{"total":{"value":62,"relation":"eq"},"page":1,"limit":100,"date":["2024-04-25"],"total_page":1,"ivods":[{"id":"15849","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15849","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fca93ee51fe9883250d697183759547eb63be8d109af184be49f209015185647595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-25","start_time":"2024-04-25T08:35:20+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-17"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-04-25T17:10:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":30880,"委員發言時間":"08:35:20 - 17:10:00","影片長度":"08:34:40","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":1480.27221875,"end":1484.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1485.58784375,"end":1489.4522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1490.11034375,"end":1494.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1495.18971875,"end":1500.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1500.5728437500002,"end":1502.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1502.8678437500002,"end":1505.2303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1505.3990937500002,"end":1507.6265937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1507.69409375,"end":1510.7484687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1510.9847187500002,"end":1512.8240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1513.2797187500003,"end":1520.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1521.05909375,"end":1524.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1525.0078437500001,"end":1528.7034687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1528.9734687500002,"end":1530.9140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1531.18409375,"end":1534.4915937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1534.7784687500002,"end":1537.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1537.4615937500002,"end":1546.4053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1548.2953437500003,"end":1551.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1552.1934687500002,"end":1562.3015937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1562.6390937500003,"end":1564.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1564.64721875,"end":1568.5453437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1569.7940937500002,"end":1572.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1573.75971875,"end":1580.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1580.7290937500002,"end":1587.9009687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1588.2890937500001,"end":1598.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1598.6165937500002,"end":1608.4547187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1609.0453437500003,"end":1613.3822187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1613.7703437500002,"end":1616.5884687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1616.8584687500002,"end":1621.6678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1622.0559687500001,"end":1626.4603437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1627.9453437500001,"end":1630.5103437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1632.1978437500002,"end":1634.4590937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1635.1847187500002,"end":1635.4884687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1635.79221875,"end":1641.5297187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1643.3184687500002,"end":1644.1284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1646.5922187500003,"end":1671.8540937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1672.2422187500001,"end":1681.0340937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1681.48971875,"end":1683.5484687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1683.9534687500002,"end":1688.0372187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1688.1722187500002,"end":1692.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1692.6440937500001,"end":1697.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1698.36471875,"end":1703.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1704.15284375,"end":1709.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1710.1265937500002,"end":1712.2697187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1712.5059687500002,"end":1715.1890937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1715.4253437500001,"end":1729.7859687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1730.4947187500002,"end":1732.7559687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1732.7897187500002,"end":1733.7515937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1733.8865937500002,"end":1747.8590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1748.31471875,"end":1749.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1750.7447187500002,"end":1751.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1751.7740937500002,"end":1752.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1754.9972187500002,"end":1774.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1774.9772187500002,"end":1777.6603437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1777.7784687500002,"end":1779.4490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1779.5840937500002,"end":1784.7984687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1785.0347187500001,"end":1786.0640937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1786.3678437500002,"end":1787.7347187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1787.9203437500003,"end":1788.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1790.2659687500002,"end":1799.6822187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1800.5934687500003,"end":1804.2047187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1804.25534375,"end":1808.4234687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1808.9297187500001,"end":1838.8322187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1842.4097187500001,"end":1848.8053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":1851.2690937500001,"end":1852.4503437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1861.1240937500002,"end":1939.7278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1940.5040937500003,"end":2061.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2065.34534375,"end":2086.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2086.5234687500006,"end":2087.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2088.22784375,"end":2096.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2096.68221875,"end":2099.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2099.31471875,"end":2099.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2102.4197187500004,"end":2123.8678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2124.3572187500004,"end":2124.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2128.0528437500006,"end":2129.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2136.6084687500006,"end":2159.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2160.1490937500002,"end":2172.1640937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2172.7715937500006,"end":2193.4940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2194.1015937500006,"end":2197.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2197.62846875,"end":2205.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2206.5722187500005,"end":2207.3990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2208.8672187500006,"end":2210.3522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2210.7740937500002,"end":2217.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2217.9628437500005,"end":2227.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2228.29034375,"end":2237.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2237.58846875,"end":2241.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2241.31784375,"end":2245.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2245.4522187500006,"end":2289.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2290.5084687500002,"end":2305.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2307.18096875,"end":2313.6778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2313.88034375,"end":2314.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2314.8590937500003,"end":2320.4278437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2320.93409375,"end":2332.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":2340.3065937500005,"end":2531.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2532.59721875,"end":2546.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2546.87346875,"end":2548.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2549.77596875,"end":2550.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2551.09221875,"end":2553.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2553.48846875,"end":2554.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2559.29346875,"end":2584.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2584.9940937500005,"end":2592.1490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2592.8240937500004,"end":2599.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2601.3797187500004,"end":2607.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2607.4209687500006,"end":2627.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2627.4684687500003,"end":2629.3584687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2630.3034687500003,"end":2638.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2638.28534375,"end":2641.7784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2642.4365937500006,"end":2655.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2656.74659375,"end":2657.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2657.64096875,"end":2667.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2667.47909375,"end":2691.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2692.48784375,"end":2701.7184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2702.0390937500006,"end":2703.0009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2703.4059687500003,"end":2706.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2706.93284375,"end":2713.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2713.63221875,"end":2734.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2734.37159375,"end":2751.6853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2752.1747187500005,"end":2753.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2754.4697187500005,"end":2763.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2763.4472187500005,"end":2768.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2769.48846875,"end":2833.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2833.69784375,"end":2836.9040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2837.41034375,"end":2850.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2851.3153437500005,"end":2854.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2854.8253437500007,"end":2873.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2874.9403437500005,"end":2885.5547187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2886.24659375,"end":2933.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":2933.47971875,"end":2943.1659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2944.6003437500003,"end":2948.8865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2950.72596875,"end":2957.3409687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2957.7965937500003,"end":2974.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2987.37846875,"end":2988.9140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2989.7578437500006,"end":2994.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2994.65159375,"end":2995.8328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2996.33909375,"end":3000.7772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3000.9122187500006,"end":3007.3415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3007.5440937500007,"end":3012.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3013.70346875,"end":3018.2597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3018.9684687500003,"end":3021.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3021.78659375,"end":3026.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3027.3047187500006,"end":3029.0428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3029.7178437500006,"end":3049.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3050.40659375,"end":3051.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3051.4697187500005,"end":3056.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3057.51096875,"end":3061.9490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3062.45534375,"end":3067.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3068.24346875,"end":3069.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3072.9347187500007,"end":3073.8122187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3073.8122187500003,"end":3075.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3075.5840937500006,"end":3081.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3081.6084687500006,"end":3085.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3086.08034375,"end":3117.9909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3092.00346875,"end":3092.2565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3094.95659375,"end":3094.9903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3094.9903437500006,"end":3095.2097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3118.3622187500005,"end":3123.1378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3123.62721875,"end":3125.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3125.56784375,"end":3127.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3127.4578437500004,"end":3128.7403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3129.66846875,"end":3132.9928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3133.3134687500005,"end":3134.8659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3135.5409687500005,"end":3137.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3138.3590937500003,"end":3146.4928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3147.97784375,"end":3155.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3156.24659375,"end":3159.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3159.6553437500006,"end":3161.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3161.2584687500002,"end":3162.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3162.5409687500005,"end":3165.7303437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3165.94971875,"end":3179.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3180.9347187500007,"end":3190.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3190.7897187500002,"end":3197.2697187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3191.7178437500006,"end":3196.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3197.0672187500004,"end":3197.2022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3197.2697187500007,"end":3200.9315937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3200.7965937500003,"end":3212.1872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3210.4490937500004,"end":3210.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3210.97221875,"end":3211.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3212.6765937500004,"end":3218.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3219.03846875,"end":3222.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3223.8815937500003,"end":3234.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3234.95159375,"end":3235.6603437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3235.86284375,"end":3238.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3238.69784375,"end":3240.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3241.04346875,"end":3241.5665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3242.73096875,"end":3245.5997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3245.5997187500006,"end":3247.2028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3247.7090937500006,"end":3249.9197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3250.4259687500007,"end":3250.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3251.2697187500007,"end":3258.8972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3254.5772187500006,"end":3254.9822187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3256.16346875,"end":3256.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3259.60596875,"end":3261.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3262.25534375,"end":3266.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3262.42409375,"end":3263.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3264.01034375,"end":3264.8709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3266.6259687500005,"end":3276.8184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3267.2840937500005,"end":3267.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3271.5028437500005,"end":3271.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3275.0128437500007,"end":3275.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3275.09721875,"end":3275.2322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3275.2322187500004,"end":3275.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3277.13909375,"end":3284.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3285.3572187500004,"end":3287.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3287.93909375,"end":3290.3184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3290.8584687500006,"end":3294.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3295.39784375,"end":3299.9034687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3300.1228437500004,"end":3302.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3303.0759687500004,"end":3313.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3317.1328437500006,"end":3326.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3326.66721875,"end":3327.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3326.7178437500006,"end":3327.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3327.10596875,"end":3327.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3327.6797187500006,"end":3335.2059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3327.76409375,"end":3327.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3335.77971875,"end":3342.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3343.18784375,"end":3347.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3347.84534375,"end":3349.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3350.12346875,"end":3358.9997187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3359.3034687500003,"end":3372.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3373.57971875,"end":3375.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3375.73971875,"end":3384.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3385.32471875,"end":3386.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3388.1090937500003,"end":3389.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3389.72909375,"end":3397.7615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3398.16659375,"end":3399.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3400.1915937500007,"end":3403.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3402.48659375,"end":3406.4353437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3406.4353437500004,"end":3409.4728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3410.0465937500003,"end":3414.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3416.05409375,"end":3416.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3417.1847187500007,"end":3417.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3419.56409375,"end":3428.3222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3428.6090937500003,"end":3433.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3435.39284375,"end":3462.6290937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3462.0215937500006,"end":3466.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3463.0509687500007,"end":3465.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3466.0547187500006,"end":3478.7615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3477.47909375,"end":3478.5253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3478.7615937500004,"end":3482.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3482.28846875,"end":3484.9884687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3486.3553437500004,"end":3487.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3489.93284375,"end":3495.9909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3496.63221875,"end":3498.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3500.12534375,"end":3500.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3501.6778437500006,"end":3508.6134687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3509.3728437500004,"end":3512.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3513.03471875,"end":3519.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3520.4597187500003,"end":3526.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3528.0703437500006,"end":3530.4159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3529.2853437500007,"end":3530.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3530.44971875,"end":3530.9728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3530.9728437500007,"end":3531.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3531.7490937500006,"end":3533.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3534.36471875,"end":3535.44471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3535.44471875,"end":3536.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3535.4615937500002,"end":3535.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3537.26721875,"end":3541.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3539.54534375,"end":3542.2959687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3542.2959687500006,"end":3542.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3542.32971875,"end":3542.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3542.97096875,"end":3545.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3545.7890937500006,"end":3545.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3545.94096875,"end":3546.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3547.30784375,"end":3547.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3549.07971875,"end":3550.6153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3551.12159375,"end":3558.6140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3559.5253437500005,"end":3564.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3568.5197187500007,"end":3574.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3574.0378437500003,"end":3578.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3578.8134687500005,"end":3580.5515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3581.4628437500005,"end":3590.8115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3585.1922187500004,"end":3585.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3588.53346875,"end":3588.7022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3592.21221875,"end":3592.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3592.22909375,"end":3592.9040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3592.9040937500004,"end":3592.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3594.1697187500004,"end":3598.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3597.2578437500006,"end":3602.8434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3599.21534375,"end":3599.2490937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3599.4853437500005,"end":3599.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3601.5440937500007,"end":3601.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3601.79721875,"end":3601.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3603.4678437500006,"end":3609.4922187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3610.72409375,"end":3611.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3611.87159375,"end":3615.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3617.05221875,"end":3618.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3617.1365937500004,"end":3618.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3618.43596875,"end":3618.6553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3618.6553437500006,"end":3618.7228437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3618.7228437500007,"end":3621.3553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3619.02659375,"end":3619.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3622.30034375,"end":3636.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3625.55721875,"end":3625.5909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3625.5909687500007,"end":3625.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3625.96221875,"end":3625.9959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3636.9647187500004,"end":3638.1290937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3638.19659375,"end":3638.7028437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3638.92221875,"end":3639.9347187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3641.1159687500003,"end":3641.5040937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3641.57159375,"end":3645.5709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3645.9422187500004,"end":3647.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3647.6803437500002,"end":3648.1865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3648.6590937500005,"end":3651.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3651.4265937500004,"end":3652.9453437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3653.3503437500003,"end":3653.7890937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3654.3965937500006,"end":3658.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3658.68284375,"end":3658.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3658.86846875,"end":3659.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3659.59409375,"end":3659.6278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3660.1172187500006,"end":3660.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3660.13409375,"end":3667.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3683.9784687500005,"end":3685.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3686.4590937500006,"end":3687.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3690.22221875,"end":3691.0153437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3691.0153437500003,"end":3691.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3691.0322187500005,"end":3691.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3691.58909375,"end":3715.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3714.01596875,"end":3714.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3714.03284375,"end":3714.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3716.0240937500002,"end":3717.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3717.62721875,"end":3733.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3733.5065937500003,"end":3793.6828437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3794.6447187500007,"end":3795.1847187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3795.57284375,"end":3802.4747187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3801.8165937500007,"end":3802.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3802.9978437500004,"end":3805.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3805.57971875,"end":3806.2547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3806.10284375,"end":3814.2703437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3814.55721875,"end":3820.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3817.1559687500003,"end":3817.3584687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3819.18096875,"end":3832.1915937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3832.3097187500007,"end":3838.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3838.6884687500005,"end":3851.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3851.8678437500002,"end":3853.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3854.33159375,"end":3865.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3865.2159687500007,"end":3868.5740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3868.65846875,"end":3877.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":3870.1940937500003,"end":3870.6159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3877.82159375,"end":3894.0722187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":3894.5109687500008,"end":3901.8515937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3901.93596875,"end":3955.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3956.29034375,"end":3958.1803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3958.6697187500004,"end":3959.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3960.4247187500005,"end":3972.8953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3973.2497187500003,"end":3974.6503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":3974.1103437500005,"end":3974.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3975.69659375,"end":3981.4678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3982.15971875,"end":3990.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3991.5422187500008,"end":3994.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3994.79909375,"end":3998.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":3998.54534375,"end":4001.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4002.1228437500004,"end":4009.2609687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4009.44659375,"end":4027.8234687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4027.95846875,"end":4028.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4029.1228437500004,"end":4061.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":4048.51221875,"end":4048.7822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4061.28659375,"end":4133.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4134.135968750001,"end":4139.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4139.45159375,"end":4148.479718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4148.88471875,"end":4159.532843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4160.5115937499995,"end":4209.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4209.364718750001,"end":4288.440968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4272.24096875,"end":4272.7303437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4289.1834687499995,"end":4294.819718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":4295.5790937500005,"end":4307.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":4309.56846875,"end":4343.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4362.80909375,"end":4365.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4366.673468749999,"end":4367.702843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4369.964093750001,"end":4394.804093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4370.21721875,"end":4370.2509687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4370.2509687500005,"end":4370.993468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4370.993468750001,"end":4371.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4395.360968749999,"end":4429.920968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4430.663468750001,"end":4450.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4453.815968749999,"end":4476.3778437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4476.5634687500005,"end":4477.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4478.655968749999,"end":4486.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4482.604718750001,"end":4482.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4484.59596875,"end":4498.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4498.23096875,"end":4509.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4509.75659375,"end":4516.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4516.776593750001,"end":4518.970343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4520.16846875,"end":4525.264718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4525.905968749999,"end":4529.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4530.276593750001,"end":4550.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4546.307843750001,"end":4547.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4549.69971875,"end":4552.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4550.762843750001,"end":4558.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4558.27221875,"end":4558.626593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4559.149718750001,"end":4569.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4569.91596875,"end":4590.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4589.82846875,"end":4607.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4607.59784375,"end":4628.2528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4627.13909375,"end":4629.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4629.467843750001,"end":4637.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4630.632218750001,"end":4630.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4632.10034375,"end":4635.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4635.30659375,"end":4635.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4638.61409375,"end":4657.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4658.526593750001,"end":4671.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4671.77346875,"end":4685.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4686.11721875,"end":4693.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4693.2215937500005,"end":4694.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4694.55471875,"end":4696.343468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4696.107218749999,"end":4698.4022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":4698.35159375,"end":4699.954718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4699.7353437500005,"end":4709.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4710.29909375,"end":4724.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4724.77784375,"end":4743.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4742.530343750001,"end":4752.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4752.132218750001,"end":4752.419093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4752.790343750001,"end":4781.376593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4781.663468750001,"end":4800.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4800.66471875,"end":4816.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4817.03346875,"end":4855.170968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4856.03159375,"end":4883.655968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4884.280343750001,"end":4899.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4898.87721875,"end":4900.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4900.446593750001,"end":4942.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4940.6259687500005,"end":4951.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4950.39659375,"end":4954.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4954.446593750001,"end":4954.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4954.64909375,"end":4954.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":4954.66596875,"end":4981.7840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4954.69971875,"end":4954.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4981.93596875,"end":5004.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5004.71721875,"end":5005.999718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5006.59034375,"end":5008.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5008.817843750001,"end":5035.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5034.687218749999,"end":5045.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5045.03159375,"end":5046.499718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5047.545968750001,"end":5051.9334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5053.064093749999,"end":5053.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5060.337218750001,"end":5065.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5066.243468750001,"end":5067.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5070.310343749999,"end":5071.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5071.575968749999,"end":5084.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5084.755343750001,"end":5100.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5101.107218749999,"end":5113.780343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5114.337218750001,"end":5115.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5116.41284375,"end":5117.189093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5117.577218750001,"end":5119.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5120.327843749999,"end":5123.989718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5124.44534375,"end":5126.385968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5127.01034375,"end":5130.267218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5131.14471875,"end":5133.321593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5133.743468750001,"end":5134.249718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5134.637843750001,"end":5154.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5154.499718749999,"end":5199.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5199.876593749999,"end":5203.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5203.639718750001,"end":5204.939093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5204.9559687500005,"end":5204.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5205.20909375,"end":5207.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5207.6728437500005,"end":5207.858468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5207.858468750001,"end":5210.474093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5210.54159375,"end":5210.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5210.59221875,"end":5210.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5210.8622187500005,"end":5222.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5220.29534375,"end":5223.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5223.315968750001,"end":5226.555968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5227.04534375,"end":5234.841593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5234.993468750001,"end":5236.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5236.41096875,"end":5254.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5240.17409375,"end":5240.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5254.88909375,"end":5277.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5277.53534375,"end":5279.475968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5279.999093750001,"end":5318.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5319.0478437500005,"end":5325.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5325.57846875,"end":5332.632218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5332.9697187500005,"end":5336.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5336.715968750001,"end":5341.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5341.84596875,"end":5342.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5343.38159375,"end":5344.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5345.08596875,"end":5353.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5354.097218750001,"end":5355.126593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5355.464093750001,"end":5365.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5366.21346875,"end":5366.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5367.19221875,"end":5368.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5369.35221875,"end":5374.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5374.80284375,"end":5376.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5376.62534375,"end":5381.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5382.092843750001,"end":5383.577843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5383.66221875,"end":5390.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5391.05346875,"end":5403.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5403.99659375,"end":5404.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5405.093468749999,"end":5423.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5424.465968750001,"end":5426.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5426.794718749999,"end":5428.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5429.22471875,"end":5443.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5441.03721875,"end":5441.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5443.65284375,"end":5467.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5443.686593750001,"end":5443.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5443.99034375,"end":5444.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5445.458468750001,"end":5445.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5467.88534375,"end":5470.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5471.63159375,"end":5482.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5483.12346875,"end":5484.827843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5485.28346875,"end":5504.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5505.95534375,"end":5507.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5507.35596875,"end":5509.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5509.65096875,"end":5510.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5510.07284375,"end":5532.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5533.073468750001,"end":5542.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5541.84846875,"end":5545.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5546.13471875,"end":5558.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5559.280343750001,"end":5575.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5576.45909375,"end":5584.727843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5585.26784375,"end":5594.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5594.5322187500005,"end":5603.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5603.83034375,"end":5604.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5605.18034375,"end":5607.981593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5608.200968749999,"end":5617.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5617.27971875,"end":5618.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5619.01784375,"end":5631.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5631.99471875,"end":5633.749718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5634.34034375,"end":5635.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5635.65659375,"end":5640.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5641.24221875,"end":5642.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5643.01409375,"end":5677.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5660.530343750001,"end":5660.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5660.73284375,"end":5660.749718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5677.9959687499995,"end":5680.5272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5679.85221875,"end":5681.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5681.843468749999,"end":5696.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5697.48659375,"end":5697.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5698.499093750001,"end":5699.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5700.186593750001,"end":5701.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5702.26221875,"end":5702.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5703.696593750001,"end":5704.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5704.97909375,"end":5706.312218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5706.39659375,"end":5709.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5710.294718749999,"end":5712.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5712.977843750001,"end":5716.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5717.6522187499995,"end":5721.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5722.157843749999,"end":5725.954718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5726.54534375,"end":5738.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5738.27346875,"end":5757.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5758.304093750001,"end":5759.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5759.60346875,"end":5777.9803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5778.503468750001,"end":5780.376593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5781.30471875,"end":5821.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5821.669718749999,"end":5848.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5850.10409375,"end":5850.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5850.644093750001,"end":5851.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5851.065968750001,"end":5851.116593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5851.2684687500005,"end":5857.1747187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5857.259093750001,"end":5860.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5861.292218750001,"end":5864.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5865.00471875,"end":5870.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5870.96159375,"end":5874.876593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5875.0115937499995,"end":5878.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":5878.52159375,"end":5881.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5882.30159375,"end":5882.942843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5882.942843750001,"end":5888.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5905.23471875,"end":5907.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":5908.47471875,"end":5910.786593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5913.57096875,"end":5924.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5924.759093750001,"end":5931.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5931.76221875,"end":5991.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5967.30096875,"end":5967.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5972.009093750001,"end":5972.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5991.9384687500005,"end":6001.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6004.37534375,"end":6004.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6005.759093750001,"end":6006.417218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6006.417218750001,"end":6010.821593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6011.39534375,"end":6022.060343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6022.870343750001,"end":6025.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6025.57034375,"end":6033.501593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6033.501593750001,"end":6034.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6034.17659375,"end":6034.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6034.85159375,"end":6034.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6034.9697187500005,"end":6035.003468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6035.003468750001,"end":6035.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6035.03721875,"end":6035.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":6035.054093750001,"end":6035.104718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6035.6278437500005,"end":6043.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6044.30159375,"end":6051.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6051.169718749999,"end":6051.220343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6052.587218750001,"end":6053.751593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6053.481593750001,"end":6095.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6053.903468750001,"end":6055.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6095.6522187499995,"end":6096.782843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6097.2215937500005,"end":6103.262843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6103.75221875,"end":6125.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6122.9559687500005,"end":6123.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6124.08659375,"end":6124.677218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6125.53784375,"end":6125.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6125.79096875,"end":6130.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6131.22471875,"end":6139.442843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6139.679093750001,"end":6141.653468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6142.17659375,"end":6152.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6152.03159375,"end":6153.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6153.95534375,"end":6153.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6154.98471875,"end":6160.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6160.97534375,"end":6165.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6165.413468750001,"end":6167.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6167.40471875,"end":6174.593468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6175.57221875,"end":6181.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6182.87909375,"end":6185.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6185.747843749999,"end":6187.114718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6188.700968749999,"end":6189.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6191.45159375,"end":6193.155968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6193.71284375,"end":6196.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6197.44221875,"end":6199.669718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6200.46284375,"end":6202.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6203.31471875,"end":6204.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6205.27221875,"end":6206.622218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6207.58409375,"end":6209.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6209.946593750001,"end":6211.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6213.169718749999,"end":6215.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6215.02596875,"end":6216.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6217.28721875,"end":6220.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6222.80534375,"end":6223.9697187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6223.9697187500005,"end":6224.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6224.45909375,"end":6233.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6234.314093750001,"end":6237.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6238.212218750001,"end":6239.798468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6240.507218750001,"end":6243.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6244.27034375,"end":6247.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6247.577843749999,"end":6248.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6248.995343750001,"end":6250.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6250.98659375,"end":6253.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6254.192843750001,"end":6255.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6255.5428437499995,"end":6256.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6256.94346875,"end":6258.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6258.968468749999,"end":6260.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6260.6728437500005,"end":6261.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6261.95534375,"end":6263.609093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6264.132218750001,"end":6272.704718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6273.042218750001,"end":6274.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6274.679093750001,"end":6278.948468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6279.404093749999,"end":6282.745343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6282.9647187499995,"end":6284.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6286.84596875,"end":6295.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6295.57034375,"end":6305.577218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6306.10034375,"end":6308.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6308.749718749999,"end":6310.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6311.68596875,"end":6322.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6323.92034375,"end":6325.439093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6326.147843750001,"end":6328.307843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6328.98284375,"end":6331.446593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6332.138468749999,"end":6336.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6337.31909375,"end":6338.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6339.00659375,"end":6344.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6345.99284375,"end":6347.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6347.88284375,"end":6350.059718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6351.274718750001,"end":6353.4853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6353.68784375,"end":6355.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6355.965968750001,"end":6366.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6367.28909375,"end":6370.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6370.46159375,"end":6372.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6373.077218750001,"end":6376.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6377.7684687500005,"end":6378.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6380.046593749999,"end":6380.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6381.5653437500005,"end":6384.33284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6384.872843749999,"end":6385.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6385.9697187500005,"end":6387.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6387.43784375,"end":6390.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6391.352843750001,"end":6392.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6392.669093750001,"end":6393.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6394.00221875,"end":6395.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6396.465968750001,"end":6397.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6398.22096875,"end":6402.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6403.13159375,"end":6404.380343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6404.937218749999,"end":6409.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6410.4384687500005,"end":6424.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6424.83284375,"end":6426.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6428.106593750001,"end":6431.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6432.173468750001,"end":6450.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6451.073468750001,"end":6453.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6453.7059687500005,"end":6459.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6460.79346875,"end":6470.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6470.63159375,"end":6472.2684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6472.89284375,"end":6473.618468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6474.52971875,"end":6477.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6477.98909375,"end":6479.845343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6480.368468750001,"end":6489.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6489.63284375,"end":6490.864718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6490.965968750001,"end":6491.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6491.08409375,"end":6502.069718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6502.069718750001,"end":6502.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6502.93034375,"end":6502.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6502.94721875,"end":6504.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6504.7528437500005,"end":6506.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6507.01409375,"end":6508.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6509.27534375,"end":6510.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6511.350968750001,"end":6512.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6513.089093750001,"end":6514.860968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6515.45159375,"end":6516.936593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6516.970343750001,"end":6517.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6517.493468750001,"end":6521.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6522.15096875,"end":6524.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6525.9647187499995,"end":6526.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6527.567843750001,"end":6528.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6529.05284375,"end":6535.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6531.314093750001,"end":6533.001593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6533.997218750001,"end":6534.689093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6535.077218750001,"end":6535.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6535.212218750001,"end":6536.140343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6536.292218750001,"end":6536.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6536.44409375,"end":6539.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6540.325343750001,"end":6542.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6543.2615937499995,"end":6544.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6547.51409375,"end":6549.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6549.319718750001,"end":6550.349093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6550.75409375,"end":6556.255343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6556.626593750001,"end":6561.452843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6561.90846875,"end":6565.064093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6565.84034375,"end":6572.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6573.602843750001,"end":6576.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6579.91409375,"end":6580.437218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6581.55096875,"end":6582.749093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6582.749093750001,"end":6582.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6582.884093750001,"end":6582.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6582.90096875,"end":6585.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6585.0272187499995,"end":6586.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6586.56284375,"end":6591.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6590.03909375,"end":6591.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6591.81096875,"end":6594.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6596.45159375,"end":6602.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6602.897843750001,"end":6604.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6604.46721875,"end":6605.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6605.91846875,"end":6607.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6607.75784375,"end":6608.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6609.20909375,"end":6610.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6613.1747187500005,"end":6614.187218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6615.0478437500005,"end":6615.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6616.19534375,"end":6617.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6617.3934687500005,"end":6619.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6622.675343750001,"end":6623.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6624.44721875,"end":6625.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6626.11784375,"end":6628.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6628.56471875,"end":6629.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6630.927218750001,"end":6631.686593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6631.686593750001,"end":6631.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6632.26034375,"end":6633.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6633.036593750001,"end":6633.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6634.302218750001,"end":6638.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6639.128468750001,"end":6649.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6649.10159375,"end":6656.290343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6657.20159375,"end":6660.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6660.91409375,"end":6664.45784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6665.6728437500005,"end":6667.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6668.49096875,"end":6669.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6671.190968750001,"end":6677.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6677.940968750001,"end":6684.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6684.420968750001,"end":6687.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6687.036593750001,"end":6687.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6687.25596875,"end":6689.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6689.82096875,"end":6689.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6689.83784375,"end":6689.854718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6689.854718750001,"end":6689.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6691.00221875,"end":6705.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6713.091593749999,"end":6713.108468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6713.108468750001,"end":6714.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6714.9647187499995,"end":6715.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":6716.36534375,"end":6717.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6719.79096875,"end":6719.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6719.82471875,"end":6720.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6720.7528437500005,"end":6730.6415937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6731.249093750001,"end":6733.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6733.679093750001,"end":6747.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6747.735968750001,"end":6752.8153437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6753.4228437500005,"end":6759.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6759.63284375,"end":6775.444718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6776.22096875,"end":6777.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6778.3134687500005,"end":6784.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6789.53534375,"end":6795.509093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6793.19721875,"end":6793.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6794.7665937500005,"end":6815.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6815.97846875,"end":6828.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6829.1747187500005,"end":6829.765343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6830.06909375,"end":6837.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6837.44346875,"end":6841.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6842.0165937500005,"end":6859.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6859.80284375,"end":6865.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6865.725968750001,"end":6867.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6867.24471875,"end":6867.278468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6869.21909375,"end":6873.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6874.12971875,"end":6880.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6878.905343750001,"end":6879.782843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6880.964093750001,"end":6882.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6883.309718750001,"end":6889.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6892.08471875,"end":6892.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6892.33784375,"end":6901.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6892.65846875,"end":6892.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6892.79346875,"end":6892.9959687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6896.759093750001,"end":6897.872843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6901.450343750001,"end":6903.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6903.9647187499995,"end":6914.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6903.981593750001,"end":6904.015343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6904.0322187500005,"end":6904.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6915.692843750001,"end":6932.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6925.395968750001,"end":6925.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6927.48846875,"end":6927.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6932.9559687500005,"end":6938.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6938.710343750001,"end":6942.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6942.72659375,"end":6943.958468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6943.36784375,"end":6944.717843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6944.565968750001,"end":6944.751593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6944.751593750001,"end":6944.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6944.83596875,"end":6949.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6948.00846875,"end":6949.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6949.122218750001,"end":6949.9490937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6949.84784375,"end":6967.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6967.499093750001,"end":6968.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6968.46096875,"end":6968.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6968.96721875,"end":6973.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6974.704718750001,"end":6978.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6979.88534375,"end":6979.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":6979.9022187499995,"end":6996.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6996.89534375,"end":7008.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7008.10034375,"end":7026.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7025.83596875,"end":7026.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7026.882218750001,"end":7039.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7040.010968750001,"end":7049.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7049.477843750001,"end":7050.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7050.321593750001,"end":7053.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7053.89909375,"end":7062.4715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7061.50971875,"end":7064.564093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7064.564093750001,"end":7065.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7065.694718750001,"end":7070.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7068.47909375,"end":7069.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7070.58846875,"end":7071.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7071.06096875,"end":7086.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7087.75034375,"end":7099.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7094.010968750001,"end":7094.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7095.310343749999,"end":7099.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7099.309718750001,"end":7099.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7099.343468750001,"end":7115.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7100.001593750001,"end":7101.689093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7115.762843750001,"end":7133.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7117.97346875,"end":7118.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7118.20971875,"end":7118.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7134.3759687500005,"end":7139.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7136.31659375,"end":7136.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7139.32034375,"end":7144.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7144.65284375,"end":7145.243468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7145.850968750001,"end":7145.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7145.96909375,"end":7146.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7146.20534375,"end":7146.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7146.222218750001,"end":7146.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7146.28971875,"end":7146.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7146.9647187499995,"end":7156.2459687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7156.2459687499995,"end":7176.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7172.007218750001,"end":7172.614718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7174.251593750001,"end":7174.589093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7175.247218750001,"end":7175.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7176.39471875,"end":7176.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7176.42846875,"end":7176.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7176.71534375,"end":7181.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7181.92971875,"end":7186.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7186.857218749999,"end":7192.257218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7192.257218750001,"end":7214.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7192.9490937499995,"end":7193.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7214.329718750001,"end":7217.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7217.02971875,"end":7247.522843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7236.216593749999,"end":7236.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7246.071593750001,"end":7255.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7249.24409375,"end":7250.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7255.92659375,"end":7261.157843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7262.372843749999,"end":7262.845343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7263.80721875,"end":7264.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7264.7353437500005,"end":7286.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7286.72346875,"end":7296.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7298.232218749999,"end":7308.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7321.70534375,"end":7326.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7326.413468750001,"end":7328.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7330.24409375,"end":7330.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7330.69971875,"end":7331.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7331.88096875,"end":7340.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7338.884093750001,"end":7339.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7340.45346875,"end":7358.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7358.96534375,"end":7376.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7377.02159375,"end":7379.704718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7379.92409375,"end":7381.358468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7381.814093750001,"end":7383.5184687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7383.974093750001,"end":7387.4334687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7387.93971875,"end":7393.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7393.84596875,"end":7398.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7398.975968750001,"end":7457.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7458.274718750001,"end":7524.374093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7524.57659375,"end":7532.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7532.5584687499995,"end":7538.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7539.49409375,"end":7547.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7547.40846875,"end":7549.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7549.5009687500005,"end":7551.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7551.44159375,"end":7575.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7576.028468750001,"end":7614.182843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7598.08409375,"end":7601.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7610.993468750001,"end":7612.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7613.74409375,"end":7614.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7614.182843750001,"end":7614.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7614.2840937500005,"end":7614.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7614.975968750001,"end":7669.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7670.30909375,"end":7698.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7698.25409375,"end":7700.3465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7700.44784375,"end":7710.825968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7711.163468750001,"end":7713.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7714.36971875,"end":7716.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7717.440968750001,"end":7723.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7724.798468750001,"end":7725.135968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7732.66221875,"end":7734.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":7737.10034375,"end":7737.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7746.972218750001,"end":7747.545968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7747.545968750001,"end":7747.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7748.67659375,"end":7771.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7771.93034375,"end":7773.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7773.7528437500005,"end":7775.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7775.811593750001,"end":7778.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7778.46096875,"end":7781.279093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7781.65034375,"end":7791.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7791.62346875,"end":7795.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7795.8084687499995,"end":7796.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7797.0740937499995,"end":7799.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7799.942843750001,"end":7801.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7801.343468750001,"end":7813.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7814.06721875,"end":7820.530343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7820.935343749999,"end":7835.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7835.667218750001,"end":7839.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7840.679093750001,"end":7849.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7849.774718750001,"end":7884.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7884.689093750001,"end":7901.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7901.04096875,"end":7902.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7903.04909375,"end":7904.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7905.360968750001,"end":7906.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7906.93034375,"end":7908.887843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7909.47846875,"end":7910.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7911.33471875,"end":7915.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7915.907843750001,"end":7926.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7927.51784375,"end":7934.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7935.53346875,"end":7937.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7937.82846875,"end":7943.245343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7943.937218750001,"end":7944.932843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7945.23659375,"end":7955.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7955.91846875,"end":7961.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7961.942843750001,"end":7964.794718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7965.452843750001,"end":7994.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7995.49034375,"end":7998.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":7998.932843750001,"end":8011.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8011.84221875,"end":8039.567843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8039.97284375,"end":8063.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8064.9647187499995,"end":8065.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8065.99409375,"end":8067.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8067.71534375,"end":8079.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8079.544718750001,"end":8085.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8086.64909375,"end":8089.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8088.48846875,"end":8090.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8090.41221875,"end":8108.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8094.124718750001,"end":8095.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8105.295968750001,"end":8106.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8108.249093750001,"end":8111.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8110.5272187499995,"end":8131.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8113.75034375,"end":8114.138468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8126.03534375,"end":8126.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8126.052218750001,"end":8128.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8129.64659375,"end":8133.122843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8131.874093750001,"end":8140.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":8140.98659375,"end":8164.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8146.859093750001,"end":8149.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8152.529093750001,"end":8153.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8160.86534375,"end":8164.679093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8164.965968750001,"end":8175.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8176.74471875,"end":8185.030343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8185.46909375,"end":8214.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8214.49409375,"end":8222.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8223.539093750001,"end":8228.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8229.445343750001,"end":8234.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8234.575343750003,"end":8236.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8236.65096875,"end":8262.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8263.06034375,"end":8271.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8271.649718749999,"end":8273.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8274.434093750002,"end":8275.446593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8276.121593750002,"end":8291.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8292.91221875,"end":8293.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8294.29596875,"end":8295.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8295.54471875,"end":8298.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8298.649718750003,"end":8349.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8349.96659375,"end":8358.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8360.46284375,"end":8363.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8363.719718750002,"end":8364.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8364.74909375,"end":8380.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8380.34159375,"end":8382.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8383.09221875,"end":8384.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8385.269093750001,"end":8387.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8388.222218750001,"end":8392.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8392.59284375,"end":8393.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8393.33534375,"end":8398.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8399.359718750002,"end":8409.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8410.750343750002,"end":8414.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8414.648468750001,"end":8420.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8420.976593750001,"end":8432.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8433.44721875,"end":8448.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8448.60096875,"end":8452.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8453.089718750001,"end":8463.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8463.805343750002,"end":8465.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8465.864093750002,"end":8474.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8475.449093750001,"end":8482.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8482.992218750001,"end":8506.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8506.785968750002,"end":8509.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8510.61659375,"end":8511.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8512.253468750001,"end":8513.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8513.50221875,"end":8514.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8515.25721875,"end":8527.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8527.57596875,"end":8535.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":8535.743468750003,"end":8554.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8554.829093750002,"end":8558.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8559.06471875,"end":8570.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8571.164093750001,"end":8573.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":8574.10034375,"end":8575.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8944.523468750001,"end":8945.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8945.97471875,"end":8946.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8946.09284375,"end":8946.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8948.97846875,"end":8949.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8958.15846875,"end":8958.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8958.90096875,"end":8960.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8963.81159375,"end":8963.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8963.86221875,"end":8975.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8975.94471875,"end":8976.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8976.04596875,"end":8978.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8978.30721875,"end":8979.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8979.859718750002,"end":8980.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8990.777843750002,"end":8991.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8992.094093750002,"end":8993.157218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8994.18659375,"end":8996.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8997.730343750001,"end":9001.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9002.489093750002,"end":9003.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9004.969718750002,"end":9008.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9009.35721875,"end":9012.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9012.715343750002,"end":9020.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9021.60846875,"end":9024.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9025.169093750003,"end":9026.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9026.468468750001,"end":9032.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9032.492843750002,"end":9033.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9033.79221875,"end":9036.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9037.437218750001,"end":9039.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9039.83346875,"end":9041.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9042.17909375,"end":9043.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9043.74846875,"end":9045.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9046.465343750002,"end":9049.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9049.60409375,"end":9051.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9051.629093750002,"end":9052.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9052.641593750002,"end":9056.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9056.97846875,"end":9059.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9060.235343750002,"end":9062.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9062.47971875,"end":9063.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9064.16721875,"end":9066.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9066.63096875,"end":9068.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9069.077843750001,"end":9070.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9071.42346875,"end":9072.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9073.95471875,"end":9077.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9077.54909375,"end":9077.987843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9078.274718750003,"end":9079.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9079.91159375,"end":9080.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9081.34596875,"end":9082.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9083.20221875,"end":9084.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9085.41284375,"end":9087.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9088.19721875,"end":9091.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9091.926593750002,"end":9093.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9094.086593750002,"end":9095.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9095.504093750002,"end":9096.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9096.80346875,"end":9098.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9099.16596875,"end":9099.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9100.53284375,"end":9102.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9102.69284375,"end":9104.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9105.274718750003,"end":9106.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9106.86096875,"end":9111.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9111.737843750001,"end":9113.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9113.88096875,"end":9116.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9116.648468750001,"end":9118.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9119.550968750002,"end":9121.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9122.79096875,"end":9125.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9126.53721875,"end":9129.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9131.262218750002,"end":9134.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9134.97471875,"end":9136.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9136.76346875,"end":9137.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9138.94034375,"end":9141.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9142.180343750002,"end":9143.125343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9143.277218750001,"end":9144.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9145.015343750001,"end":9146.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9147.563468750002,"end":9149.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9151.52909375,"end":9153.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9155.17409375,"end":9156.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9156.86159375,"end":9162.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9162.801593750002,"end":9164.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9165.737843750001,"end":9168.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9168.79221875,"end":9170.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9172.065968750001,"end":9173.702843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9174.63096875,"end":9176.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9176.976593750001,"end":9184.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9185.481593750003,"end":9187.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9188.24909375,"end":9189.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9189.734093750001,"end":9190.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9190.66221875,"end":9191.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9192.19784375,"end":9193.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9194.47596875,"end":9195.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9195.555968750003,"end":9196.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9196.956593750001,"end":9199.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9199.977218750002,"end":9200.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9200.078468750002,"end":9201.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9201.968468750001,"end":9204.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9204.70221875,"end":9207.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9207.73971875,"end":9208.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9209.157218750002,"end":9210.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9210.96284375,"end":9213.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9214.270343750002,"end":9216.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9216.97034375,"end":9217.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9218.168468750002,"end":9219.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9220.800968750002,"end":9221.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9222.08346875,"end":9224.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9225.20534375,"end":9226.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9227.04471875,"end":9229.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9229.930343750002,"end":9232.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9233.11971875,"end":9235.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9236.207843750002,"end":9236.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9237.55784375,"end":9238.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9239.481593750003,"end":9240.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9240.780968750001,"end":9241.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9242.35034375,"end":9243.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9245.792843750001,"end":9246.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9247.36221875,"end":9248.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9249.31971875,"end":9250.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9250.93971875,"end":9252.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9252.863468750002,"end":9254.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9254.56784375,"end":9258.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9258.70221875,"end":9259.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9260.457218750002,"end":9262.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9262.785968750002,"end":9263.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9264.22034375,"end":9265.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9265.53659375,"end":9267.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9268.40534375,"end":9270.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9270.86909375,"end":9274.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9275.93159375,"end":9277.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9278.85096875,"end":9282.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9283.22159375,"end":9283.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9284.031593750002,"end":9287.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9287.84534375,"end":9288.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9289.39784375,"end":9290.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9291.152843750002,"end":9291.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9292.53659375,"end":9294.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9294.831593750001,"end":9296.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9297.430343750002,"end":9301.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9302.391593750002,"end":9304.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9304.652843750002,"end":9304.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9304.72034375,"end":9306.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9307.20096875,"end":9311.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9312.415343750003,"end":9313.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9314.49096875,"end":9317.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9318.372218750003,"end":9325.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9326.10096875,"end":9327.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9328.480343750001,"end":9329.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9329.88096875,"end":9330.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9331.09596875,"end":9332.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9332.547218750002,"end":9334.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9334.757843750001,"end":9335.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9337.84596875,"end":9339.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9340.00596875,"end":9340.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9340.64721875,"end":9342.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9343.07721875,"end":9344.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9344.477843750003,"end":9346.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9347.312843750002,"end":9353.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9353.742218750001,"end":9356.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9357.35346875,"end":9358.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9358.956593750001,"end":9359.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9359.969093750002,"end":9361.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9362.280968750001,"end":9363.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9363.917843750001,"end":9365.250968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9367.613468750002,"end":9368.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9369.621593750002,"end":9370.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9371.477843750003,"end":9372.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9373.199093750001,"end":9373.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9373.789718750002,"end":9374.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9375.03846875,"end":9377.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9377.890343750001,"end":9378.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9378.700343750003,"end":9380.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9381.07971875,"end":9384.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9385.26471875,"end":9388.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9388.79159375,"end":9392.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9392.622218750003,"end":9394.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9395.17034375,"end":9395.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9396.250343750002,"end":9397.414718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9398.140343750001,"end":9399.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9400.266593750002,"end":9401.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9402.527843750002,"end":9404.316593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9404.519093750001,"end":9406.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9407.067218750002,"end":9409.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9409.68284375,"end":9410.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9411.184718750003,"end":9411.640343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9411.977843750003,"end":9412.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9412.922843750002,"end":9414.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9414.94784375,"end":9416.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9416.95596875,"end":9419.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9421.07346875,"end":9422.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9423.503468750001,"end":9424.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9425.69721875,"end":9426.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9427.519718750002,"end":9428.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9429.004718750002,"end":9430.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9431.384093750003,"end":9434.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9434.742218750001,"end":9438.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9439.180343750002,"end":9441.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9441.660968750002,"end":9445.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9445.761593750001,"end":9447.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9447.719093750002,"end":9449.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9450.13221875,"end":9452.359718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9453.43971875,"end":9454.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9455.481593750003,"end":9456.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9456.848468750002,"end":9459.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9460.054718750001,"end":9461.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9461.82659375,"end":9464.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9465.25221875,"end":9466.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9466.872218750003,"end":9467.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9467.969093750002,"end":9468.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9468.762218750002,"end":9471.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9471.73221875,"end":9473.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9474.449093750001,"end":9475.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9475.96784375,"end":9477.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9478.262843750003,"end":9483.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9484.43909375,"end":9485.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9486.582218750002,"end":9489.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9490.446593750003,"end":9491.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9492.04971875,"end":9493.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9495.559718750003,"end":9497.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9497.972843750002,"end":9499.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9499.710968750001,"end":9501.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9502.259093750003,"end":9506.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9507.38909375,"end":9508.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9509.97096875,"end":9512.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9513.02534375,"end":9515.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9515.94471875,"end":9516.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9517.21034375,"end":9519.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9519.657218750002,"end":9520.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9521.53034375,"end":9524.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9525.715343750002,"end":9529.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9530.37284375,"end":9537.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9538.320968750002,"end":9540.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9541.08846875,"end":9542.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9543.04596875,"end":9545.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9545.425343750001,"end":9546.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9547.433468750001,"end":9554.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9555.465968750003,"end":9557.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9558.16596875,"end":9571.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9571.868468750003,"end":9572.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9573.336593750002,"end":9574.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9575.00721875,"end":9576.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9577.032218750002,"end":9578.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9578.09534375,"end":9578.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9579.42846875,"end":9583.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9583.59659375,"end":9584.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9585.85784375,"end":9586.667843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9587.17409375,"end":9588.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9589.45221875,"end":9594.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9595.08846875,"end":9595.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9596.57346875,"end":9597.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9597.754718750002,"end":9599.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9599.52659375,"end":9603.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9603.542843750001,"end":9604.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9605.14596875,"end":9606.715343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9607.12034375,"end":9610.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9610.461593750002,"end":9613.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9613.58346875,"end":9615.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9615.726593750001,"end":9621.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9621.86909375,"end":9623.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9623.590343750002,"end":9624.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9625.446593750003,"end":9627.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9627.809093750002,"end":9630.492218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9631.757843750001,"end":9632.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9632.702843750001,"end":9633.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9634.289093750001,"end":9636.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9636.31409375,"end":9637.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9637.69784375,"end":9640.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9641.12346875,"end":9643.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9643.587218750003,"end":9646.000343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9649.527218750001,"end":9654.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9669.996593750002,"end":9672.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9672.527843750002,"end":9673.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9674.13096875,"end":9675.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9678.40034375,"end":9678.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9678.82221875,"end":9680.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9681.31971875,"end":9683.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9683.83409375,"end":9685.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9686.56784375,"end":9688.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9689.06534375,"end":9691.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9691.782218750002,"end":9692.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9693.73971875,"end":9695.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9695.207843750002,"end":9695.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9696.50721875,"end":9697.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9698.262218750002,"end":9699.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9699.88221875,"end":9702.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9703.949093750001,"end":9705.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9706.26096875,"end":9707.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9708.117218750001,"end":9709.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9709.652843750002,"end":9710.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9711.137843750003,"end":9711.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9713.26409375,"end":9715.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9716.200343750003,"end":9717.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9717.80346875,"end":9718.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9719.11971875,"end":9720.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9720.722843750002,"end":9721.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9722.79846875,"end":9723.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9724.148468750001,"end":9724.739093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9725.34659375,"end":9726.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9727.574093750001,"end":9728.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9728.519093750001,"end":9730.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9731.910968750002,"end":9734.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9735.42096875,"end":9736.500968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9737.20971875,"end":9738.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9739.065968750001,"end":9739.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9740.179718750001,"end":9740.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9741.546593750001,"end":9742.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9743.132843750001,"end":9744.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9745.714718750001,"end":9747.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9748.296593750001,"end":9750.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9751.13159375,"end":9751.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9752.38034375,"end":9753.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9754.962218750003,"end":9758.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9758.97846875,"end":9762.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9762.92721875,"end":9765.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9766.234718750002,"end":9768.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9769.390343750001,"end":9771.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9772.49534375,"end":9773.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9773.676593750002,"end":9774.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9775.515968750002,"end":9776.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9776.96721875,"end":9778.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9779.363468750002,"end":9780.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9780.578468750002,"end":9781.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9782.434718750003,"end":9785.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9785.40471875,"end":9787.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9788.57721875,"end":9790.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9791.05784375,"end":9792.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9793.57221875,"end":9794.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9795.22596875,"end":9796.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9796.289093750001,"end":9798.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9798.972218750001,"end":9800.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9800.828468750002,"end":9805.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9805.789718750002,"end":9807.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9808.65846875,"end":9809.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9809.940968750001,"end":9811.274093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9811.51034375,"end":9812.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9814.379093750002,"end":9815.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9817.112843750001,"end":9817.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9819.070343750001,"end":9822.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9823.17096875,"end":9824.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9825.63471875,"end":9827.187218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9828.26721875,"end":9830.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9831.43971875,"end":9832.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9832.739093750002,"end":9834.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9835.28721875,"end":9836.485343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9837.008468750002,"end":9838.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9838.98284375,"end":9840.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9841.24409375,"end":9842.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9842.965343750002,"end":9844.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9845.26034375,"end":9847.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9847.926593750002,"end":9849.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9851.01471875,"end":9852.195968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9853.44471875,"end":9854.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9855.452843750001,"end":9856.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9859.23284375,"end":9860.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9862.06784375,"end":9864.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9865.105343750001,"end":9871.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9871.551593750002,"end":9873.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9873.52596875,"end":9875.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9875.95596875,"end":9877.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9878.132843750001,"end":9880.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9881.457218750002,"end":9882.824093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9883.95471875,"end":9886.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9886.620968750001,"end":9887.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9887.852843750003,"end":9891.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9892.29096875,"end":9898.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9898.804718750001,"end":9901.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9901.909718750001,"end":9902.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9902.63534375,"end":9903.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9904.019093750001,"end":9908.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9908.625968750002,"end":9911.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9912.06846875,"end":9916.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9917.417843750001,"end":9920.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9921.77159375,"end":9922.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9923.425343750001,"end":9924.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9924.437843750002,"end":9931.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9931.727843750003,"end":9934.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9934.91721875,"end":9935.879093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9936.63846875,"end":9939.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9939.64221875,"end":9942.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9943.540343750003,"end":9945.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9946.08846875,"end":9946.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9947.52284375,"end":9950.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9951.134093750003,"end":9954.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9954.812843750002,"end":9956.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9956.922218750002,"end":9958.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9959.706593750001,"end":9961.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9961.815968750001,"end":9974.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9974.60721875,"end":9975.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9975.99096875,"end":9985.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":9985.49159375,"end":9993.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":9993.81096875,"end":10000.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10000.81409375,"end":10010.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10012.20471875,"end":10018.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10018.75221875,"end":10021.620968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10022.835968750001,"end":10023.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10023.86534375,"end":10024.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10025.384093750003,"end":10028.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10029.231593750003,"end":10030.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10032.79221875,"end":10033.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10033.872218750003,"end":10034.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10035.340343750002,"end":10036.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10036.67346875,"end":10037.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10038.715343750002,"end":10040.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10041.36471875,"end":10043.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10043.71034375,"end":10045.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10046.410343750002,"end":10047.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10048.45221875,"end":10049.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10049.65034375,"end":10050.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10051.23659375,"end":10051.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10052.28284375,"end":10055.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10056.19784375,"end":10062.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10062.32346875,"end":10063.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10063.31909375,"end":10064.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10065.79971875,"end":10066.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10067.38596875,"end":10071.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10072.02659375,"end":10075.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10076.02596875,"end":10078.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10079.046593750001,"end":10079.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10080.19409375,"end":10080.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10082.016593750002,"end":10083.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10083.535343750002,"end":10087.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10087.956593750001,"end":10089.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10089.762218750002,"end":10091.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10092.175343750001,"end":10095.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10095.938468750002,"end":10096.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10097.035343750002,"end":10100.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10100.96721875,"end":10101.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10101.08534375,"end":10101.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":10101.22034375,"end":10101.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10101.23721875,"end":10102.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10105.962218750003,"end":10109.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10109.72534375,"end":10111.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10111.649093750002,"end":10114.062218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10119.69846875,"end":10119.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10125.030968750001,"end":10128.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10128.945968750002,"end":10129.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10132.13534375,"end":10132.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10132.320968750002,"end":10132.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10133.23221875,"end":10134.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10134.71721875,"end":10136.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10136.809718750003,"end":10145.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10146.293468750002,"end":10155.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10155.76034375,"end":10170.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10170.340343750002,"end":10199.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10201.727843750003,"end":10217.894093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10216.915343750003,"end":10219.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10218.265343750001,"end":10221.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10221.25221875,"end":10222.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10222.956593750001,"end":10236.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10237.23284375,"end":10241.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10243.071593750003,"end":10249.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10248.606593750003,"end":10262.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10262.74784375,"end":10267.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10267.692218750002,"end":10274.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10274.644718750002,"end":10276.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10274.66159375,"end":10275.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10276.61909375,"end":10278.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10278.964718750001,"end":10280.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10281.242843750002,"end":10284.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10282.74471875,"end":10293.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10294.18596875,"end":10301.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10301.62784375,"end":10309.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10309.930343750002,"end":10312.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10312.309718750003,"end":10316.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10316.511593750001,"end":10319.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10319.363468750002,"end":10322.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10322.215343750002,"end":10324.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10326.535343750002,"end":10326.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10327.429718750001,"end":10327.902218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10328.965343750002,"end":10330.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10337.38596875,"end":10338.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10339.039718750002,"end":10344.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10344.794093750003,"end":10368.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10369.00971875,"end":10388.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10388.196593750003,"end":10398.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10398.996593750002,"end":10399.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10399.941593750002,"end":10403.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10404.07596875,"end":10412.699093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10413.644093750001,"end":10418.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10419.48284375,"end":10422.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10423.17846875,"end":10423.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10423.364093750002,"end":10426.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10424.54534375,"end":10428.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10428.899093750002,"end":10434.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10434.41721875,"end":10437.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10434.87284375,"end":10436.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10436.492843750002,"end":10439.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10437.37034375,"end":10445.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10439.969093750002,"end":10442.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10443.985343750002,"end":10444.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10444.89659375,"end":10444.930343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10444.930343750002,"end":10444.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":10444.96409375,"end":10445.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10446.077843750001,"end":10450.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10446.246593750002,"end":10448.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10448.035343750002,"end":10448.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10448.91284375,"end":10448.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10448.946593750003,"end":10448.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10450.094093750002,"end":10450.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10450.12784375,"end":10450.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10450.95471875,"end":10451.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10451.039093750001,"end":10456.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10451.055968750003,"end":10451.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10451.96721875,"end":10452.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10454.71784375,"end":10460.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10460.590343750002,"end":10465.534718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10464.92721875,"end":10469.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10469.09534375,"end":10469.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10469.129093750002,"end":10469.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":10469.26409375,"end":10469.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10469.331593750001,"end":10479.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10471.812218750001,"end":10472.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10479.405968750001,"end":10481.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10482.527843750002,"end":10482.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10484.316593750002,"end":10490.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10491.809093750002,"end":10501.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10501.765343750001,"end":10502.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10502.64284375,"end":10502.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10503.55409375,"end":10505.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10505.59596875,"end":10505.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10506.16971875,"end":10506.777218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10507.43534375,"end":10508.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10508.937218750001,"end":10514.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10515.40034375,"end":10517.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10521.070343750001,"end":10522.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10523.449718750002,"end":10532.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10533.473468750002,"end":10534.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10535.211593750002,"end":10541.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10541.961593750002,"end":10541.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10541.97846875,"end":10546.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10546.973468750002,"end":10570.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10570.71659375,"end":10571.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10572.04971875,"end":10574.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10575.441593750002,"end":10587.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10587.65909375,"end":10597.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":10597.68284375,"end":10609.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10610.524718750003,"end":10621.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10622.489093750002,"end":10624.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10624.969718750002,"end":10625.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10625.847218750001,"end":10640.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10640.460968750001,"end":10660.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10660.12034375,"end":10665.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10665.18284375,"end":10668.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10668.50721875,"end":10681.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10681.602218750002,"end":10691.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10692.452843750001,"end":10696.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10703.72534375,"end":10706.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10707.184718750003,"end":10708.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10712.702843750001,"end":10713.394718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10713.394718750002,"end":10713.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10713.42846875,"end":10713.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10713.47909375,"end":10713.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10714.20471875,"end":10729.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10729.45971875,"end":10756.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10757.08409375,"end":10770.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10771.394093750001,"end":10783.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10784.65784375,"end":10818.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10819.015343750001,"end":10821.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10821.25971875,"end":10824.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10821.293468750002,"end":10850.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10851.11159375,"end":10852.394093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10852.22534375,"end":10856.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10857.43971875,"end":10865.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10866.636593750001,"end":10899.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10899.610343750002,"end":10900.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10901.196593750003,"end":10903.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10903.54221875,"end":10927.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10927.62284375,"end":10943.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10944.19409375,"end":10949.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10949.77971875,"end":10952.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10952.749718750001,"end":10961.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10962.621593750002,"end":10964.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10964.44409375,"end":10968.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10968.96659375,"end":10971.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10971.51471875,"end":10971.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10971.902843750002,"end":10985.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10984.32284375,"end":11046.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":10985.250968750002,"end":10985.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11047.97534375,"end":11049.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11050.28721875,"end":11051.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11051.45159375,"end":11052.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11055.164093750001,"end":11074.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11075.042843750001,"end":11075.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11076.44346875,"end":11077.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11077.45596875,"end":11079.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11080.25721875,"end":11080.898468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11081.337218750003,"end":11094.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11085.269093750001,"end":11086.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11088.15471875,"end":11089.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11091.42846875,"end":11091.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11092.778468750003,"end":11097.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":11098.53284375,"end":11107.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11107.83096875,"end":11110.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11110.68284375,"end":11113.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11114.226593750001,"end":11129.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11130.409718750001,"end":11133.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11134.39221875,"end":11150.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11150.355968750002,"end":11151.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11152.22909375,"end":11157.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11157.96659375,"end":11161.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11161.527218750001,"end":11186.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11186.28284375,"end":11204.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11206.02659375,"end":11241.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11242.476593750001,"end":11248.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11250.222218750001,"end":11250.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11251.04909375,"end":11254.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11255.31846875,"end":11258.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11259.250343750002,"end":11270.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11271.282218750002,"end":11276.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11277.10409375,"end":11307.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11307.765968750002,"end":11327.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11327.88096875,"end":11329.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11329.68659375,"end":11339.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11340.503468750001,"end":11340.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11342.005343750003,"end":11347.253468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11359.67346875,"end":11439.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11439.35721875,"end":11492.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11493.25596875,"end":11628.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11628.67784375,"end":11702.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11704.176593750002,"end":11711.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11782.442843750003,"end":11782.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11783.910968750002,"end":11786.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11793.85034375,"end":11798.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":11798.32221875,"end":11808.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11809.81409375,"end":11820.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11821.305968750003,"end":11842.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11842.804718750001,"end":11863.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11864.15159375,"end":11866.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11866.31159375,"end":11868.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11868.62346875,"end":11877.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11877.43221875,"end":11881.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11882.07284375,"end":11885.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11886.02159375,"end":11888.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11888.97471875,"end":11889.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11889.14346875,"end":11892.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11893.76721875,"end":11903.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11903.53784375,"end":11905.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11905.90034375,"end":11905.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11906.136593750001,"end":11914.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11914.92846875,"end":11922.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11923.973468750002,"end":11935.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11935.49909375,"end":11937.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11938.418468750002,"end":11953.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11953.555343750002,"end":11956.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11956.677218750003,"end":11964.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11964.625343750002,"end":11970.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11970.41346875,"end":11971.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11971.864718750003,"end":11973.636593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11973.974093750003,"end":11981.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11981.922218750002,"end":11989.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11989.583468750003,"end":12045.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12046.249718750001,"end":12054.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12054.552218750003,"end":12057.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12057.134093750003,"end":12060.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12060.289718750002,"end":12068.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12068.81159375,"end":12095.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12096.570968750002,"end":12099.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12101.24534375,"end":12101.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12105.76784375,"end":12107.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12106.34159375,"end":12107.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12107.20221875,"end":12107.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12107.742218750001,"end":12108.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12109.73346875,"end":12112.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12113.327843750001,"end":12115.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12115.724093750003,"end":12116.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12116.48346875,"end":12120.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12120.68534375,"end":12121.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12120.989093750002,"end":12128.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12128.835968750001,"end":12131.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12132.24471875,"end":12134.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12136.598468750002,"end":12137.324093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12137.56034375,"end":12139.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12139.855343750001,"end":12142.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12140.547218750002,"end":12141.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12144.917843750001,"end":12145.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12145.00221875,"end":12146.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12146.622218750003,"end":12152.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12150.250343750002,"end":12151.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12152.71409375,"end":12156.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12157.320968750002,"end":12162.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12163.21034375,"end":12165.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12167.93534375,"end":12168.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12171.69846875,"end":12172.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12173.01471875,"end":12174.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12174.027218750001,"end":12178.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12178.195343750001,"end":12181.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12182.430968750003,"end":12183.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12183.02159375,"end":12183.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12183.34221875,"end":12183.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12183.409718750001,"end":12183.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12185.13096875,"end":12187.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12187.56096875,"end":12191.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12192.04971875,"end":12195.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12195.20534375,"end":12196.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12195.30659375,"end":12199.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12199.20471875,"end":12201.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12203.355968750002,"end":12207.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12207.96284375,"end":12214.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12214.949093750001,"end":12225.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12225.884093750003,"end":12226.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12226.57596875,"end":12229.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12230.06909375,"end":12234.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12234.304718750001,"end":12236.481593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12236.49846875,"end":12242.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12242.52284375,"end":12246.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12247.079093750002,"end":12251.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12251.922218750002,"end":12251.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12251.972843750002,"end":12255.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12256.208468750003,"end":12257.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12257.44034375,"end":12263.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12264.308468750001,"end":12264.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12265.101593750001,"end":12274.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12274.973468750002,"end":12278.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12280.508468750002,"end":12281.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12283.343468750001,"end":12283.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12284.32221875,"end":12285.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12286.48221875,"end":12288.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12288.86159375,"end":12292.692218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12292.92846875,"end":12294.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12295.054718750001,"end":12310.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12310.17471875,"end":12311.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12312.26721875,"end":12312.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12313.347218750001,"end":12314.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12314.680343750002,"end":12315.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12317.59971875,"end":12317.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12317.633468750002,"end":12317.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12317.65034375,"end":12317.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12317.97096875,"end":12319.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12320.45159375,"end":12322.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12322.965968750003,"end":12326.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12326.847218750001,"end":12328.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12329.20971875,"end":12334.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12334.710968750001,"end":12336.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12337.10721875,"end":12338.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12339.351593750001,"end":12340.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12341.460968750001,"end":12342.726593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12342.794093750003,"end":12346.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12346.945343750001,"end":12351.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12351.552218750003,"end":12359.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12359.90534375,"end":12360.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12360.833468750003,"end":12362.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12364.27596875,"end":12367.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12368.511593750001,"end":12368.984093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12369.97971875,"end":12371.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12373.97909375,"end":12375.261593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12375.44721875,"end":12378.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12380.03721875,"end":12380.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12381.20159375,"end":12388.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12389.01471875,"end":12389.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12390.95534375,"end":12392.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12393.63846875,"end":12394.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12395.258468750002,"end":12396.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12397.300343750001,"end":12402.750968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12402.97034375,"end":12406.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12406.817843750003,"end":12407.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12408.707843750002,"end":12409.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12410.344718750002,"end":12411.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12412.234718750002,"end":12414.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12415.22159375,"end":12415.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12416.352218750002,"end":12418.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12419.777843750002,"end":12422.849093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12421.684718750003,"end":12428.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12430.40909375,"end":12433.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12434.391593750002,"end":12442.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12442.440968750001,"end":12444.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12445.95096875,"end":12446.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12446.879093750002,"end":12454.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12454.675343750001,"end":12456.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12457.30784375,"end":12458.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12459.062843750002,"end":12459.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12459.92346875,"end":12460.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12461.745968750001,"end":12464.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12464.88471875,"end":12467.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12467.04471875,"end":12470.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12471.43221875,"end":12471.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12473.06909375,"end":12475.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12476.02221875,"end":12483.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12483.51471875,"end":12485.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12485.269718750002,"end":12486.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12486.585968750001,"end":12487.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12487.530968750001,"end":12487.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12487.71659375,"end":12493.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12492.10409375,"end":12498.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12498.63471875,"end":12500.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12501.047843750002,"end":12504.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12504.270968750003,"end":12506.532218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12506.835968750001,"end":12510.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12511.40909375,"end":12512.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12512.742218750001,"end":12514.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12515.18909375,"end":12518.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12519.239093750002,"end":12521.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12521.702843750001,"end":12526.630343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12527.102843750003,"end":12529.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12529.97159375,"end":12532.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12532.43534375,"end":12534.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12535.000343750002,"end":12537.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12537.312218750001,"end":12538.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12538.949093750001,"end":12540.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12541.429718750001,"end":12542.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12542.93159375,"end":12544.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12544.66971875,"end":12547.133468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12547.36971875,"end":12549.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12549.78284375,"end":12552.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12553.17471875,"end":12555.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12555.840968750003,"end":12558.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12558.422843750002,"end":12559.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12560.009093750003,"end":12563.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12563.333468750003,"end":12565.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12565.76346875,"end":12569.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12569.45909375,"end":12570.589718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12570.859718750002,"end":12572.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12574.89284375,"end":12576.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":12576.74909375,"end":12578.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12581.37284375,"end":12584.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12585.051593750002,"end":12601.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12602.11221875,"end":12605.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19481.982218750003,"end":19484.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19484.715968750003,"end":19491.280343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19491.499718749998,"end":19494.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":19494.537218750003,"end":19496.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19497.42284375,"end":19501.270343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19501.65846875,"end":19503.514718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19503.76784375,"end":19509.404093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19510.365968750004,"end":19522.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19522.262843750003,"end":19524.709718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19524.929093749997,"end":19526.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19526.295968750004,"end":19528.287218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19528.624718749998,"end":19531.780343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19532.15159375,"end":19537.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19539.22221875,"end":19540.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19540.47096875,"end":19543.896593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19544.132843749998,"end":19548.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19548.672218749998,"end":19549.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19550.07284375,"end":19551.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19551.74346875,"end":19558.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19558.476593749998,"end":19564.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19564.92284375,"end":19566.593468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19566.998468750004,"end":19573.124093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19573.748468750004,"end":19576.718468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19576.802843750003,"end":19578.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19579.38471875,"end":19586.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19587.60284375,"end":19588.328468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19588.56471875,"end":19592.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19592.614718750003,"end":19597.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19598.04846875,"end":19598.740343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19599.19596875,"end":19603.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19604.61284375,"end":19609.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19609.21971875,"end":19610.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19612.18971875,"end":19613.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19613.99534375,"end":19622.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19622.83784375,"end":19623.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19624.30596875,"end":19628.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19628.76096875,"end":19630.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19630.31346875,"end":19632.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19633.38471875,"end":19642.294718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19642.733468750004,"end":19645.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19646.850968749997,"end":19649.382218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19649.685968750004,"end":19651.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19651.997843750003,"end":19653.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19654.46159375,"end":19657.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19657.95471875,"end":19661.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19661.717843750004,"end":19665.953468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19666.375343749998,"end":19670.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19672.905968749998,"end":19675.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19675.47096875,"end":19680.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19681.444718749997,"end":19685.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19685.29221875,"end":19689.764093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19690.202843749998,"end":19694.421593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19694.87721875,"end":19698.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19698.58971875,"end":19702.319093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19702.45409375,"end":19706.740343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19708.17471875,"end":19713.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19713.76034375,"end":19716.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19718.06346875,"end":19720.898468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19722.771593750003,"end":19730.365343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19732.33971875,"end":19732.710968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19732.913468749997,"end":19736.288468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19736.94659375,"end":19740.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19740.96284375,"end":19742.312843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19742.54909375,"end":19745.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19745.755343750003,"end":19748.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19748.87721875,"end":19750.733468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19751.897843749997,"end":19754.007218749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19754.04096875,"end":19758.006593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19758.411593750003,"end":19761.685343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19762.124093750004,"end":19766.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19767.270968750003,"end":19768.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19769.12721875,"end":19770.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19771.47284375,"end":19779.724718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19781.547218749998,"end":19789.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19789.57971875,"end":19792.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19792.279718750004,"end":19793.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19794.287843750004,"end":19799.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19799.60346875,"end":19806.522218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19806.97784375,"end":19808.226593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19808.496593750002,"end":19809.070343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19809.50909375,"end":19814.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19814.89221875,"end":19819.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19820.309093750002,"end":19822.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19822.772843749997,"end":19828.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19829.421593749998,"end":19832.273468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19832.49284375,"end":19834.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19835.59784375,"end":19836.779093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19837.082843750002,"end":19839.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19840.22159375,"end":19843.124093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19843.529093750003,"end":19849.232843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19849.50284375,"end":19852.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19852.43909375,"end":19853.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19854.801593750002,"end":19857.164093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19857.31596875,"end":19864.740968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19864.90971875,"end":19866.732218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19867.01909375,"end":19872.975968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19874.123468750004,"end":19875.912218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19877.02596875,"end":19879.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19879.388468750003,"end":19883.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19883.742218749998,"end":19884.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19885.429718749998,"end":19889.732843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19889.90159375,"end":19893.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19893.91784375,"end":19896.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19897.27596875,"end":19902.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19903.131593750004,"end":19909.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19909.51034375,"end":19913.054093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19913.560343750003,"end":19919.061593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19919.500343749998,"end":19922.740343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19924.140968749998,"end":19928.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19928.984093749998,"end":19936.054718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19936.459718750004,"end":19939.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19940.374718749998,"end":19941.724718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19942.163468749997,"end":19943.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19943.78346875,"end":19946.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19946.584718750004,"end":19950.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19951.410968750002,"end":19962.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19964.084093750003,"end":19966.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19967.239718750003,"end":19972.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19973.264093750004,"end":19977.077843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19977.567218750002,"end":19982.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19984.671593749998,"end":19986.122843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19986.49409375,"end":19988.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19988.41784375,"end":19995.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19995.420968750004,"end":19997.648468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19998.492218749998,"end":20000.483468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20000.65221875,"end":20000.922218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20001.47909375,"end":20002.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20003.335343749997,"end":20004.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20005.19159375,"end":20006.811593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20007.04784375,"end":20008.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20008.83659375,"end":20011.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20012.093468749998,"end":20013.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20013.645968750003,"end":20016.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20016.58221875,"end":20017.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20017.965968750003,"end":20021.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20022.13409375,"end":20024.091593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20025.492218749998,"end":20028.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":20029.187843749998,"end":20030.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20030.031593749998,"end":20030.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20032.140968749998,"end":20036.022218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20036.528468750003,"end":20039.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20039.53221875,"end":20043.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20043.497843750003,"end":20049.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20050.264718750004,"end":20050.686593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20051.412218750003,"end":20056.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20057.858468750004,"end":20063.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20064.11909375,"end":20066.194718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20066.582843750002,"end":20069.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20069.637218750002,"end":20072.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20072.742218749998,"end":20077.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20077.770968750003,"end":20078.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20079.28971875,"end":20081.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20081.71971875,"end":20087.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20088.80721875,"end":20091.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20091.996593750002,"end":20097.092843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20097.396593750003,"end":20098.476593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20099.03346875,"end":20099.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20099.86034375,"end":20102.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20103.302843750003,"end":20111.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20112.31409375,"end":20115.250343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20115.621593750002,"end":20118.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20119.60409375,"end":20122.607843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20122.928468750004,"end":20124.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20124.379718750002,"end":20126.944718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20127.349718750003,"end":20129.172218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20129.880968750003,"end":20134.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20134.38659375,"end":20136.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20136.968468749998,"end":20138.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20139.21284375,"end":20148.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20148.527843750002,"end":20151.312218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20151.953468749998,"end":20156.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20157.04971875,"end":20159.530343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20159.935343750003,"end":20163.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20163.546593749998,"end":20167.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20167.81596875,"end":20169.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20169.452843749998,"end":20175.021593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20176.945343749998,"end":20180.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20181.585968749998,"end":20184.201593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20184.859718749998,"end":20188.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20189.23034375,"end":20191.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20192.04846875,"end":20198.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20199.10221875,"end":20201.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20202.426593750002,"end":20210.560343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20210.74596875,"end":20211.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20213.496593750002,"end":20216.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20216.75346875,"end":20218.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20219.16659375,"end":20223.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20224.296593749998,"end":20226.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20227.70534375,"end":20231.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20231.569718749997,"end":20233.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20235.130343750003,"end":20237.273468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20237.74596875,"end":20239.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20240.05784375,"end":20241.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20242.082843750002,"end":20246.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20247.12846875,"end":20249.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20250.115343750003,"end":20253.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20253.709718750004,"end":20255.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20257.32096875,"end":20259.615968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20259.835343749997,"end":20265.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20265.859718749998,"end":20267.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20268.154718750004,"end":20269.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20269.47096875,"end":20271.344093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20271.715343750002,"end":20273.639093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20274.499718749998,"end":20279.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20279.730968750002,"end":20285.789093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20286.54846875,"end":20289.248468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20289.569093750004,"end":20291.897843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20292.387218750002,"end":20295.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20295.559718750003,"end":20302.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20302.88346875,"end":20309.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20309.920343750004,"end":20315.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20315.843468749998,"end":20318.796593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20319.57284375,"end":20321.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20322.053468750004,"end":20328.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20329.107218750003,"end":20332.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20333.022218750004,"end":20334.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20334.709718750004,"end":20335.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20335.78971875,"end":20338.422218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20338.97909375,"end":20341.982843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20342.75909375,"end":20349.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20349.458468750003,"end":20352.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20353.170968750004,"end":20356.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20356.49534375,"end":20365.928468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20366.94096875,"end":20368.037843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20368.476593749998,"end":20370.754718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20371.530968749998,"end":20375.834093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20376.20534375,"end":20380.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20381.35221875,"end":20387.241593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20388.068468750003,"end":20390.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20390.734718749998,"end":20396.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20397.130343750003,"end":20409.685343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20410.05659375,"end":20411.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20412.030968749998,"end":20413.802843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20416.047218749998,"end":20428.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20429.44596875,"end":20431.622843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20432.179718749998,"end":20434.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20434.289093749998,"end":20437.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20437.242218749998,"end":20438.828468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20439.419093750003,"end":20441.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20442.574718750002,"end":20443.992218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20444.920343750004,"end":20447.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20447.856593750003,"end":20454.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20454.87659375,"end":20456.834093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20457.070343749998,"end":20461.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20461.373468750004,"end":20469.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20470.08096875,"end":20478.366593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20478.788468749997,"end":20486.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20486.500343749998,"end":20488.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20488.896593750003,"end":20491.967843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20492.069093750004,"end":20494.802843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20495.039093749998,"end":20498.684093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20498.85284375,"end":20501.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20501.670968750004,"end":20507.594093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20508.319718749997,"end":20510.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20511.28971875,"end":20515.154093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20515.33971875,"end":20517.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20517.43221875,"end":20523.304718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20523.490343750003,"end":20526.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20527.371593750002,"end":20533.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20533.834718750004,"end":20534.678468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20535.083468750003,"end":20535.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20535.707843750002,"end":20536.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20536.669718750003,"end":20540.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20541.833468750003,"end":20544.482843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20545.005968750003,"end":20546.895968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20547.28409375,"end":20549.764718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20551.06409375,"end":20554.185968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20554.709093750003,"end":20562.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20563.062218749998,"end":20569.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20569.20471875,"end":20571.179093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20571.31409375,"end":20579.397218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20580.004718750002,"end":20582.265968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20583.177218750003,"end":20586.484718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20586.70409375,"end":20591.969093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20592.914093749998,"end":20595.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20595.209093750003,"end":20599.022843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20599.410968750002,"end":20600.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20601.58784375,"end":20607.139718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20607.17346875,"end":20608.844093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20608.928468750004,"end":20611.324718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20611.83096875,"end":20618.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20618.66534375,"end":20620.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20621.888468750003,"end":20630.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20631.25409375,"end":20633.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20633.65034375,"end":20636.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20637.14346875,"end":20643.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20645.15909375,"end":20647.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20647.99409375,"end":20650.710968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20650.82909375,"end":20657.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20658.01784375,"end":20662.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20663.19846875,"end":20665.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20666.067218750002,"end":20670.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20671.11284375,"end":20674.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20674.521593750003,"end":20682.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20682.46971875,"end":20691.109718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20691.24471875,"end":20697.522218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20697.89346875,"end":20702.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20702.63534375,"end":20705.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20705.824718750002,"end":20706.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20708.22096875,"end":20712.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20712.810968750004,"end":20718.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20718.88596875,"end":20723.897843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20724.91034375,"end":20728.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20728.38659375,"end":20729.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20730.24284375,"end":20732.436593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20732.824718750002,"end":20736.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20737.161593750003,"end":20739.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20739.52409375,"end":20746.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20746.797218749998,"end":20748.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20748.40034375,"end":20756.584718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20757.732218750003,"end":20759.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20759.824718750002,"end":20764.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20764.53284375,"end":20771.130968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20771.48534375,"end":20773.375343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20773.83096875,"end":20786.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20786.57159375,"end":20788.529093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20789.052218750003,"end":20792.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20792.81534375,"end":20797.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20798.51909375,"end":20800.560968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20800.898468749998,"end":20804.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20806.50096875,"end":20810.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20810.85471875,"end":20811.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20812.40721875,"end":20818.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20818.397843749997,"end":20824.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20824.405343750004,"end":20827.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20828.202218750004,"end":20831.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20831.91471875,"end":20832.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20833.07909375,"end":20837.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20837.601593749998,"end":20840.639093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20841.246593750002,"end":20844.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20844.621593750002,"end":20846.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20846.865968750004,"end":20850.021593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20850.122843750003,"end":20852.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20852.755343750003,"end":20857.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20857.935968750004,"end":20864.365343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20864.65221875,"end":20867.841593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20868.21284375,"end":20868.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20870.575343750003,"end":20872.937843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20874.11909375,"end":20882.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20883.38346875,"end":20885.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20885.50971875,"end":20896.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20897.288468749997,"end":20905.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20905.709093750003,"end":20907.075968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20907.818468750003,"end":20909.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20909.404718750004,"end":20915.648468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20916.00284375,"end":20918.567843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20919.529718750004,"end":20920.997843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20921.28471875,"end":20924.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20924.44034375,"end":20925.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20925.89159375,"end":20937.045968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20938.615343750003,"end":20939.880968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20940.201593750004,"end":20942.091593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20942.24346875,"end":20952.030968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20952.115343750003,"end":20964.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20964.332843750002,"end":20968.045343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20968.60221875,"end":20969.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20970.18846875,"end":20976.398468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20976.685343750003,"end":20978.187218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20978.609093749998,"end":20985.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20986.65846875,"end":20988.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20988.919718750003,"end":20993.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20993.340968750003,"end":20995.568468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20995.85534375,"end":20997.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20997.30659375,"end":21000.209093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21000.69846875,"end":21009.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21010.16534375,"end":21011.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21011.65034375,"end":21017.084093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21017.607218750003,"end":21023.631593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21024.00284375,"end":21033.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21033.739718750003,"end":21035.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21036.00096875,"end":21038.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21038.56596875,"end":21044.202218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21044.89409375,"end":21046.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21047.155343750004,"end":21048.741593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21050.007218749997,"end":21051.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21051.914093749998,"end":21064.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21066.07221875,"end":21068.147843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21068.434718750003,"end":21072.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21072.63659375,"end":21077.530343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21077.78346875,"end":21081.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21082.54221875,"end":21084.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21085.124093750004,"end":21092.380343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21092.98784375,"end":21096.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21096.717218750004,"end":21102.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21102.69096875,"end":21104.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21104.817218750002,"end":21111.904718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21112.124093750004,"end":21119.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21119.97096875,"end":21120.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21121.35471875,"end":21124.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21125.26971875,"end":21127.716593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21127.90221875,"end":21133.116593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21133.437218749998,"end":21136.170968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21136.44096875,"end":21138.41534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21139.022843749997,"end":21141.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21142.077218750004,"end":21145.249718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21145.654718750004,"end":21148.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21149.012843750003,"end":21151.375343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21151.59471875,"end":21154.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21154.48034375,"end":21159.171593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21159.357218750003,"end":21166.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21167.98034375,"end":21169.819718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21171.22034375,"end":21173.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21174.848468750002,"end":21185.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21185.918468750002,"end":21187.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21188.179718749998,"end":21194.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21195.098468750002,"end":21199.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21200.194718749997,"end":21201.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21202.01721875,"end":21203.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21203.569718749997,"end":21204.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21205.645343750002,"end":21208.109093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21208.733468750004,"end":21212.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21214.403468750003,"end":21215.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21215.584718750004,"end":21221.406593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21221.929718749998,"end":21228.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21229.01721875,"end":21230.232218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21230.38409375,"end":21232.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21233.303468750004,"end":21238.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21238.905968749998,"end":21241.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21241.69034375,"end":21246.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21247.832843750002,"end":21257.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21257.92409375,"end":21262.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21263.442218750002,"end":21269.601593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21270.107843750004,"end":21271.373468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21271.66034375,"end":21275.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21276.317843750003,"end":21282.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21282.62909375,"end":21283.810343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21284.31659375,"end":21302.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21302.87909375,"end":21305.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21305.69721875,"end":21306.929093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21307.958468750003,"end":21311.350343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21311.80596875,"end":21316.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21317.695343749998,"end":21322.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21323.51721875,"end":21326.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21326.28471875,"end":21329.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21330.773468749998,"end":21343.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21344.20596875,"end":21346.686593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21346.872218750003,"end":21348.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21349.06596875,"end":21350.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21351.07409375,"end":21353.858468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21353.959718750004,"end":21358.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21359.325968750003,"end":21363.105968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21363.91596875,"end":21365.046593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21365.333468750003,"end":21367.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21368.084093750003,"end":21369.484718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21370.15971875,"end":21379.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21379.980968750002,"end":21387.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21388.418468750002,"end":21392.012843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21393.109718749998,"end":21394.662218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21394.93221875,"end":21403.217843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21403.656593749998,"end":21408.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":21409.140968749998,"end":21429.492218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21432.192218750002,"end":21452.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21452.49284375,"end":21453.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21453.842843750004,"end":21461.875343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21462.600968749997,"end":21463.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21464.811593750004,"end":21465.250343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21465.90846875,"end":21469.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21469.38471875,"end":21469.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21470.498468750004,"end":21470.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21473.29971875,"end":21476.202218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21476.47221875,"end":21478.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21478.328468749998,"end":21480.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21480.302843750003,"end":21492.975968749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21493.617218749998,"end":21495.186593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21495.33846875,"end":21498.662843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21498.780968749998,"end":21501.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21502.037843750004,"end":21505.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21505.817843750003,"end":21506.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21506.864093750002,"end":21507.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21508.484093749998,"end":21514.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21514.170968750004,"end":21519.452843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21519.82409375,"end":21521.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21521.528468750003,"end":21524.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21524.312843749998,"end":21525.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21527.130968750003,"end":21529.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21530.421593749998,"end":21531.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21532.15971875,"end":21535.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21536.125343749998,"end":21538.335968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21538.622843750003,"end":21539.466593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21540.107843750004,"end":21542.723468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21543.22971875,"end":21546.739718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21546.840968750003,"end":21547.819718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21547.920968750004,"end":21548.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21548.984093749998,"end":21549.726593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21549.87846875,"end":21550.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21551.160968750002,"end":21554.130968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21555.295343750004,"end":21556.240343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21556.39221875,"end":21557.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21557.624093750004,"end":21560.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21560.577218750004,"end":21561.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21561.960968749998,"end":21562.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21562.669718750003,"end":21563.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21564.559718750003,"end":21566.179718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21566.584718750004,"end":21569.453468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21570.65159375,"end":21571.022843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21571.15784375,"end":21572.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21572.828468749998,"end":21574.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21574.262843750003,"end":21576.810968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21577.16534375,"end":21580.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21580.945343749998,"end":21582.514718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21582.76784375,"end":21587.256593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21587.762843750003,"end":21601.819718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21602.140343749998,"end":21606.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21607.101593749998,"end":21611.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21611.522843749997,"end":21630.827843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21631.09784375,"end":21640.294718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21640.78409375,"end":21642.420968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21642.960968749998,"end":21645.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21645.880343750003,"end":21648.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21649.74471875,"end":21650.115968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21650.35221875,"end":21651.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21651.75284375,"end":21653.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21654.16596875,"end":21654.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21655.98846875,"end":21656.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21656.83221875,"end":21656.865968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":21656.865968750004,"end":21657.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":21658.08096875,"end":21661.709093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":21661.74284375,"end":21667.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":21668.020343750002,"end":21670.163468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21670.95659375,"end":21675.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21675.36096875,"end":21677.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21677.723468750002,"end":21682.499093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":21681.857843750004,"end":21682.515968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21682.515968749998,"end":21682.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":21682.53284375,"end":21682.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21682.684718750003,"end":21683.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":21683.207843750002,"end":21699.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21683.224718750003,"end":21683.460968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":21699.795968750004,"end":21699.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21699.82971875,"end":21701.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21702.91784375,"end":21706.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21706.934093750002,"end":21708.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21708.72284375,"end":21708.857843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21708.857843750004,"end":21708.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21708.90846875,"end":21709.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":21710.19096875,"end":21714.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":21715.084718750004,"end":21719.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":21719.26971875,"end":21720.906593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21721.328468749998,"end":21722.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":21723.015968749998,"end":21724.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21724.19721875,"end":21724.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":21724.21409375,"end":21724.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21725.46284375,"end":21729.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":21730.052843750003,"end":21733.647218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":21733.765343749998,"end":21752.513468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21752.513468750003,"end":21753.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":21753.255968750003,"end":21769.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21761.13659375,"end":21762.554093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21762.655343750004,"end":21764.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21764.39346875,"end":21764.444093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21764.528468750003,"end":21764.663468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":21769.709093750003,"end":21770.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21769.725968749997,"end":21771.396593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":21772.07159375,"end":21781.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":21782.29784375,"end":21802.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21787.512218750002,"end":21787.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21794.63346875,"end":21794.734718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21799.08846875,"end":21800.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21801.366593749997,"end":21801.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":21801.41721875,"end":21801.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21801.50159375,"end":21801.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":21801.80534375,"end":21801.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":21801.82221875,"end":21801.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":21802.15971875,"end":21802.193468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":21803.18909375,"end":21808.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21808.03221875,"end":21814.005968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21814.343468749998,"end":21826.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21827.067218750002,"end":21837.023468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21837.192218750002,"end":21866.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21866.453468749998,"end":21871.397843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21871.802843750003,"end":21875.734718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21876.30846875,"end":21877.422218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":21877.422218749998,"end":21877.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":21878.06346875,"end":21882.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":21882.434093750002,"end":21889.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21883.699718750002,"end":21884.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21888.42471875,"end":21897.655343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21898.043468750002,"end":21898.701593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21898.97159375,"end":21932.130968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21932.40096875,"end":21944.702843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21939.539093749998,"end":21939.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21939.58971875,"end":21940.382843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21945.293468750002,"end":21946.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21946.170968750004,"end":21947.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21947.976593749998,"end":21952.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21952.583468750003,"end":21952.920968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":21952.920968750004,"end":21956.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21956.194718749997,"end":21965.374718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21965.678468750004,"end":21967.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21967.21409375,"end":21982.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21982.36784375,"end":21984.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":21984.59534375,"end":22003.984718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":22006.060343750003,"end":22030.022843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22030.022843749997,"end":22030.107218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":22030.107218750003,"end":22030.529093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22030.529093750003,"end":22030.562843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":22030.562843749998,"end":22030.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22032.79034375,"end":22033.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22033.094093749998,"end":22033.195343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22033.24596875,"end":22125.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22125.029093750003,"end":22157.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22157.530343750004,"end":22162.069718749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22162.154093750003,"end":22165.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22165.748468750004,"end":22175.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22175.80596875,"end":22177.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22177.746593750002,"end":22178.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22179.83909375,"end":22181.138468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22181.50971875,"end":22182.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22183.21409375,"end":22186.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22186.77471875,"end":22189.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22189.609718749998,"end":22193.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22193.74409375,"end":22195.060343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22195.397843749997,"end":22197.389093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22197.65909375,"end":22202.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22203.00846875,"end":22203.919718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22204.240343750003,"end":22206.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22206.53534375,"end":22209.944093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22210.129718750002,"end":22212.154718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22212.18846875,"end":22213.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22214.179718749998,"end":22217.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22217.36909375,"end":22220.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22220.912843750004,"end":22222.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22222.43159375,"end":22224.929093749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22224.929093749997,"end":22225.570343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22225.30034375,"end":22231.898468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22231.898468749998,"end":22232.826593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22232.37096875,"end":22248.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22249.094093749998,"end":22267.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22268.162843750004,"end":22272.820343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22274.33909375,"end":22275.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22276.380968750003,"end":22279.874093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22280.160968750002,"end":22281.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22282.101593749998,"end":22283.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22284.02534375,"end":22285.375343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22285.476593749998,"end":22286.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22286.927843750003,"end":22288.716593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22289.00346875,"end":22289.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22289.965343750002,"end":22290.539093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22290.606593750003,"end":22308.679718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":22307.312843749998,"end":22307.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22307.43096875,"end":22307.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":22307.86971875,"end":22307.920343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22309.21971875,"end":22310.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22310.029718750004,"end":22313.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22312.42596875,"end":22312.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22313.01659375,"end":22313.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":22313.168468750002,"end":22313.185343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22313.185343750003,"end":22313.421593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":22313.421593749998,"end":22313.505968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22313.67471875,"end":22313.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22313.96159375,"end":22314.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22314.07971875,"end":22314.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22314.11346875,"end":22314.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22314.130343750003,"end":22314.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22314.19784375,"end":22314.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22314.38346875,"end":22315.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":22314.50159375,"end":22314.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22314.51846875,"end":22314.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":22314.53534375,"end":22315.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":22315.26096875,"end":22318.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22316.340968750003,"end":22316.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22317.505343750003,"end":22320.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22320.694718749997,"end":22322.601593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22323.59721875,"end":22328.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":22328.777843750002,"end":22329.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22329.38534375,"end":22339.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22340.47221875,"end":22345.382843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22345.889093750004,"end":22352.335343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22353.179093749997,"end":22355.389718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22356.30096875,"end":22359.203468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22360.013468750003,"end":22366.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22366.679093749997,"end":22374.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22375.319093750004,"end":22377.529718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22378.20471875,"end":22379.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22379.942843750003,"end":22380.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22381.208468750003,"end":22382.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22382.828468749998,"end":22388.076593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22388.85284375,"end":22393.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22393.898468749998,"end":22395.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22396.007843749998,"end":22399.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22401.00284375,"end":22416.038468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22416.30846875,"end":22427.310968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22427.46284375,"end":22455.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22456.25159375,"end":22492.060343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":22492.63409375,"end":22497.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22497.79784375,"end":22521.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22521.65909375,"end":22525.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22526.114093750002,"end":22528.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22528.72971875,"end":22534.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22535.395343750002,"end":22537.960343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":22538.179718749998,"end":22579.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22580.130968750003,"end":22580.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":22580.434718750003,"end":22581.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22581.02534375,"end":22581.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22581.936593750004,"end":22589.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22589.834093750003,"end":22599.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22600.262843750003,"end":22601.781593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22602.473468750002,"end":22602.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":22603.215968750003,"end":22637.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22638.61971875,"end":22642.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22642.973468750002,"end":22648.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22648.96409375,"end":22664.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22665.788468749997,"end":22667.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22667.037218750003,"end":22667.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22667.18909375,"end":22672.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22667.20596875,"end":22667.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22667.49284375,"end":22667.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":22667.52659375,"end":22667.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22667.965343750002,"end":22669.281593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22673.31471875,"end":22674.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22674.46221875,"end":22674.647843749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22675.187843749998,"end":22675.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22675.22159375,"end":22682.241593749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22681.515968749998,"end":22683.405968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22683.068468750003,"end":22708.060343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22708.380968750003,"end":22724.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22724.209718750004,"end":22754.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":22755.614093750002,"end":22773.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":22773.552218750003,"end":22787.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":22787.32221875,"end":22795.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":22796.29971875,"end":22819.030343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":22819.78971875,"end":22823.451593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":22823.670968750004,"end":22827.062843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":22827.585968749998,"end":22845.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":22845.33846875,"end":22849.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":22850.012843750003,"end":22858.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":22859.15909375,"end":22867.140968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22867.748468750004,"end":22874.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22875.71346875,"end":22885.889093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22886.395343750002,"end":22890.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22890.630968750003,"end":22891.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22892.28471875,"end":22893.921593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22894.39409375,"end":22899.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22900.16534375,"end":22906.037843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22906.20659375,"end":22907.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22908.41721875,"end":22911.640343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22912.028468750003,"end":22912.467218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22912.787843750004,"end":22913.952218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22914.137843750003,"end":22915.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22915.67346875,"end":22916.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22917.833468750003,"end":22919.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22920.12846875,"end":22927.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":22928.802218750003,"end":22929.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":22929.966593750003,"end":22933.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":22933.69596875,"end":22950.233468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":22950.959093750003,"end":22965.100343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":22961.826593750004,"end":22961.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22961.86034375,"end":22962.147218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22964.695343749998,"end":22968.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":22966.905968749998,"end":22971.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22968.677843750003,"end":22970.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22972.30596875,"end":22974.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":22972.33971875,"end":22972.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":22975.225343750004,"end":22976.187218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":22975.866593749997,"end":22983.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":22985.012843750003,"end":22990.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":22991.155343750004,"end":22995.475343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":22995.762218750002,"end":22996.217843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":22996.57221875,"end":23000.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":23001.11159375,"end":23003.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":23004.06471875,"end":23027.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":23028.297218749998,"end":23050.960343749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":23051.75346875,"end":23055.482843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":23056.005968750003,"end":23057.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23057.65971875,"end":23061.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":23060.91659375,"end":23064.122843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23063.75159375,"end":23063.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23063.85284375,"end":23064.038468749997},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":23064.038468749997,"end":23064.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23064.08909375,"end":23064.139718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23064.122843750003,"end":23064.257843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":23065.97909375,"end":23067.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23066.70471875,"end":23066.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":23066.73846875,"end":23066.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23066.974718750003,"end":23067.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23067.66659375,"end":23067.734093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":23067.734093749998,"end":23067.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23067.78471875,"end":23067.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":23067.85221875,"end":23067.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":23068.07159375,"end":23068.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":23070.265343749998,"end":23071.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":23072.40846875,"end":23077.217843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":23078.11221875,"end":23081.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":23081.757218749997,"end":23084.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":23084.96346875,"end":23086.802843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":23087.19096875,"end":23091.342218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":23092.57409375,"end":23097.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":23098.15971875,"end":23098.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":23099.256593750004,"end":23100.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":23101.129718750002,"end":23106.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23105.027843750002,"end":23105.264093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23108.875343749998,"end":23116.030343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23116.60409375,"end":23119.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23120.265968749998,"end":23126.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23129.46284375,"end":23134.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23134.30596875,"end":23134.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23135.57159375,"end":23143.131593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23143.890968749998,"end":23145.342218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23145.949718750002,"end":23148.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23148.66659375,"end":23150.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23150.303468750004,"end":23153.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23153.39159375,"end":23155.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23155.85534375,"end":23159.787218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23159.97284375,"end":23161.272218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23161.96409375,"end":23168.967218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23168.967218750004,"end":23169.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23169.051593750002,"end":23169.709718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23169.709718750004,"end":23169.726593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23169.726593749998,"end":23170.013468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23170.013468750003,"end":23170.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23170.82346875,"end":23183.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23183.88471875,"end":23183.952218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23184.390968749998,"end":23184.475343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23184.475343750004,"end":23184.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23184.96471875,"end":23221.279718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":23221.75221875,"end":23254.928468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23255.80596875,"end":23259.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23259.92346875,"end":23287.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23288.779718750004,"end":23288.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":23288.965343750002,"end":23289.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23289.387218750002,"end":23289.623468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":23289.623468750004,"end":23289.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23289.89346875,"end":23289.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":23289.97784375,"end":23294.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":23294.905343750004,"end":23299.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":23300.254718750002,"end":23306.920343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":23307.139718750004,"end":23333.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":23335.45596875,"end":23339.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23339.067218750002,"end":23339.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23339.97846875,"end":23353.107218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23353.326593750004,"end":23356.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23356.75221875,"end":23385.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23386.131593750004,"end":23392.375343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23393.05034375,"end":23407.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23407.934093750002,"end":23409.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23409.638468750003,"end":23410.904093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23411.49471875,"end":23413.030343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23413.435343750003,"end":23418.396593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23419.223468750002,"end":23421.771593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23421.889718750004,"end":23445.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23445.76784375,"end":23446.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23446.965968750003,"end":23450.239718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23450.543468750002,"end":23452.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23452.973468750002,"end":23462.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23462.929718749998,"end":23473.240343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23473.59471875,"end":23476.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23477.020343750002,"end":23478.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23478.809093750002,"end":23481.795968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23482.26846875,"end":23484.107843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23484.39471875,"end":23487.077843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23487.93846875,"end":23488.664093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23489.777843750002,"end":23490.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23490.840968750003,"end":23491.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23491.785968750002,"end":23493.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23493.895343750002,"end":23506.804718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23507.27721875,"end":23533.281593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23533.92284375,"end":23540.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23540.89221875,"end":23550.342218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23550.81471875,"end":23565.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23565.27659375,"end":23572.060343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":23573.663468750005,"end":23577.038468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":23578.422218749998,"end":23584.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":23585.52659375,"end":23592.850343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":23593.390343749998,"end":23614.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":23614.551593750002,"end":23626.178468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23627.17409375,"end":23633.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23630.85284375,"end":23640.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23640.960968749998,"end":23663.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23664.771593750003,"end":23666.054093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23666.678468750004,"end":23680.937843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":23680.937843749998,"end":23680.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":23682.35534375,"end":23684.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":23685.156593749998,"end":23704.242218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":23704.664093749998,"end":23707.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23708.359718749998,"end":23710.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23710.58721875,"end":23718.771593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23719.210343750005,"end":23720.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23721.522218750004,"end":23725.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23725.403468750003,"end":23729.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":23729.436593750004,"end":23736.490343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23736.490343750003,"end":23743.476593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23743.81409375,"end":23747.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23748.35346875,"end":23752.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23752.504718750002,"end":23758.427843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23758.78221875,"end":23770.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23770.982843750004,"end":23782.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23782.356593750003,"end":23783.942843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23784.19596875,"end":23787.672218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23787.90846875,"end":23788.802843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23789.15721875,"end":23791.654718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23792.21159375,"end":23793.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":23794.55721875,"end":23795.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23797.62846875,"end":23805.458468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23805.64409375,"end":23808.023468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23808.225968750005,"end":23810.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23810.70659375,"end":23811.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23812.124093750004,"end":23814.014093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23814.36846875,"end":23817.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23817.22034375,"end":23821.422218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23821.45596875,"end":23827.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23828.054093750005,"end":23831.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23831.969093749998,"end":23836.272218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23836.694093750004,"end":23838.398468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23838.73596875,"end":23839.950968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23840.45721875,"end":23844.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23844.96284375,"end":23867.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23867.13659375,"end":23876.772218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23877.43034375,"end":23890.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23890.457843750002,"end":23891.419718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23891.70659375,"end":23894.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23894.254718750002,"end":23901.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23901.91596875,"end":23905.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23906.590343750002,"end":23909.459093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23910.285968750002,"end":23912.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23912.80034375,"end":23922.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23923.043468750002,"end":23930.890343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23930.90721875,"end":23944.187843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23945.419718750003,"end":23947.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23947.410968750002,"end":23967.171593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23967.71159375,"end":23968.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23969.43284375,"end":23990.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23991.35346875,"end":23992.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23993.732843750004,"end":23994.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":23994.93096875,"end":24014.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24014.910968750002,"end":24015.990968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24016.15971875,"end":24026.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":24026.89221875,"end":24054.246593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24054.87096875,"end":24058.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24059.427218750003,"end":24064.388468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24064.388468750003,"end":24071.695343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24071.965343750002,"end":24075.593468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24076.16721875,"end":24079.187843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24079.44096875,"end":24087.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24087.608468750004,"end":24092.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24092.687843749998,"end":24100.568468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24100.85534375,"end":24103.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24103.319093750004,"end":24125.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24125.594093749998,"end":24130.015343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24130.116593750005,"end":24132.951593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24133.677218750003,"end":24181.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24180.15096875,"end":24180.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24180.16784375,"end":24180.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24180.184718750003,"end":24180.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":24180.97784375,"end":24181.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24181.07909375,"end":24181.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24181.973468750002,"end":24193.077218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24193.21221875,"end":24195.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24195.32159375,"end":24198.983468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24199.304093750005,"end":24201.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24200.873468750004,"end":24201.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24201.78471875,"end":24204.349718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24204.349718750003,"end":24204.366593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24204.366593750005,"end":24205.615343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24206.62784375,"end":24219.452843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24219.638468750003,"end":24222.996593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24223.36784375,"end":24299.609093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":24280.084718750004,"end":24280.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24298.19159375,"end":24298.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24299.507843749998,"end":24333.764093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24334.000343749998,"end":24335.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24335.755343750003,"end":24336.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24337.645343750002,"end":24346.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24346.943468750003,"end":24347.787218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24349.373468750004,"end":24349.390343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24349.390343749998,"end":24350.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24351.499718749998,"end":24353.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24353.64284375,"end":24355.802843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24356.08971875,"end":24357.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24357.794093750003,"end":24360.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24361.270343750002,"end":24362.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24363.835343750005,"end":24366.771593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24366.974093750003,"end":24367.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24367.075343750003,"end":24370.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24370.85534375,"end":24371.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24372.40784375,"end":24374.483468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24375.25971875,"end":24378.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24379.57971875,"end":24380.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24381.419093750003,"end":24385.772843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24386.819093750004,"end":24390.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24391.459718750004,"end":24396.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24397.045343750004,"end":24399.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24400.15034375,"end":24400.842218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24401.466593750003,"end":24404.014718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24404.57159375,"end":24405.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24406.17471875,"end":24406.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24407.828468749998,"end":24418.476593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24418.780343750004,"end":24428.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24429.023468749998,"end":24435.959093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24436.617218749998,"end":24444.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24445.476593749998,"end":24448.294718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24449.61096875,"end":24451.349093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24451.686593750004,"end":24452.834093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24453.44159375,"end":24453.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24454.97721875,"end":24457.069718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24457.694093750004,"end":24459.162218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24459.33096875,"end":24460.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24460.78221875,"end":24469.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24471.396593750003,"end":24486.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24486.95534375,"end":24498.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24498.75096875,"end":24505.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24498.902843750002,"end":24499.560968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24506.05784375,"end":24511.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24511.980968750002,"end":24520.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24522.37596875,"end":24522.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24523.810343750003,"end":24526.054718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24526.27409375,"end":24534.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24532.41659375,"end":24533.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24534.036593750003,"end":24534.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24534.559718750003,"end":24534.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24534.62721875,"end":24534.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24534.74534375,"end":24534.812843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24534.812843749998,"end":24534.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24534.96471875,"end":24535.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24535.03221875,"end":24537.732218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24539.04846875,"end":24542.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24543.216593750003,"end":24545.444093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24548.684093750002,"end":24550.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24549.30846875,"end":24550.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24552.210968749998,"end":24552.734093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":24553.223468750002,"end":24573.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":24557.037218750003,"end":24559.281593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24573.03471875,"end":24584.779718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24585.015968749998,"end":24586.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24587.834093750003,"end":24588.795968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24589.859093749998,"end":24591.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24592.54221875,"end":24597.233468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24597.79034375,"end":24603.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24604.87784375,"end":24605.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24606.295343750004,"end":24606.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24607.797218749998,"end":24608.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24609.062843749998,"end":24616.015343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24616.28534375,"end":24618.344093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":24616.58909375,"end":24618.546593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24618.546593749998,"end":24618.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":24618.968468749998,"end":24643.015343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24619.93034375,"end":24620.014718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":24620.014718750004,"end":24620.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24620.099093750003,"end":24620.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":24620.976593749998,"end":24621.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24621.668468750002,"end":24621.803468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":24621.803468750004,"end":24622.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24622.731593750003,"end":24622.967843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24622.967843750004,"end":24623.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24623.03534375,"end":24623.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24623.777843750002,"end":24632.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":24632.974718750003,"end":24633.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":24633.278468750003,"end":24633.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":24635.26971875,"end":24635.320343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24635.320343749998,"end":24635.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24635.35409375,"end":24635.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24635.97846875,"end":24637.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24637.02471875,"end":24644.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24643.015343749998,"end":24643.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":24643.16721875,"end":24643.200968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24646.035968750002,"end":24648.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24649.512218750002,"end":24651.537218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24652.31346875,"end":24661.982843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24662.607218750003,"end":24678.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24679.11096875,"end":24681.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24681.64221875,"end":24684.865343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24685.54034375,"end":24686.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24687.54846875,"end":24688.476593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24689.05034375,"end":24691.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24691.699718750002,"end":24693.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24694.43346875,"end":24697.639718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24699.36096875,"end":24701.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24701.841593750003,"end":24703.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24703.984718749998,"end":24707.309093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24707.849093750003,"end":24710.802218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24712.084718750004,"end":24713.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24714.34596875,"end":24716.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24716.303468750004,"end":24727.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":24727.82909375,"end":24740.890343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24741.44721875,"end":24762.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":24763.317218750002,"end":24766.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":24770.96159375,"end":24788.646593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24788.849093750003,"end":24790.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":24789.372218750003,"end":24810.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":24810.364718750003,"end":24814.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":24814.97159375,"end":24815.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24817.334093750003,"end":24822.109718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24822.480968750002,"end":24823.982843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24824.286593750003,"end":24826.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24827.239718750003,"end":24833.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24835.474718750003,"end":24837.297218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":24837.297218749998,"end":24843.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":24843.287843750004,"end":24857.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":24858.22221875,"end":24859.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":24859.58909375,"end":24873.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":24873.27471875,"end":24875.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24875.72159375,"end":24877.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24877.560968750004,"end":24880.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24880.632218750005,"end":24885.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24885.86346875,"end":24891.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24892.090343750002,"end":24901.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24901.25346875,"end":24912.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":24912.677843750003,"end":24918.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24919.79909375,"end":24923.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24923.91659375,"end":24937.045343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24937.129718750002,"end":24942.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24943.137218750002,"end":24947.372843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":24947.94659375,"end":25072.484093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25073.36159375,"end":25076.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25077.850343750004,"end":25078.052843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25078.390343749998,"end":25081.967843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25082.87909375,"end":25083.672218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25084.22909375,"end":25088.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25090.45596875,"end":25091.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25091.029718750004,"end":25091.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25091.974718750003,"end":25092.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25092.02534375,"end":25092.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25092.75096875,"end":25137.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25137.89159375,"end":25139.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25139.81534375,"end":25141.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25142.397218750004,"end":25148.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25149.012218750002,"end":25149.990968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":25149.029093750003,"end":25150.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":25151.560343750003,"end":25151.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":25151.91471875,"end":25159.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":25159.44096875,"end":25166.325968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25162.39409375,"end":25162.529093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":25162.529093750003,"end":25162.545968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25162.545968750004,"end":25162.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":25162.57971875,"end":25162.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25162.59659375,"end":25162.748468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":25166.865968750004,"end":25168.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":25168.51971875,"end":25172.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":25172.50221875,"end":25174.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":25174.341593750003,"end":25175.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":25175.320343749998,"end":25195.131593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25187.77409375,"end":25188.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25195.38471875,"end":25205.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25205.52659375,"end":25206.404093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25206.65721875,"end":25207.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25207.60221875,"end":25214.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25207.652843750002,"end":25208.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25213.54221875,"end":25218.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25220.207843750002,"end":25225.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":25224.47721875,"end":25224.527843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25224.527843750002,"end":25224.578468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":25224.578468749998,"end":25224.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25224.61221875,"end":25224.679718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":25224.679718749998,"end":25225.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25225.32096875,"end":25226.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":25225.43909375,"end":25225.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":25226.654093750003,"end":25226.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":25226.94096875,"end":25227.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":25227.88596875,"end":25228.375343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":25229.23596875,"end":25234.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":25235.969093749998,"end":25238.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25237.77471875,"end":25237.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25238.027843750002,"end":25238.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":25238.09534375,"end":25238.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25238.23034375,"end":25238.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25238.95596875,"end":25245.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25245.773468749998,"end":25246.718468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25246.97159375,"end":25250.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25248.22034375,"end":25248.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":25248.43971875,"end":25248.507218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25248.507218750005,"end":25248.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":25248.574718750002,"end":25248.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25248.77721875,"end":25248.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":25250.920343750004,"end":25251.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25255.577843749998,"end":25261.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25262.294093750003,"end":25264.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25264.757843749998,"end":25269.904718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25271.84534375,"end":25272.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25273.060343750003,"end":25279.