嚴跟他們整個說話的權利的時候那當然說的文官的體系會更加的辛苦啦這個我覺得長遠來說對國家絕對不是一件好事情所以我們也再次呼籲啦其實應該要不要讓草野的攻防滲入到影響到了整個專業文官的那個"},{"start":8036.73,"end":8046.642,"text":"三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之"},{"start":8056.052,"end":8075.805,"text":"實施大家共同的責任,若我們不捍衛的話,將來我認為這個現象會讓台灣往下走。我認為其實大家共同的責任。那再來其實我認為其實在2018年的時候我在諮詢沈榮金部長我就曾經問過了當我們核廢料的部分災黨不要核廢料"},{"start":8076.585,"end":8105.384,"text":"當我們深奧的電廠他不要空氣污染他不要燃煤當我們的山街要做的時候燃氣也不要山街也不做當我們的綠能在發展的時候用各種方式去抹黑攻擊綠能那電從哪裡來?沈榮進部長當時當然講的比較玩笑話因為聽了旁邊喔啊擦鼻孔來來那個但事實上這一個很無奈的發言所以說我覺得這也是另外一個問題所有的人士都應該來思考當你什麼都不要什麼發電方式都不要的時候你要電那電從哪裡來?"},{"start":8106.625,"end":8122.005,"text":"所以我覺得這個是很深刻的要去處理我從前兩天看到王耀廷總經理的發言上也是很無奈這樣要晶圓廠但是不要發電廠連電電鎖你看松性電電鎖那個東西拖了多久然後完全無法來推動"},{"start":8122.566,"end":8123.247,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查：一、處理或審查"},{"start":8140.56,"end":8145.901,"text":"把這樣的一個扭曲這個絕對不是缺電的問題那這個絕對不是我們不願意供電而是這個相關的阻撓超過了20年那造成這個delay這個讓變電所的建設delay那這個就造成在那個地區如果大用戶的話那就可能會受到限制我想這個事實是因果關係不要弄混淆了"},{"start":8164.226,"end":8178.075,"text":"所以部長在那個電力的那個輸送出去的那個還是要持續的去溝通說明你不能連電力的手都不要的時候那你要電力的穩定性所以台北市政府在最近終於給我們了所以我們趕快加緊來蓋那還要蓋臨時的再蓋正式的"},{"start":8182.858,"end":8203.831,"text":"電廠電廠電廠電廠"},{"start":8203.911,"end":8205.612,"text":"二、審查．一、處理或審查一、二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":8227.861,"end":8251.178,"text":"所以我覺得部長跟所有的同仁我們繼續努力我覺得國家是大家的台灣是大家的大家要同心來推如果都用偏狹的觀念的話那我高雄發的電我不往中送往北送的話那北部怎麼辦所以我說這個是要有整體國家一體的概念這樣國家才會進步好不好我希望部長跟所有的要勇敢大聲的不斷的把這些事實對外講"},{"start":8251.758,"end":8252.619,"text":"負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任"},{"start":8268.291,"end":8288.863,"text":"謝謝那今天我們來處理的是工廠管理輔導法其實問題也出在於罰則過低所以上次的這個民洋的部分後來他用消防法罰了240萬那事實上工廠管理輔導法確實偏低的狀況結果那過去只有這個1到5位這個這個太低了完全無嚇阻力所以這一次我們增加到了500這也是院版嘛對不對"},{"start":8290.204,"end":8299.591,"text":"那我裡面還有提到的甚至於如果遇到一些重大的狀況的時候可以得勒令停工再復工這樣的狀況部長同意這樣的做法嗎?"},{"start":8301.463,"end":8327.808,"text":"本來對這樣情節重大的時候我們就有這個機制對我只有這個機制我只把這個機制納入法裡面來就像當時的中油這個大林場發生2022年那次嚴重的時候事實上也是當然是停工了然後後來再申請後再復工事實上重大的時候都有這樣的程序那我們只把這個程序放到法裡面來我也希望部長思考一下啦齁如果放進來給予業者更大的一個壓力其實程序上也都這麼做啦齁"},{"start":8328.628,"end":8356.927,"text":"只要發生重到大概都是一定停工再復工我們希望明天再來來討論也希望部長能夠支持好謝謝部長辛苦了部長謝謝好謝謝賴瑞隆委員接下來我們請邱志偉委員發言邱志偉發言之後我們就休息五分鐘沒有啦我怕被你打死謝謝主席有請王部長"},{"start":8357.974,"end":8385.44,"text":"來,請部長。委員好,是。部長,這個臺電所有同仁,特別是第一線的,碰到這個天災或碰到任何緊急事故,都是冒著生命危險的,沒日沒夜的搶救。他們心腦我非常了解。因為我的選區所在地就是沿海地區,海鋒來這個停電的這個距離非常大,又有電廠。"},{"start":8386.966,"end":8415.618,"text":"所以很多同仁每日每夜為了國家的電力穩定在付出。立法院有些不理性的或知識程度不足的立法委員所發言令人覺得非常痛心。不僅打擊基層公務人員的士氣也製造了很多假象傳遞不實的訊息是局部停電就是缺電"},{"start":8417.148,"end":8440.758,"text":"國會議員不要成為社會的亂源國會議員要成為支持國家建設的穩定力量安定民生的力量這王耀勤、王總經理我跟他相識多年從基層做起腳踏實地勢必攻輕專業度夠而且又有夫樂成"},{"start":8442.598,"end":8461.47,"text":"連他那麼盡心盡力為國家為電力穩定功力在犧牲奉獻的這個公務人員都還要受到這些這個這個屈辱我覺得這些亂講話知識水平不足的國務委員要深切反省你會遭到天譴這個部長在520之後你下一步會去哪裡"},{"start":8471.825,"end":8473.827,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":8499.318,"end":8528.485,"text":"所以不管是行政或立法部門我們心中是人民國家讓國家更好讓人民更幸福沒有一個公務人員會再懈怠沒有一個國會議員應該懈怠沒有一個國會議員要昧著良心說話這個啊閒者做實事啊愚者博聲亮可惜的是啊議法院愚者太多"},{"start":8530.771,"end":8535.173,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查．一、處理或審查．一、處理或審查．一、處理或審查"},{"start":8553.21,"end":8562.174,"text":"經濟部有運用役後特別預算,在各縣市有設立輔導攤,高雄市取得特徵100%,納管衛燈工廠取得特徵比率非常低,總計加起來不到三成。"},{"start":8571.597,"end":8579.021,"text":"這個部分你這個輔導團之後預算用完之後你還有沒有相關經費來協助輔導團來給輔導團因為業者需要持續的輔導現在的東西因為你還有75%還沒有取得這個取得特登"},{"start":8588.274,"end":8589.294,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8611.423,"end":8613.504,"text":"管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8638.854,"end":8639.855,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":8663.055,"end":8677.715,"text":"所以這個部分在工廠管理法裡面要怎麼去做一些規範?他如果不是屬於製造業的話沒有在我們工福法裡面的部分但是他仍然應該要按照消防法部分來做相關的申報危險物品的申報"},{"start":8679.933,"end":8706.051,"text":"不要讓這個倉儲成為一個消防或者是這個工業區治安的一些安全的一個引爆點。是這樣是工業局要負責還是還是地方政府要負責?倉儲要地方政府跟這個消防的單位負責。海淡廠那個水利署署長"},{"start":8707.45,"end":8720.937,"text":"國外有些新技術,我希望你去了解一下,怎麼樣讓這個新技術引進,讓這個新技術引進,然後你把透過這個效益,讓海蛋廠的效果能夠提高。」"},{"start":8723.251,"end":8748.443,"text":"謝謝委員提供這個訊息事實上我們每年的這個國際水州包括你所提供的這個技術還有甚至包括澳洲它也有屬於是類似的技術是浮動式的我希望能夠引進新的技術來降低成本提高它的這個淡水的生產量因為我驅水的問題會變常態性所以如果你要提高成本你現在成立建置一個這個海淡廠大概要50億吧"},{"start":8750.23,"end":8752.05,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":8773.556,"end":8775.117,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案案案案。"},{"start":8802.999,"end":8813.287,"text":"函請銷,中國利用一些政策工具,例如函請銷稅,商務部對中鋼有些函請銷的作為,對台灣業者經營市場的影響有沒有做相關的評估?"},{"start":8825.334,"end":8827.256,"text":"那我們有沒有報復性的措施?或是鑿之罪名還是真的有這種事實?"},{"start":8853.52,"end":8878.798,"text":"如果以我們看之前中國剛針對PC的這個函請銷的那個個案事實上會進口到中國的包括韓國、臺灣跟泰國那臺灣只是佔進口的百分之二十幾所以聚碳酸子這個部分對臺灣之外有其他進口國有他只拿臺灣開刀是對不對而且我們的進口比率還算低的"},{"start":8880.075,"end":8885.218,"text":"凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案"},{"start":8909.062,"end":8930.834,"text":"的反傾銷的指控是不符合事實的,那我們要不要實行一些報復作為?」兩件事齁,針對這個不符合,我們如果覺得他這個不合理的時候,我們確實第一個要應訴,第二個判了之後我們是不是應該要去勝訴,那這個是一回事情,這個是國際的規則。那至於我們的部分應該看這個的"},{"start":8932.955,"end":8941.977,"text":"二、審查．一）行政院函請審查．一）工廠管理輔導二、審查．一）工廠管理輔導三、審查．一）工廠管理輔導四、審查．一）工廠管理輔導五、審查．一）工廠管理輔導六、審查．一）工廠管理輔導七、審查．一）工廠管理輔導八、審查．一）工廠管理輔導八、審查．一）工廠管理輔導九、審查．一）工廠管理輔導十、審查．"},{"start":8954.52,"end":8955.081,"text":"負責處理負責處理負責處理負責"},{"start":8967.472,"end":8973.394,"text":"事由化學品儲槽業,可不可以問答?事由化學品儲槽業,可不可以問答?事由化學品儲槽業,可不可以問答?"},{"start":8986.681,"end":8987.161,"text":"副部長,辛苦了!"},{"start":9016.892,"end":9040.572,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度"},{"start":9049.353,"end":9052.525,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條文修正草案。"},{"start":9286.83,"end":9290.297,"text":"來喔那個各部會趕快摳一下你們的手掌回到座位囉還有30秒喔"},{"start":9336.305,"end":9364.78,"text":"好,來,我們現在繼續開會接下來我們請鄭正前委員發言謝主席,我想請一下王美花部長來,請部長還有我們內政部消防署的副署長今天是副署長來是副署長嗎副署長好,委員好"},{"start":9373.083,"end":9393.86,"text":"今天我們委員會這邊特別在審工廠管理輔導法為什麼我同時請部長還有我們內政部這邊的代表一起來第一個看到了就是520之後我們美化部長可能有另外的一個位置要去"},{"start":9394.941,"end":9422.417,"text":"那我想說雖然之前我們對經濟部這邊也有很多不同的質疑可是我覺得在工廠管理輔導法這件事情當中我覺得經濟部顯然比內政部有誠意的多要來解決去年屏東民洋大火之後所產生的問題這一點我覺得是要給經濟部這邊一個肯定因為我們今天在審工廠管理輔導法這邊就是因為去年民洋大火之後然後工廠"},{"start":9423.858,"end":9440.189,"text":"當中有很多危險物品,可這個問題不只是我們經濟部要面對的,內政部、消防署這一邊是真正的相關的關係人啊。可是我想問一下內政部這一邊,你們消防法體育修正了沒?在送進院會裡面來了沒?"},{"start":9443.164,"end":9471.811,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們本來已經都修好完成可是在這個過程中又要增加有關於消防同仁的職安的專章大概有13個條文所以我們整個案子在院裡面跟我們指示要整個案子整個完成之後才在在做相關的送審那現在目前的草案已經完成我們也完成了所謂的性別以及那個簡單回覆你們這個消防法的修正什麼時候會送到立法院來"},{"start":9473.351,"end":9495.087,"text":"因為行政院這邊也都還沒有過嘛是因為屆期不連續啦所以我為什麼特別講說經濟部在這件事情當中要解決危險物品處理的部分比內政部來得有誠意的多因為同樣都碰到屆期不連續可是經濟部已經送進來了我們今天經濟委員會已經在審了所以您把這個訊息帶回去請內政部加快腳步"},{"start":9496.547,"end":9514.035,"text":"當時其實去年美洋大火之後消防人員他們提出了三個主要的訴求請都好好的加以考慮盡快把消防法在送進立法院裡面這邊來我想說在這邊就跟那個美洋部長這邊就也做一個溝通"},{"start":9515.917,"end":9530.097,"text":"五二零不管說你到哪裡去我相信其實也都會有一個好的一個發展的一個空間那我想特別講說就是我們今天在講說工廠輔導管理法這邊的時候那因為他也是去年"},{"start":9531.118,"end":9532.258,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9553.091,"end":9555.992,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":9580.462,"end":9584.525,"text":"有有這個確實其實處罰已經到後端比較重要是要讓廠商知道說你什麼東西是要申報的那這個就有講到說他要申報之前他說那這個到底是不是要申報我不清楚所以相關的資訊系統我們就在這個過去幾個月跟環境部跟內政部有做非常多的討論"},{"start":9602.319,"end":9607.503,"text":"新竹科學園區的工廠密集,請問有沒有說明會到新竹科學園區做說明?有,我們也跟相關的科學園區管理局密切配合,也跟他們做溝通。我也跟委員報告,其實科學園區的比較單純。"},{"start":9622.998,"end":9623.619,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查"},{"start":9638.337,"end":9641.078,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查一、二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":9663.823,"end":9692.365,"text":"那我想說在這邊的時候我還是針對電的問題跟對美亞部長做一個溝通因為4月20號的時候臺電有發表一個新聞稿說實話就是王總經理被未留下來我相信對於整個臺電接下來的穩定發展我覺得還是可以值得肯定因為坦白說在野黨對於王總經理也沒有覺得說他必須要下臺來負責這件事情那我只想針對因為在整個臺電新聞稿當中他提到說"},{"start":9693.266,"end":9703.738,"text":"少數人華3C產品使用便利店你卻對台電酸言酸語你覺得這樣子的一個新聞稿適合嗎?部長我想在過去那段時間那幾天確實受到因為這個"},{"start":9708.283,"end":9726.549,"text":"地震造成這個電廠故障然後另外有一些設備故障的部分那確實網路上的這一些比較負面的評論非常讓臺電的同仁受傷啦你也知道基層的臺電的員工其實不容易啦那四一五確實也沒有出現跳電的一個情況確實大家把它cover起來"},{"start":9729.13,"end":9730.851,"text":"二）工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9747.722,"end":9774.293,"text":"可是我們每個人都用電可是我們還是一樣要監督台電他很多部分的一個執行所以我覺得這樣的新聞稿我覺得是有一些問題的那希望說台電之後在整個新聞稿的處理當中的時候能夠相對友善而且更謙虛去看民眾的一個聲音那另外當中新聞有達東還提到一個點他說2023年的事故停電次數跟2012年比降低七成這件事情部長你對這部分怎麼看"},{"start":9775.778,"end":9788.751,"text":"確實我們這個事故的這個都是每一次都有做相關的統計的因為我要特別講一個狀態因為我看了整個的一個年報資料當中"},{"start":9792.008,"end":9798.594,"text":"我發現了一個情況就是我們看到從102年到110年就是台電聯報這邊的時候針對這十年主要經營數據指標的一個狀態那我們看到了一個情況就是"},{"start":9809.938,"end":9832.818,"text":"大約從102年到110年每戶的停電時間還有每戶停電的次數其實都差不多大概都在每戶停電的時間都在16分鐘那每戶每年的停電次數大概都在0.2次數字事實上是差不多的所以我對於這個減少七成這個數字其實是有一些疑惑的"},{"start":9834.76,"end":9850.651,"text":"當我們看到整個年報資料的時候發現它數字是差不多的並這十年來並沒有太大的一個差距那其中的時候尤其是我們在106年、117年跟117年當中的時候有三次的一個大停電"},{"start":9851.852,"end":9852.032,"text":"凍結案 凍結案 凍結案 凍結案 凍結案 凍結案"},{"start":9879.939,"end":9892.143,"text":"指導及指示,希望臺電在面臨接下來的停電相關問題的時候,等危機處理的時候能夠更有誠意,而不是不斷地用去美化數字的方式要來解決這個問題,我們覺得它是有"},{"start":9894.884,"end":9921.665,"text":"不太精確的部分,那如果說有要補充說明的時候再來本辦公室做說明,對於這些數字,怎麼來我看都是連年報上面的數字,但我們覺得是有問題。好,我們停電的次數,我們台灣是用停電超過一分鐘,如果超過一分鐘我們就會算一次,那有的國家是會用超過五分鐘算一次,所以每個國家不一樣,但是我們是用嚴格的一分鐘,超過一分鐘就會算一次。"},{"start":9922.386,"end":9924.567,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21案等21案"},{"start":9955.629,"end":9980.261,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案 請王部長,還有水利署長。我們知道因為氣候變遷的調適,所以行政院投入非常多預算,大概是多少?在水的部分嗎?整個氣候變遷的調適?"},{"start":9981.84,"end":9982.08,"text":"四千多億嗎?"},{"start":9996.141,"end":10024.504,"text":"我再跟委員確認指的是哪一個部分。那我想要說的是從我們就是說西部的這個相關的水能源就是水環境的計劃裡面我們過去也在推廣珍珠串的西部廊道的供水管管網對不對現在目前的進度是如何我知道說像我們的鳥嘴潭的人工湖是已經完成了"},{"start":10024.864,"end":10050.772,"text":"那他可以供給我們彰化多少用水?署長你也說一下。謝謝首先第一個這個珍樹村計畫是部長在百年大憾的時候提出來的那相關的這個各項的工作包括這個圖上面的我們的進度都很順利那第二個部分是鳥水潭人工湖啊我們六個湖區都已經完成蓄水了那未來對彰化的部分的話可以取代原來的地下水每日21萬噸"},{"start":10051.972,"end":10069.918,"text":"所以會提供給彰化21萬噸的用水對不對那我想要瞭解就是說在水環境的計畫裡面為什麼浮流水的開發工程第二期我知道是大概有5900多萬為什麼執行率好像只有30點多%"},{"start":10072.844,"end":10083.108,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案．一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案．一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案。"},{"start":10101.536,"end":10116.439,"text":"人工湖的部分剛剛已經跟委員說明了雖然說他是坐在南投但是他主要的效益是在彰化所以我們也沒有就是在平地人工湖的部分沒有規劃在彰化來進行相關的就是計劃是不是"},{"start":10118.401,"end":10141.937,"text":"這個計畫裡面我們有一個浮流水在所謂彰化的北邊在烏溪的部分烏溪在彰化市市的北邊嘛對不對我們我記得過去的時候好像那個王部長也有過去看過現在目前進展是如何未來如果就是因為氣候變遷導致又又有嚴重的缺水的情況我們目前有沒有辦法因應"},{"start":10143.157,"end":10169.815,"text":"絕對有辦法因應現在在珍珠串的計劃裡面特別是在這張圖裡面有一個台中至雲林的這個水資源調度那這個部分的話彰化跟台中之間會有20萬噸的調度能力那至於彰化跟雲林之間還有12萬噸的調度能力那這個都是雙向的比如說像我們在彰化沿著這個台一線有時候北水可以南調有時候南水可以北調對不對"},{"start":10170.936,"end":10177.525,"text":"凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10188.459,"end":10189.9,"text":"立法院第11會期經濟委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21案"},{"start":10206.613,"end":10209.355,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案件事實上已經獲得控制。"},{"start":10228.544,"end":10230.846,"text":"管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10251.001,"end":10256.404,"text":"凍結案及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案及所屬主管預算凍結"},{"start":10276.936,"end":10280.239,"text":"新能的發展有沒有可能成為一種機載的電力?」"},{"start":10284.652,"end":10313.89,"text":"首先我謝謝委員上禮拜到我們公園院的一區內接肉隊那一天我們有展出的所謂的氫能測試平台那氫能在整個2050的國發會的那個路徑圖裡面將來是會佔有9到12%的一個發電量那我們對氫能公園院公園院對氫能的一個發展其實在2022年的時候我們一個氫能應用的策略的藍圖那在這幾年我們非常努力大家把它分成三部分"},{"start":10314.29,"end":10322.954,"text":"立法院第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第"},{"start":10333.118,"end":10334.018,"text":"三十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10351.725,"end":10364.01,"text":"所謂的積載的發電量,就是跟天然氣一樣,現在我們試驗的是天然氣跟氫能的混燒,那將來是混燒的百分比會越來越多,最後是不是有辦法用純氫發電,這是大家對於2040、2050的一個期待。」"},{"start":10368.131,"end":10392.609,"text":"對,所以有可能嘛,是不是?你認為?我們都有期待對,阿你認為現在工研院的技術裡面有沒有辦法成為就是全球在氫能發展上面裡面比較關鍵的一個角色呢?剛剛跟委員報告了幾個三個方面就從生產跟運輸儲存還有一個應用我們都是以考慮到台灣的所有的限制那在什麼情況之下我們應該怎麼樣的發展"},{"start":10394.184,"end":10412.944,"text":"對那有沒有辦法新的未來的發展有沒有辦法取代太陽光電產業就是成為下一代的能源的產業呢取代應該是不至於但是一定會相輔相成是嗎有沒有就是你至少要比他更好因為太陽光電沒有辦法成為基載嗎是不是"},{"start":10414.276,"end":10418.641,"text":"我期待我們臺灣青能的發展因為畢竟我們就是這一次的電價的調漲"},{"start":10435.58,"end":10457.695,"text":"以及就是大家對於就是石化產業還有淨零碳排的這樣子的一個議題我們知道說未來我們必須要有低價以及乾淨的能源那這正是我們大家的期待啦好不好好謝謝委員好謝謝謝一鳳委員那陳超明委員已經改書面質詢號接下來我們請蔡易瑜委員發言"},{"start":10467.867,"end":10478.355,"text":"管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條文修正草案案案 。"},{"start":10497.449,"end":10516.969,"text":"科與負責人更高的公安義務,所以我們大概法則會做提高。那這邊我想我們事實上自己也都有提案,那經濟部這邊也是同意這樣的一個修正方式。但是回到這個工夫法的本身,"},{"start":10517.829,"end":10519.15,"text":"負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責"},{"start":10538.317,"end":10562.947,"text":"那大概是在一個時間用時間來做一個切開那輔導他們可以走向合法工廠但是我聽到的他們縱使納管之後要走到合法包括要繳納的這一筆回饋金事實上沒有幾家可以走到那部長你覺得最大的原因是什麼?"},{"start":10564.448,"end":10565.088,"text":"負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任"},{"start":10587.659,"end":10600.471,"text":"審理,如果缺人,應該用收取的這些營運金等等來徵雇相關的員工來趕快審理這些案子,那才能夠一步一步往下走。我想這個委員講﹚對,對,他們在欺騙人,這個比較失望,電話欺騙人。而且你看這樣納管的現在的家屬蠻多的,這些納管的基本上每年都有繳交,一年是十萬元。"},{"start":10614.254,"end":10615.295,"text":"最多十萬元,大規模上是這樣,"},{"start":10626.596,"end":10641.562,"text":"但現在看起來就是有一個第一個就是說地方政府人員不足是一個問題第二個問題就是說如果以過去的工廠他們大概蓋的規模都已經那個廠房的型就出來了阿既然那個廠房的型出來他們就是說工廠也有天車"},{"start":10645.803,"end":10651.608,"text":"在工廠的四周圍都長那個樣子的。結果我們現在是要求他們說必須要符合隔離綠帶。所謂隔離綠帶1.5米的這樣的一個要求。那就會變成說我工廠一年繳了10萬元,甚至後來我們已經走到了說要義募變更,然後未來要走到這個工廠可以讓它合法化。"},{"start":10671.883,"end":10684.615,"text":"那合法化後甚至他們的屋頂可以走向用綠能的方式,這都是一個很正面的方向,一邊走,不就走在說,我為了這個隔離預待我就必須要去把我的廠房拆下來,我的廠房要拆一面,"},{"start":10688.198,"end":10711.025,"text":"甚至差異面的可能影響到我的天車,我那天的天車就整個定了。所以大概很多在申請已經在納管中的這些特定工廠,他們走不下去,不然就是他們現在回饋金他們不敢納出來。為什麼他不敢繳出來?他怕他最後是走不到的啊,所以他們就自己也卡住了。"},{"start":10712.718,"end":10730.568,"text":"那部長這一件事情我想你也清楚啦那我們到底有沒有一個方向我們既然訂了這個工廠管理輔導辦法那他們已經納管這麼久了但是他們無法走到最後一步那表示可能是在法令上是有問題的啊不然為什麼他們都願意配合就是無法走到最後一步勒"},{"start":10731.168,"end":10741.598,"text":"要走到最後一步的時候他要變成是特務那這樣讓整個工廠完全變成合法的時候那確實在整個建築的法規的時候還是要符合啦吼那之前有因為這個隔離率在1.5米的時候會造成這個要拆兩次的問題那我們這個有跨部會溝通過不要讓廠商去拆兩次就是一併來做相關的審理的部分"},{"start":10758.252,"end":10783.138,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案件,包括工廠的相關的這個建壁率什麼等等,還是要去符合相關規定。那我們會有專業的來告訴他,你這個到土地合法化的這個應該怎麼去申請審查。我想建壁率這件事他們是願意配合的。基本上他要符合建壁率他們說好哪一塊地要符合一個現在大概是百分之"},{"start":10784.418,"end":10784.618,"text":"建築法規 規定規定規定"},{"start":10815.518,"end":10840.026,"text":"臨近的土地,臨近的旁邊如果是農地的話,你也不可能叫他去找旁邊的人買。去找他買起來,來補他那1.5米。這你也做不到啊。那個是可以的。對,這是一個可以的方式,但是實際上真的是很難啊。就是有成功的案例,有成功的案例。少之又少啦。"},{"start":10841.53,"end":10850.776,"text":"可以真的去買到跟旁邊的買到,那也要帶旁邊的人玩意買的,旁邊的人沒玩意買的,那還是給他用超高價的。」"},{"start":10853.342,"end":10866.991,"text":"但對於他的這樣的一個應該有保留的這個鑑幣率的部分這個部分畢竟他要把它變成完全合法化的時候還是要去遵守這些的相關的規定但是做法上"},{"start":10882.961,"end":10885.383,"text":"所以我們這個部分有相關的輔導團隊來做協助這個確實到要做用地完全合法之前的這個其實是比較複雜沒有錯"},{"start":10898.792,"end":10922.935,"text":"但是我們有輔導團隊來告訴他這個應該怎麼走才可以符合內政部跟農委會的相關規範。」部長我覺得齁,可能跟地方做一個調查啦,就是了解一下現在他們這一些納管、已納管的工廠,那他們現在不管是消防啦,他們每天都在做嘛齁,他們都最好他們為望知卻步,到底理由在於什麼,我覺得這可能你們要做個實際的調查。"},{"start":10924.136,"end":10943.573,"text":"那知道到底這一些工廠他們現在問題在哪裡,那你們把經濟起來。啊如果是卡在說現行如果這1.5米就變成一個不合理的地方,那是不是該檢討就要檢討一下?我們會來跟地方政府來密切就委員關心後半段,因為到後半段這個目前的案子也會越來越多了。所以這個的部分怎麼樣來處理?"},{"start":10946.095,"end":10971.331,"text":"有通過的真的沒幾家,但是我們上路已經到了第四年了。那實質上通過的還沒幾家。我們既然我們這是要獲得他們的,我們就是要聽他們的心聲,知道他們的困難點在哪裡。這樣好不好?好,謝謝。好,謝謝蔡易瑜委員的發言。接下來我們請何欣淳委員。謝謝張偉秋委員。那我們請部長。來,請王部長。"},{"start":10978.39,"end":11005.449,"text":"部長好,謝謝你之前也去參加過我召開的中小企業座談會那前兩天我也看到你到台南參加陳委員的中小企業座談會那我想你就了解說現在中小企業的尤其在傳統產業的中小企業恢復的慢慢還沒有期待中的快那我們當然是期待今年年底景氣會越來越好"},{"start":11006.229,"end":11008.933,"text":"法、工廠管理輔導法在前次的修法,我們為了就是要輔導農地上的工廠可以合法"},{"start":11023.633,"end":11033.036,"text":"那我們一部的一部的和呃輔導那所以呢我也認為說呃我們方向是正確的但是在執行面上我還是要請經濟部部長呃施政是要無縫接軌我也希望未來的經濟部能夠好好的去了解現在呃在工廠管理輔導法我們修法過後正在申請特定工廠的這些中小企業傳統產業他碰到的困境"},{"start":11052.422,"end":11061.647,"text":"一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等22案等24案等25案等26案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27案等27"},{"start":11080.526,"end":11102.206,"text":"所以地方政府現在你也知道他在審理的時候改善計畫很慢非常的慢那在這麼情況之下第一個我們除了要求地方政府要增加人力那也要增加他的專業度而且他們審查的標準應該要全台灣有一致性這個我們經濟部要介入協調"},{"start":11103.967,"end":11108.448,"text":"這第一個啦雖然我每次問這一題你們經濟部都跟我說有協調有協調但是那為什麼各地方政府在審認的一些標準細節上的審認標準還是不一樣我想不是我提而已剛剛有其他的委員提到這第一點因為呢這些申請納管的特定工廠申請中的這些工廠樣態非常的多"},{"start":11127.793,"end":11128.373,"text":"負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責"},{"start":11144.338,"end":11172.972,"text":"那還有效率要提高現在的效率非常的緩慢所以呢像臺中市我知道的他可能改善計畫的一個審查都還不到一半而這衍生一個什麼問題衍生出我們其他的配套的問題之前我有跟經濟部總辦講過其中一個配套是什麼現在的特定工廠正在申請中的所謂的這個農地上的工廠他申請納管了但是他的改善計畫也送了"},{"start":11174.073,"end":11180.624,"text":"但在台中市政府還沒有審查完畢。」所以他變成什麼?他的外籍移工的合法派遣"},{"start":11181.641,"end":11197.009,"text":"出現了問題,這個問題還不是我們經濟部中辦幫產業界想到的,這個問題還是因為產業界來拜託民意代表,就是拜託立法委員說委員這個時間就要到了,為什麼我們經濟部都沒有主動幫我們中小企業來發聲,放任了這個勞動部還要啟動專案,要從今年的3月19號之後就要開始稽查,這是矛盾的,"},{"start":11209.008,"end":11210.41,"text":"二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":11229.412,"end":11234.356,"text":"一個依據讓他知道這個狀況勞動部說那我可以把這個A、B廠的外籍移工的這個合法申請派錢的這個效期我可以延期你們經濟部還不發文欸你們經濟部還不發文欸就是沒有發文因為這是我親自協調的所以勞動部他知道這個情況了之後自己延長了"},{"start":11254.398,"end":11262.062,"text":"你們經濟部不是應該就站在這個產業輔導嗎而且呢這個特定工廠正在申請當中這個改善計畫沒有審查完畢不是這些申請者的責任啊不是他們的問題啊是政府考量的問題啊結果我們沒有幫忙解決問題這是第一個第二個我必須要提醒部長我們現在正在申請特定工廠的改善計畫裡面我"},{"start":11281.112,"end":11282.413,"text":"三十萬、五十萬至一百萬,不等再幫這些特定工廠來申請。」"},{"start":11311.712,"end":11317.594,"text":"十幾項裡面光是一個生活污水評估你知道就要價多少嗎另外再開價五十萬你像那一個中小企業我們既然政府有心輔導他合法可是呢在這個代辦費用之外我們要求的這個改善計畫的每一項零零種種的改善要求裡面對中小企業來講每一項都要錢"},{"start":11335.819,"end":11337.34,"text":"那為什麼我們政府的輔導團的這個預算編了我們輔導團的作用又在哪裡不過我想也趁這個機會請委員去轉達第一個我們那個改善計畫我們有範本那第二個我們政府的經費我們政府經費確實有像委員講有輔導團來協助他那這個部分就可以降低委員講在外面被"},{"start":11358.755,"end":11359.895,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":11387.223,"end":11393.686,"text":"來,是不是請產發署找個時間跟何委員聯繫一下,好嗎?好,接下來我們請黃國昌委員發言。來,請部長。"},{"start":11416.32,"end":11430.075,"text":"是,好,委員好部長好2021年我回到民間社會了以後接到一個檢舉就開始追蹤這個牽涉到我們台中火力發電廠有個129億的標案其中一個機裝工程那個機裝要灌水泥上面的結構物才會穩那裡面這個機裝工程造假"},{"start":11438.704,"end":11457.398,"text":"當然接到這個檢舉以後我必須要實事求是的去看一看發現還蠻誇張的同樣的單據有不同的出貨內容然後實際上面的單據跟假的單據虛冠的水泥量大概多了一倍以上"},{"start":11458.8,"end":11474.148,"text":"那把這些單據全部都收集完了以後我大概法律上面的確信就一定有造假的問題所以我非常的關心我在2021年9月的時候我就劇狀向臺北地檢署提出告發了"},{"start":11474.926,"end":11502.996,"text":"那告發完了以後呢那個時候臺電公司針對這件事情因為我已經公開揭露這件事情了以後他們有做一些說明他們說這個水泥量初步研判上屬合理沒有發現明顯變造的痕跡也沒有辦法認為這個公司有偽造的狀況好那我們實際看最後的結果今年四月就這個月"},{"start":11504.512,"end":11525.663,"text":"紅展公司偽造水泥出廠單獲利兩千多萬已經正式被起訴了。」我看那個起訴書的內容跟我們當初檢舉的內容基本上是一致的但是他的規模他造假的狀況讓人觸目驚心我具體的跟部長報告從2019到2020偽造了1246張"},{"start":11531.707,"end":11544.865,"text":"水泥的出廠單應該使用兩萬將近三萬噸的水泥結果只使用了一萬七千多噸大概只實際的使用的水泥比他說他要用的水泥只有六成"},{"start":11546.025,"end":11571.374,"text":"偽造施工紀錄表甚至在專心取樣的時候專心取樣的時候是廠商先拿假的樣體然後偷偷的搬到現場去搬到現場去的時候我也不曉得專心取樣的時候現場應該要有人監督但沒有人監督他就拿假的東西出來假的東西出來現在取出了120隻的機裝"},{"start":11573.895,"end":11600.925,"text":"其中有97支是造假的。」我看完了這個狀況以後觸目驚心啊我只擔心一件事情第一個當初台電的調查是怎麼做的第二個中火這個工程真的安全嗎這件事情部長你應該有掌握吧上一屆國會的時候已經有委員提過這樣的問題甚至在總質詢的時候蘇貞昌院長都承諾要正視啊"},{"start":11603.124,"end":11606.965,"text":"我跟委員報告因為委員今天臨時提這樣的一個問題那如果我的印象沒錯的話台電這個部分也有請專家來看第一個造假是一個問題第二個安全是一個問題委員講的那在安全的部分我記得的理解是安全的部分那個專家判定好像是沒有問題那造假的這個部分我坦白講我"},{"start":11631.26,"end":11654.753,"text":"不太記得這個後面臺電這個後續是怎麼做的因為啊這個案子拖了蠻久的啦從我2021年具狀告發到現在2024年4月這個月起訴所以我是利用這一次的職訓讓部長提醒部長這件事情兩個層次造假這個已經是確定了嘛所以臺電該檢討的是當初的行政調查到底是怎麼做的"},{"start":11655.475,"end":11680.563,"text":"因為我今天秀出當初臺電的行政調查報告給部長看嘛臺電全部在文過是非阿那第二個層次你剛剛說安全性的問題現在我一個最基本的問題是如果當初的行政調查報告都已經sloppy到這種程度了都已經sloppy到這種程度了我們要不要重新的檢視要不要重新的檢視當初臺電"},{"start":11684.656,"end":11688.061,"text":"告訴社會大眾說安全沒有問題這件事值得信任嗎?"},{"start":11689.276,"end":11713.981,"text":"那個是我記得台電是有請專業的去做判斷去做判斷說安全有沒有問題的部分沒有關係啦部長您所謂台電請專業的來做判斷這件事情那個專業的報告是不是可以提供給各位委員因為這個大家都很關心這個事嘛主席站起來了我只問最後一個事情為什麼這個違法前科"},{"start":11714.961,"end":11742.773,"text":"雷雷這麼嚴重的廠商,到目前為止都還沒有刊登政府公報聽權。台電有沒有報還是行政程序沒有做完?部長可以回去瞭解嗎?欸這個我再瞭解一下。這種爛廠商喔,絕對要把他踢出去啊。絕對不要再讓他做政府工程了。可以嗎?欸我再瞭解,是。好,謝謝。好,後續再請經濟部去進行瞭解。好,謝謝。接下來我們請侯孟凱委員發言。"},{"start":11751.588,"end":11753.492,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":11760.762,"end":11785.248,"text":"市長,我想還是來跟您就教理念跟觀念立場的部分本身有看到說在前天你們有前往這個中南部做這個企業中小企業的一個座談你特別有提到現在減碳跟智慧化轉型是重要的項目甚至好像你有提到一個例子說如果說跟其他企業現在來溝通的話一個小時有40分鐘都在討論怎麼樣減碳是不是"},{"start":11788.557,"end":11809.115,"text":"這個是我到其他國家去碰到的實際的情形是那您知道說現在國內排碳大戶前十大戶有哪一些嗎有當然這個有相關的清單包括中鋼、台積電、中油、台塑等等水泥廠等等"},{"start":11812.211,"end":11836.021,"text":"最大的排電大戶最大的產業是哪個產業知道嗎?石化產業是最大電力跟燃相關的供應燃氣供應業電力跟燃氣供應業排炭大戶前十大包括台電那我們現在反而"},{"start":11836.943,"end":11864.899,"text":"您自己也講了排碳是減碳是大家的顯學但是我們現在反而背道而馳啊2025年我們反而要增加排碳的比例百分之八十以上是火力發電您怎麼看百分之八十火力發電是火力發電有天然氣跟煤會不會有一點點自相矛盾那這個在短期之內我們是低碳所以增加天然氣的時候可以減煤是現在是增碳啊"},{"start":11866.042,"end":11885.174,"text":"現在是增加排碳。我們增加天然氣,我們增加天然氣,那天然氣的碳排是每的一半。是增加所有能源配比的排碳。沒有,我們所有能源配比,這是為什麼我們積極要增加再生能源,就是希望能夠更多的再生能源。部長這不好笑,其實這不是一個好笑的議題啊,因為你講的,現在減碳是顯學。"},{"start":11886.154,"end":11915.254,"text":"但是我們的台電反而是背道而馳。」那最近也有這個媒體去訪問合作聯合科技董事長童志賢他有提到他說過去他是反核人士但是十年內關注氣候、地球軟化的議題陷入軟化跟反核的掙扎這兩年慢慢想清楚說地球軟化才是人類的公敵核能不是核能可能是綠能的盟友而非敵人你認同這句話嗎"},{"start":11916.395,"end":11942.097,"text":"我認為大家的意見我們都尊重所以尊重是怎麼樣?我們都尊重大家的意見對於他這樣講說核能可能是綠能的盟友你覺得這句話有講不對嗎?地球暖化是人類的公敵核能不是這句話你覺得有不對嗎?他提到軟化的重要性"},{"start":11943.829,"end":11962.748,"text":"轉化的嚴重性不是重要性,暖化的嚴重性是是是他這個要去重視是所以後本席只是請教你這邊有講到說因為今天早上也有一些委員開記者會有做這個核能的研議的一個倡議那你有提到是說要全民共識是不是"},{"start":11963.633,"end":11976.834,"text":"我想核能在臺灣就是一個最大的問題就是社會的共識是非常重要的社會重視當然重要那我請教2018年公投通過以核養綠這算不算是全民共識"},{"start":11977.827,"end":11980.108,"text":"當時是多數的一個見解沒有錯當時是多數嗎沒有錯嗎那之後經濟部有因為這樣子多數而去參考這樣子一個做法而去採用以和養綠嗎"},{"start":11997.583,"end":12011.77,"text":"其實你講所謂的全民共識根本也是一個幌子啊當時即便是通過了公投經濟部也沒有因為這樣子來去採用所以說你現在講說全民共識其實根本也沒有尊重過全民的意思啊"},{"start":12012.833,"end":12033.351,"text":"本席在這四分鐘啦部長你也已經要卸任但本席在這四分鐘我只是拿你自己的話拿你的邏輯來去請教過去到現在這兩三年的時間到底民進黨政府到底經濟部到底是我們的能源政策有沒有因此而被導致有沒有邏輯矛盾確實是有"},{"start":12034.639,"end":12062.391,"text":"我們沒有不支持臺電臺電第一線的基層人員非常辛苦本席的地區有山區有海邊有都市區我們常常也都跟臺電的人員在一起所以要比支持臺電基層工作人員我們比誰都支持但是如果錯誤的能源政策不改變的話只會累死基層公務人員謝謝好謝謝黃孟楷委員接下來我們請黃捷委員發言"},{"start":12071.271,"end":12074.252,"text":"負責經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預"},{"start":12099.579,"end":12126.956,"text":"有一個問題就是在去年這個屏東民洋大火造成四位的消防員殉職之後當然這是非常遺憾的消息所以我們各部會都在想說到底要怎麼改善才可以避免憾事發生那其實這個民洋大火大家也找出最關鍵的兩個原因一個就是因為民洋沒有如實的申報危險的物品另外一個就是民洋沒有在第一時間提供正確的圖資這兩個原因是非常非常關鍵的"},{"start":12128.422,"end":12130.623,"text":"一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21案"},{"start":12144.712,"end":12163.39,"text":"火場的第一線的時候可以馬上用這個化學雲的工廠快報的功能瞭解場區經由你們各部會的申報的系統讓他們知道說現場申報的不只是化學品的種類數量平面配置圖這些資訊都要有因為這個資訊權是非常非常重要的"},{"start":12164.111,"end":12185.733,"text":"所以接下來這個平面的配置圖到底格式有沒有一致化就非常重要但是我就看到說在我們經濟部公告的工廠危險物品的申報辦法裡面有一個平面配置圖的範例你們的公告的格式跟我們現在大家用的是完全不一樣"},{"start":12187.295,"end":12201.216,"text":"來給你看一下這個是現在我們消防署應該要有的就是GHS裡面的九大危險公告的物品在這裡都一定要寫出來可是看一下你們經濟部的配置圖完全沒有"},{"start":12202.287,"end":12229.472,"text":"也就是說你們經濟部提供的公告的格式沒有辦法在第一線讓消防員來參考我覺得這個問題蠻嚴重雖然這對你們來說是一個小小的疏漏但是對於火場的一線人員這樣的資訊越完整越一致所有的東西都借機好對他們來說才是最大的幫助喔那我看到你們這個格式啊其實你們上一次調整已經是十幾年前了"},{"start":12230.481,"end":12256.21,"text":"是這樣子嗎?如果是的話,你們這十幾年都沒有與時俱進,把基本該公告的九大類的危險物品來跟大家說明。所以請教一下部長,我們現在的這個基本的資訊到底出了什麼問題?好,委員簡單兩點來做說明。第一個部分是我們的一些機械撇測的部分。不好意思,請問你是哪一位?我是工商輔導中心的主任尹瑞隆。"},{"start":12258.318,"end":12271.015,"text":"兩點說明,第一個我們在機械配置圖的部分我們是在上次民洋大火之後上次那個憑證的那個是憑證的大火就是巨棚大火之後"},{"start":12271.977,"end":12294.876,"text":"我們去做修正的所以修正時間是三、四年的時間其實是我們配合上次大火之後去做了一個調整因應這是第一點那第二個部分你剛才有提到的是消防法規裡面的這個卡的部分那JSBS的部分是for消防法的部分所以我們這兩個部分這個資訊都會上傳到化學院去由化學院會去統籌來去做一個運用"},{"start":12295.697,"end":12297.579,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查一、三條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12315.217,"end":12335.253,"text":"那如果有任何疏漏的話務必一定要確實那最後我講一下說你們現在這個未合格的工廠稽查的狀況因為其實在這個你們上一次民洋大火之後也有成立一個專案小組來來做專案的稽查那完成檢查的加數是737家那合格加數685家也就是說其實還有大概7%的工廠是未合格的"},{"start":12342.159,"end":12357.93,"text":"那接下來這七趴到底要怎麼辦可不可以跟我們說明一下你們接下來後續怎麼輔導追蹤然後讓他盡量達成百分之百的合格因為在不管是百分之一還是任何一家只要再發生一件我們都擔當不起啦"},{"start":12358.77,"end":12382.953,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛所提的那個700多家是我們去年在2400多家的業者裡面我們配合消防單位去做聯合的一個檢查那檢查出來之後確實有7%的業者他不符合規定這些不符合的規定大概有分成兩種樣態第一個他沒有按照期限來申報第二個部分是他的申報不實我們後續都有做主案的列中列案的一個追蹤跟管好以上報告"},{"start":12383.533,"end":12409.485,"text":"好,真的非常重要,我再講一下,因為那個民洋的工廠最嚴重就是他可能私自放了很大量的物品都沒有在他提供的資訊上面所以這個消防員到現場他完全不知道現場這麼危險的化學品這個一定一定要快點去請他們改善好不好?是,我們在各部會就是在做這件事情好,謝謝好,謝謝黃捷委員那主席宣告一下我們中午不休息,延長開會時間接下來請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":12418.962,"end":12441.772,"text":"主席有請部長。部長請問,台灣人是刁民嗎?台灣人是不是刁民?當然不是嘛。華山溪的人就不可以抱怨停電嗎?華山溪人可不可以抱怨停電啊?"},{"start":12442.871,"end":12445.353,"text":"二、審查：一）行政院函請審查：一）工廠管理輔導"},{"start":12470.287,"end":12482.184,"text":"台電之水發那個新聞稿你知道嗎?你看過嗎?華山溪的不能抱怨停電啊你看過嗎?這新聞稿我事先沒有看到你沒看過嗎?你看過會拉出去嗎?"},{"start":12483.894,"end":12504.491,"text":"會不會讓他出去?部長因為這個新聞稿我是沒有看到沒關係啦沒關係啦我跟你講我再向你問下一個問題我知道台電邏輯是什麼啦就經濟部一直在告訴大家你們這些刁民有什麼好抱怨的停電次數比起這個八年期已經少很多了嘛對不對停電次數少很多嘛停電其實改善很多嘛這是你們邏輯嘛對不對是不是部長是是齁好來告訴你齁"},{"start":12509.773,"end":12535.71,"text":"我們來看看今天我們的美花統計學是怎麼算法我想請教那個我們的美花部長大安區4月18號停電772戶在你們停電裡面算停電幾次那要看有沒有超過一分鐘我們是要超過一分鐘超過一分鐘我們就會算一次然後前天我們成功國宅兩撥停電485戶你算幾次超過一分鐘"},{"start":12546.972,"end":12565.941,"text":"二十七戶的成功國宅後來一個小時後又停電了,算幾次?停電一整個下午,也是一次嘛。二十七戶算一次嘛。七百七十二戶算一次嘛。四百八十五戶算一次嘛。我想請教您2017年815停電影響多少戶?停了多少戶?"},{"start":12567.516,"end":12588.562,"text":"八一五確實是比較大面積的停電。停了592萬戶!算幾次?算幾次?那個就是那個大事故。就算一次嘛!懂了吧各位!懂美化統計學嘛!為什麼今天停電改善好棒棒啊!2021年513事件影響多少戶?多少戶停電?"},{"start":12590.523,"end":12599.489,"text":"確實是比較大462萬戶也算一次517停電影響100萬戶也算一次2022年303停電549萬戶也算一次你們的統計學非常棒27戶停電算一次然後呢500萬停電也算一次我要再跟請問部長"},{"start":12615.27,"end":12634.048,"text":"真正民眾感受到是說每年我到底停了幾分鐘比較精確嘛對不對停了多少次嘛每戶每年每戶停了多少次嘛那我跟你講台電數字喔我直接跟大家念出來給大家聽到底有沒有改善2016年號就正常輪替前啦停電每戶停電的時間幾分鐘部長16分鐘沒錯吧"},{"start":12640.523,"end":12644.284,"text":"三零三的五百四十九萬戶,算進去五百四十九萬戶停電是高達九十一分鐘,沒錯吧,台電的資料吧?"},{"start":12666.388,"end":12671.711,"text":"加起來是106分鐘啦!我告訴你106分鐘比起2016年的16分鐘是6.6倍啦!台電好棒棒啦!認知作戰統計學啦!拿這個東西騙人!還可以去酸台灣人民是刁民!你們統計學真的非常棒啦!以上!"},{"start":12694.298,"end":12720.859,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查一、二十一條之十四、三十一條之十四、三十一條之十五、四十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十五、五十一條之十"},{"start":12727.674,"end":12727.934,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12739.226,"end":12767.096,"text":"好沒關係部長我們先開始討論這樣節省會議的時間這個今天要討論的是這個工輔法的一個修正對不對當然工輔法是時間很長然後大家也針對各個法條去提出讓這個法案越加完善比如說這一次有講違反危險物品的申報義務的處罰條款的增列工廠這個加保僱主意外責任險它其實是逐步讓工廠管理輔導法事件完善但是本期今天要提一個"},{"start":12769.498,"end":12784.115,"text":"這個應該是經濟部我覺得應該早就要開始的一個案子就是有關於倉儲的管理啊這個部長我們的倉儲應該也算是經濟產業的一環對不對倉儲如果是物流業那物流業也是一環是"},{"start":12785.947,"end":12787.209,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12801.107,"end":12801.928,"text":"二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12824.831,"end":12849.603,"text":"這個危險的物品有多少量以上也都要申報,也都要管理,那這個就歸地方政府應該要去查查,等等的。」這個喔,我們都希望就是說不管你是修功夫法也好,或是其他都是希望避免這個降低災損嘛,避免它造成經濟上的一些影響。不過部長如果你有留意啊,就是這個產業最害怕的其實就是火災嘛,除了停電之外啦,停電很多人問過你了,我今天就不問你啦齁。就怕火災嘛對不對。那火災的時候這幾次,"},{"start":12851.424,"end":12875.219,"text":"大型火災上全國關注的包含美孚倉儲、PC Home領口倉庫及家樂福其實都是倉儲。難道他不應該被特案的來做檢討嗎?部長知不知道倉儲的火災佔各種火災發生的比例大概有多少?這個我倒沒有特別去統計過。你們相關的負責單位要不要救援一下?你們有研究這件事嗎?沒有特別統計。"},{"start":12878.059,"end":12894.297,"text":"這個都有地方的消防單位在做統計是啊按照這個110年的消防統計年報當然住宅的火災比例當然是最高的然後這是營業場所這是因為數量母體數量的關係但是部長看一下作業場所也就是一般大家認知的所謂的工廠在這個"},{"start":12898.28,"end":12921.294,"text":"總計411場火災,倉庫371件。」那這個不管是六都或非六都你都看得出來其實啊這個火災裡面倉庫佔總體大概我們講排除住宅排除商業啊也就是大家講的這個製造業的這一塊裡面來講其實倉庫火災的數量大概就佔40%接近一半的比例啊那部長這難道我們不應該特別針對這個地方去做一個檢討嗎?欸"},{"start":12923.877,"end":12929.901,"text":"我覺得這個部分我們在跨部會的時候而且也確實像委員講桃園發生了幾件那我我這個部分我再請我們的同仁跟消防署跟地方政府我們看對這個倉儲的這個部分因為他確實裡面會燜燒的問題那怎麼樣做更好的管理這個我來跟幾個單位來一起討論因為這個倉儲因為本身堆放大量的貨物他有活宅量"},{"start":12949.475,"end":12966.045,"text":"這火災量就是單位面積可燃物完全燃燒釋放出來熱能其實就是火災量越高其實就是基本上就易燃嘛也難處理所以比工廠還高而且不只高一點點高四到五倍啊所以如果今天都願意基於工夫法修正基於危險物品的申報大家要日漸完善的話"},{"start":12966.505,"end":12990.51,"text":"那我覺得倉儲的相關的管理規範也不能置外於這樣子的法案修正啦那按照過去的這政府裡面這個有提到倉儲兩個字比如說農藥運輸倉儲在法條裡面只是它規範的是農藥不是倉儲對不對相關的都是一些類似這樣子的一個概念所以這個自由貿易港區也是一樣肥料土地都是講倉儲是法條裡面的文字從來沒有針對整個倉儲業"},{"start":12992.31,"end":13011.537,"text":"遇到的產業困境遇到的消防法規危險物申報等等沒有一個統一的規範這我覺得是不對的啦因為按照災損比例來講他其實幾乎是跟工廠是一樣的他的風險是比工廠還高的所以我希望經濟部在這邊趕快來做個研討啦針對這你們當然講他跨部會也需要中央地方來積極協力合作但是我覺得這個這個這個項目要獨立出來被討論有專門的法律來做規定針對環保針對這個消防"},{"start":13020.14,"end":13022.301,"text":"恐怕才是對這個業界建立秩序比較積極的做法啦。」"},{"start":13050.4,"end":13073.208,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條之十四、"},{"start":13080.488,"end":13099.029,"text":"因為現場人數不足,我們先暫緩。好,那我們現在繼續進行討論事項第二案的審查工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案,現在進行廣泛討論,廣泛討論沒有人登記發言,那我們請議事人員宣讀所有條文,若有修正動議及附帶決議請一併宣讀,宣讀完畢之後再進行協商,請宣讀。"},{"start":13103.351,"end":13118.064,"text":"法行政院提案第二十八條之十四,工廠有下列情形之一者由主管機關處工廠負責人新台幣五萬元以上五百萬元以下罰還,並令其獻其改善或申報,藉其為改善或申報者得按次處罰,"},{"start":13119.065,"end":13133.499,"text":"一、違反第21條第一項規定為依期限申報危險物品。二、違反第21條第二項所定辦法中有關申報內容、申報期限之規定或申報不實。第三十一條,工廠有下列情形之一者"},{"start":13134.66,"end":13157.826,"text":"主管機關應令其限其改善補辦或申報,藉其為改善補辦或申報者處工廠負責人新台幣一萬元以上、五萬元以下罰還,能不遵行者得按次處罰,依利用其場地或建築物之一部或全部從事物品製造加工以外業務,但從事與所製造產品相關之業務者不在此限。」"},{"start":13158.466,"end":13178.675,"text":"二、違反第十六條第三項規定並跟產業類別為重新辦理工廠設立許可或增進而從事物品之製造或加工三、違反第十七條第一項第一款規定所附加之負擔四、違反第十七條第一項第三款公告之減量生產或停止生產規定"},{"start":13180.115,"end":13198.649,"text":"五、違反第十八條第一項規定為申報或提供有關資料或規避妨礙拒絕調查。六、違反第十八條第三項規定為依期限提出申報或規避妨礙拒絕調查。七、違反第23條第一項規定為按月申報其原料儲存量"},{"start":13199.977,"end":13220.064,"text":"法違反第一、第二十三條第二項所定辦法中有關申報內容之規定 本法自公佈日施行本法中華民國108年7月24日修正公佈之條文及全年全日修正之條文,其施行日期由行政院定之。"},{"start":13221.204,"end":13248.17,"text":"委員黃捷等17人提案第二十八條之十四、工廠有下列情形之一者由主管機關處工廠負責人新台幣十萬元以上五百萬元以下罰還並令其獻其改善或申報。藉其為改善或申報者得按次處罰第一款及第二款同行政院提案條文第三十一條第一項第一款至第四款同行政院提案條文"},{"start":13248.715,"end":13254.694,"text":"第五款及第六款、同行政院提案條文第七款及第八款、第三十一條之一"},{"start":13256.107,"end":13284.191,"text":"工廠有下列情形之一者由主管機關處工廠負責人新台幣五萬元以上十萬元以下罰還能不遵行者得按次處罰一違反第十八條第一項規定為申報或提供有關資料或規避妨礙拒絕調查二違反第十八條第三項規定為依期限提出申報或規避妨礙拒絕調查第三十九條同行政院提案條文"},{"start":13284.946,"end":13307.175,"text":"委員黃建斌等17人提案。第28條之十四,工廠有下列情形之一者由主管機關處工廠負責人新台幣十萬元以上、五百萬元以下罰還,並令其獻其改善或申報,藉其為改善或申報者得按次連續處罰。第一款及第二款同行政院提案條文"},{"start":13307.95,"end":13334.799,"text":"第三十一條工廠有下列情形之一者主管機關應令其限期改善、補辦或申報。藉其為改善、補辦或申報者處工廠負責人新台幣三萬元以上、十萬元以下罰還。人不遵行者的案次連續處罰。第一款至第八款同行政院提案條文。第三十九條第一項同行政院提案條文。第二項"},{"start":13336.223,"end":13346.016,"text":"本法中華民國一百零八年六月二十七日修正之條文及全年全月全日修正之條文,其施行日期由行政院定之。」"},{"start":13347.099,"end":13365.444,"text":"委員林思敏等23人提案。第22條工廠製造加工或使用危險物品達管質量以上者除應投保公共意外責任保險且須依公共意外責任保險最低保險金額規定投保僱主意外責任險"},{"start":13366.664,"end":13394.76,"text":"但已依其他法令規定投保公共意外責任保險者不在此限。前項公共意外責任保險之最低保險金額及投保辦法由中央主管機關會商中央保險主管機關定之第二十九條製造加工或使用危險物品打滾質量以上之工廠違反第二十二條第一項規定為投保公共意外責任保險與雇主意外責任嫌者"},{"start":13395.56,"end":13421.941,"text":"處工廠負責人新台幣30萬元以上、150萬元以下罰還,並令其限期改善,藉其不遵行者,得按次連續處罰。」委員王美惠等18人提案。第三十一條工廠有下列情形之一者,處工廠負責人新台幣10萬元以上、500萬元以下罰還,主管機關並得令其限期改善、補辦或申報。"},{"start":13423.591,"end":13430.032,"text":"借其仍不遵行者得案次連續處罰第一款至第三款同行政院提案條文"},{"start":13430.834,"end":13458.084,"text":"第四款違反依第十七條第一項第三款公告之減產減量規定,第五款及第六款同行政院提案條文,第七款違反第21條第一項規定為依期限申報危險物品,第八款違反依第21條第二項所定辦法中有關申報內容之規定,第九款違反第23條第一項規定為按月申報其原料儲存量,"},{"start":13458.871,"end":13486.666,"text":"第十款違反一、第二十三條第二項所定辦法中有關申報內容之規定。委員邱益穎等16人提案。第三十一條,工廠有下列情形之一者,處工廠負責人新台幣五萬元以上、五百萬元以下罰還,面得令其限期改善補辦或申報。藉其仍不遵行者,得按次連續處罰。第一款至第十款同委員王美惠等人提案。"},{"start":13487.711,"end":13499.672,"text":"委員蔡宜宇等二十人提案,第二十八條之十四同行政院提案條文,第三十一條同行政院提案條文,第三十九條同行政院提案條文,"},{"start":13500.799,"end":13522.371,"text":"委員馬文鈞等十八人提案,第28條之十四,工廠有下列情形之一者由主管機關處工廠負責人新台幣五萬元以上、五百萬元以下罰還,並令其獻期改善或申報,藉其為改善或申報者得案次連續處罰,第一款及第二款同行政院提案條文。"},{"start":13523.157,"end":13544.02,"text":"第三十一條,工廠有下列情形之一者,主管機關應令其限期改善補辦或申報,藉其為改善補辦或申報者處工廠負責人新台幣一萬元以上、五萬元以下罰還,能不遵行者,得按次連續處罰。第一款至第八款同行政院提案條文。"},{"start":13545.188,"end":13564.595,"text":"委員中嘉賓等17人提案第22條工廠製造加工或使用危險物品打管質量以上者應投保公共意外責任保險及雇主意外責任保險但已依其他法令規定投保公共意外責任保險及雇主意外責任保險者"},{"start":13565.515,"end":13594.789,"text":"不在此限,前向保險之最低保險金額及投保辦法由中央主管機關會商中央保險主管機關定之。第28條之十四同行政院提案條文,第三十一條同行政院提案條文,第三十九條同行政院提案條文,委員楊瓊英等16人提案,第二十八條之十四同行政院提案條文,第三十一條同行政院提案條文,"},{"start":13595.424,"end":13621.572,"text":"第三十九條同行政院提案條文,台灣民眾黨黨團提案第二十八條之十四,工廠有下列情形之一者由主管機關處工廠負責人新台幣十萬元以上、五千萬元以下之罰還,其比例及裁罰基準由中央主管機關令定之,並令其獻其改善或申報,藉其為改善或申報者得按次累進連續處罰。"},{"start":13623.325,"end":13650.113,"text":"第一款及第二款同行政院提案條文,第三十一條,工廠有下列情形之一者,主管機關應令其限期改善、補辦或申報,藉其為改善、補辦或申報者,處工廠負責人薪台幣三萬元以上,該場所年營業額一定比例以下之罰還,其比例及裁罰金額由中央主管機關令定之,能不遵行者得按次累計連續處罰。"},{"start":13651.943,"end":13678.3,"text":"第一款至第八款同行政院提案條文,第三十九條第一項同行政院提案條文,第二項本法中華民國一百零八年六月二十七日修正之條文及全年全月全日修正之條文,其施行日期由行政院以命令定之。」委員鄭天才等人所提修正動議。第28條之十四,工廠有下列情形之一者,"},{"start":13679.246,"end":13697.194,"text":"由主管機關依其種類管制量處工廠負責人新台幣五萬元以上五百萬元以下罰還並令其獻其改善或申報藉其為改善或申報者得案次處罰第一款及第二款同行政院提案條文宣讀完畢"},{"start":13707.635,"end":13721.484,"text":"我們現在有中交兵委員陳冠廷委員所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報那我們現在開始來處理預算解凍案請問第一案各位委員有無異議好那我們就通過第二案請問各位委員有無異議主席有異議"},{"start":13725.697,"end":13728.22,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案"},{"start":13741.816,"end":13759.648,"text":"第三十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案的全篇解論報告第20頁及21頁,針對法人科專、業界科專及學界科專的部分,曾經寫的也很傻傻。不過我看了整個解論報告裡面,這三個部分所帶動三年帶動的投資金額還有研發成果高達2510億,這是怎麼計算出來的?"},{"start":13762.91,"end":13786.104,"text":"那是不是有跟其他行政機關的效益有重疊?那麼這三項科專的三年的大概的總預算大概是多少錢?可以請經濟部的說明。以上。你們經濟部的同仁有沒有去跟委員說明啊?沒有。正常來講這個我們應該是你們早就都應該說明完了,我們今天就走完程序而已耶。"},{"start":13787.028,"end":13799.923,"text":"我先hold住你們經濟部同仁先去跟政委員說明好不好來那我們先處理第二案請問有異議沒有我們就通過第三案請問有異議有異議"},{"start":13803.818,"end":13826.818,"text":"同樣都沒有來做過說明所以主席我這邊可以補充一下因為之前報告實際上解凍案一到第一案到第十七案其實因為也都沒有來報告過所以本期可以稍微做一個補充就是針對第一案那個投資促進師還有第三、第四案都是投資促進師的然後第二案資訊處的還有第五案、第六案產業發展署的"},{"start":13828.639,"end":13842.495,"text":"然後第十三案、第十五案商業發展署的還有第十六案的產業園區管理局第十七案的地質調查及礦業管理中心可不可以之後都因為這個報告事項已經過了"},{"start":13844.017,"end":13868.32,"text":"正委員跟您說明一下第一案第十七案是書面報告送達所以應該是都在您的辦公室他們不用再特地再去跟您報告了可能那個書面報告在您辦公室可能要請您回去看一下但我們已經通過了我們就不回頭來處理這些案子了那這邊的補充要就是請這些單位再到本辦公室來進一步做一些補充好那您今天有沒有同意讓這四個案解凍然後請他們再去跟您說明好不好"},{"start":13870.742,"end":13872.824,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":13893.12,"end":13905.497,"text":"那那個主席宣告一下跟法案無相關的這個列席官員可以先行離開好那我們現在開始進行協商先看功夫法第二十二條的條文"},{"start":13911.92,"end":13914.381,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案 案"},{"start":13934.966,"end":13953.215,"text":"目前經過立法院三讀通過的法令的這相關法令裡面都沒有去訂定僱主意外責任險這是第一個部分第二個部分我們在跨部會協調的過程裡面也協調了勞動部那勞動部這邊也表示說有關有個叫做災保法"},{"start":13953.815,"end":13970.497,"text":"在保法的部分在一百一十一年已經有修法通過,已經大幅度的提高有關勞工在投保的這些相關的保障的部分,所以我們基於這兩點的一個意見,不建議有關這個僱主意外責任險納入公府法。以上報告。"},{"start":13971.831,"end":13995.868,"text":"來請問各位委員有沒有要發言的還是沒有意見我們就按照現行條文行政院那個楊瓊英委員剛剛說明了你說剛剛說明說麥克風有沒有開麥克風來換一支好不好來有有有"},{"start":13996.943,"end":13999.024,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":14012.702,"end":14040.295,"text":"是我跟委員報告一下齁其實災保法裡面的這些項目是相當的多元的部分第一個部分是叫做投保薪資原來之前的舊法是大概四萬五千八百元後來在新法的時候已經大幅度提高到七千兩百八十元那另外一個來講是在七萬七萬兩千八百元那另外來講還有投保的部分有些新的制度包括有醫療給付傷病給付私人年金"},{"start":14040.835,"end":14062.401,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 及其相關補貼的部分,這些費用其實遠比在111年的時候都有大幅度的一個提高。當然當然他是一定一定會提高嘛。本席所提問的是說這個委員所提的這個方向跟你現在所說的災保法"},{"start":14063.001,"end":14078.872,"text":"他從他這個這個有在修的增加的內容那不符合目前我們所需要的本席是要請問這個如果沒有制定在這裡也要制定在旁邊我們是結果論去推敲嘛是夠不夠本席要請教你這個"},{"start":14079.352,"end":14080.312,"text":"負責認證的部分是一種商業保險,商業保險就是視業主自己的需求再去投把,"},{"start":14096.539,"end":14114.199,"text":"那這樣子就可以橫平線去看每個產業。你講到這個就是我要問的喔所以你也要告訴雖然沒有利益在這裡但是我們要結果論也就是說勞動部那邊應該也可以去推廣你雇主還要怎麼樣保護自己也保護勞工嘛你沒有人推廣他不會去做的啦絕對不會去做的啦"},{"start":14116.522,"end":14142.404,"text":"在協調的過程裏面我們也找了金管會來那金管會也是認為說這種是屬於商業保險他們本來就本來就在做宣導對啦本身已經跟你討論到後面的作為嘛當然他是自主性但是我們政府可以去鼓勵之嘛宣導之嘛好不好好來請問各位委員那如果沒有意見我們是不是就照原條文好謝謝來接下來我們請看第28條之14"},{"start":14148.117,"end":14175.49,"text":"二十八條之十四我們在原來的對照表以外我們還有那個鄭天才委員的修正動議我們也就一併討論那二十八條之十四大部分大概我們都是以那個委員的鄭天才委員是有再多加幾個字就跟那個行政院的版本不太一樣就是依其種類管制量處工廠負責人"},{"start":14177.278,"end":14200.283,"text":"法環 。」那請問各位就是那個長髮索還是雲處長要先說明我還是感謝委員提案的一個內容那第一個我先跟委員報告就是說按照目前工廠管理輔導法第二十一條的規定裡面就是"},{"start":14200.603,"end":14229.85,"text":"就一些危險品第二項的規定裡面就做一些的範圍、種類、管制量跟申報的方式就要主管機關去訂定之。那有關你所提的這個種類跟它的這些範圍來講其實我們本來就已經含括在我們的裡面來講再來就是說有關一些要處理一些違規的樣態那違規的樣態的種類是相當多所以我們是覺得維持現有的條文就已經足可以應付目前可以發生的這樣的一個處理的事情以上報告"},{"start":14230.51,"end":14244.053,"text":"這個我稍微問一下我早上一次去有提到啦如果我們把一些原先的這些德勒令停業的部分停業跟復工這個我們把它加入到這裡來做更強一個規定的部分經濟部的看法呢"},{"start":14245.097,"end":14272.28,"text":"跟委員報告,這個部分本來在我們工福法第21條的規定裡面的第三項就已經有規定,那我稍微稍微念一下,21條第三項有提到工廠製造加工危險物品本來就要善盡安全跟管理的責任,如果發生重大的環境污染,重大的一個公安影響到附近的工廠跟民眾安全,直轄市縣市政府也就是我們的地方政府本來就可以勒令他停工,"},{"start":14272.72,"end":14280.397,"text":"那現在目前的這個法令之前都有用過之前在六清發生大火的時候雲林縣政府就有利用這樣的法規去做執行"},{"start":14283.886,"end":14286.088,"text":"我們先請楊全英文接下來是張琦凱委員"},{"start":14316.374,"end":14344.813,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案件事項。此案件確實是一個申報上的一個缺失。那確實過去在從公服法99年施行到現在的過程裡面,只有名揚著這個事故造成的傷亡,而且造成的事故的層面是最大,過去幾乎都沒有發生過。所以這個也是凸顯到有些工廠他在管理危險物品上面的一個不周詳。所以才讓我們這一次確實要把我們的這個裁罰比例提高到一百倍,將來重視這樣的法規。"},{"start":14346.554,"end":14371.228,"text":"那其實這樣的法規其實我們已經就我們剛才所提到我們已經廣泛要去辦理21場的說明會讓全國的業者都要了解這樣的一個聲報的一個重要性而且也讓地方政府能夠掌握我們工廠的一個危險品才能夠去準備相關的一個救災跟應變跟防災的一個部分二十一場是嗎?什麼時候要開始辦?"},{"start":14372.961,"end":14374.102,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":14390.197,"end":14418.217,"text":"那個對象是什麼?謝謝,因為這一個條文...近期就會舉辦,近期就會舉辦。詳細的時間我剛才跟...就如趙偉所講...詳細時間我是不是請那個...對,好,請你們再給各位委員...好,來,請張祺凱委員,下一位是鄭天才委員。謝謝,因為這個條文很重要,攸關人命關天,非常重要。而且以前經驗非常的慘痛,所以我把金額調高到最高要到五千萬的罰款,"},{"start":14419.358,"end":14424.999,"text":"凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案"},{"start":14450.243,"end":14463.315,"text":"我再重複一次拿掉原來的倒數第三行的一業者的這個營業比例這個計算然後約束工廠的申報這拿掉改成暗刺累進聯繫處罰就可以了在說明欄好謝謝"},{"start":14465.234,"end":14487.767,"text":"本院委員報告其實委員應該對產業非常清楚因為在彰化縣就有擔任過工策會的這個總幹事對彰化的這個中小企業是相當了解的那我必須要說明一下就是說這個法所對應的業者其實也是非常多都是中小企業所以我們在訂法的過程裡面確實要去橫平它的一些樣態還有工廠的一些形式所以我們才會比較建議說"},{"start":14489.007,"end":14516.364,"text":"就剛才所講的我們訂的額度已經增加為一百倍就是從原來一萬到五萬變成五萬到五百萬的一個層次那另外來講我們也是非常委員所提到的把一些營業額的部分考慮到這營業額的部分去把它拿掉這個也是確實是需要的因為我們知道我們的工廠他是要有個事業主體所以可能同一家公司會有好幾家工廠這樣子會讓我們在計算這個營業的時候在第一線的縣市政府就會出現問題所以這個確實在拿掉上面來講"},{"start":14518.405,"end":14543.974,"text":"是有助於後續地方政府的一個執法的。」以上說明。好,來接下來請曾天才委員。抱歉抱歉,我看大部分的委員的提案都是寫500吧,是不是?上限是500。他們是1到100。所以您如果是……5000太高是不是?不是不是,您如果是10萬的話,你的100就是1000。OK。等一下我們到那個金額的時候再來回頭來討論好不好?OKOK,那那個連續法,抱歉抱歉,那個累進連續法這個要留著喔,好不好?"},{"start":14548.215,"end":14564.055,"text":"我先請鄭天才委員發言因為跟委員報告我們本來那個就我們本來那個就是給案次連續處罰所以其實機制上跟委員的提案內容是相當一致的不好意思以前案次常常都是沒有累進吧我現在是很明確就是說你罰了以後你不改進"},{"start":14564.716,"end":14588.489,"text":"我下次我就要加上去一直加上去累進上去很明確要求要累進我跟委員報告就是說其實我們在一些定一些裁罰基準的時候本來就會考慮到他的違規樣態是不是累犯這個都會去考慮那我是可不可以請委員讓我們授權我們在後續在執行面上面的時候再去處理這些這些問題那另外一個剛才來講我必須跟委員澄清一點委員其實已經有看掉"},{"start":14588.969,"end":14610.861,"text":"我們這個因為是工廠管理輔導法法的對象是工廠負責人其實工廠負責人不定是等於企業負責人所以這個法的可能是廠長所以如果你真的法給他金額很大他不知道怎麼生活都有可能是一個這樣的一個問題所以這個要這樣的一個說明那個案次跟累進的部分我是不是請法務法務法務有沒有法務在不在"},{"start":14618.548,"end":14638.881,"text":"來,趕快啊!那請您說明啊!來,來,請說明。不好意思。案資跟累計呢,通常我們這邊不會有什麼意見,只要主管機關他在立法說明裡面有特殊的考量,解釋清楚這不會有什麼問題。然後集聚的部分之前我們也...喔,是。"},{"start":14641.656,"end":14657.914,"text":"法務部的這樣解釋有點概念上模糊,有累進這兩個字是不是代表第二次處罰的要比第一次還要重?就是有累進這兩個字跟沒有累進這兩個字到底差在哪裡,這個法務部是不是要說明?"},{"start":14665.237,"end":14666.197,"text":"財法基準 財法基準 財法基準 財法基準"},{"start":14694.888,"end":14712.881,"text":"曾經有犯過,那如果有犯過,這個對他的處罰就會加重。那我們這個裁法基準也會在這個法之後也會把它定出來。那以上做一個補充。好,來這樣了解。來那個鄭天才委員。鄭天才委員發言完之後我們就停止討論。那個楊瓊英委員發言完之後我們就停止討論了。好,謝謝。"},{"start":14722.413,"end":14747.914,"text":"剛才這個經濟部的說明明洋不是只有明洋啊如果按照你們今天的報告我只選的時候有提到嘛這個你們很很詳細的去清查了之後光光是張斌產業延期就有145家沒有申報"},{"start":14749.454,"end":14777.695,"text":"然後草報有65家要補申報這很多這是好運好運沒有發生事情所以那個觀念要先釐清所以用詞也很重要好就是因為用詞很重要所以因為這次的處罰修正這次的修正就成為你剛說的提高100倍五萬跟"},{"start":14778.513,"end":14806.599,"text":"五百萬這個差距倍數很大在這樣的情形之下主管機關不同的承辦人不同的什麼到底五萬還是十萬還是一百萬根據什麼本來如果本來啊最標準的立法是要定一個授權的你剛提的那個工廠管理法二十一條那個不是跟這個沒有關係"},{"start":14808.007,"end":14819.294,"text":"我剛看了21條工廠管理輔導法21條他是在你的料你要申報你要申報哪些哪些那如何處罰"},{"start":14821.311,"end":14829.139,"text":"凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等22項管理輔導凍結案等21項管理輔導凍結案等21項管理輔導"},{"start":14845.68,"end":14848.483,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":14866.726,"end":14886.038,"text":"市長,討論到現在,大家的概念都越來越集中。我個人還是認為,我同意剛剛那個部長所說的,就是你們自己在事宜細則當中去定。但是呢,因為這個五萬到五百萬,它總是有個亂取,我也贊成是以暗刺。"},{"start":14886.718,"end":14908.232,"text":"那這個案次也包括在這個五到五百萬的這個論舉當中你們怎麼樣再細心細則去定定他的自由新政到底要多少那但是我強調一點就是說不是以他的總額數字為最主要因素而是他的行為他的行為反而是比他的數數字還更重要"},{"start":14909.229,"end":14914.172,"text":"凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結"},{"start":14935.384,"end":14938.185,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":14947.332,"end":14949.113,"text":"負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責"},{"start":14969.125,"end":14997.734,"text":"我看起來大概就是張祺凱委員就是臺灣民眾黨的是十萬到五千萬其他各個委員的大部分都是跟行政院的提案是一樣的那我剛有特別跟張委員說明就是說他們的裁判是一到一百所以您如果是以十萬做基底的話你的上限是一千萬那如果是回到我們原來剛剛提的包括行政院的版本跟其他各委員的版本是五到五百萬"},{"start":14998.995,"end":15001.969,"text":"我想這個大概是比較大的公約數我不曉得張委員您"},{"start":15004.137,"end":15029.792,"text":"我可以尊重董事委員的意見,看什麼找一個比較折中子好不好好那我們就按照這個行政院委呃行政院的版本通過好不好就是5到500萬那這個是可以按次按次裁罰那這個裁罰的基準就交由那個經濟部去訂定整個這個施行的細則好不好好謝謝來接下來我們就接下來是第29條"},{"start":15032.838,"end":15036.247,"text":"有林思明委員有一個第29條的條文"},{"start":15039.875,"end":15061.886,"text":"本院委員報告就是說我們剛才已經有討論第29條僱主意外責任險22條已經僱主意外責任險沒有訂定的話那29條的這樣的一個罰款的一個調整就沒有需要了是我們22條沒有處理沒有修訂的話那我們第29條就不處理了好謝謝那接下來請看第31條主席"},{"start":15067.312,"end":15070.554,"text":"來,那個王美惠委員主席,在這裡主席,在這裡感謝我們今天的教委可以擺這個工廠法,跟我有相伴,我覺得本席是因為考量這個情節的情況不一樣,工廠的規範也不一樣,所以我們必要啦,看看喔,提高本來是"},{"start":15094.286,"end":15100.333,"text":"一萬之五萬．我是提供五萬之五百萬．以下會發放因為我認為若沒有寒期會改善的事我認為應該是要到那個時間要繼續人又發衣服"},{"start":15115.796,"end":15142.137,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會提案的部分是全面把31條違規的所有的樣態都調高。那這裡我要跟委員報告就是這個影響層面更大。因為31條的這些違規樣態,它有幾種樣態。第一種是說他可能忘記他沒有來補辦登記,或者是他沒有來辦理工廠的一些變更。其實這個都是很小很小的一些違規樣態。或者是說他在做工廠的時候,他的廠房"},{"start":15142.858,"end":15167.591,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案件的確不準確,並沒有準確的範圍內要去多增加的一個面積去做製造架工。所以這些東西在一般的違規案件來講是非常的輕微的。那我們是希望說這一次的修法能夠是focus在危險物品的部分,讓我們去重視這個名揚案件之後,社會各界應該去重視危險物品的一個聲炮,這樣也能夠讓地方政府在消防救災上面可以更加的完備。"},{"start":15170.287,"end":15174.49,"text":"因為我認為我們會討論的就是民營工廠,我們說實在,想過你說有的工廠是說還沒一個月收回去,但是它裡面的東西凍的,在我們的標準值,低三十倍啦。所以在這裡我覺得你們要去詳細去監督、去注意跟地方配合啦。"},{"start":15194.96,"end":15201.483,"text":"因為說實在,這個我們不容許再發生這個事情啊。議長來請教一下吼,第三十一條跟第二十八條就是剛剛討論的這個處罰規定那他如果已經處罰了法人的話那對工廠負責人還會同時處罰嗎?還是說只處罰一個就不會處罰第二個?"},{"start":15224.936,"end":15227.247,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":15230.182,"end":15254.383,"text":"第三十一條是針對負責人嗎?那二十八條之十四也是負責人嗎?這兩個是不同的法規因為我們這次修法已經把原來在功福法三十一條第七款跟第八款的部分我們把它獨立拉出來到二十八條之十四然後再把裁法的那個法額提高那對法人有罰則嗎?因為我們功福法針對的對象就是工廠負責人"},{"start":15260.094,"end":15280.194,"text":"來 請問各位 美惠委員你有沒有堅持沒有的話我們就照行政院的版本好不好因為目前看起來各個委員的提案都是跟行政院的版本一致啦那我覺得可能在那個他們的那個裁法的事情裁法的那個細則裡面我們也授權他們去更詳細的"},{"start":15282.619,"end":15286.702,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算"},{"start":15305.066,"end":15306.188,"text":"三十一條之一是黃捷委員的版本,請行政院說明。"},{"start":15323.563,"end":15343.682,"text":"凍結委員的提案的部分其實我們也有事先跟黃捷委員辦公室先做溝通這第一點那第二個部分委員所提到的是希望說針對有一些工廠是不是規避檢查的部分來提高法則的部分那經過我們的調查最近五年來其實我們跟地方政府的了解並沒有工廠有"},{"start":15345.724,"end":15366.5,"text":"拒絕行政單位去做檢查的,所以我們是建議說既然也沒有發生過,我們覺得說這個法條再去修正的必要性應該是相當有限的。以上說明。好,那我們是不是大家同意第31條之一,我們就不予修正。同意。是啦。"},{"start":15368.627,"end":15372.949,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十九條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":15397.797,"end":15418.184,"text":"來,那我們請宣讀協商結論。宣讀協商結論。第22條不予處理,維持現行法條文。第二十八條之十四,照行政院提案及委員提案與行政院提案內容相同通過。第二十九條不予處理,維持現行法條文。"},{"start":15418.684,"end":15433.267,"text":"第三十一條照行政院提案及委員提案與行政院版本相同提案通過第三十一條之一不予處理維持現行法條文第三十九條照行政院提案及委員提案相同版本通過宣讀完畢"},{"start":15436.875,"end":15438.777,"text":"討論事項所列工廠管理輔導法條…"},{"start":15452.335,"end":15481.025,"text":"可以照綱的行政院的版本過,可是在執法的在那個﹖這個我們在執法有訂定那我跟委員報告一下你剛才你之前那個修法我們確實是有認真去看的那其實你所訂的部分是在23條的一些所謂的再利用就是利用這些廢棄物的這些原料來做再利用其實這個我們的管制是相當嚴謹全國大概只有20家工廠每個月都在﹖人家就不是在問你這個人家在問你"},{"start":15482.806,"end":15483.307,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查"},{"start":15495.982,"end":15503.189,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案 審查完畢。禮具審查報告提報院會討論,請問需不需要交由黨團協商?"},{"start":15519.292,"end":15523.778,"text":"條文相關的法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理。本日議程處理已完畢。散會。謝謝大家。」"},{"start":15535.748,"end":15539.652,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":15568.76,"end":15583.597,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條文修正草案 案。"}]}},{"id":"15841","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15841","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373d1c34ab709cdaffb08bd03a951da4504b3be8d109af184be469b1e397c17565825ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案4案。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-24","start_time":"2024-04-24T08:30:14+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:31:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":14446,"委員發言時間":"08:30:14 - 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字幕組"},{"start":1842.25,"end":1854.619,"text":"報告委員會出席委員13人以達法定人數現在開會本週三、四一次會首先我們進行報告事項請議事人員宣讀上次會議議事錄議事錄"},{"start":1864.947,"end":1888.578,"text":"中央民國103年4月18日上午9時至12時1分地點本院群賢樓10會議室出席委員萬滿林委員等15人列席委員王洪威委員等22人列席人員4月17日教育部部長潘文忠率同有關人員4月18日教育部政務次長劉孟琦率同有關人員財政部副稅署專門委員王俊龍請政院主席總署公務預算署專門委員吳明修"},{"start":1889.258,"end":1915.488,"text":"金融監督管理委員會保險局專門委員王啟華主席、科招及委員志恩4月17日報告時想依宣讀上會議事錄決定議事錄確定。二、教育部部長潘文忠列席就教改30年廣設大學及技專升格如今面臨診病退場之問題及對策進行專題報告．並備質詢。本人已曾由委員萬美玲的20人提出質詢。軍警教育部部長潘文忠及相關人員及其答覆說明"},{"start":1915.948,"end":1943.429,"text":"六、委員莊瑞、熊等5人提出書面質詢決定一、報告解詢到完畢二、委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報三、對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆4月18日討論事項一、審查委員科徵等16人凝聚大學法第35條條文修正草案案二、審查委員科徵等16人凝聚專科學校法第44條條文修正草案案"},{"start":1944.049,"end":1960.071,"text":"三、審查委員柯真等17人凝聚國民體育法修正草案等4案僅進行詢答本議程採綜合詢答由委員洪孟楷等16人提出質詢軍經教育部政務次長劉孟琦及相關人員即席答覆說明"},{"start":1960.572,"end":1981.045,"text":"另有委員吳春成等二人提出書面質詢決議一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員所提書面質詢或相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報三、對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分,僅相關機關建樹與書面答覆四、大學法、專科學校法、國民體育法相關修正草案,令定期繼續審查通過臨時提案四項宣讀完畢"},{"start":1987.871,"end":2006.034,"text":"由於在場人有委員未達一決人數三人所以我們意識度暫不確定今天的議程有兩個首先是邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會來列席"},{"start":2006.594,"end":2010.698,"text":"好 那我們首先來介紹在場的官員我們核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽"},{"start":2033.886,"end":2049.014,"text":"還有我們核能安全委員會兼國家原子能科技研究院副主任委員跟董事長張欣還有我們外交部臺灣日本關係協會的專門委員劉拓還有我們交通部中央氣象署陳家平署長"},{"start":2058.069,"end":2082.641,"text":"交通部行政司盧清泉檢任記政交通部台灣港務公司謝志南處長衛生福利部食品藥物管理署林金富副署長農業部漁業署陳建佑副署長農業部水產試驗所張可陽組長"},{"start":2086.664,"end":2108.234,"text":"海洋委員會國家海洋研究院代理主任秘書張志維行政院主計總署公務預算處廖玉琳專門委員好 謝謝謝謝以上的官員來列席那我們現在就來請河安會陳主任委員來進行報告時間10分鐘"},{"start":2120.988,"end":2146.598,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生大家好今天很榮幸代表核能安全委員會並協同各單位主管向大院進行《我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應》專題報告以及113年公務預算的解凍報告在此感謝大院委員對本會各項工作的支持及指教"},{"start":2147.699,"end":2168.917,"text":"首先就我國周遭海域含氚廢水的監控與因應進行報告因應日本含氚廢水的排放本會邀集6個部會共同組成跨部會的因應平台推動各項準備跟因應措施目前已經召開17次的跨部會的因應會議"},{"start":2170.97,"end":2193.016,"text":"因應日本長達30年輔導含氚廢水的排放作業河安會主持跨部會國家海域計畫落實執行排放前的技術整備排放後的應對措施以及持續規劃未來長期監控以守護我國海域的輻射安全"},{"start":2194.332,"end":2209.64,"text":"而為更進一步提升檢測量能另外在去年開始執行生物栓檢測量能提升計畫將在今年6月擴增國內生物栓檢測實驗室由1間到3間檢測量能由每年500件到每年2000件"},{"start":2216.909,"end":2243.581,"text":"我國因應日本含氚廢水的排放在跨部會合作下已經有明確有效的因應策略以下簡要說明源頭掌握、擴散預報、強化監測跟資訊公開等四項措施的整備、因應跟精進作為在源頭掌握部分核安會持續跟外交部協力"},{"start":2245.168,"end":2272.583,"text":"密切掌握日本含氚廢水的管制動態迄今已經4次赴日本福島實地考察並跟日本辦理了21次視訊交流會議日本迄今已經執行4個批次的排放並在本月19號開始第5批次的排放核安會均持續關注相關動態跟安全監控並適時發布第16則的執行"},{"start":2275.441,"end":2296.639,"text":"及時資訊。禾安會跟交通部合作以10年的歷史洋流資料進行案例評估先行瞭解日本排放的作業對台灣海域的影響仍在背景變動範圍之內此外每天均提供未來7天的擴散預報的分析"},{"start":2298.362,"end":2308.923,"text":"目前各區域的海水氚濃度的影響皆在WHO飲水標準的1%以下屬於安全正常範圍的綠燈"},{"start":2311.567,"end":2329.956,"text":"另外考量中國核電廠多分部在台灣海峽沿岸將持續精進擴散評估的分析能力預計今年第三季執行中國核電廠穿排放的案例分析以完善海域預警的評估能力"},{"start":2332.142,"end":2345.23,"text":" 112年河安會跟農業部、衛福部、海委會等跨部會合作執行海水、漁獲物等各項海域樣本的取樣檢測共完成4270件的檢測結果均無異常"},{"start":2350.423,"end":2375.448,"text":"針對海水監測河安會更積極跟國家實驗研究院海洋中心共同合作其結合濾淨號海洋研究船的資源擴大監測的頻次跟範圍另外也將逐步建立碳14跟碳129的分析能力精進海域輻射的監測技術"},{"start":2378.42,"end":2398.235,"text":"為落實資訊公開、河岸會建置放射性物質海域擴散海洋資訊平台作為日本含氚廢水排放相關資訊的正確傳遞的窗口目前仍持續精進以圖像化、科普化的目標提供更親民的使用者介面"},{"start":2399.673,"end":2419.054,"text":"另外也結合河安一點通APP製作科普圖卡並在河安會舉辦的科普展中推廣政府對氚水排放應對的科普知識接下來,針對本會113年預算解凍報告進行摘要的說明"},{"start":2420.339,"end":2437.151,"text":"本會組織改造後預算原額的增加是因為務管局的移入以及安置核研所人員所致而預算原額的空缺將依法臨步以支持支援核安管制技術的能量"},{"start":2438.536,"end":2461.111,"text":"對於國研院的監督將會依照績效評鑒的辦法結合外部專家學者以及專案定期查核評鑒國研院的營運績效確保各項專案計畫的執行成效。核安會亦嚴格執行國內用過核子燃料乾除的安全管制"},{"start":2462.099,"end":2481.026,"text":"包括要求台電定期辦理核一室外乾除設施的統合演練並執行核二乾除複箱設備組件的製造檢查以持續督促台電按期程推動核一、核二、核三廠室內乾除的新建計劃。"},{"start":2483.015,"end":2498.9,"text":"我國高放儲置的計畫分成五個階段預計在2055年完工目前已經進入第二個階段候選場址的評選跟核定至於場址特定型的地下實驗室則規劃在場址詳細調查跟試驗的第三階段執行"},{"start":2504.79,"end":2530.1,"text":"核安會已經制定安全管理的規則跟場址的規範並且要求台電應該定期進行最終處置的安全論證滾動檢討修正處置計畫以跟國際接軌我國已經建立境外發生核災的應應機制包括建置境外輻射程的影響評估系統"},{"start":2531.983,"end":2559.906,"text":"環境輻射監測站以及激動輻射偵測儀等另外針對不同的情境亦執行境外核災的模擬演練並且跟衛福部、農業部合作辦理農漁畜牧產品飲用水、食品檢測的管制工作以落實各項的整備作業國園院的六佛化有安定化處理跟處置的計畫"},{"start":2561.26,"end":2590.061,"text":"目前已經取得裝載容器的使用許可預計在今年年底運送到英國而國研院的迴旋加速器的運維跟核一製藥中心的人力配置部分已經逐年進行30 MeV迴旋加速器老化元件的汰換運轉力已經提升到90%以上至於核一藥物中心今年一將藉由院聘人力"},{"start":2591.212,"end":2601.648,"text":"在補充以穩定國內核醫藥物的供應。核安會持續運用新媒體的傳播、跨部、跨單位的合作"},{"start":2602.751,"end":2626.263,"text":"自辦策展的多元管道推廣原子能科普教育此外藉由全民參與事務諮詢會委員所提供的建議調整公眾參與以及溝通的作為以增進民眾參與原子能公共事務的意願針對我國周遭海域含氚廢水的監測與因應"},{"start":2628.715,"end":2654.753,"text":"核安會將持續透過跨部會的合作以四項的配套措施確保海域環境跟民眾的食品安全此外亦持續執行核安、福安、放射性廢棄物的安全處理等安全管制工作經濟原子能技術的研發拓展相關的民生應用以落實資訊公開跟民眾參與"},{"start":2658.069,"end":2686.525,"text":"以上報告敬請各位委員先進不吝指教並請同意預算解凍以立本會各項工作的推動跟延續再次感謝委員的支持謝謝好 謝謝陳主任委員的口頭報告那我們先來介紹現場的委員我們看到洪孟凱委員還有我們柯志恩召委"},{"start":2689.048,"end":2689.448,"text":"衛福部林副署長報告時間5分鐘"},{"start":2713.7,"end":2731.076,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士、先生今天大院第11屆第1會期會議衛務部曾邀列席報告深感榮幸衛務部知就我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應提出說明"},{"start":2731.917,"end":2758.136,"text":"敬請各位委員不吝會議指教首先,衛務部對日本食品輻射安全管理並持保障國人健康及食品安全與安心原則持續關注此議題並積極與跨部會共同合作採取嚴謹監控措施並持續關注保障國人食品安全與安心"},{"start":2759.98,"end":2769.244,"text":"因應日本自112年8月24日起以海洋排放方式處置福島第一核電廠的核災含氚廢水"},{"start":2771.124,"end":2789.313,"text":"第一點國家原子能科技研究院以及本部食品藥物管理署已於112年公開生物穿檢驗方法目前食品中穿的檢驗系由國家原子能科技研究院協助執行"},{"start":2790.533,"end":2819.278,"text":"該院並於113年度輔導核能安全委員會輔射偵測中心與高雄市政府衛生局建置食品中氚檢驗之實驗室及相關檢測技術第二點本部自111年起執行日本水產品放射性氚含量背景值調查日本開始排放前"},{"start":2820.694,"end":2845.795,"text":"本部的抽樣檢驗件數為52件日本排放後迄今抽樣檢驗為127件均未檢出穿相關的資訊並公開於國家原子能科技研究院與核能安全委員會合作製作與維護的放射物質海域擴散海洋資訊平台"},{"start":2847.782,"end":2871.377,"text":"跨部會輻射監測整合儀表板以及在衛福部食品藥物管理署網站的日本食品管理工作專區之最新日本輸入食品輻射監測資訊本部陳大院各委員之指教及監督在此敬致謝誠並請各位委員持續予以支持以上謝謝"},{"start":2877.123,"end":2881.193,"text":"謝謝衛福部林副署長的口頭報告接下來請農業部陳副署長來進行報告時間5分鐘"},{"start":2893.541,"end":2913.566,"text":"主席、各位委員、先生、女士、農業部在這邊奉邀出席大院第11屆第1會期群體委員會的一個部分報告我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控及因應案以下緊究該議題的部分敬請各位委員不吝指教"},{"start":2914.506,"end":2928.803,"text":"民國100年311福島核災後我們本部立即派試驗船到北太平洋秋刀漁場進行所謂的海水及魚體的採樣檢測結果皆在標準背景值以下"},{"start":2929.364,"end":2958.644,"text":"然後後續的部分與核安會的部分持續對於我國周遭的海水、海域還有遠洋的經濟性漁獲對於涉134、137進行監測從福島核災期到4月15號的部分共檢測了7308件包括涉6926件以及川382件的部分皆沒有輻射污染情形"},{"start":2960.025,"end":2975.222,"text":"106年起本部的水產試驗所的部分以核安慰在周遭海域的部分針對20個點去做所謂的涉134、137及穿輻射物質的檢測到112年的部分提升到62個站點"},{"start":2977.004,"end":2999.494,"text":"結果都是符合標準的113年的部分因應試驗船的太舊換新還有就是所謂的漁船授訓的需求目前暫時改為15個策戰但是是用所謂的一計一次每一週一次的部分改成每週一次的部分來維持原來的數量那下半年的部分就可以維持原來的規劃的部分繼續進行採樣"},{"start":3001.926,"end":3019.899,"text":"二、本部的部分是參與所謂的三配套四原則裡面的所謂的強化監測跟資訊公開的部分來做共同執行首先就強化監測措施的部分本部加入這樣子的一個跨部會平台的部分由核安會這邊來主責測驗"},{"start":3022.62,"end":3044.108,"text":"本部的部分負責臺灣周遭海域及北太平洋公海的漁獲及海水檢測來捍衛漁民的權益跟保障國人的食與安全在沿境海規劃的部分從110年的500件的部分增加到112年的3000件而且我們採樣的漁種是按月份"},{"start":3044.828,"end":3066.274,"text":"分為常態性的漁種跟季節性的漁種來確保樣本的多樣性跟所謂的代表性的部分那在北太平洋公海的漁場援養漁貨的部分包括秋刀魚的部分也是從110年的50件到112年的150件而且已經含括所有所謂的漁船的部分"},{"start":3067.034,"end":3083.099,"text":"在112年8月24號在排放氚廢水以後那進到所謂的相關的部分我們在9月11號已經派船到太平洋公海的部分去對於海水跟漁獲的部分去做採樣分析結果均無色異常"},{"start":3084.479,"end":3108.453,"text":"配合核安會的部分在做所謂的生物氚檢測量能提升計畫的部分我們未來的部分也在113年會將氚的檢測的部分從150件提升到500件那對於資訊公開這一塊的部分我們配合核安會然後希望能加強跟漁民的風險溝通藉由漁民的"},{"start":3109.473,"end":3134.155,"text":"做談會以及相關的這些的過程的部分我們辦理了很多場次的一個說明然後並依照跨部會平台的部分在我們的所謂的漁業署的輻射專區的網站的部分還有就是與核安會的部分去做執行平台的連結透由所謂的儀表板的部分每週二固定相關的檢測"},{"start":3135.276,"end":3161.118,"text":"那決議的部分就是未來我們會強化繼續做這樣子的一個行為一旦有發掘到檢測異常的部分我們會去追蹤漁獲的流向依食安法啟動相關的封存以及對於追蹤漁船商的作業的形態那最後的部分會依照這個指定的部分去對於他做即時的檢驗那農業部的報告敬請各位委員先進指教謝謝"},{"start":3166.752,"end":3180.62,"text":"謝謝陳副署長的口頭報告那我們現在進行綜合詢答每位出席委員質詢6分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記截止時間為10點30分委員如有臨時提案也請於10點30分前提出並以本會委員林倩啟委員質詢結束後我們進行解凍案跟臨時提案的處理"},{"start":3193.987,"end":3202.916,"text":"處理提案時若提案委員跟聯署委員不在場原例不予處理首先就請發言登記第一位的洪孟楷委員質詢主席謝謝 麻煩請陳東陽主委好 有請陳主委"},{"start":3220.542,"end":3234.627,"text":"主委好主委我們最近本期有看到一個新聞是我們這個核碩聯合科技的董事長童子賢他也是之前有被傳出說可能會是準總統賴清德最佳的革魁人選"},{"start":3235.427,"end":3260.072,"text":"當然他最後沒有接任這個閣僱不過他有提到這個缺電危機坦誠講說30年前他是熱心的反核人士但10年前關注地球暖化的議題陷入地球暖化跟反核間的掙扎這兩三年慢慢想清楚地球暖化才是人類的公敵核能不是因為核能可以是綠能的盟友而非敵人所以如果說能源不當"},{"start":3260.812,"end":3273.988,"text":"使用能源不當將會造成無法挽回的地球暖化摧毀地球文明核能可以是一種技術安全係數就好像是航空業的安全技術可以好好提升好好控管這一方法主委認同嗎是的認同認同哪一個部分"},{"start":3281.657,"end":3292.488,"text":"他是可以非常仔細的去維持他的安全但是還是有一些例外人為疏失、天災"},{"start":3294.551,"end":3311.701,"text":"那撇開這一些 任何事情 任何發電也都有人為疏失跟天災嘛當然藍媒有人為疏失跟天災 燃氣有人為疏失跟天災但是地球暖化是人類的公敵 核能不是 你認同嗎我想這個是一個"},{"start":3319.189,"end":3339.189,"text":"不同人有不同的見解如果我們大家都是看法一致那社會上就有共識所以這個其實社會上我剛才在外面記者答詢我就強調就是說其實我們還是要盡可能的在某一個程度上盡可能的"},{"start":3339.724,"end":3364.244,"text":"打到社會的共識2018年以核兩月公投獲得近600萬選民的支持這算不算社會共識如果社會有一定的共識超過半數的民眾出來投票2018年以核養綠公投通過了算不算社會共識"},{"start":3365.64,"end":3371.883,"text":"本席跟你討論技術科學你跟我討論政論節目主委你是核能安全委員會主委還是政論節目主持人"},{"start":3392.455,"end":3419.574,"text":"我是講我們社會上大家的看法大家來這邊備詢好好就事論事是的核能可以是綠能的盟友而非敵人這句話認不認同綠能它有比較嚴謹的定義那麼核能它其實是一個低碳的能源那這個是毫無疑問的那麼我其實100%贊同"},{"start":3422.11,"end":3445.768,"text":"但是贊同什麼贊同他是低碳能源是有助於減碳比藍煤低碳比燃氣低碳比火力發電低碳更不會造成空氣汙染也不會造成地球暖化是這樣嗎是的來 主委那既然這樣子可是現在的執政黨當然有推所謂的非核家園2025"},{"start":3447.509,"end":3473.277,"text":"那看起來非核家園2025又可能跳票因為能源配比沒有辦法達成嘛但另外一個部分上一次我們的召委也有質詢過就說非核小組所謂行政院非核小組的開會居然3年沒有開了你有沒有注意到這個事情是的非核小組的運作要點裡面規定應該要多久開一次會"},{"start":3477.22,"end":3487.41,"text":"兩個月開一次會必要的時候可以召開臨時會這是非核小組運作要點裡面清楚說明最後一次開會是什麼時候110年的4月28日距離現在剛好真的就是三年了"},{"start":3502.099,"end":3529.692,"text":"所以3年裡面沒有開會再來我想請教非核小組的運作要點裡面討論推動協調溝通的事務有包括哪一些其中重要的部分我不問你細微末節問你重要的部分研究協調推動有包括哪一些它包含最重要的推動中期暫時儲存設施"},{"start":3531.854,"end":3557.795,"text":"核廢料的處理還有還有什麼全民共識沒有全民共識啦拜託裡面還有包括核電廠的廚藝啊核電廠的廚藝是不是很重要的議題應該要討論應該要溝通過去這三年沒有開會過去核電廠有沒有廚藝有有廚藝今年核三廠一號機是不是七月到期可能會停止運轉"},{"start":3559.329,"end":3584.878,"text":"那既然過去三年有核二廠的一號機、二號機停機今年七月有核三廠一號機要停機那結果那麼重要的核電廠要除役的一個過程裡面非核小組完全不開會主委認同嗎主委可以接受嗎你甚至在裡面作業要點裡面都還沒有核安會啊"},{"start":3586.616,"end":3615.543,"text":"你核安會被作業要點排除在外知道嗎因為裡面規劃的還是原子能委員會啊還是你的前身啊所以你們做三年沒開會讓你組織都已經改造了你都還不知道為什麼因為三年沒開會啊那主委上一次我們召委有質詢過你有沒有在發函要求督促、建請行政院要開會還是認為沒開會無所謂反正大家不關心"},{"start":3616.75,"end":3644.562,"text":"兩者一攤沒我的事主委 說明一下你上一次質詢完之後你有什麼樣的作為不是 我在問主委您是您是務管組組長好 那主委除非你想要篡位否則我還是請教主委來 主委有什麼樣的措施我們有注意到這一點但是召開會議這個是行政院的"},{"start":3645.982,"end":3672.38,"text":"有沒有見解 有沒有認為有必要我就講嘛 剛剛作業要點裡面第二點很重要是核電廠的廚藝啊您應該是一個專業的文官要給長官建議也應該要盡一個幕僚之責要告訴長官說現在過去三年沒有開會了除非你民進黨的非核家園含假的除非你沒有打算要推動否則過去三年大家不開會"},{"start":3675.069,"end":3687.443,"text":"薪水小偷不是不是只是點頭啦是認同薪水小偷這句話沒辦法認同沒辦法認同那三年不開會是"},{"start":3690.96,"end":3713.226,"text":"已經幾倍了兩個月應該要開一次會的三年不開會那就代表有十五次十幾次啊六、十八、十八次來最後今天討論到的是含氚廢水的排放部分國際原子能總署有去三月的時候前往日本考察"},{"start":3714.898,"end":3740.18,"text":"昨天又從23號到26號又要再度跟11個會員國專家組成專案任務小組獨立身份赴日進行安全的審查本席都希望是說能夠安全在安全監控無虞的情況你們今天的報告都一直講是說沒有問題安全那但是我們沒有辦法到現場去看那過去這段時間我們有沒有爭取過希望能夠共同參加"},{"start":3743.615,"end":3758.662,"text":"這個11個會員國都是IAEA的member那麼在我們的報告書跟PowerPoint裡面其實有講我們有4次專家實地的訪查團4次包含到福島那麼我們最近是什麼時候"},{"start":3759.372,"end":3776.759,"text":"最近一次是去年10月10月底到11月初我們副主委帶隊的就是前任副主委所以我們有充分的交流那另外我跟委員報告我們會裡面其實有駐日的專責的人員"},{"start":3778.38,"end":3805.889,"text":"主委說實在話國際原子能總署的考察以及11個會員國考察跟說我們自己獨立前往考察其實還是有很大的差別為什麼這麼講我們可以看到的東西不一樣我們可以清楚了解的狀況不一樣我們能夠要求日方給我們看到的東西也不一樣這個很明白不用拿那個東西來搪塞本席今天很清楚明白告知"},{"start":3806.589,"end":3831.635,"text":"你說這些會員國裡面跟日本福島相關距離海域來講有哪幾個會員國比我們台灣近其實相對來講一定少我們相對來講是相對比較近的對嘛 沒有錯嘛我們相對來講是比較近的嘛比其他會員國嘛那既然其他會員國都可以來做申請那我們到目前為止既然有看到這個狀況是不是應該要透過相關外交管道當然 我們"},{"start":3834.471,"end":3857.603,"text":"中華民國處境不容易但是該爭取的該要求的我們當然應該要求阿因為這對於我們台灣2300萬人都是非常重要的阿尤其我們海域那麼的近那人家都去前往看了我們有沒有試圖不管是任何的管道都要表達我們希望能夠共同爭取共同參與有沒有沒有"},{"start":3860.109,"end":3887.344,"text":"我跟委員報告,IAEA是聯合國的會員國的附屬組織所以他參加的member都是聯合國的會員國那麼我們知道我們外交的處境很困難本席都講了我了解我們現在中華民國外交處境但是過去我們不是沒有辦法參加國際組織那是現在執政黨的一個狀況但重點在於是說我們要發聲我們要表達我們希望能夠前往參加"},{"start":3888.188,"end":3894.173,"text":"瞭解 這沒問題好 那我們差不多時間到了喔 謝謝 謝謝謝謝委員 謝謝主委那我們有請下一位柯志恩委員謝謝主席 我們是不是請我們的主委有請主委 謝謝"},{"start":3913.852,"end":3934.362,"text":"主委好,我們特別針對今天的主題有關於含氚廢水的問題因為大家都非常擔心是不是我們會吃到有關於放射性的食物然後我們的漁獲量、漁民也非常的關切所以你認為從2020年這個議題出來之後因為它這個儲存的空間已經儲滿所以它必須要排放你覺得這個會議重不重要?你覺得這個議題重不重要?"},{"start":3937.165,"end":3938.487,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算"},{"start":3952.205,"end":3952.966,"text":"主委或副主委有親自主持過嗎?"},{"start":3968.891,"end":3990.612,"text":"我們是主任秘書主持怎麼會是主任秘書呢你會不會覺得這個是延續過去沒有啊怎麼會延續過去我們來給你看一下我跟委員報告因為我們核安會改制之後我們副主委只有剩一位他是一樣啊主委如果這很重要的話你過去都還是有個副主委你現在已經變成降級的單位沒有問題但是呢有你"},{"start":3991.132,"end":4013.719,"text":"或是由你的副署長來出席是不是表達你對這件事情重要就你們都只派主密所以我個人會覺得你們對這個會議的所謂的重要性這麼樣的部分已經幫你整理出來其實我並不覺得你們這麼重視你覺得第18次的會議會在520之前由你親自主持嗎因為那是一個態度的誠意的表現沒有問題520之前什麼時候已經快要接近了"},{"start":4014.215,"end":4035.984,"text":"沒有問題沒有問題就是會你好 我們就來看一下然後我們剛剛看到了我們非常關切有關於這個到底是你現在目前為止已經有5批次了嘛我看到你的報告已經有5批次了好 但是呢主委你認為目前周邊是否還有沒有機會是檢測到輻射異常或是我們的漁獲會不會檢測出含氚或其他的放射性物質你目前"},{"start":4042.543,"end":4061.709,"text":"目前的檢測都沒有了但是這個牽扯到那個sampling就是你取點怎麼取點對這是最重要的好你沒有檢測到來諸位這是這個重點所在嘛因為你不要忘記我們這次的廢水要排放日本的廢水排放要30年連續30年的時間"},{"start":4064.77,"end":4070.236,"text":"那30年時間目前你都只能用多核種去核的這個設備嘛LPS來檢測嘛 對不對但是這個檢測是沒有辦法檢測到氚沒有問題吧其他都可以沒有辦法檢測到氚那你怎麼知你必須要通過稀釋過濾對 這就是問題所在"},{"start":4082.648,"end":4105.758,"text":"所以未來這30年當中如果我們這個去放射性核種的效率變差了或者是SOP有任何的問題了最重要是我們沒有辦法參加IAEA的這個調查團我們台灣有最好的分析的人才我們只能得到間接的一個資料所以說呢你都沒有辦法到源頭來做一個取樣這是事實嗎"},{"start":4107.182,"end":4107.603,"text":"我們有到日本福島你有採樣嗎?"},{"start":4125.333,"end":4152.02,"text":"我知道你很難講因為就我的理解就我的理解你的內部理念有拿到日本福島電廠給你們的樣本但是呢你們也做了分析但是你們不敢公開是不是有這件事因為是安全的因為安全的問題理由其實很大的理由就是因為日本給了台灣沒有給中國大陸所以呢因為沒有給中國大陸日本怕觸怒所以以至於你們有樣本你們到現在為止都還沒有公開這是不是一個事實"},{"start":4154.212,"end":4177.434,"text":"主委這是不是一個事實我有沒有給中國大陸我沒辦法告訴你日本沒有辦法告訴你但是你沒有拿到樣本裡面也做了分析但是你並沒有公開這是不是一個事實我們在意的是安全的問題所以啊這是很安全那你既然拿到樣本我們有最好的分析人才既然拿到這個樣本日本也給你的為什麼不公開你們就留著自己看這還是有很多外交的側面在所以我只問說這是不是一個事實"},{"start":4180.438,"end":4196.933,"text":"好 主委 您的態度我已經大概知道我也不為難你但是呢 這大概牽涉到一些的外交的部分但是 我也強調這個安全是非常的重要的所以呢 主委 您的態度已經說明了非常的多了但是呢 我還是強調如果能夠請外交部來協助雖然我沒有進入這個組織但是 不要每一次都只是在他們地方接受他們的這個所謂的簡報報告然後呢 我們最要的就是"},{"start":4206.101,"end":4220.341,"text":"希望你能夠拿到樣本然後能夠做好然後把這個數據告訴我們這才是一個能夠安定大家的方法既然你這麼有大的信心說他沒有任何的問題所以呢我們就要問嘛我剛剛說分析人才是非常的夠的啊但是我們核安的檢測人力到底夠不夠"},{"start":4222.043,"end":4244.914,"text":"因為你看相對於海保署相對於海巡署相對於漁業署動輒上百人你核安的分析人力嘛你看目前的偵測專機就有12個再加上原來的國研院6個你18個你的解凍來說你們還告訴我這很多都是從國研院前身核研所來的而且屬於過度性質的員額那這個部分來說你覺得未來還有人力來做檢測嗎"},{"start":4248.001,"end":4275.699,"text":"目前是沒有問題嗎目前是沒有問題目前沒有問題那個我跟委員報告偵測中心他是在高雄他是一個全部都是lab全部都是你現在我等一下還會問到那兩個檢測的包括高雄但是我只問到這個檢測的部分所以我還要特別問到剛剛大家非常的關切除了這個問題之外就等一下我們在解凍的時候可以來做討論因為我時間非常的有限我只知道擔心目前到底肥喝料有沒有人來管理因為你目前來說"},{"start":4277.04,"end":4301.318,"text":"在第一年的時候這個有關放射性的廢棄物的處理的運轉人員的檢測在2016年的時候你有72人報考合格是41人到去年為止只剩下29個人合格15連5成都不到我是擔心到最後核廢掉都沒有專業人員要來做這樣的考核都沒有人來做這個處理然後你現在目前為止這個核廢掉該怎麼樣來做這是你應該要特別注意的"},{"start":4304.701,"end":4325.691,"text":"好,然後接下來呢因為時間的關係所以我適度地要很快我上次有特別提到的核工人才核工人才裡面我們過去因為非常強調但這些人已經慢慢凋零了,好吧很多的核工人才都已經退休然後呢我們又不太重視核能所以以至於我們的人才目前為止都拿去給美國人使用了但是主委你知道嗎"},{"start":4326.351,"end":4335.04,"text":"目前有英國把他們的合共的博士班送到我們台灣的清大因為他們有為期10天的反應器操作訓練課程主委你知道這件事嗎?"},{"start":4336.169,"end":4339.933,"text":"昨年送來的一批17位英國把博士生送到我們台灣來今年有15位一向五年而且他們到2027年現在英國跟清大恰談第二個五年計畫所以呢我告訴你原因是什麼你看英國把他們的核工潤商送到我們台灣的清大來因為我們台灣清大還有這些食物可以教導他們"},{"start":4360.652,"end":4382.599,"text":"我們現在的核工人才萬一哪一天我們的核能核工又再一次的蓬勃的時候我們反而要把我們的人送到別人國家去我每次看到這件事情我就覺得很感慨啊別人送到我們這邊來然後我們這邊慢慢凋零完之後然後呢到最後萬一我們有些困境的話我們搞不好就變成下一個英國要把我們未來的很多的核工的人送到國外去你覺得會不會有這種可能"},{"start":4383.799,"end":4406.62,"text":"我是很感嘆的我同意委員的看法人才培育的傳承是非常重要非常重要但是當你沒有這個市場當這個政府根本完全不在乎這個核能未來的發展的時候你就會變成別的國家來用我們這些的設備跟人才來去做的這是我們台灣高等教育、核工教育很大的一個悲哀啦主委 這真的我要特別講啦好 了解好 然後就沒事啦"},{"start":4410.712,"end":4430.234,"text":"我上一次有跟委員報告其實我們內部其實有在討論最後時間關係主席請給我一個個時間就好我要請衛福部我只要問一下我們目前的川的檢驗衛福部的部分因為都已經來了到最後你們來我們都沒讓你問到我們也覺得很不好意思我們還是要問一下"},{"start":4431.836,"end":4445.082,"text":"對不起因為你們目前為止過去你告訴我說沒有辦法檢測因為你知道食藥署對於這些食品包括退官、銷毀跟退運這三種來處理這些方式嘛沒錯吧你們現在目前為止以前你們告訴我們說沒有辦法檢測到磚那目前來說因為你們說磚沒有限量標準嘛所以沒有辦法檢測那你目前有一個這個實施計畫專案對不對那我想請問"},{"start":4455.607,"end":4482.081,"text":"實要數是不是已經代表核廢水的氚已經可以納入我們食品這個邊境的管制的行列來做一個檢測有沒有辦法跟委員報告目前確實有檢測方法但是他檢測的時間很長所以我們目前的做法是在輸入的當下去取樣然後然後驗完了以後再做看有沒有檢出去做監測"},{"start":4483.201,"end":4485.823,"text":"不列入在邊境核判合格與否的法案我們持續監測目前都未檢出都沒有檢出氚"},{"start":4501.294,"end":4506.539,"text":"高雄市衛生局還有我們的輻射偵測中心你們要設置這個穿的實驗室嗎?對那什麼時候可以建置好?高雄市目前建置中然後我們目前都有在檢測可以估計在今年年底前可以完成"},{"start":4527.465,"end":4539.891,"text":"6月是他們在協助高雄市來建立6月是不是好 下一次520之後我就要好好來監督這個川的實驗室因為目前廢水含這個川我們還是會非常的重視這樣的一個問題好不好好 謝謝那我們有請下一位萬美玲委員"},{"start":4558.268,"end":4561.87,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請陳主委有請陳主委萬委員早主委早主委我們在403大地震之後陸陸續續一直都有餘震來發生那台電它有坦言在部分的電廠電力系統是有受到影響的那請問一下主委目前我們現在核電廠有沒有因為地震有任何受損的狀況"},{"start":4583.779,"end":4603.012,"text":"零四零三地震的時候到現在對 我們核一廠跟核二廠燃料池的水有溢出那麼這個部分大概有3600公升那麼但是我們很快的就清理完畢那也有儲屋那麼到目前大概都還安全"},{"start":4604.033,"end":4605.475,"text":"4月5日運轉中的核三長二號機降載解連與403大地震有沒有關係?"},{"start":4624.108,"end":4638.734,"text":"沒有,他們是定期在維修或者是檢視跟核三廠沒有關係0403對核三廠的影響是出現的所以也是沒有影響嗎再來我們來討論一下我們看一下這個有一個表格根據我們來看台電它的資料來顯示核一廠、核二廠、核三廠耐震的能力分別是0.51G、0.67G、0.72G我們可以看到表格上有"},{"start":4653.459,"end":4658.623,"text":"4月3日大地震、核一場、核二場、核三場我們可以看到它的為主體底層地震一側得到最大加速的值分別是0.0281G、0.0338G、0.0125G為什麼講這個數字我們可以看到"},{"start":4674.714,"end":4695.269,"text":"目前這三座核電廠尤其是運轉中的這個核三廠我想要請教一下說我們依照剛剛那個數值我們看到地震以來我們好像都一直連自動停機的標準都還沒有達到那我們看到在運轉中的核三廠耐震度上來看我們來回頭檢討有沒有問題有沒有需要加強補強的地方"},{"start":4697.839,"end":4722.141,"text":"這個主要還是要看當地的震度核三廠在04、03顯然它是影響是極小它主要還是在北部花蓮跟北部的部分那麼事實上在核一、核二那主任您剛剛說要看震度那是什麼樣的震度會有影響呀那個這一次的地震在核一、核二廠大概是0.02到0.03我想核一、核二"},{"start":4722.987,"end":4740.426,"text":"但是在核三它少了非常多事實上在我們的網頁都有公告這也就是為什麼核三其實在地震的當下它還是持續運行那麼但是核一核二廠也很lucky因為我們新北市其實是五弱"},{"start":4741.367,"end":4766.03,"text":"第五級的弱但是在當地我們測到的地震影響還是這樣我這樣聽您的回覆啊應該是說目前是沒有很大的影響嘛對不對好那現在其實我們有聽到有很多的民間團體啊他有的有一種說法他說因為台灣現在位處於地震帶所以他們認為啊就不應該來使用這個核電廠所以主委認同這樣的一個看法嗎那而且您剛剛有說到關於現在核三廠那陣度來看喔"},{"start":4767.311,"end":4770.233,"text":"目前的這些制度看起來沒有太大的影響那您對於這樣民間團體的說法您怎麼看待?"},{"start":4774.502,"end":4796.409,"text":"那個是這樣子這個是發生地震的地方的問題如果正央就是在北部那麼很顯然是有很大的風險這就是其實是正央跟當地的地址的問題所以這也就是剛才應該是洪孟楷委員在問我我跟他說"},{"start":4798.345,"end":4824.492,"text":"自然災害其實是一個風險那麼其實輔導不是啦 主委當然這個是有風險啦但也就是說您現在其實也沒有辦法去看說什麼樣的震度然後對這個核電廠會有一個傷害嘛我看目前沒有這樣的數字嘛所以本席很簡單的問您就是說如果我們僅僅就是因為台灣地主地震帶所以不應該使用核電這樣的一個看法您到底這個讚不讚同啊"},{"start":4825.799,"end":4842.104,"text":"要非常小心就是我們要謹慎小心謹慎小心接下來我想請教一下核安會的官網當中有一個動態的訊息其中有一個即時資訊那這個即時資訊不曉得主委有沒有看過有"},{"start":4843.686,"end":4864.606,"text":"有看過嗎那我看我發現其實在這一次即時資訊在地震之後那因為是即時資訊嘛我不太理解這個即時到底是多短的時間到即時那有大概十幾分鐘十三分鐘就把這個資訊就公佈出來但有的時候也到大概一個小時左右才能夠出來那我不理解為什麼這個落差會這麼大這是第一個第二個"},{"start":4867.008,"end":4874.452,"text":"不曉得主委您剛剛說你有看到那我舉一個4月23號凌晨的時候我們看到凌晨0點09分我們發布了一個資訊上面寫說今天23號11點56分然後地震的這個資訊這個有沒有錯啊"},{"start":4885.868,"end":4912.618,"text":"主委這有沒有錯?這個應該是有錯錯在哪裡?極點錯的是嗎?所以你就是做一個未來的通報嘛那會有人就說哎呀這個是小事情欸主委這個不能說是小事情喔因為呢我們這個掌管核安吶我覺得任何一個這個資訊我們都是要嚴謹要正確何況這是一個即時資訊喔那我們的速度不一怎麼會叫即時啊有的要一個小時那速度還會有錯誤能不能說明一下"},{"start":4913.398,"end":4930.078,"text":"我們來檢視一下到底是哪個環節出了問題那為什麼有的是13分鐘就可以即時進出來有的要到一個多小時為什麼沒有標準我想這個可能是一個例外我們會來檢視一下到底是什麼地方出了問題再跟委員回覆"},{"start":4930.478,"end":4957.713,"text":"好 主委我想真的要解釋一下既然是即時那能夠做到有的時候是13分鐘15分鐘那是不是應該要保持在一個水準之上那不是有的時候搞了一個多小時這還叫即時嗎好不好那接下來我想再請教一下主委剛剛提到這個燃料池水這個在這次地震當中有溢出可是呢我要請教一下我們燃料池水是不是有含放射性物質 有沒有是的"},{"start":4958.652,"end":4986.5,"text":"有嘛那所以燃料池水這個因為地震溢出這算不算一種異常這個我想這個算不算 是啊是嗎好那我們看到喔4月3號12點24分我們發布的即時資訊上面寫到說哎呀今天7點58分臺灣地區的有感地震各核電廠依程序執行現場巡視結果機組維持正常運作那我們持續監督安全好 沒有異狀喔"},{"start":4987.58,"end":5015.761,"text":"但是呢你的內文又怎麼講你的內文又說發現這個核一廠巡視的時候有兩部這個機用過燃料這個池水溢出啦然後這個溢出的這個量啦在1300跟這個2200公升啦那我們又看到在另外一則即時資訊也是講到說清華大學的水池式反應器的這個儲存廠沒有受到影響喔那我們會持續去監控可是事實上它的池水也是有溢出喔我希望啦"},{"start":5016.041,"end":5034.65,"text":"我們的即時資訊我剛剛本席講過了這第一個我們能夠快要快第二個資訊一定要正確第三個絕對不要粉飾太平如果像您剛剛所說的這個池水是有含放射性物質的而且它溢出也算是異常那為什麼我們在給民眾一開始的這個即時資訊上面是一種粉飾太平告訴大家這沒有任何關係為什麼"},{"start":5036.687,"end":5056.629,"text":"那個核電廠人員要去檢視那麼它是會有一點點時間的落差所以一發生的時間的地震的當下主委如果有一點落差你就不應該用粉飾太平告訴大家什麼事都沒發生啊你是不是應該要給最正確的資訊求快也要求正確嘛所以這一點下次能不能再修正一下是的沒問題"},{"start":5057.19,"end":5082.326,"text":"好不好 這不必一定要修正 不可以有錯誤的資訊那最後 是本席在3月28號的時候有特別跟您提到我們現在日本福島第一核電廠排放了含氚廢水除了氚之外還有碳14跟碳129但是我們現在目前是沒有檢測能力那您也說 今年年底會完成碳14的檢測技術明年年底會完成碳129"},{"start":5083.807,"end":5087.368,"text":"為何完成檢測技術研發要花一年的時間?是非常困難還是人力上有問題?是有一定的難度當然需要這時間去克服但是現在有一個很大的問題以本席瞭解目前輻射監測中心負責研發碳14跟碟129的檢測技術人員"},{"start":5109.497,"end":5117.945,"text":"他同時除了這個研發之外他還要負責放射性物質的檢測的工作那現在全部的正式的人員只有10位 對嗎只有10位 對嗎報告委員碳14這一塊是有12位有12位 好你是不是還有加上外聘所以我剛剛指的是正式人員"},{"start":5135.337,"end":5151.833,"text":"對 有部分是計畫的人員好 我們不管今天你10位、12位、13位你知道這個人力其實是真的非常非常的少那您剛剛都說過了我們這些相關的研發這個檢測的這個技術其實是有它的困難度在這樣的人力夠嗎 主委"},{"start":5155.049,"end":5169.725,"text":"目前是可以啦那麼我們會來檢視我會跟陳主任再討論一下如果有需要我們看看是不是有緣額因為公務人員的人力他其實是有一線的限制但是我們這樣專業人力該加就要加"},{"start":5171.887,"end":5195.988,"text":"主委 您們對於日本排放的含氚廢水都告訴國人我們的檢測結果都是符合或是低於這個標準的但是我們現在自己的檢測技術跟能量卻又沒有達到那樣的標準所以你們的任何的說法跟任何的檢測報告要怎麼取信於國人所以我想今天我們來談的就是該補充人力要補充該給正確的資訊要給正確那我們希望這個主委加油好不好好 謝謝"},{"start":5199.326,"end":5203.167,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝萬美玲委員我們接下來請葛如君委員謝謝主席 有請陳東陽主委備詢好 有請陳主委好 葛委員好"},{"start":5228.719,"end":5245.953,"text":"主委好,520即將到了您上任到現在大約七個月希望您一切都還愉快、很順利也謝謝在這個地震的過程當中持續關注我們的核電廠主委先前是在成功大學任教也來自台南說不定很有機會繼續留任主委您有沒有被徵詢留任沒有"},{"start":5248.846,"end":5273.376,"text":"不管有還是沒有我想我們還是持續來關注核能的發展方向今天想跟主委也交流一下核能政策的幾個重要方向今年的1月底外交家Tipman雜誌有一篇文章提到台灣是已開發國家裡面能源最不安全的經濟體之一如果停用核能很難不損害國家安全利益與氣候目標其中甚至直接說到了"},{"start":5274.036,"end":5300.073,"text":"蔡政府用天然氣取代煤炭和核電的政策將使台灣的發電成本容易受到干擾除了天然氣價格波動幅度大要是對岸或其他人有意甚至可能透過海上封鎖的方式扼殺台灣最後甚至建議重啟核試並且讓現有的核電廠檢修後研議請教一下主委怎麼看待這篇報導的說法會不會覺得太危言聳聽啦報導中對我們核電廠相關的建議主委覺得可惜嗎?這個雜誌可信嗎?"},{"start":5303.467,"end":5321.381,"text":"不同媒體都會有不同的報導我們都持續關注也了解核安會其實是一個核能安全管制的獨立機關它其實是著重在技術這雜誌的說法到底可不可信有沒有委員聳聽"},{"start":5323.826,"end":5334.573,"text":"我想我沒辦法評論個別的一個媒體的報告在這邊我跟你們分享一下這個雜誌這個媒體是民進黨愛用的媒體國際事務部主任趙怡翔吳趙燮之子吳迪這個之前的這個民進黨非常青睞的這個媒體外交家"},{"start":5344.159,"end":5346.421,"text":"在各國的媒體、各國的政策上面可以給台灣什麼樣的一些建議?"},{"start":5361.616,"end":5388.819,"text":"接下來我們來看這個才是外面的雜誌我們來講台灣郭志輝準經濟部長我們也非常期待近日也開始拜訪產業針對缺電的問題在一個典禮當中表示4月18號目前無法判斷需不需要核電廠研議若需要研議也希望取得全民認同換句話說核電廠研議並不是被排除的會是未來的一個選項想請教一下主委"},{"start":5389.88,"end":5404.538,"text":"我們認不認同這樣的說法任何可能都是都有可能吶吼那麼我所以原意是有可能的嘛對不對都有可能不排除嘛不排除嘛對不對但是核安會"},{"start":5405.649,"end":5419.169,"text":"不會對特定的立場做特定的但核安會要不要針對研議做準備如果真的要研議的話當然就有技術要做準備嘛當然研議一下就需要兩三年啊我們現在有沒有做準備現在有沒有問問研議做準備"},{"start":5420.191,"end":5440.726,"text":"我們有去檢視相關的法規這會不會太模糊了我們有去檢視相關的法規檢視那有報告嗎?有會議嗎?有記錄嗎?沒有記錄有上網嗎?沒有上網好沒關係我們先繼續看我們協作啦我們在立院我們都很希望協作讓台灣變得更好來跟主委報告一下"},{"start":5441.606,"end":5456.632,"text":"臨近日本東京最大的核電廠4月15日本月獲得原子能監督委員會核准將核燃料放入7號反應爐臨近韓國近年更是政策轉向從本來的去核電"},{"start":5457.659,"end":5466.822,"text":"因為AI、數據中心、電動車普及導致電力需求矩陣的情況之下核電廠運轉連線從40年左右延長到70到80年全球運轉的438部核電機組當中在近年獲得研議的比例高達59%"},{"start":5476.325,"end":5504.611,"text":"荷蘭則是積極進行核電廠的選址預計2025年要興建兩座我們回到台灣來看剛剛我們還是參考國外還有一些台灣的說法準經濟部長我們來看一下雙總統人員的這個活動環保團體代表就說我們2050要淨零減碳2030年要碳排減半距離2030年只有6年的時間現在這個數字還在持續上升我們到底碳排要怎麼降"},{"start":5505.231,"end":5506.672,"text":"如果政策是要研議那麼核安會當然要全力的配合"},{"start":5531.411,"end":5551.761,"text":"那我跟主委分享,2025年5月份就已經要有這個時間就已經到了嘛那我們還要兩三年準備,你等他上任再來準備這不會太趕了嗎?來得及嗎?我們的店夠用嗎?我們評估就要兩三年的時間欸我不是說今天要研議,明天就研議成功啊,不是嗎?"},{"start":5553.22,"end":5565.935,"text":"台灣電力公司也必須去檢視目前目前去檢視目前的基礎的所有的安全的情況那台電如果不說要準備這邊就不用準備了是不是"},{"start":5566.923,"end":5584.882,"text":"台電是主要的發動者他是從需求面那麼我們是被動來接受他不叫核電啊是你們叫核安啊他還有很多其他發電要管理啊而且他們有時候要上台下台的管機關是台電核電廠核一、核二、核三"},{"start":5586.031,"end":5610.57,"text":"我想這個希望早一點來規劃早一點來做準備為什麼我們真的是要超前部署Sam Altman OpenAI的執行長曾經多次表示人工智慧如果沒有足夠的能源沒有辦法到達下一個階段我們應該全人類都要對核融合進行更多的投資所以他2021年的時候就投資了一個核融合新創公司Helium"},{"start":5611.451,"end":5625.306,"text":"接下來他們在2028年要興建一座50MW以上的發電量的合融合電廠預計可以供應5萬戶美國家庭一年的用電量連微軟都已經在預購了微軟都已經預購這個電力了我們在合融合這一塊有沒有努力我們有沒有發展我們真的是很好奇"},{"start":5632.774,"end":5653.866,"text":"那在接下來呢其實我們也看到很多人的批評我先問一下我們核融呢現在有沒有投入投入多少計畫規模多少我們有國客會support的一個計畫是一個整合型計畫知道多少預算嗎大概3500萬吧3500萬要來保障我們未來在未來新形態能源的發展這樣足夠嗎可不可以給我們專業的評論"},{"start":5655.547,"end":5667.272,"text":"這是一個early stage的study別人都已經2024年要完工第7代的核融合反應器了2028年要新建一個有50MW的核融合電廠微軟都在預購 這還是early stage嗎?"},{"start":5672.157,"end":5696.962,"text":"說我們是在early stage你們的思維是early stage沒有關係我們來協作我們看一下這個我們執政黨的好朋友甚至我也非常非常景仰他甚至一度傳出可能擔任行政院長合作董事長童子賢在去年接受財訊的採訪的時候也提醒最近最重要的項目就是核融核研究的新創公司"},{"start":5697.702,"end":5721.826,"text":"德和融合、德勝悲還在early stage嗎?這不是我講的喔!童董事長講的喔!我們繼續看,我今天講的全部都是專業的都是外部人士講的,有雜誌講的我們再來看,中研院院士李遠哲與日前參加臺大風險中心舉辦的近鄰青年沙龍說由於台灣過去15年的溫室氣體只增無減"},{"start":5725.367,"end":5739.952,"text":"除非2030年氣體排放量可降低一半否則政府無法在2050達成淨零為什麼我們要在這裡講這個問題是因為CODE28之後核能已經被確認為零碳排的能源同意嗎?"},{"start":5740.95,"end":5766.037,"text":"他說如果我們沒有辦法達成的話目前的政策都是騙人的這是別人講的院士講的所以真的是拜託啦拜託核安會該修法的要盡快啟動修法討論我們已經看到很多國外的外管都在關注了不只關注台灣各國也都在要嘛評估研議要嘛興建新的核電廠要嘛投資核融核我們投資核融3500萬"},{"start":5768.525,"end":5785.302,"text":"這一棟台北的房子都買不起我們要投資核融合啦該評估的提前評估積極為核電廠的重啟一宣準備而且關於核能的新科技拜託建議採取更積極的態度新科技每年都在變五年前我們是early stage覺得可以等"},{"start":5786.122,"end":5808.393,"text":"兩年前絕對可以再看看拜託今年我們又有AI內閣active innovative好不好我們非常的期待那不管您是否留任我們希望有一個非常非常好的典範留下來希望真的是要換一個做法相關的核融核第7代核融核反應器要完工我們剛剛提到了全球最大的企業之一微軟也簽署了2028年的核融核購電協議"},{"start":5813.915,"end":5835.908,"text":"希望委員會這邊可以再更積極好不好給我們更專業的一些建議給我們更新的做法更主動積極active innovative沒有問題但是我跟委員澄清一下我剛才講early stage是我們3500萬那個計畫那總規模多少不好意思主席我再用一點時間因為很善意的交流嘛對對對其實它就是總規模多少"},{"start":5837.044,"end":5859.743,"text":"總規模就是3千5百萬有五個計畫包含國研院、成大、清華所以你不是說它是有一個full stage然後這是其中一個stage3千5百萬沒有它就是early stage的3千5百萬那我們未來有沒有預期投入它有四年計畫現在是四年第一年3千5百萬對對對那後面呢後面還會有在編有在編了嗎對對對那預計多少什麼時候會知道"},{"start":5867.28,"end":5869.942,"text":"規劃第二期要研究一個托克瑪的將來會跟國科會申請大概一億左右的經費一億至二億就要看國家的預算能夠賀給我們多少"},{"start":5887.856,"end":5905.432,"text":"好,我們教育委員會也會非常關注國科會還有相關的科技研發核能安全也是我們非常關注的能源也是我們非常關注的那也謝謝這個主委來這邊來跟我們進行一個非常良善的對話也謝謝主席,不好意思那感謝好,謝謝好,謝謝葛如君委員陳主委請回我們接下來請郭育晴委員"},{"start":5919.833,"end":5920.154,"text":"有請陳主委"},{"start":5929.223,"end":5947.996,"text":"國衛委員早國衛委員早安辛苦了我想昨天地震的部分我相信其實大家也都明顯的感受到了雖然這個應該也算是在4月3號的大地震之後的一個餘震但也有人說這個地震將來還是餘震會持續將近"},{"start":5951.471,"end":5976.485,"text":"在花蓮的部分可能會持續一年所以其實大家對於地震因為沒辦法臺灣就是位於這個兩個大的板塊包含我們的歐亞板塊菲律賓板塊之間所以這個地震會變成是一個常態那當然其實核能的安全跟地震也息息的相關那這個部分我不曉得就是就主委的看法這一次的地震一直到現在為止我們在河岸的部分"},{"start":5977.265,"end":6000.724,"text":"在安全的部分做到什麼樣的一個地步那個0403地震我們其實啟動了一連串的危機處理那麼還好非常幸運我們的有些的損害或者是有些的意外其實是非常局部非常小我剛才有提到就是說燃料池的水溢出大概3500升"},{"start":6004.607,"end":6024.041,"text":"其他事還好當然這個很大的地震7.2級我們有去稍微檢視怎麼說我們對核電廠是相對安全後來我們看了就是在當地在石門在萬里相對的震度其實是相對相對的低它大概是2%"},{"start":6026.282,"end":6050.22,"text":"到3%的重力加速度所以它其實在那個地方是相對的低所以我們一般民眾看到在新北市它是侮弱但是在局部地區還是有不同的變化那麼我想在某一定程度上也是我們是得天獨厚很幸運這一次沒有發生什麼樣的意外"},{"start":6050.78,"end":6075.183,"text":"是,我想其實不管是0403的這個大地震跟這兩天其實最大的震度是規模6.3那不要講別的我們家其實在四樓光是裝水餵貓的水其實晚上晃一晃隔天也會溢出來我想這是屬於比較正常大家都可以接受的一個範圍啦包含所謂清華大學的那個反應池的這個部分"},{"start":6075.802,"end":6098.617,"text":"我相信也是那在這裡當然還是要給我們的這個核安會這邊有一些鼓勵正面的鼓勵吧因為我上去看了之後發現你們的即時的資訊更新是非常快速的那當然這個部分其實也讓很多的民眾能夠在第一時間可以掌握到這個最新的一些資訊那我想這個核能安全我們繼續一起就是繼續的努力"},{"start":6101.039,"end":6119.333,"text":"那這次的大地震其實台灣也很迅速的在全世界其實都讚嘆就是說我們沒有斷電那當然其實也說很快的能夠迅速的恢復到正常的生活那雖然部分的有心人士可能會曲解用很簡單的兩個字叫缺電或者是我們的一些所謂的這個能源政策錯誤來曲解這樣子的一個意義但是殊不知其實在前線我們很多的第一線的"},{"start":6130.842,"end":6142.711,"text":"工作人員其實真的很辛苦接下來我想問一下就是其實我們的核能安全的跟公眾的部分就是在我們的新媒體的一個宣傳的一個效果"},{"start":6144.575,"end":6162.847,"text":"這個部分真的我就是要稍微講一下啦我看到我們的這個粉專我們的粉專大概是4.1萬的粉絲有26個管理員但是在我們看到的這個每一篇的文章這個按讚數最多最多好像大概就是30幾個"},{"start":6164.288,"end":6190.052,"text":"那這個部分是不是在我們這個就是讓我們民眾也知道我們的核能安全到底做到什麼樣的一個地步這個部分會不會覺得自己宣傳不夠然後在左邊的YT更是我們雖然有拍了一些影片之前也跟這個藝人來合作郭彥均還是郭彥甫對不對之前有跟他合作但是這個觀看人次最多最多好像就是三十幾位"},{"start":6190.712,"end":6218.812,"text":"您那時候應該找我的同樣姓郭那時候我還不是立委你還可以找我那會不會可能效果更好這個部分我們跟一般的新媒體的傳播的策略是不是有一點點落差所以其實很多人也許知道這個是很專業的一個部門但是其實攸關我們每一個人的核能安全的一個認知這個部分我們有沒有要做什麼樣的一個修改"},{"start":6219.252,"end":6245.921,"text":"那個跟國委員報告那這個部分我們有注意到有很大的改進的空間那麼我們最近在做新的網頁我想大概最多在一個月就會上線你會看到很大很大的改變那麼影片的這個部分我也非常不滿意因為很多都是沿襲過去放在那個地方然後沒有拿下來"},{"start":6246.801,"end":6268.921,"text":"有些就是慢性病就是要改這要改這要改對就是有需要一些時間那我想這個部分我們會再來努力那看也請委員給我們指導一下我想這個看看有什麼樣的想法來讓這個公眾來了解我們這個可以做得更好"},{"start":6270.062,"end":6295.08,"text":"接下來我想要問就僅有的一個時間就是2010年起其實我們大會都用個別觀察員的一個身份那尤其是這一次其實在這個IAEA我們特別也赴日去做了這樣子的一個考察那這個部分其實我們也到了他們的福島的第一核電廠去稍微看了一下關於他們的這個核廢水的排放的一個狀況那目前其實我們的"},{"start":6296.281,"end":6324.07,"text":"核安會這邊掌握到的他們的排放廢水的一個狀況是什麼樣的一個進度我們是隨時掌握啦我剛才有報告過第一個就是我們跟這個日本NRA從2014年就有一個合作備忘錄所以定期都有合作資訊的交流那第二個呢是我們有派駐在台灣駐日代表處"},{"start":6324.75,"end":6336.082,"text":"有一個專門的人員全職的所以他提供給我們第一次的訊息剛才Beson那個備忘錄我們跟他們視訊會議有大達21次我們去實地拜訪"},{"start":6340.692,"end":6362.65,"text":"觀察團有4次跨部會的我想在座的很多部會包含海委會、農業部都有參與那麼我們今年海會再去拜訪應該是6月是好那當然這個是我們互相交流的一個部分最重要的還是要具體的掌握所謂的他們的這個廢水排放的"},{"start":6363.25,"end":6392.126,"text":"包含臺灣附近的一些洋流變化當然核廢水對臺灣的影響我們每一個人都非常關心從112年8月24日日本開始排放所謂的寒川的廢水到現在為止我們知道我們自己本身的核安會我們都有一些即時上的更新這個必須真的要稱讚一下包含在昨天我們看到一周擴散的預報概況本來在中午的時候還沒更新"},{"start":6392.566,"end":6418.34,"text":"我們就說好明天我就要來定這一題但後來下午就更新了那這個部分還是要讚美一下那當然其實在整個所有的一個監測其實民眾關心的這個部分那另外其實在我們的國際監測的一個資訊即時看還有一個跨部會的這個輻射監測整合儀表板那這個部分其實只到4月14號那目前為止還沒有更新大概什麼時候會更新呢"},{"start":6420.08,"end":6420.34,"text":"陳秀寶委員"},{"start":6453.058,"end":6453.239,"text":"主席"},{"start":6460.788,"end":6483.949,"text":"主委早安主委這邊請教您您在業務報告的時候曾經答覆說如果國內的核電廠要研議在安全專業上是不是可行呢要視個別的電廠的運轉情況而定那我相信主委跟本席一樣也認為說安全是最重要的這邊請教主委就算修法已經除役的核電廠可以再研議嗎"},{"start":6487.327,"end":6505.94,"text":"如果修法要通過主委你認為說有哪些核電廠的機組有可能申請研議應該是核三那核二稍微再進一步難度是比較簡單是核三核二是相對的比較稍微難一點大概是這樣"},{"start":6506.801,"end":6526.601,"text":"我們現行的法令規定核電廠在執照到期前多久如果要申請研議的話要提出五年五年喔那如果有黨團或委員想要提出修法這個五年的這個期限這個時間呢對我們現在已經在運轉的機組就是說將來他面臨到廚藝的問題那他現在提修法會是來得及的嗎"},{"start":6528.055,"end":6548.2,"text":"來不及喔我們國內有企業指出就是主張說以黃金比例來配置能源的話核能可以是綠能的盟友而非敵人但是如果只以現在的核酸來研議的話主委您覺得說能夠做到所謂的黃金配置的黃金能源配置的比例嗎"},{"start":6549.352,"end":6563.414,"text":"我們核三廠就是6%這所有的能源大概就是佔所有我們臺灣能源的6%左右那麼就是說它還是有一定的限度"},{"start":6564.94,"end":6591.27,"text":"主委您以您的專業來看其實我們國內跟各國一樣對於再生能源的發展能源轉型我們都一直都非常在努力就是希望來抵消這些碳排因為我們有一個目標是2050年進行排放那如果說我們以這樣子剛剛講的再生能源的發展來能源轉型的部分還有說一些比較難以抵消的部分我們還用復炭技術以及這個自然碳匯的方式來抵那麼"},{"start":6591.931,"end":6596.36,"text":"不用核能,主管您覺得2050年的淨零排放真的是無法達成嗎?"},{"start":6598.487,"end":6621.364,"text":"這個部分也要看新科技未來發展的速度比如說氫能比如說地熱那這樣說主委您來看如果說以我們現在以再生能源發展的這樣的技術一直在精進那是不是有這樣的機會在2050年進行台放達成這個目標裡面我們是排除核能的"},{"start":6623.684,"end":6638.43,"text":"我想也不能完全排除按照目前的技術未來總是有很多的可能所以您覺得這也是樂觀的吧"},{"start":6640.395,"end":6655.963,"text":"是有這個可能其實為什麼提到這個部分呢因為其實這段時間的地震讓我們台灣的民眾都心理壓力非常的大常常睡覺都睡不安穩那以我們台灣整個地層的結構其實發展可能需要非常非常的謹慎我想主委您同意非常同意"},{"start":6658.618,"end":6665.421,"text":"那我們今天的主題今天是關於我們含氚廢水的排放那過去我們都會聚焦在福島核電廠這個含氚廢水的排放但是日本的媒體近日有解出中國2023年版的《核能年鑒》有揭露2022年中國核電廠排放的水裡面含輻射物質穿的數量跟福島電廠排放的含氚廢水上限來比那超標是高達9倍"},{"start":6688.431,"end":6690.832,"text":"甚至說中國浙江的泰山核電廠2022年排出的含氚量是202兆貝克相對於福島核電廠來講高了9.1倍。這個排放水含氚的量以核安會的專業來看對周邊的國家跟海域是安全的嗎?"},{"start":6710.09,"end":6728.482,"text":"目前檢測因為目前我們有一些海測點107點目前大概都是安全的那麼剛才委員提到的問題我想我們後續會再來研議一下就是說看看有沒有辦法再更進一步的有一些"},{"start":6728.922,"end":6733.885,"text":"其實以核電廠的運轉其實排放水裡面都會有這樣的物質但是我們經過層層的過濾呢這樣輻射物質降到最低才排放出來但因為氚這個物質本來它比較不好排除所以它會變成是一個指標檢驗排放水裡面的氚來看這樣子的這樣的水排放出來是不是對周邊的海域周邊的物質會有一些危害那如果說"},{"start":6754.355,"end":6761.68,"text":"的核電廠的排放水裡面這些含氚的這個量是必然的那以我國周邊的國家的核電廠來排放情況包括含輻射量的質量、整體排放量是不是核安會我們對這個部分的訊息的揭露給民眾相關的情況一定要讓民眾有正確的認知所以說我們在我們的核安會的監測的入口網的資訊是不是應該調整而不是說只以日本的排放"},{"start":6784.996,"end":6800.692,"text":"這個為主是不是應該要揭露周邊國家排放的這個狀況而且要及時的做這個示警來降低民眾的疑慮以及恐慌不是只有針對日本的排放主委您覺得呢我完全同意所以這個希望可以做調整"},{"start":6802.934,"end":6825.607,"text":"對 來做調整讓民眾去了解說有這樣的訊息而且我們要做正確的這樣的訊息的布達讓他們了解說不用過度的焦慮那在4月20的報導裡面有指出福島核廢水的儲罐出現腐蝕那即使說東電他說是沒問題的那我們核安衛有沒有針對這個腐蝕的狀況來做進一步的了解"},{"start":6826.736,"end":6841.262,"text":"是的,我們有在注意到這個新聞那麼後續有在看這個東電這個公司相關的網頁那麼也會持續的來關注後續他的情況那特別是安全的問題"},{"start":6842.142,"end":6846.804,"text":"因為我們不是IAEA的成員所以說我們很多的訊息可能對我們國際上一些原子能的狀況沒有辦法馬上有第一手的消息但是我們沒有辦法有第一手的消息之後我們如果知道有這樣的就是說我們輾轉的不是輾轉可能第二手知道這樣的訊息之後我們也必須要趕快去了解事實的整個的實際的情況是如何我們才能夠來決定如何因應"},{"start":6869.691,"end":6882.982,"text":"我強調這個部分是說其實我們一般的民眾就是這樣比較高度的一些專業的一些訊息他們不了解那不了解就會覺得恐慌就會焦慮所以核安會這邊應該針對說我們新聞還有一些比較時效性的這樣的訊息我們要加快我們回應的速度來減低民眾的疑慮跟他們的焦慮那再下來我這邊要請教主委"},{"start":6893.951,"end":6895.373,"text":"針對烏克蘭的紮婆羅勒核電廠附近近期遭受無人機攻擊國際能源總署也已經示警甚至表示這是一條極度危險戰線的開端"},{"start":6909.288,"end":6924.285,"text":"那過去呢本席也詢問過很多次就是我國周邊的核電廠如果說有發生事故而有輻射外溢的這個狀況呢這樣對我國跟周邊的國家都是災難那所以今天這個"},{"start":6925.486,"end":6926.126,"text":"是的,我們每年定期"},{"start":6955.632,"end":6983.499,"text":"我們今年會做河岸30號演習那麼剛才委員提到的烏俄戰爭那麼最大的影響即時的應該是歐洲大陸那麼葛羅希那個他的這個訪問其實我看了這個相關的這個video那麼其實是全世界很關切因為這個不僅是俄羅斯跟烏克蘭的問題"},{"start":6984.719,"end":6984.919,"text":"規劃是說萬一有這樣的情勢發生"},{"start":7001.186,"end":7021.596,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7022.156,"end":7038.363,"text":"我們會裡面的網頁是有完全這樣的訊息但是我在這裡很快的跟委員報告就是第一時間一般來講是沒有需要緊急的避難不需要你只要在房子裡面就好了那麼我們國家會針對環境的輻射"},{"start":7042.062,"end":7061.814,"text":"我們針對食用水、針對食品去做一些檢測那暫時無需恐慌對,這個就是需要給民眾的一些教育跟宣導那最後本席這邊要強調核能安全是我們最高的原則希望核安會這邊你們可以善盡你們職責堅守你們職責來守護台灣、守護我們的國民謝謝,謝謝主委謝謝陳主委"},{"start":7067.125,"end":7076.432,"text":"好 謝謝陳秀寶委員主席在這邊宣告一下主委請回在羅廷偉委員諮詢完後我們休息五分鐘接下來請李錦昭委諮詢謝謝 謝謝主席有請陳主委還有漁業署陳副署長漁業署陳副署長"},{"start":7101.183,"end":7116.594,"text":"本席上次質詢有關中國核電廠氚廢水排放案例的延期我首先要肯定核安會在第一時間迅速有給出回覆也表示會更提前來完成計畫"},{"start":7119.096,"end":7139.93,"text":"不過排放到這個大海的放射性的廢水造成的影響其實是難以預估化學物質除了它隨著洋流會流到各處然後也還可能在海洋生物攝取之後因為生物累積效應的關係會使得食物鏈這個頂端者體內累積到更多的這個影響這個健康的物質"},{"start":7145.154,"end":7151.5,"text":"那所以我們這次要本席特別關心的就是說在台灣遠洋漁業所捕撈的漁種當中放射性物質的生物檢測的狀況那從漁業署的這個官方網站可以看到目前的反台太平洋漁獲輻射抽檢檢驗結果"},{"start":7168.275,"end":7194.416,"text":"涉137等敗衰期較長的元素都是符合規定的情形不過我想就叫核安會還有農業部就是說國人常吃的這些遠洋的魚類那他們抽驗的情形也是合格的嗎還是說根據剛剛所謂的生物累積效應那漁民所捕獲的這種大型的魚種那目前檢驗的狀況如何"},{"start":7196.696,"end":7214.988,"text":"跟昭緯報告到目前為止我們做這些漁獲的檢測都是安全的那麼我們輻射偵測中心是第一線實驗室在做量測那麼我們這些漁獲大概就是水勢所、漁業署他們提供這些樣本"},{"start":7223.974,"end":7244.26,"text":"好,所以是漁業署要補充說明還是?嗯,很好,漁業署這邊補充說明,事實上從剛才報告的部分我們在抽驗的部分事實上就包括所謂的沿濟海的部分還有您關心的包括秋刀魚等漁場的這些所謂的遠洋經濟性的部分"},{"start":7244.7,"end":7260.225,"text":"您剛才關心的部分是包括我們在太平洋這邊所比較大型的就叫尾旗沙的部分其實都有一些的規劃以113年剛才已經也跟委員報告還有我們會員報告的部分就是我們在沿近海的這一塊"},{"start":7261.245,"end":7289.936,"text":"總共抽了3000件那對於所謂的遠洋的部分我們抽了240件那這裡面就包括秋刀魚的部分還有就是所謂的尾鰭沙的部分那秋刀魚的部分是規劃了100就是射所謂的90件還有就是那個穿的部分90件還有尾鰭沙的部分各30件就是60件的部分總共240件到目前為止因為還沒有進入產季就是秋刀魚的部分是在下半年"},{"start":7290.476,"end":7306.909,"text":"的部分目前的部分呢遠洋的緯淇沙的部分已經抽了四件那那個秋刀魚是之前回國的部分現在不是川的部分也抽了兩件那目前的部分的情形就是都是OK的小魚的以上好好"},{"start":7308.607,"end":7325.269,"text":"就下一個主題想跟主委討論就是本週六4月7反核佔領行動10週年這個有請這個訴求就在昨天相關的團體又有再一次召開記者會他堅定反對修法"},{"start":7325.969,"end":7335.196,"text":"讓老舊核電廠研議因為還有許多欠缺考量的地方那本席也有跟主委有提到就是老舊核電廠研議有龐大的經濟跟所謂的環境成本同時主委也認同"},{"start":7341.801,"end":7359.31,"text":"左手處理這個核廢料是目前我們積極要面對的課題那上一次核安會來報告的時候許多委員都有問到說這個燃料核燃料乾式主存槽的進度那根據我們辦公室的了解台電公司跟新北市政府"},{"start":7359.89,"end":7378.385,"text":"已經在今年4月1日完成行政調解那肯定依照行政調解結果要4月16日提出核一廠用過核燃料中期儲存計畫的水土保持計畫也就是第二次邊跟設計的文件要送交新北市政府來審查"},{"start":7379.466,"end":7396.613,"text":"那目前這個進度我們看起來核廢料的處理仍是未解跟棘手的問題那所以很多委員提案修法說讓老舊的核電廠來研議我覺得這是相當欠缺思考的做法那還有就是說讓核電廠繼續運作本來就是有違台灣持續進行的能源政策"},{"start":7403.596,"end":7419.275,"text":"那修管制辦法開放這個研議可能總不可能讓當前已經廚藝或者正在廚藝中準備廚藝中的核電廠在冒著風險繼續運作所以也絕不可能再找新的地方來興建新的核電廠"},{"start":7420.356,"end":7433.034,"text":"那所以部分委員提的這個核子反應設施研議的修法顯然是忽視了核一、核二已經進入了主義階段那核三也提出核主義的這個計畫的現況那主委你認為"},{"start":7437.809,"end":7451.217,"text":"這樣子 國民黨這樣的提案是不是非常的沒有辦法的執行跟 如果這樣的提案是不是國民黨那他要再怎麼拿哪些執政縣市去蓋核電廠嗎"},{"start":7454.346,"end":7480.085,"text":"這個的確是比較困難的議題那麼我想核安會是獨立的安全管制機關那對特定的擁核緩和我想我們不做具體的應該秉持比較公正的方法因為我們畢竟是技術本位可是我們是就核安就核安這個點上面來看研議的狀況那當然"},{"start":7482.501,"end":7504.59,"text":"對我舊核案來看您也說過確實是有很多難題的確都是有很多難題那不然就不會現在有這麼多的討論跟提議那麼這個還需要一些我想社會上大多數人的認同或者是共識還有再一些努力"},{"start":7506.816,"end":7531.998,"text":"此遊行預計要復刻2014年佔領行動在現場播放核災警報邀請很多民眾躺在中山南路上表達反核電研議的訴求過去我們持續進行核電廠周遭地區和核安演習然而我想台灣一座那麼小小的島嶼全國都是命運共同體"},{"start":7532.799,"end":7556.818,"text":"所以是不是也必須要全國人民有基本的核災應對的意識那如何能做到那當然我們都不希望看到任何的災難來發生但基本的概念一定還是要深植人民的心中那加上最近地震頻傳所以核災警報若跟很多則的地震警報混雜在一起那人民如何應對所以主委這點你怎麼看"},{"start":7558.439,"end":7577.917,"text":"這個在我們官網跟這個APP核安一點通大概都有可以點來聽聽看那麼核災的部分我想主要是核電廠周邊的區塊的居民這是優先這是優先這也就是我們的APP它其實"},{"start":7579.031,"end":7598.832,"text":"推廣的率其實是相對的侷限因為主要的新北市、石門、萬里、恆春我們還會繼續努力這一塊但是現在在我們的網頁上其實你可以點來聽聽看 沒有問題所以兩者是有很大的差別"},{"start":7602.897,"end":7620.452,"text":"核安會書面報告中有提到境外核災是最有可能影響台灣的輻射程不過我想全國人民對於境外核災的即時應對的意識是否充足核安會是否有盡到全民核災的防災教育這一點也請主委要特別的關心"},{"start":7622.313,"end":7635.88,"text":"想要請教主委最後一個問題就是說我們最有可能影響台灣的境外輻射程核安會怎麼如何向人民宣達這個防災的概念那什麼時候可以有效於落實這方面的全國的教育"},{"start":7637.753,"end":7662.365,"text":"這個部分當然我們都持續的關切一個是日本一個是中國大陸那麼這個部分我剛才也跟其他委員報告我們每年都有定期的防災的演練今年是河安30號那麼在河一場那去年是河二場在河安29號那麼我們動員多少人呢?超過1萬人去年"},{"start":7663.145,"end":7664.245,"text":"主委辛苦,謝謝主席"},{"start":7689.175,"end":7698.102,"text":"我們再來請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在我們再來請羅廷偉委員好 謝謝主席 有請陳主委有請陳主委羅委員好好 主委你好主委最近地震頻傳喔我們的核能還好嗎目前還好"},{"start":7719.468,"end":7731.016,"text":"目前有沒有任何的災損或者是內部需要報休損傷我們0403地震合一場合二場有燃料池的水溢出總共加起來大概3600升"},{"start":7733.442,"end":7737.944,"text":"日本經濟新聞要準總統賴清德重新評估核電政策主委有沒有什麼回應?"},{"start":7764.769,"end":7791.509,"text":"我想國際媒體或者是國內媒體都有不同的一些評論那麼我們都可以聽到不同多元的聲音那麼核安會其實持續都在關注所有各種不同的聲音但是我也跟委員報告核安會是核能安全的管制的獨立機關他不是"},{"start":7795.911,"end":7817.175,"text":"主管機關是經濟部的一個業務啦那當然我要講的是在核安會第四次赴日時日方問台方台灣現在有三座核電廠是否有新的核電廠的一個規劃台方的回答非核家園是台灣的能源政策台灣對此立場並未改變因此沒有新的核電廠的一個規劃在日方當下就敢回答"},{"start":7817.415,"end":7846.406,"text":"回到國內我現在問你你就說不敢回答而且甚至就跟我講說是經濟部的一個業務那我想我們就直接回應嘛非核家園就是台灣最重要的一個能源政策這是目前執政黨最堅定不移的一個能源政策的一個方向但是我想問題一我們在這個本次報告所稱到含氚的一個廢水現在就是核能安全委員會112年12月25日參加第九屆台日核能管制"},{"start":7847.506,"end":7871.426,"text":"資訊交流會議及參訪核能設施出國報告內所稱的ALPS的處理水對嗎?好請問福島縣沿岸海域的海水ALPS的處理水排放前後設137活度穿活度變動範圍各為多少?最高濃度值為多少?較前次排放有無略高?"},{"start":7875.172,"end":7875.933,"text":"請同仁回答"},{"start":7903.451,"end":7915.814,"text":"的一個全球的一個背景來略高那但是那日本都有在做監控我們也持續關注叫全球的背景略高啦吼那有沒有比上一次排放有略升高有掌握嗎目前整個大數據來看是都還都在一定的範圍以內"},{"start":7924.858,"end":7945.818,"text":"好一定的範圍內我覺得你回答的有點模糊讓我不能夠分析你到底回答的內容齁我覺得這個部分資料你是不是可以再讓我們更確切的知道一下我想我們應該掌握是有沒有更高而不是在範圍內我就聽不懂到底我要不要跟我們的民眾來做好這個相關的防範我們到底要不要吃海鮮這些問題我要去做評估阿"},{"start":7946.218,"end":7971.823,"text":"所以這個制度裡面的數值你可能要提供會後資料給我了解一下但是主委對於含氚廢水我們現在是111年開始台灣總共4度派員赴日調查我們請問這4次的赴日報告你都有看過嗎最近一次因為我那時候上任已經上任了最近一次去年的10月底到11月的初"},{"start":7973.035,"end":7999.372,"text":"好 那我們就這四次的報告我們來就請教主委第四次的報告我跟樓委員報告是第四次有看因為那時候我在上面好 沒關係沒關係那我們就第四次的問題來跟您詢問一下主委 上次你是不是還記得我3月28 原能會的對不起 我們核能會的業務報告我依第三次赴日報告內容詢問我們的教養的大型分析研究中心是否拿到ISO認證的問題"},{"start":8000.792,"end":8029.144,"text":"那時候核安會跟其他同仁代表跟主委回覆要再確認主委確認到現在快一個月連一個通知都沒有都不用通知我都不用跟我講核安會是真的螺絲鬆了還是來的次數教委會的次數太少了完全沒在甩教育文化委員會有點誤會那個抱歉那個我們當天就確認他已經拿到ISO當天就確認那這個部分我們如果有一些疏忽"},{"start":8029.904,"end":8030.224,"text":"請勿模仿"},{"start":8047.712,"end":8075.79,"text":"四次的赴日查證報告第三十頁主委你自己也可以看到我們提出了三個問題我方提出第三方的獨立採樣取樣性、代表性以及日方已經回歸他有回覆依規定只能夠由設施經營者取樣以大雄分析中心他不能夠取樣那我方也做一個東電公司以及佳雅的分析結果是否出現不一致日方答覆有關數據第三方"},{"start":8076.69,"end":8099.771,"text":"只求準確性是否不一致並非第三方要注意的我方這個部分還做一個大雄分析實驗中心實驗室辦理認證進度然後日方那當時也回覆ISO正在進行中這個我已經有得到你剛剛的一個回應了那我想我們現在要跟你詢問"},{"start":8101.485,"end":8111.312,"text":"如果第四次還在說要設ISO那為什麼你剛剛還跟我講說已經取得了這個相關的認證?你的報告裡面這樣寫的啊?"},{"start":8116.813,"end":8139.93,"text":"報告委員這個報告是我們出國以後去年10月出國以後的一個撰寫的所以在11月的時候的一個撰寫那現在都是在3月的時候我們就有確定了他們已經取得了ISO的一個認證所以我覺得追蹤問題是不是應該是你最重要的一個進度尤其11月你就在問到3月我問你的時候你才準備再去問他"},{"start":8140.911,"end":8168.429,"text":"那12月、1月、2月這個不用去追問他我覺得這部分是螺絲有點鬆了那第一題跟第二題我剛剛有問的嘛主委大雄分析中心現在是較早設置在福島的一個部門位於福島第一核電廠主要進行福島第一核電廠放射性廢棄物與燃料碎片的分析研究並為經產省指定之LPS處理水監測第三面驗證單位本席就想請問"},{"start":8169.79,"end":8192.433,"text":"既然大雄分析研究中心是經過審定指定為ALPS處理水監測第三方的一個驗證單位但是對於取樣的部分日方回應依規定僅能由設施經營者來取樣教養分析中心是不能夠去取樣的那只能受政府委託分析但可"},{"start":8193.334,"end":8209.429,"text":"共同見證取樣而取樣的代表性由東電公司負責諸位可見第三方的具有獨立取樣及取樣代表性都沒有請問哪需要設立第三方檢測單位這樣做第三方的檢測單位意義何在"},{"start":8211.011,"end":8227.755,"text":"我想取樣的單位就像我們這個國家海域計畫取樣的單位跟我們實驗檢測的單位其實它是分開的對 是分開的但是我們現在就擔心嘛它取的樣並不是我們最直接最想要去了解的"},{"start":8228.75,"end":8243.542,"text":"他這個各個部門有一些分工比如說我們海水進口失誤、抽檢我們在國內也是不同的部會在做負責但是他的這些樣品"},{"start":8244.485,"end":8273.631,"text":"他其實不會去講什麼樣的具體的內容但是呢他送到我們實驗室來大概就是一個編號那我們實驗室做一些檢測那麼結果呢我們再送回原來送樣的單位那麼由他們來公布那麼我們整合性的儀表板其實就是我們把會診各部會的所有的資訊放在那邊所以你可以一次就看到所有的資訊跟委員報告"},{"start":8274.261,"end":8299.409,"text":"好那再者我想我PPT2我看一下我們大雄分析的研究中心去年已參與JCAC辦理的實驗室間的比對活動未來也考慮參與IAEA辦理的實驗室間比對請主委顯然那個大雄分析研究中心並未符合IR以及NRA審查標準主委你有沒有什麼答覆"},{"start":8300.883,"end":8316.541,"text":"我們這個比對就是實驗室之間他實驗的精確度他通常是要跟別的單位去做一些比較同樣的試體同樣的試片那做一些比較那麼我們也藉此來"},{"start":8318.603,"end":8332.683,"text":"確認或者是有信心來了解我們目前的實驗的步驟或者是準確性的相關的認知那麼我們輻射偵測中心其實也有做相關的事情那麼所以我們其實是有經過這個認證的好"},{"start":8335.31,"end":8351.938,"text":"那在報告的第16頁我方有提問日方也曾邀請IAEA的環境放射性分析實驗室IOMO的成員參與檢視海水分析的一個作業不知我國的實驗室是否也有機會參與類似的一個活動與實驗室之間分析比對有嗎?"},{"start":8353.345,"end":8367.507,"text":"我們跟日本的分析中心有一個合作應該是有比對實驗就是我們的輻射偵測中心所以跟日本其實是有一些的連結"},{"start":8369.1,"end":8382.658,"text":"我希望我們所有這些不管是實驗室的一些派員去了解我們都希望能夠更整密目的就是希望實驗室所做出的任何報告都能夠有助於我們做相關的一個評估"},{"start":8383.539,"end":8412.507,"text":"做相關的政策因應畢竟這樣子的一個排放水對我們大家來說都是前所未見我們也希望在這個部分上我們可以看到有更緊密更謹慎的一個相關評估那排放了30年才放完誰敢保證30年間都沒有問題日本於本月19日中午開始執行第5批次LOP處理水海洋排放水作業預計排放19天那我想這個組成專家去做安全的一個審查"},{"start":8412.987,"end":8434.426,"text":"我想我國的一個作為目前有什麼可以取得多少相關資訊這個部分我們持續關注跟東京電力那剛才我跟委員報告我們在駐日的代表處我們核安會有一個專任的人員派駐在那個地方所以我們會第一手拿到相關的資訊"},{"start":8436.291,"end":8463.938,"text":"好我想這樣子最後30年的排放剛剛才開始他的生態後果、經濟後果、政治後果值得關注我還是要提醒注意三點應要求日方同意台灣及其他所有利益國長期時間可以去做定期取得這個距離排放口較近的一個區域進行海水取樣並吸回分析然後除確保穿輻射"},{"start":8464.958,"end":8489.555,"text":"符合其限制裡面 驗證的一個各種活度是否正常也可以確認LPS的入渠效果能夠是否就衰減因素第二個時間即便現在沒有問題連排30年持續的嚴密的監督畢竟這是前所未有的一個大規模排放這是我剛剛有提到可能現在的技術手段和科技水平並無法"},{"start":8489.955,"end":8516.878,"text":"更準確的推斷或者是未知之數我們都是用最整密、最嚴格的標準去看待這件事情那不應該聚焦在氚的一個危害即便有數據說明氚對人體無害比較令人擔心的是和原先核廢水相比氚還有數十種放射性的物質例如其他點、色很有可能在淨化過程中未備百分百我們更希望在這個部分能夠有"},{"start":8517.94,"end":8522.868,"text":"更大幅度的一個關注這部分也麻煩何安慧 可以嗎好 沒有問題好 謝謝好 謝謝羅廷文委員那我們再來休息五分鐘齁"},{"start":8863.39,"end":8863.55,"text":"主席陳珠瑋"},{"start":8885.872,"end":8885.892,"text":"張委員"},{"start":8919.196,"end":8935.293,"text":"水勢所的船今年上半年它有一些故障另外就是有些時候是海象的問題天氣氣候的問題那麼我跟委員說明其實我們最近做了一些很大的努力"},{"start":8936.254,"end":8950.459,"text":"二、我去拜訪國科會主委那他下面的法人是海洋中心那麼他有這個海洋船利靜號那麼我們將來因為利靜號是做學校老師科研人員的這個科學檢測那麼我們"},{"start":8954.901,"end":8981.32,"text":"大概輻射偵測中心會有人去陪同去取海水所以會不定期的增加評次跟點位所以會把原來107點以外還會根據他們不同的船的行程再去補足一些的點所以這大概是什麼時候會開始啟動我想很快6月就會開始"},{"start":8982.121,"end":8987.459,"text":"6月就開始所以我們接下來下次等我6月之後再去看到的時候這些應該都會有一些更新都是應該是更新了對嗎是"},{"start":8989.531,"end":8990.472,"text":"核安會113年總預算"},{"start":9014.667,"end":9015.828,"text":"中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算"},{"start":9032.959,"end":9060.214,"text":"現在的公務人力會欲缺不補日後都會是需求改用這個願聘人力所以呢這個核安會的人事費補助就僅限於這些公務人力那之後改為願聘人員之後是不是這些所有的願聘人員的人事費都是由國務院院來自籌也就是說核安會過去補助給國務院院的人事費用會逐年的來遞減到最後一位公務人員退休就會歸零了嗎"},{"start":9062.884,"end":9081.457,"text":"這個是這樣子國研院現在是行政法人那麼跟財團法人是有相似的性質但是原來國研院是核菸索他們全部都是公務人員所以目前除了公務人員有相當大的量應該大概是7比3"},{"start":9082.738,"end":9102.491,"text":"其實主委這一題我只想要確認一下就是說我們接下來因為剛剛講了嘛就是說因為行政人、行政法人嘛說他開始自籌嘛所以過去我們補助的這些人士費用隨著公務人員退場之後我們應該就不會再去補助了是嗎是的但是我跟委員報告就是部會跟法人通常的關係會藉由計劃"},{"start":9104.312,"end":9120.61,"text":"那麼人員的薪水有一些是在計劃裡面付的所以他可以編多少人力這就是計劃人力的部分而已嘛 對不對而且計劃人力他有不同的rank不同的職稱他可以很高的他也可以是一般"},{"start":9121.03,"end":9150.066,"text":"了解我懂那其實這一題我主要是想要接續的來問就是說因為我們必須要自籌了可是我也看到說我們國研院自籌經費卻是逐年在下降的105年的時候還有10.5億那到112年只剩下7.4億所以就變成說接下來國研院可能要自籌10億唷他才有辦法去支付他現在的一個人事支出所以我想要了解我們自籌款到底是為什麼下降了那我們"},{"start":9150.526,"end":9177.419,"text":"如果它真的持續下降那核安會真的有辦法逐年減少這些人事的補助嗎?那個我先答一下這個逐年下降是有人離開離職大部分是退休所以它是漸進式的它不會是一下子全部變沒用委員聽得懂我意思嗎?所以這個人事費它會逐年的遞減"},{"start":9179.06,"end":9200.287,"text":"對我知道但是我們現在講的是自籌的部分嘛因為我們需要有自籌能力啊因為現在夏林可能就不會再補助他這些公務人力了嘛所以就是你現在自籌人力是逐年下降的啊那這個原因是什麼報告委員那個因為我們原來從核能就核電相關的計畫得到比較多的計畫就是比對於105年開始那因為電廠也逐漸這個"},{"start":9205.289,"end":9226.91,"text":"停止運轉所以我們一些相關的委託計畫也跟著萎縮所以萎縮了大概兩成到三成所以到目前這幾年都維持大概7億那這樣就會有個問題接下來我們還是會努力就是想辦法再去找其他像新能源或者其他"},{"start":9227.43,"end":9228.291,"text":"核能安全委員會主管預算"},{"start":9257.63,"end":9275.171,"text":"對國研院其實還不夠熟悉我不太知道你們平常研究出什麼樣子的成果所以我就去看了一下我們現在著作數量我們的數量其實是持續在下降70%的關於研究都是院內報告可是我查了你們的網站也沒有看到院內報告的查詢系統"},{"start":9277.113,"end":9291.835,"text":"那我們現在呢大概是有500位的一個研究人力可是每年發表的大概就是國內外的期刊、會議論文、海報等等的數量卻還是逐年下降的你可以看到這張我們做這個表"},{"start":9292.896,"end":9322.217,"text":"所以就是說第一個發表量減少那為什麼都是院內報告院內報告是可以公開給大家來瞭解和國研院的嗎那或者是說為什麼這五年呢我們對於這些國際的論文也還是在持續減少的那甚至是說我們的國內院內的發表系統扣除掉機密文件之後是不是都可以讓大家來去公開參閱這樣子我覺得才可以讓大家更瞭解國研院啦那這樣子對我們在自籌經費才會有幫助那是不是可以請院長來回覆一下"},{"start":9323.198,"end":9336.108,"text":"報告委員,我們的院內報告有些是跟一些單位像國內最大的半導體公司委託我們做一些實驗那這個都是機敏性要簽保密協定的"},{"start":9337.625,"end":9362.552,"text":"但是這樣子是佔很大的數量嗎?佔一部分的數量部分的約內報告如果說大概有七成左右是一般的報告但是因為放在網路上因為約內的報告就是我們希望這個約內的報告希望能夠透過再整合的方式再公佈在外面不然這七八百件"},{"start":9363.44,"end":9386.622,"text":"要來搜尋也蠻困難的好 我了解了那我們是不是因為聽起來就是院內我們還要再努力看怎樣把它公開嘛那我們是不是可以鼓勵大家多投國際的一些期刊做院外的發表因為回到重點嘛我們就是要自籌嘛那自籌一定要有一定的一個研究實力讓大家可以可信嘛所以這部分我們是不是可以有一些機制來鼓勵大家呢報告委員"},{"start":9387.583,"end":9405.916,"text":"相對於10年前我們核營所最新生的時候福島事件之前有1500位總共員工包括資源的人力但是現在剩不到1000位所以相對這個數量也逐年在減少但是我們會要求比較高品質我們希望投稿的時候要中這個品質"},{"start":9406.896,"end":9424.35,"text":"因配合的比較高的我們會鼓勵我們感覺上是應該要影響力最大的這個期刊我們再來鼓勵或者專利因為專利如果一昧的投那這沒有應用價值我想我們也很難一昧的投啦因為其實國外期刊也不是那麼好投嘛對不對"},{"start":9425.171,"end":9445.18,"text":"所以應該是我們還是要鼓勵大家盡量去啦畢竟我們還是要提供這個公信力嘛不然我們就是會遇到這個自籌款部的問題因為我還是非常擔心就像我一直以來都會說其實我非常關注我們研究人員可不可以得到一個很好的薪資因為這些東西就是跟這個環環相扣所以這部分一定要來持續的努力那院內的報告要怎麼樣公開這我們會持續來追蹤 謝謝好 謝謝委員好 謝謝 謝謝張雅玲委員 主委請回我們接下來請葉元芝委員"},{"start":9461.877,"end":9464.698,"text":"麻煩請主委,謝謝好,有請陳主委主委好,因為我們核安會其實跟我們一般民眾的健康非常有關我有注意到,你們其實在2018、2019年那時候還蠻積極去查一些我們的商品有沒有輻射超標的問題還有都有發新聞稿當時,像2019年說去棲查25件東西就有18件"},{"start":9491.689,"end":9517.879,"text":"18件的產品它是有輻射超標的可是2019年之後包括2020、2021、2022我們看到好像被查到的輻射超標的商品就少很多因為我不曉得說是你們最近沒有配合消保出去稽查還是說我得到的數據是不精準的數據所以想就這個部分跟你請教一下但是我也不想要讓大家產生恐慌"},{"start":9518.879,"end":9532.868,"text":"因為我現在是要針對有負離子標榜有負離子的商品請主委先稍微可不可以一分鐘跟大家講一下我們這個負離子的東西它是由哪些方式組成的有哪些方式可以產生負離子"},{"start":9534.889,"end":9559.281,"text":"有一些是天然的有一些是特意添加當然有一些是噱頭就是商業的行銷有一些是摩擦產生有一些是放電的我們現在比較有可能會造成輻射超標的負離子產品它是用什麼方式產生的負離子"},{"start":9560.506,"end":9588.609,"text":"主要是刻意啦刻意什麼就是intentionally就是說刻意的去添加添加的嘛就是如果說它是添加的磨成粉的然後混到商品上的就比較容易產生輻射超標嘛那有一些床墊之前有床墊被你們稽查到就是因為這樣產生的嘛對不對那請教一下為什麼到了2020、2021、2022我這邊手上資料2020年只有稽查到三件輻射超標的商品2021只有兩件2022只有一件"},{"start":9590.51,"end":9598.176,"text":"請問一下你們每一年總共稽查幾件?幾件商品?那個我請張組長來回答你不曉得報告委員一開始2018年的時候就是等於是跟就是引進了韓國的這種不當添加所以我們那時候也有重視源頭就是這種不當的那個那個粉粉的一個不用盤古開天我問很簡單啦你們稽查幾件?我們目前的話跨部會跟那個"},{"start":9622.237,"end":9637.093,"text":"標準檢驗局跟我們的衛福部是要數這邊我們是40件一年40件哪一年40件平均一年40件對 但是實際上有一些是真正買的時候怎麼那麼少 主委怎麼那麼少"},{"start":9638.629,"end":9664.455,"text":"你們之前2018、2019那時候把這種負離子輻射超標講得超恐怖的耶說有的產品輻射超標76倍然後會造成血液跟細胞的病變當時發這新聞稿的時候國人開始注意到負離子這件事情結果後來到近三年每一年只平均積查40件然後抽查的件數這麼的少那代表說你們現在忽然覺得負離子的產品輻射超標不重要了嗎"},{"start":9667,"end":9694.605,"text":"我想是這樣子就是說如果抽到的比率降低那麼我們這個次數就可以少一點廢話嘛你現在你聽聽看你自己在講什麼你說抽少一點就可以發現少一點我們現在是希望核安會找到多一點有問題的商品出來結果你告訴我說抽少一點就可以發現少一點業委員業委員我講的是顛倒我說如果發現比率降低我們就可以抽少一點"},{"start":9696.153,"end":9706.943,"text":"對,40,不管是發現比率多低啦你抽40件還是非常的少啦你40件是平均大概五天才,大概40件的話你很多天才抽一件嘛"},{"start":9708.488,"end":9731.638,"text":"這個部分我想我們可以再來評估一下看怎麼樣合理的量度所以其實我們在這邊是提醒你抽太少了那你居然回答我說可以抽少一點沒關係因為我們發現比較少而且你這個抽樣也不符合統計上的數據啊你怎麼知道你抽40樣就發現一件這套多少一套這跟你抽的區域有關嘛跟你抽的樣品的對象有關嘛"},{"start":9732.538,"end":9745.559,"text":"對不對你如果是抽1068件符合統計的意義發現逐漸的下降你講的搞不好還有道理啊你是抽40件你就告訴我說現在越來越少這在統計上你也是學者嘛你覺得這在統計上有意義嗎"},{"start":9748.451,"end":9771.991,"text":"請核安會站在大家的健康著想好不好因為是你告訴大家負離子的東西很嚴重嘛對嘛那不用再變了啦剛剛好像一副要吵架的樣子我今天講的是很名聲東西啦好不好再來啦既然核安會這麼重視我們的安全我想問一下這個有關於我還是想問一下有關於核電的問題因為我有看到主委你的授訪"},{"start":9773.188,"end":9794.515,"text":"你針對國民黨的立委有要提出要讓核電廠演繹的事情你說這個必須要有共識然後核安會是負責安全技術的對不對那個能源政策不是你們制定但我要提醒主委實際上你的一言一行對於社會能不能凝聚共識也是有影響力為什麼因為大家認為要不要有核電廠其實是"},{"start":9795.995,"end":9814.048,"text":"電機在核電廠安不安全這件事情如果核安會可以確保說核電廠是安全的當然大家會容易產生共識那我就請教主委因為最近昨天地震什麼最近大家都很關心地震的話題嘛403大地震後來又有很多次的餘震我想請教一下在這一波地震的這個問題當中核電廠有沒有發生問題"},{"start":9817.906,"end":9840.482,"text":"呃沒有合一零零四零三核電廠、核一廠、核二廠那麼有燃料池的水核一核二核一核二都會停機啦那核三有問題嗎核三沒有問題核三完全沒問題嘛因為他是在恆春那麼這個震度齁在這個花蓮那麼在南部地區他的震度特別低齁所以這個在氣象局的那個"},{"start":9841.323,"end":9863.364,"text":"地震的那個 那請教一下我們的核電廠當初在蓋的時候有做過耐震的評估嗎?大概可以耐震多少?幾級?當然有 它有一定的停機的標準就是說你到達一定的程度的時候它就自動 shut down 就自動停機所以即便是正央在屏東發生那麼大的地震其實核電廠應該還是可以撐得住嗎?"},{"start":9866.331,"end":9891.241,"text":"這個是有一點有風險我跟委員報告比如說核一、核二水溢出來那麼這一次是7.2級的地震在花蓮但是核一、核二廠你知道它的震度多少嗎它是2%到3%的重力加速度所以是相對的低的也就是說在那個區塊在那個地點它的震度是"},{"start":9891.681,"end":9892.521,"text":"主任委員會主席"},{"start":9921.392,"end":9942.673,"text":"願意接受核電了我想然後同時前之前又被徵詢要不要當行政院長可見現在民進黨高層是認為核電不是說不能用啦請教一下你最近有沒有接到什麼指示跟你講說有關於核電的發言要傾向於逐漸這個要開放的方向有沒有沒有沒有完全沒有沒有"},{"start":9942.984,"end":9968.486,"text":"那因為你上一次我們在質詢你的時候你講了一句很耐人尋味的話啦你說核電安不安全你不知道有發生事情就是不安全沒發生事情就是安全這句話很玄啦我也參透蠻久的啦那請問那請教一下這個剛剛因為我剛剛問的問題你沒有回答啦你沒有回答啦那我希望說核電因為時間到了啦我們還是希望核安會可以秉持著讓核電安全的角度對不對這是你們的工作嘛"},{"start":9968.986,"end":9984.31,"text":"這一定的那對外的發言我覺得應該秉持著自己的專業跟良心不應該配合執政者的意識形態好 謝謝謝謝葉委員好 謝謝葉元芝委員主委請回好 我們接下來請陳培宇委員好 謝謝主席那有請主委 謝謝好 有請陳主委"},{"start":10000.39,"end":10028.264,"text":"好 陳委員好好 主委早安那今天繼續跟您討論我們辦公室一直持續關心的這個問題由來在過去審查的部分呢我們其實跟你們一直討論到關於輻射防護跟服安管制的問題那之前呢主委也跟我們說過關於這個游離輻射防護法多年沒有修正的地方那去年核安衛有預告即將有修正草案那上個月在業務報告質詢的時候主委這邊也有提到是持續辦理修正草案的研議作業當中"},{"start":10029.164,"end":10047.475,"text":"目前再次跟主委確定目前的進度是?會等到行政院新的團隊上來再跟行政院做一些溝通所以這邊您會留任嗎?還是會持續做好交接跟討論嗎?這個不是很清楚沒關係"},{"start":10048.416,"end":10070.425,"text":"那我想我們應該更多委員都會一起關心這個議題喔主要是因為相關的一般民眾如果去做X光檢查的時候他們是偶爾接觸到可是我們更關心的是相關的從業人員他們因為工作的關係頻繁的接觸到放射線所以我們認為更需要積極的協助做劑量管制確保放射線不會對相關從人的身體造成什麼不健康的影響喔"},{"start":10071.545,"end":10088.547,"text":"所以關於核安會的修法方向我們也再次提醒請協助降低從業人員的劑量那我想你們一直表現出很積極的態度這邊先感謝主委跟給予肯定但同時你們有提到後續還會做不預警的稽查這個部分是不是也請主委再次回應一下"},{"start":10089.969,"end":10109.25,"text":"這個部分是我們一直在努力的我之前有講過胡適環境、人員的安全我們今年這次上個月到這個月我們多做了哪些事情我們給所有的護理學校"},{"start":10110.325,"end":10127.966,"text":"大專業院校大三以上的學生我們有38家我們會辦理10場的教育訓練活動所以這個前一陣子陳敬明委員上一屆的那他還寫了那樣來感謝我就是說這個部分"},{"start":10129.968,"end":10137.59,"text":"今年也配合新島管事加入屏保的作業對 那其實這個也是後續我要問到那如果我覺得這個部分有除了開始相關課程之外我想課程之後針對學生或是上課的從業人員給予相關的問卷確保是不是你們提供的課程真的有服務到他們現場的需要我想這個部分也要請主委後續再繼續的督促相關課程的進行"},{"start":10157.637,"end":10179.156,"text":"關於商用航空空勤人員他們接觸到宇宙射線在輻射防護、空勤人員劑量管制的部分目前你們的規劃有沒有機會納入後續這個游離輻射法的防護規範之下嗎?有的,那個這個空勤人員一般那個ICRP就是國際的學會大概就是5到10個豪溪火每年"},{"start":10180.497,"end":10193.845,"text":"台灣一般來講因為我們是緯度比較低所以大概沒有這樣的問題但是今年10月我們跟民航局有要合作在這個部分做空情人員宇宙線的管理示範計畫"},{"start":10204.011,"end":10232.852,"text":"那麼這個部分我們是會結合相關的人員來做一個試辦計畫那麼也跟六家國內的航空公司做合作那麼來試辦一下就是說空情人員那麼他健康檢查他的這個情況怎麼樣那麼得到的數據也會提供給航空公司作為他們調整航班跟班次跟評次的一些參考"},{"start":10237.193,"end":10255.018,"text":"十月跟民航局會召開會議六家國內航空公司和國營航空公司會進行後續討論從此把相關數據作為後續研議入法的可能性我相信我們這些所有的準備跟研議都是為了相關從業人員的安全所以這個部分也要拜託主委持續監督"},{"start":10256.998,"end":10283.749,"text":"好 謝謝那接下來關於一樣還是要談到這個含氚廢水的事情其實在前一個會期包含主委那個趙偉、伊金委員也提到就是中國排放這個核廢水的事情那因為我們知道日本方他們提供相關的數字是比較科學跟比較積極的而且應該相對是公開透明的可是我想很多人都在關心跟擔心那中國這邊不知道主委您這邊目前的掌握進度是"},{"start":10285.264,"end":10310.217,"text":"這個部分我們也正在進行中國大陸沿岸核電廠有58座台有十幾座在興建當中這個部分除了我們海域的量測監視之外剛才我有提到我們將來會利用海岩船增加不同的點位跟頻次來估算"},{"start":10312.541,"end":10319.44,"text":"來實際量測相關的這些含氚廢水的一些情況另外一方面"},{"start":10320.458,"end":10341.356,"text":"我們也跟氣象署、國研院跟氣象署合作做擴散跟洋流的預報模式來了解我們臺灣海峽部分的一個情況過去我們是針對日本寒川廢水那麼我們今年應該是第三季吧會來做這些擴散的模擬跟委員說明"},{"start":10342.257,"end":10362.092,"text":"第三季會開始執行相關研究可是後續公佈的頻率呢?或是我們如何讓國人安心?自主檢測我們當然相信我們台灣的研究量能可是有沒有可能有一些我們沒有辦法探測到他們不清楚的但是可能還是會引起國人擔心的部分?"},{"start":10362.813,"end":10374.032,"text":"那這個部分我們還會來細緻化的討論跟精進然後來瞭解一下看看怎麼樣可以比較完整那後續的公佈頻率目前有沒有預定的方向跟可能性的規劃我們還在"},{"start":10377.765,"end":10392.376,"text":"因為我想再一次還是要提醒就是其實關於日本含氚廢水的部分我相信你們已經也做了非常多不管是網路上的圖卡或是說明或是像這樣子在業務報告當中也不斷提出訴求希望讓國人安心可是我想要中國這個部分確實是讓大家會比較擔心相對擔心的"},{"start":10395.638,"end":10424.938,"text":"所以我剛剛問到除了你們相關的研究計畫之外公布的頻率或是後續跟國人溝通的管道我想這也是那個主委這邊要一再的督促相關的同仁是不是要更加友善的溝通因為我想溝通不是只是把訊息散播出去而是讓兩端的人共同走到一個可以對話的平台上那我想這個溝通平台另外一端應該是台灣的國民台灣的公民關心相關還有包含台灣的漁民喔所以我想這個部分是不是再請這邊主委多做一些說明或可能性的規劃"},{"start":10425.618,"end":10436.548,"text":"好 那我們會再來努力一下好 以上好 那謝謝主委最後我還有1分鐘那可不可以請一下海委會現場有同仁來 對嗎好 謝謝那主委請回座 謝謝"},{"start":10440.15,"end":10461.554,"text":"我想這邊就快速跟海委會確定一下我知道其實你們在週末已經做了相關釐清了但是我想我們還是讓你們說明一下關於這個民眾通報然後我想你們也跟台北市這邊有合作快速去到了現場那我們一下子聽到他們到底是不是真的禁錮還是說是假的然後但是是廣告不實還是到底發生了什麼事情目前這邊可不可以請您快速回應一下"},{"start":10462.039,"end":10463.501,"text":"海保署已經在送驗當中,結果多久會出來?"},{"start":10475.137,"end":10490.835,"text":"目前的規劃是?對不起我們沒有準備到這個但我們會回去了解那我們辦公室也持續跟你們追蹤好嗎?因為我想非常多海洋保育團體還有所有去到現場的民眾都非常的詫惡就是怎麼會發生這樣的事情但我們知道你們第一時間有出動去關心所以後續我們辦公室也會持續再跟你們追蹤相關議題討論好謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":10496.886,"end":10518.997,"text":"好 謝謝陳培鈺委員那主席在這裡再宣告一下就是本來一開始有說是林倩啟委員這個質詢完之後我們要來處理這個解凍案跟臨時提案那現在改為吳佩奕委員這個質詢完我們再來處理接下來我們請林倩啟委員謝謝"},{"start":10532.303,"end":10543.748,"text":"謝謝趙偉那我這邊請這個核安會主委陳主委那是不是副主委一起就是相助一下主委有請陳副主委跟張副主委"},{"start":10545.269,"end":10566.19,"text":"另外外交部也有代表是不是劉專偉嗎?如果是劉專偉這邊因為有一些好請外交部劉專偉好謝謝非常感謝主委前幾天來跟本席這邊做一些說明那有一些本席注意到的重點那這邊也蠻清楚的"},{"start":10566.91,"end":10571.851,"text":"昨天也看了大家單位的專案報告整個敘述20頁總共6343頁針對這個主題寫得也蠻詳盡的我簡單的歸類一下關於去年112年8月24日日本開始確定執行含氚廢水的排放"},{"start":10590.276,"end":10606.027,"text":"那應該是貴會就是核安會那協同的外交部、海委會、農業部、衛福部、交通部的相關部會然後向我們大院來報告這個整個周遭海域含氚廢水的監控與現在還有未來的因應那"},{"start":10607.708,"end":10630.702,"text":"看來我們是非常嚴密的監控日本排放的動態還有每天的擴散動線這個主委之前有講過還有強化海域的輻射的監測那落實資訊的公開所以剛才也有委員這邊提到那未來有一些的資訊那如果有一些新的因素加了進去那未來應該怎麼讓民眾來知道那這個部分也很感謝貴會"},{"start":10631.863,"end":10658.081,"text":"那重要的結論就是一切都在掌握當中那請國人放心那那個本席這邊有一些想法跟建議那這個東西本席在你們報告非常的明確那這大家的一起合作那大家都可以放心那今天也各部會都有人出席但是我覺得事實上很重要的是核安會整體的成員那個專業程度就我跟你們的接觸是無庸置疑的"},{"start":10659.181,"end":10676.528,"text":"過去核安會包括在現在為醫學領域的貢獻是非常多的是不是大家可以考慮一下摒除所有非理性的反核的政治氛圍我知道貴會在目前的醫學領域還是投入了非常多"},{"start":10677.208,"end":10691.736,"text":"那剛才有委員講到這個核能的一個發展感覺上現在在臺灣有點像過街老鼠但是確實在每一個階段就像櫃會講的核能不是只有拿來發電所以核能在各個醫學的"},{"start":10692.737,"end":10705.13,"text":"這個領域的投入還有目前相關的這個輻射的部分我相信櫃會是非常專業的所以如果能夠摒除這個政治的意識形態或許未來的發展會更為專業更正道那那個櫃會的專業絕對無庸置疑"},{"start":10709.355,"end":10727.549,"text":"好那所以這次日本的含氚廢水在專題報告上我們知道對象是日本那我們跟日本的這個關係應該算是還蠻有默契的所以這次他們應該對我們也算蠻友善的所以相關的數據還有我們要研議的一些因素他們應該是相對容易的獲得"},{"start":10728.49,"end":10753.841,"text":"那這邊呢就是在整備跟這個未來我想都沒有問題這日本跟我們的關係應該是沒問題但是呢亞洲地區關於有核電廠的國家像剛才前面的陳委員也提到中國那他就很關心如果中國也有這樣的議題呈現那就您剛才的一個回應看起來還是我們自己要來處理這件事情那我們就不知道中國給我們的數據會如何"},{"start":10755.222,"end":10781.608,"text":"那更何況在亞洲國家我知道好像印度那中國還有南韓都有那您在跟本席報告的時候我們知道台灣的海域然後跟日本的一個相互關係可是如果今天相似的事情出現在這些也有核能的國家那我們在外交的這個部分能夠也比較辦理嗎就是藉時那外交的這個關係能夠像這次日本這樣子這麼的"},{"start":10784.169,"end":10803.229,"text":"外交部,因為今天來的是台日關係的代表所以不知道您這邊或者是部裡面有沒有探討這樣一個議題也就是說日本跟我們是比較有默契的那如果在其他的幾個國家發生了相關的事情那我們應該怎麼辦"},{"start":10806.83,"end":10825.79,"text":"外交部一貫的立場就是會配合這個核安會他在實務上面有任何的需求呢我們都會盡力的去跟這個相關的國家來協商溝通好好好謝謝那剛才我這邊提醒是因為剛才陳委員其實也有先談到中國"},{"start":10826.691,"end":10845.852,"text":"其實不只中國跟印度我們知道在先前跟主委這邊討論的時候各個海域、洋流、湧等等有很多海域的狀況海委會也請多注意都不一樣所以我們是不是應該未雨綢繆一下現在我們是運氣還蠻好的跟我們關係不錯的日本您也是台日關係的一個代表"},{"start":10846.232,"end":10874.67,"text":"那是不是可以把這個資訊帶回到部裡面我們應該未雨綢繆那看市核安會呢要有一個兵棋推演那還是外交部這邊要先做一些準備所以這個是我這邊的一個提醒日本也曾經公佈我們其實也有排放這個廢水入海他說我們在2021年4月份也有這個我們已經敲定就是他們的這個廢水"},{"start":10875.891,"end":10898.699,"text":"排放了 那我們要很嚴密的監控那你們有一些數據公布了那我在這邊就不多談就是他們也公布了我們核三廠幾季的一個排放的廢水那這個包括法國的那個就是說排放廢水到海洋跟大氣裡面的一個狀況那這其實民眾沒有辦法知道的那麼清晰"},{"start":10899.099,"end":10925.47,"text":"有沒有可能這個會裡面可以把這個部分的資訊轉得相對比較清楚就像主委在跟本席這個報告的時候那對於就是這個承載量或者是就是最高值跟最低值的一個法定限值那讓民眾能夠清楚的知道那這個比例的兼具那大家會比較放心那"},{"start":10926.99,"end":10952.584,"text":"這個科學數據的一個基礎那怎麼樣合理安全我想這個是民眾對於核能安全了解的一個兩極化那我們常常都把很簡單的概念就這個等於那個那我們很感謝那個會裡面跟我們談到那個核能不只是只有發電而已那我們現在常常把那個A就等於B、B就等於C然後其實裡面有很細微的專業的因素那沒有辦法講清楚"},{"start":10953.444,"end":10978.039,"text":"就讓大家有些誤導那就變成兩極化然後非常的對立所以有沒有可能會裡面未來在這些安全值上那還有核能可以應用的層面上可以跟社會大眾用比較簡單的但是有科學根據的話語講清楚那因為這是非常專業的東西我們應該稍微這個逃脫政治的這個對立性那都是為大眾跟人民的安全"},{"start":10978.559,"end":10978.639,"text":"請勿模仿"},{"start":10993.516,"end":11018.214,"text":"我也會關心那個洋流啊、湧啊在各個不同的海域光是每一個港通通都不一樣每一個碼頭都有很大的差異那更何況我們不要講說天氣很好產生的熱對流所以我會關心這些很小的因素但是這是個人知道的因素我不好在這邊多講但是既然幾個部會一起來這個支撐核安會讓我們這樣主委非常注意這個核安全性的問題"},{"start":11018.974,"end":11047.496,"text":"那在安全之後呢那這個核安會應該可以有更大的功能尤其是有這麼素質齊全和優秀的這個同仁在這個會裡面那我這邊期待我們這個核能的科學能夠更精進那最後作為一個原住民我還是要談雖然會裡面也是有跟我講到有關於蘭嶼的這個核廢料的問題那我知道會裡面也一直在努力所以我就有幾個訴求就是持續的監控但是要非常細緻那定期的說明"},{"start":11048.297,"end":11070.043,"text":"就是也是一樣就是清楚的說明讓大家了解那當然大家心理層面都會被A等於V然後V就等於C這樣子的社會氛圍所影響所以怎麼樣突破這個然後最後就是確實的大家的這個心裡的害怕有沒有可能真的做到大家心裡的期待的移除那這還是要把它當件事情做短中長期的一個計劃好嗎"},{"start":11072.301,"end":11077.146,"text":"就謝謝各單位共勉之加油"},{"start":11082.125,"end":11104.599,"text":"謝謝 謝謝林倩琦委員主委請回我們接下來請羅志強委員羅志強羅志強委員不在我們請鄭天才委員鄭天才鄭天才委員不在我們請張家俊委員張家俊張家俊委員不在我們接下來請吳佩奕委員"},{"start":11112.619,"end":11115.609,"text":"謝謝主席,我請何安慧主委好,請陳主委"},{"start":11121.669,"end":11141.235,"text":"主委好,這個0403發生花蓮大地震那全台灣大家非常關心包括世界上很多國家都在關心台灣這一次地震之後我們第一時間以及後續震災的處置那一直到現在其實花蓮的餘震都不斷那有一件大家很關心的就是在這一次的花蓮地震當中我們的這個核電廠有沒有發生相關的災情那我們第一時間怎麼處置"},{"start":11148.283,"end":11168.352,"text":"那個我們第一時間因為是早上7點多快到8點第一時間就馬上去理解所有的可能的情況那麼可能不到9點的時候我們都已經釐清了馬上做因應那麼主要是核一廠、核二廠那麼燃料池的水有溢出來那加起來大概是3500升"},{"start":11170.68,"end":11172.462,"text":"獲得的核能安全委員會主管"},{"start":11186.015,"end":11189.657,"text":"核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管核能安全委員會主管"},{"start":11207.225,"end":11207.245,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":11228.696,"end":11251.559,"text":"過去應該是沒有啦就是第一次發生那我們燃料池的水因為這個不是一般的水它一出來之後我們的回收處置它這個回收的工作要怎麼樣進行是我們的工作人員你們大概有多少的人力要什麼樣的方式能夠來處理這個回收然後回收到什麼地方再把它裝回這個燃料池裡面嗎"},{"start":11252.897,"end":11272.816,"text":"欸 沒有齁 那個是這樣子齁 第一個就是確定不到廠區外 第一個那第二個它燃料池的水 它是有漏就是它有一個洩的孔 它會流到一個地方去集起來所以它才會 你可以計算出來它流的量是多少把它集中來做回收 那就把它放置在那個地方"},{"start":11276.115,"end":11288.471,"text":"燃料池一出來因為地震的關係其實大家會擔心那你們第一時間做了回收也做了檢測後續也持續的檢測目前是沒有安全的問題沒有"},{"start":11290.573,"end":11318.382,"text":"除了我們的核電廠以外清大裡面的這個水池式反應器是不是有發生溢出的情形我們核安會有沒有掌握有有有什麼樣的情況對它大概是比較少量大概10公升就像委員的這個PowerPoint裡面寫的那麼我們其實在第一時間都在本會的官網都有去"},{"start":11319.642,"end":11325.634,"text":"告知民眾這樣的訊息那麼當然最重要的就是目前是安全無虞"},{"start":11325.908,"end":11325.968,"text":"解凍案"},{"start":11355.908,"end":11382.529,"text":"管制我們的這個核子反應器的設施現行有沒有法規有,我們會裡面掌管非常多法規跟法律核子設施反應法核子反應器設施管制法那麼它還有幾十條的執法那麼內容相當的多那包含如何"},{"start":11383.47,"end":11388.751,"text":"我們的核子反應器設施管制法裡面我們就是再來管制我們反應器的興建以及運轉其中我們總則的第一條第一條明確寫到本法我們是要管制核子反應器設施來確保公眾安全"},{"start":11407.575,"end":11421.6,"text":"所以公眾的安全絕對是我們在做反應器的管制很重要我們目前在法裡面要求我們要去做管制跟管理的所以現在我們立法院裡面本院有不同的委員提出包括要推動核子反應器設施嚴厲條例草案"},{"start":11431.384,"end":11446.308,"text":"這我是反對因為呢我認為我們現行已經有法規在進行核子反應器的管制那直接在法案裡面名稱就入法是要推動我認為這個是侵害了我們行政權的裁決的範圍因為究竟要不要演繹這應該不是政治問題它應該是一個科學跟安全的問題我們立法院沒有這麼大"},{"start":11459.249,"end":11483.139,"text":"如果說什麼事情立法院、立委都立一個法條來決定的話那以後我們不需要專家我們以後不需要專業的公共政策的決策了所以我還是希望說公共政策的討論尤其核電的使用核電廠的研議牽涉到了公眾的安全性要回歸到專業回歸到科學來進行討論我覺得這才是根本之道"},{"start":11489.508,"end":11493.038,"text":"所以我反對立法院裡面直接要求要推動核子反應器研議要把它入法"},{"start":11497.878,"end":11522.087,"text":"立法院真的沒有這麼大所以這一點我希望我們可以一起來努力為台灣的公眾的安全來把關那最後呢我想要跟這個主委討論的是因為我在看一個教授的論文是過去在1985年的時候當時第一次台灣發現了我們有輻射物"},{"start":11523.407,"end":11525.947,"text":"這個1985年就是我出生前的兩年嘛然後呢 這個第一個發現在哪裡呢是在我們臺北的民生別墅的起源牙科那這個案件為什麼要提出來講這發生的經過是呢就是我們當時的原委會有派人去檢測他要使用X光機結果呢 那個X光機都還沒有通電就檢測出來說 有強烈的輻射現象"},{"start":11553.206,"end":11555.767,"text":"然後就開始來進行後續的這個調查但是呢當時委員會是黑箱處理第一個沒有告知牙科診所裡面的相關人員我們檢測到了輻射那原來這個是在哪裡就在他的建築物牆裡面的鋼筋裡面就具有輻射了"},{"start":11572.617,"end":11579.079,"text":"那我覺得這個是給我們一個很大的警惕跟教訓因為這個是公安的事件要秉持科學性來處理不能來政治的介入所以當時第一個不只是沒有告知當時牙科診所的人員然後呢也禁止媒體報導"},{"start":11592.623,"end":11596.604,"text":"一直是到後續陸續還有好幾個案件發生1992年的時候也是在我的選區廈門街台電宿舍也是一樣是我們有一個台電的員工他就是把這個輻射偵測器帶回家就小朋友拿出來玩結果就發現說怎麼在家裡就發現有異常的輻射現象那後來呢委員會才前往了監測"},{"start":11614.648,"end":11619.293,"text":"然後來開始進行拆除拆除下的剩下的輻射鋼筋送回我們核能研究所來儲存那我最後請問目前在台北市我們目前這樣子的輻射屋還剩下多少?"},{"start":11629.702,"end":11638.786,"text":"目前這個課題應該已經漸進的沒有了現在剩下7戶我們剩下7戶剩下7戶那麼我們大概預計在119年會因為自然輻射的衰減"},{"start":11647.449,"end":11651.312,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算 ﹐解凍案二、審查113年度中央政府總預算 ﹐解凍案二、審查113年度中央政府總預算 ﹐解凍案"},{"start":11665.615,"end":11690.264,"text":"那也跟委員報告因為輻射鋼筋的問題所以射源不小心融入到這個熔煉爐裡面那這個會造成很大的問題所以我們現在也有門框式的偵檢器做一些源頭的把關所以確定就是都大概會是安全的所以大約我們現在在市面上大概都會有做這樣的檢驗"},{"start":11692.346,"end":11703.712,"text":"福壽屋目前在台北市僅存7戶那我希望我們核安委還是要持續的跟這個民眾來保持聯繫讓他們知道接下來的情況如何來處置好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝吳佩儀委員主委請回好 那我們現在先來處理解凍案 私案請議事委員宣讀"},{"start":11717.472,"end":11739.51,"text":"一、核能安全委員會含為113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送稅出第二款第12項決議一、預算凍結書面報告請查照案二、核能安全委員會含為113年度中央政府總預算決議檢送稅出第二款第12項決議二、預算凍結書面報告請查照案三、核能安全委員會含為113年度中央政府總預算決議"},{"start":11740.291,"end":11762.18,"text":"解凍稅出第二款第12項決議三、預算凍結書面報告請查詔案四、核能安全委員會含為113年度中央政府總預算決議解凍稅出第二款第12項決議四、預算凍結書面報告請查詔案先讀完畢好 那第一案第一案是第一幕一般行政預算編列6億1220萬9千元凍結100萬元請問委員有無意見"},{"start":11770.899,"end":11795.277,"text":"沒有齁 那我們就予以動之提報院會好 第二案第二案是第二幕喔預算編列23億3866萬1千元凍結1千萬元這案有沒有意見好 柯志恩委員這一案喔可以嗎 這聲音 這聲音這聲音不夠好聽不夠大"},{"start":11803.373,"end":11830.369,"text":"好我覺得這一案裡面因為你有提到有關一個核一乾儲場的一個問題但是呢我必須要請核安會還是要釐清一些問題的癥結所在嘛因為你台電因為要申請水保計畫卻不按圖施工然後新北市因為有查到違法之後提出這個變更的設計那新北就是請這個台電補送修正後的水保的計畫但是台電"},{"start":11832.351,"end":11841.516,"text":"送13次也都不修正目前為止都沒有無卷可審沒有辦法審叫新北,新北審啥?河岸會是不是應該積極請臺電趕快補送水保計畫而不是讓臺電一直放話說是新北在卡乾除廠"},{"start":11849.281,"end":11852.302,"text":"這部分應該是做一個處理嗎?有沒有誰可以對這個問題提出一些?因為這個蠻重要的,到處都是被釐清啊,你的水保送了13次也不修正,然後到底目前是怎麼樣?我覺得這個東西很重要。還有上次我也質詢過我們的主委,特別提到了這個有關於核廢高放處的計畫。那現在不管是高放或是低放的部分,"},{"start":11871.966,"end":11874.689,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算"},{"start":11892.825,"end":11902.201,"text":"告訴我們一些目前進步到怎麼樣不過以前的問題到現在到底目前是如何我想這個應該是跟台電有關有沒有一些代表因為這是環環相扣的有沒有誰可以來回應我剛剛所點的這兩個問題"},{"start":11909.81,"end":11931.048,"text":"學徒保持的部分計畫那個水保的確是地方政府的權責那現在水保這個事情我們也有掌握到已經有點進展了就是他們走了一個行政協調那這行政協調已經有結論所以我們所知道的我們詢問台電呢台電目前"},{"start":11931.889,"end":11940.698,"text":"就是已經合一的水保改善計畫就是他已經送了送件他送了13次他都沒有就空在那邊讓新北市無案可審是那現在已經重新送件了第14次是"},{"start":11949.466,"end":11975.015,"text":"主席這個部分裡面因為我覺得這個部分要把它釐定清楚所以我們現在是不是可以你給我一個時間點到目前的進度是怎麼樣不要每一次我只是不希望每一次到選舉的時候就是永遠都是你剛剛說的是地方權責可是你的東西沒有送過來然後每次送也不做修正的話這個然後每次都說是新北沒有在處理這個問題我覺得這個東西是要做一些的釐清的他們做第10次案可不可以告訴我一些進度或是告訴我到什麼地方否則"},{"start":11977.49,"end":11985.018,"text":"4月16日,台電公司已經送水土保護計劃到新浦市有關中期暫時儲存場的場址請問你們現在的進度到底怎麼樣?"},{"start":11997.688,"end":12010.294,"text":"是的那現在選址啊這個都是選址的問題那現在選址的問題呢現在經濟部正在執行那根據廢物家園小組他的要求就是要趕快溝通趕快就是說來進行這個選址"},{"start":12014.116,"end":12032.197,"text":"那我們也管安全我們是建議就是說這個選址的程序要趕快在非核家園小組裡面討論這個也已經去函了已經都送達了這都好像只是在進行式我都看不到一個解答主席"},{"start":12033.38,"end":12055.13,"text":"可是如果沒有解凍沒有經費怎麼進行選址沒有啦 這個東西這已經長期停留下來的一個問題了啦我覺得還是要給我們一些什麼樣的一個回覆或比較確定的一個回覆我覺得這才是一個比較負責任的方法否則上次到現在都是在進行中進行中進行中因為選址確實是一個難題啦我知道啊 這個大家都很清楚"},{"start":12057.632,"end":12080.01,"text":"核安會編的預算都是執行安全審查跟檢查的預算那選擇這個行政作業呢然後水土的這個部分呢我剛剛是提出兩個問題喔好不好我也不會再為難我們這個核安會是不是你可以給我一個更確切把這個進程把這個部分給我一個稍微的一個報告好不好讓我才可以很清楚到底是如何"},{"start":12080.45,"end":12080.551,"text":"要多久給報告?"},{"start":12089.994,"end":12092.356,"text":"第三案有關於第五幕有關於環境輻射偵測預算編列3761萬9千元凍結20萬元這個案有沒有意見"},{"start":12118.663,"end":12119.947,"text":"好 柯子嫣召委"},{"start":12127.748,"end":12135.71,"text":"我只想問一下因為我覺得你這邊是有關於這個核安資訊的問題那你剛告訴我們都會在相關的平台上面來提供民眾做參考我可不可以知道是哪個平台啊我好像只有看到一個什麼海洋監測平台是不是海洋監測平台什麼平台這個大家都看不到耶而且你剛我上去看了一下什麼穿啊色134、137都不見得看得懂你看你那個平台上面的一個宣導"},{"start":12154.815,"end":12174.086,"text":"我覺得你們應該更平易近人、淺顯易懂而且最主要大家如果有疑問的話應該馬上可以找得到顯然這一塊目前為止我看不到比較好的一個成效或結果可不可以告訴我你們這都放在什麼相關的訊息都放在什麼平台我現在只找到一個海洋監測平台其他在哪裡那個跟委員報告那個召委海洋資訊、海洋擴散主委你那個麥克風有沒有開"},{"start":12185.674,"end":12212.66,"text":"這是一個海洋資訊、海洋擴散的平台我們在河岸一點通的APP就有在我們的官網也有所以你點進去可以看到所有的資訊是這樣子是吧我等一下要點眼看因為我剛剛是看到海洋監測的平台你們看到我覺得這個宣傳還有你們所寫的term你們的 terminology實在是有點太需要更淺顯易懂一點好不好只是小小的提出建議"},{"start":12214.728,"end":12218.95,"text":"第4案第4案是有關於第6幕核物料管制業務預算編列21129000元凍結20萬元這個案有沒有意見"},{"start":12234.298,"end":12234.478,"text":"楊瓊英委員陳主委"},{"start":12264.874,"end":12290.502,"text":"楊委員好我們討論過在日本政府110年4月份他宣告了福島這個核電廠的這個氚廢水的問題那112年開始排放那日本東京電力呢也在4月19號他再次啟動再次啟動排放入海的這個計畫那預計是要排放這個"},{"start":12293.782,"end":12316.688,"text":"7800噸的核廢水那持續到5月7號呢也就是從去年的8月份到現在它是第5次第5輪的排放那今年是首度那所以本席想要請問因為東電也曾經說它最快要到2051年才能夠排放完畢哇 這民眾一聽到就很緊張它現在連那個進口魚"},{"start":12320.189,"end":12346.58,"text":"進口商都受影響又沒有人敢買會不會有問題而且時間那麼長2021年到2051年所以對於他們排放的時間點我方有沒有掌控這樣的排放對於我方我們跟日本的交流都非常好你們有沒有怎麼樣討論保障我們人民的一個權益跟海洋的權益請說說明"},{"start":12348.294,"end":12363.879,"text":"好 謝謝楊委員非常好的問題也在這個機會跟委員稍微說明他是從去年112年8月24第一次排放那他是按照日本的財年是去年到今年的3月多"},{"start":12364.019,"end":12365.9,"text":"委員提到說我們跟日本有沒有什麼相關的掌握我們跟日本"},{"start":12385.131,"end":12410.716,"text":"那個NRA就是日本的原子力規制委員會就相當於我們的核安會那麼有合作協議合作備忘錄大概是2014開始那麼我們每年都有派人附訪那麼我們核安會也有在駐日的代表處有一位專責的人員負責核能、福安方面的知識"},{"start":12411.936,"end":12425.849,"text":"知訊所以換句話說有掌控有溝通管道完全有那主委本期要請教對於我們的遠洋漁業呢穿含量他的檢測我們是不是也有資訊的揭露"},{"start":12430.102,"end":12438.546,"text":"包含北太平洋公海、秋刀魚我們過去都有在做檢測所以本期要請教我們國內針對於生物栓檢測的實驗室你的量能夠不夠"},{"start":12446.056,"end":12454.9,"text":"量能最近提升去年9月27行政院給我們預備金有一個量能提升計畫4960萬檢測實驗室從國研院一家變成三家我們輻射偵測中心跟高雄的"},{"start":12463.004,"end":12469.427,"text":"所以是有在增加量能也代表以往的確我們也是不夠加進5000萬的經費來做精進那另外針對於碳14跟碾12的這個檢測我們的檢測能力夠嗎?"},{"start":12480.149,"end":12507.174,"text":"我們這個會有一個智慧監測站的計畫今年開始113年開始今年開始在我們輻射偵測中心每年900萬4年編4年今年會做先做碳14明年會做點129那麼這個技術上有一些難度但是呢它其實它的風險沒有那麼高因為我們呼應這個我們民眾跟立委的要求所以我們去建置這樣的能量"},{"start":12508.735,"end":12533.567,"text":"因為民眾會害怕那國際也都已經有這樣的量能所以我們預算也給也就是四年一年九百萬那我們也希望針對於碳14跟碳129的部分你們的建制要跟世界接軌然後我們自己有我們自己的量能這樣才不會被欺負啊要不然我們自己連監測都沒有人家說"},{"start":12534.628,"end":12551.456,"text":"人家隨便給你亂排這是我們非常緊張的一件事情所以我們為什麼要給這些預算你們辛苦趕快去建置把建置完成能夠保障 好嗎接下來本期最後一個議題請教你們核安會曾經要求說台電滾動式的去檢討處置技術的發展"},{"start":12554.477,"end":12567.477,"text":"那所以包括集中式的儲存設施當然你們沒有涉及到長子的一個選擇這一點是大家都一直在非常爭議的那所以呢本席要來請教"},{"start":12569.853,"end":12584.47,"text":"你們要如何順利的去推動低放射性的這個廢棄物的最終處置計畫因為每一次本席在經濟委員會他都告訴我我們還要考慮最終場址是怎麼樣但是實際上我們這邊還沒納入那這空談啊那是怎麼辦請做說明"},{"start":12589.212,"end":12607.682,"text":"那個低放廢棄物那個這個是一個應該要做的問題應該要做的問題那麼我們過去曾經在這個金門的烏丘跟台東的達人那麼有選了兩個可能的地點"},{"start":12608.783,"end":12630.352,"text":"那當然這是需要公民投票那麼也遇到一些困難所以延遲了到現在那麼這個其實也是牽扯到核廢料那麼他都會碰到一些民眾的抗爭立委的關說那這些問題所以我說你是空談嗎"},{"start":12631.499,"end":12660.046,"text":"你們在三年前爆出說非核家園推動小組三年前所以本席提出這個也就是說政府你不要空談你不要空談你一個議題到現在三年沒有成果有誰告訴我們民眾沒辦法沒辦法廠子沒有辦法決定有什麼技巧有什麼技術還是有什麼方案都沒有"},{"start":12662.39,"end":12685.019,"text":"這三年等於是零空轉所以本期之所以提出這個當然爭議很大但是我還是認為民眾靠的是政府政府應該是要有所作為你長子沒有辦法決定你的技術世界各國有什麼技術你們應該去撐就像剛剛探一二九一樣"},{"start":12686.286,"end":12706.422,"text":"世界各國都有了 如果我們還不建制 隨便給你亂排那怎麼可以呢 對不對所以你們喊了一個 民進黨政府喊了一個什麼非核家園那你現在全部都空談 全部都空談所以我本期不希望如此 而是務實的去做 好不好 加油好 謝謝楊委員謝謝 謝謝楊瓊英委員主委請回 我們接下來請張祺凱委員"},{"start":12730.572,"end":12734.154,"text":"我期待今天我們的對話因為今天看起來都是很專業的人士我們少一點點政治多一點專業好不好我先請教你最近看起來不管是要延續或者重啟這個核能美國、德國、日本都在做我先看第一張"},{"start":12758.84,"end":12784.199,"text":"注意你有注意到沒有最近年發生311福島核災的日本他都重啟全球最大的這個核電廠了然後看第二張來我們看一下美國拜登政府剛剛通過要提供15億的美元的貸款要重啟密西根州一座關閉以後的這個核電廠第三個我們再看一下"},{"start":12785.438,"end":12811.149,"text":"德國在烏俄戰爭之後他做了一個非常非常重要的決定剛剛那兩個都是停了以後重新開啟對不對現在德國是直接烏俄戰爭之後把原定要處理的三座核電廠基礎全部都研議了那我請教諸位若站在安全的這個立場你覺得台灣現在需要的電量這麼大德國能、日本能、美國能台灣現在"},{"start":12815.222,"end":12841.347,"text":"能不能重啟我們的核二或者是嚴厲我們的核三這個是很大的問題啦就是大家社會很關切的問題那麼我們大概都知道我們台灣面臨了這個兩極的聲音就是這麼多年來那麼如果很好解決就我們今天不用在這個地方討論嘛所以你是專家所以我要一開始說我當然知道這是政敵的事件嘛"},{"start":12844.028,"end":12864.363,"text":"像老實講,要不要延逸或者是重啟,基本上都是一線之間啦,對不對?注意,你應該有注意到,你對這個美國智庫的專家這個約頓·馬吉利斯應該很熟悉,對不對?他在昨天他直接,美國智庫這個專家,說明應該叫核能的,他在這裡說啊,他講到第一個,台灣承受不起切電,因為我們現在要發展半導體嘛。"},{"start":12866.36,"end":12891.852,"text":"你看台積電那個每個擴廠每蓋一個新的要多少要多少的這個電他講一個非常非常關鍵的賴清德就是我們總統當選人一定要趁機趕快調整廢核的這個政策然後講是一念之間所以我今天會請教如果從專業的這個角度我意思是說不管是核三廠的延續或者核二廠的重啟你們安全上可以提供很專業可以確保安全嗎"},{"start":12893.444,"end":12919.698,"text":"那個安全的部分是要去努力的那麼它不是可以完全的保證我委員沒有這個不是在變的意思那麼人為疏失那麼天災、地震那麼它總是有風險那這個其實也就是另外一個聲音的"},{"start":12920.418,"end":12921.578,"text":"所以其實現在經濟是我們發展這個命脈"},{"start":12944.784,"end":12973.19,"text":"我本身也在經濟委所以我今天特別來問你這個事情我剛才特別說了半導體這個發展太重要了包括台積電都要到我們嘉義去了用水這個用電我都非常非常的注意那目前我發現一線之間就是說民進黨政府到底要不要做我認為這樣啦如果民進黨之後後來想要核酸要研議了我相信各個部門很快就可以動了那如果沒有的話現在在野黨都在努力現在很多立委都已經提了案子我直接請教你了"},{"start":12973.936,"end":12992.465,"text":"包括已經有人提說讓核三廠可以直接延長對不對那他講的就是把條文裡面他研議的那個時間往後拉可是我看到條文裡面又碰到一個問題你差不多進警五年前要提出來對不對那目前這個修法有辦法去解決剛講要五年前提出來這個問題嗎"},{"start":12994.545,"end":13005.263,"text":"修法是一件事但是直到到期核三廠一號機是7月27我們去盤整了所有國外的案例"},{"start":13006.573,"end":13025.175,"text":"沒有說他還沒有核發執照就可以繼續研議這個是我們目前在國際上的所有的案例的去觀察那個可不可以追一下那個德國的事我們去稍微了解一下"},{"start":13026.196,"end":13054.481,"text":"如果德國能的話我相信台灣也能啦當然這個安全一定是第一啦我們不會在安全沒有保障之下去推這個什麼嚴厲跟不可能一定要尊重你們專家的意見可是德國這個去參考一下另外還有一個問題我找到一個解套的方式是我們民國90百年曾經進行核儀廠這個嚴厲的程序嘛因為他們是放在三一福島這個世界嘛對不對那現在如果要重新啟動是不是98年這個模式可以比照辦理"},{"start":13056.092,"end":13064.083,"text":"你是說委員是說我們在民國98年有做核一廠的那個研議的準備嘛對不對委員是說核一廠嗎對對對那種核一廠那還是不是喔 現在不是說核一廠要"},{"start":13065.848,"end":13093.593,"text":"那時候民國九十八年是核一廠研議嘛對不對我說這個整個程序可以比例如說核三廠現在決定要研議的話可以比照核一廠那時候的狀況來做嗎核一廠那時候的狀態是在五年前那現在是在五年以內核三廠剩下就是幾個月而已對 所以情況是不一樣的所以沒辦法比照還是卡到那五年就對了對對對啊所以現在看到地位說政府說不會塞所以我們各個部會就動起來要不然的話那個五年就卡死了是不是這樣"},{"start":13094.673,"end":13101.024,"text":"那包括目前各黨現在提任的修法這五年事情都解不開嗎?是不是都解不開?"},{"start":13102.554,"end":13124.653,"text":"修法是比較大的議題牽扯到很多層面我剛才跟不同的委員做一些報告除了我們的核關法之外牽扯到很多的執法交錯的連在一起具體來講要非常完備其實需要很整密的思考跟做下來看這是法律問題"},{"start":13126.96,"end":13152.725,"text":"法律問題也牽扯到很多專業嘛我剛才看你剛才在裡面在問你的事你也認為說核電是一個減碳的能源嘛尤其現在對我們台灣的發電來說電是需要更多的電的所以最後一個問題我請教請教請教諸位所以如果真的要研議核三的一號機或者二號機或者是這個核二廠要重新的話"},{"start":13153.939,"end":13158.47,"text":"到底有什麼辦法?除了卡了那五年之外有什麼辦法?修法"},{"start":13159.642,"end":13187.193,"text":"修法是最重要的啦那當然還有一些技術上的問題不好意思修法怎麼修技術上怎麼樣因為你要提供意見我現在只問你專業你認為不是不合專業的有碰到政治的你不要回答我就是完全去除到政治的你現在有兩種可能會被問到同樣有問的問題有可能執政黨的政府例如說總統最近就出去了他如果說真的要做研議或者廚藝他就問你了對不對"},{"start":13188.553,"end":13203.136,"text":"那也有可能在野黨要請教你這個問題你太敏感你不用回答我問的是專業的問題先跟委員報告那個 能源政策是經濟部啦所以他不會 不會問我啦那麼我們其實是核能安全的管理機關對對對對對所以這個先跟委員做個說明"},{"start":13211.258,"end":13232.174,"text":"抱歉你還是沒有回答我的問題啊你說總統不問你是吧那如果說民間的力量不是只有在野黨喔現在很多你看經濟部長新上去就說要解決缺電的問題嘛所以核能可能都是其中一個考慮企業界都已經提說希望核能這個問題可以解決嘛現在到底除了修法我剛問你你已經講五年這個卡住啦那到底有沒有什麼方式可以解套"},{"start":13232.974,"end":13242.222,"text":"張委員不好意思因為時間是不是事後我們把書面報告或者事後再跟張委員打過好不好?"},{"start":13247.569,"end":13250.69,"text":"張淇凱委員林楚瑛委員邱志偉委員蔡奕瑜委員鄭振乾、何新淳、范雲委員"},{"start":13275.93,"end":13275.99,"text":"陳主委"},{"start":13285.94,"end":13304.01,"text":"范委員主委午安今天好幾位國民黨委員都問到那個研議的問題我想我之前其實問過您想再請您解答因為您一直說尊重大院對請問一下那個核廢料的安全是不是也是你們有相關的監管責任是的對那蘭嶼的這個遷出據說到底找到放置的地點了沒有"},{"start":13311.038,"end":13322.172,"text":"沒有沒有那都沒有的話然後剛剛講新北的這個問題都沒解決那這個核廢料的這個安全就是說研議的話代價是誰付啊要蘭嶼人繼續承擔嗎都找不到可以放置的地方"},{"start":13331.462,"end":13342.651,"text":"主委 你要有道德勇氣該說清楚的問題機會誰承擔要講清楚好不好不能讓一直讓我們原住民就是藍綠人承擔吧這樣有正義嗎主委這樣有正義嗎 有還是沒有沒有 那為什麼沒有辦法簽署"},{"start":13353.595,"end":13374.952,"text":"沒有人願意放嘛所以我們是繼續在傷害蘭嶼人傷害原住民好不好據說這個部分請主委不過那個范委員我們現在對蘭嶼地方儲存庫有做很嚴密的 我知道你們做了研議了可是有答應蘭嶼人這件事情沒有錯吧答應是什麼時候之前要簽署"},{"start":13377.941,"end":13381.403,"text":"我今天也在追問你曾經問過的題目第一個 有人跟我陳情"},{"start":13400.357,"end":13420.232,"text":"你們曾經放過這三個量子力學三巨頭在你們的臉書上應該知道吧?主委認得嗎?用邊薛丁格很有名嘛薛丁格的故事大家都知道主委知道左邊那三位女性是誰嗎?"},{"start":13423.804,"end":13439.338,"text":"是居里夫人這三位的中間中間是居里夫人嗎?你把中間居里夫人會跟他們三個人站在一起這有沒有弄錯好來我請那個我們中規組組長就您不知道嘛"},{"start":13441.526,"end":13462.523,"text":"跟委員報告那是那三個科學家的太太跟媽媽所以不是居里夫人如果是居里夫人那我就要高興了我要講的事情是誇張的是你們的臉書小編放過這張圖當時呢完全沒有解釋左邊三位是誰連是人家的就是說夫人什麼家屬都沒有講"},{"start":13463.504,"end":13492.784,"text":"可是你們居然在跟你們的原能會的性評小組的報告裡面把這張圖跟小編臉書說成說這張圖是在傳達性別對科學發展之影響力無論是科學家本人或是科學家背後之女性支持者均同等重要意思就是說科學家三個是男的然後他們的老婆是女的這個圖叫做傳達性別對科學發展之影響力"},{"start":13494.781,"end":13516.204,"text":"所以你們的科學家沒有女的都是男的所以女性的影響力就是當他們的老婆跟背後的女性支持者是這樣嗎?