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請主席宣布開會"},{"start":1732.142,"end":1753.296,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第17次全體委員會議一事錄實驗中華民國113年4月25日星期四上午9時至12時5分下午20時至5時8分地點本院紅樓302會議室出席委員審委員發會等13人列席委員閣委員如君等8人列席官員立法院秘書長周萬來等人"},{"start":1754.777,"end":1770.725,"text":"主席．召集委員嘉賓．報告事項．宣讀上次會議事錄決定確定．討論事項．繼續審查民進黨黨團擬具立法院組織法部分條文修正草案等15案．本次會有委員審發會等14人提出質詢．文富坤齊等2人提出書面質詢．"},{"start":1772.186,"end":1796.219,"text":"決議一報告及詢答完畢二為立法院組織法部分條文修正草案等四案進行逐條審查第三條第五條第十四條第十五條增訂第十九條之二第二十四條第三十二條第三十三條及增訂第三十三條之三均保留送院會處理第二十八條修正如下第二十八條第二十五條及第二十六條所列之研究員副研究員助理研究員"},{"start":1797.139,"end":1820.275,"text":"得准用教育人員任用條例聘任之前項聘任人員之臨聘原額待遇業務管理及考核事項由立法院定之全案審查完並按理據審查報告提請院會公決需叫黨團協商院會討論時由中召集委員嘉賓出席說明條次引述條文部分文字及法制用自用與授權主席及事人員整理"},{"start":1821.335,"end":1848.208,"text":"立法委員行為法第7條之一及第30條條文修正草案等3案立法院議事規則第47條第48條及第52條條文修正草案等2案及立法院職權刑事法部分條文修正草案等6案均另定期繼續審查提案條文均已宣讀完畢四委員諮詢時要求提供相關資料會議書面答覆者請相關機關請速送交個別委員及本會經表決通過散會動議宣讀完畢"},{"start":1854.022,"end":1873.578,"text":"我們先介紹在場委員、審發會委員接著介紹列席官員監察院秘書長李君秘書長副秘書長劉文世副秘書長監察業務處王貞華處長監察調查處楊昌憲處長"},{"start":1882.705,"end":1910.072,"text":"公職人員產產申報處處長陳美妍綜合業務處處長汪玲玲人事事主任劉嘉惠社福未還委員會主秘施貞揚交通採購委員會主秘鄭旭浩國家人權委員會代理執行秘書邱秀蘭"},{"start":1911.892,"end":1939.159,"text":"法規研究委員會執行秘書黃敬興監察委員紀律委員會執行秘書吳育湘權序部法規司司長雷辰行政院人事行政總處培訓考用處專門委員賴佳陽那我們"},{"start":1942,"end":1952.226,"text":"議事錄宣讀完畢了,那我們現在先確定議事錄,請問各位就上次的會議事錄有無錯誤或遺漏沒有的話,議事錄確定"},{"start":1959.428,"end":1981.163,"text":"現在我宣讀本次議程討論事項審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具《監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案》我們現在先進行提案說明及報告因為委員沒有到我們現在先請機關報告"},{"start":1989.574,"end":1996.272,"text":"請機關代表報告那發言時間是3分鐘那我們現在先請監察院李秘書長報告"},{"start":2003.411,"end":2019.29,"text":"主席各位先生各位女士大家早監察院今天非常榮幸應邀到這裡來說明有關立法委員徐巧芯等17位提供所謂監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二的修正草案以下是我們的報告"},{"start":2020.431,"end":2037.58,"text":"現在的組織法第三條之一是因應1992年的修憲將監察院由原來的國會改成不是國會那他的方式提名方式也由總統提名經立法院同意任命之做了一個改變所以我們就參照考試院"},{"start":2038.48,"end":2061.909,"text":"考試委員還有司法院的大法官這樣的體力我們列了6項的相關規定資格限制在109年為了因應國家人權委員會的成立另外又加了第7款分別是第一款是曾經擔任立委或直轄市議員兩任以上第二款是擔任法官10年或檢察官10年以上"},{"start":2062.489,"end":2091.582,"text":"第三款是檢任,擔任檢任委員10年以上第四款是擔任大學教授10年以上第五款是專門職業,包括律師、醫師、會計師15年以上第六款是服務政治經驗或是從事新聞文化工作的相關活動那第七款是因應國家人權委員會成立以後讓我們對人權關心的議題的人士所以這七款裡面,其實這一次的提案有關徐巧芯委員等17人的提案"},{"start":2092.122,"end":2110.16,"text":"那有關刪除第一款跟第六款其實會造成相當的影響性過去在第四屆裡面我們有立委轉任的有六位在第五屆有五位在第六屆也有五位那另外跟第六款的部分在第四屆的時候有三位"},{"start":2110.7,"end":2132.179,"text":"那在第五屆的時候有七位那第六屆的時候有四位所以加起來第一款跟第六款將近佔了我們的比例大概到三成到四成左右如果刪除第一款跟第六款事實上會造成總統提名的限縮那這樣是不是妥適請大院佐以參考"},{"start":2134.12,"end":2157.091,"text":"有關針列第二條,限縮所謂的10年內不得參加政黨或政治活動。這個部分有兩個部分,第一個參加政黨活動是人民的集會結社自由,所以在監察委員擔任之前都可以參加,我們不願意有限制人民集會結社自由的現象。"},{"start":2157.771,"end":2158.091,"text":"其餘機關報告請參閱書面"},{"start":2183.863,"end":2184.564,"text":"提案說明及報告提案說明時間為3分鐘"},{"start":2214,"end":2242.167,"text":"主席好大家好那這次呢本案今天送進來的是有關於監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二的修正草案對照表那在現行的條文之下呢我們看到所謂的擔任監察委員的資格呢需要滿其中的一些資格那其中呢是要擔任立法委員任以上或是指甲式"},{"start":2243.707,"end":2244.288,"text":"議員兩任以上"},{"start":2261.255,"end":2278.589,"text":"這就等於是應該在五院行使中立、客觀權力的人他本身就已經有了政治形態跟意識形態的色彩這點我們覺得是沒有意義的所以我們就把它給刪除了"},{"start":2280.47,"end":2299.13,"text":"現行條文第6條:「清廉正職,富有政治經驗或主持新聞文化等事業,深遇著住者。」這一條也相當的不清楚什麼叫做清廉正職呢?比方說我們現在的"},{"start":2300.891,"end":2325.36,"text":"監察院長陳菊社會上會認為她是一個清廉正直的人嗎?她在氣爆案的處理上面她在過去很多議題的處理上面她是一個清廉正直的人嗎?所以這個完全是一個主觀的認定再來富有政治經驗如果我們今天的監察院是需要富有政治經驗的"},{"start":2326.46,"end":2348.409,"text":"那為什麼不當立法委員就好呢?有很多其他的重要的位置都是能夠用富有政治經驗的人來擔任但是監察委員對全民來說他是要糾舉跟監察所有現在政府裡面的相關弊害如果他本身有所謂的政治經驗"},{"start":2349.369,"end":2373.946,"text":"他難保他會用他的政治色彩然後來處理事情就會變成大小眼半藍不半綠或是半綠不半藍或者是主持新聞文化事業生育卓越者這也是一樣的我們知道現在很多的媒體雖然形式上是中立但是我就問大家每天有看三立電視台嗎"},{"start":2375.347,"end":2399.577,"text":"三立電視台是一個中立的電視台嗎近電視是一個中立的電視台嗎這些很明顯的不中立的電視台我們能夠說他主持了新聞文化事業身遇卓越嗎我們能夠來請李政駿來擔任監察委員嗎這個是荒天下之大廟所以呢我們希望就是說呢"},{"start":2402.757,"end":2424.025,"text":"針對這個所謂的我們現在所看到的一些其實有政治色彩的那這一點或許我們還可以更深入的去討論何為政治色彩那在我的這個想法當中所謂的政治色彩包含是你曾經擔任過有可能幾年內擔任過政黨的黨員然後呢你可能"},{"start":2429.567,"end":2455.118,"text":"參加了政黨的活動包含是競選黨部的主委跟相關的幹部那等等的這些東西當然我們可以再進一步的界定但是要界定參加何種活動屬於有政治色彩一點都不難所以我相信在這樣的條文裡面我們還可以做更多的討論"},{"start":2456.118,"end":2456.318,"text":"主席"},{"start":2484.944,"end":2506.063,"text":"提案說明及機關報告都已經進行完畢我們現在開始進行詢答本會委員詢答時間為8分鐘非本會委員為4分鐘均不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記我們現在請登記第一位的黃國昌委員進行發言"},{"start":2519.987,"end":2524.811,"text":"會議A7的主席麻煩有請監察院林秘書長李秘書長秘書長好針對今天徐巧芯等17位委員所提出來的監察院組織法要把一些政治性的任命的資格把它消除這個修法的方向本席是同意的"},{"start":2546.107,"end":2562.599,"text":"但不過我覺得更根本的問題是什麼我覺得更根本的問題是當一年的預算到10億的監察院已經不再受人民信賴的時候這個我國憲政體制上面的盲腸"},{"start":2563.98,"end":2576.3,"text":"必須要被徹底的根除啊這已經不是監察委員啊積極資格的問題啊這個是一個根本沒有用的廢物監察院啊應該要把他廢止的問題啊秘書長您贊不贊成"},{"start":2578.241,"end":2605.441,"text":"這個要由修憲委員會來討論好當然是要由修憲委員會來討論嘛2020年您擔任總統府副秘書長的時候那個時候總統府成立一個廢考監專責平台我想要請教一下這個平台有達成任何效果嗎有協助第10屆第10屆有提出憲法修正案有提出憲法修正案對你確定嗎第10屆有啊包括廢除考監啊"},{"start":2606.946,"end":2611.899,"text":"最後出委員會的我們完成了沒有廢考協當然"},{"start":2613.92,"end":2636.677,"text":"對民進黨來講對國民黨來講上一屆的國會各自有各自的政治盤算人民不關心這件事啊人民關心的事情啊是如同剛剛秘書長所講的立法院什麼時候要有一個修憲委員會把這個考監廢除掉台灣民眾黨黨團的立場很清楚"},{"start":2637.808,"end":2666.766,"text":"監察院廢除我們希望這個會期跟其他兩大黨一起合作來完成這個重要的憲政改革的使命不過在這個之前修憲是立法院的職權是監察院的職權在這個之前監察院有監察院的職權繼續領納稅人的錢繼續在花工堂的同時我們當然期待監察院要有所作為嘛好那我們就進一步看了過去"},{"start":2667.967,"end":2689.128,"text":"光電弊案重生腐敗到讓人沒有辦法想像最近發生誇張的事情其實這也不是最近發生的事情這個只是因為為了要因應2024年總統大選刻意壓到選後才辦這個醜聞我去年談了非常的多了因細"},{"start":2690.816,"end":2706.49,"text":"大莊角、立洋集團的古聖輝、小谷在民進黨裡面是厚厚有名立洋集團的總部跟民進黨的黨部關係還匪淺但沒有關係我們依法論法就事論事"},{"start":2708.051,"end":2727.293,"text":"結果這一個英系的權貴力量集團古聖輝透過非法的方式騙到了台南七股的電酬許可那現在檢察官起訴檢察官起訴了以後大家才赫然發現腐敗的狀況還不只台南市政府的陳凱琳"},{"start":2728.254,"end":2742.75,"text":"腐敗的狀況連我們經濟部能源局光電組的組長全部都涉案這位林文信竟然還是2022年我們的模範公務員這樣的模範公務員監察院要不要啟動調查要不要啟動彈劾"},{"start":2745.74,"end":2763.706,"text":"跟黃委員報告有關光電案監察院前後調查過8個案那其中有關彰化縣大城鄉的鄉長還有苗栗山灣的鄉長還有台南市津巴局的局長還有後湖的鄉長都被彈劾就於您的部分你還少提了一個人嘛"},{"start":2764.571,"end":2788.367,"text":"就因細的陳凱...就因細的林哲琳嘛剛剛你在列...退嘛對好沒有關係啦針對林文信的案子監察院要不要啟動調查彈劾我們看委員委員如果認為說有新的證據他就可以提出彈劾新的證據就是針對林文信的這個案子之前有調查過嗎其他的光天案有對阿我說這個案子之前有調查過嗎"},{"start":2790.243,"end":2818.26,"text":"這個尚未結案這尚未結案嘛好我今天在立法院阿國會的殿堂公開呼籲阿監委醒醒阿醒醒阿該辦就辦阿趕快處理監察院一向該辦就辦下一個案子蘇丹紅的案子齁最近蘇丹紅的風波阿越滾越大到這個週末這個是今天報紙的版面"},{"start":2819.42,"end":2846.003,"text":"又出發了結果我們的食藥署署長吳秀梅說什麼說輸入的時間是在加強邊境檢查前加強邊境檢查前就是吳秀梅講了什麼講的2023年12月11號百分之百逐批查驗嘛問題是我們的食藥署跟台灣社會講2023年12月11號的時候有百分之百逐批查驗"},{"start":2848.429,"end":2875.429,"text":"實際上面的結果呢實際上面的結果是百分之百逐批查驗以後蘇丹紅的毒粉還是繼續流入的台灣市場我發現這個狀況以後我就覺得很奇怪所以我就質詢衛福部你們不是告訴台灣社會百分之百逐批查驗嗎逐批查驗有問題的在邊境什麼就要攔下來了嘛為什麼還會有蘇丹紅進來結果等到我在"},{"start":2877.028,"end":2905.37,"text":"立法院質詢了以後我們的衛福部還承認什麼承認說謊根本沒有百分之百啊主批查驗這個事情監察院要不要調查我們現在已經在調查中了需要多久這個要看委員的時間你們一般辦案的期限多久我們分為一般案件重大案件跟特殊重大案件這個是屬於什麼案件應該是重大案件所以重大案件是多久6個月6個月嘛沒有關係啊食安風暴不斷的擴大"},{"start":2907.087,"end":2914.207,"text":"衛福部所有主批茶葉現實上沒有今天我也是利用今天今天你們不用調查啦"},{"start":2915.632,"end":2940.359,"text":"因為已經都舉出來了啦萬福部也承認了啦監察院的調查到底細不細所有監察院的調查報告彈劾的結果在監察院的網站都有嘛全國人民通通都可以公平啦好 下一個問題監察院重要的原則是不是行政中立獨立行使職權沒有錯啊監察委員可以服選嗎不可以服選"},{"start":2942.369,"end":2968.891,"text":"不可以輔選嘛來我今天公開檢舉監察院行政中立獨立行使職權任職期間不可以從事政治活動剛剛政治活動秘書長也有提到嘛監察院相關的規範通通都有講什麼是政治活動那就奇怪囉去年年底的時候監察院院長陳菊跑去高雄的舊城教會為他的子弟弟兵輔選"},{"start":2970.731,"end":2993.829,"text":"我去年還沒有進去立法院的時候我公開質疑這件事情結果監察院院長陳菊說什麼陳菊說他受邀參加教會彌撒到場的時候沒有候選人在也不清楚前後是不是有候選人在問題是什麼12月30號那一天舊城教會根本沒彌撒根本沒有彌撒"},{"start":2997.728,"end":3027.211,"text":"是院長說謊嗎?報告黃委員 這個我們已經發過 院長已經發過新聞稿講得非常清楚他當然是沒有看到候選人 這個不是候選活動 這是教會活動現在 這個就是體制的問題了當監察院院長有沒有參加政治活動這件事情遭受到的質疑 這個時候是以監察院院長的新聞稿為準還是監察院應該要啟動智力調查程序"},{"start":3028.457,"end":3049.265,"text":"這個部分很清楚啊 院長已經說明他根本沒有看到候選人 怎麼會是助理我現在在講的 是制度上的問題喔陳菊說的陳菊他是被指控的人嘛他要怎麼講 那是他的說法嘛那如果按照你剛講的任何人 任何人被檢舉了以後他只要用他自己的說法就可以了"},{"start":3049.545,"end":3074.031,"text":"所以我的問題很簡單啦針對這一件事情針對這一件事情到底監察院的立場是監察院長發新聞稿就可以了還是要啟動自律調查這個部分我跟黃委員報告齁監察院依據憲法徵求條文第7條的規定必須超出黨派以外獨立行使職權另外我們有自律規範是那如果有人這個就是我的問題了對"},{"start":3077.491,"end":3087.148,"text":"如果我們的自律規範認為院長有這樣的 我們會經過紀律委員會來審酌嗎好 現在監察院啟動了自律的紀律委員會程序沒有"},{"start":3088.172,"end":3093.234,"text":"目前這一件沒有因為講得很清楚院長講得很清楚沒有關係阿今天大家見識到了監察院的標準阿如果涉案人是陳菊的話他自己發現我搞就算數了人也沒有見到也不是選舉活動請問你人在現場嗎請問你人在現場嗎所以我在講的是體制的問題嘛"},{"start":3113.923,"end":3119.505,"text":"到底要不要啟動紀律委員會調查紀律委員會調查還是院長說了算還是院長說了算對嘛我在問的問題非常簡單到底是監察院院長說了算還是要紀律委員會調查為什麼"},{"start":3132.009,"end":3151.934,"text":"高雄市政府裡面的公務員指正立例啊就是高雄市民政局的副局長蔡竅宏為候選人舉辦的輔選活動啊那天見面以前怎麼call人的誰先到誰後到要安排哪些輔選的人員帶著東西去人家都檢舉了嘛好"},{"start":3153.054,"end":3170.006,"text":"現在我的問題很簡單啦陳菊有陳菊的說法你說你沒有接到任何檢舉沒有關係今天我在司法法制委員會我在司法法制委員會我公開檢舉而且我提提案等一下提案的時候所有司法法制委員會的委員一起討論謝謝"},{"start":3173.726,"end":3188.586,"text":"好 謝謝黃國昌委員那我們現在先做宣告今天有委員提出臨時提案那依本會往例依據上午11點處理若屆時委員正在詢答則該委員詢答完畢之後即進行處理臨時提案那接下來我們請審法會委員發言"},{"start":3206.424,"end":3230.563,"text":"主席各位同仁這個我這樣在我請這個監察院的理事長上台之前我先就今天的這個議程這個部分我跟這個委員會的同仁大家來探討一下我們今天安排這個審查這個徐巧芯委員等17人擬具的監察院組織法第三條之一跟第三條之二這個"},{"start":3234.335,"end":3260.178,"text":"以我們過去的慣例我至少在我的立委任內幾乎是我印象中我從來沒有看過說就一個委員的提案然後這個也沒有院版一個委員的提案然後也沒有跟其他案子並討論就今天一個重要我們委員會一個早上就討論一個委員的提案他甚至連其他委員的相同的提案也沒有了那這個"},{"start":3262.635,"end":3284.812,"text":"像這樣子的特別的議程安排我個人認為說第一個要嘛就是有時間上緊迫性就是這個法律效期到了我們這個時間上有緊迫性所以我們必須要趕快的安排要不然就是說這個議題已經有高度共識社會大家高度共識就是這個沒有什麼爭議的所以我們可以安排"},{"start":3285.572,"end":3300.095,"text":"不然的話我們這個包括在場我們本委員會的委員大家所提的這個法律案有這麼多我們的案子也沒有被拿出來說安排一個早上的議程就一個案子一個法律案來安排這部分我"},{"start":3300.856,"end":3300.956,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3330.936,"end":3332.057,"text":"李秘書長"},{"start":3347.618,"end":3349.819,"text":"我關心的是本委員會在排議程的時候怎麼會安排一個這樣子的案子"},{"start":3377.595,"end":3393.354,"text":"這個部分我們等一下在會議大家再來討論那我們今天既然已經排了這個案子我們還是要就這個案子來看一下說這個這樣子的修正方向到底妥適不妥適剛才這個秘書長在做報告的時候有提到說這個"},{"start":3395.616,"end":3417.385,"text":"這個我們監察院組織法之所以會有這個第三條之一是因為修憲的關係1992年修憲的關係對1992年修憲他把這個原本以前監察院是三個國會之一嘛對那修憲之後他不是國會了那他應該這個委員要具有一定的資格齁這部分那時候才定定的齁那甚至那時候連統一權的機關那時候還是國民大會"},{"start":3420.126,"end":3426.274,"text":"後來改成立法院應該是在2000年才改成立法院大概是2000年"},{"start":3429.335,"end":3449.512,"text":"所以第三條之一有這個我們現行條文裡面齁這個有這個五款總共有七個款有七款現行有七款啦齁有七款那這個七款齁這個基本上都是積極的資格啦齁它不是限制說什麼樣的人不得"},{"start":3450.313,"end":3470.185,"text":"不得擔任,他是積極資格啦,是積極的資格啦,積極資格就是有承認立法委員或是這個幾任以上啦,認本奉多少的法官檢察官啦,等等這些積極資格那現在我們今天所討論的這個委員提案,裡面就提出說要訂定消極資格"},{"start":3471.957,"end":3491.071,"text":"那另外在積極資格裡面他拿掉兩樣拿掉兩款拿掉第一款說承認立法委員一任以上或直轄市議員兩任以上生育著住者那拿掉了那個第六款的這個承認主持新聞文化事業生育著住者"},{"start":3492.328,"end":3505.197,"text":"剛才提案說明說要拿到第6條第6款的理由是說他認為這個主觀這個清廉正直富有政治經驗他認為說這個是主觀的認定沒有客觀標準"},{"start":3506.616,"end":3532.412,"text":"但是我認為說如果按照提案人這樣子的邏輯那恐怕一到七款全部通通要拿掉了因為裡面都有這個成績優異者這個生育卓著者這個在進入每一款都有那這個所謂成績優異也沒有一個成績標準沒有一個說當法官的成績標準這個教授十年以上生育卓著者我們也沒有一個生育卓著者的標準"},{"start":3533.208,"end":3558.227,"text":"所以如果說以這個為理由要拿掉第一款跟第六款那恐怕一到七款全部要拿掉了因為一到七款全部都有這種所謂生育卓著、青年正直這樣子的主觀判斷要件不是嗎我跟省委員報告這個提案裡面拿掉第一款跟第六款最主要是跟政治經驗有關他就主張拿掉那這個部分我們認為有疑慮"},{"start":3559.048,"end":3575.397,"text":"因為事實上過去立委轉任監委的事實上還不少那第二個第六款的部分我報告完第六款的部分所謂富有政治經驗或是主持新聞文化事業生育卓著第五屆的院長副院長都是以這一款進來的"},{"start":3577.058,"end":3600.89,"text":"阿如果這個拿掉的話恐怕對我們監察委員的多元化會有...這個...這個...這個...這個...民主黨你所看到的點跟我看到的點一樣啦齁這個我們實際上它會造成什麼樣的結果我們等一下來討論我們先就法理啦齁法理上我認為這個...這個拿掉這個...這個積極資格裡面的這個理由...立法理由我個人認為說它恐怕這個...如果以這個理由拿掉這兩款那恐怕這七款都沒有辦法成立啦齁"},{"start":3601.87,"end":3611.895,"text":"接下來我們就他所新增的今天所提的法案所新增的第三條之二也就是他訂定消極資格他這個消極資格他訂定說10年內加入政黨參與任何政治活動不得擔任立法委員就這樣"},{"start":3627.281,"end":3648.729,"text":"那這個什麼叫做參與政治活動呢?這個就沒有任何的定義了今天在這個舉辦政見會我去聽政見會算不算參與政治活動?我們高中的時候聽黨外政見會的時候背個書包遮住學號怕教官我們躲在樹底下陰暗的樹底下這個算不算參與政治活動?"},{"start":3650.524,"end":3662.905,"text":"對跟審委員報告這就是我剛說明的兩個部分第一個部分就是所謂10年內10年內不能參與政治活動事實上現在第一個他在這個法院沒有規範"},{"start":3663.891,"end":3686.326,"text":"事實上我們在其他的法令裡面關於政治活動有不是沒有規範但是每一個法規範政治活動不一樣其實規範很清楚就是必須依法律獨立行使職權嘛公務人員中立法第7條他就有規定政治活動什麼叫政治活動下列6款政治活動不得參與"},{"start":3688.067,"end":3717.207,"text":"公務人員中立法有政治獻金法也提到這個相關政治活動但它沒有定義所以它由內政部用函式的方式來定義我們監察院也有自律規範也有相關規定監察院紀律規範有對我們自己的自律規範也有相關規定但是今天所提的這個監察院組織法沒有這個規定而且它限制時間長達10年長達10年這長達10年的結果是什麼呢剛才秘書長已經提到了我們過去"},{"start":3718.968,"end":3732.115,"text":"過去我們所看到的這些監察委員不分黨派有的在社會聲譽卓著有的擔任院長、紀介院長、王健軒院長依照這個王健軒就不能當監察委員了張柏亞也不能當了對不對"},{"start":3734.527,"end":3749.02,"text":"還有孫大川副院長也不行然後再來監察委員陳建民、洪昭南、趙昌平這些瓦力斯、貝林等等這些人通通依照這個條款"},{"start":3750.711,"end":3775.339,"text":"都不能當監察委員我們為什麼會去訂立一個條款訂立一個從過去到現在我們大家認為說他適合當監察委員他不適合當監察委員他適合當監察院院長他不適合當監察院院長大家過去的評價社會的評價都跟這個提案完全抵觸那今天國民黨我安排這樣子的一個我覺得國民黨現在是多數黨"},{"start":3777.07,"end":3798.696,"text":"這種法案你們自己一個黨的委員提案然後把它排入議程排入議程意思就今天要通過這個我們做黨團應該我們副總召你應該要把關一下啦你應該把關一下你自己做多數黨你要有這個社會責任像這樣子的法案今天排出來審查我個人認為是大有疑慮的更何況"},{"start":3799.896,"end":3820.386,"text":"監察委員的這些積極資格的定定他最後並不是說符合這些資格的人都可以當監察委員錯!