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":25279.624718749998,"end":25301.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":25301.59596875,"end":25302.186593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":25302.490343750003,"end":25310.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":25311.265343749998,"end":25312.007843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":25313.779718750004,"end":25316.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25314.04971875,"end":25316.547218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25317.795968750004,"end":25320.209093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":25318.420343750004,"end":25320.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25320.732218750003,"end":25320.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25320.78284375,"end":25320.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25320.833468750003,"end":25320.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25320.968468749998,"end":25321.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25321.10346875,"end":25321.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":25321.12034375,"end":25321.896593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25321.609718749998,"end":25321.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25321.72784375,"end":25321.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25321.74471875,"end":25321.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25321.896593750003,"end":25324.140968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25322.89221875,"end":25324.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":25325.575343750003,"end":25327.094093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25327.22909375,"end":25328.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25328.663468750005,"end":25329.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25331.76846875,"end":25333.388468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25333.97909375,"end":25335.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25336.037843750004,"end":25336.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25337.67471875,"end":25339.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25339.530968749998,"end":25339.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25340.61096875,"end":25342.990343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25342.82159375,"end":25361.552843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25348.76159375,"end":25348.795343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":25348.795343750004,"end":25349.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25361.58659375,"end":25361.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25361.60346875,"end":25361.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25361.62034375,"end":25361.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25361.974718750003,"end":25362.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25362.295343750004,"end":25366.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25366.919093750003,"end":25372.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25372.403468750003,"end":25374.124718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25373.63534375,"end":25376.655968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25376.318468750003,"end":25376.875343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25377.077843749998,"end":25378.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25378.748468750004,"end":25380.452843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25380.638468750003,"end":25386.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25387.33784375,"end":25388.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25388.451593750004,"end":25390.139093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25391.13471875,"end":25392.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25394.172218749998,"end":25405.562843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":25408.63409375,"end":25408.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25408.66784375,"end":25410.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25410.76034375,"end":25411.350968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25412.14409375,"end":25422.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25420.935968750004,"end":25420.952843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25420.952843749998,"end":25421.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25421.543468750002,"end":25421.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25423.230968750002,"end":25423.247843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25423.247843750003,"end":25427.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25423.61909375,"end":25424.327843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25427.11221875,"end":25427.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25427.51721875,"end":25430.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25430.402843750002,"end":25431.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25430.79096875,"end":25438.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25438.739093750002,"end":25444.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25441.23659375,"end":25442.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25444.84784375,"end":25445.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25445.05034375,"end":25466.717843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25455.66471875,"end":25455.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":25455.68159375,"end":25455.968468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25455.968468749998,"end":25456.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25456.96409375,"end":25457.014718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":25457.014718750004,"end":25458.921593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25466.97096875,"end":25491.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25491.74346875,"end":25494.038468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25491.76034375,"end":25492.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25494.08909375,"end":25495.067843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25495.624718749998,"end":25496.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25496.957843750002,"end":25499.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25497.46409375,"end":25498.560968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25498.560968750004,"end":25498.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25499.03346875,"end":25500.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25499.87721875,"end":25503.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25501.80096875,"end":25502.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25503.825968750003,"end":25506.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25504.264718750004,"end":25506.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25506.492218749998,"end":25507.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25507.03221875,"end":25507.859093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25507.859093749998,"end":25507.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25507.87596875,"end":25507.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25507.99409375,"end":25508.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25508.01096875,"end":25508.702843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25508.702843749998,"end":25509.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25509.69846875,"end":25516.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":25515.06471875,"end":25515.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25515.16596875,"end":25515.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":25517.882843749998,"end":25522.911593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":25523.552843750003,"end":25525.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":25526.45534375,"end":25555.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25555.14284375,"end":25555.210343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25556.83034375,"end":25560.492218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25560.84659375,"end":25562.804093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25563.36096875,"end":25564.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25564.879718750002,"end":25565.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25565.436593750004,"end":25566.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25565.58846875,"end":25566.600968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":25566.53346875,"end":25566.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25567.562843749998,"end":25568.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":25568.96346875,"end":25581.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25580.11784375,"end":25580.185343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":25580.185343750003,"end":25580.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25581.029093750003,"end":25583.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25584.25221875,"end":25585.551593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25586.125343749998,"end":25589.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":25589.71971875,"end":25590.023468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25591.373468750004,"end":25600.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25600.654718750004,"end":25601.279093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25601.78534375,"end":25603.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25603.86096875,"end":25606.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25606.69596875,"end":25608.569093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25608.974093750003,"end":25610.897843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25611.25221875,"end":25612.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25612.85534375,"end":25615.437218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25615.99409375,"end":25619.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25621.88346875,"end":25629.038468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25629.038468750005,"end":25632.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25631.569718750005,"end":25632.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25632.14346875,"end":25632.210968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25633.358468750004,"end":25636.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25634.97846875,"end":25635.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25635.029093750003,"end":25635.569093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25637.172218749998,"end":25638.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25638.285968750002,"end":25640.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25641.40784375,"end":25646.554718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25648.19159375,"end":25652.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25652.309093750002,"end":25653.827843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25655.97096875,"end":25659.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":25658.19846875,"end":25659.953468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25660.29096875,"end":25668.795968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25667.007218750005,"end":25667.429093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25669.521593750003,"end":25670.483468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25669.538468750005,"end":25671.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":25672.23846875,"end":25673.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25672.255343750003,"end":25675.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25676.254718750002,"end":25677.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25678.14471875,"end":25678.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25679.882843749998,"end":25694.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25695.00284375,"end":25698.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":25698.428468750004,"end":25698.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25699.33971875,"end":25728.820343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":25728.97221875,"end":25734.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25729.07346875,"end":25730.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25735.28346875,"end":25736.920343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25737.764093750004,"end":25739.890343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25740.26159375,"end":25742.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25743.07971875,"end":25748.530343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25748.76659375,"end":25758.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25758.655343750004,"end":25761.152843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25762.958468750003,"end":25766.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25767.34596875,"end":25769.33721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25769.53971875,"end":25772.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25772.999093750004,"end":25776.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25777.437218749998,"end":25783.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25784.22096875,"end":25785.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25786.34721875,"end":25791.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25791.949718750002,"end":25795.459718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25796.43846875,"end":25799.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":25801.990343750003,"end":25805.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25805.39909375,"end":25805.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25805.53409375,"end":25805.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25805.71971875,"end":25806.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25806.05721875,"end":25806.614093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25806.614093750002,"end":25807.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25807.72784375,"end":25807.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25807.84596875,"end":25807.896593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25807.896593750003,"end":25807.997843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25808.18346875,"end":25809.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25810.849718750003,"end":25823.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25824.41721875,"end":25842.186593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25842.35534375,"end":25859.922218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25842.625343749998,"end":25842.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25842.692843750003,"end":25847.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25848.194093750004,"end":25848.734093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25849.59471875,"end":25850.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25852.34534375,"end":25852.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":25852.699718750002,"end":25852.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25852.96971875,"end":25853.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":25853.864093750002,"end":25853.880968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25858.16721875,"end":25859.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":25859.027843750002,"end":25859.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25860.344093749998,"end":25875.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":25861.137218750002,"end":25863.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25864.46159375,"end":25864.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":25864.49534375,"end":25865.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25865.65971875,"end":25865.710343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25870.215968750003,"end":25872.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25874.687843749998,"end":25875.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25875.64971875,"end":25875.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25875.97034375,"end":25875.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25876.662218750003,"end":25880.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25879.429718749998,"end":25880.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25880.71221875,"end":25881.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25881.623468750004,"end":25883.310968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25884.154718750004,"end":25896.304718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25884.54284375,"end":25886.280968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25889.301593750002,"end":25902.295343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25897.030343750004,"end":25910.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25902.88596875,"end":25903.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25904.87721875,"end":25904.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25904.99534375,"end":25905.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25905.029093750003,"end":25905.484718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25907.340968750003,"end":25908.100343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25909.11284375,"end":25923.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":25910.15909375,"end":25910.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25923.726593749998,"end":25957.982843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25930.59471875,"end":25930.763468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":25930.763468750003,"end":25931.185343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25931.185343750003,"end":25931.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25945.005968750003,"end":25945.529093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25957.763468750003,"end":25959.164093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25957.999718749998,"end":25958.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25958.522843750005,"end":25958.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":25959.164093749998,"end":25959.467843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25959.467843750004,"end":25961.475968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25962.420968750004,"end":25962.741593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25963.33221875,"end":25964.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25965.340343750002,"end":25965.812843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25966.69034375,"end":25976.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25977.13596875,"end":25982.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":25982.51909375,"end":26007.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26010.599093750003,"end":26014.733468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":26015.273468749998,"end":26042.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":26042.594093749998,"end":26052.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":26052.76971875,"end":26056.195343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26056.904093750003,"end":26057.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":26060.56596875,"end":26060.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26060.97096875,"end":26062.000343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26062.35471875,"end":26063.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26063.62034375,"end":26064.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26065.122218750003,"end":26073.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26074.47096875,"end":26078.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26079.63471875,"end":26080.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26080.647218750004,"end":26084.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26085.372218750003,"end":26085.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26086.418468750002,"end":26088.882218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26089.43909375,"end":26090.265968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26090.83971875,"end":26092.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26092.358468750004,"end":26093.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26095.176593750002,"end":26104.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26104.62659375,"end":26109.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26109.840968750003,"end":26123.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26123.52659375,"end":26132.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26133.12846875,"end":26162.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26162.372843750003,"end":26168.194718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26168.54909375,"end":26176.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26176.277843750002,"end":26179.669718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26180.37846875,"end":26187.060968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26187.53346875,"end":26194.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26195.684093750002,"end":26200.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26200.662218750003,"end":26203.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26203.98659375,"end":26204.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26204.72909375,"end":26207.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26207.631593750004,"end":26215.748468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26215.984718749998,"end":26216.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26216.069093750004,"end":26218.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26219.865968750004,"end":26221.249718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26221.975343750004,"end":26224.607843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26225.06346875,"end":26231.475968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26232.06659375,"end":26250.882218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26251.287218750003,"end":26251.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26252.029718750004,"end":26255.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26255.607218750003,"end":26256.906593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26257.15971875,"end":26258.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26258.93159375,"end":26261.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26262.22221875,"end":26263.740968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26263.90971875,"end":26264.702843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26265.951593750004,"end":26267.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26269.005968750003,"end":26271.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26271.942218750002,"end":26274.169718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26275.30034375,"end":26276.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26276.835968749998,"end":26279.772218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26279.991593750005,"end":26290.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26293.272218750004,"end":26293.289093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26293.289093749998,"end":26294.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26294.50409375,"end":26295.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26295.21284375,"end":26295.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26295.55034375,"end":26298.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":26295.63471875,"end":26296.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26296.71471875,"end":26296.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26298.554093750005,"end":26298.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26298.57096875,"end":26299.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26299.600343750004,"end":26299.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26299.63409375,"end":26302.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26303.279093750003,"end":26303.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26304.17346875,"end":26308.999718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26309.33721875,"end":26313.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26313.927218750003,"end":26315.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26315.209718750004,"end":26320.694093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26321.48721875,"end":26323.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26324.187218749998,"end":26326.684718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26326.87034375,"end":26327.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26328.490343750003,"end":26329.874093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26331.19034375,"end":26332.607843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26333.70471875,"end":26335.375343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26336.286593750003,"end":26340.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26341.669718750003,"end":26344.200968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26344.97721875,"end":26346.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26347.154093750003,"end":26350.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26351.11971875,"end":26354.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26355.270968750003,"end":26357.312843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26357.616593750005,"end":26358.359093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26359.05096875,"end":26360.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26360.38409375,"end":26361.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26362.07159375,"end":26362.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26362.864718750003,"end":26364.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26365.075343750003,"end":26366.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26366.897843750005,"end":26367.437843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26368.09596875,"end":26369.513468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26370.01971875,"end":26372.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26372.71971875,"end":26378.372843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26379.520343750002,"end":26385.038468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26385.325343750003,"end":26390.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26391.164093749998,"end":26398.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26399.12909375,"end":26403.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26405.01846875,"end":26412.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26412.81471875,"end":26416.560968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26416.83096875,"end":26418.045968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26418.41721875,"end":26419.750343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26420.357843750004,"end":26421.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26422.129718750002,"end":26423.125343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26423.294093750003,"end":26425.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26425.521593750003,"end":26426.162843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26427.310343750003,"end":26429.318468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26430.09471875,"end":26435.646593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26438.498468750004,"end":26439.122843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26439.27471875,"end":26442.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26442.177218750003,"end":26444.100968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26444.86034375,"end":26446.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26447.74596875,"end":26452.099718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26452.36971875,"end":26453.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26453.483468750004,"end":26456.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":26457.179093750005,"end":26464.890968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26466.561593750004,"end":26468.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26468.31659375,"end":26468.569718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26469.12659375,"end":26475.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26476.062218749998,"end":26513.372843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26513.828468749998,"end":26553.349718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26554.15971875,"end":26561.888468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26562.49596875,"end":26566.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26566.61346875,"end":26609.897843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26606.505968750003,"end":26606.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26606.77596875,"end":26606.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26610.420968750004,"end":26611.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26611.889093750004,"end":26613.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26614.437218749998,"end":26633.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26633.96159375,"end":26645.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":26646.567218750002,"end":26666.952218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26667.40784375,"end":26672.824718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26672.90909375,"end":26674.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26674.39409375,"end":26686.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26687.37096875,"end":26689.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26689.88534375,"end":26693.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26693.27721875,"end":26699.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26700.21284375,"end":26718.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26719.61909375,"end":26724.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26724.56346875,"end":26729.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26729.87909375,"end":26737.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26738.012843750003,"end":26743.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26743.733468750004,"end":26753.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26754.01034375,"end":26755.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26756.153468750003,"end":26766.632843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":26766.717218750004,"end":26767.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26767.645343750002,"end":26769.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26769.467843750004,"end":26772.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26773.652843750002,"end":26775.897218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26776.47096875,"end":26782.984718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26784.04784375,"end":26793.514718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26794.122218750003,"end":26796.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26796.50159375,"end":26802.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26803.015343749998,"end":26804.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26804.787218750003,"end":26810.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26811.04784375,"end":26814.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26814.507218750005,"end":26816.937218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26817.578468749998,"end":26820.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26820.14346875,"end":26838.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26838.773468749998,"end":26842.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26842.418468750002,"end":26843.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26844.37596875,"end":26847.092843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26847.599093750003,"end":26853.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26854.19721875,"end":26857.200968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26857.67346875,"end":26861.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26861.942843750003,"end":26880.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26881.11284375,"end":26883.154718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26883.52596875,"end":26885.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26885.29784375,"end":26886.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26886.732218750003,"end":26904.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":26904.990968750004,"end":26909.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":26910.50909375,"end":26910.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":26910.52596875,"end":26911.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":26912.29784375,"end":26913.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":26913.36096875,"end":26918.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":26918.98034375,"end":26920.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":26922.45659375,"end":26928.734093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26922.726593749998,"end":26924.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":26924.78534375,"end":26924.819093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":26929.18971875,"end":27004.890968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27000.756593750004,"end":27001.077218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27002.646593750003,"end":27008.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27009.64971875,"end":27011.505968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27011.79284375,"end":27029.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27029.984093749998,"end":27032.717843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27032.95409375,"end":27059.819093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27060.359093749998,"end":27102.529718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":27102.98534375,"end":27147.484718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27147.164093749998,"end":27153.154718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27152.17596875,"end":27158.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27154.656593749998,"end":27156.327218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27159.904718750004,"end":27161.288468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":27161.777843750002,"end":27162.132218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27162.132218750005,"end":27162.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":27162.14909375,"end":27162.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":27162.16596875,"end":27162.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27162.18284375,"end":27164.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":27165.84471875,"end":27174.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":27174.29909375,"end":27178.146593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":27178.43346875,"end":27181.656593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":27181.89284375,"end":27192.287843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":27192.473468750002,"end":27198.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":27198.54846875,"end":27199.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":27199.91534375,"end":27207.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":27207.94784375,"end":27217.802843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":27218.49471875,"end":27230.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":27230.965343750002,"end":27232.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":27233.108468750004,"end":27234.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27234.492218749998,"end":27244.600343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27244.600343750004,"end":27247.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27244.617218749998,"end":27246.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27248.481593750003,"end":27251.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":27252.092843750004,"end":27252.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27252.32909375,"end":27253.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":27252.36284375,"end":27252.396593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27254.590343750002,"end":27255.670343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27256.075343750003,"end":27257.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27257.29034375,"end":27258.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27259.247843750003,"end":27259.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27259.82159375,"end":27260.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27261.475343750004,"end":27265.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27266.841593750003,"end":27270.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27271.53284375,"end":27273.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27273.709718750004,"end":27274.469093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27274.72221875,"end":27276.578468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27276.949718750002,"end":27278.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27279.312218749998,"end":27282.484718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27283.54784375,"end":27285.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27286.028468750003,"end":27287.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27288.94784375,"end":27294.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27295.15784375,"end":27296.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27296.490968750004,"end":27297.216593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27297.80721875,"end":27301.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27301.840343750002,"end":27302.295968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27302.920343750004,"end":27309.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27310.109093749998,"end":27311.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27312.437843749998,"end":27312.842843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27313.804718749998,"end":27315.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27316.16721875,"end":27317.162843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27317.601593749998,"end":27318.546593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27319.609718749998,"end":27320.740343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27322.39409375,"end":27324.435968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27324.68909375,"end":27327.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27329.684093750002,"end":27334.881593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27335.303468750004,"end":27344.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27344.685968750004,"end":27346.170968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27346.82909375,"end":27350.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27351.06471875,"end":27353.865968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27354.01784375,"end":27354.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27354.085343750005,"end":27356.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27356.515343749998,"end":27357.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27358.05096875,"end":27358.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27359.08034375,"end":27360.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27361.577843749998,"end":27363.248468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27364.04159375,"end":27364.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27365.39159375,"end":27366.302843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27366.65721875,"end":27368.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27369.880343750003,"end":27373.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27374.858468750004,"end":27377.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27377.710343750005,"end":27382.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27383.00909375,"end":27387.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27388.17284375,"end":27388.780343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27389.86034375,"end":27390.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27392.965343750002,"end":27393.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27394.93971875,"end":27397.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27397.13346875,"end":27398.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27399.79971875,"end":27401.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27402.85409375,"end":27405.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27406.819718750005,"end":27408.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27408.96284375,"end":27410.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27410.66721875,"end":27411.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27412.844093749998,"end":27413.232218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27413.58659375,"end":27415.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27416.320343749998,"end":27418.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27418.86846875,"end":27421.062218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27422.04096875,"end":27427.457843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27428.14971875,"end":27429.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27430.78221875,"end":27434.747843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27435.22034375,"end":27435.507218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27435.97971875,"end":27437.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27438.443468750003,"end":27440.265968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27441.54846875,"end":27442.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27443.11784375,"end":27444.484718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27445.86846875,"end":27446.273468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27446.796593749998,"end":27450.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27451.842218750004,"end":27452.280968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27453.47909375,"end":27455.757218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27456.12846875,"end":27457.529093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27458.13659375,"end":27458.811593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27459.57096875,"end":27461.325968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27462.186593750004,"end":27462.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27463.38471875,"end":27466.287218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27466.945343749998,"end":27476.327843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27476.935343750003,"end":27481.052843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27481.08659375,"end":27486.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27486.857843750004,"end":27488.460968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27488.68034375,"end":27490.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27491.22846875,"end":27492.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27492.61221875,"end":27493.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27493.99596875,"end":27494.367218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27495.22784375,"end":27497.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27498.366593750005,"end":27502.062218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27502.92284375,"end":27505.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27506.247218750003,"end":27509.115968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27509.740343750003,"end":27513.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27513.756593750004,"end":27514.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27514.937843749998,"end":27524.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27525.83909375,"end":27526.851593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27527.20596875,"end":27529.365968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":27529.568468750003,"end":27529.585343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27530.14221875,"end":27531.475343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27532.55534375,"end":27534.124718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27535.42409375,"end":27537.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27537.85409375,"end":27539.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27540.30096875,"end":27541.482218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27542.967218750004,"end":27543.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27544.09784375,"end":27547.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":27548.029718750004,"end":27550.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27551.11784375,"end":27577.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27577.93221875,"end":27583.889093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27584.935343750003,"end":27594.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27595.296593749998,"end":27601.709093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27602.451593750004,"end":27607.632218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27608.00346875,"end":27609.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":27608.71221875,"end":27611.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27611.69909375,"end":27618.921593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":27613.89284375,"end":27615.428468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27619.208468750003,"end":27627.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27627.780968749998,"end":27632.320343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27632.97846875,"end":27641.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27641.888468750003,"end":27643.913468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27644.740343750003,"end":27649.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27649.718468750005,"end":27653.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27654.882218750005,"end":27657.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27979.523468749998,"end":27980.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27981.12659375,"end":27983.522843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27983.725343750004,"end":27984.366593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27984.872843750003,"end":27986.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27987.741593750005,"end":27990.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27991.825343750003,"end":27993.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":27994.474718750003,"end":28004.700968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":28005.240968750004,"end":28007.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":28008.075968750003,"end":28011.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":28011.872843750003,"end":28012.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":28013.695343749998,"end":28014.319718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":28015.85534375,"end":28017.053468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":28017.880343750003,"end":28022.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":28023.19596875,"end":28023.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":28023.668468750002,"end":28028.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":28028.460968749998,"end":28031.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":28032.20721875,"end":28032.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":28033.77659375,"end":28035.109718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":28036.42596875,"end":28036.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":28042.349093750003,"end":28043.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":28044.239093750002,"end":28049.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28045.926593750002,"end":28047.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28049.04846875,"end":28050.280343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":28049.639093750004,"end":28050.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":28050.280343750004,"end":28050.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28050.55034375,"end":28050.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":28050.97221875,"end":28064.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":28064.79284375,"end":28087.169093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":28087.57409375,"end":28180.538468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":28180.842218750004,"end":28182.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":28182.81659375,"end":28201.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":28206.94784375,"end":28210.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":28210.72784375,"end":28211.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":28211.26784375,"end":28214.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":28219.840343750002,"end":28221.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28222.270343750002,"end":28224.396593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":28222.45596875,"end":28222.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28225.476593749998,"end":28226.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28227.70409375,"end":28228.311593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28228.58159375,"end":28230.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28231.804718749998,"end":28234.757843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28235.61846875,"end":28240.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28241.490968750004,"end":28242.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28242.46971875,"end":28243.583468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28246.249718750005,"end":28249.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28250.18159375,"end":28252.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28253.640968749998,"end":28255.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28255.750343749998,"end":28257.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28257.960968749998,"end":28259.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28259.513468750003,"end":28262.584718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28263.529718750004,"end":28265.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28266.600968750005,"end":28266.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28267.49534375,"end":28268.592218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28269.38534375,"end":28272.085343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28272.76034375,"end":28273.975343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28274.920343750004,"end":28279.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28280.320343749998,"end":28280.725343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28280.96159375,"end":28282.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28282.615343750003,"end":28284.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28285.53471875,"end":28287.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28288.116593750005,"end":28289.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28289.51721875,"end":28294.950968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28295.254718750002,"end":28297.077218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28297.54971875,"end":28298.140343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28298.460968749998,"end":28303.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28304.16471875,"end":28306.139093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28306.577843750005,"end":28307.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28308.31596875,"end":28316.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28317.05721875,"end":28319.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28319.57159375,"end":28322.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28322.372843750003,"end":28327.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28327.840343750002,"end":28333.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28333.746593750002,"end":28335.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28335.265343750005,"end":28336.615343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28337.172218749998,"end":28337.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28338.404093750003,"end":28341.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28341.82971875,"end":28343.584718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28344.209093750003,"end":28348.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28348.47846875,"end":28351.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28351.617218749998,"end":28352.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28353.726593749998,"end":28355.295968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28355.700968750003,"end":28359.734093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28360.054718749998,"end":28360.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28361.53971875,"end":28367.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28367.935343750003,"end":28370.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28370.55096875,"end":28373.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28374.21284375,"end":28374.600968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28375.630343750003,"end":28377.351593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28378.279718750004,"end":28382.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28383.325343750003,"end":28388.43846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28389.21471875,"end":28389.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28390.210343750005,"end":28393.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28393.61909375,"end":28397.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28398.428468750004,"end":28401.044093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28402.15784375,"end":28404.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28405.161593750003,"end":28407.287843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28408.047218749998,"end":28413.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28413.98721875,"end":28417.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28418.357843750004,"end":28419.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28419.89346875,"end":28420.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28421.294093750003,"end":28421.969093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28422.660968750002,"end":28424.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28424.888468750003,"end":28426.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28426.559093750002,"end":28428.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28428.719093749998,"end":28431.351593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28432.060343750003,"end":28439.232218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28439.957843750002,"end":28449.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28449.171593750005,"end":28451.584718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28451.97284375,"end":28452.968468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28453.12034375,"end":28454.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28454.50409375,"end":28457.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28457.87909375,"end":28458.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28459.76909375,"end":28463.937218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28464.426593750002,"end":28472.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28472.91471875,"end":28474.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28474.585343750005,"end":28476.154718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28476.84659375,"end":28478.264093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28479.293468750002,"end":28486.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28487.427218750003,"end":28489.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28489.958468750003,"end":28492.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28492.945343749998,"end":28495.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28495.93221875,"end":28496.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28496.927843750003,"end":28498.935968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28499.577218750004,"end":28500.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28501.990343750003,"end":28503.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28503.880343750003,"end":28504.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28505.83784375,"end":28508.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28508.554718749998,"end":28509.702218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28509.820343749998,"end":28510.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28511.96346875,"end":28514.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28514.47784375,"end":28515.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28516.16534375,"end":28516.755968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28517.34659375,"end":28518.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28519.506593750004,"end":28521.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28521.36284375,"end":28522.037843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28522.30784375,"end":28523.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28524.61971875,"end":28534.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28535.48721875,"end":28536.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28537.225343750004,"end":28539.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28540.077218750004,"end":28541.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28542.270968750003,"end":28543.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28544.22846875,"end":28547.350343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28547.50221875,"end":28552.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28552.429718749998,"end":28553.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28553.779718750004,"end":28554.420968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28555.230968750002,"end":28557.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28558.48784375,"end":28560.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28561.50846875,"end":28566.638468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28567.43159375,"end":28568.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28568.629718750002,"end":28570.030343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28570.637843750003,"end":28572.764093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28573.21971875,"end":28574.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28575.97034375,"end":28578.788468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28579.514093750004,"end":28581.944093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28582.61909375,"end":28583.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28583.952218750004,"end":28584.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28584.593468750005,"end":28586.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28586.989718750003,"end":28587.867218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28587.968468750005,"end":28588.052843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28588.170968750004,"end":28593.030968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28593.233468750004,"end":28597.418468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28598.262218750002,"end":28602.902843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28603.560968750004,"end":28604.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28604.404718750004,"end":28605.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28606.15971875,"end":28607.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28607.897843750005,"end":28609.686593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28610.969093749998,"end":28612.015343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28612.69034375,"end":28613.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28614.428468750004,"end":28617.482843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28618.05659375,"end":28622.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28622.71409375,"end":28623.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28624.739093750002,"end":28626.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28627.65846875,"end":28628.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28628.38409375,"end":28629.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28630.155968750005,"end":28631.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28632.788468750005,"end":28636.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28636.75409375,"end":28638.914093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28639.335968749998,"end":28642.491593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28643.217218750004,"end":28643.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28643.757218750005,"end":28644.584093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28645.05659375,"end":28646.693468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28647.36846875,"end":28653.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28653.61221875,"end":28655.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28656.278468750003,"end":28659.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28659.92346875,"end":28661.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28661.374718750005,"end":28664.209718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28666.082843750002,"end":28666.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28666.97721875,"end":28667.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28667.078468749998,"end":28669.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28669.96409375,"end":28670.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28670.301593750002,"end":28671.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28672.427843750003,"end":28675.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28676.79846875,"end":28678.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28679.34659375,"end":28680.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28681.084718750004,"end":28683.514718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28683.98721875,"end":28685.303468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28685.69159375,"end":28689.944093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28690.686593750004,"end":28693.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28693.48784375,"end":28695.107843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28696.609718749998,"end":28704.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28705.38471875,"end":28706.295968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28706.65034375,"end":28709.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28710.43034375,"end":28711.341593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28711.83096875,"end":28714.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28714.54784375,"end":28715.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28717.163468750005,"end":28720.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":28720.605968750002,"end":28722.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":28725.31409375,"end":28731.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28732.78971875,"end":28732.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28732.82346875,"end":28744.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28745.02409375,"end":28760.414093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28760.56596875,"end":28761.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28762.45596875,"end":28771.652843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28772.513468750003,"end":28778.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28778.80784375,"end":28788.004718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28788.105968750002,"end":28794.265343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28794.906593749998,"end":28800.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28801.420343750004,"end":28805.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28806.904718750004,"end":28824.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28825.19721875,"end":28858.997843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28859.234093750005,"end":28863.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28863.554093750005,"end":28880.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28881.070343749998,"end":28895.717843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28895.937218750005,"end":28910.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28910.75346875,"end":28911.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28912.66034375,"end":28934.749718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28935.053468750004,"end":28943.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28943.710343750005,"end":28946.342843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28946.545343750004,"end":28948.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28949.684093750002,"end":28958.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28959.13409375,"end":28982.219093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":28982.57346875,"end":28993.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":28994.217218750004,"end":28996.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":29003.32971875,"end":29027.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":29028.203468749998,"end":29033.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":29034.059093750002,"end":29057.397218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":29057.54909375,"end":29058.544718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":29060.046593750005,"end":29065.109093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":29065.66596875,"end":29071.217843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":29071.825343750003,"end":29105.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":29088.54846875,"end":29088.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29088.97034375,"end":29089.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29089.257218750005,"end":29090.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":29105.895968750003,"end":29121.302843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":29121.859718749998,"end":29169.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":29169.801593750002,"end":29201.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":29201.40846875,"end":29233.015343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29233.757843749998,"end":29235.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29236.52534375,"end":29240.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29240.33909375,"end":29242.094093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29242.34721875,"end":29242.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29245.131593750004,"end":29246.819093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29246.98784375,"end":29250.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29250.396593750003,"end":29251.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29251.662218750003,"end":29252.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29252.927843750003,"end":29259.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29259.998468750004,"end":29261.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29261.162843750004,"end":29264.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29265.11159375,"end":29266.242218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29267.271593750003,"end":29272.317218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29273.279093750003,"end":29273.937218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29275.97909375,"end":29277.801593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29278.679093750005,"end":29280.872843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29281.176593750002,"end":29289.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29291.234093750005,"end":29299.215968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29299.536593750003,"end":29302.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29303.41784375,"end":29313.390968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29313.897218750004,"end":29315.483468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29316.17534375,"end":29326.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29326.418468750002,"end":29333.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29333.79284375,"end":29334.349718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29335.277843750002,"end":29340.374093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29340.96471875,"end":29342.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29343.293468750002,"end":29347.022843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29347.78221875,"end":29348.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29348.912843750004,"end":29351.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29351.646593750003,"end":29357.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29357.974718750003,"end":29369.179718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29370.39471875,"end":29371.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29371.694093750004,"end":29373.820343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29374.107218750003,"end":29378.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29378.781593749998,"end":29384.772218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29385.497843750003,"end":29400.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29400.55034375,"end":29405.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29406.186593750004,"end":29407.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29407.78971875,"end":29410.844093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29411.687843749998,"end":29412.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29413.42596875,"end":29416.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29416.98659375,"end":29419.990343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29420.969093749998,"end":29424.327218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29424.614093750002,"end":29425.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29426.57159375,"end":29434.013468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29435.093468750005,"end":29438.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29439.480968750002,"end":29442.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29442.231593750003,"end":29442.771593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29443.109093750005,"end":29444.897843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29445.404093750003,"end":29447.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29448.374093750004,"end":29453.115968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29453.453468749998,"end":29461.232843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29461.80659375,"end":29467.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29467.982843750004,"end":29472.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29473.11284375,"end":29473.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29474.125343749998,"end":29478.850343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29479.66034375,"end":29482.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29482.91721875,"end":29485.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29485.31346875,"end":29485.397843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":29485.397843750005,"end":29486.022218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29486.022218750004,"end":29486.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29487.11909375,"end":29501.648468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29502.18846875,"end":29507.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29508.55034375,"end":29512.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29512.85346875,"end":29515.350968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29515.50284375,"end":29520.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29521.223468750002,"end":29523.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29523.94034375,"end":29525.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29525.982218750003,"end":29538.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29538.452843750005,"end":29543.616593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29543.88659375,"end":29547.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29548.08846875,"end":29548.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29548.69596875,"end":29552.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29552.543468750002,"end":29553.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29554.29846875,"end":29556.998468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29557.184093750002,"end":29560.474718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29560.52534375,"end":29576.927843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29577.21471875,"end":29578.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29578.919093750003,"end":29581.686593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29581.787843750004,"end":29583.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29583.812843749998,"end":29596.874093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":29597.11034375,"end":29598.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":29599.13534375,"end":29605.176593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29606.172218749998,"end":29612.75346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":29611.302218750003,"end":29625.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29617.731593750003,"end":29619.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29625.08909375,"end":29629.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":29627.569718750005,"end":29628.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29629.40909375,"end":29638.099718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":29629.442843750003,"end":29633.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":29633.10471875,"end":29633.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":29633.94846875,"end":29636.850968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":29636.850968750005,"end":29636.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29636.918468750002,"end":29636.935343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":29639.500343749998,"end":29681.451593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":29681.83971875,"end":29704.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":29704.92471875,"end":29713.952843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":29714.155343750004,"end":29716.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":29716.973468750002,"end":29732.599718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":29733.021593750003,"end":29772.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":29772.61034375,"end":29823.404093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":29823.809093750002,"end":29826.475343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":29826.82971875,"end":29854.757843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":29854.825343750003,"end":29882.449718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29884.33971875,"end":29885.740343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":29886.61784375,"end":29888.389718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29895.62909375,"end":29898.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29899.18971875,"end":29900.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29900.96159375,"end":29912.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29912.77409375,"end":29914.562843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29916.014093750004,"end":29917.060343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29917.499093750004,"end":29919.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29919.96284375,"end":29921.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29924.28284375,"end":29927.640968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29928.467843750004,"end":29929.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29931.437843749998,"end":29932.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29933.496593750002,"end":29934.070343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29934.44159375,"end":29935.099718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29935.38659375,"end":29936.483468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":29937.56346875,"end":29937.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29937.58034375,"end":29938.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29938.356593750003,"end":29939.132843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29939.80784375,"end":29940.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29941.326593750004,"end":29943.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29944.56659375,"end":29946.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29946.32159375,"end":29947.350968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29948.059718750003,"end":29948.937218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29950.54034375,"end":29950.844093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29951.535968750002,"end":29953.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29954.100968750005,"end":29958.302843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29959.163468750005,"end":29960.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29961.694718750005,"end":29963.044718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29963.466593750003,"end":29964.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29965.40721875,"end":29966.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29967.63471875,"end":29969.710343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29969.87909375,"end":29972.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29973.11909375,"end":29976.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29977.725968750005,"end":29979.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29980.20659375,"end":29981.084093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29981.742218749998,"end":29982.450968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29982.889718750004,"end":29983.834718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29985.285968750002,"end":29991.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29992.390343750005,"end":29993.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29994.921593750005,"end":29996.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29996.54159375,"end":29997.840968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":29998.43159375,"end":29999.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30000.389093750004,"end":30007.780343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30008.87721875,"end":30009.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30009.771593750003,"end":30012.741593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30013.889093750004,"end":30015.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30016.504718750002,"end":30018.428468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30018.90096875,"end":30020.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30020.655968750005,"end":30022.225343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30023.271593750003,"end":30027.507218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30028.90784375,"end":30030.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30031.202843750005,"end":30032.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30032.670968750004,"end":30033.615968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30033.919718750003,"end":30035.421593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30036.552218750003,"end":30037.834718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30038.357843750004,"end":30039.218468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30040.11284375,"end":30041.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30042.340343750002,"end":30043.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30044.061593750004,"end":30048.702218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30049.343468750005,"end":30050.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30051.99284375,"end":30053.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30054.794093750003,"end":30055.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30056.14409375,"end":30058.489718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30059.552843750003,"end":30060.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30061.476593749998,"end":30061.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30062.15159375,"end":30064.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30065.172218749998,"end":30068.732843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30069.374093750004,"end":30070.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30070.70721875,"end":30072.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30072.66471875,"end":30076.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30077.153468750003,"end":30078.773468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30079.31346875,"end":30080.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30081.32159375,"end":30090.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30090.552218750003,"end":30094.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30095.614718750003,"end":30096.154718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30096.94784375,"end":30101.115968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30102.179093750005,"end":30109.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30109.890968749998,"end":30111.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30111.89909375,"end":30113.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30114.531593749998,"end":30118.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30118.733468750004,"end":30120.522218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30120.99471875,"end":30121.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30121.872218750003,"end":30124.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30126.79971875,"end":30129.719093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30131.00159375,"end":30133.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30134.460968749998,"end":30137.194718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30138.19034375,"end":30141.092843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30141.54846875,"end":30142.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30143.13471875,"end":30144.366593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30144.82221875,"end":30145.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30146.374718750005,"end":30147.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30147.99471875,"end":30149.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30149.68221875,"end":30152.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30152.85471875,"end":30153.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30153.968468750005,"end":30155.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30156.398468749998,"end":30158.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30159.014093750004,"end":30160.515968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30161.41034375,"end":30163.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30164.262218750002,"end":30164.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30164.97096875,"end":30164.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30165.460343750005,"end":30168.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30170.202218750004,"end":30174.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30175.18034375,"end":30176.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30177.40784375,"end":30179.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30179.989718750003,"end":30180.765968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30181.356593750003,"end":30182.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30182.335343750005,"end":30184.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30184.59659375,"end":30186.351593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30187.14471875,"end":30189.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30189.65909375,"end":30190.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30191.21159375,"end":30194.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30195.734093750005,"end":30196.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30197.13471875,"end":30198.349718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30199.294718750003,"end":30199.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30200.18909375,"end":30201.606593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30202.484093750005,"end":30204.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30204.880343750003,"end":30205.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30207.867218749998,"end":30209.757218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30210.465968750003,"end":30211.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30212.10284375,"end":30214.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30215.039093749998,"end":30217.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30217.92471875,"end":30219.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30220.489718750003,"end":30223.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30224.320343749998,"end":30226.294718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30226.750343749998,"end":30228.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30229.18034375,"end":30230.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30230.496593750002,"end":30233.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30234.833468750003,"end":30235.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30236.217218750004,"end":30237.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30238.326593750004,"end":30240.115343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30240.435968750004,"end":30241.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30241.98846875,"end":30242.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30243.085343750005,"end":30244.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30245.54909375,"end":30248.265968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30249.98721875,"end":30251.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30251.99534375,"end":30253.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30254.52659375,"end":30255.539093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30255.724718750003,"end":30256.585343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30257.68221875,"end":30258.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30257.715968750003,"end":30258.154718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30258.94784375,"end":30259.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30260.871593750002,"end":30261.749093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30262.72784375,"end":30263.115968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30263.537843750004,"end":30267.857843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30267.959093750003,"end":30269.967218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30270.74346875,"end":30271.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30271.772843750005,"end":30278.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30278.89409375,"end":30281.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30281.84721875,"end":30284.327843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30284.78346875,"end":30285.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30286.116593750005,"end":30287.162843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30288.225968750005,"end":30289.812218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30290.48721875,"end":30291.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30291.95534375,"end":30292.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30293.22096875,"end":30294.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30294.90846875,"end":30295.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30296.359718749998,"end":30297.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30298.30034375,"end":30299.262218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30300.51096875,"end":30301.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30302.755343750003,"end":30303.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30303.835343750005,"end":30305.404718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30306.569093750004,"end":30309.809093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30309.97784375,"end":30310.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30310.09596875,"end":30321.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30321.92534375,"end":30325.435343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30325.72221875,"end":30385.459718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30386.15159375,"end":30388.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30389.020343750002,"end":30390.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30391.905968750005,"end":30394.639718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30394.77471875,"end":30415.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30414.70409375,"end":30421.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30421.926593750002,"end":30426.921593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":30426.921593750005,"end":30427.950968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30427.225343750004,"end":30430.296593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":30431.37659375,"end":30432.827843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30431.68034375,"end":30436.304093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30432.827843750005,"end":30432.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":30432.895343750002,"end":30433.047218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30433.047218749998,"end":30437.468468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30437.60346875,"end":30442.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30437.957843750002,"end":30440.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30443.50971875,"end":30454.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30443.74596875,"end":30444.623468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30455.187218750005,"end":30456.132218750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30456.38534375,"end":30467.219093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30458.224718750003,"end":30458.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30467.47221875,"end":30473.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30468.569093750004,"end":30470.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30470.84721875,"end":30472.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30473.46284375,"end":30486.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30474.84659375,"end":30475.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":30475.06596875,"end":30475.116593750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30475.116593750005,"end":30475.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":30475.184093750002,"end":30475.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30483.537218750003,"end":30485.444093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30486.574718750002,"end":30492.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30486.625343749998,"end":30487.047218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30487.58721875,"end":30488.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30488.97096875,"end":30490.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30490.03409375,"end":30496.109093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":30492.97034375,"end":30496.193468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30496.193468750003,"end":30496.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":30496.24409375,"end":30496.412843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":30496.530968750005,"end":30504.428468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30496.68284375,"end":30499.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30499.973468750002,"end":30500.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30500.46284375,"end":30500.530343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30500.530343750004,"end":30500.547218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30502.16721875,"end":30503.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":30505.052843750003,"end":30505.289093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30505.289093749998,"end":30505.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":30505.30596875,"end":30505.896593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30505.32284375,"end":30509.271593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":30507.01034375,"end":30516.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30509.271593750003,"end":30509.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30509.794718750003,"end":30521.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30516.966593750003,"end":30517.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":30517.15221875,"end":30517.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30517.47284375,"end":30520.375343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30520.544093750003,"end":30520.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30520.61159375,"end":30520.679093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30521.35409375,"end":30521.826593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30522.82221875,"end":30530.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30527.34471875,"end":30529.217843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30529.842218750004,"end":30533.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30531.293468750002,"end":30531.310343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30534.482843750004,"end":30539.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30539.47784375,"end":30540.169718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30540.169718750003,"end":30542.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30540.52409375,"end":30542.397218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30542.397218750004,"end":30542.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30542.44784375,"end":30543.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30543.426593750002,"end":30543.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30543.747218750003,"end":30543.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30543.966593750003,"end":30544.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30544.03409375,"end":30545.029718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30545.249093750004,"end":30545.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30545.28284375,"end":30545.333468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30545.333468750003,"end":30545.974718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30545.974718750003,"end":30546.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30546.64971875,"end":30546.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30546.97034375,"end":30548.100968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30547.155968750005,"end":30547.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30547.17284375,"end":30550.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":30548.100968750005,"end":30549.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30550.615343750003,"end":30555.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":30553.349093750003,"end":30553.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30553.83846875,"end":30554.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30555.036593750003,"end":30555.593468750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30555.593468750005,"end":30555.779093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30555.779093750003,"end":30560.031593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30559.01909375,"end":30559.592843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30560.031593749998,"end":30561.060968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30560.639093750004,"end":30561.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30561.44909375,"end":30568.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30561.53346875,"end":30563.085968749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30565.397843750005,"end":30565.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":30565.43159375,"end":30565.600343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30565.600343750004,"end":30565.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30566.27534375,"end":30581.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30568.80659375,"end":30569.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30570.966593750003,"end":30572.552843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30573.22784375,"end":30574.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30578.07096875,"end":30583.015343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30583.420343750004,"end":30586.390343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30584.787218750003,"end":30584.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30587.68971875,"end":30588.162218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30588.162218750003,"end":30588.179093750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30591.739718750003,"end":30603.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30591.92534375,"end":30591.975968750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30591.975968750005,"end":30593.039093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30593.039093749998,"end":30593.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30603.19784375,"end":30604.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30604.412843750004,"end":30605.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":30610.639718750004,"end":30610.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":30610.97721875,"end":30611.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":30611.97284375,"end":30612.023468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":30612.090968750003,"end":30612.344093749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30613.255343750003,"end":30620.646593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30616.090343750002,"end":30616.967843750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30621.203468749998,"end":30622.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30623.75159375,"end":30628.139093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30625.03409375,"end":30625.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30625.590968750003,"end":30625.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30625.96221875,"end":30628.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30629.23596875,"end":30629.624093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30630.906593749998,"end":30634.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30631.935968750004,"end":30632.037218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30632.037218750003,"end":30633.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30633.25221875,"end":30633.302843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30633.302843750003,"end":30633.420968750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30634.450343750003,"end":30644.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30637.403468750003,"end":30639.445343749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30642.09471875,"end":30642.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":30642.44909375,"end":30645.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30644.474093750003,"end":30647.545343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":30646.73534375,"end":30654.835343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30651.527843750002,"end":30651.966593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30654.818468750003,"end":30666.124718750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":30655.84784375,"end":30656.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":30657.771593750003,"end":30660.927218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30660.927218750003,"end":30661.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":30661.39971875,"end":30661.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30661.41659375,"end":30661.703468749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30663.08721875,"end":30663.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30663.12096875,"end":30663.897218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30663.897218750004,"end":30664.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30664.77471875,"end":30667.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30666.124718750005,"end":30666.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30668.50409375,"end":30668.976593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30668.976593749998,"end":30669.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30670.03971875,"end":30674.967218750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":30671.62596875,"end":30671.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30671.65971875,"end":30673.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30673.02659375,"end":30675.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":30674.967218750004,"end":30678.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30675.54096875,"end":30675.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30675.96284375,"end":30676.030343750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30676.030343750004,"end":30677.498468750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30678.747218750003,"end":30682.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":30680.38409375,"end":30680.552843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":30680.552843750003,"end":30680.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":30680.92409375,"end":30681.514718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30682.49346875,"end":30683.590343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30684.07971875,"end":30685.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":30684.09659375,"end":30685.514093750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30686.357843750004,"end":30692.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30693.07409375,"end":30706.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30707.19846875,"end":30708.531593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30708.58221875,"end":30710.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30711.164093749998,"end":30712.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30712.44659375,"end":30714.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30714.25221875,"end":30720.867218749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30721.12034375,"end":30723.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30724.022843750005,"end":30734.654093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30736.40909375,"end":30738.484718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30738.771593750003,"end":30740.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30741.302843750003,"end":30744.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30745.200968750003,"end":30755.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":30755.71409375,"end":30780.115343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30778.124093750004,"end":30779.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30779.254718750002,"end":30779.271593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30779.271593750003,"end":30779.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30779.30534375,"end":30779.507843749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30779.507843749998,"end":30779.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30780.030968750005,"end":30780.756593750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30780.773468749998,"end":30792.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30784.215968750003,"end":30784.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30784.28346875,"end":30784.334093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":30784.334093750003,"end":30785.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30785.97096875,"end":30787.202843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30789.919718750003,"end":30790.054718749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30790.29096875,"end":30790.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30790.39221875,"end":30791.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30791.421593750005,"end":30792.029093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":30792.029093750003,"end":30792.265343750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30792.72096875,"end":30794.543468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30792.771593750003,"end":30792.872843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":30792.872843750003,"end":30792.889718750004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":30792.889718750004,"end":30792.906593749998},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":30792.906593749998,"end":30793.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30795.13409375,"end":30799.521593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":30795.707843750002,"end":30800.702843750005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30800.702843750005,"end":30804.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":30801.293468750002,"end":30807.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30805.37721875,"end":30808.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":30807.942218750002,"end":30811.418468750002}],"whisperx":[{"start":1480.407,"end":1500.939,"text":"報告委員會初席委員9人以組法定人數請主席宣布開會好現在開會進行報告事項宣讀上次會議議事錄立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第16次全體委員會議議事錄實現中華民國113年4月24日星期三上午9時1分至12時18分地點本院紅樓302會議室初席委員黃委員國昌等12人"},{"start":1505.481,"end":1522.929,"text":"列席委員黃文珊珊等10人列席官員司法院秘書長吳三龍等人主席中召集委員嘉賓報告事項一、宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定二、邀請司法院秘書長、法務部部長率所屬相關單位列席就如何透過行政簡化、訴訟減量與科技運用"},{"start":1525.07,"end":1546.2,"text":"以降低基層司法體系負擔之成效與精進其成,進行專題報告並備質詢。本次會委員審發會等14人提出質詢。委員傅坤祺提出書面質詢。決定依報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答覆者請相關機關緊速送交個別委員及本會。宣讀完畢。請問各位,上次會議議事錄有錯或遺漏?"},{"start":1552.213,"end":1572.211,"text":"沒有的話我們一速確定接著介紹道場委員及應邀列席官員先介紹在場委員我們歡迎羅委員志強謝謝歡迎莊委員瑞熊省委員發慧陳委員俊宇以及在門邊的我們柯委員建銘好那接下來介紹應邀列席官員"},{"start":1573.96,"end":1602.6,"text":"我們介紹立法院秘書長周萬南秘書長歡迎您我們張玉榮副秘書長歡迎您好那其餘未及介紹的列席代表請參院名單不再逐一介紹並列入公報記錄好那本次議程我們討論四項我們就是繼續審查國會改革系列方案有關立法院組織法、立法委員行為法、立法院議事規則與立法院職權行使法"},{"start":1603.24,"end":1628.898,"text":"那民進黨黨團及各提案委員擬具之修正條文草案。好那我們繼續之前呢尚未進行完畢的提案說明及報告先進行委員的提案說明發言時間三分鐘我會請在場的提案委員進行說明那因為在場有包括范雲委員包括羅志強委員羅委員要不要先因為范雲委員剛進來啊讓他喘口氣"},{"start":1632.23,"end":1640.719,"text":"案案委員準備好了,我們就請你做提案說明了。好,那我們先因為今天有幾個提案,我們就先邀請提案人范韻委員進行提案說明,謝謝。時間三分鐘。"},{"start":1646.993,"end":1649.033,"text":"三）委員賴瑞隆等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":1672.378,"end":1696.5,"text":"職場及任何場域的性騷擾防治調查及懲處都能更加完善。可是我卻發現,我們立法院非常諷刺。我們自己立法,但是卻是MeToo改革的一個漏洞。因為《性別平等工作法》的規定中,如果職場的性騷擾屬實,"},{"start":1698.642,"end":1702.466,"text":"顧主必須給予行為人適當的懲戒或處理,"},{"start":1704.209,"end":1729.546,"text":"但是性騷防治法也規定受害者可以向行為人所屬機關提出申訴行為人所屬機關應該調查並提供主管機關的處理建議可是因為立委跟立委之間不是僱傭關係也不是從屬關係所以如果立法委員出現了性騷擾或者性別歧視言行的話立法院無從約束也沒有調查的權限"},{"start":1731.046,"end":1749.193,"text":"立法院作為立委、還有助理、公務員、職工、記者、民間團體進出工作的職場,立委是裡面權力最大的,立法院缺乏一個自律機制,沒有辦法保護在立法院工作的相關人員,免於立委的性騷擾。"},{"start":1755.189,"end":1772.483,"text":"義無權處理立委之間的性騷擾,真的是性騷擾防制的一大漏洞。事實上,過去立法院性騷擾跟性別歧視頻傳,比如說在國會殿堂有公然性騷擾,在一場攻防的時候把手伸進一行為的褲帶等。"},{"start":1773.764,"end":1799.311,"text":"為了補上這個漏洞,我的《立法委員行為法》在第七條增訂,立法委員不得有性騷擾或性別歧視之言辭或行為若有違反者,送交立法院紀律委員會並由紀律委員會邀請有性別意識的調查專家外部專家進行調查,做成調查報告及處理建議"},{"start":1801.083,"end":1822.648,"text":"懲處方式包含口頭或書面報告,停止出席院會,停權一定時間等處分。我想立法委員作為立法的一個重要的機制跟代表,拒絕新遭立委是我們的責任,也是我們對全國人民應該做的,那更是國會改革不可或缺的一彎。"},{"start":1823.448,"end":1848.437,"text":"那謝謝司法法制委員會排審那希望我們能夠補上這個性騷跟性別平等的漏洞不再寬容立法院的性騷那也希望各黨跨黨派支持國會的性別改革法案謝謝好謝謝我們范委員的提案說明那接下來請提案人羅委員志強進行提案說明時間三分鐘請"},{"start":1861.541,"end":1887.377,"text":"主席還有大家好其實這段時間擔任立法委員我就發現說我們立法委員真的還有蠻多的議事的一個程序跟規則除了說剛剛我們講前面我們在討論很熱烈的國會改革無法以外事實上很多的議事的一些規則那最近我有很多的體會所以我接下來都會做很多一些關於議事規則的一些"},{"start":1888.758,"end":1888.878,"text":"草案案。"},{"start":1907.25,"end":1928.777,"text":"那因為我自己經常到各種不同委員會去質詢那也包括總質詢的時候質詢的陳建仁院長我就發現我們這個立法委員真的好像小媳婦一樣為什麼呢我要資料那個要資料都有很困難然後連質詢台上去質詢經常就會遭到反質詢的一個所謂的干擾"},{"start":1929.597,"end":1935.147,"text":"那比方陳建仁院長最常用的口頭禪就是當我們在講話的時候就講說你不專業你這樣子是不正確你不科學對不對你是錯的對不對"},{"start":1940.598,"end":1961.886,"text":"委員問題都還沒出來就開始不斷地打斷干擾那過去我有跟幾個官員在質詢的過程當中也發現他就不斷地反問我問題啊明明是我問他他突然化身成立法委員反過來問我所以因此今天我們在這個修法的部分的話我希望能夠在那個職權行使法裡面的第25條"},{"start":1963.266,"end":1984.453,"text":"能夠增加所謂的質詢的答覆不得超過質詢範圍之外再加一句就是不得反質詢那如果說違反這個所謂的反質詢的這種狀況的話主席得予制止經制止無效就可以另起離開會場那這當然只是一個才事的一個狀況比方舉個例子之前我們吳宗憲委員在這個質詢台上在質詢我們的準勞動部長何佩珊"},{"start":1991.355,"end":2020.184,"text":"他當時是行政院的副秘書長你就會發現一件事情就是今天吳宗憲委員在質詢的時候那何佩珊就是在答詢台上干擾那吳宗憲委員就說我不要再質詢你了可以請你下台連主席都裁示他下台他還霸著質詢台不走所以在凡此種種的一些意識的亂象我覺得都應該要在這一次我們新國會大家一起努力的來改正"},{"start":2020.764,"end":2038.852,"text":"案,因此我提出這個所謂的不得反質詢的這個修正案,那當然一方面有三個目標,一個就是符合我們憲法上賦予立法委員質詢權來捍衛我們的質詢權的一個行使,那第二個就是能夠約束官員,能夠好好的來去"},{"start":2041.413,"end":2044.315,"text":"接受民意的監督,不要用反質詢來干擾議事。」"},{"start":2065.387,"end":2086.996,"text":"好謝謝剛剛羅志祥委員所做的提案說明是進行立法委員職權行使法在今天會議當中列為第一次討論案的第六個案子那因為那是剛過了夫夷期所以我們主席把他排了進來那接下來呢有高金素梅委員他的提案分別有立法院組織法"},{"start":2088.798,"end":2099.436,"text":"那麼這立法院組織法當中的在場委員提案委員我詢問一下有沒有要幫忙高金委員做提案說明的包括有羅志強委員有沒有要就本案來幫忙做說明沒有好"},{"start":2102.435,"end":2129.059,"text":"那另外主席也在這裡詢問提案人包括賴瑞隆委員所提的三個案子那分別有在場委員有進行連署的我也請教來主委來詢問包括我們在立法委員行為法當中陳俊宇委員有沒有幫忙待會提案說明有請時間三分鐘"},{"start":2136.633,"end":2159.17,"text":"好謝謝主席那在場各位委員各位官員大家好那我們針對本條文是為了要推動我們國會改革強化國會的議員專業的這種立法問政的能力那提升優質民主代議事的形象強化我們資訊揭露落實秘密會議保密的機制"},{"start":2160.231,"end":2166.215,"text":"因應強化立法委員能夠行使法定職權行為的規範並健全其利益迴避的機制。"},{"start":2173.007,"end":2193.093,"text":"內容我們參酌公職人員選舉罷免法、公職人員利益衝突迴避法以及公務員服務法等相關法令就立法委員關係人的範圍界定秘密會議未遵守保密規定的法律效果兩岸交流的資訊透明化等事項"},{"start":2194.442,"end":2201.653,"text":"徵修規範以強化行使職權以利益迴避來建立優質的國會。當然這個內容實質的內容我們對於修正的這個內容"},{"start":2208.939,"end":2227.173,"text":"在第十條裡面參加這個秘密會議的立法委員以及列席的人員及本院的員工等均應竊竭這個保密協議並禁止攜帶任何的通訊產品進入,拒絕竊竊者不得參加秘密會議。"},{"start":2228.354,"end":2256.754,"text":"曾參加立法院秘密會議的立法委員其本人及其關係人於任期中或聘僱關係程序期間前往中國及港澳地區應向立法院報備並於網站公開其報備方式由立法院定之違反前兩項規定紀律委員會應立即調查必要時提報院會予以停權並移送司法機關來調查"},{"start":2258.235,"end":2270.952,"text":"我相信這個修訂本法是為了要確保我們立法院相關會議的內容不被洩密那也在此我們希望說能夠透過這個修法應該要確實來要求所有"},{"start":2275.658,"end":2287.828,"text":"案、出席相關會議的這些人員一定要落實本法這樣子才能夠確保我們國家的安全也能夠讓我們所有的會議在進行過程裡面不被這個內容這個"},{"start":2290.538,"end":2293.56,"text":"案案,並扑露出去,避免衍生不必要的問題。」"},{"start":2307.176,"end":2332.6,"text":"好接下來有賴瑞隆委員提案的立法院議事規則的修正草案那麼共同提案人有包括審判委員在場的還有范雲委員請問兩位委員有沒有帶回說明沒有好接下來我們賴瑞隆委員有提案立法院組織法的修正草案那提案人當中在場有沈伯陽委員有沒有要帶回提案有請時間三分鐘"},{"start":2340.968,"end":2359.466,"text":"這個提案最主要是在說明參與秘密會議的一個規則大家都知道我們在立法院有很多各式各樣的秘密會議參與秘密會議的時候他必須要簽保密協定當然如果沒有辦法簽的話照理說應該是不能夠參與秘密會議所以這是一個非常簡單的規範"},{"start":2360.767,"end":2381.539,"text":"但其實這樣的規範遠遠不足很重要的一個原因是因為目前我們任何的國家安全相關的法令都是在規定每一個部門他們的一個保密的義務但是大家卻可能沒有注意到立法委員能夠接觸的機密理論上是最多的如果說今天中國他滲透了譬如說陸委會的其中一個部門的某一個職員"},{"start":2382.64,"end":2403.22,"text":"那他就只能得到這一個部門相關的秘密資料但立法委員不一樣嘛因為立法委員可以跟各個單位去索資所以理論上他能夠得到的情報根據不同的議題是最全面的但是我們現在對於立法委員的這一個保密相關的規定呢其實是非常非常的鬆散所以呢除了在這個行為法"},{"start":2404.881,"end":2430.332,"text":"還有除了在職權行使法之外還有很多的小的這種規則其實都應該一併的修訂那非常遺憾的事情就是如果我們今天只是修訂這些規則那很多人還是不遵守或者用各式各樣的方式把這樣的秘密從這個機密會議代理的話還是能夠造成國安的危機所以非常重要的事情就是除了他的行為本身的規範之外他的接觸的對象其實也應該要規範"},{"start":2431.613,"end":2458.423,"text":"案,意思就是說呢,譬如說以中國的黨政軍,就是說這個反滲透法所謂的這個滲透來源,如果今天立法委員跟這些人有接觸的時候呢,其實他應該予以規範。那國人可能很擔心的是說,那這樣的話呢,立法委員以後是不是都沒有自由了,見中國的這些黨政軍,難道見了以後都要被處罰嗎?那顯然呢,這樣的疑慮呢,就表示對於這些相關的修正呢,並沒有看清楚條文。"},{"start":2459.503,"end":2478.525,"text":"之前我們提出來相關的這個修正指的是說如果他今天遇到中國的黨政軍的狀況的時候他必須要揭露也就是說讓我們知道你是一個長期接觸各個不同機密的人然後你見了中國的黨政軍這個必須要揭露是不揭露才會有問題"},{"start":2479.566,"end":2503.392,"text":"並不是說我今天只要見了中國的誰誰誰然後我就要去坐牢。絕對沒有像那個藐視國會這麼誇張。所以呢請大家要注意的事情就是他從秘密會議本身的規範還有他簽了之後呢到底能不能夠參與。到參與了之後呢譬如說他不能夠超錄啦錄音的設備啦甚至擴音的設備因為我們有一些委員講話很大聲然後大聲到外面的那個窗戶外面都聽得到啊"},{"start":2503.832,"end":2528.519,"text":"那這樣的話也是可以把機密傳出去嘛然後再接下來是他去特定的國家以及他見特定的人員這些全部都應該要一體的規範所以呢今天我們這一個提案只是所有的這些規範的一小部分那很遺憾的事情呢這整體的規範甚至有一些是我提出的在程序委員會就被國民黨跟民眾黨聯手封殺所以呢我們並沒有辦法把完整的規範帶到這邊委員會討論甚感可惜啦那我發言到這邊謝謝"},{"start":2532.639,"end":2554.019,"text":"好,謝謝沈委員待會做提案說明。沈委員可以在前面,我們今天有巡打,如果要登記發言的話在前面。好,那麼因為今天的提案說明呢,已經有請在場委員參與提案的委員進行說明完畢。接下來請機關代表報告。來,我們請立法院周秘書長報告。好,發言時間3分鐘。"},{"start":2560.325,"end":2584.125,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生、大家好。今天奉邀列席貴委員會全體委員會議深感榮幸。針對今日議程所提議案,立法院執行司法修正草案部分要以本年4月18日第14次全體委員會議報告完畢,及立法院組織法修正草案涉及院長、副院長選舉改裁記名投票部分,"},{"start":2585.026,"end":2596.925,"text":"以於本年4月1日第11次全體委員會議列席報告說明不再重複以外,針對立法院組織法、立法院行文法以及議事規則的修正部分,僅"},{"start":2601.611,"end":2628.502,"text":"說明如下進行參考第一立法院組織法修正草案第一強化秘密會議規範目前立法院有關秘密會議事項包括秘密會議應如何進行及其應遵守事項本院議事規則第八章以及立法院秘密會議注意事項均有相當規範委員提案你申訂立法院委員出席秘密會議應切結保密協議並禁止攜帶任何通訊產品"},{"start":2631.233,"end":2655.219,"text":"國會治理事項、尊重委員合一決定。二、強化國會資通安全專業幕僚亮能及國會擴建簽件案。依現行資通安全管理法第11條規定本院已由副民事長兼任資通安全長另查各院系由諮詢室負責資通安全事項。本院諮詢室目前"},{"start":2657.767,"end":2673.957,"text":"業務亦涵蓋自動安全工作與其他各院作法相同,適合於本院組織法中特於明定副秘書長兼任自動安全長並徵涉自動安全事以及聯員配置上派委員橫走決定有關徵定"},{"start":2674.577,"end":2689.467,"text":"法治局預算中心得聘用具教育聯員任用資格者及本院簽證擴建委等問題,善待委員凝聚共識,尊重委員合意決定。第三,修正委員會用協助及公會助理相關制度,委員提案擬增訂,補助為委員應選區。"},{"start":2692.569,"end":2704.849,"text":"特殊因素產生之交通、住宿等不便會用、公會助理資格條件及待遇、福利等比照約聘顧連年並以法制化。請參照所附的比較表徵訂"},{"start":2707.501,"end":2721.794,"text":"據原住民身份立委不受其所屬政黨參加黨團之限制而成立原住民族政團等節尊重委員之立法政策決定,立法院行為法修正草案依健全利益迴避機制委員提案擬擴大"},{"start":2723.436,"end":2751.315,"text":"立法委員關係聯範圍修正利益定義及利益迴避原則查現行除了立法委員行為瓦解公職聯緣利益衝突迴避法及遊說法均有明文令參佐各國外國立法律對於利益的定義認定範圍及利益迴避方式各有不同、詳盡、互介入的比較表。是我分組立法委員,屬民意代表是特性,另為特別規範,屬於立法政策是選擇,尊重委員合意決定。兩案交"},{"start":2752.416,"end":2767.838,"text":"兩岸交流通訊、兩岸交流資訊透明化、現行立法院委員組織法以明定立法院委員依法參加秘密會議之保密義務、委員者主席等交紀律委員會役處先於續名。委員提案除強化秘密會議規範外,"},{"start":2769.56,"end":2794.374,"text":"你徵定曾參加命運會議之立法委員及其關係人,以任期中或聘僱關係存續期間,前往中國及港澳地區應報備並公開資訊等情,授其關係人範圍界定及各自隱私權之限制,當尊重委員在保密事項所保護之法律與人民基本權利保障間取得和平或是合一決定,三擴大"},{"start":2795.154,"end":2821.997,"text":"禁止兼任職之職體及範圍委員提案擬擴大立法委員不得兼任職兼任兼職範圍徵定兼任會營內團體職位之申報義務及各會期報道期間未完成報道者停發其稅工會等節因此立法形成自由之範疇當尊重委員合意決定是徵定徵定立法委員及性騷擾或性別歧視言行之調查處理機制"},{"start":2822.958,"end":2849.445,"text":"委員提案擬徵令立法委員涉及性騷擾或性別歧視言行之調查及處理機制,應現行性騷擾防治法及性別平等工作法等法規,一定有相關規範。除上屆規範之外,是否再將立法委員擬涉性騷擾或性別歧視行為納入委員自立機制,屬於立法政策之選擇。"},{"start":2851.38,"end":2862.463,"text":"令參酌國外立法例及美國、法國、英國等國國會與倫理規範或院會決議另有相當規範,其與各國說服明文,然可以以該行為有損國會尊嚴交互相關委單位調查後提報院會議署,僅供參考。至於針對"},{"start":2875.197,"end":2884.843,"text":"違反立法委員行為法規定受及刑事責任者之後續處理程序應屬國會之律事項當尊重委員合意決定。三（立法院議事規則"},{"start":2886.311,"end":2915.061,"text":"本院排審修正六案議事規則大概有三部分,一個是修正臨時提案、處理時間、彙取國事論壇制度以及完備秘密會議之保護措施。首先,有關臨時提案處理時間,屬議程安排事項,尊重委員決議決定。其次,國事論壇制度當時有其設立緣由,並因有其臨時性、機動性與新聞性之特點,提供委員問字之場域,其存在於何,當尊重委員合意決定,"},{"start":2916.241,"end":2942.533,"text":"關於秘密會議保密措施本次會議所列立法院組織法、立法院行為法亦有相當規範外,本院並已訂定立法院員工參與秘密會議應遵守事項,針對已為員工明定應簽署保密切結書以及禁止吸入行動電話、錄影設備、通信電子器材等強化保密措施,僅附帶說明。以上報告敬請執交。謝謝。"},{"start":2946.213,"end":2954.716,"text":"提案說明及機關報告已進行完畢。其餘機關報告請參閱書面。相關書面報告內容列入公會記錄。現在開始詢答時間。本會委員時間8分鐘,必要時得延長2分鐘。非本會委員時間5分鐘,不再延長。上午10點30分截止發言登記。現在請登記第一位的省委員發言。"},{"start":2987.846,"end":3012.232,"text":"主席各位同仁我想我也非常高興說今天終於可以順利的來就我們這個國會改革的相關法案能夠進入實質的討論那過去有關於程序上面的這些紛紛擾擾本席這也是能夠有這個機會覺得進入這個實質的討論我也是覺得非常的欣慰"},{"start":3013.82,"end":3028.672,"text":"那我想這個有關國會改革的這些法案除了我們已經有在經過正義程序中已經這個保留的這些相關的修正草案之外"},{"start":3030.335,"end":3055.763,"text":"今天我們另外還有十個案子這十個案子這個內容就是真正的針對這個國會改革自律的一些相關規範包括議事規則包括這個我們國會幕僚的強化包括國會的自通安全、性別平等以及國會的相關自律甚至包括兩岸交流的這個資訊透明化等等這些我們認為說屬於"},{"start":3057.868,"end":3060.972,"text":"屬於國會改革姿勢體大的一些問題。」"},{"start":3074.076,"end":3091.506,"text":"周秘書長早安我剛有講我們今天所審查的國會改革的相關議題是相當多我相信在等一下詢問過程中每位委員會有不同著重不同的重點跟秘書長"},{"start":3093.647,"end":3115.135,"text":"來進行了解因為秘書長因為基於做國會的幕僚長的角色因此你在書面報告上面有對於這些修正立法委員所提出來修正草案大部分都不便評論這個我們都可以理解那我就一些部分來跟秘書長來討論首先我就這個"},{"start":3118.476,"end":3146.018,"text":"我們民進黨所提的國會改革法案中一件很重要的事情就是有關國會強化國會資通安全的相關的這個規定這個這個我們簡單講我們就是增列了這個這個我們的草案就是增列要求這個立法院必須設增設資安長以及增設資訊通這個資通安全處大概是這這這兩個部分"},{"start":3148.018,"end":3155.264,"text":"我想請問這個民主黨齁我看到現在現在在我們除除了我們的這個這個立法院組織法"},{"start":3156.411,"end":3179.017,"text":"裡面目前沒有這樣的編制,但是事實上我們在107年6月7年前就通過了這個資通安全管理法。資通安全管理法裡面有一些相關的規範。那這些相關規範它的主要規範對象就是所謂公務機關。那立法院當然是公務機關之一吧,是不是?"},{"start":3181.544,"end":3190.932,"text":"因為本來自動安全法第11條都規定以後,立法院也有由副秘書長來兼治安長。現在已經有了。"},{"start":3198.198,"end":3222.579,"text":"那系列上大概我在內部也...所以簡單講我們立法院也受這個資通安全管理法的規範嘛因為它是公務機關嘛,立法院是公務機關,這應該毫無異議吧?沒有毫無異議啦齁那第11條的部分有民進黨說明說我們目前已經有設這個資通安全長啦齁但是第12條呢,接下來第12條齁,它有說公務機關每年"},{"start":3224.156,"end":3249.736,"text":"應每年向上級機關或監督機關提出資通安全維護計劃實施情形。無上級機關者及資通安全維護計劃實施情形應送交主管機關。」請問我們立法院有沒有做?每年?我們每年有沒有做這個資通安全管理法所規定的"},{"start":3250.492,"end":3258.002,"text":"委員好這個資通安全維護計畫實施情形我們每年都有做每年都有做啊做了之後我們是什麼我們沒有上級機關嗎"},{"start":3259.633,"end":3261.193,"text":"第14條公務機關因應資通安全事件應訂定通報及應變機制"},{"start":3285.747,"end":3308.813,"text":"請問我們有沒有制定第14條這個相關的通報跟應變機制因為我查遍了我們的公開資訊都找不到啦其實都找不到所以包括你剛剛所說的這個資通安全維護計畫我查這個公開資訊也沒有查到啦所以我現在要了解一下第14條呢第14條規定的這個應訂定通報及應變機制我們有訂定嗎"},{"start":3317.185,"end":3334.882,"text":"有沒有?我們沒有訂定那個計畫但是依照速發部的這個訂定的相關規範我們有訂定了18種這個相關的內規也就是說資通安全法第14條的部分我們還沒有做到立法已經7年了我們立法院自己本身還沒有做到這個部分我覺得"},{"start":3335.848,"end":3358.228,"text":"我覺得法永明定我們就應該要做了這就是我們為什麼民進黨黨團會提出說應該要設立資通安全處的一個看法因為你們現在都是我們的這個資安長是兼任那我們這些資通安全目前由資訊處的同仁也是兼任"},{"start":3359.869,"end":3376.892,"text":"其實資訊處的同仁他們在資通安全上面他們並不是專門在針對資通安全的部分處理他對整個立法院的所有資訊系統都是他的責任這責任很過於重大另外針對第15條公務機關所屬人員對於機關資通安全維護績效優良者應予獎勵請問我們有沒有"},{"start":3388.334,"end":3417.546,"text":"這七年來我們例如我舉例像教育部教育部他就有教育部人員資通安全事項獎懲基準他們有訂立這個獎懲基準請問我們立法院針對資通安全法第15條我們還沒做到我們還沒訂立獎懲的這樣一個基準所以這七年來也沒有針對這些所謂資通這個資安人員的獎勵都沒有嗎你沒有基準就沒有獎勵對不對這七年都沒有嗎秘書長這部分齁"},{"start":3419.725,"end":3433.662,"text":"這部分我在舉就是說我們立法院的事實上這個是依法明定的我剛所講的都是依法明定的就是我們的自通安全法從第11條到第15條除了第11條設一個資安長之外我們其他通通沒有做到"},{"start":3436.656,"end":3460.634,"text":"由於從組織架構來說明,因為大概院之間,大概因為其他各院也沒有特別針對資通安全設一個處,就是一個單位。那我想雷氏總是當面也有稍微提供一次,各院目前都沒有,都由資訊處來監。至於剛才沈委員所提的這些部分,"},{"start":3461.554,"end":3484.803,"text":"我們今天沒有關係啊,我們要做到法定該做的事情要做啊。我們會,如果是說我們沒有跟貴院一樣,沒有設置中央安全處,在資訊處我們可以把他強化,但是這個沒有問題啊。先不要說強化,先不要說到我們修法之後的強化,我光現在依法該做的事情我們就還沒做啊。七年了也都還沒做啊。"},{"start":3490.46,"end":3519.141,"text":"這個部分是不是我們自己立法院定定的資通安全法我們自己立法院拜託我們該做的事情都要做好不好我們自己立法院有定一個立法院資通安全管理要點事實上我們立法院有定這個資通安全管理要點裡面有關資通安全組織提到說未落實本院資通安全管理由機關首長、指派副首長或適當人員兼任治安長"},{"start":3520.749,"end":3547.386,"text":"並成立資通安全集合小組。」請問我們現在有沒有資通安全集合小組?現在有。有集合小組?有集合小組。它是臨時編制嗎?對,它是一個臨時編制。是一個臨時性的編制。資通安全工作小組呢?也有。目前也有。也有。也是臨時編制?對對。對不對?這個個人資料管理小組?也有。也有齁?對,都有。那這個"},{"start":3549.11,"end":3575.801,"text":"我們這個立法院的資通安全管理要點裡面有提到第六點,第六點有提到要實施資通安全教育訓練及宣導。第二十點提到說本要點應該要定期宣導,請問我們有做什麼宣導?我們每年八月會有統一的一個教育訓練。第十六點有提到說我們應該要定定營運持續緊急應變演練。"},{"start":3579.676,"end":3590.457,"text":"及復原計劃。」我們有做演練嗎?有有有,每年兩次。每年兩次,我們演練就是演練我們立法院的資訊系統,有包括到各委員的研究室嗎?"},{"start":3594.515,"end":3617.693,"text":"都是應用系統跟設備因為研究室的話設備是要測試啦但是這個資通安全是要演練啦我們有演練嗎我這個立法院國會辦公室我沒有看到哪一個任何一個委員的辦公室有做過資通安全的演練啊主要是系統對外的這個部分啦這部分齁這部分齁這個秘書長"},{"start":3622.349,"end":3639.065,"text":"我所提的這些其實都是已經是法定該做的事情但事實上我們都沒有做到為什麼我個人認為就是因為我們自通安全沒有專責機構了就是因為沒有專責機構大家都是兼任了剛剛所講的飢餓小組工作小組個人資料這些小組都是臨時性編制"},{"start":3641.178,"end":3660.967,"text":"所以民進黨才會提出這樣子的修正草案希望說我們在組織法上面能夠明定設立資訊安全、自通安全的這個專責機構因為畢竟立法院是國家重要的一個機構它的自通安全絕對不容忽視以上好謝謝好謝謝沈委員謝謝副秘書長接下來有請羅委員志強發言"},{"start":3684.253,"end":3685.117,"text":"主席有請周秘書長請周秘書長"},{"start":3690.613,"end":3712.86,"text":"議員賴瑞隆,你好。議員賴瑞隆,你好。同樣的,不會為難你。在這個不為難你的狀況之下,就要借重您對於我們立法院多年來,議事規則還有相關程序進行的專業。那就最近這一段時間有些疑問想要就教一下我們的秘書長。首先,其實"},{"start":3716.301,"end":3737.952,"text":"說真的我最近看到有關於國會改革的這幾波我們大家的討論或是攻防那我從中也學習到很多那第一個我就要想要就教一些我們的那個周秘書長就是說當國民黨就提出了國會改革無法之後"},{"start":3738.732,"end":3754.117,"text":"其實我們一直很努力的來去盡量能夠去廣納意見嘛所以我看到我們的吳宗憲、昭偉當提出了我們在推這個國會改革無法的時候那民進黨就覺得是討論不夠啊對不對那時候說討論不夠嘛所以討論不夠結果我們現在我們就安排一場關於國民黨版的國會改革無法一場專報"},{"start":3763.6,"end":3774.571,"text":"還覺得不夠我們排了一場公聽會那民進黨就直接還講說一場公聽會不夠啊更多人聽到啊所以就我們的吳宗憲招委還特別嚴審兩個禮拜本來排定要來審國民黨版的國會改革無法還嚴審了兩個禮拜"},{"start":3782.458,"end":3784.66,"text":"然後呢就讓民進黨可以再加開兩場公聽會一場專報三場公聽會請問吳宗憲的召委這樣做法是不是很獨裁啊覺得呢"},{"start":3795.898,"end":3820.884,"text":"因為這一個由召集委員來排定這一個因為我們各位組織法規定委員會的議程是由召集委員來排定所以大概兩個召集委員會有排這一個我是未必能說這一個是到底是場次的多少因為這一個大概我未必能說明我知道你未必能說明"},{"start":3821.744,"end":3837.919,"text":"但是我要跟各位講然後吳宗憲召委贏得了民進黨兩次的所謂的一個譴責提案然後就說他很獨裁這是民進黨對吳宗憲召委的待遇那接下來在這邊我想一想就是"},{"start":3838.78,"end":3853.388,"text":"章偉你真的是做得不夠啦對不對你這樣做人家也不滿意對不對所以可是齁如果是這樣的話我倒是對民進黨這次提出的國會改革無法我有一個很這個個人的建議啊如果吳宗憲、章偉做得不夠"},{"start":3854.409,"end":3860.035,"text":"我建議民進黨的國會改革無法,國會改革的版本尤其吳仕堯講這跟國民黨不一樣嘛不一樣的話應該要更廣納社會大眾意見不如開兩場專報五場公聽會好不好如果做不到吳宗憲召委一場專報三場公聽會的話沒有關係比照就是讓我們的民進黨的國會改革"},{"start":3877.893,"end":3893.584,"text":"版本好好的就像國民黨的國會改革版本一樣透過專報跟三場公聽會讓社會大眾檢驗讓大家好好看看說民進黨的國會改革版本到底是怎麼樣一回事我不知道我們的秘書長你覺得這個主意怎麼樣呢"},{"start":3894.777,"end":3909.454,"text":"指重召集委員因為今天召集委員是因為各黨團都有一位召集委員對對對我其實跟米斯坦問的時候也同時在建議我們的這個中嘉賓召委也同時建議我們的底下的民進黨的這個委員們"},{"start":3911.576,"end":3928.01,"text":"竟然民進黨版的這個國會改革這麼的重要那基本上我覺得是可以讓社會大臣有更多時間好好的來討論所以今天我們不如就讓我們今天大家各自表達意見之後的話是不是也請我們的中嘉賓的昭偉"},{"start":3928.931,"end":3957.843,"text":"能夠從善如流學學吳宗憲召委的風度或者是獨裁啦風度啦就說你們提案說你們說這個公聽會不夠要再加開對不對吳宗憲召委說馬上就兩個禮拜嚴審啊嚴審法案就讓我們的民進黨可以召開公聽會啦所以我覺得真的是比照一下吳宗憲這個召委的做法如果說吳宗憲召委的做法我也幫吳宗憲召委說句話啦如果吳宗憲召委的做法叫做"},{"start":3959.003,"end":3974.399,"text":"獨裁的話那我要就效一下我們的那個周岸玉算你也看過立法院風風雨雨幾十年啊對不對你知道民進黨執政八年常常開會五分鐘直接強行表決然後就散會啦表決五分鐘對不對因為人家人數多數嘛優勢嘛碾壓完就散會啦"},{"start":3982.767,"end":4008.74,"text":"你不要講說國民黨想開公聽會沒得談專報沒得談 對不對﹖連討論都給你五分鐘給你研究掉啊我想請問如果吳宗憲、張偉他主持會議六個小時的討論 對不對然後一次專報三次公聽會這叫獨裁我不知道民進黨這叫什麼皇帝嗎是秦始皇嗎還是說今天是朱元璋大帝呢"},{"start":4009.58,"end":4027.652,"text":"那到底是怎麼回事 我不知道五分鐘結束了一個所謂的立法院的一個委員會的討論比較獨裁還是今天吳宗憲召委六小時然後一場專報三場公聽會比較獨裁呢我不知道秘書長從你的多年的經驗你怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":4029.273,"end":4044.486,"text":"其實我離開九年多啦,中間我的書裏面也有稍微做幾個版的修正啦。其實我在志願集團的序裡面有提過啦,就是說當時對第十屆的院長,"},{"start":4046.067,"end":4071.5,"text":"當任的時候我有特別在序有特別強調希望能夠這一個制度上回歸到這個議事規範大家能夠遵守的一個範圍我記得我昨天下午那個三版的序我有特別做這個期許好 非常謝謝秘書長所以在這邊我就是希望說我們透過這多次的我們這些議事的過程當中比方說其實我覺得都是好事啦"},{"start":4072.02,"end":4090.991,"text":"大家有一些可能有一些摩擦衝突就是衝突妥協進步嘛那慢慢的去讓我們的議事更能夠順應民意能夠代表人民來監督這個政府這點就很重要比如說舉個例子我現在也在提案我要提一個神盾局的條款神盾局條款什麼神盾局條款就是我會提案來修改我們的一些議事規章"},{"start":4095.773,"end":4124.114,"text":"主席當然可以宣布休息這個我覺得是沒有問題的但主席宣布休息可不可以加一個開始跟結束時間啟祭時間告訴大家一下嘛 對不對不要突然三個小時消失不見這樣子耗盡所有人時間在那邊等也不太好我覺得加上就是休息要加時間我不知道民進黨覺得這樣建議會不會讓大家至少知道說那休息我們家就是做很多我們自己該做的事情因為每個委員有很多想要做的事情嘛"},{"start":4124.614,"end":4125.095,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":4134.958,"end":4159.507,"text":"我想在禮拜二在院會我們也有針對院長有做一個各位看到禮拜二的一個情況啦因為我們也把時間有稍微跟大會報告啦那因為現在的議事規則裡面是這個鑿定休息當然是一個彈性的一個當時為什麼立這個法是有一個彈性的規範的休息的"},{"start":4161.239,"end":4178.612,"text":"謝謝秘書長最後我就來看看為什麼跟大家講我覺得民進黨版的國會改革說真的我覺得是我看了以後有一種很大的感想就叫願總召變了心以前有一首歌叫願昌天變了心我是願總召變了心"},{"start":4180.754,"end":4207.92,"text":"因為我這一段時間真的很努力的在看民進黨2016的版本跟2024年的版本我越看越覺得到底是以前的柯總召有問題還是現在的柯總召有問題我開始覺得越來越困惑我舉個例子為什麼剛剛特別強調我真的希望我民進黨的版本的2024的版本可以多開幾場公聽會大家一起來討論原因是什麼因為很多東西我真的真的是看不懂啦比方舉個例子 舉個例子就是說"},{"start":4209.46,"end":4230.754,"text":"我不太懂為什麼2016年的民進黨的版本要求這個提供這個相關行政機關提供議案的文件要提供原本可是民進黨現在就把這些原本全部刪掉就只能提供所謂參考文件要必要時才能夠提供原本這是我第一個不解的為什麼要自我閹割呢這閹割的原因是什麼呢"},{"start":4232.975,"end":4253.951,"text":"事務需要開公聽會來跟大家社會大眾也許有高深的學問羅志強智力不足啦可能不知道不懂說今天為什麼民進黨版的這個版本是這個樣子那再比方說民進黨的現在的這個所謂的新的版本當中也包括說對人事同意權的行使過程當中本來2016年版本是要求是記名投票"},{"start":4254.491,"end":4254.631,"text":"條文修正草"},{"start":4273.78,"end":4294.221,"text":"民進黨2016年的版本是直接明文處罰說謊官員喔!他有好多的處罰太陽喔!處罰一萬到三十萬元對不對?我這個你想知道嘛對不對?可是呢民進黨2024年版本非常神奇的是他特別把處罰說謊官員那一段把它刪掉欸!"},{"start":4295.646,"end":4306.663,"text":"也就是說所有的泰亞裡面說謊官員是不乏的這麼神奇的民進黨的2024的國會改革版本真的要拿出來多開公聽會讓大家比胖啦謝謝"},{"start":4309.585,"end":4337.353,"text":"好,謝謝羅委員也謝謝秘書長在這裡因為有提及到本席跟我們吳宗憲召委在輪值主席的時候的有關公聽會那跟委員會報告說明在這次國會改革相關的法案當中由吳召委主持的會議當中安排了一場公聽會那本席主席輪值主席的時候安排了兩場公聽會所以這三場公聽會分別是由我們兩個人共同來完成的也請"},{"start":4338.213,"end":4365.133,"text":"我們在場的委員會的委員瞭解接下來我們有請陳委員俊宇發言好謝謝主席我們請周秘書長"},{"start":4367.061,"end":4394.556,"text":"請坐秘書長秘書長早我們今天要審查的是有關我們立法院的組織法還有立法委員的行為法、立法院議事規則以及立法院職權行使法等相關的條文那前幾週我們討論這個國會改革的時候大多是要完備我們立法委員的職權行使也希望能夠有效來監督政府回應民意"},{"start":4395.416,"end":4416.173,"text":"那不過我們立法委員在完善職權的同時也應該要有足夠的自律規範才能夠避免這種不當的行為產生首先想要就這個性平的議題與秘書長來做一個討論我想不管在任何的環境都會發生性平的事件的可能但立法委員作為我們"},{"start":4417.355,"end":4429.428,"text":"國家最高的民意代表自然要用最高的標準來防範性騷擾或性別歧視的言語對於性騷擾零容忍我們也應該要不分黨派大家要有共識"},{"start":4430.714,"end":4450.305,"text":"那我想就叫我們秘書長是不是因為立法委員不屬於立法院的員工所以現行的立法院工作場所性騷擾防治及申訴處理要點以及立法院性騷擾防治申訴及調查處理要點都沒辦法約束到涉及性騷擾的立法委員"},{"start":4454.191,"end":4476.713,"text":"我先跟陳委員報告一下因為我們在上上禮拜剛剛開開過那個性評會的一個會議啦那換人也在吧就為了這個委員之間啦也要由我們院裡面再把他強化再做一個修正因為委員間的事有沒有有大概有法治局是不是哪邊"},{"start":4478.703,"end":4505.523,"text":"那請蕾叔叔來說明一下,就是那個細節性啊,所以在性評會我們有...沒關係沒關係,那個細節不用那對於我們這個立法委員的這個性評的自律機制從法治局所提供的資料來看美國、法國還有我們英國的這個國會都有訂定相關的規範或決議那其他國家雖然沒有明文的規定但也會以有損國會尊嚴來處理"},{"start":4507.564,"end":4529.191,"text":"如果民進黨團的我們所提出還有范雲委員所認定的這種立法委員行為法所提出的修正草案能夠通過我想請教秘書長您這個針對立法院能不能借盡外國的這種國會案例來辦理您會如何來建議我們紀律委員會朝這個方向來處理"},{"start":4530.339,"end":4556.626,"text":"我們大概一般來講如果委員的提案通過的話我們會當然依照法裡面來處理當然就因為紀律委員會也是由委員各委員會召集委員組成的所以如果有法規的話我們一定照這樣的就依法處理就對行政一定是配合的處理依照紀律委員會的規範的處理有一定會按照法規定叫紀律委員會議處理紀律委員會他會開會照這個規範來做好"},{"start":4559.227,"end":4585.319,"text":"好那在這裡我也要提醒我們秘書長我們在這個網站上有一個性騷擾防治專區有提供相關的資訊參考那應該有一段時間都沒有去更新了包括我們性平三法在去年這個7月已經有通過新的版本可是在網站上所公告的這個性騷擾申訴案件的SOP目前還是連結到舊的版本的條文"},{"start":4585.999,"end":4606.788,"text":"所以這個應該請我們相關單位是不是會後去注意一下,可以做...對,公務委員報告,我們現在都在修,那我們修好之後,因為依據信憑三法的修正齁,我們也在修院裡面剛剛委員提到的兩個法,那目前都已經在修正中,也會法治局表示意見,那修好之後我們都會做更新,還有公務委員報告。"},{"start":4607.828,"end":4629.185,"text":"另外對於性平委員會我們立法院性別平等委員會設置要點第三點裡面所是我們本委員會設置13人我們的院長跟副院長是當然的主任委員跟副主任委員秘書長您也是委員的成員我也是委員外聘有三位"},{"start":4630.565,"end":4656.75,"text":"另外是我們依黨團的席次去分配這個席次那這個任期是兩年可是這一屆第四屆的委員任期是從2022年的7月1號到今年2024年的6月30號那雖然任期還剩幾個月可是是橫跨兩屆國會的任期其中也有幾位的委員已經沒有在立法院這個"},{"start":4659.05,"end":4670.617,"text":"連任已經卸任了,包括我們的游院長也都卸任了。那我想請問秘書長就是說是不是應該將我們性品委員會的任期來做一個重新的調整以配合每一屆的國會組成?"},{"start":4672.546,"end":4699.459,"text":"根據就是依照這一次2月1號的新的屆期那沒有連任的會離開的委員我們都已經請黨團提供新的委員名單所以我們也變更了新的名單所以院長也改人副院長也改人那國民黨跟民眾黨的委員都我們都已經改變了那也通知各個委員所以已經重組好了對對對都重組好了那就是已經在上上禮拜開會了嗎對對都是新的委員"},{"start":4701.06,"end":4723.694,"text":"好,那我們性平、性別平等委員會所負責的這個任務其實是非常的重要不但是要推動我們這個性平的政策、法規還有業務立法院的幕僚單位也負責對性別這個議題進行研究和分析那本期還是希望說我們性平會不只是制度上的持續精進"},{"start":4724.835,"end":4748.948,"text":"在工作上也能持續的深化同時納入更多元的聲音並將這個性平的意識落實在立法院的每一個人每一個地方將國會營造成一個沒有性騷擾或性別歧視的友善職場我相信這應該要請秘書長要去落實我們這個謝謝謝謝因為他執行秘書是由我們副秘書長來兼任的我們會幕僚方面會員認出來處理"},{"start":4752.932,"end":4780.85,"text":"好再來我想針對這個國事論壇的部分我想有關國事論壇的存廢問題也不是一個新的議題了那本席是我們本屆次的新科立委在對於國事論壇的必要性感到非常的懷疑至二月就任以來也從未在國事論壇上去登記發言過那每個委員站在台上獨自講了三分鐘有時候發言"},{"start":4781.77,"end":4786.495,"text":"事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具"},{"start":4800.765,"end":4815.831,"text":"立法院提供的這個書面報告書裡面有寫到關於國事論壇的制度當初有其設立的原有並因具有臨時性、機動性還有新聞性的這個特點提供委員問政的這個場域而當初"},{"start":4817.093,"end":4834.643,"text":"我們設置國事論壇原本是要提供給委員更多發言的機會讓委員能夠有這個叫自由的發表政策反映民情或是對於時事進行評論但是現在早已是這個電子化和網路媒體的時代"},{"start":4835.303,"end":4853.269,"text":"我們委員都有相當多元的這個發言的管道那我想請教秘書長您在這個立法院三十多年了應該是最能夠感受到這個變化為了讓立法院的這個意識能夠更加有效率是不是也認同國事論壇應該走入歷史"},{"start":4856.469,"end":4881.022,"text":"我因為從第二屆開始的國事論壇當時的有他的背景在背景我的在當時的情況是因為藝術論花園市場委員就藉藝術論花園來來做篇主題的花園所以有一位委員就在也是在預算委員審查的時候提出來才有這個基礎設計的不過這一個"},{"start":4884.524,"end":4908.505,"text":"這一個國事論壇長期也有蠻多的委員跟外界希望把它廢止,我也聽得到但是其實我個人認為國事論壇是一個失風道另外一個就是就是還要存在就對了我個人不認為說這一個國事論壇就是一定是不好的一個機制當然它還有其他配偶的比如舉個例來講九點開會"},{"start":4911.067,"end":4932.109,"text":"那如果有國事論壇的這個時間或許是有些委員他會讓這個法定人數可能在10點的話可能就立即就可以開會啦這個是大概有一些其他衍生的一些制度的一個配合啦我是個人不認為說一定國事論壇就不好啦"},{"start":4932.609,"end":4949.973,"text":"這是等於一個另外的可以把政見反映各方面的,雖然現在外界的可能很多委員都直播啦。剛剛秘書長我講的是說因為在上面講的三分鐘並沒有答詢的那個結果嘛,只有講而已,沒有回答。"},{"start":4950.433,"end":4964.592,"text":"我看有辦法就像臨時提案一樣他有一個輸紅道啦他可以把反映的他各選區或是什麼的一個民意的一個對這個反映所以美國制度是一分鐘演說吧"},{"start":4965.954,"end":4990.837,"text":"所以這個三分鐘是藉那個制度的衍生過來因為我個人並沒有說一定說不能會不過我是跟報告說這個有他的一些機能在另外還有一個就是有關臨時提案的處理時間現行的這個立法院議事規則第九條規定是在下午的五點到六點處理"},{"start":4993.395,"end":5003.521,"text":"針對這個部分我們希望說能不能改到在下午的一點到兩點來處理方便這個會議主席召開黨團協商會議的時候也能夠有充分討論的時間那針對這個部分"},{"start":5006.618,"end":5034.193,"text":"我想請教秘書長您的看法我尊重這個沒有我沒有特別說一定不行所以因為其實會議如果在因為現在剛開始沒有法案進來其實一般來講法案進來的話都可能到五點都還在進行法案的處理但我因為我問了醫事處的同仁他們大概這兩屆很多委員提出希望這個時間那我不反對"},{"start":5034.893,"end":5051.731,"text":"案,並擬具:「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案 、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案 案,並擬具:「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案 、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案 案,並擬具:「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案 、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案 案,並擬具:「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案 、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案 案,並擬具:「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案 、第五條及第三十二條條條文修正草案 案,並"},{"start":5061.981,"end":5065.344,"text":"謝謝周委,有請我們立法院的周秘書長。請周秘書長。"},{"start":5070.719,"end":5070.739,"text":"國務委員"},{"start":5100.84,"end":5102.021,"text":"立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草"},{"start":5116.468,"end":5119.433,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":5131.255,"end":5151.494,"text":"賴瑞隆不是這樣說的嗎?這樣比較好嗎?對嗎?是啦,我抱歉,我以為你在挑釁,但我還在害你,在批評別人。我今天就不談這些啦。我今天就談,其實國會改革裡面有很多啦,有軟實力也有整個國會的硬體的一個部分。我記得新國會開始的時候,在3月21號,你第一次在做立法院的一個業務報告,本席也針對國會擴建的問題請教過秘書長啦。"},{"start":5155.558,"end":5162.784,"text":"這個問題其實很開放的當初我記得你跟我的答覆是說游錫堃院長也曾經跟你說明過這個整個擴建的這樣一個過程那也期望本屆立委、立法院可以繼續來推動國會的一個擴建那你也說你也跟韓國瑜院長報告過"},{"start":5175.214,"end":5185.08,"text":"那後續這個月初秘書長答詢的時候也講說很極力想推動國會的一個擴建那關於國會擴建這樣的一個議題整個立法院的總務處會去研擬再向韓院長來做報告這是秘書長你的講法其實四平八穩那我要請教秘書長就是說距離上次這樣的一個這個議題的一個答詢以後差不多一個月時間你有跟韓國瑜這樣說過嗎?他態度到底是什麼?"},{"start":5204.337,"end":5220.703,"text":"賴瑞隆,因為當時提的是三個月內,不過我們總務處昨天就已經簽上來,那個簽的公文大概今天早上應該就送到院長室去了。這一個過程當時因為"},{"start":5227.185,"end":5254.188,"text":"案件,只派我跟公督門接見以後,就大概有稍微跟他報告是有這些院子簽件的事的。因為今天已經正式公文了,因為總統書的正式公文已經簽上來。另外要答覆這個我們說法制委員會因為三個月內,但有一些裡面的文字上我早上昨天晚上我是沒有批,我現在在看。"},{"start":5254.929,"end":5256.17,"text":"此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外"},{"start":5277.563,"end":5277.863,"text":"擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具"},{"start":5297.28,"end":5323.248,"text":"一個進程我接下來讓秘書長你來看一看我不曉得你有沒有最近都走到中興的一個地下室從2月1號新科立委報到以後到現在他三個月很多的裝潢需求的辦公室也陸續都完成該汰換的家具也都替換了你看整個地下室的走廊再走到戶外你有沒有想過這要說立法院地下室是在辦家具展又怕人家看這也覺得怪怪的你知道嗎"},{"start":5325.669,"end":5347.939,"text":"你自己把它看看這些圖,這個應該你很熟了那你在看到這一屆的一個立法院議事工坊其實是蠻激烈小小的一個空間裡面,你看有時候官員、委員、助理、記者、動輒上百人在一個一個空間裡面其實你看這個空間你看委部會、官員、媒體、立委、議事、領委、組織、黨團、組織、媒體在這裡你看這實在是很大的"},{"start":5354.621,"end":5354.902,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":5374.875,"end":5388.782,"text":"那這些,米主長,你應該很有感慨嘛,很有感嘛。其實每一個法律案的一個提出啊,本席到都認為啊,都有我們很多辛苦的國會助理的痕跡啊。例如說,呃,強化蘭赫啊,"},{"start":5391.578,"end":5392.839,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案"},{"start":5409.006,"end":5422.771,"text":"有時候我在想說,我們不夠理想的國會的一個動線,或者說這個處事位置的一個安排對整個立法、修法的一個效率,它其實還是有影響的。你給我繼續看。我們本院有很多的助理。請問我多一個助理,你知不知道在哪裡?"},{"start":5429.241,"end":5429.301,"text":"主席"},{"start":5446.426,"end":5449.988,"text":"本院很多的助理、議事人員、公務員來上班一大早找車位的一個大戰。以助理來講,大多是停在中心的地下室。中心的地下室最初設計只有汽車而已。"},{"start":5472.137,"end":5472.718,"text":"條文修正草案案例"},{"start":5489.74,"end":5500.645,"text":"但是在完成這整個國會擴建的歷史任務之前,我們現在的各處事或者各委員會的位置分配跟動線,你敢去請做一個檢討及條件的評估,審這間、聽這間、委這間、記這間的部分,做一個妥適的規劃。我們不要說空的、說這麼大的。"},{"start":5509.864,"end":5531.697,"text":"請你回答。謝謝你的指導。其實我在這邊知道以前車位各方面都經歷過這種情況。這比較剛剛莊委員提的有一點就是說這辦公室的配置我倒是特別注意到這一點。可能在"},{"start":5533.138,"end":5557.667,"text":"短期間,我想,因為這個,如果要,辦公室的變動是很大,那這一個指導課可以來思考看看是不是...這不是只有思考,這要謹記做啦,這如果都沒做齁,如果都不做,這不用簽公文的,你知道嗎?司法法制委員會,我們這圍洞先蓋一個法蓋就須蓋啊,對不對?你說把國會的助理,讓他們有一個更好的一個空間齁?"},{"start":5559.349,"end":5583.991,"text":"我是覺得不為過也應該啦為什麼呢你說從提案的在修法預算案日常質詢到地方這些會刊我相信都有國會助理的痕跡其實在現在法制上面來看你看我們國會助理的法源現在就只有在立法院組織法第32條立法委員每一個人得志公會助理8人到14人由委員聘任這樣而已"},{"start":5587.14,"end":5596.088,"text":"關於立法委員的助理的行為、待遇、勞動條件這些細項,法制上也沒有一個明文的規範。我一直在想說為他們報區,長期的預算就是這樣而已,那有沒有可能?"},{"start":5602.794,"end":5630.215,"text":"我們去把他看到一些一些比較具體的東西以後去思考如何來去做一個改進像比如說最近大家講的五一勞動節要搞什麼五一勞動節你說我們國會的助理你說他到底要適用什麼他當然適用勞基法但是問題是他現在夾在軍公教跟勞工之間他們是最容易被忽略掉的一群被忽略掉的一群所以你看他們到底是要跟著立法院的組織來運作"},{"start":5632.205,"end":5646.669,"text":"議員賴瑞隆等16人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案件及法制法部分條文修正草案 案件及法制法部分條文修正草案 案件及法制法部分條文修正草案 案件及法制法部分條文修正草案 案件及法制法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":5660.872,"end":5679.508,"text":"所以這裏面就 我知道滿多委員有提的因為他的資格條件的限制上那這一個裏面就會有兩個是不是像現在黨團所提的這些條文那就是你第一項跟後面這一項大概有稍微就有點從法上來看就有點不一樣"},{"start":5681.929,"end":5695.595,"text":"法律有缺漏,為什麼你知道嗎?你像比如說我們現在勞基法的規定,適用勞基法的勞工在勞動節上班,工資依法加倍罰期對不對?你理解我你那個編制相關預算上你還沒有去寫這張啊,你有沒有編?也沒有?九月,九月我們給你的工作,這張特別注意一下。一般勞工,不然你在那個勞動節那天你叫他上班。"},{"start":5710.319,"end":5712.481,"text":"等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5726.618,"end":5754.213,"text":"那這個地方進來以後你看立法院我看很多辦公室的助理這樣流來流去有久了以後我相信很多人會熱情耗盡往往會向社會去低頭有的去另抹出路或者有的跳來跳去那其實國會助理是一個非常需要去累積經驗的一個地方對於整個民主法制的一個建構也都有它的一個貢獻那以日本為例來看的話日本他們設有政策擔當秘書資格的試驗"},{"start":5756.454,"end":5777.83,"text":"通過率五趴,月薪四十三萬三千兩百塊的一票,像我們台灣12萬的台幣。這個其實我們自己的國會裡面,如果我們要鼓勵有志深耕國會者,讓他有對未來的資源更有想像空間的話,至少這個部分我們去做一個提升,是我們可以思考的一個對象。"},{"start":5781.357,"end":5781.657,"text":"主席賴瑞隆等23人擬具"},{"start":5804.58,"end":5805.741,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5834.774,"end":5848.603,"text":"我們更希望整個國會助理的待遇可以來提升,還有我們立法院我剛提出秀那些照片給民進黨看的,我們趕快去把它馬上去改善啦,不要說自己說的,那沒用演繹的啦,有心沒心而已,好,秘書長。"},{"start":5850.151,"end":5855.056,"text":"賴瑞隆等16人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案件及其中一條條文修正草案案 案件及其中一條條條文"},{"start":5875.094,"end":5884.242,"text":"你這算立法院的老先鋼啦,這如果讓到該官喔,國會這的助力大家都會給你打破我啦,好不好。謝謝,謝謝。好,謝謝莊委員,謝謝秘書長。接下來有請黃委員、國昌發言。"},{"start":5907.037,"end":5930.907,"text":"關於整個國會改革的法案在運作上面我們當然希望核心是有關於國會聽證調查制度的建立以及人事同意權強化的審查這個是我這次認為國會改革的重中之重"},{"start":5931.809,"end":5952.116,"text":"在這兩個重點核心條文之外我們要外延去修其他的條文我覺得當然也應該可以考慮但我們在修條文以前有一些事實跟法律面必須要先確定因為這一次相關所提出來不管是委員還是黨團所提出來的版本"},{"start":5953.156,"end":5977.284,"text":"案件,有認為說我們應該要向地方議會的某些制度看齊,人沒來的時候也沒有關係,反正按照預定的時間來質詢。這個就牽涉到有一些爭議,因為當初有立委人不在現場,然後質詢被跳過去的時候,馬上衝到院長的辦公室,"},{"start":5978.224,"end":5995.72,"text":"韓國瑜院長禮拜五下午是不是要出去玩?是不是跑去喝酒?按照我們立法院調查的結果那天下午韓國瑜有跑出去玩還是跑出去喝酒嗎?來請秘書長所以他沒有出去玩也沒有出去喝酒嗎?"},{"start":6004.403,"end":6020.792,"text":"秘書長沒有啦事實先確定就好了嘛那天發生爭議的那天禮拜五中午的時候最後一位質詢王洪威質詢完的時候我在立法院IVOD上面看到是12點08分"},{"start":6022.915,"end":6033.299,"text":"我的理解有沒有錯誤?那12點08分按照我們的議事規則或是立法院相關的慣例啊是應該要繼續質詢下去還是中午應該要休息?所以接下來的下一個委員就是要下午質詢嗎?"},{"start":6052.925,"end":6054.266,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":6072.378,"end":6094.754,"text":"按照這一個登記擬定質詢的順序跟時間依照表定的時間來進行質詢在立法理由裡面我拜讀了他說是要保障立法委員的質詢權不受議事進行狀況所減損依照第一項登記名單擬定質詢的順序及期期的時間定了就不會動了這樣子的修法"},{"start":6095.655,"end":6095.916,"text":"秘書長,贊不贊成?"},{"start":6104.231,"end":6130.247,"text":"這個制度的某部分,因為方委在當場有提的,我們立即做研究以後,如果照這個法修完以後,就會變造成委員還是沒辦法解決,就官員一定要坐在那邊等到了。這就是我的問題嘛,委員改書面,突然改書面,就像我剛剛講的那個例子吧。"},{"start":6131.277,"end":6153.516,"text":"本來輪到他質詢的時候要到下午了你不可能叫中午的時候院長所有的議事人員為了配合你的方便中午不休息繼續質詢嘛那下午的他下午有行程就跑了嘛跑了他要改書面那我的問題就來啦那如果立委質詢改書面或質詢行政院長所有的部會首長要坐在那邊等嗎"},{"start":6155.02,"end":6181.069,"text":"如果說法修還是一樣會造成這個現象好那第二個事情是說民進黨黨團也提一個版本出來我看了很有意思他說機關或是機構在調查委員會行使調查權的時候沒有正當理由不可以拒絕拖延引力不提供文件資料或物件重點是下面違反前項規定提報院會決議處新台幣一萬以上三十萬以下罰還"},{"start":6182.892,"end":6186.853,"text":"48條的組織是機關機構第二項是要罰誰?罰機關機構嗎?我看了很困惑就像我叫農業部把報告交出來一旦去哪裡買的跟誰買的我要了兩個月到今天還在拖延如果按照這個新法我們是罰農業部嗎?農業部不交罰農業部拿納稅的預算來繳罰款"},{"start":6213.306,"end":6238.861,"text":"這個有什麼嚇阻的作用啊來請秘書長表示意見好沒有關係啊看一下44585啊44585有這麼限縮嗎民進黨黨團的版本有兩大問題啊第一個說謊的時候要怎麼處理我對說謊的時候要怎麼處理這件事情特別有感因為我們的國會官員啊"},{"start":6240.58,"end":6263.207,"text":"我們的政府官員在國會裡面被抓到說謊不曉得幾次了從來沒有人負責連昨天司法院秘書長我問他說2016的時候賴浩敏、蘇永青是不是因為總統換屆有提前請辭我問他他說他不便表示意見"},{"start":6264.187,"end":6284.489,"text":"那奇怪囉換其他立委問他的時候他說是因為任期戒了所以什麼所以才遲這根本是胡扯啊2016年的時候人家辭職書五月就提出來了啦只是總統不批七月的時候才公佈啊那哪是任期戒制啊"},{"start":6286.892,"end":6315.345,"text":"是忘了說當年夏天還提了兩位不適任的司法院正副院長引發民間社會大反彈啊那個時候蔡英文才把那個時候夏天提的司法院正副院長的名單撤回重新提才有我們許仲麗老師上去當大院長嘛這個簡單的客觀的歷史事實都可以在國會裡面胡扯第二個重要的事情是什麼世紀585講得很清楚啊"},{"start":6316.172,"end":6344.353,"text":"他規範的對象是什麼?與調查事項相關的人民或政府人員有限於機關機構嗎?有限於只有政府人員嗎?4585號不是寫得很清楚嗎?連人民都包括在裡面啊這不是國會固有的調查權嗎?怎麼我們自己由黨團提出來的所謂的國會改革的法案竟然裡面有志工條款"},{"start":6346.475,"end":6366.147,"text":"規範的範圍比四字五八五號還要限縮啊我看了真的是瞠目結舌啊這是哪門子國會改革啊國會改革是限縮國會自己的權限四字五八五號白紙黑字寫在這邊結果在立法院職權行之法相應的條文"},{"start":6367.352,"end":6390.316,"text":"沒有規範所以我們現在才要推國會改革嘛但有一件更嚴重的事情跟今天國會改革有密切相關立法院我們過去這是我在追蹤很久的案子我們立法院之前用了一個民進黨的大樁腳叫做林耀廷"},{"start":6392.959,"end":6401.91,"text":"當職員。結果他在立法院任內的時候幹了什麼事情啊他竟然幫助跨國的洗錢集團把中國人非法引進到台灣來來幫助洗錢欸"},{"start":6410.795,"end":6424.181,"text":"檢察官的起訴書整個調查包括判決說我們立法院裡面有內鬼用偽造的文書找中國人來台灣幫助洗錢幫助詐騙律師長您仔細看喔"},{"start":6428.137,"end":6449.944,"text":"我把審判筆錄看完啊,審判筆錄說什麼?這個被告林耀廷在裡面講說,立法委員那邊啊,已經傳給承辦人了。委員會親自處理啊,放心,我也會去親自處理啊。他橫向聯繫了以後,再找立委把手伸進去啊,委員可以施壓行政機關啊。"},{"start":6451.732,"end":6473.444,"text":"這個嚴重的國安問題耶!非常嚴重的國安問題耶!我們立法院裡面竟然有內鬼去幫助外面的洗錢集團找立法委員施壓我們的行政機關施壓行政機關的範圍包括了什麼?NCC、移民署"},{"start":6475.094,"end":6501.541,"text":"幫這些洗錢集團快速審案可以用不實的文件拿到簽證來台灣幫忙洗錢這麼嚴重的影響台灣國家安全跟社會秩序的離譜情勢我們的立法院有成立調查小組調查過嗎?當然是免職嘛他一個人做得出這種事情來嗎?"},{"start":6502.984,"end":6523.685,"text":"在審判筆錄他自己承認的事情找立委施壓哪一個立委施壓這麼可惡幫詐騙洗錢集團用偽造的文件找中國人到台灣來還施壓我們的行政機關這個事情該不該調查秘書長"},{"start":6526.29,"end":6544.358,"text":"是該不該調查因為我不太了解沒有關係我給你時間去了解我來了解一下好不好可以嗎我不知道啦這個職員是不是因為是民進黨的大樁腳所以上屆的國會輕輕放下根本沒徹查嘛"},{"start":6547.557,"end":6575.835,"text":"今天有立委提啊說性騷要把他放到立法委員行為法裡面我老實講我個人是贊成的性騷也好性侵害也好性歧視也好都放進來沒有問題但我的問題很我的問題是立法技術的問題我們在其他的行為裡面都沒放就放個性騷來我列舉幾個啦請秘書長表示意見立委關說司法該不該放進去"},{"start":6579.946,"end":6593.895,"text":"秘書長 性騷不對嘛 絕對不應該嘛 立委關說司法該不該放進去建憲法好像已經有規定 有關說司法 來來來第二個 立委關說假釋要不要放進去"},{"start":6596.633,"end":6610.02,"text":"第三個立委用公帑到國外私匯小山要不要放進去?拿立法院的錢跑去日本在那邊私匯小山親中舔共這個要不要放進去?立委自己審預算自己撐起補助這個要不要放進去?我們在立法技術上要想清楚"},{"start":6626.158,"end":6637.612,"text":"哪一些該規範的條文啊全部都要放進去啊這很重要嘛秘書長你贊不贊成在尊重大家委員的要比較"},{"start":6639.804,"end":6667.103,"text":"詳細完整當然是剛才委員所提的啦不過司法案件好像第17條有規定啦對第17條在遊說那邊對啊阿你如果說覺得有規定那我就覺得很奇怪啦阿當初立委有關說司法什麼事也沒發生啊那我們今天該檢討的恐怕不是只有法律的規定喔是如果如同秘書長所講的法律已經有規定了阿怎麼說什麼事都沒發生"},{"start":6668.707,"end":6689.237,"text":"這個不是很奇怪的事嗎?這個才是我們今天討論立法委員行為法的時候應該要關切的重點之一嘛祕書長你讚不讚成?尊重大家委員大家合意剛才委員所提的那些各種都加入進去那由委員來合意啊好主席站起來了齁尊重主席謝謝"},{"start":6691.672,"end":6704.078,"text":"謝謝黃委員謝謝周秘書長我們今天審查的條文法案包括有立法院職權行使法以及立法委員行為法兩者是有些不太一樣謝謝接下來我們請林委員思明發言謝謝主席請秘書長請周秘書長"},{"start":6720.848,"end":6746.33,"text":"議員好,民主黨好。我想今天因為時間的關係,我想請就我們今天主要稀奇一尋答這幾個法案來請教秘書長。第一個就有關立法院組織法第十四條修正草案。議法院自秘書長一人、特任副秘書長一人並兼任本院的資通安全長推動及監督院內資通安全的相關事務。"},{"start":6747.796,"end":6774.579,"text":"那我想自通安全非常重要嘛我想秘書長一定同意但是這麼重要的一個職務現在修法說要由我們的副秘書長就特別又因為這個要設這個自通安全長那麼我們修法要建置一個副秘書長然後又由這個副秘書長來兼任我們的自通安全長"},{"start":6776.311,"end":6784.11,"text":"我想就教秘書長,副秘書長是不是一定他就具有知通安全的專業背景?"},{"start":6789.911,"end":6797.537,"text":"互負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負"},{"start":6816.09,"end":6827.992,"text":"之通安全管理法第十一條規定說公務機關應致之通安全長由機關的首長指派副首長或適當人員兼任"},{"start":6829.249,"end":6857.568,"text":"所以將依這一條的規定來看的話職通安全長不是一定要由副首長來兼任可以指派適當的人員兼任所以這樣的一個修法我看到這個修法提說就是由副秘書長陳院長之命並兼任本院職通安全長也就是說職通安全的這個事項就是由副秘書長來兼任"},{"start":6859.89,"end":6866.014,"text":"但是現在遇到一個狀況啊,副秘書長如果對自通安全完全他外行,他能夠領導統一嗎?"},{"start":6869.649,"end":6889.49,"text":"大概從法上來看是資安長大概來督導應該是督導這個自動安全的業務督導的內容很廣啊督導當然本身就要具有這方面的專業嘛你要督導你沒有這個專業背景怎麼督導"},{"start":6892.359,"end":6904.503,"text":"你怎麼督導這個自通的相關的安全的相關的這些細節這些業務你完全一竅不通啊你跟我講說你要去督導因為我該聽到那個民進黨的詢問現階段我們立法院對於自通安全的事項是怎麼樣子來處理"},{"start":6915.731,"end":6916.171,"text":"知通安全管理組織架構"},{"start":6933.058,"end":6956.057,"text":"第二是自動安全集合小組,他是任務編組第三個是個人資料管理小組,是本院各單位來組成你現在念的這個是我們現階段的我們的立法院對,沒錯的相關的一個規定依照我們的要點,立法院自動安全管理要點所以現在我們現在看這個版本,現在這次要修版本又說要成立自通安全處"},{"start":6957.518,"end":6958.799,"text":"案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條"},{"start":6979.949,"end":6995.007,"text":"其實目前其他單位目前都是在資訊處底下就有辦理這樣的工作當然有社資通安全長這個職務但是並沒有另外在社資通安全處這樣的狀況"},{"start":6996.969,"end":7025.154,"text":"所以我剛才聽到秘書長你是講說你要加強資訊處的相關的一個功能,就是資通安全的功能就可以達到維護資通的安全了嗎?是不是?你的意思是怎樣?因為我們有演繹過啦,因為資訊處裡面它的出規整在把資通安全納入進去我們處長大概是說這個業務上是沒有問題的而且其他各院的橫平性,其他各院也沒有受資通安全處"},{"start":7025.814,"end":7044.227,"text":"事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正草案案件事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正草案案件"},{"start":7054.174,"end":7067.259,"text":"我們就是資訊處的人員去辦理相關的事項,當然很多都是我們專職人員要四個,很多都是...就是你從現有的人員裡面去做調配嗎?做成立剛才講的好幾個小組嗎?有一個資訊安全小組嗎?"},{"start":7071.661,"end":7086.199,"text":"那我現在就說到底這些原來的資訊處的人員他有沒有去做過相關資訊安全的教育訓練如果他的他本來會的就是一個修電腦啦或者電腦的維護啦資訊安全他懂嗎"},{"start":7088.045,"end":7115.16,"text":"報告委員因為我們根據整個資料法規定的話像我們專責人要取得專業證照跟指揮證書我們都有依照規定所以有去做教育訓練有還有經過相關的考試是的認證有有都有OK好這樣我了解了所以我想所以以這個整個剛才的一個說明來講的話那秘書長你是同意說你也認為說應該是這一次的修法是沒有必要的"},{"start":7116.399,"end":7142.907,"text":"我們有研究過啦所以大概資安處不一定要成立但是把資安長名定在那邊因為現行就已經這樣的規範了所以我們在幕僚在處理的時候是認為資安長把他名定沒關係但資安處是各院評伍是不是要做這個大概我們在傾向是其實我一直心中一個疑問那為什麼不用資訊處長來兼資安長呢"},{"start":7144.984,"end":7148.548,"text":"事通安全管理法11條是規定由機關首長指派副首長或適當的人選兼任。"},{"start":7162.483,"end":7163.824,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文宣告"},{"start":7182.223,"end":7200.409,"text":"國事論壇是從我們立法院第幾屆就開始有了?我沒有記錯第二屆第四會期第四次會議就有了。就有了嗎?我剛才聽到您的詢問對於說國事論壇它是不是有繼續存在的必要性,您也做了很詳細的解釋。"},{"start":7202.33,"end":7218.858,"text":"那我想現在修法的一個理由好像是認為說會延宕議事那民進黨你認為會嗎?國事論壇這一個小時對我們的政府機關提出建言看法你認為這是要延宕議事嗎?我個人是比較保留啦"},{"start":7220.378,"end":7224.639,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草"},{"start":7249.524,"end":7260.814,"text":"案件嚴﹑增加立法委員監督的能量,這是一個很好的機制啊。我不曉得為什麼我們的執政黨的立委竟然認為說這個要把它廢除。"},{"start":7275.032,"end":7286.079,"text":"實事發生的相關的一些重要的正事在國事論壇提出自己的看法跟建言增加我們立法委員的監督能量我想這是非常正面有意義的"},{"start":7286.9,"end":7288.421,"text":"事由．立法院組織法部分條文宣告。"},{"start":7321.887,"end":7323.19,"text":"有請周秘書長和資訊處處長"},{"start":7330.619,"end":7358.031,"text":"三）委員你好那資訊處的我最後問了所以前面可以先休息一下那我知道周秘書長其實針對這些事情很多事你必須這是也是謹守中立的原則所以有一些問題我大概只是問一個大概那我現在因為我們今天好不容易可能可以進入竹條那我們之前在要做竹條的這個過程當中一直沒有辦法進去那我今天終於知道為什麼了為什麼因為"},{"start":7359.351,"end":7387.191,"text":"顯然要嘛就是我才短短坐在這邊一個小時造謠的造謠法律搞不清楚的法律搞不清楚資安搞不清楚的搞不清楚這種狀況太多了所以我現在才發現原來不進入主條可能最主要的原因是在於這裡第一個我先提到就是上會這件事情像假設我們今天打籃球打比賽打到一半裁判直接宣布6比0那這樣的球賽打不下去所以這也是為什麼那時候民進黨提出上會這件事情"},{"start":7387.992,"end":7404.626,"text":"但後來國民黨提出散會是什麼?是今天打球打到一半他們自己說我不打了我要走掉了所以他們不管怎麼做他們的重點都只是要讓會議沒有辦法往下進行所以剛剛這個羅志強委員一直在講說我們這個什麼走掉我們今天不讓這個散會就是獨裁"},{"start":7406.147,"end":7424.037,"text":"他自己沒有搞清楚到底什麼才叫做獨裁不進入主條、不進入討論然後回去剪抖音影片這完全不是一個國會議事堂我們應該做的事情直接做A答B很顯然是他的專長第二個就是關於說謊這件事情也就是藐視國會"},{"start":7425.578,"end":7442.313,"text":"若是國會雖然不在今天的討論裡面但是我剛剛聽到羅委員一直提到2016年的版本說我們今天並沒有把說謊納進那就是因為前面調查權的範圍不夠限縮然後也不夠明確所以我們根本就搞不清楚說謊的定義在哪裡所以只好先不怕的放進去嘛"},{"start":7442.913,"end":7455.906,"text":"所以這就連結到像剛剛黃國昌委員提到的他說今天機關跟機構為什麼我們今天不直接處罰人要處罰機關跟機構道理很簡單因為今天如果在質詢的時候機關跟機構造假"},{"start":7458.388,"end":7482.304,"text":"造假的人不一定是站在那邊講話的那一個人他可能只是被推出來的嘛就好像那天吳宗憲委員被推出來之後結果只好把這個會議的進行很快速的亂過去這背後是傅坤祺嘛所以我們真正應該是要讓機關機構來負責然後讓他們去把真正的行為人找出來這才是處罰的最好的方式嘛"},{"start":7482.964,"end":7502.621,"text":"所以我一直都認為說就是他並沒有去了解我們現在到底進行的方式是什麼他只想要讓站在那一邊的那個官員能夠被定能夠被處罰然後到時候再剪成影片然後呢像我們剛剛前面提的散會的不斷的把我們提出散會申請這件事情剪成短影片然後介紹給大家說我們民進黨是怎麼樣的干擾這完全是錯誤的資訊"},{"start":7506.684,"end":7523.967,"text":"然後接下來我還要提到但是我還是要肯定黃國昌委員一點就是他剛剛提到就是剛剛我們他說有這個人他這個把中國的這個資金詐騙什麼帶進來所以原來我不知道原來黃國昌委員那麼的想要去管制去中國這件事情"},{"start":7524.908,"end":7549.246,"text":"這就是這叫風險管控嘛為什麼今天詐騙集團能夠進來中國的詐騙集團能夠進來就是因為這些人能夠接觸啊所以如果今天有人跟中國的黨政軍跟詐騙集團有接觸這個要不要控管這個風險很高嘛欸那我提出了一個法案說這個要控管那為什麼民國民黨跟民眾黨在程序委員會就要直接把這個封殺掉剛剛不是說很關心這個問題嗎這個是不分黨派的啊"},{"start":7551.748,"end":7575.069,"text":"這個又不是只有規範國民黨的委員跟民眾黨的委員民進黨的委員一樣要受到規範不是嗎所以一個那麼重要的規範一個高風險管控的規範為什麼能夠在程序委員會就把他擋下來這個不合理嘛所以我想問一下秘書長就是我們現在在程序委員會直接把這個法案拿掉這樣會不會讓我們以後都沒有辦法做提案"},{"start":7576.072,"end":7576.633,"text":"條文宣誓"},{"start":7592.395,"end":7598.818,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":7619.509,"end":7639.987,"text":"資安處就是現在我們在提說跟這個資訊安全有關的非常重要的一點是因為IT跟資安在現在外面的大公司他們比較喜歡分開那很大的原因是因為IT他譬如說他委託了某一家公司做幫忙這家公司如果同時做資安的話反而會形成資安的漏洞所以會希望說他能夠把它拆開那至於拆開到底要放在同一個地方"},{"start":7640.627,"end":7668.989,"text":"還是說要分成兩個處我覺得這都可以討論但很明顯的是這一定會有人力的需求所以我們在後面有特別去強調就是說人力需求這件事情那接下來想要問的就是如果依照現在資訊安全處的判斷你們是比較希望還是把資安放在這個裡面那人力擴充然後讓他們兩邊如果有合作的這個廠商他要分開還是說要把他直接獨立出來變成一個處怎樣對你們來講是比較方便的或者說比較好做的"},{"start":7670.676,"end":7670.816,"text":"主席"},{"start":7700.896,"end":7701.176,"text":"條文宣告"},{"start":7733.171,"end":7761.734,"text":"謝謝主席 有請秘書長請周秘書長委員好終於終於今天我們可以針對民主進步黨國會改革幾個沒有政治爭議相對是非常正面打造權責相符的進步國會這樣的條文法案"},{"start":7762.194,"end":7791.158,"text":"可以進入詢答的程序,往前推進了一步。」我也非常期待下午我們要進入竹條我懇切的在這裡再一次呼籲國會改革不要再拖延國會改革不要再害怕下午竹條也希望能夠如同今天上午的會議一樣順順利利據說傅昆奇總召好像人還沒有來到立院啦"},{"start":7791.778,"end":7819.841,"text":"所以今天也許因為副總召還沒有指揮還沒有在場所以早上我們可以進行議事再一次拜託下一次下午如果副總召來到現場我希望他帶來的是讓我們可以逐條審查就事論事就法案論法案的這樣一個好的議事態度那進入我的主題之前呢我當然也要回應一下前面幾位委員的一些意見"},{"start":7821.102,"end":7834.763,"text":"當然羅志強委員在這裡謝謝你收了我送你的書你也回送我一本書這是一個很好的心靈交流我也謝謝吳宗憲委員送我的書我今天有帶來委員會看一起來看文藝復興我們都需要更多的文化感"},{"start":7835.734,"end":7853.869,"text":"那羅志強委員再一次拿出民主建部黨2016的版本。羅委員每一次都以為撿到槍,其實是見數不見零。我再一次要說明,修法就是與時俱進。您是立法院的新科立委,但您一定也知道借其不連續是什麼。"},{"start":7855.831,"end":7884.133,"text":"秘書長借其不連續就是立法院運行這麼多年每一個借其因應新的名義、新的代表性以及新的進步思維所以法案都要重新再來借其不連續就是讓立法委員基於新的名義、基於更進步的新思維然後將過去曾經提出的法案可以重新檢視所以民進黨在2016年的國會改革的版本"},{"start":7885.133,"end":7909.893,"text":"當下民主進步黨是國會多數如果要通過也可以通過但因為當時的國會調查權的這個章節社會沒有匯聚共識甚至也有違憲之餘所以在憲法之前人人都得低頭在民意之前國會議員更當低頭因此"},{"start":7911.36,"end":7924.944,"text":"民主進步黨沒有利用國會多數的時候強推法案。新的屆期、新的名義,民主進步黨今年推出來的國會改革方案就如同我們現在的版本,歡迎大家就事論事來檢視。"},{"start":7927.757,"end":7942.89,"text":"另外我也要回應黃國昌總召其實黃總召在自己開直播的時候他已經講了他的立場國會改革基本上民眾黨就是支持國民黨"},{"start":7944.091,"end":7947.552,"text":"這也難怪我們在委員會這麼多次討論國會改革的版本從來沒有看過黃國昌委員針對國民黨所提的議案提出任何意見跟討論反而非常選擇性、非常針對性的來對民主進步黨的版本來做很多抹黑跟攻擊"},{"start":7965.509,"end":7984.62,"text":"如同剛剛講的ME TOO的法案他支持他不反對但是又利用了立法技術的理由搬出一堆是不是要做立法委員不當關說也要入法剛剛秘書長說明的很好嘛立法委員關說司法在其他的法律是不是也已經規範了"},{"start":7985.76,"end":7986.161,"text":"行為法17條就歸了。"},{"start":7999.056,"end":8009.999,"text":"涉及性騷、涉及性別平等反歧視的事項就應當這一次來修法入法所以黃國昌委員總是選擇性的來針對民進黨的版本提出不實的攻擊我再次強調如果有好的建議歡迎黃國昌委員在我們逐條審查的時候來跟民進黨的版本提出更好的意見我們一起來修法入法"},{"start":8028.945,"end":8052.221,"text":"我絕對樂見,但如果只是針對性選擇性的為攻擊而攻擊而且是政治立場凌駕了法律的專業。黃國昌委員說的國會改革基本上民眾黨就是支持國民黨這一個宣示正足以來證明他在國會改革的議案上政治立場"},{"start":8053.001,"end":8063.804,"text":"已經凌駕了法律的專業。」我再一次說這是非常遺憾的事。好,進入我的PPT,進入我的第六頁,因為時間有限。民主黨,國會的功能有哪些?您對進步國會的想像有什麼?這個題目很大,大災問。那我可以請教您,您應當去過很多國家的國會參訪。"},{"start":8079.688,"end":8101.316,"text":"有沒有哪個進步國會的建築設計讓您印象深刻的嗎?你要看大或小,我個人大概有走了三十幾個國家,那幾個來看啦。當然你最大是奧奧坎培拉那個最大,但是奧迪那個是比較豪華的。"},{"start":8105.117,"end":8105.617,"text":"條文宣誓"},{"start":8123.348,"end":8124.729,"text":"條文修正草案案案 。"},{"start":8141.115,"end":8161.231,"text":"案件事,當時的也是非常心酸才能夠有這麼幾間研究室包括新郎。所以擴建本身我個人不反對,而且我個人以如果是硬體的設備來講當然在國內的一個運作上是有必要的。"},{"start":8165.134,"end":8184.639,"text":"所以我說民主進步黨提出了一個有關國會不管是簽建、擴建我們有一個具體的條文就是希望可以幫立法院一把來下一頁進步國會它是超越了一個物質性的建築的想像它其實承載了更多精神性的意涵"},{"start":8185.503,"end":8187.565,"text":"一）立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．一）立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．"},{"start":8214.765,"end":8222.336,"text":"對外呢．一個國會．他更會是國會外交重點的場域．他也可能成為民主觀光的景點。這是吳思瑤對於一個進步國會的綜合想像。下一頁。"},{"start":8229.522,"end":8245.876,"text":"我是一個建築迷,大家都知道這幾個列出來的國會,譬如說柯比奕他為印度國會設計的香地格的國會。譬如說這個奧斯卡尼馬爾在巴西所設計的巴西國會。"},{"start":8247.057,"end":8261.182,"text":"亦包括美國知名的建築師Louis Kahn他在孟加拉打卡的國會這都是所有的觀光客、建築迷、專業領域者會去朝聖的國會景點。下一頁您剛講的德國柏林的新國會我個人當然非常的激賞、肯定它有三個時代性的意義當柏林圍牆1989年打開了以後"},{"start":8276.187,"end":8291.763,"text":"德國人認為要給民主的進程一個新的重要建築的象徵所以請了英國普利茲克獎的建築師Norman Foster1992年動手1994年完工他有一個政治民主意涵的"},{"start":8293.127,"end":8320.233,"text":"歷史意義。第二個,他設計了一個玻璃的窮頂人民可以走到最高位的至高點往下透過玻璃看著國會議員在那裡問政這象徵的意義就是打開國會國會是透明的讓陽光照進來人民可以在最高位由上往下看這些國會議員彰顯的就是人民是最高位這是第二個透明的國會新時代意義"},{"start":8322.654,"end":8346.075,"text":"第三條建築實踐的就是最新的環保綠建築的功能。它不只材料選擇再生材料,它整個發電系統都是再生能源。所以為什麼德國的這個民主、扣民、公開、實踐及大成的國會建築成為德國現在。每到德國、到柏林都要去學習、參觀、經驗。"},{"start":8350.058,"end":8357.183,"text":"experience的一個重要民主建築。所以反觀看看臺灣我很快速的再跟主席爭取多一點時間。下一頁。"},{"start":8360.529,"end":8386.903,"text":"有在野黨說國會擴建只是想花錢。錯。國會如果擴建、簽建顯然受惠的也不再是我們這些坐在這裡的國會議員。我們要打造的是一個為了新世代的新國會。那時候的新的民意他們需要一個更好的民主象徵的歷史性的建築。下一頁。立法院能不升級嗎?當初為了反攻大陸"},{"start":8388.437,"end":8404.285,"text":"免強屈就於第二高女應漏就檢,把教室當作一場辦公室。」他當然不合用。下一頁。立法院能不升級嗎?立法院就是一個拼裝車。我們在場這麼多媒體朋友,他們的國會連線是擠在我們黨團辦公室前面那個走廊欸。"},{"start":8410.814,"end":8430.676,"text":"立法院有很多的違建就因為因漏就檢立法院的職員們在那個昏暗的擁擠的辦公空間裡面來工作怎麼能夠提升整個辦公環境跟問政績效呢?狹小的空間早已不敷需求而且秘書長你很清楚立法院是有違建的下一頁"},{"start":8433.499,"end":8449.885,"text":"立法院把教室當會議室我秀出來的就是我們吳宗憲委員說他藏了八支麥克風在口袋我才知道原來司法法制委員會有八支麥克風我們常常在審查預算的時候我過去在教育委員會很痛苦每一個委員要發言那個麥克風要傳來傳去地來地去"},{"start":8453.166,"end":8482.006,"text":"就是一個非常落伍的開會空間更不要說我們來後面都會有一個要顯示我們的含氧量二氧化碳濃度的超標的這個設置為什麼要?因為它的通風不夠常常一個小小的辦公室擠進多少個行政官員、幕僚人員、國會助理、立法委員所以才會有開會空間要有二氧化碳濃度超標一場人超標了大家趕快出去休息一下"},{"start":8483.198,"end":8509.089,"text":"這是台灣的國會所以我們在面對歷史國會的擴建、牽涉不是為了這些立法委員想要花錢、想要自肥台灣是世界華人民主的基地台灣是民主同盟國家大家同學、同工戰在一個好的民主的表現的國家台灣值得一個進步的國會"},{"start":8510.68,"end":8526.277,"text":"正如同您一樣。最後一頁,由錫堃院長已經啟動了2021年的專家委員會,也責定了六處的簽建場址。如果簽建不成,原地擴建也是選項。"},{"start":8527.759,"end":8550.206,"text":"由錫昆他創下了這樣的歷史使命我相信韓國瑜院長也應當讓國會的歷史性的重建、牽涉的歷史性的使命要跟上來好嗎我們後續再討論也希望主席我可以請求針對這個主題其實是可以安排共聽會我們讓專業者好好來討論台灣值得一個好的國會謝謝"},{"start":8555.618,"end":8573.102,"text":"謝謝吳委員的提議。好,謝謝祕書長。如果真的立法院能夠簽到一個台灣比較交通的中心啊,我們南部國進智能的委員就不用花那麼多的交通資源了。謝謝吳委員的提議。好,現在我們一前前的宣告休息五分鐘。"},{"start":8944.568,"end":8944.948,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8964.368,"end":8965.028,"text":"主席各位委員同仁"},{"start":8994.389,"end":9020.358,"text":"剛才吳斯堯委員講一句很重要的話台灣是法院世界裡面民主價值的典範這是我們國會的驕傲但是呢我們都知道整個國會改革是本會期中重中之重的法案那整個過程也許今天經過兩禮拜四次會議今天可能委會能夠開多久還在未定之天"},{"start":9021.67,"end":9045.022,"text":"因為副總操終於出現了,也許到執行結束以後,因為接下去有比較深水區的所謂國會改革版本,因為之前新司法所以今天我要再講說那天我們開完會以後,就是禮拜一直接沒收委員會"},{"start":9046.499,"end":9072.386,"text":"法院竟然換言之就是說整個過程來看我們當所有作為他們當招委的時候上禮拜一當招委的時候直接擬押過去所以這種會當然我們會提三位同意來主卻他輔助會委員那禮拜四我們審的時候他還來三位同意他是不讓你開就是我們版本不讓你開"},{"start":9074.028,"end":9099.636,"text":"那禮拜一、這禮拜一也是一樣,這禮拜一是這個另外三法比較不具敏感性的他直接給你三位都議。換言之就是沒收委員會。所以當天我們記者會的標語叫什麼?我會晚割。南白聯手沒收委員會。這是非常嚴重的事情啊。為什麼呢?"},{"start":9100.598,"end":9129.444,"text":"以往藍白一趟過班的時候,若有立法院組織法的委員會、立法院組織法專案報告,只要立法院組織法因為他們有供給不立法的話,他馬上可以提三位都議。國會什麼時候可以走到今天呢?蔣介石在這裡也不敢如此。過去國民黨也曾經國會都出過,我們少數執政時候,他也不敢如此。整個三十年來,這一刻是最荒謬的一刻。"},{"start":9131.294,"end":9153.211,"text":"那我看禮拜二陳希維委員會什麽樣所提的法案對於國會議員參加民意會議要有一些規範乃至於行政所長等等到大陸去要有規範陳希維給你完全封殺本來的民主倒退了30年"},{"start":9155.616,"end":9173.526,"text":"黨會三十年。法院黨過去,從我進來的時候,本本都是多數,我們大部分時間在反對黨。於是乎陳旭迴一致擋案。光馬英九執政那八年,整個法院黨的疑亂都有案子。疑亂都有案子,這樣很驚悚吧?"},{"start":9174.693,"end":9193.332,"text":"那今天從為如此,一個莫說委會、一個陳毅委員把你擋住,請問這個國會還有存在的價值嗎?這國會還亂了下去嗎?這難道不是民主軟膏嗎?今天我們在這裡,好像可以繼續審查事情下去。"},{"start":9194.52,"end":9218.879,"text":"他是默說你執行、默說你所有提案說明、默說你逐一條討論的空間。今天不是國民黨良心發現,等一下傅文綺委員出現的時候,大家都知道傅文綺跟黃國勳兩人是厲害所在。所以我們今天大家好好看。那接下來我要講說"},{"start":9220.84,"end":9243.215,"text":"整個國家在整個選完以後我們一晚開議二月二十到今天兩個月這兩個月時間發生什麼事情呢?整個國家的軸線完全傾斜扭曲天地顛倒北線亂震無所不用其極國會不耐擴錢我要講一句話說請各位注意聽"},{"start":9249.366,"end":9277.097,"text":"全世界沒有一個政黨乃至於曾榮武會表演自殺式的神功特工隊但此時此刻國民黨跟民眾黨胡文綺跟黃國昌兩個連鎖是表演什麼讓大家睜大眼睛看他表演自殺性的神功特工隊何其愚蠢啊我不相信民意不反撲"},{"start":9278.902,"end":9301.124,"text":"他整個國會改革完全脫移憲政框架,以稀修憲的部分他用修法來完成。五八二四是講得很清楚啊,他是中情手段是可以罰款,竟然國民黨版本是二期刑法事後三年以下有期徒刑。"},{"start":9302.421,"end":9324.949,"text":"好!立法院所謂官員一執行的時候以七位陳述記者提供答案以後藐視國會之前撒你一哈你立法院也不可以反執行已經執行修到幾問幾答當然是共同這個時間過去這個代理法院"},{"start":9326.264,"end":9338.804,"text":"國民黨執政的時候吳征宜專門反執勤的而且他口才又好但是這是沒有辦法大家對證的不可以反執勤"},{"start":9340.091,"end":9357.395,"text":"所以包括行政院長一總之因為說稀微陳述一年以下有期徒刑難怪傅文綺在二月初的二月十二就喊出一種一個話大家注意聽一句話當你們民進黨找不到官員來做請問這是未來國會是走向這樣嗎這個比北韓比共和國還糟糕董建勳暫時也不敢如此"},{"start":9369.69,"end":9391.707,"text":"也就是說兩個人黃國昌跟胡文綺兩人所合作的時候可以決定這個台灣的未來他們甚至認為他可以轉動全球兩位胡文綺趕快趕到大陸去哪一個既然要交代反送中法萬一搞到重修"},{"start":9392.688,"end":9416.353,"text":"賴瑞隆等13人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案"},{"start":9421.124,"end":9440.79,"text":"總統表演自殺式,民意不會橫幅嗎?所以黃國昌講了一句話,只要不妨礙他的國會改革,他基本上是人眼旁觀。但是另外一句話叫為虎作倉,這根本就是為虎作倉嘛。"},{"start":9442.161,"end":9458.674,"text":"實問人員旁觀,你天天直播罵柯建民,你安撫一些小草,你認為民意是如此嗎?他今天來執行,從來不面對問題,回避問題,回味舊照,講一些零星的問題,立法機制問題。"},{"start":9460.263,"end":9480.812,"text":"這是紅窩倉自己要去面對的,但是你們兩人合作,這樣合作的時候造成整個國家傷害,對你們政黨的傷害,人民不可能信任你們。尤其我們看到朱立文竟然講說要叫總統來做國情報告,要急問急答,憂於總之情。"},{"start":9486.636,"end":9489.417,"text":"請問總統這種文明報告沒有問題啊當然是質疑問其他還要輸入報告這個作為報告嗎?這違憲的在合憲性底下連住民把這個黨這位黃文綺、黃文昌把他們黨和國家整個毀去掉"},{"start":9510.029,"end":9529.317,"text":"在核心議題下,你要做什麼都沒問題。憲法規定很清楚啊,第四條就來做國情報告。但是憲法的設計上是潛力分立原則,互相制衡的。國家最高、有三條國家最高情任機關就是行政院。"},{"start":9530.424,"end":9554.35,"text":"那個三條規定,立法院的職權,立法院的職權是一節、一宗案、法律案、宣戰、過河條案等等。然後香港政策條件寫得很清楚,總統也是明顯的,他民意紀錄比我們任何一個人還高,他得的做過票。所以香港政策條件講得很清楚,他只派行政院長,他任命的,來立法院做施政報告,也是施政方針。"},{"start":9555.546,"end":9584.746,"text":"有備刑的義務,當然相對,第三條寫得很清楚,相對立法院有執行之前,這是憲法框架上,你創設憲法所謂的東西,然後去做違憲斷證,無限擴權,當然是違憲。我不知道朱英文主席,他在想到什麼地方去。整個,整個,我看到整個在野黨所謂精英從馬英九一降,都是如此。"},{"start":9585.888,"end":9606.261,"text":"我們希望國家不是這樣傾斜的。來久回來可以說要修反省政法,乃至於國安無法都要修。各位,要了解民意在看待你們,歷史這一刻是對台灣極度的影響。我們每一個人都要向憲法低頭。"},{"start":9607.582,"end":9630.319,"text":"這是憲政時刻,所以不要胡說八道,然後每一個民進黨立法院沒有人敢很用力捍衛他的版本,因為無奈狀,因為後面有胡文綺在,後面有黃國昌在。這就是如此嘛,你們很無奈寫在臉上,你們敢搖在內心裡面,我們都很清楚。"},{"start":9631.806,"end":9645.956,"text":"各位,都是立法院,大家同時站起來,如果站出來,捍衛國家尊嚴,捍衛所有爭議,請不要忘記,我最後再陳述,民意一定會反撲,你注意看。好,謝謝我們柯委員。接下來有請政委員天才發言。"},{"start":9670.251,"end":9697.35,"text":"主席．各位委員．有請祕書長請周祕書長祕書長好現法徵修條文第十條第十二項規定國家應依民族意願保障原住民組織地位及政治倡議而且還特別明定要制定"},{"start":9698.328,"end":9726.71,"text":"原住民族基本法以及還有很多相關的法例。在105年8月1號蔡總統就任之後的三個月在8月1號蔡總統特別向原住民族道歉並做了很大的承諾說要制定原住民族自治法"},{"start":9727.608,"end":9753.042,"text":"以及原住民族土地及海域法這是他的承諾在105年8月1號就任之後向全國的人民承諾會很快的將原住民族自治法及原住民族土地及海域法送到立法院甚至行政院"},{"start":9754.994,"end":9779.655,"text":"的秘書長在一百零五年年底也特別先是還且講了兩次會在一百零五年十二月底以前把這個原住民族土地及海域法送到立法院但是因為第八、第九屆、第十屆的立法院民進黨絕對多數"},{"start":9782.529,"end":9807.239,"text":"所以相關他們不需要的法律他們就請行政院就不要送來所以已經承諾的事情寧可防悔不送來是這樣的一個情形所以呢本席跟高金素梅立委特別提出這個立法院組織法第三十三條的條文因為現行的條文對"},{"start":9809.997,"end":9817.302,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條"},{"start":9839.025,"end":9855.888,"text":"立法院過去都很重視原住民但是在過去的8年來我們非常非常的失望我就舉個例子就業服務法民國81年三讀通過其中24條當時的憲法還是叫三包"},{"start":9865.168,"end":9882.561,"text":"但是當時的就業服務法三讀通過的時候原住民的立委說三包要行政院的草案送到立法院是三包就業服務法原住民的立委說要改為原住民雖然憲法"},{"start":9884.545,"end":9910.973,"text":"在民國83年8月1號才改為上報才改為那個原住民但是具備服務法在立法院尊重原住民的情況之下在民國81年具備服務法就用原住民這三個字所以立法院是一個展現人民意志的地方而基於少數的原住民"},{"start":9912.13,"end":9935.646,"text":"怎樣去落實政府、中華民國政府怎樣去落實憲法徵修條文第十條第十二項的規定就是要靠立法院所以要靠立法院就必須怎樣去重視原住民的立法委員的意見所以本席跟高金素梅立委特別提到"},{"start":9938.044,"end":9961.512,"text":"對於這個黨團的成立,原住民立委應該要有一個自主性,而不要受到相關的這些,因為加入原住民黨團的時候,原來的那個政黨就必須要退出,像這樣的怎麼樣去解決,所以本席提出這樣的一個條文。秘書長你的意見如何?"},{"start":9962.475,"end":9962.495,"text":"案 。"},{"start":9976.578,"end":10000.003,"text":"檔團第一項裡面是排除嘛但是那個總數啊黨團的這一個總數現在是五個那我有跟他報告如果這一個立法政策決定要修正的話那就要加上那幾個文字的我已經有跟高金委員報告過我這邊其實文字是可以再檢討但怎麼樣去那個去保障這個部分"},{"start":10000.922,"end":10021.19,"text":"另外就是上次有跟這個秘書長稍微提了一下原住民的立法委員的選期因為是台、彭、金吧但是現在立法院的所有的對立委個別的相關的權益都是用7億的立委的去規劃像這個"},{"start":10025.427,"end":10028.709,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":10052.558,"end":10077.894,"text":"從新走雲到滿洲鄉還要兩個小時六分鐘所以這麼遠的時間一個小時加三十四分加兩個小時加六分等於是三個多小時將近四個小時我只是舉例子如果從花蓮出發要到滿洲鄉也一樣搭火車到枋寮三個小時三十五分鐘枋寮到滿洲要一個多小時"},{"start":10079.053,"end":10079.393,"text":"條文修正草"},{"start":10105.967,"end":10129.506,"text":"好,謝謝我們政委員。接下來請紅委員孟凱發言。紅委員孟凱不在,我們接下來請王委員紅薇發言。好,謝謝主席。我請那個周秘書長。好,請周秘書長。"},{"start":10135.352,"end":10154.361,"text":"二十三號有關於廢死的憲法法庭的辯論,引起社會各界非常多的關心。在整個的辯論庭裡面,其中法務部表達了世上現在的死刑是何現。"},{"start":10155.962,"end":10169.812,"text":"而且在法務部的代表當庭的意見他也講得非常清楚他講到世界各國的做法還有在整個的經歷FACE的一個歷程那其中其實法務部他們比較同意的他們所持的意見說這樣的議題應該是留給立法部門來決定"},{"start":10182.961,"end":10183.682,"text":"法務部的意見您同意嗎?"},{"start":10201.755,"end":10227.663,"text":"如果從這一個大法官他的執掌當然他可以做解釋啦那如果解釋以後他的解釋結果是怎麼樣那如果是說比如說他認為現在必須要修憲那你那邊要修必須要修法那當然會要走到立法院來就必須走到立法院來現在越來越多其實包含我也注意到民進黨的一些立委也都認為喔"},{"start":10228.883,"end":10241.101,"text":"要不要廢死應該是由立法部門來決定您作為我們立法院的秘書長你支持嗎其實廢不廢死應該要由立法部門來決定"},{"start":10243.577,"end":10267.006,"text":"所以你不願意表示意見那另外就是如果大法官做出釋憲說此刑是違憲的那麼當然在過去的慣例上就會讓我們立法部門來修法那麼立法部門如果我們拒絕修法可不可以"},{"start":10268.491,"end":10292.863,"text":"這會發生以前的司法院組織法的時候立法院就沒有配合了就沒有配合修法所以事實上是可以不配合修法對不對有這個例過了就是前例有司法院組織法然後在立法院並不配合大法官的釋憲結果來修法所以我們是可以不配合修法"},{"start":10294.209,"end":10315.799,"text":"我只能說有這個理由。我想羅委員特別有,我有看到他昨天的對外的官員。我想不只羅委員,其實我們立法院非常多位的委員。我相信連民進黨的很多委員也不會配合修法。這個配合修法還得了。所以按照慣例,我們可以不配合修法。"},{"start":10316.539,"end":10317.339,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10338.003,"end":10357.796,"text":"好 廳長好因為今天我們討論的是我們立法院那個職權行使法但是呢在我們這一次的憲法法庭的這個各項意見裡面我們先撇開有一些這個力求主張廢死的團體的一些我認為是非常極端性言論不談"},{"start":10359.077,"end":10363.32,"text":"其中大法官詹森林他的談話其實是引起非常大的注目而且也非常大的質疑詹森林他說大法官的判決不一定要跟民意去妥協這點大家覺得非常質疑那他的立論基礎是什麼呢"},{"start":10381.013,"end":10397.839,"text":"他說因為大法官是經過立法院來同意的而法官你們沒有民意基礎喔他說大法官是有民意基礎因為是立法院來同意他擔任大法官"},{"start":10400.02,"end":10418.23,"text":"法官因為你沒有民基處,所以你當然沒有這個權利去判處死刑。請問一下廳長,有關於這位大法官的意見,你同意嗎?主席這邊提醒,請本宇之權回答。今天討論的是法案巡檔。"},{"start":10419.52,"end":10422.362,"text":"主席,等一下時間暫停,時間暫停,我有權宜問題。你說。我也有權宜問題。欸,主席我覺得你這樣不對喔,抱歉我也要幫王宏偉講話喔。王宏偉質詢的時候他也沒跟你做任何詢問,也沒叫你做任何才事,你可以打斷他嗎?對啊。你不可以打斷他。主席你這樣是不正義的。"},{"start":10439.952,"end":10445.314,"text":"他要不要回答?委員長自己會決定。他自己會決定。你憑什麼下次到期要求時間暫停或延長?你要延長時間請徵詢主席的意見。時間延長一分鐘。他現在在質詢台,他在質詢台是他的質詢時間。"},{"start":10460.74,"end":10460.76,"text":"談論中﹗"},{"start":10484.363,"end":10485.144,"text":"對,因為我覺得今天就是我也要為很多廣大的民眾來詢問啊"},{"start":10492.397,"end":10516.132,"text":"這當然很重要啊我不瞭解為什麼我們的主席要阻止阻止官員來回答他也有他的自由意志啊 對不對那我剛才的詢問聽講你同不同意法官因為沒有民意基礎所以他不應該判死刑你同意這樣的論述嗎"},{"start":10521.107,"end":10533.925,"text":"你下面很多法官喔報告委員我今天是就立法院之間行司法來代表本院回答那關於剛才您所推薦的那個大法官當"},{"start":10535.327,"end":10556.263,"text":"延遲辯論停的發言,那我想我們也不辯表示意見,這是大法官他的意見。所以你們就是自己閹割自己的權利啊。我要特別講的,大法官竟然以他是立法院同意,然後他具有所謂的民意基礎。如果最有民意基礎的,那不應該是立法機關嗎?那還輪得到由大法官來釋憲嗎?"},{"start":10560.626,"end":10574.418,"text":"所以我為什麼今天要特別去做這樣的詢問也要凸顯在整個憲法法庭裡面大法官他的這個言論之荒腔走板"},{"start":10575.492,"end":10577.112,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草"},{"start":10597.777,"end":10603.9,"text":"之前就做了制止。我也尊重我們廳長的回答但是我覺得今天我們的主席事實上是剝奪了我們的一個質詢權。以上。謝謝王委員的詢答。我們主席這邊說明剛剛我們是請司法院行政訴訟及懲戒廳的廳長"},{"start":10622.523,"end":10639.84,"text":"那主席我們邀請政府機關官員來列席是就我們本次會議的議案內容來進行詢答主席提醒委員那麼如果說委員要關心的議題我想我們兩位輪值召委都很樂意"},{"start":10640.981,"end":10661.635,"text":"來設法安排相關的議程就針對議題的內容邀請適當的政府機關的列席人員前來進行說明那當然行政訴訟及懲戒廳的廳長能否回答今天議題以外的其他問題我們尊重行政機關跟詢問委員的權利主席在這裡說明那也請各位委員在發言當中"},{"start":10662.395,"end":10691.494,"text":"若有任何的權宜問題,例如說需要時間暫停,也請透過主席來指示會議工作人員。主席一向在發言時間上跟發言內容上都充分的尊重各位委員的權利。那這位剛剛的內容呢,如果說稍微打斷我們會議的程序,也在這裡跟所有的與會委員表示一些歉意。後續我會盡量的讓委員暢所欲言。那必要的提醒內容呢,我們就請適度的官員,請你適度的了解。接下來我們有請賴委員事保發言。"},{"start":10692.655,"end":10696.339,"text":"賴委員世保不在,我們有請翁委員小林發言。"},{"start":10712.891,"end":10741.573,"text":"安委員好好的對於這個這次立法院好諸位多位委員有提出國會改革法案我在這裡我表示我是支持國會全面改革不管是外部改革內部改改革或是針對我們自己立法院的軟體硬體各方面的改革我都認為有必要性尤其是我們這個我出"},{"start":10742.073,"end":10745.474,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":10773.889,"end":10782.344,"text":"將國會就本身自己的改革可以做一些適度的檢討、研析然後提出相關的法案。那麼陳茹剛剛"},{"start":10785.405,"end":10797.778,"text":"而吳思良委員有提到我們現在國會辦公室呢確實是老舊空間又狹窄那麼很多地方是不足的就空間使用是沒有效率而且也不足的那麼在網傳就網路上面報這個網路上傳"},{"start":10803.604,"end":10817.999,"text":"傳說有委員在辦公室養狗而且還有占用會議室等等這些行徑。不知道秘書長這邊有沒有指揮我們的立法院的同仁去調查瞭解是否真有這樣的一個情形。"},{"start":10819.059,"end":10840.564,"text":"那是大概以前的事吧我是看好像最近好像也還有繼續有這樣子一個新聞如果沒有的話那可能也要請立法院這裡做一個這個更正這個新聞否則的話大家真的會一直會認為我們在立法院裡面是不是到現在還有委員這個戰友辦公室會議室養寵物"},{"start":10842.344,"end":10844.926,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":10866.687,"end":10871.19,"text":"就是民進黨委員他們在這次提的比較像是對內的這個國會改革的法案裡面我也發現了有擴權的現象有擴權的這個問題那在賴瑞隆委員所提出來的法案當中主要是針對立法委員行為法的這個幾個條文的修法其中在第二條裡面"},{"start":10892.722,"end":10897.952,"text":"非常明顯他就擴大了現在立法委員關係人的範圍。不知道"},{"start":10901.243,"end":10905.184,"text":"秘書長這裡怎麼樣去看我們賴委員這裡所提出來的擴大立法委員關係人的範圍那麼將關係人從配偶到兩親等的親屬甚至還連代替立委處理事務者事務的相關人員全部都納入立法委員的關係人的範圍裡面"},{"start":10927.911,"end":10943.158,"text":"我正在想是未來幫我們清潔的那些清潔人員或是幫我們處理一些簡單影印事物的公讀生全部都要納入到這裡所謂的立委的關心人的範圍。不知道周秘書長怎麼看這樣子的一個修法?"},{"start":10944.226,"end":10961.113,"text":"因為我大概拜讀了幾次賴委員的提案尤其對於關西人的他是引用立法跟有稅法裡面把他納過來所以我才會特別說"},{"start":10962.859,"end":10986.555,"text":"這有立法委員有沒有特別在對這一個的屬性在特別規範啊那因為關係人擴大了相當大所以我才在剛才報告來說這一個有委員來做這個立法政策的選擇因為這個關係人照立法的話是範圍是相當大的一個沒有錯其實秘書長確實是都有詳讀每個委員所提出來的法案"},{"start":10990.498,"end":10991.699,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":11003.042,"end":11017.77,"text":"關西人擬具擴大到公費助理、代替立法委員處理事務者以及包含跟立委共同生活的其他的非直系親屬的家屬等等其實它的擬具擴全範圍非常之廣、非常之大但這個部分會涉及到未來這些關西人他都受到利益衝突法的規範以及可能"},{"start":11029.095,"end":11046.526,"text":"還有相關的行為行動各方面的約束所以這樣子的一個條文才是真正典型民進黨在國會改革上面的擴權條文另外還有一個部分就是在賴委員這裡所提出來的立法委員行為法的第十條他特別針對本人及關係人前往中國"},{"start":11055.422,"end":11075.149,"text":"我把那個條文念一下好了在這個他所提出來的修法第十條的規定就曾經參加立法院命令會議的立法委員其本人及其關係人於任期中或聘過關係程序期間前往中國及港澳地區應向立法院報備並且於網站公開請問秘書長這裡的中國是指哪裡"},{"start":11081.633,"end":11085.939,"text":"這一個應該是大陸地區啦,但是他的法條是寫中國啦,所以我也報告了說特別..."},{"start":11098.541,"end":11100.944,"text":"我必須要講透過修法草案去這個"},{"start":11114.264,"end":11117.065,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文擬具"},{"start":11134.951,"end":11155.665,"text":"這邊應該是指的是大陸地區我不反對要將這個祕密會議參加祕密會議的立法委員那未來對於他的行為做比較高的這個約束可是在這裡的法條上面這樣的一個用語基本上是這個違反我們現在中華民國憲法以及兩岸園區觀以及兩岸人民關係條例裡面的相關規範是"},{"start":11162.098,"end":11182.994,"text":"這個非常不適當的這樣子的一個修法同時大家要知道我剛剛所唸那個條文裡面本人及其關係人只要未來前往大陸地區及港澳地區所有的行為都必須要向立法院報備還有要在網站上面公開我非常支持秘書長在您的報告裡面所講的這個基本上已經有嚴重的侵害到這個立法委員以及關係人這麼廣大的這個"},{"start":11191.661,"end":11203.941,"text":"關心人的行動自由以及個人資訊隱私權等等這些的問題所以我們就知道相較起來國民黨的國會改革法案我們基本上是要樹立"},{"start":11206.072,"end":11232.977,"text":"全責相符．要落實全責相符以及需要這是捍衛我們自己立法院的質詢權利我們要強化立法院的核心的職權而不是像這個民進黨委員這裡所提出來的國會改革版本那麼他基本上是打擊範圍更大而且把一些基本上並不是那麼重要跟本案無相關的一些當事人全部都要納入到這個"},{"start":11234.597,"end":11235.478,"text":"條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":11250.287,"end":11270.223,"text":"在這次大法官針對死刑釋憲的案件的處理上面我蠻遺憾的立法院對於這樣的一個死刑的釋憲沒有提出立法院的立場從權力分立的角度來看"},{"start":11271.328,"end":11284.143,"text":"立法院應該要捍衛或者是至少要去闡明立法權的職權範圍在哪裡我們立法權的核心職權在哪裡跟司法權跟釋憲權中間的這個界限"},{"start":11289.228,"end":11306.598,"text":"案,則不代表全體立法委員的立法職權去向憲法法院說明立法權的核心價值以及要維護我們立法權的重要性,只有本黨團"},{"start":11307.819,"end":11326.224,"text":"案,我們有提出法庭之友的意見,那麼向憲法法院來表達我們對於捍衛維護立法的核心價值來做說明。那就這個部分我也希望未來只要是司法院在審理相關的法律的這個"},{"start":11328.264,"end":11338.955,"text":"是否合憲的解釋的時候,我希望我們的立法院都能夠勇於認識,積極地去表達我們立法委員的意見。謝謝。"},{"start":11360.058,"end":11360.798,"text":"民進黨版的版本明明是強化自我約束"},{"start":11386.066,"end":11402.116,"text":"強化私有約束就是我們對二清等公費助理的規範希望大家能夠相關更公開透明私有約束這怎麼會是擴權呢這是一個立委知道自己的權力很大利益迴避等等應該要強化"},{"start":11404.358,"end":11428.14,"text":"更有趣的事情是說可能歐委員是新立委對我們已經修過的法律並不熟悉新修過的公職員利益迴避了相關的法規第三條的文字民進黨是參考這個文字希望能夠在我們立法委員的行為法中的第二條跟第二條之一能夠update"},{"start":11429.201,"end":11448.478,"text":"所以我想這個翁委員可能對法律要不然就是有專業特別的見解要不然就是沒有update我們最新的法規啦那我想借這機會說明一下那再回來我想針對我自己的提案跟我們民進黨納入的性別平等法案做一些說明那首先呢我很高興剛剛"},{"start":11450.059,"end":11470.545,"text":"民眾黨總召黃國昌表示:「老實講,我個人是贊成性別平等的。性騷也好,性侵害也好,性歧視也好,都放進來沒問題。但我的問題是立法技術的問題,然後後面講了一串其他行為放不放。"},{"start":11470.905,"end":11471.365,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":11493.2,"end":11494.141,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院組織法部分條"},{"start":11511.075,"end":11524.786,"text":"美國、英國、法國都很明確有相關的規定那其他國家他們有立出來我跟大家分享一下2017年美國的眾議院那因為蜜兔事件爆發他們還嚴格規範新會期的前90天從議員到職員到國會助理"},{"start":11531.411,"end":11545.986,"text":"都必須要接受反性騷、反歧視的培訓而且要求國會議員的辦公室都要張貼相關的規定美國眾議院倫理委員會得主動或依申訴調查之類"},{"start":11546.627,"end":11549.548,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法"},{"start":11576.377,"end":11590.935,"text":"都必須要在議會裏面制定相關的規範。」那這個部分就是我們可以看到這麼多的民主國家都有這個部分那台灣呢其實我們在國會的女性比例的部分早就超過40%"},{"start":11592.677,"end":11607.995,"text":"那剛剛有提通過相關國會性少規範的美國其實跟英國跟法國都遠低於國會的女性比例的40%台灣的女性議員在2023年的排名是全球25名"},{"start":11609.096,"end":11627.91,"text":"美國66名英國48名法國33名所以其實我們在性別平等這個部分亞洲第一名可是我們在國會的性別平等法案的進度遠輸於這些在性別平等在國會女性參政比低於我們的國家所以呢"},{"start":11628.803,"end":11643.193,"text":"最後我還有一點時間也跟大家分享一下立法院到底需不需要這個性騷性別平等的國會改革我認為非常需要為什麼因為根據我們立法院我自己也是我們性別平等委員會的委員2020年3月公佈的"},{"start":11647.776,"end":11652.278,"text":"針對國會助理的匿名性騷擾調查問卷有520個國會助理匿名貼問卷其中有13個人說他本人被性騷擾17個人現場目睹過性騷擾"},{"start":11663.804,"end":11684.177,"text":"兩百零九人就是有四成的人受訪的時候匿名調查的時候認為立法院性騷擾很嚴重所以我想這個部分他們直指的很多都是立委本人的性騷我想今天能夠說出來的人真的非常非常的少所以這個真的是立法院國會改革請國民黨"},{"start":11685.898,"end":11710.848,"text":"民進黨都一起支持那也請國民黨的委員剛剛民進黨總召黃國昌已經說他個人支持希望是黨團支持國民黨的委員也不要因為你們自己發生過有性騷的立委法院認定或者是總召是嫌疑犯那就不敢表達意見謝謝謝謝范委員那因為接下來輪到本席諮詢我先休息一分鐘我跟代理主席討論一下"},{"start":11782.517,"end":11786.521,"text":"好那現在有請眾嘉賓交委詢答主席因為待會會超過時間要不要先處理一下會議時間好那今天主席就宣布今天的上午就會議到眾嘉賓委員質詢完我們先中午稍事休息下午兩點繼續開會謝謝"},{"start":11810.544,"end":11830.895,"text":"主席、在堂委員先進、列席政務機關市長、官員會長、觀眾夥伴、媒體記者女士先生在本席就今天的討論法案進行發言之前我先做一個說明因為身為會議的主席輪值召委我們經常遇到散會的情況在這裡借此跟委員會也做個說明一般根據立法院的議事規則第25條、26條、27條、25條"},{"start":11835.598,"end":11855.992,"text":"主席可以決定休息的時間在討論進行的過程當中隨時可以宣告。但是二十六條一案一閉如果今天議案已經討論完畢了那當然就是自然散會或者說散會時間已屆五點半已經到了那也自然散會除非有種情況散會時間已到但是討論還想繼續進行那麼就會有提出一個延長時間根據二十七條提出一個動議延長開會時間"},{"start":11864.238,"end":11884.041,"text":"但是呢有可能雖然散會時間還沒到議案也還沒討論完畢但是在場的多數不想要討論他就會根據26條第二項提出一個散會動議散會動議一經提出不需討論直接表決這也說明了在上週四為什麼本席輪值召委的時候明明在場的多數委員他們想要散會"},{"start":11893.803,"end":11913.911,"text":"但是他們卻在2點39分提交散會動議的同時本席宣告休息的時候他們不願意離開他們在現場等待的目的不是為了要開會是為了要散會他們在現場等會要表決的目的是不讓別人繼續開會討論這一點作為一個會議的主席我必須說明當本席在上週四下午5點25分"},{"start":11924.045,"end":11952.51,"text":"上會時間將屆滿的時候那時候在場的民進黨委員提出一個延長時間至當日晚上12點讓大家想開會想討論的充分討論但是無奈根據會議規則議事規則我們必須先處理當時多數的國民黨所提出來的上會動議於是國民黨的多數委員終於從下午的2點40分等到他們到5點半其實齁"},{"start":11953.59,"end":11969.413,"text":"五點半時間到了他們不用提散會動議也散會了啦再三的證明他們敢在時間屆滿前提出散會動議就是不要讓我們討論議案就這樣而已那很可惜的呢在場的委員目前國民黨在場委員之外我們謝委員謝謝捧場啦那我繼續來講一下因為為什麼需要討論本來照說今天是尋答我應該請周秘書長來就尋答但是我自己底下呢我就之前的幾位委員的發言我們來進行討論下一頁"},{"start":11982.323,"end":12004.244,"text":"剛剛有黃國昌委員提出了為什麼我們不去處理他所提到的幾個問題我們先看這次在我們委員會當中有立法委員行為法有提出修正草案有立法院執權刑事法有各黨提出草案台灣民眾黨只有提出執權刑事法的草案他並沒有去修立法委員行為法"},{"start":12004.784,"end":12013.989,"text":"立法院行為法主要是民進黨委員提出來的。這裡面從第一章到第七章對於委員個人的行為規範講得很清楚。至於職權行事法講的是立法院如何行使職權。接下來我們往下看。那麼剛剛黃委員說到了他說收錢、喬事、關說司法、關說假事等等等。"},{"start":12027.197,"end":12040.73,"text":"這些在立法委員行為法第四章遊說及政治捐獻很清楚啊16條啊要遵守遊說法規定啊18條啊要遵守政治宣言的規定啊條文都有寫如果台灣民眾黨的委員認為不夠規範不夠嚴格請提出立法委員行法修法"},{"start":12046.294,"end":12059.882,"text":"不要對著民進黨提出的立法委員行為法提出的說沒有修到我們看看立法委員我們范委員提出什麼意見我們往下看立法院行為法當中第七條應該共同維護會議秩序這是倫理規範意識規則對秘密會議有所規範我們來看一下目前第七條當中的行為規範一款到第十款"},{"start":12068.928,"end":12095.61,"text":"都是立法委員個人問政在委員會裏面在公共場所裏面都應該要遵守的但是這裏面在我們之前范雲委員所提出的性騷擾就是在議場進行議事討論的時候所發生的難道不需要在這個倫理規範當中加以討論嗎好所以呢現行法不是完全無規範我們修法就是按現行的框架走也請民臺灣民眾黨包括黃總召要留守瞭解往下看"},{"start":12096.604,"end":12101.846,"text":"接下來我們來看今天的我們國會改革,有請周秘書長。秘書長請。好秘書長,我們往下看齁。請問一下,來。也請保護司的我們的處長是吧,專門委員,張專門委員。嘿,張官委。這個就是您的職權範圍內,請本瑜之前做回答。"},{"start":12121.617,"end":12142.784,"text":"請告訴我們周秘書長如果有某A委員在議事過程中推擠僱用腹部頂住B委員的背部事後又表示我又不是餓死鬼用肚子又不會懷孕說明我性騷擾請問這個夠不夠成性騷擾請說明我們性騷擾是有定義啦好有定義那這個有沒有接近性騷擾的定義需要再判斷一下"},{"start":12146.687,"end":12152.108,"text":"案例二 有C立委跟記者下班後聚餐,然後突然對記者抱頭強吻。如果這種情況發生,算不算新騷?算不算?"},{"start":12171.735,"end":12201.107,"text":"因為我沒有具名喔假設狀況算不算我們性騷擾法是規定如果不及抗拒而有這些不及抗拒好謝謝來來秘書長謝謝請回秘書長下一頁如果案例一案例二適用哪個法律適用性別平等工作法還是適用性騷擾防治法你判斷一下我特別請專門委員回去就要判斷看你了解應該應該是照性騷擾防治法來處理吧為什麼不適用性別平等工作法"},{"start":12203.41,"end":12225.09,"text":"因為立法委員不是立法院僱用的員工啊性別平等工作法只保障工作職場上受僱者軍公教人員不包含立法委員所以他只能用性騷擾防治法由主管機關臺北市政府就位於臺北市轄區所在的立法院內的性騷擾行為進行防治是不是這樣"},{"start":12225.931,"end":12255.405,"text":"因為方委員在姓蕾平等的裡面有特別希望把立法委員也歸換在內。好,所以我們就是今天提案嘛。立法院內的申訴處處受限,立法委員成為加害人的時候,很難透過現有的程序處理。難道立法委員不需要自律嗎?所以我們定在立法委員行為法下一頁。好,這裡面就是知道第一款到第十款,沒有一條是有爆發性騷擾的行為。所以民進黨,如果我們加入性騷擾的一個倫理規範,你支不支持?"},{"start":12256.5,"end":12278.068,"text":"我不反對。好,不反對喔。你是不反對而已啦。那相對的不像章委員那麼的一個支持。好,往下一頁。好。案例三。泄露秘密會的內容責任有某個第一立委在院內的秘密會拒簽戒協書涉嫌為謀利而泄露軍事秘密給境外的軍火商。請問你認為第一立委的行為可能構成什麼犯罪?你能回答嗎?很困難。好,往下一頁。"},{"start":12286.553,"end":12315.658,"text":"其實刑法第109條第1項、第2項洩漏或交付關於中華民國國防因秘密之文書等等這要處一年以上、七年以下如果洩漏給外國或其派遣之人三年以上、十年以下國家機密保護法第三十二條第1項、第2項洩漏或交付核定的國家機密一年以上、七年以下交付前項的話到大陸地區香港、澳門、境外敵對勢力三年以上、十年以下民主黨你覺得有沒有很嚴重?是不是很嚴重的一個罪行?"},{"start":12318.122,"end":12345.91,"text":"我問你嚴不嚴重?這個嚴不嚴重?三年以上十年以下嚴不嚴重?當然在一般來講三年以上的罪行都很嚴重好往下一頁所以案例是洩漏秘密會的內容的責任假如這個第一立委他並沒有當場洩漏半年後他要到北京參加交流專訪要不要申請許可?現行法要不要申請許可?現行法沒有規範現行法沒有規範來我告訴你要的往下一頁看"},{"start":12347.171,"end":12371.648,"text":"兩案條例第九條、第三項、第四項、檢認實質等要內政務許可。政務人員、縣市省還有涉及國安機密人員要經過內政務國安會、法務部、陸委會的審查會許可。請問,立法委員有沒有這個規範範圍內?有沒有規範範圍內?立法院立法委員有沒有規範範圍內?有沒有?立法院有沒有人會涉及國安機密?"},{"start":12374.022,"end":12395.918,"text":"有沒有可能涉及國安機密?在立法院裡面有沒有任何人員有可能涉及國安機密?我是問你嘛,有沒有可能立法院涉及國安機密?如果你說沒有,我問隔壁的外國委員會、外交官委員會,他每次看秘密會是開什麼意思的?有沒有?立法院有沒有涉及國家機密?很困難回答嗎?就是有嘛!"},{"start":12397.732,"end":12417.927,"text":"請問你立法院過去有涉及國家機密的人員,你有根據兩岸條例,立法院有去向這些單位進行報告或許可嗎?有沒有?你認為立法院要不要?有沒有限縮我們立法院之權?有沒有侵害我們憲政機關的權利?你可能認為有或沒有,很簡單,不好回答嗎?"},{"start":12421.871,"end":12443.065,"text":"這不是委員之間的行為,這是立法院職權行使涉及到國防機密問題。你身為秘書長,你不曉得要不要適用這個第九條,往下看。錄委會副主委來本席召集的公聽會的時候,他說,監察院也都有向錄委會提報管制人員名單,只要有公文列為機密以上的接觸人員,都要納入範圍。"},{"start":12445.984,"end":12469.852,"text":"民主黨監察院都有喔!監察院現在有憲法所賦予的調查權接觸到國防機密接觸到國家機密他會列什麼管制人員立法院有沒有還在問我告訴你啦監察院目前根據兩條條例提報的26人政務人員16人就包括監察委員依國家機密保護法的有44人民主黨"},{"start":12473.137,"end":12485.598,"text":"你身為立法院秘書長,你難道認為同樣的是縣政機關監察院要受兩岸條例第九條的規範?你立法院到目前有沒有?是不是0個?有沒有報過?"},{"start":12486.873,"end":12507.874,"text":"說有沒有報告?所以請你回去查回來再跟朋友們報告到底立法院從古到今第九條開始以來有沒有報告好所以民意代表應受到公開的檢驗我們立法院的議事規則還有立法院的行為法應該修法拒簽保密協議不得參加秘密會議秘密委員員附中應該報備跟公開往下一頁"},{"start":12511.497,"end":12514.285,"text":"所以今天我們的結論就很簡單剛剛有委員提到當然"},{"start":12519.298,"end":12540.428,"text":"以本席的立場我會寫中國那以我們兩岸條例他會寫大陸地區、港澳地區我們在修法的時候大家可以表達為什麼我一直希望在場的國民黨委員等到下午恢復開會的時候請留下來一起討論把各黨的版本當作差異說清楚講明白不要躲在三位動議後面"},{"start":12541.748,"end":12557.561,"text":"憑著人數多數優勢一來就要散會我們徹底誠懇的希望下午兩點重新開會的時候在下午五點半會議時間未屆滿前今天的討論事項未一避前請在場的委員想討論的"},{"start":12558.502,"end":12572.409,"text":"不要提出散會動議本席剛才已經示範過了議事規則252627除非是議案還沒結束前開會時間還沒屆滿前你不想討論請自行離開不要提散會動議在這裡再次作上宣告謝謝謝謝中交委的諮詢也請秘書長請回"},{"start":12581.425,"end":12604.378,"text":"好,所有登記法院委員均已發言完畢,巡查結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關的資料或以書面答覆者,請相關機關盡速送交個別委員及本會。現在我們上午那個委員傅坤祺、吳宗憲所提書面質詢均列入記錄刊登公報,並請相關機關以書面答覆。上午會議進行到此,下午兩點繼續開會,現在休息。"},{"start":19482.185,"end":19509.134,"text":"好繼續開會我們進行討論事項那請議事人員就討論事項各案的提案條文一併宣讀宣讀時間大約35分鐘那如有修正動議請一併宣讀宣讀後即進行討論請宣讀討論事項一立法院組織法部分條文修正草案委員賴瑞隆等提案第三條處第一項第二具修正為由立法委員以記名投票分別互選產生其餘未修正"},{"start":19510.41,"end":19537.763,"text":"第五條除第四項首具前增訂參加秘密會議之立法委員、列席人員及本院員工等均應竊竭保密協議並禁止攜帶任何通訊產品進入拒絕竊竊者不得參加秘密會議其餘未修正民進黨黨團提案第十四條除第二項末具後增訂並兼任本院資通安全長推動及監督院內資通安全相關事務其餘未修正"},{"start":19539.264,"end":19565.767,"text":"第十五條除增定第七款為七資通安全處令第八款至第十二款由原第七款至第十一款條文遞移其餘未修正。第十九條之二資通安全處長禮下列事項一關於議事資通安全之整體規劃系統分析設計建置及維護事項二關於委員服務資通安全之整體規劃系統分析設計建置及維護事項"},{"start":19567.108,"end":19586.111,"text":"三）關於行政、資通安全之整體規劃系統分析、設計建置及維護事項。四）關於資通安全之規劃與執行事項。五）其他有關資通安全事項。第二四條除將條文中處長六人修正為七人、副處長六人修正為七人"},{"start":19587.645,"end":19595.271,"text":"秘書11人修正為12人,編審11人修正為12人,科長31人至38人修正為31人至42人,專員28人至37人修正為28人至41人,科員52人至71人修正為52人至75人,其餘未修正。"},{"start":19612.216,"end":19632.712,"text":"第28條除第一項默劇修正為得聘用教育人員任用資格之教授、副教授、助理教授、講師、資格者其餘未修正委員賴瑞隆等提案第32條第一項至第三項未修正申訂第四項立法委員及各黨團之公費助理"},{"start":19633.713,"end":19644.825,"text":"應予以法制化其相關資格條件及待遇福利等得比照本院約聘僱人員由立法院會商行政院考試院定之,自中華民國某年某院某日施行。"},{"start":19646.892,"end":19670.571,"text":"委員高金素梅等提案第32條、第一項至第三項未修正、增訂第四項立法院因編列預算補助立法委員應選區服務員遼闊、地理環境、交通狀況、氣候條件等因素而產生之交通住宿等不便費用,其實施辦法標準及其他應遵行之事項由立法院另定之。"},{"start":19672.932,"end":19692.513,"text":"委員高金素梅等提案第三十三條除第二項第四具中四人以上修正為三人以上另增訂第三項每屆具原住民身份之立法委員得依其意願由該屆具原住民身份之立法委員依前項規定組成政團不受第一項立法委員依其所屬政黨參加黨團之限制"},{"start":19694.955,"end":19720.613,"text":"若為全國部分區及僑居國外國民選出者不應組成黨團上司黨籍不適用公職人員選舉罷免法第73條第二項之規定令第四項至第八項有緣第三項至第七項條文第一並將第四項具首前項修正為第二項其餘未修正民進黨黨團提案第三十三條之三"},{"start":19722.813,"end":19750.572,"text":"立法院為有效發揮議事運作及提升國會功能應及早規劃國會擴建簽建案。二）立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案。委員賴瑞隆等提案第二條本法所稱立法委員關係人系指下列人員一、立法委員之配偶或共同生活之家屬二、立法委員之二親等以內親屬三、立法委員或其配偶"},{"start":19751.966,"end":19778.265,"text":"信託財產之受託人、四﹐立法委員之公費助理及其他受其指揮監督之助理、五﹐第一款之第四款所列人員擔任負責人、董事、監察人、經理人、執行業務之股東或顧問之營利事業或尤其擔任理監事之法人團體、六﹐第一款之第四款所列人員之配偶及未成年子女、七﹐其他代理立法委員處理事務者、"},{"start":19781.584,"end":19793.016,"text":"第二條之一本法所稱利益系指立法院行使職權不當增加其本人或其關係人包括財產上及非財產上之利益之價值"},{"start":19794.752,"end":19819.306,"text":"財產上利益如下﹐一、動產、不動產﹐二、現金存款、外幣、有價證券﹐三﹐債券或其他財產上權利﹐四﹐其他具有經濟價值或得以金錢交易取得之利益﹐非財產上利益﹐包括有利立法委員或其關係人與政府機關公立學校、公營事業機關之任用、升遷、調動及其他人事措施。"},{"start":19820.367,"end":19834.325,"text":"委員范雲等提案第七條,第一項未修正,暫定第二項,立法委員不得有性騷擾或性別歧視之言、詞或行為。第三項由委員第二項條文第一並將手具中前項修正為第一項。"},{"start":19835.846,"end":19853.298,"text":"徵定第四項違反第二項者主席德交紀律委員會並由紀律委員會邀請具性騷擾事件調查專業素養與性別意識之專家學者進行調查做成調查報告及處理建議後役處其餘未修正。"},{"start":19854.861,"end":19882.511,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第七條之一立法委員不得有性騷擾或性別歧視之言詞或行為違反前項規定者由立法院紀律委員會邀請具性別平權專業之學者專家進行調查做成調查報告及處理之建議後提包院會議處委員賴瑞隆等提案第十條除第一項莫具後增訂參加祕密會議之立法委員列席人員及本院員"},{"start":19883.746,"end":19895.542,"text":"以及本院員工等均因竊竭保密協議並禁止攜帶任何通訊產品進入,拒絕竊竊者不得參加秘密會議,另增訂第二項及第三項。"},{"start":19897.321,"end":19922.392,"text":"曾參加立法院秘密會議之立法委員其本人及其關係人於任期中或聘僱關係程序期間前往中國及港澳地區應向立法院報備並於網站公開其報備方法由立法院定之違反前二項規定紀律委員會應立即調查必要時提報用會與予停權並移送司法機關調查其餘未修正。"},{"start":19924.195,"end":19933.364,"text":"第11條立法委員及其公費助理其他受其監督指揮監督之助理不得兼任公務機關、公營事業機構及其轉投資事業機構之職務"},{"start":19940.407,"end":19961.786,"text":"例示一條之一,立法委員兼任政府捐助成立之裁判法人公立或私立學校或其他非以盈利為目的之事業機關或團體之職位者應於宣誓就職後三個月內申報之並應隨時更新申報,前項所定事項之受理申報機關為立法院紀律委員會"},{"start":19964.11,"end":19982.53,"text":"第十三條第一項未修正增定第二項立法委員於各會期報到期間未完成報到者應停發其稅費公費至其完成報到後使得發放報到後至稅費公費。第十六條除將墨具中財產上等文字刪除外其餘未修正"},{"start":19984.724,"end":20007.909,"text":"第十九條刪除。第20條立法委員行使職權所牽涉或辦理之事務應其作為直接或間接,使本人或其關係人或取利益者應行迴避。第26條第一項未修正。第二項修正為紀律委員會委員對關係其個人本身配偶與"},{"start":20008.969,"end":20030.741,"text":"其有共同生活之家屬關係之人或其二等親內親屬之懲戒案應自行迴避,如未自行迴避其所行使之表決全部與計算並不計入出席人數。民進黨黨團提案第30條除第一項增訂後段"},{"start":20032.256,"end":20056.147,"text":"其有涉及刑事責任者提報院會移送該管檢查機關依法辦理其餘未修正委員賴瑞隆等提案第31條第一項未修正增訂第二項本法中華民國某年某院某日修正之條文自中華民國某年某院某日起施行。三（立法院議事規則部分條文修正草案委員賴瑞隆等提案第九條"},{"start":20057.898,"end":20085.114,"text":"除第一項倒數第三具修正為於下午一時至二時處理之其餘未修正第二十二條第一項未修正原第二項及第三項條文刪除第二項由原第四項條文遞移並將首具修正為前項會議開會時間已屆上午九時其餘未修正民進黨黨團提案第47條除第一項首具修正為本院與院會委員會及黨團協商舉行祕密會議時"},{"start":20088.834,"end":20114.973,"text":"第二項維修正、增訂第三項及第四項立法委員列席人員及會場員工禁止攜帶任何可供操錄、影印、擴音、錄音、攝影、錄影、傳輸及通訊之器材並應簽具保密切結書、拒絕交付相關器材或拒絕簽具保密切結書者不得入場。前項人員因身心障礙而有需求"},{"start":20115.893,"end":20135.722,"text":"經主席同意得使用相關器材為輔具。第五項由原第三項條文遞以其餘未修正。第48條第一項及第二項未修正增訂第三項。立法委員列席人員及會場員公布得以任何方式記錄或洩漏機密內容。委員賴瑞隆等提案第50條增訂第一項。"},{"start":20139.429,"end":20156.222,"text":"參加秘密會議之立法委員、列席人員及本院員工等均應竊竭保密協議並禁止攜帶任何通訊產品進入,拒絕竊竊者不得參加秘密會議。第二項及第三項由原第一項及第二項條文遞以其餘位修正。"},{"start":20157.096,"end":20180.633,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第五十二條除首具修正為立法委員違反本規則第48條第三項或第五十條第一項之規定者令默據後增訂其涉及刑事責任者並移送該管檢察機關依法辦理其餘未修正四（立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":20181.818,"end":20201.729,"text":"委員呂玉玲等提案第十五條之一除第一項第三句中德與修正為應與令增訂第二項及第三項總統應與每年二月一日以前將該年國家大政方針應送全體立法委員並於二月底向立法院提出國情報告"},{"start":20202.489,"end":20226.683,"text":"新任總統應於就職兩週內向立法院提出國家大政方針並於一個月內向立法院提出國情報告其餘未修正。委員鄭天才等提案第15條之二除將第一項條文中就國家安全大政方針等文字刪除外其餘未修正。委員鄭天才等提案第15條之四"},{"start":20227.748,"end":20254.44,"text":"立法委員於總統國情報告完畢後得提出問題並由總統依序及時答覆。民進黨黨團提案第二十一條第一項至第三項未修正。增訂第四項。議事處依第一項登記名單擬定質詢順序及時間。立法委員依表定時間進行質詢。表定時間已屆經暢明三次不在場者。視同放棄質詢。"},{"start":20257.372,"end":20272.631,"text":"委員鄭天才等提案第25條除第三項默具修正為主席或諮詢委員得與制止其餘未修正委員羅志強等提案第25條除第一項增訂默具且不得反諮詢"},{"start":20274.56,"end":20302.02,"text":"令第三項修正為被質詢人違反第一項與第二項規定者主席得與制止經制止無效者得令其離開會場其餘未修正。委員蕾玉玲等提案第28條之三行政院院長、各部會首長及相關出席立法院會議之政府人員與達詢實作虛偽陳述或提供不實資料者處一年以上五年以下有歧途刑。"},{"start":20302.921,"end":20318.539,"text":"第28條之四行政院院長各部會首長及相關出席立法院會議之政府人員於接獲立法院邀請出席會議時未經會議主席準價而缺席者為藐視國會處一年以下有期徒刑。"},{"start":20319.62,"end":20341.476,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第29條,築第一項首句中憲法第104條後的或字修正為頓號令第七條第二項後增訂規定二字倒數第二句條文中提出院會修正為提報院會令增訂第二項及第三項"},{"start":20342.836,"end":20369.959,"text":"除前項規定外,立法院依法律規定行使人事同意權時不經討論交付相關委員會。審查後提報院會以無記名投票表決經超過出席立法委員二分之一之同意為通過。前二項之審查應舉行公聽會並得邀集相關學者專家、公民團體及社會公正人士出席表達意見。其餘未修正委員鄭天才等提案第29條"},{"start":20371.644,"end":20387.067,"text":"除條文中第七條、第二項後增訂法院組織法第六十六條、第二項、第四項或其他法律規定令倒數第二具條文中無濟民投票修正為濟民投票其餘未修正"},{"start":20388.123,"end":20413.228,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第三十條被提名人資格之相關證明資料應由提名機關與提名室並送立法院全院委員會或相關委員會就被提名人資格及是否事任之相關事項進行審查與詢問並由立法院知請總統或函請行政院院長通知被提名人列席說明與答詢。"},{"start":20416.089,"end":20443.441,"text":"第31條同意權行使之結果由立法院資副總統或含副行政院長如被提名人未獲同意總統或行政院長應令提他人資請立法院同意。民進黨黨團提案第八章章明調查及文件調閱委員翁曉琳等提案第八章章明調查權之行使民進黨黨團提案第一節解明院會之調查權"},{"start":20444.966,"end":20469.182,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第45條立法院進院會決議得涉調查委員會就特定議案行使調查權。前項調查權之行使僅於與憲法賦予。立法院支持權有重大關聯之範圍內,使得為之。調查委員會行使調查權除得要求有關機關構就議案涉及事項提供參考資料、參考文件外。"},{"start":20470.117,"end":20487.603,"text":"必要時並得調閱議案涉及事項之文件原本或要求機關構提供其他資料或物件或以舉行調查公聽會之方式邀請機關構出席表達意見或學者專家出具專業意見。委員翁小林等提案第45條"},{"start":20488.923,"end":20506.573,"text":"立法院經院會決議得涉調查委員會或經委員會決議得涉調查專案小組,要求與特定議案有關之機關法人、人民團體及個人聽證並提供文件、資料及檔案。調查委員會由立法院各黨團依其在院會之期次比例推派委員組成。"},{"start":20508.534,"end":20526.253,"text":"調查專案小組由各委員會委員組成。調查委員會及調查專案小組由委員互選一人為召集人負責中理相關事務。調查委員會或調查專案小組於必要時得經院會之決議,向有關機關調閱前項議案涉及事項之文件原本。"},{"start":20527.783,"end":20548.76,"text":"機關法人、人民團體或個人依第四項、第五項所提供之資料文件不得遮蔽或掩飾。文件資料及檔案經核定為國家機密者適用國家機密保護法有關規定。民進黨黨團提案第45條之一,立法院行使調查權不得逾越調查目的事項與範圍。"},{"start":20551.489,"end":20579.157,"text":"並應尊重其他國家機關受憲法保障、獨立行使之職權及行政首長就特定機密決定不予公開之行政特權、裁判確定前之訴訟案件就其偵查或審判所為之處置及其卷證、立法院不得行使調查權、尚未確定之訴院事件或其他依法應獨立行使職權之機關本與職權處理中之案件一同。"},{"start":20580.217,"end":20600.34,"text":"調查委員會成立後其他依法應獨立行使職權之機關亦本於職權進行處理相關案件時,調查委員會得停止調查。民進黨黨團提案第46條,調查委員會設立及調查權之行使應於立法院"},{"start":20601.876,"end":20619.91,"text":"會期中為之、前向調查委員會之名稱、調查目的事項範圍期間、方法及成員人數、本結會規定者由院會議決之、各屆院會調查權之行使、致詞於該屆立法委員任期屆滿時終止。委員翁曉琳等提案第46條"},{"start":20622.106,"end":20642.596,"text":"調查委員會或調查專案小組之設立,均依於立法院會期中為之,但調閱文件資料及檔案之時間不在此限。調查委員會及調查專案小組於議案調查完畢並提出調查報告、調閱報告及處理意見後即行解散,或於該屆立法委員任期屆滿,自動解散。"},{"start":20645.202,"end":20661.911,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第46條之一,調查委員會之成員由各黨團依其在院會所占席次比例推派之,其成員亦得由原推派黨團變更之。調查委員會之召集委員二人由其委員會之成員互選之。"},{"start":20663.243,"end":20681.007,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第47條,受要求調閱文件或提供其他資料或物件之機關購,除依法律或其他正當理由的拒絕外,應於五日內提供之,但相關文件、資料或物件業經司法機關或監察機關纖維調取時,機關購應續名理由並提供副本。"},{"start":20685.368,"end":20706.441,"text":"若有正當理由,無法提供副本應說明理由。前項提出之期間,調查委員會得決議展言或限縮之,但決議限縮之期間不得少於三日。機關構有正當理由,得請求調查委員會發完調閱之文件或提供之資料或物件。"},{"start":20708.257,"end":20723.686,"text":"委員翁角林等提案第47條除第一項首具受要求調閱文件之機關後增訂法人、人民團體或個人令第三具但書中相關資料修正為相關文件資料檔案"},{"start":20724.966,"end":20746.039,"text":"令第二項修正為前項調閱文件資料及檔案機關法人及人民團體應指派專人宋達立法院指定場所以供查閱,其餘未修正。民進黨黨團提案第48條機關夠於調查委員會行使調查權時無正當理由不得拒絕、拖延、隱匿、不提供文件"},{"start":20747.08,"end":20755.877,"text":"資料或物件或拒絕出席調查公定會表達意見違反前項規定者提報院會決議處新台幣一萬元以上、三十萬以下罰還"},{"start":20757.999,"end":20785.447,"text":"並得按次連續處罰。」委員翁小林等提案第48條第一項未修正徵定第二項及第三項公務人員、法人、人民團體或個人有前項情形者得經立法院院會決議處新台幣二萬元以上、二十萬元以下罰還並得按次處罰至改正為止。前項罰還處分受處分者如有不符得於處分書送達之次日起二個月內向立法院所在地之行政法院提起行政訴訟。"},{"start":20786.627,"end":20804.319,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第49條,調查委員會所需之工作人員由秘書長指派之,調查委員會於必要時得請求院長指派專業人員協助之。委員翁小林等提案第49條,除將條文中調閱均修正為調查外其餘未修正。"},{"start":20806.533,"end":20830.908,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第五十條,調查委員會所調取之文件資料或物件現由調查委員會之委員或院長指派之專業人員親自查閱之。前項查閱人員對依法應保密之文件、資料或物件不得抄錄、攝影、影印、誦讀、錄音或為其他複製行為,亦不得吸離或傳書至查閱。"},{"start":20832.269,"end":20846.045,"text":"場所外、第一項查閱人員對依法應保密之文件、資料或物件內容或其存在附有保密之異物、其離職後與解密前之期間內一同。」委員翁小林等提案第五十條。"},{"start":20846.926,"end":20871.934,"text":"依本法所調取之文件、資料及檔案,現由各該調查委員會、調查專案小組或院長指派之專業人員親自查閱之。前項查閱人員對機密文件、資料及檔案不得抄錄、攝影、影印、誦讀、錄音或為其他複製行為亦不得稀釐查閱場所。委員翁小林等提案第50條之一"},{"start":20874.344,"end":20895.874,"text":"調查委員會或調查專案小組依第45條第四項要求與特定議案有關之機關法人人民團體及個人聽證時應於開會日15日前依行政程序法第55條所定應載之事項以書面送達應邀聽證人員應邀聽證人員非有正當理由不得拒絕出席"},{"start":20897.935,"end":20916.967,"text":"聽證應公開舉行,但涉及國防、外交或其他依法令應保密事項者,以秘密會議方式進行。第五十條之二,經書面通知之機關、法人、人民團體及個人應於聽證期日前以書面提交陳述意見。聽證後,聽證人員仍有補充意見之。"},{"start":20919.774,"end":20936.813,"text":"補充意見必要者應於聽證會後三日內以書面提出。且二向之書面意見及資料任由保密必要者聽證人員應於提出時序明須保密之理由並製作可公開之文件摘要送交立法院。"},{"start":20938.666,"end":20965.557,"text":"第五十條之三聽證應做成聽證記錄聽證記錄當場製作完成者由陳述人發問人簽名或蓋章為當場製作完成者由主持人指定日期場所供陳述人或發問人閱覽並由其簽名或蓋章前二項情形陳述人或發問人拒絕簽名蓋章或位於指定日期場所閱覽者應記名其事由陳述人或發問人對聽證記錄之記載有異議者"},{"start":20968.998,"end":20984.894,"text":"則及時提出主持人任依依有理由者應予更正或補充,無理由者應盡明其意義。第五十條之四,並邀到立法院聽證人員應據實答覆,不得拒絕陳述,陳述不完全或為虛偽陳述。"},{"start":20986.716,"end":21008.533,"text":"但就特定問題之答復如有刑事訴訟法所定得拒絕贈言之事由並當場示明者不在此限。第五十條之五政府機關或公務人員違反第五十條之一或第五十條之四規定者得經立法院院會決議將其移送監察院依法提出糾正糾舉或彈劾。"},{"start":21010.214,"end":21032.631,"text":"第五十條之六公務人員、法人、人民團體或個人違反第五十條之一或第五十條之四規定者得經立法院院會決議處新台幣二萬元以上、二十萬元以下之罰還。前項罰還處分受處分者如有不符得於處分送達之四日起二個月內向立法院所在地之行政法院提起行政訴訟。"},{"start":21033.812,"end":21037.898,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第51條,調查委員會調查終結後應將調查內容經過及決議等相關事項做成調查報告提報院會。調查委員會得提出其中報告。"},{"start":21050.049,"end":21054.633,"text":"條文修正草案．一．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．一．立法院組織法部分條文修正草"},{"start":21066.124,"end":21070.469,"text":"委員翁美玲等提案第51條,調查委員會或調查專案小組應與文件調閱處理及聽證程序終結後30日內分項用會或委員會提出調閱、調查報告書及處理意見作為處理該特定議案之依據。"},{"start":21082.603,"end":21103.863,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第52條,調查委員會任由涉及國家安全、外交、國防機密或其他依法令應秘密事項者以秘密會議行之。調查報告未公佈前,其調查委員會之成員、專業人員、工作人員、保管人員、幕僚人員或其他相關人員,經負有保密之義務。"},{"start":21104.904,"end":21124.436,"text":"除公開會議中已公開者外,不得對文件、資料或物件內容或調查情形予以揭露、涉及國家安全、外交或國防機密或其他依法令應祕密事項者於調查報告或調查其中報告提出後,仍應依相關法令規定保密。"},{"start":21125.556,"end":21140.401,"text":"並依秘密會議之決議處理之,前向保密義務於調查委員會成員、專業人員、工作人員、保管人員、幕僚人員或其他相關人員離職後解密前至期間內一同。」委員翁曉琳等提案第52條。"},{"start":21142.336,"end":21166.355,"text":"調查、調閱報告書及處理意見未提出前其調查人員、工作人員、專業人員、保管人員負有保密之義務不得對調查、調閱內容或處理情形與揭露但涉及外交、國防或其他依法令應秘密事項者於調查、調閱報告及處理意見提出後仍應依相關法令規定保密並依秘密會議處理之"},{"start":21171.297,"end":21197.332,"text":"民進黨黨團提案第53條。調查委員會未提出調查報告前,院會對調查所設之議案不得為最後之決議,但已於院會議決之實現時不再實現。委員翁曉琳等提案第53條。除第一項手續修正為調查委員會或調查專案小組未提出調查調閱報告書及處理意見前,第二項手續修正為前項調查專案小組之調查報告"},{"start":21201.095,"end":21212.167,"text":"調閱報告書及處理意見,其餘未修正。民進黨黨團提案第53條之一,調查報告或其中報告之內容不受司法審查、監察"},{"start":21215.949,"end":21231.4,"text":"檢查機關、法院、書院或其他行政就緝之先行程序審議機關對案件之偵查、審判或審議不受調查報告或其中報告之拘束。第五十三條之二,調查委員會之會議"},{"start":21233.325,"end":21260.858,"text":"本法未規定者準用立法院組織法、立法院各委員會組織法、立法委員行為法及立法院議事規則相關之規定。第五十三條之三,調查委員會之成員、專業人員、工作人員、保管人員、幕僚人員或其他相關人員其利益迴避事項準用立法委員行為法及公職人員利益衝突迴避法之規定。第二節解明委員會之文件調閱權"},{"start":21263.482,"end":21283.695,"text":"第五十三條之四各委員會為審查院會交付之議案經委員會決議得涉調閱專案小組,要求有關機關構就特定議案涉及事項提供參考資料。調閱專案小組於必要時得向有關機關構調閱前項議案涉及事項之文件原本。第五十三條之五"},{"start":21284.555,"end":21302.924,"text":"條約專案小組織設立及條約文件權之行使應於立法院會期中為之。前項條約專案小組織名稱、條約目的、事項範圍、期間、方法及成員人數本結尾規定者由委員會議決之。各委員會文件條約權之行使致詞於該會期屆滿時終止。第53條之六"},{"start":21308.445,"end":21316.237,"text":"條約專案小組織成員由該委員會委員擔任之。條約專案小組織召集委員二人由該委員會召集委員擔任之。"},{"start":21318.248,"end":21345.882,"text":"條約專案小組所需之工作人員由立法院各委員會或主辦委員會指派之。條約專案小組於必要時得請求院長指派專業人員協助之。第五十三條之七機關構於條約專案小組行使文件條約權時無正當理由不得拒絕拖延或隱匿不提供文件違反前項規定者提報院會決議處心台幣一萬元以上三十萬元以下罰還"},{"start":21347.203,"end":21369.013,"text":"並得按次連續處罰。第五十三條之八,調閱專案小組行使文件調閱權時,準用第四十五條、第二項第四十五條之一、第四十七條及第五十條至第五十三條之三之規定。第七十條,第一項至第三項未修正。第四項修正為"},{"start":21370.294,"end":21391.807,"text":"議案進行協商使由秘書長派員支援全程錄影錄音記錄協商過程之全程記錄與協商結論均應刊登公報。增訂第五項前項協商之錄影應與國會頻道、立法院網際網路多媒體隨選視訊即時播出。第六項由原第五項條文遞移其餘未修正。"},{"start":21393.154,"end":21408.148,"text":"第七十四條之一本法第八條所定進夫二讀之一案應交付黨團協商並由提案委員或所屬黨團負責召集並適用本法第七十條至第七十四條之規定。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":21409.555,"end":21429.032,"text":"繼續宣讀修正動議部分．討論事項第一案修正動議一．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．對照民進黨黨團提案第十五條將第十五條的第十一款中南部服務中心修正為地區服務中心其餘未修正提案人委員、中家兵等宣讀完畢"},{"start":21432.21,"end":21461.69,"text":"好 那麼提案條文修正動議已宣讀完畢那現在我們進行 那麼討論事項第一案繼續審查民進黨團擬具立法院組織法部分條文修正草案等四案那因為現在呢我們專訓代表市長堂議將我們先進行大體討論那請大家表示意見 那請主席我建議就是我們是不是把大體跟主條就一併來處理好了好來 然後這樣討論更有效率"},{"start":21462.963,"end":21462.983,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":21473.425,"end":21473.565,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":21493.697,"end":21493.717,"text":"案 。"},{"start":21508.843,"end":21523.807,"text":"第三條有委員賴瑞隆等16人提案。提案內容請看。主要以記名分別互選產生院長、副院長。第三條賴瑞隆的部分"},{"start":21530.455,"end":21532.376,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院主席"},{"start":21555.336,"end":21555.797,"text":"全案送院會。"},{"start":21571.809,"end":21585.902,"text":"第五條是委員賴瑞隆等16人提案。提案的主要修正內容是在第二項,是關於秘密會議的部分。請問委員對於第五條有什麼看法?"},{"start":21588.21,"end":21610.65,"text":"跟主席跟大家說明因為這個條文民進黨團另外我們在議事規則裡面有做處置所以我是覺得這個部分就我們黨團的意見是就用我們的提案的議事規則的條文來處理所以第五條我看瑞隆委員也不在場其實是就以黨團的議事規則的條文來處理這一條其實是可以不用處理"},{"start":21611.547,"end":21639.882,"text":"好 謝謝吳委員吳委員也是我們本案的聯署委員我是這樣子有關於保密的規定賴委員本身分別在立法院組織法第五條增列第四項前段立法委員行為法提出了第十條增列第一項後段以及在立法院議事規則第五十條增訂第一項那麼因為民進黨黨團版本在議事規則有第四十條增訂第三項是我們把這個東西條文保留到議事規則的時候一起來討論好不好"},{"start":21640.862,"end":21669.669,"text":"可以齁?好,那我們先暫保留。好,我們保留到後面併案進行討論。好,那第14條呢,就是民進黨黨團的提案。那,民進黨黨團提案,請問各位委員對本案有什麼意見?來,審判會委員請。欸,這條現在我們事實上本院已經設置治安,已經有設置治安長了齁,所以我是覺得就把它法制化,所以我建議是按照提案,這個民進黨團提案通過。"},{"start":21672.168,"end":21698.4,"text":"請問在場委員對於這個省委員的意見我們本案依民進黨黨團提案來審查通過來請您是主席我想長安的詢答我也表示很清楚因為這個治安長那由我們的副首長來兼任到底副首長夠不夠專業這部分我們認為還有討論的空間所以這一條是不是我們也敬請就是保留我們到協商大家再來討論"},{"start":21699.861,"end":21728.153,"text":"那請問大家對於保留現行的在負責資安請周秘書長回答一下來請周秘書長現在因為目前已經有設資安長了那如果要把這個明定化那就由委員來做決定那現在資安長是誰現在是副秘書長兼任根本也是一樣行政院也是行政院副院長"},{"start":21730.098,"end":21738.401,"text":"指派有專業的人士來兼任我們的治安長所以現在雖然我們規定是說很多規定說副首長來擔任這個治安長我的意思是說也可以指派有"},{"start":21758.469,"end":21774.703,"text":"這個專業的人士來兼任,所以我們現在指定說就只有那個司法指定就是副秘書長來兼任,副秘書長都不懂啊,這個是很危險喔。所以我們從資訊處裡面去挑啊,或者你們不是主張說要成立資訊安全處嗎,裡面去挑啊,去選啊。"},{"start":21782.389,"end":21782.769,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":21803.183,"end":21805.227,"text":"二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":21814.74,"end":21836.327,"text":"我們這個修法其實是比照立法院2018年已經修的自通安全管理法11條的規範就公務機關要設自通安全長而且就是由機關首長來指派副首長或是當人員確實有或是當人員但是回到那個資訊安全管理法為什麼當初要cue出一個副首長"},{"start":21837.807,"end":21865.356,"text":"就是因為要彰顯著那因應的數位時代資訊安全的管制是更為重要的所以希望我們的各個公務機關要把資通安全拉到一個高位的副首長來督導來主責所以這彰顯了一個機關對於資通安全的一個安全管控因為他upgrade他的這個首長擔任的這個層級更高第二個我也認為這就是一個很好的時機"},{"start":21866.536,"end":21868.178,"text":"法務各位委員幾乎各院都是由"},{"start":21882.598,"end":21883.279,"text":"條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":21898.118,"end":21916.2,"text":"重視。第二個當然有這個法制化就是會要求各個部門在派任這樣一個人員他就是要強調他的資通安全的專業現在司民委員的意思就有點反制變成說因為很怕他沒有專業所以不能由這個人來做"},{"start":21916.761,"end":21919.021,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":21945.568,"end":21951.385,"text":"這個入侵那個數字是非常匪夷所思的所以代表我們還好過去都有成功組黨組卻好"},{"start":21953.055,"end":21981.454,"text":"所以這個我一直覺得要upgrade到這個程度來在下位委員發言之前我主席做一個程序上的整理因為目前第14條跟第15條都有支通安全處跟支通安全長的這樣的一個規定那我是不是建議說這個兩條並同討論因為這個剛剛秘書長的意見是說支通安全要有專業人士來擔任為儀那過去其他行政機關都是由副總長兼任支通安全長"},{"start":21982.495,"end":22000.97,"text":"那這兩者怎麼樣兼採我是不是請大家也看到第15條第一項第7款民進黨黨團版本增列一個自通安全處那如果這兩條併同來考量是否比較隕蕩那請教各位委員表示意見那剛剛有那個羅志強委員舉手是不是我先做這樣的處理14條15條併同討論好來請羅委員"},{"start":22006.087,"end":22029.982,"text":"我覺得今天我們的周秘書長也有表示一些相關的意見那我覺得既然在場雙方的委員都有一些不同的意見那我覺得就比照我們之前的做法有意見就保留送協商那協商的時候也可以讓秘書長在這邊現場來去看看怎麼樣去做對立法院來說比較好的一個處理跟安排以上那個曾委員有表示就要表示意見"},{"start":22033.407,"end":22036.429,"text":"現在有兩個爭議,應該是林委員今天早上有提到的,到底用自動安全長的這樣一個人有沒有專業性。我先講一下目前的實際狀況,因為現在實際狀況最主要是人力不足。"},{"start":22051.698,"end":22052.939,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草"},{"start":22074.87,"end":22075.331,"text":"條文修正草案。"},{"start":22095.896,"end":22109.533,"text":"第十五條、第六、第七、第六款、第七款到底要不要把它分成兩個這個我自己個人並沒有那麼強烈的一個意見因為重點就是今天早上有跟這個處長講過的就是他最主要是需要獨立"},{"start":22110.094,"end":22110.454,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":22125.911,"end":22131.572,"text":"好,謝謝省委員的表達。我這邊齊說一個提醒因為雖然我們現在討論到14條並同15條那剛剛省委員提到15條裡面後面還有個19條之二跟第24條都是跟這個制動案源處的設置有關,包括它的編制人力是不是我請大家同意說我們就把這個議題啊增訂第19條之二跟24條也並同討論,大家同不同意?"},{"start":22148.936,"end":22174.808,"text":"因為這是涉及到制動安全處的設置的定位那如果他同意的話呢主席這邊有一個關於第15條的修正動議那因為他雖然不是直接跟制動安全處有關但是跟15條有關請大家看一下討論事項第一案的修正動議因為修正動議要先處理那這個剛好本席跟其他委員有提出就是關於修正動議的條文是針對民進黨團的提案條文的15條但是呢他是去處理第11款"},{"start":22175.908,"end":22203.589,"text":"中南部服務中心,把它修正為地區服務中心。原因在於說,未來的立法院,未來有一個簽件的計畫,是不是就一定在臺北市或在北部,因為如果確定在北部,才會變成有中南部服務中心的需求。如果不是在北部,可能在中部,可能在南部,這個服務中心可能就會變成叫北部服務中心,或者是中北部服務中心,都有可能。"},{"start":22204.289,"end":22205.89,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草"},{"start":22221.216,"end":22248.29,"text":"主席、各位委員這個是要改名稱的第七評審中心因為今天這裡有涉及到22條之一跟27條之一他的執掌跟編制目前因為你是部分條文修正案你沒有進來所以你直接要改這個條文可能是有點在從立法技術上不太妥適所以要跟委員報告一下因為有涉及到後面的兩個條文"},{"start":22249.431,"end":22271.345,"text":"我瞭解了民進黨果然是議事專家他說我們雖然第15條有草案但是針對第15條的修正動議會牽涉到其他本次修正草案當中沒有觸及到的條文因為其他的條文的名稱都是叫做地區服務中心有一個22條之一因為本次22條之一並不在我們這次27條之一"},{"start":22276.414,"end":22283.042,"text":"二十二條之一跟二十七條之一都會觸及到中南部服務中心的名稱。"},{"start":22286.96,"end":22287.48,"text":"民進黨黨團有關於自動安全處﹚"},{"start":22309.255,"end":22317.879,"text":"你不要一直搞下去嘛,我提早就要發言我就是問大家是不是一起變同討論?剛才你講,他講我換我講大家幫忙談沒有關係剛才說這幾條並願討論,第14條第15條,19條還有哪一條?24條"},{"start":22329.571,"end":22351.966,"text":"那四條。那現在你提案,你提案,你提修正案,那個,那個就,那個賣啦齁,那個不行啦齁。我是提一個看法,第15條齁,有一個資訊處齁,那有一個資訊安全處齁,雖然是這個本黨,黨版,黨版提案的齁。"},{"start":22353.743,"end":22381.936,"text":"增加一個資通安全處我只是覺得這兩個併在一起就可以比較法務部法務部有時候也是這樣而已他就沒有資金處他就資通安全處這兩個併在一起至於人員要增加我都沒有意見我講我們自己內部我看一下內部應該照理說整理六款第七款六款不要了就改為資通安全處這樣可能比較妥當"},{"start":22382.936,"end":22399.496,"text":"至於治安長的成績,剛剛沈柏洋委員也講過,他是一個通案的法定成績比較高的,當然底下也有專業人員,是不是做個修正好不好?"},{"start":22401.275,"end":22418.149,"text":"來那個科委員科總到提議就是因為我們的第七款跟第六款一個叫資訊處就是資通安全處那如果把資訊處跟資通安全處都併為同樣的一個資通安全處的話那麼在組織編制上就並沒有擴增"},{"start":22419.85,"end":22433.043,"text":"但是呢一樣會促集到19條之一齁因為19條之一是寫資訊處他的名稱叫資訊處不是自動安全處那我們在這裡改了把資訊處改成自動安全處齁後面會牽動到19條之一那麼24條的部分齁的那個編制啊"},{"start":22438.388,"end":22453.497,"text":"因為二十條編制當中其實就是比較沒有動到資訊處跟自動安全處的差別因為他是放在關等裡面的緣額去調整的沒有涉及到單位名稱那這個部分就請委員表示意見是自動安全處跟資訊處併在一起嗎來翁委員"},{"start":22456.305,"end":22459.268,"text":"但是我針對剛剛講的在15條裡面是不是要多增設資通安全處那個人認為是不需要這樣跌床架屋其實就我們現在資訊處的未來它的就是現在資訊處的業務範圍可以擴大涵蓋到"},{"start":22473.725,"end":22497.416,"text":"在19條之二裡面所要處理的自動安全處的長領事項其實就夠了那麼這樣的話其實就不需要再往下面修24條啊等等這些條文也就是說在現行的這個我們立法院組織的這個各處事裡面的資訊處就已經可以cover現在的這些事項沒有不需要再修正"},{"start":22498.576,"end":22499.017,"text":"條文修正草"},{"start":22521.927,"end":22534.596,"text":"單位並沒有增加,但是原額有增加,那資訊處改為自動安全處之後,它的職長加強,那這樣是一個修正的動議,那這修正還沒正式提案之前只是一個構想,那請教大家意見。我覺得還是聽秘書長的意見為重。"},{"start":22541.4,"end":22557.538,"text":"我覺得資訊處跟資通安全處我覺得真的是疊床架屋啦那而且資訊處跟資通安全處嚴格來講資訊處才是大概念資通安全是小概念就是說資訊處他所主管的東西包含一般的資訊業務也包含資通安全"},{"start":22558.078,"end":22581.386,"text":"所以當你把這個名稱變成自動安全其實你反而讓這個資訊處它的一個職能定位會出現問題所以我倒是覺得說不需要疊床架屋啦就個人意見覺得說你資訊處就好了那至於資訊處業務要怎麼去重新的來去界定這個我覺得可以尊重我們的那個周秘書長的一個看法以上好 那個請周秘書長表示意見"},{"start":22581.92,"end":22583.101,"text":"主席賴瑞隆等"},{"start":22603.822,"end":22615.898,"text":"內部在討論的時候資訊處本身對於資通安全他在內部的一個職長的作業上他們是認為是可以加進去在比如出入規程裡面再加他們的這個職長的業務"},{"start":22619.523,"end":22619.984,"text":"條文修正草"},{"start":22638.646,"end":22664.406,"text":"好,來,那請那個省委員、省委員之後主席這邊做個資訊的整理。好,那沒有問題,我就跟剛剛的意見一樣,就是說這兩個要放一起來是分開沒什麼意見,但是還是要再強調一下就是,IT跟資安是完全不同的事情,你看我看喔,所以呢,只是是因為資訊處這個名稱範圍聽起來可以很廣泛,但是其實IT跟Cyber Security還是分開啦,所以這就是為什麼要特別去討論說他要做這個自動安全相關的事項,以上。"},{"start":22666.171,"end":22690.844,"text":"那主席在那邊做個秩序的整理。那就維持民進黨的提案版本,增加一個自動安全處。在大家進一步討論之前,我大概再增加一個。請大家看一下,現在有兩個意見,有一邊的意見是主張說就把自動安全的部分併到原來的資訊處底下,那這就是維持現狀。"},{"start":22691.823,"end":22696.365,"text":"那另外一個意見是說自動安全的內容跟資訊處現有的內容不完全一樣那這裡面勢必要把19條之二放進去再幫他討論但是19條之二的方式是把自動安全處跟資訊處分開來兩個獨立各不同屬的一個單位但是如果要採取一個單位涵蓋兩項業務那誠如剛剛秘書長所回答的那麼有可能19條之二的內容就必須放到我們處務規程當中去涵蓋"},{"start":22720.453,"end":22736.682,"text":"也就是說未來資訊處的處務規程或叫自動安全處的處務規程裡面可能要把原來的資訊處的業務跟自動安全業務分別羅列表達在未來不管叫什麼名字的那個處裡面的共同單位那這樣的話十九條之二的規定叫未來會被處務規程所吸納"},{"start":22738.803,"end":22752.828,"text":"但是呢一樣的24條編制原額的擴充可能也要給予一些著徵不然的話資訊出入管道、資通安全的內容那它的原額是要增加這一點會表達在24條所以請大家可以就這個部分來加以討論。現在請吳思耀委員"},{"start":22756.004,"end":22771.987,"text":"我剛剛聆聽了一輪大家發表的意見包括秘書長的說明就我自己從一開始在草擬這個提案然後跟很多的自通安全專家的交換意見以及參著我們2018完成的資訊安全管理法的"},{"start":22772.467,"end":22791.933,"text":"法規面。」為什麼民主進步黨的版本還是端出來的版本就是資訊處之外另設一個資通安全處是因為在本質上做資訊的內容像現在我們的資訊處確實我們辦公室互動最多的是常常來換換軟體幫我們看看電腦、看看網路有沒有什麼問題"},{"start":22796.774,"end":22818.749,"text":"案件和資通安全本身的內容涵蓋,我認為在面相上就是大不同。這就是為什麼我們在資通安全管理法裡頭很清楚的資通安全為什麼要做。它除了是要去建構國家的資通安全環境之外,它更涉及了國家安全的部分。"},{"start":22820.044,"end":22844.743,"text":"所以這個在專業面向在整個業務的服務的面向我覺得是完全不同的概念所以我並不覺得這是跌床駕屋因為對我而言我是提案人在場景的過程我認為這是完全本質上不同的業務的歸類所以我是認為不管在資通系統、資通服務、資通安全、資通安全事件"},{"start":22845.403,"end":22872.93,"text":"的管理管制處理他都需要一個單一的處事來處理才不會讓我們的公務同仁就專業的分工上有困擾就工作的priority前後順序的排擠上也會產生干擾我是再一次說明我希望民主進步黨的版本獲得大家的肯認謝謝謝謝目前第四條到第24條有四個條文目前已經大家有充分表示意見請問還沒有繼續表達來請柯總召"},{"start":22875.768,"end":22895.793,"text":"我本來是為了為什麼要講兩個合在一起當然民進黨處有一些看法但是法務部也有執行官員處但是在民進黨現在的提案分開來可能變動性比較少而且比較能夠做得下去也就是說主計和審計應該分開的"},{"start":22900.274,"end":22927.205,"text":"之間是管IT、治安的管安全、不同的系統。那就照這樣的話,我們版本就其他的,變動性會很小,就省得下去,還是維持,我們提案版本。柯總召是建議維持民進黨黨的提案版本,那有省委員跟林士明委員,那林士明委員先,然後省委員?"},{"start":22929.497,"end":22950.028,"text":"我想我也聆聽各位的大見之後,其實我想大家的意見都有一個共同點,就是認為資通安全很重要。所以你現在把這個資訊處把名稱改成資通安全處,那其實跟資訊處現在目前我們立法院資訊處做的"},{"start":22951.128,"end":22954.649,"text":"案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":22975.394,"end":22983.08,"text":"委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三條及第三十二條條文修正草案案 案件,在立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件,在立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件,在立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件,在立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件,在立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件,在立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":23004.92,"end":23027.014,"text":"現在既有的資訊處,它是對自動安全這一塊,如果它能夠做得好的話,我們是不是還要去增加一個自動安全處?等於說,讓人感覺說,現在就做得好好的,為什麼要再編制增加這麼多的人員去做同樣現在就已經做得還不錯的事情,除非他們做得不好。"},{"start":23029.237,"end":23049.838,"text":"案、其他部會目前也沒有在成立自動安全處,只有調查局有而已。立法院是不是也要這樣比照調查局及成立一個自動安全處,我覺得這個也是大家要去思索的了。所以我的建議,既然大家意見不一致,那我們就保留嘛。"},{"start":23052.223,"end":23080.73,"text":"這幾個條文我們都保留,大家再來做充分的討論,協商時候再討論。你是保留派,每一條都要保留一下。不是,現在你教我已經不敢了。沒有。那再來謝委員,謝謝委員。因為這個秘書長已經講了,我們的業務單位他的意見是顯然跟目標一樣,那顯然跟我們現在要的不一樣。"},{"start":23081.826,"end":23106.218,"text":"那就是保留嘛,保留讓他們,他們可能遇到這個案子,他剛剛已經講了兩次,下午再報告一次,剛剛又一次嘛。阿就保留給他,應該是尊重秘書長,他如果有辦法援助我們治安的目標,把這補費都沒了,就說他也沒比人太厲害啦,我是覺得保留啦。"},{"start":23108.908,"end":23126.605,"text":"立法院另一部小組改,包括整個國家政府組改都時常在做,沒有說這個民進黨講什麼就怎麼樣。我是提醒這個觀念,不是說作案來講什麼就什麼。現在我們在做立法院..."},{"start":23130.005,"end":23149.713,"text":"議員每年被害的數字太多了,坦白講大家都不是很清楚,都沒有很了解這一塊。況且他現在所謂的由副秘書長在掌理的治安的問題,他治安報告我們從來沒有看過,他有什麼時候給我們看過,只是本身坦白講我們要重視這個問題而已,讓立法院的行程"},{"start":23155.956,"end":23182.514,"text":"至於他們要抗拒,但是我們都會給人力的。這並不是說,啊那中央來公安給他安算。那不是這回事的。那這就可以討論的,但不是引他的話來打我們自己。謝謝。那個在審委員發言之前,主席在這邊說明一下,其實我們這個會議是在兩個發言台,也是副總召一句話,立法院就設了啦。所以委員們的意見還是最主要的。來,審委員發言,請。"},{"start":23185.526,"end":23204.014,"text":"我再強調一次就是說他他比較不是跌床駕屋也不是有合在一起的問題因為我舉個例子因為今天之所以要討論這一個是因為立法院被駭客攻擊是真的非常非常的嚴重那這個不是在怪資訊處而是因為資訊處原本的業務是要讓大家能夠順暢的建立我們能夠用的系統比如說"},{"start":23204.394,"end":23220.841,"text":"條文修正草案、電子公文系統等等之類,這是他最主要的業務。今天在自動安全的角度來講,他甚至可能必須要去模擬攻擊。比如說今天對方可能是什麼樣的攻擊,然後我們要怎麼防範。簡單來講,自動安全做得越好,大家用系統會用得越不順。"},{"start":23221.841,"end":23246.393,"text":"所以通常來講在企業裡面這兩個有時候會有點衝突是因為一方面要讓大家用得順但另外一方面又要讓大家變得比較麻煩所以這就是為什麼不管今天我們最後的結論如何這兩個能夠獨立作業其實是一件非常重要的事情所以他跟大家想像的本來是說我的資訊的系統本身的建立跟資訊的這個資通的安全其實完全是兩件事還包含說我們今天在"},{"start":23246.933,"end":23254.88,"text":"事周的這種不管是竊聽啊什麼等等之類的那個反而都在直通安全的範圍裡面但他不是在資訊系統建立這件事情上這樣子"},{"start":23255.834,"end":23284.931,"text":"那剛剛聽了申委員的高見齁,簡單講,我這樣說齁,可能就是自動安全術比較,資訊處讓大家靈活運用,會主張你要穿運動服,比較行動方便。自動安全術重視你的安全要你穿盔甲,你會行動不方便。那兩個單位一定有一個考量不同,一個希望靈活,希望你穿運動服上班,一個希望你安全,希望你穿盔甲上班。那到底要怎麼去折衷,可能兩個單位呢,就必須要分別來表達意見,還是怎麼樣齁,那我們再請教就教各位委員的意見,高見。"},{"start":23286.033,"end":23286.899,"text":"來 那個先羅委員再來吳委員"},{"start":23288.857,"end":23317.697,"text":"其實光這個題目我們討論很久發現都很有道理好不好都很有道理嘛但是每個道理著眼點不一樣嘛這是為什麼今天有黨團協商這個制度嘛那在這邊既然已經都卡關了對不對那很顯然這個立法院也有不一樣的看法嘛所以在這種情況之下我覺得也不是要否決民進黨的一些意見啦但是事實上我覺得那個立法院我們秘書長這邊的意見也很值得參考啊"},{"start":23318.357,"end":23319.058,"text":"條文修正草"},{"start":23336.695,"end":23355.521,"text":"吳委員,我們待會再處理。吳委員發言嗎?我們再處理。好。釐清兩個事情。第一個先回應羅志強委員說的,在議事的程序上,確實委員會是委員會,保留協商是保留協商。但不因為有保留協商那一關,委員會的討論就沒有意義,就不應該進行。"},{"start":23357.241,"end":23384.897,"text":"關我們現在在討論這個條文我覺得這樣的討論是非常有意義的我們好好來釐清對於立法院的運作上資訊處的作業是什麼而國家法制更高層位的要求資通安全的管制面向跟防範面向又是什麼這樣的討論是非常有意義即便最後要保留協商也會受惠於我們在委員會討論的大家把觀念都做一番的釐清這就是委員會中心主義 對不對"},{"start":23386.258,"end":23406.794,"text":"那回到這個條文的本質其實大家剛剛都會提到說法務部有只有法務部有知通安全處其實大家 調查局大家想看看那為什麼是調查局因為調查局他做很多的調查事項他很有可能在安全的防範上的高位要很夠 對不對"},{"start":23408.015,"end":23417.427,"text":"那立法院是院級喔我們是院級喔剛剛大家就直接進入了行政院的部會裡面誰有誰沒有"},{"start":23419.284,"end":23439.989,"text":"那我們現在要站在院的層級立法院中華民國憲法五院在立法院的院的層級請不要用部會的層級來思考因為部會的這個權限分工上有不同的如果說以部會的思維來講的話行政院不就在我們上一屆努力過了這個數位發展部嗎彰顯國家對於數位發展資訊防範、資通安全的"},{"start":23445.811,"end":23470.089,"text":"高度重視,它是一個產業,它是一個安全防護的作業,它當然含貨面向非常廣。那既然立法院它是一個院的層級,我們所設的每一個下面的處事單位它都承載了很重要的輔佐立法院問政的量能。所以站在院的層級,我們有一個資通安全處,我覺得這個彰顯了我們對於資通安全的重視。"},{"start":23473.652,"end":23486.084,"text":"案、第二條及實際需要。實際需要。我剛又去把之前的那個報告拿出來看了一次。確實在2020年的報導,立法院一年就有550萬次被害。"},{"start":23489.81,"end":23491.231,"text":"條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":23507.364,"end":23532.957,"text":"所以在這個部分是保障整個國會的資通安全保障了工作同仁也保障了立法委員所以站在這個層級我還是認為資通安全處在立法院這樣一個重要的國會體系裡頭它的存在是必要的它的新設是必要的它相關的軟硬體跟人力的培育投入是必要的再一次說明"},{"start":23533.951,"end":23550.794,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":23550.874,"end":23571.789,"text":"台灣民眾黨總召黃委員本委員會國民黨總召副委員本委員會民主進步黨總召柯總召本委員會目前只有柯總召在是不是要不要問一下你們的總召對未來要進入政黨協商的看法我們先請謝委員再來請翁委員主席我告訴你沒有反對"},{"start":23578.459,"end":23584.359,"text":"那你講了做了什麼事擴大了多少個那個緣額對不對花了多少錢"},{"start":23585.578,"end":23613.805,"text":"我們就是看到速發部花了一大堆錢嘛沒有效果嘛那他有弄到什麼資安嗎這不是這樣嘛而且重點是今天是我們的資訊處他已經在事前的報告跟研議有針對提案他有提出一個研議稍微有不同那這樣就是讓中交去合作協商基本上我們沒有反對嘛那你說要設也可以不設也可以而且也希望"},{"start":23615.106,"end":23624.176,"text":"總召協商要求業務單位把將來對於資安的部分包括援額包括要做的事先考慮,這樣就好了,我們不是要做嚴謹"},{"start":23627.439,"end":23655.482,"text":"因為有兩位總召不在,我怕今天大家講一講,總召政黨協商的真的又不算...保佑我是尊重,我簡單講就好了。行政院組織法在上一屆全部改,很保守改反進步,你講的出發步,你說出發步也罷,因為組織法完全改很多。所以這個行政院底下的組織法都會改,包括基準法都改,總研法都量化出來。"},{"start":23656.423,"end":23684.617,"text":"但是我們也是厭急的當然我們覺得有需要的時候可以做組織的調整這是沒有問題但是因為秘書處、秘書長那邊有不同意見我們是多多尊重我們都尊重但是做得確定是大家做得確定所以不理我沒有意見平時不能改這個主改常常是做主改好不好我想這樣是翁委員嗎不能要處理"},{"start":23685.253,"end":23707.403,"text":"我最後要說一下就是因為我看到人事總處其實也有提出他們的意見那麼在他們的報告書上面是認為說可以就是將資安業務先納入資訊處的執掌來合併辦理同時正因為這個依照民進黨版的修法還增加到員額那麼我們有這麼多的員額可以增加嗎?可能請人事總處表示一下意見"},{"start":23708.399,"end":23736.156,"text":"其實來以後的研究就會調整我們現在整合法裏面當然還有嚴格的這今天沒有多少人所以這個當然我們總是有他的過去的關於原則他給我們一個建議所以我們聽所以我那時候會想說是兩個併在一起但是如共如明嘛資安和資訊是不一樣這個保留其章我都沒有意見這不是在吵了好不好"},{"start":23736.656,"end":23736.897,"text":"事務委員"},{"start":23752.58,"end":23781.778,"text":"政黨協商,那也請未來在政黨協商的時候黨團的總召能夠因為不在場所以我們就先做這樣的一個共識那就從第十四條、十五條、增訂十九條之二到二十四條我們保留送政黨協商。謝謝我們看二十八條那二十八條呢他是這樣二十八條呢他是一個也可以獨立來看他是要增加聘用具教授人員任用資格的資格者"},{"start":23782.438,"end":23795.364,"text":"那麼這個就是增加了立法院人才增補的管道那這個部分請就叫我們各位委員的意見來有沒有委員要發言來請吳世耀委員請"},{"start":23798.162,"end":23813.454,"text":"這一條第28條我們具體的針對25條所規範26條所規範的研究員、副研究員、助理研究員可以增加他增聘專業人力的這個法制化的授權"},{"start":23814.435,"end":23837.68,"text":"案,二十五條講的是我們的法制局跟預算中心分別列兩條。那我自己從二十幾歲,真的是二十多年前,我當國會助理開始,那我們一直認為立法院的法制局也好,預算中心也好,那在相關的法案還有每年年度總預算,然後各項預算的行使審議的過程都會準備"},{"start":23840.649,"end":23866.531,"text":"資料給立委或助理群、幕僚群們來做參照。但這麼多年來我自己身份轉換了變成立法委員了那我是真的很想要幫立法院一把也就是讓我們有更彈性的人事任用的空間來補強我們這些這兩個預算中心法治局的同仁工作的協力"},{"start":23867.335,"end":23891.101,"text":"而這兩個法治局預算中心的專業人力的導入就可以正向的幫助立法委員問政品質的提升我花一點點時間我跟大家說我自己印象很深刻我上個會期上一屆在因應文化基本法要設文化發展基金這件事這是文化基本法的條文喔"},{"start":23891.821,"end":23909.202,"text":"文化基本法是基本法的位階,它等同於憲法賦予的憲法高度的基本法的位階,可是它要設一個文化發展基金卻卡在財政委員會的財政紀律法裡頭的規範,所以產生了條文跟條文之間的漢格。"},{"start":23910.579,"end":23927.357,"text":"我找了很多學者專家討論。外部的學者專家都跟我說:「四要委員,你是立法院委員,你應該找你們立法院的預算中心跟法治局的同仁跟你表達意見一起討論。」我從20幾年來,從立法院的助理當到立法委員。"},{"start":23928.218,"end":23939.81,"text":"我第一次我可以邀請預算中心法治局的人來到我辦公室一起討論我也印象很深刻我邀請他們來的時候來參與這個議題討論的同仁也都覺得沒有立委來找我們發表過意見"},{"start":23945.438,"end":23951.959,"text":"議員高金素梅等一）民進黨黨團擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案件及立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件及立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":23969.523,"end":23989.848,"text":"所以這個過程也讓我清楚的認知國會議員確實應當跟立法院的幕僚機關多一點討論多一點協力讓我們的監督的效能更有品質而同樣的我們來看看這麼多年來的預算中心跟法治局的人事的編制每天每當"},{"start":23993.806,"end":24014.112,"text":"那他們是需要最跟上時代的進步思維才可以協助立法委員有進步的立法跟預算的審查所以民主進步黨提了這個條文就是希望說法制局跟預算中心現在的研究員、副研究員跟助理研究員可以放寬他的人事聘任"},{"start":24014.952,"end":24041.006,"text":"的標準,那我們具體是希望能夠聘用誰呢?具教育人員任用資格的教授、副教授、助理教授以及講師資格者,可以進到國會的場域來提供他們外部的觀點跟專業的導入。我覺得這都是非常正面的。也許在原額的管控、聘任、聘用的這個討論上,我們等一下可以一起就教一起討論。"},{"start":24041.846,"end":24057.667,"text":"但是方向性上周恩來秘書長就這個條文也跟我表達過很多次您也是非常正向的樂觀以待所以我希望這個條文可以有所進展獲得大家的支持好 那麼這個條文好像沒有什麼不同意見嘛 有沒有不同意見"},{"start":24059.889,"end":24062.813,"text":"主席、各位委員,因為這個條文在民進黨黨團提案以後,是內部有請法書局在做研究。"},{"start":24076.406,"end":24091.921,"text":"我自己本身在這考試委員也瞭解拼用聯演拼用條例以現行法的規定跟民進黨所提的用拼用那是不可能解決的所以因為拼用跟聘任的意涵是不同"},{"start":24092.822,"end":24116.038,"text":"所以後來也請了法制局的一個副研究員專題去做研究我這邊有內參資料那如果用聘任的方式那可以解決解決到民進黨黨員所提的各位委員希望把法制局預算中心的強化他的幕僚功能但我在剛剛見民進黨的時候也特別有提過"},{"start":24116.698,"end":24116.938,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":24133.709,"end":24134.09,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":24150.071,"end":24150.311,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":24168.712,"end":24169.332,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":24193.337,"end":24193.357,"text":"案 。"},{"start":24206.653,"end":24207.213,"text":"條文修正草"},{"start":24223.319,"end":24223.879,"text":"條文修正草案案案例"},{"start":24246.365,"end":24247.126,"text":"條文修正草案案案例。"},{"start":24275.507,"end":24288.295,"text":"我個人是有跟幾個這兩個單位主管談是不是能夠其中的四分之一可以納出來有聘任的這些相關的人也進來那這樣的話可能會把這兩個單位會擴大"},{"start":24292.877,"end":24300.606,"text":"條文擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案件,在立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件,在立法院組織法部分條文擬具"},{"start":24314.46,"end":24335.18,"text":"那在限制未排除前不宜再用聘用人員禁用而改用聘任的方式為之那至於聘用人員跟聘任有什麼差別那我想在場我們這邊有考試院的保訓重規處的處長有權敘部的全審司的司長也有人總的好像沒有"},{"start":24339.195,"end":24362.468,"text":"人事總署也有編組人力處的處長,請教我們委員是不是要先請這幾位表示意見?來,柯總長。我們發言以後,他們有關於拼的那個營造就業人員,人家情緒部或是法制委員總的說法,我們都尊重專業的說法。我想說為什麼要有這一條?"},{"start":24364.105,"end":24385.339,"text":"剛才司法委員說他來立法院二十幾年,第一次找好幾人來研究法案,到一三中心。但是慈民而論我來三十幾年,那為什麼不找他們來研究法案呢?慈民而論法二十幾年和一三中心的人每一次寫的報告差不多一樣。"},{"start":24386.88,"end":24406.535,"text":"因為這些人都是公務人員,都是公務人員,那他們loading也蠻大的,比如說立法院委員有什麼法案出來,法治局馬上要寫他的評估報告,都很快,其實坦白講人力都有限,都很弱,尤其"},{"start":24407.864,"end":24435.323,"text":"我們國會改革國會合法的時候1993年到1999年成立國會合法的時候就成立國會圖書館法治及預算中心但是呢他的研發能量以及他們的法案能力應該亦以加強因為都是用公務人員嘛一叫有立法院提出法案出來他馬上會弄出來一下弄一本出來但是呢對我來講"},{"start":24436.684,"end":24458.343,"text":"每一個思維,再一次認為思維是不一樣。然後比如說,有一個我請專案委員我問你一個事情就好了。現在國會改革從哪裡出來?各版本完全沒有,不一致。請問我們法治局有沒有做一個評估報告出來?針對"},{"start":24461.045,"end":24485.487,"text":"現在國會改革這麼多版本差異度這麼大有沒有違憲啊有沒有怎麼樣我們有沒有做一個評估報告出來李博士請問你來講我大概2月6號我5號來就任嘛6號他們法治局就已經提了19個有關於國會改革的這個評估報告那最重要的是因為大家"},{"start":24487.088,"end":24506.355,"text":"整個聚焦在調查聽證所以我們在3月5號就有印了一個其他各個國家的有關於調查聽證的相關的事項都有提供給所以他聚焦在調查聽證有沒有在評估所謂總統來做國運報告幾問題大問題這些都高度要法證人才"},{"start":24513.19,"end":24519.898,"text":"而且還蠻想,這些人才寫出來認為就是說國民黨的有違憲之疑,他們覺得嚇"},{"start":24524.334,"end":24545.4,"text":"各位問這一個狀況,將來你用了評論連連他大概也不敢對...大家請問一下是什麼?不是...所以...欸...可以...欸...我只問你一句話,大家知道福尼維立法院佛字典,你上來,福尼大法院七三五四字你知道嗎?大法院四字七三五?"},{"start":24552.236,"end":24553.376,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":24575.825,"end":24603.528,"text":"我就是要繞開啦,你永遠上來,我們當初我們兩個衝突很厲害就是,林一十位可以不可以提不信任,那時候王院長時期嘛,你永不可以林一十位特定事項。我說沒有,不是現在是憲法層次的,隨時可以提出來,不是現在提出來的時候,你永不還,就學會馬上要召集會議。我們在這,在講在這一點上辯論很厲害,所以我高度懷疑你的憲法"},{"start":24604.872,"end":24605.572,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":24629.765,"end":24630.926,"text":"在憲法的概念上不一樣嘛"},{"start":24652.412,"end":24680.688,"text":"所謂去釋憲、七三五四字案當然林石瑞也可以提不信的案嘛所以我說為什麼我們要增加一些人力增加法證人才我應該說是想保守公民的心態是這個意思你不要我跟他在辯論中間你不必插嘴你要挑戰我可以我就來辯論他玩七三五四字你只要插上七三五四字這當然我提出來了嘛五八五也是我提的嘛所以當然他在立法院這麼久了"},{"start":24681.687,"end":24708.367,"text":"我會經驗這麼久是一點一滴累積堆積上來我以前是牙醫啊我沒辦法啊那是人一輩子都在學習我現在是2.5萬的牙醫為什麼?我專門虎口拔牙拔肝腦牙齒所以大家都在學習中嘛要檢討改進嘛其實我相信你是你一輩子一個很難過的事情那一直要為了這兩個人我們"},{"start":24712.356,"end":24740.281,"text":"衝突非常嚴重我認為你過分保守我知道民進黨當然是維護院長嘛我們黨長移執政你現在要用黨國思維來看待這個事情實在都轉變了所以這一條的意義在這裡要任用一些引進新聞系列出來法證人才等等跟他們人才進來我今天不是老虎這是事實存在我今天是不得不要把你點出這一點"},{"start":24741.579,"end":24742.559,"text":"今天所列的四個議程"},{"start":24771.007,"end":24790.86,"text":"報告委員會今天所列的這四個議程裡面四個案子裡頭請考試院來的是第四案第四案的部分是有關立法院的職權行使法那有關這個立法院的組織法部分並沒有請考試院列席了解了解好那不過呢"},{"start":24791.56,"end":24815.42,"text":"在這個地方我還是提醒就是說有關聘用人員聘用條例的部分他在第七條的部分有特別提到說有關這個有檢建委職務的這個部分如果是聘用人員的話他是不能夠兼任這些職務的在目前的聘用人員人事條例裡面是有這樣的一個規範那如果說"},{"start":24817.646,"end":24818.046,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":24837.306,"end":24864.372,"text":"提醒委員會就是說因為我們現行的聘用人員是條例的第七條它裡面有特別規定有一種情況就是說聘用人員的部分它是不能夠對於目前由簡建委職務的這些名稱是不能夠由聘用人員來做相關的一個職務的接任那如果說在目前民進黨黨團提出來的這個條文沒有去做調整的時候"},{"start":24864.952,"end":24882.94,"text":"再加上聘用人人事條例的剛剛我所提到的這個條文沒有修正的時候可能兩個部分就會有所判個敵處那這一點是提醒委員會以上好謝謝我們那個考試院的處長那這一點請大家看我們今天台灣對照表"},{"start":24883.76,"end":24900.679,"text":"的第七頁第七頁第28條的那個條文說明﹖立法說明好像剛剛處長講的意見就是在民進黨團提案的立法說明裡面那接續下來我們繼續請全序部全審次王司長"},{"start":24901.46,"end":24915.936,"text":"然後我這邊也在預告一下我們有教育部今天集的書妹意見當中他有就這個部分的表示意見所以待會也請教育部的列席的官員教育部是人事處的專門委員廖專委員請準備接下來我們請市長"},{"start":24920.061,"end":24942.239,"text":"總裁審討會,我是前系部前兩司司長王永道那針對這個提案就是因為民進黨黨團提案就是因為現行的那個條文跟那個聘用條例會有不合的一個地方所以實務上沒有去禁用聘用人人那聘用人人跟聘任人人的差別在於聘任人人是常務人人"},{"start":24943.18,"end":24962.369,"text":"按照《立法院組織法第25條、第26條》的規定,這些職務本來是公務人員的一個職務,公務人員本身也是常務人員。原先的規定反而是把它規定說可以用聘用人員來聘用,那聘用人員是臨時人員,兩個身份屬性是不一樣。"},{"start":24963.029,"end":24984.475,"text":"案件,其中一律師及其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位信任者之外,其他職位"},{"start":24986.175,"end":24988.016,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院主席賴瑞隆等"},{"start":25004.141,"end":25027.777,"text":"案,另外前夕部事實上現在正在擬兩個草案將來會送到考試院之後看看會不會送到大院來審查就是一個是7A人人人事條例那7A人人人事條例規定的對象就是A聘顧人員那另外有一個是聘任人人人事條例聘任人人人事條例就是可能這個地方他"},{"start":25028.217,"end":25049.155,"text":"規範規範規範"},{"start":25049.515,"end":25074.029,"text":"在我們還沒見過出來之前目前各機關他的聘任都是像這個地方建立修正的條文就是去准用教育人認用條例的規定是一致的那相關潛力事項現在就是說變成說在我們還沒見過出來之前就要由印裏面來自己去規定那以上補充說明謝謝我們還有任總"},{"start":25080.325,"end":25088.378,"text":"人總後再來教一步。清楚了,就來評論,因為我們說明欄裡面的演繹也是如此,你先講沒關係。"},{"start":25090.472,"end":25093.554,"text":"兩位再補充說明來翁委員請我其實很支持吳委員這裡說的就是未來我們的研究人員如果說能夠擴大到連這個具有一定學術資格的人員可以來擔任研究員只是說剛剛聽了就是幾個單位的說明那確實在這裡的條文的這個運用上尤其是拼用"},{"start":25113.329,"end":25138.338,"text":"人員條例,他的規定基本上是看起來就是只能聘類似像臨時就不是做很久的人員那如果說現在要做成是改成為聘任的話那麼我有一個問題就是那這些具有教育人員任用資格的教授、副教授、助理教授等等這些老師們他們未來在這個職等的轉任上面是怎麼樣處理"},{"start":25139.878,"end":25166.117,"text":"就是他們拼進來之後就是整個的他的職業的軌道就轉成變成是公務員了嗎?應該說他的身份他的身份還是那個聘任人員啦他只是他聘任人員跟公務人員一樣都是常任的性質他是比較身份地位比較有保障那聘用人員他是臨時性目前就是那個一年一聘"},{"start":25167.077,"end":25194.089,"text":"一聯一聘,他的保障他的性質因為比較是臨時人的性質比較沒有保障那至於他的那個等級通常因為他站的是我們公務人員的那個簡健委官職等的相當職務所以他會依照那個相當職務來對照教育人的相當等級來去聘任他也是會用的比如說教授、副教授、助理教授、助教授這樣的一個職稱來去聘任"},{"start":25196.015,"end":25218.188,"text":"另外我想請教秘書長的就是現在立法院到底有沒有是依照聘用人員條例所聘進來的研究員沒有一個都沒有因為但是聘用人員涉及到聘用人員的條例就很難應用所以也就是說現在現行條例的第28條其實向來也都沒有運用過"},{"start":25220.256,"end":25244.852,"text":"也沒有聘用人員,都是官職等人員。這是公務員。如果民進黨黨團提案,他同意按照秘書長修正這樣,沒有爭議嗎?這個我再補充一點,就是說我希望以後聘用人員要有公法學者。"},{"start":25245.828,"end":25269.537,"text":"這是很重要。還有憲法學者、公法學者。所以我剛才講為什麼我跟周恩來委員常常有對槓的時候,就最嚴重的那一次,就是不信任案。我希望有公法學者。"},{"start":25273.599,"end":25292.054,"text":"吳委員,待會如果有需要人事總處或教育部的練習官員我們再請他說明。來,先請吳思耀委員。所以就是我們把民進黨團,依民進黨團的提案,就是把第一項的聘用改聘任,然後第二項的前項聘用人員改成聘任人員,如果依民進黨團的黨團版本這樣來通過?"},{"start":25295.537,"end":25308.461,"text":"因為呢,剛剛雖然立法院你們有提供了一個修正動議,但其實是寫法差不多啦。要教你們這個,大家共同來決定啦,要教你們這個修正建議條文和草案,或是民進黨的黨團,方向就對了,就可以了啦。沒有,這條難道大家有共識多好?"},{"start":25317.83,"end":25323.175,"text":"議員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案 。議員高金素梅等23人擬具"},{"start":25340.663,"end":25362.126,"text":"秘書長的帶你的擬議的內容我這邊本來就是想要說我們剛好去年就做了一些主改的法案其實像在農事所就是農業試驗研究單位他們其實都有一定的一個體力他大概都是寫說屬的研究員及副研究員必要時得比照教育人員任用條例相關規定聘任之聘任之"},{"start":25362.626,"end":25389.392,"text":"對,然後其退休撫恤比照教師相關規定辦理並報相關主管機關來核定因為我們是會覺得用比照比較適合比照啦不要用準用啦不要用準用變成好像是身份完全謝謝那個這樣好不好那個修正東西可以再修正啦那個教育部他的文字也是寫比照啦那是不是請教育部的列席代表說明一下來那個"},{"start":25391.495,"end":25405.334,"text":"張亮專門委員主席跟各位委員齁那那個教育部的意見跟剛剛人事總署的類似啊齁就在體力上我們也是比較建議用比照的方式然後比照教育人員的方式來運用以上"},{"start":25410.847,"end":25436.965,"text":"主席準用才是法律原理耶,比照是我們覺得是我們法律上很少用比照這兩個字啊有啦那個很少勒比照跟準用概念是不一樣的啦因為相近的話才會用準用來用啦那你現在的一個是本來是這裡如果是用聘任的話他有三種來源啦"},{"start":25439.006,"end":25465.956,"text":"案,因此我們會用準用的概念來,即使我們算了,如果初步來講,如果用以這個教授為教授來到這一個單位,他的待遇比現有的公務員待遇高,他們也算過了,大概,甚至教授也搭了兩萬多塊的錢,他們也算給我看是,大概我沒有拿出來,大概多是比現在的公務員員的"},{"start":25467.136,"end":25468.997,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":25497.031,"end":25499.934,"text":"每個列舉牌。每個列舉牌。每個列舉牌。每個列舉牌。每個列舉牌。"},{"start":25517.892,"end":25535.61,"text":"考論事項第一案修正動議二立法院組織法第二十八條修正條文第二十八條、第二十五條及第二十六條所列之研究員、副研究員、助理研究員得准用教育人員任用條例聘任之"},{"start":25536.371,"end":25563.621,"text":"前向聘任人員之臨聘、原額、待遇、業務、管理及考核事項由立法院定之提案人委員林思明、柯建明、聯署人謝龍介、委員謝龍介、羅志強、翁曉琳、吳宗憲、吳思瑤、沈發慧、陳俊宇、沈伯陽。詢讀完畢。好,那麼我們本案是不是很難得今天進行到這裡我們就照修正動議法案通過"},{"start":25565.549,"end":25565.95,"text":"三）委員賴瑞隆等"},{"start":25591.377,"end":25619.247,"text":"那接下來我們就進行三十二條三十二條是委員賴瑞隆和委員高金素梅的兩個不同提案那麼委員這邊因為兩個委員的案子雖然都只是增加一項但是內容是很不一樣一個是公費助理的法制化一個是委員的一些資用費用要希望立法院另行那先請各位委員表示意見"},{"start":25622.509,"end":25645.898,"text":"高金委員,雖然他不在場,但是他有特別表示說他的案子保留到黨團來協商。保留黨團協商。來,那請問民進黨黨團這邊。我們尊重啦,沒有關係。好,那麼,那是不是我們...我們不接受審判啦。好,兩位委員的提案我們都保留送政黨協商。"},{"start":25648.477,"end":25674.847,"text":"案。接下來我們進行33條是高金委員的提案。國民黨委員提議也是保留政黨協商。接下來我們增訂第三十三條之三是民進黨團提案。請問大家對國會簽協案有看好嗎?這應該也可以成為一個……是不是也可以成為我們這次的共識之一?"},{"start":25676.314,"end":25693.687,"text":"三十條之三賴秘書長請三十條之三齁在我們中央行政機關組織基礎法裡面的規定啦但我們目前的立法院的組織也是要準用中央行政機關的組織法的規定機關的組織法規不會把這個列在裡面"},{"start":25699.542,"end":25703.246,"text":"所以我個人比較研究一個建議是不是可以請委員把這一個條文改為互代決議當然我們也正在很積極地已經有簽給院長那可能要透過黨團協商來極力地去推動這個了"},{"start":25720.842,"end":25726.586,"text":"案件,因此在幕僚的立場,我是認為這條案是不再增訂,用一個互代決議來處理,請各位委員斟酌看看。"},{"start":25735.322,"end":25760.608,"text":"這個我有不同意見這只是一個先知性條款立法院組織法一定要面對這個而且我很知道我進來的時候就開始三十幾年國會簽簽案當時有華山案要三百多億後來因為有一個立法委員,我不好意思講啦他說立法院怎麼可以簽簽在另外蓋一個立法院這個有違反我們要反攻大陸原則"},{"start":25763.001,"end":25764.202,"text":"一）立法院組織法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":25777.952,"end":25797.357,"text":"這個你本來應該考慮到未來國會品質提升要問問空間這個是大家都很清楚但是呢只是說因為委員長那時候做很多只是考慮要簽證或是扣件案留一個在立法院組織法裡面這個有何不可能這個還要互來結議這麼有什麼大事要互來結議啊"},{"start":25802.448,"end":25821.123,"text":"來,請那個是林委員先,然後再來羅委員,再來吳委員。這個什麼時候會落實的,不知道啊。那個,總長好。這樣的立法齁,我們看來真的是很奇怪。立法院要不要簽訂的事情,自己在立法院的組織法裡面去訂說應及早規劃國會擴建簽簽案。"},{"start":25824.428,"end":25825.169,"text":"條文修正草案"},{"start":25842.641,"end":25845.224,"text":"法律用宣誓性的條文定在法規裡面我們覺得這個立法技術上是有很大的問題"},{"start":25860.522,"end":25872.529,"text":"對阿,我看來北医把宣誓性的東西讓我很尊重你,不是,這樣看起來真的說,把我們立法院的牽涉的問題,把它寫說應急早規劃,這大家都知道阿沒有錯,但是你用立法去規範這件事情,對阿"},{"start":25884.332,"end":25895.041,"text":"第十會期、第九會期我們都沒去說這個我想你第九會期、第十會期應該也都知道說有院長也一直講要簽證啊但是我們也沒說所以說所以我們有一個委員會去推動他就好了不用立法啦我們說實在的沒有法律去規定啦準統秘書長"},{"start":25907.532,"end":25926.247,"text":"如果大家有爭議就保留了黨團協商。其實我想柯總長您對這個國會的牽涉應該是有很大的情感投入也關注很多人其實你的論點我覺得也都很有價值但是我們其實爭點不是國會的擴建跟牽涉今天爭點是這個東西放在那個立法院組織法"},{"start":25928.589,"end":25946.102,"text":"案件,我認為我們可能要再斟酌一下。為什麼?因為你從社會大眾的觀感來看會覺得第一個立法體力有這樣做的嗎?這是立法體力。第二就是說我們立法院就把國會的擴建、增建然後簽件把它放到立法院組織法。我覺得可以有別的方式處理。"},{"start":25950.385,"end":25950.405,"text":"判斷"},{"start":25971.423,"end":25988.208,"text":"你以法院要蓋過、要簽件、要開三七八一,老百姓看得下去嗎?只是此刻國會印象不是很好。但是呢,扣薪案總可以談嘛。康也那邊曾經在蘇院長的時候,蘇院院長說,他昨晚在扣薪案。"},{"start":25988.948,"end":26006.956,"text":"而且說立法院裡面包括抗議那邊還有國民黨用的那些警察那邊是不是可以蓋個大樓?這個都可以討論。但是這個已經搞了三十幾年,我們今天只是先是強管在這裡,並沒有圖利自己。因為等到真的有這個回事的時候,我們都不在立法院了。因為有要表示發言人,好像有翁委員跟吳委員,是不是?來翁委員先。"},{"start":26015.536,"end":26040.181,"text":"我還是同樣的意見認為三十三條之三定在這裡其實是不合組織法的體例那我也非常支持柯總召的說法就是這個立法院的擴建簽件案應該要儘早處理是不是可以之後在不同的場合比如在院會正式提案然後我們定一個時程定一個日期然後趕快去做這個因為及早應及早規劃這也是一個"},{"start":26042.842,"end":26056.053,"text":"這不確定的名詞嘛對不對這到底要急找到什麼時候我建議是說這個條文其實真的利益良善可是呢不適合定在組織法"},{"start":26062.432,"end":26084.097,"text":"我個人的看法是這樣,拖了二、三十年,我再一次強調國會不管是簽建或是擴建都是下一個世代的事情。我們是為未來的世代來爭取一個很好的、有國會象徵的、有民主高度的國會新建築。"},{"start":26085.464,"end":26092.69,"text":"那如果說不入法,不入法,咱的附帶決議只得算了嗎?"},{"start":26095.496,"end":26122.485,"text":"這麼多年來就是沒有人勇敢的去面對我們的國會擴建或簽建的作為。那現行我們在面對國會改革,把面向拉得大一點。我們一直認為國會改革的面向不是只有國會的權力的擴充,它當然還必須賦予我們職能的提升跟責任的賦予跟自我的自律跟克責。"},{"start":26123.615,"end":26149.453,"text":"但另外一個部分國會的改革很大的一部分空間會去導引人的運作人的行為為什麼我以一個辦公室的空間會議室的空間來說一個好的規劃案會有利於一個討論的效能這就是為什麼司法法制委員會到底是坐下來質詢還是又改回去"},{"start":26149.813,"end":26152.935,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條"},{"start":26168.624,"end":26194.357,"text":"我舉這個例子就是在告訴大家需要藉由空間的導向新的思維的導入去改造國會問政的新的模式所以國會的改建絕對是一個重要的國會改革的一個更大的面向的議題但如果你不用法律去明定它我就再次說附帶決議多得像山一樣"},{"start":26195.731,"end":26216.72,"text":"所以立法院組織法是我們橫著在山認為是以放入這樣一個條文的法律案如果說大家對於及早這兩個字的時程意涵不是那麼了解那我也可以同意應進行國會擴建簽件案"},{"start":26220.095,"end":26231.18,"text":"條文就是應進行這事實上我們也在ING也在進行嘛如果大家只是擔心這個及早的這個時程不夠明確但是大家都理解跟同意"},{"start":26232.15,"end":26254.948,"text":"要讓這個事情成為跨黨派共同推進的國會改革的一部分。」所以如果及早兩個字我是可以認為就是如果就文字上失聲的不確定性的話就把33條之三應及早規劃國會擴建簽件案可以調整為應進行規劃國會擴建簽件案往前走一步"},{"start":26255.689,"end":26266.753,"text":"往前推一把,有法律的授權,大家能夠很清楚的依法行事。」這是我們提這個案子的緣由。主席,個人建議,就直接要求秘書長"},{"start":26276.889,"end":26297.892,"text":"那本院在今年度要審了在明年度114年的預算編列立法院的擴簽件的規劃案的這個預算然後要求他在明年發包我講一下好了來那個我也不知道有沒有來柯委柯總召"},{"start":26298.618,"end":26320.527,"text":"各位,所謂國會改革,當然有職業基金司法,還有立法院組織法、各委員組織法,也有立法院行為法、議事規則等。這是1993年以後到1999年這樣走出來。那要了解,在我們進來,第二屆進來以前的立法委員他是沒有當公司的。"},{"start":26321.673,"end":26345.653,"text":"頂多一個黨黨辦公室,沒有辦公室。我進來的時候辦公室是四個桌子,擠了八個人。我常常睡在地板上,在青島會館的時候。我現在的空間一直改善,後來有青島會館,有中心會館等等。前世的國會沒有這樣如此的啊。國會要做國會的重點。"},{"start":26347.199,"end":26371.246,"text":"而有空間,空間的改革也是一種改革。並不是說大家要像這個也是改革過的。因為開會的時候為什麼要解開?有爭議的時候,所有的記者擠來組一台,根本沒有辦法開會啊。所以這個是以前高的女校的,它是以前歷史建築的。"},{"start":26372.799,"end":26375.609,"text":"那也應得到用到今天我們要誠實的面對這個問題我們沒有要圖利的任務問題"},{"start":26379.571,"end":26403.292,"text":"另外國會圖書館是不是要弄大?其實國會圖書館是不是要弄很像國會圖書館?我們剛才講法治及預算中心,我們也希望它能夠增加。這個是對於另外一個問政這樣有幫助的。我們另外一個不是每天好好弄的,要對下的。但是另外一個問政品質和空間也有很大的關係。"},{"start":26405.624,"end":26428.806,"text":"在這樣的擁擠環境裏面,國家國會它有運動場所什麼都有。各位你知道美國國會的時候,在地下有地鐵,那個是一個國會山莊啊。這才有一個真正先進機關的基本的專業性。所以這不是沒什麼空間。"},{"start":26430.168,"end":26435.372,"text":"然後我們可以聽兜範來一句話說你怎麼不封在決議這是這樣嗎各位一環是大家要維護的這是封在這裡一個先施一條環盡早規劃不然要放在哪裡"},{"start":26447.839,"end":26464.689,"text":"所以各位不要排斥,過去對於國會簽卷我是非常悲觀的,但我覺得擴建還有一點空間,但是沒有關係,新的國會也有新的民意,大家再去討論看看。"},{"start":26466.581,"end":26490.519,"text":"好那麼陳委員請發言好謝謝主席那因為我們國會本身算是百年建築了如果以早期的921跟最近的0403來看這個當然也讓我們要重新檢討我們現行的這些建築物的安全性那也在0403的這一場地震裡面看到我們確實"},{"start":26491.8,"end":26492.3,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":26520.175,"end":26538.149,"text":"這個他指擴建甚至在他指牽見的這個方案當中我是認為說應該是要及早去做規劃了那我們好不容易在上一屆那已經有勾選出6個這個點的位置也非常的明確"},{"start":26539.51,"end":26564.498,"text":"這六個點適不適合應該我們秘書長這邊是不是盡早跟我們院長這邊來做一個報告並且成立新的這個我們的這個委員會來繼續推動把我們整個大家所期待的這些這個國會的整個形象重新塑造起來那其實在我們旁邊這個康源"},{"start":26566.904,"end":26573.608,"text":"案、警察宿舍等條文修正草案 案、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 案、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案"},{"start":26588.217,"end":26589.518,"text":"案案案案案案案"},{"start":26610.512,"end":26613.395,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條"},{"start":26634.062,"end":26652.877,"text":"所以這個安全問題我相信非常的重要秘書長應該也能夠體認那我請秘書長這邊應該要積極的來推動這個不管是有沒有入法最主要最主要就是不希望遙遙無期已經經過二三十年還沒看到我們"},{"start":26653.902,"end":26666.608,"text":"整個國會改建的這個方案有實際在動工的情形這讓我們是感覺有一點遺憾這部分請秘書長再來繼續加油好謝謝最後我們吳委員表示意見"},{"start":26667.835,"end":26681.746,"text":"再花一點時間跟大家探討我再次強調這樣子對話是非常有意義的終於針對國會的擴建或簽件可以讓立法委員也就是立法院的主要使用者可以藉由一個法案的審議過程來做對話"},{"start":26684.228,"end":26699.024,"text":"案。過去對於國會的擴建或簽建,除了由錫坤院長非常勇於認識的組成了專家諮詢會,立法院也組成了跨黨派的委員會議,但是從來都沒有一個像今天這麼"},{"start":26700.626,"end":26718.447,"text":"慎重藉由審查法案的過程大家可以經過對話被記錄這個是非常重要的事情這也是為什麼民主進步黨要在立法院組織法法案的修正提出這樣一個條文讓它成為一個法律的授權"},{"start":26719.673,"end":26737.398,"text":"依法行事,未來的立法院不管誰多數,不管誰是院長,不管政黨如何的交換席次、政黨輪替,都應當依法來推行立法院的國會簽建或擴建案。"},{"start":26738.138,"end":26765.603,"text":"所以為什麼要入法在這裡那我再進一步論述剛剛柯總召講到的早在1993年李登輝的時代當初就選擇要在華山車站的舊址就是現在的華山義文大草坪的地方要簽建國會可是當時有審查委員就因為政黨的意識形態那時候挑戰了李登輝你要蓋新國會是不是就代表台灣要獨立了"},{"start":26767.823,"end":26782.07,"text":"所以當時的審查委員認為說如果蓋了新國會就代表中華民國回不到南京去了也因此在政治的意識形態之下新國會計畫不了了之這是1993年"},{"start":26784.133,"end":26809.932,"text":"在1999年的時候新國會也重新選址第二次很慎重的選址要在空總、空軍總部的就職而且那個時候有編了預算有241.5億的預算也編了可是那個時候又因為政治的因素臺北市議會認為那塊地臺北市有主導權然後部分的立法院的黨團又有意見了"},{"start":26811.107,"end":26816.446,"text":"那當然那個時候很不幸的發生了九二一地震也因為國家經費要去救災"},{"start":26817.665,"end":26843.505,"text":"所以在一個救災為先那他的背後更因為有政黨意識形態的不同所以讓新國會好不容易選址了也編列預算了向前一大步了預算就反映政策嘛有預算就必須執行嘛所以呢那個時候新國會簽件案的預算就被收回國會的簽件案再次二度落空所以為什麼要入法"},{"start":26844.44,"end":26852.805,"text":"入法就是不論誰執政法律保障授權這個事件要被落實要被推進"},{"start":26854.264,"end":26879.96,"text":"不論誰執政,不再受時空條件的轉換而受影響。」我聽了大家的意見,各黨的委員都支持國會要慎重的去面對我們的空間不足,然後需要一個新的革新的空間,大家都同意。如果這樣的話,唯一能夠確保不受政治因素來干擾的國會簽建案或擴建案可以往前走,入法。"},{"start":26881.161,"end":26909.497,"text":"就是一個最好的方式他是有法律的效力的這就是為什麼我作為民進黨國會改革小組的召集人討論這個條文我們非常的慎重我們認為在立法院組織法裡頭國會改革關鍵的時刻把空間的改革也作為國會改革的一個面向它有意義性、它有實質性、它有時代性所以我再次請求大家以民進黨的版本來做通過"},{"start":26911.039,"end":26911.54,"text":"事由．委員"},{"start":26922.509,"end":26948.372,"text":"不要掩飾你的認同吧!就是說你現在你講好像說我們沒有立法我們就好像沒有一個法規依據去做立法院的簽件擴建那實際上是這樣嗎?不是啊即便我們沒有今天沒有這個立這個法一樣我們還是我們的院長還是可以指示我們的秘書處趕快去規劃立法院的簽件擴建的這件事"},{"start":26949.893,"end":26950.213,"text":"條文修正草"},{"start":26968.384,"end":26968.725,"text":"條文宣誓"},{"start":26984.835,"end":26987.437,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":27012.601,"end":27013.202,"text":"賴瑞隆等23人擬具"},{"start":27030.08,"end":27049.585,"text":"我的意思是我跟陳委員在我備詢的過程當中我一直強調以我個人立場一定是對於這個擴建新建我一定以個人立場我一定極益去推動這個東西那我現在為什麼一直好像各位好像我很堅持不是"},{"start":27050.365,"end":27057.532,"text":"因為各位瞭解到中央行政區機關組織法第七條及三十八條規定機關的組織法規有零定的範圍所以因為組織法規的設計在體力上以幕僚的角度來看這個組織法設計上是不是擺在這邊是可以大家去斟酌的所以我才提出來了"},{"start":27074.807,"end":27076.168,"text":"條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":27103.084,"end":27108.166,"text":"條文修正草案案案件,其中一條條文修正草案案件,其中一條條條文修正草案案件,其中一條條條文修正草案案件,其中一條條條文修正草案案件,"},{"start":27130.692,"end":27136.376,"text":"我才提出這個意見並不是我反對這個擴建所以我必須要做澄清補充的事情謝謝民進黨因為時間齁從兩點到現在我們很認真的做了兩個超過兩個小時的處理我們先五位委員後我們就做處理好不好"},{"start":27166.164,"end":27183.508,"text":"我個人還是認為在研議這個條文過程是幾經非常慎重的思量也跟專業界充分的對話所以我是希望民主金融黨的立場還是用這樣一個條文來加速我們對於國會牽涉擴建的一個意志力的執行"},{"start":27184.713,"end":27205.42,"text":"那我也希望周秘書長我非常尊重您今天在討論民進黨的版本的意見裡頭那您在您秘書長幕僚長的這個身份上提出了很多您的建議跟見解我只是要提醒您未來有機會進入職權刑事法的討論過程你就應當本與你的法律專業去講該講的話"},{"start":27208.081,"end":27234.008,"text":"不要選擇性的有預設立場的針對誰的版本誰的條文那引經據典法律秩序怎麼樣立法技術怎麼樣我只是要做這個提醒我非常希望幕僚獎未來在不同的版本的討論過程也應當勇於發言否則我發現在其他的版本在討論的過程當中您都選擇噤聲不敢講話這樣不好好我做這個提醒"},{"start":27234.948,"end":27260.247,"text":"因為我們討論事項第一案討論在這裡已經也超過一個半小時了是不是我們做個處理這個是不是也雖然兩邊的意見都很有道理我們就可以提醒一下好不好因為這位秘書長剛才有提到我們兩個是同年的那都訊號你出了直面問我們對於這個國家以及未來對我來講的話"},{"start":27262.147,"end":27286.578,"text":"這些做完十屆也應該剛好還想避免泄客。我只讓政治生命的移民來貢獻給這個國家。在立法院裡面的經驗,我們兩個,你剛才說民國六十二人進來,你是走公務人員生涯,我是走民意代表生涯,那個邏輯思維是不一樣的。我都做了二十幾年的民進黨總召,"},{"start":27289.008,"end":27314.192,"text":"在民進黨我三十年在立法院裡面我一半時間在在野黨一半時間在民進黨當然我們思維是不一樣我知道你寫很多立法院教科書但是我記得這個內閣委員第一次問你的時候之前先問你說你就看我的書就好了你應該勇於發言勇於堅韓為你的然後韓為"},{"start":27319.819,"end":27326.392,"text":"應該捍衛你的理想。諸如此類,但是要若若切實若實。"},{"start":27329.707,"end":27345.573,"text":"我剛才跟你講那反正七三五四就是我們倆衝突最厲害的時候但是我也很懷念你過去當秘書長的時候在立法院複密的時候在南市議議事處署長的時候我們兩個常常有爭辯但是我們兩個爭辯我叫黃國昌最正的"},{"start":27351.135,"end":27373.713,"text":"我們是在法律上面有不能看法,因為你不要保守,是不要認,而且假設也必須如此。因為一共五萬嘛。草案協商有紀錄有參加七百場以上。法案我自己看過照常經過至少五千個案子以上。"},{"start":27375.852,"end":27400.958,"text":"當黨團總召,每一個案子我都會看。所以,通常講一句話,衝突在社會起在立法院。那你一改革,變成一個社會議題的,到立法院來,最後還是我要代表民進黨黨團去捍衛、去爭辯。那我不認為,在這個地方,你一直好像很有道理在一直論辯這個事情。"},{"start":27402.938,"end":27420.705,"text":"所以組織法,我是說空間也是組織改善的。空間也是組織改善的。那這有何不可?有違憲嗎?對不對?那就不必,真的要違憲的時候,等一下我希望能開完的時候,好去登場,立法院直接刑處啊。"},{"start":27424.674,"end":27442.564,"text":"總統來做國運報告可以集中離黨,沒有修正可以嗎?你永遠都講不清楚。那我都能提醒一下,我們兩個人一輩子在立法院,那是角色立場不同。我相信我們不是要對立的,我跟黃昌是不客氣的。"},{"start":27447.044,"end":27450.491,"text":"希望大家可以聯繫立法院的侯志遠等等。"},{"start":27453.753,"end":27475.811,"text":"論投你在這方面的努力以及貢獻,然時並不是你講的沒錯,都對。你要了解,另外一個主體是立法院,不是民主黨你回來會去推動,這個不會改革,不會改革,不是你一個人推動得了,大家一起來的。"},{"start":27477.032,"end":27501.682,"text":"至於謝文雄議員剛才講的,這沒有規劃、沒有選址、沒有一個很好的規劃,可依應評估的話,依算如何拼。所以我們今天是理性的。我們是理性的。那當然我希望新的院長來。我也跟韓院長講一句話,我們是同班同學。"},{"start":27503.007,"end":27530.924,"text":"三十年前我們同時進了立法院,三屆同學我當總召不會變成總統,到頂了你當立法院院長也應該到頂,讓共同好做些事情我是這樣的必須這樣非常勉勵我希望接下去立法院執行刑事法以能夠大聲講出憲政理論所以我一直講說一定要有公法學者嘛我們不是一個法將"},{"start":27532.588,"end":27549.206,"text":"我們不需要培養一個法將,我們要培養一個有視野的立法工作者。同時我們也希望議團中心法治局也是要有一個時代轉變的新的喉水進來才對。"},{"start":27551.135,"end":27571.214,"text":"好,謝謝我們柯總召。這樣好不好?因為時間的關係,我想也要讓他有一點時間休息去解決生理上的需求。那是不是我們本案,我就做這樣的一個宣告。那第五條剛暫保留,那是不是剛剛的處理方式,我們就已送政黨協商。"},{"start":27572.495,"end":27601.433,"text":"那第十五條因為本來有一個修正動議那因為牽涉到其他為草案在位涵蓋的條文我們就不予處理那第十五條就送草野協商正黨協商然後呢徵訂第三十條、三十三條之三我們也是送政黨協商好所以最後呢我們民進黨黨團擬具立法院組織法部分條文修正草案等四案"},{"start":27602.486,"end":27606.647,"text":"逐條均已處理完畢。做以下宣告一、全案審查完畢並按擬具審查報告提請原委公決。本案須交由黨團協商。"},{"start":27627.813,"end":27656.368,"text":"那院會討論時由召集委員嘉賓出席說明那另外條次引述條文部分文字及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員整理請問我們在場委員是否同意沒問題那我們就這樣做本案審訊的宣告好那現在時間我們休息五分鐘報告不夠大家去使用趕快我們休息五分鐘謝謝"},{"start":27979.551,"end":28006.577,"text":"好繼續開會那麼因為第一案已經審峻那麼與第一案已經審峻所以跟第一案只跟第一案相關的列席的人員可以先行離開那麼我們接下來進行討論事項第二案繼續審查國民黨黨團擬具立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案等三案那我們是不是就開始進行好"},{"start":28008.12,"end":28034.95,"text":"那我們就是直接比照地案的方式行為法民進黨團擬具的立法委員行為法第七條追及第三十條條文修正草等三案那我們就是不是比照地案的方式我們就直接進行逐條審查那可以的話那我們就進行來請你不就坐著講就好了"},{"start":28042.546,"end":28045.729,"text":"有臨時提案喔?好吧你先提案說明啦 但是他是臨時提案啦沒關係啦"},{"start":28054.377,"end":28080.988,"text":"剛剛接下來我們就是要進到民進黨的深水區包括行為法包括國會改革所有的案子本席是建議就是因為之前國民黨版的這個國會改革的法案其實社會大眾有很多的討論那這些討論也都是民進黨促成的因為民進黨之前我們在提案就開始要審查的時候就認為說要有充足的討論"},{"start":28082.088,"end":28097.877,"text":"那包括就我們中憲召委就特別安排一場專報然後我們也安排一場公聽會讓大家來檢視國民黨的一個國會改革的提案版本那到底有哪些地方聽聽社會大眾的意見"},{"start":28098.837,"end":28099.057,"text":"國民黨版國會改革法案"},{"start":28117.954,"end":28137.211,"text":"因此中間中交兵召委就可以召開兩次針對國民黨版的國會改革法案的兩場公聽會所以我覺得這個民進黨版的國會改革法案其實我個人當然有很多的疑慮但是我想這些疑慮如果只是在今天這邊這麼倉促的"},{"start":28138.912,"end":28159.348,"text":"做逐條的討論,可能我覺得不足以讓社會大眾瞭解到底民進黨的版本跟現在社會大眾的期待落差是什麼,特別是跟2016年的版本的落差是什麼所以我這邊特別跟提案就是說,鑒於國會改革法案對我國憲政運作至關重要"},{"start":28160.109,"end":28181.996,"text":"目前通過之臺灣民眾黨黨團副坤祺委員等版本皆經過三次公聽會審議一次專案報告所以審議民進黨黨團所提出的立法院職權行使法部分條文修正案那再加上我這邊再把補上那個關於給我一個筆好了還有那個借我一次筆"},{"start":28182.981,"end":28200.656,"text":"還有包括立法委員行為法等相關的一些修正草案那應比照讓社會充分審議討論所以進行三次公聽會跟一次專案報告後我們再來逐條審查是否有當然再進行公決容我再加一句話"},{"start":28206.994,"end":28210.075,"text":"議員主席賴瑞隆為何要這樣生動站起來整個國會改革從上禮拜一開始到現在今天還勉強可以進入主條討論"},{"start":28235.68,"end":28256.778,"text":"當然是在上一次的時候也是同樣的案子是被沒收的當然我們黨有作為調整我們是可以歡迎的那是從開始國會改善禮拜一武中縣委員所提的開張當召委"},{"start":28258.064,"end":28283.38,"text":"事實上大家都知道這裡面有一個非常愚笨的楊某這個非常愚笨的楊某是什麼?那大家都很清楚也就是說昨天朱委員有講到這個520以後先請賴總統來做國情報告及問及答他是這樣的楊某所以他以為會開怪車"},{"start":28285.601,"end":28303.394,"text":"所以在上禮拜一的時候,在先前的時候就要開始處理,我們要有公聽會,後來改為半天公聽會,到另外半天完畢就4月3號那一天,下午就要開始審查。"},{"start":28304.615,"end":28328.812,"text":"剛好發生花蓮大地震,婦孕期也走了。所以這樣的時空,這上帝的意旨讓這個我們能夠國會改革能夠走到今天。但是呢接下來吳宗森委員只開在我們今天底下只開一次公聽會,沒有辦法涵蓋所有題目。所以下來了輪圖召委換誰?換鍾小平委員,他開了兩次公聽會。"},{"start":28333.815,"end":28352.611,"text":"我們希望就是說,本來國會改革,過去在2016的時候,你們常常講民進黨的版本,因為那版本常常講沒有共識,所以我們就不用了。但是呢,有共識的部分也改很多,包括立法院組織法。"},{"start":28354.333,"end":28380.514,"text":"議員長必須推出政黨、議員長必須議事中立、直播等等,不是沒有改。那最主要噴出到最核心的問題就是大法院五八四次有關於國會調查權的問題。那個是當年三一所政調會我提的,而且引起人們到縣法庭辯論。這是20年前的事情。主要今天再回頭噴到當然是國會調查權的問題。"},{"start":28383.357,"end":28400.736,"text":"那可是呢國民黨在國外改革版本裡面無限制扣錢違憲所以我問說法治局敢寫出來他真正版本抽取的地方在什麼地方當然要有一些公法學者、憲法學者"},{"start":28402.339,"end":28429.121,"text":"這是國會運政品質上應很重要的所以國民黨的揚謀很清楚嘛那吳宗森15號組織的時候我們就說差一天我們就可以憑良審查但是傅文綺委員和黃國昌委員各只有一腳前後壓陣開派車那吳宗森委員也很無奈我說不應該如此有你去我們總召供啦這我國語人嘛 也不能說國語人"},{"start":28432.143,"end":28454.369,"text":"那所以我們看到那天4月15號當天是什麼場景?這場景當然就是一路壓下去嘛。他要怎麼?他計算520嘛。他計算說4月15號出委員會,最快的時候是怎麼講?5月17號那天禮拜五嘛。因為可以表決。然後接下去就要總統來做國情報告、基本局長。這違憲嘛。"},{"start":28459.83,"end":28488.729,"text":"朱雲昨天也再次講過一次,國民黨中常委也再次講過一次但是我們的回答,包括賴總統回答一定要合憲底下當然合憲底下做什麼事情都沒有問題你又可以用刑法141條於被執行的時候只要稀有陳述名是國會之嫌罪罪刑法所以說總統都可能被抓讓卸任以後再進行偵辦這過程大家很清楚"},{"start":28490.13,"end":28518.051,"text":"這是一個非常疑問的揚駁那今天假裝在這裡跟我們細語為舌好像這個最不重要的事情讓你來討論但是呢各位今天以後各位今天以後大家都知道這個列車已經開往5月17號因為要表決了所以我建議先建議今天的委員會開會到晚上12點"},{"start":28519.6,"end":28534.463,"text":"事於開公認會,坦白講,我們主張要開公認會,主張公認會。但在這個時空滾滾壓縮底下,這些政治洋謀底下,你今天講說要開公認會,市場是一個反兵之計啦。"},{"start":28535.524,"end":28559.247,"text":"本來看起來很有理由,那為什麼你們只有開半天公聽會,不是剩下明天再補兩天?過去國會改革只有一年多,那時候只有一年多,通過部分條文,有些條文我們覺得不妥,雖然國會有多數,我們也不敢通過。那要講道理講清楚嘛,那人家開公聽會可以,"},{"start":28561.569,"end":28574.108,"text":"今天出委員會以後,在月月表決前本來還可以開公認會各位看到,農村再生條例,農田水域會出法,出委會還可以開公認會"},{"start":28576.067,"end":28596.81,"text":"所以你不要用這樣開通聽會之詞想要以子之矛攻子之盾不可得也我想一頭二手不錯但是不夠聰明啦那這個楊博大家看得很清楚嘛你就這個時候把他們所有法案全部打掉了不能並案審查嘛"},{"start":28598.285,"end":28602.749,"text":"委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":28614.478,"end":28618.742,"text":"新的院長兩個禮拜內要來立法院被尋三天以前要送聲明報告你要叫賴總統先來請問這有何興趣嗎我在這裡講了很多次"},{"start":28632.974,"end":28658.891,"text":"這立法院負責是行政、國家最大行政機關你可以來背行它我們有執行之前你對於行政部門的不滿可以提出新的案讓它國會全部來改選但是今天我們知道副總理很安心的派你們去合作要給我們隔啊好像因為很民主的樣子那禮拜一的情況是完全沒有在委員會"},{"start":28660.213,"end":28664.084,"text":"現在的國會是忽然間黃國昌講了算了"},{"start":28667.205,"end":28689.545,"text":"所以我在這裏告訴羅委員、羅志強,你揚某未免太揚某,是一個非常愚笨的揚某。我們今天先開會到晚點12點,大家先吐一口嘛,不然早上一點,明天早上也是又凍完。過去我剛才有講過,我第二天進來的時候都睡在地板上面,"},{"start":28690.766,"end":28715.285,"text":"在視頻的空間裏面在地板上面我們是這樣一路走過來的我們要對於意思負責所以我建議所謂開公共會沒有關係除了委員會表決前還可以開公共會很多上次那個農林手藝會是電子活動組織公共會這立法院對我所案例所以希望不用太"},{"start":28717.185,"end":28718.206,"text":"二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具"},{"start":28732.827,"end":28761.02,"text":"好,謝謝主席。針對羅志強委員提的這個提案我也發表一下我的意見。剛剛柯建民總召說羅志強委員是ㄎㄧㄤ,我看起來不是ㄎㄧㄤ,是ㄎㄧㄤ,你知道嗎?羅委員不好意思,我很尊敬您,但是看看您的臨時提案的內容是這樣寫的。本委員會委員羅志強等人,就是在場的國民黨籍的委員們,鑒於國會改革法案對我國憲政運作至關重要。好,到這裡都對。"},{"start":28762.521,"end":28765.807,"text":"日前通過之臺灣民眾黨黨團副坤祺委員等版本皆經過三場公聽會審議,還有一次專案報告。"},{"start":28773.203,"end":28799.255,"text":"顧審理民主進步黨黨團所提的立法院職權稀釋法部分條文修正草案一應比照然後立法委員行為法民進黨版也一應比照來交開公聽會讓社會充分審議討論所以羅志強委員提案說至少要再舉行三次的公聽會及一次的專案報告才能夠進行逐條審查羅志強委員您的這個提案啊就是示範了什麼叫做藐視國會你知道嗎"},{"start":28801.485,"end":28821.138,"text":"因為你這個提案的內容都是虛偽不實之陳述啊我們委員會針對國會改革在這一屆交開三場的公聽會一場是吳宗憲交委交開的兩場是由鍾嘉斌委員交開的時間分別是4月3號、4月10號跟4月11號"},{"start":28825.49,"end":28843.465,"text":"錄委員您可能貴人多忘事,如果您有來參與公聽會您當可以記得在眾嘉賓委員所排定的議程公聽會的提供跟範圍就廣納的含闊了民進黨版的所有條文的內涵。"},{"start":28844.506,"end":28862.861,"text":"所以您的這個臨時提案就是虛偽不實之陳述啊您居然說之前的三場公聽會都是針對臺灣民眾黨黨團跟副官級委員的版本好像三場公聽會都是國民黨排的 不是好像三場公聽會都只是討論國民黨的版本 不是錯 錯 錯"},{"start":28865.703,"end":28879.914,"text":"三個大錯。」所以這個就是藐視國會嘛這個就是虛偽不實之陳述嘛所以我在這裡要講清楚就是過去的三場公聽會含括了包括民進黨的版本送案今天可以看議事文書上面的時間"},{"start":28881.275,"end":28907.984,"text":"都是落在我們公聽會之前就已經送案的所以在我們的中嘉賓交委安排的兩場公聽會裡頭討論的內容都含括了民進黨的持權行使法、民進黨的行為法、民進黨的立院組織法等等所以呢羅志強委員提這個提案不過是又想要終止今天的討論因為你想要說再召開三場公聽會外加一個專案報告才能夠進行民進黨版的"},{"start":28910.825,"end":28934.099,"text":"主條討論,再一次又試圖的想要用不同的議事程序來卡關民進黨的版本,來沒收民進黨版本被審查的權利,就再一次又是國民黨團復雜斑斑的想要拖延,不敢面對、不敢審查民進黨版的政治陽謀。"},{"start":28935.18,"end":28958.175,"text":"就如此而已啦所以羅委員您這個提案要不要回去再重寫一次因為完全都是虛偽不實之陳述喔然後呢未來如果還有機會這個會期末都還有時間召開任何國會改革的公聽會我們絕對非常支持就如同剛剛講的國會要不要擴建要不要簽件我們可以擴大的找"},{"start":28959.176,"end":28980.495,"text":"在游錫堃院長任內找了21位學者專家包括都市計畫領域包括建築領域包括景觀設計領域包括公民團體的代表包括法政學者的代表等等大家針對國會新時代的進步國會的建築應當是什麼好好來進行空間改革的公定會我舉雙手雙腳都贊成"},{"start":28982.657,"end":28993.112,"text":"所以,不要再用這樣的臨時提案想要來拖延民進黨條文的審議。這不是拖啦,這是拱啦,抱歉。好不好,謝謝。好,現在請那個羅志強委員,請。"},{"start":29003.882,"end":29026.413,"text":"這個柯總召一個說我聰明吳士耀一個說我笨那我也不知道我是聰明還是笨但我的聰明還是笨不重要啦其實我跟各位說總召不用擔心啦基本上提這一個是要提醒大家其實國民黨在排審我們的國會改革法案當中民進黨就一直說討論不夠嘛"},{"start":29028.254,"end":29041.889,"text":"那其實我們的吳宗憲召委就非常有風度啊既然討論不夠就排一場專案報告然後呢 排一場專案報告也覺得不夠啊排一場公聽會也覺得不夠啊所以吳宗憲委就直接就聯會兩個禮拜來審查討論"},{"start":29045.151,"end":29048.697,"text":"兩場公聽會是中嘉賓召委辦的,我可沒有去略中嘉賓召委之功"},{"start":29060.3,"end":29085.441,"text":"三場公聽會我沒說誰辦的啊我只說經過三場公聽會啊我說經過三場公聽會啊我在剛說明的時候好沒關係這一點齁這樣子啦剛宗嘉斌召委跟吳世耀委喂我從善如流欸世耀委員好從善如流我們待會做文字修正齁我們待會就把這個三場公聽會一場是吳宗憲召委辦的兩場是宗嘉斌召委辦的齁"},{"start":29086.562,"end":29089.005,"text":"三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件 。"},{"start":29106.345,"end":29120.399,"text":"關阿虎,我特別強調一場是吳宗憲辦,兩場宗嘉賓辦的。那希望如果加了關阿虎以後,我們的民進黨朋友們就能夠支持。可是我回頭還是要講一個真正的一個用意。其實到底很簡單嘛。"},{"start":29122.06,"end":29124.503,"text":"因此在很多的學者專家討論公聽會的時候其實都是以國民黨版的國會改革在討論嘛"},{"start":29138.536,"end":29138.696,"text":"案件,而民進黨團擬具"},{"start":29161.479,"end":29168.109,"text":"三）委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案件及法制委員會及立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件及立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 案件及立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":29177.663,"end":29196.697,"text":"所以今天就是想特別去效法民進黨當時建議吳宗憲召委,多開公聽會,多討論然後讓民進黨的版本可以更加的傾聽社會大眾的聲音,更加的完備那至於到底要在什麼程序之下進行,其實民進黨我覺得朋友也不用擔心,為什麼呢當然會延宕個兩個禮拜啦,這個會延宕啦"},{"start":29201.5,"end":29201.82,"text":"條文修正草案案。"},{"start":29230.01,"end":29235.533,"text":"在場的民進黨的委員能夠支持。謝謝。主席。各位同仁。這個我想現在這樣子的議事工坊這個大家目的是什麼其實都很清楚了。"},{"start":29260.049,"end":29285.303,"text":"在這邊講的我們在講的什麼滿口仁義道德怎麼都知道目的彼此的目的是什麼但是我想我們這個要通過的提案我想還是要講道理還是要講道理這個剛才一再爭執的並不是說公聽會是誰辦的不是而是公聽會是針對國民黨跟民眾黨版本辦的還是公聽會是針對國會改革全部議題辦的這個才是事實"},{"start":29291.834,"end":29314.75,"text":"這三場公聽會我想去把這個公聽會的紀錄都調出來這很簡單嘛這公聽會又不是秘密召開又不是沒有又不是不留文只能新傳不留文字的這個公聽會當時的議題其實都包含了民進黨今天版本的議題嘛包括這個附中的考察包括秘密的會議那個都是公聽會的主題啊所以事實上公聽會三場"},{"start":29316.54,"end":29333.988,"text":"論委員所要求的公聽會三場事實上是已經辦過了這當時並沒有針對哪一個黨的版本來辦公聽會不是當時是針對國會改革議題也就包括我們今天現在如果順利可以進入審查的這些議題都辦過三場公聽會了這是第一點第二點"},{"start":29335.559,"end":29356.836,"text":"這個提案這整個跟當時我們民進黨的訴求其實是同樣的一個問題就是當時我們一直要求說不要排禮拜一你如果排禮拜三就可以大家並案一起討論了但是我們吳宗憲、昭偉那時候就堅持一定要禮拜一目的其實也不是吳宗憲、昭偉壞心了也不是啦那黨團的壓力之下"},{"start":29358.135,"end":29384.495,"text":"復婚期的壓力之下就是不要讓民進黨的版本進入討論這個就是從頭到尾到今天這個臨時提案還是同樣的意思就是不要讓民進黨的版本進入實質討論那這樣子其實對國民黨我個人就覺得說在國會上面的互動上面這樣的方式是很不健康的因為你最後即使一起版本讓民進黨一起進入討論一起協商國民黨還是多數嘛"},{"start":29385.563,"end":29409.442,"text":"你協商是最後真的協商不出結論來院會表決國民黨還是多數阿你們跟你們的小藍民進黨加起來還是多數阿為什麼要在這樣子的討論過程技術上面去阻擋其他政黨的案子納入一併討論這個是我個人在這裡我個人最不能接受當然制度上面你們人多你們要怎麼都責任阿但是"},{"start":29413.702,"end":29419.344,"text":"國會的討論、國會的改革有必要這樣子用政黨的立場來讓一個案子連討論的機會都沒有嗎?這個是我要在這裡就針對再來大家提到說好像這個國民之前的版本辦三場公聽會辦了一場之後還讓民進黨再辦兩場,錯了"},{"start":29435.151,"end":29456.858,"text":"那一天其實那一天本來的議程下午就要碾壓過去了這個我們吳宗憲召委在場那最清楚但是天意如此發生了大地震我們的國民黨的總指揮傅坤祺必須坐直升機回去花蓮沒有辦法在場指揮所以趕快把他延後再延後才有機會讓民進黨再開兩場公聽會這個就是事實"},{"start":29461.874,"end":29477.318,"text":"那我在這裡還是希望說我們這個司法法制委員會尤其是針對國會改革這樣子的議題每一個政黨大家都對台灣社會負有責任我是希望說這個國民黨既然作為一個多數黨應該要有這種氣度讓所有少數黨的這些我們的提案都能夠一併進入協商一併進入討論以上"},{"start":29487.368,"end":29507.453,"text":"主席這邊因為有省委員要報告要發言我先請大家發言前看一下因為還是要把事實說清楚這個是4月3號輪值召委吳宗憲召委員他所辦的公聽會所有的公聽會所含設的送委員會審查法案都在這裡面"},{"start":29508.593,"end":29531.697,"text":"那這是4月10號本席所召開的公聽會4月11號本席所開的公聽會那這兩個公聽會題目的範圍跟他所附的會議資料的範圍那都在今天我們委員會審查的法案在內那其中那時候包括今天的議案的編號一之二"},{"start":29532.239,"end":29543.113,"text":"之三以及編號二之二之三編號三之二這些法案包括所謂的組織法、行為法跟議事規則當時的公聽會已經就這些三個法"},{"start":29548.16,"end":29565.396,"text":"的副委員會審查過副議席的內容進行討論。」所以呢,宮廷會的來的學者專家也充分的就我們這些送到委員會待審的法案,不只是立法院職員刑事法,還包括立法院組織法,包括立法院"},{"start":29565.996,"end":29587.097,"text":"委員行為法以及議事規則都已經開始進行公聽會。所以倫茲召委本席所辦的4月10日及4月11日的兩場公聽會已經就今天法案審查包括我們剛剛已經審訊的第一個討論事項關於立法院組織法當中關於秘密會議的部分"},{"start":29588.057,"end":29604.864,"text":"關於我們這個資訊安全的加強的部分都已經有討論了我想在這裡做一個說明那接下來我們請那個省委員玩了我們柯總召那個待會我還會再講先確認一下民進黨團的那個版本4月3號提的嘛對不對"},{"start":29606.223,"end":29606.543,"text":"條文修正草"},{"start":29629.568,"end":29631.609,"text":"我迅速釐清因為我覺得開公聽會本來就是算很重要的事情"},{"start":29645.015,"end":29662.274,"text":"但我也提到這個公聽會但是非常重要的一點是在於說因為目前有總共三場的公聽會這個3號、10號跟11號那它所針對的主題最主要其實就是在講國會調查跟藐視國會這一些相關的事情那很明顯的從新聞大家也可以知道"},{"start":29663.434,"end":29687.688,"text":"這個三黨在這邊的角力還有大家的意見其實非常多的所以這也是為什麼當時需要召開公聽會的原因但因為公聽會就已經就是在釐清這些事所以如果再一次的再去召開公聽會那就只不過是根據又是那一些專家學者一樣的事情又要再發表一次意見我舉個很簡單的例子比如說我們今天開個公聽會討論到底羅志祥委員要不要去桃園比如說這個樣子"},{"start":29688.609,"end":29689.029,"text":"條文修正草案"},{"start":29705.063,"end":29732.152,"text":"然後呢如果說今天真的要召開公聽會我們剛剛不是討論資安嗎其實如果資安大家很有疑慮的話那也應該要來討論嘛但是因為剛剛很明顯在討論的過程就可以發現其實目前因為今天這個民進黨不在齁兩黨對於資訊安全要保護完全沒有意見都認為這是重要的那只是到底細部到底要設置在資訊處下面呢還是要把它分開呢等等之類做討論所以因此這件事情我們沒有召開公聽會嘛"},{"start":29733.132,"end":29746.711,"text":"然後呢像我們今天像剛剛這個羅委員提到的譬如說這個行為法行為法裡面最重要的民進黨版本提的是泄密相關的規定啊有人放在組織法有人把它放在行為法啊像呢也有人把它放在議事規則但無論如何"},{"start":29749.014,"end":29770.227,"text":"我相信在座的應該沒有人會對於洩密這件事情有任何的意見應該大家都認為說沒有錯其實我們不應該洩漏秘密但是因為我們原本洩漏秘密規定的這個內容太簡略了因為洩漏秘密的方式太多了所以在這一次的版本裡面我們把各式各樣的行為太樣放進去然後就可以在主條的時候兩邊一起討論"},{"start":29772.708,"end":29797.95,"text":"所以這個時候如果針對這個要來開一個公聽會我告訴大家不管來幾個專家學者每一個都會跟你講說對 這個泄密的確是應該要規範那這樣開公聽會的意義就失去了但如果今天是要討論原本的調查權、調閱權的範圍、聽證的範圍這個各黨的歧義非常的大我們其實公聽會最主要討論的就是到底調查的範圍要有多大"},{"start":29798.57,"end":29826.12,"text":"不只是說今天是到底要針對官員還是要針對私人那麼簡單的問題而已還包含在藐視國會到底是要針對質詢還是要針對調查還是調閱也要放進去這個完全沒有共識所以這個時候我們之所以會提出這個版本我還是要再度的回應不要一直說2016年什麼民進黨已經提出了版本民進黨今天提出的版本最重要的就是因為國民黨提出的版本沒有邊界"},{"start":29826.9,"end":29854.282,"text":"他的邊界不確定所以就會變成什麼都變成調查調閱的範圍什麼都可以變成藐視國會所以我們只好提出一個版本去把它的範圍要怎麼限縮把它寫在45條之一而這個要怎麼限縮這件事情不就是這幾場公聽會一直在討論的嗎所以如果要重複再辦這樣的公聽會事實上是沒有什麼意義的事但如果譬如說我知道可能國民黨對於性騷這個部分是很有意見的"},{"start":29855.023,"end":29855.523,"text":"條文修正草案"},{"start":29884.397,"end":29885.318,"text":"司馬昭之心路人皆知"},{"start":29899.506,"end":29927.109,"text":"國民黨先畫寶在社間他agenda已經鋪陣好了整個政治佈局和兩岸之間的之間完全就是在520以前要如何來配合中國來造成我們憲政衝突來擾亂台灣這叫假宮廷會之名行莫說之實"},{"start":29928.51,"end":29928.81,"text":"一﹐一﹐一﹐一﹐一﹐一﹐一﹐"},{"start":29951.587,"end":29978.689,"text":"行政院長必須五個禮後兩個禮拜內要來立法院你又設計一個總統先來但總統很清楚只要核信他都來你又設計一個藐視國會罪然後來的時候要急問急答要順便答覆那有藐視國會之前要有刑責之後檢查沒這回事"},{"start":29980.256,"end":30007.343,"text":"國務黨吼,民眾就是討論很好。昨天有以前立法院的前輩,不是前輩,他有同意進來,沈穆雄。民眾國務黨有三傻。這樣的搞法,馬英九訪中,然後有,有要到太平島去,然後傅文綺、右港、烏文羅在發言地震,這個時候還要再去大陸。"},{"start":30009.022,"end":30024.258,"text":"這是數值嗎?還是精訊嗎?這大家都看不懂啦。這什麼想說馬英九、朱立倫以及潘石居會把國民黨毀掉。2126選舉選票一定會反撲的。"},{"start":30028.982,"end":30048.267,"text":"所以今天要在這裡告訴國民黨委員你這個是我講過昨天程序委員會開始擋案了過去馬來西亞時期擋了一半多次你也像程序委員浪花沈柏洋委員的兩人民關係條例一擋下來"},{"start":30052.051,"end":30079.977,"text":"然後呢委員會還給你沒收讓你清楚禮拜一就活生生演出來嘛你馬上給你散會就是今天這幾個法但是呢你今天演的是什麼有柔性政變我們都知道這是柔性沒收嘛只是變招而已啦就那大廠大家都敢看不見要公開開國內可以啊我剛才講的啦"},{"start":30081.365,"end":30100.704,"text":"出委員會以後,表決前還可以開工地會啊。你為什麼要先開工地會?就阻擋民進黨的國會改革的版本的進度嘛。到時候的議會只有你們的版本嘛,趕快就把表決過去嘛。各位,我們民進黨以前國會都說的時候,全部照民進黨程序來。"},{"start":30102.236,"end":30129.486,"text":"如果第一點你一直在講二零一六我們二零一六弄到兩年之後到二零一八的時候才通過幾個版本開了多好事公認會即便我們在都是執政的時候到一零零一會這樣一路蓋牌一路輾壓超越鄉的時候就是進行表決到A會的時候民進黨發言你麻煩沒收發言一路沒收嘛"},{"start":30131.058,"end":30140.624,"text":"2016民進黨國會多數的時候,這場案子叫什麼?叫不當黨產。經過委員會以後到院會,是讓國民黨每一根燈泣發音到飽。2017、2017的時候,蘇貞昌新生意條例也是在院會裡面發音陰停,最後才表決。這些都是有歷史的驗證。2018民進黨水域會也是如此。"},{"start":30161.474,"end":30167.4,"text":"所以立法院是一個論證的場所是一個是一個整個國家論證中心"},{"start":30170.79,"end":30194.286,"text":"想要讓國會都是暴力然後領壓過一切一定適得其反所以在這裡告訴國民黨委員我們知道你們已經agenda已經弄好了5月11日就要表決了最好民進黨版本都不要進來只有你們版本你們版本在國會裡面也不能討論沒說討論沒說發言沒說提案說明"},{"start":30199.369,"end":30216.856,"text":"今天假裝在這裡好像很民主的樣子,實質上你要實行柔性的沒收。司法責事心,大家都看得到啦。你沒有,還不夠聰明。這個叫做聰明反被聰明誤啦。昨天不是出來講話嗎?讓賴總統先來再來。造成這種宣稱衝突是幹什麼?然後這樣對國會有用嗎?這是我們要的國會嗎?"},{"start":30229.235,"end":30252.803,"text":"你如果將來馬上委員大要怎麼安排兩個職群總統是對立法院負責嗎是行政隊的立法院負責所以各位我一直在講包括我們的法治中心也要有法治學者、憲法學者你要有歷史之筆敢於勇於"},{"start":30254.802,"end":30279.374,"text":"寫下你們的評估報告。我這個話,這種立法院已經是可以說立法院完成論證的機會都沒有。這是國會的婉歌啊。國會根本就國會都是包圍就好啦,按表去就好啦。是這樣啊。紅毛常常不是很喜歡辯論嗎?他現在怎麼為什麼變成"},{"start":30281.955,"end":30305.114,"text":"民進黨要成為國民黨付費組織、要綏護、要衛武作倉。這個歷史會看到這裡,你敢吃是這樣轉吃會假,吞不下去。各位,這次只有知道衝突嘛,這有什麼好處?選民要站在你們那邊嗎?所以,難道說我沒有出改喆好不好?"},{"start":30306.616,"end":30324.993,"text":"好 那麼主席在這裡進行處理那麼因為根據立法院議事規則第二章委員提案第九條的規定出席委員提出臨時提案以及待解決事項為限應於當事會議上午實施前以書面提出"},{"start":30325.782,"end":30343.365,"text":"那因為本委員的慣例我們都是在因為這是全院的部分那我們都是在11點之前由委員三人聯署就可以提出那現在已過上午11時那因為剛剛委員羅委員的提案我想大家也充分的表達讓大家知道"},{"start":30343.846,"end":30367.219,"text":"那也讓主席在這裡有機會說明我們前三次的公聽會所含涉的範圍包括第一次由吳釗偉所主持的以及後面10月10號及4月11號由本席所召開的公聽會事實上已含涉了今天所要審查討論的四項這四個討論案的內容那是不是我就請大家我們繼續的"},{"start":30368.26,"end":30388.301,"text":"案,因為我們現在是5點01分,那已經多耗了40分鐘的時間,那不曉得剛剛柯總召是認為說我們今天的時間寶貴,我們繼續審查。當然,合理的議事的攻防討論我們都贊成,目的是什麼?就像有人說要提出三位動議是要拖延,讓這個委員會不能夠盡快的把"},{"start":30392.06,"end":30420.011,"text":"議案送交出去。那麼今天我們不急,我們五點半之前還有29分鐘時間,那如果大家覺得這個提案討論下去很有意義,那我們本期會再去處理言會動議。那現在我們繼續進行民進黨團擬具立法委員行為法第七條第一之一及第三十條條文的條文。那我們現在我徵詢我們委員...主席如果你這樣不尊重我的話,我告訴你你是由你發動讓會議開不下去喔!"},{"start":30422.132,"end":30435.616,"text":"榮委員,那意思是...你要不尊重我的發言,為什麼到那邊就結束了?我不能講話?不是,因為...登記程序發言啊,你登記會議詢問啊我講過了啊你如果要這樣子主持議事的話我告訴你為什麼由你決定,你們講完就要充分發言,我們不能再繼續講"},{"start":30443.544,"end":30449.007,"text":"我們會再繼續講來來來我的好那個現在因為齁這個提案其實在會議規範上齁會議規則上我們就是說因為不符上午11點嘛我已經說明了那如果各位還因為我們本來是在一個繼續討論啊討論的過程當中那我們剛剛呢我們也沒有用權益問題也沒有會議詢問也沒有程序問題主席就是就提案本身"},{"start":30467.778,"end":30481.976,"text":"當作是讓大家那我就提權益問題阿你為什麼可以阻擋我們阿那你現在如果要做權益問題我講一下權益問題好請發言我先提個案阿你大家要不要提要再講再慢慢講沒有關係現在隱藏開會時間到今天晚上12點他就提阿這是那個"},{"start":30485.88,"end":30490.426,"text":"這是程序問題,這個不是剛剛的臨時提案。你今天早上並沒有宣告說今天的臨時提案到11點。"},{"start":30505.203,"end":30524.311,"text":"三）委員高金素梅等23人擬具、「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案案案件 、三）委員高金素梅等23人擬具、「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件 、三）委員高金素梅等23人擬具、「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件 、三）委員高金素梅等23人擬具、「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件 、三）委員高金素梅等23人擬具、「立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正草案案件 、三）委員高金素梅等23人擬"},{"start":30534.648,"end":30539.151,"text":"案,因此,抱歉,若照主席這種做法的話,我們也只能提出商會動議,我們要告訴你今天實際上,抱歉,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,來,"},{"start":30560.123,"end":30563.025,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條"},{"start":30587.748,"end":30597.757,"text":"那個...好,三位董事長,針對本日會議,4月25日議程,建請依立法院議事規則第25條、57條規定,提議三位事為有當,敬請公決。現在我們開始處理。"},{"start":30613.291,"end":30620.39,"text":"沒關係阿民進黨反正今天你不處理所謂的處理公聽會的事情那就等下次再來處理阿"},{"start":30623.769,"end":30624.31,"text":"主席主席先讓我講話"},{"start":30646.953,"end":30659.838,"text":"主席,剛剛你已經宣布處理有人提出上會動議了嘛,如果說你沒有處理到這邊,那就可以讓他宣布。主席,你現在處理上會動議,你把提案的類別寫錯了。主席已經宣告了欸,怎麼會現在又變成這樣。"},{"start":30670.1,"end":30681.05,"text":"主席不處理臨時題要求三會主席跟賴主席都說要處理三會都議嘛那我們接下來是不是要清點人數那個我們先清點人數清點人數的過程齁我説明一下齁剛剛在場的動議"},{"start":30686.434,"end":30709.108,"text":"今天有一個臨時提案那因為我們剛剛的會議秩序已經進入到討論事項進入到討論事項已過臨時提案的時間但是由於羅委員的提案是涉及到討論事項當中是否大家要再斟酌有沒有要再召開空聽會那主席讓各位充分發言也不是程序問題也不是會議詢問也不是權益問題"},{"start":30711.229,"end":30740.175,"text":"那目前呢因為一致規則我們沒辦法處理臨時提案如果羅委員用別的方式提出我們就可以處理那現在有一個在場的三位動議最優先不經討論進行表決那現在呢我們採用舉手表決表決前先清點在場出席人數在場出席委員9人現在開始表決贊成者請舉手好贊成者5人請放下反對者請舉手"},{"start":30741.328,"end":30763.167,"text":"反對者4人,請放下,現在宣告表決結果。表決結果,在場出席委員9人,不含主席,贊成者5人,反對者4人,三位動議,贊成者多數通過。那主席在這裡本次會議進行到此啊,那討論事項,所列議案及位級處理部分,"},{"start":30764.067,"end":30791.627,"text":"軍令定期繼續審查。那麼本席在這裡呢要很遺憾的說我們今天的討論本來可以希望在時間將近嘛5點半之前有效率的進行討論。那麼我們現在這個散會動議。議長民進黨靠來動議會啦。羅志祥委員你剛剛提案就提錯了。臨時提案不是現在提的。沒關係沒關係話都你們講。對不對。你就意識規則搞不清楚你提案提錯了。現在在那邊更小東西有去。"},{"start":30792.808,"end":30793.468,"text":"立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"}]}},{"id":"15848","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15848","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373da93ee51fe98832508bd03a951da4504b3be8d109af184be442170649bb26614b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-25","start_time":"2024-04-25T08:30:14+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-04-25T12:51:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":15646,"委員發言時間":"08:30:14 - 12:51:00","影片長度":"04:20:46","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":47.02784375,"end":47.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":62.33346875,"end":63.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":74.44971875,"end":77.11596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":1056.8784687500001,"end":1057.7559687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":1059.5615937500002,"end":1060.2703437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1794.9572187500003,"end":1817.5697187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1820.9278437500002,"end":1822.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1826.07471875,"end":1830.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1832.2172187500003,"end":1834.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1835.77784375,"end":1837.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1837.6340937500001,"end":1843.3209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1844.9747187500002,"end":1846.6622187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1849.4972187500002,"end":1849.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":1850.9822187500001,"end":1857.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1867.7390937500002,"end":1868.4984687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1868.5659687500001,"end":1868.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1868.8528437500001,"end":1936.3865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":1937.4665937500001,"end":2071.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2071.9940937500005,"end":2093.7965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2094.38721875,"end":2096.4122187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2097.62721875,"end":2109.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2110.1484687500006,"end":2126.7872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2128.01909375,"end":2164.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2165.3465937500005,"end":2169.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2169.71721875,"end":2230.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2236.5084687500002,"end":2275.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2286.9140937500006,"end":2287.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2287.30221875,"end":2289.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":2289.6815937500005,"end":2290.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2296.7184687500003,"end":2297.2247187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2297.6972187500005,"end":2298.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2298.3047187500006,"end":2350.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2350.27971875,"end":2362.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2362.7165937500004,"end":2362.7334687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2362.7334687500006,"end":2375.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2364.2184687500003,"end":2365.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2369.21346875,"end":2369.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2375.10284375,"end":2378.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2375.15346875,"end":2375.4403437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2378.4440937500003,"end":2379.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2380.3847187500005,"end":2382.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2383.9453437500006,"end":2386.8984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2387.2528437500005,"end":2388.7040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2388.90659375,"end":2396.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2396.8209687500002,"end":2401.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2401.93409375,"end":2403.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2402.64284375,"end":2404.8028437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2404.3809687500006,"end":2406.6590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2406.2372187500005,"end":2428.8328437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2413.5778437500003,"end":2413.6959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":2413.81409375,"end":2413.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2427.76971875,"end":2427.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2427.97221875,"end":2428.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2428.02284375,"end":2428.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2428.15784375,"end":2428.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2428.8497187500006,"end":2438.1140937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2438.1140937500004,"end":2449.6397187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2450.55096875,"end":2450.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2450.9559687500005,"end":2468.3034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2464.30409375,"end":2465.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2465.28284375,"end":2465.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2468.7253437500003,"end":2479.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2472.0497187500005,"end":2472.7753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2472.8934687500005,"end":2473.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":2478.46221875,"end":2479.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2480.0653437500005,"end":2488.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2488.77284375,"end":2490.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2490.51096875,"end":2492.6034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2492.9747187500006,"end":2511.5709687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2511.8240937500004,"end":2514.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2515.70534375,"end":2519.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2519.82284375,"end":2520.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2521.25721875,"end":2526.7584687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2526.7584687500002,"end":2528.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2527.6697187500004,"end":2529.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2530.2009687500004,"end":2530.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2530.4540937500005,"end":2530.5047187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2530.65659375,"end":2535.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2535.7528437500005,"end":2540.6465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2541.5240937500002,"end":2542.0303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2543.05971875,"end":2549.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2550.3497187500006,"end":2553.9609687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2554.2647187500006,"end":2554.6190937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2555.29409375,"end":2555.8340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2556.34034375,"end":2556.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2557.35284375,"end":2559.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2559.34409375,"end":2563.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2563.93409375,"end":2566.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2567.79846875,"end":2568.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2568.32159375,"end":2568.5240937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2568.5240937500002,"end":2577.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2578.1765937500004,"end":2583.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2584.2684687500005,"end":2592.0309687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2592.0309687500003,"end":2599.3884687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2599.8103437500004,"end":2637.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2624.49846875,"end":2625.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2625.9665937500004,"end":2628.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2638.1334687500002,"end":2639.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2639.97284375,"end":2645.7947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2644.69784375,"end":2648.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2648.49471875,"end":2650.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2651.24534375,"end":2697.2634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2671.4109687500004,"end":2671.9003437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2696.4872187500005,"end":2703.1697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2701.9715937500005,"end":2704.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2703.20346875,"end":2706.6122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2706.9834687500006,"end":2719.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2720.2472187500007,"end":2720.6522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2720.87159375,"end":2720.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2720.93909375,"end":2721.1922187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2721.1922187500004,"end":2722.2722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2722.67721875,"end":2724.0440937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2724.65159375,"end":2726.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2725.7653437500003,"end":2730.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2730.9628437500005,"end":2732.5997187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2733.46034375,"end":2735.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2736.78471875,"end":2737.2403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2738.0840937500006,"end":2739.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2739.24846875,"end":2741.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2741.94846875,"end":2743.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":2742.5390937500006,"end":2743.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2744.31096875,"end":2745.0028437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2745.22221875,"end":2746.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2748.04034375,"end":2749.0865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2750.09909375,"end":2752.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2753.05221875,"end":2762.8397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2763.78471875,"end":2769.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2769.3534687500005,"end":2770.0284687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2770.6865937500006,"end":2773.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2774.63534375,"end":2775.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2775.95159375,"end":2778.1959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2779.27596875,"end":2783.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2783.83221875,"end":2786.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2786.9540937500005,"end":2787.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2787.2578437500006,"end":2789.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2789.8397187500004,"end":2790.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2790.2784687500007,"end":2794.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2794.5984687500004,"end":2804.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2804.58846875,"end":2816.9578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2817.4978437500004,"end":2821.9528437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2822.64471875,"end":2873.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2823.25221875,"end":2823.4040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2873.75909375,"end":2898.4472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2898.10971875,"end":2924.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2905.11284375,"end":2906.7497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2906.7497187500003,"end":2907.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2920.53659375,"end":2923.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2923.96221875,"end":2924.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2924.75534375,"end":2931.91034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2932.11284375,"end":2952.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2942.87909375,"end":2943.3347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2953.3584687500006,"end":2961.0534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2961.5597187500007,"end":2962.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2963.19659375,"end":2964.5128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2964.1415937500005,"end":2965.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2965.30596875,"end":2969.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2969.40659375,"end":2976.3590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2976.64596875,"end":2983.7334687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2984.3915937500005,"end":2986.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2986.9734687500004,"end":2994.3984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2993.9765937500006,"end":2997.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":2997.31784375,"end":3008.6072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3008.0672187500004,"end":3017.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3017.56784375,"end":3017.