這是你們的性別平等的報告欸不是 這跟委員報告一下如果委員從網路上看這張照片的話大部分的照片都把三位女性全部Cut掉"},{"start":13516.824,"end":13536.356,"text":"所以你們放進去已經對女性很好了主委還以為上面是居里夫人呢因為我們要注重性品所以這些後面相關的人物你要放喔比切掉這當然是有加分啦可是把這張的而且你們你們的小編完全沒有說這旁邊三個是誰放了卻不說人家是誰"},{"start":13537.717,"end":13566.599,"text":"但是更誇張的是當你們性別小組我們行政院主流化各部會都有性別小組就是說你們給人家的報告是要講科學家跟性別的時候拿這張圖然後告訴大家性別平等就是科學家本人還沒講男性科學家背後是女性支持者就是說是用這個來講性別跟科技你們都找不到任何一個女性科學家來告訴大家性別跟科學發展"},{"start":13568.135,"end":13594.338,"text":"這個部分我們會來再這是你們的會議記錄我剛唸的東西都是你們會議記錄你們性別小組的會議記錄就是有委員王平詢問這件事然後你們的人家已經問了你還可以答成這樣然後還在這個報告裡就這樣所以呢為什麼要關心你們你看時間沒有了都沒有時間問了因為原能會之前出過很有名的性騷案新主委知道嗎"},{"start":13598.044,"end":13617.979,"text":"內部細節不是很清楚你可以再去了解一下我們在這邊林議員都有看到我跟林議員還要求行政院要報告因為你們的性騷擾的相關規定沒有處理足為本人如果是性別歧視或者是性騷擾的行為人的話怎麼處理所以你們整個園農會性別意識可能真的有待加強"},{"start":13621.842,"end":13642.995,"text":"現在呢我之前預算都有請你們加強性騷擾防治我現在發現你們不是只有性騷擾防治性別平等意識從你們的性平小組你們給出的報告人家已經專業委員問了還不知道哪裡的問題真的非常的值得加強針對如何加強你們內部的性別平等意識可不可以一個月給我一個檢討報告"},{"start":13644.036,"end":13646.357,"text":"一級主管女性遠低於女性成員比核安會女性主管21%國園會女性主管20%員工33%女性1%"},{"start":13670.191,"end":13699.2,"text":"然後呢更誇張的事情你們的一級主管人家別的被行政院性評處管考的都是生喔你們的一級主管人數一年降下來就是75%降到38%降到21%你們的母數是19個主管欸可以越降越少欸為什麼呢好不容易做到女性一級主管的她們為什麼的百分比是越降越低低於她現在的"},{"start":13700.188,"end":13727.884,"text":"母數的比例啊主委你有沒有發現這件事情有有有有那個我跟委員報告那個我們最近其實還有一個副組長就是副處長的層級那麼其實他就是女性那麼我不曉得有沒有算在這裡面那麼其實我們在升等的時候其實有很嚴謹的這個制度啦因為我們最近剛搬過升等"},{"start":13728.644,"end":13748.111,"text":"那麼我們會將來會來注意來注意喔那您知不知道行政院性別平等處在管考政府所有的委員會那有75%的委員會都達標了而且那個是高標40%喔那我們的核安會沒有達標你知道嗎"},{"start":13749.833,"end":13760.789,"text":"清楚我知道這個是大概我們會繼續來努力的會繼續來努力至少就一起主管那如果你有聽過西點原則你有沒有聽過"},{"start":13764.636,"end":13764.676,"text":"西點原則"},{"start":13794.616,"end":13794.876,"text":"第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆"},{"start":13824.713,"end":13838.82,"text":"當然我是祝福您續任好不好那這個可不可以給我辦公室一個報告因為呢我去年在修應該是去年嗎核安會的組織法的時候你們的前劉副主委他還在嗎"},{"start":13840.662,"end":13860.963,"text":"他退休了我當時說組織法要放三分之一性別比的時候他告訴我說行政院的目標對他們的要求是40%所以我們以40%為目標所以不需要定在那裡叫我支持所以呢顯然就是說你們是應付委員嘛講一講之後都沒有任何的做法是不是"},{"start":13862.13,"end":13885.591,"text":"我不清楚劉副主委說的那為了避免你們應付委員給我一個報告讓我可以繼續追蹤好嗎那這多久內可以給我一個報告這個如何逐步提升女性主管的比例因為我們如果要有女主委也要有歷練的過程嘛對不對好我們一個月好謝謝那個主委"},{"start":13892.358,"end":13892.698,"text":"主席"},{"start":13912.061,"end":13926.068,"text":"請問主委您身為全國核能業務的最高主管機關總管國內的核電廠、核安設施的安全您認為核能安全問題是不是可以透過管理的手段來控制風險呢?"},{"start":13928.272,"end":13950.471,"text":"一定程度一定程度所以你是覺得你是沒有辦法去控制這個風險的就在管理的這個方面他有一些的風險天災我問你是管理嗎如果你排除那當然是的是不是是不是可以透過管理的手段來控制呢"},{"start":13951.912,"end":13972.281,"text":"就是排除了天災人就是不能有人禍的意思人禍你有把握你能夠管理得當嗎是的 我們會在制度面上去完成那你認同核能是低碳能源是綠電嗎它是低碳能源綠電有不同的定義"},{"start":13973.724,"end":13989.233,"text":"同時核能的一大功能是發電就你的專業知識你認為核能的發電成本比之於目前國內主要的燃氣發電成本是高還是低?"},{"start":13990.294,"end":14008.661,"text":"是低但是它有不同的效應核廢料的問題社會成本的問題所以您知道現在每一度核能電發電的成本是多少嗎大概是一塊多吧1.1那燃氣每一度電是多少你知道嗎"},{"start":14012.807,"end":14036.156,"text":"5塊多是再生能源 燃氣大概是3.19所以呢其實核能每一度電是燃氣發電的三分之一的價格然後是再生能源的五分之一的價格然而現在台灣的能源政策卻已經是政治凌駕於專業指引我們能源政策的"},{"start":14036.716,"end":14050.407,"text":"竟然是民進黨的非核檔綱而不是專業判斷基於此請問核安會主委您贊不贊同台灣應該重新檢討核能發電的政策呢?那個 呃 能源的政策主管機關是經濟部我當然知道我早上已經問過經濟部長我現在是問你啊你建不建議說我們應該重新檢討核能發電的政策呢?"},{"start":14066.933,"end":14078.682,"text":"這個沒有簡單的答案所以我現在讓你回答呀對 這個不是yes or no那你願不願意本與你的專業建議執政的應該重新檢討飛橫政策呢這個應該不是我的權責啦我沒辦法建議那對於今年7月即將退役的核三廠主委你認為是否有可能研議"},{"start":14092.194,"end":14106.743,"text":"現在是7月27日執照屆滿按照目前大概就是到那個時候會停機所以就是他會如其演繹的意思你們目前沒有任何的規劃時間到會停止運轉"},{"start":14112.13,"end":14122.74,"text":"所以對於我們現在的核電廠設備不管是核三廠或者是核四廠、核二廠你有沒有信心就是他們其實運作起來都是安全的"},{"start":14123.755,"end":14149.966,"text":"每一個廠有不同的情況那個核三廠是現在在運轉所以它是運轉是安全的它的目前的運轉是安全的你覺得它有能力可以研議嗎對 但是它也牽扯到法規的問題所以你是認同它是有研議的能力它還有法規的問題是 就是除了法規之外我請教您的專業就您的專業核三廠研議是不是有能力"},{"start":14151.257,"end":14152.579,"text":"錯誤的政策比貪污更可怕"},{"start":14166.237,"end":14172.664,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算 ﹐解凍案二、審查113年度中央政府總預算 ﹐解凍案二、審查113年度中央政府總預算 ﹐解凍案二、審查113年度中央政府總預算 ﹐解凍案二、審查113年度中央政府總預算 ﹐解凍案二、審查113年度"},{"start":14189.861,"end":14193.507,"text":"〈台灣的騙子需要重新檢討反核政策〉〈台灣需要重新檢討反核政策〉"},{"start":14206.205,"end":14225.979,"text":"亞中人均耗電最高的地區但台灣的電力供應並沒有跟上腳步那民進黨極力推動的非核家園導致我們核電從2011年42百萬瓦降到2022年的24百萬瓦這一些您是贊成的嗎我問你啊 你贊成嗎 你贊成非核家園嗎"},{"start":14235.498,"end":14243.064,"text":"核安會是獨立的安全的管制機關所以不適合用核或反核來做表態"},{"start":14246.065,"end":14264.121,"text":"當然最近昨天合作的董事長童子賢他同時也是民進黨新境界文教基金會的副董事長那董事長就是賴清德他近日發表演講的時候提到缺電他說他反核30年但是思想改變了他覺得"},{"start":14265.262,"end":14285.569,"text":"全球暖化才是公敵核能不是所以他也改變了30年來的反核立場一個反核30年的人想法都會改變那國際上的潮流也興起重啟核能那最重要的是核能安全是可以透過管理來降低風險的現今上發生過"},{"start":14288.37,"end":14290.811,"text":"而這個電廠核災的幾乎都是管理問題導致諸位和安會就像你剛剛講的是一個獨立機構理應有專業的判斷專業的良心不然受到太多政治的影響這樣子的話政治凌駕於專業對於我們國家發展是絕對不利的"},{"start":14309.842,"end":14321.569,"text":"請用專業的良心在院會上建議民進黨、執政黨修正錯誤的能源政策,不應再以非核黨綱綁架台灣的能源政策。"},{"start":14334.298,"end":14362.475,"text":"好 那今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢另外有吳春城委員提出書面質詢關於今天的會議作為無下決議報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢及相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答覆的部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆"},{"start":14364.434,"end":14385.408,"text":"報告委員會 今天議程處理完畢 現在休息謝謝各位沒有講 沒講就沒講了 反正謝謝 謝謝而且我們爭美 我在台南沼川 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2077.399,"end":2094.012,"text":"依照司法院近三年各地方法院刑事第一審違反本法案件被告的裁判結果家庭暴力罪每年平均大概是3825人違反保護令罪每年平均大概是2114人"},{"start":2097.089,"end":2107.461,"text":"另外一,法務部近三年的統計,犯家庭暴力罪每年平均約3027人,其中申請羈押者平均219人,佔7.2%。裁定羈押者平均186人,佔6.2%。"},{"start":2116.791,"end":2125.093,"text":"違反保護令罪者每年平均2595人,其中申請羈押者平均163人佔6.3%,裁定羈押者平均121人佔4.7%,顯示部分案件能透過羈押有效遏止嚴重暴力行為"},{"start":2139.836,"end":2168.51,"text":"在提升社會大眾防暴意識的層面本部除了持續督促各直轄市縣市政府結合在地組織推動預防宣導的教育並辦理社區防暴人才的培力以及發展防暴社區認證制度希望能夠促進社區防暴工作的永續發展"},{"start":2171.907,"end":2186.427,"text":"二、有關於非法網站創意私房的案件,提出兒少性影響防治具體作為檢討報告,並就兒少性剝削條例的修正方向來作報告。"},{"start":2187.428,"end":2216.428,"text":"有關創意私房案件已經引起各界質疑持有而少性向罪行者過低,先日接取行政處分及流程未能簡化的各種疑慮。」所以本部約於113年4月19日邀請司法院、法務部、內政部警政署、數位發展部、國家通訊傳播委員會以及金融監督管理委員會召開本條例修法的方向會議"},{"start":2217.628,"end":2233.118,"text":"就擴大兒少性剝削的行為太陽、增訂、重製兒少性影像罪、沒有正當理由支付對價而持有兒童或少年的性影像罪"},{"start":2234.159,"end":2246.545,"text":"支付、兌價、關賞兒童或少年性癮向罪行提高持有兒少性癮向罪、支付、兌價、關賞兒少性交猥褻行為罪的刑責"},{"start":2250.203,"end":2279.102,"text":"另外,還有增訂兒少性影像電子行政處分及下架實現、簡化通知及採取行政流程。增訂中央主管機關於必要時採限日接取的方式,遏止兒少性影像散播,以及增訂相關機關運用網路科技技術主動查查兒少性影像案件的方向來做研擬。"},{"start":2280.188,"end":2280.453,"text":"之役"},{"start":2281.794,"end":2310.256,"text":"為有效防止家庭暴力行為以及防止兒少遭性剝削、遏止兒少性影像散播等犯罪。本部秉持零容忍的態度,未來更需透過部會網絡合作的建構防護網。本部曾答應各委員指教及監督在此近日卸陳,並請各委員繼續予以支持。"},{"start":2317.877,"end":2338.662,"text":"有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘練習委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息10分鐘原則上11點30分處理臨時提案"},{"start":2343.445,"end":2356.023,"text":"10點30分截止收案。」那現在請第一位登記的委員陳昭之委員發言。謝謝主席。有請薛部長。請薛部長。"},{"start":2361.504,"end":2387.821,"text":"衛生福利部長,我把衛福部上個月的報告書跟檢察官的起訴書做了比對,那這個灰色的部分是衛福部報告書,紅色底的部分是檢察官的起訴書,那起訴書寫得非常的清楚,從9月1號到12月23號,將近4個月的時間,劉姓保姆和他的姊妹接連對卡開實行了很多的這個,做了很多額虐的行為,7月7號開始用指甲刮"},{"start":2389.282,"end":2408.8,"text":"凱凱的右頸部,在住家中捆綁凱凱,甚至把右腳踩入水桶,罰他裸體躺地上,用腳踹他、毆打他等等,導致凱凱脖子有撕裂傷,全身多處新舊不同程度的頓挫、擦傷痕,大血管塌陷,兩側額頂淤青,陰囊裂傷。」"},{"start":2413.044,"end":2423.654,"text":"多處遺傷皮下組織出血壞死以及血液裡面組織是淤積的身體甚至因為長期的捆綁導致四肢變形不對稱"},{"start":2426.926,"end":2448.959,"text":"但是在兒扶社公司的報告中,僅簡略地記載了這個額頭淤青還有孩子比較安靜,那就連孩子掉了四顆牙他這個保姆變成是磨牙脫落的荒唐理由,社公司照單全收了那12月5號社工的約訪不成之後,保姆後續都用LINE跟電話來聯繫"},{"start":2452.02,"end":2457.042,"text":"回報社工沒有察覺異狀我覺得這都是因為所謂的保姆過去和兒童出養合作的經驗良好的信任但是其實衛福部早就有規定這種訪視是要用不約訪的方式就是不約訪的方式但是社工保姆在這次是多採約訪的方式所以他可能因此沒有辦法查到真相"},{"start":2477.268,"end":2503.96,"text":"那沒有人否認第一線的社工的非常的辛苦但是我還是想問為何社工的訪視卻沒有對孩子身上產生這個瘀青等等有所警覺那我必須指出這個透過長期合作培養出來的所謂的信任感其實他是要接受這個外部機制的挑戰因為這種信任感到底是對孩子有利還是有害部長請問您覺得這個是個案還是系統性的問題"},{"start":2509.595,"end":2524.545,"text":"這案子當然是一個個案,因為那麼沒有人性的人應該不會是同案的。但是剛剛委員所提到的這個所謂的這個互相信任,社工跟"},{"start":2526.066,"end":2553.685,"text":"事實上以這個案子來看的話也不到那種程度因為這一個流行保姆他有前後有收了三個小孩子的這個托育那其中一個是自費的那不是全日的稍後我也提到說保姆是因為保姆到底都是初次還是新手第一個也只不過我記得他兩三個月他就出養了所以事實上並沒有所謂的長期合作的關係"},{"start":2554.926,"end":2559.232,"text":"這信任感是沒有什麼理由的信任感這個之前質詢我有提到監察委員王美玉的報告那時候我有提到說其實這個裡面的內容報告很值得衛福部做參考"},{"start":2570.106,"end":2589.684,"text":"那這個報告中有指出2019到2011月額略事件失略者從當中可以看到看第一個保姆就是有關兒保安置保姆都列在其中那很遺憾的近年近期來這個保姆失略的這個案件層出不窮前幾天高雄五月大的男嬰頭部多處骨折"},{"start":2590.746,"end":2607.645,"text":"以及內商疑似保姆失孽,目前羈押中。2023年4月,基隆3歲孩子橫踩腹部長期施暴,最後肝臟破裂死亡。2022年底,台中1歲清水的小女嬰小桃子遭到保姆失孽,如累出血,併發缺氧性腦病變而身亡。"},{"start":2610.288,"end":2628.262,"text":"那涉案的許多保姆大多不是新手,都是已經照顧過很多孩子的保姆,所以我想提醒部長,保姆施暴是需要衛福部花更多的心力去了解,因為每個孩子都是寶貝,政府是不是應該更積極介入有一些機制淘汰不適任的保姆"},{"start":2630.1,"end":2649.678,"text":"那聯合國有一個兒童權利公寓一直都呼籲孩子最需要的就是回歸到家庭或社區所以家外安置的優先次序是以親屬為優先其次是寄養家庭然後才是機構並且盡可能讓這個機構是小規模化部長你認為這個跟我們現況一致嗎"},{"start":2652.559,"end":2679.839,"text":"事實上也差不多啦以目前來講的話當然就是說機構還有企業家庭部長覺得差不多部長對方向上面差不多我們的兒少全法實行系的第10條也有相關規定這個家外安置的數據第一個就是適當的親屬順位二就是與兒少有長期正向穩定依附關係的這個第三人等那部長請問您知道您覺得方向一致你知道我們親屬安置的比率嗎"},{"start":2681.574,"end":2697.011,"text":"親屬安置的比例應該不是很高我讓部長知道安置在機構的孩子現在是六成百分之六十親屬安置只有百分之三而且安置在機構的小孩有一成多是六歲以下"},{"start":2698.092,"end":2726.523,"text":"所以我想不論是基於情理或法律規定甚至是國際這個兒童權利公約凱凱本來是應該在他所謂的長期正向穩定依附的關係的這位保母中讓他繼續待在那裡都是最好的方式何況這位保母也表示願意出養但是凱凱被永久的剝奪了這樣的一個機會我是報告部長部長請特別看一下這個序號21號我把它框起來你讀到這些"},{"start":2727.703,"end":2741.875,"text":"文字的時候真的令人心痛憤慨這個孩子的家庭他經過16次兒少保護通報脆弱家庭自殺防治有毒品前科還有酒駕等等通報我們的社會安全網根本沒有接觸他"},{"start":2742.97,"end":2768.549,"text":"有想過要接觸他嗎?還是我敢呢?我不知道這個孩子後續如何我很不敢再想下去也不願意想因為我不知道他會不會成為另外一個事實上已經離開人世的一個孩子那根據臺大這個劉淑彤教授研究從2011年這個這一張對到2016年有68件重大的惡孽事件其中四分之一的孩子過往有受暴食"},{"start":2769.946,"end":2790.616,"text":"在2019到2020年4月期間有43件重大額虐事件,其中5件不曾被通報,但是有38件雖然有進入政府相關的服務系統或利用了所謂福利資源,甚至多次被通報,但防務網終究沒有接觸他們,反而發生虐死或重大傷害的悲劇。」"},{"start":2792.237,"end":2812.657,"text":"所以部長我想說的是這兩個狀況必須趕快處理第一個就是通報的黑書第二個是通報後沒有及時的有效處理或追蹤有時候社工在家訪中因為他們可能誤評就是沒有正確的去評估所以沒有開案所以這兩個狀況是不是應該可以立刻進行檢討部長您同意嗎"},{"start":2813.097,"end":2837.939,"text":"這我同意謝謝部長衛福部需要努力填補的漏洞還蠻多的許多專家學者都有指出國健署的六歲以下兒童死因回溯分析這個報告是非常好但是它沒有涵蓋所有死因的小孩缺乏針對兒、少、虐待事件的分析部分比較偏重公衛嘛因為是公衛角度去做當然公衛角度切度很好因為是從預防的角度去看"},{"start":2838.9,"end":2843.727,"text":"那我想跟部長分享實務上會出現幾個狀況就是國健署有委託幾個縣市在做實驗計畫請各縣市提供個案並由各局處來做這個討論但是因為局處不會直接瞭解這個小孩子的情況所以能夠討論的成效其實是有限的"},{"start":2854.964,"end":2874.364,"text":"二、有專家反映中央兒少權益小組討論時,能夠死因回溯報告中與兒虐的部分相對比較少。第三、優某縣市提出討論其中報告中有時候根本就沒有兒虐的部分,都是意外事件,所以讓參與者沒有機會就兒虐的部分來做"},{"start":2874.904,"end":2888.458,"text":"討論。」他的原因是額內的部分因為有另外的系統。有另外的系統。對。那部長我們看一下那個F專家,右邊下角這個F專家講的就是說要做一個額內案件的死亡根本原因分析,要花一個醫師跟一個專家30個小時的時間。"},{"start":2891.721,"end":2920.002,"text":"所以因此做死亡這個根本原因分析其實要耗費很多資源那我也希望說衛福部跟國健署有這個認知就是說其實有時候資源要盤點然後做改善計畫那劉教授的研究報告另外研究報告也提到說可能因為害怕中央中央究責所以事實上地方呈報中央的這個報告當中有很多失真或不完整在這個過程當中可能長官都幾度修改所以部長與事實可能不符的這個檢討報告"},{"start":2921.423,"end":2937.272,"text":"有意義嗎?」這個就是請你瞭解有這個狀況,因為這個報告中都有指出那2020年南投縣一名4歲女童童童她遭遇母親男友虐殺致死那那個案件其實有很多的漏洞,包括社工物品一個另外一個漏洞就是轉診室醫師未輪期時發現這小朋友是有腦部傷勢的"},{"start":2940.134,"end":2960.519,"text":"那當時衛福部的解釋是說因為沒有照會該醫院比較熟悉兒少議題的這個醫師啦真的很遺憾那我知道衛福部已經啟動了這個幼兒專責醫師制度不過我們上去看目前還是沒有空空的目前還沒有報相關報告那這個報告這個制度是不是能夠讓這個接觸額內案件的醫師們能夠熟悉兒少這個保護的議題是不是後續的成效醫師的涵蓋率也能夠請衛福部多努力的發報"},{"start":2969.801,"end":2991.278,"text":"而那個幼兒專責醫師的制度,即使只是另外提供一個篩選的一個制度,讓這一個如果出現額內的,多一道可以來早期把它發現的一個機制。謝謝部長,謝謝主席。好,謝謝。謝謝陳昭之委員。接下來請林月琴委員發言。"},{"start":3001.988,"end":3004.031,"text":"有請我們的部長,請薛部長。"},{"start":3012.608,"end":3038.196,"text":"部長早當然今天事實上是講家暴可是我覺得更為關心的是因為我們從一百年那時候有感受到少子化之後開始有一些的所謂的公共的托嬰中心甚至比較鼓勵保母來帶孩子那後來又推准工所以孩子越來越多事實上是進入到家外"},{"start":3038.803,"end":3045.736,"text":"那家外我覺得事實上是政府責無旁貸家內當然我覺得還有很多要努力的下一頁"},{"start":3050.082,"end":3069.069,"text":"所以目前這樣看起來我想剛才我們的那個趙志偉委員也在提就是我們不斷不斷的有一兩起的這樣的發生有時候就是死亡不管是拖延中心或者是保母就承諾我講的我們孩子已經生得很少去年生到13萬5那一個都不能少的狀態裡邊"},{"start":3070.289,"end":3097.926,"text":"甚至只要更好。」如果一旦被暴力對待的話怎麼去回復他搞不好身心都是沒有辦法回復的所以我們的托嬰中心事實上和保姆數量是在成長當中因為這是政府的托嬰政策在鼓勵所以托嬰中心5年內成長了1.5倍那保姆也是往上揚的可是我們的施虐者事實上是保姆跟教師也成長了2.3倍也就是說"},{"start":3098.874,"end":3126.945,"text":"托嬰中心成長1.5倍,可是肆虐者事實上成長2到3倍。」這也是我想很多父母為之憂心的地方那在這邊也要提醒就是說我們還是分不出來這個保姆講的事實上是居家的保姆還是托嬰中心的因為他們都統稱托育人員可是你現在分的叫保姆一個叫教師這教師講的是托育人員因為托嬰中心稱的是托育人員所以不太照還是幼兒園的老師"},{"start":3127.665,"end":3155.098,"text":"所以是不是可以未來數據分流因為常常講說數據才能夠掌握問題如果數據不清楚的話就沒有辦法掌握問題下一頁那我們就來看保姆你怎麼從前面去管控一個失知的訓練裡邊126小時這樣的一個考照完全沒有額略的一個相關課程放在額哨權法裡邊反而事實上沒有辦法去對焦"},{"start":3156.398,"end":3175.407,"text":"在職訓練的九大類裡邊也是有相同的問題而且上這些課程的人事實上有沒有醫護背景可是從你們的辦法裡邊就知道他只要是在也就是說他在擔任訪視員擔任三年他基本上就可以來擔任課程的老師"},{"start":3176.207,"end":3203.688,"text":"那他的背景經驗到底是什麼?所以有沒有針對於特別額略評估的課程需有醫護背景,或者是他有兒少保經驗的講師,而不是誰都可以上,沒有經過一個評估,這樣的老師都可以上課,因為你只有一個實務經驗三年就可以,他實務經驗是在做居家保姆的訪視工作,而且現在居家保姆的訪視員基本上沒有要求社工,沒有要求一些相關科系,所以呢大家"},{"start":3204.229,"end":3226.772,"text":"大學畢業就可以進去。」那我們就有擔心說那這樣子會不會有一些問題下一頁那剛剛講的是保姆接下來我們就講訪視員訪視員的訓練也是這樣到底訪視員都上這些課程嗎?如果你已經弄出來是額內的評估的一些相關資能的話有課程的實施計畫都上嗎?就我知道"},{"start":3228.311,"end":3256.526,"text":"政府部門事實上上半年度辦一場下半年度辦一場要滿足全國的訪視員是沒辦法地方不辦去年開始丟來地方辦地方結果他說他沒有財力辦最後也是中央辦中央辦全台灣有這麼多的訪視輔導員有沒有確保每天進門就要去看保護的孩子可是他沒有能力的話你怎麼可能去確保說他評估診斷是OK的還有我更為關鍵的失智背景到底是誰"},{"start":3258.363,"end":3276.518,"text":"還有呢?課程內容誰規劃的?為什麼這樣提?因為在講居家安全的時候竟然有人老師是上命理我就不知道說今天流年很好就不會發生居家安全事情嗎?那就是課程的目標跟內容事實上是不太一樣的甚至當時標的物也是不太一樣的還有額略樣態有沒有統一?因為"},{"start":3279.981,"end":3308.315,"text":"始終我覺得政府已經很久了已經有做兒女的那為什麼每次到家外的時候我們在認定委員會要認定說這小孩子有沒有被虐待的時候常常沒辦法去做這個之前我們也跟保護師有提過就是說你有這麼多年的經驗為什麼不可以把兒女的一些不當對待樣態找出來而來讓各縣市政府可以有依據常常各縣市政府行文給我們的保護師這邊就說那你們自己裁處你們自己決定可是如果地方政府"},{"start":3309.013,"end":3329.833,"text":"如果事實上沒有這樣的能力的話,那怎麼去做這樣的一個採訪,最後還是影響到孩子的權益,下一頁所以整個課程應該去制定一些,如果我覺得衛福部本來就有兒科醫學會做的這樣的一個版本,我不知道為什麼都沒有去用,這也是我覺得很疑惑的地方"},{"start":3330.92,"end":3358.672,"text":"再加上防治真的蠻重要的,我們看到額蒙的檢討報告蠻特別的,他說部分不適應的行為跟額逆行為是反應相仿,不易辨識,真的是這樣嗎?牙齒四顆掉了,然後指甲都拔了,然後還會說這個跟不適應的行為相仿,表示他沒有判斷的能力啊。報告還是呈現這樣的狀況,那怎麼可能作為未來去做改進呢?根本就是不太可能啊。"},{"start":3360.094,"end":3365.167,"text":"這個部分是不是應該邀請衛福部?我不知道部長這邊有沒有辦法做到?"},{"start":3367.208,"end":3395.047,"text":"這需要長期來做,那第一個剛剛委員提到的其實很重要一點,但是我們可能之前沒有辦法去做得很好的,就是收集資料的精確性,然後要去做分析,你如果不重視data的話,你根本就找不出來問題在哪裡。是,期待部長,是不是我覺得能不能針對這件事情很看重,"},{"start":3395.714,"end":3420.811,"text":"一個孩子如果他有同年有負面經驗的話對他未來長大生很多疾病的可能性非常的高我必須提醒委員應該是期待衛福部不是期待部長謝謝部長就是那我覺得衛福部就是那可是現在你還是在任內那也是要你的指令下下去才有辦法做到"},{"start":3421.601,"end":3450.581,"text":"那今天談了是不是就能夠接下來可以馬上跟進去做好下一頁防治問題事實上層出不窮這個我過去因為擔任過我們居家保姆的外度已經做了大概有10年常常碰到這樣的一個問題可是好像似乎都沒有人要去解決甚至今天保姆超收防治員防治兩三個小時還一直把他塞陽台然後你要強迫他開那個"},{"start":3451.735,"end":3462.212,"text":"房間門讓你進到陽台可是孩子滿頭大汗在陽台風險也非常高可是到底怎麼去做甚至有時候你收拖時間是晚上12點到凌晨一點防治院根本不可能在這個時間點"},{"start":3463.379,"end":3489.672,"text":"去防治、去看到小孩。」可是這都是在衛福部裡邊被允許的說這個時間點事實上是OK的還有一直都沒有辦法突破防治員就在底下管理員就是不讓他進去那今天我明明知道他有超收可是抱歉我就是不能進去那一直都為什麼不去突破大小管理條例這一塊然後使得反而每一次超收他把孩子移到鄰居家去之後"},{"start":3490.052,"end":3502.109,"text":"他再讓管理員開門才讓我進去那這樣子的話到底有沒有辦法解決沒有辦法解決啊所以我不知道是否可以用兒少全法70條來請各個單位配合還有這是很明顯的兒夢的這個案子"},{"start":3504.566,"end":3519.597,"text":"凱凱案是在下午時間,然後就說孩子睡眠輕鬆,所以呢精神不振,他早就精神不振了,可是你不是早上,你竟然是用下午時間,甚至孩子在下午睡覺的話,你根本也沒辦法看到孩子的樣態,所以,訪視員有沒有訪視的知能,怎麼會去選擇下午時間去訪視?"},{"start":3521.977,"end":3539.468,"text":"一定看到的不是真實的現象。」下一頁主席不好意思再給我兩分鐘那各縣是做法不一臺北市是祭典祭典可是有些東西很嚴重為什麼祭典我就不太瞭解因為按照我們的居家管理登記辦法裡邊本來就述明說"},{"start":3542.109,"end":3561.924,"text":"你如果訪視人員拒絕訪視的話,本來就要馬上去做處理,又扣兩分,扣兩分會怎麼樣?扣兩分不會怎麼樣?扣兩分只會是說還沒到達媒合暫停媒合三個月,媽媽找保姆幾乎都不是靠我們的居福中心媒合的,都是自己找的"},{"start":3563.005,"end":3586.095,"text":"有用嗎?即便它達到5分、達到3分也沒有用。有一些縣市是開改善單,如果事實上是已經超收了,為什麼還可以改善單?繼續讓它改善,繼續超收嗎?那我就不太懂,各縣市到底我們的衛福部有沒有掌握管理方式不一?臺北市採扣分子、新北市凱券導單"},{"start":3587.096,"end":3603.094,"text":"那中央有沒有統一的標準怎麼做有的是要去輔導三次都已經超收了甚至呢收託未回報這些東西都沒有甚至環境很糟抱歉就是一直勸導勸導那他勸導不改善你能怎麼辦繼續讓再勸導嗎所以"},{"start":3606.952,"end":3624.283,"text":"請衛福部是不是統一把這所有的縣市政府做的方式能夠瞭解那下一頁再下一頁針對保姆大家主張這幾個就是我們的施肢背景還有建立我們的額內樣態定期更新"},{"start":3625.84,"end":3638.434,"text":"還有我們一定要有訓練專業性還有是不是可以解決防治員的困境收集及彙整資料之後才一一去解決該修法的就修法下一頁新剝削這一塊"},{"start":3639.588,"end":3668.762,"text":"希望你們民定主管機關的全責不要都是讓大家看起來媽媽叫真的師兄弟去掃地的時候最後大家都沒掃地啦就大家都會在做推脫的狀態是不是可以民定事業主管機關比照兒少全法跟我們性階段犯罪防治法這樣子去做還有強化我們的偵查能量有個專責機構去增訂性影像的資料庫的系統才有辦法比對然後呢偵查到犯罪"},{"start":3669.462,"end":3693.757,"text":"民定主管機關立即時間性限制閱覽與移除通知的權限,懲罰一定要對於有支付金額購買性的剝削內容的網站會員。有急迫性的話,請速度快一點止血,能夠增加緊急資訊的限制規定。」以上,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝林月琴委員。接下來請陳金輝委員發言。"},{"start":3703.807,"end":3709.428,"text":"主席各位委員各位官員大家早安我請也請薛部長請薛部長對部長您上週早安部長您上週說您要回歸到我們的醫療了嘛所以大家也都非常祝福你也很歡迎你但今天呢還是有很多議題是許多相關團體想要關切當然今天是談論兒少議題可是我還是想幫他們請命一下啦"},{"start":3732.774,"end":3756.702,"text":"因為部長也要回到醫院了所以您知道說醫院對於這個用電量是24小時也千呼了醫療品質嘛不管是急診或是手術室因此您最近雖然宣布說會補助地區醫院的電費但其他的醫院目前是叫苦連天也很希望本席在這邊為他們傳達對比如說像新光醫院他們自己統計起來雖然"},{"start":3759.048,"end":3774.216,"text":"衛福部這邊說電費只佔他們的一兩趴但新光醫院自己統計起來可能高達數千萬每年會增加數千萬他們過去的兩年又因為這個健保點值0.8、0.7必須要大幅的加薪衛留醫療人員那這個"},{"start":3777.678,"end":3796.685,"text":"這個狀況的話他們是很希望說如果可以的話是不是由部長這邊來承諾因為他們也很擔心換了新任的部長沒有辦法延續您的議制是不是部長這邊來承諾你還是會落實這個點子的撥補還有電費可不可以全面的醫療院所都可以停動長"},{"start":3798.284,"end":3821.901,"text":"二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融"},{"start":3824.062,"end":3844.627,"text":"衛福部沒有這個預算也沒有做這方面的一個決策據我所知是行政院那邊因為會有一千億要撥給台電希望是從那裡面的話去支應之前的話是提到說地區院可能會這個調整的店會可能會從那邊去做補貼"},{"start":3848.708,"end":3861.54,"text":"可是區域醫院、醫學中心沒有談到但是這個事情大概就是會在整體行政院這個一千億怎麼樣撥下去的時候去討論我們會繼續以提案的方式來進行那也辛苦部長因為部長過去這"},{"start":3870.928,"end":3894.221,"text":"一個會期可能經歷了食安、社會安全網、家暴等等的但也有很多重大的政策是需要您繼續幫忙延續下去的之前您曾經這個執政黨的立委詢問您人工生殖法進程說拼上半年要把草案送進立院所以也經歷了三次公聽會包括這個委員會有一次您還有要繼續進行公聽會嗎?"},{"start":3896.122,"end":3912.078,"text":"還是專家會議?最近也有。公平會議應該已經結束了。那目前的話,大概就是做一些整理之後的話,我們預計,因為還要經過法規會,法規會還要一次。法規會這一次的話應該在下個禮拜會舉行。"},{"start":3913.419,"end":3937.106,"text":"然後之後的話我們就開始預告就會開始預告因為您去年有提到說這個版本是會有代理孕母的所以應該也還是會把這些女單啊、同性還有代理孕母都涵蓋進去是嗎?對,我們會把整體的可能的這一些範圍的通通會放在我們的草案裡面然後我們會經過預告之後那送行政院"},{"start":3937.739,"end":3956.79,"text":"好,那因為你也覺得立法院是一個民意匯集的地方,我也希望您之後送出來的草案是一個最完整的版本,然後讓我們放到這邊來討論,讓我們來審議它,如果之後必須要拿掉一些爭議性大的部分,也是我們民意的展現,這樣子好嗎?是,我也希望這樣子。"},{"start":3958.479,"end":3972.54,"text":"再來呢我想看一下這個兒少保護案件我們部長你這個以你聽過的這個經驗第一線的人員反應如果有家暴通報的時候警察會不會一起到現場"},{"start":3974.379,"end":4000.16,"text":"沒有說每一件都會那如果是兒保的案件呢?也是一樣就是說通報之後的話那以法規上面或者是說實務上面的話都是是需要好我們這邊有收到基層的社工人員反映說他們在處理脆弱家庭兒保案件的時候比如說不當管教性侵害脆弱家庭"},{"start":4001.241,"end":4023.934,"text":"不一定可以得到警察協助或者是他們請警察來陪同可是警察往往覺得自己只是陪同甚至請他們進入暗家的時候走在前面自己跟在後面這樣子非常的奇怪我們可以看左右兩邊的法規左邊是家暴右邊是兒保家暴是很明文的可以請求警察的保護"},{"start":4024.714,"end":4045.108,"text":"右邊的話呢是訪視顯有困難或者是這個刑方不明再來請求是不是警察可以一同協助但是其實呢針對第一線的社工反應像右邊啊第一個是食用毒品第二個是當女陪侍也就是陪酒嘛等等其實這些非常複雜的家庭對於剛畢業尤其是很單純的社工人員來說都是一個很複雜害怕的環境"},{"start":4053.454,"end":4059.367,"text":"所以也想在這邊問部長是不是可以在兒少全法大修的時候把這些意見一起納進去呢?"},{"start":4062.678,"end":4088.061,"text":"這個當然以社工或是說衛福部的角度的話我們也希望就是說進去這種比較高風險的場所去做這個兒少保護的工作的時候希望是有警察但是也要考慮到警察的那個人力量能的問題所以你有什麼具體的建議可以讓警政陪同社政這件事情可以把它法制化"},{"start":4089.163,"end":4111.62,"text":"這部分的話還是需要有一些分析啦其實就是說哪一類的案件類型在什麼樣的一個場所是就是說比較容易會有問題所以您的意思是說之後您會在兒保的這邊把不同的狀況再細分哪一些具體可以請求警察的保護是不是"},{"start":4112.14,"end":4137.307,"text":"就是說他等於是有分高低風險哪一類高風險的案子的話那就是請求警察保護他們都就好謝謝因為我們也不希望社工人員再繼續這樣流失下去了這邊也請確認部長的態度您會不會覺得所謂的預防才是建立兒少保護網的起點也是重要的核心概念"},{"start":4138.448,"end":4160.124,"text":"這個是沒有錯啦但是這個預防講是比較容易啦那事實上要做的話是相當的困難好那我們回顧一下上週的新聞齁您在4月14號這一天呢因為未還委員會有許許多多朝野的立委一再的督促您才承諾在當天的下午發文說請數位部將創意私房封網同時媒體也很關切說但是呢"},{"start":4166.168,"end":4190.917,"text":"如何可以尋查尋查這些人力嗎?從哪裡來嗎?當時當天下午你也說因為現在有人力的問題所以我沒有辦法定期的去尋查因此你說會委外處理是嗎?這部分的話應該一方面來講的話我們需要有一個法律授權是比較做起來會比較順那第二個就是說我跟委員報告"},{"start":4191.897,"end":4208.385,"text":"其實現在應該是法務部那邊有一個科技偵查法那已經在行政院裡面了那如果說那個法通過的話那就有法律的授權所以其實您4月11說要委外那個是在過渡期"},{"start":4209.145,"end":4236.958,"text":"所以你有要開標嗎目前正在朝你那一個那個這個招標招標對因為我從4月11至今用您講的關鍵字還有所有衛福部開標都沒有查到這一類的業務現在網路上也許有很多這個義勇軍很關心而受保護的很想要來做這件事情可是你遲遲都沒有進度啊可能我們兩個在聊天的這個時候又有人受害了"},{"start":4238.366,"end":4257.191,"text":"這我們會盡快啦,因為這個事情還是有一定的程度你能夠大概告訴我們這個招標公告什麼時候會出來嗎?這個我倒沒有辦法說現在馬上去回答這個問題啦可能至少也要將近一個月"},{"start":4260.452,"end":4281.719,"text":"一個月這也許不是很符合人民的期待啊所以我本席會再演你一下因為第一個要有這種技術那這種技術要實際上要怎麼樣執行的話我們必須要跟一些業界的專家一起去做討論才知道說那一個招標的規格要怎麼樣去寫"},{"start":4283.035,"end":4300.029,"text":"所以這個可能不是那麼快好一個月再來呢最後昨天網路上有非常多人關心這件事情因為憲法法庭針對死刑是否違憲進行了辯論法務部也有提出他們法務部的立場他們認為說現在如果貿然的這個釋憲的話可能會引發國內社會對立跟衝突"},{"start":4306.954,"end":4328.471,"text":"那剛剛也有聽到說其他兩位委員他們在講這個兒虐的案件這些受害人呢他跟我們大部分的受害人也許不太一樣因為他們是手無伏擊之力而且是非常的弱勢尤其是像凱凱最後一分鐘對尤其是像凱凱他是在很慢性的過程中被虐死的好我們會看到這個兒少性剝削隨便"},{"start":4331.673,"end":4353.612,"text":"翻閱33條、34條、35條、36條、37條在這些違反意願的性剝削還有性侵害、猥褻等等的用強迫脅迫藥物催眠這些都會以未來的死刑相關所以假使說憲法法庭釋憲的話呢我們就要去修改這些兒少性剝削的"},{"start":4354.272,"end":4371.887,"text":"法律所以我也想看您很特別是站在法律人的立場也站在我們兒少保護的醫師的立場所以您對於這樣子的看法是什麼角度呢當然這種兒少性剝削的這種犯罪的話那應該是要加強他的"},{"start":4375.149,"end":4391.754,"text":"處罰的程度,但是跟實行是否不一定有直接關係,看是不是要處以實踐,因為從我的理解來講的話,兒少性剝削條例裡面的刑法應該不至於定刀,"},{"start":4392.674,"end":4399.996,"text":"那邊實行那邊因為刑法就已經有刑法就已經有所以不一定需要再去訂這個是會有所謂的當時在危險時代的時候"},{"start":4410.92,"end":4434.232,"text":"那些唯一死刑後來會被取消的原因是在這個地方但是死刑是否應該仍然維持這個還是要整體的判斷所以我個人的意見大概這方面的話我不表示意見這半年來其實大家對於這些額虐案件是非常的憤慨所以我也在這邊希望部長可以跟我們大部分主流的民意站在一起謝謝"},{"start":4438.439,"end":4465.085,"text":"好謝謝陳景輝委員接下來請廖偉祥委員發言謝謝主席那這次呢比較特別有請我們NCC速發部、警政署跟法務部"},{"start":4467.32,"end":4476.307,"text":"請書發部牛司長還有內政部警政署賈樂吉警政委員還有法務部郭司長你們好因為很難得在我們未還委員會可以遇到我們打詐國家隊"},{"start":4491.212,"end":4514.315,"text":"所以想要先趁這個機會來請教你們我想請教NCC你們近期公布這個電信管理法那有關於這個電信事業用戶號碼使用管理的辦法規定我們一類電信業者跟我們二類的MVNO電信各有這個KYC的規定和法則對嗎?"},{"start":4516.781,"end":4538.412,"text":"報告委員,我嘗試回答委員的問題,因為今天我不是業管單位的主管,所以我嘗試回答委員的問題。因為電信號碼曾經被濫用,所以我們加強管理,經過行政院在"},{"start":4539.973,"end":4557.967,"text":"將跟數位部重新分工,把電信號碼的管理使用管理再劃歸NCC,所以NCC在前一陣子訂了那個委員剛才提到的那個號碼使用管理辦法,然後加強電信業者做KYC"},{"start":4559.465,"end":4563.987,"text":"二類電信業者與一類電信業者買門號上限與管制年初到現在總量有掌握嗎?業者有私下透露到現在為止還是可以大量取得"},{"start":4581.806,"end":4610.886,"text":"好,那我想要再請教NCC,你們去年7月聲稱這個未經實名制的黑美卡將無法在台上網,到目前為止你們查辦的進度如何?這一部分是也跟那個一些電商業者有在進行做一些處理那也請那個數位部產業署有加強處理,就是電商這部分那電信主要是針對第一類電信業者"},{"start":4611.827,"end":4627.908,"text":"那我們請他們針對那個門號的部分要加強管制因為現在已經沒有第二類電信事業這種登記所以只剩下那個幾大電信公司我直接講啊其實你們查辦的進度就是鬼扯"},{"start":4628.729,"end":4649.007,"text":"因為現在只要Google就可以看到還是標榜不記名免登記免證件隨插即用均有現貨而且我告訴你現在的廠商非常嘴砲他在首頁直接刊登了所謂的重要公告他在裡面就直接嗆名根據NCC的最新要求某些臺灣上網卡"},{"start":4650.788,"end":4673.954,"text":"漫遊卡、黑媒卡需要開始實名制,然而隨著臺灣總統大選的落幕,有了新的發展,也就是2024年1月13日電信公司發布最新聲明,宣布撤銷對臺灣漫遊上網卡的實名政策,恢復到正常運營狀態,也就是SIM卡直接插入手機自動開通"},{"start":4675.274,"end":4685.892,"text":"所以原本因臨時的實名制政策無法使用的用戶可以直接忽略簡訊上要求實名制的內容網卡都是隨插即用廠商直接嗆名我想請問這個內容是否屬實?"},{"start":4689.292,"end":4712.223,"text":"這個應該不是事實可能是誇大宣傳不過NCC會加強這些那個執法的力道這是一定的而且他們還直接嗆喔因為這些政策導變來變去導致他們蝦品的賣場獲得一堆負評他們也是非常無奈我們也不明白NCC是否要全面實名制為什麼只實施了10天的實名制又馬上取消所以你剛剛說這不是事實嗎"},{"start":4713.976,"end":4742.22,"text":"不是事實的話我跟你說我手上這張黑莓卡就是網路上買到的我這張就是網路上買到的卡片所以還不是事實嗎代表你們沒有真的好好的管制對不對那個NCC一定會那個強力來施法啦所以我告訴你我現在買到這個不用實名制的東西就是在告訴你們你們去年7月宣誓的內容根本就是狗屁嘛"},{"start":4743.618,"end":4751.413,"text":"就是根本沒有監管啊,所以我才買得到啊,而且Google排名還第一位所以我想要問喔,這個打炸國家隊到底在幹嘛?你們有人可以回應一下嗎?"},{"start":4755.477,"end":4782.618,"text":"打詐國家隊是在行政院層級,由各部會來...對,但是我剛針對這個NCC的事情就已經出現這樣的狀況,這不就是源頭管制嗎?我會回去報告,就是會請同仁到委員的辦公室了解那個是怎麼取得...所以我要告訴你們打詐國家隊還有NCC消極不作為,你們就是打詐的豬隊友"},{"start":4784.279,"end":4805.167,"text":"連你們NCC的前委員這個蕭齊鴻自己就是詐騙集團的幫兇就是詐騙集團的顧問他利用人脈還帶二類電信業者取得門號還叫他們用黑美卡製造斷點製造斷點也就是剛剛這種啊他不需要實名不用證證然後拔掉就無法追蹤難以追查的SIM卡所以這個政策轉彎是誰決定有誰定調啊"},{"start":4809.636,"end":4836.606,"text":"好你回答不出來我就直接講好了沒有轉彎只是執行不力加強但是執行不力所以我說你們NCC只要多管一點多做一點法官根本不會有詐騙案海的淹沒的問題我們最近可以看到這個法官都已經壓力大到墜樓連辦台版的這個檢查這個柬埔寨案的法官傳訊息的說"},{"start":4838.044,"end":4844.252,"text":"我愛你抱歉要離開你了請問你們知道嗎?你們看到這個訊息我想請問法務部你們NCC打炸國家隊不會覺得心痛嗎?跟委員說明齁那個其實法務部檢察官的這個業務量其實比法官還來得多因為"},{"start":4858.922,"end":4885.635,"text":"我們起訴過去的案子百分之八十幾乎都在檢察官手頭上處理掉了所以當然對於這個法官墜樓這件事情我們也深感遺憾痛心自己這個系出同盟雖然後面分家了兄弟各自登山各自努力但是我們仍然感到非常的可以感同身受所以"},{"start":4886.115,"end":4911.617,"text":"在檢方這一塊我們就盡量的這一個用這一個包括我們科證法的一個修訂、洗房法以及這個不是我覺得剛剛聽起來就是我剛剛覺得有點好笑就是你剛剛說就像說檢察官的量還是大比法官多啊你覺得這個很無奈好我要告訴你的事情就是整體的量都非常的大詐騙的量就是非常的大"},{"start":4912.378,"end":4940.95,"text":"比去年增加了非常的多,不管從檢調、警察、基層員警都是一樣所以導致到現在源頭你們打詐國家隊的源頭搞不定人家壓力大到墜樓然後工作勞累那你NCC的委員不做事就算了還領這個詐騙集團的錢當詐騙集團的幫兇技術指導這讓我們人民怎麼信任啊另外警政署、訴發部也都在我想要請教一下"},{"start":4942.148,"end":4946.917,"text":"你們的這個警示帳戶聯防通報的子系統現在串聯哪些電信業者跟銀行"},{"start":4952.944,"end":4972.745,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會第12屆第"},{"start":4974.193,"end":5000.219,"text":"數位化的部分進展還沒完整。」那我要問你們警政署喔你們掌握該平台這個的問題有沒有遇到覺得很難用的部分想請教數發部有沒有修正了你們兩個一起回答好了報告委員好因為這個部分其實在電子警視帳戶的部分目前為止我們的所謂的產業署在處理這方面我就是請產業署的同仁回答"},{"start":5004.318,"end":5025.192,"text":"報告委員,我們現在目前來講的話,速發部主要是業管所謂的第三方支付業者,還有所謂的電商,那目前來講的話,我們已經找了,因為我們第三方業者有做這個能量登錄,那能量登錄進來的業者裡面,我們大概有現在通過有40幾家,我們會把那40幾家的一些通報平台大概"},{"start":5025.712,"end":5052.34,"text":"串在一起。」就是說他包括我們現在再把這個平台架上去就是說這個第三方業者背後搭配的一些銀行是什麼沒關係我跟你講這個系統同報紙系統我跟基層的員警有溝通過目前有遇到這下列的問題請你們好好的回去檢討一個外籍受處分人也就是外國人他的身份證號輸入因為無統一規定要輸入護照號碼的身份證號導致系統判定是不同的案件無法併案"},{"start":5053.991,"end":5064.57,"text":"你知道嗎?知道 這個問題有反映過要以身份證字號就一個那你們改善了嗎?目前已經通報改善了已經完成改善了嗎?"},{"start":5066.667,"end":5088.104,"text":"還在處理中所以還沒改善好我告訴你這就是基層員警遇到的問題他們很痛苦原諒很大再來外籍系統事辦期間變成登載系統要傳真給銀行例如統一案要設8個不同銀行就要與8個銀行溝通而且是傳真萬一遇到銀行端設備問題一個案件要搞好幾個小時平常業務都不用做工時還要更長"},{"start":5089.105,"end":5109.62,"text":"再來,系統沒有跟165系統連動,尋找被害人的資料要上165下載,還要在再行上傳告誡系統,甚至卷宗還要分一頁一頁上傳,你們覺得這樣子夠數位、夠科技、夠多元宇宙嗎?我們覺得是不夠,所以我們這部分已經在花包了,這部分我們自信是已經認為今天這個真的是一個問題,所以我們已經"},{"start":5113.122,"end":5128.447,"text":"所以你們打詐國家隊搞到現在整個報案流程還在搞傳真系統還會當機然後銀行收到通知在執行我跟你講這車手都可以把錢領走了這些問題可不可以回去確實的檢討請我們打詐國家隊的五個兄弟好好的檢討好謝謝好謝謝呃廖偉祥委員接下來請邱振軍委員發言"},{"start":5149.318,"end":5159.227,"text":"主席好,我們先請我們法務部我們的郭司長請法務部檢察司郭司長"},{"start":5165.763,"end":5184.415,"text":"國事長好我請問一下我們昨天這個執行的這個視線辯論扣除需要迴避的三位大法官其餘12位裡面有7位大法官支持廢死那在台灣呢有超過八成的民眾是反對廢死的"},{"start":5185.916,"end":5209.367,"text":"假設大法官釋憲,結果與民意不符,法務部接下來的動作會是什麼?跟委員報告,法務部很堅決地認為,這個有關於廢死的議題,應該交由國會來決定。那如果這個...因為大法官...因你們專業的角度來看呢?是。"},{"start":5210.408,"end":5225.707,"text":"因為這個判決還沒有辦到了大概應該7到9月份才出來在還沒有判決出來之前我們實在無法預測到底憲法法庭會做怎麼樣一個決定那以你個人的看法"},{"start":5227.498,"end":5250.865,"text":"更委員報告,這個我個人是在不方便在這個場合我覺得我們是支持維持死刑但是我也支持就是在判決的時候我們能夠更嚴謹我覺得當然人權基本的人權要保護當然我們更要給被害者的家屬一個交代當然"},{"start":5252.566,"end":5281.932,"text":"如果維持死刑的話當然我個人認為對於犯罪的部分能夠有效的有部分的一個賀紙您支持嗎?我支持那我們再請一下我們這個衛福部我們薛部長你那個鎮市長您等一下部長好上次本席形容的部長跟法務部可能沒什麼感覺我們先看一下影片"},{"start":5287.062,"end":5314.468,"text":"不是對中間連鞋子都掉了奮力站起來卻又不受控的一屁股跌坐倒地如同殭屍般的詭異行為引起民眾圍觀另一段同樣來自中國的畫面長髮熱褲妹成了對折人躺在地上扭來扭去原來他們都是上頭電子煙的影君子"},{"start":5319.025,"end":5334.859,"text":"獨品危害防治條例第二條第一項的規定,獨品包含對社會危害性的麻醉藥品及其製品。」那部長我想請問一下,依托米子是據本席了解它是屬於管制的麻醉藥品對吧?"},{"start":5335.799,"end":5360.652,"text":"目前還沒有列進去但是他是有一個有藥證的麻醉藥你們回去之後瞭解他還不是就對了所以這個5月9號我們會送管制藥品審議委員會他是定期開會我們會送到他那邊去做一個決定那如果他是符合就是說委員會裡面大家同意的話他就會列為管制藥品"},{"start":5361.292,"end":5384.377,"text":"列為管制藥品之後的話,我們就會再請那部長您覺得他對人體有沒有傷害?他對人體當然你如果說像這樣長期在用的話那會有傷害但是他也有醫療的用途就是說做一個短效的一個麻醉對我們知道馬飛他也是有醫療的用途對不對?但是他還是受控制的"},{"start":5385.197,"end":5407.982,"text":"所以我覺得部長你回去之後我希望你們能夠盡快的將這個部分能夠納入我們的討論的一個議題那更希望能夠盡快的來管制做一個有效的一個管制因為我們每三個月我知道我們毒品審議委員會每三個月都會定期的來檢討那下一次是什麼時候"},{"start":5411.708,"end":5427.341,"text":"跟委員說明,我們毒品審議委員會我記得是上個月有開過,因為我們上個月開一次,應該是在現在4月份,大概7、8月份吧。好,那本席在這邊就要求啦,將伊托米子加入審查內容可以嗎?"},{"start":5429.142,"end":5456.73,"text":"這也跟委報告我剛剛有報告過五月的時候我們就會進入管制藥品的這個審議委員會如果它略為管制藥品也就是說它在某種情形之下可以做藥但是它必須要嚴格監管那這個時候就會提到法務部的這個毒品審議好那我這樣子除了這個剛剛一堆米子的部分我也希望法務部我們的K他命的這個分級的檢討一併納入可以嗎"},{"start":5459.379,"end":5478.86,"text":"謝謝委員提醒我們這個會在這個獨品審議委員會裡面提出因為我們才合一致我們就請委員討論這樣子我知道你們考慮很多當然過去我們某位部長級的官員也曾經提到如果中南部學校全校學生抓去驗尿"},{"start":5480.181,"end":5494.255,"text":"恐怕許多的學校要關門如果以這種立場我本席真的非常的不認同我想國家是未來的小朋友是這個年輕人是我們國家未來的一個主人翁我們更加要好好的保護"},{"start":5495.436,"end":5513.064,"text":"那當然也要表現我們政府對於這個反毒的決心我希望我們法務部、衛福部還有內政部、我們警政署與教育部要做好跨部會的這個橫向的一個聯繫像我看到我們現在看這個表"},{"start":5514.724,"end":5534.298,"text":"我們每一年都有一個通報的一個機制那108年我看108年到112年這當中每一次學校安全通報的濫用藥物的這個案件跟警政署通報的就有一個落差我想請警政署這邊也來說明一下這是為什麼警政署"},{"start":5554.834,"end":5581.669,"text":"邱委員好那這些通報的一個差距因為我們我們在數字有兩個系統所以在受理跟入案之間就會本來就會有一個猶豫期間所以它出來的一個數字一定不會相同如果數字在一定的期間之內我們大概都可以容許但是我這樣看起來幾乎都差了三分之一啊"},{"start":5583.403,"end":5608.541,"text":"多了大概三分之一以上我要強調就是說我們學校跟警政署掌握的數據不太一樣的原因當然就是橫向的聯繫不足就是我們沒有有效的跟學校保持一個聯繫學校也沒有辦法跟警政署這邊保持一個很好的溝通導致於我們這個數據不對"},{"start":5611.372,"end":5628.653,"text":"這有可能啦,這可能性也很高,那這部分我們已經加強少年隊跟學校之間的一個聯繫,而且現在學校部也蠻主動的,跟以往的概念不一樣,所以他們也蠻主動的來那我請問警政署,我看到這個數據每一年都有在下降,對吧?"},{"start":5629.995,"end":5642.258,"text":"您認為K他命跟這些毒品的在校園犯這個案子是因為我們學校查得好還是因為我們現在的做法是對的所以它逐年下降"},{"start":5643.839,"end":5671.716,"text":"應該都有這兩項都是雙管齊下的因為學校這部分真的比較正視這個問題了但是為什麼我覺得還是那個還是蠻氾濫的還是沒有下降用毒的人反而更多是這可能是單一事件的影響的一個渲染效果您認為這個數字跟我們的這個比如說K他命好了他因為毒品的分級制他是列三級你覺得跟這個有關嗎"},{"start":5673.816,"end":5699.639,"text":"在青少年使用的時候,他們不會分這麼清楚,他們是以自己取得的方式...對,但是警政署這邊辦案的話,他會不會因為他只是三級毒品而不太去訴訟?不會。我覺得會。您相信嗎?我改天拿數據給你們看。謝謝。對不對?因為警察每一個人他們都要有一個績效。"},{"start":5702.582,"end":5716.65,"text":"當我們警政署給他們一個標準的時候他們當然是照著那個分數有績效的去做當沒有這個警政署沒有在注意這件事情的時候他當然就當然有碰到當然就一定會做只是他的重點不會放在這邊"},{"start":5717.631,"end":5740.609,"text":"你懂我意思嗎?所以我不認為這數據是可以參考的啦可以是對的啦所以我希望我們警政署跟我們學校這邊能夠做好一個有效的一個溝通這樣可以嗎?因為時間好像也到了我大概再問一下那個市長請回我再問一下衛福部"},{"start":5742.212,"end":5769.249,"text":"我們今年年初我們有一個優化偏鄉醫療精進計畫這一個部分那今年年初我們苗栗18個鄉鎮市有9個衛生所醫生出缺比例高達50%凸顯我們苗栗縣的衛生所的醫師嚴重不足因此本席對於優化偏鄉醫療精進做法非常的期待不過目前我們只看到一張計畫的大網看不到詳細的內容"},{"start":5771.609,"end":5796.703,"text":"這部分的話因為行政院應該是剛剛才核定才核定那我這樣講因為時間不太夠這部分我改天再來問你我也希望說部長能夠多重視一下這個偏鄉醫療不足的問題當然所以我們才提這個計畫好謝謝部長好謝謝我們謝謝我們的邱振軍委員接下來請王育民委員發言"},{"start":5804.482,"end":5820.354,"text":"好謝謝主席我們請部長部長好部長好部長你現在心情有很輕鬆嗎要來立法院都不會很輕鬆都不會很輕鬆"},{"start":5822.383,"end":5836.71,"text":"好,那個我想請問你,您對於這個要接任的邱太元部長,你自己要不要專業比一比?你覺得你的專業比較強還是他專業比較強?沒有啦,這無從比較啦。無從比較?不敢比較還是無從比較?不敢比較。"},{"start":5837.681,"end":5860.846,"text":"本期是覺得你還蠻認真的就是什麼事情你都認真以待這是一個非常好的特質我當然希望新任的部長也有像你一般的認真才扛得起衛福部這麼大的一個部門因為衛福部的事情真的非常多那本期首先還是要追一下那個保齡事件我覺得保齡事件現在會不會變成無頭公案怎麼到目前為止"},{"start":5862.166,"end":5887.398,"text":"一度傳出警方說有重大發現結果又無疾而終又沒消沒息那這個案件到目前為止他是非常重大的死案事件從3月到現在已經通報35人兩人死亡4個人在家戶病房而這4個人的狀況還不見得很樂觀那這麼重大的一個死案事件到目前為止方克烈酸源頭在哪裡"},{"start":5888.238,"end":5906.942,"text":"完全沒有辦法給外界的交代一個多月了,到底現在卡在哪裡?部長目前的話衛福部這邊能調查大概已經都調查完畢了最後的話就是實際上在運作的那個廚師當時是怎麼樣做的那因為這個是檢察機關在調查"},{"start":5913.343,"end":5934.551,"text":"檢察官並沒有把這個訊息透露給我們所以我們也不從知道所以現在大概就最後的這個偵查的階段我們也希望說那個檢察機關如果偵查結束之後那看看是否起訴不起訴等等的話就能夠把案情是比較明朗化"},{"start":5935.071,"end":5957.353,"text":"本席覺得在這麼重大的事件的偵辦過程當中衛福部作為主管機關但是檢調方面一方面他去了解的那種跟你們沒有辦法一起合作然後一起去針對這些原因反覆的大家去探討這個是不是有什麼問題啊因為你這樣等於是你兩個是完全脫鉤你完全沒有辦法掌握這個到底"},{"start":5958.094,"end":5971.996,"text":"可能的原因。」那他沒有再回來跟你做一些核對嗎?因為這個偵查不公開,如果說檢方沒有主動要把訊息釋出的話,我們也無從去詢問。今天法務部有人來對不對?檢察司、國司長?"},{"start":5974.005,"end":5998.886,"text":"我覺得這樣子針對一個重大案件應該是要通力合作吧現在看起來就是各負責一邊然後拼湊不出來這個圖像沒辦法給國人交代市長你了解嗎?這個案件現在的最新狀況?跟委員報告這個隔岸之暴零案子現在分別為由一個臺北地檢跟士林檢察官在偵辦那士林檢察官因為那一邊是有死亡案子他有香菸案子"},{"start":5999.306,"end":6028.187,"text":"那不管怎麼講它都是一個偵查案件那偵查案件就如同剛剛部長講的因為那個涉及到偵查秘密的一個問題那當然檢察官在偵查的一個作為包括鑑定、包括這個剛剛委員提問的有關於毒品的這些可能污染源在哪裡對,幫黑獵山的源頭在哪裡其實這個都會跟衛福部這邊可能會有所聯繫啊因為那個是個案個案的偵查細節如何我們法部其實是不方便"},{"start":6028.967,"end":6057.694,"text":"進去去問他了。」那這個部分你的台高檢署也督導在偵辦著對,我要問的是邦克列酸的那個源頭是什麼其實不是要問個案的細節而這個部分我覺得應該是跨部會你們都有責任好好的去偵辦而不是一句說偵辦中然後好像就沒事了然後各做各的我覺得這樣子要找出這個源頭應該是蠻困難因為到目前為止一個多月過去了拼湊不出這個圖像也沒有辦法給國人一個交代"},{"start":6058.374,"end":6076.702,"text":"這個是法務部你們應該回過頭去檢討你們常常一句說個案偵查不公開然後好像所有的人就不可以再往下去了解所有的內容我覺得這樣好像是不對這件事情是食安事件我們要了解的是那個源頭這個不是涉及到個人的刑事案件這個這應該不太一樣吧"},{"start":6078.283,"end":6103.54,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個偵查這一個部分一定會跟衛福部合作是啊,那有嗎?你們兩邊有兜嗎?部長你有得到法務部的訊息嗎?沒有,有關於這一些說科學證據等等這些的話那雙方是有聯繫所以這部分的話我們大概都已經把資料給檢方啦當然檢方所調查就是那個個人的選委之前沒有回饋給我們啦"},{"start":6106.802,"end":6122.478,"text":"我覺得這一件事情你們還要再去檢討就是全國民眾在等真正的原因是什麼結果現在快要變無頭公安了就是不知道到底是什麼我也希望法務部你們加快好不好這個是一個全國高度矚目的食安案件不是環辦"},{"start":6123.539,"end":6137.933,"text":"就是要趕快用你們團隊的量好好去偵辦好不好趕快給國人一個交代這個是關乎到國人食安非常重要的另外一個回到今天家暴的議題這個我們是請今天司法院也有代表來副廳長嗎李副廳長"},{"start":6141.175,"end":6164.77,"text":"這個近三年來這一些保護令的核發件數跟駁回比例我們可以看到在這個駁回比例的部分是有升高的情況那照道理來講這一些保護的案件當事人可能他就是覺得很有需求才去申請保護令結果到了司法院之後你們駁回你們有去分析你們駁回的原因是什麼嗎你看112年有高達6000多件"},{"start":6168.172,"end":6176.744,"text":"如果說他是應該保護而被你們駁回那這個受害者他的保護應該要怎麼去落實?這個你們有進一步去了解嗎?好 謝謝委員跟委員報告"},{"start":6181.638,"end":6201.316,"text":"那那個法官在在審理法官或是司法事務官在審理這個保護令的事件的時候他依照我們的規定還有我們的法律的證據去判斷符不符合如果符合就應該要核發如果不符合當然不符合要件當然就會駁回那所以"},{"start":6202.017,"end":6217.857,"text":"這進段法院就一律是要看他所提出的市民的證據夠不夠達到這個合法的必要性那還有合法的內容是哪一類型的相似的那個保護令的內容來據以保護被害人而不受再繼續受到家庭暴力"},{"start":6218.317,"end":6237.197,"text":"但是他現在看起來駁回的案件數有增加的情況比例也是增加的情況你們有沒有去探究是什麼樣的原因這當中會不會有即使是個別法官認定的這個標準寬鬆不一的然後本來應該要核發但是因為他比較嚴格所以他就駁回你再看下一張圖"},{"start":6239.399,"end":6253.17,"text":"這個112年各地方的這個保護令的核發力看起來是很不一致的你可以看到有這種72%的也有這種在這個澎湖只有47%的這個整個的這個落差你們有去探究嗎?各縣市執行狀況不一的情況"},{"start":6257.948,"end":6278.586,"text":"那跟委員報告,個別地院他因為案件的類型也不太一樣,所以這個部分我們當然不一樣,但是每一個縣市的差異化有這麼大嗎?若從72%到47%,差異化有這麼大嗎?每一個家庭的家暴的原因的成因,然後他需要收到保護令的這個保護"},{"start":6282.189,"end":6305.023,"text":"這個標你不覺得落差很大嗎那你們有沒有我現在要問的是司法院你們有沒有認真的去看待這件事情因為基本上每一個已經要動用到保護令了他都是從受害者本身都覺得他非常的有需要他才會採取這樣的一個動作或者是社政主管機關也覺得很有需要或者是警察覺得很有需要才會協助他結果"},{"start":6306.044,"end":6324.829,"text":"在這個司法院核發下來的,如果都還有十幾帕,而且是呈現增加的情況,並沒有去核發的話,那這個就是應該好好去檢討啊。」是。跟委員報告,我們司法行政有不斷在發函,還有或者藉由…你們近期有針對這個開過任何會議嗎?跟衛福部去檢討。"},{"start":6329.31,"end":6330.533,"text":"公職委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6339.079,"end":6363.848,"text":"如果有把那個報告給本席我要看你們檢討出來的原因是什麼而且你們改善的是什麼另外最後一個問題我要問的是這個衛福部就是有關於目睹兒少的部分你們現在施行的一個情況在你們這個家暴裡面兒少保護類型每一年因為這個家暴案件再通報進來大概是100件左右但是民間團體認為這種"},{"start":6366.389,"end":6387.871,"text":"我們每一年將近20萬件的家暴案件這種目睹的兒少可能是超過10萬那這麼大的一個落差還有你們的服務量這當中這件事情你們現在的資源夠嗎?有在做嗎?落實的情況好嗎?因為在你們今天的報告裡面就只有一句話就是目睹兒少我也沒有看到"},{"start":6388.371,"end":6408.591,"text":"你們呈現的。」所以這個到底現在在衛福部裡面有沒有很重視這件事情這個是在上一波修法裡面特別這個民間倡議希望針對目睹這個家暴的兒少應該要進一步提供服務但是我看現在在你們所有的業務優先順序上它還是一個排在很末端的"},{"start":6409.704,"end":6426.841,"text":"這個部分的話當然也會需要我們跟教育單位之間的協助因為這些目睹的兒少那很多都是在學齡中的今天教育單位也沒有來嗎?教育部也沒有任何代表來?"},{"start":6429.196,"end":6452.11,"text":"這件事情我希望這個衛福部跟教育部要好好重視因為這樣的一個心理創傷他是看不見的這一個傷但是對他的影響坦白講是很大的所以如果我們從一個比較預防的角度來看的話這一塊我希望你們可以好好重視好不好好謝謝好謝謝我們王委員接下來請黃秀芳委員發言"},{"start":6457.888,"end":6485.807,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長有請我們的薛部長委員好部長昨天我看到一則新聞我就嚇一跳就是說有民眾在那個網路平台上就是說這個PTT的這個八卦版上面就是說臺北慈濟醫院的護理師偷拍病人的私密照"},{"start":6487.045,"end":6492.253,"text":"然後在網路上這樣子傳我覺得這是很離譜"},{"start":6495.904,"end":6523.203,"text":"呃這個一個病人他在那個呃可能在這個開刀房那呃旁邊可能都是醫師或者是護理人員齁那這個病人他根本完全不知道他被做了什麼動作或者是被做了什麼被拍照還是他是完全不知道的齁那我們今天討論的這個呃這個兒童及少年性剝削的防治條例當中這個犯罪的這個樣態其實這個好像也沒有包括在裡面齁如果是兒少就會"},{"start":6523.823,"end":6542.962,"text":"是好那我想請教就是說這一家這個臺北慈濟醫院他是這個3月份才剛剛升格成這個醫學中心的醫院然後我不知道說部長這一件這一件我現在好像地方的這個衛生局還是交給醫院執行內部先調查沒有"},{"start":6544.203,"end":6561.961,"text":"我們是要求衛生局去做調查的應該要一個禮拜要把調查的報告給我們據我們所知的話醫院本身也對這位護理師提出移送"},{"start":6563.722,"end":6576.371,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展"},{"start":6593.722,"end":6621.673,"text":"真的一個病人他都躺在那邊然後還可以這樣子被對待如果這件事情是事實的話那當然醫院的責任就會很大就是說在開刀房裡面針對病人尤其是在他麻醉之後已經沒有知覺的清醒之下的話那應該只有在醫學上有必要的才可以去對對他做拍攝那我是覺得"},{"start":6623.39,"end":6641.845,"text":"邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、內政部警政署、法"},{"start":6646.269,"end":6671.994,"text":"通常因為在開刀房裡面不是只有一個人在是一群人在是一群人做這樣子的事情是有一點匪夷所思是所以到底他是一個什麼樣的狀況哪一顆的病人上進了手術房是做了全身麻醉還有機會去做這個事情對我是有點因為從實務上面來看很多做全身麻醉的病人"},{"start":6672.734,"end":6701.186,"text":"他是必須你開刀的部位在哪裡都已經鋪好了才開始做麻醉的這是沒有機會去做這種事情不是說一個人然後把衣服通通脫光然後就麻醉了然後再去說我去準備說哪個地方要做開刀事實上並不是這個樣子所以這個敘述我是覺得也有一點奇怪不過還是要看調查的結果"},{"start":6701.186,"end":6722.358,"text":"好,我們希望說盡快盡快,而且我發現現在是衛生局他們會自己主動調查嗎?是不是?對,對,我們是要求是這樣。好,那我們希望是這樣子,而不是交給醫院自己調查。當然,當然。對,好,因為我覺得說病人的這個權益真的是要保護,一個完全被麻醉的一個病人躺在那邊,"},{"start":6723.078,"end":6748.425,"text":"被怎樣對待其實它本身是不清楚的所以我們也希望說衛福部這邊針對未來如果調查完之後該怎麼處理或者是病人的權益要怎麼去保護我覺得我們都要好好去思考好不好那接下來我想請教就是說在前幾天衛福部有針對我們這個兒少性剝削的防治條例有做一個跨部會的一個討論修法的方向"},{"start":6749.685,"end":6775.878,"text":"那我想請教部長就是說未來我們這一個這個兒少性播宣就有特別提到就是說四大修法的方向一個是加重刑責那簡化封網流程那還有考慮對付費觀覽兒少性影像處以刑責那也授權政府主動搜尋相關網站與金流那我想請教這個部長就針對這四個方向"},{"start":6779.2,"end":6794.355,"text":"衛福部這邊你是不是可以先稍微提一下因為未來如果我們立法院這邊針對這個修法在委員會排審的話就是說針對很多委員都有提出已經這個版本應該好幾十個版本"},{"start":6797.458,"end":6818.346,"text":"目前是還沒有院版,院版可能要等到你們衛福部要送到行政院這邊才會再送到立法院所以520之前可能我不知道說你們會不會來得及那我是不是先可以請部長就你們現在跨部會這個修法的方向是不是可以先簡單的做一個報告"},{"start":6819.766,"end":6846.009,"text":"跟我們報告,大概是這樣子,院版一定是緩不濟急,如果依照程序,包括預告,然後法規會要送到行政院,政委再做審查,通過院會再過來的話,大概時間會很冗長。所以我們是就條文的部分,其實我們都有一個參考的建議的條文在這邊。"},{"start":6847.33,"end":6876.47,"text":"那如果是要快當然就是委員的版本就直接審了那我們提供我們的意見在討論條文的時候就去做這樣子的適當的調整如果說衛福部的意見是可採的話那的確啦其實這一次的這個我們的建議的方向就是剛剛委員提到的那四個"},{"start":6878.532,"end":6891.047,"text":"他分散在一些條文裡面當然會有一個新增的條文所以這個就要委員的版本有提我們才派得上用場"},{"start":6892.529,"end":6917.8,"text":"好當然就是說希望這個趕快當然這個我希望衛福部這邊能夠盡快那當然這個時間可能也有這個可能會跟立法院這邊可能會有一些時間的一個落差好像王昭偉有說下個禮拜下禮拜要拍所以我們的變成說我們就把速度加快這樣子讓下個禮拜在討論的時候就更具體"},{"start":6920.021,"end":6947.086,"text":"那先謝謝部長那我接下來是不是可以請教就是說我們在前一陣子也特別提到就是說這個影像可能在這個網路上面那購買這個金流這個追蹤金流還有這個這個巡查的方式剛剛部長也有提到就是說可能你們會委外巡查的方式可能就是委外那這個金流的部分就是金管會金管會這邊我是不是可以請教金管會這邊"},{"start":6957.386,"end":6960.268,"text":"委員會 金管會是否能說明相關的金流是否可以追蹤、巡查或阻斷?"},{"start":6972.326,"end":6991.206,"text":"報告委員,就是說在金流的部分,那這個案子如果說他在,就是世法健康基金會在追查的時候,他如果有查到說有經過,就是我們金管會目前已經完成法尊聲明的這些,這些這個虛擬同夥的交易平臺的話,那因為我們在那個"},{"start":6992.947,"end":7012.874,"text":"這我們都叫VASPR,VASPR這個審判方式辦法裡面要求他們對於這個客戶要採取實名制的所以應該是如果說這些VASPR如果接到司法警方機關要求這個提供資料的這個要求的話他們會會配合司法警方機關來提供資料那也許就可以去找找到相關這些嫌犯以上是"},{"start":7013.314,"end":7038.624,"text":"好,那我們希望就是說有關這個兒少新博學可能從跨部會都要一起合作不是是衛福部那當然金管會還有很多的部會大家要一起合作才有辦法阻絕啦要不然我覺得說這個在這麼網路新興的一個這個社會當中其實犯罪的樣態一直在一直在變化層出不窮所以我覺得跨部會真的是非常的重要好那謝謝部長好謝謝"},{"start":7041.072,"end":7061.804,"text":"好,謝謝我們的黃秀芳委員。那接下來請圖全集委員發言。好,謝謝主席。再麻煩請我們薛部長。有請薛部長。"},{"start":7068.615,"end":7096.124,"text":"委員好好 薛部長先請教一下像我們2020年1月21號開始就是我們COVID-19新冠疫情因為有很多民眾想了解一下就是說我們現在疫情指揮中心已經解編了嘛 對不對那我們現在的情況新冠疫情的時代算是正式結束了嗎還是還是還有在管制還是處理還是怎麼樣"},{"start":7097.304,"end":7121.541,"text":"目前這個因為這個COVID-19的這一隻病毒經過一直的一個演化之後的話那現在有的這一些這個類型已經它的致重症率已經是相當的低了所以我們就把它從第五類的傳染病把它"},{"start":7122.641,"end":7147.375,"text":"降到變成現在應該是屬於第一次類那也就是說他不再是一個有重大健康威脅的一個傳染病但是他仍然是一個傳染病所以我們每年仍然要去注意到他的流行的狀況那也有必要說在疫苗的施打方面的話也可能必須要持續"},{"start":7148.616,"end":7157.88,"text":"所以基本上其實它是還沒有結束只是把它對不會結束變成一般性的傳染病這樣子所以沒有結束的問題那還有就是針對我們4月15號有請我們衛福部針對818天"},{"start":7170.286,"end":7191.502,"text":"停止解析這部分。」後來我們有看一下就是針對兒少性剝削防治條例第8條那時候你們說因為是在112年2月15號修法所以也看了一下就是說他在修改之前的差別就是在修改之前就是形式"},{"start":7192.322,"end":7211.764,"text":"司法上的執法行為,就是要有刑事司法才能去執法,後來修法之後,給行政機關有行政作為的空間,也就是衛福部從那個時候才有法源依據,去處理我們違反惡劣性影像的網站停止解析。」"},{"start":7213.866,"end":7233.25,"text":"好那我們想了解說那但是就算他沒有818天可是如果說從112年2月15號修法那也也有420天的時間那為什麼那個時候沒有辦法去做這部分其實這一個"},{"start":7237.378,"end":7258.791,"text":"所謂的這種把他封網這件事情的話,仍然是有兩類,一類的話是在法務部這邊偵查的過程當中,他會主動去等於是扣押,把證據保留,這樣子的動作去做的。"},{"start":7259.511,"end":7281.904,"text":"那第八條之後的話是修法之後是衛福部基於兒少保護的情形之下也可以去做但是我們那個時候就是說把這個程序定在施行細則裡面怎麼樣去做這件事情那所以這一個變成說就動作會比較冗長一點"},{"start":7283.565,"end":7305.458,"text":"對我們不了解就是說到底是什麼原因是因為那種情況下我們衛福部是不知情還是什麼情況下不能去處理而且據我們了解我們後來今年4月10號停止解析也是用兒少剝削防治條例的第7條跟性侵害犯罪"},{"start":7306.198,"end":7331.729,"text":"防治法的第9條以及行政執行法的第36條,含請我們速發部去停止解析。」那看起來跟第8條修法好像也沒有關係啊因為當時的這個去年修法之後的話當然它的這個情形是這個樣子的就是說第一個我們必須要有這個民眾的申訴"},{"start":7333.09,"end":7353.138,"text":"民眾申訴下來之後的話才能夠啟動那個流程我們並沒有權目前也還沒有什麼權可以是普遍性去主動去做網路的搜尋所以我在想說是不是如果像這樣的事情如果沒有民眾申訴沒有民眾檢舉"},{"start":7354.378,"end":7369.793,"text":"那這個網站他一直犯罪的影像一直在外面散播傳送那難道我們衛福部沒有一些機制去主動去知道這些事去處理嗎所以我們這次修法就是希望說法律授權我們有這樣子的一個機制來做這件事情"},{"start":7370.794,"end":7391.102,"text":"所以我們一直就是希望凸顯到底問題在哪裡為什麼這個事情一直發生我說從前面檢察官起訴到後面一審定驗我不知道我們到底在等什麼我們衛福部才有機會去處理這樣子的事情因為事實上我們不見得知道有這類的案件除非說有人來做申訴檢舉"},{"start":7392.663,"end":7416.648,"text":"或者是說檢方那邊來請我們做一些協助判斷,這個時候我們才會知道這類的案件。」所以我記得上次部長有講,你說從就算4月10號那一天,你們發函給疏發部停止解析,而且還是冒著法律風險。那我想請問一下,到底是冒著什麼法律風險?根文報告,當時"},{"start":7418.948,"end":7445.417,"text":"不是只有當時,現在也還是啦就一個施行細則在那邊施行細則我們必須要,比方說民眾檢舉了檢舉之後的話,我們必須要發這個行政處分給這個業者這個網站的業者然後要確定他收到了收到這個行政處分已經送達了然後他不願意遵守"},{"start":7446.537,"end":7471.144,"text":"我們才可以去做封網這個動作或者就是說我們找不到那個人到底是誰那也沒有聯絡的方式我們才可以去做這件事情那是在這個施行細則裡面所定的那這一次我們封網是直接就封了啦並沒有特別還要給他行政處分這些我們就跳過去了"},{"start":7471.824,"end":7494.699,"text":"所以經過這個事情之後而且我看在4月15號我們部長接受中央社的採訪你也有講說坦承這個兒少性剝削防治條例這個程序真的是太冗長那而且又針對我們剛剛前面講的這些事情這樣發生也凸顯在第一時間我們沒有一個完好的機制去做處理所以說"},{"start":7495.8,"end":7522.594,"text":"部長也說要修正,是不是針對這幾個部分已經提出一個完善的修正?我們在這一次的建議條文裡面有,已經有處理這個,那到時候的話,如果下個禮拜我們進入到主條審查的時候,也許我們就可以看得到這個我們的主張是怎麼樣來做處理,因為這個的確會有兩個問題必須要去處理,第一個就是剛剛委員所提到的"},{"start":7523.374,"end":7543.279,"text":"這目前的話到底有多少這種網站,事實上沒有經過檢舉,我們是不知道的。第二個,縱然我們這個處理的也把它封網了,它可能換個網域它又復活。那這種情形出來的時候,如果我們沒有辦法就主動去做這種巡查的話,我們也無從知道。"},{"start":7543.979,"end":7566.83,"text":"那結果就是等於說對他來講那個成本很低嘛換個網域繳沒多少錢就可以對所以今天也是跟部長還有衛福部我們講我們今天這個事情發生了但是我們一定要去探討為什麼在第一時間沒有辦法去做處理而且針對我們看我們五年保護服務師我們對這個預算編列還有原額擴編的情形"},{"start":7569.912,"end":7594.993,"text":"我看我們預算這5年也是年年增加這原則也是年年擴編表示我們大家對這個事情還有我們對保護服務師可以說是非常重視而且有很大的期待那我們今天在立法院我們一定要好好的來替我們民眾把關也希望跟衛福部我們一起來為我們人民好好做事那基本上明明"},{"start":7595.653,"end":7607.885,"text":"已經沒有做好我們現在發現我覺得我們就應該要儘快雖然亡羊補牢為時已晚可是至少還可以把一些沒有處理完善的情形好好的去把它處理好還有後來我們針對因為這次這個"},{"start":7615.267,"end":7634.053,"text":"而造這些的事情的發生那違反的影片的發生我看了一下我們衛福部有針對現影像被害人權益保障我們這個權益保障的說明辦法我這邊也建議一下因為我那時候想說去了解一下我看了一下這個裡面這個說明辦法有50幾頁"},{"start":7639.915,"end":7655.646,"text":"兩萬多個字而且裡面全部都是一大堆的法條我說實在話這個喔如果說以一般的被害人你要他這個好像在給他上課要去考那個律師一樣這個法條一大堆一般的被害人他"},{"start":7656.306,"end":7675.237,"text":"要去尋求保護、輔助、求助,結果看這些法條我覺得這真的是對他們太困難了,是不是可以針對這部分去做一些淺顯易懂的事情,希望這位夫婦針對這部分再好好幫我們研議、好瞭解、好好處理一下。」"},{"start":7678.083,"end":7679.384,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請薛部長,同時也請張秀恩司長"},{"start":7711.668,"end":7729.897,"text":"請張師長雖然還有一個月左右的時間部長繼續辛苦因為其實保護民眾的所有的工程或者是事情真的是也沒有所謂可以休息的時間就麻煩部長還有同仁們繼續努力"},{"start":7731.158,"end":7754.659,"text":"那今天要跟部長來討論的就是有關於主題就是如何針對健全這個高齡者受暴的防治機制那早上也聽了部長的簡報另外如果時間夠我們希望能夠多瞭解一下臺灣目前在推這個五管人生到底有沒有什麼問題或者是成效的部分那我們先看一下這個健全高齡"},{"start":7755.76,"end":7771.462,"text":"者受暴的應驗跟防治的機制。」我們也知道家有一老如有一寶那對於兒童是我們國家未來的主人翁所以我們都很希望不管是年長者或者是"},{"start":7772.143,"end":7786.7,"text":"兒童們都能夠用社會的力量來提供良好的一個安全的生活環境讓他們不管是在生活當中或在成長當中都能夠有很好的一個保護讓他們免於各種可能帶來的風險"},{"start":7788.061,"end":7811.528,"text":"那我們也知道其實過去這五年來這個老人受暴的這個通報率成長了52%而且在今年的2月3號那時候可能是為了因應春節的關係所以這邊委員會特別把這樣受通受內的這樣的這個受暴的這些訊息傳遞給民眾們"},{"start":7813.729,"end":7830.02,"text":"那看起來主要原因之一就是可能這些老人在受暴這個成因分析裡面好像跟不管是照顧啦或者是經濟依賴是有一些關係的所以這邊想要了解的就是"},{"start":7831.101,"end":7845.817,"text":"通常如果這些施暴者又是照顧者的話那到底我們這分析的這幾個這麼多的案件裡面這樣的百分比是多少那如果有這樣的狀況的話那他跟季節性"},{"start":7846.858,"end":7865.543,"text":"我們看到就是好像春節就會比較擔心就會提供民眾做一些參考那如果不是季節的話這個案件是不是有受到因為會季節造成的這種風險是比較低的有沒有相關的內部的這些分析可以提供給我們做參考"},{"start":7867.871,"end":7891.683,"text":"這裡面大概有一些數字以去年來講的話老人保護案件是大概2萬2540件那其中這一個直系血清悲親屬作為施暴者的話大概又佔55%就是說子女或者是說孫子女那對老人施暴的大概就佔了55%"},{"start":7893.684,"end":7898.506,"text":"其次親密關係辦理夫妻之間賺26%其他家庭成員14%非家庭成員5%所以有時候我們會覺得說那是不是像那種趙夫妍"},{"start":7922.459,"end":7933.848,"text":"外籍看護會不會比較容易有這種案件?其實不是,是自己的子女是最多的"},{"start":7936.11,"end":7950.339,"text":"所以我們有時候也會在網路上看到一些影片就是這些高齡者是怎麼被施暴的我們的覺得替他們很擔心那也覺得這樣的作為真的是不應該"},{"start":7951.74,"end":7973.221,"text":"除了相關的行則以外,我們也期待多瞭解一下。」那剛剛部長也提供了一些訊息告訴我們說這個就說質疑血清背清宿或者是說這個親密關係通常會是同住啦同住的會比較多施暴的這種現象"},{"start":7974.022,"end":7995.145,"text":"那他當然其實有些是因為老人家的失能的狀況或者已經有失智所以他沒有辦法配合照顧者的一些要求照顧者如果本身在這方面的知識也不夠的話那他就走起來了"},{"start":7998.187,"end":8021.153,"text":"就會出現這種動作所以為什麼會這一些就是說同居的這些家屬的話比例會比較高也是有原因的是是那剛剛有提到那個季節性就是說在一年裡面有那麼多那麼長的時間那會不會說在哪一些季節的時候特別容易出現這樣的狀況"},{"start":8022.713,"end":8038.6,"text":"議決是比較不會啦,但是其實像不管是哪一種情形的家暴,我們發現都是那個節慶的時間發生的,所以連假也不要休太久。"},{"start":8040.201,"end":8065.315,"text":"OK所以照顧者其實他也很需要有另外的方式來放鬆他在照顧的過程裡面帶來這種相對的壓力所以如何能夠提供這個照顧者好的另外的適應方式也可能要麻煩這邊因為這個策略的確是非常的不一樣我們如果知道他的可能成因的話所以下面要討論的就是那我們有哪一些作為可以讓我們"},{"start":8066.636,"end":8089.976,"text":"在面對這種年長者受到施暴的時候因為我們將來都有機會變成一個社會的年長者當然我們不希望需要那麼多的人來照顧我們可是這很難避免之下如果我們現在可以能夠有好的應用措施或作為的話希望能夠保護更多的年長者那我們可以看下面這一張"},{"start":8090.817,"end":8109.928,"text":"到底我們有沒有辦法用現有的或者是更好的一些軟體應用程式等等的來讓至少可以知道說當這個施暴者對我們的老人家提供或者是造成這種身體上的這些或者語言上的這種施暴的時候我們如何能夠提早來應應"},{"start":8111.965,"end":8122.584,"text":"這部分的話其實是這樣子,如果說有一些軟體應用程式或者一些科技的方式的話,通常他很難用在自己的家裡"},{"start":8124.161,"end":8146.959,"text":"就你如果是在機構裡面照顧機構裡面或者說社區的像說這個日照中心這一類的話也許還做得到但是從我們的統計來看的話親密關係或者是家屬之間的施暴是最佔多數的那這些的話在在"},{"start":8148.24,"end":8161.477,"text":"等於說這些科技的東西的話就比較派不上用場所以我是認為可能最重要的是要讓這些照顧的家屬讓他們有知道說"},{"start":8162.99,"end":8192.618,"text":"其實政府長照2.0是有提供一些方法可以來協助他們的這些並不是照顧這些老人家並不是你唯一就是說依靠你這一個家屬唯一的一個方法要讓他們知道說他們有地方可以來求尋求幫助或者尋求協助我覺得這才是最重要的"},{"start":8193.098,"end":8211.528,"text":"是所以我們很希望這是一個好的照顧網絡不只是各個單位做自己的事情而是希望碰到問題的時候有更好的思維模式不管從網絡網絡的合作啦或者是在跟社區整體的去保護所有社區的居民包括我們這些年長者"},{"start":8213.21,"end":8230.103,"text":"謝謝那我們也在針對武館人生也希望多了解一點點因為時間的關係我還是想了解因為我們衛福部其實在幾年前就開始三年前兩年前就開始希望能夠讓這些留置鼻胃管的"},{"start":8230.623,"end":8256.044,"text":"民眾有機會把這個管子拔除,重新享受它當為一個人的時候,可以從嘴巴、從口來禁止食物。」那到目前為止,其實好像我們所看到的成效還是有一些限制啦,因為從11年6月1號開始執行到目前我們去了解的只有200件左右,透過健保的申請。"},{"start":8256.824,"end":8275.339,"text":"那似乎這個量是有點跟當初的預估可能會有很大的落差那不知道目前在執行上有碰到哪一些的困境或者是需要重新提出來檢討的部分我想這部分的話當然健保如果能夠提供一個適當的誘因應該是有幫助的也就是說"},{"start":8279.568,"end":8295.194,"text":"你放置鼻胃管的原因是照顧比較方便嘛就直接用這個Liquid Art就直接灌食那這樣子的話對照顧者好像是比較方便但是對於這一個受照顧人來講的話"},{"start":8299.535,"end":8318.421,"text":"他就失去了這個咀嚼啦等等吞唸了這一些的功能恢復的一個機會所以這兩者兩者的話要去做一些平衡啦也就是說其實我們如果要把柱比位管這件事情健保要提供一個"},{"start":8319.541,"end":8333.469,"text":"一個誘因,這樣拔儲之後的話,照顧者仍然不會覺得說要去餵食是一個困難的事情,倒不如直接灌食是比較方便,要讓這個狀況是扭轉。」"},{"start":8338.032,"end":8356.929,"text":"所以我們期待部裡面也有更好的配套措施來讓我們這些查筆位管的民眾有機會透過大家的努力把這個筆位管拔除那同時有更好的生活品質好那謝謝部長好謝謝好謝謝王振旭委員我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":8398.131,"end":8402.108,"text":"議員會議員會議員會議"},{"start":8656.118,"end":8678.387,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8979.302,"end":8997.037,"text":"現在繼續開會請林淑芬委員發言主席各位大家午安是不是還是請我們這個薛部長請薛部長委員好"},{"start":9004.845,"end":9017.094,"text":"部長,我們這個兒少性剝削的這個防治條例,其實現在大家去年1月就修好了,現在才回過頭才發現說支付關攬、支付對價關攬,這個犯罪樣態根本沒有放進去"},{"start":9022.438,"end":9024.098,"text":"全體委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、國家通訊管理委員會、"},{"start":9044.804,"end":9066.573,"text":"開刀房裡面的病人被偷拍所以我們現在很高度的關注是因為性影像的拍攝、製造、偷拍等等很多這種對人權侵犯、對人身侵犯程度來講相當高的這種樣態其實都是以販賣盈利散播為目的"},{"start":9067.734,"end":9093.394,"text":"所以他們動輒到時候承認的時候說這是我自己想要拍下來留念自己觀看其實我們都開始覺得說背後很不單純所以由此可知以性犯罪的樣態來製作這個性影像的網頁網站或盈利行為應該非常嚴重就像我上一次就說的美國就有一個調查"},{"start":9094.295,"end":9099.798,"text":"美國這個兒童性剝削通報系統 的統計發現從2019到2022,美方偵測兒少性剝削影像來自臺灣IP的通報數量成長2.3倍,從3萬到7萬所以凸顯了性剝削影像近年在臺灣的氾濫程度而現在我們要講的是,不只是未成年兒少的影像"},{"start":9119.969,"end":9148.335,"text":"包括成年人的這個性犯罪影像都是以這類的樣態為居多所以我們真的想台灣到底是怎麼了怎麼了那我也上次也講說土法不足以自刑你們今天大家都講很多但我為什麼要講大家都把責任丟到立法院來立委你要不要加重期刑立法院你要不要加重期刑土法只有加重徒刑"},{"start":9149.315,"end":9177.07,"text":"無效啊!這就不是跟立法院說的叫行動、社會管理我現在為什麼講說修法可以阻嚇這個犯罪嗎?要有一些技術方面的資源才有可能啦技術方面的資源你講的意思好像是講警政署但因為今天警政委員而已所以我也就我就算了跟他們講在這裡也無效現在"},{"start":9179.111,"end":9186.715,"text":"一個警政委員隨時等著要外派出去當官的而已,當地方警政單位的局長而已,所以我就不講了。」但是我們講說你說要技術上的支援,去年11月8號婦女救援基金會在婦女和性別議題的政策研討論壇當中就說性影像聯防的四個法修訂後的建議,不是只有法律修訂啊,"},{"start":9207.367,"end":9210.129,"text":"他講偵辦人員就是警政單位的偵辦人員相關經費器材不足偵辦困難且耗時間沒有跨縣市的專責人力都是多項都是監辦而且沒有專責人力都是這個監辦以外連專責單位也沒有"},{"start":9224.401,"end":9250.77,"text":"副、右、對的偵辦經費也很少然後專業的網路人員經驗傳承也沒有辦法因為這個很多第一線的承辦人員他們對法律的認識和適用有待加強等等啦包括網路偵查這個境外的網路要下架對散佈匿名行為的人要起訴定罪這個在技術上都很難以外"},{"start":9252.07,"end":9276.671,"text":"在2021年臺灣公共行政和公共事務所聯合會暨國際學術研導會的議程裏面他們討論到兒童及少年性剝削防治機制的現況與困境與對策裏面也一再的講專業辦案的專業能力仍有不足的地方而且警察機關跟網路業者的協調合作機制未完善化而且"},{"start":9277.873,"end":9288.244,"text":"網路兒少遭受性剝削犯罪的犯案手段推陳出新不義防治違反兒少性剝削防治條例的量刑低起訴也低"},{"start":9292.329,"end":9319.358,"text":"那我現在在講說到底有多低?到底量刑有多低?起訴率到底有多低?圖法不足以自行,你這個修法到底有沒有用?從去年才大修過,我們就比較一下,去年1月通過,2月15號施行新的,就是增加了39條,連無故持有都要從行政法變成刑法。"},{"start":9320.518,"end":9337.045,"text":"那36條的使兒童或少年被拍攝自拍或製造性影像這個提高了行程從3年到7年變成3年到10年嗎那我現在看第一個表格我現在不懂因為你們上個禮拜來報告"},{"start":9339.39,"end":9348.815,"text":"衛福部統計拍攝製造兒童或少年為性交或猥褻行為的物品2022年1971件、2023年2903件這是你們統計資料嘛,上個禮拜提供的法務部那裡為什麼只有692件跟767件"},{"start":9364.555,"end":9386.702,"text":"違反36條的到地方法院一審判決的件數590跟688我現在不懂你們統計數據以2023年為例明明就是拍攝製造兒童或少年為性交或猥褻行為的物品就違反兒少剝削條例的第36條的"},{"start":9388.422,"end":9399.066,"text":"你們統計是2900件為什麼到法務部地檢署偵查終結的人數是767件起訴了498767裡面起訴498為什麼落差這麼大衛福部的統計是有來做申訴到通報的"},{"start":9416.069,"end":9416.549,"text":"案件室 。 。"},{"start":9439.649,"end":9450.233,"text":"兩千九百件到法務部地檢署辦理偵查終結人數剩下七百六十七人"},{"start":9460.749,"end":9489.484,"text":"跟委員報告因為我們是地檢署說案是以被告的人數做計算我們不曉得衛福部這邊過來的是一個統計基準你們是用被害人他也是人數啊我們是被告人數被告這個又不是告訴哪一論罪這公訴罪每一件每一個人數每一個個案當然會有可能是一件數個人啊但是但是"},{"start":9490.7,"end":9518.913,"text":"到最後怎麼會大幅縮水也不至於大幅縮水縮水所以若見照你所說是每一個人都拍了好多個喔每一個人拍了五個四個喔每一個都是犯罪行為是累犯而且不斷的在重重複犯罪的根委員報告一個被告他可能有很多的一個被害人所以在統計上面衛務部過來所以這些人都很可惡了來沒關係那法院來"},{"start":9520.188,"end":9537.103,"text":"今天是司法院副庭長每個人如你所說受害人都很多人的話到地方法院一審裁判件數含無罪的含無罪的767人到最後是688件"},{"start":9546.527,"end":9570.373,"text":"含無罪的這數量也少了767變成688這可能原因是什麼?是委員好跟委員報告我們法院裁判依照這個兒少腺波穴防治條例36條我們的統計數字是確實是688沒有錯我知道啦我在問你說為什麼從767變成688692變成590"},{"start":9577.352,"end":9602.545,"text":"都少了很多欸對阿為什麼因為這裡面還含無罪的也在裡面每個案件怎麼到一集一集上去人數也少了這為什麼阿我現在在問你們阿我跟委員報告我的瞭解是我們這邊的688是指裁判的件數"},{"start":9604.506,"end":9619.015,"text":"就是說我們說檢察官起訴之後法院經過法院裁判的件數是六方好那我知道了OK那司法院你先回首現在我要問法務部下一張這個表格為什麼我講這個呢"},{"start":9620.851,"end":9647.123,"text":"可以看得出來2019年到2023年違反兒少性剝削條例的案件數是不斷的增加108年是215件到112年是767件可是在這種案件逐年增加裡面我們非常不了解的是起訴率從2019年的76.3的起訴率到現在下降 逐年下降到64.9"},{"start":9648.644,"end":9653.066,"text":"主年下降,76.3變成67.3變成63.4變成62.3最後變成64.9還起訴的比例其實主年上升從108年的2.3%的還起訴到現在是4.0不起訴的比例也是主年在攀升10.2的不起訴到18.5"},{"start":9676.488,"end":9678.77,"text":"難道是警察辦案每一件都瑕疵這麼多嗎?為什麼這樣子?這個數據和人民的情感和社會的觀感和我們輿論的觀察"},{"start":9687.506,"end":9714.846,"text":"差很大我發現我們移送了這麼多然後呢起訴率在下降還起訴率和不起訴率在增加這是為什麼你也解釋給我聽看看跟我們人民的觀感是相反的跟委員報告檢察官不管是起訴不起訴還起訴其實都是個案上他的一個證據判斷這個部分我們那我可不這麼認為我舉黃子佼的案例來看他無故持有"},{"start":9715.746,"end":9743.328,"text":"那他這個東西是緩起訴緩起訴你們的理由是說他是出犯而且避免受害女子在審判過程要受到二度傷害決定給予緩起訴而不是輕重但是因為社會輿論之後你們現在才要求這個以未完備偵查所以要再去刑偵查我的意思是說我們就去年修法後就持有就要刻以刑責了"},{"start":9744.449,"end":9756.203,"text":"可是沒有用,我們才持有七步誒,我們修法去年修法一月就修好了,修法的目的就是要針對持有的人一定要刻意行責,這個是我們社會的共識、立法院的共識而修好的法,你們檢察署"},{"start":9766.129,"end":9789.383,"text":"你們讓立法院的修法讓社會的輿論淪為笑話把他從行政法變成刑法結果你辦這個高度社會矚目的案件而且是一個持有七部未成年兒少性剝削影像的人你給他變成說還起訴"},{"start":9791.912,"end":9812.92,"text":"所以你說為什麼不起訴率降不起訴率提高還起訴率也提高比例還上升你看第檢署辦理違反兒少法第39條的無辜持有的因為是去年才修法嘛所以你來看38件起訴了38人起訴6人還起訴8人不起訴23人"},{"start":9818.158,"end":9836.774,"text":"這個是法律修得不好還是法律警察機關執法的時候過程沒有專業能力還是你們地檢署在辦案的時候輕輕放下連黃紫嬌這種高度社會矚目只有七步而且剛修法完高度社會矚目你們都還可以還起訴然後硬要跟社會對幹我這到底是什麼原因啊"},{"start":9844.397,"end":9862.363,"text":"還是跟委員說明緩起訴其實就檢察官認定上緩起訴還是最顯重大在檢察官心理上他還是一個犯罪行為那至於個案他到底我們當然知道啦緩起訴的加緩起訴的相加緩起訴加不起訴的31件38件他們兩個加起來"},{"start":9866.684,"end":9875.917,"text":"全部38件起訴才6件起訴加還起訴你認為還起訴還是犯罪樣態嗎?6加8還是小於不起訴的23"},{"start":9877.403,"end":9901.389,"text":"但是跟委員報告因為個案上都是以證據來認定他有所以我問你啊是警察機關大家都講修法啊重重量刑啊行政法改成刑法啊現在還要加入這個付付費對價關攔這種也要入刑法啊可是土法只有這個法有辦法法律也定了也修了也增訂了"},{"start":9903.291,"end":9904.753,"text":"是你們檢查地檢署的問題?還是警察機關有問題,連辦案的專業能力都沒有啊?"},{"start":9914.509,"end":9933.61,"text":"跟委員報告其實我們可以提升這個徵收的量能那這中間當然還涉及到有關於一些科技偵查方法還是因為沒有這個工具法案還是在立法院還是在行政院研議中那所以39條是無故持有一定是查到你的電腦裡面已經有"},{"start":9935.592,"end":9951.457,"text":"有影像人、什麼徵收工具,這種東西只要移送,結果你們還是給他不起訴,一定是電腦裡面或是家裡面收到,不管是DVD或是主機裡面下載的,一定是有了,才會叫無辜持有,結果到你們那裡是還起訴加不起訴,"},{"start":9959.6,"end":9970.547,"text":"林委員時間的關係是不是等於司長的說明?主席我再講一下這你講不清楚我告訴你這真的是真正的問題警察的專案辦案的年齡不足然後在檢訴裡面對這種的看法認為說可以還起訴的還起訴連黃子椒高度社會矚目違反我們社會的共識的你們也敢還起訴了"},{"start":9986.076,"end":9993.239,"text":"所以這個才是大問題來我再問一下就是說我們柯總昭臉書剛有一篇叫死刑是否違憲裡面講到立法者或造法者都應該要自我省失法律應該反映國民的正當法律感情不可以無視於民意更不應該以精英思維專斷主張以精英式的獨斷決定凌駕於民意共識之上不僅會對社會造成衝擊與割裂"},{"start":10016.028,"end":10045.074,"text":"更不利於我國的民主發展所以立法者本於立法的職權修法反映了國民正當的法律感情回憶民意而司法院從警察啦從地檢署啦現在到司法院法官現在動輒以刑法第59條刑法第59條司法院來看一下林委員因為等一下還要處理臨時提案我知道主席這個案子難道"},{"start":10045.794,"end":10048.076,"text":"不能稍微再談一下嗎?這個案子有被討論過嗎?我們在這裡第一次討論我們現在講說這個地方法院刑事一審訴訟被告違反性剝削第36條裁判結果就是從地檢署裡面已經起訴的然後送進去法院你自己看"},{"start":10065.592,"end":10066.293,"text":"從行政法修法以來,第39條"},{"start":10088.61,"end":10095.417,"text":"三十九條他的裁判件數是零當然理由很多啦"},{"start":10097.438,"end":10122.089,"text":"起訴六件,結果裁判數字是零,沒有判的結果,那就39條。但是我們現在要看到第36條。第36條,你起訴了,好不容易起訴了,送到地方法院去。地方法院法官動輒就說可以服,其請各民啊,大家給他動用刑法第59條,減輕其這個刑度的"},{"start":10128.213,"end":10144.01,"text":"1080、254件的案件動用了第59條減刑的有46件到去年671件大家都知道案件數逐年成長然後到去年給他動用減刑條例的超過三分之一是274件比例他"},{"start":10148.187,"end":10159.195,"text":"檢刑不斷的大家修法要從重結果在法院的判刑是每年递增的在使用檢刑條例從2019年的18%到一年上升到隔年是28%的檢刑再到110年是32%的檢刑到111年"},{"start":10171.484,"end":10197.184,"text":"這種利用兒少製造影片然後在這種大家講要加重期刑的時候他還不斷地減刑到去年減刑的比例高達41%委員我們是不是到這個主條的時候我們再來討論這跟主條有什麼相關這個我講的叫土法不足以自刑嘛我們今天在這裡立法院重重重演主條再加嚴"},{"start":10198.985,"end":10224.337,"text":"可是司法院、地檢署、到警政單位這種辦案的態度這種不斷的檢刑、然後還起訴、不起訴這樣下去的話這個傷害國民情感然後在這裡讓立法院的修法淪為笑話好啦,我就說這樣保證你最後有什麼話要說的,你敢不敢"},{"start":10228.929,"end":10235.03,"text":"主席,我們開會都很早就結束了,我們可以開會開到下午五點,以前的衛生委員會開會都開到下午五點了。二輪,第二輪,第二輪發言我可以等,我現在可以結束我第二輪發言,登記。"},{"start":10254.315,"end":10279.526,"text":"還是給部長說了算就好了?這有道理的啦,這就是牽涉到我們的整個司法制度我剛剛講的有沒有道理?這個是有道理,是不是問題?也是一個問題之所在,但是真正的原因背後的原因可能還要再更深入的去分析了解"},{"start":10280.438,"end":10299.531,"text":"分析原因,大家在這裡雙手一攤束手無策,結果犯罪樣態、犯罪的案件數、犯罪的量不斷地增加,受害者未成年的一直增加,成年的也一直增加,然後成為台灣國家的國際形象受損,然後受害的人民越來越多"},{"start":10300.191,"end":10318.056,"text":"可能這一個,比如說剛剛委員提到的這一個用刑法59條來減刑的比例之所以會上升的話是不是我們立法立得不合,我們法律立得有問題一定有它的原因在,這還是需要再進一步去"},{"start":10318.476,"end":10339.005,"text":"不是啊,我們立法要構成要件明確性、罪責相當性、橫平性我們的立法有問題才讓法官這樣子動輒就啟動59條的減刑條款嗎?是我們立法院的立法有問題嗎?否則法官為什麼每個人事成的人都要減刑囉?好啦,謝謝啦,回去討論一下"},{"start":10348.749,"end":10372.867,"text":"好,謝謝林淑芬委員的發言。那我現在做以下的宣告,在楊瓊英委員質詢結束處理臨時提案,現在請李昆城委員發言。謝謝主席。我們請衛福部部長,還有這個法務部警政署金管會書發部。等一下都會問到。好。"},{"start":10377.932,"end":10399.659,"text":"部長好那請問一下這個按照你們的資料這個從去年8月中到今年的3月底這個衛福部關於這個非法性影像的收件總共2901件然後呢這個處理案件是767件成功率是26%那我先請教一下那剩下2000多件為什麼沒辦法處理勒"},{"start":10403.416,"end":10424.671,"text":"所謂的處理的成功是應該使得是說有到檢察官這邊做了沒有不是欸這個成案率是指這樣子嗎?成案率是指說這個下架非法影像的還沒有到這一個我知道我知道對對對所以那個是成案率啦對啊我另外一個說齁"},{"start":10425.813,"end":10440.174,"text":"為什麼這個收件有2900件,但是你們只處理了767件,那剩下2200件勒?這點落不到業者,那還說業者還不下架?因為剛剛講2000多件的話,那是有申訴進來的,但是"},{"start":10440.735,"end":10458.253,"text":"後來有一些我們去查找不到影像也有說網址是無效的等等這些所以真正找得到網址也是這個影像可以來做比對的這個部分變成是767件"},{"start":10460.475,"end":10481.169,"text":"所以其他2200件是無法呈案的你說找不到網址不是說因為他是申訴嘛是民眾的申訴案件進來好那這個齁過去的這個封網的條件有兩階段第一個是業者不配合另外一個是無法聯繫到業者才能封網對不對那我看你們這一個報告裡面說齁修法的方向"},{"start":10481.949,"end":10505.289,"text":"有要精進,那可以請這個部長說明一下嗎?就是說你們行政處分下架的實現要怎麼樣去縮短流程然後必要時候採取限制接取的方式那這個比較明確的方向是什麼?第一個就是說要封網因為本來這類型有兩種一種的話民眾申訴是個別的一個影像或者是錄影"},{"start":10506.71,"end":10523.421,"text":"那這個在不同的網頁、不同的媒體上面都有可能出現所以這個必須要用下架的方式那另外一種是網站有一個網站專門在做這個提供這種好那我們就講創新私房好了啦"},{"start":10525.042,"end":10537.274,"text":"所以這就是一個網站,如果是屬於網站的話,我們希望未來當我們查到有這種提供兒少的影像我們就直接封網"},{"start":10538.052,"end":10560.259,"text":"就直接封網?你們要怎麼直接封網?你們還要再跟這個速發部再去請他們再封網嗎?那要不要經過這個法院的程序?沒有,就以預防性的這種理由就直接把它封網所以過去的話還要經過這個法院去申請這個限制令才能交給速發部去做封網那現在不用了嗎?"},{"start":10560.839,"end":10586.2,"text":"沒有,就我們希望再來的修法就是這樣,可以直接等於說預防他的這種性影像的散播,所以我們直接就封網就直接可以請這一個速發部他們就進行這一個封網就對了那所以就是說你們發現說這個是這個性影像跟這個兒少性剝削有關係的就可以不用經過法院這道程序,直接你們認定那你們是哪個機關來認定"},{"start":10587.941,"end":10606.851,"text":"認定當然是衛福部這邊來認定衛福部有哪個單位來做認定保護師他底下有設一個性影像處理中心就是有他的認定所以你們直接就跟數法部來做處理就對了數法部接下來程序修法方向是這樣子嗎"},{"start":10607.851,"end":10624.018,"text":"是的,因為報告委員在4月19號上禮拜五,衛福部已經針對所有機關去做盤點,已經把相關流程做一個盤點,而且未來修法方向也擬定了初步的條文。就像部長他所講的方向,就行政處理就可以了,不用到法院端就對了。"},{"start":10624.959,"end":10642.938,"text":"報告委員動長機制有兩個,一個是法官那邊要去做,另外一個就是行政機關的,那現在我們處理是行政機關的部分,那行政機關部分它的條文大概法務部的條文大概有幾個,就是直接通知所謂四個,一個是數位部,另外一個是通傳會"},{"start":10644.139,"end":10656.944,"text":"因為通訊傳播委員會負責所有ISP業者另外一個是教育部負責所謂的學術教育網路另外一個是IASP業者就是所謂的真正的網際網路接取服務提供者所以他現在條文大概出理如上跟這四個單位來做這個封網的通知嗎?"},{"start":10662.146,"end":10685.078,"text":"不是,是由衛福部整個來...對對對,我說衛福部來通知,是影像處理中心來做通知就對了那這個運用網路科技,主動查查,這也是衛福部的工作嗎?目前的話,我們是有這一個條文,我們希望說有能夠有這種法律的授權但是實際上執行的話,也不一定就是由衛福部來執行"},{"start":10686.618,"end":10713.072,"text":"如果說警務署那邊有這種技術有這種單位的話其實由他們來做也可以時間有限我再問一個現在就是按照媒體他們所公布的一些訊息他說這個創意司法有80名的高級會員然後呢這個80個人還包含醫師、老師、工程師還有軍警我不曉得這個法務部或是這個警政署有沒有相關的資料"},{"start":10715.788,"end":10725.856,"text":"是媒體所披露的高級會員80人,那包含上次,如果是包含這個老師啊、軍警啊,這還蠻嚴重的,你們有相關的資料嗎?或是說有任何偵辦的進度嗎?"},{"start":10730.032,"end":10756.433,"text":"跟委員報告,現在有關於剛剛委員垂詢這件事情,一地監視已經在偵辦中。對,那的確有這件事情就對了。還在偵查中。還在偵查中。好,那我在金管會也有來啦。就是說,現在就是金流要怎麼去斷啦。因為它現在,這一個它是等於是一個性剝削的產業啦。然後呢,它也現在這個也使用這個所謂的泰達幣來加入會員,甚至升級都是用這個虛擬貨幣。那接下來這個金流要怎麼斷啊?"},{"start":10761.283,"end":10786.174,"text":"報告委員,我們金管會的部分本來就要求這些跟我們完成法律的聲明這些平台,那他們必須要沒有去登記你們這個法律的聲明,這不可能去登記啦我問一下法務部或是說警政署,關於金流這部分要斬斷這部分有沒有什麼具體的計畫?"},{"start":10790.046,"end":10805.641,"text":"金流這部分,因為他這個查到80個人也是因為去查金流才查到這80個人嘛,對不對?跟委員說明,我們洗錢防治法有關於就金流部分就是有虛擬自產的部分現在要遵守法徵,要讓它落地等等這些有規範在這一個"},{"start":10808.403,"end":10826.991,"text":"我一聽大概你們還沒有什麼具體的做法他為什麼能夠死灰復藍而且人數越來越多因為他就是這個有這個會員有收費那會員收費呢那本身不斷提升影片還能夠升級那我意思是說前段是屬於這個影片下架的那後段你要去斬斷這個金流你斬斷這個金流他這個"},{"start":10829.132,"end":10849.699,"text":"不管是這個創意私房或是其他類似的網站,只能有辦法整個都斷掉啦。那我我我因為時間有限,那我是希望說你們就斬斷金、金流這部分的話,能夠再做一個比較具體的一個報告或是說明出來好不好?好不好?好,謝謝。好,謝謝主席。好,謝謝李昆城委員。接下來請陳亭飛委員發言。"},{"start":10859.872,"end":10862.84,"text":"、社會福利及衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、社會福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、"},{"start":10869.016,"end":10891.361,"text":"委員好部長好部長我想剛剛聽到你在討論這所謂蜂王的部分我想我先跟你討論一下現在的方法跟你未來要做的方法到底你要從哪一塊下去加強這才比較具體現在我們衛福部如果說"},{"start":10892.481,"end":10921.241,"text":"在整個性影像的部分接獲民眾的申訴我們才能啟動嘛 對不對我們現在是被動嘛我們並沒有主動去巡查這些相關的影像未來我們會主動巡查是這樣的意思嗎?有法令上的授權就是這一次要修嘛所以修了之後我們就可以有法令上的授權你們可以主動巡查"},{"start":10922.222,"end":10939.541,"text":"技術上面的話那其實如果說我們的那個警政署這邊可以做那就由警政署來做如果不行的話我們就委外來做沒有啊所以嘛我就說你們不能現在講的跟到時候做的又是"},{"start":10941.021,"end":10964.252,"text":"法令的武器給你們了,然後呢,你們又在各個單位職權調遷不合適,兩名這個太那個,那個太那個,結果最後沒有人處理。我現在就直接問,如果法令修了,武器給你們了,你們有法可以做了,那請問是誰要去諮詢?是警政署要去諮詢,還是你衛福部要去諮詢?"},{"start":10964.912,"end":10979.26,"text":"原則上應該是衛福部因為他要有法的主管機關衛福部本身沒有能力做這個所以我們想到的是說在短期之內可能要用委外的方式來做給我們技術的支援"},{"start":10980.16,"end":11006.457,"text":"但是未來如果說這個科技偵查法部長你這樣講這個關注的新聞跟關注的焦點你這麼講到時候真的修法之後你們拿不出魄力來我告訴你你們被罵翻了現在已經罵翻了所以這個你要很小心我覺得你不能再這樣的一個回答就是說今天如果修法之後"},{"start":11007.506,"end":11024.926,"text":"你們要在多久把這樣的一個所謂的搜尋機制建立好該給誰的該給衛福部能夠有這樣的一個主導權然後警政署加入或是你要委外委外要怎麼委外你這些修法的時候整個配套都要出來喔當然這個"},{"start":11026.167,"end":11037.19,"text":"部長然後再來現階段接受到申訴之後他還要去確認這些網頁資料有沒有涉及違法的影像"},{"start":11038.836,"end":11058.408,"text":"那以後修法之後就不用確立?要啊,就是由我們自行確立衛福部自行確立因為本來的話是這個確立有分層級啦比方說是地方政府還是還是中央政府那現在以後這一個部分的話確立就是由"},{"start":11058.928,"end":11087.306,"text":"有衛福部,直接確認。」好來我們現在的方式是我們拿到了涉及這個違法就像剛剛我們部長所說的過去可能一下子是地方政府、一下子中央政府未來全部因為過去就是我們拿到資料如果判定是的話我要求地方政府去要求業者下架那現在沒有了我們中央政府直接處理是這樣嗎?好直接處理之後"},{"start":11088.146,"end":11113.812,"text":"那我們如果看到業者不配合呢?我們就直接封網,沒有配不配合的問題。所以未來也沒有說像現在,我現在是在做對照,現在是你要求業者自動下架。未來我們修法之後是直接封網,技術有辦法嗎?"},{"start":11118.33,"end":11143.13,"text":"技術有辦法嗎?我們的技術沒辦法配合這一次的封網其實就證明說技術是有辦法的就是說我們給了這個言論處分那速發部接到之後的話他就直接做了所以這個技術上面應該是沒有太大的問題這是因為眾所矚目啊"},{"start":11144.269,"end":11154.305,"text":"所以你們非做不可啊對啊那如果未來未來這樣的問題產生不是眾所矚目不是媒體這樣一直追"},{"start":11155.433,"end":11174.242,"text":"這我們還是做,還是把它封掉啊。就直接封嗎?對,直接就封了啊。這個很重要喔。我們不希望未來,現在,衛福部都說因為我們的法有限制,所以沒辦法。好,修法之後。我跟委員報告,現在未來的話,那這個情形會這樣。"},{"start":11175.763,"end":11202.071,"text":"通常如果說我們封了業者抗議的話那就會走到所謂的行政救濟但是這種案子的話通常不會他就會變成說他又要去換個網域就重新復活所以他一復活我們就繼續封部長你很厲害你知道我下面就要問你這一個你直接封網之後他就換個身份再上那你有這個能力、人力"},{"start":11203.553,"end":11219.094,"text":"能力跟人力去做這樣的一個追逐遊戲嗎?有辦法嗎?而且如果說他今天他的IP位置在境外或是他用所謂的隱匿身份那這怎麼辦?"},{"start":11220.446,"end":11233.694,"text":"還是封啦,如果是我剛剛講的。不是,我知道還是封嘛,他還是封完之後,他去改變一個,然後你們再封。我是說你到最後有能力跟人力去做這個事情嗎?"},{"start":11234.753,"end":11237.414,"text":"非法,非法,非法,非法,非法,非法,非法,非法,"},{"start":11260.945,"end":11287.461,"text":"我們現在對於像黃子江他基本上已經持有在他所有的資料裡面他自己的一個相關硬碟都已經有7張所謂的未成年未成年的這個照片那居然我們現在就把他還其數號我們現在加重刑責未來嘛加重持有刑責好那請問"},{"start":11289.161,"end":11293.188,"text":"那如果加重最後端在法院這一端那該怎麼辦還是輕輕翻過該怎麼辦"},{"start":11297.151,"end":11322.037,"text":"你又說這都不是你啊所以我覺得這個就是一體性的問題我覺得這是大家在這整個公共議題當中要怎麼面對所以我們也希望從上到下包括我們法務部包括衛福部包括所有相關單位包括NCC數位部其實大家都是要整個全力來防堵為我們的下一代謝謝"},{"start":11324.209,"end":11340.071,"text":"好,謝謝陳婷菲委員發言。接下來請楊瓊英委員發言。主席,楊瓊英發言,再邀請部長。請薛部長。"},{"start":11345.6,"end":11363.71,"text":"委員好。部長好。部長,本席要跟你討論的是封網呢,那它歸宿卡卡的,到底問題卡在哪裡?偷拍的這個封網,那這個速度慢,歸宿慢,那它卡在哪裡?"},{"start":11364.343,"end":11373.229,"text":"法務部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、"},{"start":11395.563,"end":11423.21,"text":"預防綜藝治療,只要發現你們就可以先動手了。」這個是本席非常希望也非常讚許因為我們不能讓這個事件再發生那這樣的一個情況之下你們在禮拜五所討論的內容大概方向除了這個你們可以預備動作只要發現有狀況的時候可以先預防性的封網,是不是?對,差不多是這個意思"},{"start":11423.93,"end":11427.693,"text":"其他還有幾個重點,包括付費觀賞、現影像,以前都沒有入罪,現在我們打算這一個也框列進來"},{"start":11443.342,"end":11469.596,"text":"那剛剛提到的主動去封網之外的話還有一個就是說因為現在有兩種這種違法的模式一種就是剛剛講的那它是一個網站所以這用主動預防性的封網來做處理但是另外還有一個就是這種有人上傳到某一個媒體或者是平台上面去"},{"start":11470.737,"end":11486.016,"text":"這個就要讓他下架因為他可能是說在Facebook上面去PO出來也有可能說是在LINE裡面去PO出來那這個我們沒有辦法用封網的方式去做處理所以就要他下架那過去的話是他的程序太冗長"},{"start":11487.137,"end":11510.469,"text":"人家檢舉之後的話,我們還要去通知當事人,通知當事人的時候。那你們怎麼樣簡化這個SOP流程呢?對,我們這個部分都希望就是說能夠簡化。簡單來講的話,就是要處理掉那個送達的那個問題,電子送達的那個問題。我們歡喜聽到部長你剛才所說的,因為我們看到過去一年,那封網的只有9件。"},{"start":11511.169,"end":11520.152,"text":"法務部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會"},{"start":11532.955,"end":11554.243,"text":"出來,你們預計的時間?條文現在我們大致上都擬好,但是那個算是參考條文。對,請問你們的預估KPI裡頭什麼時候會送出?因為社會大眾很期待,什麼時候?應該這個禮拜我們大概就會把它讓衛環委員會裡面的委員都能夠知道。就這個禮拜?"},{"start":11555.584,"end":11570.618,"text":"就換句話說本集如此的解讀看對不對也就是在這個禮拜五以前你們會將你們這一段時間所討論的綜合之後這個條文您定搞出來對就建議條文"},{"start":11571.038,"end":11571.538,"text":"建議提案 。"},{"start":11592.97,"end":11614.548,"text":"我們這個家庭暴力防治法裡頭我們修法之後保護令也這個家暴安全法那很多人就說我如果去申請保護令他受到的二次傷害更大更大而且我也看到了這個數量也數字也讓我很難過去年有達到13萬件"},{"start":11617.23,"end":11645.02,"text":"二千一百四十七件的高峰通報家暴那這個是顯性的隱性沒有通報的還不知道多少那這個社會太痛苦了在這樣的情況之下目前我們是修法之後是親密關係它是包括婚姻、離婚、同居所以實際上大家處理的時候我們的訪視人員太辛苦了這個非常的複雜所以本期要請教"},{"start":11646.892,"end":11673.009,"text":"保護令我們是希望能夠真正得到保護但是也造成了很多的惡質傷害所以在這樣的情況之下呢家暴的安全網呢當然它包括了很多警政、教育、衛生、社政、民政、戶政勞工等等單位的一個整合因為本席在社會學跟社工系裡頭我們在好好在研討這個問題那你要結合了這麼多的單位"},{"start":11677.692,"end":11700.918,"text":"所以又面臨到這麼複雜的一個情境所以我們現在目前我認為目前的執行跟目前的法律還是沒有辦法保護這些人員而且他數量在增加數量在增加所以我具體的建議第一個你們整個流程要怎麼樣讓受害者可以申請保護令的人可以真正"},{"start":11701.858,"end":11723.668,"text":"去得到保護,我們有什麼堅定的方案?」這第一個。第二個,也就是你的訪視人員明明白白是不夠的。明明白白是不夠的。那部長,你應該要去盤點。跟剛剛我在司法委員會一樣,司法院的司法官二十幾歲給你跳下來,這太難過的事情。那平均案件那麼多,"},{"start":11724.708,"end":11750.942,"text":"所以怎麼辦所以他們盤點所需的人力他盤點出來那我也希望我們衛福部這邊你盤點你這個訪視的人員你到底要怎麼樣去增加這個非常非常的重要接下來也就是你的家暴防治中心你的主任、社工人員的一個培訓當你不足的時候你還有怎麼樣的量能可以加入"},{"start":11752.003,"end":11762.336,"text":"可以加入當然包括了社團但是你必須要去培訓你如果沒有培訓那就更模糊了所以本席在這邊具體建議這兩項請教部長"},{"start":11765.839,"end":11787.375,"text":"這部分的話其實沒有錯啦這整個人力必須要去做盤點因為這些社會安全網包括在內的這一些部分的話其實是蠻複雜的那不過像這個保護鏈也就家暴防治的這個部分的話我想我們還是必須要把案件類型把它整理出來"},{"start":11788.475,"end":11812.525,"text":"謝謝,多久時間?你去盤點出來好不好?我們一起加油。真的,我看到我們訪視人員太辛苦了。你多久時間告訴我們?盤點,數位大眾,你們的需求?大概多久時間?沒關係,你告訴我。我本來想說一個月啦,但是一個月我就不在了。所以你要有所作為啊,我就等你這句話啊,對不對?"},{"start":11813.922,"end":11827.016,"text":"邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會"},{"start":11837.535,"end":11862.997,"text":"謝謝楊瓊英委員現在處理臨時提案總共有9案請一併宣讀臨時提案第一案衛生福利部於2024年2月統計所屬26家醫院設有放射診斷科共計20家醫院設有20個主管職務中其中10名由放射診斷科醫師兼任1名由醫事放射師兼任其餘9名由其他科別醫師站待基於視察視認"},{"start":11864.218,"end":11888.998,"text":"科主管一職應由相關專業人才擔任為原則,部立醫院更應作為全國醫療院所之表率,以增加相關醫事人員的專業認同。」提案人委員黃秀芳、王振旭、林月琴、蘇巧慧。第二案,因應COVID-19相關費用自2023年3月20日回歸健保之印,已造成健保點值有所下降,該年度最終編列公務預算撥補健保。COVID-19輕症門診"},{"start":11893.081,"end":11910.708,"text":"稀釋健保典值仍持續發聲,原建請衛生福利部持續關注2024年各季健保典值之變化,並邀請相關團體共同研議對策以穩定醫療品質與量能。」提案人委員黃秀芳、王振旭、林月琴、蘇巧慧。第三案,未減緩現有"},{"start":11912.889,"end":11929.925,"text":"為減緩現有護理人力短缺,行政院於2023年9月28日通過護理人力政策整備十二項策略計畫,其中之一護理人員夜班費獎勵利益良善,原建請衛生福利部於三個月內盤點各醫事人員人力情形,對於人力短缺者研議與"},{"start":11931.446,"end":11953.552,"text":"業班費獎勵,並將盤點及研議結果送至立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案人委員黃秀芳、王振旭、林月琴、蘇巧慧。第四案,為使相關制度能夠更完整,也讓過往可能漏接的個案受到應有裁罰,原要求福利部應請各地方設政機關向教育機關追溯行政法法第27條三年時效之內之校園調查報告"},{"start":11956.773,"end":11963.156,"text":"由社政單位重新檢視校園內調查屬實且未經兒少法裁罰之個案前述校園查證屬實但未經兒少法裁罰案件提供狀況與後續裁罰狀況之書面報告請於三個月內提供立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提案人委員林月琴、黃秀芳、劉建國、陳培瑜第五案考量當前全國醫院當中"},{"start":11982.566,"end":11986.609,"text":"僅地區醫院受到電費補貼,如此時難以解決整體醫療韌性受損之事實,是以決議速啟動對於各層級醫院辦理電價補貼之研議作業,事後並於二個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告。」提案委員陳金輝、邱振鈞、廖偉祥、楊瓊英"},{"start":12004.561,"end":12028.208,"text":"第六案考量防治兒童及少年遭受任何形式之性剝削保護其身心健全發展之政策必須嚴謹特決議要求最速完成死刑受費此後所可能對於兒少保護業務之衝擊評估並限其與一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝、邱振鈞、廖偉翔、楊瓊英第七案"},{"start":12030.309,"end":12053.892,"text":"為避免兒少性影像繼續透過上述非法網站字義傳播並有效斬斷其營運金流並反向追溯相關使用者,原要求金融監督管理委員會與警政署彙整目前追溯虛擬貨幣金流之措施,另對於中國大陸境內之金流,評估是否能透過兩岸共同打擊犯罪及司法互助協議平台。」"},{"start":12055.133,"end":12069.592,"text":"追查相關紀錄與使用者身份,另對以上措施不足之處,提供未來精進措施之規劃,於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。」提案人委員王育敏、陳金輝、廖偉祥、楊瓊英"},{"start":12072.964,"end":12095.519,"text":"立案為保障兒少身心健康,原要求衛生福利部就如何增加與改善目睹家暴兒少之輔導支持資源以及提高民間團體合作建置兒少領航員輔導支持資源中心之意願。」於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告提案人委員王育敏、陳金輝、廖偉祥、楊瓊英"},{"start":12097.7,"end":12102.482,"text":"第九案有鑒於托育人員專業訓練課程、托育人員在職訓練課程實施計劃、兒童及少年福利機構專業人員訓練實施計劃、師資及課程內容及教材編轉現存諸多問題,請衛生福利部於一個月內研擬前述課程計劃加入而略評估專業智能並明定時數"},{"start":12119.17,"end":12148.113,"text":"施資規定、課程內容及教材,請衛生福利部於兩個月內提出縣市訪市輔導管理如何統一之改善做法,供立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會委員審視以明確行政程序,請衛生福利部於一個月內調整額略數據分類方式,供立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會委員審視以明確行政程序。」提案人委員林月琴、連署人委員王振旭、黃秀芳宣讀完畢。"},{"start":12149.962,"end":12172.056,"text":"請問第一案行政單位有無意見?有關於第一案的話,大概可行性不高因為醫院裡面的放射診斷科的工作是包括要去打放射影像的報告"},{"start":12173.477,"end":12190.672,"text":"打報告這個一定是醫師來做的因為他是一個診斷的工作所以如果由醫師、放護師來做的話他就沒有辦法做好這件事情所以這部分的話我想可能不是很適當"},{"start":12198.945,"end":12209.398,"text":"提案的原則其實是這是一個原則我們希望如果當醫院本身有這樣的人才人力的時候就是還是盡量由這個放射診斷科醫師來"},{"start":12211.26,"end":12235.455,"text":"來處理,雖然他的工作量會比較大,不過如果以這樣的文字敘述的話,希望是一個原則性的提案,讓他能在執行上會比較能夠有所依據。」這個部分也跟各位報告,大概就是說這一個方設診斷科的主管"},{"start":12238.738,"end":12252.287,"text":"現在之所以說在有一些不利醫院裡面是沒有辦法找到的原因並不是說沒有醫師是因為他不是公職的醫師啦他是約聘部的醫師"},{"start":12253.496,"end":12271.989,"text":"邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會"},{"start":12275.612,"end":12296.261,"text":"所以我會建議就說是不是說我們就說研議就說讓這一個非公職醫師那可以來兼任這樣子會比較比較比較有幫助啦那這我們來研議看看同意是"},{"start":12298.604,"end":12315.584,"text":"那那個文字修正是這邊?好,那等一下文字修正之後再送到主席台確認。好。可以齁?好,那我們先第二案,行政單位有沒有意見?"},{"start":12332.341,"end":12356.932,"text":"第二案沒有意見第二案沒意見那就照案通過第三案第三案的部分我們建議從倒數第二行那邊對於人力短缺者原本是予以夜班費獎勵我們建議把它修正為對於人力短缺者"},{"start":12358.243,"end":12372.572,"text":"演繹予以獎勵方式把那個夜班費那個刪掉這樣會比較有一個更大的空間來處理這個部分好那委員有沒有意見同意後面就是獎勵後面加兩個字方式"},{"start":12373.171,"end":12394.768,"text":"好,那就照文字修正通過。好,那第四案。第四案,我們從倒數第四行,要求衛福部含請教育部就三年內校園調查屬實且未經兒少法裁罰知失對生不當對待案件,這個這個"},{"start":12397.31,"end":12411.726,"text":"已請社政主管機關評估依法裁處,並請將辦理情形於三個月內提供給立法院社環委員會。」以上文字。好,那委員有沒有意見?"},{"start":12412.667,"end":12435.693,"text":"我想要先說一下,我知道目前有工作上的困難,所以衛福部希望改成是調查屬實的才要移送,可是我還是要再次強調,之前在很多校園案件調查當中,其實岳勤委員有提過,很多案件可能有失失相互的狀況,其實我們當時是希望衛福部可以一併調查,可是我們考慮到工作量,我們目前就先針對"},{"start":12436.733,"end":12437.254,"text":"行政單位有意見嗎?"},{"start":12466.769,"end":12494.248,"text":"好,那就照案通過。第六案行政單位有沒有意見?呃,證照辦理。好,那就照案通過。第七案?第七案也沒有問題。好,那就,好,那就照案通過齁。啊,第七案,是金管會,是金管會法,呃,警政署。第七案?"},{"start":12498.311,"end":12522.924,"text":"招案通過好那第八案第八案是倒數第三行這個支輔導支持資源然後加強與民間團體合作於一個月內向衛環委員會提出書面報告好那委員會委員OK好那就照文字修正通過第九案"},{"start":12524.165,"end":12545.04,"text":"第九案分成三段第一段在請衛福部於年底前研議前述課程計劃然後第二段是兩個月是不是可以修改成三個月第三段也是在衛福部一個月我們建議修正為三個月內"},{"start":12546.521,"end":12570.452,"text":"嚴易調整額內數據分類方式。」那委員有特別要求結果要告知委員。我們正告辦理。委員有沒有意見?沒有意見。好。那就照文字修正通過。那臨時提案全部處理完畢。接下來請黃珊珊委員發言。在這邊做一個宣告。我們第一案。"},{"start":12577.93,"end":12591.961,"text":"我先做一個宣告,中午不休息,質詢到登記委員發言結束再休息。好,那委員那不好意思我先請他們,好那剛剛那個臨時提案的第一案"},{"start":12593.903,"end":12620.718,"text":"對我先確認一下就是基於事實請衛生福利部研議科署管剛剛部長有提到如果說現在在執行上有的確有他困境或者是無法執行的部分不然我們先測案好了那以後我們再來處理好不好好那就第一案就測案好那接下來請黃珊珊委員發言好的請薛部長謝謝主席請薛部長"},{"start":12625.522,"end":12654.187,"text":"委員好是部長我們上一次在這裡質詢我也看到你的報告裡面我很在乎的就是112年8月到現在你們受理移除的新影像有767件然後你們的報告一直說完成的只有665件成功率達到86.7%我一直很想知道剩下的那十幾趴到底是怎麼回事是他不移還是移不掉還是不知道"},{"start":12655.699,"end":12671.011,"text":"這個部分的話有一部分是因為我們之前的規範都是這個邀請地方政府來邀請地方政府地方政府沒有做還沒有完成還沒有完成所以要多久完成"},{"start":12672.096,"end":12699.631,"text":"地方政府怎麼可以不完成?我比較好奇的是它有實現嗎?然後為什麼它可以不做?我們是看到說113年3月31的時候我們統計是還有102件沒有完成但是到4月22的時候就增加了32件是已經移除所以有100多件還在架上"},{"start":12700.331,"end":12715.451,"text":"封網的有22件所以還沒有移植大概還有48件48件48件還在架上但是我們通報了還沒下架所以部長你覺得這個效率你滿意嗎?"},{"start":12717.068,"end":12730.067,"text":"當然做有待加強。」如果他已經被通報也明明要下架他48件還在架上我們在這裡開了這麼多次的質詢有什麼意義嗎?所以這48件我只需要知道什麼時候可以完成"},{"start":12731.195,"end":12748.813,"text":"我們會禁訴,如果他還在侵害我們的兒少,這件事情是不可以容忍的。如果已經經過衛福部相關的主管機關都已經通報到地方政府去,他還在架上,這件事情是沒有辦法向國人交代的。」"},{"start":12749.594,"end":12757.237,"text":"法務部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會"},{"start":12770.885,"end":12794.936,"text":"屏蔽,法院也准了,單單換個名字,第二天就復活了。」那我想知道這665件有沒有復活的狀況?還有你剛剛講的48件還活在上面的,這邊700多件加上你新通報的件數有沒有在追蹤,它還有沒有跟那個案子一樣,壯義私房的案子一樣重新復活?"},{"start":12795.996,"end":12812.585,"text":"跟我們報告移除下架是不會有復活的那個是網站才會是移除下架就是說我們要他他在那邊不復活了嘛他不會再復活了好所以不會再有了如果像創意私房這樣他是整個被屏蔽掉的目前剛剛講你也有很多件嘛"},{"start":12813.365,"end":12831.512,"text":"那一些有沒有再復活?這我們會再追蹤那部分是有22件22件他可不可能再復活?我們什麼時候追?追了沒?我們就必須要再追蹤所以還沒追因為我們這要主動去尋訪才看得出來"},{"start":12831.852,"end":12853.306,"text":"所以我沒有要求你全部尋我只要求你尋這些已經被你屏蔽掉但是他是不是換個名字再復活這22件給我們一個簡單的追蹤報告我們會盡量再追蹤這其實是為什麼政府已經在關心而且也通報到然後他竟然還可以繼續存在甚至也下不了架"},{"start":12854.006,"end":12876.542,"text":"這是讓國人沒有辦法接受而且要新聞鬧這麼大我們的訴發部突然間做得到讓我們嚇一跳所以顯然做得到以前沒想到現在要繼續往修法的方向走我們看到你的修法方向不錯但是這個裡面我想問一下部長我沒有考慮過像比照性侵害防治條例"},{"start":12878.124,"end":12894.879,"text":"將所謂的這些加害人尤其是兒少性影像數位性暴力的這些行為人我們考慮給他比照相關性侵害的應該說是被告好了加害人他做相關的處遇或者是強制治療嗎"},{"start":12896.422,"end":12921.238,"text":"這個是我們在這個是有這樣子的相關的一些所以新的法規裡面會增加這個行為人處於的部分嗎但是有一些這還是必須要做判斷有一些其實他在我們反社會人口為常的他這個治療是無效的也是無效但是我們要不要加入這方面的處於計畫寫在我們新要修正的法案裡面原來是任務 輔導教育"},{"start":12922.318,"end":12935.795,"text":"我們本來的法條裡面就有輔導教育是那對於他的這些後續不是只有輔導教育可能最後比較可能最後要強制治療強制治療可能也是不是要入法才行"},{"start":12937.16,"end":12961.192,"text":"這個可能還是需要再討論啦因為我剛剛提到強制治療它的效果可能不見得好但是我們如果連強制治療的機制都沒有就更沒有機會啦如果是那種輕度的認知認知不正確啦等等這些的話就是經由輔導部長我的意思是說如果有這種人我們不要掛一漏萬"},{"start":12961.832,"end":12980.328,"text":"我們少了這個制度就沒有機會但是有可能效益不好我同意但是我們增加了這個機會我是認為說以司法的方式去做處理會比較好司法處理是比較好因為這治療效果不好這等於是浪費這個社會的自由但是如果這些"},{"start":12981.008,"end":12997.516,"text":"需要協助治療的我覺得政府還是有必要讓他有機會得到這樣的協助就像酒飲跟毒飲不見得他一定要用強制的方式但是我們要給他這樣的選擇你懂我的意思嗎我們有這樣的選擇的機會那最重要的是"},{"start":12998.456,"end":13016.99,"text":"我希望在你修法裡面很清楚的是後續的剛剛講的這些需要追蹤的我希望一個星期把剛剛我所問的這些內容你們追蹤的計畫提供給本席謝謝好謝謝黃珊珊委員的發言接下來請何新淳委員發言謝謝主席黃昭文我們請部長請薛部長"},{"start":13032.533,"end":13048.572,"text":"本席也有提出這個兒少性剝削防治條例那其中我提的版本裡面有一點就是剛剛黃委員所提到的這個所謂的在這個強制治療要不要入法雖然你說這個強制治療不見得有效果"},{"start":13049.173,"end":13064.463,"text":"但是呢我的條款裡面是如果呢他是經判刑有罪那或還起訴處分者經評估還是經過專業的評估因為就像你講的這個有可能有程程度的不同"},{"start":13065.464,"end":13069.31,"text":"懲罰人員的身體、身體、身體、身體、身體、身體、身體、身體、身體、身體、身體、身體、身體、身體、身體、身體、身體、身體、身體"},{"start":13082.808,"end":13104.076,"text":"你支持嗎?我是認為該有這樣子的機制那我也尊重專業那我希望把它入法至於文字可以怎麼來斟酌我覺得這是可以在委員會討論但是這個方向我是請部長要支持"},{"start":13105.576,"end":13123.429,"text":"這第一個。第二個,在我的版本裡面,我們現行的條文是持有,就會有相關的這個行者,那我現在又加了一個,如果是用金錢或對價關係取得而持有的,更加加重,那這個方向部長你支持嗎?"},{"start":13124.069,"end":13142.221,"text":"這我支持因為這涉及到這種金錢的一種所謂的經濟行為的會是主要會是引導引導這種犯罪行為的增加我們常常看到有很多個案有一些青少女或者是青少年或者是兒童就是因為這樣子被誘導的"},{"start":13143.442,"end":13165.808,"text":"被利誘,他在身心心理狀況可能還不是很成熟的情況之下,他比較不會分辨,那有可能就受害了。」所以這個部分我希望部長要支持。那我第二件事想跟部長談一個制度是什麼?在上一次凱凱案的時候,事實上我有觀察,部長你知不知道現在全台灣的"},{"start":13167.349,"end":13178.655,"text":"中途家庭或者是寄養家庭的數目字是正在減少當中你知道嗎?就是因為為什麼?你認為呢?當然就是說願意做從事這一個工作的人也會減掉當然另外當然就是風險也高"},{"start":13191.823,"end":13217.378,"text":"是啊,所以我們如果把風險降低,那就是是不是能夠更系統化、更制度化、更專業化的來支持他們,或是給予相關的輔導嘛。那第二個,我們如何再重建這個中途家庭跟寄養家庭,希望能夠數字可以逐漸的增加,因為這牽涉到什麼?這牽涉到我們如何安置這些需要受保護的孩子。"},{"start":13218.551,"end":13234.248,"text":"這個部分的話其實是要好好去做思考目前為止我沒有看到衛生福利部對這個有什麼要思考這一個寄養家庭之所以減少這當然有很多的原因其中有一個就是說年齡層的問題"},{"start":13236.03,"end":13249.892,"text":"以現在的寄養家庭,他比較不願意去收那種很小的小孩子,因為他風險高嘛,寄養家庭其實是年齡的這些...那我們是不是要思考有沒有解決的對策?"},{"start":13252.147,"end":13270.036,"text":"所以說對於那種很小的小孩子的話目前呢送到保姆的系統也不是這個就是又是另外一個問題我就是想再跟部長討論所以我們現在有很多年紀比較小的年齡層比較小的我們呢是送到保姆端那保姆這一次凱凱恩就是保姆出了問題"},{"start":13270.816,"end":13291.328,"text":"那我想請教的是,那我們如果送給這些保姆,請他們來安置這些兒童,不管是短暫或是長時間的,除了金錢上的這個給付之外,那我們有沒有對保姆的專業要求?要不要受訓?要不要認證?保姆的認證是一般保姆的認證,我說針對這些需要被保護的孩子,被安置的孩子,"},{"start":13301.346,"end":13328.699,"text":"這個就是我記得之前在質詢的時候我曾經回答過就是全日拖啦如果他這種保姆一般來講的照顧的話都是日拖的那晚上就是回到自己的家裡面去那父母親是可以看得到的所以虐待的情形就會比較少但是你全日拖的話這種家庭基本上已經功能已經失去了"},{"start":13329.739,"end":13348.247,"text":"家裡的人也不會看得到,所以等於說整個全天候的都在這保姆的家裡面,那這樣子的話他的風險就會特別高,因此這種全日拖的保姆,他必須要有更好的一些訓練,更好的監督。那我們現在衛生福利部有沒有這樣的機制?應該我們會在"},{"start":13352.709,"end":13379.781,"text":"現在正在研擬當中嘛對不對就表示之前沒有嘛對啦你們現在就在研擬當中就是表示之前沒有嘛之前沒有的話那我們就是不管是社工人員也好或是地方政府的相關的承辦人員也好他不知道該怎麼辦那又必須要安置這樣的孩子所以他只能選擇他知道的他找的到的有意願的保姆送嘛那至於這個保姆到底"},{"start":13380.481,"end":13398.925,"text":"到底有沒有夠專業,到底有沒有認知到這個需要受保護安置的孩子的身心狀況,或是他有什麼特殊的狀況,那需要特別的照顧,這個保姆不知道嘛,這個地方政府也不知道嘛,社工也不知道嘛,所以我們如何制度性的去面對這個問題,解決這個問題,我覺得這個是我們衛生福利部要做的。」"},{"start":13403.966,"end":13430.441,"text":"好不好?那什麼時候你說年齡當中那什麼時候可以讓我們看得到草案?需要多久的時間?現在那個是在那個托育專法裡面要把這個放進來那托育服務法這個專法會跟那個兒犬法的修正大家一起需要多久的時間?目前應該是討論到最後了那可能快"},{"start":13432.357,"end":13451.23,"text":"已經在預告了已經在預告了已經在預告了好那我希望能夠盡速啦那而且呢在現在預告在未來公告執行之前我們現在針對去盤點一下現行有在承接這些安置兒童的這些保姆們我們如何去支持他們輔導他們增加他們的專業資能"},{"start":13454.412,"end":13470.278,"text":"才能夠好好的保護我們的孩子,那大家才能夠共好啊,而且大家才能夠提供一個相對雙方都安全的環境嘛。」是不是?好不好?部長,拜託,謝謝。好,謝謝何新淳委員發言。接下來請黃國昌委員發言。"},{"start":13479.482,"end":13491.068,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩有請衛福部部長、法務部的檢察司司長、司法院邵家廳的副廳長那個法官要上來協助也很好"},{"start":13512.853,"end":13541.185,"text":"二、三位好,是有關係,不亦問候。兒少性剝削的人數接接攀升當然這個是通報的狀況從2017年1060人到2022年我現在有的data已經到2280人了除了人數不斷攀升以外讓人最觸目驚心的是裡面拍攝製造兒童或少年性交或猥褻行為的物品這一種"},{"start":13542.725,"end":13568.921,"text":"樣態的違法太樣比例不斷的在攀升如果我們以2022年來講已經到了86%了相當高的比例都是這個類型的犯罪那衛福部也說了事實上我們看到人數不斷攀升比例再那麼高其實黑數還是很大因為牽涉到了被害人他是不是真的在目前的法律機制下有足夠的機制"},{"start":13570.422,"end":13586.234,"text":"讓他願意出來這真的是一件不容易的事情因為他可能會造成的是他自己的社會生活、既有的家庭生活、人際關係都會造成非常大負面衝擊的影響這個我們大家都了解"},{"start":13588.476,"end":13615.45,"text":"那接下來就是說我們目前持有兒少性影像的處罰沒有正當理由是一年以下有期徒刑從比較法的觀點來看我們應該是延續著日本的法律跟德國比跟美國比相對而言都是輕嘛那現在的問題來了就是說目前這樣子的法定刑從法務部的角度或是從行政機關的角度認為有沒有調整的必要"},{"start":13616.645,"end":13639.25,"text":"我們認為是有再調整的必要,不過也跟我們報告,這一個把它變成一個刑事責任還是在去年修的時候才接的是是是,來請法務部認為這樣的法定型有沒有調整的必要我們尊重權者機關,我們也贊同權者機關的就認為有調整的必要嘛,好來請司法院"},{"start":13640.41,"end":13649.83,"text":"你們之於支持依照性影像數量的多寡、被害人的年齡、內容、加害的程度、加害者的資歷、訂立不同的量刑基準"},{"start":13651.88,"end":13671.7,"text":"我們尊重那個有權責機關的來權責機關就你們啊量刑基準不是司法院嗎是那我們那個什麼還尊重權責機關我老天啊對不起我的意思是說這個量刑設定量刑的基準我們目前有在討論那個量刑的什麼時候討論得出來"},{"start":13674.135,"end":13697.593,"text":"問題很嚴重啊!速度要快啊!沒有關係啦!因為今天主席請邵家廷來嘛!沒關係把我的意見帶回去給刑事廳啦!這個事情絕對不能再拖二二一了!接下來第二個問題也是在網路上面造成非常多網友的困擾就是虛擬人物圖畫的問題嘛!"},{"start":13699.833,"end":13723.534,"text":"這個牽涉到我們在2023年修法的時候第二條的修法理由我全部都拜讀完了我看完了以後他造成了一個很大的困擾那個困擾就是虛擬的圖畫到底算不算規範的範圍當中那衛福部之前說要訂執法現在還有要訂嗎"},{"start":13725.018,"end":13744.731,"text":"沒有,現在大概就是我們會用一個解釋的方式來做出解釋什麼時候做出來?正在前半當中啦解釋內容是什麼?有幾個,第一個就是說實際真實人物的部分的話那當然就是不用說"},{"start":13746.252,"end":13765.12,"text":"那虛擬的部分的話,原則上是不管,但是有幾個,那個女真的、AI女真的要放進來。第二個就是說,如果它涉及到,比如說人社交啦,這個虐待啦,這暴力的"},{"start":13765.62,"end":13791.543,"text":"那這部分的話就回到刑法所以虛擬人物的創作不會在規範範圍當中嗎?對,原則上是不會動漫化的但我現在就要講得很清楚了就是說4月的時候李立芬次長好像有對外面表示說動漫的部分會依照違反刑法235條來加以處理這個是衛福部的政策立場嗎?"},{"start":13792.887,"end":13804.243,"text":"這是說他的內容如果有這種我的意思是說啦就是回到刑法對不會用兒少性剝削防治條例來處理是這是衛福部的立場嘛對來法務部"},{"start":13807.459,"end":13834.599,"text":"衛福部這樣子的立場法務部同意嗎?我們尊重權責機關的先停一下不要尊重權責機關啊因為犯罪事實啊移到法務部啊檢察官用什麼條文起訴才是大家關心的事啊這個不是說衛福部剛表明他們的立場嗎所以我現在問法務部的立場法務部要有立場啊這個可能會過成散布偽物品罪所以你們會不會用兒童性剝削防治條例處理"},{"start":13837.02,"end":13862.928,"text":"這裡要講清楚啊你真AI的話就沒有你真AI當然就不用講嘛動漫的部分會不會講清楚啊動漫的部分就回歸到刑法散佈猥褻物品所以不會用兒少性剝削防治條例法務部立場要講清楚讓所有的檢察官聽到是4-617號來處理"},{"start":13865.262,"end":13881.64,"text":"所以不會用兒童性剝削防治條例處理對不對?是嗎?政策立場上嘛當然個案上面可不可以拘束檢察官我老實講啦我作為法律人士有個超級大問號啦行政機關都這樣講但檢察官行使職權是獨立的啊"},{"start":13884.71,"end":13899.172,"text":"市長我有沒有講錯沒錯對嘛所以這件事情法務部要想清楚啊是你們在政策採取這樣的立場你下一步你馬上要去思考說那會拘束檢察官嗎這個問題很重要啊"},{"start":13900.563,"end":13921.434,"text":"法務部回去好好研究好不好要透過什麼樣子的手段我們可以合法的讓全國的檢察官知道這個條文使用上面要很慎重我們要打擊該打擊的人不要濫殺無辜法制作業上要怎麼做法務部回去好好研擬清楚好不好好我為什麼會講這件事情因為"},{"start":13926.257,"end":13938.269,"text":"用針孔攝影機偷拍兒少洗澡有沒有違反性剝削及防治條例第36條的規定?」衛福部說有嘛法務部說呢"},{"start":13943.345,"end":13966.952,"text":"法務部呢?有嘛!但問題來了目前實務上面我國法院的見解有的說有罪有的直接宣告沒有罪為什麼會宣告沒有罪?跟2023年的修正又有關係啦主席站起來但是這題很重要我趕快把它講完請司法院帶回去好好研究這不是開玩笑的"},{"start":13967.552,"end":13981.779,"text":"之前地方法院說在被害人不知情的情況下用針孔攝影機偷拍兒少洗澡這一定是違反兒少性剝削防治條例36條的規定也判有罪了高等法院也維持這樣的見解了但"},{"start":13983.035,"end":14005.669,"text":"最高法院110年度台上制1847號刑事判決,援引2023年修法理由以後的見解。」出來的見解是什麼來我唸給大家聽喔。被告以偵恐攝影機偷拍假女洗澡的電子訊號有沒有符合俄上性剝削防治條例第二條第一項第三款及紅條例36條的性影像"},{"start":14008.652,"end":14023.147,"text":"最高法院提出質疑發回了以後要高等法院好好注意發回以後發生什麼事情沒罪為什麼他在客觀上不是引起他人信譽的舉動或行為的猥褻行為"},{"start":14024.813,"end":14036.111,"text":"法官獨立審判我們一定尊重但當我們的司法實務上面出現了一人一把號各吹各的調甚至有的結論我們從保護兒少的觀點容我這樣講"},{"start":14040.695,"end":14067.005,"text":"難以接受啊難以接受啊這個實務上的動態喔衛福部也好法務部也好司法院也好要清楚的掌握要不然立法者在這邊立了半天結果法院判沒有罪放人大家都不知道這不是開玩笑的事情欸這個最高法院的見解接下來要怎麼處理要怎麼面對衛福部、法務部、司法院"},{"start":14068.223,"end":14094.443,"text":"你們召開一個聯合的會議討論一下好不好因為我覺得這件事情很嚴重啊部長您贊不贊成這在我們的核酸性剝削的諮詢委員會裡面我們就找這些單位議員法務部同不同意?同意司法院同不同意?同意要怎麼處理這件事情喔?趕快有一個解決的方法提一個書面報告來給大家好不好"},{"start":14095.612,"end":14116.029,"text":"一個月內可以嗎?可以。可以齁?好,謝謝。好,謝謝黃國昌委員發言。接下來請李燕秀委員發言。謝謝召委。我會請部長。請薛部長。委員好。"},{"start":14123.089,"end":14147.506,"text":"部長從長賜到部長期間其實過去這段時間我雖然有四年中間離開立法院但是其實跟您交手的機會跟您互動的機會其實非常多我們也希望上台下台其實我們高度跟身影其實都非常非常重要在這過程當中你經歷了COVID-19的疫情"},{"start":14148.606,"end":14174.272,"text":"其實也經歷了包括暴零案子等等暴零食堂的案子我覺得大家都經歷很多的挑戰但是經歷過挑戰之後我覺得大家都在看在很多制度面上我們有沒有調整得更好是重點部長那我也要跟您討論就是說有幾個案子其實上次我們有答詢過但是我覺得我還是要注意一下進度我們擔心說很多議題政策的推動會不會人去政席"},{"start":14175.412,"end":14194.04,"text":"包括第一個我們長期關注的包括衛福部公告的護理人員夜班的獎勵方案我想你非常清楚因為之前引起很大的風波因為醫學中心區醫院跟地區醫院那個實在是差太多每一班大夜班加1000塊地區醫院加800小地區"},{"start":14197.862,"end":14212.748,"text":"地區區議院加800,地區議院加600。」那後來有調整新的發言引起反彈之後因為物理人員流動會非常快心也非常的浮動那新發言已經出來了上個禮拜我在我財政委員會我特別問了主計長我說這個預算是1.13億"},{"start":14216.57,"end":14230.835,"text":"那上次我問衛福部的時候您回答我說這個還要再上簽但是後來我問主席長,主席長說錢都在那邊啊無論是義後的紓困預算或是你們自己的預算其實你自己動用就可以不需要再簽到他那邊了這件事情"},{"start":14232.916,"end":14251.83,"text":"因為我要代替所有,因為地區醫院很多護理人員都在關注這件事情,我也不希望,我想你我都不希望護理人員有太大的流動,對不對?所以這筆錢到底什麼時候會下來?目前我們本來是要希望能夠動用200億的公務預算補助的"},{"start":14256.013,"end":14274.152,"text":"但是現在就是我們原先預估的27億27億的這個月班費第一階段那這部分的話算起來會有剩餘所以大概可以cover這1.3億所以什麼時候會應該最近那個健保署要簽上來給我了"},{"start":14275.94,"end":14284.907,"text":"這禮拜有機會嗎?一、兩個禮拜之內好不好?一個禮拜之內我們馬上簽出來謝謝部長第二個我關注的議題其實就是有關我今天其實有聽到其他委員在問這個議題就是有關電價上漲對醫療院所的衝擊"},{"start":14301.36,"end":14322.896,"text":"特別對於小型的醫療診所偏鄉還有一般的醫療診所其實都有很大的衝擊那上次在跟在院會的時候答詢的時候你們有在研擬一些方案那現在行政程序上到底討論到哪個進度到底有沒有機會因為電價漲其實後續的成本整個都在漲還不只是"},{"start":14323.856,"end":14347.345,"text":"診所長而已所以部長因為這件事情在衛福部這邊是比較沒有著力的點因為我們沒有預算沒有補貼的這個電價的預算據我所知在行政院討論的時候他是打算用要補貼給台電的一千億裡面去處理因為包括一些"},{"start":14348.726,"end":14352.989,"text":"社會福利及衛生福利及衛生福利及衛生福利及衛生福利及衛生福利及衛生福利及衛生福利及衛生福利及"},{"start":14367.819,"end":14396.768,"text":"我希望我們再努力一下好不好好不好下個星期我希望可以有一些具體的答案出來因為這都是代表你照顧基層醫療院所以聽到他們的聲音過去他們配合我們在疫苗政策上在家庭醫療制度上我覺得他們都協助很多偏鄉也是所以我覺得這個沒有什麼圖利的問題我們也希望在現階段一下子上漲造成後續的衝擊其實都非常大所以這一塊我也希望部長可以協助那最後一個就是"},{"start":14397.168,"end":14419.344,"text":"部長最近腸病毒的狀況其實非常嚴重那也是歷年來十年來的新高門診跟急診的就醫人次在3月份最後一週增加到20%將近21%病例增加的幅度其實是非常高的我們都知道說腸病毒其實很重要是多洗手除了用肥皂洗手在醫學上"},{"start":14419.864,"end":14438.396,"text":"自律酸水也具有很好的殺菌的效果。」很多醫生都說表示說適合用手部滅菌包括這個自律酸水滅病毒等等在國際間其實也有很多人使用這樣的見解其實我們有沒有機會多宣導多鼓勵那有沒有"},{"start":14439.036,"end":14439.296,"text":"負責負責負責負責負責"},{"start":14460.559,"end":14481.415,"text":"病毒把他衝掉了所以一般如果因為要用次氯酸水的話他的普及性可能沒有那麼高現在最多的這一個流行會是在學校尤其是小孩子、幼兒園等等這些這些的話"},{"start":14483.132,"end":14504.946,"text":"是不是都能夠在洗手的地方都能夠配置這個而且沒關係我覺得這個就是宣導次氯酸水具有良好的殺毒毒殺的效果其實有很多醫界醫生都表示適用於手部的滅菌啊滅病毒等等因為不是每個地方其實都剛好有肥皂也可以洗手所以"},{"start":14505.626,"end":14508.708,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生福利部長：一、邀請衛生福利部長：一、邀請衛生福利部長：一、邀請衛生福利部長：一、邀請衛生福利部長：一、邀請衛生福利部長：一、邀請衛生福利部長：一、邀請"},{"start":14521.915,"end":14544.649,"text":"這是我的建議那最後一個要討論到今天的議題部長我上次跟您答詢就是說有關輔導教育的功能包括在性剝削上的您上次提到說有一些課程上的輔導其實我們都覺得效果其實不好要檢討輔導教育的功能那您上次回答我說你們會檢討那這個政策檢討因為看一看影片其實對於這些"},{"start":14547.031,"end":14558.926,"text":"加害者也好或者是這些犯罪的目的這些人其實我覺得效果並不好我們要怎麼調整是重點所以這一塊我們會不會有進度檢討的進度是什麼"},{"start":14560.875,"end":14581.543,"text":"這部分的話其實明天我們會開會就會討論這一塊目前的話可能是這樣子對於這些加害人可能要先做評估因為有一些其實真的是輔導教育這種強制治療大概的效果都不好但是有一些還是有他的效果"},{"start":14584.136,"end":14602.103,"text":"可以個別做心理的輔導。」這是我長期所關注的。我希望矯正的功能很重要,可以好好的落實。要看啦,要看它的實際上的差異性。對,我知道。所以部長我們還是要做,因為每一次藉由討論,我們的法令更完整、更周延,其實是最主要的目的。好,謝謝部長。好,謝謝李燕秀委員。接下來請洪孟凱委員發言。"},{"start":14619.363,"end":14619.905,"text":"來,主席謝謝,麻煩請薛部長"},{"start":14626.892,"end":14655.441,"text":"委員好。好,部長好。部長上一次在兒少性剝削專報裡面我就提出來說應該要成立數位犯性犯罪的專責單位斬斷非法的金流以及建立兒少犯罪資料庫三個政策方向當時也獲得你這邊的一個承諾然後來去做所以4月19號本席也看到了你有召集司法院法務部、內政部、訴發部、NCC以及金管會來召開修法的方向對不對?對"},{"start":14656.741,"end":14679.513,"text":"但是本席認為我們真的要玩真的以及真的要嚇阻犯罪的狀況還有最重要就是說我們要有效其實兩大方向一點簡化封網的流程跟主動搜尋相關網站以及金流那還有第二點是針對非法的金流要有效的嚇阻有效的阻斷"},{"start":14680.917,"end":14691.596,"text":"來第一我先請教一下我們這邊在4月19號裡面有提到是說增訂相關機關運用網路科技主動偵查兒少性影像案件這個會有哪個機關來去做負責"},{"start":14693.046,"end":14693.126,"text":"主責單位。」"},{"start":14711.538,"end":14725.875,"text":"這部分的話我們目前的規劃是這樣子的因為這一個有一個科技偵查法那現在在行政院他的主管機關應該是在內政部吧法務部是在法務部"},{"start":14727.076,"end":14752.748,"text":"但是那個法要通過可能要有很長的一個時間所以現階段我們預計大概是會由衛福部來委託就是說委外來做辦理那當然要做封網這個動作的話屬於行政處分這還是衛福部必須要負責但是前面的這些用科技的方法來幫我們去做這種搜尋的話那我們是可以來委外來辦理"},{"start":14753.908,"end":14772.016,"text":"衛福部委外部辦理為什麼本期認為說這很重要因為兒少性剝削如果說就這個案件來講所謂的這個私房啊這個私房一般人其實是不知道但它存在多久"},{"start":14772.856,"end":14792.214,"text":"就媒體的報導他已經存在很久而且會員招收很多所以這有點類似說內行人一個簽一個一般社會大眾不知道但是有內行人專門管道一個簽一個那代表說這樣犯罪其實行之有年那如果說我們沒有主動的去偵查的話恐怕不是因為這一次有所謂的這個藝人的事件爆發"},{"start":14792.935,"end":14819.82,"text":"我們還不知道說到底有受害多久所以這當然要主動去偵查所以主動的部分是由衛福部這邊來做預計多久會成立這樣的一個單位目前我們先有幾個步驟嘛第一個就是要先找這個相關這方面領域的一些專家來討論也就是說我們那個招標的這個規格會用一個標案然後會去委託公司來去處理"},{"start":14820.52,"end":14834.986,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會"},{"start":14837.892,"end":14862.178,"text":"好,所以看起來是部長有信心在卸任之前能夠有這樣的一個標案出來,是不是?是,我希望是可以做得到啦好,來,部長那另外一個部分喔本席有提到是說金流很重要為什麼?殺頭的生意有人做賠錢的生意沒人做為什麼會有這麼多人明明知道說這是違法的但是他還去做,是因為武漢級啦那怎麼樣"},{"start":14862.978,"end":14884.844,"text":"把非法的金流給阻斷這很重要一個是非法金流阻斷另外一個就我加重你犯罪成本讓你知道說你賺這種黑心錢貪心錢你要付出一旦被抓到你要付出的成本很高那我請教在這一次裡面沒有召開兒童少年性剝削的這個修法方向的部分針對盈利或者是販售"},{"start":14886.084,"end":14904.618,"text":"你們有沒有做討論?有那預計我們最高因為我們委員有好幾個我自己也有提出相關的修法版本那我們這個行政部門這邊預計如果說你是拿兒童性影像來去做盈利或販售的話我們現在期待最高要處多少的罰款跟多少的刑責"},{"start":14906.725,"end":14915.77,"text":"我們行政單位建議本來的條文裡面意圖營利就是有加重處罰現在是我們這一次的修完我們的建議的條文裡面是要"},{"start":14916.997,"end":14936.842,"text":"把這個付費者付費者這個部分的話也把它入法就是說要去處罰本質疑完全接受我也認為是說你有你去持有跟說你花錢去購買兒少性影像這個是完全不同的你是等於是你花錢購買這要加重處分但是一樣"},{"start":14939.022,"end":14954.233,"text":"公給的部分。」等下再講嘛制毒跟販毒是一樣是一樣的這個刑責嘛應該是要更嚴格的一個處罰嘛那一樣我現在講的是說盈利或者是說販售的話我們在這一次有沒有提出相關的"},{"start":14955.053,"end":14975.451,"text":"這一次倒沒有特別這個因為本來的條本來的條文就有加這種期限二分之一本來是一到七一年加二分之一這是本來的條文就有的那是否需要再增加這我想這我有看到很多的委員版本甚至有建議說三年以上"},{"start":14976.152,"end":15004.053,"text":"或五年以上銀利的部分。」我覺得這事實的可能之後我們主條可以再討論但是重點在於是說加強他的犯罪成本我覺得這是應該的那還有最後你們今天4月19號的開會討論裡面沒有講到任何關於怎麼樣阻斷非法金流有討論啦但是你們今天提出來的部分沒有任何違法金流的一個阻斷"},{"start":15005.768,"end":15028.937,"text":"所以我們現在在講的很多討論的很多都是講說我怎麼樣抓到我怎麼樣能夠讓他嚴刑立法但是現在的問題是不是抓不到他有可能他海外第一抓不到第二是他在海外持續有賺錢之前有很多的這種論壇有變形因為數位影像所以他複製很容易"},{"start":15029.577,"end":15042.079,"text":"也因此今天封了A論壇他可能複製之後他直接再B換一個IP或是換一個這個架設又再上網那如果說我們等到查到然後我們再去封網他又換成C"},{"start":15043.945,"end":15064.772,"text":"金流的部分怎麼樣阻斷?所以這一個部分為什麼我們那個19號討論的時候沒有結論的原因沒有結論沒有具體有討論但沒有結論是大家在互相拖拖因為在有一些技術上面的問題這個必須要相關的單位還繼續要去研議"},{"start":15067.694,"end":15075.07,"text":"所以這部分的話我們這一次的那個建議的條文就沒有把它放進來的原因是在這個地方部長"},{"start":15076.072,"end":15104.253,"text":"你這樣講啊本席打開天窗說亮話因為我覺得這個金流的部分就不應該只就衛福部一個部會這點本席站在客觀公允的高度本席剛剛也看了一下我們今天所有各部會的報告啊我也在拜託今天因為部會不是部長來所以我不要求你們上台但是真的請媒體朋友以及我們大家看直播的人也都看到"},{"start":15105.953,"end":15122.663,"text":"你的內政部也是講有賴跨部會的合作意思是內政部、警政署配合啦你的訴發部配合主管、中央主管機關的指示"},{"start":15123.991,"end":15150.702,"text":"你的金管會全力協助司法警察機關的偵辦這三個部會都在踢皮球我講實在話你踢我我踢你如果再這樣下去的話我們足球的產業可以蓬勃發展六年教育部推動我們的足球產業提升倒不如我們幾個部會大家多踢幾次皮球非常難看"},{"start":15152.765,"end":15179.592,"text":"我真的講非常難看金流其實是非法集團他們引賴維生為什麼這些非法集團春風吹又生斬草除不盡就是因為他們賺得了錢那如果我們還要放任我們的兒少性影像是變成是非法集團的賺錢工具的話我們任何一個國人都沒有辦法接受所以不好意思抱歉什麼時候還在開會會把金流的這個部分給納進來"},{"start":15181.775,"end":15190.05,"text":"我想說我們可以再安排啦可以再安排是什麼時候?你剛剛很有尬子520前你要成立這個專責小組那520前能不能再開會"},{"start":15191.756,"end":15209.685,"text":"讓大家看到是說到底是哪一個機關其實我說實在話金流沒有辦法阻斷你就很難保會有B會有C再出來明天我們有一個會啦那金管會也會在啦我們會再提這一個案子能不能更要求金管會金管會在4月16號派哪一個層級的人過來音姐派一項來"},{"start":15215.017,"end":15236.27,"text":"我其實問過金管會甚至主委我講是說你銀行內部的東西你管得很好但是除了銀行以外的好像都是疑問三部或是說都是三部管理的完全沒有關係的事情能不能要求更高層級的人一起來開會我們在聯絡的時候我們會特別跟他們提醒"},{"start":15238.191,"end":15256.552,"text":"本席真的希望是完真的所以這是為什麼我肯定你有做的部分我肯定但沒做的部分我也要點出來讓大家看到其他部會還沒有跟上我真的認為說在這件事情上面衛福部相對來講有跑但其他部會沒有跟上大家還是覺得這是衛福部的事啊"},{"start":15257.99,"end":15286.473,"text":"推給衛福部啊,那反正520前部長大家都歡迎批啊,所以就看誰接下來要處理這個爛攤子。能夠做事我肯定,但我更希望是各部會都要跟上。謝謝。謝謝。好,謝謝洪委員。我們接下來請陳培宇委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。那有請衛福部長,謝謝。學部長。部長辛苦了辛苦了。"},{"start":15290.638,"end":15315.049,"text":"衛生福利部長有一個有一個題目比較小先但是我覺得事情很大跟我們今天要討論的事情有關就是在你們目前交出來書面報告裡面提到關於這個人員的名單就是關於兒少性剝缺防治條例修法關於抓到這些人的人員名單目前你們只能說消極資格叫做不得任職於教職兒少機構還有司法機構可是有沒有討論到要不要對外公開這件事情那我們後續會追蹤目前"},{"start":15316.911,"end":15324.16,"text":"之前你們受訪的時候是說還沒有研議必須要相關修法那我們想知道你們目前關於這個人員公開的部分你們修法的方向"},{"start":15327.907,"end":15351.121,"text":"他也是屬於兒少全法C-49條的部分所以會公開確定我們修法方向會往這裡走但是你們會提出來嗎我們辦公室當然也會提但是我要提出來這一次很多在修法委員上不管是加重刑責相關的處罰但是沒有人提到要不要把這些人名字公開這個非常危險所以我們會持續追蹤但是我們想要講到下一頁我們想要講到之前"},{"start":15352.242,"end":15370.067,"text":"我們先從個案來看起,去年暑假期間有新一組的夏令營老師對學生做性侵,然後已經有相關判決出來,可是他目前還在走司法流程。那不同於補習班、幼兒園、托兒所或是學校機構,我知道衛福部已經有在處理了,上個月的記者會我們提到,把教育部的部分也納進來,可是我們發現工作是刮鬍營,對"},{"start":15373.368,"end":15390.876,"text":"各式各樣的運動俱樂部,他們不受社福教育系統的管轄,他們用工商登記來登錄,所以這些大人,這些每天都會運動才藝科目接觸到小孩的大人,他們目前如果做出任何對兒少不利的行為,再三不管地帶。」我想要問一下部長怎麼辦?"},{"start":15397.246,"end":15418.035,"text":"這部分的話可能要還是要需要再討論一下啦我基本上我的看法是這些的話應該還是比照都可以可以來做比照而上法新亞C49條他應該要公告對不對可是好我們來看一下也許之後是法務部司法院你們要出來下一頁"},{"start":15418.855,"end":15436.158,"text":"我們往下跟衛福部討論其實我們辦公室之前也有邀請你們到我們辦公室來討論關於進入司法流程他可能還沒有走到最終判決的這些特殊的個案就如同新竹這個個案那他就會繼續在民間開課因為他還在走相關的判決就算一審有相關判決了"},{"start":15437.199,"end":15464.434,"text":"可是家長會緊張啊因為這個教練他已經確定判刑應該是三年多吧可是家長們會互相通告可是沒有在這個家長群組裡面的家長他們可能還是不小心就把孩子送到這個教練營隊裡面去可是我剛剛已經說他在工商登錄裡面所以就地方的教育局處跟社會局處都覺得不關他們的事情那我們要回到中央是中央要有相關法規讓地方教育局處等於遵守可是我要說這不是個案這會是通案"},{"start":15465.695,"end":15481.809,"text":"如果我們沒有更積極的態度,一個是我們要問相關的裁罰結果到底什麼時候才會出來?家長到底要等到什麼時候才可以查到行為人跟相關的機構?難道在所有司法判決結束之前,家長只能靠自救,然後口耳相傳,確保小孩不會被送到這些大人的手上嗎?"},{"start":15483.942,"end":15501.934,"text":"這當然齁在司法機關他們會採取一個誤而誤得可是我們之前跟司法機關討論要什麼時候回送然後要不要回送其實跟衛福部這邊也需要討論那當然我覺得大家會把行政主管機關的職責放在衛福部身上所以我們才會在衛福部今天上台的時候跟你們討論"},{"start":15503.095,"end":15513.952,"text":"你們如何更強制的跟相關司法機關的討論?你們其實不是不能處理,就算他在司法判決的這個路上,其實我們跟你們討論過,你們其實是有手上是有工具可以處理的,對嗎?"},{"start":15515.953,"end":15543.478,"text":"要不要請司長幫忙回答一下謝謝委員那這一次我們在修兒權法裡頭有特別把所有兒少不當對待不管是外人或家人那一旦是走刑事後面的訴追那我們有在法條裡頭要求檢警特別是這個後端已經裁罰已經確定判刑之後相關的資料要回到這個主管機關回到縣市那我們就會把這些資料"},{"start":15544.438,"end":15565.385,"text":"在九七條裡頭去做一些登記。」好那我再直接跟您討論還有這個不起訴的部分例如說以新竹這個個案有兩個孩子他們的當時說這個大人獲得不起訴處分是因為受害學童沒有辦法提供正確受害時間可是我知道後續有社工介入幫忙那關於這個不起訴的部分我們可以怎麼做?"},{"start":15569.7,"end":15591.958,"text":"這不起訴處分基本上就是...可是我們社工有進入去我們社工有介入去了解了嘛那衛福部這邊的態度跟角色呢我想家長會擔心的是這個因為我們今天所有在立法院討論這麼多複雜的法案啊然後入法怎麼修我覺得家長可能也沒有力氣跟時間可是對家長來說最直覺就是當我要把小孩送去某一個營隊我可以上CRC就是你們公布的那個網站去查"},{"start":15592.478,"end":15607.286,"text":"MOMOMO他有沒有觸犯了什麼法我可不可以放心把孩子交到他的手上可是如果我剛剛說的包含在走這個漫長司法判決的路上我們查不到這個人還有這個只是因為孩子沒有辦法正確提供受侵害的時間所以得到不起訴處分這個大人我們其實還是會擔心對嗎我想"},{"start":15610.087,"end":15624.776,"text":"現場的大人站在保護自己的小孩立場,我們也會擔心把孩子送到這樣的人手上,所以我們的訴求現在也有時間有限,謝謝。我們的訴求就是我們希望針對沒有納管的兒少相關機關,衛福部在三個月內要召集跨部會,包含教育部跟經濟部,盤點我剛剛說的營隊、工作室、運動俱樂部,這些"},{"start":15628.959,"end":15656.457,"text":"他並沒有立案在你們所認知的教育系統或者是衛福系統裡面的這些相關的大人跟環境必須要訂定兒少保護跟管理的機制再來就是兒童及少年保護通報分級分類處理的調查辦法裡面已經進入司法流程就如剛剛司長您說的不要讓它變成一個漫漫長路而必須要把司法跟行政雙軌並行讓社政及主管機關依照兒少權法先行採取行政裁法有沒有機會"},{"start":15657.878,"end":15683.43,"text":"我想這應該是有啦那先簡單來講司法機關是對於犯罪的嫌疑人給他救救是沒錯但是行政機關可以做一個預防沒錯他的主要是預防所以如果說這一些不是個人而是說機構包括這一個教育部的機構衛福部的機構另外還有這一些不在這些你們主管的機構的範圍內但是不管是怎麼樣的機構的話"},{"start":15685.171,"end":15712.127,"text":"如果有出現這種行為,到某一個程度,比方說已經進入到偵查的情形,那我們就可以先行做預防性的,要用公告還是用什麼樣的方式的話,這可以再談,但是以一個就是說讓這一個同樣可以查詢得到的一個方式"},{"start":15713.228,"end":15736.385,"text":"那以便就是說不要說再把小孩子送到送到這些裡面去尤其是那個人如果還在的話而且他可能還持續開課當中所以這裡面的話就是說是不是這一些的機構那要把這個當事那個嫌疑人的話先把他先解除掉職務或或者是"},{"start":15737.145,"end":15738.886,"text":"負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任"},{"start":15767.086,"end":15769.686,"text":"主席有請部長請薛部長"},{"start":15775.719,"end":15797.648,"text":"我們在討論就是兒童性剝削的這個狀況要怎麼樣去把它這個加以惡賭那我想先要檢視一下我們現在網路上兒童性剝削的現狀那根據臺灣警方的統計數據實際上網路兒童性剝削的案件是呈現逐年增加的趨勢對不對"},{"start":15799.389,"end":15828.286,"text":"通報案次其實成案的也是越來越多2017年到現在我看到數據從1060人變成3346人成長了將近三倍那這案件當中很多是利用網路平台進行性剝削的行為包括兒童色情偷拍恐嚇那這些行為不僅造成兒童身心嚴重也對社會造成極大的危害"},{"start":15829.261,"end":15843.533,"text":"那這也是為什麼現在這個創意私房這個事件引起大家極大的關注坦白講這個現象存在是早在創意私房這案件被揭露之前其實就開始越來越嚴重對不對"},{"start":15845.667,"end":15872.112,"text":"的確是這樣子從我們的在處理的案件的數據來看的話是越來越厲害我這邊跟那個部長說因為坦白講我自己是覺得非常的憂心你就拿創意私房這個案件來看的話我不知道這個部長你覺得我對現在我們防治兒童性剝削目前的政府的投入我是有點悲觀的"},{"start":15873.193,"end":15876.923,"text":"我不知道部長你覺得樂觀還是悲觀?目前的看法"},{"start":15878.661,"end":15904.846,"text":"這還是需要有很大的這個空間要去改善因為目前來講的話當然有一些是觀念上面要去注意比如說過去可能類似的對性影像這件事情並不把它認定說它是一個嚴重的事情因為沒有看到實際上的人受到這個侵犯"},{"start":15905.906,"end":15926.139,"text":"或感受會不一樣。」但是對兒童、少年來講的話因為他沒有自主就是說缺乏自主意識的能力所以才需要特別的去做保護那這個觀念的話必須要去讓我們全民都能夠理解"},{"start":15926.539,"end":15954.365,"text":"那以現在因為有這樣子的一個案子出來的話我想大概民眾方面都可以接受那再接下來就是政府機關包括司法機關要怎麼樣去跟上去的問題我剛剛跟部長說為什麼我是感到相當的憂心甚至悲觀因為我覺得目前看起來我們的作為當然是有啦但是比起說這個快速成長的案件數我覺得這個作為真的"},{"start":15955.245,"end":15971.679,"text":"他到底效力跟效果如何到現在其實我覺得還是難以驗證我舉個例子美國他有制定一個國家預防和防治剝削兒童的策略他是要透過立法執法教育公共政策多面向的綜合措施而且是一個"},{"start":15972.299,"end":16000.72,"text":"跨單位跟跨國際的策略指南,目標就是有效預防跟打擊兒童性剝削。」可是剛剛部長其實剛剛講到說創醫施防的這個案件當中我舉四個面向就是說我們叫兒童性剝削第一個是強化法律規範對不對第二個是要加強執法力度嘛第三個是要提升公眾意識第四個是要加強國際合作可是因為剛剛部長一直在談的其實是第三塊啦"},{"start":16001.46,"end":16017.748,"text":"就是提升公眾意識確實因為創意私房跟知名藝人他涉入確實公眾有意識到這些性影像他不單單只是性影像本身他背後可能產生的是一個兒童性剝削的一個產業鏈"},{"start":16019.449,"end":16046.372,"text":"那這個當然在這個狀況之下我覺得政府部門要努力的告訴大家就是說不要變成兒童性剝削的共犯這是講說社會公共意識的部分可是法規當然現在我們在努力想要是加重某些刑度這是修法的方向可是另外兩個面向我目前說真的我不知道就加強執法力度還有加強國際合作因為都已經跨國化了我不知道現在我們的具體策略是什麼"},{"start":16047.397,"end":16061.989,"text":"對,那這一個部分的話,第一個就是說有關於,其實他第二個,剛剛委員提到的第二點,那就是比較在技術層面,技術層面我們必須要有這種技術能夠來破解這相關的這些事情"},{"start":16062.409,"end":16084.678,"text":"那這一個部分的話其實我們必須要把它看成什麼樣你有這樣的技術其實你也在做國安的保護包括恐怖的攻擊等等這方面其實都是相同的技術可以去對於這個網路上面的世界的話去做某種程度的預防的措施"},{"start":16085.458,"end":16109.401,"text":"那最後一個就國際的合作的這部分的話,的確以台灣在國際的這種地位的話,其實在談國際合作是有它一定的困難度。但是也不是說沒有辦法去做處理,那我們也可以透過NGO的網絡來加入,來做這一方面的一些合作。"},{"start":16110.121,"end":16119.898,"text":"那再拜託部長跟我們的衛福部、我們的整個政府能夠在這方面再加強一下以上,謝謝好,謝謝羅志強委員,我們現在先休息10分鐘"},{"start":16156.172,"end":16162.915,"text":"、民主、民主、民主、民主、民主、民主、民主、民主、民主、民主、民主"},{"start":16738.377,"end":16742.318,"text":"行政部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、國家通訊傳播委員會、"},{"start":16761.981,"end":16778.554,"text":"國安部部長好今天我們大家在這裡討論都是怎麼樣讓我們的孩子國家的主人翁能夠有一個更好的環境台灣少子化已經是一個很大的都已經是國安問題了"},{"start":16780.015,"end":16797.584,"text":"但是我們的孩子生出來之後,我們卻沒有辦法讓他們在一個安全的、快樂的、無憂無慮的環境成長,那這個其實是我們所有大人我們應該要為孩子創造的,那當然特別您是衛福部部長"},{"start":16798.504,"end":16820.431,"text":"那我們今天針對因為這個創意私房這樣的一個論壇網站的事件引發了讓我們大家覺得對於兒少性影像防治的一些具體作為甚至我們應該檢討我們目前的做法乃至於我們兒童及少年性剝削防治條例的修正方向"},{"start":16821.411,"end":16838.965,"text":"那本席也看了你們的今天的這個報告那報告裡面寫了很多等於說貴部辦理了哪些事項但是本席更想提的是我們怎麼樣可以全面的來禁止"},{"start":16840.274,"end":16861.822,"text":"在整個社會上我相信只要是兒少的性影像我們都是禁止觀看的所以怎麼樣讓這樣的一個情況是他可以全面禁止我想說的是全面禁止兒少的性影像能夠會出現在我們的社會中甚至我們怎麼樣玩全面的禁止跟防治那"},{"start":16863.171,"end":16885.807,"text":"你們所做的已經做了,但是要達到這個目標,你們還缺什麼?你們的法律層面還缺什麼?你們的執行層面還缺什麼?部長您的看法?這部分的話,法律層面當然還有一些可以改善的空間所以我們這一次就是會修法有沒有考慮提專法?"},{"start":16888.086,"end":16912.368,"text":"全面的其實這就是一個專法,兒少性剝削條例就是一個專法其實現在怎麼樣去遏止這種性影像的這種犯罪或剝削的一個行為很重要就是因為這個性影像犯罪的傳播都是"},{"start":16914.072,"end":16930.798,"text":"依賴網路。」對所以我說的專法的意思是包含這個現在科技有一點也包含因為現在最大的問題確實就在科技層面現在網路層面嘛那你這個是法律層面嘛對"},{"start":16931.718,"end":16955.529,"text":"當然要去另外訂一個有關於網路犯罪的我們全面的來保護我們的這個兒童的這個法律的話我個人是也樂觀其成就是說有一個專法那專門在處理有關於網路犯罪的這警訊那是不是就有那個專法裡面有一些資源可以來投入"},{"start":16958.291,"end":16972.567,"text":"我拿一個具體的來說在你們的第二項這個有關性影像處理中心和提供諮詢服務你們提到應該要下架的成功移除86%那表示還有14%"},{"start":16974.449,"end":17002.468,"text":"沒有移除的那什麼原因?這個部分的話是因為我們在原來的法規架構之下的話下架的話是有地方在做啦所以對所以這整個各種這就是執行層面嘛所以剛剛我說法律層面跟執行層面我們要達到這種我們希望給孩子的一個最安全而且最好的一個環境那法律層面跟"},{"start":17003.448,"end":17026.562,"text":"執行層面還需要積極作為的。」而不是說你做了什麼當然我們也覺得你們很辛苦做了很多但是我們是不是可以更有效的我們不希望一而再再而三的這樣看到然後再來再來你們第四點提供被害人保護輔助的這邊112年就去年提供心理諮商輔導的有1005人次"},{"start":17029.204,"end":17054.995,"text":"那這個是針對兒少性影像嗎?還是是整個包含成人?是只有兒少的部分?對,那這一千零五人,這一般都還會有黑數啊?保護的,沒有就是說我們提供出去的服務的,這不會是有黑數啊?不是啊,我是說提供已經有這麼多來諮商,那一定也有"},{"start":17055.695,"end":17084.694,"text":"沒有來的對沒有來的有多少其實像這些我們專責的單位是不是可以等於加強的我們是要主動積極的為我們的孩子創造這樣的環境還有很多該預防該幫他防範的想想看這麼多小孩這麼可憐其實你知道我們啊肉體的創傷容易撫平心理的創傷是最難的"},{"start":17085.785,"end":17100.101,"text":"所以甚至我們有些孩子他從小創傷他長大以後也會是可能沒有好好的輔導也會是社會的問題當然我們更重要的是我們就不希望我們的這個國家未來的主人翁受到這些傷害"},{"start":17101.903,"end":17124.548,"text":"所以是不是可以有一些更積極的法律層面跟執行面的作為?能不能、可不可以,比如說在下個會期開始的時候,可以有書面的、完整的報告可以送來?我想如果立法院這邊有排報告的話,我們大概就會執行。好,謝謝。"},{"start":17130.404,"end":17134.749,"text":"衛生福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、金融監督管理委員會就"},{"start":17156.895,"end":17168.8,"text":"衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、金融監督管理委員會就"},{"start":17171.125,"end":17193.694,"text":"第一部長之前您有提到依照統計數據的呈現年輕族群的自殺率有提高的趨勢所以在提出年輕族群的心理健康的協助所以我要請教一下就是說部長你知道我們全國各縣市當中哪個縣市的自殺率是最高的嗎?"},{"start":17199.427,"end":17224.134,"text":"因為我目前可能要查一下資料好,那個沒關係我其實都查好了第一名是苗栗那實際的統計數據有點顛覆我們很多人的想像因為我想很多人應該都會跟我一樣覺得說大家就是說在都會區可能生活步調很緊湊那工作壓力、居住環境等等的因素就是"},{"start":17225.474,"end":17242.327,"text":"處於就比較高壓,那高壓到超過個人可以忍受的範圍,所以導致這個憂鬱甚至就是說自我傷害,然後最後輕生的這個狀況,感覺上這個邏輯推論起來是比較高的,但是我們看一下這個圖"},{"start":17244.649,"end":17260.169,"text":"這是去年的新聞,它統計2022年的這個自殺率的數據,那圖裡面的這個黑色底的數據就是高於平均值,那我換個方式呈現,我們再看一下這個表"},{"start":17262.26,"end":17275.494,"text":"我特別再關心一下這個花蓮台東的部分我們花蓮台東呢就是前五名那部長你覺得這樣的情形可能的原因是什麼有哪些"},{"start":17276.483,"end":17291.422,"text":"當然因為這邊的自殺率是全人口那我們知道說這些自殺的這一個個案的這部分的話其實是以年紀大的為占多數"},{"start":17292.643,"end":17308.075,"text":"所以,從他這樣看下去的話,排名前面的可能都是老年化的、高年化的這一個線是比較高的,所以這也是可以來理解。對,那所以為什麼特別是這個?"},{"start":17309.776,"end":17327.63,"text":"老年人的部分自查率部長會認為是比較高?從統計數字來看,你覺得有哪幾個比較可能的原因?當然就是說,比如說久病,然後在照顧上面有問題,不管是說"},{"start":17331.994,"end":17349.329,"text":"雙勞互相照顧、獨居等等。」我想這個原因以外,我們追究這個原因以外,我想我更注重的是我們的對策是什麼?所以這個部分,我不曉得衛福部有沒有比較精進的作為?"},{"start":17351.192,"end":17365.691,"text":"當然我是不是請我們市長來回答?好,謝謝委員關切這個議題,如同部長補充的那目前全台灣的數據是65歲以上的人口是自殺率最高那我們看年輕族群是因為他的自殺率上升最陡"},{"start":17366.272,"end":17387.147,"text":"所以當時是因為這樣的理由所以最高的還是如同部長講的所以如果說這個鄉鎮市的人口分佈是比較老化的的確它的自殺率就會比較高這是剛剛的一點補充那關於我們的因應作為呢我們目前是結合22縣市不管是醫師科還是我們的長照活動或是社家屬的相關活動我們大量的做老人的憂鬱症篩檢"},{"start":17388.248,"end":17417.386,"text":"因為根據我們去年國衛院的研究是顯示說老人的自殺呢核心的議題是他的憂鬱症沒有被篩檢出來那目前台灣65歲以上的人他的憂鬱症盛行率是16%一般人大概是10%所以說老人的憂鬱症必須要大量的被篩檢出來才可以提早介入提早治療那我們心理健康師結合社家署相關的活動在去年我們篩檢了65萬人次那我們轉介治療了高達4000多人所以這是我們的經濟作為我也是第一次"},{"start":17418.126,"end":17446.734,"text":"第一次質詢你所以我讓你多講一點然後我們單看這個一年的數據可能不太精確那接下來我想我們再看一下這個是成功大學的這個看見健康數據的資料他所呈現的是2018年到2020年的統計數據那麼這個花蓮也是明顯高於這個平均值這也是排名在前面那我們台東呢更是得到第二名"},{"start":17447.674,"end":17470.068,"text":"那或許有些專家會說因為這個偏鄉的這個醫療資源缺乏那醫院的密集度比較低被搶救的機會比較低其實這句話這個換句話說就是在偏鄉醫療資源比較比較少的地方可能就是你在那邊自殺成功率就比較高啦換句話講是這樣子"},{"start":17473.37,"end":17488.906,"text":"雖然這是可能影響的因素但是我比較想了解就是說造成非都市居民比較容易有憂鬱傾向的因素又是什麼那為什麼就是又讓我們這個花東的人比較容易產生尋短的念頭"},{"start":17491.589,"end":17513.777,"text":"這可能有幾個因素,第一個就是說物質濫用的問題,物質濫用,比如說酒或是其他的一些毒品等等那一類的,這是一個可能的原因,但是在原先來講的話,這不見得是一個主要的原因"},{"start":17516.58,"end":17532.467,"text":"那另外的話就是無業啦就沒有適當的工作啦這個也是也是一個那或許沒有適當的這個壓力排擠的地方或娛樂的地方可能也是"},{"start":17533.55,"end":17546.868,"text":"也有可能啦,但是我通常我是比較把政策放在主要的裡面我想重要就是說回歸到我剛剛講就是說到底怎麼樣幫助這些人可能還是最重要的那另外還有一個數據"},{"start":17549.371,"end":17577.77,"text":"我看到也是非常憂心因為其實在我為什麼會特別提這個是因為我周遭的選民好幾位他們的孩子也是正當這個青壯年的20多歲30歲那就也是都自殺亡生的這很遺憾的那依照你們委託製作2030年原住民足健康照護中長城計劃的報告當中我看到了這個資料"},{"start":17578.99,"end":17598.516,"text":"那為什麼特別是就是說25到44歲的青壯年的原住民他們的自殺死亡率是高於這個全國的數據高出了將近五成那部長你覺得就是說這個是什麼原因那你們因應的這個對策又是什麼"},{"start":17600.57,"end":17615.185,"text":"這個部分的話其實跟剛剛我在報告的是有關係啦這有約略有提到一些啦這個我也瞭解有一些關係啦那在這一個生活上面因為"},{"start":17616.646,"end":17634.88,"text":"職業上面的不是收入讓收入不是很穩定的情形的話當然會造成生活壓力是比較高的所以你覺得說這些也是也是在原鄉發生比率會比較高嗎?這個因為這裡的統計是不是只有原鄉"},{"start":17635.74,"end":17652.007,"text":"當然對沒錯因為因為我我我遇到的實際案例其實都發生在都會區他們也有不錯的工作對好其中的是對有他們的他們工作但是也是都跟高壓有關係啦好那我想是"},{"start":17653.147,"end":17677.058,"text":"是這樣子就是說有一個現象我要拜託部長特別注意一下那司長您剛就是應該接任也沒有太久啦我也請你注意一下因為我希望你們新建司可以多加加油因為從2022年你們成立到現在其實對於原住民的這個心理健康的這個重要的這些統計數據"},{"start":17679.499,"end":17701.271,"text":"你們這個司裡面的同仁一問三不知啊所以這個可能到最後責任都要司長來扛甚至部長來扛我覺得這樣也不是很理想那因為齁這個我今天秀出來這個是衛福部報告裡面的東西啊那我問你們就是說新建師說還有沒有其他更完整的數據"},{"start":17702.512,"end":17711.027,"text":"結果呢你們完全都不知道就是說還有哪些原住民的自殺的這個數據的統計甚至你們有同仁反問我們說啊你們這個數據從哪裡來"},{"start":17716.266,"end":17730.556,"text":"不就是你們衛福部委外的嗎?那我不管是不是興建師委外還是其他單位委外的,這些都跟你們的業務有相關,就要主動去把這些數據全部都撈出來啊,對不對?還反問我們說這個數據哪裡來,這樣很漏氣啊"},{"start":17736.874,"end":17763.88,"text":"那所以如果說連這些數據都這些數據趨勢都沒有掌握的話那我想說你要怎麼去有什麼因應的對策我也很難今天期待你們有什麼會給出什麼滿意的答案但是我這樣提喔你們也不要太難過因為呢原住民相關的問題一樣的我也問過勞動部的這個曾經有勞動部的這個安研所有一位同仁被我問到原住民這個勞工相關的問題"},{"start":17766.081,"end":17785.722,"text":"一開始他也是都答不出來但是回去他發憤圖強所以他就後來跟著他們部裡的他們單位同仁做了很多原住民相關的這個數據的研究統計所以現在我也謝謝衛福部那個勞動部就是特別在受到那樣的刺激之後發憤圖強"},{"start":17787.884,"end":17814.601,"text":"很主動的把所有原住民相關的勞工問題一些數據全部都研究得一清二楚那帶動整個勞動部下鄉或者不只下鄉都會去有原住民的地方他們就都也會跟我們請教說哪裡可以真的找到比較多的原住民可以做有效的宣導所以他們也沒有再到工地去發DVD做宣導了"},{"start":17815.701,"end":17835.225,"text":"所以錯誤的宣導方式跟這個地點這個都是要注意的所以我希望今天這個質詢可以給你們一些良善的刺激那也希望你們可以效法一下這個勞動部當初那位安研所的同仁因為後來他也升官了也不錯所以我想在這邊給你們勉勵謝謝"},{"start":17838.715,"end":17843.643,"text":"好,謝謝陳穎委員的發言。接下來請牛許廷委員、牛許廷"},{"start":17845.762,"end":17870.916,"text":"不在。」接下來請蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員、蔡易瑜委員不在。接下來請張家俊委員、張家俊委員、張家俊委員不在。接下來請林柱英委員、林柱英委員、林柱英委員不在。接下來請鄭振淺委員、鄭振淺委員、鄭振淺委員不在。接下來請鄭天才委員、鄭天才委員、鄭天才委員不在。接下來請劉建國委員發言。"},{"start":17878.091,"end":17895.911,"text":"謝謝主席二、邀請部長請薛部長委員好部長好不然你看一下這個資料齁這是昨天北市某醫院這個被"},{"start":17898.917,"end":17912.39,"text":"被爆料護理師偷拍病人私密照一次的事情,部長有沒有掌握?目前的話是新北市衛生局在調查當中。"},{"start":17915.513,"end":17939.514,"text":"我先不討論那個內容到底是動機是什麼但是我現在給部長看這個歷天來醫療單位病患照片外流的事件你看2011年新北亞東醫院2014台東馬捷醫院2017台北醫學大學富士醫院我沒有記錯他應該有兩次然後2021就最近而已兩年前嘉義聖馬爾町醫院"},{"start":17942.834,"end":17965.835,"text":"這些都發生在這個手術過程中偷拍患者照片並上傳網路的社群。這個確實就是把病患的照片流出然後來做破網或不當的使用我想這是一個好像長期以來持續在發生的問題"},{"start":17967.11,"end":17991.594,"text":"可能都有散在的一些個案但是基本上應該不是說很常見我再給部長看一個資料這是一個網友的對話他說他某次跟朋友聚餐朋友的朋友是急診室的醫師聊著聊著就拿出手機開始秀傷患的患部照片給大家看那看了實在很不舒服"},{"start":17992.608,"end":18013.161,"text":"那現在回想起來這個行為是不是跟剛剛講的那個事件有點類似我是不清楚說這個看到是什麼東西不過這種行為跟剛剛講的手勢式的這個照片流出的情景也就是這一次的那個案件的情景是不太一樣"},{"start":18014.863,"end":18039.9,"text":"這件事實際上,因為以前很臭皮的啦。當說它開,有在治療某一種病人就落嚴重啦。什麼開刀,它就落嚴重啦。就提一種這種想法出來。那它在,如果是在開拉網開的,那照下來的,有時候是基於那個學術上面的,因為醫院裡面都有那個meeting嘛。"},{"start":18040.72,"end":18057.536,"text":"他必須要把這個病人的狀況跟同事去相互做討論所以有時候這個是必要的但是你給其他不相關的人那個行為就不好了"},{"start":18059.741,"end":18075.442,"text":"不是,部長,這個這樣講怪怪的啦齁,你剛才的隱喻是,我都認真在聽啦齁,你跟我那臭皮的嘛齁,臭皮這臭皮多了酒,你有講了嗎?這大家很困難的講啦,有一些意思就是"},{"start":18076.503,"end":18095.864,"text":"有那種自我標榜說我有什麼...不是喔,因為我為什麼會這麼講?不相關的人看。放到網路是會被知道,那醫師私底下在就像你講的展現他的醫療技術或怎麼樣,還是他發生到什麼個案,他就可以這樣拿去給...不應該。都不應該嗎?不應該,對。那這個沒有規範嗎?"},{"start":18099.57,"end":18111.449,"text":"這是本來就有洩漏病人隱私的這個法條文字都有啦但是要去舉證會比較困難因為除非說那個看的人願意出來作證"},{"start":18113.059,"end":18139.607,"text":"我們醫療法第七十二條規定嘛對不對這個醫療機構其人員因業務而窒息或持有病人病情或健康資訊不得無故洩漏那違反的話一一百零三條可以除五萬到二十萬以下的罰款這明明有醫療法的規定在啦怎麼會這種類似的案件還層出不窮嘛對不對然後你看喔衛福部在二零一五年的時候就這一張"},{"start":18143.769,"end":18149.63,"text":"這張A4的一張紙總共就是把過去是門診醫療的隱私維護規範改為醫療機構醫療隱私維護規範從門診擴大到醫療機構全面試用就是我拿的這張紙共715個字這我助理還時間還蠻多的還有辦法把它算出總共715個字"},{"start":18172.554,"end":18182.464,"text":"這715個字裡面是到底有沒有落實去執行?還是推廣不足?還是內容規範不夠?才會使這些相關人員有恃無恐?才會使陳獨部長所講的還有這麼一個臭皮?"},{"start":18187.125,"end":18207.454,"text":"這個還是兩個啦因為這一些的規範來講是在醫療機構裡面那你從事這些醫療業務的話那不管是不是醫師還是其他人員都必須要去遵守的那通常這一類的嫌違的違反比較容易被看得到"},{"start":18208.675,"end":18230.442,"text":"但是剛剛委員提到的有一些個案是在手術室手術室就是一個封閉的空間那病人如果就已經麻醉的話那事實上他也不知情所以就靠的只有這整個的團隊裡面的互相取發才有可能知道那另外一個情形就是剛剛委員提到的"},{"start":18231.802,"end":18252.789,"text":"要拿那個相片給他的朋友看,這個就更是屬於私的,這部分的話其實真的是看的人願意檢舉你才看得到,因為它不是公開的。不是,部長我要從另外一個角度去討論,這個會不會是一種陳柯一種好像"},{"start":18253.365,"end":18268.983,"text":"救急救我的疾病從2015年的時候我們還去改這個規範是不是會讓我覺得是不是這種隱私維護規範的強度不夠不然怎麼容許這樣的事情一而再再而三的發生"},{"start":18270.593,"end":18298.673,"text":"我是覺得應該沒有到那樣子的程度因為終究這種案件不多啦是我剛剛提到的那一種有一些會把這一些照片拿去給朋友看這種可能這種行為是比較多但是他的問題就是說如果要適用法規的時候就舉證了困難度的問題部長你講這個案件不多我怕你講這句話完的時候會跑出很多"},{"start":18300.331,"end":18319.281,"text":"應該不會我還是建議部長是不是對這個規範裡面有沒有討論的空間是不是加強那個規範的強度當然這個可以來討論以這一次的案件我們看調查結果是怎麼樣如果看起來的話"},{"start":18321.938,"end":18342.909,"text":"屬實在開大法裡面真的有這樣的行為,那這個的部分的話就必須要重新檢討我們整個的規範,是不是應該要有更強的強度。」好,就請部長重視這件事情好不好。那我為什麼會提這個報告事件,也因為這個報告者提到,連兒少的身體也都有進行拍攝。"},{"start":18344.315,"end":18359.826,"text":"這陳副部長講的如果是醫療教學用途那自然還是要獲得監護人的同意嘛對不對那如果是為了滿職私域甚至是要放到網路上公然越覽等意圖啦那又不一樣的一個狀況發生嘛所以我針對這個兒少性剝削"},{"start":18362.307,"end":18386.481,"text":"我又有提出這個修法版本不過那一天我的強調還是在前端就是說加強所有企圖以兒少、影音、影像來圖利的這個滑折這是在後端對不對那前端裡面你後端不管滑多重我一再強調是前端把關重要如何避免到這個兒少接觸到不適合的網站及內容避免兒少的這個資訊及流出"},{"start":18387.636,"end":18405.45,"text":"這其實是一個非常非常重要的一件事情那請部長你再看一下這個這則報導歐盟曾經因為為做好兒童隱私保護抖音遭歐盟重罰是新台幣117億這是創造這個抖音遭開罰的歷史新高紀錄也是歐盟首度對這個社群去做這樣的一個開罰"},{"start":18414.002,"end":18428.451,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會第12屆第1會期社會福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會第12屆第"},{"start":18431.295,"end":18459.278,"text":"部長也在嘛然後問了相關單位然後我也用了很多的案例給部長跟相關人員做參考真的實在是落差太大了然後組織單位好像也沒有辦法即刻去回應我怎樣可以做更好這樣一個積極的一個作為我記得好像是一個月時間一個月時間要提供出來給委員會做參考你們怎麼樣去"},{"start":18459.978,"end":18485.014,"text":"做這樣的一個處理。」那另外一個,去年在家福基金會有公布兒少網路社群使用習慣調查,那其中兒少使用這個網路社群互相經驗中有超過兩成的兒少會主動點擊,然後進入這個標示未滿18歲檢疫的網頁,也有一成多會在網路上看到可怕的這個血腥的內容。不只如此,我想"},{"start":18486.653,"end":18512.402,"text":"我上週的質詢跟現在的質詢其實還是希望政府相關單位更積極來介入管制的最主要的目的是這個樣子還有在家暴這部分報導裡面有一個比較令人更憂心的地方就是我不曉得部長知道這個冰棒這個軟體嗎?這個APP嗎?我不清楚你不清楚齁?這個聯繫上有落差"},{"start":18514.691,"end":18524.58,"text":"國中、高中只使用過冰棒的都達三成。」我是指這樣的年紀裡面,真的亂笑,就是在委員會部長的年紀有一些了。"},{"start":18525.599,"end":18545.081,"text":"你們回去自己再好好處理。這個APP在Google平台上顯示是適合所有人然後很多家長也同樣會用這款APP來掌握小朋友的行蹤"},{"start":18547.657,"end":18575.8,"text":"同時可以互交好友有時候就會變成有心人去掌握未成年所在地的APP雖然這個APP已經在去年的3月下架但是類似家偶的APP能不斷地推出而且年齡在年齡上都是括號都是適合所有適合所有人現在我把這些資料給部長做參考"},{"start":18578.407,"end":18581.691,"text":"那這些裡面會不會由我講的這個狀況持續的再發生?這個你們有掌握嗎?"},{"start":18589.879,"end":18615.317,"text":"目前當然是沒有,因為我們目前是沒有一個機制是可以去做主動的網站巡查目前是沒有對嘛,今天有蘇貨部也有來,NCC也有來,像這樣的事情到底要怎麼處理我一直強調前端的管制嘛,前端的處理那其實上個禮拜到現在也應該一個禮拜多了那個"},{"start":18616.605,"end":18646.165,"text":"ACC這邊先回報委員好先回報委員這個委員上個禮拜質詢提到的那個來自深淵烈日的黃金箱那個內容在youtube跟巴哈不同平台不同分級的這個我們有請那個iWIN去了解去看那個內容他的分級是不是符合現在的歷史框架那根據iWIN那個檢視結果YT的那個分級是符合的"},{"start":18646.785,"end":18675.339,"text":"因為有一些不同﹐雖然是同一個片名可是它的剪輯手法或者是打碼版本不同那我們也瞭解﹐因為剪輯完之後呈現出來的所以它分級就不同那這個他們在YT看到的是符合那個框架的歷史框架已經有一個等於是三級那個阻攔性的防護那至於在巴哈呢巴哈的版本他把"},{"start":18675.999,"end":18690.877,"text":"自動把它升級,變成嚴格年齡限制,所以變成同一部片,兩個平台那個分級管制不同,那其實是巴哈加碼的管制,所以管制得更嚴,巴哈的平台是,那目前了解是這樣子,那跟委員會報"},{"start":18692.364,"end":18710.158,"text":"所以我提供這樣的一個訊息,基本上你們就可以馬上去掌握、去調查、去了解嗎?對不對?好,那就是事後,就是說我們事先的一個監管的機制是存在的、是必然、是必要在做的嗎?"},{"start":18710.979,"end":18727.492,"text":"也不需要說因為有發生什麼事情我來提醒你們你們才去做這樣的一個一個一個一個一個怎麼樣調查去瞭解嘛那個基本上是業者自律那些框架是業者要去遵循的對只要那個民眾向艾運檢舉"},{"start":18728.433,"end":18747.918,"text":"IWIN就會去處理就會去檢視那個內容然後是不是符合分級如果不符合分級就會通知業者自律看是要下架或者是進一步處理如果沒有進一步處理可能如果涉及違法就會移送社政或警政機關來處理這是我強調的是我們政府單位可以主動"},{"start":18749.369,"end":18776.975,"text":"去審視這些內容才是正道啊。」那個巡邏齁是這個目前能力不夠那目前還是靠業者自律啦靠業者自律如果說有檢舉事件那個iWIN就會積極介入處理你一定期盼要有人檢舉是要幫我處理不是這樣吧對目前iWIN是這樣子因為是能力有限那我現在提供這些網路的社群勒"},{"start":18778.767,"end":18806.545,"text":"網路的社群如果是涉及APP的話不是不是你管不是IWIN來管因為如果像遊戲的話是那個誰管是那個速發部產業署在分級在處理但是這些不是這些不是都遊戲啊這個交友軟體或者是那個APP也是速發部產業署在處理是嗎那請主角上來"},{"start":18808.692,"end":18831.476,"text":"交流並不是你。」那個報告委員首先謝謝委員上次有提醒那個遊戲分級跟Google不一致的部分謝謝委員很好的提醒那其實我們後來事後有去了解因為主要是這樣子我們那個遊戲分級是我們透過自律組織然後國家會定在國內市售所有的遊戲分級那當然我們的分級就會有0、12、15跟"},{"start":18835.817,"end":18863.529,"text":"限制級就是18禁那謝謝委員有觀察到就主要是Google他在上架他有自己公司的審核制度那只是他那個審核的制度跟我們沒有對上但是他還是有一個叫18禁18禁但是我們現在很重要是18禁是大家非常關切的事情因為他有個12我們有15就才那後來我們發現也委員很仔細我們查了一下我們分級有總共13款是限制級然後去看對應到Google裡面"},{"start":18864.009,"end":18892.648,"text":"他剛好就是委員看到那兩款就是他標示不一樣那我們現在已經有跟Google講假設因為兒少大家都很關切假設我這邊是18禁你一定要有18禁所以我們已經有跟Google協調以後我們都會加強去做性格所以我這邊18你就一定要給我18也不用任何的審議啊審核公司內部的規定所以這邊也謝謝委員那事後我們的做法是我們在我們這邊有18禁的話我們也會在網路上去看有沒有"},{"start":18893.388,"end":18919.562,"text":"跟Google不一樣的。我們如果有發現,主動去跟Google做聯繫。」這邊先跟委員說謝謝。謝謝了。所以是因為有提醒,所以現在你們18禁,他們就要比照你們18禁就對了,對不對?好。你們現在也會變成主動的去來審視這些?近期去找,找完之後再勾結。如果業者,如果我們有看到他也自己不去處理的話,我們後續會做一些適當的處置。OK。我現在講的這些勒?"},{"start":18925.126,"end":18945.683,"text":"這邊交友的部分我們是負責遊戲交友的部分現在院裡面大概有在做協調交友的這個主管機關現在目前是主要是給內政部來去處理這件事情因為這個交友的部分那現在還在剩最後的一些處理這個我不方便回答謝謝那今天內政部有來嗎警政署來"},{"start":18954.946,"end":18978.92,"text":"你有聽到啦齁?交友就是你內政部喔?內政部有另外一個時務部這一個議題有在內政部裡面討論過多久會有個結果?因為我看那個期程應該是這一個月內大概就會有消息他會提到行政院層級來做討論"},{"start":18982.949,"end":19000.084,"text":"提到行政院的成績來討論,所以這個月應該會有結果就對了。這個月快到了喔,那我就等你。是這個月還是下個月?下個月。就確定是由誰來組織就對了。謝謝主席,謝謝。"},{"start":19003.885,"end":19018.801,"text":"好,謝謝劉建國委員發言。接下來請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員不在。那本日會議詢答全部結束。委員楊耀、盧憲一、蘇清泉、鍾嘉斌、牛許廷"},{"start":19019.361,"end":19038.614,"text":"所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報,現在做以下決定,報告及詢答完畢,委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者,請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆,委員另要求期限者從其所定。本日會議到此結束,現在休息,星期四上午九點繼續開會。"},{"start":19065.811,"end":19066.323,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生福利部部長、國家通訊專題報告：一、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、"}]}},{"id":"151713","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151713","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb32a159d98b7d6efa86abc9c09ba589754c68e374cd8c4bed055e27d19183d88005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"09:11:26 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Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":145,"end_time":"2024-04-24T09:28:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T09:26:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6215937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.9715937500000003,"end":2.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.3890937500000002,"end":93.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.85596875,"end":137.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.80659375000002,"end":140.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.27471875,"end":142.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.67534375,"end":142.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.23221875000002,"end":144.70034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":2.015,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計7案。"},{"start":3.404,"end":8.965,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":32.23,"end":37.452,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":60.742,"end":65.084,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":88.712,"end":91.853,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":113.42,"end":127.69,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":143.511,"end":143.876,"text":"審查內政部"}]}},{"id":"151710","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151710","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3c14cecc3feac90846abc9c09ba589754c68e374cd8c4bed09cea193b8358d2b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:24:21 - 09:26:07","影片長度":"00:01:46","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":106,"end_time":"2024-04-24T09:26:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T09:24:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":78.16221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.65159375,"end":97.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.64346875000001,"end":104.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.17909375,"end":106.54596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":6.012,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":16.038,"end":21.782,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":32.069,"end":50.481,"text":"進行收出養媒合集規劃為現行能透過該途徑取得國籍之兒少人為少數。為了落實兒童權利公約精神本席特意提出國籍法第二條及第七條條維修正草案。重點如下。第一,國籍法第二條第一項第三款規定出生於中華民國領域內"},{"start":51.161,"end":69.69,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":78.735,"end":97.427,"text":"也降低兒少在等待過程中的身心影響。第二、考量部分國家之法令或政策不允許放棄原屬國國籍或虛擬一定年齡以上使得放棄原屬國籍,故增訂辦書,必須保障規劃人之未成年子女於過渡期之權益。以上說明,請您獲得各位委員的支持。謝謝。好,第七個了。好,謝謝我們蘇巧"}]}},{"id":"151709","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151709","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3d1e1bbfdd2e110646abc9c09ba589754c68e374cd8c4bed005516ffde792dc4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:21:28 - 09:23:50","影片長度":"00:02:22","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":142,"end_time":"2024-04-24T09:23:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T09:21:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":137.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.34221875,"end":142.08471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.489,"end":23.196,"text":"謝謝主席那今天的國籍法修正當中呢我有一個提案是關於協助具有臺灣學員的運動員取得國籍的條文現行的國籍法二條二項的設計是這一次國籍法修正當中調整了過去只有中華民國國籍父系子女可以取得國籍的條件改成父母親如果是中華民國的子女都可以取得國籍"},{"start":23.496,"end":29.239,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。五、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。六、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。"},{"start":51.63,"end":55.813,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":81.593,"end":84.878,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。五、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。"},{"start":98.777,"end":103.319,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":118.864,"end":136.976,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心111年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"}]}},{"id":"151708","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151708","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3c71b94342ccdbff06abc9c09ba589754c68e374cd8c4bed01429c243362692245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"09:19:40 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Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":90,"end_time":"2024-04-24T09:21:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T09:19:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":90.16034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.102218750000006,"end":57.304718750000006}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.209,"end":9.015,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":16.019,"end":27.941,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管"},{"start":45.345,"end":53.331,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":72.126,"end":76.571,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"}]}},{"id":"151707","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151707","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb33ada2f36e1a865d46abc9c09ba589754c68e374cd8c4bed013912a9c72435c4b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:17:54 - 09:19:24","影片長度":"00:01:30","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":90,"end_time":"2024-04-24T09:19:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T09:17:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.69721875,"end":18.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.20534375,"end":90.05909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.953,"end":28.169,"text":"本期針對國際法第4條及第7條提出修正法案主要是因為建議我國民法修正後已經將成年年齡調降到18歲而且自民國112年1月1日起實施為使國際法可以配合民法對於涉及外籍人士相關年齡規範也用年齡來表示時期能有一致性的規定所以特別提出相關的這個修法的提案"},{"start":28.769,"end":32.253,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":50.251,"end":50.731,"text":"臺灣最美的風景是冷"},{"start":65.247,"end":71.332,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"}]}},{"id":"151706","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151706","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3ce54a7badc5a74af6abc9c09ba589754c68e374cd8c4bed013912a9c72435c4b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:14:53 - 09:17:43","影片長度":"00:02:50","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":170,"end_time":"2024-04-24T09:17:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T09:14:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":97.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.06221875,"end":70.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.93971875000001,"end":169.47284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.11,"end":26.98,"text":"這次國籍法的修法本席是針對無國籍兒童在入籍我國以及專業人才規劃修訂了第4條及增訂第6條之一。以下本席分別提案說明根據移民署的統計累計自96年1月到113年1月底移民署接收之非本國籍新生兒通報有16869人"},{"start":29.121,"end":37.867,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":59.201,"end":68.192,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":79.886,"end":88.492,"text":"原提案修正國籍法第4條,其監會人為法院裁定之社會福利主管機關者,得申請規劃國國國籍。現在世界各國目前都面臨少子化、缺工及搶購。"},{"start":98.018,"end":105.962,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":122.99,"end":127.594,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":148.209,"end":165.647,"text":"原提案增訂第6條之一規定有特殊專業技能必經政府機關或民間企業聘任專職開放期只需連續在臺灣居留2年而且平均每年居住183日以上或居留繼續5年以上者亦可申請規劃。"}]}},{"id":"151705","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151705","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3c1e2e9e8ac945cd46abc9c09ba589754c68e374cd8c4bed017d79b1bd4332cdd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:01:58 - 11:11:29","影片長度":"00:09:31","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":571,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:11:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:01:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":601,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時2分）謝謝主席。本席有請林部長，還有警政署副署長。"],["主席：請部長跟副署長。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長，還有副署長，本席首先要就取締飆車噪音的問題簡單討論。現在全臺灣各地民眾對於飆車噪音都非常反感，各地方也都在取締，但現在取締發生非常大的問題，就是攔查一定要警察，可是開單跟測噪音是環保，可能就是各地的環保局來處理。現在第一線發現一個問題，就是常常會同警察到現場，可能等待到一半，警察突然說哪裡有車禍要去處理就跑走了，或是被通知哪裡要做什麼就跑走了，對於飆車噪音的取締工作造成非常大的問題，所以這個部分是不是警政署可以對全國有確切的，譬如教育訓練或者是你們在調度警力的部分，應該要有所看怎麼樣子的處理？也就是他正在執行這個勤務，怎麼可以突然間就跑走去其他地方？這樣變成飆車噪音完全沒有辦法取締。"],["陳副署長永利：謝謝委員對於我們同仁執勤的關心。我想我們跟環保單位，甚至監理單位都有非常明確的分工。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你暫停，因為時間很少。我已經很明確的說，本來就有分工，我現在說的是你們就跑走了，因為時間關係，這一塊請書面回復，好不好？請你務必書面回復。"],["林部長右昌：因為這個是屬於地方基層警察執勤的狀況，你是不是可以方便把相關資料提供給我們？我們回頭來瞭解。"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以，沒問題。接著我們還要針對源頭，其實會有這樣的噪音，不管是轎車或機車，是不是就是機車或者是轎車的修理廠在改裝？行政單位，特別是中央，是不是可以提案？當然我們委員也會做，但行政院也應該要有版本，我們就是去提案，針對這一些違法的，就要有法律來規範，他根本連裝都不能裝這種這麼大噪音的設備，就算他裝了也不應該用。對於這種會產生大量噪音的，我們應該要修法，從源頭就應該要修法，這樣警察也不用那麼累，一直取締，因為本來就不應該有這麼大的噪音產生！針對這個部分，我們希望警政署、內政部可以提案。","接著本席要就今天內政部相關解凍案來質詢。部長，解凍案的所有報告，我相信您那麼繁忙一定沒看過，但是本席跟我的幕僚整個看完的感覺，就是這個解凍案的報告好像沒有打算要給委員看，等於是敷衍了事，不然就答非所問。我們很快的舉幾個例子，內政資訊業務凍結200萬，要求內政部能夠做相關的評估報告，結果解凍報告說，會持續蒐集各界的意見，持續蒐集各界意見符合原來提案凍結的目的嗎？沒有！接著新式身分證後續推動工作，將由個人資料保護委員會進行政策、資安以及法制方面的意見整合，這個很有趣，個人資料保護委員會根本都還沒有存在，可能是還在籌備的單位，解凍報告就直接回復，後續的工作會由這個委員會來進行相關的整合，但這個委員會根本還沒產生，所以是不是這個解凍案就不要解凍，就繼續凍？你們的報告寫得好像就是要告訴所有委員不要解凍，因為你們也都還做不來。再來戶役政資訊服務費的解凍100萬，凍結的理由寫說，部分業務可由單位專業人員辦理來減少公帑支出，也就是第10屆的委員說，應該由專業人員辦理來減少公帑支出，結果解凍報告說，如果這個凍結就無法順利委外辦理。這不就是直接打臉提案委員？你這樣打臉提案委員，卻還希望解凍。這是第二個。再來還有更好笑的，就是住都中心業務成本和費用的預算解凍案，整個業務成本跟費用編列了十七億六千多萬元，只凍結100萬，結果報告寫說，凍結這100萬將導致新辦業務沒有預算可供支應，導致業務無法順利推動，你有17億，然後被凍結100萬，你的解凍報告就說，凍結這100萬會沒有預算可供支應。其實像這些言過其實、不然敷衍了事、不然答非所問的，我們真的能夠幫你解凍嗎？你自己個人的意見如何？"],["林部長右昌：委員，是不是容許我們簡單跟你說明一下？好不好？"],["徐委員欣瑩：這很明確啊！我講出來的這一些，這樣寫出來，我們怎麼讓它解凍呢？"],["林部長右昌：第一個是數位身分證的部分，因為之前數位身分證沒有辦法繼續往下推，有幾個原因：第一、要有專責的機關單位，所以……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這些我們都知道，但我現在跟你說的是，報告這樣寫是不是就是敷衍或者根本答非所問？你隨便寫一寫，你覺得堆了一堆文字來，我們就會解凍，其實這是非常不好的民主示範。"],["林部長右昌：這個應該是簡短的口頭報告說明。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有！這是在你們的關係文書中的，這不是你們的口頭，也不是你們的書面報告，我們是看你們送來的關係文書，所以這一塊真的你回去要……因為時間的關係，最後……"],["林部長右昌：後面有詳細的說明。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這就是你們詳細的說明，非常的可笑！幾乎是要逼著委員不要解凍。"],["林部長右昌：沒有啦！那個是簡短的，後面還是有詳細說明。"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，沒有，我們有看嘛！","最後本席提一個問題，謝謝主席再給我一點點時間。危老重建一直是臺灣建築老化的重要策略，但是我們現在看危老重建，以臺北市最新統計，核准920件危老案件，其中96件備註失其效力，就是說沒有辦法做的有96件，而失效案件更有71件是因為面積未達150坪的小型基地開發案，這中間的困難就在於營造成本過高，施工難度高，廠商無意承攬，像這一些問題，是不是政府可以集中處理？面對這種推動的困境，內政部是不是可以在下個會期開議前研擬對策，提出書面報告，送本院內政委員會？就是有關危老重建很多推動困難的部分，內政部是不是可以在下個會期開議前提出書面報告？"],["林部長右昌：可以。"],["徐委員欣瑩：可以，好，OK。有關解凍案的部分，本席的意見已經表達了，部長需要做最後的回應嗎？"],["林部長右昌：有需要的話，我再請同仁跟委員說明，這在後面都有詳細的資料。