最後還必須經過本院行使同意權如果總統提名真的像我們今天的法案提案人講的是這樣的人那樣的人我們還是有本院的同意權在行使阿要不是說總統提名誰就是誰"},{"start":3821.536,"end":3838.843,"text":"所以我個人認為我們請本委員會的各位委員大家三思今天這個法案我們在審查的過程中如果沒有高度的共識我個人認為是說我們應該花更多的時間來凝聚大家的共識之後我們再通過這個法案以上好 謝謝接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員發言"},{"start":3854.884,"end":3856.797,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們監察院李秘書長"},{"start":3864.209,"end":3887.938,"text":"莫洋早我想今天我來接續剛前面幾個委員的一個答詢來救教你在我們整個憲法正修條文在第7條第5項規定監察委員必須去操縱黨派以外依據法律來獨立行使職權所以我們監察委員的自立規範裡面就去講得很清楚你在行使職權的時候要操縱黨派保持中立"},{"start":3888.858,"end":3915.208,"text":"這個都很合理啦憲法這樣的一個規定就是說你行使職權的時候你必須要去獨立行使這樣的職權跟黨派就無關了所以也就是說啊它憲法規範的意義是在講你當了監察委員以後擔任監委之後是你就必須要超脫黨派了要綁持中立了那在整個啊整個監察委員的一個產生啊確實啊"},{"start":3917.389,"end":3946.269,"text":"總統來提名啊總統提名完以後那也不是像剛剛秘書長講的愛誰就誰這個現在誰哪有那個哪有那個那個能耐也必須要經過立法院的最後的一個總統提名立法院同意同意這個同意的過程裡面我相信在立法院裡面一定都有很多很多的一個大家來對他過去的一個經驗或者說哪一些不適任的地方來就教於整個被提名人"},{"start":3947.09,"end":3949.096,"text":"所以我本期今天有一個看法就是說這個歷史啊"},{"start":3952.559,"end":3972.075,"text":"這個實在是真的是一面鏡子啊你說過去張伯雅在當院長的時候啊那其實呢就是按照整個現在今天被提出來本院的委員的提案裡面的第六款的部分啊你把它刪掉我想一想我如果是張伯雅會覺得說我張伯雅就一直看記憶體面啊我是怎麼張伯雅真的做得不好你再去把它看看那個這個第一款的部分啊"},{"start":3980.862,"end":3982.904,"text":"王建宣是過去在當監察院院長是這麼不堪嗎張柏堯過去在當監察院院長是這麼的不堪嗎秘書長為什麼人家會針對這兩款產生的監察院院長來把你們想要把它修掉這個你有沒有什麼感觸什麼看法呢"},{"start":4004.148,"end":4024.438,"text":"我想監察院的強調是我們的委員的多元性那所以我們希望讓總統提名或是立法院同意的時候我們的監察委員的組合會有比較多的多元性那刪掉第一款跟刪掉第六款會造成我們很大的影響我剛剛在報告的時候說明過了這會佔掉我們三成到四成之間的人數"},{"start":4025.658,"end":4053.101,"text":"所以這個限縮了總統提名權也限縮了我們的多元性我也不認為說總統就因為沒有這一些以後就找不到人我也不認為是說你這個把它刪掉到底合不合理到底合不合理我跟委員報告因為監察院是查公務員的違法實質那其實立法委員監督過政府所以他非常清楚所以立法委員轉任監委的其實都表現得不錯"},{"start":4054.896,"end":4061.561,"text":"監察委員不必負有那麼好像是那麼高的一個政治經驗比如說一定要當過兩任議員或者說曾經當過立委才可以來當監察委員這個本席倒覺得可以討論像這個部分倒覺得可以討論但是也倒不是說當過議員或當過立法委員就說你這就是賣料的你這就是不能做幹委這個就顛覆一般民眾的一個想法民眾的一個看法"},{"start":4085.817,"end":4110.095,"text":"立法院也做得很好啊有給一個民意的一個經驗我倒覺得這個不一定是壞事啊重點是說你當了監委以後民眾要看的是這個倒不是說你以前還沒當監委以前你是在幹什麼你像比如說啊你說參與一些政治活動啊政治上現在YouTube很多的大網紅啊那些大網紅搞不好有一天"},{"start":4111.256,"end":4111.496,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":4133.547,"end":4148.576,"text":"你是用什麼態度在行使你監察委員的職權呢?這個我覺得才是重點啦。如同專委所說啦,重點在你當了以後不要參與政治活動,而不是你當之前是什麼?其實這麼多年來喔,我倒也真的沒有看過啊。"},{"start":4149.653,"end":4150.994,"text":"什麼監察委員什麼人出來參加的輔選其實當了監察委員以後給你李軍你現在貴為秘書長你叫你去人家輔選的時候你也淡淡你知道嗎我沒有輔選我監察院以後就沒有輔選我意思譬如說"},{"start":4167.242,"end":4167.742,"text":"你會發現看起來是合理但很多時務上都不可能發生"},{"start":4185.452,"end":4185.532,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4200.683,"end":4210.046,"text":"本席倒是也持開放的一個態度但是在立法理由裡面說明裡面提到說參照公務人員任用法第28條對公務人員消極資格的一個認定這個我看起來就更奇怪了公務人員任用法第28條裡面去所談到的裡面"},{"start":4222.129,"end":4247.081,"text":"這一些來看本席來看的話很多可能對於其他監察委員整個公正在執法的一個公正性來看的話有更高的標準其實我覺得是好事我覺得是好事但是呢那其實啊這個在監察院這一些自律規範裡面啊真的是不夠嗎或者是監察院你自己的自律規範你的幹部都沒在準時委嗎"},{"start":4248.271,"end":4248.431,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4266.769,"end":4278.08,"text":"可能你也稍微會知道,周平憲就是說,說到侯友宜案件,我們整個,你覺得他在4月24號約談的新北市市長,"},{"start":4281.464,"end":4298.576,"text":"整個案子大家會看幾十年前的一個案子突然你們去取調查的時候正在藍軍比較有政治性的一個立場來看的話他當然會有所疑慮按照監察院調查案子的方式裡面常常有一些委託調查的"},{"start":4300.057,"end":4301.899,"text":"1989年世界台灣同鄉會總幹事羅裕士闖關遭到強制驅逐案"},{"start":4317.916,"end":4346.923,"text":"社會大眾可能會認為說這樣幾十年前的事情這樣你現在是來衝這條會不會有大家所以覺得政治性或針對性太高的問題請你回答我說明一下這個自動調查案有兩位委員提出的自動調查案那他們主要的目的是要追求真相因為有人檢舉嘛所以他們要追求真相那其實這個送到懲刑法院即使我們彈劾成功送到懲刑法院懲刑法院也都不受理了因為已經超過追溯時期了會不會被"},{"start":4349.704,"end":4367.755,"text":"所以這兩位委員有新聞稿說明說他們認為真正重要的是追查真相不追查真相才是對不起國民其實本席也倒認為像這種著名的一個案件有時候去做一個追查倒也不是說監察院是過度的一個政治性就像你說的"},{"start":4369.236,"end":4371.498,"text":"這個案子35年,可是有更久的、社會大眾更期待的那個44宗的臨災血案。這部分"},{"start":4389.451,"end":4409.847,"text":"經過40幾年我相信倒也沒有什麼敏感性的問題了因為畢竟國民黨過去的一個威權體制底下幹的特務幹的這種慘絕人寰的事情民眾也不會覺得意外但只是說怎麼樣讓他浮現出來對社會有一個交代對受害者"},{"start":4411.228,"end":4412.489,"text":"這個部分我的了解是有受到部分阻礙"},{"start":4437.628,"end":4442.678,"text":"主人喔?主愛喔?主愛喔?就是很多過去的資料沒有辦法再查到"},{"start":4443.891,"end":4471.294,"text":"可不可以簡單講一下,不然實在是你既然說就說一半,受到一些阻礙這個部分現在還有我們的委員繼續在調查當中那過去確實有很多資料檔案或是怎麼樣已經被銷毀了,所以還沒有完全查得清楚銷毀喔?銷毀的部分是對整個案情有重大影響的嗎?這個部分我不便在這邊透露"},{"start":4473.106,"end":4474.027,"text":"好 謝謝那呃"},{"start":4505.297,"end":4511.662,"text":"我剛有一個記者會所以我們接下來請翁曉琳委員暫時代理主席接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言"},{"start":4538.821,"end":4560.747,"text":"主席﹖在場的委員先進﹖列席的政府機關所長﹖官員﹖會場工作夥伴﹖媒體記者女士先生有請監察院李秘書長中委員好秘書長好請教秘書長就你對中華民國憲法本文的瞭解還有大法院的解釋在憲法本文當中監察院是不是國會"},{"start":4562.466,"end":4563.947,"text":"監察院本身過去是不是有很強的政治性格?如果他是國會的話?"},{"start":4586.411,"end":4586.811,"text":"監察院及考試院"},{"start":4603.032,"end":4615.711,"text":"還有司法院考試院有好像沒有有啦考試院還是要獨立行政職權我們在證據條裡面沒有寫到啦沒有寫到考試委員因為考試權考試用人有很強烈的行政權的屬性所以原來屬於國會權的監察權後來"},{"start":4618.675,"end":4644.385,"text":"不過奪了國會身份之後他就不再具有國會身份後他的調查權還是保留但是人員要求獨立行使權但是考試院的部分他有很強烈的考試用人的身份但是他在正確條文沒有要求他獨立行使權很清楚所以監察院的提名當中過去我們看到了你覺得民眾是不是還記得王健軒先生當過監委當過院長"},{"start":4647.094,"end":4672.133,"text":"他是第四屆的院長那民眾是不是也了解張柏雅女士擔任過監察院的院長他第五屆的院長那請問他們當時在被提名的時候剛剛前面講過他是根據哪一款被提名的王健軒是依照第一款他是立法委員對 那張柏雅女士是依照第六款他就是負政治經驗請問他們兩位的被提名的當下是不是已經失去了國會的這樣的一個"},{"start":4674.037,"end":4674.218,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4690.728,"end":4690.748,"text":"委員會長"},{"start":4711.653,"end":4712.793,"text":"持續來做出他們的主張。"},{"start":4740.401,"end":4741.721,"text":"法官法 直接要求法官退出政黨"},{"start":4770.231,"end":4784.824,"text":"有這個規定啊但是根據台師大的一位學者的研究到目前為止所有的三級三省的法院目前只有這樣子推估啊他說推估這些限職的法官95以上是國民黨黨籍"},{"start":4785.945,"end":4801.315,"text":"但到目前為止只有這些比例20 30 50的法官有發聲明退出政黨我想請教民主黨如果你覺得要確保我們監委跟司法院跟法官一樣可以獨立行使職權是不是退出政黨更為有效"},{"start":4803.068,"end":4818.543,"text":"這是一個可以考慮的方向這政黨現在有不同的規定對所以我當然是認為說要在嘴巴上去說修法已經定的法有沒有辦法落實到這個問題呢退出政黨更為乾脆好那我現在回過來要詢問因為目前監察院因調查"},{"start":4822.186,"end":4846.935,"text":"涉國家機密而須出境審查人有多少人目前你們自己監察院請教一下監察院所有的監察委員都是都是對然後還有沒有還有像我秘書長也是還有沒有公務員也有還有我們調查處有涉及國家機密的都在列管範圍裡面我之前也問過監察院行使調查權因為涉及國家機密出境必須受限制在兩岸條例當中有提到"},{"start":4848.336,"end":4875.115,"text":"這關於的第二款相關機關包括監察院從事涉及國家安全利益或機密業務的人員那麼我看到你們的統計呢離職未滿三年的在監察院還在列管的有12人政務人員有16人就包括全體的見聞是不是這樣好那我們看到國家機密保護法這些人出境啊要做機關搜查要審核包括什麼辦理國家機密事務的人員國家機密保護法你們列管了多少人"},{"start":4876.446,"end":4878.067,"text":"國家機密保護法列管44人"},{"start":4896.119,"end":4912.439,"text":"監察委員有保障、國家機密保護法、要求保密、洩漏民主黨紀律委員處理,請問你認為這些調查權的限制,這些附中到其他國家的限制是自我閹割還是對於監委行使職權的保障?"},{"start":4913.68,"end":4937.965,"text":"兩個部分我跟委員報告國家禁運保護法規定的非常清楚是有涉密的人員需要管制另外附中這個附大陸地區這個兩岸人民關係條例第9條就有規定了只要是公務員就受到限制公務員 那麼監察委員包括在內監察委員也包括在內 附中都要申請立法委員包括在內立法委員應該也是吧"},{"start":4938.365,"end":4964.599,"text":"那立法院的職員也包括在內公務員也包括在內公務員更是那請問到目前為止到目前為止立法院有沒有說你所知道有沒有去做這些人員的管制我不知道這是公務員的權責好那我來告訴你齁我直接齁點出啦在本月4月17日外交國防委員會前建國造的秘密會當中有黃人委員與會"},{"start":4966.257,"end":4985.072,"text":"但是他在4月26號陪同副總召去中國面見中國政協主席,你認為這樣的一個情況包括黃任委員在內,那天的會場工作人員是不是已經屬於涉密人員了?如果以監察院的標準,你們監察院會不會對這樣的人員感知?"},{"start":4986.244,"end":5015.112,"text":"立法院不是我們管轄的法院我說以監察院這樣的秘密會議你們會不會管制我們依據如果依據兩岸人民關係條例檢認實質等以上涉及國家機密這個都要附大陸都要申請好那我來告訴你立法院從未依法提列人員清單他也沒有去申報這是立法委員這些人員那如果立法院為提列負責沒有提列負責的公務員有沒有怠惰"},{"start":5016.032,"end":5016.253,"text":"有沒有待職"},{"start":5017.894,"end":5046.798,"text":"這個由立法院來決定不是立法院決定啊 如果有人提出跟監察院檢舉說立法院的負責該項業務的職員 公務員他有怠惰他沒有依法將這些涉密人員列入清單也無從申報無從管制請問監察院這個時候會不會需要調查如果公務人員的話我們會調查你們會調查 好 那我們現在先口頭跟你請報告跟提出希望呢 你們就這些期間以來立法院包括立法院在內"},{"start":5048.722,"end":5070.619,"text":"社密人員附中而立法院沒有落實法律的規定去進行管制的立法委員不是我們管制的對象我不是說立法委員管制的對象 我說有立法院裡面的公務員 如果公務對這些人進行管制但他沒有做 他就待乎職守 要不要接受監察院的調查這個我們可以調查"},{"start":5071.219,"end":5071.339,"text":"陳菊園委員"},{"start":5121.274,"end":5124.36,"text":"好謝謝主席主席我們有請李秘書長"},{"start":5128.721,"end":5154.043,"text":"秘書長早秘書長我們今天要審查的是有關我們監察院組織法第三條之一的這個及第三條之二的相關修正草案那也就是針對我們有關擔任監察委員的資格條件那根據憲法這個徵修條文第七條第二項鎖定監察院"},{"start":5154.924,"end":5177.335,"text":"我們設置有29位的監委其中一位為院長那另外一位為副院長那任期6年由總統提名經立法院同意任命之那也就是說監察委員的提名是總統在憲政上的權者那立法院在行使人事同意權之後便會在基於五權分立的這個架構下去進行"},{"start":5179.072,"end":5198.061,"text":"針對我們今天看到這個國民黨所提出要刪除第三條之一中的這個第一款也就是王建宣院長條款以及第六條第六款之中的這個張柏雅院長條款的草案我想到底是在檢視這兩位院長過去的這個"},{"start":5202.993,"end":5226.995,"text":"單任院長時的資格問題還是說對於這兩位院長過去的表現好不好的一個檢視那我想有沒有符合社會期待還是相關的議題應該是要回歸正面的這個方向來思考那我們從監察院所提供的書面報告裡面我們也可以看到"},{"start":5228.427,"end":5250.139,"text":"近三屆的這個監察委員當中是用這兩個條款加起來的可能就佔有三成以上剛剛秘書長您也大概回覆了那就秘書長您自己觀察來看是用這兩款的這個資格的監委相較其他的委員在工作上是否具有比較特別的優勢"},{"start":5252.441,"end":5271.962,"text":"比方說他們在政治上的這個豐富經驗可能會更有利於職權的行使您的看法我跟陳委員報告監察院重要的是委員組成的多元性所以我們會有一至七款這樣的這個積極條件的限制那其實最重要的是多元性"},{"start":5272.422,"end":5284.27,"text":"那你剛剛提到的就是說比如說擔任過立委我們認為他對政府的運作相當熟悉所以他在轉任監委以後沒有銜接上的問題他可以很快的進入狀況我們是有發現這樣的現象"},{"start":5288.857,"end":5311.327,"text":"在這個過程裡面我們也看到有學者提出可以參考這個考試院的修法經驗明定單一政黨委員不能超過總委員數的二分之一那秘書長您之前也是身為立法委員不僅也參與過這個考試院的這個組織修法過程那也曾對監察院組織法提出"},{"start":5312.747,"end":5324.976,"text":"這個類似的構想那我想再就教就是說現在作為監察院的秘書長您來看認為適不適合參考考試院的經驗來避免被提名人立場單一的可能"},{"start":5326.383,"end":5343.079,"text":"我們現在單一檔級沒有超過二分之一甚至連三分之一都沒有是不是有必要在組織法增加這一條我沒有意見我們尊重大院的決定另外有關我們新增第三條之二的消極資格限制"},{"start":5344,"end":5373.223,"text":"雖然利益是希望監委能夠超脫黨派那憲法徵修條文第7條第5項也有規定監察委員需超出黨派的以外依據法律獨立行使職權在任期中未就應保持公正中立不受任何的干涉但修正的條文中對於資格所設定的這個10年內有參加過政黨或參與任何政治活動者"},{"start":5373.843,"end":5402.612,"text":"尤其對於其中這個參與過任何政治活動沒有一個明確的界定不論是時間的長度還是範圍的這個廣度在實務上是否有難以去查證的這個現象兩個部分我跟委員報告第一個就是剛剛跟莊惠祥委員的對談裡面也有提到這件事情監察院重要的是你擔任監委以後不得參加政治活動所以你擔任監委之前那本來就是人民的集會結社自由"},{"start":5403.172,"end":5431.813,"text":"那第二個部分就是在三這二條裡面我們認為有困難為什麼有困難第一個就是十年內參加政黨這個我們還可以查但是有沒有參加過政治活動政治活動的定義到底是什麼他的範疇到哪裡比如說我去參加反核遊行算不算政治活動我去參加這個反滲透法的遊行算不算政治活動這個沒有明確的定義的話我們在執行上會有相當的困難對他這個溯及既往那你政治活動沒有明確的話"},{"start":5432.594,"end":5451.916,"text":"你去助選輔選還是剛剛秘書長您說的參加反核活動算不算助選輔選我們在監察院的自律規範裡面都有嚴格的禁止是好那如果我們參照這個行政中立法第5條之中第一項的規定公務人員得加入政黨或其他這個政治團體"},{"start":5452.717,"end":5470.371,"text":"但不得兼任政黨或其他政治團體的職務那公務員可以加入政黨但監委在被提名前10年都不能有黨籍那秘書長您認為對於政治活動的界定適合參酌監察院的自律規範這樣的規定是否能夠限縮到總統的提名權"},{"start":5471.713,"end":5482.393,"text":"我認為會限收到總統提名權而且一個人沒有辦法預測他10年以後會不會擔任檢委啊會不會被提名啊所以這個部分老實講實際上的執行上一定會有困難"},{"start":5483.84,"end":5507.151,"text":"所以我想民眾也是在期待我們所組成的監院是可以超然公正那得高望重的人士來伸張正義我相信這是所有民眾所期待的那在修法上還是尊重憲法賦予總統提名的權責在合理的情況之下我們來討論這個監委提名的問題我相信這樣才是符合民眾的期待"},{"start":5508.131,"end":5521.545,"text":"重點是提名權跟同意權所以不要限縮總統的權限那立委可以在同意權上表示同意或不同意好那接下來我想就教秘書長針對這個兒少性剝削的這個相關議題那在兒少性剝削的案件層出不窮"},{"start":5529.807,"end":5557.135,"text":"而貴院的人權會在本月10日曾發出新聞稿呼籲政府能夠正視兒少性影像犯罪的問題那恰好今天魏環也在聯席本委員會正在審查有關兒童及少年性剝削防治條例的修正草案那顯見我們社會各界對於兒少性剝削以及私密影像的杜絕相關的重視那"},{"start":5559.795,"end":5587.875,"text":"今天我想說因為目前國內不分草野急於共同解決這個問題我想請教秘書長就是我們櫃會的人權會如何在兒少性剝削相關議題上發揮最大的功能又如何來建議政府採取相關的措施來保障我們兒少的人權我跟陳委員報告我們的人權會現在目前正在進行系統性的調查有關這個議題那調查完以後我們會提出我們的建議那我們認為說"},{"start":5590.357,"end":5615.974,"text":"預計在今年的年底會提出來這個部分年底會有一個結構報告年中啦年中那我想還是對這個議題我們期待我們這個監察院的人權會能夠有更多的這個著力點尤其在人權會的委員們大多都是相關議題的這個專門研究或是貢獻者算是專家他們現在不合第七款不合第七款"},{"start":5616.314,"end":5641.679,"text":"那希望能夠盡最大的力量來落實我們兒少人權的保障不管在修法還是政策還是倡議工作或是提出建議這個我相信期待我們這個在監院及這個所有我們主管的這個帶領之下能夠各司其職讓我們一起來努力趕快來把這個問題解決我相信我們人權會提出適當的建議好 謝謝秘書長好 謝謝"},{"start":5646.886,"end":5674.892,"text":"好接下來請羅志強委員發言主席有請秘書長秘書長羅委員長秘書長我想先送你一句話有句話叫我失故我在我想送你的是我廢故我在你知道為什麼要送你這句話嗎"},{"start":5676.906,"end":5690.774,"text":"為什麼要送你這句話因為監察院很廢啦那監察院不但廢齁他最廢的一件事情就是兩個廢除監察院主張的人齁一個當院長一個當秘書長"},{"start":5692.298,"end":5718.632,"text":"我覺得這真的是一個台灣有史以來最大的政治笑話這不是笑話沒關係我沒有叫你回答我根本是連問你問題都懶得問我是覺得問你問題都覺得是很浪費時間因為我不知道你這個廢監察院的人站在這邊你到底要幫監察院講什麼你現在任期多久你做多久了我到現在半年半年嘛 對不對那你有這個勇氣接監察院秘書長我也是佩服你啦"},{"start":5719.86,"end":5720.601,"text":"陳菊當監察院長的第一個證件是什麼?"},{"start":5736.343,"end":5756.422,"text":"我瞭解阿你告訴我阿 什麼證件 非處監察院阿對阿 哈哈 非常好 真是 欸 秘書長我跟你講我今天就是欣賞你阿 是我欣賞你啦 他希望他是最後一任監察院院長 是 沒錯我跟各位講 陳菊真的是有眼見 但是在修憲還沒有完成之前我們還是有我們的憲法功能在我就要準備推修憲了啦 完成你們兩個的遺志 我不要講遺志對不起 詛咒你們啦"},{"start":5762.347,"end":5783.411,"text":"完全你們兩個的自願那我跟各位講沒關係啦不要緊張不要緊張我要跟你講我今天是表達對你的敬意對 表達對你的敬意陳菊說他想要當最後一任監察院長我這邊直接主張三路並進讓他成為最後一任監察院長好不好我沒有意見三路並進我告訴你很簡單第一個就修憲但修憲難度高沒有關係並2026年的地方首長選舉"},{"start":5793.608,"end":5815.087,"text":"並2022 地方首席委員讓全民一起來公決但是在修憲之前我告訴你啦 程序是你們的藉口啦 不用啦決心最重要啦搞八年非監察院 民進黨也沒做啦沒有關係啦 按照憲法是第一個做法第二個我告訴你 很簡單我告訴你 直接廢掉你的組織法啦"},{"start":5819.284,"end":5822.748,"text":"凍結監察院啦!凍結監察院是有權利的啦!凍結監察院!沒關係!第三個!我廢掉你的預算啦!凍結監察院啦!凍結監察院是有憲政權利的喔!山鬼並進!"},{"start":5834.341,"end":5835.001,"text":"請議理服人請議理服人請議理服人"},{"start":5863.905,"end":5881.142,"text":"你一定不會知道答案啦我在上個月跟國防部新聞要他給我20年你知道最近軍中自殺的案件很多嗎 對不對總知道吧那我剛要20年來看看說到底現在情況有多嚴重這個所知應該沒問題吧"},{"start":5890.086,"end":5918.204,"text":"這是你們跟國防部之間的對阿我告訴你阿國防部你知道他怎麼回答我阿他只有10年的資料他沒有10年以上的資料我告訴你他們就沒有監察院積極阿35年級的舊案小警員舊案也可以拿來重草我告訴你我佩服你們監察院積極認識阿只要今天清查在野黨的東西積極認識阿"},{"start":5920.049,"end":5940.581,"text":"高永成就是一個東廠代表這是你個人的看法沒有關係我就個人看法阿就像你的廢除監察院你到現在也是個人看法還舔有這個勇氣舔不知恥還可以接監察院的秘書長我超級佩服你啦請彼此尊重我不需要尊重一個廢除監察院的人啦"},{"start":5941.081,"end":5945.744,"text":"我根本不需要尊重廢除監察院我沒有這種勇氣去當監察院院長去當監察院的秘書長我佩服你啦我佩服你啦所以我要告訴你今天高永成你要幫他背書沒有關係你們都是同一路人啦很簡單"},{"start":5971.448,"end":5997.29,"text":"段宜康信誓旦旦曲棍球如果今天林昌明沒事我段宜康大段宜康我吞三顆曲棍球吞了沒吞了沒啊答不出來啊 不敢答啦因為這個是自所周知你絕對知道你不敢答而已沒吞啊沒吞 厚 厲害啦跑去找高永成啦 厲害啦"},{"start":5998.444,"end":6004.469,"text":"林志堅的論文案全國老百姓你們偉大的民進黨在檢討敗選計畫整個敗選計畫只提到一個名字叫做林志堅"},{"start":6026.624,"end":6049.69,"text":"所有敗選責任就是林志堅的抄襲連你的民進黨大民進黨都不敢幫林志堅背書你偉大的高永成你去追殺余政煌論文被剽竊的受害者世上之無恥沒有到這種地步的就發生在高永成身上我告訴你今天我會做臨時提案很簡單"},{"start":6056.755,"end":6072.109,"text":"你們監察院有紀律委員會吧有紀律委員會對不對放著高永成這個東廠紀律委員會也不會處理啦我知道啦沒有關係我們立法院齁今天為民喉舌我今天就提一個臨時提案"},{"start":6073.154,"end":6088.187,"text":"我知道你也不會做啦但是我們要跟選民交代啦我會臨時提案拜託你們監察院回去齁把這個高永成齁好好研究要不要送到紀律委員會啦沒關係我幫你講答案啦我要回答我堅持你紀律委員會幫你回答啦做不到了啦做不到了啦"},{"start":6092.348,"end":6095.449,"text":"監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案案"},{"start":6120.126,"end":6122.609,"text":"監察院還很東廠阿很強阿現在跑去查侯友宜35年前的舊案你去查好棒棒阿"},{"start":6132.557,"end":6158.933,"text":"好棒棒啦陳忠彥這麼明顯的敗壞關真你那11個監察員直接去跳樓算了啦連彈劾都不敢丟臉至丟臉到這種程度無以復加不敢打老虎不敢打蒼蠅老鼠屎也不敢打只會清算不同意見的人這種監察院廢到極點東廠到極點"},{"start":6171.261,"end":6171.562,"text":"主席秘書長"},{"start":6194.686,"end":6209.367,"text":"民務長好,民務長我想我接續剛剛羅志強委員的一個諮詢我想憲法徵修條文第7條第5項規定的非常清楚我們監察委員必須超出黨派以外來依據法律獨立行使職權"},{"start":6210.689,"end":6212.191,"text":"高永誠委員．