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3017.80409375,"end":3017.9559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3017.9559687500005,"end":3017.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3017.97284375,"end":3018.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3020.45346875,"end":3021.0440937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3021.3984687500006,"end":3032.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3031.54034375,"end":3032.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3032.8565937500007,"end":3036.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3037.7334687500006,"end":3047.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3045.10784375,"end":3045.7322187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3047.26784375,"end":3047.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3047.57159375,"end":3057.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3055.6209687500004,"end":3056.1778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3057.7472187500007,"end":3059.9578437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3059.33346875,"end":3061.1559687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3061.4765937500006,"end":3065.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3063.2653437500003,"end":3063.2822187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3065.3747187500003,"end":3065.9990937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":3065.84721875,"end":3066.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3066.37034375,"end":3066.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3066.38721875,"end":3066.4040937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3067.83846875,"end":3069.9815937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3072.52971875,"end":3074.8415937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3079.09409375,"end":3081.8278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3082.1484687500006,"end":3082.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":3082.8065937500005,"end":3084.0553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":3089.64096875,"end":3090.1640937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3090.2147187500004,"end":3139.1522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3140.40096875,"end":3146.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3146.7459687500004,"end":3149.66534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3149.6990937500004,"end":3156.7528437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3156.5840937500006,"end":3187.0097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3187.34721875,"end":3208.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3207.6647187500002,"end":3250.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3246.46034375,"end":3246.4940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3246.4940937500005,"end":3246.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3246.9665937500004,"end":3247.1690937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3251.4890937500004,"end":3252.5690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3254.30721875,"end":3272.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3272.80221875,"end":3286.1503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3276.4303437500002,"end":3276.9197187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3286.0153437500003,"end":3286.6228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3286.25159375,"end":3310.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3286.6228437500004,"end":3286.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3286.65659375,"end":3286.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3311.37846875,"end":3326.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3327.29159375,"end":3327.9665937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3327.9665937500004,"end":3328.0340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3328.0340937500005,"end":3328.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3328.72596875,"end":3346.2928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3337.70346875,"end":3338.5303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3344.99346875,"end":3346.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3346.9509687500004,"end":3352.6715937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3351.4228437500005,"end":3358.1222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3357.22784375,"end":3360.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3359.6747187500005,"end":3380.8359687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3376.33034375,"end":3376.5665937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3380.24534375,"end":3383.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3382.8947187500007,"end":3391.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3389.23971875,"end":3392.5303437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3392.5303437500006,"end":3412.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3393.15471875,"end":3393.7115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3405.7940937500007,"end":3405.9628437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3405.97971875,"end":3406.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3413.28659375,"end":3422.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3422.02784375,"end":3440.7928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3423.22596875,"end":3424.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3427.2253437500003,"end":3428.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3439.5440937500007,"end":3441.1472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3440.99534375,"end":3444.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3444.97784375,"end":3454.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3454.20846875,"end":3472.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3456.26721875,"end":3456.6553437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3472.63596875,"end":3472.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3472.65284375,"end":3472.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3472.6697187500004,"end":3472.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3473.0240937500002,"end":3479.5378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3479.99346875,"end":3482.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3483.0478437500005,"end":3485.9840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3485.9840937500003,"end":3486.0515937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3487.2497187500003,"end":3555.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3518.5528437500006,"end":3519.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3519.0253437500005,"end":3520.2234687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3555.52596875,"end":3557.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3557.5340937500005,"end":3559.1709687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3559.1709687500006,"end":3559.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3559.62659375,"end":3559.6603437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3559.6603437500007,"end":3559.7784687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3559.7784687500007,"end":3567.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3567.64221875,"end":3606.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3607.29846875,"end":3610.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3609.62721875,"end":3615.4490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3614.4872187500005,"end":3669.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3620.91659375,"end":3620.9334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3620.9334687500004,"end":3620.9503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3620.9503437500007,"end":3620.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3620.96721875,"end":3621.1697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3622.58721875,"end":3622.6209687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3622.65471875,"end":3623.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3646.0097187500005,"end":3646.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3669.41534375,"end":3682.1053437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3682.1053437500004,"end":3682.1222187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3682.1222187500007,"end":3682.2740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3682.72971875,"end":3682.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3682.74659375,"end":3689.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3689.2097187500003,"end":3710.8434687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3711.1472187500003,"end":3714.9103437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3714.9103437500007,"end":3714.9440937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3715.6190937500005,"end":3721.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3720.1415937500005,"end":3727.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3727.7184687500003,"end":3756.9122187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3757.3847187500005,"end":3758.4647187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3757.8065937500005,"end":3763.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3760.9284687500003,"end":3761.6203437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3762.9197187500004,"end":3779.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3778.8497187500006,"end":3781.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3780.2840937500005,"end":3784.3172187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3784.0809687500005,"end":3789.5147187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":3789.5147187500006,"end":3848.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3798.0028437500005,"end":3798.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3799.47096875,"end":3799.5553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3799.5553437500002,"end":3800.8547187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3802.06971875,"end":3803.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3803.6728437500005,"end":3803.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3814.65846875,"end":3817.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3825.1378437500007,"end":3826.2853437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3846.1134687500007,"end":3846.3834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3849.45471875,"end":3851.2940937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":3852.2390937500004,"end":3855.5128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3861.68909375,"end":3868.9284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3874.2272187500002,"end":3915.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3916.04346875,"end":3937.0865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3938.1328437500006,"end":3943.8703437500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3943.4315937500005,"end":3944.6803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3945.4903437500006,"end":3946.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3945.5915937500004,"end":3950.3165937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3950.68784375,"end":3951.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3951.17721875,"end":3954.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":3954.06284375,"end":4006.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3954.07971875,"end":3954.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4007.1853437500004,"end":4012.8722187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4013.36159375,"end":4016.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4016.44971875,"end":4020.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4021.0734687500008,"end":4024.1447187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4023.3515937500006,"end":4026.4734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4025.79846875,"end":4026.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4026.4734687500004,"end":4026.4903437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4026.4903437500006,"end":4029.8990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4030.4559687500005,"end":4043.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4043.68596875,"end":4065.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4059.2784687500007,"end":4060.4765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4061.0672187500004,"end":4063.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4063.76721875,"end":4077.7565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4078.9209687500006,"end":4079.6803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4081.2497187500003,"end":4086.6159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4086.8184687500006,"end":4097.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4097.41596875,"end":4100.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4100.520968750001,"end":4105.296593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4106.22471875,"end":4150.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4151.68596875,"end":4154.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4155.16221875,"end":4155.550343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4155.837218750001,"end":4158.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4158.267218749999,"end":4160.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4161.186593750001,"end":4163.565968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4163.68409375,"end":4163.937218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4163.937218749999,"end":4180.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4166.50221875,"end":4166.620343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4181.655968749999,"end":4186.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4186.3134687500005,"end":4187.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4188.96284375,"end":4189.1990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4189.80659375,"end":4207.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4206.512843750001,"end":4229.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4229.17596875,"end":4230.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4230.86346875,"end":4231.167218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4230.89721875,"end":4237.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4236.80346875,"end":4294.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4237.32659375,"end":4237.3603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4237.529093749999,"end":4237.5965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4238.4403437500005,"end":4238.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4253.999093750001,"end":4254.505343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4294.026593750001,"end":4311.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4295.96721875,"end":4296.405968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4312.200968749999,"end":4312.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4312.97721875,"end":4313.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4313.02784375,"end":4322.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4316.1834687499995,"end":4316.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4321.7353437500005,"end":4398.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4341.1415937500005,"end":4341.698468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4400.17034375,"end":4420.437218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4422.4959687499995,"end":4428.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4429.448468750001,"end":4429.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4429.9715937500005,"end":4436.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4436.333468750001,"end":4441.294718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4442.35784375,"end":4447.065968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4450.3397187499995,"end":4451.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4451.03159375,"end":4452.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4456.262843750001,"end":4462.962218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4462.962218750001,"end":4463.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4463.02971875,"end":4463.468468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4463.468468749999,"end":4463.519093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4465.00409375,"end":4472.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4472.5809687500005,"end":4472.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":4474.23471875,"end":4476.310343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4476.310343749999,"end":4494.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4493.100968750001,"end":4493.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4493.69159375,"end":4493.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4494.029093749999,"end":4548.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4538.22471875,"end":4539.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4549.42971875,"end":4566.034718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4566.034718749999,"end":4588.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4585.23846875,"end":4585.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4588.5965937500005,"end":4593.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4594.722218749999,"end":4607.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4604.30721875,"end":4605.083468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4606.905968749999,"end":4607.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4607.5809687500005,"end":4608.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4609.302218750001,"end":4610.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4610.7197187500005,"end":4621.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4619.798468749999,"end":4620.929093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4621.31721875,"end":4621.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4621.41846875,"end":4622.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4621.435343749999,"end":4625.940968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4624.08471875,"end":4624.5740937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4627.122218750001,"end":4632.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4628.759093750001,"end":4628.7928437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4628.7928437499995,"end":4628.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4628.97846875,"end":4629.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4629.029093749999,"end":4630.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4633.112843749999,"end":4634.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4634.02409375,"end":4636.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4636.89284375,"end":4637.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4636.97721875,"end":4637.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4637.63534375,"end":4637.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4638.833468750001,"end":4638.968468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4638.968468749999,"end":4646.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4646.44409375,"end":4646.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4646.78159375,"end":4647.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4647.70971875,"end":4647.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4648.33409375,"end":4650.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4651.405343750001,"end":4662.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4662.9647187499995,"end":4676.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4675.215968750001,"end":4677.747218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4677.25784375,"end":4677.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4678.08471875,"end":4678.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":4678.13534375,"end":4678.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4680.48096875,"end":4686.38721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4701.57471875,"end":4707.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4707.90284375,"end":4709.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":4713.15096875,"end":4713.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4714.214093750001,"end":4832.811593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":4832.811593750001,"end":4840.439093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4841.95784375,"end":4861.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4862.0897187499995,"end":4868.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4864.99221875,"end":4865.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4865.937218749999,"end":4866.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4867.92846875,"end":4969.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4969.9715937500005,"end":4995.638468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4997.25846875,"end":4999.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":4999.94159375,"end":5055.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":5044.47471875,"end":5045.807843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5045.807843750001,"end":5045.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5050.80284375,"end":5053.857218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5054.31284375,"end":5062.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5062.345343749999,"end":5117.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5068.70721875,"end":5068.8084687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5068.8084687499995,"end":5069.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5069.196593750001,"end":5069.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5069.669093750001,"end":5069.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5069.97284375,"end":5070.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5070.47909375,"end":5070.7997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5070.7997187500005,"end":5071.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5090.40846875,"end":5091.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5092.8553437499995,"end":5094.036593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5115.265343749999,"end":5115.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5115.43409375,"end":5115.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5117.96534375,"end":5118.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5118.032843749999,"end":5118.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5118.67409375,"end":5123.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5123.21346875,"end":5135.481593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5135.73471875,"end":5155.495343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5155.765343749999,"end":5158.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5160.81096875,"end":5167.814093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5167.814093749999,"end":5178.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":5179.204718749999,"end":5182.529093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5185.00971875,"end":5279.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5219.384093750001,"end":5219.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":5219.434718750001,"end":5220.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5280.20159375,"end":5316.0272187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5315.6728437500005,"end":5414.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5415.420968750001,"end":5451.921593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5419.47096875,"end":5419.622843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5419.622843749999,"end":5419.673468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5419.673468749999,"end":5419.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5452.259093750001,"end":5469.032843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5469.032843749999,"end":5508.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":5509.262843750001,"end":5509.6678437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":5510.325968749999,"end":5517.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5525.6990937499995,"end":5526.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5526.779093749999,"end":5528.044718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5528.5340937500005,"end":5529.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5533.259093750001,"end":5534.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5534.4403437500005,"end":5534.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5535.233468750001,"end":5546.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5546.657843749999,"end":5548.109093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5548.51409375,"end":5565.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5565.591593749999,"end":5567.937218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5568.29159375,"end":5579.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5579.20971875,"end":5606.665343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5606.378468750001,"end":5606.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5606.41221875,"end":5606.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5607.44159375,"end":5607.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5608.538468750001,"end":5611.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5612.82471875,"end":5613.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5613.5165937500005,"end":5626.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5627.202218750001,"end":5649.544718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5644.9715937500005,"end":5646.8447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5646.8447187500005,"end":5646.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5646.91221875,"end":5646.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5649.983468750001,"end":5653.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5653.628468750001,"end":5660.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5660.64846875,"end":5664.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5664.34409375,"end":5666.099093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5666.099093750001,"end":5667.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5667.921593749999,"end":5670.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5670.604718750001,"end":5674.0809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5674.46909375,"end":5691.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5689.31909375,"end":5689.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5691.58034375,"end":5708.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":5706.00846875,"end":5707.729718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5708.708468750001,"end":5734.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5713.7372187500005,"end":5715.323468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5734.08846875,"end":5741.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5739.72471875,"end":5739.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5740.821593750001,"end":5779.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5779.61721875,"end":5781.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5783.21159375,"end":5806.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5807.190968750001,"end":5813.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5813.9072187500005,"end":5838.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5839.439093750001,"end":5844.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5844.72096875,"end":5851.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5851.50471875,"end":5853.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5853.34409375,"end":5869.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5859.94221875,"end":5859.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5859.95909375,"end":5860.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5870.185343749999,"end":5874.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5874.8934687500005,"end":5891.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5892.07221875,"end":5894.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5895.19409375,"end":5922.126593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5920.354718750001,"end":5946.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5923.18971875,"end":5926.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5926.75034375,"end":5927.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5936.4872187500005,"end":5936.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":5936.50409375,"end":5936.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":5936.97659375,"end":5938.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5944.36784375,"end":5944.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5944.84034375,"end":5953.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5951.4384687500005,"end":5983.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5980.767218750001,"end":5982.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5983.028468750001,"end":5983.0790937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5983.0790937500005,"end":5983.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5983.78784375,"end":5983.8553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5983.8553437499995,"end":5983.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5983.9228437500005,"end":5984.007218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5984.007218750001,"end":5984.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5984.02409375,"end":5984.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":5984.88471875,"end":5992.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5991.044093750001,"end":5991.229718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":5993.11971875,"end":6004.544093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6003.44721875,"end":6007.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6007.395968750001,"end":6033.029093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6070.069718750001,"end":6070.120343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6070.120343750001,"end":6070.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6070.18784375,"end":6070.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6070.32284375,"end":6070.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":6070.3397187499995,"end":6070.6434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6070.6434687500005,"end":6070.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6076.1278437500005,"end":6077.376593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6077.984093749999,"end":6079.671593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6118.298468750001,"end":6118.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6121.065968750001,"end":6121.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6124.2215937500005,"end":6126.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6126.16221875,"end":6142.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6126.21284375,"end":6126.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6142.56471875,"end":6142.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6142.83471875,"end":6143.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6143.560343749999,"end":6178.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6144.38721875,"end":6146.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6160.99221875,"end":6163.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6175.724093750001,"end":6176.483468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6176.83784375,"end":6177.884093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6178.03596875,"end":6181.579718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6179.45346875,"end":6186.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6184.954718750001,"end":6185.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6185.03909375,"end":6186.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6186.30471875,"end":6186.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6186.642218750001,"end":6197.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6189.139718750001,"end":6189.3759687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":6191.82284375,"end":6192.3290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6192.3290937500005,"end":6192.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6194.50596875,"end":6197.661593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6198.75846875,"end":6201.8465937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6202.015343749999,"end":6202.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":6202.15034375,"end":6204.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6210.419093750001,"end":6213.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6219.312218749999,"end":6220.763468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6221.50596875,"end":6258.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6259.27221875,"end":6259.356593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6259.356593750001,"end":6276.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6277.46346875,"end":6285.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6282.44159375,"end":6323.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6323.97096875,"end":6338.669093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6337.55534375,"end":6351.510968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6339.20909375,"end":6342.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6345.38534375,"end":6346.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6347.73096875,"end":6348.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6350.58284375,"end":6351.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6352.911593750001,"end":6403.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6403.97534375,"end":6423.465968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6423.63471875,"end":6425.5584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6425.811593750001,"end":6457.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6457.57034375,"end":6483.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6484.300343750001,"end":6501.546593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6485.5322187500005,"end":6486.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6501.66471875,"end":6513.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6513.05534375,"end":6514.911593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6514.911593750001,"end":6514.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6515.468468749999,"end":6533.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6532.815968750001,"end":6538.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6535.00971875,"end":6535.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6537.405968749999,"end":6556.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6554.34846875,"end":6556.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6556.84596875,"end":6559.157843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6556.913468750001,"end":6557.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6558.14534375,"end":6571.577843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6560.08596875,"end":6560.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6571.493468750001,"end":6609.782843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6610.3397187499995,"end":6633.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6634.909718750001,"end":6657.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6657.032843750001,"end":6686.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":6657.977843750001,"end":6658.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6686.07471875,"end":6711.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6686.091593749999,"end":6686.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6710.64471875,"end":6720.499718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6712.8553437499995,"end":6713.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6718.71096875,"end":6721.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6721.529093749999,"end":6742.015343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6742.57221875,"end":6754.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6754.6884687500005,"end":6821.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6821.96909375,"end":6857.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6857.96346875,"end":6872.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6872.40846875,"end":6872.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6873.184718750001,"end":6873.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6873.94409375,"end":6873.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6875.07471875,"end":6876.6103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6876.9647187499995,"end":6888.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6888.57471875,"end":6894.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6895.05471875,"end":6901.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6900.77534375,"end":6925.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6926.982218749999,"end":6934.592843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6933.310343749999,"end":6946.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6945.780968750001,"end":6952.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6952.9697187500005,"end":6953.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6953.340968750001,"end":6964.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6964.967843750001,"end":6975.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":6975.497843749999,"end":6990.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6991.529093749999,"end":6993.790343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":6995.899718750001,"end":7008.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7008.35346875,"end":7019.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7023.94596875,"end":7028.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7029.19409375,"end":7039.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7029.278468750001,"end":7029.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7029.970343750001,"end":7031.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7031.74221875,"end":7032.552218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7038.66096875,"end":7050.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7052.295968750001,"end":7059.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7059.2147187499995,"end":7075.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7075.17846875,"end":7076.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":7076.427218750001,"end":7087.0584687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7084.29096875,"end":7084.965968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7084.965968750001,"end":7086.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7088.239718750001,"end":7100.423468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7108.23659375,"end":7110.514718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7111.05471875,"end":7111.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7111.08846875,"end":7111.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7111.4090937500005,"end":7112.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7116.77534375,"end":7161.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7161.7303437499995,"end":7161.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7161.94971875,"end":7163.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7164.29534375,"end":7176.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7177.120343750001,"end":7201.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7201.13346875,"end":7201.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7201.200968749999,"end":7201.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7201.960343750001,"end":7261.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7261.259093750001,"end":7261.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7261.27596875,"end":7286.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7267.874093750001,"end":7268.194718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7286.655968750001,"end":7303.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7302.079718750001,"end":7304.239718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7304.239718750001,"end":7336.3865937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7336.589093750001,"end":7379.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7379.940968750001,"end":7523.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7432.860968750001,"end":7434.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7523.96909375,"end":7579.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7579.79159375,"end":7668.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7624.307843750001,"end":7624.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7669.61721875,"end":7699.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7673.59971875,"end":7674.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7683.6572187500005,"end":7683.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7700.4647187499995,"end":7709.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7710.218468750001,"end":7772.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7772.74034375,"end":7830.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7788.82221875,"end":7790.054093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7790.526593750001,"end":7791.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7830.14909375,"end":7832.106593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":7831.482218749999,"end":7832.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7833.67596875,"end":7833.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7833.878468750001,"end":7835.937218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7837.540343750001,"end":7840.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7848.6103437500005,"end":7850.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7850.702843750001,"end":7851.934718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7855.27596875,"end":7857.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7855.7147187499995,"end":7856.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7859.3934687500005,"end":7859.477843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":7859.477843750001,"end":7860.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7860.169718749999,"end":7860.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7865.31659375,"end":7924.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7888.165343750001,"end":7888.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7888.28346875,"end":7888.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7888.97534375,"end":7889.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7925.03721875,"end":7932.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7932.5634687500005,"end":7958.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":7958.02784375,"end":7960.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7958.061593750001,"end":7958.196593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7958.2303437499995,"end":7958.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7961.014718750001,"end":7996.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7995.794093750001,"end":7996.215968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":7997.78534375,"end":8006.8134687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8007.80909375,"end":8053.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8053.84409375,"end":8070.128468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8071.866593750001,"end":8119.622843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8119.622843750001,"end":8127.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8124.702218750001,"end":8125.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8127.655343750001,"end":8127.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8127.67221875,"end":8130.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8130.25409375,"end":8164.071593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8164.493468750001,"end":8223.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8223.35346875,"end":8236.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8233.05659375,"end":8233.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8233.07346875,"end":8233.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8236.54971875,"end":8238.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8239.215968750003,"end":8242.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8242.50659375,"end":8242.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8242.97909375,"end":8252.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8243.114093750002,"end":8243.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8243.28284375,"end":8243.637218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8252.73284375,"end":8315.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8316.11534375,"end":8347.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8348.160968750002,"end":8371.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8371.347218750001,"end":8376.578468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8376.64596875,"end":8377.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8377.48971875,"end":8424.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8424.60471875,"end":8436.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8437.598468750002,"end":8437.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8437.81784375,"end":8452.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8452.80284375,"end":8455.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8455.620968750001,"end":8456.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8456.38034375,"end":8498.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":8460.98721875,"end":8461.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8499.25971875,"end":8503.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8503.63034375,"end":8524.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8519.543468750002,"end":8520.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8524.69034375,"end":8539.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8539.995968750001,"end":8544.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8544.332843750002,"end":8548.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8548.72034375,"end":8551.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8552.85471875,"end":8560.262843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8560.785968750002,"end":8574.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8575.230968750002,"end":8578.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8579.53409375,"end":8580.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8581.17096875,"end":8583.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8583.80346875,"end":8601.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8602.180343750002,"end":8610.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8610.415343750003,"end":8610.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8611.22534375,"end":8612.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8612.035343750002,"end":8618.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8619.91596875,"end":8620.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8622.04221875,"end":8638.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8638.37721875,"end":8643.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8644.48596875,"end":8648.738468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8649.61596875,"end":8651.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8652.04596875,"end":8654.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8654.594093750002,"end":8662.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8662.59284375,"end":8665.461593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8666.96346875,"end":8667.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8668.43159375,"end":8684.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8698.50284375,"end":8698.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8698.53659375,"end":8699.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8699.464718750001,"end":8699.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":8699.734718750002,"end":8699.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8699.75159375,"end":8700.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8702.789093750001,"end":8703.362843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8703.41346875,"end":8705.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":8705.77596875,"end":8707.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8710.56846875,"end":8712.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8713.403468750003,"end":8810.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8810.97471875,"end":8867.387843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":8868.02909375,"end":8933.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8869.71659375,"end":8869.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8869.969718750002,"end":8870.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8878.660343750002,"end":8879.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8884.785968750002,"end":8885.140343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8897.442218750002,"end":8897.94846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8899.61909375,"end":8900.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8921.08409375,"end":8921.489093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8926.88909375,"end":8927.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8933.031593750002,"end":8961.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8962.309718750003,"end":8964.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":8964.790343750003,"end":8990.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8991.13221875,"end":8999.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":8999.65409375,"end":9007.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":9003.92346875,"end":9004.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9008.378468750001,"end":9009.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9010.285343750002,"end":9020.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":9021.203468750002,"end":9021.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9021.22034375,"end":9145.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9145.977218750002,"end":9156.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9157.06409375,"end":9210.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9159.004718750002,"end":9159.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9210.794093750003,"end":9233.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9233.558468750001,"end":9253.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9254.68596875,"end":9292.199093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9278.800343750001,"end":9279.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9292.60409375,"end":9302.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9302.374718750001,"end":9318.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9318.43971875,"end":9319.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9318.49034375,"end":9330.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9330.03284375,"end":9438.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9334.47096875,"end":9334.808468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9438.42096875,"end":9447.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9448.10721875,"end":9474.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9474.921593750001,"end":9475.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9475.00596875,"end":9475.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9475.02284375,"end":9476.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9478.07721875,"end":9478.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9483.64596875,"end":9486.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9484.72596875,"end":9486.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9486.109718750002,"end":9487.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9487.30784375,"end":9487.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9487.34159375,"end":9487.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9487.425968750002,"end":9487.493468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9487.493468750003,"end":9487.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9489.34971875,"end":9491.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9517.379093750002,"end":9518.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9518.52659375,"end":9518.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9518.695343750001,"end":9518.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9518.89784375,"end":9518.914718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":9518.965343750002,"end":9519.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9560.039093750001,"end":9562.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9562.03034375,"end":9570.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9566.65409375,"end":9568.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9570.46784375,"end":9571.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9571.699718750002,"end":9571.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9571.969718750002,"end":9573.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9591.105968750002,"end":9592.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9592.590968750003,"end":9593.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9593.215343750002,"end":9593.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":9597.04596875,"end":9598.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9598.24409375,"end":9600.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9605.83784375,"end":9607.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9607.96409375,"end":9608.200343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9608.402843750002,"end":9609.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9614.12346875,"end":9614.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9636.53346875,"end":9636.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9636.550343750001,"end":9636.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":9636.567218750002,"end":9636.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9636.972218750001,"end":9637.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9637.02284375,"end":9637.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":9637.32659375,"end":9637.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9651.34971875,"end":9651.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9651.45096875,"end":9651.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9651.585968750001,"end":9652.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":9653.492843750002,"end":9654.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9659.98971875,"end":9660.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9673.050968750002,"end":9674.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9674.519093750001,"end":9675.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9813.585968750001,"end":9816.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9826.86659375,"end":9841.699718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":9837.801593750002,"end":9837.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9838.34159375,"end":9838.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9838.35846875,"end":9838.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9838.375343750002,"end":9840.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9840.02909375,"end":9841.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":9841.024718750003,"end":9841.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9841.800968750002,"end":9845.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9841.969718750002,"end":9843.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9845.56409375,"end":9846.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9846.05346875,"end":9850.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":9846.070343750001,"end":9846.087218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9850.57596875,"end":9853.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9854.625968750002,"end":9856.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9856.54971875,"end":9857.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9858.254093750002,"end":9858.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9859.789718750002,"end":9862.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9864.379718750002,"end":9868.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9869.56034375,"end":9872.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9873.660968750002,"end":9874.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9875.027843750002,"end":9876.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9876.546593750001,"end":9878.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9878.31846875,"end":9879.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9880.02284375,"end":9882.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9883.43159375,"end":9886.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9884.54534375,"end":9887.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9888.07221875,"end":9891.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9892.67909375,"end":9897.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9893.15159375,"end":9894.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9897.285968750002,"end":9897.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9897.99471875,"end":9901.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9899.800343750001,"end":9900.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9901.84221875,"end":9907.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9908.74409375,"end":9916.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9916.793468750002,"end":9921.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9923.340968750003,"end":9925.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9926.226593750001,"end":9950.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9951.37034375,"end":9954.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9955.42034375,"end":9959.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9961.343468750001,"end":9976.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9977.13846875,"end":9978.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9979.433468750001,"end":9984.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9985.609718750002,"end":9990.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9989.22096875,"end":9989.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9990.992843750002,"end":9994.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9993.27096875,"end":9998.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":9995.363468750002,"end":9998.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":9998.384093750003,"end":9998.417843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9998.99159375,"end":10007.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10005.758468750002,"end":10007.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10007.95221875,"end":10016.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10017.28409375,"end":10021.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10018.515968750002,"end":10021.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10022.54909375,"end":10030.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10030.83471875,"end":10031.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10032.167843750001,"end":10032.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10033.51784375,"end":10034.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10034.90159375,"end":10035.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10035.47534375,"end":10044.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10044.80721875,"end":10055.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10056.14721875,"end":10060.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10060.956593750001,"end":10061.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10061.800343750001,"end":10067.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10068.48284375,"end":10077.409718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10078.371593750002,"end":10091.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10089.711593750002,"end":10092.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10093.27221875,"end":10131.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10132.60784375,"end":10141.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10132.92846875,"end":10135.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10141.382843750001,"end":10145.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10141.821593750003,"end":10143.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10145.922218750002,"end":10166.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10146.32721875,"end":10148.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10166.492843750002,"end":10172.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10169.53034375,"end":10201.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10201.930343750002,"end":10207.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10207.769093750001,"end":10232.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10230.90471875,"end":10240.590968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10238.987843750001,"end":10253.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10253.95596875,"end":10262.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10262.579093750002,"end":10268.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10268.77221875,"end":10274.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10275.57284375,"end":10328.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10328.66159375,"end":10362.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10363.99784375,"end":10364.352218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10365.044093750003,"end":10365.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":10365.972218750001,"end":10383.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10371.33846875,"end":10371.743468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10371.86159375,"end":10372.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10377.784718750001,"end":10378.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10381.007843750001,"end":10381.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10384.011593750001,"end":10466.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10464.79221875,"end":10466.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10466.597843750002,"end":10501.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10470.10784375,"end":10470.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10470.47909375,"end":10470.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10474.731593750003,"end":10474.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10474.96784375,"end":10475.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10475.035343750002,"end":10475.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10479.33846875,"end":10479.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":10481.110343750002,"end":10481.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10481.54909375,"end":10481.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10501.59659375,"end":10510.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10510.23659375,"end":10520.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10511.97471875,"end":10512.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10515.535343750002,"end":10515.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10520.95221875,"end":10521.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10521.00284375,"end":10521.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10521.222218750001,"end":10522.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":10521.74534375,"end":10523.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10523.297843750002,"end":10545.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10544.340968750003,"end":10544.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10546.602218750002,"end":10552.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10557.18284375,"end":10558.195343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10558.769093750001,"end":10559.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10563.899093750002,"end":10606.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10606.440968750001,"end":10607.301593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10606.49159375,"end":10608.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10608.90471875,"end":10610.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10610.575343750003,"end":10617.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10616.312843750002,"end":10618.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10618.320968750002,"end":10620.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10619.50221875,"end":10620.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10621.476593750001,"end":10623.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10621.51034375,"end":10623.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10623.92346875,"end":10629.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10630.21784375,"end":10630.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10632.563468750002,"end":10634.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10634.605343750001,"end":10634.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10634.976593750001,"end":10635.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10636.140968750002,"end":10646.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10647.09284375,"end":10654.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10652.72909375,"end":10655.226593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10655.226593750001,"end":10655.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10655.597843750002,"end":10659.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10658.58471875,"end":10659.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10660.69409375,"end":10665.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10666.06034375,"end":10670.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10666.245968750001,"end":10667.899718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10671.34221875,"end":10676.337218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10676.792843750001,"end":10680.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10681.872218750003,"end":10689.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10690.07346875,"end":10695.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10695.65909375,"end":10702.949093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10703.910968750002,"end":10705.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10706.35784375,"end":10710.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10710.036593750003,"end":10711.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10711.42034375,"end":10721.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10718.84534375,"end":10719.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10721.511593750001,"end":10723.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10723.992218750001,"end":10725.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":10725.274718750003,"end":10725.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10725.51096875,"end":10736.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10736.63159375,"end":10744.714718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10739.46659375,"end":10739.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10745.052218750003,"end":10763.074718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10745.929718750001,"end":10746.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10762.99034375,"end":10769.571593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10769.571593750003,"end":10780.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10770.60096875,"end":10770.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10780.18596875,"end":10782.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10780.202843750001,"end":10781.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10783.88159375,"end":10789.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10789.973468750002,"end":10791.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10791.57659375,"end":10799.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10792.825343750003,"end":10793.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10799.22096875,"end":10810.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10802.933468750001,"end":10804.114718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10807.03409375,"end":10808.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10809.953468750002,"end":10817.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10812.67034375,"end":10813.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10813.93596875,"end":10818.812843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10819.082843750002,"end":10821.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10822.57596875,"end":10823.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10822.829093750002,"end":10826.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10827.351593750001,"end":10831.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10830.43971875,"end":10833.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10832.110343750002,"end":10832.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10833.93284375,"end":10834.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10834.540343750003,"end":10837.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10837.81409375,"end":10841.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10839.130343750003,"end":10840.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10842.03284375,"end":10843.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10842.657218750002,"end":10845.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10844.00721875,"end":10845.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10845.458468750003,"end":10846.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10846.52159375,"end":10855.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10850.48721875,"end":10851.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10854.85784375,"end":10856.832218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10856.477843750003,"end":10870.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10867.851593750001,"end":10867.919093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":10867.98659375,"end":10868.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10871.243468750003,"end":10872.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10873.15034375,"end":10887.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10889.65409375,"end":10893.704093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10891.206593750001,"end":10892.117843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10893.99096875,"end":10894.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10894.379093750002,"end":10895.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10895.83034375,"end":10896.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10895.864093750002,"end":10897.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10897.754093750002,"end":10898.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10898.395343750002,"end":10899.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10903.778468750003,"end":10905.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10905.68534375,"end":10907.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10907.44034375,"end":10909.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10909.81971875,"end":10910.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10910.629718750002,"end":10911.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10911.405968750001,"end":10913.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10915.169093750003,"end":10933.410968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10925.867843750002,"end":10926.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10932.31409375,"end":10943.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10944.61596875,"end":10978.450343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10968.71346875,"end":10969.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10978.872218750003,"end":10988.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10989.300968750002,"end":10990.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10990.195343750001,"end":10990.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":10990.667843750001,"end":11004.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11003.695343750001,"end":11009.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11009.58471875,"end":11014.12409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11013.516593750002,"end":11017.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11014.664093750001,"end":11015.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11017.296593750001,"end":11022.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11017.718468750001,"end":11019.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11021.312843750002,"end":11024.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11024.40096875,"end":11025.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11025.04221875,"end":11027.286593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11027.759093750003,"end":11039.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11039.622218750003,"end":11046.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11046.625343750002,"end":11048.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11049.375968750002,"end":11050.894718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11052.46409375,"end":11053.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11053.020968750003,"end":11060.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11060.41221875,"end":11066.622218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11062.20096875,"end":11062.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11066.622218750003,"end":11067.415343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11067.73596875,"end":11068.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11069.01846875,"end":11069.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11069.085968750001,"end":11070.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11069.929718750001,"end":11082.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11073.777218750001,"end":11074.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11075.39721875,"end":11075.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11075.81909375,"end":11076.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11081.65784375,"end":11082.332843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11083.14284375,"end":11087.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11087.074718750002,"end":11089.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11090.145968750003,"end":11095.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11095.57971875,"end":11098.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":11098.212218750003,"end":11102.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11101.82346875,"end":11114.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11114.378468750001,"end":11117.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11120.84159375,"end":11123.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11126.781593750002,"end":11128.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11130.831593750001,"end":11131.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11131.540343750003,"end":11137.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11137.969718750002,"end":11141.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11143.605968750002,"end":11145.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11145.765968750002,"end":11185.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":11146.305968750003,"end":11148.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11186.29971875,"end":11186.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11187.24471875,"end":11199.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11194.433468750001,"end":11194.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11195.31096875,"end":11196.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11199.833468750003,"end":11200.086593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11199.85034375,"end":11203.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11201.622218750003,"end":11204.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11204.085968750001,"end":11204.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11204.71034375,"end":11205.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11207.24159375,"end":11214.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11220.758468750002,"end":11224.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11223.82971875,"end":11224.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11224.96034375,"end":11228.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11226.867218750001,"end":11227.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11229.16221875,"end":11229.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11229.17909375,"end":11230.984718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11231.37284375,"end":11231.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11232.85784375,"end":11274.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11270.87721875,"end":11271.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11275.24784375,"end":11275.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11276.47971875,"end":11284.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11285.777843750002,"end":11290.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11290.77284375,"end":11414.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11379.535343750002,"end":11380.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11414.753468750001,"end":11459.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11452.18221875,"end":11452.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11461.328468750002,"end":11495.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11496.37784375,"end":11544.184718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11506.367843750002,"end":11508.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11509.320968750002,"end":11510.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11519.14221875,"end":11519.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11519.969093750002,"end":11520.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11544.690968750001,"end":11554.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11554.95096875,"end":11569.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11570.77971875,"end":11576.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11577.816593750002,"end":11578.390343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11578.812218750001,"end":11578.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11578.89659375,"end":11584.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11578.94721875,"end":11580.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11585.29221875,"end":11597.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11598.977843750003,"end":11601.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11602.11659375,"end":11650.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11651.50971875,"end":11707.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11708.192843750003,"end":11779.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11733.690968750001,"end":11733.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":11733.707843750002,"end":11733.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11733.977843750003,"end":11736.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11738.83784375,"end":11739.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11759.070968750002,"end":11760.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":11760.03284375,"end":11760.488468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11760.488468750002,"end":11760.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11771.38971875,"end":11772.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11772.01409375,"end":11772.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11776.18221875,"end":11776.266593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11776.266593750002,"end":11776.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11776.519718750002,"end":11776.77284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11780.45159375,"end":11855.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":11819.297843750002,"end":11820.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11831.515343750001,"end":11831.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11831.97096875,"end":11832.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11839.04159375,"end":11839.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11839.109093750001,"end":11839.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11839.530968750001,"end":11839.547843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11846.36534375,"end":11846.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":11846.38221875,"end":11847.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11847.20909375,"end":11847.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11847.765968750002,"end":11849.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11854.07721875,"end":11854.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11854.12784375,"end":11854.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11854.81971875,"end":11854.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11855.79846875,"end":11862.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11862.07596875,"end":11862.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11864.387843750003,"end":11874.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11875.12034375,"end":11923.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11923.56846875,"end":11946.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11946.34971875,"end":11950.804718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11951.074718750002,"end":11956.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11957.824718750002,"end":11958.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11959.242218750001,"end":11963.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":11964.76034375,"end":11983.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11965.45221875,"end":11965.536593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11965.536593750003,"end":11965.570343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11965.570343750001,"end":11965.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11965.637843750003,"end":11965.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11965.671593750001,"end":11965.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11983.035968750002,"end":11985.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11985.415343750003,"end":11986.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11987.06909375,"end":11991.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11991.254093750002,"end":11991.574718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11991.574718750002,"end":11991.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":11991.64221875,"end":11991.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":11991.692843750003,"end":12001.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12005.90159375,"end":12011.183468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12009.884093750003,"end":12009.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12009.90096875,"end":12010.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12010.00221875,"end":12010.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12014.575343750003,"end":12033.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12034.09971875,"end":12034.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12034.89284375,"end":12035.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12035.871593750002,"end":12039.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12039.449093750001,"end":12042.199718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12042.992843750002,"end":12091.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12091.862843750001,"end":12117.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12115.386593750001,"end":12123.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12123.317843750003,"end":12196.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12123.48659375,"end":12123.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12181.38471875,"end":12181.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12184.30409375,"end":12185.215343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12185.55284375,"end":12185.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12195.812843750002,"end":12270.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12198.22596875,"end":12199.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12200.234093750001,"end":12200.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12201.550343750001,"end":12203.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12207.60846875,"end":12207.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12215.10096875,"end":12216.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12220.73721875,"end":12221.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12270.61971875,"end":12285.250343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12271.41284375,"end":12271.480343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12285.250343750002,"end":12387.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12308.183468750001,"end":12308.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12309.53346875,"end":12310.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12310.984718750002,"end":12311.997218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12317.02596875,"end":12318.426593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12387.816593750002,"end":12400.574093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12400.574093750001,"end":12404.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12400.590968750003,"end":12401.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12404.286593750003,"end":12404.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12404.67471875,"end":12404.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12404.97846875,"end":12406.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12406.024718750003,"end":12406.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12409.484093750001,"end":12414.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12433.919093750003,"end":12436.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12437.496593750002,"end":12438.441593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12438.509093750003,"end":12440.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12443.36909375,"end":12445.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12444.347843750002,"end":12444.938468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12446.254718750002,"end":12457.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12457.67909375,"end":12458.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12459.535343750002,"end":12460.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12460.817843750003,"end":12461.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12462.15096875,"end":12462.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12463.26471875,"end":12463.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12464.20971875,"end":12465.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12466.555343750002,"end":12467.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12468.563468750002,"end":12473.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12473.625968750002,"end":12475.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12475.718468750001,"end":12478.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12477.574718750002,"end":12478.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12478.48596875,"end":12480.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12481.219718750002,"end":12483.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12484.442843750003,"end":12487.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12488.62784375,"end":12490.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12490.399718750003,"end":12493.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12494.027843750002,"end":12495.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12496.035968750002,"end":12497.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12498.364718750003,"end":12499.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12499.64721875,"end":12501.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12503.37659375,"end":12504.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12503.39346875,"end":12508.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12507.730343750001,"end":12513.855968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12511.020968750003,"end":12511.442843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12513.29909375,"end":12516.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12515.45909375,"end":12539.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12539.92784375,"end":12542.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12543.20159375,"end":12547.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12548.31471875,"end":12549.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12549.78284375,"end":12558.304718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12558.524093750002,"end":12561.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12562.219718750002,"end":12567.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":12562.23659375,"end":12562.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12562.962218750003,"end":12563.805968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12567.82221875,"end":12570.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12571.26471875,"end":12575.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12575.85471875,"end":12579.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12579.80346875,"end":12582.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12582.891593750002,"end":12587.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12588.747218750003,"end":12590.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12590.87346875,"end":12591.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12592.375343750002,"end":12592.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12593.438468750002,"end":12594.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12595.34534375,"end":12597.336593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12597.960968750001,"end":12598.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12599.20971875,"end":12600.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12601.504718750002,"end":12603.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12604.187843750002,"end":12604.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12604.812218750001,"end":12607.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12608.01846875,"end":12614.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12615.02159375,"end":12616.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12617.097218750001,"end":12618.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12619.122218750003,"end":12620.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12621.67034375,"end":12623.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12624.184718750003,"end":12628.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12627.509093750003,"end":12633.887843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12634.02284375,"end":12635.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12635.69346875,"end":12637.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12637.39784375,"end":12638.427218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12638.71409375,"end":12640.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12640.92471875,"end":12642.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12643.13534375,"end":12645.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12645.76784375,"end":12649.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12649.159718750001,"end":12650.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12651.066593750002,"end":12652.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12652.399718750003,"end":12654.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12655.487843750001,"end":12656.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12657.25971875,"end":12659.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12660.077843750001,"end":12661.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12661.64721875,"end":12663.317843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12663.621593750002,"end":12668.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12669.19034375,"end":12670.371593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12670.75971875,"end":12672.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12673.071593750003,"end":12674.843468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12675.88971875,"end":12677.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12677.93159375,"end":12680.766593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12681.441593750002,"end":12683.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12684.15846875,"end":12697.844093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12696.07221875,"end":12704.745968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12704.324093750001,"end":12706.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12707.63159375,"end":12707.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12707.648468750001,"end":12710.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12711.546593750001,"end":12714.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12723.409718750001,"end":12724.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12725.485343750002,"end":12725.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12726.46409375,"end":12727.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12728.25284375,"end":12730.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":12730.98659375,"end":12733.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12737.500343750002,"end":12738.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12739.57596875,"end":12740.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12741.01034375,"end":12741.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12742.613468750002,"end":12843.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12798.689093750003,"end":12799.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12843.914093750001,"end":12849.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12850.54596875,"end":12851.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12850.579718750003,"end":12910.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12909.96284375,"end":12967.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12923.09159375,"end":12924.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12925.454093750002,"end":12925.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":12925.47096875,"end":12926.939093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12926.939093750003,"end":12926.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12957.449093750001,"end":12958.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12967.152218750001,"end":12968.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12968.92409375,"end":12969.008468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12969.008468750002,"end":12969.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12969.09284375,"end":12969.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12969.109718750002,"end":12969.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12969.14346875,"end":12969.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12969.970343750003,"end":12980.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12980.027843750002,"end":12996.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":12995.164718750002,"end":13008.023468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12998.03346875,"end":12999.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":12999.906593750002,"end":13000.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13004.024093750002,"end":13005.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13008.023468750001,"end":13016.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13014.874718750001,"end":13023.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13016.730968750002,"end":13017.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13018.70534375,"end":13023.683468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13024.34159375,"end":13036.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13033.133468750002,"end":13034.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13036.96409375,"end":13037.099093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13038.887843750003,"end":13044.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13044.372218750003,"end":13044.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13044.422843750002,"end":13044.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13044.50721875,"end":13067.035343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13050.49784375,"end":13051.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13053.855968750002,"end":13053.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13057.09596875,"end":13059.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13059.222218750001,"end":13059.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13059.542843750001,"end":13059.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13059.72846875,"end":13059.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13059.930968750003,"end":13059.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13067.035343750002,"end":13067.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13067.355968750002,"end":13069.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13067.37284375,"end":13075.152218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13074.86534375,"end":13102.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13086.62721875,"end":13086.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13102.50659375,"end":13109.594093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13104.91971875,"end":13105.206593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13110.62346875,"end":13111.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13111.14659375,"end":13112.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13112.024093750002,"end":13112.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":13113.610343750002,"end":13113.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13113.62721875,"end":13118.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13123.92096875,"end":13128.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13135.88534375,"end":13136.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13136.45909375,"end":13217.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13217.89784375,"end":13254.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13219.04534375,"end":13219.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13254.38159375,"end":13261.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13261.637843750003,"end":13261.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13261.65471875,"end":13280.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13261.890968750002,"end":13263.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13265.60346875,"end":13266.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13266.059093750002,"end":13266.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13266.09284375,"end":13267.544093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":13267.544093750003,"end":13267.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":13272.15096875,"end":13272.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13274.41221875,"end":13274.715968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13280.655968750001,"end":13372.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13373.384093750003,"end":13393.043468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13377.09659375,"end":13377.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13377.29909375,"end":13377.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13392.38534375,"end":13435.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13435.905968750001,"end":13437.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13437.492218750001,"end":13477.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13478.042843750001,"end":13490.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13484.08409375,"end":13484.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13486.56471875,"end":13486.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13486.598468750002,"end":13486.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13490.766593750002,"end":13557.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13493.939093750003,"end":13494.512843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13557.794093750003,"end":13557.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13557.86159375,"end":13557.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13557.895343750002,"end":13572.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13570.56846875,"end":13571.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13572.981593750003,"end":13600.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13600.89284375,"end":13601.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13601.43284375,"end":13602.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13602.293468750002,"end":13602.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":13602.73221875,"end":13603.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13603.79534375,"end":13606.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13608.01409375,"end":13610.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13610.81534375,"end":13612.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13619.67471875,"end":13621.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13622.10471875,"end":13622.864093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13623.20159375,"end":13623.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":13623.758468750002,"end":13624.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13630.390343750001,"end":13637.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13640.54909375,"end":13643.063468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13644.548468750003,"end":13648.277843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13648.277843750002,"end":13651.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13651.433468750001,"end":13651.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":13651.770968750003,"end":13653.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13654.36971875,"end":13654.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13654.403468750003,"end":13654.673468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13657.238468750002,"end":13657.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13658.301593750002,"end":13686.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13660.664093750001,"end":13660.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13686.347843750002,"end":13692.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13688.204093750002,"end":13688.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13693.40159375,"end":13695.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13696.50659375,"end":13697.265968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13697.805968750003,"end":13699.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13699.03784375,"end":13699.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13699.425968750002,"end":13699.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13699.527218750001,"end":13708.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13708.16721875,"end":13709.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13710.73221875,"end":13714.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13715.659718750001,"end":13723.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13723.962218750003,"end":13724.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13724.02971875,"end":13724.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13724.14784375,"end":13725.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13725.81846875,"end":13728.687218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13727.219093750002,"end":13728.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13728.82221875,"end":13749.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13749.03846875,"end":13757.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13757.45909375,"end":13757.813468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13757.745968750001,"end":13779.970343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13779.970343750003,"end":13818.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13799.07284375,"end":13799.376593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":13799.376593750003,"end":13799.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13818.79971875,"end":13822.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13822.49534375,"end":13822.562843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13822.562843750002,"end":13842.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13830.004718750002,"end":13830.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":13830.325343750003,"end":13830.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13840.956593750001,"end":13840.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13840.973468750002,"end":13841.294093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13841.294093750003,"end":13841.327843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13842.964718750001,"end":13858.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13845.90096875,"end":13845.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13845.968468750001,"end":13846.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13850.524718750003,"end":13850.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13857.03846875,"end":13857.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13858.03409375,"end":13876.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13858.270343750002,"end":13859.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13876.64721875,"end":13877.001593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13877.001593750003,"end":13877.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13877.946593750003,"end":13883.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13880.984093750001,"end":13881.524093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13883.582843750002,"end":13884.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13884.03846875,"end":13895.564093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13888.594718750002,"end":13888.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13895.51346875,"end":13917.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13897.47096875,"end":13897.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13917.079718750003,"end":13940.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13940.97471875,"end":13999.007843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13952.04471875,"end":13952.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13952.078468750002,"end":13952.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13952.63534375,"end":13952.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13954.390343750001,"end":13956.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13976.85096875,"end":13978.504718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13981.54221875,"end":13982.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13982.11596875,"end":13982.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13999.007843750001,"end":13999.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":13999.598468750002,"end":13999.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14000.914718750002,"end":14055.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14007.445343750001,"end":14007.462218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14007.495968750001,"end":14007.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14028.117218750001,"end":14029.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14055.977843750003,"end":14056.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14056.028468750003,"end":14056.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14056.973468750002,"end":14057.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14057.024093750002,"end":14057.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14057.395343750002,"end":14057.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14057.53034375,"end":14057.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14057.969093750002,"end":14058.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14058.036593750003,"end":14058.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14058.964718750001,"end":14059.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14059.032218750002,"end":14059.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14059.082843750002,"end":14059.302218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14059.302218750003,"end":14059.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14059.977218750002,"end":14060.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14060.027843750002,"end":14096.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14095.836593750002,"end":14112.762218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14099.17784375,"end":14099.515343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14102.417843750001,"end":14102.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14102.434718750003,"end":14103.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14113.184093750002,"end":14115.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14115.968468750001,"end":14118.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14118.63471875,"end":14123.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14123.039093750001,"end":14154.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14134.767218750003,"end":14135.965343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14135.965343750002,"end":14136.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14155.33784375,"end":14156.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14156.24909375,"end":14158.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14158.004093750002,"end":14158.425968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14158.425968750002,"end":14160.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14158.847843750002,"end":14258.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14258.59596875,"end":14291.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14283.60471875,"end":14285.612843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14291.114093750002,"end":14297.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14297.20596875,"end":14299.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14299.36596875,"end":14299.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14299.73721875,"end":14301.89721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":14300.83409375,"end":14302.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14302.065968750001,"end":14320.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14320.476593750001,"end":14337.621593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14336.96346875,"end":14342.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14338.195343750001,"end":14339.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14340.625343750002,"end":14346.227843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14346.44721875,"end":14346.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14346.480968750002,"end":14347.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14350.66596875,"end":14353.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14353.399718750003,"end":14366.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14378.290343750003,"end":14382.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14383.16721875,"end":14385.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14388.044093750003,"end":14509.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14388.21284375,"end":14388.314093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14510.35409375,"end":14517.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14517.62721875,"end":14520.074093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14520.293468750002,"end":14525.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14525.49096875,"end":14529.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14529.945968750002,"end":14532.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14532.34221875,"end":14534.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14533.40534375,"end":14533.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14534.19846875,"end":14591.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14592.40034375,"end":14632.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14632.52909375,"end":14634.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14634.43596875,"end":14751.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14742.874718750001,"end":14743.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14745.70971875,"end":14746.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14749.523468750001,"end":14785.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14755.767218750003,"end":14756.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14756.03721875,"end":14756.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14764.05284375,"end":14765.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14765.976593750001,"end":14766.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14766.26346875,"end":14767.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14767.05659375,"end":14767.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14783.442218750002,"end":14797.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14791.677218750003,"end":14792.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14793.53346875,"end":14795.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14797.00971875,"end":14799.692843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14799.152843750002,"end":14825.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14826.203468750002,"end":14828.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14828.312843750002,"end":14828.329718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14828.329718750003,"end":14833.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14835.535343750002,"end":14836.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":14836.024718750003,"end":14839.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14839.804718750001,"end":14908.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14908.03034375,"end":14924.871593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14922.32346875,"end":14923.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14923.032218750002,"end":14923.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14923.656593750002,"end":14924.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14924.871593750002,"end":14924.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14924.88846875,"end":14924.939093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14925.05721875,"end":14926.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14926.96409375,"end":14927.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14927.031593750002,"end":14927.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14927.21721875,"end":14927.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14927.43659375,"end":14928.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14929.140968750002,"end":14946.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14930.609093750001,"end":14932.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14945.914718750002,"end":14951.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14948.715968750003,"end":14949.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14950.082843750002,"end":14966.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14951.500343750002,"end":14953.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":14965.675343750001,"end":14967.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14967.24471875,"end":14998.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14992.371593750002,"end":14992.388468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":14992.388468750003,"end":14993.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14993.40096875,"end":14993.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14994.41346875,"end":14994.953468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":14999.003468750001,"end":15062.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":15015.051593750002,"end":15015.102218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15024.19784375,"end":15027.555968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15063.145343750002,"end":15076.645343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15075.56534375,"end":15103.122218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15077.809718750003,"end":15077.910968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15082.770968750003,"end":15082.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15082.821593750003,"end":15082.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15083.05784375,"end":15084.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15103.425968750002,"end":15106.379093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15106.14284375,"end":15117.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15117.786593750003,"end":15123.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15123.70971875,"end":15123.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15123.996593750002,"end":15136.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15130.864718750003,"end":15130.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15130.915343750003,"end":15131.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15135.72471875,"end":15136.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15136.602218750002,"end":15138.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15138.188468750002,"end":15139.977218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":15139.977218750002,"end":15141.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15142.305968750003,"end":15148.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15155.856593750003,"end":15165.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15165.74534375,"end":15168.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15168.192218750002,"end":15181.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15181.45596875,"end":15186.501593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15186.535343750002,"end":15211.223468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15211.51034375,"end":15225.499718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15226.208468750003,"end":15274.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15276.52971875,"end":15276.597218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15277.035968750002,"end":15292.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15292.40909375,"end":15300.019718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15300.357218750003,"end":15317.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":15319.425968750002,"end":15323.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":15323.492843750002,"end":15333.145343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15333.921593750001,"end":15334.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15335.507843750001,"end":15371.890343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15373.40909375,"end":15375.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15376.480343750001,"end":15389.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15389.845343750003,"end":15398.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15398.535968750002,"end":15410.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15411.95159375,"end":15434.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15434.648468750001,"end":15434.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15435.880343750003,"end":15436.032218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15436.032218750002,"end":15453.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15454.61159375,"end":15455.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15455.52284375,"end":15489.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15487.770968750003,"end":15488.091593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15488.091593750003,"end":15488.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15489.79596875,"end":15489.829718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":15489.829718750003,"end":15490.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15489.964718750001,"end":15490.656593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15490.656593750002,"end":15490.724093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15490.724093750003,"end":15490.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15490.84221875,"end":15490.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15490.875968750002,"end":15490.926593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15490.926593750002,"end":15491.027843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15491.027843750002,"end":15533.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":15528.86159375,"end":15529.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15529.97534375,"end":15531.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15533.02971875,"end":15552.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15552.942218750002,"end":15571.403468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15569.091593750003,"end":15569.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":15569.10846875,"end":15569.648468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":15571.707218750002,"end":15584.093468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15585.224093750003,"end":15594.960968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":15596.90159375,"end":15627.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":15652.504718750002,"end":15652.52159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":47.039,"end":63.558,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":1059.766,"end":1059.787,"text":"這是"},{"start":1795.117,"end":1817.068,"text":"報告委員會現在繼續開會今天的議程是邀請文化部次長列席就《跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道》進行專題報告並備質詢首先我們介紹在場的委員紅夢凱委員還有我們林倩琦委員"},{"start":1826.161,"end":1843.236,"text":"我們介紹我們與會的官員文化部政務次長王石思文化部常務次長徐怡君還有我們公共電視文化試驗基金會胡炎輝董事長徐秋華總經理好"},{"start":1851.041,"end":1856.468,"text":"那我們首先先請文化部王次長進行報告報告時間6分鐘委員早"},{"start":1869.71,"end":1888.944,"text":"主席、各位委員今天應大院教育及文化委員會的邀請文化部就跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫公視第3台轉型兒少頻道提出報告而且備詢在此感謝各位委員對文化施政的支持跟協助那從本部為了改善台灣兒少內容長期在資源不足"},{"start":1889.544,"end":1914.361,"text":"與自治率比較低的問題所以為了全面提升他們兒少影視內容自治的量能所以在大院的鼎力協助下在去年完成了公務電視法的修法解開公視23年捐助定額9億的限制同時參照了各國公務電視每年都投入一定比例的經費在兒少內容的產制所以在今年我們就提出了從2023加上2024到2027的匯聚台流文化黑潮計畫應助公視兒少6億的經費"},{"start":1917.563,"end":1936.055,"text":"那由公共媒體跟攜手產官學結合本部文策院還有民間產業來擴散量能從兒少節目的服務域開發產製行銷等各階段來帶動資金合資合智整體提升兒少內容的時數跟人才的培育也健全兒少影視內容整體的環境那目前"},{"start":1937.523,"end":1965.404,"text":"公視已經提出了跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少的服務計畫那也預定於8月創建屬於臺灣兒童青少年的影音專屬平台包括電視頻道跟新媒體的服務那針對幼兒、學齡兒童、青少年分齡規劃製作不同的節目提供全方位的兒少服務那在節目製作上公視112年的兒少新制節目有326小時那113年已經提升到計畫提升到362小時那也為了鼓勵民間業者的參與"},{"start":1966.084,"end":1974.692,"text":"也透過合資合智開發兒少內容IP跟相關的衍生應用來帶動兒少內容的產業鏈的發展創造價值的效應公視已經陸續規劃並且首度在112到13年啟動多元類型的兒少節目的真案在兒少節目的真案裡面依照兒少節目的需求來進行節目的規劃跟公開真案"},{"start":1987.483,"end":2013.422,"text":"那在整個需求規劃上包括2到6的學齡前7到12歲的學齡跟12到18的青少年以及10到18的兒少戲劇跟動畫開發等這幾大類那112年的10月呢就是去年10月呢也展開了9大類型的節目真案那包括過去可能因為預算的限制製作比較困難的2D、3D動畫IP的影集還有學齡前也有幼兒學習的系列創遊戲運動體能的節目還有學齡"},{"start":2017.405,"end":2032.823,"text":"．端的還有新著名的母語學習節目．親職的棚內談話節目．還有大型的遊戲闖關．體能意志解謎．還有兒童的外景等等．還有延續公視自己本身的兒少IP．留言追這一類的．所以一直到"},{"start":2033.523,"end":2048.904,"text":"今年的1月為止已經有78家的業者投件,陸續跟入選團隊簽約跟開始共同執行公視也開始展開跟業界的合資合智,包括跟大貓工作室、合作有用者動畫、跟富邦文教基金會"},{"start":2049.625,"end":2065.134,"text":"和台灣兒童節目影視內容服務計畫的合作都希望可以因此來增加整個產自的量能。那另外在兒少節目跟戲劇服務的部分除了九大類的節目的公開徵案以外公視也透過了這個兒少內容的服務計畫來"},{"start":2068.396,"end":2092.603,"text":"與產業人才進行節目合作的計畫與製作。面對這麼多年來學齡前的節目的多元性不足公視在112年也首度啟動兒少節目的呼籲計畫提供樣帶的資金與資深的製作人的陪同來結合外部的創意來打造多元的幼兒節目。為了累積屬於台灣兒少的本土故事公視也在今年1月的時候就開始辦理"},{"start":2094.643,"end":2108.421,"text":"公視兒少節目服務計畫入選的團隊也以每組100萬跟一年的時間跟公視共同服務劇本讓公視對兒少的內容經驗可以做傳承跟擴散那同時也因應這個"},{"start":2110.219,"end":2123.457,"text":"有效來提增兒少內容的露出管道,公視也參照各國公共媒體的經驗,開始規劃了專屬於兒少的頻道,透過頻道以及跨平台的經營來投入內容產製,合作富裕,脫離過去單一綜合頻道的經營方式。"},{"start":2128.049,"end":2155.369,"text":"打造頻道跟學習平台線上跟線下由雙軌的收視的管道成為臺灣兒少內容產製跟人才服務的中心那預計呢這個兒童的專屬頻道會在8月來推出那目前呢它的規劃是由現在的公視的3台的這個頻段預計在4月底向國家通訊傳播委員會申請營業計劃變更那這個頻道的節目應該會叫做小公視那英文就是公視的縮寫PTS的XS"},{"start":2158.171,"end":2168.658,"text":"預計在8月13至19日試播希望在8月20日可以正式播出希望以公視兒少頻道來推動"},{"start":2170.656,"end":2188.899,"text":"這個策略的推動策略包括投入帶動兒少節目的產製然後匯聚延伸臺灣原創動畫的能量也同步提供網路觀看的數位服務也結合節目的內容跟教育的服務也打造多語言學習的營運環境那另外也跨平台部分公視Plus也已經做了全新的改版"},{"start":2189.279,"end":2215.902,"text":"今年也要跟啟動兒少的直播服務那除了公視之外其實文化部還有影視局跟文策院也都有投入影視局裡包括從110年到112年的補助兒童的節目已經超過1億4千萬那文策院也扮演這個內容開發的一個推手也跟了富邦文教基金會來合作那我想非常謝謝這個大院長期以來對於兒少營內容的鼎力支持那也希望透過這個"},{"start":2216.903,"end":2217.163,"text":"以上報告,謝謝"},{"start":2236.547,"end":2259.178,"text":"好 謝謝王次長的口頭報告現在進行詢答每位出席委員質詢8分鐘必要時延長2分鐘列席委員質詢時間為4分鐘發言登記節的時間為上午10點30分委員若有提示提案也請於上午10點30分前提出"},{"start":2260.478,"end":2274.383,"text":"並與本會委員范雲委員質詢結束後及進行處理處理提案時若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場原例不予處理首先請發言登記第一位紅夢凱委員質詢主席謝謝麻煩請王次長"},{"start":2289.933,"end":2290.515,"text":"有請王次長"},{"start":2298.584,"end":2328.324,"text":"市長早市長今天我們就這個兒少頻道的一個部分來做討論其實我想從去年大家共同完成公共電視法修法解除9億的一個限制那可以有更多的一個量能所以說我今天看到說你們的計畫是2023年要挹注至少這個兒少6億元的一個經費開始來做那但是本席也說其實對比其他包括英國、加拿大、美國、德國、法國等"},{"start":2336.007,"end":2345.931,"text":"臺灣今年8月才開始真的還是有慢吶那不過我們想亡羊補牢猶未晚矣但重點是我們現在來討論說到底我們未來的方向"},{"start":2346.471,"end":2362.351,"text":"怎麼樣能夠更精進以及加速來做我先請教一下在節目製作的部分我有看到這個時間新制的時間從原本326個小時提升到362個小時這只是一年是不是"},{"start":2362.811,"end":2376.777,"text":"是指今年,因為節目的產製大概需要一定的時間,他大概沒辦法說現在開始就現在完成,所以在今年提升的時數是預計113年的提升時數。那我們預計這等於是一年新制那麼多的時數,我們預計我們未來的目標是什麼?"},{"start":2384.071,"end":2400.612,"text":"這本期比較好奇因為這個只是心智一個頻道裡面頻道即便是算我們這個白天時間就不扣掉晚上沒有收看的一個時間或說扣掉比較大家會關注的時間如果說整體的心智時數來說以113年我們預估的是639小時"},{"start":2402.875,"end":2426.316,"text":"對,他比一二年的整體的心智還大那個計算基礎有一點不同就是說326到362的部分是指純心智那不包括這些本來的就純自治啦那其實現在公視的策略是其他除了自治之外他也同時跟其他的產業來做合作所以整體來說他的提升的時數是將近兩倍那362"},{"start":2429.238,"end":2434.881,"text":"所以說這一點就是本席納悶的地方就你連今天給我們報告照理講各部會都是報喜不報憂啊有盡量漂亮數字盡量多報結果你們是報憂不報喜啊"},{"start":2450.795,"end":2451.035,"text":"好,沒有問題"},{"start":2480.163,"end":2506.932,"text":"再來我想新制節目是一個部分但是更重要的是譬如說我自己是兩個孩子的父親我一個三歲半一個五歲我們自己念一句不及那個卡通明星我們念一百句不及卡通明星講一句說這個飯後要刷牙睡前要刷牙講半天我們要追著他跑然後說我來幫你刷牙他打死不要但是只要那個巧虎一跟他講是說要刷牙喔"},{"start":2507.372,"end":2526.93,"text":"他馬上他拿著牙刷說爸爸今天晚上要刷牙不然不能睡覺那一樣的道理明星很重要本席也常常陪我女兒看玻璃我甚至我都會唱玻璃的歌玻璃玻璃玻璃不怕任何危險玻璃玻璃玻璃以期勇敢冒險好 還會跳對不對"},{"start":2530.731,"end":2556.581,"text":"那麼輕鬆只是說來鋪陳啦重點是我們的明星在哪裡我們現在兒少頻道能不能舉一下因為本席剛剛特別也在YouTube上找不到第一是不是我們的公視是有什麼樣的限制我們不讓我們因為很多的家長一定跟本席一樣如果說真的小朋友要看這個節目的時候我們就是打開YouTube找巧虎玻璃"},{"start":2557.383,"end":2583.45,"text":"他可能就會有就可以給他們看可是到目前為止剛剛本席也看了你們自己講的什麼這些比較有名的節目我找不到半個我想我們在YouTube上有沒有辦法是我們有版權問題還是說我們有什麼考量沒有辦法推廣那第二到底我們的主力是誰我想對於台灣的自製IP的提升這的確是在接下來稍後內容的一個重要的"},{"start":2585.027,"end":2586.529,"text":"水果奶奶1998年到現在"},{"start":2600.004,"end":2628.547,"text":"當然我不否認我們台灣IP打造不容易我承認沒有說什麼你以為砸錢就沒有這種事對委員很了解但是能夠怎麼樣利用以他人的這個他山之石可以供措就是說別的國家有創造一些真的不錯的IP我們能不能有複製其實這也談很多啦台劇也是這樣嘛看到別人劇怎麼樣那我們也希望是說能夠複製對在產製的模式上 綜藝節目怎麼樣我們也希望但是好兒少頻道"},{"start":2629.668,"end":2650.166,"text":"本席想問到目前為止或說就次長你心目中的想法或說我們公視這個兒少頻道的想法我們有沒有一個主力未來可以代表我們兒少頻道我想我可以直接請公視就兒少頻道的IP的規劃這一部分來做表現來簡單說明好不好你們現在有沒有比如說一個頻道誰可以代表我們之後想到"},{"start":2651.755,"end":2671.236,"text":"其實《學過奶奶》當然是最招牌的但是因為它本來是真人來辦我們現在其實在前年開始我們已經把它做動畫化所以已經有個妖果小學的IP現在我們持續在推廣但是妖果小學它其實非常受小朋友歡迎其實我們辦很多巡迴小朋友已經都會唱跳那個妖果的主題曲了"},{"start":2671.776,"end":2700.046,"text":"那現在我們還跟他的授權IP給我們的那個如果兒童劇團所以他在劇團中他也有融入妖果的這些偶然後我們也授權了Switch他已經變成一個遊戲所以還有AR VR等實體的一個展演其實小朋友都非常的喜歡但現在就是過去資源不夠所以今年有這個資源進來我們會再把妖果的IP做更擴大我們必記資源打造妖果小學"},{"start":2700.526,"end":2719.711,"text":"腰是妖怪的腰嗎?對不對?預計我們要花多少的一個經費來做這樣的一個部分?其實腰果這一季第二季是4000萬的預算是在做第二次的動畫因為我們第一季是做了6集15分鐘而已所以我們第二季會再增加它的量"},{"start":2720.285,"end":2721.626,"text":"1162次1162次"},{"start":2750.414,"end":2775.911,"text":"說實在話這不是一個我們期待或是說理想或說真的知名度高的IP這很事實我們今天就是認識您剛提妖國小學我馬上查YouTube上公視兒少這個頻道是3萬8千人的這個點閱戶而妖國小學影集第一季第10集1162次的觀賞"},{"start":2779.332,"end":2793.804,"text":"第12集一千兩百二十二次的觀賞所以說實在話還這量呢還不夠喔量呢還不夠這確實來次長針對這個部分我們有沒有一個不要說KPI啦但至少"},{"start":2794.727,"end":2821.769,"text":"我們自己自製的節目我們也希望有教育意義我們也希望能夠打造一個好的IP那這樣子一個自製節目我們有沒有期待在今年剛剛有講了4千萬4千萬其實對大家來講不一定多但是有沒有一個KPI會認為是說至少我們在今年可以有多少的觀眾數或是說多少人來了解甚至說能夠推廣到多少甚至有沒有可能結合教育部有沒有可能結合衛福部"},{"start":2822.674,"end":2851.025,"text":"我想整體來說臺灣在兒少節目的IP的不足跟它的收視的情況沒有不夠理想這個是一個現實的狀態所以也非常感謝在去年才會以這個新的資源挹注整個投入兒少平台那我想兒少平台目前是一個起點所以在接下來不管是跟教育部跟衛福部的合作或者是說如何擴大因為現在除了這個專屬頻道其實公視也打開了多媒體的多平台的服務它也不再專屬於單一頻道"},{"start":2852.125,"end":2873.456,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":2873.797,"end":2898.507,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":2898.527,"end":2922.833,"text":"市長我沒有打斷你的話但是第一我們今天談論兒少節目你又去扯說我們不夠善良又扯到這個戲劇這個是有點奇怪那第二本席就是知道說現在不足不足是事實我們今天討論的是怎麼樣提升如同你今天的簡報是說專案報告怎麼樣能夠轉型兒少頻道之後能夠讓我們這個量能出來嘛這也是去年我們所以本席認為是說這樣子"},{"start":2925.107,"end":2950.983,"text":"兩個部分啦我比較具體的建議是不是能夠針對兒少頻道它其實受眾有那受眾主要是教育部主要是衛福部2到6歲可能衛福部6到這個12歲15歲這可能是教育部的部分都是我們兒少頻道一個受眾是不是能夠針對這個部分找教育部找衛福部這邊來開會來討論怎麼樣能夠推廣那另外第二個部分是針對我們的這個KPI"},{"start":2953.41,"end":2962.411,"text":"就是說兒少頻道總是你做出好的節目我也期待我們做出優良的節目但是做出優良的節目以外要有人看這個是重點嘛"},{"start":2963.677,"end":2983.466,"text":"這兩部分怎麼樣有沒有具體的計畫因為這樣子我就會比你今天我今天不否認今天的專案報告我身為一個家長我期待我們台灣有好的自製節目但是我要的是除了好的自製節目以外更多人看甚至我們的兒童以後成長的過程有"},{"start":2984.466,"end":3011.036,"text":"然後我們會自豪將來大了之後會叫我們的小朋友看我想在整體的時數上跟在觀看的這個流量上面的倍增應該是可以提出來的倍增對所以一千多次變兩千多次不是是整體的不是只單一節目啦是說整體的因為如果你的時數是倍增的情況下你的流量當然都可以達到至少是倍增的效果那我想最重要的是擴充那個內容這樣子好不好我比較具體建議第一是不是能夠找"},{"start":3012.276,"end":3036.699,"text":"文化部來邀請教育部跟衛福部這邊來討論一下怎麼樣能夠來推廣可以 這沒問題一個月一個月內可以 是不是我覺得這比較具體我不知道因為受眾在他們那邊其實我們很清楚我們的兒少頻道受眾是哪裡那當然就是借助他跨部會的力量那第二個部分就是針對這個KPI的部分到年底"},{"start":3037.779,"end":3064.937,"text":"我們能夠提出什麼樣我想下一次下一個會期開會我想我們還是會針對這個部分到時候本席會再追我希望是說我們好好努力一定會站在一個家長的立場上我們期待的是有優質的節目讓我們的所有全國的孩童能夠看到然後並且真的是有推廣是這也是我們努力的目標謝謝委員一個月開會之後再把結論告訴給本席以及我們教育文化委員會的委員可以嗎謝謝"},{"start":3068.235,"end":3068.596,"text":"主席"},{"start":3090.534,"end":3110.551,"text":"董事長好我想2006年7月1號是由公視跟華視組成公廣集團你那時候是公視的總經理那我們新任的文化部長小野是華視的總經理你們一起出席的這個所謂的揭牌儀式我還記得非常的清楚那時候小野還蠻高興的說我們希望華視跟公視的結合就好像是35歲的老娘嫁給小8歲的小新郎一樣"},{"start":3112.833,"end":3134.879,"text":"希望老棒生出可以生出好的結果對吧這段對話你應該很清楚就沒想到九個月之後呢我們的小野這個總經理夢碎然後他就淦然離去而且他那時候還特別提到的華氏已經是四不像了然後呢完全也就是不歡而散我不曉得十七八年之後你們再重新的重逢之後你對於這個小野這個部長整頓公廣集團你有沒有信心"},{"start":3141.345,"end":3156.444,"text":"謝謝委員我想過去的確有機會跟這個未來的文化部長有過一些共識的一些經驗那我相信他對公共媒體的現況跟未來發展都很了解我應該有信心他會來支持公共媒體"},{"start":3156.664,"end":3160.067,"text":"所以18年這是一個很好的緣份但是我們還是要就事論事因為你從118年8月到到任華氏說實在的18年來這個進入這樣一個機構當中華氏已經虧損了40億那你118年到任的時候我們不用去算但是呢112年應該是你完整的一整年那我可不可以了解一下112為什麼比111更虧損擴大虧損的1億"},{"start":3184.305,"end":3207.337,"text":"總共虧損了2.4億到底是什麼樣的一個問題用最簡單的部分跟委員報告第一個部分就是因為這個華視有了一個新聞頻道那這個新聞頻道的普及率的增加在NCC當年有承諾人事費必須增加第二個是我們覺得整個過去的華視在最近這幾年來投資內容的部分不足所以"},{"start":3207.677,"end":3212.46,"text":"所以你已經很清楚這個緣故了但是對我個人來說的話華氏我說實在的也非常多的我都還沒有列進去有關於這個華氏的這個房租的意助這是其他台沒有的我想台是應該非常的慶幸他們目前為止他們並沒有進入公廣集團而且他們現在已經轉虧為盈了可是看看華氏過去在我那個年代是一個戲劇王國沒想到18年華氏虧損40億如果你把這個房租放進去的話"},{"start":3236.252,"end":3236.412,"text":"請王次長"},{"start":3254.689,"end":3271.64,"text":"謝謝胡董事長可以回去然後我不知道其他部分只要有部分就請大家一起來做一個回應好了那次長我相信你今天是加碼6億給公視我覺得這還是有年代的一個差別那個洪孟凱說他們家小孩子看玻璃玻璃我記得我家小孩看的時候那時候是公視引進的天線寶寶"},{"start":3272.941,"end":3282.89,"text":"我還幫助他當作代言所以這就表示這個世代的差距但不管怎麼樣水果奶奶都還在只是現在過了這麼久她已經被阿祖了可是問題公視還是只有水果奶奶當作是一個最大的一個指標所以我們來看看這個兒少的節目到底有沒有辦法來做到你給我的資料當中是有6億的分配我不曉得部長你是不是有充分的掌握他的這個資源的一個分配你看6億當中"},{"start":3296.502,"end":3310.128,"text":"我必須要了解短短的幾個字我必須要了解因為你們目前為止不是新設的一個頻道只是一種轉型而且等於換了一個招牌那你內容公視的節目幾乎都是外包的那你這個人事費4300萬到底是怎麼來的不是你們都是外包的嗎那你都有現有的人力啦為什麼然後你們行銷要1億多請問這些經費短短幾個字誰能夠告訴我正確的部分到底是如何而且你看基本營運費要2000萬這個用途到底在哪裡"},{"start":3327.379,"end":3346.137,"text":"有沒有辦法誰來說明一下我想詳細的部分還是請公視來做說明不過還是跟委員做報告就是在整體的產製跟行銷上它仍然是需要新增的人力公視並沒有 4300萬欸我是說在整體的行銷宣傳上那你先告訴我4300萬人事費是怎麼花的你本來就有人啊 你們都是外包啊"},{"start":3346.974,"end":3372.248,"text":"它包括節目製作的本身啦並不是包括外包那你是把它放在人事費用裏面的節目製作怎麼可以放在人事費用裏面啊沒問題我想先請公視就這個部分等一下一併的回答我先不能沒有在時間之內回答請多給我書面資料去或到我辦公室來解釋因為我覺得這裡面我真的覺得公視這個文化部來說的話文化部對於公視就好像是自己的親生兒子對於華視好像養女一樣"},{"start":3374.269,"end":3374.729,"text":"但是我們補助應該已經超過5億了"},{"start":3392.814,"end":3412.242,"text":"對,你等下一併來做回答,等下這些經費不能只有給我幾個,我等下會請給兒少平台裡面有一個機會來做,然後我還是要了解到底目前的兒少的TA在哪裡,你剛有告訴我好幾個不同的一個階段,但是次長你會知道目前來說的話,東森幼幼台平常的市佔率多少嗎?"},{"start":3413.585,"end":3424.232,"text":"其實文策院這邊有做過調查的報告我想數字的部分可能要稍等我調一下不會啊我馬上告訴你啊50%以上啊加熱到45%啊你們做過這個部分啊是有做過這一類的了解所以我就說這6億的錢砸下去我肯定要有這個平台可是錢要花在刀口上而且你剛剛有特別提到了他的TA是兩歲學年期還有到國中還有到這個18歲以下你們有不同的平台對"},{"start":3441.522,"end":3463.463,"text":"你覺得像青少年跟國中生都會去看你們這些電視嗎?其實要看節目的類型,譬如說以青少年來說,像輕職的棚內的座談,或者是實境,或者是解謎遊戲,其實他們是蠻喜歡的,所以其實會有年齡層的差異。那當然有差別,你可不可以給我舉幾個你所了解的知子與知彼,你可以告訴我適合青少年的優質頻道現在有哪一些?"},{"start":3464.224,"end":3472.291,"text":"我們來比一下不要說公視,其他外面,我知道其他在外面有哪一些的頻道是青少年喜歡的,很優質的音樂節目是節目的製作還有什麼還有呢"},{"start":3487.298,"end":3516.878,"text":"我現在只能告訴你要了解外面的市場到哪裡我們的TA的設定到有沒有它的必要性告訴你這些全部都是這些你的你所設定不同階層的TA所知道的然後呢我也看到你們特別提到裡面你們希望給學齡前兒童的多元性不足你們認為因為多元性不足你們希望能夠累積屬於台灣兒少的本土故事我也同意有本土故事啊問題是你們呢有沒有辦法做出大家吸引的否則為什麼每個人都要去迪士尼去朝聖"},{"start":3517.438,"end":3521.719,"text":"就是孩子不管你是什麼本土國外的他只要你能夠讓他吸引他就可以問題是以過去公視所提供的一個績效到底有沒有辦法說服你的平台你的月看率到底有沒有辦法你的九大節目的開發有沒有辦法真的讓我們的影視人才蓄流好我們來看一個非常嚴重的一個問題喔6億當中你們現在不斷地有很多的爵就算你們都是外包我都看得出來"},{"start":3544.787,"end":3554.158,"text":"然後呢你可以目前來說有很多絕標這是我稍微調列出來的目前絕標的公司有哪一些是有口碑有擅長兒童節目的有哪一些可以講得出來嗎你們要不要救一下我們的次長有哪一些的公司可以"},{"start":3560.124,"end":3572.648,"text":"我想為請公視詳細說明但是還是要跟委員說明這是一個起點兒少頻道是從今年現在才要開始所以希望委員可以給我們可以給予支持但是我們還是以過去公視的這樣子的一個績效我們還是要來看你看嘛"},{"start":3575.009,"end":3591.757,"text":"我查一下你們這些絕標得標的公司裡面有些資本很小才100萬有些是1000萬有些是沒有什麼得獎作品也沒有做過什麼兒少節目而且有些是成立不久有些甚至連標案都很少我告訴你有一家去年他只有得標什麼去年5月的570萬採購案還有這一次徵案"},{"start":3596.079,"end":3602.344,"text":"二月的時候絕報了910萬他只有做公視節目兩個而且呢這家公司的營業除了電影製作之外廣告提供場地還有仲介服務我就不曉得這樣子的部分到底是如何我想這樣更證明其實在民間的產製的量能的不足這也是為什麼需要公視討論的原因產量不足但是這樣的一個公司有沒有辦法產製出什麼部分因為為什麼次長我要特別去這樣去講"},{"start":3624.039,"end":3645.358,"text":"原因是因為你們的KPI我沒有看到我沒有看到你們的KPI到底是如何就像我剛剛說的到從過去到現在公視或許非常有心可是你們製作節目的普及度普遍度和你所給我的資料我是要畫上一個問號我沒有懷疑說你們製作的一個決心只是你的能耐你們capacity到底有沒有辦法達到這個地方有沒有辦法達到這個地方我隨便舉個例子來說好了"},{"start":3650.342,"end":3654.323,"text":"你們公視的這個目前來說長期要被檢討像你們2021年你們本來是文化部是十億委託中央社嘛 對不對做這個所謂的台灣plus嘛那後來因為本來是預定說是有100萬的下載數然後結果只有5.5萬所以你們就馬上拿給這個連住這個住台的這個外面都認為說少得很可憐所以你們現在把它"},{"start":3674.907,"end":3677.369,"text":"台灣Plus現在已經在包括北美、新加坡、馬來西亞的落地其實都有一定的成績那你給我的資料你來看看連次長你相不相信"},{"start":3692.342,"end":3714.525,"text":"你們當時還請喬委會等等之類的你給我的資料是說九成都是國際觀眾有美國菲律賓然後你來看看你給我的觀看次數八月時候是增加了兩百萬這一個月我用單月來去看喔三月增加了五百萬好了到了2023對不起回到前面那一個台灣plus的觀看次數這一個月當中竟然有一千多萬"},{"start":3715.663,"end":3721.947,"text":"你相信嗎?一千多萬,對不起,次長你看看台灣Plus從成立到現在三年多它的總觀看次數只有三百萬次你現在可以告訴我說你到了一個月可以到一千多萬你到底怎麼樣來看看這個流量到底怎麼樣來計算的"},{"start":3741.32,"end":3752.651,"text":"因為一個月1000多萬次,次長你相信嗎?我把你全部加起來,我甚至調出那12月份的東西全部把它加起來,包括這個怎麼,全部加到這邊裡面才22.9萬,你每個月的關稅到1000萬,你這個次數也未免"},{"start":3757.615,"end":3765.66,"text":"關水的太嚴重了吧那不太不可能是關水我想那應該是計算基礎的問題不會有問題我們也很知道後台的一個計算到底怎麼樣回到剛剛前面那個次序來說請你很清楚的告訴我一個月當中是用這樣的方法你的官方最重要的YouTube頻道只有300多萬人次你全部加起來一個月裡面可以1000多萬人次但它是含次數啊好沒關係我也是用次數啊我也都用次數啊"},{"start":3783.872,"end":3787.074,"text":"而且還有一個新聞事件像那一年因為蔡總統的出訪那一個月就非常的暴增暴增也不會到一千多萬好不好你最多的人次上去點看看人員現在一個個去上去點次看我不管怎麼樣請給我到我辦公室或任何方法給我解釋你這些的流量是怎麼出來我會嚴格的看"},{"start":3803.363,"end":3812.965,"text":"因為我們從後台來看是完全不太可能我不希望我們要面對問題雖然你會發了非常多的錢但是我也不希望給我這樣的一個次數來去看待這個次數是據時統計據時統計來告訴我你是怎麼樣算出來每一筆來告訴我算出來還有包括你那個6億怎麼樣的分配人事分配、基因分配我們都要看得很清楚我們不希望一個這麼好的一個頻道都還是被當作一個實驗的性質公視"},{"start":3831.508,"end":3831.868,"text":"接下來請萬美玲委員"},{"start":3861.721,"end":3862.382,"text":"王次長和胡董事長"},{"start":3874.484,"end":3898.048,"text":"好,兩位早我想首先先就教一下去年5月26號我們立法院三度通過了公視法的修正案將其中第一條的條文公視定位為彌補商業電視的不足修法之後刪除了這個所謂的小而美的一個角色同時我們也讓公視可以掙脫每一年政府可以捐贈9億上限這個你們所謂的緊箍咒那這個距離這個修法"},{"start":3902.469,"end":3904.17,"text":"謝謝委員在修法之後的確在文化部6億元的捐贈經費的增加之下"},{"start":3922.944,"end":3923.024,"text":"所以會不斷進步?"},{"start":3945.526,"end":3950.089,"text":"公視4月8日公布今年第一季的收視率結果平均只有0.09頻道排名第29名收視的平均跟排名都比去年還要再下滑了整個頻道的排名更是5年來的最差"},{"start":3973.626,"end":3992.932,"text":"我們再來看這個晚間時段的收視率更只有0.19也是繼2008年以來的新低所以胡董事長我想請教一下為什麼我們立法院修法讓公視有更多的制播的量呢有給你更多的揮灑的空間那文化部的補助也從去年的9億暴增到了一個30億結果呢"},{"start":3994.973,"end":4019.979,"text":"你剛才也說了我們給予這麼多的調整結果你交出來是這種成績單你認為這樣的表現你有覺得有及格嗎?在你預料之中嗎?跟委員報告一下所謂捐贈經費的增加是有一部分是原來補助項目調整為捐贈董事長本席的問題是這樣的一個成績你滿意嗎?"},{"start":4021.547,"end":4042.877,"text":"當然還是有強化的空間只是有強化的空間所以你覺得還可以是這樣嗎那個董事長我想我們來看一下這個成績這樣成績覺得還可以這你可以接受補助這麼多的經費然後這個法令上給予很多的鬆綁希望他有好的表現結果排名是五年來最差收視率一直往下降怎麼會這樣呢"},{"start":4044.278,"end":4045.439,"text":"產制我們等一下要來談喔"},{"start":4063.759,"end":4064.3,"text":"胡董事長麻煩一下胡董事長"},{"start":4087.333,"end":4105.16,"text":"雖然我們從去年開始全面加速數位轉型希望提供在其他平台的服務不過我還是覺得原來的頻道它的確對於像比如說年紀比較長的壯世代的這些觀眾來講是非常重要所以這塊我們還是會努力"},{"start":4106.934,"end":4112.417,"text":"我想 會後你應該要擬定一個計畫出來因為本席剛剛聽到的是你點出過去既有的問題點那你只有既有的問題點然後你沒有一個辦法沒有一個計畫問題永遠就在那裡所以我認為給本席給一個建議真的要擬出你現在問題點出來的計畫是什麼"},{"start":4126.323,"end":4139.837,"text":"你預計怎麼改嘛?循序經理怎麼做嘛?我們沒有要求你今天是29名然後歷年來收視最低馬上要竄升到第一這不可能的事情嘛那你要調整要有計畫出來所以呢我希望啦針對這些問題點這些計畫你要開始做啦那再來呢剛剛提到了公視預計8月20號要把公視的第3台轉型成公視兒少頻道那這一點胡董事長我們公視準備好了嗎?"},{"start":4151.921,"end":4180.641,"text":"我們現在存在於衝刺當中準備好了嗎我們希望我們應該是有信心的有信心但是準備工作做了嗎我們按時間表在操課所以是有信心可以完成是這樣嗎對好很好因為只有信心沒有計畫缺乏執行力那是不行的好嗎所以呢我想既然我們有信心也有目標了那是不是你要為這個公視的兒少頻道定一個平均收視的目標這是最清楚的"},{"start":4181.984,"end":4206.527,"text":"跟委員說明一下因為今年8月才要開始所以我們覺得今年的經驗所以要請你訂目標啊意思就是說我們今年的經驗可以作為我們訂目標來年訂目標的一個重要的參考今年的目標我們在如果您談的是收視率的話我們還涉及到頻道的位置還有其他相關的資源的準備所以這個部分我們真的要跟委員"},{"start":4206.867,"end":4232.225,"text":"董事長我們拿文化部這個頻道拿文化部高達6億的預算但是呢當然您說就是依據今年我們這個開播之後來調整明年的這個收視目標我可以接受那叫調整但你不可能一個新台也拿了這個文化部的補助然後我沒有目標我說我今年來做做看說完以後明年我們再來設定目標這是不能接受的啦好不好我想我們再把整個"},{"start":4233.266,"end":4251.275,"text":"整體的目標跟包括流量整個的目標提供給委員很好 次長這樣做就是對的了我們錢補助出去了當然要有目標嘛所以董事長想說我們今年先來做做看然後等那個明年我們再來看看依據今年的狀況調整一個目標怎麼可能啦這不是我把六億丟到水裡去的概念嗎給你試試看來做一個遊戲玩一玩嗎不是這樣子的"},{"start":4254.096,"end":4256.278,"text":"次長跟董事長,文化部的專報我們看到在第二頁也有指出來在節目製作方面公視在112年這個兒少新制的節目的時數326個小時113年要提升到362個小時"},{"start":4275.912,"end":4288.879,"text":"這個大概提升了10%左右我想請教一下因為6億這個預算其實真的是非常的多但是6億的經費下來了結果我們整個新制的時數只有提升10個百分點那就是增加36個小時我覺得這個時數是合理嗎?"},{"start":4293.501,"end":4310.93,"text":"這個時數合理嗎?為什麼這麼少而要花這麼多的經費?委員不好意思,剛有解釋過因為它的計算基礎其實在之前不應該是362362是指純自治它事實上是639小時所以提升是超過百分之百所以它的數字的計算基礎應該是前後計算有誤所以這個更新的資料我們再提供給委員"},{"start":4312.373,"end":4331.749,"text":"麻煩以後要有正確的這個數字好嗎?好不好?應該是把所有的新制的時數都算上但是他提供的362指的是其實本席感覺這一個新制的節目當然我們對他賦予很高的期待也給他很多的支持可是我看起來目前為止有一點手忙腳亂荒牆走板要目標沒有目標然後我們要計算一些數字還會有錯誤那看起來我覺得還沒有完全準備好"},{"start":4340.276,"end":4352.34,"text":"其實是非常擔憂當然我們希望今天教委也排了這樣的一個題目那經過今天所有委員提出來的意見要好好拿回去做成一個記錄想想看目標怎麼定過去有錯誤不足的地方我們怎麼去增加"},{"start":4357.782,"end":4386.202,"text":"那再來我想請教一下專報第10頁我們提到在公視兒少頻道推動的策略中我們要去匯集臺灣原創動畫的能量然後鼓勵原創的IP來投入這個這個兒少動畫的一個影集的製作那我們希望能夠開發這國內帶狀動畫的影集然後藉由支持國內動畫製作的一個技術整合那可以達到打造臺灣原創IP動畫的一個影像我覺得非常的好那但是胡董事長一樣本期要請教你目前"},{"start":4387.023,"end":4398.468,"text":"公視是不是已經有找到原創IP來投入這個製作全新的兒少動畫影集了那同時因為8月嘛剛剛說8月20喔這個頻道要開播那所以在8月20之前我們的成果是什麼"},{"start":4400.599,"end":4420.101,"text":"就我們真案的部分在原創IP的動畫的部分已經委託出去了這個可以跟委員報告那第二個就是剛才我只是解釋一下我說收視率沒有但我們有其他的KPI並不是沒有其他的KPI所以這點也跟委員說明那您如果要知道那個動畫的部分我可以請我們同仁說明一下那個原創IP"},{"start":4423.381,"end":4447.015,"text":"開台的時候是勇者動畫系列第二季會在開台的時候播出什麼時候8月208月20所以8月20您所說的這個勇者動畫系列就會如期播出對那是我們現在已經在做的你要很確定喔在這裡可是不能亂打的喔如果你說8月20就能播出8月20的時候如果我們沒有看到的話誰來負責在這裡打詢可是不能亂講的喔"},{"start":4456.277,"end":4457.579,"text":"除了這個勇者動畫系列再來呢?"},{"start":4474.332,"end":4474.352,"text":"好!"},{"start":4493.752,"end":4518.829,"text":"因為我們看到了8月20日就要開播了那我們有一個這麼好的一個想法可是看起來還是沒有追上我們原來開播前這個計畫就能夠來完成那能夠這個如期喔所以我們這個時程都要往後delay甚至於今天我想其實公視的這個相關同仁來報告那這個時程也是亂七八糟一下說8月一下說年底一下有明年你們都掌握不住今天要來這裡備詢連這個正確的資料都沒有辦法來喔其實真的非常的堪憂啦這樣的補助的經費"},{"start":4523.932,"end":4524.912,"text":"最後想一點點時間一個問題我想這個地震到現在為止我們看到在這個"},{"start":4549.76,"end":4567.551,"text":"各地的文資的災損的情況應該都不輕那原來有說各地的文資的災損共計59處其中也還包含到國定古蹟等等那因為最近還是有很多餘震能不能你今天在這裡說明一下目前我們全國文資災損的情形是如何"},{"start":4568.211,"end":4591.672,"text":"我們大概全國現在我記得整體來說我們大概整理了200多處大大小小的然後整體的需要經費有3億多那這3億多我們也計畫從中央的災損的基金還有就是我們你說所有多少處的文資災損我可以拿一下我桌上的資料嗎你說有200多處的文資災損各式各樣的各式各樣的200多處的文資災損我們有一個清點數據文資局"},{"start":4594.774,"end":4594.915,"text":"已經有﹑"},{"start":4610.811,"end":4623.441,"text":"原先已經有69處的文化資產都完成了現勘這文化資產一共需求3.4億這3.4億我們計畫在3年內來做修復你說的是69處全部完成現勘了是的現在這是你的說法嗎是你要對委員會負責任69處的文化資產的這個篩選完成現勘了是這樣嗎現在是在專業服務團隊完成現勘第一時間現勘對完成了嗎"},{"start":4638.908,"end":4639.449,"text":"目前我的資料是由各地"},{"start":4651.482,"end":4677.132,"text":"完成69處阿是完成了69處那有3.4已經是估計出來的那持續綠路順序如果有接到匯報我們還會再持續繼續進行好我想次長這一點齁非常重要因為地震到現在了餘震不斷那未來的災損的情況是要隨時掌控的齁那我們要趕快去現勘就要去現勘那該要花多少錢多少時間要有個計畫下去趕快把它去彌補回來好不好這個還是要掌握一下我們已經在執行當中謝謝"},{"start":4680.503,"end":4686.085,"text":"好謝謝謝謝萬美玲委員次長請回好我們接下來請葛如君委員謝謝主席有請文化部王石思次長徐怡君次長好有請兩位次長"},{"start":4713.174,"end":4740.289,"text":"委員長早王次長你好今天我們首次見面之前也沒有通過話會前我對您有稍微做了一些瞭解次長您的一個說法我覺得很棒說最高竿的國際觀光的行銷不是直接提觀光而是以文化的內容作為替代的目標壯大台灣的內容建立文化自信讓世界看到不過剛剛我們有看到這個台灣plus我也很關心希望我們持續加油對於這一點我是很認同"},{"start":4741.63,"end":4759.225,"text":"現在我們正值第59屆的金鐘獎開放報名的時間舉辦競賽的獎項當然是一個國際交流跟分享的一個好機會但是假如我們的這個金鐘獎的報名網站出了bug我想對於台灣可能反而變成一個負面的行銷兩岸市場可以看這裡"},{"start":4759.966,"end":4780.481,"text":"自4月18日起就有意圖報名廣播金鐘獎這個新的項目先感謝但是要報名的時候就發現網站當機檔案無法上傳到4月19日下午5點多系統廠商仍回覆報名單位最快要等到明天4月20日重啟伺服器以後報名單位才能夠操作"},{"start":4781.241,"end":4803.515,"text":"金鐘獎作為一個國際知名的傳播媒體產業競賽項目報名網站竟然出現bug讓報名者差點無法在48小時之內去完成報名的程序真的有點讓人擔心實在是我們數位科技之島好像要丟了這個名字跟招牌那後來經過本席的反應也在文化部徐次長的幫忙之下主動聯繫了"},{"start":4805.316,"end":4831.947,"text":"網站在19日晚上11點多重新啟動參賽者也就順利完成報名但是我對於這個報名網站出現BUG超過48小時差點沒有辦法上傳我認為這完全不應該發生在這個國際知名而且非常重要的競賽獎項上請問一下文化部有沒有掌握委外廠商修復的到底細節是什麼BUG到底是什麼到底是什麼樣的檔案什麼樣的ERROR什麼樣的BUG可不可以稍微簡要的說明"},{"start":4832.867,"end":4839.764,"text":"各位委員說明第一個就是說其實它修復在24小時內就完成那至於到底發生的狀況是什麼那我就請徐次長來做說明"},{"start":4842.236,"end":4865.174,"text":"跟委員簡單報告一下因為我們在上傳圖檔的時候我們要把系統的圖檔、大檔再轉成小檔那所以如果當這個場上就是它業者上傳的格式有異狀的時候就會導致這個頁面會跳出一些錯誤的訊息就會沒有辦法成功的上傳所以這部分我們就必須要去重啟我們的伺服器當天因為線上有非常多的業者剛好在報名的旺季"},{"start":4866.235,"end":4891.236,"text":"所以我們沒有辦法馬上啟動好作為一個阿宅我覺得我聽了一半但是我覺得還是不夠完整到底什麼樣的檔案、什麼樣的格式是解析度的問題、檔案格式的問題編碼的問題、壓縮率的問題我們希望這個細節可謂請文化部一週之內請廠商整理以後將書面報告送到本席辦公室什麼樣的檔案格式、什麼樣的error、什麼樣的log我們阿宅也來幫大家了解一下好不好"},{"start":4891.696,"end":4905.545,"text":"那不僅如此身為一位Podcaster我自己也特地申請了報名帳號也謝謝通過啦那來幫大家檢視這個流程那我在此聲明為了公平起見今年我將不會報名文化部所舉辦的任何一個獎項申請這個帳號純粹是為了來幫Podcaster來了解啦"},{"start":4909.327,"end":4934.834,"text":"首先我在使用的時候就真的有點困擾我們之前已經看到這個某部會的這個學習履歷上傳這個只有4MB我們這個更小只有2MB那2MB上傳完還要縮圖我是不知道這到底要縮到什麼程度iPhone拍一張照片就是6MB了2MB還要縮圖縮到還會壞掉我覺得這個真的是有點可惜其次上傳音檔這個真的有點"},{"start":4936.154,"end":4964.161,"text":"有點小幽默上傳音檔還要自選播出日期時間連幾分幾秒都要手動調整而且還是一個很fancy的一個scroll bar你不小心按到55秒你可能還要稍微拖一下很像要打電動一樣我想這個其實所有的Podcast的頁面都有標的很清楚到底是幾點幾分上線可不可以跟廠商討論一下是不是可以讓我們的Podcaster或者廠商在報名的時候可以再更簡單一點"},{"start":4965.501,"end":4968.97,"text":"不然這我們科技之島真的有點小丟臉了齁那"},{"start":4970.069,"end":4994.956,"text":"再來第三也分享一下現在是數位化的時代大家都用多元的行動裝置有人只有平板有人只有手機結果我們竟然發現我們要上傳檔案要報名沒有電腦沒辦法完成這上面有一個小字說手機是沒有辦法用的我不知道有沒有測試過最後一點我先確認一下你們報名規則有沒有規定一定要電腦才會報名"},{"start":4997.287,"end":5018.345,"text":"抱歉委員 這個細節我要確認一下好 待會我會問一下你們的測試的過程也希望提供最後一點 最讓人不可置信也非常擔心的我們要上傳Podcast的錄音檔竟然需要先安裝系統上指定的軟體我已經幾乎沒有過這樣的經驗我要上傳檔案之前要先下載一個檔案還要安裝"},{"start":5020.567,"end":5039.297,"text":"這還不只是這樣喔 這個軟體居然沒有繁體中文的介面只有簡體中文請問一下文化部我們今天是報而且這個軟體你如果下載所謂的擴展不好意思這是大陸用語進去了以後發現是什麼1.6顆星評價非常低我都還覺得它是假軟體非常可怕"},{"start":5040.397,"end":5062.038,"text":"請問一下文化部我們今天報名的臺灣金鐘獎還是對岸的菁英獎參賽者已經快要分不清楚了我們合約裡有沒有要求系統廠商一定要用繁體中文我們堂堂一個國家級的競賽獎項我就看到這個簡體中文阿因為這個狀況其實不太可能是不可以被發生的所以我們會後會立刻澄清也會立刻改善"},{"start":5062.418,"end":5071.986,"text":"太好了太好了我想多久之內可以改善那到底什麼樣限期改善是不是都盡可能的快速的提供我們今天也都有媒體在現場那請問一下文化部我們會發生這樣的問題我相信大家都不願意看到也謝謝您剛剛非常負責就是說我們要立刻來處理"},{"start":5081.855,"end":5099.248,"text":"我就想要問我們今天測試的是報名流程是podcast其他的影片的獎項其他的獎項你說金鐘獎可能還有其他的節目廣播節目全部都來檢視一下那到底在這個報名的系統上線之前到底有沒有經歷"},{"start":5100.629,"end":5117.671,"text":"什麼樣的評估標準有沒有經歷什麼樣的測試有沒有經歷什麼樣的一個會議的流程這個部分是不是我可以因為我們是要求上線前啦已經發生過了可不可以整理起來一週之內提供我們了解一下就照你這個流程到底是怎麼run會出現這樣的問題好不好"},{"start":5118.812,"end":5122.015,"text":"我們會先澄清釐清為提供資料而且立即改修雖然我有點激動但我們都還是要來協作一起想要讓這個服務可以更好所以我想為了祈求金鐘獎甚至是接下來拿一個小禮物"},{"start":5135.836,"end":5137.477,"text":"我想委員我們就一定會做到,應該不用這樣"},{"start":5160.851,"end":5167.078,"text":"我想委員我們剛已經做了承諾那該有的改善我們都會改善好不好謝謝委員謝謝委員的好意謝謝"},{"start":5185.338,"end":5190.655,"text":"這是數位部部長唐鳳 怕您是覺得我畫得不好看所以不是我畫的 所以希望可以收下"},{"start":5191.465,"end":5203.77,"text":"那我想接下來我還是要來關心Podcast的獎項當然很高興有一個新的內容跟獎項上來但是我們發現這個分類其實有點特別生活風格獎、藝術文化獎、兒童節目還分成少年跟兒童這其實跟我們現在Podcast的排名其實是很不一樣的希望我們之後可以稍微再討論怎麼樣來擴增怎麼樣來適應台灣的Podcast收聽的類別"},{"start":5220.816,"end":5241.673,"text":"那我想接下來還有一個議題我也非常關注除了Podcast方面傳出好消息有這個新的類別我們非常非常的興奮這個也恭祝所有的Podcast希望都可以得到這個非常好的獎項而且也希望這個報名的流程可以持續的精進那在113年度的戲劇及節目類的金鐘獎的要點當中針對戲劇及節目獎、迷你劇集獎以及電視電影獎的類別都分別做出了調整尤其是電視電影獎"},{"start":5250.84,"end":5279.683,"text":"新增了一個定義要求競賽影片的長度必須達到60分鐘以上受到各界關注有非常多人來告訴我們這件事請問一下次長第59屆金鐘獎對於電視電影獎新增長度的規定到底是為什麼你們把它提高了去年的5部入圍就有2部是低於30分鐘結果你們現在一次提高到60分鐘是覺得去年的2部不應該入圍嗎是不是可以簡要說明"},{"start":5280.416,"end":5300.152,"text":"跟委員做個報告因為電視電影這個獎項其實我們一直在對標國際事實上業界跟評審已經反映非常多年其實大概有5、6年的時間都希望我們能夠把電視電影去對標國際的獎項有一個明確的分中數所以我們參考了金球獎、艾美獎跟所有的獎項事實上他們大概都是在60幾分鐘到70幾分鐘"},{"start":5301.493,"end":5301.673,"text":"好 謝謝喔"},{"start":5316.806,"end":5344.433,"text":"可是我想三金就是三金嘛突然又講一個金稅那你們現在可不可以好好來行銷就是四金啊那不然電視短片電影的短片相關的短片其實你不要拿說那兩個講說這兩個是這樣全世界還有那麼多的獎項你們全部比完了嗎也可能沒有嘛你不能說少數人這樣講我們就這樣做改變明明去年就有兩部這麼精彩的作品入圍我們也幫各位做了功課"},{"start":5345.393,"end":5369.903,"text":"事實上有非常非常多國際知名的導演都是從電視或電影的短片起家的比如說曾康平啦比如說我自己的超級愛他的電影《教父》到現在都還是全球百大前三名這個馬丁史柯西斯這個大學時期就以三部短片展開自己的導演生涯相較於長片、電影短片的內容自由度非常的高"},{"start":5370.583,"end":5399.69,"text":"那我想這個非常多的導演都在學生時代出入行的時候用短片來做作品啊許多的新銳導演都用這種方式來做出世提升他們可能沒有才錢但是他們可能有才情透過一部短片可以讓評審看得出來他的實力像去年第58屆的金鐘獎我們剛剛就提到兩部作品入圍低於30分鐘為什麼我們會用這種打折的方式來做呢那你們剛剛的配套說是讓他去做金碎獎"},{"start":5400.47,"end":5409.556,"text":"我們是不是趕快就開始來行銷嘛不是三金啊你是四金啊還是多金啊那不然你弄一個三金你說你這個不是三金你去報經稅那這樣我覺得對於這些創作者不公平實際上"},{"start":5415.492,"end":5437.03,"text":"我們剛剛看到的就是全世界讓我講完不好意思喔全世界也有很多新的風潮Netflix就已經開始在推動短影片的製作那Netflix到底是電影還是電視啊我們看到Netflix找威斯安德森就做了這個亨利休格的神奇故事啊片長30分鐘喔來報名金鐘是沒辦法報名的喔結果呢照樣奪得奧斯卡獎"},{"start":5442.435,"end":5443.175,"text":"金鐘獎太有指標了好不好"},{"start":5471.86,"end":5486.974,"text":"不好意思 我們就是覺得它很重要我們覺得去年有兩部入圍就是低於這個長度我們今年還有奧斯卡獎就是39分鐘我相信世界的潮流是很多元的不是少數的人少數的獎項是這樣我們就立刻要來更改希望有更多的討論有更多元的報名方式好不好還是期許文化部通盤考量"},{"start":5495.101,"end":5506.466,"text":"給予一個國際高度更多元的舞台讓台灣的影視音樂創作也包含新的Podcast可以擺脫束縛近期的自由成長野蠻生長茁壯持續的多元發展好嗎謝謝好 謝謝謝謝葛如君委員兩位次長請回我們接下來請郭育晴委員"},{"start":5525.751,"end":5529.387,"text":"主席好 有請王次長好 有請王次長"},{"start":5533.314,"end":5556.055,"text":"市長早安我想其實剛剛大家都已經聽到有很多人在關心所謂的兒少的一個頻道跟節目啦那我相信其實我們在公共電視上面也挹注了很多的資源就是在公共電視那但是相對的來講是不是在資源上的一個分配不均喔我們等一下稍微再來討論一下喔那我想"},{"start":5557.396,"end":5578.681,"text":"針對所謂的兒少節目台灣目前為止我們的自治率幾乎是全球倒數那當然其實我們也希望能夠把這樣子的一個狀況能夠在這幾年當中我們既然已經發現問題其實這是一個非常大的問題因為兒少節目其實對於孩童的影響有可能會是一輩子"},{"start":5579.601,"end":5606.289,"text":"當然其實兒童在成長的過程中他們的整個所有的心理的結構或者是他們的心理的一個素質其實3歲到5歲到7歲他可能都有不同的一個細微的一個發展跟不同的一個變化所以針對這個部分其實在兒少節目當中我們更需要挹注更大量的一個資源來提供給兒少更好的優質的一個節目我相信這一點大家應該都認同對吧好"},{"start":5608.63,"end":5626.459,"text":"市長知道慕尼黑兒童影展他們的宗旨嗎請教委員慕尼黑他們的兒童影展他們的宗旨是讓孩子們能夠從影片上看到他們成長的問題也能夠從影片上看到他們成長問題當中去得到答案"},{"start":5627.259,"end":5647.944,"text":"我想這是非常好的一個宗旨也值得我們一起共同來學習但是我們可以從這張表看到目前台灣兒少節目製作的時數這個2023年還沒有出來這些數據是文策院這邊產業調查報告所顯示的從2019年的1584小時到2020年的1243小時"},{"start":5653.726,"end":5673.619,"text":"一直到2021年的994小時還有2022年的890小時到現在為止我相信應該是更低這一點應該沒錯吧我們希望在今年2024年也就是從公視在兒少頻道整體的策略展開之後會有"},{"start":5674.48,"end":5691.63,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":5691.63,"end":5705.461,"text":"因為就我過去在影視產業當中其實我也觀察到一個現象所有的戲劇類的節目所有的節目類型當中其實兒少的節目是最難製作的相對的來講它的成本也最低"},{"start":5708.769,"end":5732.006,"text":"我說的所謂的成本最低是他們所花的能夠運用在兒少節目的成本是相對的很低我從一個同業當中的口中知道他們其實很用心在製作兒少的節目但是他們的經費真的非常非常的辛苦包含實境節目一集可能只有15萬你想想看一集15萬我們能夠做些什麼"},{"start":5734.247,"end":5757.148,"text":"是 所以包括政府的補助資金以及投資的資金跟民間合資合智的資金這些要帶動才有可能改善當然這是次長我們當然也希望是從我們的政府開始做起但是像之前我們舉個例子來講科普教育節目它其實就有比較龐大的一個資源可以挹注因為是國科會贊助的這一點您知道嗎"},{"start":5758.869,"end":5777.439,"text":"為什麼我們不能從國家開始做起而現在其實我們把所有的資源剛剛聽下來幾乎只有投注在公共電視上那其他的頻道我們不能再仰賴民間我們來看下一張圖在國際青少年跟媒體教育中心這是提供的一個2018年的資料我不曉得這張資料所有在場的與會的人士你們看過這張圖嗎"},{"start":5783.237,"end":5803.991,"text":"好 我們來看一下這個是從左邊依序是字字以及中間的橘色的部分是跨國合制以及外購的節目我們非常非常難過的是看到台灣所謂的兒童節目的頻道外購的節目幾乎超過90%以上"},{"start":5807.236,"end":5812.913,"text":"另外我們自己本身自製的兒少的節目居然只有百分之八"},{"start":5813.959,"end":5835.535,"text":"我們可以再回過頭來看一下左邊過來的第三個古巴他們自從在2007年他們的自製節目本來只有6%但是後來他們引進一些國外包含一些外國的團隊跟他們來做共同的一個合作之後他們的自製節目在2018年已經超過了33%超過了5倍台灣為什麼不做呢?"},{"start":5839.545,"end":5843.57,"text":"我們可不可以因為再來很多人都會提到所謂的兒少節目的製作的人才是不足的"},{"start":5860.109,"end":5873.874,"text":"但是我們從很多的大學影相關的影視科系當中其實這個部分就沒有在鼓勵啊所以這邊的人才的培養其實是斷層的我們也憂慮這個斷層但這個部分我們是不是可以從文化部、教育部我們跨部會來做這樣子的一個演繹讓我們在學校端就有人才的產出"},{"start":5886.019,"end":5913.867,"text":"也願意投注一些資源在他們的身上提高製作的費用這樣子我們的兒少節目才有未來才有將來啊跟委員做說明我想跟不管是跟學校的合作人才的富裕這個都可以展開跟教育部合作也沒有什麼問題那但是還是要說明就是在整體的這個影視音製作的環境它還是要有市場驅動這也是為什麼我們把第一目標放在跟民間的產製來做結合因為如果沒有市場的需求驅動的話其實學校的"},{"start":5915.828,"end":5920.593,"text":"但我們不能只依靠民間喔就像我剛剛以古巴的例子我們不能只靠民間我們是不是可以從我們的政府從我們的整個所謂的部會開始做起我們去引進一些比方說國外的一些製作的團隊他們來到台灣來跟我們做一個跨國的合作"},{"start":5939.011,"end":5940.393,"text":"因為我們看到其實公共建設他們現在有很多的擴大的一個真案"},{"start":5956.175,"end":5982.676,"text":"但這個擴大的一些政案包含所謂的侵蜘彈劃性的一個節目1680萬有60集沒有錯吧有60集但是一集其實我們扣掉平均的一些成本包含棚內包含人才包含機包含我們的這個所有的攝影器材等等其實這些人員的費用扣除之後可用的餘額真的也不高一集大概就是28萬含稅"},{"start":5984.949,"end":5991.991,"text":"整體資源來說其實以公視6億的投注來說相對於整個兒少影視影產自需要市場仍然是不足"},{"start":5993.44,"end":6018.505,"text":"雖然6億聽起來很多但是我們也希望其他更沒有被重視到的一些頻道他們也願意來投注這樣子的一個製作的產量我們希望由起點開始今年8月之後我們可以真的把下一次我們再來討論的時候我們能夠支持的這樣子的一個頻率是提高的可以嗎 可以我們一定會努力來做"},{"start":6019.825,"end":6025.234,"text":"接下來本席在這邊其實之前接到了一個跟公共電視共同出品的一個戲劇的陳情叫《不夠善良的我們》我們先來聽一下我們也讓現場的朋友來聽一下聲音的變化"},{"start":6076.161,"end":6079.086,"text":"媽媽好這是第一段再來聽第二段這裡"},{"start":6124.301,"end":6141.317,"text":"市長有聽出來兩端的差別了嗎?這個問題其實已經有跟我們反映那這個問題其實在公視這一端他其實沒有特別去控制這個音量他主要是經過有線電視的頻道播出的時候會導致這個音量的變化那通常會大概也有要求就是說有線電的業者應該要先進行音量的測試這樣的調整"},{"start":6142.498,"end":6171.714,"text":"因為這個問題已經存在好幾年了一直到現在其實我們大家都在想我們看到本土很好的戲劇的產出但是聲音是靈魂啊剛剛在第二段因為我們的系統整個所有的均質化的結果就所有聲音全部都大聲起來了變成雜音很多變成我們原本應該要聽到的一些所謂的戲劇的精髓我們應該要呈現出來什麼樣的一個整個所有藝術上的一個表現真的被大打折扣了"},{"start":6171.834,"end":6172.114,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝主席"},{"start":6199.66,"end":6202.782,"text":"陳秀巴委員王次長"},{"start":6222.532,"end":6232.347,"text":"嗯,4月3號的大地震之後,餘震不斷,那全台都有災情啊,其中也包括我們文化資產的部分喔本期這邊有向文化部我們這邊來詢問,截至到4月17呢,你們收到的這些"},{"start":6237.014,"end":6258.474,"text":"回報呢總共是有69處 20處是縣市定的古蹟 32處是歷史建築 1處是文化景觀以及有一處是聚落建築群那你們也初估就是修篡經費大概在3.4億喔那這邊要請教次長五號部會不會優先提供這個預算趕快來修復這些文子"},{"start":6259.395,"end":6274.51,"text":"我想我們會依據它損害的程度來做優先排序那因為它的資金有兩個來源嘛一個是針對行政院的災害準備金那另外一個我們也會動用自己的歷史舞棋先展開如果它比較有嚴重或者是危及安全的我想我們會排在比較優先的順序裡面來進行什麼時候會開始?"},{"start":6277.543,"end":6280.986,"text":"我們現在已經在座,因為現在已經評估完成,我想會盡快的來展開。那在本期的選區後,我們鹿港天后宮也有回報有災損的狀況,包括山川電集正殿的屋頂有裂縫。那這個部分呢,文資局有說已經率成專家學長,學姐跟,對不起,學者跟業務單位呢,現場有現看過。"},{"start":6301.401,"end":6319.53,"text":"預計是先將這個會漏的屋頂要先修復喔但是你們預計是5月中旬才會進場修復那現在已經開始慢慢的進入梅雨季節開始會下雨喔那而且這樣的強降雨下來如果說有這樣的裂縫也怕就是漏水進去之後會造成建築內部的損壞那這個部分可不可以再提早"},{"start":6324.392,"end":6350,"text":"跟委員說明我想有一些會有可能繼續造成損害的地方我們看有沒有一些緊急措施可以採取因為我想這個修復過程還是有需要要找專家的團隊恐怕也沒有辦法說馬上要去修就有它可以進場當然它修復它有一定的程序但是希望說可以再盡快因為我擔心說這個雨水會造成說內部一些其他的部分也造成損壞了所以也希望說這個可能盡快來協助"},{"start":6353.307,"end":6367.157,"text":"今天我們的專報是公視第3台轉型兒少頻道的專報次長不知道你們有沒有注意到我國的無線電視頻道公廣集團占了大概快一半但是根據NCC112年通訊傳播市場的報告來顯示從102年到110年在無線電視頻道的兒童節目大概都只有5%左右"},{"start":6376.724,"end":6404.483,"text":"在整體節目的播出率佔比是非常的低那今年文化部有透過黑潮計畫役助公視6億的經費要來產製優質的兒少節目那在今天的專報裡面有指出預計在8月就是8月20號會正式播出將公視3台轉為兒少頻道那目前你們這個所有的建制進度如何預計以後這個剛才講的這個5%的播出率這麼低我們可以提升到多少"},{"start":6405.103,"end":6406.404,"text":"您可以簡短的說明一下公視這邊"},{"start":6425.962,"end":6454.708,"text":"對公視來說大概就是第一個就要準備開台有哪些節目不管是自製的節目或者是構製的節目都能夠在開台的時候展開那很重要的是這一次公視的這個所謂的小公視的兒少頻道的開台呢不是只有在這個單一頻道它其實包括了是多頻道所以它希望在數位的部分也展開那這個部分會是我們認為未來轉型的一個很大的關鍵因為收視習慣的整個改變大概鎖定在單一頻道上看的觀眾其實相對是降低的所以我們希望在數位的這一塊"},{"start":6455.708,"end":6462.312,"text":"關於我們這個兒童的這個節目戲劇節目比較少其實本席這邊有詢問過影視局112年公告各類型的節目補助的金額總共有3億6千多萬但是補助兒童電視節目只有4550萬只佔整體經費的12%顯然我們在製作兒童節目的這個部分是比較缺乏那本席知道說這個是申請的部分是有點"},{"start":6484.466,"end":6484.826,"text":"市長的想法呢?"},{"start":6514.326,"end":6532.944,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6532.944,"end":6536.005,"text":"我們希望展開的是呼籲,就是說我們跟他們一起合作,因為其實在過去的這些年來大家可以看到就是說在整體的製作節目上幾乎是這個公共電視的這個集團包括公視、課語台、他語台、圓明台負擔了主要兒少製作的節目的內容"},{"start":6553.951,"end":6554.231,"text":"這是目前的計畫。"},{"start":6571.578,"end":6574.8,"text":"根據NCC的報告以及文策院2023年台灣兒少影視內容觀影勤委調查也顯示無線電視在我國收看的人數是逐年的下降同時OTT平台是逐年的上升而且在4到10歲的兒少部分又以收視OTT平台影音為主"},{"start":6592.771,"end":6608.151,"text":"那次長這一次我們公視兒少檯幕我們預計用怎樣的方式可以來吸引兒少來觀看那我們在頻道設立的初期有沒有設定收視的目標有沒有這樣子的一個自己設定的目標來達成這樣的達成率"},{"start":6610.37,"end":6632.189,"text":"好,第一個就是幾個變相,第一個公視Plus它本來就有在經營這個數位的平台在去年也改版了那也用所謂的親子家庭專區這個方式用分鄰的方式來促進大家可以養成這樣的收視習慣那另外就是在這個小公視的開台之後呢也包括這個公視的兒少的網路平台兒少的YouTube還有這個公視Plus這個專區這幾個"},{"start":6634.946,"end":6649.241,"text":"通過這個整體的數位串流平台的這些頻道也讓更多人可以看到這些公視的節目這是現在也是在公視從單一頻道轉型的一個重要的計畫那至於在整體的收視的"},{"start":6650.362,"end":6658.004,"text":"或者是說透過這個平台觀看的這個流量上我想我們也會來訂定KPR來提供大員來做參考所以你們自己也會定一個目標是那在根據文策院這邊的報告指出喔兒少不同的年齡感興趣的節目是不太一樣的4到8歲呢以音樂唱跳類為主就是比較動態比較活潑的那以9到10歲的部分呢會轉去看劇情為主的卡通動畫類別次長目前我們公視兒少頻道的直播節目有沒有針對兒少的需求不同"},{"start":6680.051,"end":6685.575,"text":"的確公視現在就是以不同的年齡層的需求來進行規劃所以可以分為可以看到就在學齡前像2到6歲他所提供的可能就是音樂啦肢體啦遊戲這一類那如果是學齡的7到12歲他提供就會包括科學實驗啦實境節目啦外景計時這一類那如果是12到18歲青少年他就會出現解謎啦或者是這個親子"},{"start":6709.631,"end":6710.251,"text":"目前兒少收視以OTT平台為主"},{"start":6726.276,"end":6733.325,"text":"以我國目前訂閱率比較高的OTT平台為例上面的兒童專區的部分並沒有像一般的頁面有選擇台灣節目的部分所以說以後我們公視自播的節目會不會有推廣到OTT平台的這些規劃"},{"start":6742.608,"end":6759.472,"text":"有,這個就是我們希望努力的所以委員這個建議我們也非常希望可以做到如果未來在OT的平台上可以看到公視的不管是我們自己製作的戲劇節目或者是兒童的節目我想會是一個最好的選項那也謝謝次長你有這樣的想法因為文化部我們投入了近6億的預算讓公視來直播優質的兒少節目那應該也要"},{"start":6764.253,"end":6770.816,"text":"除了在我們公視三台播出之外應該持續推廣到兒童現在兒少比較主要收視的OTT平台讓更多的這些兒少可以觀看到我們台灣自製的優質的節目那本席有發現在無線電視的節目播放方面其實重播率從103年到111年大概都是大概五成左右但是從108年開始一路飆升到將近六成"},{"start":6788.943,"end":6791.885,"text":"但是台語節目在無線電視的播放佔比從111年的有將近兩成到110年又回到大概一成出頭那今年我們執行的這個黑潮計畫有提升我國自製優質節目的數量推廣我國的影視音音的文化"},{"start":6807.597,"end":6815.16,"text":"但是在電視台的這個重播率呢卻持續的攀升部長您覺得說我們要如何來推動這個台語發展的業務如何來推動我們多次播台語節目應該如何改善你們有什麼目標我們現在的做法是這樣因為我們有這個母語計畫就是希望來推動整體使用台語的情況"},{"start":6828.406,"end":6845.359,"text":"我們現在做法倒不一定是直接製作台語的節目包括最好當然有所有的節目是全台語但另外還有一個方式是像現在其他的比如說兒少的節目或者是卡通的配音出現台語讓更多的節目都使用台語來發音也就是即使你是看原本的收視習慣你仍然可以選擇台語發音的選項那加上同時來提高製作台語戲劇或者是台語的動畫的成本的這個"},{"start":6854.085,"end":6866.399,"text":"整體的結構也包括資金跟臺灣自治的IP文化部最近你們有一個網路影音內容臺語主流化的這個徵建的活動是希望說影音節目動畫影片有聲節目等等用臺語來製播適合兒少觀看的內容那這個部分呢深情踴躍嗎目前"},{"start":6875.265,"end":6877.988,"text":"因為還沒有截止,所以你們沒有大家去看一下說來申請的人有不有願,來投稿的人?"},{"start":6895.229,"end":6924.769,"text":"對,因為總的來說大概都要到截止日前案件才會湧進來比較完整,我們可以到截止日之後再跟你們說。這個部分齁,你們這個政見的規定就是說至少直播十幾集,每一集的長度只有20分鐘,而可以使用它既有的網路的內容轉譯成台語或是直播新的台語節目。但是這個部分呢我要提醒就是說,因為它是要推廣台語的使用喔,如果後續入選者他們在台語的使用上或是念法上有疑義,你們有沒有相關的協助可以提供?"},{"start":6927.031,"end":6931.534,"text":"就是說投稿的人他本身在製作的時候如果有這樣子需要協助的地方你們可以提供他協助嗎?"},{"start":6953.745,"end":6974.665,"text":"應該是說這樣他要製作的時候我們就會要求他一定要有這個條件他不可以沒有台語指導員因為如果沒有的話我們會未來如果他在語言的使用上出現問題的時候其實會引起比較大的爭議啦對那以現在製作節目來說其實都有配置這樣的一個台語的指導員那現在像已經在上映的這些像鹽水大飯店啦這些他其實都有完成這樣的一個責任"},{"start":6975.846,"end":6992.326,"text":"市長請教這些入選的作品將來你們截稿之後你們截止徵件之後你們入選的這些作品會透過怎樣的方式來播送是在入選者的個人網路平台還是說你們有一個這樣的頻道來播送這些節目他們在提出這個"},{"start":6995.953,"end":6998.895,"text":"所以有入選的作品是在他個人的頻道上播放?至少那你們有沒有去設一個目標就是說他這個節目應該要推廣給多少的人次來觀看?"},{"start":7023.993,"end":7049.974,"text":"我們沒有特別的規定在人數流量上的限制目前那如果沒有一個人數流量上的去一個規定的話你們怎麼知道說這樣的節目受不受歡迎以後是不是要日後是不是要再推動這樣子的計畫我們基本上在審查的過程裡面會以這個作為審查的條件之一啦就大家會參考說這個節目是不是能夠受歡迎因為是不是能夠受到市場的重視當然也是審查的基礎"},{"start":7052.395,"end":7052.415,"text":"檢驗指標"},{"start":7076.703,"end":7086.587,"text":"接下來我們要推動這樣的計畫的時候可以作為參考所以這個部分也希望你們我看你們會後來我辦公室我們來討論一下好了因為主席已經站起來了好 謝謝主席 謝謝委員好 謝謝秀堡委員次長秦暉我再次宣告一下待本席質詢完畢我們休息五分鐘接下來請吳佩奕委員"},{"start":7108.602,"end":7111.978,"text":"謝謝主席 我請文化部次長好 請王次長"},{"start":7116.809,"end":7120.132,"text":"委員好 次長好 我們台灣的變裝皇后尼菲亞尼菲亞在我們這個世界國際的RuPaul這個比賽當中奪冠那是史上的第一人也打破了這個節目13季以來的這個亞洲魔咒那我們小英總統第一時間也到社群台上面去給她祝賀"},{"start":7138.707,"end":7155.682,"text":"其中就提到說變裝皇后這是一個非常不容易的一個藝術恭喜她的成就以及勇敢的做自己那文化部的臉書呢也發表了一篇文章那現在最新的消息是傳出我們文化部因為今年有參與巴黎的文化奧運我們有一個台灣館嘛也會邀請尼菲亞來到現場去演出嗎目前的規劃是怎麼樣"},{"start":7161.867,"end":7176.507,"text":"是,因為我們這一次巴黎的這個奧運有一個文化奧運的項目那台灣也有參與那所以呢我們也有邀請了非常多的團體我們邀請了22個團體,超過120個人進行現場的演出那其中呢有一個位就是尼菲亞"},{"start":7177.268,"end":7180.749,"text":"其實對於台灣的文化藝術表演團體能夠出海能夠在國際的舞台上面讓更多人看見我想這是對我們台灣的本土文化界來說是一個非常重要的一個舞台那今年的巴黎文化奧運它總共是有幾個國家的場館那整個目前接洽籌備的進度過程是怎麼樣"},{"start":7201.135,"end":7228.838,"text":"跟委員做說明這個所謂的文化奧運的部分是這一次巴黎奧運的單獨的發起那在整個法國裡面它其實是一個大的完整計畫在法國有700多個城市裡面有推出2500項的計畫那在巴黎這裡比較特殊的是它會有一個拉維特園區這個園區裡面會有獨立的這個邀請透過園區的邀請來讓各個不同的國家在這邊進行文化性的交流跟演出那台灣因為是受邀的單位之一"},{"start":7229.138,"end":7250.794,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":7250.794,"end":7252.295,"text":"所以說只有十幾個國家有受到邀請臺灣是其中之一我們文化部有沒有去常看過了我們現場有什麼樣的硬體的規劃然後我們目前已經"},{"start":7272.304,"end":7286.093,"text":"在籌備要一起到參與巴黎文化奧運的我們台灣自己的這些團體我們在邀請的時候我們是用什麼樣的概念去邀請的我們希望帶什麼樣的台灣文化到這個舞台上面讓世界看到"},{"start":7286.667,"end":7286.787,"text":"電子花車運過去嗎?"},{"start":7304.418,"end":7332.156,"text":"我本來很想暈但是因為有觸犯到我們的法規因為會變成進口車輛所以後來沒有暈但我們在透過設計讓現場呈現在台灣的廟城前電子花車展開演出的樣子就是我們大家最熟悉一輛很厲害像那個機器人一樣電子花車一旦打開之後的那樣的演出那在整個演出的主題上我們大概分成四項比較大的主題第一個當然就是自由之神希望大家看見台灣因為自由民主而有的多元那另外就是島嶼風華就是以台灣的"},{"start":7334.057,"end":7334.237,"text":"以此四大目標"},{"start":7361.015,"end":7364.319,"text":"．約22個團體．約123個人是表演者會跟我們出去．所以包括樂團、舞團、戲劇、DJ．然後變裝皇后這一類的演出都會在台灣的舞台上看到"},{"start":7380.358,"end":7408.261,"text":"我想法國用國家的力量來投入文化奧運除了說藝術的交流本身就有其非常重要高貴的價值以外這也是一個很好的文化外交所以我們其實也非常的謝謝寧菲因為她在整個比賽的過程當中她多次提到說她很希望能夠透過她自己的表現讓世界看見台灣的文化以及看見台灣我們珍貴民主自由的價值"},{"start":7408.942,"end":7413.847,"text":"所以他在領獎的時候他說台灣This is for you這個獎項獻給台灣但是我們要怎麼樣去孕育更多我們本土的藝術家每一個藝術家在走上國際的舞台在成為台灣之光之前都有一個很長期培養奮鬥的過程我們政府千萬不可以是他已經是台灣之光了我們才來去"},{"start":7432.585,"end":7435.808,"text":"我們應該政府是要是呼籲人才很重要的一個後盾所以尼菲亞其實她過去在台灣當本土我們本土的變裝皇后是從事了五年多的時間最早的發跡起源地也就在我的選區西門迪的紅樓台灣的變裝皇后文化的起源就是在西門"},{"start":7456.007,"end":7456.627,"text":"我注意到文化部有一個臺灣品牌團隊計畫"},{"start":7483.018,"end":7488.223,"text":"已經進行了10年多了這個計畫也是支持了我們非常多台灣重要的表藝團體不過我希望我們能夠要有一個持續的能夠來去支持新興的表演藝術這樣相應的計畫"},{"start":7499.395,"end":7508.898,"text":"因為我們過去的這個臺灣品牌團隊計畫我看長期以來它比較集中在幾個類型的表演藝術所以這部分我希望我們文化部像這一次我們帶團體到巴黎的文化奧運去演出我覺得也就是一個很好的嘗試給予他們一個舞台但是平常的長期的這個培育我想也是非常的重要這部分我希望文化部可以一起來支持"},{"start":7524.164,"end":7538.271,"text":"是,跟委員說明其實不是只有品牌計畫而已其實包括在我們表議的範圍裡面我們也有針對表議的計畫也有特別扶植所謂青壯世代的這個計畫那我想現在也有很多案子我們在開展跟徵求"},{"start":7539.692,"end":7566.934,"text":"特別提到的是這一次其實去巴黎文化奧運的這個計畫我們其實就是看出了這個世代的差異就是說我們希望在每個世代台灣都有可以站在國際舞台上面的團體所以在這一次裡面委員可以看得到我們在邀請的這個團體上它其實是一個新世代的演出所以才會有編裝皇后有DJ包括有現代跟傳統的混合型的演出那這一類的演出其實就是在台灣現在世代的演出所以委員剛提到的針對不同的"},{"start":7568.655,"end":7572.456,"text":"台灣品牌的出海我們走進國際市場或者是我們來引入國際資源這個也是我們現在在推動我們的兒少台兒少節目兒少節目內容很重要的一點嘛"},{"start":7592.443,"end":7599.192,"text":"所以在你們報告當中也有提到說除了文化部文策院也有來支持我們本土的這些兒少節目的內容例如說動畫的產出啊希望能夠有機會來出海跟國際來連結但我現在看到我們目前嘛"},{"start":7608.283,"end":7612.386,"text":"我們的這個兒少台我們的目標是時數從326個小時要增加到362個小時的節目然後黑潮計畫要投注6億但是這樣的預算規模我們如果跟幾個其他國家比起來來說以這個我們公共電視台的這種預算我們先不講這6億總預算來講我們這個規模其實差距仍然是相當之大"},{"start":7633.584,"end":7639.431,"text":"例如說英國的BBC一年的經費投入在公共電視台的投入是2000多億台幣那日本的NHK是等於一年大概是7000億的日元也大概是2000億的台幣這是我們公視的110倍以韓國來說"},{"start":7651.083,"end":7668.617,"text":"韓國大概也有台灣的將近要20倍所以雖然我們現在黑潮計畫多投入了6億這個很重要但仍然是一個很困難的挑戰所以說在我們的這個節目製作裡面我看下來我們其實有兩個策略一個是本土自治"},{"start":7669.65,"end":7699.65,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7699.71,"end":7707.031,"text":"我想公視會有一個實數比例的一個規劃不過整體來說其實台灣在現在兒少女適應的產制上來說是整體的量能不足就是說與其說談到實數比例的規劃不如說先增強整體的量能因為不管是哪一種其他的量能都是不足的我們比較期待的是"},{"start":7729.756,"end":7746.231,"text":"除了自製、偽製,同時也透過富裕跟民間來合作提高台灣本土自己自製的量包括跟台灣自己的IP來做合作讓這些IP可以成為台灣動畫或者是戲劇的一部分那另外在國際的部分在現在因為已經受到歡迎的動畫那在短時間之內我們很難有這麼好高質量跟長期數的動畫來做"},{"start":7753.797,"end":7755.939,"text":"目前的規劃是這樣那如果是公視的比例上的規劃我想可以請公視會後再提供給委員做參考"},{"start":7772.81,"end":7798.74,"text":"好,因為不管是本土自治還是跟國際IP合作就剛剛次長講到人才就都是最重要的根本因為我們有人才我們這個產業才有辦法長期的發展所以我希望不管是文化部還是我們文策院相關的計畫人才的培育一定都是我們非常重要的重點那最後是一個建議因為我們文化部有關兒童相關的業務除了我們現在講的公共電視台小公視以外"},{"start":7799.62,"end":7805.667,"text":"我們有國家兒童未來館也在籌備當中我們有很多表演藝術工作者也專門是兒童劇團甚至例如說各縣市政府我們台北市每一個行政區也都有兒童館我覺得我們應該有一個整體相關的布局跟規劃例如說在我們自己的場館裡面"},{"start":7817.6,"end":7831.952,"text":"是不是可以來多放我們公視直播的兒童節目內容這希望文化部也能夠來地方跟地方政府來進行盤點把我們的資源花了這麼多資源來籌備這些內容應該讓他可以被看見這個我們來進行規劃謝謝委員好謝謝謝謝吳佩穎委員好次長請回我們接下來請張雅琳委員"},{"start":7848.652,"end":7849.072,"text":"王次長胡董事長"},{"start":7865.599,"end":7887.279,"text":"首先我要花一點時間來恭喜我們這次變裝皇后尼菲亞得到一個盧寶羅變裝皇后節目的冠軍那她也即將代表剛剛佩玉委員說的巴黎文化奧運那但是為什麼用這個時間來說這件事情其實是我想除了很多人現場看過她除了一些現場看過她表演的人我想還有很多人都是透過三年前公視的我的閨蜜"},{"start":7888.16,"end":7911.13,"text":"現在晚上的我的閨蜜老媽而認識他那我覺得這件事情我要肯定就是公視很有前瞻性而且不會因為說他不是一個主流文化我們就沒有去關注他我們就忽視了這個群體那我也期許就是公視接下來我們在開這個兒少台的時候也可以保持這樣子的前瞻性、多元性來去繼續製作我們相關的節目"},{"start":7912.731,"end":7931.867,"text":"接下來就要講我們現在的兒少節目的一個角色的多元性我們看了一下2017年陳正昌教授做了一個全球兒少節目性別在線研究的時候是有發現說台灣目前的兒少節目裡面其實我們好像主要的角色"},{"start":7932.648,"end":7934.209,"text":"我想這個方向一定可以來繼續努力"},{"start":7961.427,"end":7986.561,"text":"這個就要請我們繼續來做一些設定那再來就是說這個其實像剛剛講的就是多元性其實台灣有很多的孩子也是來自於不同的國家那像美國他講這個Dora是非常有名的一個卡通那這個小孩本身是拉丁裔的那他們還有另外一個卡通叫Arthur也是一個非常有名的那裡面的一個他好朋友的角色是來自於越南所以我覺得這個東西除了我們剛剛講的"},{"start":7987.682,"end":7987.702,"text":"〔記者〕"},{"start":8007.844,"end":8023.917,"text":"但是我看到這一次兒少台的一個報告裡面有講就是說在學齡前學齡跟青少年的比例都是在一個蠻持平的一個標準所以這個部分也是我要給公視的一個肯定那接下來我們就要進入比較挑戰的部分了"},{"start":8024.697,"end":8053.094,"text":"就是說我們現在在公視的兒少資源網裡面我們的教案目前你可以看到基本上是沒有多元語言的教案我們大概就只有一個雙語教育可是根據國家語言發展法第13條第2項政府捐贈從事傳播制裁團法人應提供國家語言的多元服務也就是說公視是有振興國家語言那個法定義務的那我知道公視當然是說它有台語台跟客語台但是為什麼我們今天要做兒少台"},{"start":8053.914,"end":8069.859,"text":"就是因為我們認為就是兒少有需要的一些專門的節目那也就在於說語言這件事情母語的保存其實是小時候來學是最好的所以我們要提早來接觸所以我希望在這個部分我們是不是可以來規劃多元語言的教材呢?"},{"start":8072.052,"end":8090.928,"text":"跟委員做說明大概幾件事情第一個就是針對多語的部分其實公視也有展開在這一次兒少頻道成立以後它就有展開所謂新著名的兒少產制所以的確會特別重視所謂新著名不同種族的語言來運用那甚至公視現在已經投入在積極策劃就是以越南語的發音來規劃一檔節目"},{"start":8092.729,"end":8119.302,"text":"這是第一個那第二個就是在兒少資源網的這個部分那因為它當時製作的時候這個部分是for教案所以它並沒有支持多語的就是說它是提供老師們作為一個參考跟輔助性的教材那如果要有多語的這個搭配的話大概又要有其他的規劃來進行那這部分我想會請公視來研議有沒有機會讓它的教案在未來可以有更多語言的搭配使得不同的老師們可以來做使用"},{"start":8120.122,"end":8141.974,"text":"可不可以有一些相關的報告如果演繹的話有個結果的話可以提供給我們辦公室大概多久的時候可以提供呢?我們可以在一個月之內來提供沒問題接下來我們就要來看兒少這一次的節目在徵案的時候招標不順有三個節目目前是沒有招標出去的分別是一個是2345萬的一個是1170萬的節目"},{"start":8146.816,"end":8163.533,"text":"那其中就是說其實兒少版的留言追追追啊其實是一個我們在報告裡面說是IP的一個節目那我就很想知道一個IP節目為什麼我們會招標不出去是預算不夠嗎因為他預算好像跟別人比起來比較低還是說我們現在廠商的量能不足"},{"start":8164.574,"end":8180.106,"text":"其實跟委員剛剛其實已經有說出真實的情況大概有兩個部分第一個就是台灣整體的市場上的量呢其實製作沒有這麼多製作所謂的兒少飲適應的在目前為止其實還沒有培育出這麼多的團隊那第二個就是說在經驗上面這個因為"},{"start":8181.147,"end":8196.345,"text":"的節目形態很多是比較有創新的類型像新住民母語的學習啊好像這一類比較是創新的做法所以也未見得他們有經驗那但是因為對公視來說接下來還是會用其他的方法來進行不管是說跟業界來做討論來做"},{"start":8198.807,"end":8201.888,"text":"公視會透過跟產業界的這個互動之後來做進一步的規劃那像至少在新住民的母語學習這一個公視就用自製的方式先來彌補在這一段時間裡面希望有新的不同族群的語言發音的兒少節目"},{"start":8223.397,"end":8223.757,"text":"我想這個公視的報告說明"},{"start":8239.566,"end":8240.167,"text":"自治和合資的方式來補足"},{"start":8254.266,"end":8281.087,"text":"好 那我想要再追問一個就是說我看到一個得標廠商是風采這個公司他過去其實做偶像劇的那他現在得標的是叫做親子的棚內談話節目所以我就會很好奇啊像他這樣子一個廠商沒有兒少遊戲沒有兒少節目經驗的他要如何來做這樣子的一個節目因為這個其實不是說把來賓換成大人跟小孩就可以就是一個屬於兒少的節目所以這個部分我覺得可能"},{"start":8281.667,"end":8285.212,"text":"我想這聽起來公視要去協調來輔導這些廠商的壓力應該是非常沉重所以我覺得這個部分我們可能要來再做一些不同的思考就是說因為剛有提到合制啦所以我覺得這部分可能也是一個"},{"start":8297.31,"end":8314.848,"text":"如果我們全部都要自己來協調製作我覺得8月一定會來不及所以合制也許是一個我們要思考的方向那所以我想要再問更細節的部分就是說就是自製到底有多少多少是來自於採購我現在在報告裡面是沒有看到但是在2017年的研究裡面是有發現我們自製的節目是過少的"},{"start":8316.178,"end":8344.037,"text":"所以這個部分因為我們既然講人才富裕所以這個部分一定要達到某一個比例那再來就是說自己自製新節目的時候呢是不是有一些時數的限制畢竟如果重複一直播舊的也不是一件好事啦所以這是不是有相關的規定第三個就是回到剛剛講的我們如果都直接扣過我們自己協調製作我們是不是可以用另外一個方式來做前測呢它可能我們有一些腳本我們可以先找兒少來評估來做前測來確認這個方向是他喜歡的調整好之後我們再開始做做自製"},{"start":8344.939,"end":8346.586,"text":"這三件事情是我們目前有相關的規劃嗎?"},{"start":8348.383,"end":8351.045,"text":"聽起來好像已經有詳細的規劃,這些詳細的規劃是不是也可以在兩個禮拜送到我們辦公室?"},{"start":8376.704,"end":8393.422,"text":"好 沒有問題謝謝那再來就是說其實我自己是非常喜歡看兒少節目所以我不知道次長跟董事長有沒有看過這兩個節目因為像海洋日記其實是你們自己過去跟民間合制嘛那這兩個產品作品都得到了德國慕尼黑國際兒少雙年展"},{"start":8394.162,"end":8422.121,"text":"甚至也有得到美國內華達成的野生動物及風景電影節最佳兒童影片所以這兩個其實都是蠻不錯的一個作品所以我會希望就是說因為我看到你們的計畫也有說要跟富邦文教基金會來去做合作那我不太確定現在規劃的一個跟他們洽談的一個時程是什麼因為我覺得這都是兩個已經在網路上面評價也都不錯的一個節目我們是不是可以讓他持續的來發展而且他也強調是台灣的山海的一個教育這部分是不是有比較詳細的已經進行的一個時程呢"},{"start":8424.882,"end":8447.052,"text":"我們跟富邦文教基金會以及其他的民間過去有這類經驗的都在進行討論那富邦的部分我們前一段時間也進行了一些討論但是具體的部分是不是請說明一下其實富邦文教基金會它是一直在做兒少IP賦育的這個計畫那其實它賦育出來很好的IP我們就會一起跟他合作把它做成節目"},{"start":8447.552,"end":8468.465,"text":"這是我們現在一直持續在進行的所以除了這個之外我們後續還有新的節目可以推出所以目前已經跟對方聯繫了嗎對 是的因為我收到的資訊好像不是這樣所以這個我們會後詳細討論好不好那再來就是說我希望就是因為要做得上節目我只有靠公視自己真的是太辛苦了所以我們一定要做到公視協力這件事情"},{"start":8469.485,"end":8498.107,"text":"再來我最後的一個建議是說我們兒少台節目製作的建議一定要有一定程度比例的外部兒少的專業團體來參與前面的內部發想參與前面的測試再來就是說我們當然現在可能沒有那麼多廠商但是我覺得就是我們如果可以讓有更多的兒少專家在民間團體和民間團體的諮詢參與我們其實就能夠把關這個品質是不是符合兒少的需求因為畢竟六億不是小錢我們要照顧到兒童我們還是要回應到是不是他們的喜好"},{"start":8499.638,"end":8523.81,"text":"那抱歉我再用最後一分鐘講一件事情就是說我想我們台灣人所有人集體的共識對於228的一個態度應該都是一個悲傷而且緬懷而且沉痛反思的一個態度我相信次長應該是非常認同這是我看到我現在只要搜尋228我們搜尋到的相關報導都是在紀念"},{"start":8524.83,"end":8551.444,"text":"但是呢 那再加上我們其實有非常多的 過半的民眾其實也是支持這個所謂的轉型正義喔但是我看到TimePlus在連續兩年的228都在做蔣介石的legacy我當然認為就是說 我們要去來討論蔣介石的一個公與過 不是不可以但是我們要在228這一天做這件事情嗎"},{"start":8552.915,"end":8552.955,"text":"我想..."},{"start":8581.221,"end":8610.018,"text":"面對台灣的歷史是所有台灣人共同的責任跟義務那尤其透過這些紀念目的不只是悲傷更重要的事情是獲得前進跟堅決支持民主的力量所以究竟在整個國際的媒體呈現上台灣要呈現什麼樣的國際面貌我想讓公視台灣plus有更深層的思考根據台灣主體性的思考我想這是必要的所以我想這些內容我們就讓台灣plus來做"},{"start":8611.38,"end":8611.921,"text":"台灣Plus"},{"start":8622.142,"end":8648.333,"text":"跟委員報告我們大概統計了一下從開台到現在針對轉型正義做的大概55則相關的新聞跟報導那麼委員所談的這個部分我們相關的部分我們後續會做檢討再跟您提出報告沒有問題對因為我想這個重點是說我們當然平常都有做很多轉型正義可是我們在228這一天耶這天做這件事情是不恰當的吧市長你同意嗎?董事長你同意嗎?"},{"start":8649.599,"end":8650.659,"text":"好,那我就等公視提供給我的報告,謝謝"},{"start":8669.428,"end":8669.448,"text":"蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":8698.787,"end":8700.55,"text":"有請引進委員請王次長跟胡董事長有請次長跟董事長委員好次長好"},{"start":8714.626,"end":8729.606,"text":"兒童權利公約第17條提到就是說我們必須鼓勵大眾媒體直播無論在社會或文化對兒童有益的資訊那這些資訊當然包括所屬文化"},{"start":8730.287,"end":8731.808,"text":"首先文化部在報告中有提到"},{"start":8756.59,"end":8777.871,"text":"公視的捐贈經費從9億元增加到2、3億中間有6億會用在兒少節目上可是我們翻看預算書來看這個數字好像沒有那麼精確預算書寫著這6億是來自黑潮計畫的挹注那一部分是辦理台灣兒少原生"},{"start":8779.452,"end":8807.828,"text":"內容跟節目的直播那可是一部分要用在提升台灣原創動畫內容直播的量能還有一部分是要用在開發跟賦予台灣原生內容跟劇本那好 那顯然兒少節目在這個直播的規模就不會達到6億那這6億當然也不是全部用在兒少的服務上所以可不可以請次長說明一下那兒少節目究竟佔了多少預算"},{"start":8808.388,"end":8830.043,"text":"那我們要用這樣的預算做哪些工作?謝謝委員的垂詢那因為整個兒少影視映的製作它是一個整體環境那台灣以現在的兒少影視映環境來說是先天就不足那目前也算後天失調因為六一也實在是算上是一個非常充足的經費那所以在整個兒少的過程裡面它包括開發、孵育、產製"},{"start":8832.444,"end":8833.405,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":8850.377,"end":8866.603,"text":"現在第一階段如果能有原生的比例指的是台灣自己的IP原始的產制這是最好但是即使沒有我們有退而求其次就是跟其他的IP來做合作或者是更退而求其次把其他的IP做台灣的台語的語言的配音大概有幾個不同的策略來"},{"start":8868.104,"end":8895.131,"text":"整體性的強化提升整個兒少在影星市場上的整個的量能因為如果現在最大的問題是其實你看不到台灣自己自製的兒少節目才是核心的問題因為大概九成以上都是所謂外來的或者是外購的這個節目所以他在策略上會有這樣的一個差異所以雖然委員看到的是說在整體的經費配置上似乎沒有全部用在兒少頻道但是他指的是在整個環境裡面你還是要把整個環境的調整"},{"start":8897.512,"end":8897.732,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8915.879,"end":8932.637,"text":"⋯⋯"},{"start":8932.977,"end":8961.094,"text":"接下來想請教董事長就是說未來我們轉型這個兒少頻道我們站在公視3台可是公視3台有個根本的問題就是民眾找不到它在哪裡公視3台它這個區塊在挑戰民眾使用遙控器的習慣因為它幾乎被排在一兩百號的位置根據各地的這個系統台不同你就是像現在在這裡在中正區它的這個遙控器要輸幾號你知道嗎"},{"start":8962.366,"end":8990.105,"text":"公視三台139那各地又不同所以我想這個是一個很嚴肅的問題啦齁那我們既然要推廣那我們就要養成民眾收視的習慣你要讓他習慣知道按幾台阿第八幾台我想那是沒人會伺候下去所以是不是有沒有辦法努力讓這個頻道固定起來而且可以啦位置擺前面一點就跟公視家族擺在一起你覺得勒?"},{"start":8991.893,"end":9007.003,"text":"謝謝委員的關注,我們也覺得這個是非常大的問題,因為我們有100多,而且沒有定評,那我們現在有跟系統業者也跟NCC來請教跟協調,不過好像到目前為止他們仍然認為在法律上的規定"},{"start":9008.39,"end":9009.191,"text":"好 那這部分再努力一下"},{"start":9023.823,"end":9028.547,"text":"吳佩玉委員提到我們在說經費的問題你看日本NHK 1900多億BBC也1800多億韓國的KBS也329億當然看我們自己我們覺得說我們真的是少之又少我們在羨慕別人的公共"},{"start":9046.059,"end":9065.428,"text":"媒體的成就的時候我們要反思說我們自己我們自己投資了多少雖然放寬了從9億到23億可是相較還是很拮据那其中一個最大的障礙就公廣集團最大的障礙我覺得華視的定位還是一個很麻煩的地方喔"},{"start":9065.988,"end":9092.383,"text":"好 那根據這個針對這個華視這個民股買回或者是資產活化或者是負負擔捐贈這個問題其實我從一路從文化部前部長李永德問到現任的部長史哲那去年4月我們公共電視法也睽違了13年首度來這個修正討論那除了我有自己的提案版本以外在修法過程中我有提那個"},{"start":9093.484,"end":9109.719,"text":"修正動議試著要將負負擔捐贈的機制納入公共電視法當中當時史哲部長是說我們希望是兩階段來修法優先處理沒有爭議的公視9億這個捐贈上限的問題再來我們再來討論華視的困境怎麼解決公視法三讀也"},{"start":9116.445,"end":9144.871,"text":"快一年囉那我想要請教次長這個修法的過程中說要日後再來探討華氏的困境那現在有什麼樣的進度嗎那再請董事長說明作為一個經營者對於華氏這種不公不明的狀態那持續也不能落實這個負擔捐贈的這個過程還有資產活化那對於華氏營運當然非常有影響那怎麼突破這樣的困境你怎麼看"},{"start":9145.451,"end":9160.726,"text":"先請次長回答先跟委員說明第一就是說現在華視的定位它其實仍然要定位成一個商業電視台雖然公視的持股有超過八成那所以也就是說在所謂的公共性上跟這個民間"},{"start":9161.667,"end":9188.915,"text":"商業經營的利益商人他還是要取得一個橫頻那之所以沒有在進行這所謂民股買回的這件事的關鍵仍然是因為在現有的法制上你沒有辦法強制民股賣出那如果沒有這個法規的情況下呢你就會陷入一個很難進行溢價跟以政府預算來執行的一個困境那所以我們現在比較重要的事情是那如何讓華視在現有因為如果公視已經有了八成以上的股份他其實是有相對的主導權"},{"start":9189.975,"end":9202.706,"text":"所以現在可以看到我們在很多的節目上不管是補助或者委視華視所以在資源上面其實也給他很大的注意希望使得改善他現在製作的內容的這個狀況來提升他的整體的收視跟營運的狀態那這是現在在文化部裡面所可以先行採取的一些措施"},{"start":9212.792,"end":9231.818,"text":"華視的企業公會上週三有來拜訪他們當然對於華視既然要配合公共化要犧牲一些營收像今年年初的選舉就整個去年一整年他們是沒有辦法收這個所謂的候選人的廣告"},{"start":9233.659,"end":9253.036,"text":"他們又要要求自負盈虧所以長期來其實損失是相當的重大那所以我想說這個部分我有列在這個華氏企業公會的具體的意見我有列在這個PPT上那不曉得請教次長跟董事長究竟能做到多少那怎麼樣解決這部分怎麼處理"},{"start":9255.001,"end":9270.777,"text":"第一是華氏在去年來說在新聞台上的廣告收益其實增加了非常多幾乎是翻倍的增加但是在整體的預算上面我們大概就是像剛剛提到的透過維持跟補助的方法來提升它的內容"},{"start":9271.297,"end":9287.27,"text":"那至於說在接下來他是不是能夠有更開放的營運方式因為他現在有資產文化委員會在進行資產文化的規劃所以我想資產文化的方向跟未來可能可以提升他在營運上的注意可能還是可以透過這個公視的這個整體的規劃來進行"},{"start":9292.834,"end":9317.282,"text":"對於未來的收益來說,我想既然公視的股份是佔8成以上,它還是具有一定的公共性,這一點可能還是華視要有得到一定的認知。了解,不過對於它這樣子,就是說不公不明的感覺,這個當然定位起來是有點困難度,我還覺得這個還是要好好的來研究,那包括負擔捐贈的部分,到底要不要挹注,我覺得這個"},{"start":9318.542,"end":9318.982,"text":"最後請教次長知不知道這個提海燕這部作品"},{"start":9336.152,"end":9357.299,"text":"這次公視2024最新的聚集預計在今年第三季要播出這個聚集其實它受邀在法國的里爾聚集影展舉行全球的首映這是台灣第一次將二戰期間的台籍戰俘監視員這個血淚史推上國際舞台那聽阿黑應這部"},{"start":9358.759,"end":9377.748,"text":"同時也是全亞洲唯一入圍國際全景競賽單元的作品那他這樣的優異的表現讓歐洲的國家對於台灣文化的量能感到相當的驚豔那無論是法國或德國的公視都紛紛表示可以跟台灣來展開合作"},{"start":9380.089,"end":9399.599,"text":"那麼一部大放異彩的這個作品那在籌資的階段卻沒有受到投資者的青睞也沒有入選這個金馬的創投只有公視一路支持喔那好就正如我一開始質詢開頭提到的目前從黑潮計畫一直到公視的經費"},{"start":9400.8,"end":9424.367,"text":"我們只讓公視辦理台灣兒少這個原生內容跟節目的製播還有呼籲戲劇的IP可是我們沒有考量到公視戲劇的製作經費這等於是有點限縮公視本來該發揮的影響力那當然某些題材或許沒有那麼具商業性那某些創作我們或許要走在市場的前端可是這些不以"},{"start":9425.147,"end":9447.518,"text":"賺大錢為核心價值的考量內容本來就是台灣需要的好那如果這些內容公視不做那我們期待有誰來做所以請問次長你是不是認同文化部應該鼓勵並憋戀更多的預算讓公共電視有充分的量人來開發這些優質本土的原創的影視作品"},{"start":9448.478,"end":9475.929,"text":"謝謝委員這麼熟悉公視產出的好的節目那提拉哈彥也跟委員報告其實在青馬創投他2021年是有獲得支持的所以其實青馬創投我們是有支持這部片子那另外委員提到的就是是不是未來要投入更多預算我想這一點是非常支持只要大院可以支持預算的通過我想我們也認為整個投入在台灣這一類公共性的節目的製作跟產出上的確需要更多的資源來做支持好 謝謝次委員"},{"start":9478.4,"end":9478.601,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":9511.989,"end":9512.149,"text":"本集完結"},{"start":9537.114,"end":9539.135,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":9569.551,"end":9571.352,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":9597.469,"end":9598.27,"text":"先讓他去洗吧"},{"start":9616.11,"end":9617.27,"text":"這些人都要來?嗯嗯!"},{"start":9643.592,"end":9648.456,"text":"他已經,他已經博問了,他博問了等一下,他洗手間不是這樣子的啦"},{"start":9668.01,"end":9668.651,"text":"字幕提供"},{"start":9814.031,"end":9816.359,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 我們接下來請吳春成委員"},{"start":9827.329,"end":9840.091,"text":"主席、王執長、胡元輝董事長、文社院蔡董事長主要是要跟大家溝通,因為我們今天談兒少"},{"start":9854.676,"end":9882.715,"text":"不過我要問大家齁這個你知道百分之八十的兒少都誰帶長大的你們有帶過小孩嗎?家裡有小孩嗎?百分之八十的兒少都是誰在當黨?爸爸媽媽還是爺爺奶奶?父母吧父母嗎?唉呦你家是你父母長大的是啊是啊是你的父母還是小孩子的父母?"},{"start":9883.496,"end":9896.08,"text":"你的父母阿公阿嬤帶長大的嘛 對不對我的父母也是他的父母帶長大的阿我的阿公阿嬤帶長大的我這個是根據資料的將近80%大部分的兒童都是爺爺奶奶帶長大"},{"start":9908.797,"end":9911.098,"text":"各位在家庭你知道我們今天談兒少"},{"start":9923.393,"end":9947.373,"text":"因為大家知道我在談壯世代其實你看那個很多我們都不理爸爸不理這些人所以你知道大部分的孩子、兒童到了小學畢業之後就回到父母的身邊然後就遠離了他的爺爺奶奶甚至很多人我們測過對爺爺奶奶認識度只有30分"},{"start":9951.631,"end":9959.404,"text":"爺爺奶奶認識小孫子都有大到80分世代 因為爺爺奶奶落伍了"},{"start":9961.934,"end":9967.477,"text":"文化部想像的高齡社會是什麼?你想像的高齡社會是一個金字塔型的還是一個倒金字塔型?"},{"start":9985.663,"end":9997.232,"text":"我想台灣整體面臨人口老化已經是一個很重要的議題已經是上升到甚至是國安問題我想大家都很瞭解台灣在未來老化的現象會越來越嚴重主力就是高齡者高齡者所有的生產力、消費力"},{"start":10008.16,"end":10029.497,"text":"各方面都是高齡的社會但是我們不曉得文化部在設定文化的時候如何看上面這一層應該是整體啦,整體的人都是文化部的服務對象的確沒有看到你們去年在60歲以上的文化預算只占文化部的0.2%我有去統計"},{"start":10033.704,"end":10053.982,"text":"這一部分 史部長都認同啊所以他為什麼這麼的驚訝我們都在做青年文化在做古蹟文化對於這一塊你只要過60歲包括我們的文化界的人過了一個年齡以後幾乎都是放到倉庫裡面"},{"start":10056.384,"end":10077.027,"text":"這一個裡面的 都有在做 但是比例太少了 不成人口比例 不成人口比例好 謝謝你們現在在做 這個算是在做了嘛 這一個我要請問我們次長 壯世代只剩下鄉土劇可以看嗎"},{"start":10078.424,"end":10079.324,"text":"對,都是可以服務啦,但是你了解嗎?"},{"start":10093.842,"end":10120.828,"text":"瞭解他們的需求嗎?事實上各位在想像的因為這個已經是現在好萊塢都已經發現我剛才講這個不僅是一個說哎呀你這個老人我提供老人服務啦事實上這個是一個很龐大的產業因為壯士在掌握三分之二的財富但是呢剛才才聊天我們所有品牌都要做要品牌年輕化要去老化"},{"start":10122.468,"end":10147.273,"text":"這一塊離得越遠越好那最後一個就做一點那想像不然他們需要什麼你們也不太了解想想應該是鄉土劇吧就把這群人越搞越low你給他文化的一個事實上一個文化歧視對他們是應該什麼都有理論上是這麼應該是他跟其他的年齡層一樣各種的文化媒體都應該可以享受"},{"start":10148.513,"end":10165.796,"text":"你用想像的說孩子看的他們也是可以看年輕人看的他們也可以看所以不需要為他們而特別看嘛這是做一個特別的那全世界一家你有需要做客家文化你有需要原住民文化反正都是人嘛人可以看的東西他都可以看是這個意思嗎"},{"start":10166.793,"end":10191.309,"text":"市場的需求當然還是依據不同的需求來進行不要講這個就是沒有做啦就是非常的偏廢嘛就是這事實上都這樣子不要再用這一個你知道他們的需求嗎這個重視在很多的元朦我希望這個教育文化部好好地去研究他們的文化需求剛才講那個說法實在是太普遍太廣泛論的"},{"start":10192.89,"end":10200.861,"text":"基本上沒有真正了解他們你看高興子的看電視的一個動機第一點就是知道各地新聞消息"},{"start":10201.994,"end":10230.2,"text":"有滿足他們所關心你知道每一個跟不同人所關注的東西不一樣的你知道他們關注什麼嗎?第二個是知道有用的生活常識技能87%那我們在現在的這節目當中針對這一群讓他們所關注只是關注健康嗎?資訊嗎?你認為你有做一些高齡者的養生啊保健啊這個就是對對對你覺得這樣子就是有在關心他們啊"},{"start":10230.68,"end":10232.382,"text":"我來自行銷界,行銷廣告人不會做60歲以上的廣告"},{"start":10254.102,"end":10272.633,"text":"所以企業當中針對60歲以上投放廣告只佔它行銷費用的5%基本上是放棄這塊市場這塊市場掌握三分之的財富結果企業都不想賺它的錢這一個公視呢接下來我也請胡董事長來問一下公視的問題"},{"start":10275.626,"end":10288.943,"text":"公視主要的收視群都應該是年齡比較偏高,55家以上。我想公視可以再進一步去了解這些需求。"},{"start":10291.446,"end":10310.402,"text":"我提供一個,就荷蘭有一個MASS的電視台,它也是公視,荷蘭的公視,他們特別做一個50家的專屬的節目,那這個節目後來成為非常熱門,我不曉得你們了不了解,知不知道這個,那成為連著度非常高的首領社群,"},{"start":10311.618,"end":10327.385,"text":"那這個首種社群他們在意的不是省錢很多人認為說他們省吃減用不花錢所以沒有這個產業事實上不是而是他們重視的是怎麼把錢花得有意義但是大家不知道他們的意義是什麼"},{"start":10328.766,"end":10345.351,"text":"所以我們目前所看到的公視還是引發照顧、養生你所想像的還是老人的這些需求那比較未來希望能夠以這個為典範多增加在社會參與的部分"},{"start":10350.194,"end":10362.493,"text":"最後我也要請我們蔡董事長文策院因為這是我們史德部長上次又來答覆我這答覆他交辦的都是文策院不曉得你有沒有收到這份公文"},{"start":10365.1,"end":10383.155,"text":"有,那個報告委員齁除了公文有受到之外其實上次去你辦公室也聽你分享了很多壯世代這個議題齁那回溫測驗之後其實我們也跟相關的主管有開了針對壯世代這樣的一個內容投資的一個計畫那近期希望再有機會去拜訪委員聽取委員更多更專業的意見"},{"start":10384.876,"end":10405.884,"text":"好 謝謝所以很感謝就是因為這個太重要了那部長就是他回覆我的文章是要會納入壯賽的文化需求的更進一步深入的了解第二個也要請文策院去規劃發展臺灣高齡文化產業這部分的計畫那所以期待你的下一步的消息"},{"start":10407.045,"end":10427.626,"text":"最後我要對公視,公視是不是可以兩個月之內提出來深入調查?市長,剛才我知道你去GPT去看,你只要輸入高齡者的需求,其實跑出來的都是引髮族的需求。"},{"start":10428.246,"end":10428.927,"text":"我們要深度……"},{"start":10449.887,"end":10466.096,"text":"所以我要請公視是不是針對50家的收視行為節目需求能夠提出報告然後也可以追規劃參考荷蘭的這個規劃壯實在節目頻道計畫不曉得公視可不可以啊那個次長認不認同知不支持"},{"start":10466.656,"end":10481.791,"text":"第一個就是針對壯士代的這個節目需求跟他節目內容規劃我想這個公視應該是可以來繼續來做我們也文化部也會針對這個壯士代的需求來提供的藝文的服務來做延期跟提供那第二個就是說要針對55家的這個收視行為跟節目需求報告"},{"start":10485.595,"end":10501.093,"text":"我是建議是這樣因為我們如果要做這一類的收視行為調查它通常需要的時間的軸距比較長是不是不要限制公視兩個月是不是譬如讓他們一季或者半年之後才可以有一個比較像是收視調查的會比較接近真實的結果"},{"start":10504.419,"end":10520.375,"text":"市長是支持文化部支持吳董事長你可以嗎?我們努力因為目前來講本身有做一些收視的調查另外我們知道一些廣告公司跟傳播業有做我們可以整合這個部分來做一些處理"},{"start":10520.956,"end":10521.116,"text":"謝謝主席"},{"start":10546.89,"end":10549.173,"text":"次長請回接下來我們請葉元芝委員有請次長"},{"start":10564.179,"end":10592.578,"text":"市長好今天我們是針對公視兒少台的討論那基本上我們國家其實對於比如說衛星頻道都有一定的規範我現在就針對頻道的經營這方面來跟市長來請教第一個我們一般來說我們對頻道我們都要求他的自製率第二個我們要求他的首播或重播率我不知道說公視他成立這個兒童台因為我看到大概是要製作200多個小時那200多個小時是可以撐起一個頻道嗎"},{"start":10594.039,"end":10620.546,"text":"因為理論上200多個小時一天如果你是24小時的話大概你的節目如果都沒有重播的話大概就只能播10天左右所以你們現在節目的安排是怎麼樣會不會造成重播率非常高跟委員說明他其實是新制是600多小時不是200多小時他應該之前提供的資料的計算基礎有一些落差我是按照你們提供的資料捏是是因為那個提供資料的計算基礎"},{"start":10621.539,"end":10634.453,"text":"所以是兩百多小時還是六百多小時?六百多小時那六百多個小時他是重播率跟首播重播比例是怎樣?讓公視來說明他的比例"},{"start":10636.192,"end":10665.151,"text":"其實我們新制首播是600多小時但是我們一天大概只有4個小時是當日首播它是要必須輪播就是說一天是4個小時的首播但是我們是播20小時所以另外幾個時段是重播那4小時的節目所以首播是只有4小時是首播20小時是重播現在其實就當日的重播就是當日節目的重播"},{"start":10667.204,"end":10694.17,"text":"所以實際上以你們現在這種首播跟重播率如果按照我們政府對於衛星頻道的管制是還蠻差的再來第二個我們看到你們報告裡面有提到說台灣是多語國家總共有28個南島語言那按照你這邊寫的光是新住民母語就超過30種"},{"start":10695.714,"end":10722.79,"text":"那這麼多語言的情況之下你要讓這些兒童接觸到這些語言請問一下你會以哪些語言為主然後時間上怎麼分配我們每一天有一個母語的時段每一天一個時段對每一天有個時段就是有個帶狀那這個帶狀呢我們會分台語的節目、客語節目、原住民的節目混在一起就是一條帶狀每一天是不同的語種"},{"start":10724.045,"end":10744.4,"text":"每一天不同的語種那這樣有辦法達到你講的效果嗎因為你現在講的一副就是你們公視要成為推廣多種語言的一個非常重要的平台但是在這麼少的時數的情況之下有辦法達到你的效果嗎不要好像做好像那種就是點水式蜻蜓點水啊好像為了做而做"},{"start":10745.06,"end":10746.9,"text":"那你的那個KPI怎麼計算?就是說你們要達到什麼樣的效果,你們花這個錢做這個才值得?"},{"start":10769.625,"end":10781.444,"text":"其實跟委員說明,現在其實單一頻道的經營未來會漸漸不會是最後的主流所以現在在選台式的,就是選看式的這些平台的經營你回答我的問題嘛,針對我的問題回答嘛"},{"start":10783.922,"end":10812.331,"text":"你的KPI怎麼算嘛?就是你現在花這個錢做這件事情怎麼樣達到你語言推廣你是怎麼去去衡量你的效果我們現在兩個方向第一個當然就是他的新制節目的成長因為以如果以112年到113年的成長來說節目的成長是你花錢做節目我的意思是說就推廣的這一塊因為你做這個節目應該目的是希望年輕人可以小朋友可以接觸嘛進而去接觸這個語言那你的KPI是怎麼算第二個就是流量的部分收視的部分"},{"start":10812.751,"end":10837.222,"text":"流量?網路嗎?網路來計算嗎?那你希望收視跟流量達到多少?我們有請公視提供一個他們的評估的…你先回答我嘛,不然你不能回答就叫公視回答啊公視現在提出來的計畫是成長30%以上成長30%?那是以什麼為基礎?以之前就是成立兒少頻道之前"},{"start":10837.867,"end":10841.15,"text":"成立兒少頻道之前那基礎裡面沒有具體的數據嘛我們問的東西都好像都愛講不講的這樣現在是大家針對因為這錢花的我們要看到效果嘛對不對又不是說不支持你們但是你們連一個KPI又講不清楚要怎麼支持然後再來齁"},{"start":10857.885,"end":10869.57,"text":"我們現在因為少子化關係所以兒童市場其實也萎縮啦我們現在所謂的兒童的頻道大概就有八個兩個是自製頻道MOMO跟東森那現在公視又要投入這個市場那實際上"},{"start":10873.231,"end":10887.303,"text":"你是會不會其實你就是在既有的市場去跟人家搶還是說你有拓展市場這也是你們要考量一個問題喔我請教一下喔請問一下你們以過去的經驗來說你投資的最旗艦的節目是花多少錢是哪個節目委員主要關心的是經費嗎製作規模或是經費的話應該是邀國小學堂蛤邀國小學好那花多少錢經費的部分製作規模"},{"start":10903.806,"end":10906.248,"text":"每集是180萬 總共幾集?總共現在做了13集 請問投資報酬率?"},{"start":10915.196,"end":10917.777,"text":"所以我覺得為什麼我們會問這些問題我不希望說公視為了做而做因為當初公視有三個頻道現在要把一個頻道拿來做兒少節目"},{"start":10944.673,"end":10959.283,"text":"那是不是因為說也不知道幹嘛就來做兒少到底有沒有評估過這個東西到底值不值得做那現在既有的市場已經都有那麼多頻道你現在做這個東西你是不是只是去跟人家競爭還包括就是說你們提到說要培養人才"},{"start":10960.023,"end":10988.032,"text":"就是說透過這個機會去培養製作人才那現在的民間也有很多頻道在做這個事啊所以你是不是只是排擠既有的人才啊所以我覺得這些問題都是你必須要考慮的然後再一個點就是我現在公視拍了很多有質感的節目重點是要有人看啊那你們對於你們的推廣我不知道你的規劃是什麼而且現在不是說只有國內的市場嘛應該是國際的市場也非常重要海外推廣有相關的規劃嗎"},{"start":10989.346,"end":11009.322,"text":"跟委員做說明公視來做兒少頻道跟兒少節目最核心的關鍵是臺灣要有自己的兒童節目那現在雖然民間的頻道也有但是九成以上都是國外外購的兒少節目所以我們希望臺灣的小朋友有機會看到自己的內容沒有我剛剛就舉了嘛兩個像Momo或東森他們也都很多是自製的頻道啊自製的節目啊"},{"start":11009.962,"end":11025.95,"text":"如果依照統計的數據來看,九成以上其實都是外購的所以你希望說培養國內的人才嗎?包括國內的人才跟國內的節目那國內的人才的部分那所以就是海外這塊你就放棄是不是?當然不是對嘛,所以我現在在問海外規劃嘛"},{"start":11027.793,"end":11050.732,"text":"在國際的部分海外的規劃包括跟其他平台業者的合作跟上架我想接下來也是公視努力的目標那至於說它的國際的規劃的詳細內容我們可以提供給委員然後再來我聽說公視有在有一個標案是做logo的然後總共花上千萬做logo有沒有這件事情"},{"start":11053.247,"end":11066.785,"text":"來請上千萬找了一個廠商就是請他規劃公視兒少台logo然後是沒有上網招標的有這件事情嗎?是 這個是用腰按的它是金馬的這個整個視覺包裝的這家公司是什麼廠商?"},{"start":11069.539,"end":11070.16,"text":"誰來判斷他的資歷跟經歷?"},{"start":11090.482,"end":11116.054,"text":"因為他其實他過去都是做金馬獎的整體視覺其實我們看他的成果是非常好的所以也希望就是經過我們跟他討論好那你把細項到底一千萬是怎麼分配好不好什麼樣的logo要花到一千萬我非常好奇然後還有一個標案叫做美國關鍵意見領袖合作案大概花了350萬這個是要找美國網紅合作是不是"},{"start":11120.868,"end":11140.667,"text":"美國關鍵意見領袖合作案這是什麼?這個不是兒少頻道對嘛公視的那是什麼?那個應該是台灣plus這是什麼?在我的印象裡面跟委員說明他應該是台灣plus來了解國際行銷的一個好那請問一下你們找了哪些美國關鍵意見領袖"},{"start":11143.912,"end":11155.877,"text":"因為今天台長沒有來所以董事長知道這個案子嗎我覺得你們的標案有很多都很奇怪然後講到台灣Plus台灣Plus的FB有22萬人的追蹤"},{"start":11157.483,"end":11184.2,"text":"然後但是我們去看他的這個臉書的貼文有的最高一篇現在就大概200個按讚然後台灣Plus APP當初大家說下載要到100萬現在也只有15萬可見公視在推廣上面如果你們錢像剛剛舉的標案都是我覺得很奇怪的啦那錢有沒有亂花這我們持續會追啦然後再來是現在既有答應立法院要做的推廣像台灣Plus APP要求100萬現在只有15萬"},{"start":11186.348,"end":11198.678,"text":"所以我的意思是說公視花那麼多錢做這麼多東西如果只是自己做開心的啦就是沒有達到效果啦請你們要針對我剛剛講的這些問題檢討一下然後最好是給我一個報告好不好剛剛講的那些問題啦剛剛講的那些問題啦好 謝謝好 謝謝謝謝葉元之委員次長請回好 我們接下來請陳培宇委員"},{"start":11220.779,"end":11238.167,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請次長還有董事長 謝謝好 有請王次長還有吳董事長 謝謝委員好好 次長好我很多事情要問之前我想先給公視一個非常非常棒的肯定而且可能大家都沒有注意到這個節目 來下一頁"},{"start":11240.189,"end":11256.668,"text":"這個節目非常好看《女孩上場2》是在課宇台播出這裡面不是只有講課宇這件事情令人感到亮眼而是這裡面它讓大量的女性運動員直接上場演出而且這裡面還直指了非常多我們在教育文化委員會一直關心的體談的狀況包含"},{"start":11258.911,"end":11259.451,"text":"我想先問一個題目來下一頁"},{"start":11286.356,"end":11312.816,"text":"請問兒少就次長或者是董事長在你們的心中兒少是0歲到幾歲以目前公視的規劃來說其實是0到18歲18歲這是公視的規劃但是有分不同層那我們一般做兒少節目的統計大概就到12歲對沒錯這是最大的問題就是大部分在製作兒少節目的人不管是剛剛張阿玲委員問的他們可能過往是做成人節目或者是你現在問現場的每一個大人到底對兒少的想像是到幾歲大部分人真的都到12歲"},{"start":11313.817,"end":11314.578,"text":"關於教育部與衛福部的對話﹖孩子們的自殺死因﹖"},{"start":11333.01,"end":11360.128,"text":"有非常非常多專家都告訴我們現在這個世代的大人其實對數位世代的兒童是非常非常非常陌生的所以如果用這個認知來往下看來下一頁我們想要快速跟董事長也跟次長討論我們如何回到一個全然去觀看兒童認識兒童的角度來看所有後續你們還要爭案的節目還要製作的節目來下一頁我們之前一直在跟公視談產業領頭羊這件事情我們也非常感謝在史部長任內"},{"start":11363.33,"end":11367.151,"text":"可是剛剛有一句話葉委員沒有讓次長講完我這邊想要請教次長剛剛您說現在單台的頻道這個並不是趨勢後續要怎麼發展因為剛剛葉委員沒有讓您講完我想要聽聽看次長您的看法應該是經營多平台因為看起來整體的收視習慣鎖定在單一的電視頻道的習慣確實是困難的"},{"start":11387.057,"end":11413.752,"text":"對沒錯連BBC都把他們自己的兒童節目下架他們只放在網路上所以我相信我們台灣做這個決定可能是彌補過去我們來不及做的事情可是我覺得次長你已經講到關鍵我相信後續很多委員的關心也會放在這裡多頻道的這件事情上那我們往下看喔我們來看到關於自治這件事情其實剛剛在你們給我們的報告你們說要調整嘛變成600多個小時我們之前一直跟公共電視提到這件事情來下一頁"},{"start":11414.813,"end":11443.436,"text":"我們看到一個很大的問題這個是我們跟你們索資然後你們在3月7號提供給我們你們113年兒少內容產製及平台工作計畫你們給我們的報告裡面告訴我們你們預計要產製362個小時可是我們看整個小公視的計畫他其實一年365天一天20個小時總計7300個小時如同剛剛次長說的他在首播之後一直重播一直重播一直重播這也是其他單台的狀態我們可以想像所以我們來看第一年"},{"start":11444.156,"end":11459.224,"text":"字字節目只佔總時數的4.95%不到5%可是我剛剛說你說是600多個小時那就是不到10%可是再扣掉重播那我們可以想見這個數字其實國人是不會滿意的怎麼說我們來看下一頁"},{"start":11461.4,"end":11475.15,"text":"在1月29日公視徵案完畢以後一樣是公視給我們的資料你們告訴我們現在實際已經徵案並且成功發出案子沒有廢標的案子目前是104.5小時一樣回到小公視的整個時數不到3%不到2%"},{"start":11477.472,"end":11494.144,"text":"我們當然知道有重播這個的需求然後首播完之後可是我們還是覺得這個四次節目的量能一定出現了問題一定就大家看到因為大家都一直罵6億6億這件事情可是我們幫你們把成本結構看完其實放在製作節目大概只有4億多我應該沒有記錯 對嗎"},{"start":11496.6,"end":11516.757,"text":"施易多施易多來看應該後續還有很多新的節目要開案對嗎還包含你們把三個節目包含有一個越南語的節目然後還有一個什麼節目廢標你們後續要自治對不對所以我相信你們還會買外片也就是說買外片這件事情我覺得大家都可以理解也可以想像畢竟在第一年這麼快的時間內要壓縮出"},{"start":11519.319,"end":11519.459,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":11544.776,"end":11569.506,"text":"如果讓圓餅圖來表現這個7300個小時至於已經整個目前才1.4然後你們目前開出來的預計時數也才4.7%下一頁所以對我們來說公視可不可以更積極的告訴國人我們這個4億多的製作經費未來將提供更多製作節目這件事情我們有多少的人力提升多少的預算投入多少的比例然後我們預計達到多少績效"},{"start":11570.814,"end":11597.544,"text":"我想公視應該可以提供這樣子的報告給委員參考那我們是壓一個月內有機會嗎一個月內所以包含把今年度所有的節目那有機會到來年的規劃嗎來年的規劃是不是在給公視比較長的時間好那我們就一個月內希望可以收到今年度的規劃節目報告可以嗎好那我相信是所有教文委員會不是只有我們辦公室我相信所有教文化委員會的委員都會關心好來下一個"},{"start":11599.228,"end":11617.106,"text":"再來就關於人才培育的部分來下一頁我們在你們的報告裡面我們先說去年10月非常感謝還有林楚瑛委員還有陳廷飛委員我們一起辦了座談會公視有派人出席嗎我有點忘記了有非常多產業界的人在提出來關於人才培育這件事情"},{"start":11617.546,"end":11639.733,"text":"在你們給我們的報告裡面來往下在你們給我們回覆辦公室的報告裡面你們說你們確實在兒童台會做兒少影音人才培育計畫這是你們的回覆我們來看一下你們說要提供有心實作的工作機會還要跟公視資深的兒少製作人員從實務中學習還要結合研習還要施法慕尼黑雙年影展國際性觀摩經驗還要策劃工作方觀影研究引進這麼多這麼多我想問一下這個實際的人才培育"},{"start":11646.175,"end":11646.235,"text":"蘇珊珊"},{"start":11676.015,"end":11693.063,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":11693.223,"end":11708.35,"text":"如何藉由兒童台開台這件事情把台灣有機會有量能有能力做兒童節目的人拉在一起所以我們很想問這些事情但是我現在投影片上寫的其實是你們提供給我們的資料可是我剛說我們其實看不到更多具體的細部規劃"},{"start":11710.071,"end":11711.392,"text":"沒錯沒錯,我們等一下會談到其他頻道也是有這個"},{"start":11737.952,"end":11738.252,"text":"我們這期的公視來做提出"},{"start":11760.876,"end":11779.446,"text":"有沒有機會一個月內給我們相關報告就目前的規劃既然你們有節目製作量能的規劃有機會在一個月內完成那既然有節目製作量能那人才培育量能應該要搭配並行如同剛剛次長說的人才培育是跟著節目實作不是嗎是好那一個月內好那一樣麻煩提供給教育文化委員會好下一頁"},{"start":11781.208,"end":11799.805,"text":"公視在報告裡面還提到要做多元語言節目這件事情我們來看一下這個是我們調出不同台就是台語台客家台的兒少節目我們來看下一頁相關的時數我們可以看得出來客家電視台近三年的產製其實已經非常非常辛苦了再來下一頁"},{"start":11800.606,"end":11821.586,"text":"再來看到那你們告訴我們說你們預計禮拜一到禮拜五的帶狀節目會去拿課台、台語台、原民台四台合制的節目來做所謂多元語言節目的計畫符合可是有沒有機會公視兒童台自己有機會自製自己的兒童節目因為我們可以想像打開課台打開原民台打開台語台的受眾跟專門打開兒童台他絕對不會是同樣的受眾"},{"start":11825.69,"end":11847.076,"text":"有沒有機會為全新的受眾、全新的想像去做專屬於兒童台自己的多元語言節目當然你們還是可以放到課台去播對嗎?還是放到台語台去播有沒有機會是自己製作的公視有自製的計畫包括它現在其實有製作越南語的新著名節目的計畫這個我們也有看到但是因為廢標了嘛公視說要自製嘛對不對60幾集我也看到65集"},{"start":11850.057,"end":11850.837,"text":"今天有委員提出臨時提案議案請宣讀"},{"start":11875.171,"end":11896.047,"text":"放眼國際日元H&K年經費1976億英國BBC1835億韓國KBS329億我國公視所獲捐贈經費雖已由9億提升至23億相較之下仍顯拮据我國公廣集團有許多障礙需一一突破其中華視定位就是目前最大且顯眼的一個"},{"start":11896.967,"end":11920.695,"text":"華氏資產如何活化?負負擔捐贈以及民股買回如何落實?鑒於此些問題存在已久,相關進度卻仍如原地踏步。文化部一於兩個月內提出具體實證計畫並承諾華氏企業工會如下訴求。一、民股買回,落實負負擔捐贈,完成公共化經營定位後,再依據發展需求規劃資產活化是以。二、"},{"start":11923.916,"end":11943.256,"text":"華氏資產應優先應用於本業經營提升節目自治比例資產活化政策規劃應開放員工參與並保障員工工作權資產活化應注重公廣集團形象朝公益教育規劃發展不動產只租不賣租賃對象以影視傳播產業為原則"},{"start":11944.838,"end":11947.841,"text":"好 次長我們希望可以建議修改第二段後面的文字內容"},{"start":11964.79,"end":11966.45,"text":"好,OK那其他會員有沒有意見?好,那沒有意見那我們就修正通過謝謝委員"},{"start":11992.318,"end":11993.439,"text":"請何欣淳委員"},{"start":12014.828,"end":12028.875,"text":"委員好 董事長你好其實我剛剛聽到陳培鈺委員的質詢我關心的跟他也很類似第一個我當然非常支持也非常高興我們這個小公視這個兒少頻道要開台要開始但是關鍵是什麼錢人還有"},{"start":12035.959,"end":12051.37,"text":"我們製作的團隊夠專業我肯定但是呢內容我相信我們之前一直在關心台灣的這個影視音產業最重要是在於內容我們的製作的人才"},{"start":12052.37,"end":12052.41,"text":"主席"},{"start":12070.023,"end":12070.564,"text":"市長有沒有想到這一件事?"},{"start":12092.046,"end":12109.364,"text":"委員說得沒有錯所以第一個就是說公視現在大概是擁有台灣製作兒少影視節目最主要的團隊大家都在公視不管就品質上、內容上、技術上大概都是以公視這個整體的公視集團包括跨語台、台語台、原住民台等是最主要的團隊"},{"start":12110.965,"end":12117.307,"text":"所以由他們的這個技術跟方式來做擴散是我們現在的第一個基礎第二個不是 是跟民間合作我說的擴散指的是第二個就是說跟民間不管是在資金面還是在產製面展開合作這是第二件事情所以他一定要透過民間的力量的引進所以在公視裡面包括現在我們"},{"start":12138.212,"end":12157.822,"text":"希望公視來跟民間合資合智的標準也都已經放寬這是第二件事那第三個就是在開發端那在開發端這一件事上呢我們希望的是跟台灣的IP合作就是說要發展成台灣的影視兒少的影視音節目它其實需要我們有自己的IP那所以民間台灣民間有IP但是IP並未見得會成為動畫啦戲劇啦等等的節目所以在"},{"start":12161.624,"end":12184.372,"text":"台灣自己的人生IP上的合作會是第三個面向第四個面向當然就是所謂的人才富裕就是我們希望透過共治的方式來同步進行人才富裕因為我剛一開始有說到公視現在有點先天不良一開始整個在製作環境上面可以投注在兒少的資源就非常的少那現在即使有了6億其實6億也不算是一個足夠的數字"},{"start":12185.913,"end":12189.235,"text":"我以前就關心過這個議題啊不管是英國的BBC或者是我們其他國家的公視集團台灣的公視算是規模相對的小"},{"start":12208.829,"end":12216.716,"text":"那而且呢也謝謝我們各位委員的支持我們之前修法讓公視公管集團解除了9億的限制沒錯沒錯讓他可以有更多無限的可能那我也希望以這個為利機那現在看到這個兒少的小公司要開台要開頻道"},{"start":12226.824,"end":12253.438,"text":"我們擔心的是什麼資源不夠多那你剛才提到說要跟民間合作那跟民間的合作那邁向國際我相信這也不是只有我們自己台灣自由的IP或者是頻道平台合作還必須要是要邁向國際因為我們現在的孩子坦白說能夠接收到的資訊非常的多元而且接收的管道也非常非常的多那幾乎人手一雞"},{"start":12254.238,"end":12261.988,"text":"那如何的能夠讓孩子在他們生活當中可以接觸到我們公視的這個所謂的小公視兒少頻道而且進一步的能夠吸引到他們來閱聽來收視那個才是重點啊"},{"start":12270.618,"end":12285.028,"text":"是,因為公視今年是第一年我想非常謝謝大院的支持做了修法的這個使得預算可以提高上限那我希望可以給公視機會讓他們一步一步來從這個起步開始能夠累積越來越多的台灣的兒少節目的內容"},{"start":12285.868,"end":12287.389,"text":"委員會提供各級學校的教師,他可能是一個多元的一個兒少節目轉為他豐富的影音的素材可以發展成教案"},{"start":12309.738,"end":12334.115,"text":"現在公視有在提供嘛 對不對 那我們希望它更多元性因為台灣的這個語言文化很多樣化 很多元 那這個多元性再來的國際化再來呢我們更進一步的在這個所謂的一些必須要宣導孩子如何自我保護因為呢最近發生了很多的兒少案件 那孩子自身能不能"},{"start":12334.855,"end":12364.838,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":12364.898,"end":12386.944,"text":"他可以能夠深化、內化成他自己的觀念我覺得這個也是我們必須該做的這些就是兒少影星內容節目的主要目標對,所以我再回到我剛剛一開始講的我們的內容產業我們如何能夠讓它更細緻化、更專業化、更生活化那這個後面就必須要有更多的人"},{"start":12388.104,"end":12390.085,"text":"謝謝何欣淳委員我們再來請鄭天才委員"},{"start":12434.156,"end":12462.693,"text":"各位委員請次長還有胡董事長好請次長跟胡董事長次長好胡董事長好這個今天的專題報告非常好這個文化部還有公共電視也積極的在推動這個計畫所以這裡面今天跨族群、跨平台、跨語言"},{"start":12464.781,"end":12476.71,"text":"當然這個兒少目前對兒少的定義兒童有定義幾歲到幾歲12歲然後少年到未滿18歲所以都有這個所以是這個年齡層也蠻長的所以這個部分在這樣的一個規劃裡面"},{"start":12488.663,"end":12489.043,"text":"以公視目前的規劃來說,我想"},{"start":12504.016,"end":12531.273,"text":"這個小公視已經在開始執行的那個方向是因為8月原則上8月底就要開台所以公視已經在積極的籌備那在開台之前就一定要要開始包括徵案包括自治包括核制大概都在同步進行當中所以公視現在整個團隊在製作壓力上應該也非常的龐大因為一旦開台之後就會面臨全時段的播出的時間那在跨族群的這件事上我想公視現有的規劃裡面除了結合原有的"},{"start":12533.755,"end":12543.706,"text":"臺語台、客語台、原名台之外也包括新住民的語言所以在多族群的多語的這件事上公視在一開始的規劃裡就納入整個在兒少頻道的這個服務的節目計畫裡面"},{"start":12548.359,"end":12567.998,"text":"所以基本上如果從剛才談的包括我們的服務計畫的一個方向是符合公共電視法的整個公視基金會的業務這裡面包含了多元族群的傳播服務"},{"start":12572.106,"end":12598.063,"text":"公共電視法第36條也特別明訂節目自播應該遵守保持多元性積極提供兒童、青少年這樣的一個部分因為這個部分很重要雖然我們一直在談教育部希望能夠去多"},{"start":12599.264,"end":12599.704,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12624.486,"end":12628.05,"text":"對,所以這個部分這樣的一個節目的推出然後再結合現在孩子的習慣"},{"start":12643.972,"end":12672.109,"text":"還青少年的習慣然後能夠我們很希望的救援住民者的立場來講我們很希望就是說因為這樣的推動族群的和諧族群的這個互相尊重就減少族群的歧視是我們也非常希望可以做到因為最近都還是有族群的歧視像這個高中大學"},{"start":12673.861,"end":12683.298,"text":"連東華大學都有啊東華大學最近呢就有族群的歧視這個就是對文化的不了解嘛"},{"start":12684.232,"end":12684.492,"text":"謝謝,謝謝鄭天才委員"},{"start":12711.578,"end":12737.786,"text":"好,我們接下來請麥玉珍委員。謝謝主席。能有請王次長還有公視董事長。好,有請王次長跟胡董事長。委員好。"},{"start":12742.684,"end":12761.093,"text":"我請教一下我們公視今年8月就要創造一個我們的兒少傳播這樣就是我們是感到很開心但是在這個平台及新媒體的服務針對不同的年齡的兒童"},{"start":12763.594,"end":12767.137,"text":"分不同的規劃來製作這樣的節目幫助兒童適應的發展本席非常支持全面升級的保障同時我們也需要思考怎麼樣藉由這樣的平台有那個多元共榮"},{"start":12780.788,"end":12786.071,"text":"文化共榮這樣子的一個平台目前我們在學校上課的新二代我們有40萬人但是就學了29萬多所以我們也希望說透過這個平台讓他有更多不同的頻道來去學習所以我們希望說透過這個頻道增加一些元素就會減少我們的新二代在學校的霸凌"},{"start":12810.063,"end":12836.364,"text":"因為我們是要教小孩有時候很多新住民的媽媽不敢帶小孩到學校進入跟他們一起進入家長會所以呢也導致小孩子失去很多的信心所以我們希望說透過這樣子的多元化讓大家可以再進入這樣子的元素建議兒少在全面的"},{"start":12837.426,"end":12848.001,"text":"價值觀所以要如何選這個題材還有如何選多元的文化讓更多的人可以接受達成共榮"},{"start":12850.858,"end":12877.728,"text":"請教一下委員所說的正是我們現在希望透過公共電視來達到的目標那是特別針對兒少頻道來說公共電視目前的規劃就是會針對分靈提供它不同的節目形態同時呢特別是在語言上跟族群上原上除了台灣已經原本在使用的台語、客語原住民語外還有新住民語所以包括現在公視也有製作自製新住民語節目有65集越南語節目的這個計畫"},{"start":12880.069,"end":12909.834,"text":"目的就是希望可以透過多元的這個節目規劃呢讓族群之間互相理解那只有互相理解才能夠學習互相尊重平等對待所以我想在兒少的頻道上我們希望小朋友從小時候就理解台灣是一個多元文化多元族群的所在那所以大家在這個環境裡面可以適應也可以認識平等對待不同的族群跟使用不同語言的人這個才會是整體對台灣文化能夠提升對文化價值能夠有保障的"},{"start":12910.074,"end":12916.576,"text":"是 是 這個大家都知道就是說關於這樣子啦但是剛才我們前面的委員也有提嘛我們的題材是什麼我們怎麼樣真的達到這樣子的多元文化這個才是我們要的重點因為我們以教育嘛以教育來說的話我們就是要把這樣子不同國家的教育的文化"},{"start":12934.162,"end":12934.622,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12952.449,"end":12968.241,"text":"各國的語言還有就是我們原住民客家語還有新住民語嘛 對不對但是新住民語這個部分剛才我有聽其他委員問的時候有說我們是不同的時段來去播出嘛"},{"start":12968.982,"end":12971.704,"text":"一方面就是說這個節目目前規劃這個帶狀是在8點多啦所以基本上應該還是在兒童可收看的範圍那第二是說其實我們也在平台上架所以它也透過可以去選擇的機制可以去看"},{"start":12995.819,"end":13023.499,"text":"是可以讓說不同的時段我們有選擇的那個時間嗎?我們可以選擇同樣的時段我們可以選擇就是不同的語言嗎?它在網路上架的時候就可以選擇在那個想要收看的時段收看不受限於頻道是在網路嗎?是在電視上就沒有嗎?在網路就是我們心裡是沒有固定的時段固定的時段是中文嘛"},{"start":13024.64,"end":13025.742,"text":"我們現在新住民語的話,我們納入幾種語言?"},{"start":13038.937,"end":13054.211,"text":"目前有越南語已經在製作當中其他大概會持續地進行其他語種的規劃希望就是我們以人數的掙扎幾個語言好不好不要只有越南這樣子的話我就會被其他國家搞怕你越南你就有顧越南"},{"start":13055.632,"end":13055.752,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":13074.927,"end":13101.937,"text":"我們公視裏面現在有就是剛才講說我們有很多不同國家的頻道嘛所以這樣的話我們也可以在這邊的話可以做一點就是增加一點心啦因為我們現在少子的話要生小孩的人就不多啊今天我們就是把一些資源用在我們兒少這邊更多才是真正的我們就是要栽培我們我們下一代啦這個部分說希望說這個部分要"},{"start":13103.277,"end":13104.038,"text":"請胡董事長"},{"start":13135.902,"end":13156.94,"text":"委員好董事長好我想針對公視第3台轉型的部分有問題要請教您那當然就是說如果您的權限無法回答的話也可以再讓我們知道好嗎我想我是非常的樂觀其成就是公視3台轉型為兒少頻道那也很高興文化部的那個黑潮計畫6億元的資金給公視製作兒少節目"},{"start":13161.144,"end":13168.512,"text":"然後很好這是一件非常重要的事因為兒少就是我們國家的未來但是我有點擔心這個轉型會不會排擠到我們原來的藝文跟體育的節目的內容所以想請教董事長的部分"},{"start":13180.963,"end":13205.931,"text":"那想請問一下董事長您知不知道就是我們轉型這個部分是文化藝術這邊體育出了什麼問題還是我們純粹就是要兒少因為公視2022年的年度報告是以第三台是以文化藝術跟國內外的體育賽事為主那這部分公視過去也把自己當作是國內藝術濃度最高最重視文化藝術的電視頻道"},{"start":13207.992,"end":13233.18,"text":"那這個部分有沒有一個檢討報告那有沒有轉型的計畫跟之後文化跟體育方面的比重的討論呢向委員報告就是在做轉型的時候我們做過評估那您關注到這個體育的部分我們第一個我們在主評還是會播那涉及到兒少體育的部分我們也會在公視兒少台裡可以再處理"},{"start":13233.88,"end":13261.09,"text":"那藝文的部分也是一樣我們會在相關的頻道裡面做平衡的處理那特別跟委員報告的是我們在加速數位轉型所以相關的體育跟藝文包括在我們現在的OTT平台公視家還有其他的網路平台包括YouTube等等我們都會來加強做處理這點可以請委員放心所以就是你們未來的這個兒少台本身就不再處理文化跟體育這個部分嗎?"},{"start":13261.99,"end":13280.494,"text":"就是兒少的體育會在兒少台處理,兒少有關的藝文會在兒少頻道其他的部分我們基本上就頻道來講會到公視、主評甚至還有台語台、客家台分別擔負他們在多元文化方面的藝文跟體育的責任"},{"start":13280.694,"end":13305.179,"text":"所以就是只有那個跟兒少相關的文化體育才會留在這個兒少台嘛其他就轉移到別的部分那當然就是說這是你們一個選擇那我想提供一下別的國家的例子那我們辦公室研究就是NHK的他的兒少頻道也播文化節目那體育賽事直播當然你剛講體育賽事的部分有別的頻道這是NHK的部分"},{"start":13306.039,"end":13318.27,"text":"BBC4主要就是藝文的,兒童的部分有CBBC跟CBBICE可是你可以看到在實際的做法上,針對6歲以下兒童的CBBICE"},{"start":13321.272,"end":13325.035,"text":"是跟4名稱上是不一樣但是其實是共享一個頻道的不同時段因為兒少活躍的時間跟成年人不一樣所以兒少活躍的時間就播兒少節目那入夜後就播藝文節目"},{"start":13337.206,"end":13354.553,"text":"這也是一種處理的方式,我想無論是NHK跟BBC,你可以看到他們努力的在有限的頻道裡面同時重視兒少,然後文化跟運動賽事的這些部分並沒有顧此失彼。所以您剛講到好像也沒有顧此失彼。"},{"start":13355.333,"end":13356.013,"text":"請問您是不是有這樣的規劃"},{"start":13373.827,"end":13392.923,"text":"的確沒有在比例上做一定的要求不過在政策方向上是做剛才提到的這樣的一個處理不過我們也內部也在研議是不是跨平台有重要國際賽事的時候我們所有的頻道可能都要做相關的因應處理這點我們也沒有排除在外跟我們報告一下"},{"start":13393.063,"end":13393.103,"text":"主席"},{"start":13415.68,"end":13435.191,"text":"公視是唯一一個能夠以就是不用考慮商業就藝文跟體育的方向能夠讓大家都能夠平等的觀看的那這個部分是不是你們能夠參考國際經驗不管是NHK或者是BBC那往這個方向做一個比例上的規劃然後可以給本席一個報告呢?"},{"start":13435.933,"end":13463.107,"text":"好 我們來處理好 那另外我也想問大家都關心的這個國內外的體育賽事那我是非常的支持我們公視要努力爭取要重要賽事的播映權那公視2016年2021年都有轉播奧運那我們看到新聞就是2024年中華電信取得新媒體轉播權MOD還有這個哈密video可看我想問一下"},{"start":13464.427,"end":13489.718,"text":"2024年公視會不會有相關的合作呢?因為我覺得國人如果可以不用額外付費可以看到我們國家代表隊的重要賽事,非常的重要那可以請問一下公視有沒有這方面的規劃爭取呢?有,跟委員很明確的報告我們2024年的巴黎奧運我們都已經跟相關的單位這個愛爾達做好的討論那我們確定有轉播,而且合約已經簽訂完成"},{"start":13491.514,"end":13519.263,"text":"謝謝所以確定我們不需要付費就可以在公視頻道看到那這是非常重要的好消息那未來也希望是往這個方向好嗎因為公視畢竟是國家的也是全民的那最後呢我也想針對就是國表藝就是文化部國表藝下轄的3個場館每年都有非常多優質的藝文節目那文化部其實有很好的先天條件那可以我們可以爭取把這些表演的線上化"},{"start":13520.103,"end":13520.143,"text":"主席"},{"start":13535.495,"end":13556.767,"text":"您的頻道或者是網路的頻道這個部分喔那如果是能夠因為網路上事實上也有收費的可能性因為我知道有些人會認為說表演節目好像是不應該免費觀看但如果可以處理這相關議題的話那未來是不是能夠爭取部分線上化於公視或是公視plus上面播出呢?"},{"start":13559.271,"end":13571.783,"text":"這個部分我們現在在頻道上面是有固定的時段在處理但是如果線上的部分會涉及到我們的預算跟其他方面的資源不過我們來積極考慮"},{"start":13574.325,"end":13600.224,"text":"謝謝希望你們積極規劃一下因為我覺得這部分也非常的重要而且是公視最有責任就是能夠讓大家能夠共享最後就是剛剛所講的就是藝文節目跟體育賽事的轉播這部分就是你們未來的這方面如何能夠跟兒少節目共存共榮需要在比例上完整的規劃您剛已經答應給我辦公室一個報告好不好這報告大概什麼時候我可以拿到呢?"},{"start":13602.847,"end":13606.19,"text":"我們一個月內一個月內好那謝謝謝謝董事長好謝謝謝謝范雲委員我們接下來請羅廷維委員好謝謝主席我們請文化部王政志好王次長"},{"start":13631.324,"end":13637.407,"text":"好,謝謝曾志。我想請問一下我們這TICP2.0有什麼具體的成效?TICP,國際合作投資方案。國際合作投資的方案,那應該是文策院的方案。對對對,我是不是可以請文策院做說明?"},{"start":13657.307,"end":13684.489,"text":"是委員要問TICP 2.0吧對對對因為2.0是今年開始我們加大的一個方案它跟1.0不同的是我們使用國發基金進場然後取消原本的投資比例跟投資上限那2.0開始以來其實已經開始陸陸續續有一些大型的國際合資案在進行送案當中那因為這些送案其實還沒有開過國發必須遵守的正式投審會所以可能很多細節我現在不變太"},{"start":13685.67,"end":13704.568,"text":"在這邊公開 細節當然不用公開 是但是就我目前了解 是不是10家申請10家這個是1.0 家測案那是1.0 1.0嗎 對不是2.0 不是那是1.0 那目前2.0有幾家申請呢目前2.0應該陸陸續續有6、7家 6、7家 是是"},{"start":13710.782,"end":13733.821,"text":"那有沒有測案跟補件中的?有一家其實...有一家...一個案子兩家正在研擬要不要測案兩家?那目前還沒通過?應該還沒開會通過對不對?那我想這個國際合作投資方案最主要的一個目的就是吸引外國來的一個..."},{"start":13735.763,"end":13756.595,"text":"之方來跟我們臺商臺灣做合作那合資合製的一個電影增進產業的一個交流共國際接軌我想這個合作投資方案的內容必須要有誘因那這個誘因你覺得2.0有提升嗎當然提升因為我們應該知道因為從疫情過後跟因為全球大型平台載製整個製作費節節上漲的關係越是國際合製案製作費就越上漲"},{"start":13761.098,"end":13761.118,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":13779.931,"end":13800.937,"text":"我們看到這個美金有提高金額有上限但是我們來看一下TICP的1.0跟2.0兩者最大的不同在於1.0很明確知道內容有哪些然後書面做審議那2.0變成通通都來申請我們會來審核當然然後有一個投審會會有投影其實之前你有跟我說過這個投審會有一個很重大的決策"},{"start":13803.218,"end":13818.478,"text":"這個我想問一下不管是我們董事長跟次長好案子不缺錢但要吸引外國的人來跟台灣投資配套就要做好我們覺得2.0的金額雖然都有加大但是整體的預算也沒有變多那這樣子的配套到底哪邊有什麼不一樣"},{"start":13818.999,"end":13844.557,"text":"報告委員我不清楚為什麼其實我們整體預算是變多的因為使用國發基金目前其實光是國發基金匡列給文化部跟文車店就有高達100億的預算可以使用跟過去我們TICP 1.0的時候是每年其實文車店只有大概7000萬左右的預算這個其實比較起來這個大水庫跟小水庫天差地遠這個要跟我們報告你所提到的那個資料再麻煩你"},{"start":13844.977,"end":13847.779,"text":"沒問題沒問題是是完全掌握這個事情其實我們在第一時間也出面跟業者做溝通而且在1月開始有這樣相關的事情報導之後我們大概在"},{"start":13867.655,"end":13882.801,"text":"這三個月來齁我個人大概就參與了十幾場公開跟線下的說明會那務必讓每一個業者都清楚知道說這個改變是為了讓大家其實可以用所以你可不可以方便跟我們提一下就是說因為我們想知道你報宅說你有問過業者啦有問過哪些業者溝通過哪些業者"},{"start":13883.681,"end":13900.466,"text":"具體的業者名稱嗎?方便提供嗎?當然,包括飛望飲業,包括奇飲,然後包含其實有許多專門做國際球制的一條龍虎豹,這些都在我們溝通的範圍當中。OK,那看起來就是有做過工作,那有備而來。那TICP,我1.0、2.0、2022年有13件通過。"},{"start":13904.847,"end":13927.802,"text":"如果這個資料有誤的話可以再跟我們做修正沒關係喔2023年有15件通過平均每個月都還有1件喔那2.0到目前的話的成績都還是0件啦因為你說還沒有審核嘛跟委員報告齁因為我們實施2.0方案就是因為之前業者有說如果我們2.0馬上上路怕他們原本已經要申請1.0的案件會來不及申請"},{"start":13928.542,"end":13955.998,"text":"會跟國外的資金斷鏈所以我們1.0其實繼續讓開放到讓他們申請到2月底為止所以他們其實今年的案子1.0是照常會申請因為你1月19就開始受理嘛對不對對那所以你1.0跟2.0是並行沒錯OK是好但因為如果我們不知道這件事情的話我會認為說2.0到目前已經有停擺三個月左右的一個時間了其實沒有沒有那所以你1.0有在做並行這是有一個很好的有落日是"},{"start":13956.778,"end":13975.114,"text":"好那我想這個銜接的過程啊1.0到2.0的轉換過程看起來有配套但是我們要知道中間一定會有一些瑕疵有問題當然我們要趕緊加緊去讓這些事情能夠瑕疵趕緊擬皮沒問題要不然我想之前有上百位的引介人士聯署抗議這個你知道嗎完全知道"},{"start":13975.754,"end":13976.374,"text":"你都知道齁?"},{"start":13976.374,"end":13998.63,"text":"完全知道,而且我覺得非常的過意不去。世界要一起連署這是一件不容易的事情,你們達到了這一個輝煌的一個成績,他們連署抗議。批評文車院在這個TCIP在這個轉換過於倉促,那我想這個部分你說你有做溝通,那後續這些溝通跟配套他們有一些相關的做法,你們有沒有去做採納或者是做研議?"},{"start":14000.993,"end":14026.331,"text":"就政策上來講因為當然其實每個業者都會希望說政府對他們的照顧是越來越好 越多越好但我必須坦白跟各位報告就是說文策院設立的目的是以商業化為目的商業化跟國際化是文策院兩大KPI那我們使用的政策工具是叫投資不叫補助那有一些業者比較遺憾他們其實有點搞不清楚文策院使用的錢叫投資各位跟我們報告投資叫將本求利"},{"start":14028.171,"end":14053.081,"text":"他們希望我們義無反顧的支持這一點容我難答應他們所以在這一次的溝通基本上是你說服他們並沒有要去趕他們我不敢說我說服他們而是我們雙向的溝通一方面要讓他理解其實文策院真的是以商業化投資的角度出發那如果說有一些案子他完全是希望跟歐洲某些國家一樣是完全用政府的補助的話我們其實就比較難去做支持"},{"start":14053.621,"end":14075.568,"text":"好,那這個2.0現在補件你說還有幾家嗎?那補件的資料是要看多久?看多久?因為現在新的CEICP 2.0我們為了要讓這個無論是立法院的監督、各位的監督我們要讓它更公開透明所以我們都必須要遵照像國發基金的規定我們要開一個正式的有委員組成的投資成員委員會"},{"start":14076.388,"end":14092.983,"text":"那這樣的流程會依照金額不同也有不同的流程一般來講如果需要我們投資在2000萬以下的金額大概需要大概3個月左右的時間那如果是在2000萬以上的金額會看金額個案大小不同可能會到3到5個月左右"},{"start":14093.203,"end":14094.263,"text":"台灣現在兒童節目自治的比例為多少?"},{"start":14113.383,"end":14136.778,"text":"現在臺灣兒童自治的節目是低於百分之十。次長不好意思您聲音可以大聲一點嗎?聽不太到。如果是純臺灣自治的節目是低於百分之十在整個用播出時數作為計算之下。2023年3月我們在這個也就是一年前臺灣自治比例大概為8%左右全球排名倒數臺灣的小朋友都在看國外的兒童節目我們不只是從孩童就在"},{"start":14137.438,"end":14139.96,"text":"你知道這些東西嗎?有聽過那你知道最近我最近小朋友迷上那個蘑菇蘑菇你知道嗎?"},{"start":14156.311,"end":14173.456,"text":"也是聽說,因為我自己沒有看啦。喔,對,那文化部在這最近蠻多人在唱這首歌啦。我想,我目前去了解,叫做小提大作兒童音樂社,看起來是台灣的一個相關的製作。"},{"start":14174.797,"end":14190.792,"text":"我想這個部分我們能不能去 我覺得自制率很低要看台灣的兒童節目要上哪看頻道有沒有過少都買國外的一個節目最讓人擔心其實是文化壟斷無形中也是接收孩子在接收國外的資訊、文化"},{"start":14191.252,"end":14212.915,"text":"次長,拿資源做一些適合小朋友台灣小朋友的頻道本席認為是非常有益的是一件好事但是你再做再好再棒沒有人看也沒有什麼用大家需要培養的齁那每一代人都有每一代的成長環境像我們前一代可能在看東森悠悠阿MOMO阿這一代的人可能都看手機看YouTube那我的孩子都在看那個"},{"start":14214.138,"end":14236.92,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":14237,"end":14258.226,"text":"那甚至是培養甚至協助像我剛剛所提到的蘑菇蘑菇這一些相關的製作我覺得他最近的點閱率是非常非常高而且我也試著陪伴著孩子一起來聽是真的有點點洗腦那當然我是鼓勵不管是文策院或者是文化部是不是能夠進一步的做接洽甚至幫他們協助他們"},{"start":14258.686,"end":14259.307,"text":"董事長有想法是不是?"},{"start":14286.126,"end":14303.533,"text":"所以其實這些方向我想委員所交代的都本來就是我們在推動的方向蘑菇蘑菇是那個知名音樂製作人林偉哲公司做的啦對所以我們其實我跟他蠻熟的我們在談這個事情好那我所提到這個你可以認同啦因為我覺得孩子是真的也蠻喜歡他也做動畫你知道最近連林宥嘉"},{"start":14305.214,"end":14318.714,"text":"他都透過這些不管是小行星啊這些平台去放送他的新的專輯但是他配合了他的新專輯是寫說他的媽媽的故事媽媽希望下班以後聽聽林宥嘉的歌啊然後進而介紹林宥嘉讓"},{"start":14320.615,"end":14320.635,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":14352.058,"end":14366.374,"text":"謝謝,謝謝羅廷薇委員。接下來請鍾嘉斌委員。鍾嘉斌?鍾嘉斌委員不在。接下來請王紅薇委員。王紅薇?王紅薇委員不在。接下來請林倩琦委員。"},{"start":14378.568,"end":14379.129,"text":"王次長、胡董事長"},{"start":14388.749,"end":14415.808,"text":"來 謝謝教委今天這個專題讓我們對於這個臺灣可能也走得比較慢的這個兒少這樣子的一個專題在影視平台讓我們特別關注的這樣一個主題有所了解那本席在前面的survey在這個去年應該你們在10月25號召開一個記者會然後 對吧宣布啟動這樣一個跨族群、跨平台跟跨語言的兒少服務計畫"},{"start":14418.13,"end":14444.108,"text":"將整個社會的主流思維透過黑潮計畫的一個挹注投入到這個專門為兒少而準備的這個平台那一次出席的有陳院長還有史部長跟胡董事長陳院長這邊特別提到能夠這樣子做是因為公共電視修法了在過去立法院人支持下可以產生很多優質的兒少節目裡面對於台灣兒少的IP"},{"start":14446.51,"end":14447.75,"text":"《黑潮計畫》本席對這個計畫也感到非常的"},{"start":14474.176,"end":14474.676,"text":"字幕提供"},{"start":14494.702,"end":14509.051,"text":"那當時在座的三位有發言人就胡董事長您當時也對於這樣一個頻道做了一些宣誓您還記得您當時比較發言的這個重點那跟您現在期待所做的這個部分是哪一些嗎?"},{"start":14511.171,"end":14534.232,"text":"當然這樣的一個兒少頻道很謝謝政府跟大院的支持那我們可以跟各國的這些公共媒體一樣都來推動那當時我想很重要的一個心情就是希望這樣的一個兒少的心智內容他能夠讓兒童在成長的過程中少年在成長過程中能夠開心家長也能夠放心我記得那時應該是我主要的"},{"start":14534.352,"end":14548.253,"text":"是是是,您主要談到家長放心那孩子能夠開心那當然這個學齡圈跟學齡的這個兒童還有跟國外的一個連結當然這個部分就跟今天的這個報告內容也差不多所以本席就發現這個記者會"},{"start":14549.855,"end":14566.299,"text":"大概就是這次報告內容的一個重點那這邊本席是有一個疑問因為好像在這一次唯一不太一樣的就是上一回你們的這個報告應該是針對第10屆的最後一個會期那這一次是這個第11屆第一個會期那不同的就是這個對象所以我這邊有一個疑問想要請教的是你們已經在這個新國會新總統新內閣上任前就已經編完"},{"start":14578.502,"end":14590.436,"text":"而且已經開始啟動執行那如果本席在這邊有一些比較新的想法然後期待做一些修正跟規劃那這個地方還能夠有這個大規模的更動跟調整嗎?"},{"start":14592.423,"end":14610.277,"text":"跟委員說明我想一個政府編列短中長程的計畫是一個現在政府的計畫形態那所以黑潮計畫的確是一個四年計畫那也有在確定四年預算的支持下有一些中長程的計畫才可以穩定發展但是如果委員有不同的意見或者是有"},{"start":14611.237,"end":14633.745,"text":"修改新的意見我想都非常歡迎委員提出來只要我們能夠在這樣的計畫裡面去容納的我們仍然會盡可能的去讓這個計畫更真完美尤其一開始提出的時候計畫可能是一個計畫的梗概那現在出來的漸漸它會有執行施行的細則方式合作的對象等等所以我想在這個過程裡面還是有很多可以提升跟做其他修改的基礎"},{"start":14634.705,"end":14651.04,"text":"好 謝謝次長那我也可能幫未來要投入跟大家一起工作的部長這邊先說一下話啦所以應該每個人都會有一些想法那我的部分呢能夠在這次跟大家做一個討論那我相信未來的你未來部長也應該會有一些想法"},{"start":14651.821,"end":14668.655,"text":"所以在這邊本席想要跟這個部裡跟公共電視這邊建議因為最近反霸凌跟這樣的議題很引發整個社會的關注所以在去年那個兒服聯盟對於全台兒少就進行調查那就發現台灣兒少現在有這種"},{"start":14671.157,"end":14696.23,"text":"為歧視的現象跟校園霸凌的調查報告產生的結果是有15.1%的兒少被霸凌霸凌的狀況有網路、肢體、言語、關係等另外還有一種概念叫做為歧視為歧視大部分在我們沒有意識到的言語當中有高達34.2%的會遭遇到這樣一個問題"},{"start":14699.292,"end":14722.189,"text":"那這個調查報告其實顯示很重要的一件事情所以本席在這邊建議啦那這個調查報告其實裡面還有38.4的這個兒少呢就覺得自己有不一樣的特質然後會引發別人的關注然後身心疾病、性別氣質還有性傾向會被為歧視其實是最嚴重的那幾個概念上外貌、家庭狀況及種族這個是被"},{"start":14726.293,"end":14745.17,"text":"發現最高的幾個比例所以本席在這邊建議就是這個反霸凌然後為歧視這個概念應該要放在這個兒少平台裡面還蠻重的一個比例這是本席對於整個社會文化的發展的一個期待當然早上大家有談到很多細節那這個細項可能未來我們再跟"},{"start":14747.572,"end":14764.525,"text":"謝謝委員的建議不過因為委員剛剛提到這個其實本來就是公視現在在進行的因為它其實是一個文化價值的核心那平等對待以及多元的文化的互相尊重原本就是整個兒少節目在價值上的一個核心所以其實公視在現在"},{"start":14767.387,"end":14792.916,"text":"對,包括生命教育跟人權教育裡面就已經要把這些這些內容其實都已經有涵蓋進來那未來我想我們還是可以繼續強化這方面我想平等這個精神跟多元尊重的這個精神本來就是兒少頻道應該去遵守的一個價值的一個目標是是是那本席就特別提醒一下那包括維歧視這個部分那可能我們都在沒有惡意當中但是其實要充斥著整個社會就是沒有自覺性的就"},{"start":14793.616,"end":14816.754,"text":"是,報告我相信在座每一個人都有可能經歷過這一段它牽涉到一個價值的內化是是是,所以那個本席這邊建議教育部、文化部還有公視應該聯手那本席其實發現很多的這個部會裡面都一個相似的概念可是有時候個型期到你們這個力道就會降低了所以這個跨部會的實質的合作期待能夠真正的落實"},{"start":14817.675,"end":14833.193,"text":"我們知道這個兒少平台在8月就要上路可以請教一下應該是那個董事長8月幾號上路?8月1號嗎?目前是定在8月20日好吧 那有點可惜那是這樣請問你們知道原明日是哪一天嗎?"},{"start":14836.319,"end":14850.752,"text":"對,如果是8月1日的話,的確是時間上是趕不及的是,時間上有點可惜那因為早上有圓明的委員這邊提到了對圓明的一個關注那本來本席是想你們如果來得及那給你們一個提醒就是圓明日"},{"start":14851.232,"end":14878.285,"text":"是在8月1號那常常8月1號是一個很重要的節慶那如果來不及至少是不是你們還是在8月開始那可不可以也強化跟重塑這樣一個概念因為本席發現從早上到現在比例除了我們政委員是原住民他有特別注意到以外大家對新住民的關注讓我覺得有一點點這個我覺得還是要為我們自己發聲一下因為畢竟原住民在你們的這個概念裡面應該就是整個"},{"start":14879.125,"end":14905.044,"text":"社會的福爾摩沙在史前歷史的部分都有很重要的一個位置所以那還包括你們這所謂黑潮計畫所以我可以問一下這個就你們的概念因為本席也查了很多本席發現在我們常常在定義上跟本席的一個學術背景我常常都覺得找不到答案可不可以請部裡面跟我解釋一下這個黑潮計畫你們的概念上是什麼"},{"start":14905.785,"end":14927.886,"text":"我是很清楚我們阿美族的概念那你們的概念是什麼跟委員說明整體的黑潮計畫其實是一個由台灣內容把台灣帶向國際的一個計畫所以它在各項的文化內容的呈現上面都有所謂黑潮計畫的推動跟助力那你們知道那個地理上的黑潮是什麼意思吧是當然"},{"start":14929.253,"end":14944.244,"text":"好啦 那我也特別查啦因為你們這邊我查不到我就再確認一下是不是我一直停留在我小時候的記憶那Koroshio好像是他的名稱嘛那跟日本有很大的關係那跟我們阿美族最大的關係是我們從小就講那我們的豐年祭就是跟著黑潮"},{"start":14945.024,"end":14971.296,"text":"一步一步往上走因為黑潮是一個暖流那帶有豐富的營養那所經過的地方都很慾望但是我建議部裡面就常常我們以前在文化創意產業或者是很多的名詞那個定義上我覺得經常是在抵運的討論不太清楚所以本是因為來自學術界這個部分就會特別注意所以你這個黑潮的概念基本上我本來以為是我們阿美族遵循的一個文化的這個中心"},{"start":14971.816,"end":14997.805,"text":"結果現在被借用了可是我一直在詮釋上找不出來你們從借用這個詞然後再發展這個部分好像中間有點斷裂本席這邊建議你們是不是在詮釋上能夠再精進去處理從它原本的意義一直到現在你們所講的要不然本席一直沒辦法搞懂這個黑潮甚至覺得我們阿美族的東西被你們用了然後也沒有一個闡述跟詮釋"},{"start":14999.265,"end":15013.747,"text":"所以這個請各位我講的真的是這個概念所以在學術概念上請你們給本席未來在查詢的時候能夠說服自己要不然會覺得我們的東西被你們用了之後也沒有任何的位置在這裡面"},{"start":15014.468,"end":15026.163,"text":"尤其是我會關注以後的你們說跨族群的語言不要只從原民台借用一些東西或者是你們說本席在過去的經驗常常碰到原住民的事物你們都會說我們會跟原民會原民會怎樣可是原民會常常都是我們原住民的概念"},{"start":15032.952,"end":15062.415,"text":"那難道這個其他的族群對我們有一些認識嗎?我們也期待其他的族群對我們的認識的概念能夠透過一些平台來瞭解然後產生一些溝通啊而不是我們自己一直在自言自語然後其他的平台建制了那其實有原名的這個部分結果中間是沒有任何對話的所以這個部分本席也會未來跟大家多做一些溝通最後文化奧運請問一下那個我們台灣原名在這個文化奧運裡面的團體的比例有多少?"},{"start":15063.166,"end":15089.722,"text":"我想我們沒有用比例來計算不過我們邀請的對象包括我們邀請的對象也有阿豹也有原住民團體的演出所以它整個是一個多元多族群包括客語傳統現代音樂DJ好的那我會特別關心原住民啦因為我發現大家現在要嘛這個年輕化要嘛幼兒化那早上也有那個五位元的這個壯士代裡面有原住民的演出然後原住民呢也有可能你剛才講的阿豹嘛非常的現代而且非常的fusion那但是很多的傳統的這個"},{"start":15093.505,"end":15101.316,"text":"團體也是做得很不錯的那本席希望會後你可不可以提供給本席參加這個文化奧運在台灣館裡面會演出的這個團體到底是哪一些團體"},{"start":15103.424,"end":15131.997,"text":"我們可以提供演出團體的名單最後本席的一個期待就這句話文化部可不可以跳脫我們這個行政本位跟有的時候意識形態那帶領台灣的社會我們引領文化的前瞻跟先鋒走向一個比較健康的方向我想文化部一直秉持台灣自由多元民主的這個基礎價值應該沒有所謂的意識形態那我們的確談不上應該帶領"},{"start":15132.657,"end":15140.829,"text":"但是我們的確希望成為台灣社會文化裡面一個重要的基礎跟力量我們把我們的位置往前走,好嗎?那我們大家一起加油謝謝委員好謝謝,謝謝林倩啟委員好次長請回,我們接下來請林月啟委員"},{"start":15156.165,"end":15180.841,"text":"有請我們的次長還有我們的胡董事長好請王次長跟胡董事長我也好上好本期在民間團體就已經非常關心兒少節目也擔任過十幾年兒少優質節目的評選所以我非常關心我們的量能跟發展上次來質詢的時候也是一樣的在針對這一部分"},{"start":15181.821,"end":15181.922,"text":"主席"},{"start":15211.181,"end":15211.882,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15226.275,"end":15245.268,"text":"如果重播率非常的高的話表示這個電視台對於自己自製節目裡邊投資的非常非常少那尤其這個兒少節目真的看起來重播率非常非常的高這種情況顯示了就是我們的品質跟數量是不足的那也意味著"},{"start":15245.948,"end":15246.128,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":15277.491,"end":15289.559,"text":"請教一下董事長在去年10月25日公視辦的公視兒少奔放前行的記者會本席當天也在現場在記者會當中宣布透過九大類節目開發將資源"},{"start":15292.481,"end":15316.431,"text":"投入兒少節目製作並帶動兒少節目跟動畫產業鏈的發展讓影視產業人才能夠續流台灣並製作更多的有意義的節目更創意的讓兒少的製作產業產能形成正向循環所以董事長想請教一下這邊有掌握九大類型節目的真案狀況嗎?"},{"start":15319.448,"end":15334.576,"text":"跟委員報告我們目前的確有6個案情順利發報出去但有3個案目前來講並沒有達到我們一起的目標所以我們會轉為自治或者再找合適的單位來跟我們合作好 謝謝董事長"},{"start":15335.598,"end":15353.624,"text":"我最擔心的就是這個因為今年1月的確在你的公開招標結果裡邊幼兒學習系列的帶狀節目跟新住民女兒學習跟我們公視兒少IP的延續有眼追追追這個三項事實上是廢標的狀態我上次質詢的時候就一直在強調台灣的公視節目裡邊真的對兒少"},{"start":15357.585,"end":15357.665,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":15373.462,"end":15374.123,"text":"主席"},{"start":15389.992,"end":15408.036,"text":"是否擁有我們足夠的團隊跟人才來應對否則前面為什麼三項會是廢標的狀態所以如果要扶持的話希望公視能夠謹慎考慮我們整體性的計畫的規劃所以是不是可以會後把你這個服務計畫的甄選提供給我在下一頁"},{"start":15411.994,"end":15434.398,"text":"要製作更多吸引家長跟孩子的內容這文策院也提出了那家長和小孩他們最想看的是對內容感興趣佔67%那孩子觀看節目的主要決策者是家長59%所以次長董事長你們自己是否親自觀看過你們公視長期以來播放的兒童節目"},{"start":15435.919,"end":15452.867,"text":"跟委員做報告就是誠如委員所說的就是因為台灣整體對兒少內容節目的產制能量過低所以才要投資在公視上請公視推出這個兒少頻道來提升整個產制那所以在現在已經播出的這個節目裡面我們當然會"},{"start":15455.957,"end":15476.628,"text":"當然會觀看他的節目內容因為也要監看他的節目品質跟節目的情況但是就整體的量來說我想還是希望大院可以繼續支持讓給公視一點時間因為今年是第一年第一年調整過預算讓公視有機會有一個完整的預算是支持兒少內容的節目那給他一點時間讓他用這個基礎上面把台灣整體能夠製作兒少節目內容的人"},{"start":15480.07,"end":15504.128,"text":"資金、公司、團隊建立起來我們才就長程來看比較可能會有一個健康的兒少節目製作的環境那你才有可能有比較好的播出的事數的內容不過如同我上次質詢的時候提到我們現在孩子他們最熟悉的人物是Polly、巧虎跟佩佩豬表示我們到底有沒有能量去提升到跟國外一樣等值的尤其幼兒我還是要再三強調"},{"start":15505.129,"end":15531.349,"text":"我們希望幼兒事實上可以觀看我們公共電視的一些節目陪伴他們成長所以是不是也可以去你們自己文策院大概就有調查了就是說怎麼去製作出吸引家長跟孩子的內容我覺得要去參佐這些意見甚至要不要去普遍調查否則現在台灣不能一直依賴水果奶奶一個IP我常常講說那個水果奶奶已經被阿祖阿祖的死肉還在播放的時候有沒有其他的好的節目"},{"start":15533.111,"end":15552.621,"text":"來讓我們的孩子能夠受惠我想結合台灣的IP不管是在動畫上、音樂上各種的表現形式上的台灣IP就是現在我們為什麼要推出台灣自製兒少內容的基礎那若不是有這些IP做基礎我們也很難產製出自己希望台灣可以製作的兒少節目所以委員提示的這個方向我想也是公視希望努力的方向"},{"start":15553.141,"end":15569.975,"text":"我會持續去關注並監督兒童節目的製作希望這個節目內容跟品質能夠滿足兒童的需求滿足兒童就包含幼兒台灣始終節目都真的很虧欠幼兒所以要請注意到這個方向公視有做分鄰的規劃"},{"start":15571.836,"end":15573.217,"text":"接下來請羅智強委員羅智強委員不在"},{"start":15596.943,"end":15626.803,"text":"今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢另外有陳冠廷委員、羅志強委員提出書面質詢關於今天會議作如下決定報告及詢答完畢委員所提書面質詢及相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答覆的部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆報告委員會今天議程處理完畢現在散會謝謝各位"},{"start":15628.445,"end":15628.565,"text":"主席"},{"start":15658.995,"end":15659.538,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"15847","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15847","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685a93ee51fe9883250a931c67c0acad2533be8d109af184be49e15bb3a7b2b48ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-25","start_time":"2024-04-25T09:00:01+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-04-25T13:09:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":14939,"委員發言時間":"09:00:01 - 13:09:00","影片長度":"04:08:59","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":117.95346875000001,"end":142.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":144.59909375,"end":145.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":146.94471875000002,"end":148.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":149.10471875000002,"end":153.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":154.30221875,"end":156.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":157.40721875,"end":160.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":161.23784375,"end":163.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":165.22034375,"end":167.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":168.30846875,"end":171.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":172.61159375,"end":176.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":176.91471875000002,"end":180.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":182.06159375000001,"end":187.88346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":188.64284375000003,"end":191.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":191.79846875,"end":199.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":199.99971875,"end":200.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":200.30346875,"end":203.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":204.42096875000001,"end":205.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":206.47971875000002,"end":206.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":206.78346875000003,"end":208.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":209.07846875,"end":210.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":210.59721875000002,"end":210.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":211.69409375,"end":211.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":212.55471875,"end":213.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":214.34346875,"end":217.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":223.84409375,"end":247.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":248.11034375000003,"end":279.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":280.25721875,"end":284.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":284.42534375,"end":292.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":292.86284375,"end":295.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":295.68096875000003,"end":300.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":300.52409375,"end":301.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":301.92471875,"end":307.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":308.32034375,"end":311.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":311.18909375000004,"end":313.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":313.36596875000004,"end":316.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":316.35284375000003,"end":317.87159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":318.34409375,"end":321.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":322.09034375000005,"end":325.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":326.08971875000003,"end":326.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":327.30471875,"end":328.51971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":328.80659375000005,"end":330.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":331.10159375,"end":334.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":334.69596875,"end":336.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":337.15971875,"end":340.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":340.55159375,"end":343.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":344.23034375000003,"end":346.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":347.01471875000004,"end":349.86659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":350.06909375000004,"end":352.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":352.58346875,"end":357.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":357.40971875,"end":358.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":358.96221875000003,"end":360.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":361.13909375000003,"end":362.40471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":362.60721875,"end":365.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":365.84721875,"end":368.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":369.13784375,"end":370.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":370.67346875000004,"end":372.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":372.74909375000004,"end":375.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":375.80346875000004,"end":382.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":382.89096875,"end":384.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":384.54471875,"end":392.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":393.18471875,"end":402.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":402.73596875000004,"end":408.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":408.42284375,"end":411.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":412.42221875,"end":413.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":414.02534375000005,"end":425.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":425.41596875000005,"end":428.36909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":428.68971875000005,"end":430.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":430.57971875000004,"end":433.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":434.12346875000003,"end":444.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":445.22721875,"end":447.64034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":447.96096875,"end":449.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":449.68221875,"end":452.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":453.25971875000005,"end":459.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":459.77346875,"end":461.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":462.76034375,"end":466.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":466.37159375000005,"end":468.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":468.24471875,"end":474.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":474.82596875,"end":476.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":476.63159375000004,"end":480.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":480.74909375000004,"end":486.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":486.73971875,"end":496.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":496.93221875,"end":497.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":498.11346875000004,"end":500.86409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":501.20159375000003,"end":505.92659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":506.38221875000005,"end":517.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":518.31284375,"end":519.3928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":519.86534375,"end":523.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":524.25284375,"end":525.5522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":525.8559687500001,"end":528.1003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":528.18471875,"end":538.6472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":544.90784375,"end":544.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":544.92471875,"end":576.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":581.64471875,"end":584.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":584.02409375,"end":584.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":584.14221875,"end":584.1928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":588.78284375,"end":619.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":594.7565937500001,"end":595.1615937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":596.0559687500001,"end":596.4609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.0590937500001,"end":603.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":619.84971875,"end":629.5359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":629.58659375,"end":629.9578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":630.12659375,"end":668.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":636.8259687500001,"end":636.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.9778437500001,"end":637.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":637.01159375,"end":637.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.06221875,"end":637.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":668.9897187500001,"end":676.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":677.07284375,"end":677.4440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":678.1528437500001,"end":686.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":685.67909375,"end":686.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":686.5903437500001,"end":686.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":686.67471875,"end":686.7422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":686.8940937500001,"end":687.1472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":687.61971875,"end":689.4253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":688.10909375,"end":689.1553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":689.4253437500001,"end":696.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":696.39471875,"end":698.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":698.31846875,"end":699.1284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":699.71909375,"end":706.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":706.5534687500001,"end":716.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":707.2790937500001,"end":707.2959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":707.2959687500002,"end":708.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":708.03846875,"end":709.2197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":710.0634687500001,"end":710.3503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":712.71284375,"end":713.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":715.46346875,"end":715.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":716.72909375,"end":725.7234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":724.94721875,"end":731.4778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":731.7647187500002,"end":732.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":732.5747187500001,"end":735.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":735.89909375,"end":740.4890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":740.64096875,"end":745.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":745.99034375,"end":748.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":748.70721875,"end":758.0222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":756.87471875,"end":764.6540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":761.1609687499999,"end":761.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":761.17784375,"end":761.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":761.78534375,"end":761.8022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":761.8022187500001,"end":761.8190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":762.6797187500001,"end":767.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":767.42159375,"end":768.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":767.4722187500001,"end":774.3740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":773.59784375,"end":776.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":777.0065937500001,"end":780.5672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":781.03971875,"end":798.2353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":791.0972187500001,"end":791.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":791.41784375,"end":791.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":795.4340937500001,"end":799.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":799.33221875,"end":804.1415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":799.3490937500001,"end":799.6865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":802.5047187500002,"end":802.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":803.28096875,"end":823.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":824.61096875,"end":825.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":825.6572187500001,"end":827.0915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":827.9015937500001,"end":852.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":830.28096875,"end":831.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":831.66471875,"end":831.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":852.57284375,"end":853.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":853.5178437500001,"end":863.5078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":853.5515937500002,"end":854.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":855.3234687500001,"end":855.6272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":860.77409375,"end":861.1284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":863.3728437500001,"end":863.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":863.60909375,"end":869.1440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":864.2165937500001,"end":864.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":869.6840937500001,"end":875.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":870.05534375,"end":870.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":876.4172187500001,"end":903.8728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":883.55534375,"end":883.7240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":889.88346875,"end":890.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":890.84534375,"end":892.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":893.52846875,"end":893.5790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":893.6128437500001,"end":893.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":900.2278437500001,"end":900.3459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":900.44721875,"end":901.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":902.4722187500001,"end":908.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":903.95721875,"end":904.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":905.79659375,"end":906.0834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":907.2647187500002,"end":907.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":908.3615937500001,"end":913.0359687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":913.05284375,"end":914.2509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":913.47471875,"end":913.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":914.2509687500001,"end":920.7478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":915.5334687500001,"end":916.6640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":916.74846875,"end":917.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":920.4778437500001,"end":939.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":922.5703437500001,"end":922.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":939.5972187500001,"end":939.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":939.68159375,"end":971.6259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":971.69346875,"end":985.4634687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":985.63221875,"end":992.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":987.16784375,"end":987.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":992.7703437500002,"end":1001.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1001.7309687500001,"end":1002.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1002.3047187500001,"end":1006.8103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1002.8615937500001,"end":1002.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1002.8784687500001,"end":1006.4897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1006.9284687500001,"end":1013.5603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1013.6784687500001,"end":1014.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1013.8134687500001,"end":1014.0834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1014.6909687500001,"end":1014.9272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1014.9272187500001,"end":1020.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1019.3484687500002,"end":1021.6940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1021.06971875,"end":1021.5422187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1021.9640937500001,"end":1056.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1031.7347187500002,"end":1032.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1034.58659375,"end":1035.9197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1057.3003437500001,"end":1113.1565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1110.99659375,"end":1111.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1111.09784375,"end":1111.1990937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1111.1990937500002,"end":1111.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1114.1522187500002,"end":1118.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1117.7634687500001,"end":1132.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1120.09221875,"end":1120.4803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1132.37721875,"end":1141.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1142.31659375,"end":1149.2859687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1146.67034375,"end":1149.3028437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1149.3028437500002,"end":1149.3197187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1149.94409375,"end":1153.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1151.0072187500002,"end":1155.3103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1154.0953437500002,"end":1158.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1156.3565937500002,"end":1163.4609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1163.5115937500002,"end":1165.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1166.5659687500001,"end":1166.9034687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1167.1228437500001,"end":1168.3040937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1168.3040937500002,"end":1171.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1168.32096875,"end":1171.6284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1171.8984687500001,"end":1181.1122187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1179.05346875,"end":1180.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1180.8253437500002,"end":1188.1490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1182.25971875,"end":1184.0315937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1188.60471875,"end":1198.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":1195.9790937500002,"end":1207.9603437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1204.04534375,"end":1204.4165937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1205.8678437500002,"end":1206.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1207.2515937500002,"end":1207.7915937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1208.0615937500002,"end":1208.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1209.2259687500002,"end":1214.4234687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1223.45159375,"end":1232.6484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1227.24846875,"end":1228.3622187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1233.2897187500002,"end":1234.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1234.7915937500002,"end":1236.1922187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1235.58471875,"end":1235.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1235.97284375,"end":1235.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1236.6478437500002,"end":1245.7772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1243.5328437500002,"end":1243.9715937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1246.3172187500002,"end":1249.0003437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1249.1353437500002,"end":1265.7234687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1265.7572187500002,"end":1268.7947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1268.9803437500002,"end":1269.5372187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1269.5372187500002,"end":1269.5540937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1270.2290937500002,"end":1270.2459687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1270.2459687500002,"end":1270.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1270.6340937500001,"end":1270.6678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1271.3597187500002,"end":1274.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1275.2747187500001,"end":1302.3253437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1275.5784687500002,"end":1275.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1277.5359687500002,"end":1277.5865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1277.5865937500002,"end":1277.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1301.8697187500002,"end":1344.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1344.81659375,"end":1345.9978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1346.2003437500002,"end":1400.4197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1400.82471875,"end":1401.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1401.63471875,"end":1426.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1418.3578437500003,"end":1418.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1418.50971875,"end":1418.5940937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":1418.5940937500002,"end":1418.6109687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1427.38596875,"end":1439.9578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1440.2447187500002,"end":1442.3878437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1442.9447187500002,"end":1452.3778437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1449.2559687500002,"end":1455.9047187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1454.8753437500002,"end":1463.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1463.8697187500002,"end":1464.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1464.9665937500001,"end":1465.4390937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1465.4390937500002,"end":1465.6078437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1465.6078437500003,"end":1465.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1465.8947187500003,"end":1469.6409687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1468.3584687500002,"end":1477.0659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1470.7547187500002,"end":1471.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1476.4922187500001,"end":1484.1703437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1483.51221875,"end":1490.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1489.7390937500002,"end":1511.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1512.73971875,"end":1558.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1558.60596875,"end":1563.0272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1558.7072187500003,"end":1558.9603437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":1558.9603437500002,"end":1558.9772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1563.21284375,"end":1603.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1603.7972187500002,"end":1604.7759687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1605.9065937500002,"end":1606.3284687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1607.0709687500002,"end":1617.4490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1617.4490937500002,"end":1618.0228437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1618.4109687500002,"end":1618.9678437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1618.9678437500002,"end":1620.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1620.03096875,"end":1623.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1620.18284375,"end":1620.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1620.2165937500001,"end":1620.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1620.62159375,"end":1620.6384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1620.6384687500001,"end":1620.6722187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1620.6722187500002,"end":1620.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1620.8240937500002,"end":1621.9884687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1621.9884687500003,"end":1622.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1622.02221875,"end":1622.6634687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1622.6634687500002,"end":1622.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1622.86596875,"end":1623.1022187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1623.28784375,"end":1623.3722187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1623.3722187500002,"end":1624.0978437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1624.0978437500003,"end":1633.2947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1630.0715937500001,"end":1630.2403437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1630.3584687500002,"end":1640.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1639.2684687500002,"end":1659.2484687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1659.4509687500001,"end":1668.1922187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1668.4790937500002,"end":1670.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1670.6222187500002,"end":1677.7772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1678.84034375,"end":1680.3253437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1681.0172187500002,"end":1682.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1682.6540937500001,"end":1688.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1688.52659375,"end":1688.7290937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1688.7290937500002,"end":1688.8472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1688.8472187500001,"end":1693.8253437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1694.85471875,"end":1703.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1701.2840937500002,"end":1719.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1708.48971875,"end":1709.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1709.35034375,"end":1709.3672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1709.3672187500001,"end":1709.9747187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":1709.9747187500002,"end":1710.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1712.9615937500002,"end":1713.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1716.2690937500001,"end":1717.0284687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1719.03659375,"end":1721.5172187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1721.9559687500002,"end":1739.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1733.5659687500001,"end":1733.8865937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":1733.8865937500002,"end":1736.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1736.21534375,"end":1736.2490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1739.03346875,"end":1801.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1739.4722187500001,"end":1739.6578437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1746.0703437500001,"end":1746.34034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1799.76659375,"end":1802.6522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1802.2303437500002,"end":1806.0609687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1803.15846875,"end":1803.5465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1805.9090937500002,"end":1807.3940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1806.1790937500002,"end":1811.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1807.9509687500001,"end":1808.5753437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1811.1234687500003,"end":1821.6534687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1811.17409375,"end":1811.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1818.4472187500003,"end":1819.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1819.03784375,"end":1819.1222187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_10","start":1819.61159375,"end":1855.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1823.7122187500001,"end":1824.0665937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1855.6228437500001,"end":1856.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":1857.2597187500003,"end":1862.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1868.2284687500003,"end":1872.7847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1876.3453437500002,"end":1881.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1881.47534375,"end":1882.5722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1883.2134687500002,"end":1885.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1885.7953437500003,"end":1897.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1897.9453437500001,"end":1903.7165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1903.8853437500002,"end":1910.4159687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1910.87159375,"end":1915.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1916.5415937500002,"end":1928.7759687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1928.8940937500001,"end":1931.2903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1931.4759687500002,"end":1939.3565937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1934.1253437500002,"end":1935.2897187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1938.8672187500001,"end":1950.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1951.2872187500002,"end":1952.0297187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1952.0297187500003,"end":1952.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1952.0972187500001,"end":1952.1309687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1952.1309687500002,"end":1952.1647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1952.5697187500002,"end":1956.2315937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1954.59471875,"end":1970.2715937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":1970.3728437500001,"end":1978.3884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1977.3590937500003,"end":1981.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1982.16846875,"end":1996.4447187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":1996.8834687500002,"end":2033.1984687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2033.6709687500002,"end":2039.7965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2039.1553437500002,"end":2041.4334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2041.7540937500003,"end":2042.8340937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2044.04909375,"end":2046.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2045.8209687500002,"end":2048.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2050.44471875,"end":2055.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2051.15346875,"end":2051.4909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2054.95034375,"end":2055.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2055.87846875,"end":2055.8953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2056.3847187500005,"end":2066.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2057.85284375,"end":2058.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2058.03846875,"end":2058.2409687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2058.2409687500003,"end":2058.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2058.81471875,"end":2059.5065937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2059.5065937500003,"end":2059.6247187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2059.6247187500003,"end":2059.7597187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2060.8397187500004,"end":2060.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2060.9072187500005,"end":2061.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2062.67909375,"end":2062.6959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2062.8309687500005,"end":2062.8984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2062.91534375,"end":2062.9490937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2064.19784375,"end":2064.5690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2066.18909375,"end":2069.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2068.4840937500003,"end":2068.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2069.14221875,"end":2071.2009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2069.68221875,"end":2072.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2073.17534375,"end":2075.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2076.31409375,"end":2079.0478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2078.7947187500004,"end":2085.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2080.58346875,"end":2081.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2082.5915937500004,"end":2088.0759687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2087.2490937500006,"end":2087.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2088.17721875,"end":2115.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2093.23971875,"end":2093.2565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2093.2565937500003,"end":2094.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2094.03284375,"end":2094.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2095.39971875,"end":2095.6865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2096.71596875,"end":2096.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2097.10409375,"end":2097.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2097.45846875,"end":2097.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2103.60096875,"end":2103.8203437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2107.1784687500003,"end":2107.7184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2112.22409375,"end":2112.2578437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2112.2578437500006,"end":2112.5615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2112.5615937500006,"end":2112.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2113.91159375,"end":2114.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2114.5528437500006,"end":2114.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2115.97034375,"end":2126.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2126.02784375,"end":2126.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2126.14596875,"end":2130.3309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2126.1628437500003,"end":2126.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2126.21346875,"end":2126.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2126.26409375,"end":2126.2809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2126.2809687500003,"end":2126.3653437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2130.3309687500005,"end":2146.6153437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2147.0878437500005,"end":2172.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2163.86159375,"end":2163.8953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2163.8953437500004,"end":2163.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2169.54846875,"end":2170.2403437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2171.77596875,"end":2193.6628437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2172.78846875,"end":2173.0078437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2179.58909375,"end":2179.8084687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2179.84221875,"end":2179.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":2182.1034687500005,"end":2182.5253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2191.84034375,"end":2192.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2193.6628437500003,"end":2250.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2193.6797187500006,"end":2193.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2194.0340937500005,"end":2194.4053437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2207.44971875,"end":2207.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2250.70034375,"end":2256.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2255.3240937500004,"end":2255.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2256.80909375,"end":2256.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2256.85971875,"end":2256.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2256.97784375,"end":2261.1797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2257.21409375,"end":2258.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2261.50034375,"end":2285.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2284.9734687500004,"end":2320.7147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2318.6728437500005,"end":2318.9090937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2320.4109687500004,"end":2328.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2325.5409687500005,"end":2325.9122187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2328.2578437500006,"end":2328.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2328.39284375,"end":2335.5478437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2335.76721875,"end":2340.2559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2338.77096875,"end":2339.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2339.17596875,"end":2339.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2339.19284375,"end":2339.2097187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2340.40784375,"end":2340.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2340.4247187500005,"end":2340.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2340.44159375,"end":2346.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2340.45846875,"end":2340.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2340.88034375,"end":2340.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_11","start":2347.0565937500005,"end":2413.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2350.65096875,"end":2351.1572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2365.83846875,"end":2366.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2366.59784375,"end":2367.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2375.0184687500005,"end":2375.6259687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2382.34221875,"end":2382.6797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2385.3290937500005,"end":2385.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2386.6959687500002,"end":2386.8984687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2392.63596875,"end":2394.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2396.9053437500006,"end":2397.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2409.0722187500005,"end":2411.7722187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2413.18971875,"end":2413.5272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2413.62846875,"end":2413.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":2415.5690937500003,"end":2419.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2425.9472187500005,"end":2429.0690937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2428.4109687500004,"end":2429.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2429.47409375,"end":2430.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2432.71409375,"end":2433.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2432.8153437500005,"end":2433.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2434.48596875,"end":2446.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2446.93971875,"end":2451.6815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2452.32284375,"end":2455.1072187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":2455.0565937500005,"end":2455.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2455.30971875,"end":2459.6972187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2460.01784375,"end":2460.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2460.8447187500005,"end":2474.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2473.34909375,"end":2480.8584687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2475.4753437500003,"end":2475.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2481.01034375,"end":2481.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2481.46596875,"end":2485.9209687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2483.8622187500005,"end":2484.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2484.7059687500005,"end":2485.8365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2485.9209687500006,"end":2486.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2486.0390937500006,"end":2488.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2486.24159375,"end":2486.7478437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2486.7478437500004,"end":2486.7647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2488.95846875,"end":2489.1609687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2489.1609687500004,"end":2490.4940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2490.62909375,"end":2492.1815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2492.21534375,"end":2500.