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員。"],["主席（吳委員琪銘）：好，謝謝徐欣瑩委員的發言。","下一位請丁學忠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-14","speakers":["吳琪銘","莊瑞雄","羅美玲","陳玉珍","黃捷","陳培瑜","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","吳沛憶","王美惠","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","李柏毅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","黃國昌","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳菁徽","陳冠廷","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案；二、審查內政\n部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)\n行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六\n條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國\n籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員\n林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員莊\n瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案、 (十五)委員林岱樺等\n17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四\n條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.25346875,"end":16.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.37846875,"end":21.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.825343750000002,"end":20.500343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.500343750000003,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.67721875,"end":23.132843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.53346875,"end":67.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.85159375,"end":84.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.18221875,"end":92.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.48909375000001,"end":113.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.98784375000001,"end":114.62909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.06784375000001,"end":115.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.47659375,"end":122.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.96534375,"end":123.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.11721875,"end":127.06596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.38659375,"end":130.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.33971875,"end":130.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.42409375,"end":130.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.62659375,"end":130.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.96409375000002,"end":142.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.38409375,"end":153.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.15909375,"end":220.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.53846875000002,"end":155.04471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.72221875000002,"end":227.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.84346875000003,"end":244.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.60034375,"end":253.59471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.76346875000002,"end":282.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.07534375,"end":294.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.70221875000004,"end":299.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.32159375000003,"end":306.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.98284375000003,"end":322.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.95096875,"end":336.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.14721875000004,"end":351.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.99284375,"end":352.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.44409375000004,"end":363.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.60284375000003,"end":388.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.83096875,"end":398.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.36534375,"end":400.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.52096875,"end":404.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.11534375,"end":412.40534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.43909375000004,"end":424.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.03659375,"end":440.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.40346875,"end":424.96034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.00846875,"end":447.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.15096875,"end":464.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.73096875000005,"end":462.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.19909375000003,"end":466.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.19034375,"end":468.83534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.37534375,"end":473.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.34534375000004,"end":475.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.53471875,"end":503.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.03659375,"end":539.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.3515937500001,"end":546.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.9665937500001,"end":550.0715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":551.2865937500001,"end":552.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.24846875,"end":552.6028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.65346875,"end":556.1128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":556.70346875,"end":558.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.25159375,"end":561.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":561.51284375,"end":562.4409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.60971875,"end":568.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.70159375,"end":570.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.2078437499999,"end":570.06846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.125,"end":12.23,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":24.619,"end":39.512,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管"},{"start":49.38,"end":58.068,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":67.938,"end":73.363,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":85.353,"end":96.059,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":118.536,"end":119.396,"text":"請書面回覆,請你務必書面回覆。"},{"start":143.702,"end":167.852,"text":"委員,因為這個是屬於地方基層警察在執勤的狀況,你是不是可以方便把相關資料提供給我們?可以可以,沒問題。接著我們還要針對源頭,其實會有這樣的噪音,不管是轎車或機車,它是不是就是改裝的機車或者是轎車的修理廠?"},{"start":168.772,"end":172.656,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":187.873,"end":194.477,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":210.546,"end":226.18,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。五、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。六、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。"},{"start":228.441,"end":236.063,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":254.808,"end":281.217,"text":"你持續收集各界意見這個是符合原來提案凍結的目的嗎?沒有。接著新式身份證後續推動工作將由個人資料保護委員會進行政策、資安以及法治方面的意見整合。這個很有趣你個人資料保護委員會根本都還沒有存在可能還在籌備的單位你就直接回覆解凍報告說你會"},{"start":283.177,"end":291.063,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":308.038,"end":315.582,"text":"互譯證資訊私訊服務費解凍100萬。解凍理由就寫說部分業務可由單位專業人員辦理來減少公帑支出。就是凍結的理由也就第10屆的委員就說你應該由專業人員辦理來減少公帑支出。結果解凍報告就說"},{"start":333.391,"end":344.14,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":353.439,"end":375.488,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管"},{"start":382.111,"end":399.145,"text":"解凍報告就說凍結這100萬我會沒有預算可供之應其實像這類的部長像這些言過其實不然敷衍了事不然答非所問的那我們真的能夠幫你解凍嗎你自己個人的意見委員是不是容許我們簡單跟你做說明一下好不好"},{"start":405.749,"end":410.513,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":429.451,"end":433.676,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":441.195,"end":468.394,"text":"委員這個應該是簡短簡短的部分然後這個口頭的報告說明沒有沒有沒有我是我沒有這是在你們的這是關關西文書中的這不是你們的口頭也不是你們的書面報告我們是看你們送來的關西文書所以這一塊真的你回去你要那個因為時間的關係最後最後後面都有詳細的說明後面有詳細的說明就是你們詳細的說明這非常的可笑"},{"start":469.335,"end":470.996,"text":"維老重建一直是台灣建築老化的重要策略。"},{"start":487.501,"end":503.212,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心118年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心118年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":504.153,"end":516.358,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":521.92,"end":533.645,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":551.325,"end":557.494,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"}]}},{"id":"151704","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151704","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb34f7375e20a5181026abc9c09ba589754c68e374cd8c4bed03da6a207a82d1db15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:54:34 - 11:01:52","影片長度":"00:07:18","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":438,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:01:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:54:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":577,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時54分）謝謝主席。請內政部林部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好。部長，4月23日凌晨，花蓮又發生了兩起6.0規模的地震，導致原本就已經受損的統帥跟富凱大飯店更為傾斜。請問部長，最近餘震頻傳，內政部是不是有再繼續勘察受災的狀況，目前最新的紅單有幾件、黃單有幾件？"],["林部長右昌：我們持續都在進行當中，目前我們通報危險建物的總件數是2,019件，已派案評估是1,996件，張貼紅單累計是76件，另外黃單的部分是148件。"],["許委員宇甄：這是到目前為止最新的數據？"],["林部長右昌：對。"],["許委員宇甄：請教一下，有專家表示因為這兩天的餘震很頻繁，而且非常的異常，如果發生海溝巨型地震，臺北有可能會搖到3分鐘，擺動的幅度也會比403跟921都大很多，所以請內政部針對這個部分應該要提醒地方政府做出相關的因應，比如紅、黃單的大樓儘快加固，或者內政部有沒有什麼要提醒地方應該要做出相關的因應？"],["林部長右昌：是，地方政府都在進行當中，貼紅單的部分，就是它的建築物結構有受損，這經過評估之後，可能是必須要拆除，另外如果評估不需要拆除，那就是進行補強。從4月3日到現在，大概是20天的時間，說實在的，如果是比較嚴重受損的，其實到目前為止，它還沒有辦法做實際上的補強工作，所以在昨天發生兩個6級地震的時候，有一些建築物之前已經受損，所以它會再進一步受損，我們當然是請地方政府做相關建築物的檢查，這部分都持續在進行當中。"],["許委員宇甄：好，謝謝部長，可能這部分我們要特別注意人民的安全。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["許委員宇甄：另外，再請部長看一下我們ppt上面解凍報告的文字，這是針對這一次的解凍案，各位可以看到我現在匡起來的部分，之前有提到「俟本部就前行政院長賴清德於107年換發數位身分證政策、110年前行政院長蘇貞昌暫緩數位身分證計畫及111年審計部之決算報告後，本部之相關評估報告、立場態度與向行政院之建議等提供說明，並於3個月內，向大院內政委員會提出書面報告後，始得動之。」字面的意思很清楚，當時提案就是要請內政部說明對數位身分證政策是不是繼續執行的態度，及向行政院提供的建議跟說明。部長，可是今天內政部送來的解凍報告並沒有提出說明，尤其你還可以看到你們的結論，這一段話講的就是要繼續推動數位身分證，確保各系統的建置跟管理，以及專案的履行如期如質執行，落實資安規範，還須投入更多的資源，所以希望爭取更多的經費。請問部長，數位身分證的政策已經跟廠商進行仲裁和解，未來要如何繼續推動？還有，數位身分證的管理專法何時可以送到立法院審查？另外，個資法的保護專責機構何時可以成立？在兩個保證都沒有狀況之下，數位身分證要如何繼續執行？"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告，有關專責的單位，個資的籌備處在去年的12月已經成立，所以後續我們會依籌備處這邊的意見來做相關後續的進行。"],["許委員宇甄：在您的報告裡面，看起來數位身分證會繼續的推動，所以這樣的結論寫出來，看起來像是要叫我們解凍嗎？"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告，因為現在行政院還沒有做最後政策的決定，所以我們在報告裡面沒有辦法去跟委員說它不繼續推動下去，或者是它繼續推動下去，不過目前我們已經在做相關的……"],["許委員宇甄：不過這個解凍報告是今天提出來，今天我們在審的嘛！我想針對仲裁和解的部分，其實在之前都已經確定，就是會賠償2.8億，今天的報告卻還寫成一副好像要繼續推動的樣子，這個要叫我們怎麼解凍？","再來，上次我諮詢陳瑞敏審計長的時候，他也特別提到，跟他們的估算也差不多，數位身分證到目前為止已經花了14億，也就是我們什麼都還沒做，就已經浪費了14億，而且每年還要繼續支付6,375萬的維護費。請問部長，如果數位身分證的政策繼續推動，未來是不是要重新招標？因為你已經跟原來的廠商仲裁和解了。如果不是現在的東元電機得標，這些設備還能夠用嗎？所以這些年的維運費是不是就會浪費掉了？這樣的計畫繼續執行可能會浪費更多預算，有沒有考慮直接停掉該計畫？"],["林部長右昌：有關經費的部分，實際上，我們支出的經費是10.85億，這個非常清楚，可以會後再跟委員詳細說明。"],["許委員宇甄：所以審計部估算的是錯的就對了，是嗎？"],["林部長右昌：我相信審計不會，不過明確的數字非常清楚，是10.85億，會後再跟委員報告。委員提到的機器設備能不能使用，機器是可以的，但是晶片的部分可能還要另外採購。"],["許委員宇甄：所以表示不同的廠商得標之後，可能就會有不同的狀況發生。針對這個部分，因為我們現在也成立數位身分證的調閱小組，所以您剛剛提的，我們也都會申請調閱來釐清所有問題。"],["林部長右昌：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員。","再來請徐欣瑩委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-14","speakers":["吳琪銘","莊瑞雄","羅美玲","陳玉珍","黃捷","陳培瑜","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","吳沛憶","王美惠","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","李柏毅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","黃國昌","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳菁徽","陳冠廷","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案；二、審查內政\n部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)\n行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六\n條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國\n籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員\n林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員莊\n瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案、 (十五)委員林岱樺等\n17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四\n條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.35409375,"end":14.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.04971875,"end":15.927218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.67721875,"end":24.145343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.44909375,"end":32.751593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.93721875,"end":34.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.74284375,"end":41.189093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.37471875,"end":45.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.38659375,"end":49.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.16221875,"end":53.440343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.744093750000005,"end":61.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.337843750000005,"end":67.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.21034375,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.84721875000001,"end":69.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.47159375000001,"end":85.50284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.58721875,"end":92.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.23596875000001,"end":100.04909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.48784375000001,"end":111.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.37221875,"end":135.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.27971875,"end":145.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.37534375,"end":148.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.90221875,"end":164.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.72909375,"end":150.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.12534375,"end":152.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.17159375,"end":153.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.03471875000002,"end":169.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.81034375000002,"end":175.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.17659375000002,"end":186.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.63471875000002,"end":188.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.99721875,"end":192.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.28784375,"end":196.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.67534375000002,"end":218.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.05159375000002,"end":220.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.65471875,"end":238.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.42409375000003,"end":243.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.85784375000003,"end":249.81471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.13534375,"end":252.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.51471875000001,"end":257.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.00721875,"end":273.25409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.23284375000003,"end":279.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.36284375,"end":279.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.37534375,"end":284.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.52659375,"end":287.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.74971875,"end":287.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.96909375,"end":298.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.02221875000004,"end":308.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.91096875,"end":314.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.50534375,"end":313.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.95221875000004,"end":329.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.05534375,"end":359.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.48534375,"end":368.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.08721875000003,"end":372.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.56346875,"end":381.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.51534375,"end":386.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.62034375,"end":388.22346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.86471875,"end":397.47096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.28971875,"end":400.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.30596875000003,"end":420.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.29846875000004,"end":436.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.99221875,"end":437.46471875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.42,"end":11.802,"text":"請內政部林部長。"},{"start":25.395,"end":38.04,"text":"4月23日凌晨花蓮又發生兩起6.0規模地震,導致原本就已經受損的統帥及富凱大飯店更為傾斜。請問部長,最近餘震頻傳,內政部是不是有再繼續勘查受災的狀況?目前最新的紅單有幾件,黃單有幾件?我們持續都在進行當中,目前"},{"start":51.636,"end":56.723,"text":"我們通報危險件物的總件數是2019件,那以派案評估是1996件。張天紅單是累計是76件,另外黃單的部分是148件。"},{"start":67.239,"end":72.381,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":92.328,"end":96.771,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":115.543,"end":122.848,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":136.337,"end":144.899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- 09:59:32","影片長度":"00:07:12","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":432,"end_time":"2024-04-24T09:59:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T09:52:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":294,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（9時52分）主席，請花次。"],["主席：請我們花次長。"],["花次長敬群：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：花次早。我來延續蘇巧慧委員剛才說的小孩的國籍問題，剛才我們有探討到，一千多個孩子到後來可以入我們國籍的只有19個小孩，你們有規定國外要找的是3個月，如果找不到，我們就可以處理，國內的是6個月，你們說如果兩方面都找不到的時候，就可以入我們臺灣的國籍。你們還有說到社福會做的，本席要跟你說的是社福單位有認真去做嗎？只有19個孩子可以入我們的國籍，我覺得這是令人非常擔憂的。尤其你看這些小孩的渴望性，在他們這麼小的時候，你、我都不願意讓他們在臺灣沒辦法擁有他們的權利以及保護，請花次說一下3個月和6個月的差別，有需要讓它一致嗎？"],["花次長敬群：謝謝委員關心這個話題。現在其實有一個困擾是，我們在規定裡面，有一個是母親所屬國家的政府也要同意，特別是印尼，他們其實是不願意同意放棄國籍變成臺灣國籍的，所以這裡面還有一些國際上面、政府之間對於這件事情處理的順暢度要去解決。所以說我們在面對這種課題的時候，我們會讓這個所謂的黑戶寶寶先用外籍居留的方式留在臺灣，他可以上學、他可以有健保，都可以！至於國籍這個部分，跨到取得中華民國國籍這個問題，我們再來精進。當然今天委員這麼說，我們瞭解到過去可能我們處理得不夠快，我們來檢討怎麼樣讓它更順利、快一點。"],["王委員美惠：花次長，因為我覺得我們要找出這裡面的問題，你看有這麼多孩子，到最後只有十幾個小孩可以留在臺灣，你想想看，講難聽一點，剛才坐在那裡大家同事在討論的時候，我說還有被趕出去的，說實在的，對一個小孩來說，我們有很多不周全的地方。"],["花次長敬群：是的，我們也很捨不得。"],["王委員美惠：對啊！你想想看這麼多小孩要由社福單位去評估，但是說實在的，他們是有認真還是沒認真？對不對？這要改進一下。"],["花次長敬群：好，這個我們來檢討。"],["王委員美惠：剛才我跟你說話，你要來開會的時候有覺得頭暈暈的嗎？會嗎？"],["花次長敬群：沒有，昨晚睡得很好。"],["王委員美惠：這樣喔！為什麼我會問你頭暈暈的事，在0403即4月3號花蓮地震之後，4月23號一整天，到隔天的六點多還在搖，同時我們看到花蓮在23號那天又有房屋倒塌。你們所認定的紅單和黃單，尤其在花蓮紅單有25張，黃單有19張，有關危險建築的認定，你覺得應該是用紅單、黃單來認定的嗎？因為花蓮倒塌的這間房子沒有紅單，也沒有黃單，這是什麼原因呢？政府說因為他們在4月3號沒有申請鑑定，就算有申請鑑定，真的來得及嗎？20天的時間有辦法去鑑定嗎？請花次說明一下。"],["花次長敬群：跟委員報告，因為富凱飯店並沒有申請鑑定，而且它內部還在整理、正在整修，並沒有申請鑑定，所以我們沒辦法強制業者要讓我們檢查它的耐震結構到底好不好。"],["王委員美惠：本席的意思是陳院長有成立一個專案。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["王委員美惠：就趕快拆除它的違章建築，協助地方嘛！我是要說，大家都知道被貼紅單的建築會隨時倒下，但是23號倒塌的這一間房屋既沒有紅單，也沒有黃單，誠如你剛剛所說的，因為沒有申請，政府也沒辦法去強制管理。未來像這種動一動就倒塌的，是不是需要中央怎麼樣和地方配合？因為地震是沒辦法預料的，颱風、下雨還可以提早告訴百姓要注意什麼、注意什麼，但是地震就是沒辦法提早預告這幾天要注意。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["王委員美惠：在這其中有什麼可以讓百姓更快瞭解的部分？"],["花次長敬群：跟委員報告，基本上，現在耐震初評的費用幾乎全數是由中央補助，所以我們真的還是要積極呼籲，對於這些擔憂自己的房子、自己的家有危險的，都可以透過地方政府來申請，我們都會全額下去協助，也會跟公會建立初評、詳評的平臺，其實現在協助評鑑的團隊是很成熟的，經費也都有、政策也都有，我們只有多宣傳……"],["王委員美惠：專業的人也都有，民眾隨時要申請都可以，差不多要多久可以去看這間大樓？"],["花次長敬群：這可能要再去瞭解一下，好不好？我去瞭解之後再向委員報告。"],["王委員美惠：是不是會後可以向本席報告？"],["花次長敬群：好。"],["王委員美惠：因為我們要讓百姓瞭解，其實申請來鑑定大樓的時候，他們也不在乎這個錢是多少，重點是要怎麼樣協助他們儘快鑑定這個地方。以上。"],["花次長敬群：瞭解。謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王美惠委員的發言。下一位請牛煦庭委員，謝謝。現在林右昌部長已經來到立法院內政委員會了。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-14","speakers":["吳琪銘","莊瑞雄","羅美玲","陳玉珍","黃捷","陳培瑜","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","吳沛憶","王美惠","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","李柏毅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","黃國昌","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳菁徽","陳冠廷","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案；二、審查內政\n部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)\n行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六\n條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國\n籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員\n林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員莊\n瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案、 (十五)委員林岱樺等\n17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四\n條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.27096875,"end":4.806593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.228468750000001,"end":6.730343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.333468750000002,"end":8.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.30346875,"end":11.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.37096875,"end":11.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.42159375,"end":11.607218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.607218750000001,"end":11.742218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.742218750000003,"end":11.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.29909375,"end":19.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.501593750000001,"end":14.121593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.38659375,"end":23.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.145343750000002,"end":27.149093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.452843750000003,"end":28.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.089718750000003,"end":30.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.40159375,"end":33.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.40971875,"end":36.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.35846875,"end":38.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.13034375,"end":41.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.37471875,"end":46.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.415968750000005,"end":48.782843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.45784375,"end":49.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.98096875,"end":50.031593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.065343750000004,"end":52.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.83284375,"end":54.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.65534375,"end":55.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.88721875,"end":58.789718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.14409375,"end":60.88221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.11409375,"end":63.73409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.64534375000001,"end":67.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.69971875,"end":68.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.35346875,"end":71.80034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.15471875,"end":74.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.09096875,"end":76.45784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.74471875,"end":78.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.76971875000001,"end":79.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.83284375000001,"end":81.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.75659375000001,"end":85.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.77284375,"end":94.36221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.53596875000001,"end":89.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.36221875000001,"end":105.98909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.30159375000001,"end":104.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.25909375,"end":109.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.25846875,"end":136.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.32596875,"end":110.81534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.76846875000001,"end":114.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.23409375,"end":131.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.50409375,"end":131.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.17409375,"end":149.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.31159375000001,"end":148.61534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.57721875000001,"end":157.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.55909375000002,"end":158.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.16221875000002,"end":160.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.13659375,"end":161.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.23346875000001,"end":164.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.39784375000002,"end":164.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.54534375,"end":167.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.98784375000002,"end":168.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.25346875000002,"end":171.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.08846875,"end":173.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.23159375,"end":175.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.59409375,"end":178.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.39534375000002,"end":181.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.47096875,"end":183.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.56784375,"end":185.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.12034375000002,"end":188.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.74409375000002,"end":191.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.49471875,"end":192.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.64221875,"end":194.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.07221875000002,"end":195.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.73034375,"end":198.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.77221875,"end":199.27409375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13:48:53","影片長度":"00:18:56","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":1136,"end_time":"2024-04-24T13:48:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T13:29:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1404,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（13時30分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請衛福部薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好，請部長看一下資料，這個是昨天新北市某醫院被爆料護理師偷拍病人私密照一事，不曉得部長有沒有掌握？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前是新北市衛生局在調查當中。"],["劉委員建國：新北市衛生局在調查？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：我先不討論內容、動機是什麼，但是我現在給部長看歷年來醫療單位病患照片外流的事件，你看2011年新北亞東醫院、2014年臺東馬偕醫院、2017年臺北醫學大學附設醫院，我沒記錯的話，它應該有2次。2021年就最近而已，2年前，嘉義聖馬爾定醫院。這些都發生在手術過程中偷拍患者照片，並上傳網路社群，這確實把病患的照片流出，po網或不當使用，我想這是一個好像長期以來持續在發生的問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：可能都有散在的一些個案，但是基本上應該不是說很常見。"],["劉委員建國：我再給部長看一個資料，這是網友的對話，他說某次跟朋友聚餐，朋友的朋友是急診室醫師，聊著聊著就拿出手機開始秀傷患的患部照片給大家看，看得實在很不舒服，現在回想起來，這個行為是不是跟剛剛講的那個事件有點類似？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是不清楚看到的是什麼東西，不過這種行為跟剛剛講的手術室的照片流出的情形，例如說這次的案件情形是不太一樣的。這種時常是醫生非常臭屁，他在炫耀治療了什麼病人、多嚴重、多會開刀，就會拿一些照片出來，如果是在開刀房拍的，有時候是基於學術上面的，因為醫院裡面都有會議，他必須要把病人的狀況跟同儕相互討論，所以有時候是必要的，但是給其他不相關的人看，那個行為就不好了。"],["劉委員建國：不是，這樣講怪怪的，我都認真在聽，你說有些臭屁的，這種臭屁的多還是少？你有沒有掌握？"],["薛部長瑞元：這很困難，有一些醫師就是會自我標榜很厲害，給不相關的人看。"],["劉委員建國：我為什麼會這麼講？放到網路是會被知道，醫師私底下如你講的展現他的醫療技術或怎樣，或者發現什麼個案，他就可以這樣拿去給別人看？"],["薛部長瑞元：不應該。"],["劉委員建國：都不應該嘛！這個沒有規範嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這本來就有洩漏病人隱私的法條，但是舉證會比較困難，除非看的人願意出來作證。"],["劉委員建國：醫療法第七十二條規定醫療機構及其人員因業務而知悉或持有病人病情或健康資訊，不得無故洩漏。違反的話，依第一百零三條可以處5萬元以上25萬元以下罰鍰，明明有醫療法的規定在，怎麼類似的案件還層出不窮？衛福部在2015年把過去的門診醫療隱私維護規範改為醫療機構醫療隱私維護規範，從門診擴大到醫療機構全面適用，就是我拿的這張紙，總共715個字，我助理時間滿多的，還幫我算出總共715個字。這715個字裡面，到底有沒有落實去執行？是推廣不足？還是內容規範不夠？才會使相關人員有恃無恐，才會誠如部長所講的，還有這麼多臭屁的。"],["薛部長瑞元：這還是兩個方面，因為這些的規範是在醫療機構裡面，從事這些醫療業務，不管醫師或其他的人員，都必須要遵守。通常這一類行為的違反比較容易被看得到，但是剛剛委員提到的，有些個案是在手術室，手術室就是一個封閉的空間，病人已經麻醉的話，事實上他也不知情，靠的只有整個團隊互相舉發才有可能知道。另外一個情形就是剛才提到的，拿相片給朋友看，這就更屬於私德，看的人願意檢舉才看得到，因為他不是公開的。"],["劉委員建國：我要從另外一個角度去討論，這個會不會是一種陳疴、一種舊疾，舊有的疾病，從2015年的時候我們還去改這個規範，會讓我覺得是不是這種隱私違反的規範強度不夠，不然怎麼容許這樣的事情一而再、再而三的發生？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是覺得應該沒有到那樣子的程度，因為終究這種案件不多，是我剛剛提到的那一種，有一些會把這些照片拿去給朋友看，這種行為比較多，他的問題是如果要適用法規的時候舉證的困難度。"],["劉委員建國：部長說這個案件不多，我怕你講完這句話會跑出很多。"],["薛部長瑞元：應該不會。"],["劉委員建國：我還是建議部長，這個規範有沒有討論的空間，是不是加強規範的強度。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然，這個可以討論，這次的案件我們看看調查的結果是怎樣，如果屬實，在開刀房裡面真的有這樣的行為，這個部分就必須檢討我們整個規範是不是應該要有更強的強度。"],["劉委員建國：請部長重視這件事情，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["劉委員建國：為什麼我會提起這個事件，因為報導者提到連兒少的身體都有進行拍攝，誠如部長講的，如果是醫療教學用途，至少還是要獲得監護人的同意，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["劉委員建國：如果為了滿足私慾，甚至是要放到網路上供人閱覽等意圖，那又不一樣的狀況發生，所以我針對兒少性剝削也有提出修法版本，不過那天我強調的還是在前端，就是加強所有企圖以兒少影音、影像來圖利的罰則。這是在後端，後端不管罰多重，我一再強調前端的把關重要，如何避免兒少接觸到不適合的網站及內容，避免兒少的資訊流出，這其實是非常非常重要的一件事情。請部長再看一下這則報導，因為抖音未做好兒童隱私保護，遭歐盟重罰新臺幣117億元，這是創下抖音遭開罰的歷史新高紀錄，也是歐盟首度對這個社群開罰，你看罰款何其之重，對不對？人家多重視嘛！在使用軟體上，你看到我們對未成年的動畫、遊戲要怎麼分級保護，上週一樣在委員會，部長也在嘛！問了相關單位，也用了很多的案例給部長和相關人員參考，真的是落差太大了，主責單位好像也沒有即刻回應我怎樣可以更積極的作為，我記得好像是1個月的時間要提供給委員會參考。另外，去年在家扶基金會有公布兒少網路社群使用習慣調查，其中兒少使用網路社群負向經驗中，有超過2成的兒少會主動點擊進入標示未滿18歲警語的網頁，也有1成多會在網路上看到可怕血腥的內容。不只如此，我上週的質詢和現在的質詢其實還是希望政府相關單位更積極來介入管制，最主要的目的是這個樣子。在家扶的報告裡面，有一個更令人憂心的地方，我不曉得部長知道冰棒這個軟體嗎？就app。"],["薛部長瑞元：不清楚。"],["劉委員建國：年紀上有落差，國中、高中職使用過冰棒的多達3成，我是指這樣的年紀，你們亂笑就是隱諱部長的年紀有一些了，你們回去自己再好好處理。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個軟體我就不知道。"],["劉委員建國：冰棒的app，這你知道吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：不知道。"],["劉委員建國：這個app在Google平臺上顯示適合所有人，很多家長也同樣會用這款app來掌握小朋友的行蹤，同時可以互加好友，有時候就會變成有心人去掌握未成年所在地的app，雖然這個app已經在去年3月下架，但是類似交友的app仍不斷推出，而且在年齡上都是適合所有人，現在我把這些資料給部長參考，這些裡面會不會有我講的狀況持續再發生，這你們有掌握嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前當然是沒有，因為目前沒有一個機制可以去主動網上巡查，目前是沒有。"],["劉委員建國：今天數發部也有來，NCC也有來，這樣的事情到底要怎麼處理？我一直強調前端的管制、前端的處理，其實上個禮拜到現在應該一個禮拜多了。"],["詹主任文旭：委員好，NCC這邊先回報委員，委員上個禮拜質詢提到的「來自深淵烈日的黃金鄉」內容在YouTube和巴哈不同平臺、不同分級的狀況，我們有請iWIN去了解，看它的內容分級是不是符合現在的例示框架，根據iWIN檢視結果，YT的分級是符合的，因為有一些雖然是同一個片名，但是它的剪輯手法或打碼版本不同。"],["劉委員建國：因為剪輯完之後呈現出來的又不同？"],["詹主任文旭：它們在YT看到的是符合例示框架的，有一個是三級阻攔性的防護。至於在巴哈的版本，它自動把它升級，變成嚴格年齡限制，所以變成同一部片兩個平臺分級管制不同，其實是巴哈加碼了管制，管制得更嚴，目前了解是這樣子，跟委員回報。"],["劉委員建國：所以我提供這樣的一個訊息，基本上你們就可以馬上去掌握、去調查、去了解。"],["詹主任文旭：是的，我們就請iWIN去檢視、去了解。"],["劉委員建國：我們事先的監管機制是存在的，是必要的，也不需要因為發生什麼事情，我來提醒你們，你們才去做這樣的調查、了解。"],["詹主任文旭：基本上是業者自律，那些框架是業者要去遵循的，只要民眾向iWIN檢舉，iWIN就會去處理，就會去檢視內容是不是符合分級，如果不符合分級，就會通知業者自律，看是要下架或進一步處理，如果沒有進一步處理，涉及違法就會移送社政或警政機關來處理。"],["劉委員建國：但是我強調的是我們政府單位可以主動去審視這些內容才是正道啊！"],["詹主任文旭：巡邏恐怕目前……"],["劉委員建國：人力不夠？經費不足？"],["詹主任文旭：是，目前還是靠業者自律，如果有檢舉事件，iWIN就會積極介入處理。"],["劉委員建國：你一定期盼要有人檢舉才有辦法處理？不是這樣吧！"],["詹主任文旭：目前iWIN是這樣，因為人力有限。"],["劉委員建國：我現在提供這些網路的社群呢？"],["詹主任文旭：如果涉及app的話，不是iWIN來管。像遊戲的話是數發部產業署在分級、在處理。"],["劉委員建國：但不是都遊戲啊！"],["詹主任文旭：交友軟體或app也是數發部產業署處理。"],["劉委員建國：是嗎？"],["林組長青嶔：報告委員，首先謝謝委員上次有提醒遊戲分級和Google不一致的部分，謝謝委員很好的提醒，其實我們事後有去了解，遊戲分級是我們透過自律組織，國家會訂在國內市售所有的遊戲分級，當然我們的分級就會有0、12、15和限制級，也就是18禁。謝謝委員有觀察到，主要是Google上架有自己公司的審核制度，只是它的審核制度跟我們沒有對上，但它還是有一個18禁，現在很重要的是18禁是大家非常關切的事情，因為它有個12，我們有15就差一點，後來我們發現，委員也很仔細，我們查了一下分級，總共13款是限制級，然後去對應到Google裡面，剛好就是委員看到的那2款標示不一樣，我們現在已經跟Google講，因為兒少大家都很關心，假設我這邊是18禁，你一定要有18禁，所以我們已經有跟Ggoogle協調，以後我們都會加強區隔，我這邊18，你就一定要給我18，也不用任何的審議、審核、公司內部的規定，所以也謝謝委員，事後我們的做法是在我們這邊有18禁的話，我們也會在網路上看跟Ggoogle不一樣的，我們如果有發現，主動去跟Google聯繫，這邊先跟委員說謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：所以是因為有提醒，所以現在你們18禁，它們就要比照你們18禁，對不對！你們現在也會主動去審視這些。"],["林組長青嶔：定期會去找，找完再勾稽，如果我們有看到，而業者不處理的話，我們後續會做一些適當的處置，謝謝委員。"],["劉委員建國：我現在講的這些呢？"],["林組長青嶔：我們負責遊戲，交友的部分現在院裡面大概有在協調主管機關，目前主要是給內政部處理這件事，還剩最後的一些處理，我不方便回答。"],["劉委員建國：今天內政部有來嗎？警政署？你有聽到喔！交友就是內政部主管。"],["賈警政委員樂吉：這個議題有在內政部討論過。"],["劉委員建國：多久會有個結果？"],["賈警政委員樂吉：我看期程應該這個月內大概就會有消息，它會提到行政院層級來討論。"],["劉委員建國：提到行政院層級來討論，所以這個月應該會有結果？這個月快到了，我就等你。"],["賈警政委員樂吉：是下個月。"],["劉委員建國：是這個月還是下個月？"],["賈警政委員樂吉：下個月。"],["劉委員建國：就是確定由誰來主責？"],["賈警政委員樂吉：是。"],["劉委員建國：謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員發言。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","本日會議詢答全部結束，委員楊曜、盧縣一、蘇清泉、鍾佳濱、牛煦庭所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員楊曜書面質詢：","一、面對嚴重家庭暴力案件，衛福部該如何積極作為？","問題：近期媒體報導，某政黨要角爆發家暴案件，長期是家暴慣犯，他動輒羞辱、怒罵妻兒的行為，甚至逼得出身企業望族的妻子忍不住多次向家暴中心、在地警方通報，甚至加害人有多次遭通報家暴的紀錄，記者如此鉅細靡遺的寫出被害人家暴的內容，想請教衛福部，有無主動調查該案所在之社會局，有無洩漏被害人個案案件內容的狀況發生？在維護媒體第四權的狀況下，與被害人個人隱私如何取得平衡點？","而媒體報導表示，被害人礙於名門身分、媒體輿論，並避免孩子遭受異樣眼光，只能選擇煎熬隱忍不離婚，儘管加害人妻兒尚無肢體暴力或驗傷紀錄，但依法，言語、精神暴力亦是家暴型態的一種，請問衛福部，針對此個案，社會局有無開案？若無開案，要如何協助加害人的妻兒？面對眾多家暴案件，被害人選擇隱忍，即便社工、社福機構主動接觸，但被害人仍以諸多理由選擇不開案，政府資源無法介入協助當事人，更有甚者，被害人死亡或經媒體披露，才見相關機關有主動作為，為此，當受害者會面臨施暴者的威脅、恐嚇而不敢通報或接受服務時，衛福部要如何指導地方政府社會局該有積極作為？","二、要如何針對曾待過家暴家庭之未成年小孩持續性關懷？","問題：媒體報導，多名處理過家暴案的社工向媒體表示，家暴不能直接說會遺傳，但目睹或曾經身處暴力現場的人，卻有可能模仿或學習這類行為，衛福部曾統計，發生家暴案的家庭中，約有1成家庭的青年或兒童過去曾目睹家暴行為，而可能出現做惡夢、尿床、焦慮、退縮，甚至有攻擊、傷人等行為，他們成年後成為家暴加害者的比例，更是一般人的5～10倍，這些創傷的修復有賴社會安全網絡的介入，提供情緒支持、輔導及關懷，請問衛福部，是否研議運用大數據，針對目睹或曾經身處暴力現場的未成年小孩，做出更詳盡的分析，進而建構出一套完善的追蹤輔導機制，避免家暴世襲化？","三、應通盤檢討《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》所規範接受輔導教育者，地方政府辦理情形及研議是否納入身心治療機制","問題：在《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》規定，若犯本法部分條例者，必須接受一定時數的輔導教育，本席要求請衛福部，在一個月內通盤檢討全國各縣市因犯《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》者，必須接受輔導教育的實施狀況及遭遇困境並提供資料給本席，再者，根據《兒童及少年性剝削行為人輔導教育辦法》，輔導教育之執行方式，得以實體授課、數位教學或其他方式辦理，常見的辦理就是上課看影片，宛如道安講習，為此，本席要求，《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》應比照《性侵害犯罪防治法》，納入評估是否應接受身心治療，衛福部看法為何？","四、如何建立快速性影像網站的斷網標準作業流程？","問題：據媒體報導，非法網站兜售兒少性影像初估獲利高達三千萬，在誘人的獲利，肯定會有人鋌而走險，以性犯罪網站「創意私房」論壇為例，台北地方法院2021年12月曾扣押性犯罪網站「創意私房」網域名稱，透過停止解析讓民眾無法連上網頁，但後來創意私房又換了其他網域，因此仍有運作，在今年4/10時，數位部已收到衛福部公文，該論壇已遭封網。","就實際執行面來看，數位部主管的財團法人台灣網路資訊中心為執行單位，並不會去判斷網頁內容是否違法，若台灣網路資訊中心接獲法院裁定、行政機關依法裁處的行政處分，或收到透過緊急案件機制申請的惡意網域時，可執行停止解析，避免民眾連接不法網站，如果不屬於以上情形，基於緊急社會安全需求也可以執行停止解析。","請教衛福部，最早何時得知創意私房論壇又換了其他網域，仍持續運作中，因應作為為何？另有業者表示，創意私房論壇轉址作法，是非法業者慣用手法，原使用網址被封鎖後，非法業者馬上轉址，不久又冒出新的網頁，依創意私房論壇的案例來看亦是如此，非法性犯罪網站業者用轉址方式讓兒少性影像繼續流傳，請教衛福部，要如何建立SOP與數位部合作，在獲知非法性犯罪網站後，第一時間阻斷兒少性影像繼續散佈？修法授權衛福部封鎖境外兒少性影像網站是否為方式之一？","衛福部身為《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》主管機關，如何避免非法網站經營者，窮盡各種方式，如更換網站名稱、經營者、更換網域等方式讓網站能夠苟延殘喘的繼續經營下去。","五、衛福部是否研議《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》，比照《性侵害犯罪防治法》將各機關所負責之業務明確入法？","問題：依現行《性侵害犯罪防治法》第四條規定，明訂本法所定事項，主管機關及目的事業主管機關權責事項，近來發生非法網站兜售兒少性影像，引起社會大眾高度關心及不滿，但現今科技日新月異，發現各機關權責劃分似有模糊地帶，導致各界對於此案件的處理進程多有不滿，為此，本席建議，衛福部應將《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》，比照《性侵害犯罪防治法》將各機關所負責之業務明確入法。"],["委員盧縣一書面質詢：","一、受暴婦女收容量能，地方中長期庇護所受限預算不足，是否能夠增加？根據2023-08-13聯合報報導：「全台庇護資源分布不均，衛福部統計：台北市收容人數為全台最多有一五一人，苗栗縣、台東縣、澎湖及金門、馬祖則完全無資源，收容人數超過五十人以上的包含台北市，僅有台中、桃園、新北與屏東等5縣市。……高風險受暴者，通常需入住中長期庇護所，但全台目前僅有廿處中長期庇護所，雖可入住一到二年，依衛福部統計，平均每人安置時間僅有八點五六個月，緊急短期安置可住三個月，但平均也僅安置廿六點八天。」請問衛福部：受暴人數增加、收容人數下降。原因何在？如何提升庇護所收容量能？","二、受暴婦女須經法院訴訟程序、學習經濟生活獨立等，至少要長時間才能自立，衛福部、內政部是否能合作學習國外作法：讓受暴婦女自己決定：居住庇護時間應該要多長？現行作法如何決定其居住庇護所時間長短？","三、常見「保護令」無法完全隔絕「加害人」持續騷擾「被害人」，請問：法務部、司法院：可否統計近3年以來，申請人申請「保護令」及違反保護令之件數統計，違反保護令後，司法機關之因應作為？","四、請問衛福部、數發部、法務部：報載，自112年2月修正《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》之後至今，僅9件案件對非法網站採取「封網」手段，「封網」困難何在？"],["委員蘇清泉書面質詢：","根據衛福部統計，台灣每年通報的兒少性剝削受害者逐年上升，2022年更是有超過2200名受害者通報，且男性受害者佔超過三成。","非法網站創意私房在這個平台上，不僅有許多受剝削未成年女性的性私密影像，也包含許多完全「不知情」遭拍攝的無辜女性，這些女性很可能只是在校園、公眾場所如廁，就莫名遭偷拍，然後被放上公開的網路平台。政府應具體研議遏止境外平台的影片散布模式，讓部分刻意設置海外、有高度隱蔽性的平台，在出現這類型的犯罪型態時，必須配合優先下架影片，衛福部是否與數位部、警政機關共同研擬對策來阻止憾事發生？","近5年家庭暴力通報數據中，108年有12萬8198件通報、109年14萬1872件、110年14萬9198件、111年15萬6864件、112年有16萬8331件；其中在通報占比中，以親密關係暴力為最高。在婦女遭受親密關係暴力盛行率所做的全國性調查發現，遭受精神、跟蹤及騷擾、經濟、肢體、性暴力中任一種暴力的1年盛行率是8.99%，終生盛行率是19.62%，且無論是1年盛行率還是終生盛行率，都以精神暴力占最多（8.53%、16.76%）、其次是經濟暴力（2.03%、7.2%）、肢體暴力（1.52%、7.97%）、性暴力（1.53%、4.85%），與跟蹤及騷擾（1.38%、4.8%）。對於家暴受害人來說，要尋求資源是一大難題，資格也未必符合──例如台北市婦女中途之家，規範狀況包括「遭遇離婚、喪偶、夫服刑或失蹤、未婚懷孕及其他家庭變故等因素，而必須獨立照顧共同生活之18歲以下未婚子女的單親媽媽」，沒能離婚的家暴受害人是否符合「其他家庭變故」呢？又，受害人真的會想去庇護機構嗎？","居住屏東新園鄉共和村43歲余男因在家焚燒物品，遭63歲父親喝令制止，余嫌憤而徒手毆打其父親，父親奪門逃離住處，余嫌竟隨後騎乘機車並持刀追至鄰居家門前，手持菜刀及水果刀持續向其父親揮砍，其父雖手持板凳抵擋，頭部仍遭砍傷。警方獲報迅速到場並通知救護車將63歲余父送醫，經治療後頭部有傷口及身體多處擦挫傷，無生命危險。另余嫌犯下家暴犯行後即逃回住處躲藏，經警方手持盾牌及齊眉棍以優勢警力攻堅後將余嫌逮捕，全案依刑法殺人未遂罪及家庭暴力罪移送屏東地檢署偵辦。像這種同住家暴情況估計不是第一次發生，政府有何做法可以提早因應？","家暴型的創傷壓力症候群是一連串家庭事件所引發，這類型的患者主要有3個特徵，包括過度警覺、注意力無法集中，且對於相關人事物的線索都會有逃避情況，若孤軍奮戰，可能會陷入嚴重憂鬱。政府應該整合現有機制，讓遭受家暴的人從心理上生活上免於孤單，希望衛福部能與警政機構一同來聯繫處理好嗎？"],["委員鍾佳濱書面質詢：","按《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》，保護兒童及少年免於遭致性剝削，乃普世價值。且依據聯合國《兒童權利公約》第三十四條及《兒童權利公約關於買賣兒童、兒童賣淫和兒童色情製品問題的任擇議定書》，透過利益（如現金、物品或勞務）交換而侵犯兒童少年與其權利，即是對兒童少年之「性剝削」。","鑒於近年非法色情平台經常由平台經營者、拍攝製造影像提供者及購買性影像之會員三方組成產業鏈，朝向集團式、產業鏈型態模式發展之趨勢。若無購買行為，內容提供者既無利潤亦無動機繼續拍攝製造，即購買行為對於性影像傳播舉足輕重，惡性並未較拍攝製造之行為輕微。且購買或取得資格得以觀覽兒童或少年為性交或猥褻之行為，或其性影像等服務，無異鼓勵與金援兒少性剝削產業鏈之形成與發展。","惟近日個案更發展出可出價指定受害者及內容條件之違法性影像，網站內會有拍攝者瀏覽，並滿足會員的心願，此種懸賞行為無異於教唆犯罪。","爰此，請衛福部通盤檢視「購買兒童或少年為性交或猥褻行為之影像者加重刑責」、「出價指定受害者及內容條件之違法性影像者視同教唆犯罪」及「非法色情平台由平台經營者、拍攝製造影像提供者及購買性影像者組成即視為組織犯罪」可行性，並於一個月內提出說明。"],["委員牛煦庭書面質詢：","有鑑於衛福部報告統計，去年家暴通報案量約十六萬八千件，每天平均有四百六十件，雖就數據呈現確實是有逐年上升之情形，然並不代表不好，而是顯示民眾自我保護意識逐漸提升且有相關法治觀念，爰此政府應鼓勵通報，使社會資源妥善介入予以協助。然隨通報案量提升，政府資源相比卻有跟不上之趨勢，不論是第一線面對之社工人力及家暴一站式服務處數量都明顯不足。","查110年資料顯示衛福部目前補助全台有18個民間單位，範圍僅涵蓋11個縣市，為配合全國現有156處社會福利服務中心，並建立共案協力與深化公私部門合作機制，以期建構更加完善之社會安全網。爰請衛福部針對擴大家暴一站式服務處涵蓋範圍提出研議辦法。","另查我國社工待在同單位之平均年資約3年，相較於歐美國家社工人員在現職單位平均工作年資達7.36年下相去甚遠，凸顯我國社工人員平均年資過短問題。工作穩定度不足不利於提供良好服務品質及經驗傳承，為因應隨家庭案件需求之變異性、複雜性及多元性，挑戰社工對案件需求之評估能力、社區資源之掌握程度以及危機介入之臨床能力等，皆需良好現職社工了解情況以利經驗延續。故針對社工人才長久留任，請問有何相關補助或鼓勵計畫？","有鑑於先前數發部針對非法性論壇網站應盡速封網之事，稱認該部為執行機關，故封網此事僅能由法院或衛福部依《兒少性剝削條例》命其執行，然在等待網站關閉之過程不就等於放任已被受害人檢舉為非法偷拍性剝削的影片繼續在網站上供人瀏覽嗎？","查「創意私房論壇」色情網站，專賣各類偷拍性愛影片與猥褻照片，上架逾20萬部非法影片、近300名女性受害，其中包含不少未成年人，這非法論壇集團2021年時遭台北檢警查獲並封鎖網域，然才沉潛數月，就更換網域名稱繼續運作。主經營者「老馬」仍舊逍遙法外，故針對這類新興型態的數位性暴力，應更仰賴科技偵查技能，請問有何計畫以利數發部適當主動介入並改善網路性犯罪問題？爰請數發部研議辦法並有效建立控管機制，以杜絕違法網頁使受害人之非法性影像繼續流竄在網路上。","另查衛福部最新台灣兒少性剝削通報案件總共有2,271件，其中8成6之比例皆與性私密影像相關，更有家庭暴力研究中心調查指出，台灣18歲以上、74歲以下之成年人，高達7成曾遭遇過至少一種類型之數位性別暴力，可認數位性暴力已是無法忽視的犯罪問題。然我國警政機關卻未有數位性犯罪專責單位。受害者於派警局報案經驗往往不佳，第一線面對之警員亦可能缺乏專業知識、輕忽案件嚴重性。雖各縣市婦幼隊相對有經驗，卻也不是專責單位。故針對此問題，爰請內政部警政署提出建立數位性犯罪專責單位之計畫。"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於2週內以書面答復。委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在休息，星期四上午9點繼續開會。","休息（13時49分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 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112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政\n署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具\n體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":4.26659375,"end":6.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.236593750000001,"end":8.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8.14784375,"end":8.316593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13.429718750000003,"end":13.446593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.446593750000002,"end":14.020343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":14.610968750000001,"end":15.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16.551593750000002,"end":18.981593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":19.875968750000002,"end":21.512843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":23.04846875,"end":23.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":24.887843750000002,"end":30.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":27.891593750000002,"end":28.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":30.74346875,"end":34.135343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":34.81034375,"end":40.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":39.58596875,"end":41.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":42.454718750000005,"end":49.626593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.35721875,"end":45.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":50.09909375,"end":68.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":69.80909375,"end":74.55096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":74.97284375000001,"end":77.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":80.17034375,"end":86.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":86.31284375,"end":88.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":88.99596875,"end":90.58221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":90.85221875,"end":93.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":94.22721875,"end":101.56784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":102.32721875,"end":102.61409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":103.84596875000001,"end":118.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":119.70846875000001,"end":121.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":121.96971875000001,"end":124.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.21409375,"end":125.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.59784375000001,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.41159375,"end":134.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.23346875000001,"end":137.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.14034375,"end":140.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.51096875000002,"end":145.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.22346875,"end":145.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":145.27409375000002,"end":145.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.42596875,"end":167.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":145.47659375,"end":145.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.63346875000002,"end":184.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":186.85409375,"end":192.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.47346875000002,"end":192.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":192.96284375000002,"end":197.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":193.03034375000001,"end":193.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":193.13159375,"end":193.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":193.53659375,"end":193.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":194.24534375000002,"end":194.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":194.27909375000002,"end":194.54909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.89034375,"end":202.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":200.69159375,"end":200.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.56034375000002,"end":211.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":207.54284375,"end":210.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":211.23846875,"end":225.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":221.85284375,"end":222.37596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":223.20284375000003,"end":223.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.78471875000002,"end":226.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.11784375000002,"end":237.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.58034375000003,"end":238.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":239.89221875,"end":247.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":247.55346875,"end":249.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":249.57846875,"end":250.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":250.15221875,"end":255.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":255.51846875,"end":255.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":255.80534375000002,"end":261.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.25159375000004,"end":263.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.85471875,"end":263.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":263.88846875,"end":264.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.92221875,"end":264.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":265.15409375,"end":267.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":268.12409375000004,"end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.149,"end":818.087,"text":"自動把它升級,變成嚴格年齡限制,所以變成同一部片,兩個平台那個分級管制不同,那其實是巴哈加碼的管制,所以管制得更嚴,巴哈的平台是,那目前了解是這樣子,那跟委員會報"},{"start":819.514,"end":837.308,"text":"所以我提供這樣的一個訊息基本上你們就可以馬上去掌握、去調查、去了解嗎?對不對?好,那就是事後,就是說我們事先的一個監管的機制是存在的、是必然、是必要在做的嗎?"},{"start":838.129,"end":854.659,"text":"也不需要說因為有發生什麼事情我來提醒你們你們才去做這樣的一個一個一個一個一個怎麼樣調查去瞭解嘛那個基本上是業者自律那些框架是業者要去遵循的對只要那個民眾向艾運檢舉"},{"start":855.58,"end":875.095,"text":"IWIN就會去處理就會去檢視那個內容然後是不是符合分級如果不符合分級就會通知業者自律看是要下架或者是進一步處理如果沒有進一步處理可能如果涉及違法就會移送社政或警政機關來處理這是我強調的是我們政府單位可以主動"},{"start":876.519,"end":904.125,"text":"去審視這些內容才是正道啊。」那個巡邏齁是這個目前能力不夠是那目前還是靠業者自律啦靠業者自律如果說有檢舉事件那個iWIN就會積極介入處理你一定期盼要有人檢舉是要幫我處理不是這樣吧對目前iWIN是這樣子因為是能力有限那我現在提供這些網路的社群勒"},{"start":905.938,"end":933.695,"text":"網路的社群如果是涉及APP的話不是不是你管?不是IWIN來管因為如果像遊戲的話是那個誰管?是那個速發部產業署在分級在處理但這些不是這些不是都遊戲啊?這個交友軟體或者是那個APP也是速發部產業署在處理是嗎?那請主角上來"},{"start":935.842,"end":958.637,"text":"交流並不是你。」那個報告委員首先謝謝委員上次有提醒那個遊戲分級跟Google不一致的部分謝謝委員很好的提醒那其實我們後來事後有去了解因為主要是這樣子我們那個遊戲分級是我們透過自律組織然後國家會定在國內市售所有的遊戲分級那當然我們的分級就會有0、12、15跟"},{"start":962.979,"end":990.67,"text":"限制級就是18禁那謝謝委員有觀察到主要是Google它在上架它有自己公司的審核制度那只是它那個審核的制度跟我們沒有對上但是它還是有一個叫18禁但是我們現在很重要的是18禁是大家非常關切的事情因為它有個12我們有15就才那後來我們發現也委員很仔細我們查了一下我們分級有總共13款是限制級然後去看對應到Google裡面"},{"start":991.15,"end":1019.796,"text":"他剛好就是委員看到那兩款就是他標示不一樣那我們現在已經有跟Google講假設因為兒少大家都很關切假設我這邊是18禁你一定要有18禁所以我們已經有跟Google協調以後我們都會加強去做性格所以我這邊18你就一定要給我18也不用任何的審議啊審核公司內部的規定所以這邊也謝謝委員那事後我們的做法是我們在我們這邊有18禁的話我們也會在網路上去看有沒有"},{"start":1020.536,"end":1046.711,"text":"跟Google不一樣的。我們如果有發現,主動去跟Google做聯繫。」這邊先跟委員說謝謝。謝謝了。所以是因為有提醒,所以現在你們18禁,他們就要比照你們18禁就對了,對不對?好。你們現在也會變成主動的去來審視這些?近期去找,找完之後再勾結。如果業者,如果我們有看到他也自己不去處理的話,我們後續會做一些適當的處置。OK。我現在講的這些勒?"},{"start":1052.276,"end":1073.171,"text":"這邊交友的部分我們是負責遊戲嘛交友的部分現在院裡面有大概有在做協調交友的這個主管機關現在目前是主要是給內政部來去處理這件事情因為這個交友的部分那現在還在剩最後的一些處理這個我不方便回答謝謝那今天內政部有來嗎請證書來"},{"start":1082.096,"end":1106.07,"text":"你有聽到啦齁?交友就是你內政部喔?是內政部有另外一個時務部OK是好阿這個議題有在內政部裡面討論過好阿多久會有個結果?因為我看那個期程應該是這一個月內大概就會有消息他會提到行政院層級來做討論"},{"start":1110.096,"end":1135.87,"text":"提到行政院的成績在討論,所以這個月應該會有結果就對了。這個月快到了喔,那我就等你。是這個月還是下個月?下個月。就確定是由誰來組織就對了。好,謝謝主席。好,謝謝劉建國委員發言。接下來請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、"}]}},{"id":"151661","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151661","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb33c1bff72cecece64a8d86c0863c2f2caeadb1108e4b844321c7a1f58fb7c6e965ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡易餘","委員發言時間":"11:25:39 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11:34:00","影片長度":"00:08:21","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案。\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員黃建賓等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-9"},"duration":501,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:34:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:25:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":687,"blocks":[["蔡委員易餘：（11時25分）謝謝主席，我們有請部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長好。部長，我們今天委員會排了工廠管理輔導法的修法，這樣的一個修法，主要是針對涉及到工安、涉及到這一些工廠……"],["王部長美花：危險物品。"],["蔡委員易餘：安全性的一個管理，我們希望課予負責人更高的工安的一些義務，所以我們大概罰則會做提高。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：這部分事實上我們自己也都有提案，經濟部這邊也是同意這樣的一個修正方式……"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：但是回到這個工輔法的本身，我想部長應該也很清楚，工輔法上路之後，當然就是要輔導過去的農地工廠，讓他們可以符合一定的一個條件，比方說他們是低污染，而且他們跟鄰近的一些地方，大概有時間來做一個切開，輔導他們可以走向合法工廠。但是我聽到的，他們縱使納管之後，要走到合法，包括要繳納的這一筆回饋金，事實上沒有幾家可以走到，部長，你覺得最大原因是什麼？"],["王部長美花：我們這個都跟地方政府密切來配合，確實時間上有一點久，當然第一個納管之後他要提出改善計畫，相關的案件現在在地方政府確實非常多，我也在上個月有寫一個信箋給各地方首長，麻煩他們加速來審理，如果缺人的話，應該用收取的這些營運金等等，來增僱相關的員工趕快審理這些案子，這樣才能夠一步一步往下走。我想委員講……"],["蔡委員易餘：對啦，第一個他們要請人這沒有錯，地方缺人啦！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：而且你看現在納管的家數滿多的，這些納管的基本上每年都繳交一年10萬元嗎？"],["王部長美花：最多10萬元。"],["蔡委員易餘：最多10萬元嗎？"],["王部長美花：2到10萬，我記得是這樣。"],["蔡委員易餘：看他們的面積啦，最多到10萬元。"],["王部長美花：對。"],["蔡委員易餘：大部分的工廠應該都是10萬元，大概規模上是這樣。不過現在看起來，第一個，地方政府人員不足是一個問題；第二個問題，如果以過去的工廠，他們大概蓋的規模都已經……那個廠房的型已經出來了，既然廠房的型出來了，他們工廠也有起重機，工廠四周圍都大概是長那個樣子了，結果我們現在是要求他們必須要符合隔離綠帶，有所謂隔離綠帶1.5米這樣的一個要求。變成他們工廠一年繳了10萬元，甚至後來已經走到要地目變更，未來要走到工廠可以讓它合法化，合法化後他們的屋頂可以走向用綠能的方式，這都是一個很正面的方向，正在進行。但走著走著發現為了這個隔離綠帶就必須要去把廠房拆下來，廠房要拆一面，甚至拆一面就可能影響到我的起重機，那些就等於整個要重來了。所以大概很多在申請及已經在納管中的這些特定工廠走不下去，不然就是他們現在回饋金不敢繳出來。為什麼他不敢繳出來？他怕最後是走不到的啊！所以他們就自己也卡住了。部長，這一件事情，我想你也清楚啦！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我們到底有沒有一個方向？我們既然訂定了工廠管理輔導法，他們已經納管這麼久了，但是他們無法走到最後一步，表示可能在法律上是有問題的啊！不然為什麼他們都願意配合，但就是無法走到最後一步呢？"],["王部長美花：要走到最後一步的時候，它要變成是特目，這樣讓整個工廠完全變成合法的時候，確實在整個建築的法規還是要符合啦！之前有因為隔離綠帶1.5米的時候，會造成要拆兩次的問題，我們有跨部會溝通過，不要讓廠商去拆兩次，就是一併來做相關審理的部分。不過，像委員講的，它要完全合法，工廠相關的建蔽率等等，還是要去符合相關規定，我們會由專業的來告訴他們，到土地合法化的這個過程應該怎麼去申請審查。"],["蔡委員易餘：我想建蔽率這件事，他們是願意配合的喔！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：基本上，它要符合建蔽率，他們說哪一塊地要符合，現在大概是百分之……"],["王部長美花：70%。"],["蔡委員易餘：70%的建蔽率，所以部分不能做工廠用，這他們都能夠配合，但他們現在最大的問題就是，現在繳納了地方的回饋金，也把地目變更，變更後他們的廠房要變成一個合法的廠房，要符合建築法規，但是建築法規有一些的規定，比方說這個隔離綠帶，這個隔離綠帶就變成說他和鄰近的土地，旁邊鄰近土地如果是農地的話，你也不可能叫他去跟旁邊的人買吧？去跟他那邊買起來，然後去補他的1.5米，這個也做不到啊！"],["王部長美花：那個是可以的，是可以的。"],["蔡委員易餘：對，這是一個可以的方式，但是實際上真的是很難啊！他要怎麼跟……"],["王部長美花：就是有成功的案例，有成功的案例……"],["蔡委員易餘：少之又少啦！可以真的去買，跟旁邊的買到，那也要旁邊的人願意賣，如果旁邊的人不願意賣呢？而且還是給他開超高價呢？"],["王部長美花：對於他應該要保留建蔽率的部分，畢竟他要變成完全合法化的時候，還是要去遵守這些相關的規定，但是做法上……"],["蔡委員易餘：剛才說建蔽率這一點是沒有問題。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：我想他們是沒有問題，他們現在麻煩的在於為了要把1.5米切開來，他的廠房等於要把一堵牆拆掉，還是說那些起重機……那個成本就很高了喔！成本就嚇死人了！"],["王部長美花：所以我們這個部分有相關的輔導團隊來做協助，這個確實要做到用地完全合法之前，這一個其實是比較複雜，沒有錯，但是我們有輔導團隊來告訴他，這個應該怎麼走，才可以符合內政部跟農委會的相關規範。"],["蔡委員易餘：部長，我覺得要跟地方做一個調查啦，瞭解一下現在他們這一些已納管的工廠，他們現在不管是消防還是什麼，每項他們都在做，但是最後望之卻步，到底理由在於什麼？我覺得這可能你們要做個實際的調查，知道到底這些工廠現在的問題在哪，你們再把它整理起來。如果是卡在現行這1.5米變成一個不合理地方，是不是該檢討就要檢討？好不好？"],["王部長美花：我們會跟地方政府密切瞭解，就委員關心後半段……因為目前到後半段的案子也會越來越多了，所以這個部分怎麼來處理……"],["蔡委員易餘：是啦！我知道到目前為止有通過的真的沒幾家，但是我們上路已經到了第4年了，實質上通過的還沒幾家，既然我們這是要輔導他們的，我們就是要聽他們的心聲，知道他們的困難點在哪裡，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["蔡委員易餘：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蔡易餘委員的發言。接下來我們請何欣純委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-9","speakers":["邱議瑩","黃建賓","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林思銘","林岱樺","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","鄭正鈐","謝衣鳯","蔡易餘","何欣純","黃國昌","洪孟楷","黃捷","羅智強","牛煦庭","陳超明","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷","王美惠"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等 21案；二、審查：\n(一)行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(二)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員\n黃建賓等 17 人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案、(六)\n本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員蔡易\n餘等20 人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)本院\n委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及\n第三十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.40159375,"end":4.755968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.3590937499999995,"end":8.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.77221875,"end":9.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.48409375,"end":17.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.96909375,"end":18.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.33596875,"end":35.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.90784375,"end":33.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.962218750000005,"end":35.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.805968750000005,"end":45.002843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.27346875,"end":41.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.34034375,"end":76.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.68534375,"end":52.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.72784375,"end":86.81909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.56159375,"end":95.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.10034375000001,"end":101.77034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.49596875,"end":102.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.23846875000001,"end":138.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.92096875000001,"end":149.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.72221875,"end":139.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.62784375,"end":150.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.09159375000002,"end":152.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.37846875,"end":156.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.15471875,"end":155.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.43284375000002,"end":162.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.05284375000002,"end":158.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.99284375000002,"end":164.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.10221875000002,"end":170.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.57034375,"end":167.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.97471875000002,"end":184.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.25534375,"end":219.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.97971875000002,"end":224.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.83971875,"end":226.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.54409375,"end":229.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.85159375,"end":232.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.75409375,"end":234.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.69471875000002,"end":243.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.46534375000002,"end":247.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.22846875000002,"end":249.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.82721875000001,"end":269.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.71284375000002,"end":254.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.40659375,"end":290.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.17534375,"end":303.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.64596875,"end":313.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.69534375,"end":322.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.13784375,"end":315.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.88346875,"end":341.88471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.26659375,"end":328.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.03659375,"end":344.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.43284375,"end":347.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.80784375,"end":352.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.57909375,"end":356.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.66284375000004,"end":360.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.95346875,"end":363.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.73346875000004,"end":365.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.75034375,"end":365.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.93159375000005,"end":366.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.97784375000003,"end":370.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.05346875000004,"end":369.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.40784375000004,"end":373.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.79534375000003,"end":378.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.89221875000004,"end":374.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.76096875,"end":379.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.02221875000004,"end":387.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.86909375000005,"end":389.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.95721875000004,"end":392.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.05846875000003,"end":405.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.14909375,"end":411.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.42659375000005,"end"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- 11:32:14","影片長度":"00:05:14","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":314,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:32:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:27:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":697,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時26分）謝謝主席，我也請林部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我知道雖然您不會續任部長，但是我相信您在任內還是非常認真的在內政部很重要的案子裡面，最近我們有一個很重要的案子在社子島，我想你也非常關心，我現在要強調一下，社子島已經禁建50年，我們在臺北市政府的時候，107年通過了主要計畫，109年通過了細部計畫，這些都市計畫經歷了數十年，包括防洪計畫要10年，然後內水歷經4年，主要計畫3年，細部計畫1年，現在環評經過了6年，終於在109年6月臺北市政府把區段徵收的區徵計畫送到了內政部，到今天113年，我們已經送了4年，這4年內政部光區段徵收的範圍跟抵價地的比例來來回回已經四、五趟了，我想請問部長，就您剛剛聽到這麼長時間的審議，請問一下，現在的區徵計畫還要等多久，內政部才要給社子島的居民一個回答？"],["林部長右昌：委員，跟您報告一下，區徵計畫實際上並沒有送到內政部，它的區徵範圍還有抵費地的部分……"],["黃委員珊珊：對，區徵開發範圍跟抵費地比例到內政部已經4年了，請問內政部多久才要核定？"],["林部長右昌：對不起，但是問題是當地民眾的這些意見。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以意見還沒有整理好？"],["林部長右昌：臺北市政府一直沒有辦法把它整合好……"],["黃委員珊珊：來去文已經很多次了，所以接下來，我覺得內政部現在在審的叫做區段徵收跟抵價地的比例，但是我看到部長找了臺北市跟新北市的市長，談的是輕軌整合，所以請問這個輕軌整合會不會影響到區徵範圍抵價地比例的相關核定時程？"],["林部長右昌：有可能會影響，不過……"],["黃委員珊珊：為什麼要影響到區段徵收範圍跟比例的時程呢？"],["林部長右昌：因為這關乎整個社子島未來的發展……"],["黃委員珊珊：不是說只是區段徵收的範圍嗎？抵價地的比例嗎？"],["林部長右昌：是，會的。"],["黃委員珊珊：跟輕軌有什麼關係呢？"],["林部長右昌：會的，因為機廠設在社子島，機廠如果設在社子島的話，它會占很大的土地，這個也是社子島的開發成本那麼高……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以部長我只是想問，你現在要離任了，這個相關輕軌的計畫，新的下一位部長會繼續你原來的這些計畫嗎？"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告，這是臺北市的計畫，但是我們必須……"],["黃委員珊珊：我說輕軌的部分。"],["林部長右昌：但是我們必須要提醒臺北市，如果這個事情它不處理的話，未來社子島的開發會是一個災難。"],["黃委員珊珊：那我們就講你的輕軌計畫好了，為什麼大家看完，全部的人都快要昏倒？你現在拜會蔣市長的提案是輕軌從天母過來到蘆洲這邊，社子島只設了3個站；但是原來臺北市規劃的輕軌路線，在社子島裡面，從住宅區到科專區到商業區，總共設了10個站，所以這兩個，你們提出的計畫跟我們原來的設計，對於社子島居民的使用跟相關的便利性是差別很大的……"],["林部長右昌：委員，可能……"],["黃委員珊珊：也就是說，部長，我瞭解你的用心，希望能夠把機廠拿出去，讓大家有更多的空地來做公共設施，但是這些東西我只有一個簡單的要求，不應該因為內政部在所謂的區段徵收計畫開發範圍跟抵價地比例而影響到整個社子島的開發時程……"],["林部長右昌：委員，我跟你報告……"],["黃委員珊珊：這個你做得到嗎？"],["林部長右昌：社子輕軌在社子島裡面，原本並沒有10個車站，我想這一點可能有點落差。"],["黃委員珊珊：規劃，目前是規劃。"],["林部長右昌：沒有10個站，你講的應該是從天母一路過來，總共是10個站，不過在……"],["黃委員珊珊：這個是臺北市政府地政局的規劃案。"],["林部長右昌：不可能在社子島裡面有10個站。"],["黃委員珊珊：裡面目前計畫有10個站，但是我的意思是，不管將來怎麼規劃，我只希望內政部儘速，在109年我們就已經送了所謂的開發範圍跟抵價地比例，請儘速，已經4年了，你說臺北市政府沒有跟當地居民，他們已經開過很多次會，我希望時程不要影響到，不要因為你們對輕軌的要求改變了而影響到整個時程的設定。"],["林部長右昌：委員，我們也很急，但是我們必須……"],["黃委員珊珊：我知道很急，但不要因為這樣子而耽誤了社子島的開發，他們已經等50年了。"],["林部長右昌：我們必須站在區域發展的角度，提醒地方政府必須要把交通規劃好。"],["黃委員珊珊：我都同意，但是不要突然間冒出一個新的想法之後而改變了所有的時程，社子島人已經沒有辦法再等了。"],["林部長右昌：對，我們希望大家一起來努力，也希望臺北市政府能夠積極一點，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：我希望部長就算離任，還是不要影響到我們的開發時程，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員的質詢。","下一位請鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-14","speakers":["吳琪銘","莊瑞雄","羅美玲","陳玉珍","黃捷","陳培瑜","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","吳沛憶","王美惠","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","李柏毅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","黃國昌","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳菁徽","陳冠廷","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案；二、審查內政\n部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)\n行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六\n條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國\n籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員\n林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員莊\n瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案、 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- 11:26:48","影片長度":"00:07:39","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":459,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:26:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:19:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":652,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時19分）謝謝主席，麻煩請部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。去年三讀通過的平均地權條例，主要是為了實現居住正義的價值，因此裡面有非常多的規範，其中有一個部分為了要打擊炒房，那個時候內政部還曾經公開宣示過，房子是拿來住的，不是拿來投資的，也不是拿來炒作的，所以我們才推動平均地權條例，杜絕炒作的行為。在這整個規範的架構下，我們說私法人並沒有住宅的需求，它沒有住的需求，所以平均地權條例第七十九條之一要求私法人買賣住宅的時候要檢具使用計畫，經中央主管機關許可，這裡所講的中央主管機關我想應該是內政部，沒有問題。內政部在平均地權條例下面的授權，針對私法人買賣住宅的許可訂定了一個辦法，訂定了這個法規命令，把私法人可以買住宅的情況限制了六款的狀況，那這六款的狀況必須要經過內政部審核通過以後才能夠買，部長，到目前為止，我對於法規的說明應該都沒有錯誤吧？是嘛？好。","但是法律通過歸通過，我們要看實際上實踐的效果，我進一步去調了資料以後，赫然發現竟然有一堆公司用宿舍當作名義，當初我們在許可辦法裡面訂宿舍是說私法人去買了住宅，然後提供員工當作宿舍使用，但我看裡面有一堆投資公司，我看到員工人數後嚇了一跳，員工人數只有1個人，1個人的員工人數要去買住宅，那是1人公司去買住宅，然後老闆提供給老闆，自己當宿舍用嗎？怎麼會有這麼荒謬的情況！進一步去看它買什麼宿舍，我的老天啊！這家公司真是太有佛心了，它買的宿舍全部都是豪宅耶！以平安寰宇來講，它買的是3.2億、90坪；以旭昌興企業有限公司來講，它買的是多少？6.4億！6.4億的文華苑，我看了這個通過的狀況以後，我真的嚇壞了！","部長，我們看具體的例子就好了，臺北市前十大豪宅，西華富邦，公司只有1個人，然後它要買2.3億的宿舍給那1個人住，這個是我們當初平均地權條例修法讓主管機關審核的修法意旨嗎？來，請部長。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員的垂詢，我個人覺得這是不應該的，因為這個是……"],["黃委員國昌：停，部長你說得非常好，不應該吧？"],["林部長右昌：對，這個違反……"],["黃委員國昌：那內政部怎麼准的？"],["林部長右昌：這個違反我們的……"],["黃委員國昌：怎麼許可的？"],["林部長右昌：不過我跟委員報告，因為之前在訂法的時候，我們最主要在法的一個宗旨是希望不要短期炒作，所以他是……"],["黃委員國昌：兩個層次的問題，部長不要混為一談，第一個層次，內政部要把關，私法人什麼時候可以買？要內政部核准嘛？"],["林部長右昌：對。"],["黃委員國昌：核准了以後五年之內不能轉售，那是第二個層次的問題吧？請您不要把兩個層次的問題混在一起談，我要請教的是第一個層次的問題，內政部怎麼准的？我今天聽部長這樣講，我很肯定，你說不應該嘛？"],["林部長右昌：對，我覺得這不應該啦！"],["黃委員國昌：不應該是怎麼准的啊！"],["林部長右昌：我想這個應該是我們地政司在這個法剛通過初期的時候，現在他們也已經在修改這個辦法，這個已經不允許了。"],["黃委員國昌：你不用去修改辦法，你回去看！這個是哪門子宿舍啊！你用道理說服我！用道理說服臺灣社會啊！用道理說服關心居住正義的人啊！這是哪門子宿舍啊！1人公司買2.3億的豪宅，1個人住，這樣內政部也准？部長，會不會太扯啊！"],["林部長右昌：委員，我跟你報告，我個人認為這是不應該的……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！你沒有個人的立場，你只有部長的立場、部長的高度。"],["林部長右昌：這個就是不應該，這個不應該准。"],["黃委員國昌：不應該？那接下來要怎麼處理？"],["林部長右昌：我想這個之後就不會准……"],["黃委員國昌：所以是前面幾個大戶先放沒有關係？之後不准？"],["林部長右昌：不是，委員，因為這個要修相關的辦法，現在已經……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，我還是回去嘛！你不要去講修辦法的問題嘛！你以法條的涵攝來講，這是哪門子宿舍啊！還不是只有這個，下面這個更誇張，下面這個是文華苑，5.6億耶！5.6億的文華苑買來住6人宿舍，哪家公司福利這麼好啊？我要趕快去丟履歷表，可以住5.6億的文華苑當宿舍，結果一查是臺灣的巨富陳泰銘，而且這文華苑用私法人、用宿舍准，部長，你知道這個文華苑是他買的第幾戶嗎？部長你知不知道？"],["林部長右昌：這個我不知道。"],["黃委員國昌：我跟部長報告，第9戶，他前面買8戶了，全部都在文華苑，他買第9戶然後還當宿舍，我們的內政部還准？我的老天啊！平均地權條例當初讓私法人買宿舍的例外是這樣用的嗎？部長，這件事情要不要檢討？"],["林部長右昌：我想這個當然要檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：好，需要多久？"],["林部長右昌：剛剛在講的是我們地政司在修許可辦法，不過委員我跟你報告，我想這件事情是不容許的，因為這個是在鑽漏洞。"],["黃委員國昌：部長，這已經容許了，這不是不容許，已經容許了，已經被容許了。"],["林部長右昌：這事情不應該發生。"],["黃委員國昌：對！所以我就說嘛！你們當初法規怎麼解釋適用的？部長說要檢討，時間到了，我尊重其他委員後面的質詢，但分兩個部分，第一個，當初怎麼准的？符不符合當初你們訂辦法的意旨？這是一個層次的問題；第二個，未來辦法要怎麼修，這是第二個層次的問題。這兩個層次的問題，請內政部提出書面的檢討報告，部長，需要多久？"],["林部長右昌：我想10天之內。"],["黃委員國昌：好，10天之內，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：另外跟委員報告，這件事情……不是我個人，我覺得這個是不容許的，所以剛剛提到後續的補救方式，我們會一併來做檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以我才跟你講分兩個層次，部長說不容許，我聽了很高興啦！但你說不容許，你們下面的審查就准啦！"],["林部長右昌：這不應該容許。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢。","下一位請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-14","speakers":["吳琪銘","莊瑞雄","羅美玲","陳玉珍","黃捷","陳培瑜","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","吳沛憶","王美惠","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","李柏毅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","黃國昌","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳菁徽","陳冠廷","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案；二、審查內政\n部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)\n行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六\n條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國\n籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員\n林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員莊\n瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案、 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branch、行政體系，目前這方面的溝通狀態是怎麼樣？有沒有可能未來有機會在一些他們所建議的，包含我看到Gallagher有說空中及水下無人載具在臺灣用他們的系統，然後在臺灣生產，目前溝通的狀況及可能性為何？"],["邱部長國正：的確這個工作不斷在溝通，我們現在有很多國內有產製能力但有些裡面比較機敏的部分不見得有，就要透過這個管道，不過透過這個管道現在會有顧慮，可能有洩密的問題，所以這個東西看要怎麼克服，但是這個工作推動沒有停止過。"],["陳委員冠廷：我想當然可以透過法制上面去補足，包含國安法、國家情報工作法去盤點，這幾次的質詢我們都有提到有許多洩密的案件，要嘛就是判刑過輕，要嘛就是蒐證的關係等等，透過國家情報工作法，我們自己本身也有提案，加強專業法官的知識，甚至有專業法庭的話，能夠把相關的訊息、知識傳達給審理的法官。我想這方面的立法我們是會推動，但是我也希望未來有機會國防部能夠知道，它能夠負責的當然是陸、海、空或者是cyber這種各個不同的軍種，但是其實在法律上面的諮詢、金融上面的諮詢，國防部能夠提供更多的資訊給這一些相關機構，我想這也是非常重要的。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為我們剛才提到接觸的這些密等，我就忍不住想到，最近有一些國防的承包商直接進入軍營裡面，國防承包商進入軍營裡面，當然是有僱用一些非法的勞工。我想請教一下，我們檢討過去國防部營區的這些承包商，有沒有施工人員清冊？有的話，是認車還是認人？還是認章不認人？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，施工單位有的時候會把工程外包，但外包不是丟給施工單位，我們就不管了，我們也有一個規定，就是勞務要派哪些人、不得派哪些人，這都在條約裡面訂得清清楚楚，但我們現在要編組，我不能夠再去幫你一個一個過濾是不是有違規的人，但我告知你，你如果違規了，我跟這個廠商之間是有罰則的，否則我每一樣事情都要介入的話，我們也受不了。"],["陳委員冠廷：我沒有叫你介入啊，我沒有要請國防部來介入這些個案，我們現在是說怎麼樣釐清進入的人。"],["邱部長國正：對，如果每件事情都要去查證，我們沒有這個能耐，但我們在法規裡面只要定了，是由勞務單位他們去界定，如果逾越了，就接受罰則吧！"],["陳委員冠廷：好，瞭解，如果是這樣的說法，那就這樣做，反正我們都有法律，那就是誰違法，我們再罰嘛。"],["邱部長國正：不是這樣的，委員這樣說好像我就聽命他安排了，有很多例證嘛，你只要有涉及違法事件，軍法該要出面，一樣要出面，我們一樣要抗告，但最後的責任，我們一定會找那個勞務單位。"],["陳委員冠廷：我剛才請教的問題是，軍方在查明人員進入營區單位的時候，他們是認什麼？他們有一個clearance嗎？有一個章嗎？還是他們對於人員的管制有怎麼樣的作法？"],["邱部長國正：他要到營區的時候要有識別證。"],["陳委員冠廷：有識別證嘛，那你們要提供識別證的話，是不是要先做查核？"],["邱部長國正：當然要查核啦！一定要查核。"],["陳委員冠廷：那查核的話，這次就是很不幸剛好有發生這樣的事情，我們未來……"],["邱部長國正：不是，委員提的這個案子我知道，他沒有在營區裡面，它是隔開的，他出入口跟這個營區等等並沒有進去。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以沒有進去營區？"],["邱部長國正：是，我們……"],["陳委員冠廷：所以這件事情是沒有進入營區，在還沒有相關的安全危害時就已經成功地去堵住了，就沒有這件事情，沒有直接影響到安全。好，謝謝。","最後，關於美國通過對臺安全的法案，其中有19億美元是用於補充臺灣的軍事物資，還有20億美元的軍事融資，我想請教部長，這些部分我們未來的規劃大概是什麼樣的方向？"],["邱部長國正：不管用……"],["陳委員冠廷：直接是用在哪個地方？"],["邱部長國正：我請戰規司說明一下。"],["陳委員冠廷：大概規劃的方向。"],["曹副司長定明：跟委員報告，這個部分參議院已經在今天早上9點40分通過了，這是最新的狀況，跟委員做個報告。"],["陳委員冠廷：對。"],["曹副司長定明：19億的部分是指定給美國國防部來做使用，它在法規裡面所律定的範圍是臺灣及區域的夥伴國家，包括回補美國國防部援臺的裝備，以及對臺的軍事服務、軍事教育訓練，這跟剛剛召委這邊所詢問的內容是類似的。"],["陳委員冠廷：好。不好意思召委，讓我問最後一個問題。共軍進入臺海周邊的警示，國防部說有不斷精進、調整公布的方式，現在是避免敵人利用縫隙對我國進行認知作戰，所以取消公布侵擾共機的機型，想請教一下部長，為什麼我們要做這樣子的調整？"],["主席：請摘要回答。"],["邱部長國正：我好像是調整得越來越清楚……好像把它弄得一點點，越界越到哪裡，我就列出來，我不知道那個差別，假如你的左右……"],["陳委員冠廷：過去的話會公布機型，現在基本上不是採這樣的作法，就是取消公布侵擾共機的機型，簡化相關的資訊。我們來看一下，日本方面的話，他們會有一個資訊，不管是摘要這些無人機的機型，還有海軍的這些訊息，或者是中國進入他們警示範圍的部分，都會把它標示出來。我想請教一下，為什麼我們過去會把中共機型的相關資料標示出來，現在沒有？是擔心哪一個部分？"],["邱部長國正：沒有什麼擔憂啦，這個我們以區塊表示，在這個範圍裡面各種機型都有，我還一樣一樣、一架一架列嗎？所以我想委員有這個問題，我們……"],["陳委員冠廷：對，那過去為什麼要列，現在為什麼不列？我的問題只是這個而已。"],["邱部長國正：過去它出來的時候，我們很明確地說就那幾架，但現在數量變多了，反正主戰兵力或者輔戰兵力我們都有掌握，委員要，我們可以提供，沒有講說對外有什麼……"],["陳委員冠廷：我現在是在問原因，不是在問我要不要，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長國正：我不知道委員要不要聽，要聽的話，我派人去跟委員說明。"],["陳委員冠廷：不是，部長，我現在問的是為什麼過去有、現在沒有，我們的目的是為什麼？"],["邱部長國正：因為以前是把這些架次清楚地列出來，它數量不多，可以這樣做，但現在數量變多了，我就以區塊來表達，就是這個原因。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝部長，我就是要知道這個原因。"],["邱部長國正：好。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員。部長，請回。","因為數量增加導致處置不同，不過大家可以討論啦！","我們休息5分鐘，待會繼續開會，請吳思瑤委員備便，抱歉。","休息（11時25分）","繼續開會（11時31分）"],["主席：好，我們繼續開會。","接下來進行詢答的委員是邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。","接下來詢答的委員是吳思瑤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","林楚茵","沈伯洋","黃國昌","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳永康","陳俊宇","羅智強","林思銘","洪申翰","翁曉玲","陳冠廷","吳思瑤","林憶君","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","沈發惠"],"page_start":251,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案」案；二、審查本院委員徐巧芯等18人擬具\n「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查行政院函請審議「軍人權益事件處理法草\n案」案；四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案","agenda_id":"1133201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.23346875,"end":1.4822187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.70159375,"end":2.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.387843750000002,"end":12.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.10909375,"end":33.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.84846875,"end":40.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.17221875,"end":44.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.22221875,"end":49.407218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.59284375,"end":78.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.77846875,"end":51.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.00596875000001,"end":91.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.32471875,"end":97.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.95659375000001,"end":131.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.57159375,"end":146.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.53971875000002,"end":150.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.48409375,"end":152.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.63159375,"end":234.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.54284375,"end":241.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.79909375000003,"end":265.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.92221875,"end":270.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.47034375000004,"end":277.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.55721875,"end":280.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.21909375,"end":290.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.38221875,"end":304.86096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.05096875000004,"end":313.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.45034375,"end":320.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.70659375,"end":320.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.74034375,"end":320.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.85846875000004,"end":320.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.87534375,"end":320.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":320.89221875000004,"end":321.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.02721875000003,"end":321.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.51659375,"end":321.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.75284375,"end":324.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.78659375,"end":331.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.78159375,"end":327.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.74721875,"end":340.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.31534375,"end":364.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.12534375,"end":342.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.56034375,"end":365.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.81346875,"end":367.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.86409375000005,"end":366.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.45034375,"end":367.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.48409375,"end":368.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.96909375,"end":370.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.17971875,"end":373.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.63909375000003,"end":380.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.75659375000004,"end":379.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.00971875000005,"end":379.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.08534375000005,"end":385.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.21534375000005,"end":390.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.39596875,"end":392.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.35346875000005,"end":395.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.58096875,"end":397.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.65659375,"end":403.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.64721875000004,"end":404.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.98471875,"end":421.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.97346875000005,"end":433.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.39784375000005,"end":460.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.52846875,"end":470.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.59471875,"end":473.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.12159375000005,"end":481.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.74471875,"end":487.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.31784375,"end":489.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.70096875,"end":492.35909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.35909375000006,"end":496.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.56971875000005,"end":499.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.76346875,"end":496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«軍人權益事件處理法草案案案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":348.246,"end":372.771,"text":"沒有直接影響到安全的危害。」好,謝謝。那最後關於這個美國通過對台安全的法案,那其中有19億美元是用於補充台灣的軍事物資,還有21美元的軍事融資。我想請教部長,我們未來的規劃大概是用什麼樣的方向,這些部分?直接是在哪個地方?大概規劃的方向?跟委員報告,這個部分"},{"start":375.004,"end":399.745,"text":"參議院的部分已經在今天早上9點40分也已經通過了這是最新的狀況跟委員做個報告那19例的部分是指定給美國國防部來做使用那它在法規裡面所預定的範圍是臺灣及區域的夥伴國家有包括回補美國防部原台的裝備以及對台的軍事服務軍事教育訓練這跟剛剛那個昭偉這邊所詢問的內容是類似的"},{"start":404.65,"end":421.145,"text":"最後一個問題,共軍進入台海周邊的警示,現在我們國防部有說不斷精進調整工部的方式,現在是避免敵人用縫隙對我國任之作戰,所以取消侵擾共機的進行,想請教一下為什麼部長我們要做這樣子的調整?"},{"start":422.206,"end":426.247,"text":"草案案件事件處理法草案案件事件處理法草案案件事件處理法草案"},{"start":438.351,"end":460.664,"text":"沒有做這樣的做法,就是取消公布侵擾共機的機型,簡化相關的資訊。」那我們來看一下日本的方面的話,他們會有一個,不管是摘要把這些無人機的機型,還有海軍的這些,或者是中國來進入他們的這個警示範圍的部分,都會把它標示出來。我想請教一下,為什麼我們過去會把中共的機型相關的標示出來,現在沒有,是擔心哪一個部分?"},{"start":461.607,"end":470.691,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。六、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":491.698,"end":493.22,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《軍人權》案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"}]}},{"id":"151657","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151657","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3ece5bb4a52fc4b5b7e796690f3f0abb2eadb1108e4b844327a419371ec2b560b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"11:15:53 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謝謝 部長你請委那主席我最後再問一下司法院 邀請秘書長委員好邀請秘書長我想跟您討論今天的這個負擔的問題我想我們大家對於這個法官的負擔的問題而造成我們那麼多精英的法官的責損"},{"start":469.502,"end":470.463,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":491.332,"end":517.463,"text":"我想今天我們這個專題是在討論說如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運用以降低基層司法體系負擔的問題但是我一直呼籲的一個問題現在不管我們怎麼做如果我們沒有從源頭去做相關的一個教育去讓我們的年輕人、讓我們的孩子從小升職法制的觀念"},{"start":518.763,"end":541.831,"text":"那我個人這個我還是講我們社會的就是一直循環就是因為教育沒有做好才會造成我們最後一道這個防線很可能就被攻破所以才會造成我們大家法官因為案子不斷的增加壓力不斷的變大所以大家沒辦法負荷嘛所以如何減少案源"},{"start":542.991,"end":552.079,"text":"這個部分除了我們剛剛很多委員提的很多的一個方案以外我個人是建議法制教育這部分可能要做得更多"},{"start":554.238,"end":580.085,"text":"所以現在我們司法院有沒有跟教育部來合作怎麼樣把我們法制的種子散佈在各個校園這個我們有在加強因為我們有特別成立新鮮處、新倫仙島處、法治新倫仙島處這一部分有跟我們年輕朋友跟我們學校都有提到真的我真的"},{"start":580.985,"end":604.893,"text":"中心建議,因為我們法律上,真的,我覺得如果沒有從教育面著手的話,突然要讓這個我們司法的最後一道防線,就是接到案子就要審就要審就要審,沒完沒了啦,怎麼樣都很難減少啦,案子就是不斷的來啊,這些違法犯紀的事情,因為這些人對於法治的觀念,真的太欠缺了啊,為什麼會犯罪?"},{"start":606.345,"end":606.465,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151656","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151656","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb386aef19028824dbb7e796690f3f0abb2eadb1108e4b84432a31332d4c37b8b925ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:08:12 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NET ZERO DAY，那一天我們有展出所謂的氫能測試平臺，氫能在2050國發會的路徑圖裡面，將來會占有9%至12%的發電量。工研院對氫能的發展其實在2022年的時候就有氫能應用策略藍圖，在這幾年我們也非常努力，大概可以把它分成三部分跟委員報告，第一部分是氫能生產的部分；第二部分是氫能運輸和儲存的部分；第三部分是氫能的應用部分。關於生產的部分，我們很積極的在做電解氫技術，與日本AIST、德商等等都有合作；關於氫能運輸和儲存，我們有一些防止氫氣洩漏的感測技術；至於氫能應用方面，像燃料電池（Fuel Cell）將來對氫的車的應用，這些都有的。將來氫是不是有辦法變成所謂的基載發電量，跟天然氣一樣，現在我們的試驗是天然氣跟氫能的混燒，將來混燒的百分比會越來越多，最後是不是有辦法用純氫發電，這是大家對於2040、2050的一個期待。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，所以有可能嘛，是不是？你認為？"],["劉院長文雄：我們都有期待。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，你認為現在工研院的技術有沒有辦法成為全球在氫能發展上具有比較關鍵的一個角色呢？有什麼技術？"],["劉院長文雄：剛剛跟委員報告有三個方面，就從生產跟運輸儲存還有應用，我們都是以考慮到臺灣所有的限制，在什麼情況之下，我們應該怎麼樣的發展。"],["謝委員衣鳯：對，氫能未來的發展有沒有辦法取代太陽光電產業，就是成為下一代能源的產業呢？"],["劉院長文雄：取代應該是不至於，但是一定會相輔相成。"],["謝委員衣鳯：是吧！你至少要比它更好，因為太陽光電沒有辦法成為基載，是不是？"],["劉院長文雄：我想能源的配置是各有各的優缺點，我們應該是在配置整個不同能源的來源，太陽光電、風電、地熱等等跟氫能的相輔相成是很重要的。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，我期待啦，我期待我們臺灣氫能的發展，畢竟我們這一次電價的調漲，以及大家對於石化產業還有淨零碳排這樣子的一個議題，我們知道未來我們必須要有低價以及乾淨的能源，這正是大家的期待啦，好不好？"],["劉院長文雄：好，謝謝委員。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝謝衣鳯委員。","陳超明委員已經改書面質詢。接下來請蔡易餘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-9","speakers":["邱議瑩","黃建賓","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林思銘","林岱樺","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","鄭正鈐","謝衣鳯","蔡易餘","何欣純","黃國昌","洪孟楷","黃捷","羅智強","牛煦庭","陳超明","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷","王美惠"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等 21案；二、審查：\n(一)行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(二)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員\n黃建賓等 17 人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案、(六)\n本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員蔡易\n餘等20 人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)本院\n委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及\n第三十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":1.7353437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.68221875,"end":21.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.934718750000002,"end":23.554718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.80784375,"end":25.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.566593750000003,"end":37.932218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.11346875,"end":43.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.85534375,"end":55.937843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.87221875,"end":44.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.862218750000004,"end":54.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.376593750000005,"end":57.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":58.182218750000004,"end":63.143468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.51471875000001,"end":77.30159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.38596875,"end":91.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.16846875,"end":101.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.93909375000001,"end":103.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.67721875000001,"end":108.31784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.38534375,"end":108.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.43596875,"end":108.73971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.73971875000001,"end":113.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.77346875,"end":108.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.95409375000001,"end":134.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.50784375,"end":134.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.86221875,"end":142.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.70534375,"end":139.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.00909375,"end":140.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.15221875,"end":150.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.39659375000002,"end":144.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.41346875000002,"end":144.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.66659375,"end":144.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.93159375000002,"end":152.51346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.51346875000002,"end":156.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.32721875000001,"end":159.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.38159375,"end":162.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.56659375,"end":169.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.43909375,"end":177.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.19721875000002,"end":178.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.92284375,"end":186.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.84159375000002,"end":204.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.80346875,"end":187.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.01846875,"end":188.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.62346875,"end":209.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.06159375000001,"end":211.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.84596875000003,"end":215.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.68909375,"end":220.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.40159375000002,"end":220.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.45221875000001,"end":220.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.78971875000002,"end":224.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.82346875000002,"end":220.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.73846875,"end":228.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.97409375,"end":268.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.77971875,"end":231.21846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.62346875,"end":232.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.68096875000003,"end":277.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.55721875,"end":283.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.30284375,"end":286.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.23096875000005,"end":286.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.51721875000004,"end":293.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.51659375,"end":296.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.03909375,"end":336.36659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.97409375,"end":337.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.29034375000003,"end":344.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.39034375,"end":351.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.48659375,"end":361.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.77346875,"end":351.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.60409375,"end":355.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.83096875,"end":394.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.75034375,"end":364.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00"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案 請現一份委員發言。主席,早安。請王部長。請部長。還有水利署長。來,水利署賴署長。"},{"start":28.86,"end":30.341,"text":"負責行政院負責行政院負責行政院負責"},{"start":58.223,"end":86.583,"text":"我再跟委員確認指的是哪一個部分。那我想要說的是從我們就是說西部的這個相關的水能源就是水環境的計劃裡面我們過去也在推廣珍珠串的西部廊道的供水管網對不對現在目前的進度是如何我知道說像我們的鳥嘴潭的人工湖是已經完成了"},{"start":86.943,"end":112.853,"text":"那他可以供給我們彰化多少用水?署長你也說一下。謝謝首先第一個這個珍樹村計畫是部長在百年大憾的時候提出來的那相關的這個各項的工作包括這個圖上面的我們的進度都很順利那第二個部分是鳥水潭人工湖啊我們六個湖區都已經完成蓄水了那未來對彰化的部分的話可以取代原來的地下水每日21萬噸"},{"start":114.073,"end":132.003,"text":"所以會提供給彰化21萬噸的用水對不對那我想要瞭解就是說在水環境的計畫裡面為什麼浮流水的開發工程第二期我知道是大概有5900多萬為什麼執行率好像只有30點多%"},{"start":134.926,"end":143.349,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案．一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案．一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21"},{"start":163.618,"end":178.521,"text":"人工湖的部分剛剛已經跟委員說明了雖然說他是坐在南投但是他主要的效益是在彰化所以我們也沒有就是在平地人工湖的部分沒有規劃在彰化來進行相關的就是計劃是不是"},{"start":180.483,"end":204.019,"text":"這個計畫裡面我們有一個浮流水在所謂彰化的北邊在烏溪的部分烏溪在彰化市市的北邊嘛對不對我們我記得過去的時候好像那個王部長也有過去看過現在目前進展是如何未來如果就是因為氣候變遷導致又又有嚴重的缺水的情況我們目前有沒有辦法因應"},{"start":205.259,"end":231.714,"text":"絕對有辦法因應現在在珍珠串的計劃裡面特別是在這張圖裡面有一個台中至雲林的這個水資源調度那這個部分的話彰化跟台中之間會有20萬噸的調度能力那至於彰化跟雲林之間還有12萬噸的調度能力那這個都是雙向的比如說現在我們在彰化沿著這個台一線有時候北水可以南調有時候南水可以北調對不對"},{"start":232.875,"end":240.886,"text":"凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":250.438,"end":251.959,"text":"立法院第11會期經濟委員會及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21案"},{"start":268.695,"end":271.457,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案件事實上已經獲得控制。"},{"start":290.726,"end":295.011,"text":"劉院長劉院長我想請問一下就是機載電力是指我們基本的發電來源能夠穩定供電需要的時候可以生產"},{"start":311.129,"end":313.87,"text":"實現工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":339.02,"end":342.33,"text":"新能的發展有沒有可能成為一種積載的電力?」"},{"start":346.734,"end":375.972,"text":"首先我謝謝委員上禮拜到我們工研院的一去那一天我們有展出的所謂的氫能測試平台那氫能在整個2050的國發會的那個路徑圖裡面將來是會佔有9到12%的一個發電量那我們對氫能工研院對氫能的一個發展其實在2022年的時候我們一個氫能應用的策略的藍圖那在這幾年我們非常努力大家把它分成三部分"},{"start":376.352,"end":384.197,"text":"立法院第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第"},{"start":395.203,"end":395.963,"text":"三十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":413.811,"end":426.108,"text":"所謂的積載的發電量,就是跟天然氣一樣,現在我們試驗的是天然氣跟氫能的混燒,那將來是混燒的百分比會越來越多,最後是不是有辦法用純氫發電,這是大家對於2040、2050的一個期待。」"},{"start":430.213,"end":454.691,"text":"對,所以有可能嘛,是不是?你認為?我們都有期待對,阿你認為現在工研院的技術裡面有沒有辦法成為就是全球在氫能發展上面裡面比較關鍵的一個角色呢?剛剛跟委員報告了幾個三個方面就從生產跟運輸儲存還有一個應用我們都是以考慮到台灣的所有的限制那在什麼情況之下我們應該怎麼樣的發展?"},{"start":456.266,"end":475.026,"text":"對那有沒有辦法青能未來的發展有沒有辦法取代太陽光電產業就是成為下一代的能源的產業呢取代應該是不至於但是一定會相輔相成是嗎有沒有就是你至少要比他更好因為太陽光電沒有辦法成為基載嗎是不是"},{"start":476.015,"end":477.597,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查：一、處理或審查"},{"start":497.659,"end":519.78,"text":"以及就是大家對於就是石化產業還有淨零碳排的這樣子的一個議題我們知道說未來我們必須要有低價以及乾淨的能源那這正是我們大家的期待了好不好好謝謝委員好謝謝謝一鳳委員那陳超明委員已經改書面質詢接下來我們請蔡易瑜委員發言"}]}},{"id":"151654","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151654","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3451e22baa1dcee3e5a1f541440a910baeadb1108e4b84432f24a9b87407f9c345ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:16:41 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11:25:12","影片長度":"00:08:31","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案4案。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":511,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:25:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:16:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":660,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時16分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：好，有請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：陳委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：主委早安。今天繼續跟您討論我們辦公室一直持續關心的問題，在過去審查的部分，我們其實跟你們一直討論到關於輻射防護跟輻安管制的問題，之前主委也跟我們說過關於游離輻射防護法多年沒有修正的地方，去年核安會有預告即將有修正草案，上個月在業務報告質詢的時候，主委這邊也有提到是持續辦理修正草案的研議作業當中，再次跟主委確定目前的進度是？"],["陳主任委員東陽：會等到行政院新的團隊上來再跟行政院做一些溝通。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以這邊您會仔細做好……您會留任嗎？還是……會持續做好交接跟討論嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個不是很清楚。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，沒關係，我想我們應該有更多委員都會一起關心這個議題，主要是因為一般民眾如果去做X光檢查的時候，他們是偶爾接觸到，可是我們更關心的是相關的從業人員，他們因為工作的關係，頻繁地接觸到放射線，所以我們認為更需要積極地協助做劑量管制，確保放射線不會對相關從業人員的身體造成什麼不健康的影響。所以關於核安會的修法方向，我們也再次提醒，請協助降低從業人員的劑量，我想你們一直表現出很積極的態度，這邊先感謝主委跟給予肯定。同時你們有提到後續還會做不預警的稽查，這個部分是不是也請主委再次回應一下？"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，這個部分是我們一直在努力的，我之前有講過輻射環境人員的安全，在今年的這一次，上個月到這個月，我們多做了哪些事情呢？我們給所有的護理學校、大專院校，大三以上的學生，我們有38家，我們會辦理10場的教育訓練活動，所以前一陣子陳靜敏委員，上一屆的……"],["陳委員培瑜：是，沒錯、沒錯。"],["陳主任委員東陽：他還寫了LINE來感謝我，就是這個部分，今年也配合心導管室加入品保的作業……"],["陳委員培瑜：對，其實這個也是後續我要問到的，我覺得這個部分除了開始有相關課程之外，在課程之後，針對學生或是上課的從業人員，給予相關的問卷，確保你們提供的課程是不是真的有服務到他們現場的需要，我想這個部分也要請主委後續再繼續地督促相關課程的進行。"],["陳主任委員東陽：我們會持續滾動來修正、來精進。"],["陳委員培瑜：另外，我們之前也關心過關於商用航空空勤人員，他們接觸到宇宙射線，在輻射防護空勤人員劑量管制的部分，目前你們的規劃有沒有機會納入後續游離輻射法的防護規範之下？"],["陳主任委員東陽：有的，空勤人員，一般ICRP，就是國際的學會，大概就是5到10個毫西弗、每年，臺灣一般來講，因為我們緯度比較低，所以大概沒有這樣的問題，但是今年10月我們跟民航局……"],["陳委員培瑜：去年10月嗎？還是今年？"],["陳主任委員東陽：今年、今年，我們跟民航局有要合作，在這個部分做空勤人員宇宙射線的管理試辦計畫……"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個部分我們會結合相關的人員來做一個試辦計畫，也跟6家國內航空公司合作，來試辦一下空勤人員健康檢查的情況怎麼樣，得到的數據也會提供給航空公司，作為他們調整航班跟班次、頻次的參考，大概跟委員說明如上。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，所以看起來你們10月跟民航局會召開會議，然後6家國內航空公司還有國營航空公司都會進行後續的討論，同時把這個相關數據作為後續研議入法的可能性，我相信這些所有的準備跟研議都是為了相關從業人員的安全，這個部分也要拜託主委這邊持續監督，好嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝。接下來一樣還是要談到含氚廢水的事情，其實在前一個會期，包含召委宜瑾委員也提到中國排放核廢水的事情，我們知道日本方提供相關的數字是比較科學跟比較積極的，而且應該是相對公開透明的，可是我想很多人都在關心跟擔心中國這邊，不知道主委您目前掌握進度是？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個部分我們也正在進行，中國大陸沿岸核電廠有58座，還有十幾座在興建當中……"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["陳主任委員東陽：除了我們海域的量測、監視之外，剛才我也提到，我們將來會利用海研船增加不同的點位跟頻次來估算、實際量測相關含氚廢水的情況。另外一方面，我們也跟氣象署，國研院跟氣象署合作做擴散跟洋流的預報模式，瞭解我們臺灣海峽部分的情況，過去我們是針對日本含氚廢水，今年應該是第三季，會來做擴散的模擬，跟委員說明。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們有看到你們相關業務報告裡面確實有提到第三季會開始執行相關的研究，如同剛剛主委您說的，可是後續公布的頻率呢？或者是我們如何讓國人安心？因為自主檢測，我們當然相信臺灣的研究量能，可是有沒有可能有一些我們沒有辦法探測到，或是不清楚的，但可能還是會引起國人擔心的部分？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個部分我們還會來細緻化的討論跟精進，瞭解一下看看怎麼樣可以比較完整。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，關於後續的公布頻率，目前有沒有預定的方向跟可能性的規劃？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我們還在……"],["陳委員培瑜：我還是要再次提醒，其實關於日本含氚廢水的部分，我相信你們已經也做了非常多，不管是網路上的圖卡或是說明，或是像這樣在業務報告當中不斷提出訴求，希望讓國人安心，可是我想中國這部分確實是讓大家會比較擔心、相對擔心。所以我剛剛問到，除了你們相關的研究計畫之外，公布的頻率或是後續跟國人溝通的管道，我想這也請主委這邊要一再的督促相關同仁，是不是要更加友善的溝通，因為溝通不是只是把訊息散播出去，而是讓兩端的人共同走到一個可以對話的平臺上，這個溝通平臺的另外一端應該是臺灣的國民、臺灣的公民，還有包含臺灣的漁民，所以我想這個部分是不是請主委再多做一些說明或可能性的規劃？"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，我們會再來努力一下。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，以上，謝謝主委。最後我還有1分鐘，可不可以請一下海委會，現場有同仁來，對嗎？好，主委請回座，謝謝。","我這邊就快速跟海委會確定一下，我知道你們在週末其實已經做了相關釐清，但是我想還是讓你們說明一下，關於民眾通報，我想你們也跟臺北市有合作，快速去到了現場，我們一下子聽到他們不是真的鯨骨，還是說是假的？是廣告不實？還是到底發生了什麼事情？目前可不可以請您快速回應一下？"],["張代理主任秘書至維：是，報告委員，這件事情目前海委會海保署定調它是一個……已經在送驗當中。"],["陳委員培瑜：送驗當中，結果多久會出來？目前的規劃是？"],["張代理主任秘書至維：對不起，我們沒有準備到這個，但我們回去會瞭解。"],["陳委員培瑜：那我們辦公室會持續跟你們追蹤，好嗎？"],["張代理主任秘書至維：好的。"],["陳委員培瑜：因為我想非常多海洋保育團體還有所有去到現場的民眾都非常的詫愕，怎麼會發生這樣的事情？"],["張代理主任秘書至維：是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：但我們知道你們第一時間有主動去關心……"],["張代理主任秘書至維：第一時間就處理了。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以後續我們辦公室也會持續再跟你們追蹤相關議題討論。"],["張代理主任秘書至維：好的。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["張代理主任秘書至維：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員。主席在這裡再宣告一下，本來一開始有說林倩綺委員質詢完之後要來處理解凍案跟臨時提案，現在改為吳沛憶委員質詢完我們再來處理。","接下來請林倩綺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葉元之","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","范雲","張嘉郡","吳春城"],"page_start":251,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會\n列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查 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陳委員好好 主委早安那今天繼續跟您討論我們辦公室一直持續關心的這個問題由來在過去審查的部分呢我們其實跟你們一直討論到關於輻射防護跟服安管制的問題那之前呢主委也跟我們說過關於這個游離輻射防護法多年沒有修正的地方那去年核安委有預告即將有修正草案那上個月在業務報告質詢的時候主委這邊也有提到是持續辦理修正草案的研議作業當中"},{"start":44.235,"end":62.544,"text":"目前再次跟主委確定目前的進度是?會等到行政院新的團隊上來再跟行政院做一些溝通所以這邊您會留任嗎?還是會持續做好交接跟討論嗎?這個不是很清楚沒關係"},{"start":63.484,"end":85.27,"text":"那我想我們應該更多委員都會一起關心這個議題主要是因為相關的一般民眾如果去做X光檢查的時候他們是偶爾接觸到可是我們更關心的是相關的從業人員他們因為工作的關係頻繁地接觸到放射線所以我們認為更需要積極的協助做劑量管制確保放射線不會對相關從人的身體造成什麼不健康的影響"},{"start":86.61,"end":103.596,"text":"所以關於核安會的修法方向我們也再次提醒請協助降低從業人員的劑量那我想你們一直表現出很積極的態度這邊先感謝主委跟給予肯定但同時你們有提到後續還會做不預警的稽查這個部分是不是也請主委再次回應一下"},{"start":105.037,"end":124.295,"text":"這個部分是我們一直在努力的我之前有講過胡適環境、人員的安全我們今年這次上個月到這個月我們多做了哪些事情我們給所有的護理學校"},{"start":125.393,"end":140.085,"text":"大專業院校大三以上的學生我們有38家我們會辦理10場的教育訓練活動所以這個前一陣子陳敬明委員上一屆的那他還寫了那樣來感謝我就是說這個部分"},{"start":144.708,"end":151.453,"text":"那麼今年也配合這個新島管事加入這個平保的作業對那其實這個也是後續我要問到那如果我覺得這個部分有除了開始相關課程之外我想課程之後針對學生或是上課的從業人員給予相關的問卷確保是不是你們提供的課程真的有服務到他們現場的需要我想這個部分也要請主委後續再繼續的督促相關課程的進行我們會持續滾動來修正來進進"},{"start":172.709,"end":194.224,"text":"關於商用航空空勤人員他們接觸到宇宙射線在輻射防護、空勤人員劑量管制的部分目前你們的規劃有沒有機會納入後續游離輻射法的防護規範之下嗎?有的,這個空勤人員一般ICRP就是國際的學會大概就是5到10個豪熙伙每年"},{"start":195.545,"end":217.778,"text":"台灣一般來講因為我們是緯度比較低所以大概沒有這樣的問題但是今年10月我們跟民航局有要合作在這個部分做空情人員宇宙線的管理事辦計畫"},{"start":219.079,"end":247.9,"text":"那麼這個部分我們是會結合相關的人員來做一個試辦計畫那麼也跟六家國內的航空公司做合作那麼來試辦一下就是說空情人員那麼他健康檢查他的這個情況怎麼樣那麼得到的數據也會提供給航空公司作為他們調整航班跟班次跟評次的一些參考"},{"start":252.261,"end":270.086,"text":"十月跟民航局會召開會議六家國內航空公司和國營航空公司會進行後續討論從此把相關數據作為後續演繹入法的可能性我相信我們這些所有的準備跟演繹都是為了相關從業人員的安全所以這個部分也要拜託主委持續監督"},{"start":275.427,"end":298.817,"text":"韓川沸水事件在前一個會期主委趙偉、伊金委員提到中國排放核廢水的事情因為我們知道日本方提供相關的數字是比較科學跟比較積極的而且應該相對是公開透明的可是我想很多人都在關心跟擔心中國這邊不知道主委您這邊目前的掌握進度是"},{"start":300.333,"end":325.285,"text":"這個部分我們也正在進行中國大陸沿岸核電廠有58座台有十幾座在興建當中這個部分除了我們海域的量測監視之外剛才我有提到我們將來會利用海岩船增加不同的點位跟頻次來估算"},{"start":327.609,"end":334.508,"text":"實際量測相關的這些含氚廢水的一些情況另外一方面"},{"start":335.526,"end":356.404,"text":"我們也跟氣象署、國研院跟氣象署合作做擴散跟洋流的預報模式來了解我們臺灣海峽部分的一個情況那過去我們是針對日本寒川廢水那麼我們今年應該是第三季吧會來做這些擴散的模擬跟委員說明"},{"start":357.325,"end":377.16,"text":"第三季會開始執行相關研究可是後續公佈的頻率呢?或是我們如何讓國人安心?自主檢測我們當然相信我們台灣的研究量能可是有沒有可能有一些我們沒有辦法探測到他們不清楚的但是可能還是會引起國人擔心的部分?"},{"start":377.881,"end":389.087,"text":"那這個部分我們還會來細緻化的討論跟精進然後來瞭解一下看看怎麼樣可以比較完整那後續的公佈頻率目前有沒有預定的方向跟可能性的規劃我們還在"},{"start":392.83,"end":407.441,"text":"因為我想再次還是要提醒就是其實關於日本含氚廢水的部分我相信你們已經也做了非常多不管是網路上的圖卡或是說明或是像這樣子在業務報告當中也不斷提出訴求希望讓國人安心可是我想要中國這個部分確實是讓大家會比較擔心相對擔心的"},{"start":411.644,"end":440.003,"text":"除了你們相關的研究計畫之外公布的頻率或是後續跟國人溝通的管道我想這也是主委這邊要一再的督促相關的同仁是不是要更加友善的溝通因為我想溝通不是只是把訊息散播出去而是讓兩端的人共同走到一個可以對話的平台上那我想這個溝通平台另外一端應該是台灣的國民、台灣的公民關心相關還有包含台灣的漁民所以我想這個部分是不是再請這邊主委多做一些說明或可能性的規劃"},{"start":440.663,"end":451.614,"text":"好 那我們會再來努力一下好 以上好 那謝謝主委最後我還有1分鐘那可不可以請一下海委會現場有同仁來 對嗎好 謝謝那主委請回座 謝謝"},{"start":455.221,"end":476.625,"text":"我想這邊就快速跟海委會確定一下我知道其實你們在週末已經做了相關釐清但是我想我們還是讓你們說明一下關於這個民眾通報然後我想你們也跟台北市這邊有合作快速去到了現場那我們一下子聽到他們到底是不是真的禁錮還是說是假的然後但是是廣告不實還是到底發生了什麼事情目前這邊可不可以請您快速回應一下"},{"start":477.108,"end":478.571,"text":"海保署已經在送驗當中,結果多久會出來?"},{"start":490.205,"end":505.89,"text":"目前的規劃是?對不起我們沒有準備到這個但我們會回去瞭解那我們辦公室也持續跟你們追蹤好嗎?因為我想非常多海洋保育團體還有所有去到現場的民眾都非常的剎惡就是怎麼會發生這樣的事情但我們知道你們第一時間有出動去關心所以後續我們辦公室也會持續跟你們追蹤相關議題討論好謝謝主席謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151653","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151653","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb33d2b3cab2c7d1a566abc9c09ba589754eadb1108e4b84432951c1d5c912628115ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"11:11:47 - 11:18:52","影片長度":"00:07:05","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":425,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:18:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:11:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":627,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（11時11分）感謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：請內政部部長。","等一下請相關單位跟徐欣瑩委員大家一起溝通、瞭解一下。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["丁委員學忠：感謝部長，時間比較短，我直接念給你聽。現在的國土計畫預定明年要開始上路，很多縣市對於這個分區圖都還有意見，所以針對國土計畫法，我希望行政院可以再討論，也希望未來的部長可以到地方上去瞭解地方的需求，跟地方政府好好討論、好好溝通，再來擬定健全的計畫。","在此，我要向部長報告的是，整個臺灣最重要的蛤仔養殖產業基地就在雲林臺西，針對雲林臺西養殖區未來的定位，我需要跟部長討論一下，同時我也要為那些辛苦的養殖業者請命，請內政部針對臺西養殖區的國土計畫及未來的發展規劃，可以站在百姓立場。日前雲林縣政府已經跟經濟部、農業部共同規劃漁業養殖園區，希望內政部可以同意協助推動，讓在這個土地辛苦謀生的鄉親，可以有一個安身立命的地方。同時，因為建立智慧科技養殖專區，可以吸引年輕人回來故鄉工作，避免人口外流。臺西養殖區在民國80年編定為雲林離島工業區的臺西區，土地使用分區變更為丁種工業用地，這30年來，雲林離島工業區就像孫悟空的那個緊箍咒，腦袋被拘束住了，很多條例都被那個規定綁死，完全限制了土地的發展，甚至像孤兒一樣，道路、堤防壞了，都沒有辦法向中央爭取經費來維修，甚至業者想要提升品牌和銷路，都因為這個離島工業區而被打回票。部長，這已經是超過30年的不公平對待，是不是要想辦法來解決？這個部分要拜託部長，因為時間比較短，沒關係，我講給你聽就好。","是不是可以透過國土計畫法替鄉親解決這個問題？這個問題已經傷害鄉親、阻礙臺西發展30年，請部長和相關單位可以跟本席一起研議，幫這些養殖業者找出路，讓這塊土地可以地盡其利，讓國土永續發展。部長，可以吧？","最近本席和雲林縣議會副議長、縣政府及養殖業者有多方面的討論與溝通，提出將臺西工業區的養殖區域改為漁業養殖園區，引進智慧養殖業，這樣就可以替這個丁種工業用地解套，同時也可以帶動養殖業的轉型，否則因為受到法令約束，導致很多沒有辦法認證的部分，希望內政部可以協助土地變更使用，讓他們實現長久以來的願望。","本席在此也要提出，未來經濟部、農業部要跟內政部共同討論這個園區的土地利用問題，建議成立臺灣傳統養殖業產業升級輔導專案小組，專門來負責協助臺灣傳統養殖業者解套土地定位的問題，尤其是我們臺西工業區的定位問題，協助縣政府推動漁業養殖園區，先從科技養殖示範區開始，落實漁業可以轉型工業化，引進生物科技產業的進駐，這個部分要拜託部長，部長應該聽得懂我的意思吧？還剩1分鐘時間，請回應，應該都有聽懂吧？"],["吳署長欣修：有啦！感謝委員，委員對這個問題瞭解得很深入，其實國土計畫是把現有的使用項目，包括過去的分區做一個重新的認定，當然在過程當中，包括你說的養殖園區，主要是農業部過去如果已經有開發完成，自然會編定為產業園區，但現在是卡在經濟部把它規劃為離島工業區，結果卻互相牽連到……"],["丁委員學忠：對。"],["吳署長欣修：所以農業部也不認定。這個部分，因為國土功能分區掌握在地方政府，我們會來瞭解縣政府是否曾邀集工業局、農業部大家重新討論。我們會來瞭解相關情形，可能未來這兩個部會也有一些建議，不過我想地方的意見表達得很清楚，就是希望可以維持啦！"],["丁委員學忠：我相信雲林縣政府是非常樂意協助這些養殖業者，現在也需要中央全力配合……"],["吳署長欣修：是，我瞭解，這部分我們會來瞭解看看縣府的意願。"],["丁委員學忠：希望大家可以共同協商、討論，討論好了之後，我們會到養殖協會召集這些養殖戶，大家也可以聽聽他們的意見，共同討論出一個最好的方式，以解決這個長久以來的問題。"],["吳署長欣修：是，到時候應該也可以邀請經濟部一起討論，因為離島工業區……"],["丁委員學忠：相關的單位啦！"],["吳署長欣修：具體的時程，其實我們到現在還不瞭解……"],["丁委員學忠：對，這個部分就拜託了。"],["吳署長欣修：所以需要部會的協調。"],["丁委員學忠：是啊！是啊！再拜託啦！"],["吳署長欣修：我們會盡力來協調這個案子。"],["丁委員學忠：好，再拜託喔！謝謝！"],["主席：好，謝謝丁學忠委員的質詢，謝謝，請內政部全盤瞭解未來的國土規劃。","再來請黃國昌委員。","羅美玲委員質詢完，我們休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-14","speakers":["吳琪銘","莊瑞雄","羅美玲","陳玉珍","黃捷","陳培瑜","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","吳沛憶","王美惠","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","李柏毅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","黃國昌","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳菁徽","陳冠廷","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案；二、審查內政\n部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)\n行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六\n條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國\n籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員\n林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員莊\n瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案、 (十五)委員林岱樺等\n17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四\n條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":7.101593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.907218750000002,"end":47.500343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.599093750000002,"end":10.662218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.15159375,"end":11.337218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.27659375,"end":48.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.508468750000006,"end":61.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.72596875000001,"end":63.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.632843750000006,"end":111.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.26659375000001,"end":197.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.87346875,"end":200.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.78846875000002,"end":202.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.45909375000002,"end":223.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.91159375,"end":296.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.04784375,"end":305.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.43034375,"end":310.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.33721875000003,"end":313.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.36596875000004,"end":313.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.70346875,"end":362.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.95596875,"end":318.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.96784375000004,"end":323.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.25221875,"end":339.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.04471875,"end":345.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.61409375,"end":346.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.31846875,"end":347.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.70159375000003,"end":353.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.19409375000004,"end":360.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.68721875,"end":370.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.37409375000004,"end":397.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.87534375,"end":375.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.91284375000004,"end":380.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.97721875,"end":410.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":401.68971875000005,"end":402.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.92159375,"end":404.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.55409375000005,"end":405.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.43159375000005,"end":406.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.56221875,"end":409.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.78534375000004,"end":412.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.24096875000004,"end":411.34221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.00034375,"end":416.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.11409375000005,"end":413.53596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.66659375,"end":415.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.47659375,"end":417.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.45534375000005,"end":416.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.69971875000005,"end":424.97721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":6.794,"text":"我們相關單位跟我們的信心與委員大家再溝通了解一下好不好。感謝伯父聽,時間比較多,我直接亮給你聽。我們現在國土紀委我們一定每年要開始上路,有這麼多關係,對這個分析度都要有這麼多要討論,我希望說我們這個國土紀委會,"},{"start":25.566,"end":32.19,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。"},{"start":49.571,"end":54.858,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":61.932,"end":69.356,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。八、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":89.087,"end":92.551,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":112.298,"end":117.92,"text":"內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":142.19,"end":152.177,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。八、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。九、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。十、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。十、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。十、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。十、審查內政部主管"},{"start":170.709,"end":177.371,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":197.918,"end":210.068,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":223.999,"end":233.465,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。七、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。八、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":253.177,"end":257.2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為這次的修法其實牽動的面向非常廣可以算是幾乎像是全文翻修當然也是希望能夠配合這個時代的進步然後來做一些新的立法"},{"start":78.114,"end":80.436,"text":"審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人修正草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人修正草案案。"},{"start":98.087,"end":99.228,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":112.412,"end":129.562,"text":"但是呢,在你們這次的修法裡面呢,我看到了有一個比較嚴重的問題,就是你們在第三章調查程序的第二節裡面,你們卻定定了很多都是跟形式、呃,程序、形式偵查有關的,呃,呃,形式調查有關的相關規定,"},{"start":133.504,"end":141.867,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。六、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。七、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案。"},{"start":161.075,"end":186.765,"text":"去訂定刑事偵查還有刑事調查程序。是,謝謝委員。我跟委員報告我們過去在實踐上面102年之前軍法還在,早期的時候陸海空軍懲罰法從最早民國19年當時那個立法體力當時就是如果一個官兵的犯忌的行為他是很嚴重的話就是送軍法就會進入到所謂的刑事訴訟的那個軍事審判的這些相關的程序"},{"start":187.005,"end":189.587,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人處理法草案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":217.105,"end":217.985,"text":"事件處理法草案案。"},{"start":235.551,"end":255.661,"text":"可是事實上我還是認為這樣的法體律的規範其實是有很大的疑慮的似乎是不適合定在陸海空軍懲罰法要不然你就把它定在軍審判法或者是刑事訴訟法裡面的相關規定可能都還比較適合所以你們現在定在這邊感覺上是非常突兀而且不合體律的修法"},{"start":258.803,"end":260.285,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":275.29,"end":275.97,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":290.848,"end":291.928,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具國防法務官徐巧芯等20人擬具國防法務官徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":320.856,"end":323.859,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":346.297,"end":349.198,"text":"我認為說其實國防部這邊其實要更有大詞一些就是我們就需要軍法人員我們就需要軍法官這是維持軍紀維持紀律這個非常重要的一個人力資源你這個我們講養兵千日用在一時不能講說現在軍事審判法因為這個在平時沒有適用軍事審判法的必要所以我們就不培養軍法官我覺得這個"},{"start":371.023,"end":398.329,"text":"邏輯是錯誤的。」是我跟委員報告就考試當初我們在談的時候就說軍法官在軍事審判法裡面有定義他就是院長、檢察長、責任檢察官、庭長然後軍事檢察官、軍事審判官那如果平時沒有軍事審判現在目前平時沒有如果平時沒有軍事審判當時他們認為說那你做這個考試考完了之後沒有辦法派出可能會有落差是我想這邊還是要跟國防部再講這個在依照軍事審判法裡面的規定"},{"start":399.429,"end":422.631,"text":"主動權事由國防部提出,考試院只是配合辦理。」主動權事由國防部提出,考試院只是配合辦理。主動權事由國防部提出,考試院只是配合辦理。主動權事由國防部提出,考試院只是配合辦理。主動權事由國防部提出,考試院只是配合辦理。主動權事由國防部提出,考試院只是配合辦理。主動權事由國防部提出,考試院只是配合辦理。主動權事由國防部提出,考試院只是配合辦理。主動權事由國防部提出,考試院只是配合辦理。主動權事由國防部提出,考試院只是配合辦理。主動權事由國防部提出,考試院只是配合辦理。主動權事"}]}},{"id":"151651","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151651","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb35b3120933e24277aa8d86c0863c2f2caeadb1108e4b8443208f75701a873fd4f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"11:06:56 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11:16:54","影片長度":"00:09:58","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案。\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員黃建賓等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-9"},"duration":598,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:16:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:06:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":600,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（11時7分）謝謝主席，我想請王美花部長。"],["主席：來，請部長。"],["鄭委員正鈐：還有我們內政部消防署副組長，今天是副組長來。"],["主席：請消防署副組長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：今天我們委員會這邊特別在審工廠管理輔導法，為什麼我同時請部長還有我們內政部的代表一起來？第一個，我們看到520之後美花部長可能有另外一個位置要去，我想說，雖然之前我們對經濟部這邊也有很多不同的質疑，可是在工廠管理輔導法這件事情當中，我覺得經濟部顯然比內政部有誠意的多，要來解決去年屏東明揚大火之後所產生的問題。這一點我覺得要給經濟部一個肯定，我們今天在審工廠管理輔導法，就是因為去年明揚大火之後，工廠當中有很多危險物品，可是這個問題不只是我們經濟部要面對，內政部消防署是真正相關的關係人，可是我想問一下內政部，你們的消防法提出修正了沒？送進院會裡面來了沒？"],["杜副組長汪濤：跟委員報告，其實我們本來已經都修好完成，可是在這個過程中，又要增加有關於消防同仁的職安專章，大概有十三個條文，所以這整個案子，院裡面給我們指示，要整個案子完成之後再來做相關的送審。現在目前的草案已經完成，我們也完成了所謂的性別以及……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK！簡單回復，你們消防法的修正什麼時候會送到立法院來？因為行政院這邊也都還沒有過。"],["杜副組長汪濤：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：因為屆期不連續，所以我為什麼特別講說經濟部在這件事情當中要解決危險物品處理的部分，比內政部來得有誠意得多？因為同樣都碰到屆期不連續，可是經濟部已經送進來了，今天經濟委員會已經在審了，所以你把這個訊息帶回去，請內政部加快腳步，好不好？其實去年明揚大火之後，消防人員他們提出了三個主要的訴求，請都好好地加以考慮，盡快把消防法再送進立法院裡面來。"],["杜副組長汪濤：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK！我想在這邊跟美花部長也做個溝通，520後不管你到哪裡去，我相信其實也都會有一個好的發展空間，我想特別提到，我們今天在講工廠輔導管理法的時候，因為它也是去年12月4號送進來，因為碰到屆期不連續，所以我們現在馬上就在送審。"],["王部長美花：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：在這過程當中，我們也碰到了一個情況，就是去年在送工廠輔導管理法時，它也已經有預告今年6月要開始執行，是不是？子法的部分？"],["王部長美花：那個是子法的部分。"],["鄭委員正鈐：預告子法的部分？"],["王部長美花：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：有關預告子法的部分有三個子法，都是今年6月要開始執行，是不是？"],["王部長美花：兩個子法，是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK！就是工廠危險物品申報辦法這個部分。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：跟工廠危險物品投保公共意外責任保險辦法，這兩個子法。"],["王部長美花：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：6月份要開始，在這個過程當中，我們有沒有在地方上做很多的說明？"],["王部長美花：有，這個確實，其實處罰已經到後端，比較重要是要讓廠商知道什麼東西是要申報的，這個就又講到他要申報之前，他問這個到底是不是要申報，我不清楚，所以相關的資訊系統，我們就在過去幾個月跟環境部、內政部有做非常多的討論……"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK！因為新竹科學園區這邊，其實工廠也非常多，也非常的密集，請問有沒有說明會到新竹竹科那邊去做說明？"],["王部長美花：有、有，我們也跟相關的科學園區管理局密切配合，也跟他們做溝通，我也跟委員報告，其實科學園區的比較單純。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK！針對明揚大火之後，經濟部這邊的動作，我覺得還是值得肯定，就是這個部分針對這件事情的處理，因為到時候整個稽查還是在內政部那邊，所以我們希望內政部能夠儘快，因為經濟部這邊是把工廠危險物品管理能夠先申報，也網路化。"],["王部長美花：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：希望能夠用最有效率的部分，之後真正在執行還是消防相關的單位，還有地方政府，我們希望這個部分，都能夠很有效地去做一個溝通，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是，沒有錯。"],["鄭委員正鈐：再來，我還是針對電的問題跟美花部長做一個溝通，因為4月20號台電有發表一個新聞稿，說實話，王總經理被慰留下來，我相信對於整個台電接下來的穩定發展，我覺得還是可以值得肯定，因為坦白說，在野黨對於王總經理也沒有覺得他必須要下臺來負責這件事情，我只想針對，因為在整個台電新聞稿當中，他提到說「少數人滑著3C產品使用便利電力，卻對台電酸言酸語」，部長覺得這樣一個新聞稿適合嗎？"],["王部長美花：我想在過去那一段時間、那幾天，確實因為地震造成電廠故障，另外有一些設備故障的部分，確實網路上一些比較負面的評論，讓台電的同仁非常受傷。"],["鄭委員正鈐：理解，我們也知道基層的台電員工其實不容易，415確實也沒有出現跳電的情況，是大家把它cover起來，至於能源政策還有一些電價採購這部分，那是另外一個問題，因為之前講很多……"],["王部長美花：是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我只想針對，因為他的新聞稿當中提到了用3C的人酸言酸語，我覺得其實不是很恰當，就像所有的人都用電，我們每個人都用電，可是我們還是一樣要監督台電很多部分的執行，所以我覺得這樣的新聞稿其實是有一些問題的，希望台電之後在整個新聞稿的處理當中能夠相對友善，而且更謙虛去看民眾的聲音。另外，新聞稿當中還提到一個點，2023年的事故停電次數與2012年比降低七成，部長，你對這個部分怎麼看？"],["王部長美花：確實，我們的事故每一次都有做相關的統計。"],["鄭委員正鈐：我要特別講一個狀態，我看了年報資料之後發現一個情況，從台電年報近10年主要經營數據指標，我們看到一個情況，從102年到110年每戶停電時間及每戶停電次數其實都差不多，每戶停電時間都在16分鐘，每戶每年的停電次數大概都是0.2次，數字事實上是差不多的，所以我對於減少七成這個數字其實是有一些疑惑的。因為我們看到整個年報資料發現數字是差不多的，這10年來並沒有太大的差距，尤其是在106年、110年及111年時有3次大停電，我們都把它排除在外，所以算起來的數字並沒有很大的差異。我對於台電的新聞稿，碰到問題要解決都沒有問題，可是如果有去修正或包裝的情況，我就覺得不是很妥當，部長在520之前還是可以對台電有很多的指導和指示，我們希望台電在面臨接下來的停電相關問題時的危機處理能夠更有誠意，而不是不斷地用美化數字的方式來解決這個問題。我們覺得它有不太精確的部分，如果有要補充說明的話，再來本辦公室做說明，對於這些數字怎麼來，我看到的都是年報上的數字，但我們覺得是有問題的。"],["王部長美花：好，關於停電的次數，臺灣是用停電超過1分鐘，如果超過1分鐘，我們就會算1次，有的國家是用超過5分鐘算1次，所以每個國家不一樣，但我們是用嚴格的1分鐘，超過1分鐘就會算1次。"],["鄭委員正鈐：部長，我理解。如果是減少七成的狀態，數字不應該是差不多一樣的數字。"],["王部長美花：數字不一樣。"],["鄭委員正鈐：針對台電怎麼去算這個數字，我希望再跟本辦公室做一個詳細說明。"],["王部長美花：我們再跟委員說明。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝，以上。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員。接下來請謝衣鳯委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-9","speakers":["邱議瑩","黃建賓","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林思銘","林岱樺","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","鄭正鈐","謝衣鳯","蔡易餘","何欣純","黃國昌","洪孟楷","黃捷","羅智強","牛煦庭","陳超明","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷","王美惠"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等 21案；二、審查：\n(一)行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(二)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員\n黃建賓等 17 人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案、(六)\n本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員蔡易\n餘等20 人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)本院\n委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及\n第三十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":2.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.214718750000003,"end":15.015968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.914718750000002,"end":15.758468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.06221875,"end":21.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.247218750000002,"end":22.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.778468750000002,"end":25.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.91721875,"end":26.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.713468750000004,"end":44.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.34034375,"end":46.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.774718750000005,"end":74.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.83784375,"end":78.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.16221875000001,"end":83.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.19096875000001,"end":84.64221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.30034375000001,"end":86.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.49409375,"end":90.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.86909375,"end":100.52159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.96034375,"end":103.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.71096875,"end":104.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.62221875,"end":129.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.96659375,"end":115.05096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.47909375,"end":129.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.83346875,"end":130.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.03596875,"end":133.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.40659375,"end":169.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.79346875000002,"end":170.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.16471875000002,"end":210.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.80596875,"end":198.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.41159375,"end":210.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.44534375,"end":213.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.22534375,"end":215.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.52909375000002,"end":218.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.77784375000002,"end":224.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.91596875000002,"end":225.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.95784375000002,"end":241.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.83909375000002,"end":229.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.69909375,"end":234.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.81284375,"end":235.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.56284375,"end":241.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.57971875,"end":241.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.63034375,"end":241.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.96784375000001,"end":265.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.84846875000002,"end":250.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.83784375,"end":272.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.81596875,"end":269.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.98846875000004,"end":283.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.37909375000004,"end":284.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.67846875000004,"end":285.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.01596875,"end":285.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.35346875,"end":291.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.85034375000004,"end":299.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.95034375,"end":324.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.57721875000004,"end":311.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.89784375,"end":311.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.96534375000005,"end":312.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.31034375,"end":318.68159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.11534375,"end":325.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.44846875,"end":361.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.91534375000003,"end":362.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.42159375,"end":368.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.95221875000004,"end":369.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.86346875000004,"end":381.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.92909375000005,"end":408.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.12471875,"end":399.15846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.15846875000005,"end":399.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.46221875000003,"end":399.