具有濃厚政治色彩的言行及發言"},{"start":6228.308,"end":6254.06,"text":"譬如說江永誠監委他利用職權進行政治打壓在這個卡管案期間他調查台大前校長管中銘在新竹市這個前市長林志堅的論文案裡面他調查了當時他的抄襲的對象的調查官余政煌那麼在段宜康曲棍球案"},{"start":6255.08,"end":6266.419,"text":"竟然在檢察官不起訴了他所指涉的林昌敏前立委之後他竟然彈劾檢察官陳榮祥"},{"start":6268.479,"end":6269.48,"text":"陳詩夢上任監委調查辦律不辦欄司法官"},{"start":6290.735,"end":6303.609,"text":"種種言行政治色彩非常濃厚,完全違背憲法正修條文第7條第5項所規定的,監察委員須超出黨派以外依據法律獨立行使職權。"},{"start":6305.171,"end":6317.702,"text":"所以針對這些荒腔左絆的這些嚴刑舉止秘書長您認為這位高永成委員他的相關的嚴刑舉止有沒有違反相關的你們監察委員的職權行使的規範"},{"start":6322.137,"end":6335.49,"text":"我跟您委員報告如果這些案您列出來的這個都是經過這個正當的程序來查那至於委員要查什麼案委員本來就獨立行使職權我們沒有權干涉民主黨我想您這個在袒護在袒護他"},{"start":6338.712,"end":6358.039,"text":"委員要查什麼案我們本來就沒有權干涉正在監察院秘書長的這樣的一個高度的位置上面如果你的監委完全違背他的職權的行使規範我想你今天在這邊答詢你還彈劾他說是經過這個委員大家共同討論才來決定這個案子"},{"start":6360.62,"end":6383.858,"text":"如果這四個案,您列了這四個案,確實是委員都討論過但是是他提案的嘛,是幹事委員提案的那委員要提什麼案,我們本來就不能干涉是沒有錯,但是您不能干涉,但是事後來檢視他這些行為完全違反相關的監察委員的職權的一個規範那您認為監察院要如何做自律"},{"start":6385.287,"end":6395.907,"text":"如果有證實他違反相關規範的話我們會有紀律委員會但是這幾個案這四個案我告訴委員的就是這四個案確實依照我們監察院的程序來處理"},{"start":6397.798,"end":6425.185,"text":"民務長我還是要在這邊社會觀感非常不好還是要呼籲民務長您還是要去正視還是要去正視委員這些荒腔走板的這些職務的行使我想這個大家都覺得社會上普遍華然怎麼會有這樣的監察委員獨立行使職權跟立法委員一樣你獨立行使職權行使出來的是這樣荒腔走板"},{"start":6426.105,"end":6450.248,"text":"監察院在秘書長的位置上面高度上面你不用去約束他嗎我沒有辦法約束他您客氣了您是幕僚長但是我想大家心知肚明您有沒有權限去告訴這位監委您要去約束自己的原型舉止來我們再來看對Face議題他的發言"},{"start":6451.984,"end":6465.055,"text":"高永誠監委說,透過憲法法庭來廢除死刑,施司法權針對死刑制度進行實質審查,整體實現司法獨立的存在價值,正在於反抗多數的精神。所謂的司法獨立存在的價值,正在於反抗多數。"},{"start":6477.134,"end":6502.959,"text":"您贊成嗎?這句話你贊成嗎?我跟您委員報告第一個我不是念法律的我是念政治學的那第二個部分這個國家人權委員會被司法院憲法法庭指定為鑒定機關那以國家人權委員會的立場表達得非常清楚國家應廢除死刑保障生命權及人性尊嚴並修護犯罪創傷人保護與被害人的正義這個才是我們真正的重點所在"},{"start":6503.459,"end":6532.228,"text":"所以我現在想說一個監委對司法獨立的精神他講說他的價值在於反抗多數部長我想您對法律也有涉獵啦您父親也是非常有名的法律學者是這樣這句話以你站在一個政治學的一個的博士的一個角度你來看對嗎反抗司法司法存在的價值在於反抗多數啊"},{"start":6533.187,"end":6550.639,"text":"4月23號有對針對這個部分有很多的討論每個人都有不同的見解這個就是憲法法庭為什麼要搖個電做不同的事我簡單問你好了施法獨立何謂施法獨立依照你個人的瞭解你簡單回答"},{"start":6550.939,"end":6575.902,"text":"就是不受黨派的約束不受其他的約束自行來依照法律來做自我的判斷我想其實司法獨立的重要的精髓就是說法官他在做判決的時候或在做審判的時候不受任何外力的干涉及影響嘛我同意所以跟他現在他講說他本身是律師欸他怎麼會講說司法獨立的存在價值在於反抗多數"},{"start":6577.103,"end":6604.506,"text":"法官可以反抗多數法官本於他的一個對法律的一個認知以及實現正義這樣子指的一個理念去做出司法獨立的一個裁判不受外力任何的干涉怎麼會去把它去把它影射到去把它牽涉到司法獨立存在的價值在於反抗多數我想這個真的是荒腔走板的發言一個監察委員會做出這樣子的一個言論"},{"start":6606.141,"end":6627.115,"text":"委員長你認為他這樣的說法你接受嗎?你接受嗎?真的你接受嗎?我再一次跟您委員報告高雄城委員這一次是代表國家人權委員會去憲法法庭的不是代表監察院這個要分清楚那國家人權委員會本來就不是我幕僚長管轄的範疇我們只負責他的人事跟預算"},{"start":6627.935,"end":6649.328,"text":"委員長當然您是一直在就相關的他的法定職權您在做區分其實我想要表達的是說畢竟他是監察委員他也因為監察委員他才可以擔任他因為本身是監察委員他才可以擔任這個人權文匯的這個委員嘛所以這種雙重角色之下他去"},{"start":6650.97,"end":6661.169,"text":"這個去代表這個人權委員會去做這樣的一個完全違背司法獨立價值的一個發言這種監委還有存在的必要嗎"},{"start":6661.909,"end":6662.069,"text":"主席"},{"start":6692.189,"end":6698.274,"text":"相關學者對學術的看法對學術的傲慢認為學術看法對的其實不然任何政策的擬定都順從民意在實定法就有實行相關規定"},{"start":6715.066,"end":6743.075,"text":"所以你大法官你要去了解說現在民意的走向是怎樣為什麼我們當初刑法要有死刑這樣子的一個立法還有我們現在立法政策是怎麼樣立法政策難道不用考量我們的民意嗎要不要我想您當過民意的立法院所以我們在擬定相關政策的時候您沒意見嘛就是說要去對相關民意要做調查才擬定相關的政策嘛這麼高的民意"},{"start":6744.4,"end":6746.042,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6758.174,"end":6776.921,"text":"去講說這個為何一定要順從民意我想這離民意太遠了啦所以我才會講到說監委高永成又附和他去講這樣子的話司法獨立的存在價值在於反抗多數反抗多數的民意跟民意對幹"},{"start":6778.973,"end":6803.627,"text":"李委員我沒有辦法對每一個人講的每一句話所以嘛所以我在想說我們還是希望監察院對於相關的監察委員的嚴刑舉止在這個不管是公開的啦或私下的啦藝術長您都有這個責任去告訴他們去約束他們做監察委員要有個監察委員的一個樣子啦"},{"start":6804.727,"end":6832.583,"text":"想大家都希望你看以前你也主張監委要監察院要廢掉為什麼你也會有這樣的一個主張就是你也看不慣有些監察委員相關的言詢舉止真的叫做離譜至極完全沒有去尊重自己的監委的一個角色我還是衷心的期盼您現在貴為秘書長真的要多多的去跟這些監察委員做出正確的一個"},{"start":6833.123,"end":6833.163,"text":"吳宗憲委員"},{"start":6870.043,"end":6898.995,"text":"好 謝謝 那我們麻煩秘書長吳委員早好 秘書長你好秘書長我上一次跟您質詢的時候有跟您提到就是幾個案子嘛那主要就是提到當初檢察官陳榮祥被監察委員高永成當時彈劾他的那個案子那"},{"start":6900.754,"end":6924.078,"text":"當然當時秘書長有說這個是監察權的獨立行使那當時秘書長也有說會回去跟他們至少講一下這件事情那我覺得這段時間以來那其實朝野都一直有人提說希望廢除監察院或者是讓他就是暫時不運作我想一直都有這個聲音出來那"},{"start":6928.4,"end":6953.605,"text":"這段時間呢我覺得其實這個也是秘書長以前的核心理念啦我想這應該沒講錯啦那這段時間我覺得看起來有一些監察委員還是置意妄為甚至淪為政府打擊議席的東廠當然我現在先說個別委員秘書長我絕對沒有說監察院或說秘書長您而是就個別委員"},{"start":6954.825,"end":6964.513,"text":"監察委裡面有我非常非常尊敬的長官我們到現在都還是維持非常良好的關係所以我的意思是指個別的委員那我想請問一下"},{"start":6967.182,"end":6984.057,"text":"秘書長您之前的一些修法還有相關的政見其實我這樣直接回過頭去看您臉書的一些內容我覺得都非常的認同那是不是說我們在廢除監察院之前我們應該是共同來找出這些監察院裡面的這個害群之馬"},{"start":6985.198,"end":7005.516,"text":"要跟他溝通或是甚至說是不是監察院內部也要思考送紀律委員會之類的一些做法讓某些委員能夠知道自己做法不一定是對的那我想請問一下秘書長你有沒有同意本席的看法就是將來能夠跟本席一起對抗那些比較置意妄為的委員監察委員"},{"start":7007.537,"end":7018.284,"text":"監察委員獨立行使職權我們很難對他有什麼樣的動作但是我以個人的經驗我有時候會跟委員做一些討論我們會是做建議這樣"},{"start":7022.513,"end":7045.782,"text":"這是您之前的臉書嗎?當年您在擔任立委學長的時候,監察院的部分也是提了很多自己的意見我當立委的時候有提過修憲案,我主張被除監察院所以我剛剛說,我有去看了一下民主黨您之前的一些看法"},{"start":7048.543,"end":7068.512,"text":"憲法徵修條文第7條第5項其實他講得很清楚監察委員必須超出黨派之外依據法律獨立行使職權但是呢這段時間我就說啦高永成委員光這一位委員他一路以來從陳榮祥的案子那個案子我覺得我到現在"},{"start":7070.313,"end":7091.466,"text":"當時這個案子發生的時候我還是檢察官那我必須跟你們報告一件事情檢察官協會非常不諒解這件事情檢察官協會是代表全國上千位的檢察官他非常非常非常不諒解這件事我是檢察官的一員我也非常不諒解這件事情我覺得高雄城委員這個監察委員是完全"},{"start":7093.223,"end":7122.364,"text":"我可以說是毀憲亂政啦套一句柯總召的說法叫毀憲亂政憲法徵修條文第7條第5項明白的說監察委員要超出黨派但是這位高永成委員總是替某些特定人打擊異己這是非常非常不應該這個才叫做毀憲亂政當然特定監察委員不是全部的這段時間尤其是陳榮祥的案子"},{"start":7123.823,"end":7133.696,"text":"陳昌祥所做出來的做法區棍球這個案子不管一省二省三省跟再省的法院的判決"},{"start":7135.103,"end":7135.223,"text":"堅查委員"},{"start":7165.764,"end":7183.243,"text":"陳榮祥的案子之外﹖卡管案他也出現了﹖林志傑論文案的余政煌他也出現了﹖再加上前兩個禮拜的侯友宜的案子他也出現了﹖真的難以想像一個監察委員放著政事不幹這段時間的問題呢﹖"},{"start":7185.879,"end":7186.139,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7204.068,"end":7226.601,"text":"小警察 我不懂這個意思啦至少我自己在指揮偵辦案件的時候我非常的清楚偵辦的警察到某一個轄區去偵辦處理案件執行案件的時候都會知會當地分局到場協助那他們到場協助都是做一些知違末節的事情甚至只是維護交通他們不會去做真正案子的核心的事情"},{"start":7227.381,"end":7255.7,"text":"就你今天把一個到場支援的警察你很的修理就其他帶隊官指揮官承辦的人你都不找那你這個很難不讓社會大眾相信說你不是政治的打手啊那這個也間接的傷害監察院在人民以及在我們心目中那個超然的地位所以我認為他的這個做法我到現在還是覺得他沒有更壞他沒有最壞只有更壞啦"},{"start":7257.267,"end":7280.173,"text":"高永成這個傢伙沒有最壞只有更壞在繼續無暇限的在搞他的政治打擊我請教我請教那個秘書長之前高永成委員他在偵辦那個請問那個陳榮祥的案子的時候他對檢察官曾經說你不幫我解決這個問題就是逼我要彈劾你請問你認同一個監察委員這麼高職位的監察委員對"},{"start":7283.374,"end":7299.4,"text":"被調查人講這句話合理嗎?監察委員在約群的時候講什麼話,我沒有辦法負責任。不是要,不是,報告秘書長,不是要你負責任,是我請教你,你覺得合理嗎?我也不適合去做任何評論啦。好,那我尊重秘書長的想法。"},{"start":7300.38,"end":7322.115,"text":"但是我個人認為這個完全不合理就像法官檢察官在問案的時候你口氣不好或罵髒話常常都被懲刑後來被處分我覺得你到那個位置就有那個位置的樣子而不是說到那個位置你就開始講一些有的沒有的甚至他對台大調查台大的那個卡管案的時候他也是說"},{"start":7323.376,"end":7352.123,"text":"你們不要敬酒不吃 吃罰酒我覺得這個都不應該監察委員怎麼會做這種事情卡寡案查的好像是違法兼職對 沒錯 是兼職的時候但是我覺得不管如何當時他就跳進去查要求他們出具兼職的報告嘛 對不對然後他在那個案子調查的時候講那句話我覺得也不妥就像我警察官我再辦一個殺人案就算這個人真正是殺人犯監視自己底下殺人我們也不會去對他講一些有的沒有的啦該怎麼查就怎麼查的一切是依照程序來"},{"start":7353.303,"end":7381.605,"text":"所以我認為這個是不對的齁那再來就是我想請教一下以前那個陳思夢阿他也曾經講過說他要去他要去辦那些什麼他要去查那些什麼專辦律不辦懶的那些法官齁你那那好吧我本來想請教你說你認為這句話合不合理我想說秘書長你的意思應該還是不便發表意見嘛對委員的任何發言我們都不便做評論那陳思夢委員現在也不在監察院啦是"},{"start":7382.807,"end":7407.695,"text":"好 那是齁 這個畢竟這個監察它是一個還是有連貫性的啦那我的意思只是說其實我一直不認同監察委員他利用執行監察職務的這個時候去做一些或替某些人或某些政黨去做一些服務我想今天不管誰執政我想秘書長您的想法一樣您當年的想法也是這樣子嘛好 那我們看一下齁 其實"},{"start":7410.444,"end":7437.131,"text":"最後我們看一下您的臉書其實我覺得我們如果說把這些一些東西我們稍微改寫稍微思考一下其實跟我們現在的說辭跟您當年臉書的內容其實一模一樣我們都認為監察權不應該置意妄為甚至我們認為監察院根本就應該要廢掉或停止它的運作否則"},{"start":7438.411,"end":7454.108,"text":"這段時間以來你看這些離譜的監察委員他們這麼的自願自甘作為政治的打手但是在對於民生有重大關聯性的案子卻都看不到他們的身影"},{"start":7455.35,"end":7456.491,"text":"監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案"},{"start":7476.024,"end":7501.002,"text":"我必須講一個 這個只會讓監察院跟監察委員在人民心目中的印象越來越不好就像我很討厭檢察官法官裡面一些害群之馬他利用辦案子 利用司法在做自己想做的事或為特定的公司 為特定的政治人物護航這件我也看不起 有機會揪出來我也狠狠的修理他們但是監察委員也是 立法委員也是 我覺得我們"},{"start":7502.143,"end":7527.686,"text":"還是必須依據憲法的設計在做我們該做的事情我現在的想法跟秘書長您當年在擔任立委的時候您的想法其實我現在想法還是一樣阿我現在想法還是一樣阿那只是我對委員的不便做任何評論啦是 謝謝秘書長認同啦但是我可以接受您說不便做任何評論因為我可以理解獨立行使監察權的這個概念"},{"start":7531.483,"end":7544.651,"text":"最後我還是麻煩一下秘書長今天能夠再把這個話能夠帶給高委員就是跟他講就好我沒有要干涉你們我們也無權干涉監察院內部怎麼運作但是"},{"start":7545.748,"end":7565.08,"text":"真的是苦口婆心麻煩秘書長告訴高委員凡事我覺得適可而止就好因為現在資訊很發達你今天做一件事情合不合理適不適當我覺得全民都會有眼睛在那邊看對當年的陳榮祥這樣對後來的侯友宜這樣我做證我在旁邊看我都看不下去"},{"start":7566.241,"end":7566.381,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7588.832,"end":7588.992,"text":"吳宗憲委員"},{"start":7630.23,"end":7652.178,"text":"下一位請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員下一位請黃建斌委員發言謝謝主席主席有請我們秘書長"},{"start":7657.868,"end":7665.857,"text":"黃委員早 秘書長你好 你好 你好今天我第一次來跟司法委員會 這邊想要請教一下秘書長我記得秘書長是我們立法院的前輩 這人在嘉義嘛 在做委員選是 嘉義市 秘書長在做委員選對我們高三年有很多不一樣的見解"},{"start":7676.589,"end":7700.206,"text":"本席作為質詢很好的一個養分有些理念跟想法我想可以拿來這邊跟我們的秘書長來就教一下一個簡單的問題先請教案秘書長先請問我們監委高雄城林玉榮為了調查三五年前市台會總幹事羅毅市回台遭到強制驅離這個案件就上週我們約談了新北市長侯佑儀到場說明"},{"start":7701.847,"end":7718.513,"text":"原來我們的行政院議長陳先生有出來回應說審查院本來就是憲法規定的憲政機關對於各政府機關的案件都有調查的責任跟義務甚至行政院有很多案件接受監察院的調查"},{"start":7720.087,"end":7730.599,"text":"這個沒有特別追殺的情況是外界過度的解讀希望大家尊重監察院調查成績結果我請問請教秘書長你跟母親當然一定會這樣講法"},{"start":7734.402,"end":7753.756,"text":"這件事我們有做過了解,就是說有人檢舉,檢舉侯友宇登堂時,一些以前的警察有動手做非法的動作,所以他們做了解,監察委員怎麼調查案件,我沒有任何的評論是的,本席要請教秘書長的是他的說法"},{"start":7754.597,"end":7770.014,"text":"我當然相信我們一定說的那一部分是對的,包括說監察院本來就是依照憲法規定的憲政機關對於各個機關都有調查的徵根因,這是確實的沒有不對但是院長不應該來代表監察院發言吧,他又不是監察院的發言人"},{"start":7770.968,"end":7796.835,"text":"一個行政機關 行政院 人家在問行政院院長嘛 行政院院長說監察院獨立行使職權啊是啦 秘書長 我是覺得說 行政機關跟監察院應該 它不能代表監察院來回答就是這樣子的情況齁 我覺得這樣人民不會相信 監察院的發言人是誰啦是 所以我要請教秘書長的意思是這樣嘛好 電話 我想人民不相信司法不是第一天的事情那 人民會相信監察院嗎"},{"start":7798.288,"end":7819.17,"text":"人民也有很多不相信立法院的是的 本市認為有很多優秀的進展我相信其實監察院很優秀也很認真地監察我們這個政府那這個無庸置疑啦 不過有時候真的遇到政治事件會監察院好像真的瓦解變成一個人一樣我想會做出一些意想不到的事情"},{"start":7821.471,"end":7847.503,"text":"那至於這個部分我想身為最大幕僚長我是要請教我們民進黨監察提名的這個監察院在第五屆第六屆的數據來看人民書狀案件的變動分析第五屆是每個月平均一千一百到七件第二屆是一千兩百二十七件相較第四屆的一千八百五十八件數字在減少那這個電話報告平均每個月"},{"start":7848.123,"end":7871.02,"text":"只有21.6件那我們這樣子看來每個月相較前幾屆每個月都是15件以上你講他的案件越來越小他一直在調查是不是越來越少沒有喔 調查案件沒那麼少喔我前面就報告過了上次報告過調查案件第一個他每一個案至少有兩位委員有時候甚至三位委員調查所以這個不能用純粹用數字來計算第二個我們整個的案件數並沒有減少感謝比爾主任的說明謝謝你的說明"},{"start":7876.504,"end":7887.071,"text":"比上個月增加了2799件喔是好我為什麼會提到這些當然這都是數據上啦那另外就是我們社會的觀感上面齁我想要建盟秘書訂的說你看在"},{"start":7889.249,"end":7908.503,"text":"太原監獄爆發的重大弊案這件事情,安行爆起永和區歡樂聯盟KTV槍擊殺人案件的吳哲敏遭到判無期徒刑,入獄服刑15年之後,陸續的申請在第7次的時候,他7次假釋都被駁回,2021年的時候竟然有爆發篡改這個假釋的分數讓他獲得出獄。"},{"start":7910.464,"end":7926.577,"text":"我想這個不是單一的案件 當然不管是不是這個案 監察院這一系列的作為都會讓人民懷疑 包括我們城中宴的性招待案 檢方以這個查無不罰 貪汙罪內不足 所以這個事情不代表公院可以接受性招待案"},{"start":7927.077,"end":7931.942,"text":"副秘書長,你說的是兩回事,陳中宴案在我們是彈劾案沒有過,沒有過的理由就是欠缺證據能力,還有一些台南地檢署,台南地檢署沒有起手遷截這個案子,我們另外有委員在調查中副秘書長,本席要發言的是民間的觀感,人民的觀感問題"},{"start":7949.38,"end":7949.76,"text":"委員徐巧芯"},{"start":7969.138,"end":7971.041,"text":"我們都是憲政機關共同努力來認同人民對我們各個憲政機關有信心這個是重點"},{"start":7985.542,"end":8001.111,"text":"謝謝秘書長的說明那本席利用最後的時間回想一下我們也很懷念當時的李俊祐委員你當時在做委員時你說監察院沒有存在的必要性如果臨時會沒有辦法來修憲那至少先考監兩院來封存"},{"start":8003.172,"end":8029.612,"text":"沒有辦法封存這個四字第632號有寫是的秘書長我們只是希望秘書長能夠秉持當時我跟當時的意見一樣啊修憲是立法院的權限啊立法院修憲廢除我們就立刻廢除啊相信秘書長先把四字第632號解的非常詳細啊不能因為單一不行使職權然後讓這個憲政機關停止運作啊"},{"start":8030.252,"end":8057.759,"text":"謝謝秘書長這麼詳細的聰明,我們還是要希望秘書長記得當時那一塊,以這個土地正義及公平的努力的委員、議長委員。謝謝委員,謝謝秘書長,感謝秘書長你今天的答詢,感謝你,謝謝。謝謝主席,謝謝。好,接下來我們請洪孟凱委員,洪孟凱委員,洪孟凱委員,好,那下一位我們請牛許廷委員發言。"},{"start":8065.957,"end":8095.24,"text":"謝謝主席啊 秘書長有請啊 林委員好秘書長 為什麼今天要提修法案啊這個是徐巧芯委員的組織法修正案對 你覺得為什麼我不知道你有沒有看法律法條的內容對 但是這個法案我們有意見你也有意見 你不能講你不知道啊我告訴你 今天修這個法案就是希望監察委員的任命啊可以正常一點去降低政治的色彩 對不對你同不同意是一回事啊 但你總知道這個概念吧"},{"start":8096.084,"end":8110.92,"text":"好不好那你不要講你不知道嘛我跟你講今天會談到修法用這種方式就標準要自律不成只好他律理論上來講就是立法權跟監察權應該要分進合集好好來監督政府嘛雖然秘書長你本人對於監察院的存廢"},{"start":8111.34,"end":8111.92,"text":"監察法第26條修正案"},{"start":8136.952,"end":8140.734,"text":"監察法26條有更明確的規定比如說他現在沒有規範調查報告那我們希望這個有比較明確的規定這個部分我們希望在這一次先討論這個人權專章以後我們再整理我簡單講一下三個重點"},{"start":8160.262,"end":8165.744,"text":"1.調查權行使時遵守正當法律程序及符合比例原則2."},{"start":8165.744,"end":8166.984,"text":"調查報告要有法律位階依據3."},{"start":8166.984,"end":8168.165,"text":"資訊透明有公共利益者應公開110年你們的全面談話會"},{"start":8178.968,"end":8197.979,"text":"本來應該講是監察院自己提嘛去提升自己的職能這方向是很好的可是你們開了全院談話會之後結果突然之間這法案不見了說撤回阿其實秘書長你會還原一下當天為什麼是誰提了說要把這案子撤掉的這個我那時候還沒有來我不太清楚你那時候還沒有來那你現在有沒有去了解一下當初為什麼欸你曾經做立委要提這樣的方向"},{"start":8198.459,"end":8222.934,"text":"後來自己監察院自己把他自廢武功你現在做秘書長你走過去了解一下我剛說明得很清楚我們這一次監察法的修正我們重點擺在人權專章因為我們國家人權委員會成立了三年多我們希望趕快把這個職權行使的部分確立下來那至於監察法其他部分的修正現在也有很多委員有不同的提案我們一併來整合一併來整合那本席還是要求一下你們去了解一下啦"},{"start":8223.294,"end":8245.591,"text":"當然你現在有現在的節奏這我願意尊重但你以前發生的總要了解一下哪一個監察委員這麼大膽說要撤回這個可以讓監察權行使更完整更有公信力的法案現在大家社會上面對的問題就是大家對監察院也失去信心了對法律也失去信心了這其實是一個很大的社會危機嘛那之所以大家會對監察權失去信心某一些層面當然就是因為部分的監察委員政治辦案嘛"},{"start":8245.951,"end":8260.474,"text":"比如今天大家去提的這個高永成監委非常誇張嘛段宜康當初講林昌敏這曲棍球案檢察官認為不涉案所以不起訴處分這個監察委員調查該案的時候竟然施壓重新起訴啊對不對"},{"start":8261.755,"end":8282.854,"text":"然後還違反一事不在理的原則再次彈劾卡管案的時候高永辰監委也沒有缺席啊對不對 調查台大校長臨選要求全校教授兼職資料還說出禁酒不吃吃罰酒這樣子囂張跋扈的話比起當初講出這個促轉會是東廠的這張天青可以說是毫不遜色然後"},{"start":8284.995,"end":8312.787,"text":"這個論文案重創民進黨的選情高永成也對這個余政煌發動政治清算那最近講到侯友宜市長30幾年前的舊案不說啊相關當場的這個指揮有指揮權的人不去約尋只約尋當初只是刑事組組長侯友宜這些凡此種種喔都讓大家覺得這監察委員政治辦案的這狀況是很誇張的嘛好我現在要問啦現在處理這樣子政治辦案有色眼鏡這樣子你們的自律機制是什麼"},{"start":8313.467,"end":8338.893,"text":"你們內部有沒有檢討 有沒有一些機制去講這個東西好像有點有違當初公平的原則你們內部有沒有做過這樣的討論我跟委員報告 監察院獨立行使職權所以如果他是依照程序來 而且這些都走過程序那我們當然不會走自律規範那如果有其他同仁有認為說確實影響到這個部分那我們當然會走自律規範那現在有沒有 這幾件事情新聞都鬧得蠻大的"},{"start":8339.853,"end":8365.359,"text":"目前高永成委員是每個人對他的評價不一樣啊每個人對他評價不一樣所以有問沒有嗎沒有沒有這個現在沒有討論好對這個都是依照我們的程序來相關處理的好這個喔這個秘書長過去做立法委員的時候曾經也是質詢監察院的秘書長嘛是有一樣的只是位子站的不一樣對不對你曾經質詢啊我我我這個原話轉述啊說如果立法院啊"},{"start":8366.339,"end":8379.686,"text":"討論完之後,當初針對的是那個王建宣院長那個案子嘛,就是說,如果我們討論,立法院討論完之後,說王建宣嚴重的破壞官僧,要求監察院啟動彈劾,也就是自清的話,會不會處理?