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2500.2647187500006,"end":2510.7947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2511.30096875,"end":2518.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2519.3503437500003,"end":2520.9872187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2519.80596875,"end":2520.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2522.0165937500005,"end":2522.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2522.10096875,"end":2522.1347187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2522.1347187500005,"end":2522.1853437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2522.1853437500004,"end":2522.2022187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":2522.21909375,"end":2544.0215937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2531.63534375,"end":2531.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2531.97284375,"end":2532.0234687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2541.03471875,"end":2541.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2541.8447187500005,"end":2542.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2543.92034375,"end":2544.5615937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2544.93284375,"end":2550.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2552.77971875,"end":2563.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2563.63034375,"end":2569.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2569.9753437500003,"end":2573.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2574.59909375,"end":2585.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2583.8972187500003,"end":2584.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2584.6228437500004,"end":2587.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2587.96409375,"end":2588.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2589.41534375,"end":2599.1522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2592.7565937500003,"end":2593.04346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2593.04346875,"end":2593.0772187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2593.0772187500006,"end":2593.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2593.1278437500005,"end":2593.1953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2595.15284375,"end":2595.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2599.67534375,"end":2603.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2602.3584687500006,"end":2614.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2614.5759687500004,"end":2617.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2618.15346875,"end":2640.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2640.46221875,"end":2666.4159687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2666.98971875,"end":2686.8347187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2667.1247187500003,"end":2667.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2672.3222187500005,"end":2672.8115937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2672.9128437500003,"end":2673.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":2681.4347187500007,"end":2681.7215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2687.23971875,"end":2689.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2689.8047187500006,"end":2701.0603437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2689.88909375,"end":2690.2772187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2691.2897187500002,"end":2691.3065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2691.3065937500005,"end":2691.9140937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2691.9140937500006,"end":2691.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2697.5165937500005,"end":2697.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2698.86659375,"end":2699.2547187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2701.14471875,"end":2704.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2704.0809687500005,"end":2708.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2708.2322187500004,"end":2729.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2730.4059687500003,"end":2732.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2732.31284375,"end":2744.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2741.17221875,"end":2741.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2742.45471875,"end":2753.1365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2746.18409375,"end":2746.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2747.8378437500005,"end":2750.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2751.4490937500004,"end":2752.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2752.93409375,"end":2759.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2755.2628437500007,"end":2755.6003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2759.49846875,"end":2759.7178437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2759.85284375,"end":2779.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2779.3097187500007,"end":2791.7128437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2792.1347187500005,"end":2816.2997187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2816.63721875,"end":2824.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2825.37846875,"end":2840.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2841.9834687500006,"end":2865.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2866.48596875,"end":2873.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2874.3497187500006,"end":2879.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2879.78346875,"end":2899.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2900.21909375,"end":2902.2272187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2903.29034375,"end":2905.4840937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2905.77096875,"end":2910.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2911.7784687500007,"end":2911.8290937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2912.38596875,"end":2913.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2913.73596875,"end":2924.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2924.28284375,"end":2930.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2930.59409375,"end":2931.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2931.03284375,"end":2932.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2933.12534375,"end":2934.3065937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2934.62721875,"end":2943.9590937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2938.0359687500004,"end":2938.0528437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2938.0528437500006,"end":2938.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2941.8497187500006,"end":2942.1365937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2943.31784375,"end":2950.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2945.4440937500003,"end":2945.5622187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2950.8103437500004,"end":2965.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2964.1247187500003,"end":2964.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2965.0359687500004,"end":2965.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2965.23846875,"end":2965.30596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2965.30596875,"end":2965.6940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2965.6940937500003,"end":2965.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2965.72784375,"end":2965.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2965.74471875,"end":2965.7615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2965.7615937500004,"end":2965.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2965.86284375,"end":2966.3690937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2966.0147187500006,"end":2966.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":2966.3690937500005,"end":2966.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2966.63909375,"end":2985.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":2975.24534375,"end":2975.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2975.97096875,"end":2976.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2980.5440937500007,"end":2980.8815937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":2985.7247187500006,"end":3001.9753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3002.1609687500004,"end":3009.1640937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3005.7722187500003,"end":3006.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3009.3328437500004,"end":3009.4509687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3009.85596875,"end":3020.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3019.3397187500004,"end":3032.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3021.3984687500006,"end":3021.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3024.68909375,"end":3025.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3027.15284375,"end":3027.1865937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3027.1865937500006,"end":3027.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3028.94159375,"end":3029.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3032.9747187500006,"end":3033.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3033.0084687500002,"end":3033.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3033.7340937500003,"end":3038.0878437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3038.5772187500006,"end":3045.4959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3043.25159375,"end":3043.5553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3045.0740937500004,"end":3048.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3048.90471875,"end":3069.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3068.96909375,"end":3070.6228437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3070.1334687500002,"end":3079.7184687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3071.9559687500005,"end":3072.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3074.8415937500004,"end":3074.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3074.9765937500006,"end":3075.0440937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3079.9040937500004,"end":3102.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3102.2128437500005,"end":3102.6178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3102.6178437500002,"end":3102.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3102.65159375,"end":3110.78534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3102.85409375,"end":3103.7147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3104.87909375,"end":3105.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3110.5153437500003,"end":3112.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3111.5615937500006,"end":3121.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3115.67909375,"end":3115.8309687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":3118.98659375,"end":3119.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3121.41659375,"end":3121.4334687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3121.4334687500004,"end":3122.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3121.93971875,"end":3122.5809687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3123.34034375,"end":3128.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3140.4853437500005,"end":3144.3497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3144.6872187500003,"end":3145.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3145.02471875,"end":3145.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3145.1934687500006,"end":3145.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3145.68284375,"end":3145.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3150.3065937500005,"end":3150.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3151.0322187500005,"end":3151.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3152.63534375,"end":3155.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3155.75721875,"end":3158.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3158.40659375,"end":3158.7947187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3159.4528437500003,"end":3159.9928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3160.75221875,"end":3171.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3171.6872187500003,"end":3176.8847187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3177.6103437500005,"end":3178.2009687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3178.48784375,"end":3182.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3183.12846875,"end":3185.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3185.6934687500006,"end":3204.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3204.0197187500007,"end":3205.5553437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3205.4034687500007,"end":3218.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3216.5240937500002,"end":3217.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3218.12721875,"end":3229.3659687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3229.6022187500002,"end":3232.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3234.6140937500004,"end":3236.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3235.5759687500004,"end":3241.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3239.22096875,"end":3258.5597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3242.19096875,"end":3242.2753437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3252.5353437500007,"end":3252.6872187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3252.6872187500003,"end":3252.8222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3252.8222187500005,"end":3252.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3252.85596875,"end":3254.2565937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3257.4459687500002,"end":3261.5128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3260.38221875,"end":3260.5847187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3261.9684687500003,"end":3264.7697187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3264.9890937500004,"end":3266.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3267.38534375,"end":3270.8278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3270.27096875,"end":3272.8865937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3273.3590937500003,"end":3276.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3276.6159687500003,"end":3277.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3277.37534375,"end":3289.1034687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3279.78846875,"end":3279.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3279.97409375,"end":3280.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3289.00221875,"end":3293.4909687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3294.2840937500005,"end":3306.3497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3307.32846875,"end":3311.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3311.1759687500007,"end":3313.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3313.4540937500005,"end":3332.5059687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3328.5909687500007,"end":3334.6659687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3333.92346875,"end":3342.4959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3341.6015937500006,"end":3344.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3344.68971875,"end":3346.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3346.98471875,"end":3347.4572187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3347.00159375,"end":3356.4178437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3347.9297187500006,"end":3349.1953437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3356.8903437500003,"end":3357.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3358.2403437500006,"end":3367.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3368.09534375,"end":3368.4834687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3369.0909687500007,"end":3369.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3370.12034375,"end":3371.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3371.99346875,"end":3374.2040937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3374.3728437500004,"end":3376.2965937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3376.5497187500005,"end":3383.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3383.62034375,"end":3387.2653437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3383.87346875,"end":3384.1603437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3389.0709687500002,"end":3396.5128437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3397.1709687500006,"end":3398.3184687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3398.4197187500004,"end":3403.5497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3400.63034375,"end":3400.8497187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3403.7859687500004,"end":3404.9503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3405.5409687500005,"end":3413.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3413.8097187500007,"end":3414.1640937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3414.0965937500005,"end":3419.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3419.68221875,"end":3421.1503437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3421.7072187500007,"end":3424.3397187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3424.9303437500002,"end":3426.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3426.9890937500004,"end":3429.2334687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3430.51596875,"end":3435.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3435.1228437500004,"end":3435.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3435.51096875,"end":3441.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3438.2615937500004,"end":3440.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3441.18096875,"end":3443.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3443.6447187500007,"end":3444.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3444.20159375,"end":3445.1465937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3445.04534375,"end":3446.7497187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3446.5134687500004,"end":3453.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3446.9353437500004,"end":3447.7115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3451.62659375,"end":3459.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3456.8915937500005,"end":3463.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3460.0134687500004,"end":3460.1990937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3460.1990937500004,"end":3460.2159687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3463.0847187500003,"end":3463.5740937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3463.5909687500007,"end":3463.9959687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3463.9959687500004,"end":3467.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3468.6534687500007,"end":3482.0353437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3482.71034375,"end":3483.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3483.38534375,"end":3483.8915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3484.0097187500005,"end":3497.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3484.5497187500005,"end":3484.7859687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3498.01596875,"end":3506.3522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3506.47034375,"end":3508.8834687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3507.17909375,"end":3511.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3510.60471875,"end":3511.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3512.2247187500006,"end":3514.5534687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3515.1103437500005,"end":3526.8722187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3527.31096875,"end":3527.3447187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3527.3447187500005,"end":3528.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3529.0997187500006,"end":3530.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3530.56784375,"end":3532.2215937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3532.9978437500004,"end":3533.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3534.31409375,"end":3534.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3534.9384687500005,"end":3536.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3537.6384687500004,"end":3555.6778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3548.4890937500004,"end":3548.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3548.52284375,"end":3549.0290937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3549.0290937500004,"end":3552.1003437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3555.10409375,"end":3556.9940937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3556.9940937500005,"end":3564.8240937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3562.3097187500007,"end":3571.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3571.86096875,"end":3574.4259687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3574.72971875,"end":3574.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3574.86471875,"end":3575.3034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3575.65784375,"end":3576.2147187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3575.82659375,"end":3579.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3577.9190937500007,"end":3583.4034687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3581.4459687500002,"end":3582.4753437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3583.4034687500007,"end":3584.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3584.9728437500007,"end":3585.4284687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3585.8503437500003,"end":3586.5928437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3587.6053437500004,"end":3595.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3595.3172187500004,"end":3602.3709687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3603.2653437500003,"end":3604.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3605.40846875,"end":3614.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3614.1328437500006,"end":3616.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3614.21721875,"end":3626.7384687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3628.0378437500003,"end":3631.9022187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3628.13909375,"end":3628.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3629.0672187500004,"end":3629.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3632.0878437500005,"end":3634.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3634.28159375,"end":3644.3222187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3634.65284375,"end":3635.5134687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3641.52096875,"end":3644.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3644.89596875,"end":3652.7428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3647.12346875,"end":3647.1403437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3647.1403437500003,"end":3648.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3648.03471875,"end":3648.3553437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3652.37159375,"end":3659.3915937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3658.15971875,"end":3674.0390937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3674.71409375,"end":3683.7253437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3683.94471875,"end":3685.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3684.24846875,"end":3685.0584687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3686.3409687500007,"end":3688.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3687.3028437500006,"end":3688.4503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3688.4503437500007,"end":3688.5009687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3689.1590937500005,"end":3689.91846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3689.3447187500005,"end":3689.9522187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3689.9353437500004,"end":3692.1797187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3691.0997187500006,"end":3693.0909687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3694.0359687500004,"end":3694.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3695.0822187500007,"end":3695.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3695.09909375,"end":3695.1834687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3695.1834687500004,"end":3695.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":3695.26784375,"end":3695.40284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3695.40284375,"end":3696.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3696.22971875,"end":3699.6384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3699.67221875,"end":3699.7228437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3699.7228437500007,"end":3700.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3700.1278437500005,"end":3703.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3703.5197187500007,"end":3704.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3704.66721875,"end":3705.5447187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3706.3378437500005,"end":3709.6959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3706.37159375,"end":3707.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3709.93221875,"end":3710.52284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3710.4890937500004,"end":3710.7928437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3710.57346875,"end":3716.3278437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3716.47971875,"end":3716.8340937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3716.8340937500006,"end":3723.2634687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3720.4453437500006,"end":3720.6647187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3724.3603437500005,"end":3726.9422187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3727.3134687500005,"end":3729.2540937500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3728.7478437500004,"end":3734.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3734.1647187500002,"end":3735.1434687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3735.66659375,"end":3738.4678437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3738.7040937500005,"end":3742.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3742.6697187500004,"end":3742.9734687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3742.9734687500004,"end":3745.8590937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3745.67346875,"end":3746.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3745.90971875,"end":3754.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3749.7740937500002,"end":3749.7909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3749.7909687500005,"end":3749.9765937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3749.9765937500006,"end":3750.0272187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3750.0272187500004,"end":3750.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3752.3897187500006,"end":3752.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3752.94659375,"end":3753.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_21","start":3755.37659375,"end":3755.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3755.3934687500005,"end":3761.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3765.9403437500005,"end":3767.5097187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3768.7584687500002,"end":3769.4503437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3773.5509687500007,"end":3773.6015937500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3773.6015937500006,"end":3773.9728437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":3773.9728437500007,"end":3774.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3774.04034375,"end":3774.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3774.15846875,"end":3808.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3797.9353437500004,"end":3798.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3798.0703437500006,"end":3798.1378437500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3809.4103437500007,"end":3817.6622187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3814.84409375,"end":3815.0465937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3816.0084687500002,"end":3816.0253437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3816.0253437500005,"end":3816.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3816.36284375,"end":3816.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3818.2697187500007,"end":3821.6784687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3820.6828437500008,"end":3821.1384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3821.9147187500002,"end":3825.2390937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3825.15471875,"end":3825.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3825.50909375,"end":3828.6309687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3825.52596875,"end":3825.5428437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3828.90096875,"end":3834.9928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3835.46534375,"end":3840.7809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3837.01784375,"end":3837.4228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3841.2028437500003,"end":3842.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3843.17721875,"end":3843.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3843.97034375,"end":3844.0378437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3844.0378437500003,"end":3852.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3844.0547187500006,"end":3844.4259687500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3849.13409375,"end":3849.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3849.2859687500004,"end":3849.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3852.50909375,"end":3852.5597187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3852.5597187500007,"end":3852.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3852.69471875,"end":3852.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3852.76221875,"end":3852.7790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3852.7790937500004,"end":3854.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3852.81284375,"end":3852.8972187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3855.2428437500002,"end":3861.6384687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3862.0097187500005,"end":3862.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3862.9884687500007,"end":3866.1103437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3866.1778437500006,"end":3870.8522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3870.3290937500005,"end":3870.4472187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3870.4472187500005,"end":3870.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3870.48096875,"end":3870.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3871.08846875,"end":3877.9059687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3875.3409687500007,"end":3875.9484687500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3878.36159375,"end":3886.51221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3886.51221875,"end":3894.7809687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":3893.7178437500006,"end":3895.1522187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3895.11846875,"end":3950.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3920.19471875,"end":3920.6334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3923.8397187500004,"end":3923.8903437500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3923.8903437500003,"end":3924.1940937500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3924.1940937500003,"end":3924.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3938.33534375,"end":3938.7909687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":3943.11096875,"end":3943.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3943.1278437500005,"end":3943.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3950.8903437500003,"end":3967.6472187500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3958.1803437500002,"end":3958.2140937500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3958.2140937500008,"end":3958.6697187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3964.49159375,"end":3964.9303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3966.4659687500007,"end":3966.9890937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3967.74846875,"end":3985.2647187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3978.4472187500005,"end":3978.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3979.4597187500003,"end":3980.0165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3984.7753437500005,"end":3985.0115937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3985.6359687500008,"end":3996.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":3996.6047187500008,"end":4025.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4010.6784687500003,"end":4011.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4015.6903437500005,"end":4015.7072187500007},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4015.7072187500007,"end":4016.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4016.3484687500004,"end":4016.7872187500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4017.6647187500002,"end":4017.6815937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4017.6815937500005,"end":4018.0359687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4018.0359687500004,"end":4018.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4025.59596875,"end":4047.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4036.02471875,"end":4036.2440937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4041.2390937500004,"end":4041.2559687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4041.2559687500006,"end":4041.6778437500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4041.6778437500006,"end":4041.7790937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4044.83346875,"end":4045.4072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4047.55034375,"end":4047.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4047.73596875,"end":4059.0084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4047.7697187500007,"end":4047.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4052.2247187500006,"end":4052.6297187500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4058.75534375,"end":4059.2615937500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4059.2615937500004,"end":4059.8522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4060.3584687500006,"end":4094.3953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4063.0584687500004,"end":4063.5984687500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4067.0578437500008,"end":4067.3953437500004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4077.4190937500007,"end":4077.7734687500006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4080.69284375,"end":4080.9797187500008},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4088.28659375,"end":4088.3034687500003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4088.3034687500003,"end":4088.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4093.3153437500005,"end":4099.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4100.35221875,"end":4100.841593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4101.887843750001,"end":4104.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4104.7059687500005,"end":4109.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4109.717843750001,"end":4117.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4110.49409375,"end":4110.966593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4112.097218749999,"end":4112.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4112.16471875,"end":4114.122218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4114.577843749999,"end":4114.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4117.32846875,"end":4117.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4117.56471875,"end":4120.635968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4120.635968750001,"end":4120.9228437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4120.83846875,"end":4126.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4120.9228437500005,"end":4120.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4126.74471875,"end":4130.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4131.52034375,"end":4138.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4134.62534375,"end":4135.2665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4136.68409375,"end":4137.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4138.42221875,"end":4142.809718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4141.47659375,"end":4145.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4144.22721875,"end":4144.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4144.260968750001,"end":4144.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4145.69534375,"end":4148.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4147.450343750001,"end":4148.1590937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4148.41221875,"end":4149.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4148.86784375,"end":4153.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4153.862843749999,"end":4160.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4157.0184687500005,"end":4157.389718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4160.07284375,"end":4160.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4160.292218750001,"end":4173.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4170.40034375,"end":4170.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4172.577218750001,"end":4172.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4174.484093749999,"end":4178.517218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4178.382218750001,"end":4178.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4178.73659375,"end":4188.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4181.92596875,"end":4182.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4188.10221875,"end":4188.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4188.33846875,"end":4199.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4196.21909375,"end":4196.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4199.003468749999,"end":4199.526593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4199.526593750001,"end":4202.192843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4199.54346875,"end":4199.847218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4202.564093749999,"end":4205.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4203.930968750001,"end":4204.302218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4204.55534375,"end":4209.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4207.727843750001,"end":4208.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4208.82471875,"end":4215.220343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4213.27971875,"end":4213.482218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4215.979718750001,"end":4223.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":4219.2197187500005,"end":4219.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4219.23659375,"end":4219.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4219.8778437500005,"end":4220.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4222.392218749999,"end":4222.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4222.47659375,"end":4222.493468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4223.26971875,"end":4225.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4225.32846875,"end":4246.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4230.036593750001,"end":4230.1884687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4234.592843750001,"end":4234.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4234.60971875,"end":4235.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4240.7353437500005,"end":4240.769093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4240.769093749999,"end":4241.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4246.13534375,"end":4248.5653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4247.87346875,"end":4295.005343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4260.1415937500005,"end":4260.71534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4278.653468750001,"end":4279.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4280.155343750001,"end":4280.526593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4295.22471875,"end":4295.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4295.241593750001,"end":4295.663468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4295.663468750001,"end":4299.1903437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4298.63346875,"end":4300.776593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4299.510968750001,"end":4299.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4299.94971875,"end":4306.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4307.12159375,"end":4318.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4309.56846875,"end":4309.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":4318.83284375,"end":4327.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4326.57846875,"end":4328.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":4329.44721875,"end":4333.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4346.50784375,"end":4349.747843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4350.43971875,"end":4351.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4354.911593750001,"end":4355.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4356.075968749999,"end":4366.015343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4365.593468749999,"end":4366.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4366.0322187500005,"end":4397.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4374.182843750001,"end":4374.604718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4378.5028437500005,"end":4378.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4391.007218750001,"end":4391.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4397.92596875,"end":4399.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4399.69784375,"end":4416.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4417.0790937500005,"end":4429.499093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4430.44409375,"end":4430.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4431.72659375,"end":4433.700968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4433.987843749999,"end":4442.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4441.817843750001,"end":4456.161593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4448.92221875,"end":4449.276593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4455.77346875,"end":4460.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4457.950343750001,"end":4459.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4460.16096875,"end":4468.9022187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4468.98659375,"end":4469.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4470.0497187500005,"end":4470.8934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4471.214093750001,"end":4491.464093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4478.77409375,"end":4480.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4491.464093750001,"end":4496.155343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4491.497843749999,"end":4491.784718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4496.25659375,"end":4501.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4499.513468749999,"end":4499.81721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4501.28534375,"end":4506.314093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4506.314093749999,"end":4509.030968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4509.030968749999,"end":4509.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4509.30096875,"end":4509.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4509.38534375,"end":4510.212218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4510.212218750001,"end":4530.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4527.6103437500005,"end":4533.600968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4530.10784375,"end":4530.124718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4532.82471875,"end":4534.259093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4533.8709687499995,"end":4557.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4557.95159375,"end":4614.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4565.27534375,"end":4565.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4565.49471875,"end":4565.612843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4614.651593750001,"end":4616.052218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4617.317843750001,"end":4630.395968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4630.395968750001,"end":4630.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4631.03721875,"end":4656.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4657.19346875,"end":4683.788468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4683.61971875,"end":4691.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4691.669093750001,"end":4694.0653437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4694.706593749999,"end":4698.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4699.19534375,"end":4705.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4705.28721875,"end":4727.3934687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4726.78596875,"end":4728.3553437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4727.86596875,"end":4749.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4730.8865937499995,"end":4731.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4749.837218750001,"end":4775.419718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4776.01034375,"end":4781.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4781.73096875,"end":4792.497218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4792.817843750001,"end":4805.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4805.946593750001,"end":4817.286593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4817.64096875,"end":4823.7665937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4824.374093750001,"end":4869.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":4869.34596875,"end":4908.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4884.34784375,"end":4884.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4908.02346875,"end":4912.208468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4913.11971875,"end":4924.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4925.337218750001,"end":4941.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":4932.30659375,"end":4932.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4932.9647187499995,"end":4933.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4933.6903437500005,"end":4934.010968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":4941.58784375,"end":4966.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4967.2040937500005,"end":4972.452218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4972.97534375,"end":4977.700343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":4977.919718749999,"end":5010.792218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5007.0965937500005,"end":5007.130343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5007.130343750001,"end":5007.501593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5010.792218750001,"end":5054.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5010.80909375,"end":5011.7372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5046.465968750001,"end":5046.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5046.48284375,"end":5046.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5050.33034375,"end":5050.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5051.30909375,"end":5052.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5054.07659375,"end":5060.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5060.35409375,"end":5063.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5063.35784375,"end":5064.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5064.792218750001,"end":5065.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5065.70346875,"end":5071.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5072.40284375,"end":5081.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5078.241593750001,"end":5079.169718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5079.47346875,"end":5106.557843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5106.86159375,"end":5106.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5106.878468750001,"end":5106.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5106.91221875,"end":5107.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5107.14846875,"end":5107.435343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_27","start":5107.435343749999,"end":5107.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5107.46909375,"end":5107.485968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5107.485968749999,"end":5107.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5107.536593750001,"end":5107.671593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5109.561593750001,"end":5118.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5129.288468750001,"end":5131.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5132.03909375,"end":5133.405968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5136.325343750001,"end":5136.882218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5136.882218750001,"end":5136.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5137.540343750001,"end":5188.350968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5138.60346875,"end":5138.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5138.78909375,"end":5138.856593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5138.856593750001,"end":5138.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5157.419093750001,"end":5157.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5165.97471875,"end":5166.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5189.54909375,"end":5218.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5218.89471875,"end":5218.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5219.755343750001,"end":5231.466593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5231.804093750001,"end":5238.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5239.2459687499995,"end":5239.583468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5239.920968750001,"end":5242.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5242.99221875,"end":5248.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5248.341593749999,"end":5248.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5248.93221875,"end":5256.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5256.94784375,"end":5258.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5259.040343750001,"end":5260.997843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5261.30159375,"end":5265.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5266.43159375,"end":5269.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5269.94159375,"end":5278.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5279.239718750001,"end":5280.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5281.635968750001,"end":5288.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5289.14534375,"end":5289.8709687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5290.64721875,"end":5305.4803437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5305.4803437499995,"end":5305.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5306.189093749999,"end":5311.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5311.74096875,"end":5318.102843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5318.102843750001,"end":5352.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5318.1365937499995,"end":5318.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5320.88721875,"end":5324.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5328.497843749999,"end":5328.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5339.466593749999,"end":5339.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5344.579718749999,"end":5345.895968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5349.608468750001,"end":5349.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5352.15659375,"end":5364.5428437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5364.86346875,"end":5372.845343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5372.91284375,"end":5374.718468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5375.03909375,"end":5379.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5380.202843749999,"end":5392.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5382.34596875,"end":5382.413468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5392.538468750001,"end":5399.997218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5400.52034375,"end":5411.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5405.667218750001,"end":5406.173468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5409.21096875,"end":5409.599093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5411.050343750001,"end":5411.472218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5411.55659375,"end":5411.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5411.7928437499995,"end":5411.995343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5411.995343750001,"end":5419.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5412.01221875,"end":5412.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5416.669718749999,"end":5417.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5419.84221875,"end":5432.616593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5423.385968750001,"end":5425.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5426.1365937499995,"end":5426.609093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5427.267218749999,"end":5427.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5428.583468750001,"end":5428.904093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5430.01784375,"end":5447.061593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5435.02971875,"end":5435.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5447.061593750001,"end":5478.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5451.415343750001,"end":5452.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5478.7528437500005,"end":5537.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5527.65659375,"end":5528.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5535.16596875,"end":5535.503468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5537.49471875,"end":5537.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5538.20346875,"end":5542.4559687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5543.249093750001,"end":5547.2147187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5547.80534375,"end":5554.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5548.9022187499995,"end":5549.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5549.982218749999,"end":5550.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5550.0497187500005,"end":5550.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5554.57221875,"end":5555.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5554.960343750001,"end":5561.1365937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5561.5584687499995,"end":5570.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5564.25846875,"end":5564.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5567.97096875,"end":5568.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5568.00471875,"end":5568.460343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5570.45159375,"end":5579.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5579.96909375,"end":5582.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5582.804093750001,"end":5583.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5583.00659375,"end":5609.2978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5587.5965937500005,"end":5587.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5609.432843750001,"end":5610.647843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5610.647843750001,"end":5610.9853437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5611.27221875,"end":5613.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5613.0272187499995,"end":5613.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5613.4490937499995,"end":5618.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5618.41034375,"end":5619.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5618.46096875,"end":5618.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5618.5115937499995,"end":5618.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5618.78159375,"end":5618.798468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5620.0809687500005,"end":5625.548468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5625.548468749999,"end":5625.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5625.66659375,"end":5640.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5625.6834687499995,"end":5626.020968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5634.81284375,"end":5634.9647187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5634.9647187499995,"end":5635.200968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5640.786593750001,"end":5649.325343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5643.655343750001,"end":5643.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5643.689093749999,"end":5643.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5645.950343750001,"end":5645.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5645.96721875,"end":5646.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5646.034718750001,"end":5646.270968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5646.372218750001,"end":5646.507218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5649.595343749999,"end":5689.437218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5669.59221875,"end":5670.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5683.716593749999,"end":5683.919093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5683.919093750001,"end":5683.952843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5683.952843749999,"end":5684.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5686.38284375,"end":5686.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5687.327843749999,"end":5699.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5690.804093750001,"end":5691.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5691.68159375,"end":5691.833468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5693.622218750001,"end":5694.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5699.325968749999,"end":5699.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5699.62971875,"end":5700.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5700.89534375,"end":5711.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":5704.28721875,"end":5704.304093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5704.304093750001,"end":5704.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5704.32096875,"end":5704.354718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5704.354718750001,"end":5704.590968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":5704.590968750001,"end":5704.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5711.22284375,"end":5719.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5715.829718749999,"end":5718.411593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5718.71534375,"end":5726.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5725.93784375,"end":5806.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5766.032843749999,"end":5766.319718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5772.0740937499995,"end":5772.360968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5799.546593749999,"end":5799.5634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5799.5634687500005,"end":5799.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5806.46534375,"end":5809.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5809.70534375,"end":5809.823468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5809.823468750001,"end":5810.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5810.0428437499995,"end":5811.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5812.28721875,"end":5820.370343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5820.72471875,"end":5830.967843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5831.45721875,"end":5842.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5842.729718750001,"end":5846.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5847.10034375,"end":5850.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5850.99846875,"end":5855.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":5855.74034375,"end":5861.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5856.415343750001,"end":5856.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5856.71909375,"end":5856.735968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5859.182843750001,"end":5859.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5859.19971875,"end":5859.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5859.33471875,"end":5859.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5859.72284375,"end":5859.840968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5859.840968750001,"end":5859.975968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5859.975968750001,"end":5860.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5860.026593750001,"end":5860.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5860.397843750001,"end":5860.684718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5860.684718750001,"end":5860.9715937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5860.9715937500005,"end":5861.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5861.5115937499995,"end":5861.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5862.929093750001,"end":5866.860968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5876.26034375,"end":5878.0322187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5878.31909375,"end":5879.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5883.3309687500005,"end":5883.364718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5883.364718750001,"end":5884.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5884.79909375,"end":5884.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5884.815968750001,"end":5885.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5885.03534375,"end":5885.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5885.17034375,"end":5885.237843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5885.237843750001,"end":5887.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5885.25471875,"end":5885.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5885.659718750001,"end":5885.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":5885.72721875,"end":5885.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5885.77784375,"end":5885.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5888.325968749999,"end":5889.456593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5889.794093750001,"end":5893.1522187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5893.405343750001,"end":5894.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5894.08034375,"end":5896.544093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5896.29096875,"end":5896.64534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5896.64534375,"end":5896.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5897.21909375,"end":5902.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5902.720343750001,"end":5903.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5903.63159375,"end":5903.6990937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5903.6990937499995,"end":5903.850968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5903.850968750001,"end":5905.015343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5905.50471875,"end":5908.154093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5908.32284375,"end":5909.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5909.11596875,"end":5913.7059687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5909.13284375,"end":5909.892218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5909.892218750001,"end":5909.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5914.46534375,"end":5916.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5915.562218749999,"end":5917.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5917.31721875,"end":5921.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5918.17784375,"end":5918.667218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5920.94534375,"end":5921.384093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5921.384093750001,"end":5921.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5921.434718750001,"end":5921.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5921.82284375,"end":5932.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5927.3240937499995,"end":5927.340968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5928.67409375,"end":5928.927218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5932.33596875,"end":5932.639718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5932.622843749999,"end":5933.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5934.276593750001,"end":5937.837218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5938.2928437499995,"end":5939.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5939.760968750001,"end":5942.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5940.182843750001,"end":5940.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5943.10221875,"end":5949.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5945.07659375,"end":5945.329718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5946.00471875,"end":5946.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5950.122218750001,"end":5950.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5950.42596875,"end":5957.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5956.80471875,"end":5957.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5957.530343750001,"end":5957.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5957.73284375,"end":5972.144093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5972.39721875,"end":5976.092843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5976.48096875,"end":5979.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5979.788468750001,"end":5981.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5981.2059687500005,"end":5982.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5982.2353437500005,"end":5984.2772187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5984.31096875,"end":5986.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5986.97721875,"end":5987.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5987.68596875,"end":5989.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":5989.37346875,"end":5989.913468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5990.0653437500005,"end":6002.0634687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6002.569718750001,"end":6004.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6005.16846875,"end":6012.407843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6010.399718750001,"end":6011.057843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6012.407843750001,"end":6013.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6012.44159375,"end":6012.559718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6013.18409375,"end":6024.2372187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6024.2372187500005,"end":6024.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6024.62534375,"end":6025.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6027.05534375,"end":6030.734093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6031.493468750001,"end":6049.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6044.6053437499995,"end":6044.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6044.97659375,"end":6045.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6048.8240937499995,"end":6049.026593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6049.499093750001,"end":6050.292218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6050.78159375,"end":6058.74659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6058.79721875,"end":6062.560343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6059.30346875,"end":6059.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6062.91471875,"end":6063.640343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6064.669718749999,"end":6069.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6069.782843750001,"end":6073.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6073.41096875,"end":6077.241593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6077.241593750001,"end":6077.342843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6078.085343750001,"end":6080.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6081.1903437500005,"end":6082.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6083.16471875,"end":6086.185343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6086.607218749999,"end":6088.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6088.767218750001,"end":6091.450343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6092.02409375,"end":6096.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6093.39096875,"end":6094.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6097.491593750001,"end":6105.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6105.96284375,"end":6114.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6107.059718750001,"end":6107.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6114.653468750001,"end":6125.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6126.80346875,"end":6146.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6138.43034375,"end":6138.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6146.96909375,"end":6151.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6151.89659375,"end":6157.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6158.190968750001,"end":6158.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6159.186593750001,"end":6162.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6162.645968750001,"end":6167.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6168.61971875,"end":6169.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6169.85159375,"end":6172.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6173.07471875,"end":6174.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6174.222218750001,"end":6175.352843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6175.015343749999,"end":6177.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6176.6522187499995,"end":6177.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6177.42846875,"end":6183.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6181.917218750001,"end":6182.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6183.419093750001,"end":6185.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6185.86596875,"end":6189.7978437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6189.966593749999,"end":6195.366593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6195.40034375,"end":6195.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6195.61971875,"end":6199.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6199.872218750001,"end":6201.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6201.62721875,"end":6203.247218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6203.753468750001,"end":6206.284718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6206.757218750001,"end":6209.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6210.081593750001,"end":6211.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6211.583468750001,"end":6217.810343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6218.012843750001,"end":6226.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6227.22659375,"end":6238.1278437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6238.61721875,"end":6259.575968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6260.68971875,"end":6265.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6265.38096875,"end":6275.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6275.759093750001,"end":6279.0497187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6279.70784375,"end":6283.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6284.26409375,"end":6288.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6288.972218750001,"end":6293.427218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6293.68034375,"end":6300.970343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6300.5653437500005,"end":6311.77034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6301.965968750001,"end":6302.337218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6302.337218750001,"end":6302.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6302.4384687500005,"end":6302.708468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6309.39096875,"end":6312.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6313.120343750001,"end":6328.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6328.74659375,"end":6331.581593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6332.07096875,"end":6340.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6339.934718750001,"end":6340.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6340.542218750001,"end":6341.706593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6341.95971875,"end":6353.434718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6352.2197187500005,"end":6353.333468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6353.704718750001,"end":6359.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6353.78909375,"end":6354.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6360.99471875,"end":6368.6728437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6368.92596875,"end":6374.325968749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6374.325968749999,"end":6374.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6374.59596875,"end":6375.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6374.663468750001,"end":6374.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6375.96284375,"end":6380.012843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6380.78909375,"end":6398.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6396.685343749999,"end":6397.022843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6397.022843750001,"end":6397.917218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6397.917218750001,"end":6398.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6398.03534375,"end":6398.339093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6398.32221875,"end":6403.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6402.4228437500005,"end":6403.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6403.772843750001,"end":6414.032843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6405.139718750001,"end":6405.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6405.20721875,"end":6405.595343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6405.595343750001,"end":6405.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6405.66284375,"end":6405.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6414.28596875,"end":6418.825343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6418.92659375,"end":6419.905343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6418.94346875,"end":6419.702843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6420.20909375,"end":6423.0947187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6420.512843750001,"end":6421.3397187499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6423.85409375,"end":6426.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6423.921593749999,"end":6424.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6425.237843750001,"end":6437.8603437500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6437.995343750001,"end":6440.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6441.15096875,"end":6445.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6445.47096875,"end":6446.1122187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6446.044718749999,"end":6447.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6447.546593749999,"end":6448.204718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6448.204718750001,"end":6448.542218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6448.542218750001,"end":6455.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6448.575968749999,"end":6448.7615937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6455.96721875,"end":6467.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6461.046593749999,"end":6461.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6464.21909375,"end":6464.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6467.2059687500005,"end":6471.137843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6471.930968750001,"end":6476.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6476.53784375,"end":6476.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6477.24659375,"end":6478.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6478.90034375,"end":6479.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6479.9803437499995,"end":6483.186593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6483.743468750001,"end":6488.805968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6485.751593750001,"end":6486.224093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6489.042218750001,"end":6489.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6489.37971875,"end":6493.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6489.413468750001,"end":6489.497843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6491.6747187500005,"end":6492.0965937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6493.37909375,"end":6493.733468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6493.868468750001,"end":6494.189093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6494.50971875,"end":6501.512843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6501.90096875,"end":6505.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6501.95159375,"end":6503.1834687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6505.90034375,"end":6506.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6506.11971875,"end":6509.764718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6506.1365937499995,"end":6506.372843749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6509.764718750001,"end":6509.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6510.186593750001,"end":6516.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":6513.122843749999,"end":6513.561593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6517.05471875,"end":6521.374718749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6521.847218750001,"end":6530.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6522.606593750001,"end":6522.6572187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6522.6572187500005,"end":6522.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6522.690968750001,"end":6522.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6522.72471875,"end":6522.977843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":6524.108468750001,"end":6524.952218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6524.952218750001,"end":6525.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6531.56721875,"end":6532.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6531.786593750001,"end":6532.680968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6533.2040937500005,"end":6535.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6534.689093750001,"end":6539.295968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6540.00471875,"end":6543.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6542.18159375,"end":6545.607218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6544.122218750001,"end":6544.392218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":6544.98284375,"end":6545.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":6545.607218749999,"end":6550.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7183.70159375,"end":7188.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7196.340968750001,"end":7204.626593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7203.9178437499995,"end":7204.964093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7205.82471875,"end":7207.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7207.46159375,"end":7207.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7208.11971875,"end":7208.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7208.22096875,"end":7209.554093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7210.5497187500005,"end":7211.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7211.5115937499995,"end":7212.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7214.717843750001,"end":7218.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7220.21909375,"end":7220.573468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7221.788468750001,"end":7222.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7223.44221875,"end":7225.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7225.399718750001,"end":7233.5165937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7233.9384687500005,"end":7235.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7236.19971875,"end":7237.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7237.684718750001,"end":7241.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7242.42659375,"end":7243.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7244.11409375,"end":7245.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7245.63284375,"end":7246.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7247.53971875,"end":7249.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7250.12159375,"end":7251.134093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7252.61909375,"end":7254.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7255.065968750001,"end":7257.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7257.85034375,"end":7259.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7260.921593750001,"end":7263.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7264.38096875,"end":7266.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7266.743468750001,"end":7268.7684687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7269.089093750001,"end":7270.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7271.4178437499995,"end":7273.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7273.84784375,"end":7275.079718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7276.00784375,"end":7283.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7283.7197187500005,"end":7292.5115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7293.05159375,"end":7296.038468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7296.561593750001,"end":7304.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7303.3622187500005,"end":7303.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7306.349093750001,"end":7307.715968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7308.01971875,"end":7308.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7310.196593750001,"end":7311.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7313.014718750001,"end":7319.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7314.735968750001,"end":7315.124093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7320.89534375,"end":7324.540343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7325.805968750001,"end":7327.915343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7328.91096875,"end":7329.467843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7329.788468750001,"end":7330.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7330.294718749999,"end":7333.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7333.97346875,"end":7335.4247187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7335.745343750001,"end":7336.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7336.352843750001,"end":7337.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7337.753468750001,"end":7340.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7341.600968750001,"end":7345.077218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7345.296593750001,"end":7346.714093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7347.169718749999,"end":7350.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7351.169093750001,"end":7351.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7352.9072187500005,"end":7354.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7354.84784375,"end":7355.624093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7356.315968750001,"end":7357.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7358.340968750001,"end":7361.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7362.01971875,"end":7363.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7364.280968750001,"end":7364.5340937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7365.39471875,"end":7370.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7370.609093750001,"end":7372.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7373.54534375,"end":7376.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7376.8865937499995,"end":7381.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7381.56096875,"end":7385.762843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7386.184718750001,"end":7390.403468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7390.960343750001,"end":7394.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7394.807843750001,"end":7396.309718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7397.2040937500005,"end":7399.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7399.819718750001,"end":7401.794093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7401.96284375,"end":7405.118468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7405.69221875,"end":7408.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7410.417218750001,"end":7413.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7414.821593750001,"end":7415.935343749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7417.3865937499995,"end":7418.7197187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7419.10784375,"end":7421.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7422.651593750001,"end":7423.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7423.93409375,"end":7426.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7426.93784375,"end":7428.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7429.215968750001,"end":7432.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7432.6415937500005,"end":7433.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7433.55284375,"end":7436.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7437.180968750001,"end":7438.260968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7438.64909375,"end":7441.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7442.20971875,"end":7442.564093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7444.09971875,"end":7450.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7451.423468750001,"end":7456.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7457.17784375,"end":7463.4384687500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7463.96159375,"end":7464.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7465.42971875,"end":7468.028468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7469.935343749999,"end":7470.795968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7471.60596875,"end":7472.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7473.47909375,"end":7474.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7474.727843750001,"end":7482.591593749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7483.73909375,"end":7484.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7485.510968750001,"end":7487.53596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7487.7215937500005,"end":7488.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7489.020968750001,"end":7495.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7496.46284375,"end":7498.4540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7499.618468750001,"end":7500.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7501.05284375,"end":7508.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7509.0009687500005,"end":7510.300343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7510.958468750001,"end":7516.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7517.13471875,"end":7520.982218749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7521.35346875,"end":7537.6209687499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7538.68409375,"end":7539.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7540.18596875,"end":7540.675343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7540.675343750001,"end":7540.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7541.2997187500005,"end":7543.1053437499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7543.1053437499995,"end":7545.265343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7543.155968750001,"end":7545.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7545.974093750001,"end":7548.420968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":7546.024718750001,"end":7547.610968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7548.5897187499995,"end":7553.888468749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7554.44534375,"end":7555.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7556.149718750001,"end":7562.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7563.186593750001,"end":7573.024718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7573.682843750001,"end":7575.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7576.61909375,"end":7577.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7578.5428437499995,"end":7579.960343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7581.29346875,"end":7585.579718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7586.052218750001,"end":7588.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7589.325968749999,"end":7590.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7591.030343750001,"end":7592.009093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7592.78534375,"end":7592.9540937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":7593.05534375,"end":7593.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7593.07221875,"end":7594.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7596.278468750001,"end":7599.974093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7600.85159375,"end":7601.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7602.20159375,"end":7606.217843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7606.8084687499995,"end":7608.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7609.2215937500005,"end":7612.073468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7612.74846875,"end":7614.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7615.718468750001,"end":7617.692843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7618.18221875,"end":7621.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7621.5740937499995,"end":7624.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7624.89846875,"end":7629.606593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7629.977843750001,"end":7631.564093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7632.323468750001,"end":7634.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":7634.247218750001,"end":7636.00221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7636.4072187500005,"end":7637.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_29","start":7637.419718749999,"end":7637.520968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7638.48284375,"end":7640.760968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":7641.33471875,"end":7643.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7652.944718750001,"end":7657.399718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7661.58471875,"end":7698.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7698.43971875,"end":7830.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7710.53909375,"end":7711.0115937499995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7831.36409375,"end":7843.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7843.1259687500005,"end":7843.210343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7843.24409375,"end":7860.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7860.270968750001,"end":7884.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7885.43159375,"end":7893.05909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7893.58221875,"end":7895.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7896.01221875,"end":7900.872218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7901.17596875,"end":7902.458468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7902.829718750001,"end":7909.630343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":7908.43221875,"end":7911.233468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7909.90034375,"end":7910.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":7910.54159375,"end":7926.404093749999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7926.6572187500005,"end":7987.94721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":7988.21721875,"end":8072.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8072.82846875,"end":8073.2840937500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8074.38096875,"end":8074.397843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8074.397843750001,"end":8081.9072187500005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8081.95784375,"end":8086.952843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8087.54346875,"end":8097.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8096.4872187500005,"end":8164.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8164.18971875,"end":8185.536593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8185.587218750001,"end":8213.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8213.86971875,"end":8234.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8235.419093750003,"end":8244.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8244.852218750002,"end":8252.73284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8253.00284375,"end":8253.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8254.09971875,"end":8306.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8306.817218750002,"end":8307.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8306.817218750002,"end":8307.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8307.40784375,"end":8309.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8308.082843750002,"end":8308.909718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8309.618468750003,"end":8315.406593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8311.00221875,"end":8311.339718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8315.64284375,"end":8324.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8324.65409375,"end":8325.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8326.08846875,"end":8332.703468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8331.87659375,"end":8342.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8336.01096875,"end":8337.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8337.27659375,"end":8337.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8337.765968750002,"end":8337.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8337.968468750001,"end":8338.035968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8338.035968750002,"end":8338.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8342.69346875,"end":8345.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8346.08534375,"end":8363.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":8362.825343750003,"end":8363.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8363.230343750001,"end":8363.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8364.175343750001,"end":8364.867218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8365.64346875,"end":8366.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8366.504093750002,"end":8369.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8368.765343750001,"end":8369.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8369.71034375,"end":8371.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8372.039093750001,"end":8373.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8373.473468750002,"end":8375.042843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8373.64221875,"end":8374.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8374.45221875,"end":8374.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8374.48596875,"end":8374.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8374.55346875,"end":8374.671593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8374.671593750001,"end":8374.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8374.722218750001,"end":8374.789718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8375.80221875,"end":8375.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8375.835968750001,"end":8379.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8376.325343750003,"end":8376.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8376.39284375,"end":8377.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8377.35471875,"end":8377.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8379.71721875,"end":8387.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8386.281593750002,"end":8422.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8389.25159375,"end":8389.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8405.77221875,"end":8406.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8421.53346875,"end":8421.921593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8423.406593750002,"end":8445.293468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8445.68159375,"end":8464.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8466.37034375,"end":8466.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8466.387218750002,"end":8468.344718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8468.42909375,"end":8469.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8469.69471875,"end":8474.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8475.077843750001,"end":8475.972218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8475.972218750001,"end":8493.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8494.956593750001,"end":8527.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8528.01471875,"end":8538.780968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8538.780968750001,"end":8538.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8539.000343750002,"end":8539.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":8539.01721875,"end":8539.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8539.03409375,"end":8539.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8539.77659375,"end":8539.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8539.87784375,"end":8539.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8539.91159375,"end":8539.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8539.962218750003,"end":8540.164718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8540.384093750003,"end":8543.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8544.19784375,"end":8546.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8544.231593750003,"end":8554.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8554.508468750002,"end":8554.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8554.52534375,"end":8554.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8554.54221875,"end":8554.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8554.559093750002,"end":8554.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8554.62659375,"end":8555.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8555.672843750002,"end":8562.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8561.49471875,"end":8562.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8562.372218750003,"end":8569.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8569.34159375,"end":8569.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8569.66221875,"end":8630.817218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8631.94784375,"end":8633.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8633.56784375,"end":8649.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8649.56534375,"end":8661.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8661.934718750003,"end":8679.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8679.46784375,"end":8689.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8689.42409375,"end":8689.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8690.21721875,"end":8693.946593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8694.23346875,"end":8715.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8715.31034375,"end":8715.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8715.83346875,"end":8722.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8721.300968750002,"end":8721.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8721.31784375,"end":8721.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8721.60471875,"end":8722.144718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":8722.12784375,"end":8722.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8722.17846875,"end":8722.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_15","start":8722.92096875,"end":8722.937843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8722.937843750002,"end":8724.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8725.11471875,"end":8730.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8730.14346875,"end":8734.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8744.33534375,"end":8745.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8746.242218750001,"end":8747.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":8750.79846875,"end":8751.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8751.034718750001,"end":8751.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8751.878468750001,"end":8761.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8762.56034375,"end":8767.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8768.21346875,"end":8775.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8776.33034375,"end":8778.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8779.097843750002,"end":8787.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8787.87284375,"end":8801.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8801.997218750003,"end":8818.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8819.445968750002,"end":8822.500343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8822.26409375,"end":8824.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8824.52534375,"end":8827.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8826.63471875,"end":8828.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8829.28409375,"end":8840.269718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8840.860343750002,"end":8841.957218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8842.29471875,"end":8848.825343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8848.96034375,"end":8849.719718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8849.93909375,"end":8852.234093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8852.993468750003,"end":8857.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8858.359718750002,"end":8862.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8865.02534375,"end":8865.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8866.223468750002,"end":8870.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8870.66159375,"end":8871.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8872.16346875,"end":8874.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8874.120968750001,"end":8877.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8879.250968750002,"end":8883.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8883.891593750002,"end":8889.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8889.899093750002,"end":8891.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8891.72159375,"end":8893.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8894.168468750002,"end":8894.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8895.34971875,"end":8895.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8897.003468750001,"end":8899.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8900.09159375,"end":8902.065968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8902.454093750002,"end":8905.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8905.980968750002,"end":8912.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8913.034718750001,"end":8914.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8914.82346875,"end":8916.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8917.45596875,"end":8924.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8924.72909375,"end":8926.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8926.51784375,"end":8943.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8944.101593750001,"end":8947.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8947.45971875,"end":8950.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8950.78409375,"end":8977.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8978.10471875,"end":8983.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8982.15471875,"end":8984.331593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":8984.331593750001,"end":8998.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":8999.02971875,"end":8999.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9000.93659375,"end":9002.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9003.50159375,"end":9006.437843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9006.960968750001,"end":9007.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9008.226593750001,"end":9009.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9009.593468750001,"end":9010.352843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9010.79159375,"end":9011.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9012.546593750001,"end":9015.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9015.58409375,"end":9016.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9017.32221875,"end":9019.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9019.735343750002,"end":9026.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9026.485343750002,"end":9029.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9032.57721875,"end":9034.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9035.19284375,"end":9037.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9038.36534375,"end":9045.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9046.11096875,"end":9049.587218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9050.211593750002,"end":9054.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9054.531593750002,"end":9055.105343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9055.40909375,"end":9058.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9059.13846875,"end":9060.657218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9060.657218750002,"end":9060.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9061.534718750001,"end":9061.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9061.973468750002,"end":9063.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9063.37409375,"end":9063.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9063.40784375,"end":9066.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9066.90096875,"end":9068.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9069.60096875,"end":9074.258468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9071.676593750002,"end":9072.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9075.33846875,"end":9075.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9075.794093750003,"end":9075.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9076.40159375,"end":9076.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9076.43534375,"end":9077.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9078.004718750002,"end":9081.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9081.91971875,"end":9092.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9095.36909375,"end":9095.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9095.74034375,"end":9095.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9097.140968750002,"end":9099.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9099.97596875,"end":9103.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9104.22846875,"end":9119.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9120.20909375,"end":9122.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9122.976593750001,"end":9129.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9130.789718750002,"end":9143.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9143.19284375,"end":9148.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9149.031593750002,"end":9153.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9153.48659375,"end":9174.090968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9174.74909375,"end":9176.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9177.48284375,"end":9190.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9190.02096875,"end":9192.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9192.41721875,"end":9193.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9192.92346875,"end":9195.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9195.94409375,"end":9197.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9198.239093750002,"end":9198.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9199.437218750001,"end":9202.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9204.70221875,"end":9209.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9209.579093750002,"end":9210.945968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9210.96284375,"end":9210.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9211.469093750002,"end":9216.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9217.324718750002,"end":9218.45534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9217.76346875,"end":9219.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9220.46346875,"end":9220.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9220.530968750001,"end":9220.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9220.81784375,"end":9223.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9224.58096875,"end":9231.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9231.80346875,"end":9244.155968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9244.34159375,"end":9245.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9245.961593750002,"end":9253.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9254.88846875,"end":9256.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_32","start":9257.31846875,"end":9261.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9265.840343750002,"end":9270.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9281.500343750002,"end":9285.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9284.06534375,"end":9284.976593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9289.00971875,"end":9289.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9291.034718750001,"end":9292.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9292.95846875,"end":9295.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9295.675343750001,"end":9311.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9312.837218750003,"end":9313.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9313.02284375,"end":9313.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9313.613468750002,"end":9321.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9319.03034375,"end":9319.637843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9321.98346875,"end":9349.624718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9350.75534375,"end":9354.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9352.695968750002,"end":9358.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9357.77534375,"end":9364.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9358.956593750001,"end":9359.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9364.879718750002,"end":9369.368468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9369.55409375,"end":9377.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9376.13534375,"end":9391.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9382.78409375,"end":9382.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9382.969718750002,"end":9383.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9383.03721875,"end":9383.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9384.03284375,"end":9385.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9386.53034375,"end":9387.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9387.47534375,"end":9388.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9388.335968750001,"end":9392.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9392.52096875,"end":9396.942218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9397.245968750001,"end":9398.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9397.296593750001,"end":9411.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9400.28346875,"end":9400.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9408.92346875,"end":9413.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9413.969093750002,"end":9427.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9416.399093750002,"end":9417.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9421.934093750002,"end":9422.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9422.49096875,"end":9422.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9425.54534375,"end":9442.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9440.26034375,"end":9515.438468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9442.487843750001,"end":9443.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9443.95596875,"end":9443.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9444.37784375,"end":9444.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9444.41159375,"end":9446.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_14","start":9463.699718750002,"end":9465.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9487.39221875,"end":9487.965968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9487.965968750003,"end":9489.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9490.76721875,"end":9492.066593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9492.066593750002,"end":9492.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9516.062843750002,"end":9568.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9569.421593750001,"end":9570.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9570.77159375,"end":9586.566593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9571.24409375,"end":9572.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9578.027843750002,"end":9578.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9580.89659375,"end":9580.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9580.91346875,"end":9581.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9582.044093750003,"end":9583.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9585.01409375,"end":9591.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9588.355343750001,"end":9622.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9623.219093750002,"end":9641.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9641.207843750002,"end":9649.999718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9650.438468750002,"end":9659.078468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9653.864093750002,"end":9654.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9658.62284375,"end":9659.196593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9659.331593750001,"end":9666.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9662.11596875,"end":9662.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9667.02659375,"end":9671.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9671.97096875,"end":9682.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9672.61221875,"end":9673.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9676.223468750002,"end":9677.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9681.066593750002,"end":9700.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9687.867218750001,"end":9693.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9695.359718750002,"end":9720.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9700.55721875,"end":9700.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9702.97034375,"end":9704.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9704.97846875,"end":9707.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9721.39784375,"end":9741.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9742.59284375,"end":9747.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9748.144718750002,"end":9767.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9768.040343750003,"end":9784.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9783.531593750002,"end":9786.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9786.855968750002,"end":9792.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_09","start":9793.487843750001,"end":9820.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9822.192218750002,"end":9826.815968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9828.16596875,"end":9829.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9836.92409375,"end":9838.577843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":9838.72971875,"end":9839.539718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9843.62346875,"end":9855.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9855.85784375,"end":9877.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9857.44409375,"end":9857.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9857.91659375,"end":9857.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9877.99784375,"end":9878.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9879.499718750001,"end":9880.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9880.883468750002,"end":9881.254718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9881.237843750001,"end":9891.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9886.097843750002,"end":9886.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9891.46409375,"end":9898.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9899.05784375,"end":9904.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9906.415343750003,"end":9912.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9912.524093750002,"end":9913.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9913.90784375,"end":9915.156593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9915.629093750002,"end":9916.219718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9917.890343750001,"end":9921.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9921.40034375,"end":9922.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9922.34534375,"end":9922.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9922.81784375,"end":9924.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9924.488468750002,"end":9927.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9927.47534375,"end":9928.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9927.542843750001,"end":9928.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9928.31909375,"end":9929.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9929.196593750003,"end":9930.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9929.820968750002,"end":9934.832843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9935.32221875,"end":9948.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9948.94034375,"end":9953.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9953.20971875,"end":9953.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9953.53034375,"end":9955.875968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9956.01096875,"end":9956.348468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9956.06159375,"end":9958.407218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9958.12034375,"end":9965.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":9959.352218750002,"end":9959.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9965.49471875,"end":9972.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9972.852218750002,"end":9974.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9974.62409375,"end":9974.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9975.40034375,"end":9976.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":9976.497218750003,"end":9976.800968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9977.290343750003,"end":9980.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9980.14221875,"end":9982.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9983.297843750002,"end":9985.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9986.04846875,"end":9989.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":9989.929718750001,"end":10017.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10016.37284375,"end":10041.449093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10042.20846875,"end":10053.278468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10043.37284375,"end":10043.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10043.47409375,"end":10043.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10047.456593750001,"end":10047.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10052.789093750001,"end":10053.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10053.59909375,"end":10062.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10062.20534375,"end":10064.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10064.753468750001,"end":10066.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10066.96409375,"end":10068.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10069.44471875,"end":10070.625968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10069.883468750002,"end":10070.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10070.89596875,"end":10076.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10076.32971875,"end":10076.464718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10076.464718750001,"end":10079.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10079.60346875,"end":10104.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10086.50534375,"end":10086.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10101.372218750003,"end":10102.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10104.730343750001,"end":10110.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10111.51409375,"end":10114.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10111.530968750001,"end":10114.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10114.36596875,"end":10116.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10114.58534375,"end":10126.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10120.12034375,"end":10120.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10120.15409375,"end":10121.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10126.90409375,"end":10133.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10133.29971875,"end":10133.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10134.210968750001,"end":10136.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10137.09659375,"end":10145.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10145.85471875,"end":10158.207218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10157.160968750002,"end":10157.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10158.66284375,"end":10168.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10168.34909375,"end":10168.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10168.66971875,"end":10180.465343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10180.465343750002,"end":10180.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10180.48221875,"end":10180.515968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10180.515968750002,"end":10183.519718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10180.58346875,"end":10181.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10181.24159375,"end":10181.781593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10182.254093750002,"end":10206.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10206.90846875,"end":10208.190968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10209.000968750002,"end":10212.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10212.46034375,"end":10226.247218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10222.230968750002,"end":10228.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10228.05284375,"end":10276.011593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10275.67409375,"end":10279.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10279.757843750001,"end":10280.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10280.93909375,"end":10294.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10295.56971875,"end":10300.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10301.222843750002,"end":10303.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10303.66971875,"end":10310.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10309.69409375,"end":10309.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10310.976593750001,"end":10311.989093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10311.01034375,"end":10314.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10315.667843750001,"end":10324.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10322.856593750003,"end":10325.219093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10324.71284375,"end":10328.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10325.792843750001,"end":10326.737843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10327.63221875,"end":10329.387218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10328.40846875,"end":10330.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10330.31534375,"end":10336.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10331.09159375,"end":10332.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10333.825343750003,"end":10342.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10338.63471875,"end":10341.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10341.65534375,"end":10344.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10342.75221875,"end":10346.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10347.22409375,"end":10351.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10351.29096875,"end":10351.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10351.61159375,"end":10385.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10353.78846875,"end":10354.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10355.56034375,"end":10357.821593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10368.452843750001,"end":10368.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10371.051593750002,"end":10371.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10371.33846875,"end":10371.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10385.42909375,"end":10396.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10396.81971875,"end":10397.207843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10397.528468750003,"end":10398.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10398.895343750002,"end":10408.868468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10400.61659375,"end":10401.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10401.59534375,"end":10405.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10409.72909375,"end":10410.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10410.99471875,"end":10414.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10415.820968750002,"end":10421.575343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10421.406593750002,"end":10422.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10423.245968750001,"end":10424.477843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10424.27534375,"end":10424.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10427.39721875,"end":10428.359093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10428.899093750002,"end":10429.995968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10431.683468750001,"end":10438.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10435.800968750002,"end":10438.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10438.14659375,"end":10442.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10440.239093750002,"end":10440.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10442.58471875,"end":10444.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10443.917843750001,"end":10475.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10467.019718750002,"end":10467.660968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10470.884093750003,"end":10471.508468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10475.204093750002,"end":10478.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10475.828468750002,"end":10476.300968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10476.925343750001,"end":10482.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10478.49471875,"end":10478.511593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10484.434718750003,"end":10485.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10485.278468750003,"end":10486.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10486.71284375,"end":10492.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10487.52284375,"end":10488.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10493.294093750003,"end":10505.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10505.511593750001,"end":10505.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10505.528468750003,"end":10506.878468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10506.06846875,"end":10506.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10506.91221875,"end":10507.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10507.148468750001,"end":10507.165343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10507.587218750003,"end":10509.645968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10511.35034375,"end":10513.746593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10512.329093750002,"end":10513.020968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10513.527218750001,"end":10518.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10518.505343750003,"end":10518.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10518.79221875,"end":10521.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10520.42909375,"end":10520.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10521.72846875,"end":10522.09971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_30","start":10522.184093750002,"end":10523.601593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10527.449093750001,"end":10527.786593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10528.05659375,"end":10530.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10530.030968750001,"end":10561.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10562.07659375,"end":10578.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_16","start":10578.85034375,"end":10580.520968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10580.520968750003,"end":10598.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10599.437843750002,"end":10601.597843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10600.602218750002,"end":10602.610343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10601.78346875,"end":10601.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":10601.969093750002,"end":10602.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10602.930968750003,"end":10603.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10604.04471875,"end":10610.474093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":10604.247218750003,"end":10604.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10611.48659375,"end":10612.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10625.762843750003,"end":10629.289718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10629.644093750001,"end":10630.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":10631.399093750002,"end":10633.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10634.53784375,"end":10636.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10637.17034375,"end":10643.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10644.02159375,"end":10654.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10654.534718750001,"end":10659.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10660.20471875,"end":10663.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10664.254718750002,"end":10668.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10668.827843750001,"end":10672.320968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10672.742843750002,"end":10677.214718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10677.687218750001,"end":10683.644093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10683.69471875,"end":10691.659718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10692.16596875,"end":10705.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10706.374718750001,"end":10786.058468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10786.547843750002,"end":10788.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10788.77534375,"end":10791.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10793.719718750002,"end":10795.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10795.91346875,"end":10801.347218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10797.347843750002,"end":10798.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10801.11096875,"end":10822.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10822.69409375,"end":10829.71409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10830.28784375,"end":10830.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10831.097843750002,"end":10836.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10836.329093750002,"end":10839.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10837.45971875,"end":10837.797218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10838.99534375,"end":10839.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10839.974093750003,"end":10843.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10840.31159375,"end":10841.020343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10844.15909375,"end":10849.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10848.15846875,"end":10850.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10850.58846875,"end":10850.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10850.925968750002,"end":10852.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10850.95971875,"end":10859.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10852.54596875,"end":10854.469718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10855.60034375,"end":10859.009093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10859.07659375,"end":10867.227218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10863.66659375,"end":10864.172843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10866.383468750002,"end":10874.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10868.08784375,"end":10868.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10869.40409375,"end":10869.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10871.00721875,"end":10871.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":10874.78721875,"end":10875.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10874.88846875,"end":10875.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10875.546593750001,"end":10914.696593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10914.949718750002,"end":10917.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10917.93659375,"end":10938.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":10939.215968750003,"end":10957.980968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10945.40909375,"end":10947.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10948.36221875,"end":10948.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":10957.79534375,"end":11008.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11008.757843750001,"end":11128.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_20","start":11129.27909375,"end":11133.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11130.54471875,"end":11131.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11134.425968750002,"end":11136.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11136.56909375,"end":11144.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11152.718468750001,"end":11154.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11155.047218750002,"end":11155.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11159.687843750002,"end":11159.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11159.72159375,"end":11160.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11160.430343750002,"end":11225.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11180.832218750002,"end":11180.849093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11180.849093750003,"end":11181.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11181.06846875,"end":11181.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11185.92846875,"end":11186.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11210.414093750001,"end":11211.055343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11224.926593750002,"end":11225.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11225.63534375,"end":11229.516593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11229.516593750002,"end":11230.090343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11230.292843750001,"end":11230.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11230.52909375,"end":11230.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11230.630343750003,"end":11230.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11230.69784375,"end":11232.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11233.44846875,"end":11237.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11237.49846875,"end":11238.831593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11239.55721875,"end":11243.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11243.792843750001,"end":11246.695343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11246.914718750002,"end":11247.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11248.112843750001,"end":11256.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11254.862843750001,"end":11257.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11257.360343750002,"end":11258.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11258.76096875,"end":11293.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11261.055968750003,"end":11262.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11263.941593750002,"end":11264.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11271.906593750002,"end":11272.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11272.83471875,"end":11273.340968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11277.47534375,"end":11277.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11282.48721875,"end":11282.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11286.06471875,"end":11286.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11287.414718750002,"end":11288.055968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11292.359093750001,"end":11292.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11292.375968750002,"end":11294.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11293.472843750002,"end":11294.940968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11294.097218750001,"end":11294.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11294.940968750001,"end":11295.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11295.39659375,"end":11301.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11295.41346875,"end":11295.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11297.269718750002,"end":11297.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11301.77534375,"end":11372.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11301.99471875,"end":11302.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11302.29846875,"end":11302.332218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11302.332218750002,"end":11302.382843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11303.715968750003,"end":11303.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11303.969093750002,"end":11304.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11304.10409375,"end":11304.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11363.284718750001,"end":11363.504093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11363.504093750002,"end":11363.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11370.86159375,"end":11371.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11371.469093750002,"end":11379.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11377.594718750002,"end":11424.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11395.684718750003,"end":11396.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11400.76409375,"end":11400.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11402.384093750003,"end":11402.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11424.43971875,"end":11424.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11424.675968750002,"end":11426.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11426.414093750001,"end":11426.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11427.105968750002,"end":11428.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11427.224093750003,"end":11427.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11428.03409375,"end":11433.535343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11428.050968750002,"end":11428.101593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11432.910968750002,"end":11437.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11437.399718750003,"end":11446.613468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11437.41659375,"end":11437.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11439.67784375,"end":11440.454093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11445.145343750002,"end":11449.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11449.75221875,"end":11452.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11452.215968750003,"end":11459.320343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11459.55659375,"end":11462.661593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11459.910968750002,"end":11495.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11464.922843750002,"end":11465.496593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11466.74534375,"end":11467.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11467.04909375,"end":11467.082843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11471.33534375,"end":11471.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11479.08096875,"end":11479.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11479.48596875,"end":11479.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11479.87409375,"end":11480.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11480.02596875,"end":11480.565968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11480.565968750001,"end":11480.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11484.700343750003,"end":11486.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11488.04159375,"end":11488.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11490.488468750002,"end":11491.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11491.973468750002,"end":11492.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11492.47971875,"end":11492.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11495.48346875,"end":11504.528468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11496.985343750002,"end":11497.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11497.356593750003,"end":11497.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11497.57596875,"end":11497.677218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11497.677218750003,"end":11497.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11501.254718750002,"end":11505.051593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_23","start":11505.051593750002,"end":11522.618468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11508.86534375,"end":11511.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11514.88971875,"end":11514.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11518.61909375,"end":11518.956593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11523.917843750001,"end":11527.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11538.059093750002,"end":11540.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11540.25284375,"end":11541.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11544.89346875,"end":11552.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11546.26034375,"end":11547.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":11547.222218750001,"end":11547.340343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11547.340343750002,"end":11547.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11547.863468750002,"end":11548.184093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":11548.184093750002,"end":11548.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11548.234718750002,"end":11548.386593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11552.993468750003,"end":11557.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11557.97159375,"end":11562.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11563.219718750002,"end":11564.097218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11564.839718750001,"end":11567.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11566.72971875,"end":11568.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11568.484718750002,"end":11569.159718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11569.075343750003,"end":11569.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11569.159718750001,"end":11569.328468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11569.328468750002,"end":11569.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11569.66596875,"end":11574.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11575.69034375,"end":11582.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11578.440968750001,"end":11579.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11581.782218750002,"end":11582.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11583.21659375,"end":11583.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11584.11096875,"end":11593.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11594.421593750001,"end":11596.075343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11596.46346875,"end":11610.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11600.90159375,"end":11601.222218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11611.988468750002,"end":11617.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11615.17784375,"end":11615.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11615.481593750003,"end":11615.785343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11618.367218750001,"end":11621.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11622.07971875,"end":11622.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11622.99096875,"end":11624.121593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11624.121593750002,"end":11627.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11627.327843750001,"end":11629.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11628.019718750002,"end":11630.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11630.01096875,"end":11633.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11634.077843750001,"end":11635.360343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11634.617843750002,"end":11638.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11636.32221875,"end":11638.161593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11638.39784375,"end":11640.355343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11640.355343750001,"end":11640.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11640.625343750002,"end":11644.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11644.675343750001,"end":11646.312218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11646.480968750002,"end":11648.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11648.438468750002,"end":11649.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11649.04596875,"end":11651.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11652.30284375,"end":11652.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11652.960968750001,"end":11655.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11655.32346875,"end":11655.37409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11655.37409375,"end":11655.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11655.79596875,"end":11657.770343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11657.78721875,"end":11658.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11658.64784375,"end":11661.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11659.137218750002,"end":11659.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11660.875343750002,"end":11662.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11663.17034375,"end":11664.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11664.85784375,"end":11667.405968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11668.03034375,"end":11671.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11670.949718750002,"end":11674.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11675.30346875,"end":11682.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11683.25159375,"end":11684.230343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11685.141593750002,"end":11686.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11686.42409375,"end":11688.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11686.778468750003,"end":11686.879718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11689.05659375,"end":11696.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11694.96284375,"end":11697.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11697.03846875,"end":11703.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11700.160343750002,"end":11700.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11704.024718750003,"end":11707.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11707.21409375,"end":11708.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11707.83846875,"end":11709.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11709.89721875,"end":11719.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11713.238468750002,"end":11713.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11719.95471875,"end":11722.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11722.92471875,"end":11724.257843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11725.38846875,"end":11729.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11729.337218750003,"end":11733.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11732.03721875,"end":11732.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11733.117218750001,"end":11733.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11733.859718750002,"end":11740.255343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11736.188468750002,"end":11736.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11740.255343750003,"end":11742.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11741.200343750003,"end":11749.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11748.827843750001,"end":11753.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11752.590968750003,"end":11752.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11753.70471875,"end":11756.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11756.97846875,"end":11757.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11757.02909375,"end":11761.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11762.58096875,"end":11766.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11766.42846875,"end":11766.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11766.68159375,"end":11775.321593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11771.01846875,"end":11771.676593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11775.91221875,"end":11787.690968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11781.210968750001,"end":11781.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11781.379718750002,"end":11781.784718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11785.024718750003,"end":11785.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11787.62346875,"end":11787.910343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11787.910343750002,"end":11797.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11792.04471875,"end":11792.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11792.078468750002,"end":11792.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11792.129093750002,"end":11792.145968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11792.26409375,"end":11792.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11796.972218750001,"end":11797.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11797.54596875,"end":11797.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11797.96784375,"end":11798.136593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11798.136593750001,"end":11798.153468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11798.153468750003,"end":11798.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11798.204093750002,"end":11800.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11798.22096875,"end":11818.234718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11802.70971875,"end":11802.844718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_17","start":11802.844718750002,"end":11803.45221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":11803.45221875,"end":11803.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11818.234718750002,"end":11818.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11818.79159375,"end":11819.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11819.06159375,"end":11821.356593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11820.52971875,"end":11827.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11825.457218750002,"end":11834.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11830.047218750002,"end":11830.688468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11833.995968750001,"end":11836.071593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11835.34596875,"end":11837.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11837.08409375,"end":11840.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11839.34534375,"end":11856.000968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11856.11909375,"end":11860.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11862.02534375,"end":11867.18909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11864.809718750003,"end":11868.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11868.167843750001,"end":11875.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11875.407218750002,"end":11878.934093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11880.452843750001,"end":11881.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11882.24159375,"end":11887.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11887.540343750003,"end":11887.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11887.793468750002,"end":11888.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11888.23221875,"end":11891.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11891.30346875,"end":11891.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11891.961593750002,"end":11898.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11898.30659375,"end":11900.669093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11901.31034375,"end":11902.289093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11902.10346875,"end":11902.137218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11902.137218750002,"end":11902.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11902.20471875,"end":11902.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11902.62659375,"end":11905.782218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11906.01846875,"end":11909.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":11907.68909375,"end":11908.313468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11908.313468750002,"end":11908.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11910.895343750002,"end":11913.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11914.540343750003,"end":11914.962218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11915.063468750002,"end":11924.024093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11918.809718750003,"end":11919.012218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11923.079093750002,"end":11923.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11923.51784375,"end":11923.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11924.715968750003,"end":11931.719093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11927.48346875,"end":11927.989718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11928.867218750001,"end":11929.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11931.719093750002,"end":11946.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11944.122218750003,"end":11944.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11945.52284375,"end":11946.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11947.176593750002,"end":11950.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11950.83846875,"end":11953.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11955.040343750003,"end":11955.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11955.95159375,"end":11961.402218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11961.503468750001,"end":11961.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11962.245968750001,"end":11964.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11964.844718750002,"end":11968.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11968.995968750001,"end":11973.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11973.50159375,"end":11977.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11978.14221875,"end":11979.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11978.31096875,"end":11978.445968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11979.00284375,"end":11980.487843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11979.930968750003,"end":11980.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11980.504718750002,"end":11984.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11983.05284375,"end":11983.440968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11984.031593750002,"end":11987.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11987.102843750003,"end":11987.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11988.23346875,"end":11990.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11990.140343750001,"end":11994.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11992.48596875,"end":11992.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11992.70534375,"end":11992.722218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":11992.722218750001,"end":11992.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":11992.75596875,"end":11992.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11994.39284375,"end":11998.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":11998.544093750003,"end":12001.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12001.598468750002,"end":12004.281593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12005.125343750002,"end":12005.665343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12005.51346875,"end":12005.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12005.58096875,"end":12006.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12005.98596875,"end":12006.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12006.82971875,"end":12006.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12006.863468750002,"end":12006.880343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12006.981593750003,"end":12009.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12010.22159375,"end":12012.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12011.31846875,"end":12016.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12016.718468750001,"end":12017.089718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12017.309093750002,"end":12017.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12017.34284375,"end":12017.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12017.96721875,"end":12018.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12018.574718750002,"end":12019.469093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12019.519718750002,"end":12021.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12020.24534375,"end":12020.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12020.852843750003,"end":12040.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12026.050343750001,"end":12026.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12026.65784375,"end":12026.691593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12027.552218750003,"end":12027.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12027.56909375,"end":12027.653468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12027.653468750003,"end":12028.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12028.969718750002,"end":12030.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12031.652843750002,"end":12031.855343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12036.445343750001,"end":12036.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12036.52971875,"end":12036.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12037.660343750002,"end":12037.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12037.89659375,"end":12037.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12037.91346875,"end":12038.453468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12038.453468750002,"end":12038.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12039.31409375,"end":12040.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12040.02284375,"end":12040.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12040.630343750003,"end":12044.680343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12052.03784375,"end":12053.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12053.40471875,"end":12054.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12054.535343750002,"end":12055.649093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12056.77971875,"end":12061.757843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12058.112843750001,"end":12058.129718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12058.129718750002,"end":12058.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12058.754093750002,"end":12058.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12058.770968750003,"end":12058.78784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12062.43284375,"end":12063.445343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12062.601593750001,"end":12067.191593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12067.191593750002,"end":12068.980343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12067.86659375,"end":12070.07721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12070.785968750002,"end":12073.047218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12071.17409375,"end":12071.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12071.79846875,"end":12075.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12073.587218750003,"end":12077.046593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12077.14784375,"end":12078.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12077.316593750002,"end":12079.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12079.544093750003,"end":12080.860343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12080.08409375,"end":12081.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12082.024718750003,"end":12083.070968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12084.72471875,"end":12087.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12084.74159375,"end":12085.112843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12087.25596875,"end":12089.297843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12089.567843750003,"end":12090.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12089.68596875,"end":12091.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12090.867218750001,"end":12095.052218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12093.128468750001,"end":12097.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12097.617218750001,"end":12102.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12102.91596875,"end":12104.907218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12105.430343750002,"end":12132.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12132.76784375,"end":12138.218468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12135.40034375,"end":12135.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12135.41721875,"end":12135.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12135.45096875,"end":12135.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12137.10471875,"end":12137.172218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12137.172218750002,"end":12137.374718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12137.374718750001,"end":12137.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12137.391593750002,"end":12137.442218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12137.442218750002,"end":12137.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12137.62784375,"end":12138.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12138.640343750001,"end":12138.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12138.707843750002,"end":12139.770968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12138.977843750003,"end":12139.028468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12139.028468750003,"end":12139.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12139.602218750002,"end":12139.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12139.66971875,"end":12139.754093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12139.770968750003,"end":12139.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12139.973468750002,"end":12151.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12140.125343750002,"end":12141.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12141.47534375,"end":12141.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12152.427218750003,"end":12164.222843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12156.02159375,"end":12156.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_26","start":12156.03846875,"end":12156.325343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12156.325343750003,"end":12156.375968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12164.695343750001,"end":12165.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12165.809093750002,"end":12173.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12175.309718750003,"end":12177.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12178.245968750001,"end":12179.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12180.422843750002,"end":12181.840343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12181.01346875,"end":12181.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12181.97534375,"end":12183.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12183.12284375,"end":12186.852218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12184.70909375,"end":12185.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12187.03784375,"end":12206.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12187.155968750001,"end":12187.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12207.23721875,"end":12207.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12208.35096875,"end":12210.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12210.56159375,"end":12212.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12212.18159375,"end":12212.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12212.62034375,"end":12214.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12212.65409375,"end":12212.687843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12215.067218750002,"end":12221.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12218.56034375,"end":12218.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12222.019718750002,"end":12225.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12224.16284375,"end":12224.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12225.52971875,"end":12230.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12231.13221875,"end":12244.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12245.391593750002,"end":12245.425343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12245.425343750001,"end":12246.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12245.712218750003,"end":12245.762843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12246.74159375,"end":12250.774718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12246.758468750002,"end":12247.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12248.85096875,"end":12249.188468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12250.386593750001,"end":12259.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12259.583468750003,"end":12273.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12273.47159375,"end":12274.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12274.079093750002,"end":12276.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12276.762218750002,"end":12281.993468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12282.17909375,"end":12288.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12287.680343750002,"end":12287.950343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12289.469093750002,"end":12295.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12295.864718750003,"end":12296.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12296.92784375,"end":12297.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12297.29909375,"end":12297.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12298.83471875,"end":12299.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12299.52659375,"end":12299.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12300.04971875,"end":12300.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12300.87659375,"end":12316.992218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12306.816593750002,"end":12307.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12317.71784375,"end":12328.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12320.012843750003,"end":12320.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12328.922843750002,"end":12332.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12332.48346875,"end":12332.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12333.462218750003,"end":12338.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12339.030968750001,"end":12341.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12341.140343750001,"end":12344.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12344.734718750002,"end":12352.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12350.87721875,"end":12351.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12352.24409375,"end":12352.530968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12354.40409375,"end":12355.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12355.652843750002,"end":12391.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12356.56409375,"end":12356.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12378.282218750002,"end":12378.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12385.015343750001,"end":12385.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12386.83784375,"end":12387.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12389.993468750003,"end":12390.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12392.406593750002,"end":12402.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12392.44034375,"end":12392.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12395.02221875,"end":12395.039093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12395.039093750001,"end":12395.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12396.405968750001,"end":12396.675968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12398.59971875,"end":12398.886593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12402.177218750003,"end":12402.700343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12402.76784375,"end":12402.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12402.97034375,"end":12411.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12402.98721875,"end":12403.915343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12406.429718750001,"end":12406.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12408.57284375,"end":12408.977843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12412.133468750002,"end":12417.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12417.465968750003,"end":12417.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12417.499718750001,"end":12417.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12417.550343750001,"end":12417.870968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12417.820343750001,"end":12419.457218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12419.085968750001,"end":12421.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12421.043468750002,"end":12425.160968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12422.27534375,"end":12422.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12423.49034375,"end":12424.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12424.519718750002,"end":12425.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12425.262218750002,"end":12428.384093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_25","start":12426.81471875,"end":12435.758468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12431.860343750002,"end":12432.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12436.16346875,"end":12436.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12437.15909375,"end":12439.285343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12439.79159375,"end":12446.305343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12452.380343750003,"end":12456.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12460.51409375,"end":12532.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12475.70159375,"end":12475.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12532.92471875,"end":12534.949718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12535.894718750002,"end":12550.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12550.69409375,"end":12551.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12551.250968750002,"end":12599.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12599.95221875,"end":12600.593468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12600.593468750001,"end":12600.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12600.644093750001,"end":12611.933468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12602.145968750003,"end":12602.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12603.495968750001,"end":12603.968468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12612.456593750001,"end":12612.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12612.65909375,"end":12613.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12613.33409375,"end":12613.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12613.722218750001,"end":12624.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12624.488468750002,"end":12625.399718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12625.399718750003,"end":12625.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12625.99034375,"end":12627.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12627.42471875,"end":12630.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12630.715343750002,"end":12631.59284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12631.59284375,"end":12631.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12631.62659375,"end":12632.031593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12632.234093750001,"end":12635.085968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12634.44471875,"end":12639.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12638.680343750002,"end":12642.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12642.86534375,"end":12642.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12642.88221875,"end":12652.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12643.70909375,"end":12645.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12646.274093750002,"end":12646.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12646.594718750002,"end":12646.628468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12647.590343750002,"end":12647.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12647.92784375,"end":12647.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12647.94471875,"end":12647.961593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12651.52221875,"end":12652.922843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12653.20971875,"end":12663.520343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12666.16971875,"end":12666.50721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12666.50721875,"end":12667.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12667.097843750002,"end":12669.899093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12669.899093750002,"end":12670.118468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12670.118468750003,"end":12675.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12676.125968750002,"end":12677.796593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12678.015968750002,"end":12691.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12692.27534375,"end":12693.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12693.86159375,"end":12700.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12701.25284375,"end":12703.395968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12703.395968750003,"end":12703.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12703.56471875,"end":12705.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12705.74159375,"end":12707.918468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12708.42471875,"end":12711.833468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12711.090968750003,"end":12745.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12711.95159375,"end":12712.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12713.672843750002,"end":12714.617843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12715.731593750003,"end":12715.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12717.60471875,"end":12717.925343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12728.99534375,"end":12729.383468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12746.59596875,"end":12747.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12748.739093750002,"end":12755.708468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12756.29909375,"end":12757.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12758.864093750002,"end":12766.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12767.06534375,"end":12772.110968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12771.570968750002,"end":12793.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":12783.282218750002,"end":12783.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12793.15409375,"end":12793.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12793.37346875,"end":12793.559093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12793.559093750002,"end":12810.585968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12794.622218750003,"end":12796.242218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12796.242218750001,"end":12796.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12796.259093750003,"end":12796.309718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12797.102843750003,"end":12797.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12797.11971875,"end":12797.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12800.427218750003,"end":12801.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12801.254093750002,"end":12801.270968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12802.28346875,"end":12803.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12811.547843750002,"end":12815.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12816.32346875,"end":12826.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12826.48221875,"end":12826.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12826.85346875,"end":12826.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12827.460968750001,"end":12837.164093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12837.67034375,"end":12838.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12838.56471875,"end":12839.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_13","start":12839.08784375,"end":12849.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":12844.09971875,"end":12844.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12844.11659375,"end":12844.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12844.94346875,"end":12846.664718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":12848.95971875,"end":12851.204093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12849.027218750001,"end":12850.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12851.946593750003,"end":12854.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12854.798468750003,"end":12856.941593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12857.02596875,"end":12872.820968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_18","start":12878.980343750001,"end":12879.570968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12892.058468750001,"end":12895.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":12898.926593750002,"end":12899.129093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_12","start":12899.129093750002,"end":12899.280968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12908.207843750002,"end":12914.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12922.028468750003,"end":12922.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12923.024093750002,"end":12942.599093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12942.93659375,"end":12947.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12947.543468750002,"end":12956.85846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12956.925968750002,"end":12959.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12959.946593750003,"end":12966.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12966.76409375,"end":12988.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12989.190968750001,"end":12998.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":12998.640968750002,"end":13002.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13003.079093750002,"end":13008.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13008.867218750001,"end":13012.680968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13013.01846875,"end":13015.634093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13015.785968750002,"end":13017.55784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13017.777218750001,"end":13021.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13021.82721875,"end":13028.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13027.902218750001,"end":13032.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13033.285343750002,"end":13034.652218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13034.399093750002,"end":13048.050968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13048.320968750002,"end":13053.484718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13053.40034375,"end":13057.230968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13057.129718750002,"end":13059.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13058.125343750002,"end":13059.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13060.335968750001,"end":13061.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13060.94346875,"end":13064.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13064.470343750003,"end":13068.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13067.676593750002,"end":13069.110968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13068.317843750003,"end":13070.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13069.465343750002,"end":13082.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13082.30721875,"end":13082.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13082.610968750003,"end":13084.079093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13084.298468750003,"end":13084.433468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13084.46721875,"end":13087.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13085.766593750002,"end":13088.922218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13088.68596875,"end":13093.765343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13091.824718750002,"end":13098.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13098.422843750002,"end":13103.535968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13100.12721875,"end":13102.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13104.46409375,"end":13105.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13105.544093750003,"end":13108.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13108.29471875,"end":13108.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13108.952843750001,"end":13113.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13111.58534375,"end":13116.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13117.22159375,"end":13118.672843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13117.930343750002,"end":13122.23346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13123.465343750002,"end":13124.849093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13125.13596875,"end":13131.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13131.71721875,"end":13134.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13134.77159375,"end":13135.429718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13135.480343750001,"end":13141.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13142.31471875,"end":13143.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13144.22159375,"end":13145.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13144.94721875,"end":13152.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13152.777218750001,"end":13154.852843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13157.164718750002,"end":13157.704718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13159.054718750001,"end":13163.189093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13164.134093750003,"end":13174.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13175.355968750002,"end":13177.718468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13175.845343750003,"end":13177.364093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13177.836593750002,"end":13178.005343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13177.92096875,"end":13178.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13179.422843750002,"end":13182.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13183.844093750002,"end":13185.480968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":13184.56971875,"end":13184.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13184.586593750002,"end":13185.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13185.49784375,"end":13187.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13187.539718750002,"end":13188.434093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13188.602843750003,"end":13190.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13190.94846875,"end":13195.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13196.348468750002,"end":13201.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13202.76096875,"end":13204.617218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13204.81971875,"end":13208.363468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13208.59971875,"end":13211.586593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13213.004093750002,"end":13215.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13216.277843750002,"end":13230.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13230.63846875,"end":13234.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13235.22846875,"end":13240.054718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13240.375343750002,"end":13242.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13242.484718750002,"end":13246.720343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13248.32346875,"end":13250.179718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13249.454093750002,"end":13251.192218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13251.445343750001,"end":13255.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13255.64721875,"end":13270.109093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13271.47596875,"end":13272.117218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":13272.62346875,"end":13278.816593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13275.407843750003,"end":13275.914093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13278.816593750002,"end":13279.238468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13279.440968750001,"end":13279.862843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13281.044093750003,"end":13297.598468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13297.750343750002,"end":13299.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13301.36159375,"end":13302.542843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13301.36159375,"end":13304.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13304.348468750002,"end":13307.082218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13307.80784375,"end":13315.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13316.02596875,"end":13317.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13316.59971875,"end":13318.422218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13318.962218750003,"end":13319.755343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13322.08409375,"end":13323.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13323.113468750002,"end":13325.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13328.04096875,"end":13332.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13332.58034375,"end":13333.778468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13338.520343750002,"end":13340.629718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13339.75221875,"end":13349.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13349.337218750003,"end":13353.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13350.72096875,"end":13352.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13353.876593750003,"end":13358.972843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13358.85471875,"end":13363.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13363.54596875,"end":13366.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13365.722843750002,"end":13370.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13370.751593750003,"end":13373.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13373.434718750003,"end":13374.430343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13374.430343750002,"end":13378.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13378.952843750001,"end":13382.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13382.58096875,"end":13386.934718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13387.32284375,"end":13399.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13400.02971875,"end":13403.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13401.683468750001,"end":13402.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13403.77596875,"end":13411.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13411.184093750002,"end":13413.141593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13411.403468750003,"end":13427.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13427.485343750002,"end":13439.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13427.637218750002,"end":13428.649718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13434.859718750002,"end":13437.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13439.88846875,"end":13453.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13453.70909375,"end":13461.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13461.67409375,"end":13463.800343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13464.914093750001,"end":13467.124718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13469.605343750001,"end":13470.027218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13470.364718750003,"end":13480.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13479.54471875,"end":13485.180968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13481.164718750002,"end":13481.434718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13485.77159375,"end":13491.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13492.11659375,"end":13498.731593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13499.96346875,"end":13513.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13514.03721875,"end":13526.828468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13527.38534375,"end":13549.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13548.73221875,"end":13555.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13555.17846875,"end":13558.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13555.634093750003,"end":13556.410343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13559.17784375,"end":13569.167843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13569.40409375,"end":13571.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13572.762218750002,"end":13576.626593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13576.559093750002,"end":13588.793468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13588.793468750002,"end":13591.695968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13590.24471875,"end":13591.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13591.56096875,"end":13594.750343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13591.695968750002,"end":13591.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13592.50596875,"end":13594.024718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13594.024718750003,"end":13594.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13594.63221875,"end":13594.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13594.750343750002,"end":13594.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13595.25659375,"end":13602.040343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13602.47909375,"end":13605.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13605.11159375,"end":13608.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13608.351593750001,"end":13626.863468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13627.656593750002,"end":13636.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13636.70159375,"end":13651.61909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13651.855343750001,"end":13662.874718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13663.33034375,"end":13686.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13686.989093750002,"end":13696.945343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13696.945343750001,"end":13707.137843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13707.25596875,"end":13716.790343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13717.06034375,"end":13771.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13772.07284375,"end":13777.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13772.24159375,"end":13772.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13777.742843750002,"end":13778.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13778.02971875,"end":13778.367218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13778.367218750001,"end":13778.468468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_24","start":13778.468468750001,"end":13779.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_19","start":13778.50221875,"end":13778.519093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13778.97471875,"end":13779.059093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13780.425968750002,"end":13791.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13791.884093750003,"end":13794.567218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13802.86971875,"end":13804.523468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13804.77659375,"end":13805.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":13810.63221875,"end":13810.969718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13810.969718750002,"end":13811.290343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13811.712218750003,"end":13813.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13814.20971875,"end":13815.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13816.403468750003,"end":13816.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13816.53846875,"end":13816.555343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13816.555343750002,"end":13816.605968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13816.605968750002,"end":13816.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13817.53409375,"end":13817.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13818.20909375,"end":13825.887218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13826.258468750002,"end":13827.895343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13828.300343750001,"end":13830.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13830.66284375,"end":13833.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13833.801593750002,"end":13834.476593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13834.814093750003,"end":13836.974093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13837.227218750002,"end":13837.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13838.239718750003,"end":13839.707843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13839.876593750003,"end":13846.187843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13846.69409375,"end":13847.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13847.58846875,"end":13848.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13848.044093750003,"end":13857.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13857.39284375,"end":13857.747218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13857.96659375,"end":13858.017218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13858.067843750003,"end":13865.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13861.83096875,"end":13862.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13863.180968750003,"end":13863.602843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13864.530968750001,"end":13867.484093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13867.703468750002,"end":13869.930968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13867.73721875,"end":13868.142218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13870.09971875,"end":13870.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13870.52159375,"end":13872.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13871.31471875,"end":13872.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13872.867218750001,"end":13887.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13876.22534375,"end":13876.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13881.945968750002,"end":13882.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13887.88596875,"end":13900.829093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13888.425968750002,"end":13889.759093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13900.05284375,"end":13904.558468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13901.06534375,"end":13901.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13902.617843750002,"end":13903.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13904.609093750001,"end":13905.081593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13905.081593750001,"end":13913.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13911.98346875,"end":13922.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13923.036593750003,"end":13923.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13924.234718750002,"end":13925.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13924.26846875,"end":13924.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13925.43284375,"end":13926.985343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13926.15846875,"end":13928.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13928.11596875,"end":13928.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13928.63909375,"end":13928.655968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13928.655968750001,"end":13929.077843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13928.672843750002,"end":13929.094718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13929.21284375,"end":13930.664093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13931.457218750002,"end":13969.004093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13940.789093750001,"end":13940.856593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13940.856593750003,"end":13940.957843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13940.957843750002,"end":13941.379718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13969.324718750002,"end":13975.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":13975.21409375,"end":13975.602218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13975.551593750002,"end":13977.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13977.67784375,"end":13980.344093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13980.64784375,"end":13985.929718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13986.75659375,"end":13987.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13987.49909375,"end":13989.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13989.08534375,"end":13992.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":13989.152843750002,"end":13989.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13992.56159375,"end":13993.540343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13994.367218750001,"end":13995.329093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13995.632843750001,"end":13996.594718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":13997.219093750002,"end":14010.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14010.837218750003,"end":14018.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14018.97096875,"end":14019.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14019.13971875,"end":14019.224093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14019.780968750001,"end":14020.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14021.19846875,"end":14022.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14024.489093750002,"end":14025.231593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14025.434093750002,"end":14031.981593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14032.26846875,"end":14038.512218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14039.11971875,"end":14043.794093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14042.950343750003,"end":14043.034718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14043.034718750001,"end":14045.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14043.895343750002,"end":14044.367843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14045.12721875,"end":14047.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14047.793468750002,"end":14050.864718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14050.56096875,"end":14051.016593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14051.016593750002,"end":14051.421593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14051.60721875,"end":14066.777843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14067.503468750001,"end":14068.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14069.29221875,"end":14076.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14070.23721875,"end":14070.254093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_31","start":14070.254093750002,"end":14070.642218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14077.155968750001,"end":14081.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14082.454718750003,"end":14082.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14082.79221875,"end":14094.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14094.030968750001,"end":14094.452843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14094.300968750002,"end":14102.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14102.77221875,"end":14103.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14103.07596875,"end":14130.177218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14130.852218750002,"end":14136.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14136.134093750003,"end":14136.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14136.454718750003,"end":14150.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14150.157218750002,"end":14150.579093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14150.528468750003,"end":14153.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14154.02159375,"end":14156.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14159.370968750001,"end":14159.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14159.759093750003,"end":14159.792843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14159.843468750001,"end":14160.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14160.09659375,"end":14160.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14160.87284375,"end":14160.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14160.94034375,"end":14162.492843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14162.492843750002,"end":14162.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14163.40409375,"end":14163.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14163.42096875,"end":14167.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14167.825343750003,"end":14169.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14169.884093750003,"end":14173.259093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14169.985343750002,"end":14170.019093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_22","start":14170.019093750001,"end":14170.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14171.43659375,"end":14172.347843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14173.259093750003,"end":14176.769093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14175.28409375,"end":14175.891593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14176.769093750001,"end":14179.249718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14179.60409375,"end":14180.430968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14180.582843750002,"end":14180.633468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14180.633468750002,"end":14180.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14180.70096875,"end":14180.734718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14181.055343750002,"end":14181.797843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14182.118468750003,"end":14183.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14182.489718750003,"end":14184.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14183.907218750002,"end":14184.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14185.020968750003,"end":14185.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14186.219093750002,"end":14194.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14194.31909375,"end":14194.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14194.825343750003,"end":14194.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14195.669093750003,"end":14197.609718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14197.980968750002,"end":14198.132843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14199.145343750002,"end":14199.398468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14199.617843750002,"end":14200.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14200.47846875,"end":14201.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14201.86221875,"end":14207.329718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14207.515343750001,"end":14212.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14212.392218750003,"end":14212.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14212.847843750002,"end":14214.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14215.851593750001,"end":14216.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14216.05409375,"end":14233.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14217.218468750001,"end":14217.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14233.418468750002,"end":14244.015968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14244.47159375,"end":14249.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14249.922218750002,"end":14250.242843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14250.968468750001,"end":14252.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14253.398468750001,"end":14270.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14271.42096875,"end":14282.524718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14283.047843750002,"end":14287.148468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14287.519718750002,"end":14288.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14289.46034375,"end":14290.472843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14291.805968750003,"end":14295.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14292.04221875,"end":14293.527218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14293.695968750002,"end":14295.130343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14296.04159375,"end":14296.497218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14296.73346875,"end":14297.391593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14298.387218750002,"end":14310.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14310.63846875,"end":14319.210968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14319.81846875,"end":14321.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14321.050343750001,"end":14321.640968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14321.320343750001,"end":14326.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14326.93971875,"end":14327.192843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14327.597843750002,"end":14328.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14328.660968750002,"end":14329.707218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14330.26409375,"end":14338.212218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14339.07284375,"end":14340.203468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14340.203468750002,"end":14340.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14340.38909375,"end":14340.422843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14340.456593750001,"end":14348.809718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14342.785343750002,"end":14343.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14348.809718750003,"end":14358.782843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14348.82659375,"end":14349.906593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14350.480343750001,"end":14351.273468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14354.95221875,"end":14354.969093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14354.969093750002,"end":14355.036593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14355.036593750003,"end":14355.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14355.94784375,"end":14355.964718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14357.348468750002,"end":14357.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14357.38221875,"end":14357.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14358.782843750003,"end":14359.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14359.05284375,"end":14361.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14361.17909375,"end":14361.465968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14361.415343750003,"end":14362.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14362.69784375,"end":14366.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14367.96284375,"end":14369.329718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14369.65034375,"end":14382.711593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14382.94784375,"end":14383.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14384.095343750003,"end":14385.411593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14386.035968750002,"end":14393.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14388.786593750003,"end":14389.208468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14394.254093750002,"end":14401.375343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14402.421593750001,"end":14407.26471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14407.973468750002,"end":14409.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14409.981593750003,"end":14418.267218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14414.06534375,"end":14414.402843750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14414.402843750002,"end":14414.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14418.58784375,"end":14424.730343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14424.730343750001,"end":14425.202843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14425.03409375,"end":14432.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14432.56034375,"end":14439.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14440.339718750001,"end":14441.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14441.01471875,"end":14441.605343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14441.554718750001,"end":14451.477218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14452.000343750002,"end":14454.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14454.902843750002,"end":14460.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14460.72471875,"end":14463.390968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14462.294093750003,"end":14462.749718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14463.32346875,"end":14472.149093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14466.546593750001,"end":14467.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14472.149093750002,"end":14472.419093750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14472.63846875,"end":14477.211593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14477.464718750001,"end":14483.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14483.60721875,"end":14484.282218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14484.636593750001,"end":14486.847218750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14487.30284375,"end":14489.395343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14489.699093750001,"end":14490.070343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14490.42471875,"end":14492.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14493.090968750003,"end":14497.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14495.571593750003,"end":14495.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14495.58846875,"end":14495.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14497.17471875,"end":14504.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14497.37721875,"end":14497.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14504.751593750003,"end":14510.168468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14510.421593750001,"end":14512.817843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14512.868468750003,"end":14517.829718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14517.914093750001,"end":14521.660343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14521.96409375,"end":14522.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14522.554718750001,"end":14526.098468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14526.098468750002,"end":14526.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14526.250343750002,"end":14535.109718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14530.519718750002,"end":14530.890968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14535.61596875,"end":14540.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14537.809718750003,"end":14538.315968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14538.315968750001,"end":14538.552218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14538.552218750003,"end":14538.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14540.62784375,"end":14554.735343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14544.390968750002,"end":14544.559718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14552.33909375,"end":14552.355968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14552.37284375,"end":14552.423468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14554.92096875,"end":14564.067218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14564.438468750002,"end":14583.372218750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14565.535343750002,"end":14566.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14570.614718750003,"end":14570.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14576.74034375,"end":14576.774093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14576.774093750002,"end":14577.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14581.684718750003,"end":14584.958468750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14583.59159375,"end":14583.625343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14585.414093750001,"end":14585.835968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14585.582843750002,"end":14588.839718750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14588.839718750001,"end":14605.157843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14596.46721875,"end":14596.973468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14597.85096875,"end":14598.171593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14600.80409375,"end":14601.175343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14603.58846875,"end":14603.925968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14604.786593750003,"end":14605.579718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_28","start":14605.579718750003,"end":14608.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14606.575343750003,"end":14607.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14608.12784375,"end":14612.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14619.282218750002,"end":14622.505343750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14622.52221875,"end":14623.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14626.859093750001,"end":14658.364718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14627.095343750003,"end":14627.753468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14641.81034375,"end":14641.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14642.02971875,"end":14642.114093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14658.28034375,"end":14658.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":14658.364718750003,"end":14658.668468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14658.668468750002,"end":14708.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14708.53409375,"end":14716.785968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14717.140343750001,"end":14721.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14721.76409375,"end":14792.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14731.450343750003,"end":14731.905968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14756.94846875,"end":14757.285968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14792.79096875,"end":14793.550343750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14793.128468750001,"end":14796.030968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14796.030968750001,"end":14796.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14796.739718750003,"end":14796.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14796.75659375,"end":14797.296593750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14796.97596875,"end":14801.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14797.296593750001,"end":14797.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14801.987843750001,"end":14802.848468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14803.422218750002,"end":14814.120968750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14814.120968750001,"end":14814.239093750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14814.239093750002,"end":14821.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14821.934093750002,"end":14836.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14837.40846875,"end":14848.039718750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14848.17471875,"end":14849.507843750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14849.659718750001,"end":14850.773468750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14850.874718750001,"end":14857.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14857.844093750002,"end":14859.582218750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14859.582218750002,"end":14859.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14860.29096875,"end":14868.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14867.142218750003,"end":14867.175968750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14867.175968750002,"end":14867.614718750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14869.11659375,"end":14873.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14870.939093750003,"end":14872.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":14873.41971875,"end":14873.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14874.449093750001,"end":14896.859093750001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_08","start":14897.48346875,"end":14902.883468750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14925.968468750001,"end":14926.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14926.15409375,"end":14926.305968750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14926.305968750003,"end":14926.626593750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14926.727843750003,"end":14927.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14927.85846875,"end":14927.875343750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14927.976593750001,"end":14928.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14928.465968750003,"end":14930.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14930.01846875,"end":14930.102843750003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14930.102843750003,"end":14930.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14931.030968750001,"end":14931.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14931.638468750003,"end":14932.836593750002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14932.836593750002,"end":14932.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_07","start":14933.96721875,"end":14934.06846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":117.961,"end":121.123,"text":"現在介紹在場委員及列席官員。陳昭芝委員。林月晴委員。"},{"start":146.994,"end":166.079,"text":"王振旭委員好,那我們今天列席官員有勞動部部長許明春許部長勞動力發展署蔡萌良署長職業安全衛生署周子蓮署長勞工保險局白立貞局長勞動關係司王厚偉司長勞動條件及就業平等司黃維稱司長"},{"start":172.677,"end":198.672,"text":"法務部法治司副司長謝志明副司長保護司侯玉任科長原住民族委員會社會福利處羅赫路處長內政部移民署移民事務署曹固林副組長衛生福利部長期照顧司吳希文副司長"},{"start":200.467,"end":216.381,"text":"社會及家庭署李育吟主長、疾病管制署何麗麗主長接下來請勞動部許明春部長報告時間5分鐘"},{"start":223.871,"end":247.45,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生、大家好。貴委員會今天安排就業服務法上路逾三十年．針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益促進等面向進行全面檢視．本部有機會能列寫口頭報告．並得親迎各位委員的教育．深感榮幸。請提供就服法三十年來檢視說明．請各位委員指教。"},{"start":248.331,"end":276.403,"text":"為了促進國民就業、社會經濟發展保障工作權益確保就業不受歧視、管理外國勞動力於81年制定就業服務法配合產業需求及人口結構歷經18次修正包括禁止要求提供與就業無關的隱私資料只缺不到4萬元需公開薪資範圍納入二度就業婦女等6類人員為特定對象增加禁止就業歧視範圍4次延長移工年限"},{"start":277.303,"end":299.989,"text":"刪除移工聘期借滿出國規定等首先在就業促進面向透過各種管道一案到底專人客製化服務以就業獎勵工具協助媒合持續開發青年、中高齡及二度就業婦女勞動力推動投資青年就業方案第二期也依中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法幫助中高齡及高齡者就業"},{"start":302.05,"end":304.621,"text":"需留職場．並推動婦女再就業計畫鼓勵婦女重返職場．"},{"start":308.393,"end":332.809,"text":"若是就業上提供特定對象個別化服務．擴大納入職災勞工．並依行政院強化社會安全網計畫．促進弱勢族群就業．補助特定對象取得就業相關技術施政．針對緊繁休息勞工推動充電再觸發訓練計畫．補助企業與勞工訓練費用．提升勞工技能及維持生計．也辦理雇用安定措施來穩定勞僱關係．"},{"start":334.75,"end":360.168,"text":"因應重大天災推動專案協助．提供失業者就業安置及工作津貼．失業者可以免費及免徵式參加職前訓練．在職勞工者可免費在職訓練．為提升勞工職能．亦產業需要辦理職訓．與各部會協力發展職能基準．培育重點產業人才．廣邀業界參與技能檢定命題．強化檢定效能在禁止歧視方面．"},{"start":361.209,"end":383.414,"text":"就服法以明定、僱主不得以性別、年齡等特質就業歧視最重處150萬並公佈名稱每年與地方政府辦理職場平權研習會多元管道加強宣導職場平權觀念在外國勞動力權益保障方面就服法明定僱主不得非法聘僱非法扣留證件等若非聘僱處"},{"start":386.195,"end":411.19,"text":"若非法聘僱,處最高75萬及管制僱主兩年不得申請移工,避免社會問題。僱主歇業、被看護者死亡或雙方合役,移工轉換僱主已有相當程度的自由。三年屆滿可期滿轉換或跨業別轉換。112年在彰化桃園設置僱主聘僱移工轉換服務中心,由雙與專人一案到底提供媒合。"},{"start":412.489,"end":432.963,"text":"移工在台年限方面．歷經4次修法提高到12年．家庭看護工到14年．也刪除聘期借滿需強制出國規定及縮短地補等待期．減少雇主成本．為留用資深優秀移工轉任中階人力．推動移工留才久用方案．目標於2030年留用14萬人．"},{"start":434.224,"end":461.043,"text":"取得永居的外國人才規劃比照外配．永居期間免申請許可在台工作．延攬人才方面．國發會以協同本部推動攬財專法．外國人才聘僱期間最長5年．未來配合國發會延商攬財專法及救福法相關規定．考量人口結構改變．擴大流用橋外生．113年提高配額為7000名．近3年核准人士達9成．"},{"start":462.836,"end":484.862,"text":"未來因應人口下降及缺工趨勢優先延攬．加強保障移工權益．提供資訊及暢通申訴管道．設置移工、機場、服務站與戰事服務等措施．設立1955專線．補助地方政府、人力辦理、統一及安置．最後,就服法未來推動重點．在就業促進面向、因應產業勞缺工．"},{"start":486.863,"end":505.708,"text":"跨部會推動投資青年就業方案2.0、中高齡及高齡者就業促進三年計劃及婦女債就業計劃、嚴定身心障礙者就業促進中層計劃、提升障礙者工作權益建構友善職場、適時檢討救福法、中高齡專法以服經濟及市場需求、"},{"start":506.468,"end":521.922,"text":"另外,為了嚇阻並嚴懲非法僱用或非法媒介、修正救福法非法僱用及媒介行為、每項裁法提高以每人計算、非法媒介罰款提交三倍並加重刑責．針對人身侵害及判決有罪．"},{"start":522.342,"end":537.913,"text":"管制期間提高至5年．再犯者永久管制．且未來將檢討僑外生評點制．適時取消上限與國防外等研議．建立僑外生個人工作許可．納入《欄材專法》或《就業服務法規範》以上報告敬請各位委員指教謝謝"},{"start":545.529,"end":567.44,"text":"有關本日會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4加1分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於散會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息10分鐘原則上11點30分處理臨時提案10點30分截止收案"},{"start":572.322,"end":575.908,"text":"現在請登記第一位委員陳昭之委員發言。謝謝主席。有請部長。請許部長。"},{"start":588.943,"end":595.008,"text":"陳委員好部長早部長之前我在質詢這個印度移工議題的時候我有提到就是說這是一個很好的機會可以採取政府對政府、國對國的一個執聘制度當時你也覺得說會這樣做而且您自己也提到說因為一個全新的來源國我們如果從一開始就來談會是比較容易的否則像現在的這個其他的來源國因為執聘制度做得很差其實是不到1%"},{"start":618.766,"end":639.852,"text":"所以大家都習慣透過仲介那林淑芬委員也提到這是一個契機就是說導正過去錯誤的政策建立所謂的印度模式那採取國對國執聘那最重要是要弱化這個私人仲介的角色而且避免這個巧立名目對移工做剝削那當時部長也表示認同"},{"start":641.132,"end":668.279,"text":"那部長您當時在委員會的這個回應跟態度會讓委員或是勞工團體以為我們印度移工就要採取國對國的職聘但是部長我們看一下這個4月3號公佈的MOU第8條老實說我們看了有一點傻眼這第8條除現有招募制度外現有招募制度外 雙方同意推動執行計畫縮短流程、簡化文件設立單一窗口及選工制度那部長這個和現行的政策"},{"start":669.099,"end":675.309,"text":"沒有什麼不同啊。第一句的現有招募制度意思是仍然允許透過私人仲介引進嗎?"},{"start":678.356,"end":705.106,"text":"報告委員因為當初在談這個招募的部分因為現在我們其實就是雙軌雙軌 多元那這一次也繼續雙軌嗎這一次基本上也是會有雙軌的一個選擇但是我跟委員報告我們是希望能夠在殖民方面以這個為主要的談判主要的談判因為其實我們現在在推動殖民上很多是因為來源國"},{"start":706.627,"end":712.949,"text":"但是雙軌制到目前是非常的失敗你知道雙軌就是仲介跟私人仲介跟這個職聘職聘比率不到1%雙軌是這樣子吧你像我記得是像越南還有印尼他們來源國那邊對這個部分是消極的"},{"start":736.034,"end":756.817,"text":"所以這個不是說我們做不好而是來源國他不願意配合那我在這個印度方面我是希望這是我優先的議題就我希望來優先談國與國之間能夠執聘我們希望印度這邊能夠同意不要像其他國家他不太願意來"},{"start":757.518,"end":763.885,"text":"拜託委員我的態度是很清楚的我是希望國與國但是現在的MOU的內容你覺得是國對國的關係嗎現在的MOU我們看到的報告委因為所有的這個"},{"start":777.116,"end":798.539,"text":"各國的這個引進,他們其實在架構上都是會有比較多元的方式但是我們在後續的工作層級會議,報告委員這是MOU,MOU就是一個備忘錄一個大方向原則但是後續的工作層級會議那才是重點所以報告委員我是要跟您說明一個態度就是說"},{"start":799.7,"end":822.923,"text":"我是我們這個部分用列為優先談判的我瞭解但是我們來看看真正的這個所謂的國對國執聘這是韓國大家都瞭解韓國的執聘還得過聯合國的這個公共服務首獎他有幾個特點第一個由政府設立行政法人並在海外設立分處辦選這個辦理選工跟那個技能測驗的一些等等部長我們現在執聘中心是行政機關嗎"},{"start":824.656,"end":851.691,"text":"不是嘛,他是一個是外包嘛,外包給廠商嘛對,他不是行政局執行中心也沒有在海外設點嘛沒有在海外設點辦理這個選工跟訓練移工的這個做法嘛那第二個引入韓國的這個移工他需要進行這個語言能力跟技能的測驗那作為人力工團他們的這個名稱的參考那我國引進的勞工移工事實上沒有做這些"},{"start":852.671,"end":868.79,"text":"這是測驗嘛這是第二個第三個他移工入境後他是由這個人力工團去接機那移工就訓這個培訓完成之後他們就把他送到這個工作場所那我們的職聘中心有接機服務嗎他有送移工到這個他的工作場所嗎"},{"start":871.324,"end":897.972,"text":"我這樣說明因為韓國他其實他已經以後是比我們晚所以他一開始他們就沒有所謂的私人仲介的問題他就是當時候他就是採他們國家辦職聘所以他就是這樣的一個政策所以他去談的時候當然萊恩國願意跟他來合作就會這樣但是我們會參考所以我跟委員報告像我們現在針對家庭看護過那個一站式服務"},{"start":898.932,"end":907.235,"text":"就是參考韓國的。我們包括我們的一戰士服務去接機。家事移工啦。那個事業移工是這個產業移工是現在沒有。因為我們事先事辦從家庭看護工開始。事辦很久了耶。"},{"start":914.358,"end":935.139,"text":"沒有沒有沒有一年一年多而已喔我們去年在我們去年一月才正式上路部長是說要往這個方向做還有那個韓國還有人力工程還追蹤移工的工作狀況這個這個大家現在全世界各國在關關心勞動權益他會去了解他的適應狀況等等所以我們我我基本上我不怪執病中心因為目前是外包廠商嘛"},{"start":935.76,"end":956.785,"text":"他們就是根據勞動部提出的合約需求去執行。那左邊這張圖是我去取得的勞動部委託執辦中心的計畫需求書。那你們對廠商的工作要求這個幾乎都只是代收、代轉文件,因為我會有畫紅線的地方。也就是勞動部一開始定位這個執聘中心其實只是一個收發中心。"},{"start":957.125,"end":984.771,"text":"我知道上次您不在同意但是我們有看到這些文字那我們並沒有賦予執聘中心這些任務包括這個選工技能測驗語言測驗以及關係移工的適應狀況那這個標案一年就七千多萬但是它的規模只有二十幾個員工嘛那人數可能比仲介公司還要少那勞工如果有心勞動部如果有心要做那這二十幾個人他沒有辦法負擔這麼龐大的業務啊你二十人怎麼服務七十幾萬人"},{"start":986.192,"end":989.762,"text":"所以是不是部長您認為要成立一個行政法人的這樣的一個機構來處理職聘的問題?"},{"start":994.051,"end":1020.591,"text":"這樣子報告委員因為我們的職聘是讓我們的僱主多一個選擇因為在台灣的現在的狀況僱主他有他個人的考量對那我職聘跟委員報告職聘當然我要做我一定會把它做好讓他易於來使用所以我們也不斷在精進那就是說這個方向我們現在還看不到嘛但是大概期許是往這個方向走是是我們會持續來精進"},{"start":1022.212,"end":1041.877,"text":"那部長我再跟您談一下這個護理師勞動問題我在3月10日的質詢上也有跟您談到這個護理師加班費的質詢我不曉得部長還有沒有印象是但是部長您說有加班事實就要有加班費而且不滿意小部分要照比例給我上面有寫我們的這個詢答的內容而且每年都會針對這個超過這個過往違規紀錄不良的這個失業機構勞動單位來進行專案的這個檢查"},{"start":1048.919,"end":1078.479,"text":"部長就是說當時我們的對話是這樣嗎您確認一下那但是我要告訴您是上個月19號20幾位護理師到台南市政府抗議因為陳大院長期人力不足這些護理師被迫加班禁慾職者不好拒絕但是院方卻為依規定給他們加班費那有25名護理師他反映他的勞工超時工作他們嘗試自救而且自己擬定加班願書結果就被上級主管怎麼樣把人調走了也就是說那個"},{"start":1079.199,"end":1079.74,"text":"臺南市勞工局出來說"},{"start":1095.011,"end":1095.471,"text":"可以公然說謊嗎?可以公然說謊嗎?"},{"start":1114.495,"end":1140.191,"text":"我們這個是兩個月公布一次但是護理室去申訴了再看一下這個罰則去年成大院沒給加班費發髮服務被罰一萬延長工時沒有給這個工資被罰五萬沒記載勞工出行行刑到分中被罰兩萬看到這個罰款的金額部長成大院他不是第一次違反勞基法而且這個我想說的是他是累犯2017、2019"},{"start":1142.552,"end":1157.607,"text":"國立大學醫院、副社醫院這樣子可以重新發落嗎?他們應該做表率、做典範啊。我們要財量基準啊。我們有財量基準,他如果一再犯他是會加重的。結果就是罰兩萬啊。他是累犯罰兩萬罰最低的罰則。所以我覺得這樣不合理啊。部長您覺得合理嗎?"},{"start":1167.317,"end":1183.508,"text":"當然若是壘犯的話就是要加重啦。我最後結論就是說勞動部跟地方主管機構要多站在勞工的權益去執法。我們一定會站在勞工的立場。但是針對這個個案的部分沒關係我們會跟地方勞政機關在"},{"start":1188.592,"end":1190.453,"text":"好 謝謝陳昭斯委員發言接下來請林月晴委員發言"},{"start":1223.82,"end":1233.678,"text":"主席好。有請我們的勞動部部長跟我們的勞動發展署的蔡署長。請蔡署長。林委員好。"},{"start":1235.104,"end":1255.71,"text":"部長早,那因為根據媒體的消息是下週要召開印度移工的諮詢會議要討論行業名額跟方式那是不是想問的因為前幾天大眾政僱主團體來向本席陳情表示對我們的對象"},{"start":1256.71,"end":1274.313,"text":"也就是我們的拼顧人力穩定來源他們有一點擔心就是請問社福類的移工特別是家庭看護工那會不會列入你們這次的項目當中開放的業別報告委員我們開放的業別會早"},{"start":1275.639,"end":1296.425,"text":"相關的部會來納入討論因為這些業別他有各有他的目的事業主管機關像這些看護人員這些就是屬於衛福部那他會不會納入我們到時候就是會找他們來討論包括諮詢這一次第二次的諮詢會我沒有邀請我們相關的部會針對開放的業別開放的人數"},{"start":1299.386,"end":1313.685,"text":"還有引進的方式我們都會來大家來討論希望就是把他們的需求去做考量因為他們事實上是一個專門要去照顧重症好的一些家庭可能要去考量那接下來想"},{"start":1315.087,"end":1342.185,"text":"部長知道這樣子的一個公式嗎就是本來按照生權法裡邊事實上希望保障生權者的一個就業權益在38條跟43條就有規定生長者的一個聘僱僱用跟行政貸金這項規定本意是希望促進生長者就業而且推動同時推動事業單位能夠去改善他的工作環境來聘供"},{"start":1342.665,"end":1344.165,"text":"相對的事上會變成什麼呢"},{"start":1369.232,"end":1393.464,"text":"會變成上主管人他大概只要看不順眼就把人趕走了然後另外一個是有時候這些人事實上是他不是在事業單位工作反而是規避掉很多的問題點比如說事業單位要改善我們的他的整個環境不需要改善那身上者單獨在這工作只領最低的基本薪資所有的福利都沒有"},{"start":1394.244,"end":1421.381,"text":"所以這公司像仲介、身障者幫他做事出錢的是另外一家公司是事業單位那上有沒有乍領我們的身障者就業基金不確定那再來身障者再次的會跟社會隔絕本來事實上是要去融合兼教育單位就普特融合都達到96%可是你竟然把身障者是區隔掉的那我不知道勞動部有沒有掌握這樣子"},{"start":1421.961,"end":1439.07,"text":"因為他大剌剌的在就業市場當中丟出來來讓大家來使用他這樣的一個管理公司他是代管可是呢所有人都在他這邊上班幫事業單位工作可是實際上有時候連無障礙廁所都沒有所以我不知道部長知不知道這種狀況"},{"start":1440.271,"end":1462.617,"text":"報告委如果像您剛剛這樣的所提的這樣是違反我們生權法的規範完全不符合這個所要求的所以你怎麼去認定有沒有違法甚至有沒有依法去輔導或是處罰報告委因為這個個案的情形我是不是可以請業務單位跟委員這邊來了解我們進一步來了解然後看應該做怎麼樣一個處理"},{"start":1463.891,"end":1486.114,"text":"好,是不是一個禮拜後讓我了解這整個狀況?委員你那邊有些資訊給我們我會請同仁去跟委員這邊辦公室來了解然後我們來進行所以為什麼就業服務法要大修?連這樣子的狀況都可以規避到生權法跟你就業服務的一些要件基本上是法律沒有問題是有心者"},{"start":1486.374,"end":1486.654,"text":"但是﹖"},{"start":1513.059,"end":1531.649,"text":"這個改革看到我們過去的就服法裡邊看到什麼外國人聘僱跟管理的比重大於就業服務本來這個就服法是要促進國人的就業可是在34條到83條這麼高的比重幾乎都在講外國人聘僱跟管理比較多"},{"start":1532.009,"end":1557.343,"text":"比重佔到三分之二這樣的比重到底我們這救福法是要促進我們國人就業尤其我很關心的青年就業幾乎都沒有在這邊反而事實上是大力去促成我們外國人這不應該是拉出來做專法去討論嗎怎麼會是合併在你這邊而且佔了三分之二強的一個比重那這個救福法到底是去滿足我們外國人聘僱還是事實上要促進我們國人就業"},{"start":1558.724,"end":1584.086,"text":"那連相關的辦法基本上也是三分之二反而是對於國內勞工的就業服務反而談得比較少連你今天的報告也是這樣因為今天的報告比重上也看起來非常偏頗的幾乎大概兩頁談到我們國內的就業要未來怎麼提振可是有三頁都在續名是我們的外國的整個聘僱要怎麼去做"},{"start":1584.326,"end":1586.047,"text":"但是這部分好像做得很少所以我也想問的是以這樣子來看部長知不知道"},{"start":1605.979,"end":1616.949,"text":"在我們的地方政府在人的聘僱率上會不會因為你的比重上落差而人的聘用也是有落差的?"},{"start":1620.131,"end":1645.692,"text":"就人員的配置上有沒有影響那我你現在講不會齁可能也沒有很有把握齁所以是不是可以也讓我知道一下各地方政府的聘僱到底有沒有落差你有這樣的質疑啊我是跟你回答說不會啦但是當然你有質疑我們必須把數據齁提供給委員來了解 是不是提供出來齁博哲有時候如果你今天不是在地方政府去促進我們"},{"start":1647.074,"end":1653.42,"text":"國內的人的就業反而事實上大量把它著力在我們的外國的聘僱我覺得不太適宜"},{"start":1654.178,"end":1679.424,"text":"那就業服務法歷年修正的次數都是單休一些那你認為這些我剛剛已經提過就是說這樣的修正裡面幾乎都是以外國人拼顧我不知道部長是不是覺得合理嗎就是整個你比較比重上比較都是以外國人拼顧跟管理為主這幾次的修正都是以因為可能"},{"start":1681.212,"end":1683.393,"text":"為什麼不是我們自己國內的就業的提振呢?"},{"start":1695.235,"end":1721.254,"text":"國內就業提振我們是很多的用計劃方案去推動因為法是一個大原則政府常跟我講要依法行事如果法裡面沒有定的話通常不會依法行事反而會變成我們國內的就業事實上會呈現比較不穩定的狀態反而你大量的思考的事實上是外國聘僱的管理的模式報告委員其實我們很多法"},{"start":1722.254,"end":1738.836,"text":"他會授權一些執法訂定計劃或相關的方案去推動執行面我們都是訂定計劃去推動因為用計劃的話比較容易去滾動性的修正對可是部長我們看基本上都是在法的大架構下去推動都是依法行政"},{"start":1739.397,"end":1755.048,"text":"你去看原來的我們的就業服務法規定的就業服務本頁做好了嗎?我認為沒有為什麼?因為民間就業服務機構等於同於我們的移工聘僱所專屬的代辦單位對國人求職的服務轉向數位的人力銀行像11104"},{"start":1757.129,"end":1785.864,"text":"這樣子的一個方式而就業服務難道只有一工聘僱嗎或網路上的人力銀行當下我們的公立就業服務中心這些服務機構所提供的職業訓練跟就業諮詢跟我們的職業心理測驗和我們受委任的招募這些資源用使用率都非常非常的低有沒有去檢討這些單位甚至連職業推薦這項業務都效果都不如預期所以失利的更不用講了"},{"start":1786.664,"end":1809.874,"text":"所以在這樣的狀況底下我不知道就是說我們還有辦法去有能力去做嗎?像我剛剛講的青年就業促進還避免職業傷害跟協助我們的障礙者中高齡及高齡者的這些就業的職業工具的使用目前我真的很少看到青年對青年這一塊因為這些越來越加重的需求我覺得勞動部應該去因應"},{"start":1811.175,"end":1834.549,"text":"報告委員 這個部分我跟委員報告 我們這幾年推動的包括在重視在疫情之間 我們今年的失業都降到歷來最低 是 那部長是不是因為時間關係再請你把相關的 因為我真的連今天報告我都看不出來 因為你的比重上真的就很失衡了 那最後大概就是希望你在於這一塊是不是可以去做"},{"start":1835.69,"end":1836.871,"text":"謝謝林月琴委員的發言接下來請王育明委員發言"},{"start":1868.237,"end":1872.64,"text":"好謝謝主席我們是不是請呃許部長請許部長部長好部長你在勞動部已經幾年了掌管勞動部"},{"start":1883.425,"end":1907.71,"text":"報告委員6年快兩個月也算是在任非常久的部長那我不太知道為什麼這一次在閣員的異動當中你也是女性的閣員現在其實缺乏女性的閣員基本上你留任其實是讓資深的部長可以繼續帶領勞動部但是這一次換了一個其實完全沒有背景的原來的副秘書長何佩珊來擔任勞動部部長"},{"start":1910.911,"end":1930.96,"text":"那你覺得這樣的一個人事的更換會讓勞動部帶領得更好嗎?報告委員因為這個人事權當然在走隔壁啦齁那但是我要說明一下其實我跟佩珊不算陌生齁我擔任勞動部長以後其實我們在公務上有很多的所以你認為他很時任會做得比你好會嗎?"},{"start":1932,"end":1949.956,"text":"我對他有信心,因為我覺得他對勞動政策不陌生而且我在跟他討論過程中那之前在這個一例一休修法的時候他其實是搭配當時的行政院院長賴清德是勞基法修二讓勞工團體非常反彈"},{"start":1951.311,"end":1969.667,"text":"那這個你知道嗎?那段我是沒有參與,我不曉得你沒有參與嗎?所以本席讓你了解光是這一段他要跟勞工團體的溝通我想要花更多時間大家現在在質疑的是他將來的在勞工政策的立場是會站在勞動部的立場、站在勞工的立場還是站在資方的立場?"},{"start":1970.727,"end":1972.169,"text":"接下來本期要問的是有關於這個花蓮觀光業受創非常嚴重"},{"start":1989.528,"end":2009.215,"text":"這個問題看起來是越來越嚴重目前看到的前陣子的報導呢就是有一些這個旅館他是直接歇業了而且大量解雇目前大概有將近300個人已經是無班可上但不只這樣最近看起來這個因為不是0403的地震0423再震了"},{"start":2010.675,"end":2032.692,"text":"所以變成是這個旅館業他們說他們現在住宿率只剩下5%然後東大門夜市根本沒有人去那這樣的一個慘況事業人數可能還要再攀升無薪假人數可能也會增加目前為止勞動部有掌握到花蓮強震之後他們現在勞工在當地的一個情況嗎"},{"start":2034.203,"end":2048.308,"text":"報告委員,我們因為我們當地有我們的就業的服務中心。好,你們掌握到是什麼情況?目前那個我們現在人數有沒有比本席現在講的這個更多?"},{"start":2051.067,"end":2071.459,"text":"現在...無薪假人數有多少?無薪假...無薪假沒有增加...無薪假沒有...現在只有一家三人...對...就是...無薪假...就是減班休息了...對...這邊...就一家...然後三個人...通報減班休息...那...解僱呢?解僱喔...之前解僱40家..."},{"start":2073.921,"end":2100.1,"text":"202人大量解雇兩家123就是委員您講的這個部分目前為止你們掌握到的是300人這是什麼時候的數據昨天昨天最新的數據我們每天都是會有更新那面對花蓮這樣的一個情況之前本席就說你們應該要有一個專案來協助花蓮因為他短期其實我看是復甦不了了那所以這一些廣大的勞工靠這一些旅遊業"},{"start":2100.981,"end":2116.357,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":2116.707,"end":2144.506,"text":"委員我們其實跟委員報告我們因為這個大地震我們目前就委員您執行以後我們有啟動七大的措施來協助我們花蓮受災的這些事業單位跟勞工好那我希望你們強化另外一個本席要關注的是災區的這一些工人的安全因為現在為了災後的重建所以有一些其實是要搶工那甚至我們看到這個公文內政部他還說這個"},{"start":2147.427,"end":2171.623,"text":"應該避免不必要的鑑定手續及試驗他是為了這個搶救的這個效率喔但是另外一方面本席擔心的就是為了搶快的過程當中勞工的風險就是有沒有去適度的提醒像今天早上又連山震喔就是花蓮那個地方如果你是要做這個災後搶救工作相關的工人其實那個的安全真的要特別注意要不然可能會受到二次的傷害"},{"start":2172.103,"end":2192.696,"text":"謝謝委員提醒其實我們在04、03那一天除了發布零工措施另外就是公安的部分當天也同時提醒這些事業單位要注意你種子倒塌以後你要復工怎麼樣你都要先預先瞭解風險評估之後你才能入場這一點本性會強化"},{"start":2194.198,"end":2205.132,"text":"對 這一點本席要求因為現在花蓮有幾棟其實也是圍樓或是家裡面它有一些其實是危險的那有些搶修的工人可能為了搶快大家也希望盡快復原但是我覺得安全還是要幫他顧好不好這個是非常重要的"},{"start":2209.037,"end":2231.782,"text":"另外一點就有關於勞檢人力的部分現在中央有一些在勞檢人力的部分你在原額的分配上面看起來是不太均的在六都裡面其實是不太均的那另外一個是你們現在有一些業務其實是開始去下放給地方擴大授權那以台中市來講"},{"start":2233.202,"end":2260.98,"text":"這個我知道從去年開始你們就開始有一些勞檢的範圍就授權給台中市政府但是同時你們勞檢的原額其實並沒有上升那這樣會變成是業務量加大但是人員沒有增加那這個部分你們要怎麼樣去處理報告委員其實那個原額部分這些人力我們主要是補助市場上面也可以擴編啊我知道但重要的補助很重要地方財政其實都很辛苦啊"},{"start":2261.51,"end":2262.71,"text":"好,一個是原額,一個是現在其實他們的流動率是高的"},{"start":2289.855,"end":2305.46,"text":"就是因為業務量大大家每一下出現什麼公安狀況就是說要增加勞檢次數那勞檢員的福利跟薪資待遇如果沒有同時去做一些修正其實現在就本席知道的他們其實有的員額還不見得補得足啊"},{"start":2305.68,"end":2327.326,"text":"就現有的因為不見得補得足那就是一個惡性循環就是說福利待遇不好案件量又大然後又補不足所以基本你是不是應該要去改善他們的一些相關的福利薪資待遇再做一個通盤的檢討可以報告委員我們其實這個問題我都有在請業務單位做一些盤點事實上去年我就先幫他們爭取那個風險風險那個工作的加急"},{"start":2332.307,"end":2357.636,"text":"是這個部分有就是五千、兩千這個已經三千、五千對不起三千、五千這個已經通過了是4月1號正式上路就是你從事高風險的這些檢查工作每個月你可以多領五千塊或三千塊好這一塊我希望你要持續這些勞檢員是你們的分身是他們都前進到第一線然後去查看實際執行的情況是不是有違規但是如果連勞檢員都過勞他的"},{"start":2360.217,"end":2383.117,"text":"主要的這些福利都沒有被照顧好那我覺得你將來這些實質的勞檢的能量是會下降的所以這一塊我希望中央可以去看到他現在流動率高的原因他必要的這些福利條件應該要給予改善那這樣子才可以讓我們的勞檢員就是不要流動力那麼高然後還有再增加大家會願意進來那這樣你整個的"},{"start":2383.917,"end":2384.057,"text":"稍後再討論。"},{"start":2416.06,"end":2419.625,"text":"謝謝王育明委員發言接下來請陳金輝委員發言主席我想請部長請許部長各位官員早安"},{"start":2432.902,"end":2451.197,"text":"陳委員早部長上禮拜有一個蠻嚴重的新聞就是在東營區這個營區發現說海軍陸戰隊有66位非法的逃逸的移工嘛對然後他們已經去了三次移民署去了三次都撲空"},{"start":2452.378,"end":2478.197,"text":"表示他們其實是有線民在通報啦但第4次有發現有6位失聯的逃逸的移工那這個移工的管理我想除了移民署有責任勞動部也有責任所以像這樣子的狀況你們有想要再去追查源頭嗎因為這個承包公司他一定有許許多個工程報告委我們一定會追查這些那個查獲的非法"},{"start":2478.917,"end":2479.518,"text":"但是還沒開始"},{"start":2494.354,"end":2518.616,"text":"這個移工的查緝,桃圍移工的查緝是營運署,我們也是一起配合,這是一個國安團隊在處理但是勞動力發展署的工作到底哪些企業有僱用非法移工還有你們網上追查像這些公務機關的標案都是很公開的所以對你們而言去追查同一家這個承包商他是不是還有其他的工程這應該是很容易的吧對,這個應該是可以"},{"start":2521.988,"end":2524.77,"text":"好,因為這也是很危害我們國安的問題嘛好,下一個我們來看一下"},{"start":2553.61,"end":2572.937,"text":"這個失聯移工現在還有涉入詐騙的問題居然他在離境前他每一本這個帳戶可以標到40萬所以部長你會知道說這幾年我們失聯移工或者是移工涉刑案的人數有多少然後哪一類的犯罪在成長嗎?"},{"start":2574.716,"end":2598.452,"text":"報告委員其實整體這移工不管是合法或失聯的他其實他的犯罪率還是比我們國人低是但是他在攀升你知道嗎這個大概他攀升大部分都是酒駕最多這個我們會加強宣導就是請移工要珍惜工作機因為這種一旦殺"},{"start":2603.277,"end":2617.393,"text":"這邊我幫你找出來了因為詐騙隨著科技的發達全世界都是不斷的攀升嘛所以我們查到的這個外籍人頭賬戶的人數就不斷在成長那我們看一下右邊這個表比較清楚"},{"start":2618.234,"end":2639.465,"text":"一公社刑事案件的件數我們把最大規模的找出來最大規模就是剛部長提到的公共危險罪再來就是詐欺罪也就是詐騙相關的他們有的時候是加害人有時候是被害人但光是從110年到112年他是三倍的成長"},{"start":2640.586,"end":2665.683,"text":"所以最近當然大家都一直在探討移工問題我們也許缺工所以我們必須要引進可是像這樣子不管是失聯、逃逸或者是刑事案件增加或是介入新的犯罪集團像詐騙這樣的事情如果我們沒有辦法因應而且有好的解決方案的話大家也會擔心我們是不是可以再迎接更多的移工來台"},{"start":2667.449,"end":2682.351,"text":"其實這個就是最近移工的帳戶變成被一個一個犯罪的工具這個問題是行政院打詐的這個小組我們那個小組已經跨部委有討論過了包括比如說我們針對"},{"start":2683.773,"end":2695.848,"text":"離境的或者失聯的我們會提供帳戶的這些資料給這個金管會讓他們來有最近有討論有有有有金融機構他就會做注意就是說這些帳戶如果異常的資金進來就會去注意是不是有"},{"start":2701.195,"end":2728.492,"text":"但是從移工端你有沒有想到要去宣導?我要做宣導啊,報告員我們會宣導這個部分對,這個上次我們也有討論過他們的在台工作需職嘛是關於他的賬戶啊等等的這裡面只有提到說你一定要透過合法的管道匯錢回到家鄉或是你一定要保管好自己的證件但是對於剛提到的詐騙等等你們這個"},{"start":2730.493,"end":2730.853,"text":"直本我們會再印製"},{"start":2759.994,"end":2774.78,"text":"下一個議題當然是更令人難過啦但是許許多多的像台劇有一個叫八尺門的辯護人他裡面就有一個情節是寫到說這個外籍移工他被僱主塞小費然後撫摸了屁股臀部"},{"start":2776.141,"end":2791.375,"text":"從性騷擾最後可能演變成性侵害這也是許多媒體他們會報導的他去訪問可能有性侵害的受害人這個移工他就講到說一開始也是一樣跟這個劇情一樣"},{"start":2792.516,"end":2815.95,"text":"試探性的去播放一些色情的影片﹖或者是問一下他有沒有結婚﹖要不要嫁給他﹖以及口頭的吃豆腐﹖到最後呢就更嚴重的性侵害、性暴力等等好當然檢察官會問受害者說欸你怎麼前面沒有說他說前面當然僱主就說你如果敢說出去的話我就會把你送回去"},{"start":2816.75,"end":2840.531,"text":"所以我們雖然2023年就通過了新平三法的修法也努力在做性別平權可是連勞動部你們內部發布的統計光是台灣一般接到性騷擾這是你發布的官方數據有九成的人其實是不敢說的只有一成的人他會出來訴苦或是報案"},{"start":2842.048,"end":2865.158,"text":"移工的生活環境比我們一般人還要隱暗所以像這樣子家事的移工他就是跟他們日夜相處在一起更容易遇到這樣子的問題那當然我們也很不希望這樣子的故事會讓國外對我們有更不好的印象畢竟我們是一個人權立國的國家嘛那這邊我來整理一下齁"},{"start":2866.993,"end":2892.041,"text":"10年左右呢這個外籍性侵統計的案件加起來就有將近800件好比較難過的是透過1955來受理的3年這5年內大概是199可是衛福部的數字是362表示什麼呢外籍移工沒有把你勞動部1955當成有力的靠山馬"},{"start":2892.921,"end":2909.207,"text":"他會跟你聯絡關於他的性侵害、性騷擾這裏面還沒有統計到性騷擾這裏面只有統計性侵害喔所以他主動是打給警察或是打給其他的單位但是他沒有覺得跟勞動部講會有用欸"},{"start":2913.796,"end":2933.624,"text":"其實報委我們其實都透過多元的宣傳管道告訴移工說你只要有受到任何不法侵害或騷擾1955就是你的第一時間你馬上可以求救的而且他只要一打進來我們一定會立案查處那其實我們這邊的受理的數據件數的統計"},{"start":2936.685,"end":2963.977,"text":"包括性騷擾其他的各種不法的招數不法其他通通都有不過這個部分我們還是會再加強我知道但是上次我們也有討論啦最後有一些他們是合意的解雇但這些其實都是黑數所以我覺得你可以去跟其他部門討論一下為什麼他們是遇到性騷擾或是性騷擾反而是通知勞動部以外的人比較多因為這個數字的落差還蠻大的"},{"start":2966.739,"end":2984.759,"text":"好,那再來呢我們講到印度移工您簽署的MOU裡面有提到有一個直接解聘計劃也就是直接聘僱計劃這就是您之前跟我一起討論的職聘中心嗎可是我們已經講過了不管是"},{"start":2985.78,"end":3007.332,"text":"我提出來的問題或者是之前法治局也有講你們職聘中心的成效不佳就是包括流程繁瑣啊宣傳不利啊等等所以真正使用的委託率非常的低並且在近幾年沒有什麼增長好所以上次我們3月6號就已經討論過了但是今天4月25、24"},{"start":3009.953,"end":3020.136,"text":"我上網看你們的流程在官網上還是一模一樣完全沒有改變請問你具體有想要如何改善?我們這個其實我們都一直在滾動檢討那維尼提過以後我有要求要全盤包括我最近我們就會開會"},{"start":3033.859,"end":3035.84,"text":"這邊提供您一個建議因為立法院的法治局在"},{"start":3049.065,"end":3068.937,"text":"最近嘛,他有針對職聘中心進行一些研究跟檢討他說勞動部要優化、簡化申請流程還有加強聯繫服務他覺得可以去參考韓國的解聘許可制因為韓國的解聘許可制他整個過程是由政府來資助他們很重視移工嘛對對對所以"},{"start":3071.579,"end":3088.338,"text":"他們幾乎是幫僱主提供total solution全方面的去解決僱主是不需要負擔任何的成本的對不管是時間成本或是金錢成本等等的所以呢他還可以他只要支付移工就業前的訓練費用就可以了"},{"start":3088.698,"end":3111.29,"text":"所以他們的勞動部他把這個當成當地的產業跟企業的重點服務項目也可以避免移工遭受不當的剝削來強迫勞動等等不當的對待這個是本席提供的一個參考他們好的制度我們來參考啦因為韓國的殖民是他們開放比較晚所以他一開始他就走做得很到位"},{"start":3111.63,"end":3112.39,"text":"謝謝陳金輝委員發言接下來請邱政軍委員發言"},{"start":3140.749,"end":3145.835,"text":"主席好,我們請我們的勞動部,我們的許部長。邱委員好。部長好。部長請問你,您作為史上任期最長的勞動部長,那"},{"start":3161.476,"end":3185.013,"text":"當然我很遺憾沒有留任那您上次說到我們最急迫需要推動的重大政策包括勞保年金的改革失聯的移工低薪等問題那我想請問部長520之後對於新任的部長你有什麼看法有沒有什麼期待"},{"start":3186.094,"end":3205.24,"text":"報告委員,其實我在勞動部長任內針對很多的法案跟政策,不管在跟行政院這邊討論或者跟立法院這邊討論,其實我們的現在和未來的核准部長他都有參與,而且在……所以你對他有信心?"},{"start":3205.7,"end":3232.743,"text":"我對他是有信心的他對勞動政策並不陌生而且他會站在勞工的立場來維護勞工的權益所以我對他也期許能夠秉持這樣的一個態度為我們勞方來站出立場這樣子我們勞團印象都停留在我們賴清德現在準總統擔任行政院長任內二度修正勞基法的強勢態度那您認為他上任之後當務之急是什麼"},{"start":3235.7,"end":3260.477,"text":"有沒有必要修補與勞團的這些不同的聲音的意見?我覺得這是很重要的一件事情當然大家可能對他過去的因為角色或職務的關係那有一些可能有一些認為或許不符合大家的期待那我覺得他應該去跟大家做一些面對面的溝通說明您覺得我剛剛提的那些重大的一些政策他會繼續延續嗎?"},{"start":3262.088,"end":3285.897,"text":"我想勞動部的政策我想都會有一貫的這些這個他的這個規劃在那部長會不會因為你離開之後這些都不動了因為這個部分現在都是最迫切的問題我想新的部長上來他也會邀請相關的業務單位主管來瞭解然後也去會去來做一些"},{"start":3286.687,"end":3304.307,"text":"看未來要怎麼來解決,會有他自己的想法。那老保年金,那您看老保年金的改革已經拖了8年當然部長也是認為這是很需要推動的這個業務那麼新的部長會不會真心推動老保年金的改革還是繼續財務的撥補?"},{"start":3307.786,"end":3330.728,"text":"報告委員 我想撥補是一定要持續啦 撥補這個問題 問題是已經拖了8年了改革也一定要去面對 那只是說 這個我一直在說明說 這個其實不是說願意這樣子拖 而是說這個涉及的勞工人數已經達到千萬人 然後包括事業單位60萬人 那這個 各階層的勞工都不同 但是不能說因為這個事情是比較複雜沒錯 但不能因為它複雜"},{"start":3333.47,"end":3355.54,"text":"所以因為是複雜所以要就是說必須大家多去溝通然後去求取最大的共識所以要幾年?要一年、兩年、三年、四年?這個我恐怕沒辦法代替他來回答當然不是喊口號我不希望說我們老百姆年金的改革是用喊口號的方式來拖"},{"start":3358.396,"end":3386.786,"text":"我也希望部長能夠把這樣的一個重要的一個政策繼續的把它交接下去讓他能夠新的部長能夠繼續完成您可以做到嗎?可以那再來請問部長基層農民非常關心的農務移工辦理的進度上次您有跟本席談到施採外展模式由農會代農民提出申請那麼請問一下目前辦理的情形是如何?"},{"start":3389.33,"end":3404.705,"text":"報告委員我這邊手上的資料我們一萬二那這邊農業部已經核准了五千七百人了總共五千七百人對大概有將近一半了我們現在開放一萬二嘛那他現在核准五千七"},{"start":3405.555,"end":3405.975,"text":"為什麼會這麼少?這個實際增加為什麼會這麼緩慢?"},{"start":3430.618,"end":3457.448,"text":"是不是因為我們申請的方式讓我們這些農民覺得不方便沒有沒有沒有因為現在是透過農會或合作社因為農會喔農會是這樣子喔他們意願比較不高啦是農會意願不高而不是農民不高你懂我意思嗎是是農會意願不高對所以因為農會是多一事不如少一事啦是啦所以我覺得部長是不是有必要調整這樣一個政策其實跟委包我也跟農業部這邊部長這邊反映過就是說我們這個政策的終止"},{"start":3461.23,"end":3481.545,"text":"就是為了要照顧我們的農民,對不對?如果你轉嫁到農會,等於農會多了一個業務,所以沒有人要去負擔這個責任,你懂我意思嗎?尤其現在,我們的移工也好,不管是農事移工也好,幾乎都會面臨移工逃跑的問題。"},{"start":3484.797,"end":3497.527,"text":"所以沒有人要去承擔這個責任那是不是我們要再調整一下這個做法讓我們真正需要的農民能夠更方便更便捷能夠爭取到我們的這個農事的移工"},{"start":3498.687,"end":3514.242,"text":"我們再來跟農業部這邊,針對他可能在推動上可能遇到的一些困難或瓶頸,大家再來檢討看看,看怎麼樣讓農民能夠…希望部長針對這個事情能夠多用心一點,好不好?是,好。另外,我們開放印度移工的部分,"},{"start":3515.543,"end":3536.516,"text":"勞動部昨天也透露4月底將召開國內諮詢的會議會邀請我們相關的團體、部會以及台印的學者討論未來開放的行業與名額那現在要開會了請問勞動部預計提報多少名額到會議討論不是,報告委那個名額是各"},{"start":3537.934,"end":3560.059,"text":"各部會他去評估他的需求因為這個我們是負責去跟這個印度這邊來談判但是需求是各個主管單位那我知道除了營造業嘛,製造業還有家事公務他去認為他有多少需求所以這個需求不是我來決定而是各部你會邀請哪些單位來部會啊包括你看內政部"},{"start":3561.139,"end":3562.64,"text":"我們現在服務業沒有開放為什麼沒有開放?"},{"start":3585,"end":3586.461,"text":"目前以國內服務來講,歷來都是國人最"},{"start":3605.632,"end":3626.309,"text":"經常去就業的一個工作,中高齡或者婦女,那我們必須保障他的工作機會。當然知道啦,有很多服務業其實有一些像學校,像學校他們這些交換學生,我們開放外籍學生的部分他們打工,也很多都跑到服務業。"},{"start":3634.514,"end":3642.52,"text":"我們開放印度勞工的政策,外界還有許多疑慮,我想勞動部這邊希望能夠繼續對外說明,讓外界來安心,所以我們這個會議儘早開,好不好?"},{"start":3648.744,"end":3671.949,"text":"我也要能夠實際改善我們國內的缺工的情形。對,我們下個禮拜就要開諮詢會了。那我們也是透過這個社會對話來化解大家的疑慮。因為時間不太夠,我們這個問題就,我再問下一個。就是說,我們國內15到24歲的青年失業率居高不下。相較於其他OECD的國家在疫情期間飆升到15.2%。"},{"start":3674.79,"end":3693.003,"text":"疫情後就大幅降、改善了,降到10%左右。我國去年的、前幾年的失業率幾乎都是到11到或12。那比國內的全體……新年失業率我們沒有這麼高。沒有嗎?沒有沒有。那我們的資料查到是這樣子啊?"},{"start":3695.111,"end":3695.991,"text":"現在目前看到這個狀況是怎麼樣?"