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.33409375,"end":436.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.62096875000003,"end":442.17284375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案。"},{"start":242.133,"end":246.216,"text":"有有這個確實其實處罰已經到後端比較重要是要讓廠商知道說你什麼東西是要申報的那這個就有講到說他要申報之前他說那這個到底是不是要申報我不清楚所以相關的資訊系統我們就在這個過去幾個月跟環境部跟內政部有做非常多的討論"},{"start":264.005,"end":266.207,"text":"新竹科學園區管理局 與科學園區管理局 密切配合與科學園區管理局 溝通"},{"start":284.665,"end":285.306,"text":"負責任負責任負責任"},{"start":300.006,"end":302.628,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查一、二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":325.502,"end":354.035,"text":"那我想說在這邊的時候我還是針對電的問題跟對美亞部長做一個溝通因為4月20號的時候臺電有發表一個新聞稿說實話就是王總經理被未留下來我相信對於整個臺電接下來的穩定發展我覺得還是可以值得肯定因為坦白說在野黨對於王總經理也沒有覺得說他必須要下台來負責這件事情那我只想針對因為在整個臺電新聞稿當中他提到說"},{"start":354.935,"end":378.224,"text":"少數人華3C產品使用便利店,你卻對台電酸言酸語。你覺得這樣子的一個新聞稿適合嗎?部長。我想在過去那段時間那幾天確實受到因為地震造成這個電廠故障然後另外有一些設備故障的部分那確實網路上的這一些比較負面的評論非常讓台電的同仁受傷"},{"start":382.025,"end":408.412,"text":"你也知道基層台電的員工其實不容易啦那四一五確實也沒有出現跳電的一個情況確實大家把他cover起來那至於說能源政策還有一些電價零採購這部分的時候那是另外一個問題我先這邊因為之前講很多那我只想針對用信稿當中提到了一個就是用3C的人雙言雙語我覺得其實不是很恰當就像所有的人都用電"},{"start":409.412,"end":435.963,"text":"可是我們每個人都用電可是我們還是一樣要監督台電他很多部分的一個執行所以我覺得這樣的新聞稿我覺得是有一些問題的那希望說台電之後在整個新聞稿的處理當中的時候能夠相對友善而且更謙虛去看民眾的一個聲音那另外當中希望有達東還提到一個點他說2023年的事故停電次數跟2012年比降低七成這件事情部長你對這部分怎麼看"},{"start":437.468,"end":450.443,"text":"確實我們這個事故的這個都是每一次都有做相關的統計的因為我要特別講一個狀態因為我看了整個的一個年報資料當中"},{"start":453.68,"end":454.38,"text":"負責經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21案"},{"start":471.431,"end":494.487,"text":"他大概從102年到110年每戶的停電時間還有每戶停電的次數其實都差不多大概都在每戶停電的時間都在16分鐘那每戶每年的停電次數大概都在0.2次數字事實上是差不多的所以我對於這個減少七成這個數字其實是有一些疑惑的"},{"start":495.808,"end":498.47,"text":"三十六年、一百一十年及一百一十年當中有三次的大停電"},{"start":513.542,"end":514.083,"text":"凍結案 凍結案 凍結案 凍結案 凍結案 凍結案 凍結案"},{"start":541.624,"end":553.835,"text":"指導及指示,希望臺電在面臨接下來的停電相關問題時,等危機處理的時候能夠更有誠意,而不是不斷地用去美化數字的方式要來解決這個問題,我們覺得它是有"},{"start":556.537,"end":583.356,"text":"不太精確的部分那如果說有要補充說明的時候再來本辦公室做說明對於這些數字怎麼來我看都是年報上面的數字但我們覺得是有問題我們停電的次數我們台灣是用停電超過一分鐘如果超過一分鐘我們就會算一次那有的國家是會用超過五分鐘算一次所以每個國家不一樣但是我們是用嚴格的一分鐘超過一分鐘就會算一次"},{"start":584.116,"end":585.318,"text":"負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責"}]}},{"id":"151650","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151650","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb38f8af9da5580c4415a1f541440a910baeadb1108e4b844328a94a20e7e7dac435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:07:52 - 11:16:36","影片長度":"00:08:44","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案4案。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":524,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:16:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:07:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":600,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時8分）麻煩請主委，謝謝。"],["主席：好，有請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：葉委員好。"],["葉委員元之：主委好。因為我們核安會其實跟一般民眾的健康非常有關，我有注意到你們在2018、2019年，那時候還滿積極去查一些商品有沒有輻射超標的問題，而且都有發新聞稿，像2019年當時去稽查25件東西，就有18件產品是有輻射超標的；可是2019年之後，包括2020年、2021年、2022年，我們看到好像被查到的輻射超標商品就少很多，我不曉得是你們最近沒有配合消保處去稽查，還是說我得到的數據是不精準的數據，所以想就這部分跟您請教一下，但是我也不想要讓大家產生恐慌，我現在是要針對標榜有負離子的商品，請主委可不可以稍微用1分鐘的時間跟大家講一下，負離子的東西是由哪些方式組成的？有哪些方式可以產生負離子？"],["陳主任委員東陽：它有一些是天然的。"],["葉委員元之：天然的？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對，有一些是刻意添加、人工的。"],["葉委員元之：刻意添加？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。當然有一些是噱頭，就是商業的行銷。"],["葉委員元之：有一些是摩擦產生的、有一些是放電的。現在比較有可能會造成輻射超標的負離子產品，它是用什麼方式產生的負離子？"],["陳主任委員東陽：主要是刻意。"],["葉委員元之：刻意什麼？"],["陳主任委員東陽：就是intentional，刻意的去添加……"],["葉委員元之：如果它是添加的、磨成粉的，然後混在商品上，就比較容易造成輻射超標，之前有床墊被你們稽查到，就是因為這樣產生的，對不對？請教一下，為什麼到了2020年、2021年、2022年，我這邊手上的資料，2020年只有稽查到3件輻射超標的商品，2021年只有2件，2022年只有1件，請問一下你們每一年總共稽查幾件商品？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我請張組長來回答，因為輻射……"],["葉委員元之：你不曉得？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。"],["張組長淑君：報告委員，一開始2018年的時候引進了韓國的這種不當添加，所以我們那時候也有重視源頭，就是這種不當的粉的扣查……"],["葉委員元之：好啦！不用從盤古開天開始，我問你的很簡單啦，你們稽查幾件？一年稽查幾件？"],["張組長淑君：我們目前的話，跨部會跟標準檢驗局、衛福部食藥署的是40件。"],["葉委員元之：一年40件？"],["張組長淑君：對，但是……"],["葉委員元之：哪一年40件？"],["張組長淑君：一年我們……"],["葉委員元之：平均一年40件？"],["張組長淑君：對，但是實際上有一些是真正買的時候……"],["葉委員元之：怎麼那麼少？主委，怎麼那麼少？你們之前2018年、2019年那時候把這種負離子輻射超標講得超恐怖的，說有的產品輻射超標76倍，然後會造成血液跟細胞的病變，當時發這新聞稿的時候，國人開始注意到負離子這件事情，結果後來到近3年，每一年只平均稽查40件，然後抽查的件數這麼少，代表你們現在忽然覺得負離子的產品輻射超標不重要了嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我想是這樣子，如果抽到的比率降低，那麼我們次數就可以少一點。"],["葉委員元之：廢話嗎？你要不要聽看看你自己在講什麼？你說抽少一點就可以發現少一點，我們現在是希望核安會找到多一點有問題的商品出來，結果你告訴我說抽少一點就可以發現少一點，你知道你在講什麼嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：葉委員，我講的是顛倒，我說如果發現比率降低，我們就可以抽少一點。"],["葉委員元之：不管發現比率多低，你抽40件還是非常少！如果平均40件、大概40件的話，你很多天才抽1件嘛！"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個部分我想我們可以再來評估一下，看怎麼樣是個合理的量。"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！主委，其實我們在這邊是提醒你抽太少了，你居然回答我說可以抽少一點沒關係，因為你們發現比較少，而且你這個抽樣也不符合統計上的數據，你抽40樣就發現1件你怎麼知道這到底是多還少？這跟你抽的區域有關嘛！跟你抽的樣品的對象有關嘛！對不對？你如果是抽1,068件，符合統計的意義，發現逐漸下降，你講的搞不好還有道理，但你是抽40件，你就告訴我說現在越來越少，你也是學者嘛！你覺得這在統計上有意義嗎？請核安會站在大家的健康著想，好不好？因為是你告訴大家負離子的東西很嚴重嘛！"],["陳主任委員東陽：這當然是一定的。"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！好啦！那不用再辯了啦，剛剛……對啊，好像一副要吵架的樣子，我現在講的是很民生的東西，好不好？","再來，既然核安會這麼重視我們的安全，我還是想問一下有關於核電的問題，因為我有看到主委你的受訪，針對國民黨的立委提出讓核電廠延役的事情，你說這個必須要有共識，然後核安會是負責安全技術的，對不對？能源政策不是你們制定的，但我要提醒主委，實際上你的一言一行，對於社會能不能凝聚共識也是有影響力的，為什麼？因為大家認為要不要有核電廠，其實是奠基在核電廠安不安全這件事情，如果核安會可以確保核電廠是安全的，當然大家會容易產生共識。我就請教主委，因為最近、昨天有地震什麼的，最近大家都很關心地震的話題嘛！403大地震，後來又有很多次的餘震，我想請教一下，在這一波的地震當中，核電廠有沒有發生問題？"],["陳主任委員東陽：沒有，0403核電廠的核一廠、核二廠有燃料池的水溢出……"],["葉委員元之：核一、核二？核一、核二都會停機啦！那核三有問題嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：核三沒有問題。"],["葉委員元之：核三完全沒問題嘛！"],["陳主任委員東陽：因為它是在恆春，而這個震央在花蓮，在南部地區它的震度特別低，所以這個在氣象局的地震的……"],["葉委員元之：好，我請教一下，我們的核電廠當初在蓋的時候有做過耐震評估嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：當然有。"],["葉委員元之：大概可以耐震多少？幾級？"],["陳主任委員東陽：當然有，它有一定的停機標準，就是大到一定程度的時候，它就自動shut down、就自動停機。"],["葉委員元之：所以即便震央在屏東，發生那麼大的地震，其實核電廠應該還是可以撐得住嘛！"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個是有風險啦！"],["葉委員元之：又有風險？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對，我跟委員報告，比如說核一、核二有水溢出來，這一次是7.2級的地震在花蓮，但是核一、核二廠，你知道它的震度多少嗎？它是2%到3%的重力加速度，所以是相對低的，也就是說在那個區塊、在那個地點，它的震度是低的，所以它是相對地安全。"],["葉委員元之：我知道，你不要重複，我現在問你是說核電廠如果面臨到像震度這麼大的話，它可不可以撐得過去，我現在在問你這個問題。"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個是有一定的風險……"],["葉委員元之：對，好，你不好回答，沒關係啦！主委，我想請教一下，因為我現在看起來，民進黨政府對核電，感覺是有點轉彎了啦！為什麼呢？因為像有一個企業家童子賢，本來他是堅決反核的，但他現在立場也改了，開始願意接受核電了，然後童子賢之前又被徵詢要不要當行政院長，可見現在的民進黨高層是認為核電不是說不能用啦，請教一下，你最近有沒有接到什麼指示，跟你講說有關於核電的發言要傾向於逐漸要開放的方向，有沒有？"],["陳主任委員東陽：沒有。"],["葉委員元之：沒有，完全沒有？"],["陳主任委員東陽：沒有。"],["葉委員元之：因為上一次我們在質詢你的時候，你講了一句很耐人尋味的話，你說核電安不安全你不知道，有發生事情就是不安全，沒發生事情就是安全，這句話很玄啦！我也參透滿久的啦！請教一下，我剛剛問的問題你沒有回答，因為時間到了，我們還是希望核安會可以秉持著讓核電安全的角度，對不對？這是你們工作嘛！"],["陳主任委員東陽：這是一定的。"],["葉委員元之：對外的發言，我覺得也應該要秉持著自己的專業跟良心，不應該配合執政者的意識型態，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：一定，謝謝葉委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝葉元之委員，主委請回。","好，我們接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葉元之","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","范雲","張嘉郡","吳春城"],"page_start":251,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會\n列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查 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但是實際上有一些是真正買的時候怎麼那麼少 主委怎麼那麼少"},{"start":182.213,"end":208.056,"text":"你們之前2018、2019那時候把這種負離子輻射超標講得超恐怖的耶說有的產品輻射超標76倍然後會造成血液跟細胞的病變當時發這新聞稿的時候國人開始注意到負離子這件事情結果後來到近三年每一年只平均積查40件然後抽查的件數這麼的少那代表說你們現在忽然覺得負離子的產品輻射超標不重要了嗎"},{"start":210.583,"end":238.175,"text":"我想是這樣子就是說如果抽到的比率降低那麼我們這個次數就可以少一點廢話嘛你現在你聽聽看你自己在講什麼你說抽少一點就可以發現少一點我們現在是希望核安會找到多一點有問題的商品出來結果你告訴我說抽少一點就可以發現少一點業委員業委員我講的是顛倒我說如果發現比率降低我們就可以抽少一點"},{"start":239.739,"end":250.507,"text":"對,40,不管是發現比例多低啦你抽40件還是非常的少啦你40件是平均大概5天才,大概40件的話你很多天才抽一件嘛"},{"start":252.052,"end":275.224,"text":"這個部分我想我們可以再來評估一下看怎麼樣合理的量對啦所以其實我們在這邊是提醒你抽太少了那你居然回答我說可以抽少一點沒關係因為我們發現比較少而且你這個抽樣也不符合統計上的數據啊你怎麼知道你抽40樣就發現一件這到多少這跟你抽的區域有關嘛跟你抽的樣品的對象有關嘛"},{"start":276.104,"end":289.123,"text":"對不對你如果是抽1068件符合統計的意義發現逐漸的下降你講的搞不好還有道理啊你是抽40件你就告訴我說現在越來越少這在統計上你也是學者嘛你覺得這在統計上有意義嗎"},{"start":292.035,"end":315.566,"text":"請核安會站在大家的健康著想好不好因為是你告訴大家負離子的東西很嚴重嘛那這當然是一定的對嘛那不用再變了啦剛剛好像一副要吵架的樣子我今天講的是很民生東西啦好不好再來啦既然核安會這麼重視我們的安全我想問一下這個有關於我還是想問一下有關於核電的問題因為我有看到竹偉你的受訪"},{"start":316.767,"end":338.099,"text":"你針對國民黨的立委有要提出要讓核電廠演繹的事情你說這個必須要有共識然後核安會是負責安全技術的對不對那個能源政策不是你們制定但我要提醒主委實際上你的一言一行對於社會能不能凝聚共識也是有影響力為什麼因為大家認為要不要有核電廠其實是"},{"start":339.559,"end":357.612,"text":"電機在核電廠安不安全這件事情如果核安會可以確保說核電廠是安全的當然大家會容易產生共識那我就請教主委因為最近昨天地震什麼最近大家都很關心地震話題嘛403大地震後來又有很多次的餘震我想請教一下在這一波地震的這個問題當中核電廠有沒有發生問題"},{"start":361.489,"end":384.066,"text":"呃沒有合一零零四零三核電廠、核一廠、核二廠那麼有燃料池的水核一核二核一核二都會停機啦那核三有問題嗎核三沒有問題核三完全沒問題嘛因為他是在恆春那麼這個震度齁在這個花蓮那麼在南部地區他的震度特別低齁所以這個在氣象局的那個"},{"start":386.669,"end":406.947,"text":"核電廠當初在蓋的時候有做過耐震的評估嗎?大概可以耐震多少?幾級?當然有,它有一定的停機的標準就是說你到達一定程度的時候它就自動停機所以即便是正央在屏東發生那麼大的地震其實核電廠應該還是可以撐得住嗎?"},{"start":409.898,"end":434.814,"text":"這個是有一點有風險有風險對對對我跟委員報告比如說核一核二水溢出來那麼這一次是7.2級的地震在花蓮但是核一核二場你知道它的震度多少嗎它是2%到3%的重力加速度所以是相對的低的也就是說在那個區塊在那個地點它的震度是"},{"start":435.254,"end":441.338,"text":"主委 我想請教一下因為我現在看起來民進黨政府對核電感覺是有點轉彎的啦因為為什麼呢因為像有一個企業家童子賢本來他是堅決反核的但他現在立場也改了開始"},{"start":464.975,"end":486.248,"text":"願意接受核電了我想然後同時前之前又被徵詢要不要當行政院長可見現在民進黨高層是認為核電不是說不能用啦請教一下你最近有沒有接到什麼指示跟你講說有關於核電的發言要傾向於逐漸這個要開放的方向有沒有沒有沒有完全沒有沒有"},{"start":486.57,"end":512.052,"text":"那因為你上一次我們在質詢你的時候你講了一句很耐人尋味的話啦你說核電安不安全你不知道有發生事情就是不安全沒發生事情就是安全這句話很玄啦我也參透滿久的啦那請問那請教一下這個剛剛因為我剛剛問的問題你沒有回答啦你沒有回答啦那我希望說核電因為時間到了啦我們還是希望核安會可以秉持著讓核電安全的角度對不對這是你們的工作嘛"},{"start":512.572,"end":520.987,"text":"這一定的那對外的發言我覺得也應該秉持著自己的專業跟良心不應該配合執政者的意識形態好 謝謝謝謝葉委員好 謝謝葉原池委員"}]}},{"id":"151649","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151649","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb320e6845a4f63ec5fe793a383c05d564ceadb1108e4b8443278127b5ca753ccb05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"11:01:12 - 11:09:28","影片長度":"00:08:16","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案」案。二、審查本院委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查行政院函請審議「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1"},"duration":496,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:09:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:01:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":483,"blocks":[["洪委員申翰：（11時1分）請邱部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["邱部長國正：洪委員好。"],["洪委員申翰：部長好。剛剛前面有幾個委員在詢答的時候，也有提到近期我們在新聞上面看到很多軍中自傷的事件，讓人非常非常的遺憾，也有幾個委員提到關於在軍中輔導這樣的問題，我想針對幾個部分來跟部長討論。部長你知不知道，比方說我們在討論醫護比的時候，其實在醫療機構設置標準裡面就有訂定相關醫護比必須達到的標準。"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["洪委員申翰：前幾年我們也看到在大專院校裡面也出現很多自傷的事件，其實後來在學生輔導法裡面也訂定了相關的輔導人力跟學生配置的標準。我剛才聽到部長也坦承目前　軍中輔導的人力其實不足夠，我剛才如果沒聽錯的話，部長是這樣說的，你說其實也不足，現在的問題在於不足到底是多不足？我想先問部長，你知不知道現在心輔人員的編現比是多少？一個心輔官要負責多少的現員？"],["邱部長國正：現在大概是將近1比400個人左右。"],["洪委員申翰：沒錯，你看一下心輔人員目前編制大概是460，現有大概390，編現比大概85%，如果以16萬軍力粗估的話，大概一位心輔官負責400員沒有錯，可是問題來了，就像剛剛部長說你也覺得不夠，那到底多不夠？我們要達到的標準是什麼數字？目前1比400對不對？如果不夠，那是要達到什麼數字？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，我所謂的不夠是怎麼樣，專業人員當然越多越好，但話講回來就是說主任務，而且我們平常領導統御，為什麼單位有這種建置？就是層層主官他就要負這個責，這也是領導統御的一環，所以用這個來彌補，基本上我們就三道關卡可以做心輔的工作。"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我同意我們絕對不是靠心輔資源去處理所有的問題，這我完全同意……"],["邱部長國正：是，沒辦法完全靠它。"],["洪委員申翰：可是到目前為止，相比於其他的單位，我剛才說到包括像在醫療機構，包括像在校園裡面，其實大概都有一個心輔官要設多少編制的目標，現在我們確實看到大家越來越重視在軍中的這些事件，目前反而在軍隊裡面是沒有一個目標的。所以我說夠還是我說不夠，其實都沒有一個基準、沒有一個標準，現在是1比400，但我們是不是要做到1比350還是要做到1比300？還是說1比400其實是夠的？這應該要設定一個目標，而不是有多少我就上多少，我們有看到在其他機構裡面，反而是可以用這個方式去緩解一些問題的。大家現在都非常重視軍中心輔資源的部分，所以我們是不是應該仿照護病比或心輔師比，建立一個合理的心輔人員跟負責人員的配比？我們把這個目標定出來，需要多少、差多少，我們預先來做準備，而不是像現在這樣有點像是有一天過一天，或者是反正有多的我就用、沒多的我也不預做準備，可是目前就不夠啊！"],["邱部長國正：跟委員報告，我剛剛所講的概略不夠或夠，我是針對專業人員，專業人員到底要多少數據，這個我們可以來做一個課題研討，但基本上，國軍各有各的專業領域，現在要再培養一些專門心輔的人員，但他的戰鬥動作、他的戰鬥任務還是有的。"],["洪委員申翰：當然。"],["邱部長國正：基本上，我們各級的幹部就是最基本的心輔人員，但這個不能算進去，所以我們可以把一個數據列出來一個百分比……"],["洪委員申翰：部長，我們現在講的心輔人當然指的是專業的，他有這方面專業的嘛，不是我今天要用各個不同功能的，我全部硬把他算進去，我覺得這是在專業的部分。我想給你看下面一個數據，在2024年的時候，假設我們的兵員是16萬，假設我現在要維持剛剛所講的心輔人員1比400的配比的話，其實我們預計2029年的時候，我們的兵員會到26萬，將近27萬，就算要維持1比400，而且假設就是剛才說的85%的編現比的話，照理說，心輔人需要增加到650，甚至編制人員要增加到765，恐怕要比現在多出300位，其實那個數字是很高的。針對這個數字，我們接下來五年內要再增加300位，部長有沒有什麼想法？"],["邱部長國正：可以啊，要逐年進步嘛！現在兵員如果來的義務役多，從義務役當中也可以選員啊！"],["洪委員申翰：部長你現在講的沒有錯，但我現在問的是這件事情是我們要提前預備的，部長應該同意嘛，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：對。"],["洪委員申翰：就算從政戰學院裡面的心理跟社工學系來看的話，他們的系所畢業人數其實也不夠支撐這300個，對不對？所以勢必要由義務役的預官或者是心輔官來支撐，可是我們又需要他是專業的，你也不能濫竽充數，所以我們可能要做的事情是什麼？我們現在變成甚至要提前去教育部下面相關的心理或社會工作、諮商相關的系所裡面，擴大來跟他們爭取，鼓勵他們來報考預官、預士，這樣才有辦法因應接下來五年要300位的需求啊！"],["邱部長國正：跟委員報告，這些都同步要做啦！"],["洪委員申翰：對。"],["邱部長國正：我們一個期望出來，最起碼是個目標嘛！"],["洪委員申翰：今天的質詢，我知道大家現在越來越重視，而且我也覺得接下來下一個世代，對於心輔資源看重的程度，一定會比過去來得更高，在這同時，我剛剛都還只是用1比400算，我還沒有假設我們調高到1比350或1比300，我還沒有用這個角度去算，如果我們就需要300名的話，我們不預先準備是不行的。我為什麼今天一定要把這量化的數據拿出來的原因，是因為我們必須在量化的數據裡面，才可以評估我們提前的準備跟作業的工作足不足夠、我們的方向上能不能夠，這不是平常到大街上面去叫就可以叫來的，或者是去海巡現在軍中的人員就可以多找一些來，不是的！這是我們要先做準備的事情啊！","所以我剛才說第一個接下來我們應該先建立編現比的標準是什麼，應該仿照在大專校園裡面或者是醫療機構裡面，我們可以專業的評估到底需要多少人力，這是專業評估，這部分交給國防部，可是要有一個標準，我們才有目標，才不會像現在的狀況是有多少我就用多少，可是我們明明知道恐怕是不足的。我記得之前大家也曾提出質詢，其實他的人力負擔已經過重了，所以我們可不可以第一個先建立標準？這沒有問題嘛，對不對？"],["邱部長國正：沒有問題。"],["洪委員申翰：第二個，我剛才說到五年後我們至少要多300位，這個部分提前準備的話，假設不是只從政戰學院的話，從外部的校園去找到專業的系所裡面鼓勵他們來考預官、預士，這個也要相關的工作計畫去進行擴大的招募或優先的招募，這部分也可以嗎？"],["邱部長國正：也可以。"],["洪委員申翰：請在兩個月之內針對這個問題給我們一個相關的報告可以嗎？"],["邱部長國正：可以啊！"],["洪委員申翰：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪申翰委員，請國防部相關業管於兩個月內提報委員會，謝謝，部長請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是翁曉玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","林楚茵","沈伯洋","黃國昌","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳永康","陳俊宇","羅智強","林思銘","洪申翰","翁曉玲","陳冠廷","吳思瑤","林憶君","鄭天財Sra 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部長請"},{"start":17.486,"end":22.69,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":46.628,"end":51.172,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":73.888,"end":92.662,"text":"我剛才聽到部長其實也坦承說目前其實在軍中輔導的人力其實不足夠我剛才如果沒聽錯的話部長是這樣說的其實也不足但是現在的問題是那到底不足是多不足那想先問部長部長你知不知道現在新府人員的邊線比現在是多少一個新府官負責多少的縣員"},{"start":93.752,"end":115.788,"text":"大約我們要將近1比400個人左右啦沒錯齁你看一下現在新府人目前編制大概是460那現有在390編線比大概85如果以16萬的軍力出估的話大概一位新府官大概負責400元沒有錯可是問題來了就像剛剛部長說你也覺得不夠那到底多不夠"},{"start":117.419,"end":146.635,"text":"我們要達到的標準是什麼數字?目前1比400,對不對?那如果不夠,那是要達到什麼數字?部長。是,我跟委員報告,我所謂不夠怎麼樣,講說專業人員當然越多越好,但話講軍人有主任務,而且我們平常領導統一,為什麼這單位裡有這種建制,建制層層主管他就要負這個責,這也是領導統一的一環,所以這個來彌補,所以為什麼基本上我們就有三道關卡,可以做這些辛苦的工作。"},{"start":147.095,"end":174.773,"text":"我同意絕對我們不是靠新府資源來去處理所有的問題我完全同意可是就目前為止相比於其他的單位我剛才說到包括像在醫療機構包括像在校園裡面其實大概都有一個我們新府官設要多少編制的一個目標現在我們確實看到大家越來越重視在軍中的這些事件裡面目前反而是在軍隊裡面是沒有的"},{"start":175.7,"end":178.062,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":187.984,"end":193.827,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":216.958,"end":236.379,"text":"預先來做準備,而不是現在有點像是有一天過一天,或者是反正有多的我就用,沒多的我也不預作準備,可是目前就不夠啊,副長。是,我跟委員報告,我是所以剛剛就講說概略不夠或夠,我是針對專業人員,專業人員到底要有多少數據,這我們可以大陸來一個課題研討。"},{"start":237.6,"end":240.061,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查行政院徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":258.027,"end":271.533,"text":"不懂,我們現在在講的欣甫仁丹指的是專業的嘛,他有這個方面專業的嘛,不是我今天要用各個不同的功能的我全部硬把它算進去,我覺得是在專業的部分,下面不懂我想給你看下面一個數據喔,再往下,再往下,再往下,好。"},{"start":273.914,"end":286.087,"text":"不想我們現在2024年的時候我們兵員假設我們16萬假設我現在就要維持這個該幸福人員1比4400的這配比的話其實我們預計2029年的時候我們的兵員會到26萬哦將近27萬哦如果我就算要維持1比400"},{"start":294.025,"end":311.268,"text":"照理來說我的新府人增加的數字而且我也假設就是剛才說的85%的邊線比的話我新府人會需要增加到650甚至編制人員要增加到765恐怕是比現在要多出300位其實這個數字是很高的"},{"start":312.216,"end":330.546,"text":"那部長,針對這個數字,我們接下來5年內要再增加300位喔,部長有沒有什麼想法?可以啊,要逐年進步嘛,現在兵員如果來得一無一多,從一無一當中也可以做一個選員啦。部長,你現在講的沒有錯,但是我現在就是說,這個事情是我們要提前預備的,部長應該同意嘛,對不對?"},{"start":332.287,"end":351.583,"text":"因為我們就算從我們的政戰學院裡面的心理跟社工學系來看的話他們的這個系所畢業人數其實也不夠支撐這300個啊對不對所以我們勢必恐怕是要從沒錯要從義務域的域官或者是新府官裡面來去支撐可是我們又需要"},{"start":352.828,"end":375.84,"text":"是專業的,你也不能濫於充數。」所以我們現在可能要做的事情是什麼?我們現在變成是不是甚至要提前預備去到我們教育部下面有相關的心理或社會工作諮商相關的系所裡面,擴大來跟他們爭取,鼓勵他們來報考、預官、預試,你才有辦法因應你接下來5年要300位的這個需求啊?"},{"start":376.963,"end":402.712,"text":"所以我今天這個質詢我知道大家現在越來越重視而且我也覺得接下來下一個世代對於新府資源的看重的程度一定會比過去來的更高在這個同時我剛才還都只是用1比400算喔我還沒有算說假設我們要不要調高到1比350或1比300我還沒有用這個角度去算喔我們就需要300名的話"},{"start":404.713,"end":427.758,"text":"我們不預先準備是不行的我為什麼今天一定要把這量化的數據拿出來的原因是因為我們必須在量化的數據裡面才可以評估我們提前的準備跟作業的工作足不足夠我們的方向上能不能夠這不是我平常到大街上面去叫就可以叫來的或者是我自己去海巡我現在軍中的人員就可以多找一些來不是這是我們要先做準備的事情啊好不好部長所以我剛才說"},{"start":428.638,"end":450.036,"text":"第一,我們應該先建立接下來我們邊線比的標準是什麼?應該仿照我們在大專校園裡面或者是醫療機構裡面我們可以專業的評估到底需要多少人力這個是專業評估這部分交給國防部可是要有一個標準我們才有目標才不會現在的狀況是有多少我就用多少"},{"start":450.356,"end":459.258,"text":"可是我們明明知道恐怕是不足的。」就像之前我記得聽到地域委員包括大家其實也質詢其實他的人力負擔其實已經過重了"},{"start":460.529,"end":484.231,"text":"所以我們可不可以先第一個部長建立標準沒有問題嗎?對不對?第二個,剛才說到5年後我們要多300至少300位啊那這部分提前準備的話假設不是只是從政戰學院的話從外部的校園裡面要去找到專業的系所裡面去找到他們考預冠預試這也要相關的工作計畫來去進行擴大的招募或優先的招募這部分部長有可以嗎?"},{"start":484.791,"end":487.033,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬事件處理法草案案。"}]}},{"id":"151648","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151648","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3b263eb604d52bdda7e796690f3f0abb2eadb1108e4b84432dcf26fffb41f74a55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"10:59:26 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我們有法律系同學的群組沒有人相信法官一個月刑案只有60件中位數是多少平均數是60 中位數是多少因為這個是連同連同這個一般的檢疫案件是 所以平均下來我覺得還是一樣手上一兩百件一個月案件的是大有人在"},{"start":235.347,"end":261.569,"text":"第2個他我就常跟很多新進要念法律系的人說如果叫你一天寫一篇作文你寫得出來嗎很難寫一天要寫三篇作文一個月要解一百件案件三篇作文每一個字都不能錯每一個事實都不能錯連證人的證詞都要引用得正正道道地地絕對不能出錯這種作文誰寫得出來判決書就是一篇很好的作文"},{"start":262.33,"end":283.432,"text":"所以秘書長我今天有幾個建議啦這是我們法律系同學、法官、律師一起在討論的幾個做法你沒有辦法加人你只能減量怎麼減量有幾個案子我們認為說應該可以減量第一個他們認為很多法人登記的案子一定要到法院嘛可以修法的趕快修"},{"start":284.346,"end":308.259,"text":"二、票據公式催告這都是一個程序問題這個程序問題能不能在行政單位或其他的機關就能夠減量不用事事都到法院去這也是目前為止我認為可以盡量減少法官或在法院裡面做其他專責單位去處理就好不要讓法官去做這種程序性的東西第三、收養"},{"start":309.159,"end":334.731,"text":"收養很多都已經寫好收養的契約但是他必須要再經過法院認可他也會影響法院整個在家事法庭他調查跟了解的狀況他的其實某個程度當事人都已經同意了可是我們還要經過一個程序第3個第4個是現在濫訴罰環的執行我看到你們的案子說你們有罰了一些不肖的當事人不肖的律師然後只罰了200多件"},{"start":336.232,"end":354.502,"text":"跟剛剛加的80萬件還是差很遠啊第四個專家參審的制度我們希望說有一些像現在精神衛生法已經有讓專家進來那我們希望說有一些工程、金融、智慧財產的案件某個層次讓專家來參審減輕法官的壓力"},{"start":358.052,"end":377.94,"text":"那第6個是我認為最重要的我們最高法院最會做的就是用發回跟審從來不依照相關的訴訟法自為判決這個自為判決有些最高法院我相信他們已經有定見了可是我們現在用發回作為唯一的方法幾乎自為判決的比例非常少"},{"start":378.78,"end":405.671,"text":"最後一個是債務清理債務清理現在是法院最大宗那我今天再口頭補充一個就是現在因為保險也被列為要保人的資產所以整個強制執行法光保險去查保險、封保險、解約保險就成為現在執行法院最大的噩夢所以秘書長如果你沒辦法加人這些減量我希望"},{"start":406.572,"end":408.642,"text":"司法院從今天開始檢討剛剛講的這幾項,你做得到嗎?"},{"start":417.483,"end":436.752,"text":"剛剛委員有講到法人登記、票據、公私催告、收養、認可這些如果可以不要在法院做,可以...你需要我們就幫你修法修掉啊那這個是一個很好的方向另外要跟委員報告的是說這幾項我們目前法人登記是由登記處的行政同仁在處理"},{"start":437.412,"end":442.313,"text":"法院人力來做訴訟有必要有法院有實質認定的部分讓法院來做其他有行政單位可以行政單位做"},{"start":460.738,"end":480.566,"text":"在清一波地方的消災中心因為我們在各個執行處的成立的消災中心目前是士林跟台中各個法院的編制不同執行處的人力配置跟硬體設備不一樣所以要全部都移到"},{"start":482.146,"end":485.367,"text":"是,那專家參審的部分我們目前有專家諮詢的制度可以運用,以上報告"},{"start":506.892,"end":512.584,"text":"好的謝謝拜託秘書長這幾項東西請你一個月給我一個簡單的回應好嗎是是謝謝好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151647","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151647","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3750b4d632d34512a5a1f541440a910baeadb1108e4b84432e303a7df215740635ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:58:03 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11:07:42","影片長度":"00:09:39","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案4案。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":579,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:07:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:58:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":561,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時58分）謝謝主席，我們有請主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：張委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：主委早安。上次我在3月底的時候有問關於含氚廢水的事情，主要是因為我們針對於不同的東西有取樣頻率的規範，有些是每一季或是有些是半年取樣，但是我看到現在我的這個表裡面有一些取樣時間好像都已經超過半年以上了，甚至有一年沒有更新，請問原因是什麼？"],["陳主任委員東陽：水試所的船今年上半年有一些故障，另外有些時候是海象的問題、天氣氣候的問題。我跟委員說明，其實我們最近做了一些很大的努力，我去拜訪國科會主委，它下面的法人海洋中心有海洋船──勵進號，因為勵進號是做學校老師、科研人員的科學檢測，而輻射偵測中心會有人陪同去取海水，所以會不定期的增加頻次跟點位，所以除了原來的107點以外，還會根據他們不同的船行程再去補足一些點。"],["張委員雅琳：所以大概是什麼時候會開始啟動這樣子……"],["陳主任委員東陽：我想很快，6月就會開始。"],["張委員雅琳：下次等我6月之後再去看到的時候，這些應該都會更新了，對嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是。"],["張委員雅琳：好。接下來問第二個問題，我上次也是一樣關心的，就是有關於經費的部分，今天有一個核安會的解凍預算報告，其實有一筆1,000萬原子能管理發展的經費要解凍，這裡面也包含到要給國原院的經費，在核安會113年的總預算裡面有29.46億，撥給國原院的經費是20.7億，其中補助隨同移轉之繼續任用公務人員等人事費用是10.94億。據我所知，接下來國原院不會再進用公務員，現在的公務人力會遇缺不補，日後都會視需求改用院聘人力，所以核安會的人事費補助就僅限於這些公務人力，之後改為院聘人員之後，是不是所有院聘人員的人事費都是由國原院自籌，也就是核安會過去補助給國原院的人事費用會逐年遞減，到最後一位公務人員退休就會歸零了嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個是這樣子的，國原院現在是行政法人，跟財團法人是有相似的性質，但是原來國原院是核研所，他們全部都是公務人員，所以目前除了公務人員有相當大的量，大概應該是7比3，跟院聘人員……"],["張委員雅琳：對。所以主委，這一題我只是想要確認一下，剛剛講了，因為是行政法人，所以它要開始自籌，過去我們補助的這些人事費用，隨著公務人員退場之後，應該就不會再去補助了，是嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，但是我跟委員報告，部會跟法人通常的關係會藉由計畫，人員的薪水有一些是在計畫裡面付的，所以它可以編多少人員……"],["張委員雅琳：這就是計畫人力的部分而已，對不對？可是公務人……"],["陳主任委員東陽：對、對，而且計畫人力有不同的range、不同的職稱，他可以很高的，也可以是一般平常的計畫人力。"],["張委員雅琳：對，瞭解，我懂。這一題我主要是想要接續來問，因為我們必須要自籌了，可是我也看到國原院自籌經費卻是逐年在下降的，105年的時候有10.5億；到112年只剩下7.4億，接下來國原院可能要自籌10億喔！它才有辦法去支付現在的人事支出，所以我想要瞭解自籌款到底是為什麼下降了？如果它真的持續下降，核安會真的有辦法逐年減少這些人事的補助嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我先回答一下，這個逐年下降是有人離開、離職，大部分是退休，所以它是漸進式的，不會是一下子全部變沒有，委員聽得懂我的意思嗎？所以這個人事費會逐年遞減。"],["張委員雅琳：對，我知道。但是我們現在講的是自籌部分，因為我們需要有自籌能力，接下來你可能就不會再補助它這些公務人力了，所以現在自籌能力是逐年下降的，這個原因是什麼？"],["高院長梓木：報告委員，因為我們原來從核電相關的部分得到比較多的計畫，就是相比於105年開始……"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["高院長梓木：因為電廠也逐漸停止運轉，核一、核二停止運轉，我們一些相關的委託計畫也跟著萎縮。"],["張委員雅琳：對，就變少了。"],["高院長梓木：對、對，萎縮了大概兩成到三成，兩成多，這幾年都維持大概7.4億。"],["張委員雅琳：這樣就會有一個問題，接下來要面對……"],["高院長梓木：接下來我們還是會努力，就是想辦法再去找其他的，像新能源或者其他輻射應用的、核醫藥物應用的經費，提高核醫藥物供應的量，來爭取自籌經費的營運。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解，我有一個建議，院長也可以聽聽看，因為你們畢竟還是一個研究單位，你們需要接各部會的一些計畫，像剛剛您說的這樣子，但我也知道，好像在爭取案子的時候會遇到一些阻礙，譬如說，可能別人會覺得你們是不是夠專業、你們的專業跟其他的領域是否有相關，我覺得大家對國原院其實還不夠熟悉，我不太知道你們平常研究出什麼樣子的成果，所以我就去看了一下你們現在的著作數量，你們的數量其實是持續在下降，70%有關的研究都是院內報告，可是我查了你們的網站，也沒有看到院內報告的查詢系統。你們現在大概有500位的研究人力，可是每年發表的部分，大概就是國內外的期刊、會議論文、海報等等的數量，卻還是逐年下降的，你可以看到我們所做的這張表，所以第一個，發表量減少，為什麼都是院內報告？院內報告是可以公開給大家來瞭解國原院的嗎？或者是，為什麼這5年，你們對於國際論文的發表還是在持續減少的？甚至是在院內的發表系統，扣除掉機密文件之後，是不是都可以讓大家公開參閱？我覺得這樣才可以讓大家更瞭解國原院，對你們在自籌經費才會有幫助，是不是可以請院長來回復一下？"],["高院長梓木：報告委員，我們的院內報告有些是跟一些單位，像國內最大的半導體公司委託我們做一些實驗，這個都是機敏性、要簽保密協定的，台電或者是……"],["張委員雅琳：但這是占很大的數量嗎？因為這個……"],["高院長梓木：占一部分的數量。"],["張委員雅琳：一部分，大概是占……"],["高院長梓木：部分的院內報告，大概有7成左右是一般的報告，但是放在網路上部分，院內的報告是希望能夠透過整合的方式再公布在外面，不然這7、8百件要來搜尋也滿困難的，但是……"],["張委員雅琳：好，我瞭解了。因為聽起來院內還要再努力，看怎樣把它公開嘛，你們是不是可以鼓勵大家多投國際的一些期刊進行院外的發表，因為回到重點，你們就是要自籌，那自籌一定要有一定的研究實力，讓大家可信，所以這部分你們是不是可以有一些機制來鼓勵大家呢？"],["高院長梓木：相對於10年前核研所最興盛的時候，在福島事件之前，員工總共有1,500位，包括支援的人力，但是現在剩不到1,000位，相對這個數量也逐年在減少，但是我們會要求比較高品質，我們希望投稿的時候要重視品質，impact factor比較高的我們會鼓勵，感覺上應該是要投影響力最大的期刊，我們再來鼓勵，或者是專利，如果一昧的投，卻沒有應用價值，我們現在也把這個……"],["張委員雅琳：我想你們也很難一昧的投，因為其實國外期刊也不是那麼的好投，對不對？"],["高院長梓木：是。"],["張委員雅琳：你們還是要鼓勵大家儘量去投啦！畢竟你們還是要提供公信力，不然你們就是會遇到自籌款的問題，因為我還是非常擔心，就像我一直以來都會說，其實我非常關注研究人員可不可以得到一個很好的薪資，因為這些東西就是跟這個環環相扣，所以這部分一定要來持續地努力；而院內的報告要怎麼樣公開，我們會後會持續來追蹤，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝委員。"],["主席：我們接下來請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葉元之","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","范雲","張嘉郡","吳春城"],"page_start":251,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會\n列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查 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但是我跟委員報告就是部會跟法人通常的關係會藉由計劃那麼人員的薪水有一些是在計劃裡面付的所以它可以編多少人力這就是計劃人力的部分而已嘛 對不對而且計劃人力它有不同的rank不同的職稱它可以很高的"},{"start":251.584,"end":265.15,"text":"對它也可以是一般平常計劃的利潤那其實這一題我主要是想要接續的來問就是說因為我們必須要自籌了可是我也看到說我們國研院自籌經費卻是逐年在下降的105年的時候還有10.5億那到112年只剩下7.4億"},{"start":270.152,"end":287.772,"text":"所以就變成說接下來國研院可能要自籌10億喔他才有辦法去支付他現在的一個人事支出所以我想要了解我們自籌款到底是為什麼下降了那我們如果他真的持續下降那核安會真的有辦法逐年減少這些人事的補助嗎"},{"start":290.481,"end":309.602,"text":"那個我先打一下這個逐年下降是有人離開離職大部分是退休所以他是漸進式的他不會是一下子全部變沒有委員聽得懂我意思嗎所以這個人事費他會逐年的遞減"},{"start":311.227,"end":338.586,"text":"對我知道但是我們現在講的是自籌的部分嘛因為我們需要有自籌能力啊因為現在夏林可能就不會再補助他這些公務人力了嘛所以就是你現在自籌能力是逐年下降的啊那這個原因是什麼報告委員那個因為我們原來從核能就核電相關的計畫得到比較多的計畫就是比對於105年開始那因為電廠也逐漸這個停掉嘛停止運轉所以我們"},{"start":340.247,"end":359.08,"text":"的一些相關的委託計畫也跟著萎縮所以萎縮了大概兩成到三成所以到目前這幾年都維持大概7億那這樣就會有一個問題接下來我們還是會努力就是想辦法再去找其他像新能源或者其他"},{"start":359.42,"end":360.461,"text":"核能安全委員會主管預算"},{"start":389.801,"end":407.342,"text":"對國研院其實還不夠熟悉我不太知道你們平常研究出什麼樣子的成果所以我就去看了一下我們現在的著作數量我們的數量其實是持續在下降70%的關於研究都是院內報告可是我查了你們的網站也沒有看到院內報告的查詢系統"},{"start":409.281,"end":424.002,"text":"那我們現在呢大概是有500位的一個研究人力可是每年發表的大概就是國內外的期刊、會議論文、海報等等的數量卻還是逐年下降的你可以看到這張我們做這個表"},{"start":425.063,"end":454.384,"text":"所以就是說第一個發表量減少那為什麼都是院內報告院內報告是可以公開給大家來瞭解和國研院的嗎那或者是說為什麼這五年呢我們對於這些國際的論文也還是在持續減少的那甚至是說我們的國內院內的發表系統扣除掉機密文件之後是不是都可以讓大家來去公開參閱這樣子我覺得才可以讓大家更瞭解國研院啦那這樣子對我們在自籌經費才會有幫助那是不是可以請院長來回覆一下"},{"start":455.365,"end":468.26,"text":"報告委員,我們的院內報告有些是跟一些單位像國內最大的半導體公司委託我們做一些實驗那這個都需要機敏性要簽保密協定的"},{"start":469.793,"end":494.737,"text":"但是這樣子是佔很大的數量嗎?佔一部分的數量一部分大概是在部分的院內報告如果說大概有七成左右是一般的報告但是因為放在網路上因為院內的報告就是我們希望這個院內的報告希望能夠透過再整合的方式再公佈在外面不然這七八百件"},{"start":495.607,"end":518.777,"text":"要來搜尋也蠻困難的但是我了解了那我們是不是因為聽起來就是院內我們還要再努力看怎樣把它公開嘛那我們是不是可以鼓勵大家多投國際的一些期刊做院外的發表因為回到重點嘛我們就是要自籌嘛那自籌一定要有一定的一個研究實力讓大家可以可信嘛所以這部分我們是不是可以有一些機制來鼓勵大家呢報告委員"},{"start":519.757,"end":538.072,"text":"相對於10年前我們核營所最興盛的時候福島事件之前有1500位總共員工包括資源的人力但是現在剩不到1000位所以相對這個數量也逐年在減少但是我們會要求比較高品質我們希望投稿的時候要中這個品質"},{"start":539.052,"end":556.499,"text":"因配合的比較高的我們會鼓勵我們感覺上是應該要影響力最大的這個期刊我們再來鼓勵或者專利因為專利如果一昧的投那這沒有應用價值我們現在也把我想也很難一昧的投啦因為其實國外期刊也不是那麼好投嘛對不對"},{"start":557.339,"end":575.594,"text":"所以應該是我們還是要鼓勵大家盡量去啦畢竟我們還是要提供這個公信力嘛不然我們就是會遇到這個自籌款部的問題因為我還是非常擔心就像我一直以來都會說其實我非常關注我們研究人員可不可以得到一個很好的薪資因為這些東西就是跟這個環環相扣所以這部分一定要來持續的努力那院內的報告要怎麼樣公開這我們會持續來追蹤 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151646","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151646","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb31f8e95cbe5014678a8d86c0863c2f2caeadb1108e4b84432e1707ee27fc0a2835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"10:50:20 - 11:01:37","影片長度":"00:11:17","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案。\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員黃建賓等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-9"},"duration":677,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:01:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:50:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":520,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（10時50分）謝謝主席。有請王部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好！"],["邱委員志偉：部長，台電所有同仁，特別是第一線，碰到天災或碰到任何緊急事故，都是冒著生命危險沒日沒夜地搶救，他們的辛勞，我非常瞭解。因為我的選區所在地就是沿海地區，颱風來，停電的機率非常大，又有電廠，所以很多同仁沒日沒夜為了國家的電力穩定在付出，立法院有些不理性的或者知識程度不足的立法委員所發的言真的令人覺得非常的痛心！不僅打擊基層公務人員的士氣，也製造了很多假象，傳遞不實的訊息，局部停電，就說是缺電。國會議員不要成為社會的亂源，國會議員應該成為支持國家建設的穩定力量、安定民心的力量！王耀庭總經理，我跟他相識多年，從基層做起，腳踏實地，事必躬親，專業度夠，而且又有服務熱誠，連他那麼盡心盡力為國家、為穩定供電在犧牲奉獻的公務人員，都還要受到這些屈辱，我覺得這些亂講話、知識水平不足的國會議員要深切反省，人在做，神明在看，你會遭到天譴！","部長，在520之後，你下一步會去哪裡？"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員支持我們的同仁……"],["邱委員志偉：是不是經濟相關的？"],["王部長美花：我520之後有自己的事情。"],["邱委員志偉：部長，您在任內表現非常傑出，當然不可能100分，我覺得最起碼有80分，最起碼為國家人民服務，這是不管政務官或者事務官該有的責任，遇到事情，要去瞭解問題、解決問題，所以不管是行政或立法部門，我們心中是人民、國家，讓國家更好，讓人民更幸福。沒有一個公務人員會懈怠，沒有一個國會議員應該懈怠，沒有一個國會議員要昧著良心說話，賢者做實事，愚者博聲量，可惜的是立法院愚者太多，賢者太少，才會變成社會亂象，國會是社會亂象，國會是國家很多亂象的製造者，就是愚者太多，愚者是博聲量。本席應該不是愚者。","經濟部有運用疫後特別預算在各縣市設立輔導團，高雄市的部分，原是臨登，後來取得特登的比例是百分之百，但是納管未登工廠取得特登的比例非常低，所以總計加起來還不到三成，關於這部分，這個輔導團預算用完之後，你還有沒有相關的經費來協助輔導團、來給輔導團？因為業者需要持續的輔導，這個要重視，因為還有百分之七十五還沒有取得特登，這個要怎麼處理？"],["王部長美花：對，現在要取得特登，因為中間他還要提出工廠改善計畫，然後經過審查確實有改善之後，他才會取得特登，目前都在地方政府審查當中。這個疫後預算是3年的預算，我們覺得用這個預算來支持，讓這些企業合法化……"],["邱委員志偉：未來還有沒有預算？"],["王部長美花：如果後續用……"],["邱委員志偉：可不可以跟中央再爭取持續？"],["王部長美花：我們後續應該要再來爭取，這個非常需要。"],["邱委員志偉：好，應該要持續，你只靠地方的輔導金不夠，一定要有中央的相關經費來成立輔導團。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：那工廠的倉儲要怎麼管制？"],["王部長美花：倉儲如果不是屬於製造業的部分，它確實不在工輔法的管轄範圍之內。"],["邱委員志偉：倉儲要怎麼管制？"],["王部長美花：倉儲等於是用一般的，就是看它屬於什麼樣的類型去做管制而已，沒有特別像工輔法這樣的一個管制，但是，比如說到倉儲，大家最關心的是它的安全，特別是消防安全……"],["邱委員志偉：對，就是安全性嘛。"],["王部長美花：對。那消防的安全部分……"],["邱委員志偉：因為會發生大火的往往是倉儲業，所以這個部分在工廠管理法，你要怎麼去做一些規範？"],["王部長美花：它如果不是屬於製造業的話，沒有在我們工輔法的範圍內，但是它仍然應該要按照消防法的規範來做相關的申報、危險物品的申報。"],["邱委員志偉：不要讓倉儲成為消防或是工業區安全的一個引爆點，這點是工業局要負責還是地方政府要負責？"],["王部長美花：倉儲是地方政府跟消防單位負責。"],["邱委員志偉：好。關於海淡廠，有請水利署署長，海淡廠這部分我有跟你請教過，國外有一些新技術，我希望你去瞭解一下，怎麼樣讓新技術引進，然後透過引進新技術的效益，讓海淡廠的效果能夠提高。"],["賴署長建信：是，謝謝委員提供這個訊息。事實上我們每年會辦國際水週，包括你所提供的這個技術，還有甚至包括澳洲也有類似的技術，是浮動式的。"],["邱委員志偉：我希望能夠引進新的技術來降低成本，提高淡水的生產量，因為缺水的問題會變成常態性，所以如果以後提高成本，你現在每成立建置一個海淡廠大概要50億吧？"],["賴署長建信：這要看規模……"],["邱委員志偉：如果以新竹跟臺南為例，大概要花多少錢？"],["賴署長建信：有的是七十幾億，有的是九十幾億，初建的成本。"],["邱委員志偉：那高雄的海淡廠呢？"],["賴署長建信：高雄的海淡廠目前在規劃，因為它主要是涉及到取水跟排水的管徑，這個會影響。"],["邱委員志偉：因為現在有的臨時海淡廠是我爭取的嘛。"],["賴署長建信：對。"],["邱委員志偉：你未來要規劃永久海淡廠，也是在你們原來那個地方嘛？"],["賴署長建信：對。"],["邱委員志偉：因為要供應北高雄還有南臺南，這個部分不只可以作為民生用水，也可以作為工業用水，因為那個水是可以喝的嘛。"],["賴署長建信：是。"],["邱委員志偉：我覺得要穩定的推動高雄的海淡廠，北高雄海淡廠的建置，這個部分，部長……"],["賴署長建信：這個我們是積極在辦理，我們希望說很快的時間可以進入到環評的程序。"],["邱委員志偉：這個不會中斷喔？"],["賴署長建信：不會。"],["邱委員志偉：另外，最後一個問題請教，有關這個反傾銷，中國利用一些政策工具，比方運用反傾銷稅，比方說商務部對中鋼有些反傾銷的作為，對臺灣業者經營市場的影響怎麼樣，有沒有做相關的評估？"],["王部長美花：相關的個案，它如果是用國際的反傾銷機制，我們都會支持廠商去應訴，也會提供相關的律師費用的補助，一定要積極地來爭取相關業者的權益。"],["邱委員志偉：那我們有沒有報復性的措施？"],["王部長美花：如果是按照WTO的反傾銷機制的話，不能用報復……"],["邱委員志偉：它是羅織罪名，還是真的有這種事實？"],["王部長美花：如果以我們看之前，中國剛剛針對PC（polycarbonate聚碳酸酯）課徵反傾銷稅的那個個案，事實上會進口到中國的包括韓國、臺灣跟泰國，那臺灣只是占進口的百分之二十幾……"],["邱委員志偉：所以聚碳酸酯這個部分，臺灣之外也有其他的進口國？"],["王部長美花：有。"],["邱委員志偉：它只拿臺灣開刀，對不對？"],["王部長美花：確實只有……"],["邱委員志偉：而且我們的進口比率還算低的？"],["王部長美花：就三個國家差不多。"],["邱委員志偉：所以它用它的政策工具，用反傾銷這個罪名，羅織罪名來傷害臺灣的產業，對不對？昧於事實嘛。"],["王部長美花：我們就個案看起來是三個國家的進口占比差不多的話，單獨對臺灣是比較怪。"],["邱委員志偉：那以反傾銷稅的話，對臺灣的產業就會造成影響，那我們要不要反制？如果你認為不合理，如果他們的指控，針對聚碳酸酯的反傾銷的指控是不符合事實的，那我們要不要實行一些報復作為？"],["王部長美花：兩件事，針對這個不符合，我們如果覺得不合理，確實第一個要應訴，第二個，判了之後，我們是不是應該要去申訴，這是一回事情，這也是國際的規則，至於我們的部分，應該看這一個不合理性到什麼地步，我們有什麼因應措施，這部分如果在國際規範上，我們是另外要想的，沒有辦法馬上講說要報復的問題。"],["邱委員志偉：我希望要協助業者，這個是不公平的貿易行為，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：用反傾銷、用國家的力量來打壓臺灣的產業，我們應該要有反制。另外，有關石油化學品儲槽業，這個部分要怎麼處理？當然是有它的危險性，這部分要怎麼樣有移工的可能性？經濟部有沒有相關的思考？針對石油化學品儲槽業欠工的問題。"],["王部長美花：相關個別的行業有如果有缺工的部分，產發署這邊會蒐集相關的意見來跟勞動部做反應。"],["邱委員志偉：署長，有沒有可能進入跟勞動部做一些協商？"],["連署長錦漳：如果公會有這個需求，我們蒐集完之後會循相關管道來跟勞動部那邊……"],["邱委員志偉：你們沒有接到公會的反應嗎？"],["連署長錦漳：對，現在這個問題有在做處理。"],["邱委員志偉：對啊！公會也有跟我反應，所以你們去正式跟公會做一些溝通，看他們缺工有多嚴重。"],["連署長錦漳：好。"],["邱委員志偉：缺工真的很嚴重，他沒有辦法繼續業務的維持，你就要跟勞動部提出相關……"],["連署長錦漳：我們就請公會提案，循程序我們就送到勞動部，我們跟勞動部再來協調一下。"],["邱委員志偉：好，謝謝，部長辛苦了。"],["主席：好，謝謝邱志偉委員、謝謝部長。我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時1分）","繼續開會（11時6分）"],["主席：我們現在繼續開會，接下來我們請鄭正鈐委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-9","speakers":["邱議瑩","黃建賓","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林思銘","林岱樺","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","鄭正鈐","謝衣鳯","蔡易餘","何欣純","黃國昌","洪孟楷","黃捷","羅智強","牛煦庭","陳超明","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷","王美惠"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等 21案；二、審查：\n(一)行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(二)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員\n黃建賓等 17 人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案、(六)\n本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員蔡易\n餘等20 人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)本院\n委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及\n第三十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.840343750000001,"end":7.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.012843750000002,"end":8.907218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.075968750000001,"end":9.700343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.585968750000003,"end":13.446593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.800968750000003,"end":14.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.20159375,"end":16.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.05284375,"end":24.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.567218750000002,"end":26.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.89596875,"end":35.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.666593750000004,"end":39.079718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.43409375,"end":40.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.91909375,"end":42.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.977843750000005,"end":43.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.564093750000005,"end":46.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.369718750000004,"end":49.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.930343750000006,"end":50.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.516593750000006,"end":54.09846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.55409375,"end":56.072843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.84909375,"end":58.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.39721875,"end":63.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.97034375000001,"end":66.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.26096875,"end":68.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.28596875000001,"end":70.33221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":71.47971875,"end":73.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.80409375,"end":75.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.90096875,"end":77.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":78.88784375,"end":82.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.54534375,"end":84.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":86.43096875,"end":87.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.94971875,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.58221875000001,"end":91.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.40471875,"end":93.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.67034375,"end":94.61534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.71221875,"end":96.65721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.55159375000001,"end":98.58096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.94784375,"end":100.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.38221875,"end":109.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.25409375000001,"end":111.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.23284375,"end":113.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.26221875,"end":114.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.11846875,"end":116.09721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.51909375000001,"end":117.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":117.48096875,"end":118.22346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.69596875,"end":119.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.39596875000001,"end":121.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":122.72909375,"end":123.87659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.60221875,"end":125.54721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.93909375,"end":128.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":128.95596875,"end":129.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.47909375,"end":132.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":130.69409375,"end":132.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.92159375,"end":133.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.98909375,"end":133.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.81596875,"end":133.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.05221875,"end":136.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.46096875,"end":138.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.64659375000002,"end":141.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":142.21971875,"end":145.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":145.62846875,"end":147.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.73784375,"end":153.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.62721875,"end":155.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.93471875,"end":158.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.34784375,"end":160.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.90034375000002,"end":161.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.41909375,"end":164.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.96721875,"end":166.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.17784375000002,"end":168.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.71346875,"end":169.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.43471875,"end":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案 。您是在任內表現非常傑出,當然不可能100分,最起碼有80分。為國家人民服務,這是不管政務官或事務官該有的責任。遇到事情要了解問題去解決問題。"},{"start":156.997,"end":186.181,"text":"所以不管是行政或立法部門我們心中是人民、國家讓國家更好、讓人民更幸福沒有一個公務人員會再懈怠沒有一個國會議員應該懈怠沒有一個國會議員要昧著良心說話這個啊閒者做時事愚者薄聲亮可惜的是啊立法院愚者太多"},{"start":188.47,"end":204.567,"text":"新者太少,他變成社會亂象,國會是社會亂象,國會是國家很多亂象的製造者,就是愚者太多,愚者是博生量。」我本心應該不是愚者。"},{"start":210.906,"end":228.213,"text":"經濟部有運用役後特別預算在各縣市有設立輔導攤高雄市取得特徵原是零燈取得特徵百分之百納管衛燈工廠取得特徵比率非常低總計加起來還不到三成"},{"start":229.293,"end":236.718,"text":"這個部分你這個輔導團之後預算用完之後你還有沒有相關經費來協助輔導團來給輔導團因為業者需要持續的輔導現在的東西因為你還有75%還沒有取得這個取得特登"},{"start":245.97,"end":247.951,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":269.122,"end":270.683,"text":"管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":296.57,"end":297.551,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":320.752,"end":335.411,"text":"所以這個部分在工廠管理法裡面要怎麼去做一些規範?他如果不是屬於製造業的話沒有在我們工福法裡面的部分但是他仍然應該要按照消防法部分來做相關的申報危險物品的申報"},{"start":337.612,"end":363.733,"text":"不要讓這個倉儲成為一個消防或者是這個工業區治安的一些安全的一個引爆點。是這樣是工業局要負責還是還是地方政府要負責?倉儲要地方政府跟這個消防的單位負責。海淡廠那個水利署署長"},{"start":365.149,"end":378.632,"text":"國外有些新技術,我希望你去了解一下,怎麼樣讓這個新技術引進,讓這個新技術引進,然後你把透過這個效益,讓海蛋廠的效果能夠提高。」"},{"start":381.071,"end":406.152,"text":"謝謝委員提供這個訊息事實上我們每年的這個國際水州包括你所提供的這個技術還有甚至包括澳洲它也有屬於是類似的技術是浮動式的我希望能夠引進新的技術來降低成本提高它的這個淡水的生產量因為我驅水的問題會變常態性所以如果你要提高成本你現在成立建置一個這個海淡廠大概要50億吧"},{"start":407.927,"end":429.712,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案例新竹、新竹跟台南大概要花多少錢?這個有的是七十幾億,有的是九十幾億出現的成本。那高雄的海灘廠呢?高雄的海灘廠目前在規劃,因為它主要是涉及到取水跟排水的管徑,這個會影響。因為現在有臨時海灘廠是我爭取的嘛。對。那現在你未來要規劃永久海灘廠,也是在那個地方嗎?對。"},{"start":431.772,"end":457.571,"text":"公應北高雄還有南台南,這部分不只民生用水可以,當然工業用水也可以,因為那些水也在地面嘛。這個部分我覺得要穩定地推動高雄海膽廠、北高雄海膽廠的建制。這部分,這個部長﹖ 這我們是積極在辦理,我們希望說很快的時間可以進入到環評的程序。 這個不會中斷,不會。另外,最後一個問題請教。"},{"start":460.678,"end":468.744,"text":"函請銷,中國利用一些政策工具,例如函請銷稅,商務部對中鋼有些函請銷的作為,對臺灣業者經營市場的影響有沒有做相關的評估?"},{"start":483.07,"end":500.403,"text":"相關的個案他如果用國際的這個反省銷部分那我們其實都會支持廠商去運輸那也會提供相關的律師費用的補助那一定要積極爭取來做相關的我們有沒有報復性的措施如果這個是按WTO的這個反省銷機制來的時候他是國資罪名還是真的有這種事實"},{"start":511.196,"end":536.494,"text":"如果以我們看之前中國剛針對PC的這個函請銷的那個個案事實上會進口到中國的包括韓國、臺灣跟泰國那臺灣只是佔進口的百分之二十幾所以聚碳酸子這個部分對臺灣之外有其他進口國有他只拿臺灣開刀是對不對而且我們的進口比率還算低的"},{"start":537.755,"end":542.697,"text":"凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結"},{"start":566.738,"end":588.531,"text":"的反清消的指控是不符合事實的,那我們要不要實行一些報復作為?」兩件事齁,針對這個不符合,我們如果覺得他這個不合理的時候,我們確實第一個要應訴,第二個判了之後我們是不是應該要去勝訴,那這個是一回事情,這個是國際的規則。那至於我們的部分應該看這個的"},{"start":590.652,"end":596.594,"text":"二、審查：一）行政院函請審查：一）工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。adequ.二）工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":612.219,"end":613.361,"text":"負責處理負責處理負責處理負責處理"},{"start":625.168,"end":643.588,"text":"事由化學品儲槽業,開不工的問題?相關的各別的行業有如果有缺工的部分那產發署這邊會收集相關的意見那來跟勞動部做反應。署長你這個是有沒有可能這個進入這個跟勞動部做一些協商?"},{"start":644.537,"end":647.359,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查〉一、處理或審查〉二、審查〉二、審查〉二、審查〉二、審查〉二、審查〉二、審查〉二、審查〉二、審查〉二、審查〉"},{"start":674.595,"end":676.005,"text":"二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"151645","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151645","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3d1a7215283e2e255e793a383c05d564ceadb1108e4b844326974ba0f13b380455ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:52:55 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案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權"}]}},{"id":"151644","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151644","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3d8c3b2092bc402136abc9c09ba589754eadb1108e4b84432d5b1ff11865c5e7f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:48:34 - 10:54:35","影片長度":"00:06:01","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":361,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:54:35+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:48:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":555,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（10時48分）部長，請留步，謝謝。部長，我剛剛本來想請花次留下來，想要跟他討論，一個是租金補貼的政策；另外一個是社宅的政策，但我想其實租金補貼是在你任內推動的，質詢你、讓你來回應，是更有意義的。請問你認為今年還要不要繼續做中央擴大租金補貼300億的這一項補貼？"],["林部長右昌：這個當然會持續推動下去。"],["李委員柏毅：這個會推動下去，來，我們來探討及檢討一下去年這個租金補貼，現在我們全臺灣的承租戶大概有多少？"],["林部長右昌：你是說租屋嗎？"],["李委員柏毅：租屋。"],["林部長右昌：租屋大概是八十七萬多，將近九十萬。"],["李委員柏毅：那來申請的有64萬戶，通過申請核准的有45萬戶，所以代表這80萬戶裡面，有超過20萬戶沒有來申請租屋補貼，有10萬戶沒有通過我們的租屋補貼。目前對於房東免課所得稅的租金是每個月1萬5,000，它是免稅的，如果超過是要課稅的。所以其實我遇到很多陳情人，有一點我沒有辦法給他保證，就是如果他去跟我們申請租屋補貼，造成他的房東不高興，把他趕出去，不租房子給他了，我們對於房東的相關罰則還沒有出來，我也不敢去跟陳情人保證不會，請他放心去申請、去跟內政部申請，申請絕對不會被趕出去。部長，這個問題你有沒有想配套的措施，我們怎麼樣來繼續推動，怎麼樣讓所有租屋族真的都可以拿到租金補貼、真的敢來申請？"],["林部長右昌：委員，兩個部分，第一個，剛剛在講全國的租屋有87萬，現在其實這個比例已經很高了，預計我們的覆蓋率應該是再提升一點，大概80%是極致了，因為不可能是100%，現在的比例其實相對已經高，剛剛在講我們本來是1.0，現在變成2.0，所以解決了部分的問題。委員剛剛提到……"],["李委員柏毅：對，就是探討我們還沒有解決的問題，我們還可以怎麼樣精進。"],["林部長右昌：對，不過因為最麻煩的是，其實這不只單單從我們住宅部門，還包括租稅的那一部分，就是課稅的那個部分，才有辦法配套，另外還有包括稅收稽徵的部分。剛剛有提到，因為它還是涉及私權，租賃是一個民法之間的關係，所以你剛剛提到強制的那部分，的確我們也還在做一些思考。我請吳署長來做一個補充。"],["李委員柏毅：吳署長請簡短回答。"],["吳署長欣修：謝謝委員，其實這一塊的確是這幾年慢慢會一直累積的問題，我們其實也試著很多方法，也跟委員報告，我們現在的核定數到昨天已經衝破49萬戶了……"],["李委員柏毅：49萬戶了？剛剛看到你們的資料是45萬戶。"],["吳署長欣修：所以其實很快就達標了。"],["李委員柏毅：好，謝謝署長。","我們請移民署署長，謝謝。署長，有超過6萬甚至更多非法拘留的外籍移工，他們可能都在各地打工，他們可能從事很多臺灣人不願意從事的行業，他們可能有很多原因，已經超過時間，沒有回到他們的國家，這是移民署專勤隊這邊會去執行的任務，對不對？"],["鍾署長景琨：是。"],["李委員柏毅：現在大概有多少？我們的執行狀況大概怎樣？"],["鍾署長景琨：失聯移工的部分，到今年的1月份，大概累計有八萬五千多。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝。我們今天國籍法在討論黑戶寶寶，其實有一部分我想來自失聯移工，他們長期留在臺灣、長期在臺灣打工生活，他們生出來的寶寶沒有辦法報戶口，因為一報，父親可能不清楚是誰，但是母親就必須要被遣返，這是今天國籍法在討論的一個很重要的課題，當然我們基於人權，對於這個黑戶寶寶，我們希望臺灣的人權可以讓他進入國籍，可以照顧這個寶寶，這個寶寶未來也變成是一個臺灣的生產力。但是針對高階的這些人才，包含體育人才，我們也希望可以放寬，讓他也可以納進我們的國籍之外，我們也希望可以採取有一定方式的管制，他不要代表國家隊多久之後，可能又恢復不是臺灣國籍，這兩個方向的表述，我們在這邊先表明，第一個，我們支持；第二個，我們還是要有適當的管理，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李柏毅委員、謝謝部長。","再來我們請許宇甄委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-14","speakers":["吳琪銘","莊瑞雄","羅美玲","陳玉珍","黃捷","陳培瑜","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","吳沛憶","王美惠","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","李柏毅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","黃國昌","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳菁徽","陳冠廷","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案；二、審查內政\n部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)\n行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六\n條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國\n籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員\n林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員莊\n瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案、 (十五)委員林岱樺等\n17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四\n條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.68471875,"end":21.344093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.36096875,"end":22.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.23409375,"end":29.309093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.44409375,"end":32.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.78534375,"end":38.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.674718750000004,"end":43.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.80034375,"end":50.031593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.690343750000004,"end":46.892843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.031593750000006,"end":65.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.07971875,"end":76.23846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.33971875,"end":77.94284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.34784375000001,"end":88.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.38846875,"end":88.92846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.70471875000001,"end":93.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.88971875,"end":95.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.18471875,"end":102.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.81659375000001,"end":109.12784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.38096875000001,"end":124.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.53471875000001,"end":135.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.95971875,"end":131.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.02721875,"end":132.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.58784375000002,"end":143.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.68784375,"end":154.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.64409375,"end":157.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.32721875000001,"end":157.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.87971875000002,"end":159.16221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.22971875000002,"end":176.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.89784375000002,"end":179.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.26034375,"end":195.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.17346875,"end":195.98346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.87784375,"end":213.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.71534375000002,"end":217.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.71909375,"end":214.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.78596875000002,"end":218.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.35096875000002,"end":220.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.09721875000002,"end":224.11409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":224.11409375000002,"end":224.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.35034375,"end":224.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.62034375000002,"end":230.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.86409375000002,"end":233.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.66534375,"end":238.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.47034375,"end":252.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":252.97034375,"end":253.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.03346875000003,"end":258.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":259.45034375,"end":262.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.96034375,"end":266.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":266.90909375,"end":267.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.20846875,"end":287.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.85096875,"end":289.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.96034375,"end":316.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.61846875000003,"end":322.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.13659375000003,"end":350.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.96346875,"end":351.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.78159375,"end":355.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.75596875,"end":358.52346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.684,"end":26.594,"text":"部長我剛本來想請花次留下來就是想要跟他討論一點點就是一個是租金的政策租金補貼的政策另外一個就是設宅的政策但我想起來在你任內推動的這個租金補貼其實是來質詢你是讓你來回應也是更有意義的請問你認為今年還要不要繼續做這個中央擴大租金補貼300億的這一項補貼"},{"start":29.58,"end":38.906,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":45.087,"end":55.69,"text":"你是說租屋租屋大概是87萬多將近90萬那來申請的有64萬戶那通過申請那核准的有45萬戶嗎那所以代表這個80萬戶裡面有15萬戶裡面沒有超過20萬戶他沒有來申請租屋補貼那有10萬戶他沒有通過我們的租屋補貼"},{"start":69.594,"end":80.5,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":89.795,"end":115.842,"text":"如果他去跟我們申請租屋補貼造成他的房東不高興把他趕出去不租房子給他了我們對於房東的相關的罰則我們還沒有出來那我也不敢去跟陳其仁保證說不會你放心你去申請你跟內政部申請你去申請你絕對不會被趕出去部長這個問題你有沒有想配套的配套的措施我們怎麼樣來繼續推動那怎麼樣"},{"start":118.464,"end":122.272,"text":"讓所有租屋族真的都可以拿到租金補貼,真的趕來申請。"},{"start":124.785,"end":152.592,"text":"委員兩個部分第一個是剛剛在講全國的租屋有87萬那現在其實這個比例已經很高了我們預計大概我們的覆蓋率應該是再提升一點我們大概80%是極致的因為不可能是100%所以現在的比例其實相對已經高所以剛剛在講我們本來是1.0現在變成2.0所以解決了部分的一個問題"},{"start":153.672,"end":161.138,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":176.96,"end":194.09,"text":"那剛剛在提到因為它涉及還是私權這個租賃它是一個民法之間的一個關係所以你剛剛提到那個強制的部分的確我們也還在做一些思考那我請那個吳署長來做一個補充吳署長簡短"},{"start":197.452,"end":214.296,"text":"好謝謝委員其實這一塊的確是這幾年來慢慢會會一直累積這個問題那我們其實也試著很多方法那也跟委員報告其實我們現在核定數已經到昨天已經衝破49萬戶所以其實很快就很快就大飆了好署長謝謝來我們請那個移民署署長謝謝好署長有"},{"start":226.365,"end":249.897,"text":"有超過6萬甚至更多的非法居留的外籍移工那他們可能都在各地打工他們可能從事很多台灣人不願意去從事的行業那他們可能有很多原因他們已經超過時間然後沒有回到他們的國家去那這個是我們移民署這邊專勤隊這邊會去執行的任務對不對是"},{"start":254.11,"end":265.676,"text":"那現在大概有多少?我們的執行狀況大概怎樣?四年一共的部分,到今年的1月份大概累計有8萬5千多。"},{"start":269.057,"end":289.182,"text":"來謝謝其實我們今天國籍法在討論這個黑戶寶寶其實有一部分我想來自這個失聯移工他們長期留在台灣他們長期在台灣打工生活他們生出來的寶寶沒有辦法報戶口因為一報那好可能就是"},{"start":290.054,"end":298.299,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":317.697,"end":325.164,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":339.736,"end":351.342,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"}]}},{"id":"151643","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151643","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb318d632fb5b8c0aa6e793a383c05d564ceadb1108e4b84432086c014107443c235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:46:06 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10:52:41","影片長度":"00:06:35","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案」案。二、審查本院委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查行政院函請審議「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1"},"duration":395,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:52:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:46:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":394,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（10時46分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：邱部長，請。"],["邱部長國正：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長好。行政院版的陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案，對於軍官、士官、士兵的懲罰，除原有的撤職、降階、降級，記過、罰薪、申誡、檢束之外，新增了剝奪退除給與。在權責長官核定懲罰後，國防部可以剝奪退伍金、退休俸、贍養金、退除給與生活補助費、優惠存款利息等。請問部長，新增的這個剝奪退除給與的懲罰原因為何？"],["邱部長國正：就是剛才法律司司長有概略地跟委員報告，就是因為發覺如果這個人要受到處分、要罰款，但他下個月就退了，或者退了以後，才發覺有案子出來要往前追，而要追的話就沒有著落，所以我們把它加進去以後，可以追溯他以往在軍中所犯的案件，可以一直……哪怕退了，我們一樣可以有辦法把他給追回來，該負的刑責也一樣要他來負。"],["羅委員智強：所以等於是在所謂的退伍之前，如果有案件對不對？等於是一個法規補漏的意思嘛！"],["邱部長國正：是，他的行為如果是已經退了，那就是……"],["羅委員智強：除此之外有別的原因嗎？"],["邱部長國正：其他還有什麼考慮嗎？"],["沈司長世偉：跟委員報告，我們大概就是參考公務員制定的一個規定，然後其他沒有特殊的原因，因為退伍以後，他也無職可撤、無薪可罰，然後就是那些記過等等對他來講的話，已經沒有任何懲罰的一個效果，所以說我們也參考公務員相關的規定，這次有增訂了這個規範。"],["羅委員智強：好。對於剝奪軍人的退除給與，原本在陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例當中，就有規定現役軍士官犯內亂、外患或貪污罪判處有期徒刑之刑確定而未宣告緩刑，或因案判處死刑、無期徒刑確定者，以及依陸海空軍懲罰法規定受撤職處分，不發退除給與。","現在我有看到2016年11月民進黨有修正陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例，加入現役退役軍人如洩漏機密，觸犯國家安全法、國家機密保護法等罪，將視刑責輕重剝奪其全數、部分退休俸。也就是說，原來軍人依照陸海空軍懲罰法遭撤職或犯有洩漏機密、觸犯國安等刑責可以剝奪退除給與。這次的修法是不是擴大了剝奪退除給與的適用範圍？"],["邱部長國正：我請法律司長跟你做說明。"],["沈司長世偉：我跟委員報告，原來服役條例規範的那些大概都是刑事責任附帶的，後面的那個我記得是判刑確定之後，什麼樣的刑度可能是剝奪他50%、20%等等，原來是在服役條例裡面規範的。這次我們在修正的時候，要跟委員報的是，我們有參考公務員相關的規範，我們對於已經退的人，然後發覺他在服役期間，一定是在服役期間，具現役軍人身分的時候，他所犯下的這些行政責任，可能會沒有辦法去做一個相關的……"],["羅委員智強：所以主要還是針對服役期間嘛！"],["沈司長世偉：一定是服役期間。"],["羅委員智強：服役之後的行為規範……"],["沈司長世偉：退伍以後不能懲罰。"],["羅委員智強：很好。我要跟國防部提醒一下，軍人的尊嚴我們國防部要捍衛。實際上，軍人為我們國家犧牲奉獻很大，你動輒說要擴大今天懲罰的範圍，連退休金都要納入就要非常審慎，這一點我不知道部長同不同意？"],["邱部長國正：這我一定同意啊！因為我也是軍人的一分子嘛，我當然支持。"],["羅委員智強：對，那我要問了，按此次修正的第五條、第六條規定，包括違背或逾越法令執行勤務、違反長官命令或服務機關規範、怠於監督所屬人員執行勤務或服役機關管理規範、其他於執行勤務實質不當行為、故意觸犯刑事法律、無故使用或持有毒品、迷幻藥、麻醉藥品、酒駕、拒絕酒測、性騷擾、性霸凌、違反廉政倫理或行政中立規範、未依法兼職或經營商業，這些違紀行為都可以做重大懲處。","我想請問，這裡的重大懲處是包含20萬元以上的財產懲罰嗎？上述的違紀行為是不是都有可能遭到剝奪退除給與？有沒有可能？"],["沈司長世偉：確實，20萬以上這些相關的懲罰是屬於重大懲罰。"],["羅委員智強：對，會擴延到剝奪、退除給與嗎？"],["沈司長世偉：我跟委員報告，第五條、第六條的規範，第五條就是勤務上的行為，你在服勤的時候的行為；第六條原則上就是休假，已經到營外去了……"],["羅委員智強：我講的是會不會到剝奪退除給與？"],["沈司長世偉：應該會。"],["羅委員智強：會？"],["沈司長世偉：但是如果說在營外的行為，除非是列舉的那些事項……"],["羅委員智強：我現在要講的是什麼？跟陸海空軍刑法不同，陸海空軍懲罰法較偏行政處罰，我認為在行政懲處上，對於剝奪退休金這麼嚴厲的懲處要非常謹慎。公務人員違法失職，須經懲戒法院的審理後才可以剝奪他的退休金；軍人有違紀行為，按照這個修正草案，請問是誰來剝奪他？"],["沈司長世偉：報告委員，我們將來會劃出一個權責的區分，不是每一個人都……"],["羅委員智強：是權責長官指派人員調查後核定懲處嗎？"],["沈司長世偉：對。"],["羅委員智強：對於重大懲處要召開專案評議會、懲罰諮詢會嗎？"],["沈司長世偉：是。"],["羅委員智強：我必須說，在公正度、嚴謹度跟受懲軍人懲罰權益保障救濟上面，你覺得可以跟懲戒法院達到相同的標準嗎？"],["沈司長世偉：當然懲戒法院他們……"],["羅委員智強：這就是我剛剛強調的，我真的拜託國防部，這個部分要非常審慎嚴謹，不能變成是行政的濫權跟恣意，請國防部審慎，以上。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員，部長、司長請回。","接下來進行詢答的委員是林思銘委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","林楚茵","沈伯洋","黃國昌","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳永康","陳俊宇","羅智強","林思銘","洪申翰","翁曉玲","陳冠廷","吳思瑤","林憶君","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","沈發惠"],"page_start":251,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案」案；二、審查本院委員徐巧芯等18人擬具\n「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查行政院函請審議「軍人權益事件處理法草\n案」案；四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案","agenda_id":"1133201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.5372187500000001,"end":1.5834687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.8534687500000002,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.03909375,"end":2.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.86596875,"end":2.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.67909375,"end":11.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.82659375,"end":12.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.855968750000002,"end":49.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.89659375,"end":81.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.74409375,"end":89.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.15284375,"end":84.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.70909375000001,"end":93.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.91534375,"end":92.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.27784375,"end":95.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.96534375,"end":109.14471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.01596875,"end":96.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.63409375,"end":112.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.02596875,"end":118.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.03784375000001,"end":171.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.20659375000002,"end":189.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.97596875000002,"end":225.32909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.99159375000002,"end":232.68659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.48471875,"end":229.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":231.50534375,"end":233.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.80471875,"end":235.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.77034375000002,"end":237.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.95159375000003,"end":240.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.65159375000002,"end":243.89159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.39784375000002,"end":252.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.17721875,"end":257.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.50971875,"end":306.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.51471875000004,"end":313.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.30284375,"end":312.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.62346875000003,"end":313.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.80471875,"end":317.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.60159375,"end":336.40034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.79846875000004,"end":328.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.08471875000004,"end":331.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.57346875,"end":337.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.08784375000005,"end":359.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.05909375000005,"end":364.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.33284375000005,"end":366.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.94409375000004,"end":367.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.02846875,"end":371.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.26409375000003,"end":371.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.46659375,"end":381.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.68596875000003,"end":371.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.96284375000005,"end":385.08471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.54909375,"end":386.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.97471875,"end":389.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.72534375000004,"end":394.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.12971875000005,"end":394.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.97346875000005,"end":395.49659375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.549,"end":2.81,"text":"主席有請部長邱部長請部長好行政院版的《陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案》對於軍官、士官、士兵的懲罰除原有的撤職、降階、降級、忌過、罰薪、申戒、減速之外新增了剝奪、退除"},{"start":30.258,"end":48.98,"text":"給予在權責長官核定懲罰後,國防部可以剝奪退伍金、退休奉、善養金、退出給予生活補助費、優惠存款、利息等。」請問部長,新增這個剝奪、退出給予的懲罰原因為何?"},{"start":49.961,"end":64.769,"text":"就剛才我發現事實上有概略跟委員報告就是因為發覺他如果這個人要受到處分要罰款但他下個月就退了或者退了以後才發覺有這個案子出來要往前追"},{"start":65.529,"end":74.491,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":91.934,"end":115.646,"text":"那除此之外有別的原因嗎?我們大概就是參考公務員制定的一個規定,然後其他沒有特殊的原因,因為退伍以後他也無職可撤、無薪可罰,然後就是那些記過等等對他來講的話已經沒有任何的一個懲罰的一個效果,所以說我們也參考公務員相關的規定,我們這次有增訂了這個規範。"},{"start":119.027,"end":141.355,"text":"對於剝奪軍人的退出給予,原本在《陸海空軍軍官事關服役條例》當中,它就有規定現役軍事官犯內亂、外患或貪污罪、判處有期徒刑之刑確定而未宣告緩刑或因案判處死刑無期徒刑確定者以及一、陸海空軍懲罰法規"},{"start":143.456,"end":166.814,"text":"定受撤職處分不發退出給予。」現在2016年我有看到11月民進黨有修正《陸海空軍軍官士官服役條例》加入現役退役軍人如洩漏機密、觸犯國家安全法、國家機密保護法等罪、將事刑責輕重、剝奪其權術部分退休奉。也就是說"},{"start":172.284,"end":188.079,"text":"原來軍人依照陸海空軍懲罰法遭撤職或犯有洩漏、機密、出安、國安等刑責,可以剝奪退出給予,那這次的修法是不是擴大了剝奪退出給予的適用範圍?"},{"start":191.163,"end":205.721,"text":"我跟委員報告原來規範服役條例規範的那些大概都是刑事責任附帶的後面的那個退出就是可能我記得是判刑確定之後什麼樣的刑度可能是剝奪他50%、20%等等原來是在服役條例裡面那樣規範"},{"start":208.884,"end":235.45,"text":"這次我們在修正的時候,我們有參考公務員相關的規範,我們對於已經退的人,然後發覺他在服役期間,一定是在服役期間,現役軍人身份的時候,他所犯的那些過犯責任的行政責任,可能會沒有辦法去做一個相關的...所以主要還是針對服役期間嗎?一定是服役期間。服役之後的那個行為規範。退伍以後不能懲罰。我要跟這個國防部提醒一下,"},{"start":237.1,"end":257.103,"text":"軍人的尊嚴我們國防部要捍衛實際上軍人為我們國家犧牲奉獻很大你動輒如果說要擴大今天懲罰的範圍連退休金都要納入就非常審慎這一點不知道部長同不同意?我一定同意我自己也是軍人一份子嘛我當然支持"},{"start":257.563,"end":267.766,"text":"那我要問,按此次修正的第五條、第六條規定,包括違背或逾越法令執行勤務、違反長官命令或服務機關規範、待於監督所屬人員執行勤務或服務機關管理規範,"},{"start":273.188,"end":291.238,"text":"其他於執行勤務實質不當行為、故意觸犯刑事法律、無故使用或持有毒品、迷幻藥、麻醉藥品、酒駕拒絕酒測、性騷擾、性霸凌、違反廉政倫理行政或行政中立規範、未依法兼職或經營商業這些違紀行為都可以作重大懲處。」我想請問這重大懲處是包含"},{"start":299.062,"end":311.546,"text":"20萬元以上財產懲罰嗎?上述的違紀行為是不是都有可能遭到剝奪、退出、給予?有沒有可能?報告委員對,他確實20萬以上的這些相關的懲罰是屬於重大懲罰。對,那會"},{"start":313.925,"end":336.988,"text":"廓延到剝奪退儲給予嗎?我跟委員報告第5條第6條的規範第5條它就是勤務上的行為你在扶勤的時候的行為第6條原則上就是休假已經到營外去了我講的是會不會到剝奪退儲給予?應該會但是如果說在營外的行為除非是列舉的那些事項我現在要講的是什麼?"},{"start":338.189,"end":357.899,"text":"跟陸海空軍刑法不同,陸海空軍懲罰法較偏行政處罰。我認為,在行政懲處上對於剝奪退休金這麼嚴厲的懲處要謹慎,非常謹慎。公務人員違法失職需經懲戒法院的審理後才可以剝奪他的退休金。軍人有違紀行為,按照這個修正草案,請問是誰來剝奪他?"},{"start":360.34,"end":380.397,"text":"包委,我們將來會畫一個全責的區分,不是每一個人都可以...你是全責長官指派人員調查後核定懲處嗎?對。對於重大懲處要召開專案評議會、懲罰諮詢會嗎?是。我必須說在公正度、嚴謹度跟受懲軍人懲罰權益保障救濟上面,我覺得你覺得可以跟懲戒法院達到相同的標準嗎?"},{"start":383.781,"end":395.055,"text":"這就是我剛剛強調的我真的拜託國防部這個部分要非常審慎嚴謹不能變成是行政的濫權跟恣意請國防部審慎以上好謝謝羅志祥委員"}]}},{"id":"151642","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151642","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3973f6dd2381127ad5a1f541440a910baeadb1108e4b844324d0750d4c0dcedb15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"10:38:33 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10:52:22","影片長度":"00:13:49","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案4案。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":829,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:52:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:38:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":507,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（10時38分）謝謝主席，有請陳主委。"],["主席：有請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：羅委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：主委你好。主委，最近地震頻傳，我們的核能還好嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：目前還好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：目前有沒有任何的災損，或者是內部需要報修的損傷？"],["陳主任委員東陽：0403地震核一廠、核二廠有燃料池的水溢出，總共加起來大概3,600升，我們及時做了清除、除污，沒有具體的損害。"],["羅委員廷瑋：只有溢出而已，除污就OK，那最近呢？前幾天的地震。"],["陳主任委員東陽：沒有，也沒有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：謝謝，我想這是非常重要的一個資訊。那我想跟你另外請問，日本經濟新聞要準總統賴清德重新評估核電政策，主委有沒有什麼回應？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我想國際媒體或國內媒體都有不同的一些評論，我們都可以聽到不同多元的聲音，核安會其實持續都在關注所有各種不同的聲音，但是我也跟委員報告，核安會是核能安全管制的獨立機關，不是能源政策的主管機關。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我知道，主管機關是經濟部，當然我要講的是，在核安會第四次赴日時，日方問臺方，臺灣現在有三座核電廠，是否有新的核電廠的規劃？臺方的回答是，非核家園是臺灣的能源政策，臺灣對此立場並未改變，因此沒有新的核電廠的規劃，在日方問的當下就敢回答，回到國內，我現在問你，你就說不敢回答，而且甚至就跟我講是經濟部的業務。我想我們就直接回應，非核家園就是臺灣最重要的一個能源政策，這是目前執政黨最堅定不移的一個能源政策方向，但是我想問題一、我們在本次報告稱，含氚的廢水現在就是核能安全委員會112年12月25日「參加第9屆臺日核能管制資訊交流會議及參訪核能設施」出國報告內所稱的ALPS的處理水，對嗎？請問福島縣沿岸海域的海水，ALPS的處理水排放前後銫-137活度變動範圍各為多少？最高濃度值為多少？較前次排放有無略高？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個我想請同仁來回答一下。"],["張組長淑君：報告委員，因為銫-137是福島事故一個重要的核種，所以從100年福島事故以來，日本都有持續的在做周邊海域的監控，現在如果以全球的背景來講，日本周邊的銫-137在鄰近海域確實會比全球的背景略高，但是日本都有在做監控，我們也持續關注。"],["羅委員廷瑋：較全球的背景略高，那有沒有比上一次排放有略微升高？有掌握嗎？"],["張組長淑君：目前整個大數據來看，都還在一定的範圍以內。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，一定的範圍內，我覺得你回答的有點模糊，讓我不能夠分析你回答的內容，我覺得這部分的資料是不是可以再讓我們更確切的知道一下？"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，我們再提供資料。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想我們應該掌握的是有沒有更高，而不是在範圍內，我就聽不懂到底我要不要跟民眾來做好相關的防範、我們到底要不要吃海鮮，這些問題我要去做評估，所以其中的數值你可能會後要提供資料給我瞭解一下。","但是，主委，對於含氚廢水，從111年開始臺灣總共4度派員赴日調查，請問這4次的赴日報告，你都有看過嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：最近一次因為我已經上任了，去年的10月底到11月初我有看。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們就這4次的報告來請教主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：我跟羅委員報告，是第4次的報告有看，因為那時候我才上任。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，沒關係，那我們就第4次的報告來跟您詢問一下，主委，你是不是還記得3月28日核能會業務報告時，我依第3次赴日報告內容詢問JAEA大熊分析研究中心是否拿到ISO認證的問題，那時候核安會其他同仁代表主委回復要再確認。主委，確認到現在快一個月了，連一個通知都沒有，都不用通知我？都不用跟我講？核安會是真的螺絲鬆了還是來教委會的次數太少了？完全沒在甩教育及文化委員會。"],["陳主任委員東陽：有點誤會，抱歉！我們當天就確認，它已經拿到ISO，當天就確認了，這個部分我們如果有一些疏忽，我們會再來……"],["羅委員廷瑋：完全沒跟我們回應啊！那我們所準備的資料就會有一些衝突，對不對？我想這個部分很重要，每一次的質詢，我們希望當下如果有最新資訊一定要趕緊回復我們。","就第4次的赴日查證報告第30頁，主委，你自己也可以看到，我們提出了三個問題，我方提出第三方的獨立取採樣及取樣代表性？日方回復依規定只能夠由設施經營者取樣，JAEA大熊分析中心不能夠取樣；那我方也提出東電公司及JAEA的分析結果是否出現不一致？日方答復有關數據第三方只求準確性，是否不一致並非第三方要注意的；我方這個部分還問了JAEA大熊分析實驗中心實驗室認證辦理進度？然後日方當時也回復ISO正在進行中。這個我剛剛已經有得到你的回應了。","我們現在要跟你請問，如果第4次還在說要設ISO，為什麼你剛剛還跟我講說已經取得了相關的認證？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你的報告裡面這樣寫的。"],["張組長淑君：這個報告是我們去年10月出國以後在11月的時候撰寫的，在3月的時候我們就確定他們已經取得了ISO的認證。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我覺得追蹤問題是不是應該是你最重要的一個進度？尤其11月你就在問，到3月我問你的時候你才準備再去問他，那12月、1月、2月不用去追問他？我覺得這部分螺絲有點鬆了。","第一題跟第二題是我剛剛有問的，主委，大熊分析中心是JAEA在福島的一個部門，位於福島第一核電廠內，主要進行福島第一核電廠放射性廢棄物與燃料碎片的分析研究，並為經產省指定之ALPS處理水監測的第三方驗證單位。本席想請問，既然大熊分析研究中心是經產省指定之ALPS處理水監測的第三方驗證單位，但是對於取樣的部分，日方回應，依規定僅能由設施經營者取樣，JAEA分析中心是不能夠去取樣的，只能受政府委託分析，但可共同見證取樣，而取樣的代表性由東電公司負責。主委，可見第三方該具有的獨立取樣及取樣代表性都沒有，請問哪需要設立第三方檢測單位？這樣做為第三方的檢測單位意義何在？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我想就像我們國家海域計畫，取樣的單位跟我們實驗、檢測的單位，其實它是分開的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是我們現在就是擔心，它取的樣並不是我們最直接、最想要去瞭解的。"],["陳主任委員東陽：它各個部門有一些分工，比如說我們的海水、進口食物抽檢，我們在國內也是不同的部會在做負責，他的這些樣品其實不會去講什麼樣的具體的內容，他送到我們實驗室來，大概就是一個編號，由我們實驗室做一些檢測，結果我們再送回原來送樣的單位，由他們來公布。我們整合性的儀表板其實就是我們彙整各部會所有的資訊放在那邊，所以你可以一次就看到所有的資訊。"],["羅委員廷瑋：再者，大熊分析研究中心去年已參與JCAC辦理的實驗室間比對活動，未來也考慮參與IAEA辦理的實驗室間比對，顯然大熊分析研究中心並未符合IAEA以及NRA審查標準。主委，你有沒有什麼答復？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個比對就是實驗室之間實驗的精確度，它通常是要跟別的單位去做一些比較。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對啊！"],["陳主任委員東陽：同樣的試體、同樣的試片做一些比較，那麼我們也藉此來確認或者是有信心來瞭解我們目前實驗的步驟或者是準確性的相關認知，我們輻射偵測中心其實也有做相關的事情，所以我們其實是有經過這個認證的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：在報告的第16頁，我方有提問，日方也曾邀請IAEA的環境放射性分析實驗室（ALMERA）的成員參與檢視海水分析的作業，不知我國的實驗室是否也有機會參與類似的活動或實驗室之間分析比對，有嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我們跟日本的分析中心有一個合作，應該是有比對實驗，就是我們的輻射偵測中心跟日本其實是有一些聯繫。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，對於所有這些，不管是實驗室派員去瞭解，我們都希望能夠更縝密，目的就是希望實驗室所作出的任何報告，都能夠有助於我們做相關的評估、做相關的政策因應，畢竟這樣的排放水對我們大家來說都是前所未見，我們也希望在這個部分，我們可以看到有更緊密、更謹慎的相關評估。","排放了30年才放完，誰敢保證30年間都沒有問題？日本於本月19日中午開始執行第五批次ALPS處理水海洋排放作業，預計排放19天，專家小組將進行安全的審查，我國的作為目前有什麼？可以取得多少相關資訊？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個部分我們跟東京電力持續關注，剛才我跟委員報告，我們核安會在駐日的代表處有一個專任的人員派駐在那個地方，所以我們會第一手拿到相關的資訊。"],["羅委員廷瑋：最後，30年的排放才剛剛開始，它的生態後果、經濟後果、政治後果值得關注。我還是要提醒三點注意，應要求日方同意臺灣及其他所有利益關係國，長期時間可以定期前往距離排放口較近的區域，進行海水取樣並攜回分析，除確保氚輻射符合限值、驗證的各種活度是否正常，也可以確認ALPS的濾除效果是否隨時間因素衰減。","第二個，即便現在沒有問題，連排30年需要持續和嚴密的監督，畢竟這是前所未有的大規模排放，這我剛剛有提到，可能現在的技術、手段和科技水平並無法更準確地推斷未知之數，但我們都是用最縝密、最嚴格的標準去看待這件事情。不應該聚焦在氚的危害，即便有數據說明氚對人體無害，比較令人擔心的是，和原先核廢水相比，還有數十種放射性的物質，例如碘、銫，很有可能在淨化過程中未被百分百清除，我們更希望在這個部分能夠有更大幅度的關注，這部分也麻煩核安會，可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，沒有問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員。我們休息5分鐘。","休息（10時52分）","繼續開會（10時57分）"],["主席：我們現在開始開會。","請張雅琳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葉元之","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","范雲","張嘉郡","吳春城"],"page_start":251,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會\n列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央\n政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案4案","agenda_id":"1133301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.5153437499999995,"end":7.202843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.08034375,"end":9.075968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.699718750000002,"end":17.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.63159375,"end":18.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.078468750000003,"end":21.344093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.765968750000003,"end":26.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.94659375,"end":34.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.860968750000005,"end":35.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.68784375,"end":43.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.07471875,"end":47.820968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.977218750000006,"end":52.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.344093750000006,"end":48.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.39409375,"end":55.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.57534375,"end":53.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.19971875,"end":65.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.65346875,"end":86.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.75346875000001,"end":74.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.65034375,"end":89.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.19409375000001,"end":94.15971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.66596875,"end":94.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.34096875,"end":97.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.60659375,"end":97.14659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.65284375,"end":157.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.16221875000002,"end":174.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.61534375000002,"end":179.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.30221875,"end":212.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.41971875000002,"end":218.30909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":219.96284375000002,"end":220.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.73909375000002,"end":226.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.18534375000002,"end":264.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.87159375000002,"end":237.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.02346875,"end":238.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.49159375,"end":269.84534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.94659375000003,"end":270.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.67221875,"end":272.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.32159375000003,"end":274.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.31284375,"end":280.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.32971875000004,"end":275.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.41346875,"end":284.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.39596875,"end":321.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.31534375,"end":314.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.20096875,"end":316.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.49159375,"end":319.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.52534375000005,"end":319.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.73596875000004,"end":331.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.16471875,"end":334.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.05471875,"end":349.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.84346875,"end":336.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.21034375000005,"end":337.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.72909375,"end":339.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.81596875,"end":378.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.90846875,"end":383.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.86971875,"end":398.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.58471875000004,"end":399.58034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.40721875,"end":402.66846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.73159375,"end":409.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":409.51971875000004,"end":412.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.60346875000005,"end":414.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.79721875,"end":416.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.74221875,"end":418.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.80096875000004,"end":433.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.63409375000003,"end":471.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.65096875,"end":433.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.85284375000003,"end":437.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.02159375,"end":438.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.05846875000003,"end":474.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.38284375,"end":476.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.93534375,"end":495.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.49784375,"end":512.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.13221875,"end":521.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.5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謝謝主席 有請陳主委有請陳主委羅委員好好 主委您好 主委最近地震頻傳喔我們的核能還好嗎目前還好目前有沒有任何的災損或者是內部需要報休損傷我們0403地震 核一廠核二廠有燃料池的水溢出總共加起來大概3600升"},{"start":35.796,"end":40.279,"text":"日本經濟新聞要準總統賴清德重新評估核電政策主委有沒有什麼回應?"},{"start":67.11,"end":93.844,"text":"我想國際媒體或者是國內媒體都有不同的一些評論那麼我們都可以聽到不同多元的聲音那麼核安會其實持續都在關注所有各種不同的聲音但是我也跟委員報告核安會是核能安全的管制的獨立機關他不是"},{"start":98.246,"end":119.533,"text":"主管機關是經濟部的一個業務啦那當然我要講的是在核安會第四次赴日時日方問台方台灣現在有三座核電廠是否有新的核電廠的一個規劃台方的回答非核家園是台灣的能源政策台灣對此立場並未改變因此沒有新的核電廠的一個規劃在日方當下就敢回答"},{"start":119.753,"end":148.726,"text":"回到國內我現在問你你就說不敢回答而且甚至就跟我講說是經濟部的一個業務那我想我們就直接回應嘛非核家園就是台灣最重要的一個能源政策這是目前執政黨最堅定不移的一個能源政策的一個方向但是我想問題一我們在這個本次報告所稱到含氚的一個廢水現在就是核能安全委員會112年12月25日參加第九屆台日核能管制"},{"start":149.866,"end":173.761,"text":"資訊交流會議及參訪核能設施出國報告內所稱的ALPS的處理水對嗎?好請問福島縣沿岸海域的海水ALPS的處理水排放前後設137活度穿活度變動範圍各為多少?最高濃度值為多少?較前次排放有無略高?"},{"start":176.687,"end":205.149,"text":"這個我想請同仁來回答一下報告主席因為涉疫三期是一個福島事故的一個重要的一個合縱所以從那個100年福島事故以來持續的都有在做那個日本都有在做他們周邊的一個海域的一個監控那現在如果以全球的一個背景來講日本周邊的涉疫三期確實在臨近海是確實是會比我們"},{"start":205.789,"end":218.16,"text":"的一個全球的一個背景來略高那但是那日本都有在做監控我們也持續關注叫全球的背景略高啦吼那有沒有比上一次排放有略升高有掌握嗎目前整個大數據來看是都還都在一定的範圍以內"},{"start":227.216,"end":252.967,"text":"好一定的範圍內我覺得你回答的有點模糊讓我不能夠分析你到底回答的內容齁我覺得這個部分資料你是不是可以再讓我們更確切的知道一下我想我們應該掌握是有沒有更高而不是在範圍內我就聽不懂到底我要不要跟我們的民眾來做好這個相關的防範我們到底要不要吃海鮮這些問題我要去做評估啊所以這個質度啊裡面的數值你可能要提供會後資料給我了解一下齁"},{"start":253.667,"end":274.166,"text":"但是主委對於含氚廢水我們現在是111年開始台灣總共4度派員赴日調查我們請問這4次的赴日報告你都有看過嗎最近一次因為我那時候上任已經上任了最近一次去年的10月底到11月的初"},{"start":275.37,"end":301.71,"text":"好 那我們就這四次的報告我們來就請教主委了第四次的報告我跟樓委員報告是第四次有看因為那時候我在上面好 沒關係沒關係那我們就第四次的問題來跟您詢問一下主委 上次你是不是還記得我3月28 原能會的對不起 我們核能會的業務報告我依第三次赴日報告內容詢問我們的教養的大型分析研究中心是否拿到ISO認證的問題"},{"start":303.127,"end":331.499,"text":"那時候核安會跟其他同仁代表跟主委回覆要再確認主委確認到現在快一個月連一個通知都沒有都不用通知我都不用跟我講核安會是真的螺絲鬆了還是來的次數教委會的次數太少了完全沒再甩教育文化委員會有點誤會那個抱歉那個我們當天就確認他已經拿到ISO當天就確認那這個部分我們如果有一些疏忽"},{"start":332.159,"end":332.279,"text":"解凍案"},{"start":350.047,"end":378.127,"text":"四次的赴日查證報告第三十頁主委你自己也可以看到我們提出了三個問題我方提出第三方的獨立採樣取樣性、代表性以及日方已經回歸他有回覆依規定只能夠由設施經營者取樣以大雄分析中心他不能夠取樣那我方也做一個東電公司以及佳雅的分析結果是否出現不一致日方答覆有關數據第三方"},{"start":379.028,"end":402.109,"text":"只求準確性是否不一致並非第三方要注意的我方這個部分還做一個大雄分析實驗中心實驗室辦理認證進度然後日方那當時也回覆ISO正在進行中這個我已經有得到你剛剛的一個回應了那我想我們現在要跟你詢問"},{"start":403.82,"end":413.651,"text":"如果第四次還在說要設ISO那為什麼你剛剛還跟我講說已經取得了這個相關的認證?你的報告裡面這樣寫的啊?"},{"start":419.171,"end":442.267,"text":"報告委員這個報告是我們出國以後去年10月出國以後的一個撰寫的所以在11月的時候的一個撰寫那現在都是在3月的時候我們就有確定了他們已經取得了ISO的一個認證所以我覺得追蹤問題是不是應該是你最重要的一個進度尤其11月你就在問到3月我問你的時候你才準備再去問他"},{"start":443.248,"end":470.767,"text":"那12月、1月、2月這個不用去追問他我覺得這部分是螺絲有點鬆了那第一題跟第二題我剛剛有問的嘛主委大雄分析中心現在是較早設置在福島的一個部門位於福島第一核電廠主要進行福島第一核電廠放射性廢棄物與燃料碎片的分析研究並為經產省指定之LPS處理水監測第三份驗證單位本席就想請問"},{"start":472.128,"end":494.771,"text":"既然大雄分析研究中心是經過審定指定為ALPS處理水監測第三方的一個驗證單位但是對於取樣的部分日方回應依規定僅能由設施經營者來取樣教養分析中心是不能夠去取樣的那只能受政府委託分析但可"},{"start":495.672,"end":511.764,"text":"共同見證取樣而取樣的代表性由東電公司負責諸位可見第三方的具有獨立取樣及取樣代表性都沒有請問哪需要設立第三方檢測單位這樣做第三方的檢測單位意義何在"},{"start":513.348,"end":530.076,"text":"我想取樣的單位就像我們這個國家海域計畫取樣的單位跟我們實驗檢測的單位其實它是分開的對 是分開的但是我們現在就擔心嘛它取的樣並不是我們最直接最想要去了解的"},{"start":531.085,"end":545.896,"text":"他這個各個部門有一些分工比如說我們海水進口失誤、抽檢我們在國內也是不同的部會在做負責但是他的這些樣品"},{"start":546.823,"end":576.005,"text":"他其實不會去講什麼樣的具體的內容但是呢他送到我們實驗室來大概就是一個編號那我們實驗室做一些檢測那麼結果呢我們再送回原來送樣的單位那麼由他們來公布那麼我們整合性的儀表板其實就是我們把會診各部會的所有的資訊放在那邊所以你可以一次就看到所有的資訊跟委員報告"},{"start":576.581,"end":601.747,"text":"好那再者我想我PPT2我看一下我們大雄分析的研究中心去年已參與JCAC辦理的實驗室對實驗室間的比對活動未來也考慮參與IAEA辦理的實驗室間比對請主委顯然那個大雄分析研究中心並未符合IR以及NRA審查標準主委你有沒有什麼答覆"},{"start":603.22,"end":618.876,"text":"我們這個比對就是實驗室之間他實驗的精確度他通常是要跟別的單位去做一些比較同樣的試體同樣的試片那做一些比較那麼我們也藉此來"},{"start":620.958,"end":635.013,"text":"確認或者是有信心來了解我們目前的實驗的步驟或者是準確性的相關的認知那麼我們輻射偵測中心其實也有做相關的事情那麼所以我們其實是有經過這個認證的好"},{"start":637.648,"end":654.295,"text":"那在報告的第16頁我方有提問日方也曾邀請IAEA的環境放射性分析實驗室IOMO的成員參與檢視海水分析的一個作業不知我國的實驗室是否也有機會參與類似的一個活動與實驗室之間分析比對有嗎?"},{"start":655.683,"end":669.845,"text":"我們跟日本的分析中心有一個合作應該是有比對實驗就是我們的輻射偵測中心所以跟日本其實是有一些的連結"},{"start":671.434,"end":698.167,"text":"我希望我們所有這些不管是實驗室的一些派員去了解我們都希望能夠更整密目的就是希望實驗室所做出的任何報告都能夠有助於我們做相關的一個評估來做相關的政策因應畢竟這樣子的一個排放水對我們大家來說都是前所未見我們也希望在這個部分上我們可以看到有更緊密更謹慎的一個相關評估"},{"start":699.367,"end":718.452,"text":"排放了30年才放完,誰敢保證30年間都沒有問題日本於本月19日中午開始執行第5批次LOP處理海洋排放水作業,預計排放19天我想這個組成專家去做安全的一個審查我想我國的一個作為目前有什麼,可以取得多少相關資訊"},{"start":720.876,"end":736.742,"text":"這個部分我們持續關注跟東京電力那剛才我跟委員報告我們在駐日的代表處我們核安會有一個專任的人員派駐在那個地方所以我們會第一手拿到相關的資訊"},{"start":738.769,"end":766.276,"text":"我想這樣子最後30年的排放剛剛才開始他的生態後果、經濟後果、政治後果值得關注我還是要提醒注意三點應要求日方同意台灣及其他所有利益國長期時間可以去做定期取得這個距離排放口較近的一個區域進行海水取樣並吸回分析然後除確保穿輻射"},{"start":767.296,"end":791.913,"text":"符合其限制裡面 驗證的一個各種活度是否正常也可以確認LPS的入渠效果能夠是否就衰減因素第二個時間即便現在沒有問題連排30年持續的嚴密的監督畢竟這是前所未有的一個大規模排放這是我剛剛有提到可能現在的技術手段和科技水平並無法"},{"start":792.293,"end":819.216,"text":"更準確的推斷或者是未知之數我們都是用最整密、最嚴格的標準去看待這件事情那不應該聚焦在氚的一個危害即便有數據說明氚對人體無害比較令人擔心的是和原先核廢水相比氚還有數十種放射性的物質例如其他點、色很有可能在淨化過程中未備百分百我們更希望在這個部分能夠有"},{"start":820.278,"end":822.943,"text":"更大幅度關注這部分也麻煩何安慧"}]}},{"id":"151641","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151641","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb33f21bf7cb3253bacb903698ddfaa754aeadb1108e4b844321b76f479fa821a835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"10:40:12 - 10:51:24","影片長度":"00:11:12","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":672,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:51:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:40:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":596,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（10時40分）謝謝主席，有請薛部長，同時也請張秀鴛司長。"],["主席：請薛部長、請張司長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。雖然還有一個月左右的時間。"],["薛部長瑞元：不到了。"],["王委員正旭：部長繼續辛苦，因為其實保護民眾所有的工程或者是事情，真的是沒有所謂可以休息的時間，就麻煩部長和同仁們繼續努力。","今天要跟部長討論的主題是健全高齡者受暴防治機制，早上也聽了部長的簡報，另外，如果時間夠，我們希望能夠多瞭解一下臺灣目前在推的「無管人生」到底有沒有什麼問題或是成效。","我們先看健全高齡者受暴的因應跟防治機制。我們也知道家有一老如有一寶，而兒童是我們國家未來的主人翁，所以不管是年長者或者是兒童們，我們都很希望能夠用社會的力量來提供一個良好、安全的生活環境，讓他們不管是在生活當中或在成長當中，都能夠受到很好的保護，讓他們免於各種可能的風險。我們也知道其實過去這五年來，老人受暴的通報率成長了52%，而且在今年2月3日，那時候可能是因應春節的關係，所以衛福部也特別把受虐、受暴這些訊息傳遞給民眾們，看起來主要的原因之一，就是這些老人受暴的成因分析裡面，好像跟照顧或者是經濟依賴是有一些關係的。所以這邊想要瞭解的就是，通常這些施暴者如果又是照顧者的話，到底你們分析的這麼多案件裡面，這樣的百分比是多少？如果有這樣的狀況的話，它跟季節性有沒有關係？因為我們看到好像春節就會比較擔心，就會提供民眾作為一些參考。如果不是季節的話，這個案件是不是非季節因素造成的風險比較低？有沒有相關內部的分析可以提供給我們做參考？"],["薛部長瑞元：這裡面大概有一些數字，以去年來講，老人保護案件大概2萬2,540件，其中直系血親卑親屬作為施暴者的大概占百分之五十五，就是說子女或是孫子女對老人施暴的就大概占了百分之五十五；其次就是親密關係伴侶，比方說夫妻之間，這一種占了百分之二十六；另外就是其他家庭成員，大概占了百分之十四；非家庭成員大概就比較少，大概是百分之五。有時候我們會覺得是不是像照服員或是外籍看護會比較容易有這種案件，但其實不是，而是自己的子女，這是最多的。"],["王委員正旭：所以我們有時候也會在網路上看到一些影片，就是這些高齡者是怎麼被施暴的，我們都替他們擔心，也覺得這樣的作為真的是不應該，除了相關的刑責以外，我們也期待多瞭解一下。剛剛部長也提供一些訊息告訴我們說……"],["薛部長瑞元：直系血親卑親屬或是親密關係通常會是同住的人，同住的人有比較多施暴的現象，當然有些是因為老人家有失能的狀況或者已經有失智，所以他沒有辦法配合照顧者的要求，照顧者如果本身在這方面的知識也不夠的話，他一抓狂起來就會出現這種動作，所以為什麼同居家屬的比例會比較高，也是有原因的。"],["王委員正旭：是，剛剛有提到季節性，一年裡面有那麼長的時間，會不會在哪一些季節的時候特別容易出現這樣的狀況？"],["薛部長瑞元：季節是比較不會啦，但是不管是哪一種情形的家暴，我們發現都是節慶的時間發生得比較多，所以連假也不要休太久。"],["王委員正旭：其實照顧者也很需要有另外的方式來放鬆他在照顧的過程中所帶來的這種相對的壓力，所以如何能夠提供照顧者好的、另外的適應方式？可能也要麻煩衛福部，因為這個策略的確是非常的不一樣，我們如果知道它的可能成因的話，所以下面要討論的就是，你們有哪一些作為可以讓我們在面對這種年長者受到施暴的時候能提早因應，因為我們將來都有機會變成一個社會的年長者，當然我們不希望需要那麼多的人來照顧我們，可是在很難避免的情況之下，如果我們現在能夠有好的因應措施或作為的話，希望能夠保護更多的年長者。我們可以看下面這一張，到底我們有沒有辦法用現有的或者是更好的軟體應用程式等等，至少可以知道當施暴者對老人家提供或者造成身體上或語言上的暴力的時候，我們要如何提早來因應？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分其實是這樣子，即使有一些軟體應用程式或者一些科技的方式，通常他也很難用在自己的家裡，你如果是在照護機構裡面或者是社區的日照中心這一類的話，也許還做得到。但是從我們的統計來看，親密關係或者是家屬之間的施暴是占最多數的，等於這些科技的東西就比較派不上用場，所以我是認為可能最重要的是要讓這些照顧的家屬知道，其實政府的長照2.0是有提供一些方法可以來協助他們，照顧這些老人家並不是只能依靠你這個家屬，那不是唯一的方法，要讓他們知道他們有地方可以來尋求幫助或協助，我覺得這才是最重要的。"],["王委員正旭：是，所以我們希望這是一個好的照顧網絡，不只是各個單位做自己的事情，而是希望碰到問題的時候可以有更好的思維模式，不管從網絡的合作或者是扎根社區整體地去保護所有社區的居民，包括這些年長者。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["王委員正旭：謝謝。針對無管人生，我們也希望多瞭解一點點，雖然礙於時間的關係，但我還是想瞭解一下。其實衛福部在兩年前就開始希望讓留置鼻胃管的民眾能夠有機會把管子拔除，重新享受他作為一個人可以從嘴巴來進食，但到目前為止，好像我們所看到的成效還是有一些限制，因為從111年6月1日開始執行到目前為止，就我們瞭解，只有200件左右有透過健保申請，這個量似乎跟當初的預估有很大的落差，不知道目前在執行上有碰到哪些困境，或者有哪些是需要重新提出來檢討的部分？"],["薛部長瑞元：關於這部分，如果健保能夠提供一個適當的誘因，應該是有幫助的，也就是說放置鼻胃管的原因是照顧比較方便，就直接用liquid diet直接灌食，這樣對照顧者好像比較方便，但是對於這一個受照顧人來講的話，他就失去了咀嚼、吞嚥這一些功能恢復的機會，所以兩者之間要去做一些平衡，也就是說其實我們如果要拔除鼻胃管，健保要提供一個誘因，這樣拔除之後，照顧者不會覺得要去餵食是一個困難的事情，倒不如直接灌食是比較方便，讓這個狀況可以扭轉。"],["王委員正旭：所以我們期待部裡面也有更好的配套措施，讓這些插鼻胃管的民眾有機會透過大家的努力把鼻胃管拔除，同時有更好的生活品質，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員。現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時51分）","繼續開會（11時1分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 檢討 112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政\n署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具\n體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.122218750000002,"end":13.294718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.14284375,"end":14.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.037218750000001,"end":16.180343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.90596875,"end":17.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.30659375,"end":18.610343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.89721875,"end":20.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.54221875,"end":25.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.44034375,"end":27.149093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.149093750000002,"end":98.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.351593750000003,"end":27.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.73971875,"end":27.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.61471875000001,"end":102.76596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.81221875,"end":119.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.09659375000001,"end":125.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.95221875000001,"end":130.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.40284375000002,"end":132.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.59659375,"end":142.75971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.41784375,"end":146.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.20221875000001,"end":147.78846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.14284375,"end":154.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.70721875,"end":178.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.27721875,"end":189.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.07721875000001,"end":197.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.70471875,"end":205.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.72034375,"end":214.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.96784375000001,"end":225.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.24471875,"end":230.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.89784375000002,"end":232.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.97346875000002,"end":248.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.32971875,"end":273.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.29471875,"end":256.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.51409375000003,"end":256.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":263.36534375,"end":263.58471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.87034375,"end":285.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.31221875,"end":279.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.71721875000003,"end":279.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.80971875,"end":282.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.28159375,"end":298.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.80284375,"end":323.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.06409375000004,"end":301.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.04159375,"end":310.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.01596875,"end":313.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.38284375,"end":313.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.37284375,"end":335.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.29096875000005,"end":343.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.65659375,"end":344.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.46659375,"end":351.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.45784375,"end":346.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.94284375,"end":347.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.01034375,"end":348.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.48221875,"end":423.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.78096875,"end":386.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.48096875000005,"end":388.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.98159375,"end":435.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.41846875000005,"end":448.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":448.48409375000006,"end":459.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.51596875,"end":462.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.50721875000005,"end":465.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.46034375000005,"end":472.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.09221875000003,"end":472.10909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.12596875,"end":474.28596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":475.23096875000005,"end":478.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.28096875000006,"end":482.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.41534375000003,"end":487.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.02221875000004,"end":495.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.53159375,"end":505.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.33596875,"end":581.5772187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":582.15096875,"end":591.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":591.8203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Art就直接灌食那這樣子的話對照顧者好像是比較方便但是對於這一個受照顧人來講的話"},{"start":611.853,"end":630.741,"text":"他就失去了這個咀嚼啦等等吞唸了這一些的功能恢復的一個機會所以這兩者兩者的話要去做一些平衡啦也就是說即使我們如果要把柱比位管這件事情健保要提供一個"},{"start":631.861,"end":645.788,"text":"一個誘因,這樣拔除之後的話,照顧者仍然不會覺得說要去餵食是一個困難的事情,倒不如直接灌食是比較方便,要讓這個狀況是扭轉。」"},{"start":650.35,"end":669.244,"text":"所以我們期待部裡面也有更好的配套措施來讓我們這些查筆位管的民眾有機會透過大家的努力把這個筆位管拔除那同時有更好的生活品質好那謝謝部長謝謝好謝謝王振旭委員我們現在休息10分鐘"}]}},{"id":"151640","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151640","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3c671f92b5d032efaa8d86c0863c2f2caeadb1108e4b84432f5c28993bd16223b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"10:42:21 - 10:50:17","影片長度":"00:07:56","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案。\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員黃建賓等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-9"},"duration":476,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:50:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:42:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":474,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（10時42分）謝謝主席。請王部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，辛苦了。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我首先問一下，上個禮拜包括王耀庭總經理請辭，其實我覺得他做了很多說明，部長也做很多說明，上禮拜四就不斷講到，我看你不斷地澄清，這其實不是因為缺電所造成的……"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：是地震後所產生的，但是你怎麼說，不聽的就是不聽，這個當然一定很挫折，對於整個公務體系，你們同仁一定很挫折。","我要講的是停電的次數從2012年的21,019次到2023年降為6,133次，其實10年來降了7成，可是我們看這個曲線是這樣，一個是往下降，但另外一個快速上升是網路傳播的速度，從2012年所謂的缺電、停電的事情原先只談4次，到了最近暴增起來，從2021年、2022年暴增起來，超過25萬次，增加了6萬倍。我認為這也是遇到了一個最大的問題，就是專業的經理人所講的話其實在某些領域上是沒有人要聽，就是他不接受，他不接受之後，不斷地去渲染，不斷去講，這個往往就會造成了整個行政體系上很大的困擾，你怎麼講、不斷地澄清，但是有些人不接受，不聽就是不聽，不斷地渲染出去。部長怎麼看待這樣的現象？"],["王部長美花：這個就是王總經理感覺非常挫折的地方，我覺得大家應該就事論事，把這樣的事故造成的電廠事故或者是配電系統的設備故障講成是缺電，還在責備相關的修復時間等等，這個確實對台電人員是非常的不公平，所以我們想要讓大家知道，就這個事故的部分和大家可能有能源政策的不同應該要分得清楚，不要混為一談。"],["賴委員瑞隆：政黨間有不同的能源政策、能源思考，當然相互尊重……"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：但是專業經理人有專業的意見，要尊重他們的專業……"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果連這個部分都沒辦法去幫忙捍衛他們的基本尊嚴以及他們說話的權利的時候，當然所有的文官體系會更加的辛苦，這個我覺得長遠來說對國家絕對不是一件好事情，所以我們也再次呼籲，應該不要讓朝野的攻防滲入到、影響到整個專業文官，他們有他們專業上的判斷，要尊重他們，如果你不斷地把這些渲染開來，對真正在做事的基層人員其實是不公平的。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們也希望部長要持續捍衛專業文官的發言以及相關的權益。"],["王部長美花：是，也謝謝委員的支持。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，這是大家共同的責任，如果我們不捍衛的話，我認為這個現象持續會讓臺灣往下走……"],["王部長美花：沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我認為這是大家共同的責任。","再來，2018年我在質詢沈榮津部長的時候就曾經問過，當我們提核廢料的部分，在野黨不要核廢料；當我們提深澳電廠，因為空氣污染，他們不要燃煤；當我們的三接要做的時候，他們燃氣也不要，三接也不做；當我們的綠能在發展的時候，他們用各種方式去抹黑、攻擊綠能，那電從哪裡來？沈榮津部長當時當然講的比較玩笑話，說只能插鼻孔來發電，但是事實上這是很無奈的發言！我覺得這也是另外一個問題，所有的人士都應該來思考，當你什麼都不要、什麼發電方式都不要的時候，你要電，那電從哪裡來？所以我覺得這個要很深刻地去處理。我前兩天看到王耀庭總經理的發言也是很無奈！要晶圓廠，但是不要發電廠，連變電所，你看松信變電所拖了多久，完全無法來推動，你連變電所都不給的時候，電怎麼送出去？"],["王部長美花：對，所以最近我還看到針對臺北的松湖，因為這個拖了20年沒有蓋，造成電送不進來，也講是我們缺電，這個我們已經一再澄清了，但是還是有非常多人這樣扭曲，這個絕對不是缺電的問題，這個絕對不是我們不願意供電，而是相關的阻撓超過了20年，造成這個delay，讓變電所的建設delay，就造成在那個地區，如果大用戶的話，就可能會受到限制，我想這個事實的因果關係不要弄混淆了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，所以在電力輸送出去的那個部分還是要持續地去溝通……"],["王部長美花：沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：去說明你不能連變電所都不要，說你要電力的穩定性，這當然就遇到更大的困難。"],["王部長美花：所以臺北市政府最近終於給我們了，所以我們趕快加緊來蓋，還要蓋臨時的，再蓋正式的，才能夠……"],["賴委員瑞隆：包括電廠也是……"],["王部長美花：沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：南部還在蓋第七接收站，南部的興達、南部的大林也都繼續在支撐著燃氣電廠的工程，南部都全力地南電北送、電力往北在送的時候，北部當然也要面對以及接受這個問題，你不可能只要電，卻不要電廠，這是不可能的事情。"],["王部長美花：是，沒錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以這個部分，我希望大家都要理性地來思考，然後來討論，我們國家產業不斷在發展，電力需求上確實在增加，各種產業不斷進來，半導體產業持續在擴展，甚至於我們的經濟持續在擴展，電力上有其需求，電從哪裡來？我們加速發展綠電，但再怎麼快，它還需要一點時間，所以必然各樣的發電系統一定要同步在推動……"],["王部長美花：沒有錯。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以部長和所有同仁，我們繼續努力，我覺得國家是大家的，臺灣是大家的，大家要同心來推，如果都用偏狹觀念的話，我高雄發的電不往中送、往北送的話，北部怎麼辦？所以我說這個要有國家一體的概念，國家才會進步，好不好？我希望部長及所有同仁要勇敢大聲地不斷把這些事實對外講，這樣才能夠讓基層的同仁更有勇氣去做他們該做的事情，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：也不應該讓他們受到委屈而離開，每一個離開背後都有更多影響，是重大的影響，對國家絕對是負面的。"],["王部長美花：是，謝謝委員。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝。","今天我們來處理的是工廠管理輔導法，其實問題出在於罰則過低，所以上次明揚的部分，後來用消防法罰了240萬，事實上，工廠管理輔導法確實有罰則偏低的狀況，過去只有1到5萬，這個太低了，完全無嚇阻力，所以這次我們增加到了500萬，這也是院版，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我提案的修正條文裡面還有提到，甚至於如果有遇到一些重大狀況的時候，得勒令停工，申請後再復工這樣的狀況。部長同意這樣的作法嗎？"],["王部長美花：本來對這樣情節重大的時候，我們就有這個機制。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，有這個機制，我只是把這個機制納入法裡面來，就像2022年當時中油大林廠發生的那一次嚴重事故，當然也是停工了，後來申請後再復工。事實上，重大的時候都有這樣的程序，我們只是把這個程序放到法裡面來，我也希望部長思考一下，如果放進來，給予業者更大的壓力，其實程序上也都這麼做，只要發生重大的時候，大概也一定都是停工，後來申請後再復工，我們希望明天再來討論，也希望部長能夠支持。"],["王部長美花：好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：好，謝謝部長，辛苦了！部長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝賴瑞隆委員。","接下來請邱志偉委員發言。","邱志偉委員發言之後，我們就休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-9","speakers":["邱議瑩","黃建賓","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林思銘","林岱樺","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","鄭正鈐","謝衣鳯","蔡易餘","何欣純","黃國昌","洪孟楷","黃捷","羅智強","牛煦庭","陳超明","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷","王美惠"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等 21案；二、審查：\n(一)行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(二)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員\n黃建賓等 17 人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案、(六)\n本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員蔡易\n餘等20 人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)本院\n委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及\n第三十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.26659375,"end":4.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.152218750000001,"end":9.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.649718750000002,"end":10.341593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.117218750000003,"end":16.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.724718750000001,"end":16.652843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.973468750000002,"end":24.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.00596875,"end":37.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.38034375,"end":33.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.32034375,"end":74.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.97284375000001,"end":88.23659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.50659375000001,"end":95.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.08346875000001,"end":101.55096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.00659375000001,"end":103.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.47471875000001,"end":117.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.21096875,"end":122.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.07096875,"end":125.20971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.46284375,"end":143.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.60346875000002,"end":204.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.63721875000002,"end":143.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.13034375,"end":147.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.41784375,"end":198.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.81409375,"end":200.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.18471875,"end":223.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.46846875000003,"end":225.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.97034375,"end":261.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.49784375000002,"end":252.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.60659375,"end":259.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.00284375,"end":300.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.37221875,"end":311.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.50221875,"end":306.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.56471875,"end":318.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.02346875,"end":372.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.86846875000003,"end":338.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.77596875,"end":364.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.08659375,"end":402.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.38721875000005,"end":393.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.80909375000005,"end":394.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.71159375,"end":396.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.24659375000005,"end":402.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.63471875000005,"end":436.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.92159375,"end":403.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.32971875000004,"end":441.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.49784375,"end":473.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.55409375000005,"end":459.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.27909375,"end":464.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.24034375,"end":470.03346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.70846875,"end":472.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.16346875000005,"end":475.97346875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.162,"end":7.824,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15.168,"end":36.795,"text":"副部長辛苦了 副部長我想首先要問一下其實上個禮拜包括王雅婷總經理請辭了其實我覺得這個他也做了很多的說明部長也做了很多的說明上禮拜四就不斷講到啦我看不斷的澄清就其實不是因為缺電所造成的因為地震後所產生的這個但是你怎麼說不聽的就是不聽啦這個"},{"start":38.536,"end":60.859,"text":"當然一定很挫折啦對於整個公務體系裡面同仁一定很挫折那我要講的是其實從停電的次數從這個2012年的兩萬一千零一十九次到2023年降為六一三三次其實十年來降了七成可是我們看這個曲線是這樣一個是往下降但另外一個快速上升是網路傳播的速度從原先的2012年"},{"start":62.06,"end":90.12,"text":"只談所謂的停電的事情談四次,到了最近暴增起來,從2021年、2022年暴增起來,到了二十五萬,超過二十五萬次,增加了六萬倍了。我認為這也是遇到了最大的一個問題,就是說專業的經理人所講的話,專業的講的話,其實在某些領域上是沒有人要聽,就是他不接受,他不接受之後不斷的去渲染,不斷去講自己,所以這個往往就會造成了整個"},{"start":90.921,"end":97.281,"text":"行政體系上很大的一個困擾你怎麼講不斷的澄清但是有些人"},{"start":97.708,"end":107.85,"text":"不接受、不聽就是不聽,不斷地渲染出去。」部長怎麼看待這樣的一個現象?這就是王總經理他感覺非常挫折的地方。那我覺得大家應該就事論事。把這樣的一個事故造成的電廠事故或者是配電系統的設備故障講成說缺電。"},{"start":122.213,"end":124.876,"text":"責備相關修復時間等,確實對台電人員是非常不公平。所以我們想要讓大家知道,就這個事故的部分,跟大家可能有能源政策的不同,應該要分得清楚,不要把它混為一談。"},{"start":143.715,"end":172.55,"text":"政黨經由不同的能源政策能源思考這個當然相互尊重但是在專業經理人專業意見這個要尊重他們的專業的那個那如果連這個部分都都沒辦法去幫忙捍衛他們的一些基本的尊嚴跟他們整個說話的權利的時候那當然說的文官的體系會更加的辛苦啦這個我覺得長遠來說對國家絕對不是一件好事情所以我們也再次呼籲啦其實應該要不要讓草野的攻防滲入到影響到了整個專業文官的那個"},{"start":172.79,"end":180.58,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查一、第三十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案的判斷,尊重他們的判斷。如果你不斷地把這些渲染開來,對真正在做事的基層人員其實是不公平的。」"},{"start":189.431,"end":192.214,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、"},{"start":205.246,"end":207.667,"text":"當我們的綠能在發燃的時候用各種方式去抹黑攻擊綠能"},{"start":224.511,"end":229.297,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算"},{"start":242.774,"end":258.149,"text":"所以我覺得這個是很深刻的要去處理我從前兩天看到王耀廷總經理的發言上也是很無奈這樣要晶圓廠但是不要發電廠連電電鎖你看松性電電鎖那個東西拖了多久然後完全無法來推動"},{"start":258.809,"end":259.65,"text":"二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":276.7,"end":282.062,"text":"把這樣的一個扭曲這個絕對不是缺電的問題那這個絕對不是我們不願意供電而是這個相關的阻撓超過了20年那造成這個delay這個讓變電所的建設delay那這個就造成在那個地區如果大用戶的話那就可能會受到限制我想這個事實是因果關係不要弄混淆了"},{"start":300.387,"end":311.634,"text":"所以部長在那個電力的那個輸送出去那個還是要持續的去溝通說明你不能連便利的手都不要的時候那你要電力的穩定性所以臺北市政府在最近終於給我們了所以我們趕快加緊來蓋那還要蓋臨時的再蓋正式的他才能夠"},{"start":319.539,"end":337.655,"text":"電廠也是嘛吼,南部還在蓋第七接收站,南部的興達、南部的大林也都繼續在支撐著這個燃氣電廠的工程,那南部都全力的當南電北送往北再送的時候,那北部當然也要面對跟接受這個問題,你不可能只要電而卻不要電廠,這是不可能的事情嗎?"},{"start":337.875,"end":338.695,"text":"二、審查．一、處理或審查"},{"start":363.621,"end":387.06,"text":"所以我是覺得部長跟所有的同仁我們繼續努力我覺得國家是大家的台灣是大家的大家要同心來推如果都用偏狹的觀念的話那我高雄發的電我不往中送往北送的話那北部怎麼辦所以我說這個是要有整個國家一體的概念這樣國家才會進步好不好我希望部長跟所有的要勇敢大聲的不斷的把這些事實對外講"},{"start":387.941,"end":390.923,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查一、二十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":404.452,"end":425.006,"text":"謝謝那今天我們來處理的是工廠管理輔導法其實問題也出在於法則過低所以上次的這個民洋的部分後來他用消防法罰了兩百四十萬那事實上工廠管理輔導法確實偏低的狀況結果那過去只有這個一到五位這個這個太低了完全無嚇阻力所以這一次我們增加到了500這也是院版對不對"},{"start":425.646,"end":430.308,"text":"一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案。"},{"start":437.603,"end":463.553,"text":"本來對這樣勤解重大的時候我們就有這個機制對我只有這個機制我只把這個機制納入法裡面來就像當時的中油這個大林場發生2022年那次嚴重的時候事實上也是當然是停工了然後後來再申請後再復工事實上重大的時候都有這樣的程序那我們只把這個程序放到法裡面來我也希望部長思考一下如果放進來給予業者更大的一個壓力其實程序上也都這麼做"},{"start":464.793,"end":466.978,"text":"三十七條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"151639","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151639","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb338aa9f3a0b0112316abc9c09ba589754eadb1108e4b84432a10c39d4f6f692525ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:41:33 - 10:48:21","影片長度":"00:06:48","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":408,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:48:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:41:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":509,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（10時41分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請林部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，經過這一陣子，我們覺得平安是一件非常重要的事情。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，你是都市計畫相關科系畢業的，是嗎？"],["林部長右昌：對。"],["黃委員建賓：所以部長在內政這一塊是學有專精，很遺憾部長沒辦法繼續留在國會裡面替我們國人來解決問題，不過也期待部長到新的領域能夠繼續來替我們國人服務。以下我就一些問題來跟部長就教。部長，本席想要請教一下，我們未來的賴清德總統說，未來他在兩任的總統任期內要建構100戶社會住宅……"],["林部長右昌：100萬戶。"],["黃委員建賓：100萬戶社會住宅的資源，滿足我們臺灣社會的租屋需求，這100萬戶是由蔡總統的20萬戶，再加上他未來的80萬戶，就是新建住宅17萬戶，包租代管17萬戶，加未來租金補貼50萬戶，總共100萬戶，8年100萬戶，就部長的專業來看，我們要怎麼做比較有可能完成？"],["林部長右昌：我們現在第一期的部分，12萬戶在今年年底應該是可以達成，而且甚至可以稍微超標，至於未來8年的時間，我想過去是因為需要一點摸索還有累積經驗的過程，不過到今年底已經可以達到12萬戶的話，我想未來在12加13的部分，應該是可期的，因為這部分有了經驗的累積。"],["黃委員建賓：所以部長你是樂觀地看待這件計畫就對了？"],["林部長右昌：我想我們是正面的。另外，第二個也是因為這樣子，所以我們為什麼要儲備社會住宅的土地？包括直轄市5%，還有非直轄市3%，如果在推動區徵，或者是市地重劃的時候，要預留社會住宅的土地，也是為了未來整個社宅土地的儲備。"],["黃委員建賓：好，我們也期待啦，期待未來社會住宅的興建能夠真的有效地解決我們弱勢的族群，還有青少年租屋的需求。"],["林部長右昌：是，因為它需要一個量，它需要一個一定的基本量。"],["黃委員建賓：是，部長，因為很多委員都有提到社會住宅費用的部分，有所謂的身分別還有收入別，是按照這兩個類型來做嘛，剛剛麥玉珍委員也有提到。部長，我的意思是目前的執行好像在收入別有遇到一些困難，是不是能夠在會後把你們遇到的困難，提交報告到本席辦公室來瞭解一下？"],["林部長右昌：好，我把我們現在相關研議的一個情形提供給委員。"],["黃委員建賓：本席覺得用收入的方式，是因為我們現在中低收入戶的認定標準，是以每人每月平均有沒有低於我們最低的生活標準來算，所以收入其實是一個相對容易計算的方式，既然部長有提到在執行上有遇到一些困難，我們就請部長將資料送到本席辦公室。另外，部長再請教一下，我們在這個報告看到，114年到119年的城鄉淨零綠生活及創生營造計畫，這個部分是不是在國土署？"],["林部長右昌：對，在國土署。"],["黃委員建賓：署長，這個計畫是屬於競爭型的，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，現在有競爭型，當然也會有過去城鄉風貌政策延伸的部分，都會有。"],["黃委員建賓：是，署長，其實本席想要瞭解的是，我們的目標是要淨零排放，然後城市重新規劃嘛。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["黃委員建賓：我們簡單依照過去8年的成效來看，其實跳票的機會是滿高的，2050年淨零排放應該是會跳票了，依照相關的數據來看，這個是滿難的問題。另外，我想要請教的是，如果我們要透過都市更新的部分，重新整建整個核心區域還有周邊的公共空間，來改善都市的生活機能，提升我們居民的環境品質，這樣是不是能夠有效地遏止人口往外跑，是這樣的目的，對不對？"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯。"],["黃委員建賓：這樣跟你們的創生計畫是不是有相違背？"],["吳署長欣修：其實兩個的概念是不一樣，因為創生本來就是希望你在原來的社區裡面，能夠提出新的，尤其是產業面這樣的一個發展。對於我們來講，我們是提供一個好的居住型環境，讓今天來這裡創業的，不管你是在地經營或者是外來要在地化，不管從產業面或是從居住面都能夠得到比較好的照顧，這兩個是不違背的，而且它是可以搭配的。"],["黃委員建賓：你創生的目的是希望島內移民，就是地方利用地產的整個發展，吸引其他的島內移民過來地方鄉鎮嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：那是一部分，有一部分是地方自己能夠自主，不要再讓人往外流。"],["黃委員建賓：所以這兩個計畫不會相違背就對了？"],["吳署長欣修：是，兩個其實不違背。"],["黃委員建賓：本席剛才問署長這是不是競爭型的計畫，最主要的目的是，臺東縣整個都市計畫區的土地面積相對其他縣市是比較小的。"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解。"],["黃委員建賓：未來如果這個計畫施行的時候，如果是競爭型的話，這個是不是會導致我們臺東縣沒有辦法跟其他縣市來競爭？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實我們跟國發會的合作仍然會持續，因為這兩件事情我們在過去已經有很好的合作機制，尤其花東地區，國發會有跟我們提出另外一個類型的計畫，希望我們繼續協助它，也就是說，由我們署來協助它做相關的規劃跟創生計畫的審查，還有創生計畫的經費支持，所以這個部分我們都沒有停，還會繼續。"],["黃委員建賓：本席會這樣問，最主要是真的很擔心。"],["吳署長欣修：我瞭解。"],["黃委員建賓：因為臺東縣的資源相對就比較少。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["黃委員建賓：如果在這樣的條件下跟其他縣市競爭，它也相對弱勢，那弱勢會越來越弱勢。"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解。"],["黃委員建賓：所以有署長這邊的承諾，我也很放心，也可以讓臺東縣民知道，未來在競爭上中央絕對會支持，署長是不是這個意思？"],["吳署長欣修：我們會跟國發會一起合作，繼續把這個部分推動下去。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝署長，也謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席（黃委員捷代）：好，謝謝黃建賓委員。","再來我們請李柏毅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-14","speakers":["吳琪銘","莊瑞雄","羅美玲","陳玉珍","黃捷","陳培瑜","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","吳沛憶","王美惠","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","李柏毅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","黃國昌","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳菁徽","陳冠廷","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案；二、審查內政\n部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)\n行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六\n條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國\n籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員\n林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員莊\n瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案、 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同的我們期望如何但他們可以把他們有那麼困難也做說明將來協調合作的所產生的問題比較好解決"},{"start":327.298,"end":351.052,"text":"好,那依照我們我國現行的這個平時的這個司法還有暫時的軍審的制度來說平時的這個軍法案件交由一般的司法機關來這個審理那軍方可能會有疑慮的說部隊的管理有別於一般的機關是否能夠適當的處分和判決那這個部分國防部應該要如何來觀察"},{"start":352.012,"end":378.884,"text":"這的確文憑發掘的問題,我要跟各位舉一個很簡單的例子,說在這個營區裡面有幾個兵員鬥毆,都由後來交給這個外民一般法律以後,他之後審判結果是不予處分,因為他覺得你這個鬥毆根本沒有造成大家公共的危害,那這個的認知不同就會產生很大的差異,這也就以後我們要強化的地方。"},{"start":381.226,"end":408.206,"text":"那我想我們這個軍事審判的制度能夠這個完備的話我希望我們能夠更加的齊全這是攸關我們國家安全的大事那我們這個不論在法條上的修訂或是在審判制度上的變革都應該更加的謹慎將所有可能涉及的因素納進來通盤考量更必須要顧及我們官兵的個人權益以及這個人權的保障"},{"start":409.066,"end":420.256,"text":"這個部分我會請我們國防部相關部會應該要對於這個部分來加重來研議辦理。市長我們努力的目標,重要目標我們會努力。好,那謝謝部長、謝謝市長。"}]}},{"id":"151637","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151637","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3b092dae1b49b95a27e796690f3f0abb2eadb1108e4b84432429250ef736007d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:28:57 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您同意我的論點嗎"},{"start":111.977,"end":116.081,"text":"我個人同意好 謝謝秘書長那進入今天的主題我個人認為現在所發生很多司法人員壓力過大那不幸選擇輕生的狀況其實除了是為司法人員來減壓更重要的是也是要正面來提升司法品質"},{"start":133.078,"end":135.139,"text":"我提出了五個建議,很多也不是我的創建,我只是把它歸納。為司法人員減壓,我們需要再做人力的改革。"},{"start":153.291,"end":170.984,"text":"第一大建議,你就要去攬財嘛,對不對?增補司法人力,那你去調整組織元額,我當然支持修法,而雙方政府機關總元額法要修就來修。但是呢,在現有的考試禁用跟多元禁用雙款旗下,我們是不是可以做得更多做得更好,在攬財面?"},{"start":172.365,"end":196.682,"text":"第2個建議是我們是不是可以考慮對於司法人員的待遇是不是能夠做調整來增加人員的留任意願我不曉得你們有沒有研究這個部分我的經驗我長期在教育文化委員會我們今天討論司法人員減壓其實在大學的教授、副教授、助理教授的減壓工作量太大其實都"},{"start":198.396,"end":224.359,"text":"是同樣可以適用這個經驗所以教育部提出了很多為大學的高教的老師提升他的待遇給予他新的誘因比如說我們給予了彈性薪資的方案我們給予其他的研究的補貼都是讓這些現役的教育人員今天在這裡是司法人員增加他的留才的意願我想待遇面也是一個可以考慮的面向 對不對"},{"start":225.27,"end":250.331,"text":"第三個建議．如何來有效解決濫訴的問題．減少案源他跟第四點是相關的．就是落實金字塔型的訴訟制度．來適度調整裁判的費用我稍後來跟您論述細節最後一個．我們現在有的員工這個EAP協助方案．是不是接得住每一個司法人員的具體需求呢五大面向"},{"start":251.232,"end":253.574,"text":"司法人員的出走潮我的辦公室整理這個題目大概花了一個月的時間"},{"start":271.992,"end":292.713,"text":"針對司法院的法院人員近10年的離職統計出走575人法務部的檢察機關人員近10年出走431人加起來司法人員的出走潮是近10年破千人所以我才說剛剛的五大改進方案要趕快來做"},{"start":293.354,"end":310.279,"text":"我們要遇財、攬財、和其困難那你至少留財要做得精準一點可是人才留不住啊司法人員不管是司法院的法官人員或者是我們的法務部主管的檢查機關的人員近十年出走破千人這當然要慎重來因應他下一頁"},{"start":315.273,"end":326.161,"text":"我進一步來看這是你們提供的資料司法人員的缺人荒啊就法官含庭長需求人數這是2024新的數字就缺了499個法官"},{"start":328.208,"end":347.035,"text":"那連同整個輔助人力、司法事務官乃至於你們家事調查官等等司法機關迫切需求緣額表2024年你們需求人力是5536人法官就五百欸這怕死人欸那這是你們提供的資料這是一個嚴重的缺人的警訊嘛好 下一頁"},{"start":356.738,"end":361.06,"text":"那以剛剛那個表來講光法官就欠499人將近500人我再以這20年來我分兩個10年來統計前一個10年2004到2013年法官的增減人數前一個10年只增加301人"},{"start":374.787,"end":388.474,"text":"後一個十年就是2014到現在的2023﹖法官增加的人員變一半捏只增加155人換言之我們的懶財比起前一個十年少了一半"},{"start":389.83,"end":407.865,"text":"所以花20年才能夠補上539人左右可是光法官你現在很珠息就欠被狗爸郎所以換言之你要再補個20年才有可能把它補滿所以剛剛的五大建議五個建議缺一不可"},{"start":408.746,"end":437.678,"text":"我這些背景研究都是再一次分享給大家讓社會好好來面對這一個我們不得不面對的真相為了讓我們的司法品質更好可以攬財可以留財下一頁好那我們來講攬財考試禁用跟多元禁用秘書長你覺得哪一個禁用的這個效益高一點不要講效益啦不要把人力當效益不要把人才當效益但是以他的養成"},{"start":442.567,"end":453.841,"text":"因為時間有限其實真的我們主要來源還是考試禁用考試禁用快七成但是事實上一個考試禁用大概你培育他的人力至少要八年的時間"},{"start":455.441,"end":477.416,"text":"好 你這裡有嘛 對不對之前研習候補期間跟試數期間加起來八檔啦但是多元禁用時間就大幅的減少因為它很多是現役有其他經驗的律師轉任啦 司法人員轉任等等所以多元禁用是一個急佔力下一頁可是問題就在這裡啦考試禁用6乘5"},{"start":478.817,"end":492.473,"text":"你的多元禁用只有3乘5集戰力的補強只有3乘5就代表又回到我剛剛的五大建議了你是不是讓大家不要這麼重的loading然後薪水可以合理一點那個訴訟的這個案源減少一點"},{"start":497.199,"end":512.861,"text":"這都是關鍵所以我們在考試禁用之外多元禁用可不可以給誘因教育部就是這樣幹的我們不只在台灣要讓高教人才從民間攬進來我們還要跟國外攬才所以教育部開啟了很多"},{"start":513.402,"end":513.442,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":542.526,"end":563.861,"text":"好這就案源案量了這剛剛可能很多委員都提到我就講重點平均啊我們每年新收案363萬件其中314萬是民事案件49萬是刑事案件每年的新收案還不管他的手上的未結案件平均每一位法官我是扣除最高法院的法官跟院長哦"},{"start":564.722,"end":584.15,"text":"平均每位法官是1比1665就一個人手上的新收案件加未結案件一個人要搞1665件至少這樣壓力不大才怪我不想跳槽才怪我不想出走才怪這都是問題所以如何減少案源呢下一頁"},{"start":586.02,"end":598.549,"text":"這個我也是去調查才了解我真的是司法法制委員的菜鳥我能做的就是不斷的去研究找資料這是我看到的民事訴訟裁判費的基準收費基準21年沒有調秘書長21年沒有調對不對"},{"start":602.714,"end":624.144,"text":"所以現在這個訴訟的成本就假啦非財產案件第一審只要三千塊第二三審只要交四千五百塊財產類的這個民事訴訟的裁判費的試算我這裡都試算出來了他依不同的這個訴訟標的金額標的金額所以這21年沒有改這能不能調整啊這個我們民事我們會研議來要不然大家覺得"},{"start":633.51,"end":640.216,"text":"走法院成本很低我就隨便告我今天看中嘉賓不太開心我就"},{"start":644.211,"end":664.517,"text":"委員這部分我們會研議調整但是因為訴訟費用的徵收跟法律輔助是相結合對我懂我懂這是要連帶去思考但是如果以一個21年沒有調整我也一併提供給你們思考看看好嗎好我進到最後一下"},{"start":665.217,"end":689.737,"text":"我剛講的流財、育財、懶財是前端、最後端心理健康的關懷方案我很快把我觀察到的問題分享給你們這裡包括法務部也有法務部那個問題更大法院、司法院確實有心理健康關懷方案每一個人最高補助每次2500塊一年最多可以看8次你如果有特殊需求可以去看12次的心理諮商非常好可是只有法官"},{"start":690.638,"end":704.134,"text":"法官優先沒有你如果是司法事務官、書記官、法官助理跟其他職工如果需要去試用的話需要向他該庭的院長申請右邊這個是你們的協助方案的公告"},{"start":705.703,"end":731.461,"text":"對,報告委員,就是說這個部分所有的人員都適用確定?確定,好那你去檢視我所知道的法官是優於去適用的其他非法官的身份是比較困難的,沒關係這個是我調查到的,是你們內部的人告訴我的好不好,這司法院,下一個部長,對不起下一頁,最後一頁部長,剛剛法院有心理健康關懷方案檢察官沒有"},{"start":735.134,"end":760.184,"text":"法務部也有有有一個員工協助方案就是上面的協助方案可是沒有跟剛剛司法官一樣去藉助外部的心理諮商我都列出來了這個也可以運用外部的諮商但Friendly跟效能上有差啦是我們一起來研究一下讓他做得更好好嗎好不好做得更好好嗎謝謝主席多給我時間因為這一題太重大了那五大建議兩個月內給我一個精進的報告好謝謝辛苦了謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151636","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151636","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3057be6f79f11e5be7e796690f3f0abb2eadb1108e4b84432bcf9929a4b2f71515ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"10:17:08 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謝謝主席那有請我們吳秘書長跟蔡部長請吳秘書長跟蔡部長"},{"start":34.363,"end":58.8,"text":"好 秘書長、蔡部長 早辛苦了喔好 我想我們今天就這個司法體系透過這個行政簡化、訴訟減量還有我們這個科技運用來降低基層司法人員負擔作為一個專題的討論那我想在兩週前所發生的這個法官墜樓的事件"},{"start":59.941,"end":79.871,"text":"令社會各界感到非常的萬喜其中我們看到李法官在生前曾經向他的妻子表達我很累的這種心聲那顯示法官長期在這種高工時高壓力的環境工作下也讓我們再一次聚焦司法官過勞和司法體系負荷過重的這個問題"},{"start":81.252,"end":95.423,"text":"那本席在上週質詢我們司法院陳廳長的時候曾經詢問過他的工作壓力大不大啦齁那廳長以過來人的這個身份也表達了這個法官壓力確實是非常的大"},{"start":96.468,"end":124.694,"text":"而我很累這個三個字也是目前所有法官的一個共同心聲那從這個憾事發生之後我們看到司法院在4月17號召開檢討會議其中作成一項決議參酌合法工時研議法官的這個合理結案量那我想請教秘書長您認為對法官來講合法的這種工時是多長合理的結案量又是多少"},{"start":127.165,"end":134.376,"text":"那假如通常是能夠在上班時間之內來做,來服務,通常是這樣,那至於說"},{"start":141.693,"end":159.654,"text":"在這個合理結案量我們內部正在明天就會召集一個一二三省包括法官協會的這個有關同仁啊一起來研究看一二三省的合理結案量到底多少"},{"start":159.974,"end":183.669,"text":"好 秘書長您還是比較主張就是能夠遵循我們這個公務員服務法第12條這個每日辦公的時數8個小時那每週辦公總時數不超過40小時那應該也要40的這個週休二日我相信應該是這個目標可是我看起來目前應該是都沒辦法達成還是很難很難"},{"start":186.611,"end":213.888,"text":"委員對不起報告委員其實我們司法院有定一個辦公時數規則就是完全遵循委員剛剛提示的那個公務員服務法的那個工時限制那因為我們的法官工作真的繁重加上社會期待高自我期許也高所以法官真的基於責任感都會自發性的在加班導致工時延長要不然就法規的架構而言我們都其實都有規定法定的辦公時數以外你再怎麼加班也不能夠超過每個月70小時好"},{"start":215.109,"end":219.97,"text":"那從我們司法院的統計數據來看光是我們地方法院新收的這種各類的案件每年都在增加逐年增加到112年已經超過360萬件"},{"start":242.515,"end":262.551,"text":"那法官每天都在追著案件跑面對眼前海量的這種案件每天的工作時間恐怕都超過十幾個小時那假日也幾乎都沒辦法正常的休假都在加班不只是這樣造成心理壓力的過大也會嚴重影響到這個法官的健康"},{"start":263.325,"end":292.59,"text":"那減輕法官的這個工作負擔作為我們司法院司法改革的一個重點本席也曾經在第一次質詢的時候請教過秘書長秘書長當時答覆因為我們這個人力不足所以希望在原額上面能夠多加幫忙但是我想除了增補人力之外在分案上、程序上還有管考制度上應該都還有調整和改善的空間那也有一期檢討的這個必要性"},{"start":293.07,"end":309.022,"text":"司法院開完這個檢討會議也不應該只停留在研議或是期盼那我想請教秘書長對於減輕法官的這個工作負擔的目標究竟何時能夠提出具體的改善措施有沒有規劃改善的這個時間表"},{"start":310.443,"end":326.73,"text":"我們就是在一個內之內會呼應法官協會他提出來的就包括這個有關合理的結案還有就是說一些嚴考部分還有辦案期限要著量延長這樣"},{"start":334.592,"end":347.107,"text":"那不只法官,基層的司法人員的處境也是應該要被受到尊重另外我們看到苗栗的地院有書記官,疑是因為過勞而不幸病逝"},{"start":347.768,"end":373.741,"text":"那書記官的職責是將法官檢察官的工作予以書面格式化那書記官們在處理繁雜的這個行政文書工作現在也受到案件量暴增的這個影響每天處在水深火熱當中甚至導致身體出了狀況那我想請教秘書長對於書記官的過勞以及如何來改善書記官的勞動環境司法院有沒有相關的這個檢討"},{"start":375.287,"end":378.768,"text":"我們這一部分當然就是說會齊頭並進關於人力部分當然我們會盡量來請行政部門、人總部門來協助內部我們也會盡量就是說"},{"start":397.619,"end":397.639,"text":"好．"},{"start":413.453,"end":428.578,"text":"那如果我們從人員上來看書記官似乎還有難以留才的這個問題我們從近幾年的這個數據上四等法院書記官的缺額是越來越開越多了錄取率也幾乎暴增"},{"start":429.258,"end":432.362,"text":"司法院是否有掌握同仁離職的實際原因並擬定相應的流財措施?"},{"start":449.152,"end":472.759,"text":"我跟委員報告我們每一個同仁不是只有書記官司法人員離職我們都會做離職原因的調查然後來彙整並且檢討改進然後我們書記官的問題就是司法人員最大的問題是他有很多核心工作不是一般的非限職人員可以取代跟行政機關不一樣"},{"start":473.379,"end":502.358,"text":"像我們的很多的像書機關開庭打筆錄這件事情還有在筆錄上簽名這種都是具有訴訟法上效力的就沒有辦法用一般的就是所謂職務代理人或者是說非限職人員委外人力來取代所以現在問題在核心人力沒辦法取代所以為什麼我們一直拜託說要爭取中央機關總原額的提高因為這個法官增加輔助人力就要加兩倍所以等於一個法官增加要乘以三倍的原額如果原額不增加的話那司法機關真的沒有辦法再"},{"start":503.658,"end":520.383,"text":"我們還是希望我們司法院能夠這個更加來重視我們基層司法人員的這個處境並且能夠加以善加來改善我們讓我們所有的人才可以留在"},{"start":520.903,"end":538.855,"text":"司法體系當中來服務那也讓這個同仁在合理工作中負擔合理的工作量才是長久之計另外我想我們剛剛有談到這個原額的部分我想從過去的討論當中不管是司法院還是法務部都有共同一個點就是人力不足"},{"start":539.235,"end":563.693,"text":"那希望增加人力的部分從現行的總額、元額來看屬於第三類的司法院及所屬機關元額最高為15000人作為第四類的這個法務部所屬的這個檢查機關則為6900人那未來如果要再增加元額我想請教秘書長我們這個人事總署是否會支持"},{"start":566.968,"end":587.84,"text":"目前我們當然盡力就請他們來協助但是我覺得我還是很期盼就是說可能要一起來面對這種問題因為關於人民的司法受益錢這個是整個政府應該要一起去面對的"},{"start":589.847,"end":617.309,"text":"那當然也有另外有提出限量婚案的這種聲音但是我們會覺得這個不管怎樣司法受益前這個要政府我們全體有關的相關政府機關應該要共同來面對共同面對這個一定要一起克服不是只有我們我們司法部門的責任好 謝謝秘書長那我同時也請教我們部長那對於我們法務部的部分我們原額增加的部分"},{"start":617.757,"end":646.059,"text":"是否也會受到我們這個人事總署的這個支持謝謝委員關心那法務部所屬的機關尤其是檢查機關人力不足確實也是存在的那我們現在檢查機關的法定員額是6900位那目前剩下的只剩下286位的員額而已事實上也是缺乏要再增加總員法能夠修正提高所以我們也會努力的來爭取"},{"start":648.624,"end":671.418,"text":"所以那對於我們這個司法院還有法務部的這個人力配置和運用我們都予以尊重那由於人力的不可能無限制的這種補充重點還是極大化原額運用的這種效益那配合有效減輕負荷的這種措施讓司法人員的壓力能夠確實得到舒緩我相信這才是我們要"},{"start":671.718,"end":671.758,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151635","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151635","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3ca1adf492741ae77a8d86c0863c2f2caeadb1108e4b84432d3278c9c8236d1465ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"10:30:46 - 10:42:19","影片長度":"00:11:33","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案。\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員黃建賓等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-9"},"duration":693,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:42:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:30:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":376,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（10時30分）謝謝主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，剛剛本席也針對工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條以及第三十九條，強化工廠負責人的申報、督導、管理，以及接受調查的責任，以利主管機關在稽查管理的時候能夠更加的落實，那你支持嗎？"],["王部長美花：支持。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那我們希望明天在討論的時候也要全力支持，儘快讓它通過，以維護有3層的關係，這個關係很重要，第一個就是要搶救的消防人員以及救災人員能夠得到比較安全的一個保障；第二個，也針對於負責人，讓他能夠落實來做申報，也等於是保障他的財產；第三個也就是整個社會大眾都會更加的安心，要不然周邊發生的時候，這是太恐怖的一件事情，你們3位都頻頻點頭，我們也希望明天就能夠趕快討論完成出委員會，我也謝謝你對本席提案的支持。"],["王部長美花：也謝謝委員的支持。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。接下來本席要請教的是AI技術的發展到這樣的一個情況之下，我們看到2025年非核家園的計畫，這是你們的計畫，但是我們看到台積電也開始積極規劃保障它的電力，而且美國智庫詹姆斯敦基金會也說，台積電在日本熊本設廠，原因就在於臺灣的電力不足。你贊成這句話的說法嗎？"],["王部長美花：沒有關係，台積電到日本去有它的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你贊成嗎？不是沒有關係，你針對本席的提問，不要再情緒發言。針對本席的提問，也就是美國智庫詹姆斯敦基金會提出這樣的論點，說台積電在日本熊本設廠，原因就在於臺灣的電力不足，你會認同這句話嗎？"],["王部長美花：我不認同。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不認同！對啊，你要說啊，你現在是經濟部長，你要站在我們國家的立場嘛！國際間給你這樣的訊息，沒有的事情，你要提出你的立場嘛，對不對？好，你既然不認同，那麼請教，我們要怎麼樣去面對AI發展的趨勢？它非常的加速，那你的能源，人家已經有給你這樣子的一個訊息跟警戒，也就是有嚴重短缺的情況，你要怎麼處理？"],["王部長美花：事實上，我們對AI的走向還有AI的用電需求都有很緊密在觀察，AI在發展大模型訓練模型的時候，它確實要用很多電力，但是對臺灣來講……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要怎麼應對？"],["王部長美花：但是對臺灣來講，臺灣其實不適合發行那一種大模型AI訓練模型，臺灣應該針對專業的使用，用小模型的部分來做AI的應用。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長，你暫停你的發言，你這樣子會唱衰臺灣，你暫停你的發言，不是你可以決定整個產業的未來走向。"],["王部長美花：沒有，這個是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：臺灣不適合什麼？臺灣什麼都適合！