欸當初他們回答是什麼?"},{"start":8381.311,"end":8400.786,"text":"你當初在這裡質詢監察院秘書長那個當初被詢的叫陳鋒義當初你有問過這樣的話嘛對不對那他當初的回答是什麼我不記得了你不記得了那我今天問原話問你啊如果我們今天立法院討論完之後因為高永成這個政治辦案實在太明顯了我們認為他嚴重破壞官僧要求監察院彈劾的時候請問你們怎麼處理"},{"start":8402.544,"end":8419.555,"text":"監察院的自律規範是我們的自律規範啊,如果監察委員認為他有影響到監察院的觀爭,那當然我們會自己走這一條路啊。我們自律規範裡面就包括提起彈劾啊。阿你剛剛講有沒有啟動自律規範,也是沒有。我告訴你,這個是我們監察院自己的權責啊。自己的權責是啊。"},{"start":8422.997,"end":8430.68,"text":"為什麼今天為什麼今天會修法就是因為大家已經對監察院已經很多失去信心這樣的修法會造成影響會影響到我們的用人以剛剛這樣這一段時間的答詢來看看起來要法治沒法治嗎我們剛講26條精神並沒有被落實第二個要問責沒問責嗎一個是監察法一個是監察院組織法這個林委員不要搞錯啦"},{"start":8444.966,"end":8445.867,"text":"監察法及監察院組織法"},{"start":8461.09,"end":8465.595,"text":"重點不是這個嘛我現在跟你講的是你用哪一條法律都沒有關係但是現在的狀況人民對於監察院第一要自律沒自律第二要問責沒問責第三要法制沒法制是很糟糕的事情"},{"start":8476.906,"end":8502.024,"text":"秘書長你曾經站在這個位置也曾經用高標準來看待監察院但我今天問你的時候你不是不清楚就是忘記了本期認為期期以為不可啦好不好我們今天討論的其實就是自律跟公信力的問題我希望監察院好好思考為什麼會發生這樣的事如何來做檢討如何來做改善這才是我們想看到的好嗎這個是監察院內部的事情好謝謝啦"},{"start":8504.833,"end":8507.314,"text":"蘇清泉委員鄭振前委員楊瓊英委員吳思瑤委員"},{"start":8540.994,"end":8541.697,"text":"謝謝主席,有請我們秘書長"},{"start":8548.069,"end":8572.377,"text":"委員長辛苦了我在這裡聆聽了其他委員的質詢我真的還是奉勸在司法法制委員會質詢的委員確實都需要把法律的脈絡連條文的本質都要搞清楚那我早上也聽到羅委員現在在場說他個人是傾向支持廢監察院非常好"},{"start":8573.177,"end":8573.277,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8589.505,"end":8617.261,"text":"我吳思瑤就是立法院第一個提出費考堅的修憲提案的立委而當時在修憲案的整個討論當中李俊毅那時候的委員也提出了很多專業的見解都有投入所以費考堅是民主進步黨長期以來的主張但是上一屆的修憲委員會從頭到尾以不出席"},{"start":8618.422,"end":8623.067,"text":"這一個的方式來阻撓費考監的提案"},{"start":8624.212,"end":8652.99,"text":"的是中國國民黨在程序上杯葛不來開會杯葛費考間的修憲提案被討論的就是中國國民黨甚至我們也一併來還原當初我們希望能夠給年輕世代更好的參政權的空間跟自由我們提起我們的憲法公民權的年限下修到18歲也是在國民黨的"},{"start":8653.65,"end":8682.796,"text":"消極杯葛之下非常遺憾的功虧一簣這是還原真相如果國民黨的委員羅志祥委員您願意支持廢監察院未來修憲的過程我們一起來加入廢考監的程序好謝謝進入我今天的主題我要說國民黨版的監察院組織法的修法萬萬要三思喔下一頁"},{"start":8684.347,"end":8709.495,"text":"這次的修法聚焦在第三條之一第一款第六款要刪除我認為這就嚴重的限縮了監委任命跟監察院組成的多元性進一步的更破壞了憲法的權力分立的原則是不是秘書長是我們是這樣認為我觀察的兩個重點期期以為不可的就是這兩個"},{"start":8711.536,"end":8714.74,"text":"條文款項的刪除就會限縮了監委的組成的"},{"start":8726.796,"end":8752.471,"text":"監察院的常設委員會有非常多,就如同立法院,它需要內政、外交、社會福利、財經、教育文化、交通採購、司法、育政,另外plus就是國家人權委員會。所以它需要的專業面向是非常的多元。所以我們都希望監察委員的任命來自於非常豐沛的社會的人才庫裡頭來挑選下一頁。"},{"start":8755.433,"end":8779.111,"text":"如果修法限縮了第一款跟第六款將迫使未來監察委員可以被提名任用的這個人才來源只剩下法界公務體系以及學者這些面向相對的在取材的管道上就有所限縮對不對是好下一頁"},{"start":8780.272,"end":8799.957,"text":"這是我自己努力去整理啊我並沒有獲得你們的這個內部的當初提名用的哪一款但我自己很努力的去整理出來這個秘書長可以指正啊正因為現在有監察院組織法三之一條的第一款監察委員他可以來延攬曾任立委"},{"start":8800.757,"end":8818.134,"text":"一任或是直轄市議員兩任以上而且他要有好的表現社會形象是佳的專業能力是強的因為有這樣一個條款的授權你看第4屆有6位從院長王建宣也是用這一條"},{"start":8819.755,"end":8847.355,"text":"紅昭南黃黃雄趙昌平陳建民錢林慧君大概第4屆6位沿用這一款第5屆有田秋瑾張仁香江以文趙詠卿瓦莉絲貝琳這我自己整理的第6屆我們的副院長李鴻鈞也是用這個條款還有葉怡君王榮章賴政昌范迅綠陳景俊跟國務委員報告王榮章委員這一次是用第7款他用第7款"},{"start":8848.595,"end":8850.136,"text":"有新黨的有親民黨的有國民黨的有民進黨還有台聯"},{"start":8874.492,"end":8896.584,"text":"所以只要是好的人才他承認立委承認執霞是議員他有足夠的專業在政治經驗上跟政策的能量上有助於他履行監委的職責過去81年寫在第一款最主要理由就是因為立委或是執霞是兩任以上他對監督政府比較有經驗他沒有銜接上的問題"},{"start":8897.745,"end":8912.091,"text":"沒有錯秘書長替我補充了一個很重要的前提明代的經驗真的有助於監委查案辦案好下一頁我們再來整理出第6款如果我整理錯秘書長也可以指正"},{"start":8912.831,"end":8916.434,"text":"我們同樣因為有了第6款的授權可以豐富兼為組成的多元面向第4屆就有劉新善、螞蟻宮、吳豐山第5屆連前院長張柏雅、孫大川、王佑林、常桂美、王美玉、林慎峰、楊芳玲都是適用第6款"},{"start":8933.49,"end":8956.91,"text":"第6屆有4位包括現任的陳菊院長、林勝峰監委、王美玉監委、普忠誠監委第6款是什麼?就是他富有政治經驗或是主持新聞文化事業有相當的正面聲譽所以這個部分如果連第6款都砍掉了這些A5屆的院長、副院長就通通不見了就通通不見了 對不對?所以這樣子的砍"},{"start":8960.906,"end":8987.748,"text":"條款要限縮監委的人才的來源我認為這是戴著有色的眼鏡這是有針對性有選擇性而且是不顧監察院的職權行使他甚至就是要癱瘓監察院我這樣說你的理解我剛剛報告的時候說明過監察院最重要的是委員組成的多元性是那這樣子的修法會限縮我們的多元性沒有錯謝謝下一頁"},{"start":8990.137,"end":9011.974,"text":"回到憲政體制我再一次說非常的遺憾司法法制委員會再一次有修法來凌駕憲法就五權分立的憲法運作的原則提名權在行政權就監委的部分是總統提名立法權是行使同意權"},{"start":9013.015,"end":9015.637,"text":"我剛才說明過了 如果限縮這兩個條款其實相對程度也限縮了總統的提名權"},{"start":9039.311,"end":9048.3,"text":"總統有提名權 立法院有同意權這是兩個不同的概念所以違憲的條文不要再來了下一頁 最後一頁"},{"start":9050.01,"end":9072.111,"text":"這次還有一個條文就是要把監委行使職權超越黨派看起來講得好像很正面但事實上我認為他是一個規範過檔的修法我們當然認為監察委員需要超出黨派嘛只要他任監委他就要退出政黨的活動不再參與政治活動"},{"start":9073.223,"end":9099.914,"text":"但是呢現在如果要把它擴大到10年內曾加入政黨或參與任何政治行動活動者不得為監察委員這不就又剝奪了憲法保障的個人的參政自由嗎而且10年是非常過當的一個限制來秘書長請說10年這個集會結社的自由是人民應有的權利那10年前我從沒有辦法預期說我會不會當監察委員我會考慮這個嗎"},{"start":9100.734,"end":9116.922,"text":"所以有限縮人民集會結社的疑慮那第二個部分是這裡的政治活動其實定義不清楚它的範圍到底到什麼程度參加遊行算不算政治活動參加call in算不算政治活動或是其他那我們這個部分除了"},{"start":9117.702,"end":9131.872,"text":"必須監察委員必須獨立行使職權以外我們的自律規範也規範得很清楚不能助講不能成功復選也不能夠都不行這個我們的自律規範很清楚所以沒有必要在組織法裡面再行這樣做政治活動難以定義而且也抵觸了憲法保障的參政權最後一項我也要說有感而發就發生在立法院立法院修正我們自己的內規政府院長要議事中立"},{"start":9148.123,"end":9150.604,"text":"政府院長要退出政治活動"},{"start":9167.392,"end":9169.613,"text":"那韓國瑜院長跟江啟臣副院長有沒有帶頭作為表率來履行立法院我們職權行使相關法規的議事中立的原則呢?所以要刮尖尾的鬍子之前"},{"start":9183.081,"end":9204.379,"text":"也要瓜瓜立法委員自己的我做這樣的補充所以最後我還是希望大家理性看待修法立委再大也不能比憲法大立委再大也不能把手伸到監察院裡頭去管東管西而且是過當的管制我希望大家能夠三思好 謝謝秘書長 謝謝主席謝謝委員"},{"start":9209.841,"end":9213.204,"text":"五分鐘回來之後我們處理有兩件臨時提案五分鐘回來的時候處理"},{"start":9568.542,"end":9595.179,"text":"好喘好那我們現在開始開會處理臨時提案共兩案請一併宣讀宣讀後再主案處理請宣讀臨時提案一列以有鑒於監察院長陳菊遭檢舉於2023年12月30日赴高雄舊城教會違法為特定立委候選人服選鑒請監察院依據監察院"},{"start":9597.06,"end":9623.683,"text":"監察委員紀律委員會設置辦法第二條第一項第一款本會致任務如左依關於人民陳述之監察委員違法失職或違反監察委員自律規範案件之審議處理事項啟動調查避免監察院長一再敗壞官真讓國人對監察院越加失望提案人委員黃國昌、傅君琦、翁曉琳、吳宗憲、林思銘"},{"start":9625.673,"end":9642.66,"text":"臨時提案二略以有鑒於諸多民眾陳情及反映,監察委員高永誠之行使職權,從曲棍球案、卡管案、論文案及近期市台會總幹事羅懿市回台遭強制驅逐出境案,"},{"start":9644.221,"end":9671.021,"text":"均有政治介入的疑慮。建請監察院依據《監察院監察委員紀律委員會設置辦法》第二條第一項第一款關於人民陳述之監察委員違法失職或違反監察委員自律規範案件之審議處理事項將監察委員高永成移送監察院紀律委員會以調查有無民眾認為違法失職之處提案人委員羅志強"},{"start":9672.222,"end":9697.792,"text":"翁曉琳 傅君綺 林思銘宣讀完畢好 謝謝那我們現在先處理臨時提案第一案請問提案委員有無補充說明好 請補充這個案子其實剛剛在詢答的過程當中我想應該已經表達得很清楚了因為去年我開始公開檢舉這件事情"},{"start":9699.953,"end":9708.904,"text":"不過按照今天詢答的內容我們的監察院秘書長說沒有人選舉所以整個自律的程序都還沒有啟動"},{"start":9710.563,"end":9731.545,"text":"我覺得從監察院的角度上面來看監察院在面對自家人是不是有違法服選這件事情恐怕不是監察院院長自己說了就算如果這個事情是監察院院長自己就說了算沒有啟動任何自律調查的程序的話"},{"start":9732.694,"end":9758.065,"text":"那真的是讓人舒難想像如果要按照以後相同的標準的話那任何要被糾取、要被糾正、要被彈劾的人他也可以跟陳菊一樣有樣學樣自己發一個新聞稿說我的新聞稿裡面已經講得很清楚了這個事情沒有再什麼樣子說明或者是調查的必要這個顯然啦 這個顯然"},{"start":9760.666,"end":9788.862,"text":"可能跟我們對於監察院他所應該在被廢止以前所應該扮演的角色以及所期待的標準大相徑庭那既然今天在詢答的過程當中秘書長已經很清楚的說了目前沒有任何的啟動程序來加以調查而依照監察院監察委員紀律委員會設置辦法只要有人名陳述的話那他們就要啟動調查"},{"start":9790.123,"end":9803.534,"text":"那我今天就公開而且直接的去做了這樣子的檢舉啟動他們的自立調查程序以上說明 謝謝好 謝謝那請問機關有沒有要補充說明"},{"start":9810.43,"end":9830.523,"text":"依據我們的這個自律規範這個部分我們任何人如果認為公務員設有違私可以向監察院檢舉那本院就會依照法定程序處理所以今天的提案兩個都算是人民提出這個檢舉案那我們就依法定程序處理但是裡面有一些文字是不是可以建議做修正好 謝謝那好柯總召"},{"start":9841.159,"end":9862.356,"text":"這不是政治鬥爭,什麼來就是政治鬥爭?到底有沒有去瞭解當天的情況是怎麼樣?有政治鬥爭在場嗎?陳其現場也在發表新聞表表示,那當天只車上有酒,然後就用這個看圖片說故事。我告訴你委員,你作為這樣"},{"start":9864.977,"end":9877.545,"text":"打手然後反正不同立場的你就重新門打看圖說故事我們要了解齁剛才秘書長也講過能免檢舉就能免檢舉嘛你可以檢舉啊"},{"start":9880.799,"end":9907.384,"text":"主要是在宴席之間的事情的話可以由立法院發動檢舉發動他們要啟動啟動這個內部的調查成績以及的紀委會那主要照這樣的標準的話權力分裂原則在什麼地方今天主要對面的夫婚期再中反彈再反彈再到中國房屋"},{"start":9909.113,"end":9934.071,"text":"你請我講話嘛 你說是和平之理 破平之理我看這個是賣台之理吧 要遵守的話 這樣可以吧行政院跟監察院可以請問給 做結議請問給你 你反正要送紀委會嗎因為你太離譜了嘛 黃國昌你要聽人家講 你不知道整天黑夜去跟人家說什麼事實現象是怎麼樣 你會不會搞清楚"},{"start":9938.6,"end":9938.985,"text":"鍾佳斌委員"},{"start":9947.014,"end":9974.644,"text":"主席我們對於委員會跟院會之間的職權我想在司法法制委員會的委員我們會對跟其他委員相較我們更高的要求那我這邊也請主席可以稍微釐清一下因為委員會在座我們很多委員過去在學生時代也擔任過學生議會的議員都知道議事規則其實目前的委員會他是呈院會之命"},{"start":9975.824,"end":10001.04,"text":"進行包括法案的審查包括預案的審查當然也會在施政報告總諮詢之後也會開始讓各部會向各委員會進行業務報告委員會本身的臨時提案他就被拘束在這些院會交給委員會的工作當中所以一般我們委員會的臨時提案多半是針對業務報告的部門"},{"start":10003.366,"end":10018.707,"text":"請他進一步的提供補充的說明或者是說就法案的審理過程當中需要業務機關提出必要的資訊我們才能去審議法案或者說我們在審議預算的過程當中我們需要提供過去執行的證明"},{"start":10020.055,"end":10039.289,"text":"這些或許在地方議會稱之為所知但是在委員會是一個常態我們要求受監督機關就是行政院包括各部會因為我們受院會的委託所進行的這些各類審查在委員會進行的時候我們所必要的所以我們才做成了決議"},{"start":10040.47,"end":10062.099,"text":"因此我們今天這兩個提案在場我們必須審視這兩個提案跟院會交付給我們本委員會的法律修正案的審查的關聯性是什麼如果能夠具體說明我相信我們本委員會做成的決議比較上就比較符合一個國會運作委員會體力的一個職權行使"},{"start":10065.62,"end":10081.401,"text":"但是我還是要提醒的,陳儒過去我在當輪次召委都會提醒委員,其實監察院也好,司法院也好,它都是跟立法院一樣的憲政機關,而憲政機關只有行政院依憲法向立法院負責。"},{"start":10082.932,"end":10099.35,"text":"立法院包括院會也不會對於司法院或監察院在法案跟預算以外他的獨立行使職權有任何的要求也不具有這樣的權利大法官的解釋都非常的清楚所以我剛剛有點遺憾的聽到了我們"},{"start":10103.034,"end":10121.176,"text":"監察院秘書長說,這個提案可能他會視為一般人民陳情案來處理。如果是一般人民陳情案,其實就根本不需要委員會在這邊做討論。本席剛剛在詞詢的時候,也就這樣的部分,包括有國民黨的總召"},{"start":10122.277,"end":10137.544,"text":"率團17人到中國去其中有包括國防外交委員會的委員才在本月上上週出席了一個院內的一個機密會議秘密會議在這種情況之下立法院有沒有去做列管"},{"start":10139.039,"end":10157.73,"text":"秘書長說,委員的部分不在監察院的職權行使對象,但是立法院的公務員,如果代乎職守,是在監察院的調查糾正範圍內,所以他請本席如果有提出,那監察院當然就會來受理。"},{"start":10158.49,"end":10172.406,"text":"所以如果是這樣子我是建議主席這個案子都要處理既然提案委員有這樣的要求監察院也會受理是不是我們今天根本無待決議就直接由委員個人向監察院提出這樣的檢舉"},{"start":10173.527,"end":10201.983,"text":"不管是檢舉立法院的公務員對於人員附中涉密人員附中的列管疏失或者是對於其他機關有公務人員失職的部分都可以依請監察院來作為一個調查做一個處置我覺得這才符合憲政機關應有的作為也符合本委員會呈院會之命受理進行預算或法案審查所應有的作為以上請主席"},{"start":10202.363,"end":10204.544,"text":"主席各位同仁我想這個今天兩個臨時提案我們看一下其實"},{"start":10232.759,"end":10250.852,"text":"大家都知道說這個是政治性提案因為這個依法來講我們立法院是沒有任何權力依權力分立的原則我們也是沒有權力要求監察院幹嘛因此我都看了兩個提案是啦我們都是用建請監察院為什麼用建請"},{"start":10251.713,"end":10266.215,"text":"因為我們知道我們自己寫提案的人都知道說我們沒有權利要求監察院做什麼這是第一件事第二件事兩個臨時提案的核心精神我看了兩個臨時提案最核心的都是監察院監察委員自律規範"},{"start":10269.108,"end":10284.287,"text":"這個自律規範然後這個自律這兩個字我不曉得是不是是不是大家不太理解自律這兩個字吼就像我們立法院的這個自律自律規範我們也也也這個也也不是法律啊這裡就說違反自律規範這個"},{"start":10286.567,"end":10307.143,"text":"有這個指揮違法行徑他就不是法為什麼違法那既然是自律為什麼今天立法院要求又提案提案說你你你自律今天如果說監察院哪個監察委員提案子說立法院應該要把誰送立法院紀律委員會那這個我們立法院敢不懂"},{"start":10308.044,"end":10308.084,"text":"主席"},{"start":10340.486,"end":10363.264,"text":"憲法中修條文第7條也明白的寫著說我們監察委員獨立行使職權他就是獨立行使職權我們這個臨時提案羅志祥委員的臨時提案這裡就指明哪一個立法委員辦什麼案子的時候你們這些提案人認為他有政治介入的疑慮但是憲法就寫他獨立行使職權"},{"start":10367.313,"end":10374.964,"text":"這個就像我們遇到司法案件的口農法官,我們也不能說哪一個法官我們立法院決議哪一個法官你的判決是有問題的"},{"start":10376.598,"end":10398.921,"text":"你個人可以對他有評價,但是我們立法院做成決議說獨立行使職權的人,你的行使職權的方法我有意見。這個我認為是就直接違反了憲法這個監察委員獨立行使職權的這樣子的精神。尤其我們是立法院,我們是權力分立之中的一個角色,我們不是一般的民眾,也不是政論節目,這裡也不是政論節目,call in節目。"},{"start":10400.282,"end":10419.438,"text":"所以我是希望說大家三思啦這個表決我們當然是輸啦齁因為這個我們主席要特別休息等我們副總召 副坤崎總召趕到現場才來 才開會啦那我們表決當然是輸啦載令啦齁 多累甲載令啦阿但是大家講講道理這出去社會都有公平了我是希望說大家講講道理以上"},{"start":10420.674,"end":10420.854,"text":"建請監察院"},{"start":10436.081,"end":10441.105,"text":"不是命令監察院是建請以前在法院的時候檢察官是具體求處多少年後來被要說具體這是有點命令性後來改成都是建請因為建請兩個字就不會違反就不會認為是一個強制的要求所以"},{"start":10456.977,"end":10457.998,"text":"主席啊 對不起 會議詢問"},{"start":10484.532,"end":10494.706,"text":"會議許願有限嘛我只有個簡單的問題啦我們現在發言的狀態是不需要經過主席同意大家隨便按麥克風都可以發言嗎"},{"start":10495.8,"end":10514.902,"text":"依照行為法是要由主席這邊決定那如果是這樣子的話我要拜託主席請您執行這樣的規範規範是怎麼樣都沒有關係大家喜歡按麥克風發言就按麥克風發言如果規範是這樣也沒有關係說清楚講明白"},{"start":10515.743,"end":10538.268,"text":"那如果不是這樣的話請主席等一下沒有你點到發言的自己致意的按麥克風發言請主席主持會議自止謝謝好那依照立法委員行為法那在議會在那個這個議程進行期間還是要由主席這邊來來決定那我想說是不是"},{"start":10538.908,"end":10539.468,"text":"司法及法制委員會綠色迴力標"},{"start":10557.951,"end":10577.887,"text":"真是驚奇萬分啊什麼回立標飛來飛去打來打去全部往民進黨身上招呼啊來我唸一句話給大家聽明言啊真是佩服啊祕書長我最後請教你一個問題如果立法院說王健軒嚴重破壞官僧要求監察院彈劾你們會不會處理啊這句話誰說的啊誰說的啊這句話就是我們在座的李敬義祕書長當立委的時候說的啊"},{"start":10587.29,"end":10609.9,"text":"了不起啊 彈劾都可以啊 都可以要求彈劾啦結果呢 現在現請 這個把陳菊 高永成 送自律委員會我們禮儀秘書長都講啦 本來就可以啊結果馬上這些護航部隊喔 非常熱鬧精彩啊 迫不及待啊"},{"start":10611.158,"end":10614.899,"text":"今天我們國參委員臨時提案就表達立法院的我們司法法制委員會我們的態度阿"},{"start":10640.798,"end":10658.76,"text":"監察院今天一個陳菊到底你今天有沒有違反行政中立你本來就應該好好調查了解啊監察院你不做我們立法院我們司法法制委員會我們就代表民意然後做出一個正式的一個決議請我們監察院慎重考慮嘛"},{"start":10659.841,"end":10672.19,"text":"就是移送自立委員會嘛 好好調查調查嘛機制上反正就可以就像我們李俊逸都可以要求彈劾王健軒了我跟各位講 你知道當時的秘書長怎麼回答嗎"},{"start":10673.846,"end":10690.673,"text":"當時秘書長怎麼回答?我們李靜玉說忘了啦問他已經忘了啦但是我們的秘書長 當時的秘書長回答說就依程序進行啦一樣啊 今天送出去就依程序進行不要緊張 不要回立標 不要再打李靜玉都是同黨同志 照顧一下 謝謝"},{"start":10694.2,"end":10695.961,"text":"請問還有哪位委員要發言?"},{"start":10724.978,"end":10752.195,"text":"有事實的話我不認為監察院他連回答都不敢回答都不用回答尤其是黃國昌委員現在在立法院份量是是這個不可同日而語的那我倒會覺得啦你說一個案子你可以自己去做一個檢舉的那你用在特別要用立法院來這邊在委員會裡面做表決那萬一表決沒有通過呢"},{"start":10754.175,"end":10765.16,"text":"不是很怪嗎那一個這個案子一看就知道充滿著政治性嘛我相信黃國昌委員你也我們這樣講說你這個案子充滿政治性你也不能講說我們講的沒有道理嘛那我倒會覺得啦像這種案件來講的話你讓他給呈案的話不需要經過委員會就可以呈案就可以去做的事情那偏偏要捨棄這樣的一個卷舉的方式在委員會裡面來做這樣的一個提案"},{"start":10783.527,"end":10806.835,"text":"我倒會覺得說 多此一舉啦 那我想 是不是啊國民黨委員跟提案人 這個地方有你們的一個看法 我們表示尊重那民進黨很明顯的 我們有不一樣的一個看法那不一樣的看法呢 又不是說一定要到最後用比較絕對的一個方式才可以達到你的一個目的所以 可以再請黃委員再考慮一下"},{"start":10810.164,"end":10810.725,"text":"副主席"},{"start":10820.461,"end":10832.809,"text":"那大家發言一次完就可以了啦,就表決啦,反正也沒什麼意思啦,不然就現在就表決,我提一下表決,每個人,那吳世堯先講啊,不是要先講啊主席,你去找主席,他會比較有機會,我去找大家,這比較不行那我要提停止討論喔,那先讓吳世堯先講好不好,總召,你剛剛講過,讓吳世堯先講啦"},{"start":10843.055,"end":10848.999,"text":"請問現在是什麼發言秩序已經登記完畢以後要停止討論這樣好了啦就是說我們都一人發言一次好不好"},{"start":10860.847,"end":10877.519,"text":"竹蘭更改遊戲規則主席你最好這樣好不好我們現在這邊就因為我剛已經答應那個對我們剛已經答應總召了所以我們讓總召再發一次然後之後大家一人發一次那個國民黨這邊也一樣我們讓議事順利一點啦彈心理順利一點結檢票啦不准記吧你表格有問題啊你講一下"},{"start":10887.185,"end":10907.338,"text":"所以齁 大家一種基本的民主素養齁 剛才你提到女記在委員會發言是不是如果在委員會發言 王立堅應該下台啊 這立法院並不是做結議啊是審查他們預算的時候 預算法律案的時候做這樣的發言啊"},{"start":10908.844,"end":10936.912,"text":"對 要了解 當年王建恩怎麼講的他 立法院 監察院就是 婚委院 因為把他關起來他自己還去告 裡面的監察委員他最大問題是什麼他把 輪廊一些不讓黨產 黨產只要銷毀這何其大事啊 你們要了解整個過去是怎麼樣的情形王建恩是自己 還有在監察院裡面啊 汪明莎等等 荒謬的行為一大堆所以立法院在這裡做一個"},{"start":10941.448,"end":10962.805,"text":"提出一些看法不可以嗎?