},{"start":3725.458,"end":3725.82,"text":"大概2.28啦"},{"start":3727.355,"end":3753.245,"text":"那還有一段距離要...還有,當然要再努力,但是有...報告委員,但是其實我們經歷了三年的疫情欸我們的青年的失業率不但沒有飆高還降低這個其實也是要給勞動部鼓勵一下啦我們真的很努力啦好啦,我也希望說你們馬上第二期要開始對啊能夠更積極的,尤其是我們青年失業的問題啊能夠一定要盡快的來解決這樣好不好?好,謝謝部長,謝謝"},{"start":3755.424,"end":3760.99,"text":"好,謝謝邱委員的發言。下一位我們請黃旭芳委員發言。謝謝主席,我們請部長。有請部長。"},{"start":3773.564,"end":3797.498,"text":"王委員好。部長好。今天好幾位委員都覺得部長是在這個任內,這個勞動部任期最長的一個部長。那我相信部長應該也在這6年多當中應該有很多感想,那也有很多事情是可能在剩下不到一個月時間內可能也沒辦法去完成的。"},{"start":3798.098,"end":3808.672,"text":"那我想請教部長就是說你覺得你在這6年當中一直到現在你還有什麼覺得說很可惜沒有在你任內去把它完成的"},{"start":3809.651,"end":3826.441,"text":"其實報告委員當然就是有關我們廣大勞工退休經濟生活安全的勞保年金改革這個是非常複雜的議題也是一個大工程不過我覺得雖然沒有完成但是我至少做到一點就是撥補我跟委員報告因為從2020開始"},{"start":3828.982,"end":3834.766,"text":"那撥補200億到今年的1200億再加上特別預算我們其實整個撥補金額達到2670億那它的確讓我們整個財務基金的財務"},{"start":3843.243,"end":3843.263,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":3863.029,"end":3863.049,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":3887.122,"end":3902.354,"text":"所以部長會認為在你任內可能比較遺憾的就是這個勞保年金的改革沒辦法在你任內去把它完成嘛那我也希望就是說部長因為你經驗也非常豐富那其實在基層有很多工會也覺得部長"},{"start":3904.375,"end":3919.455,"text":"是一個很貼近民意的一個部長因為部長也時常到地方去請聽這些工會的聲音所以我們也希望就是說部長未來希望你也跟這個新任的這個部長"},{"start":3920.657,"end":3947.5,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":3948.08,"end":3966.885,"text":"這個總部長能夠有．可以很快的來上手。這個報告因為我跟何總部長不僅是公務上的好同事其實這幾年相處也變成好朋友、好姐妹那我想他有任何需要我來提供一些我的經驗的我都非常樂意來跟他協助這個都沒有問題"},{"start":3967.805,"end":3996.061,"text":"好,那部長今天特別提到就是說有關我們這個就業服務法上路超過30年那應該剛剛也有幾位委員覺得說應該要大修了那我針對就是移工的這個議題我想請部長請教部長就是說這個移工的議題在尤其在我們這個勞動部這邊跟印度這邊簽MOU的時候那很多人就很關心就是說新有更"},{"start":3996.801,"end":4022.538,"text":"另外一個國家的這個移工來源國對台灣來講是好的那更多人會希望就是說未來那是不是用這個直接聘僱的這個方式直接聘僱那我也看到就是勞動部也到目前為止你們是有雙軌就是一個是職聘一個是有透過仲介那我看到職聘的這個部分我覺得這個比例真的是太低了"},{"start":4023.999,"end":4045.507,"text":"為什麼職聘的這個比例這麼低?因為當然這是僱主他有時候就是他的選擇當然過去的職聘也有他可能比較不容易使用的這個缺點所以我覺得這個部分當然還有加上主要是有些來源國像越南、印尼他其實對這個部分是消極的他們不希望"},{"start":4046.747,"end":4046.967,"text":"是。是。"},{"start":4062.02,"end":4062.36,"text":"對雙方都好啦。"},{"start":4088.895,"end":4097.611,"text":"對僱主也好對他的移工的保障各方面是不是會更周全?其實我看到就是說我們這個職聘現在目前是雙軌可是為什麼職聘的這個這個"},{"start":4101.926,"end":4130.43,"text":"感覺就是非常不到百分之一嗎不到百分之一那如果是這樣子的話是不是因為你們的流程就是整個流程太繁瑣或者是說如果說業者要來申請的話也不是那麼容易那透過仲介就是有人直接服務嘛那其實我擔心的就是說未來如果說直聘的話那你們需要更多的人力需要更多的人力可是我發現我們很多的公部門"},{"start":4131.611,"end":4151.993,"text":"只要是這一種的可能你們就變成委外就變成委外去經營那這樣委外經營跟後面就是有仲介這樣好像也沒什麼兩樣因為土改又精簡人事你知道嗎但是我們其實現在公務員很辛苦啊事情越做越多啊那你看我們一個移工管理組不到70人"},{"start":4153.885,"end":4153.925,"text":"第二個﹖"},{"start":4174.6,"end":4201.365,"text":"像我們這個移工管理組的人才培養那是要時間的因為我們的移工管理的法令多如牛毛你沒有相當的時間的培養還有實務的操作其實沒有辦法很快上手所以都造成我們人力上會比較困難那像這種職聘你說像我們的現在外國人事務中心職聘那沒有辦法我人就這麼多我沒有委外那你要叫我同仁怎麼做做不來當然我們現在就盡量把它"},{"start":4202.685,"end":4202.805,"text":"你檢證不僅讓"},{"start":4216.782,"end":4245.381,"text":"人民益於使用,你自己也減輕你的負擔所以這個都是我們要精進的方向那我們會持續來檢討我們看到就是說你們目前已經有雙軌制了可是看到這個職聘的這個成效我覺得是真的非常非常的低落啦所以未來如果說這個印度移工過來的話如果說用職聘直接聘僱的這個方式那這個你們所需要的這個人力應該也是更多"},{"start":4246.221,"end":4275.601,"text":"那這個就要拜託委員支持啊當然是支持啊就是說未來當然是全力支持可是就是說你們可能要去考慮就是說你們現在是七十幾個人來管理這些七十五萬的移工那未來如果說直接聘僱的話那這個業務量是更多耶這個業務量更多那你們需要的更多人那當然我也是希望就是說你們能夠把這個一些文書的這個流程"},{"start":4275.981,"end":4276.001,"text":"好 對"},{"start":4298.579,"end":4298.719,"text":"好,謝謝維恩"},{"start":4329.68,"end":4330.02,"text":"圖很好"},{"start":4356.327,"end":4381.446,"text":"許部長,那在4月15日我們在立法院有開了一個記者會就是有關於有兩位肯亞籍的專業表演人士那因為被我們移民署介入調查在今年3月的時候他已經被鑑別為人口販運被害人那這個案子不知道部長知道這個案子嗎?我知道,我們有掌握,我們第一時間就有掌握了"},{"start":4382.106,"end":4398.523,"text":"對,因為這個部分我們是覺得說他當初他是在被引進的時候是以白領、以公視我們專業表演的藝術人才然後後來我們才發現事實上他來到的時候都常常被仲介帶到"},{"start":4399.864,"end":4429.293,"text":"像也帶到台南的某個遊樂場去從事遊樂工作後來也被帶到我們桃園有一個農場去無償做勞動而且甚至還被仲介逼迫然後借錢度日那當然後來這兩個肯亞籍外勞也有打電話投訴到1955然後可是台南市府派員去查去查無不法那不知道針對這一部分部長有沒有什麼看法"},{"start":4431.759,"end":4457.672,"text":"可是看到的是他當初仲介來是以運動藝術專業表演人白領移工可是他來到卻是做我們藍領的工作而且跟他的工作其實根本是不符合的他就是從事許可以外的工作"},{"start":4458.452,"end":4470.363,"text":"對從事許可以外工作這是違法的對後來我們才發現居然這個百里移工他這個表演藝術人居然沒有最低工資的保障是不是這樣"},{"start":4471.729,"end":4500.952,"text":"跟委員報告他其實是有達到最低工資只是說這個最低工資外界質疑說白領用最低工資白領是4萬多嘛對不對跟委員報告因為4萬多現在目前在法律上是像類似工程師啊類似那表演藝術工作依照文化部現在所定的資格他不是以薪資他是以他的專業我們要凸顯這部分就是說他沒有最低工資的保障所以其實他領的錢非常的少但是居然沒有違法"},{"start":4501.852,"end":4517.783,"text":"他還是要符合最低基本工資他還是符合的沒有符合最低白領的基本工資嘛是不是這樣他不是屬於專技人員的白領啦如果專技人員白領要4萬多嘛那他按照文化部他是屬於"},{"start":4518.904,"end":4518.944,"text":"好 沒關係"},{"start":4535.319,"end":4556.177,"text":"那我們針對這一部分我們想瞭解一下那如果像4月15號那天記者會因為兩位肯亞人士也親自現身說法那我們來看一下針對他這一部分我們看一下我們針對他提出在記者會提出的違法情勢跳下一頁"},{"start":4558.779,"end":4585.257,"text":"針對這部分就像剛剛部長有提他在許可外工作那就違反了我們就業服務法而且他是強迫勞動又違反了我們的勞基法然後他也未投保勞保那違反了我們勞工保險條例也沒有投保健保那也違反了全民健保法而且他也沒有提繳退休金那針對我們勞工退休條例也是違反了"},{"start":4585.737,"end":4612.947,"text":"而且他這一部分還是被扣留了他的護照那在我們人口販運防治法也是違反了我們的法令而且最主要他還限制他的人身自由那其實已經觸及到刑法那我想請問一下部長針對這以上他們記者會所陳述這些事實如果屬實的話你看看他違反了這麼多法令那針對這一部分部長覺得嚴重嗎?"},{"start":4614.69,"end":4632.438,"text":"法務委員這當然嚴重一共違反了七項我們就一條一條的去檢視他的行為該依法處理依法裁罰甚至這個有刑責的問題都是要一一來處理好那可是我們又"},{"start":4633.438,"end":4655.964,"text":"發現另外一個問題因為他有打1955我們台南市的勞工局居然去稽查檢查回覆他的回覆居然是說僱主無指派許可外工作他去查緝的結果所以他針對這部分而且移民署已經證實他這是許可外工作還有他也"},{"start":4657.247,"end":4683.343,"text":"台南勞工局也說他沒有強迫勞動而且有給付基本工資可是依據肯亞他們說明他連基本工資都沒有領到然後移民署也證實他這個護照確實被扣留可是不知道為什麼台南市勞工局去稽查說他的護照是自行保管良好那針對以上我不知道我們勞發署跟治安署這一部分到底有沒有去介入調查"},{"start":4683.943,"end":4705.262,"text":"有跟委員說明這個案子我們有跟台南市勞工局業務單位有跟他們聯繫他們現在在做業務檢討包括說你去查訪的時候為什麼都跟後來這些兩位肯亞籍人士所講的都不一致在訪查的技巧、訪查的方式要再怎麼精進這個我覺得他們都應該要再做一些處理"},{"start":4705.402,"end":4727.399,"text":"所以我覺得這個事情其實對我們來講我們覺得不可思議他已經打1955去求救了結果勞工局也去稽查也碰到他們兩位居然稽查的結果是說完全都合法完全沒有違法的事項所以我們針對這部分我希望勞動部要重視這兩個肯亞根本就是假白領、真藍領"},{"start":4731.482,"end":4746.705,"text":"那而且我們一直說我們現在針對目前有8萬多的逃逸外勞我一直也看不到勞動部提出一個完善的改善計畫而且針對這一部分我們現在說實在話那時候我們也有講"},{"start":4747.686,"end":4774.952,"text":"當然引進印度移工等等當然是因為解決我們國內勞工的問題但是我真的希望我們針對印度移工的部分在文化、語言、生活差異還有男尊女卑等等的觀念差異之下我覺得應該要提出一個完善的計畫不然我擔心這個印度移工大量的引進到時候反而造成更多的逃逸的外勞"},{"start":4776.915,"end":4804.227,"text":"會 這個我們會謹慎那我們也會持續的開這個諮詢會議就這些大家所關注的議題跟大家對話那也了解後續的部分大家的一些需求要怎麼做這個我們都會好好來規劃處理對我也希望我們當然我們許部長這幾年來也很辛苦但是我也知道說我們後續新任部長何沛山那不知道他上來之後有沒有辦法接續這些業務去做處理"},{"start":4806.084,"end":4816.351,"text":"報告委應該沒有問題以他的能力跟經驗我想他一定可以把後續的一些工作因為有些工作都是持續的我想何部長這沒有問題"},{"start":4817.694,"end":4828.041,"text":"那我請部長還是要去了解一下因為在這之前我們昨天其實還針對打電話給勞發署去詢問針對這後續這肯亞的問題我們問好像勞發署也沒有去聯繫這個當事人然後也沒有去查核這4月15號"},{"start":4839.008,"end":4866.864,"text":"這個勞團記者會他所開的所提出的違法事項有沒有去一一去查核他們說的到底是不是屬實那我希望這部分勞動部真的還是要去瞭解一下而且我們認為後續是不是針對這些白領的部分我們是不是可以抽打這個電話來查詢然後瞭解他是不是有沒有在許可外的工作我認為這些工作應該不難我覺得我們應該要去抽查"},{"start":4867.324,"end":4867.845,"text":"去瞭解這實際的狀況。"},{"start":4884.406,"end":4885.006,"text":"我希望這一部分還是要多重視一下"},{"start":4913.326,"end":4932.944,"text":"還有針對我們現在我們基本的工資那有很多的工會勞工朋友有在跟我們提起他說當然我們蔡英文政府針對這幾年說基本工資連6年調漲可是據我們了解這基本工資"},{"start":4933.624,"end":4950.111,"text":"喔連八年調漲沒關係重點是基本工資這連續的調漲可是後來我們了解他整體勞工勞工這個整體的實質薪資好像並不是因為基本工資調漲而去做調漲也就是說這個薪資在調漲"},{"start":4951.852,"end":4966.422,"text":"但是我們的物價上漲卻是超過這個幅度所以基本工資跟實質薪資的調漲好像是有出入的並沒有帶動我們整體的生活也就是實質薪資並沒有跟著基本工資去做調漲"},{"start":4967.313,"end":4984.426,"text":"報告委員,因為實質薪資他主要是因為這幾年因為疫情還有二五戰爭以哈戰爭這些國際因素經濟情勢這個造成物價通膨這個當然會讓他感受說好像薪資追不上物價的速度"},{"start":4985.106,"end":5008.804,"text":"但是持續來提升以勞動部負責我們是弱勢勞工、邊境勞工他的最低工資我們是持續的在提升希望保障他的最低的保障經濟生活的保障那也希望這樣能夠帶動一般的薪資能夠提升然後經濟果實呼籲企業經濟果實能夠供"},{"start":5010.885,"end":5026.387,"text":"所以我們基本工資的調漲也是希望帶動我們實質經常性的薪資能夠去做這個調漲也希望說讓我們勞工的生活可以過得更好可是後來有很多勞工朋友跟我們來澄清就是說因為"},{"start":5027.969,"end":5048.25,"text":"這個沒有脫鉤的問題他說基本工資的調漲其實幾乎都是調漲在我們的移工我們的本勞他說他們可以說是一二十年的薪資幾乎都沒有調漲他說因為他們領的並不是基本工資基本工資領取幾乎大部分都是移工所以變成說基本工資的調漲"},{"start":5049.011,"end":5071.403,"text":"他說都是一直調到這個移工對於本勞的調漲並沒有實質上的幫助報告委我可以把數據給你我們每年調升基本工資本國人受益的數字就有200萬人以上這個我可以給你那事實上法律並沒有規定移工進來要用基本工資聘他他其實進來是本外勞"},{"start":5072.603,"end":5081.19,"text":"一致原則平等對待原則照理說他做的工作如果跟本國一樣應該是一樣的待遇所以部長你也稍微了解一下對對因為根據我們這數據齁你看這基本工資跟實質薪資的調漲齁這個部分是有差異表示你看這個你說連八年基本工資調漲可是這實質經常性的薪資他這個"},{"start":5096.443,"end":5097.484,"text":"現在請王振旭委員發言。"},{"start":5129.658,"end":5133.301,"text":"謝謝主席。我們有請許部長。請許部長。是。王委員好。部長好。剛剛透過很多委員的諮詢、發言、還有我們從社會大眾得到的訊息,真的很恭喜部長。過去這6年多來,對於臺灣不管是在促進這個勞動環境的進步,或者是對於我們國家競爭力的提升真的是貢獻良多。"},{"start":5157.838,"end":5181.666,"text":"相信這樣的肯定希望未來部長也有機會持續的替社會做一些事情謝謝委員不過我想大家還是很關心有關於這個國內勞工勞動缺工的這個成因跟有沒有更好的方式來解決這個是我們可以繼續努力的那我就利用這個機會來請教一下部長"},{"start":5182.726,"end":5200.656,"text":"其實我們也知道第一季的缺工是相對嚴重五大業別的人力需求都非常非常的高現在是第二季所以針對於所計嚴重缺工以後的所"},{"start":5201.756,"end":5218.163,"text":"獲得努力跟原先我們預期要解決的目標有沒有一個相對的成績可以讓我們來多了解那再過來我們有沒有根據這個第一季處理的情形要做哪一些的修正或者是改變"},{"start":5220.264,"end":5238.659,"text":"其實報告委員解決缺工的問題其實很多的對策那其實我們都是會以優先媒合國人的就業來針對產業的需求來處理那現在我們其實重點都會先擺在這些青年"},{"start":5240.56,"end":5264.605,"text":"剛畢業的青年還有這個我們這個二度就業婦女還有中高齡中壯世代我們叫壯世代的就業重返職場努力那我們都是有一些計畫我們大部分的計畫都是三年期三年期那以投資青年就業我記得去年我們去年第二期上路我們去年的推介的就業已經20萬人"},{"start":5266.699,"end":5277.491,"text":"二十萬人然後我們的失業率也降到8.01所以這個是有顯著的效果出來那另外就是我們的"},{"start":5279.355,"end":5280.856,"text":"這三年內能夠增加30萬的人力到我們的就業市場來所以這個"},{"start":5306.295,"end":5313.585,"text":"改善缺工那這個都是持續在推進的那都是要一段時間可能要整個年度來看比較準就是說有沒有"},{"start":5314.919,"end":5336.158,"text":"讓這個缺工問題有去獲得有效的解決所以如果一季一季看是相對時間太短看不出它這個服務的變化那以第二個需求量多的就是住宿跟餐飲業那我們也知道04、03花蓮發生了大地震我不曉得這個地震對於相對這種需求"},{"start":5337.719,"end":5361.57,"text":"怎麼去評估它的影響?因為我們也看到媒體說其實花蓮目前的影響是蠻明顯的那這部分不曉得部里有沒有針對這個特殊的事件在因應的時候有哪一些的作為?我們現在其實就是有一個專案小組就是我們的發展署在北分署那邊針對花蓮"},{"start":5365.152,"end":5390.649,"text":"7大措施來做一些協助包括他這邊的就業的協助、零工的需求我們都是第一時間點跟他們需求的單位去做聯繫馬上盤點人數、馬上推介上工希望能夠盡速去做一些解決但是就是說因為他現在那邊的觀光"},{"start":5392.21,"end":5394.232,"text":"我們就是就地來安置找工作機會給他"},{"start":5412.212,"end":5434.494,"text":"所以這個部分我們都有持續在做一些對策的研擬,然後希望能夠達到這個協助的效果。是,如果當地的產業剛好也有需求,釋放出來的人力可以互相的去運用的話,那個就需要麻煩部裡面能夠做一些協助的方法。我們現在針對一些鳳凰創業貸款,還有我們多元單位,我們也幫他行銷啊。"},{"start":5435.034,"end":5435.134,"text":"是。是。是。是。是。"},{"start":5460.297,"end":5477.496,"text":"包括說有六大成因會發生國內缺工包括共享經濟出現了一些變化還有低薪薪資的這個待遇不符期待等等那最後一項就是有關於企業沒有聘用中高齡的勞工"},{"start":5478.837,"end":5502.578,"text":"那這個我是比較好奇的就是企業不聘用中高齡的勞工他可能的這個因素還有我們在做制定政策的時候可以做哪一些的因應包括如果從政策方向來看的話其實就是三大項一個就是勞動力供給不足一個是工作條件不具有吸引力學用落差跟技能不足"},{"start":5503.098,"end":5525.27,"text":"那如果以這個企業沒有聘用中高齡勞工來看的話是到底他的工作條件環境具有吸引力呢還是因為他本身借齡以後他的學用落差造成技術不合引起的這些問題那這個在政策的處理部分我們也看到是希望能夠改善這個友善職場要能夠提供好的這個產學雙贏的"},{"start":5527.911,"end":5529.032,"text":"其實我用這些成因裡面我們覺得我們的了解"},{"start":5543.311,"end":5569.251,"text":"其實這個薪資待遇的部分占很大的因素、很大的比例薪資真的還是偏低還有像企業未聘用中高齡就是說可能環境不友善以外其實很多雇主普遍存在有年齡歧視的問題他一看到是中高齡他就覺得他可能體力、各方面可能不足"},{"start":5569.551,"end":5594.897,"text":"其實在他的體力、體能或者這些可能新資方就是說他的專業需要再技能需要再訓練這個勞動部都可以處理的我們都有相關資源因為輔具啊我們每個人一年有十萬塊喔是每年不是每年他只要對他工作感上有用的我們有十萬的額度你可以來申請"},{"start":5596.297,"end":5619.194,"text":"然後像那個整個那個如果專業或技能不足我們也可以培訓所以這個都沒有問題主要是說可能雇主在心態上他沒有講出來啦但是很明顯就是看著銀髮族就可能就排在第二位了那再來就是薪資還是普遍偏低啦因為現在是市球人嘛那如果一樣的"},{"start":5620.111,"end":5622.073,"text":"但是薪資的部分的確是要再提升"},{"start":5649.674,"end":5667.59,"text":"是,所以我們是很希望僱主能夠針對自己的需求缺工的同時也能夠改善他自己內部的環境讓我們這些中高齡者有意願能夠進到這個職場來因為相較於世界各國我們真的是"},{"start":5668.491,"end":5668.731,"text":"我們現在在努力"},{"start":5695.269,"end":5710.72,"text":"就是我們要用壯士代來代替這個忠告領高領就是希望大家不要把他有年齡歧視他們還是很優秀的然後我們其實希望這樣又透過各種計畫來把這個勞參率能夠提升"},{"start":5711.781,"end":5730.499,"text":"我們有沒有跟這些國家有哪一些的交流或者是能夠掌握他們的都有去考察過這幾年是因為疫情不然以前都有考察那沒有我們也都會搜尋他相關的資訊那希望我們有機會能夠繼續改善這部分"},{"start":5731.38,"end":5745.896,"text":"那其實這個補助申請數相對可能申請人多可是能夠媒合的人相對就不夠這個是希望能夠來繼續努力的那最後來請教一下怎麼去搶人留才"},{"start":5747.017,"end":5772.502,"text":"這樣的這個問題我們知道目前的這個移工人數相對是多的我們看下面一個資料可以發現說我們有蠻多的這個移工是在臺灣那他們也根據一些規定能夠持續在臺灣貢獻他們的力量比如說如果移工在臺工作滿6年以上那他就可以能夠做一些改變然後繼續留在臺灣"},{"start":5773.522,"end":5800.085,"text":"那以目前的這個社福移工就是包括照護等的話有12萬人可是只有1.5萬人他願意申請流財的這個方案那這部分問題是出在哪裡如果說他有這個條件留下來他也有意願留下來為什麼他沒有辦法來申請是這個僱主的因素呢或者是我們的仲介的讓我們這樣的這個好"},{"start":5802.026,"end":5828.992,"text":"想要讓這個移工留下來的這個無法促成這樣的成果我們是每個月統計每個月大概都有一千人接近兩千接近兩千就是產業跟社福分別他大概合計大概有兩千人然後社福是佔了三分之二社福比較多轉任的比較多那他當然會錄因為我們這是八年計畫到2030我們準備"},{"start":5832.454,"end":5853.87,"text":"14萬就是所有的移工決裁9月14萬那其實以現在的我們都已經超標了我們其實照理說我們上路還不到兩年我們其實一般來講我們大概希望一年一萬我們不到兩年現在已經兩萬五千多人到三月底喔是遠遠超標那當時他的申請是會陸陸續續啦"},{"start":5855.791,"end":5866.817,"text":"好,那很希望這樣的方案可以達到發揮它的作用。好,謝謝部長,謝謝。謝謝王振旭委員發言。接下來請蘇清泉委員發言。好,謝謝主席。我請部長。請許部長。"},{"start":5883.639,"end":5906.646,"text":"蘇惠好部長辛苦了功成身退了謝謝希望很快就有高就更好的位置好我今天有一個問題先請教在南部或者全台灣我們一般做肉類的冷鏈加工的它是聘請外屬A級嘛"},{"start":5909.247,"end":5933.684,"text":"那他們聘請外勞是他的員工總數的25%合備比率是沒錯吧對冷凍冷藏我看這邊是25%沒錯但是冷凍冷藏那現在的問題就這個是我們第一批的那個石斑魚從新達出發我去跟他們加油打氣的活魚運搬的"},{"start":5934.364,"end":5949.436,"text":"好,現在的水產加工尤其在高雄跟屏東他們也都是用冷鏈那你職業別你就不行我自己要求是不是能比照肉品因為一樣都是全程都冷鏈"},{"start":5950.537,"end":5971.384,"text":"所以這些的比例能不能給他們調整25%?這個要求不過分了。這個部分是經濟部工業局的產發署。行業分級是他們在評估。我會把委員的意見轉達給他們。認為如果有就是可以的話我們這邊請他們也能夠做一些檢討調整。"},{"start":5972.441,"end":5998.771,"text":"因為現在真的是切人切得很嚴重。這一種我昨天、前天去看我們台低啊,台低也一樣。現在是整個都被關閉了。從頭到尾。這台灣的孩子沒有人要做啦。行事也不錯啊。所以也相對的就是他拼不到合法的工廠,他不敢去拼非法的外勞。"},{"start":5999.831,"end":6025.298,"text":"一般打零工的比如說農業的今天要幾個就來幾個我覺得這些逃跑的外勞跟合法的外勞是台灣安定的最大力量我這裡要跟我們外移工做最好的肯定我們不能再有任何的歧視再有任何什麼都不行因為他們真的對我們的貢獻太大了我跟大家報告"},{"start":6027.596,"end":6048.486,"text":"如果現在農村都老化,如果沒有這些徽法、這些移工來幫忙的話根本動不了在高速、在恆春都一樣所以我們看了都很感動當然勞動部這邊能配合的就要盡量來配合"},{"start":6050.854,"end":6076.041,"text":"能夠讓他們那個身份、留下的身份變成正常是應該的啦。然後再來就是我們要提高他們的待遇啦。事實上現在那些逃跑的移工外勞他們的每天是忌日的。做一天就穿五、兩千、回到兩千多。所以他們比吃頭髮、吃胃還要更高嘛。"},{"start":6078.121,"end":6095.661,"text":"很高了,我們現在拼幾年就採用基本工資兩、三萬塊對不對那一天就可以拿到一千五、兩千一個月就五、六萬跑不掉了所以他寧可跑掉啊所以這個是很糟糕的事情部長,你要先,你要看看怎麼做"},{"start":6097.723,"end":6125.609,"text":"這個我們持續在檢討不過說實在這些私領移工他雖然看起來零日薪蠻高但是他沒有任何他有風險啦然後也可能會被剝削然後也沒有社會保險勞健保什麼的其實說起來也是處境也是慷慮啦所以我們都希望都是合法引進然後希望我們的僱主針對這些合法移工善待給他應有的合理的薪資這樣才能夠留住人"},{"start":6126.863,"end":6146.139,"text":"我看我們在高雄屏東這些產業如果做食品的做肉類的、魚類的事實上他們對外籍外籍移工上面是很善待你要跟我講說會看到什麼什麼什麼林內霸林我告訴你我在這邊贊重講我沒有看到"},{"start":6147.04,"end":6161.353,"text":"而且還會塞一些摩納斯給他們,因為他們不善待他們,又娶沒人啊,又娶沒人,真的娶沒人,而且這個需要量是很大,所以這個政策還是要與時俱進。"},{"start":6162.754,"end":6185.343,"text":"那你薪水太低就沒有人要來啦。我們現在的移工最主要來自菲律賓還有呢?菲律賓、印尼、越南還有泰國。泰國就少了吧。現在比較少了。泰國他自己在發展產業。對對。所以你現在就是要引進印度的移工。那我們初期是要引進多少人啊?"},{"start":6186.316,"end":6202.648,"text":"人數還沒有確定因為我們要看各產業的需求我們要目的世界主管機關像經濟部、衛福部、農業部、內政部來討論說大概有多少需求然後再來決定我跟部長講事實上因為東南亞這些國家"},{"start":6207.819,"end":6212.563,"text":"那印度的移工,印度應該是高加索的"},{"start":6227.605,"end":6237.821,"text":"這個在人類學我們醫學上人類學這個我們就是蒙古系那邊是高加索系那高加索人他的生活習慣、宗教跟我們是完全不一樣"},{"start":6238.686,"end":6258.86,"text":"那你要引進印度的移工進來當然缺人那引進讓那個來源多元化但是你有沒有去想說他們的生活風險觀念跟我們不一樣那大家也對印度還有很多的疑慮那勞動部這一塊是怎麼補強"},{"start":6260.734,"end":6282.923,"text":"你怎麼不能把它引進來丟給仲介,仲介沒有能力,他沒有能力。對啦,那個報告委員所以我們其實也會透過的召開諮詢的會議讓社會大家各個團體專家學者來參與對話讓大家對印度的部分提出給我們一些希望我們再來做一些更怎麼樣的規劃"},{"start":6284.724,"end":6305.934,"text":"讓大家能夠來對印度更了解然後在對於印度的移工的數值的部分能夠予以來肯定有信心這個部分我們會持續的召開會議也會透過各種方式來讓我們兩民眾能夠了解這個要加強因為印度那個國際上一些"},{"start":6306.794,"end":6307.174,"text":"現在韓國也在談"},{"start":6332.288,"end":6358.004,"text":"我們是第二個跟他簽的然後所以這部分我覺得大概但是大家所關心的、擔心的我們都會去化解大家疑慮透過對話你要兩方調適那進來這邊我不能把它丟給一些仲介業者去在磨合的時候我就覺得這個是很危險的這個部分我們會加強還有你們跟印度談MOU"},{"start":6361.047,"end":6361.447,"text":"委員這種MOU在"},{"start":6380.854,"end":6401.828,"text":"就是程序完成之前都是保密的我們也不是只有針對印度之前引進之前4個國家都是這樣還有其他我們各部會跟人家簽MOU也是都這樣完成之後行政院和你自然就是會公布啦所以沒有之後比較特別而且他只是一個大原則而已你看他條文就很簡單我看你13條"},{"start":6404.95,"end":6418.365,"text":"13條嘛那是一個原則就是說大家一個意向書把大原則先談定下來後面的工作層級會議才是重點那才會有實質內容出來我看印度很少提到台灣很少幫台灣講話所以我們這樣一頭熱會當台灣講話只有印度神統"},{"start":6424.631,"end":6444.599,"text":"他都亂講,他都亂講委員我們其實現在跟印度之間的一個交流還蠻密切的然後包括經濟、經貿的投資等等甚至包括醫藥方面也都有印度的那個學名藥的原料藥它占全世界將近30%中國大陸將近"},{"start":6448.662,"end":6453.833,"text":"50%所以這兩個國家加起來是占全世界學民要的原料要供應將近80%"},{"start":6456.178,"end":6475.506,"text":"那印度的那個原料藥的原料跟原始的原料還跟中國大陸嘛所以這個整個都是卡死所以美國說要修理中國大陸原料藥不給他我看他抗生素第二代、第三代都沒有藥啦所以講那個事情都是錯綜複雜沒想到我們想那麼簡單那勞動部這一塊已經外國移工因為現在只有來源國越來越少"},{"start":6483.849,"end":6504.722,"text":"所以我們還是要廣、廣要。緬甸我有去,我有去談過緬甸捏。後來沒有簽嘛。可以再加強這一塊。他們也很喜歡來。現在他們,緬甸我也覺得很可惜。其實我們勞動部之前已經談到某個那個了。但是沒有辦法。我在第8屆的時候還要去跟他們農業部。當然是我們這邊農委會請我去巡查啦。"},{"start":6510.705,"end":6538.456,"text":"談得蠻可以,但後來就沒有成。所以這個可以加強。緬甸五、六千萬人那個地方而且很近。所以可以廣說各個來源國。不然的話台灣這個缺工、缺料、缺專家是越來越嚴重。只會越嚴重啦。不會改善。我們其實不放棄啦。所以過去談了後來促交,就不放棄啦。"},{"start":6540.137,"end":6550.35,"text":"持續透過外交部來評估。外交部做不到的,我們也可以幫忙。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝初卿、全委員。現在先休息10分鐘。"},{"start":7183.732,"end":7212.274,"text":"好,現在繼續開會。現在請鄭天才委員發言。好,主席、各位委員。有請那個勞動力發展署蔡署長,還有延明會﹖請蔡署長。何璐﹖署長﹖羅署長。好,委員好。好,署長好。"},{"start":7214.718,"end":7215.058,"text":"第二十四條．"},{"start":7236.54,"end":7259.017,"text":"就有當初只有6款其中一款就原住民所以當時非常當時的這個立法院當時的政府非常重視不僅僅是這樣原住民這三個字是中華民國的法律第一次出現在"},{"start":7260.97,"end":7274.942,"text":"在法例那時候憲法還沒有修民國83年才修三包正名為原住民所以當時憲法還是寫三包的時候中華民國的法例"},{"start":7276.312,"end":7282.595,"text":"中央主管機關應會同原住民族委員會辦理相關原住民族就業服務事項﹖"},{"start":7306.414,"end":7329.151,"text":"就業服務法第6條現在勞動部一直比較努力的地方是在就業服務法第6條的第6款等一下我們會談你們很努力的在這個地方那園民會的報告那個羅社長"},{"start":7330.39,"end":7356.985,"text":"你的報告裡面寫了這些當然我們的失業率有減少但是這個很多的因素很多的因素這裡面你的報告裡面就業促進特別講了這些事實上你寫了這些那麼長的那麼長的跟今天的主題其實是很多都沒有關係的"},{"start":7358.556,"end":7372.755,"text":"今天主題是就業服務法三十年然後相關的這些然後你寫了一堆這個很多都是新的法律才有的譬如說原住民族委員發展法"},{"start":7374.198,"end":7395.754,"text":"是我在立法院推動然後相關的這個以推人員然後是這個相關的這些足以專職業專職化都是我在立法院推動的像那個長期照顧服務法也是新的法例然後我們特別請衛福部一定要那個原住民族的專章"},{"start":7397.71,"end":7420.936,"text":"然後相關的這個文化健康站的推動經費的協調都是我去那邊協調的所以這個部分寫一堆這些這樣的話大家會以為原住民的就業已經完全就沒有需要了會這樣的所以這個部分"},{"start":7422.711,"end":7450.429,"text":"人民會怎麼樣去協助真正去協助你也提到我們的那個薪資差額還是超過一萬以上啊對不對像這個怎麼去努力去協調這個才是一個今天你的報告裡面太多的這個跟今天的主題沒有關係的部分所以都把它訂進去像工作權保障法"},{"start":7451.553,"end":7453.955,"text":"這是今年4月25日勞動部在這裡的一個報告"},{"start":7479.167,"end":7481.971,"text":"延攬外國專業人才。112年3月6日,勞動部跨國勞動力政策協商諮詢小組召開第35次會議。"},{"start":7501.094,"end":7515.528,"text":"會議結論．原則同意營造業引進營造移工採階段性先行開放總額8000名並視實際情形可增加開放至1.5萬名。請問一下署長現在開放進來多少?"},{"start":7521.76,"end":7547.147,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個部分是內政部國產署那1.5萬名是以他的設定的條件去做分配那目前據我們的瞭解他這個1萬5千名大概大概就是已經陸陸續續在合配也接近快要合配多少大約人數大概1萬2再回覆對1萬2差不多快要接近再順便提供給我"},{"start":7549.93,"end":7574.311,"text":"委員會有沒有參加這個會議?有。所以這是一個很嚴重的需要去檢討的地方。這個外國人從事就業服務法第46條第一項第8款是第11款工作資格一再的修一再的修修了18次"},{"start":7577.231,"end":7600.972,"text":"這8年來修了18次很重要的一再放寬 我們都放寬沒有關係但是不要把原住民禁用的唯一的條款就刪除掉了你們沒有反對啊 羅處長當初開會還是你們就沒有注意看這個條文就這樣"},{"start":7602.253,"end":7614.281,"text":"保障原住民金融還是要還是要有為什麼外國人進來切功我們支持但是不要保障的條款以後再放進來不容易啊"},{"start":7615.785,"end":7616.385,"text":"接下來請林淑芬委員發言"},{"start":7653.301,"end":7657.144,"text":"主席各位大家午安是不是還請我們許部長請許部長林委員好部長好我們促進就業服務法第一條明文規定第一個開宗就明義就宣誓是為了促進國民就業還有以增進社會及經濟發展在這種狀況裡面我們知道那個時候時代的時空背景30年前我們開放外勞的時候"},{"start":7680.6,"end":7687.384,"text":"對於這個引進外籍移工那希望做一個產業結構上的調整那因為有怕受到衝擊所以我們當然要有這個就業輔導就業促進這樣的一個機制而當時的時空背景是這樣產出的可是這樣外籍移工到現在"},{"start":7698.53,"end":7725.692,"text":"人數已經來到了七八十萬了七十五萬對七八十萬七十五萬在這種狀況裡面我們的確要好好的檢視今天這個就業服務法上路三十年了這個法律裡面有什麼結構性的問題要處理那我們先從他的這個現行的法律來看第一個就是說雖然是就服法呢但是裡面卻是以外國人的聘僱與管理的篇幅最多大概有22個條文"},{"start":7728.054,"end":7743.227,"text":"排除了這個總則和法則以外管理外籍移工的聘僱和管理的有22條公司立就業服務機構設置和管理的有17條其實也是為了管理外籍移工所設的這個中介這個機關機構的這個管理"},{"start":7746.91,"end":7766.745,"text":"但是以促進就業就業促進的篇幅反而在裡面是最少的只有13條所以一般我們外界都認為說就服法就等同於跨國勞動力的管理法一般都會著墨於說我們對於就業促進的這個著墨太少了"},{"start":7767.745,"end":7789.138,"text":"所以呢另一方面我們就講說那雖然是一個跨國勞動力的管理法但是有關外國勞動力的部分一直有很多衍生性的問題包括這個就業服務機構仲介剝削移工的問題然後也招移工團體去抨擊說這是一部反公共、反自由、反平等的法案"},{"start":7789.818,"end":7813.237,"text":"所以我們今天在這裡就依據你們的書面報告來檢視救福法翻修的歷程你看整部法律到底是什麼在翻修在修法的程序裡面還是以外國人聘僱案管理部分這部分的修法次數最多高達了30年來高達了16次的修法但是以就業促進的修法只有5次"},{"start":7814.398,"end":7827.826,"text":"然後弱勢就業的修法三次然後兩度、二度就業婦女的這一種六類人員納為這個特定對象就是弱勢就業這三次是為了納入這個弱勢就業"},{"start":7831.397,"end":7859.765,"text":"但是呢禁止就業歧視的也修了4次那這個他禁止這個就就業歧視就擴大這個就業歧視所禁止的範圍所以我們要問部長就是說這個整個法規的法律的架構是否符合就業服務法第一條的立法的意旨我們要這個促進就業在立法的體系上那你又要如何強化促進就業的角色和功能"},{"start":7860.365,"end":7884.3,"text":"那大家今天問了很多次說那有沒有討論到說有沒有考慮到讓促進就業跟這個外國勞動力這個脫鉤兩個法就直接分開因為兩件事情的確是分屬不同領域而且以這個跨國勞動力的管理來講真的是很複雜也很需要大幅的很多的修正這樣子"},{"start":7885.595,"end":7906.714,"text":"報告委,我的確覺得說就整部就業服務法來看本外國勞工的規範的確是失衡那再加上說其實現在的這個移工人數越來越多我是認為未來這個跨國勞動力的管理的規範事實上是可以朝向專法的"},{"start":7911.458,"end":7925.369,"text":"對那我們也可以再做一經過這30年的演變吼可能各自不管是本本國勞工外國外籍勞工我們都可以去做比較整體完整的規劃各自在不同的專法裡面去把它做更完善的規定"},{"start":7926.781,"end":7929.844,"text":"是但我今天在講說加強強化這個促進就業的這個繳算功能裡面我們這13條裡面其實未來如果要脫鉤也一樣這13條裡面有13條的條文那主要是第23條針對了檢"},{"start":7945.537,"end":7962.938,"text":"檢辦休息僱用安定措施還有第24條的這個弱勢就業這個對象定出了他的就業計畫發給津貼和補助金但是我現在跟你分享第一個就是我們針對特定弱勢對象以身份去分類"},{"start":7964.659,"end":7984.965,"text":"這樣子的就業促進的政策和對策到底是不是妥當的因為我們現在說以獨立這個負擔家計者、中高齡者、身心障礙者、原住民等等去檢視他的身份然後看他是否仍然具備有高就業力然後檢視問題是問題是這個身份"},{"start":7988.366,"end":8001.23,"text":"就身分別去給他這個擬定計畫然後做出津貼這樣是不是恰當因為我們來促進就業可能更需要檢視的指標是這個失業的衝擊對失業的這個個人失業時間的長短失業期間是不是比他的身分別這種指標還更重要"},{"start":8012.714,"end":8030.046,"text":"你失業多久了?我要給你多少的量身訂製讓你有促進就業的計畫?我的經驗要怎麼給付?而不是說你是什麼身份這樣子所以失業期間到你三個月的還是六個月、九個月、十二個月以上我們要提供不同深度的就業諮詢和就業促進的措施"},{"start":8031.027,"end":8059.206,"text":"那第二個就業促進的職業訓練津貼你們這個職業訓練津貼也是以身分分別你到底是中高齡的還是身心障礙的你作為勤領的年限那只有身心障礙者可以高達這個最長一年的勤領職業訓練的生活津貼那其他身分別大概是六個月那我今天要討論這個是說到底身分別來給他促進就業計畫和給他津貼到底是不是最妥當的"},{"start":8061.167,"end":8072.567,"text":"那以像這個身分別光是身分別來看每個都只能領6個月身心障礙可以領到12個月這個6個月和12個月的標準的差異在哪裡啊"},{"start":8074.935,"end":8095.156,"text":"對,報告委員當然當初的立法或者說這些計畫用身份別可能有他的考量他可能針對說他有不同的屬性去針對他的需求去做一些規範但我覺得啦剛剛您講的也是有道理我覺得未來這個部分我們再重新再檢視在新的規範裡面去做一個比較充分的"},{"start":8095.937,"end":8121.433,"text":"也應該要了,到30年了當然這個修法沒那麼久但是就是說我們也擔心用身分別去促進就業的進展去保障就業促進的這個進展恐怕也會排除了真正的需要的勞工為什麼呢?因為以身分別這個會排除的例子就是像你現在提的二度就業婦女的再就業計畫"},{"start":8122.754,"end":8144.09,"text":"你們這個裡面好像看起來像要照顧因為家庭需求而中斷職涯的婦女但是也有現在社會很多元啊又單親的父親就單親家庭的父親他因為照顧家庭或者是說即便是雙親那現在也流行說是"},{"start":8145.091,"end":8148.493,"text":"所以我們看到你們介於弱勢的就業對象多元"},{"start":8165.302,"end":8184.584,"text":"雖然母法沒有明列啦但是你們核定計畫還是用身分別在核定那你們就依照身分別還是用身分別去給人家這個促進就業的協助可是我剛剛講那個例子你就排除了真正需要的所以你們的促進特定對象及弱勢者就業"},{"start":8186.125,"end":8212.811,"text":"補助作業要點那你們在這種裡面你們還不斷的在擴充其實擴充到適用毒品者、脆弱家庭者然後危機家庭、犯罪被害人、人口犯孕被害人或疑似被害人、遊民等等其實那個都已經不在母法24條裡面所列舉的身份裡面了你們還是不斷的用你們的辦法沒有母法的依據裡面用你們的辦法在擴充但我們也不是說不"},{"start":8214.351,"end":8214.611,"text":"但是呢﹖"},{"start":8235.761,"end":8252.092,"text":"我們現在還要再回歸到這個法裡面最多的就是外籍、跨國勞動力的這個管理的問題一直在講就業跟人權外國勞動力這個單獨立法你剛剛講說也是一個時機是應該你也支持嗎是"},{"start":8254.124,"end":8271.65,"text":"但是呢以人權保障為核心的包容性的外國勞動力政策要從這個救福法裡面抽離單獨立法但是我們目前就目前的既有的法律裡面還是很多有人家認為是直接歧視的條款"},{"start":8272.85,"end":8296.469,"text":"比如說家事勞動欠缺、勞動條件保障、移工被排除在部分的社會保障以及僱用形態所衍生的風險和人權侵害、移工的管理制度遭非營利組織詬病涉及人口販運但是你們在未來裡面有一個要修正的就是說你們要加重在這個"},{"start":8298.13,"end":8324.921,"text":"第41條有一個修法嘛你們要加重處罰則改採每個人頭罰款的方式非法僱用、非法仲介對仲介那你們要去強化僱主案私立就業服務機構的管理責任但是你們這個是要管理的41條的修法是要管理國外的仲介公司啊國外的國外的嘛沒有國內"},{"start":8326.201,"end":8344.352,"text":"就是非法,我們的國內的僱主要非法聘用這些失聯義工或國內的仲介公司沒有你們是要納管,我現在講是你們法案還在你們院裡面還沒有出來你們未來要將國外的人力仲介公司納管這件事你們是列入了考慮嗎?"},{"start":8346.141,"end":8372.769,"text":"但我們現在講的是說現行管理國內仲介你們都沒有辦法杜絕剝削的情勢然後你們現在講說你們對於這個這個改革上你們還要再納入這個國外人力仲介公司的納管所以這是我們怎麼會沒有你們要修41支1條啊本國仲介"},{"start":8376.015,"end":8379.135,"text":"對啦但是本國仲介以外你們要納管國外仲介啊"},{"start":8379.775,"end":8389.378,"text":"我們針對國外中間是針對失聯如果失聯率我們未來就是在那個雙邊的那個談判裡面你們現在有一條要納管你們好我現在就跟你講說其實我們剛剛我之前跟你講21世紀的經貿協議還有現在歐美歐美整個市場上對於環境勞工議題上很嚴格的把關以外還有一個RBA的集合你知道RBA的集合的概念"},{"start":8406.863,"end":8419.589,"text":"RBA他們要採取的是﹐尤其是電子產品要採取最高的社會環境和道德標準確保勞工得到善待是最高的喔所以電子產品的企業社會責任聯盟"},{"start":8423.742,"end":8443.273,"text":"這個已經是跑在我們整個國家或國際的規範的最前面了而我們在這種時間時機也已經到了到了一個說我們對於勞工環境的議題所以媒體已經有披露到說台灣也要將禁止強迫勞動商品輸入這個"},{"start":8446.214,"end":8463.722,"text":"行政院初步決議要由內政部修人口販運法禁止強迫勞動產品輸入而且這個強迫勞動產品要由給勞動部去認定海關去執行那請問你要如何執行強迫勞動產品的認定你們要怎麼認定這個行政院都還在就是說大概大原則是這樣但後續還有一些討論"},{"start":8475.277,"end":8492.371,"text":"討論了很多次了這個新聞都露出了我國你跟禁止強迫勞動產品這個禁出口禁出口所以今天很多人在問你印度勞工引進的事情我們看到就是說禁止強迫勞動產品輸入可是我們也有輸出的這個"},{"start":8495.051,"end":8496.673,"text":"但是我現在就問你最後一個問題好了啦就是說"},{"start":8516.152,"end":8538.05,"text":"這個印度移工的職聘國對國的職聘有這麼難嗎?你們的MOU簽的是在現有的制度下雙方推動國對國聘僱請問這個到底是國對國聘僱還是現有制度裡面的這個仲介引入這個路徑也可以到底是單軌還是雙軌報告委員我們現在現行的就是還是"},{"start":8544.298,"end":8565.41,"text":"我剛剛講是你們的MOU簽訂的內容對 我們未來在工作層級會議裡面我們會希望以國對國來引進作為優先啦作為優先因為你們MOU就是寫說在現有的制度下現有是雙軌了嘛對 雙軌 對但是你們下面有寫一個雙方推動國對國聘僱是"},{"start":8567.771,"end":8571.735,"text":"所以是有優先因為我們知道說為什麼講這個這個RBA還有這個國際市場的要求還有對強迫勞動商品的輸入輸出我們的電子產品的輸出都是一樣所以才有我們電子產品的這個半導體廠商他們要已經要用零付費的這個方式去買工了嘛就引進啦去引進啦"},{"start":8595.655,"end":8619.94,"text":"所以這有企業的需求不是我說整個社會的架構已經來到一個允許你在這一個印度引進模式裡面真的要好好的單軌國對國的模式然後去聘僱啦這是最好的契機也是剛好符合我們這個時代現在的需求而且我們"},{"start":8621.42,"end":8629.9,"text":"你知道經濟部已經訂了一個產業鏈的台灣供應鏈企業尊重人權指引你知道嗎經濟部"},{"start":8632.305,"end":8661.226,"text":"我有這個印象經濟部已經訂了一個台灣供應鏈的企業尊重人權指引如果他再更進一階叫做供應鏈責任法有人在講說你們應該訂出供應鏈的責任法要人權責任法所以這個就是代表說你對於移工的政策也到了一個很大的這個進展是需要勇敢的要邁向政府要扛起責任的時代啦"},{"start":8662.011,"end":8688.224,"text":"否則的話再用那種雙軌然後再交給仲介我想我們的企業會失去這個競爭力甚至會遭受到抵制我們現在講我們禁止剝削勞動力的產品輸入講的是新疆棉可是未來整個RBA的檢視他告訴你說你這個企業不符合這個或是涉及到強迫勞動"},{"start":8690.746,"end":8715.147,"text":"這個對我們國家的企業的形象傷害很大的時候我們也是有可能產品輸出也是會產生問題啊克不容緩已經是要國對國要引進的時代了那剛好就業服務法裡面我們也認為促進國民就業跟這個跨國移工的管理政策要脫鉤啊兩部要變成兩部法要單獨專法了啦"},{"start":8716.068,"end":8732.79,"text":"所以你要離開了不過我們也是希望你可以反映讓政策延續下去是好謝謝好謝謝林淑芬委員現在做一下宣告等一下在洪孟楷委員質詢完畢處理臨時提案一案現在請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":8744.178,"end":8746.982,"text":"王偉浩部長好,延續著上一次質詢的主題也就是蔡英文總統這8年來對勞工所做的六大承諾實踐的狀況"},{"start":8763.188,"end":8786.933,"text":"2016 2016年1月8日的時候蔡總統在電視政見會上說我不會拿勞工朋友的權益在選舉時候開空投資票做政治操作這句話說得非常的好政見開出來是拿來旅行的不是拿來騙票的更不是拿來做選舉操作的"},{"start":8788.053,"end":8800.752,"text":"因此,我們上次回顧了有關於薪資要增加、工時要減少這兩項勞工朋友最關心的議題之後我們今天進入第三項"},{"start":8802.102,"end":8828.57,"text":"也就是針對非典勞力的部分我們來看一下蔡總統怎麼說的我們要走向一個進步的社會就必須要立法保護非典型的勞工首先要訂定派遣勞動專法我們派遣勞動專法訂了嗎報告委員沒有訂專法那這樣子蔡總統有沒有跳票對但我們把一些派遣請你回答問題這樣有沒有跳票"},{"start":8829.298,"end":8851.957,"text":"沒有,報告委員,我們沒有訂專法啦齁那但是我們有把一些勞工這個派遣勞動權益最重要條文我們有讓他入法所以你覺得夠了嗎當然你覺得夠了嗎我們認為就是務實中追求理想啦齁當然還不夠啊但是會第一個承諾要訂專法跳票"},{"start":8853.049,"end":8862.658,"text":"第二個,你說把東西放進去,你承認還不夠。第三個,要訂定部分公使勞工保護的相關立法,有做嗎?你覺得現在對於部分公使勞工保護做得夠嗎?"},{"start":8879.335,"end":8880.216,"text":"用要點來處理喔?蛤?來嘛"},{"start":8897.062,"end":8923.611,"text":"我就一樣一樣實事求是我從來不跟你談抽象的問題定例勞動派遣專法沒有定定例部分公使勞工保護的相關立法也沒有立我們進一步去看蔡英文跳票連監察院都看不下去這個是2019年監察院所提出來的報告這個是通案性案件調查研究報告"},{"start":8924.795,"end":8949.986,"text":"在這個報告裡面他就明白的講啊政府沒有直接針對派遣勞工保護法召開協商會議改朝向行政指導、行政措施與蔡英文總統所接駐訂定派遣勞動專法相悖這個是監察院的調查報告這不是我講的所以我才說啊連監察院都看不下去了"},{"start":8950.871,"end":8976.901,"text":"部分工時的部分也是一樣檢察院在調查報告的時候也講得很清楚了他說部分工時的勞工在勞動關係當中處於相對的弱勢然後你剛剛所講的注意事項要只有具有行政指導的性質沒有辦法落實相關權益的保障對於檢察院這樣子的批評部長你接不接受"},{"start":8978.308,"end":8980.529,"text":"我這樣講好了啦8年前提出來的承諾"},{"start":9003.53,"end":9029.31,"text":"到今天檢驗實際上面還是跳票勞動部要有個態度勞動部要有個態度這些都是具體開出來的證件這不是騙票這也不應該做選舉操作這個是蔡總統說的嘛好我們來看一下部分工時的勞工他沒有特休假的比例是變高還是變低"},{"start":9032.748,"end":9052.985,"text":"這是你們的調查報告啊如果按照你剛剛所講的啊要適用勞基法啊要落實啊那不對啊怎麼會沒有特休假的比例會越來越高呢這不是落實啊這是越來越糟糕啊這是惡化啊這是你們勞動部部分工時勞工就業實況調查報告啊部長所以你剛剛講的不對嘛"},{"start":9061.621,"end":9072.452,"text":"你說要是要勞基法啊、要落實啊現實上就沒有嘛我有說錯嗎?繼續檢討嘛來第四個保障目前台灣工會的涵蓋率相當低啊"},{"start":9082.014,"end":9103.776,"text":"我認為要逐漸提高工會的涵蓋率、修改工會法不合時宜的限制、促進工會組織真正的自由化這件事情有做到嗎?這個當然有 這個整個涵蓋率有 還沒有達到理想啦我覺得這部分應該要持續再努力啦"},{"start":9104.404,"end":9129.606,"text":"還沒有達到理想持續要努力部長你真的非常會講關話抽象的空話非常會講來我們來看一下央行2023年他一直在檢討一件事啊跟我在提出的薪資要增加這個訴求直接相關了因為我們受僱者報酬在我們GDP的比例過去這幾年是逐漸惡化越來越糟糕"},{"start":9130.871,"end":9147.842,"text":"我在這個系列的質詢的第一次就跟部長講過這件事了我們央行提出來的解方是什麼這是央行講的啊央行是很重視啊我們的經濟發展連這麼重視經濟發展的中央銀行都看不下去啊中央銀行怎麼講"},{"start":9149.13,"end":9176.323,"text":"我們目前產業工會的組織率他講2021年7.8%低於南韓的12.5%日本的16.9%因此政府以協助並鼓勵中小企業的勞工加入產業工會或適度降低工會籌組的門檻以提高我國工會的組織率進而強化勞工對薪資的溢價能力部長 贊不贊成央行的建議"},{"start":9178.284,"end":9201.426,"text":"當然央行今天我們是會來尊重也應該要來檢討那不過就是說在現實上因為我們臺灣的這個中小企業占了98%那在你說得很好中小企業占很多嘛現在我們主公會的門檻是多少我們要30人央行說要適度降低主公會的門檻 贊不贊成"},{"start":9205.502,"end":9222.802,"text":"這個齁其實我的業務單位這幾年都一直在研議啦研議了八年了嘛三十個人要不要調降研議了八年你也知道台灣絕大多數是中小企業阿阿三十個人門檻高不高很高嘛連央行都講話啦"},{"start":9224.619,"end":9253.695,"text":"沒關係啦我不是這個委員會了主席站起來比較快按你按得比較兇啊我尊重我尊重但我今天檢討蔡英文勞工政策六大保障我從第一個主題開始薪資要增加工時要減少非典就業的保障到現在主公會的問題每一個承諾都是我們賴總統對勞工朋友莊嚴的承諾有做到沒有做到該怎麼檢討部長我知道你要卸任了啦"},{"start":9255.407,"end":9261.054,"text":"我知道您要卸任了我希望下一屆的勞動部的部長以此為鑑謝謝接下來請麥玉珍委員發言"},{"start":9282.17,"end":9284.971,"text":"有請勞動部部長,謝謝主席。想要請教一下我們政府已經在2022年已經禁止中介要收中介費也是建立了職聘的管道請問部長認為我們國家職聘的移工政策是否完善?"},{"start":9313.824,"end":9341.974,"text":"我們當然職聘成立以後我們有持續在精進讓他們能夠簡化因為我們現在的移工的引進我們是採多元就是說僱主他可以來使用職聘他也可以委託仲介他也可以自己引進那很多的因為一開始就是用開放的時候就是仲介來引進所以大家的習慣職聘成立到現在也一段時間那當然或許大家會認為"},{"start":9342.814,"end":9343.335,"text":"但我們也持續在檢討希望讓大家能夠"},{"start":9351.8,"end":9374.502,"text":"是的,所以我們就覺得就是還有很大的空間要進步這個部分其實也跟我們報告我們也困難也不只說我們自己的國內制度要怎麼來把它簡化、精簡另外就是來源國這邊像越南、印尼他們就是比較不願意採資聘"},{"start":9377.044,"end":9396.643,"text":"應該是沒有不願意採職聘是因為我們沒有一個窗口去採職聘沒有沒有窗口都有對窗口也是中介啊不是政府對政府我可以帶你去跨國事務中心看我們的外國人事務中心就在中華路那邊我們有一個中心喔"},{"start":9397.444,"end":9415.209,"text":"中心是在台灣嘛對台灣啊對但是我就說直聘的話是國外要跟老闆去直聘你要沒有這個完整的移工的資料外國他也要成立一個窗口對外國他也要成立一個窗口跟我們的窗口來對就好啦"},{"start":9415.689,"end":9435.115,"text":"但是如果是那麼完整的話 剛才你為什麼說還沒有那麼完善呢 有那麼完整應該是有很完善啊 所以就不會造成說不是很完善啊我所謂不夠完善就是說 譬如說我們國內端的部分 可能還有很多人認為程序比較繁瑣"},{"start":9436.235,"end":9441.4,"text":"但是國外端有他的問題。希望就是說把就是移工的資料庫還有我們的顧主想要聘任的他們都是很容易就是找到移工移工也很容易跟顧主直接這樣子的話就會減少說仲介"},{"start":9463.319,"end":9492.671,"text":"對﹖對﹖對﹖對﹖對﹖對﹖對﹖"},{"start":9493.051,"end":9515.056,"text":"變成還是一樣透過仲介嘛。大部分還是透過仲介嘛。就像日本、韓國。日本、韓國的話都是應用。現在缺工。所以日本、韓國像我們越南到韓國。像我嫁來台灣。我就可以推薦我的家人過去那一邊工作。有出事情。"},{"start":9516.161,"end":9533.002,"text":"我要負責要逃跑我要負責有可能因為我的家人我推薦的人逃跑我就會失去台灣拿身份證的資格所以我們希望的是說我們要如何就是真正的可以去管理還有協助"},{"start":9533.642,"end":9537.107,"text":"不只是說設在那邊,好看的用不著,這樣也不好,所以變成花政府的錢。所以我們希望說,我們部長都說,就是我們有這樣子的一個優化的拼顧的環境,讓我們的企業可以去應用。"},{"start":9552.165,"end":9568.465,"text":"也有讓說國外的移工他可以透過這樣子就不用透過仲介嘛所以雖然有這樣子的話都請部長在大概兩週內可不可以給我就是一個書面的報告完整的是說我們有這樣子的"},{"start":9569.488,"end":9596.913,"text":"有這個機制有這樣子的的完整的讓我們可以幫你去做宣傳當我們的企業才能應用的到不是政府放在那一邊說我有啊我有啊因為我有但是你用不用是您打的事這樣子就不行所以說你說有但是為什麼部主沒有沒有想要去用就是因為不便民嘛才會造成這樣嘛所以現在"},{"start":9599.193,"end":9621.166,"text":"如果是有這樣子的機制又有那麼好的環境的話為什麼我們今年就逃跑移工四年移工就達到八萬多人所以這個部分我們請教一下我們的部長你是如何去解決說這八萬移工在台灣如果他們生病了"},{"start":9622.006,"end":9649.709,"text":"他們就傳染是全國的人誰要負責所以你覺得說有沒有什麼策略來去解決說逃跑移工因為我們有失聯移工的申請問題還有我們的僱主有要去有時候就是為了兩個恩怨去報說他逃跑給他去休假兩天但是又去報他說失聯也有"},{"start":9650.57,"end":9666.005,"text":"所以這個地方要我們可以去協助,所以這個部分有沒有說移工失聯的部分,部長有沒有什麼解決的方案?不好意思,因為時間的關係,我簡單講,第一個,失聯為什麼會突然暴增到八萬多,是因為這三年的疫情。"},{"start":9667.607,"end":9686.247,"text":"這個邊境管制他進不來,進不來國內又缺工,所以這個造成……進不來缺工為什麼還要逃跑呢?缺工就不用再逃跑嘛,有雜班就不會再逃跑嘛,因為是有問題才會逃跑嘛對不對?不是有問題啦,不一定是他有,不一定是顧著,有時候說是移工希望追求更高的薪資啦。"},{"start":9687.388,"end":9690.55,"text":"因為疫情的時候大家都缺工,所以工作更多不會去逃跑的。這樣你是保證說現在已經沒有疫情,所以我們的移工逃跑力就不會掙扎了嗎?所以在疫情逃跑,然後最後一個問題,因為時間的問題"},{"start":9708.38,"end":9722.98,"text":"最後一個問題主席給我一分鐘最後一個問題我們關於就是現在我們現在地震的時候是不是大家看一下我們是大家看這個照片"},{"start":9723.661,"end":9741.837,"text":"是不是我們要去看護工的時候我們要去照顧這個移工因為地震他還爬上去保護他的雇主但是呢但是呢我們是家庭看護還有家庭幫傭是沒有勞保的"},{"start":9743.182,"end":9769.702,"text":"這個保障沒有勞保的所以這個部分的話誰來保障他們這個部分我們請部長一定要去尊重一定要去對因為在家庭看護工他沒有保障的這個部分所以呢我們希望說我們大家看護的病座沒有這樣子的保障還有我們最近我們是沒有保障還有說我們的"},{"start":9770.883,"end":9786.197,"text":"台灣的看護工也沒有我們現在是不是我們台灣的看護工是不是現在我們都什麼都講我們薪水漲但是看護工的薪水沒有漲所以很多的看護工的對他們說漲的一點點還有他們就說比如說我來這邊這一家裡我照顧一個小時"},{"start":9793.524,"end":9793.804,"text":"以上報告,謝謝。"},{"start":9822.23,"end":9826.715,"text":"好謝謝麥玉珍委員的發言接下來請洪孟楷委員發言主席謝謝麻煩請許部長請許部長"},{"start":9844.269,"end":9867.44,"text":"部長好,即將卸任,媒體早上也有請教你,你也講是說新接任的勞動部長可能會面臨到兩大問題,缺工跟保險的部分,是不是?我想大白話,本席之前也講過說在這集委員會裡面跟你好幾次的一個質詢也講到是說至少我覺得你算是一個可以溝通的人,"},{"start":9868.38,"end":9875.85,"text":"那既然可以溝通我想在你卸任之前我想要確認一下既然你也提到缺工本期特別去找一下缺工這個議題從什麼時候開始?"},{"start":9878.049,"end":9904.6,"text":"媒體報導三年前就開始2021年就可以找到有工廠無人座相關報導我們也聽到很多的產業界給我們的問題醫院開不出床不是沒有病床是沒有護理人員餐廳沒有包廂不是沒有包廂是沒有服務人員飯店沒有房間並不是因為沒有房間而是因為沒有房務人員所以"},{"start":9906.428,"end":9933.993,"text":"到底現在我們臺灣面臨到的問題過去三年過去了我們現在缺工的總數有沒有統計我們到底缺多少工大概我們大概23、4萬左右23、4萬那過去這三年我們的努力到底是缺工人數越來越多還是有減少目前看起來好像還是沒有這個整個人口結構的問題其實現在不是只有臺灣"},{"start":9935.413,"end":9954.991,"text":"全世界先進國家都面臨同樣的問題但我的意思是說我們這些面臨人口結構我們還是要想方法像過去我們一直認為說這些壯世代我們的勞參率其實比起韓日是低的那我現在怎麼樣來"},{"start":9956.152,"end":9982.558,"text":"也想要延長這個退休年齡嗎?不是延長退休年齡,不需要延長因為很多是,我跟委員說他是早退,譬如說委員,很多55歲我們發現55歲退出職場的,非常多我們在55歲之前的勞參率跟韓日差不多55歲以後,欸?差了20%那我就一直在想說,我怎麼把這些20%的,我開發個一半就好了"},{"start":9983.356,"end":9984.057,"text":"我們國內的這些"},{"start":10000.679,"end":10005.962,"text":"是,部長請你講到重點這也是本席要提到就是說很多人會講說現在少子化、高齡化這兩個議題造成說我們國內好像很多工作沒有辦法有人做"},{"start":10028.214,"end":10051.756,"text":"但是重點就在於是壯世代的這一個部分怎麼樣能夠讓年長者其實相對來講我們現在的一個生理年齡跟身體年齡其實是比以前我們的傳統概念來的來的不一樣的所以這一點也是本席也跟我們在座包括吳承存委員啊包括很多委員我們也希望是說政府應該要重視未來壯世代這一塊"},{"start":10053.698,"end":10063.489,"text":"所以報告委我們大概就是從去年開始我們就有一個三年計畫針對壯世代的部分我們希望至少這三年可能多增加30萬的勞動力進到職場來然後"},{"start":10069.982,"end":10096.02,"text":"有辦法嗎?我覺得我們有信心啦因為我們其實是雙管齊下那讓這個不管是在...部長我們希望看到的是真實的狀況因為其實本席剛剛都特別提到2021年就已經缺工了到現在2024年還在講缺工甚至部長要離開前給下一任部長最大的忠告、提點就是缺工"},{"start":10097.261,"end":10110.398,"text":"代表過去三年的時間並沒有完全的解決問題甚至並沒有讓國人感受到你有在解決問題報告委員其實2021那時候還在疫情期間其實會有很多因素去影響到"},{"start":10112.579,"end":10132.527,"text":"來這樣子三年的計畫你今天給本席個資料到底這三年計畫目前進度以及半年進行好不好那拉回來另外一個部分講到缺工我也講到是說對於勞動力的保障夠不夠這是本席過去到現在也一直在關注所謂外送員的專訪"},{"start":10134.246,"end":10157.896,"text":"到目前為止不要說外送員專法從2022年我們要提出勞動部就有講過說希望能夠制定外送員勞動權益指導原則到目前沒有下文只有各縣市政府有做一個指引各縣市政府的議會有通過自治條例但是我們勞動部最應該處理的勞動權益指導原則沒有出來"},{"start":10158.837,"end":10179.614,"text":"報告委員這個我們在整個當然專法那部分我跟委員報告真的會比較難一點為什麼因為現在全世界就只有西班牙有實施專法可是實施以後發現並不理想就是說不管在這個勞工端或者雇主端都會有一些不是他們原來想像的那麼OK"},{"start":10180.555,"end":10207.668,"text":"但是你的權力指導原則為什麼一直沒有出來?權力指導原則我們其實有研擬但是我們現在比較重點就是放在幫助這些平台跟外送員做對話因為他們很多問題就是說其實他需要因為一個原則是就是說原則嘛但是他們更需要是實質的解決所以我們常常會遇到說比如說他突然新他的外送單的報酬被砍了那你說定原則"},{"start":10209.059,"end":10233.73,"text":"那原則他我們就不准啊可是還是沒有解決所以我們現在部長這就是我下一個問題啊如果你又沒有專法然後你又說原則無法去約束比如說平台跟外送員之間的一個權利不對等那我們到底要怎麼解決而且更重要的是我們建立一個對話平台更重要的是我就正想講現在有對話但是沒有有效的溝通啊"},{"start":10234.19,"end":10258.726,"text":"是各說各話這是你講的在各說各話的情況就是很多的外送員從去年到今年都講了他們的外送權益越來越少外送的薪資報酬越來越少當然這個外送平台跟外送員的權利不是傳統的勞資關係但是從以往一開始外送員一單可以有70塊到現在兩單40塊還有變成是整單0塊"},{"start":10262.648,"end":10280.056,"text":"那就變成是平台的這個待遇平台的這個報酬的狀況他可以自己來做調整但是外送員沒有辦法去反抗外送員沒有辦法去爭取啊那這樣你覺得這算是有效合理的溝通嗎這個問題齁有時候就是說英文叫外送員多啦變成"},{"start":10281.837,"end":10300.23,"text":"競爭這也是一個一種競爭啦過去可能外送員少他的報酬他每一單的報酬會比較高一點可是當當你外送員多的時候那你可能市場這些這些消費者單子少的時候就會產生可能會報酬會變少但是我們都"},{"start":10301.271,"end":10301.831,"text":"我差點都以為你要講出蔡總統的名言"},{"start":10315.694,"end":10331.389,"text":"你剛講說外送員以前外送員少現在外送員多所以平台他怎麼砍是因為他可以有事無口反正有勞動我都很怕你講出之前蔡總統明年那外送員你自己去跟你的老闆講啊沒有沒有我沒有講這樣"},{"start":10333.911,"end":10344.243,"text":"我知道跟你說有些狀況 有沒有注意到外送員的權益持續被減少那我們做了什麼努力 既然我們的原則沒有出來專法也沒有辦法立"},{"start":10347.449,"end":10374.492,"text":"我們到底現在有什麼樣是可以至少取得一個平衡我其實站在天秤的兩邊外送平台是一個技術的產業是一個APP方便大家民眾的生活能夠讓餐廳有外送平台以及外送員來幫助也讓餐廳有一些業績的一個增加尤其在疫情期間確實有增加外送員也可以選擇自己的工作但是如果說當某一個天秤請向那邊"},{"start":10375.413,"end":10375.573,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":10398.959,"end":10424.745,"text":"有沒有要繼續推動還是只是一個空話還是能夠定期外送員跟外送平台勞動部來當公卿勞動部定期找外送員外送平台來喝咖啡我們現在就是我們是正式會議啊我們每次都針對這些爭議的議題都會邀有定期嗎?有有有定多久?"},{"start":10427.443,"end":10449.314,"text":"有會議記錄供給大家看嗎?供給工會那是不是能夠因為本席在質詢的時候要相關資料其實是要不到的其實是沒有看到公開的其實是沒有展現的我覺得這一點這一點部分您剛也提到了這就是外送員有那麼多"},{"start":10450.434,"end":10474.73,"text":"外送員他也想要了解他的權益那如果說定期有開會剛也講了一個月到一個半月真的有開會的話那也應該適時的要揭露讓所有外送員可以知道外送平台就那幾家但是外送員進進出出我覺得這一點也是讓國人了解說到底他們有什麼樣的權利如果說真的進入之後勞動部是可以真真正正當外送員的靠山"},{"start":10475.903,"end":10491.782,"text":"所以未來是不是能夠把我們的定期的會議紀錄也公開在勞動部的網頁?這可以做得到吧?對 給工會啊但我現在講的是說外送員他畢竟他不是每一個人都有參加工會"},{"start":10493.325,"end":10509.263,"text":"那你照理講而且很多人可能目前還沒有那如果說有的話其實我覺得你既然有開會你也既然覺得是說你們是可以持平的一端來找外送平台供外送的話你的會議紀錄就可以公開這樣可以嗎?可以多久可以把之前的會議紀錄一起公開?"},{"start":10512.404,"end":10521.254,"text":"一個禮拜 勞動部的網站上面把我們過去的會議記錄以及未來定期開會可以放在網路上讓人家來搜尋"},{"start":10527.432,"end":10530.296,"text":"臨時提案有鑒於我國不當勞動行為裁決委員會乃勞資爭議處理法在98年全文修正後所開始運作之法定邊阻"},{"start":10542.834,"end":10561.392,"text":"然而經查勞動部自該時施行裁決作業契金近年雖辦理有視訊作業要點和勞工及工會出席裁決會議交通費要點二項規定卻仍然無法有效解決外縣市人員所遇參與不便利及權益不平等之施政缺失"},{"start":10562.253,"end":10577.72,"text":"原此特決議請勞動部針對在中南部設置不當勞動行為裁決嚴易可行性於一個月內向立法院社會福利及衛生環境委員會提交書面報告提案人委員陳金輝、王育敏、邱振軍宣讀完畢"},{"start":10579.194,"end":10592.789,"text":"請問行政單位有沒有意見?謝謝陳委員的書面提案。我在這裡可不可以請委員我們就改幾個字。就是在到主第三行,設置不當勞動行為裁決委員會加三個字。就是在裁決之後加委員會。"},{"start":10599.637,"end":10609.926,"text":"以上我們以下的其他沒有意見同意同意好好謝委那就照文字修正通過好那臨時提案全部處理完畢接下來請吳立華委員"},{"start":10626.16,"end":10632.052,"text":"謝謝主席。有請勞動部長以及原民會。請許部長。請原民會羅處長。"},{"start":10634.708,"end":10663.123,"text":"務委員好部長好部長其實我們今天來討論就業服務法上路超過三十年我們也已經有了原住民的工作權保障法但是呢根據我們原民會所做的一個資料111年度的資料原住民的就業現況其實還是低於全體國民很多以工作收入來講大約少了一萬元"},{"start":10664.324,"end":10690.555,"text":"家庭年平均比全體國民少了52萬低收入戶的比率全體國民的4倍從事非典型工作的也比全體國民高出10%我想這個現況其實是告訴我們還有很多帶努力的空間為了這種改善就業的困境其實我們也都多方的努力以這個就業服務法第12條來講"},{"start":10692.236,"end":10710.787,"text":"他設置這個法條20多年他說原住民人口達2萬人以上的縣市得設立因應原住民族特殊文化的原住民公立就業服務機構那我也質詢很多次之後謝謝部長您勇於認識"},{"start":10712.068,"end":10737.225,"text":"您在2022年就正式的函文說確認發布補助地方政府設置原住民族就業服務據點計畫那非常感謝您因為我們的目標就是希望能夠有一個公立的就業服務機構那目前從去年到今年我看到也有屏東、高雄、台中、新北、台北、桃園6個縣市提出那也許未來還會陸陸續續有更多的縣市提出"},{"start":10742.368,"end":10769.716,"text":"我在這邊就是要特別的來講一下因為這個原民會的就業服務據點辦公室他用的是原住民的綜合發展基金因為以前雖然救福法有這麼規定但是沒有人設立沒有地方政府願意所以原民會也就用原住民綜合發展基金來扛這件事情在各地也都設有這樣的一個就業服務員跟救福站"},{"start":10770.296,"end":10790.775,"text":"那現在他的預算來源是公務預算還有那一些人家繳交的貸金、支息等等來做這些事那我想先請教一下我們的部長就是未來我們的目標是要有公立的原住民就業服務機構部長您可不可以談一下這個未來我們可以繼續怎麼做繼續推進這個我想我們都有"},{"start":10796.024,"end":10796.284,"text":"所以這個方向"},{"start":10822.771,"end":10828.286,"text":"我們還是要去談那未來勞動部有什麼樣的方向其實我上個月有找兩個部會來談過了"},{"start":10831.154,"end":10851.928,"text":"我們基本上不反對啦。我是覺得地方政府要組織員了,他要編啦。那勞動部可不可以極力幫忙主張啊?因為這是救福法裡面規定的啊。對對對,這個沒有問題啊。沒有問題。我們會支持啊。好,那原民會...對,勞動部你們是主管機關啊,要支持啊。我們是主管機關,沒有錯,但是..."},{"start":10858.092,"end":10871.309,"text":"現在變成立委一直質詢一直質詢啊對 我們也在鼓勵他們啦我也沒辦法強迫說你一定要怎麼樣因為畢竟他還是但是要有主張啦就像你找到方法了嘛我們就往前推進一步嘛 對不對好 那請教一下園民會羅處長齁"},{"start":10874.993,"end":10892.731,"text":"那現在原住民就業基金它的支出成本就降低了嘛因為勞動部這邊也有設置這樣的那我們也朝向目標是整病未來成為公立的救福中心可是我希望的就是我們原住民族重發基金啊"},{"start":10893.971,"end":10916.943,"text":"應該是要讓他去做一些促進就業的事情因為我們剛剛第一章就看了就就業情況很糟都已經民國113年了我是說要多做一些就業促進的事情我之前也質詢在原民會就是我講的安心上工讓他常設常態化因為部落很多青年要返鄉"},{"start":10918.024,"end":10938.43,"text":"他不足以支撐他做的這些什麼露營廠事業那也有很多部落的高齡還有工作能力的我更更加捨不得的是那些很多洗腎的病患他根本沒有辦法出去找到工作但是他還有工作能力那我不曉得這個安心就業計畫現在做的怎麼樣"},{"start":10940.794,"end":10954.435,"text":"目前我們是加強宣導有關勞動部的益後改善、缺工、擴大不要講益後改善啦,我說長社啦對,會協助主任升級,但是本會也會有一個就業獎勵的措施,擴大原住民勞工獎勵,最高會一萬元"},{"start":10955.436,"end":10971.808,"text":"那其他我們會按照委員的一個指示來去做那希望就是早一點啦我還是要個報告好了好不好一個月好好的研擬那主席我再問一個問題好嗎那今天我們談到原住民工作權保障法他的修法重點你們說是擴大禁用範圍你們也預估會增加13796個工作機會但是我知道的是這是公部門嘛"},{"start":10980.134,"end":11008.191,"text":"那你是要擴大招考我也都沒有意見齁能不能補得滿至少他就是開了很大的工作職缺我現在比較關心的是私部門的那在這邊我們看到原住民工作權保障法有提到公共工程及政府採購的保障但是我要說看得到吃不到啦我光是提一個你應該就知道了雖然原住民工作保障法第11條這麼說可是我們來看一下原民會齁這幾年工程會的統計資料我看到哇"},{"start":11008.891,"end":11033.676,"text":"很那個下降捏逐年下降捏就是原住民承攬到的案件越來越沒有捏然後跟其他的像可能你們會說履約地點要在原鄉可是台北市政府沒有沒有原鄉啊台北市沒有原鄉啊但是他還是可以去做的原因是因為他的履約地點他會放在原鄉例如去郊遊到花蓮這樣了解嗎"},{"start":11035.856,"end":11054.541,"text":"那我覺得原民會作為一個原住民族事務的主管機關結果呢比沒有原鄉的台北市比一般的縣市做的成績還要低的時候那個就很不應該囉那我們來看一下你看這個有一個是什麼圖卡提升原住民文化敏感度的圖卡規劃設計勞務採購案"},{"start":11057.102,"end":11069.877,"text":"偏偏旅業地點寫新北市而且還寫非原民地區你叫原住民廠商你叫這些個人要怎麼去得標啊你看另外一個最近辦的這個督魯他的預算原額是27777萬"},{"start":11073.101,"end":11087.996,"text":"超過150萬公告那你怎麼讓原住民廠商參與這種事情多麼可惜這個原住民來做跟一般廠商做絕對是不一樣我在這邊只是要提醒希望我們原民會要想方設法"},{"start":11088.416,"end":11108.003,"text":"原住民的人也是一個產業 廠商的培育也是一個產業 如果我們不能夠帶頭 我們怎麼有辦法讓我們的就業率 讓我們的年平均所得提高 原民會這個部分也希望給我一個月內提出一個報告 那這個部分最後就是提醒 這一次的災後很多災民"},{"start":11109.163,"end":11128.632,"text":"都失業啦 那勞動部有開兩千個啦 原民會好像沒有明確的數字但是我就是希望不要設限 核實的提供這一些 像很多人在飯店工作都沒工作只要他來登記需要工作 確實是災民 我希望勞動部、原民會都不要限額 可以嗎好 沒問題齁 謝謝部長 謝謝處長 謝謝主席"},{"start":11135.292,"end":11144.639,"text":"謝謝吳立華委員。在這邊做宣告,中午不休息,質詢到登記委員發言結束,再三會。現在請牛許廷委員發言。好,謝謝主席。勞動部長有請。請許部長。"},{"start":11159.707,"end":11174.434,"text":"委員好部長辛苦了今天談就業服務法這個談歧視禁止跟外國勞動力的權益保障那第一個問題是歧視禁止的問題這個就業歧視分成直接歧視差別對待跟間接歧視就差別影響這兩種類型"},{"start":11176.115,"end":11200.449,"text":"那當然這個禁止就業歧視法這個實施運作已經還蠻多年那這種一望即知的這種直接性的這種歧視基本上已經大幅減少了對不對這有點成績但相對來講相對來講有的時候我們講上有政策下有對策這個直接歧視變少可是這個隱匿難以明確辨識的案件類型叫做這個間接歧視的案件反而"},{"start":11200.909,"end":11227.398,"text":"有變多的這個趨勢比如說顧主爭財的廣告我們現在談平等的時候就會說他不會講說限年齡限性別因為這叫直接歧視可是他會說這個壯志青年女性家這樣子一個訊息等於打擦邊球那個客觀上來講其實對於特定群體的就業機會就造成什麼負面影響進而剝奪了勞動市場平等參與的一個機會那按照主管機關勞動部長認定應該屬於間接歧視對不對"},{"start":11230.399,"end":11257.745,"text":"是好有這樣一個狀況嘛那大家現在面對這樣子的一個問題的時候你勞動部的解決方式是什麼?你有沒有一些積極的作為?呃 包委如果像這種當然要看個案啦那種間接的部分齁就是看個案然後其實每個地方政府都有就業就期會好如果有人來申訴的話齁其實就是可以召開這個就期會的會議來我是希望做一下的統整然後我們也會來宣導齁"},{"start":11259.005,"end":11277.321,"text":"對 因為你宣導嘛表示你一定有做資料的收集你一定有彙整你大概也會知道常見的這種間接歧視的樣態是什麼那既然你都知道這樣的樣態的時候其實你可以比照比如說有些時候我們講說這個管食安的時候就不能廣告不實他就有一個檢核表哪些方向是採線的你要你至少有一個框架出來嘛"},{"start":11277.861,"end":11294.71,"text":"那相對來講這種避免這個就業的間接歧視的這個相對來講的廣告的檢核表我認為這是勞動部可以做他其實難度不高成本也不高稍微做一下整理然後你拿這個表格去做宣導是不是讓這些廣告業者或什麼的他也有法可以遵循嗎可不可以這部分我希望"},{"start":11295.71,"end":11324.313,"text":"勞動部來做一個研擬跟處理啦好不好這小的事情但我想這對於這個反歧視這件事情我想是有正面意義的那第二個要談外國這個勞動力的權益保障現在當然我們去談經濟發展的時候大家一方面我們也常常在這個委員會談到就是嘆嘆的焦慮對不對但相對來講我們在勞動部質詢的時候談到人權焦慮啊因為現在大家都希望說用一個好的人權標準去保障勞工的權益那這個有這樣子的一個機制然後去促進所謂的"},{"start":11325.034,"end":11351.714,"text":"自由貿易所以它過去叫道德加分題但現在叫做法律必考題因為你如果沒有完成這些東西其實在對產業相對來講競爭力就會受到一些影響現在我們去談外國勞動力引入的問題比如說美國責任商業聯盟RBA就有講零付費行為準則以及等等諸如此類的過去都從建議開始變成強力要求換言之我們在引入外籍的移工"},{"start":11352.795,"end":11377.148,"text":"投入本國的勞動就業市場的時候這部分應該是未來勞動部門面對很大的一個挑戰所以我們現在政府明文禁止收仲介費對不對因為避免仲介變成形同人口販運嘛 對不對但是現在一樣嘛我剛剛講上有政策下有對策現在不收仲介費叫每月服務費就一樣嘛他有換湯不換藥那個不一樣那個仲介費跟服務那個服務費沒有勉強的那個就是說你有服務才"},{"start":11377.648,"end":11395.946,"text":"才有啦對但是實務上的機制來講他常常就變成我換一個方式來做轉嫁我就提醒一下那第二個我今天要談主要的問題啦是說既然我們未來都有這樣的需求我們終要面對這樣子的一個問題那我們是不是應該多你勞動部其實有提供所謂的直接聘僱的的政策方案對不對"},{"start":11396.707,"end":11416.195,"text":"但是以我們在這個基層的了解其實程序還是非常的繁瑣啦所以以至於實務上來講大概是方便嘛那當然仲介業者存在的道理就是因為解決這些以南雜但是我可以理解但是既然未來我們會面對這樣子的一個問題的時候我是要求勞動部這邊啊你至少在直接聘僱的這樣子一個機制裡面你要有一些政策的誘因嘛"},{"start":11416.795,"end":11426.504,"text":"你要去鼓勵企業、鼓勵商家或者是鼓勵個人來講你可以多加的使用直接的聘僱去降低這個中間的紛擾這個方向部長應該不會反對吧?"},{"start":11426.504,"end":11437.075,"text":"不會好不好那方法是什麼呢?我們現在有職聘的服務中心對不對?但你只是到有一個窗口去做事那本質上... 不止喔那個我們其實不會說只是一個窗口收文件而已"},{"start":11437.495,"end":11449.045,"text":"但是具體的程序因為我們有去明查暗訪實際上程序來講很繁瑣有沒有什麼其他的精進措施可以減低行政成本我們持續在檢討然後我們最近這個月內也會在開會邀請相關的團體相關的專家學者大家就這個怎麼樣的精進"},{"start":11459.674,"end":11466.777,"text":"這個經濟方案是希望來做啦就是說提高企業在執聘機制的一些誘因嘛比如說給予政策補貼、優惠或什麼的你節省他一部分的成本去鼓勵他走執聘的這一條管道這個我覺得這是可以可以被商量那第二個就是我們也不是全盤否定仲介業者但既然仲介業者存在你總要有一套完整的評鑑、檢查跟集合的機制嘛這個優劣分級要更清楚你們現在有具體的分級機制嗎"},{"start":11485.663,"end":11503.224,"text":"好不好 這部分也要同時來做強化就是說鼓勵職聘然後中間要納款要越來越處理嘛我們才能夠因應這個這個未來這個所謂的人權焦慮的這個問題啦這我想不管部長也可能下一站不在勞動部但是我想這麼多的事務官都來聽背信這該做的事情是不分"},{"start":11504.906,"end":11505.226,"text":"謝謝牛許廷委員接下來請張祺凱委員"},{"start":11538.663,"end":11539.824,"text":"謝謝主席。請阿村保定。"},{"start":11568.51,"end":11570.31,"text":"一群在臺灣沒有身分的人,移工為什麼要失聯?"},{"start":11595.091,"end":11609.078,"text":"提出這個就是要探討這個問題我看你們也提了很多的相應的這個措施嘛包括你說你要召開這個跨部會的這個合作要加強輔導僱主、加強選工避免僱主的不當對待你看這個人可憐的失聯移工撞死了一個年輕人你看他應該是沒有駕照對不對也沒有強制的這個保養所以他也沒辦法理賠啊"},{"start":11623.192,"end":11650.366,"text":"這事情很嚴重耶是 我們 報告委員 這個我們會來 協助啦看有什麼方式可以 要怎麼協助啦 我這個會啊 會後我請同仁來好 你也很有名就輸 這個人民關鍵的事情我們都很善良的人 無論如何我也跟他幫忙第一你看這個移工出了這個問題 這失聯的這個移工他起訴審判完 大概 可能連審判都沒有 大概整個遣還嘛他沒有保險 你看這個人 這年輕人"},{"start":11653.03,"end":11663.937,"text":"家裏面大概不可能得到什麼禮賠啦好不好 想一下看怎麼幫好 幫你倒三缸好好 就請委員跟我們講這個案的外來事務那第一件事就是 各位參議員 古年代的公料"},{"start":11664.892,"end":11665.752,"text":"我看你們的那天"},{"start":11689.11,"end":11692.571,"text":"你提的是說人數有在趨緩嗎?你剛才說還有人嗎?我看這個趨勢圖我現在查的是你勞動部這就是你勞動部的資料你看喔這個圖我看了兩個地方我是"},{"start":11704.608,"end":11724.01,"text":"會覺得是大問題第一就是2021的3月到了2022年的8月向充電報紙要衝上去嘛 對不對這是第一個 這可是疫情啦可是最嚴重的 我覺得痛嚼中的 這個趨勢就是痛嚼中的 什麼就是衝上去之後3年居高不下"},{"start":11725.441,"end":11750.915,"text":"對嗎?就標示說你9年在日本城 你說要去處理啊現在結果人越來越多 現在創歷史新高現在是8萬5千2百2十九個委員這是包括不是移工啦 包括其他外國人士都包括在裡面你說不是只有4年的移工嗎?這不是只有移工喔 這不是只有移工喔他這裡包括預期居留的外來人口 外來人口不是只有移工現在剋掉多大一個人 那個4年的移工你現在的統計是多少?"},{"start":11753.757,"end":11755.5,"text":"我剛剛扣掉齁,大概..."},{"start":11762.662,"end":11787.082,"text":"我跟委員報告現在如果以失聯發生的移工像111年其實人數是最高一年有4.1萬發生失聯但是因為經過我們跟移民組因為要加強做一些查詢112年就隔年已經降到一年降到3.1萬就是從4.1萬降到3.1萬這第一個第二個比率因為比率會受到整體人數因為我們現在疫後因為一直在引進"},{"start":11788.123,"end":11811.064,"text":"因為移工人數增加之下但是我們的失聯率還是改善下降我們現在失聯率已經從最高5.96%現在已經降到百分之這個4.2% 不好意思近來比較多嘛 失聯比例是算是降可是人數看起來還沒走對不對 但是人數也降 不好意思我先說兩個重點好不好第一個當然我知道那時候衝上去後來是因為疫情嘛 所以後來疫情結束以後你們做一些改善嘛"},{"start":11812.064,"end":11835.896,"text":"可是老實講人數還是多的我現在同關心的其實是第一部分就是說你雖然比例可能有降低可是人數還是多嘛對不對我們不要讓人家第一個不要誤解了這個順目字第二不要讓人家覺得好像粉飾太平或者沒有沒有解決問題這樣就很好我以為我們絕對不會粉飾太平我們的面對問題這是跟大家講的說的確是有降因為要看失聯率比較準比例有降啊人數可能沒有對不對"},{"start":11837.497,"end":11860.778,"text":"因為進來的人比較多,跑掉的也多,所以...對,但是我們持續會努力,因為這個事情可能還要一段時間,你就像疫情之後,它也是延續了第三年,哇,全部都撐起來。那我們現在邊境管制解封了,我們現在各種,包括該開放我們的開放,還有一些媒合,包括提供家庭康復工的薪資待遇等等,"},{"start":11862.079,"end":11872.508,"text":"我覺得我有信心後面會持續降下來。會持續降。會持續降。那我們先來看一下怎麼...所以不是說我們這樣就覺得不滿意。絕對不滿意。絕對覺得不滿意。我們繼續努力。部長,你人要怎麼找回來?你知道四年的移工第三所在嗎?你怎麼找人?"},{"start":11882.315,"end":11909.344,"text":"因為這個部分大概其實我們知道現在大部分都是在營造農業最多啦營造農業茶器當然茶器是移民署他們的選擇啦我們當然是配合的單位國安團隊也配合啦這個部分當然我意思是如果知道就算了快點處理啊 對不對一直留在那裡移民署我們當然不希望這種不幸的事情再發生啦 對不對如果說他們在那裡也可憐恭喜大家你如果看你說那10年的移工"},{"start":11910.896,"end":11932.125,"text":"對﹐"},{"start":11932.245,"end":11951.953,"text":"移民署我們他這邊也加強查緝啦包括像去年就鼓勵他們自動到岸等等這個我們都各種多元的措施來改革這個問題這個問題就是我們都是報告會阿聖部長你現在要離開這邊我們來做一個叫做找回失聯移工的計畫好不好會負責嗎來來看看來半年來最少要把10%的這個失聯移工找回來今年這標準應該不高吧"},{"start":11963.005,"end":11986.545,"text":"20%可以這樣嗎?我們訂個目標好不好?我們來跟這個委員這個是一個很好的一個期許我們來跟移民署這回來拍拼好不好?好不好?訂這個目標你給我個計畫我本來想說一個院內提計畫你就照去了我早早配在那裡沒關係啦這樣沒有啦業務單位還在然後新的部長會來不用煩惱你要不要早一點你520離開之前你給我這個計畫"},{"start":11991.149,"end":12004.003,"text":"這是一個月內給我這個計劃好不好這個計劃你怎麼訂當然就是要早一點去知道人在哪裡早一點去把它找回來那第二個目標我們非常明確喔半年要降10%一年降20%所以要求應該不高吧 對不對"},{"start":12005.165,"end":12014.034,"text":"我們跟移民署來討論,因為這是要跟移民署來討論的。對啦,討論完,第一,各位來,你要給我一個機會。啊,第一,裡面最重要的就是這兩個重點,好不好?好,好,可以齁?各位來齁。你等下隔夜我馬上再找你來。這個案就這樣定囉,OK?至少這個目標要達到。一年內要降20%,把這個事業移民權...其實這好事情啦。"},{"start":12030.169,"end":12032.149,"text":"謝謝張祺凱委員接下來請吳春成委員發言那個部長請許部長對許部長"},{"start":12057.04,"end":12082.743,"text":"剛才阿凱在問說一個月要請你教,一個月你還在嗎?你會教嗎?一個月內,我講我這時間太白了,全部幾天啊。對阿凱。我今天請幾號?245號。我今天請何部長。你確定會去高雄嗎?你會去高雄嗎?高雄嗎?有確定嗎?我住高雄啊。我要回家啊。我20以後就回家。回家做什麼?"},{"start":12084.853,"end":12099.767,"text":"我要問一下部長的下一步啊我要先休息一下因為有6年多我有看到說休息為了走更長的路對啊對啊然後我再好好想一想我的壯士在第三人生要做什麼對所以我今天就是要問你這個問題因為你將心比心"},{"start":12103.01,"end":12131.641,"text":"對不對?像這個我覺得這個退休突然通知好像時間也太短了突然通知然後人生的一個計畫來我們看一下就是這一點我還是這個一來我想今天也不是要質詢最主要是表達慰勞之意謝謝這個部長真的辛苦6年多在這個崗位上的工作"},{"start":12132.941,"end":12151.077,"text":"但是的確未來路很長,你現在很年輕啊,你壯世代啊,一定要規劃第三人生,而且你要做勞動部長一定要以身作則,做為典範,因為我們現在退休的人有600萬人,"},{"start":12152.478,"end":12178.681,"text":"就像這樣我們整個的政府都在為60歲以前的社會來打造社會你打開60歲這扇門一推出去就是這個景象一片沙漠一片沙漠然後我來問部長請問這個60退休以後歸誰管政府哪一個部分在管退休以後的人退休"},{"start":12181.113,"end":12205.854,"text":"有沒有人知道?好像幾乎想不出來就表示沒有人在管自己管自己自生自滅這邊有六百萬人所以部長特別是這樣子勞工一輩子都在為我們工作貢獻社會所以在這裡也特別為他們請命就是其實這還沒有退休前"},{"start":12207.624,"end":12229.98,"text":"勞動部應該扛起這個責任好好地來回饋他們不是只想說他們趕快怎麼去退休趕緊照好 對不對你現在心情應該是更加的更加有所感觸但是很多人也跟你一樣這個我們這麼多的退休的族群"},{"start":12231.241,"end":12258.671,"text":"那剛才我也聽到了這個其實我們退休以後大部分的人真的不知道要做什麼一開始不曉得部長你現在心情是很像我們在當兵快要帶退的時候就很開心你現在心情怎麼樣很開心期待還是就是比較輕鬆其實當部長每天都沾沾津津其實大部分的人就是其實不管是去工作工作這個大部分人"},{"start":12259.631,"end":12274.817,"text":"對於退休都沒有規劃都沒有計劃就突然好像有一個中的病毒那這時間到以後就想要退休其實他是沒有任何準備的你看這數據當中都沒有"},{"start":12276.823,"end":12276.943,"text":"接下來﹖"},{"start":12301.617,"end":12314.854,"text":"我們現在的中高齡及高齡者就業促進法裡面有提到這個就是在退休前一年可以提供這個退休的準備調適還有相關的協助"},{"start":12318.288,"end":12343.881,"text":"只有一年的時間,你想我們的孩子要用十年的時間去從第一人生,他要進入第二人生,他要用寒窗十年,無能問考的準備,然後呢,但是我們從第二人生要進入第三人生幾乎都沒有準備,像要跳斷崖一樣就突然想到一天就跳下去了,然後就回不來了。"},{"start":12344.801,"end":12354.572,"text":"那我覺得在這裡去銜接第二人生、第三人生、勞動部我想接下來"},{"start":12355.737,"end":12375.194,"text":"那整個的但是退休的準備也是非常的簡單只是辦理什麼辦理課程、團體活動、個別諮詢就是大概很簡單很簡陋的應付一下那其實這個一年前告知其實我覺得好好把這事情"},{"start":12376.415,"end":12378.117,"text":"對於退休規劃的想法、然後這個對於退休的預遷的準備"},{"start":12403.338,"end":12420.592,"text":"謝謝委員其實去年我們在推這個壯世代的就業的時候就已經有一些想像了然後上一次拜訪委員之後我們其實業務單位都已經把這個納入他們盤點的重點所以這個委員您放心啦我們業務單位一定會全體服務你會交代就是了已經交代了"},{"start":12422.553,"end":12425.975,"text":"接下來請鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員、鍾嘉斌委員不在接下來請何新淳委員發言"},{"start":12452.981,"end":12456.803,"text":"謝謝主席黃昭薇。我們請部長,請徐部長。何委員好。部長辛苦你了。謝謝。謝謝你這6年來的付出了。那今天我想我們關心的是就業的部分。那你也知道在中部地區很多的這個外籍移工、外籍人士。那剛剛有張委員提到"},{"start":12479.593,"end":12496,"text":"昨天發生的在臺中地區這個臺體大的這個棒球選手學生被失聯的外籍移工撞死那很遺憾很悲傷那失聯的外籍移工如何去做管理我覺得這個剛剛你有承諾要勞動部"},{"start":12499.981,"end":12502.041,"text":"臺灣外國人當然就包含外籍移工這個外籍人士的事故統計"},{"start":12527.286,"end":12550.319,"text":"這個是這個道安資訊網裡面所download下來的前4名越南、印尼、菲律賓、泰國那再下一個居留地以六都之中我們台中它的死亡人數最高受傷人數、死傷人數算是排前3名那死亡人數以台中市為最高"},{"start":12552.061,"end":12568.775,"text":"這牽涉到我們台灣的交通安全協會也曾經指出來現在台灣的移工跟新住民的比例越來越高所以他們常使用的運具、交通法令以及對於台灣獨有的交通特性他們可能不是那麼瞭解"},{"start":12569.335,"end":12591.311,"text":"那是不是要更多加宣導我曾經在我們本委員會也包括質詢過不斷的在倡議其中有一點是什麼外籍移工最常使用的對不起是什麼慢車微型電動二輪車就是我們的電動自行車那這個在我上一屆擔任立委的任內我"},{"start":12592.071,"end":12611.398,"text":"提案也謝謝交通部支持、行政院支持,我們把它納入強制的納保、納管。掛牌啦,對不對?我們在合慣例。但是呢,這還是有一個過渡期。我現在新進的移工、新買的電動自行車我可以完全掌握,因為要求它掛牌。"},{"start":12613.839,"end":12629.845,"text":"但是呢已經在臺灣在我們110年度修法之前已經在臺灣的外籍義工他們所購買的電動自行車有沒有納管有沒有強制掛牌我們正在"},{"start":12630.885,"end":12633.248,"text":"拜託勞動部是不是可以加強宣導因為呢"},{"start":12653.288,"end":12674.335,"text":"外籍人事的事故的統計噪音來在下一個表格你知道嗎我們從這個道安資訊網上面查到的前10名有這麼多狀況這個不知道部長知不知道可能你們還都不知道你們沒有跨部會去盤點這些database這些數據來告訴我們"},{"start":12678.173,"end":12704.502,"text":"我們現在對電動自行車的騎乘交通法規的宣導雖然我們有越南語、泰語、印尼語、英文版但是我們在宣導的時候只宣導什麼你知道嗎這三項要戴安全帽、不可以改裝、不可以載人就只有這三項可是你再回到剛剛我給你的那個頁面我們的造勢前十項的因素是什麼"},{"start":12705.922,"end":12713.147,"text":"沒關係,因為剛剛那個那一頁是交通部提供的,我們就這樣。我建議,我更一步建議,勞動部要跟交通部來建議,更重要的是勞動部可不可以在我們外籍移工要進來台灣之前的一個教育宣導,"},{"start":12727.097,"end":12747.264,"text":"是不是可以加強?因為你們現在入國前的宣導30分鐘的影片裡面包括他的工作權益啦、申訴啦、安全啦各項法規通通擠在這30分鐘的影片那入國後的宣導呢啪啪啪一堆但是呢對交通交通"},{"start":12749.086,"end":12775.497,"text":"臺灣的交通法規、你運具上的騎乘的安全臺灣的這個道路系統等等我們完全沒有宣導我們完全沒有宣導我們其實除了30分鐘的影片以外進來的時候我們也給他守著還有我們會請他加入Line8Line8 那個就隨時我們會有拋訊息像這些我們都可以在我希望啦我們在交通安全、交通法規"},{"start":12776.497,"end":12790.096,"text":"還有對於我們道路系統的一個相關的安全的問題我們可以再多花一點時間用多元的方式去加重宣導加強我們的交通安全的相關的規則宣導"},{"start":12791.658,"end":12810.275,"text":"我覺得這很重要啊拜託拜託啦這個是為了移工好為了新住民好也為了我們大家好因為生命是無價的大家都不希望有任何的交通意外事故不希望有任何的死傷尤其呢這還會牽涉到剛剛有提到一件事"},{"start":12811.618,"end":12824.413,"text":"外籍移工剛剛那個是10點撞死台體大的學生部長你說你身為律師你卸任之後你也願意去幫忙我們現在在交通的這個意外事故後衍生了很多什麼保險理賠的問題"},{"start":12827.566,"end":12849.226,"text":"所以這個都是我希望透過勞動部跟交通部跨部會的合作我們共同的來在事前就預防就宣導就告知不要在事後發生問題我們才來遺憾才來怎麼樣怎麼樣好不好這個是政策是延續的請我們勞動部的同仁們可以加強好不好謝謝謝謝"},{"start":12851.974,"end":12872.615,"text":"好,謝謝何欣淳委員發言。接下來請翁曉琳委員、翁曉琳委員、翁曉琳委員不在。接下來請羅志強委員、羅志強委員、羅志強委員不在。接下來請賴士寶委員、賴士寶委員、賴士寶委員不在。接下來請林倩琪委員、林倩琪委員、林倩琪委員不在。"},{"start":12892.779,"end":12894.2,"text":"接下來請陳盈委員發言。委員好。"},{"start":12923.949,"end":12946.377,"text":"委員長好,我今天問題很簡單,就是原住民男性以這個從事營建工程的這個比例有占了24.76%,那所以每四位原住民勞工就有一位從事這個營造業,那再來就是說因為我們在去年"},{"start":12947.977,"end":12968.948,"text":"我4月12日就提案那因為主要是我們這個政府從112年重新開放這個營造業外籍勞工的引進我們是非常擔心會嚴重排擠到原住民勞工的就業那這不是只是我的擔心而已其實是我想很多的族人都有面臨到這樣的問題"},{"start":12970.529,"end":12997.923,"text":"那所以我特別在去年4月12號有提案要求要補助事業單位促進原住民族就業計畫那到底要等到什麼時候才可以送到勞動部來排案我特別關心這個問題因為不是只有我關心在我提出之後有好幾位原住民的立委不分黨派都緊盯著我然後跟著我的後面一直在很用力的在"},{"start":12999.383,"end":13021.33,"text":"支持這樣的案子所以要請教你這個時程跟委員報告一下那我們在3月的時候有分別派訪就在那個就業安定基金委員會裡面的兩位委員希望徵求委員更多的一些指導來來去完善我們那個計劃那目前就完成這個事項那也做好一些相關的一個方案"},{"start":13021.89,"end":13043.963,"text":"然後我們最近是也透過國會組也希望先到委員那邊先跟委員再去做一個說明所以你就是還沒有排嘛那我現在問你什麼時候要那個啊要送送到勞動部去排案對那如果是這一期的那個就業案第1期開會可以有到我們會以最近的一起的那個部分會先去做一個那個提案"},{"start":13044.823,"end":13059.728,"text":"目前是因為也大概是在交接期間我們也要先跟那個新的主委要去報告這個事情那長官是非常的關心以上所以那個5月520之前是還不會送嗎是應該是在520之後所以你到底什麼時候才要送"},{"start":13060.568,"end":13083.674,"text":"我怕你等到下一任上任又說要等下一任的交接因為已經是差不多研議完成了都差不多了是不是那你可不可以自己給自己一個期許一個日期520交接之後現在那個要接任的主委也在你們會裡面也是常常可以見面你們都很熟嘛就可以先事先"},{"start":13084.634,"end":13089.179,"text":"先討論啊,看他態度怎麼樣。你要看勞動部他們最近召開的那個時間的部分。"},{"start":13104.697,"end":13122.012,"text":"對,我們盡快送。對,你要送給他們,他們才召開,不是嗎?是。你怎麼會說等他們什麼時候召開,你們才要送?應該是半年召開一次。對,我是說...對,那只要有...我這麼簡單問你一個問題,我就是問日期而已,你就不能..."},{"start":13123.959,"end":13143.185,"text":"講個日期嗎?那是不是委員大概差不多在5月、大概在6月的時候我們是希望可以送出去這樣子。所以你到時候還會在社福處是不是?這個應該是先就就要就就乾脆先在交接前你們可以先就先送了嗎?"},{"start":13144.395,"end":13145.036,"text":"問到現在剩下4分鐘。"},{"start":13164.195,"end":13181.898,"text":"好吧,你先下去吧。這個事情我覺得交接前就可以先送的。難道,一樣當主委講的話都不算嗎?做的決定也都不算嗎?你們感功一下嘛。好,謝謝。麻煩再請那個蔡署長"},{"start":13183.991,"end":13210.72,"text":"還有這個蔡署長條平斯黃司長黃司長好我要講一下這個這個我覺得蠻嚴重的問題你們先看一下這個廣告單廣告的傳單這裡面的內容是不是正確然後攸關這個外籍勞工的權益這個這個部分因為你看這個性別平等工作法那個黃司長有沒有第21支一條"},{"start":13213.455,"end":13231.87,"text":"是20條第一項好只有其實他就是沒有21之一啦我沒有講錯我只是問問題沒有就沒有對你也沒有回答錯好那如果傳單內容指的是就是說你這個傳單內容應該就是指21條嘛"},{"start":13235.313,"end":13246.216,"text":"那前提就是外勞先要有參加就業保險那我就要請教外籍勞工他們可不可以參加就業保險"},{"start":13248.379,"end":13269.902,"text":"外籍勞工不能參加就業保障好 謝謝正確那我想我就直接單刀直入的問了吼那所以裡面所提到的這個各項權益有包括有薪產檢、賠產檢還有產假安胎休養跟這個育嬰留職停薪以及這個家庭照顧的部分是不是都適用於外籍勞工"},{"start":13272.777,"end":13298.374,"text":"在這些架的部分有適用那那個運營留持停薪的話會沒有薪資沒有津貼好那因為這個部分更何況有涉及到這個準爸爸準爸爸的權益以及這個家庭所以外籍勞工雙方我要請教說他們雙方可不可以在我國登記結婚"},{"start":13301.431,"end":13319.684,"text":"登記結婚是可以移民法他們可以結婚可不可以登記結婚跟委員報我們了解目前移民署是可以在國內他們在登記的結婚是可以的可以登記結婚對我了解是可以依法你確定是跟委員報勞動部有沒有不同的意見"},{"start":13328.086,"end":13333.691,"text":"你要先弄清楚法規我明明看到這個就業保險法第5條你說可以登記結婚對因為這個過去確實因為有發生過案例我們有請教過移民所那他目前他們在移民法的規定其實沒有排除所以現在是可以登記結婚可以認定準爸爸"},{"start":13354.179,"end":13377.442,"text":"對,但是他不能依這個理由作為他改變他的居留身份我知道我是打問號啦,到底能不能登記結婚這件事情我覺得我們可能都需要再...我們再進一步再把它明確化你們現在要不要先問一下,我一邊質詢你們先問一下我們了解一下是因為我不太清楚是我沒有跟上這個"},{"start":13378.968,"end":13400.435,"text":"呃"},{"start":13400.874,"end":13426.673,"text":"跟委員報告那個外國人生育諮詢服務中心這個部分目前我們應該這個是應該限服對這個裡面是有提到說可以解約後60天申請暫緩轉換雇主那產後60天內可以申請恢復轉換雇主並且延長60天的工作期限我想請教這是真的嗎"},{"start":13427.993,"end":13452.568,"text":"這是說如果這個懷孕移工他跟僱主因為雙方可能因為工作上沒有辦法這樣調配之下他們解約後這個是可以我們有這樣的一個協助好那這個沒有問題那根據這個勞動基準法第50條第一項的規定在生小孩前後可以請八個星期的產假那我們這裡先不討論這個流產假的部分"},{"start":13453.769,"end":13465.137,"text":"我國的勞工產假是這個56天嘛所以外籍勞工的產假有60天比我國的勞工更多嘛他們60我們56天"},{"start":13471.319,"end":13471.759,"text":"我們今天指出的這兩張傳單"},{"start":13500.014,"end":13526.554,"text":"我是覺得因為好像勞動部都在鼓勵外籍勞工在台灣生育而且福利待遇甚至比本國勞工還要更好那這個傳單裡面都有單位名稱還有這個聯絡的方式但也沒有看到勞動部說有任何的這個澄清或說明說明說我國是非常重視外籍勞工的權益而不是鼓勵他們在台灣非法生育"},{"start":13528.135,"end":13554.71,"text":"那所以如果說這些都是真的那這麼重要的這個權益措施你們應該要發佈新聞稿並在這個官網上面公佈嘛而不是讓人家這樣子宣傳讓讓很多人去誤解那所以你後續署長你後續會不會有正式相關的公佈或澄清說明這個委員謝謝謝謝委員提醒我們因為我們也發現這個有些訊息可能不是一個正確"},{"start":13555.27,"end":13577.662,"text":"對啊,大家就覺得太好了,我們都來這裡非法生小孩。好,如果這個資料是錯誤的,那請問有沒有意圖透過協助保障外籍勞動權益而實際上是來獲得你們的安置費用的補助?你會不會有這樣子的聯想?如果有這樣的,我覺得我們應該要去改正它。對啊,我想我們在這裡做一個"},{"start":13579.136,"end":13580.218,"text":"我們再確認一下,如果他們提供"},{"start":13595.217,"end":13595.477,"text":"對於外籍勞工在臺灣"},{"start":13621.807,"end":13626.271,"text":"這個懷孕生小孩這個黑戶寶寶的問題其實已經頭很大了"},{"start":13628.014,"end":13651.331,"text":"勞動部對於說他們的懷孕問題應該要有一個明確的態度不能睜一隻眼閉一隻眼那因為問題出來你們如果問題出來然後再用個案去處理然後因為我們這樣大家會很有壓力嘛因為我們有一個人權的這個大旗壓著所以問題再丟給衛福部跟縣市政府去收尾嘛"},{"start":13652.712,"end":13678.274,"text":"這裡面還有很多涉及到僱主權益啊那我們也不能說啊就這樣我們就要求僱主然後無預期的就是要接受外籍勞工去懷孕生小孩那我也是很好奇就是說以前我們都沒有這方面的問題反而呢在我國更重視他們的權益給了很多的這個更多更好的保障之後呢問題卻是越來越多我想我們去保障並"},{"start":13679.395,"end":13706.69,"text":"提供這個很多的保障是沒有問題那但是但是方法方法如果造成後續很嚴重的問題那我們就要好好的來檢討嗎總不能什麼都推給僱主跟仲介去配合啊好 署長你怎麼看對 我想非常謝謝委員這個其實一定要橫平僱主的權益跟雙方之間我想這個部分在後續我們在相關的一些處理跟規劃我們都會注意這一點"},{"start":13707.41,"end":13732.948,"text":"我想最後我還是在這邊要就是說謝謝蔡署長也給你表達肯定因為畢竟就是說在這個防疫期間你臨危受命那也就是順利解決這個外籍勞工這個防疫破口的隱憂還有一些錯綜複雜的一些政策所以背後都要有署長站在第一線去處理這些問題也有看到你的身影"},{"start":13734.269,"end":13753.5,"text":"我想要做個提醒就是目前外籍勞工懷孕生子的問題那未來只會越來越多那彰化縣這個外國人生育諮詢服務中心不等同說他是一個生育鼓勵中心這是不一樣的所以我要在這裡要求你們一定要"},{"start":13753.78,"end":13753.8,"text":"好 謝謝"},{"start":13780.455,"end":13793.423,"text":"好 謝謝陳盈委員報告委員會現場林倩琦委員有登記那因為未及發言要求同意於劉建國委員發言結束後發言好那我們現在請劉建國委員發言好 謝謝主席 有請部長請許部長"},{"start":13810.857,"end":13829.893,"text":"劉文豪部長好部長要走了有沒有什麼話要說謝謝啦這個在衛方委員會我在所有的委員的這個指教跟支持下也推動了很多政策跟法案那當然"},{"start":13830.977,"end":13845.897,"text":"還有很多努力的空間 那就留待給下一位我們何部長來繼續努力 謝謝因為剩下時間已經不多了 想讓部長多講一些話你竟然這麼簡短 那我就"},{"start":13846.898,"end":13870.79,"text":"還是要跟部長一起來為這個勞動的權利還有勞工的相關的一些事情要來做一些在最後這僅剩的幾天來做一些努力好不好這個部長看一下這個報導這是在昨天的報導不過這應該是之前的事情之前的那個五戶集團的那個應該是五戶集團那個他們的餐飲結栗啦結栗對"},{"start":13872.932,"end":13889.418,"text":"他是在去年的時候無預警的宣布倒閉嘛那旗下品牌的相關在台的這個門市將近三十間也突然結束營業那許多的這個員工都是臨時收到通知甚至員工上班上到一半被通知不用上班了"},{"start":13890.959,"end":13907.76,"text":"總計大概有500名員工因此失業那根據勞動部有回報本席的辦公室是說相關的員工其實都已經有做妥適的安排與協助餐飲業很缺工所以轉閒轉業沒有問題那個如果他那個之前費其實我們有一些電廠"},{"start":13909.102,"end":13918.211,"text":"我們那個電廠機制也都會保障他們...我知道我知道 這個有回復我清楚了齁但是我現在想說這個是我們回過頭來看啦齁就是說這個集團當時有申請大量解雇嗎?沒有沒有嘛對所以他要處罰對但是負責人已經不見了啦"},{"start":13931.55,"end":13943.724,"text":"因為負責人不見消失了嘛所以你要處罰他也處罰不到嘛好 那我現在回過頭來討論這事情我就要提到叫做預警機制嘛我們大集團裡面是有設這一個預警的機制"},{"start":13946.647,"end":13966.894,"text":"也就是說雇用勞工三十年以上的事業單位有下列情形者之一有相關單位或人員向主管機關通報對不對這其中裡面它包括123基建工資、勞健保、全部或主要營業制部分停工第三決議併購或最近兩年曾發生重大勞資爭議對不對"},{"start":13970.075,"end":13978.957,"text":"這個是我們在大前款裡面第11條有這個設置這樣的一個預警的機制但是它的123款裡面跟剛剛我提的這個這家龍頭的餐飲業的狀態有適用嗎?它都沒有發生這個狀況對嘛所以這個預警機制對這個事件來講是沒有作用的應該是怎麼說嗎?"},{"start":13997.441,"end":14018.071,"text":"我是講第一個樣態因為這家公司他涉入吸金案導致公司受到影響所以他走到這個地步其實坦白講是不難預料是不難預料然後地方的勞工局應該是啟動這個預警機制他要啟動但是依據我們的第11條好像又沒有他這樣的一個樣態要怎麼去啟動然後再來"},{"start":14024.537,"end":14046.147,"text":"整間...剛剛我特別提到負責人是逃獄後整間公司是直接倒閉嘛所以500人是秒失業啦所以才有人上班上到一半被通知說不用上班了那我也覺得很奇怪他是誰去通知他叫他不用上班所以他應該還公司底下還有相關的負責的人嘛應該是... 主管啦 可能是...對嘛 主管是被..."},{"start":14046.687,"end":14065.978,"text":"是接受到誰的命令?應該是接受到負責人的命令或...我是要去提供這樣的一個樣態,等一下我再提供一個樣態給部長跟市長做參考。我調出這個我們大量解雇勞工保護法的一個修法歷程。大量解雇勞工保護法,其實最近一次修法是在104年。"},{"start":14067.614,"end":14081.134,"text":"那個時候是配合主改阿名稱改而已阿然後我會變勞動部嘛再來離那一次之後再往前一次是97年民國97年也就是說從97年到現在已經將近16年"},{"start":14083.958,"end":14106.826,"text":"這個大量解雇勞工保護法並沒有去做任何的修正除了那個主改改名稱而已這個部分要請部長思考跟市長思考一下那同樣在這16年內我們也遇到了這個109年的時候爆發COVID-19的這個疫情當時有申請大量解雇的案件從平均每年200多件"},{"start":14109.107,"end":14129.842,"text":"一口氣飆升到364件將近百分之七十的成長然後通報解雇人數高達一萬四千五百多人依據大解法的第四條規定事業單位大量解雇勞工時應在六十日前提出解雇計畫書只有天災、事變或突發事件"},{"start":14130.902,"end":14156.798,"text":"天災、事變及突發事件才能不受60日的限制但是在109年的疫情唯一規定60日前提出解雇計畫書昭華的案件就有43件110年有32件、111有22件、12有30件、去年還有30件但是我要請教部長這個疫情到底算不算天災?到底算不算事變?到底算不算突發事件?"},{"start":14161.308,"end":14163.649,"text":"市長講不屬於災、天災、事變、土豪事件"},{"start":14185.14,"end":14211.805,"text":"但是部長你對法律也是有你的專業嘛,有你的經驗但是你看這個COVID-19的疫情誰當時料想得到?誰料想得到他會多久?對不對?沒人想得到啦然後當時的船運又出了多大問題整個運輸又出了什麼樣的一個狀況這個難道都不算在突發事件裡面嗎?突發事件裡面嗎?"},{"start":14216.324,"end":14238.717,"text":"這不能想到的。好,那我再用一個例子給部長跟市長做參考。我這邊有個案例,嘉義縣有某這個經營家具外銷公司,主要是因為疫情訂單減少以及臨時得知客戶無法付款署突發事件。照理講他是應該不受60日前的這個通報限制的,但勞動部書院委會"},{"start":14240.318,"end":14245.182,"text":"認為,他是這麼講,說全球疫情已持續一段時間,可事先預知訂單將會減少。這個怎麼叫預知?"},{"start":14253.53,"end":14267.4,"text":"很多在疫情時間﹐很多的產業他是變相的在成長就像晶片 OK相關的營運及人事管理應有所準備並非不可預見緊急事件也因此違反大切法這個第4條規定處時到50萬的罰款"},{"start":14271.582,"end":14294.781,"text":"我想這個個案判斷我這邊要尊重勞動部的社會委員會的決定我不是要探討這件事情的這樣一個實際上採取的內容但是我是強調說當你要去做出這樣的採取過程裡面你所續名這樣的理由我會覺得我會覺得好像可以論述再更完整一點我是覺得這樣有點簡單因為"},{"start":14298.47,"end":14326.641,"text":"你跟我都一樣吶吼,包含應該術業委員會的委員都一樣沒有人有辦法去預估怎麼會有這樣的疫情啊這個疫情到底要延續多久沒有一個人有辦法去把這個事情去預見那我們怎麼相對要求業主相對的在產業界的這些人他有辦法去預見這樣的事情不可能的事啊所以我是要舉這兩個樣態然後又16年沒有修這個大街法"},{"start":14327.722,"end":14337.85,"text":"是不是在部長要臨北邱去的時候留下美麗的身影?這事情是不是可以在你要"},{"start":14339.147,"end":14365.85,"text":"藉由畢業之前可以來思考、發動是不是來處理大量解雇法、勞工保護、大量解雇勞工的保護法看起來已經17年了啦17年我就一個法律這麼多年是需要在全盤再檢視一下啦所以市長在這裡我就當場指示他這個我們全盤來檢視該修就要來修啦我又看到部長美麗的身影了好 謝謝"},{"start":14368.292,"end":14388.387,"text":"來第二題齁403大地震亂這個花蓮成為重災區齁那花蓮縣府已經獲得兩家旅宿業者的申請大量解雇嘛分別申報83人及4人共有116人要失業但是同月4月23日又餘震再增加了一間花蓮的這個富凱飯店傾倒那預計兩週內就必須要拆除這個飯店的建築齁"},{"start":14394.315,"end":14406.982,"text":"我想這個換天他也一定符合大計劃第4條所定的天災事變或突發事件那如果這家換天再提出大量解雇的申請換人就有三家了換人就有三家"},{"start":14408.435,"end":14427.61,"text":"我是要說花蓮這次地震掉了這個十億的觀光的產值那可能還會再增加也不一定那接下來又是暑假的檔期真的是非常不樂觀所以可能會有相關的聯動性的業者也會去啟動這個大量解雇的這樣的一個狀況會陸續出現那我必須要講說"},{"start":14432.674,"end":14449.832,"text":"因為大量解雇而失業的員工,透過勞動部的就業服務的轉介,要在花蓮找到相同性質的工作,不簡單了,對不對,一定難度嘛,而且它是整個,它絕對不是一個單一的旅宿業的倒閉嘛,所以整個花蓮區域性的產業問題,這個真的是"},{"start":14452.234,"end":14471.582,"text":"會受到蠻大的挑戰所以我不曉得勞動部有沒有去預估未來一年內發電線可能會有多少失業人口那勞動部要怎麼做怎樣的因應跟輔導人數上我們可以預期可能一定會增加但是到底多少我們要看狀況但是重點就是說我現在有專人"},{"start":14472.842,"end":14488.176,"text":"正在目前花蓮的整個狀況包括勞工的這些失業、就業這些需要幫忙的我們有專人在處理那隨時也都跟花蓮縣政府這邊保持聯繫我們就是及時的援助就是說"},{"start":14490.478,"end":14517.193,"text":"但是就像剛剛委員講的因為畢竟他現在整個是觀光產業都受影響有時候轉業因為可能不像說在西部這麼方便所以要跨域也會有困難不過現在是我們至少還有一個零工措施或者失業給付還可以撐一些時間不過其他的產業部分我們是現在透過就是說雖然沒有辦法到那邊去旅遊或什麼的那其他產業我們用"},{"start":14518.013,"end":14520.936,"text":"請勞動部長：立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生福利部長、法務部長．針對全面檢視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視。"},{"start":14541.117,"end":14567.177,"text":"這個影響是會持續到一段相當的時間啊看怎麼幫忙就像我們當初疫情先先做最壞的打算做最好的準備啦所以也謝謝委員提醒我們這個都來來全盤的關注對所以剛才部長特別提到嘛預先嘛還是說預估嘛預防嘛包含剛才的我特別提到大節晚裡面的預警嘛這其實預防剩餘一切的證明這個我們大家都很清楚"},{"start":14567.837,"end":14584.551,"text":"那過去我們也有921的這麼嚴重的大跡證比花蓮這個大跡證當然更嚴重到N倍以上當時怎麼去做因應怎麼去預估嘛怎麼去做預宣的一些事情我想這個部分可能要協同交通部、協同經濟部對對對就跨部會啦我們跨部會來"},{"start":14585.881,"end":14612.047,"text":"行政院有召開相關的跨部會會議來協助那當然也希望部長在所謹慎的時間裡面就是特別要求是不是可以快速的兩個禮拜內應該可以做出這個這樣的一個預估預先的預警的一些報告可以為我們做參考嗎?可以嗎?可以好 謝謝好 謝謝主席 謝謝好 謝謝劉建國委員發言接下來請林倩琦委員發言"},{"start":14619.635,"end":14623.177,"text":"謝謝主席。我們這邊請徐部長。請徐部長。部長好。大家辛苦了。那個時間已經這麼晚。本席在對今天的這個主題上就只有在法條上還有一些更深層面的思考這邊想給這個部裡面這邊一個建議。我們在面對長期失業者的一個困境。我這邊針對就業服務法"},{"start":14647.907,"end":14670.321,"text":"有關於長期失業者的服務對象那我這邊提出來就是說是不是不要只求有工作而是能夠求更好也就是能夠適得其所那我這邊建議啦面對長期失業者的不同形態那在雖然中央各主管機關會有審視那現在可以再擴大一個審視的深度跟廣度"},{"start":14671.241,"end":14696.762,"text":"明列有其必要者﹖那我們就可以看到這個法條的24條的第10款這邊有很多個對象可以積極面對然後落實這個就業的媒合那這個24條裡面的規定對象有很多像第一個獨立負擔加計然後第4個這個原住民這個部分還有長期失業、二度就業這邊是這個身分別那本席在這邊建議就是說是不是可以"},{"start":14697.222,"end":14720.543,"text":"對這種特定的對象檢視他的一個分類的基礎因為這些身分別裡面可能會有一些多重的重疊那另外有一些長期失業者他就會變成就業的這個障礙很嚴重所以這邊雖然就那個就業的這個就是分類"},{"start":14721.844,"end":14750.905,"text":"就身份來講那其實有很多失業時間很長的那就會導致他在他的職業融入的這個部分會特別的困難所以我們可不可以參考那個貴部如果有機會參考一下德國就業促進法的規範跟措施那不僅在內容還有這個時間的持續的部分來考慮一下對穩定的這個需求的增加還有事業者的支持那這個特定的對象可以"},{"start":14751.325,"end":14775.535,"text":"就是可以思考一下失業期間來取代他的身分別或看你們怎麼樣去多重思考的一個處理那比如說像失業3個月失業6個月9個月12個月那可能部裡面這邊可以提供可以就這個部分提供不同的深度的就業諮詢然後還有就業促進的一個措施所以最後就是這個"},{"start":14776.415,"end":14778.817,"text":"我先回應您一下您剛提到德國的制度剛好我們今天也要去考察"},{"start":14802.037,"end":14820.528,"text":"我們剛好就主要去取經啦他在知識可以工作好的經驗我們都來學習另外就是那個長期失業者來我們有一個長期失業者那個就業的指引指引我們現在正在就長期失業族群的服務指引那這個我們就是要"},{"start":14822.029,"end":14836.202,"text":"我們現在在邀請專家學者來做一些討論那把這指引研擬出來之後我們提供給救福委員參考來盤點相關的社政衛生資源那結合民間團體村里長基層網路來合作發掘潛在事業者協助他"},{"start":14837.489,"end":14859.436,"text":"就是不是只以身份就是以他的這個失業狀況然後適性的去排除他就業的障礙然後提高他就業的意願這個我們有在做剛好謝謝委員的提醒這個我們有在做那另外德國的部分我請他們去的時候特別這個部分特別去研究人家好的制度我們來做參考"},{"start":14861.297,"end":14870.406,"text":"謝謝部長還有部理已經注意到這樣一個問題。正好希望能夠水到渠成。祝福部長。"},{"start":14874.465,"end":14902.415,"text":"好 謝謝林千祺委員本日會議詢答全部結束委員廖偉祥、楊耀、盧憲一、光曉琳、羅志強所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報現在做以下決定報告及詢答完畢委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從期鎖定本日會議到此結束現在散會"},{"start":14914.462,"end":14920.525,"text":"主席、主席、主席、主席、主席、"}]}},{"id":"151744","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151744","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15d0092d1d9a5f6d03c97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed04af671f0839fd99a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"10:59:47 - 11:07:20","影片長度":"00:07:33","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":453,"end_time":"2024-04-25T11:07:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T10:59:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":667,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（10時59分）主席、各位委員。有請勞動力發展署蔡署長，還有原民會羅處長。"],["主席：請蔡署長、羅處長。"],["蔡署長孟良：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：署長好。因為部長很辛苦，所以讓他休息。今天的報告提到就業服務法是民國81年4月17日公布施行，到現在已經30多年了，第二十四條當初只有6款，其中一款就有原住民，所以當時的立法院、當時的政府都非常重視。不僅僅這樣，「原住民」這3個字是第一次出現在中華民國的法律上，那時候憲法還沒有修，憲法是民國83年才修正，把「山胞」正名為「原住民」，所以在當時憲法還是寫山胞的時候，中華民國的法律多重視原住民立委的意見；順便說一下這個故事。","現在的就業服務法第二十四條一樣有原住民的部分，就業服務法第六條也特別規定，中央主管機關應會同原住民族委員會辦理相關原住民就業服務事項，但現在勞動部一直比較努力的地方是在就業服務法的第六條第六款，這個等一下我會談，你們很努力在這個部分。","羅處長，今天原民會的報告裡寫了很多，當然我們的失業率有減少，但這有很多因素，在報告中有關就業促進部分，你特別提到這麼長的這些內容，但很多其實跟今天的主題是沒有關係的。今天的主題是就業服務法上路30年了，但你寫了這一大堆，問題是很多都是新的法律才有的，譬如原住民族語言發展法，這是我在立法院推動的，然後相關的語推人員或相關的族語專職化，也都是我在立法院推動的。又譬如長期照顧服務法，這也是新的法律，我們特別請衛福部一定要弄個原住民族專章，而相關的文化健康站的推動、經費的挹注，都是我去協調的，你們在這個部分寫了一堆話，大家會以為原住民的就業已經完全沒有需要了，大家會這樣想。原民會要思考的是如何真正協助原住民，你提到我們的薪資差額還超過1萬以上，對不對？這才是你們要去努力、協調的，但今天你的報告裡有太多跟今天的主題沒有關係的部分也都放進去，像工作權保障法，這是楊仁福立法委員在立法院提案，弄了老半天才三讀通過，這個部分跟就業服務法也沒有關係。","現在我們就談勞動部的部分。今年4月25日勞動部在委員會提出一份報告，其中提到「延攬外國專業人才」，上次我在這裡也質詢過；112年3月6日勞動部跨國勞動力政策協商諮詢小組召開第35次會議，會議結論是原則同意營造業引進營造移工採階段性先行開放總額8,000名，並視執行情形可增加開放至1.5萬名。請問署長，現在開放進來多少了？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，這個部分是內政部、國產署，這1.5萬名是以他們設定的條件去做分配，據我們的瞭解，這1.5萬名目前已經陸陸續續在核配，也接近快要核配完。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：大約多少？"],["蔡署長孟良：人數大概1萬……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：沒關係，再回復好了。"],["蔡署長孟良：差不多快1萬2。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：再書面提供給我好了。","羅處長，原民會有沒有參加這個會議？"],["羅處長赫踛：報告，有。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：有，所以這是一個很嚴重需要去檢討的地方。外國人從事就業服務法第四十六條第一項第八款至第十一款工作資格一再的修、一再的修，8年來修了18次，很重要的是一再放寬；放寬沒關係，但不要把原住民進用的唯一條款刪除掉！羅處長，當初開會時你們有沒有反對？還是你們沒有注意看這個條文？保障原住民的進用還是要有，因為缺工讓外國人進來，我們支持，但是不要把保障的條款拿掉，以後要再放進來不容易啊！這個部分需要原民會還有勞動部的重視，希望還是要把它修回來。羅處長，要加油啊！好不好？"],["羅處長赫踛：是，我們再跟勞動部這邊協商。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員的發言。","接下來請林淑芬委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.10534375,"end":16.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.90596875,"end":18.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.69909375,"end":18.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.605968750000002,"end":20.871593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.91784375,"end":23.352218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.96846875,"end":22.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.68971875,"end":23.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.297218750000003,"end":24.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.97221875,"end":24.989093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.25909375,"end":26.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.465343750000002,"end":32.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.98346875,"end":34.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.53596875,"end":36.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.22346875,"end":38.674718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.26534375,"end":41.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.610968750000005,"end":47.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.635343750000004,"end":49.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.96409375,"end":50.909093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.46596875,"end":55.617218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.19096875,"end":57.726593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.82784375000001,"end":58.924718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.447843750000004,"end":60.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.337843750000005,"end":63.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.90284375,"end":64.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.38346875,"end":67.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.32846875,"end":68.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.86409375000001,"end":70.77096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.61471875000001,"end":73.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.68596875,"end":77.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.14534375000001,"end":82.60034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.85346875,"end":84.45659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.16534375,"end":86.98784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.66284375000001,"end":88.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.80596875,"end":92.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.10096875,"end":94.12596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.29471875,"end":96.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.51784375000001,"end":106.14096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.84971875000001,"end":109.78596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.34284375,"end":118.02096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.14346875000001,"end":117.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.11346875000001,"end":121.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.85159375,"end":122.18909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.01159375,"end":125.20971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.77909375,"end":129.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.50034375,"end":128.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.55909375000002,"end":133.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.65971875,"end":138.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.58721875,"end":141.66284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.67534375,"end":143.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.65409375000002,"end":143.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.09284375000001,"end":145.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.54409375,"end":145.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.20221875000001,"end":147.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.87284375000002,"end":149.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.49284375000002,"end":150.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.10034375,"end":151.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.55159375000002,"end":154.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.36534375000002,"end":160.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.93409375000002,"end":164.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.91659375,"end":165.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.67159375,"end":167.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.61221875,"end":169.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.08034375,"end":171.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.12221875,"end":175.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.78409375,"end":177.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.06221875,"end":178.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.15909375,"end":179.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.83409375000002,"end":184.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.40721875,"end":186.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.32659375,"end":190.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.88721875000002,"end":194.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.32534375,"end":199.59471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.93221875,"end":204.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.72471875000002,"end":208.04909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.57221875000002,"end":210.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.96846875,"end":212.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.60096875000002,"end":215.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.77784375000002,"end":218.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.47346875000002,"end":221.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.18159375000002,"end":227.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.58596875,"end":229.68284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.15096875,"end":232.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.90596875000003,"end":235.04909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.41596875000002,"end":237.19221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.69846875000002,"end":240.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.71909375,"end":242.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.96346875,"end":245.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.40596875000003,"end":246.82784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.31721875000002,"end":250.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.96221875,"end":252.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.46409375000002,"end":255.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.00784375,"end":256.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.86409375,"end":264.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.18784375,"end":268.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.11971875,"end":270.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.94221875,"end":277.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.72596875,"end":278.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.19409375000004,"end":281.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.68284375,"end":284.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.38721875000005,"end":286.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.26034375,"end":287.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.62721875,"end":292.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.82909375,"end":294.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.49534375,"end":296.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.52034375,"end":298.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.27534375000005,"end":302.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.76846875,"end":309.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.24409375000005,"end":312.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.38284375,"end":314.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.81721875,"end":322.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.78221875,"end":324.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.72284375000004,"end":328.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.14409375,"end":330.59534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.00034375,"end":333.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.00409375000004,"end":334.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.11784375,"end":351.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.44846875,"end":352.92096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.96721875000003,"end":354.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.08096875,"end":356.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.49846875000003,"end":361.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.92034375000003,"end":359.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.82284375,"end":361.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.35409375,"end":364.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.68284375,"end":367.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.20971875000004,"end":368.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.47971875,"end":368.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.88034375,"end":376.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.98471875,"end":377.67659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.89596875,"end":384.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.61221875,"end":386.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.44721875000005,"end":389.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.38346875,"end":391.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.30721875,"end":393.74159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.05784375,"end":399.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.81659375000004,"end":402.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.09034375000005,"end":404.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.81159375000004,"end":405.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.85346875000005,"end":408.43971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.04284375000003,"end":413.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.59909375,"end":415.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.96596875,"end":420.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.57284375,"end":422.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.98596875000004,"end":425.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.51284375,"end":428.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.48284375000003,"end":431.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.94659375000003,"end":434.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.35534375000003,"end":437.93721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.69659375000003,"end":443.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.70846875,"end":445.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.02034375000005,"end":449.78346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.99471875,"end":448.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.18846875,"end":451.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.26409375000003,"end":452.97284375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.149,"end":22.187,"text":"政天才委員發言。主席、各位委員。有請那個勞動力發展署蔡署長。還有顏明慧、何璐、羅處長。好,委員好。好,署長好。"},{"start":28.49,"end":28.83,"text":"第二十四條．"},{"start":50.311,"end":72.782,"text":"就有當初只有6款其中一款就原住民所以當時非常當時的這個立法院當時的政府非常重視不僅僅是這樣原住民這三個字是中華民國的法律第一次出現在"},{"start":74.741,"end":88.699,"text":"在法例那時候憲法還沒有修民國83年才修三包正名為原住民所以當時憲法還是寫三包的時候中華民國的法例"},{"start":90.084,"end":96.367,"text":"中央主管機關應會同原住民族委員會辦理相關原住民族就業服務事項﹖"},{"start":120.165,"end":140.439,"text":"就業服務法第6條現在勞動部一直比較努力的地方是在就業服務法第6條的第6款等一下我們會談你們很努力的在這個地方那園民會的報告"},{"start":144.149,"end":170.74,"text":"羅處長,你的報告裡面寫了這些當然我們的失業率有減少但是這個很多的因素很多的因素這裡面你的報告裡面就業促進特別講了這些事實上你寫了這些那麼長的那麼長的跟今天的主題其實是很多都沒有關係的"},{"start":172.328,"end":194.456,"text":"今天主題是就業服務法三十年然後相關的這些然後你寫了一堆這個很多都是新的法律才有的譬如說原住民族委員發展法是我在立法院推動然後相關的這個以推人員或是這個相關的這些"},{"start":195.676,"end":221.418,"text":"注意專職業、專職化都是我在立法院推動的像那個長期照顧服務法也是新的法例然後我們特別請衛福部一定要那個原住民族的專章然後相關的這個文化健康站的推動經費的協調都是我去那邊協調的所以這個部分寫一堆這些"},{"start":224.229,"end":245.608,"text":"這樣的話,大家會以為原住民的就業已經完全就沒有需要了。會這樣的,所以這個部分,人民會怎麼樣去協助,真正去協助。你也提到我們的薪資差額還是超過一萬以上啊。"},{"start":246.448,"end":264.182,"text":"對不對?像這個怎麼去努力、去協調,這個才是一個今天你的報告裡面太多的那個跟今天的主題沒有關係的部分,所以都把它訂進去。像工作權保障法,"},{"start":265.296,"end":267.717,"text":"這是今年4月25日勞動部在這裡的一個報告。"},{"start":292.921,"end":295.785,"text":"延攬外國專業人才。112年3月6日,勞動部跨國勞動力政策協商諮詢小組召開第35次會議。"},{"start":314.865,"end":328.415,"text":"會議結論,原則同意營造業引進營造移工採階段性先行開放總額8000名,並視實際情形可增加開放至1.5萬名。請問一下署長,現在開放進來多少?"},{"start":335.52,"end":360.415,"text":"跟委員報告因為這個部分是內政部國產署那1.5萬名是以他的設定的條件去做分配那目前據我們的瞭解他這個1萬5千名大概大概就是已經陸陸續續在合配也接近快要合配多少大約人數大概1萬人數再回覆對1萬2差不多快要接近快要接近"},{"start":363.701,"end":388.849,"text":"委員會有參加這個會議嗎?有。所以這是一個很嚴重的需要去檢討的地方。這個外國人從事就業服務法第46條第一項第8款是第11款工作資格一再的修一再的修修了18次這8年來"},{"start":392.412,"end":412.974,"text":"先入18次很重要的一再放寬我們都放寬沒有關係但是不要把原住民禁用的唯一的條款就刪除掉了你們沒有反對啊?羅處長當初開會還是你們就沒有注意看這個條"},{"start":414.693,"end":428.064,"text":"就這樣保障原住民金融還是要還是要有為什麼外國人進來缺工我們支持但是不要把保障的條款以後再放進來不容易啊"},{"start":429.557,"end":450.269,"text":"所以這個部分都是需要這個人民會還有勞動部要去重視的地方。所以這個部分我是希望還是把它修回來。那個羅處長,加油。是,我們再跟勞動部這邊再做協商。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151743","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151743","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce1522735bd175bd019420df1bb4ac2af973c68e374cd8c4bed0a4d6960b8134d5c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:55:20 - 11:08:14","影片長度":"00:12:54","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":774,"end_time":"2024-04-25T11:08:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T10:55:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":530,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（10時55分）有請王次長跟胡董事長。"],["主席：有請次長跟董事長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：次長好。兒童權利公約第十七條提到，我們必須鼓勵大眾媒體製播無論在社會或文化對於兒童有益的資訊，這些資訊當然包括所屬文化跟語言的認同，當然還有異文化的認同，我想當然也要顧及少數族群跟原住民兒童在語言方面的需要，所以基本上根據公約的精神，公視願意來做兒少節目，本席當然是百分百認同，不過有幾個點還是要跟次長、董事長再做一些確認。首先，文化部在報告中有提到公視的捐贈經費解除9億元限制，中間有6億會用在兒少節目上，可是我們翻開預算書來看，這個數字好像沒有那麼精確，預算書寫著這6億是來自黑潮計畫的挹注，一部分是辦理臺灣兒少原生內容跟節目製播，可是一部分要用在提升臺灣原創動畫內容製播的量能，還有一部分是要用在開發跟孵育臺灣原生內容跟劇本。好，顯然兒少節目在製播的規模就不會達到6億，這6億當然也不是全部用在兒少的服務上，所以可不可以請次長說明一下，兒少節目究竟占了多少預算，我們要用這樣的預算做哪些工作？"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員的垂詢，因為整個兒少影視音的製作是一個整體環境，以臺灣現在的兒少影視音環境來說，是先天就不足，目前也算後天失調，因為6億也實在算不上是一個非常充足的經費，所以在整個兒少的過程裡面，包括開發、孵育、產製都在這整個計畫裡面，所以我們可以看到即使它提到臺灣原創動畫，因為動畫本來就是兒少影視音裡面最主流、最核心的一個節目，所以它的原創動畫指的是結合臺灣的IP來進行製作，所以兒少現在第一階段如果能有原生的比例，指的是臺灣自己的IP原始的產製，這是最好，但是即使沒有，我們也有退而求其次，就是跟其他的IP合作，或者是更退而求其次，把其他的IP做臺灣的臺語的、語言的配音，大概有幾個不同的策略來整體性的強化，提升兒少在影視音市場上整個的量能啦！因為現在最大的問題是，其實你看不到臺灣自己自製的兒少節目才是核心的問題，因為大概九成以上都是所謂外來的或者是外購的節目，所以在策略上會有這樣的一個差異。雖然委員看到的是，在整體的經費配置上似乎沒有全部用在兒少頻道，但是它指的是在整個環境裡面，還是要把整個環境的調整變成是有辦法去做產製，未來才有可能可以比較長期的經營，所以我想在整體來說，還是在比較大的定義下來說，原則上是回饋在兒少頻道上，因為這些人事、這些頻道本身的宣傳，其實也都是未來經營兒少頻道重要的一個作法，所以可能在預算的配置上，如果委員希望更瞭解在預算配置上有哪些配置的對象、是不是有非兒少頻道的，我想公視可以再提供他們的預算規劃給委員參考。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝。接下來想請教董事長，未來我們要轉型兒少頻道，我們知道是在公視3台，可是公視3台有一個根本的問題，就是民眾找不到它在哪裡，公視3台的區塊在挑戰民眾使用遙控器的習慣，因為它幾乎被排在一、兩百號的位置，根據各地系統台的不同，像現在在中正區這裡，它的遙控器要輸入幾號，你知道嗎？公視3台在139台，而各地又不同。所以我想這是一個很嚴肅的問題，我們既然要推廣，我們就要養成民眾收視的習慣，你要讓他習慣，知道按幾臺，不然，在一百多臺，我想沒有人會按到那裡去，所以有沒有辦法努力讓這個頻道固定起來，而且把位置擺前面一點，就與公視家族擺在一起，你覺得呢？"],["胡董事長元輝：謝謝委員的關注，我們也覺得這個是目前很大的問題，因為我們有一百多臺，而且沒有定頻，我們現在有跟系統業者，也跟NCC請教及協調，不過好像到目前為止他們仍然認為在法律上的規定，只有一定要上傳這個頻道的義務，但是並沒有一定要放在哪個頻道位置或者定頻，這個還需要我們更多的努力，我們也覺得這個是很重要的一個課題。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，這個部分再努力一下。","那剛剛吳沛憶委員也有提到，就是經費的問題，你看日本NHK有一千九百多億，BBC有一千八百多億，韓國的KBS有329億，當然看我們自己，我們覺得我們的真的是少之又少，可是我們在羨慕別人公共媒體成就的時候，我們要反思自己投資了多少，雖然放寬了，從9億到23億，可是相較還是很拮据，其中一個最大的障礙，就公廣集團最大的障礙，我覺得華視的定位還是一個很麻煩的地方。","針對華視的民股買回或者是資產活化或者是附負擔捐贈這個問題，其實我一路從文化部前部長李永得問到現任的部長史哲，去年4月我們公共電視法也睽違了13年首度來修正討論，我除了有自己的提案版本以外，在修法的過程中，我也有提修正動議，試著要將附負擔捐贈的機制納入公共電視法當中，當時史哲部長是說希望是兩階段來修法，優先處理沒有爭議的公視9億這個捐贈上限的問題，再來討論華視的困境怎麼解決。如今公視法三讀也快一年了，我想要請教次長，這個修法的過程中，你們說要日後再來探討華視的困境，現在有什麼樣的進度嗎？再請董事長說明，做為一個經營者，華視這種不公不民的狀態，持續不能落實附負擔捐贈這個過程，還有資產活化，對於華視營運當然非常有影響，怎麼突破這樣的困境，你怎麼看？先請次長回答。"],["王次長時思：先跟委員說明，第一個就是現在華視其實仍然要定位成一個商業電視臺，但是公視的持股有超過八成，所以在所謂的公共性上和民間商業經營的利益上，它還是要取得衡平。","之所以沒有再進行所謂民股買回這件事的關鍵，仍然是因為在現有的法制上沒有辦法強制民股賣出，如果沒有這個法規的情況下，就會陷入很難進行議價及以政府預算來執行的困境，所以我們現在比較重要的事情是，如何讓華視在現有……如果公視已經有了八成以上的股份，它其實是有相對的主導權，所以現在可以看到我們在很多的節目上，不管是補助或者是委製，在資源上面也給華視很大的助益，希望能夠改善它現在製作內容的狀況來提升它的整體收視和營運狀態，這是現在在文化部裡面可以先行採取的一些措施。"],["林委員宜瑾：因為華視企業工會上週三有來拜訪，他們當然對於華視既然要配合公共化而要犧牲一些營收提出一些意見，像今年年初選舉，去年一整年他們是沒有辦法收所謂候選人的廣告，他們又被要求要自負盈虧，所以長期以來其實損失是相當的重大。華視企業工會的具體意見我有列在這個PPT上，請教次長及董事長，究竟能做到多少？怎麼樣解決？這個部分怎麼處理？"],["王次長時思：我想第一個是去年華視在新聞臺上的廣告收益其實增加了非常的多，幾乎是翻倍的增加，但是在整體的預算上面，我們大概就是像剛剛提到的，透過委製和補助的方法來提升它的內容；至於在接下來它是不是能夠有更開放的營運方式，因為它現在也有資產活化委員會在進行資產活化的規劃，所以我想資產活化的方向未來可能可以提升它在營運上的助益，可能還是可以透過公視這個整體的規劃來進行；對於未來的收益來說，我想既然公視的股份是占八成以上，它還是具有一定的公共性，這一點可能華視還是要得到一定的認知。"],["林委員宜瑾：瞭解，不過對於它這樣子不公不民的狀態，當然定位還是有點困難度，我覺得這個還是要好好地來研究，包括附負擔捐贈的部分，到底要不要挹注，我覺得我們再來討論……"],["王次長時思：我們會持續研議，因為它比較是歷史累積下來的長期問題，的確很難很快速地被解決，但我們一直也沒有放棄去研議這個問題的可能性。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。","最後請教次長，知不知道「聽海湧」這部作品，這是公視2024的最新劇集，預計在今年第三季要播出；這個劇集其實有受邀在法國的里爾劇集影展舉行全球的首映，這是臺灣第一次將二戰期間臺籍戰俘監視員的血淚史推上國際舞臺；「聽海湧」這部戲同時也是全亞洲唯一入圍國際全景競賽單元的作品；它這樣的優異表現讓歐洲的國家對於臺灣文化的量能感到相當的驚豔，無論是法國或德國的公視，都紛紛表示可以跟臺灣來展開合作。","那麼一部大放異彩的作品在籌資階段卻沒有受到投資者的青睞，也沒有入選金馬創投，只有公視一路支持。正如我質詢開頭提到的，目前從黑潮計畫挹注到公視的經費只讓公視辦理臺灣兒少原生內容及節目製播，還有孵育戲劇的IP，可是我們沒有考量到公視的戲劇製作經費，這等於是有點限縮公視本來該發揮的影響力。當然某些題材或許沒有那麼具商業性，某些創作或許要走在市場的前端，可是這些不以賺大錢為核心價值考量的內容本來就是臺灣需要的。如果這些內容公視不做，我們期待由誰來做？所以請問次長，你是不是認同文化部應該鼓勵並編列更多的預算，讓公共電視有充分的量能來開發這些優質的本土原創影視作品？"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員這麼熟悉公視產出的好節目，也跟委員報告，「聽海湧」其實2021年是有獲得金馬創投支持的，所以其實金馬創投有支持這部片子，另外委員提到的，是不是未來要投入更多預算？我想這一點是非常支持，只要大院可以支持預算通過，我們也認為投入在臺灣這一類公共性節目的製作和產出上，的確需要更多的資源來支持。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，謝謝次長。"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝主席。"],["主席：休息5分鐘。","休息（11時8分）","繼續開會（11時13分）"],["主席（林委員宜瑾）：我們繼續開會。接下來請吳春城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","葉元之","陳培瑜","何欣純","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","范雲","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","林月琴","陳冠廷","羅智強"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫─ 公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.12784375,"end":2.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.886593750000001,"end":7.523468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.72159375,"end":105.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.02721875,"end":162.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.34721875,"end":228.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.03471875000002,"end":165.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.97846875000002,"end":174.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.08721875,"end":180.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.76034375,"end":193.28346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.95409375,"end":195.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.38534375,"end":216.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.17346875,"end":222.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.97409375,"end":256.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.64471875000004,"end":259.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.09159375,"end":285.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.45034375,"end":294.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.97221875,"end":302.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.19096875,"end":299.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.71346875,"end":305.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.63721875000005,"end":316.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.52159375,"end":316.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.53846875,"end":316.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.62284375,"end":316.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.94346875,"end":442.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.03784375000004,"end":452.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.38221875000005,"end":505.40346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.33971875000003,"end":454.81221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.11221875,"end":506.21346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.21346875000006,"end":506.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":506.26409375000003,"end":528.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":528.87659375,"end":549.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":550.00409375,"end":560.1797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.3147187500001,"end":587.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.13534375,"end":574.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":574.15221875,"end":574.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.93909375,"end":597.6928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.6928437500001,"end":613.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":613.7578437500001,"end":615.1415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.80846875,"end":625.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":625.9753437500001,"end":742.0247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.8059687500001,"end":630.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":742.0247187500001,"end":743.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":743.4253437500001,"end":769.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":770.2397187500001,"end":771.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":773.41221875,"end":774.17159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":2.731,"text":"有請次長跟董事長委員好次長好兒童權利公約第17條提到就是說我們必須鼓勵大眾媒體直播無論在社會或文化對兒童有益的資訊那這些資訊當然包括所屬文化跟語言的認同當然還有異文化的認同"},{"start":29.466,"end":53.478,"text":"那我想當然也要顧及少數族群跟原住民兒童在語言方面的需要所以基本上根據公約的精神公視願意來做兒少節目這本席當然是百分百認同不過有幾個點還是要跟次長跟董事長再做一些確認首先文化部在報告中有提到公視的捐贈經費從9億元增加到23億"},{"start":56.9,"end":73.175,"text":"中間有6億會用在兒少節目上可是我們翻看預算書來看這個數字好像沒有那麼精確預算書寫著這6億是來自黑潮計畫的挹注那一部分是辦理台灣兒少原生"},{"start":74.156,"end":75.257,"text":"主持人 林宜瑾"},{"start":94.611,"end":123.484,"text":"那這6億當然也不是全部用在兒少的服務上所以可不可以請次長說明一下那兒少的節目究竟占了多少預算那我們要用這樣的預算做哪些工作謝謝委員的垂詢那因為整個兒少影視音的製作它是一個整體環境那台灣以現在的兒少影視音環境來說是先天就不足那目前也算後天失調因為6億也實在是算上是一個非常充足的經費那所以在整個兒少的"},{"start":124.224,"end":124.404,"text":"﹚林宜瑾議員"},{"start":145.384,"end":163.285,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":163.425,"end":190.453,"text":"整體性的強化提升整個兒少在影星市場上的整個的量能因為如果現在最大的問題是其實你看不到台灣自己自製的兒少節目才是核心的問題因為大概九成以上都是所謂外來的或者是外購的這個節目所以它在策略上會有這樣的一個差異所以雖然委員看到的是說在整體的經費配置上似乎沒有全部用在兒少頻道但是他指的是在整個環境裡面你還是要把整個環境的調整"},{"start":192.654,"end":213.046,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":213.046,"end":228.063,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":228.303,"end":256.42,"text":"接下來想請教董事長就是說未來我們轉型這個兒少頻道我們站在公視3台可是公視3台有一個根本的問題就是民眾找不到它在哪裡公視3台它這個區塊在挑戰民眾使用遙控器的習慣因為它幾乎被排在一兩百號的位置根據各地的這個系統台的不同你就是像現在在這裡在中正區它的這個遙控器要輸幾號你知道嗎"},{"start":257.694,"end":285.389,"text":"公視三台139那各地又不同所以我想這個是一個很嚴肅的問題啦齁那我們既然要推廣那我們就要養成民眾收視的習慣你要讓他習慣知道按幾台阿第八幾台 我想那是沒人會起到那去所以是不是有沒有辦法努力讓這個頻道固定起來而且可以啦 位置擺前面一點就跟公視家族擺在一起 你覺得咧?"},{"start":287.217,"end":302.338,"text":"謝謝委員的關注,我們也覺得這個是很大的問題,因為我們有100多,而且沒有定評,那我們現在有跟系統業者,也跟NCC來請教跟協調,不過好像到目前為止,他們認為在法律上的規定"},{"start":303.715,"end":304.515,"text":"這部分再努力一下"},{"start":320.063,"end":340.72,"text":"吳佩宇委員也提到我們在說經費的問題你看日本NHK 1900多億BBC也1800多億韓國的KBS也329億當然看我們自己我們覺得說我們真的是少之又少我們在羨慕別人的公共"},{"start":341.36,"end":341.62,"text":"林宜瑾議員"},{"start":361.323,"end":387.872,"text":"好 那根據這個針對這個華視這個民股買回或者是資產活化或者是負負擔捐贈這個問題其實我從一路從文化部前部長李永德問到現任的部長史哲那去年4月我們公共電視法也睽違了13年首度來這個修正討論那除了我有自己的提案版本以外在修法過程中我有提那個"},{"start":388.792,"end":404.587,"text":"施政動議,試著要將負負擔捐贈的機制納入公共電視法當中。當時矢澤部長是說,我們希望是兩階段來修法,優先處理沒有爭議的公視9億捐贈上限的問題。再來我們再討論華視的困境怎麼解決。公視法三讀也"},{"start":411.773,"end":440.215,"text":"快一年囉那我想要請教次長這個修法的過程中說要日後再來探討華氏的困境那現在有什麼樣的進度嗎那再請董事長說明作為一個經營者對於華氏這種不公不明的狀態那持續也不能落實這個負擔捐贈的這個過程還有資產活化那對於華氏營運當然非常有影響那怎麼突破這樣的困境你怎麼看"},{"start":440.775,"end":456.051,"text":"先請次長回答先跟委員說明就是第一就是說現在華視的定位它其實仍然要定位成一個商業電視台雖然公視的持股有超過八成那所以也就是說在所謂的公共性上跟這個民間"},{"start":457.492,"end":484.219,"text":"銀行的利益上還是要取得一個橫頻那之所以沒有在進行這所謂民股買回的這件事的關鍵仍然是因為在現有的法制上你沒有辦法強制民股賣出那如果沒有這個法規的情況下你就會陷入一個很難進行溢價跟以政府預算來執行的一個困境那所以我們現在比較重要的事情是那如何讓華視在現有因為如果公視已經有了八成以上的股份它其實是有相對的主導權"},{"start":485.299,"end":498.023,"text":"所以現在可以看到我們在很多的節目上不管是補助或者委視華視所以在資源上面其實也給他很大的注意希望使得改善他現在製作的內容的這個狀況來提升他的整體的收視跟營運的狀態那這是現在在文化部裡面所可以先行採取的一些措施"},{"start":508.099,"end":526.851,"text":"華視的企業公會上週三有來拜訪他們當然對於華視既然要配合公共化要犧牲一些營收像今年年初的選舉去年一整年他們是沒有辦法收這個所謂的候選人的廣告"},{"start":528.976,"end":548.344,"text":"他們又要要求自負盈虧所以長期來其實損失是相當的重大那所以我想說這個部分我有列在這個華氏企業公會的具體的意見我有列在這個PPT上那不曉得請教次長跟董事長究竟能做到多少那怎麼樣解決這部分怎麼處理"},{"start":550.306,"end":565.44,"text":"第一是華氏在去年來說在新聞台上的廣告收益其實增加了非常多幾乎是翻倍的增加但是在整體的預算上面我們大概就是像剛剛提到的透過維持跟補助的方法來提升它的內容"},{"start":566.621,"end":582.594,"text":"那至於說在接下來他是不是能夠有更開放的營運方式因為他現在有資產文化委員會在進行資產文化的規劃所以我想資產文化的方向跟未來可能可以提升他在營運上的注意可能還是可以透過這個公視的這個整體的規劃來進行"},{"start":588.158,"end":612.606,"text":"對於未來的收益來說,我想既然公視的股份是佔8成以上,它還是具有一定的公共性,這一點可能還是華視要有得到一定的認知。了解,不過對於它這樣子,就是說不公不明的感覺,這個當然定位起來是有點困難度,我還覺得這個還是要好好的來研究,那包括負擔捐贈的部分,到底要不要挹注,我覺得這個"},{"start":613.846,"end":614.307,"text":"最後請教次長,知不知道這個提海燕這部作品"},{"start":631.622,"end":650.995,"text":"公視2024最新的劇集預計在今年第三季要播出這個劇集其實它受邀在法國的里爾劇集影展舉行全球的首映這是台灣第一次將二戰期間的台籍戰俘兼室員這個血淚史推上國際舞台聽到這部劇集"},{"start":653.677,"end":673.134,"text":"主席,同時也是純亞洲唯一入圍國際全景競賽單元的作品。他這樣的優異表現,讓歐洲國家對於台灣文化的量能感到相當驚豔。無論是法國或德國的公視,都紛紛表示可以跟台灣展開合作。"},{"start":675.416,"end":694.937,"text":"那麼一部大放異彩的這個作品那在籌資的階段卻沒有受到投資者的青睞也沒有入選這個金馬的創投只有公視一路支持喔那好就正如我一開始質詢開頭提到的目前從黑潮計畫一直到公視的經費"},{"start":696.118,"end":719.694,"text":"我們只讓公視辦理台灣兒少這個原生內容跟節目的製播還有呼籲戲劇的IP可是我們沒有考量到公視戲劇的製作經費這等於是有點限縮公視本來該發揮的影響力那當然某些題材沒有或許沒有那麼具商業性那某些創作我們或許要走在市場的前端可是這些不以"},{"start":720.254,"end":724.057,"text":"請問次長,你是不是認同文化部應該鼓勵並憋戀更多的預算,讓公共電視有充分的量人來開發這些優質本土的原創影視作品?"},{"start":743.79,"end":769.684,"text":"謝謝委員這麼熟悉公視產出的好的節目那條哈院也跟委員報告其實在青馬創投它2021年是有獲得支持的所以其實青馬創投我們是有支持這部片子那另外委員提到的就是是不是未來要投入更多預算我想這一點是非常支持只要大院可以支持預算的通過我想我們也認為整個投入在台灣這一類公共性的節目的製作跟產出上的確需要更多的資源來做支持好 謝謝次長"},{"start":773.445,"end":773.933,"text":"阿謝主席"}]}},{"id":"151742","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151742","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce157ca0a34ecb0e9ff3e44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed04c2ba58a9ccea5e05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:44:04 - 10:57:59","影片長度":"00:13:55","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-17"},"duration":835,"end_time":"2024-04-25T10:57:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T10:44:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":472,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時44分）謝謝主席，有請秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：吳委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：終於今天我們可以針對民主進步黨國會改革幾個沒有政治爭議，相對是非常正面，打造權責相符的進步國會，這樣的條文法案可以進入詢答的程序往前推進了一步。我也非常期待下午我們要進入逐條，我懇切地在這裡再一次呼籲國會改革不要再拖延、國會改革不要再害怕，下午逐條也希望能夠如同今天上午的會議一樣順順利利。","據說傅崐萁總召好像人還沒有來到立院，今天也許因為傅總召還沒有指揮、還沒有在場，所以早上我們可以進行議事，再一次拜託，下午如果傅總召來到現場，我希望他帶來的是讓我們可以逐條審查、就事論事、就法案論法案的這樣一個好的議事態度。","進入我的主題之前，我當然也要回應一下前面幾位委員的一些意見，羅智強委員在這裡，謝謝你收了我送你的書，你也回送我一本書，這是一個很好的心靈交流，我也謝謝吳宗憲委員送我的書，我今天有帶來委員會看，一起來看文藝復興，我們都需要更多的文化感。羅智強委員再一次拿出民主進步黨2016的版本，羅委員每一次都以為撿到槍，其實是見樹不見林，我再一次要說明修法就是與時俱進，您是立法院的新科立委，但您一定也知道屆期不連續是什麼。秘書長，屆期不連續就是立法院運行這麼多年，每一個屆期因應新的民意、新的代表性，以及新的進步思維，所以法案都要重新再來。屆期不連續就是讓立法委員基於新的民意、基於更進步的新思維，然後將過去曾經提出的法案可以重行檢視，所以民進黨在2016年國會改革的版本，當下民主進步黨是國會多數，如果要通過也可以通過，但因為當時國會調查權的這個章節，社會沒有匯聚共識，甚至也有違憲之虞，所以在憲法之前，人人都得低頭，在民意之前，國會議員更當低頭。因此民主進步黨沒有利用國會多數的時候強推法案，新的屆期、新的民意，民主進步黨今年推出來的國會改革方案，就如同我們現在的版本，歡迎大家就事論事來檢視。","另外我也要回應黃國昌總召，其實黃總召在自己開直播的時候，他已經講了他的立場，國會改革基本上民眾黨就是支持國民黨，這也難怪我們在委員會這麼多次討論國會改革的版本，從來沒有看過黃國昌委員針對國民黨所提的議案，提出任何意見跟討論，反而非常選擇性、非常針對性地對民主進步黨的版本來做很多抹黑跟攻擊。如同剛剛講的#MeToo的法案，他支持、他不反對，但是又利用立法技術的理由搬出一堆是不是要做，立法委員不當關說也要入法，剛剛秘書長說明得很好，立法委員關說司法在其他的法律是不是也已經規範了？"],["周秘書長萬來：行為法第十七條就規範了。"],["吳委員思瑤：是嘛！已經有了嘛！所以說#MeToo的法案目前沒有，對不對？在立法委員的相關法案裡頭目前沒有，所以在沒有涉及性騷、涉及性別平等、反歧視的事項，這一次就應當來修法、入法，所以黃國昌委員總是選擇性地針對民進黨的版本，提出不實的攻擊。","我再次強調，如果有好的建議，歡迎黃國昌委員在我們逐條審查的時候來跟民進黨的版本提出更好的意見，我們一起來修法、入法，我絕對樂見，但如果只是針對性、選擇性地為攻擊而攻擊，而且是政治立場凌駕了法律的專業。黃國昌委員說的國會改革，基本上民眾黨就是支持國民黨，這一個宣示正足以證明他在國會改革的議案上，政治立場已經凌駕了法律的專業。我再一次說，這是非常遺憾的事。","進入我ppt的第6頁，因為時間有限。秘書長，國會的功能有哪些？您對進步國會的想像有什麼？這個題目很大，是大哉問，我可以請教您，您應當去過很多國家的國會參訪，有沒有哪個進步國會的建築設計讓您印象深刻的嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：你要看大或小……"],["吳委員思瑤：沒關係，您個人分享。"],["周秘書長萬來：我個人大概走了三十幾個國家。"],["吳委員思瑤：哇！好棒。"],["周秘書長萬來：從幾個來看，澳洲坎培拉的那個是最大的，但是匈牙利的是比較豪華，我個人是認為德國的……"],["吳委員思瑤：德國柏林的新國會。"],["周秘書長萬來：它滿好的。因為美國是比較早去，它外面的空間大。其實我要回過頭來講，從82年的華山到這個空軍總部，跟現在……"],["吳委員思瑤：都一直在繼續思考。"],["周秘書長萬來：我推動的大概都有參與，我個人是認為……"],["吳委員思瑤：好，我稍後會就這個部分跟您討論，我先打住在這裡。"],["周秘書長萬來：抱歉，我可以講一句話嗎？"],["吳委員思瑤：好，可以。"],["周秘書長萬來：一般來講，因為現有的研究室，當時也是非常心酸才能夠有這麼幾間研究室，包括……"],["吳委員思瑤：勉強擠出來的空間。"],["周秘書長萬來：對，所以擴建本身我個人不反對。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，當然。"],["周秘書長萬來：而且我個人……如果是以硬體的設備來講，當然在國會的運作上是有必要的。"],["吳委員思瑤：是可以提升我們的問政監督品質，謝謝秘書長。所以我說民主進步黨提出了一個有關國會，不管是遷建、擴建，我們有一個具體的條文，就是希望可以幫立法院一把。進步國會超越了物質性的建築想像，其實承載了更多精神性的意涵。對內，一個國會，它是國政監督的基地，它也可能是社會陳抗的空間，人民團體在國會的廣場抗議、陳抗就可以讓立法者聽見陳抗者的心聲，這也是國會的功能。國會更應當是公民教育的殿堂，我們跟很多的NGO合作，甚至可以規劃進駐NGO的幾個團體，把空間coworking space for這些公民團體；對外，一個國會它更會是國會外交重點的場域，也可能成為民主觀光的景點，這是吳思瑤對於一個進步國會的綜合想像。","我是一個建築迷大家都知道，這幾個列出來的國會，譬如說柯比意為印度國會設計香地葛的國會，譬如說，這個Oscar Niemeyer在巴西所設計的巴西國會，又包括美國知名的建築師Louis Kahn，他在孟加拉打卡的國會，這都是所有觀光客、建築迷、專業領域者會去朝聖的國會景點。","您剛剛講德國柏林的新國會，我個人當然非常的激賞、肯定，它有三個時代性的意義，當柏林圍牆在1989年打開了以後，德國人認為要給民主的進程一個新的重要建築的象徵，所以請了英國普立茲克獎的建築師Norman Foster 1992年動手，1994年完工，他有一個政治民主意涵的歷史意義。","第二個，他設計了一個玻璃的穹頂，人民可以走到最高位的制高點，往下透過玻璃看著國會議員在那裡問政，這象徵的意義就是打開國會，國會是透明的，讓陽光照進來，人民可以在最高位，由上往下看，這些國會議員彰顯的就是人民是最高位，這是第二個透明的國會新時代意義。第三個，這個建築所實踐的就是最新的環保綠建築功能，它不只是選擇再生材料，它的整個發電系統都是再生能源，所以德國這個將民主、透明、公開、實踐集大成的國會建築能成為現在每到德國柏林都要去學習、參觀、經驗（experience）的一個重要民主建築。反觀臺灣，有在野黨表示國會擴建只是想花錢，錯！國會如果擴建、遷建，顯然受惠的也不再是我們這些坐在這裡的國會議員，我們要打造的是一個為了新世代的新國會，那時候的新民意，他們需要一個更好的民主象徵的歷史性建築。","立法院能不升級嗎？當初為了反攻大陸，勉強屈就於第二高女，因陋就簡，把教室當作議場、辦公室，它當然不合用。立法院能不升級嗎？立法院就是一個拼裝車，我們在場這麼多媒體朋友，他們的國會連線是擠在黨團辦公室前面的那個走廊耶！立法院有很多的違建，就因為因陋就簡，立法院的職員們在昏暗、擁擠的辦公空間裡面工作，怎麼能夠提升整個辦公環境跟問政績效呢？狹小的空間早已不敷需求，而且秘書長你也很清楚，立法院是有違建的。","立法院把教室當會議室，我秀出來的就是，吳宗憲委員說他藏了8支麥克風在口袋，我才知道原來司法及法制委員會有8支麥克風。我們常常在審查預算的時候，我過去在教育及文化委員會很痛苦，每一個委員要發言，那個麥克風要傳來傳去、遞來遞去，就是一個非常落伍的開會空間，更不要說我們後面牆上都會有一個顯示我們的含氧量、二氧化碳濃度超標的設置，為什麼要？因為它的通風不夠，常常一個狹小的辦公室擠進多少位的行政官員、幕僚人員、國會助理、立法委員，所以才會有開會空間只要二氧化碳濃度超標異常，喔！超標了，大家趕快出去休息一下，這是臺灣的國會。","所以我們在面對歷史，國會的擴建、遷建不是為了這些立法委員想要花錢、想要自肥，臺灣是世界華人民主的基地，臺灣是民主同盟國家，大家都誇獎、都說讚的一個好的民主表現國家，臺灣值得一個進步的國會，就如同您一樣。","游錫堃院長已經啟動了2021年的專家委員會，也擇定了6處的遷建場址，如果遷建不成，原地擴建也是選項，游錫堃創下了這樣的歷史使命，我相信韓國瑜院長也應當讓國會重建、遷建的歷史性使命要跟上來，好嗎？我們後續再討論，也希望主席可以讓我請求，針對這個主題，其實是可以安排公聽會，我們讓專業者好好來討論，臺灣值得一個好的國會，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員的提議，謝謝秘書長。如果真的立法院能夠遷到一個臺灣比較交通的中心，我們南部、國境之南的委員就不用花那麼多的交通時間，謝謝吳委員的提議。","現在我們依先前的宣告，休息5分鐘。","休息（10時58分）","繼續開會（11時4分）"],["主席：休息時間好像有點不太夠，周秘書長，今天整棟紅樓只有我們委員會在開會，廁所都還不夠，所以真的蠻迫切需要的。","現在繼續開會。","現在有請柯委員建銘詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-17","speakers":["鍾佳濱","范雲","羅智強","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林思銘","吳思瑤","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員高金素梅等\n23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條\n之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案；三、繼續審查\n( 一) 民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」\n案、( 二) 委員賴瑞隆等16 人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草\n案」案；四、(一)繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審\n查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」\n案、( 四 ) 繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kaaw 等19 人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(五)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)審查\n委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133401_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.5834687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.11909375,"end":3.5072187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.98284375,"end":12.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.42096875,"end":16.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.292843750000003,"end":25.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.79909375,"end":25.883468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.997218750000002,"end":51.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.039718750000006,"end":53.727218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.11534375,"end":56.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.815343750000004,"end":59.768468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.93721875000001,"end":73.50471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.14596875000001,"end":75.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.37784375000001,"end":77.68971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.24659375,"end":92.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.38784375,"end":98.83409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.23909375000001,"end":113.36346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.98784375000001,"end":118.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.99971875000001,"end":127.85909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.06159375000001,"end":180.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.35284375,"end":182.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.66471875000002,"end":184.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.25096875,"end":187.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.79909375000003,"end":188.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.65534375000001,"end":193.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.21159375000002,"end":205.19721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.85534375,"end":208.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.07846875,"end":213.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.83721875,"end":215.64284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.13221875000002,"end":221.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.24096875,"end":223.25346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.54034375,"end":234.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.18846875000003,"end":240.14534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.21284375000002,"end":243.09846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.77346875,"end":273.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.81096875000003,"end":276.56159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.25346875,"end":317.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.29346875000005,"end":342.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.26846875,"end":343.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.28096875,"end":345.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.03596875,"end":364.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.96971875,"end":368.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.79221875,"end":368.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.73284375000003,"end":386.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.44534375,"end":373.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.61659375000005,"end":384.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.56971875000005,"end":386.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.60346875000005,"end":386.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.63721875000005,"end":389.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.67096875000004,"end":386.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.84784375000004,"end":389.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.37096875000003,"end":409.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.07096875,"end":392.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.33909375,"end":406.75221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.96721875000003,"end":411.42659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.19471875000005,"end":419.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.29034375000003,"end":442.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.17971875,"end":427.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.84971875,"end":431.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.16909375,"end":442.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.30346875000004,"end":454.12034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.06534375,"end":463.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.77284375000005,"end":492.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.79784375,"end":500.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.85971875,"end":506.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.76596875,"end":510.34784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.36471875,"end":512.6259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.86221875,"end":514.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.93784375,"end":540.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.38096875,"end":549.6497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.81846875,"end":552.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.7209687500001,"end":553.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.45909375,"end":570.2709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.23284375,"end":572.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.61659375,"end":573.4097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.86534375,"end":576.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.95346875,"end":627.5278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.28721875,"end":636.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":638.8003437500001,"end":641.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.0403437500001,"end":642.5634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.06971875,"end":660.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.4128437500001,"end":662.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.58971875,"end":665.6484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.52596875,"end":671.5209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.62221875,"end":677.2078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.69721875,"end":688.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":689.07096875,"end":692.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.9522187500002,"end":698.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":699.29721875,"end":710.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":711.7847187500001,"end":726.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.8203437500001,"end":730.8872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":731.41034375,"end":742.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":742.09221875,"end":743.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":744.18471875,"end":753.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":753.75284375,"end":760.6884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":761.31284375,"end":784.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":785.12346875,"end":788.0090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":788.9540937500001,"end":790.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":790.59096875,"end":791.3503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":791.8059687500001,"end":793.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":793.57784375,"end":805.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":805.91346875,"end":813.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":814.04721875,"end":832.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":833.1497187500001,"end":835.29284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.189,"end":12.397,"text":"委員司姚發言請謝謝主席 有請秘書長請周秘書長"},{"start":25.402,"end":49.144,"text":"委員好終於終於今天我們可以針對民主進步黨國會改革幾個沒有政治爭議相對是非常正面打造選擇相符的進步國會這樣的條文法案可以進入詢答的程序往前推進了一步我也非常期待下午我們要進入主條"},{"start":50.345,"end":77.038,"text":"我懇切的在這裡再一次呼籲國會改革不要再拖延國會改革不要再害怕下午逐條也希望能夠如同今天上午的會議一樣順順利利據說傅昆奇總召好像人還沒有來到立院啦所以今天也許因為傅總召還沒有指揮還沒有在場所以早上我們可以進行議事"},{"start":78.368,"end":98.148,"text":"再一次拜託下一次下午如果副總召來到現場我希望他帶來的是讓我們可以逐條審查就是論事就法案論法案的這樣一個好的意識態度那進入我的主題之前呢我當然也要回應一下前面幾位委員的一些意見"},{"start":99.329,"end":100.29,"text":"羅志強委員再一次拿出民主進步黨2016的版本"},{"start":119.048,"end":132.203,"text":"若委員每一次都以為撿到槍,其實是見數不見零。我再一次要說明,修法就是與時俱進。您是立法院的新科立委,但您一定也知道借其不連續是什麼。"},{"start":134.145,"end":162.46,"text":"秘書長借其不連續就是立法院運行這麼多年每一個借其因應新的民意、新的代表性以及新的進步思維所以法案都要重新再來借其不連續就是讓立法委員基於新的民意基於更進步的新思維然後將過去曾經提出的法案可以重新檢視所以民進黨在2016年的國會改革的版本"},{"start":163.46,"end":185.34,"text":"當下民主進步黨是國會多數如果要通過也可以通過但因為當時的國會調查權的這個章節社會沒有匯聚共識甚至也有違憲之餘所以在憲法之前人人都得低頭在民意之前國會議員更當低頭因此"},{"start":189.687,"end":203.286,"text":"民主進步黨沒有利用國會多數的時候強推法案。新的屆期、新的名義,民主進步黨今年推出來的國會改革方案就如同我們現在的版本,歡迎大家就事論事來檢視。"},{"start":206.065,"end":221.198,"text":"另外我也要回應黃國昌總召其實黃總召在自己開直播的時候他已經講了他的立場國會改革基本上民眾黨就是支持國民黨"},{"start":222.419,"end":242.627,"text":"這也難怪我們在委員會這麼多次討論國會改革的版本從來沒有看過黃國昌委員針對國民黨所提的議案提出任何意見跟討論反而非常選擇性、非常針對性的來對民主進步黨的版本來做很多抹黑跟攻擊"},{"start":243.84,"end":262.928,"text":"如同剛剛講的ME TOO的法案他支持他不反對但是又利用了立法技術的理由搬出一堆是不是要做立法委員不當關說也要入法剛剛秘書長說明的很好嘛立法委員關說司法在其他的法律是不是也已經規範了"},{"start":264.048,"end":265.589,"text":"行為法十七條就歸雜了。所以在沒有的涉及性騷、涉及性別平等、反歧視的事項就應當這一次來修法入法。"},{"start":286.32,"end":307.999,"text":"所以黃國昌委員總是選擇性的來針對民進黨的版本提出不實的攻擊我再次強調如果有好的建議歡迎黃國昌委員在我們逐條審查的時候來跟民進黨的版本提出更好的意見我們一起來修法入法我絕對樂見但如果只是針對性選擇性的為攻擊而攻擊"},{"start":313.283,"end":340.997,"text":"而且是政治立場凌駕了法律的專業。」黃國昌委員說的國會改革基本上民眾黨就是支持國民黨這一個宣示正足以來證明他在國會改革的議案上政治立場已經凌駕了法律的專業我再一次說這是非常遺憾的事好進入我的PPT進入我的第六頁因為時間有限"},{"start":343.318,"end":363.689,"text":"民主黨,國會的功能有哪些?您對進步國會的想像有什麼?這個題目很大,大家在問。那我可以請教您,您應當去過很多國家的國會參訪,有沒有哪個進步國會的建築、設計讓您印象深刻的嗎?"},{"start":364.997,"end":365.757,"text":"三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具"},{"start":383.427,"end":383.947,"text":"條文宣告"},{"start":401.676,"end":402.716,"text":"條文修正草案案案 。"},{"start":419.443,"end":439.919,"text":"案件事,當時的也是非常心酸才能夠有這麼幾間研究室,包括心腸。所以擴建本身我個人不反對,而且我個人以如果是硬體的設備來講當然在國外的一個運作上是有必要的,所以我也不反對。"},{"start":443.442,"end":462.985,"text":"所以我說民主進步黨提出了一個有關國會不管是簽建、擴建我們有一個具體的條文就是希望可以幫立法院一把來下一頁進步國會他是超越了一個物質性的建築的想像他其實承載了更多精神性的意涵"},{"start":463.814,"end":464.334,"text":"案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條"},{"start":480.343,"end":500.657,"text":"國會更應當是公民教育的殿堂我們跟很多的NGO合作甚至可以規劃NGO進駐的幾個團體把空間co-working space for這些公民團體對外呢一個國會它更會是國會外交重點的場域它也可能成為民主觀光的景點這是吳思瑤對於一個進步國會的綜合想像下一頁"},{"start":507.833,"end":524.204,"text":"我是一個建築迷,大家都知道這幾個列出來的國會,譬如說柯比奕他為印度國會設計的香地格的國會。譬如說這個奧斯卡尼馬爾在巴西所設計的巴西國會。"},{"start":525.605,"end":550.715,"text":"並包括美國知名的建築師Louis Kahn他在孟加拉打卡的國會這都是所有的觀光客、建築迷、專業領域者會去朝聖的國會景點。下一頁您剛講的德國柏林的新國會我個人當然非常的激賞、肯定它有三個時代性的意義當柏林圍牆1989年打開了以後"},{"start":554.517,"end":570.089,"text":"德國人認為要給民主的進程一個新的重要建築的象徵所以請了英國普利茲克獎的建築師Norman Foster1992年動手1994年完工他有一個政治民主意涵的"},{"start":571.457,"end":598.562,"text":"歷史意義。第二個,他設計了一個玻璃的穹頂人民可以走到最高位的至高點往下透過玻璃看著國會議員在那裡問政這象徵的意義就是打開國會國會是透明的讓陽光照進來人民可以在最高位由上往下看這些國會議員彰顯的就是人民是最高位這是第二個透明的國會新時代意義"},{"start":600.982,"end":624.403,"text":"第三條建築實踐的就是最新的環保綠建築的功能。它不只材料選擇再生材料,它整個發電系統都是再生能源。所以為什麼德國的這個民主、扣民、公開、實踐及大成的國會建築成為德國現在。每到德國、到柏林都要去學習、參觀、經驗。"},{"start":628.367,"end":635.666,"text":"experience的一個重要民主建築。所以反觀看看臺灣我很快速的再跟主席爭取多一點時間。下一頁。"},{"start":638.86,"end":665.212,"text":"有在野黨說國會擴建只是想花錢。錯。國會如果擴建、簽建顯然受惠的也不再是我們這些坐在這裡的國會議員。我們要打造的是一個為了新世代的新國會。那時候的新的民意他們需要一個更好的民主象徵的歷史性的建築。下一頁。立法院能不升級嗎?當初為了反攻大陸"},{"start":666.584,"end":682.617,"text":"免強屈就於第二高女應漏就檢,把教室當作一場辦公室。」他當然不合用。下一頁。立法院能不升級嗎?立法院就是一個拼裝車。我們在場這麼多媒體朋友,他們的國會連線是擠在我們黨團辦公室前面那個走廊欸。"},{"start":689.124,"end":708.99,"text":"立法院有很多的違建就因為因漏就檢立法院的職員們在那個昏暗的擁擠的辦公空間裡面來工作怎麼能夠提升整個辦公環境跟問政績效呢?狹小的空間早已不敷需求而且秘書長你很清楚立法院是有違建的下一頁"},{"start":711.806,"end":727.953,"text":"立法院把教室當會議室我秀出來的就是我們吳宗憲委員說他藏了八支麥克風在口袋我才知道原來司法法制委員會有八支麥克風我們常常在審查預算的時候我過去在教育文化委員會很痛苦每一個委員要發言那個麥克風要傳來傳去地來地去"},{"start":731.494,"end":760.334,"text":"就是一個非常落伍的開會空間更不要說我們來後面都會有一個要顯示我們的含氧量二氧化碳濃度的超標的這個設置為什麼要因為他的通風不夠常常一個小小的辦公室擠進多少個行政官員、幕僚人員、國會助理、立法委員所以才會有開會空間要有二氧化碳濃度超標一場人超標了大家趕快出去休息一下"},{"start":761.525,"end":784.075,"text":"這是台灣的國會所以我們在面對歷史國會的擴建、牽涉不是為了這些立法委員想要花錢、想要自肥台灣是世界華人民主的基地台灣是民主同盟國家大家同學同工戰在一個好的民主的表現的國家台灣值得一個進步的國會"},{"start":788.991,"end":804.586,"text":"就如同您一樣,最後一頁由錫堃院長已經啟動了2021年的專家委員會也責定了六處的簽件長職如果簽件不成,原地擴建也是選項"},{"start":806.067,"end":829.648,"text":"由錫昆他創下了這樣的歷史使命我相信韓國瑜院長也應當讓國會的歷史性的重建、牽涉的歷史性的使命要跟上來好嗎我們後續再討論也希望主席我可以請求針對這個主題其實是可以安排共聽會我們讓專業者好好來討論台灣值得一個好的國會謝謝好謝謝吳委員的提議"}]}},{"id":"151741","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151741","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15d602d2287a9e8d7c20df1bb4ac2af973c68e374cd8c4bed0425daec4b5c9a6c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"10:40:55 - 10:54:46","影片長度":"00:13:51","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":831,"end_time":"2024-04-25T10:54:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T10:40:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":476,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（10時41分）謝謝主席，我們有請次長。"],["主席：好，有請王次長。"],["張委員雅琳：抱歉，我也要請一下董事長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請胡董事長。"],["張委員雅琳：首先我要花一點時間來恭喜這次變裝皇后妮妃雅得到「魯保羅變裝皇后」節目的冠軍，他也即將代表參加剛剛沛憶委員說的巴黎文化奧運。我為什麼要用這個時間來說這件事情，其實是除了一些現場看過他表演的人，我想很多人都是透過3年前公視「誰來晚餐」的「我的閨蜜老媽」而認識他。我覺得這件事情我要肯定公視很有前瞻性，而且不會因為它不是主流文化就沒有去關注它，而忽視了這個群體。我也期許公視接下來在開這個兒少台的時候，也可以保持這樣子的前瞻性、多元性來繼續製作相關的節目。","接下來就要講我們現在的兒少節目角色多元性。2017年，陳正倉教授做了一個「全球兒少節目：性別再現研究」，發現臺灣目前兒少節目主要的角色、過半的角色還是以男性為主，女性相對是偏少的；再者，身心障礙者的角色也是不足的。回應到剛剛講的多元性和前瞻性，我們是不是可以考慮設定一個比例，看未來怎麼樣讓這些角色、這些性別都可以呈現更多元的面向？"],["王次長時思：我想這個方向一定可以來繼續努力。"],["張委員雅琳：這個就要請你們繼續做一些設定。","有關剛剛講的多元性，其實現在臺灣有很多孩子來自不同的國家，像美國的DORA是非常有名的卡通，這個小孩本身是拉丁裔的，他們還有另外一個卡通Arthur也非常有名，裡面他一個好朋友的角色是來自越南。所以除了我們剛剛講得多元性別之外，我們也要考慮到種族的多元性，這部分請公視一定要來做一些規劃。","陳教授的研究報告還指出，在兒少節目客群與樣態方面，過去是給五歲以上孩童觀看的節目比較多，但是我看到你們在這次兒少台的報告裡面有講，學齡前、學齡和青少年的比例都在滿持平的標準，所以這個部分我也要給公視一個肯定。","接下來我們就要進入比較挑戰的部分了：我們在公視的兒少資源網裡面發現目前大概只有一個雙語教育，而沒有多元語言的教案，可是根據國家語言發展法第十三條第二項，政府捐助從事傳播之財團法人應提供國家語言多元服務，也就是說，公視是有振興國家語言的法定義務的。我知道公視當然會說它有台語台和客語台，但是為什麼我們今天要做兒少台？就是因為我們認為兒少需要一些專門的節目，其中有關語言這件事情，母語的保存其實是小時候來學最好，所以要提早來接觸。針對這個部分，請問我們是不是可以來規劃多元語言的教材呢？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明幾件事情，第一個是針對多語的部分其實公視也有展開，在這次兒少頻道成立以後，就有展開所謂新住民的兒少節目產製，所以的確會特別重視新住民不同種族的語言應用，甚至公視現在已經投入在積極策劃以越南語的發音來規劃一檔節目，這是第一個。第二個就是在兒少資源網的部分，因為當時製作這個部分是for教案，所以它並沒有支持多語的部分，就是它是提供老師們做為一個參考和輔助性的教材，如果要有多語的搭配，大概要有其他的規劃來進行，這個部分我們會請公視來研議，看看有沒有機會讓它的教案在未來可以有更多語言的搭配，供不同的老師來做使用。"],["張委員雅琳：這部分可不可以有一些相關的報告？如果研議有結果的話，可以提供給我們辦公室？"],["王次長時思：好。"],["張委員雅琳：大概多久可以提供呢？"],["王次長時思：我們可以在1個月之內提供。"],["張委員雅琳：好，沒問題。","接下來，這次兒少節目公開徵案招標不順，有3個節目目前沒有招標出去，兩個是2,340萬的節目，一個是1,170萬的節目，其中兒少版的「流言追追追」根據你們的報告是一個IP的節目，我就很想知道，一個IP節目為什麼會招標不出去？是預算不夠嗎？因為它的預算和其他節目比起來好像比較低。還是現在廠商的量能不足？"],["王次長時思：其實委員已經說出真實的情況。大概有兩個部分，第一個就是臺灣整體市場上的量能其實製作沒有這麼多，就是製作所謂兒少影視音的，到目前為止，其實還沒有培育出這麼多的團隊；第二個就是在經驗上面，因為它的節目型態很多是比較創新的類型，像新住民母語的學習，這一類比較是創新的做法，所以他們也未見得有經驗。但是對公視來說，接下來還是會用其他方法來進行，不管是跟業界來做討論、來做輔導，讓大家可以一起繼續在這個目標上來進行，或者是瞭解業界缺的到底是什麼，是因為人還是資金？我想公視會透過跟產業界的互動之後來做進一步的規劃。至少像新住民母語學習節目，公視就先用自製的方式來彌補，希望在這段時間裡面能有新的、以不同族群語言發音的兒少節目。"],["張委員雅琳：瞭解，聽起來就是新住民母語學習節目會自製，其他兩個部分會再跟業界討論哪裡要補足。我想要知道的是，開台在即了，請問你們預計什麼時候會開始進行這些相關的討論？"],["王次長時思：這部分請公視來說明。"],["胡董事長元輝：跟委員報告，這些部分我們都已經在進行中。"],["張委員雅琳：都已經在進行中了？"],["胡董事長元輝：對。有的部分如果沒有辦法在8月20日開台的時候推出，我們也會在後續的時間中，包括用自製、合製的方式來推出。"],["張委員雅琳：以自製跟合製的方式來補足？好！","我想再追問一個問題，就是我看到得標廠商當中有一個是豐采公司，這家公司過去其實是做偶像劇的，它現在得標的是「親職棚內談話節目」，所以我就會很好奇，這樣一個沒有兒少節目經驗的廠商要如何來製作這樣一個節目？因為並不是把來賓從大人換成小孩就算是兒少節目，所以我覺得公視要去協調、輔導這些廠商的壓力應該會非常沉重，因此這個部分可能要做一些不同的思考。剛剛正好有提到合製，如果全部都要自己來協調製作，我覺得8月一定會來不及，所以合製也許是一個我們要思考的方向。","也因此我想問一下更細節的部分，就是自製到底有多少？多少是來自採購？這些部分我在你們的報告裡面並沒有看到，但是在2017年的研究裡面是有發現自製節目過少的問題，既然要講人才孵育，這個部分一定要達到某個比例。再來就是自己自製新節目的時候是不是有一些時數的限制，畢竟如果一直重複播舊的，也不是一件好事，所以這方面是不是有相關的規定？第三個就是回到剛剛講的，如果是透過公視自己協調製作，是不是可以用另外一個方式來做前測呢？可能有一些腳本可以先找兒少來評估、來做前測，確認這個方向是他喜歡的，調整好之後再開始製作、自製。這三件事情目前有相關的規劃嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：跟委員報告，對！比如說節目的前測，這是我們的標準作業流程（SOP），公視製作節目跟商業台最大的不同就是我們會做前測。另外，關於自製新節目的時數，我們的確是有一些比例上的自我期許，但也有一些部分希望能夠和民間一起合作發展我們將來的兒少產業。"],["張委員雅琳：這些項目聽起來好像已經有詳細的規劃，這些詳細的規劃是不是可以在兩個禮拜內送到我們辦公室？"],["胡董事長元輝：好，沒有問題。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝。再來，其實我自己是非常喜歡看兒少節目，所以我不知道次長跟董事長有沒有看過這兩個節目，因為像《海洋日記》其實是你們自己過去跟民間合製，這兩個作品都得到了德國慕尼黑國際兒少雙年展，甚至也有得到美國內華達城的野生動物及風景電影節最佳兒童影片，這兩個其實都是滿不錯的作品。所以我會希望，因為我看到你們的計畫也提到要跟富邦文教基金會合作，我不太確定現在規劃跟他們洽談的時程是什麼，因為我覺得這兩個節目已經都是在網路上面的評價也不錯的節目，我們是不是可以讓它持續的發展，而且它也強調是臺灣的山海教育，這部分是不是有比較詳細的已經進行的時程呢？"],["胡董事長元輝：我們跟富邦文教基金會以及其他民間過去有這類經驗的都在進行討論，富邦的部分，我們前一段時間也進行了一些討論，關於具體的部分，我請同仁先說明一下。"],["徐總經理秋華：其實富邦文教基金會是一直在做兒少IP孵育的計畫，其實它孵育出來很好的IP，我們就會跟他們一起合作，把它做成節目，這是我們現在一直持續在進行的，所以除了這個之外，我們後續還有新的節目可以推出。"],["張委員雅琳：所以目前已經跟對方聯繫了嗎？"],["徐總經理秋華：是的。"],["張委員雅琳：因為我收到的資訊好像不是這樣，所以這個我們會後詳細討論好不好？"],["徐總經理秋華：好的，沒問題。"],["張委員雅琳：再來我希望的是，因為要做兒少節目，只有靠公視自己真的是太辛苦了，所以我們一定要做到公私協力這件事情。我最後的一個建議是，兒少台節目製作一定要有一定程度比例的外部兒少專業團體來參與前面的內部發想、參與前面的測試。當然我們現在可能沒有那麼多廠商，但是我覺得如果可以有更多兒少專家和民間團體的諮詢參與，我們其實就能夠把關品質是不是符合兒少的需求，因為畢竟6億不是小錢，我們要照顧到兒童，還是要回應到是不是他們的喜好。","抱歉，我再用最後1分鐘講一件事情，我想我們臺灣人所有人集體的共識，對於二二八的態度應該都是悲傷、緬懷而且沉痛、反思的一個態度，我相信次長應該是非常認同。"],["王次長時思：是。"],["張委員雅琳：我現在只要搜尋二二八，我們搜尋到的相關報導都是在紀念，再加上有過半的民眾其實也是支持所謂的轉型正義，但是我看到TaiwanPlus連續兩年的二二八都在做蔣介石的Legacy，我認為我們要討論蔣介石的功與過不是不可以，但是我們要在二二八這一天做這件事情嗎？因為我覺得還有很多遺族都活在這個社會裡面，他們看到這個心裡是怎麼想？再來，這是一個面向世界的國際媒體，在反省威權的日子裡播送威權者的Legacy，這件事情恰當嗎？這是我們想要傳遞給世界臺灣的態度嗎？我想這都不是吧？所以可不可以請次長給我一個簡單的回復？"],["王次長時思：我想面對臺灣的歷史是所有臺灣人共同的責任跟義務，尤其透過這些紀念，目的不只是悲傷，更重要的事情是獲得前進跟堅決支持民主的力量，所以究竟在整個國際的媒體呈現上，臺灣要呈現什麼樣的國際面貌，讓公視TaiwanPlus有更深層的思考，更具臺灣主體性的思考，我想這是必要的，所以這些內容，我們就讓TaiwanPlus來做重新的規劃跟檢討。"],["張委員雅琳：好，可不可以請TaiwanPlus在兩個禮拜內給我一個檢討報告好不好？"],["胡董事長元輝：跟委員報告，我們大概統計了一下，從開台到現在，針對轉型正義做了大概55則相關的新聞跟報導，那麼委員所談的這個部分，相關的部分，我們後續會做檢討，再跟您提供報告，沒有問題。"],["張委員雅琳：對，因為我想這個重點是，我們當然平常都有做很多轉型正義，可是我們在二二八這一天做這件事情是不恰當的吧？次長，你同意嗎？董事長，你同意嗎？"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，因為我沒有真的看到這個節目，所以我不太適合在這個地方評論……"],["張委員雅琳：好，瞭解。"],["王次長時思：但是我想讓媒體進行媒體的自我反省跟檢視是最好的方法。"],["張委員雅琳：好，那我就等公視提供給我的報告，謝謝。"],["王次長時思：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝張雅琳委員。","主席在此宣告一下，剛剛一開始有說在范雲委員之後處理臨時提案，因為質詢順序有調動，所以我們就在陳培瑜委員質詢後處理臨時提案。"],["主席（張委員雅琳代）：有請林宜瑾委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","葉元之","陳培瑜","何欣純","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","范雲","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","林月琴","陳冠廷","羅智強"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫─ 公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":0.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.06471875,"end":0.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.78909375,"end":10.476593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.88159375,"end":12.113468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.454718750000001,"end":17.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.89346875,"end":16.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.57221875,"end":19.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":19.67346875,"end":20.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.26409375,"end":20.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.47846875,"end":84.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.344093750000006,"end":49.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.23284375,"end":92.28659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.74221875,"end":118.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.20659375000001,"end":120.70409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.19346875000001,"end":125.76659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.81721875000001,"end":157.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.97284375,"end":156.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.96409375000002,"end":166.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.98784375000002,"end":213.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.02284375000002,"end":230.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.04534375,"end":279.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.80159375,"end":287.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.89784375,"end":285.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":287.85096875,"end":290.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.56784375,"end":290.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":290.92221875,"end":290.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.93909375000004,"end":324.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":324.67221875,"end":383.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":383.51534375,"end":383.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.97096875,"end":396.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":393.25221875,"end":393.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":396.72846875000005,"end":398.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.39471875000004,"end":402.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.68534375,"end":403.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.07346875,"end":412.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":403.14096875,"end":403.83284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.91159375,"end":475.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.27721875000003,"end":507.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.33971875000003,"end":531.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":518.51534375,"end":518.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":531.52596875,"end":536.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.8247187500001,"end":537.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":537.6684687500001,"end":584.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.7665937500001,"end":596.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.9965937500001,"end":612.7959687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.96471875,"end":615.8672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.81659375,"end":616.5590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":616.5590937500001,"end":658.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.14909375,"end":621.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":659.4384687500001,"end":663.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":663.7922187500001,"end":684.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":679.7222187500001,"end":680.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":684.8859687500001,"end":699.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":700.15784375,"end":704.1740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":704.49471875,"end":708.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":708.89909375,"end":712.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":713.0334687500001,"end":720.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":720.96471875,"end":735.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":735.35909375,"end":739.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":739.71284375,"end":740.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":741.34971875,"end":761.5490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":762.35909375,"end":770.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":771.18471875,"end":771.2353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":771.2859687499999,"end":772.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":772.9734687499999,"end":778.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":780.07784375,"end":780.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":782.2209687500001,"end":798.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":798.5559687500001,"end":804.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":804.66471875,"end":808.9172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":809.7947187500001,"end":812.0053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":812.24159375,"end":814.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":814.77284375,"end":822.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":822.77159375,"end":825.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":827.0915937500001,"end":827.3784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":828.57659375,"end":828.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":828.71159375,"end":830.97284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.076,"end":20.425,"text":"謝謝主席 我們有請次長好 有請王次長抱歉 有請一下董事長 謝謝有請胡董事長"},{"start":25.769,"end":47.15,"text":"首先我要花一點時間來恭喜我們這次變裝皇后尼菲亞得到一個盧寶羅變裝皇后節目的冠軍那她也即將代表剛剛佩玉委員說的巴黎文化奧運那為什麼用這個時間來說這件事情其實是我想除了很多人現場看過她表演的人我想還有很多人都是透過三年前公視的我的閨蜜"},{"start":48.351,"end":48.431,"text":"﹚張雅琳﹚"},{"start":72.894,"end":92.039,"text":"接下來就要講我們現在的兒少節目的一個角色的多元性就是我們看了一下2017年陳正昌教授做的一個全球兒少節目性別在線研究的時候是有發現說台灣目前的兒少節目裡面其實我們好像主要的角色"},{"start":92.819,"end":94.38,"text":"我想這個方向一定可以來繼續努力"},{"start":121.615,"end":146.732,"text":"這個就要請我們繼續來做一些設定那再來就是說這個其實像剛剛講的就是多元性其實台灣有很多的孩子也是來自於不同的國家那像美國他這樣這個Dora是非常有名的一個卡通那這個小孩本身是拉丁裔的那他們還有另外一個卡通叫Arthur也是一個非常有名的那裡面的一個他好朋友的角色是來自於越南所以我覺得這個東西除了我們剛剛講的"},{"start":147.933,"end":148.113,"text":"﹚張雅琳﹚"},{"start":168.015,"end":184.088,"text":"但是我看到這一次兒少台的報告裡面有講就是說在學齡前學齡跟青少年的比例都是在一個蠻持平的標準所以這個部分也是我要給公視的一個肯定那接下來我們就要進入比較挑戰的部分了"},{"start":184.868,"end":213.285,"text":"就是說我們現在在公視的兒少資源網裡面我們的教案目前你可以看到基本上是沒有多元語言的教案我們大概就只有一個雙語教育可是根據國家語言發展法第13條第2項政府捐贈從事傳播制裁團法人應提供國家語言的多元服務也就是說公視是有振興國家語言那個法定義務的那我知道公視當然是說它有台語台跟客語台但是為什麼我們今天要做兒少台"},{"start":214.085,"end":230.032,"text":"就是因為我們認為就是兒少有需要的一些專門的節目那也就在於說語言這件事情母語的保存其實是小時候來學是最好的所以我們要提早來接觸所以我希望在這個部分我們是不是可以來規劃多元語言的教材呢"},{"start":232.222,"end":251.101,"text":"跟委員做說明大概幾件事情第一個就是針對多語的部分其實公視也有展開在這一次兒少頻道成立以後它就有展開所謂新著名的兒少產制所以的確會特別重視所謂新著名不同種族的語言來運用那甚至公視現在已經投入在積極策劃就是以越南語的發音來規劃一檔節目"},{"start":252.922,"end":279.473,"text":"這是第一個那第二個就是在兒少資源網的這個部分那因為它當時製作的時候這個部分是for教案所以它並沒有支持多語的就是說它是提供老師們作為一個參考跟輔助性的教材那如果要有多語的這個搭配的話大概又要有其他的規劃來進行那這部分我想會請公視來研議有沒有機會讓它的教案在未來可以有更多語言的搭配使得不同的老師們可以來做使用"},{"start":280.293,"end":302.141,"text":"這個可不可以有一些相關的報告如果研議的話有個結果的話可以提供給我們辦公室但是大概多久的時候可以提供呢我們可以在這個一個月之內來提供沒問題好那接下來我們就要來看兒少這一次的這個節目在徵案的時候呢招標不順有三個節目目前是沒有招標出去的分別是這個一個是2345有兩個是2340萬的一個是1170萬的節目"},{"start":307.003,"end":323.693,"text":"那其中喔就是說其實兒少版的留言追追追啊其實是一個我們在報告裡面說是IP的一個節目那我就很想知道一個IP節目為什麼我們會招標不出去是預算不夠嗎因為他預算好像跟別人比起來比較低還是說我們現在廠商的量能不足"},{"start":324.734,"end":340.361,"text":"其實跟委員剛其實已經有說出真實的情況大概有兩個部分第一個就是台灣整體的市場上的量能其實製作沒有這麼多製作所謂的兒少飲適應的在目前為止其實還沒有培育出這麼多的團隊那第二個就是說在經驗上面這個因為"},{"start":341.321,"end":356.528,"text":"的節目形態很多是比較有創新的類型像新住民母語的學習啊好像這一類比較是創新的做法所以也未見得他們有經驗那但是因為對公視來說接下來還是會用其他的方法來進行不管是說跟業界來做討論來做"},{"start":358.649,"end":359.029,"text":"﹚張雅琳﹚"},{"start":383.582,"end":383.863,"text":"我想這個公視的表達說明"},{"start":399.758,"end":400.338,"text":"自治和合資的方式來補足"},{"start":414.437,"end":433.37,"text":"好 那我想要再追問一個就是說我看到一個得標廠商是風采這個公司他過去其實做偶像劇的那他現在得標的是叫做親子的棚內談話節目所以我就會很好奇啊像他這樣子一個廠商沒有兒少遊戲沒有兒少節目經驗的他要如何來做這樣子的一個節目"},{"start":434.29,"end":456.581,"text":"因為這個其實不是說把來賓換成大人跟小孩就可以就是一個屬於兒少的節目所以這個部分我覺得可能我想這聽起來公視要去協調來輔導這些廠商的壓力應該是非常沉重所以我覺得這個部分我們可能要來再做一些不同的思考就是說因為剛好提到合制所以我覺得這部分可能也是一個"},{"start":457.481,"end":475.014,"text":"如果我們全部都要自己來協調製作我覺得8月一定會來不及所以合制也許是一個我們要思考的方向所以我想要再問更細節的部分就是說就是自製到底有多少多少是來自於採購我現在在報告裡面是沒有看到但是在2017年的研究裡面是有發現我們自製的節目是過少的"},{"start":476.368,"end":496.72,"text":"所以這個部分因為我們既然講人才富裕所以這個部分一定要達到某一個比例那再來就是說自己自製新節目的時候呢是不是有一些時數的限制畢竟如果重複一直播舊的也不是一件好事啦所以這是不是有相關的規定第三個就是回到剛剛講的我們如果都要直接扣過我們自己協調製作我們是不是可以用另外一個方式來做前測呢"},{"start":497.66,"end":506.759,"text":"他可能我們有一些腳本我們可以先找兒少來評估來做前測來確認這個方向是他喜歡的調整好之後我們再開始做自治這三件事情是我們目前有相關的規劃嗎?"},{"start":508.553,"end":536.514,"text":"跟委員報告對在比如說在節目的前測這是我們標準的SOP作業流程公視的製作節目跟商業台最大不同就是我們會做前測那另外關於這個自製新節目的時數的部分我們的確是有一些比例上的自我期許但也有一些部分希望是能夠跟民間一起來合作發展我們家的兒少產業那這些商務聽起來好像已經有詳細的規劃這些詳細的規劃是不是也可以在兩個禮拜送到我們辦公室"},{"start":536.894,"end":553.615,"text":"好,沒有問題謝謝那再來就是說其實我自己是非常喜歡看兒少節目所以我不知道次長跟董事長有沒有看過這兩個節目因為像《海洋日記》其實是你們自己過去跟民間合制嘛那這兩個產品作品都得到了德國慕尼黑國際兒少雙年展"},{"start":554.336,"end":569.55,"text":"甚至也有得到美國內華達成的野生動物及風景電影節最佳兒童影片所以這兩個其實都是蠻不錯的一個作品所以我會希望就是說因為我看到你們的計畫也有說要跟富邦文教基金會來去做合作那我不太確定現在規劃的一個跟他們洽談的一個時程是什麼因為我覺得這都是兩個已經在網路上面"},{"start":574.654,"end":575.014,"text":"主持人 張雅琳"},{"start":585.067,"end":612.527,"text":"我們跟富邦文教基金會以及其他的民間過去有這類經驗的都在進行討論那富邦的部分我們前一段時間也進行了一些討論那具體的部分是不是請說明一下其實富邦文教基金會他現在一直在做兒少IP賦育的這個計畫那其實他賦育出來很好的IP我們就會一起跟他合作把它做成節目這是我們現在一直持續在進行的所以除了這個之外我們後續還有新的節目可以推出"},{"start":613.087,"end":628.642,"text":"所以目前已經跟對方聯繫了嗎?對,是的因為我收到的資訊好像不是這樣所以這個我們會後詳細討論好不好那再來就是說我希望就是因為要做得上節目我只有靠公視自己真的是太辛苦了所以我們一定要做到公司協力這件事情"},{"start":629.662,"end":658.275,"text":"再來我最後的一個建議是說我們兒少台節目製作的建議一定要有一定程度比例的外部兒少的專業團體來參與前面的內部發想參與前面的測試再來就是說我們當然現在可能沒有那麼多廠商但是我覺得就是我們如果可以讓有更多的兒少專家在民間團體和民間團體的諮詢參與我們其實就能夠把關這個品質是不是符合兒少的需求因為畢竟六億不是小錢我們要照顧到兒童我們還是要回應到是不是他們的喜好"},{"start":659.925,"end":683.979,"text":"抱歉我再用最後一分鐘講一件事情就是說我想我們台灣人所有人集體的共識對於228的一個態度應該都是一個悲傷而且緬懷而且沉痛反思的一個態度我相信次長應該是非常認同這是我看到我現在只要搜尋228我們搜尋到相關報導都是在紀念"},{"start":685.02,"end":711.609,"text":"但是呢 那再加上我們其實有非常多的過半的民眾其實也是支持這個所謂的轉型正義喔但是我看到Turn Plus在連續兩年的228都在做蔣介石的legacy我當然認為就是說我們要去來討論蔣介石的一個功與過不是不可以但是我們要在228這一天做這件事情嗎"},{"start":713.086,"end":713.266,"text":"我想..."},{"start":741.409,"end":770.206,"text":"面對台灣的歷史是所有台灣人共同的責任跟義務那尤其透過這些紀念目的不只是悲傷更重要的事情是獲得前進跟堅決支持民主的力量所以究竟在整個國際的媒體呈現上台灣要呈現什麼樣的國際面貌我想讓公視台灣plus有更深層的思考根據台灣主體性的思考我想這是必要的所以我想這些內容我們就讓台灣plus來做"},{"start":771.568,"end":771.969,"text":"臺灣Plus"},{"start":782.313,"end":808.509,"text":"跟委員報告我們大概統計了一下從開台到現在針對轉型正義做的大概55則相關的新聞跟報導那麼委員所談的這個部分我們相關的部分我們後續會做檢討再跟您提送報告沒有問題對因為我想這個重點是說我們當然平常都有做很多轉型正義可是我們在228這一天耶這一天做這件事情是不恰當的吧市長你同意嗎?董事長你同意嗎?"},{"start":809.787,"end":810.247,"text":"好,謝謝張雅琳委員"}]}},{"id":"151740","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151740","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce153e7234010ae5be21c97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed04d60f788256e38ee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"10:37:49 - 10:49:08","影片長度":"00:11:19","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":679,"end_time":"2024-04-25T10:49:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T10:37:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":598,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（10時37分）謝謝主席，我請部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長辛苦了。"],["許部長銘春：不會。"],["蘇委員清泉：功成身退。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["蘇委員清泉：希望很快就有高就、更好的位子。","我今天有一個問題先請教，在南部或者全臺灣，一般肉類的冷鏈加工屬於A級，他們聘請外勞，是其員工總數的25%……"],["許部長銘春：核配比率……"],["蘇委員清泉：沒錯嘛？"],["許部長銘春：對，冷凍冷藏，我看這邊是25%沒錯。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個照片是我們的第一批石斑魚，從興達出發，我去跟他們加油打氣、活魚運搬。現在的水產加工，尤其在高雄跟屏東，他們也都用冷鏈，而職業別就不行，我這裡要求是不是能比照肉品？因為一樣都是全程冷鏈，所以這些比率能不能也給他們調成25%，這個要求不過分啦！他們也都在……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個部分是在經濟部工業局產發署，行業分級是他們在評估，我會把委員的意見轉達給他們，認為可以的話，請他們也能夠做一些檢討調整。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為現在真的是缺人缺得很嚴重，像這一種，我前天去看我們殺豬的，殺豬也一樣，那也是整個都凋零，從頭到尾，臺灣的小孩沒人要做啦！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：薪水也不錯啊！相對的，合法的工廠不敢聘非法外勞，而一般打零工的，譬如農業是今天要幾個就來幾個。我覺得，這些逃跑的外勞跟合法的外勞是臺灣安定的最大力量，我這裡要給移工最大的肯定，我們不能再有任何的歧視等，什麼都不行，因為他們真的對我們的貢獻太大了。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：我跟大家報告，現在農村都老化，非法的也好，如果沒有這些移工幫忙的話，根本動不了，在高樹、恆春都一樣，我們看了都很感動。當然勞動部這邊能配合的就要儘量配合，能夠讓他們身分變正常是應該的。","再來就是我們要提高他們的待遇，事實上，現在那些逃跑的移工、外勞每天是計日的，做一天就1,500、2,000，有的到兩千多，所以他們比計月工作的更高，這已經很高了！比起人家基本工資才2、3萬塊，對不對？他們一天就可以拿到1,500、2,000，一個月就5、6萬跑不掉，所以他寧可跑掉，這個是很糟糕的事情！部長，你要卸任，但你要看看怎麼做。"],["許部長銘春：這個我們持續在檢討，不過說實在，這些失聯移工雖然看起來領日薪滿高，但是他有風險，也可能會被剝削，然後也沒有社會保險、勞健保什麼的，其實說起來也是處境堪慮啦。所以我們希望都是合法引進，希望我們的雇主善待這些合法移工，給他應有、合理的薪資，這樣才能夠留住人。"],["蘇委員清泉：我看我們高雄、屏東這些產業，包括做食品、做肉類以及漁業，事實上他們很善待外籍移工，你要跟我說會看到什麼凌虐、霸凌，我在這邊鄭重講，我沒有看到，而且還會塞一些bonus給他們！因為不善待他們就找不到人呀，真的找不到人！而且這個需求量很大，所以這個政策還是要與時俱進，薪水太低就沒有人要來啦！我們現在的移工最主要來自菲律賓，還有呢？"],["許部長銘春：菲律賓、印尼、越南還有泰國。"],["蘇委員清泉：泰國就少了吧？"],["許部長銘春：對，現在比較少了。"],["蘇委員清泉：泰國自己在發展產業。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以你現在要引進印度的移工嘛？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：那我們初期是要引進多少人？"],["許部長銘春：人數還沒有確定，因為我們要看各產業的需求，我們會邀目的事業主管機關，像經濟部、衛福部、農業部及內政部來討論大概有多少需求，然後再來決定。"],["蘇委員清泉：我跟部長講，事實上，東南亞這些國家都有混了一點點華人的血統，比較有華人文化，他們生活習性還可以跟我們compatible，有一點點混合。有關印度的移工，印度因為是高加索人，在醫學、人類學上我們就是蒙古系，那邊是高加索系，高加索人的生活習慣、宗教跟我們完全不一樣。那你要引進印度的移工進來，當然缺人啦，也要讓引進來源多元化，但你有沒有想到他們的生活方式、觀念跟我們不一樣，大家也對印度還有很多的疑慮，勞動部這一塊是怎麼補強？你總不能把他引進來就丟給仲介，仲介沒有能力、他沒有能力！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們其實也會透過召開諮詢會議讓社會各個團體、專家學者來參與對話，讓大家對印度的部分提出希望我們再來做一些怎麼樣的規劃，也讓大家能夠對印度更瞭解，然後對印度移工素質的部分能夠予以肯定、有信心，這個部分我們會持續召開會議，也會透過各種方式讓我們的民眾能夠瞭解。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個要加強。"],["許部長銘春：是，會。"],["蘇委員清泉：因為印度在國際上習性、風評不太好，不能講這有歧視，沒有歧視啦！"],["許部長銘春：但是不會耶，報告委員，其實全世界的印度移工大概有1,800萬分布在世界各國，白領的部分臺灣就有兩千七百多人在這裡，其實印度移工的素質在世界各國都滿受肯定的，像日本去年已經跟它簽MOU、現在韓國也在談，我們是第二個跟它簽的，所以這部分我覺得大概……但是大家所關心的、擔心的我們都會透過對話去化解疑慮。"],["蘇委員清泉：你要兩方調適。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：進來這邊不能把他丟給一些仲介業者去磨合，我覺得這個很危險！"],["許部長銘春：對！這個部分我們會加強。"],["蘇委員清泉：還有你們跟印度談MOU，一直都是保密嘛，保密、保密！我們很多同仁都跟我反映，跟你們要什麼都沒有、什麼資料都沒有，都保密！到底我們跟印度的狀況如何？是印度很支持我們還是怎麼樣？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員……"],["蘇委員清泉：我看印度也沒有在幫我們講話啊！"],["許部長銘春：沒有啦！委員，這種MOU在程序完成之前都是保密的，我們也不是只有針對印度，之前4個國家都是這樣，還有其他各部會跟人家簽的MOU也是都這樣，完成之後行政院自然就會公布啦！"],["蘇委員清泉：所以沒有比較特別？"],["許部長銘春：而且它只是一個大原則而已，委員看那個條文就很簡單。"],["蘇委員清泉：我看有13條，都寫得很籠統。"],["許部長銘春：13條嘛，那是一個原則，就是大家有一個意向書、把大原則先談定下來，後面的工作層級會議才是重點，那才會有實質內容出來。"],["蘇委員清泉：我看印度也很少提到臺灣、很少幫臺灣講話，所以我們這樣一頭熱……"],["許部長銘春：有喔！我們其實……"],["蘇委員清泉：幫臺灣講話的只有印度神童，他都亂講！"],["許部長銘春：沒有啦，委員，其實我們現在跟印度之間的交流還滿密切的，包括經濟、經貿的投資等等，甚至包括醫藥方面也都有，所以……"],["蘇委員清泉：印度的學名藥的原料藥占全世界將近30%，中國大陸將近50%，所以這2個國家加起來占全世界學名藥的原料藥供應將近80%；印度的原料藥的原料、更原始的原料還跟中國大陸買，所以這整個都卡死！所以美國說要修理中國大陸，如果原料藥不給它，我看它抗生素第二代、第三代都沒有藥啦，所以講那個事情都是錯綜複雜，沒有像我們想得那麼簡單啦！","勞動部這一塊關於引進外國移工，因為現在來源國越來越少，所以我們還是要廣一點！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["蘇委員清泉：我有去談過緬甸耶，後來沒有簽嘛，可以再加強這一塊，他們也很喜歡來。"],["許部長銘春：緬甸我也覺得很可惜，其實我們勞動部之前已經談到某個階段了，但是沒有辦法！會有一些……"],["蘇委員清泉：我在第8屆的時候還去跟他們農業部……當然是我們這邊農委會請我順道一起去啦，談得滿可以，但後來就沒有成，所以這個可以加強，緬甸5、6千萬人而且近，因此可以廣收各個來源國，不然臺灣真的缺工、缺料、缺專家越來越嚴重！只會越嚴重啦，不會改善！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們其實不放棄啦，雖然過去談了、後來觸礁，我覺得不放棄啦，我們會持續透過外交部來評估……"],["蘇委員清泉：外交部做不到的我們也可以幫忙。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["蘇委員清泉：好，謝謝！"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員。","現在休息10分鐘。","休息（10時49分）","繼續開會（10時59分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","請鄭天財委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.316593750000003,"end":10.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.35846875,"end":11.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.37034375,"end":16.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.77096875,"end":18.239093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.294093750000002,"end":18.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.47534375,"end":19.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.399093750000002,"end":21.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.85034375,"end":22.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.33971875,"end":24.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.80346875,"end":25.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.512218750000002,"end":26.05221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.17034375,"end":28.617218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.43159375,"end":28.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.617218750000003,"end":28.684718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.258468750000002,"end":34.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.79346875,"end":35.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.721593750000004,"end":35.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.94096875,"end":37.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.56096875,"end":40.17659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.37909375,"end":41.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.25659375,"end":45.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.59409375,"end":41.99909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.64034375,"end":42.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.50471875,"end":49.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.66909375,"end":49.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.45784375,"end":52.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.96784375,"end":53.102843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.102843750000005,"end":53.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.27159375,"end":53.625968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":53.845343750000005,"end":55.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.24596875,"end":56.174093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.174093750000004,"end":60.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.19096875,"end":56.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.66284375,"end":60.713468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.713468750000004,"end":61.017218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.74721875,"end":60.915968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.017218750000005,"end":65.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.39221875,"end":64.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.34971875000001,"end":69.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.38284375,"end":71.53034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.86784375,"end":74.78721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.23909375000001,"end":72.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.15846875000001,"end":81.90846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.11596875000001,"end":77.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.58846875,"end":78.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.17846875000001,"end":82.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.51596875,"end":86.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.53284375000001,"end":82.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.66721875,"end":89.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.02971875,"end":89.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.65409375,"end":104.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.43659375,"end":108.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.48659375000001,"end":111.22034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.84471875000001,"end":113.75159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.31284375000001,"end":114.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.29159375,"end":116.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.46846875000001,"end":119.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.05034375000001,"end":119.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.75909375,"end":121.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.46346875,"end":121.56471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.58159375000001,"end":121.95284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.15534375000001,"end":123.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.53909375,"end":125.73284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.34034375,"end":127.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.75784375,"end":131.26784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.62221875,"end":134.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":134.60909375,"end":136.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.24159375000002,"end":144.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.43909375,"end":143.16471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.44721875000002,"end":145.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.64971875,"end":145.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":145.29096875000002,"end":156.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.25971875000002,"end":156.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.68159375000002,"end":157.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.11159375,"end":162.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.58346875,"end":166.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.41846875000002,"end":167.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.51096875000002,"end":169.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.67096875000001,"end":181.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.62784375,"end":177.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.21846875,"end":177.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.53471875000002,"end":178.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.84659375,"end":181.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.53846875000002,"end":182.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.82096875000002,"end":190.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.85346875000002,"end":191.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.34284375000001,"end":194.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.95409375,"end":195.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":196.70909375000002,"end":201.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.87284375000002,"end":205.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.46721875,"end":209.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.24721875,"end":209.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.14159375000003,"end":212.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.24659375000002,"end":214.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.23784375000002,"end":218.19096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.69721875000002,"end":220.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.82346875000002,"end":221.59971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.83596875,"end":223.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.09721875000002,"end":228.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.46409375000002,"end":226.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.53096875000003,"end":240.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.92159375000003,"end":246.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.67596875,"end":258.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.82596875,"end":267.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.00596875,"end":270.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.52034375,"end":270.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.14471875000004,"end":275.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.75159375000004,"end":278.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.00846875,"end":281.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.21909375,"end":283.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.93596875000003,"end":289.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.24721875,"end":290.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.22596875,"end":294.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.63471875000005,"end":299.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.67596875000004,"end":301.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.85721875,"end":304.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.09721875,"end":306.86909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.27846875,"end":307.39221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.91971875,"end":306.93659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.97034375000004,"end":306.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.02096875,"end":307.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":307.10534375000003,"end":309.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.72534375000004,"end":309.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.53534375000004,"end":314.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.95659375,"end":314.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.91846875000005,"end":314.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":314.98596875000004,"end":315.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":315.45846875,"end":317.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.93909375000004,"end":333.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.64971875000003,"end":335.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.82659375000003,"end":338.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.83034375,"end":339.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.74159375000005,"end":341.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.13784375,"end":343.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.67346875000004,"end":349.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.08596875,"end":358.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":359.28284375000004,"end":370.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.65659375,"end":391.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.72909375,"end":397.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.43721875,"end":407.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.74784375,"end":411.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.71346875,"end":420.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":421.01159375000003,"end":433.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.62159375000005,"end":435.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.02221875000004,"end":434.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.21596875,"end":436.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":436.80659375000005,"end":443.91096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.41346875000005,"end":460.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.78596875000005,"end":463.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.09346875000006,"end":472.59846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":471.97409375,"end":472.49721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.59846875000005,"end":485.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.64909375,"end":472.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.76596875,"end":481.06971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.06971875000005,"end":481.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.24221875,"end":484.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.74846875000003,"end":484.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.90034375000005,"end":485.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.81159375000004,"end":490.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.84534375000004,"end":486.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.11034375,"end":491.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.03409375,"end":500.76284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.94846875,"end":508.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.03596875000005,"end":512.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.82846875,"end":530.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.7078437499999,"end":530.3953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.3447187500001,"end":535.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.4622187500001,"end":535.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.47471875,"end":535.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.8628437500001,"end":541.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":536.5547187500001,"end":538.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.14034375,"end":546.0890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.30846875,"end":550.79721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.13909375,"end":550.6284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.94909375,"end":551.8940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.98284375,"end":551.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.24846875,"end":555.1340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.5522187500001,"end":553.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.91034375,"end":558.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.99471875,"end":556.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.27721875,"end":571.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":571.9753437500001,"end":572.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.9709687500001,"end":573.0047187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.2409687500001,"end":573.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":573.2578437500001,"end":577.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":577.52721875,"end":578.1684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":578.11784375,"end":579.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.6028437500001,"end":580.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.24409375,"end":580.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":580.61534375,"end":587.9053437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":587.97284375,"end":588.0403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":588.05721875,"end":598.9584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":599.2790937500001,"end":603.1772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":603.98721875,"end":608.1553437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":608.59409375,"end":608.9822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":609.30284375,"end":610.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":610.9565937500001,"end":611.7665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.00284375,"end":615.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":615.79971875,"end":620.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.8078437500001,"end":617.8247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":617.8247187500001,"end":618.21284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.14909375,"end":621.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":621.41909375,"end":625.2665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.45284375,"end":621.4865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.81534375,"end":623.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.4353437500001,"end":625.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":625.89096875,"end":626.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.5659687500001,"end":633.5690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.94034375,"end":637.7878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":634.0078437500001,"end":635.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":637.9397187500001,"end":638.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.02409375,"end":638.1928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":638.1928437500001,"end":641.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.2097187500001,"end":638.3447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.82096875,"end":641.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":641.97284375,"end":641.9897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":642.25971875,"end":648.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.2634687500001,"end":645.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":649.09409375,"end":653.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.90346875,"end":663.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.6628437500001,"end":654.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.1984687500001,"end":657.8859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":663.7078437499999,"end":664.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.85971875,"end":664.8215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.90596875,"end":664.9228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":665.26034375,"end":667.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.71159375,"end":671.31846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":672.06096875,"end":675.4865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":674.2040937500001,"end":676.9209687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.9209687500002,"end":678.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.07284375,"end":677.5959687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.305,"end":33.557,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我請部長。請許部長。蘇委好。部長辛苦了。功成身退了。謝謝。希望很快就有高就,更好的位置。好,我今天有一個問題先請教。在南部或者全台灣,我們一般做肉類的"},{"start":35.078,"end":43.89,"text":"兩年加工的他病情外的屬於A級嘛那他們病情外老是他的員工總數的25%"},{"start":46.73,"end":48.712,"text":"現在的水產加工在高雄跟屏東"},{"start":70.45,"end":85.08,"text":"他們也都是用冷鏈那你職業別你就不行我自己要求是不是能比照弱品因為一樣都是全程都冷鏈所以這些的比例能不能給他們調整25%"},{"start":86.981,"end":103.442,"text":"這個要求不過分啦。因為這個部分是經濟部工業局的產發署,行業分級是他們在評估。我會把委員的意見轉達給他們,認為如果有就是可以的話,我們這邊請他們也能夠做一些檢討調整。"},{"start":104.468,"end":118.022,"text":"因為現在真的是切人切得很嚴重齁,這一種我昨天、前天去看我們台滴啊,台滴也一樣齁,那也是整個都都冷卻,從頭到尾,這台灣的孩子沒有人要做啦。"},{"start":119.944,"end":135.42,"text":"行事也不錯所以也相對的就是他拼不到合法的工廠他不敢去拼非法的外勞一般打零工的譬如說農業的今天要幾個就來幾個"},{"start":137.883,"end":162.342,"text":"我覺得這些逃跑的外勞跟合法的外勞是台灣安定的最大力量我這裡要跟我們外移工做最好的肯定我們不能再有任何的歧視再有任何什麼都不行因為他們真的對我們的貢獻太大了我跟大家報告那個如果現在農村都老化如果沒有這些"},{"start":163.612,"end":180.533,"text":"好啦!廢話好啦!這些移工來幫忙的話根本動不了在高速啦、在恆春啦都一樣所以我們看的都很感動啦那當然勞動部這邊能配合的就要盡量來配合"},{"start":182.896,"end":195.213,"text":"能夠讓他們那個身份留在來的身份變成正常是應該的啦然後再來就是我們要提高他們的待遇事實上現在那些"},{"start":196.738,"end":212.143,"text":"逃跑的移工外勞他們的每天是忌日的。做一天就穿五、兩千、回到兩千多。所以他們比吃陶爐、吃粿仔還要高。那麼高,我們現在畢竟在採用基本工資。"},{"start":213.764,"end":227.699,"text":"兩、三萬塊對不對那一天就可以拿到一千五、兩千一個月就五、六萬跑不掉啊所以那寧可跑掉啊所以這個是很糟糕的事情部長你要限制你要看看怎麼做"},{"start":229.754,"end":257.679,"text":"這個我們持續在檢討不過說實在這些私領移工他雖然看起來零日薪蠻高但是他沒有任何他有風險啦然後也可能會被剝削然後也沒有社會保險勞健保什麼的其實說起來也是處境也是慷慮啦所以我們都希望都是合法引進然後希望我們的雇主針對這些合法移工善待給他應有的合理的薪資這樣才能夠留住人"},{"start":258.92,"end":282.21,"text":"我看我們在高雄屏東這些產業如果做食品的做肉類的、魚類事實上他們對外籍外籍移工上面是很善待你要跟我講說會看到什麼什麼什麼林內霸林我告訴你我在這邊贊重講我沒有看到而且還會塞一些一些摩納斯給他們因為他們"},{"start":283.976,"end":286.018,"text":"我們現在的移工最主要來自"},{"start":300.715,"end":304.297,"text":"菲律賓、印尼、越南還有泰國。所以你現在就是要引進印度的移工。那我們初期是要引進多少人?"},{"start":318.364,"end":336.802,"text":"人數還沒有確定因為我們要看各產業的需求我們要目的世界主管機關像經濟部、衛福部、農業部、內政部來討論說大概有多少需求然後再來決定我跟部長講事實上因為東南亞這些國家"},{"start":339.864,"end":343.008,"text":"印度的移工,印度因為是高加索的"},{"start":359.472,"end":360.594,"text":"那你要引進印度的移工進來"},{"start":375.132,"end":390.901,"text":"當然缺人啦吼那引進讓那個來源多元化但是你有沒有去想說他們的生活風險觀念跟我們不一樣吼那大家也對印度的還有很多的疑慮那勞動部這一塊是怎麼補強"},{"start":392.782,"end":410.357,"text":"你怎麼不能把它引進來就丟給仲介,仲介沒有能力,他沒有能力。對啦,包委員所以我們其實也會透過的召開諮詢的會議讓社會大家各個團體專家學者來參與對話,讓大家對印度的部分提出給我們一些"},{"start":412.038,"end":439.372,"text":"希望我們再來做一些更怎麼樣的規劃讓大家能夠來對印度更瞭解然後在對於印度的移工的數值的部分能夠予以來肯定有信心這個部分我們會持續的召開會議也會透過各種方式來讓我們人民眾能夠瞭解這個要加強因為印度那個國際上一些風評習性風評不太好"},{"start":441.513,"end":461.768,"text":"但是不會的,報告委員,其實大概全世界的印度移工有1800萬分布在各個世界各國那白頂的部分在台灣就有2700多人在這裡其實印度移工的數字在世界各國都蠻受肯定的你現在日本去年已經跟他簽MOU,現在韓國也在談"},{"start":464.35,"end":490.041,"text":"我們是第二個跟他簽的然後所以這部分我覺得大概但是大家所關心的、擔心的我們都會去化解大家疑慮透過對話你要兩方調適那進來這邊我不能把它丟給一些仲介業者去在磨合的時候我就覺得這個是很危險的這個部分我們會加強還有你們跟印度談MOU"},{"start":492.642,"end":493.483,"text":"委員這種MOU在"},{"start":512.901,"end":533.873,"text":"就是程序完成之前都是保密的我們也不是只有針對印度之前引進之前4個國家都是這樣還有其他我們各部會跟人家簽MOU也是都這樣完成之後行政院自然就是會公布啦所以沒有只有比較特別而且它只是一個大原則而已我一看它條文就很簡單我看你13條"},{"start":536.995,"end":550.312,"text":"13條嘛那是一個原則就是說大家一個意向書把大原則先談定下來後面的工作成績會議才是重點那才會有實質內容出來我看印度很少提到台灣很少幫台灣講話所以我們這樣一頭熱會幫印度當台灣講話只有印度神統"},{"start":555.936,"end":556.136,"text":"中國大陸將近"},{"start":580.698,"end":602.872,"text":"所以這兩個國家加起來占全世界學名要的原料要供應將近80%那印度的那個原料要的原料跟原始的原料還跟中國大陸拿所以這個整個都是卡死所以美國說要修理中國大陸原料不給他我看他抗生素第二代第三都沒有要"},{"start":604.028,"end":619.834,"text":"所以講那個事情都是錯綜複雜,沒想到想那麼簡單。那勞動部這一塊,已經外國移工,因為現在只有來英國越來越少,所以我們還是要廣、廣要。緬甸我有去談過緬甸,後來沒有簽嘛,可以再加強這一塊,他們也很喜歡來。"},{"start":626.856,"end":636.745,"text":"現在他們,緬甸我也覺得很可惜,其實我們勞動部之前已經談到某個那個了,但是沒有辦法。我在第8屆的時候我還要去跟他們農業部,當然是我們這邊農委會請我去巡視啦。"},{"start":642.33,"end":644.431,"text":"我們其實不放棄啦,就過去談了後來促交,就不放棄啦,我們會透..."},{"start":672.179,"end":673.142,"text":"持續通過外交部來評估．"}]}},{"id":"151739","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151739","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15eee26d8646aef285e44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed03b67dac7242888a95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:37:10 - 10:44:00","影片長度":"00:06:50","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-17"},"duration":410,"end_time":"2024-04-25T10:44:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T10:37:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":453,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時37分）有請周秘書長還有資訊處處長。"],["主席：請周秘書長跟資訊處處長。"],["周秘書長萬來：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：你好。資訊處的我最後問，所以前面可以先休息一下。我知道周秘書長針對這些事情，有很多必須謹守中立的原則，所以有一些問題我只能問一個大概。我們今天好不容易可能可以進入逐條，之前要逐條的過程當中一直沒有辦法進去，我終於知道為什麼，顯然……我坐在這邊才短短1個小時，造謠的造謠，法律搞不清楚的法律搞不清楚，資安搞不清楚的搞不清楚，這種狀況太多了，我現在才發現原來不進入逐條可能最主要的原因在這裡。","第一個我先提到散會這件事情，假設打籃球、比賽到一半，裁判直接宣布6比0，這樣的球賽打不下去，這也是為什麼那時候民進黨提出散會這件事情。但是後來國民黨提出散會是什麼原因？是打球打到一半自己說不打了，我要走掉了，不管怎麼做，他們的重點都只是要讓會議沒有辦法往下進行。剛剛羅智強委員一直說我們走掉，不讓這個散會繼續是獨裁，他自己沒有搞清楚到底什麼才叫獨裁，不進入逐條、不進入討論，然後回去剪抖音影片，這完全不是國會議事堂應該做的事情，直接做a答b很顯然是他的專長。","第二個，關於說謊這件事情，也就是藐視國會，雖然不在今天的討論裡面，但是我剛剛聽到羅委員一直提到2016年的版本，說我們並沒有把說謊納進來，那就是因為前面調查權的範圍不夠限縮，也不夠明確，我們根本搞不清楚說謊的定義在哪裡，所以只好先不把它放進去。這就連結到像剛剛黃國昌委員提到的，他說今天是機關跟機構，為什麼不直接處罰人，要處罰機關跟機構？道理很簡單，因為如果在質詢的時候，機關跟機構造假，造假的人不一定是站在那邊講話的人，他可能只是被推出來的，就好像那一天吳宗憲委員被推出來之後，只好把會議進行很快速的run過去，背後是傅崐萁。我們真正應該讓機關、機構負責，讓他們把真正的行為人找出來，這才是處罰最好的方式。我一直都認為他並沒有瞭解到底進行的方式是什麼，他只想要讓站在那一邊的官員能夠被「釘」，能夠被處罰，到時候再剪成影片。像我們剛剛前面提的散會，他不斷地把我們提出散會申請這件事情剪成短影片，然後介紹給大家，說我們民進黨是怎麼樣干擾，這完全是錯誤的資訊。","接下來我還要提到，我還是要肯定黃國昌委員一點，他剛剛提到有人把中國的資金、詐騙什麼帶進來，我不知道黃國昌委員原來那麼想要管制去中國這件事情，這叫風險管控。為什麼中國的詐騙集團能夠進來？就是因為這些人能夠接觸。如果有人跟中國的黨政軍、詐騙集團接觸，這個要不要控管？這個風險很高。我提出一個法案，說這個要控管，為什麼國民黨跟民眾黨在程序委員會就要直接把這個封殺掉？剛剛不是說很關心這個問題嗎？這個是不分黨派的，又不是只有規範國民黨的委員跟民眾黨的委員？民進黨的委員一樣要受到規範，不是嗎？一個那麼重要的規範、一個高風險管控的規範，為什麼能夠在程序委員會就把它擋下來？這個不合理，所以我想問一下秘書長，現在在程序委員會直接把這個法案拿掉，會不會讓我們以後都沒有辦法提案？"],["周秘書長萬來：提案權並沒有受影響，程序委員會把這個法案暫緩，以前程序委員會的例子很多，有前例在，像一個法案送到院會被退回程序委員會。這裡面的例……"],["沈委員伯洋：對，但是我們現在是報告事項被拿走。"],["周秘書長萬來：我瞭解，暫緩的例子以前……我離開九年多，以前在程序委員會確實有暫緩的……"],["沈委員伯洋：有五千多次。"],["周秘書長萬來：有這一個例子，我是跟沈委員這樣報告。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，謝謝秘書長。我最後問一下資安處，現在我們提到它跟資訊安全有關，非常重要的一點是因為IT跟資安。現在外面的大公司比較喜歡分開，很大的原因是因為IT，譬如說它委託某一家公司幫忙，這一家公司如果同時做資安的話，反而會形成資安的漏洞，所以會希望能夠把它拆開，至於拆開到底要放在同一個地方，還是要分成兩個處？這都可以討論，很明顯的是，這一定會有人力需求，所以我們在後面有特別強調人力需求這件事情。接下來想要問的是，如果依照現在資訊安全處的這個判斷，你們比較希望把資安放在這裡面，並擴充人力，兩邊如果有合作的廠商要分開，還是要把它直接獨立出來變成一個處？怎樣對你們來講比較方便或者比較好做？"],["鄭處長輝彬：整個機制目前的話，像銀行就是把它切開；政府機關大部分是把整個資安跟資訊合在一起，然後成立獨立的一個科。不過我們資訊處的角色，當然成立處、成立科或是維持現狀，目前還是尊重委員整個合議的結果，我們可以配合委員合議的結果，做相關工作的調整跟整個任務的分派。"],["沈委員伯洋：好，沒有問題，這兩個方向應該都可行，重點是它必須要獨立，因為資安如果跟IT混在一起，會造成很大的資安上的問題。","非本委員會是5分鐘，對不對？好，那我先講到這邊。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員，謝謝秘書長。","接下來有請吳委員思瑤發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-17","speakers":["鍾佳濱","范雲","羅智強","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林思銘","吳思瑤","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員高金素梅等\n23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條\n之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案；三、繼續審查\n( 一) 民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」\n案、( 二) 委員賴瑞隆等16 人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草\n案」案；四、(一)繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審\n查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」\n案、( 四 ) 繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kaaw 等19 人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(五)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)審查\n委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133401_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.429718750000003,"end":20.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.95159375,"end":22.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.74471875,"end":22.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.58846875,"end":31.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.59159375,"end":31.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.14409375,"end":50.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.70659375,"end":73.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.53846875,"end":75.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.68159375,"end":79.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.66409375,"end":85.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.57034375,"end":90.22784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.70034375,"end":149.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.98221875000002,"end":216.04784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.31784375,"end":223.99596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.33346875,"end":229.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.31159375000001,"end":230.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.21846875000003,"end":238.89659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.98096875000002,"end":242.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.14909375000002,"end":267.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.75284375,"end":305.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.79159375,"end":291.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.58034375,"end":292.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.71784375000004,"end":304.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.46846875,"end":360.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.03346875,"end":392.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.17221875,"end":402.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.88784375,"end":405.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.07721875000004,"end":408.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.13159375000004,"end":409.97534375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":0.389,"text":"請周秘書長跟資訊處處長"},{"start":22.323,"end":49.757,"text":"三位好你好資訊處的我最後問所以前面可以先休息一下我知道周秘書長其實針對這些事情很多事你必須也是謹守中立的原則所以有一些問題我大概只是問一個大概我現在因為我們今天好不容易可能可以進入竹條我們之前在要做竹條的過程當中一直沒有辦法進去我今天終於知道為什麼了為什麼因為"},{"start":51.077,"end":78.896,"text":"顯然要嘛就是我才短短坐在這邊一個小時造謠的造謠法律搞不清楚的法律搞不清楚資安搞不清楚的搞不清楚這種狀況太多了所以我現在才發現原來不進入主條可能最主要的原因是在於這裡第一個我先提到就是上會這件事情像假設我們今天打籃球打比賽打到一半裁判直接宣布6比0那這樣的球賽打不下去所以這也是為什麼那時候民進黨提出上會這件事情"},{"start":79.716,"end":96.131,"text":"但是後來國民黨提出散會是什麼是今天打球打到一半他們自己說我不打了我要走掉了所以他們不管怎麼做他們的重點都只是要讓會議沒有辦法往下進行所以剛剛這個羅志強委員一直在講說我們這個什麼走掉我們今天不讓這個散會繼續是獨裁"},{"start":97.853,"end":126.058,"text":"他自己沒有搞清楚到底什麼才叫做獨裁不進入主條、不進入討論然後回去剪抖音影片這完全不是一個國會議事堂我們應該做的事情直接做A答B很顯然是他的專長第二個就是關於說謊這件事情也就是藐視國會藐視國會雖然不在今天的討論裡面但是我剛剛聽到羅委員一直提到2016年的版本說我今天並沒有把說謊拉近那就是因為前面調查權的範圍不夠"},{"start":127.418,"end":128.399,"text":"條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":150.114,"end":174.008,"text":"造假的人不一定是站在那邊講話的那一個人他可能只是被推出來的嘛就好像那天吳宗憲委員被推出來之後結果只好把這個會議的進行很快速的亂過去這背後是傅坤祺嘛所以我們真正應該是要讓機關機構來負責然後讓他們去把真正的行為人找出來這才是處罰的最好的方式嘛"},{"start":174.688,"end":196.587,"text":"所以我一直都認為說就是他並沒有去了解我們現在到底進行的方式是什麼他只想要讓站在那一邊的那個官員能夠被定能夠被處罰然後到時候再剪成影片然後呢像我們剛剛前面提的散會的不斷的把我們提出散會申請這件事情剪成短影片然後介紹給大家說我們民進黨是怎麼樣的干擾這完全是錯誤的資訊"},{"start":198.408,"end":215.654,"text":"然後接下來我還要提到但是我還是要肯定黃國昌委員一點就是他剛剛提到就是剛剛我們他說有這個人他這個把中國的這個資金詐騙什麼帶進來啊所以原來我不知道原來黃國昌委員那麼的想要去管制去中國這件事情"},{"start":216.634,"end":240.967,"text":"這就是這叫風險管控嘛為什麼今天詐騙集團能夠進來中國的詐騙集團能夠進來就是因為這些人能夠接觸啊所以如果今天有人跟中國的黨政軍跟詐騙集團有接觸這個要不要控管這個風險很高嘛欸那我提出了一個法案說這個要控管那為什麼民國民黨跟民眾黨在程序委員會就要直接把這個封殺掉剛剛不是說很關心這個問題嗎這個是不分黨派的啊"},{"start":243.468,"end":266.776,"text":"這個又不是只有規範國民黨的委員跟民眾黨的委員民進黨的委員一樣要受到規範不是嗎所以一個那麼重要的規範一個高風險管控的規範為什麼能夠在程序委員會就把他擋下來這個不合理嘛所以我想問一下秘書長就是我們現在在程序委員會直接把這個法案拿掉這樣會不會讓我們以後都沒有辦法做提案"},{"start":269.44,"end":274.281,"text":"提案權並沒有受影響,程序委員會把法案暫緩。"},{"start":284.105,"end":287.486,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條"},{"start":311.135,"end":311.595,"text":"條文修正草案"},{"start":332.33,"end":360.713,"text":"還是說要分成兩個處我覺得這都可以討論但很明顯的是這一定會有人力的需求所以我們在後面有特別去強調就是說人力需求這件事情那接下來呢想要問的就是如果依照現在資訊安全處的判斷你們是比較希望還是把資安放在這個裡面那人力擴充然後讓他們兩邊如果有合作的這個廠商他要分開還是說要把他直接獨立出來變成一個處怎樣對你們來講是比較方便的或者說比較好做的"},{"start":362.499,"end":391.859,"text":"報告委員那個因為整個機制的話根據目前的話像銀行部分的話他就是把它切開嘛好像目前政府機關的話大部分是把整個資安跟資訊是合在一起然後把它成立獨立的科啦不然我們資訊處的角色的話當然成立處或成立科或是維持現狀的話我們目前的話還是尊重委員整個合意的結果我們可以配合委員合意的結果的話來做相關工作的一個調整跟跟整個任務的一個分派"},{"start":392.62,"end":392.88,"text":"條文宣告"}]}},{"id":"151738","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151738","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15732e7d4ed684cc9720df1bb4ac2af973c68e374cd8c4bed0074e07e10f7c46125ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"10:28:39 - 10:40:50","影片長度":"00:12:11","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":731,"end_time":"2024-04-25T10:40:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T10:28:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":445,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（10時28分）謝謝主席，請文化部次長。"],["主席：請王次長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：次長好。我們臺灣的變裝皇后Nymphia（妮妃雅）在世界國際的RuPaul's比賽中奪冠，是史上的第一人，也打破了這個節目13季以來的亞洲魔咒，我們小英總統第一時間也到社群平台上去給他祝賀，其中就提到變裝皇后是一個非常不容易的藝術，恭喜他的成就以及勇敢做自己，文化部的臉書也發表了一篇文章。現在最新傳出的消息是文化部今年有參與巴黎文化奧運，我們有一個臺灣館嘛，也會邀請妮妃雅到現場去演出嗎？目前的規劃是怎麼樣？"],["王次長時思：是，因為這一次巴黎奧運有一個文化奧運的項目，臺灣也有參與，所以我們邀請了非常多的團體，我們邀請了22個團體、超過120人進行現場的演出，其中一位就是妮妃雅。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，其實對於臺灣的文化藝術表演團體能夠出海，能夠在國際舞臺上面讓更多人看見，我想這對於我們臺灣本土文化界來說是一個非常重要的舞臺。請問今年的巴黎文化奧運總共有幾個國家的場館，目前接洽籌備的進度及過程是怎麼樣？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，巴黎奧運中所謂文化奧運的部分是這一次巴黎奧運單獨發起的，在整個法國裡面其實是一個大的完整計畫，在法國七百多個城市裡面推出2,500項的計畫，在巴黎這裡比較特殊的是會有一個拉維特園區，這個園區會有獨立的邀請，透過園區的邀請讓各個不同國家在這邊進行文化性的交流跟演出，臺灣因為是受邀的單位之一，所以在這個園區裡面我們也會有一個臺灣館的位置存在。這個園區目前只邀請了十幾個國家，因為是由拉維特園區的總監親自來到臺灣勘查之後、訪視之後決定要不要邀請，所以臺灣算是在這十幾個國家裡面比較少數受邀請進駐這個園區的，因為這個園區是在場館跟奧運選手宿舍之間必經的一個位置，大家也覺得能夠在這裡演出會讓整個世界或者是讓來參加奧運的選手都有機會可以看到。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以只有十幾個國家受到邀請，而臺灣是其中之一？"],["王次長時思：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：那文化部有沒有去場勘過？"],["王次長時思：有。"],["吳委員沛憶：現場有什麼樣的硬體規劃？目前已經在籌備要一起參與巴黎文化奧運的這些臺灣團體，你們在邀請的時候是用什麼樣的概念去邀請的？你們希望帶什麼樣的臺灣文化到這個舞臺上面讓世界看到？"],["王次長時思：非常謝謝委員的關心，到目前其實部長跟我都親自去做過場勘，在現場我們希望呈現的就是很原汁原味的臺灣，所以在整個舞臺的呈現上跟表演上，我們的發想是電子花車，就是整個樣子很像是在臺灣廟埕前面……"],["吳委員沛憶：我們把電子花車運過去嗎？"],["王次長時思：我本來很想運，但是會觸犯到他們的法規，因為會變成進口車輛，所以後來沒有運，但我們透過設計，讓現場呈現出在臺灣廟埕前電子花車展開演出的樣子，就是我們大家最熟悉的，一輛很厲害像機器人一樣的電子花車一旦打開之後那樣的演出。","在整個演出的主題上，我們大概分成四項比較大的主題，第一個當然就是「自由之聲」，希望大家看見臺灣因為自由民主而有的多元；另外是「島嶼風華」，就是以臺灣的風土來做介紹，也包括臺灣的傳統跟當代藝術；至於「當代新藝」就是做跨界的混合，我們希望透過戲曲新編，把不同的戲曲種類重新編製，尤其是將傳統戲曲做新式的演出；最後就是「世界共融」，就是像妮妃雅這樣，就是我們現在已經沒有國界的、被世界所注視到的這些表演內容的項目，大概以這四大概念下去做規劃，所以邀請的團體超過20個團體，目前大概有22個團體、123位表演者會跟我們出去，所以包括樂團、舞團、戲劇、DJ，然後變裝皇后這一類的演出，都會在臺灣館的舞臺上看到。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，我想法國用國家的力量來投入文化奧運，除了藝術交流的本身就有其非常重要、高貴的價值以外，這也是一個很好的文化外交，所以我們其實也非常的謝謝妮妃雅，因為他在整個比賽過程當中多次提到他很希望能夠透過自己的表現讓世界看見臺灣的文化，以及看見臺灣珍貴的民主自由的價值，所以他在領獎的時候說「Taiwan, this is for you」，他把這個獎項獻給臺灣。但是我們要怎麼樣去孕育更多我們本土的藝術家，每一個藝術家在走上國際舞臺、在成為臺灣之光之前，都有一個很長期培養、奮鬥的過程，我們政府千萬不可以等到他已經是臺灣之光了，才要去沾人家的光……"],["王次長時思：我們早就邀請了。"],["吳委員沛憶：沒有錯，我們的政府應該是孵育人才很重要的一個後盾，妮妃雅過去在臺灣當本土變裝皇后已經有5年多的時間，最早的發跡起源地就是在我的選區西門町的紅樓，臺灣的變裝皇后文化起源就是在西門町，像紅樓的Dalida就是最早，他們說是我們臺灣變裝皇后的娘家，然後後續也有新興很多的表演空間，所以我想除了這個藝術之外，其實臺灣有非常多很珍貴的表演藝術者，都需要由政府來支持他們，特別是這些新興的表演藝術。","我注意到文化部有一個臺灣品牌團隊計畫，已經進行了10年多了，這個計畫也支持了非常多臺灣重要的表藝團體，不過我希望我們能夠有一個持續支持新興表演藝術的相應計畫，因為過去我們這個臺灣品牌團隊計畫，我看到長期以來是比較集中在幾個類型的表演藝術，像這一次我們帶團體到巴黎的文化奧運去演出，我覺得也就是一個很好的嘗試，給予他們一個舞臺，但是平常的、長期的培育，我想也是非常的重要，這個部分我希望文化部可以一起來支持。"],["王次長時思：是，跟委員說明，其實不是只有品牌計畫而已，還包括在表藝的範圍裡面，我們也有針對表藝的計畫，也有特別扶植所謂青壯世代的計畫，我想現在也有很多案子在開展跟徵求。特別提到的是這一次去巴黎文化奧運的這個計畫，我們其實就是看出了這個世代的差異，就是說我們希望在每個世代，臺灣都有可以站在國際舞臺上面的團體，所以委員可以看得到我們在這次邀請的團體上，其實是一個新世代的演出，所以才會有變裝皇后、有DJ，包括現代跟傳統的混合型演出，這一類的演出其實就是在臺灣現在世代的演出，所以委員剛剛提到的，針對不同的世代跟不同的表演類型來做，不管是補助也好，推動也好，或者是到國際上去表演也好，我們其實有透過不同的計畫在進行，這一點我們也會持續來推動跟改善。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，臺灣品牌的出海，我們走進國際市場，或者是我們引入國際資源，這個也是我們現在在推動兒少台、兒少節目內容很重要的一點嘛，所以在你們報告當中也有提到，除了文化部，文策院也有支持我們本土的這些兒少節目的內容，例如動畫的產出，希望能夠有機會出海跟國際來連結。我現在看到目前我們兒少台的目標是時數從326個小時要增加到362個小時的節目，然後黑潮計畫要投注6億，但是這樣的預算規模，我們如果跟幾個其他國家相比來說，以我們公共電視台的總預算，我們先不講這6億，以總預算來講，我們這個規模其實差距仍然是相當之大。例如英國BBC一年投入在公共電視台的經費是二千多億臺幣；日本NHK一年大概是七千億日圓，大約是二千億臺幣，是我們公視的110倍；以韓國來說，韓國大概也有臺灣的將近20倍。所以雖然我們現在黑潮計畫多投入了6億，這個很重要，但仍然是一個很困難的挑戰。在我們的節目製作裡面，我看下來，我們其實有兩個策略，一個是本土自製，一個是借助國際上知名的IP，一個是我們自製，一個是借力使力。例如我看到我們公視有臺語台嘛，像現在有幾個動畫，比方說「間諜家家酒」我們也有做臺語的配音，所以網路上面很多人在傳說「安妮亞嘛佮意食土豆」，有很多人在傳喔，這個也是一個傳播文化的力量。我們目前的策略是本土自製跟借力使力來運用跟國際知名IP的合作，請問我們有沒有一個比例上的調配？例如在時數上面，我們自己有沒有一個相關的規劃？"],["王次長時思：我想公視會有一個時數比例的規劃，不過整體來說，其實臺灣現在在兒少影視音的產製上，整體量能是不足的，也就是說，與其去談時數比例的規劃，不如先增強整體的量能，因為不管是哪一種，其實它的量能都是不足的。我們比較期待的是，除了自製、委製，同時也透過孵育跟民間來合作，提高臺灣本土自己自製的量，包括跟臺灣自己的IP來做合作，讓這些IP可以成為臺灣動畫或者是戲劇的一部分。另外，在國際的部分，對於現在已經受到歡迎的動畫，在短時間之內我們很難有這麼高質量跟長集數的動畫來做替代，所以我們就先讓它使用臺語發音，至少可以讓大家熟悉如果在臺灣的文化脈絡裡面跟語言裡面，我們至少可以做出自己的兒少影視音的產品，目前的規劃是這樣。如果是公視比例上的規劃，我想可以請公視會後再提供給委員做參考。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，因為不管是本土自製還是跟國際IP合作，剛剛次長講到人才，這是最重要的根本，因為我們必須要有人才，這個產業才有辦法長期發展，所以我希望不管是文化部還是文策院的相關計畫，人才培育一定都是非常重要的重點。"],["王次長時思：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：最後是一個建議，因為文化部有關兒童相關的業務，除了我們現在講的公共電視台小公視以外，國家兒童未來館也在籌備當中，我們有很多表演藝術工作者專門是兒童劇團，甚至例如各縣市政府，我們臺北市每一個行政區也都有兒童館，我覺得我們應該要有一個整體的相關布局跟規劃，例如在我們自己的場館裡面，是不是可以多放公視製播的兒童節目內容，這部分希望文化部能夠跟地方政府進行盤點，讓我們花了這麼多資源籌備出來的內容被看見。"],["王次長時思：這個我們來進行規劃，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳沛憶委員，次長請回。","接下來請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","葉元之","陳培瑜","何欣純","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","范雲","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","林月琴","陳冠廷","羅智強"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫─ 公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.177843750000001,"end":7.422218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.012843750000002,"end":8.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.02971875,"end":8.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.04659375,"end":8.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.09721875,"end":8.265968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.29971875,"end":9.396593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.716593750000001,"end":58.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.688468750000006,"end":58.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.97534375,"end":60.814718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.20284375000001,"end":73.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.04471875,"end":98.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.96909375,"end":158.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.20034375,"end":183.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.81534375,"end":165.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.59721875000002,"end":200.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.02096875,"end":201.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.18096875,"end":233.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.51346875000002,"end":276.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.88221875,"end":420.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.81909375000004,"end":331.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.97784375000003,"end":476.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.73284375000003,"end":565.9340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.2490937499999,"end":521.6709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.55846875,"end":596.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":570.5747187500001,"end":571.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.63221875,"end":580.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.40596875,"end":606.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.1597187500001,"end":669.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.68159375,"end":675.1997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":675.3347187500001,"end":727.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.7803437500002,"end":686.9953437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":687.48471875,"end":688.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":727.0734687500001,"end":729.0984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":728.40659375,"end":729.1828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":730.6172187500001,"end":730.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":730.97159375,"end":731.5959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":731.5959687500001,"end":731.6128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":731.6128437500001,"end":731.6297187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":731.6297187499999,"end":731.8828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":731.8828437500001,"end":731.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":731.96721875,"end":732.20346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.547,"end":8.923,"text":"謝謝主席,我請文化部次長好,請王次長"},{"start":13.755,"end":17.278,"text":"委員好 次長好 我們台灣的變裝皇后尼菲亞尼菲亞在我們這個世界國際的RuPaul這個比賽當中奪冠那是史上的第一人也打破了這個節目13季以來的這個亞洲魔咒那我們小英總統第一時間也到社群台上面去給她祝賀"},{"start":35.652,"end":52.627,"text":"其中就提到說變裝皇后這是一個非常不容易的藝術恭喜她的成就以及勇敢的做自己那文化部的臉書也發表了一篇文章那現在最新的消息是傳出我們文化部因為今年有參與巴黎的文化奧運我們有一個台灣館也會邀請尼菲亞來到現場去演出嗎目前的規劃是怎麼樣"},{"start":58.812,"end":73.455,"text":"是,因為我們這一次巴黎的這個奧運有一個文化奧運的項目那台灣也有參與那所以呢我們也有邀請了非常多的團體我們邀請了22個團體,超過120個人進行現場的演出那其中呢有一個位就是尼菲亞"},{"start":74.196,"end":78.037,"text":"其實對於台灣的文化藝術表演團體能夠出海能夠在國際的舞台上面讓更多人看見我想這是對我們台灣的本土文化界來說是一個非常重要的一個舞台那今年的巴黎文化奧運它總共是有幾個國家的場館那整個目前接洽籌備的進度過程是怎麼樣"},{"start":98.064,"end":98.084,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":118.195,"end":118.235,"text":"﹚吳沛憶﹚吳沛憶"},{"start":148.039,"end":148.059,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":169.249,"end":169.269,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":183.612,"end":183.792,"text":"有馬電子花車運過去嗎?"},{"start":201.363,"end":229.126,"text":"我本來很想運但是因為有觸犯到我們的法規因為會變成進口車輛所以後來沒有運但我們在透過設計讓現場呈現在台灣的廟城前電子花車展開演出的樣子就是我們大家最熟悉一輛很厲害像那個機器人一樣電子花車一旦打開之後的那樣的演出那在整個演出的主題上我們大概分成四項比較大的主題第一個當然就是自由之神希望大家看見台灣因為自由民主而有的多元那另外就是島嶼風華就是以台灣的"},{"start":231.007,"end":231.387,"text":"以這四大概念下去做規劃﹖"},{"start":259.631,"end":276.165,"text":"所以邀請的團體超過20個團體目前大概22個團體大概123個人是表演者會跟我們出去所以包括樂團、舞團、戲劇DJ然後變裝皇后這一類的演出都會在台灣的舞台上看到"},{"start":277.289,"end":305.068,"text":"我想法國用國家的力量來投入文化奧運除了說藝術的交流本身就有其非常重要高貴的價值以外這也是一個很好的文化外交所以我們其實也非常的謝謝寧菲因為她在整個比賽的過程當中她多次提到說她很希望能夠透過她自己的表現讓世界看見台灣的文化以及看見台灣我們珍貴民主自由的價值"},{"start":305.888,"end":310.792,"text":"在領獎的時候他說台灣This is for you這個獎項獻給台灣但是我們要怎麼樣去孕育更多我們本土的藝術家每一個藝術家在走上國際的舞台在成為台灣之光之前都有一個很長期培養奮鬥的過程我們政府千萬不可以是他已經是台灣之光了我們才來去"},{"start":329.568,"end":329.588,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":352.975,"end":352.995,"text":"吳沛憶"},{"start":379.963,"end":385.145,"text":"已經進行了10年多了這個計畫也是支持了我們非常多臺灣重要的表藝團體不過我希望我們能夠要有一個持續的能夠來去支持新興的表演藝術這樣相應的計畫"},{"start":396.328,"end":405.736,"text":"因為我們過去的這個臺灣品牌團隊計畫我看長期以來它比較集中在幾個類型的表演藝術所以這部分我希望我們文化部像這一次我們帶團體到巴黎的文化奧運去演出我覺得也就是一個很好的嘗試給予他們一個舞台但是平常的長期的這個培育我想也是非常的重要這部分我希望文化部可以一起來支持"},{"start":421.109,"end":421.129,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":436.637,"end":436.657,"text":"吳沛憶議員"},{"start":460.947,"end":476.783,"text":" ﹝討論﹞"},{"start":476.843,"end":484.166,"text":"是台灣品牌的出海我們走進國際市場或者是我們來引入國際資源這個也是我們現在在推動我們的兒少台兒少節目兒少節目內容很重要的一點所以在你們報告當中也有提到說除了文化部文策院也有來支持我們本土的這些兒少節目的內容例如說動畫的產出希望能夠有機會來出海跟國際來連結但我現在看到我們目前"},{"start":505.234,"end":508.016,"text":"我們的這個兒少台我們的目標是時數從326個小時要增加到362個小時的節目然後黑潮計畫要投注6億但是這樣的預算規模我們如果跟幾個其他國家比起來來說以這個我們公共電視台的總預算我們先不講這6億總預算來講我們這個規模其實差距仍然是相當之大"},{"start":530.529,"end":536.372,"text":"例如說英國的BBC一年的經費投入在公共電視台的投入是2000多億台幣那日本的NHK是等於一年大概是7000億的日元也大概是2000億的台幣這是我們公視的110倍以韓國來說"},{"start":548.038,"end":565.556,"text":"韓國大概也有台灣的將近要20倍所以雖然我們現在黑潮計畫多投入了6億這個很重要但仍然是一個很困難的挑戰所以說在我們的這個節目製作裡面我看下來我們其實有兩個策略一個是本土自治"},{"start":566.656,"end":566.676,"text":" ﹝講解﹞"},{"start":596.736,"end":600.398,"text":"我想公視會有一個時數比例的一個規劃不過整體來說其實台灣在現在兒少女適應的產制上來說是整體的量能不足"},{"start":617.445,"end":641.944,"text":"與其說談到時數比例的規劃部說先增強整體的量能因為不管是哪一種其他的量能都是不足的我們比較期待的是除了自製、偽製同時也透過富裕跟民間來合作提高台灣本土自己自製的量包括跟台灣自己的IP來做合作讓這些IP可以成為台灣動畫或者是戲劇的一部分那另外在國際的部分在現在因為"},{"start":642.805,"end":645.066,"text":"目前的規劃是這樣那如果是公視的比例上的規劃我想可以請公視會後再提供給委員做參考"},{"start":669.741,"end":694.395,"text":"好 因為不管是本土自治還是跟國際IP合作就剛剛次長講到人才就都是最重要的根本因為我們有人才我們這個產業才有辦法長期的發展所以我希望不管是文化部還是我們文策院相關的計畫人才的培育一定都是我們非常重要的重點那最後是一個建議因為我們文化部有關兒童相關的業務除了我們現在講的公共電視台小公視以外"},{"start":696.576,"end":702.519,"text":"我們有國家兒童未來館也在籌備當中我們有很多表演藝術工作者專門是兒童劇團甚至例如說各縣市政府我們台北市每一個行政區也都有兒童館我覺得我們應該有一個整體相關的布局跟規劃例如說在我們自己的場館裡面"},{"start":714.645,"end":714.665,"text":"謝謝吳沛憶"}]}},{"id":"151737","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151737","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce154813324f00bc48c8c97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed0bb154bd235cb03bd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"10:25:19 - 10:37:45","影片長度":"00:12:26","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":746,"end_time":"2024-04-25T10:37:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T10:25:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":549,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（10時25分）謝謝主席，有請許部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好，剛剛透過很多委員的質詢，還有我們從社會大眾得到的訊息，真的很恭喜部長過去這六年多來對於臺灣，不管是在促進勞動環境的進步，或者是對於我們國家競爭力的提升，真的是貢獻良多。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["王委員正旭：相信這樣的肯定，希望未來部長也有機會持續的替社會做一些事情，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員。"],["王委員正旭：不過，我想大家還是很關心國內勞動缺工的成因，以及有沒有更好的方式來解決，這個是我們可以繼續努力的，我也利用這個機會來請教一下部長，我們知道第一季的缺工相對嚴重，五大業別的人力需求都非常非常的高，現在是第二季，針對首季嚴重缺工以後所做的努力，跟原先我們預期要達成的目標有沒有相對的成績，可以讓我們來多瞭解？再來，我們有沒有根據第一季處理的情形要做哪一些的修正或者是改變？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，解決缺工的問題有很多的對策，我們都會優先媒合國人的就業，針對產業的需求來處理，現在我們的重點都會先擺在剛畢業的青年、二度就業婦女，還有中壯世代，我們叫壯世代的就業、重返職場，我們都有一些計畫，大部分的計畫都是三年期。我記得去年第二期上路，我們推介就業的已經有20萬人，然後我們的失業率也降到8.01%，所以是有顯著的效果出來。另外就是婦女的二度就業，我們也有三年的計畫在做一些協助。今年壯世代的計畫剛上路，也希望能夠在這三年內增加30萬的人力到我們的就業市場來。所以改善缺工都是持續在推進的，都需要一段時間，可能要整個年度來看比較準，就是有沒有讓缺工問題獲得有效的解決。"],["王委員正旭：所以，如果一季一季看是相對時間太短，看不出這個服務的變化。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["王委員正旭：第二個需求量多的就是住宿跟餐飲業，我們也知道，0403花蓮發生了大地震，我不曉得怎麼去評估這個地震對於這種需求的影響，因為我們也看到媒體說，目前對花蓮的影響是蠻明顯的，這部分不曉得部裡有沒有針對這個特殊事件，採取哪些因應作為？"],["許部長銘春：我們現在就有一個專案小組，就是發展署北分署，針對花蓮採取了七大措施來做一些協助，包括就業的協助、零工的需求，我們都是第一時間跟他們有需求的單位聯繫，馬上盤點人數，馬上推介上工，希望能夠儘速解決。但是因為現在當地的觀光受創，目前有兩家大量解僱，這些人力，說實在的如果一下子要轉業，是到別的縣市去，他也不容易啦，所以我們就是就地來安置，找工作機會給他，所以這個部分我們都有持續在做一些對策的研擬，然後希望能夠達到協助的效果。"],["王委員正旭：如果當地的產業剛好也有需求，那釋放出來的人力可以互相的去運用的話，就需要部裡多予協助。"],["許部長銘春：像我們也協助鳳凰創業貸款的很多單位行銷，行銷全臺灣，請好朋友、善心人士來支持、來採購，國人沒辦法去那邊旅遊，但是可以用網購來支持他們的產業。"],["王委員正旭：如果有初步的成效，也能夠讓大眾多瞭解。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["王委員正旭：我們還是很想要知道國內缺工的成因，專家學者也做了相關分析，有六大成因會造成國內缺工，包括共享經濟出現了一些變化，還有低薪，薪資待遇不符合期待等等，最後一項是關於企業沒有聘用中高齡勞工。我比較好奇的是企業不聘用中高齡勞工的可能因素，還有我們在制定政策的時候可以做哪一些因應？如果從政策方向來看的話其實就是三大項，一個是勞動力供給不足，一個是工作條件不具吸引力，以及學用落差與技能不合。如果以企業沒有聘用中高齡勞工來看，到底是他的工作條件、環境不具吸引力，還是因為他本身屆齡以後，學用落差造成技術不合而引起這些問題？在政策的處理部分，希望能夠創造友善職場，提供產學雙贏的一些好作法。不知道除了目前的政策方向以外，在執行上有沒有比較能夠讓我們看到的一些數據或者是改善？"],["許部長銘春：這些成因裡面，我們的瞭解，其實薪資待遇的部分占很大的因素、占很大比例，薪資真的還是偏低。還有像企業未聘用中高齡，可能環境不友善以外，很多雇主普遍存在有年齡歧視的問題，一看到是中高齡就覺得他體力各方面可能不足，其實在他的體力、體能等，或是他的專業技能需要再訓練，這個勞動部都可以處理，我們都有相關資源。像輔具，每個人一年有10萬塊，對於他工作改善有益的，我們有10萬的額度，他可以申請；如果專業或技能不足，我們也可以培訓，所以這個都沒有問題。主要是可能雇主在心態上，他沒有講出來，但很明顯的是看到銀髮族，可能就把他排在第二位了。","再來，薪資還是普遍偏低，因為現在是事求人，有更好的工作條件，人往高處爬，如果有好的薪資，他為什麼要來這裡？所以這也是所有企業主面對缺工的問題，可能要先看看，如果有好的這些壯世代，你也應該考慮運用，體能或者各方面、工作能力需要改善，勞動部可以支持、幫忙都沒有問題，但薪資部分的確是要再提升。"],["王委員正旭：是，所以我們很希望雇主能夠針對自己的需求，缺工的同時，也能夠改善他自己內部的環境，讓這些中高齡者有意願進到職場。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["王委員正旭：因為相較於世界各國，我們真的是相對落後很多。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["王委員正旭：以韓國跟日本為例，60歲以上在這些國家的就業率，60到64歲在臺灣只有40%，而在韓國會到65%、日本有75%，相對於他們是有一些……"],["許部長銘春：我們大概差韓國就差20%了。"],["王委員正旭：是。"],["許部長銘春：所以這邊還有很大的開發空間。"],["王委員正旭：是。"],["許部長銘春：我們現在也在努力，用「壯世代」代替「中高齡」、「高齡」，就是希望大家不要有年齡歧視，他們還是很優秀的。"],["王委員正旭：是。"],["許部長銘春：我們希望透過各種計畫讓勞參率能夠提升。"],["王委員正旭：是，那我們有沒有跟這些國家有哪一些交流，或者能夠掌握他們的一些……"],["許部長銘春：有，都有去考察過。"],["王委員正旭：都有，是。"],["許部長銘春：這幾年是因為疫情，不然以前都有考察，沒有的話我們也都會搜尋他們的相關資訊。"],["王委員正旭：是，希望我們有機會能夠繼續改善這一部分，這個補助、申請數，可能申請的人多，可是能夠媒合的人相對就不夠，這個希望能夠繼續努力。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["王委員正旭：最後請教怎麼搶人留才的這個問題，目前的移工人數相對是多的，看下面一項資料可以發現，有蠻多移工在臺灣，他們也根據一些規定能夠持續在臺灣貢獻其力量，比如如果移工在臺工作滿6年以上，就能夠做一些改變，繼續留在臺灣。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["王委員正旭：目前的社福移工，包括照護等有12萬人，可是只有1.5萬人願意申請留才的這個方案，這部分的問題是出在哪裡？如果他有這個條件留下來，也有意願留下來，為什麼他沒有辦法申請，是雇主的因素或者仲介？使得我們想要讓移工留下來但無法促成而有所成果。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們是每個月統計，每個月大概都有將近兩千人，分別是產業跟社福，合計大概兩千人。社福占了三分之二，社福比較多、轉任的比較多。因為這是8年計畫，到2030年，我們準備14萬，就是所有的移工留才久用部分是14萬，其實到現在都已經超標了，照理說上路還不到2年，一般來講我們大概希望一年一萬，還不到2年，現在已經兩萬五千多人，到3月底是遠遠超標，但申請會陸陸續續。"],["王委員正旭：好，很希望這樣的方案可以發揮作用。"],["許部長銘春：是，鼓勵留任。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王正旭委員發言。接下來請蘇清泉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6722187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.10096875,"end":12.180968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.26534375,"end":13.767218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.851593750000003,"end":15.235343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.15471875,"end":18.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.35284375,"end":47.820968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.53409375,"end":20.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.26534375,"end":39.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.41721875,"end":39.619718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.820968750000006,"end":48.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.02346875,"end":70.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.39534375000001,"end":100.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.56784375000001,"end":113.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.63346875,"end":120.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.07534375,"end":121.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.68284375,"end":124.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.82159375,"end":129.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.10346875000002,"end":130.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.72784375,"end":138.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.77721875,"end":140.68409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.80221875,"end":142.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.09721875,"end":147.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.26096875000002,"end":151.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.77096875,"end":154.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.11221875,"end":160.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.06909375,"end":162.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.46534375000002,"end":170.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.00846875000002,"end":171.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.49346875,"end":180.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.84659375,"end":184.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.84596875000003,"end":187.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.24221875,"end":187.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.05221875,"end":193.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.62096875,"end":200.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.98284375,"end":234.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.69971875000002,"end":203.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.23534375000003,"end":205.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.24534375000002,"end":221.70096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.40909375,"end":227.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.43784375,"end":231.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.03659375,"end":246.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.69284375,"end":256.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.71659375,"end":261.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.96471875000003,"end":273.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.36784375,"end":281.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.26534375,"end":293.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.53034375000004,"end":288.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.04034375000003,"end":291.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.84596875,"end":293.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.57159375000003,"end":301.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.82471875000005,"end":293.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.48221875,"end":299.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.63784375,"end":301.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.73909375,"end":314.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.21534375000005,"end":306.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.48096875000005,"end":306.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.63284375,"end":308.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.80971875,"end":309.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.41284375000004,"end":310.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.83034375,"end":328.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.85909375,"end":316.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.94346875,"end":317.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.89096875,"end":335.94471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.31221875,"end":333.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.04596875000004,"end":390.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.17034375000003,"end":377.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.07534375,"end":419.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.51971875000004,"end":409.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.02909375,"end":417.29909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.27346875,"end":419.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.01596875,"end":424.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.07846875,"end":429.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.65159375,"end":442.99971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.79909375000005,"end":431.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.91284375000004,"end":432.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.80659375000005,"end":436.84034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.30346875000004,"end":451.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.08784375000005,"end":446.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.80034375,"end":450.27284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.34846875000005,"end":461.27534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.79846875000004,"end":491.09346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.61659375000005,"end":464.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.83596875,"end":464.93721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.45971875000004,"end":469.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.71159375,"end":477.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.32971875000004,"end":492.84846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.10159375,"end":500.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.83971875000003,"end":494.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":495.29534375000003,"end":495.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.20596875,"end":501.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.30721875,"end":500.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.92721875,"end":522.4640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.52971875000003,"end":507.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.65909375,"end":517.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.6328437500001,"end":531.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.5690937500001,"end":525.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.42471875,"end":571.2834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.5122187500001,"end":565.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.1784687500001,"end":568.7522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.22471875,"end":572.8359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.63346875,"end":573.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.02159375,"end":582.5053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.45159375,"end":575.9072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.1553437499999,"end":581.2565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.47596875,"end":581.5265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.75846875,"end":593.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.13346875,"end":586.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.03534375,"end":600.9328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.42346875,"end":593.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.65909375,"end":600.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.6797187500001,"end":608.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.76721875,"end":688.5478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.86971875,"end":654.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":655.16909375,"end":655.4897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.3115937500002,"end":691.5009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.5009687500001,"end":691.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.9565937500001,"end":693.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":694.11659375,"end":702.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":702.5034687500001,"end":712.7803437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.3034687500001,"end":728.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":728.9128437500001,"end":732.3215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.82784375,"end":737.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":737.56971875,"end":743.8303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":738.24471875,"end":738.58221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":741.0122187500001,"end":743.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":744.74159375,"end":745.5515937499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":0.129,"text":"請徐部長"},{"start":18.171,"end":47.253,"text":"法務委員好部長好剛剛透過很多委員的諮詢、發言還有我們從社會大眾得到的訊息真的很恭喜部長過去這6年多來對於臺灣不管是在促進這個勞動環境的進步或者是對於我們國家競爭力的提升真的是貢獻良多相信這樣的肯定、希望未來部長也有機會持續的替社會做一些事情"},{"start":48.354,"end":69.473,"text":"謝謝委員不過我想大家還是很關心有關於這個國內勞動缺工的這個成因跟有沒有更好的方式來解決這個是我們可以繼續努力的那我再利用這個機會來請教一下部長那其實我們也知道第一季第一季的這個缺工是相對嚴重"},{"start":71.451,"end":100.006,"text":"五大業別的人力需求都非常非常的高那現在是第三季嘛應該是第二季所以針對於首季嚴重缺工以後的所做的努力跟原先我們預期要解決的目標有沒有一個相對的成績可以讓我們來多瞭解那再過來我們有沒有根據這個第一季處理的情形要做哪一些的修正或者是改變"},{"start":102.107,"end":120.502,"text":"其實報告委員解決缺工的問題其實很多的對策那其實我們都是會以優先媒合國人的就業來針對產業的需求來處理那現在我們其實重點都會先擺在這些青年"},{"start":122.403,"end":146.244,"text":"剛畢業的青年還有這個我們的這個二度就業婦女還有中高齡中壯世代我們叫壯世代的就業重返職場努力那我們都是有一些計畫我們大部分的計畫都是三年期三年期那你投資青年就業我記得去年我們去年第二期上路有我們去年的推介的就業已經20萬人"},{"start":148.525,"end":159.31,"text":"二十萬人然後我們的失業率降到8.01所以這個是有顯著的效果出來那另外就是我們的"},{"start":161.178,"end":185.649,"text":"父女的二度就業這個部分我們也是三年的計畫在做一些協助包括最近也針對壯世代我們希望在三年內壯世代的是今年大概剛上路也希望能夠在這三年內能夠增加30萬的人力到我們的就業市場來所以這個"},{"start":188.11,"end":190.453,"text":"所以如果一季一季看是相對時間太短,看不出他這個服務的變化"},{"start":206.129,"end":234.068,"text":"對那以第二個需求量多的就是住宿跟餐飲業那我們也知道04、03臺花蓮發生了大地震我不曉得這個地震對於相對這種需求怎麼去評估它的影響因為我們也看到媒體說其實花蓮目前的影響是蠻明顯的那這部分不曉得布里有沒有針對這個特殊的事件在因應的時候有哪一些的作為"},{"start":234.488,"end":251.284,"text":"我們現在其實就是有一個專案小組就是我們的發展署在北分署那邊針對花蓮七大措施來做一些協助那包括他這邊的"},{"start":252.325,"end":254.267,"text":"有兩家目前只有兩家他是大量解雇"},{"start":280.285,"end":305.1,"text":"那這些人力說實在的一下子如果說你要轉業是到別的縣市去他也不容易啦所以我們就是就地來安置找工作機會給他所以這個部分我們都有持續在做一些對策的研擬然後希望能夠達到這個協助的效果如果當地的產業剛好也有需求"},{"start":306.861,"end":311.222,"text":"我們有幫他行銷啊。行銷權,台灣請這些好朋友來支持。這些三星人士來採購,沒辦法去那邊旅遊,但是可以用網購來支持他們的產業。"},{"start":328.988,"end":353.962,"text":"是 是 結果有初步的成效也能夠讓大眾多了解好 那我想我們還是很想要知道說這個國內的缺工的成因那專家學者也做了相關的分析包括說有六大成因會發生國內缺工包括共享經濟出現了一些變化還有低薪薪資的這個待遇不符的期待等等"},{"start":354.602,"end":379.205,"text":"那最後一項就是有關於企業沒有聘用中高齡的勞工那這個我是比較好奇的就是企業不聘用中高齡的勞工他可能的這個因素還有我們在做制定政策的時候可以做哪一些的因應包括如果從政策方向來看的話其實就是三大項一個就是勞動力供給不足"},{"start":379.725,"end":407.091,"text":"一個是工作條件不具有吸引力學用落差跟技能不足那如果以這個企業沒有聘用中高齡勞工來看的話是到底他的工作條件環境具有吸引力呢還是因為他本身借齡以後他的學用落差造成技術不合引起的這些問題那這個在政策的處理部分我們也看到是希望能夠改善這個友善職場要能夠提供好的這個產學雙贏的"},{"start":409.893,"end":428.49,"text":"這些做法不知道除了目前的政策方向以外在執行上有沒有比較能夠讓我們可以看到的一些數據或者是改善?其實這些成因裡面我們覺得我們的了解其實這個薪資待遇的部分占很大的"},{"start":429.687,"end":451.705,"text":"很大的因素很大的比例薪資真的還是偏低還有像契業會聘用中高齡可能環境不友善以外其實很多僱主普遍存在有年齡歧視的問題他一看到是中高齡他就覺得他可能體力各方面可能不足其實在"},{"start":452.466,"end":470.34,"text":"在他的那個體力啊、體能或者這些可能薪資方﹖就是說他的專業需要再﹖技能需要再訓練﹖這個勞動部都可以處理的。我們都有相關資源,比如輔具啊。我們每個人一年有十萬塊喔。是每年不是﹖"},{"start":471.041,"end":492.113,"text":"每年他只要對他工作感上有用的我們有10萬的額度你可以來申請然後像那個整個那個如果專業或技能不足我們也可以培訓所以這個都沒有問題主要是說可能僱主在心態上他沒有講出來啦但是很明顯就是看著引法族就"},{"start":493.514,"end":512.523,"text":"可能就排在第二位了那再來就是薪資還是普遍偏低啦因為現在是市求人嘛那如果一樣的有更好的工作條人往高處爬他如果有好的薪資他為什麼要來這裡所以這個也是可能所有企業主在面對缺工的問題你可能要先看看"},{"start":513.523,"end":530.84,"text":"如果有好的這些壯士袋你也應該可以來考慮使用那體能或者這些各方面需要工作環境需要改善勞動部都可以支持都可以來幫忙都沒有問題但是薪資的部分的確是要再提升"},{"start":531.9,"end":558.893,"text":"所以我們是很希望僱主能夠針對自己的需求缺工的同時也能夠改善他自己內部的環境讓我們這些中高齡者有意願能夠進到這個職場來因為相較於世界各國我們真的是相對落後很多我們不知道在以韓國為例跟日本為例你看這個60歲以上的在"},{"start":560.034,"end":560.174,"text":"我們現在在努力"},{"start":577.114,"end":599.49,"text":"就是我們用壯士代來代替這個忠告領告,就是希望大家不要把它有年齡歧視,他們還是很優秀的。然後我們其實希望這樣又透過各種計畫來把這個勞參與能夠提升。是,那我們有沒有跟這些國家有哪一些的交流或者是能夠掌握他們的一些。都有去考察過。"},{"start":601.271,"end":625.397,"text":"這幾年是因為疫情,不然以前都有考察,那沒有我們也都會搜尋他相關的資訊是,那希望我們有機會能夠繼續改善這部分那其實這個補助申請數相對可能申請人多可是能夠媒合的人相對就不夠這個是希望能夠來繼續努力的那最後來請教一下"},{"start":626.477,"end":654.328,"text":"怎麼去搶人留才這樣的這個問題我們知道目前的這個移工人數相對是多的我們看下面一個資料可以發現說我們有蠻多的這個移工是在臺灣他們也根據一些規定能夠持續在臺灣貢獻他們的力量比如說如果移工在臺工作滿6年以上他就可以能夠做一些改變然後繼續留在臺灣"},{"start":655.348,"end":681.917,"text":"那以目前的這個社福移工就是包括照護等的話有12萬人可是只有1.5萬人他願意申請流財的這個方案這部分問題是出在哪裡如果說他有這個條件留下來他也有意願留下來為什麼他沒有辦法來申請是這個僱主的因素呢或者是我們的仲介的讓我們這樣的這個好"},{"start":683.858,"end":710.614,"text":"想要讓這個移工留下來的這個無法促成這樣的成果我們是每個月統計每個月大概都有一千人接近兩千接近兩千就是產業跟社福分別他大概合計大概有兩千人然後社福是佔了三分之二社福比較多轉任的比較多那他當然會錄因為我們這是八年計畫到2030我們準備"},{"start":714.277,"end":735.533,"text":"14萬,就是所有的移工郵載9月14萬,那其實以現在的,我們都已經超標了,我們其實照理說我們上路還不到兩年,我們其實一般來講我們大概希望一年一萬,我們不到兩年,現在已經兩萬五千多了,到三月底,是遠遠超標,那當時他的申請是會陸陸續續,"},{"start":737.614,"end":742.611,"text":"好,那很希望這樣的方案可以拿到發揮他的責任。好,謝謝部長,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151736","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151736","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce155270ba8f6241d8e6e44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed0c5623f32ff13d98b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:27:07 - 10:37:00","影片長度":"00:09:53","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-17"},"duration":593,"end_time":"2024-04-25T10:37:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T10:27:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":396,"blocks":[["林委員思銘：（10時27分）謝謝主席，請秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：林委員好。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長好。因為時間的關係，我想我今天謹就主要星期一詢答的這幾個法案來請教秘書長。第一個就有關立法院組織法第十四條修正草案，立法院置秘書長一人，特任；副秘書長一人，並兼任本院資通安全長，推動及監督院內資通安全相關事務。資通安全非常重要，我想秘書長一定同意，但是這麼重要的職務，現在修法說要由我們的副秘書長，就特別因為要設資通安全長，那麼我們修法要建置一個副秘書長，然後又由這個副秘書長來兼任我們的資通安全長。我想就教秘書長，副秘書長是不是一定就具有資通安全的專業背景？"],["周秘書長萬來：一般來講現行的規範就是由副的幕僚長來兼任，所以現行已經就是副秘書長來兼任了。"],["林委員思銘：這個部分資通安全法裡面有提到，因為現行就是由副秘書長來兼任，其實這點我是很有意見的，不是每一個副首長都對資通安全是瞭解、理解的。我們來看資通安全管理法的規定，資通安全管理法第十一條規定「公務機關應置資通安全長，由機關首長指派副首長或適當人員兼任」，所以依這一條的規定來看，資通安全長不是一定要由副首長來兼任，可以指派適當的人員兼任。所以對於這個修正法條說，由副秘書長承院長之命，並兼任本院資通安全長，也就是說資通安全的事項就是由副秘書長來兼任，但是現在遇到一個狀況，副秘書長如果對資通安全完全外行，他能夠領導統御嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：從法上來看，資安長大概是來督導，他應該是督導這個資通安全的業務。"],["林委員思銘：秘書長講得很好，「督導」，督導的內容很廣，督導當然本身就要具有這方面的專業嘛，你要督導，你沒有這方面的專業背景，怎麼督導？你怎麼督導？對於資通安全相關的細節、業務完全一竅不通，你跟我講說你要去督導？"],["周秘書長萬來：副秘書長在這邊，我請副秘書長……"],["林委員思銘：不要緊，我趕時間，因為我剛剛聽到秘書長的詢答，現階段我們立法院對於資通安全的事項，是怎麼樣來處理？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：謝謝委員，跟委員報告一下。我們目前資通安全的管理組織架構，資通安全長是副秘書長擔任，然後再下來有一個執行秘書，是由資訊處的處長來擔任，然後再下來有三個小組，第一個是資通安全工作小組，是由資訊處組成的；第二個是資通安全稽核小組，它是任務編組；第三個是個人資料管理小組，是本院各單位來組成。"],["林委員思銘：你現在唸的這個是現階段我們立法院的相關規定？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：對，沒錯，依照我們的要點「立法院資通安全管理要點」來成立。"],["林委員思銘：所以，現在我們看這次要修的版本又說要成立資通安全處，依照現行的要點，就資通安全的相關業務，在資訊處裡面就已經有相關的處理方式了嘛，是不是？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：對的，沒錯。"],["林委員思銘：所以我要就教你們，你認為現在這樣的修法有必要嗎？要在我們的組織上再去成立一個資通安全處嗎？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：其實目前其他單位都是在資訊處底下就有辦理這樣的工作，當然有設資通安全長這個職務，但是並沒有另外再設資通安全處這樣的狀況。"],["林委員思銘：是，所以我剛才聽到秘書長，你是講說你要加強資訊處關於資通安全的相關功能，就可以達到維護資通安全的目的了，是不是？你的意思是不是這樣？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為我們有研議過，研議過資訊處的處務規程，在它的處務規程裡面把資通安全納入進去，我們處長是說業務上是沒有問題的，而且考量其他各院的衡平性，其他各院也沒有設資通安全處這樣的情況。"],["林委員思銘：是。那我現在問你，資訊處，你現在確定，依照現行的要點，對於資通安全的相關事項，依照現在資訊處的編制，你有能力去維護、處理嗎？"],["鄭處長輝彬：報告委員，目前資訊處這邊針對整個資通安全的要求事項，我們都有依照A級機關的應辦事項辦理相關的作業。"],["林委員思銘：是，所以你們是從原來的編制裡面去做任務編組？"],["鄭處長輝彬：我們就是資訊處的人員去辦理相關的事項，當然我們專責人員要適格，很多都是……"],["林委員思銘：就是你從現有的人員裡面去做調配嘛？"],["鄭處長輝彬：是，沒錯。"],["林委員思銘：成立剛才講的有好幾個小組嘛？"],["鄭處長輝彬：對，就現有的人員去調配……"],["林委員思銘：有一個資訊安全小組嘛？"],["鄭處長輝彬：對，是。"],["林委員思銘：所以我現在的問題就是，到底這些資訊處原來的人員有沒有接受過資訊安全相關的教育訓練，如果他本來會的就是修電腦或者電腦的維護，資訊安全他懂嗎？"],["鄭處長輝彬：報告委員，根據整個資安法的規定，我們的專責人員要取得專業證照跟職能訓練證書，我們都有依照規定……"],["林委員思銘：是，所以有去做教育訓練？"],["鄭處長輝彬：有。"],["林委員思銘：還有接受相關考試的認證？"],["鄭處長輝彬：是。"],["林委員思銘：有喔？"],["鄭處長輝彬：有，都有。"],["林委員思銘：好，這樣我瞭解了。所以，依剛才的說明來講的話，秘書長你是同意，你也認為這一次的修法應該是沒有必要的囉？"],["周秘書長萬來：我們有研究過，資安處不一定要成立，但是把資安長明定在那邊，因為現行就已經是這樣的規範，所以我們幕僚在處理的時候，認為明定資安長沒有關係，但資安處是……各院平衡下，是不是要設這個，我們傾向認為……"],["林委員思銘：其實我心中一直有一個疑問，為什麼不用資訊處長兼資安長呢？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為大家都是由副首長……"],["林委員思銘：但是我剛才唸那個法條給你聽了，資通安全管理法第十一條規定由機關首長指派副首長或適當的人選兼任。"],["張副秘書長裕榮：資通安全是跨機關、跨單位，所以如果由資訊處長擔任的話，他可能沒有辦法跟其他同級的單位整合，所以必須由副秘書長級以上……"],["林委員思銘：副首長。"],["張副秘書長裕榮：對，由他擔任會比較適合。"],["林委員思銘：OK，瞭解。","好，最後一個問題是針對國是論壇。秘書長，國是論壇從立法院第幾屆就開始有了？"],["周秘書長萬來：我沒有記錯的話，從第2屆第4會期第4次會議就有了。"],["林委員思銘：就有了嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：對。"],["林委員思銘：我剛才聽您的詢答，對於國是論壇是不是有繼續存在的必要，你也做了很詳細的解釋。現在修法的一個理由好像是認為會延宕議事，秘書長認為會嗎？國是論壇這一個小時對政府機關提出建言、看法，你認為會延宕議事嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我個人比較保留，我知道有也有資深助理希望把它廢掉，這些我都看過，但個人比較保留，認為它有一個疏洪道，另外有其他衍生的，舉個例子來講，我們10點開會，差1個鐘頭的時間，讓委員針對他所要提的各個議題，對外藉這3分鐘闡述，我個人不認為……"],["林委員思銘：對我們的國是提出相關的建言。"],["周秘書長萬來：我個人不認為……"],["林委員思銘：增加立法委員監督的能量嘛！所以這是一個很好的機制，我不曉得為什麼執政黨的立委竟然要把它廢除，怕什麼呢？我不曉得執政黨的委員怕什麼，國是論壇你們也可以參加，大家針對發生的時事、重要的政事，在國是論壇提出自己的看法跟建言，增加立法委員的監督能量，這是非常正面、有意義的，把它廢除才叫自我閹割，所以我覺得這樣的修法非常不恰當。好，以上。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝周秘書長。","先作會議程序的宣告，稍後在吳委員思瑤詢答完畢後休息5分鐘。","接續請沈委員伯洋進行詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-17","speakers":["鍾佳濱","范雲","羅智強","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林思銘","吳思瑤","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員高金素梅等\n23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條\n之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案；三、繼續審查\n( 一) 民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」\n案、( 二) 委員賴瑞隆等16 人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草\n案」案；四、(一)繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審\n查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」\n案、( 四 ) 繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kaaw 等19 人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(五)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)審查\n委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133401_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.43909375,"end":9.649718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.72971875,"end":11.759093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.15534375,"end":14.796593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.083468750000002,"end":25.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.57971875,"end":41.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.06659375,"end":47.196593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.77034375,"end":53.929718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.03096875,"end":69.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.56846875000001,"end":71.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.66096875000001,"end":74.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.43284375,"end":78.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.88284375,"end":89.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.51096875,"end":87.84846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.09721875000001,"end":109.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":110.32596875,"end":122.57721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.52221875000001,"end":124.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":124.39971875,"end":131.35221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":131.77409375000002,"end":135.62159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.34721875,"end":153.69471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.15034375000002,"end":159.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.07346875000002,"end":161.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.59221875,"end":161.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.54971875,"end":167.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.47721875000002,"end":173.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.08409375000002,"end":173.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.11784375000002,"end":174.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.23596875,"end":174.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.23159375,"end":175.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.96971875,"end":177.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.64034375,"end":177.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.65721875,"end":184.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.43221875,"end":186.70221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":186.70221875000001,"end":195.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.17471875,"end":187.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.08971875,"end":192.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.79784375,"end":198.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":198.31221875,"end":208.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.02346875,"end":227.16846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.72659375,"end":220.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.83596875,"end":222.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.21909375,"end":233.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":233.05784375000002,"end":237.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.07409375,"end":238.15409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":237.69846875000002,"end":239.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.94721875000002,"end":239.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.13284375,"end":239.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.18346875,"end":239.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.20034375,"end":243.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.33909375000002,"end":243.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.52034375000002,"end":244.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":244.14471875,"end":261.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.19534375,"end":244.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.86346875000004,"end":262.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.80846875000003,"end":263.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.34846875,"end":267.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":269.03534375000004,"end":273.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.23284375000003,"end":291.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.24284375,"end":303.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.44784375,"end":321.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":305.09721875,"end":305.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":320.23409375,"end":320.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":320.30159375,"end":320.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":321.19596875,"end":333.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.21284375000005,"end":321.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.35846875000004,"end":343.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":343.84221875000003,"end":344.38221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":344.65221875000003,"end":347.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.24659375000005,"end":356.78534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":355.87409375000004,"end":358.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.96221875000003,"end":360.02534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":360.02534375000005,"end":365.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":360.04221875,"end":360.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":362.82659375000003,"end":363.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":364.93596875000003,"end":365.47596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":365.39159375,"end":381.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.09784375000004,"end":393.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":388.35846875000004,"end":388.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":389.67471875,"end":393.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":393.65721875,"end":393.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":393.72471875,"end":409.78971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.11284375,"end":396.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.09346875,"end":428.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":412.32096875,"end":412.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.70659375,"end":433.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":430.64721875000004,"end":431.22096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":433.66784375000003,"end":438.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.01721875000004,"end":439.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.16471875,"end":440.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":440.97471875,"end":450.59346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.59346875000006,"end":470.80971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":466.35471875,"end":466.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":468.58221875000004,"end":468.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":469.57784375000006,"end":470.10096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":470.84346875000006,"end":470.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":471.04596875000004,"end":475.87221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":476.27721875000003,"end":481.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":481.20471875000004,"end":486.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":486.62159375000005,"end":508.49159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.29659375000006,"end":487.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":508.66034375000004,"end":511.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.02284375000005,"end":541.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":530.5134687500001,"end":531.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":540.41909375,"end":549.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.6084687499999,"end":544.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":550.25721875,"end":555.5053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":556.72034375,"end":557.1928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":558.15471875,"end":558.8972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":558.96471875,"end":590.9428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.9428437500001,"end":591.3815937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.118,"end":8.299,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":15.185,"end":40.659,"text":"議員好,民進黨好。我想今天因為時間的關係,我想我請就我們今天主要稀奇一尋答這幾個法案來請教秘書長。第一個就有關立法院組織法第十四條修正草案。議法院自秘書長一人特任副秘書長一人並兼任本院的資通安全長推動及監督院內資通安全的相關事務。"},{"start":42.15,"end":68.93,"text":"那我想自通安全非常重要嘛我想秘書長一定同意但是這麼重要的一個職務現在修法說要由我們的副秘書長就特別又因為這個要設這個自通安全長那麼我們修法要自這個建置一個副秘書長然後又由這個副秘書長來兼任我們的自通安全長"},{"start":70.646,"end":78.432,"text":"我想就叫秘書長,副秘書長是不是一定他就具有知通安全的專業背景?"},{"start":84.265,"end":90.269,"text":"互負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負責負"},{"start":110.442,"end":122.308,"text":"指通安全管理法第11條規定說公務機關應至指通安全長由機關的首長指派副首長或適當人員兼任"},{"start":124.862,"end":135.329,"text":"因此,根據此條規定,執通安全長並非必須由副首長兼任,而是可指派適當人員兼任。"},{"start":154.222,"end":160.369,"text":"但是現在遇到一個狀況啊,副秘書長如果對資通安全完全他外行,他能夠領導統一嗎?"},{"start":164.004,"end":183.823,"text":"大概從法上來看是資安長大概來督導應該是督導這個自動安全的業務督導的內容很廣督導當然本身就要具有這方面的專業你要督導你沒有這個專業背景怎麼督導"},{"start":186.414,"end":191.356,"text":"議員高金素梅等二）民進黨團擬具:「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案案 案件 、議員高金素梅等二）民進黨團擬具"},{"start":210.206,"end":210.386,"text":"指揮委員指揮委員"},{"start":227.406,"end":250.392,"text":"第二是資通安全集合小組,他是任務編組第三個是個人資料管理小組,是本院各單位來主持你現在念的這個是我們現階段的我們的立法院的相關的一個規定依照我們的要點,立法院資通安全管理要點所以現在我們現在看這個版本,現在這次要修版本,又說要成立資通安全處"},{"start":251.852,"end":253.153,"text":"案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條"},{"start":274.284,"end":289.338,"text":"其實目前其他單位目前都是在資訊處底下就有辦理這樣的工作當然有社資通安全長這個職務但是並沒有另外在社資通安全處這樣一個狀況"},{"start":291.3,"end":319.489,"text":"所以我剛才聽到秘書長你是講說你要加強資訊處的相關的一個功能就是知通安全的功能就可以達到維護知通的安全了嗎?是不是?你的意思是怎樣?因為我們有演繹過啦是演繹過資訊處裡面它的出規整在把知通安全納入進去我們處長大概是說這個業務上是沒有問題的而且其他各院的橫平性其他各院也沒有受知通安全處"},{"start":320.149,"end":338.572,"text":"事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案件事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案件事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案件事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案件事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正草案件事務委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正草案件事務委員高"},{"start":348.514,"end":361.849,"text":"我們就是資訊處的人員去辦理相關的事項當然很多都是我們專職人員要四個很多都是就是你從現有的人員裡面去做調配嗎?是沒錯做成立剛才講的好幾個小組嗎?對就現有的資訊安全小組嗎?對是所以"},{"start":366.013,"end":380.533,"text":"那我現在就說到底這些原來的資訊處的人員他有沒有去做過相關資訊安全的教育訓練如果他的他本來會的就是一個修電腦啦或者電腦的維護啦資訊安全他懂嗎"},{"start":382.396,"end":409.491,"text":"報告委員因為我們根據整個資料規定的話像我們專責人要取得專業證照跟證書我們都有依照規定所以有去做教育訓練有還有經過相關的考試是的認證有了有都有OK好這樣我了解了所以我想所以依這個整個剛才的一個說明來講的話那秘書長你是同意說你也認為說應該是這一次的修法是沒有必要的囉"},{"start":410.734,"end":437.272,"text":"我們有研究過啦所以大概資安處不一定要成立但是把資安長明定在那邊因為現行就已經這樣的規範了所以我們在幕僚在處理的時候是認為資安長把他明定沒關係但資安處是各院評伍是不是要做這個大概我們在傾向是其實我一直心中一個疑問那為什麼不用資訊處長來兼資安長呢因為"},{"start":440.236,"end":442.899,"text":"之通安全管理法11條是規定由機關首長指派副首長或適當的人選兼任的。"},{"start":456.934,"end":467.165,"text":"案,因此,如果由資訊處長來擔任的話,他可能就沒有辦法跟其他的同級的單位來做一個整合,所以必須要由副首長來擔任,這樣會比較適合。最後一個問題,我想針對國事論壇的問題,"},{"start":476.574,"end":494.74,"text":"國事論壇是從我們立法院第幾屆就開始有了?我沒有記錯,第二屆第四會期、第四次會議就有了。我剛才聽到您的詢問,對於說國事論壇是不是有繼續存在的必要性,您也做了很詳細的解釋。"},{"start":496.661,"end":513.192,"text":"那我想現在修法的一個理由好像是認為說會延宕議事啊那民進黨你認為會嗎國事論壇這一個小時對我們的政府機關提出建言看法你認為這是要延宕議事嗎我個人是比較保留啦"},{"start":513.712,"end":540.508,"text":"因為我知道也有資深助理也希望把它廢掉了因為這些我都看過但我個人是認為比較保留是認為這個他有一個疏通到另外我剛才他有其他衍生的比如舉個例來講我們10點開會吧但你差一個鐘頭之間給委員有一個對各個他所要提的對外的一個藉著三分鐘來來闡述我個人是對我們的"},{"start":542.069,"end":555.326,"text":"國事提出他的一個相關的一個建言。所以增加我們立法委員監督的能量。所以這是一個很好的一個機制啊。我不曉得為什麼我們的這個執政黨的立委竟然認為說這個要把它廢除啊。"},{"start":558.159,"end":580.412,"text":"這個怕什麼呢?我不曉得偵探委員你們怕什麼呢?國事論壇你們也可以來參加大家把我們這個發生的這個時事發生的相關的一些重要的正事在國事論壇提出自己的看法跟建言增加我們立法委員的監督能量我想這是非常正面有意義的"},{"start":581.232,"end":582.034,"text":"條文修正草"}]}},{"id":"151735","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151735","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15ab0d1b73c1058ab320df1bb4ac2af973c68e374cd8c4bed048d4f4d23457bc715ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:13:40 - 10:28:27","影片長度":"00:14:47","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":887,"end_time":"2024-04-25T10:28:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T10:13:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":379,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時13分）謝謝主席，請王次長。"],["主席：有請王次長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：次長早。4月3號的大地震之後，餘震不斷，全臺都有災情，其中也包括我們文化資產的部分，本席有向文化部來詢問，截至到4月17日你們收到的這些回報，總共是有69處，20處是縣市定的古蹟，32處是歷史建築，1處是文化景觀，以及有1處是聚落建築群，你們也初估修繕經費大概是3.4億。這邊要請教次長，文化部會不會優先提供這個預算，趕快來修復這些文資？"],["王次長時思：我想我們會依據它損害的程度來做優先排序，因為它的資金有兩個來源，一個是針對行政院的災害準備金，另外一個我們也會動用自己的「歷史五期」先展開，如果它比較有嚴重或者是危及安全的，我想我們會排在比較優先的順序裡面來進行。"],["陳委員秀寳：什麼時候會開始？"],["王次長時思：我們現在已經在做，因為現在已經評估完成，我想會儘快的來展開，確實的時間我們可以再跟委員做補充。"],["陳委員秀寳：在本席的選區，我們鹿港天后宮也回報有災損的狀況，包括三川殿及正殿的屋頂有裂縫，這個部分文資局有說已經率同專家、學者跟業務單位現場有現勘過，預計是將會漏的屋頂先修復。但是你們預計是5月中旬才會進場修復，現在已經開始慢慢的進入梅雨季節，開始會下雨，而且這樣的強降雨下來，如果說有這樣的裂縫，也怕漏水進去造成建築內部的損壞，這個部分可不可以再提早？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，我想有一些會有可能繼續造成損害的地方，我們看有沒有一些緊急措施可以採取，因為我想這個修復過程還是有需要找專家的團隊，恐怕也沒有辦法說馬上要修就有會有團隊進場。"],["陳委員秀寳：當然要修復有一定的程序……"],["王次長時思：但是我們可以有一些緊急的補救措施。"],["陳委員秀寳：希望可以再儘快，因為我擔心雨水會造成內部一些其他的部分也損壞了……"],["王次長時思：這個我們儘速。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以希望可以儘快來協助。"],["王次長時思：可以。"],["陳委員秀寳：今天是公視第三台轉型兒少頻道的專報，次長，不知道你們有沒有注意到，我國的無線電視頻道，公廣集團占了大概快一半，但是根據NCC112年通訊傳播市場的報告顯示，從102年到111年，在無線電視頻道的兒童節目大概都只有5%左右，在整體節目的播出占比是非常的低。今年文化部有透過黑潮計畫挹注公視6億的經費，要來產製優質的兒少節目，在今天的專報裡面有指出，預計在8月20號會正式播出，將公視三台轉為兒少頻道，目前你們所有的建置進度如何？剛才講的5%的播出率這麼低，我們預計以後可以提升到多少？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，的確提升自製率，而且是新製率，包括整體，不管是由公視自製、委製，或者是由民間團隊的合資合製等等，的確提升這個是目前的目標。至於說8月20號開台準備的情況，我想可以請公視做一個比較清楚的說明。"],["陳委員秀寳：你可以簡短的說明一下，公視這邊。"],["王次長時思：對公視來說，大概第一個就要準備開台有哪些節目，不管是自製的節目或者是購置的節目，都能夠在開台的時候展開。很重要的是這一次所謂小公視兒少頻道的開台，不是只有在這個單一頻道，它其實包括了多頻道，所以希望在數位的部分也展開，這個部分會是我們認為未來轉型的一個很大的關鍵。因為收視習慣的整個改變，大概鎖定在單一頻道上看的觀眾，其實相對是降低的，所以我們希望數位的這一塊在公視的經營之下也有比較好的發展。"],["陳委員秀寳：關於我們兒童的戲劇節目比較少，其實本席有詢問過影視局，112年公告各類型的節目補助的金額總共有三億六千多萬，但是補助兒童電視節目只有4,550萬，只占整體經費的12%，顯然我們在製作兒童節目的這個部分是比較缺乏。","本席知道申請的部分是由業者主動來申請，但是文化部這邊是不是有一些比較好的誘因，或是用不同類型的補助案鼓勵、提升業者來申請的意願，來提升我們整體兒少節目的產製？次長，你的想法呢？"],["王次長時思：目前來說，其實影視局從電視劇本創作、劇本開發，也有針對兒童電視節目製作補助的要點，包括電視跟新媒體這些大概都有。"],["陳委員秀寳：是不是它的誘因就不足啊？"],["王次長時思：我想誘因的部分有兩個啦！第一個當然是針對補助的額度；第二個，我覺得關鍵仍然還是量能，其實可以看到公視在這次的徵案裡面，如果民間它沒有相關的經驗，或者是它本來產製量能不足的情況下，即使我們拿出高額的獎金或者是補助，也不一定會有案子可以進來。"],["陳委員秀寳：如果說這量能不足的部分，你們有什麼比較具體的方案來協助相關的業者？"],["王次長時思：我們希望展開的是孵育，就是說我們跟他們一起合作，因為其實在過去的這些年來，大家可以看到在整體的製作節目上，幾乎是公共電視的這個集團，包括公視客語台、台語台、原民台，負擔了主要兒少製作節目的內容……"],["陳委員秀寳：當然如果這邊你們可以釋出資源來跟業者合作、來協助，應該對於節目的產製會有一些幫助。"],["王次長時思：資金跟人才可能可以透過這樣的合作、陪伴、孵育跟補助的獎金同時來下手，可以讓整個量能有比較好的改善跟提升，這是目前的計畫。"],["陳委員秀寳：次長，這邊再請教您，根據NCC的報告及文策院2023年臺灣兒少影視內容觀影行為調查顯示，無線電視收看的人數在我國是逐年下降，同時OTT平台是逐年上升，而且在4到10歲的兒少部分又以收視OTT平台影音為主。次長，這一次公視兒少台預計用怎樣的方式可以吸引兒少來觀看？我們在頻道設立的初期有沒有設定收視的目標？有沒有自己設定的目標達成率？"],["王次長時思：就幾個面向來說，第一個，公視+本來就有在經營數位平台，去年也改版了，用所謂親子家庭專區的方式、用分齡的方式來促進大家可以養成這樣的收視習慣。另外就是在這個小公視開台之後，包括公視的兒少網路平台、兒少的YouTube，還有公視+專區，透過整體數位串流平台的這些頻道也讓更多人可以看到這些公視的節目，這也是現在公視從單一頻道轉型的一個重要計畫。至於在整體的收視或者是透過這個平台觀看的流量上，我想我們也會訂定KPI來提供給大院做參考。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以你們自己也會訂一個目標？"],["王次長時思：是。"],["陳委員秀寳：根據文策院這邊的報告指出，兒少不同的年齡感興趣的節目是不太一樣的，4到8歲以音樂唱跳類為主，就是比較動態、比較活潑的，9到10歲的部分會轉去看劇情為主的卡通動畫類別。次長，目前我們公視兒少頻道的製播節目有沒有針對兒少的需求不同或是根據他們的作息及時間來製播不同的節目及安排這些時段？我們有這樣的規劃嗎？"],["王次長時思：的確，公視現在就是以不同年齡層的需求來進行規劃，所以可以看到，對於學齡前，像2到6歲，所提供的可能就是音樂、肢體及遊戲這一類的節目；如果是學齡的7到12歲，提供的就會包括科學實驗、實境節目、外景紀實這一類的節目；如果是12到18歲的青少年，就會出現解謎或者親子對談這一類的節目。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以這個部分你們也有留意到要根據不同的年齡層及他們的作息或需求來做這些不同時段的製播跟安排？"],["王次長時思：是，公視一開始的規劃就有這樣的分類。"],["陳委員秀寳：那如同剛才有提到的，目前兒少的收視是以OTT平台為主，以我國目前訂閱率比較高的OTT平台為例，上面的兒童專區部分並沒有像一般的頁面有選擇臺灣節目的部分，所以以後公視所製播的節目會不會有推廣到OTT平台的相關規劃？"],["王次長時思：有，這個就是我們希望努力的，所以委員這個建議我們也非常希望可以做到，如果未來在OTT的平台上可以看到公視的節目，不管是我們自己製作的戲劇節目或者是兒童節目，我想會是一個最好的選項。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝次長您有這樣的想法，因為文化部投入了近6億的預算讓公視來製播優質的兒少節目，本席認為除了在公視三台播出之外，應該持續推廣到現在兒少比較主要收視的OTT平台，讓更多的兒少可以觀看到我們臺灣自製的優質節目。","另外，本席也有發現，在無線電視的節目播放方面，其實重播率從103年到111年大概都是在五成左右，其中從108年開始就一路飆升到將近六成，但是臺語節目在無線電視的播放占比從110年的將近二成到111年又回到大概一成出頭喔。今年我們執行的黑潮計畫有提升我國自製優質節目的數量，推廣我國影視音的文化，但是電視臺的重播率卻持續攀升喔！次長，您覺得我們要如何推動臺語發展的業務，如何來推動我們多製播臺語節目？對於應該如何改善，你們有什麼目標？"],["王次長時思：我們現在的作法是這樣，因為我們有母語計畫，就是希望來推動整體使用臺語的情況，我們現在的作法倒不一定是直接製作臺語節目，最好的當然是所有節目都是全臺語，但另外還有一個方式，事實上，現在其他的譬如兒少節目或者是卡通的配音出現臺語，讓更多的節目使用臺語來發音，也就是即使你是看原本的收視習慣，你仍然可以選擇臺語發音的選項，加上同時提高製作臺語戲劇或者是臺語動畫成本的整體結構，包括資金跟臺灣自製的IP，希望透過這樣的方式……"],["陳委員秀寳：文化部最近有一個網路影音內容臺語主流化的徵件活動，希望影音節目、動畫影片、有聲節目等等用臺語來製播適合兒少觀看的內容，這個部分申請踴躍嗎？"],["王次長時思：目前還在徵求當中，還沒有結案，所以數量上可能要等到徵求結束以後才會比較清楚，但是包括戲劇性、包括綜藝性的節目，我們都有臺語發音的規劃。"],["陳委員秀寳：雖然時間還沒有截止，但你們沒有大概去看一下來申請的人踴不踴躍？來投稿的人。"],["王次長時思：對，因為總的來說，大概都要到截止日前案件才會湧進來的比較完整，我們可以到截止日之後再跟委員報告。"],["陳委員秀寳：有關這個部分，你們徵件的規定就是至少要製播10集，每一集長度至多20分鐘，而且可以使用其既有的網路內容轉譯成臺語或是製播新的臺語節目，但是這個部分我要提醒的就是，因為它是要推廣臺語的使用，如果後續入選者在臺語的使用上或是唸法上有疑義，你們有沒有相關的協助可以提供？就是在翻譯的部分，我們把國語的用詞翻譯成臺語的時候，如果覺得有疑義……"],["王次長時思：我們其實都有臺語的輔導，就是這個節目製作要有臺語的指導、要有臺語的顧問，所以在整體製作上其實就有要求，這是節目內容品質的問題，對於臺語的發音是有要求的。"],["陳委員秀寳：就是說投稿者本身在製作的時候如果有需要協助的地方，你們可以提供他協助嗎？"],["王次長時思：應該是說，他要製作的時候，我們就會要求他一定要有這個條件，他不可以沒有臺語指導員，因為如果沒有的話，未來如果他在語言的使用上出現問題的時候，其實會引起比較大的爭議啦。以現在製作的節目來說，其實都有配置這樣一個臺語指導員，現在像已經在上映的這些節目，例如鹽水大飯店這些，其實都有完成這樣的一個責任！"],["陳委員秀寳：次長，將來在你們截止徵件之後，對於入選的這些作品會透過什麼樣的方式來播送？是在入選者的個人網路平台還是你們有一個頻道來播送這些節目？"],["王次長時思：他們在提出整體計畫的時候，至少必須在他個人的平台上，但是我們當然期待他有更多的商模或者是跟其他頻道的合作，這是我們所期待，但是至少在他個人頻道上是一定要進行播出的。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以有入選的作品是在他個人的頻道上播送、播放？"],["王次長時思：至少。"],["陳委員秀寳：那你們有沒有去設一個目標，就是這個節目應該要推廣給多少人次來觀看？"],["王次長時思：目前我們沒有特別規定在人數流量上的限制，我們現在仍然是以鼓勵製作內容為主。"],["陳委員秀寳：如果沒有一個人數流量的規定，你們怎麼知道這樣的節目受不受歡迎？日後是不是要再推動這樣的計畫、再做這樣的節目？"],["王次長時思：我們基本上在審查的過程裡面會以這個作為審查的條件之一啦，就是大家會參考這個節目是不是能夠受歡迎，因為是不是能夠受到市場的重視當然也是審查的基礎。"],["陳委員秀寳：你總要有個指標啊！"],["王次長時思：我想是一個比較值啦，就是說有不同的案子進來，他們的受歡迎程度跟流量的程度應該是委員審查的一個基礎。"],["陳委員秀寳：次長，因為這個計畫的目標畢竟是要來推廣臺語主流化，所以對於這個部分，你們要怎樣去設定目標來瞭解我們這樣的計畫推廣是不是成功的，它是不是受歡迎的，日後我們才有個依據再來……"],["王次長時思：檢驗的指標。"],["陳委員秀寳：再來我們要推動這樣計畫的時候可以作為參考，所以對於這個部分，請你們會後來我辦公室，我們來討論一下好了。因為主席已經站起來了。"],["王次長時思：好，沒有問題。謝謝委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳秀寳委員，次長請回。","我在此宣告一下，待本席質詢完畢後休息5分鐘。","接下來請吳沛憶委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","葉元之","陳培瑜","何欣純","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","范雲","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","林月琴","陳冠廷","羅智強"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫─ 公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.24534375,"end":7.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.388468750000001,"end":8.637218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.121593750000002,"end":15.606593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.29846875,"end":52.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.96784375,"end":53.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.65971875,"end":53.67659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.67659375,"end":53.845343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.08159375,"end":71.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.88909375,"end":70.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.28971875,"end":77.26784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.26784375000001,"end":118.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.28471875000001,"end":80.05221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.76346875,"end":118.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.99971875000001,"end":133.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.38159375,"end":146.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.03534375,"end":136.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.22846875000002,"end":140.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.57409375,"end":143.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.40909375,"end":145.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.73784375,"end":197.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.97471875000002,"end":218.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.44409375,"end":220.38471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.62096875,"end":252.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.37971875000002,"end":278.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.12659375000004,"end":296.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.34159375,"end":281.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.47409375,"end":308.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.88159375000004,"end":309.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.72096875,"end":309.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.29471875,"end":327.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.64221875000004,"end":333.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.80221875,"end":330.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.23221875,"end":351.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.12409375000004,"end":351.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.18284375,"end":351.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.46971875,"end":351.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.62159375000005,"end":354.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.77346875,"end":352.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.97159375,"end":366.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.65909375,"end":354.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.30284375,"end":404.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.16596875000005,"end":428.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.73596875000004,"end":452.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.02784375000005,"end":481.39034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.77034375000005,"end":453.15846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.90096875,"end":506.12909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.47096875000005,"end":515.3090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.66471875,"end":508.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":513.55409375,"end":516.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.35534375,"end":536.8415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.3815937500001,"end":549.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.5147187499999,"end":615.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.96846875,"end":652.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.80659375,"end":667.2178437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":667.2178437500002,"end":667.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.0109687500001,"end":668.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.0278437500001,"end":668.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.90096875,"end":671.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":671.8078437500001,"end":683.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":683.43471875,"end":689.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":689.88096875,"end":695.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":695.6015937500001,"end":719.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":721.80846875,"end":729.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":728.11971875,"end":741.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":740.6072187500001,"end":747.2390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.7959687500002,"end":747.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":748.2178437500002,"end":759.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":759.79409375,"end":770.2903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":770.32409375,"end":785.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":786.37221875,"end":788.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":790.72596875,"end":802.9265937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":803.1628437500001,"end":814.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":818.7722187500001,"end":823.1259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":824.0203437500002,"end":834.3984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":824.08784375,"end":826.2309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":826.6528437500001,"end":827.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":833.48721875,"end":845.73846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":847.10534375,"end":854.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":854.02409375,"end":870.6628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":870.0047187500002,"end":871.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":871.2534687500001,"end":881.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":879.1172187500001,"end":881.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":883.0659687500001,"end":885.8503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":886.0190937500001,"end":886.9640937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.213,"end":8.274,"text":"謝謝主席 那請王次長有請王次長委員好 次長早4月3號的大地震之後餘震不斷那全台都有災情其中也包括我們文化資產的部分本期這邊有向文化部我們這邊來詢問截至到4月17呢你們收到的這些"},{"start":31.843,"end":53.086,"text":"回報總共有69處 20處是縣市定的古蹟 32處是歷史建築 1處是文化景觀以及有一處是聚落建築群那你們也初估就是 修算經費大概在3.4億那這邊要請教次長 文化部會不會優先提供這個預算趕快來修復這些文資"},{"start":54.187,"end":54.307,"text":"什麼時候會開始?"},{"start":72.352,"end":72.372,"text":"﹚陳秀寳﹚"},{"start":96.211,"end":113.739,"text":"預計是先將這個會漏的屋頂要先修復喔但是你們預計是5月中旬才會進場修復那現在已經開始慢慢的進入梅雨季節開始會下雨喔那而且這樣的強降雨下來如果說有這樣的裂縫也怕就是漏水進去說會造成建築內部的損壞那這個部分可不可以再提早"},{"start":119.201,"end":144.812,"text":"跟委員說明我想有一些會有可能繼續造成損害的地方我們看有沒有一些緊急措施可以採取因為我想這個修復過程還是有需要要找專家的團隊恐怕也沒有辦法說馬上要去修就會有它最緊張當然它修復它有一定的程序但是希望說可以再盡快因為我擔心說這個雨水會造成說內部一些其他的部分也造成損壞了所以希望說這個可能盡快來協助"},{"start":148.119,"end":163.086,"text":"今天我們的專報是公視第3台轉型兒少頻道的專報次長不知道你們有沒有注意到我國的無線電視頻道公廣集團占了大概快一半但是根據NCC112年通訊傳播市場的報告來顯示從102年到110年在無線電視頻道的兒童節目大概都只有5%左右在整體節目的播出率佔比是非常的低"},{"start":175.411,"end":180.877,"text":"今年,文化部有透過《黑潮計畫》預祝公視6億的經費要來產製優質的兒少節目。在今天的專報有指出,預計在8月20日會正式播出,將公視3台轉為兒少頻道。目前你們所有的建制進度如何?預計以後5%的播出率這麼低,我們可以提升到多少?"},{"start":199.935,"end":219.791,"text":"跟委員說明的確提升這個自治率而且是新治率包括整體不管是由公視的自治委制或者是說由民間團隊的合資合製等等的確提升這個是目前的目標那至於說這個8月20號的開台的準備的情況我想可以請公視做一個比較清楚的說明那你可以簡短的說明一下公視這邊"},{"start":220.792,"end":240.992,"text":"對公視來說大概就是第一個就要準備開台有哪些節目不管是自製的節目或者是購置的節目都能夠在開台的時候展開那很重要的是這一次公視的這個所謂的小公視的兒少頻道的開台呢不是只有在這個單一頻道它其實包括的是多頻道所以它希望在數位的部分也展開那這個部分會是我們認為未來轉型的一個很大的關鍵因為收視習慣的整個改變大概"},{"start":244.696,"end":247.157,"text":"關於我們這個兒童的這個節目戲劇節目比較少其實本席這邊有詢問過影視局112年公告各類型的節目補助的金額總共有3億6千多萬但是補助兒童電視節目只有4550萬只佔整體經費的12%"},{"start":271.068,"end":286.296,"text":"顯然我們在製作兒童節目的這個部分是比較缺乏那本席知道說這個是申請的部分是由他們業者主張來申請但是文化部這邊是不是有一些比較好的誘因或是有"},{"start":287.136,"end":287.657,"text":"是不是說他的誘因就不足啊?"},{"start":310.616,"end":327.616,"text":"我想右鷹的部分兩個第一個當然是針對補助的額度那第二個我覺得還關鍵仍然是量能其實可以看到公視在這一次的真案裡面如果民間他沒有相關的經驗或者是他本來產生量能不足的情況下即使我們拿出高額的獎金或者是補助也不一定會有案子可以解決"},{"start":327.756,"end":330.378,"text":"我們希望展開的是呼籲,就是說我們跟他們一起合作,因為其實在過去的這些年來大家可以看到就是說在整體的製作節目上幾乎是這個公共電視的這個集團包括公視、客語台、他語台、圓明台負擔了主要兒少製作的節目"},{"start":348.428,"end":365.79,"text":"這邊你們可以釋出資源來跟業者合作來協助應該對於這個節目的殘滯會有些幫助資金跟人才可能可以透過這樣的合作陪伴富裕跟補助的這個獎金同時來下手可以讓這整個量能有比較好的改善跟提升這是目前的計畫"},{"start":366.451,"end":387.777,"text":"市長這邊再請教您根據NCC的報告以及文策院2023年台灣兒少影視內容觀影行為調查也顯示無線電視在我國收看的人數是逐年的下降同時OTT平台是逐年的上升而且在4到10歲的兒少部分又以收視OTT平台影音為主那市長"},{"start":388.997,"end":402.782,"text":"這一次我們公視兒少檯目我們預計用怎樣的方式可以來吸引兒少來觀看那我們在頻道設立的初期有沒有設定收視的目標有沒有這樣子的一個自己設定的目標來達成這樣的達成率"},{"start":405.199,"end":427.139,"text":"好,第一個就是幾個變相,第一個公視Plus它本來就有在經營這個數位的平台,在去年也改版了,那也用所謂的親子家庭專區這個方式,用分鄰的方式來促進大家可以養成這樣的收視習慣。那另外就是在這個小公視的開台之後呢,也包括這個公視的兒少的網路平台,兒少的YouTube,還有這個公視Plus這個專區,這幾個"},{"start":429.718,"end":429.738,"text":"﹚陳秀寳"},{"start":445.094,"end":445.975,"text":"市長目前我們公視兒少頻道的直播節目有沒有針對兒少的需求不同"},{"start":474.895,"end":494.319,"text":"或是根據他們的作息他們的時間來安排直播的節目的不同以及安排這些時段我們有做這樣子的規劃嗎的確公視現在就是以不同的年齡層的需求來進行規劃所以可以分為可以看到就在學齡前像2到6歲他所提供的可能就是音樂啦肢體啊遊戲這一類那如果是學齡的7到12歲他提供就會包括科學實驗啦實境節目啦外景計時這一類那如果是12到18歲青少年呢他就會出現解謎啦或者是這個親子"},{"start":504.301,"end":504.742,"text":"目前兒少收視以OTT平台為主"},{"start":521.102,"end":524.486,"text":"以我國目前訂閱率比較高的OTT平台為例上面的兒童專區的部分並沒有像一般的頁面有選擇台灣節目的部分所以說以後我們公視自播的節目會不會有推廣到OTT平台的這些規劃?"},{"start":537.438,"end":554.286,"text":"有,這個就是我們希望努力的,所以我的這個建議我們也非常希望可以做到,如果未來在OT的平台上可以看到公視的不管是我們自己製作的戲劇節目或者是兒童的節目,我想會是一個最好的選項。那也謝謝次長你有這樣的想法,因為文化部我們投入了近6億的預算,讓公視來直播優質的兒少節目,那應該也要"},{"start":559.088,"end":565.634,"text":"除了在我們公視三台播出之外應該持續推廣到兒童現在兒少比較主要收視的OTT平台讓更多的這些兒少可以觀看到我們台灣自製的優質的節目那本席有發現在無線電視的節目播放方面其實重播率從103年到111年大概都是大概五成左右但是從108年開始一路飆升到將近六成"},{"start":583.772,"end":591.895,"text":"但是台語節目在無線電視的播放占比從111年的有將近兩成到110年又回到大概一成出頭那今年我們執行的這個黑潮計畫有提升我國自製優質節目的數量推廣我國的影視音音的文化但是在電視台的重播率卻持續的攀升部長您覺得說我們要如何來推動這個台語發展的業務"},{"start":611.761,"end":626.67,"text":"如何來推動我們多次播台語節目應該如何改善你們有什麼目標我們現在的做法是這樣因為我們有這個母語計畫就是希望來推動整體使用台語的情況那我們現在做法倒不一定是直接製作台語的節目包括"},{"start":627.27,"end":627.29,"text":"陳秀寳議員"},{"start":648.914,"end":648.934,"text":"﹚陳秀寳"},{"start":670.097,"end":672.42,"text":"因為還沒有截止,所以你們沒有大家去看一下說來申請的人有不有願,來投稿的人?"},{"start":690.041,"end":719.601,"text":"對,因為總的來說大概都要到截止日前案件才會湧進來比較完整,我們可以到截止日之後再跟你們說。這個部分齁,你們這個政見的規定就是說至少直播十幾集,每一集的長度只有20分鐘,而可以使用它既有的網路的內容轉譯成台語或是直播新的台語節目。但是這個部分呢我要提醒就是說,因為它是要推廣台語的使用喔,如果後續入選者他們在台語的使用上或是念法上有疑義,你們有沒有相關的協助可以提供?"},{"start":721.842,"end":726.344,"text":"就是說投稿的人他本身在製作的時候如果有這樣子需要協助的地方你們可以提供他協助嗎?"},{"start":748.577,"end":769.475,"text":"應該是說這樣他要製作的時候我們就會要求他一定要有這個條件他不可以沒有台語指導員因為如果沒有的話我們會未來如果他在語言的使用上出現問題的時候其實會引起比較大的爭議啦對那以現在製作節目來說其實都有配置這樣的一個台語的指導員那現在像已經在上映的這些像鹽水大飯店啦這些他其實都有完成這樣的一個責任"},{"start":770.656,"end":787.153,"text":"市長請教這些入選的作品將來你們截稿之後你們截止徵件之後你們入選的這些作品會透過怎樣的方式來播送是在入選者的個人網路平台還是說你們有一個這樣的頻道來播送這些節目他們在提出這個"},{"start":790.765,"end":794.608,"text":"所以有入選的作品是在他個人的頻道上播放?至少那你們有沒有去設一個目標就是說他這個節目應該要推廣給多少的人次來觀看?"},{"start":818.803,"end":845.542,"text":"我們沒有特別的規定在人數流量上的限制目前那如果沒有一個人數流量上的去一個規定的話你們怎麼知道說這樣的節目受不受歡迎以後是不是要日後是不是要再推動這樣子的計畫我們基本上在審查的過程裡面會以這個作為審查的條件之一啦就大家會參考說欸這個節目是不是能夠受歡迎因為是不是能夠受到市場的重視當然也是審查的基礎你總要有一個指標啊"},{"start":847.205,"end":847.225,"text":"檢驗指標"},{"start":871.516,"end":871.756,"text":"秀寳委員 次長請問"}]}},{"id":"151734","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151734","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce1502c2edfe8f0c3dc0e44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed0804320d2fba224b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:13:29 - 10:26:53","影片長度":"00:13:24","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-17"},"duration":804,"end_time":"2024-04-25T10:26:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T10:13:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":356,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時13分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長，謝謝。"],["周秘書長萬來：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長你好，關於整個國會改革的法案，在運作上我們當然希望核心是有關於國會聽證調查制度的建立，以及人事同意權強化的審查，這是我認為這次國會改革的重中之重，在這兩個重點核心條文之外，我們要外衍去修其他的條文，我覺得當然也應該可以考慮啦，但我們在修條文以前，有一些事實跟法律面必須要先確定，因為這次相關所提出來的，不管是委員還是黨團所提的版本，有的認為我們應該要向地方議會的某些制度看齊，人沒來的時候也沒有關係，反正按照預定時間來質詢，這就會牽涉到一些爭議，因為當初有立委人不在現場，然後質詢被跳過去時，馬上衝到院長的辦公室說：韓國瑜院長禮拜五下午是不是要出去玩，是不是跑去喝酒？按照我們立法院調查的結果，那天下午韓國瑜有跑出去玩，還是跑出去喝酒嗎？來，請秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：報告黃委員，那天下午他宣報以後是在後面跟我談一些事情。"],["黃委員國昌：所以他沒有出去玩，也沒有出去喝酒嘛！秘書長？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有，所以後來才……"],["黃委員國昌：好，事實先確定就好了嘛，發生爭議的那天禮拜五中午，最後一位王鴻薇質詢完之後，我在立法院ivod上面看到是12點8分，我的理解有沒有錯誤？"],["周秘書長萬來：沒有錯。"],["黃委員國昌：12點8分，按照我們的議事規則或是立法院相關的慣例，是應該要繼續質詢下去，還是中午應該要休息？"],["周秘書長萬來：一般來講是在12點前，舉個例子來講，比如說11點58分，或是再接近的話，大概會延啦！如果在12點後的，大概我們一般來講是沒有再……"],["黃委員國昌：所以接下來下一個委員就是要下午質詢嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：一般都是這樣處理。"],["黃委員國昌：是嘛！"],["周秘書長萬來：一般是這樣處理。"],["黃委員國昌：現在問題就來了，現在民進黨所提出來的修法草案認為，依照第一項登記的名單，第一項登記的名單是在報到日到開議後7日內要登記，按照這個登記擬定質詢的順序跟時間，依照表定的時間來進行質詢，我拜讀了立法理由，說是要保障立法委員的質詢權不受議事進行狀況所減損，依照第一項登記名單擬定質詢的順序及起訖的時間，訂了就不會動了嘛，這樣子的修法，秘書長贊不贊成？"],["周秘書長萬來：針對這個，因為我們那次黨團協商會議有做了研究，這個制度的某部分，黃委員在當場有提了，我立即做了研究，如果照這個法修完以後就會造成委員那個還是沒辦法解決，就官員一定要坐在那邊等到……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！這就是我的問題嘛！委員突然改書面，就像我剛剛講的那個例子嘛，本來輪到他質詢的時候要到下午了，你不可能在中午的時候，院長及所有的議事人員為了配合他的方便，中午不休息繼續質詢嘛，那他下午有行程就跑了嘛，跑了之後他要改書面，那我的問題就來啦！如果立委質詢改書面或質詢行政院長，所有的部會首長要坐在那邊等嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：如果這個法修了還是一樣會造成這個現象。"],["黃委員國昌：好。第二個事情是，民進黨黨團也提一個版本出來，我看了很有意思，他們說機關或是機構在調查委員會行使調查權的時候，沒有正當理由不可以拒絕、拖延、隱匿不提供文件、資料或物件；重點是下面，違反前項規定者，提報院會決議，處新臺幣一萬元以上三十萬元以下罰鍰。第四十八條的主詞是機關（構），那第二項是要罰誰？罰機關機構嗎？我看了很困惑，就像我叫農業部把報告交出來，雞蛋去哪裡買的、跟誰買的，我要了2個月，到今天還在拖延，如果按照這個新法，我們是罰農業部嗎？農業部不交，罰農業部，拿納稅人的預算來繳罰款，這有什麼嚇阻的作用？來，請秘書長表示意見。"],["周秘書長萬來：這個機關當然就不是當事人了。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係啦！看一下釋字第585號，釋字第585號有這麼限縮嗎？民進黨黨團的版本有兩大問題，第一個，說謊的時候要怎麼處理？我對說謊的時候要怎麼處理這件事情特別有感，因為我們的國會官員、我們的政府官員在國會裡面被抓到說謊不曉得幾次了，從來沒有人負責，連昨天司法院秘書長，我問他2016時，賴浩敏、蘇永欽是不是因為總統換屆有提前請辭？我問他，他說他不便表示意見，那奇怪了，換其他立委問他的時候，他說是因為任期屆了所以才辭，這根本是胡扯啊！2016年的時候，人家辭職書5月就提出來了，只是總統不批，7月的時候才公布啊！那哪是任期屆至啊？是忘了說當年夏天還提了兩位不適任的司法院正、副院長，引發民間社會大反彈，那個時候蔡英文才把當時夏天提的司法院正、副院長名單撤回重新提，才由許宗力老師上去當大院長嘛，這個簡單的、客觀的歷史事實都可以在國會裡面胡扯！","第二個重要的事情是什麼？釋字第585號講得很清楚啊！它規範的對象是什麼？與調查事項相關的人民或政府人員，有限於機關機構嗎？有只限於政府人員嗎？釋字第585號不是寫得很清楚嗎？連人民都包括在裡面啊！這不是國會固有的調查權嗎？怎麼有黨團提出來的國會改革法案裡面竟然有自宮條款？規範的範圍比釋字第585號還要限縮啊？我看了真的是瞠目結舌啊！這是哪門子國會改革啊！國會改革是限縮國會自己的權限，釋字第585號白紙黑字寫在這邊，結果在立法院職權行使法相應的條文沒有規範，所以我們現在才要推國會改革嘛！"],["但有一件更嚴重的事情，跟今天國會改革有密切相關，過去在立法院，這是我追蹤很久的案子，立法院之前用了一個民進黨的大樁腳當職員，叫做林耀庭，他在立法院任內的時候幹了什麼事情啊？他竟然幫助跨國的洗錢集團，把中國人非法引進到臺灣來，來幫助洗錢耶！檢察官的起訴書，整個調查包括判決說我們立法院裡面有內鬼，用偽造的文書找中國人來臺灣幫助洗錢、幫助詐騙，秘書長你仔細看，我把審判筆錄看完了，審判筆錄說什麼？這個被告林耀庭在裡面講\n            ：立法委員那邊已經傳給承辦人了，委員會親自處理，放心！我也會去親自處理。他橫向聯繫了以後，再找立委把手伸進去，委員可以施壓行政機關，這有嚴重的國安問題耶！非常嚴重的國安問題耶！我們立法院裡面竟然有內鬼去幫助外面的洗錢集團，找立法委員施壓我們的行政機關，施壓行政機關的範圍包括NCC、移民署，幫這些洗錢集團快速審案，可以用不實的文件拿到簽證來臺灣幫忙洗錢，這個嚴重影響臺灣國家安全跟社會秩序的離譜情事，我們的立法院有成立調查小組調查過嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：剛才人事處長跟我說，這位專員已經免職了。"],["黃委員國昌：當然是免職嘛，他一個人做得出這種事情來嗎？他在審判筆錄自己承認的事情喔！找立委施壓，哪一個立委施壓？這麼可惡啊！幫詐騙、洗錢集團用偽造的文件找中國人到臺灣來，還施壓我們的行政機關，這個事情該不該調查？秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：是，但是委員……"],["黃委員國昌：該不該調查？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為我不太瞭解，因為……"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我給你時間去瞭解。"],["周秘書長萬來：我來瞭解一下，好不好？我來瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：可以嗎？我不知道是不是因為這個職員是民進黨的大樁腳，所以上一屆的國會輕輕放下，根本沒徹查。","今天有立委提議要把性騷放到立法委員行為法裡面，老實講我個人是贊成，性騷也好，性侵害也好，性歧視也好，都放進來沒有問題，但我的問題是立法技術的問題，其他的行為裡面都沒放，就放一個性騷，我列舉幾個，請秘書長表示意見。立委關說司法，該不該放進去？秘書長，性騷不對，絕對不應該，立委關說司法該不該放進去？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個行為法好像已經有規定……"],["黃委員國昌：有關說司法？來來來，第二個，立委關說假釋要不要放進去？第三個，立委用公帑到國外私會小三，要不要放進去？拿立法院的錢跑去日本那邊私會小三，親中舔共，這個要不要放進去？立委自己審預算，自己申請補助，這個要不要放進去？我們在立法技術上要想清楚，哪一些該規範的條文全部都要放進去，這很重要，秘書長，你贊不贊成？"],["周秘書長萬來：我大概尊重大家委員的……如果要比較詳細、完整，當然是剛才委員所提的，不過司法案件，好像第十七條有規定，在第十七條遊說那邊……"],["黃委員國昌：對，你如果說有規定，那我就覺得很奇怪，當初有立委關說司法，什麼事也沒發生啊！那我們今天該檢討的，恐怕不是只有法律的規定，是如果如同秘書長所講的法律已經有規定了，怎麼最後什麼事都沒發生，這不是很奇怪的事嗎？這個才是我們今天討論立法委員行為法的時候，應該要關切的重點之一嘛，秘書長，你贊不贊成？"],["周秘書長萬來：尊重委員大家的合議，剛才委員所提的那些各種都加入進去，由委員來合議。"],["黃委員國昌：好。主席站起來了，尊重主席，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃委員，謝謝周秘書長。我們今天審查的條文法案包括有立法院職權行使法以及立法委員行為法，兩者有些不太一樣，謝謝。接下來請林委員思銘發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-17","speakers":["鍾佳濱","范雲","羅智強","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林思銘","吳思瑤","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員高金素梅等\n23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條\n之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案；三、繼續審查\n( 一) 民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」\n案、( 二) 委員賴瑞隆等16 人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草\n案」案；四、(一)繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審\n查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」\n案、( 四 ) 繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kaaw 等19 人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(五)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)審查\n委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133401_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.4653437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.39096875,"end":20.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.64784375,"end":23.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.74409375,"end":37.392218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.932218750000004,"end":44.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.91846875,"end":104.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.47409375000001,"end":80.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.18221875,"end":85.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.18346875,"end":104.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.04409375,"end":115.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.03409375000001,"end":115.05096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.53159375000001,"end":117.54846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.54846875000001,"end":118.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.91534375,"end":119.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.57346875,"end":123.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.19784375,"end":120.31596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.11721875,"end":123.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.55159375000001,"end":135.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.00971875000002,"end":138.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.70971875,"end":147.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.00784375,"end":148.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.78409375,"end":157.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.44096875,"end":164.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.03909375,"end":164.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.74346875,"end":166.85721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.65471875,"end":208.18409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.09346875,"end":168.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.80846875,"end":209.71971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.71971875000003,"end":209.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.37784375,"end":216.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.94221875000002,"end":238.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.09534375,"end":236.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.25971875000002,"end":237.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.03596875000002,"end":238.82909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.96409375000002,"end":243.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.38096875000002,"end":252.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.83534375000002,"end":254.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.33284375000002,"end":265.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.96409375,"end":267.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.15784375000004,"end":274.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.24971875,"end":278.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.56971875,"end":287.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.74534375,"end":295.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.03534375000004,"end":298.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.92096875000004,"end":300.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.85721875,"end":302.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.60784375000003,"end":306.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.86909375000005,"end":309.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.59846875,"end":312.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.61909375000005,"end":315.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.47096875,"end":317.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.42846875000004,"end":319.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.74034375,"end":322.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.10284375000003,"end":325.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.30909375000005,"end":327.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.96284375000005,"end":329.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.44346875,"end":333.39659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.96159375,"end":336.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.02909375,"end":337.63221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.71659375,"end":346.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.47034375000004,"end":350.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.38534375,"end":352.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.66346875000005,"end":356.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.44346875,"end":360.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.71721875000003,"end":361.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.16846875000005,"end":364.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.15971875,"end":367.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.29846875000004,"end":368.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.69909375000003,"end":369.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.09971875,"end":371.93909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.95596875,"end":372.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.15846875,"end":374.95971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.04409375,"end":376.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.28846875000005,"end":385.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.18159375000005,"end":387.61596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.83534375000005,"end":392.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.56034375,"end":395.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.12096875000003,"end":397.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.98534375,"end":408.43971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.70971875000004,"end":418.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.23971875,"end":424.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.85909375,"end":435.28784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.07659375000003,"end":438.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.30409375000005,"end":441.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.12221875,"end":444.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.29471875,"end":450.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.45846875,"end":451.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.17971875,"end":458.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.14909375,"end":460.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.03909375,"end":463.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.43096875000003,"end":466.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.87784375,"end":468.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.13909375000003,"end":479.77034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.44534375,"end":483.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.63471875000005,"end":485.71034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.23346875000004,"end":489.25409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.92471875,"end":491.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.21971875,"end":494.04659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.72159375,"end":497.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.02909375,"end":499.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":499.34534375000004,"end":500.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.61096875000004,"end":503.71596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.50909375000003,"end":505.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.82534375000006,"end":506.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.15846875000005,"end":509.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.62221875000006,"end":510.88784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.39409375,"end":515.2078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.2878437500001,"end":517.5703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.07659375,"end":522.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.5947187500001,"end":537.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.9890937499999,"end":539.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.24596875,"end":544.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.9753437500001,"end":544.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.31284375,"end":563.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.9765937500001,"end":564.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.2297187500001,"end":566.2209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.86221875,"end":572.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":573.9665937500001,"end":585.4584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.0490937500001,"end":586.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":587.68596875,"end":590.5209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.16221875,"end":593.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.5247187500001,"end":602.2153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.7722187500001,"end":604.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":604.96596875,"end":615.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.0234687500001,"end":615.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":616.06971875,"end":616.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.08659375,"end":617.3859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.90909375,"end":619.5459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":620.17034375,"end":621.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.43159375,"end":623.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.50721875,"end":625.4353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.2453437500001,"end":628.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.60784375,"end":630.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.66659375,"end":634.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.30721875,"end":637.3659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":639.12096875,"end":639.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":640.7240937500001,"end":640.7409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.7409687500001,"end":641.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.20909375,"end":648.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.50409375,"end":646.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.15346875,"end":647.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.2334687499999,"end":649.3472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":649.4484687500001,"end":649.7353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.6172187500001,"end":653.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.48159375,"end":656.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.43471875,"end":657.7678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.68721875,"end":662.1047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.49284375,"end":663.5222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.91034375,"end":669.4622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":669.76596875,"end":674.6765937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":675.03096875,"end":678.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":678.9965937500001,"end":685.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":686.7590937500001,"end":689.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":693.0534687500001,"end":693.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":694.70721875,"end":695.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.83784375,"end":695.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.0065937500001,"end":696.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.05721875,"end":696.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":696.96846875,"end":699.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.71909375,"end":706.0303437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":703.1784687500001,"end":704.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":704.8997187500001,"end":705.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":706.0303437500002,"end":707.2622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.62471875,"end":715.2947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":716.03721875,"end":717.3872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":717.62346875,"end":718.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":719.0578437500001,"end":720.4922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.9140937500001,"end":721.8928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":722.36534375,"end":723.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.34784375,"end":727.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":728.2040937500001,"end":729.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":729.3515937500001,"end":732.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":735.8315937500001,"end":737.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":737.6203437500001,"end":738.43034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":739.27409375,"end":741.1809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":741.7209687500001,"end":743.0203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":744.0834687500001,"end":744.8428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":744.8428437500002,"end":744.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":745.41659375,"end":745.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":745.9734687499999,"end":746.59784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":747.4584687500001,"end":751.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":752.2847187500001,"end":762.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":762.2578437500001,"end":769.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":762.32534375,"end":762.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":770.35784375,"end":773.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":774.0703437500001,"end":777.5972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":778.8290937500001,"end":780.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":781.6472187500001,"end":783.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":784.3472187500001,"end":790.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":791.0972187500001,"end":797.2565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":797.5603437500001,"end":800.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":800.04096875,"end":802.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":804.12471875,"end":804.96846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.409,"end":20.224,"text":"國昌發言。謝謝主席,麻煩有請秘書長。請周秘書長,謝謝。"},{"start":28.399,"end":44.064,"text":"關於整個國會改革的法案在運作上面我們當然希望核心是有關於國會聽證調查制度的建立以及人事同意權強化的審查這個是我這一次認為國會改革的重中之重"},{"start":44.966,"end":65.273,"text":"在這兩個重點核心條文之外我們要外延去修其他的條文我覺得當然也應該可以考慮但我們在修條文以前有一些事實跟法律面必須要先確定因為這一次相關所提出來不管是委員還是黨團所提出來的版本"},{"start":66.313,"end":90.441,"text":"案件,有認為說我們應該要向地方議會的某些制度看齊,人沒來的時候也沒有關係,反正按照預定的時間來質詢。這個就牽涉到有一些爭議,因為當初有立委人不在現場,然後質詢被跳過去的時候,馬上衝到院長的辦公室,"},{"start":91.381,"end":108.877,"text":"韓國瑜院長禮拜五下午是不是要出去玩?是不是跑去喝酒?按照我們立法院調查的結果那天下午韓國瑜有跑出去玩還是跑出去喝酒嗎?來請秘書長所以他沒有出去玩也沒有出去喝酒嗎?"},{"start":117.557,"end":134.009,"text":"秘書長沒有啦事實先確定就好了嘛那天發生爭議的那天禮拜五中午的時候最後一位質詢王宏威質詢完的時候我在立法院IVOD上面看到是12點08分"},{"start":136.072,"end":146.456,"text":"我的理解有沒有錯誤?那12點08分按照我們的議事規則或是立法院相關的慣例啊是應該要繼續質詢下去還是中午應該要休息?所以接下來的下一個委員就是要下午質詢嗎?"},{"start":166.082,"end":167.763,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":185.535,"end":207.914,"text":"按照這一個登記擬定質詢的順序跟時間依照表定的時間來進行質詢在立法理由裡面我拜讀了他說是要保障立法委員的質詢權不受議事進行狀況所減損依照第一項登記名單擬定質詢的順序及期期的時間定了就不會動了這樣子的修法"},{"start":208.815,"end":209.075,"text":"賴秘書長,贊不贊成?"},{"start":217.148,"end":243.266,"text":"這一個制度的某部分因為方委在當場有提的我們立即做研究以後如果照這一個法修完以後就會變造成委員還是沒辦法解決就官員一定要坐在那邊等到這就是我的問題委員改書面突然改書面就像我剛剛講的那個例子"},{"start":244.434,"end":266.673,"text":"本來輪到他質詢的時候要到下午了你不可能叫中午的時候院長所有的議事人員為了配合你的方便中午不休息繼續質詢嘛那下午的他下午有行程就跑了嘛跑了他要改書面那我的問題就來啦那如果立委質詢改書面或質詢行政院長所有的部會首長要坐在那邊等嗎"},{"start":268.177,"end":294.226,"text":"如果說法修還是一樣會造成這個現象好那第二個事情是說民進黨黨團也提一個版本出來我看了很有意思他說機關或是機構在調查委員會行使調查權的時候沒有正當理由不可以拒絕拖延引力不提供文件資料或物件重點是下面違反前項規定提報院會決議處新台幣一萬以上三十萬以下罰還"},{"start":296.049,"end":300.01,"text":"48條的組織是機關機構第二項是要罰誰?罰機關機構嗎?我看了很困惑就像我叫農業部把報告交出來一旦去哪裡買的跟誰買的我要了兩個月到今天還在拖延如果按照這個新法我們是罰農業部嗎?農業部不交罰農業部拿納稅的預算來繳罰款"},{"start":326.463,"end":352.018,"text":"這個有什麼嚇阻的作用啊來請秘書長表示意見好沒有關係啊看一下44585啊44585有這麼限縮嗎民進黨黨團的版本有兩大問題啊第一個說謊的時候要怎麼處理我對說謊的時候要怎麼處理這件事情特別有感因為我們的國會官員啊"},{"start":353.737,"end":376.364,"text":"我們的政府官員在國會裡面被抓到說謊不曉得幾次了從來沒有人負責連昨天司法院秘書長我問他說2016的時候賴浩敏、蘇永青是不是因為總統換屆有提前請辭我問他他說他不便表示意見"},{"start":377.344,"end":397.629,"text":"那奇怪囉換其他立委問他的時候他說是因為任期戒了所以什麼所以才遲這根本是胡扯啊2016年的時候人家辭職書五月就提出來了啦只是總統不批七月的時候才公佈啊那哪是任期戒制啊"},{"start":400.051,"end":428.51,"text":"是忘了說當年夏天還提了兩位不適任的司法院正副院長引發民間社會大反彈啊那個時候蔡英文才把那個時候夏天提的司法院正副院長的名單撤回重新提才有我們許仲麗老師上去當大院長嘛這個簡單的客觀的歷史事實都可以在國會裡面胡扯第二個重要的事情是什麼世紀585講得很清楚啊"},{"start":429.332,"end":457.511,"text":"他規範的對象是什麼?與調查事項相關的人民或政府人員有限於機關機構嗎?有限於只有政府人員嗎?4585號不是寫得很清楚嗎?連人民都包括在裡面啊這不是國會固有的調查權嗎?怎麼我們自己由黨團提出來的所謂的國會改革的法案竟然裡面有志工條款"},{"start":459.632,"end":479.304,"text":"規範的範圍比四字五八五號還要限縮啊我看了真的是瞠目結舌啊這是哪門子國會改革啊國會改革是限縮國會自己的權限四字五八五號白紙黑字寫在這邊結果在立法院職權行之法相應的條文"},{"start":480.506,"end":503.463,"text":"沒有規範所以我們現在才要推國會改革嘛但有一件更嚴重的事情跟今天國會改革有密切相關立法院我們過去這是我在追蹤很久的案子我們立法院之前用了一個民進黨的大莊角叫做林耀廷當職員"},{"start":506.108,"end":515.052,"text":"結果他在立法院任內的時候幹了什麼事情啊他竟然幫助跨國的洗錢集團把中國人非法引進到台灣來來幫助洗錢欸"},{"start":523.953,"end":537.352,"text":"檢察官的起訴書整個調查包括判決說我們立法院裡面有內鬼用偽造的文書找中國人來台灣幫助洗錢幫助詐騙律師長您仔細看喔"},{"start":541.294,"end":563.104,"text":"我把審判筆錄看完了,審判筆錄說什麼?這個被告林耀廷在裡面講說,立法委員那邊已經傳給承辦人了。委員會親自處理啊,放心,我也會去親自處理啊。他橫向聯繫了以後,再找立委把手伸進去啊,委員可以施壓行政機關啊。"},{"start":564.364,"end":571.991,"text":"這個嚴重的國安問題欸非常嚴重的國安問題欸我們立法院裡面竟然有內鬼去幫助外面的洗錢集團找立法委員施壓我們的行政機關施壓行政機關的範圍包括了什麼NCC移民署"},{"start":588.251,"end":609.37,"text":"幫這些洗錢集團快速審案可以用不實的文件拿到簽證來台灣幫忙洗錢這麼嚴重的影響台灣國家安全跟社會秩序的離譜情勢我們的立法院有成立調查小組調查過嗎?當然是免職嘛他一個人做得出這種事情來嗎?"},{"start":616.141,"end":636.839,"text":"在審判筆錄他自己承認的事情找立委施壓哪一個立委施壓這麼可惡幫詐騙洗錢集團用偽造的文件找中國人到台灣來還施壓我們的行政機關這個事情該不該調查秘書長"},{"start":640.852,"end":657.532,"text":"是該不該調查因為我不太瞭解沒有關係我給你時間去瞭解我來瞭解一下好不好可以嗎我不知道啦這個職員是不是因為是民進黨的大樁腳所以上屆的國會輕輕放下根本沒徹查嘛"},{"start":660.714,"end":688.992,"text":"今天有立委提啊說性騷要把他放到立法委員行為法裡面我老實講我個人是贊成的性騷也好性侵害也好性歧視也好都放進來沒有問題但我的問題很我的問題是立法技術的問題我們在其他的行為裡面都沒放就放個性騷來我列舉幾個啦請秘書長表示意見立委關說司法該不該放進去"},{"start":693.103,"end":707.046,"text":"秘書長,性騷不對嘛,絕對不應該嘛,立委關說司法該不該放進去?有關說司法,來來來,第二個,立委關說假釋要不要放進去?第三個,立委用公帑到國外私會小三,要不要放進去?"},{"start":716.089,"end":723.571,"text":"拿立法院的錢跑去日本在那邊撕毀小山親中舔共這個要不要放進去立委自己省預算自己撐起補助這個要不要放進去我們在立法技術上要想清楚哪一些該規範的條文阿全部都要放進去阿"},{"start":744.247,"end":769.187,"text":"這很重要嘛!秘書長您贊不贊成?在尊重大家委員的...要比較...詳細完整當然是剛才委員所提的啦!不過事務案件好像第17條有規定啦!對!第17條在...在...在遊說那邊...對啊!阿你如果說覺得有規定那我就覺得很奇怪啦!阿當初立委有關說司法!什麼事也沒發生啊!"},{"start":770.39,"end":782.73,"text":"那我們今天該檢討的恐怕不是只有法律的規定喔是如果如同秘書長所講的法律已經有規定了啊怎麼說什麼事都沒發生這個不是很奇怪的事嗎"},{"start":784.6,"end":802.404,"text":"這個才是我們今天討論立法委員行為法的時候應該要關切的重點之一嘛秘書長你讚不讚成尊重大家委員大家合意剛才委員所提的那些各種都加入進去那由委員來合意好主席站起來了尊重主席謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151733","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151733","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15170e4179158d32dac97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed095bd5f1704c9299c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"10:12:15 - 10:25:12","影片長度":"00:12:57","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":777,"end_time":"2024-04-25T10:25:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T10:12:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":507,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（10時12分）謝謝主席。再麻煩請許部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：涂委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：許部長，4月15日我們在立法院召開記者會，因為在移民署於今年3月介入調查後，將兩位肯亞籍專業表演人士鑑別為人口販運被害人。部長知道這個案子嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我知道，我們有掌握，而且我們在第一時間就有掌握了。"],["涂委員權吉：當初在引進時是以白領移工，也就是專業表演的藝術人才引進，後來才發現，在他們來到後，就被仲介帶到臺南某個遊樂場工作，還被帶到桃園的一個農場無償勞動，甚至被仲介逼迫，借錢度日。雖然這兩個肯亞籍外勞有打電話向1955投訴，可是臺南市府派員去查卻查無不法。