就看我們怎麼去精進，對不對？"],["王部長美花：這個是跨部會討論的時候……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，你部長不要自己說臺灣沒有這樣的發展，不好！所以我趕快制止你的講話，不要這樣子說，對不對？臺灣的經濟是非常nice的，我們各方面大家團結力量，尤其我們的產業界，大家能力都超強的，好不好？不要再有這種情緒性的發言。","接下來本席要請問你，你會贊成核二、核三在他們條件OK的情況之下，有可能會延役嗎？因為之前本席在一樣這個場合問過你，你告訴我目前沒有這樣的方向，目前為止不管415的電的問題，或者是有限電、跳電，還不到限電，是跳電，或者是停電這樣的情況，民眾當然憂心，有沒有可能從根源將核二、核三廠延役？有沒有可能？"],["王部長美花：我想兩件事，一個是因為意外造成機組故障，或者平常的機組設備壞掉，這是一件事情，這個跟有沒有核電，坦白講是沒有關係的。至於委員提到……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不同意這樣的說法，因為明明白白已經是機械壞掉，天然的災害──地震影響到我們，415的問題，你都告訴我們是因為地震，我們都接受，民眾只要穩定供電，這是我們一直在找的，只要有機會。所以本席再強調，再請問，有沒有可能核二、核三會延役？"],["王部長美花：我想核二和核三的部分，立法院有相關的提案，委員有主張，我們都尊重。我想核電的延役……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你尊重，但是能不能執行，所以本席要請問你的論述、你的論點，可不可能？"],["王部長美花：執行的部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可不可能？"],["王部長美花：我想就經濟部的部分，應該是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：只要願意做，執行面絕對沒有問題，只要願意做，執行面沒問題啊！你該修就修，對不對？"],["王部長美花：核電的安全重要性絕對不是這樣的講法，核電的安全……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：絕對不是這樣子的講法，但是我們現在在執行中，你如果這樣的說法，表示我們現在是不安全的啊！"],["王部長美花：不是，委員說它要不要延役、它能不能延役……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：是。"],["王部長美花：延役要不要經過什麼樣的安全檢查……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然要專家學者專案來討論嘛！"],["王部長美花：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請教有沒有可能？"],["王部長美花：這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會不會朝這個方向去研議？會不會？"],["王部長美花：這個部分當然是要討論的問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會去討論？"],["王部長美花：不是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會去討論？"],["王部長美花：委員講的延役要討論的問題，包括後端的核廢料……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，會不會討論？"],["王部長美花：這個部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教，會不會討論？"],["王部長美花：委員，我知道國民黨有相關的提案，我們尊重。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：國民黨有相關的提案，你會不會尊重去討論？"],["王部長美花：我們都尊重。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：尊重，會不會討論？"],["王部長美花：委員的提案到立法院來，立法院當然就會討論啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：會討論喔，那你也同意討論？"],["王部長美花：行政部門當然要尊重立法院的職權。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你也同意討論嘛，是嗎？尊重職權，本席感謝你。"],["王部長美花：立法院有相關的法案，我們當然要出席。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以既然社會大眾有這樣的方向，我覺得一個有為的政府，任何的方向都可以去討論，同不同意這樣的論點？"],["王部長美花：立法院相關提案，當然我們都要來立法院跟立法委員討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要好好討論喔，好，朝這個方向去討論，看結果怎麼樣再告訴社會大眾。","所以本席要再請教，我們看到中油董事長在4月19號告訴我們，天然氣是明顯在上揚，油價還好，現在87美元，但是本席要請教，今年1月到3月，LNG的部分，我們總共吸收了107億元，汽油的部分是29億元，柴油的部分吸收了25億元，液化石油氣LPG的部分是36億元，總共累計是197億元。所以在這邊請教部長，中油董事長提出這樣子，我們去年的稅前虧損是180億元，所以要請教，等於如果吸收這個部分是打平，目前我們維持打平的看法跟想法，你有可能還會調漲油、氣價格嗎？會不會？因為有人說9月份就要調，我們都很緊張，不能再調了，所以現在立法院也有一個提案，4月份你調了，4月1號的電價，9月份就不能調了，那也包括油。請教部長。"],["王部長美花：油目前……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：現在是打平，我們現在是打平，是嗎？"],["王部長美花：現在沒有打平，現在中油確實都在吸收相關的成本。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊，就吸收嘛！"],["王部長美花：它沒有打平，這個部分都還……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以告訴你197億，去年統計的稅後虧損是180億，那幾乎是打平，我們是不是朝這個方向？"],["王部長美花：它沒有打平。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不能再漲，對不對？"],["王部長美花：相關的油就有平穩機制在做，目前的部分，上一次委員問到民生用的桶裝瓦斯……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：瓦斯不能漲，這個我感謝你。"],["王部長美花：這個我們也有承認到6月底之前……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，瓦斯影響到民生，不能漲嘛！"],["王部長美花：到6月底之前我們也都沒有漲。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，很好。"],["王部長美花：我們上一次已經講了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以就朝這個方向啦！我們如果可以打平，不能漲、不能漲。"],["王部長美花：它沒有打平，事實上它都還在吸收虧損。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為民生你要好好的去維護，要不然影響會更大。"],["王部長美花：有，我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：當然，我們全力支持中油，但是務必要審慎，好嗎？這個非常重要。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個議題，上次415本席要求的資料，當天下午拿不到，隔天早上拿到訊息，大概是2,400億，但是你們……"],["王部長美花：2,400萬。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：2,400萬。你們又有一個訊息說平均1度是5塊1，不要這樣粉飾太平，也不要這樣欺負老百姓，因為很清楚，你們這一次動用到的是180萬度，這個180萬度裡頭，最重要的需量反應措施，包括基本上8塊、10塊，最後還有一道防線，也就是緊急狀況可以再加2成，就是12塊，所以在需量反應制度裡頭的8塊、10塊跟12塊，你總共花了1,869萬元，對不對？所以本席也希望，當然不能缺電，大家怎麼共同去研討，但是本席告訴你這個數字，也就是說不要再去粉飾太平，明明白白需量反應措施就已經花了1,869萬，就不要再告訴民眾說這一天的平均值是5.1塊，不要這樣粉飾太平，這樣是解決不了問題的。"],["王部長美花：我們沒有粉飾太平啦！在急的時候、有意外、地震造成的部分，有這樣一個需量制度其實是一個非常好的機制。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對呀！這個行之已久，那你為什麼還要去告訴民眾說4月15日平均只有5.1塊，不是這樣子的嘛！"],["王部長美花：那一天確實是這樣子。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你1,869萬就是用8塊、10塊、12塊嘛，對不對？"],["王部長美花：那一天總的買的價錢就是長這個樣子，就是給委員這個表的問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是長這個樣子，實際上就是這個數字。"],["王部長美花：是啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席只是告訴你要把真實的事情告訴社會大眾。"],["王部長美花：我們都是最真實的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：大家才能夠共體時艱嘛，好不好？謝謝。"],["王部長美花：是，我們都是最真實的。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","接下來我們請賴瑞隆委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-9","speakers":["邱議瑩","黃建賓","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林思銘","林岱樺","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","鄭正鈐","謝衣鳯","蔡易餘","何欣純","黃國昌","洪孟楷","黃捷","羅智強","牛煦庭","陳超明","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷","王美惠"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等 21案；二、審查：\n(一)行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(二)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員\n黃建賓等 17 人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案、(六)\n本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員蔡易\n餘等20 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責任務及負責任務及負責任務及"},{"start":69.202,"end":86.57,"text":"第三個也就是整個社會大眾都會更加的安心要不然周邊發生的時候就是太恐怖的一個事情你們三位都頻頻點頭我們也希望明天就趕快進能夠討論完成初委員會我也謝謝你對本席的提案的一個支持"},{"start":88.131,"end":89.632,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查〈工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條"},{"start":106.784,"end":111.45,"text":"而且美國智庫呢他也說了這個基金會他自己也說了台積電在日本雄本的設廠原因就在於台灣的電力不足你贊成這一句話的說法嗎"},{"start":122.943,"end":145.14,"text":"沒有關係,台積電到日本去……你贊成嗎?這是沒有關係你針對本席的提問不要再情緒發言針對本席的提問也就是美國智庫和詹姆士頓的基金會他們提出這樣的論點說台積電在日本雄本的設廠原因就在於台灣的電力不足你會認同這一句話嗎?"},{"start":146.761,"end":149.784,"text":"國際間給你這樣的訊息不要的事你要提出你的立場嘛對不對好你既然不認同那麼請教我們要怎麼樣去面對AI發展的趨勢他非常的加速"},{"start":169.383,"end":178.98,"text":"那你的能源這個人家已經有給你這樣子的一個訊息跟警戒也就是有嚴重的短缺的情況你要怎麼處理"},{"start":180.509,"end":195.381,"text":"實際上我們對AI的走向還有AI的用電需求我們這個都有很緊密在觀察那AI在發展大模型的訓練模型的時候它確實要用很多的電力但是對台灣來講台灣其實不適合去發行那一種大模型的這個AI訓練模型台灣應該針對專業的這個專業的使用用小模型的這個部分來做你暫停你的發言"},{"start":209.873,"end":210.773,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":228.559,"end":229.86,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":249.748,"end":267.87,"text":"暫程合二合三在他們條件OK的情況之下有可能會研議嗎?因為之前本席在一樣這個場合問過你那您告訴我是目前沒有這樣的方向那目前為止不管415這個電的問題或者是有限電跳電"},{"start":269.466,"end":280.307,"text":"還不到限電是跳電或者是停電這樣的情況那民眾當然憂心有沒有可能從根源將合二合三場會研議有沒有可能"},{"start":281.014,"end":308.915,"text":"我認為兩件事,一個就是因為意外造成的這樣的一個機組故障或者平常這個機組的這個設備壞掉這是一件事情那這個跟有沒有核電坦白講是沒有關係的那至於委員提到的不同意這樣的說法因為你明明白白已經機械壞掉天然的災害影響到我們地震四一五你都告訴我們是因為地震那我們都接受只要民眾要怎麼樣穩定供電"},{"start":310.436,"end":318.141,"text":"就是我們一直在找只要有機會那麼所以本席再強調再請問有沒有可能合二合三會研議"},{"start":319.938,"end":325.582,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":345.214,"end":349.738,"text":"核電的安全重要性,絕對不是這樣的講法,絕對不是這樣的講法,但是我們現在在執行中啊,你如果這種說法表示我們現在是不安全的,當然要專家學者專案來討論嘛,所以本校請教有沒有可能"},{"start":370.793,"end":384.979,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查一、二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案的內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其內容及其"},{"start":392.302,"end":393.742,"text":"三項提案你會不會尊重去討論?尊重會不會討論?會討論那你也同意討論?所以你也同意討論嗎?是嗎?"},{"start":411.171,"end":416.675,"text":"立法院有相關的法案立法院有相關的法案立法院有相關的法案立法院有相關的法案立法院有相關的法案"},{"start":439.66,"end":454.185,"text":"這一個中油董事長在4月19號才告訴我們天然氣是明顯的在上揚,油價還好,現在51塊美金。但是本校要請教,今年1月到3月LNG的部分我們總共吸收了107億元。"},{"start":455.845,"end":456.305,"text":"工廠管理輔導 工廠管理輔導 工廠管理輔導"},{"start":484.062,"end":486.025,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會議中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算"},{"start":496.823,"end":498.465,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":516.341,"end":516.701,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查：一、處理或審查"},{"start":534.392,"end":562.517,"text":"相關的由就有平穩機制就平穩機制在做那目前的部分上一次委員問到這個民生用的這個桶裝瓦斯這個我們也有承認說到六月底之前到六月底之前我們也都沒有漲是我們上一次已經講了所以就朝這個方向啦我們如果可以打平不能去不能去因為民生你要好好的好好的去維護要不然影響會更大"},{"start":563.237,"end":564.898,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21案"},{"start":581.303,"end":596.37,"text":"但是你們又有一個訊息告訴我們說2400萬你們又有一個訊息說平均一度是五塊一不要這樣粉飾太平也不要這樣欺負老百姓因為很清楚你們這一次動用到的是180萬度"},{"start":599.252,"end":611.001,"text":"這1800000度裡頭你最重要的需量反應措施需量反應措施你包括基本上8塊10塊最後還有一道防線也就是可以在緊急狀況可以再加兩層12塊12塊所以你在需量反應制度裡頭的8塊10塊跟12塊你總共花了1869萬元"},{"start":623.032,"end":623.292,"text":"本院委員黃捷等17人擬具:「工廠管理輔導"},{"start":645.629,"end":656.572,"text":"條文修正草案．一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案．一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及三十一條條文修正草案．一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及三十一條條條文修正草案．一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及三十一條條條文"},{"start":671.736,"end":686.653,"text":"貸款價就是長這個樣子就是給委員這個表的問題不是長這個樣子是實際上就是這個數字我只是告訴你本席要求告訴你我們就把真實的事情告訴社會黨大家才能夠共體時間好不好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151634","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151634","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3332c069e788889c26abc9c09ba589754eadb1108e4b84432730f4a040805aad55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:35:01 - 10:41:24","影片長度":"00:06:23","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":383,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:41:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:35:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":487,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時34分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長好。今天我們討論國籍法的修法，有兩個重點，一個是第五條裡面針對特殊的專業人才兩年就可以申請歸化，來為我們臺灣爭取更好的人才。我相信各黨、各派其實都有提出版本，我覺得這個沒有什麼問題，因為大家的差別並不大。接下來的這個，我覺得應該要仔細來討論一下，就是第四條裡面的黑戶寶寶問題，因為現在的黑戶寶寶大概有四種類型，第一種就是生父、生母都不知道是誰，這個其實反而比較好處理，這部分剛剛巧慧委員也有提到，這就是所謂的棄嬰嘛！如果是棄嬰，其實國籍是可以準用的，這個反而沒有什麼問題。第二種，如果他的生母是外國人，但生父是臺灣人，這是一種情況。其他兩種情況，一個是生母是外國人，但是行蹤不明，或是他已經出境或遣返了，然後生父不知道是誰；還有一種情況是生母是外國人，然後生父不清楚是不是外國人。","接下來這四種情況我去看了一下，其實我會覺得比較弔詭的是，如果生父、生母都不詳的話，我們是有空間來處理的，就是現行法規就可以處理。可是另外一種，第二種就是剛剛所提到的，如果生母是單身，生父就可以辦理認領，然後讓小孩來取得臺灣的國籍，也就是如果生父願意出面，其實也是可以處理的。這一次我們修法要討論的反而是第三、第四種，就是如果生母行蹤不明，然後境內、境外協尋之後，生母的原屬國表示小孩不是他們國籍或是三個月都沒有回應，就認定小孩是無國籍人士。","可是現在我覺得擔心的是有一種狀況，我們在修法之後會不會造成，等於是反而鼓勵生母行蹤不明，或者是鼓勵他跟小孩斷絕聯絡，為什麼會這樣說呢？也就是剛剛講到的第一種可能，如果生父、生母不詳的話，我們就可以用棄嬰的狀況來處理。依照現行的國籍法，在臺灣的外國人或是無國籍的小孩，現在的歸化條件是要成年，而且有相當的財產跟專業技能，可以自立，生活保障無虞才能申請歸化。若我們現在這樣放寬之後，就是社福機構監護，只要在生母行蹤不明之下就可以來歸化，我擔心的就是剛剛提到的，也就是現在他的生母找得到人，但是生父不詳的這種類型並沒有處理到，會不會變成有點變相的鼓勵生母故意消失，會不會反而造成我們想要放寬的這個用意去損害到子女的最佳利益呢？我不知道部長懂不懂我的意思，就是我們現在放寬，反而有一個bug，就是會有一種道德風險，如果生母故意消失，然後故意行蹤不明，我們反而可以去讓小孩來歸化，這對於生母來說，那就是不要讓你們找到他，他消失就好了，會變成生母的消失對於小孩的歸化是更有利的，會不會變成這樣？這是我擔心的。"],["林部長右昌：我瞭解委員的意思……"],["黃委員捷：擔憂。"],["林部長右昌：也就是變成他故意消失，去製造他……"],["黃委員捷：讓小孩可以有歸化的機會。"],["林部長右昌：可歸化的理由，這個是不是容許我們想一下？剛才你講的這個狀況，不過如果他是在臺灣出生的話，現在都會有紀錄，會知道他的生母是誰，但是你剛剛提到他故意消失，找不到人，去製造他跟這個小孩子沒有連結，我想這個我們來想一下，的確可能會有這樣子的狀況，我瞭解委員的意思，有一個道德風險在裡面，製造一個故意的……"],["黃委員捷：對，因為這樣對他來說，歸化條件才存在，這是我的擔心啦！當然我們也不會去惡意地說生母都會這樣想，只是當我們條件列在那邊的時候，這樣的條件反而讓小孩更容易歸化。"],["林部長右昌：是，委員，我是不是請司長補充一下？"],["黃委員捷：好。"],["陳代理司長子和：跟委員報告，針對這種黑戶寶寶，其實我們有一連串的認定程序，首先，這個人要父不詳，生母為外國人，這是第一個條件。第二個，要經過駐外館處去請那個國家協尋3個月，或者是這個生母還在國內，要經過我們移民署去協尋6個月，直到都找不到了，這是第二階段。第三階段，還要原屬國的國家不承認這個小孩子具有它的國籍，或者是它3個月都沒有回復的時候，地方政府才會把這種黑戶寶寶的個案報給我們來認定他為無國籍人，現在的程序是滿嚴謹的。"],["林部長右昌：委員，我瞭解你的想法，因為說實在的，我們移民署在茫茫人海中要去找人，也不一定真的找得到，因為實際上我們也發現移工或者是非法拘留的，那個時間很長。"],["黃委員捷：是。"],["林部長右昌：你剛剛提醒的這個部分，我想我們回去會來研議，謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長。最後，國土署的署長，我想要提醒一下，我們有一個案子之前已經追很久了，就是樓梯升降椅的案子，我希望後續的資料趕快送過來，我們已經要超久了，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃捷委員、謝謝部長、謝謝署長。","接下來我們請黃建賓委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-14","speakers":["吳琪銘","莊瑞雄","羅美玲","陳玉珍","黃捷","陳培瑜","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","吳沛憶","王美惠","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","李柏毅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","黃國昌","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳菁徽","陳冠廷","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案；二、審查內政\n部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)\n行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六\n條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國\n籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員\n林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員莊\n瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案、 (十五)委員林岱樺等\n17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四\n條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.5834687500000002,"end":2.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.32596875,"end":114.62909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.98346875,"end":132.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.17471875,"end":163.83659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.64659375000002,"end":187.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.27159375000002,"end":214.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.80909375000002,"end":204.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.82596875000002,"end":204.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.87659375,"end":204.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.11096875,"end":229.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.33409375000002,"end":220.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.46409375000002,"end":227.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.69159375,"end":227.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.21034375000002,"end":229.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.34534375,"end":229.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.42971875,"end":229.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.54346875000002,"end":243.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.02659375000002,"end":244.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.22471875000002,"end":252.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.37534375,"end":253.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.96596875000003,"end":262.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.29846875000004,"end":261.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.15034375,"end":264.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.20096875,"end":262.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.75721875,"end":278.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.65409375,"end":279.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.29534375000003,"end":281.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.18471875,"end":292.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.18346875000003,"end":295.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.68096875000003,"end":300.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.06846875,"end":301.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.66721875,"end":308.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.62409375000004,"end":314.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.66159375,"end":311.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.60659375,"end":312.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.17159375,"end":316.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.44971875000005,"end":323.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.52471875000003,"end":328.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.34659375,"end":332.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.83534375000005,"end":342.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.15471875000003,"end":352.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.27971875000003,"end":352.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.29659375,"end":352.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.38096875,"end":352.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.41471875,"end":352.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.43159375000005,"end":357.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.60034375000004,"end":352.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.63409375000003,"end":352.70159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.08909375,"end":371.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.61409375000005,"end":373.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.50846875,"end":375.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.27596875,"end":377.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.87909375000004,"end":380.64659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.175,"end":20.773,"text":"今天我們討論這個國籍法的修法有兩個重點一個是第5條裡面針對特殊的專業人才兩年就可以申請規劃來為我們台灣爭取更好的人才我相信這個各黨各派其實都有提出版本我覺得這個沒有什麼問題因為大家的差別並不大"},{"start":21.735,"end":27.422,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":37.313,"end":40.935,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":63.607,"end":65.51,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":79.651,"end":84.614,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":101.164,"end":105.265,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":121.229,"end":126.594,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":142.87,"end":152.174,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。五、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。六、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。"},{"start":164.74,"end":172.889,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":188.325,"end":193.867,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":217.23,"end":242.462,"text":"是,我了解委員的意思,就是說他變成是說這邊他故意消失去製造他可規劃的這個理由。這個是不是容許我們想一下,因為他雖然是,剛剛你在講的這個狀況,不過如果他是在台灣出生的話,他都會有,現在都會有紀錄,也知道他生母是誰。"},{"start":244.416,"end":245.617,"text":"規劃條件才存在。"},{"start":266.807,"end":268.628,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":285.279,"end":300.885,"text":"委員報告針對這種黑戶寶寶其實我們有一連串的那個認定的程序是首先要這個這一個人要是父不祥生母為外國人這個是第一個條件第二個要經過"},{"start":302.728,"end":324.881,"text":"住外管處請國家諧巡3個月,或者是生母還在國內要經過移民署諧巡6個月都找不到了。這是第二階段。第三階段就是還要原屬國的國家不承認這個小孩子具有他的國籍,或者是他3個月都沒有回復的時候,地方政府才會把這種黑戶寶寶的個案報給我們來認定他為"},{"start":329.403,"end":344.436,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":357.547,"end":357.707,"text":"黃建斌委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"151633","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151633","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3fc21f7df99e6ea6eb903698ddfaa754aeadb1108e4b844328f8f6e905f7449da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"10:29:36 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10:40:06","影片長度":"00:10:30","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":630,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:40:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:29:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":559,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（10時29分）好，謝謝主席，再麻煩請我們薛部長。"],["主席：有請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：薛部長，先請教一下，2020年1月21號開始的COVID-19新冠疫情，因為有很多民眾想瞭解一下，就是現在疫情指揮中心已經解編了，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["涂委員權吉：那我們現在的情況，新冠疫情的時代算是正式結束了嗎？還是還有在管制、處理，還是怎麼樣？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前因為COVID-19這一支病毒經過演化之後，現在有的這一些類型，它的致重症率已經是相當的低，所以我們就把它從第五類的傳染病，降到現在應該是屬於第四類，也就是說它不再是一個有重大健康威脅的一個傳染病，但是它仍然是一個傳染病，所以我們每年仍然要去注意到它的流行狀況，疫苗施打方面也必須要持續。"],["涂委員權吉：所以基本上其實它還沒有結束，只是把它……"],["薛部長瑞元：它不會結束。"],["涂委員權吉：對，不會結束嘛！變成一般性的傳染病。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，像流感那些。"],["涂委員權吉：所以沒有結束的問題？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["涂委員權吉：好。還有我們4月15號有請衛福部針對818天停止解析這一部分提出說明，後來我們有看一下，就是針對兒少性剝削防制條例第八條，那時候你們說因為是在112年2月15號修法，所以我也看了一下，它在修改之前的差別，刑事司法上的執法行為就是要由刑事司法才能去執法，後來修法之後，才有給行政機關行政作為的空間，也就是衛福部從那個時候才有法源依據去處理違反兒虐性影像的網站停止解析，是這樣嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["涂委員權吉：好，那我們想瞭解說，就算沒有818天，可是如果從112年2月15號修法，那也有420天的時間，為什麼那個時候沒有辦法去做？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分的話，其實所謂把它封網這件事情，仍然是有兩類，一類是在法務部偵查的過程當中，他會主動去扣押，把證據保留，以這樣子的動作去做。第八條修法之後衛福部基於兒少保護的情形之下，也可以去做，但是我們那個時候是把這個程序訂在施行細則裡面，怎麼樣去做這件事情，所以變成動作會比較冗長一點。"],["涂委員權吉：我們不瞭解的是到底是什麼原因？是因為在那種情況下我們衛福部不知情？還是什麼情況下不能去處理？而且據我們瞭解，後來你們在今年4月10號停止解析，也是用兒少性剝削防制條例的第七條跟性侵害犯罪防治法的第九條，以及行政執行法的第三十六條，函請數發部去停止解析，看起來跟第八條修法好像也沒有關係啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：因為去年修法之後，它的情形是這個樣子，第一個，我們必須要有民眾的申訴，民眾申訴下來之後才能夠啟動那個流程，我們並沒有權，目前也還沒有什麼權可以普遍性地去主動做網路的搜尋。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我在想，是不是像這樣的事情如果沒有民眾申訴、沒有民眾檢舉，那這個網站的犯罪影像一直在外面散播、傳送，難道衛福部沒有一些機制主動去知道並處理嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我們這次修法就是希望法律授權我們有這樣的機制來做這件事情。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們就是希望凸顯到底問題在哪裡，為什麼這個事情一直發生？從前面檢察官起訴，到後面一審定讞，我不知道我們到底在等什麼衛福部才有機會去處理這樣子的事情。"],["薛部長瑞元：事實上我們不見得知道有這類的案件，除非有人來申訴、檢舉，或者是檢方請我們做一些協助判斷，這個時候我們才會知道有這類的案件。"],["涂委員權吉：所以我記得上次部長有講，你說就算4月10號那一天你們發函給數發部停止解析，而且還是冒著法律風險，那我想請問一下，到底是冒著什麼法律風險？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，不是只有當時，現在也還是，就只有一個施行細則在那邊，比方說民眾檢舉了，檢舉之後我們必須要發行政處分給這個網站的業者，然後要確定他收到，行政處分已經送達，然後他不願意遵從，我們才可以去做封網這個動作，或者就是說我們找不到那一個人到底是誰，也沒有聯絡的方式，我們才可以去做這件事情，那是在施行細則裡面所訂的。這一次我們封網是直接就封了，並沒有給他行政處分，這些我們就跳過去了。"],["涂委員權吉：而且我看4月15號部長接受中央社的採訪，經過這個事情之後，你有坦承說兒少性剝削防制條例的程序真的是太冗長。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["涂委員權吉：而且又針對我們剛剛前面講的這些事情，也凸顯在第一時間我們沒有一個完好的機制去做處理，所以部長也說要修正，針對這幾個部分是不是已經提出完善的修正？"],["薛部長瑞元：有，我們在這一次的建議條文裡面，已經有處理這一個，如果下個禮拜我們進入到逐條審查的時候，也許我們就可以看得到我們的主張是怎麼樣來做處理。因為這的確會有兩個問題必須要去處理，第一個就是剛剛委員所提到的，目前到底有多少這種網站，事實上沒有經過檢舉我們是不知道的。第二個，縱然我們處理，也把它封網了，但它可能換個網域又復活，這種情形出來的時候，如果我們沒有辦法主動去做巡察的話，我們也無從知道，結果等於說對它來講那個成本很低嘛！換個網域，繳沒多少錢就可以……"],["涂委員權吉：對，所以今天也是跟衛福部長講，今天這個事情發生了，但是我們一定要去探討為什麼在第一時間沒有辦法去做處理。而且我們針對保護服務司這5年預算編列還有員額擴編的情形，來看這5年的預算也是年年增加，員額也是年年擴編，表示我們大家對這個事情，還有我們對保護服務司可以說是非常重視，而且有很大的期待。我們今天在立法院一定要好好地來替民眾把關，也希望我們跟衛福部一起來為我們人民好好做事。沒有做好，我們現在發現了，我覺得我們就應該要儘快，雖然亡羊補牢為時已晚，可是至少還可以把一些沒有處理完善的情形好好地去把它處理好。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["涂委員權吉：針對這次兒少事件的發生、違法影片的發生，我看了一下，衛福部有針對性影像被害人權益進行保障，提出這個權益保障的說明辦法，我這邊也建議一下，因為我那時候想說去瞭解一下，這個說明辦法有五十幾頁，兩萬多個字，而且裡面全部都是一大堆的法條，我說實在話，如果以一般的被害人來講，這個好像在給他上課，要去考律師一樣，這個法條一大堆，一般的被害人要去尋求保護、扶助、求助，結果看這些法條，我覺得這真的是對他們太困難了，是不是可以針對這一部分……"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會做類似像懶人包那樣的東西。"],["涂委員權吉：對，去做一些淺顯易懂的東西，希望衛福部針對這部分再好好幫我們研議、瞭解，然後好好處理一下，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳）：好，謝謝涂權吉委員。","現在作以下宣告：等一下在王正旭委員質詢結束後，休息10分鐘。","現在請王正旭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 檢討 112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政\n署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具\n體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.464718750000001,"end":8.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.957843750000002,"end":10.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.551593750000002,"end":17.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.04096875,"end":17.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.05784375,"end":17.074718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.395343750000002,"end":20.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.293468750000002,"end":27.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.38096875,"end":30.034718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.08534375,"end":40.362218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.64909375,"end":44.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.49659375,"end":60.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.814718750000004,"end":69.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.14659375000001,"end":82.54971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.12346875,"end":95.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.50534375000001,"end":96.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.53909375,"end":96.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.94409375000001,"end":96.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.97784375,"end":97.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.34909375000001,"end":97.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.97346875000001,"end":100.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.74534375,"end":100.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.60596875,"end":100.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.84221875,"end":100.87596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.87596875000001,"end":104.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.69846875,"end":105.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.14534375000001,"end":117.61596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.90284375,"end":161.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.03346875000001,"end":119.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.16846875,"end":119.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.53784375,"end":132.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.26159375,"end":144.44721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.18471875,"end":150.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.25221875,"end":150.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.31971875000002,"end":150.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.93409375000002,"end":160.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.76096875000002,"end":172.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.78034375000001,"end":178.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.81721875000002,"end":183.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.23409375,"end":191.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.71409375000002,"end":207.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.39096875,"end":225.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.32909375000003,"end":231.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.30284375000002,"end":235.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.82534375,"end":253.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.10096875000002,"end":264.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.95159375000003,"end":280.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.93221875,"end":286.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.46721875000003,"end":296.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.06909375000004,"end":302.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.21159375,"end":312.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.18909375000004,"end":318.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.49596875000003,"end":333.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.95346875,"end":340.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.46721875000003,"end":349.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.46159375,"end":349.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.47846875000005,"end":349.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.49534375,"end":362.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.03346875,"end":366.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.85971875,"end":393.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.33221875000004,"end":410.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.70096875,"end":413.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.12659375000004,"end":419.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.71221875000003,"end":419.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.72909375,"end":448.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.45471875000004,"end":484.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.81596875,"end":491.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.88659375000003,"end":498.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.61971875,"end":543.3047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.49034375,"end":555.9609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薛部長先請教一下像我們2020年1月21號開始就是我們COVID-19新冠疫情因為有很多民眾想了解一下就是說我們現在疫情指揮中心已經解編了嘛 對不對那我們現在的情況新冠疫情的時代算是正式結束了嗎還是還是還有在管制還是處理還是怎麼樣"},{"start":45.274,"end":69.512,"text":"目前這個因為這個COVID-19的這一隻病毒經過一直的一個演化之後的話那現在有的這一些這個類型已經它的致重症率已經是相當的低了所以我們就把它從第五類的傳染病把它"},{"start":70.613,"end":95.342,"text":"降到變成現在應該是屬於第一次類那也就是說他不再是一個有重大健康威脅的一個傳染病但是他仍然是一個傳染病所以我們每年仍然要去注意到他的流行的狀況那也有必要說在疫苗的施打方面的話也可能必須要持續"},{"start":96.602,"end":105.848,"text":"所以基本上其實它是還沒有結束只是把它對不會結束變成一般性的傳染病這樣子所以沒有結束的問題那還有就是針對我們4月15號有請我們衛福部針對818天"},{"start":118.255,"end":139.468,"text":"停止解析這部分。」後來我們有看一下就是針對兒少性剝削防治條例第8條那時候你們說因為是在112年2月15號修法所以也看了一下就是說他在修改之前的差別就是在修改之前就是形式"},{"start":140.288,"end":159.714,"text":"司法上的執法行為,就是要有刑事司法才能去執法,後來修法之後給行政機關有行政作為的空間,也就是衛福部從那個時候才有法源依據去處理我們為少違反惡劣性影像的網站品質解析。」"},{"start":161.855,"end":178.941,"text":"好那我們想了解說那但是就算他沒有818天可是如果說從112年2月15號修法那也也有420天的時間那為什麼那個時候沒有辦法去做這部分其實這一個"},{"start":185.345,"end":206.758,"text":"所謂的這種把他封網這件事情的話,仍然是有兩類。一類的話是在法務部這邊偵查的過程當中,他會主動去等於是扣押,把證據保留,這樣子的動作去做的。"},{"start":207.478,"end":226.771,"text":"那第八條之後的話是修法之後是衛福部基於兒少保護的情形之下也可以去做但是我們那個時候就是說把這個程序定在施行細則裡面怎麼樣去做這件事情那所以這一個變成說就動作會比較冗長一點"},{"start":231.534,"end":253.424,"text":"對我們不了解就是說到底是什麼原因是因為那種情況下我們衛福部是不知情還是什麼情況下不能去處理而且據我們了解我們後來今年4月10號停止解析也是用兒少剝削防治條例的第7條跟性侵害犯罪"},{"start":254.164,"end":279.715,"text":"防治法的第9條以及行政執行法的第36條,含請我們速發部去停止解析。」那看起來跟第8條修法好像也沒有關係啊因為當時的這個去年修法之後的話那它的這個情形是這個樣子的就是說第一個我們必須要有這個民眾的申訴"},{"start":281.056,"end":301.112,"text":"民眾申訴下來之後才能夠啟動那個流程我們並沒有權目前也還沒有什麼權可以是普遍性去主動去做網路的搜尋所以我在想說是不是如果像這樣的事情如果沒有民眾申訴沒有民眾檢舉"},{"start":302.353,"end":317.765,"text":"那這個網站他一直犯罪的影像一直在外面散播傳送那難道我們衛福部沒有一些機制去主動去知道這些事去處理嗎所以我們這次修法就是希望說法律授權我們有這樣子的一個機制來做這件事情"},{"start":318.766,"end":339.072,"text":"所以我們一直就是希望凸顯到底問題在哪裡為什麼這個事情一直發生我說從前面檢察官起訴到後面一審定驗我不知道我們到底在等什麼我們衛福部才有機會去處理這樣子的事情因為事實上我們不見得知道有這類的案件除非說有人來做申訴檢舉"},{"start":340.652,"end":364.617,"text":"或者是說檢方那邊來請我們做一些協助判斷這個時候我們才會知道這類的案件所以我記得上次部長有講你說從就算4月10號那一天你們發函給疏發部停止解析而且還是冒著法律風險那我想請問一下到底是冒著什麼法律風險?根文報告當時"},{"start":366.917,"end":393.384,"text":"不是只有當時,現在也還是啦就一個施行細則在那邊施行細則我們必須要,比方說民眾檢舉了檢舉之後的話,我們必須要發這個行政處分給這個業者這個網站的業者然後要確定他收到了收到這個行政處分已經送達了然後他不願意遵守"},{"start":394.504,"end":419.133,"text":"我們才可以去做封網這個動作或者就是說我們找不到那一個人到底是誰那也沒有聯絡的方式我們才可以去做這件事情那是在這個事件細則裡面所定的那這一次我們封網是直接就封了並沒有特別還要給他行政處分這些我們就跳過去了"},{"start":419.813,"end":442.684,"text":"所以經過這個事情之後而且我看在4月15號我們部長接受中央社的採訪你也有講說坦承這個兒少性剝削防治條例這個程序真的是太冗長那而且又針對我們剛剛前面講的這些事情這樣發生也凸顯在第一時間我們沒有一個完好的機制去做處理所以說"},{"start":443.784,"end":470.561,"text":"部長也說要修正,是不是針對這幾個部分已經提出一個完善的修正?我們在這一次的建議條文裡面有,已經有處理這個,那到時候的話,如果下個禮拜我們進入到主條審查的時候,也許我們就可以看得到這個我們的主張是怎麼樣來做處理,因為這個的確會有兩個問題必須要去處理,第一個就是剛剛委員所提到的"},{"start":471.341,"end":491.249,"text":"這目前的話到底有多少這種網站,事實上沒有經過檢舉,我們是不知道的。第二個,縱然我們這個處理的也把它封網了,它可能換個網域它又復活。那這種情形出來的時候,如果我們沒有辦法就主動去做這種巡查的話,我們也無從知道。"},{"start":491.949,"end":513.999,"text":"那結果就是等於說對他來講那個成本很低嘛換個網域繳沒多少錢就可以對所以今天也是跟部長還有衛福部網講我們今天這個事情發生了但是我們一定要去探討為什麼在第一時間沒有辦法去做處理而且針對我們看我們五年保護服務師我們對這個預算編列還有原額擴編的情形"},{"start":517.901,"end":542.965,"text":"我看我們預算這5年也是年年增加這原則也是年年擴編表示我們大家對這個事情還有我們對保護服務師可以說是非常重視而且有很大的期待那我們今天在立法院我們一定要好好的來替我們民眾把關也希望跟衛福部我們一起來為我們人民好好做事那基本上明明"},{"start":543.625,"end":555.875,"text":"已經沒有做好我們現在發現我覺得我們就應該要儘快雖然亡羊補牢為時已晚可是至少還可以把一些沒有處理完善的情形好好的去把它處理好還有我們後來我們針對因為這次這個"},{"start":563.237,"end":582.143,"text":"而造這些的事情的發生那違反的影片的發生我看了一下我們衛福部有針對現影像被害人權益保障我們這個權益保障的說明辦法我這邊也建議一下因為我那時候想說去了解一下我看了一下這個裡面這個說明辦法有50幾頁"},{"start":587.885,"end":603.615,"text":"兩萬多個字而且裡面全部都是一大堆的法條我說實在話這個喔如果說以一般的被害人你要他這個好像在給他上課要去考那個律師一樣這個法條一大堆一般的被害人他"},{"start":604.275,"end":623.211,"text":"要去尋求、保護、輔助、求助,結果看這些法條,我覺得這真的是對他們太困難了,是不是可以針對這部分去做一些淺顯易懂的事情,希望這位夫婦真的這部分再好好幫我們研議、好瞭解、好好處理一下。」"}]}},{"id":"151632","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151632","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb367470b2ef6fdd05ab903698ddfaa754aeadb1108e4b84432a7a42656740401aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:19:39 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10:29:31","影片長度":"00:09:52","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":592,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:29:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:19:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":529,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（10時19分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：有請我們的薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，昨天有一則新聞我看了都嚇一跳，就是有民眾在網路平台PTT的八卦板上面說，臺北慈濟醫院的護理師偷拍病人的私密照，然後在網路上這樣子傳。我覺得這很離譜！一個病人在開刀房，旁邊可能都是醫師或護理人員，這個病人根本完全不知道自己被拍照或是被做了什麼動作，他是完全不知道的！","在我們今天討論的兒童及少年性剝削防制條例當中，這個好像也沒有包括在犯罪的樣態裡面？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果是兒少就會。"],["黃委員秀芳：那我想請教，臺北慈濟醫院是3月份才剛剛升格為醫學中心的醫院，這件事情地方衛生局好像是交給醫院先自行進行內部調查。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，我們是要求衛生局去做調查，他們應該一個禮拜內要把調查報告給我們。據我們所知，醫院本身已經將這位護理師移送，因為那個不雅的影像是由他散播出去的，所以這有兩個方面在做調查，一個是這一個個人散布這種私密影像的問題，另外一個是是否在這個醫院的開刀房有這樣的事情發生，這也在調查當中。"],["黃委員秀芳：我現在很好奇的就是病人的權利，一個病人躺在那邊還被這樣對待！"],["薛部長瑞元：如果這件事情是事實的話，當然醫院的責任就會很大，在開刀房裡面針對病人，尤其是在他被麻醉之後沒有知覺的情形之下，應該是只有在醫學上有必要才可以對他進行拍攝。老實講，我是覺得這有一點怪，不過這還是要看調查的結果是如何，因為第一個，我們沒有辦法確定他所講的什麼病人生殖器啦、隆出來的奶啦等等這些，除了拍攝之外，他還講說什麼「揉搓」，因為通常在開刀房裡面，不是只有一個人在，是一群人在，一群人做這樣子的事情是有一點匪夷所思啦！所以到底它是一個什麼樣的狀況？哪一科的病人進了手術房，做了全身麻醉，還有機會去做這個事情？我是覺得有一點奇怪。因為從實務上面來看，很多做全身麻醉的病人是看開刀的部位在哪裡，都已經鋪好了才開始做麻醉的，所以沒有機會去做這種事情，並不是一個人把衣服統統脫光，然後就麻醉了，再去準備哪個地方要開刀，事實上並不是這個樣子。所以這個敘述我是覺得有一點奇怪啦！不過還是要看調查結果。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我們希望儘快。現在是衛生局他們會自己主動調查嘛，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我們是要求這樣。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我們希望是這樣，而不是交給醫院自己調查。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然、當然。"],["黃委員秀芳：因為我覺得病人的權益真的要受到保護，一個完全被麻醉的病人躺在那邊，被怎樣對待其實他本身是不清楚的，所以我們也希望未來調查完之後，衛福部該怎麼處理，或者是病人的權益要怎麼去保護，都要好好去思考。好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["黃委員秀芳：接下來，前幾天衛福部有針對兒少性剝削防制條例的修法方向進行跨部會討論，特別提到四大修法方向分別是加重刑責、簡化封網流程、考慮對付費觀覽兒少性影像處以刑責，以及授權政府主動搜尋相關網站與金流。我想請教部長，針對這四個方向，衛福部是不是可以先稍微提一下？未來如果我們立法院這邊針對相關修法在委員會排審的話，因為很多委員都有提出，版本應該已經有好幾十個了，可是目前還沒有院版，院版可能要等衛福部送到行政院，才會再送到立法院，我不知道520之前你們來不來得及，所以我是不是可以先請部長就你們現在跨部會修法的方向簡單做個報告？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，大概是這樣，院版一定是緩不濟急啦！如果依照程序，包括預告、法規會、送到行政院、政委再做審查，院會通過再送過來的話，時間大概會很冗長，所以就條文的部分我們都有一個建議參考的條文在這邊，如果要快，當然是委員的版本就直接審了，我們提供我們的意見，如果衛福部的意見可採的話，在討論條文的時候就去做適當的調整。的確啦！其實這次我們建議的方向就是剛剛委員提到的那四個，它分散在一些條文裡面，當然也會有新增的條文，所以這個就要委員的版本有提，我們的意見才派得上用場。"],["黃委員秀芳：我當然希望衛福部能夠儘快，不過時間可能會和立法院這邊有一些落差。"],["薛部長瑞元：好像王召委有說下個禮拜就要排，所以我們就把速度加快，讓下個禮拜討論的時候更具體。"],["黃委員秀芳：那就先謝謝部長。","接下來，前一陣子我們也特別提到這個影像可能會在網路上販售，有關追蹤購買的金流和巡查的方式，剛剛部長也有提到巡查方面你們可能會委外，而金流的部分是由金管會處理，我是不是可以請教金管會這邊？"],["黃組長錫和：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：金管會在今天的報告裡面完全沒有提到，所以金管會是不是能夠說明相關的金流是否可以追蹤、巡查，或者是阻斷？"],["黃組長錫和：報告委員，金流部分如果司法警察機關在追查的時候，查到有經過金管會目前已經完成法遵聲明的這些虛擬通貨交易平台（VASP）的話，我們在VASP這個洗錢防制辦法裡面是要求他們要對客戶採取實名制，所以如果這些VASP接到司法警察機關要求提供資料的話，他們會配合提供資料，這樣也許就可以找到相關的嫌犯。"],["黃委員秀芳：我們希望有關兒少性剝削，可能跨部會都要一起合作，而不是只有衛福部，金管會還有很多部會都要一起合作才有辦法阻絕，不然在網路新興社會當中，其實犯罪的樣態一直在變化、層出不窮，所以我覺得跨部會真的非常重要。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝我們的黃秀芳委員。","接下來請涂權吉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 檢討 112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政\n署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具\n體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.14034375,"end":4.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.6040937500000005,"end":6.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.244093750000001,"end":13.446593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.446593750000002,"end":13.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.46346875,"end":13.817843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.037218750000001,"end":30.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.58721875,"end":33.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.455968750000004,"end":38.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.501593750000005,"end":66.94034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.94034375000001,"end":68.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.25659375000001,"end":71.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.32784375,"end":80.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.74409375,"end":81.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.17846875000001,"end":88.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.40534375,"end":98.20971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.49659375,"end":107.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.66034375000001,"end":103.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.96409375,"end":104.08221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.03534375000001,"end":107.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.10284375,"end":107.47409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.86221875000001,"end":121.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.03034375,"end":112.72221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.29596875,"end":113.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.88971875000001,"end":121.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.66596875,"end":131.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.84221875000001,"end":128.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.78284375,"end":130.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.90909375,"end":137.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.23721875,"end":143.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.50659375,"end":161.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.00409375,"end":145.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.63659375,"end":147.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.23034375,"end":155.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.28409375,"end":165.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.35534375,"end":166.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.93721875,"end":189.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.68971875000003,"end":185.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.75659375,"end":190.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.76909375000002,"end":214.36034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.66721875000002,"end":195.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.79346875000002,"end":196.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.08034375000003,"end":197.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.50159375,"end":202.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.47971875000002,"end":207.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.30596875,"end":211.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.64721875,"end":216.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.24596875,"end":220.68846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.05971875,"end":223.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.41409375,"end":221.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.71784375000001,"end":223.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.75971875000002,"end":226.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.37971875000002,"end":226.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.47659375,"end":245.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.17221875,"end":231.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.84284375000001,"end":232.09596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.42034375000003,"end":236.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.63534375,"end":236.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.36096875,"end":238.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.33971875,"end":238.55909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.73096875000002,"end":254.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.37534375,"end":253.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.18534375000002,"end":255.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.29909375000003,"end":259.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.45034375,"end":259.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.85534375000003,"end":260.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.15909375,"end":276.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.19284375,"end":260.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.39284375,"end":293.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.06096875000003,"end":363.53534375000004},{"speaker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這邊能夠盡快那當然這個時間可能也有這個可能會跟立法院這邊可能會有一些時間的一個落差好像王昭偉有說下個禮拜下禮拜要排所以我們的變成說我們就把速度加快這樣子讓下個禮拜在討論的時候就更具體"},{"start":463.952,"end":491.677,"text":"好那先謝謝部長那我接下來是不是可以請教就是說我們在前一陣子也特別提到就是說這個影像可能在這個網路上面那購買這個金流這個追蹤金流還有這個這個巡查的方式剛剛部長也有提到就是說可能你們會委外巡查的方式可能就是委外那這個金流的部分就是金管會金管會這邊我是不是可以請教金管會這邊"},{"start":503.218,"end":513.588,"text":"那我想請教就是金管會今天的這個報告裡面是完全沒有提到就是金管會是不是能夠說明相關的金流是否可以追蹤、巡查那或者是阻斷"},{"start":516.9,"end":535.779,"text":"法務委員就是說在金流的部分那這個案子如果說他在就是司法檢查機構在追查的時候他如果有查到說有經過就是我們金管會目前已經完成法尊聲明的這些這些這個虛擬同夥的教育平臺的話那因為我們在那個"},{"start":537.52,"end":557.447,"text":"這我們都叫VASP,VASP這個刑人防治辦法裡面要求他們對於這個客戶要採取實名制的所以應該是如果說這些VASP如果接到司法警方機關要求這個提供資料的這個要求的話他們會會配合司法警方機關來提供資料那也許就可以去找找到相關這些嫌犯以上是"},{"start":557.907,"end":583.515,"text":"好,那我們希望就是說有關這個兒少新博學可能從跨部會都要一起合作,不是是衛福部那當然金管會還有很多的部會,大家要一起合作才有辦法阻絕,要不然我覺得說這個在這麼網路新興的一個這個社會當中,其實犯罪的樣態一直在一直在變化,層出不窮,所以我覺得跨部會真的是非常的重要,好那謝謝部長,謝謝"},{"start":585.643,"end":590.972,"text":"好,謝謝我們的黃秀芳委員。那接下來請圖全集委員發言"}]}},{"id":"151631","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151631","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb341784ae87d3d11c6e793a383c05d564ceadb1108e4b8443294875d2917544b4e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"10:34:50 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10:38:17","影片長度":"00:09:46","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案4案。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":586,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:38:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:28:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":480,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（10時28分）謝謝主席，有請陳主委。"],["主席：陳主委。"],["林委員宜瑾：還有漁業署陳副署長。"],["主席：漁業署陳副署長。"],["陳主任委員東陽：召委好。"],["林委員宜瑾：主委早。本席上次質詢中國核電廠氚廢水排放案例研析，我首先要肯定核安會，你在第一時間迅速回復，也表示會更提前完成計畫。不過排放到大海的放射性廢水造成的影響難以預估，化學物質除了隨著洋流流到各處，還可能在海洋生物攝取之後，因為生物累積效應的關係使得食物鏈頂端者的體內累積更多影響健康的物質，所以這一次本席特別關心臺灣遠洋漁業捕撈魚種當中的放射性物質生物檢測狀況。","從漁業署的官方網站可以看到目前返臺太平洋魚獲輻射抽檢的檢驗結果，像銫-137等半衰期較長的元素都是符合規定的情形。不過我想就教核安會還有農業部，國人常吃的這些遠洋魚類的抽驗情形也是合格的嗎？還是說根據剛剛所謂的生物累積效應，漁民捕獲的這種大型魚種目前檢驗的狀況如何？"],["陳主任委員東陽：跟召委報告，到目前為止，我們做這些魚貨的檢測都是安全的，我們的輻射偵測中心是第一線實驗室在量測，這些魚貨大概是由水試所、漁業署提供這些樣本。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，漁業署要補充說明還是……"],["陳副署長建佑：委員好。漁業署補充說明，剛才的報告提到，我們抽驗的部分包括沿近海還有您關心的秋刀魚等漁場，所謂遠洋經濟性的部分。您剛才關心的包括我們在太平洋比較大型的鮪旗鯊，其實都有一些規劃，以113年……剛才也已經跟委員還有委員會報告，我們在沿近海這一塊總共抽了3,000件，遠洋的部分抽了240件，這裡面就包括秋刀魚還有鮪旗鯊，秋刀魚規劃銫的部分90件、氚的部分90件，還有鮪旗鯊各30件，就是60件，總共240件。到目前為止，因為還沒有進入產季，秋刀魚是在下半年，遠洋的鮪旗鯊已經抽了4件，秋刀魚之前回國……氚的部分也抽了2件，目前的情形都遠小於標準。"],["林委員宜瑾：都是OK的。好，下一個主題想跟主委討論，就是本週六427反核占領行動十週年遊行的訴求，昨天相關的團體再一次召開記者會，他堅定反對修法讓老舊的核電廠延役，因為還有許多欠缺考量的地方。本席也有跟主委提到，老舊核電廠延役有龐大的經濟跟環境成本，同時主委也認同著手處理核廢料是目前要積極面對的課題。上一次核安會來報告的時候，許多會員都有問到核燃料乾式貯存槽的進度，根據我們辦公室的瞭解，台電公司跟新北市政府已經在今年4月1號完成行政調解，台電依照行政調解的結果，4月16號要提出核一廠用過核燃料中期貯存計畫的水土保持計畫，要將第二次變更設計的文件送交新北市政府審查。目前這個進度看起來核廢料處理仍是未解跟棘手的問題，所以很多委員提案修法，要讓老舊的核電廠延役，我覺得這是相當欠缺思考的作法！還有，讓核電廠繼續運作本來就有違臺灣持續進行的能源政策，修管制辦法開放延役，總不可能讓當前已經除役，或者正在除役中、準備除役中的核電廠再冒著風險繼續運作，也絕不可能再找新的地方興建新的核電廠。所以部分委員提核子反應設施延役的修法，顯然忽視了核一、核二已經進入除役階段，核三也提出除役計畫的現況。","主委認為國民黨這樣的提案是不是非常沒有辦法執行？如果提出這樣的提案，國民黨要在哪些執政縣市蓋核電廠？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個的確是比較困難的議題，核安會是獨立的安全管制機關，對於特定的擁核、反核主張我們不做具體的回應，應該秉持比較公正的方法，畢竟我們是技術團隊。"],["林委員宜瑾：是，可是我們是就核安這個點上面看研議的狀況。當然就核安來看，您也說過確實是有很多難題。"],["陳主任委員東陽：的確都是有很多難題，不然就不會現在有這麼多的討論跟爭議。"],["林委員宜瑾：是。"],["陳主任委員東陽：那麼這個才需要社會上大多數人的認同或者是共識，還有待一些努力。"],["林委員宜瑾：另外就是這個遊行預計要復刻2014年的占領行動，在現場播放核災警報，邀請很多民眾躺在中山南路上，表達反核電研議的訴求。過去我們持續進行核電廠周遭地區的核安演習，然而我想臺灣一座那麼小小的島嶼，全國都是命運共同體，所以是不是也必須讓全國人民有基本的核災應對意識？如何能做到？當然我們都不希望看到任何的災難發生，但基本的概念一定還是要深植人民的心中，加上最近地震頻傳，所以核災警報如果跟很多則的地震警報混雜在一起，那人民如何應對？主委這點你怎麼看？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個在我們官網跟app「核安e點通」大概都可以點來聽聽看。核災的部分，我想主要是核電廠周邊的居民優先，這也就是我們的app推廣率其實是相對的侷限，主要是在新北市石門、萬里及恆春，我們在這一塊還會繼續努力，但是現在在我們的網頁上，其實你可以點來聽聽看，沒有問題。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以兩者是有很大的差別？"],["陳主任委員東陽：可以聽得出來。"],["林委員宜瑾：核安會在書面報告中提到境外核災是最有可能影響臺灣的輻射層，不過，我想全國人民對於境外核災的及時應對意識是否充足，核安會是否有盡到全民核災的防災教育，這一點也請主委要特別的關心。","請教主委最後一個問題，就是最有可能影響臺灣的境外輻射層，核安會如何向人民宣達這個防災的概念？什麼時候可以有效落實這方面的全國教育？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個部分我們都持續在關切，一個是日本，一個是中國大陸，這個部分我剛才也跟其他委員報告，我們每年都有定期的防災演練，今年是核安30號在核一廠，去年是核安29號在核二廠，我們動員超過1萬人，所以其實是跨部會在做，今年如果有機會，再請委員來給我們指導一下，稍微理解一下那個場景。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，主委辛苦，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾召委，主委請回。"],["主席（林委員宜瑾）：再來請鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","再來請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葉元之","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","范雲","張嘉郡","吳春城"],"page_start":251,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會\n列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查 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所以是漁業署要補充說明還是委員好 那個漁業署這邊補充說明喔事實上從剛才的報告的部分我們在抽驗的部分事實上就包括所謂的鹽濟海的部分還有您關心的包括秋刀魚等漁場的這些所謂的遠洋經濟性的部分"},{"start":148.522,"end":171.901,"text":"那您剛才關心的部分是包括我們在太平洋這邊所比較大型的就叫尾旗沙的部分其實都有一些的規劃那以113年呢剛才已經也跟委員報告還有委員會報告的部分就是我們在沿近海的這一塊總共抽了3000件那對於所謂的遠洋的部分我們抽了240件那這裡面就包括秋刀魚"},{"start":172.782,"end":193.878,"text":"的部分還有就是所謂的尾棋砂的部分那秋刀魚的部分是規劃了100就是射所謂的90件還有就是那個穿的部分90件還有尾棋砂的部分各30件就是60件的部分總共240件到目前為止因為還沒有進入產季就是秋刀魚的部分是在下半年"},{"start":194.418,"end":210.326,"text":"的部分目前的部分遠洋的緯淇沙的部分已經抽了四件秋刀魚是之前回國的部分不是川的部分也抽了兩件目前的部分的情形都是偏小魚的以上"},{"start":212.401,"end":214.543,"text":"就在昨天相關的團體又有再次召開記者會他堅定反對修法"},{"start":229.921,"end":239.152,"text":"讓老舊核電廠研議因為還有許多欠缺考量的地方那本席也有跟主委有提到就是說老舊核電廠研議有龐大的經濟跟所謂的環境成本同時主委也認同"},{"start":245.74,"end":263.249,"text":"左手處理這個核廢料是目前我們積極要面對的課題那上一次核安會來報告的時候許多委員都有問到說這個燃料核燃料乾式主存槽的進度那根據我們辦公室的了解台電公司跟新北市政府"},{"start":263.829,"end":282.23,"text":"已經在今年4月1日完成行政調解。那肯定依照行政調解結果要4月16日提出核一廠用過核燃料中期儲存計劃的水土保持計劃也就是第二次邊跟設計的文件要送交新北市政府來審查"},{"start":283.411,"end":300.568,"text":"那目前這個進度我們看起來核廢料的處理仍是未解跟棘手的問題那所以很多委員提案修法說讓老舊的核電廠來研議我覺得這是相當欠缺思考的做法那還有就是說讓核電廠繼續運作本來就是有違台灣持續進行的能源政策"},{"start":307.535,"end":323.225,"text":"那修管制辦法開放這個研議可能總不可能讓當前已經廚藝或者正在廚藝中準備廚藝中的核電廠在冒著風險繼續運作所以也絕不可能再找新的地方來興建新的核電廠"},{"start":324.305,"end":337.78,"text":"那所以部分委員提的這個核子反應設施演繹的修法顯然是忽視了核一、核二已經進入了主義階段那核三也提出核主義的這個計畫的現況那主委你認為"},{"start":342.129,"end":355.159,"text":"國民黨這樣的提案是不是非常的沒有辦法的執行跟如果這樣的提案是不是國民黨那他要再怎麼哪些執政縣市去蓋核電廠嗎"},{"start":358.268,"end":384.027,"text":"這個的確是比較困難的議題那麼我想核安會是獨立的安全管制機關那對特定的擁核緩和我想我們不做具體的應該秉持比較公正的方法因為我們畢竟是技術本位可是我們是就核安就核安這個點上面來看研議的狀況那當然"},{"start":386.443,"end":408.535,"text":"對我舊核案來看您也說過確實是有很多難題的確都是有很多難題那不然就不會現在有這麼多的討論跟提議那麼這個還需要一些我想社會上大多數人的認同或者是共識還有再一些努力"},{"start":410.618,"end":435.94,"text":"那另外就是說這個遊行他預計要復刻2014年的佔領行動在現場播放那個核災的警報邀請很多的民眾躺在中山南路上那表達反核電研議的訴求那過去我們持續進行核電廠周遭地區的核安演習然而我想台灣一座那麼小小的島嶼全國都是命運共同體"},{"start":436.741,"end":460.76,"text":"所以是不是也必須要全國人民有基本的核災應對的意識那如何能做到那當然我們都不希望看到任何的災難來發生但基本的概念一定還是要深植人民的心中那加上最近地震頻傳所以核災警報如果跟很多則的地震警報混雜在一起那人民如何應對所以主委這點你怎麼看"},{"start":462.381,"end":481.859,"text":"這個在我們官網跟這個APP核安一點通大概都有可以點來聽聽看那麼核災的部分我想主要是核電廠周邊的區塊的居民這是優先這是優先這也就是我們的APP它其實"},{"start":482.97,"end":502.757,"text":"推廣的率其實是相對的侷限因為主要的新北市、石門、萬里、恆春我們還會繼續努力這一塊但是現在在我們的網頁上其實你可以點來聽聽看 沒有問題所以兩者是有很大的差別"},{"start":505.137,"end":529.453,"text":"可以聽得出來那核安會的書面報告中有提到境外核災是最有可能影響臺灣的輻射程不過我想全國人民對於境外核災的即時應對的意識是否充足核安會是否有盡到全民核災的防災教育這一點也請主委要特別的關心想要請教主委最後一個問題就是說我們最有可能影響臺灣的境外輻射程"},{"start":531.735,"end":539.825,"text":"何安會如何向人民宣達這個防災的概念那什麼時候可以有效於落實這方面的全國的教育"},{"start":541.695,"end":569.523,"text":"這個部分當然我們都持續的關切一個是日本一個是中國大陸那麼這個部分我剛才也跟其他委員報告我們每年都有定期的防災的演練今年是河安30號那麼在河一場那去年是河二場在河安29號那麼我們動員多少人呢?超過1萬人去年所以它其實是跨部會的合作"},{"start":570.383,"end":583.912,"text":"那麼今年如果有機會再請委員來給我們指導一下所以稍微理解一下就是說那個場景大概是這樣好 好 主委辛苦 謝謝主席謝謝移檢召委 主委請回"}]}},{"id":"151629","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151629","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb329170dbbf46418eb6abc9c09ba589754eadb1108e4b844324ce78548ac6631505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:28:04 - 10:34:49","影片長度":"00:06:45","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":405,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:34:49+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:28:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":466,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（10時28分）我請林部長跟國土署署長。"],["主席：請林部長跟國土署署長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：部長、署長，我記得我在4月11號質詢的時候有說，像花蓮地震有紅單、黃單，那雖然不是你們直接的責任，但你們對縣市政府有督導的義務，我那時候就說餘震不斷會不會再造成第二次的傷害？你看像昨天這樣子，有好幾棟大樓又倒了，所以我想先請問一下署長，如果情況都是這樣，那我們都沒有辦法去處理嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：委員指的是那個……"],["張委員宏陸：那天我們在這邊詢答時，我有跟你說有紅單、黃單的，我們是不是應該要求縣市政府積極去做，然後要做積極的補強對不對？這個是跟人民生命財產非常直接相關的，對不對？我那時候就擔心，結果你看事情就發生了啊！"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告……"],["張委員宏陸：如果有積極做，我不相信一棟大樓你都有補強了，結果又會這樣。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，4月3號以後，大概隔週我們就跟國震中心就下去，針對其中有十九件紅單的部分，都已經主動邀約住戶開始來談耐震補強。昨天新增的富凱飯店因為它之前已經歇業在進行內部整修，所以它一開始也沒有來做任何的申報，而外面也不知道，昨天發生了以後，我們也是立即通知花蓮縣政府，有瞭解狀況，也提供它一些可以快速拆除的業者名單，所以它今天已經開始同步進行，但是後續紅單的部分，我們還是有持續在輔導。跟委員報告，這部分我們都有積極在進行。"],["張委員宏陸：署長，倒的也不是只有這一棟啦！部長，我為什麼會請你上來？你也當過地方首長，我們也都在地方服務過，其實這種事情如果是縣市政府有很積極的作為，把它真正的積極補強，我相信不會有這麼嚴重的事情發生吧！部長，你的看法？"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員，地方政府的積極度是非常的重要，這一點我同意。第二個，其實國土署在第一時間發生之後，因為它帶去評估勘驗的大概有一千多棟或者間，我記得我們已經完成的應該是一千一百多間。另外，剛剛委員所關心提到的，因為地震一發生的時候，第一次7.2的時候，其實建築物就有可能已經受損了，它要在評估之後才能決定可不可以補強，有一些可能是沒有辦法補強的，另外需要補強的話，那也需要時間。還有一個是剛剛你特別提到的拆除部分，我們是認為可以儘快地加速，所以現在我們也已經提供中南部有拆除機具業者的清單給花蓮縣政府，希望他們儘快加速拆除工作。當然縣政府有反映現在因為比較缺工，也缺機具，昨天院長也特別指示，我們會積極地來協助，當然也希望地方政府能夠加油。"],["張委員宏陸：我必須要說，地方政府有沒有積極是非常重要的事，我那天就是有要求地方政府要積極。地方政府如何積極？其實有很多的業者、有很多的什麼，我們都可以去拜託他們，然後請他們趕快儘量去協助，或者有開口合約的就趕快去做。其實如果有做，這一次我認為不會再有這麼多的大樓這樣倒塌，尤其是我們看到新聞，有一些民宅部分也是在這一次又倒塌了。我覺得應該從這邊來記取一個教訓，就是如果地方政府做不來的話，中央應該要積極介入協調，不然這都是人民生命、財產的安全。這部分我覺得我們以後應該用這個例子，然後未來如果地方政府不做，我們要讓地方政府做，它沒有做，中央會有什麼機制要求它要怎麼做，不然每個地方政府、每個縣市首長的個性都不一樣啦！反正就放在那裡也是放著，有積極的也是積極。我記得臺北縣政府在921的時候，馬上請所有的公會、所有的什麼，該做的就做，然後連磁磚什麼的都全部用好，我覺得這就是積極度的問題，我不知道部長的看法如何？"],["林部長右昌：其實地方政府如果缺工或者缺料或者缺技術人員的話，當然它也可以主動，比如邀集全國各縣市的相關公會來協助，甚至也可以跟鄰近的縣市直接來聯繫請求，其實這在過去都已經行之有年，也有相關的機制，當然中央從一開始到現在都是積極地在幫忙。"],["張委員宏陸：對，部長，你說的沒有錯，我現在說的就是我們以前的機制都在，但那個機制是義務，跟自己、縣市首長……"],["林部長右昌：那個也是責任。"],["張委員宏陸：其他的縣市是義務跟責任，要去協調，我是認為應該把它明確化，如果這個縣市首長沒有做到什麼，我們應該要求有一個標準啦！有個標準訂出來，哪個縣市沒有做好，其實大家都看得到啊！我不知道部長你覺得要不要訂這個標準出來？"],["林部長右昌：我請國土署來研議。"],["張委員宏陸：好，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸委員，也謝謝林右昌部長及吳署長。","接下來請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-14","speakers":["吳琪銘","莊瑞雄","羅美玲","陳玉珍","黃捷","陳培瑜","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","吳沛憶","王美惠","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","李柏毅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","黃國昌","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳菁徽","陳冠廷","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案；二、審查內政\n部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)\n行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六\n條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國\n籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員\n林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員莊\n瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案、 (十五)委員林岱樺等\n17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四\n條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":1.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.9715937500000003,"end":2.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.03034375,"end":6.544718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.81909375,"end":6.494093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.050968750000001,"end":7.287218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.844093750000001,"end":8.265968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.09284375,"end":9.632843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.35846875,"end":27.824093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.92534375,"end":40.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.93596875,"end":47.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.344093750000006,"end":50.909093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.47409375,"end":85.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.392843750000004,"end":60.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.58221875,"end":63.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.61096875,"end":68.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.87659375,"end":69.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.69909375,"end":72.84659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.49159375,"end":76.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.54221875,"end":76.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.03034375,"end":85.28346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.28346875000001,"end":85.31721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.31721875000001,"end":85.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.60409375,"end":86.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.02596875,"end":86.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.27909375,"end":86.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.59971875000001,"end":86.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.65034375,"end":119.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.23159375,"end":124.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.18034375,"end":124.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.02409375,"end":139.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.90096875,"end":130.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.91346875000002,"end":133.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.97534375,"end":157.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.49159375000002,"end":161.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.45284375,"end":184.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.82471875000002,"end":185.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.61784375000002,"end":231.64034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.20846875,"end":187.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.69096875000002,"end":237.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.74909375000001,"end":249.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.35471875000002,"end":278.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.12659375000004,"end":281.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.65784375000004,"end":283.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.23971875,"end":304.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.77659375,"end":327.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.70534375,"end":357.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.35909375,"end":370.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.13784375,"end":370.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.52159375,"end":393.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.99096875000004,"end":391.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.57284375,"end":395.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.10846875000004,"end":395.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.78346875,"end":396.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.94784375,"end":402.90471875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":27.398,"text":"跟國土署長來請部長跟國土署長部長署長那個我記得我在4月11號我質詢的時候有說像這個花蓮地震那有紅單黃單那雖然不是我們直接的責任但我們有督導的義務我們對縣市政府然後呢我那時候就說了"},{"start":28.358,"end":35.683,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":56.17,"end":72.65,"text":"那天我們在這邊我跟你講說有紅單黃單的我們是不是要求縣市政府要積極的去做然後要做積極的補強對不對這個是跟人民生命財產非常直接相關的對不對那你看我也不知道"},{"start":73.511,"end":77.693,"text":"凍結書面報告案計6案。四、凍結書面報告案計6案。四、凍結書面報告案計6案。四、凍結書面報告案計6案。四、凍結書面報告案計6案。四、凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":103.207,"end":117.154,"text":"審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。三、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。四、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。五、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。六、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。七、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心1案。"},{"start":127.761,"end":133.345,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":157.601,"end":171.888,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":187.295,"end":204.863,"text":"那另外是剛剛委員在關心提到的就是因為地震他一發生的時候第一次那個7.2的時候其實他建築物就有可能已經受損了那他要評估之後才要能決定說可不可以補強那有一些可能是沒有辦法補強的"},{"start":206.344,"end":211.891,"text":"審查內政部主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"是兩個問題,我跟委員簡單的報告。委員您說,我們過去在處理,軍法過去在處理刑事責任。我舉個簡單的例子,今天有一個官兵,跑到了不正當場所,到裡面去吸毒,那他進出不正當場所,本來我們裡面有規範,不准去不正當場所。那他放假期間,他跑到不正當場所去,他有行政責任,這個行政責任要處理。"},{"start":231.776,"end":232.336,"text":"懲罰法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":251.608,"end":255.312,"text":"審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。五、審查行政院陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":265.58,"end":269.722,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":293.516,"end":296.163,"text":"如果他今天犯案我們是不可以同意他退伍的。」"},{"start":297.607,"end":323.509,"text":"謝謝委員,我跟委員報告,剛講的是回應委員第一個問題,第二個問題就是剝奪、減少、退出給予。過去,這個也參考公務員的相關的規範,過去一個人如果退伍了之後,我們對他的懲罰手段是很有限的。譬如說今天有一個人,他在在職期間,他做了很多不當的行為,退伍了之後兩年或是三年,你才發覺他這個行為非常嚴重,甚至於有損到國家安全的時候,"},{"start":323.789,"end":327.013,"text":"在行政上他必須要負的責任。」因為這個是你單位的問題可是你一旦法把它定下去你為了一個兩個甚至你自己不查結果你會去影響到很多其他人的權益因為你有這條法它很多就會被用上了就是你這樣的剝奪跟"},{"start":340.991,"end":347.937,"text":"檢免其實是不合理的因為它不符比例原則因為你是懲戒法在這裡因為時間的關係我想這個都還可以還可以再討論另外一個就是當初洪仲秋案為什麼會特別有第10條就是你長官如果要做什麼樣的命令命令的時候他必須要有文書的資料可是你們這一次把文書這個部分拿掉了他主要的原因是什麼"},{"start":367.68,"end":369.661,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":386.185,"end":391.847,"text":"懲罰法範刑事件處理法草案案。三、審查行政院徐巧芯等18人擬具第10條文修正草案案。四、審查行政院徐巧芯等18人擬具第10條文修正草案案。五、審查行政院徐巧芯等18人擬具第10條文修正草案案。六、審查行政院徐巧芯等18人擬具"},{"start":411.914,"end":424.223,"text":"可是他又不願意下白紙黑字那未來誰承擔我覺得這個才是最大的問題你如果在管教方面或者在軍紀的運用上面你在38條你已經定了然後這個跟你當初的用意其實是不一樣的第10條才是我們現在覺得你為什麼要突然把文書下達文書的這樣的指令把它拿掉我覺得這個是有問題的因為"},{"start":439.373,"end":457.242,"text":"從開始一月到現在,我們軍中已經發生了13起這樣子的自殺的案件,死亡。另外3起是自殺未遂。這裡面當然有3起是在中科院發生的,而且它的時間點很特別。我今天為什麼要特別提出來,還有"},{"start":458.322,"end":485.167,"text":"包括有兩件也是後勤後勤單位的都是跟一些相有相關聯性我覺得如果我們要查查有些可能要去認真的查查因為中科院在2月28號有致意身亡一個女性的技術員那時候是連假2月3、3月2號才開始上班那怎麼會在連假當中你是在中科院院區裡面"},{"start":486.767,"end":497.734,"text":"沒有上班的時間為什麼會自殺?」我現在特別提出來是有一些如果是有不當的指示或者有一些他們認為不妥的那會面臨到什麼樣的問題這個跟法都有相關所以就這個部分我們還是希望可以清楚的說明白因為洪仲秋案當時大家引起我們"},{"start":508.88,"end":526.251,"text":"整個大家社會輿論的壓力所以軍法就很快的把它拿掉那你現在不要再製造更多的問題我們同意其實你應該在管教上面有更多的工具手段可是不代表可以借用這個機會會衍生更多的問題的法條在這裡出現好不好謝謝馬文俊委員來鋪掌事項請回"},{"start":531.895,"end":552.861,"text":"我剛剛說的那個,也請查查一下,有13起的,這樣子的。不能只有表面的理由,背後的因素可能要查清楚。對,因為不管時間點或其他的因素,我們希望可以查查清楚,它已經不是個案。那如果是檢調的話,我覺得軍方基於保護袍則,也應該要求檢調,我要一個答案。"},{"start":553.541,"end":554.302,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院"}]}},{"id":"151627","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151627","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3e2a6941f6e7b311fa8d86c0863c2f2caeadb1108e4b84432578e89e1067bee505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"呂玉玲","委員發言時間":"10:22:33 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10:30:44","影片長度":"00:08:11","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案。\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員黃建賓等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-9"},"duration":491,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:30:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:22:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":347,"blocks":[["呂委員玉玲：（10時22分）謝謝主席，請王部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員早。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，今天我們特別針對工輔法有一些修正的條文要來審查，尤其是去年9月屏東科技園區的明揚國際科技公司，他們因為沒有如實申報化學物品的存量，導致我們消防隊隊員們對這個火災現場的狀況無法正確來判斷，造成4名弟兄罹難的悲劇。所以我們今天針對第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條要來做修正，針對工廠的危險物品，未如實申報的、申報不實的或違反申報的，我們原來是罰1到5萬，現在要罰5到500萬。","現在本席要提醒的是，因為有些不實的申報或是規避申報，尤其有些物品如果沒有放到工廠內，譬如說物流業或者是倉儲業的倉儲設施裡面的話，那我們要如何去規範、管理，把這個範圍擴大？以桃園來講，根據本席統計，112年2月，桃園就有2,300家了，所以我們是不是要擴大他們存放危險物品的地點、範圍及申報的場所？"],["王部長美花：事實上，按照消防法的規定，倉儲業者裡面的這些危險物品，本來就都要符合消防法相關可以存放的量以及消防法規……"],["呂委員玉玲：你們有去檢查嗎？像昨天屏東那個倉儲大火，而且嗶嗶啵啵，有爆炸的聲音，這就是有危險物品，所以我們如何去加強管制？"],["王部長美花：它有沒有危險物品我們會去查，因為它是屬於特登工廠，我們會去瞭解屏東的這個部分。"],["呂委員玉玲：本席之所以會這麼提，因為有些工廠就是規避我們的管理，我們必須全面去管理，如果它把危險物品存放在工廠的話，是符合我們規定的，但是放在倉儲業那邊是大量的，那該怎麼辦呢？"],["王部長美花：以桃園為例，倉儲業它有的是放在特區，有一些是在一般的區域，我們也曾經跨部會去討論過，地方的主管機關對倉儲業確實應該要加強盤查。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我們把它納管進去，全面管理才是最安全的，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是，我們都有跟地方政府提到大型的倉儲業要做好相關的管理。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以我們現在除了開罰之外，我們還要讓它的所有設施有一個妥善性的改善，好不好？"],["王部長美花：對，我覺得事先讓他們知道要申報，事先告訴他們，要怎麼做管理……"],["呂委員玉玲：對，要做安全管理。它存放的地點除了工廠，還有可能是倉儲，把倉儲放進去、倉儲的設施這些放進去，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["呂委員玉玲：安全是最重要的。再來，本席要提一個老問題，就是停電的問題，部長，我們知道台電第一線員工他們在執行搶修、維修等等工程是非常辛苦的，疲於奔命，但是能源政策要規劃得好，如果規劃得很爛的話，他們真的是辛苦再辛苦，又危險，尤其是現在我們包括整個台電完善配電設施的維修，還有加強維修，光是我們桃園這幾天，你看看，有十幾次停電。所以我們在2018年的時候就有配電系統強韌計畫，在2023年，我們再提了5年的配電系統升級計畫，就是要來減少停電的發生，尤其是2023年提了這個提升、升級的配電強韌計畫，未來我們會減少到多少呢？"],["王部長美花：會減少到多少，現在沒有辦法講數字，但是確實在配電系統這個部分，我們儘量讓它可以自動來偵測，或者如果有壞掉，可以自動轉換相關的設備，確實經費裡面有增加，趕快來做相關的汰換。"],["呂委員玉玲：我們來看以前的資料，我特別去調了一些資料，配電系統停電次數，2020年到2023年配電系統停電的次數是有減少，看起來是有減少，但是部長你再細看一下，如果超過五百戶的數量是增加的，這代表什麼？範圍增加，影響的戶數也在增加，是不是這樣子？"],["王部長美花：因為人口稠密的多，除了這個次數之外，其實要看……"],["呂委員玉玲：這就是範圍增加啦！"],["王部長美花：但是要看這個停電的部分在幾分鐘之內去把它解決，事實上，非常多停電的次數都在很短的時間就解決掉。"],["呂委員玉玲：所以趕快把你的計畫做出來，最重要的是，今年我們有很多發電廠都要除役，民間的也都合約到期了，雖然我們看到一些資料，像我們的興達電廠1號、2號機要除役，還有民營的麥寮電廠1號機、2號機合約也都到期了，再加上核三廠1號機也將在7月除役，這部分會減少的總量是315萬瓩，但是我們看到你在增加的這些其他的電裡面，已經可以補這個缺口的部分，你說民營的部分有森霸豐德3號機、大潭的7號跟9號機，還有興達新的1號機，補上來的有443萬瓩的電力。雖然新發電的多於要停掉的電力，但是我們擔心的就是備轉容量的問題，在415的時候，備轉容量只剩下2.8%，現在如果這些補上來的話，我們備轉容量應該平均要多少才能夠穩定？"],["王部長美花：415這個部分確實是因為機組壞掉，地震造成增加的機組壞掉，所以才會在瞬間有備轉容量降得比較低的情況。至於委員講的，到今年我們新增的機組確實比除役的機組多，這個備轉容量的部分，我們都會維持在10%……"],["呂委員玉玲：一般要多少才能夠穩定的配電、輸電？我們是12%到15%，現在你看只有2.8%，這是很危險的，何況今年有這麼多要除役、合約到期的，你雖然有其他電補上來，但是你要試轉、要商轉、要點火，還要試運、試轉，這種情形會不會發生中斷、斷層而補不上來？這個都要先做好準備。"],["王部長美花：有，其實我們都有做細膩的規劃，另外，因為再生能源確實也有在增加，所以再生能源增加了之後，讓基載的電力也比較多樣化的調配，其實台電的專業都有在做這樣的規劃。"],["呂委員玉玲：部長，我再次重申，我們的能源規劃真的很爛，讓我們第一線的台電員工在執行的時候是疲於奔命，非常辛苦，請加強，好不好？"],["主席：謝謝呂玉玲委員。","接下來我們請楊瓊瓔委員發言。","主席宣告一下，待會11點鐘我們會先休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-9","speakers":["邱議瑩","黃建賓","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林思銘","林岱樺","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","鄭正鈐","謝衣鳯","蔡易餘","何欣純","黃國昌","洪孟楷","黃捷","羅智強","牛煦庭","陳超明","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷","王美惠"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等 21案；二、審查：\n(一)行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(二)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員\n黃建賓等 17 人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案、(六)\n本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員蔡易\n餘等20 人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)本院\n委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及\n第三十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.801593750000002,"end":11.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.590343750000002,"end":12.450968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.93534375,"end":19.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.42034375,"end":23.925968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.38159375,"end":26.457218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.54159375,"end":40.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.48034375,"end":41.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.21846875,"end":44.985968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.45846875,"end":82.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.43159375,"end":107.25471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.25471875000001,"end":107.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.91284375000001,"end":107.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.92971875,"end":120.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.89846875,"end":131.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.58596875,"end":122.17221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.55909375000002,"end":137.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.10659375,"end":151.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.04534375,"end":151.14659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.28159375,"end":167.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.22409375,"end":174.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.59034375000002,"end":180.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.85534375,"end":188.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.96846875,"end":184.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.79909375000003,"end":194.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.27971875,"end":202.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.50596875000002,"end":201.38346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.13846875000002,"end":204.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.79221875000002,"end":207.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.97721875000002,"end":209.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.61846875,"end":219.82784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.31721875000002,"end":222.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.54471875000002,"end":227.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.80971875,"end":235.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.89284375000003,"end":260.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.96909375,"end":265.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.74034375,"end":286.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.93971875,"end":299.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.64221875000004,"end":301.13159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.26659375,"end":308.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.24846875000003,"end":310.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.25659375000004,"end":313.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.76659375,"end":314.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.80034375,"end":332.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.18846875,"end":315.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.47034375000004,"end":322.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.48534375,"end":332.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.99159375000005,"end":333.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.02534375000005,"end":352.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.55659375000005,"end":335.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.98846875000004,"end":390.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.25659375000004,"end":399.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.28909375,"end":403.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.11971875,"end":410.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.71784375000004,"end":410.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.85284375000003,"end":410.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.97096875000005,"end":411.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.25784375,"end":411.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.51096875,"end":433.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.55409375000005,"end":435.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.51971875000004,"end":460.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.38534375,"end":476.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.90596875000006,"end":487.75221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.41846875000005,"end":491.46471875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.145,"end":11.127,"text":"謝謝主席,請王部長"},{"start":17.91,"end":18.63,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":40.823,"end":62.571,"text":"對員們對於火災現場的狀況無法正確判斷,造成了市民弟兄弟離難的悲劇。所以我們今天針對28之十四及三十一、三十九條要來修正。針對於工廠的危險物品,我們如果沒有為如實申報的"},{"start":63.872,"end":81.694,"text":"審報不實的或違反審報的,我們原來是一到五萬,現在要五到五百萬。現在本席要提醒的就是說,因為有些不實的審報或是規避審報,尤其是有些物品如果沒有放到工廠內,譬如說是"},{"start":82.92,"end":90.027,"text":"武流業或倉儲業的倉儲設施理念,我們要如何規範管理,把範圍擴大?如果講起桃園的話,我統計的話,112年的2月,桃園就有2300家了。所以,我們是不是要擴大他們存放危險物品的地點、範圍跟他申報的場所呢?"},{"start":108.567,"end":128.733,"text":"事實上按照消防法的規定那個倉儲業者裡面的這些危險物品本來就都要符合消防法相關的這個可以存放的量所以你們有去檢查嗎?像昨天屏東的話這個就是倉儲這個大火而且乒乓乓的有爆炸的聲音這就是有危險物品啊"},{"start":129.213,"end":132.596,"text":"所以我們如何去加強管制他有沒有危險物品我們會去查因為他是屬於特登工廠那這個我們會去了解屏東的這個部分因為本席會這麼提就是說有些工廠就是規避我們的管理我們必須要全面去管理他如果危險物品存放到工廠的話是符合我們規定的但是放到倉儲業那邊是大量的那是怎麼辦呢"},{"start":152.355,"end":161.903,"text":"長處業,因為它有一些,像以桃園為例,它有的是放在特區,那有一些是在一般的區域,那我們這個也曾經跨部會去討論過,那確實這個地方的主管機關對長處業應該確實要加強盤查。"},{"start":168.308,"end":187.561,"text":"是所以我們把納管進去全面管理才是最安全的好不好是是這個我們都有跟地方政府提到大型的倉儲業要做好相關的管理所以我們現在除了說是開法之外我們還要完善去它所有這次的一個妥善性的一個改善"},{"start":188.582,"end":206.897,"text":"對,我覺得事先讓他們知道要申報,事先告訴他們要怎麼做管理。他存放的地點除了工廠還有可能是倉儲,把倉儲放進去,倉儲的設施直接放進去。這是安全最重要的。再來本席要提個老問題啦,就是停電的問題。"},{"start":208.988,"end":235.282,"text":"部長,我們知道臺電第一線員工他們在執行這個搶修、維修等等的工程,他們是非常辛苦的,疲於奔命。但是能源政策啊,這個規劃要規劃得好,如果規劃得很爛的話,他們真的是辛苦再辛苦,又危險。那尤其是現在我們包括我們的整個臺電完善配電的設施的維修,還有加強這個維修啊,"},{"start":236.102,"end":265.303,"text":"幫我們討厭這幾天啊你看看十幾次的停電啊那所以我們在2018年的時候就有配電系統的這個強振計畫在2023年的話我們還有再提了五年的配電系統的升級計畫這個就是要來減少我們停電的發生喔那尤其是這個2023年提的這個提升升級的這個配電這個強振計畫那未來我們會減少到多少呢"},{"start":267.429,"end":270.05,"text":"會減少到多少?現在沒有辦法講數字,但是確實在配電系統這個部分,我們盡量讓它可以自動來偵測,或者如果有壞掉可以自動轉換相關的設備,確實經費裡面有增加,趕快來做相關的汰換。」"},{"start":287.097,"end":313.294,"text":"所以我們看以前的資料我特別去調了一些資料配電系統這個停電的次數如果在2020年到2023年的配電系統停電的次數是有減少看起來是有減少但是部長你再近看一下如果超過500戶的這個數量是增加的這代表著什麼範圍增加影響的戶數也在增加"},{"start":314.813,"end":316.534,"text":"三十一條之十四、第三十一條及第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":332.944,"end":333.244,"text":"新達電廠一號、二號機要除役,還有民營的"},{"start":354.151,"end":360.674,"text":"賣寮電廠一號機、二號機合約也都到期了,再加上河山廠一號機也將在七月都除役,這個總會減少的總量是315萬瓦,但是我們看到你在增加的這些其他的店裡面已經可以補這個缺口的部分,您說你民營的部分的話有這個"},{"start":377.302,"end":402.079,"text":"新霸、豐德三號機、大潭七號、九號機、新興達一號機,這個補上來的有443萬瓦的電力來補足。雖然說新發電的多於這個要停掉的這個電力,但是我們擔心的就是備轉容量的問題。在415的時候備轉容量只剩下2.8%,"},{"start":404.501,"end":433.337,"text":"現在如果這些東西補上來的話,我們備轉容量應該平均要多少才能穩定?415這個部分確實是因為基礎壞掉,那個地震造成的增加的基礎壞掉,所以才會在瞬間有這個備轉容量降得比較低。至於我們講的到今年的我們新增的基礎確實比除一的基礎多,那這個備轉容量的部分我們都會維持在這個10%。一般要多少?"},{"start":433.697,"end":456.397,"text":"才能夠穩定的配電輸電的。」因為我們的12%到15%嘛現在你看你只有2.8%這是很危險的何況今年這麼多要除役合約到期的你雖然有其他電補上來但是但是你還要試營你要試轉要商轉要點火還要試運試轉這種情形的話會不會中斷斷層的話補不上來這個都要"},{"start":459.099,"end":459.979,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":490.503,"end":491.363,"text":"第三十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"151626","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151626","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb313e8245af5381b6e6abc9c09ba589754eadb1108e4b844325d5d57c87ccf072a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"10:19:19 - 10:27:51","影片長度":"00:08:32","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":512,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:27:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:19:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":415,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（10時19分）主席好。各位官員、各位委員先進，大家早安、大家好，有請部長跟國土署署長。"],["主席：好，請部長，還有國土署吳署長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝部長。今天本席特別來這邊質詢，是針對過去一直以來很多媒體上的一些假新聞，而且是民進黨黨中央對本席的一些抹黑造謠和很多不實的訊息，本席希望今天能做個澄清，並且做一個嚴正的檢討。先請問部長，你認不認識簡報上的這位仁兄？"],["林部長右昌：我想這位大家應該多少都認識，這是發言人吳崢。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。那我們簡單播一下影片。","（播放影片）"],["張委員智倫：感謝大家的觀賞，請問部長有掌握這部影片所講述的內容嗎？是不是請署長說明一下？"],["吳署長欣修：他指的好像是灰磘那一件。"],["張委員智倫：我先跟署長報告，這部影片是民進黨4月15號在黨中央辦的記者會，它是從7分50秒到9分50秒，我是完整的呈現，只是把影片的速度加快一點。請問署長，這件事情你要不要現在鄭重來澄清？你什麼時候到本席的辦公室？我對於中和灰磘段有沒有對你施壓？請你簡單而非常慎重地跟大家說明一下。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，我到目前都還沒有進過您的辦公室。"],["張委員智倫：好，那你是不是可以再跟大家澄清一下，請問本席有沒有像民進黨吳姓發言人講的，有要求你到本席的辦公室來針對中和灰磘段……就是本席還有署長，地點是本席辦公室，針對中和灰磘段有沒有對你施壓？有沒有這件事情？請你再說明一次。"],["吳署長欣修：委員都還沒有找過我談過這件事。"],["張委員智倫：部長、署長，所以這很明顯，今天謝謝署長的澄清。這很明顯就是民進黨的假訊息，長期對國民黨的立委抹黑和造謠，所以請署長在這邊公開譴責這件事情，這樣的事情可以允許發生嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為這不是我的職權，我只是要說明您沒有來找過我談這件事情。"],["張委員智倫：那本席就覺得非常特別啊！難道是你們平常就有在跟民進黨黨團、民進黨中央做密切的聯絡，不然這位發言人憑什麼說他知道署長的行程？是不是有對你們施壓？請問這樣能保持行政中立嗎？你們平常有沒有把你們內部的資訊、署長的行程提供給民進黨中央？請回答。"],["吳署長欣修：沒有。"],["張委員智倫：好險你說沒有，如果你說有的話，那也請提供給國民黨黨團一份。是不是你回去要調查一下，針對這樣的資料提供不實，是不是內部應該要來做檢討？這樣子去擋地方的建設，難道是因為本席對中和的污水下水道從民國93年實施到現在都沒有完成，還有10萬的住戶沒有完成，還是因為灰磘段從104年的建設案就擋到現在，連民進黨的江永昌委員也開過四次協調會，這些資料都有，其實本席現在關心很多的建設案，根本還來不及找你討論這些事情，結果就被民進黨抹黑跟造謠。請問一下署長，你要如何杜絕這樣的事情？請回答。"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，第一個，其實我們也沒有擋過中和任何下水道的案子，這一切都照新北市政府的既定進度，我們提供補助。第二個……"],["張委員智倫：署長，我知道你沒有擋，可是照這樣子抹黑造謠的方式，那不是片面的在擋中和的地方建設嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：沒有……"],["張委員智倫：署長，我給你兩個方式來做，第一個，當行政院被抹黑的時候，是不是應該發新聞稿來澄清？甚至之前在選舉期間，其實行政部門也可以提告啊！請問你要選擇哪一種方式來澄清？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，因為不是我們自己行政院被抹黑這件事情，其實我也是到今天才知道有這一段新聞影片，因為這不是屬於行政院的新聞，所以我們也沒有相關的說明。"],["張委員智倫：請問部長，你們一般的SOP是這樣子做嗎？難道中央政府被抹黑造謠的時候，你們完全不去看這些抹黑照，而且是民進黨黨部開的記者會、是發言人開的記者會，你們完全沒有掌握這樣的訊息嗎？完全不澄清嗎？"],["林部長右昌：委員，這個針對個案的部分，而且這個不是內政部，也不是國土署發的，所以這個不是要去澄清我們的部分。"],["張委員智倫：我剛剛已經舉報有這樣的事情，你剛剛就看到了，還是本席要再播一次給你看？"],["林部長右昌：委員，這並不是內政部的發言，也不是國土署的發言，這是個案，這是……"],["張委員智倫：那意思就是說這樣的事情會一直沒辦法去解決，為什麼本席要這樣問你？我今天本來要對你提出一個譴責案，因為你過去當過民進黨的秘書長，也當過民進黨的代理主席，未來也即將可能接任民進黨的秘書長，本席希望的是我們好好來推地方的建設，好好為地方來努力、來打拼，不要用這種故意惡意抹黑誣衊的手法來擋地方的建設，你到底提供中和未來的發展、未來的方向是什麼？請部長來回答一下，是不是應該要尊重國會？這樣子抹黑造謠的情況，是不是應該要杜絕？我應該要請部長說明，因為署長是行政官員，可是部長明明就知道這種事情不應該發生，所以我今天本來要提出一個譴責案，但是因為召委說今天要審預算，所以不提譴責案，不然的話……所以部長你是不是要再說明一下，這種事情要怎麼處理？"],["林部長右昌：委員，如果今天這個新聞是我們內政部或者是國土署發的……"],["張委員智倫：這個東西，我跟你講明顯……"],["林部長右昌：可是問題在於它並不是。"],["張委員智倫：很明顯的這不只一條新聞，這到底有幾條新聞？非常多的新聞啊！你們內政部完全沒有掌握輿情分析嗎？"],["林部長右昌：不是，委員你對象可能找錯人了。"],["張委員智倫：他說你有被施壓耶！"],["林部長右昌：部長不介入個案，而且剛剛在講這個新聞並不是……"],["張委員智倫：所以部長你是不處理嗎？你的意思是指你不現在嗎？"],["林部長右昌：不是，我要處理什麼？"],["張委員智倫：你要來公開，我剛剛講了啊！當我們國民黨的委員或是候選人對行政部門提出的質疑是不真實的時候，你們會發新聞稿澄清，或者有時候你們直接就提告啊！那為什麼這件事情出現的時候，你們完全不澄清、不提告？"],["林部長右昌：不是，委員，你的對象可能真的搞錯了，今天不是內政部也不是國土署發的啊！"],["張委員智倫：那以後民進黨黨中央亂抹黑你們、亂說你們去幫誰護航、亂說你們幫誰施壓，你們也完全不處理嗎？你的意思是這樣子嗎？"],["林部長右昌：沒有，尊重委員啦！如果他是針對你的話，就尊重委員你的……"],["張委員智倫：不是，我今天講的是國會的尊嚴，今天你會讓民進黨中央發這樣子的新聞稿去做這樣的指控，未來政黨會輪替，每一個委員都有可能遇到相關的事情，所以我今天為的是國會的尊嚴來這邊跟你請教。"],["林部長右昌：委員，黨是黨，政是政啦！"],["張委員智倫：你未來不是會接任民進黨的秘書長嗎？這樣黨政怎麼分離？"],["林部長右昌：不是啊，黨是黨，政是政啊！黨政本來就是分離的啊！"],["主席（李委員柏毅代）：謝謝林右昌部長，張智倫委員抱歉，因為時間超過非常多……"],["張委員智倫：拜託部長，這我會常常跟你請益，拜託你再好好處理一下。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員質詢……"],["張委員智倫：今天有明確的澄清了，謝謝署長。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員質詢，謝謝林右昌部長，謝謝署長。","接下來請張宏陸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-14","speakers":["吳琪銘","莊瑞雄","羅美玲","陳玉珍","黃捷","陳培瑜","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","吳沛憶","王美惠","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","李柏毅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","黃國昌","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳菁徽","陳冠廷","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案；二、審查內政\n部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)\n行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六\n條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國\n籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員\n林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員莊\n瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案、 (十五)委員林岱樺等\n17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四\n條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":2.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.941593750000001,"end":9.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.45971875,"end":26.929718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.28409375,"end":29.832218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.832218750000003,"end":29.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.35096875,"end":38.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.408468750000004,"end":43.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.74971875,"end":48.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.34784375,"end":52.275968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.954718750000005,"end":57.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.03471875,"end":57.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.422843750000006,"end":57.760343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.87846875,"end":58.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.806593750000005,"end":60.392843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.46034375000001,"end":63.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.025343750000005,"end":63.548468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.548468750000005,"end":63.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.59909375,"end":63.666593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.666593750000004,"end":64.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.72971875,"end":66.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.81784375000001,"end":77.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.37284375,"end":110.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.66346875,"end":113.98784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.57846875000001,"end":126.61034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.30221875000001,"end":129.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.00221875,"end":136.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.33034375,"end":136.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.83659375000002,"end":139.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.26659375,"end":139.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.12721875,"end":141.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.57846875,"end":157.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.77409375000002,"end":165.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.86159375,"end":180.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.12721875,"end":167.14409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.19471875000002,"end":167.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.61034375,"end":187.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.15346875,"end":188.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.75659375,"end":232.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.16346875000002,"end":233.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.10409375,"end":246.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.26721875,"end":260.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.19284375,"end":262.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.60596875000005,"end":264.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.41159375,"end":264.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.27221875000004,"end":269.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.19971875000005,"end":275.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.39721875000004,"end":276.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.16909375,"end":279.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.36284375,"end":281.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.92784375,"end":284.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.61534375,"end":284.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.66159375,"end":285.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.04971875,"end":287.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.59346875,"end":297.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.39784375,"end":299.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.49471875,"end":299.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.15284375000005,"end":300.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.94596875,"end":308.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.80971875,"end":313.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.51784375,"end":320.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.83346875,"end":331.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.09721875,"end":344.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.92221875,"end":366.70784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.51784375,"end":385.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.03409375,"end":389.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.05034375,"end":389.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.08409375,"end":389.16846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.16846875000005,"end":391.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.26534375,"end":391.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.42971875,"end":395.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.67784375,"end":397.99409375000005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內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":491.718,"end":497.301,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"}]}},{"id":"151625","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151625","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3cb60672b31d327e76abc9c09ba589754eadb1108e4b844326bac54d7216414185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"10:08:36 - 10:19:03","影片長度":"00:10:27","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":627,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:19:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:08:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":390,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（10時8分）謝謝主席，有請內政部。"],["主席：請部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好。我想要請教一下，我們昨天看到地震，大家都很害怕，一直震造成花蓮的兩棟大樓倒塌，好險沒有人傷亡。有很多房子因為結構受損，大家都有貼紅單、黃單這些警示單。我想要請問部長，這些危樓已經嚴重危害公共安全，你們有沒有要求拆除的期程？可以補強的建築物有沒有補強的作業規劃？再來，關於這些房子的拆除費用，這些災民唯一的房子都毀了，經濟上都相當困難，內政部有沒有考慮全額補助拆除的費用？請問部長。"],["林部長右昌：好，謝謝。這個部分，中央也一再要求花蓮縣政府要加速拆除的工作，特別是傾倒的這兩棟樓。另外，委員詢問有沒有補助拆除的費用，我們是全額補助，所以這部分是沒有問題的。至於補強部分，依照現有補強的相關補助辦法，經過技師或專業人士評估之後，如果有需要補強的地方，且評估之後是可以補強的，就進行補強，如果不能補強，一樣要拆掉。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，但要有一個拆除的期程，因為這些房子傾倒，大家經過也很害怕，萬一倒下來是很危險的。"],["林部長右昌：我們要求地方政府要加速，的確是已經比較慢了，今天會開始拆除。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝部長。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：4月23日富凱大飯店倒塌，它是民國69年建造，到現在已經是44年屋齡，足見危老都更的重要性。我們看臺北市光25年以上的房子就高達71萬棟，而且這些房子都是在921之前建造的，大多沒有經過耐震檢驗，萬一這些在雙北的房子倒塌了，後果真是不堪設想。請問內政部有沒有去瞭解民眾不願意都更的原因是什麼？還有政府的因應措施是什麼？"],["林部長右昌：委員，我先跟你說明一下，這棟是不是願意都更，這個我們不清楚，因為都更涉及個人的土地跟建物的財產，除了官辦的都更是由政府發動之外，自辦的都更當然就要由財產所有權人來提出申請，而且還必須整合，因為他可能不是單一所有權人，可能涉及很多所有權人，所以這個部分可能要瞭解一下他是不是有曾經提出更新的案子。第二點，現在我們也積極在推動都市更新工作，包括制定了危老重建條例，所以現在危老重建的案數比較多，我想更新最主要的困難在於整合，也就是民眾意見的整合。"],["麥委員玉珍：如果有補助的話，很多人應該也想要都更。根據我的瞭解，臺中也有很多都更的案子，關鍵就在於政府的補助，因為很多建商估價後，到最後都是超出大家的期望，所以請內政部針對後續有關危老重建的改進措施，給我一個書面報告，好嗎？"],["林部長右昌：好，沒問題。"],["麥委員玉珍：再來，有關居住正義問題，上一次我也詢問過，但是你們並沒有給我真正的回應。現在民眾要租房子，最擔心的是價錢不透明，導致租戶的價格都不一樣，民眾對於社會住宅補助的資格審查、補貼的金額及流程有很多疑惑，還有「社會住宅租金分級收費原則」的研商會議，決議以身分別作為社會住宅租金標準，但是這和住宅法第二十五條第三項規定的精神，依承租人薪水及負擔能力訂定收費標準有所違背，當時我也請問部長這樣考量的原因是什麼，但是都沒有得到正面的回應。"],["林部長右昌：委員可能誤會了，其實內政部在訂定相關收費標準時，這些因素通通都有考慮進去，目前有所謂身分別的部分，大概就三個縣市，即臺北、新北跟桃園，而這三個城市、直轄市的狀況也不一，像新北是今年才開始，採取的是一個非常嚴格的限制，即身分別加上收入，但實際上還是以身分別……"],["麥委員玉珍：對，但我們認為以收入為標準，比較能真正照顧到弱勢。"],["林部長右昌：倒不是這樣講，其實我們現在的收費標準都已經有cover了，甚至是放寬到所謂的邊緣戶，之前最大的問題大概是所謂的低收入戶跟中低收入戶身分認定比較嚴格，現在我們已經把身分放寬到邊緣戶，是可以把它cover進來，所以針對這部分，其實我們已經做了很大的改善。另外在實務上，包括臺北市跟桃園市，雖然是用所謂的所得，但執行上有發生許多困擾跟問題，這一部分也必須被正視。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，但就像剛才部長說的，每一個縣市申請不一樣、不一致，這也造成民眾的困擾。因為時間關係，最後一題想要請教部長，就是今天大家都很關注有關未成年歸化的問題，因為民法修正，未成年的定義從20歲下修到18歲，而國籍法僅規定「未成年」，導致原本很多要申請歸化為我國國籍的民眾權益受損。根據我的瞭解，疫情時間，很多未成年子女都在國外，立後想要回來臺灣歸化，但現在我們的民法已經修法將未成年從20歲下修到18歲，造成很多子女要回臺歸化為臺灣國籍受到限制，請問部長有什麼看法？"],["陳代理司長子和：報告委員，民法把成年年齡調降為18歲，所以國籍法一樣配合把年齡調降為18歲；調降為18歲之後，外國人或本國人18歲以上就有行為能力，我們認為他已經有行為能力，就不符合我們照顧這些未滿18歲未成年人歸化國籍的事宜。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以我們希望未成年的定義是20歲以下，這樣20歲以下就也是未成年，如果限於18歲以下，會造成很多問題。現在我們面臨少子化問題，應該也很希望更多我們的子女歸化為臺灣人，但是現在就是有這樣的情況，這個問題等一下逐條討論時，我們再來跟部長討論。"],["林部長右昌：委員，我再簡單補充說明，剛剛提到的最大問題，就是如果這樣修正的話，就跟民法規定不相符，民法規定是把20歲調降為18歲，代表18歲以上就具有行為能力，如果具有行為能力，還要依附父母或者養父母來申請歸化，那麼這跟保護未成年權益以及剛剛提到的立法意旨並不相符，在這邊跟委員做這樣的補充，謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：第四條的規定原來就有，不用再修法，就是「未婚未成年之外國人」，我們就依這樣的規定，那就不用修法到18歲以下，我的意思是這樣。"],["林部長右昌：是，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員的質詢。","下一位請張智倫委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-14","speakers":["吳琪銘","莊瑞雄","羅美玲","陳玉珍","黃捷","陳培瑜","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","吳沛憶","王美惠","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","李柏毅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","黃國昌","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳菁徽","陳冠廷","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案；二、審查內政\n部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)\n行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六\n條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國\n籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員\n林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員莊\n瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案、 (十五)委員林岱樺等\n17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四\n條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.06471875,"end":0.09846875000000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":1.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.19971875,"end":0.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.8534687500000002,"end":1.8872187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.8872187500000002,"end":1.9209687500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.9209687500000001,"end":3.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.0222187500000004,"end":2.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.7134687500000005,"end":7.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.86096875,"end":9.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.14346875,"end":9.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.24471875,"end":9.801593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.970343750000001,"end":19.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.38659375,"end":22.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.28909375,"end":33.612218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.98346875,"end":54.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.87471875000001,"end":58.890968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.94159375,"end":75.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.46221875,"end":76.69409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.04846875,"end":98.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.47971875,"end":101.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.10784375,"end":116.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.60346875,"end":122.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.81346875000001,"end":133.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.07346875000002,"end":139.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.41846875000002,"end":140.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.54909375,"end":141.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.03846875000002,"end":193.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.83784375000002,"end":155.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.99221875,"end":196.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.89471875,"end":225.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.75096875000003,"end":249.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.74721875,"end":284.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.16784375000003,"end":285.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.04534375000003,"end":324.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.89159375,"end":341.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.61471875,"end":348.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.56721875,"end":383.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.00471875000005,"end":388.29096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.54409375,"end":388.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.69596875,"end":395.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":389.35409375,"end":390.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.27721875000003,"end":430.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.47409375,"end":434.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.23721875,"end":437.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.80221875,"end":447.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.03284375000004,"end":512.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.48596875,"end":518.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.0047187499999,"end":529.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.1928437500001,"end":533.1628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":533.83784375,"end":544.8572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.51534375,"end":568.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.85346875,"end":573.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.90346875,"end":587.5678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":588.0065937500001,"end":598.3003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":598.46909375,"end":606.4678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.9109687499999,"end":611.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":611.83409375,"end":619.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.90034375,"end":626.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.00159375,"end":620.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.9709687500001,"end":627.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.9665937500001,"end":628.2197187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.892,"end":18.4,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":19.677,"end":46.417,"text":"花蓮兩棟大樓倒塌好險就是還沒有人傷亡因為都有很多房子因為結構收血還有紅單大家都在紅單黃單來去有警示單但是想要請問部長這些圍樓已經嚴重了而且就是危害到公共安全了有沒有要求拆除的"},{"start":47.898,"end":57.225,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":77.076,"end":105.468,"text":"好謝謝我想這個部分中央也一再的要求花蓮縣政府要加速拆除的一個工作那特別是這個秦島的這兩棟樓那另外是我有詢問到有沒有補助這個拆除的費用我們是全額補助所以這部分是沒有問題另外是補強的部分補強部分就是要依照我們現在相關的一個規定我們有補強的補助的相關的辦法"},{"start":106.929,"end":112.256,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":122.827,"end":131.138,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":139.485,"end":144.433,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":155.329,"end":161.314,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":183.752,"end":193.276,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":212.503,"end":216.987,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":239.444,"end":245.217,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":250.528,"end":256.633,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":274.189,"end":278.156,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":285.313,"end":291.798,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":310.413,"end":317.22,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。六、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":330.974,"end":335.517,"text":"依承住人的薪水及負擔能力、訂定收費標準所違背的。請問部長有沒有考慮的是什麼,但是都沒有得到正面的回應?"},{"start":349.104,"end":367.94,"text":"委員你可能誤會了,其實我們內政部在訂定相關的一個收費的一個標準,其實這些因素我們通通都考慮進去。那目前有所謂的身份的部分大概是兩個縣市,三個啦,這個臺北、新北跟桃園。"},{"start":369.061,"end":372.164,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":384.333,"end":388.057,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":404.991,"end":414.313,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":431.536,"end":437.222,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":455.427,"end":463.731,"text":"所以最後一題因為時間的關係想要請教部長大家今天都很注重的就是關於就是未成年規劃的部分因為民法的修正未成年的定義是從20歲下修到18歲導致原來很多人要申請規劃我們國籍的民眾"},{"start":477.397,"end":484.56,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":505.248,"end":509.877,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計1案。"},{"start":517.906,"end":544.751,"text":"報告委員按照這個林法他把那個成年年齡都調降為18歲所以我們這個國籍法也一樣配合把它調降為18歲那因為調降為18歲之後這個外國人或者是本國人的話他18歲以上就有行為能力所以我們覺得他已經有行為能力了就不符合我們照顧這些未滿18歲未成年人來規劃國籍的事宜"},{"start":545.578,"end":548.299,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":569.079,"end":578.523,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":598.79,"end":608.135,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"}]}},{"id":"151624","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151624","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3c33663d0bbe06a095a1f541440a910baeadb1108e4b84432682c3a9a74037a9e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:17:41 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10:28:02","影片長度":"00:10:21","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案4案。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":621,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:28:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:17:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":437,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時17分）謝謝主席，請主委。"],["主席：好，有請主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：陳委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委早安。主委，這邊請教您，您在業務報告的時候曾經答復說如果國內的核電廠要延役，在安全、專業上是不是可行，要視個別電廠的運轉情況而定，我相信主委跟本席一樣也認為安全是最重要的，在這邊請教主委，就算修法，已經除役的核電廠可以再延役嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這個……"],["陳委員秀寳：如果修法通過，主委您認為哪些核電的機組有可能申請延役？"],["陳主任委員東陽：應該是核三，難度比較簡單是核三，核二相對比較稍微難一點，大概是這樣。"],["陳委員秀寳：依我們現行的法令規定，核電廠在執照到期前多久要提出？如果要申請延役的話。"],["陳主任委員東陽：5年。"],["陳委員秀寳：如果有黨團或委員想要提出修法這個5年的期限、時間，對於現在已經在運轉的機組，將來它面臨到除役的問題，現在提修法來得及嗎？來不及喔？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。"],["陳委員秀寳：我們國內有企業指出，主張以黃金比例來配置能源，核能可以是綠能的盟友，而非敵人，但是如果只以現在的核三來延役，主委您覺得能夠做到所謂黃金能源配置的比例嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我們核三廠就是6%，大概就是占我們臺灣所有能源的6%左右，它還是有一定的限度。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委，以您的專業來看，我們國內跟各國一樣，對於再生能源的發展、能源轉型都一直非常努力，希望來抵消這些碳排，因為我們有一個目標是2050年淨零排放，如果我們以剛剛講的再生能源的發展來做能源轉型，還有一些比較難以抵消的部分，我們用負碳技術以及自然碳匯的方式來抵，而不用核能，主委您覺得2050年的淨零排放真的無法達成嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這部分也要看新科技未來發展的速度，比如說氫能、比如說地熱。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委，依您來看，我們現在再生能源發展的技術一直在精進，是不是有機會在2050年淨零排放達成的目標裡面排除核能？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我想也不能完全排除，按照目前的技術，未來總是有很多的可能，那麼……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以您覺得這也是樂觀的吧？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是有這個可能。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，為什麼提到這個部分呢？因為這段時間的地震讓我們臺灣民眾的心理壓力非常大，常常睡覺都睡不安穩，以我們臺灣整個地層的結構，發展核能需要非常非常謹慎，我想主委您也同意。"],["陳主任委員東陽：非常同意。"],["陳委員秀寳：我們進入今天的主題，今天是關於含氚廢水的排放，過去我們都會聚焦在福島核電廠的含氚廢水排放，但是日本的媒體近日指出，中國2023年版的核能年鑑有揭露2022年中國核電廠排放的水裡面含輻射物質，氚的數量跟福島電廠排放的含氚廢水上限來比，超標高達9倍，甚至中國浙江的泰山核電廠在2022年排出的含氚量是202兆貝克，相對於福島核電廠來講，高了9.1倍。主委，這個排放水含氚的量，以核安會的專業來看，對周邊的國家跟海域是安全的嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：依目前的檢測，因為我們的海測點有107點，目前大概都是安全的。剛才委員提到的問題，我想我們後續再來研議一下，看看有沒有辦法再有更進一步的資料。"],["陳委員秀寳：主委，以核電廠的運轉來說，其實排放水裡面都會有這樣的物質，但是我們經過層層的過濾，將輻射物質降到最低才排放出來，但因為氚這個物質本來就比較不好排除，所以它會變成一個指標，以檢驗排放水裡面的氚來看這樣的水排放出來是不是會對周邊海域的物質有一些危害。如果說電廠的排放水裡面這些含氚量是必然的，以我國周邊國家的核電廠的排放情況，包括含輻射量的質量、整體排放量，核安會揭露這部分的相關訊息給民眾時，是不是一定要讓民眾有正確的認知？所以核安會的監測入口網的資訊是不是應該調整？而不是只以日本的排放為主，是不是應該要揭露周邊國家排放的狀況？而且要做即時示警，降低民眾的疑慮以及恐慌，不是只有針對日本的排放，主委您覺得呢？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我完全同意。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以希望這個能做調整。"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，我們會來做一點修改。"],["陳委員秀寳：來做調整，讓民眾瞭解有這樣的訊息，而且我們要做正確訊息的布達，讓他們瞭解不用過度焦慮。","在4月20號的報導有指出，福島核廢水的儲罐出現腐蝕，即使東電說沒問題，但我們核安會有沒有針對這個腐蝕的狀況做進一步的瞭解？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是，我們有注意到這個新聞，後續有在看東電公司相關的網頁，也會持續關注它的後續情況，特別是安全的問題……"],["陳委員秀寳：因為我們不是IAEA的成員，所以我們可能對國際上一些原子能的狀況沒辦法馬上有第一手的消息，雖然我們沒辦法有第一手的消息，但我們如果第二手知道這樣訊息之後也必須要趕快去瞭解整個事實、實際的情況是如何，才能決定如何因應。我強調這個部分是說，其實一般民眾對這樣比較高度專業的一些訊息不瞭解，不瞭解就會覺得恐慌、就會焦慮，所以核安會應該針新聞還有一些比較時效性的訊息加快回應速度，減低民眾的疑慮跟焦慮。","再下來我要請教主委，烏克蘭的札波羅熱核電廠附近近期遭受無人機攻擊，國際能源總署也已經示警，甚至表示這是一條極度危險戰線的開端。過去本席也詢問過很多次，我國周邊的核電廠如果發生事故而有輻射外洩的狀況，對我國跟周邊國家都是災難。俄烏戰爭如果真的有核電廠遭受攻擊而有輻射外洩的狀況發生，我們受的影響會到怎樣的程度？我們關注國際局勢，要如何因應這樣的時事做演習、教育宣導或是必要的措施？這個部分你們有沒有規劃？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的，我們每年定期進行，今年會做核安30號演習。剛才委員提到的烏俄戰爭，受最大的、即時的影響應該是歐洲大陸。葛羅西的訪問我看了相關的video，全世界很關切，因為這個不僅是俄羅斯跟烏克蘭的問題，也是整個歐洲甚至全世界的問題……"],["陳委員秀寳：這是影響整個國際的。"],["陳主任委員東陽：對，它總是有風險。"],["陳委員秀寳：本席提出這樣的要求就是希望你們因應及規劃，萬一有這樣的情事發生，我們國家跟當地雖然有一點距離，但是民眾還是會恐慌、會焦慮，因此我們應該怎樣適時地做教育宣導讓民眾可以安心？或是讓民眾瞭解發生這樣的事情如何自保或是如何因應？這個部分也希望你們有這樣的訊息傳遞給民眾。"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，我們會裡面的網頁完全有這樣的訊息，但是我在這裡很快的跟委員報告，一般來講，第一時間沒有需要緊急避難，你只要在房子裡面就好了，我們國家會針對環境的輻射、食用水、食品做一些檢測，暫時無須恐慌。"],["陳委員秀寳：這就是需要給民眾的一些教育跟宣導。最後本席要強調，核能安全是我們最高的原則，希望核安會可以善盡你們的職責，堅守你們的職責，守護臺灣，守護我們的國民。謝謝主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝陳委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳秀寳委員。","主席在這邊宣告一下，在羅廷瑋委員質詢完之後我們休息5分鐘。"],["主席（陳委員秀寳代）：接下來請林宜瑾召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葉元之","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","范雲","張嘉郡","吳春城"],"page_start":251,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會\n列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查 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來做調整讓民眾去了解說有這樣的訊息而且我們要做正確的這樣的訊息的布達讓他們了解說不用過度的焦慮那在4月20的報導裡面有指出福島核廢水的儲罐出現腐蝕那即使說東電他說是沒問題的那我們核安衛有沒有針對這個腐蝕的狀況來做進一步的了解"},{"start":380.32,"end":394.849,"text":"是的,我們有在注意到這個新聞那麼後續有在看這個東電這個公司相關的網頁那麼也會持續的來關注後續他的情況那特別是安全的問題"},{"start":395.709,"end":400.39,"text":"因為我們不是IAEA的成員所以說我們很多的訊息可能對我們國際上一些原子能的狀況沒有辦法馬上有第一手的消息但是我們沒有辦法有第一手的消息之後我們如果知道有這樣的就是說我們輾轉的不是輾轉可能第二手知道這樣的訊息之後我們也必須要趕快去了解事實的整個的實際的情況是如何我們才能夠來決定如何因應"},{"start":423.275,"end":436.566,"text":"我強調這個部分是說其實我們一般的民眾就是這樣比較高度的一些專業的一些訊息他們不了解那不了解就會覺得恐慌就會焦慮所以核安會這邊應該針對說我們新聞還有一些比較時效性的這樣的訊息我們要加快我們回應的速度來減低民眾的疑慮跟他們的焦慮那再下來我這邊要請教主委"},{"start":448.254,"end":459.422,"text":"針對烏克蘭的扎婆羅勒核電廠附近近期遭受無人機攻擊國際能源總署也已經示警甚至表示這是一條極度危險戰線的開端過去本席也詢問過很多次就是我國周邊的核電廠"},{"start":468.188,"end":487.463,"text":"如果說有發生事故而有輻射外溢的這個狀況呢這樣對我國跟周邊的國家都是災難喔那所以今天這個俄烏戰爭的這個事故如果真的有輻射這個核電廠的這個遭受攻擊而有輻射外洩的這樣狀況發生的話"},{"start":489.585,"end":489.885,"text":"公務預算解凍案"},{"start":509.215,"end":521.702,"text":"我們今年會做核安30號演習剛才委員提到的烏俄戰爭最大的影響即時的應該是歐洲大陸葛羅希他的訪問其實我看了相關的影片"},{"start":530.407,"end":542.744,"text":"那麼其實是全世界很關切因為這個不僅是俄羅斯跟烏克蘭的問題其實也是整個歐洲甚至全世界的問題這是影響整個國際的對對對"},{"start":546.268,"end":572.078,"text":"總是有風險本席在這邊提出這樣子的要求就是希望你們能做因應做規劃是說萬一有這樣的情勢發生那我們國家的距離雖然是有一點距離但是民眾還是會恐慌會焦慮那我們應該適時的做出怎樣的教育宣導讓我們民眾可以安心或是讓我們民眾去了解說發生這樣的事情我們如何自保或是如何因應這個部分也希望說你們有這樣的訊息來傳遞給民眾"},{"start":575.739,"end":591.947,"text":"我們會裡面的網頁是有完全這樣的訊息但是我在這裡很快的跟委員報告就是第一時間一般來講是沒有需要緊急的避難不需要你只要在房子裡面就好了那麼我們國家會針對環境的輻射"},{"start":595.646,"end":614.962,"text":"我們針對食用水、針對食品去做一些檢測那暫時無需恐慌對,這個就是需要給民眾的一些教育跟宣導那最後本席這邊要強調核能安全是我們最高的原則希望核安會這邊你們可以善盡你們職責堅守你們職責來守護台灣、守護我們的國民謝謝,謝謝主委謝謝陳主委"}]}},{"id":"151623","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151623","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3944c1f2951d1525fe793a383c05d564ceadb1108e4b844322bf7ee431a5d15725ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:16:54 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10:22:31","影片長度":"00:10:24","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案。\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員黃建賓等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-9"},"duration":624,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:22:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:12:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":298,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（10時12分）請部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長早。你有沒有感受到現在民怨滿深的？4月1日漲完電價之後，最近又有一些停電的狀況，民眾現在是受苦又受氣。可是我現在先提醒你一個點，我怎麼會看到經濟部的臉書上面跟民眾對幹呢？民眾連滑手機、打個鍵盤、使用3C產品都不行，被酸說什麼？是酸言酸語，這是跟民眾對幹嗎？我們打個電腦、滑個手機都不行嗎？"],["王部長美花：我想主要是希望大家能夠瞭解跟體諒台電在修復地震過後造成的這些損傷，其實台電是用……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，現在民眾是在抗議的，你有發現跳電或者停電跟民眾滑手機、用3C產品有什麼關係？"],["王部長美花：但是台電對於地震後的電力損傷，已經用最盡責的部分來處理，我們想讓大家知道這樣不是叫缺電，這樣叫趕快來做。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，經濟部跟台電的努力，尤其是基層的努力，我們是肯定的，沒有人罵台電的基層。現在是你們的臉書，是小編嗎？還是經濟部的態度？為什麼要跟民眾對幹呢？連滑個手機都要被你們酸言酸語，現在問的……"],["王部長美花：但是確實是……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，最重要的，一般民眾打打手機、滑滑手機、打鍵盤會造成停電、跳電嗎？你們說他們是酸言酸語。"],["王部長美花：我們是希望大家能夠體諒台電緊急把電力修復的辛苦，不要說成是缺電。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們來看台電總經理感性的發言，我不知道你有沒有被他感動到，他裡面引述了這幾天一直在瘋傳的投書，他提到這幾年停電的次數是減半的，可是報導多了一倍。可是很多民眾跟我反映，甚至打電話進來抗議這個投書跟內容，因為我們的感受就是前幾年一直在大停電啊！停的時間更長、次數是更多的啊！所以本席就上去台電的官網看，我怕誤會你們喔！我想會不會是我們問政問出問題來了，但看了一下，這個數據看起來沒有錯啊！如果從前面4年，102到105年，對照蔡英文當選之後的這幾年，從這個趨勢看起來好像有進步喔！這個就是投書的基礎，包括我想要去查，連經濟部、台電自己都發新聞稿說你們確實是有進步。可是看一下真正的真相，部長，我請問你一下，剛剛看的那一張圖，現在我用紅框把它框下來，像106年停電的時間16.89分鐘去跟前面比，下面為什麼有一個32.57分鐘，這到底是什麼事情？這個東西為什麼會單獨出來？為什麼那個東西沒有算進去呢？我重複一次，你用停電16.89分鐘去跟前面比，又註明一個32.57，你怎麼沒有算進去呢？這是什麼？粉飾太平嗎？認知作戰嗎？欺騙民眾嗎？"],["王部長美花：不是、不是。像106年數字的部分，下面指的是815那一次的事件。"],["張委員啓楷：815大停電，對不對？部長、部長……"],["王部長美花：這個下面委員也看到了……"],["張委員啓楷：現在最重要的是你為什麼沒有把它算進去？為什麼移花接木把它移走啦？"],["王部長美花：不是移花接木啦，我們也都有做這樣的說明，所以委員看到了，我們這裡也都加註說明。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，你們把它移到下面寫了三個說明，這要讓一般的民眾清楚，因為這個事情太重要了，你們現在一直把簡報中紅色框框的東西移走了，你們從基準點不對的狀況之下粉飾太平，一直說你們停電的時間是往下降的。我現在很清楚地跟你講，用106年為基準來看，那時候有815大停電，對不對？那一年每戶的停電時間是多少？32.57，是不是這樣？你為什麼把它移走呢？","好，我們來看110年發生了兩次大停電，513大停電跟517大停電，對不對？停電的時間多少？43分51秒，這個時間你們也沒有算進去啊！到了111年更離譜了，303大停電停91分鐘耶！一個半小時耶！你們竟然會把三個大停電的時間都移出去。我要問你，這不只是粉飾太平，我們來看一下，我們問一個最簡單的，大停電就不算停電，是不是？你們的標準是這樣嗎？"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，我們既然這樣寫，就是有特別說明這兩者不同，但是這不叫粉飾太平，我們也如實呈現了，我們也是參考其他國家的作法，像815這種中油的嚴重事故造成氣進不來等等，這個時間確實是很久沒有錯，可是這個跟……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，抱歉！到底是哪一個國家會把大停電的時間移除到外面去？這是不是一個簡單的……"],["王部長美花：它們不是移除啊！我們是分別計算，那所謂的……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我先跟你說明一下，人民這幾天打電話進來抗議或留言抗議的是什麼，明明在106年、110年跟111年有4次的大停電，時間都是很長的，你把它移走了；移走完之後，拿了一個不對的基準點，然後說這幾年停電的時間都是往下掉的，但你把實際的狀況加上去，明明就是增加嘛，對不對？"],["王部長美花：因為這個是電力維護，電網跟設備維護……"],["張委員啓楷：部長，我們讓民眾知道，第一個，把它移走，這個到底對不對？現在把它移走之後，你們全部算出來的都是失真失實的東西。第二個……"],["王部長美花：我們用兩種東西呈現，也有詳細地說明，我們沒有把它用不見了。"],["張委員啓楷：好，現在把它放回來給民眾知道，好不好？甚至不要變成只有等到總經理要請辭的時候，他說覺得感慨，我都不知道他為什麼要感慨啊？瘋傳的那個基準點是不對的，他明明知道這東西是不對的，他還感慨？"],["王部長美花：因為我們是告訴大家，原來從每年的兩萬多次到去年的六千多次，台電確實非常努力來解決各地電網事故等等的部分。"],["張委員啓楷：對啦，部長，你們現在有在努力。我現在是告訴你，如果把這4次的大停電算進去，你的平均停電時間是增加的；第二個，停電的次數也是增加的。我還幫你做了一個統計，當你把它加上去之後，每次加上去有時候是一個半小時，一個是43分鐘，一個是32分鐘。你看下一張，如果把它全部加上去之後，蔡英文任內跳電的次數，你把大停電真實的狀況加上去，是前面4年的2.2倍，時間更長了，是102到105年的2.6倍，不要講是你蓋牌，部長說有兩種……"],["王部長美花：不是！"],["張委員啓楷：問題是第二種才是一個真實的東西啊！"],["王部長美花：我們相關的跳電次數並不是原來的2.2倍。"],["張委員啓楷：現在更嚴重的是你們只有拿了第一種，把4次大停電的部分全部移出去了，然後跟人民講你是有進步的，其實真的有進步嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們在電網設備的維護上是有進步啊！從兩萬多次到現在的六千多。"],["張委員啓楷：有部分進步，可是如果很明確的從跳電次數、停電次數跟停電時間，顯然就是比較久啊！明明白白啊！跳電次數是比前4年多了2.2倍、時數是多了2.6倍。"],["王部長美花：委員講的跳電次數2.2倍，這個應該是不對的。"],["張委員啓楷：你把那4次算進去，平均起來就是這樣子嘛！所以你是不是……"],["王部長美花：沒有，次就是一次嘛。"],["張委員啓楷：第一個，部長先確認時間是對的嘛，對不對？加回去，時間確實是長的，不是像現在投書的那個內容，也不是像經濟部發了新聞稿說你們是進步非常多的，時間是往下掉。不是！時間是往上走的，對不對？時間我們有共識嘛，我們跟民眾講清楚，這是一個。第二個……"],["王部長美花：我們是讓大家知道……"],["張委員啓楷：時間我們有共識嘛，所以拜託一下，連監察院都糾正了，讓民眾知道真實的現象、真實的數據，不要讓人民覺得被矇騙了，這幾天電話是一直進來，臉書上面很多朋友都在講，人民的感受就是停電那麼多……"],["王部長美花：我們沒有矇騙大家，我們都有說明得很清楚。"],["張委員啓楷：他們的感受就是停電次數是增多的，特別是時間是長的，尤其是那4次的大停電，結果你把它蓋牌了，請把它改回來，好不好？"],["王部長美花：我沒有蓋牌。"],["張委員啓楷：怎麼沒有蓋牌呢？那就是不見啦！你自己發的新聞稿，還有這次的這個投書，你再看一下你們自己的總經理所講的，現在瘋傳的就是這一封信，對不對？好，本席非常明確地做一個要求，把這4次的大停電加回去給民眾看，好不好？這是一個真實面的呈現，讓民眾可以瞭解真實的狀況是怎麼樣。第二個，台電不要去誤導民眾，讓民眾覺得說你好像蓋牌，把真相蓋住了，你要去面對問題，才能夠解決問題，好不好？"],["王部長美花：沒有問題，我們一定會面對問題來解決問題。"],["張委員啓楷：讓人民知道真相，不是像你們發的新聞稿，也不是像那個投書裡面所講的，這幾年的停電時間是往下掉，而是往上走，好不好？我們清楚把它呈現，謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。","接下來我們請呂玉玲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-9","speakers":["邱議瑩","黃建賓","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林思銘","林岱樺","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","鄭正鈐","謝衣鳯","蔡易餘","何欣純","黃國昌","洪孟楷","黃捷","羅智強","牛煦庭","陳超明","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷","王美惠"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等 21案；二、審查：\n(一)行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(二)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員\n黃建賓等 17 人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案、(六)\n本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員蔡易\n餘等20 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。"},{"start":550.799,"end":552.62,"text":"凍結案 凍結案 凍結案 凍結案 凍結案 凍結案"},{"start":572.449,"end":573.73,"text":"三十一條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":589.042,"end":604.829,"text":"把這四次的大停電把他加回去給民眾看好不好這是一個真實面的呈現讓民眾可以瞭解說真實的狀況是什麼第二個台電不要去誤導民眾讓民眾覺得說你好像蓋牌把真相蓋住了你要去面對問題才能夠解決問題好不好"},{"start":606.513,"end":611.459,"text":"凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結案等21年度中央政府總預算凍結"}]}},{"id":"151621","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151621","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3596574f37c6acbc8b903698ddfaa754aeadb1108e4b844325dc42cf28b9098b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:08:45 - 10:19:35","影片長度":"00:10:50","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":650,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:19:35+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T10:08:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":484,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（10時8分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，你現在心情很輕鬆嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：要來立法院都不會很輕鬆。"],["王委員育敏：我想請問你，您對於要接任的邱泰源部長，你自己要不要專業比一比？你覺得你的專業比較強還是他的專業比較強？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，這無從比較啦。"],["王委員育敏：不敢比較還是無從比較？"],["薛部長瑞元：不敢比較。"],["王委員育敏：本席覺得你還滿認真的啦，就是什麼事情你都認真以待，這是一個非常好的特質，我當然希望新任的部長也像你一般認真，才扛得起衛福部這麼大的一個部門，因為衛福部的事情真的非常多！","本席首先還是要追一下寶林事件，我覺得寶林事件現在會不會變成無頭公案啊？到目前為止，有一度傳出警方說有重大發現，結果又無疾而終，又沒消沒息，這個案件到目前為止是非常重大的食安事件，從3月到現在已經通報35人，2人死亡，4個人在加護病房，而這4個人的狀況還不見得很樂觀，這麼重大的一個食安事件，到目前為止，完全沒有辦法跟外界交代邦克列酸的源頭在哪裡，一個多月了，到底現在卡在哪裡？部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：目前的話，衛福部這邊能調查的大概已經都調查完畢了，最後的話就是實際上在運作的廚師當時是怎麼樣做的，因為這是檢察機關在調查，檢察官並沒有把這個訊息透露給我們，所以我們也無從知道，現在大概到最後的偵查階段，我們也希望檢察機關如果偵查結束之後，看是否起訴、不起訴等等，案情就能夠比較明朗。"],["王委員育敏：本席覺得在這麼重大事件的偵辦過程當中，衛福部作為主管機關，但是檢調瞭解的內容卻沒有辦法跟你們一起合作，一起針對這些原因大家來反覆地探討，這個是不是有什麼問題？因為你這樣等於兩個是完全脫鉤，你完全沒有辦法掌握到可能的原因，它沒有再回來跟你做一些核對嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為這個偵查不公開，如果說檢方沒有主動要把訊息釋出的話，我們也無從去詢問。"],["王委員育敏：今天法務部有人來，對不對？檢察司的郭司長，我覺得針對這樣一個重大的案件應該是要通力合作吧？現在看起來就是各負責一邊，然後拼湊不出來這個圖像，沒辦法給國人交代，司長瞭解這個案件現在的最新狀況嗎？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，這個寶林的案子現在分別由臺北地檢跟士林檢察官在偵辦，士林檢察官因為是有死亡案子、有相驗案子，但不管怎麼講它都是一個偵查案件，那偵查案件就如同剛剛部長講的，因為涉及到偵查秘密的問題，當然檢察官在偵查當中的作為，包括鑑定、包括剛剛委員提問的，有關這些可能的污染源在哪裡……"],["王委員育敏：對，邦克列酸的源頭在哪裡？"],["郭司長永發：其實這可能都會跟衛福部這一邊會有所聯繫，因為那個是個案，個案的偵查細節如何，我們法務部其實不方便進去問它，這個部分臺高檢署也有督導偵辦。"],["王委員育敏：對，我要問的是邦克列酸的源頭是什麼，其實不是要問個案的細節，而這個部分我覺得應該是跨部會，你們都有責任好好地去偵辦，而不是說一句偵辦中，然後好像就沒事了，各做各的，我覺得這樣子要找出這個源頭應該是滿困難，因為到目前為止，一個多月過去了，拼湊不出這個圖像，也沒有辦法給國人一個交代，法務部應該回過頭去檢討，你們常常說一句個案偵查不公開，然後好像所有的人就不可以再往下去瞭解所有的內容，我覺得這樣好像是不對的，這件事情是食安事件，我們要瞭解的是那個源頭，這個不是涉及到個人的刑事案件，這個應該不太一樣吧？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，因為偵查這一個部分一定會跟衛福部合作。"],["王委員育敏：是啊，但是有嗎？你們兩邊有兜嗎？部長，你有得到法務部的訊息嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：有關於這一些科學證據等等的，雙方是有聯繫，這部分我們大概都已經把資料給檢方了，但檢方所調查的，就是那個個人的行為……"],["王委員育敏：他回饋回來……"],["薛部長瑞元：並沒有回饋給我們。"],["王委員育敏：我覺得這一件事情你們還要再去檢討，全國民眾都在等真正的原因是什麼，結果現在快要變無頭公案了，就是不知道到底是什麼，我也希望法務部你們加快，好不好？這個是一個全國高度矚目的食安案件，不是環辦，要趕快用你們團隊的力量，好好去偵辦，好不好？趕快給國人一個交代，這個是關乎到國人食安非常重要的事。","另外一個，回到今天家暴的議題，今天司法院有代表來，是李副廳長，近三年來，這一些保護令的核發件數跟駁回比例，我們可以看到在駁回比例的部分是有升高的情況，照道理來講，這一些保護的案件，當事人就是覺得很有需求才去申請保護令，結果到了司法院之後你們卻駁回，你們有去分析你們駁回的原因是什麼嗎？你看，112年有高達六千多件，如果說他是應該被保護卻被你們駁回，那這個受害者的保護應該要怎麼去落實？這個你們有進一步去瞭解嗎？"],["李副廳長昆霖：謝謝委員。跟委員報告，法官或司法事務官在審理保護令事件的時候，他依照我們的規定還有法律的證據去判斷符不符合，如果符合，就應該核發，如果不符合，當然不符合要件就會駁回，所以這進到法院就一律要看他提出敘明的證據有沒有達到核發的必要性，還有核發的內容是哪一類型保護令的內容，據以保護被害人不再繼續受到家庭暴力。"],["王委員育敏：是，但是現在看起來駁回的案件數有增加的情況，比例也是增加的，你們有沒有去探究是什麼樣的原因？這當中會不會有其實是個別法官認定標準寬鬆不一的情況？然後本來應該要核發，但是因為他比較嚴格，所以他就駁回。","你再看下一張圖，112年各地方保護令的核發率看起來是很不一致的，你可以看到有這種72%的，也有澎湖這種只有47%的，這整個落差你們有去探究嗎？各縣市執行狀況不一的情況。"],["李副廳長昆霖：跟委員報告，個別地院因為案件的類型也不太一樣，所以這個部分我們……"],["王委員育敏：當然不一樣，但是每一個縣市的差異化有這麼大嗎？如果從72%到47%，差異化有這麼大嗎？每一個家庭家暴的原因、成因，然後他需要受到保護令的保護，你不覺得這個落差很大嗎？我現在要問的是司法院你們有沒有認真地去看這件事情？基本上每一個要動用到保護令的都是受害者本身都覺得他非常有需要，他才會採取這樣的動作，或者是社政主管機關也覺得很有需要或是警察機關覺得很有需要才會協助他，結果司法院核發下來的如果都還有百分之十幾駁回，而且是呈現增加的情況，並沒有去核發的話，這就應該好好去檢討。"],["李副廳長昆霖：跟委員報告，我們司法行政有不斷在發函還有藉由……"],["王委員育敏：你們近期有針對這個開過任何會議嗎？跟衛福部去檢討。"],["李副廳長昆霖：我們每三個月……"],["王委員育敏：有針對這件事情討論嗎？"],["李副廳長昆霖：我們曾經有討論過。"],["王委員育敏：曾經是什麼時候？多久以前？如果有的話，把那個報告給本席，我要看你們檢討出來的原因是什麼，而且你們改善的是什麼。"],["李副廳長昆霖：好。"],["王委員育敏：最後一個問題，我要問的是衛福部關於目睹兒少的部分你們現在施行的情況，在你們這個家暴裡面的兒少保護類型，每一年因為家暴案件再通報進來的大概是100件左右，但是民間團體認為這一種每一年將近20萬件的家暴案件，這種目睹兒少可能超過10萬，那這麼大的一個落差，還有你們的服務量，這件事情你們現在的資源夠嗎？有在做嗎？落實的情況好嗎？因為你們今天的報告裡面就只有一句話，就是目睹兒少，我也沒有看到你們呈現的，所以現在衛福部到底有沒有很重視這件事情？這個是在上一波修法裡面民間有特別倡議，希望針對目睹家暴的兒少應該要進一步提供服務，但是我看你們現在所有的業務優先順序上，它還是排在很末端的。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分的話，當然也會需要我們跟教育單位之間的協助，因為這些目睹兒少很多都在學齡中……"],["王委員育敏：今天教育單位也沒有來嘛？教育部也沒有任何代表來，這件事情我希望衛福部跟教育部要好好重視，因為這樣的一個心理創傷，它是看不見的傷，但是對他的影響坦白講是很大的，所以如果我們從一個預防的角度來看的話，這一塊我希望你們可以好好重視，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["王委員育敏：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。接下來請黃秀芳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 檢討 112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政\n署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具\n體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.7097187500000004,"end":5.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.04596875,"end":12.602843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.193468750000001,"end":15.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.15909375,"end":19.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.21784375,"end":20.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.54659375,"end":21.934718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.95159375,"end":21.985343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.187843750000003,"end":31.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.06846875,"end":32.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.869718750000004,"end":33.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.93284375,"end":35.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":35.51909375,"end":36.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.565343750000004,"end":60.814718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.101593750000006,"end":64.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.57784375,"end":87.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.27471875,"end":92.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.04596875,"end":110.78159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.10409375,"end":99.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.15284375,"end":117.75096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.17284375000001,"end":129.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":129.42846875,"end":134.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.23784375,"end":155.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.09971875000002,"end":154.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.88846875000002,"end":160.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.32659375,"end":168.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.62909375,"end":171.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.20221875000001,"end":185.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.69409375,"end":216.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.87409375000001,"end":193.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.92471875,"end":194.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.19784375,"end":201.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.55221875,"end":201.