所以這個不是當然這個不是結議案今天你是用結議案一個非事實東西來揭殺到底陳吉田長員講得很清楚吧他這酒是放在車廂有看到一張照片就代表他去會選"},{"start":10965.227,"end":10984.02,"text":"當天也沒有候選人在場侯昌明司法協博士我告訴你大法官461號解釋你自己看清楚1998年的時候那時候我們還在議黨的時候所有國民黨和民進黨委員都認為指認參謀總長的常委應該來立法院被刑常委不來"},{"start":10989.844,"end":11014.539,"text":"後來去大法院解釋司令會出來以後就說因為唐安徽當參謀總長過去是不用背刑的但是他有主導而且共同主導所謂的國防預算以及國防政策以乃至於國防法案所以他必須要來立法院背刑那時候司令會解釋出來是什麼五院院長"},{"start":11016.421,"end":11034.662,"text":"包括監察院、院長、監察委員等不予行使之前的不用來立法院但是呢要來的只有像秘書長要來因為他是代表監察院來說明預算法案所以這個事情像今天是處理法案所以秘書長必須來這種很嚴謹的潛力覆力原則"},{"start":11036.834,"end":11037.274,"text":"主席主席主席主席主席"},{"start":11061.003,"end":11061.804,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":11071.766,"end":11071.926,"text":"翁小林委員"},{"start":11096.924,"end":11113.551,"text":"針對這兩個臨時提案當然等一下會進入表決但是我們在立法院還是要秉持我們的職責我要做成發言的記錄那今天的提案一跟提案二非常清楚的就是一個針對性跟選擇性的政治性的提案那針對各案"},{"start":11115.144,"end":11135.628,"text":"來透過決議的方式我非常同意說各別的委員你對於各別的個案有提出你的看法觀點你可以利用你個人質詢的時間去為之大家互相尊重但是因為今天這兩個提案都是要透過司法法制委員會的共同決定這當然就不可不慎了"},{"start":11136.363,"end":11162.979,"text":"那以多數然後就硬要把不適宜成為提案的案由然後成為提案強行通過我要再次說明我非常不認同這個說法那就提案一的部分我覺得這個是很清楚的是一再的針對個人性就這個陳菊院長有沒有在你所指涉的去年12月30號當天"},{"start":11166.201,"end":11183.404,"text":"他有沒有去助選這個相關當事人第一個就是陳菊院長他很清楚的說他是去教會訪友第二個被影射的去被助選的那個當事人現在也是我們的立法院的同事他也很清楚的他當天沒有在場"},{"start":11184.332,"end":11198.208,"text":"一個候選人沒有在場的場子可以被說成是替候選人造勢助選所以相關當事人都清楚的澄清了而且當下在這個教會也沒有被拍到任何助選相關的行為"},{"start":11199.449,"end":11226.925,"text":"那看到黑影就在開情,黑白亂開情然後今天在這裡提案當事人的澄清都一再的視而不見這種機是成機非成是我實在非常沒有辦法容忍這種行徑喔如果黃國昌委員你這麼有正義感那建議你針對你們主席所涉入的這個金華城的案子市北科的案子或者是台智光的案子是不是更應當去徹查呢"},{"start":11228.806,"end":11229.608,"text":"你的正義會轉彎,你的正義是有選擇性的。"},{"start":11233.345,"end":11257.427,"text":"就提案二的部分我更認為其實以為不可啊立法委員怎麼可以針對各案去左右阻撓監委的辦案呢查案呢我們司法法制委員會讓我覺得非常的遺憾是我們一再的看到委員利用質詢好我尊重每個人質詢的時間可是我們在質詢時有多少委員針對各案要求給我查給我查你查的不夠不夠再查"},{"start":11259.429,"end":11264.512,"text":"都在左右各案結果呢今天監委也不過是行使他的職權啊而且這個查案辦案的結果是什麼都還不知道我們要尊重監委的職權嘛那現在不准人家查這就是你們的預設立場"},{"start":11276.998,"end":11304.872,"text":"這完全就是邏輯的矛盾你每天在司法法制委員會叫別人查什麼案查得不滿你的意要繼續查你就是在說別人是在掩護是在護航現在監委立了一個案依他的職權行使你限制人家查案我從來沒有看過這麼真的立委再大也不能夠去叫監委往東就往東往西就往西我們立法院不是習近平啊"},{"start":11305.572,"end":11305.932,"text":"謝謝,那我們接下來請翁曉林委員"},{"start":11324.813,"end":11325.153,"text":"民進黨立委段宜康"},{"start":11356.454,"end":11377.849,"text":"議員和候選人站台合照並且還當面向監察院秘書長傅孟榮要求並且將這個提案提報到監察院的紀律委員會不是就是段宜康委員不是這麼做嗎?這個不是說不一樣這代表說立法委員其實都同樣都有這樣的一個權利"},{"start":11379.95,"end":11402.264,"text":"提案基本上是每個委員都有這樣的權利而且更何況今天這兩個提案基本上也是回到監察院請監察院自己要去針對院長還有委員監察委員有沒有失職的部分進行調查這怎麼不可以這難道不是立法院應該要監督監察院的一個很重要的職權嗎所以"},{"start":11405.219,"end":11432.307,"text":"但是我們不是叫我們是代表民意我們希望監察院能夠自己約束自己監察委員的行為這也是我一再強調現在監察院監察委員自律規範的法律位階不夠應該要比照像是立法院行為法要提升他的法律位階那麼我想這個案子大家已經討論很久了是不是可以請主席直接就這兩個提案進行表決謝謝"},{"start":11434.838,"end":11462.722,"text":"好 那個聽起來就是對於這個雙方共識差距太大那我們就直接進行表決好了好 那我們現在先清點人數好 我們現在先處理臨時提案第一案那我們現在進行表決那我們是採舉手表決那表決前請先清點在場出席委員的人數"},{"start":11466.527,"end":11494.277,"text":"好那在場出席委員12位那我們現在開始進行表決贊成者請舉手第一案阿現在在處理第一案阿好贊成者6位請放下反對者請舉手反對者6位好請放下好那"},{"start":11495.711,"end":11523.431,"text":"表決結果,在場初期委員12人,贊成6位,反對6位,贊成者與反對者同訴。依據委員會組織法第10條規定,初期委員過半數決議,可否同訴時取決於主席。現在主席表示贊成,所以表決結果為,在場初期委員13人,贊成7人,反對6人,本案贊成者多數通過。"},{"start":11527.134,"end":11555.865,"text":"我們接下來處理第二案請第二案的提案委員有無補充說明我們先補充說明完再大家討論我的補充說明是幫我們的柯總召來說因為我是非常欣賞柯總召經常都有智慧之語他剛剛在前面階段針對提案一說這不是政治鬥爭什麼是政治鬥爭說實在太好了"},{"start":11556.816,"end":11579.99,"text":"這個提案真的是真心奉勸民進黨高永城真的太離譜了這麼多年來政治鬥爭已經到了無以復加的地步民進黨完全就無視這個政治鬥爭的一個政策你說監察院要把它批評東廠最大的禍首之一就是高永城"},{"start":11582.093,"end":11598.645,"text":"段宜康的曲棍球案請問他是不是在干涉司法然後這個被民進黨認證2022年的敗選的戰犯林志堅連民進黨都不敢幫他背書他跑去查被害人余政煌現在"},{"start":11601.414,"end":11623.794,"text":"放著這麼多的案子不查來去追殺侯友宜所以我直接說今天我們也希望能夠建請監察院能夠把這個已經是完全的這個做政治追殺政治鬥爭的打手的高永成以治癒機制來疫情調查以上"},{"start":11628.065,"end":11632.488,"text":"我們討論每人發言一次,這樣才不會讓會議進行延宕我覺得各黨有建議提議,一邊派一個講就好了,一位就好了,那就表決了"},{"start":11656.85,"end":11668.574,"text":"主席 主席會議詢問先生有台下指揮 台上指紋 主持會議嗎我建議啊 我建議啊 不然他就提 那這樣喔 主席 他這樣講我接受啦我提案停止討論表決啦"},{"start":11670.233,"end":11697.767,"text":"每個人都可以講我已經都推動柯總召你要剝奪柯總召的發言嗎我跟你講那個跟各位報告齁不是說聽誰指揮啦剛剛柯總召有意見我是不是也是說好柯總召讓他講嘛我的立場很簡單就是讓會議進行順利所以每個人的發言我覺得有道理就聽沒有道理我就就沒有聽嘛就這樣嘛我就希望議會議事"},{"start":11699.068,"end":11721.039,"text":"主持順利而已啊你不要擔心啦,你不會變白啦好,那我們現在請柯總召發言主席啊,你應該檢察官是真的吧,對不對檢察官發言是自己,是主委主委之前,因為就是我後面指揮你當主席,竟然都委員一直在指揮你如何處理程序"},{"start":11722.643,"end":11745.621,"text":"你沒回答啦我講完嘛反正等一下你會用行動記錄表示你的意見你的更多啊我簡單講就好這個一個監察委員他一個任期內辦案何其多啊你招幾個用有色眼光來看待有政治之嫌就可以來處理他"},{"start":11747.881,"end":11748.141,"text":"好,那總統早,總統早"},{"start":11774.544,"end":11777.372,"text":"對,一次啦,我覺得都一次好了,就快一點"},{"start":11779.21,"end":11807.377,"text":"主席謝謝委員我還是覺得可以提醒一下提案委員因為今天的質詢因為時間的關係後半段關於所提到的目前監察院有委員在行使調查我可以提醒大家因為這是很善意的提醒了解提案委員調查委員的意識就是為什麼監察院受理人民陳情他要啟動調查其實我們都以為是要針對被調查人的責任"},{"start":11807.777,"end":11808.538,"text":"根據我們2022年通過的權力回復條例"},{"start":11837.859,"end":11860.216,"text":"當事人要向這個全副會來受理這樣的權益侵害,他必須要有一個權威的調查結果。所以我認為呢,平心而論,大家聽聽看,我知道謝委員有注意在聽我這樣子講。這個本案的調查委員的用意,未必是要針對被調查者,就是那個涉及可能違法行使公權利的公務員。"},{"start":11860.996,"end":11861.377,"text":"主席"},{"start":11881.369,"end":11898.705,"text":"這才是這個調查本身我覺得調查委員的用意如果大家可以體察這樣的用意不要太用政治性的角度來思考很清楚的本案就有公務人就算是違法他也超過了目前監察院行使要對他彈劾的這個時效性了"},{"start":11899.446,"end":11925.26,"text":"所以或許是不是給當時的對照人就受害的民眾他有機會透過監察院的調查來申請回復他權利所必要的補償我覺得這一點在社會上一直沒有很清楚的被討論所以提請大家我們委員在思考這個提案的時候我們注意到大家的力氣用對地方以上懇請主席來做一個說明"},{"start":11930.195,"end":11948.412,"text":"請問還有哪位委員要發言?針對提案二,如果我沒有看錯,這個被調查的對象之一,侯友宜市長他很清楚地說,他坦蕩蕩,他也樂於接受調查。"},{"start":11949.195,"end":11959.964,"text":"所以當事人侯友宜都表達他不害怕接受調查那不曉得提案的委員在害怕什麼以意圖要去阻卻監委獨立行使他的調查權"},{"start":11961.993,"end":11981.892,"text":"同一個委員會的委員我也是不好意思提醒一下黃國昌委員你們的柯文哲主席也都說這個黨團投票可以不用一次進出同樣的表態黨團民眾黨內部都可以有自由意志的行使那當然黃國昌總召今天也不一定要都要跟著傅坤祺總召走"},{"start":11984.974,"end":12008.199,"text":"主席說的事情也提醒一下黃總召希望能夠在一些對付困境走了不在你也可以行使你的個人意志我做這個提醒好 那個羅委員我是提案說明阿對不要那麼緊張嘛好不好還是那個黃國昌委員還是哪一位先好 國昌委員"},{"start":12011.946,"end":12036.339,"text":"我想針對這一個提案本身它有它一定的射程範圍但我只想要幫基層的檢察官說幾句話這個案子我支持我為什麼支持呢一個立委公開指控區棍球協會理事長涉及這裏檢察官偵辦的結果"},{"start":12040.475,"end":12065.248,"text":"他不高興就跑去施壓監察委員民進黨自己提名的監察委員然後針對這件事情要啟動調查到底是誰在破壞監察院獨立行使職權結果追殺一次還不夠懲戒法庭已經決議沒有要懲戒再搞第二次"},{"start":12066.496,"end":12093.956,"text":"我把基層檢察官組成的建清檢改當初的抨擊在委員會留下記錄人權監察院的人權監委為了護航政治勢力公然追殺報復承辦個案的基層檢察官難道監察院是想要殺雞儆猴讓全國檢察官敬若寒蟬"},{"start":12095.445,"end":12123.929,"text":"對政治正確的權貴違法亂紀之事縮手裝死福音新興政治權貴嗎?蔡總統這就是您一再提名連任的監察委員嗎?這是當初基層檢察官所提出來的怒吼我覺得這些監察這些基層的檢察官必須要有一個公道還給他們以上"},{"start":12126.016,"end":12126.556,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":12151.152,"end":12172.527,"text":"臨時提案的第二案我們現在進行表決表決是用舉手表決的方式表決前請先清點在場出席委員人數在場出席委員12位現在開始表決戰爭者請舉手"},{"start":12177.242,"end":12178.222,"text":"站成者與反對者同署"},{"start":12198.049,"end":12211.607,"text":"可否同訴時取決於主席,現在主席表示贊成。所以表決結果為在場出席委員13人,贊成者7人,反對者6人,本案證者多數通過。"},{"start":12214.607,"end":12228.733,"text":"臨時停案已經處理完畢,現在繼續進行詢答接下來請翁曉琳委員進行詢答翁曉琳委員改書面質詢接下來請賴氏寶委員進行詢答賴氏寶委員接下來請王紅薇委員王紅薇委員改書面詢答"},{"start":12242.158,"end":12244.659,"text":"所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢,詢問結束"},{"start":12274.472,"end":12300.181,"text":"主席你剛剛不是說你不會幹這種事情你就是今天完成詢答嗎?因為議事日程上也是寫詢答"},{"start":12301.9,"end":12302.821,"text":"則期再處理阿"},{"start":12331.161,"end":12332.323,"text":"因為柯總召是建議擇期在"},{"start":12340.475,"end":12358.706,"text":"沒有我跟你講啦齁 我的意思今天的議程上面寫得很清楚但是我會尊重大家的意思那我說不會突襲是指我不會請大家回去之後突然跑過來開會這不是我因為剛剛看到我是很同情你 看到副總是要使個眼色你就沒有啦 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吳處長"},{"start":2103.735,"end":2105.636,"text":"政風處王文信王處長會計處蔡靜滿蔡處長統計資訊處張志強張處長法規會執行秘書陳靜茹陳秘書臺北榮民總醫院陳維銘陳院長臺東榮民總醫院傅雲慶傅副院長"},{"start":2136.052,"end":2138.474,"text":"高雄榮民總醫院陳金順陳院長平東榮民總醫院萬樹仁萬副院長榮民榮眷基金會李世國李秘書長"},{"start":2157.267,"end":2170.612,"text":"我們本日會議邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會馮世寬主任委員報告．退輔會服務照顧及相關救補助精進作為．並備質詢我們現在請馮主任委員上台報告大家早安大家好"},{"start":2185.99,"end":2213.392,"text":"在離任前夕還有機會能夠到大院來報告深感榮幸也不無驚喜首先要對大院委員先進及諸多的委員給我們的指導與支持謹自崇高的敬意與謝誠自離任以來積極走訪基層本會照顧措施大多數由退出役官兵"},{"start":2214.676,"end":2229.764,"text":"及眷屬依實際需求提出申請為達簡正辨明感動服務的政策目標我們簡化多項業務表格強化線上申辦及資訊化的輸出縮短文書驗證及洽公的時間增進行政效能全台19所農民服務處"},{"start":2240.45,"end":2261.963,"text":"一為地區資源整合與服務的平台以單一櫃檯服務模式提供救學、救業、救醫、救養．退出疾負與各項服務的照顧以下就本會各項服務照顧相關補救狀況與情形作為責要的報告如後"},{"start":2264.963,"end":2278.753,"text":"服務照顧及相關補助的現況服務照顧對於長年不居弱勢或高危險因子的榮民疑倦藉由綿密探訪深入關懷"},{"start":2280.254,"end":2302.496,"text":"並依其需求協助申請吉蘭救助、三節慰問、子女救學補助及獎學金、午餐補助、商帳補助、維刑保險及轉介各項社福資源等照顧措施、聯結地方政府、民間社福資源及後備、警消等單位"},{"start":2304.349,"end":2332.599,"text":"建構綿密服務的網路提供多元完善的服務照顧妥善辦理單身亡故農民兵葬及善盡遺產管理職責提供亡故救長農民家屬申請商葬補助善用農民融券基金會的資源提供重大災害救助辦理大學以上親含農民子女獎學金救學補助"},{"start":2333.439,"end":2358.409,"text":"及國外求學精英圓夢計劃等．召會了我們榮民榮眷救學為鼓勵推出役官兵救學辦理推薦考選助學救學補助獎勵及津貼大專院校的補助及就業考試進修的補助以後職退休"},{"start":2360.068,"end":2378.135,"text":"這個除役的官兵的學能提升就業的競爭力結合技能校園進修的管道企業職缺及國家產業人力的發展辦理產學合作提供退除役官兵升學與就業機會"},{"start":2380.899,"end":2388.915,"text":"3、就業方面為促進長期的穩定就業發給促進穩定就業津貼並提供有益創業"},{"start":2390.765,"end":2396.75,"text":"退出役官兵諮詢及創業貸款利息補助．配合產業發展趨勢．結合學校、民間、訓練機構及企業．辦理職業訓練．積極開發優質的企業合作．並連結勞動部各分署辦理之產訓．合作資源推薦退出役官兵參訓．"},{"start":2416.548,"end":2441.507,"text":"在就醫方面為提供完善的醫療照顧本會設有4所榮民總醫院12所分醫院結合16所榮民國育之家精進金字塔三級智慧的照顧提供周全性、連續性、即時性的醫療整合照護各級榮院推展多元照顧導入科技輔助裝備"},{"start":2443.444,"end":2457.126,"text":"如高雄榮總等榮院附設住宿式的長照機構導入智慧照護床墊三千餘床日照中心設置人臉辨識智慧系統"},{"start":2458.683,"end":2480.717,"text":"以致力於促進國退出役官兵眷屬及民眾的健康自民國84年全民健保開辦以來補助無職業農民健保費就醫部分擔負費用免掛告費等健保不給付項目農種養人病房差額"},{"start":2483.139,"end":2491.891,"text":"有職業榮民資本會所屬的機構就依免費掛號自行負擔費用由本會按"},{"start":2494.123,"end":2510.151,"text":"推伍時的軍階以比例補助例如上校級20%、士官及士兵級100%．並透過各容輔處、容家、受理容民申請所需助聽器、藝演．各項輔助、演進及鄉衙補助"},{"start":2514.834,"end":2526.744,"text":"75歲以上榮民納入4所榮總就醫綠色通道服務對象提供優先話號批架及簽床等服務各級榮業軍設置專屬榮民優先服務櫃台提供"},{"start":2534.522,"end":2562.1,"text":"85歲以上高齡農民門診的優先看診及智慧教號的服務在救養方面為安置因戰功致身心障礙老年無醫貧困農民本會設有16所農家以全公費及部分供給制也就是自費的方式分別辦理農民入住截至113年3月底任內"},{"start":2563.414,"end":2591.381,"text":"國家榮家的公費救養榮民已達3,400多人自費安養榮民到2,000多人持續推動榮家家庭化社會化智能化政策讓榮民長輩居住榮家有家的感覺也讓榮家長輩與社區外界有更多的互動連結再透過智能把服務照顧發展得更專業"},{"start":2594.523,"end":2621.962,"text":"對於公費救養農民每月發給救養金給付一萬五千四百多元以維持取等基本的生活配合政府長照二點零開放農家設施門診及復健資源推動社區關懷據點日照中心等服務退出給付方面利用數位化縮短更像退出給付子女教育補助"},{"start":2623.323,"end":2644.868,"text":"移除年金及水電優待申辦等作業的時間周密各項比對查驗的作業嚴防資料外洩在農場優惠方面為感念農民過去對國家的貢獻有付出去等赴本輝農場提供門票免費及住宿優惠"},{"start":2647.352,"end":2672.128,"text":"平日是5.5折,假日是9折,並享有教育班民眾提早10日之優先定房服務。中整本會照顧措施涉及發放相關的教育補助費、獎助學金、軍帖等25項,其對象資格、金額及112年資金成效如附表,請參閱。"},{"start":2675.287,"end":2701.165,"text":"在相關救助精進作為方面服務照顧加強防治深化衛助加強防治頻率主動發掘生活陷入困境的榮民券發於急濫救助金紓困對於東勢東山花蓮地震受災的榮民救助已經有175人次153萬"},{"start":2705.702,"end":2723.209,"text":"三千元的發放另外容輔處會評估具低收入戶中低收中低老條件經濟弱勢的榮民眷及戰功運命的遺族及重要戰役義務參戰的官兵三節合法慰問金"},{"start":2725.095,"end":2744.726,"text":"協助救學照顧學子加強照顧親韓農民家庭及遺孤結合農民榮券基金會發給救學補助與獎學金災難救助、傷障救助本會現行針對亡故救養農民家屬提供傷障補助費4萬元"},{"start":2747.883,"end":2766.662,"text":"這個考量物價的指數等因素上漲經初步評估將會調整至5萬元將對生活貧困、亡故、救養的農民家屬甚有助益是完成政策評估並呈報行政院核定後立即辦理就學"},{"start":2768.241,"end":2784.578,"text":"救助的獎勵金軍人兼顧保護國家的重任再因此以戰訓信念為主普遍缺乏民間專業技能在107年起我們已將學長費的補助提升到最高8萬元"},{"start":2786.119,"end":2813.639,"text":"施立大學學費最高約7萬1千元只要退除役官兵想讀書完全免費幫助無後顧之憂安心上學大專院校進修補助106年起已調整以總金額為上限方式提高至每人申請12次補助總金額為12萬元其中持有中低收入戶證明者補助總金額16萬元"},{"start":2816.243,"end":2818.271,"text":"就業考試的進修補助"},{"start":2820.39,"end":2844.507,"text":"我們原規定最多4次申請緣額1萬元但是106年起提高補助總金額為5萬元113年預定補助700人次就業促進穩定就業的軍貼為因應退出役官兵多元就業形態及需求本歸於執行辦法草案中增加訓後穩定就業軍貼適用的對象職業訓練的補助"},{"start":2850.749,"end":2870.67,"text":"委員規定每年申請一次最高補助4萬元我們自107年起補助總金額提高為8萬元第二類退出役官兵甚至於至12萬元的榮民保證每年可申請兩次在就醫方面輔具的補助定期檢討"},{"start":2872.379,"end":2896.75,"text":"輔具的採購規格﹚滾動式的修正輔具相關的作業規定﹚拓展醫療照顧服務的據點﹚高雄榮總引領管理高雄市立聯合醫院可有效運作醫學中心與區域醫院的轉診服務﹚擴大提供醫學中心優質醫療服務﹚"},{"start":2899.005,"end":2919.668,"text":"第二為拓展服務的據點提供民眾就醫可進性行政院在113年3月26號原則同意臺北勞務中心松德停車場及宿舍用地交由臺北榮總規劃籌建信義醫院區以疏解失拍區的人潮"},{"start":2920.709,"end":2943.153,"text":"第三,臺中農總規劃在臺中市農福出的舊址設立豐原及東區醫療服務健診健康中心以服務臺中市豐原區和東區的民眾。