針對這部分，不知道部長有沒有什麼看法？"],["許部長銘春：我覺得可能對工作內容沒有很詳細去核對，這部分他們應該要再……"],["涂委員權吉：但以我們所看到的來說，當初仲介是以運動藝術專業表演人員、白領移工引入，可是來到後，做的卻是藍領工作，與工作項目不符合。"],["許部長銘春：也就是從事許可以外的工作。"],["涂委員權吉：對，從事許可以外的工作。"],["許部長銘春：這是違法的！"],["涂委員權吉：對。後來我們才發現，這所謂的白領移工、表演藝術人員居然沒有最低工資保障！是不是這樣？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，他其實有達到最低工資，只是外界質疑白領用最低工資……"],["涂委員權吉：白領是四萬多，對不對？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，以四萬多來說，目前在法律上是像工程師之類的；至於表演藝術工作，依照文化部現在所定的資格，它不是以薪資，而是以專業……"],["涂委員權吉：我們要凸顯的是，由於沒有最低工資的保障，所以其實他領的錢非常得少，但是居然沒有違法！"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，他還是要符合最低基本工資，他還是符合的。"],["涂委員權吉：但是沒有符合最低白領的基本工資，是不是這樣？"],["許部長銘春：他不是屬於專技人員的白領，如果是專技人員的白領要四萬多。按照文化部規定，他是以演藝表演的專業資格進來的，並沒有要求說要給到四萬多。不過一定要給到基本工資，不然……"],["涂委員權吉：就是最低的基本工資，但低於一般白領的基本工資，是不是這樣？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["涂委員權吉：沒關係。在4月15日的記者會上，兩位肯亞人士親自現身說法，針對這部分，我們來看一下記者會上所提出的違法情事。就像剛剛部長所說，他從事許可外的工作，所以違反就業服務法；而且強迫勞動，違反了勞基法；未投保勞保，違反了勞工保險條例；也沒有投保健保，違反了全民健保法；而且沒有提繳退休金，違反勞工退休條例；不僅如此，還扣留他的護照，所以違反人口販運防制法，也是違反我們的法令！最主要的是，限制人身自由，這其實已經觸及刑法！我想請問部長，針對他們在記者會上所陳述的這些事項若都屬實，且違反了這麼多法令的話，部長，你覺得這問題嚴重嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，當然嚴重，一共違反了七項！我們一條一條去檢視其行為，該依法處理、依法裁罰，甚至有刑責問題的，都必須一一處理！"],["涂委員權吉：我們又發現另外一個問題，因為他有打1955申訴，臺南市勞工局也派員稽查、檢查，結果居然回復說雇主無指派許可外工作，這就是查緝的結果。針對這部分，移民署其實已經證實是許可外工作，不過臺南市勞工局仍說沒有強迫勞動，且有給付基本工資。依據兩位肯亞人的說明是，連基本工資都沒有領到，移民署也證實護照確實被扣留，不知道為什麼臺南市勞工局稽查後會說，護照是自行保管？針對以上各點，不知道勞發署與職安署到底有沒有介入調查？"],["許部長銘春：跟委員說明，這個案子我們有跟臺南市勞工局聯繫，他們現在也在做業務檢討。譬如查訪結果，為什麼會跟兩位肯亞籍人士後來所講的不一致？所以訪查技巧、訪查方式應該怎麼精進？這些我認為他們應該再做處理。"],["涂委員權吉：這件事對我們來講也很不可思議！他已經打1955求救了，而勞工局也去稽查，也碰到這兩位，沒想到稽查結果是完全合法，完全沒有違法事項！針對這部分問題，我希望勞動部要重視……"],["許部長銘春：我們會持續來關注這個案子。"],["涂委員權吉：這兩個肯亞人根本就是假白領真藍領！目前有八萬多的逃逸外勞，卻一直看不到勞動部提出完善的改善計畫。說實在話，我們當初就講引進印度移工等等固然是為了解決國內的勞工問題，但針對印度移工的文化、語言、生活差異，還有男尊女卑等等的觀念差異，我覺得勞動部應該要提出完善的計畫，不然我擔心一旦大量引進印度移工，到時候反而造成更多外勞逃逸！"],["許部長銘春：會，這個我們會謹慎，也會持續召開諮詢會議，就這些大家所關注的議題跟大家對話，並瞭解後續及相關需求該怎麼做，這些我們都會好好來規劃處理。"],["涂委員權吉：當然，許部長這幾年來很辛苦，不知後續新任的部長何佩珊上來之後，有沒有辦法接續並處理這些業務？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，應該沒有問題，以他的能力跟經驗，我想他一定可以把後續的一些工作……因為有些工作都是持續的，我想何部長沒有問題。"],["涂委員權吉：我還是要請部長去瞭解一下，其實我們昨天還打電話給勞發署，詢問兩位肯亞人的後續處理問題，但勞發署好像沒有聯繫當事人，也沒有針對4月15日勞團在記者會上所提出的違法事項一一去查核，看他們說的到底是不是屬實？我想這部分勞動部真的還是要去瞭解一下。而且我們認為後續針對這些白領的部分是不是可以抽打電話來查詢，瞭解他有沒有在許可外的工作，我認為這些工作應該不難，我們應該去抽查、去瞭解實際的狀況。"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，第一、我們第一時間馬上跟勞工局、移民署、專勤隊介入這個個案，而且馬上進入安置保護階段，因為他是人口販運被害人，所以後續整個的協助，我們會全程來處理；第二、就是剛剛委員提到的，他所涉及的每一個違法行為，我們現在已經請勞工局每一項去查證，查證屬實之後，我們就依法來裁罰；最後就是預防，因為勞團有提到未來會不會有這種假白領、真藍領，我們內部現在在整合，要建立一些預防跟未來的管控機制，相關的高風險對象，當然我們會提高審查。"],["涂委員權吉：好，我希望這部分還是要多重視一下。還有針對現在的基本工資，很多的工會、勞工朋友跟我們說，當然蔡英文政府基本工資連六年調漲，可是據我們瞭解……"],["許部長銘春：連八年。"],["涂委員權吉：沒關係，重點是基本工資雖然連續調漲，可是後來我們瞭解勞工整體的實質薪資好像並沒有因為基本工調漲而調漲，也就是說薪資在調漲，但是物價上漲的幅度卻超過調薪的幅度，所以基本工資跟實質薪資的調漲好像是有出入的，並沒有帶動我們整體的生活，也就是實質薪資並沒有跟著基本工資去做調漲。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為實質薪資主要是因為這幾年疫情還有俄烏戰爭、以哈戰爭這些國際因素、經濟情勢，造成物價通膨，當然會讓大家感受好像薪資追不上物價的速度，但是勞動部對於弱勢勞工、邊際勞工的最低工資，我們是持續的在提升，希望保障他最低的經濟生活，也希望這樣能夠帶動一般薪資提升，呼籲企業能夠跟勞工分享經濟果實。"],["涂委員權吉：所以基本工資的調漲也是希望帶動實質經常性薪資調漲，也希望讓勞工的生活可以過得更好，可是後來有很多勞工朋友跟我們陳情，因為沒有脫鉤的問題，他們說基本工資的調漲其實幾乎都是在調漲移工的工資，我們本勞的薪資可以說一、二十年幾乎都沒有調漲，因為他們領的並不是基本工資，領取基本工資的幾乎都是移工，所以變成基本工資的調漲一直都是調到移工工資，對於本勞薪資的調漲並沒有實質上的幫助。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我可以把數據給你，我們每年調升基本工資，本國人受益的就有兩百萬人以上，這個我可以給你。事實上法律並沒有規定移工進來要用基本工資聘他，其實是本外勞一致原則、平等對待原則，照理說他做的工作如果跟本國勞工一樣，應該是一樣的待遇，只是說大家用基本工資，那不能說基本工資只調到移工。"],["涂委員權吉：所以，部長，你也稍微瞭解一下，因為根據我們這個數據，你看基本工資跟實質薪資的調漲是有差異的，你說連八年基本工資調漲，可是實質經常性的薪資的調幅從110年到112年不但沒有漲，反而是調降的，所以這一部分，我希望勞動部重視，去瞭解一下。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝。"],["主席（黃委員秀芳）：謝謝涂權吉委員。","現在宣告：在蘇清泉委員質詢結束後休息10分鐘。","現在請王正旭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.5372187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.10909375,"end":16.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.00721875,"end":17.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.47909375,"end":22.137218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.62659375,"end":32.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.17784375,"end":32.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.71784375,"end":64.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.784093750000004,"end":41.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.104093750000004,"end":45.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.55784375,"end":57.642218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.642218750000005,"end":57.945968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.945968750000006,"end":58.047218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.51034375,"end":65.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.24846875,"end":83.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.69721875,"end":96.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.01159375,"end":97.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.31096875,"end":100.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.62284375,"end":108.48659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.48659375000001,"end":122.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.50346875000001,"end":108.67221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.48971875000001,"end":115.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.35784375,"end":122.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.74596875,"end":122.81346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.81346875000001,"end":122.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.96534375,"end":123.94409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.94409375000001,"end":123.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.97784375,"end":124.48409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.48409375000001,"end":124.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.53471875000001,"end":126.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.55159375000001,"end":126.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.86346875000001,"end":135.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.58784375000002,"end":136.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.66784375,"end":137.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.74784375000002,"end":158.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.34159375000002,"end":146.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.11596875,"end":167.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.66721875000002,"end":169.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.96221875,"end":175.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.62846875000002,"end":172.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.85159375,"end":177.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.79659375,"end":176.84721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.84721875000002,"end":176.91471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.91471875000002,"end":194.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.19471875000002,"end":200.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.22846875000002,"end":196.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":199.40909375,"end":200.87721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.53971875000002,"end":224.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.45159375,"end":280.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.82596875000002,"end":231.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.97784375,"end":232.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.25284375,"end":281.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.37096875000003,"end":281.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.97846875,"end":282.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.90221875000003,"end":284.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.04971875,"end":286.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.73721875,"end":297.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.03096875,"end":322.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":323.79471875,"end":350.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":350.25471875,"end":357.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.25346875,"end":360.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":361.30784375,"end":365.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.69534375,"end":372.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.90534375000004,"end":416.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.47159375,"end":394.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":394.48409375,"end":394.95659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.53846875000005,"end":397.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.42159375,"end":442.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.61159375000005,"end":459.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.41909375,"end":472.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.54784375,"end":483.93846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.24221875,"end":490.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.97534375000004,"end":535.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.93034375,"end":576.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.13471875,"end":551.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.97034375,"end":578.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.7378437500001,"end":591.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.9384687500001,"end":608.1047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.90784375,"end":599.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.2578437500001,"end":600.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.2734687500001,"end":609.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.31971875,"end":633.5859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.80534375,"end":639.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":639.57659375,"end":665.6147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":665.8003437500001,"end":677.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.73159375,"end":674.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.1909687500001,"end":677.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":677.27534375,"end":677.3090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":677.3090937500001,"end":721.2009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":677.39346875,"end":678.3215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":717.06659375,"end":717.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":717.9440937500001,"end":718.7878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":720.69471875,"end":726.7865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":726.90471875,"end":729.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":729.95909375,"end":731.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":731.39346875,"end":732.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":732.2878437500001,"end":738.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":739.00409375,"end":748.6059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":744.8259687500001,"end":745.8215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":746.1084687500002,"end":773.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":773.42909375,"end":774.3234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":776.1628437500001,"end":776.7365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":776.7365937500001,"end":776.8715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":776.8715937500001,"end":776.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":776.97284375,"end":777.96846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.133,"end":15.974,"text":"好,謝謝主席那再麻煩請我們許部長有請許部長"},{"start":22.914,"end":48.033,"text":"徐部長在4月15日我們在立法院有開了一個記者會就是有關於有兩位肯亞籍的專業表演人士那因為被我們移民署介入調查在今年3月的時候他已經被鑑別為人口販運被害人那這個案子不知道部長知道這個案子嗎我知道我們有掌握我們第一時間就有掌握了"},{"start":48.693,"end":65.333,"text":"對,因為這個部分我們是覺得說他當初他是在被引進的時候是以百里以公是我們的專業表演的藝術人才然後後來我們才發現事實上他來到的時候都常常被仲介帶到"},{"start":66.454,"end":95.894,"text":"像也帶到臺南的某個遊樂場去從事遊樂工作後來也被帶到我們桃園有一個農場去無償做勞動而且甚至還被仲介逼迫然後借錢度日那當然後來這兩個肯亞籍外勞也有打電話投訴到1955然後可是臺南市府派員去查去查無不法那不知道針對這一部分部長有沒有什麼看法"},{"start":98.369,"end":122.547,"text":"可是看到的是他當初仲介來是以運動藝術專業表演人白領移工可是他來到卻是做我們藍領的工作而且跟他的工作其實根本是不符合的"},{"start":123.027,"end":135.204,"text":"對,從事許可以外的工作這是違法的對,後來我們才發現居然這個百里移工他這個表演藝術人居然沒有最低工資的保障"},{"start":136.744,"end":162.27,"text":"是不是這樣?有嗎?跟委員報告他其實是有達到最低工資只是說這個最低工資外界質疑說白領用最低工資白領是4萬多嘛對不對?跟委員報告因為4萬多現在目前在法律上是像類似工程師啊類似那表演藝術工作依照文化部現在所定的資格他不是以薪資他是以他的專業我們要凸顯這部分就是說他沒有最低工資的保障"},{"start":163.03,"end":175.464,"text":"所以其實他領的錢非常的少但是居然沒有違法他還是要符合最低基本工資他還是符合的沒有符合最低白領的基本工資嘛是不是這樣"},{"start":177.927,"end":195.634,"text":"他不是屬於專技人員的白領啊。如果專技人員白領要4萬多嘛。那他按照文化部他是屬於演藝表演這種專業資格進來的。他沒有像那個要求說要給到4萬多,但是他一定要給到基本工資。就是最低的基本工資。對。"},{"start":197.114,"end":223.92,"text":"低於一般白領的基本工資嗎?是不是這樣?對啦應該應該好沒關係那我們針對這一部分我們想了解一下那如果像4月15號那一天記者會因為兩位肯亞人士也親自現身說法那我們來看一下針對他這一部分我們看一下我們針對他提出在記者會提出的違法情勢跳下一頁"},{"start":225.36,"end":251.853,"text":"針對這部分就像剛剛部長有提他在許可外工作那就違反了我們就業服務法而且他是強迫勞動又違反了我們的勞基法然後他也未投保勞保那違反了我們勞工保險條例也沒有投保健保那也違反了全民健保法而且他也沒有提繳退休金那針對我們勞工退休條例也是違反了"},{"start":252.333,"end":279.568,"text":"而且他這一部分還是被扣留了他的護照那在我們人口販運防治法也是違反我們的法令而且最主要他還限制他的人身自由那其實已經觸及到刑法那我想請問一下部長針對這以上他們記者會所陳述這些事實如果屬實的話你看看他違反了這麼多法令那針對這部分部長覺得嚴重嗎?"},{"start":281.289,"end":284.092,"text":"我們台南市的勞工局居然去稽查、檢查"},{"start":308.332,"end":322.55,"text":"回覆．他的回覆居然是說顧主無只派許可外工作．他去查緝的結果．所以他針對這部分．而且移民署已經證實他這是許可外工作．還有他也．"},{"start":323.834,"end":349.927,"text":"台南勞工局也說他沒有強迫勞動而且有給付基本工資可是依據肯亞他們說明他連基本工資都沒有領到然後移民署也證實他這個護照確實被扣留可是不知道為什麼台南勞工局去稽查說他的護照是自行保管良好那針對以上我不知道我們勞發署跟治安署這一部分到底有沒有去介入調查"},{"start":350.267,"end":351.248,"text":"所以我覺得這個事情其實"},{"start":374.803,"end":393.693,"text":"對我們來講我們覺得不可思議他已經打1955去求救了結果勞工局也去稽查也碰到他們兩位居然稽查的結果是說完全都合法完全沒有違法的事項所以我們針對這部分我希望勞動部要重視這兩個肯亞根本就是假白領、真藍領"},{"start":398.075,"end":413.265,"text":"那而且我們一直說我們現在針對目前有8萬多的逃逸外勞我一直也看不到勞動部提出一個完善的改善計畫而且針對這一部分我們現在說實在話那時候我們也有講"},{"start":414.285,"end":441.558,"text":"當然引進印度移工等等當然是因為解決我們國內勞工的問題但是我真的希望我們針對印度移工的部分在文化、語言、生活差異還有男尊女卑等等的觀念差異之下我覺得應該要提出一個完善的計畫不然我擔心這個印度移工大量的引進到時候反而造成更多的逃逸的外勞"},{"start":443.559,"end":470.828,"text":"會 這個我們會謹慎那我們也會持續的開這個諮詢會議就這些大家所關注的議題跟大家對話那也了解後續的部分大家有一些需求要怎麼做這個我們都會好好來規劃處理對 我也希望我們當然我們許部長這幾年來也很辛苦但是我也知道說我們後續新任部長何沛山那不知道他上來之後有沒有辦法接續這些業務去做處理"},{"start":472.688,"end":482.968,"text":"報告委應該沒有問題啦以他的能力跟經驗我想他一定可以把後續的一些工作因為有些工作都是持續的嘛我想何部長這沒有問題"},{"start":484.298,"end":494.77,"text":"那我請部長還是要去了解一下因為在這之前我們昨天其實還針對打電話給勞發署去詢問針對這後續這肯亞的問題我們問好像勞發署也沒有去聯繫這個當事人然後也沒有去查核這4月15日"},{"start":505.602,"end":520.393,"text":"這個勞團記者會他所開的所提出的違法事項有沒有去一一去查核他們說的到底是不是屬實那我希望這部分勞動部真的還是要去了解一下而且我們認為後續是不是"},{"start":521.554,"end":534.468,"text":"針對這些白領的部分我們是不是可以抽打這個電話來查詢然後瞭解他是不是有沒有在許可外的工作我認為這些工作應該不難我覺得我們應該要去抽查去了解這實際的狀況"},{"start":536.07,"end":549.866,"text":"是不是跟委員報告,我們第一個時間這個個案馬上跟勞工局還有專勤隊、移民署專勤隊其實就立刻去介入而且馬上進入到我們的安置保護現在因為他是人口關係被害的人,所以後續整個的一些協助我們會全程來處理"},{"start":550.987,"end":551.607,"text":"好,我希望這一部分還是要多重視一下"},{"start":579.93,"end":598.996,"text":"還有針對我們現在我們基本的工資那有很多的工會勞工朋友有在跟我們提起他說當然我們蔡英文政府針對這幾年說基本工資連6年調漲可是據我們瞭解這基本工資連8年調漲沒關係重點是基本工資這連續的調漲可是後來我們瞭解他整體勞工"},{"start":609.7,"end":633.006,"text":"勞工這個整體的實質薪資好像並不是因為基本工資調漲而去做調漲也就是說這個薪資在調漲但是我們的物價上漲卻是超過這個幅度所以基本工資跟實質薪資的調漲好像是有出入的並沒有帶動我們整體的生活也就是實質薪資並沒有跟著基本工資去做調漲"},{"start":633.917,"end":651.033,"text":"報告委員,因為實質薪資它主要是因為這幾年因為疫情還有俄烏戰爭、以哈戰爭這些國際因素、經濟情勢造成物價通膨這個當然會讓大家感受說好像薪資追不上物價的速度"},{"start":651.713,"end":675.388,"text":"但是持續來提升以勞動部負責我們是弱勢勞工、邊境勞工他的最低工資我們是持續的在提升希望保障他的這個最低的這個保障經濟生活的保障那也希望這樣能夠帶動一般的薪資能夠提升然後經濟果實呼籲企業經濟果實能夠供"},{"start":677.469,"end":692.971,"text":"所以我們基本工資的調漲也是希望帶動我們實質經常性的薪資能夠去做這個調漲也希望說讓我們勞工的生活可以過得更好可是後來有很多勞工朋友跟我們來陳情就是說因為"},{"start":694.552,"end":718.961,"text":"這個沒有脫鉤的問題他說基本工資的調漲其實幾乎都是調漲在我們的移工我們的本勞他說他們可以說是一二十年的薪資幾乎都沒有調漲他說因為他們領的並不是基本工資基本工資領取幾乎大部分都是移工所以變成說基本工資的調漲他說都是一直調到這個移工對於本勞的調漲並沒有實質上的幫助"},{"start":721.182,"end":738.008,"text":"我可以把數據給你我們每年調升基本工資本國人受益的數字就有兩百萬以上這個我可以給你那事實上法律並沒有規定移工進來要用基本工資聘他他其實進來本外勞"},{"start":739.188,"end":746.414,"text":"一致原則平等對待人的照理說他做的工作如果跟本國一樣應該是一樣的待遇所以部長你也你也稍微瞭解一下對對因為根據我們這數據齁你看這基本工資跟實質薪資的調漲齁"},{"start":754.48,"end":754.74,"text":"好,謝謝圖全集委員。"}]}},{"id":"151732","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151732","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce150333735c1deba7ede44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed0dcbf91617bdae11f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"09:59:33 - 10:13:26","影片長度":"00:13:53","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-17"},"duration":833,"end_time":"2024-04-25T10:13:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T09:59:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":319,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（9時59分）謝謝召委，有請我們立法院周秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：莊委員好。"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長好。我想這一波大家在講國會改革，你也聽到膩了！聽證調查，這實在是國會輔助的一個權力，這個在各黨各派我相信大家也沒有什麼樣的意見。倒是在國會裡面的質詢也要本於事實，我記得剛剛羅委員提到，應該要像吳召委一樣辦幾場公聽會，我記得鍾佳濱委員辦的我就參加了2場、我幫他捧場2場，現在在這裡講的好像鍾佳濱當召委審法案時沒有辦公聽會，這就不好！反而我倒認為，立法院不管各委員會審法案是很基本的嘛，不要說只有你這個老先覺寫的書，用膝蓋想也知道法案來，提案的人要上來說明一下，每天跑那麼多委員會都是這樣嘛！你那個法案拿出來之後當然要一條一條來審。秘書長，是不是這樣說？這樣比較好嘛，對吧？"],["周秘書長萬來：嗯……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是啦，我也不好意思挖洞給你跳，等一下說我害你批評別人，我今天就不談這些啦。","其實國會改革裡面有很多，有軟實力、也有整個國會的硬體部分，我記得新國會開始的時候，3月21號你第一次做立法院的業務報告，本席也針對國會擴建的問題請教過秘書長，這個問題其實很開放，我記得當初你給我的答復是，游錫堃院長也曾經跟你說明過整個擴建的過程，也期望本屆立法院可以繼續推動國會擴建，你也說你跟韓國瑜院長報告過；後續這個月初秘書長答詢的時候也講說，很極力想推動國會的擴建，關於國會擴建這樣的議題，立法院總務處會去研擬，再向韓院長做報告，這是秘書長你的講法，其實四平八穩。","那我要請教秘書長，距離上次這個議題的答詢差不多一個月時間，你有跟韓國瑜講一下嗎？他的態度到底是怎樣？"],["周秘書長萬來：報告莊委員，因為當時提的是3個月內，不過我們總務處昨天就已經簽上來了，那個簽的公文大概今天早上就送到院長室去了，就把這個……"],["莊委員瑞雄：私底下你有跟他講過嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：當時指派我接見公督盟以後，有稍微跟他報告這些院址遷建的事。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我想我們要做真的！"],["周秘書長萬來：今天已經有正式公文了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：很好。"],["周秘書長萬來：總務處的正式公文已經簽上來，另外要答復司法及法制委員會的部分因為是3個月內，裡面有些文字上……昨天晚上我沒有批、我還在看。"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長，我要講的倒不是……這個當然是必備的程序，我要講的是既然要推動，有心來推動這個才是一個重點！本黨團在這一次也將國會擴建的事宜入法──在新增的第三十三條之三，最主要是讓立法院發揮整個議事運作跟提升國會的功能，及早去規劃擴建或者遷建案，無論是擴建或者是遷建，透過入法有一個好處就是，不管誰做都沒關係，院長換人也沒關係，不要因為人事更動去影響整個進程！","接下來，我讓秘書長看一看，我不曉得你最近有沒有走到中興大樓地下室，從2月1號新科立委報到以後到現在差不多3個月了，很多有裝潢需求的辦公室也陸續都完成了，該汰換的家具也都替換了，你看整個地下室的走廊，再走到戶外，你有時候想一想，如果說立法院地下室是在辦家具展，還怕人家看這也覺得怪怪的，你知道嗎？你看看這些圖，這個應該你很熟。你看到這一屆的立法院議事攻防其實是滿激烈的，小小的一個空間裡面，你看有時候官員、委員、助理、記者，動輒上百人在一個空間裡面，其實這個空間部會官員、媒體、立委、議事人員、立委助理、黨團助理、媒體在這裡，你看這實在是很大的不便。你看你的正前方，地毯下方設有電線，請小心行走，大家都有看到吧？像貼膏藥一樣，這邊一塊那邊一塊，大家都有看到吧！上次我看國會助理也有人跌倒申請國賠，這些秘書長應該很感慨、很有感嘛！","其實每一個法律案的提出，本席倒是認為都有我們很多辛苦的國會助理的痕跡啊，譬如簽法案，一個立委要簽法案，你要去找15個人簽一簽，大家這樣跑，而立法院的研究室又散落在各地，好不容易齊全、簽好了以後，還要送去你們議事處。其實提法案有它的一個審慎性，但是有時候我在想我們不夠理想的國會的一個動線，或者說處室位置的安排，對整個立法修法的效率，它其實還是有影響啦！本院有很多的助理，我們這裡差不多有多少助理，秘書長知道嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：大概每一個委員有8到14吧？我知道進來的大概都是上千的，在一天的人事的動態……"],["莊委員瑞雄：在這裡走動的都以一千人算的嘛！本院很多的助理、議事人員、公務員，很多人是機車族，來上班一大早，差不多都在找停車位啦！秘書長還是我們立委本身當然沒這個問題，可是一大早對國會這些助理來講就是找車位的一個大戰，以助理來講，大多是停在中興的地下室，你看這個，中興的地下室最初設計只有汽車而已，所以助理在放的時候，都在汽車停車格的狹縫中去找到適合的一個停車位，運氣比較差的來就都沒有了，要停在外面要自己繳錢了。","秘書長，我要請教你，你說房子要蓋起來有很長的一段路要走，但是在完成這整個國會擴建的歷史任務之前，我們現在的各處室或者各委員會的位置分配跟動線，你可不可以先做一個檢討跟調整的評估，甚至這些停車位、機車的部分，做一個妥適的規劃？我們不要說空的、說那麼大的，請你回答。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝你的指導，今天你提的這個，事實上我在這邊以前車位問題或各方面都是經歷過這種情況啦！剛剛莊委員提的有一點，就是辦公室的配置，我倒是特別注意到這一點，可能在短期間，因為如果辦公室要變動是很大，但這個倒是可以來思考看看，是不是來研究研究。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這不是只有思考，這要快做啦！這如果都沒做，都不做，這不用簽公文的你知不知道？司法及法制委員會，我們這些位置的動線要改，喊一下要改就馬上改了，對吧？你說那些國會的助理，讓他們有一個更好的空間，我是覺得不為過，也應該啦！為什麼呢？你說從提案的修法、預算案、日常質詢到地方這些會勘，我相信都有國會助理的痕跡，其實在現在法制上面來看，你看我們國會助理的法源現在就只有在立法院組織法第三十二條「立法委員每人得置公費助理八人至十四人，由委員聘用」，這樣而已，只有在說這個而已。關於立法委員助理的行為、待遇、勞動條件這些細項，法制上也沒有一個明文的規範，但是我一直在為他們抱屈，長期一些匡住的預算就是這樣而已。有沒有可能，我們看到一些比較具體的東西以後，去思考如何做一個改進？","譬如說最近大家講的五一勞動節快到了，五一勞動節對於我們國會的助理，你說他到底要適用什麼？他當然適用勞基法啊！但問題是他現在夾在軍公教跟勞工之間，他們是最容易被忽略掉的一群，被忽略掉的一群，所以他們到底是要跟著立法院的作息來運作，還是要適用勞基法這樣就好？這很怪啊！立委來、助理沒來，也怪怪的，但他們來是適用勞基法的，秘書長難道不是這樣嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個裡面對於助理角色的一個情況，因為長期以來，從82年以後更嚴重……從88年這個法修的時候，因為雇主是立法委員……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是。但是……"],["周秘書長萬來：所以在這裡面，我知道剛才滿多委員提了，他們資格條件的限制上，這個裡面就會有兩個像現在黨團所提的這些條文，就是你第一項跟後面這一項，大概從法上來看就稍微有一點不太一樣……"],["莊委員瑞雄：秘書長，不對，法律有缺漏，為什麼你知道嗎？比如說我們現在勞基法的規定，適用勞基法的勞工在勞動節上班，工資依法加倍發給對不對？但立法院在編制相關預算上你也沒有去處理這塊，你們有編嗎？也沒有。9月，9月換你工作時，這塊特別注意一下，一般勞工……不然你在勞動節那天叫他來上班，看是不是跟平常的薪水不一樣？特別注意一下好不好，秘書長？","另外我想請教，秘書長在國會這麼多年，你看看每一年有這麼多大學的新鮮人，他們其實很想到國會裡面來，這個地方進來以後，我看立法院很多辦公室的助理這樣流來流去，久了以後我相信很多人會熱情耗盡，往往會向社會低頭，有的另謀出路，或者有的跳來跳去。其實國會助理是一個非常需要累積經驗的一個角色，對於整個民主法治的一個建構，也都有他的一個貢獻。以日本為例來看，日本他們設有政策擔當秘書資格的試驗，通過率5%，薪水月薪日幣43萬3,200元，差不多臺灣臺幣12萬，其實我們國會裡面，如果要鼓勵有志深耕國會者，讓他有對未來的職涯更有想像空間的話，至少這個部分去做一個提升，是我們可以思考的一個方向。","秘書長可能會認為這個沒辦法，立法院的預算不是想編多少就有多少錢，監督行政權的立法院預算還是要匡列在行政院主計總處的總額控管之下。但我要講的就是，院長跟秘書長如果有心的話，其實馬上就可以直接每一年編列公費助理的一些預算，這個我們才會跟立法院一起來打拚，我是覺得這樣子才合理，立委公費助理待遇的提升跟更加法制化，這是對整個民主政治運作核心一個必要的條件，軟體這個部分嘛！當然我們也必須要去防弊，不要像前陣子有去當縣市首長的人，陷入整個助理費部分的爭議，這就不好了，所以我們希望法制化，我們更希望整個國會助理的待遇可以來提升。還有我們立法院，我剛秀給秘書長看的那些照片，我們趕快去、馬上去改善啦！不要說只有研議，那不能用研議的啦！是有心、沒心而已，秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：好，謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：可以啦？"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝，我舉個例來講，我大概前兩個禮拜就為了概算編列差了兩千多萬，還特別跟主計總處那邊，請我們的主計處長去溝通，才給八百多萬，還差了一千多萬，現在正在處理中。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你算是立法院的「老先覺」啦，這如果可以幫忙解決，這些國會助理大家都會幫你鼓掌啦，好嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員、謝謝秘書長，接下來有請黃委員國昌發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-17","speakers":["鍾佳濱","范雲","羅智強","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林思銘","吳思瑤","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員高金素梅等\n23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條\n之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案；三、繼續審查\n( 一) 民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」\n案、( 二) 委員賴瑞隆等16 人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草\n案」案；四、(一)繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審\n查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」\n案、( 四 ) 繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kaaw 等19 人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(五)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)審查\n委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133401_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.03909375,"end":2.3597187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.329093750000002,"end":14.813468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.235343750000002,"end":16.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.31909375,"end":20.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.58471875,"end":33.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.73034375,"end":49.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.09909375,"end":62.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.329093750000006,"end":64.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.40471875,"end":66.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.55221875000001,"end":69.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.28596875000001,"end":72.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.45409375,"end":75.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.00221875000001,"end":79.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.13659375,"end":82.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.73534375,"end":83.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.62971875000001,"end":103.20471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.49159375,"end":148.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.85159375,"end":152.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.63159375,"end":154.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.16721875000002,"end":156.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.66471875000002,"end":156.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.90096875,"end":159.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.58409375000002,"end":159.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.85409375,"end":171.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.21971875,"end":172.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.30784375000002,"end":175.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.03721875000002,"end":183.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.98534375,"end":185.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.40284375000002,"end":203.81346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.19971875000002,"end":189.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.88096875000002,"end":226.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.52721875,"end":228.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.99096875,"end":267.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.02284375,"end":274.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.60409375,"end":285.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.72471875,"end":290.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.82096875,"end":291.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.37346875000003,"end":293.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.07784375,"end":302.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.10596875000005,"end":304.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.48971875,"end":314.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.20534375,"end":315.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.16721875,"end":317.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.34409375,"end":323.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.79471875,"end":325.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.61721875,"end":330.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.10159375,"end":339.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.06221875,"end":352.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.98846875000004,"end":353.66346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.08534375000005,"end":372.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.45784375000005,"end":375.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.80346875000004,"end":377.35596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.23346875000004,"end":392.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.02909375,"end":390.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.66159375,"end":416.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.79659375,"end":393.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.87721875000005,"end":419.86409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.62346875000003,"end":431.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.08159375,"end":433.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.27534375000005,"end":453.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.96409375,"end":456.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.33096875,"end":458.18721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.64284375000005,"end":459.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.08159375,"end":481.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.06534375,"end":491.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.84034375000005,"end":494.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.12659375000004,"end":502.12971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.19721875000005,"end":507.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.27221875000004,"end":524.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.4678437499999,"end":533.7534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.24284375,"end":543.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.52409375,"end":552.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.82221875,"end":553.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.1553437499999,"end":557.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.1928437500001,"end":566.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.30534375,"end":567.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.0265937500001,"end":580.1597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.9697187500001,"end":582.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":583.33221875,"end":584.1084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":584.6484687500001,"end":589.5590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.23409375,"end":591.2297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.02284375,"end":626.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.9878437500001,"end":629.5359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":628.87784375,"end":630.1940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":630.83534375,"end":645.4153437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.47846875,"end":646.9678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.4909687500001,"end":648.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.1784687500001,"end":650.4440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.2709687500001,"end":651.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.6884687500001,"end":653.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.9709687500001,"end":658.4428437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.2865937500001,"end":661.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.9697187500001,"end":665.9522187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.6609687499999,"end":670.9978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.0990937500001,"end":674.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":675.53721875,"end":687.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.2990937500001,"end":706.5365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":707.31284375,"end":708.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":708.61221875,"end":714.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":714.7209687500001,"end":726.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.4953437500001,"end":729.3684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":730.29659375,"end":797.9822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":799.1128437500001,"end":799.6359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":799.6359687500001,"end":800.0915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":800.0915937500001,"end":809.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":810.28409375,"end":813.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":813.9797187500001,"end":819.3459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":819.97034375,"end":823.8684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":824.0034687500001,"end":827.0578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":827.5134687500001,"end":830.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":831.22596875,"end":831.9853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":831.91784375,"end":832.9640937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":15.757,"text":"賴瑞熊發言。請。賴瑞熊發言。請。賴瑞熊發言。請。賴瑞熊發言。請。賴瑞熊發言。請。賴瑞熊發言。請。賴瑞熊發言。請。賴瑞熊發言。請。賴瑞熊發言。請。賴瑞熊發言。請。賴瑞熊發言。請。賴瑞熊發言。請。賴瑞熊發言。請。賴瑞熊發言。請。賴瑞熊發言。請。賴瑞熊發言。請。賴瑞熊發言。請。賴瑞熊發言。請。賴瑞熊發言。請。賴瑞熊發言。請。賴瑞"},{"start":19.532,"end":24.356,"text":"市長好市長好我想大家在說國會改革你聽到聲聽證調查這實在是國會輔助的一個權利這個在各黨各派我相信大家也沒有什麼樣的意見倒是在國會裡面在質詢其實也要本於事實啦我記得剛剛羅委員在提到了說這個應該要像吳委員這樣一樣吳釗偉一樣去辦幾場公聽會我記得鍾嘉賓委員在辦我就參加了兩場"},{"start":49.575,"end":50.795,"text":"立法院組織法第三十二條條"},{"start":65.601,"end":77.736,"text":"很基本的嘛,不要說只有你這個老性格寫的寫,卡特歐雄也知道說法人來提案的人要起來做說明一個,每天找一個委員就是這樣嘛,你在法人再站出來當然也要一條一條來審。"},{"start":80.268,"end":100.585,"text":"賴瑞隆不是這樣說的嗎?這樣比較好嗎?對不對?是啦!我抱歉,我以為你在挑釁,但你說我在害你,在批評別人。我今天就不談這些啦!我今天就談,其實國會改革裡面有很多啦!有軟實力也有整個國會的硬體的一個部分啦!我記得新國會開始的時候,在3月21號,你第一次在做立法院的一個業務報告,本席也針對國會擴建的問題請教過秘書長啦!"},{"start":103.607,"end":106.588,"text":"這個問題其實很開放的當初我記得你跟我的答覆是說游錫堃院長也曾經跟你說明過這個整個擴建的這樣的一個過程那也期望本屆立委、立法院可以繼續來推動國會的一個擴建那你也說你也跟韓國瑜院長報告過"},{"start":124.216,"end":134.164,"text":"那後續這個月初秘書長答詢的事也講說很極力想推動國會的一個擴建那關於國會擴建這樣的一個議題整個立法院的總務處會去研擬再向韓院長來做報告這是秘書長你的講法其實四平八穩那我要請教秘書長就是說距離上次這樣的一個這個議題的一個答詢差不多一個月時間你有跟韓國瑜這樣講一下嗎?他的態度到底是什麼?"},{"start":153.154,"end":156.397,"text":"三）委員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草"},{"start":176.175,"end":203.182,"text":"案件,指派我跟公督門接見以後,就大概有稍微跟他報告是有這些院子簽件的事了。因為今天已經是正式公文了,因為總統書的正式公文已經簽上來。另外要答覆這個我們說法制委員會因為三個月內,但有一些裡面的文字上我早上昨天晚上我是沒有批,我現在在看。"},{"start":203.942,"end":205.103,"text":"此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外"},{"start":226.576,"end":226.876,"text":"擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具擬具"},{"start":246.287,"end":273.639,"text":"一個進程我接下來讓秘書長你來看一看我不曉得你有沒有最近走到中興的一個地下室從2月1號新科立委報到以後到現在他三個月很多的裝潢需求的辦公室也陸續都完成了該汰換的家具也都替換了你看整個地下室的走廊再走到戶外你有沒有想過這要說立法院地下室是在辦家具展又怕人家看這也覺得怪怪的你知道嗎"},{"start":274.679,"end":298.743,"text":"你自己把它看看這些圖,這個應該你很熟了那你再看到這一屆的一個立法院議事工坊其實是蠻激烈的小小的一個空間裡面,你看有時候官員、委員、助理、記者、動輒上百人在一個一個空間裡面其實你看這個空間你看委部會、官員、媒體、立委、議事、領委、助理、黨團、助理、媒體在這,你看這實在是很大的"},{"start":303.611,"end":303.892,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":323.868,"end":337.752,"text":"那這些,米主長,你應該很感慨嘛,很有感嘛。其實每一個法律案的一個提出啊,本席到都認為啊,都有我們很多辛苦的國會助理的痕跡啊。例如說,呃,強化蘭赫啊。"},{"start":340.131,"end":341.572,"text":"議員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案．一）民進黨黨團擬具"},{"start":357.997,"end":371.651,"text":"有時候我在想說,我們不夠理想的國會的一個動線,或者說處事位置的一個安排對整個立法、修法的一個效率,它其實還是有影響的。你給我繼續看。本院有很多的助理,請問有多少助理,你知不知道有多少?"},{"start":378.274,"end":378.294,"text":"委員長"},{"start":395.416,"end":418.805,"text":"本院很多的助理、議事人員、公務員來上班一大早,差不多都在鐵鍋上面的人。必須訂,還是說爛,我們就立委本心當然沒這個問題。可是一大早對國會這些助理來講的話,就是找車位的一個大戰。以助理來講,大多是停在中心的地下室,你看看這個。中心的地下室最初設計只有汽車而已。"},{"start":421.006,"end":422.087,"text":"議員高金素梅等23人擬具"},{"start":438.738,"end":449.641,"text":"但是在完成這整個國會擴建的歷史任務之前,我們現在的各處事或者各委員會的位置分配跟動線,你跟人家一起做一個檢討及條件的評估,選擇這裡的聽者、委員、記者的部分,做一個妥適的規劃。我們不要說空的、說這麼大的。"},{"start":458.717,"end":459.057,"text":"案,請你回答。"},{"start":482.128,"end":506.677,"text":"短期間,我想,因為這個,如果要,辦公室的變動是很大,那這一個指導課可以來思考看看是不是...這不是只有思考,這要謹記做啦,這如果都沒做齁,如果都不做,這不用簽國門的,你知道嗎?司法法制委員會,我們這圍洞先蓋一個法蓋就須蓋啊,對不對?你說把國會的助理,讓他們有一個更好的一個空間齁"},{"start":508.342,"end":532.968,"text":"我是覺得不為過也應該啦為什麼呢你說從提案的在修法預算案日常質詢到地方這些會刊我相信都有國會助理的痕跡其實在現在法制上面來看你看國會助理的法源現在就是在立法院組織法第32條立法委員每一個人得志公會助理8人到14人由委員聘任"},{"start":535.09,"end":545.138,"text":"關於立法委員的助理的行為、待遇、勞動條件這些細項,法制上也沒有一個明文的規範。那時候我一直在想說為他們報區,長期那些框組的預算就是這樣而已。那有沒有可能啊?我們去把它"},{"start":552.964,"end":579.217,"text":"看到一些一些比較具體的東西以後去思考如何來去做一個改進像比如說最近大家講的五一勞動節要搞了嗎五一勞動節你說我們國會的助理你說他到底要適用什麼他當然適用勞基法但問題是他現在夾在軍公教跟勞工之間他們是最容易被忽略掉的一群被忽略掉的一群所以你看他們到底是要跟著立法院的組織來運作"},{"start":581.215,"end":590.837,"text":"議員賴瑞隆等16人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案件及法制法部分條文修正草案 案件及法制法部分條文修正草案 案件及法制法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":609.862,"end":629.214,"text":"所以這裏面就 我知道滿多委員有提的因為他的資格條件的限制上那這一個裏面就會有兩個是不是 像現在黨團所提的這些條文那就是你第一項跟後面這一項大概有稍微就有點從法上來看就有點 意思就不對"},{"start":630.922,"end":644.606,"text":"法律有缺漏,為什麼你知道嗎?你像比如說我們現在勞基法的規定,適用勞基法的勞工在勞動節上班,工資依法加倍發起,對不對?你理解我的意思,你的編制相關預算上,你還沒有去寫這張啊,你有沒有編?也沒有?九月,九月能有你的工作,這張特別注意一下。一般勞工,不然你在那個,你在那個勞動節那天你叫他上班。"},{"start":659.312,"end":661.475,"text":"等23人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":675.612,"end":703.209,"text":"那這個地方進來以後你看立法院我看很多辦公室的助理這樣流來流去有久了以後我相信很多人會熱情耗盡往往會向社會去低頭有的去另抹出路或者有的跳來跳去那其實國會助理是一個非常需要去累積經驗的一個地方對於整個民主法制的一個建構也都有它的一個貢獻那以日本為例來看的話日本他們設有政策擔當秘書資格的試驗"},{"start":705.45,"end":726.849,"text":"通過率五趴．月薪四十三萬、三千兩百塊的支票 。這個其實我們自己的國會裡面如果我們要鼓勵有志深耕國會者讓他有對未來的姿意更有想像空間的話至少這個部分我們去做一個提升是我們可以思考的一個對象"},{"start":730.35,"end":730.87,"text":"主席賴瑞隆等23人擬具"},{"start":753.97,"end":782.907,"text":"這個我們日本人會幫你們做來打拚啦我是覺得這樣子才合理啦立委公費助理待遇的提升更加法制化這是對整個民主政治的一個運作核心這個必要條件軟體嘛 這個部分嘛當然我們也必須要去防弊不要像前陣子去當這個縣市首長的人縣市整個助理費的部分這個爭議這就不好了所以我們希望法制化"},{"start":783.767,"end":797.598,"text":"我們更希望整個國會助理的待遇可以來提升,還有我們立法院我剛提出秀那些照片給民進黨看的,我們趕快去把它馬上去改善啦,不要說自己說的,那沒用演繹的啦,有心沒心而已,好,秘書長。"},{"start":799.144,"end":803.088,"text":"賴瑞隆等16人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案件及其主席負責,其主席負責,其主席負責,其主席負責,其主席負責"},{"start":824.068,"end":826.313,"text":"理財省立法院老先鋼,這如果讓到該官,國會這裡的助理大家都會把你打破褲子,好不好?"}]}},{"id":"151731","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151731","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce1501535d67247e04f520df1bb4ac2af973c68e374cd8c4bed09e7b35facefec5f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:02:12 - 10:13:36","影片長度":"00:11:24","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":684,"end_time":"2024-04-25T10:13:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T10:02:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":316,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時2分）主席好，有請王次長。"],["主席：有請王次長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：次長早安。我想其實剛剛大家都已經聽到，有很多人在關心兒少的頻道跟節目，我相信其實我們在公共電視上面也挹注了很多的資源，但是相對來講，資源上是不是有分配不均，我們等一下再來稍微討論一下。我想針對兒少節目，目前為止，臺灣的自製率幾乎是全球倒數，當然其實我們也希望能夠把這樣子的一個狀況在這幾年當中改善，既然我們已經發現問題，而且其實這是一個非常大的問題，因為兒少節目對於孩童的影響，有可能會是一輩子，當然兒童在成長的過程中，他們整個心理結構，或者是他們心理的一個素質，其實從3歲到5歲、到7歲可能都會有不同的一個細微的發展跟不同的變化，所以針對這個部分，在兒少節目當中，我們更需要挹注更大量的資源，來提供兒少更好的、優質的一個節目，我相信這一點大家應該都認同，對吧？"],["王次長時思：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：次長知道慕尼黑兒童影展的宗旨嗎？"],["王次長時思：請教委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，慕尼黑兒童影展的宗旨是讓孩子們能夠從影片上看到他們成長的問題，也能夠從影片上看到的成長問題當中去得到答案，我想這是非常好的一個宗旨，也值得我們共同來學習。但是我們可以從這張表看到目前臺灣兒少節目製作的時數，2023年的還沒有出來，這些數據是文策院這邊的產業調查報告所顯示的。"],["王次長時思：是2022年的，沒錯。"],["郭委員昱晴：從2019年的1,584小時到2020年的1,243小時，一直到2021年的994小時，還有2022年的890小時，到現在為止，我相信應該是更低，這一點應該沒錯吧？"],["王次長時思：我們希望在今（2024）年，也就是從公視的兒少頻道整體策略展開之後會有很重大的改善，我想兒少節目在整體製作環境上的量能不足，這是臺灣長期以來的危機，包括整體收視習慣的改變，也導致願意投資在兒少節目上的產業跟資金來得更少，這就是為什麼更需要政府的投入跟支持。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為就我過去在影視產業當中所觀察到的一個現象，所有的戲劇類節目、所有的節目類型當中，其實兒少的節目是最難製作的。"],["王次長時思：是，它的難度高，經費也高。"],["郭委員昱晴：相對來講，它的成本也最低，我說的成本最低是他們所花費的、能夠運用在兒少節目的成本相對是很低的。"],["王次長時思：是，每集的製作費用。"],["郭委員昱晴：我從一個同業的口中知道，他們其實很用心在製作兒少的節目，但是他們的經費真的非常、非常地辛苦，包含實境節目，1集可能只有15萬，你想想看，1集15萬我們能夠做些什麼？"],["王次長時思：是，所以包括政府的補助資金，以及投資的資金跟民間合資、合製的資金，這些要帶動，才有可能改善。"],["郭委員昱晴：當然，次長，我們當然也希望是從我們的政府開始做起，但是像之前，我們舉個例子來講，科普教育節目其實就有比較龐大的一個資源可以挹注，因為是國科會贊助的，這點您知道嗎？"],["王次長時思：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，為什麼我們不能從國家開始做起？剛剛聽下來，其實現在我們所有的資源幾乎只有投注在公共電視上，那其他的頻道，我們不能再仰賴民間。我們來看下一張圖，這是國際青少年跟媒體教育中心提供的一個2018年的資料，我不曉得這一張圖，所有在場的與會人士有沒有看過？好，我們來看一下，從左邊依序是自製、中間橘色的部分是跨國合製，以及外購的節目，讓我們非常非常難過的是，看到臺灣的兒童節目頻道，外購的節目幾乎超過90%。另外，我們自己本身自製的兒少節目居然只有8%。我們再回過頭來看一下左邊數過來的第三個，古巴，在2007年他們的自製節目本來只有6%，但是後來他們引進一些國外的資源，包含一些外國的團隊來跟他們共同合作之後，他們的自製節目在2018年已經超過了33%，超過了5倍，臺灣為什麼不做呢？"],["王次長時思：是，這就是我們接下來應該要努力追上的地方，我想整個自製比例偏低、整個國際合資、合製、民間資金的引入偏低，其實是現在整體兒少影視音環境的一個重要的問題。"],["郭委員昱晴：再來，很多人都會提到兒少節目製作的人才是不足的。"],["王次長時思：對，所以也要展開人才孵育計畫。"],["郭委員昱晴：但是我們從很多大學相關的影視科系當中觀察，其實這個部分就沒有在鼓勵啊，所以這邊人才的培養其實是斷層的，我們也憂慮這個斷層，但這個部分我們是不是可以從文化部、教育部，跨部會來做一個研議？讓我們在學校端就有人才的產出，也願意投注一些資源在他們的身上，提高製作的費用，這樣子我們的兒少節目才有未來、才有將來。"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，我想不管是跟學校的合作、人才的孵育，這個都可以展開，跟教育部的合作也沒有什麼問題，但是還是要說明，就是在整體的這個影視音製作的環境，它還是要有市場驅動，這也是為什麼我們把第一目標放在跟民間的產製來做結合，因為如果沒有市場需求驅動的話，其實學校的扶助或者是人才的培育，它如果沒有辦法產出那個量能，市場還是過小。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，但我們不能倚靠民間。"],["王次長時思：是，自製的部分一定也要提升。"],["郭委員昱晴：就像我剛剛舉古巴的例子，我們不能只靠民間。"],["王次長時思：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們是不是可以從政府，從我們所有的部會開始做起？我們去引進一些比方說國外的製作團隊，請他們來臺灣做一個跨國的合作。"],["王次長時思：是，國際合製的部分。"],["郭委員昱晴：把我們自製節目的產值跟所有的品質、量能提高，這個是不是可以做？"],["王次長時思：可以，其實公視現在也有透過兒童影展跟這些國際兒童主題的論壇，來結合這些技術跟人才孵育。"],["郭委員昱晴：因為我們看到，其實公共電視現在有很多擴大的徵案，但這些擴大的徵案，包含所謂的親職談話性的一個節目，1,680萬有60集，沒有錯吧？有60集，但是其實1集我們扣掉平均的一些成本，包含棚內、人才、我們所有的攝影器材等等，其實這些人員的費用扣除之後，可用的餘額真的也不高……"],["王次長時思：其實整體資源還是不高。"],["郭委員昱晴：一集大概就是28萬含稅。"],["王次長時思：整體資源來說，其實以公視6億的投注，相對於整個兒少影視音產製需要的市場仍然是不足。"],["郭委員昱晴：雖然6億聽起來很多，但是我們也希望其他更沒有被重視到的一些頻道，他們也願意來投注這樣的製作產量。"],["王次長時思：我想公視是起點，因為它有公共的責任。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們希望由起點開始，今年8月之後，我們可以真的把……"],["王次長時思：聯合其他的頻道。"],["郭委員昱晴：下一次我們再來討論的時候，我們能夠自製的比率是提高的，可以嗎？"],["王次長時思：可以，我們一定會努力來做。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，接下來，本席其實之前接到了一個跟公共電視共同出品的戲劇的陳情，叫「不夠善良的我們」，我們先來聽一下，也讓現場的朋友來聽一下聲音的變化。","（播放影片）"],["郭委員昱晴：好，這是第一段。再來聽第二段。","（播放影片）"],["郭委員昱晴：次長有聽出來兩段的差別了嗎？"],["王次長時思：有，這個問題其實已經有跟我們反映，這個問題在公視這一端其實沒有特別去控制這個音量，主要是經過有線電視的頻道播出的時候，會導致這個音量有變化，通傳會大概也有要求有線電視業者應該要先進行音量測試這樣的調整……"],["郭委員昱晴：因為這個問題已經存在好幾年了……"],["王次長時思：對，所以其實我們也的確……"],["郭委員昱晴：一直到現在我們大家都在想，我們看到本土很好的戲劇的產出，但是聲音是靈魂啊！剛剛在第二段，因為我們系統整個均質化的結果，所有聲音就全部都大聲起來了，變成雜音很多……"],["王次長時思：這個我們有在配合通傳會來……"],["郭委員昱晴：變成我們原本應該要聽到的一些所謂戲劇的精髓，我們應該要呈現出來什麼樣的整個所有藝術上的表現，真的被大打折扣了，這對很多創作者，尤其是那天其實徐導演有特別來，杜篤之也特別來跟我一起開會……"],["王次長時思：但它的關鍵可能會出現在系統業者端，所以恐怕是需要來做協調。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以這個部分，我們希望文化部可以跟NCC真的好好地來討論一下，到底這個聲音……"],["王次長時思：有，我們已經有在合作。"],["郭委員昱晴：我知道，他們隔天馬上就已經開會了，我知道，所以我們也追一下這個進度，這個部分真的也要麻煩我們文化部了，好嗎？"],["王次長時思：好的，沒有問題。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝郭昱晴委員。","我們接下來請陳秀寳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","葉元之","陳培瑜","何欣純","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","范雲","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","林月琴","陳冠廷","羅智強"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫─ 公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.215343750000002,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.31221875,"end":10.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.99971875,"end":12.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.809093750000002,"end":16.551593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.93971875,"end":17.074718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.73284375,"end":28.684718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.17409375,"end":30.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.03034375,"end":50.453468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.790968750000005,"end":61.523468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.72596875000001,"end":89.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.89471875000001,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.95784375000001,"end":90.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.07159375,"end":94.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.34096875,"end":95.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.03284375000001,"end":109.17846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.71846875000001,"end":132.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.48784375000001,"end":129.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.49971875,"end":135.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.16159375,"end":142.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.16471875000002,"end":146.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.84346875,"end":149.03721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.03721875000002,"end":149.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.43784375,"end":152.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.08721875,"end":156.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.98534375,"end":174.36659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.85221875000002,"end":172.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.11346875,"end":190.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.49096875,"end":190.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.22471875000002,"end":216.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.23659375000003,"end":197.80596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.60471875000002,"end":224.18159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.19034375,"end":222.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.32096875000002,"end":262.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.08284375,"end":264.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.71096875,"end":288.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.72409375,"end":295.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.40659375,"end":321.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.97221875,"end":327.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.23721875,"end":333.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.10534375000003,"end":336.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.87721875,"end":352.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.45846875,"end":343.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.70159375000003,"end":357.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.42659375,"end":374.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.60534375000003,"end":377.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.71034375000005,"end":404.52471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.87096875000003,"end":428.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.68909375000004,"end":408.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.28346875000005,"end":409.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.02034375000005,"end":421.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.90096875,"end":427.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.42409375000005,"end":436.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.95471875000004,"end":465.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.28346875000005,"end":465.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.44346875,"end":465.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.47721875,"end":466.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.03409375,"end":466.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.40096875,"end":474.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.56034375,"end":473.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.63596875,"end":487.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.98034375000003,"end":489.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.94596875,"end":515.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.6028437500001,"end":553.2778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.6609687499999,"end":559.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.4497187500001,"end":562.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":600.78096875,"end":601.2534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.53159375,"end":603.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":603.85221875,"end":603.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.7547187499999,"end":608.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.7122187500001,"end":626.1609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.74596875,"end":608.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.1609687499999,"end":626.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.86971875,"end":626.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.90346875,"end":660.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.92034375,"end":628.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.52534375,"end":645.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.25721875,"end":658.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.3203437500001,"end":664.0790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":661.9865937500001,"end":669.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.4878437500001,"end":668.7703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.1584687500001,"end":680.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.6897187500001,"end":671.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":674.3390937500001,"end":674.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.0222187500001,"end":679.7053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.29159375,"end":683.0803437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.28,"end":11.89,"text":"主席好 有請王次長好 有請王次長"},{"start":15.839,"end":38.58,"text":"市長早安我想其實剛剛大家都已經聽到有很多人在關心所謂的兒少的一個頻道跟節目啦那我相信其實我們在公共電視上面也挹注了很多的資源就是在公共電視那但是相對的來講是不是在資源上的一個分配不均呢我們等一下稍微再來討論一下喔那我想"},{"start":39.902,"end":61.218,"text":"針對所謂的兒少節目台灣目前為止我們的自治率幾乎是全球倒數那當然其實我們也希望能夠把這樣子的一個狀況能夠在這幾年當中我們既然已經發現問題其實這是一個非常大的問題因為兒少節目其實對於孩童的影響有可能會是一輩子"},{"start":62.118,"end":87.791,"text":"當然其實兒童在成長的過程中他們的整個所有的心理的結構或者是他們的心理的一個素質其實3歲到5歲到7歲他可能都有不同的一個細微的一個發展跟不同的一個變化所以針對這個部分其實在兒少節目當中我們更需要挹注更大量的一個資源來提供給兒少更好的優質的一個節目我相信這一點大家應該都認同對吧好"},{"start":91.133,"end":108.984,"text":"市長知道慕尼黑兒童影展他們的宗旨嗎請教委員慕尼黑他們的兒童影展他們的宗旨是讓孩子們能夠從影片上看到他們成長的問題也能夠從影片上看到他們成長問題當中去得到答案"},{"start":109.784,"end":130.47,"text":"我想這是非常好的一個宗旨也值得我們一起共同來學習但是我們可以從這張表看到目前台灣兒少節目製作的時數這個2023年還沒有出來這些數據是文策院這邊產業調查報告所顯示的從2019年的1584小時到2020年的1243小時"},{"start":136.252,"end":156.147,"text":"一直到2021年的994小時還有2022年的890小時到現在為止我相信應該是更低這一點應該沒錯吧我們希望在今年2024年也就是從公視在兒少頻道整體的策略展開之後"},{"start":157.048,"end":157.508,"text":"因為就我過去在"},{"start":176.645,"end":178.506,"text":"影視產業當中其實我也觀察到一個現象所有的戲劇類的節目所有的節目類型當中其實兒少的節目是最難製作的相對的來講它的成本也最低"},{"start":191.294,"end":214.531,"text":"我說的所謂的成本最低是他們所花的能夠運用在兒少節目的成本是相對的很低我從一個同業當中的口中知道他們其實很用心在製作兒少的節目但是他們的經費真的非常非常的辛苦包含實境節目一集可能只有15萬你想想看一集15萬我們能夠做些什麼"},{"start":216.773,"end":237.398,"text":"是,所以包括政府的補助資金以及投資的資金跟民間合資合智的資金這些要帶動才有可能改善當然這是次長我們當然也希望是從我們的政府開始做起但是像之前我們舉個例子來講科普教育節目它其實就有比較龐大的一個資源可以挹注因為是國科會贊助的這一點您知道嗎?"},{"start":241.399,"end":259.946,"text":"為什麼我們不能從國家開始做起而現在其實我們把所有的資源剛剛聽下來幾乎只有投注在公共電視上那其他的頻道我們不能再仰賴民間我們來看下一張圖在國際青少年跟媒體教育中心這是提供的一個2018年的資料我不曉得這張資料所有在場的與會的人士你們看過這張圖嗎"},{"start":265.745,"end":286.526,"text":"好 我們來看一下這個是從左邊依序是字字以及中間的橘色的部分是跨國合制以及外購的節目我們非常非常難過的是看到台灣所謂的兒童節目的頻道外購的節目幾乎超過90%以上"},{"start":289.761,"end":295.433,"text":"另外我們自己本身自製的兒少的節目居然只有百分之八"},{"start":296.485,"end":318.064,"text":"我們可以再回過頭來看一下左邊過來的第三個古巴他們自從在2007年他們的自製節目本來只有6%但是後來他們引進一些國外包含一些外國的團隊跟他們來做共同的一個合作之後他們的自製節目在2018年已經超過了33%超過了5倍台灣為什麼不做呢?"},{"start":322.071,"end":325.896,"text":"我們可不可以因為再來很多人都會提到所謂的兒少節目的製作的人才是不足的"},{"start":342.635,"end":356.42,"text":"但是我們從很多的大學影相關的影視科系當中其實這個部分就沒有在鼓勵啊所以這邊的人才的培養其實是斷層的我們也憂慮這個斷層但這個部分我們是不是可以從文化部、教育部我們跨部會來做這樣子的一個演繹讓我們在學校端就有人才的產出"},{"start":368.544,"end":369.264,"text":"拜託文化部次長列席"},{"start":398.37,"end":403.331,"text":"但我們不能只依靠民間喔就像我剛剛以古巴的例子我們不能只靠民間我們是不是可以從我們的政府從我們的整個所有的部會開始做起我們去引進一些比方說國外的一些製作的團隊他們來到台灣來跟我們做一個跨國的合作"},{"start":421.516,"end":421.776,"text":"郭昱晴議員"},{"start":436.493,"end":436.593,"text":"郭昱晴"},{"start":457.868,"end":474.497,"text":"其實這些人員的費用扣除之後可用的餘額真的也不高一級大概就是28萬含稅整體資源來說其實以公視6億的投注來說相對於整個兒少影視影產自需要市場仍然是不足"},{"start":475.963,"end":500.77,"text":"雖然6億聽起來很多但是我們也希望其他更沒有被重視到的一些頻道他們也願意來投注這樣子的一個製作的產量我們希望由起點開始今年8月之後我們可以真的把下一次我們再來討論的時候我們能夠支持的這樣子的一個頻率是提高的 可以嗎?可以 我們一定會努力來做"},{"start":502.33,"end":508.579,"text":"接下來本席在這邊其實之前接到了一個跟公共電視共同出品的一個戲劇的陳情叫《不夠善良的我們》我們先來聽一下我們也讓現場的朋友來聽一下聲音的變化"},{"start":552.52,"end":553.101,"text":"好,這是第一段再來聽第二段,這裡"},{"start":606.809,"end":623.839,"text":"市長有聽出來兩段的差別了嗎?有 這個問題其實已經有跟我們反映那這個問題其實在公視這一段它其實沒有特別去控制這個音量它主要是經過有線電視的頻道播出的時候會導致這個音量的變化那通常會大概也有要求就是說有線電的業者應該要先進行音量的測試這樣的調整"},{"start":625.02,"end":654.243,"text":"因為這個問題已經存在好幾年了一直到現在其實我們大家都在想我們看到本土很好的戲劇的產出但是聲音是靈魂啊剛剛在第二段因為我們的系統整個所有的均質化的結果就所有聲音全部都大聲起來了變成雜音很多變成我們原本應該要聽到的一些所謂的戲劇的精髓我們應該要呈現出來什麼樣的一個整個所有藝術上的一個表現真的被大打折扣了"},{"start":654.463,"end":655.204,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝主席好 謝謝 謝謝郭昱晴"}]}},{"id":"151730","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151730","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce152b1be0a2ef0e3369c97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed043ec86b666c9fb855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"10:02:44 - 10:12:11","影片長度":"00:09:27","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":567,"end_time":"2024-04-25T10:12:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T10:02:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":478,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（10時2分）謝謝主席，我們請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["許部長銘春：黃委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。今天好幾位委員都覺得部長是勞動部任期最長的一個部長，我相信部長在這6年多當中，應該有很多感想，也有很多事情在剩下不到1個月時間內，可能也沒辦法去完成的。我想請教部長，你覺得在這6年當中，一直到現在，你覺得還有什麼地方很可惜，沒有在你任內去把它完成的？"],["許部長銘春：當然就是攸關我們廣大勞工退休、經濟、生活安全的勞保年金改革，這是非常複雜的議題，也是一個大工程，雖然沒有完成，但至少我做到一點就是撥補。我跟委員報告，從2020開始撥補200億到今年的1,200億，再加上特別預算，整個撥補金額達到2,670億，它的確讓我們整個基金的財務穩定，我也跟委員報告，去年的基金餘額創新高，去年的餘額達8,700多億，因為有這些撥補的挹注，再加上我們同仁也非常辛苦，勞工的老本，大家很努力的去投資、運用，為他們獲取更好的報酬。其實我覺得讓我們基金能夠穩定、讓勞工安心之外，當然其他的面向，可能還要大家再繼續溝通，然後大家集思廣益，能夠求取共識，再繼續往後走。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以部長認為在你任內可能比較遺憾的就是勞保年金的改革，沒辦法在你任內去把它完成。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：因為部長的經驗非常豐富，在基層也有很多工會都覺得部長是一個很貼近民意的部長，而且部長也時常到地方傾聽這些工會的聲音，所以我們也希望未來你跟新任的何部長能夠有一些經驗的傳承，不論是移工的議題或者是低薪的議題，或者是我們勞保年金改革的議題，未來要怎麼做，我覺得這也是一個很好的經驗傳承，剛剛大家都很關心這個部分，而這個經驗的傳承也是非常的重要，所以也請部長未來能夠提供更多的經驗，讓我們的準部長可以很快地上手。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為我跟何準部長，不僅是公務上的好同事，其實這幾年的相處，也變成了好朋友、好姐妹，他有任何需要我來提供一些我的經驗等等，我都非常樂意來協助他，這個都沒有問題。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。部長今天特別提到就業服務法上路超過30年了，剛剛也有幾位委員提到這部法應該要大修了，我針對移工的議題想請教部長，關於移工的議題，尤其我們勞動部跟印度簽MOU的時候，很多人就很關心，屆時會有另外一個國家的移工來源國，這對臺灣來講是好的；但有更多人會希望未來是不是可以用直接聘僱的方式，我也看到，勞動部到目前為止是採雙軌，一個是直聘，一個是透過仲介，但我看到直聘的比例真的是太低了，為什麼直聘的比例這麼低？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，有時候這就是雇主他的選擇，當然過去的直聘也有可能比較不容易使用的缺點，再加上主要是有些來源國像越南、印尼，其實對這個部分是消極的，他們不希望走直聘，所以這都造成我們直聘的功效一直不彰，就這個部分，針對未來新的來源國印度，我們希望能夠將重點擺在這，跟它談出一個好的直聘模式來引進印度的移工，我想這也是現在朝野各界大家所期待的。我覺得大家的關心、大家的期待也可以讓我們後續的工作層級會議、我們在跟印度方談的時候，可以做為一個參據，就是我們的民意是這樣子、我們委員們的希望是這樣子，其實這對雙方都好，對雇主也好，對它的移工的保障等各方面是不是會更周全……"],["黃委員秀芳：現在我們是採雙軌，可是為什麼直聘的比例，感覺就是不到百分之一，如果是這樣子的話，是不是因為你們的整個流程太繁瑣？"],["許部長銘春：對，其實這幾年……"],["黃委員秀芳：如果業者要來申請的話，也不是那麼容易，反觀透過仲介就是有人直接服務，但我擔心的是，未來如果可以直聘的話，你們需要更多的人力，可是我發現我們很多的公部門，只要是這一種的，可能你們就會變成委外去經營，這樣的委外經營，跟後面透過仲介來做，好像也沒有什麼兩樣！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為組改以後精簡人事，但是我們現在公務員其實很辛苦，事情越做越多。"],["黃委員秀芳：是啊！"],["許部長銘春：像我們的移工管理組就不到70人，我們要管理75萬的移工，真的是非常非常辛苦，有時候實在是不忍苛責他們，所以這個部分就是沒有辦法，但我也謝謝行政院人事行政總處的支持，它有給我一些員額，但是人要補上來也不容易啊！因為大家一看到就知道這個單位很辛苦，不一定要進來；第二個，像我們移工管理組的人才培養是需要時間的，因為我們移工管理的法令多如牛毛，沒有相當時間的培養，還有實務的操作，其實沒有辦法很快上手，所以這些都造成我們在人力上會比較困難；像我們現在的外國人事務中心，直聘就沒有辦法做，我人就這麼多，我沒有委外，你要叫我同仁怎麼做？做不來啊！當然我們現在就儘量把它科技化、數位化，這些未來都是可以努力的。"],["黃委員秀芳：可是我覺得這個文書流程應該可以簡化。"],["許部長銘春：我們都在持續優化，報告委員，我都跟同仁要求要簡政便民，簡政不僅讓人民易於使用，也減輕自己的負擔，所以這都是我們要精進的方向，因此，我們會持續來檢討。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我們看到的是你們目前已經有雙軌制了，可是看到直聘的成效，我覺得真的非常非常的低落，所以未來印度移工要過來的話，如果要用直聘、直接聘僱的方式，你們所需要的人力應該也是更多。"],["許部長銘春：這個就要拜託委員支持。"],["黃委員秀芳：未來當然是全力支持。可是你們可能也要去考慮，就是你們現在是70幾個人來管理……"],["許部長銘春：75萬的移工。"],["黃委員秀芳：75萬的移工，未來如果直接聘僱的話，業務量勢必更多，所以你們需要更多人。為此，我希望你們能讓一些文書流程更簡便，讓想申請的人可以透過網路直接申請，即便遇到事情，也可以透過網路直接詢問，如此也許可以讓人力再精簡一點，否則直接聘僱的話，那我覺得真的需要太多、太多人力了，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員秀芳：另外，我們也非常感謝部長，很多工會理事長都說要給部長誇獎一下，我也覺得部長做得不錯。接下來就是要把好的經驗傳承下去，需要改進的、需要繼續延續的，部長可以給準部長一些經驗傳承。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員秀芳：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃秀芳委員的發言。下一位我們請涂權吉委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.1359687500000004,"end":4.705343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.9372187499999995,"end":6.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.72971875,"end":46.133468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.13096875,"end":35.384093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.58909375,"end":54.87471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.98909375,"end":52.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.15346875,"end":53.60909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.431593750000005,"end":58.907843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.87846875,"end":58.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.07659375,"end":65.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.31659375,"end":62.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.704718750000005,"end":62.721593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.04596875,"end":72.25596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.57659375,"end":77.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.19659375,"end":74.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.39846875,"end":79.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.33909375,"end":81.09846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.09846875000001,"end":81.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.26721875,"end":91.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.32971875000001,"end":86.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.46471875,"end":86.80221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.67096875,"end":89.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.00846875,"end":90.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.43846875000001,"end":98.80034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.20534375000001,"end":99.66096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.16721875,"end":101.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.41596875,"end":115.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.50784375,"end":107.87909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.51971875000001,"end":113.12721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.47284375000001,"end":123.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.58971875,"end":188.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.01471875000001,"end":131.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.31409375,"end":132.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.40721875,"end":157.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.56471875,"end":175.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.44159375,"end":180.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.11971875,"end":204.80909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.39284375000003,"end":195.81471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.67034375,"end":202.14284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.64471875,"end":204.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.94409375,"end":222.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.71034375000002,"end":216.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.65534375000001,"end":217.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.74721875,"end":262.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.07659375000003,"end":248.22846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.44784375,"end":248.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.88596875000002,"end":253.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.49346875,"end":253.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.86034375000003,"end":255.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.68721875000003,"end":255.72096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.79159375,"end":281.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.38409375000003,"end":278.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.91096875,"end":296.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.96159375,"end":282.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.93159375,"end":285.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.43721875,"end":289.48784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.93409375000005,"end":296.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.44034375,"end":297.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.53721875,"end":309.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.20346875,"end":300.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.27034375,"end":304.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.68721875,"end":331.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.56409375000004,"end":314.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.98971875,"end":318.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.48221875,"end":325.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.49409375000005,"end":337.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.53096875,"end":338.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.06659375000004,"end":341.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.88471875000005,"end":346.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.89659375,"end":354.47346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.25909375000003,"end":351.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.65534375000004,"end":352.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.47346875,"end":354.89534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.84471875,"end":363.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.04159375,"end":368.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.68221875,"end":375.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.00659375000004,"end":372.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.84596875,"end":374.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.61784375,"end":380.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.63846875,"end":382.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.35534375000003,"end":381.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.92471875,"end":390.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.69659375000003,"end":385.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.55721875,"end":386.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.02471875000003,"end":400.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.19721875000005,"end":394.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.48784375,"end":397.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.84596875000005,"end":405.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.43596875000003,"end":411.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.73096875000005,"end":407.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.75596875,"end":410.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.67971875,"end":439.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.57784375,"end":415.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.94909375000003,"end":416.03346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.05409375000005,"end":419.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.44221875000005,"end":419.54346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.29784375,"end":425.31471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.55096875000004,"end":425.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.36409375000005,"end":433.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.08096875,"end":436.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.72221875,"end":437.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.72596875000005,"end":442.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.12659375000004,"end":441.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.78471875,"end":446.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.90659375,"end":445.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.03721875,"end":450.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.07034375,"end":450.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.35721875,"end":452.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":450.39096875,"end":450.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.15846875000005,"end":460.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.03971875,"end":457.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.53721875,"end":459.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.72284375000004,"end":459.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.41471875,"end":462.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.03471875,"end":462.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.30471875,"end":462.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.35534375000003,"end":462.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":462.49034375,"end":462.50721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.50721875000005,"end":483.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.24909375000004,"end":467.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.77159375,"end":471.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.83909375,"end":471.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.94034375,"end":472.29471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.91409375,"end":478.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.29721875,"end":485.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.05221875,"end":532.1840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.33721875000003,"end":497.87721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.8490937500001,"end":516.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.38471875,"end":517.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.40346875,"end":532.8759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.8928437500001,"end":535.4240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.4240937500001,"end":535.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.50846875,"end":536.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":535.8628437500001,"end":537.9553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.74034375,"end":537.0947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.1284687500001,"end":543.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.3172187499999,"end":555.7078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.04534375,"end":564.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.74034375,"end":565.5290937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.517,"end":6.579,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請部長。有請部長。黃委員好。部長好。部長今天好幾位委員都覺得部長是在這個任內這個勞動部任期最長的一個部長。那我相信部長應該也在這6年多當中應該有很多感想,那也有很多事情是"},{"start":30.436,"end":34.68,"text":"你覺得你在這6年當中一直到現在你還有什麼覺得說很可惜沒有在你任內去把它完成的?"},{"start":46.836,"end":61.398,"text":"其實報告委員當然就是攸關我們廣大勞工退休經濟生活安全的勞保年金改革這個是非常複雜的議題也是一個大工程不過我覺得雖然沒有完成但是我至少做到一點就是撥補"},{"start":62.78,"end":71.949,"text":"我跟委員報告因為從2020開始那撥補200億到今年的1200億再加上特別預算我們其實整個撥補金額達到2670億那它的確讓我們整個財務基金的財務"},{"start":80.35,"end":80.37,"text":"拜訪議員"},{"start":100.162,"end":115.538,"text":"議員會議員會議"},{"start":115.618,"end":118.601,"text":"所以部長會認為在你任內可能比較遺憾的就是這個勞保年金的改革沒辦法在你任內去把它完成嗎?"},{"start":132.372,"end":155.843,"text":"那我也希望就是說部長因為你經驗也非常豐富那其實在基層有很多工會也覺得部長是一個很貼近民意的一個部長因為部長也時常到地方去請聽這些工會的聲音所以我們也希望就是說部長未來希望你也跟這個新任的這個部長"},{"start":157.824,"end":184.65,"text":"獲獲獲獲獲獲獲獲"},{"start":185.03,"end":204.085,"text":"這個準部長能夠有．可以很快的來上手?這個報告委員因為我跟何準部長不僅是公務上的好同事其實這幾年相處也變成好朋友、好姐妹那我想他有任何需要我來提供一些我的經驗的我都非常樂意來跟他協助這個都沒有問題"},{"start":204.986,"end":233.231,"text":"好那部長今天特別提到就是說有關我們這個就業服務法上路超過30年那應該剛剛也有幾位委員覺得說應該要大修了那我針對就是移工的這個議題我想請部長請教部長就是說這個移工的議題在尤其在我們這個勞動部這邊跟印度這邊簽MOU的時候那很多人就很關心就是說新有更"},{"start":233.971,"end":259.71,"text":"另外一個國家的這個移工來源國對台灣來講是好的那更多人會希望就是說未來那是不是用這個直接聘僱的這個方式直接聘僱那我也看到就是勞動部也到目前為止你們是有雙軌就是一個是職聘一個是有透過仲介那我看到職聘的這個部分我覺得這個比例真的是太低了"},{"start":261.175,"end":281.236,"text":"為什麼職聘的這個比例這麼低?因為當然這是僱主他有時候就是他的選擇當然過去的職聘也有他可能比較不容易使用的這個缺點所以我覺得這個部分當然還有加上主要是有些來源國像越南、印尼他其實對這個部分是消極的"},{"start":282.017,"end":295.305,"text":"他們不希望走職聘所以這都造成說看起來我們職聘的功效一直不髒那這個部分我是覺得說因為新的來源國印度我們是希望能夠重點"},{"start":297.606,"end":298.187,"text":"對雙方都好啦。"},{"start":326.07,"end":334.694,"text":"對僱主也好對他的移工的保障各方面是不是會更周全?其實我看到就是說我們這個職聘現在目前是雙軌可是為什麼職聘的這個這個"},{"start":339.11,"end":339.63,"text":"但是我發現我們很多的公部門"},{"start":368.775,"end":388.75,"text":"只要是這一種的,可能你們就變成委外,就變成委外去經營。那這樣委外經營跟後面就是有仲介這樣好像也沒什麼兩樣。報告,因為土改又精簡人事,但是我們其實現在工人很辛苦啊,事情越做越多啊。是啊。那你看我們一個移工管理組,不到70人。"},{"start":391.049,"end":391.109,"text":"主席"},{"start":411.764,"end":438.613,"text":"像我們這個移工管理組的人才培養那是要時間的因為我們的移工管理的法令多如牛毛你沒有相當的時間的培養還有實務的操作其實沒有辦法很快上手所以都造成我們人力上會比較困難那像這種職聘你說像我們的現在外國人事務中心職聘那沒有辦法我人就這麼多我沒有委外那你要叫我同仁怎麼做做不來當然我們現在就盡量把它"},{"start":439.853,"end":439.993,"text":"你檢證不僅讓"},{"start":453.206,"end":453.346,"text":"我們會持續來檢討。"},{"start":472.475,"end":485.211,"text":"所以未來如果說這個印度移工過來的話如果說用直聘直接聘僱的這個方式那這個你們所需要的這個人力應該也是更多是那這個要拜託委員支持當然當然是支持就是說"},{"start":488.034,"end":512.78,"text":"未來當然是全力支持可是就是說你們可能要去考慮就是說你們現在是七十幾個人來管理這些七十五萬的移工那未來如果說直接聘僱的話那這個業務量是更多耶這個業務量更多那你們需要的更多人那當然我也是希望就是說你們能夠把這個一些文書的這個流程"},{"start":513.2,"end":513.22,"text":"好,對。"},{"start":535.757,"end":535.897,"text":"好,謝謝雯"},{"start":566.452,"end":566.539,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151729","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151729","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce155f5cd8d7d7b8f7e4c97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed0092caf3064e3a5735ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"09:52:11 - 10:02:38","影片長度":"00:10:27","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":627,"end_time":"2024-04-25T10:02:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T09:52:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":385,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（9時52分）主席好，請勞動部許部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：邱委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：部長好。部長，你作為史上任期最長的勞動部長，當然我很遺憾你沒有留任，你上次說到我們最急迫需要推動的重大政策，包括勞保年金改革、失聯移工、低薪等問題。我想請問部長，520之後，對於新任的部長你有什麼看法，有沒有什麼期待？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我在勞動部長任內有針對很多的法案跟政策，不管在跟行政院討論或者跟立法院討論，其實現在的何副秘、未來的何準部長都有參與，而且在過程中……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以你對他有信心嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我對他是有信心的，他對勞動政策並不陌生，而且他會站在勞工的立場來維護勞工的權益，所以我期許他能夠秉持這樣的一個態度來為我們勞方站出立場。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這樣子啦！我們勞團的印象都停留在賴清德準總統在擔任行政院長任內二度修正勞基法的強勢態度，你認為他上任之後的當務之急是什麼？"],["許部長銘春：這個……"],["邱委員鎮軍：有沒有必要修補與勞團間的不同聲音或意見？"],["許部長銘春：對，我覺得這是很重要的一件事情，現在當然大家可能對他過去因為角色或職務的關係，有一些認為或許不符合大家的期待……"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以部長覺得……"],["許部長銘春：我覺得他應該去跟大家做一些面對面的溝通，說明他未來……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你覺得我剛剛提的那些重大政策，他會繼續延續嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我想勞動部的政策都會有一貫的規劃，新部長上來當然……"],["邱委員鎮軍：會不會因為你離開之後，這些都不動了？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為這個部分都是現在最迫切的問題，我想新的部長上來，他也會邀集相關的業務單位主管來瞭解，然後也會去做一些看未來要怎麼來解決，會有他自己的想法。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你看勞保年金的改革已經拖了8年，當然部長也認為這是很需要推動的業務，那麼新的部長會不會真心推動勞保年金的改革，還是繼續財務的撥補？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我想撥補是一定要持續啦！撥補這個問題……"],["邱委員鎮軍：問題是已經拖了8年啊！"],["許部長銘春：改革也一定要去面對，這個我一直在說明，其實不是願意這樣子拖，而是這個涉及的勞工人數已經達到千萬人，然後包括事業單位60萬，而且各階層的勞工都不同……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，這個事情是比較複雜，沒錯，但不能因為它複雜而一直拖啊！對不對？"],["許部長銘春：就因為複雜，所以大家必須多去溝通，然後去求取最大的共識後再來處理。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以要幾年？一年、兩年、三年、四年？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個我恐怕沒辦法代替他來回答啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：對嘛！我們當然不是喊口號，我不希望勞保年金的改革是用喊口號的方式來拖，我也希望部長能夠把這樣一個重要的政策繼續交接下去，讓新的部長能夠繼續完成，你可以做到嗎？"],["許部長銘春：可以。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。再來請問部長，基層農民非常關心的農務移工辦理進度，上次你有跟本席談到是採外展模式，由農會代農民提出申請，請問一下目前辦理的情形是如何？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我這邊手上的資料是1萬2農業部已經核准了5,700人。"],["邱委員鎮軍：總共5,700人？"],["許部長銘春：對，大概有將近一半，我們現在開放1萬2，它現在核准5,700。"],["邱委員鎮軍：差不多啦！我調閱資料，發現到3月底的實際農業移工只有6,194人，其中外展農務移工只較去年6月底增加750人，我請問一下部長，外展農務移工新增申請數為什麼會這麼少？實際增加為什麼這麼緩慢？是不是因為我們的申請方式讓這些農民覺得不方便？"],["許部長銘春：沒有、沒有，因為現在是透過農會或合作社來擔任雇主……"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為農會……"],["許部長銘春：他們意願比較不高啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：是農會意願不高，而不是農民意願不高，你懂我的意思嗎？"],["許部長銘春：是，是農會意願不高。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，因為農會是多一事不如少一事啦！"],["許部長銘春：是啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以我覺得部長是不是有必要調整這樣的政策？"],["許部長銘春：跟委員報告，我也跟農業部部長反映過，就是……"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個政策的宗旨、目的就是為了要照顧我們的農民，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果轉嫁到農會，等於農會多了一個業務，所以沒有人要去負擔這個責任，你懂我的意思嗎？尤其現在不管是移工也好，或是農事移工也好，幾乎都會面臨移工逃跑的問題，都會有吧，對不對？所以沒有人要去承擔這個責任，是不是你們要再調整一下這個作法，讓真正需要的農民能夠更方便、更便捷地爭取到農事移工？"],["許部長銘春：我們再來跟農業部討論，針對它在推動上可能遇到的一些困難或瓶頸，大家再來檢討看看，看怎麼樣讓農民能夠……"],["邱委員鎮軍：希望部長針對這個事情能夠多用心一點，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，開放印度移工的部分，勞動部昨天也透露4月底將召開國內諮詢會議，會邀請相關的團體、部會及臺印學者，討論未來將開放的行業與名額。現在要開會了，請問勞動部預計提報多少名額到會議上討論？"],["許部長銘春：不是，報告委員，那個名額是各部會去評估其需求，因為我們是負責去跟印度談判，但是需求是各個目的事業主管機關……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我知道，除了營造業、製造業，還有家事工……"],["許部長銘春：去認為它有多少需求，所以這個需求不是我來決定，而是各部會……"],["邱委員鎮軍：你會邀請哪些單位來？"],["許部長銘春：各部會啊！包括內政部、農業部、衛福部、經濟部都會邀請。"],["邱委員鎮軍：增加勞工的對象是營造業、製造業，還是家事工業？"],["許部長銘春：現行開放的都是我們的對象，我們……"],["邱委員鎮軍：像觀光的一些產業呢？如飯店。"],["許部長銘春：那個目前不是開放的對象，服務業沒有開放喔！"],["邱委員鎮軍：服務業都沒有開放？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，現在服務業沒有開放。"],["邱委員鎮軍：為什麼沒有開放？"],["許部長銘春：基本上是以本國人就業為優先，而不足的部分再引進外籍移工來填補，目前以國內服務業來講，歷來都是國人最常就業的工作，像中高齡或者婦女，我們必須保障他們的工作機會，所以服務業沒有開放。"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，我們當然知道啦！有很多服務業，其實有一些像我們開放外籍學生打工，他們也有很多都跑到服務業嘛！"],["許部長銘春：工讀可以啊！"],["邱委員鎮軍：對嘛！"],["許部長銘春：那是工讀，工讀是沒有限制，但……"],["邱委員鎮軍：對於開放印度勞工的政策，外界還有許多疑慮，希望勞動部儘速地對外說明……"],["許部長銘春：對，所以我們要透過諮詢會嘛！"],["邱委員鎮軍：讓外界安心……"],["許部長銘春：讓大家來對話。"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以這個會議儘早開啦，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：下禮拜就要開啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：也要能夠實際改善我們國內的缺工情形。"],["許部長銘春：對，報告委員，我們下個禮拜就要開諮詢會了，我們也是透過社會對話來化解大家的疑慮。"],["邱委員鎮軍：因為時間不太夠，我再問下一個，我們國內15到24歲的青年失業率居高不下，相較於其他OECD的國家，在疫情期間飆升到15.2%，疫情後就大幅改善，降到10%左右，我國前幾年的失業率，幾乎都是11%或12%……"],["許部長銘春：沒有！沒有！我們的青年失業率沒有這麼高。"],["邱委員鎮軍：沒有嗎？"],["許部長銘春：沒有！沒有！報告委員……"],["邱委員鎮軍：我們查到的資料是這樣子。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們的青年失業率在去年降到8.01%，這是歷年來的最低。"],["邱委員鎮軍：已經到最低了。"],["許部長銘春：對，這是金融海嘯以來最低的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好。我想請問一下，青年就業投資方案第1期我們投入了95億，目標是讓青年的失業率降到2倍以下，目前的狀況是怎麼樣呢？"],["許部長銘春：大概是2.28。"],["邱委員鎮軍：還有一段距離要努力。"],["許部長銘春：當然要再努力，報告委員，其實我們經歷了3年的疫情，我們的青年失業率不但沒有飆高還降低，這其實也是要給勞動部鼓勵一下，我們真的很努力啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦！你們第2期馬上就要開始了。"],["許部長銘春：對啊！"],["邱委員鎮軍：希望你們能夠更積極，尤其是我們青年失業的問題，一定要儘快來解決，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席（王委員正旭代）：謝謝邱委員的發言。下一位我們請黃秀芳委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.290968750000001,"end":14.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.509718750000001,"end":15.488468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.99909375,"end":15.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.11221875,"end":20.669093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.820968750000002,"end":21.563468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.44096875,"end":24.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.562843750000003,"end":27.840968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.22909375,"end":28.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.22471875,"end":29.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.55784375,"end":40.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.509718750000005,"end":43.619093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.97346875,"end":46.673468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.399093750000006,"end":48.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.29346875,"end":52.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.900343750000005,"end":55.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.549718750000004,"end":74.41596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.79159375,"end":75.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.19221875000001,"end":88.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.34659375000001,"end":86.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.94971875,"end":99.18846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.40784375000001,"end":102.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.41971875,"end":105.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.38159375000001,"end":111.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.29659375000001,"end":128.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.84471875000001,"end":112.26659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.35784375,"end":124.07909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.23471875000001,"end":131.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.20471875,"end":130.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.75721875000002,"end":134.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.67659375,"end":136.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.19096875,"end":140.61659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.87409375000001,"end":142.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.14784375000002,"end":146.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.42159375,"end":146.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.18096875,"end":159.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.80784375000002,"end":163.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.07284375,"end":168.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.18596875,"end":176.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.11721875,"end":181.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.96471875,"end":183.15846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.15846875000003,"end":201.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.31221875,"end":204.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.40034375000002,"end":202.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.72909375,"end":212.40284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.42409375000003,"end":213.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.95534375000003,"end":214.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.54596875000001,"end":217.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.85784375,"end":226.18971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.58346875,"end":219.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.71284375000002,"end":227.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.11346875,"end":237.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.88409375,"end":238.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.87971875000002,"end":239.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.92596875,"end":241.09034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.79909375000003,"end":243.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.97596875000002,"end":246.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.35534375,"end":253.34159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.44284375,"end":257.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.66221875000002,"end":253.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.85971875,"end":266.30159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.97659375,"end":266.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.99346875000003,"end":267.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.01034375,"end":267.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.06096875000003,"end":267.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.24659375000005,"end":267.60096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.60096875,"end":267.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.97221875,"end":268.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.00596875,"end":268.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.17471875,"end":268.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.20846875,"end":273.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.41909375,"end":270.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.57471875000005,"end":274.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.34659375,"end":283.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.58159375,"end":289.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.88534375,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.52159375,"end":290.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.51284375,"end":294.14534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.70221875000004,"end":296.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.77784375000005,"end":299.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.32159375000003,"end":305.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.92846875000004,"end":310.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.06721875,"end":310.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.93596875000003,"end":313.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.43346875000003,"end":313.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.00721875,"end":314.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.85096875,"end":316.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.30221875,"end":323.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.75784375,"end":317.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.56721875,"end":329.19471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.71409375,"end":333.51471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.76846875,"end":330.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.89034375,"end":333.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.80159375,"end":337.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.45909375,"end":351.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.53284375000004,"end":353.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.19096875,"end":353.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.83221875000004,"end":367.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.32159375000003,"end":354.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.82159375000003,"end":378.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.01846875,"end":381.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.52846875,"end":380.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.03034375000004,"end":384.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.89909375,"end":396.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.11659375000005,"end":398.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.93909375000004,"end":400.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.40721875,"end":401.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.82034375,"end":403.74846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.10284375000003,"end":406.53284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.42721875,"end":425.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.37909375000004,"end":421.93971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.87596875,"end":426.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.74909375000004,"end":434.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.13221875000005,"end":440.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.66659375,"end":444.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.50159375000004,"end":444.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.53534375000004,"end":444.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.65346875,"end":445.10909375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.46346875,"end":446.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.61534375,"end":448.90596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.70784375000005,"end":452.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.25159375000004,"end":452.31471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.43284375,"end":454.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.76159375000003,"end":455.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.65596875000006,"end":456.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.39409375,"end":464.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.15659375,"end":472.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":473.07096875,"end":474.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.21409375,"end":486.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.95534375000005,"end":496.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.84346875000006,"end":501.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.94471875000005,"end":498.26534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.00784375,"end":499.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.15971875,"end":499.17659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.84284375000004,"end":503.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.96909375,"end":512.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.45846875,"end":505.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.34346875000006,"end":514.2122187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.84534375,"end":522.4809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.94596875,"end":518.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":522.16034375,"end":529.2140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":527.9653437500001,"end":543.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.51971875,"end":553.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.7165937500001,"end":554.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.03721875,"end":554.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.05409375,"end":555.7078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.1297187499999,"end":558.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":557.02409375,"end":558.2390937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.96471875,"end":562.0022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":559.1672187500001,"end":559.7747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":561.0065937500001,"end":562.8797187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.8415937500001,"end":564.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":564.87096875,"end":566.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.1028437500001,"end":569.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.52846875,"end":569.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.93346875,"end":573.1059687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.30846875,"end":574.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.47284375,"end":575.3334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.16034375,"end":579.4678437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.1772187500001,"end":577.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.7209687500001,"end":580.3115937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.3115937499999,"end":580.5478437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.3959687500001,"end":586.1840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.28534375,"end":586.6397187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":586.6397187499999,"end":593.0690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.16596875,"end":596.7140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.24596875,"end":595.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.06846875,"end":599.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.5534687500001,"end":604.0209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.08846875,"end":604.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.4890937499999,"end":608.2903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.50971875,"end":612.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.40784375,"end":612.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.7790937500001,"end":624.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.4622187500001,"end":615.8334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.57971875,"end":620.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.1784687500001,"end":622.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.0053437500001,"end":623.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.18221875,"end":626.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.59971875,"end":626.6672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":626.6672187500001,"end":627.03846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.522,"end":15.527,"text":"主席好,我們請我們的勞動部,我們的許部長。邱委員好。部長好。部長請問你,您作為史上任期最長的勞動部長,"},{"start":31.275,"end":54.802,"text":"當然我很遺憾沒有留任。您上次說到我們最急迫需要推動的重大政策,包括勞保年金的改革、失聯的移工、低薪等問題。我想請問部長,520之後對於新任的部長你有什麼看法?有沒有什麼期待?"},{"start":55.869,"end":75.053,"text":"報告委員,其實我在勞動部長任內針對很多的法案跟政策,不管在跟行政院這邊討論或者跟立法院這邊討論,其實我們的現在和未來的核准部長,他都有參與,而且在……所以你對他有信心嗎?"},{"start":75.493,"end":102.535,"text":"我對他是有信心的他對勞動政策並不陌生而且他會站在勞工的立場來維護勞工的權益所以我對他也期許等於秉持這樣的一個態度為我們勞方來站出立場這樣子我們勞團印象都停留在我們賴清德現在準總統擔任行政院長任內二度修正勞基法的強勢態度那您認為他上任之後當務之急是什麼"},{"start":105.414,"end":130.266,"text":"有沒有必要修補與勞團的這些不同的聲音?我覺得這是很重要的一件事情。現在當然大家可能對他過去的因為角色或職務的關係那有一些可能有一些認為或許不符合大家的期待。那我覺得他應該去跟大家做一些面對面的溝通。您覺得我剛剛提的那些重大的一些政策他會繼續延續嗎?"},{"start":131.883,"end":155.697,"text":"我想勞動部的政策都會有一貫的規劃在。會不會因為你離開之後這些都不動了?因為這個部分現在都是最迫切的問題。我想新的部長上來,他會邀請相關的業務單位主管來瞭解,然後也會去做一些。"},{"start":156.477,"end":174.097,"text":"看未來要怎麼來解決,會有他自己的想法。老保年金的改革已經拖了8年,當然部長也是認為這是很需要推動的業務,那麼新的部長會不會真心推動老保年金的改革,還是繼續財務的撥補?"},{"start":177.562,"end":200.123,"text":"報告委員,我想撥補是一定要持續啦,撥補這個問題．已經拖了8年啦改革也一定要去面對,那只是說這個我一直在說明說這個其實不是說願意這樣子拖,而是說這個涉及的勞工人數已經達到千萬人,然後包括世界大約60萬人,那這個又．對,但是不能說因為這個事情是比較複雜沒錯,但不能因為它複雜"},{"start":203.266,"end":225.345,"text":"所以因為是複雜所以要就是說必須大家多去溝通然後去求取最大的共識所以要幾年?要一年、兩年、三年、四年?這個我恐怕沒辦法代替他來回答當然不是喊口號我不希望說我們勞保有年金的改革是用喊口號的方式來拖"},{"start":228.191,"end":256.582,"text":"我也希望部長能夠把這樣一個重要的一個政策繼續的把他交接下去讓他能夠新的部長能夠繼續完成您可以做到嗎?可以那再來請問部長基層農民非常關心的農務移工辦理的進度上次您有跟本席談到施採外展模式由農會代農民提出申請那麼請問一下目前辦理的情形是如何?"},{"start":259.145,"end":266.137,"text":"報告委員我這邊手上的資料我們一萬二那這邊農業部已經核准了五千七百人了"},{"start":267.131,"end":293.495,"text":"總共5700人對,大概有將近一半我們現在開放12000嘛那他現在核准5700差不多啦我調閱資料發現到3月底實際農業移工只有6194人其中外展農業移工只較去年的6月底增加了750人那我請問一下部長外展農務移工新增申請數為什麼會這麼少?"},{"start":296.823,"end":297.206,"text":"這個實際增加為什麼這麼緩慢?"},{"start":300.41,"end":323.962,"text":"是不是因為我們申請的方式讓我們這些農民覺得不方便?沒有沒有因為現在是透過農會或合作社來合作他們意願比較不高啦是農會意願不高而不是農民不高你懂我意思嗎?是,是農會意願不高對所以因為農會是多一事不如少一事啦所以我覺得部長是不是有必要調整這樣一個政策?我也跟農業部這邊部長這邊反映過我們這個政策的宗旨"},{"start":330.145,"end":351.347,"text":"主要目的就是為了要照顧我們的農民,對不對?如果你轉嫁到農會,等於農會多了一個業務,所以沒有人要去負擔這個責任,你懂我意思嗎?尤其現在,我們的移工也好,不管是農事移工也好,幾乎都會面臨移工逃跑的問題。"},{"start":352.594,"end":367.319,"text":"都會有吧?對不對?所以沒有人要去承擔這個責任。那是不是我們要再調整一下這個做法,讓我們真正需要的農民能夠更方便、更便捷,能夠爭取到我們的農事的移工?"},{"start":367.884,"end":370.026,"text":"另外,我們開放印度移工的部分,"},{"start":385.339,"end":406.321,"text":"勞動部昨天也透露4月底將召開國內諮詢的會議會邀請我們相關的團體、部會以及台印的學者討論未來開放的行業與名額那現在要開會了請問勞動部預計提報多少名額到會議討論不是,報告委員那個名額是各"},{"start":407.489,"end":423.567,"text":"好各部會他去評估他的需求因為這個我們是負責去跟這個印度這邊來談判但是需求是各個主管單位那我知道除了營造業嘛他去認為他有多少需求所以這個需求不是我來決定"},{"start":425.068,"end":453.943,"text":"您會邀請哪些單位來?部會啊,包括你看內政部、農業部、衛福部、經濟部都會邀請。增加勞工的這個對象是我們的營造業還是製造業還是家事、工業?我們現行開放的都是我們的對象。像我們的一些觀光的一些產業?沒有,那個目前不是開放的對象。我們服務業沒有開放喔。我們現在服務業沒有開放。為什麼沒有開放?"},{"start":455.774,"end":473.39,"text":"呃基本上我我我們是這樣就是說你的開放就本國人就業優先嗎那不足的部分再再引進那個外籍移工來填補嗎那目前以國內服務來講歷來都是國人最最"},{"start":475.43,"end":496.198,"text":"經常去就業的一個工作,中高齡啊,或者婦女啊,那我們必須保障他的工作機會啊。所以我們服務業沒有可以開放。當然知道啦,有很多服務業其實有一些像學校,像學校他們這些交換學生,那個我們開放外籍學生的部分他們打工,也很多都跑到服務業嘛。"},{"start":497.859,"end":505.162,"text":"我們開放印度勞工的政策,外界還有許多疑慮。我想勞動部這邊希望能夠進行...所以我們要透過諮詢會,大家來對話。所以我們這個會議儘早開。"},{"start":518.528,"end":541.741,"text":"我也要能夠實際改善我們國內的缺工的情形。對,我們下個禮拜就要開諮詢會了。那我們也是透過這個社會對話來化解大家的疑慮。因為時間不太夠,我們這個問題就,我再問下一個。就是說,我們國內15到24歲的青年失業率居高不下。相較於其他OECD的國家,在疫情期間飆升到15.2%。"},{"start":544.582,"end":562.694,"text":"疫情後就大幅降、改善了,降到10%左右。我國去年的、前幾年的失業率幾乎都是到11到或12。那比國內的全體……新年失業率我們沒有這麼高啊。沒有嗎?沒有沒有。那我們的資料查到是這樣子啊。"},{"start":563.908,"end":565.789,"text":"現在目前看到這個狀況是怎麼樣?"},{"start":595.247,"end":623.265,"text":"大概2.28啦。那還有一段距離要...還有,當然要再努力,但是有...各位,那是其實我們經歷了三年的疫情耶。我們的青年的失業率不但沒有飆高,還降低。這個其實也是要給勞動部鼓勵一下啦,我們真的很努力啦。好啦,我希望說你們馬上第二期要開始。對啊。能夠更積極的,尤其是我們青年失業的問題啊,能夠一定要盡快的來解決。這樣好不好?好,謝謝部長,謝謝。"},{"start":625.232,"end":625.554,"text":"謝謝邱委員"}]}},{"id":"151728","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151728","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce1518adace3dfd136e520df1bb4ac2af973c68e374cd8c4bed0ec1a1595b71728d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:48:22 - 10:02:08","影片長度":"00:13:46","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":826,"end_time":"2024-04-25T10:02:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T09:48:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":265,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時48分）謝謝主席，有請文化部王時思次長、徐宜君次長。"],["主席：有請兩位次長。"],["王次長時思：委員早。"],["葛委員如鈞：早。王次長你好，今天我們首次見面，之前也沒有通過話，會前我對您稍微做了一些瞭解，次長有一個說法，我覺得很棒，您說最高竿的國際觀光行銷不是直接提觀光，而是以文化的內容作為替代的目標，壯大臺灣的內容，建立文化自信，讓世界看到，剛剛我們有看到這個TaiwanPlus，我也很關心，希望我們持續加油，對於這點我是很認同。","現在我們正值第59屆金鐘獎開放報名的時間，舉辦競賽獎項當然是一個國際交流跟分享的好機會，但是假如我們金鐘獎的報名網站出現bug，我想對於臺灣可能反而變成一個負面行銷。兩位次長可以看簡報這裡，自4月18號起就有意圖報名廣播金鐘獎新的Podcast項目，先感謝喔！但是要報名的時候就發現網站當機，檔案無法上傳，到4月19號下午五點多，系統廠商仍回復報名單位最快要等到明天，也就是4月20號重啟伺服器以後，報名單位才能夠操作。金鐘獎作為一個國際知名的傳播媒體產業競賽項目，報名網站竟然出現bug，讓報名者差點無法在48小時之內完成報名程序，真的有點讓人擔心，實在是我們數位科技之島好像要丟了名字跟招牌。後來經過本席的反映，也在文化部徐次長的幫忙之下主動聯繫，網站在19號晚上十一點多重新啟動，參賽者也就順利完成報名。但是我對於報名網站出現bug，超過48小時差點沒有辦法上傳，我認為這完全不應該發生在國際知名而且非常重要的競賽獎項上。請問一下，文化部有沒有掌握委外廠商修復到底細節是什麼？bug到底是什麼？到底是什麼樣的檔案、什麼樣的error、什麼樣的bug？可不可以稍微簡要說明？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，第一個，其實修復在24小時內就完成，至於到底發生的狀況是什麼，我就請徐次長來說明。"],["徐次長宜君：跟委員簡單報告一下，因為我們在上傳圖檔的時候，要把系統的圖檔大檔再轉成小檔，所以如果業者上傳的格式有異狀的時候，會導致頁面跳出一些錯誤的訊息，就會沒有辦法成功上傳，所以這部分我們就必須要去重啟伺服器，當天因為線上有非常多業者剛好在報名的旺……"],["葛委員如鈞：理解。"],["徐次長宜君：所以我們沒有辦法馬上啟動。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝。好，作為一個阿宅，我聽了一半，但是我覺得還是不夠完整，到底什麼樣的檔案、什麼樣的格式？是解析度的問題、檔案格式的問題、編碼的問題、壓縮率的問題等，我們希望這些細節文化部於一週之內請廠商整理以後，將書面報告送到本席辦公室，什麼樣的檔案格式、什麼樣的error、什麼樣的log，我們阿宅來幫大家瞭解一下好不好？"],["王次長時思：可以。"],["葛委員如鈞：不僅如此，身為一位Podcaster，我自己也特地申請了報名帳號，也謝謝通過了，來幫大家檢視這個流程，那我在此聲明，為了公平起見，今年我將不會報名文化部所舉辦的任何一個獎項，申請這個帳號純粹是為了幫Podcaster來瞭解。","首先，我在使用的時候就真的有點困擾，我們之前已經看到某部會的學習履歷上傳只有4MB，這個更小，只有2MB，那2MB上傳完還要縮圖，我不知道到底要縮到什麼程度？iPhone拍一張照片就是6MB了，2MB還要縮圖，縮到還會壞掉，我覺得這個真的是有點可惜！","其次，上傳音檔真的有點小幽默，還要自選播出日期、時間，連幾分幾秒都要手動調整，而且還是一個很fancy的scroll bar，你不小心按到55秒，你可能還要稍微拖一下，好像要打電動一樣，其實所有的Podcast頁面都標得很清楚，到底是幾點幾分上線，可不可以跟廠商討論一下，是不是可以讓Podcaster或者廠商在報名的時候可以再更簡單一點，不然我們科技之島真的有點小丟臉啦！","第三，也分享一下，現在是數位化的時代，大家都用多元的行動裝置，有人只有平板，有人只有手機，結果我們竟然發現要上傳檔案報名，沒有電腦沒辦法完成，這上面有一個小字說手機是沒有辦法用的，我不知道有沒有測試過啦！我先確認一下，你們報名規則有沒有規定一定要用電腦才能報名？"],["徐次長宜君：抱歉！委員，細節我要確認一下。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，待會我會問一下你們測試的過程，也希望提供。","最後一點，最讓人不可置信，也非常擔心的，我們要上傳Podcast的錄音檔，竟然需要先安裝系統商指定的軟體，我幾乎沒有這樣的經驗，我要上傳檔案之前，要先下載一個檔案，還要安裝，還不只是這樣喔！這個軟體居然沒有繁體中文的介面，只有簡體中文，而且這個軟體你如果下載所謂的擴展……不好意思，這是大陸用語，進去了以後，發現是1.6顆星，評價非常低，我都還覺得它是假軟體，非常可怕。請問一下文化部，今天報名的是臺灣金鐘獎還是對岸的金鷹獎？"],["王次長時思：委員，這個我們在會後……"],["葛委員如鈞：參賽者已經快要分不清楚了，合約裡有沒有要求系統廠商一定要用繁體中文？"],["王次長時思：有。委員，這個應該是……"],["葛委員如鈞：堂堂一個國家級的競賽獎項，我只有看到簡體中文啊！"],["王次長時思：有問題我們會後會立刻澄清，因為這個狀況其實不太可能，這不可以被發生的，所以我們會後會立刻澄清，也會立刻改善。"],["葛委員如鈞：太好了，太好了，多久之內可以改善？到底如何限期改善？是不是都儘可能快速的提供？"],["王次長時思：我們會立即展開。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們今天也都有媒體在現場，請問一下文化部，會發生這樣的問題，我相信大家都不願意看到，也謝謝您剛剛非常負責的說要立刻來處理，我就想要問今天測試的是報名流程、是Podcast，那其他影片獎項，你說金鐘獎可能還有其他的廣播節目……"],["王次長時思：我們都來重新做測試。"],["葛委員如鈞：全部都來檢視一下，在報名系統上線之前，到底有沒有經歷什麼樣的評估標準、測試及會議流程？因為我們是要求上線前已經發生過的，可不可以整理起來，一週之內提供我們瞭解一下？"],["王次長時思：可以，我們可以提供。"],["葛委員如鈞：就是照你這個流程，到底怎麼run的會出現這樣的問題，好不好？"],["王次長時思：我們會先澄清、釐清，我們會提供資料，而且立即改善。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝。雖然我有點激動，但我們都還是來協作啦！一起想讓這個服務可以更好，所以為了祈求金鐘獎，甚至是接下來即將舉辦的金曲獎、金馬獎，三金一切順利，我們邀請兩位次長到臺前來，要送文化部一部特製限定版for三金獎的「龍無Bug」春聯，希望次長帶回去轉交給部長，未來還要交接給即將上任的小野部長，好嗎？謝謝。"],["王次長時思：委員，我們一定會做到，應該不用這樣。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們祝福一下，好不好？"],["王次長時思：委員，我們剛剛已經做了承諾，該有的改善我們都會改善，好不好？謝謝委員，謝謝委員的好意，謝謝。"],["葛委員如鈞：已經做了承諾，那我們自己來，我們還是要祝福文化部「龍無Bug」，我還是把這個祝福送過來，好，謝謝。這是數位部唐鳳部長畫的，怕您覺得我畫的不好看，所以不是我畫的，希望可以收下。","我想接下來我還是要來關心Podcast的獎項，當然很高興有新的內容跟獎項上來，但是我們發現這個分類其實有點特別，生活風格獎、藝術文化獎，兒童節目還分成少年跟兒童，這跟我們現在Podcast的排名其實是很不一樣的，希望之後可以稍微再討論怎麼樣來擴增、怎麼樣來適應臺灣Podcast的收聽類別。"],["王次長時思：我們的確已經在討論當中。"],["葛委員如鈞：接下來還有一個議題，我也非常關注，除了Podcast方面傳出好消息，有這個新的類別，我們非常非常的興奮，也恭祝所有的Podcaster，希望都可以得到這個非常好的獎項，而且也希望報名流程可以持續精進。","在113年度的戲劇及節目類金鐘獎的要點當中，針對戲劇及節目獎、迷你劇集獎，以及電視電影獎的類別，都分別做出了調整，尤其是電視電影獎新增了一個定義，要求競賽影片長度必須達到60分鐘以上，受到各界關注，有非常多人來告訴我們這件事，請問一下次長，第59屆金鐘獎對於電視電影獎新增長度的規定，你們到底是為什麼把它提高了？去年5部入圍就有2部是低於30分鐘，結果你們現在一次提高到60分鐘，是覺得去年那2部不應該入圍嗎？是不是可以簡要說明？"],["徐次長宜君：跟委員做個報告，因為電視電影這個獎項其實我們一直在對標國際，事實上業界跟評審已經反映非常多年，大概有五、六年的時間，都希望我們能夠把電視電影對標國際獎項有一個明確的分鐘數，因此我們參考了金球獎、艾美獎跟所有的獎項，事實上它們大概都是在六十幾分鐘到七十幾分鐘，我們在今年其實也會商了相關單位跟業者之後，因為我們有一個針對短片的專門獎項叫金穗獎是以60分鐘以下，所以我們就以60分鐘作為一個參考，定了60分鐘這個規定。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝。可是我想三金就是三金嘛！你突然又講一個金穗，你們現在可不可以好好來行銷一下就是四金啊！不然，電視短片、電影短片等相關的短片，其實你不要拿那兩個獎說這兩個是這樣，全世界還有那麼多獎項，你們全部比完了嗎？也可能沒有嘛！你不能說少數人這樣講就這樣做改變，明明去年就有2部這麼精彩的作品入圍，我們也幫各位做了功課，事實上有非常非常多國際知名的導演都是從電視或電影的短片起家的，比如說珍．康萍，比如說我自己超級愛馬丁．史柯西斯的電影──教父，到現在都還是全球百大前三名，他大學時期就以3部短片展開自己的導演生涯。","相較於長片，電影短片的內容自由度非常的高，我想非常多的導演都在學生時代初入行的時候用短片來做作品，許多的新銳導演都用這種方式來初試啼聲，他們可能沒有「財錢」，但是他們可能有「才情」，透過一部短片可以讓評審看得出來他的實力。像去年第58屆的金鐘獎，我們剛剛就提到，有兩部作品入圍，片長低於30分鐘，為什麼我們會用這種打折的方式來做呢？你們剛剛的配套措施是讓它去報金穗獎，那你們是不是就要趕快開始去行銷？你們不是三金，你是四金，還是多金啊，不然你弄一個三金，你說：你這個不是三金，你去報金穗，我覺得這樣對於這些創作者不公平。實際上，我們剛剛看到的就是全世界……"],["徐次長宜君：跟委員報告……"],["葛委員如鈞：讓我講完，不好意思喔。"],["徐次長宜君：是，不好意思。"],["葛委員如鈞：全世界也有很多新的風潮，Netflix已經開始在推動短影片的製作，Netflix到底是電影還是電視？我們看到Netflix找魏斯·安德森做了「亨利·休格的神奇故事」，片長30分鐘，它是沒辦法報名金鐘的，結果呢？照樣奪得奧斯卡獎，結果我們的金鐘說大家都不要短片，所以我們不做這件事，怎麼回事啊？給您解釋一下。不好意思，主席，我們讓次長稍微簡要說明。"],["徐次長宜君：是，謝謝委員，因為我們確實每年金鐘獎都會作檢討，也是針對業界跟評審的反應來作檢討，所以剛剛委員提到短片是不是現在國際上的趨勢，其實我們並沒有不支持短片，因為我們有短片輔導金，同時也有金穗獎，在下一週其實也會頒獎。"],["葛委員如鈞：金鐘獎太有指標性了好不好？不好意思，我們就是覺得它很重要，去年有兩部入圍，就是低於這個長度，我們今年還有一部得奧斯卡獎的影片就是39分鐘，我相信世界的潮流是很多元的，不是少數的人、少數的獎項是這樣，我們就要立刻來更改，希望有更多的討論，有更多元的報名方式，好不好？期許文化部通盤考量，給予一個具有國際高度、更多元的舞臺，讓臺灣影視音的創作也包含新的Podcast，可以擺脫束縛，盡情地自由成長、野蠻地生長茁壯、持續地多元發展，好嗎？謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝葛如鈞委員，兩位次長請回。","我們接下來請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","葉元之","陳培瑜","何欣純","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","范雲","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","林月琴","陳冠廷","羅智強"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫─ 公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.89784375,"end":20.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.22596875,"end":22.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.47409375,"end":26.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.53721875,"end":146.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.03346875,"end":153.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":155.26409375,"end":174.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.44659375,"end":181.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.33221875,"end":179.07471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.41221875000002,"end":180.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.25159375,"end":282.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.27784375000005,"end":308.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.59846875,"end":313.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.24784375,"end":368.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.81471875,"end":359.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.15971875,"end":375.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.68534375,"end":405.43596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.03034375000004,"end":384.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.79909375000005,"end":405.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.43596875000003,"end":405.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.57096875,"end":431.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.11096875000004,"end":407.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.55471875,"end":428.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.03534375000004,"end":436.67159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.67159375000006,"end":448.90596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.95659375,"end":449.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.05784375,"end":468.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.08846875,"end":472.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.13409375000003,"end":481.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.13721875000005,"end":481.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.44096875,"end":481.45784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.96409375,"end":491.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":492.54471875,"end":495.76784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.33284375000005,"end":593.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.7240937500001,"end":533.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":593.5247187500001,"end":629.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":629.01284375,"end":727.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":728.74409375,"end":765.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.79409375,"end":732.8953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":732.8953437499999,"end":733.1315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":733.1315937500001,"end":733.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":765.6159687500001,"end":782.3728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":782.3728437500001,"end":821.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":822.5859687500001,"end":822.9909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":823.64909375,"end":826.3659687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":15.209,"end":22.053,"text":"謝謝主席有請文化部王石思次長徐怡君次長好有請兩位次長委員長"},{"start":27.66,"end":53.637,"text":"早 王次長你好今天我們首次見面之前也沒有通過話會前我對您有稍微做了一些瞭解次長您的一個說法我覺得很棒說最高竿的國際觀光的行銷不是直接提觀光而是以文化的內容作為替代的目標壯大台灣的內容建立文化自信讓世界看到不過剛剛我們有看到這個台灣plus我也很關心希望我們持續加油對於這一點我是很認同"},{"start":54.958,"end":72.553,"text":"現在我們正值第59屆的金鐘獎開放報名的時間舉辦競賽的獎項當然是一個國際交流跟分享的一個好機會但是假如我們的這個金鐘獎的報名網站出了bug我想對於台灣可能反而變成一個負面的行銷兩岸市場可以看這裡"},{"start":73.294,"end":93.811,"text":"自4月18日起就有意圖報名廣播金鐘獎這個新的項目先感謝但是要報名的時候就發現網站當機檔案無法上傳到4月19日下午5點多系統廠商仍回覆報名單位最快要等到明天就是4月20日重啟伺服器以後報名單位才能夠操作"},{"start":94.571,"end":116.841,"text":"金鐘獎作為一個國際知名的傳播媒體產業競賽項目報名網站竟然出現bug讓報名者差點無法在48小時之內去完成報名的程序真的有點讓人擔心實在是我們數位科技之島好像要丟了這個名字跟招牌那後來經過本席的反應也在文化部徐次長的幫忙之下主動聯繫了"},{"start":118.641,"end":145.275,"text":"網站在19日的晚上11點多重新啟動參賽者也就順利完成報名但是呢我對於這個報名網站出現bug超過48小時差點沒有辦法上傳我認為這完全不應該發生在這個國際知名而且非常重要的競賽獎項上請問一下文化部有沒有掌握委外廠商修復的到底細節是什麼bug到底是什麼到底是什麼樣的檔案什麼樣的error什麼樣的bug可不可以稍微簡要的說明"},{"start":146.195,"end":174.601,"text":"各位委員說明第一個就是說其實它修復在24小時內就完成那至於到底發生的狀況是什麼那我就請徐次長來做說明各位委員簡單報告一下因為我們在上傳圖檔的時候我們要把系統的圖檔大檔再轉成小檔那所以如果當這個場上就是它業者上傳的格式有異狀的時候就會導致這個頁面會跳出一些錯誤的訊息就會沒有辦法成功的上傳所以這部分我們就必須要去重啟我們的伺服器"},{"start":175.881,"end":204.56,"text":"當天因為線上有非常多業者剛好在報名的忘記所以我們沒有辦法馬上啟動好 作為一個阿宅我覺得我聽了一半但是我覺得還是不夠完整到底什麼樣的檔案 什麼樣的格式是解析度的問題 檔案格式的問題編碼的問題 壓縮率的問題我們希望這個細節可謂請文化部一週之內請廠商整理以後將書面報告送到本席辦公室什麼樣的檔案格式什麼樣的error 什麼樣的log我們阿宅也來幫大家了解一下好不好"},{"start":205.02,"end":219.012,"text":"那不僅如此身為一位Podcaster我自己也特地申請了報名帳號也謝謝通過啦那來幫大家檢視這個流程那我在此聲明為了公平起見今年我將不會報名文化部所舉辦的任何一個獎項申請這個帳號純粹是為了來幫Podcaster來了解啦"},{"start":222.655,"end":248.241,"text":"首先我在使用的時候就真的有點困擾我們之前已經看到這個某部會的這個學習履歷上傳這個只有4MB我們這個更小只有2MB那2MB上傳完還要縮圖我是不知道這到底要縮到什麼程度iPhone拍一張照片就是6MB了2MB還要縮圖縮到還會壞掉我覺得這個真的是有點可惜其次上傳音檔這個真的有點"},{"start":249.481,"end":277.492,"text":"有點小幽默上傳音檔還要自選播出日期時間連幾分幾秒都要手動調整而且還是一個很fancy的一個scroll bar你不小心按到55秒你可能還要稍微拖一下很像要打電動一樣我想這個其實所有的Podcast的頁面都有標的很清楚到底是幾點幾分上線可不可以跟廠商討論一下是不是可以讓我們的Podcaster或者廠商在報名的時候可以再更簡單一點"},{"start":278.813,"end":282.312,"text":"不然這我們這個科技之島這有點就小丟臉了齁那"},{"start":283.396,"end":304.323,"text":"再來第三也分享一下現在是數位化的時代大家都用多元的行動裝置有人只有平板有人只有手機結果我們竟然發現我們要上傳檔案要報名沒有電腦沒辦法完成這上面有一個小字說手機是沒有辦法用的我不知道有沒有測試過最後一點我先確認一下你們報名規則有沒有規定一定要電腦才會報名"},{"start":310.618,"end":331.653,"text":"抱歉委員這個細節我要確認一下好待會我會問一下你們的測試的過程也希望提供最後一點最讓人不可置信也非常擔心的我們要上傳Podcast的錄音檔竟然需要先安裝系統上指定的軟體我已經幾乎沒有過這樣的經驗我要上傳檔案之前要先下載一個檔案還要安裝"},{"start":333.895,"end":352.627,"text":"這還不只是這樣喔 這個軟體居然沒有繁體中文的介面只有簡體中文請問一下文化部我們今天是報而且這個軟體你如果下載所謂的擴展不好意思這是大陸用語進去了以後發現是什麼1.6顆星評價非常低我都還覺得它是假軟體非常可怕"},{"start":353.727,"end":375.365,"text":"請問一下文化部我們今天報名的臺灣金鐘獎還是對岸的菁英獎參賽者已經快要分不清楚了我們合約裡有沒有要求系統廠商一定要用繁體中文我們堂堂一個國家級的競賽獎項我就看到這個簡體中文啊因為這個狀況其實不太可能是不會 這不可以被發生的所以我們會後會立刻澄清也會立刻改善"},{"start":375.745,"end":385.252,"text":"太好了太好了我想多久之內可以改善那到底什麼樣限期改善是不是都盡可能的快速的提供我們今天也都有媒體在現場那請問一下文化部我們會發生這樣的問題我相信大家都不願意看到也謝謝您剛剛非常負責就是說我們要立刻來處理"},{"start":395.18,"end":412.573,"text":"我就想要問我們今天測試的是報名流程是podcast其他的影片的獎項其他的獎項你說金鐘獎可能還有其他的節目廣播節目全部都來檢視一下那到底在這個報名的系統上線之前到底有沒有經歷"},{"start":413.954,"end":430.982,"text":"什麼樣的評估標準有沒有經歷什麼樣的測試有沒有經歷什麼樣的一個會議的流程這個部分是不是我可以因為我們是要求上線前啊已經發生過的可不可以整理起來一週之內提供我們了解一下就照你這個流程到底是什麼run會出現這樣的問題好不好"},{"start":432.142,"end":435.345,"text":"我們會先澄清釐清為提供資料而且立即改修雖然我有點激動但我們都還是要來協作一起想要讓這個服務可以更好所以我想為了祈求金鐘獎甚至是接下來拿一個小禮物"},{"start":449.164,"end":450.805,"text":"我想委員我們就一定會做到應該不用這樣"},{"start":474.178,"end":480.402,"text":"我想委員我們剛已經做了承諾那該有的改善我們都會改善好不好謝謝委員謝謝委員的好意謝謝"},{"start":498.665,"end":503.983,"text":"這是數位部部長唐鳳 怕您是覺得我畫得不好看所以不是我畫的 所以希望可以收下"},{"start":505.013,"end":517.183,"text":"我想接下來我還是要來關心Podcast的獎項當然很高興有一個新的內容跟獎項上來但是我們發現這個分類其實有點特別生活風格獎、藝術文化獎、兒童節目還分成少年跟兒童這其實跟我們現在Podcast的排名其實是很不一樣的希望我們之後可以稍微再討論怎麼樣來擴增怎麼樣來適應台灣的Podcast收聽的類別"},{"start":534.156,"end":551.963,"text":"那我想接下來還有一個議題我也非常關注除了Podcast方面傳出好消息有這個新的類別我們非常非常的興奮這個也恭祝所有的Podcast希望都可以得到這個非常好的獎項而且也希望這個報名的流程可以持續的精進那在113年度的戲劇及節目類的金鐘獎的要點當中針對戲劇及節目獎、迷你劇集獎以及電視電影獎的類別都分別做出了調整尤其是電視電影獎"},{"start":564.168,"end":593.007,"text":"新增了一個定義要求競賽影片的長度必須達到60分鐘以上受到各界關注有非常多人來告訴我們這件事請問一下次長第59屆金鐘獎對於電視電影獎新增長度的規定到底是為什麼你們把它提高了去年的5部入圍就有2部是低於30分鐘結果你們現在一次提高到60分鐘是覺得去年的2部不應該入圍嗎是不是可以簡要說明"},{"start":593.744,"end":606.339,"text":"跟委員做個報告因為電視電影這個獎項其實我們一直在對標國際事實上業界跟評審已經反映非常多年其實大概有5、6年的時間都希望我們能夠把電視電影去對標國際的獎項有一個明確的分中數"},{"start":609.002,"end":609.222,"text":"好 謝謝喔"},{"start":630.151,"end":657.786,"text":"可是我想三金就是三金嘛你突然又講一個金稅那你們現在可不可以好好來行銷就是四金啊那不然電視短片電影的短片相關的短片其實你不要拿說那兩個講說這兩個是這樣全世界還有那麼多的獎項你們全部比完了嗎也可能沒有嘛你不能說少數人這樣講我們就這樣做改變明明去年就有兩部這麼精彩的作品入圍我們也幫各位做了功課"},{"start":658.706,"end":683.234,"text":"事實上有非常非常多國際知名的導演都是從電視或電影的短片起家的比如說曾康平啦比如說我自己的超級愛他的電影《教父》到現在都還是全球百大前三名這個馬丁史柯西斯這個大學時期就以三部短片展開自己的導演生涯相較於長片、電影短片的內容自由度非常的高"},{"start":683.914,"end":713.038,"text":"那我想這個非常多的導演都在學生時代出入行的時候用短片來做作品啊許多的新銳導演都用這種方式來做出世提升他們可能沒有才錢但是他們可能有才情透過一部短片可以讓評審看得出來他的實力像去年第58屆的金鐘獎我們剛剛就提到兩部作品入圍低於30分鐘為什麼我們會用這種打折的方式來做呢那你們剛剛的配套說是讓他去做金碎獎"},{"start":713.798,"end":722.884,"text":"我們是不是趕快就開始來行銷嘛不是三金啊你是四金啊還是多金啊那不然你弄一個三金你說你這個不是三金你去報經稅那這樣我覺得對於這些創作者不公平實際上"},{"start":728.82,"end":750.358,"text":"我們剛剛看到的就是全世界讓我講完不好意思喔全世界也有很多新的風潮Netflix就已經開始在推動短影片的製作那Netflix到底是電影還是電視啊我們看到Netflix找威斯安德森就做了這個亨利休格的神奇故事啊片長30分鐘喔來報名金鐘是沒辦法報名的喔結果呢照樣奪得奧斯卡獎"},{"start":755.763,"end":756.503,"text":"金鐘獎太有指標了好不好"},{"start":785.188,"end":800.298,"text":"不好意思 我們就是覺得他很重要我們覺得去年有兩部入圍就是低於這個長度我們今年還有奧斯卡獎就是39分鐘我相信世界的潮流是很多元的不是少數的人少數的獎項是這樣我們就立刻要來更改希望有更多的討論有更多元的報名方式好不好還是期許文化部通盤考量"},{"start":808.423,"end":821.298,"text":"給予一個國際高度更多元的舞台讓台灣的影視音的創作也包含新的Podcast可以擺脫束縛進行的自由成長野蠻生長茁壯持續的多元發展好嗎謝謝好 謝謝謝謝葛如鈞委員"}]}},{"id":"151727","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151727","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce159d61234fa8242ef0e44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed020bd5877b075db005ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:47:45 - 09:59:30","影片長度":"00:11:45","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-17"},"duration":705,"end_time":"2024-04-25T09:59:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T09:47:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":277,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（9時48分）謝謝主席，我們請周秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：陳委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：秘書長早。我們今天要審查的是有關立法院組織法、立法委員行為法、立法院議事規則以及立法院職權行使法等相關條文。前幾週我們在討論國會改革的時候，大多是要完備我們立法委員的職權行使，也希望能夠有效來監督政府、回應民意，不過我們立法委員在完善職權的同時，也應該要有足夠的自律規範，才能夠避免這種不當的行為產生。","首先想要就性平的議題與秘書長來做討論，我想不管在任何環境都有發生性平事件的可能，但立法委員作為國家最高的民意代表，自然要用最高的標準來防範性騷擾或是性別歧視的言語，對於性騷擾零容忍，我們也應該不分黨派，大家要有共識。我想就教秘書長，是不是因為立法委員不屬於立法院的員工，所以現行的立法院工作場所性騷擾防治及申訴處理要點以及立法院性騷擾防治申訴及調查處理要點都沒辦法約束到涉及性騷擾的立法委員？"],["周秘書長萬來：我先跟陳委員報告一下，因為我們在上上個禮拜剛剛開過性平會的會議，范委員也在，就是對於委員之間的部分，要由我們院裡面再把它強化、做一個修正。委員間的大概由法制局……哪邊？請人事處來說明一下，就是有關那個細節性，在性平會我們有開會……"],["陳委員俊宇：沒關係，那個細節不用說明。對於我們立法委員的性平自律機制，從法制局所提供的資料來看，美國、法國還有英國的國會都有訂定相關的規範或決議，其他國家雖然沒有明文規定，但也會以有損國會尊嚴來處理。如果我們民進黨團所提出，還有范雲委員所提出的立法委員行為法修正草案能夠通過，我想請教秘書長，針對立法院能不能借鏡外國的這種國會案例來辦理，您會如何建議我們紀律委員會朝這個方向來處理？"],["周秘書長萬來：一般來講，如果委員的提案通過的話，我們當然會依照法規來處理，因為紀律委員會也是由各委員會召集委員組成的，所以如果有法規的話，我們一定照這樣來處理。"],["陳委員俊宇：就依法處理就對了。"],["周秘書長萬來：對，行政一定是配合處理。"],["陳委員俊宇：依照紀律委員會的規範來處理。"],["周秘書長萬來：對，一定會按照法規交紀律委員會議處，它會開會照這個規範來做。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。在這裡我也要提醒秘書長，我們在網站上有一個性騷擾防治專區，有提供相關的資訊參考，應該有一段時間都沒有更新了，包括性平三法在去年7月已經有通過新的版本，可是在網站上所公告的性騷擾申訴案件的SOP，目前還是連結到舊版本的條文，所以這個請我們相關單位會後去注意一下。"],["黃處長瑞月：會，跟委員報告，我們現在都在修，因為依據性平三法的修正，我們也在修剛剛委員提到的院裡面的兩個法，目前都已經在修正中，法制局也會表示意見，修好之後我們都會做更新，以上跟委員報告。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。另外，對於性平委員會，立法院性別平等委員會設置要點第三點裡面所示，本委員會設置13人，院長跟副院長是當然的主任委員跟副主任委員，秘書長您也是這個委員會的成員嘛。"],["周秘書長萬來：我也是委員，外聘有3位。"],["陳委員俊宇：對，外聘3位，另外是依黨團的席次去分配席次。"],["周秘書長萬來：由各黨團推派。"],["陳委員俊宇：這個任期是兩年，可是這一屆（第4屆）的委員任期是從2022年的7月1號到今年2024年的6月30號，雖然任期還剩幾個月，但是橫跨兩屆國會的任期，其中也有幾位委員已經沒有在立法院連任，已經卸任了，包括我們的游院長也都卸任了。我想請問秘書長，是不是應該將性平委員會的任期重新調整，以配合每一屆的國會組成？"],["黃處長瑞月：依照這次2月1號的新屆期，沒有連任或離開的委員，我們都已經請黨團提供新的委員名單，所以我們也變更了新的名單，院長也改了、副院長也改了，國民黨跟民眾黨的委員我們都已經改變了，也通知各個委員。"],["陳委員俊宇：所以已經重組好了？"],["黃處長瑞月：對，都重組好了。"],["陳委員俊宇：已經在上上個禮拜開會了嗎？"],["黃處長瑞月：對，都是新的委員。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。我們性別平等委員會所負責的任務其實是非常重要，不但要推動性平的政策、法規還有業務，立法院的幕僚單位也負責對性別這個議題進行研究和分析，本席還是希望我們性平會不只是制度上持續精進，在工作上也能持續地深化，同時納入更多元的聲音，並將性平意識落實在立法院的每一個人、每一個地方，將國會營造成一個沒有性騷或性別歧視的友善職場，這應該要請秘書長去落實這方面。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝，因為這個執行秘書是由我們副秘書長來兼任，幕僚方面會認真來處理。"],["陳委員俊宇：再來我想針對國是論壇的部分，有關國是論壇的存廢問題也不是一個新的議題了，本席是本屆次的新科立委，對於國是論壇的必要性感到非常懷疑，自2月就任以來，也從未在國是論壇登記發言過。每個委員站在臺上獨自講了3分鐘，有時候發言也與政策或時事沒有相關，讓官員在臺下從9點枯等到10點，反而延宕了處理議案的相關時間，似乎也沒有太大的效益。","立法院提供的書面報告裡面有寫到，關於國是論壇制度當初有其設立的緣由，並具有臨時性、機動性、還有新聞性的特點，提供委員問政的場域。當初我們設置國是論壇原本是要提供委員更多發言的機會，讓委員能夠自由地發表政策、反映民情或是對時事進行評論，但現在早已是電子化和網路媒體的時代，我們委員都有相當多元的發言管道。","我想請教秘書長，您在立法院三十多年了，應該最能感受到這個變化，為了讓立法院議事能夠更加有效率，是不是也認同國是論壇應該走入歷史？"],["周秘書長萬來：從第2屆開始的國是論壇當時有它的背景，當時的情況是因為議事錄發言，時常委員就藉議事錄發言來做偏主題的發言，所以有一個委員就在預算審查的時候提出來，才有這個機制設計。不過國是論壇長期也有很多委員跟外界希望把它廢止，我們也聽得到，其實我個人認為國是論壇是一個疏洪道，另外一個就是藉這個機會……"],["陳委員俊宇：就是還要存在？"],["周秘書長萬來：我個人不認為國是論壇一定是不好的機制，當然它還有其他配合的，舉個例來講，9點開會，如果有國是論壇這一個時間，或許會讓法定人數可能在10點就立即可以開會，大概有一些其他衍生的制度配合。我個人不認為國是論壇一定就不好，這等於是另外一個可以反映政見及各方面的，雖然現在可能很多委員也透過直播……"],["陳委員俊宇：沒有，秘書長，我剛剛講的是說，因為在上面講了3分鐘並沒有答詢的結果，只有講而已、沒有回答，所以這……"],["周秘書長萬來：我剛才報告就像臨時提案一樣，它有一個疏洪道。"],["陳委員俊宇：對。"],["周秘書長萬來：他可以將各選區的民意藉這個反映，所以美國制度是1分鐘演說one minute speech，所以這個3分鐘是借那個制度衍生過來，我個人並沒有說一定不能廢啦！不過我跟委員報告，這個有它的一些機能在。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。另外還有一個就是關於臨時提案的處理時間，現行的立法院議事規則第九條規定，在下午的5點到6點處理。針對這個部分，我們希望能不能改到下午的1點到2點來處理，方便會議主席召開黨團協商會議的時候也能夠有充分討論的時間，針對這個部分，我想請教秘書長的看法？"],["周秘書長萬來：我尊重，這部分我沒有特別說一定不行啦，因為現在剛開始沒有法案進來，其實一般來講法案進來的話，可能到5點都還在進行法案的處理，我問了議事處的同仁，這兩屆很多委員提出希望這個時間，那我不反對。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝秘書長，也希望相關的修法能夠更加完善、一起來精進，讓我們整個國會改革能夠更加順利，以上。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝指導。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員、謝謝周秘書長。","接下來有請莊委員瑞雄發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-17","speakers":["鍾佳濱","范雲","羅智強","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林思銘","吳思瑤","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員高金素梅等\n23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條\n之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案；三、繼續審查\n( 一) 民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」\n案、( 二) 委員賴瑞隆等16 人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草\n案」案；四、(一)繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審\n查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」\n案、( 四 ) 繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kaaw 等19 人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(五)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)審查\n委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133401_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.500343750000003,"end":23.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.36471875,"end":25.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.65534375,"end":52.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.92534375,"end":28.718468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.05221875,"end":87.62909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.35471875,"end":108.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.50721875,"end":134.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.34721875,"end":144.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.27909375000002,"end":140.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.30409375000002,"end":167.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.49846875,"end":176.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.85971875,"end":182.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.59721875000002,"end":187.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.96784375000001,"end":207.74534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.99909375000001,"end":205.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.39096875,"end":209.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":208.45409375000003,"end":215.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.94659375,"end":216.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.80721875,"end":227.11784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.60721875000002,"end":248.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.51971875,"end":265.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.28909375,"end":285.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.83034375,"end":287.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.15909375,"end":295.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":289.79159375,"end":293.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.30534375,"end":315.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.20096875,"end":329.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.46471875000003,"end":343.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.75784375,"end":351.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.91284375000004,"end":352.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.24596875000003,"end":354.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.79846875000004,"end":356.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.04284375000003,"end":357.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.42659375,"end":367.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.99034375,"end":381.89534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.46909375,"end":400.94721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.22159375,"end":410.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.85721875,"end":410.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.49846875000003,"end":439.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.32096875,"end":457.90034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.33909375,"end":473.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.74159375000005,"end":512.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.72284375,"end":541.3303437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.86534375,"end":519.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.97159375,"end":557.3953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.5515937499999,"end":558.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":558.13784375,"end":599.8022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.3172187499999,"end":609.1172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":608.1047187500001,"end":612.2222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.13784375,"end":612.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":612.39096875,"end":639.4584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.4584687500001,"end":639.4753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.6103437500001,"end":650.27534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.4609687500001,"end":662.0203437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.4253437500001,"end":663.6909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":664.28159375,"end":666.3234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":666.5090937500001,"end":692.9184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.3784687500001,"end":702.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":702.70596875,"end":704.1572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":702.72284375,"end":703.2122187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":22.814,"text":"委員俊宇發言。好,謝謝主席。我們請周秘書長。請周秘書長。"},{"start":27.814,"end":52.251,"text":"民進黨早我們今天要審查的是有關我們立法院的組織法還有立法委員的行為法立法院議事規則以及立法院職權行使法等相關的條文那前幾週我們討論這個國會改革的時候大多是要完備我們立法委員的職權行使也希望能夠有效來監督政府回應民意"},{"start":53.112,"end":73.642,"text":"那不過我們立法委員在完善職權的同時也應該要有足夠的自律規範才能夠避免這種不當的行為產生首先想要就這個性平的議題與秘書長來做一個討論我想不管在任何的環境都會發生性平的事件的可能但立法委員作為我們"},{"start":75.043,"end":87.139,"text":"國家最高的民意代表自然要用最高的標準來防範性騷擾或性別歧視的言語對於性騷擾零容忍我們也應該要不分黨派大家要有共識"},{"start":88.413,"end":108.007,"text":"那我想就叫我們秘書長是不是因為立法委員不屬於立法院的員工所以現行的立法院工作場所性騷擾防治及申訴處理要點以及立法院性騷擾防治申訴及調查處理要點都沒辦法約束到涉及性騷擾的立法委員"},{"start":111.867,"end":134.393,"text":"我先跟陳委員報告一下因為我們在上上禮拜剛剛開開過那個性評會的一個會議啦那換人也在吧就為了這個委員之間啦也要由我們院裡面再把他強化再做一個修正因為委員間的事有沒有大概有法治局是不是哪邊"},{"start":136.4,"end":140.643,"text":"法制局提供的資料來看美國、法國還有我們英國的這個國會都有訂定相關的規範或決議那其他國家雖然沒有明文的規定但也會以"},{"start":162.661,"end":186.988,"text":"由損國會尊嚴來處理。」如果民進黨團的我們所提出還有范雲委員所認定的這種立法委員行為法所提出的修正草案能夠通過我想請教祕書長您這個針對立法院能不能借盡外國的這種國會案例來辦理您會如何來建議我們紀律委員會朝這個方向來處理"},{"start":188.035,"end":213.525,"text":"我們大概一般來講如果委員的提案通過的話我們會當然依照法裡面來處理當然就因為紀律委員會也是由委員各委員會召集委員組成的啦所以如果有法規的話我們一定照這樣的就依法處理就對了行政一定是配合的處理依照紀律委員會的規範來處理有一定會按照法規定叫紀律委員會議處紀律委員會他會開會照這個規範來做好"},{"start":216.906,"end":243.002,"text":"好那在這裡我也要提醒我們秘書長我們在這個網站上有一個性騷擾防治專區有提供相關的資訊參考那應該有一段時間都沒有去更新了包括我們性平三法在去年這個7月已經有通過新的版本可是在網站上所公告的這個性騷擾申訴案件的SOP目前還是連結到舊的版本的條文"},{"start":243.682,"end":264.484,"text":"所以這個應該請我們相關單位是不是會後去注意一下?公務委員報告我們現在都在修那我們修好之後因為依據信憑三法的修正我們也在修院裡面剛剛委員提到的兩個法那目前都已經在修正中也會法治局表示意見那修好之後我們都會做更新還有公務委員報告"},{"start":265.525,"end":285.535,"text":"另外對於性平委員會我們立法院性別平等委員會設置要點第三點裡面所示我們本委員會設置13人我們的院長跟副院長是當然的主任委員跟副主任委員秘書長您也是委員的成員"},{"start":287.796,"end":314.423,"text":"案。另外是我們依黨團的席次去分配這個席次。那這個任期是兩年可是這一屆第四屆的這個委員任期是從2022年的7月1號到今年2024年的6月30號那雖然任期還剩幾個月可是是橫跨兩屆國會的任期其中也有幾位的這個委員已經沒有在立法院這個"},{"start":316.723,"end":328.313,"text":"連任已經卸任了包括我們的游院長也都卸任了那我想請問秘書長就是說是不是應該將我們性品委員會的任期來做一個重新的調整以配合每一屆的國會組成"},{"start":330.242,"end":357.155,"text":"根據就是依照這一次2月1號的新的屆期那沒有連任的會離開的委員我們都已經請黨團提供新的委員名單所以我們也跟變更了新的名單所以院長也改人副院長也改人那國民黨跟民眾黨的委員都我們都已經改變了那也通知各個委員所以已經重組好了對對對都重組好了那就是已經在上上禮拜開會了嗎對對都是新的委員"},{"start":358.736,"end":365.983,"text":"好,那我們性別平等委員會所負責的這個任務其實是非常的重要啦,不但是要推動我們這個"},{"start":368.095,"end":395.649,"text":"性平的政策、法規還有業務。立法院的幕僚單位也負責對性別這個議題進行研究和分析。本席還是希望說我們性平會不只是制度上的持續精進在工作上也能持續的深化同時納入更多元的聲音並將這個性平的意識落實在立法院的每一個人、每一個地方將國會營造成一個沒有性騷擾或性別歧視的友善職場"},{"start":396.73,"end":406.622,"text":"我相信這應該要請秘書長要去落實我們這個方面。謝謝,因為他執行秘書是由我們副秘書長來兼任的。我們會幕僚方面會員認識處理。"},{"start":410.609,"end":438.546,"text":"好再來我想針對這個國事論壇的部分我想有關國事論壇的存廢問題也不是一個新的議題了那本席是我們本屆次的新科立委在對於國事論壇的必要性感到非常的懷疑至二月就任以來也從未在國事論壇上去登記發言過那每個委員站在台上獨自講了三分鐘有時候發言"},{"start":439.326,"end":441.067,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案案"},{"start":458.444,"end":473.543,"text":"立法院提供的書面報告書裏面有寫到關於國事論壇的制度當初有其設立的緣由並因具有臨時性、機動性還有新聞性的特點提供委員問政的場域而當初"},{"start":474.79,"end":491.833,"text":"我們設置國事論壇原本是要提供給委員更多發言的機會讓委員能夠有這個叫自由的發表政策反映民情或是對於時事進行評論但是現在早已是這個電子化和網路媒體的時代"},{"start":492.654,"end":494.535,"text":"議員賴瑞隆等一）立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":514.149,"end":538.939,"text":"我因為從第二屆開始的國事論壇當時的有他的背景,背景我的在當時的情況是因為伊斯路花園市場委員就藉伊斯路花園來來做偏主題的花園所以有一位委員就在也是在遇上委員審查的時候提出來才有這個基礎設計的不過這一個"},{"start":542.2,"end":566.185,"text":"這一個國事論壇長期也有蠻多的委員跟外界希望把它廢止,我也聽得到但是其實我個人認為國事論壇是一個是一個失風道另外一個就是就是還要存在就對了我個人不認為說這個國事論壇就是一定是不好的一個機制當然他還有其他配偶的比如舉個例來講九點開會"},{"start":568.766,"end":589.809,"text":"那如果有國事論壇的這個時間或許是有些委員他會讓這個法定人數可能在10點的話可能就立即就可以開會啦這個是大概有一些其他衍生的一些制度的一個配合啦我是個人不認為說一定國事論壇就不好啦"},{"start":590.309,"end":607.649,"text":"這是等於一個另外的可以把政見反映各方面的,雖然現在外界的可能很多委員都直播啦。剛剛秘書長我講的是說因為在上面講的三分鐘並沒有答詢的那個結果嘛,只有講而已,沒有回答。"},{"start":608.77,"end":622.286,"text":"我看的辦法就像臨時提案一樣他有一個輸紅道啦他可以把反映的他各選區或是什麼的一個民意的一個對這個反映所以美國制度是一分鐘演說吧"},{"start":623.647,"end":648.501,"text":"所以這個三分鐘是藉那個制度的衍生過來因為我個人並沒有說一定說不能會不過我是跟報告說這個有他的一些機能在另外還有一個就是有關臨時提案的處理時間現行的這個立法院議事規則第九條規定是在下午的五點到六點處理"},{"start":651.073,"end":661.223,"text":"針對這個部分我們希望說能不能改到在下午的一點到兩點來處理方便這個會議主席召開黨團協商會議的時候也能夠有充分討論的時間那針對這個部分"},{"start":664.315,"end":690.468,"text":"我想請教秘書長您的看法我尊重我沒有特別說一定不行所以因為其實會議如果在因為現在剛開始沒有法案進來其實一般來講法案進來的話都可能到五點多還在進行法案的處理但我因為我問了醫事所同仁他們大概這兩屆很多委員提出希望這個時間那我不反對"},{"start":693.49,"end":693.51,"text":"案 。"}]}},{"id":"151726","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151726","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce1571f2dbad97188e14c97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed0a515b23fefa1fd695ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:40:25 - 09:52:05","影片長度":"00:11:40","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":700,"end_time":"2024-04-25T09:52:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T09:40:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":328,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時40分）主席，我想請部長，謝謝。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["陳委員菁徽：各位官員也早安。"],["許部長銘春：陳委員早。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長，上禮拜有一個滿嚴重的新聞，就是在下湖營區的東營區發現海軍陸戰有66位非法的逃逸移工，他們已經去了3次，移民署去了3次都撲空，表示他們其實是有線民在通報，當然第4次有發現6位失聯逃逸的移工，關於移工的管理，我想除了移民署有責任，勞動部也有責任，所以，像這樣子的狀況，你們有想要再去追查源頭嗎？因為這個承包公司一定有許許多多的工程……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們一定會追查，我們也都會去瞭解這些查獲的非法移工，看他們到底是誰介紹的、怎麼來的。"],["陳委員菁徽：他的源頭跟組織。"],["許部長銘春：對，一定會追的，這一定要追。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是還沒開始。"],["許部長銘春：因為逃逸移工的查緝是移民署，我們也是一起配合，這是一個國安團隊在處理。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是勞動力發展署的工作，到底哪些企業有僱用非法移工，還有你們往上追查像這些公務機關的標案都是很公開的，所以對你們而言，去追查同一家承包商是不是還有其他的工程，這應該是很容易的吧？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，現在在整個查緝上，其實我們跟移民署大概……第一個，一定會溯源，針對它背後非法僱用的對象跟媒介者，這一定會查。第二個，對於這個工程當初的包商，我們也會去瞭解它合法聘僱的狀況，也會做一些相關的清查工作。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，因為這也是很危害我們國安的問題。","下一個我們來看一下失聯移工現在還有涉入詐騙的問題，他在離境前，居然每一本帳戶可以飆到40萬，所以部長知道這幾年我們失聯移工或者是移工涉刑案的人數有多少？然後哪一類的犯罪在成長嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實移工不管是合法或失聯的，其實他的犯罪率還是比我們國人低。"],["陳委員菁徽：是，但是它在攀升，您知道嗎？"],["許部長銘春：這個大部分都以酒駕最多，這個部分我們會加強宣導，就是請移工要珍惜工作機會，因為他一旦被處以比較嚴重的處罰，可能就會被廢聘要回去了。"],["陳委員菁徽：這邊我幫你找出來了，因為隨著科技的發達，全世界的詐騙都在不斷的攀升，我們查到外籍人頭帳戶的人數不斷地在成長，我們看右邊這個表會比較清楚，移工涉刑事案件的件數，我們把最大規模的找出來，最大規模就是剛剛部長提到的公共危險罪，再來就是詐欺罪，也就是詐騙相關的，他們有的時候是加害人，有時候是被害人，但光是從110年到112年，它是三倍的成長。","最近大家都一直在探討移工的問題，我們也許缺工，所以我們必須要引進，可是像這樣子，不管是失聯、逃逸或者是刑事案件增加，或是介入新的犯罪集團，像詐騙這樣事情，如果我們沒有辦法因應而且有好的解決方案的話，大家也會擔心我們是不是可以再迎接更多的移工來臺。"],["許部長銘春：其實最近移工的帳戶變成一個犯罪的工具，這個部分其實行政院打詐小組已經有跨部會討論過了，譬如說針對離境的或者失聯的，我們會提供帳戶這些資料給金管會，讓他們……"],["陳委員菁徽：最近有討論？"],["許部長銘春：有，金融機構就會去注意，就是這些帳戶有異常的資金進來，就會去注意是不是有……"],["陳委員菁徽：但是你有沒有想到要從移工端去宣導？"],["許部長銘春：我們要做宣導啊！報告委員，我們會宣導這個部分。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，上次我們也有討論過他們的在臺工作須知嘛？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：關於他的帳戶等等，這裡面只有提到他一定要透過合法的管道匯錢回到家鄉，或是他一定要保管好自己的證件，但是對於剛剛提到的詐騙等等，你們這個版本是完全沒有提到。"],["許部長銘春：對，報告委員，因為以前移工是被害者比較多，最近變成加害人，那這沒有關係，因為這是2023年版的，我們現在……"],["陳委員菁徽：我知道，但是2024年改版，你要不要把它加入？"],["許部長銘春：一定要加。"],["陳委員菁徽：上次我們已經講到terminate your contract。"],["許部長銘春：正在做。"],["陳委員菁徽：網路版也可以先改了。"],["許部長銘春：對，我們可以先做，回去就趕快弄，先處理網路版的，紙本我們會再印製。"],["陳委員菁徽：下一個議題當然是更令人難過啦！但是許許多多的……像台劇有一個叫「八尺門的辯護人」，裡面就有一個情節是外籍移工被雇主塞小費，然後撫摸了屁股、臀部，從性騷擾最後可能演變成性侵害，這也是許多媒體會報導的，他去訪問可能受到性侵害的受害移工，他就講到一開始也是跟這個劇情一樣，試探性的去播放一些色情的影片，或者是問一下他有沒有結婚、要不要嫁給他以及口頭的吃豆腐，到最後就更嚴重的性侵害、性暴力等等，當然檢察官也會問受害者前面怎麼沒有說，當然雇主就說如果敢說出去的話，就會把他送回去。","我們雖然2023年就通過了性平三法的修法，也努力在做性別平權，可是連勞動部你們內部發布的統計，光是臺灣一般接到性騷擾，這是你發布的官方數據，有九成的人其實是不敢說的，只有一成的人他會出來訴苦或是報案。移工的生活環境比我們一般人還要陰暗，像這樣子的家事移工就是要跟他們日夜相處在一起，更容易遇到這樣子的問題。","當然我們也很不希望這樣子的故事會讓國外對我們有更不好的影響，畢竟我們是一個人權立國的國家嘛﹗這邊我整理了10年左右外籍性侵統計的案件，加起來就有將近800件，比較難過的是，透過1955受理的，5年內大概是199件，可是衛福部的數字是362件，表示什麼呢？表示外籍移工沒有把你勞動部1955當成有力的靠山，他會跟你聯絡關於他的性侵害、性騷擾，這裡面還沒有統計到性騷擾，這裡面只有統計性侵害喔！所以他是主動打給警察或是打給其他的單位，但是他沒有覺得跟勞動部講會有用，這方面……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實我們都有透過多元的線上管道告訴移工只要有受到任何不法侵害或騷擾，他第一時間可以馬上求救1955，而且他只要一打進來，我們一定會立案查處，其實我們這邊受理件數的統計包括性騷擾其他各種遭受不法侵害的通通都有，不過這個部分我們還是會再加強。"],["陳委員菁徽：我知道，但是上次我們有討論，最後有一些他們是合意的解僱，但這些其實都是黑數，所以我覺得你可以去跟其他部門討論一下，為什麼他們遇到性騷擾或是性侵害時，反而是通知勞動部以外的人比較多？因為這個數字的落差還滿大。"],["許部長銘春：好，這個我們來瞭解一下。"],["陳委員菁徽：再來，我們講到印度移工，由您簽署的MOU，裡面有提到一個直接解聘計畫，也就是……"],["許部長銘春：直接聘僱。"],["陳委員菁徽：對，直接聘僱計畫，這就是您之前跟我一起討論的直聘中心嗎？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["陳委員菁徽：可是我們已經講過，不管是我提出來的問題或者是之前法制局也有講，你們直聘中心的成效不佳，包括流程繁瑣、宣傳不利等等，所以真正使用的委託率非常的低，並且在近幾年也沒有什麼增長。","上次我們3月6號就已經討論過了，但是今天4月24了，我上網看你們的流程，官網上還是一模一樣，完全沒有改變，請問你具體想要如何改善直聘中心？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實我們都一直在滾動檢討，委員提過以後我有要求業務單位要全盤，包括我們最近有開一個擴大的研商會議，看怎麼把這個制度建立得更好用、更簡便，因為這個制度要讓大家易於使用。"],["陳委員菁徽：這邊提供您一個建議，因為立法院的法制局最近有針對直聘中心進行一些研究跟檢討，它表示勞動部應該要優化，簡化申請流程以及加強聯繫服務，它覺得可以去參考韓國的聘僱許可制，因為韓國的聘僱許可制的整個過程是由政府來資助，他們很重視移工嘛！"],["許部長銘春：它就是成立一個公立……"],["陳委員菁徽：對、對、對，所以他們幾乎是幫雇主提供total solution，全方面地去解決，雇主是不需要負擔任何成本的，不管是時間成本或是金錢成本等等，而它只要支付移工就業前的訓練費用就可以了。他們的勞動部把這個當成當地產業跟企業的重點服務項目，也可以避免移工遭受不當的剝削、強迫勞動等等的不當對待，這個本席提供給你的參考。"],["許部長銘春：好，他們好的制度我們來參考，因為韓國的直聘是因為他們開放比較晚，所以一開始就……"],["陳委員菁徽：做得很到位。"],["許部長銘春：它就做到位，我們是因為已經先走私人仲介，後面再走有時候就會有一些困難，不過沒關係，我們會持續來檢討並精進。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員的質詢。","接下來請邱鎮軍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.4778437500000003,"end":5.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.00909375,"end":5.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.98784375,"end":7.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.26159375,"end":9.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.329093750000002,"end":9.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.016593750000002,"end":22.930343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.47034375,"end":28.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.85346875,"end":36.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.58721875,"end":31.637843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.85721875,"end":31.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.565343750000004,"end":37.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.37534375,"end":50.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.79534375,"end":57.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.00596875,"end":52.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.540968750000005,"end":65.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.236593750000004,"end":62.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.907218750000006,"end":63.210968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.52284375,"end":67.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.21034375,"end":68.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.27346875,"end":68.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.74596875,"end":78.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.87971875000001,"end":77.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.97221875000001,"end":87.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.84846875000001,"end":95.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.88096875000001,"end":97.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.35346875,"end":96.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.54721875,"end":120.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.18284375,"end":108.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.58221875000001,"end":118.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.59471875000001,"end":118.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.45096875,"end":121.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.42971875,"end":124.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.02409375,"end":127.47096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.31034375000002,"end":133.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.96784375000001,"end":139.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.16096875,"end":150.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.11284375,"end":161.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.44471875000002,"end":160.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.20409375,"end":164.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.39346875,"end":165.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.86159375,"end":175.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.32096875000002,"end":169.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.81846875000002,"end":171.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.15534375000001,"end":180.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.87221875,"end":191.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.10659375,"end":194.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.65034375000002,"end":214.36034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.47846875000002,"end":216.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.02659375000002,"end":242.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.52034375000002,"end":263.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.65534375000001,"end":243.89159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.86971875,"end":249.86534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.66909375,"end":277.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.83721875000003,"end":268.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.39721875000004,"end":275.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.67534375,"end":280.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.64534375,"end":284.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.62784375,"end":284.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.74596875000003,"end":306.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.93659375000004,"end":308.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.84346875,"end":312.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.62346875000003,"end":321.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":317.88846875,"end":318.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.00221875,"end":329.75159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.68096875000003,"end":323.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.50346875,"end":326.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.97971875,"end":328.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.46471875000003,"end":335.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.82721875000004,"end":332.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.01221875000005,"end":336.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.38346875,"end":355.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.85721875,"end":368.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.64846875,"end":392.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.16784375000003,"end":401.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.92596875000004,"end":415.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.01659375,"end":417.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.51409375000003,"end":433.29659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":433.48221875,"end":442.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":443.01659375,"end":449.74971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.98596875000004,"end":450.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":450.88034375,"end":455.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.34784375000004,"end":476.00721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.73284375000003,"end":478.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.82096875,"end":481.03596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":481.35659375000006,"end":481.91346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.35221875,"end":487.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.20784375000005,"end":488.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":488.93346875000003,"end":489.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.26659375,"end":500.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.76284375000006,"end":509.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.10784375000003,"end":507.19221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.58034375000005,"end":507.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":509.63909375000003,"end":520.2703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.56659375,"end":514.8703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.8484687499999,"end":527.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":522.0590937500001,"end":522.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":527.32409375,"end":541.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.68909375,"end":541.0772187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.22909375,"end":541.7353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":541.7353437500001,"end":541.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.80284375,"end":542.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.54534375,"end":542.8659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.8659687500001,"end":543.1697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.1697187500001,"end":561.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":551.8603437500001,"end":552.8897187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.0915937500001,"end":557.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":562.22159375,"end":578.5903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":578.65784375,"end":585.71159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":582.31971875,"end":582.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.7790937500001,"end":586.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":586.38659375,"end":592.5290937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":592.61346875,"end":596.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":595.8872187500001,"end":607.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.91221875,"end":598.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.2197187500001,"end":601.7765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":603.71721875,"end":604.3247187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":605.52284375,"end":605.8940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":608.05409375,"end":609.1340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.5053437500001,"end":609.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":609.62346875,"end":609.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":610.29846875,"end":614.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":615.10784375,"end":619.7990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.7990937500001,"end":620.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":619.9509687500001,"end":621.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":621.6384687500001,"end":625.1147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":625.50284375,"end":631.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":631.96596875,"end":645.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.48284375,"end":646.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":646.69784375,"end":656.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":648.4865937500001,"end":649.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":656.16471875,"end":656.3503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":656.45159375,"end":678.6084687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.7265937500001,"end":687.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":679.38471875,"end":680.1609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":681.4265937499999,"end":682.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":687.06284375,"end":688.6828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.10909375,"end":699.1115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":695.4834687500002,"end":695.9053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":698.47034375,"end":699.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":699.85409375,"end":700.9678437500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.783,"end":27.716,"text":"主席我想請部長請許部長謝謝各位官員也早安陳院長部長上禮拜有一個蠻嚴重的新聞就是在東營區這個營區發現說海軍陸戰隊有66位非法的逃逸的移工嘛對然後他們已經去了三次移民署去了三次都撲空"},{"start":28.917,"end":48.976,"text":"表示他們其實是有線民在通報啦但第4次有發現有6位失聯的逃逸的移工那這個移工的管理我想除了移民署有責任勞動部也有責任所以像這樣子的狀況你們有想要再去追查源頭嗎因為這個承包公司他一定有"},{"start":50.037,"end":66.102,"text":"報告委,我們一定會追查,這些那個查獲的非法移工,我們也都會了解他們,他們的到底是誰介紹的,怎麼來的,對,一定會追的,這一定要追。但是還沒開始。"},{"start":72.185,"end":94.976,"text":"但是勞動力發展署的工作到底哪些企業有僱用非法移工還有你們網上追查像這些公務機關的標案都是很公開的啊所以對你們而言去追查同一家這個承包商他是不是還有其他的工程這應該是很容易的吧"},{"start":97.043,"end":120.425,"text":"對 這個應該是可以對 那個跟委員報告我們現在其實在整個查緝其實我們跟移民署大概第一個就是一定會溯源針對他背後的非法僱用的對象跟媒介者這一定會查第二個就是說對於這個工程他當初的這個包商其實我們也會瞭解他的一個合法併顧的狀況那也會大概做一些相關的清查的工作"},{"start":121.513,"end":149.475,"text":"好因為這也是很危害我們國安的問題嘛好下一個我們來看一下這個失聯移工啊現在還有涉入詐騙的問題居然他在離境前他每一本這個帳戶可以標到40萬啊所以部長你會知道說這幾年我們失聯移工或者是移工涉刑案的人數有多少然後哪一類的犯罪在成長嗎"},{"start":151.235,"end":174.98,"text":"報告委員其實整體這移工不管是合法或失聯的他其實他的犯罪率還是比我們國人低是但是他在攀升您知道嗎這個大概他攀升大部分都是酒駕最多這個部分我們會加強宣導就是請移工要珍惜工作今天這種一旦殺"},{"start":177.801,"end":193.93,"text":"好,這邊我幫你找出來了因為詐騙隨著科技的發達全世界都是不斷的攀升嘛所以我們查到的這個外籍人頭賬戶的人數就不斷在成長那我們看一下右邊這個表比較清楚"},{"start":194.75,"end":210.247,"text":"移工社刑事案件的件數我們把最大規模的找出來最大規模就是剛部長提到的公共危險罪再來就是詐欺罪也就是詐騙相關的他們有的時候是加害人有時候是被害人"},{"start":210.768,"end":230.841,"text":"但光是從110年到112年他是三倍的成長所以最近當然大家都一直在探討移工問題我們也許缺工所以我們必須要引進可是像這樣子不管是失聯、逃逸或者是刑事案件增加或是介入新的犯罪級"},{"start":231.601,"end":231.781,"text":"議會主席"},{"start":260.289,"end":277.351,"text":"離境的或者失聯的我們會提供賬戶的這些資料給這個金管會讓他們來最近有討論有有有有金融機構他就會做注意就是說這些賬戶有異常的資金進來就會去注意是不是有"},{"start":277.711,"end":305.026,"text":"但是從移工端你有沒有想到要去宣導?我要做宣導啊,報告員我們會宣導這個部分對,這個上次我們也有討論過他們的在台工作需職嘛是關於他的賬戶啊等等的這裡面只有提到說你一定要透過合法的管道匯錢回到家鄉或是你一定要保管好自己的證件但是對於剛提到的詐騙等等你們這個"},{"start":307.011,"end":307.371,"text":"指本我們會再印製。"},{"start":336.516,"end":351.819,"text":"下一個議題當然是更令人難過啦但是許許多多的像台劇有一個叫八尺門的辯護人他裡面就有一個情節是寫到說這個外籍移工他被僱主塞小費然後撫摸了屁股臀部"},{"start":352.66,"end":367.914,"text":"從性騷擾最後可能演變成性侵害這也是許多媒體他們會報導的他去訪問可能有性侵害的受害人這個移工他就講到說一開始也是一樣跟這個劇情一樣"},{"start":369.055,"end":392.468,"text":"試探性的去播放一些色情的影片．或者是問一下他有沒有結婚．要不要嫁給他．以及口頭的吃豆腐．到最後呢就更嚴重的性侵害、性暴力等等．當然檢察官會問受害者說怎麼前面沒有說．他說前面當然僱主就說你如果敢說出去的話我就會把你送回去．"},{"start":393.288,"end":417.045,"text":"所以我們雖然2023年就通過了新平三法的修法也努力在做性別平權可是連勞動部你們內部發布的統計光是台灣一般接到性騷擾這是你發布的官方數據有九成的人其實是不敢說的只有一成的人他會出來訴苦或是報案"},{"start":418.567,"end":441.677,"text":"移工的生活環境比我們一般人還要隱暗所以像這樣子家事的移工他就是跟他們日夜相處在一起更容易遇到這樣子的問題那當然我們也很不希望這樣子的故事會讓國外對我們有更不好的印象畢竟我們是一個人權立國的國家那這邊我來整理一下"},{"start":443.232,"end":451.759,"text":"十年左右呢 這個外籍性侵統計的案件加起來就有將近800件好 比較難過的是透過1955來受理的"},{"start":457.404,"end":478.276,"text":"這五年內大概是199可是衛福部的數字是362表示什麼呢外籍移工沒有把你勞動部1955當成有利的靠山馬他會跟你聯絡關於他的性侵害、性騷擾這裏面還沒有統計到性騷擾這裏面只有統計性侵害所以他主動是打給"},{"start":479.861,"end":486.734,"text":"警察或是打給其他的單位但是他沒有覺得跟勞動部講會有用欸"},{"start":490.334,"end":518.053,"text":"其實報委我們其實都透過多元的信訊管道告訴移工說你只要有受到任何不法侵害或騷擾1955就是你的第一時間你馬上可以求救的而且他只要一打進來我們一定會立案查處那其實我們這邊的受理的數據件數的統計包括性騷擾其他的各種不法的遭受不法侵害通通都有"},{"start":518.473,"end":520.275,"text":"為什麼他們是遇到性騷擾或是性騷擾反而是通知勞動部以外的人比較多因為這個數字的落差還蠻大的"},{"start":543.275,"end":561.292,"text":"好,那再來呢我們講到印度移工您簽署的MOU裡面有提到有一個直接解聘計畫也就是直接聘僱計畫這就是您之前跟我一起討論的職聘中心嗎?是可是我們已經講過了不管是"},{"start":562.313,"end":581.392,"text":"我提出來的問題或者是之前法治局也有講你們職聘中心的成效不佳就是包括過流程繁瑣啊宣傳不利啊等等所以真正使用的委託率非常的低並且在近幾年沒有什麼增長好所以上次我們3月6號就已經討論過了但是今天4月25、24"},{"start":586.477,"end":614.256,"text":"我上網看你們的流程在官網上還是一模一樣完全沒有改變請問你具體有想要如何改善這個其實我們都一直在滾動檢討那委員提過因為我有要求要全盤包括我最近我們就會開會開一個擴大的研商會議看怎麼把這個制度"},{"start":615.197,"end":635.715,"text":"而建立的更好用、更簡便因為這個制度要讓大家一律來使用這邊提供您一個建議因為立法院的法治局在最近嘛他有針對職聘中心進行一些研究跟檢討他說勞動部應要優化簡化申請流程還有加強聯繫服務他覺得可以去參考韓國的"},{"start":637.436,"end":655.778,"text":"解聘許可制因為韓國的解聘許可制它整個過程是由政府來資助他們很重視移工嘛所以他們幾乎是幫僱主提供total solution全方面的去解決僱主是不需要負擔任何的成本的"},{"start":656.799,"end":678.315,"text":"對不管是時間成本或是金錢成本等等的所以呢他還可以他只要支付移工就業前的訓練費用就可以了所以他們的勞動部他把這個當成當地的產業跟企業的重點服務項目也可以避免移工遭受不當的剝削來強迫勞動等等不當的對待這個是本席提供的參考"},{"start":679.776,"end":679.796,"text":"謝謝部長,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151725","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151725","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15b12d70aa2e873fd920df1bb4ac2af973c68e374cd8c4bed0df663d1e515b30ea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:34:31 - 09:48:17","影片長度":"00:13:46","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":826,"end_time":"2024-04-25T09:48:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T09:34:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":176,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時34分）謝謝召委，請一下王次長及公視胡元輝董事長。"],["主席：有請次長及胡董事長。"],["萬委員美玲：兩位早。首先就教一下，去年5月26日立法院三讀通過了公視法的修正案，其中第一條的條文將公視定位為彌補商業電視的不足，修法之後刪除了所謂小而美的角色，同時也讓公視可以掙脫每一年政府可以捐贈9億的上限、你們所謂的緊箍咒。距離修法將近1年了，我想先請教一下胡董事長，公視因為去年的修法之後，現在有更多的製播量能嗎？修法之後，對於公視有哪一些幫助？請您說明一下。"],["胡董事長元輝：謝謝委員。在修法之後的確在文化部6億元的捐贈經費增加之下，最大的改變就是我們在今年8月可以推出一個全媒體服務的兒少內容服務；另外，在其他部分，我們也希望增加效能，所以我們每天在相關不同類型節目的制度上都會訂定當年要求的……"],["萬委員美玲：所以會不斷進步？"],["胡董事長元輝：我們希望這樣。"],["萬委員美玲：未來的成績也會自己設定以後，達到滿意，是這樣子嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：我想有一些部分我們也還覺得需要再進步，有檢討空間。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我們來看，公視4月8日公布今年第1季的收視率，結果平均只有0.09，頻道排名第29名，收視的平均及排名都比去年還要再下滑，整個頻道的排名更是5年來的最差，我們如果再來看晚間時段的收視率，更只有0.19，也是繼2008年以來的新低。","胡董事長，我想請教一下，為什麼我們立法院修法讓公視有更多的製播量能、給你更多揮灑的空間，文化部的補助也從去年的9億暴增到30億，您剛剛也說了，我們給予這麼多的調整，結果你交出來這種成績單，你覺得這樣的表現有及格嗎？在你預料之中嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：跟委員報告一下，所謂捐贈經費的增加，有一部分是原來補助項目調整為捐贈……"],["萬委員美玲：董事長，本席的問題是，這樣的成績你滿意嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：當然還是有強化的空間，不過我還是……"],["萬委員美玲：只是有強化的空間，所以你覺得還可以，是這樣嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：因為我們現在從去年……"],["萬委員美玲：次長，我想我們來看一下這個成績，這樣的成績覺得還可以，你可以接受喔？補助這麼多的經費，法令上給予很多的鬆綁，希望它有好的表現，結果排名是5年來最差，收視率一直往下降，怎麼會這樣呢？"],["王次長時思：委員，面臨頻道收視習慣改變的情況下，現在整個都往數位頻道的方向去發展，這也是公視的努力，我們也希望公視透過這一次的修法及預算的變更，把整個定位調向更往產製的中心、更往內容的中心，所以的確有很大需要調整、改變的地方。"],["萬委員美玲：好，產製我們等一下來談。次長，每一分錢都應該要花在刀口上，當然收視習慣有改變，這是一個不爭的事實，也因此我們給公視很多的支持，但我們給公視很多的支持，卻交出這樣的成績單。胡董事長，麻煩一下，這樣的成績單顯然是不及格，你覺得有什麼樣改進的方案嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：雖然我們從去年開始全面加速數位轉型，希望提供在其他平臺的服務，不過我還是覺得原來的頻道的確對於譬如像年紀比較長的壯世代觀眾來講是非常重要的，所以這塊我們還是會努力。"],["萬委員美玲：我想會後你應該要擬訂一個計畫出來，因為本席剛剛聽到的都是你點出過去既有的問題點，只有既有的問題點，卻沒有辦法、計畫，問題永遠就在那裡。所以本席給你一個建議，現在問題點出來了，計畫是什麼？你預計怎麼改？循序漸進怎麼做？我們沒有要求你今天是29名、歷年來收視最低，馬上要竄升到第1，這是不可能的事情，但你要調整、要有計畫出來，所以我希望針對這些問題點、這些計畫，你要開始做。","再來，剛剛提到公視預算8月20日要把公視第三臺轉型成公視兒少頻道，針對這一點，胡董事長，公視準備好了嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：我們現在全力衝刺當中。"],["萬委員美玲：準備好了嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：我們希望，我們應該是有信心的。"],["萬委員美玲：有信心，但是準備工作做了嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：我們按時間表在操課。"],["萬委員美玲：好，所以是有信心可以完成，是這樣嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：對。"],["萬委員美玲：很好！因為只有信心，沒有計畫，缺乏執行力，那是不行的，好嗎？既然你有信心，也有目標了，是不是你要為公視的兒少頻道訂一個平均收視的目標？這是最清楚的。"],["胡董事長元輝：跟委員說明一下，因為今年8月才要開始，所以我們覺得今年的經驗……"],["萬委員美玲：所以要請你定目標啊！"],["胡董事長元輝：意思就是說，我們今年的經驗可以作為我們來年定目標的重要參考。今年的目標，如果您談的是收視率的話，我們還涉及到頻道的位置還有其他相關資源的準備，所以這個部分我們真的要跟委員說明一下。"],["萬委員美玲：董事長，這個頻道拿文化部高達6億的預算，當然您是說依據今年開播之後來調整明年的收視目標，我可以接受，那叫調整，但你不可能一個新臺拿文化部的補助卻沒有目標，今年來做做看，做完以後，明年我們再來設定目標，這是不能接受的，好不好？"],["王次長時思：委員，我想我們再把整體的目標，包括流量的目標提供給委員。"],["萬委員美玲：很好！次長這樣做就是對的，我們的錢補助出去，當然要有目標嘛！董事長說我們今年先做做看，等明年我們再依據今年的狀況調整目標，怎麼可能啦！這不是我把6億丟到水裡去的概念嗎？給你試試看，來做一個遊戲玩一玩嗎？不是這樣子的，目標一定要定出來，所以次長講的我可以接受。"],["王次長時思：我們一定會要求。"],["萬委員美玲：次長跟董事長，文化部專報的第2頁也有指出來，在節目製作方面，公視在112年兒少新製的節目時數326個小時，113年要提升到362個小時，也就是大概提升10%左右。我想請教一下，因為6億的預算真的非常多，但是6億的經費下來了，結果我們整個新製只有提升10個百分點，增加36個小時，我覺得這個時數合理嗎？為什麼這麼少，而要花這麼多的經費？"],["王次長時思：委員，不好意思！剛剛有解釋過，因為它的計算基礎在之前不應該是362，362是指純自製，事實上它是639小時，所以是提升超過百分之百，它的數字基礎應該是前後計算有誤，這個更新的資料我們再提供給委員。"],["萬委員美玲：麻煩以後要有正確的數字，好嗎？好不好？"],["王次長時思：是，應該是把所有新製的時數都算上，但它提供的362指的是純自製。"],["萬委員美玲：本席感覺這個新製的節目，我們對它賦予很高的期待，也給很多的支持，可是目前為止看起來有一點手忙腳亂、荒腔走板，要目標沒有目標，計算一些數值還會有錯誤，我覺得看起來還沒完全準備好，其實非常擔憂。"],["王次長時思：它應該在全力衝刺，我們可以再補充。"],["萬委員美玲：今天召委排了這樣的一個題目，經過所有委員提出來的意見，要好好拿回去做成一個紀錄，想想看目標怎麼定，過去有錯誤、不足的地方怎麼去增加。再來，我想請教專報第10頁提到的，在公視兒少頻道推動策略中，我們要匯聚臺灣原創動畫的能量，鼓勵原創IP投入兒少動畫影集的製作，我們希望能開發國內帶狀動畫的影集，藉由支持國內動畫製作技術整合，打造臺灣原創IP動畫影像，我覺得非常好。","但是胡董事長，本席一樣要請教你，目前公視是不是已經找到原創IP來投入製作全新的兒少動畫影集了？同時，因為剛剛說8月20日這個頻道要開播，所以在8月20日之前我們的成果是什麼？"],["胡董事長元輝：在徵案的部分，原創IP動畫已經委託出去了，這個可以跟委員報告。第二個，剛才我只是解釋一下，我說收視率沒有，但我們有其他的KPI，並不是沒有其他的KPI，所以這點也跟委員說明。您如果要知道動畫的部分，我可以請我們同仁說明一下原創IP。"],["萬委員美玲：好。"],["徐總經理秋華：開臺的時候是勇者動畫系列第二季會播出。"],["萬委員美玲：什麼時候？"],["徐總經理秋華：8月20日。"],["萬委員美玲：8月20日？所以您所說的勇者動畫系列就會如期播出？"],["徐總經理秋華：對，那是我們現在已經在做的。"],["萬委員美玲：你確定嗎？你要很確定，在這裡可是不能亂答的喔！如果你說8月20日就能播出，如果8月20日我們沒看到的話，誰來負責？在這裡答詢可是不能亂講的喔！"],["徐總經理秋華：年底的時候，剛剛製作人來跟我們補充……"],["萬委員美玲：哪一年的年底？"],["徐總經理秋華：今年年底。"],["萬委員美玲：今年的年底？"],["徐總經理秋華：對。"],["萬委員美玲：所以剛剛8月20日是亂講的，是嗎？"],["徐總經理秋華：是宣傳，其實我們會先播第一季，新的第二季會在年底播出。"],["萬委員美玲：好，除了這個勇者動畫系列，再來呢？"],["林副理瓊芬：今年徵案的部分，有一個IP是「我是陳派派」，它是黏土動畫，就是捏麵人的動畫，是今年徵案進來的，預計在明年9月的時候可以推出，它是一個逐格動畫，這次就有一家競標的部分來進行。"],["萬委員美玲：因為我們看到8月20日就要開播了，我們有一個這麼好的想法，可是看起來還是沒有追上我們原來希望在開播前就如期完成這個計畫，所以時程都要往後delay，甚至今天公視的相關同仁來報告，這個時程也是亂七八糟，一下說8月、一下說年底、一下有明年，你們都掌握不住，今天要來這裡備詢，連正確的資料都沒辦法提供，其實真的非常堪憂，這樣的補助經費丟下去，到底公視能不能執行好？","次長，我們有補助，公視也有很多同仁很辛苦、很努力，但是要拿出一些成果來，所以相關的計畫我希望能夠再嚴謹一點去看待、把它提出來，好不好？"],["王次長時思：我們一定會再協助他們，再做督促。"],["萬委員美玲：次長，最後一點時間再一個問題，這個地震到現在為止，我們看到各地文資災損的情況應該都不輕，原來說各地文資的災損共計59處，其中還包含國定古蹟等等，因為最近還是有很多餘震，你今天在這裡能不能說明一下，目前我們全國文資災損的情形是如何？"],["王次長時思：現在整體來說，我記得我們大概整理兩百多處大大小小的，整體需要的經費有三億多，這三億多我們計畫從中央的災損基金，還有就是我們本來的……"],["萬委員美玲：你說有多少處的文資災損？"],["王次長時思：我可以拿一下我桌上的資料嗎？"],["萬委員美玲：你說有兩百多處的文資災損？"],["王次長時思：各式各樣的。"],["萬委員美玲：各式各樣兩百多處的文資災損？"],["王次長時思：我們文資局有一個清點數據。"],["萬委員美玲：所以地震到現在，你們都還沒有統計出來？"],["王次長時思：有，已經統計出來了。"],["萬委員美玲：兩百多處？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，因為今天的專題報案是兒少，所以文資局沒有在場。"],["萬委員美玲：不、不、不，這個你要掌握啊！還是要掌握，這也是重要的，不是嗎？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，原先已經有69處的文化資產完成現勘，這些文化資產一共需求3.4億，這3.4億我們計畫在三年內來做修復。"],["萬委員美玲：次長，你說的是69處全部完成現勘了？這是你現在的說法嗎？"],["王次長時思：是的，69處的文化資產。"],["萬委員美玲：你要對委員會負責任喔！這69處文化資產的災損完成現勘了，是這樣嗎？"],["王次長時思：現在是專業服務團隊完成現勘，第一時間現勘……"],["萬委員美玲：完成了嗎？如果沒有完成，你在這裡胡亂回答，我們是不接受的！全部完成了嗎？因為這非常重要，這中間有很多的國定古蹟，完成了嗎？"],["王次長時思：目前我的資料是由各地完成69處，有3.4億是已經估計出來的，如果陸陸續續有接到彙報，我們還會再持續進行。"],["萬委員美玲：好，次長，這一點非常重要，因為地震到現在，餘震不斷，未來的災損情況要隨時掌控，我們要趕快現勘的就要去現勘，該花多少錢、多少時間要有一個計畫下去，趕快把它彌補回來，好不好？這個還是要掌握一下。"],["王次長時思：會，掌握的狀況已經在執行當中，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝萬美玲委員，次長請回。","我們接下來請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","葉元之","陳培瑜","何欣純","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","范雲","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","林月琴","陳冠廷","羅智強"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫─ 公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":5.8697187500000005,"end":13.075343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":18.40784375,"end":60.055343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.20721875,"end":81.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.29659375,"end":88.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":87.61221875000001,"end":88.86096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.67096875,"end":90.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":89.78909375,"end":94.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.86846875,"end":99.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":98.24346875,"end":150.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.34909375,"end":157.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.52534375000002,"end":160.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":160.64721875,"end":164.71409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.23721875,"end":168.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":167.51534375,"end":170.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.96221875,"end":170.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":170.50221875,"end":170.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":170.68784375,"end":174.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":174.61971875,"end":187.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.84971875000002,"end":193.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.05971875,"end":209.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":203.52659375000002,"end":204.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":205.26471875000001,"end":207.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":207.96471875,"end":221.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":223.10159375,"end":223.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":225.43034375000002,"end":230.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.99909375000001,"end":241.34346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.61346875,"end":244.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.63409375,"end":249.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":250.40534375000001,"end":294.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.84971875,"end":298.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.34284375000004,"end":299.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.03471875,"end":302.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":302.44784375,"end":304.89471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.36721875,"end":308.06721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":308.06721875,"end":325.00971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.66596875000005,"end":310.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.86846875000003,"end":310.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.81971875,"end":330.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":330.49409375000005,"end":332.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.12659375000004,"end":333.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.97034375000004,"end":351.13221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":350.69346875,"end":373.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.05284375,"end":373.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":373.72784375000003,"end":374.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.03159375,"end":381.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":375.11159375,"end":375.14534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":375.19596875,"end":375.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":380.98409375,"end":382.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.26659375,"end":382.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":382.30034375,"end":438.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.77284375000005,"end":382.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.14596875,"end":398.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.19659375000003,"end":398.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.33159375,"end":398.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.03846875000005,"end":455.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":439.82721875000004,"end":440.60346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.38159375000004,"end":466.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":460.36409375000005,"end":460.75221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":465.89909375,"end":543.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":485.32221875000005,"end":485.69346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.33409375,"end":564.61784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":566.6765937499999,"end":573.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":573.02159375,"end":573.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":573.62909375,"end":573.6628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":573.6628437500001,"end":573.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":573.71346875,"end":573.9665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":573.9665937500001,"end":585.4753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":586.53846875,"end":591.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":592.59659375,"end":593.0522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":594.5203437499999,"end":595.0265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":595.0265937500001,"end":596.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":600.4265937499999,"end":607.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":602.2490937499999,"end":602.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":605.40471875,"end":605.4384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":607.64909375,"end":607.6828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":609.18471875,"end":616.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":618.3984687500001,"end":620.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":620.4740937500001,"end":638.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":636.9272187500001,"end":637.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":637.2478437500001,"end":637.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":637.87221875,"end":638.1084687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":638.14221875,"end":638.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":638.96909375,"end":693.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":682.55721875,"end":683.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":693.59346875,"end":710.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":710.02971875,"end":732.4565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.41909375,"end":729.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":732.77721875,"end":737.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":738.9197187500001,"end":751.5590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":748.4878437500001,"end":749.1628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":751.10346875,"end":751.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":751.77846875,"end":752.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":753.46596875,"end":754.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":754.88346875,"end":766.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":763.99596875,"end":765.0928437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":765.6328437500001,"end":770.1047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":768.2822187500001,"end":768.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":771.30284375,"end":775.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":772.9397187500001,"end":774.2053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":775.0322187500001,"end":777.0065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":777.2934687500001,"end":781.9509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":781.1240937500002,"end":781.8159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":783.01409375,"end":784.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":784.97159375,"end":790.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":790.60784375,"end":790.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":790.9622187500001,"end":790.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":790.97909375,"end":791.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":791.89034375,"end":791.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":792.4978437500001,"end":794.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":795.5859687500001,"end":807.9722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":807.9722187500001,"end":820.7297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":819.39659375,"end":821.9109687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":821.4384687500001,"end":821.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":822.2822187500001,"end":822.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":822.2990937500001,"end":822.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":824.6615937500001,"end":824.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":824.7122187500001,"end":824.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":824.72909375,"end":824.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":824.93159375,"end":824.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":824.9653437500001,"end":825.9440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":825.9440937500001,"end":825.9778437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.902,"end":6.563,"text":"王次長和胡董事長"},{"start":18.664,"end":42.216,"text":"好,兩位早我想首先先就教一下去年5月26號我們立法院三度通過了公視法的修正案那將其中第一條的條文公視定位為彌補商業電視不足修法之後刪除了這個所謂的小而美的一個角色同時我們也讓公視可以掙脫每一年政府可以捐贈9億上限這個你們所謂的緊箍咒那這個距離這個修法"},{"start":46.638,"end":48.339,"text":"謝謝委員在修法之後的確在文化部6億元的捐贈經費的增加之下"},{"start":67.185,"end":67.685,"text":"所以會不斷進步?"},{"start":89.924,"end":94.267,"text":"我們來看公視4月8日公布今年第一季的收視率結果平均只有0.09頻道排名第29名收視的平均跟排名都比去年還要再下滑了整個頻道的排名更是5年來的最差"},{"start":117.804,"end":134.111,"text":"我們再來看這個晚間時段的收視率更只有0.19也是繼2008年以來的新低所以胡董事長我想請教一下為什麼我們立法院修法讓公視有更多的制播的量呢有給你更多的揮灑的空間那文化部的補助也從去年的9億暴增到了一個30億結果呢"},{"start":139.153,"end":164.16,"text":"您剛才也說了我們給予這麼多的調整結果你交出來是這種成績單你認為這樣的表現你有覺得有及格嗎?在你預料之中嗎?跟委員報告一下所謂捐贈經費的增加是有一部分是原來補助項目調整為捐贈董事長本席的問題是這樣的一個成績你滿意嗎?"},{"start":165.727,"end":187.058,"text":"當然還是有強化的空間只是有強化的空間所以你覺得還可以是這樣嗎那個董事長我想我們來看一下這個成績這樣成績覺得還可以這你可以接受補助這麼多的經費然後這個法令上給予很多的鬆綁希望他有好的表現結果排名是五年來最差收視率一直往下降怎麼會這樣呢"},{"start":188.459,"end":193.125,"text":"委員在整個面臨頻道收視習慣改變的情況現在整個都往數位頻道的方向去發展所以這也是公視的努力我們也希望公視再透過這一次的修法跟運算的變更把它整個定位調向更往產製的中心更往內容的中心產製我們等一下來談"},{"start":207.922,"end":208.483,"text":"胡董事長麻煩一下胡董事長"},{"start":231.517,"end":249.324,"text":"雖然我們從去年開始全面加速數位轉型希望提供在其他平台的服務不過我還是覺得原來的頻道它的確對於像比如說年紀比較長的壯世代的這些觀眾來講是非常重要所以這塊我們還是會努力"},{"start":251.115,"end":256.598,"text":"我想 會後你應該要擬定一個計畫出來因為本席剛剛聽到的是你點出過去既有的問題點那你只有既有的問題點然後你沒有一個辦法沒有一個計畫問題永遠就在那裡所以我認為給本席給一個建議真的要擬出你現在問題點出來的計畫是什麼"},{"start":270.504,"end":284.068,"text":"你預計怎麼改嗎?循序經理怎麼做嗎?我們沒有要求你今天是29名然後歷年來收視最低馬上要竄升到第一這不可能的事情嘛那你要調整要有計畫出來所以呢我希望啦針對這些問題點這些計畫你要開始做啦那再來呢剛剛提到了公視預計8月20號要把公視的第3台轉型成公視兒少頻道那這一點胡董事長我們公視準備好了嗎?"},{"start":296.102,"end":324.822,"text":"我們現在存在於衝刺當中準備好了嗎?我們希望我們應該是有信心的有信心但是準備工作做了嗎?我們按時間表在操課所以是有信心可以完成是這樣嗎?對好很好因為只有信心沒有計畫缺乏執行力那是不行的好嗎?所以呢我想既然我們有信心也有目標了那是不是你要為這個公視的兒少頻道定一個平均收視的目標這是最清楚的"},{"start":326.168,"end":350.674,"text":"跟委員說明一下因為今年8月才要開始所以我們覺得今年的經驗所以要請你訂目標啊意思就是說我們今年的經驗可以作為我們訂目標來年訂目標的一個重要的參考今年的目標我們在如果您談的是收視率的話我們還涉及到頻道的位置還有其他相關的資源的準備所以這個部分我們真的要跟委員"},{"start":351.414,"end":376.406,"text":"我們拿文化部這個頻道拿文化部高達6億的預算但是呢當然您說就是依據今年我們這個開播之後來調整明年的這個收視目標我可以接受那叫調整但你不可能一個新台也拿了這個文化部的補助然後我沒有目標我說我今年來做做看說完以後明年我們再來設定目標這是不能接受的啦好不好我想我們再把整個"},{"start":377.446,"end":395.39,"text":"整體的目標跟包括流量整個的目標提供給委員很好 次長這樣做就是對的了我們錢補助出去了當然要有目標嘛所以董事長想說我們今年先來做做看然後等那個明年我們再來看看依據今年的狀況調整一個目標怎麼可能啦這不是我把六億丟到水裡去的概念嗎給你試試看來做一個遊戲玩一玩嗎不是這樣子的"},{"start":398.471,"end":413.784,"text":"這目標一定要定出來,所以次長講這個我可以接受那我想這個次長跟董事長這個文化部的專報我們看在第二頁有指出來在節目製作方面公視在112年這個兒少新制兒少新制的節目的時數326個小時113年要提升到362個小時也就是說"},{"start":419.669,"end":422.712,"text":"關於6億元的金費,我們新制的時數只有提升10個百分點,那就是增加36個小時。我覺得這個時數是合理嗎?"},{"start":437.662,"end":455.094,"text":"這個時數合理嗎?為什麼這麼少而要花這麼多的經費?委員不好意思,剛有解釋過因為它的計算基礎其實在之前不應該是362362是指純自治它事實上是639小時所以提升是超過百分之百所以它的數字的計算基礎應該是前後計算有誤所以這個更新的資料我們再提供給委員"},{"start":456.554,"end":475.908,"text":"麻煩以後要有正確的數字好嗎?是,主要是對,應該是把所有的新制的時數都算上但是他提供的362指的是其實本席感覺這一個新制的節目當然我們對他賦予很高的期待也給他很多的支持可是我看起來目前為止有一點手忙腳亂荒牆走板要目標沒有目標然後這個我們要計算一些數字還會有錯誤那看起來我覺得還沒有完全準備好"},{"start":484.394,"end":501.869,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":502.229,"end":519.513,"text":"再來我想請教一下專報第10頁我們提到在公視兒少頻道推動的策略中我們要去匯集臺灣原創動畫的能量然後鼓勵原創的IP來投入這個這個兒少動畫的一個影集的製作那我們希望能夠開發這國內帶狀動畫的影集然後藉由支持國內動畫製作的一個技術整合那可以達到打造臺灣原創IP動畫的一個影像我覺得非常的好但是胡董先生一樣本期要請教你目前"},{"start":531.195,"end":542.667,"text":"公視是不是已經有找到原創IP來投入這個製作全新的兒少動畫影集了那同時因為8月嘛剛剛說8月20喔這個頻道要開播那所以在8月20之前我們的成果是什麼"},{"start":544.984,"end":564.282,"text":"我們偵案的部分在原創IP的動畫部分已經委託出去了這個可以跟委員報告第二個就是剛才我只是解釋一下我說收視率沒有但我們有其他的KPI並不是沒有其他的KPI所以這點也跟委員說明那您如果要知道那個動畫的部分我可以請我們同仁說明一下那個原創IP"},{"start":567.544,"end":591.195,"text":"開台的時候是勇者動畫系列第二季會在開台時候播出。什麼時候?8月20。8月20?所以8月20您所說的這個勇者動畫系列就會如期播出?對,那是我們現在已經在做的。你確定嗎?你要很確定喔!在這裡可是不能亂打的喔!如果你說8月20就能播出,8月20那時候如果我們沒有看到的話,誰來負責?在這裡打詢可是不能亂講的喔!"},{"start":600.458,"end":600.879,"text":"除了這個勇者動畫系列再來呢?"},{"start":618.513,"end":636.958,"text":"我是陳派派。他是年土動畫,就是念念人的動畫,是今年真案進來的。那預計就是在明年的時候的9月的時候可以推出。那他是一個逐格動畫,也是這一次就會有一家競標的部分。"},{"start":637.918,"end":638.038,"text":"蘇珍妮娜議員"},{"start":668.098,"end":669.218,"text":"最後想一點點時間一個問題我想這個地震到現在為止我們看到在這個"},{"start":693.943,"end":694.444,"text":"目前全國文資災損的情形如何?"},{"start":712.395,"end":735.228,"text":"我們大概全國現在我記得整體來說我們大概整理了200多處大大小小的然後整體的需要經費有3億多那這3億多我們也計畫從中央的災損的基金還有就是我們你說所有多少處的文資災損我可以拿一下我桌上的資料嗎你說有200多處的文資災損各式各樣的各式各樣的200多處的文資災損我們有一個清點數據文資局"},{"start":738.65,"end":740.432,"text":"兩百多處跟委員說明,因為今天的專題報告是兒少,所以文資局沒有在場。"},{"start":753.507,"end":755.267,"text":"市長,你說的是69處全部完成現刊了?"},{"start":755.267,"end":755.887,"text":"是的現在這是你的說法嗎?"},{"start":755.887,"end":759.168,"text":"是你要對委員會負責任喔69處的文化資產的這個篩選,完成現刊了是這樣嗎?現在是在專業服務團隊完成現刊,第一時間現刊,對完成了嗎?"},{"start":783.069,"end":783.63,"text":"目前我的資料是由各地"},{"start":795.666,"end":795.986,"text":"好,這個還是要掌握一下"},{"start":824.684,"end":824.704,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151724","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151724","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15087f36c94149075ce44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed0286ec5ce099167b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:36:35 - 09:47:11","影片長度":"00:10:36","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-17"},"duration":636,"end_time":"2024-04-25T09:47:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T09:36:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":259,"blocks":[["羅委員智強：（9時36分）主席，有請周秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：羅委員好。"],["羅委員智強：秘書長好。同樣地，我不會為難你，在不為難你的狀況之下，就要借重您對於立法院多年來議事規則還有相關程序進行的專業，就最近這一段時間有些疑問想要就教秘書長。首先，其實說真的，我最近看到這幾波有關於國會改革的討論或是攻防，我從中也學習到很多，第一個，我想要就教周秘書長，當國民黨提出國會改革五法之後，其實我們一直很努力地儘量能夠廣納意見，所以我看到我們的吳宗憲召委，當我們在推國會改革五法的時候，民進黨覺得討論不夠，那時候說討論不夠，我們就安排1場關於國民黨版國會改革五法的專報，還是覺得不夠，我們排了1場公聽會，民進黨直接還講1場公聽會不夠，要讓更多人聽到。所以我們的吳宗憲召委還特別延審兩個禮拜，本來排定要審國民黨版的國會改革五法，他還延審了兩個禮拜，然後讓民進黨可以再加開2場公聽會，1場專報、3場公聽會，請問吳宗憲召委這樣的做法是不是很獨裁？你覺得呢？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為這是由召集委員來排定，依據各委員會組織法規定，委員會的議程是由召集委員來排定。"],["羅委員智強：沒錯。"],["周秘書長萬來：所以2個召集委員都互有排定，我認為場次的多少我未便說明。"],["羅委員智強：當然，我知道你未便說明。但是我要跟各位講，吳宗憲召委贏得了民進黨2次所謂的譴責提案，然後說他很獨裁，這是民進黨對吳宗憲召委的待遇。接下來在這邊我想講的是，召委真的是做得不夠，你這樣做人家也不滿意，對不對？如果是這樣的話，我倒是對民進黨這次提出的國會改革五法有一個很個人的建議，如果吳宗憲召委做得不夠，我建議民進黨國會改革五法、國會改革版本，尤其是吳思瑤講跟國民黨不一樣，不一樣的話應該要更廣納社會大眾意見，不如開2場專報、5場公聽會，好不好？如果做不到吳宗憲召委的1場專報、3場公聽會的話，沒有關係，比照，讓民進黨的國會改革版本好好地就像國民黨的國會改革版本一樣，透過專報和3場公聽會讓社會大眾檢驗，讓大家好好看看民進黨的國會改革版本到底是怎麼樣一回事，我不知道秘書長覺得這個主意怎麼樣呢？"],["周秘書長萬來：尊重召集委員，因為各黨團都有1位召集委員。"],["羅委員智強：對，其實我問秘書長的時候，也同時在建議我們的鍾佳濱召委，也同時建議底下的民進黨委員們，既然民進黨版的國會改革這麼重要，基本上我覺得是可以讓社會大眾有更多時間好好地來討論。所以今天不如就讓我們各自表達意見之後，是不是也請鍾佳濱召委能夠從善如流學學吳宗憲召委的風度或者是獨裁，你們提案說公聽會不夠要再加開，吳宗憲召委馬上延審兩個禮拜，延審法案讓民進黨可以召開公聽會，所以我覺得真的要比照一下吳宗憲召委的作法。","我也幫吳宗憲召委說句話，如果吳宗憲召委的作法叫獨裁的話，我要就教一下周萬來秘書長，你也看過立法院風風雨雨幾十年，你知道民進黨執政8年常常開會5分鐘，直接強行表決，然後就散會了，因為人家的人數是多數，有優勢，輾壓完就散會了，你不要講國民黨想開公聽會沒得談，專報沒得談，連討論都5分鐘就解決掉了！我想請問如果吳宗憲召委主持會議6個小時的討論，1次專報、3次公聽會就叫獨裁，我不知道民進黨這叫什麼？皇帝嗎？是秦始皇嗎？還是朱元璋大帝呢？到底是怎麼回事？我不知道5分鐘結束1個立法院委員會的討論比較獨裁，還是吳宗憲召委討論6小時，舉行1場專報、3場公聽會比較獨裁呢？秘書長從你的多年經驗，你怎麼看這件事情？"],["周秘書長萬來：我離開9年多了，中間我的書也有稍微做幾個版的修正，其實我在「國會議事策略101」的序裡面有提過，當時對第10屆的院長擔任的時候，我有特別在序特別強調，希望在制度上能夠回歸議事規範，大家能夠遵守的範圍，我記得在「國會議事策略101」二版的序有特別做這個期許。"],["羅委員智強：非常謝謝秘書長。所以在這邊我希望，我們透過多次的議事過程當中，其實我覺得都是好事，大家可能有一些摩擦、衝突，就是衝突、妥協、進步，慢慢地讓我們的議事更能夠順應民意，能夠代表人民來監督政府，這一點就很重要。比方，舉個例子，我現在也在提案，我要提一個神盾局的條款，什麼叫神盾局條款？我會提案修改我們的一些議事規章，主席當然可以宣布休息，我覺得是沒有問題的，但主席宣布休息可不可以加一個開始和結束時間，起訖時間告訴大家，不要突然3個小時消失不見，這樣子耗盡所有人的時間在那邊等也不太好，我覺得休息要加時間，我不知道秘書長覺得這樣的建議是不是可以讓大家至少知道時間，休息時我們就去做很多我們自己該做的事情，因為每個委員都有很多想要做的事情嘛，那你要休息3小時的話，你就宣布休息3小時，3小時再回來開會啊，我不知道訂起訖時間你會不會覺得是一個比較好的作法呢？"],["周秘書長萬來：我想在禮拜二的院會，院長也有做一個……各位有看到禮拜二的情況，因為我們也有把時間稍微跟大會報告。現在的議事規則裡面，酌定休息時間當然是一個彈性的作法，當時為什麼立這個法是為了有一個彈性規範的休息時間。"],["羅委員智強：好，謝謝秘書長。","最後，我們就來看看，我為什麼跟大家講，我真的覺得民進黨版的國會改革，說真的，我看了以後有一個很大的感想，叫做怨總召變了心，以前有一首歌叫做怨蒼天變了心，我是怨總召變了心。因為我自己這段時間真的很努力地在看民進黨2016年跟2024年的版本，我越看越覺得到底是以前的柯總召有問題，還是現在的柯總召有問題，我開始覺得越來越困惑。我舉個例子，為什麼我剛剛特別強調，我真的希望針對民進黨2024的版本，可以多開幾場公聽會，大家一起來討論，原因是什麼？因為很多東西我真的、真的是看不懂，舉個例子，我不太懂為什麼2016年民進黨的版本要求相關行政機關提供議案的文件要提供原本，可是民進黨現在就把這些原本全部刪掉，說只能提供所謂的參考文件，必要時才能夠提供原本，這是我第一個不解的，為什麼要自我閹割呢？閹割的原因是什麼呢？是不是需要開公聽會來跟社會大眾說明，也許有高深的學問，羅智強智力不足啦，可能不知道、不懂為什麼今天民進黨的版本是這樣。再比方說民進黨現在新的版本當中，也包括對人事同意權的行使過程，本來2016年的版本是要求記名投票，到2024年，奇怪，怎麼變成不記名投票？我也不太懂，今天我們的立法院正副院長都進步到應該要用所謂的記名投票了，為什麼今天民進黨版的國會改革很奇怪，突然就好像又不需要公開透明了。還有包括民進黨2016年的版本是直接明文處罰說謊官員哦！有好多處罰態樣，處罰1萬到30萬元，秘書長知道嘛，對不對？可是民進黨2024年版本非常神奇的是，它特別把處罰說謊官員那一段刪掉，也就是說，所有的態樣裡面，說謊官員是不罰的，這麼神奇的民進黨2024國會改革版本，真的要拿出來多開公聽會，讓大家『聞香」，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝羅委員，也謝謝秘書長。在這裡因為有提及本席跟吳宗憲召委在輪值主席時有關公聽會的部分，跟委員會報告說明，在這次國會改革相關的法案中，由吳召委主持的會議中安排了1場公聽會，本席輪值主席的時候安排了2場公聽會，所以這3場公聽會分別是由我們兩個人共同來完成的，也請我們委員會在場的委員瞭解。","接下來請陳委員俊宇發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-17","speakers":["鍾佳濱","范雲","羅智強","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林思銘","吳思瑤","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員高金素梅等\n23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條\n之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案；三、繼續審查\n( 一) 民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」\n案、( 二) 委員賴瑞隆等16 人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草\n案」案；四、(一)繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審\n查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」\n案、( 四 ) 繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kaaw 等19 人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(五)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)審查\n委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133401_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.341593750000001,"end":12.113468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.78846875,"end":13.615343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.602218750000002,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.024093750000002,"end":17.496593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.95221875,"end":41.931593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.41284375,"end":40.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.40409375,"end":43.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.97346875,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.00784375,"end":121.53096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.93596875,"end":128.80409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.17971875,"end":128.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.37784375,"end":132.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.95971875,"end":132.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.44909375,"end":140.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.93721875,"end":146.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.55284375000002,"end":143.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.56096875,"end":158.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.67284375,"end":164.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.01784375,"end":177.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.23096875000002,"end":180.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.69471875000002,"end":191.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.57909375,"end":194.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.02159375000002,"end":203.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.18471875,"end":220.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.87409375000001,"end":228.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.28221875000003,"end":282.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.65346875,"end":284.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.03284375000004,"end":286.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.78784375000004,"end":299.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.59596875,"end":301.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.45659375,"end":300.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.05971875,"end":307.84784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.52284375,"end":317.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.90534375000004,"end":320.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.16221875,"end":324.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.89159375,"end":328.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.48596875000004,"end":335.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.80971875,"end":354.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.32159375000003,"end":355.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":355.48596875000004,"end":387.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.87534375,"end":375.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.64971875000003,"end":459.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.51596875,"end":465.42659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.76409375000003,"end":474.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.23096875000005,"end":485.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.87471875000006,"end":535.4578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.7109687500001,"end":614.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.62096875,"end":599.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":615.54659375,"end":621.1997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.9422187499999,"end":633.9740937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.598,"end":11.483,"text":"主席有請周秘書長請周秘書長"},{"start":16.841,"end":18.122,"text":"主席賴瑞隆"},{"start":42.652,"end":64.32,"text":"說真的我最近看到有關於國會改革的這幾波我們大家的討論或是攻防那我從中也學習到很多那第一個我就要想要就教一些我們的那個周秘書長就是說當國民黨就提出了國會改革無法之後"},{"start":65.08,"end":80.485,"text":"其實我們一直很努力的來去盡量能夠去廣納意見所以我看到我們的吳宗憲、昭偉當提出了我們在推這個國會改革無法的時候那民進黨就覺得是討論不夠啊對不對那時候說討論不夠嘛所以討論不夠結果我們現在我們就安排一場關於國民黨版的國會改革無法一場專報"},{"start":89.967,"end":95.871,"text":"還覺得不夠我們排了一場公聽會那民進黨就直接還講說一場公聽會不夠啊要更多人聽到啊所以就我們的吳宗憲招委還特別嚴審兩個禮拜本來排定要來審國民黨版的國會改革無法還嚴審了兩個禮拜"},{"start":108.818,"end":111.019,"text":"然後呢就讓民進黨可以再加開兩場公聽會一場專報三場公聽會請問吳宗憲的召委這樣做法是不是很獨裁啊覺得呢"},{"start":122.263,"end":146.729,"text":"因為這一個由召集委員來排定這一個因為我們各位組織法規定是委員會的議程是由召集委員來排定沒錯所以大概兩個召集委員都會有排這一個我是未變說這一個是到底是很場次的多少因為這一個大概我未變說明當然我知道你未變說明"},{"start":148.109,"end":164.285,"text":"但是我要跟各位講然後吳宗憲召委贏得了民進黨兩次的所謂的一個譴責提案然後就說他很獨裁這是民進黨對吳宗憲召委的待遇那接下來在這邊我想一想就是"},{"start":165.146,"end":179.754,"text":"章偉你真的是做得不夠啦對不對你這樣做人家也不滿意對不對所以可是哈如果是這樣的話我倒是對民進黨這次提出的國會改革無法為一個很很這個個人的建議啊如果吳宗憲章偉做得不夠"},{"start":180.774,"end":186.4,"text":"我建議民進黨的國會改革無法,國會改革的版本尤其吳仕堯講這跟國民黨不一樣嘛不一樣的話應該要更廣納社會大眾意見不如開兩場專報五場公聽會好不好如果做不到吳宗憲召委一場專報三場公聽會的話沒有關係比照就是讓我們的民進黨的國會改革"},{"start":204.258,"end":218.708,"text":"版本好好的就像國民黨的國會改革版本一樣透過專報跟三場公聽會讓社會大眾檢驗讓大家好好看看說民進黨的國會改革版本到底是怎麼樣一回事我不知道我們的秘書長你覺得這個主意怎麼樣呢"},{"start":221.142,"end":235.819,"text":"指重召集委員因為今天的召集委員是因為各黨團都有一位召集委員對對對我其實跟米斯坦問的時候也同時在建議我們的這個中嘉賓召委也同時建議我們的底下的民進黨的這個委員們"},{"start":237.941,"end":254.375,"text":"竟然民進黨版的這個國會改革這麼的重要那基本上我覺得是可以讓社會大臣有更多時間好好的來討論所以今天我們不如就讓我們今天大家各自表達意見之後的話是不是也請我們的中嘉賓的昭偉"},{"start":255.296,"end":284.209,"text":"能夠從善如流學學吳宗憲召委的風度或者是獨裁啦風度啦就說你們提案說你們說唉這公聽會不夠要再加開對不對阿吳宗憲召委就馬上就兩個禮拜嚴審阿嚴審法案就讓我們的民進黨可以召開公聽會啦所以我覺得真的是比照一下吳宗憲這個召委的做法齁如果說吳宗憲召委的做法我也幫吳宗憲召委說句話啦如果吳宗憲召委的做法叫做"},{"start":285.369,"end":300.753,"text":"獨裁的話那我要就校一下我們的那個周岸玉算你也看過立法院風風雨雨幾十年了對不對你知道民進黨執政八年常常開會五分鐘直接強行表決然後就散會啦表決五分鐘對不對因為人家人數多數嘛優勢嘛碾壓完就散會啦"},{"start":309.138,"end":335.105,"text":"你不要講說國民黨想開公聽會沒得談專報沒得談 對不對﹖連討論都給你五分鐘給你研究掉啊我想請問如果吳宗憲、張偉他主持會議六個小時的討論 對不對然後一次專報三次公聽會這叫獨裁我不知道民進黨這叫什麼皇帝嗎是秦始皇嗎還是說今天是朱元璋大帝呢"},{"start":335.945,"end":354.018,"text":"那到底是怎麼回事 我不知道五分鐘結束了一個所謂的立法院的一個委員會的討論比較獨裁還是今天吳宗憲召委六小時然後一場專報三場公聽會比較獨裁呢我不知道秘書長從你的多年的經驗你怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":355.639,"end":378.491,"text":"其實我離開九仁多啦,中間我的書裏面也有稍微做幾個版的修正啦。其實我在昨天學長的序裏面有提過啦。就是說當時對第十屆的院長當任的時候,我有特別在序有特別強調希望能夠這一個制度上回歸到在"},{"start":379.491,"end":397.868,"text":"議事規範大家能夠遵守的範圍。」我記得我昨天已經有那個三版的序 我有特別做這個期許非常謝謝秘書長所以在這邊我就是希望說我們透過這多次的我們這些議事的過程當中 比方說其實我覺得都是好事啦"},{"start":398.368,"end":399.989,"text":"議員高金素梅等23人擬具:「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條"},{"start":422.083,"end":450.473,"text":"案 主席當然可以宣布休息 這個我覺得是沒有問題的但主席宣布休息可不可以加一個開始跟結束時間啊 起勁時間告訴大家一下嘛 對不對不要突然三個小時消失不見 這樣子耗盡所有人時間在那邊等 也不太好我覺得加上 就是休息要加時間 我不知道民進黨覺得這樣建議會不會讓大家至少知道說 那休息我們家就是做很多我們自己該做的事情 因為每個委員有很多想要做的事情嘛"},{"start":450.993,"end":459.304,"text":"那你要休息三小時的話你就宣布休息三小時那三小時回來再開會啊我不知道定起氣時間會不會是一個比較好的做法呢?"},{"start":461.321,"end":485.22,"text":"我想在禮拜二在院會我們也有針對院長有做一個各位看到禮拜二的一個情況啦因為我們也把時間有稍微跟大會報告啦那因為現在的議事規則裡面是這個鑿定休息當然是一個彈性的一個當時為什麼立這個法是有一個彈性的規範的休息的"},{"start":487.584,"end":506.602,"text":"謝謝秘書長最後我就來看看為什麼跟大家講我覺得民進黨版的國會改革說真的我覺得是我看了以後有一種很大的感想就叫願總召變了心以前有一首歌叫願昌天變了心我是願總召變了心"},{"start":507.102,"end":534.304,"text":"因為我自己這段時間真的很努力的在看民進黨2016的版本跟2024年的版本我越看越覺得到底是以前的柯總召有問題還是現在的柯總召有問題我開始覺得越來越困惑我舉個例子為什麼剛剛特別強調我真的希望我民進黨的版本的2024的版本可以多開幾場公聽會大家一起來討論原因是什麼因為很多東西我真的真的是看不懂啦比方舉個例子 舉個例子就是說"},{"start":535.825,"end":557.12,"text":"我不太懂為什麼2016年的民進黨的版本要求這個提供這個相關行政機關提供議案的文件要提供原本可是民進黨現在就把這些原本全部刪掉就只能提供所謂參考文件要必要時才能夠提供原本這是我第一個不解的為什麼要自我閹割呢這閹割的原因是什麼呢"},{"start":559.341,"end":580.316,"text":"是不是需要開公聽會來跟大家社會大眾也許有高深的學問羅志強智力不足啦可能不知道不懂說今天為什麼民進黨版的這個版本是這個樣子那再比方說民進黨的現在的這個所謂的新的版本當中也包括說對人事同意權的行使過程當中本來2016年版本是要求是記名投票"},{"start":581.417,"end":597.114,"text":"當年24年奇怪怎麼變成不記名投票我也不太懂為什麼今天我們的立法院政府院長都進步到應該要用所謂的記名投票了為什麼今天我們的民進黨版的國會改革很奇怪突然就好像又不需要不需要就是公開透明的還有包括今天"},{"start":600.137,"end":607.16,"text":"民進黨2016年的版本是直接明文處罰說謊官員喔!他有好多的處罰太陽喔!處罰一萬到三十萬元對不對?我這個Mission知道嘛對不對?可是呢民進黨2024年版本非常神奇的是他特別把處罰說謊官員那一段把它刪掉欸!"},{"start":622.011,"end":633.031,"text":"也就是說所有的泰亞裡面說謊官員是不乏的這麼神奇的民進黨的2024的國會改革版本真的要拿出來多開公聽會讓大家比胖啦謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151723","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151723","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15d399a28fa87aa812e44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed0f21262aa761bdb5a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:24:57 - 09:36:22","影片長度":"00:11:25","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-17"},"duration":685,"end_time":"2024-04-25T09:36:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T09:24:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":201,"blocks":[["沈委員發惠：（9時25分）主席、各位同仁。非常高興今天終於可以順利地來就國會改革的相關法案能夠進入實質討論。過去有關於程序上面的紛紛擾擾，本席認為能夠有這個機會進入實質討論，我也是覺得非常欣慰。我想有關國會改革的這些法案，除了經過爭議程序中已經保留的這些相關的修正草案之外，今天我們另外還有10個案子，內容就是真正的針對國會改革、自律的一些相關規範，包括議事規則、國會幕僚的強化、國會資通安全、性別平等以及國會相關自律，甚至包括兩岸交流的資訊透明化等等，這些我們認為屬於國會改革、茲事體大的一些問題。","請主席先請周秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：沈委員好。"],["沈委員發惠：周秘書長早安。我剛剛有講今天所審查的國會改革相關議題是相當多，我相信在等一下的詢答過程中，每位委員會著重不同的重點來跟秘書長進行瞭解。秘書長因為基於作為國會的幕僚長角色，因此你在書面報告上對於這些立法委員所提出來的修正草案，大部分都不便評論，這個我們都可以理解，我就一些部分來跟秘書長討論。","首先，我就民進黨所提的國會改革法案中一件很重要的事情，就是有關強化國會資通安全相關規定，簡單講，我們的草案就是要求立法院必須增設資安長以及增設資通安全處，大概是這兩部分。請問秘書長，現在除了我們立法院組織法裡面目前沒有這樣的編制，但是事實上立法院在107年6月，就是7年前通過了資通安全管理法，對不對？資通安全管理法裡面有相關規範，它的主要規範對象就是所謂公務機關，而立法院當然是公務機關之一，是不是？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為資通安全法有第十一條的規定以後，立法院也由副秘書長來兼資安……"],["沈委員發惠：第十一條的資安長有……"],["周秘書長萬來：對，第十一條規定已經有設資安長，現在已經有了。"],["沈委員發惠：現在是由副秘書長兼任？"],["周秘書長萬來：對，細節上我在內部也……"],["沈委員發惠：所以簡單講，立法院也受資通安全管理法的規範，因為立法院是公務機關，這應該毫無疑義。"],["周秘書長萬來：沒錯。"],["沈委員發惠：第十一條的部分秘書長說明了，目前已經有設資通安全長，但是接下來第十二條有說「公務機關應每年向上級或監督機關提出資通安全維護計畫實施情形；無上級機關者，其資通安全維護計畫實施情形應送交主管機關」，請問我們立法院每年有沒有做？"],["周秘書長萬來：請副秘書長跟沈委員報告一下。"],["沈委員發惠：我們每年有沒有做資通安全管理法所規定的「資通安全維護計畫實施情形」？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：委員好。有，我們每年都有做。"],["沈委員發惠：每年都有做？做了之後是什麼？我們沒有上級機關，所以我們做完是怎樣？放在存查？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：我們會陳報。"],["沈委員發惠：陳報哪裡？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：陳報數發部。"],["沈委員發惠：就是剛剛所講的，無上級機關的情形要送主管機關，主管機關就是數發部。"],["張副秘書長裕榮：是。"],["沈委員發惠：我們每年都有做？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：有、有。"],["沈委員發惠：接下來，第十四條「公務機關為因應資通安全事件，應訂定通報及應變機制」，請問我們有沒有制訂第十四條相關的通報和應變機制？因為我查遍我們的公開資訊都找不到，其實都找不到，包括你剛剛所說的資通安全維護計畫，我查公開資訊也沒有查到，所以我現在要瞭解一下，第十四條規定的「應訂定通報及應變機制」，我們有訂定嗎？有沒有？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：報告委員，我們沒有訂定那個計畫，但是依照數發部訂定的相關規範，我們有訂定了18種相關的內規。"],["沈委員發惠：也就是說，資通安全法第十四條的部分我們還沒有做到，立法已經7年了，立法院自己本身還沒有做到，這部分我覺得法有明定，我們就應該要做，這就是為什麼民進黨黨團會提出應該要設立資通安全處的看法，因為我們的資安長是兼任，我們這些資通安全目前由資訊處同仁也是兼任，其實資訊處同仁在資通安全上並不是專門在針對資通安全的部分處理，整個立法院的資訊系統都是它的責任，這個責任也過於重大。","另外，針對第十五條「公務機關所屬人員對於機關之資通安全維護績效優良者，應予獎勵」，請問我們有沒有？這7年來，我舉例教育部就有「教育部人員資通安全事項獎懲基準」，他們有訂定這個獎懲基準，請問我們立法院針對資通安全法第十五條……"],["張副秘書長裕榮：報告委員，這個部分我們還沒訂定獎懲基準。"],["沈委員發惠：所以這7年來也沒有針對資安人員的獎勵，都沒有嘛？你沒有基準就沒有獎勵，對不對？這7年都沒有。秘書長，這部分我們立法院，事實上這是依法明定的，我剛剛所講的都是依法明定的，就是我們的資通安全法從第十一條到第十五條，除了第十一條設了一個資安長之外，我們其他統統沒有做到。"],["周秘書長萬來：是這樣，從組織架構來說明，大概在院之間，因為其他各院也沒有特別針對資通安全設一個處，就是說一個單位，我想人事總處那邊也有稍微提供各院目前都沒有，都是由資訊處來兼，至於剛才沈委員所提這些部分，我們可以……"],["沈委員發惠：我們兼沒有關係，我們要做到法定該做的事情……"],["周秘書長萬來：沒錯，我們跟各院一樣沒有設資通安全處，我們可以在資訊處把它強化，這個沒有問題，依照規定。"],["沈委員發惠：不要說強化，先不要說到修法之後的強化，光現在依法該做的事情，你們就還沒做，7年了也都還沒做。秘書長，我們立法院自己訂定的資通安全法，拜託！我們該做的事情都要做，好不好？我們立法院自己有訂一個「立法院資通安全管理要點」，事實上，我們立法院有嘛，對不對？有訂這個「立法院資通安全管理要點」，裡面有關資通安全組織提到，為落實本院資通安全管理，由機關首長指派副首長或適當人員兼任資安長，並成立資通安全稽核小組，請問我們現在有沒有資通安全稽核小組？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：報告委員，現在有。"],["沈委員發惠：有稽核小組？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：有稽核小組。"],["沈委員發惠：它是臨時編制嗎？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：對，它是一個臨時編制。"],["沈委員發惠：資通安全工作小組呢？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：目前也有。"],["沈委員發惠：也是臨時編制，對不對？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：對，沒有錯。"],["沈委員發惠：個人資料管理小組呢？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：也有。"],["沈委員發惠：立法院資通安全管理要點第六點有提到要實施資通安全教育訓練及宣導；第二十點提到本要點應該要定期宣導，請問我們有做什麼宣導？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：我們每年8月會有統一的教育訓練。"],["沈委員發惠：第十六點有提到我們應該要訂定營運持續緊急應變演練及復原計畫，我們有做演練嗎？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：有，每年2次。"],["沈委員發惠：我們的演練就是演練立法院的資訊系統，有包括到各委員的研究室嗎？"],["張副秘書長裕榮：都是應用系統跟設備，因為研究室……"],["沈委員發惠：設備是要測試，但是資通安全是要演練，我們有演練嗎？立法院國會辦公室，我沒有看到任何一個委員的辦公室有做過資通安全演練。"],["張副秘書長裕榮：主要是系統對外的部分，委員的PC就沒有特別做演練。"],["沈委員發惠：秘書長，我所提的這些其實都是法定該做的事情，但事實上我們都沒有做到，為什麼？我個人認為是因為我們的資通安全沒有專責機構，就是因為沒有專責機構，大家都是兼任的，剛剛所講的稽核小組、工作小組、個人資料這些小組都是臨時性編制，所以民進黨才會提出這樣的修正草案，希望我們在組織法上面能夠明定設立資訊安全、資通安全的專責機構，畢竟立法院是國家重要機構，它的資通安全絕對不容忽視，以上。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝沈委員，謝謝秘書長、副秘書長。","接下來有請羅委員智強發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-17","speakers":["鍾佳濱","范雲","羅智強","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林思銘","吳思瑤","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員高金素梅等\n23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條\n之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案；三、繼續審查\n( 一) 民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」\n案、( 二) 委員賴瑞隆等16 人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草\n案」案；四、(一)繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審\n查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」\n案、( 四 ) 繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kaaw 等19 人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(五)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)審查\n委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133401_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.450968750000001,"end":14.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.83034375,"end":19.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.74096875,"end":20.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.41159375,"end":32.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.56596875,"end":38.033468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.775968750000004,"end":43.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.024093750000006,"end":46.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.84221875,"end":51.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.377218750000004,"end":54.149093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.790343750000005,"end":74.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.49596875,"end":76.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.57596875,"end":82.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.51596875,"end":87.10596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.49409375,"end":92.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.31596875000001,"end":94.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":98.00721875,"end":98.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.86784375,"end":100.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.65659375000001,"end":106.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.69784375,"end":110.61284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.15284375,"end":143.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.07596875,"end":117.10971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.10971875000001,"end":117.14346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.14346875000001,"end":117.32909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.02909375,"end":120.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.23159375,"end":120.28221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.40096875,"end":148.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.69971875000002,"end":150.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.62346875,"end":152.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.51346875000002,"end":153.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.74096875,"end":158.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.36909375000002,"end":159.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.61346875,"end":163.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.39784375000002,"end":165.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.62534375,"end":171.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.05034375000002,"end":180.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.31909375,"end":184.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.72784375,"end":186.11159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.29721875,"end":204.28596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.99034375000002,"end":215.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.84534375,"end":222.34221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.86221875,"end":215.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.77346875,"end":221.11034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.13971875000001,"end":222.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.30846875,"end":222.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.34221875,"end":226.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.88596875000002,"end":237.25971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.52159375000002,"end":235.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.60596875000002,"end":235.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.69034375,"end":235.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.72409375,"end":235.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.96034375000002,"end":236.75346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.74909375000001,"end":243.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.11096875,"end":248.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.95409375000003,"end":259.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.99034375,"end":263.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.73659375,"end":265.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.11596875000004,"end":266.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.80346875000004,"end":270.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.67221875,"end":272.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.02659375,"end":271.07721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.78159375,"end":274.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.49846875000003,"end":276.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.35909375,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.64971875000003,"end":280.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.20221875000004,"end":281.75909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.67846875000004,"end":286.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.32784375,"end":287.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.41221875,"end":287.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.46284375,"end":291.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.51346875,"end":288.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.08284375,"end":289.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.69846875,"end":301.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.33971875000003,"end":292.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.55846875000003,"end":296.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.06846875,"end":300.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.22846875000005,"end":309.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.42971875,"end":312.80909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.96096875,"end":315.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.93096875000003,"end":319.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.45346875,"end":324.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.06034375,"end":327.32159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.16534375000003,"end":338.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.20534375,"end":352.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.72284375000004,"end":360.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.73534375,"end":352.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.78471875,"end":367.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.26034375,"end":372.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.88409375000003,"end":374.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.19596875,"end":384.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.37596875,"end":397.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.65221875000003,"end":400.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.81221875,"end":402.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.41534375000003,"end":409.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.39721875000004,"end":411.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.18159375000005,"end":414.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.78471875,"end":422.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.23909375000005,"end":424.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.26409375000003,"end":428.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.55909375000005,"end":431.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.49096875000004,"end":434.56221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.11909375000005,"end":439.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.12659375000004,"end":441.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.24034375,"end":443.03346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.63659375000003,"end":453.42846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.64784375000005,"end":458.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.46534375000005,"end":490.16534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.11096875000004,"end":491.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.02596875,"end":503.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.56846875,"end":503.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.59784375000004,"end":503.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.61471875,"end":503.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.81721875000005,"end":507.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.32721875000004,"end":510.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.41096875000005,"end":512.9128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.0053437500001,"end":521.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.70471875,"end":523.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.19784375,"end":525.8559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":526.75034375,"end":533.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.4453437500001,"end":537.1284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":538.1072187500001,"end":544.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":545.5322187500001,"end":551.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.1428437500001,"end":553.1597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.1597187500001,"end":554.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.32409375,"end":555.5053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":554.35784375,"end":555.5222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.5222187500001,"end":556.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":556.8047187500001,"end":558.7622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.43721875,"end":560.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":560.53409375,"end":561.8503437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.35659375,"end":567.0984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.63471875,"end":567.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.0984687499999,"end":567.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.13221875,"end":567.2165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.2165937500001,"end":567.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.38534375,"end":567.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.40221875,"end":567.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.0434687500001,"end":570.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.8615937500001,"end":570.9797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.9965937500001,"end":571.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":572.3803437500001,"end":572.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.15221875,"end":575.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.1772187500001,"end":583.6865937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.59784375,"end":589.6772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.57534375,"end":599.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":599.9709687500001,"end":603.2109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.8859687500001,"end":605.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.53534375,"end":615.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.2647187499999,"end":610.5347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.5890937500001,"end":613.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.2847187500001,"end":618.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.2253437500001,"end":624.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":622.3640937499999,"end":623.4272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.25409375,"end":624.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.2709687500001,"end":624.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.33846875,"end":624.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.54096875,"end":624.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.67596875,"end":624.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":624.96284375,"end":627.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.61659375,"end":626.7178437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.86971875,"end":626.9878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":628.5403437500001,"end":634.5647187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.77971875,"end":636.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":636.9440937500001,"end":640.8928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.12471875,"end":644.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.20909375,"end":643.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.0990937500001,"end":644.7234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.74034375,"end":646.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":647.3728437500001,"end":661.6828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":650.6128437500001,"end":651.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.03721875,"end":663.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.9609687500001,"end":665.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.1884687500001,"end":670.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":670.9978437500001,"end":672.5165937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":672.73596875,"end":673.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":673.73159375,"end":676.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":676.4990937500002,"end":677.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":678.4228437500001,"end":678.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":679.46909375,"end":683.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.9240937500001,"end":683.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":683.9409687500001,"end":684.6159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":685.1728437500001,"end":685.51034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.922,"end":13.602,"text":"主席各位同仁"},{"start":14.858,"end":43.076,"text":"我想我也非常高興說今天終於可以順利的來就我們這個國會改革的相關法案能夠進入實質的討論那過去有關於程序上面的這些紛紛擾擾本席這也是能夠有這個機會覺得進入這個實質的討論我也是覺得非常的欣慰那我想這個有關國會改革的這些法案除了"},{"start":44.09,"end":71.024,"text":"我們已經有在經過正義程序中已經保留的這些相關的修正草案之外今天我們另外還有十個案子,這十個案子這個內容就是真正的針對國會改革自律的一些相關規範,包括議事規則包括我們國會幕僚的強化,包括國會的自通安全、性別平等"},{"start":71.744,"end":92.049,"text":"以及國會的相關自律甚至包括兩岸交流的資訊透明化等等這些我們認為屬於國會改革姿勢體大的一些問題我現在是不是先請主席,我們先請周秘書長來,請周秘書長"},{"start":99.145,"end":116.597,"text":"周秘書長早安我剛有講我們今天所審查的國會改革的相關議題是相當多我相信在等一下詢問過程中每位委員會有不同著重不同的重點跟秘書長"},{"start":118.718,"end":140.203,"text":"來進行了解因為秘書長因為基於做國會的幕僚長的角色因此你在書面報告上面有對於這些修正立法委員所提出來修正草案大部分都不便評論這個我們都可以理解那我就一些部分來跟秘書長來討論首先我就這個"},{"start":143.544,"end":171.081,"text":"我們民進黨所提的國會改革法案中一件很重要的事情就是有關國會強化國會資通安全相關的這個規定這個我們簡單講我們就是增列了這個我們的草案就是增列要求這個立法院必須設增設資安長以及增設資通安全處大概是這兩個部分"},{"start":173.086,"end":179.924,"text":"我想請問這個議員長齁我看到現在現在在我們除除了我們的這個這個立法院組織法"},{"start":181.48,"end":204.102,"text":"裡面目前沒有這樣的編制但是事實上我們在107年107年6月7年前就通過了這個資通安全管理法資通安全管理法裡面有一些相關的規範那這些相關規範它的主要規範對象就是所謂公務機關那立法院當然是公務機關之一吧是不是"},{"start":206.612,"end":218.222,"text":"因為本來資通安全法第11條都規定以後,立法院也有由副民進黨來兼資安長。所以簡單講我們立法院也受這個資通安全管理法的規範嗎?"},{"start":232.654,"end":247.627,"text":"因為他是公務機關嘛,立法院是公務機關,這應該毫無意義吧?沒有毫無意義啦齁那第十一條的部分有秘書長說明了說我們目前已經有設這個自通安全長啦齁但是第十二條呢,接下來第十二條齁,他有說公務機關每年"},{"start":249.245,"end":274.799,"text":"應每年向上級機關或監督機關提出資通安全維護計畫實施情形,無上級機關者其資通安全維護計畫實施情形應送交主管機關。」請問我們立法院有沒有做?每年?我們每年有沒有做這個資通安全管理法所規定的?"},{"start":275.56,"end":283.068,"text":"委員好這個資通安全維護計畫實施情形我們每年都有做每年都有做啊做了之後我們是什麼我們沒有上級機關嗎"},{"start":284.701,"end":286.262,"text":"第14條公務機關因應資通安全事件應訂定通報及應變機制"},{"start":310.835,"end":333.879,"text":"請問我們有沒有制定第14條這個相關的通報跟應變機制因為我查遍了我們的我們的這個公開資訊都找不到啦其實都找不到所以包括你剛剛所說的這個資通安全維護計畫我查這個公開資訊也沒有查到啦所以我現在要了解一下第14條呢第14條的規定的這個這個應訂定通報及應變機制我們有訂定嗎"},{"start":342.25,"end":359.965,"text":"有沒有?我們沒有訂定那個計畫,但是依照速發部的這個訂定的相關規範,我們有訂定了18種這個相關的內規。也就是說之風安全法第14條的部分我們還沒有做到,立法已經7年了,我們立法院自己本身還沒有做到,這個部分我覺得"},{"start":360.916,"end":383.296,"text":"我覺得法永明定我們就應該要做了這就是我們為什麼民進黨黨團會提出說應該要設立資通安全處的一個看法因為你們現在都是這個我們的這個資安長是兼任那我們這些資通安全由資訊目前由資訊處的同仁在也是兼任"},{"start":384.957,"end":401.751,"text":"其實資訊處的同仁他們在資通安全上面他們並不是專門在針對資通安全的部分處理他對整個立法院的所有資訊系統都是他的責任這責任很過於重大另外針對第15條公務機關所屬人員對於機關資通安全維護績效優良者應予獎勵請問我們有沒有"},{"start":413.4,"end":442.611,"text":"這七年來我們例如啦我舉例像教育部啦教育部他就有教育部人員資通安全事項獎懲基準他們有訂立這個獎懲基準請問我們立法院針對資通安全法第15條有沒有做到我們還沒訂立獎懲的這樣一個基準所以這七年來也沒有針對這些所謂資通這個資安人員的獎勵都沒有嗎你沒有基準就沒有獎勵嘛對不對這七年都沒有嗎秘書長這部分齁"},{"start":444.79,"end":458.75,"text":"這部分我再舉就是說我們立法院的事實上這個是依法明定的我剛所講的都是依法明定的就是我們的自通安全法從第11條到第15條除了第11條設一個資安長之外我們其他通通沒有做到"},{"start":460.963,"end":485.703,"text":"是這樣,由於從組織架構來說明,因為大概院之間,大概因為其他各院也沒有特別針對資通安全設一個處,就是一個單位。那我想雷氏總是當面也有稍微提供是各院都目前都沒有,都由資訊處來監。至於剛才沈委員所提的這些部分,"},{"start":486.623,"end":509.871,"text":"我們今天沒有關係啊,我們要做到法定該做的事情要做啊。我們會,如果是說我們沒有跟各院一樣,沒有設置中央安全處,在資訊處我們可以把他強化,但是這個沒有問題啊。先不要說強化,先不要說到我們修法之後的強化,我光現在依法該做的事情我們就還沒做啊。七年了也都還沒做啊。"},{"start":515.049,"end":544.209,"text":"民進黨這個部分是不是我們自己立法院定定的資通安全法我們自己立法院拜託我們該做的事情都要做好不好我們這個我們立法我們自己立法院有定一個立法院資通安全管理要點事實上我們立法院有吧有定這個資通安全管理要點裡面有關資通安全組織提到說未落實本院資通安全管理由機關首長、指派副首長或適當人員兼任治安長"},{"start":545.818,"end":572.457,"text":"並成立資通安全集合小組。」請問我們現在有沒有資通安全集合小組?現在有。有集合小組?有集合小組。它是臨時編制嗎?對,它是一個臨時編制。是一個臨時性的編制。資通安全工作小組呢?也有,目前也有。也有,也是臨時編制?對對對。對不對?這個個人資料管理小組?也有。也有齁?對,都有。那這個"},{"start":574.198,"end":600.863,"text":"我們這個立法院的資通安全管理要點吼,裡面有提到第六點,第六點有提到要實施資通安全教育訓練及宣導。第二十點提到說本要點應該要定期宣導,請問我們有做什麼宣導?我們每年吼,八月會有統一的一個教育訓練。第十六點吼,有提到說我們應該要訂定營運持續緊急應變演練。"},{"start":604.763,"end":615.509,"text":"及復原計劃。」我們有做演練嗎?有有有,每年兩次。每年兩次,我們演練就是演練我們立法院的資訊系統,有包括到各委員的研究室嗎?"},{"start":619.584,"end":642.761,"text":"都是應用系統跟設備因為研究室的話設備是要測試啦但是這個資通安全是要演練啦我們有演練嗎我這個立法院國會辦公室我沒有看到哪一個任何一個委員的辦公室有做過資通安全的演練啊主要是系統對外的這個部分啦這部分齁這部分齁這個秘書長"},{"start":647.418,"end":664.27,"text":"我所提的這些其實都是已經是法定該做的事情但事實上我們都沒有做到為什麼我個人認為就是因為我們自通安全沒有專責機構了就是因為沒有專責機構大家都是兼任了剛剛所講的飢餓小組工作小組個人資料這些小組都是臨時性編制"},{"start":666.246,"end":683.564,"text":"所以民進黨才會提出這樣子的修正草案希望說我們在組織法上面能夠明定設立資訊安全、自通安全的這個專責機構因為畢竟立法院是國家重要的一個機構它的自通安全絕對不容忽視以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151722","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151722","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce159499dc7b14bc2605c97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed0de7eaf727ba7c6f95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"09:31:05 - 09:40:16","影片長度":"00:09:11","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":551,"end_time":"2024-04-25T09:40:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T09:31:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":277,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（9時31分）謝謝主席，我們是不是請許部長？"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：王委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長好。部長，你在勞動部已經幾年了？掌管勞動部。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，6年快2個月。"],["王委員育敏：也算是在任非常久的部長，我不太知道為什麼這一次在閣員的異動當中，你也是女性的閣員，現在其實缺乏女性的閣員，基本上你留任其實是讓資深的部長可以繼續帶領勞動部，但是這一次換了一個其實完全沒有背景的，原來的副秘書長何佩珊來擔任勞動部部長，你覺得這樣的人事更換會讓勞動部帶領得更好嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為這個人事權當然在準閣揆，但是我要說明一下，其實我跟佩珊不算陌生，我擔任勞動部長以後，其實我們在公務上有很多的討論跟……"],["王委員育敏：所以你認為他很適任，會做得比你好，會嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我對他有信心啦！因為我覺得他對勞動……"],["王委員育敏：你對他有信心？"],["許部長銘春：我覺得他對勞動政策不陌生，而且我在跟他討論過程中……"],["王委員育敏：之前在一例一休修法的時候，他其實是搭配當時的行政院院長賴清德，是勞基法修惡，讓勞工團體非常反彈，這個你知道嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，那段我是沒有參與，我不曉得。"],["王委員育敏：你沒有參與嘛！所以本席讓你瞭解，光是這一段他跟勞工團體的溝通，我想要花更多時間，大家現在在質疑的是他將來在勞工政策的立場，是會站在勞動部的立場、站在勞工的立場還是站在資方的立場？"],["許部長銘春：我想報告委員，因為他既然身為勞動部部長，他就是要為勞工站出立場啦！"],["王委員育敏：我希望你說你跟他交情好，你要好好地告訴他。接下來本席要問的是有關於花蓮觀光業受創非常嚴重，這個問題看起來是越來越嚴重，目前看到前陣子的報導，就是有一些旅館是直接歇業了，而且大量解僱，目前大概有將近300個人已經是無班可上，但不只這樣喔！最近看起來，因為不是0403的地震，0423再震，所以旅館業說他們現在的住宿率只剩下5%，然後東大門夜市根本沒有人去，這樣的一個慘況，失業人數可能還要再攀升，無薪假人數可能也會增加，目前為止勞動部有掌握到花蓮強震之後，他們現在勞工在當地的情況嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為當地有我們的就業服務中心……"],["王委員育敏：好，你們掌握到是什麼情況？"],["許部長銘春：我們現在……"],["王委員育敏：人數有沒有比本席現在講的這個更多？"],["許部長銘春：現在……"],["王委員育敏：無薪假人數有多少？"],["許部長銘春：無薪假沒有增加。"],["蔡署長孟良：現在只有1家3人。"],["許部長銘春：對，就是減班休息的只有1家，然後3個人，通報減班休息。"],["王委員育敏：解僱呢？"],["許部長銘春：之前解僱40家202人，大量解僱2家123人，就是委員您講的這個部分。"],["王委員育敏：目前為止，你們掌握到的是300，這是什麼時候的數據？"],["許部長銘春：昨天。"],["王委員育敏：昨天最新的數據？"],["許部長銘春：對，我們每天都會更新。"],["王委員育敏：好，那面對花蓮這樣的情況，之前本席就說你們應該要有一個專案來協助花蓮，因為它短期其實我看是復甦不了了，所以這一些廣大的勞工，靠這一些旅遊業賴以生計的，其實不只旅遊業啦！因為觀光沒有，可能連做這一些伴手禮的、各方面的產業衝擊是大的，它需要一個比較長期的復甦過程，你們有組成專案要持續來協助他們嗎？"],["許部長銘春：跟委員報告，我們因為這個大地震，我們目前……就委員您質詢以後，我們有啟動7大措施來協助我們花蓮受災的這些事業單位跟勞工。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望你們強化。另外一個本席要關注的是災區的工人的安全，因為現在為了災後的重建，所以有一些其實是要搶工，甚至我們看到這個公文，內政部還說應該避免不必要的鑑定手續及試驗，它是為了搶救的效率，但是另外一方面，本席擔心的就是為了搶快的過程當中，勞工的風險有沒有去適度地提醒，像今天早上又連三震，花蓮那個地方如果是要做災後搶救工作相關的工人，其實安全真的要特別注意，要不然可能會受到二次傷害。"],["許部長銘春：是，謝謝委員的提醒，其實我們在0403那一天，除了發布臨工措施，另外就是工安的部分，當天也同時提醒這些事業單位要注意，縱使倒塌以後要復工怎麼樣，都要預先瞭解風險評估之後才可以入場，所以這個部分我們會強化。"],["王委員育敏：好，這一點本席要求，因為現在花蓮有幾棟其實也是危樓，或者是家裡面有一些其實是危險的，有些搶修的工人可能為了搶快，當然希望儘快復原，但是我覺得安全還是要幫他顧好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["王委員育敏：這個是非常重要的。另外一點，有關於勞檢人力的部分，現在中央有一些勞檢人力的部分，在員額的分配上面看起來是不太均的，在六都裡面其實是不太均的。另外一個是你們現在有一些業務其實是開始下放給地方，擴大授權，以臺中市來講，我知道從去年開始，你們就開始有一些勞檢的範圍授權給臺中市政府，但是同時你們勞檢的員額其實並沒有上升，這樣會變成是業務量加大，但是人員沒有增加，這個部分你們要怎麼樣去處理？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實員額的部分，人力我們主要是補助，他們也可以擴編，這個部分我請署長說明。"],["王委員育敏：我知道，但中央的補助很重要，地方財政其實都很辛苦。"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，這個關鍵就是我們補助地方六都的部分，我們補助聘用的勞動檢查人力，其實地方政府，臺北市、高雄市的經驗，他們會做組織修編，爭取必要的員額，向考試院爭取員額修編，我想這是大家共同努力啦！我們中央補助人力跟經費，讓地方的檢查機構擴增約聘人力，其實我們在努力了。"],["王委員育敏：好，一個是員額，一個是現在其實他們的流動率是高的，就是因為業務量大，大家每一項出現什麼工安狀況就是說要增加勞檢次數，勞檢員的福利跟薪資待遇如果沒有同時去做一些修正，現在就本席知道的，他們其實有的員額還不見得補得足，就是現有的員額不見得補得足，那就是一個惡性循環，就是說福利待遇不好，案件量又大，然後又補不足，所以基本你是不是應該要去改善他們一些相關的福利薪資待遇，再做一個通盤的檢討？"],["許部長銘春：可以，報告委員，其實這個部分我都有在請業務單位做一些盤點，事實上去年我就先幫他們爭取風險工作的加給，這個部分有3,000、5,000，這個已經通過了，4月1號正式上路，就是從事高風險檢查工作，每個月可以多領5,000塊或3,000塊。"],["王委員育敏：好，這一塊我希望你要持續，這些勞檢員是你們的分身，他們都前進到第一線去查看實際執行的情況是不是有違規，但是如果連勞檢員都過勞，主要的福利都沒有被照顧好，我覺得將來實質的勞檢能量是會下降的，所以這一塊我希望中央可以去看到它現在流動率高的原因，必要的這些福利條件應該要給予改善，這樣子才可以讓我們的勞檢員不要流動率那麼高，然後還有再增加，大家會願意進來，這樣整個勞檢量能才會維持在一定的量，要不然如果連六都都產生困難，其他縣市我覺得會更辛苦，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["王委員育敏：希望這個部分勞動部要做專案的處理，你好好地去檢視這一些勞檢員的勞動條件、狀況跟薪資福利待遇，還有六都這些人力的配比，該補的我覺得中央不要吝嗇，這都是在幫你做工作啦！其實地方也在分擔中央的工作，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["王委員育敏：中央、地方一起，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝王育敏委員發言。","接下來請陳菁徽委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.283468750000001,"end":8.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.383468750000002,"end":12.974093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.51409375,"end":14.222843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.35784375,"end":17.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.59784375,"end":18.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.20096875,"end":21.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.58034375,"end":21.69846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.78284375,"end":21.816593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.816593750000003,"end":21.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.96846875,"end":33.713468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.017218750000005,"end":39.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.041593750000004,"end":46.470968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.94346875,"end":51.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.63034375,"end":65.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.98284375,"end":67.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.96971875,"end":75.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.16346875,"end":71.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.93909375,"end":86.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.32534375,"end":88.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.65846875000001,"end":92.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.64971875,"end":106.36034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.41096875000001,"end":114.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":113.44784375,"end":116.95784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.17721875000001,"end":117.53159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.22346875000001,"end":128.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.10784375,"end":132.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.97221875,"end":137.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.15721875,"end":152.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.07471875000002,"end":152.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.22659375,"end":169.25346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.24346875,"end":152.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.72596875000002,"end":175.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.15971875000002,"end":177.48846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.80909375000002,"end":178.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.10409375,"end":182.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.85909375,"end":184.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.51659375,"end":192.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.24221875,"end":187.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":190.93784375,"end":191.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.42284375,"end":202.12596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.92471875,"end":194.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.92034375,"end":195.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.16909375,"end":197.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.90284375000002,"end":198.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.32034375,"end":200.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.29471875000002,"end":208.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.77096875,"end":207.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.24721875,"end":212.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.36909375000002,"end":217.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":214.96784375000001,"end":215.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.14909375000002,"end":216.18284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.55409375000002,"end":221.11034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.41034375,"end":224.06346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.77659375000002,"end":223.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.06346875000003,"end":252.00846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.31159375000001,"end":230.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.73721875,"end":233.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.02409375000002,"end":233.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.70659375000002,"end":239.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.31784375,"end":243.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.86534375000002,"end":250.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.60784375000003,"end":250.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.00846875000002,"end":266.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.74034375,"end":282.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.14284375,"end":308.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.00096875,"end":300.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.60346875000005,"end":306.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.86471875,"end":314.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.94471875,"end":308.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.32784375,"end":329.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":318.17534375,"end":318.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.92909375,"end":328.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.75159375000004,"end":386.31659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.03846875000005,"end":330.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.63971875000004,"end":343.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.67346875000004,"end":343.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.72409375,"end":343.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.77221875000004,"end":392.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.37909375000004,"end":391.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.88096875,"end":392.89784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.89784375000005,"end":392.99909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.99909375000004,"end":397.25159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.11721875,"end":394.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.57221875000005,"end":421.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":421.07909375,"end":456.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.48284375000003,"end":471.72096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":471.75471875000005,"end":482.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.85971875,"end":474.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.92721875,"end":475.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.49659375000005,"end":476.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.68221875,"end":476.78346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.78346875000005,"end":476.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":483.12846875,"end":549.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":486.77346875,"end":487.09409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.78784375000004,"end":502.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.02409375,"end":503.04096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.32659375000003,"end":511.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.40096875,"end":521.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.6909687500001,"end":530.1928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.99409375,"end":533.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.1272187500001,"end":547.8103437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.312,"end":8.395,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我們是不是請許部長。請許部長。部長好。部長,你在勞動部已經幾年了,掌管勞動部。"},{"start":19.386,"end":43.525,"text":"包括為6年快兩個月也算是在任非常久的部長那我不太知道為什麼這一次在閣員的異動當中你也是女性的閣員現在其實缺乏女性的閣員基本上你留任其實是讓資深的部長可以繼續帶領勞動部但是這一次換了一個其實完全沒有背景的原來的副秘書長何佩珊"},{"start":44.849,"end":67.018,"text":"來擔任勞動部部長。那你覺得這樣的一個人事的更換會讓勞動部帶領得更好嗎?因為這個人事權當然在久隔潰啦齁。但是我要說明一下其實我跟佩珊不算陌生齁。我擔任勞動部長以後其實我們在公務上有很多的...所以你認為她很適任?會做得比你好?會嗎?"},{"start":68.058,"end":86.007,"text":"我對他有信心,因為我覺得他對勞動這個不陌生而且我在跟他討論過程中那之前在這個一例一休修法的時候他其實是搭配當時的行政院院長賴清德是勞基法修二讓勞工團體非常反彈"},{"start":87.369,"end":105.714,"text":"那這個你知道嗎?那段我是沒有參與,我不曉得你沒有參與嗎?所以本席讓你瞭解光是這一段他要跟勞工團體的溝通我想要花更多時間大家現在在質疑的是他將來的在勞工政策的立場是會站在勞動部的立場、站在勞工的立場還是站在資方的立場?"},{"start":106.674,"end":108.455,"text":"接下來本期要問的是有關於這個花蓮觀光業受創非常嚴重"},{"start":125.584,"end":142.072,"text":"這個問題看起來是越來越嚴重目前看到的前陣子的報導呢就是有一些這個旅館他是直接歇業了而且大量解雇目前大概有將近300個人已經是無班可上但不只這樣最近看起來"},{"start":143.133,"end":168.753,"text":"這個因為不是04、03的地震、04、23再震了所以變成是這個旅館業他們說他們現在住宿率只剩下5%然後東大門夜市根本沒有人去那這樣的一個慘況失業人數可能還要再攀升無薪假人數可能也會增加目前為止勞動部有掌握到花蓮強震之後他們現在勞工在當地的一個情況嗎"},{"start":170.261,"end":184.353,"text":"報告委員,因為我們當地有我們的就業服務中心,所以我們...掌握到是什麼情況?目前那個我們現在...人數有沒有比本席現在講的這個更多?"},{"start":187.14,"end":207.537,"text":"現在無薪假人數有多少?無薪假?無薪假沒有增加?無薪假沒有?現在只有一家三人,通報一家三人。無薪假就是減班休息?對,這邊只有一家,然後三個人,通報減班休息。那解僱呢?解僱喔,之前解僱40家。"},{"start":209.498,"end":223.804,"text":"兩百零二人大量解雇兩家一百二十三就是委員您講的這個部分目前為止你們掌握到的是三百對這是什麼時候的數據昨天昨天最先的數據對好我們每天都是會有更新啊好"},{"start":224.324,"end":250.364,"text":"那面對花蓮這樣的一個情況之前本席就說你們應該要有一個專案來協助花蓮因為它短期其實我看是復甦不了了那所以這一些廣大的勞工靠這一些旅遊業賴以生計的其實不只旅遊業啦因為觀光沒有你可能連做這一些辦手禮的各方面的產業衝擊是大的那它需要一個比較長期的復甦的過程你們有組成專案要持續來協助他們嗎對"},{"start":252.765,"end":280.551,"text":"委員我們其實有跟委員報告我們因為這個大地震我們目前就委員您執行以後我們有啟動七大的措施來協助我們花蓮受災的這些事業單位跟勞工好那我希望你們強化另外一個本席要關注的是災區的這一些工人的安全因為現在為了災後的重建所以有一些其實是要搶工那甚至我們看到這個公文內政部他還說這個"},{"start":289.13,"end":306.541,"text":"但是另外一方面本席擔心的就是為了搶快的過程當中勞工的風險就是有沒有去適度的提醒像今天早上又連山震就是花蓮那個地方如果你是要做這個災後搶救工作相關的工人其實那個的安全真的要特別注意要不然可能"},{"start":307.001,"end":307.942,"text":"會受到二次的傷害"},{"start":330.235,"end":357.826,"text":"對,這一點本席要求因為現在花蓮有幾棟其實也是圍樓或是家裡面它有一些其實是危險的那有些搶修的工人可能為了搶快大家也希望盡快復原但是我覺得安全還是要幫他顧好不好這個是非常重要的另外一點這有關於勞檢人力的部分現在中央有一些在勞檢人力的部分你在員額的分配上面看起來是不太均的在六都裡面"},{"start":358.386,"end":385.431,"text":"其實是不太均的那另外一個是你們現在有一些業務其實是開始去下放給地方擴大授權那以台中市來講這個我知道從去年開始你們就開始有一些勞檢的範圍就授權給台中市政府但是同時你們勞檢的原額其實並沒有上升那這樣會變成是業務量加大但是人員沒有增加那這個部分你們要怎麼樣去處理"},{"start":387.009,"end":397.035,"text":"報告委員,其實那個緣口部這些人力我們主要是補助。是啊。當然也可以擴編啊。我知道,但重要的補助很重要。地方財政其實都很辛苦啊。"},{"start":397.591,"end":398.772,"text":"好,一個是緣額,一個是現在其實他們的流動率是高的"},{"start":425.913,"end":440.233,"text":"就是因為業務量大大家每一下出現什麼公安狀況就是說要增加勞檢次數那勞檢員的福利跟薪資待遇如果沒有同時去做一些修正其實現在就本席知道的他們其實有的員額還不見得補得足啊"},{"start":441.755,"end":463.631,"text":"就現有的原來不見得補得足。那就是一個惡性循環。就是說福利待遇不好、案件量又大、然後又補不足。所以基本你是不是應該要去改善他們的一些相關的福利薪資待遇,再做一個通盤的檢討?可以。包括我們其實這個問題我都有在請業務單位做一些盤點。事實上去年我就先幫他們爭取那個風險工作的加急。"},{"start":468.354,"end":493.7,"text":"是這個部分有就是五千、兩千這個已經三千、五千對不起三千、五千這個已經通過了四月一號正式上路你從事高風險的這些檢查工作每個月你可以多領五千塊或三千塊這一塊我希望你要持續這些勞檢員是你們的分身他們都前進到第一線然後去查看實際執行的情況是不是有違規但是如果連勞檢員都過勞他的"},{"start":496.281,"end":518.634,"text":"主要的這些福利都沒有被照顧好那我覺得你將來這一些實質的勞檢的能量是會下降的所以這一塊我希望中央可以去看到他現在流動率高的原因他必要的這些福利條件應該要給予改善那這樣子才可以讓我們的勞檢員就是不要流動力那麼高然後還有再增加大家會願意進來那這樣你整個的勞檢的量能"},{"start":521.275,"end":521.295,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"151721","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151721","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15fc0d92f74a034e8220df1bb4ac2af973c68e374cd8c4bed03f3c00194d6c03235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:21:31 - 09:34:26","影片長度":"00:12:55","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":775,"end_time":"2024-04-25T09:34:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T09:21:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":100,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時21分）謝謝主席，先請公視胡董事長。"],["主席：有請胡董事長。"],["胡董事長元輝：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：董事長好。2006年7月1號由公視跟華視組成公廣集團，你那時候是公視的總經理，而我們新任的文化部長小野是華視的總經理，你們一起出席了揭牌儀式，我還記得非常的清楚，那時候小野還滿高興的說，我們希望華視跟公視的結合，就好像是三十五歲的老娘嫁給小八歲的小新郎一樣，希望老蚌生珠可以生出好的結果，這段對話你應該很清楚。結果沒想到九個月之後，小野的總經理夢碎，然後他就黯然離去，而且他那時候還特別提到華視已經是四不像，完全是不歡而散。我不曉得十七、八年之後，你們重逢之後，你對於小野部長整頓公廣集團有沒有信心？"],["胡董事長元輝：謝謝委員，過去的確有機會跟未來的這位文化部長有過一些共事的經驗，我相信他對於公共媒體的現況及未來發展都很瞭解，我有信心他應該會來支持公共媒體的發展。"],["柯委員志恩：所以十八年這是一個很好的緣分，但是我們還是要就事論事，因為你從111年8月到任華視，說實在的，十八年來進入這樣一個機構當中，華視已經虧損了40億，你111年到任的時候我們不用去算，但112年應該是你完整的一整年，我可不可以瞭解一下112年為什麼比111年更擴大虧損了1億，總共虧損了2.4億，到底是什麼樣的問題？"],["胡董事長元輝：我用最簡單的部分跟委員報告，第一個部分就是因為華視有了一個新聞頻道，針對新聞頻道普及率的增加，在NCC當年有承諾人事費必須增加。第二個是我們覺得華視在最近這幾年來投資內容的部分不足，所以在……"],["柯委員志恩：所以你已經很清楚這個緣故了，但是對我個人來說的話，其實我都還沒有列進去有關於華視的房租挹注，這是其他臺沒有的，我想臺視應該非常慶幸他們到目前為止並沒有進入公廣集團，而且他們現在已經轉虧為盈了，可是看看華視，過去在我那個年代是一個戲劇王國，沒想到十八年來華視虧損了40億，如果你把房租放進去的話，搞不好你的虧損都要到五億多了。不好意思，董事長，我還是希望你在近期之內能夠針對擴大虧損這個部分，提出一個說明給本席好不好？我覺得這是一個非常重要的問題。"],["胡董事長元輝：沒有問題。"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝，接下來請王次長。"],["主席：請王次長。"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝胡董事長，你可以回座了。針對其他部分，只要有涉及的就請大家一起來回應好了。次長，我相信你今天是加碼6億給公視，我覺得這還是有年代的差別，洪孟楷委員說他們家小孩子是看波力，我記得我家小孩那時候看的是公視引進的天線寶寶，我還幫它當過代言，這就表示世代的差距，但不管怎麼樣，水果奶奶都還在，只是現在過了這麼久，他已經變成阿祖了，可是問題在於公視還是只有水果奶奶當作是一個最大的指標。我們來看看兒少的節目到底有沒有辦法來製作，你給我的資料當中是有6億的分配，我不曉得部長是不是有充分掌握資源的分配，你看針對這6億，只有短短幾個字的說明，我必須要瞭解，因為你們目前為止不是新設的一個頻道，只是一種轉型，等於是換了一個招牌，而內容的部分，公視節目幾乎都是外包的，那你這個人事費4,300萬到底是怎麼來的？你們不都是外包的嗎？你都有現有的人力了啊，為什麼？然後你們行銷要一億多！針對這些經費，只有短短幾個字，請問誰能夠告訴我正確的部分到底是如何？而且你看基本營運費要2,000萬，這個用途到底在哪裡？有沒有辦法請誰來說明一下？"],["王次長時思：我想詳細的部分還是請公視來說明，不過還是跟委員報告，就是在整體的產製跟行銷上，仍然需要新增的人力，公視並沒有……"],["柯委員志恩：4,300萬耶！"],["王次長時思：我是說在整體的行銷宣傳上，它其實並不是……"],["柯委員志恩：那你先告訴我4,300萬的人事費是怎麼花的？你本來就有人了，你都是外包啊！"],["王次長時思：包括節目製作的本身啦，包括外包……"],["柯委員志恩：但你是把它放在人事費用裡面，節目製作怎麼可以放在人事費用裡面啊？"],["王次長時思：沒問題，我想先請公視就這個部分的人事費用……"],["柯委員志恩：等一下再一併回答，如果無法在限定時間之內回答，請都給我書面資料或到我辦公室來解釋，以文化部來說的話，文化部對於公視就好像是自己的親生兒子，對於華視好像養女一樣，你們的對待真的是完全不公平的，像華視就是有附負擔捐贈，只要2.3億你們都不給。"],["王次長時思：但是華視也有補助，我們還是有補助製作節目的經費。"],["柯委員志恩：但是到目前為止，針對整個華視的部分，他們的附負擔捐贈只要2.3億，你們為什麼都不願意去給？這些等一下都請你一併來回答……"],["王次長時思：但是我們對華視的補助應該已經有超過5億了。"],["柯委員志恩：你等一下一併來回答，這些經費不能只有針對幾個給我說明，我等一下會給兒少平臺一個機會來說明，然後我還是要瞭解到底目前兒少的TA在哪裡，你剛剛告訴我有好幾個不同的階段，但是……"],["王次長時思：不同年齡層。"],["柯委員志恩：次長，你知道以目前來說的話，東森幼幼臺平常的市占率是多少嗎？"],["王次長時思：其實文策院這邊有做過調查的報告，我想數字的部分，可能要稍等我調一下。"],["柯委員志恩：我馬上告訴你，50%以上，假日大概是45%，你們做過這個部分啊！"],["王次長時思：是，有做過這一類的瞭解，其實在整個自製的節目上……"],["柯委員志恩：我就說這6億砸下去，我肯定要有這個平臺，可是錢要花在刀口上，而且你剛剛有特別提到，它的TA是從學齡前的兩歲，還有到國中，還有到十八歲以下，你們有不同的平臺。"],["王次長時思：到十八歲，對。"],["柯委員志恩：你覺得青少年跟國中生都會去看你們這些電視嗎？"],["王次長時思：其實要看節目的類型，譬如以青少年來說，像親職棚內的座談，或者是實境，或者是解謎遊戲，其實他們是滿喜歡的。"],["柯委員志恩：他們滿喜歡？好，那……"],["王次長時思：其實會有年齡層的差異。"],["柯委員志恩：當然有差別，你可不可以給我舉幾個你所瞭解的頻道，所謂知己知彼，你可不可以告訴我適合青少年的優質頻道現在有哪一些？我們來比一下。"],["王次長時思：其實在公視裡面有滿多節目適合青少年……"],["柯委員志恩：不要說公視，我要知道其他外面的，我剛才說過知己知彼，你知道其他在外面有哪一些頻道是青少年喜歡的、很優質的？"],["王次長時思：我想有一些像音樂節目，青少年應該也是會非常喜歡。"],["柯委員志恩：音樂節目？Spotify就可以啦！"],["王次長時思：我說的是節目的製作啦！"],["柯委員志恩：還有什麼？"],["王次長時思：像大嘻哈，我想大家應該都很歡迎。"],["柯委員志恩：還有呢？我現在只能告訴你，要瞭解外面的市場到哪裡，我們TA的設定到底有沒有它的必要性。我告訴你，這些全部都是，你所設定不同階層的TA所知道的，然後我也看到你們特別提到給學齡前兒童的多元性不足，你們認為因為多元性不足，你們希望能夠累積屬於臺灣兒少的本土故事，我也同意有本土故事，問題是你們有沒有辦法做出能夠吸引大家的，否則為什麼每個人都要到Disney去朝聖？就是……"],["王次長時思：所以這是一個起點，我想兒少頻道是一個起點。"],["柯委員志恩：孩子根本不管你是什麼本土、國外的，只要你能夠吸引他就可以，問題是以過去公視所提供的績效，到底有沒有辦法說服大家？你的平臺、你的閱看率到底有沒有辦法？到底你的九大節目的開發有沒有辦法真真正正讓我們的影視人才續留？我們來看一個非常嚴重的問題，在這6億當中，你們現在不斷的有很多的決標，你們都是外包，我都看得出來，目前來說有很多決標，這是我稍微條列出來的，目前決標的公司有哪一些是有口碑、有擅長兒童節目的？有哪一些可以講得出來嗎？你們要不要來救一下次長？有哪一些公司可以……"],["王次長時思：我會請公視詳細說明，但還是要跟委員說明，這是一個起點，兒少頻道是從今年、現在才要開始，所以也希望委員可以給公視一個機會。"],["柯委員志恩：我們可以給予支持，但我們還是要看過去公視這樣子的績效，我查了一下在這些決標、得標的公司裡面，有些資本額很小才100萬，有些是1,000萬；有些是沒有什麼得獎作品，也沒有做過什麼兒少節目；有些成立不久，有些甚至連標案都很少。我告訴你有一家去年5月只有得標570萬的採購案，還有這一次徵案2月的時候決標了910萬，它只有做公視節目2個，而且這家公司的營業除了電影製作、廣告、提供場地之外，還有仲介服務！我就不曉得這樣的部分到底是如何。"],["王次長時思：委員，我想這樣更證明其實在民間產製量能的不足，這也是為什麼需要公視投入的原因。"],["柯委員志恩：產量不足，但是這樣的公司有沒有辦法產製出什麼？"],["王次長時思：所以包括孵育跟合製……"],["柯委員志恩：次長，為什麼我要特別這樣去講，原因是你們的KPI我沒有看到，我沒有看到你們的KPI到底是如何，就像我剛剛說的，從過去到現在公視或許非常有心，可是製作節目的普及度、普遍度，從你們給我的資料看來，我需要畫上一個問號，我沒有懷疑你們製作的決心，只是你們的能耐、capacity到底有沒有辦法達到這個地方……"],["王次長時思：應該是整體市場的量能的確有不足……"],["柯委員志恩：我隨便舉個例子來說好了，目前公視長期要被檢討，像2021年本來文化部是用10億委託中央社做TaiwanPlus，對不對？本來預訂有100萬的下載數，結果只有5.5萬，所以你們就把它拿給……連駐臺的外媒都認為少得很可憐，所以你們現在把它變成由公視主導，本來是大外宣，現在變大內宣，然後呢，不好意思，次長……"],["王次長時思：TaiwanPlus現在已經在包括北美、新加坡、馬來西亞的落地其實都有一定的成績。"],["柯委員志恩：你來看看你給我的資料，次長，你相不相信？你們當初還請僑委會等等之類的。你給我的資料是說九成都是國際觀眾，有美國、菲律賓。然後你來看看你給我的觀看次數，8月的時候增加了200萬，我用一個月、單月去看，3月增加了500萬，好了，到了2023年，TaiwanPlus的觀看次數在這個月當中竟然有一千多萬，你相信嗎？"],["王次長時思：基本上要看新聞事件及節目來決定它點閱的流量……"],["柯委員志恩：一千多萬，對不起，次長，你看看TaiwanPlus從成立到現在三年多，Taiwan Plus光是在YouTube的總觀看次數只有300萬次，你現在告訴我一個月可以到一千多萬，這個流量到底怎麼樣計算的？一個月一千多萬次，次長，你相信嗎？我把這些全部加起來，我甚至調出12個月份的東西全部加起來，才22.9萬，但是你每個月的觀看次數到1,000萬，這個次數也未免灌水得太嚴重了吧！"],["王次長時思：委員，那不可能是灌水，我想那應該是計算基礎的問題。"],["柯委員志恩：好，不會有問題，我們也很知道後臺的計算到底怎麼樣。回到剛剛那個次數來說，請你很清楚地告訴我，一個月當中是用這樣的方法，你們的官方在最重要的YouTube頻道只有三百多萬人次，全部加起來一個月裡面可以一千多萬人次，新聞點……"],["王次長時思：但它是看次數，算那個流量……"],["柯委員志恩：好，沒關係，我也是用次數，我也都用次數啊！"],["王次長時思：而且它是有新聞事件，像那一年因為蔡總統的出訪，那一個月就非常地暴增……"],["柯委員志恩：暴增也不會到一千多萬，好不好？最多的人次你上去點看看，你們的人員現在一個、一個上去點看看，不管怎麼樣，請到我辦公室……"],["王次長時思：我會給委員……"],["柯委員志恩：或用任何方法給我解釋這些流量是怎麼出來的，我會嚴格地看。"],["王次長時思：我會給委員資料來補充。"],["柯委員志恩：因為我們從後臺來看是完全不太可能。我們要面對問題，雖然你們花了非常多的錢，但是我也不希望給我這樣的次數去看待……"],["王次長時思：那個次數是據實統計，我們再給委員做補充的資料……"],["柯委員志恩：據實統計，告訴我是怎麼樣算出來，每一筆告訴我是怎麼算出來的，還有包括你那個6億是怎麼樣分配，包括人事分配、經營分配，我們都要看得很清楚……"],["王次長時思：好，我們再給委員資料。"],["柯委員志恩：我們不希望一個這麼好的頻道，都還是被當作實驗的性質。公視不斷地叫窮，但是我們要問，你的資源分配、實際的效應、KPI有沒有達到我們當初的期望，這是最重要的，所以我要求必須把這個流量、你們的經費很詳細地告訴我到底是怎麼一回事，可以嗎？"],["王次長時思：我會給委員資料，沒有問題。"],["柯委員志恩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩召委，次長請回。","接下來請萬美玲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","葉元之","陳培瑜","何欣純","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","范雲","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","林月琴","陳冠廷","羅智強"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫─ 公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.03034375,"end":6.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.101593750000001,"end":7.337843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.7428437500000005,"end":9.008468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.57721875,"end":15.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.15096875,"end":64.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.33721875,"end":71.34471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.68221875,"end":74.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.63534375,"end":81.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.52034375000001,"end":111.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.26659375000001,"end":132.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.60096875000002,"end":175.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.37971875000002,"end":172.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.37471875,"end":177.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.24346875,"end":197.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.73846875,"end":235.82534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.34971875000002,"end":201.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.98534375000003,"end":211.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.17096875000001,"end":211.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.29784375000003,"end":250.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.22784375,"end":271.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.63971875000004,"end":263.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.91284375000004,"end":270.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.88721875000005,"end":337.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.35909375,"end":277.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.21471875000003,"end":283.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.59409375,"end":285.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.36784375,"end":301.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.18159375000005,"end":305.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.83096875,"end":308.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.17596875000004,"end":316.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.07409375000003,"end":318.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.71346875,"end":331.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.20596875,"end":397.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.14534375,"end":349.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.11096875000004,"end":353.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.41284375000004,"end":365.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.93159375000005,"end":366.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.14471875000004,"end":379.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.22034375000004,"end":381.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.97721875,"end":404.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.92971875,"end":407.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.96721875000003,"end":411.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.18596875000003,"end":480.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.48909375000005,"end":445.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.42846875000004,"end":482.30159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.43659375000004,"end":484.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.52909375,"end":499.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.71659375,"end":531.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":532.23471875,"end":594.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.5634687500001,"end":535.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.40659375,"end":540.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.9878437500001,"end":546.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.1059687500001,"end":546.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.60784375,"end":548.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":594.3515937500001,"end":607.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.64909375,"end":635.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.0615937499999,"end":614.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.06659375,"end":639.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.53846875,"end":652.2665937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.07784375,"end":646.6472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.65471875,"end":681.7978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.32096875,"end":772.9228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.7765937500001,"end":683.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.8647187500001,"end":686.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.8559687500001,"end":688.0078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":703.7859687499999,"end":704.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":705.20346875,"end":706.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.01721875,"end":709.2703437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":722.92221875,"end":723.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":724.39034375,"end":725.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.9890937499999,"end":728.8115937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":739.57784375,"end":742.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":750.09096875,"end":751.2722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":770.9484687500001,"end":771.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":774.3740937500002,"end":775.3359687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.079,"end":4.279,"text":"胡董事長"},{"start":14.622,"end":37.345,"text":"委員好 董事長好 我想2006年7月1號是由公視跟華視組成公廣集團你那時候是公視的總經理 那我們新任的文化部長小野是華視的總經理你們一起出席的這個所謂的揭牌儀式我還記得非常的清楚 那時候小野還蠻高興的說我們希望華視跟公視的結合就好像是35歲的老娘嫁給小八歲的小新郎一樣"},{"start":37.765,"end":63.812,"text":"希望老棒生出可以生出好的結果對吧這段對話你應該很清楚就沒想到九個月之後呢我們的小野這個總經理夢碎然後他就淦然離去而且他那時候還特別提到的華視已經是四不像了然後呢完全也就是不歡而散我不曉得十七八年之後你們再重新的重逢之後你對於這個小野這個部長整頓公廣集團你有沒有信心"},{"start":66.274,"end":81.37,"text":"謝謝委員我想過去的確有機會跟這個未來的文化部長有過一些共識的一些經驗那我相信他對公共媒體的現況跟未來發展都很了解我應該有信心他會來支持公共媒體"},{"start":81.63,"end":85.232,"text":"所以18年這是一個很好的緣份但是我們還是要就事論事因為你從118年8月到到任華氏說實在的18年來進入這樣一個機構當中華氏已經虧損了40億那你118年到任的時候我們不用去算但是112年應該是你完整的一整年那我可不可以了解一下112為什麼比111更虧損擴大虧損的1億"},{"start":109.226,"end":132.274,"text":"總共虧損2.4億到底是什麼樣的一個問題用最簡單的部分跟委員報告第一個部分就是因為這個華視有了一個新聞頻道那這個新聞頻道的普及率的增加在NCC當年有承諾人事費必須增加第二個是我們覺得整個過去的華視在最近這幾年來投資內容的部分不足所以"},{"start":132.614,"end":137.376,"text":"所以你已經很清楚這個緣故了但是對我個人來說的話華氏我說實在也非常多的我都還沒有列進去有關於這個華氏的這個房租的挹注這是其他台沒有的我想台是應該非常的慶幸他們目前為止他們並沒有進入公廣集團而且他們現在已經轉虧為盈了可是看看華氏過去在我那個年代是一個戲劇王國沒想到18年華氏虧損40億如果你把這個房租放進去的話"},{"start":161.184,"end":161.344,"text":"王次長"},{"start":179.621,"end":196.572,"text":"謝謝胡董事長可以回去然後我不知道其他部分只要有部分就請大家一起來做一個回應好了那次長我相信你今天是加碼6億給公視我覺得這還是有年代的一個差別那個洪孟凱說他們家小孩子看玻璃玻璃我記得我家小孩看的時候那時候是公視引進的天線寶寶"},{"start":197.873,"end":220.124,"text":"我還幫助他當作代言所以這就表示這個世代的差距但不管怎麼樣水果奶奶都還在只是現在過這麼久他已經被阿祖了可是問題公視還是只有水果奶奶當作是一個最大的一個指標所以我們來看看這個兒少的節目到底有沒有辦法來做到你給我的資料當中是有6億的分配我不曉得部長你是不是有充分的掌握他的這個資源的一個分配你看6億當中"},{"start":221.445,"end":228.73,"text":"我必須要了解短短的幾個字我必須要了解因為你們目前為止不是新設的一個頻道只是一種轉型而且等於換了一個招牌那你內容公視的節目幾乎都是外包的那你這個人事費4300萬到底怎麼來的不是你們都是外包的嗎那你都有現有的人力啦為什麼然後你們行銷要1億多請問這些經費短短幾個字誰能夠告訴我正確的部分到底是如何而且你看基本營運費要2000萬這個用途到底在哪裡"},{"start":252.311,"end":271.061,"text":"有沒有辦法誰來說明一下我想詳細的部分還是請公視來做說明不過還是跟委員做報告就是在整體的產製跟行銷上它仍然是需要新增的人力公視並沒有 4300萬欸我是說在整體的行銷宣傳上那你先告訴我4300萬人事費是怎麼花的你本來就有人啊 你們都是外包啊"},{"start":271.906,"end":298.721,"text":"他包括節目製作的本身啦並不是包括外包那你是把它放在人事費用裡面的節目製作怎麼可以放在人事費用裡面啊沒問題我想先請公視就這個部分等他一併的回答我先不能沒有在時間之內回答請都給我書面資料去或到我辦公室來解釋因為我覺得這裡面我真的覺得公視這個文化部來說的話文化部對於公視就好像是自己的親生兒子對於華視好像養女一樣"},{"start":299.201,"end":299.661,"text":"但是我們補助應該已經超過5億了"},{"start":317.746,"end":337.174,"text":"對,你等一下一併來做回答,等一下這些的經費不能只有給我幾個,我等一下會請給兒少平台裡面有一個機會來做,然後我還是要了解到底目前的兒少的TA在哪裡,你剛剛有告訴我好幾個不同的一個階段,但是次長你會知道目前來說的話,東森幼幼台平常的市佔率多少嗎?"},{"start":338.517,"end":345.182,"text":"其實文策院這邊有做過調查的報告我想數字的部分可能要稍等我調一下不會啊我馬上告訴你啊50%以上啊加熱大約45%啊你們做過這個部分啊是有做過這一類的了解所以我就說這6億的錢砸下去我肯定要有這個平台可是錢要花在刀口上而且你剛剛有特別提到了他的TA是兩歲學年期還有到國中還有到這個18歲以下你們有不同的平台對"},{"start":366.457,"end":388.393,"text":"你覺得像青少年跟國中生都會去看你們這些電視嗎?其實要看節目的類型,譬如說以青少年來說,像輕職的棚內的座談,或者是實境,或者是解謎遊戲,其實他們是蠻喜歡的,所以其實會有年齡層的差異。那當然有差別,你可不可以給我舉幾個你所了解的知子與知彼,你可以告訴我適合青少年的優質頻道現在有哪一些?"},{"start":389.153,"end":402.736,"text":"我們來比一下,其實在公視裡面蠻多節目還是適合青少年：不要說公視,其他外面,我就知幾遍,你知道其他在外面有哪一些的頻道是青少年喜歡的,很優質的?我想有一些像音樂節目,青少年應該也是會非常喜歡的音樂節目?"},{"start":402.736,"end":405.497,"text":"啊,Spotify那種就可以啦!所以說,還有什麼?還有呢?"},{"start":412.25,"end":441.81,"text":"我現在只能告訴你要了解外面的市場到哪裡我們的TA的設定到有沒有它的必要性告訴你這些全部都是這些你的你所設定不同階層的TA所知道的然後呢我也看到你們特別提到裡面你們希望給學齡前兒童的多元性不足你們認為因為多元性不足你們希望能夠累積屬於台灣兒少的本土故事我也同意有本土故事啊問題是你們呢有沒有辦法做出大家吸引的否則為什麼每個人都要去迪士尼去朝聖"},{"start":442.39,"end":446.652,"text":"就是孩子不管你是什麼本土國外的他只要你能夠讓他吸引他就可以問題是以過去公視所提供的一個績效到底有沒有辦法說服你的平台你的月看率到底有沒有辦法你的九大節目的開發有沒有辦法真的讓我們的影視人才蓄流好我們來看一個非常嚴重的一個問題喔6億當中你們現在不斷地有很多的爵就算你們都是外包我都看得出來"},{"start":469.722,"end":473.006,"text":"目前有哪些有口碑有擅長兒童節目的有哪些可以講得出來嗎?你們要不要救一下我們的次長?有哪些的公司可以?"},{"start":485.06,"end":497.598,"text":"我想為請公視詳細說明但是還是要跟委員說明這是一個起點兒少頻道是從今年現在才要開始所以希望委員可以給我們可以給予支持但是我們還是以過去公視的這樣子的一個績效我們還是要來看你看嘛"},{"start":499.941,"end":516.689,"text":"我查一下你們這些絕標得標的公司裡面有些資本很小才100萬有些是1000萬有些是沒有什麼得獎作品也沒有做過什麼兒少節目而且有些是成立不久有些甚至連標案都很少我告訴你有一家去年他只有得標什麼去年5月的570萬採購案還有這一次徵案"},{"start":520.891,"end":527.276,"text":"二月的時候絕報了910萬他只有做公視節目兩個而且呢這家公司的營業除了電影製作之外廣告提供場地還有仲介服務我就不曉得這樣子的部分到底是如何我想這樣更證明其實在民間的產製的量能的不足這也是為什麼需要公視討論的原因產量不足但是這樣的一個公司有沒有辦法產製出什麼部分因為為什麼次長我要特別去這樣去講"},{"start":548.971,"end":569.681,"text":"原因是因為你們的KPI我沒有看到我沒有看到你們的KPI到底是如何就像我剛剛說的到從過去到現在公視或許非常有心可是你們製作節目的普及度普遍度和你所給我的資料我是要畫上一個問號我沒有懷疑說你們製作的一個決心只是你的能耐你們capacity到底有沒有辦法達到這個"},{"start":570.782,"end":570.942,"text":"拜訪問候委員﹗"},{"start":599.679,"end":599.799,"text":"拜訪問候委員"},{"start":617.27,"end":639.441,"text":"你們當時還請喬委會等等之類的你給我的資料是說九成都是國際觀眾有美國菲律賓然後你來看看你給我的觀看次數八月時候是增加了兩百萬這一個月我用單月來去看喔三月增加了五百萬好了到了2023對不起回到前面那一個台灣plus的觀看次數這一個月當中竟然有一千多萬"},{"start":640.595,"end":646.879,"text":"你相信嗎?一千多萬,對不起,次長你看看台灣Plus從成立到現在三年多它的總觀看次數只有三百萬次你現在可以告訴我說你到了一個月可以到一千多萬你到底怎麼樣來看看這個流量到底怎麼樣來計算的"},{"start":666.612,"end":677.583,"text":"一個月一千多萬次,次長你相信嗎?我把你全部加起來,我甚至調出那12月份的東西全部把它加起來,包括這個怎麼,全部加到這邊裡面才22.9萬,你每個月的關稅到一千萬,你這個次數也未免……"},{"start":682.227,"end":682.447,"text":"關水的太嚴重了吧?"},{"start":682.447,"end":687.049,"text":"那不可能是關水,我想那應該是計算基礎的問題。 那好,不會有問題,我們也很知道後台的一個計算到底怎麼樣,回到剛剛前面那個次序來說,請你很清楚的告訴我,一個月當中是用這樣的方法,你的官方最重要的YouTube頻道只有300多萬人次,你全部加起來一個月裡面可以1000多萬人次。 但它是含次數啊,所以它的流量。 好,沒關係,我也是用次數啊,我也都用次數啊。"},{"start":708.798,"end":708.918,"text":"我會嚴格的看"},{"start":727.978,"end":728.458,"text":"主持人李慧琼"},{"start":756.34,"end":775.299,"text":"﹗"}]}},{"id":"151720","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151720","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15ec2b0f0a300ee576c97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed0e00a675d9541ec565ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:20:16 - 09:30:59","影片長度":"00:10:43","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":643,"end_time":"2024-04-25T09:30:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T09:20:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":234,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（9時20分）主席好，有請勞動部部長跟勞動發展署蔡署長。"],["主席：許部長、蔡署長。"],["許部長銘春：林委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長早。根據媒體消息，下週要召開印度移工的諮詢會議，討論相關行業、名額及方式，因為前幾天重症雇主團體有來向本席陳情，表示我們的對象，也就是聘僱人力穩定來源，他們有一點擔心。請問社福類的移工，特別是家庭看護工，會不會列入你們這次的項目當中？"],["許部長銘春：我們開放的業別會找相關部會一起討論，因為這些業別各有其目的事業主管機關，像這些看護人員就是屬於衛福部，他會不會納入，到時候我們就是會找他們來討論，包括第二次的諮詢會，我們有邀請相關部會針對開放的業別、開放的人數及引進的方式，大家都會來討論。"],["林委員月琴：希望就是考量他們的需求，因為他們事實上是專門去照顧一些重症的家庭，可能要去考量這部分。","部長知道有這樣的公司嗎？本來按照身權法，事實上是希望保障身權者的就業權益，在第三十八條跟第四十三條就有規定身障者的聘僱、僱用跟行政怠金，這項規定本意是希望促進身障者就業，而且同時推動事業單位能夠去改善其工作環境來聘僱身障者，這種代聘代管的模式，不知道部長有看到這樣的一個公司行號，它變成是管理公司，也就是這樣的公司幫事業單位去聘僱身障者，然後租場地讓這些身障者工作，可是相對的會變成什麼呢？會變成像主管人只要看不順眼就把人趕走了；另外一個，有時候這些人事實上不是在事業單位工作，反而規避掉很多的問題。比如說，事業單位要改善整個環境變成不需要改善，身障者單獨在這裡工作只領最低的基本薪資，所有的福利都沒有，所以這個公司像是仲介，身障者幫它做事，出錢的卻是另外一家公司、是事業單位，而有沒有詐領身障者就業基金，不確定。","再來，身障者會再次跟社會隔絕，本來是要去融合，今天教育單位的普特融合都達到96%，可是你竟然把身障者區隔掉，我不知道勞動部有沒有掌握這樣的狀況，因為它大剌剌的在就業市場當中丟出來，讓大家來使用這樣的管理公司，它是代管，所有人都在這邊上班、幫事業單位工作，可是實際上有時候連無障礙廁所都沒有，我不曉得部長知不知道這種狀況？"],["許部長銘春：如果像您剛剛所提的情形，這樣是違反身權法的規範，完全不符合所要求的這些規定，這部分具體的情形……"],["林委員月琴：所以你怎麼去認定有沒有違法？甚至有沒有依法去輔導或是處罰的行政處分？"],["許部長銘春：因為這個是個案的情形，我是不是可以請業務單位跟委員這邊來瞭解，我們進一步來瞭解，看應該做怎麼樣的處理。"],["林委員月琴：好，是不是一個禮拜後讓我瞭解這整個狀況？"],["許部長銘春：委員，您那邊有沒有資訊提供給我們？"],["林委員月琴：好。"],["許部長銘春：我會請同仁去跟委員辦公室來瞭解，我們來進行後續處理。"],["林委員月琴：所以為什麼就業服務法要大修，連這樣的狀況都可以規避掉身權法跟就業服務的一些要件。"],["許部長銘春：基本上法律是沒有問題，而是有心者的守法問題，我覺得這不可取啦！"],["林委員月琴：是。就業服務法也是30年了，本來你們自己也特別去提到，因為就業服務法30年了，在前年勞動部發行的台灣勞工季刊72期也特別提到要去做這幾項的改革，可是我們從過去的就服法看到什麼？外國人聘僱跟管理的比重大於就業服務，本來就服法是要促進國人的就業，可是從第三十四條到第八十三條這麼高的比重，幾乎都在講外國人聘僱跟管理比較多，比重占到三分之二，到底我們的就服法是要促進國人就業，尤其我很關心青年就業，幾乎都沒有觸及到，反而是大力去促成外國人，這不應該拉出來做專法去討論嗎？怎麼會是合併在這邊？而且占了三分之二強的比重，這個就服法到底是去滿足外國人聘僱，還是事實上要促進國人就業？連相關的辦法，基本上也是三分之二，反而對於國內勞工的就業服務談得比較少。","連你今天的報告也是這樣，今天的報告從比重上看起來也非常偏頗，幾乎大概僅兩頁談到國內的就業未來怎麼提振，可是有3頁都在敘明外國的聘僱要怎麼去做，我覺得在比重失衡的狀況下，關於國人的就業、青年的或者是中高齡的就業，當然我知道部長很努力在中高齡的就業上的確有些起色，可是青年就業呢？事實上青年是未來國家的本，但這部分好像做得很少。以這樣子來看，我也想問的是，部長知不知道地方政府在人的聘僱率上，會不會因為你的比重有落差，而在人的聘用也是有落差的？就人員的配置上有沒有影響？"],["許部長銘春：應該是不會，配置上不會。"],["林委員月琴：你現在講不會，可能也不是很有把握，是不是可以也讓我知道一下，各地方政府的聘僱到底有沒有落差？"],["許部長銘春：我們可以提供資料給委員，委員有這樣的質疑，我是回答你不會啦，當然你有質疑，我們必須把數據提供給委員瞭解。"],["林委員月琴：是不是會提供出來？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["林委員月琴：否則，如果你今天不是讓地方政府促進國人的就業，反而是大量著重在外國的聘僱，我覺得不太適宜。就業服務法歷年修正的次數都是單修一些規定，我剛剛已經提過在這樣的修正裡面，幾乎都是以外國人聘僱為主，我不知道部長你覺得合理嗎？即整個比重上都是以外國人聘僱跟管理為主，在這幾次的修正都是如此。"],["許部長銘春：在外國人聘僱上，可能有一些認為是時空背景或是需要進行一些滾動性修正。"],["林委員月琴：可是大概都是以外國人聘僱為主，怎麼不是我們自己國內就業的提振呢？"],["許部長銘春：國內就業的提振，我們很多是用計畫、方案去推動，因為法是個大原則，你要更落實……"],["林委員月琴：我就碰到過，政府常跟我講要依法行事，如果法裡面沒有訂的話，通常不會依法行事。"],["許部長銘春：不會，它都會有一些授權……"],["林委員月琴：反而會造成國內的就業呈現比較不穩定狀態，你們大量思考的部分，事實上是外國聘僱的管理模式。"],["許部長銘春：其實我們很多法會授權一些子法訂定計畫或相關的方案去推動，在執行面，我們都是訂定計畫去推動，因為用計畫比較容易做滾動性的修正。"],["林委員月琴：可是部長，我們看……"],["許部長銘春：基本上都是在法的大架構下去推動，都是依法行政。"],["林委員月琴：你去看原來就業服務法規定的就業服務本業，做好了嗎？我認為沒有，為什麼？因為民間就業服務機構等同於移工聘僱所專屬的代辦單位，對國人求職的服務轉向數位的人力銀行，像111、104等這樣的方式，就業服務難道只有移工聘僱或是網路上的人力銀行？當下我們的公立就業服務中心這些服務機構，所提供的職業訓練、就業諮詢跟職業心理測驗和受委任招募的這些資源，使用率都非常非常地低，有沒有去檢討這些單位？甚至連職業推薦這項業務效果都不如預期，私立的更不用講了，所以在這樣的狀況底下，我不知道你們還有辦法、有能力去做嗎？像我剛剛講的青年就業促進、避免職業傷害，跟協助障礙者、中高齡及高齡者就業的職業輔具使用。"],["許部長銘春：這個都是我們努力在推動的。"],["林委員月琴：目前我真的很少看到針對青年這一塊，這些越來越加重的需求，我覺得勞動部應該要去因應啦！"],["許部長銘春：這個部分，我跟委員報告，我們這幾年推動的，縱使在疫情期間，青年的失業率都降到歷來最低，我們真的在推動上有一些成果出來。"],["林委員月琴：是。部長，因為時間的關係，再請你提供相關的資料，連今天報告我都看不出來，因為你的比重上真的就很失衡了。","最後，大概就是希望你在這一塊是不是可以進行處理，像反就業歧視跟保護求職安全機制失能的狀態，所以該修法了，這個已經30年的法是不是可以大修？是不是要把那部分脫鉤，也就是外國聘僱去設立專法，這一部就業服務法還是以國人的聘僱為主，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員的發言。","接下來請王育敏委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.14346875,"end":14.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.974093750000002,"end":13.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.661593750000002,"end":17.074718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.22659375,"end":18.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.99846875,"end":19.605968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.51721875,"end":21.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.42409375,"end":31.519718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.992218750000006,"end":51.415343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.432218750000004,"end":51.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.60096875,"end":54.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.689093750000005,"end":55.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.92096875,"end":56.359718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.359718750000006,"end":56.376593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.376593750000005,"end":56.393468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.06846875,"end":57.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.08534375,"end":60.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.98346875,"end":87.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.337843750000005,"end":61.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.36284375,"end":63.447218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.03846875,"end":87.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.35909375,"end":87.49409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.49409375,"end":186.11159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.53346875000003,"end":187.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.36034375,"end":211.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.18471875,"end":204.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.09909375,"end":212.67284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.11159375000003,"end":225.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.68346875,"end":228.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.68721875000003,"end":238.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.94784375,"end":241.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.61784375000002,"end":248.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.54471875000002,"end":251.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.02971875000003,"end":255.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.37096875,"end":262.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.20096875,"end":269.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.11971875,"end":276.62909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.43096875000003,"end":286.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.09159375,"end":296.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.44846875,"end":309.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.63659375000003,"end":344.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.29784375,"end":348.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.87096875000003,"end":389.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.53971875,"end":390.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.61534375,"end":392.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.77971875000003,"end":393.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.70784375000005,"end":397.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.36971875,"end":403.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.15784375000004,"end":403.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.15346875,"end":409.77284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.77346875,"end":409.73909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":409.77284375000005,"end":419.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.72971875,"end":419.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.02034375000005,"end":424.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.97721875,"end":445.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.99409375000005,"end":426.25971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.88534375,"end":453.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.22159375,"end":455.80784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.34784375000004,"end":461.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.78159375,"end":463.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.53221875,"end":466.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.72596875000005,"end":467.92409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.34596875000005,"end":474.21846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.21846875000006,"end":474.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.97784375000003,"end":475.02846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.02846875000006,"end":479.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.50034375,"end":479.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.54659375000006,"end":489.35534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.80721875,"end":505.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.21534375000005,"end":496.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":505.97721875,"end":507.25971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":507.64784375000005,"end":524.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.90346875,"end":521.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.84346875,"end":587.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.42471875,"end":588.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.0065937500001,"end":588.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.36096875,"end":596.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":588.8672187500001,"end":589.1540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":591.6684687500001,"end":593.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.6428437500001,"end":594.3178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.8490937500001,"end":596.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":596.95034375,"end":607.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.15596875,"end":641.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":609.43784375,"end":609.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.9853437500001,"end":644.06534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.502,"end":17.919,"text":"主席好,有請我們的勞動部部長跟我們的勞動發展署的蔡署長請蔡署長"},{"start":19.025,"end":41.412,"text":"林委好。部長早。根據媒體的消息是下週要召開印度移工的諮詢會議,要討論行業名額跟方式。是不是想問的,因為前幾天重症雇主團體來向本席陳情表示對我們的對象"},{"start":42.412,"end":59.982,"text":"也就是我們的拼顧人力穩定來源他們有一點擔心就是請問社福類的移工特別是家庭看護工那會不會列入你們這次的項目當中開放的業別報告委員我們開放的業別會早"},{"start":60.998,"end":61.839,"text":"我們有邀請我們相關的部會．"},{"start":88.059,"end":97.942,"text":"希望就是把他們的需求去做考量因為他們事實上是一個專門要去照顧重症的一些家庭可能要去考量"},{"start":98.703,"end":127.868,"text":"那接下來想部長知道這樣子的一個公式嗎就是本來按照生權法裏邊事實上希望保障生權者的一個就業權益在38條跟43條就有規定生長者的一個聘僱僱用跟行政貸金這項規定本意是希望促進生長者就業而且推動同時推動事業單位能夠去改善他的工作環境來聘供"},{"start":128.348,"end":128.568,"text":"會變成像主管"},{"start":156.883,"end":157.604,"text":"司法局局長"},{"start":186.323,"end":213.063,"text":"呃..."},{"start":213.163,"end":214.283,"text":"方偉,如果像您剛剛這樣的"},{"start":229.049,"end":236.676,"text":"您怎麼去認定有沒有違法,甚至有沒有依法去輔導或是處罰?因為這個個案的情形,我是不是可以請業務單位跟委員這邊來了解,進一步來了解,然後看應該做怎麼樣一個處理?"},{"start":251.755,"end":254.796,"text":"就業服務法也是三十年了本來你自己的"},{"start":281.602,"end":296.511,"text":"也有特別去提到說因為就業服務法三十年在前年的我們的勞動部發行的臺灣勞工紀刊72期也特別提到要去做這幾項的一個改革可是"},{"start":298.759,"end":317.354,"text":"這個改革看到我們過去的就服法裡邊看到什麼外國人聘僱跟管理的比重大於就業服務本來這個就服法是要促進國人的就業可是在34條到83條這麼高的比重幾乎都在講外國人聘僱跟管理比較多"},{"start":317.714,"end":343.041,"text":"比重佔到三分之二這樣的比重到底我們這救福法是要促進我們國人就業尤其我很關心的青年就業幾乎都沒有在這邊反而事實上是大力去促成我們外國人這不應該是拉出來做專法去討論嗎怎麼會是合併在你這邊而且佔了三分之二強的一個比重那這個救福法到底是去滿足我們外國人聘僱還是事實上要促進我們國人就業"},{"start":344.401,"end":364.297,"text":"那連相關的辦法基本上也是三分之二反而是對於國內勞工的就業服務反而談的比較少連你今天的報告也是這樣因為今天的報告比重上也看起來非常偏頗的幾乎大概兩頁談到我們國內的就業要未來怎麼提振"},{"start":364.717,"end":390.21,"text":"可是有三頁都在續名是我們的外國的整個聘僱要怎麼去做我覺得這比重失衡的狀況裡邊我們國人的就業、青年的或者是中高齡的就業當然我知道部長很努力中高齡的就業的確有些起色可是青年就業呢青年事實上是未來我們國家的本可是這部分好像做得很少所以我也想問的是以這樣子來看部長知不知道"},{"start":391.676,"end":402.648,"text":"在我們的地方政府在人的聘僱率上會不會因為你的比重上落差而人的聘用也是有落差的?"},{"start":404.492,"end":409.294,"text":"您有這樣的質疑,我是跟你回答說不會啦,但是當然你有質疑我們必須把數據提供給我們來瞭解。"},{"start":428.303,"end":455.531,"text":"如果你今天不是在地方政府去促進我們國內的人的就業反而事實上大量把它著力在我們的外國的聘僱我覺得不太適宜那就業服務法歷年修正的次數都是單休一些那你認為這些我剛剛已經提過就是說這樣的修正裡面幾乎都是以外國人聘僱我不知道部長是不是覺得合理嗎就是"},{"start":456.523,"end":479.315,"text":"整個你比較比重上比較都是以外國人聘僱跟管理為主這幾次的修正都是以因為可能因為外國人聘僱他可能有一些認為時空背景或是需要一些做一些滾動性的修正對可是大概都是以外國人怎麼不是我們自己國內的就業的提振呢"},{"start":480.938,"end":501.148,"text":"國內就業提振我們是很多的用計畫方案去推動政府常常跟我講要依法行事如果法裡邊沒有定的話通常不會依法行事反而會變成我們國內的就業事實上會呈現比較不穩定的狀態反而你大量的事實上"},{"start":501.828,"end":524.515,"text":"思考的事實上是外國評估的管理的模式。報告委員,其實我們很多法,它會授權一些執法訂定計劃或相關的方案去推動。執行面我們都是訂定計劃去推動,因為用計劃的話,比較容易去滾動性的修正。對,可是部長,我們看齁,像現在……其他都是在法的大架構下去推動,都是依法行政。"},{"start":524.735,"end":540.745,"text":"像去看原來的我們的就業服務法規定的就業服務本頁做好了嗎?我認為沒有。為什麼?因為民間就業服務機構等於同於我們的移工聘僱所專屬的代辦單位對國安求職的服務轉向數位的人力銀行像11104"},{"start":542.846,"end":569.622,"text":"這樣子的一個方式而就業服務難道只有一工聘僱嗎或網路上的人力銀行當下我們的公立就業服務中心這些服務機構所提供的職業訓練跟就業諮詢跟我們的職業心理測驗和我們受委任的招募這些資源用使用率都非常非常的低有沒有去檢討這些單位甚至連職業推薦這項業務都效果都不如預期"},{"start":570.562,"end":596.094,"text":"所以失利的更不用講了所以在這樣的狀況底下我不知道就是說我們還有辦法去有能力去做嗎?像我剛剛講的青年就業促進還避免職業傷害跟協助我們障礙者中高齡及高齡者的這些就業的職業我們在使用目前我真的很少看到青年對青年這一塊因為這些越來越加重的需求我覺得勞動部應該要去因應"},{"start":596.874,"end":620.257,"text":"報告委員這個部分我跟委員報告我們這幾年推動的包括在重視在疫情之間我們青年的失業都降到歷來最低那我們真的推動上有一些成果出來部長是不是要時間關係再請你把相關的因為我真的連今天報告我都看不出來因為你的比重上真的就很失衡了那最後大概就是希望你在於這一塊是不是可以去做"},{"start":621.378,"end":621.678,"text":"謝謝林月營"}]}},{"id":"151719","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151719","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce155bed40b3e3e5c77120df1bb4ac2af973c68e374cd8c4bed0c153fc20d1be5a3b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:08:08 - 09:21:23","影片長度":"00:13:15","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":795,"end_time":"2024-04-25T09:21:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T09:08:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":26,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時8分）主席謝謝，麻煩請王次長。"],["主席：有請王次長。"],["王次長時思：委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長早。次長，今天我們就兒少頻道的部分來做討論，其實我想從去年大家共同完成公共電視法修法，解除9億的限制，可以有更多的量能，所以今天看到你們的計畫是2023年至少要挹注兒少6億元的經費開始來做，但是本席也說，對比其他包括英國、加拿大、美國、德國、法國等相關的國家，都已經有一個全國性的兒少頻道了，臺灣今年8月才開始，真的還是慢了。不過我們想，亡羊補牢猶未晚矣，重點是我們現在要來討論到底我們未來的方向怎麼樣能夠更精進，以及加速來做。","我先請教一下，在節目製作的部分，我有看到這個時間，新製的時間從原本的326個小時提升到362個小時，這指的是一年，是不是？"],["王次長時思：是指今年。"],["洪委員孟楷：今年？"],["王次長時思：因為節目的產製大概需要一定的時間，沒辦法現在開始就現在完成，所以是預計113（今）年要提升的時數。"],["洪委員孟楷：這等於是一年新製那麼多的時數，你們預計未來的目標是什麼？這個本席比較好奇，因為這個指的是新製，一個頻道裡面即便是算白天的時間，就是不扣掉晚上沒有收看的時間，或是扣掉大家比較會關注的時間……"],["王次長時思：如果是整體的新製時數，113年我們預估的是639小時。"],["洪委員孟楷：639小時？113年……"],["王次長時思：對，它比112年整體新製的……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有，你這邊寫的是362小時。"],["王次長時思：那個計算基礎有一點不同，就是326到362的部分是指純自製，那其實現在公視的策略是除了自製之外，也同時跟其他的產業來做合作，所以整體來說，它的提升時數是將近兩倍，326到362的這個時數其實指的是它純自製的節目，我想它的計算基礎應該是要說明清楚才對。"],["洪委員孟楷：是啊！這一點就是本席納悶的地方，你連今天給我們的報告，照理講，各部會都是報喜不報憂，有漂亮的數字儘量多報，結果你們是報憂不報喜，明明有六百多個時數，你們只有報三百多個時數，害我剛剛在算，我想一整年我們的新製節目才三百多個時數，換算成整年的平均來講，那是剩下的節目都是重播嗎？還是怎麼樣？"],["王次長時思：沒有、沒有，沒有重播，就是……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，所以是不是會後請整理一個最正確完整的數字，告訴本席到底我們的兒少頻道在今年（113年）會有多少的新製節目，好不好？"],["王次長時思：好，沒有問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來，我想新製節目是一個部分，但是更重要的是譬如我自己是兩個孩子的父親，我的一個3歲半，一個5歲，我們唸一百句不及卡通明星講一句。說飯後要刷牙，睡前要刷牙，講半天，我們要追著他跑，然後說我來幫你刷牙，他打死不要，但是只要巧虎一跟他講要刷牙喔！他馬上拿著牙刷說，爸爸，我今天晚上要刷牙，不然，不能睡覺。一樣的道理，明星很重要，本席也常常陪我女兒看波力，甚至我都會唱波力的歌，波力、波力、波力，不怕任何危險！波力、波力、波力，一起勇敢冒險……"],["王次長時思：委員是非常好的爸爸。"],["洪委員孟楷：還會跳，對不對？那麼輕鬆只是來鋪陳，重點是我們的明星在哪裡？我們現在兒少頻道的明星，能不能舉一下例？本席剛剛也特別在YouTube上找，找不到，第一、是不是我們的公視有什麼樣的限制？因為很多家長一定跟本席一樣，如果小朋友真的要看這個節目的時候，我們就是打開YouTube，找巧虎、波力，可能就會有，就可以給他們看，可是剛剛本席也找了你們自己講的這一些比較有名的節目，我找不到半個，我們在YouTube上有沒有辦法放？是我們有版權問題，還是我們有什麼考量，沒有辦法推廣？第二，到底我們的主力是誰？"],["王次長時思：我想對於臺灣自製IP的提升的確是在接下來兒少內容的一個重要工作，公視其實也有一些自己發展的IP，像水果奶奶，還有勇者動畫，這些系列其實……"],["洪委員孟楷：水果奶奶是1998年到現在，水果冰淇淋嘛！"],["王次長時思：對，水果冰淇淋。"],["洪委員孟楷：對啊！1998年到現在。IP打造不容易，我承認……"],["王次長時思：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有你以為砸錢就可以的，沒有這種事……"],["王次長時思：對，委員很瞭解。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是能夠怎麼樣利用他人之力，他山之石可以攻錯，就是別的國家有創造一些真的不錯的IP，我們能不能複製，其實這也談很多，臺劇也是這樣，看到別人劇怎麼樣，我們也希望能夠複製……"],["王次長時思：對，在產製的模式上啦！但IP還是要新創。"],["洪委員孟楷：看到別人綜藝節目怎麼樣，我們也希望能夠複製，至於兒少頻道，本席想問就次長心目中的想法或是公視兒少頻道的想法，我們有沒有一個主力未來可以代表我們兒少頻道？"],["王次長時思：我想我可以直接請公視就兒少頻道的IP規劃這一部分來做比較清楚的說明。"],["洪委員孟楷：來簡單說明，好不好？你們現在有沒有？譬如一個頻道，誰可以代表，讓我們之後想到？"],["徐總經理秋華：其實水果奶奶當然是最招牌的，但是因為他本來是真人來扮，我們在前年開始已經把它動畫化，所以現在已經有個妖果小學的IP，我們持續在推廣。","妖果小學其實非常受小朋友歡迎，我們辦很多巡迴，小朋友已經都會唱跳妖果的主題曲了，現在我們還授權它的IP給如果兒童劇團，所以劇團中也有融入妖果的這些偶，我們也授權了Switch，它也已經變成一個遊戲，還有AR、VR等實體的展演，其實小朋友都非常的喜歡，但是過去就是資源不夠，今年有這個資源進來，我們會再把妖果的IP做得更擴大，同時我……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們預計利用資源打造妖果小學，「妖」是妖怪的「妖」，對不對？"],["徐總經理秋華：對，是以臺灣的妖怪……"],["洪委員孟楷：好，預計我們要花多少的經費來做這樣的部分？"],["徐總經理秋華：其實妖果這一季（第二季）是4,000萬的預算在做第二次的動畫，因為我們第一季是做了6集15分鐘而已，所以我們第二季會再增加它的量。"],["洪委員孟楷：增加多少？因為本席現在馬上就查妖果小學……"],["徐總經理秋華：第二季是11集。"],["洪委員孟楷：在YouTube上面，第一季就是13集，每1集7分鐘，是不是？"],["徐總經理秋華：對、對、對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我隨便點一則，觀看次數1,162次，說實在話，這不是一個我們期待的或是理想的或是真的知名度高的IP，這很事實，我們今天就事論事。您剛剛提妖果小學，我馬上查YouTube上公視兒少這個頻道有13萬8,000位訂閱戶，而妖果小學影集第一季第10集1,162次的觀賞，第12集1,222次的觀賞，所以說實在話，這個量能還不夠，量能還不夠，這是確實……"],["徐總經理秋華：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，針對這個部分，至少我們自己自製的節目，我們也希望有教育意義，我們也希望能夠打造一個好的IP，這樣一個自製節目，我們有沒有期待，剛剛有講了，今年有4,000萬，4,000萬其實對大家來講不一定多，但是有沒有一個KPI是至少我們在今年可以有多少的觀眾數或是多少人來瞭解，甚至能夠推廣到多少，甚至有沒有可能結合教育部、有沒有可能結合衛福部？"],["王次長時思：我想整體來說，臺灣在兒少節目的IP不足和它的收視情況不夠理想是一個現實的狀態，所以也非常感謝，去年才會以這個新的資源挹注投入整個兒少平臺，我想兒少平臺目前是一個起點，所以在接下來不管是跟教育部、跟衛福部合作或者是如何擴大，因為現在除了這個專屬頻道，其實公視也打開了多平臺的服務，它也不再專屬於單一頻道，妖果小學堂只是剛剛公視提到一個目前已經在公視有一定成果的IP，但是還有包括在民間既有IP的開發，像其他的戲劇類節目來說，公視這幾年其實也拿出了很好的成績，包括現在正在上映的「鹽水大飯店」，還有「不夠善良的我們」，所以我想在兒童戲劇和動畫節目上面，應該還是可以期待在接下來我們可以看到比較好的發展，尤其在今年，我們如果整個總時數提升是兩倍，有了兒少頻道之後，至少我們可以保證整個兒少節目的時數有一定的量，小朋友想看的時候，有臺灣自己的兒童戲劇或動畫或者是各種節目可以看，就會大量改善我們整體在兒少節目呈現的狀況……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，我沒有要打斷你的話，但是第一、我們今天談論兒少節目，你又去扯「不夠善良的我們」，又扯到戲劇……"],["王次長時思：沒有，我指的是公視的……"],["洪委員孟楷：這個是有點奇怪！第二、本席就是知道現在不足，不足是事實，我們今天討論的是怎麼樣提升，如同你今天的專案報告是說轉型兒少頻道之後怎麼樣能夠讓我們這個量能出來，這也是去年我們就……"],["王次長時思：我想在時數和收看的倍增……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以本席認為兩個部分，我比較具體的建議，兒少頻道其實受眾有，受眾主要是教育部的部分、主要是衛福部的部分，2到6歲的可能是衛福部的部分，6到12歲、15歲的可能是教育部的部分，都是我們兒少頻道的受眾，是不是能夠針對這一個部分找教育部、找衛福部來開會討論怎麼樣能夠推廣？第二個部分是針對我們的KPI，就是兒少頻道總是你要做出好的節目，我也期待我們做出優良的節目，但是做出優良的節目以外，要有人看，這個是重點。","這兩個部分怎麼樣？有沒有具體的計畫？我不否認你今天的專案報告，我身為一個家長，我期待我們臺灣有好的自製節目，但是我要的是除了好的自製節目以外，還要有更多人看，甚至我們的兒童以後成長的過程有……然後我們會自豪，將來大了之後會叫我們的小朋友看。"],["王次長時思：我想在整體時數及觀看流量上面的倍增，應該是可以提出來的一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：倍增？"],["王次長時思：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以一千多次變兩千多次？"],["王次長時思：不是，是整體的，不是指單一節目，我是說整體的。因為如果你的時數是倍增的情況下，你的流量當然都可以達到至少是倍增的效果，我想最重要的是擴充那個內容……"],["洪委員孟楷：我比較具體建議，第一，是不是能夠找文化部邀集教育部跟衛福部來討論一下怎麼樣能夠來推廣。"],["王次長時思：可以，這沒問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：一個月內？"],["王次長時思：可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：我覺得這比較具體，因為受眾在他們那邊，其實我們很清楚我們的兒少頻道受眾在哪裡，那當然就是借助跨部會的力量。"],["王次長時思：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：第二個就是針對KPI的部分，到年底我們能夠提出什麼樣的方案？下一個會期開會我想我們還是會針對這個部分，到時候本席會再追，我希望你們好好努力。"],["王次長時思：一定會。"],["洪委員孟楷：站在家長的立場上，我們期待的是有優質的節目，讓全國所有的孩童能夠看到，並且真的是有推廣。"],["王次長時思：這也是我們努力的目標，謝謝委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，一個月開會之後，再把結論告訴本席以及教育及文化委員會的委員可以嗎？"],["王次長時思：可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。","接下來請柯志恩召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","葉元之","陳培瑜","何欣純","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","范雲","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","林月琴","陳冠廷","羅智強"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫─ 公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":2.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.30909375,"end":2.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.51096875,"end":6.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.699718750000002,"end":13.952843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.087843750000001,"end":15.876593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.450343750000002,"end":17.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.504093750000003,"end":24.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.465968750000002,"end":76.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.01471875,"end":89.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.48534375,"end":102.20909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.02096875000001,"end":91.81409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.98221875,"end":96.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.87159375,"end":105.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.19596875,"end":106.41096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.15346875,"end":109.14471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.71409375,"end":113.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.98784375000001,"end":123.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.60659375,"end":128.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.70284375,"end":130.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.41159375,"end":131.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.14971875,"end":133.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.02284375000002,"end":155.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.36346875,"end":140.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.41409375,"end":140.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.46471875,"end":140.