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.11534375000002,"end":217.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.19534375,"end":232.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.19284375,"end":277.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.27034375,"end":277.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.28721875,"end":283.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.51846875,"end":287.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":287.74971875,"end":287.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":287.95221875000004,"end":301.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.67721875,"end":292.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.06409375000004,"end":301.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.99221875,"end":302.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":302.00909375000003,"end":302.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.31284375,"end":302.32971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":302.32971875000004,"end":305.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.36346875000004,"end":303.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.70471875000004,"end":312.13409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.60659375,"end":313.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.50096875,"end":339.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.89346875,"end":376.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.91284375000004,"end":380.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.71409375,"end":417.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.87721875000005,"end":417.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.26534375,"end":437.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.81909375000004,"end":450.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.35284375000003,"end":452.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":453.46221875000003,"end":454.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.15409375,"end":456.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.93846875,"end":465.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.80221875,"end":471.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.88971875000004,"end":479.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.00659375000004,"end":483.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":483.28034375000004,"end":483.46596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.46596875000006,"end":483.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":483.48284375000003,"end":484.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.49971875000006,"end":517.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":517.4522187499999,"end":523.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.9028437500001,"end":525.21471875}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謝謝委員跟委員報告"},{"start":380.851,"end":400.528,"text":"那那個法官在在審理法官或是司法事務官在審理這個保護令的事件的時候他依照我們的規定還有我們的法律的證據去判斷符不符合如果符合就應該要核發如果不符合當然不符合要件當然就會駁回那所以"},{"start":401.229,"end":417.071,"text":"這進段法院就一律是要看他所提出的市民的證據夠不夠達到這個合法的必要性那還有合法的內容是哪一類型的相似的那個保護令的內容來據以保護被害人而不受再繼續受到家庭暴力"},{"start":417.532,"end":436.412,"text":"但是他現在看起來駁回的案件數有增加的情況比例也是增加的情況你們有沒有去探究是什麼樣的原因這當中會不會有即使是個別法官認定的這個標準寬鬆不一的然後本來應該要核發但是因為他比較嚴格所以他就駁回你再看下一張圖"},{"start":438.594,"end":448.426,"text":"這個112年各地方的這個保護令的核發力看起來是很不一致的你可以看到有這種72%的也有這種在這個澎湖只有47%的這個整個的這個落差你們有去探究嗎"},{"start":454.27,"end":460.953,"text":"各縣市執行狀況不一的情況。當然不一樣,但是每一個縣市的差異化有這麼大嗎?如果從72%到47%,差異化有這麼大嗎?每一個家庭的家暴的原因的成因,然後他需要收到保護令的這個保護"},{"start":481.421,"end":504.241,"text":"這個標你不覺得落差很大嗎那你們有沒有我現在要問的是司法院你們有沒有認真的去看待這件事情因為基本上每一個已經要動用到保護令的他都是從受害者本身都覺得他非常的有需要他才會採取這樣的一個動作或者是社政主管機關也覺得很有需要或者是警察覺得很有需要才會協助他結果"},{"start":505.262,"end":524.059,"text":"在這個司法院核發下來的,如果都還有十幾趴,而且是呈現增加的情況,並沒有去核發的話,那這個就是應該好好去檢討啊。」是。跟委員報告,我們司法行政有不斷在發函,還有或者藉由…你們近期有針對這個開過任何會議嗎?跟衛福部去檢討。"},{"start":528.402,"end":530.608,"text":"與民主、民主、民主、民主、民主、民主、民主、民主、"},{"start":538.294,"end":561.915,"text":"如果有把那個報告給本席我要看你們檢討出來的原因是什麼而且你們改善的是什麼另外最後一個問題我要問的是這個衛福部就是有關於目睹兒少的部分你們現在施行的一個情況在你們這個家暴裡面兒少保護類型每一年因為這個家暴案件再通報進來大概是100件左右"},{"start":562.415,"end":587.063,"text":"但是民間團體認為這種我們每一年將近20萬件的家暴案件這種目睹的兒少可能是超過10萬那這麼大的一個落差還有你們的服務量這當中這件事情你們現在的資源夠嗎?有在做嗎?落實的情況好嗎?因為在你們今天的報告裡面就只有一句話就是目睹兒少我也沒有看到"},{"start":587.583,"end":607.788,"text":"你們呈現的。」所以這個到底現在在衛福部裡面有沒有很重視這件事情這個是在上一波修法裡面特別這個民間倡議希望針對目睹這個家暴的兒少應該要進一步提供服務但是我看現在在你們所有的業務優先順序上它還是一個排在很末端的"},{"start":608.919,"end":626.049,"text":"這個部分的話當然也會需要我們跟教育單位之間的協助因為這些目睹的兒少那很多都是在學齡中的今天教育單位也沒有來嗎?教育部也沒有任何代表來?"},{"start":627.33,"end":634.858,"text":"法務部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會"}]}},{"id":"151620","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151620","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb37858148621ed22c8b903698ddfaa754aeadb1108e4b844328ec27cf4fa19cd7a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"09:57:45 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10:08:41","影片長度":"00:10:56","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":656,"end_time":"2024-04-24T10:08:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T09:57:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":422,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（9時57分）主席好。我先請法務部郭司長。"],["主席：請法務部檢察司郭司長。"],["邱委員鎮軍：郭司長好。請問一下，昨天死刑的釋憲辯論扣除需要迴避的3位大法官，其餘12位裡面有7位大法官支持廢死，但在臺灣有超過八成的民眾是反對廢死的，假設大法官釋憲結果與民意不符，法務部接下來的動作會是什麼？"],["郭司長永發：法務部很堅決地認為，有關廢死的議題應該交由國會來決定，因為大法官……"],["邱委員鎮軍：以你們專業的角度來看呢？"],["郭司長永發：因為這個判決應該要7到9月份才出來，在判決還沒有出來之前，我們實在無法臆測到底憲法法庭會做怎麼樣的決定，所以……"],["邱委員鎮軍：以你個人的看法？"],["郭司長永發：我個人實在不方便在這個場合來跟委員報告。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們是支持維持死刑，但是我也支持在判決的時候能夠更嚴謹。當然基本的人權要保護，而我們更要給被害者家屬一個交代。如果維持死刑，我個人認為對於犯罪能夠有效的、有部分的遏止，您支持嗎？"],["郭司長永發：我支持。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我請衛福部薛部長。司長，您等一下。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。有關上次本席形容的，部長跟法務部可能沒什麼感覺，我們先看一下影片。","（播放影片）"],["邱委員鎮軍：依毒品危害防制條例第二條第一項規定，毒品包含對社會危害性的麻醉藥品及其製品。部長，我想請問一下，「依托咪酯」據本席瞭解是屬於管制的麻醉藥品，對吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前還沒有列進去，但它是一個有藥證的麻醉藥。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你們回去之後，瞭解它還不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：所以5月9號我們會送管制藥品審議委員會，它是定期開會，我們會送到那邊做決定。如果委員會裡面大家同意的話，它就會列為管制藥品；列為管制藥品之後，我們就會再請法務部那邊去提是否……"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長，您覺得它對人體有沒有傷害？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果像這樣長期在用的話會有傷害；但是它也有醫療的用途，就是做一個短效的麻醉劑。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，我們知道嗎啡也是有醫療的用途，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但它還是受控制的。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以部長回去之後，我希望你們能夠儘快地將這個部分納入討論的議題，更希望能夠儘快地來管制、做一個有效的管制。我知道毒品審議委員會每3個月都會定期檢討，下一次是什麼時候？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員說明，毒品審議委員會我記得上個月有開過，因為我們3個月開一次，現在是4月份，大概7、8月份吧。"],["邱委員鎮軍：本席在這邊就要求將「依托咪酯」加入審查內容，可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我剛剛有報告過，5月我們就會進入管制藥品審議委員會，如果它列為管制藥品，也就是它在某種情形之下可以做藥，但是它必須要嚴格監管，這時候就會提到法務部的毒品審議委員會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好，除了剛剛這個「依托咪酯」的部分，我也希望法務部將K他命的分級檢討一併納入，可以嗎？"],["郭司長永發：謝謝委員的提醒，我們會在毒品審議委員會裡面提出，因為我們採合議制，我們就請委員討論。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道你們考慮很多，過去某位部長級的官員也曾經提到，如果中南部學校的全校學生抓去驗尿，恐怕許多學校要關門。如果以這種立場，本席真的非常不認同，我想年輕人是我們國家未來的主人翁，我們更加要好好地保護！當然也要表現我們政府對於反毒的決心，希望法務部、衛福部、內政部警政署與教育部要做好跨部會的橫向聯繫。","現在看這個表，我們每一年都有一個通報機制，在108年到112年當中，每一次學校安全通報的濫用藥物案件跟警政署通報的就有一個落差，我想請警政署這邊也來說明一下這是為什麼？"],["賈警政委員樂吉：邱委員好。有關這些通報的差距，因為我們在數字有兩個系統，所以在受理跟入案之間本來就會有一個猶豫期間，所以出來的數字一定不會相同，如果數字在一定的區間內，我們大概都可以容許……"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是我現在看起來幾乎都差了三分之一啊！對不對？多了大概三分之一以上。"],["賈警政委員樂吉：三分之一……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我要強調的就是，學校跟警政署掌握的數據不太一樣的原因當然就是橫向聯繫不足，你們沒有有效跟學校保持有效地聯繫，學校也沒有辦法跟警政署這邊保持很好的溝通，導致這個數據不對。"],["賈警政委員樂吉：這個也有可能，這個可能性也很高，這部分我們已經加強少年隊跟學校之間的聯繫，而且現在學校也滿主動了，跟以往的概念不一樣，所以他們也滿主動地把這些……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那我請問警政署，我看到這個數據每一年都有在下降，對吧？"],["賈警政委員樂吉：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：您認為K他命跟這些毒品在校園的案子是因為學校查得好，還是現在的作法是對的所以逐年下降？"],["賈警政委員樂吉：應該都有，這2項都是雙管齊下的，因為學校這部分真的比較正視這個問題了。"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼我覺得還是滿氾濫的呢？還是沒有下降，用毒的人反而更多！"],["賈警政委員樂吉：這可能是單一事件影響的渲染效果。"],["邱委員鎮軍：您認為這個數字跟我們的……比如說K他命好了，因為在毒品的分級制它是列三級，你覺得跟這個有關嗎？"],["賈警政委員樂吉：青少年在使用的時候，他們不會分這麼清楚，他們是以自己取得的方式……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，但是在警政署這邊辦案時，他會不會因為它只是三級毒品而不太注重？"],["賈警政委員樂吉：不會。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得會，您相信嗎？我改天拿數據給你們看，因為警察每一個人都要有績效，當警政署給他們一個標準的時候，他們當然是照著那個分數去做有績效的，當警政署沒有注意這件事情的時候，他有碰到當然一定會做，只是他的重點不會放在這邊，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["賈警政委員樂吉：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我不認為這個數據是可以參考、是對的，因此我希望警政署跟學校這邊能夠做好有效的溝通，這樣可以嗎？"],["賈警政委員樂吉：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為時間好像也到了，我大概再問一下，司長請回。","我再問一下衛福部，今年年初你們有一個優化偏鄉醫療精進計畫，今年年初我們苗栗18個鄉鎮市有9個衛生所的醫生出缺比例高達50%，突顯我們苗栗縣衛生所的醫師嚴重不足，因此本席對於優化偏鄉醫療精進計畫非常期待，不過目前我們只看到一張計畫大綱，看不到詳細的內容。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為這部分行政院應該是剛剛才核定。"],["邱委員鎮軍：才剛核定？"],["薛部長瑞元：剛剛才核定。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為時間不太夠，這部分我改天再來問你，我也希望部長能夠多重視偏鄉醫療不足的問題，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然！所以我們才提這個計畫。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席（林委員月琴代）：謝謝邱鎮軍委員。","接下來請王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 檢討 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13:29:27","影片長度":"00:11:42","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":702,"end_time":"2024-04-24T13:29:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T13:17:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1356,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（13時18分）謝謝主席，麻煩請薛部長跟心健司。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長好，心健司我好像還沒問過。","部長，之前你有提到依照統計數據的呈現，年輕族群的自殺率有提高的趨勢，所以提出年輕族群心理健康的協助。我要請教一下，部長你知道全國各縣市當中哪個縣市自殺率是最高的嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前我可能要查一下資料。"],["陳委員瑩：好，沒關係，我其實都查好了，第一名是苗栗。實際的統計數據有點顛覆我們很多人的想像，因為我想很多人應該都會跟我一樣，覺得在都會區可能生活步調很緊湊，工作壓力、居住環境等等的因素，處於比較高壓，高壓到超過個人可以忍受的範圍，導致憂鬱，甚至自我傷害、最後輕生的狀況，感覺上這個邏輯推論起來是比較高的。","但是我們看一下這個圖，這是去年的新聞，統計2022年自殺率的數據，圖裡黑色底的數據就是高於平均值。我換個方式呈現，我們再看一下這個表，我特別關心花蓮、臺東的部分，我們花蓮、臺東就是前五名。部長你覺得這樣的情形可能的原因是什麼？有哪些？"],["薛部長瑞元：這邊的自殺率是全人口，我們知道這些自殺的個案，其實是以年紀大的佔多數，所以這樣看下去，排名前面可能都是老年化、高齡化的縣，自殺率是比較高的，這也是可以理解。"],["陳委員瑩：為什麼部長會認為特別是老年人的自殺率會比較高？"],["薛部長瑞元：從統計數字來看，的確是這樣。"],["陳委員瑩：你覺得有哪幾個比較可能的原因？"],["薛部長瑞元：比方說久病、在照顧上有問題，或是雙老互相照顧，或者是獨居等等這些原因。"],["陳委員瑩：追究這些原因以外，我想我更注重的是我們的對策是什麼？這個部分，我不曉得衛福部有沒有比較精進的作為？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是不是請司長來回答。"],["陳委員瑩：好。"],["陳司長亮妤：謝謝委員關切這個議題。如同部長補充的，目前全臺灣的數據是65歲以上人口自殺率最高，我們看年輕族群是因為他的自殺率上升最陡，當時是因為這樣的理由。所以最高的還是如同部長所講的，如果這個鄉鎮市的人口分布是比較老化，的確自殺率就會比較高，這是剛剛的一點補充。","關於因應作為，我們目前是結合22縣市，不管是醫事科，還是長照活動或社家署的相關活動，我們大量的做老人憂鬱症篩檢。因為根據去年國衛院的研究，顯示老人自殺的核心議題是他的憂鬱症沒有被篩檢出來，目前臺灣65歲以上的人的憂鬱症盛行率是16%，一般人大概是10%，所以老人的憂鬱症必須要大量被篩檢出來，才可以提早介入、提早治療。心理健康司結合社家署相關的活動，去年我們篩檢了65萬人次，轉介治療的高達四千多人，這是我們的精進作為。"],["陳委員瑩：我是第一次質詢你，所以我讓你多講一點話。","單看一年的數據，可能不太精確。接下來我們再看成功大學「看見健康數據」的資料，它所呈現的是2018年到2020年的統計數據，花蓮也是明顯高於平均值，也是排名在前面；我們臺東更是得到第二名。或許有些專家會說因為偏鄉醫療資源缺乏，醫院的密集度比較低，被搶救機會比較低。其實換句話說，就是在偏鄉醫療資源比較少的地方，可能就是你在那邊自殺成功率比較高啦，換句話講是這樣。雖然這是可能影響的因素，但是我比較想了解造成非都市居民比較容易有憂鬱傾向的因素又是什麼？為什麼我們花東的人比較容易產生尋短的念頭？"],["薛部長瑞元：這可能有幾個因素，第一是物質濫用的問題。"],["陳委員瑩：蛤？"],["薛部長瑞元：物質濫用。"],["陳委員瑩：物質濫用？"],["薛部長瑞元：比如說酒啦，或是其他一些毒品那一類的，這是一個可能的原因。但是在原鄉來講，不見得是主要的原因。另外，就是無業，沒有……"],["陳委員瑩：工作不順利。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有適當的工作，這也是一個。"],["陳委員瑩：或許沒有適當的壓力排遣的地方，或娛樂的地方，可能也是……"],["薛部長瑞元：也有可能啦，但是通常不會把它當成主要原因。"],["陳委員瑩：我想回歸到我剛剛講的，到底怎麼樣幫助這些人，可能還是最重要的。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員瑩：另外還有一個數據，我看到也是非常憂心。我為什麼會特別提這個，是因為我週遭好幾位選民的孩子正當青壯年，20多歲、30歲，都自殺往生了，很遺憾。","依照你們委託製作2030年原住民族健康照護中長程計畫的報告當中，我看到這個資料，為什麼特別是25到44歲的青壯年原住民的自殺死亡率高於全國的數據，高出了將近五成。部長你覺得這是什麼原因，你們因應的對策又是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分其實跟我剛剛的報告有一些關係。"],["陳委員瑩：是有約略提到一些，這個我也了解。"],["薛部長瑞元：在生活上，因為職業的收入不是很穩定的情形，當然會造成生活壓力比較高。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你覺得這在原鄉發生比率也會比較高嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為這裡的統計不是只有原鄉。"],["陳委員瑩：當然，對、沒錯！因為我遇到的實際案例其實都發生在都會區，他們也有不錯的工作，但是他們的工作也是都跟高壓有關係。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我想有一個現象，要拜託部長特別注意一下，司長應該接任也沒有太久，我也請你注意一下。我希望你們心健司可以多加加油，因為從2022年成立到現在，其實對於原住民心理健康的這些重要統計數據，你們司裡的同仁一問三不知，可能到最後責任都要司長來扛，甚至部長來扛，我覺得這樣也不是很理想。","我今天秀出來的是衛福部報告裡的東西，我問心健司還有沒有其他更完整的數據，結果呢，你們完全都不知道還有哪些原住民自殺數據的統計，甚至你們有同仁反問我們，這個數據從哪裡來？不就是你們衛福部自己委外的嗎？我不管是不是心健司委外，還是其他單位委外，這些都跟你們的業務有相關，就要主動去把這些數據全部都撈出來啊，對不對？還反問我們這個數據哪裡來，這樣很漏氣。如果連這些數據、趨勢都沒有掌握的話，我想你要有什麼因應的對策，我也很難期待你們今天可以給出什麼滿意的答案。","但是我這樣提，你們也不要太難過。因為原住民相關的問題，我一樣也問過勞動部，曾經有一位勞動部安研所同仁被我問到原住民勞工相關的問題，一開始他也都答不出來，但是他回去發奮圖強，後來跟著他們單位同仁做了很多原住民相關的數據研究統計。所以現在我也謝謝勞動部，特別在受到那樣的刺激之後，發奮圖強，很主動的把所有原住民相關勞工問題的數據，全部都研究得一清二楚，帶動整個勞動部下鄉。不只下鄉，都會區有原住民的地方，他們也會跟我請教，哪裡可以真的找到比較多的原住民，可以做有效的宣導，所以他們也沒有再到工地去發DVD作宣導，錯誤的宣導方式跟地點，這個都是要注意的。","我希望今天這個質詢可以給你們一些良善的刺激，也希望你們可以效法勞動部當初那位安研所的同仁，因為後來他也升官了，也不錯。所以我想在這邊給你們勉勵，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳瑩委員的發言。","接下來請牛煦庭委員、牛煦庭委員、牛煦庭委員不在。","接下來請蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","接下來請張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員、張嘉郡委員不在。","接下來請林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","接下來請鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來請鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員不在。","接下來請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 檢討 112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政\n署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具\n體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.31596875,"end":12.754718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.606593750000002,"end":19.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.30659375,"end":19.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.989093750000002,"end":25.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.90034375,"end":29.106593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.26721875,"end":27.722843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.579093750000002,"end":52.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.642843750000004,"end":54.790343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.752218750000004,"end":56.174093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.99659375,"end":61.422218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.60784375,"end":101.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.70284375,"end":102.81659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.15409375,"end":117.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.05471875,"end":119.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.68721875000001,"end":134.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.21659375000002,"end":138.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.50284375,"end":151.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.41659375,"end":162.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.73971875,"end":165.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.23721875,"end":168.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.57846875,"end":172.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.66221875000002,"end":173.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.86034375,"end":177.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.59846875000002,"end":178.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.19721875000002,"end":187.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.71471875,"end":195.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.16971875000002,"end":192.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.79409375,"end":192.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.89534375000002,"end":193.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.97096875000003,"end":203.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.69659375,"end":195.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.23534375000003,"end":208.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.04034375,"end":212.67284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.67284375000003,"end":275.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.35096875,"end":276.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.84846875,"end":300.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.31221875,"end":279.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.35534375000003,"end":348.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.02284375000005,"end":355.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.02596875,"end":366.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.47159375,"end":371.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.63534375,"end":373.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.01471875000004,"end":374.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.94284375,"end":375.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":375.36471875,"end":379.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.05596875000003,"end":385.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.47784375000003,"end":382.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.32096875,"end":391.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.39159375,"end":397.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.45034375,"end":406.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.34284375000004,"end":416.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.97846875000005,"end":418.17659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.42971875,"end":437.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.71784375000004,"end":438.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.88221875000005,"end":452.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.63534375,"end":457.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":458.57534375,"end":458.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.08159375,"end":464.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.93721875000006,"end":467.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.13534375,"end":484.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.56284375,"end":489.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":489.55784375,"end":494.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.41784375000003,"end":497.52284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.04221875,"end":495.34596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.73409375000006,"end":496.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.79284375000003,"end":502.83846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.03284375000004,"end":501.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.36159375000005,"end":504.71159375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部那個勞動部就是特別在受到那樣的刺激之後發憤圖強"},{"start":646.761,"end":673.475,"text":"很主動的把所有原住民相關的勞工問題一些數據全部都研究得一清二楚那帶動整個勞動部下鄉或者不只下鄉都會去有原住民的地方他們就都也會跟我們請教說哪裡可以真的找到比較多的原住民可以做有效的宣導所以他們也沒有再到工地去發DVD做宣導了"},{"start":674.595,"end":695.021,"text":"所以錯誤的宣導方式跟這個地點這個都是要注意的所以我希望今天這個質詢呢可以給你們一些良善的刺激那也希望你們可以效法一下這個勞動部當初那位安研所的同仁因為後來他也升官了也不錯所以我想在這邊給你們勉勵謝謝好謝謝陳穎委員的發言接下來請牛徐廷委員"}]}},{"id":"151700","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151700","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3f2b5660db0aae13ab903698ddfaa754aeadb1108e4b844324c71a6ad5e9dab055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"13:11:07 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13:17:36","影片長度":"00:06:29","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":389,"end_time":"2024-04-24T13:17:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T13:11:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1320,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（13時11分）謝謝主席，本席有請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：部長好。今天我們大家在這裡討論，都是怎麼樣讓我們的孩子、國家的主人翁能夠有一個更好的環境。臺灣少子化已經是一個很大的國安問題了，但是我們的孩子生出來之後，我們卻沒有辦法讓他們在一個安全的、快樂的、無憂無慮的環境成長，這個其實是我們所有大人應該要為孩子創造的。特別您是衛福部部長，我們今天針對創意私房論壇網站的事件，引發了讓我們大家對於兒少性影像防制的一些具體作為，甚至應該檢討目前的作法，乃至於兒童及少年性剝削防制條例的修正方向。","本席也看了你們今天的報告，報告裡面寫了很多貴部辦理了哪些事項，但是本席更想提的是，我們怎麼樣可以全面來禁止，在整個社會上，我相信只要是兒少的性影像，我們都是禁止觀看的，怎麼讓這樣的情況可以全面禁止。我想說的是，全面禁止兒少的性影像出現在我們的社會中，甚至怎麼樣全面禁止跟防制。你們所做的，已經做了，但是要達到這個目標，你們還缺什麼？你們的法律層面還缺什麼？你們的執行層面還缺什麼？部長您的看法？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分，當然法律層面還有一些可以改善的空間，所以我們這一次會修法。"],["徐委員欣瑩：有沒有考慮提專法？全面的。"],["薛部長瑞元：其實這個兒少性剝削防制條例就是一個專法，現在怎麼去遏止性影像的犯罪或剝削行為，很重要的是性影像的犯罪傳播主要都依賴網路，……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以我說專法的意思是包含現在科技，因為現在最大的問題確實就在科技層面，尤其是網路層面嘛。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你這個是法律層面。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，當然要另外訂一個有關於網路犯罪法律……"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們全面的來保護兒童。"],["薛部長瑞元：我個人也樂觀其成。有一個專法專門在處理有關網路犯罪，是不是那個專法有一些資源可以投入在網路犯罪部分。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為時間有限，我拿一個具體的例子來說。在你們報告的第二項有關性影像處理中心和提供諮詢服務，你們提到應該要下架，成功移除86%，表示還有14%沒有移除，是什麼原因？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分是因為在原來的法規架構之下，下架是由地方在做，移給他們，由他們來做，所以有些地方還沒……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，這就是執行層面，所以剛剛我說法律層面跟執行層面要達到我們希望給孩子一個最安全而且最好的環境，法律層面跟執行層面還需要積極作為。"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：而不是你做了什麼。當然我們也覺得你們很辛苦，做了很多，但是是不是可以更有效，我們不希望一而再、再而三的看到。","再來，你們報告的第四點，提供被害人保護扶助這邊，112年就是去年，提供心理諮商輔導的有1,005人次，這是針對兒少性影像嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：兒少性影像的被害人。"],["徐委員欣瑩：還是整個，包含成人？是只有兒少？"],["薛部長瑞元：兒少的部分。"],["徐委員欣瑩：只有兒少的部分，有1,005人次，一般都還會有黑數。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們提供出去的服務，不會有黑數，有一些沒有……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是啦，我是說已經有這麼多人來諮商，那一定也有……"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有來的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，沒有來的有多少？我們專責的單位是不是可以加強？我們要主動積極的為我們的孩子創造這樣的環境，還有很多該預防、該幫他防範的。想想看，這麼多小孩這麼可憐，你知道，其實肉體的創傷容易撫平，心理的創傷是最難的。"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦。"],["徐委員欣瑩：甚至有些孩子從小創傷，如果沒有好好的輔導，長大以後可能也會是社會的問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然更重要的是，我們就不希望我們國家未來主人翁受到這些傷害，所以是不是可以有一些更積極的法律層面跟執行面的作為？能不能、可不可以在下個會期開始有一份完整的書面報告送來？"],["薛部長瑞元：我想如果立法院有排報告的話，我們大概就會執行。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員發言。","接下來請張雅琳委員、張雅琳委員、張雅琳委員不在。","接下來請陳瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 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13:00:46","影片長度":"00:05:58","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":358,"end_time":"2024-04-24T13:00:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T12:54:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1297,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（12時54分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：我們在討論兒童性剝削的狀況要怎麼樣去加以遏堵，我想要先檢視一下現在網路上兒童性剝削的現狀，根據臺灣警方的統計數據，事實上，網路兒童性剝削的案件是呈現逐年增加的趨勢，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：通報案次啦！其實成案的也是越來越多，沒有錯。"],["羅委員智強：對，2017年到現在，我看到數據是從1,060人變成3,346人，成長了將近3倍。在這些案件當中，很多是利用網路平臺進行性剝削的行為，包括兒童色情、偷拍、恐嚇，這些行為不僅造成兒童身心嚴重受創，也對社會造成極大的危害，這也是為什麼現在這個創意私房事件引起大家極大的關注。坦白講，這個現象存在是早在創意私房這個案件被揭露之前，其實就開始越來越嚴重嘛！對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：的確是這樣子，從我們在處理的案件數據來看，是越來越厲害沒有錯。"],["羅委員智強：我跟部長說，因為坦白講，我自己是覺得非常憂心啦！就拿創意私房這個案件來看，我對現在我們防制兒童性剝削，目前政府的投入，我是有點悲觀的耶！我不知道部長你覺得樂觀還是悲觀？目前的看法。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個還是有很大的空間要去改善，因為目前來講，當然有一些是觀念上面要去注意，比方說過去可能對於性影像這件事情，並不把它認定是一個嚴重的事情，因為沒有看到實際上的人受到侵犯嘛！就是說那種感受會不一樣。但是對兒童、少年來講的話，因為他沒有自主，缺乏自主意識的能力，所以才需要特別地去做保護，這個觀念必須要讓我們全民都能夠理解，現在因為有這樣子的案子出來，我想大概民眾方面都可以接受，再接下來就是政府機關，包括司法機關要怎麼樣跟上去的問題。"],["羅委員智強：好，我剛剛跟部長說，為什麼我感到相當的憂心，甚至悲觀？因為我覺得目前看起來，我們的作為當然是有啦，但是比起快速成長的案件數，這個作為的效力跟效果到底如何，到現在其實還是難以驗證。","我舉個例子，美國有制定一個國家預防和防制剝削兒童的策略，它是要透過立法、執法、教育、公共政策多面向的綜合措施，而且是一個跨單位、跨國際的策略指南，目標就是有效預防跟打擊兒童性剝削。可是剛剛部長所講到的，在創意私房這個案件當中，我舉四個面向，就是說我們今天兒童性剝削，第一個是強化法律規範，對不對？第二個是要加強執法力度，第三個是要提升公眾意識，第四個是要加強國際合作，可是剛剛部長一直在談的其實是第三塊，就是提升公眾意識。","因為創意私房有知名藝人涉入，確實公眾有意識到這些性影像不單單只是性影像本身，它背後可能產生的是一個兒童性剝削的產業鏈，當然在這個狀況之下，我覺得政府部門要努力地告訴大家，不要變成兒童性剝削的共犯，這是在講社會公共意識的部分。至於法規，當然現在我們努力想要加重某些刑度，這是修法的方向，可是另外兩個面向，目前說真的，我不知道耶！就是加強執法力度還有加強國際合作，因為都已經跨國化了，我不知道現在我們的具體策略是什麼。"],["薛部長瑞元：第一個，有關於剛剛委員提到的第二點，那是比較在技術層面，我們必須要有這種技術能夠來破解相關的事情，這個部分其實我們必須要把它看成什麼樣？你有這樣的技術，其實也在做國安的保護。"],["羅委員智強：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：包括恐怖的攻擊等等這方面，其實都是相同的技術，可以對網路世界去做某種程度的預防措施。","最後一個國際合作的部分，的確以臺灣的國際地位，要談國際合作有一定的困難度，但是也不是沒有辦法處理，我們也可以透過NGO的網絡加入，來做這方面的合作。"],["羅委員智強：好，那再拜託部長跟衛福部，整個政府能夠在這方面再加強一下，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅智強委員。我們現在先休息10分鐘。","休息（13時）","繼續開會（13時11分）"],["主席：繼續開會，現在請徐欣瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 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112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政\n署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具\n體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.33846875,"end":4.418468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.498468750000001,"end":6.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.898468750000003,"end":11.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.927843750000001,"end":35.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.63721875,"end":36.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.025343750000005,"end":37.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.00409375,"end":37.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.071593750000005,"end":41.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.75034375,"end":65.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.48909375000001,"end":80.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.03096875,"end":88.87784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.18159375,"end":98.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.78346875000001,"end":101.71971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.09096875,"end":106.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.74846875,"end":107.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.30534375,"end":109.11096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.38096875000001,"end":113.31284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.13971875,"end":154.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.46659375000002,"end":175.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.48034375,"end":182.31471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.70284375,"end":186.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.43221875,"end":190.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.51159375,"end":192.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.92909375000002,"end":267.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.00596875,"end":282.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.22721875,"end":301.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.21659375,"end":297.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.41846875000005,"end":308.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.65784375000004,"end":311.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.05409375,"end":321.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.26346875,"end":321.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.56721875,"end":346.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.12034375,"end":354.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.46909375,"end":358.67534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.383,"end":5.983,"text":"主席有請部長請薛部長"},{"start":11.997,"end":33.948,"text":"我們在討論就是兒童性剝削的這個狀況要怎麼樣去把它這個加以惡賭那我想先要檢視一下我們現在網路上兒童性剝削的現狀那根據臺灣警方的統計數據實際上網路兒童性剝削的案件是呈現逐年增加的趨勢對不對"},{"start":35.689,"end":64.58,"text":"通報案次其實成案的也是越來越多對2017年到現在我看到數據從1060人變成3346人成長了將近三倍那這案件當中很多是利用網路平台進行性剝削的行為包括兒童色情偷拍恐嚇那這些行為不僅造成兒童身心嚴重也對社會造成極大的危害"},{"start":65.56,"end":79.836,"text":"那這也是為什麼現在這個創意私房這個事件引起大家極大的關注坦白講這個現象存在是早在創意私房這案件被揭露之前其實就開始越來越嚴重對不對"},{"start":81.964,"end":108.412,"text":"的確是這樣子從我們的在處理的案件的數據來看的話是越來越厲害我這邊跟那個部長說因為坦白講我自己是覺得非常的憂心你就拿創意私房這個案件來看的話我不知道這個部長你覺得我對現在我們防治兒童性剝削目前的政府的投入我是有點悲觀的"},{"start":109.472,"end":113.22,"text":"我不知道部長你覺得樂觀還是悲觀?目前的看法"},{"start":114.958,"end":141.143,"text":"這還是需要有很大的這個空間要去改善因為目前來講的話當然有一些是觀念上面要去注意比如說過去可能類似的對性影像這件事情並不把它認定說它是一個嚴重的事情因為沒有看到實際上的人受到這個侵犯"},{"start":142.183,"end":162.433,"text":"或感受會不一樣。」但是對兒童、少年來講的話,因為他沒有自主,就是說缺乏自主意識的能力,所以才需要特別的去做保護。這一個觀念必須要去讓我們全民都能夠理解。"},{"start":162.833,"end":190.662,"text":"那以現在因為有這樣子的一個案子出來的話我想大概民眾方面都可以接受那再接下來就是政府機關包括司法機關要怎麼樣去跟上去的問題我剛剛跟部長說為什麼我是感到相當的憂心甚至悲觀因為我覺得目前看起來我們的作為當然是有啦但是比起說這個快速成長的案件數我覺得這個作為真的"},{"start":191.542,"end":207.954,"text":"他到底效力跟效果如何到現在其實我覺得還是難以驗證我舉個例子美國他有制定一個國家預防和防治剝削兒童的策略他是要透過立法執法教育公共政策多面向的綜合措施而且是一個"},{"start":208.594,"end":237.011,"text":"跨單位跟跨國際的策略指南,目標就是有效預防跟打擊兒童性剝削。」可是剛剛部長其實剛剛講到說創醫施防的這個案件當中我舉四個面向就是說我們叫兒童性剝削第一個是強化法律規範 對不對第二個是要加強執法力度嘛第三個是要提升公眾意識第四個是要加強國際合作可是因為剛剛部長一直在談的其實是第三塊啦"},{"start":237.771,"end":254.067,"text":"就是提升公眾意識確實因為創意私房跟知名藝人他涉入確實公眾有意識到這些性影像他不單單只是性影像本身他背後可能產生的是一個兒童性剝削的一個產業鏈"},{"start":255.749,"end":282.669,"text":"那這個當然在這個狀況之下我覺得政府部門要努力的告訴大家就是說不要變成兒童性剝削的共犯這是講說社會公共意識的部分可是法規當然現在我們在努力想要是加重某些刑度這是修法的方向可是另外兩個面向我目前說真的我不知道就加強執法力度還有加強國際合作因為都已經跨國化了我不知道現在我們的具體策略是什麼"},{"start":283.694,"end":298.283,"text":"對,那這一個部分的話,第一個就是說有關於,其實他第二個,剛剛委員提到的第二點,那就是比較在技術層面,技術層面我們必須要有這種技術能夠來破解相關的這些事情"},{"start":298.703,"end":320.978,"text":"那這一個部分的話其實我們必須要把它看成什麼樣你有這樣的技術其實你也在做國安的保護包括恐怖的攻擊等等這方面其實都是相同的技術可以去對於這個網路上面的世界的話去做某種程度的預防的措施"},{"start":321.758,"end":345.701,"text":"那最後一個就國際的合作的這部分的話,的確以台灣在國際的這種地位的話,其實在談國際合作是有它一定的困難度。但是也不是說沒有辦法去做處理,那我們也可以透過NGO的網絡來加入,來做這一方面的一些合作。"},{"start":346.782,"end":353.83,"text":"拜託部長跟衛福部、整個政府能夠在這方面再加強一下。以上,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151698","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151698","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb35d2ad23962900c38b903698ddfaa754aeadb1108e4b84432752e8e2b45f25a6c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:46:39 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12:54:44","影片長度":"00:08:05","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":485,"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:54:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T12:46:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1255,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時46分）謝謝主席，有請衛福部長。部長，辛苦了。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，部長，有一個題目比較小，但是我覺得事情很大，跟我們今天要討論的事情有關，就是在你們目前交出來的書面報告裡面提到，關於兒少性剝削防制條例修法，對於抓到這些人的人員名單，目前你們只能說消極資格叫做不得任職於教職、兒少機構及司法機構，可是有沒有討論到要不要對外公開這件事情，我們後續會追蹤。之前你們受訪的時候是說還沒有研議，必須要相關修法，那我們想知道目前關於人員公開的部分，你們修法的方向。"],["張司長秀鴛：它也是屬於兒少權法裡面可以公開的。"],["陳委員培瑜：它是屬於兒少權法CRC四十九條的部分，所以……"],["薛部長瑞元：也是可以公開啦！"],["陳委員培瑜：會公開，確定？"],["張司長秀鴛：「得」啦！"],["陳委員培瑜：你們修法方向會往這裡走？"],["薛部長瑞元：可以公開啦！"],["陳委員培瑜：但是你們會提出來嘛？我們辦公室當然也會提，但是我要提出來，這一次有很多委員在修法上，不管是加重刑責或是相關的處罰，但是沒有人提到要不要把這些人的名字公開，這個非常危險，所以我們會持續追蹤。","我們想要講到之前，我們先從個案來看起，去年暑假期間，新竹有夏令營老師對學生做性侵，已經有相關判決出來，可是目前還在走司法流程。它不同於補習班、幼兒園、托兒所或是學校機構，我知道衛福部已經有在處理了，在上個月的記者會我們也提到，把教育部的部分也納進來，可是我們發現工作室（營隊）及各式各樣的運動俱樂部，他們不受社福、教育系統的管轄，他們用工商登記來登錄，所以這些大人，這些每天都會在運動、才藝科目接觸到小孩的大人，他們目前如果做出任何對兒少不利的行為，都是在三不管地帶。我想要問一下部長，怎麼辦？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分可能還是需要再討論一下，基本上，我的看法是這些應該還是比照，都可以來做……"],["陳委員培瑜：比照兒少法CRC四十九條，應該要公告，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們來看一下，也許之後是司法院你們要出來。我們往下跟衛福部討論，其實之前也有邀請你們到我們辦公室來討論，針對進入司法流程，可能還沒有走到最終判決的這些特殊個案，就如同新竹這個個案，他會繼續在民間開課哦！因為他還在走相關的判決。好，就算一審有相關判決了，可是家長會緊張啊！因為這個教練他已經確定判刑應該是三年多吧！家長們會互相通告，可是沒有在這個家長群組裡面的家長，他們可能還是不小心就把孩子送到這個教練的營隊裡面去，我剛剛已經說了，它是在工商登錄裡面，所以地方的教育局處跟社會局處都覺得不關他們的事情。","我們要回到中央，是中央要有相關法規讓地方教育局處得予遵守，可是我要說這不是個案耶！這會是通案耶！如果我們沒有更積極的態度，第一個，我們要問，相關的裁罰結果到底什麼時候才會出來？家長到底要等到什麼時候才可以查到行為人跟相關的機構？難道在所有司法判決結束之前，家長只能靠自救，然後口耳相傳，確保小孩不會被送到這些大人的手上嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然在司法機關，他們會採取勿枉勿縱的一個……"],["陳委員培瑜：可是我們之前跟司法機關的討論，要什麼時候回送、要不要回送，其實跟衛福部這邊也需要討論，當然我覺得大家會把行政主管機關的職責放在衛福部身上，所以我們才會在衛福部今天上臺的時候跟你們討論。你們如何更強制地跟相關司法機關討論，其實你們不是不能處理，就算他在司法判決的路上，我們有跟你們討論過，其實你們手上是有工具可以處理的，對嗎？要不要請司長幫忙回答一下？"],["薛部長瑞元：好，我請司長。"],["張司長秀鴛：謝謝委員。這一次我們在修兒權法裡頭有特別把所有兒少不當對待，不管是外人或家人，一旦是走刑事後面的訴追，我們有在法條裡頭要求檢警，特別是後端已經裁罰，已經確定判刑之後，相關的資料要回到主管機關、回到縣市，那我們就會把這些資料在第九十七條裡頭去做一些登記。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我再直接跟您討論，關於不起訴的部分，例如說新竹這個個案有兩個孩子，當時大人獲得不起訴處分是因為受害學童沒有辦法提供正確受害的時間，可是我知道後續有社工介入幫忙，對於不起訴的部分，我們可以怎麼做？"],["薛部長瑞元：不起訴處分，基本上就是……"],["陳委員培瑜：可是我們社工有介入去了解了，那衛福部這邊的態度跟角色呢？我想家長會擔心的是這個，因為我們今天在立法院討論這麼多複雜的法案，然後要入法、怎麼修，我覺得家長可能也沒有力氣跟時間，對家長來說，最直覺的就是當我要把小孩送去某一個營隊，我可以上CRC就是你們公布的那個網站去查某某某有沒有觸犯了什麼法，我可不可以放心把孩子交到他手上。可是如果像我剛剛說的，包含在走漫長司法判決的路上，我們查不到這個人，還有這個只是因為孩子沒有辦法正確提供受侵害的時間，所以得到不起訴處分的大人，我們其實還是會擔心，對嘛？我想現場的大人站在保護自己小孩的立場，我們也會擔心把孩子送到這樣的人的手上。","因為我時間有限，我們的訴求就是希望針對沒有納管的兒少相關機關，衛福部在3個月內要召集跨部會，包含教育部跟經濟部，盤點我剛剛說的營隊、工作室及運動俱樂部這些並沒有立案在你們所認知的教育系統或者是衛福系統裡面的大人跟環境，必須要訂定兒少保護跟管理的機制。再來就是兒童及少年保護通報與分級分類處理及調查辦法裡面，已經進入司法流程，就如剛剛司長您說的，不要讓它變成是漫漫長路，必須要司法跟行政雙軌並行，讓社政主管機關依照兒少權法，先行採取行政裁罰，有沒有機會？"],["薛部長瑞元：我想這個應該是有，先簡單來講，司法機關是對於犯罪的行為人給他究責。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，沒錯。"],["薛部長瑞元：但是行政機關可以做一個預防。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯。"],["薛部長瑞元：主要是預防，所以如果不是個人而是機構，包括教育部的機構、衛福部的機構，另外還有這一些……"],["陳委員培瑜：不在你們主管的機構範圍內。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，但是不管是怎麼樣的機構，如果有出現這種行為到某一個程度，比方說已經進入到偵查的情形，我們就可以先行做預防，要用公告還是用什麼樣的方式，這個可以再談，就是說讓同樣……"],["陳委員培瑜：家長可以查詢得到。"],["薛部長瑞元：家長可以查詢得到的方式，不要再把小孩子送到這些機構去，尤其是那個人如果還在的話。"],["陳委員培瑜：而且他可能還在持續開課當中。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以這裡面的話，是不是這一些機構要把這個嫌疑人先解除掉職務，或者是暫停他的……"],["陳委員培瑜：他可能自己就是負責人。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，沒有關係，這個……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒關係，我們時間有限，但是我非常肯定部長今天所有正向的回應，也就是說，部長完全有抓到重點，確實這個三不管地帶很需要我們大人及時補上。好，謝謝部長，謝謝司長，也謝謝主席。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳）：主席在這邊做一個宣告，在羅智強委員發言結束後，休息10分鐘。","現在請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 檢討 112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政\n署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具\n體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":1.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5.76846875,"end":11.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.215343750000002,"end":8.434718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.126593750000001,"end":9.497843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.03784375,"end":10.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.218468750000003,"end":23.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.195968750000002,"end":28.617218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.95471875,"end":49.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.99784375,"end":50.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":51.634718750000005,"end":55.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.963468750000004,"end":56.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":56.08971875,"end":59.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.21596875,"end":60.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":60.66284375,"end":115.91159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.94096875000001,"end":118.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.63659375,"end":131.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.16221875000002,"end":135.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.81159375000001,"end":189.92534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.34721875,"end":136.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.39346875,"end":137.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.95909375000002,"end":207.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.18409375000002,"end":213.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.82471875000002,"end":239.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.78471875000002,"end":225.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.97034375,"end":226.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.70221875000001,"end":243.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.02284375000002,"end":241.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.40221875,"end":251.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.89034375000003,"end":257.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.22284375000004,"end":271.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":271.46534375000005,"end":290.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.16221875,"end":297.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":296.65971875,"end":381.74346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.16534375000003,"end":419.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.64096875,"end":389.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":389.65784375000004,"end":390.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.77784375000005,"end":407.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.25659375000004,"end":446.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":433.54971875,"end":435.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":437.19471875000005,"end":437.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":445.75034375,"end":447.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.84284375000004,"end":448.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.26471875000004,"end":448.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.31534375,"end":461.62971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":461.83221875000004,"end":462.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":461.98409375000006,"end":475.90596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.70534375000005,"end":464.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.90596875000006,"end":476.36159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":476.34471875,"end":477.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":477.93096875000003,"end":484.96784375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.423,"end":11.231,"text":"委員諮詢。」好,謝謝主席。那有請衛福部長,謝謝。學部長。部長辛苦了辛苦了。"},{"start":15.276,"end":35.414,"text":"衛生福利部長有一個題目比較小先但是我覺得事情很大跟我們今天要討論的事情有關就是在你們目前交出來書面報告裡面提到關於這個人員的名單就是關於兒少性剝削防治條例修法關於抓到這些人的人員名單目前你們只能說消極資格叫做不得任職於教職兒少機構還有司法機構"},{"start":36.155,"end":48.921,"text":"可是有沒有討論到要不要對外公開這件事情?那我們後續會追蹤。目前之前你們受訪的時候是說還沒有研議必須要相關修法那我們想知道你們目前關於這個人員公開的部分你們修法的方向"},{"start":52.684,"end":75.894,"text":"他是屬於兒少全法CRC49條的部分所以會公開?確定?我們修法方向會往這裡走?但是你們會提出來嗎?我們辦公室當然也會提但是我要提出來這一次很多在修法委員上不管是加重刑責相關的處罰但是沒有人提到要不要把這些人名字公開這個非常危險所以我們會持續追蹤但是我們想要講到下一頁我們想要講到之前"},{"start":77.034,"end":94.684,"text":"我們先從個案來看起,去年暑假期間有新一組的夏令營老師對學生做性侵,然後已經有相關判決也出來,可是他目前還在走司法流程。那不同於補習班幼兒園、托兒所或是學校機構,我知道衛福部已經有在處理的,上個月的記者會我們提到,把教育部的部分也納進來,可是我們發現工作是刮鬍營"},{"start":98.166,"end":115.676,"text":"各式各樣的運動俱樂部,他們不受社福教育系統的管轄,他們用工商登記來登錄,所以這些大人,這些每天都會運動才藝科目接觸到小孩的大人,他們目前如果做出任何對兒少不利的行為,再三不管地帶。」我想要問一下部長怎麼辦?"},{"start":122.024,"end":142.813,"text":"這部分的話可能要還是要需要再討論一下啦我基本上我的看法是這些的話應該還是比照都可以可以來做比照而上法C-49條他應該要公告對不對可是好我們來看一下也許之後是法務部司法院你們要出來下一頁"},{"start":143.633,"end":160.936,"text":"我們往下跟衛福部討論其實我們辦公室之前也有邀請你們到我們辦公室來討論關於進入司法流程他可能還沒有走到最終判決的這些特殊的個案就如同新竹這個個案那他就會繼續在民間開課因為他還在走相關的判決就算一審有相關判決了"},{"start":161.977,"end":189.209,"text":"可是家長會緊張啊因為這個教練他已經確定判刑應該是三年多吧可是家長們會互相通告可是沒有在這個家長群組裡面的家長他們可能還是不小心就把孩子送到這個教練營隊裡面去可是我剛剛已經說他在工商登錄裡面所以就地方的教育局處跟社會局處都覺得不關他們的事情那我們要回到中央是中央要有相關法規讓地方教育局處等於遵守可是我要說這不是個案這會是通案"},{"start":190.47,"end":206.602,"text":"如果我們沒有更積極的態度,一個是我們要問相關的裁罰結果到底什麼時候才會出來?家長到底要等到什麼時候才可以查到行為人跟相關的機構?難道在所有司法判決結束之前,家長只能靠自救,然後口耳相傳,確保小孩不會被送到這些大人的手上嗎?"},{"start":208.74,"end":226.715,"text":"這當然在司法機關他們會採取一個誤而誤得可是我們之前跟司法機關討論要什麼時候回送然後要不要回送其實跟衛福部這邊也需要討論那當然我覺得大家會把行政主管機關的職責放在衛福部身上所以我們才會在衛福部今天上台的時候跟你們討論"},{"start":227.876,"end":256.047,"text":"你們如何更強制的跟相關司法機關的討論你們其實不是不能處理就算他在司法判決的這個路上其實我們跟你們討論過你們其實是有手上是有工具可以處理的對嗎要不要請司長幫忙回答一下謝謝委員那這一次我們在修兒權法裡頭有特別把所有兒少不當對待不管是外人或家人那一旦是走刑事後面的訴追那我們有在法條裡頭要求"},{"start":257.847,"end":268.332,"text":"檢警特別是這個後端已經裁罰已經確定判刑之後相關的資料要回到這個主管機關回到縣市那我們就會把這些資料在97條裡頭去做一些登記好那我再直接跟您討論還有這個不起訴的部分例如說以新竹這個個案有兩個孩子他們的"},{"start":279.06,"end":290.179,"text":"當時說這個大人獲得不起訴處分是因為受害學童沒有辦法提供正確的受害時間可是我知道後續有社工介入幫忙那關於這個不起訴的部分我們可以怎麼做"},{"start":294.478,"end":320.707,"text":"這不起訴處分基本上就是...可是我們社工有進入去我們社工有介入去了解了嘛那衛福部這邊的態度跟角色呢我想家長會擔心的是這個因為我們今天所有在立法院討論這麼多複雜的法案啊然後入法怎麼修我覺得家長可能也沒有力氣跟時間可是對家長來說最直覺就是當我要把小孩送去某一個營隊我可以上CRC就是你們公佈的那個網站去查某某某他有沒有觸犯了什麼法我可不可以放心把孩子交到他的手上"},{"start":321.147,"end":343.322,"text":"可是如果我剛剛說的,包含在走這個漫長司法判決的路上,我們查不到這個人,還有這個只是因為孩子沒有辦法正確提供受侵害的時間,所以得到不起訴處分這個大人,我們其實還是會擔心,對嗎?我想現場的大人站在保護自己的小孩立場,我們也會擔心把孩子送到這樣的人手上,所以我們的訴求現在也有時間有限,謝謝。我們的訴求就是我們希望針對沒有納管的兒少相關機關"},{"start":345.923,"end":361.812,"text":"衛福部在三個月內要召集跨部會包含教育部跟經濟部盤點我剛剛說的營隊、工作室、運動俱樂部這些他並沒有立案在你們所認知的教育系統或者是衛福系統裡面的這些相關的大人跟環境必須要定定而上保護跟管理的機制"},{"start":362.492,"end":381.239,"text":"再來就是兒童及少年保護通報分級分類處理的調查辦法裡面已經進入司法流程就如剛司長您說的不要讓它變成一個漫漫長路而必須要把司法跟行政雙軌並行讓社政及主管機關依照兒少全法先行採取行政裁法有沒有機會"},{"start":382.659,"end":408.444,"text":"我想這應該是有啦那先簡單來講司法機關是對於犯罪的嫌疑人給他救救是沒錯但是行政機關可以做一個預防沒錯他的主要是預防所以如果說這一些不是個人而是說機構包括這一個教育部的機構衛福部的機構另外還有這一些不在這些你們主管的機構的範圍內但是不管是怎麼樣的機構的話"},{"start":409.944,"end":436.926,"text":"如果有出現這種行為,到某一個程度,比如說已經進入到偵查的情形,那我們就可以先行做預防性的,要用公告還是用什麼樣的方式的話,這可以再談,但是以一個就是說讓這一個同樣可以查詢得到的一個方式"},{"start":438.007,"end":461.157,"text":"那以便就是說不要說再把小孩子送到送到這些裡面去尤其是那個人如果還在的話而且他可能還持續開課當中所以這裡面的話就是說是不是這一些的機構那要把這個當事那個嫌疑人的話先把他先解除掉職務或或者是"},{"start":462.057,"end":484.332,"text":"他可能自己就是負責人,沒關係我們時間有限,但是我非常肯定部長今天所有正向的回應,也就是說部長你完全有抓到重點,確實這個三部管地帶很需要我們大人及時補上。好,那謝謝部長,謝謝司長,也謝謝主席,謝謝。主席在這邊做一個宣告,在羅志強委員發言結束休息10分鐘,現在請羅志強委員發言。"}]}},{"id":"151697","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151697","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3cdc854767414e120b903698ddfaa754aeadb1108e4b84432b36af2056dcf8b7c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:35:37 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12:46:37","影片長度":"00:11:00","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":660,"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:46:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T12:35:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1198,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時35分）主席謝謝，麻煩請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。部長，上一次在兒少性剝削專報裡面，我有提出應該要成立數位性犯罪的專責單位、斬斷非法金流以及建立兒少犯罪資料庫這三個政策方向，當時也獲得你這邊的承諾，然後來去做，所以4月19日本席也看到了，你有召集司法院、法務部、內政部、數發部、NCC以及金管會來召開修法方向會議，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是本席認為我們真的要玩真的，以及真的要嚇阻犯罪的狀況，還有最重要的就是要有效，其實兩大方向啦！第一點是簡化封網流程跟主動搜尋相關網站及金流，第二點是針對非法的金流要有效地嚇阻，有效地阻斷。","第一，我先請教一下，在4月19日裡面有提到，增訂相關機關運用網路科技主動偵查兒少性影像案件，這個會由哪一個機關去負責？主責單位。"],["薛部長瑞元：以目前的話，還是在衛福部這邊會來做負責。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以未來是衛福部相關的單位會成立一個主要的機關、網路的搜尋小組，去看網路上有哪些非法的兒少性影像？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們目前的規劃是這樣子，因為有一個「科技偵查法」現在在行政院，它的主管機關應該是在法務部，但是那個法要通過可能要很長的時間，所以現階段我們預計大概會由衛福部來委託、委外來做辦理。當然要做封網這個動作是屬於行政處分，這個還是衛福部必須要負責，但是前面用科技的方法來幫我們做這種搜尋的話，我們是可以委外來辦理。"],["洪委員孟楷：是衛福部，然後委外部辦理，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，為什麼本席認為這很重要？因為兒少性剝削如果就這一個案件來講，所謂的「創意私房」，一般人其實是不知道，但是它存在多久？就媒體的報導，它已經存在很久，而且會員招收很多，所以這有點類似說內行人一個牽一個，一般社會大眾不知道，但是內行人有專門管道一個牽一個，代表這樣的犯罪其實是行之有年，如果說我們沒有主動去偵查的話，恐怕如果不是因為這一次有藝人的事件爆發，我們還不知道到底已經受害多久，所以這當然要主動去偵查。主動的部分是由衛福部這邊來做，預計多久會成立這樣的單位？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前我們有幾個步驟，第一個就是要先找相關這方面領域的一些專家來討論，也就是說，我們招標的規格要怎麼樣訂……"],["洪委員孟楷：會用一個標案，然後會去委託公司來處理。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，但是這個標案的內容要怎麼樣寫，因為我們不是這方面的內行……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，預計多久會出來？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們希望一、兩個禮拜就可以……"],["洪委員孟楷：一、兩個禮拜？"],["薛部長瑞元：完成招標的規劃書，我們的RFP就可以出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以看起來部長有信心在卸任之前，能夠有這樣一個標案出來，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：是，我希望可以做得到。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。另外一個部分，本席有提到金流很重要，為什麼？殺頭的生意有人做，賠錢的生意沒人做，為什麼會有這麼多人明明知道這是違法的，但是他還去做？是因為有賺錢啦！那怎麼樣把非法的金流給阻斷，這很重要，一個是非法金流阻斷，另外一個就是我加重你的犯罪成本，讓你知道你賺這種黑心錢、貪心錢，一旦被抓到，你要付出的成本很高。那我請教，在這一次裡面，你們有召開兒童及少年性剝削修法方向的會議，針對營利或者是販售，你們有沒有做討論？"],["薛部長瑞元：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，因為我們委員也有好幾個版本，我自己也有提出相關的修法版本，如果你是拿兒童性影像去做營利或販售的話，我們行政單位建議，現在最高要處多少的罰款跟多少的刑責？"],["薛部長瑞元：在本來的條文裡面，意圖營利就是有加重處罰。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，沒錯。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們這一次的修法，在建議的條文裡面是要把付費者這個部分也入法，要去處罰。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席完全接受，我也認為你去持有跟你花錢去購買兒少性影像是完全不同的，等於是你花錢購買要加重處分。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，供需兩方嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：但是一樣，供給的部分，本席在講嘛！製毒跟販毒應該是要更嚴格的處罰，那一樣，我現在講的是營利或者是販售，我們在這一次有沒有提出相關的？"],["薛部長瑞元：這一次倒沒有特別提出，因為本來的條文就有加重其刑二分之一，本來是1到7年，加二分之一，這是本來的條文就有的。是否需要再增加，我想這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：我有看到很多委員的版本，甚至有建議3年以上或者是5年以上，營利的部分我覺得適時地加重，可能之後我們逐條可以再討論。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，這個可以再討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是重點是在於加強他的犯罪成本，我覺得這是應該的。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後，你們在4月19日的開會討論裡面，沒有講到任何關於怎麼樣阻斷非法金流。"],["薛部長瑞元：有討論，但是因為技術上的……"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！但是你們今天提出來的部分，沒有任何違法金流的阻斷，所以我們現在講了很多，討論了很多都是說我怎麼樣抓到，我怎麼樣能夠嚴刑立法，但是現在的問題是不是抓不到？有可能他在海外，第一，抓不到；第二，他在海外持續有賺錢。之前也有很多的這種論壇有變形啊！因為是數位影像，所以他複製很容易，也因此今天封了A論壇，他可能複製之後直接在B，換一個IP或是換一個架設又再上網。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果等我們查到，然後再去封網，他又換成C，那金流的部分怎麼樣阻斷？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分我們在19日討論的時候，沒有結論的原因就是……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有結論，沒有具體，有討論但沒有結論。"],["薛部長瑞元：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：是大家在互相推託？"],["薛部長瑞元：不是，因為這個有一些技術上面的問題，相關單位必須要繼續去研議，所以我們這一次的建議條文沒有把它放進來的原因是在這個地方。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你這樣講，本席打開天窗說亮話，因為我覺得金流的部分不應該只就衛福部一個部會，這點本席是站在客觀公允的高度。本席剛剛也看了一下今天所有各部會的報告，我也再拜託，今天因為部會不是部長來，所以我不要求你們上臺，但是媒體朋友以及大家在看直播的人也都看到，你的內政部也是講有賴跨部會的合作，意思是內政部、警政署配合啦！你的數發部是配合中央主管機關的指示，你的金管會是全力協助司法警察機關的偵辦，這3個部會都在踢皮球哦？我講實在話，你踢我、我踢你，如果再這樣下去的話，我們足球的產業可以蓬勃發展，教育部用6年來推動足球產業提升，倒不如我們幾個部會大家多踢幾次皮球，非常難看，我真的講，非常難看。","金流其實是非法集團他們賴以維生，為什麼這些非法集團春風吹又生、斬草除不盡？就是因為他們賺得了錢，如果我們還要放任兒少性影像變成是非法集團賺錢工具的話，任何一個國人都沒有辦法接受，所以歹勢，部長，什麼時候還會再開會，把金流這個部分納進來？"],["薛部長瑞元：我想這個我們可以再安排。"],["洪委員孟楷：可以再安排是什麼時候？你剛剛很有guts，520前你要成立專責小組，那520前能不能再開會，讓大家看到是哪一個機關？其實我說實在話，金流沒有辦法阻斷，你就很難保不會有B、有C再出來。"],["薛部長瑞元：明天我們有一個會，金管會也會在，我們會再提這一個案子。"],["洪委員孟楷：能不能更要求金管會？金管會在4月19日派哪一個層級的人過來？他們派誰來？其實我問過金管會，甚至主委，我都講說你銀行內部的東西管得很好，但是出了銀行以外的，好像都是一問三不知或是三不管地帶，反正不關它的事。能不能要求更高層級的人一起來開會？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們在聯絡的時候，會特別跟他們提醒。"],["洪委員孟楷：本席真的希望是玩真的，所以這是為什麼你有做的部分我肯定，但沒做的部分我也要點出來，讓大家看到其他部會還沒有跟上。我真的認為在這件事情上面，衛福部相對來講有跑，但其他部會沒有跟上，大家還是覺得這是衛福部的事，推給衛福部，反正520後部長都會換一批，就看誰接下來要處理這個爛攤子。能夠做事我肯定，但我更希望各部會都要跟上，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員瑩代）：謝謝洪委員。","接下來請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 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。"},{"start":98.981,"end":113.313,"text":"這部分的話我們目前的規劃是這樣子的因為這一個有一個科技偵查法現在在行政院他的主管機關應該是在內政部法務部是在法務部"},{"start":114.013,"end":140.188,"text":"但是那個法要通過可能要有很長的一個時間所以現階段我們預計大概是會由衛福部來委託就是說委外來做辦理那當然要做封網這個動作的話屬於行政處分這還是衛福部必須要負責但是前面的這些用科技的方法來幫我們去做這種搜尋的話那我們是可以來委外來辦理"},{"start":141.348,"end":159.459,"text":"衛福部委外部辦理為什麼本期認為說這很重要因為兒少性剝削如果說就這個案件來講所謂的這個私房啊這個私房一般人其實是不知道但它存在多久"},{"start":160.299,"end":179.658,"text":"就媒體的報導他已經存在很久而且會員招收很多所以這有點類似說內行人一個牽一個一般社會大眾不知道但是有內行人專門管道一個牽一個那代表說這樣犯罪其實行之有年那如果說我們沒有主動的去偵查的話恐怕不是因為這一次有所謂的這個藝人的事件爆發"},{"start":180.379,"end":207.264,"text":"我們還不知道說到底有受害多久所以這當然要主動去偵查所以主動的部分是由衛福部這邊來做預計多久會成立這樣的一個單位目前我們先有幾個步驟嘛第一個要先找這一個相關這方面領域的一些專家來討論也就是說我們那個招標的這個規格會用一個標案然後會去委託公司來去處理"},{"start":207.944,"end":223.683,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、"},{"start":225.325,"end":249.619,"text":"好,所以,看起來是部長有信心在卸任之前能夠有這樣的一個標案出來,是不是?是,我希望是可以做得到啦好,來,部長,那另外一個部分喔本席有提到是說金流很重要為什麼?殺頭的生意有人做賠錢的生意沒人做為什麼會有這麼多人明明知道說這是違法的但是他還去做,是因為五判級啦那怎麼樣"},{"start":250.419,"end":272.289,"text":"把非法的金流給阻斷這很重要一個是非法金流阻斷另外一個就我加重你犯罪成本讓你知道說你賺這種黑心錢貪心錢你要付出一旦被抓到你要付出的成本很高那我請教在這一次裡面沒有召開兒童少年性剝削的這個修法方向的部分針對盈利或者是販售"},{"start":273.513,"end":292.075,"text":"你們有沒有做討論?有那預計我們最高因為我們委員有好幾個我自己也有提出相關的手法版本那我們這個行政部門這邊預計如果說你是拿兒童性影像來去做盈利或販售的話我們現在期待最高要處多少的罰款跟多少的刑責"},{"start":294.165,"end":303.212,"text":"我們行政單位建議本來的條文裡面意圖營利就是有加重處罰現在是我們這一次的修完我們的建議的條文裡面是要"},{"start":304.437,"end":328.38,"text":"把這個付費者付費者這個部分的話也把它入法就是說要去處罰本席完全接受我也認為是說你有你去持有跟說你花錢去購買兒少性影像這個是完全不同的你是等於是你花錢購買這要加重處分但是一樣供給的部分本席在講嘛"},{"start":329,"end":351.377,"text":"制毒跟販毒是一樣是一樣的這個刑責嗎?應該是要更嚴格的一個處罰嗎?那一樣我現在講的是說營利或者是說販售的話我們在這一次有沒有提出相關的?這一次倒沒有特別這個因為本來的條本來的條文就有加這種期限二分之一本來是一到七一年"},{"start":352.157,"end":356.901,"text":"家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴零容忍-檢討112年"},{"start":380.939,"end":391.492,"text":"沒有講到任何關於怎麼樣阻斷非法金流有討論啦,但是但是你們今天提出來的部分沒有任何違法金流的一個阻斷"},{"start":393.208,"end":416.377,"text":"所以我們現在在講的很多討論的很多都是講說我怎麼樣抓到我怎麼樣能夠讓他嚴刑立法但是現在的問題是不是抓不到他有可能他海外第一抓不到第二是他在海外持續有賺錢之前有很多的這種論壇有變形因為數位影像所以他複製很容易"},{"start":417.017,"end":429.509,"text":"也因此今天封了A論壇他可能複製之後他直接再B換一個IP或是換一個這個架設又再上網那如果說我們等到查到然後我們再去封網他又換成C"},{"start":431.385,"end":452.219,"text":"金流的部分怎麼樣阻斷?所以這一個部分為什麼我們那個19號討論的時候沒有結論的原因沒有結論沒有具體有討論但沒有結論是大家在互相拖拖因為在有一些技術上面的問題這個必須要相關的單位還繼續要去研議"},{"start":455.121,"end":462.287,"text":"所以這部分的話我們這一次的那個建議的條文就沒有把它放進來的原因是在這個地方"},{"start":463.513,"end":491.676,"text":"你這樣講啊本席打開天窗說亮話因為我覺得這個金流的部分就不應該只就衛福部一個部會這點本席站在客觀公允的高度本席剛剛也看了一下我們今天所有各部會的報告我也在拜託今天因為部會不是部長來所以我不要求你們上台但是真的請媒體朋友以及我們大家看直播的人也都看到"},{"start":493.393,"end":510.103,"text":"你的內政部也是講有賴跨部會的合作意思是內政部、警政署配合啦你的訴發部配合主管、中央主管機關的指示"},{"start":511.431,"end":538.139,"text":"你的金管會全力協助司法警察機關的偵辦這三個部會都在踢皮球我講實在話你踢我我踢你如果再這樣下去的話我們足球的產業可以蓬勃發展六年教育部推動我們的足球產業提升倒不如我們幾個部會大家多踢幾次皮球非常難看"},{"start":540.205,"end":567.032,"text":"我真的講非常難看金流其實是非法集團他們引賴維生為什麼這些非法集團吹風吹又生斬草除不盡就是因為他們賺得了錢那如果我們還要放任我們的兒少性影像是變成是非法集團的賺錢工具的話我們任何一個國人都沒有辦法接受所以不好意思抱歉什麼時候還在開會會把金流的這個部分給納進來"},{"start":569.035,"end":577.486,"text":"我想說我們可以再安排啦可以再安排是什麼時候?你剛剛很有尬子520前你要成立這個專責小組那520前能不能再開會"},{"start":579.196,"end":597.126,"text":"讓大家看到是說到底是哪一個機關其實我說實在話金流沒有辦法阻斷你就很難保會有B會有C再出來明天我們有一個會啦那金管會也會再來我們會再提這一個案子能不能更要求金管會金管會在4月16號派哪一個層級的人過來音姐派一項來"},{"start":602.455,"end":623.716,"text":"我其實問過警管會甚至主委我講是說你銀行內部的東西你管得很好但是除了銀行以外的好像都是疑問三部或是說都是三部管理的完全沒有關係的事情能不能要求更高層級的人一起來開會我們在聯絡的時候我們會特別跟他們提醒"},{"start":625.632,"end":643.994,"text":"本席真的希望是完真的所以這是為什麼我肯定你有做的部分我肯定但沒做的部分我也要點出來讓大家看到其他部會還沒有跟上我真的認為說在這件事情上面衛福部相對來講有跑但其他部會沒有跟上大家還是覺得這是衛福部的事啊"},{"start":645.424,"end":656.229,"text":"推給衛福部啊,那反正520前部長大家都換一批啊,所以就看誰接下來要處理這個爛攤子。能夠做事我肯定,但我更希望是各部會都要跟上。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151696","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151696","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3033038e89a015e396abc9c09ba589754eadb1108e4b8443255cb995b5bd8e5235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"12:29:41 - 12:36:54","影片長度":"00:07:13","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":433,"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:36:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T12:29:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":934,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（12時29分）主席、與會同仁，請內政部次長、國土署署長和住都中心執行長。"],["主席：請次長、署長和執行長。"],["吳次長容輝：委員好！"],["吳委員琪銘：謝謝！","今天審查我們的國籍法，真的也很高興我們又更加邁了一大步。關於黑戶寶寶的困境，我們都知道現在臺灣面臨很多黑戶，但幼兒是無辜的，所以這幾年不管是外勞或新住民產生很多無國籍兒少，這個困境今天經過大家充分的討論，也得到共同的共識。","我在這邊比較注重的是地震，本席有一項建議。我的選區在土城，而土城在這起地震中也被危害到，而從我手中的資料就知道，4月3號地震的震後重建經費已經交付二讀，有150億，包含紅單以及黃單建築的整建。重建過程中，預算適用的範圍是全國還是個別地區，像是花蓮這個地方？是不是可以請次長或署長來作說明？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實以現在的建築設計，在921以後已經全面提高整體耐震標準，基本上，現在業界所講的隔震、制震也是在現行標準以上再自行增設。當然這是業者在標準之外願意再提高的，目前並沒有強制要求所有公共設施都要照這樣做，因為現有的現行標準其實大致上都已經足夠因應現在的狀態。但是仍要去推廣好的，我們會持續推動。"],["吳委員琪銘：不，本席比較關心的是紅單，因為列為紅單的部分就是一定要拆除嘛！是不是？"],["吳署長欣修：紅單不一定，有些在做耐震補強之後，如果可以的話，我們也建議直接進行到這裡。像花蓮現在就有19件已經列入輔導去做耐震補強，業主也有意願，這樣的話是可以的。"],["吳委員琪銘：在土城，紅單列管的就有5處，黃單就有7處。"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：這些居民大家都是恐慌性，他們也不敢住。既然他們不敢住，政府編列這筆預算是不是也要研究怎麼給他們協助，讓他們能夠重建？對於經費問題，中央這150億金額有辦法浥注多少？在受災戶心理上總是希望不要負擔那麼重的情形下，是不是請署長針對這筆經費問題研究？"],["吳署長欣修：有。跟委員報告，就以有關重建部分而言，在賑災基金會的委員會，副院長都有召開會議來協調，我們也提出一些方案的建議，就是針對重建的補助，當然，之前照署的規定是有利息補貼。我知道有些受災戶因為房子已經震塌，卻同時面對舊貸款要還，如果要購置新的或重建，又要新的經費，所以希望針對舊的建築物也能夠給予他們一些補貼，也就是對於舊的建築物算是給予補貼款、給他一筆費用，這樣不管是要拿去還舊貸款或要買新房子都可以用，也可以用在重建要用的經費。對於這個部分，我們有提出一些建議了，應該這幾天院這邊也會公布。"],["吳委員琪銘：好。署長，最主要的是災民這些房屋已經軟腳了，就算補強，對他們來說，他們住了也不安心，你看，這幾天又有餘震。"],["吳署長欣修：了解。"],["吳委員琪銘：所以，在這種情形下，大家共同的心聲就是如果拆除，政府能提撥多少給他們作為補助？"],["吳署長欣修：了解。"],["吳委員琪銘：這屬於比較實際的嘛！"],["吳署長欣修：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：對於這個部分，請你們研究，再把資料給我，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：好，我想這幾天應該會公布。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，那你把資料給我，因為我仍要讓受災戶知道未來要推動、要走的路，讓他們能比較安心啦！"],["吳署長欣修：這件案子也感謝委員。"],["吳委員琪銘：我還要拜託住都中心和署長一件事。臺灣位處地震帶，也就是菲律賓海板塊的地震帶，但社會住宅隸屬公家單位，我們是不是該將隔震設計列為標配？包括慈濟醫院在內，很多建築都做了隔震，因為臺灣在地震帶。尤其是公家單位所做的建築一定要率先走這條路，讓大家對臺灣建築物的結構安全更加有信心，這是未來應該推動的。"],["吳署長欣修：向委員報告，現在的社會住宅原則上一定要拿到耐震標章，因為耐震標章是執行力很嚴格的，在過程中，結構技師與土木技師在很多階段都要介入，實際現勘、實際確認工序符合耐震標準才能讓它做，所以社宅的耐震標章老實說在臺灣已經算是很高的。至於委員所建議的這些隔震設施在現有標準以外還要外加嗎？其實我們現在透過很多種方式加強，雖然不一定是完全。但委員這個建議很好，我和住都中心都會研究看看能不能外加這些隔震設施。"],["吳委員琪銘：由於臺灣位在這樣的地層帶，希望你們能讓民眾覺得政府所做的讓大家更加有信心。因為在臺灣地震隨時都會發生，所以這是我們未來要加以注重的。"],["吳署長欣修：好。"],["吳委員琪銘：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳琪銘召委。","再來，高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員、高金素梅委員不在。"],["主席（吳委員琪銘）：登記發言委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員黃仁、牛煦庭所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢及未答復部分請相關單位於一周內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-14","speakers":["吳琪銘","莊瑞雄","羅美玲","陳玉珍","黃捷","陳培瑜","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","吳沛憶","王美惠","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","李柏毅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","黃國昌","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳菁徽","陳冠廷","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案；二、審查內政\n部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)\n行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六\n條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國\n籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員\n林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員莊\n瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案、 (十五)委員林岱樺等\n17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四\n條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.70596875,"end":2.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.77346875,"end":1.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.68034375,"end":3.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.6590937500000003,"end":5.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.46034375,"end":7.101593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.51909375,"end":9.109718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.34596875,"end":10.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.82659375,"end":12.113468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.294718750000001,"end":19.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.247218750000002,"end":59.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.62909375,"end":62.282843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.51909375,"end":69.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.19721875,"end":81.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.27971875,"end":89.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.12659375000001,"end":120.68721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.53096875000001,"end":131.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.11596875,"end":131.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.38596875000002,"end":136.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.39784375000002,"end":160.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.92284375,"end":152.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.19596875000002,"end":164.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.56221875,"end":164.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.69721875000002,"end":164.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.74784375000002,"end":165.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.81534375,"end":169.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.42221875,"end":174.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.34971875000002,"end":181.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.43721875,"end":183.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.27659375000002,"end":183.58034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.58034375000003,"end":183.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.96846875,"end":186.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.39846875,"end":191.27534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.83721875,"end":187.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.90846875000003,"end":190.36409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.49471875,"end":201.70409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.70409375000003,"end":202.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.92346875,"end":208.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.01596875,"end":204.26909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.41596875000002,"end":222.05534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.98846875,"end":218.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.09346875000003,"end":221.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.39284375000003,"end":280.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.21784375000001,"end":235.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.28659375,"end":254.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.24034375,"end":302.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.80909375000005,"end":285.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.89346875,"end":286.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.24971875,"end":301.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.81909375000004,"end":306.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.03846875,"end":303.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.61596875000004,"end":310.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.03784375000004,"end":308.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.68721875,"end":320.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.17659375,"end":310.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.39159375,"end":311.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.50971875000005,"end":311.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.63096875,"end":320.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.62221875,"end":339.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.53909375,"end":340.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.68221875,"end":362.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.37096875000003,"end":365.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.57721875000004,"end":366.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.84284375000004,"end":368.42909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.12096875000003,"end":371.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.42846875000004,"end":407.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.80534375,"end":391.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.56409375000004,"end":396.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.47909375,"end":399.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.86596875000004,"end":422.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","star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12:35:32","影片長度":"00:08:19","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":499,"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:35:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T12:27:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1158,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（12時27分）謝謝召委，我可不可以請部長？"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：部長，從常次到部長期間，其實過去這一段時間，我雖然中間有4年離開立法院，但是跟您交手的機會，跟您互動的機會其實非常多，我們也認為上臺、下臺的高度跟身影都非常非常重要。在這個過程當中，你經歷了COVID-19的疫情，也經歷了包括寶林案等等，寶林茶室的案子，我覺得大家都經歷很多的挑戰，但是經歷過挑戰之後，我覺得大家都在看，在很多制度面上我們有沒有調整得更好是重點。","部長，我也要跟您討論幾個案子，其實上次我們有答詢過，但是我還是要追一下進度，我們擔心很多議題、政策的推動會不會人去政息，包括第一個，我們長期關注的，衛福部公告的護理人員夜班獎勵方案，我想你非常清楚，之前也引起很大的風波，因為醫學中心、區域醫院跟地區醫院實在是差太多，大夜班加1,000元，區域醫院加800元，地區醫院加600元。後來有調整新的方案，引起反彈之後，因為護理人員流動會非常快，心也非常地浮動，那新方案已經出來了，上個禮拜在財政委員會我特別問了主計長，我說這個預算是1.13億，上次我問衛福部的時候，您回答我說這個還要再上簽，但是後來我問主計長，主計長說錢都在那邊啊！無論是疫後的紓困預算或者是你們自己的預算，其實你自己動用就可以，不需要再簽到他那邊了。因為地區醫院很多護理人員都在關注這件事情，我想你我都不希望護理人員有太大的流動，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["李委員彥秀：所以這筆錢到底什麼時候會下來？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們本來是希望能夠動用200億的公務預算補助，但是現在就是我們原先預估的27億夜班費，第一階段這個部分算起來會有剩餘，所以大概可以cover這個1.13億。"],["李委員彥秀：所以什麼時候會……"],["薛部長瑞元：應該最近健保署要簽上來給我了。"],["李委員彥秀：這個禮拜之內可以嗎？今天是禮拜……"],["薛部長瑞元：今天是禮拜三。"],["李委員彥秀：這個禮拜有沒有機會？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們再看看，下禮拜可能比較穩。"],["李委員彥秀：不然下禮拜三，一個禮拜之內，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["李委員彥秀：一個禮拜之內把它簽出來，謝謝部長。","第二個我關注的議題，我今天其實有聽到其他委員也在問這個議題，就是有關於電價上漲對醫療院所的衝擊，特別是對於小型的醫療診所、偏鄉，還有一般的醫療診所，其實都有很大的衝擊。上次在院會答詢的時候，你們有在研擬一些方案，現在行政程序上到底討論到哪個進度？到底有沒有機會？因為電價漲，其實後續的成本整個都在漲，還不只是診所漲而已。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為這件事情在衛福部這邊是比較沒有著力的點，因為我們沒有預算，沒有補貼電價的預算，那據我所知，在行政院討論的時候，它是打算用補貼給台電的1,000億裡面去處理。"],["李委員彥秀：挪勻，對。因為包括一些學校，這一次有補助的就是學校、社福單位，我覺得醫療品質也是很重要，所以部長離開的身影，我知道你非常照顧他們。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會儘量來爭取啦！"],["李委員彥秀：1,000億裡面……"],["薛部長瑞元：但是這個決定不會是在……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，我覺得在這一塊，我希望我們再努力一下，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["李委員彥秀：下個星期我希望可以有一些具體的答案出來，因為這都是代表你照顧基層醫療院所，有聽到他們的聲音，過去他們配合我們在疫苗政策上、在家庭醫療制度上，我覺得他們都協助很多，偏鄉也是，我覺得這個沒有什麼圖利的問題，在現階段一下子上漲造成後續的衝擊其實都非常大，所以這一塊我也希望部長可以協助。","最後一個，部長，最近腸病毒的狀況其實非常嚴重，也是10年來的新高，門診跟急診的就醫人次在3月份最後一週增加到20%，將近21%，病例增加的幅度是非常高的。我們都知道預防腸病毒很重要的是多洗手，除了用肥皂洗手，在醫學上次氯酸水也具有很好的殺菌效果，很多醫生都表示它適合用於手部滅菌、滅病毒等等，在國際間也有很多人使用，對於這樣的見解，我們有沒有機會多宣導、多鼓勵？在政策上有沒有機會多討論？因為用肥皂水洗手是不是可以滅菌，有沒有機會我們再調整一下，多宣導用次氯酸水？"],["薛部長瑞元：肥皂水本身是沒有滅菌的功能，但是用肥皂水清洗之後是可以把病毒沖掉，一般如果要用次氯酸水的話，因為它的普及性可能沒有那麼高，那現在最多的流行會是在學校，尤其是小孩子、幼兒園等等這一些，是不是都能夠在洗手的地方配置這個，而且……"],["李委員彥秀：沒關係，我覺得這個就是宣導，次氯酸水具有良好的毒殺效果，有很多醫生都表示適用於手部的滅菌、滅病毒等等，因為不是每個地方都剛好有肥皂可以洗手，所以我覺得就是多宣導，我們希望把腸病毒的狀況降低，請部長在內部再討論一下，可以多設置一些這樣的設備來加強，我不希望大家都擠在這個高峰不斷地擴大下去。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，可能還會再往高……"],["李委員彥秀：這是我的建議。最後一個要討論到今天的議題，部長，我上次跟您質詢有關輔導教育的功能，包括在性剝削上的，您上次提到有一些課程上的輔導，其實我們都覺得效果不好，要檢討輔導教育的功能。您上次回答我說你們會檢討，那這個政策檢討，因為看看影片其實對於這些加害者也好，或者是有犯罪目的的這些人，我覺得效果並不好，我們要怎麼調整是重點，所以這一塊會不會有進度？檢討的進度是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：其實明天我們開會就會討論這一塊，目前可能是這樣子，對於這些加害人可能要先做評估啦！因為有一些接受輔導教育這種強制治療，大概效果都不好，但是有一些還是有它的效果。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得可以個別做心理的輔導，這是我長期所關注的，矯正的功能很重要，我希望可以好好地落實。"],["薛部長瑞元：要看他實際上的狀況是怎麼樣。"],["李委員彥秀：層次上的差異性，對，我知道，所以部長，我們還是要做，因為每一次藉由討論，讓我們的法令更完整、更周延，其實是最主要的目的。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝李彥秀委員。","接下來請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 檢討 112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政\n署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具\n體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.98784375,"end":8.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.945343750000001,"end":8.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.020343750000002,"end":14.560343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.982218750000001,"end":24.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.20846875,"end":29.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.984093750000003,"end":30.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.08096875,"end":39.720968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.125968750000006,"end":44.344718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.665343750000005,"end":53.862218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.469718750000006,"end":137.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.65096875,"end":147.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.85596875000002,"end":156.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.93471875,"end":159.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.49971875,"end":167.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.75659375,"end":163.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.56596875000002,"end":171.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.58221875,"end":171.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.76784375,"end":173.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.91971875000002,"end":173.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.26971875,"end":173.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.55659375000002,"end":217.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.03659375,"end":180.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.25596875000002,"end":180.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.75659375,"end":223.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.13096875000002,"end":225.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.31221875000003,"end":238.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.24846875,"end":228.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.51284375,"end":237.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.18784375,"end":240.22971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.32284375,"end":238.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.44909375,"end":245.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.44471875000002,"end":243.04784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.84909375,"end":252.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.88221875000002,"end":251.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.88596875000002,"end":257.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.17659375,"end":258.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.12971875,"end":261.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.61034375,"end":262.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.21784375000004,"end":306.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.44721875000005,"end":337.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.61534375,"end":343.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.60659375,"end":339.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.28971875,"end":362.72534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.01221875000005,"end":372.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.61034375,"end":371.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.73221875,"end":374.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.89221875000004,"end":380.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.73534375,"end":413.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.69221875000005,"end":413.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.58659375,"end":425.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.29346875000005,"end":451.89284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.55471875,"end":428.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.36534375,"end":458.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.62596875,"end":463.28346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.57034375,"end":473.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.93159375000005,"end":474.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.85534375000003,"end":494.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.69784375,"end":485.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.49784375,"end":499.96971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.288,"end":7.309,"text":"謝謝召委,我會請部長。請薛部長。"},{"start":15.017,"end":39.434,"text":"部長從長賜到部長期間其實過去這段時間我雖然有四年中間離開立法院但是其實跟您交手的機會跟您互動的機會其實非常多我們也希望上台下台其實我們高度跟身影其實都非常非常重要在這過程當中你經歷了COVID-19的疫情"},{"start":40.534,"end":66.2,"text":"其實也經歷了包括暴零案子等等暴零食堂的案子我覺得大家都經歷很多的挑戰但是經歷過挑戰之後我覺得大家都在看在很多制度面上我們有沒有調整得更好是重點部長那我也要跟您討論就是說有幾個案子其實上次我們有答詢過但是我覺得我還是要注意一下進度我們擔心說很多議題政策的推動會不會人去政席"},{"start":67.36,"end":85.966,"text":"包括第一個我們長期關注的包括衛福部公告的護理人員夜班的獎勵方案我想你非常清楚因為之前引起很大的風波因為醫學中心區醫院跟地區醫院那個實在是差太多每一班大夜班加1000塊地區醫院加800小地區"},{"start":89.807,"end":104.617,"text":"地區區議院加800,地區議院加600。」那後來有調整新的發言因此反彈之後因為物理人員流動會非常快心也非常的浮動那新發言已經出來了上個禮拜我在我財政委員會我特別問了主計長我說這個預算是1.13億"},{"start":108.499,"end":122.635,"text":"那上次我問衛福部的時候您回答我說這個還要再上簽但是後來我問主席長,主席長說錢都在那邊啊無論是義後的紓困預算或是你們自己的預算其實你自己動用就可以不需要再簽到他那邊了"},{"start":123.716,"end":147.184,"text":"這件事情因為我要代替所有因為地區醫院很多護理人員都在關注這件事情我也不希望我想你我都不希望護理人員有太大的流動對不對那所以這筆錢到底什麼時候會下來那跟我們報告目前我們本來是要希望就是說能夠用動用那個200億的那個公預算補助的"},{"start":147.944,"end":166.077,"text":"但是現在就是我們原先預估的27億27億的這個月班費第一階段那這部分的話算起來會有剩餘所以大概可以cover這1.3億所以什麼時候會應該最近那個健保署要簽上來給我了"},{"start":167.888,"end":177.131,"text":"這禮拜有機會嗎?一、兩個禮拜之內好不好?一個禮拜之內我們馬上簽出來謝謝部長第二個我關注的議題其實有關我今天其實有聽到其他委員在問這個議題就是有關於電價上漲對醫療院所的衝擊"},{"start":193.297,"end":214.825,"text":"特別對於小型的醫療診所偏鄉還有一般的醫療診所其實都有很大的衝擊那上次在跟在院會的時候答詢的時候你們有在研擬一些方案那現在行政程序上到底討論到哪個進度到底有沒有機會因為電價漲其實後續的成本整個都在漲還不只是"},{"start":215.785,"end":239.272,"text":"診所長而已所以不講因為這件事情在衛福部這邊是比較沒有著力的點因為我們沒有預算沒有補貼了這個電價的預算據我所知在行政院討論的時候他是打算用要補貼給台電的一千億裡面去處理因為包括一些"},{"start":240.832,"end":256.285,"text":"衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、內政部警政署、法務部、"},{"start":259.768,"end":275.42,"text":"我希望我們再努力一下好不好下個星期我希望可以有一些具體的答案出來因為這都是代表你照顧基層醫療院所以聽到他們的聲音過去他們配合我們在疫苗政策上在家庭醫療制度上我覺得他們都協助很多"},{"start":276.181,"end":300.121,"text":"偏鄉也是所以我覺得這個沒有什麼圖利的問題我們也希望在現階段一下子上漲造成後續的衝擊其實都非常大所以這一塊我也希望部長可以協助那最後一個就是部長最近強病毒的狀況其實非常嚴重那也是歷年來十年來的新高門診跟急診的就醫人次在3月份最後一週增加到20%將近21%"},{"start":302.643,"end":330.345,"text":"病例增加的幅度其實是非常高的我們都知道說腸病毒其實很重要是多洗手除了用肥皂洗手在醫學上次氯酸水也具有很好的殺菌的效果很多醫生都說表示說適合用手部滅菌包括這個次氯酸水滅病毒等等在國際間其實也有很多人使用這樣的見解其實我們有沒有機會多宣導多鼓勵那有沒有"},{"start":331.125,"end":350.198,"text":"有機會在這個政策上有沒有機會多討論因為用肥皂水洗是不是可以滅菌有沒有機會我們再調整一下多宣導肥皂水是本身沒有滅菌的功能但是清洗的用肥皂水清洗之後是可以把這個"},{"start":352.479,"end":373.324,"text":"病毒把他衝掉了所以一般如果因為要用次氯酸水的話他的普及性可能沒有那麼高現在最多的這個流行會是在學校尤其是小孩子、幼兒園等等這些這些的話"},{"start":375.06,"end":396.346,"text":"是不是都能夠在洗手的地方都能夠配置這個,而且... 沒關係,我覺得這個就是宣導,次氯酸水具有良好的殺毒毒殺的效果,其實有很多醫界醫生都表示適用於手部的滅菌啊滅病毒等等,因為不是每個地方其實都剛好有肥皂也可以洗手,所以"},{"start":397.566,"end":401.49,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生福利部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會"},{"start":413.863,"end":436.474,"text":"這是我的建議那最後一個要討論到今天的議題部長我上次跟您答詢就是說有關輔導教育的功能包括在性剝削上的您上次提到說有一些課程上的輔導其實我們都覺得效果其實不好要檢討輔導教育的功能那您上次回答我說你們會檢討那這個政策檢討因為看一看影片其實對於這些"},{"start":438.955,"end":450.721,"text":"加害者也好或者是這些犯罪的目的這些人其實我覺得效果並不好我們要怎麼調整是重點所以這一塊我們會不會有進度檢討的進度是什麼"},{"start":452.801,"end":473.493,"text":"這部分的話其實明天我們會開會就會討論這一塊目前的話可能是這樣子對於這些加害人可能要先做評估因為有一些其實真的是輔導教育這種強制治療大概都效果都不好但是有一些還是有他的效果"},{"start":476.065,"end":494.043,"text":"可以個別做心理的輔導。」這是我長期所關注的。我希望矯正的功能很重要,可以好好的落實。要看啦,要看它的實際上的差異性。對,我知道。所以部長我們還是要做,因為每一次藉由討論,我們的法令更完整、更周延,其實是最主要的目的。好,謝謝部長。好,謝謝李燕秀委員。接下來請洪孟楷委員"}]}},{"id":"151694","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151694","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb36b1f83e9b8ae771fb903698ddfaa754aeadb1108e4b84432eb3e375b409096655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:16:37 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12:27:09","影片長度":"00:10:32","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":632,"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:27:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T12:16:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1083,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時16分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請衛福部部長、法務部檢察司司長、司法院少家廳副廳長，法官要上來協助也沒有問題。"],["主席：請薛部長、郭司長、李副廳長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：三位好，時間的關係就不一一問候。兒少性剝削的人數節節攀升，當然這個是通報的狀況，從2017年的1,060人到2022年，我現在有的data已經到2,280人了，除了人數不斷攀升以外，讓人最觸目驚心的是裡面拍攝、製造兒童或少年性交或猥褻行為之物品這一種樣態的違法比例不斷攀升，如果我們以2022年來講，已經到了86%了，相當高的比例都是這個類型的犯罪。衛福部也說了，事實上我們看到人數不斷攀升、比例占那麼高，其實黑數還是很大，也牽涉到被害人在目前的法律下是不是有足夠的機制讓他願意出來，這真的是一件不容易的事情，因為可能會對他自己的社會生活、既有的家庭生活、人際關係都造成非常大負面衝擊的影響，這個我們大家都了解。","接下來就是我們目前對持有兒少性影像的處罰，沒有正當理由是一年以下有期徒刑，從比較法的觀點來看，我們應該是延續著日本法律，跟德國比、美國比相對而言都是輕。現在問題來了，目前這樣子的法定刑，從法務部的角度或是從行政機關的角度，認為有沒有調整的必要？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們認為是有再調整的必要，不過也跟委員報告，把這個變成刑事責任還是在去年修法時候才這樣的。"],["黃委員國昌：是、是、是。請教法務部，認為這樣的法定刑有沒有調整的必要？"],["郭司長永發：我們尊重權責機關，我們也贊同權責機關的……"],["黃委員國昌：就是認為有調整的必要嘛。"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，請教司法院，你們支不支持依照性影像數量的多寡、被害人的年齡、內容、加害的程度、加害者的資歷來訂定不同的量刑基準？"],["李副廳長昆霖：我們尊重由權責機關來……"],["黃委員國昌：權責機關就你們啊，量刑基準不是司法院嗎？"],["李副廳長昆霖：是，那我們……"],["黃委員國昌：什麼還尊重權責機關？我的老天啊！"],["李副廳長昆霖：對不起，我的意思是設定量刑的基準，我們目前有在討論那個量刑的準則。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候討論出來？問題很嚴重啊，速度要快啊！"],["李副廳長昆霖：好，因為這部分是刑事廳主責，我請朱法官來……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦，因為今天主席請少家廳來嘛，沒關係，把我的意見帶回去給刑事廳，這個事情絕對不能再拖了！"],["李副廳長昆霖：OK，謝謝委員，我們會帶回去，我們會加緊處理。"],["黃委員國昌：好。接下來第二個問題也是在網路上面造成非常多網友的困擾，就是虛擬人物圖畫的問題，這個牽涉到我們在2023年修法的時候，第二條的修法理由寫得「落落長」，我全部都拜讀完了，我看完了以後，它造成了一個很大的困擾，那個困擾就是虛擬的圖畫到底算不算規範的範圍當中？衛福部之前說要訂子法，現在還有要訂嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，現在我們大概會用解釋的方式來做處理。"],["黃委員國昌：解釋什麼時候做出來？"],["薛部長瑞元：正在簽辦當中。"],["黃委員國昌：你們的解釋內容是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：有幾個，第一個是實際真實人物的部分，當然就是……"],["黃委員國昌：這不用說。"],["薛部長瑞元：不用說。虛擬的部分，原則上是不管，但是有幾個，擬真的……"],["黃委員國昌：AI。"],["薛部長瑞元：AI擬真的，這個要放進來。"],["黃委員國昌：是，同意。"],["薛部長瑞元：第二個，如果涉及到比方說人獸交啦！虐待啦！暴力的，這個部分就回到刑法。"],["黃委員國昌：所以虛擬人物的創作不會在規範範圍當中嘛？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，原則上是不會，動漫畫的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：好，那我現在就要講得很清楚了，4月的時候，李麗芬次長好像有對外表示，動漫的部分會依照違反刑法第二百三十五條來加以處理，這個是衛福部的政策立場嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個是說它的內容，如果有暴力這一塊……"],["黃委員國昌：我的意思是說，就是回到刑法，不會用兒少性剝削防制條例來處理，這是衛福部的立場嘛？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員國昌：來，法務部。衛福部這樣子的立場，法務部同意嗎？"],["郭司長永發：我們尊重權責機關的職權……"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下，不要說尊重權責機關，因為犯罪事實移到法務部，檢察官用什麼條文起訴才是大家關心的事啊！衛福部剛剛表明他們的立場，所以我現在問法務部的立場，法務部要有立場啊！"],["郭司長永發：好，這個可能會構成散布猥褻物品罪。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們會不會用兒童性剝削防制條例處理？這個要講清楚啊！"],["郭司長永發：擬真AI的話，就依照衛福部……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有，擬真AI當然就不用講，動漫的部分會不會？講清楚啊！"],["郭司長永發：動漫的部分就回歸到刑法散布猥褻物品罪來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：所以不會用兒少性剝削防制條例？法務部立場要講清楚，讓所有的檢察官聽到。"],["郭司長永發：是，釋字617號來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：所以不會用兒童性剝削防制條例處理，對不對？是嗎？政策立場上嘛！"],["郭司長永發：對，是用刑法。"],["黃委員國昌：當然個案上面可不可以拘束檢察官，我老實講，我作為法律人是有一個超級大問號啦！行政機關都這樣講，但檢察官行使職權是獨立的啊！司長，我有沒有講錯？"],["郭司長永發：沒錯。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以這件事情法務部要想清楚啊！"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["黃委員國昌：你們在政策採取這樣的立場，你下一步馬上要去思考說那會拘束檢察官嗎？這個問題很重要啊！法務部回去好好研究，好不好？"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["黃委員國昌：要透過什麼樣子的手段，我們可以合法地讓全國的檢察官知道這個條文，使用上面要很慎重，我們要打擊該打擊的人，不要濫殺無辜，在法制作業上要怎麼做，法務部回去好好研擬清楚，好不好？"],["郭司長永發：謝謝委員提醒。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我為什麼會講這件事情？因為用針孔攝影機偷拍兒少洗澡，有沒有違反性剝削防制條例第三十六條的規定？衛福部說有嘛！法務部呢？"],["郭司長永發：是，有。"],["黃委員國昌：有嘛！但問題來了，目前實務上面我國法院的見解，有的說有罪，有的直接宣告沒有罪，為什麼會宣告沒有罪？跟2023年的修正又有關係啦！主席站起來，但是這一題很重要，我趕快把它講完，請司法院帶回去好好研究，這不是開玩笑的！","之前地方法院說在被害人不知情的情況下，用針孔攝影機偷拍兒少洗澡，這一定是違反兒少性剝削防制條例第三十六條的規定，也判有罪了，高等法院也維持這樣的見解了，但最高法院111年度台上字1847號刑事判決，援引2023年修法理由以後的見解，出來的見解是什麼？來，我唸給大家聽，「被告以針孔攝影機偷拍甲女洗澡之電子訊號是否符合修正後兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條第一項第三款及同條例第三十六條之性影像？」最高法院提出質疑耶！發回了以後，要高等法院好好注意耶！發回以後發生什麼事情？沒罪！為什麼？它在客觀上不是引起他人性慾之舉動或行為之猥褻行為。","法官獨立審判，我們一定尊重，但當我們的司法實務上面出現了「一人一把號，各吹各的調」，甚至有的結論我們從保護兒少的觀點，容我這樣講，難以接受啊！難以接受啊！這個實務上的動態，衛福部也好，法務部也好，司法院也好，要清楚地掌握，要不然立法者在這邊立了半天，結果法院判沒有罪放人，大家都不知道，這不是開玩笑的事情耶！這一個最高法院的見解，接下來要怎麼處理、要怎麼面對，衛福部、法務部、司法院，你們召開一個聯合的會議討論一下，好不好？因為我覺得這件事情很嚴重啊！部長，您贊不贊成？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個在我們的兒少性剝削諮詢委員會裡面，我們就找這些單位一起來處理。"],["黃委員國昌：法務部，同不同意？"],["郭司長永發：同意。"],["黃委員國昌：司法院，同不同意？"],["李副廳長昆霖：同意。"],["黃委員國昌：要怎麼處理這件事情，趕快有一個解決的方法，提一個書面報告給大家，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["黃委員國昌：1個月內可以嗎？"],["郭司長永發：可以。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員發言。","接下來請李彥秀委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 檢討 112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政\n署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具\n體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.61221875,"end":12.855968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.99971875,"end":11.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.94471875,"end":11.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.09221875,"end":15.927218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.36221875,"end":14.239718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.239718750000002,"end":14.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.20971875,"end":19.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.47971875,"end":19.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.37909375,"end":43.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.838468750000004,"end":57.220343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":57.220343750000005,"end":57.40596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.844718750000006,"end":62.384093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.603468750000005,"end":68.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.45909375000001,"end":69.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.74159375,"end":70.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.66971875,"end":71.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.96909375,"end":72.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.20534375,"end":72.23909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.61034375,"end":72.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.62721875,"end":82.11096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.46534375,"end":84.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.99659375,"end":89.75534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.16034375000001,"end":91.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.47221875000001,"end":93.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.99096875000001,"end":97.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.77096875000001,"end":102.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.44096875000001,"end":110.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.71409375,"end":114.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.01284375,"end":143.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":143.85659375,"end":154.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.82971875,"end":155.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":154.35284375,"end":154.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.09096875,"end":158.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.82471875000002,"end":158.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":158.87534375,"end":162.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.68909375,"end":167.16096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.95409375,"end":173.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.99534375000002,"end":177.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.33221875,"end":182.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.36534375000002,"end":183.63096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.95159375,"end":183.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.96846875,"end":185.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.01909375000002,"end":184.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.28034375000001,"end":186.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.95534375000003,"end":188.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.17034375,"end":190.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.18721875,"end":188.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.07284375,"end":191.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.89971875,"end":199.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.03784375,"end":200.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.26534375,"end":201.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.33284375000002,"end":201.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.97409375,"end":202.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.39596875,"end":202.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.44659375,"end":202.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.48034375,"end":202.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":202.69971875000002,"end":203.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.37034375000002,"end":207.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.81284375,"end":215.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.55034375000002,"end":213.95534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.45721875,"end":218.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.02659375000002,"end":217.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.91659375,"end":226.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.72971875000002,"end":234.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.96471875,"end":236.29784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":236.92221875,"end":239.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.55471875,"end":240.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.92159375000003,"end":242.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.94659375,"end":243.48659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":244.4484687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看完了以後他造成了一個很大的困擾那個困擾就是虛擬的圖畫到底算不算規範的範圍當中那衛福部之前說要訂執法現在還有要訂嗎"},{"start":252.612,"end":261.706,"text":"沒有,現在大概就是我們會用一個解釋的方式來做出解釋什麼時候做出來在千半鐘"},{"start":262.099,"end":282.356,"text":"正在前半當中。」你們在解釋內容是什麼?有幾個。第一個就是說實際真實人物的部分的話,當然就是...這不用說?不用說。虛擬的部分的話,原則上是不管,但是有幾個。那個女真的、AI女真的,要放進來。"},{"start":284.137,"end":312.816,"text":"二、如果涉及到人社交、虐待、暴力這部分就回到刑法所以虛擬人物的創作不會在規範範圍當中嗎?對,原則上是不會動漫化的但我現在就要講得很清楚了就是說4月的時候李立芬次長好像有對外面表示說動漫的部分"},{"start":314.362,"end":331.663,"text":"會依照違反刑法235條來加以處理。」這個是衛福部的政策立場嗎?呃這是說它的內容如果有這種我的意思是說啦就是回到刑法對不會用兒少、性剝削、防治條例來處理是這是衛福部的立場嘛對來法務部"},{"start":335.035,"end":358.147,"text":"衛福部這樣子的立場法務部同意嗎?先停一下不要尊重權責機關啊因為犯罪事實啊移到法務部啊檢察官用什麼條文起訴才是大家關心的事啊這個不是說衛福部剛表明他們的立場嗎所以我現在問法務部的立場法務部要有立場啊所以你們會不會用兒童性剝削防治條例處理?"},{"start":364.606,"end":388.567,"text":"這裡要講清楚啊!女真AI當然就不用講嘛動漫的部分會不會講清楚啊動漫的部分就回歸到刑法散佈猥褻物品所以不會用兒少性剝削防治條例法務部立場要講清楚讓所有的檢察官聽到4-617號來處理"},{"start":392.836,"end":409.216,"text":"所以不會用兒童性撥券防治條例處理對不對?是嗎?政策立場上嘛當然個案上面可不可以拘束檢察官我老實講啦我作為法律人士有個超級大問號啦行政機關都這樣講但檢察官行使職權是獨立啦"},{"start":412.287,"end":426.729,"text":"市長我有沒有講錯沒錯對嘛所以這件事情法務部要想清楚啊是你們在政策採取這樣的立場你下一步你馬上要去思考說那會拘束檢察官嗎這個問題很重要啊"},{"start":428.14,"end":451.613,"text":"法務部回去好好研究好不好要透過什麼樣子的手段我們可以合法的讓全國的檢察官知道這個條文使用上面要很慎重我們要打擊該打擊的人不要濫殺無辜法制作業上要怎麼做法務部回去好好研擬清楚好不好好我為什麼會講這件事情因為"},{"start":453.834,"end":482.001,"text":"用針孔攝影機偷拍兒少洗澡有沒有違反性剝削及防治條例第36條的規定?衛福部說有嘛法務部說呢?法務部呢?有嘛但問題來了目前實務上面我國法院的見解有的說有罪有的直接宣告沒有罪"},{"start":483.181,"end":509.375,"text":"為什麼會宣告沒有罪跟2023年的修正又有關係啦主席站起來但是這題很重要我趕快把它講完請司法院帶回去好好研究這不是開玩笑的啊之前地方法院說在被害人不知情的情況下用針孔攝影機偷拍兒少洗澡這一定是違反兒少性剝削防治條例36條的規定也判有罪了高等法院也維持這樣的見解了但"},{"start":510.612,"end":533.246,"text":"最高法院110年度台上制1847號刑事判決,援引2023年修法理由以後的見解。」出來的見解是什麼來我唸給大家聽喔。被告以偵恐攝影機偷拍假女洗澡的電子訊號有沒有符合俄上性剝削防治條例第二條第一項第三款及紅條例36條的性影像。"},{"start":536.229,"end":550.724,"text":"最高法院提出質疑發回了以後要高等法院好好注意發回以後發生什麼事情沒罪為什麼他在客觀上不是引起他人信譽的舉動或行為的猥褻行為"},{"start":552.389,"end":563.685,"text":"法官獨立審判我們一定尊重但當我們的司法實務上面出現了一人一把號各吹各的調甚至有的結論我們從保護兒少的觀點容我這樣講"},{"start":568.272,"end":594.582,"text":"難以接受啊難以接受啊這個實務上的動態喔衛福部也好法務部也好司法院也好要清楚的掌握要不然立法者在這邊立了半天結果法院判沒有罪放人大家都不知道這不是開玩笑的事情欸這個最高法院的見解接下來要怎麼處理要怎麼面對衛福部、法務部、司法院"},{"start":595.799,"end":622.017,"text":"你們召開一個聯合的會議討論一下好不好因為我覺得這件事情很嚴重啊部長您贊不贊成這在我們的耳塞星波區的諮詢委員會裡面我們就找這些單位一起討論法務部同不同意?同意司法院同不同意?同意要怎麼處理這件事情喔?趕快有一個解決的方法提一個書面報告來給大家好不好"},{"start":623.188,"end":631.539,"text":"一個月內可以嗎?可以,好,謝謝。好,謝謝黃國昌委員發言。接下來請李燕秀委員發言。"}]}},{"id":"151693","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151693","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3f302a41640e620226abc9c09ba589754eadb1108e4b844323957789e7d8fc2475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:24:42 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Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":262,"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:29:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T12:24:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":907,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（12時24分）請次長。"],["吳次長容輝：委員好！"],["陳委員冠廷：次長好！今天的質詢可能會比較簡短，因為我是針對0403受災戶住宅補貼實施上的實際問題，4月3日之後還是陸續有地震，尤其是昨天、4月22日還是有許多的餘震，許多住宅分別都被貼上紅單或黃單，民眾的居住安全直接受到威脅，特別是一般的學生，可能他不是住在此地，他可能只是在這邊就學。我先肯定國土署因應緊急居住需求推出0403的補貼方案，包含租金補助、自購住宅貸款利息補貼和修繕住宅貸款補貼，但是目前受災戶如果有租屋的需求，不管是自行或透過包租代管來媒合，政府都有提供租金補貼，3口補助8,000元，8口最高補助1萬8,000元。但是我看到東華大學的學生，他的租屋在震災中被列為黃單，所以他想要搬家，因為政府有提供8,000元的搬遷補貼，可是有些房東卻藉機漲價，在沒有安全租屋的選擇下，一年後這個震災補助沒有了，那這些學生是不是就沒有辦法負擔這些比較安全的住處？"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，其實租金補貼只要回歸一般的就可以了。"],["陳委員冠廷：只要回歸一般的就好了？"],["吳署長欣修：對，一般50萬戶那個，他們還是可以繼續申請。"],["陳委員冠廷：他們還是可以繼續申請？"],["吳署長欣修：對，這個沒有問題。"],["陳委員冠廷：那我就這樣子回復一些來自花蓮……雖然我們的選區不在那裡……"],["吳署長欣修：對，他們最主要是對校舍有疑慮。"],["陳委員冠廷：當地選區的委員因為要去中國，所以他們有些甚至陳情到我們這邊來，所以我們希望可以藉由質詢的機會，把這個訊息提供給大家。"],["吳署長欣修：可以，他們一樣可以繼續申請。"],["陳委員冠廷：另外一個，他們反映，東華大學所在的壽豐鄉民宿業者把民宿的房間當成宿舍來出租，一間房喊價7,000元到9,000元，有些甚至還不給申請租屋補助，有些人沒有選擇，只好繼續被迫居住在黃單的建築裡面，這個部分你們有沒有聽到相關的聲音？"],["吳署長欣修：的確，最近開始有一些新聞報導，房東可能藉機又在抬高，因為花蓮的租屋來源相對有限，所以房東又藉機。第二個，不能申請租金補貼這個我倒是還沒有聽到，因為他們都希望你領租金補貼，然後再把房價調高。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以這些受災的民眾遇到這樣的問題時，我想請教，有沒有什麼相關的因應方式？"],["吳署長欣修：其實現在租屋定型化契約地政司都有在做一些修正，當然最近可能還要再努力，我想有關租屋應該要回歸定型化契約這件事情還是要努力。第二個，租金補貼這個部分，針對災區的話，我們會來觀察最近的狀況，當然如果有必要，因為它是全面性的問題，我們還是會繼續尋找其他的替代資源，像旅館的部分，最近已經陸陸續續成型，旅館也可以納進來，這部分我們跟觀光署合作，最近應該會把方案提供出來，這樣受災戶就會有更多的選擇。"],["陳委員冠廷：我今天特別的針對學生的部分是因為，第一點，他們不是當地的住戶，所以他們的人脈關係或者是能夠依靠的親友的線可能比較少一點，所以他們首當其衝。當然還有各個不同的，像當地的住戶或是直接受到影響的，甚至貼的不是黃單，而是紅單的，那就是直接、最危險的建築物，他們就沒有緩衝的空間，特別是現在餘震又不斷，所以我們真的很希望國土署可不可以加強督促花蓮縣政府對業者……如果沒有辦法強制，至少宣導的部分要讓他們知道，政府對於旅館民宿業者有提高租用獎勵金，請他們不要再把費用加諸在租客上，這點我還是希望政府能夠帶領，至少宣導的部分要加強。"],["吳署長欣修：這我們會再努力。"],["陳委員冠廷：好，謝謝。"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳冠廷委員的發言，謝謝。","下一位請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。","洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷委員不在。","何欣純委員、何欣純委員、何欣純委員不在。"],["主席（黃委員捷代）：請吳琪銘召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-14","speakers":["吳琪銘","莊瑞雄","羅美玲","陳玉珍","黃捷","陳培瑜","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","吳沛憶","王美惠","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","李柏毅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","黃國昌","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳菁徽","陳冠廷","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案；二、審查內政\n部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)\n行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六\n條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國\n籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員\n林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員莊\n瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案、 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Lai needs to rethink nuclear shutdown plan，它說賴清德總統應該重新檢討反核政策，這是日本的研究。美國的研究也說了，因為半導體的發展，臺灣是亞洲人均耗電最高的地區，但臺灣的電力供應並沒有跟上腳步。","民進黨極力推動非核家園，導致我們的核電從2011年的42百萬瓦，降到2022年的24百萬瓦，這些您贊成嗎？本席問你，你贊成非核家園嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：核安會是獨立的安全管制機關，所以不適合對擁核或反核表態。"],["張委員嘉郡：昨天和碩董事長童子賢，他同時也是民進黨新境界文教基金會的副董事長，董事長就是賴清德，他近日發表演講的時候提到缺電，他說他反核30年，但是現在思想改變了，因為他覺得全球暖化才是公敵，核能不是，所以他改變30年來的反核立場。一個反核30年的人，現在想法改變了，國際上的潮流也興起重啟核能，最重要的是，核能安全可以透過管理降低風險，現今發生電廠核災的，幾乎都是管理問題導致。","主委，核安會，就像你剛才說的，是一個獨立機構，理應有專業的判斷、專業的良心，不能受到太多政治的影響，如果讓政治凌駕於專業，對我們國家的發展絕對不利，請用專業的良心在院會上建議民進黨，請執政黨修正錯誤的能源政策，不應再以非核黨綱綁架臺灣的能源政策。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張嘉郡委員。主委辛苦了，請回。","今天登記質詢的委員均已發言完畢，另外有吳春城委員提出書面質詢。","關於今天的會議作如下決議：報告及詢答完畢，委員所提書面質詢及相關資料，列入紀錄並刊登公報。委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答復部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葉元之","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","范雲","張嘉郡","吳春城"],"page_start":251,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會\n列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查 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就是不能有人禍的意思人禍你有把握你能夠管理得當嗎是的 我們會在制度面上去完成那你認同核能是低碳能源是綠電嗎它是低碳能源 那綠電有不同的定義"},{"start":74.851,"end":90.372,"text":"同時核能的一大功能是發電就你的專業知識你認為核能的發電成本比之於目前國內主要的燃氣發電成本是高還是低?"},{"start":91.421,"end":109.767,"text":"是低但是它有不同的效應核廢料的問題社會成本的問題所以您知道現在每一度核能電發電的成本是多少嗎大概是一塊多吧1.1那燃氣每一度電是多少你知道嗎"},{"start":113.934,"end":137.279,"text":"5塊多是再生能源 燃氣大概是3.19所以呢其實核能每一度電是燃氣發電的三分之一的價格然後是再生能源的五分之一的價格然而現在台灣的能源政策卻已經是政治凌駕於專業指引我們能源政策的"},{"start":137.839,"end":167.154,"text":"竟然是民進黨的非核檔綱而不是專業判斷基於此請問核安會主委您贊不贊同台灣應該重新檢討核能發電的政策呢?那個 呃 能源的政策主管機關是經濟部我當然知道我早上已經問過經濟部長我現在是問你啊你建不建議說我們應該重新檢討核能發電的政策呢?"},{"start":168.059,"end":179.808,"text":"這個沒有簡單的答案所以我現在讓你回答呀對 這個不是yes or no那你願不願意本與你的專業建議執政的應該重新檢討飛橫政策呢這個應該不是我的權責啦我沒辦法建議那對於今年7月即將退役的核三廠主委你認為是否有可能研議"},{"start":193.32,"end":207.869,"text":"現在是7月27日執照屆滿按照目前大概就是到那個時候會停機所以就是他會如其演繹的意思你們目前沒有任何的規劃時間到會停止運轉"},{"start":213.257,"end":223.88,"text":"所以對於我們現在的核電廠設備不管是核三廠或者是核四廠、核二廠你有沒有信心就是他們其實運作起來都是安全的"},{"start":224.884,"end":251.093,"text":"每一個廠有不同的情況那個核三廠是現在在運轉所以它是運轉是安全的它的目前的運轉是安全的你覺得它有能力可以研議嗎對 但是它也牽扯到法規的問題所以你是認同它是有研議的能力它還有法規的問題是 就是除了法規之外我請教您的專業就您的專業核三廠研議是不是有能力"},{"start":252.363,"end":252.583,"text":"短短短短短短"},{"start":267.363,"end":294.928,"text":"不研議也不重啟核電繼續使用昂貴的天然氣發電還有再生能源的話可以預估臺灣產業發展將會受到極大的限制而且人民的電費也會節節高升那最近喔日本五大報紙之一的日本經濟新聞喔他就說他就說這個Taiwan's line needs to rethink nuclear shutdown plan"},{"start":295.188,"end":296.309,"text":"賴清德總統應該重新檢討反核政策"},{"start":325.428,"end":327.37,"text":"這一些您是贊成的嗎?我問你啊,你贊成嗎?你贊成非核家園嗎?核安會是獨立的安全的管制機關所以不適合用核或反核來做表態當然呢,最近昨天核碩的董事長童子賢"},{"start":351.988,"end":373.134,"text":"他同時也是民進黨新境界文教基金會的副董事長那董事長就是賴清德他近日發表演講的時候提到缺點他說他反核30年但是思想改變了他覺得全球暖化才是公敵何能不是所以他也改變了30年來的反核立場"},{"start":374.915,"end":387.784,"text":"一個反核30年的人想法都會改變那國際上的潮流也興起重啟核能那最重要的是核能安全是可以透過管理來降低風險的現今上發生過這個電廠核災的幾乎都是管理問題導致諸位核安會就像你剛剛講的是一個獨立機構理應有專業的判斷"},{"start":400.273,"end":400.293,"text":"疑惑"},{"start":430.147,"end":432.993,"text":"謝謝張家俊委員主委辛苦主委請回"}]}},{"id":"151691","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151691","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3af6fbb81a7cf60c86abc9c09ba589754eadb1108e4b8443238ee3d2e11fcb60b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:17:57 - 12:24:29","影片長度":"00:06:32","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":392,"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:24:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T12:17:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":871,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時17分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：是次長，請次長。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，次長，謝謝！"],["吳次長容輝：委員好！"],["陳委員培瑜：次長，午安！因為投影片還在播放中，沒關係，我想說一下，有關今天內政部的這個法案評估，我們覺得非常失望，因為我們辦公室有提出一個相關的討論，其實這個討論也是國際的趨勢，就是有關運動員入籍的部分，不知道這個部分，就是我們辦公室提出的條文，請問次長你有研究過嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：報告委員，我有看過。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們要談的是運動員歸化，其實正確的說法應該是有分入籍和歸化，這兩種途徑都有，我投影片的左邊是血緣入籍的部分，右邊是屬於條件歸化的部分，條件歸化又分居留時間、配偶或高專，甚至是非常特殊的殊勳，我想這些次長應該都非常清楚，所以我們就不再針對這些個案來贅述，因為我後續想要跟你討論可能的執行方法。","我們來看一下血緣關係的入籍，就以國外的案例，2022年北京奧運，中國找回美籍中裔的谷愛凌，後來他拿到滑雪金牌；2023年的女足世界盃，菲律賓有策略的聯絡許多美籍菲裔的選手加入，打敗臺灣取得晉級世界盃的門票；到了今年足球亞洲盃，印尼跟馬來西亞透過海外的二代子弟成功的打入世界殿堂。這種積極尋找血緣關係選手的作法，其實是目前國際體壇的趨勢。可是我們來看一下，在足球界最高殿堂的俱樂部世界盃，畫面中這個球員叫做Jordan，他的祖母是臺灣人，他目前正在紐西蘭Auckland FC效力，在去年俱樂部世界盃裡，不只FIFA有幫他做個人專輯，他自己也成為第一個踏上俱樂部世界盃的臺裔血統球員，可是因為他的父親是1980年以前出生，如果按照現行的國籍法，他沒有辦法取得臺灣的國籍。","我們來看一下目前的限制，在國際足總的規定裡，就是我剛才說的世界趨勢，如果選手的祖父母、父母出生在該會員國，同時選手也有該國的國籍，那他就有資格成為這個國家代表隊的球員，還不受居留時間的要求限制。不只是足球，我只是拿足球為例，目前大部分的國際運動組織都有類似的規範，所以回到我們剛才說的這個案例，目前臺灣的國籍法非常可惜，我們主動的拒絕這些臺裔第三代優秀的選手加入臺灣國家隊來為臺灣效力的可能性，我知道你們目前有高專、殊勳等相關辦法，這些我們當然都很清楚，可是我們想要問，對於我剛剛說的有血緣的第三代優秀選手的這個部分，因為我們有提出草案，剛才次長你也說你非常清楚，所以我們想要問，到底目前的困境是什麼？是因為你們沒有積極的去跟體育署溝通？還是你們自己就先判定這件事情不需要納入討論？我想先確定一下，你們有去跟體育署溝通，有關體育選手的這個部分嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：我想這部分我們都有在跟他們溝通，包括這次在修……"],["陳委員培瑜：你們有跟體育署溝通，所以體育署的態度是？"],["吳次長容輝：這部分我是不是請司長來跟你說明？"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。"],["陳代理司長子和：跟委員報告，體育署對這個案子的建議是，他們有高專人才的規劃，希望能夠縮短他們的年限。"],["陳委員培瑜：就是年限的問題。"],["陳代理司長子和：對，年限這次我們已經有改了。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們的提案是說，這些優秀的選手有年限的問題，其實我們只要修改相關的辦法，他就可以立刻為臺灣隊效力，520即將要上任的賴總統，他也說要發展國家體育政策和國家體育部，可是我們卻沒有更多的優秀人才，如果他們有意願回來為臺灣國家隊效力，目前你們說要縮短高專的年限，那你們又要研議多久？所以我們當時的提案是，透過納入民國69年以前出生之具有中華民國國籍女性子女，在不影響既有國籍法第二條第二項精神前提下，以體育例外的概念。我們當然知道不能廣開國籍大門，因為這會造成很多的爭議和討論，可是透過特定體育團隊主動為球員發聲為但書，同時我們還保留撤銷的可能性，我們把相關很多地方都考慮進去了。"],["陳代理司長子和：委員，其實還滿清楚的，國籍法89年修正的時候，以前我們的國籍法是父系主義……"],["陳委員培瑜：是，沒錯。"],["陳代理司長子和：後來89年改為父母雙系主義，當時有另外再訂一個但書，如果這個小孩子的母親是臺籍，那這個小孩在未滿20歲前，他是具有國籍的。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個我都知道，所以我才會說我這個版本是包含祖母的部分嘛！"],["陳代理司長子和：因為如果再往前溯及第三代的話，那牽連的……"],["陳委員培瑜：我們沒有要廣開大門，我剛才已經說了，我沒有要廣開大門，我們是讓特定的體育團體針對特定的體育比賽，例如說亞、奧運臺灣重視的奪牌項目比賽，我都講得這麼務實了，其實我們已經一再的限縮這個條件，因為我們也有考慮到行政機關，確實我們也要考慮臺灣國籍法的特殊性，所以我們已經把對象受限、團體受限，甚至我們還保留撤銷條款，也就是說他入籍之後，他必須要受國家隊徵召，5年內他必須要完全為國家隊服務，這件事情我們也都有寫在條文裡頭，所以我們還是要再次的請你們謹慎的考慮這件事情，我們辦公室也會持續的追蹤。我還是想要請問你，因為我們已經一再的限縮這個條件，你們的態度是？"],["陳代理司長子和：跟委員報告，其實高專的規劃有一致的公平性，其他高專人才都沒有這個問題……"],["陳委員培瑜：所以真的沒有機會在這次國籍法的修正裡納入討論嗎？其實這件事不是只有我講，莊瑞雄委員和羅美玲委員也都有提出相關的版本和討論，我相信招攬更多具有臺灣血統的第三代優秀選手加入國家隊應該是國人的共識，然後我們現在又要發展體育文化相關的部門，這個部分還是請你們內政部持續的討論。"],["陳代理司長子和：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們也希望你們能邀集體育署，因為體育署的角度可能比較保守，可是我還是要說，明明有很多優秀的第三代選手可以因為這個法條進來為臺灣隊服務，好嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員，這個我們會再跟體育署討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是我們還是希望可以積極的追蹤，我們辦公室會再跟你們討論，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員的質詢。","下一位林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員、林楚茵委員不在。","請陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-14","speakers":["吳琪銘","莊瑞雄","羅美玲","陳玉珍","黃捷","陳培瑜","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","吳沛憶","王美惠","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","李柏毅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","黃國昌","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳菁徽","陳冠廷","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案；二、審查內政\n部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)\n行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六\n條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國\n籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員\n林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員莊\n瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案、 (十五)委員林岱樺等\n17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四\n條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.28409375000000003,"end":1.8534687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.38096875,"end":2.1234687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.1234687500000002,"end":2.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.34284375,"end":3.5915937500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.64221875,"end":22.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.49971875,"end":27.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.26721875,"end":183.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.00659375,"end":48.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.040343750000005,"end":48.057218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.22159375,"end":184.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.16659375,"end":189.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.55409375000002,"end":193.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.18659375000001,"end":195.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.54471875000002,"end":197.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.56971875000002,"end":198.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.45534375000003,"end":208.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.36971875,"end":255.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.09096875,"end":212.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.15534375000004,"end":257.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.72909375,"end":269.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.84721875,"end":260.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.50409375000004,"end":266.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.96346875,"end":274.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.05971875,"end":276.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.32096875,"end":281.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.27846875,"end":334.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.63596875,"end":288.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.67909375000005,"end":342.37409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.70846875,"end":336.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.11284375,"end":363.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.04159375,"end":375.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.95534375,"end":376.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.00596875,"end":379.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.74846875000003,"end":377.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.93784375,"end":385.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.46471875000003,"end":383.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.49846875000003,"end":392.96534375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.409,"end":21.698,"text":"市長好市長謝謝委員好好市長無安喔呃我想要說一下我們啊投影片還在哎沒關係我想說一下關於今天內政部這個法案的評估我們覺得非常失望因為我們辦公室提出了一個相關的討論那其實這個討論其實也是國際趨勢那就是關於這個運動員入籍的部分那不知道這個部分我們辦公室的條文請問市長您有研究過嗎"},{"start":27.602,"end":47.592,"text":"我們要談的是運動員規劃其實應該正確說法是有分成所謂的入籍跟規劃兩種這兩種途徑都有那我在投影片上的左邊是選入籍的部分右邊是屬於條件規劃的部分那有分成居留的時間或是因為配偶的關係或是高專甚至是非常特殊的叫做書勳我想次長應該都非常清楚"},{"start":48.092,"end":50.433,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":64.418,"end":83.985,"text":"2023年女足世界盃菲律賓有策略聯絡許多美籍非裔選手加入打敗台灣取得世界盃晉級門票到今年足球亞洲盃印尼跟馬來西亞透過海外二代子弟成功打入世界殿堂這種積極尋找血緣關係選手的做法其實真的是目前國際體談的趨勢可是這邊我們來看一下"},{"start":88.487,"end":109.903,"text":"在足球界最高殿堂世界盃,在俱樂部的部分有一個所謂的俱樂部世界盃。那這個部分畫面中這個球員叫做Jordan,他的祖母是台灣人,他目前正在紐西蘭的奧克蘭FC效力。在去年的俱樂部世界當中,不只有FIFA幫他做了個人專輯,他自己也成為了第一個踏上俱樂部世界盃的台藝血統球員。"},{"start":112.465,"end":115.146,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":131.55,"end":142.235,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管"},{"start":160.643,"end":168.724,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":189.608,"end":198.614,"text":"我想這一部分我們都有跟他再溝通了。提議署在這個案子裡面他是建議說有一些高專人才的規劃就希望能夠縮短他的年限。就是年限的問題嗎?可是我剛剛提案是說他沒有年限的問題這些優秀選手其實只要修改相關辦法他就可以立刻為台灣隊效力嗎?"},{"start":218.587,"end":232.878,"text":"即將521上任賴總統也說要發展國家體育政策國家體育部的這件事情可是我們卻沒有更多優秀人才他們也有意願回來為國家臺灣國家對效力但是在目前你們高專說縮短那你們又要研議多久所以我們當時的提案是說"},{"start":234.179,"end":249.465,"text":"可不可以在民國69年以前出生具有中華民國國籍的女性子女在不影響到既有的國籍法第二條第二項的精神前提底下用體育例外的概念我們當然知道不能廣開國籍大門會造成很多的爭議跟討論可是透過特定體育團體主動為球員發聲為淡書然後我們同時還保留撤銷的可能性"},{"start":257.125,"end":260.267,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":275.094,"end":280.857,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":299.708,"end":302.811,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。五、審查內政部主管預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我知道你們做了研議了可是有答應蘭嶼人這件事情沒有錯吧答應是什麼時候之前要簽署"},{"start":105.802,"end":107.603,"text":"有人跟我澄清"},{"start":128.139,"end":138.148,"text":"你們曾經放過這三個量子力學三巨頭在你們的臉書上應該知道吧?主委認得嗎?"},{"start":138.148,"end":148.016,"text":"右邊那個薛丁格很有名嘛那個薛丁格的故事大家都知道那主委知道左邊那三位女性是誰嗎?"},{"start":150.964,"end":167.123,"text":"是居里夫人這三位的中間中間是居里夫人嗎你把中間居里夫人會跟他們三個站在一起這有沒有弄錯好來我請那個我們中規組組長就您不知道嘛"},{"start":169.29,"end":180.98,"text":"跟委員報告那是那三個科學家的太太跟媽媽所以不是居里夫人如果是居里夫人那我就要高興了我要講的事情是誇張的是你們的臉書小編放過這張圖當時完全沒有解釋左邊三位是誰連是人家的夫人什麼家屬都沒有講"},{"start":191.269,"end":220.569,"text":"可是你們居然在跟你們的原能會的性評小組的報告裡面把這張圖跟小編臉書說成說這張圖是在傳達性別對科學發展之影響力無論是科學家本人或是科學家背後之女性支持者均同等重要意思就是說科學家三個是男的然後他們的老婆是女的這個圖叫做傳達性別對科學發展之影響力"},{"start":222.563,"end":243.968,"text":"所以你們的科學家沒有女的都是男的所以女性的影響力就是當他們的老婆跟背後的女性支持者是這樣嗎?這是你們的性別平等的報告欸不是 這跟委員報告一下如果委員從網路上看這張照片的話大部分的照片都把三位女性全部cut掉"},{"start":244.588,"end":264.135,"text":"所以你們放進去已經對女性很好了主委還以為上面是居里夫人呢因為我們要注重性品所以這些後面相關的人物你要放喔筆切掉這當然是有加分啦可是把這張的而且你們你們的小編完全沒有說這旁邊三個是誰放了卻不說人家是誰"},{"start":265.475,"end":294.341,"text":"但是更誇張的是當你們性別小組我們行政院主流化各部會都有性別小組就是說你們給人家的報告是要講科學家跟性別的時候拿這張圖告訴大家性別平等就是科學家本人還沒講男性科學家背後是女性支持者就是說是用這個來講性別跟科技你們都找不到任何一個女性科學家來告訴大家性別跟科學發展"},{"start":295.899,"end":322.099,"text":"這個部分我們會來再這是你們的會議記錄我剛唸的東西都是你們會議記錄你們性別小組的會議記錄就是有委員王平詢問這件事然後你們的人家已經問了你還可以答成這樣然後還在這個報告裡就這樣所以呢為什麼要關心你們你看時間沒有了都沒有時間問了因為原能會之前出過很有名的性騷案新主委知道嗎"},{"start":325.808,"end":345.763,"text":"內部細節不是很清楚你可以再去了解一下我們在這邊林盈瑾委員都有看到我跟林盈瑾委員還要求行政院要報告因為你們的性騷擾的相關規定沒有處理主委本人如果是性別歧視或者是性騷擾的行為人的話怎麼處理所以你們整個園農會性別意識可能真的有待加強"},{"start":349.606,"end":371.148,"text":"現在呢我之前預算都有請你們加強性騷擾防治我現在發現你們不是只有性騷擾防治性別平等意識從你們的性平小組你們給出的報告人家已經專業委員問了還不知道哪裡的問題喔真的非常的值得加強針對如何加強你們內部的性別平等意識可不可以一個月給我一個檢討報告好的"},{"start":372.609,"end":374.11,"text":"一級主管的女性遠低於女性成員比核安會女性主管21%國園會女性主管20%員工33%女性1%"},{"start":398.64,"end":426.978,"text":"更誇張的事情你們的一級主管人家別的被行政院性評處管考的都是生喔你們的一級主管人數一年降下來就是75%降到38%降到21%你們的母數是19個主管可以越降越少耶為什麼呢好不容易做到女性一級主管的他們為什麼的百分比是越降越低低於他現在的"},{"start":427.952,"end":455.668,"text":"母數的比例啊主委你有沒有發現這件事情有有有有那個我跟委員報告那個我們最近其實還有一個副組長就是副處長的層級那麼其實他就是女性那麼我不曉得有沒有算在這裡面那麼其實我們在升等的時候其實有很嚴謹的這個制度啦因為我們最近剛搬過升等"},{"start":456.408,"end":475.898,"text":"那麼我們會將來會來註意來註意喔那您知不知道行政院性別平等處在管考政府所有的委員會那有75%的委員會都達標了而且那個是高標40%喔那我們的核安會沒有達標你知道嗎"},{"start":477.619,"end":482.766,"text":"清楚我知道這個是大概我們會繼續來努力會繼續來努力至少就一級主管那如果你有聽過西點原則你有沒有聽過"},{"start":492.418,"end":517.355,"text":"沒有齁那跟您報告一下西點原則是CEDAW相關的部分就是說如果你達不到百分之三十、四十的時候至少要消極的不可低於原始的母數的性別比就是你原始的母數比如說只有百分之十的女性那你禮監事就不要低於百分之十好不好那你現在的母數有百分之三十幾那你的主管人數我們先不要講那個"},{"start":518.275,"end":523.762,"text":"行政院管考的40%性別評審處的各委員會你至少不要地域的母數比好不好那請問主委您是不是會續任呢?"},{"start":528.345,"end":529.085,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算 ​​​解凍案"},{"start":552.474,"end":566.601,"text":"當然我是祝福您續任好不好那這個可不可以給我辦公室一個報告因為呢我去年在修應該是去年嗎核安會的組織法的時候你們的前劉副主委他還在嗎"},{"start":568.443,"end":588.744,"text":"他退休了我當時說組織法要放三分之一性別比的時候他告訴我說行政院的目標對他們的要求是40%所以我們以40%為目標所以不需要定在那裡叫我支持所以呢顯然就是說你們是應付委員嘛講一講之後都沒有任何的做法是不是"},{"start":589.891,"end":613.377,"text":"我不清楚劉副主委怎麼說的那為了避免你們應付委員給我一個報告讓我可以繼續追蹤好嗎那這多久內可以給我一個報告這個如何逐步提升女性主管的比例因為我們如果要有女主委也要有歷練的過程嘛對不對好我們一個月好謝謝那個主委"}]}},{"id":"151689","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151689","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3adf8331e4588e7d27e796690f3f0abb2eadb1108e4b84432caaa58e7967e20ae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"12:09:49 - 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啊奇怪呢啊為什麼可以一要再、再要三、三要四一直來釋憲呢?為什麼可以?啊如果他這樣做出來能不能我受害者我的家屬、受害者家屬被殺掉的、無辜殺掉的那些家屬可以不可以我也提出一個釋憲可以嗎?我請加盟你"},{"start":149.323,"end":176.523,"text":"申請權當然就依照憲法訴訟法誰有權他就可以提出申請但你受不受理當然是憲法法院來做決定這個我現在就明白主張了在這個國會殿堂我就明白主張了如果大法官兩三個月之後大法官會議這一次憲法法庭之後做成說"},{"start":178.339,"end":180.541,"text":"實行是違憲的話．絕對引起一大波的一個民怨我們來發動公投啊公投我請教部長你是這份專家公投的效力大還是司法官還是大法官解釋的效力大你要告訴我哪個大 誰大"},{"start":204.721,"end":207.223,"text":"結果出來就大法官說是違憲然後人民發動公投把他推翻掉"},{"start":228.226,"end":246.852,"text":"那我們就看他不同的規定嘛公投有公投法那事先有憲法訴訟法那看各相關的 居然大法官會講說民意不重要阿台灣現在是什麼國際上跟人家講就是我們的民主我們的自由"},{"start":249.143,"end":275.601,"text":"民主叫什麼?民主就是以人民為主叫人民主啊人民最大結果每一次命令就是八成每一次命令八成老實講 蔡部長你們這個時候一分天命啊講這個這麼大聲的話說你們反對廢食啊結果你們死出庸職而已你們如果不要有那個行政命令哪裡有什麼債神非常上訴跟憲法法庭"},{"start":276.892,"end":296.005,"text":"那不是行政命令行事訴訟法就有規定在審非常上述他有這樣的權利啊憲法法庭實行的不只是你們的行政命令你剛剛講是行事訴訟是另外一件事行政命令是根據法律來訂定的嘛法律行事訴訟法就有規定他有在審的權利他有非常上述的權利嘛"},{"start":297.099,"end":313.315,"text":"沒有規定死刑犯有這個權利啦沒有規定死刑犯有這個權利是你們自己家的法律有規定我們只是跟照法律來訂定沒有我上一次我在這裡問你的問題是你跟我回答今天不一樣喔但是事先這個部分就是說沒有規定"},{"start":314.376,"end":333.374,"text":"行政法院沒有規定這個喔沒有規定這個死刑犯不執行是你們有一個死刑犯的執行條件你們說一定要經過再審非常上述憲法法庭是你們的行政命令把它加上去的所以你們現在就感覺好像我的感覺是你們跟大法官在唱雙簧捏"},{"start":334.889,"end":335.169,"text":"很清楚的"},{"start":359.483,"end":375.264,"text":"外界的解讀是什麼?這幾個大法官要感念啊!他可能都快學了要感念蔡英文提名當大法官所以在他們退以前要獻給蔡英文一個卸任的禮物啊!"},{"start":376.5,"end":390.291,"text":"蔡英文、念茲再次包括你們司法院長、許中立這兩位都是主張廢死一路在推動廢死然後法務部長也不敢去講話因為他是老闆所以只能這樣子所以今天來講看到說法務部這樣盡力去fight其實這都假的老闆最重要"},{"start":399.707,"end":408.593,"text":"沒有 我們是鑑定我們的立場嘛跟我們的職責嘛不是啦 那個 那個 部長啊你 你 你確定不會留任嗎不會啊啊 所以要走之前 要講真話啊那所以我講的都是真話啊講真話就是說 你今天不幾步不幾步這就是 這種假的啊 就玩一趟過程給大家看 最後我請問你 我就一句話 問完我就下來了齁"},{"start":428.638,"end":451.577,"text":"如果大法官解釋說違憲,你能不能接受?個人能不能接受?我們就看他解釋文如何,然後也會參考不同意見書。不是你要聽沒有啦,你就說能接受不能接受兩句而已啊,要選你啊,能不能接受?結果我大帽子就是合乎憲法。"},{"start":457.389,"end":462.363,"text":"大帽子不合乎憲法就是違憲不違憲法務部的立場就是認為合憲"},{"start":465.389,"end":466.05,"text":"接下來有請"}]}},{"id":"151688","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151688","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3be2db86d5ddebae2b903698ddfaa754aeadb1108e4b8443211db7a385e1e81f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"12:09:04 - 12:16:34","影片長度":"00:07:30","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":450,"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:16:34+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T12:09:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1035,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（12時9分）謝謝主席黃召委，請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["何委員欣純：部長好，本席也有提出兒少性剝削防制條例，我提的版本裡面有一點就是剛剛黃委員所提到的，所謂的強制治療要不要入法，雖然你說強制治療不見得有效果，但是我的條款裡面是如果他是經判刑有罪或緩起訴處分者經評估，這還是要經過專業的評估，因為就像你講的，這個可能有程度的不同，對不對？程度不同當然就經過專業評估，如果他是真的需要身心治療，那我們為何不把強制治療的條款入法呢？本席的版本是有這個條款的，部長，經評估之後，這個你可以接受嗎？你支持嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：經評估當然是有可能，是可以接受，但是所謂的強制治療這個定義就必須要把它明確化。"],["何委員欣純：沒關係，我是認為該有這樣子的機制，我也尊重專業，我希望把它入法，至於文字可以怎麼斟酌，我覺得這可以在委員會討論，但是這個方向我請部長要支持，這是第一個。第二個，在我的版本裡面，現行的條文是持有就會有相關的刑責，我現在又加了一個，如果是用金錢或對價關係取得而持有的更要加重，這個方向部長支持嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這我支持，因為這涉及到金錢的所謂經濟行為，主要會引導這種犯罪行為的增加。"],["何委員欣純：是，我們常常看到有很多個案，有一些青少女或青少年或兒童就是因為這樣子被誘導、被利誘，他在身心心理狀況可能還不是很成熟的情況之下比較不會分辨，有可能就受害了，所以這個部分我希望部長要支持。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["何委員欣純：第二件事我想跟部長談一個制度，在上一次剴剴案的時候事實上我有觀察，部長你知不知道現在全臺灣中途家庭或者是寄養家庭的數目正在減少當中？你知道嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：減少，對，我知道。"],["何委員欣純：這是因為什麼？你認為呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然就是願意從事這一個工作的人也會降低，另外當然就是風險也高，他會選擇case。"],["何委員欣純：是啊，所以我們如果把風險降低，是不是能夠更系統化、更制度化、更專業化的來支持他們，或是給予相關的輔導。第二個，我們要如何再重建中途家庭跟寄養家庭，希望數字可以逐漸增加，因為這牽涉到什麼？這牽涉到我們如何安置這些需要受保護的孩子。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分其實是要好好去做思考……"],["何委員欣純：目前為止我沒有看到衛生福利部對這個有什麼樣的思考。"],["薛部長瑞元：寄養家庭之所以減少當然有很多的原因。"],["何委員欣純：是有很多原因。"],["薛部長瑞元：其中有一個就是年齡層的問題，現在寄養家庭比較不願意去收那種很小的小孩。"],["何委員欣純：可能是比較……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，因為他風險高，寄養家庭其實是年齡這些原因……"],["何委員欣純：那我們是不是要思考有沒有解決的對策？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。所以對於那種很小的小孩子目前送到保母的系統也不是……"],["何委員欣純：這個又是另外一個問題，我就是想再跟部長討論，所以現在有很多年紀比較小、年齡層比較小的是送到保母端，這一次剴剴案就是保母出了問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["何委員欣純：那我想請教是，如果我們送給這些保母請他們來安置這些兒童，不管是短暫或是長時間的，除了金錢上的給付之外，我們有沒有對保母的專業要求？"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦，這個還是需要。"],["何委員欣純：要不要受訓？要不要認證？"],["薛部長瑞元：本來保母就有認證。"],["何委員欣純：保母的認證是一般保母的認證，我是說針對這些需要被保護的孩子、被安置的孩子。"],["薛部長瑞元：我記得之前在質詢的時候曾經回答過，就是全日托，這種保母一般來講照顧都是日托的，晚上就回到自己的家裡面去，父母親是可以看得到的，所以虐待的情形就會比較少；全日托的話，這種家庭基本上功能已經失去了，家裡的人也不會看得到，所以等於整天候都在保母的家裡面，這樣子他的風險就會特別高，因此這種全日托的保母必須要有更好的一些訓練、更好的監督。"],["何委員欣純：現在衛生福利部有沒有這樣子的機制？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會在……"],["何委員欣純：現在正在研擬當中嘛，對不對？就表示之前沒有嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，因為現在有托育服務法……"],["何委員欣純：對啦，你們現在在研擬當中，就是表示之前沒有嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，之前沒有在分……"],["何委員欣純：之前沒有的話，就是不管是社工人員也好、或是地方政府相關的承辦人員也好，他不知道該怎麼辦，但又必須要安置這樣子的孩子，所以他只能選擇他知道的、他找得到的、有意願的保母去送嘛。至於這個保母到底有沒有夠專業、到底有沒有認知到這個需要受保護安置的孩子的身心狀況，或是他有什麼特殊的狀況需要特別的照顧，這個保母不知道嘛、這個地方政府也不知道嘛、社工也不知道嘛，所以我們要如何制度性的去面對這個問題、解決這個問題？我覺得這個是我們衛生福利部要做的。好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，這是我們未來……"],["何委員欣純：你說在研擬當中，那什麼時候可以讓我們看得到草案？需要多久的時間？"],["薛部長瑞元：現在是在托育專法裡面要把這個放進來，托育服務法專法會跟那個兒權法的修正一起……"],["何委員欣純：需要多久時間？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前是討論到最後了，已經在預告了。"],["何委員欣純：已經在預告了？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["何委員欣純：已經在預告了，好，我希望能夠儘速，而且現在預告，未來公告執行之前，我們現在去盤點一下現行有在承接安置兒童的這些保母們，我們要如何去支持他們、輔導他們，增加他們的專業知能，才能夠好好的保護我們的孩子，大家才能夠共好，而且大家才能夠提供一個雙方相對都安全的環境嘛，是不是？部長拜託，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員的發言。","接下來請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 檢討 112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政\n署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具\n體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.36409375,"end":5.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.53284375,"end":1.8872187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.801593750000002,"end":63.227843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.020968750000002,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.88159375,"end":11.016593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.09721875,"end":70.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.47159375000001,"end":103.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.74471875,"end":115.62471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.54034375,"end":122.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.91471875,"end":123.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.18471875,"end":154.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.03971875000002,"end":133.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.92534375,"end":136.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.15471875,"end":154.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.14596875,"end":156.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.16284375,"end":155.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.85471875000002,"end":155.87159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.90534375000001,"end":157.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.26784375,"end":160.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.90034375000002,"end":173.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.63346875000002,"end":168.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.80159375000002,"end":197.58659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.24471875,"end":202.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.85596875000002,"end":205.50096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.72034375,"end":215.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.25534375,"end":212.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.38971875000001,"end":215.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.98034375,"end":220.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.46909375,"end":221.09346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.53221875000003,"end":229.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.80971875,"end":228.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.76721875,"end":229.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.81784375,"end":229.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.85159375,"end":229.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.86846875,"end":231.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.52221875,"end":239.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.23846875,"end":265.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.41971875000002,"end":240.48284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.37721875000003,"end":241.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.03409375,"end":250.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.84596875,"end":273.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.98096875000005,"end":266.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.57971875000004,"end":269.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.08534375,"end":280.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.02159375,"end":276.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.62846875,"end":308.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.72096875,"end":315.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.40346875,"end":326.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.22471875,"end":331.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.35471875,"end":331.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.82721875000004,"end":332.