第五,揪養金方面,配合退休公教優推諷的調整本會在113年3月14日"},{"start":2946.291,"end":2954.902,"text":"韓報行政院爭取,行政院在4月2日同意徵調給付4%,並塑制113年1月1日起實施每人每月救養給付由14,000多元調整為15,000多元"},{"start":2965.34,"end":2978.334,"text":"推出役副規劃新增視訊查驗的系統提供指令定期奉津人員女租國外視訊查驗等措施"},{"start":2980.222,"end":3000.176,"text":"是節育為合理保障退出役官兵基本生活本會將依消費者物價指數成長率基本工資軍公教人員待遇及福利社及福利軍貼調整等時機是整體政策環境及國家財力事實"},{"start":3001.83,"end":3017.075,"text":"調整退出役官兵相關的救補助、獎學金及軍貼與扶持需以上報告請各位委員先進不吝指教與支持報告完畢並請遲到好 謝謝好 謝謝主委我們現在補充介紹羅美玲委員黃仁委員"},{"start":3031.158,"end":3031.458,"text":"議事錄確定"},{"start":3044.426,"end":3062.439,"text":"現在開始詢答本會委員8加2分鍾非本會委員6分鍾10點30分發言登記截止如果有臨時提案請於10點30分提出11點左右視詢答情形進行處理現在請羅美玲委員上台詢答謝謝主席有請馮主委請馮主委"},{"start":3080.205,"end":3080.225,"text":"退輔會"},{"start":3098.185,"end":3111.737,"text":"歷年來一直也都在致力於蒐證我們榮民的這個文物甚至是記錄這個榮民的口述的歷史跟這個影像那這些榮民伯伯其實就是歷史戰爭的這個見證人所以這些資料對我國的歷史上來講其實還是很重要的一個記錄那透過這些資料其實也可以讓國人更加了解相關的我國的一些歷史的這個發展"},{"start":3126.349,"end":3139.183,"text":"本席今天要跟各位討論的就是說有關於我國這些榮民文物的這個保存是不是往後可以更加多元的這個利用那我們目前所知道就是說我們退輔會有設立一個榮民文化網"},{"start":3143.607,"end":3143.627,"text":"臺灣﹚英國"},{"start":3161.252,"end":3163.835,"text":"英國有一個帝國戰爭博物館他有一個聲音檔案館他收藏超過6萬小時的專業錄製還有記錄跟保存這些素材透過這些聲音檔案可以讓觀眾更加全面的來了解歷史的歷程我們有提到就是說前陣子我有發現就是說我們退輔會"},{"start":3186.556,"end":3213.366,"text":"要在宜蘭有要規劃新建這個榮民文化藝術館我想這應該已經有招標了那從過去我們發現就是說我們這些文化館大部分都是朝向文物的這個保存那榮民文化藝術館它應該是更加的多元跟活潑在這部分的話主委能夠稍微跟我們"},{"start":3214.747,"end":3216.329,"text":"荣家家史館的差別"},{"start":3226.752,"end":3246.047,"text":"報告委員我想這個文物館我們想把它變成一種集中式的因為現在我們各個榮家因為它長久的歷史都存有一些文物我們希望保留一些讓他們做一個展示之外能夠在榮民之家把它做數位化的"},{"start":3246.647,"end":3246.667,"text":"是﹖"},{"start":3276.195,"end":3299.642,"text":"委員好我是綜合規劃處處長利宜剛那我請簡單的報告我們除了我們自己的文物之外我們也跟一些口述歷史的攝影攝影家或是協會合作我們從農民的角度來做一個口述歷史然後做一個整體的編排那現在已經有跟省村池基金會來做口述歷史那另外我們"},{"start":3300.282,"end":3322.2,"text":"要做一個數位化跟沉浸式的互動式的一個展示的空間這我們也在規劃了也去參訪過很多的博物館跟他們做請教最後我們也跟大部分的眷村來合作眷村學會合作結合在地的一個元素以後會到各地去做參展"},{"start":3328.425,"end":3345.577,"text":"這是我們未來在宜蘭所要興建的榮民文化藝術館未來的這個規劃再來還有一點還有就是國家軍事博物館耗時耗費非常多年那我在想預計未來的兩年也要來"},{"start":3346.818,"end":3349.381,"text":"那聽起來好像目前還是朝向於比較類似文物的展示為主是不是?是不是這樣子?"},{"start":3363.069,"end":3363.209,"text":"國防部委員"},{"start":3394.53,"end":3410.986,"text":"我剛一直聽到的都是文物的展示,2022年的時候我們北榮曾經跟故宮一起來合作,合作什麼呢?金牌人生"},{"start":3412.028,"end":3412.849,"text":"榮總想說要依循2022年跟故宮合作"},{"start":3430.367,"end":3430.387,"text":"請問院長"},{"start":3450.138,"end":3469.524,"text":"謝謝羅委員第一次的和故宮合作那是一個創舉那金牌人生呢取得初步的結果下個月又要到故宮去簽第二次的約會有精進的作為那委員的建議我們可以考慮的那我細節的部分再跟我們四支團隊的同仁來討論"},{"start":3471.184,"end":3494.575,"text":"那台北榮總對文史的保留是不遺餘力過去我們也都把它都存起來讓以後後代的子孫都會知道榮總過去60多年發展的歷史謝謝委員所以因為我知道像榮總說在你們在2013年就已經被康健雜誌其實他對你們的評定是專家最多全方位守護失智病人的這個有這麼高的這個評價"},{"start":3496.756,"end":3522.894,"text":"所以我看到英國利物浦博物館竟然這個祭祀加他推行的非常的這個順利我在想榮總其實已經有在朝這個方面來前進因為我們已經跟故宮有過這個合作了所以我在想是不是說經由這些故宮也好或是說我們這些文物館榮民文物館然後讓這些失意的"},{"start":3523.835,"end":3530.96,"text":"老長輩從文物當中找回他們過往的記憶我都想這是可以來推動所以我剛一直在想說我們有這些榮民之家或是說我剛所提到的國家軍事博物館或是說榮民文化藝術館等等其實都可以打造一個比較多元的運用的途徑不單單只是文物的展示"},{"start":3548.712,"end":3549.532,"text":"謝謝委員保貴的建議,我們會把你的保貴建議帶回去"},{"start":3573.837,"end":3599.244,"text":"OK,好,謝謝那再來,好,那個院長您請回那再來的話我想要請教我們主委的就是說有關於我們退輔會我們轉投資的一個事業的一些績效像我們平常有時會接到就是說哎呀,我們退輔會所投資的一些像這個新興客運也好新興天然氣也好很多民眾都覺得說"},{"start":3600.444,"end":3600.784,"text":"我想請問一下主委"},{"start":3629.5,"end":3631.322,"text":"報告委員我覺得應該要可以有改進的空間"},{"start":3642.645,"end":3657.769,"text":"主委您也覺得有改進的這個空間因為我們既然沒有一個民眾的評價那我們知道說其實有很多我們這些退輔會轉投資的事業我們的這個高階經理人也好或董事長其實都是從這個軍中"},{"start":3659.89,"end":3663.093,"text":"退役的軍官去擔任可是商場跟戰場其實還是不太一樣我有個建議就是說在我們高階經營人或董事長去就任之前是不是要有一個比較適當的銜接的訓練"},{"start":3677.828,"end":3678.028,"text":"主席"},{"start":3705.628,"end":3707.109,"text":"王定宇主席"},{"start":3734.294,"end":3760.535,"text":"主委早我們在這個辦公室的空間也認識快8年了希望將來還有機會一起聊聊一起分享你的人生智慧經驗我現在請教你三個課題第一個今天新聞已經報了中共要辦百年黃埔100團一團30人就3000個我們官校畢業退伍的學長們去廣東"},{"start":3763.152,"end":3767.576,"text":"我們摘要一下陸軍官校的歷史我相信主委比我更熟"},{"start":3769.107,"end":3793.804,"text":"我們國家的陸軍官校在1924年6月16號創建於中國廣東省黃埔區那1927年遷到南京1937年遷到成都1946年改稱中華民國陸軍軍官學校1950年在台灣的鳳山高雄鳳山副校這段歷史維基百科寫的很清楚"},{"start":3794.685,"end":3814.826,"text":"第二個事情是原來在中國黃埔區的軍校其實從解放軍燒殺擄掠之後1949年12月根本就廢校到現在了1949年就在黃埔區就弄一個遺址紀念碑後來50年代放個紀念碑已經廢校到現在"},{"start":3815.64,"end":3817.042,"text":"黃埔軍校同學會1984年6月16日"},{"start":3825.037,"end":3828.319,"text":"我現在先請到第一個問題你覺得中共到底有沒有資格辦黃埔百年"},{"start":3852.137,"end":3872.644,"text":"當然沒有資格,但是他要辦的話是統戰的意圖,我們也阻止不了當然,他在他們的國家辦,但他們要辦這個黃埔百年其實蠻諷刺蠻笑話的,當年就是被他滅掉的嘛我可以直接講,我不相信我們有3000人要到那邊去"},{"start":3873.669,"end":3876.07,"text":"陸軍官校畢業的學長們應不應該去參加中國統戰部轄下的黃埔軍校同學會在廣東所辦的黃埔百年這個活動"},{"start":3896.138,"end":3925.237,"text":"因為新聞是這樣報他想要辦百團啊對但是作為一個退輔會主委你對這些畢業的學長有沒有什麼建議說法我個人絕對不相信會有百團要去而且到達三千人我絕對不相信那對於執意要去的這些人你有沒有什麼勸他們的話當然他們上面寫的是落地這個接待但是我想"},{"start":3927.349,"end":3952.106,"text":"假如他們三千人我們假設三千人去了那你既然那麼喜歡那邊乾脆就不要回來了嘛那你既然又要回來那表示我們這裡當然有他優勢的地方讓他願意留在這邊的地方去那個地方呢毫無意義坦白講在中國的所謂的老校友你上次說的不是死了就投降的"},{"start":3953.476,"end":3954.417,"text":"委員我還有一個想法今天這些人要去"},{"start":3981.516,"end":3981.616,"text":"主委"},{"start":4010.16,"end":4038.829,"text":"社會構成的因素有很多社會組成的看法也很多元但不管怎麼多元看法怎麼不一樣沒有像侵略者卑躬屈膝的道理特別是黃埔這兩個字在中國代表他們的勝利他們的殲滅對我們來講是一個堅毅不拔重新復效了所以我是希望退輔會有些情緒可以去消化掉但有些事情不能做就是不能做我接下來要請教你下一個課題"},{"start":4041.641,"end":4065.23,"text":"這個我們常常在委員會有提到我們退伍軍人的教育補助費那這個教育補助費目前是在中校以下那我們也放了一段時間現在有一個時空背景的改變第一個行政院已經開始補助私立大學學費每學年每年補助到這個三萬五千元"},{"start":4066.03,"end":4090.784,"text":"那公立大學的話每一年補助大概是兩萬元左右也就是說以往行政院沒有這個補助他放在教育部那邊那我們退伍軍人在退輔會這邊的教育補助費呢私立學校的距離就是七萬多我們補助七萬多塊那公立大學的補助呢距離就差兩萬七千二但現在因為行政院的整體支出"},{"start":4091.804,"end":4106.792,"text":"已經補助三萬五千元公立大學補助兩萬元等等所以我們原來在退輔會補助退伍軍人的學費跟預算支出的距離拉近了大概減了一半"},{"start":4108.001,"end":4129.934,"text":"所以實質上我們現在運作的制度是小朋友讀大學爸爸如果有退輔會的這個補助的資格他可以二折一我要嘛就選擇教育部的補助三萬五要不然我就選擇退輔會的補助七萬一千六所以那個差額大概差別在三萬多塊跟以往零跟七萬一千六距離比較遠所以整體我們"},{"start":4130.934,"end":4156.012,"text":"退輔會跟教育部整體行政院在退伍軍人教育補助費這樣的差額事實上是縮短的因為你那邊增加一個新的福利政策那是好事我們希望幫獨立大學的孩子們撐一把讓他負擔輕鬆一點所以本席算了一下如果用行政院整體預算支出的規模來看現在把上校以上的子女教育補助費納入"},{"start":4158.093,"end":4174.499,"text":"實質預算並沒有增加因為那個私立大學跟公立大學在教育部那一塊已經有個金額在那邊處理了我現在是一個退伍的上校還是讀大學我可以選擇教育部那一塊就補助三萬五但是因為現在退輔會沒有嘛否則退輔會是補助七萬一千六百塊嘛"},{"start":4175.379,"end":4191.768,"text":"所以這個距離拉近了預算算起來因為上校以上的退伍軍人佔10%以下的佔90%所以整體行政院的預算支出其實在教育補助費這邊差距是往下降的所以本席是建議"},{"start":4193.789,"end":4194.79,"text":"委員我對這個委員的建議感到非常的感佩"},{"start":4215.134,"end":4221.729,"text":"但是我還有一個想法把這個上校教育補助費取消啊是因為有一個橫頻的一個說法"},{"start":4224.451,"end":4248.147,"text":"那我們為什麼不能夠把軍公教一體來照顧這些學生一起來提升我們退輔會大概只能處理退輔軍人我如果要問你公教的話我就越權了所以你先不要講到公教那一塊公教他們上班的狀況跟軍人還是不一樣我們軍人停留年一到我升不上去就退了公務員不犯法大概可以坐到65歲這不一樣的狀況我是覺得"},{"start":4252.009,"end":4280.507,"text":"原來是要增加預算支出1億多那10%的上校以上但是因為行政院已經增加了教育補助費私立大學給你3萬5公立大學給你2萬1千6所以這個距離我特別強調是距離已經拉近了所以我們實質的支出其實是往下降這時候把上校以上納入的話其實我們在預算的總額上並沒有增加然後對於我們軍事官兵的照顧也比較橫貧這是我的想法"},{"start":4281.087,"end":4307.592,"text":"我們一起來努力這一塊因為這不用修法我們跟人事總處來溝通看看我接下來請教這個主委那因為今天李文忠副主委沒有來嘛我上一次問的時候就帶過而已因為還沒有出去訪問那現在3月底李文忠副主委代表我們台灣的退伍軍人退輔會到歐洲這比較罕見我們以往都跑美國的退伍軍人協會那他這一次到歐洲到底拜訪哪些國家"},{"start":4310.098,"end":4322.771,"text":"他去歐洲去了有三個國家這個國家裡面中間有些是中途人家來邀請的還可以這樣子對我覺得是這個方面是一個突破"},{"start":4323.752,"end":4347.019,"text":"但是委員我想我會請李副主委到您辦公室當面面報也不用啦我只是要了解一下我們在歐洲的突破因為你說三個國家嘛媒體有報導我看到好像英國愛爾蘭有吧還有一個國家是哪裡還有捷克英國愛爾蘭跟捷克那跟當地的退伍軍人交流些什麼項目"},{"start":4348.018,"end":4348.819,"text":"有沒有邀請對方來台灣互訪?"},{"start":4360.392,"end":4380.09,"text":"這個當然是有而且我們希望以後能夠增加一些交流裡面的實質內容那在可見的時間內最後題目時間到了在可見的時間內這一些國家的退伍軍人的會長相關總會長你預計今年會不會來台灣訪問今年的預算沒有但是明年我們已經編列了"},{"start":4381.912,"end":4381.932,"text":"有請馮書偉"},{"start":4411.058,"end":4411.519,"text":"委員長 所有好"},{"start":4421.898,"end":4444.249,"text":"有關於偏鄉醫療的服務這個是一個目前來講對整個我們在不管是台11線、台9線或者是在這個西部走廊的比較偏鄉的現在最需要的就是偏鄉醫療要提升那我看了你們的數據裡面來講的話就退輔會在"},{"start":4447.23,"end":4464.902,"text":"各農院在偏鄉醫療部分的提供哪一些協助從111年12月北農新竹分院啟動偏鄉醫療教學之後分別辦理涉及偏鄉的醫療食物課程"},{"start":4465.482,"end":4483.259,"text":"和重點特別培育公費偏鄉醫療服務請問諸位兩年的成效如何有多少醫生因此計劃加入偏鄉醫療的服務是這個我想請專業的那個我們的張科長來張組長來給大家報告"},{"start":4486.186,"end":4486.946,"text":"我們常常講一個對重視偏鄉醫療的重點"},{"start":4515.822,"end":4519.816,"text":"就是因為我們常常急救的時候找不到醫院"},{"start":4520.771,"end":4545.765,"text":"所以現在為什麼會有這樣的一個希望能夠提升偏鄉醫療的服務的原因就是要重視偏鄉而且我們要對整個平衡的醫療的團隊跟他的這個所謂的服務團隊應該要因地制宜而且也要重視偏鄉的"},{"start":4547.446,"end":4551.592,"text":"所以我看了一下就是根據統計在111年全國國人的平均壽命為79.34%歲但原住民的平均壽命為73.65%歲"},{"start":4564.329,"end":4591.663,"text":"比全國低於6年以上主要的原因就是偏鄉醫療的不足這是全國醫療系統的問題不是只有單純龍苑的問題龍苑雖然有疫診但遠距離等協助因為龍苑體系文明全球本是希望能夠提供更多的資源在於照顧偏鄉"},{"start":4594.295,"end":4620.337,"text":"我想聽聽北農的院長的想法謝謝黃委員照顧偏鄉是我們一定要做的事情因為臺北市的平均壽命比臺東縣多了7.5歲那所以表示我們應該投注更多的醫療的資源來幫助他們臺北農總現在我們在臺東有分院玉里有分院鳳林有分院花東三院那因為"},{"start":4621.118,"end":4622.159,"text":"謝謝我們北農院長我想退輔會主委"},{"start":4638.254,"end":4664.307,"text":"你過去擔任過重要的鑰匙總司令到國防部長我相信你過去所帶領的非常多的原住民不管是在50年代60年代70年代幾乎我們很多各縣市的原住民都加入國軍的體系甚至這個"},{"start":4667.429,"end":4683.801,"text":"這個在軍中裡面服役就這個所謂的長期的服役但是我們今天要問的是我們國軍的志願役中原住民佔比例的多寡"},{"start":4684.562,"end":4712.896,"text":"我國在原住民的人口佔比例總數約為2.5%但原住民在國進志願役人數卻佔高達7%尤其是今時的特種部隊中族人比例甚至超過半數但退輔會在112年輔導原住民退除役官兵穩定就業人數比例只有7%原因是什麼"},{"start":4713.656,"end":4729.884,"text":"另外我在這個特別在從退輔會的資料看出第二類退除役官兵援助人數大約佔同類退除役官兵的10%但一般的農民援助人數僅佔農民的3%原因是什麼你能不能詳細的說明一下"},{"start":4738.206,"end":4755.499,"text":"委員早安我是事業管理處處長楊長正跟您報告福壽山農場使用原住民比例偏低的原因其實我們所有高山農場包含平地年農場我們在招工的時候都是以農民跟原住民為最優先"},{"start":4756.64,"end":4777.352,"text":"這個是所有農場都是這個樣子的原住民跟農民我們是優先錄用但是福州山農場他比較特殊的原因是當地我們的原住民同胞都種植了蔬菜跟果樹所以他的就業需求比較低如果說他有意願到我們農場上班我們非常非常歡迎"},{"start":4778.032,"end":4801.006,"text":"因為不是只有在這個文藝農場或是在和平區的那個地方我想你們退伍會都遍佈在整個全省全國我相信我們在這個很多的原住民的退役之後他的年紀還是算屬於年輕那當然我們要為他的退伍之後的就業"},{"start":4802.606,"end":4813.891,"text":"這是一個重點的輔導那當然你說武林農場那邊你說根據你們的這些提供裡面武林農場對原住民的員工比例佔25.36%福壽山農場的原住民比例佔18%"},{"start":4822.523,"end":4825.706,"text":"臺東農場的員工比例佔24%我相信這個都還有提升的空間只是我們希望"},{"start":4839.58,"end":4863.309,"text":"我們退輔會要有耐心要有愛心要有照顧對我們原住民金人退伍之後的就業能夠加以輔導而且能夠提升他們的就業的意願還有各方的條件這樣才是真正的你們推行的這樣的一個"},{"start":4864.029,"end":4870.176,"text":"照顧退伍軍人的一個待遇跟態度你來回答一下"},{"start":4873.7,"end":4878.521,"text":"委員好 我是就學就業處處長池玉蘭跟委員報告您剛剛所提到的申請促進穩定就業津貼原住民是佔7%這是有出入的因為您的7%是這樣子我們在112年申請促進穩定就業津貼是749人可是你是用110好你把這個資料給我好嗎你把這個資料給我其實我們實際有也許可能有誤但是我們希望這個吐血我今天要表達是什麼"},{"start":4902.645,"end":4902.665,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":4933.692,"end":4934.573,"text":"有請馮主委"},{"start":4960.319,"end":4974.752,"text":"委員早安主委您早在主委在這個任期內成功卸任之前能有機會向您請意或是提出一些看法我個人感覺到非常的榮幸拜讀了"},{"start":4986.601,"end":5004.482,"text":"退輔會做的專業報告以及您今天早上提報的分析就有關退輔會服務照顧及相關救助輔助的經濟作為本席以邏輯框架跟方法論來探討您所提出的內容第一個"},{"start":5006.207,"end":5026.635,"text":"顯示了目標明確第二方法有效第三個我們要做出一個具體建議在目標明確裡面我們可以看出確實發揮安心安家精實部隊戰力與國防部結合人才招募這個做法上面是很落實的同時在穩定社會基石"},{"start":5027.884,"end":5040.651,"text":"後備能量與社會融合國家資源的整合上這個也是非常具體的那麼在方法上來講就學因為剛才已經提到了鼓勵退除役官兵自我進修"},{"start":5042.069,"end":5060.104,"text":"補助短期進修、深造教育與學程留用、結合救幼、輔導社會但是在上週我們質詢國防部就關法律師的時候中間就產生了一項跟你這邊有所關聯的那麼上一次是提報就是有關國軍官兵處罰條例裡面有一項降階"},{"start":5066.889,"end":5094.337,"text":"那麼比方來講一個服役4年的上校因為其他的事故遭受處分降監而不是刑事訴訟的那麼他從上校變到中校退他中校退後他所享有的子女的教育輔助反而比原本上校要享受的待遇好那在對處分的條例上我是覺得在國防部那邊要做探討因為剛剛你已經提到了我們現在是以中校做一個"},{"start":5095.157,"end":5095.477,"text":"另外就是就業部分"},{"start":5121.245,"end":5141.27,"text":"輔導榮民就業與提供榮眷救養的諮詢服務採雙軌並行制共創雙贏的大局這個我們非常肯定那剛才救養部分也聽到了善用愛心與耐心協助榮民榮眷生活檢討針對救養金部分剛才您提到了從14000提升到了15000"},{"start":5142.85,"end":5142.97,"text":"主席"},{"start":5159.538,"end":5185.897,"text":"建議分兩個部分第一個退輔會相關的資產依據國有財產法定定這個管理那麼加強相關法律機制我這是一個建議啦預防私有企業希望以OBT的這個方式啊協助可能會產生一種轉移的資產這個我們要重視這個法律的合作那最後的建議加強與國防部合作"},{"start":5187.177,"end":5213.257,"text":"協助新進人員瞭解與退輔會的互動關聯以法規為基礎協同國防部為戰傷的傷殘的當事人與家齡盡力照顧我們也特別感謝今天各個榮民醫院的院長提出的照顧我們這點確認對維護國軍官兵士氣與人才招募能夠發揮關鍵的力量"},{"start":5220.483,"end":5237.314,"text":"最後一個小結就是因為馬上退輔會要面臨到70周年了我們特別感受很深回顧歷史退輔會與時俱進完備全民國防制度在國家重大建設穩定社會醫療尤其是長照資源上貢獻盛聚"},{"start":5238.294,"end":5261.54,"text":"更在您主委的任內強化榮民、榮眷在就業、就學、就養的照顧關懷機制．如今退輔會成為我們國家安全策略性的關鍵資產．也就是社會的韌性重要的一環．我們期盼未來能夠秉持持續精進與創新的精神．成就任重道遠的傳承使命．謝謝主委的指導謝謝委員的指導"},{"start":5269.442,"end":5291.759,"text":"謝謝,謝謝陳委員我們接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢謝謝主席,主席有請我們退輔委主委請馮主委"},{"start":5298.547,"end":5315.161,"text":"委員早安主委您好雖然說在這個空間裡面跟您質詢的次數不多但是從您過去一集來站在這個退輔會主委的這個工作上面可以說是非常的協助我們退休的這些退役官軍官兵們"},{"start":5316.122,"end":5332.319,"text":"曾經他們的權益包括剛剛你也特別講到了我們在有關於補助、獎勵、津貼等等其實都是逐年在網上攀升希望給為國家奉獻他們最重要的歲月的這些官軍弟兄們能夠在退休的時候無後顧之憂"},{"start":5333.96,"end":5360.328,"text":"但是呢本席最近看了幾個新聞因為我們都知道兩岸之間的關係就是可以說是在中國的主導之下你看他們這個一方面國民黨的委員到中國去但是他們的共軍擾台持續就是過去我們講的一手拉一手壓其實從來沒有停止過那麼我們知道很多其實退伍的軍人包括我自己的弟弟"},{"start":5360.928,"end":5375.685,"text":"也是退役的這個將領那麼當然他們對於這個國軍在現役人所受的壓力他們其實是最能感同身受每次看到這種新聞他自己都覺得非常的生氣喔但是我要講的是但是在這麼多的這個退役的這些國軍弟兄當中"},{"start":5379.429,"end":5404.698,"text":"還是有一些人其實過去他可能把他的歲月放在這個軍中可是退下來之後包括像夏迎周就講說這個共軍是有權在我們的空域上面做盤旋的當時這個退輔會我們這邊也說了就是淪為這個統戰的樣板那麼最近呢也有這個退將栗正傑啊他講到說為什麼要找這個顧立雄來當國防部長原因是因為"},{"start":5406.138,"end":5424.142,"text":"沒有人想來有料的不想來因為沒有人要當這個敗將之君啊這個感覺上就是為什麼這個退休了之後反而常常在後頭唱衰中國呢我其實比較想要問的是主委你怎麼來看這樣的說法難道不會傷害大家之間的情感不是幫著中國在所謂長他人志氣滅自我威風嗎"},{"start":5436.271,"end":5456.449,"text":"報告委員,在我看這種新聞啊,就是一日亡,你不看啊,第二天就沒有了,假如你一直炒,反而把它炒出來,這些人我們都不認識,一炒出來之後,哦,還有一個將領叫什麼名字,我是建議所有這些新聞大家不要看,"},{"start":5457.588,"end":5484.976,"text":"但是他會上媒體去接受訪問啊尤其是呢掛著一個退將兩個字就感覺上好像他在軍中過去曾經有非常重要的職務我想問一下主委喔像這樣的退休的將領喔將官喔他們大概薪資就是退休奉大概是多少有沒有一個範圍他們多少錢我是不知道但是依據他們的這個薪奉應該可以養年"},{"start":5486.814,"end":5512.026,"text":"這個絕對沒有問題的你就問到我想講的重點了就是接受媒體訪問或是上節目基本上他講出這樣的話來的時候所給他的這些退休興奉是足以養廉但是他卻反過來要倒打我們國軍一把甚至於就是長他人志氣滅自我威風的時候我覺得你讓這些現役的軍官情何以堪"},{"start":5512.566,"end":5539.476,"text":"我想您應該雖然說您現在在這個退輔會但您應該知道一個新任新進的國軍弟兄他大概起薪是多少吧肯定是這些退降的薪水來的少是嗎對那如果說現役的這些國軍弟兄們拿的是沒有這些退降多但是他們卻一直不斷的在長他人志氣滅自我威風的時候這個問題主委你有沒有想過該怎麼處理"},{"start":5541.837,"end":5557.93,"text":"報告委員,這個事情因為他講的話跟實際還是有很多的差別這個沒有人會去聽這一些把它當成一個好像耳提念命聽了就算了甚至像我這些新聞我從來都不看"},{"start":5559.172,"end":5561.394,"text":"就是把他當成網紅來看嗎?