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.54909375,"end":140.61659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.55534375000002,"end":155.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.82096875000002,"end":164.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.95034375,"end":176.44221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.31971875000002,"end":177.82596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.72471875000002,"end":195.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.07284375,"end":191.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.51096875000002,"end":206.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.81846875000002,"end":199.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.39221875,"end":199.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.69596875000002,"end":200.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.23096875000002,"end":205.26471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.26471875000001,"end":206.02409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.02409375000002,"end":206.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.83409375000002,"end":215.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.52471875,"end":217.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.17846875,"end":238.40721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.59284375000001,"end":241.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.49096875,"end":246.08534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.59159375000002,"end":247.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.99221875,"end":253.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.52721875,"end":255.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.42159375000003,"end":256.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.96971875,"end":257.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.42534375,"end":261.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.52159375,"end":267.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.29284375000003,"end":268.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.82846875,"end":276.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.11846875000003,"end":280.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.03346875,"end":281.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.06284375,"end":282.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.09221875000003,"end":283.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.12159375000005,"end":285.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.12971875,"end":290.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.68596875000003,"end":293.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.56721875,"end":304.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.18659375000004,"end":300.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.94534375,"end":310.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.02034375,"end":318.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.04034375000003,"end":326.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.57909375,"end":364.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.25034375,"end":351.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.97596875000005,"end":355.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.91909375,"end":367.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.45034375,"end":372.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.46659375,"end":375.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.09471875,"end":377.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.01409375000003,"end":424.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.17971875,"end":398.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":423.25596875,"end":433.38096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.72346875000005,"end":431.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.73534375,"end":446.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.01596875,"end":447.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.65721875,"end":447.70784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.70784375000005,"end":447.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.06221875000006,"end":449.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.44596875,"end":450.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.42034375000003,"end":452.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.53409375,"end":457.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.28471875,"end":455.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.85846875000004,"end":456.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.68096875000003,"end":459.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.22909375,"end":462.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.55346875000004,"end":464.00909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.83596875,"end":466.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.01721875000004,"end":468.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.71721875000003,"end":469.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.24034375,"end":470.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":471.07971875000004,"end":473.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":474.80909375000005,"end":475.87221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.86784375,"end":479.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.83784375000005,"end":489.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.53659375,"end":496.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.12221875000006,"end":496.81409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.45534375000005,"end":500.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.40409375,"end":502.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.70346875,"end":504.98159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.04471875,"end":507.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.51284375000006,"end":510.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.60096875000005,"end":513.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":513.67221875,"end":513.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.0603437500001,"end":516.2878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":516.6084687499999,"end":517.4353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.04721875,"end":521.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.3672187500001,"end":530.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.3572187500001,"end":543.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.24971875,"end":548.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":549.41346875,"end":599.9878437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":549.98721875,"end":550.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":600.5278437500001,"end":625.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.8784687500001,"end":651.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":631.8815937500001,"end":633.9740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.9740937500001,"end":634.5815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":647.28846875,"end":650.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.54096875,"end":658.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.8647187500001,"end":679.3172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":669.64784375,"end":670.1203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":680.1103437500001,"end":687.8559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.3115937500002,"end":689.3915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":689.9653437500001,"end":691.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":690.9272187500001,"end":692.6653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.0747187500001,"end":703.2122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":703.3640937499999,"end":710.5022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":711.16034375,"end":714.2990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":714.2990937500001,"end":714.3159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":714.3159687500001,"end":714.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":714.36659375,"end":714.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":714.40034375,"end":714.5690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":714.5690937500001,"end":721.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":720.72846875,"end":724.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":724.05284375,"end":735.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.8528437500001,"end":743.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":743.9653437500001,"end":744.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":744.03284375,"end":744.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":744.06659375,"end":744.7922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":744.7922187500001,"end":745.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":747.2053437500001,"end":747.7959687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":748.15034375,"end":759.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":748.9265937499999,"end":749.3315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":758.3090937500001,"end":759.7434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":759.62534375,"end":763.6753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":764.5022187500001,"end":774.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":771.87659375,"end":772.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":774.0534687500001,"end":774.6609687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":774.3572187500001,"end":783.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":782.3897187500002,"end":782.9465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":784.4990937500002,"end":786.7265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":786.10221875,"end":787.9922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":788.17784375,"end":791.9409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":789.8147187500001,"end":790.0678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":792.10971875,"end":793.2234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":792.5990937500001,"end":793.25721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":13.732,"text":"主席謝謝,麻煩請王次長好,有請王次長委員長好"},{"start":25.342,"end":55.082,"text":"市長早市長今天我們就這個兒少頻道的一個部分來做討論其實我想從去年大家共同完成公共電視法修法解除9億的一個限制那可以有更多的一個量能所以說我今天看到說你們的計畫是2023年要挹注至少這個兒少6億元的一個經費開始來做那但是本席也說其實對比其他包括英國、加拿大、美國、德國、法國等"},{"start":55.743,"end":56.123,"text":"主席"},{"start":77.211,"end":89.105,"text":"我先請教一下在節目製作的部分我有看到這個時間新制的時間從原本326個小時提升到362個小時這只是一年是不是"},{"start":89.565,"end":105.993,"text":"是指今年,因為節目的產製大概需要一定的時間,但沒辦法說現在開始就現在完成,所以在今年提升的時數是預計113年的提升時數。那我們預計這等於是一年新制那麼多的時數,我們預計我們未來的目標是什麼?"},{"start":110.748,"end":112.45,"text":"如果說整體的心智時數來說以113年我們預估的是639小時"},{"start":129.632,"end":154.619,"text":"對,他比一二年的整體的心智不大那個計算基礎有一點不同就是說326到362的部分是指純心智那不包括這些本來的就純自治啦那其實現在公視的策略是其他除了自治之外他也同時跟其他的產業來做合作所以整體來說他的提升的時數是將近兩倍那362"},{"start":155.999,"end":161.64,"text":"所以說這一點就是本席納悶的地方就你連今天給我們報告照理講各部會都是報喜不報憂啊有盡量漂亮數字盡量多報結果你們是報憂不報喜啊"},{"start":177.969,"end":206.26,"text":"明明有600多個時數只有你們只有報300多個時數還有我剛剛在算我想說一整年才300多個時數換算成這整年的這個平均來講我們這新制節目那是剩下的節目都是重播嗎還是怎麼樣沒有沒有沒有重播就是說好所以是不是會後請整理一個最正確完整的數字告訴本席說到底我們的兒少頻道在今年11、13年會有多少的這個新制節目好不好"},{"start":206.94,"end":233.673,"text":"再來我想新制節目是一個部分但是更重要的是譬如說我自己是兩個孩子的父親我一個三歲半一個五歲我們自己念一句不及那個卡通明星我們念一百句不及卡通明星講一句說這個飯後要刷牙睡前要刷牙講半天我們要追著他跑然後說我來幫你刷牙他打死不要但是只要那個巧虎一跟他講是說要刷牙喔"},{"start":234.133,"end":253.705,"text":"他馬上他拿著牙刷說爸爸今天晚上要刷牙不然不能睡覺那一樣的道理明星很重要本席也常常陪我女兒看玻璃我甚至我都會唱玻璃的歌玻璃玻璃玻璃不怕任何危險玻璃玻璃玻璃以期勇敢冒險好 還會跳對不對"},{"start":257.506,"end":283.355,"text":"那麼輕鬆只是說來鋪陳啦重點是我們的明星在哪裡我們現在兒少頻道能不能舉一下因為本席剛剛特別也在YouTube上找不到第一是不是我們的公視是有什麼樣的限制我們不讓我們因為很多的家長一定跟本席一樣如果說真的小朋友要看這個節目的時候我們就是打開YouTube找巧虎玻璃"},{"start":284.138,"end":286.339,"text":"對於台灣的自製IP的提升這的確是在接下來的內容的一個重要的"},{"start":311.785,"end":313.306,"text":"水果奶奶是1998年到現在"},{"start":326.758,"end":352.925,"text":"當然我不否認我們台灣IP打造不容易我承認沒有說什麼你以為砸錢就沒有這種事對委員很了解但是能夠怎麼樣利用以他人的這個他山知識可以工作就是說別的國家有創造一些真的不錯的IP我們能不能有複製其實這也談很多啦台劇也是這樣嘛看到別人劇怎麼樣那我們也希望是說能夠複製對在產製的模式上但IP很小心狀"},{"start":356.426,"end":376.941,"text":"本席想問到目前為止或說就次長你心目中的想法或說我們公視這個兒少頻道的想法我們有沒有一個主力未來可以代表我們兒少頻道我想我可以直接請公視就兒少頻道的IP的規劃這一部分來做比較清楚的說明來簡單說明好不好你們現在有沒有比如說一個頻道誰可以代表我們之後想到"},{"start":378.532,"end":398.011,"text":"其實《學過奶奶》當然是最招牌的但是因為它本來是真人來辦我們現在其實在前年開始我們已經把它做動畫化所以已經有個妖果小學的IP現在我們持續在推廣但是妖果小學它其實非常受小朋友歡迎其實我們辦很多巡迴小朋友已經都會唱跳那個妖果的主題曲了"},{"start":398.551,"end":398.991,"text":"我們預計資源打造妖果小學"},{"start":427.304,"end":448.881,"text":"腰是妖怪的腰嗎?對不對?預計我們要花多少的一個經費來做這樣的一個部分?其實妖果這一季第二季是4000萬的預算是在做第二次的動畫因為我們第一季是做了6集15分鐘而已所以我們第二季會再增加它的量增加多少?"},{"start":452.027,"end":467.217,"text":"因為本期現在馬上就查妖國小學在我們YouTube上面第一季就是13集那每一集7分鐘是不是對我隨便點一則啊觀看次數1162次1162次"},{"start":477.189,"end":503.166,"text":"說實在話這不是一個我們期待或是說理想或說真的知名度高的IP這很事實我們今天就是認識您剛提妖國小學我馬上查youtube上公視兒少這個頻道是3萬8千人的這個點閱戶而妖國小學影集第一季第10集1162次的觀賞"},{"start":506.087,"end":520.579,"text":"第12集一千兩百二十二次的觀賞所以說實在話還這量呢還不夠喔量呢還不夠這確實來次長針對這個部分我們有沒有一個不要說KPI啦但至少"},{"start":521.482,"end":548.507,"text":"我們自己自製的節目我們也希望有教育意義我們也希望能夠打造一個好的IP那這樣子一個自製節目我們有沒有期待在今年剛剛有講了4千萬4千萬其實對大家來講不一定多但是有沒有一個KPI會認為是說至少我們在今年可以有多少的觀眾數或是說多少人來了解甚至說能夠推廣到多少甚至有沒有可能結合教育部有沒有可能結合衛福部"},{"start":549.448,"end":565.095,"text":"我想整體來說臺灣在兒少節目的IP的不足跟它的收視的情況沒有不夠理想這個是一個現實的狀態所以也非常感謝在去年才會以這個新的資源挹注整個投入兒少平台"},{"start":565.535,"end":593.685,"text":"那我想兒少平台目前是一個起點所以在接下來不管是跟教育部跟衛福部的合作或者是說如何擴大因為現在除了這個專屬頻道其實公視也打開了多媒體的服務多平台的服務它也不再專屬於單一頻道那邀國小學堂只是剛剛公視提到一個目前已經在公視有一定成果的IP但是呢包括在民間既有的IP的開發那以像其他的戲劇類節目來說公視這幾年其實也拿出了很好的成績包括現在正在上映的我們"},{"start":594.505,"end":599.424,"text":"包括這個鹽水飯店還有我們不夠善良這一類所以我想在"},{"start":600.795,"end":621.696,"text":"對於兒童戲劇及動畫節目上應該還是可以期待在接下來我們可以看到比較好的發展尤其在今年我們如果整個總時數提升是兩倍有了兒少頻道之後至少我們可以保證整個兒少的節目的時數有一定的量那小朋友想看的時候有台灣自己的兒童的戲劇或動畫或者是各種的節目可以看他就會大量改善我們整體在兒少節目在總的這個兒少節目呈現的價值"},{"start":625.299,"end":649.607,"text":"市長我沒有打斷你的話但是第一我們今天談論兒少節目你又去扯說我們不夠善良又扯到這個戲劇這個是有點奇怪那第二本席就是知道說現在不足不足是事實我們今天討論的是怎麼樣提升如同你今天的簡報是說專案報告怎麼樣能夠轉型兒少頻道之後能夠讓我們這個量能出來嘛這也是去年我們所以本席認為是說這樣子"},{"start":651.881,"end":677.775,"text":"兩個部分我比較具體的建議是不是能夠針對兒少頻道它其實受眾有那受眾主要是教育部主要是衛福部2到6歲可能衛福部6到這個12歲15歲這可能是教育部的部分都是我們兒少頻道一個受眾是不是能夠針對這個部分找教育部找衛福部這邊來開會來討論怎麼樣能夠推廣那另外第二個部分是針對我們的這個KPI"},{"start":680.185,"end":689.186,"text":"就是說兒少頻道總是你做出好的節目我也期待我們做出優良的節目但是做出優良的節目以外要有人看這個是重點嘛"},{"start":690.431,"end":710.243,"text":"這兩部分怎麼樣?有沒有具體的計畫?因為這樣子我就會比你今天我今天不否認今天的專案報告我身為一個家長我期待我們台灣有好的自製節目但是我要的是除了好的自製節目以外更多人看甚至我們的兒童以後成長的過程有"},{"start":711.084,"end":738.916,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":739.056,"end":763.457,"text":"文化部來邀請教育部跟衛福部這邊來討論一下怎麼樣能夠來推廣可以 這沒問題一個月一個月內可以 是不是我覺得這比較具體我不知道因為受眾在他們那邊其實我們很清楚我們的兒少頻道受眾是哪裡那當然就是借助他跨部會的力量那第二個部分就是針對這個KPI的部分到年底"},{"start":764.554,"end":764.834,"text":"謝謝,可以,可以"}]}},{"id":"151718","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151718","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce1529651cdaf2c12340c97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed08fc1c8a01bc256bc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:09:35 - 09:20:10","影片長度":"00:10:35","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":635,"end_time":"2024-04-25T09:20:10+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T09:09:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":178,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時9分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：陳委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。之前我在質詢印度移工議題的時候有提到，這是一個很好的機會，可以採取政府對政府、國對國的直聘制度。當時你也覺得會這樣做，而且您自己也提到，因為是一個全新的來源國，我們如果從一開始就來談，會是比較容易的，否則像現在的其他來源國，因為直聘制度做得很差，其實是不到百分之一，所以大家都習慣透過仲介。林淑芬委員也提到，這是一個契機，導正過去錯誤政策，建立所謂的印度模式，採取國對國直聘，最重要是要弱化私人仲介的角色，而且避免巧立名目剝削移工，當時部長也表示認同。部長，您當時在委員會的回應跟態度，會讓委員或是勞工團體以為印度移工就要採取國對國的直聘。但是我們看一下4月3號公布的MOU第八條，老實說，我們看了有一點傻眼。第八條規定，除現有招募制度外，雙方同意推動直接聘僱計畫，縮短流程、簡化文件、設立單一窗口及選工制度。部長，這個和現行政策沒有什麼不同啊！第一句的「現有招募制度」，意思是仍然允許透過私人仲介引進嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，當初在談招募的部分，因為我們現在其實也就是雙軌、多元，但是……"],["陳委員昭姿：這次也繼續雙軌嗎？"],["許部長銘春：這次基本上也會是雙軌，但是我跟委員報告，我們是希望以直聘方式作為主要的談判，其實我們現在推動直聘上，很多是因為來源國的配合度問題……"],["陳委員昭姿：但因為這是全新的……"],["許部長銘春：不是說我們不願意做，很多是來源國的問題，所以我們會把這個部分列為優先議題來談。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長我瞭解，但是雙軌制到目前是非常的失敗，我們知道雙軌就是私人仲介跟直聘，但直聘比率不到1%……"],["許部長銘春：不是，委員，雙軌是這樣子，我記得像越南還有印尼，移工來源國對這個部分是消極的，所以這個不是說我們做不好，而是來源國不願意配合，這次在印度方面，我們希望這是優先議題，就是優先來談國與國之間能夠直聘，也希望印度這邊能夠同意，不要像其他國家不太願意配合這件事。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，這個背後的協商我們是不瞭解，但是因為當時你給我們這一線希望，就是往國對國……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我的態度是很清楚的，我是希望國與國……"],["陳委員昭姿：但是現在這個MOU內容，你覺得是國對國的關係嗎？現在的MOU，我們看到的……"],["許部長銘春：所有各國的引進方式，在架構上都是會有比較多元的方式，但是我們在後續的工作層級會議……報告委員，這是MOU，MOU就是一個備忘錄、一個大方向、原則，但後續的工作層級會議，那才是重點！"],["陳委員昭姿：好，瞭解部長的意思。"],["許部長銘春：所以我要跟委員說明我們的態度，就是我們……"],["陳委員昭姿：因為時間有限……"],["許部長銘春：這個部分是列為優先談判的部分。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，我瞭解。但是我們來看看真正所謂的國對國直聘，這是韓國的例子，大家都瞭解，韓國直聘制度還得過聯合國的公共服務首獎，他有幾個特點，第一，由政府設立行政法人，並在海外設立分處，辦理選工跟技能測驗等等的一些服務。請問，我們現在的直聘中心是行政機關嗎？不是嘛！它就是一個外包，外包給廠商嘛！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員……"],["陳委員昭姿：對，它不是行政機關，而且直聘中心也沒有在海外設點，沒有在海外設立辦理選工跟訓練移工的作法。第二，引入韓國的移工，需要進行語言能力跟技能的測驗，作為人力公團選工的參考。但我國引進的移工事實上沒有做這些測驗，這是第二點。第三，移工入境後，由人力公團協助接機，移工參加就業培訓完成之後，公團會協助送移工到工作場所。請問我們的直聘中心有接機服務嗎？有送移工到他的工作場所嗎？也沒有嘛！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我作這樣說明，韓國其實引進移工時間比我們晚，所以他們一開始就沒有所謂的私人仲介問題，當時就是由國家辦理直聘，他們就是這樣的一個政策，所以當他去談的時候，當然來源國願意跟他合作……"],["陳委員昭姿：不過我們總是參考嘛！"],["許部長銘春：但是我們會參考，所以我跟委員報告，像我們現在針對家庭看護工的一站式服務，就是參考韓國的例子，包括一站式服務去接機……"],["陳委員昭姿：一站式服務現在只在家事移工部分，事業移工、產業移工現在沒有……"],["許部長銘春：因為我們是先從家庭看護工開始試辦。"],["陳委員昭姿：試辦很久了耶！"],["許部長銘春：沒有，沒有，一年多而已，去年1月才正式上路。"],["陳委員昭姿：反正部長是說要往這個方向做。還有韓國的人力公團要追蹤移工的工作狀況，現在全世界各國都在關心勞動權益，所以他們會去瞭解移工的適應狀況等等。基本上我不怪直聘中心，因為目前是外包廠商，他們就是根據勞動部提出的合約需求去執行。","部長，左邊這張圖是我取得的勞動部委託直聘中心的計畫需求書，你們對廠商的工作要求幾乎都只是代收、代轉文件，就是我畫紅線的地方，也就是勞動部一開始定位這個直聘中心其實只是一個收發中心，我知道上次你不太同意這樣的說法，但我們看這些文字，我們並沒有賦予直聘中心這些任務，包括選工、技能測驗、語言測驗，以及關心移工的適應狀況，這個標案一年就七千多萬，但是它的規模只有二十幾位員工，人數可能比仲介公司還要少，勞動部如果有心要做，這二十幾個人是沒有辦法負擔這麼龐大的業務，二十幾人怎麼服務七十幾萬人，所以我們是不是應該成立一個行政法人的機構來處理直聘的問題？"],["許部長銘春：我們的直聘是讓雇主多一個選擇，因為臺灣現在的狀況，雇主有他個人的考量……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，就要再積極一點，無論是……"],["許部長銘春：跟委員報告，直聘當然要做，我一定會把它做好，讓它易於使用，所以我們不也斷在精進，因為……"],["陳委員昭姿：好，但是這個方向我們現在還看不到，期許將來是往這個方向走。"],["許部長銘春：是，是，我們會持續來精進。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我再跟你談一下有關護理師的勞動問題。我在3月20日也曾質詢你有關護理師加班費的問題，不曉得部長還有沒有印象，但是部長當時說有加班事實，就要給加班費……"],["許部長銘春：要給加班費啊！"],["陳委員昭姿：而且不滿1小時部分，要按照比例發給。我在上面有寫出我們詢答的內容，部長表示勞動部每年都會針對過往違規紀錄不良的事業機構，請勞動單位進行專案檢查。部長，我們當時的對話是這樣，請你確認一下。但是我要告訴你的是，上個月19日，二十幾位護理師到臺南市政府抗議，因為成大醫院長期人力不足，這些護理師被迫加班，基於職責不好拒絕，但院方卻未依規定給他們加班費。有二十五名護理師反映他們超時工作，也嘗試自救，自己擬定加班意願書，結果就被上級主管把人調走，也就是說，有問題沒有辦法解決，就把提出問題的人解決掉了！護理師真的是身心受創，甚至有懷孕後期的護理師有9天的加班紀錄。部長，不好意思，我再讓你看一下這些處分的罰責。臺南市勞工局出來表示有發現該院加班以0.5小時計算，會進行裁處。問題是我們在勞動部違反勞動法令事業單位的查詢系統上，根本查不到這個裁處資料，最新的一筆仍停留在去年12月，部長，臺南市勞工局可以公然說謊嗎？可以公然說謊嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們這個是兩個月公布一次，他們上傳……"],["陳委員昭姿：但是護理師申訴了，再看一下這個罰責，去年成大醫院加班費發放不足，被罰1萬；延長工時沒有給工資，被罰5萬；沒記載勞工出勤情形至分鐘為止，被罰2萬；看到這樣的罰款金額，部長，成大醫院並不是第一次違反勞基法，它是累犯，2017、2019年都有，國立大學附設醫院這樣子可以從輕發落嗎？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，累犯的話會加重。"],["陳委員昭姿：他們應該是其他醫院的典範啊！"],["許部長銘春：我們有一個裁量基準啦！"],["陳委員昭姿：2019、2023都再犯，而且只罰款……"],["許部長銘春：我們有裁量基準，如果再犯，是會加重。"],["陳委員昭姿：結果就是罰2萬啊！他是累犯，罰2萬最低的罰責，我覺得這樣不合理，部長，你覺得合理嗎？"],["許部長銘春：呃，當然如果是累犯的話……"],["陳委員昭姿：他是累犯啊！我這邊的紀錄都有啊！"],["許部長銘春：累犯的話就是要加重，這個部分……"],["陳委員昭姿：我個人最後的結論是，勞動部跟地方主管機關應該站在勞工權益，多多設身處地替他們著想，護理師已經很珍貴了！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們一定站在勞工立場，針對這個個案部分，沒關係，我們會跟地方勞政機關再進行瞭解，也請他們要針對這些有違法的事業單位積極查處，該加重就要加重，我們一定要維護勞工的權益。"],["陳委員昭姿：麻煩勞動部再督促臺南市勞工局相關的懲處紀錄，還有處罰的情形，讓這些護理師不要再繼續這樣過勞，謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳昭姿委員發言。","接下來請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.995968750000001,"end":10.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.134093750000002,"end":45.525968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.141593750000002,"end":21.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.47471875,"end":22.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.18409375,"end":55.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.937843750000006,"end":56.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.477843750000005,"end":67.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.15971875000001,"end":94.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.34096875,"end":102.36096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.40721875000001,"end":103.44096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.44096875000001,"end":103.45784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.45784375000001,"end":103.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.49159375,"end":103.66034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.66034375000001,"end":103.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.77846875,"end":103.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.79534375,"end":103.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.50409375000001,"end":113.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.22846875,"end":113.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.95409375000001,"end":115.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.39284375000001,"end":115.72596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.74284375,"end":122.37471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.76284375,"end":124.36596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.70346875000001,"end":125.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.10409375,"end":132.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.90471875,"end":143.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.59659375,"end":135.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.39784375000002,"end":136.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.06409375,"end":139.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.08034375,"end":152.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.29846875,"end":157.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.13284375,"end":158.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.94284375,"end":161.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.25034375,"end":166.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.95846875,"end":171.78471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.35846875000001,"end":174.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.00784375,"end":184.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.20909375000002,"end":191.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.44471875000002,"end":188.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.98034375,"end":193.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.77284375000002,"end":194.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.82346875000002,"end":200.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.94909375,"end":202.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.37471875,"end":206.88471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.39096875,"end":224.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.44846875000002,"end":217.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.83596875,"end":223.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.59096875,"end":226.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.70034375,"end":230.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.59846875000002,"end":249.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.96221875,"end":251.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.99159375000002,"end":253.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.25284375,"end":278.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.61534375,"end":257.29034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.04971875,"end":258.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.90721875,"end":279.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.75096875,"end":279.76784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.83534375,"end":295.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.88596875,"end":280.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.67471875,"end":281.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.12534375,"end":287.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.72409375,"end":289.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.92659375,"end":289.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.53409375,"end":290.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.03534375000004,"end":302.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.38971875000004,"end":296.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.76846875,"end":308.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.06284375,"end":328.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.21784375000004,"end":319.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.59284375000004,"end":320.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.51159375000003,"end":328.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.58721875000003,"end":335.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.85721875,"end":330.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.14784375000005,"end":332.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.66659375,"end":334.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.71284375000005,"end":339.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.45471875000004,"end":340.61909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.61909375000005,"end":344.55096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.76659375,"end":344.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.55096875000004,"end":344.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.73659375,"end":347.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.72784375000003,"end":411.84846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.92159375,"end":349.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.96659375,"end":418.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.56971875000005,"end":413.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.12159375000005,"end":427.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":428.18346875000003,"end":428.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.68971875000005,"end":433.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.12846875,"end":432.94221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":433.34721875,"end":439.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.02971875000003,"end":448.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.21534375000005,"end":440.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.66596875000005,"end":447.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.28159375,"end":483.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.08596875,"end":458.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":460.93784375,"end":462.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.66846875000005,"end":539.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":537.01034375,"end":537.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.4740937500001,"end":539.4909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.5034687500001,"end":543.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.38909375,"end":558.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":544.1315937500001,"end":544.7053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.47721875,"end":546.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.7790937500001,"end":568.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":568.65096875,"end":575.68784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.0047187499999,"end":575.6540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.27846875,"end":576.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":576.54846875,"end":580.1597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.2065937500001,"end":581.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.2609687500001,"end":580.2778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":580.34534375,"end":584.3953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.6909687500001,"end":589.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.94721875,"end":592.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.90034375,"end":593.6259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.6259687500001,"end":593.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.71034375,"end":593.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.72721875,"end":593.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.96346875,"end":598.0134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.67221875,"end":598.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.21596875,"end":607.4128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.42159375,"end":606.8390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":607.1259687500001,"end":614.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.61096875,"end":610.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":614.93909375,"end":624.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.3515937500001,"end":621.3684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":622.3134687500001,"end":634.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.3797187499999,"end":630.7509687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.2022187499999,"end":632.7253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.4509687500001,"end":634.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.3959687500001,"end":634.8684687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.109,"end":9.055,"text":"委員陳昭之委員發言。謝謝主席。有請部長。請許部長。"},{"start":15.274,"end":21.378,"text":"陳委員好部長早部長之前我在質詢這個印度移工議題的時候我有提到就是說這是一個很好的機會可以採取政府對政府、國對國的一個執聘制度當時你也覺得說會這樣做而且您自己也提到說因為一個全新的來源國我們如果從一開始就來談會是比較容易的否則像現在的這個其他的來源國因為執聘制度做得很差其實是不到1%"},{"start":45.114,"end":66.161,"text":"所以大家都習慣透過仲介那林淑芬委員也提到這是一個契機就是說導正過去錯誤的政策建立所謂的印度模式那採取國對國執聘那最重要是要弱化這個私人仲介的角色而且避免這個巧立名目對移工做剝削那當時部長也表示認同"},{"start":67.461,"end":94.627,"text":"那部長您當時在委員會的這個回應跟態度會讓委員或是勞工團體以為我們印度移工就要採取國對國的職併但是部長我們看一下這個4月3號公佈的MOU第8條老實說我們看了有一點傻眼這第8條除現有招募制度外現有招募制度外雙方同意推動職併計畫縮短流程、簡化文件設立單一窗口及選工制度那部長這個和現行的政策"},{"start":95.447,"end":101.667,"text":"沒有什麼不同啊。第一句的現有招募制度意思是仍然允許透過私人仲介引進嗎?"},{"start":104.687,"end":131.452,"text":"報告委員因為當初在談這個招募的部分因為現在我們其實就是雙軌啦雙軌多元啦那這一次也繼續雙軌嗎?這一次基本上也是會有雙軌的一個選擇但是我跟委員報告我們是希望能夠在職聘方面以這個為主要的談判啦主要的談判因為其實我們現在在推動職聘上很多是因為來源國"},{"start":132.972,"end":161.062,"text":"的配合度的問題不是說我們不願意做很多是來源果他的問題所以我們會把這個列為優先議題來談不懂我了解但是雙軌制到目前是非常的失敗你知道雙軌就是仲介跟私人仲介跟這個職聘職聘比率不到1%雙軌是這樣子我記得是像越南還有印尼他們來源果那邊對這個部分是消極的"},{"start":162.362,"end":182.923,"text":"所以這個不是說我們做不好而是來源國他不願意配合那我在這個印度方面我是希望這是我優先的議題就我希望來優先談國與國之間能夠執聘我們希望印度這邊能夠同意不要像其他國家他不太願意"},{"start":183.183,"end":184.243,"text":"但是現在的MOU的內容,你覺得是國對國的關係嗎?現在的MOU我們看到的..."},{"start":203.447,"end":224.877,"text":"各國的這個引進,他們其實在架構上都是會有比較多元的方式但是我們在後續的工作層級會議,報告委員這是MOU,MOU就是一個備忘一個大方向原則但是後續的工作層級會議那才是重點所以報告委員我是要跟您說明一個態度就是說"},{"start":226.057,"end":249.269,"text":"我是我們這個部分用列為優先談判的我瞭解但是我們來看看真正的這個所謂的國對國執聘這是韓國大家都瞭解韓國的執聘還得過聯合國的這個公共服務首獎他有幾個特點第一個由政府設立行政法人並在海外設立分處辦選這個辦理選工跟這個晉能測驗的一些等等部長我們現在執聘中心是行政機關嗎?"},{"start":251.004,"end":278.041,"text":"不是嘛。它是一個外包嘛。外包給廠商嘛。對,它不是。執行中心也沒有在海外設點嘛。沒有在海外設點辦理這個選工跟訓練移工的這個做法嘛。那第二個引入韓國的這個移工他需要進行這個語言能力跟技能的測驗那作為人力工團他們的這個名稱的參考那我國引進的勞工、移工事實上沒有做這些"},{"start":280.404,"end":295.143,"text":"這是第二個。第三個,移工入境後,他是由人力工團去接機。移工培訓完成之後,他們就把他送到工作場所。我們的職聘中心有接機服務嗎?他有送移工到他的工作場所嗎?"},{"start":298.366,"end":315.182,"text":"因為韓國他其實他已經以為是比我們晚所以他一開始他們就沒有所謂的私人仲介的問題他就是當時候他就是採他們國家辦職聘所以他就是這樣的一個政策所以他去談的時候當然萊恩國"},{"start":318.845,"end":333.737,"text":"但是我們會參考,所以我跟委員報告,像我們現在針對家庭看護公那個一站式服務喔,就是參考韓國的,我們包括我們的一站式服務去接機﹚家是移工啦,那個事業移工是這個產業移工現在沒有"},{"start":335.419,"end":361.682,"text":"因為我們事先事辦,從家庭看護工開始。事辦很久了。沒有沒有沒有,一年多而已。我們去年在,我們去年1月才正式上路。可是部長是說要往這個方向做,還有那個韓國還有人力工程還追蹤移工的工作狀況。這個大家現在全世界各國在關心勞動權益,他會去了解他的適應狀況等等。所以我們,我基本上我不怪植病中心,因為目前是外包廠商嘛。"},{"start":362.082,"end":383.133,"text":"他們就是根據勞動部提出的合約需求去執行。那左邊這張圖是我去取得的勞動部委託執辦中心的計畫需求書。那你們對廠商的工作要求這個幾乎都只是代收、代轉文件,因為我會有畫紅線的地方。也就是勞動部一開始定位這個執聘中心其實只是一個收發中心。"},{"start":383.473,"end":411.128,"text":"我知道上次您不太同意但是我們有看到這些文字那我們並沒有賦予職聘中心這些任務包括這個選工、技能測驗、語言測驗以及關係移工的適應狀況那這個標案一年就七千多萬但是它的規模只有二十幾個員工那人數可能比仲介公司還要少那勞動部如果有心要做那這二十幾個人他沒有辦法負擔這麼龐大的業務你二十人怎麼服務七十幾萬人"},{"start":412.548,"end":439.399,"text":"所以是不是部長您認為要成立一個行政法人的這樣的一個機構來處理職聘的問題?這樣子報告委員因為我們的職聘是讓我們的僱主多一個選擇因為在臺灣的現在的狀況僱主他有他個人的考量對那我職聘跟各位報告職聘當然我要做我一定會把它做好讓他易於來使用所以我們也不斷在精進部長因為"},{"start":441.42,"end":457.9,"text":"那就是說這個方向我們現在還看不到嘛但是大概期許是往這個方向走我們會持續來進進那部長我再跟您談一下這個護理師勞動問題我在3月10日的質詢上也有跟您談到這個護理師加班費的質詢我不曉得部長還有沒有印象"},{"start":458.581,"end":481.962,"text":"但是部長您說有加班適時就要給加班費而且不滿意小部分要照比例給我上面有寫我們的這個詢答的內容而且每年都會針對這個超過這個過往違規紀錄不良的這個失業機構勞動單位來進行專案的這個檢查部長就是說當時我們的對話是這樣嗎您確認一下那但是我要告訴您是上個月19號"},{"start":483.743,"end":503.196,"text":"二十幾位護理師到台南市政府抗議因為陳大院長期人力不足這些護理師被迫加班、禁慾職者不好拒絕但是院方卻未依規定給他們加班費那有25名護理師他反映他的勞工超時工作他們嘗試自救而且自己擬定加班願書結果就被上級主管怎麼樣﹖把人調走了也就是說那個有問題沒辦法解決他就把提出問題解決掉了"},{"start":508.539,"end":536.966,"text":"那這個當護理師真的會生氣瘦創啊那甚至有懷孕後期的這個護理師他有9天的加班紀錄部長不好意思我讓你看一下這些處分的罰則台南市勞工局出來說他發現那個該院這個加班是以0.5小時計算他會進行裁處但是我們在勞動部的違反勞動法令事業單位的這個查詢系統根本看不到這個查處最輕的一筆留名在去年12月部長台南市勞工局可以公然說謊嗎"},{"start":538.127,"end":538.451,"text":"可以公然說謊嗎?"},{"start":540.826,"end":566.522,"text":"我們這個是兩個月公布一次但是護理室去申訴了再看一下這個罰則去年成大院沒給加班費、發發服務被罰一萬延長工時沒有給這個工資被罰五萬沒記載勞工出行行刑到分中被罰兩萬看到這個罰款的金額部長成大院他不是第一次違反勞基法而且這個我想說的是他是累犯2017、2019"},{"start":568.883,"end":579.571,"text":"國立大學醫院、副社醫院這樣子可以重新發落嗎?他們應該做比較帥範的做點範啊。我們在採樣基準啊。我們有採樣基準。兩萬以上、一百萬以下。結果就是罰兩萬啊。他是壘範罰兩萬罰最低的罰則。所以我覺得這樣不合理啊。部長您覺得合理嗎?"},{"start":593.661,"end":606.608,"text":"當然若是壘犯的話就是要加重啦。我想我最後的結論就是說勞動部跟地方主管機構要多站在勞工的權益去思考。我們一定會站在勞工的立場。"},{"start":609.389,"end":609.509,"text":"好,謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"151717","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151717","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15aff4c2ea2ff38079e44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed0884be6fd1f80153f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:14:14 - 09:17:33","影片長度":"00:03:19","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-17"},"duration":199,"end_time":"2024-04-25T09:17:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T09:14:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":1.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.008468750000002,"end":200.30346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.291,"end":28.172,"text":"有請時間三分鐘。好,這一個提案最主要是在說明就是參與秘密會議的一個規則。大家都知道我們在立法院有很多各式各樣的秘密會議。參與秘密會議的時候,他必須要簽保密協定。當然如果沒有辦法簽的話,照理說應該是不能夠參與秘密會議。所以這是一個非常簡單的規範。"},{"start":29.453,"end":50.245,"text":"但其實這樣的規範遠遠不足很重要的一個原因是因為目前我們任何的國家安全相關的法令都是在規定每一個部門他們的一個保密的義務但是大家卻可能沒有注意到立法委員能夠接觸的機密理論上是最多的如果說今天中國他滲透了譬如說陸委會的其中一個部門的某一個職員"},{"start":51.326,"end":71.903,"text":"那他就只能得到這一個部門相關的秘密資料但立法委員不一樣嘛因為立法委員可以跟各個單位去索資所以理論上他能夠得到的情報根據不同的議題是最全面的但是我們現在對於立法委員的這一個保密相關的規定呢其實是非常非常的鬆散所以呢除了在這個行為法"},{"start":73.584,"end":98.901,"text":"還有除了在職權行使法之外還有很多的小的這種規則其實都應該一併的修訂那非常遺憾的事情就是如果我們今天只是修訂這些規則那很多人還是不遵守或者用各式各樣的方式把這樣的秘密從這個機密會議代理的話還是能夠造成國安的危機所以非常重要的事情就是除了他的行為本身的規範之外他的接觸的對象其實也應該要規範"},{"start":100.302,"end":117.496,"text":"案,即是以中國黨政軍反滲透法所謂的滲透來源,如果今天立法委員跟這些人有接觸的時候,其實他應該予以規範。國人可能很擔心的是說,這樣的話立法委員以後是不是都沒有自由了?"},{"start":118.016,"end":137.301,"text":"見中國的這些黨政軍,難道見了以後都要被處罰嗎?顯然這樣的疑慮就表示對於這些相關的修正並沒有看清楚條文之前我們提出來相關的這個修正指的是說如果他今天遇到中國的黨政軍的狀況的時候他必須要揭露"},{"start":137.941,"end":137.961,"text":"案。"},{"start":157.685,"end":178.11,"text":"秘密會議本身的規範,還有他簽了之後到底能不能夠參與,到參與了之後,譬如說他不能夠操錄、錄音的設備甚至擴音的設備,因為我們有些委員講話很大聲,他大聲到窗戶外面都聽得到,那這樣的話也是可以把機密傳出去。然後再接下來是他去特定的國家以及他建"},{"start":178.55,"end":196.867,"text":"特定的人員這些全部都應該要一體的規範所以今天我們這一個提案只是所有的這些規範的一小部分那很遺憾的事情這整體的規範甚至有些是我提出的在程序委員會就被國民黨跟民眾黨聯手封殺所以呢我們並沒有辦法把完整的規範帶到這邊委員會討論甚感可惜那我發言到這邊謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151716","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151716","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15982806f154ed2423e44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed0a7eba39b12b3691e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:10:49 - 09:13:47","影片長度":"00:02:58","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-17"},"duration":178,"end_time":"2024-04-25T09:13:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T09:10:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.9422187500000001,"end":1.2122187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.44846875,"end":2.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.51471875,"end":32.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.03846875,"end":45.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.66096875,"end":66.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.00784375,"end":70.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.48409375,"end":72.00284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.12096875,"end":78.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.44471875,"end":80.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.77346875,"end":83.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.62971875000001,"end":90.80159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.97034375000001,"end":100.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.16284375000001,"end":110.30909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.47784375,"end":113.93721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.19034375000001,"end":118.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.37534375000001,"end":162.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.39784375000002,"end":178.18034375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.789,"end":1.931,"text":"時間三分鐘。"},{"start":9.534,"end":32.071,"text":"好謝謝主席那在場各位委員各位官員大家好那我們針對本條文是為了要推動我們國會改革強化國會的議員專業的這種立法問政的能力那提升優質民主代議事的形象強化我們資訊揭露落實秘密會議保密的機制"},{"start":33.132,"end":39.118,"text":"因應強化立法委員能夠行使法定職權行為的規範並健全其利益迴避的機制。"},{"start":45.908,"end":65.977,"text":"內容我們參酌公職人員選舉罷免法、公職人員利益衝突迴避法以及公務員服務法等相關法令就立法委員關係人的範圍界定秘密會議未遵守保密規定的法律效果兩岸交流的資訊透明化等事項"},{"start":67.345,"end":74.554,"text":"徵修規範以強化行使職權以利益迴避來建立優質的國會。當然這個內容實質的內容我們對於修正的這個內容"},{"start":81.84,"end":100.071,"text":"在第十條裡面參加這個秘密會議的立法委員以及列席的人員及本院的員工等均因竊竭這個保密協議並禁止攜帶任何的通訊產品進入,拒絕竊竊者不得參加秘密會議。"},{"start":101.252,"end":129.655,"text":"曾參加立法院秘密會議的立法委員其本人及其關係人於任期中或聘僱關係程序期間前往中國及港澳地區應向立法院報備並於網站公開其報備方式由立法院定之違反前兩項規定紀律委員會應立即調查必要時提報院會予以停權並移送司法機關來調查"},{"start":131.136,"end":148.099,"text":"我相信這個修訂本法是為了要確保我們立法院相關會議的內容不被洩密那也在此我們希望說能夠透過這個修法應該要確實來要求所有"},{"start":148.759,"end":177.897,"text":"出席相關會議的這些人員一定要落實本法這樣子才能夠確保我們國家的安全也能夠讓我們所有的會議在進行過程裡面不被這個內容這個暴露出去避免這個衍生不必要的這個問題所以我們這個賴瑞隆委員提案那我是這一次的這個本案的這個連署人希望這個本法能夠順利通過好以上"}]}},{"id":"151715","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151715","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce155a816a330b4c2130e44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed03e3ed5aee600c39c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"09:06:11 - 09:09:44","影片長度":"00:03:33","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-17"},"duration":213,"end_time":"2024-04-25T09:09:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T09:06:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.80284375,"end":3.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.29909375,"end":90.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.66221875000001,"end":213.17909375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.815,"end":2.976,"text":"時間三分鐘請"},{"start":12.718,"end":38.564,"text":"主席還有大家好其實這段時間擔任立法委員我就發現說我們立法委員真的還有蠻多的議事的一個程序跟規則除了說剛剛我們講前面我們在討論很熱烈的國會改革無法以外事實上很多的議事的一些規則那最近我有很多的體會所以我接下來都會做很多一些關於議事規則的一些"},{"start":39.924,"end":40.284,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":58.427,"end":79.954,"text":"那因為我自己經常到各種不同委員會去質詢那也包括總質詢的時候質詢的陳建仁院長我就發現我們這個立法委員真的好像小媳婦一樣為什麼呢我要資料那個要資料都有很困難然後連質詢台上去質詢經常就會遭到反質詢的一個所謂的干擾"},{"start":80.774,"end":86.325,"text":"那比方陳建能院長最常用的口頭禪就是當我們在講話的時候他就講說你不專業你這樣子是不正確你不科學對不對你是錯的對不對"},{"start":91.775,"end":113.065,"text":"委員問題都還沒出來就開始不斷地打斷干擾那過去我有跟幾個官員在質詢的過程當中也發現他就不斷地反問我問題啊明明是我問他他突然化身成立法委員反過來問我所以因此今天我們在這個修法的部分的話我希望能夠在那個職權行使法裡面的第25條"},{"start":114.426,"end":131.801,"text":"能夠增加所謂的質詢的答覆不得超過質詢範圍之外再加一句就是不得反質詢那如果說違反這個所謂的反質詢的這種狀況的話主席得予制止經制止無效就可以另起離開會場那這當然只是一個裁市的一個狀況比方舉個例子之前我們吳宗憲委員在這個質詢台上在質詢我們的準勞動部長何佩珊"},{"start":142.53,"end":171.361,"text":"他當時是行政院的副秘書長你就會發現一件事情就是今天吳宗憲委員在質詢的時候那何佩珊就是在答詢台上干擾那吳宗憲委員就說我不要再質詢你了可以請你下台連主席都裁示他下台他還霸著質詢台不走所以在凡此種種的一些意識的亂象我覺得都應該要在這一次我們新國會大家一起努力的來改正"},{"start":171.841,"end":183.506,"text":"案,因此我提出所謂的不得反質詢的修正案。當然一方面有三個目標,一個就是符合我們憲法上賦予立法委員質詢權,來捍衛我們的質詢權的一個行使。第二個就是能夠約束官員,能夠好好的來去"},{"start":192.57,"end":195.493,"text":"接受民意的監督,不要用反質詢來干擾議事。」"}]}},{"id":"151714","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151714","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15be98dcf7e3a6ef11e44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed0d6c50673e5555f625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"09:02:57 - 09:06:02","影片長度":"00:03:05","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-17"},"duration":185,"end_time":"2024-04-25T09:06:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T09:02:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.3472187500000001,"end":16.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.63596875,"end":25.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.86659375,"end":27.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.313468750000002,"end":36.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.93659375,"end":42.049718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.72471875,"end":44.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.71596875,"end":46.470968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.53846875,"end":47.399093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.52971875,"end":54.165968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.50346875,"end":56.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.84909375,"end":59.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.68409375,"end":74.14596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.85471875,"end":77.06534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.18346875,"end":78.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.22971875,"end":92.23596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.69159375000001,"end":94.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.10471875,"end":95.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.13409375,"end":97.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.35721875,"end":122.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.12159375,"end":123.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.96096875,"end":129.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.44534375,"end":130.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.71096875,"end":132.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.29721875,"end":133.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.64284375,"end":144.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.95346875,"end":148.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.64909375000002,"end":148.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.78409375,"end":152.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.28971875000002,"end":183.15846875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.149,"end":24.784,"text":"平衡改革。我想我們都知道去年的MeToo事件我跟我們很多的委員我們都投入性平三法的修法工作那修正的條文呢也在今年3月8號全數施行讓我們的校園、職場還有任何的場域的性騷擾防治調查跟懲處抱歉因為剛從教文簽到到現在還在傳"},{"start":26.345,"end":41.953,"text":"都能夠更加完善。」可是呢我卻發現我們立法院呢非常的諷刺我們自己立法但是卻是me too改革的一個漏洞因為性別平等工作法的規定中如果職場的性騷擾屬實僱主必須給予行為人適當的懲戒或是處理"},{"start":48.581,"end":73.893,"text":"但是性騷防治法也規定受害者可以向行為人所屬機關提出申訴行為人所屬機關應該調查並提供主管機關的處理建議可是因為立委跟立委之間不是僱傭關係也不是從屬關係所以如果立法委員出現了性騷擾或者性別歧視言行的話立法院無從約束也沒有調查的權限"},{"start":75.412,"end":93.557,"text":"立法院作為立委、還有助理、公務員、職工、記者、民間團體進出工作的職場,立委是裡面權力最大的,立法院缺乏一個自律機制,沒有辦法保護在立法院工作的相關人員,免於立委的性騷擾。"},{"start":99.4,"end":116.883,"text":"一、無權處理立委之間的性騷擾,真的是性騷擾防制的一大漏洞。事實上,過去立法院性騷擾跟性別歧視頻傳,比如說在國會殿堂有公然性騷擾,在一場攻防的時候把手伸進一行人的褲帶等。"},{"start":118.124,"end":143.701,"text":"為了補上這個漏洞,我的《立法委員行為法》在第七條增訂立法委員不得有性騷擾或性別歧視之言詞或行為若有違反者,送交立法院紀律委員會並由紀律委員會邀請有性別意識的調查專家外部專家進行調查,做成調查報告及處理建議"},{"start":145.451,"end":167.04,"text":"懲處方式包含口頭或書面報告,停止出席院會,停權一定時間等處分。我想立法委員作為立法的一個重要的機制跟代表,拒絕新遭立委是我們的責任,也是我們對全國人民應該做的,那更是國會改革不可或缺的一彎。"},{"start":167.8,"end":182.278,"text":"那謝謝司法法制委員會排審那希望我們能夠補上這個性騷跟性別平等的漏洞不再寬容立法院的性騷那也希望各黨跨黨派支持國會的性別改革法案謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151773","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151773","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15a445e28122fa8180c97d93183120460da707006be54a7e2b0d1eb0eeb46feded5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"11:07:24 - 11:25:26","影片長度":"00:18:02","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":1082,"end_time":"2024-04-25T11:25:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T11:07:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":687,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（11時7分）主席、各位，大家午安，是不是請許部長？"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：林委員好。"],["林委員淑芬：部長好。就業服務法第一條明文規定、開宗明義宣示是為了促進國民就業，以增進社會及經濟發展。我們知道那個時代的時空背景，30年前我們開放外勞的時候，對於引進外籍移工，希望做產業結構上的調整，因為怕受到衝擊，所以當然要有就業輔導、就業促進這樣的一個機制，當時的時空背景是這樣產出的，可是外籍移工到現在人數已經來到7、80萬人……"],["許部長銘春：75萬。"],["林委員淑芬：對，75萬。在這種狀況下，我們的確要好好檢視上路30年的就業服務法有什麼結構性的問題要處理。我們先從現行的法律來看，第一個，雖然是就服法，但內容卻是以外國人的聘僱與管理的篇幅最多，大概有22個條文，排除了總則和罰則以外，管理外籍移工的聘僱和管理有22條，公私立就業服務機構的設置和管理有17條，就是為了管理外籍移工所設的仲介機構，但是促進就業、就業促進的篇幅在裡面反而是最少的，只有13條，所以一般外界都認為就服法就等同於跨國勞動力的管理法，而對於就業促進的著墨太少。另一方面，我們說這雖然是跨國勞動力的管理法，但有關外國勞動力的部分，一直有很多衍生性的問題，包括就業服務機構、仲介剝削移工的問題，然後也遭到移工團體抨擊這是一部反公共、反自由、反平等的法案，所以我們今天在這裡就依據你們的書面報告來檢視就服法翻修的歷程。","你看整部法律到底是什麼？在修法的程序裡面，還是以外國人聘僱和管理這部分的修法次數最多，三十年來高達十六次的修法，但是就業促進的修法只有五次，弱勢就業的修法三次，將二度就業婦女等六類人員納為特定對象，也就是弱勢就業，這三次是為了納入弱勢就業，但是禁止就業歧視的部分也修了四次，禁止就業歧視就是擴大就業歧視所禁止的範圍。我們要問部長的是，這整個法律的架構是否符合就業服務法第一條的立法意旨──我們要促進就業？在立法的體系上，你又要如何強化促進就業的角色和功能？大家今天問了很多次，有沒有討論到或有沒有考慮到讓促進就業跟外國勞動力脫鉤、兩個法就直接分開？因為兩件事情的確分屬不同領域，而且以跨國勞動力的管理來講，真的是很複雜，也很需要很多的大幅修正。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我的確覺得就整部就業服務法來看，本、外國勞工的規範的確是失衡，再加上現在的移工人數越來越多，我是認為未來跨國勞動力管理的規範，事實上可以朝向專法的方式讓它脫鉤來處理會比較好。"],["林委員淑芬：脫鉤、專法、單獨立法。"],["許部長銘春：對，經過這三十年的演變，不管是本國勞工、外籍勞工，我們都可以去做比較整體、完整的規劃，各自在不同的專法裡面去把它做更完善的規定。"],["林委員淑芬：是，但我今天是說在強化促進就業的角色和功能裡面，就這十三條而言，其實未來如果要脫鉤也一樣，這裡面有十三條條文，主要是第二十三條針對減班、休息、僱傭、安定措施，還有第二十四條的弱勢就業對象訂出了他的就業計畫，發給津貼和補助金，但是我現在要跟你分享，第一個就是我們針對特定弱勢對象以身分去分類，這樣子的就業促進政策和對策，到底是不是妥當的？現在就是以獨立負擔家計者、中高齡者、身心障礙者、原住民等等去檢視他的身分，然後看他是否仍然具備高就業力，問題是就身分別去給他擬定計畫，然後發給津貼，這樣是不是恰當？因為針對促進就業，可能更需要檢視的指標是失業的衝擊對於失業的個人、失業時間的長短、失業期間，是不是比他的身分別這種指標還更重要？你失業多久了，我要給你多少的量身定製讓你有促進就業的計畫，我的津貼要怎麼給付，而不是說你是什麼身分。所以失業期間到底是三個月的，還是六個月、九個月、十二個月以上，我們要提供不同深度的就業諮詢和就業促進的措施。","第二個是就業促進的職業訓練津貼，你們的職業訓練津貼也是以身分區別你到底是中高齡的還是身心障礙的，以此做為請領的年限，只有身心障礙者可以高達最長一年的請領職業訓練生活津貼，其他身分別大概是六個月。我今天要討論的是，以身分別來給他促進就業計畫和給他津貼，到底是不是最妥當的？光是以身分別來看，每個人都只能領六個月，身心障礙者可以領到十二個月，到底六個月和十二個月的標準差異在哪裡？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，當初的立法或者說這些計畫用身分別去考量，可能是針對不同的屬性，針對他的需求去做一些規範，但我覺得剛剛您講的也是有道理，我覺得未來這個部分我們會再重新檢視，在新的規範裡面去做一個比較充分的盤點以後……"],["林委員淑芬：應該要了，三十年了，當然這個修法沒那麼久，但是我們也擔心用身分別去保障促進就業的津貼，恐怕也會排除了真正需要的勞工，為什麼呢？因為以身分別會排除的例子，就是像你現在提的二度就業婦女的再就業計畫，這個裡面看起來好像要照顧因為家庭需求而中斷職涯的婦女，但是現在社會很多元啦，一個單親家庭的父親，他因為照顧家庭，或者說即便是雙親，現在也流行是爸爸在家照顧小孩的也有，就是男性因為照顧家庭而中斷職涯，他就沒有納在這裡面，他就沒有辦法請領你們的這一個津貼了。我們看到你們鑑於弱勢的就業對象多元，雖然母法沒有明列，但是你們核定計畫還是用身分別在核定，依照身分別去給人家促進就業的協助。可是我剛剛講的那個例子，你就排除了真正需要的。以你們的促進特定對象及弱勢者就業補助作業要點，在這個裡面你們還不斷地在擴充，甚至擴充到施用毒品者、脆弱家庭、危機家庭、犯罪被害人、人口販運被害人或疑似被害人、遊民等等，其實那些都已經不在母法第二十四條所列舉的身分裡面了，即使沒有母法的依據，你們還是不斷地用你們的辦法在擴充，當然也不是說不可以，但我們要講的是你也要於法有據啊，用身分別的問題是不是已經可以檢討了？而你們在補助要點裡面還在擴充，在這種狀況之下，真的是要檢討了，整部法三十年了，要好好的檢討了。","我們現在還要再回歸到這個法裡面最多的就是跨國勞動力管理的問題，一直在講就業跟人權，外國勞動力單獨立法你剛剛說也是一個時機，你應該也支持嘛！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["林委員淑芬：以人權保障為核心的包容性的外國勞動力政策，要從就服法裡面抽離單獨立法，但是就我們目前既有的法律裡面，還是有很多人家認為直接歧視的條款，比如家事勞動欠缺勞動條件保障，移工被排除部分的社會保障，以及僱用型態所衍生的風險和人權侵害，移工的管理制度遭非營利組織詬病涉及人口販運，未來你們有一個部分要修正，就是針對第四十一條有一個修法，你們要加重罰責，改採每個人頭罰款的方式。"],["許部長銘春：非法僱用、非法仲介。"],["林委員淑芬：對，那你們要去強化雇主和私立就業服務機構的管理責任，但第四十一條的修法是要管理國外的仲介公司，是國外的嘛！"],["許部長銘春：沒有，是國內。就是我們國內的雇主要非法聘用這些失聯移工或國內的仲介公司……"],["林委員淑芬：沒有，你們是要納管，我現在講的是法案還在院裡面……"],["許部長銘春：對，還在行政院。"],["林委員淑芬：還沒有出來。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["林委員淑芬：你們未來要將國外的人力仲介公司納管，這件事你們是列入了考慮嘛！但我們現在講的是，現行管理國內仲介，你們都沒有辦法杜絕剝削的情事，然後你們現在講說對於改革上，還要再納入國外人力仲介公司的納管……"],["許部長銘春：沒有，我們……"],["林委員淑芬：怎麼會沒有？你們要修第四十一條之一啊！"],["許部長銘春：我們那個不是針對本國的嗎？針對本國仲介。"],["林委員淑芬：本國仲介？但是本國仲介以外，你們也要納管國外仲介啊！"],["許部長銘春：針對國外仲介是針對失聯的部分，如果是針對失聯率，我們未來就是在雙邊的談判裡面……"],["林委員淑芬：你們現在有一條要納管……"],["許部長銘春：那個不是……"],["林委員淑芬：好，我現在就跟你講，其實我之前跟你講21世紀貿易倡議，還有現在歐美整個市場上對於環境勞工議題上很嚴格地把關以外，還有一個RBA的稽核，你知道RBA稽核的概念？"],["許部長銘春：我知道。"],["林委員淑芬：RBA他們要採取的是，尤其是電子產品要採取最高的社會環境和道德標準，確保勞工得到善待，是最高的喔！所以電子產品的企業社會責任聯盟已經跑在我們整個國家或國際規範的最前面了，而我們在這種時間，時機也已經到了，到了一個我們對於勞工環境的議題，所以媒體已經有披露說臺灣也將要禁止強迫勞動商品輸入，行政院初步決議，要由內政部修人口販運法，禁止強迫勞動產品輸入，而且這個強迫勞動產品要由勞動部去認定、海關去執行，那請問你，你要如何執行強迫勞動產品的認定？你們要怎麼認定？"],["許部長銘春：行政院都還在……就是說大概大原則是這樣，後續還有一些討論啦！"],["林委員淑芬：討論很多次了，新聞都露出了，我國擬跟進禁止強迫勞動產品進出口。所以今天很多人在問你印度勞工引進的事情，我們看到禁止強迫勞動產品輸入，可是我們也有輸出的風險，我們也有一些風險，所以現在很多企業都要求你們可以提印度移工的輸入裡面要國對國的引進，印度移工國對國的引進，可是我現在就問你最後一個問題好了，印度移工的直聘，國對國的直聘有這麼難嗎？你們的MOU簽的是在現有的制度下，雙方推動國對國聘僱，請問這個到底是國對國聘僱，還是現有制度裡面的仲介引入這個路徑也可以？到底是單軌還是雙軌？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，我們現在現行的還是……"],["林委員淑芬：我剛剛講的是我們MOU簽訂的內容。"],["許部長銘春：對，我們未來在工作層級會議裡面，我們會希望以國對國來引進作為優先。"],["林委員淑芬：作為優先？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["林委員淑芬：因為你們MOU就是寫說在現有的制度下，現有是雙軌了嘛！"],["許部長銘春：雙軌，對。"],["林委員淑芬：但是你們下面又寫一個雙方推動國對國聘僱，所以是有優先？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["林委員淑芬：因為我們知道說……為什麼講RBA還有國際市場的要求，還有對強迫勞動商品的輸入輸出，我們的電子產品的輸出都是一樣，所以才有我們電子產品的半導體廠商，他們已經要用零付費的方式去買工了嘛！就是去引進，所以有企業的需求，整個社會的架構已經來到一個允許你在這個印度引進模式裡面，真的要好好地單軌、國對國的模式去聘僱，這是最好的契機，也是剛好符合我們這個時代現在的需求，而且你知道經濟部已經定了一個臺灣供應鏈企業尊重人權指引，你知道嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我有這個印象。"],["林委員淑芬：經濟部已經定了一個臺灣供應鏈的企業尊重人權指引，如果它再更進一階叫做供應鏈責任法，有人在講說你們應該定出供應鏈責任法，要人權責任法，所以這個就是代表說你對移工的政策也到了一個很大的進展是需要勇敢地邁向政府要扛起責任的時代，否則的話，再用那種雙軌，然後再交給仲介，我想我們的企業會失去競爭力，甚至會遭受到抵制。我們現在講我們禁止剝削勞動力的產品輸入，講的是新疆棉，可是未來整個RBA的檢視，它告訴你說你這個企業不符合這個或涉及到強迫勞動，這對我們國家企業的形象傷害很大的時候，我們產品輸出也是有可能會產生問題，刻不容緩，已經是要國對國引進的時代了，剛好就業服務法裡面，我們也認為促進國民就業跟跨國移工的管理政策要脫鉤，要變成兩部法，要單獨專法了。雖然你要離開了，不過我們也是希望你可以反映，讓政策延續下去。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["林委員淑芬：好，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林淑芬委員。現在作以下宣告：等一下在洪孟楷委員質詢完畢處理臨時提案一案。","現在請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.054718750000003,"end":14.509718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.69471875,"end":55.330343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.49909375,"end":187.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.63221875,"end":68.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.45721875,"end":217.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.41471875000002,"end":242.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.54159375,"end":250.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.67534375000002,"end":252.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.12221875000003,"end":257.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.25221875,"end":259.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.92284375,"end":266.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.52534375,"end":268.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.99346875000003,"end":267.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.63471875,"end":283.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.76721875000004,"end":345.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.31034375,"end":429.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.92159375,"end":430.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":431.49096875000004,"end":439.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.06784375,"end":444.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.63659375000003,"end":454.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.59721875,"end":521.0803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.20471875000004,"end":454.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.2322187500001,"end":542.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":542.68034375,"end":570.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":570.96284375,"end":588.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":588.25971875,"end":592.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.5290937500001,"end":601.6922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.9622187500001,"end":609.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":610.1128437500001,"end":610.3490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.1928437500001,"end":663.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.9272187500001,"end":664.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":663.9440937500001,"end":664.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.60221875,"end":666.2053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":665.1928437500001,"end":665.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":666.72846875,"end":672.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.12909375,"end":668.1965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.24721875,"end":668.4497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":672.76971875,"end":681.8315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.8315937500001,"end":682.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":683.1984687500001,"end":689.8134687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":688.9865937500001,"end":699.2634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.10409375,"end":694.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":694.80846875,"end":695.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":699.7865937500001,"end":702.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":703.1784687500001,"end":720.9140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":719.9353437500001,"end":720.3740937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":721.26846875,"end":721.96034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":722.7534687500001,"end":723.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":723.5803437500001,"end":726.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.04846875,"end":726.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":726.8034687500001,"end":729.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":729.11534375,"end":730.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":730.56659375,"end":732.1359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":730.71846875,"end":731.1572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":731.5959687500001,"end":731.8997187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.91221875,"end":736.4053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":733.4353437500001,"end":734.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":736.84409375,"end":744.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":743.3915937500001,"end":779.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":746.3447187500001,"end":746.6653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":762.88221875,"end":763.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":778.64346875,"end":779.0147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":780.49971875,"end":802.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":802.79159375,"end":821.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":823.46346875,"end":825.2690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":825.2690937500001,"end":825.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":825.64034375,"end":825.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":825.6572187500001,"end":825.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":825.87659375,"end":825.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":825.9778437500001,"end":826.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":826.02846875,"end":826.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":826.28159375,"end":826.3828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":826.7878437500001,"end":826.9228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":826.9228437500001,"end":826.9734687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":826.9734687500002,"end":827.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":827.02409375,"end":827.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":827.96909375,"end":828.0365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":828.0365937500001,"end":828.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":828.96471875,"end":829.0322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":829.0322187500001,"end":829.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":829.97721875,"end":830.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":830.0278437500001,"end":831.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":832.1709687500002,"end":850.9865937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":852.06659375,"end":884.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":885.10784375,"end":895.8572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":895.8572187500001,"end":895.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":896.1103437500001,"end":897.2578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":897.47721875,"end":900.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":901.3078437500001,"end":911.3484687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":901.3247187500001,"end":903.4172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":911.6015937500001,"end":911.6184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":911.6184687500001,"end":911.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":911.63534375,"end":911.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":911.70284375,"end":911.7197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":911.7197187500001,"end":911.9053437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":911.9053437500002,"end":912.0065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":912.0065937500001,"end":912.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":912.0234687500001,"end":912.1415937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":912.1415937500001,"end":912.8672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":912.76596875,"end":987.9272187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":918.58784375,"end":919.7859687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":989.04096875,"end":990.6609687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":990.6609687500002,"end":1006.5403437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1006.57409375,"end":1018.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1019.0278437500001,"end":1036.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1036.6284687500001,"end":1046.2134687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1046.5172187500002,"end":1047.0572187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1047.3103437500001,"end":1051.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1051.2759687500002,"end":1072.5047187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1072.3865937500002,"end":1072.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1072.5047187500002,"end":1072.9097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1072.9265937500002,"end":1079.2884687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1078.4278437500002,"end":1079.2378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1080.01409375,"end":1081.9378437500002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.109,"end":14.134,"text":"主席,各位大家午安。是不是還請我們許部長?請許部長"},{"start":18.757,"end":36.79,"text":"林委員好部長好我們促進就業服務法第一條明文規定第一個開宗就明義就宣誓是為了促進國民就業還有以增進社會及經濟發展在這種狀況裡面我們知道那個時候時代的時空背景三十年前我們開放外勞的時候"},{"start":37.711,"end":54.448,"text":"對於這個引進外籍移工那希望做一個產業結構上的調整那因為有怕受到衝擊所以我們當然要有這個就業輔導就業促進這樣的一個機制而當時的時空背景是這樣產出的可是這樣外籍移工到現在"},{"start":55.649,"end":82.81,"text":"人數已經來到了七八十萬了七十五萬對七八十萬、七十五萬在這種狀況裡面我們的確要好好的檢視今天這個就業服務法上路三十年了這個法律裡面有什麼結構性的問題要處理那我們先從它的這個現行的法律來看第一個就是說雖然是就服法但是裡面卻是以外國人的聘僱與管理的篇幅最多大概有22個條文"},{"start":85.152,"end":114.134,"text":"排除了這個總則和法則以外管理外籍移工的聘僱和管理的有22條公司立就業服務機構設置和管理的有17條其實也是為了管理外籍移工所設的這個中介這個機關機構的這個管理但是以促進就業就業促進的偏扶反而在裡面是最少的只有13條所以一般我們外界都認為說就服法就等同於"},{"start":114.654,"end":132.649,"text":"跨國勞動力的管理法一般都會著墨於說我們對於就業促進的這個著墨太少了所以呢另一方面我們就講說那雖然是一個跨國勞動力的管理法但是有關外國勞動力的部分"},{"start":133.129,"end":155.035,"text":"一直有很多衍生性的問題包括這個就業服務機構、仲介剝削移工的問題然後也招移工團體去抨擊說這是一部反公共、反自由、反平等的法案所以我們今天在這裡就依據你們的書面報告來檢視救福法翻修的歷程你看整部法律到底是什麼"},{"start":155.495,"end":178.842,"text":"在翻修在修法的程序裡面還是以外國人聘顧案管理部分這部分的修法次數最多高達了30年來高達了16次的修法但是以就業促進的修法只有5次然後弱勢就業的修法3次然後兩度二度就業婦女的這一種6類人員那"},{"start":181.647,"end":184.938,"text":"納為這個特定對象就是弱勢就業這三次是為了納入這個這個弱勢就業"},{"start":188.493,"end":216.881,"text":"但是呢禁止就業歧視的也修了4次那這個他禁止這個就就業歧視就擴大這個就業歧視所禁止的範圍所以我們要問部長就是說這個整個法規的法律的架構是否符合就業服務法第一條的立法的意旨我們要這個促進就業在立法的體系上那你又要如何強化促進就業的角色和功能"},{"start":217.461,"end":224.304,"text":"那大家今天問了很多次說那有沒有討論到說有沒有考慮到讓促進就業跟這個外國勞動力這個脫鉤兩個法就直接分開因為兩件事情的確是分屬不同領域而且以這個跨國勞動力的管理來講真的是很複雜也很需要大幅的很多的修正這樣子"},{"start":242.694,"end":264.691,"text":"報告委,我的確覺得說就整部就業服務法來看本外國勞工的規範的確是失衡那再加上說其實現在的外這個移工人數越來越多我是認為未來這個跨國勞動力的管理的規範事實上是可以朝向專法的方式讓他脫鉤來處理"},{"start":268.554,"end":282.405,"text":"對,那我們也可以再做,經過這30年的演變可能各自不管是本國勞工、外籍勞工我們都可以去做比較整體、完整的規劃各自在不同的專法裡面去把它做更完善的規定"},{"start":283.88,"end":287.083,"text":"是但我今天在講說加強強化這個促進就業的這個繳算功能裡面我們這13條裡面其實未來如果要脫鉤也一樣這13條裡面有13條的條文那主要是第23條針對了檢"},{"start":302.636,"end":320.037,"text":"檢辦休息僱用安定措施還有第24條的這個弱勢就業這個對象定出了他的就業計畫發給津貼和補助金但是我現在跟你分享第一個就是我們針對特定弱勢對象以身份去分類"},{"start":321.758,"end":342.064,"text":"這樣子的就業促進的政策和對策到底是不是妥當的因為我們現在說以獨立這個負擔家計者、中高齡者、身心障礙者、原住民等等去檢視他的身份然後看他是否仍然具備有高就業率然後檢視問題是問題是這個身份"},{"start":345.485,"end":358.329,"text":"就身分別去給他這個擬定計畫然後做出津貼這樣是不是恰當因為我們來促進就業可能更需要檢視的指標是這個失業的衝擊對失業的這個個人失業時間的長短失業期間是不是比他的身分別這種指標還更重要"},{"start":369.813,"end":385.764,"text":"你失業多久了?我要給你多少的量身訂製讓你有促進就業的計畫?我的經驗要怎麼給付?而不是說你是什麼身份這樣子所以失業期間到你三個月的還是六個月、九個月、十二個月以上我們要提供不同深度的就業諮詢和就業促進的措施"},{"start":388.146,"end":416.305,"text":"那第二個就業促進的職業訓練津貼你們這個職業訓練津貼也是以身分分別你到底是中高齡的還是身心障礙的你作為勤領的年限那只有身心障礙者可以高達這個最長一年的勤領職業訓練的生活津貼那其他身分別大概是六個月那我今天要討論這個是說到底身分別來給他促進就業計畫和給他津貼到底是不是最妥當的"},{"start":418.266,"end":429.663,"text":"那以像這個身分別光是身分別來看每個都只能領6個月身心障礙可以領到12個月這個6個月和12個月的標準的差異在哪裡啊"},{"start":432.034,"end":452.255,"text":"對報告委員當然當初的立法或者說這些計畫用身份別可能有他的考量他可能針對說他有不同的屬性去針對他的需求去做一些規範但我覺得啦剛剛您講的也是有道理我覺得未來這個部分我們再重新再檢視在新的規範裡面去做一個比較充分的"},{"start":453.036,"end":478.529,"text":"也應該要了,到30年了當然這個修法沒那麼久但是就是說我們也擔心用身分別去促進就業的進展去保障就業促進的這個進展恐怕也會排除了真正的需要的勞工為什麼呢?因為以身分別這個會排除的例子就是像你現在提的二度就業婦女的再就業計畫"},{"start":479.87,"end":497.995,"text":"你們這個裡面好像看起來像要照顧因為家庭需求而中斷職涯的婦女但是也有現在社會很多元啦又單親的父親就單親家庭的父親他因為照顧家庭或者是說即便是雙親那現在也流行說是"},{"start":502.056,"end":504.179,"text":"所以我們看到你們介於弱勢的就業對象多元"},{"start":521.44,"end":541.68,"text":"而雖然母法沒有名列啦但是你們核定計畫還是用身分別在核定那你們就依照身分別還是用身分別去給人家這個促進就業的協助可是我剛剛講那個例子你就排除了真正需要的所以你們的促進特定對象及弱勢者就業"},{"start":543.221,"end":569.907,"text":"補助作業要點那你們在這種裡面你們還不斷的在擴充其實擴充到適用毒品者、脆弱家庭者然後危機家庭、犯罪被害人、人口犯孕被害人或疑似被害人、遊民等等其實那個都已經不在母法24條裡面所列舉的身份裡面了你們還是不斷的用你們的辦法沒有母法的依據裡面用你們的辦法在擴充但我們也不是說不"},{"start":571.447,"end":589.793,"text":"但是我們在講是你也要依法有據啊用身分別的問題是不是最好的已經是到可以檢討了而你們在這個補助要點裡面還在擴充所以在這種狀況裡面真的是要整部法三十年了要好好的檢討了"},{"start":591.013,"end":609.188,"text":"但是呢我們現在還要再回歸到這個法裡面最多的就是外籍跨國勞動力的這個管理的問題一直在講就業跟人權外國勞動力這個單獨立法你剛剛講說也是一個時機是應該你也支持嗎是"},{"start":611.243,"end":628.785,"text":"但是呢以人權保障為核心的包容性的外國勞動力政策要從這個救福法裡面抽離單獨立法但是我們目前就目前的既有的法律裡面還是很多有人家認為是直接歧視的條款"},{"start":629.946,"end":653.565,"text":"比如說家事勞動欠缺、勞動條件保障、移工被排除在部分的社會保障以及僱用形態所衍生的風險和人權侵害、移工的管理制度遭非營利組織購併涉及人口販運但是你們在未來裡面有一個要修正的就是說你們要加重在這個"},{"start":655.226,"end":682.014,"text":"第41條有一個修法嘛你們要加重處罰則改採每個人頭罰款的方式非法僱用非法仲介對仲介那你們要去強化僱主案私立就業服務機構的管理責任但是你們這個是要管理的41條的修法是要管理國外的仲介公司啊國外的國外的嘛沒有國內"},{"start":683.294,"end":701.451,"text":"就是非法,我們的國內的僱主要非法聘用這些失聯義工或國內的仲介公司沒有你們是要納管我現在講是你們法案還在你們院裡面還沒有出來你們未來要將國外的人力仲介公司納管這件事你們是列入了考慮嗎?"},{"start":703.237,"end":729.873,"text":"但我們現在講的是說現行管理國內仲介你們都沒有辦法杜絕剝削的情勢然後你們現在講說你們對於這個這個改革上你們還要再納入這個國外人力仲介公司的納管所以這是我們怎麼會沒有你們要修41支1條啊本國仲介"},{"start":733.131,"end":736.251,"text":"對啦但是本國仲介以外你們要納管國外仲介啊"},{"start":736.874,"end":746.498,"text":"我們針對國外中間是針對失聯如果失聯率我們未來就是在那個雙邊的那個談判裡面你們現在有一條要納管你們好我現在就跟你講說其實我們剛剛我之前跟你講21世紀的經貿協議還有現在歐美歐美整個市場上對於環境勞工議題上很嚴格的把關以外還有一個RBA的集合你知道RBA的集合的概念"},{"start":763.965,"end":776.811,"text":"RBA他們要採取的是﹐尤其是電子產品要採取最高的社會環境和道德標準確保勞工得到善待是最高的喔所以電子產品的企業社會責任聯盟"},{"start":780.84,"end":800.369,"text":"這個已經是跑在我們整個國家或國際的規範的最前面了而我們在這種時間時機也已經到了到了一個說我們對於勞工環境的議題所以媒體已經有披露到說台灣也要將禁止強迫勞動商品輸入這個"},{"start":803.31,"end":820.821,"text":"行政院初步決議要由內政部修人口販運法禁止強迫勞動產品輸入而且這個強迫勞動產品要由給勞動部去認定海關去執行那請問你要如何執行強迫勞動產品的認定你們要怎麼認定這個行政院都還在就是說大概大原則是這樣但後續還有一些討論"},{"start":832.516,"end":849.49,"text":"討論很多次了這個新聞都露出了我國你跟禁止強迫勞動產品這個禁出口禁出口所以今天很多人在問你印度勞工引進的事情我們看來就是說禁止強迫勞動產品輸入可是我們也有輸出的這個"},{"start":853.431,"end":870.048,"text":"所以現在很多企業都要求你們可以提印度移工的這個輸入裡面要國對國的引進嘛印度移工國對國的引進可是我現在就問你最後一個問題好了就是說"},{"start":873.251,"end":895.169,"text":"這個印度移工的職聘、國對國的職聘有這麼難嗎?你們的MOU簽的是在現有的制度下雙方推動國對國聘僱請問這個到底是國對國聘僱還是現有制度裡面的這個仲介引入這個路徑也可以?到底是單軌還是雙軌?報告委員我們現在現行的就是還是"},{"start":901.397,"end":918.933,"text":"我剛剛講是你們的MOU簽訂的內容對 我們未來在工作層級會議裡面我們會希望以國對國來引進作為優先啦作為優先因為你們MOU就是寫說在現有的制度下現有是雙軌了嘛對 雙軌 對"},{"start":920.074,"end":921.896,"text":"但是你們下面有寫一個雙方推動國對國聘僱是所以是有優先對因為我們知道說為什麼講這個這個RBA還有這個國際市場的要求還有對強迫勞動商品的輸入輸出"},{"start":937.128,"end":940.272,"text":"我們的電子產品的輸出都是一樣所以才有我們電子產品的這個半導體廠商他們要已經要用零付費的這個方式去買工了嘛就引進啦去引進啦所以這有企業的需求不是我說"},{"start":956.131,"end":977.139,"text":"整個社會的架構已經來到一個允許你在這一個印度引進模式裡面真的要好好的單軌國對國的模式然後去聘僱啦這是最好的契機也是剛好符合我們這個時代現在的需求而且我們"},{"start":978.519,"end":986.993,"text":"你知道經濟部已經訂了一個產業鏈的台灣供應鏈企業尊重人權指引你知道嗎經濟部"},{"start":989.424,"end":1018.331,"text":"我有這個印象經濟部已經訂了一個台灣供應鏈的企業尊重人權指引如果他再更進一階叫做供應鏈責任法有人在講說你們應該訂出供應鏈的責任法要人權責任法所以這個就是代表說你對於移工的政策也到了一個很大的這個進展是需要勇敢的要邁向政府要扛起責任的時代了"},{"start":1019.11,"end":1033.657,"text":"否則的話再用那種雙軌然後再交給仲介我想我們的企業會失去這個競爭力甚至會遭受到抵制我們現在講我們禁止剝削勞動力的產品輸入講的是新疆棉可是未來整個RBA的檢視他告訴你說你這個企業不符合這個或是涉及到強迫勞動"},{"start":1047.865,"end":1067.963,"text":"這個對我們國家的企業的形象傷害很大的時候我們也是有可能產品輸出也是會產生問題啊克不容緩已經是要國對國要引進的時代了那剛好就業服務法裡面我們也認為促進國營就業跟這個跨國移工的管理政策要脫鉤啊兩部要變成兩部法要單獨專法了啦"},{"start":1073.167,"end":1081.361,"text":"所以你要離開了不過我們也是希望你可以反映讓政策延續下去是好謝謝好謝謝林淑芬委員"}]}},{"id":"151772","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151772","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce1577d07a3278621967c97d93183120460da707006be54a7e2b016580a9b45654d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:25:35 - 11:34:27","影片長度":"00:08:52","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":532,"end_time":"2024-04-25T11:34:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T11:25:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":741,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時25分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好，延續著上一次質詢的主題，也就是蔡英文總統這8年來對勞工所做的六大承諾實踐的狀況。2016年1月8號的時候，蔡總統在電視政見會上說：我不會拿勞工朋友的權益在選舉時候開空頭支票做政治操作。這句話說得非常好，政見開出來是拿來履行的，不是拿來騙票的，更不是做選舉操作的。因此我們上次回顧了有關於薪資要增加、工時要減少這兩項勞工朋友最關心的議題之後，我們今天進入第三項，也就是針對非典勞力的部分，我們來看一下蔡總統怎麼說的，我們要走向一個進步的社會，就必須要立法保護非典型的勞工，首先要訂定派遣勞動專法，我們派遣勞動專法定了嗎？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，沒有定專法，但是我們……"],["黃委員國昌：這樣子蔡總統有沒有跳票？"],["許部長銘春：對，但我們把一些派遣……"],["黃委員國昌：請你回答問題，這樣有沒有跳票？"],["許部長銘春：沒有，報告委員，我們沒有定專法啦！但是我們有把一些勞工派遣勞動權益最重要的條文，我們有讓它入法。"],["黃委員國昌：所以你覺得夠了嗎？"],["許部長銘春：當然……"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得夠了嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我們認為務實中追求理想啦！當然還不夠，但是會持續努力。"],["黃委員國昌：第一個、承諾要定專法，跳票。第二個、你說的把東西放進去，你承認還不夠。第三個、要訂定部分工時勞工保護的相關立法，有做嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我們定型契約跟相關的注意事項的部分都有做一些規範，然後是……"],["黃委員國昌：你覺得現在對於部分工時勞工保護做得夠嗎？"],["許部長銘春：其實部分工時的部分，它的規定跟勞基法是一樣的，但是我們用算是另外一個要點，讓它能夠……"],["黃委員國昌：用要點來處理喔？蛤？來嘛！我就一樣一樣，實事求是，我從來不跟你談抽象的問題，訂定勞動派遣專法，沒有定；訂定部分工時勞工保護的相關立法，也沒有立。我們進一步去看，蔡英文跳票連監察院都看不下去了，這個是2019年監察院所提出來的報告，這個是通案性案件調查研究報告，在這個報告裡面，它就明白地講，政府沒有直接針對派遣勞工保護法召開協商會議，改朝向行政指導、行政措施，與蔡英文總統所揭櫫訂定派遣勞動專法相悖，這個是監察院的調查報告，這不是我講的，所以我才說連監察院都看不下去了。部分工時的部分也是一樣，監察院在調查報告的時候也講得很清楚了，它說部分工時的勞工在勞動關係當中處於相對的弱勢，然後你剛剛所講的注意事項，又只有具有行政指導的性質，沒有辦法落實相關權益的保障。對於監察院這樣子的批評，部長，你接不接受？"],["許部長銘春：我們當然對於監察院的批評，我們接受指教，不過……"],["黃委員國昌：接受指教完了以後做了什麼？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，但是因為像部分工時的這個雖然它是一個要點，但是它其實在要點裡面還是有強調就是要適用到勞基法，作為它規範的保障。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了啦！八年前提出來的承諾到今天檢驗，實際上還是跳票，勞動部要有一個態度、勞動部要有一個態度，這些都是具體開出來的政見，這不是騙票耶！這也不應該做選舉操作，這個是蔡總統說的。我們來看一下，部分工時的勞工沒有特休假的比例是變高還是變低？這是你們的調查報告，如果按照你剛剛所講的，要適用勞基法、要落實，那不對啊！怎麼會沒有特休假的比例愈來愈高呢？這不是落實，這是愈來愈糟糕、這是惡化，這是你們勞動部部分工時勞工就業實況調查報告，部長。"],["許部長銘春：這個我們會來加強勞檢，這個應該……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你剛剛講的不對，你說要適用勞基法、要落實啊！現實上就沒有，我有說錯嗎？"],["許部長銘春：所以這個部分我們會再強化……"],["黃委員國昌：繼續檢討嘛！"],["許部長銘春：繼續檢討。"],["黃委員國昌：第四個保障，「目前臺灣工會的涵蓋率相當低，我認為要逐漸提高工會的涵蓋率，修改工會法不合時宜的限制，促進工會組織真正的自由化。」這件事情有做到嗎？"],["許部長銘春：當然整個涵蓋率還沒有達到理想，我覺得這部分應該持續再努力。"],["黃委員國昌：還沒有達到理想，持續要努力。部長，你真的非常會講官話，抽象的空話非常會講。我們來看一下，央行2023年一直在檢討一件事，跟我所提出薪資要增加的訴求直接相關，因為我們受僱者報酬在GDP的比例上，過去這幾年是逐漸惡化，愈來愈糟糕。我在這個系列質詢的第一次就跟部長講過這件事了，我們央行提出來的解方是什麼？這是央行講的，央行很重視我們的經濟發展，連這麼重視經濟發展的中央銀行都看不下去，中央銀行怎麼講？我們目前產業工會的組織率，它講2021年是7.8%，低於南韓的12.5%、日本的16.9%，因此政府宜協助並鼓勵中小企業的勞工加入產業工會，或適度降低工會籌組的門檻，以提高我國工會組織率，進而強化勞工對薪資的議價能力。部長贊不贊成央行的建議？"],["許部長銘春：當然央行的建議，我們會尊重，也應該來檢討，不過在現實上因為我們臺灣的中小企業占98%……"],["黃委員國昌：你說得很好，中小企業占很多嘛！"],["許部長銘春：對，所以……"],["黃委員國昌：現在我們組工會的門檻是多少？"],["許部長銘春：我們要30人。"],["黃委員國昌：央行說要適度降低組工會的門檻，贊不贊成？"],["許部長銘春：其實我的業務單位這幾年都有一直在研議……"],["黃委員國昌：研議八年了嘛！30個人要不要調降研議八年，你也知道臺灣絕大多數是中小企業。"],["許部長銘春：對，所以就是因為中小……"],["黃委員國昌：30個人的門檻高不高？很高嘛！連央行都講話了。沒關係，我不是這個委員會的，主席站起來比較快，按鈴也按得比較兇，我尊重、我尊重。但我今天檢討蔡英文勞工政策六大保障，我從第一個主題開始，薪資要增加、工時要減少、非典就業的保障到現在組工會的問題，每一個承諾都是我們賴總統對勞工朋友莊嚴的承諾，有做到、沒有做到，該怎麼檢討？","部長，我知道你要卸任了，我希望下一屆的勞動部部長以此為鑑，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃國昌委員。","接下來請麥玉珍委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.755343750000002,"end":10.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.746593750000002,"end":11.910968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.336593750000002,"end":15.859718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.38284375,"end":22.407218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.71096875,"end":26.254718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.08159375,"end":32.127218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.73471875,"end":40.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.868468750000005,"end":41.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.914718750000006,"end":42.977843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.63596875,"end":45.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.711593750000006,"end":47.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.517218750000005,"end":48.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.25534375,"end":51.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.39409375,"end":59.954093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.970968750000004,"end":60.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.08909375,"end":65.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.51846875000001,"end":79.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.51221875,"end":82.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.96721875,"end":87.19034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.76846875000001,"end":88.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.06346875,"end":91.86471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.15596875,"end":93.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.78846875,"end":104.87534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.36471875000001,"end":114.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.51096875,"end":116.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.19846875,"end":116.70471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.51471875000001,"end":118.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.51034375,"end":122.17221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.86409375000001,"end":126.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.52971875,"end":130.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.74471875,"end":134.72721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.16596875000002,"end":136.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.54971875,"end":138.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.96284375000002,"end":141.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.75534375,"end":148.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.34534375,"end":153.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.43721875,"end":157.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.49159375000002,"end":157.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.67284375,"end":159.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.87096875,"end":160.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.52471875,"end":163.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.62971875000002,"end":166.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.99221875,"end":167.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.78534375,"end":169.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.38846875000002,"end":169.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.55284375000002,"end":171.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.39659375000002,"end":172.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.03346875,"end":175.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.58159375000002,"end":176.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.57284375,"end":178.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.36159375,"end":181.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.96034375000002,"end":188.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.25034375,"end":190.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.02221875,"end":192.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.38909375,"end":193.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.53659375,"end":198.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.49784375000002,"end":207.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.62284375000002,"end":211.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.01471875000001,"end":214.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.32221875000002,"end":238.17096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.45784375000002,"end":241.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.60909375000003,"end":247.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.62534375,"end":248.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.00909375,"end":248.29596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.85284375,"end":262.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.86971875,"end":248.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.55096875000004,"end":264.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.45784375,"end":267.24659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.02284375,"end":270.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.48221875,"end":272.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.74784375,"end":273.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.16534375000003,"end":274.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.34659375,"end":276.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.05096875000004,"end":279.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.10534375000003,"end":281.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.84346875,"end":283.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.25659375000004,"end":288.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.57659375000003,"end":290.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.04034375000003,"end":294.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.09846875,"end":298.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.69721875000005,"end":301.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.86971875,"end":305.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.00846875,"end":310.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.64909375,"end":314.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.74971875,"end":318.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.12034375,"end":319.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.94721875000005,"end":322.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.65971875,"end":325.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.14471875000004,"end":325.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.05596875000003,"end":326.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.96721875000003,"end":327.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.03471875,"end":327.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.64221875000004,"end":327.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.82784375,"end":328.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.97534375000004,"end":329.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.02596875,"end":329.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.97096875,"end":330.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.03846875000005,"end":330.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.42221875,"end":331.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.43909375000004,"end":332.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.10534375000003,"end":338.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.21471875000003,"end":336.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.80534375,"end":336.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.85971875,"end":339.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.97784375000003,"end":340.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.93971875,"end":342.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.52596875,"end":345.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.44096875,"end":355.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.12721875,"end":357.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.90721875,"end":360.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.66221875,"end":368.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.73284375000003,"end":373.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.39034375,"end":384.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.74721875,"end":387.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.53159375,"end":394.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.31096875000003,"end":399.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.85034375000004,"end":402.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.71909375,"end":403.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.28846875000005,"end":407.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":407.73096875000005,"end":412.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.56971875000005,"end":417.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.07534375,"end":419.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.44221875000005,"end":438.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.27034375000005,"end":441.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":441.98721875,"end":455.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.97659375,"end":457.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.92159375000006,"end":458.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.42784375,"end":458.74409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.79471875,"end":459.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.46971875,"end":459.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":459.53721875,"end":459.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.48221875,"end":462.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.76034375,"end":463.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.95846875,"end":467.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.24034375,"end":475.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.38284375,"end":475.48409375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.00721875000005,"end":476.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.02409375,"end":481.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.84596875000005,"end":482.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.30159375000005,"end":484.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.10284375000003,"end":488.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.08534375000005,"end":494.53596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.92409375000005,"end":495.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.32471875000005,"end":500.50971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.91471875,"end":504.55971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.88034375,"end":508.59284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.93034375,"end":509.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.48284375000003,"end":515.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":515.22471875,"end":516.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.5747187500001,"end":518.3803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":519.4265937499999,"end":521.2490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.87346875,"end":525.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.31096875,"end":532.0659687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.35,"end":24.771,"text":"謝謝主席 來有請部長請許部長王偉浩部長我延續著上一次質詢的主題也就是蔡英文總統這8年來對勞工所做的六大承諾實踐的狀況"},{"start":27.693,"end":51.438,"text":"2016 2016年1月8日的時候蔡總統在電視政見會上說我不會拿勞工朋友的權益在選舉時候開空投資票做政治操作這句話說得非常的好政見開出來是拿來旅行的不是拿來騙票的更不是拿來做選舉操作的"},{"start":52.558,"end":65.253,"text":"因此,我們上次回顧了有關於薪資要增加、工時要減少這兩項勞工朋友最關心的議題之後我們今天進入第三項"},{"start":66.601,"end":93.089,"text":"也就是針對非典勞力的部分我們來看一下蔡總統怎麼說的我們要走向一個進步的社會就必須要立法保護非典型勞工首先要訂定派遣勞動專法我們派遣勞動專法訂了嗎?報告委員沒有訂專法那這樣子蔡總統有沒有跳票?對但我們把一些派遣請你回答問題啊這樣有沒有跳票?"},{"start":93.803,"end":116.485,"text":"沒有,報告委員我們沒有訂專法啦齁那但是我們有把一些勞工這個派遣勞動權益最重要條文我們有讓他入法所以你覺得夠了嗎當然你覺得夠了嗎我們認為就是務實中追求理想當然還不夠但是會第一個承諾要訂專法跳票"},{"start":117.557,"end":126.722,"text":"第二個,你說把東西放進去,你承認還不夠。第三個,要訂定部分公使勞工保護的相關立法,有做嗎?你覺得現在對於部分公使勞工保護做得夠嗎?"},{"start":143.84,"end":144.721,"text":"用要點來處理喔?蛤?來嘛"},{"start":161.564,"end":188.116,"text":"我就一樣一樣實事求是我從來不跟你談抽象的問題定例勞動派遣專法沒有定定例部分公使勞工保護的相關立法也沒有立我們進一步去看蔡英文跳票連監察院都看不下去了這個是2019年監察院所提出來的報告這個是通案性案件調查研究報告"},{"start":189.298,"end":214.497,"text":"在這個報告裡面他就明白的講啊政府沒有直接針對派遣勞工保護法召開協商會議改朝向行政指導、行政措施與蔡英文總統所接駐訂定派遣勞動專法相悖這個是監察院的調查報告這不是我講的所以我才說啊連監察院都看不下去了"},{"start":215.393,"end":241.437,"text":"部分工時的部分也是一樣檢察院在調查報告的時候也講得很清楚了他說部分工時的勞工在勞動關係當中處於相對的弱勢然後你剛剛所講的注意事項要只有具有行政指導的性質沒有辦法落實相關權益的保障對於檢察院這樣子的批評部長你接不接受"},{"start":242.654,"end":245.175,"text":"我這樣講好了啦8年前提出來的承諾到今天檢驗實際上面還是跳票"},{"start":271.893,"end":293.823,"text":"勞動部要有個態度勞動部要有個態度這些都是具體開出來的證件這不是騙票這也不應該做選舉操作這個是蔡總統說的嘛好 我們來看一下部分工時的勞工他沒有特休假的比例是變高還是變低這是你們的調查報告"},{"start":299.778,"end":317.864,"text":"如果按照你剛剛所講的啊要適用勞基法啊要落實啊那不對啊怎麼會沒有特休假的比例會越來越高呢這不是落實啊這是越來越糟糕啊這是惡化這是你們勞動部部分工時勞工就業實況調查報告啊部長這個我們要來加強勞檢啦齁這個應該所以你剛剛講的不對嘛"},{"start":326.127,"end":331.677,"text":"你說要是要勞基法啊!要落實啊!現實上就沒有嘛!我有說錯嗎?繼續檢討嘛!"},{"start":341.013,"end":368.132,"text":"來第四個保障目前臺灣工會的涵蓋率相當低我認為要逐漸提高工會的涵蓋率修改工會法不合時宜的限制促進工會組織真正的自由化這件事情有做到嗎這個當然有這個整個涵蓋率有還沒有達到理想我覺得這部分應該持續再努力"},{"start":368.906,"end":394.125,"text":"還沒有達到理想持續要努力部長你真的非常會講關話抽象的空話非常會講然後我們來看一下央行2023年他一直在檢討一件事跟我在提出的薪資要增加這個訴求直接相關了因為我們受僱者報酬在我們GDP的比例過去這幾年是逐漸惡化越來越糟糕"},{"start":395.373,"end":412.36,"text":"我在這個系列的質詢的第一次就跟部長講過這件事了我們央行提出來的解方是什麼這是央行講的啊央行是很重視啊我們的經濟發展連這麼重視經濟發展的中央銀行都看不下去啊中央銀行怎麼講"},{"start":413.632,"end":440.854,"text":"我們目前產業工會的組織率他講2021年7.8%低於南韓的12.5%日本的16.9%因此政府以協助並鼓勵中小企業的勞工加入產業工會或適度降低工會籌組的門檻以提高我國工會的組織率進而強化勞工對薪資的溢價能力部長贊不贊成央行的建議"},{"start":442.808,"end":465.922,"text":"當然央行經營我們是會來尊重也應該要來檢討齁那不過就是說在現實上齁因為我們台灣的這個中小企業占了98%齁那在你說得很好中小企業占很多嘛現在我們主工會的門檻是多少呃我們要3030人央行說要適度降低主工會的門檻 贊不贊成"},{"start":470.026,"end":487.291,"text":"這個齁其實我的業務單位這幾年都一直在研議啦研議了八年了嘛三十個人要不要調降研議了八年你也知道台灣絕大多數是中小企業啊那三十個人門檻高不高很高嘛連央行都講話啦"},{"start":489.124,"end":518.332,"text":"沒關係啦我不是這個委員會了主席站起來比較快按你按得比較兇啊我尊重我尊重但我今天檢討蔡英文勞工政策六大保障我從第一個主題開始薪資要增加工時要減少非典就業的保障到現在主公會的問題每一個承諾都是我們賴總統對勞工朋友莊嚴的承諾有做到沒有做到該怎麼檢討部長我知道你要卸任了啦"},{"start":519.929,"end":525.076,"text":"我知道您要卸任了。我希望下一屆的勞動部的部長以此而建。謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151771","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151771","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15f598cd1038ec092cc97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed0d690d3a913060f315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"13:03:35 - 13:07:56","影片長度":"00:04:21","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":261,"end_time":"2024-04-25T13:07:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T13:03:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1318,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（13時3分）謝謝主席，我們這邊請許部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：林委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：部長好，時間已經這麼晚，大家辛苦了。本席在今天這個主題上，在法條上還有一些更深層面的思考想給部裡面一個建議，我們在面對長期失業者的困境，我這邊針對就業服務法有關於長期失業者的服務對象，我這邊提出是不是不要只求有工作，而是能夠求更好？也就是能夠適得其所？我這邊建議面對長期失業者的不同型態，雖然中央各主管機關會有審視，現在可以再擴大審視的深度跟廣度，明列有其必要者，我們可以看法條第二十四條第十款，這邊有很多的對象，可不可以積極面對、然後落實就業的媒合？第二十四條裡面規定的對象有很多，像第一個獨立負擔家計，第四個是原住民的部分還有長期失業、二度就業，這邊是身分別，本席在這邊建議是不是可以對這種特定的對象，檢視他分類的基礎，因為這些身分別裡面，可能會有一些多重的重疊。","另外，有一些長期失業者，他的就業障礙會變得很嚴重，以就業的身分來講，其實有很多失業時間很長的，就會導致他在職業融入的部分會特別困難，所以我們可不可以參考、貴部如果有機會參考一下德國就業促進法的規範跟措施，不僅在內容還有時間持續的部分，來考慮一下對穩定需求的增加還有失業者的支持，可以思考一下失業期間來取代這個特定對象的身分別，或看你們怎麼樣去多重思考的一個處理，比如說像失業三個月、失業六個月、九個月、十二個月，可能部裡面可以就這個部分提供不同深度的就業資訊，還有就業促進的措施。","最後建請主管機關審慎的檢視，除了津貼的補助以外，還有針對就業的時間，可以更積極一點來做處理、做不同深度的就業協助，還有澈底貫徹自願就業者的就職期待，所以不僅要有、我們也期待更好。"],["許部長銘春：委員，我先回應你一下您剛提到德國的制度，剛好我們今年要去考察，我們剛好要去取經，他山之石可以攻錯，好的經驗我們都來學習，另外是長期失業者，我們有一個長期失業族群的服務指引，我們現在邀請專家學者來做一些討論，他們把指引研擬出來之後，我們要提供給就服員參考，來盤點相關的社政衛生資源，結合民間團體、村里長、基層網路來合作，發掘潛在的失業者並協助他，就是不是只以身分，而是以他的失業狀況，然後適性地去排除他就業的障礙，提高他就業的意願，這個我們有在做，剛好謝謝委員的提醒，這個我們有在做。","另外德國的部分，我請他們去的時候，特別就這個部分去研究人家好的制度，我們來做參考。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝部長還有部裡已經注意到這樣一個問題，希望能夠水到渠成，也祝福部長，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員。本日會議詢答全部結束，委員廖偉翔、楊曜、盧縣一、翁曉玲、羅智強所提出書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"],["委員廖偉翔書面質詢：","案由：本院廖委員偉翔，針對就業服務法施行逾三十年，然對於排除中低及低收入戶之就業障礙，並進而增進其就業率仍有改進空間。尤其近年來因通膨上漲嚴重，非符合中低收門檻之近貧族增加，如何增進並確保其就業，避免成為不穩定就業或福利依賴族群，則更顯重要，爰此特向勞動部提出書面質詢。","說明：","一、勞動部為促進經濟弱勢者就業，輔助其自立，自民國81年就業服務法施行以來，即將低收入戶及中低收入戶有工作能力者列入各級政府應致力促進就業之對象，並納列行政院改善所得分配具體方案重點工作項目之一，然依據衛福部107年低收入戶及中低收入戶生活狀況調查報告，低收入戶及中低收入戶家計負責人仍有51%因高齡或身心障礙無法工作；另65.48%之家計負責人雖有工作，惟半數以上屬非經常性工作或部分工時工作等非典型就業型態，顯見協助高齡、身心障礙者及非典之就業推介，需要更進一步政策引導，方能有效提高就業率。","二、再者，上述不易就業族群，亦有部分個案長期陷入重複尋職循環，導致不穩定就業，陷入工作貧窮困境，勞動部亦應分析該族群其不易就業之原因為何，並進行改善。同時觀察近年來因通膨上漲嚴重，非符合中低收門檻之近貧族增加，如何增進並確保其就業，避免成為不穩定就業或福利依賴族群，則更顯重要，爰要求勞動部應於一個月內，就上述問題提出分析報告，並研議政策解決方向及具體作為。"],["委員楊曜書面質詢：","一、青年就業領航計畫申請人數驟減，勞發署如何因應？","問題：為了讓高中職應屆畢業生確立未來人生目標和方向，教育部與勞動部自2017年起推出青年教育與就業儲蓄帳戶方案（青年就業領航計畫），鼓勵高中應屆畢業生先透過職場體驗、學習和國際體驗累積經驗，待確定未來目標後，再決定就學或就業，但據教育部統計，提供青年職場體驗的青年就業領航計畫，申請人數從2021年最多6,596人，2023年再降到3,083人，請問勞動部，申請人數驟降的原因為何？又勞發署網站資料顯示，若學生欲中止計畫，體驗學習不到2年，就不能享有教育部後續的就學配套措施，是否因為提供職缺不符學生興趣及最少必須參與此計畫二年造成學生參與的阻礙，勞動部因應措施為何？","二、勞動部如何解決當今社會「高學低就」（Underemployment）之現象？","問題：根據國際勞工組織2023年初公布的《世界就業和社會展望趨勢》，經濟放緩可能迫使工人接受質量較低、薪酬較低、缺乏就業保障和社會保護的工作，COVID-19的衝擊加劇此一不平等現象，依主計總處估計，2001年具大學以上學歷而從事基層勞力工作者只有2萬，占117萬名大學以上學歷就業者僅1.8%，2022年此一比率升至11.3%，21年來已提升5倍之多，愈來愈多高學歷者只能找到基層勞力的工作，在現今趨勢，「高學低就」是全球普遍的現象，也讓部分國家青年失業率急速攀升，為此，勞動部有無調查，究竟是媒合就業機會或是人才培訓出問題，導致高學歷勞工無法學以致用？勞動部未來要如何結合其他權責機關來解決「高學低就」問題？","三、面對台灣勞動力市場中層技術人才斷層，勞動部該如何協助培訓人才？","問題：媒體報導，中華工業教育研究發展基金會董事長許永德表示，為了台灣經濟的轉型需要，60年代自德國引進培養出技術專長「師父」，類似日本的「職人」，滿足經濟社會各行各業教導技術的人才，特別是工業發展技術能夠傳承，在技術引進、產業升級時有推動的力量，但中層技術人員，在台灣就業市場提供的薪資條件偏中低水平，也影響到中層技術人才留任意願，現今台灣職場上勞力職務已需要靠外籍移工彌補，資方願意付出高薪，台灣人卻賺不到這些高薪，在少子化趨勢下更為嚴重，令人憂心的是，未來中層技術人員恐也要靠移工補足，請問勞動部，面對產業界的擔憂，認為台灣勞動力市場中層技術人才斷層，勞動部該如何協助培訓人才？","四、如何落實《就業服務法》所規範就業諮詢、職業輔導等措施？","問題：有學者認為「公立就業服務機構就業諮詢及職業輔導實施辦法」，該實施辦法第七條：就服機構對經就業諮詢，評估為就業目標或職涯不清楚之求職人，得提供職業輔導，但所提供就業諮詢、職業輔導之專業服務深度與廣度不足，請教勞動部，近三年經《公立就業服務機構就業諮詢及職業輔導實施辦法》第七條所提供之職業輔導人數為何？經職業輔導後，順利求職人數為何？是否有持續追蹤該求職者三個月後是否有持續在原單位工作？未來勞動部要如何積極落實，以建立專業的就業服務制度？"],["委員盧縣一書面質詢：","1.有關家庭看護移工與原雇主合意轉換新雇主；或是家庭看護移工違法逃逸，原雇主直接申請遞補新移工乙案，勞動部目前檢討及修正之方案內容為何？以縮短原雇主，用人空窗期等問題。","2.於112年10月13日修正家庭看護移工申請相關法令，增列多元認定申請資格，及簡化75歲以上長者及領有特定身心障礙證明者重新聘僱看護移工之流程，惟針對雇主或是所受照顧者身分具原住民身分且居處原鄉及偏遠與離島地區者，勞動部得否針對此一對象族群，重新檢討與放寬相關認定資格與程序？","3.目前「直接聘僱聯合服務中心」功能，為提供雇主直聘移工申辦案件受理及雙語諮詢通譯等服務，其迄今執行成果與服務量能為何？","4.為免雇主或仲介機構疏忽協助移工辦理居留許可，目前實施「在臺移工一站式申請聘僱及居留整合服務」，整合聘僱及居留許可申辦作業，惟針對於雇主方面之宣導及推廣情形，勞動部之執行成果為何？","5.另外，勞動部針對如何強化督促僱用移工之事業單位，得否落實勞工教育訓練及加強職安標示等問題（尤其，營造及製造業移工），目前辦理成效及策進作為？","6.有關勞動部加強仲介管理，除定期查核及評鑑機制外，落實引進移工失聯過高停權機制，定期查核引進移工發生失聯逾規定人數及比率，將暫停引進移工來臺工作。目前，勞動部是否仍有其他精進、檢討作為？以加強督促仲介機構，落實管理及降低移工失聯風險。"],["委員翁曉玲書面質詢：","案由：本院翁曉玲委員，有鑑於我國即將進入超高齡社會，且勞動力短缺與少子化問題嚴重，勞動人力與長照需求皆不容小覷，現行就業服務法對雇主責任規範似有改進空間，又移工轉換制度影響長照人力、移工留才，特於立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議，向勞動部提出書面質詢。","說明：","一、我國僱用外國人工作採許可制，若雇主非法容留、聘僱非法外籍勞工責任，違反者會處15萬元至75萬元之罰鍰，若5年內再違反，甚需負刑事責任，且實務上，課以雇主較高之查證義務；2023年全國各地查獲雇主違反《就業服務法》件數計有3,598件，其中違反《就業服務法》第57條第1款規定：聘僱未經許可、許可失效或他人所申請聘僱之外國人有1,660件，占總雇主違法件數為46.1%。","二、依衛服部推估我國2022年長照需求人數即將近83萬人，2023年監察院調查發現「疫情期間移工跨業轉換就業機會增加，加劇國內家庭看護移工的流動與流失」、「勞動部未與衛福部進行跨部會整合研議可長期運作的長照人力制度」，勞動部則表示將「積極檢討調整移工轉換制度」、「持續加強跨部會合作」。由於移工跨職轉換影響長照人力。","三、請勞動部於5月9日前回覆提供以下資料：","1.勞動部應針對雇主違規事項，考量違規情節態樣調整裁罰額度進行研議。（請回復研議結果）","2.目前每年移工跨業轉職人數？社福移工跨業轉職人數？","3.勞動部調整移工轉換制度之方向、具體措施？","4.對於家庭看護移工納入長照體系，勞動部之跨部會溝通結果？進度？"],["委員羅智強書面質詢：","案由：本院羅委員智強，有鑑於我國隨著平均壽命增長，國家發展委員會推估台灣將於2025年邁入超高齡社會。綜合考量少子女化問題，如何照料高齡長輩成為一項重要課題，但長期照護費用對許多家庭是沉重經濟負擔，許多家庭照顧者在無法喘息的情況下，現今已有多起長照悲歌案例發生，特向衛福部提出質詢。","說明：","根據國家發展委員會人口推估查詢系統，推估2024年80歲以上民眾約95萬9千多人，十年後2034年80歲以上民眾約162萬9千多人。然而很多超過80歲的固然非被定義為失能者，但是隨著年紀的增長，必然伴隨部分身體機能的退化，照成生活上的不便，需要有人來照料生活起居。","現行衛福部將銀髮長者分為健康、亞健康者的預防性健康照顧，以及失能者的長期照顧。","剛剛我們提到的就是「亞健康者」的長輩，僅僅透過目前傳統的健康檢查，很難澈底解決亞健康的狀況。這些長期被亞健康症狀困擾的長輩卻不在少數。","然而，當家中有行動不便的長輩，或是失智症患者的看護需求時，如果想申請像是外籍看護工等長照服務資源，就得要經過層層關卡，其中又以巴氏量表的評估最為複雜，不僅從申請到確定結果可能要花到兩個月外，每三年還得重新評估一次，對於需要持續照護的患者來說非常麻煩。","目前衛福部是針對使用長照服務超過6個月、失智評估量表輕度以上等，就可以省去巴氏量表評估的步驟，直接申請外籍看護工。","但是前述提到的「高齡亞健康者」，其實也是我們在預防工作上，非常重要的一環。但是由於非屬於前面提到已經進入失能狀態，很多家庭就陷入長考，由於這類型的高齡長者醫屬於高風險族群，一旦出現意外就容易陷入嚴重的處境，因而應該要適度的提供此類家庭一個協助選項，不至於讓子女陷入工作與家庭照護的抉擇困境之中。","現行來說，巴氏量表將年滿85歲以上，分類為屬於輕度依賴者、年滿80歲以上，屬於嚴重依賴者、未滿80歲，需要全日照護者，事實上也符合前述所稱，即便非屬於失能者，在生活起居的照料上，被歸類為嚴重依賴者，因此，本席主張衛福部應該秉持著最初「因應高齡社會，完備長照制度」的精神，在亞健康者的預防性健康照顧中，再次提升相關的服務量能。","當前的普設社區關懷據點，建立社區健康促進與關懷網絡，難以及時介入高風險的緊急照護，對於亞健康者是以日間照護中心、日間托老服務、小規模多機能服務，參考我國現行之住居狀態，銀髮族多處於與伴侶共居或是獨居狀態，對於全時照護之需求尚未提供更妥適的辦法。結合當前長照人力不足之情事，聘僱外國人從事家庭看護工作是重要選項。","為了提供長者更溫暖簡便的行政流程，應該放寬雇主聘僱外國人從事家庭看護工作，被看護者之資格條件，若年齡滿八十歲以上，得免經醫療機構之專業評估，以減輕家庭照顧者壓力，舒緩醫病衝突關係。因而，本席也要求衛福部應提出相關的評估計畫，因應台灣迫在眉睫的超高齡化社會變遷。"],["主席：現在作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員質詢未及答復或請補充資料者，請相關機關於兩週內以書面答復。委員另要求期限者，從其所定。","本日會議到此結束，現在散會。","散會（13時8分）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.0259687500000005,"end":9.126593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.585968750000003,"end":94.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.957218750000003,"end":13.395968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.53721875,"end":27.874718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.939718750000004,"end":44.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.445968750000006,"end":44.462843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.27784375,"end":102.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.88409375,"end":106.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.50784375,"end":181.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.19409375000001,"end":117.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.46409375,"end":117.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.75971875000002,"end":142.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.88909375,"end":179.20971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.03221875,"end":187.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.48346875000001,"end":182.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.73159375,"end":188.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.14909375000002,"end":207.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.64096875,"end":201.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.69471875000002,"end":219.91221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.16534375,"end":222.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.13534375,"end":235.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.38659375,"end":240.65159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.80346875,"end":245.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.01784375000003,"end":247.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.97534375,"end":254.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.03409375,"end":250.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.88596875000002,"end":253.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.79284375,"end":259.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.76721875000004,"end":256.98659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.45909375,"end":258.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.15909375,"end":261.30659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.049,"end":8.912,"text":"謝謝主席。我們這邊請徐部長。請徐部長。部長好。大家辛苦了。那個時間已經這麼晚。本席在對今天的這個主題上就只有在法條上還有一些更深層面的思考這邊想給這個部裡面這邊一個建議。我們在面對長期失業者的一個困境我這邊針對就業服務法"},{"start":33.63,"end":47.861,"text":"有關於長期失業者的服務對象那我這邊提出來就是說是不是不要只求有工作而是能夠求更好也就是能夠適得其所我這邊建議啦面對長期失業者的不同型態"},{"start":49.742,"end":64.857,"text":"雖然中央各主管機關會有審視那現在可以再擴大一個審視的深度跟廣度那名列有其必要者那我們又可以看到這個法條的24條的第10款這邊有很多個對象可以積極面對然後落實這個就業的媒合"},{"start":69.361,"end":92.894,"text":"這個24條裡面的規定對象有很多像第一個獨立、負擔、家計然後第四個這個原住民這個部分還有長期失業、二度就業這邊是這個身分別那本席在這邊建議就是說是不是可以對這種特定的對象檢視他的一個分類的基礎因為這些身分別裡面可能會有一些多重的重疊"},{"start":95.544,"end":116.68,"text":"另外有一些長期失業者他就會變成就業的這個障礙很嚴重所以這邊雖然就那個就業的這個就是分類就身份來講那其實有很多失業時間很長的那就會導致他在他的職業輪路的這個部分會特別的困難"},{"start":117.701,"end":133.641,"text":"所以我們可不可以參考那個貴部如果有機會參考一下德國就業促進法的規範跟措施那不僅在內容還有這個時間的持續的部分來考慮一下對穩定的這個需求的增加還有事業者的支持"},{"start":135.163,"end":161.27,"text":"這個特定的對象可以思考一下失業期間來取代他的身分別或看你們怎麼樣去多重思考的一個處理那比如說像失業3個月、失業6個月、9個月、12個月那可能部裡面這邊可以提供可以就這個部分提供不同的深度的就業諮詢然後還有就業促進的一個措施所以最後就是這個"},{"start":162.13,"end":166.253,"text":"我先回應您一下您剛剛提到德國的制度剛好我們今天也要去考察"},{"start":189.432,"end":206.262,"text":"主要是取經他在知識可以工作好的經驗我們都來學習另外就是那個長期失業者我們有一個長期失業者那個就業的指引指引我們現在是在就長期失業族群的服務指引那這個我們就是要"},{"start":207.745,"end":221.936,"text":"我們現在在邀請專家學者來做一些討論那把這指引研擬出來之後我們要提供給就服務委員參考來盤點相關的社政衛生資源那結合民間團體、村里長、基層網路來合作發掘潛在的事業者、協助他"},{"start":223.217,"end":245.17,"text":"就是不是只以身份就是以他的這個失業狀況然後適性的去排除他就業的障礙然後提高他就業的意願這個我們有在做剛好謝謝委員的提醒這個我們有在做那另外德國的部分我請他們去的時候特別這個部分特別去研究人家好的制度我們來做參考"},{"start":247.031,"end":256.142,"text":"謝謝部長還有部理已經注意到這樣一個問題。希望能夠水到渠成。祝福部長。"}]}},{"id":"151770","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151770","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15c06efbac3b16afe0c97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed03cfe12649b1131145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"12:49:55 - 13:03:31","影片長度":"00:13:36","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":816,"end_time":"2024-04-25T13:03:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T12:49:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1263,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（12時50分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：劉委員好。"],["劉委員建國：部長好。部長要走了，有沒有什麼話要說？"],["許部長銘春：謝謝啦！在衛環委員會，我在所有委員的指教跟支持下，也推動了很多政策跟法案，當然還有很多努力的空間，就留待下一位我們何部長來繼續努力，謝謝。"],["劉委員建國：因為剩下時間已經不多了，想讓部長多講一些話，你既然這麼簡短，那我就還是要跟部長一起來為勞動的權利，還有勞工相關的一些事情，在最後僅剩的幾天裡面來做一些努力。部長看一下這個報導，這是昨天的報導，這應該是之前的事情。"],["許部長銘春：之前那個五互集團的餐飲，捷利啦！"],["劉委員建國：OK。它是在去年無預警宣布倒閉，旗下品牌相關在臺的門市將近三十間也突然結束營業，許多員工都是臨時收到通知，甚至員工上班上到一半被通知不用上班，總計大概有500名員工因此失業。根據勞動部回報本席的辦公室是說，相關的員工其實都已經有做妥適的安排與協助。"],["許部長銘春：有，因為餐飲業很缺工，所以轉銜、轉業沒有問題。"],["劉委員建國：好。"],["許部長銘春：還有他的資遣費，其實我們有一些墊償，我們的墊償機制也都會保障他們……"],["劉委員建國：我知道，這個有回復，我清楚，但是我現在想說，這個事情我們回過頭來看，就是說這個集團當時有申請大量解僱嗎？沒有嘛。"],["許部長銘春：這個集團好像沒有，所以要處罰。"],["劉委員建國：對，但是負責人已經不見了，因為負責人不見、消失了，所以你要處罰他也處罰不到。我現在回過頭來討論這個事情，是要提到預警機制，我們大解法裡面是有設預警機制，也就是說，僱用勞工30人以上之事業單位，有下列情形之一者，由相關單位或人員向主管機關通報，這裡面包括積欠工資、勞健保、全部或主要之營業部分停工、決議併購或最近二年曾發生重大勞資爭議，對不對？這個是我們在大解法裡面第十一條有設置這樣一個預警機制，但是它的一、二、三款跟剛剛我提的這個餐飲業龍頭的狀態有適用嗎？"],["許部長銘春：它都沒有發生這個狀況。"],["劉委員建國：對嘛！所以這個預警機制對這個事件來講是沒有作用的，應該是這麼說嘛，我是講第一個樣態，因為這家公司涉入吸金案，導致子公司受到影響，所以它走到這個地步，坦白講是不難預料，然後地方勞工局應該是啟動這個預警機制，它要啟動是依據我們的第十一條，但好像又沒有它這樣的一個樣態，要怎麼去啟動？再來，剛剛我特別提到負責人是逃逸後，整間公司直接倒閉，所以500人是秒失業，所以才有人上班上到一半被通知說不用上班了，那我也覺得很奇怪，是誰去通知他，叫他不用上班？所以應該公司底下還有相關負責的人嘛！"],["許部長銘春：應該是主管啦！"],["劉委員建國：對啦！主管是接受到誰的命令？"],["許部長銘春：應該是接受到負責人的命令或……"],["劉委員建國：我只是要提供這樣的一個樣態，等一下我會再提供一個樣態給部長跟司長做參考。我調出大量解僱勞工保護法的修法歷程，大量解僱勞工保護法最近一次修法是在104年，那個時候是配合組改，改名稱而已，勞委會變成勞動部，再來，離那一次再往前一次是民國97年，也就是說，從97年到現在已經將近16年，大量解僱勞工保護法並沒有做任何的修正，除了配合組改，改名稱而已，這個部分要請部長跟司長思考一下。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["劉委員建國：同樣在這16年內，我們也遇到了109年的時候，包括COVID-19的疫情，當時有申請大量解僱的案件，從平均每年兩百多件，一口氣飆升到364件，將近70%的成長，然後通報解僱人數高達一萬四千五百多人。依據大解法第四條規定，事業單位大量解僱勞工時，應在60日前提出解僱計畫書，只有天災、事變或突發事件才能不受60日之限制。但是在109年疫情的時候，未依規定在60日前提出解僱計畫書而遭罰的案件就有43件，110年有32件，111年有22件，112年有30件，去年還有30件，但是我要請教部長，這個疫情到底算不算天災？到底算不算事變？到底算不算突發事件？"],["許部長銘春：其實這個應該……我是覺得……"],["劉委員建國：連你都要想這麼久，這個法律就有問題了。"],["許部長銘春：司長跟我說不適用啦！我是覺得這個有問題。"],["劉委員建國：對啊！司長講不屬於天災、事變、突發事件，部長你對法律也是有你的專業，有你的經驗，但是你看這個COVID-19的疫情，誰當時料想得到？"],["許部長銘春：對啊！"],["劉委員建國：誰料想得到它會多久？"],["許部長銘春：是啊！"],["劉委員建國：對不對？沒人想得到嘛，然後當時的船運又出了多大的問題，整個運輸又出了什麼樣的一個狀況？這個難道都不算在突發事件裡面嗎？這個沒人想得到啊！我再用一個例子給部長跟司長做參考，我這邊有個案例，嘉義縣有某經營家具外銷公司，主要是因為疫情，訂單減少以及臨時得知客戶無法付款屬突發事件，照理講，這應該不受60日前通報限制，但勞動部訴願委員會是這麼講的：全球疫情已持續一段時間，可事先預知訂單將會減少。這個怎麼預知？在疫情期間，很多產業是變相在成長，就像晶片。又說：相關營運及人事管理應有所準備，並非不可預見緊急事件，因此違反大解法第四條規定，處10到50萬罰鍰。我想這個個案判斷，我這邊要尊重勞動部訴願委員會的決定，我不是要探討這件事情實際上的裁決內容，但是我是強調說，當你要去做出這樣的裁決過程裡面，你敘明這樣的理由，我會覺得好像……"],["許部長銘春：可以論述更完整一點啦！我是覺得這樣有點簡單。"],["劉委員建國：你跟我都一樣啦！包含訴願委員會的委員都一樣，沒有人有辦法去預估怎麼會有這樣的疫情、這個疫情到底要延續多久，沒有一個人有辦法預見這個事情，那我們怎麼相對要要求業主，相對在產業界的這些人有辦法去預見這樣的事情？那是不可能的事情啊！所以我是要舉這兩個樣態，然後又16年沒有修這個大解法，是不是在部長要臨別秋去的時候，留下美麗的身影？"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員，我……"],["劉委員建國：這個事情是不是可以在你畢業之前來思考發動？是不是來處理大量解僱勞工保護法？"],["許部長銘春：看起來已經17年了，我覺得一個法律訂了這麼多年，是需要全盤再檢視一下。"],["劉委員建國：是呀！"],["許部長銘春：所以司長在這裡，我就當場指示他，我們全盤來檢視，該修就要來修。"],["劉委員建國：OK，好，我又看到部長美麗的身影了，謝謝。","第二題，403大地震讓花蓮成為重災區，花蓮縣府已經獲得2家旅宿業者申請大量解僱，分別申報83人及40人，共有120餘人要失業，但是同月23日又餘震，再增加1間花蓮的富凱飯店傾倒，預計兩週內就必須要拆除這個飯店的建築，我想這個飯店也一定符合大解法第四條所定的天災事變或突發事件。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["劉委員建國：如果這家飯店再提出大量解僱的申請，花蓮就有三家了，花蓮這次地震掉了十億觀光的產值，可能還會再增加也不一定，接下來又是暑假的檔期，真的是非常不樂觀，所以可能會有相關連動性的業者也會去啟動大量解僱，這樣的狀況會陸續出現，我必須要講說，因為大量解僱而失業的員工透過勞動部就業服務的轉介，要在花蓮找到相同性質的工作，不簡單！"],["許部長銘春：不容易。"],["劉委員建國：對不對？有一定難度嘛？而且他是整個，他絕不是一個單一旅宿業的倒閉，而是整個花蓮區域性的產業問題，這個真的是會受到滿大的挑戰，我不曉得勞動部有沒有去預估未來一年內花蓮縣可能會有多少失業人口？那勞動部要怎麼做？有怎樣的因應跟輔導？"],["許部長銘春：在人數上，我們可以預期一定會增加，但是到底增加多少我們要看狀況，重點是我現在有專人針對目前花蓮的整個狀況，包括勞工這些失業、就業需要幫忙的，我們有專人在處理，也隨時都有跟花蓮縣政府這邊保持聯繫，我們就是即時的援助，但是就像剛剛委員講的，畢竟他現在是整個觀光產業都受影響。"],["劉委員建國：對啊！"],["許部長銘春：有時候轉業可能不像在西部這麼方便，所以要跨域也會有困難，不過我們現在至少還有臨工措施或者失業給付，還可以撐一些時間，不過其他的產業部分，我們現在透過……雖然沒有辦法到那邊旅遊或什麼的，但其他產業我們用其他的方式，比如說用網購或什麼方式來支持，讓這些產業可能會增加用人的需求，然後能夠去解決這些問題，其實我們署長上個禮拜有先過去了，我叫他去現場瞭解，可能後續還有些問題我們要先有一些預先的規劃，要有前瞻的規劃，因為這個影響會持續一段相當的時間，看要怎麼幫忙，就像我們當初疫情是先做最壞的打算、做最好的準備，所以也謝謝委員提醒，我們都會全盤的關注。"],["劉委員建國：對，所以剛才部長特別提到預先還是說預估、預防，包含剛才我特別提到大解法裡面的預警，其實預防勝於一切的治療，這個我們大家都很清楚。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["劉委員建國：過去我們也有921這麼嚴重的大地震，比花蓮大地震更嚴重到N倍以上，當時怎麼去做因應、怎麼去預估、怎麼去做預先的一些事情，我想這個部分勞動部可能要協同交通部、協同經濟部。"],["許部長銘春：對，這要跨部會，我們會跨部會來處理，行政院有召開相關的跨部會會議來協助。"],["劉委員建國：當然也希望部長在僅剩的時間裡面能夠特別要求，是不是可以快速的在兩個禮拜內可以做出這樣一個預估、預先、預警的報告給我們委員會做參考。"],["許部長銘春：好，可以。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝劉建國委員發言。接下來請林倩綺委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.430343750000002,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.337218750000002,"end":12.180968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.19284375,"end":17.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.78346875,"end":17.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.289718750000002,"end":18.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.133468750000002,"end":19.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.78721875,"end":21.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.96409375,"end":22.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.99784375,"end":23.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.06534375,"end":23.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.07784375,"end":24.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.78659375,"end":30.405968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.49034375,"end":32.346593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.80221875,"end":34.439093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.84409375,"end":36.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.20659375,"end":41.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":41.35784375,"end":43.517843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.737218750000004,"end":44.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.783468750000004,"end":46.268468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.43721875,"end":52.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.220968750000004,"end":54.064718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.09846875,"end":54.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.11534375,"end":54.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.570968750000006,"end":64.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.03784375000001,"end":64.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.69596875,"end":72.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.37471875,"end":68.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.39159375,"end":68.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.74159375,"end":70.14659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.09159375,"end":74.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.26409375,"end":76.45784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.29784375,"end":74.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.64346875000001,"end":77.06534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.06534375000001,"end":78.73596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.74034375000001,"end":78.55034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.42784375000001,"end":94.12596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.78596875000001,"end":82.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.93784375,"end":82.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.97159375000001,"end":83.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.42971875,"end":107.42346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.96971875000001,"end":96.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.04971875000001,"end":96.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.18471875,"end":96.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":106.59659375000001,"end":111.22034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.50784375,"end":108.04784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.17846875000001,"end":109.56659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.22034375000001,"end":111.40596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.40596875000001,"end":119.65784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.52721875,"end":129.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.76159375,"end":132.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.84596875,"end":131.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.99346875,"end":133.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.68534375000002,"end":134.69346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.69346875000002,"end":134.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.23346875000001,"end":135.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.38534375,"end":135.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.84096875,"end":137.22471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.01784375,"end":147.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.31596875,"end":147.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.56909375,"end":149.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.04971875,"end":152.85096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.96909375,"end":175.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":173.80971875,"end":174.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.09221875,"end":175.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.39596875,"end":175.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.91909375,"end":181.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.75784375,"end":182.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.16284375,"end":183.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.30596875,"end":186.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.24221875,"end":191.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.61284375000002,"end":192.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.28346875000003,"end":193.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.05971875,"end":195.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.64596875,"end":198.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.12221875,"end":200.08409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.92784375000002,"end":201.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.21034375000002,"end":203.10471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.79659375,"end":216.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.41471875000002,"end":220.26659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.51971875,"end":223.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.32096875000002,"end":225.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.48096875000002,"end":226.18971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.34159375000002,"end":227.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.75909375,"end":228.70409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.03284375,"end":231.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.16346875000002,"end":238.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.82909375000003,"end":245.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.68034375000002,"end":250.32096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.51096875000002,"end":251.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.48971875,"end":250.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.70471875,"end":254.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.28659375,"end":257.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.10471875,"end":257.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.66159375,"end":257.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.16784375000003,"end":273.25409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.06409375000004,"end":275.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.85284375000003,"end":282.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":276.78096875,"end":277.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":278.35034375000004,"end":278.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":283.68284375,"end":284.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.80096875000004,"end":288.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":288.98159375,"end":289.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.35284375000003,"end":300.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.10784375000003,"end":291.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.60846875000004,"end":300.92909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.91221875,"end":309.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.40471875000003,"end":308.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.26534375,"end":309.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.65346875,"end":332.83971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.09284375000004,"end":336.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.42971875,"end":342.67784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":342.67784375,"end":343.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.03221875,"end":356.71784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":356.71784375000004,"end":357.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.10596875000005,"end":360.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.59909375,"end":361.84784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.20221875000004,"end":363.50159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":365.91471875,"end":366.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.33659375,"end":366.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.45034375,"end":369.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.96471875000003,"end":373.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.03221875,"end":370.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":374.35221875,"end":375.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.44471875000005,"end":379.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":377.86221875,"end":378.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.61721875,"end":383.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.86159375,"end":382.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.34659375,"end":384.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.35909375,"end":385.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.16471875,"end":386.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.07596875,"end":387.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.63284375,"end":388.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.67909375000005,"end":390.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.06721875000005,"end":390.56909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.46784375000004,"end":390.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.59846875000005,"end":392.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.79659375,"end":400.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":400.87971875000005,"end":401.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":401.14971875000003,"end":401.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.33096875,"end":404.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.52471875000003,"end":404.64284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.68909375000004,"end":405.90846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.16159375,"end":406.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.02221875000004,"end":407.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.11909375000005,"end":408.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.43971875000005,"end":410.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":411.24096875000004,"end":411.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.25784375,"end":413.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":411.30846875000003,"end":411.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.14346875,"end":418.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":418.91909375,"end":419.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.37471875,"end":421.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":422.34471875,"end":422.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.63159375000004,"end":432.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":423.74534375,"end":424.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.70596875,"end":439.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.06346875,"end":445.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.96971875,"end":450.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.04909375000005,"end":455.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.46596875,"end":456.76971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.52909375,"end":459.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.95909375,"end":469.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.72971875,"end":477.05346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.96471875000003,"end":489.05159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.60846875000004,"end":493.65846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.06346875,"end":494.92409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.00409375000004,"end":497.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.34971875,"end":502.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":498.68721875000006,"end":500.08784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.30721875,"end":501.64034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.68659375000004,"end":502.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.29409375000006,"end":503.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.93096875000003,"end":516.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.23284375,"end":525.7209687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":526.36221875,"end":527.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":527.59409375,"end":528.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":527.9484687500001,"end":533.38221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":533.38221875,"end":533.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.1415937500001,"end":534.8840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.2553437500001,"end":536.21721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.8415937500001,"end":539.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.60909375,"end":544.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":543.3215937500001,"end":543.4228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":544.1653437500001,"end":544.7222187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.63346875,"end":546.6797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":546.6797187500001,"end":547.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.05096875,"end":547.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.14784375,"end":555.2859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":549.10971875,"end":550.2234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.31971875,"end":555.3703437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.3703437500001,"end":565.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.3872187500001,"end":556.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.00721875,"end":557.8172187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.47909375,"end":561.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":561.96846875,"end":562.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":562.0359687499999,"end":562.4240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":562.4240937500001,"end":562.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":563.89221875,"end":564.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.02721875,"end":564.2803437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":564.2803437499999,"end":564.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":564.31409375,"end":564.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.34346875,"end":565.6809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":565.59659375,"end":567.7734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.7397187500001,"end":568.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":567.97596875,"end":569.1740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.1740937500001,"end":573.5615937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":573.5615937499999,"end":573.6459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":574.4897187500001,"end":574.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":574.5234687500001,"end":575.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.2109687500001,"end":577.1897187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.29096875,"end":589.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":589.5590937500001,"end":590.1159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.6728437500001,"end":591.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.59659375,"end":595.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":595.3472187500001,"end":595.7522187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.56659375,"end":599.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.8315937500001,"end":606.8390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.1428437500001,"end":607.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.9822187500001,"end":612.5090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.7790937500001,"end":613.7578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.53409375,"end":615.7490937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.5590937500001,"end":624.77721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":620.59221875,"end":620.9297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.1484687500001,"end":631.2065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":631.3247187500001,"end":631.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":631.5947187500001,"end":638.6147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":639.13784375,"end":646.2253437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":646.90034375,"end":647.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":647.57534375,"end":648.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":648.11534375,"end":651.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":651.20346875,"end":657.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.57784375,"end":660.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":660.3328437499999,"end":660.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":661.4465937500001,"end":666.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.28534375,"end":669.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":668.8547187500001,"end":669.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":669.81659375,"end":689.9653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":673.2253437500001,"end":673.6809687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":690.0834687500001,"end":690.8428437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":691.19721875,"end":693.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":693.84659375,"end":695.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":696.24284375,"end":696.6140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":696.96846875,"end":699.2465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":699.6515937500001,"end":703.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":703.7353437500001,"end":704.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":703.93784375,"end":711.0759687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":711.26159375,"end":728.2378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":728.4740937500001,"end":728.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":729.0647187500001,"end":738.85221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":732.77721875,"end":732.8447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.8447187500001,"end":732.8953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":737.04659375,"end":737.5022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":738.85221875,"end":739.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":739.10534375,"end":741.7040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":742.1428437500001,"end":746.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":744.35346875,"end":745.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":747.15471875,"end":761.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":750.9853437500001,"end":751.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":761.46471875,"end":770.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":770.9653437500001,"end":790.2197187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":772.0790937500001,"end":772.99034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":777.1584687500001,"end":777.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":783.26721875,"end":783.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":783.30096875,"end":783.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":788.2453437500001,"end":788.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":788.7178437500002,"end":791.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":791.9578437499999,"end":792.3459687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":792.10971875,"end":795.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":795.40034375,"end":807.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":802.97721875,"end":802.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":802.99409375,"end":803.5847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":804.4453437500001,"end":804.6984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":807.34784375,"end":807.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":807.3815937500001,"end":811.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":810.0984687500002,"end":812.1572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":812.1572187500001,"end":814.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":813.10221875,"end":814.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":814.67159375,"end":816.30846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.85,"end":19.764,"text":"好,謝謝主席。有請部長。請許部長。劉仁浩。部長喔。部長要走了。"},{"start":20.816,"end":41.936,"text":"有沒有什麼話要說?謝謝啦 這個在衛福委員會我在所有的委員的這個指教跟支持下也推動了很多政策跟法案那當然還有很多努力的空間那就留待給下一位我們何部長來繼續努力 謝謝"},{"start":45.419,"end":47.761,"text":"之前的那個五戶集團的那個"},{"start":74.613,"end":93.865,"text":"應該是五五集團他們的餐飲。竭力啦。竭力。他是在去年的時候無預警的宣布倒閉嘛。那旗下品牌的相關在台的這個模式將近三十天也突然結束營業。那許多的這個員工都是臨時收到通知。是員工上班上到一半。"},{"start":94.865,"end":114.291,"text":"被同事不用上班了。總計大概有500名員工因此失業嘛。那根據勞動部有回報本席的辦公室是說相關的員工其實都已經有做妥適的安排與協助。有,因為在餐飲業很缺工啦,所以那個轉閒轉業沒有問題。好。啊那個,如果他那個資遣費,其實我們有一些電廠,我們那個電廠機制也都會"},{"start":118.152,"end":123.899,"text":"我知道我知道,這個有回復我清楚了齁,但是我現在想說這個是我們回過頭來看啦齁,就是說這個集團當時有申請大量解雇嗎?沒有,沒有嘛。對,但是負責人已經不見了啦。"},{"start":138.089,"end":150.26,"text":"因為負責人不見消失了嘛,所以你要處罰他也處罰不到嘛。好,那我現在回過頭來討論這個事情,我現在要提到叫做預警機制嘛。我們大集會裡面是有設這個預警的機制。"},{"start":153.183,"end":173.595,"text":"也就是說雇用勞工三十年以上的事業單位有下列情形者之一啦有相關單位或人員向主管機關通報嘛 對不對這其中裡面它包括123基建工資、勞健保、全部或主要營業之部分停工第三決議併購或最近兩年曾發生重大勞資爭議嘛 對不對好"},{"start":176.616,"end":193.602,"text":"這個是我們在大型款裡面第11條有這個設置這樣的一個預警的一個機制但是他的123款裡面跟剛剛我提的這個這家的這個龍頭的這個餐飲業的狀態有適用嗎?他都沒有發生這個狀況對嘛對嘛所以這個預警機制對這個事件來講是沒有作用的應該是怎麼說嗎?"},{"start":203.997,"end":224.61,"text":"我是講第一個樣態因為這家公司他涉入吸金案導致子公司受到影響所以他走到這個地步其實坦白講是不難預料是不難預料然後地方人勞工局應該是啟動這個預警機制他要啟動但是依據我們的第11條好像又沒有他這樣的一個樣態要怎麼去啟動然後再來"},{"start":231.092,"end":233.154,"text":"應該是接受到負責人的命令或"},{"start":258.9,"end":285.098,"text":"我是要去提供這樣的一個樣態等一下我再提供一個樣態給部長跟市長做參考我調出這個我們大量解僱勞工保護法裡面的一個修法歷程大量解僱勞工保護法其實最近一次修法是在104年那個時候是配有主改名稱改而已然後會變勞動部再來離那一次之後再往前一次是97年民國97年也就是說從97年到現在已經將近16年"},{"start":290.501,"end":304.114,"text":"這個大量解雇勞工保護法並沒有去做任何的修正,除了一個主改,改名稱而已。這個部分要請部長思考,跟市長思考一下。同樣在這16年內,我們也遇到了這個109年的時候,"},{"start":306.256,"end":332.053,"text":"爆發COVID-19的這個疫情當時有申請大量解雇的案件從平均每年200多件一口氣飆升到364件將近70%的成長然後通報解雇人數高達14500多人依據大解法的第4條規定社會單位大量解雇勞工時應在60日前提出解雇計畫書"},{"start":333.735,"end":344.515,"text":"那只有天災、事變或突發事件天災、事變及突發事件才能不受60日的限制但是在109年的疫情"},{"start":345.171,"end":372.236,"text":"未依規定60日前提出解雇計畫書遭罰的案件就有43件了。110年有32件、111有22件、12有30件、去年還有30件。但是我要請教部長,這個疫情到底算不算天災?到底算不算事變?到底算不算突發事件?不是,他現在是說疫情,其實這個應該我是覺得"},{"start":374.508,"end":375.157,"text":"還不至於60天．"},{"start":376.505,"end":385.107,"text":"市長講不屬於在、天災、事變、土豪事件。但是部長你對法律也是有你的專業、有你的經驗。但是你看這個COVID-19的疫情誰當時料想得到?誰料想得到它會多久?"},{"start":406.232,"end":418.361,"text":"對不對?沒人想到啦。然後當時的船運又出了多大問題。整個運輸又出了什麼樣的一個狀況。這個難道都不算在突發事件裡面嗎?突發事件裡面嗎?"},{"start":422.886,"end":449.815,"text":"這不人想會搞的啊好 那我再用一個例子給部長跟市長做參考嘛我這邊有個案例嘉義縣有某這個經營家具外銷公司主要是因為疫情訂單減少以及臨時得知客戶無法無法付款屬突發事件照理講他是應該不受60日前的這個通報限制的但勞動部書院委員會認為他是講他是這麼講說全球疫情已持續一段時間"},{"start":451.175,"end":457.739,"text":"持續一段時間可事先預知訂單將會減少。相關的營運及人事管理應由所準備並非不可預見緊急事件也因此違反大清法第4條規定處時到50萬的罰款"},{"start":478.018,"end":500.648,"text":"我想這個個案判斷我這邊要尊重勞動部的稅務委員會的決定我不是要探討這件事情的實際上採取的內容但是我是強調說當你要去做出這樣的採取過程裡面你所續名這樣的理由我會覺得我會覺得好像可以論述再更完整一點我是覺得這樣有點簡單因為"},{"start":505.02,"end":533.2,"text":"你跟我都一樣吶吼,包含應該衆議院委員會的委員都一樣沒有人有辦法去預估怎麼會有這樣的疫情啊這個疫情到底要延續多久沒有一個人有辦法去把這個事情去預見那我們怎麼相對要求業主相對的在產業界的這些人他有辦法去預見這樣的事情那不可能的事啊所以我是要舉這兩個樣態然後又16年沒有修這個大街法"},{"start":534.272,"end":553.731,"text":"是不是在部長要臨別秋去的時候,留下美麗的身影。這事情是不是可以在你要介於畢業之前,可以來思考、發動。是不是來處理當然解僱法,勞工保護法。當然解僱勞工的保護法。"},{"start":555.633,"end":555.753,"text":"來,第二題齁"},{"start":577.441,"end":594.926,"text":"403大地震濫這個花蓮成為重災區那花蓮縣府已經獲得兩家旅宿業者的申請大量解雇嘛分別申報83人及4人共有116人要失業但是同月4月23日又餘震再增加了一間花蓮的這個富凱飯店傾倒那預計兩週內就必須要拆除這個飯店的建築"},{"start":600.865,"end":615.263,"text":"我想這個換天他也一定符合大計劃第4條所定的天災事變或突發事件嘛齁那如果這項換天再提出大量解雇的申請花園就有三家了啦花園就有三家我是要說"},{"start":616.604,"end":634.251,"text":"花蓮這次地震掉了這個10億光光的產值那可能還會再增加也不一定那接下來又是暑假的檔期真的是非常不樂觀所以可能會有相關的聯動性的業者也會去啟動這個大量解雇的這樣的一個狀況會陸續出現那我必須要講說"},{"start":639.233,"end":656.383,"text":"因為大量解雇和失業的員工,透過勞動部的就業服務的轉介,要在花蓮找到相同性質的工作,不簡單了,一定難度嘛,而且它是整個,它絕對不是一個單一的旅宿業的倒閉嘛,所以整個花蓮區域性的產業問題,這個真的是"},{"start":658.624,"end":659.024,"text":"但是重點就是說我現在有專人"},{"start":679.398,"end":694.729,"text":"正在目前花蓮的整個狀況包括勞工的這些失業、就業這些需要幫忙的我們有專人在處理那隨時也都跟花蓮縣政府這邊保持聯繫我們就是即時的援助就是說"},{"start":697.031,"end":718.613,"text":"但是就像剛剛委員講的因為畢竟他現在整個是觀光產業都受影響有時候轉業因為可能不像說在西部這麼方便所以要跨域也會有困難不過現在是我們至少還有一個零工措施或者失業給付還可以撐一些時間不過其他的產業部分我們是現在透過"},{"start":719.594,"end":740.684,"text":"就是說雖然沒有辦法到那邊去旅遊或什麼的那其他產業我們用其他的方式比如網購或什麼來支持那讓這些產業他可能會增加用人的需求然後能夠去解決這些問題那其實我那天也我們署長也上個禮拜先過去了我叫他去現場瞭解那可能要瞭解後續還有些問題我們要先"},{"start":742.525,"end":758.977,"text":"要有一些預先的規劃要有前瞻的規劃因為這個影響是會持續到一段相當的時間看怎麼幫忙就像我們當初疫情先做最壞的打算做最好的準備所以也謝謝委員提醒我們這個都來全盤的關注"},{"start":761.679,"end":773.736,"text":"對,所以剛才部長特別提到嘛,預先嘛齁,還是說預估嘛、預防嘛,包含剛才我特別提到大節晚裡面的預警嘛齁,這其實預防剩餘一些的證項嘛,這個我們大家都很清楚齁。"},{"start":774.383,"end":795.713,"text":"那過去我們也有921的這麼嚴重的大跡象．比花蓮這個大跡象當然更嚴重到N倍以上當時怎麼去做因應、怎麼去預估、怎麼去做預宣的一些事情我想這個部分來不可能要協同交通部、協同經濟部對、對、對就跨部會我們跨部會來行政院有召開相關的跨部會會議來協助那當然希望部長在所謹慎的"},{"start":800.185,"end":800.325,"text":"謝謝劉建國委員"}]}},{"id":"151769","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151769","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce150758d76e68d5212ac97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed0d6c0f0b264154b055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:34:58 - 12:49:42","影片長度":"00:14:44","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":884,"end_time":"2024-04-25T12:49:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T12:34:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1168,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時35分）謝謝主席，我們先請原民會社福處羅處長。"],["主席：請羅處長。"],["羅處長赫踛：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：羅處長好。我今天的問題很簡單，就是原住民男性從事營建工程的比例占了24.76%，所以每四位原住民勞工就有一位從事營造業。再來就是我在去年4月12號就有提案，主要是因為政府從112年重新開放營造業引進外籍勞工，我們非常擔心會嚴重排擠到原住民勞工的就業機會。這不只是我的擔心而已，我想很多族人都有面臨到這樣的問題，所以我特別在去年4月12號提案要求補助事業單位促進原住民族就業計畫，那到底要等到什麼時候才可以送到勞動部來排案？我特別關心這個問題，因為不是只有我關心，在我提出之後，有好幾位原住民的立委，不分黨派都緊盯著我，然後跟著我的後面，一直很用力的在支持這樣的案子，所以要請教你這個時程。"],["羅處長赫踛：跟委員報告一下，我們在3月的時候有分別拜訪就業安定基金委員會裡面的兩位委員，希望徵求委員更多的指導來完善我們那個計畫，目前已經完成這個事項，也做好相關的方案，然後我們最近也透過國會組，希望先到委員那邊，先跟委員再去做一個說明……"],["陳委員瑩：所以你就是還沒有排嘛，然後我現在要問你，什麼時候要送到勞動部去排案？"],["羅處長赫踛：對，如果這一期的就業安定基金有開會的話，我們會以最近一期的那部分先去做一個提案，目前大概也是因為在交接期間，我們也要先跟新的主委去報告這個事情，那長官是非常關心。以上。"],["陳委員瑩：所以520之前還不會送嘛？"],["羅處長赫踛：是，應該是在520之後。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你到底什麼時候才要送？"],["羅處長赫踛：我們……"],["陳委員瑩：我怕你等到下一任上任，又說要等下下一任的交接。"],["羅處長赫踛：我們會儘快，因為已經差不多研議完成了。"],["陳委員瑩：都差不多了，是不是？"],["羅處長赫踛：是，那我會再跟委員報告。"],["陳委員瑩：你可不可以自己給自己一個期許、一個日期，520交接之後要接任的主委現在也在你們會裡面，也是常常可以見面，你們都很熟嘛。"],["羅處長赫踛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：都可以事先先討論，看他的態度怎麼樣。"],["羅處長赫踛：好，我會儘快來跟……"],["陳委員瑩：我覺得你自己給個日期嘛，還是說你接下來會不會留任也不知道？"],["羅處長赫踛：是，要看勞動部他們最近召開的時間，我們再……"],["陳委員瑩：要看勞動部召開的時間你才要送，這樣不是很奇怪？"],["羅處長赫踛：就是那個召開就業安定基金委員會的……"],["陳委員瑩：你要先送給他們！"],["羅處長赫踛：對，我們儘快送。"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！你要送給他們，他們才召開，不是嗎？"],["羅處長赫踛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：那你怎麼會說等他們什麼時候召開你們才要送，你在講什麼？"],["羅處長赫踛：他們應該是半年召開一次。"],["陳委員瑩：蛤？"],["羅處長赫踛：對，我是說，對，只要有召開……"],["陳委員瑩：我這麼簡單問你一個問題，我就是問日期而已，你就不能講個日期嗎？"],["羅處長赫踛：那是不是差不多520之後，大概在6月的時候，我們是希望可以送出去。"],["陳委員瑩：所以你到時候還會在社福處，是不是？這個應該事先，就乾脆在交接前，你們可以就先送了嘛。"],["羅處長赫踛：好，那我們儘快。"],["陳委員瑩：就莫名其妙，這個事情去年到現在講那麼久了，你竟然還要等到新任的主委來交接，然後才可以處理好這件事情。怎麼簡單一個日期的問題，問到現在我的時間剩下4分鐘，好吧，你先下去，這個事情我覺得交接前就可以先送的，難道夷將當主委講的話都不算嗎？做的決定也都不算嗎？你們趕工一下嘛。"],["羅處長赫踛：是。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。麻煩主席再請蔡署長，還有條平司黃司長。"],["主席：請蔡署長、黃司長。"],["蔡署長孟良：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：好，我要講一下這個我覺得蠻嚴重的問題，你們先看一下這個廣告的傳單，這裡面的內容是不是正確？然後這個部分攸關外籍勞工的權益。黃司長，性別平等工作法有沒有第二十一條之一？"],["黃司長維琛：是第二十條第一項。"],["陳委員瑩：好，其實這個法就是沒有第二十一條之一，我沒有講錯，我只是問問題，沒有就講沒有，你也沒有回答錯。好，這個傳單的內容應該就是指第二十一條，前提就是外勞先要有參加就業保險，那我就要請教，外籍勞工他們可不可以參加就業保險？"],["黃司長維琛：外籍勞工不能參加就業保險。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝，正確。那我就直接單刀直入的問了，所以裡面所提到的各項權益包括有薪產檢假、陪產檢假還有產假、安胎休養請假、育嬰留職停薪以及家庭照顧假等部分是不是都適用於外籍勞工？"],["黃司長維琛：在這些假的部分有適用，申請育嬰留職停薪的話，會沒有津貼。"],["陳委員瑩：好，更何況這個部分有涉及準爸爸的權益以及這個家庭，所以我要請教外籍勞工雙方可不可以在我國登記結婚？"],["蔡署長孟良：報告委員，是可以，根據移民法……"],["陳委員瑩：他們可以結婚，但是可不可以登記結婚？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，據我們瞭解，目前移民署是說在國內他們可以登記結婚。"],["陳委員瑩：可以登記結婚？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，據我瞭解依法是可以。"],["陳委員瑩：你確定？勞動部有沒有不同的意見？你要先弄清楚法規，我明明看到就業保險法第五條的規定，你說可以登記結婚？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，跟委員報告，在過去確實有發生過案例，我們有請教過移民署，目前在移民法的規定其實是沒有排除的。"],["陳委員瑩：所以現在是可以登記結婚？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，可以登記，但是他不能……"],["陳委員瑩：可以認定準爸爸？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，但是他不能以這個為理由來改變他的居留身分。"],["陳委員瑩：我知道，我是打問號，對於到底能不能登記結婚這件事情，我覺得我們可能都需要再……"],["蔡署長孟良：委員，是不是我們會後再進一步把它明確化？"],["陳委員瑩：你們現在要不要先問一下？我一邊質詢然後你們先問一下。"],["蔡署長孟良：我們瞭解一下。"],["陳委員瑩：因為我不太清楚是我沒有跟上他們修改的腳步還是怎麼樣。黃司長，你先請回座。接下來我要請你們看另外一張傳單，這是宣稱由彰化縣政府委託就安基金補助的宣導資料，那我請問蔡署長，你們有沒有補助這樣的內容？"],["蔡署長孟良：跟委員報告，關於外國人生育諮詢服務中心這個部分，目前這個應該是彰化縣政府補助。"],["陳委員瑩：這個裡面有提到可以解約後60天申請暫緩轉換雇主，那產後60天內可以申請恢復轉換雇主，並且延長60天的工作期限，我想請教這是真的嗎？有法源依據嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：懷孕移工跟雇主雙方可能因為工作上沒有辦法調配……"],["陳委員瑩：所以這個沒有問題嘛！"],["蔡署長孟良：他們解約後這個是可以，我們有這樣的協助。"],["陳委員瑩：好，那這個沒有問題，根據勞動基法第五十條第一項的規定，在生小孩前後可以請8個星期的產假，我們在這裡先不討論流產假的部分，我國勞工的產假是56天，外籍勞工的產假有60天，比我國的勞工更多嗎？他們60天，我們56天。"],["蔡署長孟良：委員，這裡的60天是他在解約之後，他可能因為在轉換雇主這個時間，我們大概會有60天。"],["陳委員瑩：對，這個不管啦！簡單來講，結論就是我國勞工的產假是56天，但是外籍勞工可以有60天，這個就是結論啦！對不對？好，不管中間怎麼樣，結論目前就是這個樣子。我們今天指出了這兩張傳單，我覺得好像勞動部都在鼓勵外籍勞工在臺灣生育，而且福利待遇甚至比本國勞工還要更好，在這個傳單裡面都有單位名稱還有聯絡的方式，但是也沒有看到勞動部有做任何的澄清或說明，說明我國非常重視外籍勞工的權益，而不是鼓勵他們在臺灣非法生育。如果說這些都是真的，那這麼重要的權益措施你們應該要發布新聞稿，並在官網上面公布，而不是讓人家這樣子宣傳，導致有很多人誤解。署長，你後續會不會有正式的相關公布或澄清說明？"],["蔡署長孟良：謝謝委員提醒我們，因為我們也發現有些訊息可能不正確，我們會再重新檢討。"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！否則大家就覺得太好了，我們都來這裡非法生小孩。如果這個資料是錯誤的，請問有沒有意圖透過協助保障外籍勞工權益而實際上是來獲得你們這個安置費用的補助？你會不會有這樣子的聯想？"],["蔡署長孟良：是，如果有這樣的情形，我覺得我們應該要去改正它。"],["陳委員瑩：對啊！我想我們在這裡做一個合理的懷疑跟推論，你們也應該要去查明嘛！"],["蔡署長孟良：好。"],["陳委員瑩：這家彰化縣國際勞工關懷協會是不是你們補助安置費用的單位？"],["蔡署長孟良：這個應該不是我們補助的單位！"],["陳委員瑩：這不是嗎？"],["蔡署長孟良：不是。"],["陳委員瑩：你們再好好確認一下。"],["蔡署長孟良：我們再確認一下。"],["陳委員瑩：如果他們提供不正確的訊息，打著你們勞動部的名義去誤導，有沒有違反規定？這樣可不可以再跟你們申請安置費用的補助？"],["蔡署長孟良：委員，我們會後馬上去瞭解它目前的情形。"],["陳委員瑩：好，今天這兩張小小的廣告傳單，其實很像以前你們遇到利用受訓補助然後欺騙民眾自費去參訓，我們現在對於外籍勞工在臺灣懷孕生小孩、這個黑戶寶寶的問題，其實已經頭很大了，勞動部對於他們的懷孕問題應該要有一個明確的態度，不能睜一隻眼閉一隻眼，你們如果等問題出來然後再用個案去處理，這樣大家會很有壓力，因為我們被一個人權的大旗壓著，所以問題再丟給衛福部跟縣市政府去收尾嘛！這裡面還有很多涉及到雇主的權益，那我們也不能說這樣我們就要求雇主，然後他們無預期的就是要接受外籍勞工懷孕去生小孩。我也是很好奇，就是以前我們都沒有這方面的問題，反而在我國更重視他們的權益，在給了更多、更好的保障之後，問題卻是越來越多，我想我們提供很多的保障是沒有問題，但是方法如果造成後續很嚴重的問題，那我們就要好好的來檢討，總不能什麼都推給雇主跟仲介去配合啊！署長，你怎麼看？"],["蔡署長孟良：對，非常謝謝委員，這個其實一定要衡平雇主跟勞工雙方之間的權益，我想對這個部分後續相關的一些處理跟規劃，我們都會注意這一點。"],["陳委員瑩：好，最後我在這邊要謝謝蔡署長，也對你表達肯定，因為畢竟你在防疫期間臨危受命，也順利解決了這個外籍勞工防疫破口的隱憂，還有一些錯綜複雜的政策，所以背後都要有署長站在第一線去處理這些問題，也有看到你的身影。那我想要做一個提醒，就是外籍勞工懷孕生子的問題在未來只會越來越多，彰化縣這個外國人生育諮詢服務中心不等同它是一個生育鼓勵中心，這是不一樣的，所以我要在這裡要求你們一定要很努力的透過非常強力、強化的管理，不管是外籍勞工或者仲介還是接受補助單位的管理，特別是宣導內容尺寸的拿捏，都要跟你們勞動部的態度是一致的，我希望以後不要再看到這種東西。"],["蔡署長孟良：好，我們來跟彰化縣政府針對它的內容再做一些檢討。"],["陳委員瑩：好，謝謝。"],["蔡署長孟良：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳瑩委員。報告委員會，現場林倩綺委員有登記，因為未及發言，要求同意於劉建國委員發言結束後發言。","我們現在請劉建國委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.37659375,"end":2.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.67471875,"end":16.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.70346875,"end":17.867843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":25.47846875,"end":26.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.47409375,"end":46.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.369718750000004,"end":50.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":51.010343750000004,"end":60.257843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.375968750000006,"end":63.143468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":63.430343750000006,"end":69.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":70.18034375,"end":92.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.53971875,"end":101.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.07409375,"end":105.98909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.52909375,"end":111.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.31721875000001,"end":116.11409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.46846875000001,"end":119.06721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.25284375000001,"end":121.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.14284375000001,"end":124.92284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":125.27721875,"end":132.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.33534375000002,"end":136.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.71846875,"end":138.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.83221875,"end":151.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.72034375,"end":156.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.86721875,"end":160.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.57971875,"end":162.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.54159375,"end":163.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.76909375,"end":164.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.41034375,"end":167.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.92034375,"end":171.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.12659375,"end":172.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.76784375,"end":174.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.93221875,"end":185.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.75721875000002,"end":186.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.87534375,"end":185.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.06096875,"end":187.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.96784375000001,"end":190.60034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.23346875000001,"end":192.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":192.11909375000002,"end":197.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.24096875,"end":201.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.87284375000002,"end":206.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":203.57721875000001,"end":206.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.93096875,"end":209.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":209.01096875000002,"end":211.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.76159375,"end":212.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":212.40284375000002,"end":216.99284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.05221875,"end":216.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.99284375000002,"end":218.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.76471875000001,"end":219.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.65471875,"end":222.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.75159375,"end":225.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.89846875,"end":228.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.02909375000002,"end":228.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.16409375,"end":228.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.31596875000002,"end":228.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.43409375000002,"end":235.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.16721875000002,"end":237.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":238.23846875,"end":238.82909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.93034375000002,"end":245.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":245.73096875000002,"end":247.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":247.75596875000002,"end":248.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.41409375,"end":255.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.31159375000004,"end":258.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.02409375,"end":260.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.61471875,"end":261.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.50471875,"end":266.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":267.56721875,"end":277.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":278.83971875000003,"end":281.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.31221875,"end":280.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.35409375,"end":282.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":281.40471875000003,"end":281.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.87284375,"end":285.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.27721875000003,"end":290.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":288.01971875000004,"end":288.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.98971875,"end":291.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":292.10346875,"end":294.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.38159375000004,"end":299.12346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.79846875000004,"end":305.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.19409375000004,"end":308.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.30346875000004,"end":311.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.06659375000004,"end":315.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.45409375,"end":319.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.72784375000003,"end":333.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.08846875,"end":338.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.69534375,"end":339.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.48846875000004,"end":343.35284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":343.82534375,"end":345.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.93471875,"end":350.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.75659375000004,"end":353.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":352.93784375,"end":354.60846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.89534375,"end":373.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.92596875000004,"end":375.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.07346875,"end":382.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":378.87471875,"end":379.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":382.23284375000003,"end":382.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.04284375000003,"end":383.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.49409375000005,"end":391.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.68284375,"end":401.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.18346875000003,"end":402.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.18721875,"end":404.25471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.79471875,"end":408.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":404.81159375000004,"end":405.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":407.84909375,"end":410.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.24096875000004,"end":418.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.47596875000005,"end":421.01159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.03284375000004,"end":421.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":422.41221875,"end":423.20534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":425.55096875000004,"end":427.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.61409375000005,"end":428.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.49096875000004,"end":435.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.96284375000005,"end":437.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.97034375000004,"end":444.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.20221875000004,"end":453.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.78721875,"end":456.70221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.18784375,"end":455.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.32659375000003,"end":462.50721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.30471875,"end":466.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.97909375,"end":470.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.13909375000003,"end":473.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.23534375,"end":477.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.86784375,"end":477.89721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":477.89721875000004,"end":481.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.40284375000005,"end":485.57534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":486.04784375,"end":490.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.77284375000005,"end":502.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.47971875,"end":514.4990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":514.6003437500001,"end":516.5578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":514.85346875,"end":532.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":530.9184687500001,"end":543.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.44471875,"end":538.5122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":538.9678437499999,"end":541.12784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.33846875,"end":556.5009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":557.14221875,"end":567.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":568.3472187500001,"end":570.5915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.05534375,"end":573.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":573.88221875,"end":583.6359687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":583.04534375,"end":588.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":584.59784375,"end":584.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":589.22159375,"end":595.0434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":595.56659375,"end":602.1984687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":603.39659375,"end":617.1497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":617.47034375,"end":630.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":630.85221875,"end":652.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":650.54534375,"end":650.7309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.18221875,"end":659.96159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":659.0334687500001,"end":662.1384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":662.62784375,"end":672.5672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":672.88784375,"end":675.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":676.22909375,"end":680.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":680.0090937500001,"end":692.2265937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":692.2265937500001,"end":695.1965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":693.69471875,"end":698.3015937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":695.80409375,"end":698.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":698.62221875,"end":705.4734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":705.92909375,"end":708.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":708.5615937500002,"end":711.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":711.81846875,"end":730.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":731.10659375,"end":739.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":740.13471875,"end":751.4072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":751.5590937500001,"end":755.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":755.28846875,"end":766.3078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":766.79721875,"end":790.0847187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":790.43909375,"end":800.3953437500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":800.3953437500002,"end":810.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":810.70596875,"end":875.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":875.52284375,"end":875.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":875.53971875,"end":880.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":875.7084687500001,"end":876.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":881.17596875,"end":881.9353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":881.9353437500001,"end":882.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":882.40784375,"end":882.5090937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.701,"end":14.97,"text":"好,現在主席我們先請那個社福處羅處長,原民會請羅處長"},{"start":25.509,"end":27.67,"text":"因為我們在去年"},{"start":51.421,"end":72.615,"text":"我4月12日就提案那因為主要是我們這個政府從112年重新開放這個營造業外籍勞工的引進我們是非常擔心會嚴重排擠到原住民勞工的就業那這不是只是我的擔心而已其實是我想很多的族人都有面臨到這樣的問題"},{"start":73.976,"end":101.368,"text":"那所以我特別在去年4月12號有提案要求要補助事業單位促進原住民族就業計畫那到底要等到什麼時候才可以送到勞動部來排案我特別關心這個問題因為不是只有我關心在我提出之後有好幾位原住民的立委不分黨派都緊盯著我然後跟著我的後面一直在很用力的在"},{"start":102.828,"end":130.977,"text":"支持這樣的案子所以要請教你這個時程跟委員報告一下那我們在3月的時候有分別派訪就在安定基金委員會裡面的兩位委員希望徵求委員更多的一些指導來去完善我們那個計畫那目前已經完成這個事項那也做好一些相關的一個方案然後我們最近是也透過國會組也希望先到委員那邊先跟委員再去做一個說明"},{"start":131.597,"end":160.176,"text":"所以你就是還沒有排嗎?那我現在問你什麼時候要送到勞動部去排案嗎?對,那如果是這一期的就業案第1屆開會有的我們會以最近的一起的那個部分會先去做一個提案那目前是因為也大概是在交接期間我們也要先跟新的主委要去報告這個事情那長官是非常關心以上所以那個5月520之前是還不會送嗎?是"},{"start":161.776,"end":187.101,"text":"所以你到底什麼時候才要送?我怕你等到下一任上任又說要等下一任的交接。已經是差不多研議完成了。都差不多了是不是?那你可不可以自己給自己一個期許、一個日期?520交接之後。現在那個要接任的主委也在你們會裡面,也是常常可以見面,你們都很熟嘛。是。就可以事先"},{"start":188.101,"end":192.784,"text":"要看勞動部他們最近召開的那個時間的部分。你要看勞動部召開的時間才要送,這樣不是很奇怪,你要先送給他們。"},{"start":208.144,"end":225.459,"text":"對,我們盡快送。對,你要送給他們,他們才召開,不是嗎?是。你怎麼會說等他們什麼時候召開,你們才要送?應該是半年召開一次。對,我是說...對,那只要我...我這麼簡單問你一個問題,我就是問日期而已,你就不能..."},{"start":227.406,"end":246.642,"text":"講個日期嗎?那是不是委員大概差不多在5月、大概在6月的時候我們是希望可以送出去這樣子。所以你到時候還會在社福處是不是?這個應該是先就就要就就乾脆先在交接前你們可以先就先送了嗎?"},{"start":247.808,"end":248.469,"text":"問到現在剩下4分鐘。"},{"start":267.642,"end":285.329,"text":"好吧,你先下去吧。這個事情我覺得交接前就可以先送的。難道一這樣當主委講的話都不算嗎?做的決定也都不算嗎?你們感功一下嘛。好,謝謝。麻煩再請那個蔡署長。"},{"start":287.418,"end":314.187,"text":"還有這個蔡署長、調評司黃司長黃司長好,我要講一下這個這個我覺得蠻嚴重的問題你們先看一下這個廣告單廣告的傳單這裡面的內容是不是正確然後攸關這個外籍勞工的權益這個部分因為你看這個性別平等工作法那個黃司長有沒有第21支一條"},{"start":316.505,"end":336.684,"text":"是20條第一項好只有其實他就是沒有21之一啦我沒有講錯我只是問問題沒有就沒有對你也沒有回答錯好那如果傳單內容指的是就是說你這個傳單的內容應該就是指21條嘛"},{"start":338.746,"end":349.637,"text":"那前提就是外勞先要有參加就業保險那我就要請教外籍勞工他們可不可以參加就業保險"},{"start":351.846,"end":373.332,"text":"外籍勞工不能參加就業保險。好,謝謝。正確。那我想我就直接單刀直入的問了齁。那所以裡面所提到的這個各項權益有包括有薪產檢、賠產檢還有產假、安胎休養跟這個育嬰留職停薪以及這個家庭照顧的部分是不是都適用於外籍勞工?"},{"start":376.22,"end":402.027,"text":"在這些架的部分有適用那那個運營留持停薪的話會沒有薪資沒有津貼好那因為這個部分更何況有涉及到這個準爸爸準爸爸喔準爸爸的權益以及這個家庭所以外籍勞工雙方我要請教說他們雙方可不可以在我國登記結婚可以"},{"start":404.864,"end":428.498,"text":"登記結婚是可以移民法他們可以結婚阿可不可以登記結婚跟委員報我們了解目前移民署是可以在國內他們在登記的結婚是可以的可以登記結婚對我了解是可以依法你確定是跟委員報勞動部有沒有不同的意見"},{"start":431.533,"end":456.417,"text":"你要先弄清楚法規我明明看到這個就業保險法第5條可以你說可以登記結婚對對因為跟文貌因為這個過去確實因為有發生過案例我們有請教過移民所那他目前他們在移民法的規定其實沒有拍過所以現在是可以登記結婚對是可以登記但是他不能可以認定準爸爸"},{"start":457.629,"end":473.682,"text":"對,但是他不能依這個理由作為他改變他的居留身份。我知道我是打問號啦,到底能不能登記結婚,這件事情我覺得我們可能都需要在……我會後我們再進一步按照我們在進一步再把它明確化。"},{"start":474.318,"end":501.844,"text":"你們現在要不要先問一下我一邊質詢你們先問一下我們了解一下是因為我不太清楚是我沒有跟上這個這個他們的修改的腳步還是怎麼樣那再來就是那個黃市長你先請回座那個我是接下來我要請你們看另外一張傳單這是宣稱由彰化縣政府委託救安基金補助的宣導資料那我請問蔡署長你們有沒有補助這樣的內容"},{"start":504.313,"end":530.1,"text":"跟委員報告那個外國人生育諮詢服務中心這個部分目前我們應該這個是應該限服對這個理念是有提到說可以解約後60天申請暫緩轉換雇主那產後60天內可以申請恢復轉換雇主並且延長60天的工作期限我想請教這是真的嗎"},{"start":531.44,"end":554.752,"text":"這是說如果這個懷孕移工他跟僱主因為雙方可能因為工作上沒有辦法這樣調備之下解約後這個是可以我們有這樣的一個協助好那這個沒有問題那根據這個勞動基準法第50條第一項的規定在生小孩前後可以請八個星期的產假那我們這裡先不討論這個流產假的部分"},{"start":557.213,"end":568.577,"text":"我國的勞工產假是56天。所以外籍勞工的產假有60天,比我國的勞工更多嗎?他們60,我們56天。"},{"start":574.772,"end":600.928,"text":"我們這裡的60天他是說如果他因為解約之後那可能他因為在轉彎僱主這個時間我們大概會有60天對嘛 這個不管啦 我說簡單來講就是產假結論啊產假我國的勞工是56天但外籍的勞工可以有60天嘛這個就是結論啊 對不對好 這個不管中間怎麼樣你的結論目前就是這個樣子嘛那我們今天指出了這兩張傳單"},{"start":603.442,"end":629.994,"text":"我是覺得因為好像勞動部都在鼓勵外籍勞工在台灣生育而且福利待遇甚至比本國勞工還要更好那這個傳單裡面都有單位名稱還有這個聯絡的方式但也沒有看到勞動部說有任何的這個澄清或說明說明說我國是非常重視外籍勞工的權益而不是鼓勵他們在台灣非法生育"},{"start":630.882,"end":645.959,"text":"好,那所以如果說這些都是真的那這麼重要的這個權益措施你們應該要發布新聞稿並在這個官網上面公佈嘛而不是讓人家這樣子宣傳讓很多人去誤解"},{"start":647.46,"end":675.154,"text":"那所以你後續,署長你後續會不會有正式相關的公佈或澄清說明?好,這個委員謝謝,謝謝委員提醒我們因為我們也發現這個有些訊息可能不是一個正確對啊,大家都覺得太好了我們都來這裡非法生小孩好,如果這個資料是錯誤的那請問有沒有意圖透過協助保障外籍勞動權益而實際上是來獲得你們的安置費用的補助你會不會有這樣子的聯想?"},{"start":677.948,"end":691.696,"text":"對,我想我們在這裡做一個合理的懷疑跟推論,你們也應該要去查明嗎?好,這家彰化縣國際勞工關懷協會是不是你們安置補助的單位?是不是?"},{"start":692.736,"end":711.664,"text":"這個應該不是喔,不是我們的安置單位。不是不是。你們再確認,好好確認一下,如果他們提供不正確的訊息打著你們勞動部的名義去誤導,有沒有違反規定,可不可以,就是這樣可不可以就是說再跟你們申請安置的這個補助。我們會馬上去了解他的目前的一個。"},{"start":713.265,"end":726.952,"text":"今天這兩張小小的廣告傳單其實很像以前你們遇到利用授訊補助然後欺騙民眾自費去參訊那我們現在呢就是對於外籍勞工在台灣這個懷孕生小孩這個黑戶寶寶的問題其實已經頭很大了"},{"start":731.458,"end":749.997,"text":"勞動部對於說他們的懷孕問題應該要有一個明確的態度不能睜一隻眼閉一隻眼那因為問題出來你們如果問題出來然後再用個案去處理然後因為我們這樣大家會很有壓力嘛因為我們有一個人權的這個大旗"},{"start":751.699,"end":765.911,"text":"所以問題在丟給衛福部跟縣市政府去收尾嘛那這裡面還有很多涉及到雇主權益啊那我們也不能說啊就這樣我們就要求雇主然後無預期的就是要接受外籍勞工去懷孕生小孩"},{"start":767.232,"end":786.512,"text":"我也是很好奇就是說以前我們都沒有這方面的問題反而呢在我國更重視他們的權益給了很多的這個更多更好的保障之後呢問題卻是越來越多我想我們去保障並提供這個很多的保障是沒有問題"},{"start":788.073,"end":810.197,"text":"但是方法如果造成後續很嚴重的問題,那我們就要好好的來檢討嗎?總不能什麼都推給僱主跟仲介去配合啊?好,署長你怎麼看?對,我想非常謝謝委員。這個其實一定要橫平僱主的權益跟雙方之間。我想這個部分後續我們在相關的一些處理跟規劃我們都會注意這一點。"},{"start":811.208,"end":836.378,"text":"最後我還是在這邊要說謝謝蔡署長也給你表達肯定因為畢竟就是說在這個防疫期間你臨危受命那也就是順利解決這個外籍勞工這個防疫破口的隱憂還有一些錯綜複雜的一些政策所以背後都要有署長站在第一線去處理這些問題也有看到你的身影"},{"start":837.719,"end":856.952,"text":"我想要做個提醒就是目前外籍勞工懷孕生子的問題那未來只會越來越多那彰化縣這個外國人生育諮詢服務中心不等同說他是一個生育鼓勵中心這是不一樣的所以我要在這裡要求你們一定要"},{"start":857.312,"end":857.332,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151768","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151768","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce1529ebf0b2cbecc46420df1bb4ac2af973c68e374cd8c4bed0552700a2677dd5fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"12:42:47 - 12:49:59","影片長度":"00:07:12","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":432,"end_time":"2024-04-25T12:49:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T12:42:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1063,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（12時42分）有請次長，還有胡董事長。"],["主席：請王次長跟胡董事長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：次長好，本席在民間團體的時候就已經非常關心兒少節目，也擔任過十幾年兒少優質節目的評選，所以我非常關心我們的量能及發展，上次來質詢的時候，也是一樣針對這一部分提問，可是還是沒有看到你們後來提供給我的資料。其實就像你在專題報告裡面講的，影視是兒童認識世界，並形塑自我文化認同的重要管道，投資兒少內容就是對國家未來的投資。可是在文策院的一個報告裡面看到，我們這樣的投資在裡面有很多嗎？2017年到2021年整個播映節目內容分配的數據，我們可以看到兒童節目的播出比例大概未達1%，事實上是相當的低。","下一頁是公視提供的資料，過去我在NCC擔任電視臺評鑑跟申設委員的時候，我就一直在講，如果重播率非常高的話，表示這個電視臺對於自製節目裡面的投資是非常非常少，尤其兒少節目部分，真的看起來重播率非常非常的高，這種情況顯示我們的品質跟數量都是不足的，那也意味著缺乏新鮮多元的節目內容，這也會導致在娛樂選擇上的一些限制，難怪現在孩子都進入我們的網路，而網路我們現在又不可管控的時候，會引發更多的問題。所以在這邊也想跟公共電視再次的呼籲，是不是可以更加積極去推動兒童節目的製作，並且注重兒童節目的教育性跟文化價值？因為我們的文化傳承是要靠節目來做的。","去年10月25號公視辦的公視兒少奔放前行記者會，本席當天也在現場，在記者會當中宣布透過九大類節目開發，將資源投入兒少節目製作，並帶動兒少節目跟動畫產業鏈的發展，讓影視產業人才能夠續留臺灣，並製作更多有意義及更有創意的節目，讓兒少的製作產業產能形成正向循環。想請教一下董事長，有掌握九大類型節目的徵案狀況嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：跟委員報告，我們目前的確有6個案子已經順利發包出去，但有3個案目前來講並沒有達到我們預期的目標，所以我們會轉為自製，或者再找合適的單位來跟我們合作。"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝董事長。我最擔心的就是這個。因為今年1月的確在公開招標結果裡面，幼兒學習系列的帶狀節目及新住民母語學習，以及公視兒少IP的延續節目──「流言追追追」，這三項是廢標的狀態。我上次質詢時就一直在強調，臺灣的公視節目真的對兒少、對幼兒是非常、非常不足的，尤其是大量引進國外的卡通，沒有比較多我們自己自製的節目，反而最虧欠的是我們幼兒的這一塊。延續上一題，徵案之所以廢標，可能是經費不足，也有可能是人才不足，所以過去公共電視在節目製作時受限於經費預算，現在經費夠了，因為黑潮計畫，臺灣是否擁有足夠的團隊跟人才來應對，否則為什麼會有三項是廢標的狀態？如果要扶持的話，希望公視能夠謹慎考慮整體性的計畫規劃，是不是會後把你們孵育計畫的徵選提供給我？","接下來，要製作更多吸引家長跟孩子的內容，文策院也提出家長和小孩主動想看的原因是，對內容感興趣占67%，孩子觀看節目的主要決策者是家長，占59%。請問次長、董事長，你們是否親自觀看過你們公視長期以來播放的兒童節目？"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，誠如委員所說的，就是因為臺灣整體對兒少內容節目的產製能量過低，所以才要投資在公視上，請公視推出這個兒少頻道，來提升整個產製。就現在已經播出的節目，我們當然會觀看節目內容，因為也要兼看節目品質跟節目的情況，但是就整體的量來說，還是希望大院可以繼續支持，給公視一點時間，因為今年是第一年，第一年調整過預算，讓公視有機會有一個完整的預算是支持兒少內容的節目，給它一點時間，讓它在這個基礎上面，把臺灣整體能夠製作兒少節目內容的人、資金、公司、團隊建立起來，就長程來看，才比較可能會有一個健康的兒少節目製作環境，才有可能有比較好的播出時數及內容。"],["林委員月琴：好。不過如同我上次質詢時提到，現在我們的孩子最熟悉的人物是POLI、巧虎跟佩佩豬，我們到底有沒有能量去提升到跟國外一樣？尤其幼兒，我還是要再三強調，我們希望幼兒可以觀看我們公共電視的一些節目陪伴他們成長。你們文策院自己就有調查怎麼去製作出吸引家長跟孩子的內容，我覺得要去參酌這些意見，甚至要不要去普遍調查？臺灣不能一直依賴水果奶奶一個IP，我常常講說那個水果奶奶已經變曾祖母的曾祖母了，現在還在播放，有沒有其他的好節目來讓我們的孩子能夠受惠？"],["王次長時思：我想結合臺灣的IP，不管是在動畫上、音樂上、各種表現形式上的臺灣IP，這就是現在我們為什麼要推出臺灣自製兒少內容的基礎，如果不是有這些IP做基礎，我們也很難產製出我們希望臺灣可以製作的兒少節目，所以委員提示的這個方向，我想也是公視希望努力的方向。"],["林委員月琴：好，我會持續去關注並監督兒童節目的製作，希望節目內容跟品質能夠滿足兒童的需求，滿足兒童就包含幼兒，臺灣節目始終都很虧欠幼兒，所以要注意到這個方向。"],["王次長時思：有，公視有做分齡的規劃。"],["林委員月琴：對，可是以偏頗度來講，我覺得兒童真的占比較大，連我們的商業台都是以兒童為主，幼兒真的是很偏頗、很少，所以可能要注意到這個部分。以上，謝謝。"],["王次長時思：好的，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林月琴委員。","接下來請羅智強委員，羅智強、羅智強委員不在。","今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，另外有陳冠廷委員、羅智強委員提出書面質詢。關於今天會議作如下決定：報告及詢答完畢，委員所提書面質詢及相關資料列入紀錄，並刊登公報。對於委員質詢要求提供相關資料及未及答復部分，請相關機關儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","葉元之","陳培瑜","何欣純","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","范雲","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","林月琴","陳冠廷","羅智強"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫─ 公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.76034375,"end":13.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.51409375,"end":13.598468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.68284375,"end":28.937843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.24159375,"end":34.40534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.455968750000004,"end":59.127218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":59.38034375,"end":73.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.07846875,"end":122.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.41659375,"end":124.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.87221875,"end":140.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.29596875000001,"end":147.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":148.22721875000002,"end":165.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.29596875000001,"end":170.92409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.37971875000002,"end":177.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.67409375,"end":181.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.80846875,"end":182.75346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.39471875,"end":219.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.27909375000002,"end":223.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.36721875,"end":237.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.73221875000002,"end":246.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":246.40596875000003,"end":258.30284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.82159375000003,"end":282.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.51846875,"end":282.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.75034375,"end":284.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.03721875,"end":301.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.48159375,"end":302.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.39284375,"end":337.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.64096875,"end":336.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.66596875000005,"end":338.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.68284375,"end":338.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.86409375,"end":338.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.96534375000005,"end":380.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.73159375,"end":379.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.03909375,"end":400.79534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.79534375000003,"end":419.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.97846875000005,"end":417.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.59409375,"end":431.96346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.029,"end":28.059,"text":"有請我們的次長還有我們的胡董事長請王次長跟胡董事長本期在民間團體就已經非常關心兒少節目也擔任過十幾年兒少優質節目的評選所以我非常關心我們的量能跟發展上次來質詢的時候也是一樣的在針對這一部分"},{"start":29.7,"end":58.422,"text":"可是還是沒有看到你後來提供給我的資料也就是像你講的你在專題報告裡邊講影視是兒童認識世界並形塑自我文化認同的重要管道投資兒少內容就是對國家未來的投資可是看文策院的一個報告裡邊去看到我們這樣的投資裡邊有很多嗎2017年到2021年的整個播映節目的內容分配的數據大概我們可以看到兒童節目的播出比例大概未達"},{"start":65.472,"end":72.703,"text":"公視提供的資料過去我在NCC擔任電視台評鑑跟深色委員的時候我就一直在講"},{"start":74.165,"end":93.144,"text":"如果重播率非常的高的話表示這個電視台對於自己自製節目裡邊投資的非常非常少那尤其這個兒少節目真的看起來重播率非常非常的高這種情況顯示了就是我們的品質跟數量是不足的那也意味著"},{"start":93.824,"end":94.004,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":125.377,"end":137.601,"text":"請教一下董事長在去年10月25日公視兒少奔放前行的記者會本席當天也在現場在記者會當中宣布透過九大類節目開發將資源"},{"start":140.362,"end":164.32,"text":"投入兒少節目製作並帶動兒少節目跟動畫產業鏈的發展讓影視產業人才能夠續流台灣並製作更多的有意義的節目更創意的讓兒少的製作產業產能形成正向循環所以董事長想請教一下這邊有掌握九大類型節目的真案狀況嗎?"},{"start":167.472,"end":182.437,"text":"我們目前的確有6個案情順利發報出去但有3個案目前來講並沒有達到我們預期的目標所以我們會轉為自治或者再找合適的單位來跟我們合作好 謝謝董事長"},{"start":183.462,"end":201.488,"text":"我最擔心的就是這個因為今年1月的確在你的公開招標結果裡邊幼兒學習系列的帶狀節目跟新住民與學習跟我們公視兒少IP的延續有眼追追追這個三項事實上是廢標的狀態我上次質詢的時候就一直在強調臺灣的公視節目裡邊真的對兒少"},{"start":205.509,"end":205.549,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":221.345,"end":221.365,"text":"蘇貞昌議員"},{"start":237.879,"end":238.019,"text":"下一頁⋯⋯"},{"start":259.878,"end":282.262,"text":"要製作更多吸引家長跟孩子的內容這文策院也提出了那家長和小孩他們最想看的是對內容感興趣佔67%那孩子觀看節目的主要決策者是家長59%所以次長董事長你們自己是否親自觀看過你們公視長期以來播放的兒童節目"},{"start":283.786,"end":300.752,"text":"跟委員做報告就是誠如委員所說的就是因為台灣整體對兒少內容節目的產製能量過低所以才要投資在公視上請公視推出這個兒少頻道來提升整個產製那所以在現在已經播出的這個節目裡面我們當然會"},{"start":303.841,"end":324.517,"text":"當然會觀看他的節目內容因為也要監看他的節目品質跟節目的情況但是就整體的量來說我想還是希望大院可以繼續支持讓給公視一點時間因為今年是第一年第一年調整過預算讓公視有機會有一個完整的預算是支持兒少內容的節目那給他一點時間讓他用這個基礎上面把台灣整體能夠製作兒少節目內容的人"},{"start":327.699,"end":330.402,"text":"不過如同我上次質詢的時候提到我們現在孩子他們最熟悉的人物是Polly、巧虎跟佩佩豬"},{"start":345.817,"end":360.133,"text":"指出我們到底有沒有能量去提升到跟國外一樣等值的尤其幼兒我還是要再三強調我們希望幼兒事實上可以觀看我們公共電視的一些節目陪伴他們成長所以是不是也可以去"},{"start":360.754,"end":379.233,"text":"你們自己文策院大概就有調查了就是說怎麼去製作出吸引家長跟孩子的內容我覺得要去參佐這些意見甚至要不要去普遍調查否則現在台灣不能一直依賴水果奶奶一個IP我常常講說那個水果奶奶已經被阿祖阿祖的死肉還在播放的時候有沒有其他的好的節目"},{"start":380.975,"end":400.508,"text":"來讓我們的孩子能夠受惠啦我想結合台灣的IP不管是在動畫上、音樂上各種的表現形式上的台灣IP就是現在我們為什麼要推出台灣自製兒少內容的基礎那若不是有這些IP做基礎我們也很難產製出自己希望台灣可以製作的兒少節目所以委員提示的這個方向我想也是公視希望努力的方向"},{"start":401.028,"end":417.859,"text":"我會持續去關注並監督兒童節目的製作希望這個節目內容跟品質能夠滿足兒童的需求滿足兒童就包含幼兒台灣始終節目都真的很虧欠幼兒所以要請注意到這個方向都是有做分離的規劃"},{"start":419.701,"end":419.721,"text":"謝謝,謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"151767","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151767","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce151c065c0128591c6120df1bb4ac2af973c68e374cd8c4bed0fb440351d05509a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"12:29:44 - 12:42:39","影片長度":"00:12:55","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":775,"end_time":"2024-04-25T12:42:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T12:29:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1016,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（12時29分）謝謝主席。請王次長、胡董事長。"],["主席：有請王次長、胡董事長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：召委安排今天的專題報告與臺灣可能走得比較慢的兒少專題有關，尤其是影視平台上，讓我們對特別關注的主題有所瞭解。據本席之前的survey顯示，你們在去年10月25日曾召開記者會，宣布啟動跨族群、跨平台跟跨語言的兒少服務計畫，將社會的主流思維透過黑潮計畫的挹注，投入這個專門為兒少準備的平台。那次出席的有陳院長、史部長及胡董事長，陳院長特別提到，能夠這樣做是因為公共電視修法了，在立法院支持下，可以產生更多優質的兒少節目，並期待臺灣兒少IP能與其他媒介，如Switch遊戲做跨界結合，期待能推到全世界。雖然大家覺得我們在這部分做得有點慢，但至少現在已經開始起步做。部長在上一次的記者會裡有提到黑潮計畫，關於黑潮計畫，本席一開始也覺得非常特殊，因為與本席的經驗有很大的關係，我們待會再來討論。部長也談到，我們跨出單一頻道，跨出主題、電視頻道，連語言、族群都是跨越的，看起來這樣一個跨越、解構的思潮，應該是這裡面很重要的一環。當時在座的三位中，有發言的就是胡董事長，您當時也對於這樣一個頻道做了一些宣示，您還記得您當時的發言重點，跟您現在期待、所做的部分是哪一些嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：當然，謝謝政府與大院支持這樣一個兒少頻道，讓我們可以跟各國的公共媒體一樣都來推動。當時很重要的一個心情，就是希望這樣一個兒少新製的內容，能讓兒童在成長過程中、少年在成長過程中能開心，家長能夠放心。我記得這應該是那時我主要的……"],["林委員倩綺：是，您主要談到家長放心、孩子能夠開心，學齡前跟學齡的兒童，還有跟國外連結的部分，與今天的報告內容差不多，本席發現該次記者會大概就是這次報告內容的重點。但本席有個疑問，因為當中唯一不太一樣的，就是上回你們在第10屆最後一個會期所做的報告，而這次則是第11屆第1會期，不同的在於對象。我這邊有個疑問想請教，你們在新國會、新總統、新內閣上任前就已經編完且開始啟動執行，若本席有些比較新的想法，期待能做一些修正跟規劃的話，這個地方還能有大規模的更動與調整嗎？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，政府編列短中長程計畫是現在政府的計畫型態，而黑潮計畫的確是一個四年計畫，在確定的四年預算支持下，有一些中長程計畫才可以穩定發展。但是如果委員有不同意見或補充修改性的意見，都非常歡迎委員提出來，只要能在計畫裡容納的，我們仍會儘可能讓計畫更臻完美。尤其一開始提出時可能是一個計劃梗概，現在出來的漸漸會有執行、施行的細則、方式、合作的對象等等，在這個過程裡還是有很多可以提升與修改的基礎。"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝次長。我也等於幫未來即將投入與大家一起工作的部長先說一下話，因為每個人都會有一些想法，我的部分這次能在這裡跟大家討論，相信未來的部長也應該會有一些想法。在這邊本席想要跟部裡及公共電視建議，最近反霸凌的議題引發社會關注，去年兒福聯盟針對全臺兒少進行調查，發現臺灣兒少現在有微歧視的現象跟校園霸凌。調查報告的結果顯示有15.1%的兒少被霸凌，而霸凌的狀況有網路、肢體、言語、關係等。另外還有一種概念叫做微歧視，微歧視大部分是出現在我們沒有意識到言語當中，有高達34.2%的人會遭遇到這樣一個問題。這個調查報告其實顯示很重要的一件事情，所以本席在這邊建議，這份調查報告顯示其實有38.4%的兒少覺得自己有不一樣的特質，會引發別人的關注，然後身心疾病、性別、氣質，還有性傾向會被微歧視，其實是最嚴重的。幾個概念上，外貌、家庭狀況及種族，這些是被發現依序最高的幾個比例，所以本席在這邊建議，關於反霸凌及微歧視的概念應該要放在這個兒少平臺裡面，而且要占滿重的比例，這是本席對於整個社會文化發展的一個期待。當然早上大家有談到很多細節，這些細項可能未來我們再跟部裡面還有公共電視，做一些比較細緻的處理。"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員的建議，不過委員剛剛提到這個本來就是公視現在在進行的，因為它其實是一個文化價值的核心，平等對待以及多元文化的互相尊重，原本就是整個兒少節目在價值上的一個核心，所以公視現在……"],["林委員倩綺：本席認為……"],["王次長時思：包括生命教育跟人權教育裡面，這些內容其實都已經有涵蓋進來，未來我們還是可以繼續強化這方面。平等的精神跟多元尊重的精神，本來就是兒少頻道應該去遵守的一個價值及目標，我想委員剛才建議的沒有什麼問題。"],["林委員倩綺：那本席就特別提醒一下，包括微歧視這個部分，可能我們都沒有惡意，但是其實它充斥著整個社會。"],["王次長時思：就是沒有自覺性的變成歧視。"],["林委員倩綺：我相信在座的每一個人都有可能經歷過這一段。"],["王次長時思：它還牽涉到一個價值的內化。"],["林委員倩綺：是、是、是，所以本席要建議教育部、文化部及公視應該聯手，本席發現很多部會裡面其實都有相似的概念，可是有時候各行其道，你們這個力道就會降低，所以跨部會的實質合作，我期待能夠真正的落實。","我們知道兒少平臺在8月就要上路，請教一下胡董事長，8月幾號上路？8月1號嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：目前是定在8月20日。"],["林委員倩綺：好吧，那就有點可惜，請問你們知道原民日是哪一天嗎？我已經……"],["胡董事長元輝：如果是8月1號的話，的確時間上是趕不及。"],["林委員倩綺：時間上有點可惜，因為早上也有原民的委員提到對原民的關注。本來本席是想說你們如果來得及的話給你們提醒，原民日是在8月1號，8月1號是一個很重要的節慶。如果來不及，至少你們還是在8月開始，那是不是可以也去強化跟重塑這樣一個概念？因為本席發現從早上到現在的比例，除了鄭委員是原住民，他有特別注意到以外，大家對新住民的關注，讓我覺得有一點點這個，我覺得還是要為我們自己發聲一下，畢竟原住民在你們的概念裡面，應該在整個社會、整個福爾摩沙史前歷史的部分占有一個很重要的位置。還包括你們的所謂黑潮計畫，所以我想問一下，就你們的概念……，本席也查了很多，發現我們常常在定義上，跟本席的學術背景……，我常常都覺得找不到答案，可不可以請部裡面跟我解釋一下這個黑潮計畫，你們的概念上是什麼？我是很清楚我們阿美族的概念，但你們的概念是什麼？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，整體的黑潮計畫，其實是一個由臺灣內容把臺灣帶向國際的一個計畫，所以它在各項文化內容的呈現上面，都有所謂黑潮計畫的推動跟助力，包括像在兒少頻道上……"],["林委員倩綺：那你們知道地理上的黑潮是什麼意思吧？"],["王次長時思：是，當然，我知道它是一個潮流。"],["林委員倩綺：好啦，那我也特別查了，因為你們這邊我查不到，我就再確認一下是不是，因為我一直停留在我小時候的記憶，kuroshio好像是它的名稱，這跟日本有很大的關係，跟我們阿美族最大的關係是我們從小就講，我們的豐年祭就是跟著黑潮一步一步往上走。"],["王次長時思：因為黑潮是一個暖流，帶有豐富的營養，所經過的地方都孕育萬物，這是我們台流的計畫。"],["林委員倩綺：但是我建議部裡面，我們以前在文化創意產業或者是很多的名詞，在那個定義上，我覺得經常在底蘊的討論是不太清楚的。本席因為來自學術界，這個部分就會特別注意，你這個黑潮（kuroshio）計畫的概念……"],["王次長時思：它是個臺流計畫，可以這麼說。"],["林委員倩綺：基本上，我本來以為是我們阿美族遵循的一個文化中心，結果現在被借用了，可是我一直在詮釋上找不出來，你們從借用這個詞，然後去發展這個部分，好像中間有一點斷裂，本席這邊建議你們是不是在詮釋上能夠再精進去處理，從它原本的意義一直到現在你們所講的？要不然本席一直沒辦法搞懂這個黑潮，甚至覺得我們阿美族的東西被你們用了，然後也沒有一個闡述跟詮釋，所以這個部分要請你們改善，我講的是這個概念。在學術概念上，請你們給本席未來在查詢的時候能夠說服自己，要不然我會覺得我們的東西被你們用了之後，也沒有任何的位置在這裡面……"],["王次長時思：我們來檢討。"],["林委員倩綺：尤其是我會關注以後的，你們說跨族群的語言，不要只從原民臺借用一些東西或者是……本席在過去的經驗常常碰到原住民的事務……"],["王次長時思：因為黑潮是個洋流，我們讓這個計畫跟臺流有……"],["林委員倩綺：你們都會說我們會跟原民會、原民會怎樣，可是原民會常常都是我們原住民的概念，難道其他的族群對我們沒有一些認識嗎？我們也期待其他的族群對我們認識的概念，能夠透過一些平臺來瞭解，產生一些溝通啊，而不是我們自己一直在自言自語，其他的平臺建置了，即使有原民的部分，結果中間是沒有任何對話的。所以這個部分，本席未來也會跟大家多做一些溝通。","最後，文化奧運，請問一下我們臺灣原民在這個文化奧運裡面的團體比例有多少？"],["王次長時思：我想我們沒有用比例來計算，不過，在我們邀請的對象裡面也有阿爆，也有原住民團體的演出，所以它整個是一個多元、多族群，包括客語、傳統、現代、音樂、DJ、舞團，都有。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，我會特別關心原住民啦，因為我發現大家現在要麼年輕化，要麼幼兒化，早上也有吳委員提到的壯世代。"],["王次長時思：裡面有原住民的演出。"],["林委員倩綺：然後原住民也有可能，你剛才講的阿爆嘛，非常的現代，而且非常的fusion，但是很多傳統的團體也是做得很不錯的，本席希望會後你可以提供本席參加這個文化奧運，在臺灣館裡面會演出的團體，到底是哪一些團體。"],["王次長時思：我們可以提供演出團體的名單。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，最後本席的一個期待就是這句話，文化部可不可以跳脫你們的行政本位，跟有的時候的意識形態，帶領臺灣這個社會，請你們引領文化的前瞻跟先鋒，走向一個比較健康的方向。"],["王次長時思：我想文化部一直秉持臺灣自由、多元、民主的基礎價值，應該沒有所謂的意識形態，我們談不上帶領，但是我們的確希望成為臺灣社會文化裡面一個重要的基礎跟力量。"],["林委員倩綺：是，我們把我們的位置往前走，好嗎？我們大家一起加油，謝謝。"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝林倩綺委員，次長請回。","接下來請林月琴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","葉元之","陳培瑜","何欣純","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","范雲","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","林月琴","陳冠廷","羅智強"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫─ 公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.957843750000002,"end":13.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.851593750000003,"end":16.129718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.72846875,"end":140.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.89721875,"end":19.032218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.032218750000002,"end":19.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.03846875000002,"end":150.74159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":150.96096875,"end":155.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.17534375,"end":160.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.61346875,"end":162.89159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.06034375000002,"end":165.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.08971875,"end":164.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":164.93346875,"end":221.95409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.08471875,"end":263.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.09534375000004,"end":264.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.96846875,"end":381.89534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.55909375000005,"end":373.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.96409375,"end":374.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":376.41096875000005,"end":377.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.20784375000005,"end":416.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.43471875,"end":386.77221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.77221875000004,"end":386.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.73721875,"end":397.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.10971875,"end":424.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.34471875,"end":423.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.03221875,"end":424.04909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.06596875,"end":428.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.21784375000004,"end":425.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.69409375000004,"end":430.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.82034375,"end":456.07784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":456.88784375,"end":459.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":459.01409375000003,"end":464.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.21971875,"end":466.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":466.72596875000005,"end":470.48909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.48909375000005,"end":539.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.03534375,"end":555.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":553.0078437500001,"end":555.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.8090937500001,"end":555.8259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":555.8259687500001,"end":555.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.87659375,"end":556.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":556.9734687499999,"end":557.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.12096875,"end":558.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":559.80846875,"end":576.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":561.3103437500001,"end":563.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.56534375,"end":581.9484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":579.4172187500001,"end":580.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":580.78409375,"end":597.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.18471875,"end":583.8047187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.35971875,"end":597.5578437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.62534375,"end":597.8953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":597.8953437499999,"end":629.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.92909375,"end":598.5872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.10659375,"end":624.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.1484687500001,"end":625.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":629.6709687499999,"end":693.3572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":654.89909375,"end":658.2234687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":693.81284375,"end":706.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":706.21596875,"end":733.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":706.24971875,"end":707.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.42159375,"end":713.55659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":713.79284375,"end":714.8728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":734.1103437500001,"end":737.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":736.8272187500002,"end":748.3528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":748.6059687500001,"end":754.3772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.3772187500001,"end":754.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.6809687500001,"end":771.7922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":761.5322187500001,"end":761.5828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":761.5828437499999,"end":762.1228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":766.40909375,"end":766.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":772.9565937500001,"end":774.3403437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.951,"end":9.812,"text":"王次長、胡董事長"},{"start":19.433,"end":46.493,"text":"謝謝教委今天這個專題讓我們對於這個臺灣可能也走得比較慢的這個兒少這樣子的一個專題在影視平台讓我們特別關注的這樣一個主題有所了解那本席在前面的survey在這個去年應該你們在10月25號召開一個記者會然後 對吧宣布啟動這樣一個跨族群、跨平台跟跨語言的兒少服務計畫"},{"start":47.534,"end":49.295,"text":"當時有陳院長、史部長及胡董事長出席。"},{"start":66.183,"end":90.982,"text":"陳永澤這邊特別提到能夠這樣子做是因為公共電視修法了那在過去立法院的支持下可以產生很多優質的兒少節目裡面對於台灣兒少的IP能夠跟其他的媒介做比如說Switch的這個遊戲跨界能夠做一個結合然後期待推到全世界雖然我們這個部分剛才大家討論覺得有點慢但是至少我們現在已經開始起步做"},{"start":91.622,"end":118.625,"text":"那部長在上一次的這個記者會裡面也提到了這個黑潮計畫那有關於這個黑潮計畫本席在一開始對這個計畫也感到非常的這個特殊因為這個跟本席的這個經驗有很大的一個關係我們可能待會再來討論所以在部長這邊也談到說這個我們跨出了一個單一頻道然後跨出主題電視頻道語言族群都是跨越的"},{"start":119.145,"end":139.733,"text":"那看起來這樣一個跨越解構的思潮應該是在這裡面很重要的一環那當時在座的三位有發言人就胡董事長您當時也對於這樣一個頻道做了一些宣示那您還記得您當時比較發言的這個重點那跟您現在期待所做的這個部分是哪一些嗎?"},{"start":141.849,"end":164.894,"text":"當然這樣的一個兒少頻道很謝謝政府跟大院的支持那我們可以跟各國的這些公共媒體一樣都來推動那當時我想很重要的一個心情就是希望這樣的一個兒少的心智內容他能夠讓兒童在成長的過程中少年在成長過程中能夠開心家長也能夠放心我記得那時應該是我主要的"},{"start":165.034,"end":178.93,"text":"是是是,您主要談到家長放心,那孩子能夠開心那當然這個學齡圈跟學齡的這個兒童還有跟國外的一個連結當然這個部分就跟今天的這個報告內容也差不多所以本席就發現這個記者會"},{"start":180.532,"end":196.2,"text":"大概就是這次報告內容的一個重點那這邊本席是有一個疑問因為好像在這一次唯一不太一樣的就是上一回你們的這個報告應該是針對第10屆的最後一個會期那這一次是這個第11屆第一個會期那不同的就是這個對象所以我這邊有一個疑問想要請教的是你們已經在這個新國會新總統新內閣上任前就已經編完"},{"start":209.187,"end":218.077,"text":"而且已經開始啟動執行那如果本席在這邊有一些比較新的想法然後期待做一些修正跟規劃那這個地方還能夠有這個大規模的更動跟調整嗎?"},{"start":223.103,"end":240.956,"text":"跟委員說明我想一個政府編列短中長程的計畫是一個現在政府的計畫形態那所以黑潮計畫的確是一個四年計畫那也有在確定四年預算的支持下有一些中長程的計畫才可以穩定發展但是如果委員有不同的意見或者是有"},{"start":241.496,"end":241.656,"text":"主席"},{"start":265.388,"end":281.725,"text":"好 謝謝次長那我也可能幫未來要投入跟大家一起工作的部長這邊先說一下話啦所以應該每個人都會有一些想法那我的部分呢能夠在這次跟大家做一個討論那我相信未來的你未來部長也應該會有一些想法"},{"start":282.506,"end":299.359,"text":"﹗所以在這邊本席想要跟部裡跟公共電視這邊建議因為最近反霸凌這樣的議題很引發整個社會的關注所以在去年那個兒服聯盟對於全台兒少就進行調查那就發現台灣兒少現在有這種"},{"start":301.84,"end":326.913,"text":"為歧視的現象跟校園霸凌的調查報告產生的結果是有15.1%的兒少被霸凌霸凌的狀況有網路、肢體、言語、關係等另外還有一種概念叫做為歧視為歧視大部分在我們沒有意識到的言語當中有高達34.2%的會遭遇到這樣一個問題"},{"start":330.556,"end":352.874,"text":"這個調查報告其實顯示很重要的一件事情所以本席在這邊建議這個調查報告其實裡面還有38.4%的兒少就覺得自己有不一樣的特質然後會引發別人的關注然後身心疾病、性別氣質還有性傾向會被為歧視其實是最嚴重的那幾個概念上外貌、家庭狀況及種族這個是被"},{"start":356.977,"end":376.709,"text":"發現最高的幾個比例所以本席在這邊建議就是這個反霸凌然後為歧視這個概念應該要放在這個兒少平台裡面還蠻重的一個比例這是本席對於整個社會文化的發展的一個期待當然早上大家有談到很多細節那這個細項可能未來我們再跟部裡面還有公共電視這邊來做一個比較細緻上的處理"},{"start":381.932,"end":397.592,"text":"不過因為委員剛剛提到這個其實本來就是公視現在在進行的因為它其實是一個文化價值的核心那平等對待以及多元的文化的互相尊重原本就是整個兒少節目在價值上的一個核心所以其實公視在現在很重要的意思"},{"start":398.192,"end":399.452,"text":"我相信在座每一個人都有可能經歷過這一段"},{"start":427.921,"end":430.182,"text":"我們知道這個兒少平台在8月就要上路可以請教一下應該是那個董事長8月幾號上路?8月1號嗎?"},{"start":456.926,"end":463.856,"text":"目前是定在8月20日。請問你們知道原明日是哪一天嗎?"},{"start":467.001,"end":488.797,"text":"對,如果是8月1日的話,的確是時間上是趕不及的。是,時間上有點可惜,因為早上有圓明的委員這邊提到了對圓明的一個關注。本來本席是想你們如果來得及,給你們一個提醒,就是圓明日是在8月1日,那常常8月1日是一個很重要的節慶。那如果來不及至少,是不是你們還是在8月開始?"},{"start":489.778,"end":516.03,"text":"可不可以也強化跟重塑這樣一個概念因為本席發現從早上到現在的比例除了我們政委員是原住民他有特別注意到以外大家對新住民的關注讓我覺得有一點點這個我覺得還是要為我們自己發聲一下因為畢竟原住民在你們的這個概念裡面應該就是整個社會的福爾摩沙在史前歷史的部分都有很重要的一個位置"},{"start":516.85,"end":535.727,"text":"所以那還包括你們這所謂黑潮計畫所以我可以問一下這個就你們的概念因為本席也查了很多那本席發現在我們常常在定義上跟本席的一個學術背景我常常都覺得找不到答案可不可以請部裡面跟我解釋一下這個黑潮計畫你們的概念上是什麼"},{"start":536.468,"end":558.565,"text":"我是很清楚我們阿美族的概念那你們的概念是什麼跟委員說明整體的黑潮計畫其實是一個由台灣內容把台灣帶向國際的一個計畫所以它在各項的文化內容的呈現上面都有所謂黑潮計畫的推動跟助力那你們知道那個地理上的黑潮是什麼意思吧是當然"},{"start":560.415,"end":578.523,"text":"我特別查了,因為你們這邊我查不到,我就再確認一下是不是我一直停留在我小時候的記憶。那Kuroshio好像是他的名稱嘛,那跟日本有很大的關係。那跟我們阿美族最大的關係是我們從小就講,我們的豐年祭就是跟著黑潮一步一步往上走。因為黑潮是一個暖流,那帶有豐富的營養,那所經過的地方都很慾望。"},{"start":582.165,"end":582.725,"text":"主持人 林倩綺"},{"start":602.498,"end":628.484,"text":"結果現在被借用了可是我一直在詮釋上找不出來你們從借用這個詞然後再發展這個部分好像中間有點斷裂本席這邊建議你們是不是在詮釋上能夠再精進去處理從它原本的意義一直到現在你們所講的要不然本席一直沒辦法搞懂這個黑潮甚至覺得我們阿美族的東西被你們用了然後也沒有一個闡述跟詮釋"},{"start":629.964,"end":644.474,"text":"所以這個請各位我講的真的是這個概念所以在學術概念上請你們給本席未來在查詢的時候呢能夠說服自己要不然會覺得我們的東西被你們用了之後呢也沒有任何的位置在這裡面"},{"start":645.154,"end":663.278,"text":"尤其是我會關注這個以後的你們說跨族群的語言不要只從原民台借用一些東西或者是你們說本席在過去的經驗常常碰到原住民的事物你們都會說我們會跟原民會原民會怎樣可是原民會常常都是我們原住民的概念"},{"start":663.638,"end":693.098,"text":"那難道這個其他的族群都沒有一些認識嗎?我們也期待其他的族群對我們的認識的概念能夠透過一些平台來瞭解然後產生一些溝通啊而不是我們自己一直在自言自語然後其他的平台建制了那其實有原名的這個部分結果中間是沒有任何對話的所以這個部分本席也會未來跟大家多做一些溝通最後文化奧運請問一下那個我們台灣原名在這個文化奧運裡面的團體的比例有多少?"},{"start":693.831,"end":720.403,"text":"我想我們沒有用比例來計算不過我們邀請的對象包括我們邀請的對象也有阿豹也有原住民團體的演出所以它整個是一個多元多族群包括客語傳統現代音樂DJ好的那我會特別關心原住民啦因為我發現大家現在要嘛這個年輕化要嘛幼兒化那早上也有那個五位元的這個壯士代有裡面有原住民的演出然後原住民呢也有可能你剛才講的阿豹嘛非常的現代而且非常的fusion那但是很多的傳統的這個"},{"start":725.886,"end":745.781,"text":"本席希望會後你可不可以提供給本席參加這個文化奧運在台灣館裡面會演出的這個團體到底是哪一些團體我們可以提供演出團體的名單最後本席的一個期待就這句話文化部可不可以跳脫我們這個行政本位跟有的時候意識形態那帶領台灣的社會"},{"start":748.703,"end":749.463,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝林倩綺"}]}},{"id":"151766","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151766","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce156ff2be38d36e61c7c97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed0fb440351d05509a35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"12:27:27 - 12:34:16","影片長度":"00:06:49","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":409,"end_time":"2024-04-25T12:34:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T12:27:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1137,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（12時27分）謝謝主席黃召委，我們請部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：何委員好。"],["何委員欣純：部長，辛苦你了，謝謝你這六年來的付出。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["何委員欣純：今天我們關心的是就業的部分，你也知道在中部地區有很多的外籍移工、外籍人士，剛剛張委員提到昨天發生於臺中地區的臺體大棒球選手學生被失聯的外籍移工撞死，很遺憾、很悲傷。對於失聯的外籍移工如何做管理，剛剛你有承諾、勞動部承諾一個月後要有一個報告，當然可能到時候阿春部長你不在這個職位上，但是你剛剛講到政策是延續的，我更進一步的希望我們勞動部的相關同仁們能注意到外籍移工的交通問題。","我提供一個數據，在臺灣的外國人，當然包含外籍移工，有關外籍人士的事故統計，這個是從道安資訊網裡面所download下來的，前四名的國籍是越南、印尼、菲律賓、泰國，至於他們的居留地，在六都之中，我們臺中的死亡人數最高，死傷人數排第三名，但死亡人數以臺中市為最高；我們臺灣的交通安全協會也曾經指出來，現在臺灣的移工跟新住民的比例越來越高，但是他們對於常使用的運具、交通法令以及臺灣獨有的交通特性可能不是那麼瞭解，是不是要更多加宣導？"],["許部長銘春：會。"],["何委員欣純：我曾經在本委員會質詢過，也不斷地在倡議，其中有一點，外籍移工最常使用的是什麼？是慢車、微型電動二輪車，也就是我們的電動自行車，這個在我上一屆擔任立委的任內有提案，也謝謝交通部支持、行政院支持，我們把它納入強制的納保、納管，就是掛牌，對嗎？這樣政府才好管理。但是這部分還是有一個過渡期，現在新進的移工新買的電動自行車，我們可以完全掌握，因為要求他掛牌、納管，但是在我們110年度修法之前，已經在臺灣的外籍移工，他們所購買的電動自行車有沒有納管、有沒有強制掛牌，我們正在宣導，希望都能夠納管，但……"],["許部長銘春：根據交通部的法規，好像他們那些要補辦喔。"],["何委員欣純：對，要補辦，但是現在還沒有百分之百補辦，現在還正在進行當中……"],["許部長銘春：我們來進行宣導好了。"],["何委員欣純：所以我現在要求、拜託，拜託我們勞動部是不是可以加強宣導？"],["許部長銘春：可以，沒有問題。"],["何委員欣純：因為外籍人士事故肇因的統計，請看下一個表格，你知道嗎？我們從道安資訊網上面查到的前10名有這麼多狀況，這個不知道部長知不知道，可能你們都還不知道，你們沒有跨部會去盤點這些data base。這些數據告訴我們什麼東西？我們現在對騎乘電動自行車的交通法規宣導，雖然有越南語、泰語、印尼語以及英文版，但是我們在宣導的時候只宣導什麼你知道嗎？這三項：要戴安全帽；不可以改裝；不可以載人，就只有這三項。可是再回到剛剛我給你看的那個頁面，外籍人士肇事的前十項肇因是什麼？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，沒關係，因為剛剛那個頁面是交通部提供的，我們再來加強啦。"],["何委員欣純：是，我建議，我進一步提議勞動部要跟交通部來建議，更重要的是外籍移工要進來臺灣之前的教育宣導這部分，勞動部是不是可以再去加強？"],["許部長銘春：可以。"],["何委員欣純：因為你們現在入國前的宣導影片有30分鐘，包括他的工作權益、申訴、安全等各項法規，通通擠在這30分鐘的影片裡面，然後入國後的宣導blah blah blah一堆，但是對於交通方面，包括臺灣的交通法規、運具騎乘上的安全、臺灣的道路系統等等，我們完全沒有宣導。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，除了30分鐘的影片以外，移工進來的時候，我們也給他手冊，還有我們會請他加入我們的LINE＠，LINE＠裡面我們就隨時會拋訊息，像這些我們都可以在……"],["何委員欣純：我希望勞動部在交通安全、交通法規，還有對於我們道路系統相關的安全問題，可以再多花一點時間，用多元的方式去加強交通安全相關規則的宣導，我覺得這很重要，拜託、拜託啦。"],["許部長銘春：好。是。沒問題，這是我們應該做的。"],["何委員欣純：這是為了移工好，為了新住民好，也為了我們大家好……"],["許部長銘春：對，沒錯。是。"],["何委員欣純：因為生命是無價的，大家都不希望有任何的交通意外事故，不希望有任何的死傷，尤其這還會牽涉到剛剛也有提到的一件事，就是失聯的外籍移工撞死臺體大的學生。部長，你說你身為律師，你卸任之後也願意去幫忙。我們現在在交通的意外事故後，衍生了很多保險理賠的問題，所以這部分都是我希望透過勞動部跟交通部跨部會的合作，我們共同在事前就預防、宣導、告知，不要在事後發生問題，我們才來遺憾，才來怎麼樣怎麼樣，好不好？部長。"],["許部長銘春：好，我們應該做的。謝謝。"],["何委員欣純：政策是延續的，請我們勞動部的同仁們可以加強，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員，我們會來做。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員發言。接下來請翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員，翁曉玲委員不在。","接下來請羅智強委員、羅智強委員，羅智強委員不在。","接下來請賴士葆委員、賴士葆委員，賴士葆委員不在。","接下來請林倩綺委員、林倩綺委員，林倩綺委員不在。","接下來請陳瑩委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.27471875,"end":10.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.391593750000002,"end":86.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.80221875000001,"end":88.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.77221875000001,"end":104.48721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.57159375,"end":105.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.14534375000001,"end":165.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.02346875,"end":156.66471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.37346875,"end":157.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.38471875000002,"end":166.43534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.48596875,"end":167.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.61659375000002,"end":178.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.34909375,"end":179.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.29409375,"end":179.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.31096875,"end":179.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.91846875000002,"end":181.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.35284375,"end":184.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.64346875,"end":185.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.50409375,"end":185.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.14534375000002,"end":188.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.33909375000002,"end":192.57471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.57471875000002,"end":196.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.84471875,"end":193.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.25346875000002,"end":196.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.37159375000002,"end":196.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.87784375,"end":206.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.62034375000002,"end":199.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.16846875000002,"end":200.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.50159375,"end":201.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.45034375,"end":206.80034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.08721875,"end":217.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.06409375,"end":220.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.46909375,"end":220.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.99221875,"end":223.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.77659375000002,"end":224.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.02971875,"end":229.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.02034375000002,"end":231.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.94409375,"end":244.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.15284375000002,"end":247.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.77284375000002,"end":250.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.45596875,"end":254.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.11346875,"end":257.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.32409375000003,"end":257.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.44221875,"end":258.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.61909375,"end":261.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.26846875,"end":266.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.01909375,"end":265.76159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.89659375,"end":266.75721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.99346875000003,"end":274.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.90471875000003,"end":268.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.57534375,"end":269.74409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.49909375000004,"end":271.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.16096875,"end":282.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.97409375,"end":283.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.00784375,"end":299.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.50721875,"end":301.58721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.61659375,"end":309.60284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.14284375,"end":311.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.74159375,"end":320.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.94284375,"end":325.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.44846875,"end":364.44659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.48284375000003,"end":350.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.92971875,"end":351.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.60034375000004,"end":352.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.35534375000003,"end":355.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.05971875,"end":356.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.42534375,"end":369.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.18409375000005,"end":380.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.35534375000003,"end":391.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.53096875,"end":392.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":392.40846875,"end":392.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.98221875,"end":403.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.99409375000005,"end":398.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.93909375000004,"end":400.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.83721875000003,"end":405.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.80721875,"end":408.38909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.64221875000004,"end":408.96284375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.852,"end":9.256,"text":"謝謝主席黃昭威。我們請部長,請許部長。"},{"start":14.434,"end":35.24,"text":"何委員好部長辛苦你了謝謝謝謝你這6年來的付出今天我想我們關心的是就業的部分你也知道在中部地區很多的外籍移工、外籍人士剛剛有張委員提到昨天發生的在台中地區"},{"start":37.401,"end":49.874,"text":"臺體大的這個棒球選手學生被失聯的外籍移工撞死那很遺憾很悲傷那失聯的外籍移工如何去做管理我覺得這個剛剛你有承諾要勞動部"},{"start":53.858,"end":55.059,"text":"這個外籍人士的事故統計"},{"start":81.179,"end":104.199,"text":"這個是這個道安資訊網裡面所download下來的前4名越南、印尼、菲律賓、泰國那再下一個居留地以六都之中我們台中它的死亡人數最高死傷人數算是排前3名那死亡人數以台中市為最高"},{"start":105.22,"end":122.642,"text":"那這牽涉的到我們臺灣的這個交通安全協會也曾經指出來現在臺灣的移工跟新住民的比例越來越高所以他們常使用的運具交通法令以及對於臺灣獨有的這個交通特性他們可能不是那麼瞭解"},{"start":123.203,"end":145.188,"text":"那是不是要更多加宣導?我曾經在我們本委員會也包括質詢過不斷的在倡議其中有一點是什麼?外籍移工最常使用的對不起是什麼?慢車、微型電動二輪車就是我們的電動自行車那這個在我上一屆擔任立委的任內我"},{"start":145.968,"end":165.274,"text":"提案也謝謝交通部支持、行政院支持,我們把它納入強制的納保、納管。掛牌啦,對不對。我不知道好管理。但是呢,這還是有一個過渡期。我現在新進的移工、新買的電動自行車我可以完全掌握,因為要求它掛牌。"},{"start":167.714,"end":183.719,"text":"但是呢已經在臺灣在我們110年度修法之前已經在臺灣的外籍移工他們所購買的電動自行車有沒有納管有沒有強制掛牌我們正在"},{"start":184.779,"end":194.726,"text":"對,要補辦,但是現在還沒有百分之百補辦,現在還正在進行當中,所以我現在要求拜託,拜託我們勞動部是不是可以加強宣導,因為呢,"},{"start":207.174,"end":217.645,"text":"外籍人事的事故的統計照應來在下一個表格你知道嗎我們從這個道安資訊網上面查到的前10名有這麼多狀況這個不知道部長知不知道可能你們還都不知道你們沒有跨部會去盤點這些data base這些數據來告訴我們"},{"start":232.068,"end":258.388,"text":"我們現在對電動自行車的騎乘交通法規的宣導雖然我們有越南語、泰語、印尼語、英文版但是我們在宣導的時候只宣導什麼你知道嗎?這三項要戴安全帽、不可以改裝、不可以載人就只有這三項可是你再回到剛剛我給你的那個頁面我們的造勢前十項的因素是什麼?"},{"start":259.616,"end":260.937,"text":"勞動部要跟交通部來建議,更重要的是勞動部可不可以"},{"start":275.389,"end":301.139,"text":"在我們外籍移工要進來台灣之前的一個教育宣導是不是可以加強?因為你們現在入國前的宣導30分鐘的影片裡面包括他的工作權益啦、申訴啦、安全啦各項法規通通擠在這30分鐘的影片那入國後的宣導呢啪啪啪一堆但是呢對交通交通"},{"start":302.639,"end":311.061,"text":"台灣的交通法規、你運具上的騎乘的安全、台灣的這個道路系統等等我們完全沒有宣導"},{"start":312.779,"end":336.513,"text":"我們完全沒有宣檔。我們其實除了30分鐘的影片以外,進來的時候我們也給他守著,還有我們會請他加入Line8,那個就隨時我們會有拋訊息。我希望我們在交通安全、交通法規,還有對於我們道路系統的一個相關的安全的問題,我們可以再多花"},{"start":337.913,"end":364.166,"text":"時間用多元的方式去加重宣導加強我們的交通安全的相關的規則宣導啊我覺得這很重要啊拜託拜託啦這個是為了移工好為了新住民好也為了我們大家好因為生命是無價的大家都不希望有任何的交通意外事故不希望有任何的死傷尤其呢這還會牽涉到剛剛有提到一件事"},{"start":365.492,"end":378.966,"text":"外籍移工,剛剛那個是死臉撞死台體大的學生部長你說你身為律師你卸任之後你也願意去幫忙我們現在在交通的這個意外事故後衍生了很多什麼保險理賠的問題"},{"start":381.374,"end":381.774,"text":"好,謝謝何欣淳委員發言。"}]}},{"id":"151765","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151765","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce157ce5ee265c5bd05320df1bb4ac2af973c68e374cd8c4bed04e5686418a82e3265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"12:17:11 - 12:29:24","影片長度":"00:12:13","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":733,"end_time":"2024-04-25T12:29:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T12:17:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":911,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（12時17分）謝謝主席，我們請文化部王政次。"],["主席：好，王次長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，謝謝政次。我想請問一下，TICP2.0有什麼具體的成效？"],["王次長時思：不好意思，我剛才沒有聽清楚委員的問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：TICP國際合作投資方案。"],["王次長時思：國際合作、合資、合製的方案，那應該是文策院的方案。"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。"],["王次長時思：對，我是不是可以請文策院直接說明？"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：委員要問TICP2.0嘛？"],["羅委員廷瑋：對。"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：2.0是今年開始我們加大的一個方案，跟1.0不同的是我們是使用國發基金進場，然後取消原本的投資比例跟投資上限。2.0開始以來，其實已經開始陸陸續續有一些大型的國際合資案在進行送案當中，因為這些送案還沒有開過國發必須遵守的正式投審會，所以可能很多細節我現在不便在這邊公開。"],["羅委員廷瑋：細節當然不用公開啦！"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是就我目前瞭解，是不是10家申請？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：10家是1.0。"],["羅委員廷瑋：加撤案？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：那是1.0。"],["羅委員廷瑋：1.0嗎？不是2.0？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：不是，那是1.0。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那目前2.0有幾家申請呢？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：目前2.0應該陸陸續續有6、7家。"],["羅委員廷瑋：6、7家啊？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有沒有撤案跟補件中的？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：有一個案子，兩家正在研擬要不要撤案。"],["羅委員廷瑋：兩家？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，目前還沒通過？應該還沒開會通過？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。我想國際合作投資方案，最主要的一個目的就是吸引外國來的資方，來跟我們臺灣合作，合資、合製電影，增進產業的交流跟國際接軌。我想合作投資方案的內容必須要有誘因啦，這個誘因，你覺得2.0有提升嗎？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：當然提升，委員應該知道，從疫情過後，因為全球大型平臺宰制，整個製作費節節上漲的關係，越是國際合製案，製作費就越上漲。原本的TICP1.0礙於預算經費關係，他們每一單案的投資上限只有30萬美金以下，然後我們能夠投資的案子也只有30%的比例，目前2.0其實是我們取消原本這樣30萬美金的上限……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們看到你所提高的金額有上限，但是我們來看，一下，TICP1.0跟2.0，兩者最大的不同在於1.0很明確知道內容有哪些，然後採書面審議；2.0變成統統都來申請，我們會來審核，然後有一個投審會會做投資審議，其實之前你有跟我說過……"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這個投審會有一個很重大的決策。我想問一下，不管是我們董事長跟次長，好案子不缺錢，但要吸引外國的人來跟臺灣投資，配套就要做好。我們覺得2.0的金額雖然都有加大，但是整體的預算也沒有變多，那這樣子的配套，到底哪邊有什麼不一樣？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：報告委員，我不清楚為什麼……其實我們整體預算是變多的，因為使用國發基金，目前其實光是國發基金匡列給文化部跟文策院，就有高達100億的預算可以使用，跟過去我們TICP1.0的時候比，每年其實文策院只有大概七千萬左右的預算，比較起來大水庫跟小水庫，天差地遠，這個要跟委員報告。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你所提到的資料，再麻煩你會後提供給我，好不好？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：沒問題，是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是現在外界質疑這個政策缺乏溝通跟不夠透明，引發國人不只是國內的影視人員都有所疑慮，也影響臺灣的誠信，你有掌握到這個外部輿論嗎？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：完全掌握。這個事情其實我們在第一時間也出面跟業者溝通，而且在1月開始，有這樣相關的事情報導之後，我們在這3個月來，我個人大概就參與了十幾場公開跟線下的說明會，務必讓每一個業者清楚知道，這個改變是為了讓大家可以用……"],["羅委員廷瑋：你方不方便跟我們提一下，因為我們想知道，報載說你有問業者啦，有問過哪些業者？溝通過哪些業者？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：具體的業者名稱嗎？"],["羅委員廷瑋：方便提供嗎？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：當然，包括飛旺影業、包括奇影，然後包含其實有許多專門做國際合資的一條龍虎豹，這些都在我們溝通的範圍當中。"],["羅委員廷瑋：OK，看起來就是有做過功夫囉！"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：當然。"],["羅委員廷瑋：有備而來。那TICP1.0在2022年有13件通過，如果這個資料有誤的話，可以再跟我們修正沒關係喔！2023年有15件通過，平均每個月都還有1件，但2.0到目前的話成績都還是0件啦，因為你說還沒有審核嘛！"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：跟委員報告，我們實施2.0方案，就是因為之前業者有說，如果我們2.0馬上上路，怕他們原本已經要申請1.0的案件會來不及申請，會跟國外的資金斷鏈，所以我們1.0其實繼續開放讓他們申請到2月底為止，所以他們今年的案子，1.0是照常會申請。"],["羅委員廷瑋：因為你1月19就開始受理嘛，對不對？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你1.0跟2.0是並行？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：沒錯。"],["羅委員廷瑋：OK，如果我們不知道這件事情的話，我會認為2.0到目前已經停擺3個月左右的時間啦！"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：其實沒有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以你1.0有在並行，這是一個很好的配套。"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：沒錯，有落日，是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我想銜接的過程，1.0到2.0轉換的過程看起來有配套，但是我們要知道中間一定會有一些瑕疵、有問題。"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：當然。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們要趕緊、加緊讓這些事情的瑕疵趕緊弭平。"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：沒問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：要不然，之前有上百位的影界人士聯署抗議，這個你知道嗎？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：完全知道。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你都知道吧？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：完全知道，而且我覺得非常的過意不去。"],["羅委員廷瑋：影視界要一起聯署，這是一件不容易的事情，你們達到了這一個輝煌的成績，他們聯署抗議，批評文策院在TICP的轉換過於倉促。我想這個部分，你說你有溝通，後續這些溝通跟配套，他們有一些相關的作法，你們有沒有採納？或者是研議？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：就政策上來講，當然每個業者都會希望政府對他們的照顧是越來越好、越多越好，我必須坦白跟各位報告，文策院設立的目的是以商業化為目的，商業化跟國際化是文策院的兩大KPI，而我們使用的政策工具是叫投資，不叫補助。比較遺憾，有一些業者他們其實有點搞不清楚文策院使用的錢叫投資，各位、跟你們報告，投資叫將本求利啦！補助是義無反顧……"],["羅委員廷瑋：他們希望你義無反顧啦！"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：他們希望我們義無反顧的支持，這一點，容我難答應他們。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以在這一次的溝通，基本上是你說服他們，並沒有要去改方案？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：我不敢說我說服他們，而是我們雙向的溝通，一方面要讓他理解，其實文策院真的是以商業化投資的角度出發，如果說有一些案子，他是希望跟歐洲某些國家一樣完全用政府的補助的話，我們其實就比較難去支持。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，2.0現在補件，你說還有幾家嘛！"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：對。"],["羅委員廷瑋：補件的資料是要看多久？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：看多久？"],["羅委員廷瑋：要多久時間？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：因為現在新的TICP2.0，我們為了要讓無論是立法院監督、各位監督，我們要讓它更公開透明，所以我們都必須要遵照像國發基金的規定，我們要開一個正式的、有委員組成的投資審議委員會，這樣流程會因金額不同而有不同的流程。一般來講，如果需要我們投資的金額是在兩千萬以下的，大概需要三個月左右時間；如果是兩千萬以上的金額，則看個案大小不同，可能需要三到五個月左右。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好。我想今天我要特別聲明的是，我們會緊盯這個2.0計畫與相關進度，如有任何進展，都希望可以讓我們知道。"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：沒問題，我再主動拜訪委員。"],["羅委員廷瑋：也讓大家知道我們非常關注這議題。"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：沒問題。"],["羅委員廷瑋：最後，我想回到今日專報的主題。請問文化部，臺灣現在兒童節目自製的比例為多少？"],["王次長時思：現在臺灣兒童自製節目比例低於百分之十。"],["羅委員廷瑋：次長不好意思，您聲音可以大聲一點嗎？我聽不太到。"],["王次長時思：如果是純臺灣自製的節目是低於百分之十，這是以整個播出時數為計算之下所得。"],["羅委員廷瑋：OK。2023年3月，也就是一年前，臺灣自製比例大概為8%左右，全球排名倒數，臺灣的小朋友都在看國外的兒童節目……"],["王次長時思：這就是為什麼要有兒少頻道……"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們從孩童開始就在夯國外的節目，青年時則看國際的卡通。像我的孩子可能就是看波力、碰碰狐、Baby Shark，你知道這些東西嗎？"],["王次長時思：有聽過。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我的小朋友最近迷上蘑菇蘑菇，你知道嗎？"],["王次長時思：也是聽說的，因為我自己沒有看，但是有聽到大家在討論。"],["羅委員廷瑋：最近蠻多人在唱蘑菇這首歌，據我目前的瞭解，這是小啼大作兒童音樂社製作的，看起來是與臺灣相關的製作，這部分我們能不能去……自製率很低，想看臺灣的兒童節目到底要上哪看？頻道有沒有過少？都買國外節目最讓人擔心的是文化壟斷，讓孩子在無形中接收國外的資訊與文化。次長，拿資源做一些適合臺灣小朋友的頻道，本席認為這是非常有益的，是一件好事。問題是，即便做得再好、再棒，若沒有人看也沒有什麼用！這是需要培養的，每一代人都有每一代人的成長環境。像我們前一代可能看東森幼幼、momo，這一代的人可能都看手機、看YouTube，我的孩子都在看Netflix或迪士尼的線上串流平台。兒童的收視習慣已經從電視頻道轉為網路串流，兒少節目該如何面對串流平台來做新媒體挑戰？這部分文化部是不是能幫忙協助，找到更好的一些相關製作動畫的臺灣企業、廠商，甚至培養、協助我剛剛所提蘑菇蘑菇之類的相關製作？畢竟最近的點閱率非常非常高，我也試著陪孩子一起聽，真的有一點洗腦。不管文策院或文化部，我都鼓勵能進一步接洽來協助他們。"],["王次長時思：不管是公視或文策院都非常樂意。剛剛也在報告中提到推出兒少頻道時，合資、合製的確是我們希望進行的方向，尤其是跟民間原來就有製作優質兒少節目能力的團隊來合作，可能是推出兒童節目最快的一個方式。剛剛委員提到林暐哲的製作，文策院其實已經在洽談相關的投資計畫……"],["羅委員廷瑋：董事長有想法是不是？"],["王次長時思：對，所以其實這些方向與委員所交代的，本來就是我們在推動的。"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：蘑菇蘑菇是知名音樂製作人林暐哲的公司做的，我跟他滿熟的，我們有在談這個事情。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我提的你可以認同，孩子真的滿喜歡的……"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：他之前做很多，也做動畫。"],["羅委員廷瑋：最近連林宥嘉都透過這些，不管是小行星或這些平台去放送他的新專輯。他說他的新專輯是寫媽媽的故事，媽媽希望下班以後聽聽林宥嘉的歌，進而介紹林宥嘉。我的小朋友才三歲就在唱林宥嘉的歌，而且是最新的。藝人都想到如何才能行銷，並透過媽媽的角度推廣給孩子，未來文化部是不是能夠結合這些知名的音樂創作人？可以嗎？"],["王次長時思：結合臺灣的IP當然是我們本來就希望做到的事情。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我們一起來努力，好不好？"],["王次長時思：會。"],["羅委員廷瑋：也期待董事長未來的進度與作為，謝謝。"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝羅廷瑋委員。","我們接下來請鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","我們接下來請王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","接下來請林倩綺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","葉元之","陳培瑜","何欣純","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","范雲","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","林月琴","陳冠廷","羅智強"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫─ 公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.11471875,"end":6.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.56159375,"end":7.30409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.624718750000001,"end":7.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.19846875,"end":8.805968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.83034375,"end":22.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.97221875,"end":27.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.97159375,"end":32.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.71784375,"end":35.67096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.85659375,"end":36.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.21096875,"end":38.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.80971875,"end":38.877218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.877218750000004,"end":39.04596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.04596875,"end":39.079718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.079718750000005,"end":39.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.66159375,"end":42.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.72471875,"end":71.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.73721875000001,"end":76.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.64409375000001,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.84159375,"end":80.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.94659375,"end":81.70596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.24596875,"end":84.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.08534375,"end":94.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.17221875,"end":99.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.09971875000001,"end":108.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.03096875,"end":108.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.33471875000001,"end":108.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.62159375,"end":109.71846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.24159375,"end":113.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.64221875000001,"end":113.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.27909375,"end":133.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.02284375000002,"end":133.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.46159375000002,"end":133.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.66409375,"end":163.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.18596875,"end":142.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.97159375,"end":202.15971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.46221875,"end":183.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.45784375000002,"end":184.57596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.15971875000002,"end":227.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.44471875000002,"end":214.46159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.36284375000002,"end":225.73409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.97846875000002,"end":242.62596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.30721875,"end":231.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.96471875,"end":235.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.44471875000002,"end":241.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.62596875000003,"end":261.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.71034375000002,"end":243.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.01971875000004,"end":261.47534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.47534375000004,"end":262.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.11659375,"end":262.15034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.15034375,"end":262.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.23471875,"end":267.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.38659375000003,"end":262.50471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.40721875,"end":265.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.02284375,"end":280.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.95034375,"end":273.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.97034375000004,"end":302.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.91096875,"end":282.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.50284375,"end":325.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.97159375,"end":383.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.48471875,"end":337.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.81346875,"end":340.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.29096875000005,"end":362.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.99909375000004,"end":366.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.43096875000003,"end":383.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.03846875000005,"end":384.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.33784375000005,"end":438.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.33284375000005,"end":390.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.85159375,"end":391.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.90221875000003,"end":392.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.55721875,"end":414.34596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.96659375,"end":444.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.02909375,"end":480.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.25971875000005,"end":497.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.65159375,"end":483.88784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.85784375000003,"end":488.37659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.60721875,"end":500.34096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.39159375,"end":503.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":503.07471875000005,"end":506.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":506.02784375000005,"end":539.2378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.20721875,"end":520.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.9622187500001,"end":521.0803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":539.7778437500001,"end":540.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.68909375,"end":542.4440937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.4440937500001,"end":542.8490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":542.8490937500001,"end":545.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":543.33846875,"end":643.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":557.88471875,"end":557.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":643.0359687499999,"end":675.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":668.0447187500001,"end":670.0022187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.0022187500001,"end":670.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":675.55409375,"end":681.5278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":681.5278437500001,"end":704.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":685.24034375,"end":686.3203437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":704.91659375,"end":722.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":721.40346875,"end":724.9640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":722.6184687500001,"end":723.5634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":724.9640937500001,"end":725.0147187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":725.0147187500002,"end":725.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.03159375,"end":725.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":725.04846875,"end":725.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":725.0990937500001,"end":730.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":725.92596875,"end":726.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":730.8703437500001,"end":731.4272187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.127,"end":8.509,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請文化部王正智好 王次長委員好好 謝謝正智我想請問一下我們這TICP2.0有什麼具體的成效不好意思 我剛剛沒有聽取委員的問題 不好意思"},{"start":29.022,"end":32.505,"text":"TICP 國際合作投資方案"},{"start":41.747,"end":68.906,"text":"是委員要問TICP 2.0嗎?對對對因為2.0是今年開始我們加大的一個方案它跟1.0不同的是我們使用國發基金進場然後取消原本的投資比例跟投資上限那2.0開始以來其實已經開始陸陸續續有一些大型的國際合資案在進行送案當中那因為這些送案其實還沒有開過國發必須遵守的正式投審會所以可能很多細節我現在不變得太"},{"start":70.107,"end":70.387,"text":"目前2.0應該陸陸續續有6、7家。"},{"start":95.219,"end":118.238,"text":"那有沒有測案跟補件中的?有一家其實 有一個案子兩家正在研擬要不要測案兩家?那目前還沒通過?應該還沒開會通過?那我想這個國際合作投資方案最主要的一個目的就是吸引外國來的一個"},{"start":120.34,"end":141.032,"text":"資方來跟我們臺商臺灣做合作那合資合製的一個電影增進產業的一個交流共國際接軌我想這個合作投資方案的內容必須要有誘因那這個誘因你覺得2.0有提升嗎當然提升因為我們應該知道因為從疫情過後跟因為全球大型平台載製整個製作費節節上漲的關係越是國際合製案製作費就越上漲"},{"start":145.535,"end":145.555,"text":"好。"},{"start":164.353,"end":186.658,"text":"我們看到這個美金有這個你所提告金額有上限但是我們來看一下是TICP的1.0跟2.0兩者最大的不同在於1.0很明確知道內容有哪些然後書面做審議那2.0變成通通都來申請我們會來審核當然然後有一個投審會會有投影其實之前你有跟我說過這個投審會有一個很重大的一個決策那"},{"start":187.638,"end":202.916,"text":"這個我想問一下不管是我們董事長跟次長好案子不缺錢但要吸引外國的人來跟台灣投資配套就要做好我們覺得2.0的金額雖然都有加大但是整體的預算也沒有變多那這樣子的配套到底哪邊有什麼不一樣"},{"start":203.436,"end":230.183,"text":"報告委員我不清楚為什麼其實我們整體預算是變多的因為使用國發基金目前其實光是國發基金匡列給文化部跟文車店就有高達100億的預算可以使用跟過去我們TICP 1.0的時候是每年其實文車店只有大概7000萬左右的預算這個其實比較起來這個大水庫跟小水庫天差地遠這個要跟我們報告你所提到的資料再麻煩你後續再給我提供一下好不好"},{"start":231.583,"end":250.972,"text":"但是現在外界質疑這個政策缺乏溝通跟不夠透明引發國人不只是國內的影視人員都有所疑慮影響對台灣的誠信你有掌握到這個完全掌握這個事情其實我們在第一時間也出面跟業者做溝通而且在一月開始有這樣相關的事情報導之後我們大概在"},{"start":252.072,"end":267.241,"text":"這三個月來我個人大概就參與了十幾場公開跟線下的說明會那務必讓每一個業者都清楚知道說這個改變是為了讓大家其實可以用所以你可不可以方便跟我們提一下就是說因為我們想知道你報宅說你有問過業者有問過哪些業者溝通過哪些業者"},{"start":270.584,"end":284.859,"text":"當然,包括飛望影業,包括奇影,然後包含其實有許多專門做國際球的製作者,一條龍虎豹,這些都在我們溝通的範圍當中。那看起來就是有做過公投,那有備而來。那TICP,我1.022年有13件通過。"},{"start":289.284,"end":312.239,"text":"如果這個資料有誤的話可以再跟我們做調整沒關係齁2023年有15件通過平均每個月都還有1件齁那2.0到目前的話的成績都還是0件啦因為你說還沒有審核嘛跟委員報告齁因為我們實施2.0方案就是因為之前業者有說如果我們2.0馬上上路怕他們原本已經要申請1.0的案件會來不及申請"},{"start":312.959,"end":340.795,"text":"會跟國外的資金斷鏈所以我們1.0其實繼續讓開放到讓他們申請到2月底為止所以他們其實今年的案子1.0是照常會申請因為你1月19就開始受理嘛對不對對那所以你1.0跟2.0是並行沒錯OK是好但因為如果我們不知道這件事情的話我會認為說2.0到目前已經有停擺三個月左右的一個時間了其實沒有沒有那所以你1.0有在做並行這是有一個很好的一個套是"},{"start":341.195,"end":359.551,"text":"好那我想這個銜接的過程啊1.0到2.0的轉換過程看起來有配套但是我們要知道中間一定會有一些瑕疵有問題我們要趕緊加緊去讓這些事情能夠瑕疵趕緊擬平沒問題要不然我想之前有上百位的引介人士聯署抗議這個你知道嗎完全知道"},{"start":360.191,"end":383.059,"text":"你都知道齁?完全知道,而且我覺得非常的過意不去。世界要一起連署這是一件不容易的事情,你們達到了這一個輝煌的一個成績,他們連署抗議。批評文策院在這個TCIP在這個轉換過於倉促,那我想這個部分你說你有做溝通,那後續這些溝通跟配套他們有一些相關的做法,你們有沒有去做採納或者是做研議?"},{"start":385.433,"end":410.771,"text":"就政策上來講,因為當然其實每個業者都會希望說政府對他們的照顧是越來越好。但我必須坦白跟各位報告就是說,文策院設立的目的是以商業化為目的。商業化跟國際化是文策院兩大KPI。那我們使用的政策工具是叫投資,不叫補助。那有一些業者比較遺憾,他們其實有點搞不清楚文策院使用的錢叫投資。各位,跟我們報告,投資叫將本求利。"},{"start":412.611,"end":437.501,"text":"他們希望我們義無反顧的支持這一點容我難答應他們所以在這一次的溝通基本上是你說服他們並沒有要去趕他們我不敢說我說服他們而是我們雙向的溝通一方面要讓他理解其實文策院真的是以商業化投資的角度出發那如果說有一些案子他完全是希望跟歐洲某些國家一樣是完全用政府的補助的話我們其實就比較難去做支持"},{"start":438.041,"end":459.791,"text":"好,那這個2.0現在補件你說還有幾家嘛,那補件的資料是要看多久?看多久?因為現在新的CEICP 2.0我們為了要讓這個無論是立法院的監督部、各位的監督我們要讓它更公開透明,所以我們都必須要遵照像國發基金的規定我們要開一個正式的有委員組成的投資成員委員會"},{"start":460.811,"end":477.405,"text":"那這樣的流程會依照金額不同也會有不同的流程一般來講如果需要我們投資在2000萬以下的金額大概需要大概3個月左右的時間那如果是在2000萬以上的金額會看金額個案大小不同可能會到3到5個月左右"},{"start":477.945,"end":478.706,"text":"台灣現在兒童節目自治的比例為多少?"},{"start":497.799,"end":521.215,"text":"現在台灣兒童自製的節目是低於百分之十。次長不好意思您聲音可以大聲一點嗎?聽不太到。如果是純台灣自製的節目是低於百分之十在整個用播出時數作為計算之下。2023年3月我們在這個也就是一年前台灣自製比例大概為8%左右全球排名倒數台灣的小朋友都在看國外的兒童節目我們不只是從孩童就在"},{"start":521.715,"end":540.589,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":540.731,"end":557.876,"text":"也是聽說,因為我自己沒有看啦。對,那羅莫夫在這最近蠻多人在唱這首歌啦。我想我目前去了解叫做小提大作兒童音樂社,看起來是台灣的一個相關的製作。"},{"start":559.096,"end":586.496,"text":"那我想這個部分我們能不能去我覺得自治率很低要看台灣的兒童節目要上哪看頻道有沒有過少那都買國外的一個節目最讓人擔心其實是文化壟斷無形中也是接收孩子在接收國外的資訊、文化次長拿資源做一些適合小朋友台灣小朋友的頻道本席認為是非常有益的是一件好事但是你再做再好再棒沒有人看也沒有什麼用大家需要培養的"},{"start":587.316,"end":603.789,"text":"那每一代人都有每一代的成長環境,像我們前一代可能在看東森悠悠啊、MOMO啊這一代的人可能都看手機、看YouTube那我的孩子都在看那個neckface或者是迪士尼的一個線上串流平台"},{"start":604.409,"end":616.159,"text":"那我想兒童的收視習慣從電視頻道轉為網路串流、兒少節目如何面對串流平台做新媒體挑戰我想這個部分是不是文化部能夠幫忙協助我們找到更好的一些相關製作動畫的台灣企業廠商"},{"start":621.423,"end":641.401,"text":"那甚至是培養甚至協助像我剛剛所提到的蘑菇蘑菇這些相關的製作我覺得他最近的點閱率是非常非常高而且我也試著陪伴著孩子一起來聽是真的有點點洗腦那當然我是鼓勵不管是文策院或者是文化部是不是能夠進一步的做接洽甚至幫他們協助他們"},{"start":643.103,"end":643.984,"text":"董事長有想法是不是?"},{"start":675.585,"end":687.97,"text":"蘑菇蘑菇是那個知名音樂製作人林偉哲公司做的啦對所以我們其實我跟他蠻熟的我們在談這個事情好那我所提到這個你可以認同啦齁因為我覺得孩子是真的也蠻喜歡蠻多他是創作音樂他也做動畫你知道最近連林宥嘉"},{"start":689.651,"end":703.453,"text":"他都透過這些不管是小行星啊這些平台去放送他的新的專輯但是他配合了他的新專輯是寫說他的媽媽的故事媽媽希望下下班以後聽聽林宥嘉的歌啊然後進而介紹林宥嘉讓"},{"start":705.031,"end":705.051,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"151764","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151764","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce158119d71350e9eb75c97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed0ff4b879f96c0ee755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"12:20:51 - 12:27:19","影片長度":"00:06:28","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":388,"end_time":"2024-04-25T12:27:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T12:20:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1099,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（12時20分）請部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：吳委員好。"],["吳委員春城：許部長，剛才阿楷說請你一個月提出計畫，一個月後你還在嗎？你會交嗎？"],["許部長銘春：一個月後不在啦，如果是一個月內，這個時間太緊了，因為剩沒幾天啊，今天已經25號了。"],["張委員啓楷：去高雄找他！"],["吳委員春城：去高雄找你！"],["許部長銘春：沒有啦，要找何部長，這個計畫要找何部長。"],["吳委員春城：你確定回去高雄嗎？有確定嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我住高雄啊！我要回家啊！我520以後就回家。"],["吳委員春城：喔，是回家。回家做什麼？我要問一下部長的下一步啊！"],["許部長銘春：委員，我要先休息一下，因為六年多……"],["吳委員春城：我有看到說休息是為了走更長的路……"],["許部長銘春：對啦、對啦……"],["吳委員春城：所以你後面有計畫？"],["許部長銘春：然後我再好好想一想我的壯世代第三人生要做什麼。"],["吳委員春城：對，所以我今天就是要問你這個問題，因為將心比心，像這次的情況，我覺得突然的退休通知好像時間也太短了，突然通知，然後就要做人生的一個計畫，我們來看一下，就是這一點。其實我今天也不是要質詢，最主要是表達慰勞之意，謝謝部長，真的辛苦了，六年多在這個崗位上的工作，但是的確未來路很長，你現在還很年輕啊，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對啦，我還沒60歲，但是……"],["吳委員春城：你壯世代啊！"],["許部長銘春：但是我是壯世代！"],["吳委員春城：一定要規劃第三人生，而且你做過勞動部長，一定要以身作則做為典範。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["吳委員春城：因為我們現在的退休人口有600萬人，就像螢幕上的這二張圖片，我們整個政府都在為60歲以前的生活來打造社會，但當你打開60歲這扇門，一推出去就是這個景象，一片沙漠。我要問部長的是，請問退休以後歸誰管？政府哪一個部門在管退休以後的人？"],["許部長銘春：退休歸誰管？"],["吳委員春城：有沒有人知道？如果想了半天都想不出來，就表示沒有人在管啦！自己管自己啦，自生自滅啦！但這個部分有600萬人！部長，勞工一輩子都在為我們工作，貢獻社會，所以我在這裡也特別為他們請命，其實在還沒有退休前，勞動部應該扛起這個責任，好好的來回饋他們，不是只想說他們趕快怎麼去退休，趕快走就好了，對不對？你現在的心情應該是更加的有所感觸啦！"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["吳委員春城：好，很多人也跟你一樣，我們這麼多退休族群。剛才我也聽到了，其實在退休以後，大部分的人真的不知道要做什麼，一開始喔，不曉得部長現在心情是怎樣，有沒有像我們當兵快待退的時候是很開心，請問你現在的心情怎麼樣？開心、期待還是？"],["許部長銘春：就是比較輕鬆，其實當部長，我每天都戰戰兢兢。"],["吳委員春城：OK，其實大部分的人，不管是去工作，大部分人對於退休都沒有規劃，都沒有計畫，就突然好像中了一個病毒，時間到了就想要退休，但其實他是沒有任何準備的，你看這些數據，都沒有任何準備就退休，退休以後就進入一個很長的時間。其實在這一段時間裡面，大家對於未來是不是可以早退後工作的部分，OK，我們現在的中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法裡面有提到，在退休前一年，可以提供退休的準備、調適等相關的協助，只有1年的時間。你想，我們的孩子要用10年的時間從第一人生進入第二人生，他們是寒窗十年無人問，好好的準備，但是我們從第二人生要進入第三人生幾乎都沒有準備，像跳斷崖一樣，突然某一天就跳下去了，然後就回不來了。我覺得在這裡去銜接第二人生及第三人生，雖然勞動部對於這個退休準備與調適有協助措施，但是對於退休準備的規劃也是非常簡單，只是辦理課程、團體活動、個別諮詢，就是大概很簡單、簡陋的應付一下，其實這個一年的退休準備，我覺得應該好好的把這個事情納入在我們勞工的輔導服務裡面，一來是要把時間延長，二來就是內容要加強，是不是可以這樣子？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["吳委員春城：所以部長也可以再交代我們部內的同事，去調查並真正瞭解他們退休的計畫，然後對退休規劃的想法，還有對退休的預前準備，可不可以這樣？"],["許部長銘春：謝謝委員，其實去年我們在推壯世代就業的時候就已經有一些想像，上一次拜訪委員之後，我們的業務單位都已經把這個納入他們盤點的重點，所以委員您放心，我們的業務單位一定會全力以赴。"],["吳委員春城：你會交代就對了。"],["許部長銘春：對，已經交代下去了，這個已經交代下去了，他們也已經開始在做了，等到他們有一些成果出來後再向您報告啦。"],["吳委員春城：好啦，後續還是，也祝福部長，然後繼續跟大家一起努力。謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝吳春城委員發言。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員，鍾佳濱委員不在。","接下來請何欣純委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.3597187500000003,"end":3.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.76034375,"end":4.6715937499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.806593750000001,"end":5.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.101593750000001,"end":12.130343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.41784375,"end":9.109718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.704093750000002,"end":13.716593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.88971875,"end":17.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.47971875,"end":19.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.15471875,"end":20.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.027843750000002,"end":20.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.090968750000002,"end":23.48721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.31034375,"end":25.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.80784375,"end":28.414718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.60471875,"end":29.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.79846875,"end":31.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.11909375,"end":32.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.31284375,"end":33.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.99596875,"end":37.493468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.02971875,"end":35.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.54409375,"end":39.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.87284375,"end":40.564718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.95721875,"end":41.931593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.02034375,"end":45.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.416593750000004,"end":47.635343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.88846875,"end":52.680968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.204093750000006,"end":55.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.71846875000001,"end":82.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.15721875,"end":85.72221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.72221875000001,"end":85.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.89096875,"end":88.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.44346875000001,"end":89.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.75971875,"end":102.34409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.44721875,"end":91.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.71534375,"end":114.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.30971875,"end":106.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.91596875,"end":115.62471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.18596875,"end":115.21971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.09721875000001,"end":124.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.61471875000001,"end":127.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.55096875,"end":129.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.71096875,"end":133.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.30159375,"end":132.28034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.42784375000002,"end":137.17409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.18721875,"end":135.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.34284375000001,"end":156.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.42721875,"end":137.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.60409375,"end":139.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.72221875,"end":139.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.52534375000002,"end":158.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.63909375,"end":164.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.92534375,"end":163.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.33846875,"end":180.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.81471875,"end":169.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.40034375000002,"end":175.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.45409375,"end":195.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.67971875,"end":196.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.98346875000001,"end":196.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.02971875,"end":201.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.04659375,"end":197.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.17284375000003,"end":199.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.69159375,"end":209.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.80409375000002,"end":226.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.03346875000003,"end":239.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.91784375,"end":238.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.75721875000002,"end":245.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.15284375000002,"end":247.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.19909375,"end":247.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.21596875,"end":247.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.57034375,"end":248.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.12284375000002,"end":249.69659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.78096875000003,"end":250.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.33784375000002,"end":250.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.16471875000002,"end":267.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.10471875,"end":257.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.97221875,"end":278.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.28409375,"end":270.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.12659375000004,"end":289.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.31909375000004,"end":291.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.44534375,"end":294.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.02284375,"end":302.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.16534375000003,"end":301.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.46909375,"end":301.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.54909375,"end":302.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.67534375,"end":305.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.94096875,"end":342.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.80159375,"end":307.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.53659375,"end":328.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.92034375000003,"end":330.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.30346875000004,"end":335.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.15971875,"end":337.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.29846875000004,"end":340.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.69471875000005,"end":354.11909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.32721875000004,"end":345.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.67721875,"end":346.98096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.92159375,"end":349.09034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.49909375000004,"end":352.81971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.19096875,"end":353.20784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.27534375000005,"end":360.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.71784375000004,"end":357.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.86096875000004,"end":359.28284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":360.90284375000005,"end":361.94909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.30784375,"end":361.32471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":362.43846875,"end":367.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.78784375000004,"end":368.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":368.10846875000004,"end":369.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.40784375000004,"end":369.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.96471875000003,"end":370.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.45409375,"end":370.96034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.96034375000005,"end":371.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.28096875,"end":378.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.33159375,"end":372.25971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.66471875,"end":373.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.13721875000005,"end":373.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.81221875,"end":374.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.74034375,"end":376.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.10284375000003,"end":386.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.14846875,"end":382.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.75534375,"end":386.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":387.44721875000005,"end":388.44284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.383,"end":4.251,"text":"那個部長（請許部長對許部長（"},{"start":7.328,"end":33.013,"text":"剛才阿凱在問說一個月,一個月要請你教,一個月你還在嗎?你會教嗎?一個月內我說我這時間太白了,全部幾天啊。對。我今天幾號?25號。我今天要去高雄找你。要找何部長。你覺得你要去高雄嗎?你會去高雄嗎?高雄嗎?我住高雄啊。我要回家啊。我以後就回家。回家做什麼?"},{"start":35.02,"end":54.478,"text":"我要問一下部長的下一步啊。我要先休息一下。因為你有6年多。我有看到說休息為了走更長的路。對啊對啊。然後我再好好想一想我的重視在第三人生要做什麼。對。所以我今天就是要問你這個問題。因為你將心比心。對不對。像這一個"},{"start":55.916,"end":81.947,"text":"我覺得這個退休突然通知好像時間也太短了突然通知然後人生的一個計畫來我們看一下就是這一點我還是這個一來我想今天也不是要質詢最主要是表達慰勞之意謝謝這個部長真的辛苦6年多在這個崗位上的工作"},{"start":83.228,"end":104.298,"text":"但是的確未來路很長,你現在很年輕啊,你壯世代啊,一定要規劃第三人生,而且你要做勞動部長一定要以身作則,做為典範,因為我們現在退休的人有600萬人,就像這樣,我們整個的政府"},{"start":104.898,"end":106.819,"text":"退休以後歸誰管?政府哪一個部分在管退休以後的人?退休?"},{"start":130.979,"end":131.519,"text":"其實這還沒有退休錢"},{"start":157.914,"end":180.274,"text":"勞動部應該扛起這個責任好好地來回饋他們不是只想說他們趕快怎麼去退休趕緊照顧好對不對你現在心情應該是更加的更加有所感觸好但是很多人也跟你一樣這個我們這麼多的退休的族群"},{"start":181.553,"end":196.23,"text":"那剛才我也聽到了這個其實我們退休以後大部分的人真的不知道要做什麼一開始不曉得部長你現在心情是很像我們在當兵快要帶退的時候的時候很開心你現在心情怎麼樣很開心期待還是"},{"start":197.111,"end":225.113,"text":"就是比較輕鬆啦其實當部長每天都沾沾津津其實大部分的人就是其實不管是去工作啦工作這個大部分人對於退休都沒有規劃都沒有計畫就突然好像有一個中的病毒那這時間到以後就想要退休其實他是沒有任何準備的你看這個數據當中都沒有"},{"start":227.076,"end":229.999,"text":"在這段時間裡面就是勞動部這也是一個大家對於未來是不是可以找退工作"},{"start":249.215,"end":265.53,"text":"接下來我們現在的中高齡及高齡者就業促進法裡面有提到這個就是在退休前一年可以提供這個退休的準備調適還有相關的協助"},{"start":268.572,"end":293.97,"text":"只有一年的時間。你想我們的孩子要用十年的時間去從第一人生,他要進入第二人生,他要用寒窗十年,無能問,好好的準備。但是我們從第二人生要進入第三人生,幾乎都沒有準備。像在跳斷崖一樣,就突然想到一天就跳下去了,然後就回不來了。"},{"start":295.091,"end":299.779,"text":"那我覺得在這裡去銜接第二人聲、第三人聲、勞動部我想"},{"start":304.724,"end":328.945,"text":"接下來那整個的但是退休的準備也是非常的簡單只是辦理什麼辦理課程、團體活動、個別諮詢就是大概很簡單很簡陋的應付一下那其實這個一年前告知其實我覺得好好把這事情納入在我們的勞工的一個輔導服務裡面一來把時間延長"},{"start":331.647,"end":352.224,"text":"二來就是內容要加強,是不是應該這樣子?所以部長也可以再交代對我們部內的同事,對於調查這個真正了解他們退休的計畫,然後對退休規劃的想法,然後這個對退休的預遷的準備。"},{"start":353.625,"end":372.112,"text":"謝謝委員其實去年我們在推這個壯世代的就業的時候就已經有一些想像了然後上一次拜訪委員之後我們其實業務單位都已經把這個納入他們盤點的重點所以這個委員您放心啦我們業務單位一定會全體服務你會交代就是了一定交代下去啊"},{"start":372.592,"end":373.833,"text":"但是後續還是也祝福部長繼續跟大家一起努力。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151763","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151763","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15e5fd4cb95169ad28c97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed099b21507dc6a303f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"12:12:08 - 12:20:45","影片長度":"00:08:37","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":517,"end_time":"2024-04-25T12:20:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T12:12:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1030,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（12時12分）謝謝主席，請「阿春仔」部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：張委員你好。"],["張委員啓楷：部長你好。我們是老朋友。昨晚發生一件很不幸的事情，有一位本來要成為我們國家未來的棒球明星選手，他是在臺中臺灣體育大學王牌的守護神，結果昨晚被失聯移工駕車撞擊，經搶救後不治了，一條年輕的生命就走掉了。你知道這件事嗎？"],["許部長銘春：委員，很抱歉，我早上沒有follow到，因為我趕著來立法院，所以這則沒follow到。"],["張委員啓楷：這個移工會失聯，當然也有他可憐的地方。去年監察院提出了「一群在臺灣沒有身分的人，移工為什麼失聯？」，就是要探討這個問題，我看你們也提了很多相應的措施，包括要召開跨部會的合作、加強輔導雇主加強選工、避免雇主的不當對待等等。你看這個案子，可憐的失聯移工撞死了一個年輕人，他應該是沒有駕照，也沒有強制保險，所以應該也沒辦法理賠，這事情很嚴重！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，這個我們會來協助，會後我會請同仁……"],["張委員啓楷：你也是很有名的律師，這是人命關天的事情！大家都是很善良的人。"],["許部長銘春：我們會來提供協助，520後我也可以來幫忙。"],["張委員啓楷：你看這個失聯移工出現了這個問題，等到起訴、審判完，可能連審判都沒有，大概就只能遣返，而且他沒有保險，這個年輕人家裡面大概也不可能得到什麼理賠，所以請想一下看怎麼幫忙他們。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員跟我們說這個案件，我會來處理。"],["張委員啓楷：第二，監察院去年底提出這個意見之後，你們說要加強處理這個問題，現在失聯的移工有減少嗎？"],["許部長銘春：失聯率有降，報告委員，最高是在111年的時候，是5.96%，去年降到4.2%，有降下來啦！"],["張委員啓楷：部長，那天監察院提出意見後，你們有說人數有在趨緩，你剛才也說有下降，請看這個趨勢圖……"],["許部長銘春：我是說去年。"],["張委員啓楷：「阿春仔」部長，這是勞動部的資料、圖表，我覺得兩個地方會是大問題，第一個就是2021年3月到2022年8月，像沖天炮這樣衝上去，這是第一個，這可能因為疫情，可是這個趨勢圖最嚴重的是什麼？就是衝上去之後3年居高不下，去年底你本來說要處理，結果是人越來越多，創歷史新高，現在是8萬5,229人。"],["許部長銘春：委員，這不只包括移工，連外國人士都包括在裡面。"],["張委員啓楷：你的意思是不只有失聯移工而已？"],["許部長銘春：這不是只有移工，這裡是包括逾期居留的外來人口，外來人口不是只有移工。"],["張委員啓楷：現在扣掉後剩多少人？失聯移工你現在的統計是多少？"],["許部長銘春：我剛才扣掉，大概……"],["蔡署長孟良：我跟委員報告，現在如果以失聯發生的移工來看，像111年的人數是最高，一年有4.1萬發生失聯，但是經過我們跟移民署做一些加強查緝工作，112年，就是隔年，一年當中就已經降到3.1萬，就是從4.1萬降到3.1萬，這是第一個；第二個，比率的部分，因為比率會受到整體人數的影響，疫後我們一直有在引進，在移工人數增加的情況下，我們的失聯率還是有改善、下降，現在失聯率已經從最高的5.96%降到4.2%了。"],["張委員啓楷：你的意思是進來比較多……"],["蔡署長孟良：對！對！對！"],["張委員啓楷：失聯比率算是下降，但人數看起來還是不少，對不對？"],["蔡署長孟良：但是人數……"],["張委員啓楷：我先講兩個重點，第一個，當然我知道那時候衝上去是因為疫情，所以後來疫情結束以後，你們做了一些改善。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["張委員啓楷：可是老實講，人數還是多的，我現在比較關心的是第二部分，就是比例可能有降低，可是人數還是多，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：對，所以我們要繼續努力。"],["張委員啓楷：對，不要讓人家誤解了這個數目字，不要讓人家覺得好像在粉飾太平或者沒有解決問題，這樣也不好。"],["許部長銘春：沒有！沒有！委員，我們絕對不會粉飾太平，我們會面對問題，只是要跟大家說的是，的確是有下降，因為看失聯率是比較準。"],["張委員啓楷：比率有降，但人數可能沒有……"],["許部長銘春：人數可能……"],["張委員啓楷：因為進來的人比較多，跑掉的也多，所以……"],["許部長銘春：對，但是我們會持續努力，因為這件事情可能還要一段時間，就像疫情開始之後，它也是延續到第三年突然衝上來，我們現在邊境管制解封了，各種該開放的我們也開放了，還有一些媒合，包括調整家庭看護工的薪資待遇等等，我有信心後面會持續降下來。"],["張委員啓楷：會持續降？"],["許部長銘春：對！但不是這樣我們就滿足了，絕對不會因此就滿足，絕對還是覺得不滿意，我們要繼續努力。"],["張委員啓楷：部長，這些人要怎麼找回來？你知道這些失聯移工在什麼地方嗎？你們怎麼找人？"],["許部長銘春：其實我們知道現在是營造、農業最多，當然查緝是移民署他們的權責，我們當然是配合的單位，就是國安團隊要來配合，這個部分……"],["張委員啓楷：我的意思是，如果知道就要馬上去處理，對不對？一直留在那邊……"],["許部長銘春：移民署……"],["張委員啓楷：我們當然不希望這種不幸的事情再發生，他們在那邊也是可憐，說實在的，失聯的移工如果真的生病了怎麼辦？現在還會出現什麼狀況？有些是生了小孩，就是黑數寶寶，老實說，你如果知道這樣的情況真的是會掉眼淚的，我們要讓那種不幸的事情可以少一點，所以如果知道就趕快去找，要就媒合他去做新的工作，如果是不合法的、已經不行了，可以送回去的就送回去，要不然對臺灣也是一個社會問題。"],["許部長銘春：移民署也會加強查緝，包括像去年就鼓勵他們自動到案等等，我們採取各種多元的措施來解決這個問題，這個問題我們都是跨部會……"],["張委員啓楷：你現在要離開這邊了，我們來做一個找回失聯移工的計畫，好不好？來得及做嗎？半年內最少要把10%的失聯移工找回來，這個標準應該不高吧？一年內20%，可以嗎？我們訂個目標，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：委員，這是一個很好的期許，我們來跟移民署一起努力，好不好？"],["張委員啓楷：訂這個目標，你給我一個計畫，我本來想說一個月內提出計畫，但你就離開了，要找佩珊嗎？"],["許部長銘春：沒關係，業務單位還在，然後新的部長會來，不用煩惱！"],["張委員啓楷：要不要早一點，在你520離開之前，提給我這個計畫？"],["許部長銘春：這個有點困難，我現在只剩下幾天了。"],["張委員啓楷：就是一個月內給我這個計畫，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["張委員啓楷：這個計畫你怎麼訂，當然就是要知道人在哪裡，早一點去把他找回來。"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["張委員啓楷：第二個，目標我們非常明確喔，半年要降10%、一年降20%，這個要求應該不高吧，對不對？OK嗎？你給我一個計畫。"],["許部長銘春：我們跟移民署來討論，因為這個要跟移民署討論的啦。"],["張委員啓楷：對，討論完，第一個，一個月內要給我這個計畫，第二個就是裡面最少要有這兩個重點，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["蔡署長孟良：那個內容我們再跟移民署來討論。"],["張委員啓楷：好喔？可以喔？"],["許部長銘春：一個月內。"],["蔡署長孟良：一個月沒有問題。"],["張委員啓楷：你回去高雄我還是會去找你，這個案就這樣定了喔？OK？至少這個目標要達到，一年內要降20%……"],["許部長銘春：好，我們一個月內提出具體計畫。"],["張委員啓楷：其實這算是做好事啦，不要讓他們流落在外面，如果可以、合適再工作，就幫他們轉介，真的不行了，就讓他們回去啦，好不好？避免不幸事情再發生，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。","接下來請吳春城委員發言"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.87721875,"end":13.817843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.087843750000001,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.72846875,"end":21.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.17971875,"end":21.192218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.44534375,"end":21.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.49596875,"end":22.17096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.73221875,"end":26.136593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.828468750000003,"end":31.570343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.58721875,"end":31.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.637843750000002,"end":36.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.97534375,"end":31.992218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.02096875,"end":37.932218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.657843750000005,"end":41.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.446593750000005,"end":41.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.30284375,"end":42.92721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.85971875,"end":43.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.46721875,"end":48.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":49.508468750000006,"end":55.836593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.242218750000006,"end":53.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.58346875,"end":56.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.017843750000004,"end":57.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.92909375,"end":67.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.22284375000001,"end":69.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.26471875,"end":83.19096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.70284375,"end":75.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.22471875000001,"end":84.64221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.80659375,"end":89.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.01284375,"end":89.29971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.29971875000001,"end":91.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.35034375000001,"end":89.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.20221875,"end":95.32409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.93159375,"end":96.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.80909375,"end":97.92284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.92284375000001,"end":103.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.78721875000001,"end":104.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.79534375,"end":109.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.46971875000001,"end":118.18971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.10659375,"end":112.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.51034375,"end":120.13034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.29909375000001,"end":122.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.25659375000001,"end":125.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.84721875000001,"end":122.88096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.88096875000001,"end":122.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.10409375,"end":126.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.52596875,"end":126.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.77909375,"end":129.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.14159375,"end":129.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.19221875,"end":129.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.61409375,"end":131.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.14971875,"end":131.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.60534375,"end":132.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.46596875,"end":135.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.98909375,"end":133.37721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.62596875,"end":136.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.98846875,"end":138.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.67596875,"end":141.19034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.83159375,"end":144.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.76784375,"end":148.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.12159375000002,"end":156.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":157.06971875000002,"end":158.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":158.97659375,"end":160.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.22534375,"end":160.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.24221875,"end":162.13221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.25909375,"end":160.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.87471875,"end":176.98221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":168.81471875,"end":170.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.58659375000002,"end":171.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.96159375000002,"end":174.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":174.02909375000002,"end":174.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.33284375000002,"end":174.34971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.85971875,"end":180.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.04909375,"end":181.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.63971875000001,"end":183.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.73221875000002,"end":193.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.05659375000002,"end":187.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.41096875000002,"end":187.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.85721875000002,"end":195.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.74284375000002,"end":198.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.20659375000002,"end":207.22221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.83846875,"end":206.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.93534375000002,"end":207.34034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.64409375000002,"end":207.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.71159375000002,"end":223.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.96784375000001,"end":216.23346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.24534375000002,"end":221.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.62909375,"end":227.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.34159375000002,"end":226.67909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.55659375000002,"end":228.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.97409375,"end":229.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.10471875000002,"end":232.53471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.83846875,"end":235.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.41596875000002,"end":249.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.83659375000002,"end":245.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.71346875,"end":271.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.21471875,"end":255.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.55596875000003,"end":258.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.77534375,"end":259.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.42471875,"end":261.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.74534375,"end":261.82971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.86284375,"end":266.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.73971875,"end":281.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.02221875000004,"end":274.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.44346875,"end":277.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.05034375,"end":292.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.03596875,"end":292.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.62659375000004,"end":293.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.81221875,"end":294.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.26346875,"end":301.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.31409375000004,"end":295.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.20784375,"end":299.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.24159375,"end":299.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.39346875,"end":299.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.52846875,"end":310.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.84846875,"end":304.50659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.81409375000004,"end":309.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.59846875,"end":310.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.68284375,"end":314.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.80096875000004,"end":311.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":313.02846875,"end":334.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.17284375,"end":334.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.24034375,"end":334.49346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.84346875,"end":341.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":338.61096875000004,"end":341.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.96909375,"end":349.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.00284375,"end":342.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.25909375000003,"end":352.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.25409375000004,"end":355.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.05971875,"end":371.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.61159375,"end":362.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.17971875,"end":371.23034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.23034375000003,"end":371.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.24721875,"end":371.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.36534375,"end":371.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.41596875000005,"end":371.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.50034375,"end":371.51721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.51721875000004,"end":371.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":371.53409375,"end":371.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.65221875000003,"end":374.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":375.12846875,"end":379.56659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.83659375,"end":383.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":381.49034375,"end":382.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.71346875,"end":387.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.37534375,"end":388.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.88159375000004,"end":397.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.64471875000004,"end":392.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.69534375,"end":392.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.79659375,"end":392.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.21846875,"end":393.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.88034375,"end":397.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.51721875000004,"end":405.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.28471875,"end":401.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.35221875,"end":401.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.52096875,"end":401.79096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.70221875000004,"end":402.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":405.97596875000005,"end":419.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.94034375,"end":418.27784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.29034375000003,"end":420.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.97784375000003,"end":424.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.65659375,"end":427.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.84159375,"end":429.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.76971875000004,"end":435.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.32159375000003,"end":435.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.04721875,"end":438.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":438.66284375000004,"end":439.30409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.43909375000004,"end":442.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":442.81409375000004,"end":446.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.03721875,"end":451.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.97721875,"end":453.04034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.09534375000004,"end":452.41596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":452.73659375000005,"end":454.30596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.74909375000004,"end":454.39034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":454.32284375,"end":458.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.87096875000003,"end":457.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.84971875,"end":460.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":462.06846875,"end":463.90784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":463.97534375000004,"end":467.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":466.11846875000003,"end":466.69221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":466.69221875000005,"end":466.72596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.21096875,"end":472.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.39596875,"end":474.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.41659375,"end":478.06596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.96034375000005,"end":479.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":479.11221875,"end":480.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.90534375000004,"end":480.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":480.95159375000003,"end":483.60096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":484.02284375000005,"end":486.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.15346875000006,"end":490.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":490.53659375,"end":490.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.16096875000005,"end":491.48159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.78534375000004,"end":491.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.86971875,"end":491.90346875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":491.90346875000006,"end":491.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":491.98784375,"end":492.00471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.37596875,"end":493.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":493.35471875,"end":494.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.04659375000006,"end":494.50221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":494.65409375,"end":517.8234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":494.70471875000004,"end":494.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.90221875000003,"end":500.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":501.26909375,"end":501.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":501.31971875000005,"end":502.97346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.97346875000005,"end":504.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.38659375000003,"end":505.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":509.97659375,"end":509.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.29721875,"end":510.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.83284375000005,"end":512.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.14909375,"end":513.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.7397187500001,"end":513.9084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":513.99284375,"end":514.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.4484687500001,"end":514.7690937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.75,"end":25.326,"text":"張祺凱委員致謝主席。請阿村阿保定。林徐部長。林委員你好。保定你好。老朋友。我先問你一件三個發生很不幸的事。"},{"start":26.894,"end":56.001,"text":"昨晚我們有一位本來是要成為我們國家這個棒球位一個明星的選手他是在台中的這個臺灣體育大學王牌的這個守護神結果昨晚啊被我們這個失聯的這個移工啊駕車撞擊那搶救後來不治了一條年輕的生命就走掉了你知道這件事嗎?很抱歉委員我可以不follow到嗎?因為我光要來立法院所以這條不follow"},{"start":58.696,"end":82.641,"text":"這個移工會失聯當然也有它可憐的所在了我看去年剛才提出的這個一群在臺灣沒有身份的人移工為什麼要失聯提出這個就是要探討這個問題我看你們也提了很多的相應的這個措施嘛包括你說你要召開這個跨部會的這個合作要加強輔導雇主加強選工避免雇主的不當對待你看這個案"},{"start":85.868,"end":95.119,"text":"可憐的失聯移工撞死了一個年輕人你看他應該是沒有駕照對不對也沒有強制的這個保險所以他也沒辦法理賠啊"},{"start":97.017,"end":124.166,"text":"這事情很嚴重耶!是!我們...報告委員這個我們會來齁...我們要協助啦!我這個會後我請同仁來...好!你也很有名就輸!阿這個人命關鍵的事情!我們都很現有的人啦!我有理由我也跟他幫忙!因為第一你看這個移工出了這個問題!這失聯的這個移工!他起訴審判完大概...可能連審判都沒有!大概整個遣還嘛!他沒有保險!你看這個人!這個年輕人!"},{"start":126.842,"end":135.178,"text":"家裏面大概不可能得到什麼禮賠啦。好不好,想一下看怎麼當。好,好。來,到三天。好,好。就是委員講這個案外的事情。那第二就是,今天年底講完後,"},{"start":138.697,"end":149.646,"text":"你們說你們要加強去處理這個問題嗎?那現在有減少嗎?失聯率這個移工有減少嗎?失聯率有降我們報告委員我們最高的就是111年的時候5.96去年降到4.2降到4.2"},{"start":159.034,"end":164.575,"text":"我看你們提的是說人數有在趨緩嘛,你剛才說還有人,我看這個趨勢圖,我現在查的是你勞動部,這是你勞動部的資料,你看喔,這個圖我看了兩個地方,我是會覺得是大問題,第一就是"},{"start":181.693,"end":197.808,"text":"2021 二零二一年的三月到了2022年的八月像沖天炮這樣衝上去嘛 對不對這是第一個 這可是疫情啦齁可是最嚴重的 我覺得痛嚼痛的 這個趨勢就是痛嚼痛的 什麼就是衝上去之後三年居高不下"},{"start":199.244,"end":225.344,"text":"對不對?就表示說你去年代你本錢你說要去處理啊現在結果人越來越多現在創歷史新高現在是85,829億這是包括不是移工啦包括其他外國人士都包括在裡面你都不只是私人的移工嗎?這不是只是移工喔他這裡包括預期居留的外來人口外來人口不是只是移工現在剋掉多多少人?那個私人的移工你現在的統計是多少?"},{"start":227.586,"end":232.138,"text":"我看扣掉了齁,大概...我們現在在那個...那個..."},{"start":236.468,"end":260.908,"text":"我跟委員報告現在如果以失聯發生的移工像111年其實人數是最高一年有4.1萬發生失聯但是因為經過我們跟移民組因為要加強做一些查詢112年就隔年已經降到一年降到3.1萬就是從4.1萬降到3.1萬這第一個第二個比率因為比率會受到整體人數因為我們現在疫後因為一直在引進"},{"start":261.929,"end":284.87,"text":"因為移工人數增加之下,但是我們的失聯率還是改善下降。我們現在失聯率已經從最高5.96%現在已經降到4.2%了。你可不可以進來比較多嗎?失聯比例算是降,可是人數看起來還不足對不對?但是人數也降。但是我想我先說兩個重點,第一當然我知道那時候衝上去後來是因為疫情嘛,所以後來疫情結束以後你們做一些改善嘛。"},{"start":285.87,"end":309.499,"text":"可是老實講人數還是多的,我現在同關心的其實是第一部分就是說你雖然比例可能有降低,可是人數還是多嘛對不對?我們不要讓人家,第一個不要誤解了這個順目字,第二個不要讓人家覺得好像粉飾太平,或者沒有解決問題,這樣就很好我以為我們絕對不會粉飾太平,我們的面對問題,這是跟大家說的,說的確是有降,因為要看失聯率比較重比例有降,人數可能沒有"},{"start":311.319,"end":334.587,"text":"因為進來人比較多,跑掉的也多,所以...對,但是我們持續會努力,因為這個事情可能還要一段時間,你就像疫情之後,它也是延續了第三年,哇,全部都撐起來。那我們現在邊境管制解封了,我們現在各種,包括開放我們的開放,還有一些媒合,包括提供家庭康復工的薪資待遇等等。"},{"start":335.888,"end":346.483,"text":"我覺得我有信心後面會持續降下來。會持續降。會持續降。那我們先來看一下怎麼做。所以不是說我們這樣就覺得不滿意。我們繼續努力。國長,你人要怎麼找回來?你知道現在的四年的移工第三所在嗎?"},{"start":354.298,"end":381.266,"text":"你怎麼找人?因為這個部份大概...其實我們知道現在大部分都是在營造農業最多啦。營造農業?茶器當然茶器是移民署他們的選擇啦。我們當然是配合的單位,國安團隊也配合啦。這個部份當然...我意思是知道就快要處理啊。對不對?一直留在那裡。移民署...我們當然不希望這種不幸的事情再發生啦。對不對?如果說他們在那裡也可憐,說實在的。因為你說那10年的移工"},{"start":384.701,"end":405.964,"text":"對。"},{"start":406.044,"end":422.472,"text":"因為我們他這邊也加強查緝啦,包括像去年就鼓勵他們自動到案等等,這個我們都各種多元的措施來解決這個問題,這個問題就是我們都是報告…阿聖部長,你現在要離開這邊,我們來做一個叫做找回失聯移工的計畫好不好,會不會遭到,來來看看,來。半年來上次就要把10%的這個失聯移工找回來,今年這個標準應該不高吧?"},{"start":436.83,"end":460.371,"text":"20%可以這樣嗎?我們訂個目標好不好?我們來跟這個委員這個齁是一個很好的一個提取啊我們來跟移民署齁這個會來拍片好不好?訂這個目標啊你給我一個計畫一個我本來想說一個院內提計畫你就照去啊我早早配在那裡啊沒關係啊這樣還沒啦業務單位還在然後新的部長會來不用煩惱你要不要早一點你520離開之前你給我這個計畫"},{"start":464.95,"end":477.779,"text":"這是一個月內給我這個計劃好不好這個計劃你怎麼訂當然就是要早一點去知道人在哪裡早一點去把它找回來那第二個目標我們非常明確喔半年要降10%一年降20%所以要求應該不高吧對不對"},{"start":478.971,"end":481.532,"text":"我們跟移民署來討論,因為這是要跟移民署來討論。"},{"start":499.02,"end":499.321,"text":"謝謝張祺凱委員接下來請吳春晨"}]}},{"id":"151762","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151762","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce159864963ccbfb32bd20df1bb4ac2af973c68e374cd8c4bed07f55414fe2fddc5c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"12:08:55 - 12:17:05","影片長度":"00:08:10","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":490,"end_time":"2024-04-25T12:17:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T12:08:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":882,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（12時9分）謝謝召委，有請公視董事長。"],["主席：好，請胡董事長。"],["胡董事長元輝：委員好。"],["范委員雲：董事長好。針對公視第三台轉型的部分有問題要請教您，當然如果您的權限無法回答的話，也可以再讓我們知道，好嗎？我是非常的樂觀其成，就是公視三台轉型為兒少頻道，也很高興文化部的黑潮計畫6億元的資金給公視製作兒少節目，很好，這是一件非常重要的事，因為兒少就是我們國家的未來。","但是我有點擔心這個轉型會不會排擠到我們原來的藝文跟體育節目的內容？所以想請教董事長，您知不知道我們轉型這個部分，是文化藝術還是體育出了什麼問題，還是我們純粹就是要兒少？因為公視2022年的年度報告，第三台是以文化藝術跟國內外的體育賽事為主，公視過去也把自己當作是國內藝術濃度最高、最重視文化藝術的電視頻道，這個部分有沒有一個檢討報告、有沒有轉型的計畫，以及之後文化跟體育方面比重的討論呢？"],["胡董事長元輝：向委員報告，在做轉型的時候，我們做過評估，您關注到體育的部分，第一個，我們在主頻還是會播；涉及到兒少體育的部分，公視兒少台裡可以再處理；藝文的部分也是一樣，我們會在相關的頻道裡面做平衡的處理。","特別跟委員報告，我們在加速數位轉型，所以相關的體育跟藝文，包括在我們現在的OTT平臺「公視+」，還有其他的網路平臺包括YouTube等等，我們都會來加強處理，這點可以請委員放心。"],["范委員雲：好，所以你們未來的兒少台本身就不再處理文化跟體育嗎？就是會轉移到別的部分。"],["胡董事長元輝：兒少的體育會在兒少台處理……"],["范委員雲：兒少的體育才在兒少……"],["胡董事長元輝：對，跟兒少有關的藝文會在兒少頻道；其他的部分，基本上就頻道來講，會到公視主頻，甚至還有台語台、客家台，分別擔負他們在多元文化方面的藝文跟體育的責任。"],["范委員雲：所以就是只有跟兒少相關的文化、體育才會留在兒少台嘛！其他就轉移到別的部分。當然這是你們的一個選擇，我想提供一下別的國家的例子，我們辦公室研究NHK的兒少頻道也播文化節目；體育賽事直播……當然你剛剛講體育賽事的部分有別的頻道。這是NHK的部分。BBC的部分，BBCFOUR主要就是藝文的，兒童的部分有 CBBC跟CBeebies，可是你可以看到在實際的作法上，它針對6歲以下兒童的CBeebies，跟FOUR名稱上是不一樣，但是其實是共享一個頻道的不同時段，因為兒少活躍的時間跟成年人不一樣，所以兒少活躍的時間就播兒少節目，入夜後就播藝文節目，這也是一種處理的方式。我想無論是NHK跟BBC，你可以看到他們努力的在有限的頻道裡面，同時重視兒少跟文化、運動賽事，這些部分並沒有顧此失彼。","您剛剛講到好像也沒有顧此失彼，可是就比例上這個部分有沒有一個規劃？就是未來兒少活動占比、藝文活動占比跟體育活動占比，然後還有之前我們兒少的藝文跟體育占比的規劃呢？可以請問您嗎？是不是有這樣規劃？"],["胡董事長元輝：的確沒有在比例上做一定的要求，不過在政策方向上，是做剛才提到的這樣的處理，我們內部也在研議，是不是跨平臺有重要國際賽事的時候，我們所有的頻道可能都要做相關的因應處理，這點我們也沒有排除在外，跟委員報告一下。"],["范委員雲：瞭解，因為您剛剛說並沒有針對這個比例討論，我還是希望能夠促請你們往這個方向走，因為我覺得有個比例的話……。這是你們過去的節目型態的部分，譬如說新聞占百分之三十九、藝術文化等等，我還是希望能夠保障，畢竟公視是唯一能夠不用考慮商業的頻道，就藝文跟體育的方向，讓大家都能夠平等的觀看。這個部分你們是不是能夠參考國際經驗，不管是NHK或者是BBC，往這個方向做比例上的規劃，然後可以給本席一個報告呢？"],["胡董事長元輝：好，我們來處理。"],["范委員雲：好，另外我也想問大家都關心的國內外體育賽事，我是非常的支持我們公視要努力爭取重要賽事的播映權，公視2016年、2021年都有轉播奧運。我們看到新聞說2024年中華電信取得新媒體轉播權，MOD還有Hami Video可看，我想問一下2024年公視會不會有相關的合作呢？因為我覺得國人如果不用額外付費，可以看到我們國家代表隊的重要賽事，非常的重要。請問一下，公視有沒有這方面的規劃爭取呢？"],["胡董事長元輝：跟委員很明確的報告，2024年的巴黎奧運，我們都已經跟相關的單位愛爾達做好了討論，我們確定有轉播權，而且合約已經簽訂完成。"],["范委員雲：謝謝，所以確定我們不需要付費，就可以在公視頻道看到？"],["胡董事長元輝：是的。"],["范委員雲：好，這是非常重要的好消息，未來也希望是往這個方向好嗎？因為公視畢竟是國家的，也是全民的。","接著，我也想針對文化部國表藝下轄的三個場館，每年都有非常多優質的藝文節目，文化部其實有很好的先天條件，我們可以爭取把這些表演節目線上化，疫情期間其實就有這麼做嘛！疫情期間，文化部有努力的讓表演線上化供大家觀賞，我想國家也可以在這部分努力，而公視是不是也可以爭取？不管是在你們的頻道，或者是網路頻道這個部分，因為網路上事實上也有收費的可能性，我知道有些人會認為表演節目好像不應該免費觀看，但如果可以處理相關議題，未來是不是能夠爭取部分線上化於公視，或是在公視＋上面播出呢？"],["胡董事長元輝：這個部分我們現在在頻道上面有固定的時段在處理，但是如果線上的部分，會涉及到我們的預算跟其他方面的資源，不過我們來積極考慮。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝，希望你們積極規劃一下，因為我覺得這部分也非常的重要，而且公視最有責任讓大家能夠共享。","最後，就是剛剛所講的，藝文節目跟體育賽事的轉播，你們未來這方面，如何能夠跟兒少節目共存共榮，需要在比例上完整的規劃，您剛已經答應給我辦公室一個報告，好不好？這報告我大概什麼時候可以拿到呢？"],["胡董事長元輝：我們一個月內。"],["范委員雲：一個月內？好，謝謝董事長。"],["主席：謝謝范雲委員。我們接下來請羅廷瑋委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","葉元之","陳培瑜","何欣純","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","范雲","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","林月琴","陳冠廷","羅智強"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫─ 公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.82346875,"end":9.818468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.78784375,"end":17.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.36159375,"end":98.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.80034375000001,"end":135.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.94784375,"end":100.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.26721875,"end":142.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.55721875,"end":161.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.79346875000002,"end":144.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.50596875000002,"end":148.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.29784375,"end":155.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.55846875,"end":253.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.26971875,"end":273.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.01596875,"end":258.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.40784375000004,"end":261.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.28784375000004,"end":316.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.80846875000003,"end":317.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.39471875000004,"end":358.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.94534375,"end":371.34846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.96971875,"end":365.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.48409375,"end":367.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":371.66909375,"end":437.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.84159375,"end":375.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.71346875,"end":438.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.76409375000003,"end":438.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":438.79784375,"end":453.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.47096875000005,"end":451.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.86721875,"end":481.27221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.79534375000003,"end":482.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":482.33534375000005,"end":483.