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.46846875,"end":335.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.81846875,"end":339.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.54784375,"end":360.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.92721875,"end":340.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.85096875000005,"end":343.57221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.32909375,"end":383.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.84034375000005,"end":386.18159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.71784375000004,"end":384.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.21971875,"end":392.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.13471875000005,"end":390.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.51409375000003,"end":406.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.28409375,"end":406.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.12346875000003,"end":410.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.46034375000005,"end":411.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.51096875,"end":411.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.81471875000005,"end":414.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.09721875,"end":419.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.42534375,"end":433.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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對不對就表示之前沒有嘛對啦 你們現在就在研擬當中就是表示之前沒有嘛之前沒有的話那我們就是不管是社工人員也好或是地方政府的相關的承辦人員也好他不知道該怎麼辦那又必須要安置這樣的孩子所以他只能選擇他知道的他找得到的有意願的保姆送嘛那至於這個保姆到底"},{"start":360.498,"end":378.952,"text":"到底有沒有夠專業,到底有沒有認知到這個需要受保護安置的孩子的身心狀況,或是他有什麼特殊的狀況,那需要特別的照顧,這個保姆不知道嘛,這個地方政府也不知道嘛,社工也不知道嘛,所以我們如何制度性的去面對這個問題,解決這個問題,我覺得這個是我們衛生福利部要做的。」"},{"start":383.975,"end":407.613,"text":"好不好?那什麼時候你說年齡當中那什麼時候可以讓我們看得到草案?需要多久的時間?現在那個是在那個托育專法裡面要把這個放進來那托育服務法這一個專法會跟那個兒犬法的修正大家一起需要多久的時間目前應該是討論到最後了"},{"start":412.368,"end":431.346,"text":"已經在預告了已經在預告了已經在預告了好那我希望能夠盡速啦那而且呢在現在預告在未來公告執行之前我們現在針對去盤點一下現行有在承接這些安置兒童的這些保姆們我們如何去支持他們輔導他們增加他們的專業資能"},{"start":434.429,"end":449.268,"text":"才能夠好好的保護我們的孩子,那大家才能夠共好啊,而且大家才能夠提供一個相對雙方都安全的環境嘛。」是不是?好不好?部長,拜託,謝謝。好,謝謝何新淳委員發言。接下來請黃國昌委員"}]}},{"id":"151687","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151687","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3fdea33b95355b074b903698ddfaa754aeadb1108e4b8443254c550af5f56c1715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"12:02:21 - 12:09:00","影片長度":"00:06:39","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":399,"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:09:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T12:02:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":964,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（12時2分）好的，請薛部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，上一次在這裡質詢，我有看到你的報告，裡面我很在乎的就是112年8月到現在你們受理移除的新影像有767件，然後你們的報告一直說完成的只有665件，成功率達到86.7%。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：我一直很想知道剩下的那10幾趴到底是怎麼回事？是他不移、還是移不掉、還是不知道？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個有一部分是因為我們之前的規範都是要請地方政府來處理……"],["黃委員珊珊：要請地方政府，地方政府沒有做？"],["薛部長瑞元：還沒有完成啦！"],["黃委員珊珊：還沒有完成？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以要多久能完成？地方政府怎麼可以不完成？我比較好奇的是他有實現嗎？然後為什麼他可以不做？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們是看到113年3月31日的時候，我們的統計是還有102件沒有完成……"],["黃委員珊珊：這102件還在架上？"],["薛部長瑞元：但是到4月22日的時候又增加32件已經移除了。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以有100多件還在架上？"],["薛部長瑞元：封網的有22件，所以還沒有移除的大概還有48件。"],["黃委員珊珊：408……"],["薛部長瑞元：是48件。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，48件還在架上，但是我們通報了還沒下架？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以部長覺得這個效率您滿意嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然這有待加強。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果他已經被通報、也命令要下架，而有48件還在架上，那我們在這裡開了這麼多次的質詢有什麼意義嗎？所以這48件我只需要知道什麼時候可以完成。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會儘速，大概……"],["黃委員珊珊：儘速？如果……"],["薛部長瑞元：我們再去文……"],["黃委員珊珊：如果他還在侵害我們的兒少，這件事情是不可以容忍的。"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦，我們還是會再催促。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果衛福部相關的主管機關都已經通報到地方政府，而他還在架上，這件事情是沒有辦法向國人交代的，好嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：是，我們會再催啦。"],["黃委員珊珊：我覺得不能給你很久的時間，只能有幾天的時間，我覺得這個禮拜之內要完成，這是第一點。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果還有這些狀況……這一次為什麼黃子佼的案子影響這麼大？在我們質詢相關部門時，法務部也說了，他們有向法院聲請屏蔽，法院也准了，但他換個名字，第二天又復活了。我想知道這665件有沒有復活的狀況？還有你剛剛講的48件還活在上面的，這邊七百多件加上你新通報的件數，有沒有在追蹤？他有沒有跟那個創意私房的案子一樣重新復活？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，移除下架是不會有復活的問題，那個是網站才會，移除下架是我們把它……"],["黃委員珊珊：是，他在那邊不復活了嘛，他不會再復活了，所以不會再有了。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果像創意私房這樣，它是整個被屏蔽掉的，剛剛講因為有很多件嘛，那一些有沒有再復活？"],["薛部長瑞元：這我們會再追蹤，那個部分是有22件。"],["黃委員珊珊：22件，他可不可能再復活？我們什麼時候追？追了沒？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們就必須要再追蹤。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以還沒追？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為這個我們要主動去巡網才看得出來。"],["黃委員珊珊：巡網。所以我沒有要求你全部巡，我只要求你巡這些已經被你屏蔽掉的是不是換個名字再復活了，就這22件給我們一個簡單的追蹤報告。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會儘量再追蹤。"],["黃委員珊珊：為什麼政府已經在關心而且也通報到，然後他竟然還可以繼續存在甚至也下不了架？這是讓國人沒有辦法接受的，而且新聞鬧這麼大了，我們的數發部突然間做得到，這讓我們嚇一跳！所以顯然做得到，是以前沒想到，現在要繼續往修法的方向走。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：我們看到你的修法方向不錯，但是裡面我想問一下部長，有沒有考慮過比照性侵害防制條例將所謂的這些加害人，尤其是兒少性影像、數位性暴力的這些行為人，我們考慮給他比照相關性侵害的……應該說是被告、加害人，做相關的處遇或者是強制治療嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我們是有相關的一些規定。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以最新的法規裡面會增加行為人處遇的部分嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：但是有一些還是必須要做判斷，有一些是反社會人格違常的，這個治療是無效的。"],["黃委員珊珊：也是無效。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是我們要不要加入這方面的處遇計畫，寫在我們新要修正的法案裡面？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們本來的法條裡面就有輔導教育。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，對於他的這些後續不是只有輔導教育，比照可能最後要強制治療，強制治療可能是不是要入法才行？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個可能還需要再討論，因為我剛剛提到，強制治療的效果可能……"],["黃委員珊珊：不見得好。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，但是如果那種輕度的……"],["黃委員珊珊：但是我們如果連強制治療的機制都沒有，就更沒有機會了！"],["薛部長瑞元：如果是那種輕度的、認知不正確等等這些的話，就是經由輔導教育……"],["黃委員珊珊：部長，我的意思是如果有這種人，我們不要掛一漏萬，我們少了這個制度就沒有機會，但是有可能效益不好，這我同意，但是我們增加了這個機會。"],["薛部長瑞元：我是認為以司法的方式去做處理會比較好。"],["黃委員珊珊：司法的方式，好。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為治療效果不好等於是浪費社會的資源。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是如果這些需要協助治療的，我覺得政府還是有必要讓他有機會得到這樣的協助。"],["薛部長瑞元：那就是要分級嘛，所以我們剛才說……"],["黃委員珊珊：就像酒癮跟毒癮不見得一定要用強制的方式，但是我們要給他這樣的選擇，你懂我的意思嗎？我們要有這樣的選擇機會。最重要的是我希望在修法裡面要很清楚，後續就剛剛所講這些需要追蹤的，我希望一個星期內把剛剛我所問的這些內容、你們追蹤的計畫提供給本席。謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員的發言。","接下來請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 檢討 112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政\n署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具\n體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6890937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.36409375,"end":2.4778437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.6634687500000003,"end":3.3553437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.60846875,"end":4.469093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.738468750000003,"end":9.109718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.109718750000003,"end":9.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.34596875,"end":9.396593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.004093750000003,"end":37.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.86284375,"end":22.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.28471875,"end":23.301593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.06471875,"end":27.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.74221875,"end":46.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.297843750000006,"end":51.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.52971875,"end":49.947218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.36471875,"end":54.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.157843750000005,"end":52.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.46534375,"end":58.35096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.705343750000004,"end":63.666593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.00409375000001,"end":82.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.04909375,"end":74.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.27159375000001,"end":80.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.38534375,"end":83.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.47784375,"end":85.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.62096875,"end":88.92846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.31659375000001,"end":90.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.88596875,"end":91.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.90284375,"end":92.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.71284375,"end":91.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.84784375000001,"end":91.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.16846875,"end":92.45534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.45534375000001,"end":99.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.79221875,"end":96.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.96096875,"end":97.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.08284375000001,"end":101.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.70284375,"end":110.41034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.73096875,"end":113.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.47721875,"end":114.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.49409375,"end":114.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.52784375,"end":115.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.33784375,"end":115.87784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.87784375000001,"end":115.91159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.91159375000001,"end":116.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.92846875000001,"end":119.42159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.09284375000001,"end":124.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.16409375,"end":121.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.70346875000001,"end":144.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.49534375000002,"end":133.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.68096875,"end":134.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.92971875,"end":135.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.19534375,"end":136.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.76784375,"end":150.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.55596875,"end":153.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.26846875,"end":154.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.36534375000002,"end":158.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.12846875,"end":164.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.79846875,"end":178.65284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.65284375000002,"end":179.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.32784375,"end":186.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.56784375,"end":183.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.72784375,"end":185.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.95971875,"end":187.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.56284375,"end":187.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.57971875,"end":196.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.26284375,"end":190.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.17346875,"end":196.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.57409375,"end":196.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.59096875,"end":196.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.67534375000002,"end":203.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.77596875,"end":201.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.29034375,"end":207.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","s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療可能也是不是要入法才行"},{"start":320.59,"end":344.622,"text":"這個可能還是需要再討論啦因為我剛剛提到強制治療它的效果可能不見得好但是我們如果連強制治療的機制都沒有就更沒有機會啦如果是那種輕度的認知認知不正確啦等等這些的話就是經由輔導部長我的意思是說如果有這種人我們不要掛一漏萬"},{"start":345.262,"end":363.761,"text":"我們少了這個制度就沒有機會但是有可能效益不好我同意但是我們增加了這個機會我是認為說以司法的方式去做處理會比較好司法處理是比較好因為這治療效果不好這等於是浪費這個社會的自由但是如果這些"},{"start":364.441,"end":380.962,"text":"需要協助治療的我覺得政府還是有必要讓他有機會得到這樣的協助就像酒飲跟毒飲不見得他一定要用強制的方式但是我們要給他這樣的選擇你懂我的意思嗎我們有這樣的選擇的機會那最重要的是"},{"start":381.883,"end":399.394,"text":"我希望在你修法裏面很清楚的是後續的剛剛講的這些需要追蹤的我希望一個星期把剛剛我所問的這些內容你們追蹤的計畫提供給本席謝謝好謝謝黃珊珊委員的發言接下來請何欣淳"}]}},{"id":"151686","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151686","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb399780a4f3ec24f476abc9c09ba589754eadb1108e4b84432374e8c2d51edcf395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"12:10:23 - 12:17:23","影片長度":"00:07:00","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":420,"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:17:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T12:10:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":848,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（12時10分）主席、各位委員、各位官員，大家好！我想請吳次長。"],["主席：請吳次長。","我跟各位報告一下，我們中午不休息，謝謝。"],["吳次長容輝：委員好！"],["陳委員菁徽：我們希望花蓮平安，也很感謝內政部和這次救災的國軍弟兄，但是我們也必須來要檢討目前防災的重要性，因為我昨天遇到很多駐臺的使節，他們在這些餘震之後，心裡非常的害怕，他們也住過非常多其他的國家，所以我們今天主要是要來對比一下，也要學習鄰國日本，這樣我們就會知道，臺灣目前的防災機制是脆弱到不行。剛剛我有聽到其他的委員也有講到，很多房子、尤其是雙北市的房子，他們都是在921地震之前蓋的，所以假使這樣級數的地震發生在雙北，那後果將不堪設想，所以次長，你有自己查過你們家附近的防災設施在哪裡嗎？"],["吳次長容輝：報告委員，這一部分我倒是沒有。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，因為上上個禮拜的大地震和餘震，所以很多人都開始在想，假使他必須要避難的話，他需要到哪裡？所以網路上也有一番討論，但是……我們可以播放一下，你知道經由內政部消防署的網站去查詢這個資訊，要先選擇是住在哪一個縣市、哪一區、哪一個鄉鎮，光是查詢這些就需要20秒的時間，時間非常的長。也許平常我們在家裡就會準備防災包，這個大家都有接受過教育，可是地震常常發生在我們上班、通勤的時候，這時候我就必須要緊急的去搜尋附近的防災設施，像避難所和避難的路線在哪裡，但是這裡面都沒有顯示這些資訊。","我們和日本比起來，日本從學校畢業以後，他們小時候就有教防災和防震，但是日本的消防法還是有規定很多人的場所，比如說醫院、工廠、娛樂場所和商業場所都要制定消防計畫和避難訓練等等，可是我們內政部的防災管理制度並沒有把重點放在防震，而是放在防火比較多，比如我們有設防火管理人，但是不是防災管理人。下一張請次長看一下，我們走在路上幾乎看不太到有任何顯眼的有關防災避難的相關資訊。我們看一下我們跟日本的差別，一樣，同樣是電線桿，但是我們上面貼的是房屋廣告；可是日本的話，你會發現它是告訴你最近的避難所在哪裡，而且是往哪一個方向、距離多遠。","再來，我們可以看到，他們有評估某一些區域可能在地震發生後，大家都知道不能躲在冰箱旁邊，所以你要找到你的救災包，但是如果你是在外面的話，你就可以看出這兩國的差別，它可以馬上把販賣機變成免費的，讓民眾可以來領取糧食，所以我也想要建議次長，能不能把這樣的概念納入到臺灣的概念中，因為我們大宗都是超商或是大賣場等等的。"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員的指教，其實這個防災資訊我們消防署有一個app，警政單位也有，當然這個必須要廣泛的宣傳，讓民眾可以清楚的知道，你可以透過這個app去得到相關的資訊，就像剛剛委員講的，這個上網查可能還要一段時間。"],["陳委員菁徽：還有，查到了最近的避難所在哪裡後，你們沒有路線的指引，所以最後我會有一個比較具體的建議。","再來，我們來看一下，日本自從311大地震之後，他們充分的發現他們必須要改進自己的防災是在於互助的力道，因為每一個社區的特性可能不同，所以只有社區才會最瞭解自己的特殊性，比如說他們可能有設國家級警報是多少釐米才會警告要避難，但是低窪地區社區的居民就會主動降低這個標準來預做準備，所以他們把這個防災計畫社區化之後，目前已經有三千多個社區具體的提出自己的計畫，然後把防災延伸到基層，而且加強互助的概念，所以我具體的建議內政部，是不是應該要研究一下，把防火管理人更改成防災管理人？而且我們可以從防災意識、計畫、都市設計和理念，慢慢的從縣市往下延伸到社區，讓他們可以發揮他們的互助概念。"],["吳次長容輝：好，謝謝委員！我想防災社區這一部分，我們現在也正在推動，你剛才建議的這部分，我們會來研究一下，看要不要把它改為防災管理人，這個都可以討論，我們會來討論，謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，不好意思，再1分鐘。最後，你剛有提到這個app，的確建構一個完善的app吃力不討好，且預算很高。這是我們很多業務常常都會用的，就是很簡單的Google Maps，在哪一個區域，它就可以找到附近有什麼咖啡廳、餐廳，而且還可以直接引導你到那個路線，所以我要具體的建議內政部，是不是可以考慮跟這些大型的網路公司合作？因為不管在什麼位置遇到災難，其實它都可以具體的找出最近的避難所應該要怎麼去。"],["吳次長容輝：委員，這部分我請署長來跟你回答。"],["陳委員菁徽：是。"],["蕭署長煥章：感謝委員關心防災的議題，現在我們開發的防災app事實上就有這樣的功能，甚至還可以用虛擬導覽的方式來到達避難的地方，這個目前已經建置好。當然，實際上的運作，如果委員建議要跟Google合作……"],["陳委員菁徽：但是你旁邊的次長剛剛說，他並沒有具體的去查過他家附近的防災所。"],["蕭署長煥章：這有兩個部分，就是防災的社區和防災地圖這個部分，這些地方政府都已經建置好，只不過對於意識的推動，我們可能還有很大的努力空間，這是第一部分。第二部分，GIS地圖的使用，目前臺灣已經有開發這個系統，這個目前我們正在推動，請大家儘量使用，當然，好用的話就可以使用。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，也希望你們可以具體的宣傳和落實這個教育，防災的演練也應該要把這個東西落實進去。謝謝主席。"],["蕭署長煥章：沒問題，瞭解，感謝委員！"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員的質詢。","下一位鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","羅智強、羅智強、羅智強委員不在。","鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","吳沛憶、吳沛憶、吳沛憶委員不在。","請陳培瑜委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-14","speakers":["吳琪銘","莊瑞雄","羅美玲","陳玉珍","黃捷","陳培瑜","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","吳沛憶","王美惠","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","李柏毅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","黃國昌","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳菁徽","陳冠廷","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案；二、審查內政\n部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)\n行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六\n條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國\n籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員\n林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員莊\n瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案、 (十五)委員林岱樺等\n17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四\n條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.1359687500000004,"end":6.392843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.3553437500000003,"end":4.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.0259687500000005,"end":5.5153437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.83159375,"end":7.472843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.94096875,"end":9.649718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.45971875,"end":10.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.77596875,"end":12.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.24846875,"end":12.282218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.661593750000002,"end":25.664093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.984718750000003,"end":27.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.53721875,"end":41.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.032843750000005,"end":43.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.602218750000006,"end":59.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.954093750000006,"end":60.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.27034375,"end":66.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.42096875,"end":71.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.91409375,"end":73.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.65659375,"end":88.23659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.70909375000001,"end":162.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.21659375000002,"end":162.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.90846875,"end":177.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.46284375000002,"end":179.80034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.96909375,"end":180.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.03221875,"end":181.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.56346875,"end":184.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.13284375,"end":197.92409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.12659375,"end":199.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.13909375,"end":211.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.40284375000002,"end":221.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.33846875,"end":219.60846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.29159375,"end":234.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.03659375,"end":298.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.01909375000002,"end":238.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.20471875,"end":238.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":239.97659375,"end":240.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.19096875,"end":312.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.02034375,"end":311.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.16784375000003,"end":317.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.52971875000003,"end":347.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.88784375,"end":353.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.80284375,"end":353.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.13596875,"end":368.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.56409375000004,"end":373.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.20471875000004,"end":373.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.22159375,"end":378.65534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.58784375000005,"end":402.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.01284375,"end":386.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.21909375,"end":389.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.99534375,"end":391.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.85409375,"end":410.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.29284375000003,"end":404.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.50284375,"end":410.65034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.47284375000004,"end":418.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.04971875,"end":420.97784375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.529,"end":11.859,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":14.71,"end":40.221,"text":"我們希望花蓮平安也很感謝內政部還有感謝這次救災的國軍弟兄但是我們也必須要來檢討我們目前這個防災的重要性因為昨天也遇到很多住外這個住台的使節啦他們在這些餘震之後心非常害怕那也他們也住過非常多其他的國家所以我們今天主要是來對比一下也學習鄰國日本"},{"start":42.082,"end":56.827,"text":"審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計2案。四、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。五、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案。六、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。七、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。八、審查113年度中央政府總預算凍結書面報告案。"},{"start":69.671,"end":76.478,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":89.109,"end":112.117,"text":"經由這個內政部的消防署要先選擇住在哪一個縣市哪一區哪一個鄉鎮光是查詢這些就需要20秒的時間非常的長好也許平常我們在家裡會準備防災包這個都是大家有接受教育的可是地震常常發生在我們上班的時候在通勤的時候"},{"start":112.677,"end":118.341,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。"},{"start":134.031,"end":139.574,"text":"審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。三、審查內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案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Mcgillis應該很熟悉，對不對？昨天這位專門研究核能的專家直接說了，第一個，他說臺灣承受不起缺電，因為我們現在在發展半導體嘛！","你看，台積電每次擴廠或者蓋新廠，需要多少電？他說到一個非常關鍵的地方，賴清德，就是我們的總統當選人，一定要趁機趕快調整廢核的政策。老實說這件事就在一念之間，所以本席今天才會請教你，從專業的角度來看，因為你們負責安全，對不對？本席的意思是，不管是核三廠延役或是核二廠重啟，你們在安全上可以提供很專業的意見，可以確保安全嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：安全的部分是要去努力的，它無法做完全的保證。委員，我沒有要辯論的意思。"],["張委員啓楷：本席知道，這部分當然要尊重你們的專業。"],["陳主任委員東陽：包括人為疏失、天災、地震，它總是有風險，這其實也是另外一種聲音的依據。因為它會有這樣的風險，我沒有辦法告訴你一定安全或一定不安全，即便是每次地震，其實我們都很擔心，也要趕快看一下到底有沒有什麼樣的問題，這也是社會大眾關心、關切的問題。"],["張委員啓楷：現在經濟是我們發展的命脈，本席本身也在經濟委員會，所以今天特別來問你這件事情。本席剛才特別說到，半導體的發展太重要了，包括台積電都要到嘉義設廠，所以對於用水、用電，本席都非常注意。當然，因為這個議題就在一線之間，民進黨政府到底要不要做？","本席認為如果民進黨政府想要讓核三延役，相信各部門很快就可以行動；如果沒有的話，現在在野黨都在努力，很多立委也有提案。本席直接請教你，例如有人提案讓核三廠可以直接延長使用，對不對？他的提案就是將條文中的除役時間往後拉，可是本席看到條文中會碰到一個問題，就是要在5年前提出來，對不對？目前修法有辦法處理剛才說的這個問題嗎？就是要5年前提出來。"],["陳主任委員東陽：修法是一件事啦！但是核三廠1號機是7月27日停機，我們盤整了所有國外的案例，並沒有未核發執照就可以繼續延役的例子，這是我們目前在國際上所做的literature survey，也是對所有案例的觀察。"],["張委員啓楷：主委，剛才德國那個案例可不可以去了解一下？"],["陳主任委員東陽：我們去稍微了解一下，好。"],["張委員啓楷：如果德國能的話，本席相信臺灣也能啦！當然，安全仍然是第一啦！"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。"],["張委員啓楷：我們不會在安全沒有把握之下去推延役，這是不可能的，一定要尊重專家的意見，可是德國這個例子可以參考一下，好不好？另外還有一個問題，本席找到一個解套的方式，我們民國98年曾經進行核一廠延役的程序，後來是因為日本遇到311福島事件，對不對？現在如果要重新啟動，98年這個模式是不是可以比照辦理？"],["陳主任委員東陽：委員是說核……"],["張委員啓楷：我們在民國98年有做核一廠的延役準備，對不對？"],["陳主任委員東陽：委員是說核一廠嗎？"],["張委員啓楷：對。"],["陳主任委員東陽：核一廠還是……"],["張委員啓楷：不是喔！現在不是說核一廠要延役。民國98年是討論核一廠延役，對不對？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。"],["張委員啓楷：本席是說整個程序可以比照辦理。例如核三廠現在決定要延役的話，可以比照核一廠當時的狀況處理嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：核一廠當時的狀態是在5年前處理，現在是在5年以內，因為核三廠只剩下幾個月的時間而已，情況不一樣。"],["張委員啓楷：所以沒有辦法比照？還是卡到5年的時間，是嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。"],["張委員啓楷：所以現在看起來，除非政府要推動，然後各部會動起來，要不然的話，那個5年的規定就卡死了，是不是這樣？包括目前各黨所提的任何修法，5年這個問題是不是都解不開？"],["陳主任委員東陽：修法是比較大的議題，牽扯到很多層面，我剛才和不同的委員也做了一些報告，除了我們的核管法之外，它還牽扯到很多子法，彼此交錯連在一起，具體來說，如果要非常完備的話，其實需要很縝密的思考，要坐下來看，這是法律問題。"],["張委員啓楷：是法律問題，但也牽扯到很多專業知識。剛才孟楷委員問你，你也認為核電是一個減碳的能源，尤其是對臺灣現在的發展來說，我們需要更多電力。最後一個問題請教主委，如果核三的1號機或2號機要延役，或者是核二廠要重新啟動，到底有什麼辦法？除了卡到5年的時間之外。修法嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：修法是最重要的，當然還有一些技術上的問題，例如……"],["張委員啓楷：不好意思，修法要怎麼修？技術上又是怎麼樣？你們要提供意見。"],["陳主任委員東陽：修法怎麼修是……"],["張委員啓楷：本席現在只是問你的專業意見，無關專業的部分，或者有碰到政治的，你不用回答。完全去除政治因素，你現在可能會被問到兩個問題，有可能是執政黨的總統或是哪一位政府官員，最近就找你去問話，如果真的要延役或者除役，一定會問你的意見，對不對？也有可能是在野黨會請教你這個問題，太敏感的部分，你不用回答，沒有關係，本席問的是專業的問題。"],["陳主任委員東陽：這一題比較簡單。因為能源政策是經濟部主管，所以他不會問我啦！"],["張委員啓楷：核能安全是最重要的，總統一定會問你啦！"],["陳主任委員東陽：其實我們是核能安全管制機關，先向委員做個說明。"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，你還是沒有回答本席的問題。你說總統不會問你，是嗎？如果是民間的力量呢？現在不是只有在野黨關心喔！你看，經濟部長一上任就說要解決缺電的問題，核能可能是其中一個考慮。產業、企業也提出，希望核能這個問題可以解決。現在除了修法之外，本席剛才問你，你說5年這個問題卡住了，那麼到底有沒有方法可以解套？"],["主席：張委員，不好意思，因為時間……"],["張委員啓楷：抱歉，馬上好。"],["主席：是不是會後提供書面報告？或者會後再向張委員答復，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：本席私底下再請教主委，感謝。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。","接下來請林楚茵委員、林楚茵、林楚茵委員不在。","請邱志偉委員、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","請蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請何欣純、何欣純、何欣純委員不在。","請范委員雲發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葉元之","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","范雲","張嘉郡","吳春城"],"page_start":251,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會\n列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查 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Survey所有的案例的去觀察注意剛才提到那個那個可不可以追一下那個德國的是用我們去稍微瞭解一下好好不好如果德國能的話我相信台灣也能啦當然這個安全一定是第一啦我們不會在安全沒有把握之下去推這個什麼不可能一定要尊重你們專家的意見"},{"start":317.805,"end":335.514,"text":"可是德國這個去參考一下很好另外還有一個問題我找到一個解套的方式是我們民國九十八年曾經進行核一廠這個研議的程序嘛因為他們是放在三一這個輔導這個事件嘛對不對那現在如果要重新啟動是不是98年這個模式可以比照辦理你是說委員是說我們在民國98年有做核一廠的那個研議的準備嘛對不對委員是說核一廠嘛對對對那種核一廠那還是不是喔 現在不是說核一廠要"},{"start":348.451,"end":376.054,"text":"那時候民國90年代是核一廠研議嘛對不對我說這個整個程序可以比例如說核三廠現在決定要研議的話可以比照核一廠那時候的狀況來做嗎核一廠那時候的狀態是在五年前那現在是在五年以內核三廠剩下就是幾個月而已所以情況是不一樣的所以沒辦法比照還是卡到那五年就對了對對對所以現在看起來第一回說政府說要塞所以我們各個部會就動起來要不然的話那個五年就卡死了是不是這樣"},{"start":376.994,"end":383.328,"text":"那包括目前各黨現在提任的修法這五年事情都解不開嗎?是不是都解不開?"},{"start":384.878,"end":406.974,"text":"修法是比較大的議題牽扯到很多層面我剛才跟不同的委員做一些報告除了我們的核關法之外牽扯到很多的執法交錯的連在一起具體來講要非常完備其實需要很整密的思考跟做下來看這是法律問題"},{"start":409.264,"end":435.035,"text":"法律問題也牽扯到很多專業嘛我剛才看你剛才內部在蒙尼神、孟楷在蒙尼你也認為說核電是一個減碳的能源嘛尤其現在對我們台灣的發電來說電是需要更多的電的所以最後一個問題我請教請教請教諸位所以如果真的要研議核三的一號機或者二號機或者是這個核二廠要重新的話"},{"start":436.24,"end":440.773,"text":"到底有什麼辦法?除了卡德納五年之外有什麼辦法?修法"},{"start":441.966,"end":469.536,"text":"修法是最重要的啦那當然還有一些技術上的問題不好意思 修法怎麼修 技術上怎麼樣因為你要提供意見我現在只問你專業你認為不是不合專業的有碰到政治的你不要回答我就是完全去除到政治的你現在有兩種可能會被問到同樣有問題有可能執政黨的政府比如說總統最近就出去了他如果說真的要做研議或者廚藝他就問你了 對不對"},{"start":470.856,"end":485.232,"text":"那也有可能在野黨要請教你這個問題你太敏感你不用回答沒關係我問的是專業的問題先跟委員報告那個人員政策是經濟部啦所以他不會問我啦我們其實是核能安全的管理機關所以這個先跟委員做個說明"},{"start":493.562,"end":514.497,"text":"抱歉你還是沒有回答我的問題啊你說總統不問你是吧那如果說民間的力量不是只有在野黨喔現在很多你看經濟部長新上去就說要解決缺電的問題嘛所以核能可能都是其中一個考慮企業界都已經提說希望核能這個問題可以解決嘛現在到底除了修法我剛問你你已經講五年這個卡住啦那到底有沒有什麼方式可以解套"},{"start":515.297,"end":524.204,"text":"張委員不好意思因為時間 是不是事後我們把書面報告 或者事後再跟張委員打訊息"}]}},{"id":"151684","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151684","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb327472c62d3a2e6e66abc9c09ba589754eadb1108e4b84432d8a29ef9c6792bc05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"12:00:56 - 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Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":557,"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:10:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T12:00:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":819,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（12時）謝謝召委，有請內政部吳次長。"],["主席：好，請次長。謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：次長，這次推動國籍法其實我也喊得很大聲，大家都一起打拼。從2021年以殊勳歸化的阿提諾，到去年成功經國際籃總認證是本土資格的阿巴西，一路走來大家都有一點貢獻，在內政委員會大家一起努力。可是本席在上一屆，就是2021年提出一個修法版本，上一屆本席當召委的時候其實很想排審，但是沒有辦法，你們說要等院版出來，後來院版也真的出來了，要一起審查，又遇到徐春鶯的爭議，所以暫行擱置。因為屆期不連續，又拖過了一陣子，所以今天我感謝吳琪銘召委排審。","其實我們倒可以藉這個時候好好討論國籍法面臨的一些困境，我看這麼多委員的版本，大家對於第五條高專人才的年限修正為滿183天，還有曾經合法居留5年以上，是比較沒有爭議而且有高度共識的，這個也是這一條的修法方向，本席的版本也一樣，但是我想要特別提出歸化為我國國籍以後的一些權利義務。國籍法修訂之後，最先受惠的一定是我國的運動產業，尤其是籃球的部分，人才有了，意願有了，就在等這個法規的修正。但是我們去看過去的歷史，你看足球在2017年的時候，史上第一個足球員歸化，中間也發生了一些爭議，最後他只穿了國家隊的球衣踢一場球而已，這很可惜，所以本席想先請教次長，這一次國籍法裡面是不是可以加入一些但書，就是一些附款？內政部是不是可以認同？這個部分為什麼有必要？因為我們的護照太好用了，我們的護照對於部分職業運動選手來講是非常好用的，尤其是我們到很多國家都可以免簽，同時很多人想去對岸的職業聯賽發展，畢竟錢比較多，比我們的本土聯賽還要好。對岸長期以來為了吸引我們優秀的選手，在職業運動聯賽裡面都有一些特例，以籃球為例，中國的聯賽常常會限定洋將的名額，但同時很厲害，它還給你弄一個港澳臺球員的特例。為了避免我國國籍成為有心人士的跳板，我建議內政部注意這個情形，是不是在法條中設計，還是跟相關部會研議配套的子法，讓依照本條申請歸化通過的人，後續還是要受各目的主管機關某一個程度的列管，配合履行相關義務？不知道次長的看法怎麼樣？"],["吳次長容輝：謝謝委員對這個議題的關心，如果歸化國籍以後我們再附帶條款的話，會不會違背行政程序法第九十三條的規定？對於這種附帶條款的處分，我們要比較慎重一點。我們只是臆測他以後可能會違反當初的承諾，我覺得……"],["莊委員瑞雄：沒有，不是臆測，前面都已經發生了。"],["吳次長容輝：對啦！已經發生。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這樣我們的心情會很差，因為我們拼得要命，結果他進來之後只打一場球，穿一次球衣就不見了，我們有時候也臉上無光。"],["吳次長容輝：可是我覺得這部分應該在企業跟他的合約上規範，也許會比較好一點。"],["莊委員瑞雄：合理啦！這樣比較不會大家為了增強戰力，讓他來穿一下球衣、待一下之後騙我們。","剩下一點時間，不好意思，1分鐘就好。另外請教次長，這個月初花蓮天王星大樓倒塌引起全國人民關注，昨天再度發生一些餘震，這兩棟看起來好像也不保，就是統帥跟富凱大樓。你仔細看，2016年臺南地震倒塌的建築物是維冠，2018年是花蓮的統帥跟雲門翠堤，2022年你看玉里的7-ELEVEN倒塌，2024大家都知道天王星還有北濱街的一些民宅出問題，你從這一些可以看到建造的時間差不多都在921之前。另外，他們差不多都是有軟層或是弱層的建築，就是軟腳蝦建築，這些署長最瞭解了，有些不規則的結構。建造的時間在921之前會發生什麼問題？舉重的時候選手要綁腰帶，縱向強度要發揮，要先有足夠的側向保護，建築物也是，大家蓋房子的時候都一樣，都是用柱箍筋箍住柱子，它的功用就跟腰帶類似，就是提供柱子四周的圍束力，如果間距過大或是太細，有時候房子就會倒塌。921之後有修法，強制規定主結構的柱、梁一定要採用耐彎的彎鉤，降低柱子高軸壓狀態核心爆裂的風險。","本席倒是有一個想法，現在我們每年都有這些資料，像這一次地震裡面屬於高風險的建築，有紅單、黃單、危老都更，由地方縣市政府納管，中央進一步要怎麼幫忙處理或管制？"],["吳次長容輝：這一部分我是不是請署長說明？"],["莊委員瑞雄：國土署。"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，我們在108年、109年就曾經針對全臺灣七樓以上的建築物快篩，把這些設計圖全部先篩過一遍，全臺灣大概有1萬2,000件，從建照圖就看得出是屬於比較弱層的設計，所以當時也把這些資料寄給各地方政府，請他們轉知這些所有權人，一定要仔細瞭解自己的狀況，當然也鼓勵他們做耐震補強。我們還是會針對這一些從快篩就看得出來的……我們最近都有持續要求地方政府，還是要請這些所有權人儘早申請相關的初、詳評跟耐震補強。這個部分其實我們有相關的名單。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我要點出來，國土署的災害後危險建築物緊急評估辦法第三條第二項也明確規定，「每半年至少檢討更新資料內容一次……至少舉辦一次災害後危險建築物緊急評估作業動員演練。」我看一看之後覺得，有時候我們都是講一講，規定在那裡，有沒有落實真的是很大的一個問題。你說全部都篩出來了，建築物這麼多的清單裡面，作為是什麼？有做什麼補強嗎？有清查，然後呢？補強呢？"],["吳署長欣修：我瞭解。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這是很大的工程，變成遇到事情之後，大家就說有做事，我就問你後面做了什麼？都只是清查而已。你說有紅單在那裡，你說有黃單在那裡，這個月大家都會怕，動不動就給你搖一下。我相信全臺灣一定有很多類似的建築物，不是只有花蓮。目前紅、黃單的機制很明顯，你只有清查，沒有發揮預期的效果。內政部國土署跟地方可以藉這個機會想一下，看要怎麼好好合作，靠你們是不可能的事情，你們也只能篩而已，後面要怎麼落實？"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這是我的重點，好不好？署長。"],["吳署長欣修：好，我們會加強後面紅、黃單的部分。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個不能開玩笑。"],["吳署長欣修：我知道。"],["莊委員瑞雄：短時間你當然做不到，但總是有那些資料跟管制辦法，下一次地震來時總要有一個因應之道，也不用說未雨綢繆，這個大家都知道，這怎麼會是未雨綢繆？這已經算是補破網了，好不好？吳署長欣修：好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊瑞雄委員的質詢，謝謝。","下一位請陳菁徽委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-14","speakers":["吳琪銘","莊瑞雄","羅美玲","陳玉珍","黃捷","陳培瑜","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","吳沛憶","王美惠","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","李柏毅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","黃國昌","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳菁徽","陳冠廷","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案；二、審查內政\n部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)\n行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六\n條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國\n籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員\n林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員莊\n瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案、 (十五)委員林岱樺等\n17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四\n條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.29659375,"end":1.7353437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.57909375,"end":2.9672187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.03034375,"end":38.134718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.21909375,"end":49.187843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.38596875,"end":51.212843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.46596875,"end":59.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.48159375,"end":66.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.95721875000001,"end":67.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.39159375,"end":186.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.14096875,"end":191.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.43971875000003,"end":193.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.72221875000002,"end":200.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.29909375000003,"end":205.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.60221875000002,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.24284375000002,"end":211.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.59284375000001,"end":214.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.79909375000003,"end":218.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.27971875,"end":217.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.52846875,"end":229.96971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.19846875000002,"end":224.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.02534375000002,"end":229.53096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.96971875000003,"end":233.85096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.85096875000002,"end":234.67784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.82971875,"end":243.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.69784375,"end":273.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.59159375,"end":278.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.60346875,"end":291.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.69409375000004,"end":315.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.81284375,"end":337.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.40846875,"end":353.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":353.42721875,"end":360.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.17284375,"end":365.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.57784375,"end":361.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.47159375,"end":370.50471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.50471875000005,"end":370.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.23034375000003,"end":371.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.77034375000005,"end":371.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.36096875000004,"end":372.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.37784375,"end":375.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.81221875,"end":374.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.68971875,"end":374.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.39846875,"end":376.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.15784375000004,"end":410.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.65034375000005,"end":433.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.97159375,"end":455.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.65846875000005,"end":440.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.72346875000005,"end":466.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":467.50221875000005,"end":468.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":469.71284375000005,"end":469.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.16846875000005,"end":472.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.91909375000006,"end":475.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.00721875000005,"end":480.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.13721875000005,"end":486.40221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.70596875,"end":487.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.29221875,"end":489.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.68846875,"end":504.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.03221875,"end":512.2547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":512.74409375,"end":516.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":517.5872187499999,"end":519.0890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.5447187500001,"end":525.0459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.0459687499999,"end":528.9440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":527.05409375,"end":532.0828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":532.97721875,"end":539.2547187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":539.71034375,"end":540.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.1615937500001,"end":546.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.29659375,"end":541.5834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.57846875,"end":546.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.91596875,"end":548.5359687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12:08:48","影片長度":"00:05:45","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案。\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員黃建賓等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-9"},"duration":345,"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:08:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T12:03:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":879,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時3分）謝謝主席，經濟部長有請。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：不好意思，我們看一下投影片。沒關係，部長，我們先開始討論，這樣節省會議的時間。","今天要討論的是工輔法的修正，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：當然工輔法時間很長，然後大家也針對各個法條去提出，讓這個法案越加完善，比如說這一次有講危險物品申報義務處罰條款的增列；工廠加保雇主意外責任險，它其實是逐步的讓工廠管理輔導法日漸完善。但是本席今天要提一個經濟部早就應該開始的案子，就是有關於倉儲的管理，部長，我們的倉儲應該也算是經濟產業的一環，對不對？"],["王部長美花：倉儲的部分，如果是物流業，那物流業也是一環。"],["牛委員煦庭：不是物流業，它也應該是經濟行為，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：任何的產業在物流過程中都有倉儲的需求，所以本來就要有所謂的倉儲區、庫存區這些東西，對不對？以部長的瞭解，這些目前有被有效的規範嗎？"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，事實上倉儲的問題我們有做過跨部會的討論，因為倉儲的所在地區，有的是在一般區域，有的其實是在特定區，所以歸管上會有不同的單位，這是第一個；第二個，倉儲業者一定也要受到消防法的規範，所以消防法裡面其實就有規定，裡面的危險物品多少量以上的也都要申報、也都要管理，這個就歸地方政府應該要去查察等等的。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，我們都希望不管是修工輔法也好或者是其他，都是希望降低災損，避免它造成經濟上有一些影響，不過，如果部長有留意，產業最害怕的其實就是火災，除了停電之外，停電一事很多人問過你了，我今天就不問你了，他們就比較怕火災，對不對？這幾次大型的、全國關注的，包含美福倉儲，PChome林口倉庫跟家樂福倉庫，其實都是倉儲，難道它不應該被特案的來做檢討嗎？部長知不知道倉儲火災占各種火災發生的比例大概有多少？"],["王部長美花：這個我倒沒有特別去統計過。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們相關的負責單位要不要救援一下？你們有研究這件事嗎？"],["王部長美花：沒有特別統計，這個都是由地方的消防單位在做統計。"],["牛委員煦庭：是啊！按照111年的消防統計年報，住宅火災的比例當然是最高的，再來是營業場所的火災，這是因為母體數量的關係。但是部長看一下作業場所的火災，這也就是一般大家認知所謂的工廠，在總計裡面是有411場火災；倉庫的火災則是有371件，不管是六都或是非六都，你都可以看得出來，其實在火災裡面，倉庫占總體的比例，排除住宅、排除商業後，也就是大家講的在製造業這一塊裡面，其實倉庫火災的數量，大概就占了百分之四十，接近一半的比例，部長，難道我們不應該特別針對這個部分去做一個檢討嗎？"],["王部長美花：這個部分我們在跨部會的時候有討論，而且也確實像委員講的，桃園發生了幾件事故，這個部分我會再請我們的同仁跟消防署、地方政府，針對倉儲的部分，因為確實它裡面會有悶燒的問題，所以怎麼樣做更好的管理，這個我會找幾個單位來一起討論。"],["牛委員煦庭：因為倉儲本身會堆放大量的貨物，就是它的火載量，火載量就是單位面積可燃物完全燃燒釋放出來的熱能，火載量越高基本上就易燃，因為難處理，所以它是比工廠還高，而且不只高一點點，高4到5倍啊！如果今天都願意基於工輔法修正，基於危險物品的申報，大家希望可以日漸完善的話，我覺得倉儲相關的管理規範，也不能置外於這樣子法案修正，按照過去政府的規定裡面有提到「倉儲」兩個字的，比如說農藥運輸倉儲管理辦法，這法條裡面規範的是農藥不是倉儲，對不對？"],["王部長美花：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：相關也都是類似這樣子的一個概念，像自由貿易港區的部分也是一樣，肥料、土地的倉儲，都是法條裡面的文字，從來沒有針對整個倉儲業遇到的產業困境，遇到的消防法規、危險物申報等等，都沒有一個統一的規範，我覺得這是不對的，因為按照災損比例來講，它幾乎跟工廠是一樣的，它的風險比工廠還高，所以我希望經濟部針對這個部分趕快來做一個研討，你們當然講到要跨部會，也需要中央、地方積極協力合作，但是我覺得這個項目要獨立出來被討論，有專門的法律來做規定，針對環保、針對消防恐怕才是對這個業界建立秩序一個比較積極的作法。"],["王部長美花：我們在跨部會討論的時候，事實上對倉儲的管理，內政部是有一個子法、行政命令在管，但是我覺得比較重要的是怎麼落實，要求他事先做好防範，然後要申報，我覺得應該是這個部分。"],["牛委員煦庭：它畢竟也是經濟行為的一環，所以我是覺得經濟部也是要考量的。"],["王部長美花：這個我們會邀請相關部會討論看看這個要怎麼去強化管理。"],["牛委員煦庭：一個月內提一個報告，可以嗎？在你卸任之前，留個好身影，好嗎？"],["王部長美花：好。謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝，辛苦了。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員的發言。接下來我們請鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱，鍾佳濱委員不在。","請陳冠廷，陳冠廷，陳冠廷委員不在。","登記發言的委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束；另外有陳超明委員所提書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報；書面質詢和未及答復的部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-9","speakers":["邱議瑩","黃建賓","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林思銘","林岱樺","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)本院\n委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及\n第三十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":0.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.007843750000003,"end":14.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.184718750000002,"end":16.028468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.00221875,"end":23.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.42346875,"end":27.672218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.54471875,"end":37.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.64534375,"end":62.687843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.143468750000004,"end":69.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.97784375,"end":73.48784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.43284375,"end":79.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.28846875,"end":89.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.02221875000001,"end":83.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.21096875,"end":94.14284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.78409375000001,"end":126.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.54284375,"end":99.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.91409375,"end":145.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.96471875,"end":127.85909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.73159375,"end":134.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.64534375,"end":152.42909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.90159375000002,"end":153.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.59346875,"end":161.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.94659375,"end":165.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.81534375,"end":168.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.24096875,"end":170.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.58659375000002,"end":170.99159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.95346875,"end":174.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.97409375,"end":212.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.97659375,"end":213.53346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.61784375000002,"end":216.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.06034375000002,"end":217.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.12346875,"end":239.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.64159375000003,"end":223.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.74471875,"end":273.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.48596875,"end":248.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.73034375,"end":251.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.51971875000004,"end":317.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.15471875000003,"end":315.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.70284375,"end":331.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.47721875,"end":334.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.50221875,"end":333.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.39659375,"end":338.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.69534375,"end":342.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.61909375000005,"end":340.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.67784375,"end":344.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.82096875,"end":344.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.97284375000004,"end":345.54659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.342,"end":27.51,"text":"發言 。」好,謝謝主席。經濟部長有請。來,請王部長。好,委員好。是。不好意思,我們看一下投影片。"},{"start":33.561,"end":61.45,"text":"好沒關係部長我們先開始討論這樣節省會議的時間這個今天要討論的是這個工輔法的一個修正對不對當然工輔法是時間很長然後大家也針對各個法條去提出讓這個法案越加完善比如說這一次有講違反危險物品的申報義務的處罰條款的增列工廠這個加保僱主意外責任險它其實是逐步讓工廠管理輔導法事件完善但是本期今天要提一個"},{"start":63.832,"end":78.447,"text":"這個應該是經濟部我覺得應該早就要開始的一個案子就是有關於倉儲的管理啊這個部長我們的倉儲應該也算是經濟產業的一環對不對倉儲如果是物流業那物流業也是一環是"},{"start":80.659,"end":82.12,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關"},{"start":95.05,"end":98.293,"text":"跟委員報告事實上倉儲的問題我們有做過跨部會的討論那因為倉儲它所在地區有的在一般區域其實有一些在特定區那所以它其實規管的會有不同的單位這是第一個那第二個倉儲業者一定也要受到消防法的規範所以消防裡面其實就有規定說你在裡面有危險的物品有多少量以上也都要申報"},{"start":122.27,"end":139.165,"text":"也都要管理,那這個就歸地方政府應該要去查查。」不是喔,這個喔,我們都希望就是說不管你是修公服法也好或是其他都是希望避免這個降低災損嘛,避免要造成經濟上的一些影響。不過部長如果你有留意啊,就是這個產業最害怕的其實就是火災嘛。"},{"start":139.565,"end":161.071,"text":"除了停電之外,停電很多人問過你了,我今天就不問你了。我們今天拍到火災嘛,對不對?那火災的時候這幾次大型的火災上全國關注的,包含美孚倉儲啊、PC Home的林口倉庫跟家樂福,其實都是倉儲啊。那難道他不應該被特案的來做檢討嗎?部長知不知道這個倉儲的火災佔各種火災發生的比例大概有多少?"},{"start":162.629,"end":188.65,"text":"這個我倒沒有特別去統計過有人相關的那個負責的單位要不要救援一下你們有研究這件事嗎沒有特別統計對這個都有地方的消防單位在做統計是啊按照這個110年的消防統計年報當然住宅的火災比例當然是最高的然後再營業場所這是因為數量母體數量的關係但是部長看一下作業場所也就一般大家認知的所謂的工廠在這個"},{"start":192.612,"end":216.04,"text":"總計411場火災,倉庫371件。」那這個不管是六都或非六都你都看得出來其實啊這個火災裡面倉庫佔總體大概我們講排除住宅排除商業啊也就是大家講的這個製造業的這一塊裡面來講其實倉庫火災的數量大概就佔40%接近一半的比例啊那部長這難道我們不應該特別針對這個地方去做一個檢討嗎"},{"start":218.211,"end":224.336,"text":"我覺得這個部分我們在跨部會的時候而且也確實像委員講桃園發生了幾件那我這個部分我再請我們的同仁跟消防署跟地方政府我們看對這個倉儲的這個部分因為它確實裡面會燜燒的問題那怎麼樣做更好的管理這個我來跟幾個單位來一起討論因為這個倉儲因為本身堆放大量的貨物它會活載量"},{"start":243.692,"end":244.233,"text":"負責管理負責管理負責管理負責管理"},{"start":260.856,"end":282.86,"text":"那我覺得倉儲的相關的管理規範也不能置外於這樣子的法案修正啦那按照過去的這政府裡面這個有提到倉儲兩個字比如說農藥運輸倉儲在法條裡面只是規範的是農藥不是倉儲相關的都是一些類似這樣子的一個概念所以這個自由貿易港區也是一樣肥料土地都是講倉儲是法條裡面的文字從來沒有針對整個倉儲業"},{"start":286.641,"end":305.655,"text":"遇到的產業困境遇到的消防法規危險物申報等等沒有一個統一的規範這我覺得是不對的啦因為按照災損比例來講他其實幾乎是跟工廠是一樣的他的風險是比工廠還高的所以我希望經濟部在這邊趕快來做個研討啦針對這你們當然講他跨部會也需要中央地方來積極協力合作但是我覺得這個這個這個項目要獨立出來被討論有專門的法律來做規定針對環保針對這個消防"},{"start":314.482,"end":317.544,"text":"恐怕才是對這個業界建立秩序比較積極的做法了。」"},{"start":344.745,"end":345.454,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案。"}]}},{"id":"151681","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151681","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb39321b1a00093f136a8d86c0863c2f2caeadb1108e4b8443272011da6d2d527785ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:58:10 - 12:02:54","影片長度":"00:04:44","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案。\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員黃建賓等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-9"},"duration":284,"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:02:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:58:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":836,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（11時58分）主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["羅委員智強：部長，請問臺灣人是刁民嗎？臺灣人是不是刁民？"],["王部長美花：沒有。"],["羅委員智強：當然不是嘛！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["羅委員智強：滑3C的人就不可以抱怨停電嗎？滑3C的人可不可以抱怨停電？"],["王部長美花：我們在講的這個新聞稿……"],["羅委員智強：不可以啦！你依照台電的邏輯不可以啦！"],["王部長美花：我們不是這個意思。"],["羅委員智強：對不對？滑3C的人怎麼可以對我們台電指指點點呢？我這邊跟部長說，不管你的看法是什麼，台電是專業單位，不要變成段宜康嗆選民上身啦！這種嗆選民的方式非常不好。當然我回頭要講，我要就教部長，台電之所以發那個新聞稿，你知道嗎？你看過嗎？滑3C的不能抱怨停電，你看過這新聞稿嗎？"],["王部長美花：我事先沒有看到。"],["羅委員智強：你沒看過嘛！你看過會讓它出去嗎？會不會讓它出去，部長？"],["王部長美花：因為這個新聞稿我事前沒有看到。"],["羅委員智強：沒關係啦！我再問你下一個問題，我知道台電的邏輯是什麼啦！就經濟部一直在告訴大家，你們這些刁民有什麼好抱怨的，停電次數比起8年前已經少很多了，對不對？停電次數少很多，停電其實改善很多，這是你們邏輯嘛！對不對？是不是，部長？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["羅委員智強：是喔？好，我們來看看今天我們的美花統計學是怎麼算法，我想請教我們的美花部長，大安區4月18號停電772戶，在你們停電裡面算停電幾次？"],["王部長美花：那要看有沒有超過一分鐘，我們是以超過一分鐘……"],["羅委員智強：超過一分鐘，一小時啦！"],["王部長美花：超過一分鐘，我們就會算一次。"],["羅委員智強：一次嘛？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["羅委員智強：前天我們成功國宅兩波停電，485戶，你算幾次？超過一分鐘，一小時啦！"],["王部長美花：一個故障造成的，我們就算一次。"],["羅委員智強：一次嘛！然後27戶的成功國宅後來一個小時後又停電了，算幾次？停電一整個下午。"],["王部長美花：要看有沒有……"],["羅委員智強：也是一次嘛！27戶算一次嘛！772戶算一次嘛！485戶算一次嘛！我想請教你，2017年815停電影響多少戶？停了多少戶？"],["王部長美花：815確實是比較大面積的停電。"],["羅委員智強：停了592萬戶！算幾次？算幾次？"],["王部長美花：那一個就是那一個大事故。"],["羅委員智強：就算一次嘛！懂了吧！各位，懂美花統計學了吧！為什麼今天停電改善好棒棒啊？2021年513事件影響多少戶？多少戶停電？"],["王部長美花：確實是比較大。"],["羅委員智強：462萬戶啊！也算一次啦！517停電影響100萬戶也算一次啦！2022年303停電，549萬戶也算一次啦！你們的統計學非常棒啦！27戶停電算一次，然後500萬戶停電也算一次啦！"],["王部長美花：我們的報告裡面其實都有清楚跟大家講。"],["羅委員智強：我要再請問部長，真正民眾感受到的是每年我到底停了幾分鐘比較精確嘛！對不對？停了多少次，每年每戶停了多少次嘛！我跟你講台電的數字，我直接唸出來給大家聽，看到底有沒有改善。2016年，就是政黨輪替前，每戶停電的時間幾分鐘，部長？16分鐘，沒錯吧？對不對？你台電的資料，16.274啊！我想請問你2022年停電幾分鐘？"],["蔡副總經理志孟：2022如果是台電的資料，應該是14或15分鐘。"],["羅委員智強：非常好，14分鐘，因為你扣掉303的549萬戶啦！549萬戶算進去，停電是高達91分鐘，沒錯吧？台電資料啦！"],["蔡副總經理志孟：跟委員報告，國際上的統計它還是有……"],["羅委員智強：加起來是106分鐘啦！我告訴你，106分鐘比起2016年的16分鐘是6.6倍啦！台電好棒棒啦！認知作戰統計學啦！拿這個東西騙人，還可以去酸臺灣人民是刁民，你們統計學真的非常棒啦！以上。"],["王部長美花：台電沒有騙人。"],["主席：好，謝謝，謝謝部長。","接下來請王美惠、王美惠，王美惠委員不在。","林楚茵、林楚茵，林楚茵委員不在。","黃建賓、黃建賓，黃建賓委員不在。","請牛煦庭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-9","speakers":["邱議瑩","黃建賓","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林思銘","林岱樺","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)本院\n委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及\n第三十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.544718750000001,"end":7.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.69221875,"end":8.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.070968750000002,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.724718750000001,"end":18.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.77471875,"end":20.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.27659375,"end":22.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.95159375,"end":23.200343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.91346875,"end":22.930343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.01471875,"end":23.031593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.04846875,"end":23.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.80784375,"end":26.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.840968750000002,"end":29.680343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.27096875,"end":33.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.59971875,"end":33.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.79784375,"end":33.814718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.89909375,"end":35.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.99159375,"end":36.548468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.548468750000005,"end":40.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.492843750000006,"end":43.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.00721875,"end":45.509093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.20096875,"end":48.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.03596875,"end":51.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.579718750000005,"end":54.284093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.82409375,"end":56.899718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.87846875,"end":59.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.24096875,"end":61.000343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.31659375,"end":62.46846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.46846875000001,"end":62.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.53596875,"end":62.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.55284375,"end":62.603468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.603468750000005,"end":63.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.17721875,"end":66.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.97409375000001,"end":68.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.10471875,"end":70.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.42909375,"end":72.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.91409375,"end":75.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.68596875,"end":75.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.03596875000001,"end":87.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.96659375,"end":92.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.94471875,"end":96.28596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.53534375000001,"end":94.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.88534375,"end":95.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.36596875000001,"end":101.50034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.85471875,"end":104.48721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.63471875,"end":111.62534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.73909375000001,"end":120.68721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.62471875000001,"end":117.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.53971875,"end":120.50159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.88971875000001,"end":126.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.62284375,"end":128.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.53409375,"end":133.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.63909375,"end":133.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.86659375000002,"end":142.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.94596875000002,"end":139.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.13096875000002,"end":153.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.79159375,"end":158.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.13721875000002,"end":159.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.02284375000002,"end":160.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.96346875,"end":162.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.80721875,"end":164.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.81534375,"end":165.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.73909375000002,"end":166.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.75596875000002,"end":171.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.02096875,"end":175.22721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.76721875,"end":176.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.55596875,"end":179.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.04096875000002,"end":180.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.53846875000002,"end":182.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.2597187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law."},{"start":58.296,"end":69.809,"text":"臺電之水發那個新聞稿你知道嗎?你看過嗎?華山溪的不能抱怨停電啊!你看過嗎?這新聞稿?我事先沒有看到你沒看過嗎?你看過會讓他出去嗎?"},{"start":71.522,"end":92.274,"text":"會不會讓他出去?部長因為這個新聞稿我是...沒關係啦沒關係啦我跟你講我再向你問一下一個問題我知道台電的邏輯是什麼啦就經濟部一直在告訴大家你們這些刁民有什麼好抱怨的停電次數比起這個八年期已經少很多了嘛對不對停電次數少很多嘛停電其實改善很多嘛這是你們的邏輯嘛對不對是不是部長是是齁好來告訴你齁"},{"start":97.418,"end":125.059,"text":"我們來看看今天我們的美花統計學是怎麼算法我想請教那個我們的美花部長大安區4月18號停電772戶在你們停電裡面算停電幾次那要看有沒有超過一分鐘我們是要超過一分鐘超過一分鐘我們就會算一次然後前天我們成功國宅兩撥停電485戶你算幾次超過一分鐘"},{"start":127.677,"end":135.921,"text":"一小時一整個下午也是一次嘛27戶算一次嘛772戶算一次嘛485戶算一次嘛我想請教你2017年815停電影響多少戶停了多少戶"},{"start":155.144,"end":176.193,"text":"八一五確實是比較大面積的停電。停了592萬戶!算幾次?算幾次?那個就是那個大事故。就算一次嘛!懂了吧?各位!懂美化統計學吧?為什麼今天停電改善好棒棒啊?2021年513事件影響多少戶?多少戶停電?"},{"start":178.151,"end":187.117,"text":"確實是比較大462萬戶也算一次517停電影響100萬戶也算一次2022年303停電549萬戶也算一次你們的統計學非常棒27戶停電算一次然後呢500萬停電也算一次我要再跟請問部長"},{"start":202.918,"end":221.696,"text":"真正民眾感受到是說每年我到底停了幾分鐘比較精確嘛對不對停了多少次嘛每戶每年每戶停了多少次嘛那我跟你講台電數字喔我直接跟大家念出來給大家聽到底有沒有改善2016年號就正常輪替前啦停電每戶停電的時間幾分鐘部長16分鐘沒錯吧"},{"start":228.271,"end":232.052,"text":"檯電資料16.274我請問你2022年停電幾分鐘?非常好14分鐘因為你扣掉303的549萬戶啦算進去549萬戶停電是高達91分鐘啦沒錯吧台電資料吧"},{"start":254.033,"end":259.096,"text":"加起來是106分鐘啦我告訴你106分鐘比起2016年的16分鐘是6.6倍啦台電好棒棒啦認知作戰統計學啦然後這個東西騙人還可以去酸台灣人民是刁民你們統計學真的非常棒啦你知道嗎"},{"start":281.923,"end":283.911,"text":"負責任負責任負責任負責任負責"}]}},{"id":"151680","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151680","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3bdcf8ee07e3692f2e793a383c05d564ceadb1108e4b84432cbfaccc57ef64b895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:55:44 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12:02:20","影片長度":"00:06:36","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案」案。二、審查本院委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查行政院函請審議「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1"},"duration":396,"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:02:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:55:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":673,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時55分）我們請部長。"],["主席：部長請。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長你好。"],["邱部長國正：吳委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：部長，其實我多次公開不管是受訪或什麼場合，都有說你是我非常敬佩的一位部長。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：至少在目前內閣中，我覺得非常欣賞的是部長。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員宗憲：在上次質詢的時候，我跟部長請教過關於國軍自殺人數的問題。昨天又有一件不幸的事情發生，部長應該知道是哪一件吧！"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：我現在想請教，上一次我質詢時提到，近年來國軍自傷的人數有在往上增長，接下來，我國又因為要因應一些國際局勢的問題或兩岸局勢的問題，今年開始把義務役的時間延長為1年，可預期的自傷的部分可能也會增加。我想請教一下，目前國防部到底有沒有依據監察院之前的建議，引入外部專業輔導跟精神醫療資源？"],["邱部長國正：我跟委員報告，任何一個自裁案件對單位、對家庭來講都是滿遺憾的事情，我們國軍很注意這一塊，但目前能夠做到怎麼樣？就是一旦案件發生以後，我們從內部開始檢討、從外部檢討，然後也會就其階級單位、服務單位做一個類比。我們概略得到幾個數據，只是不便在這邊這樣貿然講出來，因為可能造成外界誤解軍方在推責任。但我跟委員報告，軍中絕對不推責任。","第二是強化措施，剛剛很多委員也有指導。關於心輔人員，不是隨便派一個人就可以做心輔的，這點我們也一步一步在改進、在強化、在教育訓練，讓心輔人員願意投入軍中。我們一點一點在強化，但要馬上看到什麼成就的話，我想也要經年累月地、透過多方面管道共同輔導，以便軍中戰力能夠維持下去。"],["吳委員宗憲：是。"],["邱部長國正：跟委員多講一點，事實上，依我看，現在年齡層真的很低。當然我不瞭解年輕人，我也不怪罪年輕人什麼「草莓族」，我不會！一定有原因，我們要很坦誠地去面對而且強化我們的防範措施，這是我一定要努力的。"],["吳委員宗憲：是。剛剛我們講的是理想嘛！但目前部裡與衛福部或相關單位有沒有進行一些研議、現在有進度嗎？"],["邱部長國正：有的，現在就是除了三層管道以外，到第二層就要準備了，就要找部外人員啦！以我目前瞭解，衛福部有很多這種心輔人員，我們也跟他們合作、簽訂文件，看看國軍在哪個區塊、要到哪個地方去接受心輔治療。這是資源共用嘛！而且既然大家都很專業的話，我也希望從他們身上幫助我們國軍一點，把自傷防治工作給做好。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝部長。最後我想提幾點，因為上一次我在質詢時提到有幾點希望部裡可以考量一下。針對九三軍人節，可不可以跟內政部溝通，當天思考一下全國放假？就是全國放假一天。對於軍人、以前捐軀的將士，我覺得我們對他們應該還是有很多感激跟尊敬，也要讓人民知道軍人的重要性以及軍人對於國家的價值。","第二點是戰鬥部隊。我上次也有提到，對於戰鬥部隊，建議應該加薪，是不是能夠考量？我有個建議，就是對於戰鬥部隊應該考量其加薪是不是可以最多萬元？如果是其他單位加給，也應該有6,000到8,000元，我覺得比較符合通膨以及這些部隊人員該有的薪資。","還有一個希望部長思考的，就是我覺得應該精進義務役入伍的流程。因為我們常聽到外面很多人講他們等待入伍的時間非常地長，而且因為這段時間很長，會耽誤到他的計畫。這個時間說長不長，但是說短也不短，結果他本身原本有的計畫什麼都不能做，譬如說他要創業、要去公司上班、上了班又卡了一段很長的入伍時間，所以變得很麻煩，在入伍前的等待時間對很多人來說可能會不知道要做什麼，只能每天晃來晃去、浪費掉了。所以很多人一直希望我們到立法院跟部長做這個說明，希望能夠把入伍流程精進，減少他們等待入伍的時間。而且，當他們在部隊的時候，我也希望儘量讓他們能夠學習一些技能，把將來民間專長與服役期間加以結合，讓他們在部隊的時間不但能同時報效國家，也在精進技能。譬如說汽修科、飛機維修，他們在部隊的同時，也能不停精進他們的技術，我想這對國家或對個人都是很好的事情。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["吳委員宗憲：這點再麻煩部長。"],["邱部長國正：報告委員，您提的意見都是很具體的，事實上，國軍也有一些作為，但大家大概沒有廣為宣傳。委員提的這些議題都很貼切，我會請業管人員釐出來、要很清楚，不但可以跟委員報告，而且可以讓所有要服役的年輕人都知道，這樣可以摒除他們好像需要等待等疑慮。其實都有管道的，包括提前因應、要怎麼樣作業與作業流程，我們都會把它具體化。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，再給我們一份書面資料。"],["邱部長國正：是，好的。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["邱部長國正：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳宗憲召委。部長請回。","已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢，報告及詢答結束。","本日會議有莊瑞雄委員、鍾佳濱委員、陳培瑜委員、陳永康委員、傅崐萁委員、沈發惠委員提出書面質詢，請列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面於兩周內答復聯席會各委員，並副知聯席會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","林楚茵","沈伯洋","黃國昌","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳永康","陳俊宇","羅智強","林思銘","洪申翰","翁曉玲","陳冠廷","吳思瑤","林憶君","鄭天財Sra 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後我想說我提幾個,因為上一次在質詢的時候我有提到,有幾個我希望說部裡可以考量一下,就是九三軍人節可不可以跟內政部溝通,當天可不可以全國"},{"start":220.842,"end":225.403,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具:「軍人權益事件處理法草案案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":243.127,"end":248.549,"text":"事件處理法草案案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":267.597,"end":280.334,"text":"我覺得精進義務役入伍的流程因為我們常有聽到外面有很多人講說他們在等待入伍的時間他時間非常的長那因為他這個時間很長他會耽誤到他的計畫因為他這個時間"},{"start":282.737,"end":284.519,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":299.654,"end":320.642,"text":"這將變成說是入伍前的那個等待時間對他們很多人來說可能是不知道要做什麼那可能就每天晃來晃去浪費了所以很多人他們一直希望說我們到立法院來然後跟部長做這個說明希望說我們能夠把入伍流程能夠精進然後減少他們等待入伍的時間"},{"start":322.003,"end":323.065,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":337.125,"end":338.486,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具"},{"start":357.842,"end":382.717,"text":"都很好的事情,那我這個再麻煩部長。是,報委員您提的意見都是很具體的,事實上我們國際委員會作為大概就想說沒有很大家廣為宣傳,但事實上委員提的這些議題都很貼切,我請我們月管人員把一個禮儀出來很清楚,不但跟委員報告,而且可以讓所有要服役的年輕人都知道"},{"start":383.297,"end":385.661,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"}]}},{"id":"151679","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151679","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb363cb2b73d98f2dc35a1f541440a910baeadb1108e4b84432da25f9f11a3780b45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:54:23 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12:02:02","影片長度":"00:07:39","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案4案。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":459,"end_time":"2024-04-24T12:02:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:54:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":803,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時54分）謝謝主席，本席想邀請主委。"],["主席：好，我們請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委好，我們討論過日本政府在110年4月份宣告福島核電廠氚廢水的問題，112年開始排放。日本東京電力也在4月19號再次啟動排放入海的計畫，預計要排放7,800噸核廢水，持續到5月7號，也就是從去年的8月份到現在，它是第五輪的排放，今年度則是首度。所以本席想要請問，因為東電也曾經說最快要到2051年才能夠排放完畢。哇！民眾一聽到這個就很緊張，甚至連魚的進口商都受影響，因為沒有人敢買，會擔心會不會有問題，而且時間那麼長，從2021年到2051年，所以對於他們排放的時間點，我方有沒有掌控？這樣的排放對於我方……我們跟日本的交流都非常好，你們有沒有做什麼樣的討論以保障我們人民的權益跟海洋的權益？請做說明。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝楊委員，這是非常好的問題，也藉這個機會跟委員稍微說明，它是從去（112）年8月24日第一次排放，按照日本的財年，是去年到今年的3月多……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：過程本席非常清楚，也就是要請教……"],["陳主任委員東陽：它排了四次，每一次大約都是7,800噸，今年4月以後會排7次，每一次也大概是7,800噸，委員詢及我們跟日本有沒有什麼相關的掌握，其實我們跟日本NRA即日本的原子力規制委員會（相當於我們的核安會）有合作協議、合作備忘錄，大概是從2014年開始，我們每年都有派人互訪，我們核安會在駐日代表處也有一位專責的人員負責核能、輻安方面的資訊。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：換句話說，有掌控、有溝通管道？"],["陳主任委員東陽：完全有。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，本席要請教，對於我們的遠洋漁業，氚含量的檢測，我們是不是也有資訊的揭露？這非常重要喔！"],["陳主任委員東陽：有、有、有，包含北太平洋公海秋刀魚，我們過去都有在檢測，也有在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席要請教，我們國內針對生物氚檢測的實驗室，量能夠不夠？"],["陳主任委員東陽：量能最近有提升，去年9月27日行政院撥給我們預備金，有一個量能提升計畫，4,960萬元，檢測實驗室從國研院一家變成三家，我們輻射偵測中心跟高雄的……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以是有在增加量能，也代表以往我們的確量能不夠。"],["陳主任委員東陽：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：要用將近5,000萬的經費來做精進。"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：另外，針對碳-14跟碘-129的檢測，我們的檢測能力夠嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：今（113）年開始，在我們輻射偵測中心會有一個智慧監測站的計畫，每年900萬元，編4年，今年會先做碳-14，明年會做碘-129，這個技術上有一些難度，但其實它的風險沒有那麼高，因為我們呼應民眾跟立委的要求，所以我們去建置這樣的能量。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，因為民眾會害怕，國際也都已經有這樣的量能，預算部分我們也給了，也就是4年編列、每年900萬，我們也希望針對碳-14跟碘-129的部分，你們的建置要能跟世界接軌，然後我們有我們自己的量能，這樣才不會被欺負。要不然我們自己連監測都沒有，人家隨便亂排，這是我們非常緊張的一件事，所以這就是我們為什麼要給這些預算，你們辛苦了，趕快去建置，把它建置完成才能夠有保障。"],["陳主任委員東陽：好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要請教最後一個議題，你們核安會曾經要求台電滾動式的檢討處置技術的發展，包括集中式的貯存設施，當然你們沒有涉及到場址的選擇，這一直是非常備受爭議的一點。所以本席要來請教，你們要如何順利推動低放射性廢棄物的最終處置計畫？因為每一次本席在經濟委員會質詢這個，他就告訴我說：我們還要考慮最終場址是如何如何，但是實際上我們這邊還沒納入，那就是空談啊！怎麼辦？請說明。"],["陳主任委員東陽：低放廢棄物是應該要解決的問題，我們過去曾經在金門烏坵和臺東達仁選了兩個可能的地點，當然這需要公民投票，也遇到一些困難，所以才延遲到現在，其實這也牽扯到處理核廢料時，都會碰到一些民眾的抗爭、立委的關說等等問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席說你是空談。你們3年前推出非核家園推動小組，這也是本席提出這個問題的原因，就是政府不要空談。一個議題提出到現在已經3年，但是都沒有成果，有誰可以告訴民眾為什麼沒辦法做到？場址沒有辦法決定，有沒有什麼技巧、技術或方案？都沒有！這3年等於空轉，所以本席提出這個問題。","當然，這個問題的爭議很大，但本席認為民眾靠的是政府，政府應該要有所作為，場址沒有辦法決定，那世界各國有什麼技術？你們應該要去建置，就像剛才說的碘-129、碳-14檢測，世界各國都有了，如果我們還不建置，放任廠商隨便亂排，這樣怎麼可以呢？對不對？民進黨政府喊出「非核家園」，結果現在全部都是空談，本席不希望如此，你們應該要務實去做，好不好？加油。"],["陳主任委員東陽：好，謝謝楊委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員，主委請回。接下來請張委員啓楷發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葉元之","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","范雲","張嘉郡","吳春城"],"page_start":251,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會\n列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查 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這民眾一聽到就很緊張它現在連那個進口魚"},{"start":71.944,"end":98.818,"text":"進口商都受影響又沒有人敢買會不會有問題而且時間那麼長2021年到2051年所以對於他們排放的時間點我方有沒有掌控這樣的排放對於我方我們跟日本的交流都非常好你們有沒有怎麼樣討論保障我們人民的一個權益跟海洋的權益請做說明"},{"start":100.288,"end":120.835,"text":"謝謝楊委員 非常好的問題 也在這個機會跟委員稍微說明他是從去年112年8月24 第一次排放那他是按照日本的財年 是去年到今年的3月多過程本期非常清楚 也就是要請教所以他排4次 每次大約都是7800噸"},{"start":123.076,"end":146.718,"text":"今年就是4月以後會排幾次呢?會排7次每一次也大概是7800噸委員提到說我們跟日本有沒有什麼相關的掌握我們跟日本NRA就是日本的原子力規制委員會就相當於我們的核安會有合作協議合作備忘錄大概是2014開始"},{"start":148.88,"end":177.621,"text":"那麼我們每年都有派人赴訪那麼我們核安會也有在駐日的代表處有一位專責的人員負責核能、福安方面的知識、資訊所以換句話說有掌控、有溝通管道完全有那主委本期要請教對於我們的遠洋漁業呢穿含量它的檢測我們是不是也有資訊的揭露"},{"start":181.882,"end":191.155,"text":"包含北太平洋公海、秋刀魚我們過去都有在做檢測所以本期要請教我們國內針對於生物栓檢測的實驗室你的量能夠不夠?"},{"start":197.831,"end":214.016,"text":"量能最近提升去年9月27行政院給我們預備金有一個量能提升計畫4960萬檢測實驗室從國研院一家變成三家我們輻射偵測中心跟高雄的"},{"start":214.776,"end":221.202,"text":"所以是有在增加量能也代表以往的確我們也是不夠加進5000萬的經費來做精進那另外針對於碳14跟碾12的這個檢測我們的檢測能力夠嗎?"},{"start":231.923,"end":258.946,"text":"我們這個會有一個智慧監測站的計畫今年開始113年開始今年開始在我們輻射偵測中心每年900萬4年編4年今年會做先做碳14明年會做點129那麼這個技術上有一些難度但是呢它其實它的風險沒有那麼高因為我們呼應這個我們民眾跟立委的要求所以我們去建置這樣的能量"},{"start":260.507,"end":285.342,"text":"因為民眾會害怕那國際也都已經有這樣的量能所以我們預算也給也就是一年900萬那我們也希望針對於碳14跟碳129的部分你們的建制要跟世界接軌然後我們自己有我們自己的量能這樣才不會被欺負要不然我們自己連監測都沒有人家說"},{"start":286.403,"end":303.233,"text":"人家隨便給你亂排這是我們非常緊張的一件事情所以我們為什麼要給這些預算你們辛苦趕快去建置把建置完成能夠保障 好嗎接下來本期最後一個議題請教你們核安會曾經要求說台電滾動式的去檢討處置技術的發展"},{"start":306.255,"end":319.094,"text":"那所以包括集中式的儲存設施當然你們沒有涉及到長子的一個選擇這一點是大家都一直在非常爭議的那所以呢本席要來請教"},{"start":321.607,"end":336.231,"text":"你們要如何順利的去推動低放射性的這個廢棄物的最終處置計畫因為每一次本席在經濟委員會他都告訴我我們還要考慮最終場址是怎麼樣但是實際上我們這邊還沒納入那這空談啊那是怎麼辦請做說明"},{"start":340.99,"end":359.435,"text":"那個低放廢棄物那個這個是一個應該要做的問題應該要做的問題那麼我們過去曾經在這個金門的烏丘跟台東的達仁那麼有選了兩個可能的地點"},{"start":360.555,"end":382.127,"text":"那當然這是需要公民投票那麼也遇到一些困難所以延遲了到現在那麼這個其實也是牽扯到核廢料那麼他都會碰到一些民眾的抗爭立委的關說那這些問題所以我說你是空談嗎"},{"start":383.277,"end":411.815,"text":"你們在三年前爆出說非核家園推動小組三年前所以本席提出這個也就是說政府你不要空談你不要空談你一個議題到現在三年沒有成果有誰告訴我們民眾沒辦法沒辦法廠子沒有辦法決定有什麼技巧有什麼技術還是有什麼方案都沒有"},{"start":414.167,"end":433.093,"text":"這三年等於是零空轉所以本期之所以提出這個當然爭議很大但是我還是認為民眾靠的是政府政府應該是要有所作為你長子沒有辦法決定你的技術世界各國有什麼技術你們應該去撐就像剛剛碳129一樣"},{"start":438.041,"end":457.436,"text":"世界各國都有了如果我們還不建制隨便給你亂排那怎麼可以呢對不對所以你們喊了一個民進黨政府喊了一個什麼非核家園那你現在全部都空談全部都空談所以我本期不希望如此而是務實的去做好不好加油好 謝謝楊委員"}]}},{"id":"151678","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151678","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb33a010e3091112e8aa8d86c0863c2f2caeadb1108e4b84432fbd852016b6b286a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"11:52:21 - 11:58:04","影片長度":"00:05:43","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案。\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員黃建賓等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-9"},"duration":343,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:58:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:52:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":818,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（11時52分）好，我們請部長。"],["主席：來，請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：好！謝謝部長。","我先講一下，2021年的公投重啟核四就是不同意大於同意，這個就是現在的民意。","接下來講一下今天的重點，工輔法的修正還是非常重要，我在經濟部的報告裡面看到一個問題，就是去年屏東明揚大火造成4位消防員殉職，這當然是非常遺憾的消息，所以各部會都在想到底要怎麼改善，才可以避免憾事發生。其實明揚大火大家也找出最關鍵的兩個原因，一個就是因為明揚沒有如實申報危險物品，另外一個就是明揚沒有在第一時間提供正確的圖資，這兩個原因是非常、非常關鍵的。當然，這個圖資接下來就很重要，所以我看到環境部他們其實在第一時間就強化升級化學雲的功能，包括消防署、勞動部、環境部、經濟部的申報系統要馬上介接，讓消防員在火場第一線的時候可以馬上用這個化學雲工廠快報的功能，瞭解廠區經由你們各部會的申報系統，讓他們知道現場申報的不只是化學品的種類、數量、平面配置圖，這些資訊都要有，因為這個資訊權是非常非常重要的。接下來，平面的配置圖到底格式有沒有一致化就非常重要，但是我就看到，在經濟部公告的工廠危險物品的申報辦法裡面有一個平面配置圖的範例，你們的公告格式跟我們現在大家用的是完全不一樣的，給你看一下，這個是現在我們消防署應該要有的，就是GHS裡面的9大危險公告的物品在這裡，都一定要寫出來，可是看一下你們經濟部的配置圖，完全沒有，也就是說，你們經濟部提供的公告格式沒有辦法在第一線讓消防員來參考，我覺得這個問題蠻嚴重，雖然這對你們來說是一個小小的疏漏，但是對於火場的一線人員，這樣的資訊越完整、越一致，所有的東西都介接好，對他們來說才是最大的幫助。我看你們這個格式，其實你們上一次調整已經是十幾年前了，是這樣子嗎？如果是的話，你們這十幾年都沒有與時俱進，把基本該公告的9大類危險物品來跟大家說明，所以請教一下部長，我們現在的基本資訊到底出了什麼問題？"],["雲主任瑞龍：委員，簡單兩點來做說明，第一個部分是我們的一些機械……"],["黃委員捷：不好意思，請問你是哪一位？"],["雲主任瑞龍：我是工商輔導中心的主任雲瑞龍。兩點說明，第一個，在機械配置圖的部分，我們是在上次平鎮的敬鵬大火之後去做修正，所以修正時間是三、四年的時間，其實是我們配合上次大火之後去做的調整因應，這是第一點。第二個部分，你剛才有提到消防法規裡面的卡的部分，這是for消防法的部分，所以我們這兩個部分，這個資訊都會上傳到化學雲去，由化學雲去統籌做運用，那消防……"],["黃委員捷：所以不是像這張圖上面的，完全沒有修正嗎？"],["雲主任瑞龍：我跟委員報告，消防單位在出勤的時候，他會用這個化學雲去下載所謂的快報，這些快報就會把相關的資訊去做整合，就會提供給第一線的消防單位，所以資訊上面來講是相當的完整，以上報告。"],["黃委員捷：好，如果有任何疏漏的話，務必一定要確實。最後我講一下你們現在未合格的工廠稽查的狀況，因為其實在上一次明揚大火之後，你們也有成立一個專案小組來做專案的稽查，完成檢查的家數是737家，合格家數有685家，也就是說其實還有大概7%的工廠是未合格的，那接下來這7%到底要怎麼辦？可不可以跟我們說明一下你們後續怎麼輔導、追蹤，然後儘量達成百分之百的合格。因為不管是百分之一還是任何一家，只要再發生一件，我們都擔不起啦！"],["雲主任瑞龍：謝謝委員，剛才所提的七百多家是我們去年在兩千四百多家的業者裡面，我們配合消防單位去做聯合檢查，檢查出來之後確實有7%的業者不符合規定，這些不符合的規定大概有分成兩種樣態，第一個，它沒有按照期限來申報，第二個部分是它的申報不實，我們後續都有做逐案的追蹤跟管考，以上報告。"],["黃委員捷：好，真的非常重要，我再講一下，因為明揚的工廠最嚴重的就是他可能私自放了很大量的物品，但都沒有在他提供的資訊上面，所以消防員到現場完全不知道現場有這麼危險的化學品，這個一定要快點請他們改善，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是，我們在各部會就是在做這件事情。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員。主席宣告一下，我們中午不休息，延長開會時間。","接下來請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-9","speakers":["邱議瑩","黃建賓","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林思銘","林岱樺","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳亭妃","呂玉玲","賴瑞隆","邱志偉","鄭正鈐","謝衣鳯","蔡易餘","何欣純","黃國昌","洪孟楷","黃捷","羅智強","牛煦庭","陳超明","鍾佳濱","陳冠廷","王美惠"],"page_start":115,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等 21案；二、審查：\n(一)行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(二)本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(三)本院委員\n黃建賓等 17 人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(五)本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案、(六)\n本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案、(七)本院委員蔡易\n餘等20 人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)本院\n委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及\n第三十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.9334687500000003,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.21971875,"end":8.282843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.46846875,"end":9.396593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.31971875,"end":16.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.36159375,"end":25.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.17034375,"end":63.649718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.24034375000001,"end":122.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.84721875000001,"end":133.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.17471875,"end":137.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.15284375000002,"end":159.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.52909375000002,"end":165.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.35096875000002,"end":176.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.98221875000002,"end":182.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.85909375,"end":182.01096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.11221875,"end":182.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.87159375000002,"end":189.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.60909375,"end":190.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.73971875,"end":192.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.53659375,"end":203.54346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.28596875000002,"end":207.25596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.89721875,"end":222.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.32534375,"end":232.48409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.58971875,"end":235.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.05346875,"end":250.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.03409375,"end":250.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.84409375,"end":250.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.86096875,"end":250.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.96221875,"end":294.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.39846875,"end":319.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.47471875,"end":340.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.95659375,"end":342.96471875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.247,"end":9.349,"text":"二、審查：一）行政院函請審議:「工廠管理輔導第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":35.531,"end":62.926,"text":"有一個問題就是在去年這個屏東民洋大火造成四位的消防員殉職之後當然這是非常遺憾的消息所以我們各部會都在想說到底要怎麼改善才可以避免憾事發生那其實這個民洋大火大家也找出最關鍵的兩個原因一個就是因為民洋沒有如實的申報危險的物品另外一個就是民洋沒有在第一時間提供正確的圖資這兩個原因是非常非常關鍵的"},{"start":64.398,"end":67.38,"text":"一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案等21案等21案等21案等21案等21案等21案等21案等21"},{"start":80.667,"end":99.343,"text":"火場的第一線的時候可以馬上用這個化學雲的工廠快報的功能瞭解場區經由你們各部會的申報的系統讓他們知道說現場申報的不只是化學品的種類數量平面配置圖這些資訊都要有因為這個資訊權是非常非常重要的"},{"start":100.063,"end":121.99,"text":"所以接下來這個平面的配置圖到底格式有沒有一致化就非常重要但是呢我就看到說啊在我們經濟部公告的工廠危險物品的申報辦法裡面有一個平面配置圖的範例你們的公告的格式跟我們現在大家用的是完全不一樣喔"},{"start":123.251,"end":137.172,"text":"來給你看一下這個是現在我們消防署應該要有的就是GHS裡面的九大危險公告的物品在這裡都一定要寫出來可是看一下你們經濟部的配置圖完全沒有"},{"start":138.263,"end":165.428,"text":"也就是說你們經濟部提供的公告的格式沒有辦法在第一線讓消防員來參考我覺得這個問題蠻嚴重雖然這對你們來說是一個小小的疏漏但是對於火場的一線人員這樣的資訊越完整越一致所有的東西都借機好對他們來說才是最大的幫助喔那我看到你們這個格式啊其實你們上一次調整已經是十幾年前了"},{"start":166.454,"end":192.16,"text":"是這樣子嗎?如果是的話,你們這十幾年都沒有與時俱進,把基本該公告的九大類的危險物品來跟大家說明。所以請教一下部長,我們現在的這個基本的資訊到底出了什麼問題?委員簡單兩點來做說明。第一個部分是我們的一些機械撇測的部分。不好意思,請問你是哪一位?我是工商輔導中心的主任尹內隆。"},{"start":194.272,"end":206.959,"text":"兩點說明,第一個我們在機械配置土的部分我們是在上次民洋大火之後上次那個憑證的那個是憑證的大火就是巨棚大火之後"},{"start":207.952,"end":209.814,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":231.653,"end":234.494,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查一、三條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":251.181,"end":271.211,"text":"那如果有任何疏漏的話務必一定要確實那最後我講一下說你們現在這個未合格的工廠稽查的狀況因為其實在這個你們上一次民洋大火之後也有成立一個專案小組來來做專案的稽查那完成檢查的加數是737家那合格加數685家也就是說其實還有大概7%的工廠是未合格的"},{"start":278.135,"end":293.883,"text":"那接下來這七趴到底要怎麼辦可不可以跟我們說明一下你們接下來後續怎麼輔導追蹤然後讓他盡量達成百分之百的合格因為在不管是百分之一還是任何一家只要再發生一件我們都擔當不起啦"},{"start":294.743,"end":318.888,"text":"謝謝委員剛剛所提的那個700多家是我們去年在2400多家的業者裡面我們配合消防單位去做聯合的一個檢查那檢查出來之後確實有7%的業者他不符合規定這些不符合的規定大概有分成兩種樣態第一個他沒有按照期限來申報第二個部分是他的申報不實我們後續都有做主案的列中列案的一個追蹤跟管好以上報告"},{"start":319.488,"end":340.262,"text":"好,真的非常重要,我再講一下,因為那個民洋的工廠最嚴重的就是他可能私自放了很大量的物品都沒有在他提供的資訊上面所以這個消防員到現場他完全不知道現場有這麼危險的化學品這個一定要快點去請他們改善好不好是,我們在各部會就是在做這件事情好,謝謝好,謝謝黃捷委員"}]}},{"id":"151677","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151677","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb357431ea4ce10da6d7e796690f3f0abb2eadb1108e4b844322153524cdbbb34395ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:40:58 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11:57:03","影片長度":"00:16:05","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運用以降低基層司法體系負擔之成效與精進期程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-16"},"duration":965,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:57:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:40:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":735,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時41分）謝謝主席！在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請司法院吳秘書長、民事廳周廳長、人事處陳處長還有法務部的蔡部長。"],["主席：請吳秘書長和蔡部長。"],["蔡部長清祥：委員好！"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長好！部長好！廳長好！處長好！先請教秘書長，剛剛有委員問到2016年賴浩敏前院長跟蘇永欽前副院長向蔡英文總統辭職一事，請問他們是因應著什麼樣的情況去表達此意？是因為政黨輪替還是因為新總統就任？還是什麼原因？"],["吳秘書長三龍：當時雖然在5月份的時候有黨團提出訴求……"],["鍾委員佳濱：哪個黨團？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是時代力量。"],["鍾委員佳濱：時代力量黨團提出一個訴求？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是希望說5月有一個交接，希望……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是5月有個交接，希望這兩位，院長、副院長辭職？"],["吳秘書長三龍：就是5月份的時候，但是當時的司法院長賴浩敏院長是在7月11號才請辭，總統沒有馬上處理，就是要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：他為什麼請辭？是因為新總統就任？"],["吳秘書長三龍：並不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他是因為什麼請辭？"],["吳秘書長三龍：他的任期到10月31號屆滿，所以他……"],["鍾委員佳濱：是任期將屆請辭啦！"],["吳秘書長三龍：他的任期將屆，但是總統是在他任期將屆之前4天即10月27號才准辭。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以並沒有所謂的因為時代力量黨團提出新總統就任，要建立憲政慣例，所以要求司法院正副院長向新任總統或向原任命總統請辭，沒有啦！"],["吳秘書長三龍：沒有慣例，所以賴浩敏院長是到任期滿，即10月31號任期滿他才離職。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝！很清楚了，這個歷史不能夠錯亂。","接下來我先請教一下，保單遭強制執行數量暴增的問題，我之前在財政委員會也有問到，請問廳長，是不是從2022年開始有這個情況？"],["周廳長玫芳：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這是不是造成我們法院很大的一個工作壓力？"],["周廳長玫芳：對執行處變成是一個比較大的壓力，且集中在台北地院跟士林地院。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這兩個地院特別嚴重？"],["周廳長玫芳：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我要請教蔡部長，關於這一點，我問過了保險局，也問過了金管會，他們說他們曾經提出修正行政執行法的方式來解決這個問題，我先解釋一下什麼是強制執行保單。就是要保人因為有欠債，而他有個保單在保險公司，債權人要求保險公司把他的保單解約，以這個保單的解約金或準備金來抵付債務，所以就聲請強制執行，部長瞭解了嗎？"],["蔡部長清祥：這是民事強制執行還是刑事強制執行……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你是負責刑事強制執行，那行政執行法的主責單位是哪裡？是你啊！"],["蔡部長清祥：依據行政執行法是因為他欠的是公家的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，包括欠稅也是。"],["蔡部長清祥：欠稅或是欠罰款才是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：金管會是希望你們修行政執行法，把這個改一下，不要讓這些保單的受益人因此而失去他的權益，你覺得是應該修保險法還是修行政執行法？"],["蔡部長清祥：我想都可以考慮。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都可以考慮？"],["蔡部長清祥：如果說可以來合理化……"],["鍾委員佳濱：願意配合？再請教秘書長，針對這一點，我們有提出說為了避免殺雞取卵，因為保單的解約金可能完全無法抵付債權，可是受益人就因此憑空損失了，包括他的癌症險以及他的一些健康險等，都因為主約被解約使得附約也連帶消失了。有人提出用介入權的方式讓受益人可以介入來償付解約金，對這樣的一個修法方向，司法院支持嗎？"],["周廳長玫芳：關於這一個部分，因為涉及整個保險政策的問題，如果要做改變的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果金管會要做這個改變，修正保險法，提出自行介入權，你們支持嗎？"],["周廳長玫芳：如果在保險法裡面做改變，我們很尊重。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝！因為民事案件執行量大增，我們現在要與金管會保險局和壽險公會來協調統一格式、流程，以降低執行法院的壓力，你同意嗎？在修法之前先做這個事情，願不願意？"],["周廳長玫芳：對這個部分，我們已經在啟動這樣的機制。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，謝謝！部長跟廳長兩位請回座，這一題問完我們開始今天正式要提出的質詢。我再請教一下秘書長，有一個叫做圖靈測試，目的是要區分回答者是人還是機器人。請問秘書長，你覺得法官是人類還是判決產生器？這很簡單吧？"],["吳秘書長三龍：那當然是人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當然是人類，對不對？我們來看一下，司法官的養成要相當長的時間，以法官來說，要相當長的時間，但是科技的成長跟引入相對的快，所以就我們要解決目前積案案量來說，您覺得調整法官的員額或培養來得比較迅速，還是透過科技的引進比較能夠適應我們環境上的壓力？很難回答？"],["吳秘書長三龍：那當然要還是要從人倫來思考。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，但是培養人要比較長的時間嘛！我們現在看的這個圖就很有意思，30年來，我們的民事案件增長了6倍，就是藍色這個長條圖；我們的刑事案件是紅色的長條圖；綠色線條顯示的是民事月均辦結案，它在2007年、2006年到一個高峰後，啪的跳水一般就躺平了。至於我們的刑事月均辦結數則是從頭到尾像心臟停止一樣平平的一條線，如果以目前這樣的一個月均辦結數比照現在的民事跟刑事的成長，你覺得有解方嗎？民事新增了314萬件，刑事新增了45萬件。"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以未結案數就增加了96%。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是啊！你們能夠辦結的數就是躺平啦！數量增加率在上面，這是惡意濫訴，還是我們立法者重刑化，抑或案件複雜化造成的？"],["吳秘書長三龍：不管怎麼樣，法院是社會信賴的很重要的力量，所以法院被賦予各種要照料的事物愈來愈多，範圍也廣了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：隨著案量的提高，大家期待法院辦結的能力也能提高，但恰恰相反，直接躺平！為什麼？我們繼續往下看，我們常常說上游缺水保、下游土石流、人力永遠不夠用，你同意嗎？是不是從源頭案量的控管比較重要？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是，那個當然最重要，不然……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們底下提出這幾個方法，譬如說在刑事上加強行政處遇，在民事上透過律師的諮詢強化調解，在程序上加強審查，減少訴訟量，一審量少上訴量就能減少，你覺得這有沒有幫助？"],["吳秘書長三龍：一些有效率的方式應該都會有幫助。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你都支持？那我們來看一下，訴訟減量、行政減化已經部分上路了，你們有沒有做人力影響評估？成效如何？有沒有評估說你們現在所做的訴訟減量跟行政減化到底有沒有讓源頭的案量減少？你們有沒有評估過？"],["吳秘書長三龍：最主要原因是案源有時候我們無法控制。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們沒有控制怎麼知道如何解決？人家說對症下藥，你們今天看到案量一直成長，祭出了訴訟減量，祭出了行政減化，結果祭出了這些手法還是沒有把它壓下來，那你就對症沒有下藥啦！"],["吳秘書長三龍：所以就出了另外一種聲音要限量分案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當你們下了這個藥的時候，病情有沒有比較好或減少惡化，你們有沒有做這個評估？如果你沒有做這個評估又不斷的下藥、下藥，結果案量一直成長、成長，你怎麼知道哪個藥有效哪個藥沒有效？"],["吳秘書長三龍：最主要在司法機關也是很無奈呀！案源一直來啊！因為法令賦予要照料的事物很多。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長！我們用科學方法啦！你面對問題提出解方，解方有沒有使問題不繼續惡化也要評估嘛，對不對？請你們回去做評估。為了要減少訴訟，讓法官能專注審判核心業務，我們提出了透過包括智慧科技來形成筆錄，在確保資安的前提之下，讓調查意見資料能夠用摘要這個方式，還有簡化判決書、書狀格式化等建議，你認為這些有沒有幫助？"],["吳秘書長三龍：這些都會有幫助，尤其裁判書簡化這個事。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那就請你把這些措施引進之後，判斷一下有沒有因為這個措施的引進讓案源或案量稍微……不要說減少啦，至少成長不要那麼快。可不可以去做一個評估？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會評估。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們看下一個，法官不是機器人，合理的工作才有裁判品質，你們的司法周刊說要去衡量法官的工作案量、結案量對不對？"],["吳秘書長三龍：結案量。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下，結案100件跟結案10件，哪一個效率高？你認為結案100件跟結案10件的兩個法官誰的效率好？"],["吳秘書長三龍：那當然要合理的結案，品質才會好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是，那你們有沒有評估？你們目前只有一個量化的數字叫做結案量，這對法官壓力很大啊！有沒有分類？不同的案件可能需要不同的工作量，所以是不是應該用合理的工作分類來衡量一個合理的結案量，是不是這樣子？你們有做嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們明天就會舉行這樣一個會議……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們明天要舉行？還好本席今天問了，我問的你們明天就要做了，很好！所以請你們好好的落實，對不同案件的合理工作量做合理的評估而不是以單一的結案數量為準，是不是這樣？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後我們來看一下，我今天問的你們從明天開始就要做。要統計才有辦法估算人力需求，進而幫助法官減壓，那你們有辦法區分案件的複雜程度嗎？有辦法吧？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是可以，因為這個都會有一定的處理方式。"],["鍾委員佳濱：最後提到員額問題。其實我們剛剛講到了司法官，尤其是法官的培養要很長的時間，在一個司法院院長的任內，其實就算透過人總給你們員額，你們都不見得來得及補，對不對？我們來看一下，螢幕上的139,000還沒有改正，應該是目前你們的員額從13,900人變成15,000人，但其實整體中央政府的員額是減7%，司法院的員額則是從13,900人變成15,000人，增加了快8%，你覺得人總有沒有給予司法院較多的員額，讓你們解決問題？有沒有？"],["吳秘書長三龍：是因為我們現在的需求，像今天有提出一個表，要5,536人。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道啦！我是說從整體來看，其他小孩的零用金都減了，但給你的零用金是成長的，處長，你覺得人總在員額上有沒有不給司法院？"],["陳處長美彤：報告委員，這個要講到一個沿革，就是在108年底的時候修正總員額法，當時雖然從13,900人提高為15,000人，看起來是增加1,100人，但事實上當時司法院提出來需要請增的員額是22,068人，……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我了解。"],["陳處長美彤：評估後來的新制，果不其然，現在減縮為15,000人之後，接下來的各項新制如憲法、訴訟法、國民法官法、行政訴訟新制、商業事件審理法等等這一大堆新制，都增加我們法官的工作負擔，這1,100人現在證明……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是杯水車薪，對不對？"],["陳處長美彤：加上明年又要成立北部少家法院，然後……"],["鍾委員佳濱：處長你不用說得那麼上氣不接下氣的，我們都知道你們需求很大。但是今天整體中華民國中央政府員額是減7%的，所以我要說的是我們持平來論。整個中央政府總員額是在縮減的，但是給司法院的員額是提高的，只是提高的幅度還趕不上你的需求，這是你要講的，對不對？那我們往這方面來思考，除了實任法官之外，依法官法第七十七條還有優遇法官，請問優遇法官有沒有計入目前的員額？有沒有？"],["陳處長美彤：他有占員額，因為他還是有領人事費，是領三分之二。"],["鍾委員佳濱：法條規定是不計入該機關所定員額之內。"],["陳處長美彤：那是指不計入現有員額，但是他還是計入預算員額。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這就是一個問題了！所以未來我們是不是可以跟人總商量不要把優遇法官再計算在預算員額內？主管預算員額的是誰？是主計總處，對不對？"],["陳處長美彤：這還涉及到人事費用。"],["鍾委員佳濱：涉及人事費用？所以這個部分你們具體來提，你們會發現過勞的法官好像都是年輕人耶！我不是說有年齡歧視，但是年齡稍長的因為有優遇制度，比較不容易過勞，可是一樣占員額；如果他辦的案件少，我們還是給他優遇，因為憲法第八十一條規定法官是終身職，是不是這樣？所以過勞的都是年輕的法官，那我們沒辦法把這個員額……"],["吳秘書長三龍：過勞不分年齡啦！因為我看過太多年老的也是如此。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們秘書長終於還是幫忙同儕講話啦！"],["吳秘書長三龍：我70歲了，我知道服務……"],["鍾委員佳濱：你也很過勞啦！"],["吳秘書長三龍：而且看過那個年老的這個……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我說你們要設法從員額上的計算去跟人總argue，可不可以？去討論優遇法官是不是可以不計入你們的員額。"],["吳秘書長三龍：我們會儘量來爭取，也期盼人總今天的代表能帶回我們的聲音。"],["鍾委員佳濱：人總的代表，可以帶回去嗎？可以？點頭啦！","最後是我今天的結論，三管齊下─源頭的案源要減量；科技化協助分擔分流，讓法官抓到核心判決；合理評估工作量和結案量，預估未來的需求，這幾方面都很重要。所以我們最後有提出兩個要求：請司法院三個月內提出書面報告，合理評量各類案件所需的不同工作量，據以調配案量並評估未來的需求，可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請司法院衡量10年內優遇法官空出的員額，我可能還要再加一句「配合跟人事總處爭取」，併入未來整體的員額需求，並就法官跟書記官等為適當配置，三個月內提出書面報告。我要說明為什麼這樣要求，因為如果優遇法官的員額可以空出來，其實你要酌給一些書記官，因為書記官是沒有優遇的，他們很憂鬱，可是他們沒有辦法得到優遇，所以他們的員額是固定的，你們在分配的時候要多給一些，也減輕書記官的負擔。可以嗎？"],["吳秘書長三龍：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝！"],["吳秘書長三龍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾佳濱委員，謝謝秘書長，這是很大的工程，但是人力的部分還是要去解決啦。","接下來我們請翁曉玲翁委員質詢。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：我們先處理會議時間，上午會議繼續進行至所有登記發言委員詢答結束為止。","接下來我們就請翁委員。謝謝！"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","林思銘","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","賴士葆","傅崐萁"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運\n用以降低基層司法體系負擔之成效與精進期程」進行專案報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":1.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.388468750000001,"end":8.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.93659375,"end":11.084093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.320343750000003,"end":25.984718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.98971875,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.02346875,"end":22.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.22159375,"end":22.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.246593750000002,"end":24.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.28034375,"end":24.887843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.457218750000003,"end":26.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.47409375,"end":27.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.671593750000003,"end":35.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.57409375,"end":35.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.21534375,"end":37.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.033468750000004,"end":46.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.42034375,"end":49.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.69409375,"end":58.148468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.734718750000006,"end":64.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.62846875000001,"end":67.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.92784375000001,"end":66.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.90221875,"end":67.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.91909375,"end":67.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.07096875,"end":72.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.55971875,"end":79.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.82534375,"end":74.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.08659375,"end":76.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.52096875000001,"end":77.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.29284375,"end":79.83284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.50784375,"end":82.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.58346875000001,"end":84.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.60846875,"end":90.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.94534375,"end":89.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.97034375000001,"end":92.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.21471875,"end":95.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.10471875,"end":95.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.28596875000001,"end":96.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.42096875,"end":96.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.75846875,"end":96.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.79221875,"end":97.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.82596875,"end":97.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.14221875000001,"end":100.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.23034375,"end":101.58471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.04034375,"end":106.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.28034375,"end":106.41096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.96784375,"end":107.62596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.23784375000001,"end":115.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.67221875000001,"end":108.705968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所以我們來看一下司法官的養成要相當長的時間 以法官來說要這麼長的時間但是科技的成長跟引入相對的快所以就我們要解決目前的基案的案量您覺得法官 調整法官的緣額或培養來得比較迅速還是透過科技的引進比較能夠適應我們的環境上的壓力"},{"start":355.083,"end":355.483,"text":"很難回答來"},{"start":385.243,"end":385.423,"text":"主席"},{"start":403.513,"end":422.684,"text":"民事新增了314萬件 刑事新增了45萬件所以未結案就 未結案就增加96%啊是啊 你能夠辦結的就是躺平啦數量呢 增加的就在上面是惡意亂數還是我們立法者重型化還是案件複雜化造成的"},{"start":424.793,"end":445.574,"text":"法院在不管怎樣是社會信賴的很重要的力量所以法院就被賦予各種要照料的書越來越多大家期待法院能夠把案量隨著案量的提高能夠把它辦結的能力也提高範圍也廣了恰恰相反直接躺平"},{"start":446.397,"end":456.608,"text":"為什麼我們往下看我們常說上游缺水保下游土石流人力永遠不夠用你同意嗎是不是從源頭按量的控管比較重要"},{"start":460.97,"end":476.27,"text":"所以我們底下提出這幾個方法比如說在刑事上我們加強行政處遇在民事上我們透過律師的諮詢強化調解在程序上加強審查減少訴訟量一審量少上訴量就能減少你覺得這有沒有幫助"},{"start":480.332,"end":501.429,"text":"這個應該一些有效率的方式這些應該都會有幫助的所以你都支持好那我們來看一下訴訟減量行政簡化已經部分上路了你們有沒有做人力評估的影響影響的評估成效如何有沒有有沒有評估說你們現在所做的這所有的訴訟減量跟行政簡化到底有沒有讓案源源頭的案量減少你們有沒有評估過"},{"start":502.554,"end":518.881,"text":"因為最主要暗眼有時候我們無法控制啊你們有沒有控制那你怎麼知道你的有人要說對症下藥啊你今天看到暗量一直成長你們祭出了訴訟減量祭出了行政簡化結果祭出的手法還是沒法壓下來"},{"start":519.881,"end":532.011,"text":"那你這個對症就沒有下藥啦所以就有另外一種要限量困難的聲音就你們有沒有自己評估過當你們下了這個藥的時候病情有沒有比較好或減少惡化你們有沒有做這個評估"},{"start":533.755,"end":552.74,"text":"如果你沒有做這評估,你不斷地下藥下藥,結果呢案例一直成長成長,你怎麼知道哪個藥有效哪個藥沒有效?那最主要在司法機關是很無奈啊,案言一直來啊,因為法令負擬啊,照料就輸也沒多啊我們科學方法啦,你面對問題你提出解方"},{"start":553.38,"end":578.616,"text":"解方有沒有造成問題沒有繼續惡化也要評估嘛對不對請你們回去做評估來為了要減少訴訟讓法官能專注我們的審判核心業務我們提出了透過包括了我們智慧科技來形成筆錄在確保治安的前提之下我們讓這個摘要的調查意見資料能夠用這個方式還有簡化判決書啊書狀的格式化那你認為這些有沒有幫助"},{"start":579.411,"end":579.671,"text":"法官不是機器人"},{"start":601.527,"end":625.916,"text":"有合理的工作才有裁判品質目前你們是有說一個你們有一個怎樣司法週刊說怎樣你們要去衡量法官的工作量案量對不對案量結案量那請問一下結案100件跟結案10件哪一件哪一個效率高那結案100件跟結案10件兩個法官你認為誰的效率好"},{"start":628.018,"end":649.289,"text":"當然要合理的結案品質才會好是 那你們有沒有評估所以你們目前這一個量化的數字叫做結案量這對法官壓力很大啊有沒有分類不同的案件他可能不需要不同的工作量所以是不是用合理的工作分類來衡量一個合理的結案量 是不是這樣子"},{"start":650.449,"end":653.713,"text":"請你們好好的落實對不同的案件他的合理的工作量做合理的評估不是以單一的結案數量是不是這樣"},{"start":669.711,"end":690.268,"text":"好 那最後我們來看一下那這個統計你們就是說從明天開始我就等於是今天問的嘛要統計才有辦法估算人力需求將幫助法官減壓那你們有辦法區分案件的複雜程度嗎 有辦法吧是可以啊 因為這個都會有一定的處理方式那最後呢 我們最後要提到就是原額啦"},{"start":690.828,"end":708.782,"text":"其實我們剛剛講到了司法官尤其是法官的培養要很長的時間你們往往在一個司法院院長的任內他其實就算透過人總給你們員額你們都不見得來得及補對不對那我們來看一下這個剛剛都提出來了目前你們還有數字沒有改是13900人變成15000人那麼其實整體中央政府的員額是減7%"},{"start":716.167,"end":743.841,"text":"司法院的員額是從13000人變成15000人,增加了快8%你覺得人總有沒有給予我們司法院較多的員額,讓你們解決問題,有沒有?那因為我們現在需求,像今天有提出表嘛,要5000...我知道啦,我說從整體來看啦,一個人口袋其他的小孩零用金都減了,給你的零用金是成長的,你覺得人總在員額上有沒有不給司法院?"},{"start":745.841,"end":761.404,"text":"處長報告委員現在這個是要講到一個嚴格就是在108年底的時候總原法修正當時雖然從一萬三千九提高為一萬五千人看起來是增加一千一百人但事實上當時司法院提出來的需要請證的緣合是兩萬兩千零六十八人我了解"},{"start":761.884,"end":787.543,"text":"平估後來的心智那果不出其然現在減縮為一萬五千人之後接下來的各項心智、憲法訴訟法那個國民法官法然後行政訴訟心智商業事件審理法等等的這一大堆心智增加法官工作負擔這個一千一百人現在證明就是杯水抽薪對不對在下明年要成立北部邵家法院很好 處長你不用那麼上氣不接下氣我們都知道你們需求很大"},{"start":788.183,"end":813.811,"text":"但是今天整體中華民國中央政府原額是減7%的喔所以我要說的是說我們說話持平來論整個中央政府總原額法他是在縮減的但是給司法院的原額是要提高的但是提高的幅度還趕不上你的需求這是你要講的嘛 對不對好 那我們往這方面來思考好 但是除了時任法官之外法官有77條 我們有憂鬱法官憂鬱法官有沒有記錄目前的原額 有沒有"},{"start":815.868,"end":837.656,"text":"因為他還是有領人事費他是領三分之二上面寫不記錄該機關所定員額之內呢那是在指不記錄現有員額但是他還是記錄預算員額好那這個就是一個問題了嘛所以未來我們是不是可以把憂鬱的法官在員額的計算上跟人總商量不要計算在你們的機關員額或者不要再計算預算員額預算員額是誰是主計總處嘛對不對"},{"start":842.498,"end":864.025,"text":"人事費用所以這個部分你們具體來提把這些 所以你們會發現喔過勞的法官好像都是年輕人耶我不是說年齡歧視但是年輕照長的因為有這個憂鬱制度他比較不容易過勞可是他一樣佔緣額如果他辦的案件少我們給他憂鬱因為法官終身職嘛憲法81條的規定嘛 是不是這樣"},{"start":865.911,"end":891.414,"text":"所以過老的都是年輕的法官那我們怎樣把這個緣額...應該不分年齡啦應該不分年齡因為我看過太多年老的也是...所以我們秘書長終於還是幫忙同儕講個話啦我70歲啊我知道...所以你也很過老啦而且看過那個年老的這個...所以我是說你們設法要從這個緣額上的計算去跟人種去argue可不可以?"},{"start":892.389,"end":892.489,"text":"三管齊下"},{"start":909.764,"end":920.789,"text":"請司法院3個月內提出順便報告．合理評量各類案件所需的不同工作量．並具以調配案量並評估未來能力需求．可以嗎"},{"start":933.006,"end":944.939,"text":"請司法院衡量10年內憂鬱法官控制的緣額,配合跟人事總署爭取,併入未來整體的緣額需求,並就法官跟書記官等為適當配置。"},{"start":954.179,"end":954.199,"text":"鍾佳濱"}]}},{"id":"151676","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151676","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb36746baa194ddc62de793a383c05d564ceadb1108e4b844325e16c825a20c8d705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:49:43 - 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Kacaw委員：今天審查陸海空軍懲罰法、軍人權益事件處理法草案。陸海空軍懲罰法是承襲民國19年當時的體例，這個確實要大修特修。但是我看你們花了很長的時間開了會議，然後送到立法院的條文，我再談一下，這裡面特別提到「軍人應受懲罰行為區分『勤務上』與『勤務外』」，這是正確的方向。正確的方向，應該要這樣做。","就以這兩條，現行條文第十五條跟現在行政院版送來的第六條相較，原來第十五條現行條文「現役軍人有下列違失行為之一者，應受懲罰」，有好幾款；現在送來的第六條修正版「軍人非執行勤務而有下列行為之一者，為勤務外違紀行為，仍應受懲罰」，列了7款。請問「仍應受懲罰」，違反這7款要如何懲罰？"],["沈司長世偉：我是法律司司長，跟委員報告，這就是懲罰的事由。第六條規範的是勤務外，譬如他放假在外面，如果故意觸犯刑事法律，他放假在外面吸毒、酒駕、實施性騷擾等等，都可以當作懲罰的事由。現行條文第十五條列了很多款次，我們也查考了一些資料，從民國3年的什麼海軍艦艇規則、陸軍的等等規則，最多有到六十、七十款的，列了非常多，其實是列不完的。所以以後的規範就是，第五條就是勤務內的，你在執勤的時候、在營區的時候該遵守的紀律，怠忽職責，那都是懲罰的事由，我不用一一地列舉走路丟垃圾，或是隨地吐痰、不遵守飯廳秩序或不怎麼樣等，我列不完，在勤務內的我就用勤務內的方式來處罰。如果是勤務外的，你不是執勤，放假回家、休假，但是你不可以去觸犯我們國家的法律，不可以在營外吸毒、不可以酒駕、不可以性騷擾。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對啊！如何懲罰？"],["沈司長世偉：就是按照裡面的相關規定，查完了之後由權責長官來做懲罰，輕的直接就懲罰，重的會聽一聽那個懲罰諮詢會的意見，權責長官來做處罰。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：次長、司長，問題就在這裡，既然要修法就要修得完備，怎麼樣的情形要撤職、怎麼樣的情形要記過還是要罰站或者做什麼，所以還是要回到你相關的授權規定，沒有授權啦！你訂在一些行政規則或者要點、注意事項裡面，目前的作法還是跟過去一樣啊！尤其涉及到撤職是很嚴重的，所以不應該訂一些相關的行政規則去決定，甚至於這個會議，你們叫做什麼？審議會……"],["沈司長世偉：諮詢會。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：諮詢會來決定，所以這個部分還要再精進，尤其是涉及到撤職，對不對？"],["沈司長世偉：是，我瞭解委員你的意思。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：像你們現在酒駕當然不應該，本來就有相關的法律去處理，但要達到是不是撤職，你們應該要明定，尤其撤職這個部分涉及到的部分，過去比較少討論。因為是軍人，基本上還是涉及到工作權，所以這個部分請次長還有法律事務司，怎麼樣把陸海空軍懲罰法未來再繼續地修正，好不好？"],["楊次長基榮：我們下去會繼續努力。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員，我們後面會開公聽會，可以邀請你來參與、提供寶貴意見。司長請回、次長請回。","接下來進行詢答委員是沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員、沈發惠委員不在。","許宇甄委員、許宇甄委員、許宇甄委員不在。","萬美玲委員、萬美玲委員、萬美玲委員不在。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","接下來進行詢答的委員是吳宗憲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","林楚茵","沈伯洋","黃國昌","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳永康","陳俊宇","羅智強","林思銘","洪申翰","翁曉玲","陳冠廷","吳思瑤","林憶君","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳宗憲","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","陳培瑜","傅崐萁","沈發惠"],"page_start":251,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133201","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133201_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"一、審查行政院函請審議「陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案」案；二、審查本院委員徐巧芯等18人擬具\n「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查行政院函請審議「軍人權益事件處理法草\n案」案；四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案","agenda_id":"1133201_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.34659375,"end":5.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.75159375,"end":5.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.81909375,"end":6.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.03846875,"end":6.308468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.308468750000001,"end":6.494093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.88221875,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.03409375,"end":7.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.87784375,"end":8.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.953468750000003,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.556593750000001,"end":15.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.94409375,"end":16.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.15471875,"end":19.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.35284375,"end":21.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.54659375,"end":24.719093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.49534375,"end":28.515968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.680343750000002,"end":30.203468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.60409375,"end":33.595343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.05096875,"end":36.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.83534375,"end":40.868468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.189093750000005,"end":42.454718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.91034375,"end":45.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.049093750000004,"end":48.040343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.580343750000004,"end":50.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.95159375,"end":49.305968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.92596875,"end":52.596593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.93409375,"end":55.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.532843750000005,"end":58.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.88659375,"end":60.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.30409375000001,"end":71.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.74534375,"end":73.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.71971875,"end":82.95471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.33846875,"end":101.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.83784375,"end":103.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.44096875000001,"end":105.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.88346875,"end":107.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.53721875000001,"end":110.86596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.64221875000001,"end":112.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.82346875,"end":113.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.88221875,"end":115.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.36284375000001,"end":118.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.07971875000001,"end":121.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.40846875000001,"end":123.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.45034375,"end":124.92284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.92284375000001,"end":124.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.69909375,"end":125.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.71596875,"end":189.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.72409375000001,"end":127.89284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.91721875000002,"end":188.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.27971875,"end":196.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.91159375,"end":204.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.00784375,"end":202.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.51784375000003,"end":205.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.55159375000002,"end":206.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.51346875000002,"end":207.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.16284375,"end":211.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.33096875,"end":214.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.57534375,"end":217.41471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.57909375000003,"end":220.67159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.36346875,"end":221.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.27471875,"end":222.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.30409375000002,"end":226.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.13034375,"end":230.02034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.88096875000002,"end":231.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.58971875,"end":231.64034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.77534375000002,"end":235.06596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.24721875,"end":238.17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11:52:18","影片長度":"00:05:12","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案。\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員黃建賓等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-9"},"duration":312,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:52:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:47:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":770,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時47分）主席，謝謝，麻煩請王美花部長。"],["主席：來，請部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我想我還是來跟您就教理念跟觀念、立場的部分。本席看到前天你們有前往中南部舉辦中小企業的座談，會中你特別提到現在減碳和智慧化轉型是重要的項目。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：甚至好像你有提到一個例子，說現在如果跟其他企業溝通的話，一個小時有40分鐘都在討論怎麼樣減碳，是不是？"],["王部長美花：這個是我到其他國家實際碰到的情形。"],["洪委員孟楷：那您知道現在國內排碳大戶前十大有哪些嗎？"],["王部長美花：這當然有相關的清單，包括中鋼、台積電、中油、台塑和水泥廠等等。"],["洪委員孟楷：最大的排碳大戶是哪個產業？你知道嗎？"],["王部長美花：石化產業是最大的。"],["洪委員孟楷：電力跟相關的燃氣供應業啦！排碳大戶前十大包括台電。您自己也講了，減碳是現在的顯學，但是我們背道而馳，2025年反而要增加排碳的比例，80%以上是火力發電，這個您怎麼看？"],["王部長美花：80%火力發電，火力發電有天然氣跟煤……"],["洪委員孟楷：會不會有一點點自相矛盾？"],["王部長美花：在短期之內我們是低碳，所以增加天然氣的時候可以減煤……"],["洪委員孟楷：哪裡低碳？現在是增碳，增加排碳啊！"],["王部長美花：我們增加天然氣，天然氣的碳排是煤的一半。"],["洪委員孟楷：增加所有能源配比的排碳！"],["王部長美花：沒有！所以為什麼我們要積極增加再生能源，就是希望能夠……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，這個不好笑！這不是一個好笑的議題，因為你講的，現在減碳是顯學，但是我們的台電反而是背道而馳。","最近也有媒體去訪問和碩聯合科技董事長童子賢，他提到過去自己是反核人士，但是十年來關注地球暖化的議題，陷入暖化跟反核的掙扎，這兩年慢慢想清楚，說地球暖化才是人類的公敵，核能不是，核能可能是綠能的盟友，而非敵人。你認同這句話嗎？"],["王部長美花：我想大家的意見我們都尊重。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以尊重是怎麼樣？"],["王部長美花：我們都尊重大家的意見。"],["洪委員孟楷：對於他說核能可能是綠能的盟友，你覺得這句話有講得不對嗎？"],["王部長美花：這是童……"],["洪委員孟楷：地球暖化是人類的公敵，核能不是，這句話你覺得有不對嗎？"],["王部長美花：他提到暖化的重要性。"],["洪委員孟楷：是暖化的嚴重性，不是重要性。"],["王部長美花：重要性！"],["洪委員孟楷：暖化的嚴重性！"],["王部長美花：是、是、是，這個要去重視。"],["洪委員孟楷：最後本席只是要請教，今天早上有一些委員召開記者會，提出核能研議的倡議，你提到這要全民共識，是不是？"],["王部長美花：我想核能在臺灣一個最大的問題就是社會共識是非常重要的。"],["洪委員孟楷：社會共識當然重要，那我請教，2018年公投通過以核養綠，這算不算是全民共識？"],["王部長美花：這是按照當時公投的規定來的一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：這算不算全民共識？"],["王部長美花：當時是多數的一個見解，沒有錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：當時是多數，沒有錯嘛！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那之後經濟部有因為這樣子的多數、參考這樣子的做法，而去採用以核養綠嗎？並沒有！"],["王部長美花：事實上我們對……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以其實你講全民共識根本也是一個幌子啊！當時即便是通過了公投，經濟部也沒有因為這樣子而去採用，所以你現在講全民共識，其實根本也沒有尊重過全民的意思啊！"],["王部長美花：每一個公投的效力……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長已經要卸任了，但本席在這4分鐘只是拿你自己的話、拿你的邏輯來請教，過去到現在這兩、三年的時間，到底民進黨政府、到底經濟部、到底我們的能源政策是不是背道而馳、有沒有邏輯矛盾？確實是有！我們沒有不支持台電，台電第一線的基層人員非常的辛苦，本席的選區有山區、有海邊、有都市區，我們常常也都跟台電的人員在一起，所以要比支持台電基層工作人員，我們比誰都支持，但是如果錯誤的能源政策不改變的話，只會累死基層工作人員，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接下來我們請黃捷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-9","speakers":["邱議瑩","黃建賓","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林思銘","林岱樺","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)本院\n委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及\n第三十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.8153437500000003,"end":4.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.53659375,"end":5.228468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.539718750000002,"end":16.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.90596875,"end":28.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.515968750000003,"end":29.410343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.410343750000003,"end":29.832218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.832218750000003,"end":30.794093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.13159375,"end":38.134718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.80971875,"end":39.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.34971875,"end":44.462843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.462843750000005,"end":44.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.83409375,"end":45.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.985968750000005,"end":50.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.28034375,"end":52.039718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.74846875,"end":56.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.73971875,"end":55.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.595968750000004,"end":60.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.40971875,"end":61.017218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.05096875,"end":61.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.13096875,"end":69.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.41659375,"end":72.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.32346875,"end":73.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.65221875,"end":77.50409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.21284375,"end":78.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.00596875000001,"end":80.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.72721875,"end":83.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.69284375000001,"end":84.89534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.40159375,"end":85.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.24534375,"end":87.59534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.15221875,"end":89.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.97471875000001,"end":92.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.84346875,"end":98.14221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.46284375,"end":100.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.17971875,"end":101.77034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.46221875,"end":104.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.62221875,"end":107.20409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.66409375,"end":108.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.40221875,"end":115.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.90346875,"end":116.31659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.12659375000001,"end":122.40846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.17721875000001,"end":118.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.32846875000001,"end":124.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.67846875000001,"end":122.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.61909375,"end":131.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.64784375000002,"end":133.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.10284375,"end":136.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.35971875,"end":139.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.32971875,"end":146.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.14721875,"end":149.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.50971875000002,"end":151.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.26034375,"end":162.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.52034375000002,"end":164.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.56221875,"end":166.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.39721875,"end":169.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.01284375,"end":170.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.10971875,"end":172.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.72971875000002,"end":174.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.34971875000002,"end":174.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.24409375000002,"end":175.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.95284375,"end":179.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.28971875000002,"end":182.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.14159375,"end":183.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.96846875,"end":184.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.03596875000002,"end":184.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.67721875,"end":184.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.82909375,"end":184.84596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.84596875000003,"end":188.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.33471875,"end":190.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":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11:49:21","影片長度":"00:06:57","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案」案。二、審查本院委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查行政院函請審議「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1"},"duration":417,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:49:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:42:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":624,"blocks":[["林委員憶君：（11時42分）主席好，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["邱部長國正：林委員好。"],["林委員憶君：部長好。上次本席質詢有關新式國造抗彈板的問題，本席還是呼籲一下國防部，務必要確保能抵擋共軍5.8口徑子彈的話，至少還是要做到NIJ標準的RF2等級的防護才夠，但如果國防部認為ESAPI的標準抗彈板太重，會造成國軍士兵的負擔，那我覺得應該用更科學的方式來加強官兵的體能，其實這個才是正本清源的方式。現在運動科學其實比以前進步很多，以運動科學為基礎的話，針對肌群的訓練還有搭配適當的飲食和睡眠，其實可以非常有系統性的大幅提高官兵的體能。例如美國陸軍H2F的計畫，就是把運動生理、營養學、運動心理還有精神和睡眠的專業知識，普及到全軍的110個營級單位，甚至會讓每個營區的健身房都配置專業的健身教練還有物理治療師、營養師。請問部長，目前我們每個營區都是有設置健身房嗎？"],["邱部長國正：看單位，有些新興的營區，比如說興安專案，通常新蓋的房子大概都有健身房；以前比較老舊，大概就靠運動器材，不見得有專屬的健身房，健身房要包含的項目很多，比如說肌耐力等等，但它不見得能夠完全……比如說跑步機，操場跑或在跑步機上跑當然會有所差異，如果天候不好，當然健身房是有用的，但可能沒有辦法讓每個營區統統都有健身房。"],["林委員憶君：好的，我也大約知道像部長說的，可能占地不足，還是有一些使用上的成本考量啦！但是建議部長，不適合設置健身房或是器材不足的營區，其實是不是可以跟周邊民間的健身業者合作，請健身房的健身教練來協助官兵特定的肌群還有體能的訓練？"],["邱部長國正：這也是思考方向之一，我們也可以試看看。"],["林委員憶君：好，雖然國軍有的部分，其實大家都意識到運動科學的重要性，例如體測現在也是都用捲腹取代傷到腰部的仰臥起坐，但總體上是在推廣階段，還沒有非常普及。所以本席要請部長加速普及性，在運動科學方面，還有以科學的方法練兵，其實可以讓整個素質有系統性的成長，可以嗎？"],["邱部長國正：這個應該要做的，都對他的健康有利，體能也可以提升，這種我們當然樂見。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝部長。","去年抗彈板的問題，其實爆出來就是因為一個美國網紅對抗彈板進行野地測試。而前幾天有一個網紅又對國軍的抗彈頭盔進行了測試，請問部長，國防部對這件事情有掌握嗎？"],["邱部長國正：請軍備局做說明。"],["林局長文祥：委員好。感謝委員的指導，我們分別在4月3日跟15日有跟委員辦公室說明。我們的頭盔，包含抗彈板，都是在105年依照軍種的作戰需求跟敵情威脅，確實是用NIJ的標準。去年在王定宇召委指導之下，我們全部新一代的抗彈板採取美軍ESAPI的。委員剛剛指導的凹陷值，確實在105年的時候NIJ是沒有做凹陷部分，為了沒有做凹陷的部分，我們在112年也送我們的頭盔到國防大學理工學院的彈道實驗室去打，打的結果都是合乎現在美軍最新的ACH。去年王召委也指導了，爾後我們新一代的抗彈板和頭盔，跟委員給我們指導的，我們都是用最新的，新一代抗彈版是用ESAPI、頭盔是用ACH的。我們非常感謝委員的指導，以上報告。"],["林委員憶君：好，因為之前我詢問過軍備局，你們說有送國防理工學院測試凹陷值，數據看起來是完全符合美軍ACH的防護標準，但是ACH的凹陷值規範，這個有公布測試的結果嗎？"],["林局長文祥：跟委員報告，我們就是要取得認證，我們現在申請TAF，我們就是一個標準，一定要TAF認證完之後，我們就會將TAF認證完跟我們測試完的公告了……"],["林委員憶君：好，很多臺灣民眾和官士兵對於抗彈頭盔其實還是抱有不少的疑慮，現在也請問部長，如果召委同意的話能不能安排參訪？我們外交及國防委員會可以去兵試場看軍備局按照測試標準打一次嘛！測試的頭盔從各單位隨機挑選。我還有另外一個想法，實驗室測試結果如果還是沒有辦法確保讓民眾對抗彈頭盔信任的話，國防部也可以做一個野地測試啊！安排在室內靶場讓幾個當過兵的像……"],["主席：委員，你現在在建議我，是吧？"],["林委員憶君：對，像王定宇……"],["主席：沒有問題，你不要叫我穿著當靶就好，其他的我都沒問題。"],["林委員憶君：不會！像王定宇召委還是陳永康委員，其實稍微練習一下都是非常可以恢復以前熟悉的嘛！如果也能成功擋下子彈或者破片的話，表示無論是實驗室的數據還是實際使用上，是完全沒有問題的，那質疑的聲音，肯定大家都啞口無言了。這個辦法，部長及大家覺得如何？"],["邱部長國正：對，這個好方法，我們事實上也在努力，比如開記者會、打給記者看的也在做。"],["林局長文祥：去年打過，新一代的。"],["主席：他們自己有打過，但下次也許我們委員會找個時間看一下他們怎麼操作的。"],["邱部長國正：對，這個……"],["主席：操作還是讓專業的人來。國軍的安全是重中之重，每一個弟兄姐妹都是我們的寶貝，我相信軍備局會把這個做好。照林憶君委員所提的建議，我們儘快安排。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝召委、謝謝部長。"],["邱部長國正：委員表示，是取得公信力的方法之一，我們也朝這方面去做。"],["林委員憶君：好，謝謝部長。"],["邱部長國正：去年的確有做過。"],["主席：好，謝謝林委員。接下來進行詢答的委員是鄭天財委員，時間4分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","林楚茵","沈伯洋","黃國昌","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳永康","陳俊宇","羅智強","林思銘","洪申翰","翁曉玲","陳冠廷","吳思瑤","林憶君","鄭天財Sra 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,"text":"所以這也是思考方向之一嘛,所以我們也可以試看看。好,然後雖然國軍有部分,其實大家都有意識到運動科學的重要性,例如體測,現在也是都用捲腹來取代上到腰部的仰臥起坐嘛,但總體上面還是在推廣的階段還沒有到非常的普及。"},{"start":170.567,"end":189.761,"text":"所以這邊北市想要請部長加速普及性,在運動科學方面還有以科學的方法練兵,其實可以讓整個數值有系統性的成長,那OK嗎?可以嗎?這應該要做的,都對他健康又有利,體能也可以提升,這種當樂見。"},{"start":193.363,"end":208.533,"text":"去年抗彈板的問題其實報出來就是有因為一個美國網紅對抗彈板進行野地的測試所以那前幾天有一個網紅又對國軍的抗彈頭盔進行了測試那請問部長國防部有對這件事情有掌握嗎?"},{"start":212.287,"end":237.381,"text":"委員好感謝委員的一個指導我們分別在4月3號跟15號有跟委員辦公室來說明我們的頭盔包含抗彈板都是在105年依照軍種的作戰需求跟敵情的威脅確實是用NIA的一個標準那去年在我們王定宇王昭偉的指導之下我們全部我們新一代的抗彈板採取美軍的一剎皮的"},{"start":238.041,"end":255.248,"text":"跟委員剛剛指導的凹陷子確實我們在100我們在105年的時候NIDA是沒有做凹陷那我們這個為了沒有做凹陷我們在112年也幫我們的頭盔送到國防大學的理工學院的彈道實驗室去打"},{"start":255.808,"end":274.68,"text":"打的結果都是合乎現在美軍最新的ACH,那去年也指導了,我們王昭偉也指導了,我們偶後我們新一代的抗彈板跟頭盔跟委員給我們指導的,我們都是用最新的,新一代抗彈板是用VSAP的,頭盔是用ACS的,我們非常感謝委員的指導,以上報告。"},{"start":275.14,"end":286.605,"text":"好,那因為之前我有詢問過軍備局嘛,裡面有說有送國防理工學院測試凹陷值,那數據看起來是完全符合美軍ACH的防護標準,但是這個防護這個ACH凹陷值的規範,這個有公佈測試的結果嗎?"},{"start":294.998,"end":307.65,"text":"跟委員報告,我們就是要取得認證,我們現在在申請TAP,因為一定要TAP認證完之後,我們就是一個標準。TAP認證完之後,我們就會將TAP認證完跟我們測試完就會公告了。"},{"start":310.635,"end":316.24,"text":"所以其實這個很多台灣的民眾和官士兵其實對於抗彈頭盔其實還是抱有不少的疑慮所以其實現在也是請問部長其實還有如果召委同意的話能不能安排參訪我們外交國防委員會其實可以去兵士場看軍備局按照測試標準打一次測試的頭盔從各單位隨機挑選"},{"start":334.625,"end":338.087,"text":"實驗室測試結果,如果還是沒有辦法確保民眾對抗彈頭盔的信任的話,其實那國防部也可以做一個野地測試啊,安排國在室內靶場讓幾個當過兵的,你不要叫我穿著當靶就好,其他都沒問題。"},{"start":355.075,"end":359.796,"text":"不會不會現在王定宇召委啦還是陳永康委員啊其實稍微練習一下都是非常的可以恢復以前熟悉的嘛吼那如果也能成功擋下子彈或者破片的話其實表示無論是實驗室的數據還是實際使用上是完全沒有問題的那要質疑的聲音肯定大家都啞口無言了嘛這樣這個辦法"},{"start":378.021,"end":386.945,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。三、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。五、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具《陸海空軍懲罰法》案。"},{"start":407.994,"end":408.435,"text":"徐巧芯等20人擬具"}]}},{"id":"151673","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151673","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3e30812bd7b62b82bb903698ddfaa754aeadb1108e4b844328e65e8e2ec6156db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:40:54 - 11:49:25","影片長度":"00:08:31","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":511,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:49:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:40:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":830,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時41分）主席，楊瓊瓔發言，邀請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：部長好。部長，本席要跟你討論封網，它龜速卡卡的，問題到底卡在哪裡？"],["薛部長瑞元：你說什麼卡卡的？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：偷拍的封網的這一個速度慢，龜速、慢，那它卡在哪裡？"],["薛部長瑞元：過去是因為我們有施行細則，必須要有幾個階段再去做處理，比方說可能民眾檢舉之後我們要去……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你們沒有辦法主動嘛，是民眾檢舉，換句話說就是被動。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席上一次也跟你討論過這個議題，你們也有積極在做，上個禮拜五你們也跟相關單位趕快去整合。整合的方向當然最主要的也就是可以預防重於治療，只要發現你們就可以……"],["薛部長瑞元：就先動手。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就先動手了。這個本席是非常希望也非常讚許，因為我們不能讓這個事件再發生。這樣的一個情況之下，你們在禮拜五所討論的內容大概方向，除了可以預備動作，只要發現有狀況的時候，可以先預防性的封網，是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：是，差不多是這個意思。