但是問題是他還是有拿著我們的退休縫喔"},{"start":5586.463,"end":5613.02,"text":"當然我不會說講這些就對他的退休奉做任何的處分但是我認為在退輔會的部分如果主委是這樣的想法的時候那麼也要讓其他的更多不論是縣議或是退伍的國軍弟兄了解真實的情況並不是這樣這個任務可能當然接下來要交給下一任的退輔會主委但是至少我相信在這個質詢台上主委對你的立場是做了一個明確的表達"},{"start":5613.72,"end":5636.815,"text":"另外一個其實當然我想我們退輔會有非常多的轉投資事業這些事業大概一共加起來有多少個?主委您知道嗎?還是請我們主管來回答我是事業管理處處長楊長正我們主要的轉投資事業有23家另外還有6家是因為持股比例非常非常的低"},{"start":5637.688,"end":5652.834,"text":"好那麼言下之意就是說持股比例在一定的這個比例之下包括董事長或者是總經理就會由我們退輔會來做推薦是嗎是好那麼他們到底適不適任剛剛前面羅美玲委員特別提到了"},{"start":5653.514,"end":5658.438,"text":"畢竟呢過去很長的一段時間他們都在軍旅報效國家對於事業體的經營對他們的人生來講這是開啟他的第二人生所以羅美琳委員建議是要讓他們來上一些經營管理的進修課程因為畢竟這些都是轉投資事業"},{"start":5671.286,"end":5699.183,"text":"但是其實我比較在乎的是有關於考評標準的部分我想問這個諸位您知道像這個績效表是達到80分才可以留任就是剛剛我們所講的這些所謂會派的這些總經理或者是董事長那您知道達到80分困難嗎?聽起來好像很困難但是看這張考核表基本分是70分言下之意就是80分能夠留任他再多爭取10分就好了"},{"start":5699.423,"end":5701.386,"text":"所以如果就主委來看你覺得困不困難我這樣子報告好嗎我去台中的新中這個瓦斯公司我們就開年會"},{"start":5712.435,"end":5735.97,"text":"他們對於我們的總經理副總經理戰不絕口因為我們有給他做職前訓練還有是從我們會內推薦出去的也是在我們會內當過處長副主委推薦出去的所以他們覺得國軍的將領非常的優秀那麼至於70分80分他們這個達到"},{"start":5738.7,"end":5745.798,"text":"這個董事長批的時候都不只80分都是89分我都看了他們這個提報單嘛我覺得應該沒有問題"},{"start":5748.06,"end":5761.302,"text":"基本上我相信呢這個主委在會內當中所派出去的這些董總都是充滿了信心的但是呢我只是做一個提醒跟提示我也沒有說這個董總們做得不好只是我們在做這個考核標準的時候我覺得看出來的時候還是要以招公信不然呢我們每次派的時候就容易被人家說這個肥貓啦"},{"start":5775.325,"end":5782.594,"text":"自肥啦或者是說呢這個任用所謂的自己人啦我們來看一下為什麼會這樣講是因為一個這個事業體最重要講的就是經營績效那麼剛剛我講了基本分是70分要多拿這10分呢來我們來看一下多拿這10分當中有"},{"start":5795.749,"end":5799.651,"text":"政策執行就可以加8分那麼裡頭是什麼呢重大議案要先匯報給退輔會那要及時匯報公司各項狀況配合本會要求還有協調董監事改選這等等可以拿8分底下呢跟公民股互動可以加2分那怎麼樣呢就是跟民股啊公股來做互動就可以加2分再來是遵循法規可以加3分"},{"start":5824.505,"end":5840.335,"text":"我們都知道所有的法規都是退輔會來訂定的如果不遵循的話這個已經是違法不是要加分啦是要大扣分了不是嗎我的言下之意是最重要的經營績效包括盈餘的達成或是盈餘達成率其實只有12分我希望在這個配比分數上面不要讓別人覺得我就是在做樣板文章或者是我其實就是在敷衍"},{"start":5853.303,"end":5863.374,"text":"我借鏡一下財政部在派任公營事業機構的經理人或是董監的時候的一個管理要點他最重要重視的是什麼包括年營業額、每股營餘、股東權利跟資產報酬等等"},{"start":5870.629,"end":5897.99,"text":"我會提出這個部分其實只是希望說在評分標準上面不要讓大家覺得說反正我派了那麼我就是讓他可以做到他想做或做完或連線到為止畢竟身為一個所謂的經理人不論是董事長或是總經理因為他是一個投資事業經營標準還是最重要的那麼不知道主委你怎麼看"},{"start":5898.715,"end":5920.743,"text":"我非常謝謝委員給我們的建議我想我們下去會去研究把它做一個良性的改進是我相信這樣子可以讓我們退輔會轉投資的這些事業體能夠有更好的表現那麼未來也可以避免被人家拿出來對於董總的派任做文章好嗎好的謝謝委員的指導好謝謝最後主委您辛苦了謝謝你"},{"start":5929.073,"end":5932.177,"text":"我們下面請沈博洋委員來質詢謝謝主席 有請主委"},{"start":5953.559,"end":5976.405,"text":"主委早安主委早好 那個時間因素我今天就迅速謝謝毛委員剛剛臨時跟我調換順序那第一個就是我想問一下就是跟這一個容家床位有關的因為這一個目前我們看到這一個16個容家那這個他想在新聞裡面有講到尤其是彰化容家現在已經出現滿床的一個現象"},{"start":5977.225,"end":5977.785,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":6006.733,"end":6008.054,"text":"我為什麼這樣問 最主要也是因為之前他就說這個互併比"},{"start":6026.972,"end":6045.474,"text":"雖然我們現在是希望能夠像剛剛講的讓一般的也可以來做使用但因為這個互併筆在高雄台北跟台中榮總之類這個互併筆看起來好像還是被認為說這個互併筆有點不太合乎常理那不知道這一個方面有沒有可能有一些目前改善的方向"},{"start":6047.37,"end":6071.344,"text":"因為這畢竟已經一陣子了嘛所以我們想要知道現在的報告委員我是九一保健處處長詹仁義有關於護病比我們就是配合國家的政策那因為人力的關係確實是有困難那現在目前我們是三班的護病比全日都已經有符合標準但是有關於尤其是夜班現在也是說積極在招募人員在努力當中都配合國家的政策"},{"start":6072.224,"end":6094.916,"text":"希望就是說這邊我寫的就是希望退輔會能夠積極幫忙因為畢竟說真的現在大家這個不管是我們之前在國防部的時候現在發現也有很多的一些軍官他們壓力也是過大業務過度繁重那一樣的在這個醫院也會有一模一樣的問題如果退輔會能夠幫他們做一些協助的話希望是能夠幫他們改善一下不然的話以工作時長來講說真的可能會有壓力過大的問題"},{"start":6096.216,"end":6121.938,"text":"那接下來我想問一下這上次我追問的就是質押探索的部分那我不問滿我先往下就是因為之前有提到這個自辦訓練啊委外訓練啊等等的一個狀況那上次因為我有先直接有問你們會面以後在辦公室裡面有問就是關於這個質押探索這個部分因為我看到他有15個場次450人我想先問一下質押探索他是一定要參加的還是是說就是他自願參加"},{"start":6123.809,"end":6127.812,"text":"委員好,我是救學建設處處長池英倫,跟您報告,職災探索營我們是由軍方這邊來報名,他篩選相關的人員以後,然後提供給本會來做三天兩夜的職災探索營"},{"start":6139.401,"end":6156.18,"text":"因為我個人認為因為我之前也有問過會內就是我覺得只要探索員的幫助應該會蠻大的很大那為什麼會這樣子講呢是因為他越了解這個市場他也越早能夠做準備因為我們很多時候是譬如說在軍中裡面他有各式各樣的技能那當然現在技能到底能不能夠先接社會這個我待會再說"},{"start":6157.321,"end":6180.631,"text":"但是現在就是說他即使有這個技能他不知道應用在哪裡所以不知道有沒有可能讓我知道質押探索可能這樣聽起來要花費的預算應該也會是蠻多的但是顯然質押探索贏的如果他是幫助比較大的是不是可能有一些不管是問卷等等之類的讓譬如說我們知道他的效能有多高那這方面如果能夠去爭取更多的預算的話我覺得反而是重要的"},{"start":6181.351,"end":6210.871,"text":"是希望說在接下來因為我們下個會期要進入預算會期的就這一個方面我覺得質押探索應該是一個重點是不是可以去討論它的成效如何是那另外一個就是這邊我寫到的就是因為在這一個我看到這個重返職場這一個部分澳洲的部分它有強制參加是三天那美國不是強制參加它的時程比較長那但是現在問題就是說因為我看美國的數據他說它有80%他們在軍中學的可以直接做銜接"},{"start":6211.996,"end":6213.85,"text":"我們是不是也能夠朝這個目標前進?"},{"start":6214.659,"end":6218.502,"text":"是謝謝委員好簡單的來講我們現在就是為什麼只有三天那最主要我們要配合國防部因為國防部他還是以戰訓本務為主所以我們目前只能夠三天那我現在已經從300人一年300人增加到450人好那我們會持續再去跟國防部來協商那當然最重要我們的職埃的一個重返職場上面的一個成效呢我們不斷的一樣我們是站在"},{"start":6242.602,"end":6247.026,"text":"官兵的一個需求其實我們的目標希望他在軍中所學能夠就是順利運用到退後的職場所以在過去一段時間我們也跟國防部在希望能夠盤點他在軍中的職能的發展能夠跟民間職場能夠對接讓他在軍中的一個所學順利再回到職場上面人力資源再繼續發揮"},{"start":6267.341,"end":6272.144,"text":"目前其實當然國防部他有一些困難還是以戰訓本務的問題還有一些預算的問題那我們其實都有不斷在跟他們協商希望我們至少現在還沒有做這個軍職職能的對接民間職場的一個對接之前"},{"start":6285.05,"end":6285.792,"text":"我們現在已經在持續的努力當中"},{"start":6300.714,"end":6326.733,"text":"好 那就希望是跟國防部多談因為畢竟這個是跟國防部要互相協作的那我們在跟國防部溝通的時候也是因為國防部現在有時候有些官兵他們的業務量也實在太大了他能夠把這個拿掉然後做一些更適性的一些發展我相信這個陳永康委員他也有一整套的計畫就是說我們要怎麼能夠讓他訓練到真的有用的東西然後以及這些東西能不能夠讓他協助跟民間銜接那國防部那一方面在改的時候希望退輔會也是可以多跟他們討論"},{"start":6328.354,"end":6350.388,"text":"為什麼我會提到這一點也是因為上次我們有提到這個退休的軍官他們常常會被中國接觸然後接觸了之後又再接觸現役的軍人那這個部分他成為中間人的時候其實會有很多的問題那時候我們在討論修法的時候也是因為這個修法不只是要動到退輔會相關的他其實最主要也是要動到現在的官兵"},{"start":6351.088,"end":6373.736,"text":"所以我們在剛好是上個禮拜還是上上禮拜的時候國防部也有來跟我們討論這樣的一個法案就是說呢如果這個東西真的要修比如說他今天違反反滲透法或者承認相關的法令他今天這個退休奉可能是會遭受到限制以外更重要的事情是他其實應該一體的讓現役軍人也能夠用所以這方面的草案呢我們是兩個都送出去了"},{"start":6374.016,"end":6399.55,"text":"我們不是只有針對退休的我們是整體的現役的我們也送出相關的草案然後退休的我們也送出相關的草案讓他可以一體適用所以呢但是因為像在討論這些法案的同時說真的蠻需要兩邊互相協調的所以呢希望說在之後呢我們在應該還會再動一些相關的法令但可能已經跟懲罰無關反而是跟就業等等有關的他需要兩邊的協調嗎那希望我們在座的時候呢我們不只是跟退輔會溝通"},{"start":6400.47,"end":6411.233,"text":"國防部在同時間也可以一起來那這樣的話呢我們在討論相關要怎麼去做體制上的跟制度上的改變的時候一定會變得比較容易齁那也在這邊跟主委報告一下好的謝謝那這個喔這個我們不好意思講掉了這樣應該OK齁所以呢"},{"start":6416.215,"end":6439.233,"text":"那就先這個樣子喔這是我們提出的跟國安法相關的修正那退輔的條例那邊的我們也已經送出來了那但是畢竟只是送出去而已之後可能還要進入到這邊要逐條啊等等之類的那希望就是你們對於這些法條有什麼意見的話能夠提早做準備然後我們就可以在逐條的時候呢再來看到底要做什麼一些細部的微調謝謝喔好謝謝主席 謝謝"},{"start":6447.932,"end":6448.512,"text":"馬文君委員馮主委"},{"start":6470.216,"end":6485.363,"text":"主委好主委其實因為這一次這一屆很多新的委員不過老的就只剩下剛剛王定宇委員跟我跟本席所以其實跟主委也有一段時間"},{"start":6486.623,"end":6508.404,"text":"在這裡還有在很多業務上面其實都有互相的關心就在卸任在籍之前本期還是對您擔任主委的期間所帶領退輔會在各項工作上面的表現其實是深表肯定"},{"start":6509.125,"end":6520.86,"text":"那也感謝你為廣大的榮民的付出尤其你是少數在蔡政府裡面敢勇敢發言或者敢說出自己想法的一個官員一個敢說實話的主官這是我比較感佩的謝謝"},{"start":6528.269,"end":6545.161,"text":"不過在即將卸任的主委您的感覺上面我想要請教一下還有沒有你覺得還沒有做好或者可能還沒有來得及完成的大概有什麼樣的工作嗎我還是以榮民的照顧我為最基本我覺得現在你看科技的發達"},{"start":6555.046,"end":6555.667,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":6566.994,"end":6590.129,"text":"所謂的醫療的科技公司提供許多的裝備來做一種實驗的場所我希望將來能夠給我們的老農民更多這方面的照顧減少照顧人力的負擔另外增加他們的安全這是我最想做的也覺得還沒有完成的"},{"start":6591.894,"end":6609.402,"text":"那這個部分我相信後續還有要即將接任的主委如果您特別再跟他交接一下您再交代一下我相信其實只要是對的事情大家都願意再把它持續的做好或者給予更多的照顧可是另外還有一個就是剛剛有提到的對於上校子女教育的補助的部分"},{"start":6616.986,"end":6621.867,"text":"因為其實就整個上校其實只佔10%那你看這一次教育部一說要補助一些教育經費的時候錢馬上就有了可是對於我們這個長期以來在軍中服役這麼為國家付出的我們卻對他斤斤計較其實剛剛也提到我們不能為了預算好像多"},{"start":6641.292,"end":6666.978,"text":"要支出一點結果就把這個上校的部分就把它砍掉了所以就這個部分主委你有什麼樣的看法我們來據理力爭好不好因為就上校如果到上校他子女還在就學其實是年紀比較大一點其實才結婚才成家或者才有小孩其實對他的來包括我們現在的年金改革以後其實對他們也是造成了一些有一些損害"},{"start":6669.358,"end":6669.778,"text":"謝謝委員提出這個問題這問題在我講這個事情之前是我的痛"},{"start":6694.918,"end":6721.163,"text":"為什麼一個上校負責國家演訓中間最重要的指揮職退休以後子女沒有受到國家的照顧後來我跟人事總處我們的人也下去會談很多次發現他們並不是非常的反軍但是我在想都是孩子嘛都是國家未來的主人翁嘛"},{"start":6722.125,"end":6744.56,"text":"我乾脆通通都有不要分階級我想這樣子比較橫貧真正的橫貧好那我們就來努力這一塊好不好其實主委在你剛剛其實包括王定宇委員有提到了其實大家都發現到這是非常不公平的當你政府千億千億的這樣一直在編預算不斷不斷的給很多很多"},{"start":6747.142,"end":6747.322,"text":"是的,謝謝委員"},{"start":6767.512,"end":6788.101,"text":"接下來就是我們還要請教的是本席辦公室有查詢退輔會在提供容家編制的容家人員編制的資料發現容家在藥事跟護理人員的編制上面其實還有很多的護士跟藥劑生對不對"},{"start":6790.427,"end":6798.859,"text":"那護士跟護理師還有藥劑生跟藥師其實他們在我們農家裡面他們有什麼樣的差異要不要簡單說明一下"},{"start":6803.746,"end":6829.867,"text":"是巴馬委員我是那個人事處處長沒關係簡單說明那因為那個藥師跟藥劑師是先經過那個資格考我知道他們是考試的啦我說他們在農家裡面有什麼樣的差別比如說薪資比如說工作他們的差別在哪裡那當然就有差別因為基本上差別在哪裡"},{"start":6835.291,"end":6842.817,"text":"因為他的職務劣等會比較高那是他領比較多錢以你們榮家現在裡面我想請教最近考試院舉辦的國考裡面護士國考在101年就停辦了也就是說在10年前就停辦了沒有護士這樣子的證照了"},{"start":6855.388,"end":6876.709,"text":"藥劑生的國考在82年就停辦了是在30年前就已經停辦了可是你的編制裡面還有這麼多藥劑生跟護士結果你任用進來以後他拿的是藥師的資格他拿的是護理師的資格可是他領的薪水是藥劑生跟護士的這樣的薪水"},{"start":6877.858,"end":6884.062,"text":"他的差別在這裡他做的工作一樣他就是薪水領得比人家低而已所以這是編制的不合理你今天如果你用的工作都是一樣像一樣是退輔會的系統在醫院裡面他還有藥劑生還有護士的編制因為有些人那時候拿的可能現在年紀比較大了可是他那時候考試的資格是護士跟藥劑生所以他持續在那個工作崗位的時候他拿的是這樣的證照"},{"start":6908.258,"end":6919.941,"text":"所以還有這樣的編制可是在有一些他已經拿了藥師或者護理師的執照的時候他領的薪水是藥師跟護理師的薪水只有我們農家還是給人家藥劑生跟護士的薪資"},{"start":6926.252,"end":6927.473,"text":"謝謝您指示出來這一個重點我們馬上回去檢討而且一定會把它修正"},{"start":6952.153,"end":6953.534,"text":"委員我又把它列入交辦事項"},{"start":6979.968,"end":6983.029,"text":"謝謝主委這就是我們欣賞你的地方因為在有些該改進或者該為同仁或者該為相關的一些爭取福利的時候我覺得您是比較可以從善如流的那這個部分我們希望趕快就給我們一些進度的一個結論還有報告"},{"start":7004.735,"end":7005.216,"text":"接下來還有一個就是我們在榮民他的就醫的部分"},{"start":7015.936,"end":7038.765,"text":"主委您看我們過去其實退輔會對於榮民除了有第一類跟第二類的區分以外在就醫的部分還有分為有職業跟沒有職業的一些相關的健保費的補助沒有職業的還有沒有職業的榮民跟宜眷家戶代表他是屬於第六類那是由退輔會會有補助嗎"},{"start":7045.807,"end":7045.988,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":7070.035,"end":7097.028,"text":"108年蔡總統指示核定警察、消防、海巡還有空勤人員他的醫療照護方案的這個措施裡面你看看他的部分負擔是全額補助不管國防部退輔會、部立醫院或是相關的指定醫院所有的醫院他全部都是全額補助對於我們警察、消防、海巡、空勤人員都是全額補助的"},{"start":7097.864,"end":7102.327,"text":"可是這個在我們自己的榮民裡面反而沒有受到這樣的照顧而且他還有分有職業的還要自己負擔我們不是一直都鼓勵說榮民他退退伍以後應該要去應該要還要繼續就職嗎這是我們照顧他的一個本質而且在我們現在尤其所有的軍人都非常的辛苦"},{"start":7123.359,"end":7124.861,"text":"報告委員,我們馬上協調國防部,該我們做的部分馬上修訂"},{"start":7145,"end":7145.24,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7164.665,"end":7164.985,"text":"委員會主任委員會主席"},{"start":7191.613,"end":7191.873,"text":"謝謝馬委員謝謝主委"},{"start":7226.998,"end":7227.338,"text":"陳冠廷委員"},{"start":7256.584,"end":7278.065,"text":"委員早安總委早安所以我看我們的這個主要的很多人都說我們退輔會相關的事業那都是以新自備的為主那新自備為主的話包含這個天然氣啊瓦斯啊等等那以前大概是比較多人說是比較偏向特許的產業那我今天想要請教一下說退伍軍人"},{"start":7278.806,"end":7289.699,"text":"我們以前都說老農民那現在其實青壯農民更多至少在我們的服務處在家業的服務處基本上45%是農民那都是在30幾歲左右到40多歲的"},{"start":7291.394,"end":7315.121,"text":"那這些退役下來的這些軍官士官那他們在去尋找工作的時候我想他們應該是很少有機會能夠進入我們剛才提到的新自備的這些公司那其實有多項媒體都有報導新自備不管是水泥啊天然氣啊石油等等這些公司都是以降官作為比較高比例的部份我這樣的理解是正確的嗎正確"},{"start":7316.491,"end":7340.076,"text":"我們現在也是這麼做的那最後我的意思是說我想請教那過去不管是陸海空這些很優秀的軍人那特別是有曾經出過國那留學過回國然後完成他們在服役的期間他們離開之後大概有多少比例就您所了解有沒有進入國防產業不管是創新產業或者是新創產業跟國防相關的這樣的比例不知道有沒有"},{"start":7341.329,"end":7364.763,"text":"這樣的比例在我們的這個中科院以及漢翔都有的但是假如說您運用美軍的資料我們這個就比他們差多了他是軍工工業跟國防跟國家政策相結合的我們不是一樣今天漢翔是一個老百姓的公司"},{"start":7365.939,"end":7381.571,"text":"今天我們要請他做一件維修研發的事情都要經過中科院國防部三方面來會合因此要用軍中剛退伍的他的專長等等的都有重新訓練的必要"},{"start":7383.201,"end":7399.73,"text":"謝謝主委所以我在講這件事情的原因是因為我想我們知道最近不管是在多個國外媒體都有提到還有一些期刊雜誌包括politico都有在談到說希望說我們未來能夠有更多的軍事資產在台灣生產那這些生產的過程當然"},{"start":7401.211,"end":7426.626,"text":"國防部主導也好可是有些並不是只有武器喔那包含這些新創創新的這些重要的零組件也好或者是一些系統軍民共用的系統也好那我會覺得比較可惜就是說其實有很多優秀的你們特別是海軍也是訓練很多人出國那在這幾個月那我們正式進入國防外交委員會那我也開始跟這一些"},{"start":7427.566,"end":7442.381,"text":"退役的軍官特別是在40到60歲之間的在討論那他們有提到一個觀點他們是說希望說假設哪一天我們退輔會我們或者說我們國軍退下來的這些士官軍官"},{"start":7443.081,"end":7458.259,"text":"他們在民間的企業不需要由退輔會主導進去這些新自備的而是能夠進入一般的民間產業不管是在新科技、電腦、創新那這樣子的話我們的退輔的工程就能夠說是一個非常成功的一個走法不知道主委你對這樣子的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":7458.919,"end":7482.77,"text":"報告委員我們的就學就業處就是在做這個工作而且我們的容服處是我們處點對於外面的處點跟這個外面的公司都有接觸而且他們都有績效報回來介紹了很多我們退役的官兵去就業當然這個可能我講不出來有50%但是我卻講得出來有25%以上"},{"start":7487.886,"end":7509.497,"text":"謝謝主委我是希望說這個以後未來的統計相關的資料能夠也放在相關的報告好的那我們就可以知道說我們的基礎點在哪邊那有沒有逐年的往上提升那這樣的話我還是希望說未來其實很多將官你說他的這個年資很高但其實以現在台灣人民的這個健康的水平其實他們能夠"},{"start":7511.018,"end":7538.476,"text":"復出的還是可以很多啦像主委也80了嗎80歲那還是持續的在崗位我想很多退役的國防軍方特別是美國的我看很多他們不管是退役的將領其實都還是很活躍的不管是在智庫上面不管是在軍工產業方面或者是就只是在NGO單純的為他們的這些軍民來去發聲或者是在重要的期刊來去發聲我想這些都是我們可以努力的方向我是希望說大家"},{"start":7539.477,"end":7565.869,"text":"不要把說已經退休的這個將領就當成是就完全沒有他的實際效益或者是只是作為去這些新自備的地方我認為是有很多能夠發揮的我剛剛講的是將領包含校局軍官也好包含這個士官軍官也好那不要讓他們一出來就是士官那出來的這個選項那相對較少我是認為說可以試著去開拓他的可能性比方說"},{"start":7567.278,"end":7567.358,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7591.48,"end":7617.954,"text":"退輔會相關單位安置情形如果我們可以把它轉到那一個powerpoint沒關係沒有沒關係吼那裡面就有保持股率跟安置率那比方說新興水泥啊新興呃遠隆氣體公司那持股率是40%安置率是50%有些持股率是39%那安置率是31%那本來我們是想說欸那我們持股率應該要跟安置率一樣高啊那最好是越高越好這樣安置的更多可是我後來想一想那不見得是正確的喔這個"},{"start":7619.375,"end":7619.595,"text":"國防創新管道"},{"start":7643.987,"end":7671.637,"text":"這個在美國的近四五年不斷的有在提到這個部分那意思就是說在國防創新的這個部分當中退伍的軍官他們一退役之後進入這些科技產業他們能夠扮演的角色其實是很大的因為大家知道我們現在面臨的挑戰也不是只有只有軍購買自己軍備而已不是國防就是入海空而已金融戰科技戰法律戰那其實國防部還有包含這個法律專精的這些"},{"start":7672.857,"end":7695.93,"text":"軍事、軍方那跟一般民間的律師又不同嘛因為他們不知道這裡面的題目那所以說未來如果說這些小型創新的產業剛才提到剛才幾位委員都有提到你們有出國嘛去美國來交流我們說實質內容是什麼我們不問這麼空泛的問題我們甚至可以說這一些過去退役的軍官這些將領在美國的退役的軍官將領他們現在在做什麼"},{"start":7696.795,"end":7705.392,"text":"我們這些退換交易我們現在能做什麼那這些產業是不是能夠連結在一起我們是不是能夠把我們的產業打入美國的市場這些都是可以的"},{"start":7706.967,"end":7729.052,"text":"主委要說什麼?沒有要說什麼。我覺得您講的方向都是正確的。謝謝主委。以台中地區來講,其實有很多機密機械產業,這些產業他們做得很好,他們甚至跨入一些航太的市場。比如說嘉義有一些產業是直接進入特斯拉的產業,可是這些產業其實跟軍事相關是有相關的。"