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.19596875,"end":483.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":483.61784375,"end":484.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.68096875000003,"end":487.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.88284375,"end":490.55346875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.182,"end":5.283,"text":"請胡董事長"},{"start":16.806,"end":38.08,"text":"委員好董事長好我想針對公視第3台轉型的部分有問題要請教您那當然就是說如果您的權限無法回答的話也可以再讓我們知道好嗎我想我是非常的樂觀其成就是公視3台轉型為兒少頻道那也很高興文化部的那個黑潮計畫6億元的資金給公視製作兒少節目"},{"start":42.023,"end":42.163,"text":"拜訪董事長"},{"start":61.867,"end":86.836,"text":"那想請問一下董事長您知不知道就是我們轉型這個部分是文化藝術這邊體育出了什麼問題還是我們純粹就是要兒少因為公視2022年的年度報告是以第三台是以文化藝術跟國內外的體育賽事為主那這部分公視過去也把自己當作是國內藝術濃度最高最重視文化藝術的電視頻道"},{"start":88.877,"end":114.09,"text":"那這個部分有沒有一個檢討報告那有沒有轉型的計畫跟之後文化跟體育方面的比重的討論呢向委員報告就是在做轉型的時候我們做過評估那您關注到這個體育的部分我們第一個我們在主評還是會播那涉及到兒少體育的部分我們也會在公視兒少台裡可以再處理"},{"start":114.79,"end":142.034,"text":"那藝文的部分也是一樣我們會在相關的頻道裡面做平衡的處理那特別跟委員報告的是我們在加速數位轉型所以相關的體育跟藝文包括在我們現在的OTT平台公視家還有其他的網路平台包括YouTube等等我們都會來加強做處理這點可以請委員放心所以就是你們未來的這個兒少台本身就不再處理文化跟體育這個部分嗎?"},{"start":142.894,"end":161.396,"text":"就是兒少的體育會在兒少台處理跟兒少有關的藝文會在兒少頻道其他的部分我們基本上就頻道來講會到公視、主評甚至還有台語台、客家台分別擔負他們在多元文化方面的藝文跟體育的責任"},{"start":161.596,"end":186.084,"text":"所以就是只有那個跟兒少相關的文化體育才會留在這個兒少台嘛其他就轉移到別的部分那當然就是說這是你們一個選擇那我想提供一下別的國家的例子那我們辦公室研究就是NHK的他的兒少頻道也播文化節目那體育賽事直播當然你剛講體育賽事的部分有別的頻道這是NHK的部分"},{"start":186.944,"end":199.159,"text":"BBC4主要就是藝文的兒童的部分有CBBC跟CBBICE可是你可以看到在實際的做法上針對6歲以下兒童的CBBICE"},{"start":202.182,"end":205.928,"text":"是跟4名稱上是不一樣但是其實是共享一個頻道的不同時段因為兒少活躍的時間跟成年人不一樣所以兒少活躍的時間就播兒少節目那入夜後就播藝文節目"},{"start":218.105,"end":236.017,"text":"這也是一種處理的方式,我想無論是NHK跟BBC你可以看到,他們努力的在有限的頻道裡面同時重視兒少,然後文化跟運動賽事的這些部分並沒有顧此失彼,那所以您剛講到好像也沒有顧此失彼,可是就"},{"start":236.377,"end":236.397,"text":" ﹝提問﹞"},{"start":254.732,"end":273.828,"text":"的確沒有在比例上做一定的要求不過在政策方向上是做剛才提到的這樣的一個處理不過我們也內部也在研議是不是跨平台有重要國際賽事的時候我們所有的頻道可能都要做相關的應用處理這點我們也沒有排除在外跟我們報告一下"},{"start":273.968,"end":274.108,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":295.635,"end":316.096,"text":"因為畢竟公視是唯一一個能夠以就是不用考慮商業就藝文跟體育的方向能夠讓大家都能夠平等的觀看的那這個部分是不是你們能夠參考國際經驗不管是NHK或者是BBC那往這個方向做一個比例上的規劃然後可以給本席一個報告呢?"},{"start":316.82,"end":343.997,"text":"好 我們來處理好 那另外我也想問大家都關心的這個國內外的體育賽事那我是非常的支持我們公視要努力爭取重要賽事的播映權那公視2016年2021年都有轉播奧運那我們看到新聞就是2024年中華電信取得新媒體轉播權MOD還有這個哈密video可看我想問一下"},{"start":345.337,"end":370.622,"text":"2024年公視會不會有相關的合作呢?因為我覺得國人如果可以不用額外付費可以看到我們國家代表隊的重要賽事非常的重要那可以請問一下公視有沒有這方面的規劃爭取呢?有,跟委員很明確的報告我們2024年的巴黎奧運我們都已經跟相關的單位這個愛爾達做好的討論那我們確定有轉播權而且合約已經簽訂完成"},{"start":372.418,"end":400.167,"text":"謝謝所以確定我們不需要付費就可以在公視頻道看到那這是非常重要的好消息那未來也希望是往這個方向好嗎因為公視畢竟是國家的也是全民的那最後呢我也想針對就是國表藝就是文化部國表藝下轄的3個場館每年都有非常多優質的藝文節目那文化部其實有很好的先天條件那可以我們可以爭取把這些表演的線上化"},{"start":401.007,"end":401.047,"text":"主席"},{"start":416.388,"end":437.668,"text":"您的頻道或者是網路的頻道這個部分喔那如果是能夠因為網路上事實上也有收費的可能性因為我知道有些人會認為說表演節目好像是不應該免費觀看但如果可以處理這相關議題的話那未來是不是能夠爭取部分線上話於公視或是公視plus上面播出呢?"},{"start":440.176,"end":452.687,"text":"這個部分我們現在在頻道上面是有固定的時段在處理但是如果線上的部分會涉及到我們的預算跟其他方面的資源不過我們來積極考慮"},{"start":455.229,"end":481.109,"text":"謝謝希望你們積極規劃一下因為我覺得這部分也非常的重要而且是公視最有責任就是能夠讓大家能夠共享最後就是剛剛所講的就是藝文節目跟體育賽事的轉播這部分就是你們未來的這方面如何能夠跟兒少節目共存共榮需要在比例上完整的規劃您剛已經答應給我辦公室一個報告好不好這報告大概什麼時候我可以拿到呢?"},{"start":482.21,"end":483.772,"text":"謝謝范雲委員"}]}},{"id":"151761","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151761","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15bf932716ecbef2afc97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed0bf7ab48b64f636445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"12:05:46 - 12:12:05","影片長度":"00:06:19","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":379,"end_time":"2024-04-25T12:12:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T12:05:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":976,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（12時5分）謝謝主席，勞動部長有請。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：委員好。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長辛苦了，今天談就業服務法，談歧視禁止跟外國勞動力的權益保障，第一個問題是歧視禁止的問題，就業歧視分成直接歧視、差別對待，跟間接歧視、差別影響這兩種類型，當然禁止就業歧視的相關法令實施運作已經蠻多年，這種一望即知的、直接性的歧視基本上已經大幅減少了，對不對？這有點成績。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：但相對來講，有時候我們講上有政策，下有對策，直接歧視變少，可是隱匿、難以明確辨識的案件類型叫做間接歧視，其案件反而有變多的趨勢，譬如說雇主徵才的廣告，我們在談平等的時候，他們不會講限年齡、限性別，因為這叫直接歧視嘛！"],["許部長銘春：嗯。"],["牛委員煦庭：可是他們會說壯志青年、女性佳，這樣的訊息就等於是在打擦邊球，客觀上來講，其實對於特定群體就業機會造成了負面影響，進而剝奪了勞動市場平等參與的機會，按照主管機關勞動部的認定，應該屬於間接歧視，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，有這樣的一個狀況。大家現在面對這樣的問題時，勞動部的解決方式是什麼？你們有沒有一些積極的作為？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，如果像這種當然要看個案，那種間接的部分就是看個案，每個地方政府都有就歧會，如果有人來申訴的話，其實可以召開就歧會的會議來……"],["牛委員煦庭：我是希望能做一下統整……"],["許部長銘春：然後我們也會來宣導……"],["牛委員煦庭：對，因為你們宣導，表示你們一定有做資料蒐集……"],["許部長銘春：是、是。"],["牛委員煦庭：你們一定有彙整，大概也會知道常見的這種間接歧視的樣態是什麼……"],["許部長銘春：對、對。"],["牛委員煦庭：既然你們都知道這樣的樣態，其實你們可以比照，比如有些時候我們講管食安的時候不能廣告不實，它就有一個檢核表，哪些方向是踩線的，至少要有一個框架出來嘛！"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：相對來講，避免就業間接歧視的廣告檢核表，我認為勞動部可以做，其實難度不高、成本也不高，稍微做一下整理，然後拿這個表格去做宣導，是不是也讓這些廣告業者有法可以遵循吧？可不可以？"],["許部長銘春：可以。"],["牛委員煦庭：這部分我希望勞動部來做一個研擬跟處理啦，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：好。"],["牛委員煦庭：這是小的事情，但我想這對於反歧視這件事情是有正面意義的。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：第二個要談外國勞動力的權益保障，現在我們去談經濟發展的時候，一方面我們常常在這個委員會談到的是碳的焦慮，對不對？相對來講，我們在勞動部質詢的時候，談的是人權焦慮，因為現在大家都希望用一個好的人權標準去保障勞工的權益，有這樣子的機制去促進自由貿易，所以它過去叫道德加分題，但現在叫做法律必考題，如果沒有完成這些東西，其實相對於產業來講，競爭力就會受到一些影響。","現在我們談外國勞動力引入的問題，比如說美國責任商業聯盟（RBA）就有講零付費行為準則等等，諸如此類的，過去都從建議開始變成強力要求，換言之我們在引入外籍移工投入本國勞動就業市場的時候，這部分應該是未來勞動部要面對的一個很大的挑戰，所以現在政府明文禁止收仲介費，對不對？避免仲介形同人口販運，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是現在一樣，我剛剛講上有政策，下有對策，現在不收仲介費，叫每月服務費，就一樣嘛！它有換湯不換藥的問題。"],["許部長銘春：那個不一樣。服務費沒有勉強的，那個就是你有服務才有啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：對，但是實務上的機制來講，它常常就變成換一個方式來做轉嫁，我就提醒一下。","再者，我今天要談的主要問題是，既然我們未來都有這樣的需求，我們終要面對這樣的問題，那我們是不是應該多……勞動部其實有提供直接聘僱的政策方案嘛，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["牛委員煦庭：但是以我們在基層的瞭解，其實程序還是非常的繁瑣，以至於實務上來講，大家還是會基於方便來考量，當然仲介業者存在的道理，就是因為解決這些疑難雜症，所以我可以理解。但是既然未來我們會面對這樣一個問題，我要求勞動部，至少在直接聘僱這樣的一個機制裡面，你要有一些政策的誘因去鼓勵企業、鼓勵商家，或者是鼓勵個人，你可以多加使用直接聘僱，去降低中間的紛擾，這個方向部長應該不會反對吧？"],["許部長銘春：不會。"],["牛委員煦庭：方法是什麼呢？我們現在有直聘的服務中心，但就只是到一個窗口去做事情，本質上……"],["許部長銘春：不只喔！我們其實不會只是有一個窗口來收文件而已。"],["牛委員煦庭：那是具體的程序啦！因為我們有去明查暗訪，實際上就程序來講很繁瑣，所以有沒有什麼其他的精進措施，可以減低行政成本？"],["許部長銘春：有！報告委員，我們持續在檢討，然後最近這1個月也會再開會，邀集相關的團體、相關的專家學者，大家就怎麼樣精進討論出一個方案。"],["牛委員煦庭：這個部分還是希望你們來做，就是提高企業在直聘機制的一些誘因，比如說給予政策補貼、優惠或什麼的，以節省他一部分的成本，鼓勵他走直聘這條管道，我覺得這是可以被商量的。第二個，我們也不是全盤否定仲介業者，既然有仲介業者的存在，你總要有一套完整的評鑑、檢查跟稽核機制。"],["許部長銘春：有！有！有！都有評鑑。"],["牛委員煦庭：優劣分級要更清楚，你們要有具體的分級機制。"],["許部長銘春：有！有！有！"],["牛委員煦庭：這部分也要同時來做強化，就是鼓勵直聘然後仲介要納管，要逐步來做處理，我們才能夠因應未來所謂人權焦慮的問題。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：部長也可能下一任不是在勞動部，這麼多的事務官……"],["許部長銘春：確定不在、下一屆不在、520後就不在……"],["牛委員煦庭：若是該做的事情，就不分是誰做部長啦！"],["許部長銘春：這個政策都是延續的啦！"],["牛委員煦庭：都是延續性的政策，所以希望部長在最後的時間趕快把這個東西規劃一個期程出來，以改善我們不管是就業歧視或者是外籍移工歧視的問題，可以嗎？"],["許部長銘春：可以。"],["牛委員煦庭：辛苦了，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝牛煦庭委員。","接下來請張啓楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.907218750000002,"end":10.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.235968750000001,"end":12.062843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.859718750000003,"end":81.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.03784375,"end":37.20659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.22346875,"end":37.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.16784375,"end":42.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.61971875,"end":67.24409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.80721875,"end":85.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.72221875000001,"end":86.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.48159375,"end":86.78534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.98784375000001,"end":88.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.63721875,"end":95.00346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.79659375,"end":96.04971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.18471875,"end":102.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.06971875,"end":103.89659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.26784375000001,"end":114.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.03471875000001,"end":113.09346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.96659375,"end":146.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.21096875,"end":118.99971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.11346875000001,"end":121.14284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.04034375,"end":129.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.68096875,"end":134.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.82784375,"end":138.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.89534375,"end":138.96284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.25346875,"end":142.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.87721875,"end":149.56034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.54784375,"end":151.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.72909375,"end":151.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.33221875,"end":151.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.55159375000002,"end":157.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.77909375000002,"end":154.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.51284375,"end":156.64784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.98096875000002,"end":228.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.16659375,"end":158.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.95534375,"end":160.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.06721875000002,"end":227.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.69159375,"end":235.48784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.78346875000003,"end":256.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.92409375000003,"end":252.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.75034375,"end":272.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.95284375,"end":257.18909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.83221875000004,"end":280.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.64534375,"end":281.11784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.89846875,"end":282.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.67034375000003,"end":283.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.29471875,"end":284.25659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.44659375000003,"end":284.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.25659375000004,"end":289.70721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.15034375,"end":289.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.23471875,"end":293.36909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.60534375000003,"end":302.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.88346875,"end":296.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.35096875,"end":305.63721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.95784375,"end":318.74909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.11659375,"end":351.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.06096875000003,"end":321.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.83284375,"end":323.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.38909375000003,"end":327.70971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.33721875000003,"end":335.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.07971875000004,"end":336.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.93971875,"end":342.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.23034375000003,"end":344.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.66034375000004,"end":348.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.68909375000004,"end":353.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.54534375000003,"end":353.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.79846875000004,"end":360.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.42659375,"end":361.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.22346875,"end":377.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.03721875,"end":367.92284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.07846875,"end":371.34846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.58846875,"end":376.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.96784375000004,"end":377.03534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.42346875000004,"end":378.79034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.07284375,"end":380.42721875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.109,"end":0.83,"text":"好,謝謝主席。勞動部長有請。請許部長。"},{"start":16.703,"end":30.642,"text":"部長辛苦了今天談就業服務法這個談歧視禁止跟外國勞動力的權益保障那第一個問題是歧視禁止的問題這個就業歧視分成直接歧視差別對待跟間接歧視就差別影響這兩種類型"},{"start":32.304,"end":49.927,"text":"那當然這個禁止就業歧視法這個實施運作已經還蠻多年那這種一望即知的這種直接性的這種歧視基本上已經大幅減少了對不對這有點成績但相對來講相對來講有的時候我們講上有政策下有對策這個直接歧視變少可是"},{"start":51.988,"end":71.118,"text":"這個隱匿難以明確辨識的案件類型叫做這個間接歧視的案件反而有變多的這個趨勢比如說顧主爭財的廣告我們現在談平等的時候就會說他不會講說限年齡限性別因為這叫直接歧視嘛可是他會說這個壯志青年女性家"},{"start":71.898,"end":94.301,"text":"這樣子一個訊息,等於打擦邊球。那麼客觀上來講,其實對於特定群體的就業機會造成什麼負面影響?進而剝奪了勞動市場平等參與的這個機會。那按照主管機關、勞動部這樣認定,應該屬於間接歧視對不對?嗯哼,是。好,有這樣一個狀況嘛。那大家現在面對這樣子的一個問題的時候,你勞動部的解決方式是什麼?你有沒有一些積極的作為?"},{"start":97.354,"end":120.702,"text":"當然要看個案那種間接的部分就是看個案然後其實每個地方都有就業就期會如果有人來申訴的話其實就是可以召開這個就期會的會議我是希望做一下的統整然後我們也會來宣導對因為你宣導嘛表示你一定有做資料的蒐集你一定有彙整你當然也會知道常見的這種間接其實的樣態是什麼"},{"start":121.622,"end":150.8,"text":"那既然你都知道這樣的樣態的時候其實你可以比照比如說有些時候我們講說這個管食安的時候就不能廣告不實它就有一個檢核表哪些方向是採線的你至少要有一個框架出來嘛那相對來講這種避免這個就業的間接歧視的這個相對來講都廣告的檢核表我認為這是勞動部可以做那其實難度不高成本也不高稍微做一下整理然後你拿這個表格去做宣導是不是讓這些廣告業者或什麼人家也有法可以遵循嘛對不對這一部分我希望"},{"start":151.901,"end":169.822,"text":"勞動部來做一個研擬跟處理啦好不好這小的事情但我想對於這個反歧視這件事情我想是有正面意義的喔那第二個要談外國這個勞動力的權益保障啦現在當我們去談經濟發展的時候大家一方面我們也常常在這個委員會談到就是碳的焦慮對不對"},{"start":170.563,"end":194.531,"text":"但相對來講我們在勞動部質詢的時候談到人權焦慮啊因為現在大家都希望說用一個好的人權標準去保障勞工的權益那這個有這樣子的一個機制然後去促進所謂的自由貿易所以它過去啊叫道德加分題但現在叫做法律必考題因為你如果沒有完成這些東西其實在對產業相對來講競爭力就會受到一些影響現在啊這個我們去談這個外國勞動力引入的問題嘛"},{"start":195.151,"end":214.729,"text":"比如說美國責任商業聯盟、RBA就有講零付費行為準則以及等等諸如此類的過去都從建議開始變成強力要求換言之我們在引入外籍的移工投入本國的勞動就業市場的時候這部分應該是未來勞動部面對很大的一個挑戰所以我們現在"},{"start":215.49,"end":233.337,"text":"政府明文禁止收仲介費對不對因為避免仲介變成形同人口販運嘛對不對但是現在一樣嘛我剛剛講上有政策下有對策現在不收仲介費叫每月服務費就一樣嘛他有換湯不換藥就有問題那個不一樣那個仲介費跟服務那個服務費沒有勉強的那個就是說你有服務才"},{"start":233.837,"end":252.111,"text":"才有啦對但是實務上的機制來講它常常就變成我換一個方式來做轉嫁我就提醒一下那第二個我今天要談主要的問題啦是說既然我們未來都有這樣的需求我們終要面對這樣子的一個問題那我們是不是應該多你勞動部其實有提供所謂的直接聘僱的的政策方案對不對"},{"start":252.892,"end":272.394,"text":"但是以我們在這個基層的了解其實程序還是非常的繁瑣啦所以以至於實務上來講大概是方便嘛那當然仲介業者存在的道理就是因為解決這些以南雜但是我可以理解但是既然未來我們會面對這樣子的一個問題的時候我是要求勞動部這邊啊你至少在直接聘僱的這樣子一個機制裡面你要有一些政策的誘因嘛"},{"start":272.995,"end":282.582,"text":"你要去鼓勵企業、鼓勵商家或者是鼓勵個人來講你可以多加的使用直接聘僱去降低這個中間的紛擾這個方向部長應該不會反對吧?"},{"start":282.582,"end":293.249,"text":"不會好不好那方法是什麼呢?我們現在有職聘的服務中心對不對?但你只是到有一個窗口去做事那本質上... 不止喔那個我們其實不會說只是一個窗口收文件而已"},{"start":293.669,"end":314.167,"text":"但是具體的程序,因為我們有去明查暗訪,實際上程序來講很繁瑣。有沒有什麼其他的精進措施可以減低行政成本?報告委員,我們持續在檢討,然後我們最近這個月內也會在開會,邀請相關的團體、相關的專家學者,大家就這個怎麼樣的精進。"},{"start":316.589,"end":332.96,"text":"這個經濟法案是希望來做啦提高企業在職聘機制的一些誘因嘛比如說給予政策補貼、優惠或什麼的節省他一部分的成本去鼓勵他走職聘的這條管道這我覺得這是可以可以被商量那第二個就是我們也不是全盤否定仲介業者但既然仲介業者存在"},{"start":333.42,"end":339.867,"text":"你總要有一套完整的評鑑、檢查跟集合的機制嘛 這個優劣分級要更清楚你們要有具體的分級機制好不好 這部分也要同時來做強化就是說鼓勵職聘然後中間要納款 要越來越處理嘛我們才能夠因應這個這個未來這個"},{"start":351.818,"end":351.838,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151760","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151760","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce153dde2d12029b7f4b20df1bb4ac2af973c68e374cd8c4bed097f1fb66da22dd955ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:02:09 - 12:08:51","影片長度":"00:06:42","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":402,"end_time":"2024-04-25T12:08:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T12:02:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":845,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（12時2分）謝謝主席，我們有請王次長還有公視董事長。"],["主席：好，有請王次長跟胡董事長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：我請教一下，公視今年8月就要創造一個兒少傳播平台，我們是感到很開心。在這個平台及新媒體的服務，針對不同年齡的兒童，分別有不同的規劃來製作節目，幫助兒童適應、發展，本席非常支持全面升級，同時我們也需要思考怎麼樣藉由這樣的平台來達成多元共融、文化共融的目的。目前在學校上課的新二代有40萬人……"],["王次長時思：新住民。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是就學了二十九萬多，所以我們也希望透過這個平台，讓他有更多不同的頻道去學習。我們希望透過這個頻道增加一些元素，這樣就會減少我們的新二代在學校受到霸凌。我們要教小孩，但是有時候很多新住民的媽媽不敢帶小孩，跟他們一起進入學校的家長會，也導致小孩失去很多信心，所以我們希望透過這樣的多元化，讓大家可以有這樣的元素，建立兒少全面的價值觀。要如何選題材，還有如何選多元的文化，讓更多人可以接受並達成共融？請教一下。"],["王次長時思：我想委員所說的正是我們現在希望透過公共電視來達到的目標，特別針對兒少頻道來說，公共電視目前的規劃會針對分齡提供不同的節目型態，特別是在語言上跟族群上，語言上，除了臺灣原本已經在使用的臺語、客語、原住民語外，還有新住民語，所以現在公視也有自製新住民語節目，有65集越南語節目的這個計畫，目的就是希望可以透過多元的節目規劃，讓族群之間互相理解，只有互相理解才能夠學習互相尊重、平等對待。我想在兒少的頻道上，我們希望小朋友從小時候就理解臺灣是一個多元文化、多元族群的所在，大家在這個環境裡面可以適應，也可以認識、平等對待不同的族群跟使用不同語言的人，這個才會是讓臺灣的文化能夠提升、對文化價值能夠有保障的觀念。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，這個大家都知道，但是剛才我們前面的委員也有提，我們的題材是什麼？我們怎麼樣真的達到這樣子的多元文化？這個才是我們要的重點……"],["王次長時思：各式各樣的題材。"],["麥委員玉珍：因為以教育來說的話，我們就是要把不同國家的教育、文化放進來，這樣我們的兒童就瞭解不同的生活還有文化，才能達到共榮，所以我們希望納入這樣子的元素。剛才有聽說我們有各國的語言，原住民、客家語還有新住民語嘛！對不對？"],["王次長時思：是。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是新住民語這個部分，剛才我聽其他委員問的時候有說，我們是不同的時段播出嘛！對不對？"],["王次長時思：就是帶狀節目，但是有不同的時段。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，但是不同的時段，這個時段有可能是小孩子已經睡覺了，誰來看？等於播出就沒有達到這個效果嘛！"],["王次長時思：一方面這個節目目前規劃帶狀是在八點多啦！所以基本上應該還是在兒童可收看的範圍。第二，其實我們也在平臺上架，所以他也可以透過選擇的機制去看，不會受限於……"],["麥委員玉珍：可以在不同的時段……"],["王次長時思：不受限於時段。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們有選擇的時間嗎？"],["王次長時思：它是在網路上架。"],["麥委員玉珍：同樣的時段，我們可以選擇不同的語言嗎？"],["王次長時思：它在網路上架的時候，就可以選擇在想要收看的時段收看，不受限於頻道在特定時段……"],["麥委員玉珍：是在網路嘛！在電視上就沒有嘛！在網路就是……"],["王次長時思：電視上的頻道就是固定的時段，但是在網路就可以選擇。"],["麥委員玉珍：固定的時段是中文嗎？"],["王次長時思：沒有，在整個頻道的帶狀裡面有分，有中文的、有臺語的、有客語的，在不同的天數、不同星期數，有不同節目的播出。"],["麥委員玉珍：現在新住民語的話，我們納入幾種語言？"],["王次長時思：目前越南語已經在製作當中，大概會持續的進行其他語種的規劃。"],["麥委員玉珍：希望我們增加幾個語言，好不好？不要只有越南……"],["王次長時思：我們會。"],["麥委員玉珍：這樣子的話，我就會被其他國家打，你是越南的就只有顧越南，沒有顧到其他語言。"],["王次長時思：主要是看製作團隊產製的能量。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以希望針對印尼、菲律賓，3個國家先優先，後面我們做好了再增加其他的語言，可以嗎？不要只有越南而已。"],["王次長時思：我們基本上就是看製作團隊的能力，因為要有製作這個特定語種的團隊，才有辦法產出這樣的節目。"],["麥委員玉珍：剛才說公視裡面現在有很多不同國家的頻道，所以我們也可以在這邊增加一點心啦！因為我們現在少子化，要生小孩的人就不多了，把更多資源用在兒少這邊才是真正要栽培我們下一代啦！希望這個部分要增加多一點，因為現在生小孩的新住民比較多，所以要求不會過分啦！好，以上，謝謝。"],["王次長時思：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員。","我們接下來請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","葉元之","陳培瑜","何欣純","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","范雲","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","林月琴","陳冠廷","羅智強"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫─ 公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.8915937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.90784375,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.14409375,"end":5.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.73409375,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.809718750000002,"end":12.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.805343750000002,"end":13.919093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.57721875,"end":17.04096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.294093750000002,"end":19.454093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.824718750000002,"end":23.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.84159375,"end":24.398468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.883468750000002,"end":25.90034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.90034375,"end":26.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.351593750000003,"end":27.874718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.937843750000003,"end":129.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.97971875,"end":85.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.23846875,"end":135.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.87034375000002,"end":136.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.88721875000002,"end":196.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.90409375000002,"end":137.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.28721875000002,"end":196.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.62471875,"end":253.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.38221875000002,"end":210.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.77846875,"end":213.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.79034375,"end":245.15721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.56096875000003,"end":254.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.23159375000003,"end":255.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.55221875,"end":255.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.77159375000002,"end":255.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.82221875000002,"end":255.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.83909375000002,"end":256.31159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.31159375000004,"end":257.08784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.08784375,"end":266.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.03159375,"end":282.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.48909375,"end":294.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.34096875,"end":285.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.19721875,"end":286.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.39909375,"end":291.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.46596875,"end":302.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.19909375000003,"end":309.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.10596875000005,"end":303.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.01284375,"end":309.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.66596875000005,"end":321.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.44096875,"end":320.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.97221875,"end":323.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.19534375,"end":330.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.96659375,"end":331.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.21971875,"end":331.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.25346875,"end":353.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.80534375,"end":337.61534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.43721875,"end":345.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.98534375,"end":346.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.68034375,"end":361.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.69721875000005,"end":355.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.18971875,"end":361.76346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.76346875,"end":361.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.96596875,"end":388.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.96846875,"end":373.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.83096875,"end":395.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.26096875,"end":391.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.43721875,"end":398.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.91784375000003,"end":402.46596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.071,"end":25.895,"text":"謝謝主席我們有請王次長還有公視董事長好 有請王次長跟胡董事長委員好好"},{"start":28.993,"end":32.957,"text":"我請教一下我們公視今年8月就要創造一個我們的兒少傳播這樣就是我們是感到很開心但是在這個平台及新媒體的服務針對不同的年齡的兒童"},{"start":49.914,"end":53.336,"text":"分不同的規劃來製作這樣的節目幫助兒童適應的發展本席非常支持全面升級的保障同時我們也需要思考怎麼樣藉由這樣的平台有那個多元共榮"},{"start":67.102,"end":72.384,"text":"文化共榮這樣子的一個平台目前我們在學校上課的新二代我們有40萬人但是就學了29萬多所以我們也希望說透過這個平台讓他有更多不同的頻道來去學習所以我們希望說透過這個頻道增加一些元素就會減少我們的新二代在學校的霸凌"},{"start":96.372,"end":120.119,"text":"因為我們是要教小孩有時候很多新住民的媽媽不敢帶小孩到學校進入跟他們一起進入家長會所以呢也導致小孩子失去很多的信心所以我們希望說透過這樣子的多元化讓大家可以再進入這樣的元素建議兒少在全面的"},{"start":123.2,"end":123.781,"text":"主席麥玉珍"},{"start":137.174,"end":160.796,"text":"請教一下委員所說的正是我們現在希望透過公共電視來達到的目標那是特別針對兒少頻道來說公共電視目前的規劃就是會針對分領提供它不同的節目形態同時呢特別是在語言上跟族群上原上除了台灣已經原本在使用的台語、客語原住民語外還有新住民語所以包括現在"},{"start":161.417,"end":182.342,"text":"公視也有製作自製新著名語節目有65集越南語節目的這個計畫目的就是希望可以透過多元的這個節目規劃呢讓族群之間互相理解那只有互相理解才能夠學習互相尊重平等對待所以我想在兒少的頻道上我們希望小朋友從小時候就理解台灣是一個多元文化多元族群的"},{"start":182.762,"end":183.963,"text":"我們的題材是什麼我們怎麼樣真的達到這樣子的多元文化這個才是"},{"start":210.6,"end":212.442,"text":"我們希望說這樣子的一個元素剛才有聽說就是說我們有"},{"start":238.643,"end":241.585,"text":"新住民與這個部分剛才我有聽其他委員問的時候有說我們是不同的時段來去播出嘛"},{"start":255.296,"end":258.038,"text":"一方面就是說這個節目目前規劃這個帶狀是在8點多啦所以基本上應該還是在兒童可收看的範圍那第二是說其實我們也在平台上架所以它也透過可以去選擇的機制可以去看"},{"start":282.13,"end":309.633,"text":"是可以讓說不同的時段我們有選擇的那個時間嗎?我們可以選擇同樣的時段我們可以選擇就是不同的語言嗎?它在網路上架的時候就可以選擇在那個想要收看的時段收看不受限於頻道是在網路嗎?是在電視上就沒有嗎?在網路就是我們現在是沒有固定的時段固定的時段是中文嗎?"},{"start":310.974,"end":312.056,"text":"我們現在新住民語的話,我們納入幾種語言?"},{"start":325.251,"end":341.426,"text":"目前有越南語已經在製作當中其他大概會持續地進行其他語種的規劃希望就是我們以人數的掙扎幾個語言好不好不要只有越南這樣子的話我就會被其他國家搞怕你越南你叫我顧越南"},{"start":341.766,"end":361.169,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":361.249,"end":388.268,"text":"我們公視裏面現在有就是剛才講說我們有很多不同國家的頻道嘛所以這樣的話我們也可以在這邊的話可以做一點就是增加一點心啦因為我們現在少子的話要生小孩的人就不多啊今天我們就是把一些資源用在我們兒少這邊更多才是真正的我們就是要栽培我們下一代啦這個部分說希望說這個部分要"},{"start":389.048,"end":390.35,"text":"麥玉珍委員"}]}},{"id":"151759","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151759","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15f8a4814870a58c97c97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed0485f2b590f5ef7c35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:56:54 - 12:05:36","影片長度":"00:08:42","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":522,"end_time":"2024-04-25T12:05:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T11:56:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":936,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時57分）謝謝主席，有請勞動部長以及原民會。"],["主席：請許部長、原民會羅處長。"],["許部長銘春：伍委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好。其實我們今天要來討論的就業服務法上路超過30年，我們也已經有了原住民族工作權保障法，但是根據原民會所做的一個111年度的資料，原住民的就業現況其實還是低於全體國民很多，以工作收入來講，大約少了1萬元，家庭年平均收入比全體國民少了52萬，低收入戶的比率是全體國民的4倍，從事非典型工作的也比全體國民高出10%，我想這個現況其實是告訴我們，還有很多待努力的空間，為了改善就業的困境，其實我們也都多方的努力。","以就業服務法第十二條來講，這個法條已設置二十多年，它說原住民人口達二萬人以上的縣市，得設立因應原住民族特殊文化的原住民公立就業服務機構。在我質詢很多次之後，謝謝部長，您勇於任事，在2022年就正式地函文，確認發布「補助地方政府設置原住民族就業服務據點計畫」，非常感謝您！因為我們的目標就是希望能夠有一個公立的就業服務機構。從去年到今年，我看到有屏東、高雄、臺中、新北、臺北及桃園6個縣市提出，也許未來還會陸陸續續有更多的縣市提出。我在這邊要特別講一下，因為原民會的就業服務據點辦公室用的是原住民族綜合發展基金，以前雖然就服法有這麼規定，但是沒有人設立，也沒有地方政府願意，所以原民會就用原住民族綜合發展基金來扛這件事情，在各地也都設有這樣的一個就業服務員跟就服站，現在它的預算來源是公務預算，還有那一些人家繳交的代金、孳息等等來做這些事。我想先請教一下部長，未來我們的目標是要有公立的原住民就業服務機構，部長可不可以談一下這個未來我們可以怎麼做，怎麼繼續推進？"],["許部長銘春：這個我想我們都有訂要點、有補助，據點優先來推動……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我上個月有找衛福部跟原民會來召開一個會議，因為您之前在函文發布的時候，您也有提到勞動部及原民會的職責及經費來源，解決疊床架屋的問題，我們最終就是要一個公立的就業服務機構，所以這個方向我們還是要去談，那未來勞動部有什麼樣的方向？其實我上個月有找兩個部會來談過了。"],["許部長銘春：我們基本上不反對啦，我是覺得地方政府要編組織員額，他們要編……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，勞動部可不可以亟力幫忙主張？因為這是就服法裡面規定的啊！"],["許部長銘春：對、對、對，這個沒有問題，我們……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：沒有問題，好。"],["許部長銘春：我們支持啊！他們要不要設……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：勞動部你們是主管機關，要支持啊！要主動啊！"],["許部長銘春：我們是主管機關沒有錯，但是……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：現在變成立委一直質詢、一直質詢啊！"],["許部長銘春：我們也在鼓勵他們……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，OK。"],["許部長銘春：沒辦法強迫他們一定要怎麼樣，因為畢竟他們還是個……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：但是要有主張啦！就像您找到方法了嘛……"],["許部長銘春：是啊！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們就往前推進一步嘛，對不對？"],["許部長銘春：是啊！是啊！"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那請教一下原民會羅處長。"],["羅處長赫踛：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：現在原住民就業基金的支出成本降低了嘛，因為勞動部這邊也有設置這樣的機制，我們的目標也是朝向整併，未來成為公立的就服中心，可是我希望我們原住民族綜發基金應該是要讓它去做一些促進就業的事情，因為我們從剛剛第一張簡報就看到了，就業情況很糟啊！都已經民國113年了，我是說要多做一些就業促進的事情，我之前也質詢原民會，也就是我講的安心上工，讓它常設、常態化，因為部落很多青年要返鄉，那不足以支撐他們做的露營場事業，也有很多還有工作能力的部落高齡者，我更加捨不得的是很多的洗腎病患，他們根本沒有辦法出去找到工作，但是他們還有工作能力，我不曉得這個安心就業計畫現在做得怎麼樣？"],["羅處長赫踛：跟委員報告，目前我們是加強宣導，就有關勞動部的疫後改善缺工擴大……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：不要講疫後改善啦！我說常設啦！"],["羅處長赫踛：對，會協助族人申請，但是本會也會有一個就業獎勵的措施，擴大原住民勞工獎勵，最高有1萬元，其他的我們會按照委員的指示來做努力。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，希望早一點啦！我還是要個報告好了，好不好？"],["羅處長赫踛：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：1個月，好好的研擬。","主席，我再問一個問題好嗎？今天我們談到原住民工作權保障法，關於它的修法重點，你們說是擴大進用範圍，你們也預估會增加1萬3,796個工作機會，但是我知道這是公部門嘛，你們要擴大招考，我也都沒有意見，能不能補得滿，至少就是開了很大的工作職缺；我現在比較關心的是私部門，我們看到原住民工作權保障法有提到公共工程及政府採購的保障，但是我要說，看得到吃不到啦！我光是提一個你應該就知道了，雖然原住民工作權保障法第十一條這麼說，可是我們來看一下原民會，我看到這幾年工程會的統計資料，哇！逐年下降耶！原住民承攬到的案件越來越沒有耶！然後跟其他的相比，可能你們會說履約地點要在原鄉，可是臺北市沒有原鄉啊！但他還是可以去做的原因是他的履約地點會放在原鄉，例如到花蓮去郊遊，這樣瞭解嗎？我覺得原民會作為一個原住民族事務的主管機關，結果比沒有原鄉的臺北市、比一般縣市做的成績還要低的時候，那就很不應該了。","我們來看一下這個「提升原住民族文化敏感重視度圖卡規劃設計勞務採購案」，偏偏履約地點寫新北市，而且還寫非原民地區，你叫原住民廠商、你叫這些個人要怎麼得標啊？你看另外一個最近辦的TULU，它的預算金額是27,770,000元，超過150萬，那你怎麼讓原住民廠商參與？這種事情多麼可惜，這個原住民來做，跟一般廠商做的絕對是不一樣。我在這邊只是要提醒，希望我們原民會要想方設法，原住民的人也是一個產業，廠商的培育也是一個產業，如果我們不能夠帶頭，那怎麼有辦法讓我們的就業率和年平均所得提高？我也希望原民會針對這個部分在1個月內給我提出一個報告。","最後提醒，這次災後有很多災民都失業了，勞動部有開兩千個，原民會好像沒有明確的數字，我希望不要設限，核實的提供這些機會，很多人在飯店工作的都沒工作了，只要他們來登記需要工作，他們確實是災民，我希望勞動部、原民會都不要限額，可以嗎？"],["許部長銘春：好，沒問題。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，沒問題喔！好，謝謝。"],["羅處長赫踛：本會也有名額大概100……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝，謝謝部長、謝謝處長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員。在這邊作宣告，中午不休息，質詢到登記委員發言結束再散會。","現在請牛煦庭委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.51409375,"end":17.024093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.37846875,"end":18.239093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.16721875,"end":20.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.25534375,"end":24.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.92159375,"end":31.097843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.75596875,"end":47.618468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.88846875,"end":51.516593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.97221875,"end":56.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.56221875000001,"end":60.03846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.494093750000005,"end":64.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.40471875,"end":79.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.90034375,"end":93.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.10909375,"end":99.40784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.59346875,"end":173.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.29909375,"end":176.10471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.52659375000002,"end":179.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.45409375,"end":183.19221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":183.66471875000002,"end":187.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.11596875,"end":185.82471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.02284375000002,"end":209.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.42846875,"end":217.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.02221875,"end":218.24159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.83221875,"end":227.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.71284375000002,"end":227.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.25284375,"end":231.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.19784375,"end":228.70409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.85971875,"end":237.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.87596875000003,"end":238.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.18784375,"end":262.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.25534375,"end":241.37721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.88346875000002,"end":242.20409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":243.33471875,"end":246.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":251.41784375,"end":251.89034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.10096875000002,"end":254.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":255.61971875,"end":256.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.15534375000004,"end":257.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.17221875,"end":257.50971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.50971875,"end":257.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.74159375,"end":259.39971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.63971875000004,"end":262.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.29784375,"end":300.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.28784375000004,"end":302.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.75159375000004,"end":305.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.72159375,"end":326.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.98409375,"end":345.66471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.16034375000004,"end":335.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.11346875000004,"end":336.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":345.58034375,"end":396.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.50909375000003,"end":490.94159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":490.95846875,"end":496.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.39221875000004,"end":516.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":516.9797187500001,"end":521.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":518.22846875,"end":518.2453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":518.2453437500001,"end":519.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":522.12659375,"end":522.3797187499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.913,"end":19.777,"text":"謝謝主席。有請勞動部長以及原民會。請許部長。請原民會羅處長。"},{"start":22.479,"end":50.833,"text":"委員好部長好部長其實我們今天來討論就業服務法上路超過三十年我們也已經有了原住民的工作權保障法但是呢根據我們原民會所做的一個資料111年度的資料原住民的就業現況其實還是低於全體國民很多以工作收入來講大約少了一萬元"},{"start":52.054,"end":78.288,"text":"家庭年平均比全體國民少了52萬低收入戶的比率全體國民的4倍從事非典型工作的也比全體國民高出10%我想這個現況其實是告訴我們還有很多帶努力的空間為了這種改善就業的困境其實我們也都多方的努力以這個就業服務法第12條來講"},{"start":79.969,"end":98.515,"text":"他設置這個法條二十多年他說原住民人口達兩萬人以上的縣市得設立因應原住民族特殊文化的原住民公立就業服務機構那我也質詢很多次之後謝謝部長您勇於認識"},{"start":99.795,"end":124.952,"text":"您在2022年就正式的函文說確認發布補助地方政府設置原住民族就業服務據點計畫那非常感謝您因為我們的目標就是希望能夠有一個公立的就業服務機構那目前從去年到今年我看到也有屏東、高雄、台中、新北、台北、桃園6個縣市提出那也許未來還會陸陸續續有更多的縣市提出"},{"start":130.095,"end":157.447,"text":"我在這邊就是要特別的來講一下因為這個原民會的就業服務據點辦公室他用的是原住民的綜合發展基金因為以前雖然救福法有這麼規定但是沒有人設立嘛沒有地方政府願意嘛所以呢原民會也就用原住民綜合發展基金來扛這件事情在各地也都設有這樣的一個救福員跟救福站"},{"start":158.027,"end":178.086,"text":"那現在他的預算來源是公務預算還有那一些人家繳交的貸金、支息等等來做這些事那我想先請教一下我們的部長就是未來我們的目標是要有公立的原住民就業服務機構部長您可不可以談一下這個未來我們可以繼續怎麼做繼續推進"},{"start":182.202,"end":209.62,"text":"這個我想我們都有定要點嘛有補助啊據點他們據點優先來推動我上個月有找衛福部跟園民會來召開一個會議嘛因為您之前在韓文發布的時候您也有提到勞動部及園民會的職責及經費來源解決疊床架屋的問題嘛它最終就是我們要一個公立的就業服務機構所以這個方向"},{"start":210.521,"end":216.015,"text":"我們還是要去談那未來勞動部有什麼樣的方向其實我上個月有找兩個部會來談過"},{"start":218.891,"end":244.078,"text":"我們基本上不反對啦。我是覺得地方政府要組織員的,他要編啦。是。那勞動部可不可以極力幫忙主張啊?因為這是救福法裡面規定的啊。對對對。這個沒有問題啊。沒有問題齁。好。我們支持啊。好。那原民會。對。對。勞動部你們是主管機關啊。要支持啊。要主動啊。現在變成立委一直質詢一直質詢啊。"},{"start":248.819,"end":260.715,"text":"我們也在鼓勵他們啦,沒辦法強迫說你一定要怎麼樣,因為畢竟他還是...但是要有主張啦,就像你們找到方法了嘛,我們就往前推進一步嘛,對不對?好,那請教一下園民會羅處長,那現在..."},{"start":264.119,"end":280.46,"text":"原住民就業基金它的支出成本就降低了嘛因為勞動部這邊也有設置這樣的那我們也朝向目標是整病未來成為公立的救福中心可是我希望的就是我們原住民族重發基金啊"},{"start":281.681,"end":304.676,"text":"應該是要讓他去做一些促進就業的事情因為我們剛剛第一章就看了啊就就業情況很糟啊都已經民國113年了啊那我是說要多做一些就業促進的事情我之前也質詢在原民會就是我講的安心上工讓他常設常態化因為部落很多青年要返鄉"},{"start":305.757,"end":326.163,"text":"他不足以支撐他做的這些什麼露營場事業那也有很多部落的高齡還有工作能力的我更更加捨不得的是那些很多洗腎的病患他根本沒有辦法出去找到工作但是他還有工作能力那我不曉得這個安心就業計畫現在做的怎麼樣"},{"start":328.531,"end":335.345,"text":"目前我們是加強那個宣導就有關勞動部的義後改善缺工不要講義後改善啦,我說長壽啦但是本會呢也會有一個"},{"start":338.939,"end":340.08,"text":"今天我們談到原住民工作權保障法"},{"start":357.492,"end":375.899,"text":"他的修法重點你們說是擴大禁用範圍你們也預估會增加13796個工作機會但是我知道的是這是公部門嘛那你是要擴大招考我也都沒有意見齁能不能補得滿至少他就是開了很大的工作職缺我現在比較關心的是私部門的"},{"start":376.719,"end":395.917,"text":"那在這邊我們看到原住民工作權保障法有提到公共工程及政府採購的保障但是我要說看得到吃不到啦我光是提一個你應該就知道了雖然原住民工作保障法第11條這麼說可是我們來看一下原民會這幾年工程會的統計資料我看到哇"},{"start":396.598,"end":400.479,"text":"但是他還是可以去做的原因是因為他的履約地點他會放在原鄉例如去郊遊到花蓮這樣了解嗎"},{"start":423.587,"end":442.119,"text":"那我覺得原民會作為一個原住民族事務的主管機關結果呢比沒有原鄉的台北市比一般的縣市做的成績還要低的時候那個就很不應該了那我們來看一下你看這個有一個是什麼圖卡提升原住民文化敏感度的圖卡規劃設計勞務採購案"},{"start":444.841,"end":457.607,"text":"偏偏履歷地點寫新北市而且還寫非原民地區你叫原住民廠商你叫這些個人要怎麼去得標啊你看另外一個最近辦的這個督魯他的預算原額是27777萬"},{"start":460.828,"end":475.732,"text":"超過150萬公告那你怎麼讓原住民廠商參與這種事情多麼可惜這個原住民來做跟一般廠商做絕對是不一樣我在這邊只是要提醒希望我們原民會要想方設法"},{"start":476.132,"end":497.613,"text":"原住民的人也是一個產業。廠商的培育也是一個產業。如果我們不能夠帶頭,我們怎麼有辦法讓我們的就業率、讓我們的年平均所得提高。原民會這個部分也希望給我一個月內提出一個報告。那這個部分最後就是提醒這一次的災後很多災民都失業了。那勞動部有開兩千個了。"},{"start":500.336,"end":516.361,"text":"人民會好像沒有明確的數字但是我就是希望不要設限何時的提供這些像很多人在飯店工作都沒工作只要他來登記需要工作確實是瞻面我希望勞動部、人民會都不要限額可以嗎好沒問題謝謝部長、謝謝處長、謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"151758","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151758","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce156c66fad7ef77a142e44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed013aef6d08d5d55f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:51:51 - 12:04:55","影片長度":"00:13:04","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-17"},"duration":784,"end_time":"2024-04-25T12:04:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T11:51:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":616,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時52分）主席、在場委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。在本席就今天的討論法案進行發言之前，我先做一個說明，因為身為會議的主席、輪值召委，我們經常遇到散會的情況，藉此也跟委員會做個說明。一般根據立法院的議事規則第二十五條、第二十六條、第二十七條，第二十五條主席可以決定休息的時間，在討論進行過程當中隨時可以宣告。但是第二十六條議案議畢，如果今天的議案已經討論完畢了，當然就是自然散會，或者說散會時間已屆、五點半已經到了，那也自然散會。除非有一種情況，散會時間已到但是討論還想繼續進行，那麼就會提出一個延長時間，根據第二十七條提出一個動議、延長開會時間。但是也有可能雖然散會時間還沒到、議案也還沒討論完畢，但是在場的多數不想要討論，他就可以根據第二十六條第二項提出一個散會動議，散會動議一經提出，不需討論，直接表決。","因此說明了為什麼上週四本席輪值召委的時候，明明在場的多數委員想要散會，但是他們卻在2點39分提交散會動議的同時、本席宣告休息的時候他們不願意離開，他們在現場等待的目的不是為了要開會，是為了要散會；他們在現場等候要表決的目的，是不讓別人繼續開會討論！這一點，作為一個會議的主席，我必須說明，當本席在上週四下午5點25分，散會時間將屆滿的時候，那時候在場的民進黨委員提出延長時間，至當日晚上12點，讓大家想開會、想討論的充分討論。","但是無奈，根據議事規則，我們必須先處理當時多數國民黨所提出來的散會動議，於是國民黨的多數委員從下午2點40分，等到5點半，其實5點半時間到了，他們不用提散會動議也散會了啦！再三證明，他們趕在時間屆滿前提出散會動議，就是不要讓我們討論議案，就這樣而已！很可惜的，目前國民黨在場的委員只有謝委員，謝謝捧場啦！","我繼續講一下，為什麼需要討論？照理來說今天是詢答，我應該請周秘書長來詢答，但是我就之前幾位委員的發言來進行討論。剛剛有黃國昌委員提出了為什麼我們不去處理他所提到的幾個問題？我們先看，這次在我們委員會當中，有對立法委員行為法提出修正草案，有立法院職權行使法，由各黨提出草案，台灣民眾黨只有提出職權行使法的草案，他並沒有要去修立法委員行為法，立法委員行為法主要是民進黨的委員提出來的，這裡面從第一章到第七章，對於委員個人的行為規範講得很清楚，至於職權行使法講的是立法院如何行使職權。","接下來我們往下看，剛剛黃委員說到了，他說收錢、喬事、關說司法、關說假釋等等，這些在立法委員行為法第四章遊說及政治捐獻規定得很清楚，第十六條要遵守遊說法規定啊！第十八條要遵守政治獻金的規定，條文都有寫，如果台灣民眾黨的委員認為不夠規範、不夠嚴格，請提出立法委員行為法的修法，不要對著民進黨提出的立法委員行為法說沒有修，我們看看立法委員、我們范委員提出什麼意見，立法委員行為法當中第七條是應該共同維護會議秩序，是倫理規範。而議事規則對秘密會議有所規範，目前第七條當中的行為規範，從第一款到第十款，都是立法委員個人問政，在委員會裡面、在公共場所裡面都應該要遵守的。但是在這裡面，我們范雲委員之前所提出的性騷擾，就是在議場進行議事討論的時候所發生的，難道不需要在這個倫理規範當中加以討論嗎？所以現行法不是完全無規範，我們修法就是按現行的框架走，也請台灣民眾黨包括黃總召要有所瞭解。","接下來我們來看今天的國會改革，有請周秘書長。"],["主席：秘書長請。"],["鍾委員佳濱：也請保護司的張專門委員。"],["主席：張專委。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個就是您的職權範圍內，請本於職權做回答。保護司請告訴我們周秘書長，如果有某A委員在議事過程中推擠，故用腹部頂住B委員的背部，事後又表示「我又不是餓死鬼」、「用肚子又不會懷孕，不算性騷擾」，請問這個構不構成性騷擾？請說明。"],["張專門委員靜倫：我們性騷擾是有定義啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，有定義。"],["張專門委員靜倫：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那這個有沒有接近性騷擾的定義？需要再判斷一下？"],["張專門委員靜倫：我們原則上經過申訴之後會有……"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，如果有申訴，你們會處理？"],["張專門委員靜倫：是，再來……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這個案子已經判確定啦！你不用那麼擔心，已經判確定就是性騷擾。","案例二，有C立委跟記者下班後聚餐，然後突然對記者抱頭強吻，如果發生這種情況，算不算性騷擾？算不算？因為我沒有具名喔！是假設狀況，這樣算不算？"],["張專門委員靜倫：我們性騷擾法是規定，如果不及抗拒而有這些行為的話……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不及抗拒？好，謝謝請回。","秘書長，如果是案例一、案例二，適用哪個法律？適用性別平等工作法還是適用性騷擾防治法？你判斷一下，我特別請專門委員回去就判斷……看你瞭不瞭解。"],["周秘書長萬來：應該是照性騷擾防治法來處理吧？"],["鍾委員佳濱：為什麼不是用性別平等工作法？因為立法委員不是立法院僱用的員工啊！性別平等工作法只保障工作職場上受僱者，軍公教人員不包含立法委員，所以只能用性騷擾防治法，由主管機關即臺北市政府就位於臺北市轄區所在的立法院內的性騷擾行為進行防治，是不是這樣？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為范委員在性別平等裡面有特別希望把立法委員也規範在內。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以我們就是今天提案嘛！立法院內的申訴處處受限，立法委員成為加害人的時候，很難透過現有的程序處理，難道立法委員不需要自律嗎？所以我們定在立法委員行為法。","這裡面就是這樣，從第一款到第十款，沒有一條是有包括性騷擾的行為，所以秘書長，如果我們加入性騷擾的倫理規範，你支不支持？"],["周秘書長萬來：我不反對啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：不反對？你是不反對而已啦！相對的不像專門委員那麼的支持。","案例三，洩漏秘密會議內容的責任，有某個D立委在院內的秘密會拒簽切結書，涉嫌為謀利而洩漏軍事秘密給境外的軍火商，請問你認為D立委的行為可能構成什麼犯罪？你能回答嗎？很困難，好。","其實刑法第一百零九條第一項、第二項，洩漏或交付關於中華民國國防應秘密之文書等等，這要處一年以上七年以下；如果洩漏給外國或其派遣之人，處三年以上十年以下。國家機密保護法第三十二條第一項第二項，洩漏或交付核定之國家機密者，處一年以上七年以下；交付前項之機密於大陸地區、香港、澳門、境外敵對勢力者，處三年以上十年以下。秘書長，你有沒有覺得很嚴重？是不是很嚴重的罪行？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為現在的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我問你嚴不嚴重嘛？這個嚴不嚴重？三年以上十年以下，嚴不嚴重？"],["周秘書長萬來：一般來講，三年以上的罪行都很嚴重。"],["鍾委員佳濱：案例四，洩漏秘密會議內容的責任，假如這個D立委他並沒有當場洩漏，但於半年後他要到北京參加交流參訪，要不要申請許可？現行法要不要申請許可？"],["周秘書長萬來：現行法沒有規範。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現行法沒有規範？來，我告訴你，要的！兩岸條例第九條第三項、第四項，簡任11職等以上要內政部許可，政務人員、縣市長還有涉及國安機密人員等，要經過內政部、國安局、法務部、陸委會的審查會許可，請問立法委員有沒有在這個規範的範圍內？有沒有在這個規範的範圍內？立法院的立法委員有沒有在這個規範的範圍內？有沒有？立法院有沒有人會涉及國安機密？有沒有可能涉及國安機密？立法院裡面有沒有任何人員有可能涉及國安機密？我是問你立法院有沒有可能涉及國安機密？如果你說沒有，我問隔壁的外交與國防委員會，它每次開秘密會議是在開什麼意思的！有沒有？立法院有沒有涉及國家機密？很困難回答嗎？就是有嘛！請問你立法院過去有涉及國家機密的人員，有根據兩岸條例，立法院有去向這些單位進行報告或許可嗎？有沒有？你認為立法院要不要？有沒有限制我們立法院職權？有沒有侵害我們憲政機關的權力？你可能認為，有或沒有很簡單，不好回答嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為這個委員之間的行為上……"],["鍾委員佳濱：這不是委員之間的行為，這是立法院職權行使涉及到國防機密的問題，你身為秘書長，你不曉得要不要適用第九條？","陸委會副主委來本席召集的公聽會的時候，他說監察院也都有向陸委會提報管制人員名單，只要有公文列為機密以上的接觸人員，都要納入範圍。秘書長，監察院都有喔！監察院現在有憲法所賦予的調查權，接觸到國防機密的時候、接觸到國家機密的時候，他會列管制人員，立法院有沒有？還在問？我告訴你啦！監察院目前根據兩岸條例提報了26人、政務人員16人，就包括監察委員，依國家機密保護法的有44人。秘書長，你身為立法院秘書長，你難道認為，同樣是憲政機關、監察院要受兩岸條例第九條的規範，你立法院到目前有沒有報過？是不是0個？有沒有報過？說！有沒有報過？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為這個規範名單，大概秘書長是規範在裡面，因為……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以請你回去查，回來再跟本委員會報告，到底立法院從古到今、第九條開始以來有沒有報告？所以民意代表應受到公開檢驗，我們立法院的議事規則還有立法委員行為法應該修法，拒簽保密協議不得參加秘密會議，秘密會議人員赴中應該報備跟公開。","所以今天我們的結論就很簡單，剛剛有委員提到，當然以本席的立場，我會寫「中國」，以我們的兩岸條例，它會寫「大陸地區、港澳地區」，我們在修法的時候大家可以表達。為什麼我一直希望在場的國民黨委員等到下午恢復開會的時候請留下來一起討論，把各黨版本當中的差異說清楚、講明白，不要躲在散會動議後面，憑著人數多數的優勢，一來就要散會。我們澈底、誠懇地希望下午兩點重行開會的時候，在下午5點半會議時間未屆滿前、今天的討論事項未議畢前，請在場的委員想討論的不要提出散會動議。本席剛剛已經示範過了，議事規則第二十五條、第二十六條、第二十七條，除非是議案還沒結束前、開會時間還沒屆滿前，你不想討論請自行離開，不要提散會動議，在這裡再次做這樣的宣告。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾召委的質詢，秘書長也請回。"],["主席（鍾委員佳濱）：所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員及本會。","委員傅崐萁、吳宗憲所提書面質詢，均列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-17","speakers":["鍾佳濱","范雲","羅智強","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林思銘","吳思瑤","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員高金素梅等\n23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條\n之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案；三、繼續審查\n( 一) 民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」\n案、( 二) 委員賴瑞隆等16 人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草\n案」案；四、(一)繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審\n查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」\n案、( 四 ) 繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kaaw 等19 人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(五)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)審查\n委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133401_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.11034375,"end":9.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.56534375,"end":19.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.05721875,"end":32.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.549093750000004,"end":75.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.36096875,"end":79.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.83284375000001,"end":88.50659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.59096875,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.31596875000001,"end":96.30284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.28159375,"end":100.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.38659375,"end":104.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.01034375,"end":114.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.74721875,"end":125.76659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.17159375000001,"end":134.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.21659375000002,"end":146.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.72534375,"end":149.05409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.66159375,"end":164.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.79846875,"end":167.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.98784375000002,"end":175.59846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.80096875,"end":182.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.05721875,"end":184.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.14971875,"end":192.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.16534375,"end":200.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.82659375,"end":256.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.49284375,"end":265.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.74471875,"end":279.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.00409375000004,"end":307.03784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.79721875,"end":310.76721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":312.48846875000004,"end":313.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.01096875,"end":318.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.58471875000004,"end":318.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":318.02346875,"end":318.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.31034375,"end":318.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.98534375,"end":319.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.97659375,"end":323.49096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.16596875000005,"end":324.19971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.57096875,"end":326.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":326.96721875000003,"end":327.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.72659375,"end":331.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.97909375,"end":332.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.11409375,"end":339.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.09596875,"end":343.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.48784375,"end":345.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":347.84159375,"end":348.56721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.80346875000004,"end":351.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.11534375,"end":354.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.80721875,"end":352.27971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":356.16096875,"end":356.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.24534375,"end":357.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.88221875000005,"end":364.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.49346875000003,"end":363.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.95721875000004,"end":368.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.58096875,"end":374.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.45346875,"end":376.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.17846875000004,"end":379.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.95846875,"end":383.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.25784375,"end":385.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.28721875,"end":389.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.45534375,"end":392.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.69096875,"end":394.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.38284375,"end":394.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.45034375,"end":395.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.63596875,"end":394.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.37409375000004,"end":398.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.77034375000005,"end":402.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.29284375000003,"end":406.39784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.43159375000005,"end":407.30909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.54971875,"end":410.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.46471875000003,"end":412.60784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.59909375,"end":418.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.20596875,"end":425.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.19221875000005,"end":436.67159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.12721875000005,"end":437.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.80221875,"end":440.80596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":441.31221875000006,"end":445.63221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.54784375,"end":457.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":458.33909375,"end":466.82721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.46846875000006,"end":468.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.68346875000003,"end":474.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.56846875,"end":475.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.34471875,"end":485.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.28409375,"end":489.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":491.75159375000004,"end":492.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.58659375,"end":495.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.56534375,"end":496.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.72534375000004,"end":500.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.10471875,"end":504.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":504.13784375000006,"end":506.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.21346875000006,"end":522.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":523.51034375,"end":524.23596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.5903437500001,"end":525.2990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":525.92346875,"end":527.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.85971875,"end":528.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":528.87659375,"end":528.9778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":528.9778437500001,"end":529.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.02846875,"end":529.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":529.18034375,"end":529.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.2309687500001,"end":531.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":531.71159375,"end":533.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":534.22596875,"end":538.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":538.0903437500001,"end":539.5078437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.45284375,"end":545.5322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":545.9709687500001,"end":548.16471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":548.3503437500001,"end":549.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":550.6115937500001,"end":551.8603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":552.7040937500001,"end":553.9697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.05409375,"end":557.3953437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":558.1884687500001,"end":570.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.1484687500001,"end":571.60409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.07659375,"end":574.1184687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.5190937500001,"end":578.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.7547187499999,"end":580.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.22284375,"end":583.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.2390937499999,"end":586.5047187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":586.67346875,"end":589.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.29721875,"end":591.6684687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.44471875,"end":600.07221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.2578437500001,"end":600.8484687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":602.2153437500001,"end":604.0378437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":604.8815937500001,"end":605.97846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":606.51846875,"end":607.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":608.5434687500001,"end":614.0278437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":614.21346875,"end":617.4365937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.07784375,"end":618.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":619.9509687500001,"end":620.8959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.58784375,"end":623.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":623.4778437500001,"end":625.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":626.46471875,"end":627.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.59534375,"end":629.5190937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.0378437500001,"end":634.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.92784375,"end":640.0828437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":641.63534375,"end":645.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.63471875,"end":653.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.7009687500001,"end":655.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":657.2109687500001,"end":657.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.12221875,"end":665.8003437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":665.88471875,"end":668.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":668.55096875,"end":669.3103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":670.3059687500001,"end":670.8628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":671.1497187500001,"end":671.9934687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":672.9890937499999,"end":675.7565937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":676.12784375,"end":681.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.6922187499999,"end":683.2490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":684.3290937500001,"end":686.8772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":687.26534375,"end":692.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.83409375,"end":694.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":694.7578437500001,"end":696.1922187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":696.51284375,"end":697.2722187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":697.8290937500001,"end":698.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":698.9428437500001,"end":704.4778437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":703.3472187500001,"end":709.3884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":709.89471875,"end":711.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":712.27409375,"end":715.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":715.3959687500001,"end":717.7922187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":718.0790937500001,"end":722.0447187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":722.65221875,"end":723.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":723.95159375,"end":725.1159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":725.23409375,"end":726.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":726.44909375,"end":729.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":730.4990937500002,"end":732.4734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":732.96284375,"end":737.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":738.3459687500001,"end":740.8772187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":741.19784375,"end":743.2734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":743.62784375,"end":745.8215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":746.2434687500001,"end":748.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":748.53846875,"end":749.93909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":750.1753437500001,"end":752.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":752.6897187500001,"end":753.9384687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.17471875,"end":754.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":754.86659375,"end":755.4740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":755.9128437500001,"end":756.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":756.84096875,"end":758.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":758.6128437500001,"end":760.8572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":760.9922187500001,"end":764.2490937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":764.40096875,"end":766.7465937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":767.08409375,"end":769.4297187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":769.66596875,"end":771.0834687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":771.21846875,"end":774.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":774.54284375,"end":783.7734687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":5.217,"end":17.803,"text":"主席因為待會會超過時間要不要先處理一下會議時間好那今天主席就宣布今天的上午就會議到眾嘉賓委員質詢完我們先中午稍事休息下午兩點繼續開會謝謝"},{"start":21.789,"end":42.14,"text":"主席、在堂委員先進、列席政務機關市長、官員會長、觀眾夥伴、媒體之間的女士先生在本席就今天的討論法案進行發言之前我先做一個說明因為身為會議的主席輪值召委我們經常遇到散會的情況在這裡借此跟委員會也做個說明一般根據立法院的議事規則第25條、26條、27條、25條"},{"start":46.843,"end":68.639,"text":"主席可以決定休息的時間,在討論進行的過程當中隨時可以宣告。但是二十六條一案一閉,如果今天議案已經討論完畢了,那當然就是自然散會。或者說散會時間已屆,五點半已經到了,那也自然散會。除非有一種情況,散會時間已到,但是討論還想繼續進行,那麼就會有提出一個延長時間根據二十七條提出一個動議,延長開會時間。"},{"start":75.484,"end":95.3,"text":"但是呢有可能雖然散會時間還沒到議案也還沒討論完畢但是在場的多數不想要討論他就會根據26條第二項提出一個散會動議散會動議一經提出不需討論直接表決這也說明了在上週四為什麼本席輪值召委的時候明明在場的多數委員他們想要散會"},{"start":105.049,"end":125.157,"text":"但是他們卻在2點39分提交散會動議的同時本席宣告休息的時候他們不願意離開他們在現場等待的目的不是為了要開會是為了要散會他們在現場等會要表決的目的是不讓別人繼續開會討論這一點作為一個會議的主席我必須說明當本席在上週四下午5點25分"},{"start":136.572,"end":144.846,"text":"上會時間將屆滿的時候那時候在場的民進黨委員提出一個延長時間至當日晚上12點讓大家想開會想討論的充分討論但是無奈根據會議規則"},{"start":150.121,"end":167.572,"text":"議事規則我們必須先處理當時多數的國民黨所提出來的散會動議,於是國民黨的多數委員終於從下午的兩點四十分等到他們到五點半,其實五點半時間到了他們不用提散會動議也散會了啦。"},{"start":168.152,"end":180.655,"text":"再三的證明他們敢在時間屆滿前提出三位動議就是不要讓我們討論議案就這樣而已那很可惜的呢在場的委員目前國民黨在場委員只有我們謝委員謝謝捧場那我繼續來講一下因為為什麼需要討論本來照說今天是尋答我應該請周秘書長來就尋答但是我自己底下呢我就之前的幾位委員的發言我們來進行討論下一頁"},{"start":193.578,"end":215.49,"text":"剛剛有黃國昌委員提出了為什麼我們不去處理他所提到的幾個問題我們先看這次在我們委員會當中有立法委員行為法有提出修正草案有立法院職權行使法有各黨提出草案台灣民眾黨只有提出職權行使法的草案他並沒有要去修立法委員行為法"},{"start":216.03,"end":225.237,"text":"立法院行為法主要是民進黨委員提出來的這裡面從第一章到第七章對於委員個人的行為規範講得很清楚至於職權行事法講的是立法院如何行使職權接下來我們往下看那麼剛剛黃委員說到了他說收錢、喬事、關說司法、關說假釋等等等"},{"start":238.446,"end":251.84,"text":"這些在立法委員行為法第四章遊說及政治捐獻很清楚啊16條啊要遵守遊說法規定啊18條啊要遵守政治宣言的規定啊條文都有寫如果台灣民眾黨的委員認為不夠規範不夠嚴格請提出立法委員行為法的修法"},{"start":257.54,"end":271.128,"text":"不要對著民進黨提出的立法委員行為法提出的說沒有修到我們看看立法委員我們范委員提出什麼意見我們往下看立法院行為法當中第七條應該共同維護會議秩序這是倫理規範意識規則對秘密會議有所規範我們來看一下目前第七條當中的行為規範一款到第十款"},{"start":280.174,"end":306.848,"text":"都是立法委員個人問政在委員會裡面在公共場所裡面都應該要遵守的但是這裡面在我們之前范雲委員所提出的性騷擾就是在議場進行議事討論的時候所發生的難道不需要在這個倫理規範當中加以討論嗎好所以呢現行法不是完全無規範我們修法就是按現行的框架走也請民臺灣民眾黨包括黃總召要留守瞭解往下看"},{"start":307.85,"end":313.035,"text":"接下來我們來看今天的我們國會改革,有請周秘書長。秘書長請。好秘書長,我們往下看齁。請問一下,來。也請保護司的我們的處長是吧,專門委員,張專門委員。這個就是您的職權範圍內,請本瑜之前做回答。"},{"start":332.85,"end":354.041,"text":"請告訴我們周秘書長如果有某A委員在議事過程中推擠僱用腹部頂住B委員的背部事後又表示我又不是餓死鬼用肚子又不會懷孕說明我性騷擾請問這個夠不夠成性騷擾請說明我們性騷擾是有定義啦好有定義那這個有沒有接近性騷擾的定義需要再判斷一下"},{"start":357.932,"end":362.975,"text":"案例二 有C立委跟記者下班後聚餐,然後突然對記者抱頭強吻。如果這種情況發生,算不算新騷?算不算?"},{"start":383.001,"end":412.353,"text":"因為我沒有具名喔假設狀況算不算我們性騷擾法是規定如果不及抗拒而有這些不及抗拒好謝謝來來秘書長謝謝請回秘書長下一頁如果案例一案例二適用哪個法律適用性別平等工作法還是適用性騷擾防治法你判斷一下我特別請專門委員回去就判斷看看你的表解為什麼不適用性別平等工作法"},{"start":414.656,"end":436.335,"text":"因為立法委員不是立法院僱用的員工啊性別平等工作法只保障工作職場上受僱者軍公教人員不包含立法委員所以他只能用性騷擾防治法由主管機關臺北市政府就位於臺北市轄區所在的立法院內的性騷擾行為進行防治是不是這樣"},{"start":437.176,"end":466.654,"text":"因為換委員在姓蕾平等的裡面有特別希望把立法委員也歸換在內。好,所以我們就是今天提案吧。立法院內的申訴處處受限,立法委員成為加害人的時候,很難透過現有的程序處理。難道立法委員不需要自律嗎?所以我們定在立法委員行為法下一頁。好,這裡面就是知道第一款到第一次款,沒有一條是有爆發性騷擾的行為。所以民進黨,如果我們加入性騷擾的一個倫理規範,你支不支持?"},{"start":467.746,"end":489.515,"text":"我不反對。不反對喔。你是不反對而已啦。那相對的不像章委員那麼的一個支持。往下一頁。案例三。泄露秘密會的內容責任有某個第一立委在院內的秘密會拒簽戒協書涉嫌為謀利而泄露軍事秘密給境外的軍火商。請問你認為第一立委的行為可能構成什麼犯罪?你能回答嗎?很困難。往下一頁。"},{"start":497.799,"end":526.904,"text":"其實刑法第109條第1項、第2項、洩漏或交付關於中華民國國防因秘密之文書等等,這要處一年以上、七年以下。如果洩漏給外國或其派遣之人,三年以上、十年以下。國家精密保護法第三十二條第1項、第2項,洩漏或交付核定的國家精密一年以上、七年以下。交付前項的話,到大陸地區、香港、澳門、境外敵對勢力,三年以上、十年以下。民主黨你覺得有沒有很嚴重?是不是很嚴重的一個罪行?"},{"start":528.888,"end":557.156,"text":"我問你嚴不嚴重?這個嚴不嚴重?三年以上十年以下嚴不嚴重?當然在一般來講三年以上的罪行都很嚴重好往下一頁所以案例是洩漏秘密會的內容的責任假如這個第一立委他並沒有當場洩漏半年後他要到北京參加交流專訪要不要申請許可?現行法要不要申請許可?現行法沒有規範現行法沒有規範來我告訴你要的往下一頁看"},{"start":558.417,"end":582.893,"text":"兩案條例第九條、第三項、第四項、檢認實質等要內政務許可。政務人員、縣市省還有涉及國安機密人員要經過內政務國安會、法務部、陸委會的審查會許可。請問立法委員有沒有這個規範範圍內?有沒有規範範圍內?立法院立法委員有沒有規範範圍內?有沒有?立法院有沒有人會涉及國安機密?"},{"start":585.267,"end":607.164,"text":"有沒有可能涉及國安機密?在立法院裡面有沒有任何人員有可能涉及國安機密?我是問你嘛,有沒有可能立法院涉及國安機密?如果你說沒有,我問隔壁的外國委員會、外交官委員會,他每次看秘密會是開什麼意思的?有沒有?立法院有沒有涉及國家機密?很困難回答嗎?就是有嘛!"},{"start":608.978,"end":629.173,"text":"請問你立法院過去有涉及國家機密的人員,你有根據兩岸條例,立法院有去向這些單位進行報告或許可嗎?有沒有?你認為立法院要不要?有沒有限縮我們立法院之權?有沒有侵害我們憲政機關的權利?你可能認為有或沒有,很簡單,不好回答嗎?"},{"start":633.116,"end":654.311,"text":"這不是委員之間的行為,這是立法院職權行使涉及到國防機密問題。你身為秘書長,你不曉得要不要適用這個第九條,往下看。錄委會副主委來本席召集的公聽會的時候,他說,監察院也都有向錄委會提報管制人員名單,只要有公文列為機密以上的接觸人員,都要納入範圍。"},{"start":657.23,"end":681.198,"text":"民主黨監察院都有喔!監察院現在有憲法所賦予的調查權接觸到國防機密、接觸到國家機密他會列什麼管制人員立法院有沒有還在問我告訴你啦監察院目前根據兩條條例提報的26人政務人員16人就包括監察委員依國家機密保護法的有44人民主黨"},{"start":684.383,"end":696.832,"text":"你身為立法院秘書長你難道認為同樣的是縣政機關監察院要受兩岸條例第九條的規範你立法院到目前有沒有是不是0個有沒有報過"},{"start":698.118,"end":719.139,"text":"說有沒有報告?所以請你回去查回來再跟朋友們報告到底立法院從古到今第九條開始以來有沒有報告好所以民意代表應受到公開的檢驗我們立法院的議事規則還有立法院的行為法應該修法拒簽保密協議不得參加秘密會議秘密委員員附中應該報備跟公開往下一頁"},{"start":722.742,"end":725.528,"text":"所以今天我們的結論就很簡單剛剛有委員提到當然"},{"start":730.543,"end":751.694,"text":"以本席的立場我會寫中國那以我們兩岸條例他會寫大陸地區、港澳地區我們在修法的時候大家可以表達為什麼我一直希望在場的國民黨委員等到下午恢復開會的時候請留下來一起討論把各黨的版本當中的差異說清楚講明白不要躲在三位動議後面"},{"start":752.994,"end":768.782,"text":"憑著人數多數優勢一來就要散會我們徹底誠懇的希望下午兩點重新開會的時候在下午五點半會議時間未屆滿前今天的討論事項未一避前請在場的委員想討論的"},{"start":769.762,"end":775.831,"text":"不要提出散會動議本席剛才已經示範過了議事規則252627除非是議案還沒結束前開會時間還沒見滿前你不想討論請自行離開不要提散會動議在這裡再次做一項宣告謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151757","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151757","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15378e3f8cb313eeef20df1bb4ac2af973c68e374cd8c4bed0149fca4e7025314c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:57:17 - 12:02:03","影片長度":"00:04:46","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":286,"end_time":"2024-04-25T12:02:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T11:57:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":822,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時57分）主席、各位委員。請次長還有胡董事長。"],["主席：好，請次長跟胡董事長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：次長好、胡董事長好。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：今天的專題報告非常好，文化部還有公共電視也積極地在推動這個計畫，今天的主題是跨族群、跨平台、跨語言。目前對兒少、兒童有定義是幾歲到幾歲，是12歲，然後少年是未滿18歲。"],["王次長時思：18歲。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以都有定義，年齡層也蠻長的。這個部分在這樣的規劃裡面，對於跨族群、跨語言的部分，現在有沒有一個比較明確的規劃？"],["王次長時思：以公視目前的規劃來說，我想這個小公視……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我是說現在已經開始執行的方向。"],["王次長時思：是，因為原則上8月底就要開台，所以公視已經在積極籌備……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：開台之前就一定有很多要開始準備了。"],["王次長時思：包括徵案，包括自製，包括合製，大概都在同步進行當中，所以公視現在整個團隊在製作壓力上應該也非常龐大，因為一旦開台之後就會面臨全時段的播出時間。在跨族群這件事上，公視現有的規劃除了結合原有的台語台、客語台、原民台之外，也包括新住民的語言，所以在多族群多語的這件事情上，公視一開始的規劃就納入兒少頻道的節目企劃裡面。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以基本上，如果從剛才談的，包括服務計畫的方向，符合公共電視法的公視基金會的業務。"],["王次長時思：是，多元化。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這裡面包含多元族群之傳播服務。公共電視法第三十六條也特別明定，節目之製播，應該保持多元性，積極提供兒童、青少年這樣的部分，因為這個部分很重要。雖然我們一直在談，希望教育部多多針對類似像這樣的教育，當然教育部也在推動，但還是有限，因為現在孩子都是看手機，每次看都是看手機了，所以這個部分怎麼去結合？他很少坐在那邊去看電視了啦。"],["王次長時思：對，收視的習慣完全改變，兒童看手機跟看這些平台上的節目變成越來越多。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，所以這樣的節目推出，然後再結合現在孩子的習慣、青少年的習慣。就原住民族的立場來講，我們很希望因為這樣的推動可以達到族群的和諧、族群的互相尊重，減少族群的歧視。"],["王次長時思：是，我們也非常希望可以做到。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為最近都還是有族群歧視的現象，像高中、大學，連東華大學都有，東華大學最近就有族群的歧視，這就是對文化的不瞭解，就會產生這樣的歧視，所以這是一個需要加強積極推動的部分。對你們的辛苦特別來這邊鼓勵大家。"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員，我想製作優質的多語多族群的多元文化節目，的確是公視兒少平台成立的主要宗旨，謝謝委員。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，繼續加油，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員。","接下來請麥玉珍委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","葉元之","陳培瑜","何欣純","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","范雲","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","林月琴","陳冠廷","羅智強"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫─ 公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.535343750000003,"end":15.353468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.14659375,"end":17.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.12534375,"end":19.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.985343750000002,"end":23.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.980968750000002,"end":23.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.90471875,"end":28.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.54971875,"end":35.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.29534375,"end":37.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.16846875,"end":39.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.43409375,"end":40.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.784093750000004,"end":41.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.89784375,"end":42.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.84284375,"end":44.024093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.188468750000006,"end":46.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.196593750000005,"end":51.634718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.259093750000005,"end":53.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.33471875,"end":57.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.19096875,"end":56.76471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.119093750000005,"end":59.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.835968750000006,"end":61.962218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.09284375000001,"end":64.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.89846875,"end":66.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.24409375,"end":68.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.04971875000001,"end":72.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.64409375000001,"end":73.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.68596875,"end":75.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.96409375,"end":77.68971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.28034375,"end":80.45721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.00971875,"end":83.41034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.04346875,"end":86.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.36346875000001,"end":92.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.65409375,"end":90.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.94909375,"end":95.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.07534375,"end":118.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.61159375000001,"end":121.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.83471875000001,"end":125.73284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.94784375,"end":136.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.14034375,"end":140.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.85284375,"end":146.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.86971875,"end":142.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.38784375,"end":149.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.88096875000002,"end":154.16721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.43721875,"end":161.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.52471875,"end":166.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.38034375,"end":170.23221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.99159375000002,"end":171.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.02096875,"end":173.40471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.97846875000002,"end":175.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.59409375,"end":177.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.84284375000001,"end":179.42909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.12096875,"end":182.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.82096875000002,"end":183.15846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.42846875,"end":185.68971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.65159375000002,"end":193.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.65471875,"end":194.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.73034375,"end":197.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.73846875,"end":199.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.30346875,"end":202.14284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.80096875,"end":206.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.12534375,"end":212.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.65596875,"end":213.97221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.34346875,"end":217.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.29659375000003,"end":219.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.54096875000002,"end":220.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.75159375,"end":223.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.38409375,"end":229.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.69971875000002,"end":230.79659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.96534375000002,"end":232.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.10409375,"end":235.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.90971875000002,"end":238.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.69409375,"end":239.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.26346875000002,"end":242.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.22096875000003,"end":247.36784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.78971875000002,"end":249.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.39284375000003,"end":251.06346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.70471875,"end":253.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.52284375000002,"end":255.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.54784375,"end":259.43346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.07471875000005,"end":262.08284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.79159375,"end":276.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.72221875,"end":283.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.94034375,"end":284.93159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.791,"end":41.325,"text":"各位委員請次長還有胡董事長好請次長跟胡董事長次長好胡董事長好這個今天的專題報告非常好這個文化部還有公務電視也積極的在推動這個計畫所以這裡面今天跨族群、跨平台、跨語言"},{"start":43.398,"end":55.346,"text":"當然這個兒少目前對兒少的定義兒童有定義幾歲到幾歲12歲然後少年到未滿18歲18歲所以都有這個所以是這個年齡層也蠻長的所以這個部分在這樣的一個規劃裡面"},{"start":67.298,"end":67.698,"text":"以公視目前的規劃來說,我想"},{"start":82.031,"end":82.812,"text":"公視現在整個團隊在製作壓力上應該也非常的龐大"},{"start":102.731,"end":122.343,"text":"因為一旦開台之後就會面臨全時段的播出的時間那在跨族群的這件事上我想公視現有的規劃裡面除了結合原有的台語台、客語台、原名台之外也包括新住民的語言所以在多族群的多語的這件事上公視在一開始的規劃裡就納入整個在兒少頻道的這個服務的節目計畫裡面"},{"start":126.994,"end":146.618,"text":"所以基本上如果從剛才談的包括我們的服務計畫的一個方向是符合公共電視法的整個公視基金會的業務這裡面包含了多元族群的傳播服務"},{"start":149.963,"end":176.681,"text":"然後這個公共電視法第36條也特別明定節目自播應該遵守這個保持多元性這個積極提供兒童青少年這樣的一個部分因為這個部分很重要雖然我們一直在談教育部希望能夠去多"},{"start":177.901,"end":180.882,"text":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw"},{"start":203.101,"end":206.685,"text":"對,所以這個部分這樣的一個節目的推出然後再結合現在孩子的習慣"},{"start":225.728,"end":250.744,"text":"我們很希望的旧原住民者的立場來講我們很希望就是說因為這樣的推動族群的和諧族群的這個互相尊重就減少族群的歧視是我們也非常希望可以做到因為最近都還是有族群的歧視像這個高中大學"},{"start":252.496,"end":261.91,"text":"連東華大學都有啊東華大學最近呢只有族群的歧視這個就是對文化的不了解嘛"},{"start":262.847,"end":267.388,"text":"謝謝委員 我想製作優質的多語多族群的多元文化的節目 的確是公視兒少平台成立的主要宗旨 謝謝委員繼續加油 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151756","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151756","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15631878ea8e28b4b820df1bb4ac2af973c68e374cd8c4bed0704f2c54beaedf775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"11:50:21 - 11:57:08","影片長度":"00:06:47","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":407,"end_time":"2024-04-25T11:57:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T11:50:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":787,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（11時50分）謝謝主席，林召委，請次長。"],["主席：請王次長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：王次長你好。其實我剛剛聽到陳培瑜委員的質詢，我關心的跟他也很類似，第一個，我當然非常支持，也非常高興小公視這個兒少頻道要開臺、要開始，但是關鍵是什麼？錢、人，還有製作的團隊夠專業，我肯定，但是內容呢？我相信我們之前一直在關心臺灣的影視音產業，最重要是在於內容，我們的製作人才很專業的也有，但是能不能留住？這是一個議題。第二個議題是在於剛剛陳委員跟我一樣很關心的，留住人才、培育人才、經驗及專業的傳承，尤其我們現在鎖定的是兒少，兒少相關專業領域的人如何留住、如何培育？這會牽涉到我們剛剛講的內容，內容產業產業鏈的建立如何讓兒少頻道可以成功？我覺得這是很關鍵的一件事情，次長，你有沒有想到這件事？"],["王次長時思：委員說的沒有錯，所以第一個就是說，現在臺灣製作兒少影視音節目最主要的團隊大概都在公視，不管就品質上、內容上、技術上，大概都是以整體的公視集團，包括客語臺、臺語臺、原住民臺等，做為最主要的團隊，所以由他們的技術跟方式來擴散是我們現在的第一個基礎。第二個……"],["何委員欣純：所以你現在意思是說，公廣集團下面的整個專業團隊能夠互相支援、互相合作嗎？"],["王次長時思：不是，是跟民間合作。我說的擴散指的是第二個，就是跟民間，不管是在資金面，還是在產製面展開合作，這是第二件事情，一定要透過民間力量的引進，所以在公視裡面，包括現在我們希望公視跟民間合資、合製的標準也都已經放寬，這是第二件事。第三個就是在開發端，在開發端這一件事上，我們希望跟臺灣的IP合作，要發展成臺灣兒少的影視音節目，其實需要我們有自己的IP……"],["何委員欣純：沒錯。"],["王次長時思：臺灣民間有IP，但是IP見得會成為動畫、戲劇等等的節目，所以在臺灣自己原生IP上的合作會是第三個面向。第四個面向當然就是所謂的人才孵育，我們希望透過共製的方式來同步進行人才孵育。我剛才一開始有說到，公視現在有點先天不良，它一開始整個製作環境上面可以投注在兒少的資源就非常少，現在即使有了6億，其實6億也不算是一個足夠的數字。"],["何委員欣純：不算多。"],["王次長時思：所以它必須在產製、孵育、開發同步前進，它沒有辦法像其他比較完整的國家的公共電視，有比較龐大的資金可以支持。"],["何委員欣純：我以前就關心過這個議題……"],["王次長時思：所以它大概是……"],["何委員欣純：不管是英國的BBC，或者是其他國家的公視集團……"],["王次長時思：是，委員應該非常瞭解。"],["何委員欣純：臺灣的公視規模算是相對小，謝謝各位委員的支持，我們之前也修法讓公廣集團……"],["王次長時思：解除了9億的限制。"],["何委員欣純：沒錯，讓它可以有更多無限的可能，我也希望以這個為利基，現在看到兒少的小公視要開臺、要開頻道，我們擔心的是資源不夠多。你剛才提到要跟民間合作，跟民間合作邁向國際，我相信這也不是只有我們臺灣自有的IP或者是頻道平臺合作，還必須要邁向國際。"],["王次長時思：是。"],["何委員欣純：因為我們現在的孩子，坦白說能夠接受到的資訊非常多元，而且接收的管道也非常非常的多，幾乎人手一機，如何能夠讓孩子在他們生活當中接觸到公視所謂的小公視兒少頻道，而且進一步能夠吸引他們來閱聽、收視，那個才是重點，是不是？"],["王次長時思：是，因為公視今年是第一年，非常謝謝大院的支持，修法使得預算可以提高上限，我希望可以給公視機會，讓他們一步一步來，從這個起步開始，能夠累積越來越多臺灣的兒少節目內容。"],["何委員欣純：對，我們更進一步是期許什麼？因為在你的報告第10頁有提到，我剛剛一開始講到內容產業，有關這個部分，你們說節目的內容希望跟教育服務結合，跟教育服務結合可以提供各級學校的教師，他可能可以把多元的兒少節目轉為豐富的影音素材，可以發展成教案。"],["王次長時思：對，現在公視有在提供教案。"],["何委員欣純：現在公視有在提供嘛，對不對？"],["王次長時思：是。"],["何委員欣純：我們希望它更多元，因為臺灣的語言文化很多樣化……"],["王次長時思：非常多元。"],["何委員欣純：很多元，有多元性，再來是國際化，再來我們更進一步必須要宣導孩子如何自我保護，因為最近發生了很多兒少案件，孩子自身能不能感知到必須用什麼樣的方式來保護自己，或者是什麼樣的東西是應該拒絕的，我覺得這就是在我們兒少節目的內容產業裡面如何去跟教育服務結合，這個自我保護的觀念不是只有學校老師要教而已，而是在生活當中，在他所接觸到的部分，包括從這個節目內容裡面，他能夠深化、內化成他自己的觀念，我覺得這個也是我們該做的。"],["王次長時思：這些就是兒少影視內容節目的主要目標。"],["何委員欣純：對，所以再回到我剛剛一開始講的，我們如何讓內容產業能夠更細緻化、更專業化、更生活化？後面就必須要有更多的人、事、物、財力來投資、投入，結合更多民間資源，共同讓這個頻道可以成功，讓它未來能夠有無限的可能性，並且更加國際化，好不好？"],["王次長時思：是，我想公視會在今年開始的這個基礎上一步一步往前進步。"],["何委員欣純：好，那我們一起努力，謝謝。"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝何欣純委員。","接下來請鄭天財委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","葉元之","陳培瑜","何欣純","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","范雲","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","林月琴","陳冠廷","羅智強"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫─ 公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":5.2115937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.8109687500000002,"end":4.2497187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.62034375,"end":27.874718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.12784375,"end":28.785968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.87034375,"end":29.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.91659375,"end":33.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.56159375,"end":36.227843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.02096875,"end":85.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.89096875,"end":111.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.41471875,"end":117.36284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.36284375000001,"end":117.86909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.43034375,"end":117.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.46409375,"end":117.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.97034375000001,"end":190.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.42971875,"end":175.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.12971875000002,"end":179.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.56409375,"end":179.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.84096875,"end":264.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.25409375,"end":193.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.24534375000002,"end":194.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.57846875,"end":197.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.58596875,"end":201.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.12909375,"end":210.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.73159375,"end":215.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.68159375,"end":279.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.33971875000003,"end":265.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.34596875,"end":381.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.22846875000005,"end":302.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.56159375000004,"end":304.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.01284375,"end":306.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.07096875,"end":312.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.84471875,"end":394.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.51784375,"end":400.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.61909375000005,"end":395.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.46659375,"end":398.65221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.51221875000005,"end":407.20784375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.95,"end":5.092,"text":"謝謝主席林昭偉我們請次長對不對好對請王次長委員好王次長你好其實我剛剛聽到陳培鈺委員的質詢我關心的跟他也很很很很類似第一個我當然非常支持也非常高興我們這個小公視這個兒少頻道要開台要開始那但是關鍵是什麼錢人還有"},{"start":29.987,"end":45.398,"text":"我相信我們之前一直在關心台灣的這個影視音產業最重要是在於內容我們的製作的人才"},{"start":46.398,"end":46.438,"text":"主席"},{"start":64.071,"end":64.692,"text":"市長有沒有想到這一件事?"},{"start":86.073,"end":103.404,"text":"委員說的沒有錯所以第一個就是說公視現在大概是擁有台灣製作兒少影視節目最主要的團隊大家都在公視不管就品質上、內容上、技術上大概都是以公視這個整體的公視集團包括跨語台、台語台、原住民台等是最主要的"},{"start":104.984,"end":130.978,"text":"所以由他們的這個技術跟方式來做擴散是我們現在第一個基礎所以你現在意思是說我們把公管集團下面這個整個專業的這個團隊能夠呢互相支援互相合作嗎?不是,是跟民間合作我說的擴散指的是第二個就是說跟民間不管是在資金面還是在產製面展開合作這是第二件事情所以他一定要透過民間的力量的引進所以在公視裡面包括現在我們"},{"start":132.039,"end":151.203,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":151.203,"end":179.974,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":180.114,"end":184.238,"text":"我以前就關心過這個議題啊不管是英國的BBC或者是我們其他國家的公視集團台灣的公視算是規模相對的小"},{"start":202.853,"end":210.74,"text":"那而且呢也謝謝我們各位委員的支持我們之前修法讓公視公管集團解除了9億的限制沒錯沒錯讓他可以有更多無限的可能那我也希望以這個為利機那現在看到這個兒少的小公司要開台要開頻道"},{"start":220.848,"end":247.483,"text":"我們擔心是什麼資源不夠多那你剛才提到說要跟民間合作那跟民間的合作那邁向國際我相信這也不是只有我們自己台灣自由的IP或者是頻道平台合作還必須要是要邁向國際因為我們現在的孩子坦白說能夠接收到的資訊非常的多元而且接收的管道也非常非常的多那幾乎人手一雞"},{"start":248.263,"end":256.374,"text":"那如何的能夠讓孩子在他們生活當中可以接觸到我們公視的這一個所謂的小公視兒少頻道而且進一步的能夠吸引到他們來閱聽來收視那個才是重點啊"},{"start":264.645,"end":279.053,"text":"是,因為公視今年是第一年我想非常謝謝大院的支持做了修法的這個使得預算可以提高上限那我希望可以給公視機會讓他們一步一步來從這個起步開始能夠累積越來越多的台灣的兒少節目的內容"},{"start":279.893,"end":281.734,"text":"您提到內容產業,節目內容希望跟教育服務結合,提供各級學校教師,多元兒少節目轉為豐富影音素材,可以發展成教案"},{"start":303.768,"end":328.142,"text":"現在公視有在提供嘛,對不對?那我們希望它更多元性,因為台灣的這個語言文化很多樣化,很多元,那這個多元性再來的國際化,再來呢我們更進一步的在這個所謂的一些必須要宣導孩子如何自我保護,因為呢最近發生了很多兒少案件,那孩子自身能不能"},{"start":328.962,"end":357.468,"text":"感知到說我必須用什麼樣的方式來保護自己或者是什麼樣的東西是我應該拒絕的我覺得這個就是在我們的兒少節目的內容產業裡面如何去跟我們的教育服務作為結合讓孩子在生活當中這個自我保護的觀念不是只有學校老師改改而已而是在生活當中在他所接觸到的這些包括我們的這個節目內容裡面他可以"},{"start":358.928,"end":380.99,"text":"他可以能夠深化、內化成他自己的觀念我覺得這個也是我們必須該做的這些就是兒少影星內容節目的主要目標對,所以我再回到我剛剛一開始講的我們的內容產業我們如何能夠讓它更細緻化、更專業化、更生活化那這個後面就必須要有更多的人"},{"start":382.031,"end":383.512,"text":"謝謝何欣純委員我們再來請"}]}},{"id":"151755","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151755","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15b857299cde551670c97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed045097f08a7822b4c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:43:51 - 11:55:27","影片長度":"00:11:36","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":696,"end_time":"2024-04-25T11:55:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T11:43:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":829,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（11時43分）主席謝謝，麻煩請許部長。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：洪委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長好。部長即將卸任了，媒體早上也有請教你，你也講說新接任的勞動部長可能會面臨到兩大問題，缺工跟保險部分，是不是？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我講大白話啦！本席之前也講過，在委員會裡面跟你有好幾次的質詢，也講到至少我覺得你算是一個可以溝通的人，既然可以溝通，在你卸任之前我想要確認一下，既然你也提到缺工，本席特別去找了一下缺工這個議題從什麼時候開始，媒體報導是3年前就開始了，2021年就可以找到有工廠無人做的相關報導，我們也聽到很多產業界給我們的問題，包括醫院開不出床，不是沒有病床，是沒有護理人員；餐廳沒有包廂，不是沒有包廂，是沒有服務人員；飯店沒有房間，並不是因為沒有房間，而是因為沒有房務人員。所以到底現在我們臺灣面臨到的問題，3年過去了，我們現在缺工的總數有沒有統計？我們到底缺多少工？"],["許部長銘春：大概二十三、四萬左右啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：二十三、四萬？"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們過去這3年的努力，到底是缺工人數越來越多，還是有減少？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：目前看起來好像還是沒有。"],["許部長銘春：這是整個人口結構的問題，其實現在也不是只有臺灣，全世界先進國家都面臨同樣的問題，但我的意思是，我們面臨人口結構還是要想方法，像過去我們一直認為這些壯世代的勞參率其實比起韓日是低的，我們現在怎麼樣來……"],["洪委員孟楷：也想要延長退休年齡嘛！"],["許部長銘春：不是延長退休年齡，不需要延長，我跟委員報告，他是早退，我們發現55歲退出職場的非常多，我國在55歲之前的勞參率跟韓日差不多，55歲以後的差了20%，我就一直在想怎麼把這20%的人力開發個一半就好了，還有我們的婦女再就業，很多婦女因為家庭照顧或因為生育而離開職場，當他們可以回來的時候，或者我們有怎麼樣的友善環境來引導他們回來，讓我們國內的人力缺口藉由現在這些壯世代或者再就業婦女能夠去做一些填補，因為我們不能什麼都仰賴移工，我覺得還是要以本國為主，如果我們本國人的就業可以來開發這些人力的話，我是覺得應該先從這邊來著手。"],["洪委員孟楷：是，部長，其實你講到重點了，這也是本席要提到的，就是很多人會講說現在少子化、高齡化這兩個議題造成我們國內好像很多工作都沒有辦法有人來做，但是重點就在於壯世代的這一個部分，怎麼樣能夠讓年長者，其實相對來講，現在的生理年齡跟身體年齡是比以前我們的傳統概念來的不一樣，所以這一點也是本席跟在座的，包括吳春城委員、包括很多委員，我們也會希望政府應該要重視未來壯世代這一塊。"],["許部長銘春：有，所以報告委員，我們大概從去年開始就有一個3年計畫，針對壯世代的部分，我們希望至少這3年可以多增加30萬的勞動力進到職場來，然後勞參率……"],["洪委員孟楷：有辦法嗎？"],["許部長銘春：我們有信心啦！因為我們其實是雙管齊下的，讓不管是在……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我們希望看到的是真實的狀況，因為其實本席剛剛都特別提到，2021年就已經缺工了，到現在2024年還在講缺工，甚至部長要離開前給下一任部長最大的忠告、提點就是缺工，這代表什麼？代表過去3年的時間並沒有完全解決問題啊！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實……"],["洪委員孟楷：甚至並沒有讓國人感受到你有在解決問題啊！"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實2021年那時候還在疫情期間，會有很多因素去影響到就業意願……"],["洪委員孟楷：3年的計畫……"],["許部長銘春：然後我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：你今天給本席一個資料，到底這3年計畫的目前進度及辦理情形如何，好不好？"],["許部長銘春：可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：那拉回來，另外一個部分，講到缺工，我也講到的是，對於勞動力的保障夠不夠？本席過去到現在也一直在關注所謂的外送員專法，到目前為止，不要說外送員專法，從2022年我們要提出，勞動部就有講過希望能夠制定外送員勞動權益指導原則，到目前沒有下文。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：只有各縣市政府有做一個指引、各縣市政府的議會有通過自治條例，但是勞動部最應該處理的勞動權益指導原則卻沒有出來。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，當然專法那部分真的會比較難一點，為什麼？因為現在全世界就只有西班牙有實施專法，可是實施以後發現並不理想，就是不管在勞工端或者雇主端，都會有一些不是他們原來想像的那麼OK，然後……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是你們的權益指導原則為什麼一直沒有出來？"],["許部長銘春：權益指導原則我們其實有研擬，但是我們現在的重點就是放在幫助這些平臺跟外送員做對話，因為他們很多問題是，其實他們更需要的是實質的解決，因為你說訂一個原則就只是一個原則而已，所以我們常常會遇到，譬如突然他外送單的報酬被砍了，那你說訂原則，那原則上我們就不准啊，那還是沒有解決，所以我們現在……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，部長，這就是我下一個問題。"],["許部長銘春：我就是請他……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果你沒有專法，然後你又說原則無法去約束，譬如平臺跟外送員之間的一個權力不對等，那我們到底要怎麼解決？而且更重要的是……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，所以我們有建立一個對話平臺，而且是機動的。"],["洪委員孟楷：我正想講，現在有對話，但是沒有有效的溝通啊！是各說各話。"],["許部長銘春：有、有、有。"],["洪委員孟楷：不是，這是你講的，在各說各話的情況下，有很多的外送員從去年到今年都在講，他們外送的權益越來越少，外送的薪資報酬越來越少，當然外送平臺跟外送員之間不是傳統的勞資關係……"],["許部長銘春：因為……"],["洪委員孟楷：但是以往一開始外送員1單可以有70塊，到現在2單40塊，還有變成是整單0塊，那就變成是平臺的待遇、平臺的報酬，它可以自己來做調整，但是外送員沒有辦法去反抗，外送員沒有辦法去爭取啊！這樣你覺得算是有效、合理的溝通嗎？"],["許部長銘春：這個問題，有時候是因為現在外送員多，變成競爭，這也是一種競爭，過去可能外送員少，他每一單的報酬會比較高一點，可是當外送員多，市場消費者單子少的時候，可能報酬就會變少，但是任何問題我們都會讓平臺跟外送員去溝通、對話，我們也要求平臺一定要……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我差點以為你要講出蔡總統的名言，你剛剛講說以前外送員少，現在外送員多，所以平臺怎麼砍是因為它可以有恃無恐，反正有勞動……"],["許部長銘春：不是，我不是這樣講，我沒有這個意思。"],["洪委員孟楷：我都很怕你講出之前蔡總統的名言。"],["許部長銘春：沒有，不會啦，委員，我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：外送員你自己去跟你的老闆講啊！"],["許部長銘春：沒有、沒有，我沒有這樣講。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們自立自強啊！"],["許部長銘春：沒有，委員，我沒有這樣講，我是要跟你說，有些狀況……"],["洪委員孟楷：不是嘛！所以本席現在講的是，有沒有注意到外送員的權益持續被檢討？"],["許部長銘春：有，所以……"],["洪委員孟楷：那你們做了什麼努力？"],["許部長銘春：所以我們就是透過對話來要求業者……"],["洪委員孟楷：既然我們的原則沒有出來，專法也沒有辦法立，那我們到底現在有什麼方式可以至少取得一個平衡？我其實站在天平的兩邊，外送平臺是一個技術的產業，是一個app……"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，其實對話……"],["洪委員孟楷：能方便大家的生活，能夠讓餐廳有外送平臺以及外送員來幫助，也讓餐廳增加一些業績，尤其在疫情期間確實有增加，外送員也可以選擇自己的工作。"],["許部長銘春：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是如果天平傾向某一邊，變成是外送平臺比較強勢，外送員比較弱勢，而外送員又沒有得到保障，尤其你們身為勞動部，應該是勞工的一個靠山，那我不知道還有什麼辦法。你又講說專法沒有辦法出來，看起來現在也沒有專法，之前2022年承諾說要有勞動權益指導原則，也沒有出來。"],["許部長銘春：報告委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：有沒有要繼續推動？"],["許部長銘春：我們會……"],["洪委員孟楷：還是只是一個空話？"],["許部長銘春：沒有、沒有，原則我們……"],["洪委員孟楷：還是勞動部能夠當公親，定期找外送員、外送平臺來喝咖啡？"],["許部長銘春：針對這些爭議的議題，我們現在就是在每次的正式會議都會邀……"],["洪委員孟楷：有定期嗎？"],["許部長銘春：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：定期是多久？"],["王司長厚偉：1個月到1個半月。"],["洪委員孟楷：會議紀錄有提供給大家看嗎？"],["王司長厚偉：有，都有給工會。"],["洪委員孟楷：都有給工會，那是不是能夠給本席？因為本席在質詢的時候其實是要不到相關資料的。"],["許部長銘春：我們把那個會議紀錄給委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：我其實是沒有看到公開的，其實是沒有展現的。"],["許部長銘春：我再把會議紀錄給委員。"],["主席：請勞動部把資料提供給委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：我覺得這部分您剛剛也提到了，就是外送員有那麼多，外送員也想要瞭解他的權益，如果說定期有開會，剛也講了，1個月到1個半月真的有開會的話，也應該要適時地揭露，讓所有的外送員可以知道。外送平臺就那幾家，但是外送員進進出出，我覺得這一點也是讓國人瞭解，到底他們有什麼樣的權利。"],["許部長銘春：對，報告委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果真的進入之後，勞動部是可以真真正正當外送員的靠山，所以……"],["主席：請部長會後把資料提供給洪委員。"],["洪委員孟楷：未來是不是能夠把我們定期的會議紀錄也公開在勞動部的網頁？這可以做得到吧？"],["許部長銘春：我們一般都是給工會啦！工會會給……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，給工會，但我現在講的是外送員畢竟不是每一個人都有參加工會，而且很多人可能目前還沒有。"],["許部長銘春：沒有問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：其實我覺得既然你有開會，既然你也覺得你們可以持平地找外送平臺跟外送員協調的話，你的會議紀錄就可以公開，這樣可以嗎？"],["許部長銘春：可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：多久可以把之前的會議紀錄一起公開？"],["許部長銘春：1個禮拜好嗎？"],["洪委員孟楷：1個禮拜？"],["許部長銘春：對，我們把它整理一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：可以把過去的會議紀錄，以及未來定期開會的會議紀錄放在勞動部的網站上面，讓人家來搜尋。"],["許部長銘春：好，可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝部長。"],["許部長銘春：謝謝。"],["主席：好，我們現在處理臨時提案，總共有1案，請宣讀。","有鑑於我國不當勞動行為裁決委員會，乃勞資爭議處理法在98年全文修正後，所開始運作之法定編組。然而，經查勞動部自該時施行裁決作業迄今，近年雖辦理有視訊作業要點，和勞工及工會出席裁決會議交通費要點二項規定，卻仍然無法有效解決外縣市人員所遇參與不便利及權益不平等之施政缺失，每每徒增人員在負擔交通奔波的時間機會成本下，所在勞動權益上又受額外之侵損。爰此，特決議請勞動部，針對在中、南部設置不當勞動行為裁決研議可行性，於一個月內向本委員會提交書面報告。","提案人：陳菁徽　　王育敏　　邱鎮軍"],["主席：請問行政單位有沒有意見？"],["王司長厚偉：謝謝陳委員的這個書面提案，請問委員，我們可不可以就改幾個字？就是在倒數第三行，「設置不當勞動行為裁決」的後面，加「委員會」3個字，就是在裁決之後加「委員會」。以上。其他的我們沒有意見。"],["主席：請問提案委員有沒有意見？"],["陳委員菁徽：同意。"],["主席：同意，好。"],["王司長厚偉：謝謝委員。"],["主席：那就照文字修正通過。臨時提案全部處理完畢。","接下來請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.443468750000001,"end":8.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.232218750000001,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.14284375,"end":24.820343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.37721875,"end":46.92659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.777843750000002,"end":27.419093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.517218750000005,"end":48.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.002218750000004,"end":50.250968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.38596875,"end":50.774093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.75721875,"end":55.71846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.752843750000004,"end":51.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.60034375,"end":56.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.853468750000005,"end":60.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.017218750000005,"end":68.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.59409375,"end":70.19721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.51784375,"end":74.31471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.93471875,"end":80.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.87909375000001,"end":81.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.07721875,"end":82.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.44409375000001,"end":84.65909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.13159375000001,"end":85.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.42659375000001,"end":88.70909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.02971875,"end":90.78471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.90284375,"end":91.88159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.86471875000001,"end":92.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.37096875,"end":93.56909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.97409375000001,"end":96.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.96096875,"end":97.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.07909375000001,"end":97.55159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.85534375,"end":98.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.74971875,"end":100.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.22221875000001,"end":104.35221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.85846875,"end":118.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.44284375000001,"end":125.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.69909375,"end":127.90971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.63971875000001,"end":134.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.01409375,"end":137.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.61284375,"end":137.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.68034375000002,"end":137.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.76471875000001,"end":142.01721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.38846875000002,"end":143.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.04221875000002,"end":144.05909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.09284375000001,"end":144.37971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.93659375000001,"end":145.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.98284375,"end":146.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.80971875,"end":149.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.77971875,"end":152.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.81721875000002,"end":155.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.55096875,"end":159.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.46596875,"end":186.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.94284375,"end":197.19846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.67096875000001,"end":210.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.69846875000002,"end":210.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.79971875,"end":211.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.74471875,"end":222.79784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.97659375,"end":213.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.02659375000002,"end":217.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.78971875000002,"end":220.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.25784375,"end":222.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.15221875,"end":229.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.48034375,"end":231.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.79221875000002,"end":233.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.28971875000002,"end":235.87596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.48346875000001,"end":236.82096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.97284375,"end":237.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.96409375000002,"end":240.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.36909375000002,"end":240.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.43221875,"end":241.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.30971875,"end":245.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.78159375,"end":246.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.03471875000002,"end":249.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.15659375,"end":258.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.79221875,"end":274.19909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.89159375,"end":272.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.77721875000003,"end":274.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.19909375000003,"end":280.56096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.01659375,"end":285.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.05034375,"end":296.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.63971875000004,"end":290.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.52471875000003,"end":302.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.85284375000003,"end":303.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.73034375000003,"end":305.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.64971875000003,"end":313.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.97346875,"end":315.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.37409375000004,"end":327.67596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.52846875,"end":326.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.19909375000003,"end":375.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.91721875,"end":353.02221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.42784375,"end":377.67659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":378.52034375000005,"end":382.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.01346875,"end":395.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.67971875,"end":385.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.73346875000004,"end":398.44971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.43721875,"end":426.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.91721875,"end":404.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.54721875,"end":422.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.46221875000003,"end":431.67659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.96346875,"end":445.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.15971875,"end":448.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.17659375000005,"end":445.53096875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.27721875000003,"end":449.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.45846875,"end":454.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.14971875000003,"end":464.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.08909375,"end":472.93596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.13846875,"end":480.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":479.17971875,"end":479.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.41159375,"end":481.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.52971875000003,"end":484.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.18721875000006,"end":486.09846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":486.52034375000005,"end":493.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":492.10596875000005,"end":494.92409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.24909375000004,"end":500.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.23596875000004,"end":497.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.86034375,"end":498.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.85159375,"end":505.63971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.69534375,"end":502.33221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.34471875,"end":516.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":508.13721875000005,"end":510.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":511.15784375000004,"end":514.4653437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.77721875,"end":520.8103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.8103437500001,"end":521.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.04659375,"end":521.1140937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":521.1140937499999,"end":521.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.29971875,"end":553.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":523.25721875,"end":523.7634687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.0290937500001,"end":527.4084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":540.5203437499999,"end":540.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.46346875,"end":554.5434687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.04971875,"end":556.6528437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":556.7709687500001,"end":565.8328437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.3390937500001,"end":566.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":567.0647187500001,"end":567.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.39784375,"end":569.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.0390937500001,"end":569.0559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.0559687500001,"end":569.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.07284375,"end":578.3034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.98409375,"end":574.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":579.24846875,"end":579.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.53096875,"end":584.0747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.3740937499999,"end":587.8884687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":587.9053437499999,"end":591.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":591.49971875,"end":592.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.73159375,"end":592.7822187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":592.7822187500001,"end":594.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":596.8997187500001,"end":597.8784687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.38471875,"end":599.5322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.6840937500001,"end":600.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.18596875,"end":612.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":605.1684687500001,"end":608.1215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":612.0872187500001,"end":612.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.10409375,"end":644.5715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.15034375,"end":613.1840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":613.28534375,"end":614.5678437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":636.5222187500001,"end":637.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.42034375,"end":641.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":644.8078437500001,"end":652.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":645.3647187500001,"end":645.8034687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.46159375,"end":648.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.9540937500001,"end":654.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":654.7978437500001,"end":656.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.46846875,"end":661.7334687500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":656.9240937500001,"end":657.9365937500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":662.79659375,"end":675.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":674.99721875,"end":676.29659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":675.55409375,"end":676.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":676.6172187500001,"end":676.6340937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":677.08971875,"end":679.1484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":680.86971875,"end":681.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":681.88221875,"end":682.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.0847187500001,"end":682.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.42221875,"end":682.5065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":682.57409375,"end":682.9622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":682.9622187500001,"end":691.2140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":688.34534375,"end":688.4128437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":691.28159375,"end":691.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":691.72034375,"end":692.00721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":692.3784687500001,"end":693.0872187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.471,"end":24.436,"text":"主席,謝謝。麻煩請許部長。請許部長。紅維好。部長好。即將卸任,媒體早上有請教你。你也講是說新接任的勞動部長可能會面臨到兩大問題。缺工跟"},{"start":25.424,"end":25.664,"text":"三年前就開始。"},{"start":51.533,"end":74.134,"text":"2021年就可以找到有工廠無人座相關報導我們也聽到很多的產業界給我們的問題醫院開不出床不是沒有病床是沒有護理人員餐廳沒有包廂不是沒有包廂是沒有服務人員飯店沒有房間並不是因為沒有房間而是因為沒有防務人員所以"},{"start":75.953,"end":97.424,"text":"到底現在我們臺灣面臨到的問題,過去三年過去了,我們現在缺工的總數有沒有統計?我們到底缺多少工?大概23、4萬左右啦。23、4萬。那過去這三年,我們的努力到底是缺工人數越來越多還是有減少?"},{"start":98.044,"end":116.02,"text":"報告委因為目前看起來好像還是沒有這個整個人口結構的問題其實現在不是只有臺灣全世界先進國家都面臨同樣的問題但我的意思是說我們這些面臨人口結構我們還是要想方法像過去我們一直認為說這些壯世代"},{"start":118.522,"end":142.657,"text":"的就我們的勞參率是其實比起韓日是低的那我現在怎麼樣來也想要延長這個退休年齡嗎不是延長退休年齡不需要延長因為很多是我跟我說他是早退比如說很多55歲我們發現55歲退出職場的非常多我們在55歲之前的勞參率跟韓日差不多55歲以後"},{"start":145,"end":145.38,"text":"我們國內的這些"},{"start":169.921,"end":175.986,"text":"是,部長請你講到重點這也是本席要提到就是說很多人會講說現在少子化、高齡化這兩個議題造成說我們國內好像很多工作沒有辦法有人做"},{"start":197.725,"end":221.245,"text":"但是重點就在於是壯世代的這一個部分怎麼樣能夠讓年長者其實相對來講我們現在的一個生理年齡跟身體年齡其實是比以前我們的傳統概念來的來的不一樣的所以這一點也是本席也跟我們在座包括吳承存委員啊包括很多委員我們也希望是說政府應該要重視未來壯世代這一塊"},{"start":223.206,"end":233.451,"text":"所以報告委我們大概就是從去年開始我們就有一個三年計畫針對壯世代的部分我們希望至少這三年可能多增加三十萬的勞動力進到職場來"},{"start":239.375,"end":256.825,"text":"有辦法嗎?我覺得我們有信心,因為我們其實是雙管齊下。部長,我們希望看到的是真實的狀況,因為其實本席剛剛都特別提到2021年就已經缺工了,到現在2024年還在講缺工。"},{"start":258.866,"end":279.94,"text":"甚至部長要離開前給下一任部長最大的忠告提點就是缺工代表什麼代表過去三年的時間並沒有完全的解決問題甚至並沒有讓國人感受到你有在解決問題其實2021那時候還在疫情期間其實會有很多因素去影響到"},{"start":282.102,"end":302.039,"text":"來這樣子三年的計畫你今天給本席個資料到底這三年計畫目前進度以及半年進行好不好那拉回來另外一個部分講到缺工我也講到是說對於勞動力的保障夠不夠這是本席過去到現在也一直在關注所謂外送員的專訪"},{"start":303.769,"end":329.97,"text":"到目前為止不要說外送員專法從2022年我們要提出勞動部就有講過說希望能夠制定外送員勞動權益指導原則但目前沒有下文只有各縣市政府有做一個指引各縣市政府的議會有通過自治條例但是我們勞動部最應該處理的勞動權益指導原則沒有出來報告委員這個我們在"},{"start":330.57,"end":345.007,"text":"整個當然專法那部分我跟委員報告真的會比較難一點為什麼因為現在全世界就只有西班牙有實施專法可是實施以後發現並不理想就是說不管在這個勞工端或者雇主端"},{"start":345.567,"end":368.841,"text":"都會有一些不是他們原來想像的那麼OK。但是你的權力指導原則為什麼一直沒有說呢?權力指導原則我們其實有原理但是我們現在比較重點就是放在幫助這些平台跟外送員做對話因為他們很多問題就是說其實他需要一個原則是就是說原則嘛但是他們更需要是實質的解決"},{"start":370.322,"end":399.204,"text":"所以我們常常會遇到說比如說他突然新他的外送單的報酬被砍了那你說定原則那原則他我們說不准啊可是還是沒有解決所以我們現在部長這就是我下一個問題啊如果你又沒有專法然後你又說原則無法去約束比如說平台跟外送員之間的一個權利不對等那我們到底要怎麼解決而且更重要的是我們建立一個對話平台更重要的是我就正想講"},{"start":400.164,"end":416.556,"text":"現在有對話但是沒有有效的溝通是各說各話這是你講的現在各說各話的情況就是很多外送員從去年到今年都講了他們的外送權益越來越少外送的薪資報酬越來越少"},{"start":417.416,"end":442.074,"text":"當然這個外送平台跟外送員的權利不是傳統的勞資關係但是從以往一開始外送員一單可以有70塊到現在兩單40塊還有變成是整單0塊那就變成是平台的這個待遇平台的這個報酬的狀況他可以自己來做調整但是外送員沒有辦法去反抗外送員沒有辦法去爭取啊"},{"start":442.654,"end":463.633,"text":"那這樣你覺得這算是有效合理的溝通嗎?這個問題有時候就是說因為外送員多啦變成競爭這也是一種競爭啦過去可能外送員少他的報酬他每一單的報酬會比較高一點可是當你外送員多的時候那你可能市場這些消費者"},{"start":464.974,"end":465.814,"text":"我差點都以為你要講出蔡總統的名言"},{"start":485.219,"end":507.233,"text":"你剛講說外送員以前外送員少現在外送員多所以平台他怎麼砍是因為他可以有事無口反正有勞動我都很怕你講出會之前蔡總統明年那外送員你自己去跟你的老闆講啊沒有沒有我沒有講這樣你們自立自強啊沒有委員我沒有講這樣不是嘛所以本期現在講的是有沒有注意到外送員的權益持續被減少"},{"start":509.996,"end":510.879,"text":"所以我們就是透過對話來要求"},{"start":516.974,"end":544.001,"text":"我們到底現在有什麼樣是可以至少取得一個平衡我其實站在天平的兩邊外送平台是一個技術的產業是一個APP方便大家民眾的生活能夠讓餐廳有外送平台以及外送員來幫助也讓餐廳有一些業績的一個增加尤其在疫情期間確實有增加外送員也可以選擇自己的工作但是如果說當某一個天平傾向一邊"},{"start":545.081,"end":565.472,"text":"變成是外送平台比較強勢外送員比較弱勢而外送員比較弱勢又沒有得到保障尤其是我們身為勞動部應該是勞工的一個靠山的時候那我不知道說還有什麼辦法那你又講說專法沒有辦法出來看起來現在也沒有專法那之前2022年承諾的說要勞動權益指導原則也沒有出來"},{"start":569.205,"end":594.284,"text":"有沒有要繼續推動還是只是一個空話還是能夠定期外送員跟外送平台勞動部來當公卿勞動部定期找外送員、外送平台來喝咖啡我們現在就是我們是正式會議啊我們每次都針對這些爭議的議題都會邀有定期嗎有定多久"},{"start":596.96,"end":623.801,"text":"有會議記錄供給大家看嗎?供給公會那是不是能夠因為本席在質詢的時候要相關資料其實是要不到的其實是沒有看到公開的其實是沒有展現的我覺得這一點這一點部分您剛也提到了這就是外送員有那麼多那外送員他也想要了解他的權益那如果說定期有開會剛也講了"},{"start":625.202,"end":651.309,"text":"一個月到一個半月真的有開會的話那也應該適時的要揭露讓所有外送員可以知道外送平台就那幾家但是外送員進進出出我覺得這一點也是讓國人了解說到底他們有什麼樣的權利如果說真的進入之後勞動部是可以真真正正當外送員的靠山所以未來是不是能夠把我們的定期的會議紀錄也公開在勞動部的網頁"},{"start":654.133,"end":678.775,"text":"這可以做得到吧?我們一般都是給工會啦!給工會啊!但我現在講的是說外送員他畢竟他不是每一個人都有參加工會那你照理講而且很多人可能目前還沒有那如果說有的話其實我覺得你既然有開會你也既然覺得是說你們是可以持平的一端來找外送平台跟外送員的話你的會議紀錄就可以公開這樣可以嗎?可以!多久可以把之前的會議紀錄一起公開?"},{"start":680.873,"end":690.77,"text":"一個禮拜好嗎?一個禮拜。我們要整理一下。勞動部的網站上面把我們過去的會議記錄以及未來定期開會可以放在網路上讓人家來搜尋。"}]}},{"id":"151754","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151754","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce154bef1c3e3c69d494e44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed069def272847d3ef25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:44:31 - 11:50:25","影片長度":"00:05:54","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-17"},"duration":354,"end_time":"2024-04-25T11:50:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T11:44:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":602,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時44分）謝謝召委。首先我想針對剛剛翁曉玲立委講到本黨的法案是不是擴權這個部分，我聽了滿驚訝的，不知道是不是我們對擴權這兩個字的見解跟您不一樣，我知道您是法律專業，那我從中文跟法律來瞭解，民進黨版的版本明明是強化自我約束，就是我們對於二親等或是公費助理的規範，希望大家能夠更公開、透明、自我約束，這怎麼會是擴權呢？這是一個立委知道自己的權力很大，因此利益迴避等等應該要強化。更有趣的事情是，可能翁委員是新立委，對我們已經修過的法律並不熟悉，民進黨是參考新修過的「公職人員利益衝突迴避法」第三條文字，希望能夠將我們立法委員行為法中的第二條跟第二條之一update，所以我想翁委員可能對法律要不是有專業、特別的見解，要不然就是沒有update最新的法規啦，我想藉這個機會說明一下。","再來，我想針對我自己的提案跟我們民進黨納入的性別平等法案做一些說明，首先我很高興剛剛民眾黨的總召黃國昌表示，他的文字是這樣：老實講，我個人是贊成這個性別平等。他說：我個人是贊成的，性騷也好、性侵害也好、性歧視也好，都放進來沒問題，但我的問題是立法技術的問題。後面講了一串，其他行為放不放等等。剛剛吳思瑤委員已經講過技術的問題不是問題，如果民眾黨覺得哪一條需要強化的話都歡迎提出來逐條討論。既然黃國昌委員已經贊成我們的性別平等改革法案，希望他不只是個人意見，民眾黨在後續投票、各種決定的時候，也都希望落實他剛剛所說的話。","回來講就是，這個議題到底是不是重要？我想跟大家分享一下，今天立法院秘書長這邊準備的相關報告有講到美國、英國、法國都很明確有相關的規定，其他國家沒有列出來。我跟大家分享一下，2017年美國眾議院因為#MeToo事件爆發，他們還嚴格規範新會期的前90天，從議員到職員、到國會助理都必須要接受反性騷、反歧視的培訓，而且要求國會議員辦公室都要張貼相關的規定；美國眾議院的倫理委員會得主動或依申訴調查之，「得主動」耶！這個部分相比我們現在提出的條文，我想我們是收斂很多，這是美國。英國下議院也決議由標準專員來調查國會議員的性騷，然後提報標準委員會議決、記錄處分。各位如果有看到歐盟的話，他們也在2018年強化懲罰，而且歐盟要求他們的會員國家都必須要在議會裡面制定相關的規範。","我們可以看到這麼多民主國家都有這個部分，那臺灣呢？其實我們在國會的女性比例早就超過40%，那剛剛通過相關國會性騷規範的美國、英國、法國之國會女性比例其實都遠低於40%，臺灣女性議員在2023年的排名是全球25名，美國66名、英國48名、法國33名。所以我們在性別平等這個部分其實是亞洲第一名，可是我們在國會性別平等法案的進度遠輸於這些國會女性參政比低於我們的國家！","最後，我還有一點時間也跟大家分享一下，立法院到底需不需要性騷、性別平等的國會改革？我認為非常需要，為什麼？我自己也是我們性別平等委員會的委員，根據立法院2020年3月公布針對國會助理的匿名性騷調查問卷，有520個國會助理匿名填問卷，其中有13個人說本人被性騷擾、17個人現場目睹過性騷擾，有209人──也就是有4成受訪的人在匿名調查時認為立法院性騷擾很嚴重，這個部分他們直指的很多都是立委本人的性騷擾，我想今天能夠說出來的人真的非常、非常少。","所以立法院國會改革請國民黨、民眾黨都一起支持！剛剛民眾黨總召黃國昌已經說他個人支持，希望是黨團支持，國民黨的委員也不要因為你們自己發生過有性騷擾的立委被法院認定，或者是總召是嫌疑犯，那就不敢表達意見。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝范委員。","因為接下來輪到本席質詢，先休息1分鐘，我跟代理主席討論一下。","休息（11時50分）","繼續開會（11時51分）"],["主席（吳委員思瑤代）：現在有請鍾佳濱召委詢答。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席，會議詢問，因為待會會超過時間，要不要先處理一下會議時間？"],["主席：主席宣布：今天上午會議到鍾佳濱委員質詢完，我們中午先稍事休息，下午兩點繼續開會。謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-17","speakers":["鍾佳濱","范雲","羅智強","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林思銘","吳思瑤","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員高金素梅等\n23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條\n之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案；三、繼續審查\n( 一) 民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」\n案、( 二) 委員賴瑞隆等16 人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草\n案」案；四、(一)繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審\n查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」\n案、( 四 ) 繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kaaw 等19 人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(五)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)審查\n委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133401_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.37096875,"end":90.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.05471875,"end":144.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.95346875,"end":279.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.39221875000004,"end":353.98409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":11.748,"end":12.349,"text":"民進黨版的版本明明是強化自我約束"},{"start":37.77,"end":55.044,"text":"強化自我約束就是我們對二清等公費助理的規範希望大家能夠相關更公開透明自我約束這怎麼會是擴權呢這是一個立委知道自己的權力很大利益迴避等等應該要強化"},{"start":56.044,"end":80.211,"text":"更有趣的事情是說可能歐委員是新立委對我們已經修過的法律並不熟悉新修過的公職員利益迴避了相關的法規第三條的文字民進黨是參考這個文字希望能夠在我們立法委員的行為法中的第二條跟第二條之一能夠update"},{"start":80.911,"end":99.102,"text":"所以我想這個翁委員可能對法律要不然就是有專業特別的見解要不然就是沒有update我們最新的法規那我想藉著機會說明一下那再回來我想針對我自己的提案跟我們民進黨納入的性別平等法案做一些說明那首先呢"},{"start":99.822,"end":122.231,"text":"我很高興剛剛民眾黨的總召黃國昌表示,他的文字這樣說:「老實講,我個人是贊成性別平等的。他說我個人是贊成的。性騷也好,性侵害也好,性歧視也好,都放進來沒問題。但我的問題是立法技術的問題,然後後面講了一串其他行為放不放。"},{"start":122.611,"end":122.951,"text":"條文宣告"},{"start":144.889,"end":145.69,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草"},{"start":162.765,"end":176.474,"text":"美國、英國、法國都很明確有相關的規定那其他國家他們有立出來我跟大家分享一下2017年美國的眾議院那因為蜜兔事件爆發他們還嚴格規範新會期的前90天從議員到職員到國會助理"},{"start":183.118,"end":197.676,"text":"都必須要接受反性騷、反歧視的培訓而且要求國會議員的辦公室都要張貼相關的規定美國眾議院倫理委員會得主動或依申訴調查之類"},{"start":198.317,"end":201.7,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法"},{"start":227.841,"end":228.441,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":244.431,"end":245.772,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":263.729,"end":264.609,"text":"案、三十三名。」"},{"start":280.509,"end":294.888,"text":"最後我還有一點時間也跟大家分享一下立法院到底需不需要這個性騷性別平等的國會改革我認為非常需要為什麼因為根據我們立法院我自己也是我們性別平等委員會的委員2020年3月公佈的"},{"start":299.474,"end":303.959,"text":"針對國會助理的匿名性騷擾調查問卷有520個國會助理匿名貼問卷其中有13個人說他本人被性騷擾17個人現場目睹過性騷擾"},{"start":315.491,"end":338.964,"text":"兩百零九人就是有四成的人受訪的時候匿名調查的時候認為立法院性騷擾很嚴重所以我想這個部分他們直指的很多都是立委本人的性騷那我想今天能夠說出來的人真的非常非常的少那所以呢這個真的是立法院國會改革請國民黨民眾黨都一起支持"},{"start":339.284,"end":353,"text":"那也請國民黨的委員,剛剛民眾黨總召黃國昌已經說他個人支持的希望是黨團支持,國民黨的委員也不要因為你們自己發生過有性騷擾的立委法院認定或者是總召是嫌疑犯那就不敢表達意見,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151753","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151753","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15ba5b796d1b431d0de44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed00f3b605d23068e905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"11:33:38 - 11:44:25","影片長度":"00:10:47","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-17"},"duration":647,"end_time":"2024-04-25T11:44:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T11:33:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":576,"blocks":[["翁委員曉玲：（11時33分）主席好，有請周秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：翁委員好。"],["翁委員曉玲：對於這次立法院多位委員有提出國會改革法案，我在這裡表示我是支持國會全面改革，不管是外部改革、內部改革，或是針對立法院自己的軟體、硬體各方面的改革，我都認為有必要性。尤其是我初踏立法院，我也發現了確實立法院不管在空間、設備、人力各方面其實都是不足的，在很多內部法制及經費各方面的使用上，其實都有很多需要改進的空間。因此我也希望秘書長可以領導團隊，就國會本身的改革，可以進行一些適度地檢討、研析，提出相關的法案。","誠如剛剛吳思瑤委員有提到，我們現在的國會辦公室確實是老舊，空間又狹窄，很多地方是不足的，空間使用上是沒有效率，而且也不足。在網路上傳說有委員在辦公室養狗，而且還有占用會議室等等這些行徑，不知道秘書長有沒有指揮立法院的同仁去調查、瞭解，是否真有這樣的一個情形？"],["周秘書長萬來：那大概是以前的事吧！可能我這幾天……"],["翁委員曉玲：是嗎？我是看到最近好像也繼續還有這樣的新聞，如果沒有的話，可能也要請立法院做個更正的新聞，否則的話，大家真的一直會認為我們在立法院裡面，是不是到現在還有委員占用辦公室、會議室養寵物？也希望未來在國會空間改革的方面，大概除了育兒室之外，可能還需要再設置一個寵物室。"],["周秘書長萬來：好，謝謝，我再瞭解。"],["翁委員曉玲：接下來，我要針對這次會議新提出來，幾位委員針對國會改革的這些版本，民進黨委員在這次提的內容，比較像是對內國會改革的法案裡面，我也發現了有擴權的現象及問題，在賴瑞隆委員所提出來的法案當中，主要是針對立法委員行為法的幾個條文修法，其中在第二條裡面非常明顯，他就擴大了現在立法委員關係人的範圍，不知道秘書長如何去看賴委員這裡所提出來的，擴大立法委員關係人的範圍，將關係人從配偶到兩親等的親屬，甚至連代替立委處理事務的相關人員，全部都納入立法委員關係人的範圍裡面。我在想是不是未來幫我們清潔的那些清潔人員，或是幫我們處理一些簡單影印事務的工讀生，全部都要納入到所謂立委關係人的範圍裡，不知道周秘書長怎麼看這樣的修法？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為我大概拜讀了幾次賴委員的提案，尤其對於關係人的部分，他是引用利衝法跟遊說法裡面的內容把它納過來，所以我才會特別說立法委員有沒有特別對這一個屬性再特別規範，因為關係人擴大得相當大。"],["翁委員曉玲：是。"],["周秘書長萬來：所以我才在剛才的報告裡提到由委員來做立法政策的選擇，因為關係人依照利衝法的話，範圍會是相當大的情形。"],["翁委員曉玲：沒有錯。秘書長確實都有詳讀每個委員所提出來的法案，我必須說，賴委員提出來的這個條文修法就是一個擴權，不僅僅是將原來約束立法委員以及配偶等等的關係人，擴大到公費助理、所有的助理、代替立法委員處理事務者，以及包含跟立委共同生活的其他非直系親屬的家屬等等，其擴權範圍非常之廣、非常之大。但這個部分會涉及到未來這些關係人都受到利益衝突法的規範，以及可能還有相關行為、行動等各方面的約束，這樣的一個條文才是真正典型的民進黨在國會改革上面的擴權條文。","另外還有一個部分，在賴委員所提出來的立法委員行為法第十條，他特別針對本人及關係人前往中國，我把那個條文唸一下好了，在他所提出來的第十條修法規定：「曾參加立法院秘密會議之立法委員，其本人及其關係人於任期中或聘僱關係存續期間，前往中國及港澳地區，應向立法院報備，並於網站公開。」請問秘書長，這裡的中國是指哪裡？"],["周秘書長萬來：這個應該是大陸地區。"],["翁委員曉玲：是大陸地區？"],["周秘書長萬來：應該是大陸地區，但他的法條是寫「中國」，所以委員報告的時候，特別……"],["翁委員曉玲：我們現在中華民國有承認「中國」嗎？「中國」是一個國家嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：我在報告上，翁委員有稍微提醒，我在書面報告就用引號，所以我是特別再調整過。"],["翁委員曉玲：所以我必須要講，透過修法草案去實現他們的兩國論，我覺得其實是非常不妥的，至少在我們現在中華民國憲法的架構底下，我們就只有一個中國，而這個「中國」指的是「中華民國」，我不知道這邊的「中國」指的是哪裡？如果按照剛剛秘書長的說法，這邊應該指的是「大陸地區」。我不反對要將參加秘密會議的立法委員，未來對於他的行為做比較高的約束，可是在這裡的法條上面，有這樣的一個用語，基本上是違反我們現在中華民國憲法以及兩岸人民關係條例裡面的相關規範，是非常不適當的修法。","同時，大家要知道，我剛剛所唸的那個條文裡面，本人及其關係人只要未來前往大陸地區及港澳地區，所有的行為都必須要向立法院報備，還有要在網站上面公開。我非常支持秘書長在您的報告裡面所講的，基本上這個已經嚴重侵害到立法委員以及這麼廣大關係人的行動自由與個人資訊隱私權等等這些問題。所以我們就知道，相較起來，國民黨的國會改革法案基本上是要樹立權責相符、要落實權責相符，以及需要捍衛我們立法院自己的質詢權力，我們要強化立法院的核心職權，而不是像民進黨委員這裡所提出來的國會改革版本，他基本上是打擊範圍更大，而且把一些並不是那麼重要跟本案無相關的一些當事人，全部都要納入到受管制、拘束的範圍。所以我希望秘書長以後針對像這樣的修法，可以提出更具體的意見。","最後一點，就是在這次大法官針對死刑釋憲的案件處理上面，我滿遺憾的，立法院對於死刑釋憲沒有提出立法院的立場，從權力分立的角度來看，立法院應該要捍衛，或者是至少要去闡明立法權的職權範圍在哪裡，我們立法權的核心職權在哪裡，跟司法權、跟釋憲權中間的界線。我很遺憾的，立法院並沒有代表我們全體立法委員在立法職權上面，去向憲法法院說明立法權的核心價值，以及要維護我們立法權的重要性，只有本黨團有提出法庭之友的意見，向憲法法院表達，我們對於捍衛、維護立法的核心價值來做說明。就這個部分我也希望未來只要是司法院在審理相關法律是否合憲的時候，我們立法院都能夠勇於任事、積極地表達我們立法委員的意見。謝謝。"],["周秘書長萬來：謝謝指教。"],["主席：謝謝翁委員、謝謝周秘書長。","接下來有請范雲委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-17","speakers":["鍾佳濱","范雲","羅智強","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林思銘","吳思瑤","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員高金素梅等\n23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條\n之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案；三、繼續審查\n( 一) 民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」\n案、( 二) 委員賴瑞隆等16 人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草\n案」案；四、(一)繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審\n查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」\n案、( 四 ) 繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kaaw 等19 人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(五)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)審查\n委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133401_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.04659375,"end":11.134718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.505968750000001,"end":12.332843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.024093750000002,"end":17.766593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.766593750000002,"end":18.239093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.52596875,"end":33.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.83159375,"end":61.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.40534375,"end":75.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.73221875,"end":87.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.97909375,"end":122.59409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.33659375,"end":125.39534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.58096875000001,"end":128.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.64846875,"end":155.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.43284375000002,"end":156.71534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.54659375,"end":160.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.76096875000002,"end":169.77659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.95784375000002,"end":203.49284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.93159375000002,"end":204.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.51784375000003,"end":231.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.94409375,"end":247.68846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.51534375000003,"end":253.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.05034375000002,"end":256.69971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.05409375,"end":266.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.94284375,"end":268.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.66409375,"end":275.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.86971875,"end":276.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.24096875000004,"end":289.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.66096875,"end":351.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.52159375,"end":290.09534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.29659375,"end":353.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.59159375,"end":355.46909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.75596875,"end":356.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.46846875,"end":378.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.36409375000005,"end":380.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.76471875000004,"end":381.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.82784375,"end":383.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.57846875,"end":385.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.65846875,"end":399.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.60721875,"end":390.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.50971875000005,"end":393.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.73284375000003,"end":396.30659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.09971875,"end":402.21284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.87096875000003,"end":412.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.15221875000003,"end":414.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.00409375000004,"end":417.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.54784375,"end":433.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.73096875000005,"end":437.92034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.71346875,"end":454.37346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":454.69409375000004,"end":455.89221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.55034375,"end":462.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.27096875,"end":465.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.84846875000005,"end":490.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.65471875000003,"end":509.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.34784375000004,"end":546.2409687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":546.8147187500001,"end":553.2947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.5603437500001,"end":555.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.3703437500001,"end":558.7790937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.65659375,"end":563.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.5715937500001,"end":574.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":575.60346875,"end":580.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.4422187499999,"end":611.6315937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.0872187500001,"end":631.66221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.2022187499999,"end":633.5690937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":634.0078437500001,"end":644.0147187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.74034375,"end":645.19596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":646.30971875,"end":648.0647187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.029,"end":8.36,"text":"主席好 有請周秘書長請周秘書長"},{"start":17.128,"end":45.874,"text":"安委員好好的對於這個這次立法院好諸位多位委員有提出國會改革法案我在這裡我表示我是支持國會全面改革不管是外部改革內部改革或是針對我們自己立法院的軟體硬體各方面的改革我都認為有必要性尤其是我們這個我出"},{"start":46.374,"end":52.618,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條"},{"start":78.225,"end":86.695,"text":"將國會就本身自己的改革可以做一些適度的檢討、研析然後提出相關的法案。那麼陳茹剛剛"},{"start":89.042,"end":102.091,"text":"而吳思良委員有提到我們現在國會辦公室呢確實是老舊空間又狹窄那麼很多地方是不足的就空間使用是沒有效率而且也不足的那麼在網傳就網路上面報這個網路上傳"},{"start":107.935,"end":122.331,"text":"傳說有委員在辦公室養狗而且還有占用會議室等等這些行徑。不知道秘書長這邊有沒有指揮我們的立法院的同仁去調查瞭解是否真有這樣的一個情形。"},{"start":123.376,"end":144.883,"text":"那是大概以前的事吧我是看好像最近好像也還有繼續有這樣子一個新聞如果沒有的話那可能也要請立法院這裡做一個這個更正這個新聞否則的話大家真的會一直會認為我們在立法院裡面是不是到現在還有委員這個占用辦公室會議室養寵物"},{"start":146.664,"end":149.245,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":171.001,"end":175.504,"text":"就是民進黨委員他們在這次提的比較像是對內的這個國會改革的法案裡面我也發現了有擴權的現象有擴權的這個問題那在賴瑞隆委員所提出來的法案當中主要是針對立法委員行為法的這個幾個條文的修法其中在第二條裡面"},{"start":197.06,"end":202.273,"text":"非常明顯他就擴大了現在立法委員關係人的範圍。不知道"},{"start":205.56,"end":206.781,"text":"秘書長這裡怎麼樣去看我們賴委員這裡所提出來的擴大立法委員關係人的範圍那麼將關係人從配偶到兩親等的親屬甚至還連代替立委處理事務者事務的相關人員全部都納入立法委員的關係人的範圍裡面"},{"start":232.223,"end":246.036,"text":"我正在想是未來幫我們清潔的那些清潔人員或是幫我們處理一些簡單影印事物的公讀生全部都要納入到這裡所謂的立委的關係人的範圍。不知道周秘書長怎麼看這樣子的修法?"},{"start":248.544,"end":265.43,"text":"因為我大概拜讀了幾次賴委員的提案尤其對於關西人的他是引用立法跟有稅法裡面把他納過來所以我才會特別說"},{"start":266.997,"end":288.532,"text":"事由立法委員有沒有特別在對這一個的屬性在特別規範那因為關係人擴大了相當大所以我才在剛才報告來說這一個由委員來做這個立法政策的選擇因為這個關係人照立法的話是範圍是相當大的一個選擇"},{"start":288.712,"end":288.852,"text":"條文修正草"},{"start":307.38,"end":322.084,"text":"關系人擬具擴大到公費助理、代替立法委員處理事務者以及包含跟立委共同生活的其他的非直系親屬的家屬等等其實它的擬具範圍非常之廣、非常之大但這個部分會涉及到未來這些關系人他都受到利益衝突法的規範以及可能"},{"start":333.407,"end":350.86,"text":"還有相關的這個行為行動各方面的約束所以這樣子的一個條文才是真正典型民進黨在國會改革上面的擴權條文那另外還有一個部分就是在賴委員在這裡所提出來的立法委員行為法的第十條他特別針對本人及關係人前往中國"},{"start":359.74,"end":379.474,"text":"我把那個條文念一下好了在這個他所提出來的修法第十條的規定就曾經參加立法院命令會議的立法委員其本人及其關係人於任期中或聘過關係程序期間前往中國及港澳地區應向立法院報備並且於網站公開請問秘書長這裡的中國是指哪裡?"},{"start":386.558,"end":390.261,"text":"這一個應該是大陸地區,但是他的法條是寫中國,所以我也報告了說特別..."},{"start":402.875,"end":403.615,"text":"我必須要講透過修法草案"},{"start":418.601,"end":421.523,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案 。"},{"start":439.289,"end":447.916,"text":"此處指的是大陸地區,我不反對要將參加秘密會議的立法委員未來對於他的行為做比較高的約束,可是在這裡的法條上面這樣的一個用語基本上是違反我們現在中華民國憲法以及兩岸人民關係條例裡面的相關規範。"},{"start":466.413,"end":493.515,"text":"這個非常不適當的這樣子的一個修法同時大家要知道我剛剛所唸那個條文裡面本人及其關係人只要未來前往大陸地區及港澳地區所有的行為都必須要向立法院報備還有要在網站上面公開我非常支持秘書長在您的報告裡面所講的這個基本上已經有嚴重的侵害到這個立法委員以及關係人這麼廣大的這個"},{"start":495.998,"end":508.159,"text":"關心人的行動自由以及個人資訊隱私權等等這些的問題所以我們就知道相較起來國民黨的國會改革法案我們基本上是要樹立"},{"start":510.387,"end":515.631,"text":"全責相符,以及需要捍衛我們自己立法院的質詢權利,我們要強化立法院的核心的職權,而不是像民進黨委員這裡所提出來的國會改革版本,那麼它基本上是打擊範圍更大,而且把一些基本上並不是那麼重要跟本案無相關的一些當事人全部都要納入到"},{"start":538.931,"end":540.692,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":554.605,"end":574.541,"text":"在這次大法官針對死刑釋憲的案件的處理上面我蠻遺憾的立法院對於這樣的一個死刑的釋憲沒有提出立法院的立場從權力分立的角度來看"},{"start":575.643,"end":578.565,"text":"立法院應該要捍衛或者是至少要去闡明立法權的職權範圍在哪裡我們立法權的核心職權在哪裡跟司法權跟釋憲權中間的這個界限"},{"start":591.636,"end":594.318,"text":"案件,則不代表全體立法委員的立法職權上向憲法法院說明立法權的核心價值,以及要維護立法權的重要性。只有本黨團"},{"start":612.133,"end":630.541,"text":"案,我們有提出法庭之友的意見,那麼向憲法法院來表達我們對於捍衛維護立法的核心價值來做說明。那就這個部分我也希望未來只要是司法院在審理相關的法律的這個"},{"start":632.583,"end":643.281,"text":"是否合憲的解釋的時候我希望我們的立法院都能夠勇於認識積極的去表達我們立法委員的意見謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151752","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151752","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15ffebf364ff177bd920df1bb4ac2af973c68e374cd8c4bed0c4fb32c93a0cb95a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:37:09 - 11:47:58","影片長度":"00:10:49","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":649,"end_time":"2024-04-25T11:47:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T11:37:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":714,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時37分）謝謝主席。有請次長、還有董事長，謝謝。"],["主席：好，有請王次長、胡董事長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長好。很多事情要問之前，我想先給公視一個非常非常棒的肯定，而且可能大家都沒有注意到這個節目，這個節目非常好看，「女孩上場2」是在客語臺播出，這裡面不是只有講客語這件事情令人感到亮眼，而是這裡面讓大量的女性運動員直接上場演出，而且這裡面還直指了非常多我們在教育及文化委員會一直關心的體壇狀況，包含合約的問題，包含罷賽的這些問題。我非常非常佩服製作單位，也非常佩服客臺的決心，願意讓這樣節目在網路上。要不要讓次長或者是公司董事長說明一下？我覺得像這樣的節目要多做，然後被更多人看見。"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：就這樣？好，那我們就繼續推廣像這樣的節目，可是用這樣節目的心情，我們來看公視如何看待兒少。我想先問一個題目，請問次長或者是董事長，兒少在你們的心中是0歲到幾歲？"],["王次長時思：以目前公視的規劃來說，其實是0到18歲。"],["陳委員培瑜：18歲，這是公視的規劃。"],["王次長時思：但是有分不同層，我們一般做兒少節目的統計大概就到12歲。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，沒錯，這是最大的問題，就是大部分在製作兒少節目的人，不管是剛剛張雅琳委員問的，他們可能過往是做成人節目，或者是你現在問現場的每一個大人，到底對兒少的想像是到幾歲，大部分真的都到12歲，也就是說，青少年是被自動排擠在外面的。可是剛剛林宜瑾委員也有提到，聯合國的定義其實是到18歲，所以當我們心裡面想的是零到18歲的小孩，面對數位世代小孩的樣貌，其實我們是陌生的。我們跟教育部、跟衛福部對話有關孩子們自殺死因的時候，有非常非常多專家都告訴我們，現在這個世代的大人其實對數位世代的兒童是非常、非常、非常陌生的。如果用這個認知往下看，我們想要快速地跟董事長，也跟次長討論，我們如何回到一個全然去觀看兒童、認識兒童的角度，看所有後續你們還要徵案的節目、還要製作的節目？","我們之前一直在跟公視談產業領頭羊這件事情，我們也非常感謝在史部長任內要成立兒童頻道臺，可是剛剛有一句話葉委員沒有讓次長講完，我想要請教次長，剛剛您說現在單臺的頻道，這個並不是趨勢，後續要怎麼發展？因為剛剛葉委員沒有讓您講完，我想要聽聽看次長您的看法。"],["王次長時思：應該是經營多平台。"],["陳委員培瑜：多平台。"],["王次長時思：對，因為看起來整體的收視習慣，鎖定在單一電視頻道的習慣確實在改變。"],["陳委員培瑜：確實是困難的。對，沒錯，連BBC都把自己的兒童節目下架，他們只放在網路上！所以我相信我們臺灣做這個決定，可能是彌補過去我們來不及做的事情，可是我覺得次長已經講到關鍵，我相信後續很多委員的關心也會放在這裡，即多頻道這件事情上。","我們往下看關於自製這件事情，其實剛剛在你們給我們的報告中，你們說要調整，變成六百多個小時。我們之前一直跟公共電視提到這件事情，我們看到一個很大的問題，我們跟你們索資，你們在3月7號提供給我們有關113年兒少內容產製暨平台工作計畫，你們給我們的報告裡面告訴我們，預計要產製362個小時，可是我們看整個小公視的計畫，它其實一年365天，一天20個小時，總計7,300個小時。如同剛剛次長說的，它在首播之後，一直重播、一直重播、一直重播，這也是其他單臺的狀態，我們可以想像。我們來看，第一年自製節目只占總時數的4.95%，不到5%，如果剛剛你說是六百多個小時，那就是不到10%，可是再扣掉重播，我們可以想見這個數字，其實國人是不會滿意的，怎麼說？在1月29號公視徵案完畢以後，一樣是公視給我們的資料，你們告訴我們，現在實際已經徵案並且成功發出沒有廢標的案子，目前是104.5小時，一樣回到小公視的整個時數，不到3%、不到2%。我們當然知道有重播的需求，首播完之後……，可是我們還是覺得自製節目的量能一定出現了問題，因為大家都一直罵6億這件事情，可是我們幫你們把成本結構看完，其實放在製作節目大概只有四億多，我應該沒有記錯，對嗎？"],["王次長時思：四億多沒錯。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，四億多，所以從四億多來看，應該後續還有很多新的節目要開案，對嗎？還包含你們把3個節目，包含有一個越南語的節目，然後還有一個什麼節目廢標，你們後續要自製，對不對？"],["王次長時思：因為公視還是會自製，也會購置國內的節目。"],["陳委員培瑜：我相信你們還會買外片，也就是說，買外片這件事情，我覺得大家都可以理解，可以想像，畢竟在第一年這麼快的時間內……"],["王次長時思：購買國內的也有。"],["陳委員培瑜：要壓縮出公視多的人力去做這件事情，我覺得太可怕了，我必須要先幫公視的同仁說話。我知道你們過往在製作很多節目的量能上已經非常的緊縮，但是在目前這個兒童台不能新增加人力的狀況下，我相信線上的同仁應該都可能快要爆炸，對嗎？好不容易擠出這些時數。可是我相信國人還是對公視兒童台要開臺這件事情是有期待的，所以我們把這個時數算出來，我們都覺得很恐怖。","如果讓圓餅圖來表現這7,300個小時，已經徵案的部分目前才1.4%，然後你們目前開出來的預計時數也才4.7%。對我們來說，公視可不可以更積極的告訴國人，我們這個四億多的製作經費，未來將提供更多自製節目這件事情我們有多少的人力提升？多少的預算投入？多少的比例？然後我們預計達到多少績效？"],["王次長時思：我想公視應該可以提供這樣子的報告給國人參考。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們是壓一個月內有機會嗎？"],["王次長時思：好，公視可以在一個月內提供。"],["陳委員培瑜：包含今年度所有的節目，有機會到來年的規劃嗎？"],["王次長時思：來年的規劃，是不是再給公視比較長的時間？"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那我們就一個月內希望可以收到今年度的規劃節目報告，可以嗎？好，我相信不是只有我們辦公室，所有教文委員會的委員都會關心。","再來，就關於人才培育的部分，我們在你們的報告裡面……我們先說去年10月非常感謝林楚茵委員、陳亭妃委員，我們一起辦了座談會，公視有派人出席嗎？我有點忘記了。有非常多產業界的人提出來關於人才培育這件事情，在你們回復我們辦公室的報告裡面，你們說你們確實在兒童台會做兒少影音人才培育計畫，這是你們的回復，我們來看一下，你們說要提供有薪實作的工作機會，還要跟公視資深兒少製作人員從實務中學習，還要結合研習，師法慕尼黑雙年影展國際性觀摩的經驗，還要策劃工作坊進行觀影研究，引進這麼多、這麼多。","我想問一下，這個實際的人才培育在公共電視的心裡頭，在兒童頻道這件事情到底是怎麼想的？然後我們還看到你們告訴我們說要做這個，你們在3月28、29號做的這個論壇裡面，看起來好像也有人才培育的痕跡在裡頭，可是我們其實看不到太具體的計畫。對我們來說，剛剛所講的那些事情，在公視的眼裡，你們到底怎麼看待人才培育這件事情？我相信史部長當時劃了6億做頻道臺這件事情，他想的不是只有自製節目，而是如何提升人才量能，然後讓兒童節目產業鏈斷鏈二、三十年這件事情得到彌補。我們非常好奇，其實產業界的學生、老師，或是已經在線上的工作人員大家都想問，產業人才的培訓如何藉由兒童臺開臺這件事情，把臺灣有機會、有量能、有能力做兒童節目的人拉在一起，所以我們很想問這件事情。我現在投影片上寫的其實是你們提供給我們的資料，可是我剛剛說的，我們其實看不到更多具體的細部規劃。"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，整個公視在兒少影音產出的人才培育上面，目前的計畫採取的其實就是共製、共作、孵育、陪伴的方法，當然也有補助，然後也有徵案，但是就整體來說，因為在現在的基礎下面，整體的量能是缺乏的，公視幾乎是擁有臺灣最重要的製作兒少影音節目的人才跟製作團隊……"],["陳委員培瑜：沒錯、沒錯，我們等一下會談到其他頻道也是有……"],["王次長時思：所以希望透過這個技術的內容來移轉。"],["陳委員培瑜：我覺得大家要看到的是更具體的人才培育的部分，好不好？因為相關預算如果也是有在裡頭……，除了我剛剛說四億多的製作費用之外，其實6億還有編到其他的費用去。除非在人才培育，其實計畫預算並沒有去支持，那我覺得應該要回來跟立法院討論這個預算的問題，所以可不可以給我們更具體的人才規劃跟期程？"],["王次長時思：我們再請公視提出。"],["陳委員培瑜：有沒有機會一個月內給我們相關報告？目前，既然你們有節目製作量能的規劃，有機會在一個月內完成，那人才培育量能應該要搭配並行，如同剛剛次長說的，人才培育是跟著節目實作不是嗎？"],["王次長時思：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，那一個月內……"],["王次長時思：目前的規劃是這樣。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，一樣麻煩提供給教育及文化委員會。"],["王次長時思：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：公視在報告裡面還提到要做多元語言節目，這件事情我們來看一下，我們調出不同臺──臺語臺、客家臺的兒少節目，相關的時數我們可以看得出來，客家電視臺近三年的產製其實已經非常非常辛苦了。你們告訴我們說，預計禮拜一到禮拜五的帶狀節目會去拿客臺、臺語臺、原民臺等四臺合製的節目來做多元語言節目的計畫，可是有沒有機會公視兒童臺自製自己的兒童節目？因為我們可以想像……"],["王次長時思：公視還是會自製。"],["陳委員培瑜：打開客臺、打開原民臺、打開臺語臺的受眾，跟專門打開兒童臺絕對不會是同樣的受眾，有沒有機會為全新的受眾、全新的想像去做專屬於兒童臺自己的多元語言節目？"],["王次長時思：有，公視還是會製作。"],["陳委員培瑜：當然你們還是可以放到客臺去播，對嗎？或是放到臺語臺去播？有沒有機會是自己製作新的？"],["王次長時思：公視有自製的計畫，包括它現在其實有製作越南語新住民節目的計畫……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個我們也有看到，但是因為廢標了嘛！公視說要自製嘛！對不對？"],["王次長時思：公視有自製。"],["陳委員培瑜：六十幾集，我有看到。"],["王次長時思：原本就有自製的計畫，65集。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，這個部分如果已經在規劃中，是不是也可以一個月內給我們相關報告？"],["王次長時思：可以請公視提供。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。我沒有時間了，好，沒關係，謝謝主席，謝謝。"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員，次長請回。","我們現在先來處理臨時提案，今天有委員提出臨提案1案，請宣讀。","放眼國際，日本NHK年經費1976億、英國BBC 1835億、韓國KBS 329億，我國公視所獲捐贈經費雖已由9億提升至23億，相較之下仍顯拮据。我國公廣集團，有許多障礙須一一突破，其中，華視定位就是目前最大且顯眼的一個。","華視資產如何活化？附負擔捐贈以及民股買回如何落實？鑒於此些問題存在已久，相關進度卻仍如原地踏步，文化部應於兩個月內提出具體實踐計畫，並承諾華視企業工會如下訴求：","一、民股買回、落實附負擔捐贈，完成公共化經營定位後，再依據發展需求，規劃資產活化事宜。","二、華視資產應優先應用於本業經營，提升節目自製比例。","三、資產活化政策規畫應開放員工參與，並保障員工工作權。","四、資產活化應注重公廣集團形象，朝公益教育規劃發展。","五、不動產只租不賣、租賃對象以影視傳播產業為原則、不得因資產活化目的，增加現金借貸、活化作為不得變更華視本業經營現址。","提案人：林宜瑾　　","連署人：張雅琳　　吳沛憶　　陳秀寳　　"],["主席：好，次長。"],["王次長時思：我們建議希望可以修改第二段後面的文字內容，我大概說明一下文字內容，第二段是「華視資產如何活化？附負擔捐贈以及民股買回如何落實？」後面我們希望改成「鑒於此問題存在已久，無法強制民股釋出，而公視已為最大股東，文化部應督促公視於兩個月內就以下訴求，提出說明」，是不是可以改變成這樣的文字？"],["主席：好，OK，其他委員有沒有意見？好，沒有意見，我們就修正通過。"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員。"],["主席：這個提案如果有委員想補簽，議事人員會詳細登載在議事錄，補簽在這裡。","我們接下來繼續進行質詢，請何欣純委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","葉元之","陳培瑜","何欣純","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","范雲","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","林月琴","陳冠廷","羅智強"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫─ 公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.59096875,"end":15.285968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.67909375,"end":10.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.68284375,"end":14.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.99471875,"end":17.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.20534375,"end":18.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.67346875,"end":61.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.69284375,"end":58.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.063468750000006,"end":62.687843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.29534375,"end":71.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.59346875,"end":200.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.36784375000002,"end":167.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.56909375,"end":246.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.03159375,"end":239.26784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.16096875000002,"end":282.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.17659375,"end":331.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.20034375,"end":295.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.17034375000003,"end":297.01409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.95784375,"end":307.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.52346875,"end":341.07471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.76659375,"end":356.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.59534375000004,"end":363.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.59846875000005,"end":365.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.64471875000004,"end":370.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.76284375,"end":367.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.10784375000003,"end":384.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.79346875000005,"end":388.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.93221875,"end":437.22846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.32534375,"end":494.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.02534375000005,"end":566.6597187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":520.5065937500001,"end":523.6115937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":525.65346875,"end":526.3959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":546.03846875,"end":547.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.1884687500001,"end":558.9140937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.9978437500001,"end":563.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":567.26721875,"end":642.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.11346875,"end":606.9909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.46596875,"end":618.9890937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":625.77284375,"end":626.3803437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":633.19784375,"end":634.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.61534375,"end":636.5053437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":640.8759687500001,"end":641.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":642.63096875,"end":648.8915937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.59,"text":"好 謝謝主席 那有請次長還有董事長 謝謝好 有請王次長還有吳董事長 謝謝委員好好 次長好 我很多事情要問之前我想先給公視一個非常非常棒的肯定而且可能大家都沒有注意到這個節目 來下一頁"},{"start":27.013,"end":43.282,"text":"這個節目非常好看《女孩上場2》是在客語台播出這裡面不是只有講客語這件事情令人感到亮眼而是這裡面它讓大量的女性運動員直接上場演出而且這裡面還直指了非常多我們在教育文化委員會一直關心的體談的狀況包含"},{"start":45.743,"end":46.263,"text":"謝謝委員我想先問一個題目來下一頁"},{"start":73.183,"end":86.3,"text":"請問兒少就次長或是董事長在你們的心中兒少是0歲到幾歲以目前公視的規劃來說其實是0到18歲18歲這是公視的規劃但是有分不同層那我們一般做兒少節目的統計大概就到12歲對沒錯"},{"start":87.882,"end":114.476,"text":"這是最大的問題就是大部分在製作兒少節目的人不管是剛剛參加林委員問的他們可能過往是做成人節目或者是你現在問現場的每一個大人到底對兒少的想像是到幾歲大部分人真的都到12歲也就是說青少年是被自動排擠在外面的可是我們就剛剛林委員也有提到就聯合國的定義他其實是到18歲所以當我們心裡面想的是0到18歲的小孩而且數位世代小孩的樣貌其實我們是陌生的"},{"start":115.416,"end":130.053,"text":"我們在跟教育部在跟衛福部對話孩子們的自殺死因的時候有非常非常多專家都告訴我們現在這個世代的大人其實對數位世代的兒童是非常非常非常陌生的所以如果用這個認知來往下看來下一頁"},{"start":130.774,"end":133.176,"text":"我們想要快速跟董事長也跟次長討論我們如何回到一個全然去觀看兒童認識兒童的角度來看所有後續你們還要爭案的節目還要製作的節目來下一頁我們之前一直在跟公視談產業領頭羊這件事情我們也非常感謝在史部長任內他要成立兒童頻道台"},{"start":150.146,"end":153.769,"text":"可是剛剛有一句話葉委員沒有讓次長講完我這邊想要請教次長剛剛您說現在單台的頻道這個並不是趨勢後續要怎麼發展因為剛剛葉委員沒有讓您講完我想要聽聽看次長您的看法應該是經營多平台因為看起來整體的收視習慣鎖定在單一的電視頻道的習慣確實是困難的"},{"start":173.863,"end":200.576,"text":"對沒錯連BBC都把他們自己的兒童節目下架他們只放在網路上那所以我相信我們台灣做這個決定可能是彌補過去我們來不及做的事情可是我覺得次長你已經講到關鍵我相信後續很多委員的關心也會放在這裡多頻道的這件事情上那我們往下看喔我們來看到關於自治這件事情其實剛剛在你們給我們的報告你們說要調整嘛變成600多個小時我們之前一直跟公共電視提到這件事情來下一頁"},{"start":201.636,"end":230.242,"text":"我們看到一個很大的問題這個是我們跟你們索資然後你們在3月7號提供給我們你們113年兒少內容產製及平台工作計畫你們給我們的報告裡面告訴我們你們預計要產製362個小時可是我們看整個小公視的計畫它其實一年365天一天20個小時總計7300個小時如同剛剛次長說的它在首播之後一直重播一直重播一直重播這也是其他單台的狀態我們可以想像所以我們來看第一年"},{"start":230.962,"end":246.047,"text":"字字節目只佔總時數的4.95%不到5%可是我剛剛說你說是600多個小時那就是不到10%可是再扣掉重播那我們可以想見這個數字其實國人是不會滿意的怎麼說我們來看下一頁"},{"start":248.208,"end":261.977,"text":"在1月29日公視徵案完畢以後一樣是公視給我們的資料你們告訴我們現在實際已經徵案並且成功發出案子沒有廢標的案子目前是104.5小時一樣回到小公視的整個時數不到3%不到2%"},{"start":264.298,"end":280.969,"text":"我們當然知道有重播這個的需求然後首播完之後可是我們還是覺得這個這次節目的量能一定出現了問題一定就大家看到因為大家都一直罵6億6億這件事情可是我們幫你們把成本結構看完其實放在製作節目大概只有4億多我應該沒有記錯 對嗎"},{"start":283.406,"end":283.646,"text":"施毅東施毅東"},{"start":305.776,"end":331.408,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":331.608,"end":356.155,"text":"如果讓圓餅圖來表現這個7300個小時至於已經整來目前才1.4然後你們目前開出來的預計時數也才4.7%下一頁所以對我們來說公視可不可以更積極的告訴國人我們這個4億多的製作經費未來將提供更多製作節目這件事情我們有多少的人力提升多少的預算投入多少的比例然後我們預計達到多少績效"},{"start":357.642,"end":384.355,"text":"我想公視應該可以提供這樣子的報告給委員參考那我們是壓一個月內有機會嗎?一個月內所以包含把今年度所有的節目那有機會到來年的規劃嗎?來年的規劃是不是在給公視比較長的時間好那我們就一個月內希望可以收到今年度的規劃節目報告可以嗎?好那我相信是所有教文委員會不是只有我們辦公室我相信所有教文化委員會的委員都會關心好來下一個"},{"start":386.056,"end":405.012,"text":"再來就關於人才培育的部分來下一頁我們在你們的報告裡面我們先說去年10月非常感謝還有林楚瑛委員還有陳廷飛委員我們一起辦了座談會那公視有派人出席嗎我有點忘記了有非常多產業界的人在提出來關於人才培育這件事情在你們給我們的報告裡面來往下"},{"start":406.673,"end":421.663,"text":"在你們給我們回覆辦公室的報告裡面你們說你們確實在兒童台會做兒少影音人才培育計畫這是你們的回覆我們來看一下你們說要提供有心實作的工作機會還要跟公視資深的兒少製作人員從實務中學習還要結合研習還要施法慕尼黑雙年影展國際性觀摩經驗還要策劃工作方觀影研究引進這麼多這麼多我想問一下這個實際的人才培育在公共電視的心裡頭在兒童頻道這件事情你到底是怎麼想的來"},{"start":436.633,"end":436.893,"text":"陳培瑜議員"},{"start":462.585,"end":488.507,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":488.707,"end":515.406,"text":"但是我現在投影片上寫的其實是你們提供給我們的資料可是我剛剛說我們其實看不到更多具體的細部規劃跟委員做說明因為整個公視在兒少影音的產出的人才培育上面目前的計畫採取的其實就是共治、共作的方法、賦育、陪伴的方法當然也有補助然後也有徵案那但是就整體來說因為在現在的這個基礎下面整體的量能是缺乏的"},{"start":515.686,"end":545.409,"text":"那公視幾乎是擁有台灣最重要的製作兒少影音節目的人才跟製作團隊沒錯沒錯我們等一下會談到其他頻道也是有這個技術的內容那我想我覺得大家要看到是更具體的人才培育的部分好不好因為相關預算如果也是有在裡頭因為除了我剛剛說4億多的製作費用之外其實6億還有編到其他的費用去所以除非在人才培育其實計畫預算並沒有去支持那我覺得應該要回來跟立法院討論這個預算的問題所以可不可以給我們更具體的人才"},{"start":545.589,"end":545.629,"text":"主席"},{"start":568.031,"end":586.631,"text":"公視在報告裡面還提到要做多元語言節目這件事情我們來看一下這個是我們調出不同台就是台語台客家台的兒少節目我們來看下一頁相關的時數我們可以看得出來客家電視台近三年的產製其實已經非常非常辛苦了再來下一頁"},{"start":587.432,"end":608.398,"text":"再來看到那你們告訴我們說你們預計禮拜一到禮拜五的帶狀節目會去拿課台、台語台、原民台四台合制的節目來做所謂多元語言節目的計畫符合可是有沒有機會公視兒童台自己有機會自製自己的兒童節目因為我們可以想像打開課台打開原民台打開台語台的受眾跟專門打開兒童台他絕對不會是同樣的受眾"},{"start":612.499,"end":633.899,"text":"有沒有機會為全新的受眾、全新的想像去做專屬於兒童台自己的多元語言節目?當然你們還是可以放到課台去播,對嗎?還是放到台裡台去播,有沒有機會是自己製作的?新的?公視有自製的計畫,包括它現在其實有製作越南語的新著名節目的計畫。好,這個我們也有看到,但是因為廢標了嘛,公視說要自製嘛,對不對?60幾集我也看到。65集。"},{"start":637.422,"end":637.502,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151751","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151751","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce1511fa6b0b0e88d134c97d93183120460dc68e374cd8c4bed07aa36946618fe5905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:34:31 - 11:43:42","影片長度":"00:09:11","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議（事由：邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n【4月22日、24日及25日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":13,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-13"},"duration":551,"end_time":"2024-04-25T11:43:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T11:34:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":784,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（11時34分）有請勞動部部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：請許部長。"],["許部長銘春：麥委員好。"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好，想要請教一下，我們政府已經在2022年禁止仲介收取仲介費，也建立了直聘的管道，請問部長認為我們國家直聘的移工政策是否完善？"],["許部長銘春：我們直聘成立以後有持續精進，讓它能夠簡化，因為我們現在的移工引進是採多元，就是雇主可以使用直聘，也可以委託仲介，也可以自己引進，因為一開始開放的時候是由仲介引進，所以是大家的習慣。直聘成立到現在也一段時間，或許大家會認為成效不是那麼優，但我們也持續在檢討，希望能夠讓大家便於使用、簡政便民。"],["麥委員玉珍：是的，所以我們覺得還有很大的空間要進步。"],["許部長銘春：這部分跟委員報告，我們的困難不只是我們自己國內的制度要怎麼簡化、精簡，另外就是來源國這邊，像越南、印尼就是比較不願意採直聘，所以在配合度上比較消極。"],["麥委員玉珍：應該是沒有不願意採直聘，是因為我們沒有一個窗口去採直聘。"],["許部長銘春：沒有！窗口都有，我們有直聘中心。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，窗口也是仲介，不是政府對政府的。"],["許部長銘春：沒有、沒有，委員，我可以帶你去看我們的跨國勞動力事務中心，就在中華路那邊，我們有一個中心、有單一窗口。"],["麥委員玉珍：中心是在臺灣嗎？"],["許部長銘春：在臺灣。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，但是我說的直聘是國外要跟老闆去直聘，沒有這個完整的移工資料，想要過來的……"],["許部長銘春：外國也要成立一個窗口。"],["麥委員玉珍：對。"],["許部長銘春：委員，外國也從那個窗口跟我們的窗口來對就好，來源國不成立，那我們……"],["麥委員玉珍：但是如果那麼完整的話，剛才你為什麼說還沒那麼完善呢？有那麼完整，應該是很完善啦！所以就不會造成不是很完善。"],["許部長銘春：不是，我所謂的不夠完善是譬如我們國內端的直聘部分，可能還有很多人認為程序比較繁瑣、書表太多，這部分我覺得不夠完善、不夠便民、不夠友善，要檢討。但是國外端有它的問題……"],["麥委員玉珍：好，所以我們部長就是要更完善，要有一套的措施。希望建立移工的資料庫，讓想要聘任的雇主都很容易找到移工，移工也很容易直接找到雇主，這樣就會減少仲介的收費。"],["許部長銘春：對。"],["麥委員玉珍：剛才你有說為什麼雇主比較不願意直聘，是因為不夠完善、不夠簡化，也不好找到，所以雖然你說有，但是為什麼大家沒有去應用？因為我們臺灣希望是政府對政府，或者是有這樣一個完善的窗口，像日本……"],["許部長銘春：我們有窗口，對方可能沒有窗口。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，你們有窗口，但是沒有達到這樣的效果，變成還是一樣透過仲介，大部分還是透過仲介。日本、韓國現在都缺工，所以像我們越南到韓國，而我嫁來臺灣，我就可以推薦我的家人過去那邊工作，有出事情，我要負責，要逃跑，我要負責，有可能因為我的家人、我推薦的人逃跑，我就會失去臺灣拿身分證的資格，所以我們希望的是，我們要如何真正可以去管理還有協助，不只是設在那邊好看的而已，但都用不到，這樣也不好，對不對？變成在花政府的錢。所以我們希望，部長都說我們有這樣一個優化的聘僱環境，讓我們的企業可以去應用，也讓國外的移工可以透過這樣的方式，而不用透過仲介，雖然有這樣子，可不可以請部長大概在兩週內給我一個書面報告？完整說明我們有這樣的機制。"],["許部長銘春：好，沒問題。"],["麥委員玉珍：有這樣完整的制度，讓我們可以幫你去做宣傳，才能讓我們的企業應用得到。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝委員。"],["麥委員玉珍：不是政府放在那一邊說我有啊、我有啊！因為我有，但你用不用是你們家的事情。"],["許部長銘春：不會啦！我們還是很努力在宣傳，希望大家來善用……"],["麥委員玉珍：你說有，但是為什麼雇主沒有想要去用？就是因為不便民嘛！才會造成這樣，現在如果有這樣子的機制，又有那麼好的環境的話，為什麼失聯移工就達到八萬多人？這個部分請教一下部長，你是如何去解決在臺灣的這8萬移工，如果他們生病了，傳染的是全國的人，誰要負責？你有沒有什麼策略去解決逃跑移工？因為我們有失聯移工的申請問題，還有雇主有時候因為兩方恩怨而去爆說他逃跑，就是讓他去休假兩天，但是又去爆說他失聯，這也有，所以這個地方需要我們去協助。針對移工失聯的部分，部長有沒有什麼解決的方案？"],["許部長銘春：報告委員，因為時間的關係，我簡單講。第一個，失聯為什麼會突然暴增到八萬多？是因為這3年的疫情，邊境管制造成他們進不來，進不來、國內又缺工，所以這個造成……"],["麥委員玉珍：進不來、缺工，為什麼還要逃跑呢？缺工就不用再逃跑、有加班就不會再逃跑嘛！一定是有問題才會逃跑嘛！"],["許部長銘春：不是有問題啦！不一定是雇主，有時候是移工希望追求更高的薪資啦！這個因素很多，如經濟因素……"],["麥委員玉珍：因為疫情導致大家都缺工，所以工作更多，不會逃跑啦！"],["許部長銘春：其實針對移工，我們在去年正常開放以後已經有降了……"],["麥委員玉珍：這樣你是保證現在已經沒有疫情了，所以移工逃跑率就不會增加了嗎？"],["許部長銘春：不是，委員，我跟你說……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以在疫情時逃跑？"],["許部長銘春：疫情之前，我們的失聯率已經下來了。"],["麥委員玉珍：因為時間的關係，最後一個問題，主席給我一分鐘。關於地震的時候，大家看一下簡報上的照片，看護工要去照顧雇主，這位移工因為地震還爬上去保護他的雇主，但是家庭看護、家庭幫傭是沒有勞保的，他們的保障是沒有勞保的，這個部分誰來保障他們？這個部分我們請部長一定要去重視，因為家庭看護工是沒有保障的，看護工並沒有這樣子的保障，而且現在什麼都漲，薪水也有漲，但是看護工的薪水沒有漲，所以很多看護工的……"],["許部長銘春：本來1萬7，我們調整到2萬，有漲啦！"],["麥委員玉珍：對，他們說漲一點點，還有他們說，比如他到這個家裡照顧1個小時，但是他從另外一個場轉場到這邊半個小時，等一下他要回去的時候就1個小時，但是他只有領1個小時的工資。對於我們的看護工，不管是臺灣還是外籍的保障，這個部分請我們部長要重視，才能保障勞工的權益，以上報告，謝謝。"],["許部長銘春：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員的發言。","接下來請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":424,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-13","speakers":["黃秀芳","陳昭姿","林月琴","王育敏","陳菁徽","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","王正旭","蘇清泉","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","林淑芬","黃國昌","麥玉珍","洪孟楷","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","牛煦庭","張啓楷","吳春城","何欣純","陳瑩","劉建國","林倩綺","廖偉翔","楊曜","盧縣一","翁曉玲","羅智強"],"page_start":347,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請勞動部部長、法務部、原住民族委員會、內政部、衛生福利部就「就業服務法上路逾三十\n年，針對就業促進、歧視禁止、外國勞動力權益保障等面向進行全面檢視」進行專題報告，並備\n質詢","agenda_id":"1133401_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.552218750000002,"end":16.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.134093750000002,"end":15.960968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.06159375,"end":20.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.06971875,"end":23.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.01034375,"end":42.353468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.353468750000005,"end":42.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.87221875,"end":43.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.90596875,"end":44.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.766593750000006,"end":52.140968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.09909375,"end":50.672843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.018468750000004,"end":59.852843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.90346875,"end":80.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.80721875,"end":85.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.74784375,"end":89.75534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.84409375,"end":95.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.09284375,"end":90.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.93159375,"end":109.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.11971875,"end":108.68909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.97159375000001,"end":122.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.83596875,"end":116.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.61596875000001,"end":117.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.57784375000001,"end":123.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.55596875,"end":127.94346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.31471875,"end":129.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.34846875,"end":142.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.40284375000002,"end":131.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.97534375,"end":146.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.09721875,"end":143.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.97846875000002,"end":158.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.38346875000002,"end":148.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.61409375000002,"end":173.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.29534375,"end":232.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.55659375000002,"end":177.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.77534375000002,"end":178.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.78534375,"end":196.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.42721875,"end":220.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.78534375,"end":223.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.00721875000002,"end":246.45659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.11471875,"end":248.09346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.43096875,"end":299.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.47346875,"end":301.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":301.82346875,"end":314.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.34659375,"end":303.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.07971875000004,"end":310.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.94846875,"end":314.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.27721875000003,"end":322.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.27284375,"end":317.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.32284375,"end":353.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.27096875,"end":372.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.22596875000005,"end":381.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.50721875000005,"end":390.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.94971875000005,"end":385.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.70846875,"end":390.21471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.43409375000005,"end":397.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.16784375000003,"end":393.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.09534375000004,"end":400.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.72784375000003,"end":404.33909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.68096875000003,"end":413.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.11909375000005,"end":408.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.08471875000004,"end":431.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.89034375,"end":414.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.98659375000005,"end":424.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.42846875000004,"end":451.99409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.00534375,"end":438.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.46659375,"end":464.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":465.03846875000005,"end":472.95284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.64471875000004,"end":478.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.19659375000003,"end":498.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.09221875000003,"end":515.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.5834687500001,"end":517.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":517.9753437500001,"end":524.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":524.55659375,"end":551.0334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":551.0334687500001,"end":551.2022187499999}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.269,"end":15.519,"text":"麥玉珍委員發言。好,有請勞動部部長,謝謝主席。麥委好。"},{"start":22.073,"end":26.895,"text":"請問部長認為我們國家職聘的移工政策是否完善?"},{"start":44.886,"end":73.043,"text":"我們當然職聘成立以後那我們有持續在精進讓他能夠解放因為我們現在的移工的引進我們是採多元就是說僱主他可以來使用職聘他也可以委託仲介他也可以自己引進那很多的因為一開始就是用開放的時候就是仲介來引進所以大家的習慣那職聘成立到現在也一段時間那當然或許大家會認為"},{"start":73.863,"end":75.546,"text":"請勞動部長：立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生福利部長、法務部、原住民族委員會及內政部、內政部、"},{"start":82.017,"end":105.557,"text":"所以我們就覺得就是還有很大的空間要進步這個部分其實也跟我們報告我們也困難也不只說我們自己的國內制度要怎麼來把它簡化、精簡另外就是來源國這邊像越南、印尼他們就是比較不願意採資聘"},{"start":108.1,"end":118.051,"text":"應該是沒有不願意採職聘,是因為我們沒有一個窗口去採職聘。對,窗口也是中介啊。我可以帶你去跨國事務中心,看我們的外國人事務中心,就在中華路那邊,我們有一個中心喔。"},{"start":128.402,"end":131.923,"text":"但是如果是那麼完整的話 剛才你為什麼說還沒有那麼完善呢 有那麼完整應該是有很完善啊"},{"start":155.407,"end":170.693,"text":"所以就不會造成說不是很完善我所謂不夠完善就是說譬如說我們國內端的部分可能還有很多人認為程序比較繁瑣書表太多那這部分我覺得不夠完善不夠辨明"},{"start":171.613,"end":178.297,"text":"所以這樣就我們部長這邊就是要徘徊上要有一套的措施嘛希望就是說把就是移工的資料庫還有我們的僱主想要聘任的他們都是很容易就是找到移工移工也很容易跟僱主直接這樣子的話就會減少說仲介送費嘛所以說為什麼剛才你有說嘛為什麼僱主"},{"start":199.19,"end":215.902,"text":"比較不願意呢是因為不夠完善不夠簡化也找到的也不好找所以你說有但是為什麼大家沒有去應用還有說因為我們臺灣是希望就是政府對政府或者是有這樣子的一個完善的窗口"},{"start":218.223,"end":230.068,"text":"我們有窗口啦,可能台灣沒有窗口但是沒有打到這樣的效果嘛變成還是一樣透過仲介嘛大部分還是透過仲介嘛就像日本、韓國日本、韓國的話"},{"start":233.169,"end":247.636,"text":"都是應用現在缺工所以日本韓國像我們越南到韓國像我嫁來台灣我就可以推薦我的家人過去那一邊工作有出事情我要負責"},{"start":248.817,"end":263.138,"text":"要逃跑我要負責有可能因為我的家人我推薦的人逃跑我就會失去台灣拿身份證的資格所以我們希望的是說我們要如何就是真正的可以去管理還有協助"},{"start":264.7,"end":290.132,"text":"不只是說設在那邊,好看的用不著,這樣也不好,對不對,所以變成花政府的錢。所以我們希望說,我們部長都說,就是我們有這樣子的一個優化的拼顧的環境,讓我們的企業可以去應用,也要讓說國外的移工他可以透過這樣子,就不用透過仲介嘛,所以事然有這樣子的話,都請部長在"},{"start":292.253,"end":299.508,"text":"大概兩週內可不可以給我就是一個書面的報告完整的是說我們有這樣子的"},{"start":300.526,"end":329.671,"text":"有這個機制有這樣子的的完整的讓我們可以幫你去做宣傳幫我們的企業才能應用的到不是政府放在那一邊說我有啊我有啊因為我有但是你用不用是您打的打擊這樣子就不行所以說你說有但是為什麼部主沒有沒有想要去用就是因為不便民嘛才會造成這樣嘛所以現在"},{"start":330.251,"end":348.481,"text":"如果是有這樣子的機制又那麼好的環境的話為什麼我們今年就逃跑移工四年移工就達到八萬多人所以這個部分我們請教一下我們的部長你是如何去解決說這八萬移工在臺灣"},{"start":350.962,"end":361.372,"text":"如果他們生病了,他們就傳染至全國的人,誰要負責?所以你覺得說有沒有什麼策略來去解決說逃跑移工?因為我們有失聯移工的申請問題,"},{"start":367.357,"end":389.962,"text":"還有我們的僱主有要去有時候就是為了兩個恩怨去報說他逃跑給他去休假兩天但是又去報他說失聯也有所以這個地方要我們可以去協助所以這個部分有沒有說移工失聯的部分部長有沒有什麼解決的方案"},{"start":390.502,"end":417.748,"text":"不好意思,因為時間有關係,我簡單講第一個,失聯為什麼會突然暴增到八萬多是因為這三年的疫情這個邊境管制他進不來,進不來國內又缺工,所以這個造成...進不來缺工為什麼還要逃跑呢?缺工就不用再逃跑嘛,有雜班就不會再逃跑嘛因為是有問題才會逃跑嘛,對不對?不是有問題啊,不一定是他有,不一定是顧著有時候說是移工希望追求更高的薪資啦"},{"start":418.428,"end":430.232,"text":"這個因素很多因為疫情大家都缺工所以工作很多不會去逃跑的我們其實針對這個移工的那個我們在去年喔 鎮長鎮長開放以後已經沒有疫情了所以我們的移工就逃跑力就不會掙扎了嗎不是不是我跟你講疫情逃跑然後最後一個問題因為時間的問題最後一個問題主席給我一分鐘最後一個問題我們關於就是現在"},{"start":446.478,"end":472.864,"text":"我們現在地震的時候是不是大家看一下我們是大家看這個照片是不是我們要去看護工的時候我們要去照顧這個移工因為地震他還爬上去保護他的僱主但是呢但是呢我們是家庭看護還有家庭幫傭是沒有勞保的"},{"start":474.224,"end":500.663,"text":"這個保障沒有勞保的所以這個部分的話誰來保障他們這個部分我們請部長一定要去尊重一定要去對因為在家庭看護工他沒有保障的這個部分所以呢我們希望說我們大家看護的病座沒有這樣子的保障還有我們最近我們是沒有保障還有說我們的"},{"start":501.944,"end":517.235,"text":"台灣的看護工也沒有...我們現在是不是我們台灣的看護工是不是現在我們都什麼都講我們薪水漲但是看護工的薪水沒有漲所以很多的看護工的...對,他們說漲的一點點還有他們就說比如說我來這邊這一家裡我照顧一個小時"},{"start":524.58,"end":550.152,"text":"但是呢我來這邊照顧一小時甚至我從另外一個場轉場到這邊半個小時等一下我要轉到要回去的時候就一個小時但是我只有領一個小時的工資這個也是對我們看護工不管是台灣還是我們外籍的保障所以這個部分的話請我們部長就是要重視才能保障我們的勞工的權利以上報告謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151750","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151750","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15ae524df059f3ff8420df1bb4ac2af973c68e374cd8c4bed06cd266f8d9728b055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"11:26:09 - 11:37:06","影片長度":"00:10:57","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":657,"end_time":"2024-04-25T11:37:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T11:26:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":601,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（11時26分）請次長。"],["主席：有請次長。"],["葉委員元之：次長好。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：今天我們是針對公視兒少臺的討論，基本上我們國家其實對於比如衛星頻道都有一定的規範，我現在就針對頻道的經營這方面跟次長請教。第一個，一般來說，我們對頻道都要求它的自製率，第二個，我們要求它的首播或重播率。公視成立兒童臺，我看到大概是要製作二百多個小時，二百多個小時可以撐起一個頻道嗎？理論上，二百多個小時，如果一天是24小時播放，又沒有重播的話，大概就只能播10天左右。所以你們現在節目的安排是怎麼樣？會不會造成重播率非常高？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，它其實是新製六百多小時，不是二百多小時，應該是之前提供的資料的計算基礎有一些落差，所以整體來講……"],["葉委員元之：我是按照你們提供的資料。"],["王次長時思：是，提供的資料計算基礎……"],["葉委員元之：所以是二百多小時，還是六百多小時？"],["王次長時思：六百多小時。"],["葉委員元之：六百多個小時，首播、重播的比例是怎麼樣？"],["王次長時思：讓公視來說明它的比例，謝謝。"],["徐總經理秋華：其實我們新製首播是六百多小時，但是我們一天大概只有4個小時是當日首播，它必須輪播，就是一天是4個小時的首播，但是我們是播20小時，所以另外的幾個時段是重播那4小時的節目，其實現在所有頻道都是這樣。"],["葉委員元之：所以是怎樣？所以只有4小時是首播？"],["徐總經理秋華：對。"],["葉委員元之：20小時是重播？"],["徐總經理秋華：現在其實就是當日節目的重播，目前各電視臺都是這樣。"],["葉委員元之：好，所以實際上以你們現在這種首播及重播率，如果按照我們政府對於衛星頻道的管制，是還滿差的。","再來，我們看到你們的報告裡面有提到臺灣是多語國家，總共有28個南島語言，按照你這邊寫的，光是新住民母語就超過30種，這麼多語言的情況之下，要讓兒童接觸到這些語言，請問一下，你會以哪些語言為主？時間上怎麼分配？"],["徐總經理秋華：我們每一天有一個母語的時段。"],["葉委員元之：每一天一個時段？"],["徐總經理秋華：對，每一天有個時段，就是有個帶狀，這個帶狀會分臺語節目、客語節目、原住民節目、新住民節目……"],["葉委員元之：混在一起？"],["徐總經理秋華：就是一條帶狀，每一天是不同的語種。"],["葉委員元之：每一天不同的語種？"],["徐總經理秋華：對。"],["葉委員元之：這樣有辦法達到你講的效果嗎？因為你現在講得一副你們公視要成為推廣多種語言非常重要的平臺，但是在這麼少的時數的情況之下，有辦法達到效果嗎？不要做那種好像蜻蜓點水式的、為了做而做。"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，為什麼是以帶狀的方式？主要的目的是建立收視習慣，所以在這條帶狀的節目上，其實就是臺灣不同族群使用不同的母語，至於4小時是新製播的節目，其他的時間是重播當日的節目，其實目前各頻道都是採取這樣的做法。"],["葉委員元之：那你的KPI怎麼計算？就是你們要達到什麼樣的效果，你們花這個錢做這個才值得？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，現在單一頻道的經營未來漸漸不會是最後的主流，所以現在選臺式、選看式的平臺經營會是我們接下來的方向。"],["葉委員元之：你回答我的問題，針對我的問題回答。你的KPI怎麼算？就是你現在花這個錢做這件事情，怎麼樣達到語言推廣，你是怎麼去衡量你的效果？"],["王次長時思：我們現在有兩個方向，第一個當然就是新製節目的成長，如112年到113年新製節目的成長。第二個部分……"],["葉委員元之：節目的成長是你花錢做節目，我的意思是就推廣這一塊，因為你做這個節目，目的應該是希望小朋友可以接觸，進而去接觸這個語言……"],["王次長時思：對，所以第二個就是流量……"],["葉委員元之：那你的KPI是怎麼算？"],["王次長時思：第二個就是流量的部分、收視部分的成長。"],["葉委員元之：流量……"],["王次長時思：流量指的就是……"],["葉委員元之：網路嗎？網路來計算嗎？"],["王次長時思：流量及收視兩種合併計算……"],["葉委員元之：你希望收視及流量達到多少？"],["王次長時思：我們有請公視提供一個他們評估的KPI。"],["葉委員元之：你現在就回答我嘛！你不能回答就叫公視回答。"],["王次長時思：公視現在提出來的計畫是成長30%以上。"],["葉委員元之：成長30%？"],["王次長時思：以上。"],["葉委員元之：那是以什麼為基礎？"],["王次長時思：成立兒少頻道之前。"],["葉委員元之：成立兒少頻道之前，那基礎……"],["王次長時思：兒少頻道之前它也有一些……"],["葉委員元之：沒有具體的數據嘛！"],["王次長時思：我們可以提供具體的數據……"],["葉委員元之：我問你的東西，好像都愛講不講的。"],["王次長時思：我們可以提供具體的數據給委員參考。"],["葉委員元之：現在這錢花了，要看到效果，對不對？又不是不支持你們，但你們連一個KPI都講不清楚，要怎麼支持？"],["王次長時思：因為之前公視並沒有兒少頻道。"],["葉委員元之：再來，現在因為少子化的關係，所以兒童市場其實也萎縮了。現在所謂的兒童頻道大概就有8個，兩個是自製頻道──momo及東森，現在公視又要投入這個市場，實際上你就是在既有的市場去跟人家搶，還是你有拓展市場？這也是你們要考量的問題。我請教一下，以過去的經驗來說，你們投資的最旗艦的節目是花多少錢？是哪個節目？"],["王次長時思：委員主要關心的是經費嗎？"],["葉委員元之：製作規模。"],["王次長時思：如果是經費的話，應該是妖果小學堂。"],["葉委員元之：那花多少錢？"],["王次長時思：經費的部分……"],["葉委員元之：製作規模。"],["林副理瓊芬：每集是180萬。"],["葉委員元之：每集180萬？"],["林副理瓊芬：對。"],["葉委員元之：總共幾集？"],["林副理瓊芬：現在總共做了13集。"],["葉委員元之：總共13集？"],["林副理瓊芬：對，之後還會有11集。"],["葉委員元之：請問投資報酬率多少？"],["林副理瓊芬：關於投資報酬率，它是一個動畫IP的養成，尤其是本土的原創IP，現在我們也有跟教育部合作安全教育的部分，包括交通安全、食藥安全，現在進入到學校，還在等孩子們更加地熟悉它，之後我們就可以……"],["葉委員元之：為什麼我會問這些問題？我不希望公視為了做而做。當初公視有3個頻道，現在要把1個頻道拿來做兒少節目，是不是因為也不知道幹什麼就來做兒少？到底有沒有評估過這個東西到底值不值得做？現在既有的市場已經有這麼多頻道，你現在做這個東西是不是只是跟人家競爭？包括你們提到要透過這個機會去培養製作人才，現在民間也有很多頻道在做這個事，所以你們是不是只是排擠既有的人才？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明……"],["葉委員元之：所以我覺得這些問題都是你們必須考慮的。然後再一個點就是，我希望公視拍很多有質感的節目，重點是要有人看，對於推廣，我不知道你們的規劃是什麼。而且現在不是只有國內的市場，應該是國際的市場也非常重要，海外推廣有相關的規劃嗎？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，公視來做兒少頻道及兒少節目，最核心的關鍵是臺灣要有自己的兒童節目，現在雖然民間的頻道也有，但是九成以上都是從國外外購的兒少節目，所以我們希望臺灣的小朋友有機會看到自己的內容，這是一個核心……"],["葉委員元之：沒有，我剛剛就舉了兩個，像momo或東森也有很多自製的節目。"],["王次長時思：如果依照統計的數據來看，九成以上其實都是外購的節目，第二……"],["葉委員元之：所以你希望培養國內的人才，對不對？"],["王次長時思：包括國內的人才及國內的節目，國內人才的部分……"],["葉委員元之：所以海外這塊你就放棄，是不是？"],["王次長時思：當然不是，我想……"],["葉委員元之：對，我現在在問海外規劃嘛。"],["王次長時思：在國際的部分，海外的規劃包括跟其他平臺業者的合作及上架，我想接下來也是公視努力的目標，至於國際規劃的詳細內容，我們可以提供給委員。"],["葉委員元之：再來，我聽說公視有一個標案是做logo的，總共花了上千萬做logo，有沒有這件事情？花上千萬找了一個廠商，請它規劃公視兒少臺的logo，然後是沒有上網招標的，有這件事情嗎？"],["徐總經理秋華：這個是用邀案的……"],["葉委員元之：邀案的？"],["徐總經理秋華：它是金馬整個視覺包裝的公司。"],["葉委員元之：是什麼廠商？"],["徐總經理秋華：Bito，金馬視覺的……"],["葉委員元之：上千萬，對不對？是用邀標的嘛？"],["徐總經理秋華：對。"],["葉委員元之：資料提供給我，好不好？"],["徐總經理秋華：好的，沒問題。"],["葉委員元之：因為這個很不尋常。"],["徐總經理秋華：因為它有credit。"],["葉委員元之：一般來說上千萬的標案都是公開招標，你們用邀標的，可見應該是有特別原因，是什麼特別原因？"],["徐總經理秋華：是，因為它過去的資歷、經歷……"],["葉委員元之：誰來判斷它的資歷跟經歷？"],["徐總經理秋華：其實它過去都是做金馬獎的整體視覺，其實我們看它的成果是非常好的，所以也希望經過我們跟他討論……"],["葉委員元之：好，你把細項列出，到底一千萬是怎麼分配，什麼樣的logo要花到1,000萬？我非常好奇。然後還有一個標案叫做「美國關鍵意見領袖合作案」大概花了350萬，這是要找美國網紅合作是不是？「美國關鍵意見領袖合作案」這是什麼？"],["徐總經理秋華：這個不是兒少頻道……"],["葉委員元之：對嘛！公視的，那是什麼？這是什麼？"],["胡董事長元輝：跟委員說明，在我的印象裡面，它應該是TaiwanPlus來瞭解國際行銷的一個……"],["葉委員元之：請問一下，你們找了哪些美國關鍵意見領袖？"],["胡董事長元輝：對，因為今天台長……"],["葉委員元之：沒有來？所以董事長不知道這個案子嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：我並不……"],["葉委員元之：我覺得你們的標案有很多都很奇怪，然後講到TaiwanPlus的FB有22萬人追蹤，但是我們去看它的臉書貼文，現在最高一篇大概就200個按讚，TaiwanPlus app當初大家說下載要到100萬，現在也只有15萬，可見公視在推廣上，像剛剛舉的標案都是我覺得很奇怪的啦，錢有沒有亂花？這個我們持續會追。再來是現在既有答應立法院要做的推廣，像TaiwanPlus app要求100萬，現在只有15萬。我的意思是說，公視花那麼多錢做這麼多東西，如果只是自己做開心的，就是沒有達到效果，請你們要針對我剛剛講的這些問題檢討一下，最好是給我一個報告，好不好？"],["王次長時思：不管是TaiwanPlus或公視，我想都會在行銷和流量上面加強……"],["葉委員元之：剛剛講的那些問題啦，好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。次長請回。","我們接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","葉元之","陳培瑜","何欣純","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","范雲","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","林月琴","陳冠廷","羅智強"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫─ 公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":3.7097187500000004,"end":4.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.2790937499999995,"end":6.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":10.375343750000003,"end":52.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":52.93409375,"end":53.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":52.984718750000006,"end":55.212218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.39784375,"end":56.899718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.05159375,"end":63.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":62.822843750000004,"end":65.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.81409375,"end":67.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":65.99534375,"end":66.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.95284375,"end":67.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":67.96971875,"end":69.52221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.98659375,"end":70.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":70.41659375,"end":76.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":76.71096875,"end":77.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.05659375,"end":81.52034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":82.63409375,"end":92.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.58596875,"end":101.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":99.22221875000001,"end":101.71971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":101.71971875000001,"end":102.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":102.09096875,"end":106.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":105.09471875000001,"end":105.83721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.18721875,"end":111.91221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":112.55346875000001,"end":117.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.72221875000001,"end":114.40971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":117.83534375,"end":123.01596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":123.28596875000001,"end":127.01534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":128.36534375,"end":135.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":136.56659375,"end":141.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":142.15221875,"end":149.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":150.40409375000002,"end":152.00721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":152.85096875000002,"end":156.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":156.54659375,"end":157.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.91346875000002,"end":169.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":165.33846875,"end":166.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":170.48534375,"end":171.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.76784375,"end":172.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":172.00409375,"end":182.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":183.17534375000002,"end":189.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.95971875,"end":186.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":189.79034375,"end":191.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":191.52846875,"end":209.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":192.42284375,"end":192.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":209.46659375000002,"end":216.04784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.04784375000003,"end":228.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":217.09409375,"end":217.46534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":226.66221875000002,"end":229.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":230.37471875000003,"end":235.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":236.44971875000002,"end":237.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":238.06971875000002,"end":246.40596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":239.30159375000002,"end":239.67284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":245.71409375000002,"end":256.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.42659375000002,"end":250.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.52721875,"end":255.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":256.44659375000003,"end":264.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":259.16346875,"end":259.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":260.44596875,"end":265.32284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.57596875,"end":268.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":269.06909375000004,"end":270.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":269.32221875,"end":272.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.84471875,"end":277.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":276.93284375,"end":280.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":278.60346875,"end":279.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.40909375,"end":280.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":281.03346875,"end":284.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":284.30721875,"end":288.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.62346875000003,"end":287.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.50909375000003,"end":289.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":289.13346875,"end":292.25534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.48346875000004,"end":291.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":291.93471875,"end":293.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":293.01471875000004,"end":302.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.98034375000003,"end":298.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":301.35096875,"end":303.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":302.97096875,"end":317.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.49659375000005,"end":314.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":317.71971875,"end":319.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":319.66034375000004,"end":334.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.14721875000004,"end":340.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":337.66596875000005,"end":338.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":340.48409375,"end":340.78784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":340.85534375000003,"end":341.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.32346875,"end":343.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":342.35721875,"end":343.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.26409375000003,"end":345.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":344.88846875,"end":345.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.27159375,"end":351.95909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":352.17846875000004,"end":353.69721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.93346875000003,"end":356.17784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":356.31284375,"end":357.13971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":357.10596875000005,"end":358.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":357.88221875000005,"end":360.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.66221875,"end":379.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.36096875000004,"end":372.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":372.39471875000004,"end":372.64784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":378.80721875,"end":390.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":391.10909375,"end":424.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":415.20659375,"end":416.30346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":425.33159375,"end":435.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":435.79409375,"end":436.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":436.68846875,"end":437.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.02596875,"end":437.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":437.12721875000005,"end":451.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":450.18846875,"end":456.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.06096875000003,"end":460.71846875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":460.00971875000005,"end":463.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.15721875,"end":461.76471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":463.78971875,"end":468.76784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":464.21159375,"end":465.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":467.80596875000003,"end":470.91096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":470.89409375,"end":472.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":471.51846875,"end":473.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":474.23534375,"end":485.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":486.11534375,"end":492.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":493.11846875000003,"end":494.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":495.86909375000005,"end":497.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":498.95721875000004,"end":499.51409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":499.51409375000003,"end":506.70284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":506.90534375000004,"end":513.0815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":508.69409375000004,"end":509.43659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":513.0815937500001,"end":513.9084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":514.22909375,"end":514.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":515.51159375,"end":515.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":515.5959687500001,"end":516.9797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":516.37221875,"end":529.3828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":520.28721875,"end":520.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":521.9240937500001,"end":521.9578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":522.3628437500001,"end":522.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":528.1340937500001,"end":528.9609687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":529.6359687500001,"end":534.4622187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":533.5678437500001,"end":536.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":536.63909375,"end":541.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":542.07284375,"end":548.6709687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":548.28284375,"end":564.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":567.3347187500001,"end":569.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":572.1440937500001,"end":572.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":573.2747187500001,"end":574.9453437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":577.3247187500001,"end":577.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":578.0334687500001,"end":584.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":584.58096875,"end":588.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.0990937500001,"end":592.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":592.2422187500001,"end":632.0672187499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":592.7822187500001,"end":595.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":632.79284375,"end":633.1640937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":633.7378437500001,"end":643.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.9265937499999,"end":641.3147187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":641.80409375,"end":642.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":643.1203437500001,"end":645.8372187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":646.30971875,"end":649.85346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":646.34346875,"end":646.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":648.11534375,"end":651.0347187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":650.56221875,"end":650.8659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":651.22034375,"end":651.6928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.7178437499999,"end":656.3672187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.697,"end":3.918,"text":"有請次長"},{"start":10.684,"end":39.063,"text":"次長好今天我們是針對公視兒少台的討論那基本上我們國家其實對於比如說衛星頻道都有一定的規範我現在就針對頻道的經營這方面來跟次長來請教第一個我們一般來說我們對頻道我們都要求它的自製率第二個我們要求它的首播或重播率我剛說公視它成立這個兒童台因為我看到大概是要製作200多個小時那200多個小時是可以撐起一個頻道嗎"},{"start":40.504,"end":67.031,"text":"因為理論上200多個小時一天如果你是24小時的話大概你的節目如果都沒有重播的話大概就只能播10天左右所以你們現在節目的安排是怎麼樣會不會造成重播率非常高跟委員說明他其實是新制是600多小時不是200多小時他應該之前提供了資料的計算基礎有一些落差我是按照你們提供的資料餒是是因為那個提供資料的計算基礎"},{"start":68.041,"end":80.935,"text":"所以是兩百多小時還是六百多小時?六百多小時那六百多個小時它是重播率跟首播重播比例是怎樣?讓公視來說明它的比例"},{"start":82.674,"end":111.636,"text":"其實我們新制首播是600多小時但是我們一天大概只有4個小時是當日首播它是要必須輪播就是說一天是4個小時的首播但是我們是播20小時所以另外幾個時段是重播那4小時的節目所以是怎樣所以首播是只有4小時是首播20小時是重播現在其實就當日的重播就是當日節目的重播"},{"start":112.748,"end":140.671,"text":"對,好,那所以實際上以你們現在這種首播跟重播率如果按照我們政府對於衛星頻道的管制是還蠻差的啦,還蠻差的那再來第二個我們看到你們報告裡面有提到說台灣是多語國家嘛總共有28個南島語言那按照你這邊寫的光是新住民母語就超過30種"},{"start":142.199,"end":169.278,"text":"那這麼多語言的情況之下你要讓這些兒童接觸到這些語言請問一下你會與哪些語言為主然後時間上怎麼分配我們每一天有一個母語的時段每一天一個時段對每一天有個時段就是有個帶狀那這個帶狀呢我們會分台語的節目、客語節目、原住民的節目混在一起就是一條帶狀每一天是不同的語種"},{"start":170.529,"end":190.885,"text":"每一天不同的語種那這樣有辦法達到你講的效果嗎因為你現在講的一副就是你們公視要成為推廣多種語言的一個非常重要的平台但是在這麼少的時數的情況之下有辦法達到你的效果嗎不要好像做好像那種就是點水式蜻蜓點水啊好像為了做而做"},{"start":191.581,"end":192.402,"text":"那你的那個KPI怎麼計算?"},{"start":211.678,"end":227.327,"text":"就是說你們要達到什麼樣的效果才你們花這個錢做這個才值得其實跟委員說明現在其實單一頻道的經營未來會漸漸不會是最後的主流所以現在在選台式的就選看式的這些平台的經營你回答我的問題嘛針對我的問題我回答嘛"},{"start":230.424,"end":258.815,"text":"你的KPI怎麼算嗎?就是你現在花這個錢做這件事情怎麼樣達到你語言推廣你是怎麼去去衡量你的效果我們現在兩個方向第一個當然就是他的新制節目的成長因為以如果以112年到113年的成長來說節目的成長是你花錢做節目我的意思是說就推廣的這一塊因為你做這個節目應該目的希望年輕人可以小朋友可以接觸嘛進而去接觸這個語言那你的KPI是怎麼算第二個就是流量的部分收視的部分"},{"start":260.716,"end":283.726,"text":"網路嗎?網路來計算嗎?那你希望收視跟流量達到多少?我們有請公視提供一個他們的評估的...你現在就回答我嘛,你不能回答就叫公視回答啊公視現在提出來的計畫是成長30%以上成長30%?那是以什麼為基礎?以之前就是成立兒少頻道之前"},{"start":284.352,"end":302.287,"text":"成立兒少頻道之前那基礎裡面沒有具體的數據嘛我們問的東西都好像都愛講不講的這樣現在是大家針對因為這錢花的我們要看到效果嘛對不對又不是說不支持你們但你們連一個KPI都講不清楚要怎麼支持然後再來齁"},{"start":304.389,"end":316.087,"text":"我們現在因為少子化關係所以兒童市場其實也萎縮啦我們現在所謂的兒童的頻道大概就有八個兩個是自製頻道MOMO跟東森那現在公視又要投入這個這個市場那實際上"},{"start":321.173,"end":343.298,"text":"其實你就是在既有的市場去跟人家搶還是說你有拓展市場這也是你們要考量一個問題我請教一下請問一下你們以過去的經驗來說你投資的最旗艦的節目是花多少錢是哪個節目委員主要關心的是經費嗎製作規模那是經費的話應該是邀國小學堂邀國小學好那花多少錢製作規模"},{"start":350.307,"end":353.37,"text":"美籍是180萬美籍180萬總共幾集總共現在做了13集總共13集對那之後那請問請問投資報酬率"},{"start":361.681,"end":364.263,"text":"所以我覺得為什麼我們會問這些問題我不希望說公視為了做而做因為當初公視有三個頻道現在要把一個頻道拿來做兒少節目"},{"start":391.155,"end":405.767,"text":"那是不是因為說也不知道幹嘛就來做兒少到底有沒有評估過這個東西到底值不值得做那現在既有的市場已經都有那麼多頻道你現在做這個東西你是不是只是去跟人家競爭還包括就是說你們提到說要培養人才"},{"start":406.508,"end":434.514,"text":"就是說透過這個機會去培養製作人才那現在的民間也有很多頻道在做這個事啊所以你是不是只是排擠既有的人才啊所以我覺得這些問題都是你必須要考慮的然後再一個點就是我現在公視拍了很多有質感的節目重點是要有人看啊那你們對於你們的推廣我不知道你的規劃是什麼而且現在不是說只有國內的市場嘛應該是國際的市場也非常重要海外推廣有相關的規劃嗎"},{"start":435.848,"end":455.604,"text":"跟委員做說明公視來做兒少頻道跟兒少節目最核心的關鍵是臺灣要有自己的兒童節目那現在雖然民間的頻道也有但是九成以上都是國外外購的兒少節目所以我們希望臺灣的小朋友有機會看到自己的內容沒有我剛剛就舉了嘛兩個像MOMO或東森他們也都很多是自製的頻道啊自製的節目啊"},{"start":456.444,"end":471.912,"text":"如果依照統計的數據來看九成以上其實都是外購的所以你希望說培養國內的人才嗎?包括國內的人才跟國內的節目那國內的人才的部分那所以就是海外這塊你就放棄是不是?當然不是我現在在問海外規劃嘛"},{"start":474.278,"end":497.237,"text":"在國際的部分海外的規劃包括跟其他平台業者的合作跟上架我想接下來也是公視努力的目標那至於說它的國際的規劃的詳細內容我們可以提供給委員然後再來我聽說公視有在有一個標案是做logo的然後總共花上千萬做logo有沒有這件事情"},{"start":499.732,"end":513.365,"text":"上千萬找了一個廠商就是請他規劃公視兒少台logo然後是沒有上網招標的有這件事情嗎?是 這個是用腰按的他是金馬的這個整個視覺包裝的這家公司是什麼廠商?"},{"start":516.043,"end":516.664,"text":"誰來判斷他的資歷跟經歷?"},{"start":536.984,"end":562.536,"text":"因為他其實他過去都是做金馬獎的整體視覺其實我們看他的成果是非常好的所以也希望就是經過我們跟他討論好那你把細項到底一千萬是怎麼分配好不好什麼樣的logo要花到一千萬我非常好奇然後還有一個標案叫做美國關鍵意見領袖合作案大概花了350萬這個是要找美國網紅合作是不是"},{"start":567.349,"end":587.368,"text":"美國關鍵意見領袖合作案這是什麼?對嘛公視的那是什麼?這是什麼?在我的印象裡面跟委員說明他應該是台灣Plus來瞭解國際行銷的一個請問一下你們找了哪些美國關鍵意見領袖?"},{"start":590.397,"end":602.377,"text":"因為今天台長沒有來所以董事長知道這個案子嗎我覺得你們的標案有很多都很奇怪然後講到台灣Plus台灣Plus的FB有22萬人的追蹤"},{"start":603.967,"end":630.725,"text":"然後但是我們去看他的這個臉書的貼文有的最高一篇現在就大概200個按讚然後台灣Plus的APP當初大家說下載要到100萬現在也只有15萬可見公視在推廣上面如果你們錢像剛剛決標案都是我覺得很奇怪的啦那錢有沒有亂花這我們持續會追啦然後再來是現在既有答應立法院要做的推廣像台灣Plus的APP要求100萬現在只有15萬"},{"start":632.83,"end":633.831,"text":"謝謝葉元之委員"}]}},{"id":"151748","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151748","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15507cf8894eb89667e44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed02cb56add62d41ea75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:23:57 - 11:32:14","影片長度":"00:08:17","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-17"},"duration":497,"end_time":"2024-04-25T11:32:14+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T11:23:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":533,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時24分）謝謝主席，我請周秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：王委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：秘書長好。有關於23日廢死的憲法法庭辯論，引起社會各界非常多的關心，在整個辯論庭裡面，其中法務部表達現在的死刑是合憲，而且法務部代表當庭意見也講得非常清楚，他講到世界各國的作法，還有整個經歷廢死的歷程。其中法務部比較同意的，他們所持的意見是，這樣的議題應該留給立法部門決定，在廢死之前包含憲法各部門應該要有一定的政治共識，而不是單一由比如大法官來做決定，您同意法務部的意見嗎？"],["周秘書長萬來：從大法官的職掌，當然他可以做解釋，解釋以後的解釋結果是怎麼樣，比如，他認為現在必須要修憲……必須要修法，當然就會走到立法院來，就必須走到立法院來。"],["王委員鴻薇：現在越來越多，包含我也注意到，民進黨的一些立委都認為要不要廢死應該由立法部門來決定，您作為立法院的秘書長，你支持嗎？其實廢不廢死應該要由立法部門來決定。"],["周秘書長萬來：這部分大概我不好表示，這個情況因為……"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你不願意表示意見。另外，如果大法官作出釋憲說死刑是違憲的，在過去的慣例上就會讓立法部門來修法，立法部門如果拒絕修法，可不可以？"],["周秘書長萬來：就會發生以前司法院組織法的時候，立法院就沒有配合修法。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以事實上是可以不配合修法，對不對？"],["周秘書長萬來：有這個例，就我所瞭解。"],["王委員鴻薇：前例有司法院組織法，在立法院並不配合大法官的釋憲結果來修法，所以我們是可以不配合修法？"],["周秘書長萬來：我只能說有這個例，我有看到羅委員昨天對外的發言。"],["王委員鴻薇：我想不只羅委員，其實立法院有非常多位委員，我相信連民進黨很多委員也不會配合修法，對不對？配合修法還得了！按照慣例，我們可以不配合修法。時間暫停一下，我請今天的司法院代表程怡怡廳長。"],["主席：請廳長。"],["王委員鴻薇：廳長好。今天我們討論的是立法院職權行使法，但是在這一次憲法法庭的各項意見裡面，我們先撇開有些力求主張廢死的團體的一些我認為是非常極端性的言論不談，其中大法官詹森林的談話其實引起非常非常大的注目，以及非常大的質疑，詹森林說大法官的判決不一定要跟民意妥協，這一點大家都覺得非常質疑，他的立論基礎是什麼呢？他說因為大法官是經過立法院同意的，而法官沒有民意基礎；他說大法官是有民意基礎，因為是立法院同意他擔任大法官，法官沒有民意基礎所以當然沒有這個權力去判處死刑。請問廳長，有關於這位大法官的意見，你同意嗎？"],["主席：主席這邊提醒，請本於職權回答，今天討論的是法案詢答。"],["王委員鴻薇：主席，等一下，時間暫停！時間暫停！我有權宜問題。"],["主席：你說。"],["王委員鴻薇：我有權宜問題，我剛才詢問的……"],["羅委員智強：主席，我覺得你這樣不對喔！抱歉，我也要幫王鴻薇講話，王鴻薇質詢的時候也沒跟你做任何詢問，也沒叫你做任何裁示，你可以打斷他嗎？"],["王委員鴻薇：對啊！怎麼可以打斷我呢？"],["羅委員智強：你不可以打斷他！主席，你這樣是不中立的！"],["王委員鴻薇：把時間還給我！"],["主席：王委員也沒有請求主席……"],["羅委員智強：廳長要不要回答，廳長自己會決定。"],["主席：羅委員，王委員也沒有請求主席給他時間延長或暫停。"],["羅委員智強：他自己會決定，你憑什麼下指導棋！"],["主席：王委員沒有請求本席要求時間暫停或延長。"],["王委員鴻薇：可是你占用我的時間，我要求請求回復。"],["主席：如果你要求延長時間，請徵詢主席的意見，時間延長1分鐘。"],["羅委員智強：他現在在質詢臺，他在備詢臺，是他的質詢時間，還需要你下指導棋，官員這麼無能嗎？有嗎？你最厲害！"],["主席：主席要邀請官員上臺的時候會說明為什麼邀請他上臺，沒錯。"],["羅委員智強：那你需要跟人家下指導棋？他是小學生啊？"],["王委員鴻薇：等一下，我的權宜問題，因為剛才主席占用我的時間，我要求把時間還給我。"],["主席：好啦！時間再延長1分鐘，沒問題。"],["王委員鴻薇：因為我今天也要為很多廣大的民眾來詢問，這當然很重要，我不瞭解為什麼主席要阻止官員回答，他也有他的自由意志，對不對？","回到我剛才的詢問，廳長，你同不同意法官因為沒有民意基礎，所以他不應該判死刑，你同意這樣的論述嗎？你下面很多法官喔！"],["程廳長怡怡：報告委員，我今天是就立法院職權行使法來代表本院回答，關於剛才您所垂詢的大法官言詞辯論庭的發言，我想我們也不便表示意見，那是大法官的意見。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以你們自己閹割自己的權力？我要特別講的是，既然大法官是立法院同意的，他具有所謂的民意基礎，最有民意基礎的不應該是立法機關嗎？還輪得到由大法官來釋憲嗎？我為什麼今天要特別做這樣的詢問，也要凸顯在整個憲法法庭裡面，大法官的言論之荒腔走板，完全不符合我們的民意，也完全不符合司法分立的狀況，所以我要再次抗議一下。其實我剛才的回答是幫所有的民眾來做詢問，我非常非常遺憾，主席竟然之前就做了制止，我也尊重廳長的回答，但是我覺得今天的主席事實上是剝奪了我們的質詢權，以上。"],["主席：謝謝王委員的詢答。主席這邊說明，剛剛我們是請司法院行政訴訟及懲戒廳的廳長，主席邀請政府機關官員來列席是就我們本次會議的議案內容進行詢答，主席提醒委員。如果委員有要關心的議題，我們兩位輪值召委都很樂意設法安排相關的議程，針對議題的內容邀請適當的政府機關列席人員前來進行說明。當然行政訴訟及懲戒廳的廳長能否回答今天議題以外的其他問題，我們尊重行政機關跟詢問委員的權利，主席在這裡說明。也請各位委員在發言當中，如果任何的權宜問題，譬如需要時間暫停，也請透過主席來指示會議工作人員，主席一向在發言時間上和發言內容上都充分地尊重各位委員的權利，針對剛剛的內容如果有稍微打斷我們會議的程序，也在這裡跟所有的與會委員表示歉意，後續我會儘量地讓委員暢所欲言，必要的提醒內容，我們就請官員適度的瞭解。","接下來有請賴委員士葆發言，賴委員士葆、賴委員士葆不在。","有請翁委員曉玲發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-17","speakers":["鍾佳濱","范雲","羅智強","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林思銘","吳思瑤","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員高金素梅等\n23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條\n之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案；三、繼續審查\n( 一) 民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」\n案、( 二) 委員賴瑞隆等16 人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草\n案」案；四、(一)繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審\n查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」\n案、( 四 ) 繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kaaw 等19 人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(五)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)審查\n委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133401_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.620968749999999,"end":4.8572187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.970343750000001,"end":13.075343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.868468750000002,"end":14.796593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.074718750000002,"end":17.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.24346875,"end":17.88471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.15471875,"end":19.42034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.63971875,"end":21.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.74909375,"end":30.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.23284375,"end":40.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.71659375,"end":47.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.06159375,"end":54.891593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.26284375,"end":84.27096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.66721875,"end":106.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.85471875,"end":102.79971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.20471875000001,"end":104.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.17471875000001,"end":107.89596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.89596875000001,"end":121.66596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.15534375000001,"end":126.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.01096875000002,"end":134.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.52909375000002,"end":147.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.68721875,"end":152.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.61471875,"end":159.17909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.56721875000002,"end":161.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.60096875000002,"end":160.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.55846875,"end":165.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.18221875,"end":169.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.66721875000002,"end":178.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.10846875000001,"end":187.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.56721875000002,"end":194.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":194.85284375,"end":197.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.24909375000001,"end":200.94471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":201.45096875000002,"end":207.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.13784375,"end":209.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.47471875000002,"end":211.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":212.36909375000002,"end":212.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.26346875000002,"end":215.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.32534375,"end":223.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.96221875,"end":229.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.73346875000001,"end":253.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.84784375,"end":283.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":283.93596875000003,"end":284.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.88096875,"end":288.79596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.96471875000003,"end":297.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.58346875,"end":303.66284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":304.42221875,"end":307.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":308.21909375,"end":308.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.23596875000004,"end":308.26971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.26971875000004,"end":311.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":309.46784375000004,"end":309.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":309.48471875,"end":313.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":313.82159375000003,"end":319.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":319.33971875000003,"end":324.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":319.81221875,"end":320.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":321.41534375000003,"end":321.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":321.43221875,"end":327.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":324.03096875,"end":330.10596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":328.87409375000004,"end":329.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":330.10596875000005,"end":330.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":330.67971875,"end":330.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":330.89909375,"end":331.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":331.03409375,"end":335.79284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":331.18596875000003,"end":333.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":335.03346875,"end":337.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":336.13034375,"end":341.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":339.65721875,"end":350.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":349.93409375000005,"end":354.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":354.03471875,"end":354.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.06846875,"end":354.22034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":354.22034375000004,"end":354.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.43971875,"end":354.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":354.49034375,"end":354.50721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.50721875000005,"end":354.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":354.52409375,"end":354.54096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.54096875000005,"end":354.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":354.57471875000005,"end":354.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":354.62534375,"end":354.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":354.91221875,"end":355.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.14846875,"end":355.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":355.26659375,"end":355.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.31721875,"end":355.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":355.41846875000005,"end":355.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.95846875,"end":363.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":356.75159375000004,"end":357.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":364.32846875,"end":366.38721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.45034375,"end":367.85534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":369.23909375000005,"end":375.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":376.73159375,"end":386.13096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":386.70471875000004,"end":387.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.56534375,"end":387.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.49346875000003,"end":390.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.51846875,"end":390.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":391.09221875000003,"end":391.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":392.37471875,"end":393.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":393.87659375000004,"end":399.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":400.33971875000003,"end":402.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.00971875000005,"end":407.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":408.40596875,"end":417.72096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.41284375000004,"end":419.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.15096875,"end":426.49596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.88409375000003,"end":431.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":431.82846875,"end":455.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.65596875000006,"end":456.17909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":456.98909375000005,"end":459.57096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.38096875,"end":472.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":472.58159375,"end":481.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":482.62221875000006,"end":494.87346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":495.43034375,"end":495.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":495.44721875000005,"end":497.30346875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.968,"end":10.649,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":20.286,"end":39.293,"text":"二十三號有關於廢死的憲法法庭的辯論,引起社會各界非常多的關心。在整個的辯論庭裡面,其中法務部表達了世上現在的死刑是何現。"},{"start":40.914,"end":54.744,"text":"而且在法務部的代表當庭的意見他也講得非常清楚他講到世界各國的做法還有在整個的經歷FACE的一個歷程那其中其實法務部他們比較同意的他們所持的意見說這樣的議題應該是留給立法部門來決定"},{"start":67.893,"end":68.613,"text":"法務部的意見您同意嗎?"},{"start":86.687,"end":112.592,"text":"如果從這一個大法官他的執掌當然他可以做解釋啦那如果解釋以後他的解釋結果是怎麼樣那如果是說比如說他認為現在必須要修憲那你那邊要修必須要修法那當然會要走到立法院來就必須走到立法院來現在越來越多其實包含我也注意到民進黨的一些立委也都認為喔"},{"start":113.812,"end":126.031,"text":"要不要廢死應該是由立法部門來決定。您作為我們立法院的秘書長你支持嗎?其實廢不廢死應該要由立法部門來決定。"},{"start":128.509,"end":151.941,"text":"所以你不願意表示意見那另外就是如果大法官做出釋憲說此刑是違憲的那麼當然在過去的慣例上就會讓我們立法部門來修法那麼立法部門如果我們拒絕修法可不可以"},{"start":153.419,"end":177.811,"text":"這會發生以前的司法院組織法的時候立法院就沒有配合了就沒有配合修法所以事實上是可以不配合修法對不對有這個例過了就是前例有司法院組織法然後在立法院並不配合大法官的釋憲結果來修法所以我們是可以不配合修法"},{"start":179.141,"end":200.731,"text":"我只能說有這個問題,我想羅委員特別有,我有看到他昨天的對外的官員我想不只羅委員,其實我們立法院非常多位的委員我相信連民進黨的很多委員也不會配合修法啦對不對,這個配合修法還得了,所以按照慣例我們可以不配合修法"},{"start":201.471,"end":202.272,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":222.953,"end":242.728,"text":"好 聽講好 因為今天那個我們討論的是我們立法院那個職權行使法但是呢 在我們這一次的憲法法庭的這個各項意見裡面我們先撇開有一些這個力求主張廢死的團體的一些我認為是非常極端性言論不談"},{"start":243.809,"end":245.971,"text":"其中大法官詹森林他的談話其實是引起非常大的注目而且也非常大的質疑詹森林他說大法官的判決不一定要跟民意去妥協這點大家覺得非常質疑那他的立論基礎是什麼呢"},{"start":265.945,"end":268.268,"text":"事由．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":284.949,"end":303.161,"text":"法官因為你沒有民基處,所以你當然沒有這個權利去判處死刑。請問一下聽長,有關於這位大法官的意見,你同意嗎?主席這邊提醒,請本宇志權回答。今天討論的是法案巡檔。"},{"start":304.471,"end":322.82,"text":"主席,等一下時間暫停,時間暫停,我有權宜問題。你說。我也有權宜問題。欸,主席我覺得你這樣不對喔。我剛才詢問的。抱歉,我也要幫王懷惟講話喔。王懷惟質詢的時候他也沒跟你做任何詢問,也沒叫你做任何才事。你可以打斷他嗎?對啊。你不可以打斷他。你不可以打斷我呢。主席這樣是不正義的。王懷惟也沒有請求質詢。"},{"start":324.881,"end":329.063,"text":"他要不要回答?委員長自己會決定。他自己會決定。你憑什麼要,你憑什麼要下指導期?你要延長時間請徵詢主席的意見。時間延長一分鐘。他現在在質詢台,是他的質詢時間。"},{"start":345.672,"end":345.952,"text":"條文修正草案案"},{"start":369.295,"end":370.096,"text":"對,因為我覺得今天就是我也要為很多廣大的民眾來詢問啊"},{"start":377.329,"end":401.056,"text":"這當然很重要啊。我不瞭解為什麼我們的主席要阻止,阻止官員來回答。他也有他的自由意志啊。對不對?那我剛才的詢問,聽講你同不同意法官一位沒有民意基礎,所以他不應該判死刑。你同意這樣的論述嗎?"},{"start":406.038,"end":418.858,"text":"你下面很多法官喔報告委員我今天是就立法院之間行司法來代表本院回答那關於剛才您所推薦的那個大法官當"},{"start":420.259,"end":423.101,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":445.572,"end":471.663,"text":"所以我為什麼今天要特別去做這樣的詢問也要凸顯在整個憲法法庭裡面大法官他的這個言論之荒腔走板完全不符合我們的民意也完全不符合我們整個的一個司法我們的分立的一個狀況所以我這再次的要要"},{"start":472.583,"end":472.823,"text":"條文宣告。"}]}},{"id":"151747","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151747","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15edf2cefa4a20cbf020df1bb4ac2af973c68e374cd8c4bed0dc6d513c1fde7d655ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"11:13:52 - 11:26:05","影片長度":"00:12:13","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫—公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n(4月24日及25日二天一次會)）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-9"},"duration":733,"end_time":"2024-04-25T11:26:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T11:13:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":557,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（11時14分）謝謝主席。我請王次長，還有胡元輝董事長，還有文策院的蔡董事長。"],["主席：請王次長、胡董事長，還有蔡董事長。"],["王次長時思：委員好！"],["吳委員春城：不好意思！請三位，主要是要跟大家溝通，因為我們今天談兒少，不過我要問大家，你知道80%的兒少都是誰帶長大的？你們有帶過小孩嗎？家裡有小孩嗎？80%的兒少都是誰帶的？爸爸媽媽，還是爺爺奶奶？"],["王次長時思：父母吧！"],["吳委員春城：父母嗎？唉唷！你家是你父母帶大的？"],["王次長時思：是啊！"],["吳委員春城：是你的父母還是小孩子的父母？"],["王次長時思：我的父母，我沒有小孩。"],["吳委員春城：你的父母，也就是阿公阿媽帶大的嘛！對不對？"],["王次長時思：我的父母也是他的父母帶大的。"],["吳委員春城：你在講什麼？"],["王次長時思：就是我的阿公阿媽帶大的。"],["吳委員春城：好啦！我這個是根據資料的，將近80%，臺灣大部分的兒童都是爺爺奶奶帶長大的，在臺灣這個現象很普遍，像我家裡也是一樣，我有3個孫子，帶著3個孫子。我們今天談兒少，大家知道我在談壯世代，其實你看很多，我們都不理這些人，大部分的孩子到了小學，畢業之後就回到父母的身邊，然後就遠離他的爺爺奶奶。甚至我們測過，很多人對爺爺奶奶的認識度只有30分，爺爺奶奶認識小孫子都有達到80分，為什麼？因為爺爺奶奶落伍了，小孩子認為問什麼你都不知道，你都沒跟上時代。","我請各位看一下，文化部想像的高齡社會是什麼？你想像的高齡社會是一個金字塔型還是一個倒金字塔型？"],["王次長時思：我想臺灣整體面臨人口老化已經是一個很重要的議題，也已經上升到甚至是國安問題，我想大家都很瞭解，臺灣在未來老化的現象會越來越嚴重。"],["吳委員春城：很清楚，就是2040年，就是這樣子，我們未來的社會主力就是高齡者……"],["王次長時思：比例會相當高。"],["吳委員春城：所有的事情，如生產力、社會力，各方面都是高齡者的社會，但是我就不曉得文化部在設定文化的時候如何看上面這一層。"],["王次長時思：應該是整體啦！全部的人都是文化部服務的對象。"],["吳委員春城：有整體但現在的確沒有看到，去年你們針對60歲以上的文化預算只占文化部的0.2%，我有去統計，這一部分史部長都認同了，所以他為什麼這麼的驚訝？我們都在做青年文化、在做古蹟文化，對於這一塊，只要過60歲，包括我們文化界的人，只要過了一個年齡以後，幾乎都是放到倉庫裡面，這個都有在做，但是比例太少了，與人口不成比例。這個算是你們現在在做的，我要請問次長，壯世代只剩下鄉土劇可以看嗎？"],["王次長時思：我想不是啦！現在的壯世代應該任何節目的類型，不管是表演藝術、視覺藝術，各種的電視型態都沒有做這種年齡的限制，其實都是可以提供服務的對象。"],["吳委員春城：對，都可以服務，但是你瞭解嗎？有瞭解他們的需求嗎？事實上，各位想像的，現在好萊塢都已經發現……我剛才講的這個也不僅是說我都提供老人服務啦！事實上，這個是一個很龐大的產業，因為壯世代掌握三分之二的財富，但是剛才在聊天時就發現，我們所有的品牌都要年輕化、要去老化，這一塊離得越遠越好。最後就做一點想像，不然他們需要什麼你們也不太瞭解，想一想，應該是鄉土劇吧！對不對？把這一群人越搞越low。"],["王次長時思：沒有，我們沒有做這類的設定。"],["吳委員春城：你給他文化歧視，對，他們是應該什麼都有，理論上是……"],["王次長時思：不會啦！應該是跟其他的年齡層一樣，各種的文化媒介都應該可以享受。"],["吳委員春城：對，但是是這樣的嗎？你用想像的說孩子看的他們也會看，年輕人看的他們也可以看，所以不需要為他們而特別設計，那世界一家，你有需要做客家文化、有需要原住民文化嗎？反正都是人嘛！人可以看的東西，他都可以看，是這個意思嗎？"],["王次長時思：沒有，市場的需求當然還是依據不同的需求來進行，除了年齡也有不同的……"],["吳委員春城：不要講這個，就是沒有做啦！就是非常的偏廢，事實上是這樣子。你知道他們的需求嗎？壯世代有很多的願望，我希望文化部好好去研究他們的文化需求，剛才講的那個說法實在是太普遍、太廣泛論了，基本上沒有真正瞭解他們。你看高齡者看電視的動機，第一點就是知道各地的新聞消息，有滿足他們所關心的。每一個不同年齡的人所關注的東西不一樣，你知道他們關注什麼嗎？第二個是知道有用的生活常識、技能，占87%。在我們現在的節目當中，針對這一群人所關注的，只關注健康資訊嗎？你認為有做一些高齡者的養生、保健，這樣就是有在關心他們了，他們的生活只有這樣子嗎？"],["王次長時思：沒有，我想還是值得努力啦！但是譬如我們在科技計畫裡面也有針對高齡者的計畫，我們做的可能還可以再提升。"],["吳委員春城：針對這個數據，我們要更精進。我來自行銷界，行銷廣告人不會做60歲以上的廣告，所以企業當中針對60歲以上投放廣告只占行銷費用的5%，基本上是放棄這塊市場，這塊市場掌握三分之二的財富，結果企業都不想賺他的錢。","接下來我要請胡董事長，要來問一下公視的問題。公視主要的收視群年齡應該都比較偏高，55歲以上，我想公視可以再進一步去瞭解這一些需求。我提供一個，荷蘭有一個MAX電視臺，是荷蘭的公視，他們特別做一個50+專屬的節目，這個節目後來成為黏著度非常高的熟齡社群，我不曉得你們知不知道這個。這個熟齡社群在意的不是省錢，很多人認為他們省吃儉用、不花錢，所以沒有這個產業，事實上不是，他們重視的是怎麼把錢花得有意義，但是大家不知道他們的意義是什麼。我們目前看到公視還是以銀髮照顧、養生為主，你所想像的還是老人的這些需求，未來希望能夠以這個為典範，多增加社會參與的部分。","最後我也要請文策院蔡董事長，這是史哲部長上次答復我的，但他交辦的都是文策院，不曉得你有沒有收到這份公文？"],["蔡董事長嘉駿：有，除了有收到公文之外，其實上次去你辦公室也聽你分享很多壯世代的議題，回文策院之後，其實我們也跟相關的主管開了針對壯世代這樣的內容投資的一個計畫，近期希望有機會再去拜訪委員，聽取委員更多、更專業的意見。"],["吳委員春城：好，謝謝，很感謝，因為這個太重要了。部長回復我的文中提到會納入壯世代的文化需求，會更進一步深入的瞭解；第二個，也要請文策院去規劃發展臺灣高齡文化產業這部分的計畫，所以期待你下一步的消息。","最後，公視是不是可以兩個月之內提出來，深入調查……次長，你只要去GPT輸入高齡者的需求，其實跑出來的都是銀髮族的需求，因為我們長期有一個銀髮的思維，認為60歲就是老人，現在不是啦！現在80歲以後才會稱為老人，我們有空白的20年，我們沒有任何第三人生的想像，這是文化部應該去努力的，現在做的真的差距很大，次長真的要好好去瞭解，我們要深度，所以我要請公視針對50+的收視行為與節目需求提出報告，然後也可以參考荷蘭，規劃壯世代的節目及頻道計畫，不曉得公視可不可以？次長認不認同、支不支持？"],["王次長時思：第一個，針對壯世代的節目需求跟節目內容規劃，我想這個公視應該可以繼續來做，文化部也會針對壯世代的需求提供的藝文服務來做研析跟提供。","第二個就是要針對55+的收視行為及節目需求報告，我是建議我們如果要做這一類的收視行為調查，通常需要的時間軸距比較長，是不是不要限制公視兩個月，譬如讓他們一季或半年之後，才可以有一個比較像是收視調查，會比較接近真實的結果？"],["吳委員春城：謝謝，次長是支持的，文化部支持，胡董事長，你可以嗎？"],["胡董事長元輝：我們努力，因為目前來講，本身有做一些收視的調查，另外，我們知道有一些廣告公司及傳播業有做，我們可以整合這個部分來做一些處理。剛才說要更深入的話，就要長一點的時間。"],["吳委員春城：對，因為調查這個有很多文化植入，包括當事者也有很多被認知，所以它調查出來的數據，這個調查數據會用傳統的價值觀，但不是他心裡需要的，所以必須要用一些質化的調查。OK，謝謝文化部。"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員。"],["吳委員春城：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳春城委員，次長請回。","接下來請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":374,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-9","speakers":["林宜瑾","洪孟楷","柯志恩","萬美玲","葛如鈞","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","吳沛憶","張雅琳","吳春城","葉元之","陳培瑜","何欣純","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","麥玉珍","范雲","羅廷瑋","林倩綺","林月琴","陳冠廷","羅智強"],"page_start":309,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133301","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133301_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第9次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部次長列席就「跨族群、跨平台、跨語言兒少服務計畫─ 公視第3台轉型兒少頻道」進\n行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133301_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.08846875,"end":28.245968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.54659375,"end":26.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.785968750000002,"end":29.309093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.29221875,"end":33.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.74721875,"end":37.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.830968750000004,"end":39.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.75471875,"end":40.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.47596875,"end":42.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.01159375,"end":45.711593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.58471875,"end":52.157843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.76534375,"end":56.14034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.86596875,"end":57.87846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.23284375,"end":59.61659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":59.70096875,"end":61.523468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.523468750000006,"end":62.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":63.244718750000004,"end":66.13034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.65346875,"end":69.50534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.76721875,"end":70.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.29409375,"end":74.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.88409375,"end":80.77784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.35659375,"end":77.48721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.50784375,"end":81.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":81.21659375,"end":84.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.03909375,"end":83.62971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":85.04721875,"end":90.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.94909375,"end":99.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":99.99846875,"end":105.06096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.56284375000001,"end":109.17846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.39784375,"end":133.47846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.59221875,"end":137.62971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":138.64221875,"end":142.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":144.56534375,"end":159.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":160.36034375,"end":162.04784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.63846875000002,"end":167.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.83159375000002,"end":174.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.44284375,"end":172.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.11346875,"end":178.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.49284375000002,"end":181.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.56846875000002,"end":179.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.68221875,"end":181.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.21346875,"end":191.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.98034375,"end":190.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":191.12346875,"end":199.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.48909375000002,"end":205.11284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.70409375000003,"end":204.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":205.75409375,"end":213.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":214.05659375000002,"end":214.95096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.37284375000002,"end":215.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":216.72284375,"end":217.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.10659375,"end":218.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.66346875000002,"end":220.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":220.14846875,"end":227.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.02909375000002,"end":238.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":239.35221875000002,"end":250.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":251.70471875,"end":260.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.59346875,"end":274.23284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":272.93346875000003,"end":275.81909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":276.49409375,"end":315.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":315.81284375,"end":324.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.13346875,"end":319.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.60471875,"end":329.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":325.04346875000005,"end":326.59596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":329.14409375,"end":349.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.17784375,"end":329.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.51534375,"end":331.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.69784375,"end":355.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":352.73534375,"end":384.42659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":385.13534375,"end":390.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":390.97409375,"end":415.91534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.12659375000004,"end":423.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":422.19284375,"end":436.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":437.17784375,"end":445.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":445.78409375,"end":451.23471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":451.97721875,"end":458.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":458.77784375000005,"end":511.27596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":511.88346875,"end":545.9709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":547.2197187500001,"end":547.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":547.55721875,"end":547.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":548.2490937499999,"end":548.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.97471875,"end":567.0984687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.5603437500001,"end":554.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.0834687500001,"end":555.6740937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.9897187500001,"end":561.0065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":561.0065937500001,"end":561.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":564.21284375,"end":565.0903437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":567.0984687499999,"end":567.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":567.2334687499999,"end":649.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.99721875,"end":649.53284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.80284375,"end":684.6159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":653.31284375,"end":653.6672187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.6672187500001,"end":653.6840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":653.6840937500001,"end":653.7009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":657.97034375,"end":658.42596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":658.42596875,"end":658.4765937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":662.5603437500001,"end":663.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":664.33221875,"end":664.7709687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":684.8015937499999,"end":693.4584687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":693.4584687500001,"end":704.1909687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":695.1628437500001,"end":695.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":698.77409375,"end":699.0947187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":704.1909687500001,"end":704.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":704.24159375,"end":704.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":704.56221875,"end":704.8659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":704.8659687500001,"end":706.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":704.93346875,"end":706.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":706.5534687500001,"end":728.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":727.5290937500001,"end":728.0859687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":729.7903437500001,"end":732.96284375}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.077,"end":12.779,"text":"主要是要跟大家溝通因為我們今天談兒少"},{"start":37.901,"end":65.94,"text":"不過我要問大家齁 這個你知道百分之八十的兒少都誰帶長大的你們有帶過小孩嗎?家裡有小孩嗎?百分之八十的兒少都是誰在當黨?爸爸媽媽還是爺爺奶奶?父母吧父母嗎?唉呦你家是你父母長大的是啊是啊是你的父母還是小孩子的父母?"},{"start":67.104,"end":90.232,"text":"我的父母啊,我沒有想到。你的父母啊,就是阿公阿嬤帶長大的嘛,對不對?我的父母,我的父母也是他的父母帶長大的啊。就是我的阿公阿嬤帶長大的。你在講什麼,我沒有聽到。我在講的時候,好啦。那個,我這個是根據資料的。將近80%大部分的兒童都是爺爺奶奶帶長大。"},{"start":92.624,"end":94.327,"text":"各位在家庭你知道我們今天談兒少"},{"start":106.598,"end":130.598,"text":"因為大家知道我在談壯世代其實你看那個很多我們都不理爸爸不理這些人所以你知道大部分的孩子、兒童到了小學畢業之後就回到父母的身邊然後就遠離了他的爺爺奶奶甚至很多人我們測過對爺爺奶奶認識度只有30分"},{"start":134.839,"end":142.63,"text":"爺爺奶奶認識小孫子都有大到80分世代 因為爺爺奶奶落伍了"},{"start":144.582,"end":150.705,"text":"文化部想像的高齡社會是什麼?你想像的高齡社會是一個金字塔型的還是一個倒金字塔型?"},{"start":168.868,"end":180.438,"text":"我想台灣整體面臨人口老化已經是一個很重要的議題已經是上升到甚至是國安問題我想大家都很了解台灣在未來老化的現象會越來越嚴重主力就是高齡者高齡者所有的生產力、消費力"},{"start":191.388,"end":212.705,"text":"各方面都是高齡者社會但是我不曉得文化部在設定文化的時候如何看上面這一層應該是整體啦,整體的人都是文化部的服務對象的確沒有看到你們去年在60歲以上的文化預算只占文化部的0.2%我有去統計"},{"start":217.092,"end":237.187,"text":"這一部分史部長都認同啊所以他為什麼這麼的驚訝我們都在做青年文化在做古蹟文化對於這一塊你只要過60歲包括我們的文化界的人過了一個年齡以後幾乎都是放到倉庫裡面"},{"start":239.589,"end":260.236,"text":"這一個裡面的 都有在做 但是比例太少了 不成人口比例 不成人口比例好 謝謝你們現在在做 這個算是在做了嘛 這一個我來請問我們次長 壯世代只剩下鄉土劇可以看嗎"},{"start":261.65,"end":262.53,"text":"對,都是可以服務啦,但是你了解嗎?"},{"start":277.067,"end":304.07,"text":"瞭解他們的需求嗎?事實上各位在想像的因為這個已經是現在好萊塢都已經發現我剛才講這個也不僅是一個說哎呀你這個老人我都提供老人服務啦事實上這個是一個很龐大的產業因為壯士在掌握三分之二財富但是呢剛才才聊天我們所有品牌都要做要品牌年輕化要去老化"},{"start":305.67,"end":330.498,"text":"這一塊離得越遠越好那最後一個就做一點那想像不然他們需要什麼你們也不太了解想想應該是鄉土劇吧就把這群人越搞越low你給他文化的一個事實上一個文化歧視對他們是應該什麼都有理論上是應該是他跟其他的年齡層一樣各種的文化媒體都應該可以享受"},{"start":331.738,"end":332.078,"text":"吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員"},{"start":349.998,"end":374.58,"text":"市場的需求當然還是依據不同的需求來進行不要講這個就是沒有做啦就是非常的偏廢嘛就是這事實上都這樣子不要再用這一個你知道他們的需求嗎這個重視在很多的元朦我希望這個教育文化部好好地去研究他們的文化需求剛才講的那個說法實在是太普遍太廣泛論的"},{"start":376.101,"end":384.067,"text":"基本上沒有真正了解他們你看高興哲的看電視的一個動機第一點就是知道各地新聞消息"},{"start":385.222,"end":413.322,"text":"有滿足他們所關心你知道每一個跟不同年齡的人所關注的東西不一樣的你知道他們關注什麼嗎?第二個是知道有用的生活常識技能 佔87%那我們在現在的這個節目當中針對這一群讓他們所關注只是關注健康嗎?資訊嗎?你認為你有做一些高齡者的養生啊?保健啊?這個就是對對對你覺得這樣子就是有在關心他們"},{"start":414.142,"end":415.062,"text":"我來自行銷界,行銷廣告人不會做60歲以上的廣告"},{"start":437.31,"end":452.98,"text":"所以企業當中針對60歲以上投放廣告只佔它行銷費用的5%基本上是放棄這塊市場這塊市場掌握三分之的財富結果企業都不想賺他的錢這一個公視呢接下來請胡董事長來問一下公視的問題"},{"start":458.834,"end":472.151,"text":"公視主要的收視群都應該是年齡比較偏高,55家以上。我想公視可以再進一步去了解這些需求。"},{"start":474.794,"end":493.627,"text":"我提供一個,就荷蘭有一個MASS的電視台,它也是公視,荷蘭的公視,他們特別做一個50家的專屬的節目,那這個節目後來成為非常熱門,我不曉得你們了不了也知不知道這個,那成為連著度非常高的首領社群。"},{"start":494.847,"end":510.607,"text":"那這個手動社群他們在意的不是省錢很多人認為說他們省吃減用不花錢所以沒有這個產業事實上不是而是他們重視的是怎麼把錢花得有意義但是大家不知道他們的意義是什麼"},{"start":511.989,"end":528.573,"text":"所以我們目前所看到的公視還是引法照護養生你所想像的還是老人的這些需求那比較未來希望能夠以這個為典範多增加在社會參與的部分"},{"start":533.396,"end":545.709,"text":"最後我也要請我們蔡董事長文策院因為這是我們史德部長上次又來答覆我這答覆我他交辦的都是文策院不曉得你們有收到這份公文"},{"start":548.328,"end":566.163,"text":"有,那個報告委員齁除了公文有受到之外其實上次去你辦公室也聽你分享了很多壯世代這個議題齁那回文測驗之後其實我們也跟相關的主管有開了針對壯世代這樣的一個內容投資的一個計畫那近期希望再有機會去拜訪委員聽取委員更多更專業的意見"},{"start":568.085,"end":596.443,"text":"好 謝謝所以很感謝就是因為這個太重要了那部長就是他回覆我的文章是要會納入壯賽的文化需求的更進一步深入的了解第二個也要請文策院去規劃發展台灣高齡文化產業這部分的計畫那所以期待你的下一步的消息那最後我要對公視這個我們公視是不是可以兩個月之內提出來"},{"start":597.844,"end":626.93,"text":"深入調查,次長那個剛才我知道你去那個GPT去看你只要輸入高齡者的需求其實跑出來的都是銀髮族的需求因為我們長期有一個銀髮的思維認為60歲就是老人現在不是啦現在80歲以後才會成為我們有空白20年我們沒有任何第三人生的想像這是文化部應該要去努力的啦"},{"start":627.29,"end":649.344,"text":"現在做的真的差距很大這個次長真的好好的去了解我們要深度所以我要請公視是不是針對50家的收視行為節目需求能夠提出報告然後也可以規劃參考荷蘭的這個規劃壯實在節目頻道計畫不曉得公視可不可以那個次長認不認同知不支持"},{"start":649.864,"end":652.947,"text":"第一個就是針對壯士代的這個節目需求跟他節目內容規劃我想這個公視應該是可以來繼續來做我們也文化部也會針對這個壯士代的需求來提供的藝文的服務來做研析跟提供那第二個就是說要針對55家的這個收視行為跟節目需求報告"},{"start":668.803,"end":684.321,"text":"我是建議是這樣因為我們如果要做這一類的收視行為調查他通常需要的時間的軸距比較長是不是不要限制公視兩個月是不是譬如讓他們一季或者半年之後才可以有一個比較像是收視調查的會比較接近真實的結果"},{"start":687.627,"end":703.586,"text":"市長是支持,文化部支持,吳董事長你可以嗎?我們努力,因為目前來講本身有做一些收視的調查,另外我們知道一些廣告公司跟傳播業有做,我們可以整合這個部分來做一些處理"},{"start":704.167,"end":704.447,"text":"謝謝吳春城委員 次長請問"}]}},{"id":"151746","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151746","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15bb32c90daea10a56e44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed03649d8bf9595885e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:16:15 - 11:23:45","影片長度":"00:07:30","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-17"},"duration":450,"end_time":"2024-04-25T11:23:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T11:16:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":521,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時16分）主席、各位委員。有請秘書長。"],["主席：請周秘書長。"],["周秘書長萬來：鄭委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：秘書長好。憲法增修條文第十條第十二項規定，國家應依民族意願，保障原住民族之地位及政治參與，而且還特別明定，要制定原住民族基本法，還有很多相關的法律。在105年8月1號，蔡總統就任之後的3個月，蔡總統特別向原住民族道歉，並做了很大的承諾說，要制定原住民族自治法以及原住民族土地及海域法，這是他的承諾，在105年8月1號就任之後，向全國的人民承諾，會很快的將原住民族自治法以及原住民族土地及海域法送到立法院。甚至行政院的秘書長在105年年底也特別宣示而且講了兩次，會在105年12月底以前把原住民族土地及海域法送到立法院。但是第9屆、第10屆的立法院，民進黨絕對多數，他們不需要的法律就請行政院不要送來，所以已經承諾的事情寧可反悔，也不送來，是這樣的情形。","因此，本席跟高金素梅委員特別提出立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正案，因為現行條文對基於少數的原住民立委而言，完全必須要看政黨到底要不要支持原住民的條款，所以在這樣的情形之下，我們原住民的立委要推動這些相關法律，必須要看哪一個政黨願意支持。而在過去的這麼多年來，立法院過去都很重視原住民，但是在過去的8年來，我們非常、非常的失望。我就舉個例子，就業服務法民國81年三讀通過，其中第二十四條，當時的憲法還是叫「山胞」，行政院就業服務法的草案送到立法院也是寫「山胞」，原住民的立委說要改為「原住民」，雖然憲法在民國83年8月1號才把「山胞」改為「原住民」，但是就業服務法在立法院尊重原住民的情況之下，民國81年就業服務法就用「原住民」這3個字，所以立法院是一個展現人民意志的地方。而對基於少數的原住民，中華民國政府怎麼樣落實憲法增修條文第十條第十二項的規定？就是要靠立法院，所以要靠立法院就必須怎麼樣？重視原住民立法委員的意見！","本席跟高金素梅委員特別提到，對於黨團的成立，原住民立委應該要有自主性，不要受到相關的這些……因為加入原住民黨團的時候，就必須要退出原來的政黨，像這樣的該怎麼樣去解決，所以本席提出這樣的條文。秘書長，你的意見如何？"],["周秘書長萬來：尊重委員，這是屬於立法政策。那天高金委員來，我也特別從立法技術上，從那項裡面……因為黨團在第一項裡面是排除，但黨團的總數現在是5個。我有跟他報告，如果立法政策決定要修正，就要加上那幾個文字。我已經有跟高金委員報告過了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：其實文字可以再檢討，但是怎麼樣去保障這個部分。另外，上次有跟秘書長稍微提了一下，因為原住民立法委員的選區是涵蓋臺、澎、金、馬，但是現在立法院所有對立委個別的相關權益，都是用區域立委的角度去規劃。像我們是全臺灣，整個臺灣還包括離島都是我們的選區，從臺北坐高鐵到新左營要1小時34分鐘，我選區最遠的是哪裡呢？滿州鄉！從新左營到滿州鄉還要2小時6分鐘。所以要這麼久的時間，1小時加34分，再加2小時6分，等於是三個多小時、將近4個小時。我只是舉例子，如果從花蓮出發到滿州鄉也一樣，搭火車到枋寮要3小時35分鐘，枋寮到滿州還要一個多小時，是這樣的。所以這些相關的規定必須要因應。今天相關的法案修正也有這個部分，希望能夠支持，好不好？"],["周秘書長萬來：因為上次交代，法制局有做過一些研究。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭委員。","接下來請洪委員孟楷發言，洪委員、洪委員孟楷不在。","接下來請王委員鴻薇發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-17","speakers":["鍾佳濱","范雲","羅智強","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林思銘","吳思瑤","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員高金素梅等\n23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條\n之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案；三、繼續審查\n( 一) 民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」\n案、( 二) 委員賴瑞隆等16 人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草\n案」案；四、(一)繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審\n查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」\n案、( 四 ) 繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kaaw 等19 人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(五)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)審查\n委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133401_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.395343750000002,"end":19.656593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.875968750000002,"end":21.192218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.512843750000002,"end":22.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.79909375,"end":26.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.11971875,"end":28.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.70159375,"end":30.777218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.23284375,"end":33.274718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.96659375,"end":36.17721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.46409375,"end":38.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.180968750000005,"end":40.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.12159375,"end":43.197218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.90596875,"end":44.985968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.67784375,"end":47.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.28096875,"end":49.609718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.330968750000004,"end":52.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.65971875,"end":54.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.515968750000006,"end":56.393468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.05159375,"end":58.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.53659375,"end":59.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.66284375,"end":62.75534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.59909375,"end":64.89846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.18534375,"end":65.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.51846875000001,"end":67.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.10471875,"end":69.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.21409375,"end":70.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.54721875,"end":72.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.74534375,"end":74.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.95596875000001,"end":75.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.91784375,"end":78.31409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.29284375,"end":82.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.80284375000001,"end":83.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.60846875,"end":85.92471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.46471875,"end":86.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.56159375,"end":88.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.94534375,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.53159375,"end":92.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.11346875000001,"end":94.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.71221875,"end":97.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.53034375,"end":99.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.77909375,"end":100.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.36096875000001,"end":105.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.37721875000001,"end":109.97159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.32596875,"end":113.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.63346875,"end":116.33346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.78909375,"end":118.66221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.89409375000001,"end":120.51846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.07534375,"end":121.80096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.93159375,"end":125.98596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.76221875,"end":127.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.99409375000002,"end":129.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.83346875,"end":132.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.80346875,"end":135.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.95909375000002,"end":137.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.45659375,"end":140.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.97096875,"end":142.23659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.60784375,"end":147.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.22721875000002,"end":152.58096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.18846875,"end":154.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.04034375,"end":156.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.33971875,"end":158.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.89221875,"end":160.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.79471875000002,"end":162.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.51159375,"end":165.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.46909375,"end":169.82721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.56971875000002,"end":172.30784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.01659375,"end":174.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.66596875000002,"end":178.16346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.82159375,"end":179.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.96909375,"end":180.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.07034375,"end":182.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.66909375,"end":183.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.40721875,"end":185.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.38159375,"end":187.52909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.64284375000003,"end":190.00971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.36409375000002,"end":192.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.65909375,"end":194.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.32534375,"end":196.65846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.39659375000002,"end":199.61159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.84346875,"end":202.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.85159375,"end":204.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.63159375,"end":208.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.46659375000002,"end":211.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.50409375,"end":218.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.95034375,"end":223.30409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.50659375,"end":224.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.53159375,"end":228.01221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.85596875000002,"end":230.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.37034375000002,"end":233.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.01971875,"end":235.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.26846875,"end":239.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.68971875000003,"end":245.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.18659375000001,"end":248.63346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.29159375,"end":249.84846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.06784375,"end":251.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.43471875000003,"end":255.70409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.04159375,"end":258.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.48409375,"end":262.77471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.97721875,"end":264.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.81659375000004,"end":268.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.17034375000003,"end":270.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":270.80721875,"end":271.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.81971875,"end":278.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.10971875,"end":282.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.28221875,"end":283.26096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.03721875,"end":286.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.00721875,"end":290.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.93909375000004,"end":293.04846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.47034375000004,"end":294.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.90471875000003,"end":298.21221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.44846875,"end":301.87409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.17784375,"end":304.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.21971875,"end":306.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.10534375000003,"end":309.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.21471875000003,"end":310.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.83471875000004,"end":321.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.05659375000005,"end":322.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.38971875000004,"end":332.73846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.02534375000005,"end":340.72034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.20971875000004,"end":347.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.97659375,"end":347.99346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.19596875,"end":358.28721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.60346875000005,"end":365.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":366.16784375000003,"end":369.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.23471875,"end":370.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.26409375000003,"end":371.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.76596875,"end":376.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.61346875000004,"end":378.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":380.17409375,"end":380.62971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.27096875,"end":382.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.73909375000005,"end":383.46471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.07221875000005,"end":385.05096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.11409375000005,"end":387.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.78034375000004,"end":390.63659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.09221875000003,"end":392.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.80909375000005,"end":394.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.83409375,"end":396.61034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.03221875,"end":398.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.61846875000003,"end":398.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.66471875,"end":403.32659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.56284375,"end":409.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":409.62096875000003,"end":410.54909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":410.63346875,"end":412.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.19846875,"end":414.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.78471875,"end":418.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.42534375,"end":422.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":423.42471875,"end":425.73659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.44534375,"end":427.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.50846875,"end":428.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.39846875,"end":430.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":430.93409375000005,"end":434.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":435.33846875,"end":436.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":437.05971875,"end":438.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":439.55721875,"end":443.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":444.41721875,"end":448.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.36596875000004,"end":449.36159375000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":21.683,"text":"委員天才發言。主席、各位委員、有請秘書長。請做秘書長。秘書長好。是。"},{"start":29.372,"end":51.657,"text":"這個憲法徵修條文的第十條第十二項規定國家因依民族意願保障原住民組織地位及政治參與而且還特別明定要制定原住民族基本法以及還有很多相關的法例在105年8月1號"},{"start":55.58,"end":56.06,"text":"案案案案案案案"},{"start":79.469,"end":105.436,"text":"這是他的承諾在105年8月1號就任之後向全國的人民承諾會很快的將原住民組織法及原住民組土地及海域法送到立法院甚至行政院的秘書長在105年年底"},{"start":106.451,"end":134.592,"text":"也特別先是還且講了兩次會在105年12月底以前把這個原住民族土地及海域法送到立法院但是因為第九屆、第十屆的立法院民進黨絕對多數所以相關他們不需要的法律他們就請行政院就不要送來"},{"start":135.987,"end":164.755,"text":"所以已經承諾的事情寧可防悔不送來是這樣的一個情形所以呢本席跟高金素梅立委特別提出這個立法院組織法第三十三條的條文因為現行的條文對基於少數的原住民立委而言完全必須要看這個"},{"start":166.499,"end":187.231,"text":"政黨到底要不要支持顏住民的條款所以在這樣一個情形之下我們顏住民的立委要去推動的相關的這些法律必須要看哪一個政黨願意支持而在過去的這麼多年來立法院過去"},{"start":188.663,"end":203.293,"text":"都很重視原住民,但是在過去的八年來,我們非常非常的失望。我就舉個例子。就業服務法,民國81年三讀通過,其中24條,當時的憲法還是叫三包。"},{"start":212.554,"end":229.97,"text":"但是當時的就業服務法三讀通過的時候原住民的立委說商包要行政院的草案送到立法院是商包就業服務法原住民的立委說要改為原住民雖然憲法"},{"start":231.954,"end":258.362,"text":"在民國83年8月1號才改為上報才改為那個原住民但是具謂服務法在立法院尊重原住民的情況之下在民國81年具謂服務法就用原住民這三個字所以立法院是一個展現人民意志的地方而基於少數的原住民"},{"start":259.54,"end":283.049,"text":"怎麼樣去落實政府、中華民國政府怎麼樣去落實憲法徵修條文第十條第十二項的規定就是要靠立法院所以要靠立法院就必須怎麼樣去重視原住民的立法委員的意見所以本席跟高金素梅立委特別提到"},{"start":285.433,"end":308.898,"text":"對於這個黨團的成立,原住民立委應該要有一個自主性,而不要受到相關的這些,因為加入原住民黨團的時候,原來的那個政黨就必須要退出,像這樣的怎麼樣去解決,所以本席提出這樣的一個條文。秘書長你的意見如何?"},{"start":309.885,"end":309.905,"text":"案。"},{"start":323.964,"end":347.389,"text":"檔團第一項裡面是排除嘛但是那個總數啊檔團的這個總數現在是五個那我有跟他報告如果這個立法政策決定要修正的話那就要加上那幾個文字的我已經有跟高金委員報告過我這邊其實文字是可以再檢討但怎麼樣去那個去保障這個部分"},{"start":348.308,"end":368.594,"text":"另外就是上次有跟這個秘書長稍微提了一下原住民的立法委員的選期因為是台、彭、金吧但是現在立法院的所有的對立委個別的相關的權益都是用7億的立委的去規劃像這個"},{"start":372.956,"end":376.097,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案．立法院組織法部分條文修正草案"},{"start":399.947,"end":424.005,"text":"從新走雲到滿洲鄉還要兩個小時六分鐘所以這麼遠的時間一個小時加三十四分加兩個小時加六分等於是三個多小時將近四個小時我只是舉例子如果從花蓮出發要到滿洲鄉也一樣搭火車到訪寮三個小時三十五分鐘訪寮到滿洲要一個多小時"},{"start":426.502,"end":426.862,"text":"草案案例"}]}},{"id":"151745","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151745","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/37a05b44d500ce15eba87d9a0655ad13e44e652c0c420c23c68e374cd8c4bed073bacbc480bcfdff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯建銘","委員發言時間":"11:05:00 - 11:16:12","影片長度":"00:11:12","會議時間":"2024-04-25T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員高金素梅等23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。\n四、\n（一）繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（二）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案。\n（三）繼續審查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」案。\n（四）繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（五）繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（六）審查委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案。\n【第四案（六）如經院會復議，則不予審查】）","date":"2024-04-25","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-17"},"duration":672,"end_time":"2024-04-25T11:16:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-25T11:05:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":514,"blocks":[["柯委員建銘：（11時5分）主席、各位委員同仁。剛才吳思瑤委員講了一句很重要的話，臺灣是華人世界裡面民主價值的典範，這是我們國會的驕傲，但是我們都知道整個國會改革是本會期重中之重的法案，整個過程經過兩個禮拜、4次會議，今天委員會能夠開多久還在未定之天，因為傅總召終於出現了，也許到質詢結束以後，因為接下去有比較深水區的所謂國會改革版本，又有職權行使法，所以今天我要在這裡講，禮拜一那天我們開完會以後，直接沒收了委員會，換言之，整個過程來看，國民黨所有作為，上禮拜一他們當召委的時候，直接碾壓過去，這種會當然我們會提散會動議來阻卻他胡作非為。到了禮拜四我們審的時候，換他提散會動議，他是不讓你開，就是不讓我們的版本來開會；這禮拜一也是一樣，這禮拜是比較不具敏感性的另外三法，他直接給你散會動議，換言之就是沒收委員會，所以當天我們記者會的標語叫什麼？國會輓歌，藍白聯手沒收委員會。這是非常嚴重的事情啊！以後藍白過半的時候，立法院任何委員會、任何專案報告，只要藍白認為對他們不利的話，他馬上給你提散會動議，國會什麼時候可以走到今天呢？蔣介石在世也不敢如此。過去國民黨也曾經國會多數過，我們首次執政的時候，它也不敢如此，三十年來，這一刻是最荒謬的一刻。","禮拜二程序委員會所提出的法案，對於國會議員參加秘密會議要有一些規範，乃至於行政首長等等到大陸去要有規範，程序委員會給你完全封殺，讓臺灣的民主倒退三十年。從我進來的時候，國民黨就是多數，我們大部分時間是在反對黨，於是乎程序委員會一直擋案，光馬英九執政那8年，總共擋了一萬多個案子，這很驚悚吧？今天重為如此，一個沒收了委員會，一個程序委員會把你擋住，請問這個國會還有存在的價值嗎？這國會還run得下去嗎？這難道不是民主輓歌嗎？今天我們在這裡好像可以繼續質詢下去，他是沒收你質詢、沒收你所有提案說明、沒收你逐條討論的空間，今天不是國民黨良心發現，等一下傅崐萁委員出現的時候，大家可以知道傅崐萁和黃國昌兩人之厲害所在，所以今天大家好好看。","接下來我要講，整個國家在選完以後，立法院2月20日開議到今天已經兩個月，這兩個月時間發生什麼事情呢？整個國家的軸線完全傾斜、扭曲，天地顛倒，毀憲亂政，無所不用其極，國會不斷的擴權。我要講一句話，請各位注意聽，全世界沒有一個政黨乃至於政治人物會表演自殺式的神風特攻隊，但此時此刻，國民黨跟民眾黨、傅崐萁跟黃國昌兩個聯手是表演什麼？大家睜大眼睛看，他們表演自殺式的神風特攻隊，何其愚蠢啊！我不相信民意不會反撲，他整個國會改革完全脫離憲政框架，須修憲的部分，他用修法來完成，釋字585號講得很清楚……是可以罰鍰，而國民黨的版本居然是用刑法伺候──三年以下有期徒刑。所有官員於質詢的時候，他虛偽陳述、拒絕提供答案，有藐視國會之嫌──三年以下有期徒刑。你又要官員不可以反質詢，職權行使法已經修到即問即答，當然是共用這個時間，過去立法院在國民黨執政的時候，吳敦義專門反質詢的，而且他口才又好，但是這沒有辦法，大家對證的。除不可以反質詢外，包括行政院長總質詢的時候，虛偽陳述──處一年以下有期徒刑，難怪在傅崐萁在2月的時候就喊出一句話：大家注意聽！我讓你們民進黨找不到官員來做。請問未來國會是要走向這樣嗎？這個比北韓、比任何國家都還糟糕，蔣介石在世也不敢如此，也就是兩個人，黃國昌跟傅崐萁兩人聯手合作的時候，可以決定整個臺灣的未來，他們甚至認為他可以轉動全球，難怪傅崐萁趕到大陸去，馬英九去了以後，交代反滲透法、國安五法都要重修，傅崐萁難道是去述旨嗎？還是去領旨嗎？所以這個很荒謬的行為一直發生在國民黨身上。國民黨這些委員的政治前途你們自己要顧，國民黨的立法委員，有的是選出來的，或是不分區的也罷，你要把道理講清楚，你們共同在毀壞你們兩個政黨，縱容表演自殺式的，民意不會反撲嗎？","所以黃國昌講了一句話，只要不妨礙他的國會改革，他基本上是冷眼旁觀。但是另外一句話就叫為虎作倀，這根本在為虎作倀嘛！什麼冷眼旁觀？你天天直播罵柯建銘，你安撫一些小草，你認為民意是如此嗎？他今天來質詢，從來不面對問題，迴避問題，圍魏救趙，講一些零星的問題、立法機制的問題，這是黃國昌自己要去面對的，但是你們兩個人聯手的時候，造成整個國家的傷害、對你們政黨的傷害，人民不可能信任你們。尤其我們看到朱立倫居然說520後要叫總統來做國情報告，要即問即答，優於總質詢。總統做國情報告沒有問題啊，但是即問即答，還要書面報告，這個做得到嗎？這違憲耶！朱立倫、傅崐萁、黃國昌把他們黨和國家整個毀掉，在合憲性底下，你們要做什麼都沒問題，憲法規定得很清楚啊！第四條規定，得來做國情報告，但是憲法的設計上是權力分立原則，互相制衡的。依據第五十三條，國家最高行政機關就是行政院。第六十三條規定，立法院的職權、立法委員的職權是議決預算案、法律案、宣戰案、媾和案、條約案等等。然後，憲法增修條文寫得很清楚，總統也是民選的，他的民意基礎比我們任何一個人還高，他得到最多票，所以憲法增修條文講得很清楚，他指派行政院長，是他任命的，來立法院做施政報告以及施政方針，有備詢的義務；但是第三條寫得很清楚，相對的立法院有質詢之權，這是憲法框架上的。你創設憲法所沒有的東西，然後去毀憲亂政、無限擴權，當然是違憲。我不知道朱立倫主席想到什麼地方去，我看到在野黨所謂的菁英，從馬英九以降都是如此，我們希望國家不是這樣傾斜的。馬英九回來可以說要修反滲透法，乃至於國安五法都要修，各位要瞭解民意在看待你們，歷史這一刻是對臺灣極度的影響，我們每一個人都要向憲法低頭。這是憲政時刻，所以不要胡扯、胡說八道，國民黨立委沒有人敢很用力捍衛他的版本，一副無奈狀，因為後面有傅崐萁在、後面有黃國昌在，就是如此嘛！你們的無奈寫在臉上，你們的「幹譙」在內心裡面，我們都很清楚。各位都是立法委員，大家同時站起來，都站出來捍衛國家尊嚴、捍衛社會正義。請不要忘記，我最後再陳述，民意一定會反撲，你注意看。"],["主席：謝謝柯委員。","接下來有請鄭委員天財發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":160,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-17","speakers":["鍾佳濱","范雲","羅智強","陳俊宇","沈伯洋","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","黃國昌","林思銘","吳思瑤","柯建銘","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","王鴻薇","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","吳宗憲","謝龍介"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-04-25"],"gazette_id":"1133401","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133401_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法院組織法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)委員高金素梅等\n23人擬具「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(三)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三條、第五條及第三十二條條文修正草案」案、(四)委員高金素梅等17人擬具「立法院組\n織法第三十三條條文修正草案」案；二、繼續審查(一)民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條\n之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案、(二)委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正\n草案」案、(三)委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案；三、繼續審查\n( 一) 民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」\n案、( 二) 委員賴瑞隆等16 人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草\n案」案；四、(一)繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(二)繼\n續審查委員呂玉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法第十五條之一條文修正草案」案、(三)繼續審\n查委員呂玉玲等16人擬具「立法院職權行使法增訂第二十八條之三及第二十八條之四條文草案」\n案、( 四 ) 繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra Kaaw 等19 人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」\n案、(五)繼續審查委員翁曉玲等17人擬具「立法院職權行使法部分條文修正草案」案、(六)審查\n委員羅智強等22人擬具「立法院職權行使法第二十五條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133401_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.4697187500000001,"end":2.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.805343750000002,"end":13.429718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.138468750000001,"end":15.218468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.230968750000002,"end":18.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.77471875,"end":23.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.49971875,"end":25.984718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.997218750000002,"end":28.836593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.97159375,"end":30.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.40159375,"end":34.118468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.759718750000005,"end":42.69096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.66971875,"end":46.62284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.23034375,"end":48.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.49596875,"end":55.229093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.836593750000006,"end":58.73909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.48159375,"end":61.50659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.844093750000006,"end":63.666593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.22346875000001,"end":65.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.79284375,"end":67.58159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.49284375,"end":71.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.64846875,"end":73.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.67346875,"end":74.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.68596875,"end":78.58409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.00596875000001,"end":81.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.26284375,"end":85.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.21159375,"end":88.23659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.64159375,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.10534375,"end":92.45534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.46784375,"end":95.02034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.01596875,"end":99.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.57659375,"end":100.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.28534375000001,"end":101.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.95596875000001,"end":103.01909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.37346875,"end":104.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.24659375,"end":106.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.44034375000001,"end":109.75221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.22471875000001,"end":113.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.97096875000001,"end":115.06784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.14784375,"end":120.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.21034375,"end":121.93596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.57721875000001,"end":124.33221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.75409375000001,"end":126.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.31909375000001,"end":128.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.90534375000001,"end":133.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.78221875,"end":135.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.90846875,"end":138.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.67596875,"end":140.65034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.59534375,"end":143.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":144.83534375000002,"end":147.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.58159375,"end":151.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.30659375000002,"end":158.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.79096875000002,"end":159.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.96784375000001,"end":163.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.22471875000002,"end":166.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.05971875,"end":168.91596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.60784375,"end":171.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.57346875000002,"end":175.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.23534375,"end":178.23096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.90596875,"end":184.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.84596875000003,"end":186.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.78221875,"end":189.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.43596875,"end":190.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.83659375000002,"end":192.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.09346875,"end":195.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.67534375000002,"end":198.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.00409375,"end":206.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.52596875,"end":209.71971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.29346875000002,"end":211.52534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.74471875,"end":212.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.70659375000002,"end":213.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.22534375,"end":215.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.52034375000002,"end":224.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.06346875000003,"end":226.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.76346875000002,"end":228.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.43409375000002,"end":229.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.76721875,"end":230.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.20159375,"end":235.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.33159375000002,"end":238.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.99784375000002,"end":239.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.19596875000002,"end":241.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.84534375,"end":243.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.14471875,"end":246.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.24971875000003,"end":248.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.08909375000002,"end":254.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.16409375,"end":257.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.26909375,"end":258.82596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.58534375,"end":260.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.52596875,"end":262.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.82534375,"end":263.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.37784375,"end":265.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.83721875000003,"end":268.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.40659375,"end":270.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.36409375,"end":272.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.96721875000003,"end":274.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.89096875,"end":276.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.59534375000004,"end":280.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.76346875,"end":281.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.48471875,"end":284.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.79659375,"end":285.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.24784375,"end":287.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.56409375000004,"end":289.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.43284375,"end":292.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.91346875,"end":297.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.97596875,"end":299.54534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.91221875,"end":304.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.26596875,"end":305.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.05909375000005,"end":309.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.88971875000004,"end":310.83471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":311.44221875,"end":312.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.21409375,"end":313.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.56409375000004,"end":316.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.87596875,"end":318.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":319.47471875,"end":323.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":324.43596875000003,"end":326.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.78159375,"end":328.75596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.24534375,"end":333.91971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.45971875000004,"end":335.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.53534375000004,"end":339.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.41659375,"end":347.11596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.12846875,"end":349.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.54159375,"end":351.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.90846875,"end":352.60034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.14034375,"end":354.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.59159375,"end":356.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.78534375000004,"end":357.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.89034375,"end":361.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.06721875,"end":362.55659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.69159375000004,"end":364.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.12159375000005,"end":366.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.52221875000004,"end":369.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.34034375000005,"end":375.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":375.76971875000004,"end":378.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.38096875,"end":380.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.00096875,"end":381.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.01346875,"end":383.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.32534375,"end":385.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.94534375,"end":387.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.67471875,"end":391.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.66596875000005,"end":392.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.53909375,"end":394.21409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.24346875000003,"end":395.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.80034375,"end":396.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.09971875,"end":399.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.91784375000003,"end":400.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.71096875,"end":402.53346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":403.12409375000004,"end":406.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.29221875,"end":410.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.81909375000004,"end":414.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.64971875000003,"end":416.37096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.21471875000003,"end":418.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.22721875,"end":419.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.18471875,"end":421.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.31096875000003,"end":424.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.57221875000005,"end":426.39471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.51284375,"end":428.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.11159375000005,"end":431.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":431.71034375000005,"end":432.87471875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":433.22909375,"end":433.66784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.00534375,"end":434.73096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.93346875000003,"end":436.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.99221875,"end":438.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.00034375,"end":441.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":443.11784375,"end":444.68721875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.54784375,"end":446.64471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":447.74159375000005,"end":448.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.56409375000004,"end":450.34034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.04909375000005,"end":452.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.42846875000004,"end":456.06096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":456.78659375,"end":460.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":461.22471875,"end":463.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.70534375000005,"end":467.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":467.78909375,"end":469.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.78034375000004,"end":471.46784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":472.17659375000005,"end":474.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.46721875000003,"end":476.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.54284375000003,"end":478.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":478.90971875,"end":481.35659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.09909375,"end":483.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.87096875000003,"end":486.94221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":487.24596875000003,"end":488.35971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.93346875000003,"end":489.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.01346875,"end":490.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":490.77284375000005,"end":493.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.75971875000005,"end":495.76784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.49346875000003,"end":497.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.99534375,"end":499.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.30721875,"end":505.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":506.46659375,"end":507.85034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.62659375000004,"end":511.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.4909687500001,"end":513.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":514.09409375,"end":515.2078437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":516.54096875,"end":516.5747187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":517.60409375,"end":519.3928437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":520.03409375,"end":521.3840937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":521.7553437500001,"end":523.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":524.3034687500001,"end":529.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":529.41659375,"end":530.4797187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":532.0322187500001,"end":534.7322187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":535.08659375,"end":537.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":537.9722187500001,"end":538.8159687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.2547187499999,"end":541.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":541.68471875,"end":542.8659687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":543.5747187500001,"end":546.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":547.75971875,"end":551.6072187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.4172187500001,"end":559.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":560.3484687499999,"end":562.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.1328437500001,"end":564.5334687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.0903437500001,"end":568.7353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":569.4609687500001,"end":576.9028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.4934687500001,"end":579.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.21034375,"end":593.3390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":593.9297187500001,"end":594.8915937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":595.38096875,"end":596.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.0347187500001,"end":598.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":599.09346875,"end":600.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":600.2240937500001,"end":600.9497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":601.47284375,"end":605.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.6240937499999,"end":606.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.88534375,"end":608.7122187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.21846875,"end":610.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.4965937500001,"end":616.2890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":617.1328437500001,"end":617.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":618.61784375,"end":621.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.53721875,"end":625.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":625.5703437500001,"end":626.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.17346875,"end":628.8103437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.04659375,"end":629.0972187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":629.14784375,"end":632.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.52284375,"end":635.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.49284375,"end":637.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":637.7709687500001,"end":643.5590937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.91346875,"end":645.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":645.6515937500001,"end":646.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":647.4740937500001,"end":649.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.85346875,"end":652.5365937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":653.8022187500001,"end":654.2240937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":654.74721875,"end":655.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.31659375,"end":658.0547187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":658.3584687500002,"end":659.4553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":659.65784375,"end":662.5772187500002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":663.06659375,"end":668.0278437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.569,"end":25.187,"text":"建民尋答請主席各位委員同仁剛才吳思耀委員講了一句很重要的話台灣是法院世界裡面民主價值的典範這是我們國會的驕傲"},{"start":27.062,"end":42.395,"text":"但是呢我們都知道整個國會改革是本會期中重中之重的法案那整個過程也許今天經過兩禮拜四次會議今天可能委員會能夠開多久還是還未定之天"},{"start":43.72,"end":67.073,"text":"因為副總操終於出現了,也許到執行結束以後,因為接下去有比較深水區的所謂國會改革版本,因為之前新司法所以今天我要再講說,那天我們開完會以後,就是禮拜一,直接沒收委員會"},{"start":68.547,"end":94.553,"text":"反正換言之就是說,整個過程來看,我們都所有作為,他們當招委的時候,上禮拜一當招委的時候,直接擬要過去。所以這種會議當然我們會提三位同意,來主卻他輔助會委員。當然禮拜四我們審的時候,他還來三位同意,他是不讓你開,就是我們版本不讓你開。"},{"start":96.055,"end":121.666,"text":"那禮拜一這禮拜一也是一樣這禮拜一是這個另外三個法比較不具敏感性的他直接給你三位都議換言之就是沒收委員會所以當天我們記者會的標語叫什麼我會晚歌南白聯手沒收委員會這是非常嚴重的事情啊為什麼呢"},{"start":122.628,"end":151.486,"text":"以後藍白他們過班的時候,另外還有六個委員會,六個草案報告,只要我們當六位,因為他們有供給不立法的話,他馬上可以提三位都議。國會什麼時候可以走到今天呢?蔣介石在這也不敢如此。過去國民黨也曾經國會投訴過,我們少數執政的時候,他也不敢如此。整個三十年來,這一刻是最荒謬的一刻。"},{"start":153.322,"end":175.242,"text":"那我看禮拜二陳希維委員會什麼樣所提的法案對於國會議員參加民意會議要有一個規範乃至於行政所長等等到大陸去要有規範陳希維給你完全封殺本來這個民主倒退了30年"},{"start":177.644,"end":195.577,"text":"黨會三十年。國民黨過去,從我進來的時候,本本都是多數,我們大部分時間在反對黨。於是乎陳旭迴一致擋案。官方馬英九執政那八年,總共黨的一萬多個案子。一萬多個案子,這樣很驚悚吧?"},{"start":196.741,"end":214.351,"text":"那今天從為如此,一個默說委會、一個誠意委員會擋住,請問這個國會還有存在的價值嗎?這國會還亂了下去嗎?這難道不是民主人哥嗎?今天我們在這裡,好像可以經營下去。"},{"start":216.567,"end":240.927,"text":"他是默說你所有提案說明,默說你逐條討論的空間。今天不是國民黨良心發現,等一下傅文綺委員出現的時候,大家都知道傅文綺跟黃國昕兩人是厲害所在。所以我們今天大家好好看。接下來我要講說,"},{"start":242.888,"end":265.265,"text":"整個國家在政權在整個選完以後我們一晚開議2月20到今天兩個月這兩個月兩月時間發生什麼事情呢?整個國家的軸線完全傾斜扭曲天地顛倒北線亂震無所不用其極國會不斷扣錢我要講一句話說請各位注意聽"},{"start":271.414,"end":299.127,"text":"全世界沒有一個政黨乃至於曾永烏會表演自殺式的神功特工隊但此時此刻國民黨跟民眾黨、胡文綺跟黃國昌兩個連鎖是表演什麼讓大家睜大眼睛看他表演自殺性的神功特工隊何其愚蠢啊我不相信民意不會反撲"},{"start":300.95,"end":323.172,"text":"他整個國會改革完全脫移現任框架,以稀修憲的部分他用修法來完成。五八二四是講得很清楚啊,他是中級手段是可以罰款,既然國民黨版本是二期刑法事後三年以下有期徒刑。"},{"start":324.451,"end":344.484,"text":"好!立法院在所有官員一執行的時候以七位陳述記者提供答案以我藐視國會之前撒你一哈你立法院也不可以反執行已經執行修到幾問幾答當然是共同這個時間過去這個代理委員"},{"start":348.291,"end":360.846,"text":"國民黨執政的時候吳征宜專門反執勤的而且他口才又好但是這是沒有辦法大家對證的不可以反執勤"},{"start":362.139,"end":376.707,"text":"所以包括行政院長一總之因為說稀微陳述一年以下有許多刑難怪傅文綺在二月初的二月十二就喊出議長一個話大家注意聽一句話當你們民進黨找不到官員來做請問這是未來國會是走向這樣嗎這個比北韓比共和國現在還糟糕董建勳暫時也不敢如此"},{"start":391.738,"end":413.758,"text":"也就是兩個人,黃國昌跟胡文綺兩人手合作的時候可以決定這個台灣的未來。他們甚至認為他可以轉動全球。兩位胡文綺往後趕到大陸去,哪一個既然要交代反送中法,萬一搞到重修?"},{"start":414.719,"end":440.681,"text":"賴瑞隆等13人擬具:「立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案案 案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正草案 、立法院組織法第三十二條條條文修正"},{"start":443.174,"end":460.46,"text":"重重表演自殺式,民意不會橫幅嗎?所以黃國昌講了一句話,只要不妨礙他的國會改革,他基本上是人眼旁觀。但是另外一句話叫為虎作倉,這根本就是為虎作倉嘛。"},{"start":464.212,"end":475.761,"text":"實問人員旁觀:「你天天直播罵柯建民,你安握一些小草,你認為民意是如此嗎?」他今天來執行,從來不面對問題,回避問題,回味舊造,講一些零星的問題,立法機制問題。"},{"start":482.31,"end":502.763,"text":"這是黃國昌自己要去面對的,但是你們兩人合作,這樣合作的時候造成整個國家傷害,對你們政黨的傷害,人民不可能信任你們。尤其我們看到朱立文竟然講說要叫總統來做國情報告,要急問急答,優於董事群。"},{"start":508.686,"end":511.068,"text":"請問總統這種文明報告沒有問題啊當然是質疑問其他還要輸入報告這個做得到嗎?這違憲的在合憲性底下連住民把這個黨這位黃文綺和黃昌把他們的黨和國家整個毀去掉"},{"start":532.076,"end":551.365,"text":"在核心議題下,你要做什麼都沒問題。憲法規定很清楚啊,第四條就要來做國情報告。但是憲法的設計上是潛力分立原則,互相制衡的。國家最高...有三條國家最高情任機關,就是行政院。"},{"start":552.475,"end":576.397,"text":"那個三條規定,立法院的職權,立法院的職權是一節、一宗案、法律案、宣戰、過河條案等等。然後香港政策條約很清楚,總統也是明顯的,他民意紀錄比我們那個委員還高,他得的做過票。所以香港政策條約講很清楚,他只派行政院長,他任命的,來立法院做施政報告,也是施政方針。"},{"start":577.594,"end":606.773,"text":"有備刑的義務當相對立法院有執行之前這是憲法框架上你創設憲法所謂的東西然後去做違憲端正無限擴權當然是違憲我不知道朱英文主席他在想到什麼地方去整個我看到整個在野黨所謂精英從馬英九以降都是如此"},{"start":607.934,"end":628.311,"text":"我們希望國家不是這樣傾斜的,來久回來可以說要修反身正法,乃至於國安無法都要修。各位,要了解民意在看待你們,歷史這一刻是對台灣極度的影響,我們每一個人都要向憲法低頭。"},{"start":629.612,"end":652.353,"text":"這是憲政時刻,所以不要胡說八道,然後每一個民進黨立委沒有人敢很用力判分他的版本,因為無奈狀,因為後面有胡文綺在,後面有黃國昌在。這就是如此嘛,你們很無奈寫在臉上,你們敢搖在內心裡面,我們都很清楚。"},{"start":653.834,"end":667.873,"text":"各位,都是立法院,大家同時站起來,如果站出來,捍衛國家尊嚴,捍衛所有爭議,請不要忘記,我最後再整述,民意一定會反撲,大家注意看。"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}