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那其他呢，還有沒有幾個重點？"],["薛部長瑞元：其他幾個重點包括付費觀賞性影像，這個以前沒有入罪，現在我們打算也要把它……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這一個部分也匡列進來，付費觀賞的這個部分。好，再來呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：剛剛提到主動的去封網之外，還有一個。因為現在有兩種違法的模式，一種就是剛剛講的，它是一個網站，所以用主動預防性的封網來做處理。但是另外還有一個，就是有人上傳到某一個媒體或者是平臺上面去。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個就要讓他下架，因為他可能是在Facebook上面去po出來，也有可能說是在LINE裡面去po出來……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個沒有辦法用封網的方式去做處理，所以就要他下架，過去的話是它的程序太冗長，人家檢舉之後還要去通知當事人……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：緩不濟急啦。"],["薛部長瑞元：通知當事人的時候……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：那你們怎麼樣去簡化這個SOP流程呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，這個部分就是希望說能夠簡化。簡單來講，就是要處理掉電子送達的那個問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們歡喜聽到部長你剛才所說的，因為過去一年封網的只有9件，可是我們明知道社會大眾已經有這麼多的污染，已經很清楚，而且對受害者而言，這是一輩子都不知道該怎麼處理的，所以不能再有這樣的事件發生。所以我要請教，目前你們的進度有在進行式，你們預計什麼時候會有條文出來？"],["薛部長瑞元：條文現在我們大致上都擬好，但是那個算是參考條文，也是要給……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，請問你們的預估KPI裡頭，什麼時候會送出？因為社會大眾很期待，什麼時候？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該這個禮拜，我們大概就會把它讓衛環委員會的委員都能夠知道。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就這個禮拜。換句話說，本席如此的解讀你看對不對，也就是在這個禮拜五以前，你們會將這段時間所討論的綜合之後，條文擬定稿出來？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，就建議條文，建議的條文會出來。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，我們也希望趕快出來，因為這樣朝野協商、朝野討論才能夠更加的精進，我們期待。因為本席有提案，我真的很難過看到這樣的事件發生，所以我希望政府要有為，一起來做，這是第一個議題。"],["薛部長瑞元：好、好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：接下來本席要請教，家庭暴力防治法修法之後，這個家暴安全網很多人就說我如果去申請保護令，受到的二次傷害更大，而且我也看到這個數字也讓我很難過，通報家暴去年有達到13萬2,147件的高峰，這個是顯性的，隱性沒有通報的還不知道多少，這個社會太痛苦了。在這樣的情況之下，目前修法之後親密關係是包括婚姻、離婚、同居，所以實際上處理的時候，訪視人員太辛苦了，這個非常的複雜。所以本席要請教，我們是希望保護令能夠真正得到保護，但是也造成了很多的二次傷害。所以在這樣的情況之下，家暴的安全網……當然它包括了很多，警政、教育、衛生、社政、民政、戶政，勞工等等單位的一個整合，因為本席在社會學跟社工系裡頭，好好在研討這個問題。那你要結合這麼多的單位，又面臨到這麼複雜的一個情境，所以我認為目前的執行跟目前的法律還是沒有辦法保護這些人員，而且它數量在增加。","所以我具體的建議，第一個，你們整個流程要怎麼樣讓受害者，申請保護令的人可以真正去得到保護，有什麼精進的方案，這第一個；第二個，訪視人員明明白白是不夠的，那部長你應該要去盤點。跟剛剛我在司法委員會一樣，司法院的司法官二十幾歲給你跳下來，這太難過的事情。那平均案件那麼多，所以怎麼辦？所以它盤點所需的人力，它盤點出來。那我也希望衛福部這邊要盤點，訪視的人員到底要怎麼樣去增加，這個非常非常的重要，接下來家暴防治中心，你的主任、社工人員的培訓，當你培訓不足的時候，你還有怎麼樣的量能可以加入？可以加入當然包括了社團，但是必須要去培訓，如果沒有培訓那會更模糊，所以本席在這邊具體建議這兩項，請教部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，這部分的話，其實沒有錯啦，整個的人力必須要去做盤點，因為包括社會安全網在內，這一些部分其實是蠻複雜的。不過像保護令，也就是家暴防治的這個部分的話，我想還是必須要把案件類型整理出來。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝，多久時間？你去盤點出來好不好，我們一起加油。"],["薛部長瑞元：好、好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：真的，我看到訪視人員太辛苦了，你需要多久的時間盤點告訴我們，告訴社會大眾你們的需求？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們可能就儘快啦，我們就儘快。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：大概多久時間？沒關係，你告訴我。"],["薛部長瑞元：我本來想說一個月啦，但是一個月我就不在了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你要有所作為啊，我就等你這句話，對不對！"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊，我就說我們希望是一個月之內，希望啦。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你在520之前提出嘛，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們儘量啦。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可以啦，那沒有問題啦！兩個禮拜內提出沒有問題啦，就盤查啦，好不好？你至少有一個成績嘛，好不好，兩個禮拜之內盤查出來好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好、好、好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝，我們加油。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員。","現在處理臨時提案，總共有9案，請一併宣讀。","一、","衛生福利部於2024年2月統計所屬26家醫院，設有放射診斷科共計20家醫院，設有20個主管職務中，其中10名由放射診斷科醫師兼任，1名由醫事放射師兼任，其餘9名由其他科別醫師暫代。基於適才適任，科主管一職應由相關專業人才擔任為原則，部立醫院更應作為全國醫療院所之表率，以增加相關醫事人員的專業認同。","提案人：蘇巧慧　　黃秀芳　　王正旭　　林月琴","二、","因應C0VID-19相關費用自2023年3月20日回歸健保支應，已造成健保點值有所下降，該年度最終編列公務預算撥補健保。2024年健保總額成長4.7%為健保過去8年來首度成長率達到核定上限，然而，經查2024年1-2月醫療點數申報成長率達9.66%，其中醫院成長8.81%、西醫基層成長16.32%，皆遠高於健保總額成長4.7%，COVID-19輕症門診稀釋健保點值仍持續發生，爰建請衛生福利部持續關注2024年各季健保點值之變化，並邀集相關團體共同研議對策，以穩定醫療品質與量能。","提案人：蘇巧慧　　黃秀芳　　王正旭　　林月琴","三、","我國部分醫事人員面臨人力短缺，特別須配合醫療院所各科室執行二十四小時醫療勤務輪值之醫療院所，該院該醫事人員在招募及留才上更面臨挑戰。為減緩現有護理人力短缺，行政院於2023年9月28日通過護理人力政策整備12項策略計畫，其中之一「護理人員夜班費獎勵」立意良善，爰建請衛生福利部於三個月內盤點各醫事人員人力情形，對於人力短缺者研議予以夜班費獎勵，並將盤點及研議結果送至社會福利及衛生環境委員會。","提案人：蘇巧慧　　黃秀芳　　王正旭　　林月琴","四、","查過去兒少法實施過程中，校園中如發生符合兒少法通報要求的事件，依衛福部《兒童及少年保護通報與分級分類處理及調查辦法》，相關通報將會回歸校園進行行政調查。然因過去機制中沒有要求校園的調查結果要回送社政機關進行裁罰，故實務上即會發生就出現即便教育行政端對事件調查事實確認，也做出依教育法規的處分（記過、停聘、解將、不續聘），但因為社政機關對相關調查毫無所悉，更遑論做出兒少權法的裁罰。最直接的影響，就是在社政體系經兒少法裁罰後能透過公告加害人姓名，讓一般的家長能藉由查詢來確認接觸孩子的成年人是否曾有兒少法裁罰紀錄，但在校園中即便加害者行為已經符合兒少法裁法的標準，也會因為社政機關未追蹤與裁罰，形成家長們在查詢時的盲區。","經近半年與衛福部、教育部跨部會討論，目前相關標準作業流程雖已修正，然為使相關制度能夠更完整，也讓過往可能漏接的個案受到應有裁罰，爰要求衛福部應請各地方社政機關向教育機關追溯行政罰法27條三年時效內之校園調查報告，由社政單位重新檢視校園內調查屬實且未經兒少法裁罰之個案。前述校園查證屬實但未經兒少法裁罰案件提供狀況，與後續裁罰狀況之書面報告，請於三個月內提供立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會。","提案人：陳培瑜　　林月琴　　黃秀芳　　劉建國","五、","案由：","有鑑於本月的調漲電價措施，致使醫療產業在照顧弱勢及永續重要性因此受到衝擊，更讓各醫院在健保總額制度之下，被迫需讓病患透過分擔漲價後的掛號費來平衡高昂之電費成本。爰此，考量當前全國醫院當中僅地區醫院受到電費補貼，如此實難以解決整體醫療韌性受損之事實，是以決議速啟動對於各層級醫院辦理電價補貼之研議作業，俟後並於二個月內向本院衛環委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　　邱鎮軍　　楊瓊瓔　　廖偉翔　　洪孟楷","六、","案由：","有鑑於街生福利部乃我國刑事政策中重要角色，並透過主管的《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》第37條內容所明定的死刑規範，來維繫被害兒少遭遇天理難容多類犯行之事後對兇嫌的應報，以及事前預防的處分威嚇。然而，考量近期我國死刑制度之存廢，可能會受到釋憲作業宣告違憲，因此衛生福利部需再配合對《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》第37條修法予以廢止死刑內容，進而衝擊我國兒少保護業務之執行。爰此，考量防制兒童及少年遭受任何形式之性剝削，保護其身心健全發展之施政必須嚴謹，特決議要求最速完成死刑受廢止後所可能對於兒少保護業務之衝擊評估，並限期於一個月內向本院衛環委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　　邱鎮軍　　楊瓊瓔　　廖偉翔　　洪孟楷","七、","有鑑於散播兒少性影像之非法網站，無法以網路技術完全封禁，若改以阻斷金流方式，方得有效阻止非法網站營運。經查，若非法網站透過國外之虛擬貨幣交易所或未記名錢包，以現行制度上即有追查困難。又查多數非法網站，皆有提供人民幣付款選項，即透過中國大陸地區境內之合法金流，就可獲得營運之資金，且我國即國人亦可使用之。","為避免兒少性影像繼續透過上述非法網站恣意傳播，並有效斬斷其營運金流、並反向追溯相關使用者，爰要求金融監督管理委員會與警政署，彙整目前追溯虛擬貨幣金流之措施。另對於中國大陸境內之金流，評估是否能透過兩岸共同打擊犯罪及司法互助協議平台，追查相關紀錄與使用者身分。另對以上措施不足之處，提供未來精進措施之規劃，於一個月內，向本委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：王育敏　　　楊瓊瓔　　陳菁徽　　廖偉翔　　洪孟楷","八、","據婦女救援基金會2021年調查，發現目睹家暴受害人於童年時期有接受過社工服務只有8.6%，沒有接受過則有高達91.4%」，並且成年後，有高達50.4%填寫者沒有尋求過資源協助。經查，衛福部111年推動建置兒少領航員輔導支持資源中心，至今只有五家民間團體合作在在顯示目前提供目睹家暴兒少之社會資源仍有不足，實有改善之必要。","為保障兒少身心健康，爰要求衛福部就如何增加與改善目睹家暴兒少之輔導支持資源，加強與民間團體合作，於一個月內向社會福利及衛生環境委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：王育敏　　　楊瓊瓔　　陳菁徽　　廖偉翔　　洪孟楷","九、","有鑑於「托育人員專業訓練課程」、「托育人員在職訓練課程實施計畫」、「兒童及少年福利機構專業人員訓練實施計畫」師資及課程內容及教材編纂現存諸多問題，請衛生福利部於年底前研擬前述課程計畫加入「兒虐評估專業知能」，並明定時數、師資規定、課程內容及教材。","目前我國各縣市居家式托育訪視輔導管理做法不一等問題。請衛生福利部於兩個月內提出縣市訪視輔導管理如何統一之改善做法，供本委員會委員審視，以明確行政程序。","現今衛生福利部提供兒虐數據「施虐者身分別」分類未明確，導致施虐者詳細身份未明，導致管制面政策執行成效不佳，請衛生福利部於一個月內調整兒虐數據分類方式，供本委員會委員審視，以明確行政程序。","提案人：林月琴","連署人：王正旭　　黃秀芳"],["主席：現在開始處理。","請問第一案行政單位有無意見？"],["薛部長瑞元：有關於第一案的話，大概可行性不高。因為醫院裡面放射診斷科的工作，是包括要去打放射影像的報告。那打報告一定是醫師來做的，因為它是一個診斷的工作，所以如果由醫事放射師來做的話，他就沒有辦法做好這件事情。所以這部分的話，我想可能不是很適當。"],["主席：王委員。"],["王委員正旭：這個提案其實是一個原則，我們是希望當醫院本身如果有這樣的人才、人力的時候，還是儘量由放射診斷科醫師來處理。雖然他的工作量會比較大，不過如果以這樣的文字敘述的話，希望是一個原則性的提案，讓他們在執行上會比較能夠有所依據，以上。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分也跟各位委員報告，就是說放射診斷科的主管，之所以現在有一些部立醫院裡面是沒有辦法找到的原因，並不是說沒有醫師，是因為他不是公職的醫師，而是約聘僱的醫師。約聘僱的醫師的話，從我們組織的方面來看，變成他沒有辦法去擔任這一個主管。要解決這個問題的話，可能不是說那就讓醫事放射師去當主管，因為他沒有辦法做診斷的工作，所以我會建議是不是「研議」讓非公職醫師可以來兼任，這樣子會比較有幫助，這一個我們來研議看看。"],["王委員正旭：同意。"],["主席：可以嗎？"],["王委員正旭：是，同意。"],["主席：等一下文字修正之後再送到主席臺確認，可以齁？","好，第二案行政單位有沒有意見？"],["林副組長右鈞：第二案沒有意見。"],["主席：好，那第二案就照案通過。","第三案。"],["郭專門委員威中：第三案的部分，我們建議從倒數第二行「對於人力短缺者……」，原本是予以夜班費獎勵，建議把它修正為「對於人力短缺者研議予以獎勵方式」，把「夜班費」刪掉，這樣會有一個更大的空間來處理這個部分。"],["主席：好，委員有沒有意見？"],["王委員正旭：同意。"],["郭專門委員威中：獎勵後面就是加「方式」兩個字。"],["主席：好，就照文字修正通過。","第四案。"],["張司長秀鴛：第四案從倒數第四行「要求衛福部函請教育部，就3年內校園調查屬實且未經兒少法裁罰之師對生不當對待案件，移請社政主管機關評估依法裁處。並請將辦理情形於3個月內提供給立法院社環委員會」以上文字。"],["主席：好，委員有沒有意見？"],["陳委員培瑜：我想要先說一下，我知道目前有工作上的困難，所以衛福部希望改成是調查屬實的才要移送。可是我還是要再次強調，之前在很多校園案件調查當中，其實月琴委員有提過，很多案件可能有師師相護的狀況，我們當時是希望衛福部可以一併調查。可是考慮到工作量能，我們目前就先針對剛剛司長您所說的，調查屬實且未經兒少法裁罰的師對生，這個版本我們可以接受。可是還是要再次強調，其實還有非常多調查的狀況是不明的，希望後續也有機會在工作量能可以負擔的情況下，還是要有機會把它追回來看一下，以上謝謝。"],["主席：好，第四案就照文字修正通過。","接下來第五案，行政單位有沒有意見？"],["郭專門委員威中：遵照辦理。"],["主席：好，就照案通過。","第六案，行政單位有沒有意見？"],["張司長秀鴛：遵照辦理。"],["主席：好，照案通過，第七案。"],["張司長秀鴛：第七案也沒有問題。"],["主席：好，照案通過。"],["張司長秀鴛：第七案是金管會及警政署。"],["賈警政委員樂吉：沒有問題。"],["主席：第七案照案通過，好。","第八案。"],["張司長秀鴛：第八案是倒數第三行「之輔導支持資源，加強與民間團體合作，於一個月內向衛環委員會提出書面報告。」"],["主席：好，照文字修正通過。","第九案。"],["張司長秀鴛：第九案分成三段，第一段在「請衛福部於『年底前』研議前述課程計畫」這個文字，然後第二段的「兩個月」是不是可以修改成「三個月」？第三段「請衛福部於一個月內……」我們建議修正為「三個月內」研議調整兒虐數據分類方式。委員有特別要求結果要告知委員，我們遵照辦理。"],["主席：委員有沒有意見？","沒有意見，好，那就照文字修正通過。","臨時提案全部處理完畢，接下來請黃珊珊委員發言。","在這邊我先作一個宣告：中午不休息，質詢到登記委員發言結束再休息。","剛剛那個臨時提案的第一案……"],["王委員正旭：我先確認一下，就是基於適才適任，請衛生福利部研議科主管……，剛剛部長有提到，如果現在在執行上的確有困境或者是無法執行的部分，不然我們先撤案好了，以後我們再來處理好不好？"],["主席：好，那第一案就撤案。","好，接下來請黃珊珊委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 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":6.758,"end":10.039,"text":"主席、楊潔瑜發言,再邀請部長,請薛部長。委員好。部長好。部長,本席要跟你討論的是封網呢,那它歸宿卡卡的,到底問題卡在哪裡?偷拍的這個封網,那這個速度慢,歸宿慢,那它卡在哪裡?"},{"start":34.113,"end":48.064,"text":"通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、金融監督管理委員會"},{"start":65.277,"end":92.94,"text":"預防綜維治療,只要發現你們就可以先動手了。」這個是本席非常希望也非常讚許因為我們不能讓這個事件再發生那這樣的一個情況之下你們在禮拜五所討論的內容大概方向除了這個你們可以預備動作只要發現有狀況的時候可以先預防性的封網是不是?對,差不多是這個意思"},{"start":93.44,"end":110.928,"text":"那其他呢?還有幾個重點?其他還有幾個重點,包括就是說這一個付費觀賞、現影像,以前都沒有入罪,現在我們打算這一個也要把它讓…這一個部分也匡列進來?付費觀賞的這個部分?"},{"start":113.049,"end":139.3,"text":"那剛剛提到的主動去封網之外的話還有一個就是說因為現在有兩種這種違法的模式一種就是剛剛講的那它是一個網站所以這用主動預防性的封網來做處理但是另外還有一個就是這種有人上傳到某一個媒體或者是平台上面去"},{"start":140.44,"end":155.707,"text":"這個就要讓他下架因為他可能是說在Facebook上面去PO出來也有可能說是在LINE裡面去PO出來那這個我們沒有辦法用封網的方式去做處理所以就要他下架那過去的話是他的程序太冗長"},{"start":156.827,"end":180.179,"text":"人家檢舉之後的話,我們還要去通知當事人,要通知當事人的時候。那你們怎麼樣簡化這個SOP流程呢?對,我們這個部分都希望就是說能夠簡化。簡單來講的話,就是要處理掉那個送達的那個問題,電子送達的那個問題。我們歡喜聽到部長你剛才所說的,因為我們看到過去一年,那封網的只有9件。"},{"start":180.879,"end":189.846,"text":"法務部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會"},{"start":202.645,"end":223.756,"text":"出來,你們預計的時間?條文現在我們大致上都擬好,但是大概算是參考條文對,所以請問你們的預估KPI裡頭,什麼時候會送出?因為社會大眾很期待,什麼時候?應該這個禮拜我們大概就會把它讓衛環委員會裡面的委員都能夠知道"},{"start":224.376,"end":238.641,"text":"這個禮拜。」就換句話說,本集如此的解讀,看對不對,也就是在這個禮拜五以前,你們會將你們這一段時間所討論的綜合之後,這個條文寧定搞出來。"},{"start":239.221,"end":240.202,"text":"建議條文。」接下來本席要請教"},{"start":262.663,"end":284.259,"text":"我們這個家庭暴力防治法裡頭我們修法之後保護令也這個家暴安全法那很多人就說我如果去申請保護令他受到的二次傷害更大更大而且我也看到了這個數量也數字也讓我很難過去年有達到13萬件"},{"start":286.923,"end":314.732,"text":"二千一百四十七件的高峰通報家暴那這個是顯性的隱性沒有通報的還不知道多少那這個社會太痛苦了在這樣的情況之下目前我們是修法之後是親密關係它是包括婚姻、離婚、同居所以實際上大家處理的時候我們的訪視人員太辛苦了這個非常的複雜所以本期要請教"},{"start":316.601,"end":342.718,"text":"保護令我們是希望能夠真正得到保護但是也造成了很多的惡質傷害所以在這樣的情況之下呢家暴的安全網呢當然它包括了很多警政、教育、衛生、社政、民政、戶政、勞工等等單位的一個整合因為本席在社會學跟社工系裡頭我們在好好在研討這個問題那你要結合了這麼多的單位"},{"start":347.381,"end":370.631,"text":"所以又面臨到這麼複雜的一個情境所以我們現在目前我認為目前的執行跟目前的法律還是沒有辦法保護這些人員而且他數量在增加數量在增加所以我具體的建議第一個你們整個流程要怎麼樣讓受害者可以申請保護令的人可以真正"},{"start":371.551,"end":393.358,"text":"去得到保護,我們有什麼堅定的方案?」這第一個。第二個,也就是你的訪視人員明明白白是不夠的。明明白白是不夠的。那部長,你應該要去盤點。跟剛剛我在司法委員會一樣,司法院的司法官二十幾歲給你跳下來,這太難過的事情。那平均案件那麼多,"},{"start":394.418,"end":420.652,"text":"所以怎麼辦所以他們盤點所需的人力他盤點出來那我也希望我們衛福部這邊你盤點你這個訪視的人員你到底要怎麼樣去增加這個非常非常的重要接下來也就是你的家暴防治中心你的主任、社工人員的一個培訓當你不足的時候你還有怎麼樣的量能可以加入"},{"start":421.693,"end":432.044,"text":"可以加入當然包括了社團但是你必須要去培訓你如果沒有培訓那會更模糊了所以本席在這邊具體建議這兩項請教部長"},{"start":434.551,"end":457.085,"text":"好,那這部分的話其實沒有錯啦,這整個人力必須要去做盤點,因為這些社會安全網包括在內的這一些部分的話其實是蠻複雜的那不過像這個保護鏈,也就是家暴防治的這個部分的話,我想我們還是必須要把案件類型把它整理出來"},{"start":458.186,"end":467.979,"text":"謝謝,多久時間,你去盤點出來好不好,我們一起加油,真的我看到我們訪視人員太辛苦了,你多久時間告訴我們,盤點,你們的需求,大概多久時間,沒關係你告訴我"},{"start":475.319,"end":504.538,"text":"我本來想說一個月啦但是一個月我就不在了所以你要有所作為啊我就等你這句話啊對不對對啊我就說我們希望是一個月之內希望啦你在520之前提出嘛好不好我們盡量啦可以啦那沒有問題啦兩個禮拜內提出沒有問題就盤查啦好不好你至少有一個成績嘛好不好兩個禮拜之內盤查出來好不好好謝謝我們加油"},{"start":505.982,"end":510.519,"text":"和社會福利及衛生環境委員會、社會福利部部長、國家通訊管理委員會、社會福利部部長、國家通訊管理委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊管理委員會、"}]}},{"id":"151672","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151672","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb340f39974bddc79efb903698ddfaa754aeadb1108e4b84432c918c540eac2d2945ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"11:33:00 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11:40:52","影片長度":"00:07:52","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":472,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:40:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:33:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":758,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（11時33分）謝謝主席，我們請衛福部部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長好。部長，剛剛聽到你在討論所謂封網的部分，我想先跟你討論一下，現在的方法跟你未來要做的方法，到底你要從哪一塊下去加強，這才比較具體啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：現在衛福部在整個性影像的部分，是接獲民眾的申訴，我們才能啟動，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們現在是被動嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：我們並沒有主動去巡查這些相關的影像。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：未來我們會主動巡查，是這樣的意思嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：是，我們需要有法律上面的授權，讓我們可以來做這件事情。"],["陳委員亭妃：有法令上的授權，就是這一次要修嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以修了之後，你們就可以有法令上的授權？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：你們可以主動巡查。"],["薛部長瑞元：在技術上面，如果說我們警政署這邊可以做，那就由警政署來做，如果不行的話，我們就委外來做。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有啊！所以我就說，你們不能現在講的跟到時候做的又是……法令的武器給你們了，然後呢？你們又在各個單位職權調整不好，一下子這個推給那個，那個推給那個。"],["薛部長瑞元：不會啦！"],["陳委員亭妃：結果最後沒有人處理。我現在就直接問，如果法令修了，武器給你們了，你們有法可以做了，那請問是誰要去執行？是警政署要去執行，還是衛福部要去執行？"],["薛部長瑞元：原則上應該是衛福部，因為它是法的主管機關。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，衛福部。"],["薛部長瑞元：但衛福部本身沒有能力做這個，所以我們想到的是，在短期之內可能要用委外的方式來做，給我們技術的支援，但是未來如果科技偵查法可以過，也許就……"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，你這樣講，關注的新聞跟關注的焦點，你這麼講，到時候真的修法之後，你們拿不出魄力來，我告訴你，你們會被罵翻喔！現在已經罵翻了喔！所以這個你要很小心喔！我覺得你不能再這樣的一個回答，也就是說，今天如果修法之後，你們要多久把這樣一個所謂的搜尋機制建立好？該給誰的，該給衛福部能夠有這樣的一個主導權，然後警政署加入，或是你要委外，委外要怎麼委外？這些在修法的時候，整個配套都要出來喔！"],["薛部長瑞元：當然。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，再來，現階段接獲申訴之後，他還要去確認這些網頁資料有沒有涉及違法的影像。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：修法之後就不用確立？"],["薛部長瑞元：要啊！就是由我們自行……"],["陳委員亭妃：自行確立？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：衛福部自行確立？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為本來確立是有分層級，比方說是地方政府還是中央政府，以後這個部分確立就是由衛福部來做。"],["陳委員亭妃：由衛福部直接確認，好，現在的方式是我們拿到了涉及違法的，就像剛剛部長所說的，過去可能一下子是地方政府，一下子是中央政府，因為過去就是我們拿到資料，如果判定是的話，我要求地方政府去要求業者下架，現在沒有了，我們中央政府直接處理，是這樣嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：直接處理之後，如果看到業者不配合呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們就直接封網。"],["陳委員亭妃：就直接封網？"],["薛部長瑞元：直接封網，沒有配不配合的問題。"],["陳委員亭妃：就直接封網？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以未來也沒有說像現在，我現在是在做對照，現在是你要要求業者自動下架，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以變成要有2道程序。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，未來我們修法之後是直接封網，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：技術有辦法嗎？我們不要說話說得這麼大聲，結果最後我們的技術沒辦法配合。"],["薛部長瑞元：這一次的封網其實就證明技術是有辦法的，就是說我們給了這個行政處分，數發部接到之後，它要直接做了，所以這個技術上面應該是沒有太大的問題。"],["陳委員亭妃：這是因為眾所矚目，所以你們非做不可啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊！"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！如果未來這樣的問題產生，不是眾所矚目、不是媒體這樣一直追？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我們還是做，還是把它封掉啊！"],["陳委員亭妃：就直接封嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：直接就封了啊！"],["陳委員亭妃：這個很重要喔！現在衛福部都說因為我們的法有限制，所以沒辦法，修法之後……"],["薛部長瑞元：我跟委員報告，未來這個情形會是這樣，通常如果說我們封了，業者抗議的話，那就會走到所謂的行政救濟，但是這種案子通常不會，它就會變成它又要去換個網域就重新復活，所以它一復活我們就繼續封……"],["陳委員亭妃：好，部長你很厲害，你知道我下面就要問你這個部分，你直接封網之後，它就換個身分再上。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：你有這個能力、人力，有能力跟人力去做這樣一個追逐遊戲嗎？有辦法嗎？而且如果今天它的IP位置在境外，或是它用所謂的隱匿身分，這怎麼辦？"],["薛部長瑞元：還是封啦！我剛剛講了……"],["陳委員亭妃：我知道還是封嘛！在你們封完之後，它去改變一個，然後你們再封，我是說你到最後有能力跟人力去做這個事情嗎？這個是我要提醒你的。"],["薛部長瑞元：我知道。"],["陳委員亭妃：我覺得我們現在既然要做，就要整套做好。"],["薛部長瑞元：對啦！"],["陳委員亭妃：這是我提醒你們的，這個一定會面臨到。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為業者它隨時改變身分很快，可是我們的政府有這樣的人力跟能力去做這個事情嗎？這個部分我覺得配套一定要出來。還有另外一個就是，我們現在對於像黃子佼，基本上他已經持有，在他所有的資料裡面，他自己的一個相關硬碟，都已經有7張所謂的未成年照片，居然我們現在就把他緩起訴。好，我們現在要加重刑責，未來加重持有刑責，那請問如果加重，最後端在法院這一端還是輕輕放過，該怎麼辦？你又說這就不是你了？"],["薛部長瑞元：這是……"],["陳委員亭妃：所以我覺得這個就是一體性的問題，這是大家在整個公共議題當中要怎麼面對，所以我們希望從上到下，包括我們法務部，包括衛福部，包括所有相關單位，包括NCC、數位部，其實大家都是要整個全力來防堵，為我們的下一代，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳亭妃委員發言。","接下來請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 檢討 112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政\n署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具\n體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.7434687500000003,"end":7.388468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.10909375,"end":13.699718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.699718750000002,"end":14.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.15096875,"end":19.504718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.825343750000002,"end":20.719718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.05721875,"end":22.457843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.031593750000003,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.31409375,"end":40.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.03721875,"end":52.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.28596875,"end":42.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.02846875,"end":43.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.31096875,"end":44.361593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.61471875,"end":44.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.54659375,"end":48.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.744718750000004,"end":50.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.20846875,"end":56.882843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.596593750000004,"end":53.744093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.815343750000004,"end":65.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.39659375,"end":63.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.92784375000001,"end":77.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.96409375,"end":84.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.16534375,"end":89.92409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.00471875000001,"end":87.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.26159375,"end":97.72034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.49721875,"end":95.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.99034375000001,"end":109.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.46596875,"end":105.78659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.04346875,"end":123.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.61659375,"end":114.24096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.97784375,"end":123.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.09596875000001,"end":129.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.11221875,"end":141.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.78284375,"end":130.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.71346875,"end":143.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.27846875,"end":144.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.56534375,"end":150.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.65284375000002,"end":157.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.62659375,"end":172.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.69221875000002,"end":169.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.54409375,"end":181.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.50034375,"end":182.73659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.73659375000003,"end":182.75346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.95596875,"end":185.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.97659375,"end":186.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.88784375,"end":186.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.97221875000002,"end":187.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.14096875,"end":189.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.15784375,"end":188.27159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.97596875000002,"end":190.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.70159375,"end":203.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.07096875000002,"end":205.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.22284375,"end":204.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.07471875000002,"end":229.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.70159375,"end":218.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.22346875000002,"end":226.64534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.09221875,"end":229.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.41284375,"end":231.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.26471875000001,"end":233.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.45846875,"end":236.71971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.37784375,"end":243.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.82471875000002,"end":239.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.98471875,"end":249.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.78096875000003,"end":253.17284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.59471875000003,"end":253.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.81409375,"end":253.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.96596875000003,"end":256.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.11346875,"end":258.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.40409375,"end":258.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.94409375000004,"end":260.96909375},{"speaker":"SP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對不對我們現在是被動嘛我們並沒有主動去巡查這些相關的影像未來我們會主動巡查是上的意思嗎?有法令上的授權就是這一次要修嘛所以修了之後我們就可以有法令上的授權你們可以主動巡查"},{"start":66.422,"end":83.756,"text":"技術上面的話那其實如果說我們的那個警政署這邊可以做那就由警政署來做如果不行的話我們就委外來做沒有啊所以嘛我就說你們不能現在講的跟到時候做的又是"},{"start":85.219,"end":108.45,"text":"法令的武器給你們了,然後呢,你們又在各個單位職權調整不好,兩名這個太那個,那個太那個,結果最後沒有人處理。我現在就直接問,如果法令修了,武器給你們了,你們有法可以做了,那請問是誰要去諮詢?是警政署要去諮詢,還是你衛福部要去諮詢?"},{"start":110.031,"end":127.974,"text":"原則上應該是衛福部因為他要有法的主管機關衛福部本身沒有能力做這個所以我們想到的是說在短期之內可能要用委外的方式來做給我們技術的支援但是未來如果說這個科技偵查法"},{"start":128.815,"end":143.232,"text":"你這樣講齁,這個關注的新聞跟關注的焦點齁,你這麼講,到時候真的修法之後,你們拿不出魄力來,我告訴你,你們被罵翻喔,現在已經罵翻了喔"},{"start":144.632,"end":169.122,"text":"所以這個你要很小心喔我覺得你不能再這樣的一個回答就是說今天如果修法之後你們要再多久把這樣的一個所謂的搜尋機制建立好該給誰的該給衛福部能夠有這樣的一個主導權然後警政署加入或是你要委外委外要怎麼委外你這些修法的時候整個配套都要出來喔當然這個"},{"start":170.362,"end":181.385,"text":"部長然後再來現階段接受到申訴之後他還要去確認這些網頁資料有沒有涉及違法的影像"},{"start":183.034,"end":202.606,"text":"那以後修法之後就不用確立?要啊,就是由我們自行確立,為服部自行確立因為本來的話是這個確立有分層級啦,比方說是地方政府還是中央政府那現在以後這一個部分的話確立就是由"},{"start":203.126,"end":231.504,"text":"有衛福部,直接確認。」來,我們現在的方式是我們拿到了涉及這個違法就像剛剛我們部長所說的過去可能一下子是地方政府、一下子中央政府未來全部因為過去就是我們拿到資料如果判定是的話我要求地方政府去要求業者下架那現在沒有了我們中央政府直接處理是這樣嗎?好,直接處理之後"},{"start":232.344,"end":260.611,"text":"那我們如果看到業者不配合呢?我們就直接封網就直接封網?對,直接封網,沒有配不配合的問題就直接封網,所以未來也沒有說像現在我現在是在做對照現在是你要要求業者自動下架對不對?好,未來我們修法之後是直接封網對不對?好,技術有辦法嗎?"},{"start":262.527,"end":287.312,"text":"技術有辦法嗎?各位我們的技術沒辦法配合這一次的封網其實就證明說技術是有辦法的就是說我們給了這個言論處分那速發部接到之後的話他就直接做了所以這個技術上面應該是沒有太大的問題這是因為眾所矚目啊"},{"start":288.467,"end":298.508,"text":"所以你們非做不可啊對啊那如果未來未來這樣的問題產生不是眾所矚目不是媒體這樣一直追"},{"start":299.631,"end":318.44,"text":"這我們還是做,還是把它封掉啊。就直接封嗎?對,直接就封了啊。這個很重要喔。我們不希望未來,現在衛福部都說因為我們的法有限制,所以沒辦法。好,修法之後。我跟委員報告,現在未來的話,那這個情形會這樣。"},{"start":319.961,"end":346.266,"text":"通常如果說我們封了業者抗議的話那就會走到所謂的行政救濟但是這種案子的話通常不會他就會變成說他又要去換個網域就重新復活所以他一復活我們就繼續封部長你很厲害你知道我下面就要問你這一個你直接封網之後他就換個身份再上那你有這個能力、人力"},{"start":347.754,"end":363.295,"text":"能力跟人力去做這樣的一個追逐遊戲嗎?有辦法嗎?而且如果說他今天他的IP位置在境外或是他用所謂的隱匿身份那這怎麼辦?"},{"start":364.641,"end":377.886,"text":"還是封啦,如果是,我剛剛講的。不是,我知道還是封嘛,他還是封完之後,他去改變一個,然後你們再封。我是說你到最後,有能力跟人力去做這個事情嗎?"},{"start":379.574,"end":404.451,"text":"這就是我提醒你的,我覺得我們現在既然要做,要整個做就好了這是我提醒你們的,這個一定會面臨到因為業者一個,他隨時改變身份很快可是我們的政府有這樣的人力跟能力去做這個事嗎這個部分我覺得配套一定要出來所以還有另外一個就是"},{"start":405.131,"end":431.657,"text":"我們現在對於像黃子江他基本上已經持有在他所有的資料裡面他自己的一個相關硬碟都已經有7張所謂的未成年未成年的這個照片那居然我們現在就把他還其數號我們現在加重刑責未來嘛加重持有刑責好那請問"},{"start":433.359,"end":437.384,"text":"那如果加重最後端在法院這一端那該怎麼辦還是輕輕翻過該怎麼辦"},{"start":441.349,"end":466.25,"text":"你又說這都不是你啊所以我覺得這個就是一體性的問題我覺得這是大家在這整個公共議題當中要怎麼面對所以我們也希望從上到下包括我們法務部包括衛福部包括所有相關單位包括NCC數位部其實大家都是要整個全力來防堵為我們的下一代謝謝"},{"start":468.427,"end":471.158,"text":"好,謝謝陳廷飛委員發言接下來請楊瓊英委員發言"}]}},{"id":"151671","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151671","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb3fa1853d6463d2bad6abc9c09ba589754eadb1108e4b844322904d3b4743e67c25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"11:39:33 - 11:48:56","影片長度":"00:09:23","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案。二、審查內政部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案。三、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案。四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。\n(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案。\n(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案。(六)委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":563,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:48:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:39:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":773,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（11時39分）謝謝主席，有請林部長。"],["主席：好，請部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["羅委員美玲：部長好。部長，我今天要跟部長討論的這個議題跟今天的修法是有關係的，就是有關於非本國籍無依兒少的兒童權利要如何保障。根據我們移民署的資料，到了2021年底在臺灣72萬名移工當中，女性產業移工加上社福移工超過35萬人，這些女性移工大部分還是屬於青壯年階段，所以他們在臺灣可能就會自由戀愛，甚至到後面在臺灣會有懷孕生子的狀況，當然這就一定會衍生出跟工作權益及育兒有關的一些問題。我國國籍法是屬於屬人主義，有些逃逸移工──非本國籍的母親，在生產之後就完全消失、失聯了，甚至將嬰幼兒拋棄，在現行法規之下，我們就是定義為非本國籍無依兒少，也是我們俗稱的黑戶寶寶。","對於這些移工的寶寶，基本上我們可以分成四大類，第一類，他的生父如果是臺灣人，母親是外籍移工，這還比較簡單，因為我們是屬人主義，所以這個孩子的國籍基本上大概沒有問題。第二類，如果是爸爸不詳，不知道爸爸是誰，而媽媽是外籍的失聯移工，這個媽媽帶著孩子可能藏匿在工寮、果園、山區，到處流竄打零工，這些孩子就欠缺托育照顧跟教育。第三類可以說是第二類的延伸，如果這個媽媽被查緝到了，可是他的身分非常明確，他是誰、來自於哪個國家，因為被查緝到了之後就被遣返回國，可是在回國之前並沒有勾稽到這個寶寶，寶寶就留在臺灣了，可是媽媽的母國也不接受在國外出生的這個孩子，孩子可能就變成人球，可能一輩子就得留在臺灣了。第四類是生父、生母都不詳，媽媽是誰不知道，是哪一個國籍也不曉得，有些逃逸的外籍女移工可能在醫院生了寶寶之後就走了，所提供的可能全部都是假資料。","本席在上一屆2020年剛上任的時候，我就有接到南投埔基醫院的陳情，他們醫院裡面常常有一些失聯的外籍移工到那邊去生產，之後就把寶寶丟著了，醫院還必須要自行吸收相關費用，寶寶後續要怎麼安置，他們並不知道，所以當初我還找了行政單位跟南投縣政府來協商，因此我們才提出這一次國籍法第四條的修法。修法之前我也跟陳建仁院長還有部長這邊討論過，陳建仁院長那時候聽到這個狀況，他第一時間表示非常的支持，他說這是人權法案，我們今天修的第四條，我們解決了第四類的問題，因為過去這些生父、生母不詳的黑戶寶寶，他們除非在成年以前被國人收養，他們可以申請入籍臺灣，如果沒有的話，只是社福單位接手的話，他們要等到18歲，之前是20歲，成年以後才能夠申請臺灣的國籍。也就是說，這些孩子他們未來都是要在臺灣生活，因此我們才修了第四類，今天如果修法過的話，我們只是解決了第四類的問題。","可是我想請教部長的是關於第二類、第三類，到底我們的態度是如何？這些孩子的生母是確定的，可是因為屬人主義，他們可能沒有辦法申請成為我國的國民，但這孩子可能一輩子都得留在臺灣，像這個問題要如何解決呢？請問部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員，跟您報告，其實我們本來就有相關機制來處理，本來這樣子的兒少大概有3,612人，目前已經有2,080人已經協助處理完，然後出境，所以它是有一個機制在……"],["羅委員美玲：所以是出境，但我想請教的是那些要留在臺灣的呢？"],["林部長右昌：沒有，不是他留在臺灣，因為現在最大問題就是他隱匿，他並沒有進到我們的系統、進到我們機制裡面。"],["羅委員美玲：對。"],["林部長右昌：所以剛剛在講他如果隱匿、藏匿著的話，我們不會知道他在什麼地方，當然就沒有辦法協助他。比較重要的剛剛提到，如果今天他願意出來的話，相關的教育權，包括他的健康權是沒有問題的，即便他是沒有國籍、沒有戶口，他一樣是可以受到保障。"],["羅委員美玲：如果媽媽是外籍失聯移工，如果他願意出面的話，讓這孩子出來，是不是他一樣還是有所謂的受教權？"],["林部長右昌：就是孩子出來……"],["羅委員美玲：就是孩子本身。"],["林部長右昌：就是孩子出來了，我們有接觸到的，那這部分我們就可以給予協助，但沒辦法幫忙的是不知道他在什麼地方。"],["羅委員美玲：可是你知道嗎，有很多失聯移工就是因為害怕會被抓，所以完全不願意出面，像這個的話我們有怎麼樣勸導的機制嗎？這有辦法嗎？署長。"],["鐘署長景琨：跟委員報告，對於父母隱匿，等於是父不詳，然後母親失聯這種情形，如果我們知道的話，現在有機制嘛，就是透過協尋，國內是6個月、國外是3個月，在這種協尋期間就有社福機構暫時安置，協尋不著的時候，我們會暫依生母的國籍發給他……"],["羅委員美玲：外僑居留證。"],["鐘署長景琨：對，外僑居留證。如果確認是無國籍的話，會給他無國籍的……"],["羅委員美玲：像第三類他變成人球了，母國也不接受他，根本沒有辦法遣返回去，那怎麼辦呢？就是媽媽已經回去了，可是母國又不接受這個孩子，這個孩子以後還是得留在臺灣啊！你沒有辦法遣返啊！"],["鐘署長景琨：是。"],["羅委員美玲：這怎麼辦呢？"],["鐘署長景琨：這種情形就是剛剛我講的，會由戶政司認定為無國籍，後續就可以辦理……"],["羅委員美玲：可以比照我們修法……"],["鐘署長景琨：對。"],["羅委員美玲：就是第三類後續其實可以比照我們今天所要修的國籍法第四條，是不是？是這樣子嗎？"],["鐘署長景琨：是。"],["羅委員美玲：所以到時第三類的問題其實是可以解決的，如果確定他母國不接受這個孩子的話，臺灣是可以接受的，是不是？"],["鐘署長景琨：如果確認不是他的國家的國籍，這個小孩子後續我們會由內政部戶政司來認定。"],["羅委員美玲：是，謝謝署長。當然，第二類可能是一個很大的麻煩，如果他不出面的話，孩子可能也要等到媽媽被遣返的時候帶著他離開，這可能是比較大的問題。"],["鐘署長景琨：跟委員報告……"],["羅委員美玲：後續又會碰到可能母國不接受這個孩子的問題，可是問題前面教育方面可能已經跟不上臺灣的腳步了，是會有這個問題吧？"],["鐘署長景琨：是，如果都隱匿的話，老實講，他是沒有進到我剛剛講的這個機制裡面，其實目前的機制，事實上是只要他願意，我們的社福機構就會報到內政部……"],["羅委員美玲：這個可能要多去勸導。"],["鐘署長景琨：是。"],["羅委員美玲：因為我發現很多人都怕被抓，所以這部分就是完全不出面的。"],["鐘署長景琨：委員講的，如果已經經過我們查處到案，或者是怎麼樣，原則上他是有依兒少，就是說他已經知道他的生母是誰，對這種目前我們也有機制，對於有依兒少，原則上我們不收容，我們的立場是希望他隨著生母一起回到他的母國。"],["羅委員美玲：是，沒錯。如果是這個問題，那還能夠解決，我現在提到的是有些媽媽的母國不接受這個孩子，可能就比較有問題。","這部分我想我們之後再來討論，因為我的時間到了，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅美玲委員的發言。","現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時48分）","繼續開會（12時）"],["主席：好，現在繼續開會。","下一位質詢的是黃仁委員，黃仁委員、黃仁委員，黃仁委員不在。","再下一位沈伯洋委員、沈伯洋委員，沈伯洋委員不在。","再來是莊瑞雄召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-14","speakers":["吳琪銘","莊瑞雄","羅美玲","陳玉珍","黃捷","陳培瑜","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","吳沛憶","王美惠","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","李柏毅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","黃國昌","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳菁徽","陳冠廷","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案；二、審查內政\n部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)\n行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六\n條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國\n籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員\n林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員莊\n瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案、 (十五)委員林岱樺等\n17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案、(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四\n條及第七條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.13221875,"end":0.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.48596875,"end":5.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.19471875,"end":33.392843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.844093750000001,"end":8.434718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.56159375,"end":34.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.35471875,"end":135.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.21221875,"end":141.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.59534375,"end":146.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.84346875,"end":151.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.41659375,"end":155.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.58471875,"end":157.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.25534375,"end":161.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.47409375,"end":167.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.54471875000002,"end":254.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.19784375,"end":257.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.11721875,"end":276.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.64596875,"end":282.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.25221875,"end":290.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.00659375000004,"end":291.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.68159375,"end":301.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.77721875000003,"end":303.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":302.73471875,"end":340.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.35471875,"end":305.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.48534375,"end":305.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.99909375000004,"end":313.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.06909375000004,"end":323.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.86409375,"end":344.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.02346875,"end":349.64721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.98471875,"end":362.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.63846875,"end":352.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.71846875,"end":354.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.78096875,"end":358.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.92846875000004,"end":362.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.10096875000005,"end":362.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.23596875000004,"end":372.61409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.30596875000003,"end":374.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.80346875000004,"end":385.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.83971875000003,"end":398.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.92221875,"end":404.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.04784375,"end":405.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.68909375000004,"end":410.61659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.10596875000005,"end":413.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.67971875,"end":412.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.77659375,"end":412.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.02534375000005,"end":419.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.69534375,"end":426.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.66471875,"end":433.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.73971875,"end":433.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.16159375,"end":434.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.22471875,"end":443.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.54409375,"end":460.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.99096875000004,"end":446.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.47909375,"end":453.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.71534375000005,"end":453.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.38096875,"end":469.22346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.43534375,"end":463.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.51909375,"end":468.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.90284375000005,"end":490.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.91346875000005,"end":482.01471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.01471875000004,"end":482.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.62096875000003,"end":491.68409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.68409375000005,"end":491.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.83596875,"end":502.93971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.63159375000004,"end":510.49971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.20034375000006,"end":516.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.19159375000004,"end":511.76534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":515.41034375,"end":539.6428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.3728437500001,"end":542.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.25034375,"end":540.6384687500001},{"speaker":"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11:46:58","影片長度":"00:05:41","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案。\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員黃建賓等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-9"},"duration":341,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:46:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:41:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":755,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時41分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。2021年我回到民間社會了以後，接到一個檢舉就開始追蹤，這個牽涉到我們臺中火力發電廠有一個129億的標案，其中有一個基樁工程，基樁要灌水泥，上面的結構物才會穩，而這個基樁工程造假。當然接到這個檢舉以後，我必須要實事求是的去看，一看後發現還滿誇張的，同樣的單據有不同的出貨內容；然後實際上面的單據跟假的單據中，虛灌的水泥量大概多了一倍以上。把這些單據全部都蒐集完了以後，我大概在法律上面的確信是，這一定有造假的問題，所以我非常的關心，在2021年9月的時候，我就具狀向臺北地檢署提出告發，告發完了以後，因為我已經公開揭露這件事情了，那個時候台電公司他們有針對這件事情做了一些說明，他們說這個水泥量初步研判尚屬合理，沒有發現明顯變造的痕跡，也沒有辦法認為這個公司有偽造的狀況。","我們實際來看最後的結果，今年4月，就是這個月，弘展公司偽造水泥出廠單，獲利兩千多萬，已經正式被起訴了，我看那個起訴書的內容，跟我們當初檢舉的內容，基本上是一致的，但是它的規模、它造假的狀況，讓人怵目驚心。我具體的跟部長報告，從2019到2020年，偽造了1,246張水泥出廠單；應該使用2萬將近3萬噸的水泥，結果只使用了一萬七千多噸，大概實際使用的水泥比他說要用的水泥只有達六成；偽造施工紀錄表，甚至在鑽芯取樣的時候，是廠商先拿假的樣體偷偷搬到現場去，搬到現場去之後，我也不曉得，鑽芯取樣的時候，現場應該要有人監督啊，但是他們沒有人監督，就拿假的東西出來。現在取出了120支基樁，其中有97支是造假的。我看完這個狀況以後怵目驚心！我只擔心一件事情，第一個，當初台電的調查是怎麼做的？第二個，中火這個工程真的安全嗎？這件事情部長應該有掌握吧？上一屆國會已經有委員提過這樣的問題，甚至在總質詢的時候，蘇貞昌院長都承諾要正視。"],["王部長美花：因為委員今天臨時提這樣的一個問題，如果我的印象沒錯的話，這個部分台電也有請專家來看，有關委員講的，第一個，造假是一個問題，第二個，安全是一個問題，安全部分我記得的理解是那個專家判定好像是沒有問題，造假的部分，坦白講，我不太記得後續台電是怎麼處理的。"],["黃委員國昌：這個案子拖了滿久的，從我2021年具狀告發到現在2024年4月起訴，所以我是利用這次質詢提醒部長這件事情：兩個層次當中，造假已經是確定的，所以台電該檢討的是，當初的行政調查到底是怎麼做的，因為我今天秀出當初台電的行政調查報告給部長看，台電全部在文過飾非啊！第二個層次是安全性，現在我一個最基本的問題是，如果當初的行政調查報告都已經sloppy到這種程度了，我們要不要重新檢視？當初台電告訴社會大眾說安全沒有問題，這件事值得信任嗎？部長。"],["王部長美花：我記得台電是有請專業的去判斷安全有沒有問題。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係啦！部長，你所謂台電請專業的來做判斷這件事情，那個專業的報告是不是可以提供給各位委員？因為大家都很關心這個事嘛！","主席站起來了，我只問最後一個事情：為什麼這個違法前科累累、這麼嚴重的廠商到目前為止都還沒有刊登政府公報、予以停權？台電有沒有報？還是行政程序沒有做完？部長可以回去瞭解嗎？"],["王部長美花：這個我再瞭解一下。"],["黃委員國昌：這種爛廠商絕對要把它踢出去啦！絕對不要再讓它做政府工程了！可以嗎？"],["王部長美花：我再瞭解，是。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：後續再請經濟部去進行瞭解。","好，謝謝。","接下來請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-9","speakers":["邱議瑩","黃建賓","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林思銘","林岱樺","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)本院\n委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及\n第三十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.063468750000002,"end":9.548468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.869093750000001,"end":10.695968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.872218750000002,"end":17.918468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.918468750000002,"end":17.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.96909375,"end":18.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.36971875,"end":24.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.53346875,"end":28.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.05596875,"end":32.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.56596875,"end":33.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.96659375,"end":35.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.04221875,"end":38.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.096593750000004,"end":42.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.12971875,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.665343750000005,"end":45.610343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.234718750000006,"end":47.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.517218750000005,"end":49.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.710968750000006,"end":51.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.98909375,"end":52.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.73159375,"end":53.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.99721875,"end":55.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.017843750000004,"end":58.24971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.570343750000006,"end":58.789718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.36346875,"end":62.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.586593750000006,"end":64.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.05034375000001,"end":65.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.94471875,"end":66.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.36221875000001,"end":69.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.45471875,"end":72.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.61034375,"end":73.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.87596875,"end":74.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.51284375,"end":78.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.25909375,"end":83.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.74784375,"end":85.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.58721875,"end":89.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.67096875,"end":98.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.47971875,"end":100.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.55096875000001,"end":102.34409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.47471875000001,"end":103.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.92596875000001,"end":107.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.79471875,"end":108.95909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.53284375000001,"end":111.06846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.99659375,"end":114.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.51096875,"end":117.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.45971875000001,"end":118.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.45534375000001,"end":120.29909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.78846875,"end":123.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.87659375000001,"end":124.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.56846875000001,"end":126.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.06596875000001,"end":130.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.26346875000002,"end":133.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.08596875,"end":140.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.58284375,"end":145.69596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.33721875,"end":147.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.24409375000002,"end":155.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.59721875,"end":158.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.04409375,"end":170.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.72159375,"end":177.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.58534375000002,"end":181.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.75784375,"end":183.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.59284375000001,"end":186.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.14096875,"end":187.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.11971875,"end":188.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.21659375000002,"end":191.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.06846875000002,"end":201.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.44221875000002,"end":231.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.81346875000003,"end":205.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.75846875000002,"end":235.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.91409375,"end":237.52971875000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11:41:09","影片長度":"00:07:06","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、處理或審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等21案。\n二、審查：\n（一）行政院函請審議「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）本院委員黃捷等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）本院委員黃建賓等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）本院委員林思銘等23人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十二條及第二十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（五）本院委員王美惠等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（六）本院委員邱議瑩等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（七）本院委員蔡易餘等20人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（八）本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正草案」案。\n（九）本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（十）本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n（十一）本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-9"},"duration":426,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:41:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:34:03+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":731,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（11時34分）謝謝召委邱委員。我們請部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：部長好。謝謝部長之前參加我召開的中小企業座談會，前兩天我也看到你到臺南參加陳委員的中小企業座談會，所以你應該瞭解現在的中小企業，尤其是傳統產業的中小企業，算是慢慢的恢復，但還沒有期待中的快，我們當然是期待今年年底的景氣會越來越好，在景氣還沒有完全恢復的當下，我們今天要討論工廠管理輔導法，今天的修法我當然全力支持，但是工廠管理輔導法在前次修法中，為的就是輔導農地上的工廠可以合法，我們一步一步的輔導，所以我也認為我們的方向是正確的，但是在執行面上，部長，施政要無縫接軌，我也希望未來的經濟部能夠好好的瞭解工廠管理輔導法修法過後，正在申請特定工廠的這些中小企業、傳統產業所碰到的困境，在景氣已經不好的時候，他也有心要合法，但是在合法的過程裡面，如同剛剛其他幾個委員講的，真的是聲聲慢，而且碰到了很多的困境。","我舉一個例子，第一個碰到的是，我申請納管了，但是地方政府第一線的公務人員，不同的公務人員有不同的認定標準，而你也知道，現在地方政府審理改善計畫的速度很慢，非常的慢，在這樣的情況下，第一個，我們除了要求地方政府增加人力，也要增加他的專業度，而且他們審查的標準，應該全臺灣要有一致性啦！這個我們經濟部要介入協調啦！這是第一個，雖然我每次問這一題，你們經濟部都跟我說，有協調、有協調，但是為什麼各地方政府在審認的一些標準、一些細節上的審認標準還是不一樣，不是只有我提而已，剛剛其他委員也有提到，因為這些申請納管的特定工廠、申請中的這些工廠，樣態非常的多，因為樣態多、碰到的問題多，各地方政府在審認的標準就會出現不一樣，我覺得這個問題經濟部責無旁貸，一定要協助，而且要明確地告知地方政府，這個審認標準要儘量有一致性。","還有，效率要提高，現在的效率非常的緩慢，像臺中市就我知道的，可能改善計畫的審查都還不到一半，而這衍生出一個什麼問題？衍生出我們其他的配套問題，之前我有跟經濟部中辦講過，其中有一個配套是什麼？現在的特定工廠正在申請中的所謂農地上的工廠，他申請納管了，他的改善計畫也送了，但是卡在臺中市政府還沒有審查完畢，所以變成他的外籍移工的合法派遣出現了問題，這個問題還不是我們經濟部中辦幫產業界想到的，還是產業界來拜託民意代表、拜託立法委員說：委員，這個時間就要到了，為什麼我們經濟部都沒有主動幫我們中小企業發聲？居然放任勞動部啟動專案，從今年3月19號之後就要開始稽查，這是矛盾的！這是矛盾的！因為你們根本沒有好好的把配套搞清楚。","好啦！我來開協調會了，勞動部表示，經濟部是不是應該發個函說，現在特定工廠申請的改善計畫因為審查速度緩慢，所以還沒有審查完畢，是不是可以給勞動部一個依據，讓它知道這個狀況？勞動部也說，它可以把AB廠外籍移工合法申請派遣的效期予以延期，結果你們經濟部還不發文！"],["王部長美花：不會啦！不會啦！應該……"],["何委員欣純：就是沒有發文，因為這是我親自協調的……"],["連署長錦漳：謝謝委員。"],["何委員欣純：勞動部知道這個情況了之後，自己予以延長了，你們經濟部不是應該站在產業輔導的角度嗎？而且這個特定工廠正在申請當中，而這個改善計畫沒有審查完竣，並不是這些申請者的責任，不是他們的問題，是政府效能的問題，結果我們沒有幫忙解決問題，這是第一個。","第二個，我必須要提醒部長，我們現在正在申請特定工廠的改善計畫裡面，我之前就提過，我們放任了地方很多代辦業者獅子大開口，從20萬、30萬、50萬到100萬不等，在幫這些特定工廠來申請，現在這個改善計畫的撰寫，也一樣要代辦費，而且還不包含你們裡面要求的水利設施、消防改善、環保改善或者生活污水評估，你知道嗎？這林林總總十幾項裡面，光是一個生活污水評估，你知道要價多少嗎？另外再開價50萬！","既然政府有心輔導它合法，可是在代辦費用之外，要求的改善計畫中的每一項，林林總總的改善要求裡面，對中小企業來講，每一項都要錢，既然我們政府輔導團的預算編了，則我們輔導團的作用又在哪裡？"],["王部長美花：不過，我想趁這個機會請委員去轉達，第一個，那個改善計畫我們有範本；第二個，我們政府的經費，確實有像委員講的，有輔導團來協助它，這個部分就可以降低委員講的，在外面有被不當喊價的問題……"],["何委員欣純：現在進入改善計畫的每一項目通通要錢，所以我希望……"],["王部長美花：絕對不會是委員剛才講的這樣，那樣的金額是不合理的。"],["何委員欣純：請經濟部好好去瞭解清楚，好不好？"],["主席：請產發署來跟您說明。"],["何委員欣純：請產發署來跟我說明，書面報告也給我，我們好好地把細項搞清楚。"],["主席：好。"],["何委員欣純：我們不要讓中小企業有心合法的這些業者變成一層皮、一層皮不斷地被扒，好不好？以上，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。請產發署找個時間跟何委員聯繫一下，好嗎？"],["連局長錦漳：好，我們會跟委員說明。"],["主席：接下來我們請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":186,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-9","speakers":["邱議瑩","黃建賓","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","林思銘","林岱樺","張嘉郡","鄭天財Sra 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人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案、(八)本院委員馬文君等18人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四及第三十一條條文修正\n草案」案、(九)本院委員鍾佳濱等17人擬具「工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案」案、(十)本院\n委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及第三十九條條文修正\n草案」案、(十一)本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「工廠管理輔導法第二十八條之十四、第三十一條及\n第三十九條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133301_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.1359687500000004,"end":5.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.00471875,"end":6.814718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.450968750000001,"end":35.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.501593750000001,"end":13.868468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.06346875,"end":35.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.51909375,"end":100.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.602843750000005,"end":40.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.78721875000001,"end":103.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.48721875000001,"end":105.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.73596875000001,"end":108.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.94221875000001,"end":109.78596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":109.88721875,"end":110.39346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.78159375000001,"end":113.31284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.52784375,"end":118.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.25284375000001,"end":120.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.49721875,"end":122.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.61096875000001,"end":207.20534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.99846875,"end":211.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.18784375,"end":214.93409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.64284375000003,"end":216.46971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.33034375000003,"end":238.81221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":240.73596875,"end":241.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.03096875000003,"end":245.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.95034375,"end":247.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.78971875000002,"end":248.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.66721875000002,"end":250.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.87784375,"end":274.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":276.00471875,"end":278.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.11846875000003,"end":278.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.38409375000003,"end":279.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.51909375,"end":281.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.14721875000004,"end":282.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.87284375,"end":287.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.15471875000003,"end":302.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.03846875,"end":345.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.64784375000005,"end":351.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.01784375,"end":373.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.82971875000004,"end":371.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.03596875000005,"end":396.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.67159375,"end":384.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.99034375,"end":396.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":396.96471875000003,"end":397.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.03221875,"end":406.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.58471875000004,"end":399.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.59721875,"end":400.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.81221875,"end":400.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.21284375000005,"end":407.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.97159375,"end":422.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.89971875000003,"end":407.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.59159375,"end":408.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.60846875000004,"end":413.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.23221875,"end":413.24909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.40096875,"end":413.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.51909375,"end":413.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.62034375,"end":413.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.63721875000005,"end":414.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.81846875,"end":414.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.91971875,"end":415.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.22721875,"end":420.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.74971875,"end":423.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.00284375,"end":423.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.12096875000003,"end":425.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":423.13784375,"end":424.15034375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.131,"end":4.962,"text":"第三十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12.569,"end":34.671,"text":"副長好,謝謝你之前也去參加過我召開的中小企業座談會那前兩天我也看到你到台南參加陳委員的中小企業座談會那我想你就了解說現在中小企業的尤其在傳統產業的中小企業恢復的慢慢還沒有期待中的快"},{"start":35.612,"end":57.211,"text":"那我們當然是期待今年年底的景氣會越來越好那在這個當下景氣還沒有完全恢復的當下那我們今天在討論工廠管理輔導法今天的修法我當然全力支持但是呢工廠管理輔導法在前次的修法我們為了就是要輔導農地上的工廠可以合法"},{"start":57.711,"end":67.094,"text":"那我們一部的一部的和呃輔導那所以呢我也認為說呃我們方向是正確的但是在執行面上我還是要請經濟部部長呃施政是要無縫接軌我也希望未來的經濟部能夠好好的去了解現在呃在工廠管理輔導法我們修法過後正在申請特定工廠的這些中小企業傳統產業他碰到的困境"},{"start":86.46,"end":87.401,"text":"第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆第11屆"},{"start":114.608,"end":136.287,"text":"所以地方政府現在你也知道他在審理的時候改善計畫很慢非常的慢那在這麼情況之下第一個我們除了要求地方政府要增加人力那也要增加他的專業度而且他們審查的標準應該要全台灣有一致性這個我們經濟部要介入協調"},{"start":138.028,"end":142.513,"text":"這第一個啦雖然我每次問這一題你們經濟部都跟我說有協調有協調但是呢那為什麼各地方政府在審認的一些標準細節上的審認標準還是不一樣我想不是我提而已剛剛有其他的委員提到這第一點因為呢這些申請納管的特定工廠申請中的這些工廠樣態非常的多"},{"start":161.892,"end":162.433,"text":"負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任負責任"},{"start":178.413,"end":207.045,"text":"那還有效率要提高現在的效率非常的緩慢所以呢像臺中市我知道的他可能改善計畫的一個審查都還不到一半而這衍生一個什麼問題衍生出我們其他的配套的問題之前我跟經濟部總辦講過其中一個配套是什麼現在的特定工廠正在申請中的所謂的這個農地上的工廠他申請納管了但是他的改善計畫也送了"},{"start":208.152,"end":214.725,"text":"但是卡在台中市政府還沒有審查完畢所以他變成什麼他的外籍移工的合法派遣"},{"start":215.72,"end":231.089,"text":"出現了問題,這個問題還不是我們經濟部中辦幫產業界想到的,這個問題還是因為產業界來拜託民意代表,就是拜託立法委員說委員這個時間就要到了,為什麼我們經濟部都沒有主動幫我們中小企業來發聲,放任了這個勞動部還要啟動專案,要從今年的3月19號之後就要開始稽查,這是矛盾的,"},{"start":243.046,"end":244.488,"text":"二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":263.488,"end":268.169,"text":"一個依據讓他知道這個狀況勞動部說那我可以把這個A、B廠的外籍移工的這個合法申請派錢的這個效期我可以延期你們經濟部還不發文欸你們經濟部還不發文欸就是沒有發文因為這是我親自協調的所以勞動部他知道這個情況了之後自己延長了"},{"start":288.24,"end":296.141,"text":"你們經濟部不是應該就站在這個產業輔導嗎而且呢這個特定工廠正在申請當中這個改善計畫沒有審查完畢不是這些申請者的責任啊不是他們的問題啊是政府考量的問題啊結果我們沒有幫忙解決問題這是第一個第二個我必須要提醒部長我們現在正在申請特定工廠的改善計畫裡面我"},{"start":315.185,"end":321.049,"text":"三十萬、三十萬、五十萬到一百萬不等再幫這些特定工廠來申請,那現在這個改善計畫的撰寫也一樣要代辦費,而且還不包含你們裡面要求的水利設施、消防改善、環保改善、或者生活污水評估,你知道嗎?這零零總總"},{"start":345.785,"end":351.669,"text":"十幾項裡面光是一個生活污水評估你知道就要價多少嗎另外再開價五十萬你像那一個中小企業我們既然政府有心輔導他合法可是呢在這個代辦費用之外我們要求的這個改善計畫的每一項零零種種的改善要求裡面對中小企業來講每一項都要錢"},{"start":369.901,"end":371.402,"text":"那為什麼我們政府的輔導團的這個預算編了我們輔導團的作用又在哪裡不過我想也趁這個機會請委員去轉達第一個我們那個改善計畫我們有範本那第二個我們政府的經費我們政府經費確實有像委員講有輔導團來協助他那這個部分就可以降低委員講在外面被"},{"start":392.816,"end":393.977,"text":"二、審查：一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、處理或審查一、"},{"start":421.13,"end":421.891,"text":"第二十八條之十四、第三十一條條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"151668","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151668","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb346e8327f01a7be9c5a1f541440a910baeadb1108e4b844321b3ed4d2a5df194e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"11:35:22 - 11:45:24","影片長度":"00:10:02","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案4案。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":602,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:45:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:35:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":727,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（11時35分）謝謝主席。我請核安會主委。"],["主席：請陳主委。"],["陳主任委員東陽：吳委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：主委好。0403發生花蓮大地震，全臺灣大家都非常關心，世界上很多國家都在關心臺灣這次地震之後，我們於第一時間以及後續的震災處置。一直到現在，其實花蓮餘震不斷，也因此有一件事大家都很關心。在這次花蓮地震當中，我們核電廠有沒有發生相關災情？第一時間怎麼處置？"],["陳主任委員東陽：因為是發生在早上7點多、快到8點時，所以我們第一時間就馬上去了解所有可能的情況，應該不到9點，我們都已經釐清了，馬上做因應。主要是核一廠、核二廠燃料池的水有溢出來，加起來大概是3,500公升，後來做了一些清理、除污，目前是沒有問題的。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以是核一、核二廠燃料池的水，因為……請說明。"],["陳主任委員東陽：剛剛很抱歉，應該是核一廠的一號機跟二號機。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以是核一廠的一號機跟二號的燃料池，因為發生地震所以有溢出的情形，總共大約是3,500公升？目前已經完成回收處理？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：有關燃料池，上一次我們在這裡有討論到，基本上都差不多是滿載的情況，但因為地震發生，使得燃料池的池水溢出來是第一次發生嗎？過去有沒有這樣的情況？"],["陳主任委員東陽：過去應該沒有。"],["吳委員沛憶：就是第一次發生？"],["陳主任委員東陽：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：因為燃料池的水不是一般的水，溢出來之後，回收處置的工作該怎麼進行？大概有多少人力？你們的工作人員以什麼樣的方式處理回收？回收到什麼地方？再裝回燃料池裡面嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：沒有，是這樣子的。第一個，確定不到廠區外；第二，燃料池有瀉孔，會流到某個地方聚集，所以可以計算出流出的量是多少。"],["吳委員沛憶：集中做回收？然後就放置在那個地方？"],["陳主任委員東陽：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：燃料池的水雖然是因為地震關係而溢出來，但大家其實還是會擔心。你們第一時間做了回收，也做了檢測，後續也持續監測，目前沒有安全問題？"],["陳主任委員東陽：沒有。"],["吳委員沛憶：除了核電廠以外，清大的水池式反應器是不是也有發生溢出的情形？核安會有沒有掌握？"],["陳主任委員東陽：有。"],["吳委員沛憶：有什麼樣的情況？"],["陳主任委員東陽：比較少量，大概10公升，就像委員的PowerPoint寫的。我們在第一時間於本會官網告知民眾這樣的訊息，當然，最重要的是目前安全無虞。"],["吳委員沛憶：因為就在校園裡，所以我希望核安會後續可以持續掌握情況，持續追蹤，好不好？講到燃料池的滿載，也就是我們現在討論的，到底臺灣適不適合讓核電廠延役？我想核電廠延役很大的一個考量，就是要從專業角度來考量安全性問題。現行有沒有法規可以管制核子反應器設施？現行有沒有法規？"],["陳主任委員東陽：有，我們會裡面掌管非常多法規、法律，如核子設施反應法、核子反應器設施管制法，此外還有幾十條的子法，內容相當多，包含如何取得執照……"],["吳委員沛憶：我們的核子反應器設施管制法裡面，就是在管制我們反應器的興建與運轉，其中總則第一條明確寫到本法是要管制核子反應器設施來確保公眾安全，所以公眾安全絕對是我們在做這個反應器管制上很重要的一點，目前在法裡面也要求我們要去做管制跟管理。現在本院（立法院）有不同的委員提出了要推動核子反應器設施延役條例草案，對此，本席是反對的，因為我認為我們現行已有法規在進行核子反應器的管制，若直接在法案名稱裡面就入法推動，我認為這個是侵害了我們行政權裁決的範圍。因為究竟要不要延役，這應該不是政治問題，它應該是一個科學跟安全的問題，我們立法院沒有這麼大，如果說立法院的立委為了什麼事情都可以立一個法條來決定的話，以後我們不需要專家、我們以後不需要專業公共政策的決策了！所以我還是希望公共政策的討論，尤其是核電的使用、核電廠的延役牽涉到公眾的安全性，就應該要回歸到專業、回歸到科學來進行討論，我覺得這才是根本之道，所以我反對立法院直接要求要推動核子反應器延役而要把它入法，立法院真的沒有這麼大，所以這一點我希望我們可以一起努力為臺灣的公眾安全來把關。","最後我想要跟主委討論的是，因為我在看一個教授的論文，過去在1985年的時候，當時第一次發現了我們臺灣有輻射屋，1985年就是我出生前的兩年，然後，第一個發現的輻射屋是在哪裡呢？是在我們臺北市民生別墅的啟元牙科，我為什麼要把這個案件提出來講？這一件發生的經過是，當時的原能會有派人去檢測，因為他們要使用X光機，結果那個X光機都還沒有通電就被檢測出來說有強烈的輻射現象，然後就開始進行後續的調查。但是當時原能會是黑箱處理，第一個，沒有告知牙科診所面的相關人員說他們檢測到了輻射。這個輻射是在哪裡？原來就是在它的建築物，牆的鋼筋裡面就具有輻射了。我覺得這個給我們一個很大的警惕跟教訓，因為這個是公安的事件，應該秉持科學性來處理，不能有政治的介入，所以當時第一個，不只是沒有告知當時牙科診所的人員，然後也禁止媒體報導，一直到後續還有好幾個案件發生，1992年的時候，在我的選區──廈門街台電宿舍也是一樣，有一位台電員工把輻射偵測器帶回家，然後家中的小朋友拿出來玩，結果就發現家裡有異常的輻射現象，後來原能會才前往監測，然後開始進行拆除，並拆下的輻射鋼筋送回我們核能研究所來儲存。那我最後請問，目前這樣子的輻射屋在台北市還剩下多少？"],["陳主任委員東陽：目前這個課題應該已經漸漸的沒有了，現在剩下7戶。"],["吳委員沛憶：剩下7戶？"],["陳主任委員東陽：剩下7戶，我們預計它在119年會因為自然輻射的衰減，大概全部都可以安全。這個問題我們會裡面還有在管控相關的部分，每一個月都會去檢視，所以這個問題應該會慢慢降低。也跟委員報告，因為輻射鋼筋的問題，所以射源不小心熔入到熔煉爐裡面，這個會造成很大的問題，所以我們現在也有門框式的偵檢器來做一些源頭的把關，所以確定都會是安全的，我們現在市面上大概都會有做這項檢驗。"],["吳委員沛憶：輻射屋目前在台北市僅存7戶，我希望我們核安會還是要持續跟民眾來保持聯繫，也讓他們知道接下來的情況如何來處置，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳沛憶委員，主委請回。","我們現在先來處理解凍案4案。請議事人員宣讀。"],["主席：好，第一案，第一案是第1目一般行政，預算編列6億1,220萬9,000元，凍結100萬元。請問委員有無意見？（無）沒有的話，我們就允以動支，提報院會。","第二案是第2目，預算編列23億3,866萬1,000元，凍結1,000萬元。這個案子，大家有沒有意見？","好，請柯志恩委員。"],["柯委員志恩：我覺得這一案裡面因為有提到有關核一乾貯場的問題，但是我還是必須要請核安會釐清一些問題的癥結所在，因為台電要申請水保計畫卻不按圖施工，然後因為新北市有查到違法，只好提出變更的設計，新北市就請台電補送修正後的水保計畫，但是台電送了13次也都不修正，所以目前為止都無卷可審，沒有辦法審的話，你叫新北市審啥？所以核安會是不是應該積極請台電趕快補送水保計畫，而不是讓台電一直放話說是新北市在卡這個乾貯場，我覺得這個部分應該要做個處理，有沒有誰可以回應？因為這個問題滿重要的，這個到處都是需要被釐清啊，你的水保計畫送了13次也不修正，目前到底是怎麼樣？我覺得這個東西很重要。","還有上次我也質詢過，主委也特別提到了有關於核廢高放處的計畫，現在不管是高放或是低放的部分，你目前都是放在所謂的中期暫時貯存場，所以有關於中期貯存場的問題，你要趕快解決！我上次已經質詢過了，我不曉得核安會在我質詢完之後……而且你們已經召開過7次非核家園會議裡面有沒有辦法去督促台電趕快對於選址的程序做……請告訴我們目前進度到底是怎麼樣？這是以前的問題一直到現在，到底目前是如何？我想這應該跟台電有關，因為這是環環相扣的，現場有沒有一些代表或誰可以來回應我剛剛所點出的這兩個問題？水土保持計畫的部分。"],["陳組長鴻斌：水保的確是地方政府的權責，現在水保這個事情我們有掌握到，已經有點進展，就是他們走了一個行政協調，而這個行政協調已經有結論，所以我們詢問台電後所知道的，目前就是核一的水保改善計畫台電已經送件……"],["柯委員志恩：不是，它送了13次，但都沒有改，就空在那邊，讓新北市無案可審。"],["陳組長鴻斌：是，現在已經重新送件。"],["柯委員志恩：所以這是第14次，是不是？"],["陳組長鴻斌：已經送件……"],["柯委員志恩：好，因為我覺得這個部分要把它釐清楚，所以，你們現在是不是可以給我一個時間點，到底目前的進度是怎麼樣？我只是不希望每一次到選舉的時候永遠都是……你剛剛說這是地方權責，可是你的東西沒有送過來，然後每次送也都不先做修正的話，每次都說是新北市沒有在處理這個問題，我覺得這個東西是要做一些釐清的。他們送第14次，可不可以告訴我一些進度或是告訴我現在到什麼地方？否則……"],["陳組長鴻斌：是，4月16號台電公司已經送了水土保持計畫到新北市……"],["柯委員志恩：所以結果還不知道？"],["陳組長鴻斌：是的。"],["柯委員志恩：有關於我剛剛說的中期暫時貯存場的場址部分，請問你們現在的進度到底怎麼樣？"],["陳組長鴻斌：是的，這些都是選址的問題，選址的問題現在經濟部正在執行，根據非核家園小組的要求就是要趕快溝通、趕快進行選址。因為我們管安全，我們是建議這個選址的程序要趕快在非核家園小組裡面提出來討論，這個也已經去函了，已經都送達了。"],["柯委員志恩：這都好像只是在進行式，主席，我都看不到一個解答！"],["主席：可是如果沒有解凍、沒有經費，要怎麼進行選址？"],["柯委員志恩：沒有啦！這個都已經是長期留下來的一個問題了，還是要給我們一些什麼樣或比較確定的一個回復，我覺得這才是一個比較負責之方式，否則從上次到現在都是在進行中、進行中。"],["主席：因為選址確實是一個難題啦，大家都很清楚。"],["柯委員志恩：我知道啊！"],["陳組長鴻斌：報告委員，核安會編的預算都是執行安全審查跟檢查的預算，選址的行政作業……"],["柯委員志恩：然後水土的部分，我剛剛是提出兩個問題，好不好？我也不會再為難我們核安會，是不是你可以給我一個更確切……就這個部分的進程給我一個稍微的報告，好不好？"],["陳組長鴻斌：是。"],["柯委員志恩：我才可以很清楚知道到底是如何，好不好？我們就做這樣子的決議，可不可以？"],["主席：OK、沒問題、沒問題。要多久？你們多久給報告？"],["陳組長鴻斌：一週。"],["主席：一週？好，那就一個禮拜內給我們教文委員會每個委員都一份報告，好不好？書面報告。"],["陳組長鴻斌：是。"],["主席：那第二案的部分我們就允以動支，提報院會。","處理第三案。第三案是第5目有關於環境輻射偵測，預算編列3,761萬9,000元，凍結20萬元。大家對這個案有沒有意見？","請柯志恩委員。"],["柯委員志恩：我只想問一下，因為我覺得你這邊是有關於核安資訊的問題，你剛才告訴我們，你們都會在相關的平台上面提供民眾來做參考，我可以知道是哪個平台嗎？我好像只有看到一個什麼海洋監測平台，是不是海洋監測平台還是什麼平台？這個大家都看不到，而且剛才我上去看了一下，什麼氚啊、銫-134、銫-137，大家不見得都看得懂。你看你們那個平台上面的宣導，我覺得你們應該讓它更平易近人、淺顯易懂，而且最主要的是大家如果有疑問的話，應該要馬上可以找得到，但顯然這一塊目前為止我看不到有一個很好的成效或結果，可不可以告訴我們，你們把相關的訊息都放在什麼平台？我現在只找到一個海洋監測平台，其他的在哪裡？"],["陳主任委員東陽：跟委員、召委報告，海洋資訊、海洋擴散……"],["主席：主委，您的麥克風有沒有開？"],["陳主任委員東陽：這是一個海洋資訊、海洋擴散的平台，我們在核安e點通的app就有，在我們的官網也有，所以你點進去可以看到所有的資訊。"],["柯委員志恩：是這樣子嗎？我等一下再點點看，因為我剛剛是看到海洋監測的平台，我覺得你們的宣傳，還有你們所寫的term、你們的terminology實在是有點太……需要更淺顯易懂一點，好不好？只是小小的提出建議。"],["主席：好，謝謝柯志恩召委的建議，那我們這一案就也准予動支，提報院會。","最後是第四案，第四案是有關於第6目核物料管制業務，預算編列2,112萬9,000元，凍結20萬元，對這個案有沒有意見？（無）如果沒有意見，我們是不是也准予動支、提報院會？OK，那我們的凍結案處理完畢。","接下來繼續詢答，我們請楊瓊瓔委員。謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葉元之","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","范雲","張嘉郡","吳春城"],"page_start":251,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會\n列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央\n政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案4案","agenda_id":"1133301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.228468750000001,"end":7.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.96221875,"end":8.164718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.164718750000002,"end":8.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.72159375,"end":8.738468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.738468750000003,"end":8.755343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.379093750000003,"end":14.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.35784375,"end":40.463468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.374718750000003,"end":14.391593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.087843750000005,"end":57.40596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.45659375,"end":63.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.047218750000006,"end":58.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.51471875000001,"end":72.22221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.64409375000001,"end":78.34784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.77409375,"end":77.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.03971875,"end":80.22096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.22096875000001,"end":80.44034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.44034375000001,"end":80.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.54159375,"end":85.95846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.76034375,"end":114.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.62471875,"end":89.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.11409375000001,"end":118.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.11784375,"end":120.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.36221875000001,"end":124.33221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.60659375,"end":144.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.65284375,"end":125.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.40909375,"end":164.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.57284375,"end":151.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.94721875000002,"end":158.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.92971875,"end":166.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.87846875000002,"end":166.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.99221875,"end":168.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.61221875,"end":182.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.23034375,"end":183.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.39471875,"end":194.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.94596875000002,"end":193.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.85284375,"end":196.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.79784375,"end":196.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.96221875,"end":196.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.06346875,"end":208.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.42159375,"end":200.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.80846875,"end":211.82909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.47034375,"end":216.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.26284375,"end":218.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.74784375000002,"end":227.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.59034375000002,"end":229.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.80096875,"end":254.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.99534375000002,"end":258.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.12971875,"end":260.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.39096875,"end":270.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.87159375000005,"end":263.90534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.93909375000004,"end":264.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.60534375000003,"end":267.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.43596875000003,"end":275.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.45284375,"end":270.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.92534375,"end":270.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.22409375,"end":279.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.00846875,"end":291.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.66471875,"end":299.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.38909375000003,"end":323.55846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.08159375,"end":331.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.19846875,"end":343.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.11221875,"end":345.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.44096875,"end":349.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.64721875000004,"end":351.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.12784375,"end":353.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.95034375,"end":356.19471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.68409375000005,"end":370.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.70721875000004,"end":378.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.56659375000004,"end":381.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.36784375,"end":389.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.7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沒有齁 那個是這樣子齁 第一個就是確定不到廠區外 第一個那第二個它燃料池的水 它是有漏就是它有一個洩的孔 它會流到一個地方去集起來所以它才會 你可以計算出來它流的量是多少把它集中來做回收 那就把它放置在那個地方"},{"start":169.032,"end":181.626,"text":"燃料池溢出來因為地震的關係其實大家會擔心那你們第一時間做了回收也做了檢測後續也持續的檢測目前是沒有安全的問題沒有"},{"start":183.508,"end":201.225,"text":"除了我們的核電廠以外清大裡面的這個水池式反應器是不是有發生溢出的情形?我們核安會有沒有掌握?有有有什麼樣的情況?對,它大概是比較少量啦,大概10公升"},{"start":202.106,"end":218.569,"text":"就像委員的這個PowerPoint裡面寫的那麼我們其實在第一時間都在本會的官網都有去告知民眾這樣的訊息那麼當然最重要的就是目前是安全無虞"},{"start":218.883,"end":225.068,"text":"是那因為這個就在校園裡面所以後續我希望我們核安會可以持續的來掌握情況持續的追蹤好不好好那講到這個燃料池的滿載那也就是我們現在在討論的到底我們台灣我們適不適合把我們的核電廠來進行研議那我想核電廠的研議很大的一個考量要從專業的角度來考量它的安全性的問題我們現行有沒有法規來"},{"start":248.846,"end":275.442,"text":"管制我們的這個核子反應器的設施現行有沒有法規有,我們會裡面掌管非常多法規跟法律核子設施反應法核子反應器設施管制法那麼它還有幾十條的執法那麼內容相當的多那包含如何"},{"start":276.323,"end":277.343,"text":"核能安全委員會主管預算 核能安全委員會主管預算"},{"start":300.83,"end":314.539,"text":"公眾安全絕對是我們在做反應器的管制很重要我們目前在法裡面要求我們要去做管制跟管理的所以現在我們立法院裡面本院有不同的委員提出包括要推動核子反應器設施嚴厲條例草案"},{"start":324.325,"end":342.721,"text":"這我是反對因為呢我認為我們現行已經有法規在進行核子反應器的管制那直接在法案裡面名稱就入法是要推動我認為這個是侵害了我們行政權的裁決的範圍因為究竟要不要演繹這應該不是政治問題它應該是一個科學跟安全的問題我們立法院沒有這麼大"},{"start":352.185,"end":376.076,"text":"如果說什麼事情立法院、立委都立一個法條來決定的話那以後我們不需要專家我們以後不需要專業的公共政策的決策了所以我還是希望說公共政策的討論尤其核電的使用核電廠的研議牽涉到了公眾的安全性要回歸到專業回歸到科學來進行討論我覺得這才是根本之道"},{"start":382.443,"end":385.975,"text":"所以我反對立法院裡面直接要求要推動核子反應器研議要把它入法"},{"start":390.814,"end":415.005,"text":"立法院真的沒有這麼大所以這一點我希望呢我們可以一起來努力為台灣的公眾的安全來把關那最後呢我想要跟這個主委討論的是因為我在看一個教授的論文是過去呢在1985年的時候當時第一次台灣發現了我們有輻射物"},{"start":416.343,"end":418.885,"text":"這個1985年就是我出生前的兩年嘛然後呢 這個第一個發現在哪裡呢是在我們臺北的民生別墅的起源牙科那這個案件為什麼要提出來講這發生的經過是呢就是我們當時的原委會有派人去檢測他要使用X光機結果呢 那個X光機都還沒有通電就檢測出來說 有強烈的輻射現象"},{"start":446.141,"end":448.703,"text":"然後就開始來進行後續的這個調查但是呢當時委員會是黑箱處理第一個沒有告知牙科診所裡面的相關人員我們檢測到了輻射那原來這個是在哪裡就在他的建築物牆裡面的鋼筋裡面就具有輻射了"},{"start":465.515,"end":466.956,"text":"那我覺得這個是給我們一個很大的警惕跟教訓因為這個是公安的事件要秉持科學性來處理不能來政治的介入所以當時第一個不只是沒有告知當時牙科診所的人員然後呢也禁止媒體報導"},{"start":485.572,"end":489.554,"text":"一直是到後續陸續還有好幾個案件發生1992年的時候也是在我的選區廈門街臺電宿舍也是一樣是我們有一個臺電的員工他就是把這個輻射偵測器帶回家就小朋友拿出來玩結果就發現說怎麼在家裡就發現有異常的輻射現象那後來呢委員會才前往了監測"},{"start":507.563,"end":521.059,"text":"然後來開始進行拆除拆除下的這個剩下的這輻射的鋼筋呢送回我們核能研究所來儲存那我最後請問目前在台北市我們目前這樣子的輻射物還剩下多少?"},{"start":522.637,"end":531.721,"text":"目前這個課題應該已經漸進的沒有了現在剩下7戶我們剩下7戶剩下7戶那麼我們大概預計在119年會因為自然輻射的衰減"},{"start":540.504,"end":544.248,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算 »:解凍案二、審查113年度中央政府總預算 »:解凍案二、審查113年度中央政府總預算 »:解凍案"},{"start":558.547,"end":583.204,"text":"那也跟委員報告因為輻射鋼筋的問題所以射源不小心融入到這個熔煉爐裡面那這個會造成很大的問題所以我們現在也有門框式的偵檢器做一些源頭的把關所以確定就是都大概會是安全的所以大約我們現在在市面上大概都會有做這樣的檢驗"},{"start":585.282,"end":596.439,"text":"福壽屋目前在台北市僅存7戶那我希望我們核安委還是要持續的跟這個民眾保持聯繫讓他們知道接下來的情況如何來處置好 謝謝好 謝謝 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11:42:05","影片長度":"00:10:35","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：一、審查行政院函請審議「陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案」案。二、審查本院委員徐巧芯等18人擬具「陸海空軍懲罰法部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查行政院函請審議「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。四、審查本院委員徐巧芯等20人擬具「軍人權益事件處理法草案」案。【4月24日及25日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[35,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1"},"duration":635,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:42:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:31:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":599,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（11時31分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：邱部長請。"],["吳委員思瑤：另外，政治作戰局的張副局長要陪同。"],["主席：請政戰局。"],["吳委員思瑤：我之前針對這個主題是跟育琳局長討論比較多。"],["邱部長國正：是，吳委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：部長、各位國防部的同仁。我長期在教育及文化委員會，我想對於身心靈的關懷，從教育部門，尤其是高教端，我願意來分享我們改進的經驗，當然軍中的管理不同，但是我想心輔是一個專業，我希望大家藉由思瑤的分享，能夠給予國防部門在針對心輔機制是不是層層失靈的部分，我們能夠給彼此更多的啟發，畢竟國軍一定要身心靈健康，國軍強，國家才會強，我想這個共識大家都有。"],["邱部長國正：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：我把我長期追蹤的教育部門資訊分享一下，教育部門從國教到高教，這5年來學生的自殺死亡率成長了1.66倍，而人數攀升很關鍵的一件事情，也就是我要告訴國防部同仁們的，我們的心輔機制有沒有接住這樣需要協助的珍貴生命？以教育部門來講，這5年來因為自殺，有477位年輕的生命離開了，各級學校跟國軍一樣有三級的輔導機制，可是以大學端來講，根據2021年的統計，有65.5%自殺身亡的年輕生命是學校漏接的，從來沒有去向心輔機制提出救助的訊號，連SOS發出的機會都沒有，這是大學的部分。國軍呢？我非常認真地去找了資料，也謝謝你們的提供。這5年來國軍的自殺通報，包括已遂跟未遂，總共有158人，我們接住了多少人？只接住了11人，進入輔導的只有11人，換言之，高達93.1%自殺通報的人，我們的心輔機制接不住，所以非常難過地，自殺死亡的人數，這5年來失去了99位士官兵的珍貴生命，進入輔導的更只有5個人，所以漏接了94.9%，將近95%，這就是我們國軍三級的心輔機制失靈。","精準診斷才能夠有效防範，有健康的國軍才有健康的臺灣。但是你們所提供的自殺原因統計非常地粗略，只有告訴我們，原因四成是經濟因素，兩成五是感情因素，但是如果是專業的分析，你必須進入去研究他是志願役還是義務役，以及他的年齡層分布，這些都沒有做，這個請你們政戰局要馬上去做。唯有有效的分析才能夠來防範，尤其年齡層是重要的，包括他入伍服役多久、可能會發生需要求助的狀況，都需要專業的分析，我想部長同意嘛！對不對？"],["邱部長國正：是，同意，這應該要做的。"],["吳委員思瑤：這就是三級防處的機制，第一級，初級的發掘預防；第二級的專業輔導，第三級的醫療處遇，真的層層失靈，才會漏接了百分之九十五往生士官兵的生命。我要告訴大家，我剛也聽了部長的回復，你們說我們每一層都有督導，但心輔是專業，我請求部長、我請求局長，能夠把這句話聽進去，心輔是專業，它絕對需要專業的有效介入，否則那是無效的武器。","我跟您報告，目前我們的基層單位沒有心輔人力，全部都仰賴輔導長，二級的心輔中心編制人員451位，實際人員只有382位，具有專業證照人數只有60個；三級編制人員14個，實際人員13個，具體取得證照的是9位。統計來講，從基層單位二級、三級整個國軍的心輔人員取得證照的比例，我跟部長報告，只有69位，在整個國軍要服務16萬大軍，專業心輔證照的比例只有17.5%，這是一個非常嚴肅的課題。我再次說，心輔是專業，不要告訴我輔導長可以take care，他的關懷可能是錯誤的關懷，他想要關懷反而是給了壓力。","再跟您報告，我調閱出來的資料，剛剛說的國軍具有心輔專業證照的有69位，其實另外還有86位他畢業於心理相關的學系或者是社工相關的學系，有86位，可是他的工作本務不是心輔，非常可惜！所以兩條路，第一個，有心輔證照的人只有69位，他真的做心輔工作，人力要補強，專業要人盡其才，但是現役的……你還不用去外面求助、去攬才，有86位現在就在軍中，但是他不做心輔的工作，非常的可惜，可以優先透過調派人力的方式，讓這86位具備心理師、社工師相關證照的人員，來補強心輔的戰力，這做得到吧？部長。"],["邱部長國正：這可以做到，我們立刻去處理。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，部長，剛剛洪申翰委員他用的數字是1比400，就是我這個表格的最左邊，服務士官兵1比405，是以395位你們編的二級、三級的心輔人力的那個工作，可是他不是專業人力。如果以心輔的專業人力，整個國軍只有69個，而且他真的就是做心輔的工作，比起16萬大軍的比例是1比2,318，這個數字才是我們要面對的真相，是1比2,318。","我後面會快轉，我快速分享我在教育部門推動的經驗，謝謝主席，多給我一點點時間。教育部原本是1比1,200，我是說高教，吳思瑤不斷地質詢要求，現在要修學生輔導法，還沒修法前先用預算補助的方式，已經要求各大學要做到1比900，這是專業的心輔人力，1比900，大學是這樣做，現在還沒有修法，各校已經用預算撥補的方式去做了，所以想做是做得到的。我剛剛說了，監察院已經做出調查了，輔導長同時身兼軍紀、保防的工作，他是管理者，同時又要做心理輔導的工作，這是一個矛盾跟混亂的角色，他想要輔導、他想要關懷，結果是錯給了壓力，讓輔導長來做基層士官兵的心理輔導，不行！部長，我們必須面對這個真相，這個調查報告已經7年了，沒有改善。","我快轉，點出問題，現在義務役變1年，現在大學生1年級，4年畢業後未來他可以進到軍中去當兵，相關的心輔、社工畢業的就有819人，可以來善用這些人，在他的工作分配的時候來協助輔導長，協助二級、三級的人員。你們開缺在小選的機制裡頭，都需要什麼駕駛、資訊、機電人才，開一個心輔人才吧！這做得到吧！是不是？自己內部沒有辦法做，我們去轉介外部，我們去跟外部的輔導機構來合作，確實這幾年來向外部合作成長5.2倍，轉介數增加1.83倍，輔導人次增加3.29倍。但是預算不夠，沒有跟上來，預算只有從100萬增加到170萬……"],["主席：吳思瑤委員，麻煩摘要或者相關書面資料，我覺得政戰局值得研究。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，最後一件事情，大學現在開始有心理健康假，從吳思瑤2022年質詢的時候只有2校，現在有43校，教育部跟上來，心理健康假、身心調適假向下延伸，現在高中有42個學校試辦，今年9月要全面試辦。我也去向人事總處提出質詢，學生有心理健康假，公務人員也正在研議全臺灣的公務人員有心理健康假，不是為了放假而放假，是透過心理健康假可以讓我們的輔導機制去追蹤誰請了這個假、他需要什麼輔導。軍中的管理是不同的，我同意，可是我分享了教育部門的經驗、其他公務體系的經驗，我希望可以攪動大家的思維，我今天帶來的就是心輔需要專業。部長、副局長，我給您3個月的時間，我們再進一步來做探討，好嗎？"],["邱部長國正：好，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳思瑤委員，相關資料請部長跟政戰局進行研擬。","接下來進行詢答的委員是林憶君委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":304,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-35,36-1","speakers":["王定宇","馬文君","林楚茵","沈伯洋","黃國昌","羅美玲","黃仁","徐巧芯","陳永康","陳俊宇","羅智強","林思銘","洪申翰","翁曉玲","陳冠廷","吳思瑤","林憶君","鄭天財Sra 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下一頁"},{"start":124.698,"end":147.248,"text":"國軍呢?我非常認真的去找了我們的資料,也謝謝你們的提供。這幾年來,五年來,國軍的自殺通報,包括以稅跟未稅,總共有158人自殺通報。我們接住了多少人?只接住了11人,進入福島只有11人,換言之高達93.1%,"},{"start":150.729,"end":171.556,"text":"自殺通報的人我們的心腹機制接不住。」那以非常難過的自殺死亡的人數這5年來有99位珍貴的士官兵的生命進入福島的更只有5個人所以漏接了94.9%將近95%這就是我們的國軍三級的心腹機制就是失靈下一頁"},{"start":181.584,"end":209.418,"text":"精準診斷才能有效防範。」有健康的國軍才有健康的台灣。但是你們所提供的自殺的原因的統計,非常的粗略。只有告訴我們,原因四成是經濟因素,兩成五是感情因素。但是如果以專業的分析,你必須去進入他是志願役,他是義務役,他的年齡層分布。"},{"start":210.848,"end":228.211,"text":"沒有做,這個馬上請你們作戰局要去做。」唯有有效的分析才能夠來防範,尤其年齡層是重要的,包括他入伍服役多久,可能會發生需要求助的狀況,都需要專業的分析,我想部長同意嘛,對不對?這同意,這應該要做的。"},{"start":229.672,"end":251.534,"text":"這就是三級防處的機制,第一級初級的發掘預防,第二級的專業輔導,第三級的醫療處遇,真的層層失靈,才會有漏接了95%的往生的士官兵的生命。我要告訴大家,我剛也聽了部長的回覆,你們說我們每一層都有督導,"},{"start":253.155,"end":277.348,"text":"心腹是專業。」我請求部長、我請求局長能夠把這句話聽進去。心腹是專業。他絕對需要專業的有效介入,否則那是無效的武器。下一頁。我跟您報告,目前我們的基層單位沒有心腹人力,全部都仰賴輔導長。"},{"start":279.366,"end":287.492,"text":"二級的新府中心編制人員451位實際人員只有382位具有專業證照人數只有60個三級編制人員14個實際人員13個具體取得證照的是9位統計來講從基層單位二級、三級整個國軍的新府人員取得證照的比例我跟部長報告只有69位"},{"start":307.848,"end":332.944,"text":"專業的心腹證照的比例在整個國軍要服務16萬大軍,比例只有17.5。這是一個非常嚴肅的課題,我再次說心腹是專業,不要告訴我輔導長可以take care,他的關懷可能是錯誤的關懷,他想要關懷反而是給了壓力。下一頁。"},{"start":334.246,"end":354.726,"text":"在跟您報告,我調閱出來的資料,剛剛說的國軍具有心腹證照的專業的有69位,其實另外還有86位他畢業於心理師相關的、心理相關的學系或者是社工相關的學系,有86位,可是他的工作本務不是心腹。"},{"start":355.347,"end":373.966,"text":"非常可惜,所以兩條路,第一個有新府證照的人只有69位,他真的做新府工作,人力要補強,專業要人盡其才,但是現役的你還不用去外面求助,心去攬財,有86位現在就在軍中,"},{"start":374.807,"end":386.853,"text":"但是他不做心腹的工作,非常的可惜,可以優先透過調派人力的方式,讓這86位具備心理師、社工師相關證照的人員來"},{"start":389.004,"end":409.352,"text":"補強新府的戰力。」這做得到吧,部長?這可以做到,我們立刻去處理。好,下一頁,部長。剛剛洪宣翰委員他用的數字是1比400,就是我這個表格的最左邊。服務士官兵1比405,是以395位你們編的二級、三級的新府人力的那個工作,可是他不是專業人力。"},{"start":410.712,"end":419.896,"text":"如果以新府的專業人力就是整個國軍只有69個而且他真的就是做新府的工作比起16萬大軍的話他的比例是1比2318這個數字才是我們要面對的真相是1比2318我後面會快轉我快速分享我在教育部門推動的經驗謝謝主席多給我一點點時間下一頁"},{"start":438.004,"end":441.489,"text":"交易簿原本是1比1200,我說是高教"},{"start":443.619,"end":467.269,"text":"吳思瑤不斷的質詢要求現在要修學生輔導法還沒修法前先用預算補助的方式已經要求各大學要做到1比900這是專業的幸福人力1比900這是大學這樣做現在已經各校還沒有修法用預算撥補的方式去做了所以想做是做得到的下一頁好我剛剛說了"},{"start":470.69,"end":486.18,"text":"檢察院已經做出了調查了,輔導長他同時身兼軍紀保防的工作,他是管理者,他同時又要做心理輔導的工作,這是一個矛盾跟混亂的角色。他想要輔導,他想要關懷,結果是給錯了壓力,讓輔導長來作為基層的、士官兵的"},{"start":495.447,"end":519.646,"text":"心理輔導,不行,部長,我們必須面對這個真相,這個調查報告已經7年了,沒有改善。」好,我快轉,點出問題,下一頁。現在,151變1年,現在大學生1年級未來4年畢業他可以進到軍中去當兵,相關的新府社工畢業的就有819人。"},{"start":521.331,"end":525.344,"text":"可以來善用這些人在他的工作分配的時候來協助輔導長、協助二級、三級的人員下一頁。"},{"start":528.84,"end":536.225,"text":"審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人審查行政院徐巧芯等20人"},{"start":556.917,"end":562.823,"text":"不夠沒有跟上來,預算只有從100萬增加到170萬。」這個事情,大學現在開始有心理健康假。"},{"start":576.507,"end":589.635,"text":"從吳思瑤2022年質詢的時候只有兩校,現在有43校。教育部跟上來,心理健康價、身心調適價向下延伸,現在高中有42個學校試辦,今年9月要全面試辦。下一頁"},{"start":591.736,"end":604.772,"text":"我也去向人事總處提出質詢,學生有心理健康假,公務人員也正在研議全台灣的公務人員有心理健康假,不是為了放假而放假,是透過心理健康假可以讓我們的輔導機制去追蹤誰請了這個假,他需要什麼輔導。"},{"start":610.462,"end":634.019,"text":"軍中的管理是不同的,我同意,可是我分享了教育部門的經驗,其他公務體系的經驗,我希望可以擾動大家的思維。我今天帶來的就是,心腹需要專業。部長、副局長,我給您三個月的時間,我們再進一步來做探討好嗎?好,謝謝吳思堯委員,相關資料請。好,謝謝主席,謝謝。部長跟政論局這邊,敬嚴你。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151666","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151666","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb30d8c3326d870ade27e796690f3f0abb2eadb1108e4b8443285ef96e8213ea40c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:26:27 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11:40:44","影片長度":"00:14:17","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運用以降低基層司法體系負擔之成效與精進期程」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-16"},"duration":857,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:40:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:26:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":713,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（11時26分）我們請司法院秘書長、法務部長。"],["主席：有請吳秘書長，還有蔡部長。"],["吳委員宗憲：這邊我先就教部長。部長，我想我們都很清楚，檢察官工作的核心是內勤、外勤，開庭、寫書類，我今天收到一個報告，每個檢察官目前的收案量是110件，我想部長應該知道這個狀況吧？"],["蔡部長清祥：偵、他、相案，因為我們只統計這些比較重要的。"],["吳委員宗憲：就是各種，包括其他這些案件，加起來大概110件。我們就來講偵字案件，偵字案件，我想桃園地檢跟新北地檢常常月收都是超過100件，我想部長應該很清楚這個狀況。我跟部長報告一下，我們當年分發的時候，我在民國90年分發的時候，我記得那個時候我看到的報表，一個月偵案是三十幾件，現在的話已經變成這個數字。我離開檢方是在民國109年，但是從108年到去年的數據，以新收案件來說，全國的新收案件漲了47%。也就是這四年多裡面，全國檢方的新收案件漲了47%，這跟房價的漲幅都差不多了，房價是七年百分之九十幾，檢方的案件是四年多漲了47%，我想這已經到了一個完全不合理的的狀況了。一個案子，我想我們都知道，他必須要開庭，從收案、開庭、訊問，然後要寫書類，要去思考，也就是說，這樣平均下來一個案子，如果每一天超時工作到12個小時的話，3個小時才能結掉一件，對不對？這個會不會已經超過正常的負荷了？更何況有很多案子，我們講一個簡單的，你說酒醉駕車，那個就像寫聯絡簿一樣那麼簡單，但是我們有更多的案子其實是要花腦子去思考的，更多人民之間的糾紛，其實那個都沒有那麼容易。所以每一個案子在偵查的時候都很辛苦，部長，這部分你有什麼想法？"],["蔡部長清祥：我同意委員的看法，因為數字它只是平均而已，其實每一個案子的複雜度跟簡易是完全不一樣的，有的案子有時候需要好幾年，也可能要辦了很久，要問過數百人後才能夠結案，有一些是分案以後，很簡單的例稿填一填就可以結案，所以不能純粹看數字，這個我可以體會。"],["吳委員宗憲：我之前處理過一個貪污案件，那個案件一個案子裡面是有好多位官員，然後有十幾個廠商，被告到最後超過20個，我書類寫了一個多禮拜，然後一百多頁，而這個也是一個案子。所以到最後會不會變成檢察官或法官，他們都去想辦法去追求那些簡單的案子，或者是把一個原本應該複雜的案子簡易化，這個我認為是這很重要的一件事情。","其實這幾年大家常常在罵恐龍法官、恐龍檢察官，就像我剛剛說的，一個案子我們要閱卷、開庭、調資料，還要寫書類，這幾年我不敢跟著大家罵，因為我知道問題出在哪裡。大家就是一直罵恐龍法官、恐龍檢察官，但是我跟各位說明一件事情，就好像記者一天只能寫2個稿，我要你今天一天寫出10個稿，你寫出來的東西，品質就會出問題；一樣，用工廠來看好了，如果今天這個工廠符合勞基法，一個月生產30套設備，我叫大家不睡覺、不休息、不陪家人，一個月生產能夠「弓」到60套設備，但是今天老闆叫你生產到120套設備呢？出來的品質良率就變很差。今天我看到的司法是這樣，所以與其大家一直罵說司法有問題、司法怎麼樣，你要去思考到底我們今天給司法人員什麼樣的環境？發生了什麼事情？就像我們去看醫生，我們覺得醫生應該跟我問診問10分鐘，結果沒有啊，人越來越多，剩5分鐘，到最後你現在去看診，有的1分鐘就請你出去了，那你能夠看到什麼？今天我們一直說法官、檢察官有問題，腦子有問題，結果你弄錯了，是你給他的數字出了問題，結果東西出來一塌糊塗！","我必須講一個，我一直覺得，當然我真的舉雙手贊成人力的部分一定要補足，但是我想跟各位說一句話──笨蛋！問題在制度！真的是制度出了問題！尤其是我們幾年前的司法改革會議，其實是把制度改得更複雜、更亂，所以不要跟我說司法改革成功！司法改革成功與否？為什麼這幾年的司法改革改到司法官累到走不下去了？或者是人民的滿意度越來越低？所以不要跟我說司法改革成功。就像我一直覺得國民法官制度問題重重，但是司法院就是要硬推，也不去管到底裡面發生了什麼問題。你認為所有的改革都是為了保障人權，但是說真的，我看到了一堆東西只是複雜化原本的制度。當年的司改會議，當然有部分是司法專業人員，但是這麼高專業度的制度修改，你卻讓非常多非法律的人，你可能找很多社運團體來這邊，每個人就只聚焦在一個小問題上面，然後要求制度修改。但是制度跟制度，制度內的每一個點都是環環相扣，所以很多國家的訴訟制度的修改是花了30年、50年才慢慢轉換，結果我們這邊竟然是二個月的會議開完全國大改，難怪到今天越改，司法官累得半死，司法官累到人生這條路走不下去！然後累到現在是戰力最強的檢察官、法官一堆人離職，到最後我們補了很多新人，他們經驗還需要慢慢培養，補了很多新人進來，案件量越來越多，回過頭去罵司法怎麼變那麼爛！我要跟各位報告，你以為的司法改革是要改善人民對司法的信任度，結果我們的司法改革改得人民對司法越來越不信任，這是我看到的司法改革現在的狀況，累死了一堆法官、檢察官！","我們一路這樣走過來，我看得很清楚，現在新分發的檢察官跟法官已經沒有時間去學辦案了。我們以前剛出來很好運，我當年出來的時候案件量還算合理，我還有時間去學怎麼辦案，怎麼跟這些偵查機關、司法警察相處，怎麼樣帶領他們辦案。現在新分發的，我去跟他們聊天，每一個都說每天都在加班寫書類，每天都在加班看卷，完全沒有辦法去學社會發生了什麼事，結果他們就跟社會越來越脫節，他們辦案的功力越來越弱，他們出來的書類品質越來越差，他們開庭的時間越來越短，結果司法的品質就越來越差，就變成了今天這個樣子。我今天是很沉痛地點出我們司法的問題在這裡，我覺得這個是制度面的問題，真的是制度面的問題。","接下來還有兵役延長為一年所衍生的部分，兵役延長為一年之後，這些軍事審判的東西目前都還在普通法院，這個也加重了檢察官跟法官的工作量！所以所有的東西就是一直不停地加重、加重、再加重普通法院的法官跟檢察官的工作量。","這個制度的問題，麻煩兩位長官一定要去思考該怎麼辦？因為基層不會把聲音告訴長官們，長官們可能聽到的都是身邊幹部的人的想法，但是我是一路基層做了20年，所有現在跟我還在往來的這些法官、檢察官同學們，他們會告訴我第一手的他們痛苦的事情是什麼。講一個例子，二十幾年前要改交互詰問制度，去美國抄了一套交互詰問制度來，結果呢？有沒有想過美國上訴是多困難啊，很多學者說美國甚至只有一審是事實審，但我們的事實審搞了二個審級，同一套制度玩了二遍，消耗多少人力、物力，害當事人花了多少錢請律師，我們都不管，這個制度上面不是有很大的問題嗎？你抄人家的制度，人家是一個審級的事實審就要審理完畢，上訴二審有非常多的限制，甚至我們有學者把它歸類為我們的法律審了，叫做三審的法律審，結果我們同一套制度玩二遍，那個意義在哪裡？","這段時間我有跟法務部要很多資料，甚至我也說，譬如說緩起訴處分職權送再議的意義在哪？我從數據上面來看是一點價值都沒有，但是卻搞垮了二審的檢察官。一樣，就法官而言，刑事訴訟二審肥大症就把二審搞慘了，因為我們上訴有審級利益的問題，所以被告上訴完全沒有什麼成本，他想上訴就上訴，搞得二審案件一大堆，法官累的半死。","我希望將來該除罪的就把它除罪化，對人民沒有任何意義的東西就把它除罪化。還有司法院是不是能夠再健全一些中低收入戶的訴訟保障後，然後我們去提高一些訴訟費用該收費的標準，讓有錢人使用法院應該多交一點錢，但是我們擴大訴訟救助的部分，讓沒有錢的人也可以享受訴訟。另外，假性財產犯罪是不是應該要收費？不要讓檢察官、法官成為全國最大的連鎖討債集團，我以前當檢察官最痛恨的點就是一堆人把假性財產犯罪來叫我幫他討錢，我想部長一定很清楚，這是檢察官心裡的痛。還有妨害司法公正是不是應該要趕快把它建立起來。","部長，我講到這個議題，我自己心裡是感觸很深，畢竟我是這樣子走過來的，我現在身邊的好朋友、以前的同學也幾乎都還是法官、檢察官，我想說我還是必須要替他們講講話，部長或秘書長有沒有什麼想法？"],["蔡部長清祥：謝謝委員指教。委員是基層檢察官出身的，我本人也是，所以我非常瞭解檢察官現在陷入到工作負擔過重這樣的一個困境，我也想盡辦法來幫忙解決，不但是在爭取人力，而且在案件怎麼樣簡化，包括我們書類不要用太多的敘述方式，能夠用格式化的方式來處理，還有工作環境的改善，我都是盡我最大的努力來完成。"],["吳委員宗憲：是，謝謝部長。秘書長？"],["吳秘書長三龍：委員這些提示，我們都會加以來……"],["吳委員宗憲：我想我剛講的只是很多改善方式的九牛一毛而已，只是我臨時想到的。","最後30秒我講一個，選前有所謂的中共介選疑似違反國安五法，這個部分傳了很多里長，現在開始很多不起訴都出來了，我預測將來很多大量的無罪案例會出來。我不是說這種案子一定不應該辦，而是很多將來能夠成罪的證據其實檢察官、法官是拿不到的，可能在中國那邊，所以這種案子是不是要這樣子大規模的這麼處理，搞得人心惶惶？之所以在這裡講到這點，是因為這同樣造成警察、調查官、法官、檢察官大量的工作量，檢察官可能要偵辦、要起訴，法官可能要核發搜索票，案件量都因為這些政治的問題增加很多。我希望政治的手不要介入司法，因為我跟很多基層的同仁、跟調查官私下吃飯的時候聊天，我說你們幹嘛幹這個，他們跟我說沒辦法，上面有交代。這些是基層跟我講的，是好朋友跟我講的，我比較相信是真的，我不相信官方上面的說法。不好意思耽誤大家和主席這麼多時間，謝謝各位！"],["主席（莊委員瑞雄代）：我擔任主席比較慈悲，都隨便你們說。","接下來請陳培瑜委員，陳培瑜、陳培瑜委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":250,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-16","speakers":["鍾佳濱","沈發惠","羅智強","謝龍介","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","陳俊宇","吳思瑤","黃珊珊","楊瓊瓔","林思銘","吳宗憲","翁曉玲","賴士葆","傅崐萁"],"page_start":187,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就「如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運\n用以降低基層司法體系負擔之成效與精進期程」進行專案報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.0309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大家我們都很清楚檢察官工作的核心是內勤外勤、開庭、寫書類那我今天收到一個報告齁每個檢察官目前的說案量是110件我想部長應該知道這個狀況嘛真他鄉啦對 對"},{"start":44.514,"end":45.014,"text":"我們當年分發的時候"},{"start":71.821,"end":74.324,"text":"我離開檢方是在民國109年但是108年到去年的這個數據以新收案件來說"},{"start":93.044,"end":117.877,"text":"全國的新收案件漲了47%也就是這4年多裡面全國檢方的新收案件漲了47%這跟房價的漲幅都差不多了房價是7年90幾%嘛那檢方的案件是4年多漲了47%我想說這已經到一個完全不合理的狀況了那一個案子我想我們都知道"},{"start":118.917,"end":142.097,"text":"他必須要開庭他收案開庭訊問然後要寫書類要去思考也就是說這樣平均下來一個案子如果每一天超時工作12個小時的話3個小時才能結掉一件那這個會不會已經超過正常的負荷更何況有很多案子"},{"start":143.22,"end":162.279,"text":"我們講一個簡單的啦你說酒醉駕車那個就像寫聯絡簿一樣那麼簡單但是我們有更多的案子其實是要花腦子去思考更多那個人民之間的糾紛其實那個都沒有那麼容易所以說每一個案子在偵查的時候都很辛苦部長這個部分你有什麼想法"},{"start":163.019,"end":173.191,"text":"我同意委員的看法因為數字只是平均而已其實每一個案子的複雜度跟簡易是完全不一樣的有一個案子有時候需要好幾"},{"start":174.48,"end":175.601,"text":"我之前處理過一個貪污案件那個案件一個案子裡面是"},{"start":198.894,"end":220.474,"text":"有十幾個廠商被告到最後超過20個那我書類寫了一個多禮拜然後100多頁那這個也是一個案子所以說我們到最後會不會變成是檢察官或法官他們都去想辦法去追求那些簡單的案子或者是把一個原本應該複雜的案子去把它簡易化"},{"start":221.535,"end":244.857,"text":"這個我想說部長這很重要的一件事情其實這幾年啊大家常常在罵一個東西在罵恐龍法官、恐龍檢察官那我們知道就像我剛說的一個案子我們要月卷開庭、調資料還要寫書類這幾年我不敢跟著大家罵因為我知道問題出在哪裡大家就是一直罵恐龍法官、恐龍檢察官但是我跟各位"},{"start":246.088,"end":262.719,"text":"說明一件事情就好像今天記者一天只能寫兩個稿我要你今天一天寫出十個稿你寫出來的東西品質就會出問題那一樣你用工廠來看好了如果今天這個工廠符合勞基法一個月生產30套設備"},{"start":264.48,"end":290.216,"text":"那我我叫大家不睡覺不休息不陪家人一個月生產能夠經到60號設備但是今天老闆叫你生產到120號設備呢你出來品質良率就變很差今天我看到的司法是這樣所以與其大家一直罵說你這司法有問題司法怎麼樣你要去思考到底我們今天給司法人員什麼樣的環境你發生了什麼事情"},{"start":291.414,"end":319.148,"text":"我們就像我們去看醫生我們覺得看醫生醫生要跟我問診問10分鐘結果沒有啊人越來越多剩5分鐘到最後你現在去看診有1分鐘就請你出去了那你能夠看到什麼我們今天我們一直說法官檢察官有問題腦子有問題結果你弄錯了是你給他的數字出了問題結果東西出來一塌糊塗好我必須講一個啦齁"},{"start":321.584,"end":348.669,"text":"我一直覺得當然我真的舉雙手贊成人力的部分一定要補足但是我想跟各位說一句話笨蛋問題在制度真的是制度出了問題尤其是我們幾年前的司法改革會議其實他把制度改得更複雜更亂結果不要跟我說司法改革成功司法改革成功與否你看為什麼"},{"start":350.184,"end":372.347,"text":"這幾年的司法改革改到司法官累到累到走不下去了或者是人民的滿意度越來越低你就不要跟我說司法改革成功我一直覺得國民法官制度問題重重但是司法院你就是要硬推你也不去管到底"},{"start":373.424,"end":373.444,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":389.716,"end":412.802,"text":"高專業度的制度的修改你卻讓非常多非法律的人你可能找很多社運團體來這邊每個人就只聚焦在一個小問題上面然後要求制度修改但是制度跟制度制度內的每一個點都是環環相扣所以它很多國家的訴訟制度的修改是花了30年50年才慢慢有轉換結果我們這邊竟然是兩個月會議開完全國大改"},{"start":416.623,"end":438.64,"text":"難怪到今天越改司法官累了半死司法官累了人生這條路走不下去然後累到現在中間站立最強的檢察官法官一堆人離職然後到最後我們補了很多新人他們經驗還需要慢慢培養補了很多新人進來案件量越來越多回過頭去罵司法怎麼變那麼爛"},{"start":439.941,"end":468.25,"text":"那我要跟各位報告你以為的司法改革是要改善人民對司法的信任度結果我們的司法改革改得人民對司法越來越不信任這是我看到的司法改革現在的狀況那累死了一堆法官檢察官啦我們自己一路這樣走過來我自己看得很清楚啦現在新分發的檢察官跟法官已經沒有時間去學辦案了"},{"start":469.229,"end":489,"text":"我們以前剛出來很好運我當年出來的時候案件量還算合理我還有時間去學怎麼辦案怎麼跟這些偵查機關、司法、警察相處怎麼樣帶領他們辦案現在新分發的我去跟他們聊天每一個都說每天都在加班寫書類每天都在加班看卷"},{"start":489.6,"end":515.602,"text":"他完全沒有辦法去學社會發生了什麼事結果他們就跟社會越來越脫節他們辦案的功力越來越弱他們出來的書類品質越來越差他們開庭的時間越來越短就司法的品質就越來越差我覺得變成今天這樣子我今天我是很沉痛的點出我們司法今天的問題在這裡我覺得這個是制度面的問題啦我真的是"},{"start":516.523,"end":538.809,"text":"制度面的問題那當然接下來我們還有比喻延長一年比喻延長一年之後這些軍事審判的東西目前都還在普通法院這個也加重了檢察官跟法官的工作量所以所有的東西你就是一直不停的加重加重再加重普通法院的法官跟檢察官的工作量"},{"start":541.445,"end":568.525,"text":"我想齁 這個制度的問題麻煩兩位長官一定要去思考該怎麼辦因為基層他不會把聲音告訴長官們長官們可能聽到的都是身邊幹部的人的想法但是我是一路基層做了20年我所有我現在跟我還在往來的這些法官、檢察官、同學們他們會告訴我第一手的他們痛苦的事情是什麼"},{"start":571.583,"end":594.745,"text":"講一個20幾年前要改交互結婚制度去美國抄了一套交互結婚制度來結果呢有沒有想過美國上訴是多困難啊很多學者說美國甚至只有一審是40審結果我們40審搞了兩個審計同一套制度玩了兩遍消耗多少人力物力害當事人花了多少錢請律師我們都不管"},{"start":596.241,"end":616.541,"text":"這個制度上面不是有很大的問題嗎你抄人家的制度就人家認為一個省級40省就要把它審理完畢上述二省有非常多的限制我就說甚至我們有學者把它歸類它叫做我們的法律省了叫做三省的法律省就我們同一套制度玩兩遍那那個意義在哪裡"},{"start":618.803,"end":631.802,"text":"這段時間我有跟法務部要很多資料啦那甚至我也說像譬如說職權緩起訴處分職權送災的意義在哪我從數據上面來看一點價值都沒有但是卻搞垮了二審的檢察官"},{"start":632.674,"end":654.724,"text":"那一樣就法官而言 法官刑事訴訟、二審肥大政就把二審搞慘了 因為我們上訴有審計利益的問題所以 被告上訴 完全沒有什麼成本 他想上訴就上訴搞得二審案件一大堆法官類的半死那 我希望齁 就是"},{"start":655.794,"end":655.834,"text":"主席"},{"start":671.053,"end":698.614,"text":"後然後我們去提高一些訴訟費用該收費的標準讓有錢人來使用法院應該多交一點錢但是我們擴大訴訟救助的部分讓沒有錢的人也可以享受這個訴訟假性財產犯罪是不是應該要收費不要讓檢察官法官成為全國最大的連鎖討債集團這我以前當檢察官最痛恨的點就是一堆人把假性財產犯罪來叫我幫他討錢"},{"start":700.476,"end":724.55,"text":"這是大家 我想部長一定很清楚這是大家檢察官心裡的痛還有妨礙司法公正是不是我們應該要趕快把它建立起來因為我講到這個議題我自己心裡是感觸很深因為畢竟我是這樣子走過來的那我現在身邊的好朋友也幾乎都還是法官檢察官以前的同學"},{"start":726.656,"end":753.661,"text":"我想說我還是必須要替他們講講話部長或部長有沒有什麼想法謝謝委員指教委員是基層檢察官出身的我本人也是所以我非常了解檢察官現在陷入到工作負擔過重這樣的一個困境那我也想盡辦法來幫忙解決不但是在爭取能力而且在他案件的怎麼樣的簡化"},{"start":755.541,"end":782.872,"text":"包括我們書類不要用太多的這種敘述的方式能夠用格式化的方式來處理還有工作環境的改善我都是盡我最大的努力來完成謝謝部長部長委員這些提示我們都會加以來我想我剛剛講的只是很多改善方式的九牛一毛而已只是我這樣臨時想到了那最後30秒我講一個"},{"start":785.772,"end":805.861,"text":"選前就是我們這個所謂中共借選國安無法這個傳了很多里長那現在開始很多不起訴都出來了那我預測將來很多大量的無罪會出來我不是說這個案子這種案子一定不應該辦而是他很多將來能夠成罪的證據其實檢察官法官是拿不到他可能在"},{"start":806.821,"end":807.961,"text":"吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲議員吳宗憲"},{"start":835.708,"end":836.349,"text":"感謝主席的比例"}]}},{"id":"151665","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151665","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb349ec9ce63dcd20ef6abc9c09ba589754eadb1108e4b84432f08deeda106faf485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。(八)委員林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n(十一)委員莊瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案。\n(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案。(十四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(十五)委員林岱樺等17人擬具「國籍法第二條及第六條條文修正草案」案。(十六)台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案。【第(十四)及(十五)如經院會復議則不予審查：第(十六)如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查】\n113年4月24日（星期三）、4月25日（星期四）上午9時至下午5時30分【二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-14"},"duration":420,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:39:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:32:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":738,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時32分）主席、各位委員，有請國土署署長。"],["主席：請國土署吳署長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：吳署長好。"],["吳署長欣修：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：有關部落聚會所，之前我都是質詢別的部會，過去也偶爾會質詢。我們現在看這個簡報，沒有部落聚會所的話，我們的豐年祭、文化祭就搭非常簡易的，大太陽的時候很熱，下大雨的時候會淋雨，有沒有看到，會淋雨。在鄉下，因為沒有飯店，結婚就是像簡報上這樣子，如果有聚會所，就是在聚會所，所以部落聚會所非常非常的重要，有沒有看到，結婚在這個聚會所，對不對？部落聚會所沒有牆壁，很重要喔！沒有牆壁，所以是有柱子，然後鋼棚。","我們從一個個案來看，希望我們的國土署真的是要看原住民的部落在偏遠地區，文化的祭儀、結婚，甚至喪事都在聚會所舉辦，其實它不是像房子那樣，它是沒有牆壁的，所以它是一個很簡易的，但是卻碰到很多的問題，當然前面很多問題也解決了，過去也謝謝那時候的營建署，修了公共設施用地多目標使用辦法。","我們看簡報上的資料，內政部地政司在去年7月26號答復給當時的營建署，「旨案係請本部依非都市土地使用管制規則第三十條之一第一項第一款規定，會商中央目的事業主管機關認定文化聚會所係由政府興辦之公共設施……」要去認定它是不是公共設施。後來當時的營建署就發文給原民會，原民會在去年的8月15號發函表示，「阿拉巴灣部落文化聚會所興辦事業計畫，屬政府興辦之公共設施」，過去因為沒有經費，現在有經費了，就是花東基金，好不容易有花東基金，卻因為用地的取得而一直延宕，你看從去年到現在。內政部的這個函真的要去檢討，在這裡面，尤其是第四點，我們是要區域計畫法，我們是依區域計畫法、非都市土地使用管制規則，結果你們的答復是考量到國土計畫，對不對？國土計畫就還沒開始啊！"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解委員的意思。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：管制規則就還沒有訂定啊！好不好？所以這個部分要很謹慎。國土計畫法第四十五條，本來已經到期了，又延期，在上一屆我們又把它修正了，現在很多委員又提案要修正，又要延期。所以這個部分，縣市的國土功能分區圖都還沒有嘛！然後國土計畫法第四十五條的最後一項，「直轄市、縣（市）主管機關依前項公告國土功能分區圖之日起，區域計畫法不再適用」，所以目前還在適用區域計畫法。"],["吳署長欣修：沒錯，對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以這個部分是不是可以……"],["吳署長欣修：感謝委員，其實這個部分，第一個當然是一個提醒，第二個就是因為這個案子比較特別，由於它是屬於林業用地，所以它當然還要經過跟農業部的會商、會審，因此這個部分其實也是有一點希望申請單位要加速，如果能在國土計畫法實施之前趕快完成的話，我想過程中我們還是會保持協助，這個態度會繼續。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：署長，不只是這個個案，我們還有很多其他的案，就依現行的區域計畫法及非都市土地使用管制規則來辦理，可以嗎？"],["吳署長欣修：可以，這個沒有問題，本來現行就是這樣……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對啊！但是……"],["吳署長欣修：因為我們新的國土計畫的土管也是最近才要預告……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以你們要趕快，就核定了啦！"],["吳署長欣修：跟委員報告，那個還要會審，因為涉及到林業用地要解編的話，還要農業部……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，那趕快會審啊！"],["吳署長欣修：對，那個要會審。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：就不用請他們再依國土計畫去做處理。"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解，這個我們會啦！跟委員報告，這個我們還是會持續來做。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為後面還有一個案，很多案啦！"],["吳署長欣修：後面還有？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們沒有部落聚會所的還有很多啊！"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解，跟委員報告，我們還是秉持著協助的立場。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，這是一個，就因為剛才那個案例，所以你們在訂定國土計畫土地使用管制規則，包括原住民族土地使用管制規則的時候就必須要考量。"],["吳署長欣修：瞭解，那個在原住民族土地使用管制規則裡面應該都有考慮啦！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不一定在那邊，因為它有時候不是原住民族土地啦！有時候是保留地。"],["吳署長欣修：我瞭解，跟委員報告，因為我們應該本週會開始預告啦！委員的建議我們會重新再檢視一下。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：第一個就是趕快核定，依區域計畫法趕快核定；第二個，管制規則在擬定的時候就必須考量這些，好不好？"],["吳署長欣修：好，了解，我們會努力。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員的發言。","下一位請羅美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":114,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-14","speakers":["吳琪銘","莊瑞雄","羅美玲","陳玉珍","黃捷","陳培瑜","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","吳沛憶","王美惠","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","李柏毅","許宇甄","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","黃國昌","黃珊珊","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳菁徽","陳冠廷","黃仁"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、處理113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計24案；二、審查內政\n部函送國家住宅及都市更新中心113年度預算凍結書面報告案計1案；三、審查113年度中央政府\n總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案計6案；四、審查國籍法部分條文修正草案：(一)\n行政院函請審議「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員羅美玲等18人擬具「國籍法增訂第六\n條之一條文草案」案、(三)委員羅美玲等21人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員\n蘇巧慧等18人擬具「國籍法第二條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(五)委員陳培瑜等18人擬具「國\n籍法增訂第六條之一條文草案」案、(六)委員鄭天財 Sra Kacaw 等19人擬具「國籍法部分條文修\n正草案」案、(七)委員陳玉珍等18人擬具「國籍法第四條及第七條條文修正草案」案、(八)委員\n林宜瑾等21人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(九)委員王美惠等19人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十)委員吳沛憶等17人擬具「國籍法第四條條文修正草案」案、(十一)委員莊\n瑞雄等17人擬具「國籍法部分條文修正草案」案、(十二)委員鍾佳濱等16人擬具「國籍法部分條\n文修正草案」案、(十三)委員黃捷等20人擬具「國籍法第五條及第九條條文修正草案」案、 (十\n四)委員王定宇等20人擬具「國籍法第二條及第十九條條文修正草案」案、 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11:34:55","影片長度":"00:09:20","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算(公務預算)解凍案4案。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":560,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:34:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:25:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":708,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（11時25分）謝謝召委，我請核安會陳主委，是不是也請副主委一起相助一下主委？"],["主席：好，有請陳主委跟張副主委。"],["林委員倩綺：另外，外交部也有代表，是劉專委嗎？如果劉專委這邊，因為有一些……"],["主席：好，請外交部劉專委。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。非常感謝主委前幾天來跟本席做了一些說明，有一些本席注意到的重點，這邊也滿清楚的，昨天也看了貴單位的專案報告，整個敘述20頁，總共6,343頁，針對這個主題寫得也滿詳盡的，我簡單歸類一下，關於去年112年8月24號，日本開始確定執行含氚廢水的排放，應該是貴會，也就是核安會協同外交部、海委會、農業部、衛福部、交通部等相關部會向我們大院報告整個周遭海域含氚廢水的監控與現在還有未來的因應，看來我們是非常嚴密監控日本排放的動態；還有每天的擴散動線，這個主委之前有講過；還有強化海域輻射的監測，落實資訊的公開，所以剛才也有委員提到，未來有一些資訊，如果有一些新的因素加進去，應該怎麼讓民眾知道，也很感謝貴會，重要的結論就是，一切都在掌握當中，請國人放心。","本席這邊有一些想法跟建議，您的報告非常明確，大家一起合作也都可以放心，今天各部會也都有人出席，但是我覺得事實上很重要的是核安會的整體成員，其專業程度就我跟你們的接觸是毋庸置疑的，過去到現在，核安會為醫學領域的貢獻非常多，大家是不是可以考慮摒除所有非理性的反核政治氛圍？我知道貴會目前在醫學領域還是投入非常多。","剛才也有委員講到核能的發展，感覺上現在在臺灣有點像過街老鼠，但是確實在每一個階段，就像貴會講的，核能不是只有拿來發電，核能在各個醫學領域的投入，還有目前相關的輻射部分，我相信貴會是非常專業的，所以如果能夠摒除政治的意識型態，或許未來的發展會更為專業跟正道，貴會的專業絕對毋庸置疑。","這次日本的含氚廢水，在專題報告上，我們知道對象是日本，我們跟日本的關係應該算是還滿有默契的，他們應該對我們也算滿友善，所以相關的數據，還有我們要研議的一些因素，應該是相對容易獲得。在整備跟未來我想都沒有問題，日本跟我們的關係也應該是沒問題，但是關於亞洲地區有核電廠的國家，像剛才前面陳委員也提到中國，他就很關心，如果中國也有這樣的議題呈現，就您剛才的回應看起來，還是我們自己要來處理這件事情，那我們就不知道中國給我們的數據會如何？更何況在亞洲國家，我知道好像印度、中國，還有南韓都有，您在跟本席報告的時候，我們知道臺灣海域跟日本的相互關係，如果今天相似的事情出現在這些也有核能的國家，我們在外交的部分也能夠比照辦理嗎？屆時外交關係能像日本這樣順暢嗎？因為今天來的是臺日關係代表，所以不知道您這邊或部裡面有沒有探討過這樣一個議題？也就是說日本跟我們是比較有默契的，但如果是其他幾個國家發生相關情事的話，我們應該怎麼辦？"],["劉專門委員拓：外交部一貫的立場是配合核安會，在實務上有任何需求的話，我們都會盡力去跟相關國家來協商溝通。"],["林委員倩綺：好，謝謝。我之所以先提醒，是因為剛才陳委員有談到中國。其實不只中國跟印度，先前跟主委討論時有提到，各個海域洋流、湧等等很多海域的狀況，請海委會也多注意，畢竟狀況都不一樣，所以我們是不是應該未雨綢繆？現在我們運氣還滿好的，是跟我們關係不錯的日本，您也是臺日關係的代表，是不是可以把這個資訊帶回部裡面，我們應該未雨綢繆，看是核安會要做兵棋推演，還是外交部要先做準備？這是我的提醒。","日本曾經公布我們也有排放廢水入海，也就是2021年4月份也有……我們已經敲定當他們排放廢水時要進行嚴密監控，這部分你們有公布一些數據，在這邊我就不多談。他們也公布了我們核三廠幾季的排放廢水，也就是排放廢水到海洋跟大氣的狀況，這些其實民眾沒有辦法知道得那麼清晰。會裡面可不可能把這部分資訊轉知得相對比較清楚？就像主委在跟本席報告時，對於承載量或最高值、最低值的法定限值，讓民眾能夠清楚知道相關的比例間距，這樣大家會比較放心。以科學數據基礎來說，怎麼樣才算合理安全？畢竟民眾對於核能安全的瞭解處於兩極化，常常都把很簡單的概念認為這個等於那個，我很感謝會裡面跟我們談到，核能不是只有發電而已。但我們常常把A就等於B，B就等於C，不過裡面其實有很細微的專業因素沒有辦法講清楚，以致大家被誤導，從而變成兩極化，甚至非常對立。所以會裡面未來有沒有可能在這些安全值上，還有核能可以應用的層面上，可以跟社會大眾用比較簡單但有科學根據的話語講清楚？因為這是非常專業的東西，應該稍微逃脫政治的對立性，畢竟是為大眾與人民的安全，所以這是我對會裡面的期待與要求。"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝林委員非常好的建議，我們會努力，謝謝。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝，麻煩了。這其實與幾個部會相關，由於本席經常在海上，一些問題也不好在這邊多問。我也會關心各個不同海域的洋流、湧，而且每個港通通都不一樣，每個碼頭都有很大的差異，就像天氣很好會產生熱對流一樣，我會關心這些很小的因素，但這是個人知道的因素，我不好在這邊多講。但既然是幾個部會一起來支撐核安會，像主委非常注意安全性問題，但在安全之外，核安會應該可以有更大的功能，尤其又有素質齊全又優秀的同仁在會裡面，我期待核能科學能夠更精進。","最後，作為一個原住民我還是要談，會裡面雖然有跟我講到蘭嶼核廢料的問題，我知道會裡面也一直在努力，所以我有幾個訴求：持續監控，但要非常細緻；定期說明，而且要清楚說明，讓大家瞭解。大家心理層面都會被A等於B，B就等於C這樣子的社會氛圍所影響，所以該怎麼突破？最後，對於大家心理的害怕，有沒有可能真的移除，做到大家心裡的期待？所以這還是要當件事，並做短中長期的計畫，好嗎？"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝各單位，大家共勉之。加油！"],["陳主任委員東陽：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員，主委請回。","我們接下來請羅智強委員，羅智強、羅智強委員不在。","我們請鄭天財委員，鄭天財、鄭天財委員不在。","我們請張嘉郡委員，張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員不在。","我們接下來請吳沛憶委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","葉元之","陳培瑜","林倩綺","吳沛憶","楊瓊瓔","張啓楷","范雲","張嘉郡","吳春城"],"page_start":251,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請核能安全委員會主任委員陳東陽、外交部、交通部、衛生福利部、農業部、海洋委員會\n列席就「我國周遭海域含氚廢水監控與因應」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查 113年度中央\n政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算（公務預算）解凍案4案","agenda_id":"1133301_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.384718750000001,"end":4.8572187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.387843750000002,"end":20.399093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.06596875,"end":19.926593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.550968750000003,"end":21.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.44534375,"end":24.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.39409375,"end":33.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.57846875,"end":36.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.00034375,"end":34.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.24034375,"end":50.031593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.048468750000005,"end":50.166593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.369093750000005,"end":116.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.73846875000001,"end":145.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.11784375000002,"end":189.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.79034375,"end":195.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.22409375,"end":208.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.84221875,"end":284.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.55159375,"end":286.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.22659375,"end":302.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.26659375,"end":340.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.65284375000005,"end":355.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.32971875000004,"end":444.33284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.90659375,"end":448.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.05784375,"end":449.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.01971875000004,"end":453.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.27221875000004,"end":551.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.56221875000006,"end":462.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.23284375000003,"end":463.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.13971875000004,"end":465.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.09659375,"end":557.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.3159687500001,"end":553.5478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.2265937500001,"end":557.7834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.01971875,"end":558.7790937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.434,"end":4.654,"text":"請陳副主委跟張副主委"},{"start":25.444,"end":46.682,"text":"那另外外交部也有代表是不是劉專偉嗎如果是劉專偉這邊因為有一些好請外交部劉專偉好謝謝好那非常感謝主委前幾天來跟本席這邊做一些說明那有一些本席注意到的重點那這邊也蠻清楚的"},{"start":47.402,"end":52.364,"text":"昨天也看了大家單位的專案報告整個敘述20頁總共6343頁針對這個主題寫得也蠻詳盡的我簡單的歸類一下關於去年112年8月24日日本開始確定執行含氚廢水的排放"},{"start":74.034,"end":83.442,"text":"貴會、協同外交部、海委會、農業部、衛福部、交通部相關部會向大院報告整個周遭海域含氚廢水監控與未來因應"},{"start":88.206,"end":111.2,"text":"看來我們是非常嚴密的監控日本排放的動態還有每天的擴散動線這個主委之前有講過還有強化海域的輻射的監測那落實資訊的公開所以剛才也有委員這邊提到那未來有一些的資訊那如果有一些新的因素加了進去那未來應該怎麼讓民眾來知道那這個部分也很感謝貴會"},{"start":112.361,"end":138.573,"text":"那重要的結論就是一切都在掌握當中那請國人放心那那個本席這邊有一些想法跟建議那這個東西本席在你們報告非常的明確那這大家的一起合作那大家都可以放心那今天也各部會都有人出席但是我覺得事實上很重要的是核安會整體的成員那個專業程度就我跟你們的接觸是無庸置疑的"},{"start":139.673,"end":157.022,"text":"過去核安會包括在現在為醫學領域的貢獻是非常多的是不是大家可以考慮一下摒除所有非理性的反核的政治氛圍我知道貴會在目前的醫學領域還是投入了非常多"},{"start":157.702,"end":172.228,"text":"那剛才有委員講到這個核能的一個發展感覺上現在在臺灣有點像過街老鼠但是確實在每一個階段就像櫃會講的核能不是只有拿來發電所以核能在各個醫學的"},{"start":172.788,"end":175.351,"text":"二、審查113年度中央政府總預算有關核能安全委員會主管預算"},{"start":189.87,"end":208.041,"text":"好那所以這次日本的含氚廢水在專題報告上我們知道對象是日本那我們跟日本的這個關係應該算是還蠻有默契的所以這次他們應該對我們也算蠻友善的所以相關的數據還有我們要研議的一些因素他們應該是相對容易的獲得"},{"start":208.982,"end":234.256,"text":"那這邊呢就是在整備跟這個未來我想都沒有問題這日本跟我們的關係應該是沒問題但是呢亞洲地區關於有核電廠的國家像剛才前面的陳委員也提到中國那他就很關心如果中國也有這樣的議題呈現那就您剛才的一個回應看起來還是我們自己要來處理這件事情那我們就不知道中國給我們的數據會如何"},{"start":235.717,"end":262.106,"text":"那更何況在亞洲國家我知道好像印度那中國還有南韓都有那您在跟本席報告的時候我們知道台灣的海域然後跟日本的一個相互關係可是如果今天相似的事情出現在這些也有核能的國家那我們在外交的這個部分能夠也比較辦理嗎就是藉時那外交的這個關係能夠像這次日本這樣子這麼的"},{"start":263.466,"end":263.506,"text":"解凍案"},{"start":287.324,"end":306.274,"text":"外交部一貫的立場就是會配合這個核安會他在實務上面有任何的需求我們都會盡力的去跟這個相關的國家來協商溝通好好好 謝謝那剛才我這邊提醒是因為剛才陳委員其實也有先談到中國"},{"start":307.194,"end":326.344,"text":"其實不只中國跟印度我們知道在先前跟主委這邊討論的時候各個海域、洋流、湧等等有很多海域的狀況海委會也請多注意都不一樣所以我們是不是應該未雨綢繆一下現在我們是運氣還蠻好的跟我們關係不錯的日本您也是台日關係的一個代表"},{"start":326.724,"end":355.164,"text":"那是不是可以把這個資訊帶回到部裡面我們應該未雨綢繆那看市核安會呢要有一個兵棋推演那還是外交部這邊要先做一些準備所以這個是我這邊的一個提醒日本也曾經公佈我們其實也有排放這個廢水入海他說我們在2021年4月份也有這個我們已經敲定就是他們的這個廢水"},{"start":356.385,"end":379.191,"text":"排放了 那我們要很嚴密的監控那你們有一些數據公布了那我在這邊就不多談就是他們也公布了我們核三廠幾季的一個排放的廢水那這個包括法國的那個就是說排放廢水到海洋跟大氣裡面的一個狀況那這其實民眾沒有辦法知道的那麼清晰"},{"start":379.591,"end":405.972,"text":"有沒有可能這個會裡面可以把這個部分的資訊轉得相對比較清楚就像主委在跟本席這個報告的時候那對於就是這個承載量或者是就是最高值跟最低值的一個法定限值那讓民眾能夠清楚的知道那這個比例的兼具那大家會比較放心那"},{"start":407.493,"end":433.076,"text":"這個科學數據的一個基礎那怎麼樣合理安全我想這個是民眾對於核能安全了解的一個兩極化那我們常常都把很簡單的概念就這個等於那個那我們很感謝那個會裡面跟我們談到那個核能不只是只有發電而已那我們現在常常把那個A就等於B、B就等於C然後其實裡面有很細微的專業的因素那沒有辦法講清楚"},{"start":433.936,"end":458.533,"text":"就讓大家有些誤導那就變成兩極化然後非常的對立所以有沒有可能會裡面未來在這些安全值上那還有核能可以應用的層面上可以跟社會大眾用比較簡單的但是有科學根據的話語講清楚那因為這是非常專業的東西我們應該稍微這個逃脫政治的這個對立性那都是為大眾跟人民的安全"},{"start":459.053,"end":459.133,"text":"請勿模仿"},{"start":474.028,"end":498.706,"text":"我也會關心那個洋流啊、湧啊在各個不同的海域光是每一個港通都不一樣每一個碼頭都有很大的差異那更何況我們不要講說天氣很好產生的熱對流所以我會關心這些很小的因素但是這是個人知道的因素我不好在這邊多講但是既然幾個部會一起來這個支撐核安會讓我們這樣主委非常注意這個核安全性的問題"},{"start":499.466,"end":527.992,"text":"那在安全之後呢那這個核安會應該可以有更大的功能尤其是有這麼素質齊全和優秀的這個同仁在這個會裡面那我這邊期待我們這個核能的科學能夠更精進那最後作為一個原住民我還是要談雖然會裡面也是有跟我講到有關於蘭嶼的這個核廢料的問題那我知道會裡面也一直在努力所以我就有幾個訴求就是持續的監控但是要非常細緻那定期的說明"},{"start":528.792,"end":550.553,"text":"就是也是一樣就是清楚的說明讓大家了解那當然大家心理層面都會被A等於V然後V就等於C這樣子的社會氛圍所影響所以怎麼樣突破這個然後最後就是確實的大家的這個心裡的害怕有沒有可能真的做到大家心裡的期待的移除那這還是要把它當件事情做短中長期的一個計劃好嗎"},{"start":552.797,"end":557.654,"text":"就謝謝各單位共勉之加油"}]}},{"id":"151663","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151663","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/534e6c42fa7aedb338db03ba9730a5f5b903698ddfaa754aeadb1108e4b844324ecdb07f450427e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:24:43 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11:32:53","影片長度":"00:08:10","會議時間":"2024-04-24T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍-檢討112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【專題報告綜合詢答】\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-24","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":490,"end_time":"2024-04-24T11:32:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-24T11:24:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":701,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時24分）謝謝主席，我們請衛福部部長還有法務部、警政署、金管會、數發部，因為等一下都會問到。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：部長好，按照你們的資料，從去年8月中到今年3月底，衛福部關於非法性影像的收件總共有2,901件，然後處理的案件是767件，成功率是26%，我先請教一下，那剩下兩千多件為什麼沒辦法處理呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：所謂的處理成功應該是指有到檢察官這邊做了……"],["李委員坤城：沒有，不是這樣，這個成案率是指這樣子嗎？成案率是指下架非法影像，還沒有到這一個……"],["薛部長瑞元：我知道，所以那個是成案率啦！"],["李委員坤城：對啊！我的意思是說，為什麼收件有2,900件，但是你們只處理了767件，那剩下2,200件呢？是聯絡不到業者，還是業者不下架？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為剛剛講兩千多件的話，那是有申訴進來的，但是後來有一些我們去查了卻找不到影像，也有的是那個網址是無效的等等，所以真正找得到網址然後影像可以來做比對，這個部分就是767件。"],["李委員坤城：所以其他的2,200件是無法成案的，你說找不到網址，不是說……"],["薛部長瑞元：因為那是民眾的申訴案件進來。"],["李委員坤城：好，在過去封網的條件有兩階段，第一個是業者不配合，另外一個是無法聯繫到業者才能封網，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["李委員坤城：我看你們在這個報告裡面說修法的方向有要精進，可以請部長說明一下嗎？就是你們的行政處分及下架時限要怎麼樣去縮短流程，然後必要時要採取限制接取的方式，那比較明確的方向是什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：第一個就是要封網，因為本來有兩種類型，一種是民眾申訴的是個別的影像或者是錄影，這個在不同的網頁、不同的媒體上面都有可能出現，所以這個必須要用下架的方式。另外一種是網站，有一個網站專門在提供這種……"],["李委員坤城：那我們就講創意私房好了。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，這就是一個網站，如果是屬於網站的話，我們就是希望未來當我們查到有提供這種兒少影像的話，我們就直接封網。"],["李委員坤城：就直接封網？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["李委員坤城：你們要怎麼直接封網？你們還要請數發部他們封網嗎？那要不要經過法院的程序？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，就是以預防性的這種理由直接把它封網。"],["李委員坤城：在過去還要向法院聲請限制令才能交給數發部去做封網，那現在不用了嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，我們希望未來的修法就是這樣，可以直接等於說預防這種性影像的散播，所以我們直接就封網。"],["李委員坤城：就直接可以請數發部他們進行封網就對了？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["李委員坤城：你們如果發現這個性影像跟兒少性剝削有關係，就可以不用經過法院這道程序，直接由你們認定。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["李委員坤城：那你們是由哪個機關來認定？"],["薛部長瑞元：認定當然是衛福部這邊來認定……"],["李委員坤城：衛福部的哪個單位來做認定？"],["薛部長瑞元：就是在保護司底下有設一個性影像處理中心。"],["李委員坤城：就是由它來認定？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["李委員坤城：所以你們直接請數發部來做處理就對了？數發部，關於接下來的程序，修法的方向是這樣子嗎？"],["林組長青嶔：是的，報告委員，在4月19號也就是上禮拜五，衛福部已經針對所有機關去做盤點，已經把相關流程做一個盤點，而且未來修法的方向也擬訂了初步的條文。"],["李委員坤城：就像部長所講的方向嘛！就是行政處理就可以了，不用到法院端就對了？"],["林組長青嶔：報告委員，斷網機制有兩個，一個是法官那邊要去做，另外一個就是行政機關，那現在我們處理的是行政機關的部分，在行政機關的部分，衛福部的條文大概有幾個，就是直接通知四個單位，其中一個是數位部，另外一個是通傳會，因為通傳會負責所有ISP業者，另外一個是教育部負責所謂的學術教育網路，另外一個是IASP業者，就是真正的網際網路接取服務提供者，所以現在條文大概初擬如上。"],["李委員坤城：對這四個單位來做封網的通知嗎？"],["林組長青嶔：不是，是由衛福部整個來……"],["李委員坤城：我是問是衛福部的影像處理中心來做通知就對了？"],["林組長青嶔：對，那個通知叫協助執行，以上報告。"],["李委員坤城：好。運用網路科技主動查察也是衛福部的工作嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前我們是有這一個條文，我們希望能夠有法律的授權，但是實際上執行也不一定就是由衛福部來執行，比方說，如果警政署那邊有這種技術、有這種單位的話，其實由他們來做也可以。"],["李委員坤城：好，因為時間有限，我再問一個問題，現在按照媒體所公布的一些訊息，它說這個創意私房有80名高級會員，然後這80個人還包含醫師、老師、工程師還有軍警，我不曉得法務部或警政署有沒有相關的資料，媒體披露有高級會員80人，如果真的包含老師、軍警，這還蠻嚴重的，你們有相關的資料嗎？或是有任何偵辦的進度嗎？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員報告，有關於剛剛委員垂詢的這件事情，地檢署已經在偵辦中。"],["李委員坤城：的確有這件事情就對了？"],["郭司長永發：還在偵查中。"],["李委員坤城：還在偵查中，好，金管會也有來，現在就是金流要怎麼去斷？因為現在它等於是一個性剝削的產業，然後它現在也使用所謂的泰達幣來加入會員，甚至升級都是用虛擬貨幣，接下來這個金流要怎麼斷？"],["劉組長萬基：報告委員，金管會的部分，本來就要求我們共同完成法遵聲明的這些平臺，他們必須要比照金融機構……"],["李委員坤城：它沒有去登記你們這個法遵聲明，這不可能去登記啦！我問一下法務部或是警政署，關於要斬斷金流這部分有沒有什麼比較具體的計畫？因為查到80人也是因為去查金流才查到這80人，對不對？"],["郭司長永發：跟委員說明，我們洗錢防制法有關於金流的部分，就是有虛擬資產的部分，現在要遵守法遵，要讓它落地等等，這些有規範在洗防法上。"],["李委員坤城：我聽了覺得你們大概還沒有什麼具體的作法，它為什麼能夠死灰復燃，而且人數越來越多？因為它就是會員有收費，本身不斷提升影片，還能夠升級，我的意思是說，前段是屬於影片下架，後段你要去斬斷這個金流，你斬斷這個金流，不管是這個創意私房或是其他類似的網站，才有辦法整個都斷掉啦！因為時間也有限，我是希望你們就斬斷金流這部分能夠再做一個比較具體的報告或是說明出來，好不好？"],["郭司長永發：是。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城委員，接下來請陳亭妃委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":346,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","陳菁徽","廖偉翔","邱鎮軍","王育敏","涂權吉","王正旭","林淑芬","李坤城","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","陳培瑜","黃珊珊","何欣純","黃國昌","李彥秀","洪孟楷","羅智強","徐欣瑩","陳瑩","劉建國","楊曜","盧縣一","蘇清泉","鍾佳濱","牛煦庭"],"page_start":253,"meetingDate":["2024-04-24"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請衛生福利部部長就「家暴零容忍─ 檢討 112年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況」進行專題\n報告，並備質詢；二、邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政\n署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就「非法網站創意私房案件，提出兒少性影像防制具\n體作為、檢討報告，並就兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正方向」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6.443468750000001,"end":14.121593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.294718750000001,"end":14.222843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15.657218750000002,"end":16.652843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.73721875,"end":17.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.56409375,"end":17.918468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.95221875,"end":20.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":20.48346875,"end":31.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":31.40159375,"end":40.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.307218750000004,"end":41.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.99034375,"end":52.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.32659375,"end":53.220968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":52.596593750000004,"end":60.03846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.228468750000005,"end":60.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.22409375,"end":61.742843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":61.16909375,"end":61.759718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.759718750000005,"end":61.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.860968750000005,"end":64.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":64.40909375,"end":72.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.93971875,"end":71.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":72.64409375000001,"end":76.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.58471875000001,"end":76.05284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":76.05284375000001,"end":76.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.08659375,"end":76.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.17096875,"end":101.11221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":101.11221875000001,"end":106.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.12034375,"end":104.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.90909375000001,"end":105.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.07346875,"end":106.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":106.12409375,"end":106.15784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.15784375000001,"end":109.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":106.91721875,"end":107.23784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":107.60909375,"end":107.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":109.85346875,"end":116.04659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":116.28284375000001,"end":118.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":118.54409375,"end":122.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":122.56034375,"end":125.56409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":125.86784375,"end":137.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.08971875,"end":137.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.25846875000002,"end":146.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.93221875,"end":146.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.28221875,"end":148.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.13846875000002,"end":156.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.47909375,"end":162.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":162.60471875000002,"end":164.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.64659375000002,"end":171.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.75096875,"end":172.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.45971875,"end":178.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":178.66971875000002,"end":186.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.61784375000002,"end":191.68034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":191.68034375000002,"end":191.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":191.98409375,"end":196.81034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":196.89471875,"end":201.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.45096875000002,"end":211.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":211.37346875,"end":220.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.56284375,"end":214.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":221.36346875,"end":223.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":223.87784375,"end":225.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":225.53159375,"end":225.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":225.93659375000001,"end":227.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.18096875,"end":231.33659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":230.69534375,"end":231.31971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":231.33659375000002,"end":232.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.73721875,"end":233.00721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.31096875000003,"end":240.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":238.74471875,"end":243.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":244.65096875,"end":245.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":245.14034375000003,"end":245.76471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":245.96721875000003,"end":248.12721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.22846875000002,"end":259.53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928,"text":"就直接封網?你們要怎麼直接封網?你們還要再跟這個速發部再去請他們再封網嗎?那要不要經過這個法院的程序?沒有,就以預防性的這種理由就直接把它封網所以過去的話還要經過這個法院去申請這個限制令才能交給速發部去做封網那現在不用了嗎?"},{"start":201.508,"end":226.865,"text":"沒有,就我們希望再來的修法就是這樣,可以直接等於說預防他的這種性影像的散播,所以我們直接就封網就直接可以請這一個速發部他們就進行這一個封網就對了那所以就是說,你們發現說這個是這個性影像跟這個兒少性剝削有關係的,就可以不用經過法院這道程序,直接你們認定,那你們是哪個機關來認定"},{"start":228.607,"end":243.624,"text":"認定當然是衛福部這邊來認定衛福部哪個單位來做認定保護師他底下有設一個性影像處理中心就是有他的認定所以你們直接就跟數法部來做處理就對了數法部"},{"start":244.565,"end":248.311,"text":"衛務部已經針對所有機關去做盤點,已經把相關流程做一個盤點,而且未來修法方向也擬定了初步的條文。」"},{"start":260.149,"end":283.601,"text":"就像部長他所講的方向,行政處理就可以了,不用到法院端就對了。是,報告委員,動網機制有兩個,一個是法官那邊要去做,另外一個就是行政機關的,那現在我們處理是行政機關的部分。那行政機關的部分,它的條文大概,法務部的條文大概有幾個,就是直接通知所謂四個,一個是數位部,另外一個是通傳會。"},{"start":284.802,"end":297.609,"text":"因為通訊傳播委員會負責所有ISP業者另外一個是教育部負責所謂的學術教育網路另外一個是IASP業者就是所謂的真正的網際網路接取服務提供者所以他現在條文大概處理如上跟這四個單位來做這個封網的通知嗎?"},{"start":302.823,"end":325.733,"text":"不是,是由衛福部整個來...對對對,我說衛福部來通知,是影像處理中心來做通知,對不對?那這個運用網路科技,主動查查,這也是衛福部的工作嗎?目前的話,我們是有這一個條文,我們希望說有能夠有這種法律的授權但是實際上執行的話,也不一定就是由衛福部來執行"},{"start":327.293,"end":353.718,"text":"如果說警政署那邊有這種技術有這種單位的話其實由他們來做也可以時間有限我再問一個現在就是按照媒體他們所公布的一些訊息他說這個創意司法有80名的高級會員然後呢這個80個人還包含醫師、老師、工程師還有軍警而我不曉得這個法務部或是這個警政署有沒有相關的資料"},{"start":356.454,"end":366.519,"text":"是媒體所披露的高級會員80人,那包含上次,如果是包含這個老師啊、軍警啊,這還蠻嚴重的欸,你們有相關的資料嗎?或是說有任何偵辦的進度嗎?"},{"start":370.698,"end":397.083,"text":"跟委員報告,現在有關於剛剛委員垂詢這件事情,地監室已經在偵辦中。對,那的確有這件事情就對了。還在偵查中。還在偵查中。還在偵查。好,那我這,這個金管會也有來啦。就是說,現在就是金流要怎麼去斷啦。因為它現在,這一個它是等於是一個性剝削的產業啦。然後呢,它也現在這個也使用這個所謂的泰達幣來加入會員,甚至升級都是用這個虛擬貨幣。那接下來這個金流要怎麼斷啊?"},{"start":401.949,"end":426.92,"text":"報告委員,我們金管會的部分本來就要求這些跟我們完成法律的聲明這些平台那他們必須要沒有去登記你們這個法律的聲明這不可能去登記啦我問一下法務部或是說警政署關於金流這部分要斬斷這部分有沒有什麼具體的計畫"},{"start":430.711,"end":455.988,"text":"金流這部分,因為他這個查到80個人也是因為去查金流才查到這80個人嘛,對不對?跟委員說明,我們洗錢防治法有關於就金流部分就是有虛擬自產的部分現在要遵守法律,要讓它落地等等這些有規範在這個洗錢防治法上我一聽齁,大概齁你們還沒有什麼具體的做法,他為什麼這個死灰復燃而且人數越來越多,啊因為他就是這個"},{"start":456.969,"end":486.077,"text":"有這個會員有收費那會員收費呢那本身不斷提升影片還能夠升級那我意思是說前段是屬於這個影片下架的那後段你要去斬斷這個金流你斬斷這個金流他這個不管是這個創意思考或是其他類似的網站只要有辦法整個都斷掉啦那我我我因為時間有限那我是希望說你們就斬斷金流這部分的話能夠再做一個比較具體的一個報告或是說明出來好不好好不好好謝謝好謝謝主席"},{"start":487.369,"end":489.394,"text":"和社會福利部部長、國家通訊管理委員會、社會福利部部長、國家通訊管理委員會、社會福利部長、國家通訊管理委員會、"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}