},{"start":7730.012,"end":7751.122,"text":"那這一些我們剛才講到將官也好你們曾經有派駐到國外去的他們可以作為這些民營純民營企業很好的公司顧問他們就不必再心自卑他們也不必說就會被立法委員們諮詢說你們是什麼肥媽媽什麼的不必啊因為他們有能力啊那這些過去我看不管是我們"},{"start":7752.623,"end":7767.777,"text":"國防部送出去海軍陸軍這些官校的我看到有些還進入到最好的是甚至去哈佛大學拿到電腦做事的都有那過去那當然就不用什麼西點軍像這些都是很好的這些軍人那進入體制之後有些可能是有些可能不是我們不管"},{"start":7769.176,"end":7794.821,"text":"當然要管啦抱歉我是說那些不適應的真的退休之後或者是退伍或者是根本就不想要進入這個產業進入國防才但是他們過去還是在國家栽培至少他們可以在商業的部分來替國家經濟做一份努力今天大概是想要請教這個主委未來這個方向不知道會不會可不可以納入國防創新產業這些跟這些國防工業相關的會納入你們的這個統計標準裡面還有一個績效的指標"},{"start":7797.97,"end":7813.775,"text":"報告委員,這幾年我們在您提醒我們的這些事項中間我們也已經有很大的進步比如說國機國造、國艦國造造就了很多我們軍方的人才能夠進去幫忙"},{"start":7815.856,"end":7843.735,"text":"再加上我們有了國防供應鏈供應商這些都是跟國防有關的對完全同意我現在講的不是幹大事我現在說幹小事就是說你們在產業裡面小的中小企業裡面的小事跟這些大型投資不是大型投資中小型的投資跟這一些校級軍官剛退役的怎麼樣輔導他們可以進入這項產業鏈裡面怎麼樣可以讓他們飛不只是在台灣的產業鏈甚至可以到美國的產業鏈裡面我覺得這是一個"},{"start":7846.016,"end":7848.217,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會"},{"start":7874.923,"end":7874.983,"text":"主席"},{"start":7902.272,"end":7927.026,"text":"接下來請馮生漢委員上台質詢等一下不好意思剛剛我先宣告一下抱歉目前收到臨時提案有疑案待會許曉欣委員質詢完畢以後我們休息10分鐘休息過後處理臨時提案請鳳主委請鳳主委"},{"start":7935.051,"end":7936.754,"text":"副委員早副委員首先副委員"},{"start":7943.017,"end":7958.932,"text":"我還是要先謝謝馮主委這幾年在退輔會其實我覺得是非常非常大的貢獻那當然但是這次今天很可能也是馮主委也許有機會是最後一次到立法院來備詢那我還是想針對幾個問題跟馮主委來這邊請教那我也想請人事處的吳處長在旁邊協助"},{"start":7966.642,"end":7982.731,"text":"主委我們看一下這個新聞2024年全球最佳醫院排行榜出爐臺北榮總超越臺大入選250強我們看到這個新聞當然我們非常替北榮感到開心尤其北榮真的是一間非常好的醫院"},{"start":7984.144,"end":7984.485,"text":"主委同不同意"},{"start":8000.387,"end":8025.618,"text":"主委我們再看下面這個新聞臺中的慈濟醫院他在推護理人員準時下班他藉由流程的改善讓護理人員可以準時下班包括讓工作跟家庭可以兼顧所以也包括最近我們看到他的數據是他的留任率簽約留任率高達89.3%所以主委我想請問我們總共有16家日融醫那目前大概聘僱多少護理人員"},{"start":8028.785,"end":8055.437,"text":"報告委員我是救醫保健處處長張仁義我們就是有4個總院跟12個分院那我們都是按照那個編制方面都是盡量能夠有充足的人力市長我這邊的數據大概是有大概1萬名左右的護理人員那我們來看一下其實佔最多護理人員3,221名的北榮還有北榮育女分院的加班政策"},{"start":8057.126,"end":8069.2,"text":"這個是北榮護理部排班作業要點裡面寫的加班工時最遲於加班事時發生後的24小時內完成班表修訂主委你覺得這樣子的規定合不合理"},{"start":8070.315,"end":8092.36,"text":"報告委員最近因為我們有就這個問題已經做討論了現在目前已經修訂就是說你發生這個事實說一週之內七天之內完成這個已經修改過流程了是處長我是希望我們當然可以拉長到甚至到一個月因為我們看到幾個其他的月包括像三種國防部的軍醫局下面他們可能甚至是沒有期限了"},{"start":8093.72,"end":8094.14,"text":"第二點 主委"},{"start":8119.545,"end":8145.182,"text":"我們現在看到確實有些部分可能是有違反勞基法的問題我們來看到依據臺北榮總勞工加班管制作業規定的第二項的第二點細節來看這頭影片那我們看到這邊有兩個重點第一個是他的加班補休是以小時來計第二個是在一年內沒有補休完畢的話不另外支給加班費"},{"start":8148.355,"end":8165.048,"text":"這兩點其實狀況我們看到不是只是北榮經過我們辦公室的調查總共有7個相關的機構都是以小時來計算這個加班費的單位包括北榮新竹分院包括北榮蘇澳分院包括北榮玉里分院"},{"start":8166.168,"end":8171.432,"text":"中榮、埔里分院、高雄榮總、雄榮、台南分院、屏東榮總"},{"start":8195.988,"end":8222.723,"text":"這剛才那個規定其實已經有違反勞基法的問題勞工部是很清楚說僱主給付勞工工資應計算至分鐘以工作未滿一小時時間能夠換算成小時後來給加班費比方說如果你加班20分鐘的話你可能是要給三分之一小時的加班費所以不是我今天加班50分鐘後面都不算現在我們看到幾個榮譽相關的規定這是違反勞基法的部長你覺得該不該修改"},{"start":8224.281,"end":8228.974,"text":"假設我們有這個狀況我們去修改我想院長你要講"},{"start":8230.81,"end":8254.848,"text":"報告委員這個事情我們醫院已經努力在做謝謝你對護理人員的關心我們現在程式是在整個調動大概6月底會完成完成之後測試無餘之後不只護理師我們其他的職類會比較辦理照顧好員工因為我現在在講當然不是只是北榮的狀況我剛才說了其實我們調查包括7所相關的榮譽的機構都有相對應的問題"},{"start":8258.681,"end":8281.946,"text":"這個我需要主委給個承諾這7所通通都要改沒有問題吧只要有類似狀況的都要改是 包委員我們有調查過而且請他們在於這個最遲今年年底會為什麼到今年年底因為有些涉及到這個是違法耶再來說下個月就要改啦這是違法的事情啊你們的規定違法"},{"start":8284.722,"end":8290.315,"text":"這不是合法大家談合不合理的問題這是違法違法是我們要讓他到年底嗎"},{"start":8292.027,"end":8313.96,"text":"最遲年底最遲年底就是可以到年底的意思啊這樣子委員啊我們馬上下去就來檢討而且以這種牢記法的規定來設定我們未來的做法部長我要再跟你說剛剛談到下面一個是如果這個一年沒有補修完喔"},{"start":8315.326,"end":8337.736,"text":"這個補休的就當作這個不予給付這個我們在勞基法裡面看起來也是違法的喔這我也不贊成這也是違法的喔對照理來說如果未休完的時數沒有補休完的時數其實就應該發給加班費這勞基法是規定的很清楚的喔所以部長這些相關的規定我說的不是只是北榮當然我們現在拿很多拿北榮的相關的規定來檢視"},{"start":8340.543,"end":8358.022,"text":"但是這些我看到大部分都是在榮譽啊因為我們來看比照軍醫局的三種其實確實以三種來看相對應他們都是合於合法合於規定的所以部長你覺得什麼時候我們可以把這些這等於是違法的規定啊我們這樣好不好我們下去馬上檢討"},{"start":8361.515,"end":8384.041,"text":"有改進的必要馬上我們就來做一個月內一個月可能太短了那多久三個月我們一定把它做好三個月是不是是的部長主委我相信你可以三個月做但我要要求這些相關的規定剛才講這些加班相關的規定我要要求是退輔會下所有的事業體除了16個榮譽以外"},{"start":8388.514,"end":8404.46,"text":"這是違法勞基法的問題照理來說我們其實相關的事業體有沒有類似的問題都應該一併的檢視啊是吧對的這不是合不合理的問題啊委員您不要擔心我們不能夠讓人家覺得我們是政府或我們政府的相關的事業在帶頭違法啊"},{"start":8407.36,"end":8430.629,"text":"這條線我是畫在違法,不是合不合理,不是要有更優於法規的待遇,不是,我們是要求不能違法是,這可能我們有點行政上的疏忽,並不是故意要去違法我相信不是故意所以您放心,我們會馬上檢討是非常非常優秀的意願,但像這些地方我覺得都讓我們相關的行政管理人員有觸法的疑慮,我是很擔心他們"},{"start":8431.249,"end":8440.568,"text":"一方面對我們醫護人員報不平二方面我覺得在這個規定之下真的讓很多主管我其實覺得他們也很容易真的違反法規"},{"start":8442.112,"end":8464.144,"text":"那我們一併就快速的三個月內把這些相關我們相關退輔會相關的事業體我們都能夠做一併的檢視跟修訂好可以嗎好的好不好所以就不只是16個榮譽喔所有的事業體我們希望大家不要違法這沒有問題啦好不好報告委員上個月以後你要問新的主委了當然但我會跟他說這是馮主委答應我的對我會交代下去沒錯沒問題好謝謝"},{"start":8470.99,"end":8478.71,"text":"好謝謝我們接下來請鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌鍾嘉斌委員不在請徐曉欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":8497.074,"end":8497.695,"text":"請馮主委"},{"start":8523.997,"end":8541.903,"text":"主委早安抱歉我有點中感冒所以跟你的互動傷可能我反應會比較慢一些感冒要吃太多那首先呢我覺得非常感謝你在這段期間為中華民國的努力那如果要我來評價"},{"start":8543.644,"end":8568.891,"text":"我們所有民進黨政府的官員裡面呢我最敬佩的一位就是你因為很多這個不管有什麼樣的政治壓力你總是能夠言你所言那這件事情在這個政府裡面當官並不是一件容易的事情尤其我們有很多的委員不分藍綠提出退輔會應該要檢討的地方"},{"start":8571.132,"end":8586.984,"text":"你也都很率直的馬上去辦那我也希望下一任能夠接任退輔會的主委的人能夠效法你的精神讓我們的榮民榮眷他們感受到真的受到的照顧"},{"start":8589.925,"end":8603.81,"text":"我首先想要請問一下最近我們的陳建仁院長他做了一個指示他說要在一個月內在軍中研擬所謂的轉型正義的小組"},{"start":8605.206,"end":8617.854,"text":"那這個轉型正義小組雖然是在軍中但是對於我們的退輔會裡面多多少少也有擺放一些蔣公的銅像或是蔣公的畫像或是蔣公的紀念品那這個對於我們的"},{"start":8622.157,"end":8622.598,"text":"我堅決反對"},{"start":8645.25,"end":8648.192,"text":"假如沒有講過把黃金、人才跟部隊帶到台灣來今天不會有安定的台灣的發展"},{"start":8670.936,"end":8689.881,"text":"再講一句,蔣公帶到台灣來的部隊,不是串淘,而是有計劃性的,到這裡來將台灣成為復興基地,雖然反攻大陸並沒有執行成功,但是卻把台灣建設成世界的"},{"start":8692.096,"end":8721.66,"text":"譬如說我們現在有護國神山我們有醫院變成我們護民的神盾等等這些都是蔣公帶給我們的假如這一些的事實只是看到他在這個所謂的白色恐怖中間抓到許多的匪諜加以處置就認為這是一種殘害我覺得這是不公平不正義的也不是全民所能夠接受的"},{"start":8724.011,"end":8738.609,"text":"謝謝主委您剛講的話讓我非常的感動因為呢我的外公他也是湖南的老兵當時1949年跟著這個中華民國政府軍一起來到台灣"},{"start":8740.11,"end":8756.316,"text":"在823砲戰的時候他也跟著我們的國軍弟兄一起上到戰場上面跟他的弟弟兩個人為了台灣為了中華民國作戰最後只生存下一個人就是我的外公"},{"start":8757.316,"end":8779.369,"text":"所以我會覺得這一些退伍的老兵我們的榮民榮眷或許我們現在生活在一個民主國家我們雖然有兩岸軍事的恫嚇但是至少都還是在一個和平的範圍裡面沒有人因為戰爭死去沒有人因為戰爭的關係造成家破人亡"},{"start":8780.35,"end":8803.239,"text":"我的外公雖然他活下來了但他一輩子都想著他當初沒有保護好弟弟所以他最後抑鬱而死那這某種程度也造成了我們家庭的傷害我的爺爺很早很早在我搶寶嬰兒的時候他就離開人世了因為不堪戰爭後續所帶來的痛苦"},{"start":8803.979,"end":8803.999,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":8830.356,"end":8854.115,"text":"而蔣公他當時帶領了1949年這麼多的人到了臺灣來或許有一些的族群的衝突但是隔了這麼多年我們也看到了族群之間慢慢的融合很多人是外省的第二代第三代也已經沒有再區分了像以我今年34歲我的"},{"start":8857.057,"end":8872.319,"text":"外婆是客家人﹚我的外婆是外省﹚我的外婆﹚我的外公是外省湖南長德人﹚是一名軍人﹚我的外婆是燕九公賣局的公務人員﹚是一名本省人﹚我的爸爸"},{"start":8873.34,"end":8873.36,"text":"馮世寬"},{"start":8892.478,"end":8912.553,"text":"在現在這個好像政府都要把轉型正義當成是第一要務的同時你願意把自己的主張大聲的講出來我也希望如果有下一任的退輔會的主委他也能夠像你一樣做這麼清楚的表述因為對於這些榮民跟榮眷來說這是對他們的"},{"start":8918.277,"end":8934.147,"text":"生活對他們的信仰非常非常重要的一塊那希望說主委是不是在您到時候人選接替的時候也能夠將這樣子的主張向下一任的主委傳遞下去"},{"start":8934.864,"end":8961.724,"text":"是的我會的好謝謝那另外呢我想跟您討論一下這個單身退員宿舍的部分最近呢在台北市信義區裡面總共有243位的退員遺孀其中有67人正在被國防部申請民事訴訟排站中雖然是單身退社但時空背景不同過去的執法比較鬆散"},{"start":8962.845,"end":8974.735,"text":"所以後續呢雖然是單身退社但是卻有不少的遺孀住在裡面那能夠遷移的我們也作為民代很積極的協助但是呢"},{"start":8975.959,"end":9002.856,"text":"全責上土地是軍備局退社是政戰局退員是屬於退輔會遺孀則是由臺北市社會局在協助那我不曉得未來退輔會有沒有可能一起幫忙因為現在的情況就是這些遺孀他不願意搬遷不願意搬遷的結果他們會受到很多的一些法律上面甚至他未來要返還他的這個"},{"start":9004.497,"end":9006.378,"text":"是的,我覺得我們已經在處理這些事情了"},{"start":9031.369,"end":9050.741,"text":"委員好我是服務照顧處處長那麼針對我們退社的這些遺卷我們有很積極的在協助他們要轉介到我們相關的一些社福的一些機構但是因為他們都不願搬走最主要就是說他住在那邊他不要錢他連水電都不用付"},{"start":9051.521,"end":9077.234,"text":"所以說他搬到外面去他就必須要去面對他生活上的一些支出是我們也跟台北市政府的一些相關的社福資源在做鏈接勸他們一定要搬走不然的話會面對這個法律上的一些問題可是就我們知道啊每個地方可能不一樣像在我的選區裡面大我新社已經裝設了水電表了所以他們的水電是要付錢的"},{"start":9077.694,"end":9105.664,"text":"不是像您所說的那個是有部分對對對我講的就是在大我新社因為像這裡我收到的這個全部都是來自遺孀的陳秦涵我們不希望就是說他當年可能這是單身退社他們確實有不對的地方但因為當時的執法鬆散所以那時候他們已經一起住了可是因為他的先生比他早離開之後就要把他們都趕走了"},{"start":9106.184,"end":9131.479,"text":"他們對於這件事情就覺得很不公平就是說當我先生還在的時候我們國防部所頒的法令是好啦雖然是單身退社但是既然你是軍人就讓你們一起住但等到他的先生軍人一旦死亡以後就趕著把這一線遺裝都趕走這個是讓他們覺得很不舒服的那我今天時間不太夠"},{"start":9132.279,"end":9132.659,"text":"可以嗎?可以好 謝謝主委謝謝"},{"start":9161.075,"end":9161.556,"text":"謝謝徐委員我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":9226.372,"end":9251.692,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":9252.312,"end":9267.722,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":9783.871,"end":9789.274,"text":"我們繼續開會現在處理臨時提案請議事人員宣讀臨時提案"},{"start":9792.506,"end":9815.38,"text":"依據全國軍公教員工待遇知己要點及行政院人事行政總署2017年7月3日總署及自地10600502952號函規定退伍軍職人員子女教育補助費發給對象目前僅補助退除亦軍官領奉子女教補費發放對象仍維持中校含士官以下"},{"start":9816.36,"end":9837.195,"text":"施立大選每學年71600元公立大選每學年27200元應行政院2023年底通過教育部拉近公私立學校學雜費差距及其配套措施方案至2024年2月新學期開始後補助施立大專院校生學費"},{"start":9838.636,"end":9856.895,"text":"每學年3萬5千元公立大學則是家庭所得狀況而定最高每學年2萬元最低每學年1萬5千元上述輔導會與教育部之方案只能擇由其一方案勤領補助建於政府補助公私立大學學費之德政"},{"start":9857.475,"end":9885.071,"text":"退伍軍人學費補助與政府補助公司力大學學費兼差距大幅減少在行政院整體預算支出不增加的情況下建請輔導會有關上校階以上擬奉人員指令教補費之事應積極研議並爭取以促進退伍跑者權益提案人委員王定宇、羅美玲、陳冠廷、沈伯陽、洪生翰、林楚英、馬文君、黃仁、徐巧心等委員宣讀完畢"},{"start":9888.31,"end":9890.971,"text":"請問提案委員需不需要說明?退輔會對於提案內容有沒有意見?這個其實很欣慰可以看到這一次王定宇召委可以提這個案子因為這個案子在108年、109年、110年國民黨黨團其實也都陸續有提案"},{"start":9917.622,"end":9944.122,"text":"其實也都有通過可是一直都還沒有辦法落實執行所以我們也希望說就這個部分其實在這一次大家都有共識的情況之下尤其教育部也編列了一些相關的補助如果我們可以盡早可以通過然後可以推動執行我相信對於跑者他們會更有感所以這個部分我們也都希望大家可以力促可以讓他趕快通過"},{"start":9949.828,"end":9959.978,"text":"第一時空背景的不同來自行政院宣布要補助私立大學3萬5千元每學年公立大學2萬多"},{"start":9960.899,"end":9988.074,"text":"在這個基礎下我們來計算那個差額他的差距就縮小了所以因為這個新的變數所以我們期待今天這個提案通過之後那馮主委我們一起來跟人事總處來溝通協調就是當國家把私立大學的學費補助拉高了把公立大學的補助也拉高了那原來對於退伍軍人上校以上這個職級的補助距離就沒有那麼遠"},{"start":9988.934,"end":9988.954,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":10015.27,"end":10042.47,"text":"謝謝這個案子當然他有背景的不同不過因為對於跑者的照顧我相信不是預算的多寡而是是不是他應該要被照顧所以如果是這樣的情況之下我們也希望這個可以趕快可以通過因為在過去跟現在他們對國家的付出是一致的就這個部分如果退輔會還有所有委員沒有異議那本提案"},{"start":10043.05,"end":10043.77,"text":"請邀請邀請邀請邀請邀請邀請邀請邀請邀請邀請邀請邀請邀請邀請邀請邀請邀請邀請邀請邀請"},{"start":10090.305,"end":10114.601,"text":"我先喘口氣好謝謝主席請這個退伍會馮主委請馮主委今天李副主委在嗎沒有李副主委沒有到我來跟他好感謝一下李副主委臺北農總陳院長北榮陳院長高雄農總陳院長高雄屏東農總冠院長"},{"start":10119.369,"end":10121.91,"text":"高雄屏東兩位院長謝謝各位辛苦了過去一段時間為退伍會業務推動所以說盡心盡力把所有的退伍的這些弟兄的權益不管就學就業就養都顧得非常好也把這個全國的農民總醫院各項業務都這個控制得不錯那"},{"start":10148.752,"end":10168.026,"text":"主委的任期是到520我看人事好像已經也公佈是嚴德發嚴前部長來接任您的位置首先要特別感謝您過去一段時間在退輔會服務所做出的貢獻跟努力我也特別要跟您說李文忠副主委他的專業"},{"start":10169.824,"end":10183.86,"text":"從他在立法院擔任立委國安委會長期的資深委員到退伍會服務大概有8年了吧如果沒錯的話所以他對各項業務都熟悉然後這個對跑者對同仁的照顧"},{"start":10185.1,"end":10187.762,"text":"支持嗎?支持但是太委屈了吧"},{"start":10213.8,"end":10232.22,"text":"這是總統人事權這個不能顧問就是說就他過去所表現我們希望他留下來繼續為退伍會來服務我非常感謝他我當然是希望他能夠更上一層樓但是目前人選已經公佈了嘛那這個另外"},{"start":10233.732,"end":10251.928,"text":"我要謝謝這個主委對這個龍明總醫院的關心特別是臺北龍總臺北龍總在我們陳威名院長的就任之後這個院務革新我想令人耳目一新引人印象深刻那個叫重粒子的一個是嗎是"},{"start":10253.502,"end":10277.521,"text":"重例子那總統也去視察過那是只有除了亞洲除了東京之外日本之外台灣是第二個是這樣子嗎其實對岸有但是我們的機器應該是最好的我們不期待對岸但是期待我們這個能夠為國人健康來守護所以這部分這個高階的這個醫療器材也是榮總這個優先引進"},{"start":10279.642,"end":10289.709,"text":"那我也希望說不只臺北榮總是不是未來南北均衡啊高雄榮總也是不是請諸位啊能夠考量也設置一下服務南部的鄉親啊"},{"start":10292.452,"end":10311.014,"text":"這南北均衡啊,因為你看一下預算我們已經把屏東總醫院成立了我知道啦,屏東高雄都是一體的照顧高屏本來就是應該的那過去因為很多資源都集中在中北部你看一下這過去五年的預決算"},{"start":10312.855,"end":10331.44,"text":"這個高榮是比較委屈的服務的人口數也多啊也不會輸給台北也不會輸給台中那台北跟台中的相對醫療資源相對比較豐沛啊那高雄屏東的這個資源相對比較不足所以啊退伍會應該扮演這個急先鋒的角色"},{"start":10332.708,"end":10354.86,"text":"投入更多資源在南部特別是在高雄跟屏東所以你看從年度預算高榮的預算只有北榮的三分之一耶三分之一左右大概是中榮的一半你看這個預決算嘛這有個表所以我想能夠逐年增加高榮預算這個"},{"start":10357.009,"end":10381.175,"text":"高榮,陳院長,您同意嗎?謝謝邱委員,因為我們三家總統是基金作業我知道了,我也在國安委員會讓任過三次的召委這個部分需要從上面,從上而下如果支持的話,基金可以再充裕嘛長期以來是希望說,三家北中高"},{"start":10382.185,"end":10382.785,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10402.333,"end":10429.35,"text":"許多的這個民眾我想這些地方我們都在努力中其實你可以做一個這個不記名的這個民調如果就立法院的這個國務院來對不管是部立醫院或者是這個部立醫院或者是國軍醫院或者是這個榮總或者是私立醫療院所信任度最高的我相信應該是榮總系統我相信"},{"start":10432.21,"end":10433.391,"text":"北農的那個麗玲啊葉麗玲非常認真啊"},{"start":10458.476,"end":10477.645,"text":"每一件都服務得很好而且立即回報讓我們很安心也很放心高榮的李文英女士也是一樣第一層的為國會聯絡的這些同仁要給予加冕給予鼓勵113個立法委員像我這樣溫良恭儉讓的算是少數"},{"start":10486.718,"end":10512.733,"text":"很多激烈吝嗇的很多他們秉承耐心來為這個選民或者是為國會來協助服務我想特別要跟這個葉麗玲女士跟李文玉女士表示感謝那另外高雄跟屏東農民醫院的這個會不會有這個進合的問題所謂進合的問題就是說人才進合的問題"},{"start":10514.127,"end":10540.707,"text":"那現在草創之期這個屏隆這個很多的這個資源或者人才或者醫師大部分是從高隆借料那這非常久之計啊你那個餅就那麼大醫師就那麼多那你如果借料到高隆借到到屏隆當然固然是好是一種協助趕快上軌道但是這個高隆的能量就會因此降低"},{"start":10542.854,"end":10567.982,"text":"這個主委你要去思考這個問題怎麼樣報委員 我知道的是狀況啊比外面想像的要好很多因為我最近才去過高融我特別問陳院長我在資源上或者協調上有沒有問題陳院長馬上講沒有問題而且吳院長跟我也很熟所以這些方面呢我想委員關心是非常好我們中間要把它做得更好"},{"start":10570.157,"end":10581.204,"text":"所以就我們跟這個包括台大友大醫學院其他的這個部立院有合作的對象那我們主要是跟這個是跟陽明合作嗎"},{"start":10583.667,"end":10602.303,"text":"是跟陽明大學合作嗎?我們的醫師的培育啊?就是說榮總醫師的經驗跟培育主要來源是這個?報告委員,榮總體系的醫師來自全國各醫學院但是因為北榮離陽明剛好在隔壁有一半以上的醫師來自陽明交大"},{"start":10603.104,"end":10627.039,"text":"所以對醫師的這個人才的這個這個增補或者是禁用都是全國各醫療醫療所有醫學院都可以對所以他的可以所以我的確點出這個問題那這個主委你也了解希望能夠不要造成說兩個醫院的互相支援的這個不要說排擠就是不足的部分"},{"start":10628.493,"end":10652.195,"text":"那那個岡山農家這個主席站起來再給我25秒鐘這個岡山農家是不是可以因為農家的地方也大地方也大是不是可以因為這個幼兒園這個公托一直都不夠是不是除了我們現在的農家這些長輩的照護之外是不是可以在多餘的空間開設一個幼兒園"},{"start":10654.662,"end":10673.981,"text":"我們非常歡迎的,因為我們已經有3處非營利幼兒園設立了,效果良好對阿,高雄農家,花蓮農家跟馬蘭嘛,那岡山農家條件也不錯,是不是一個月之內請主委,則是我們相關主委去做評估這還寫條教育部,說一個月不夠"},{"start":10674.702,"end":10677.565,"text":"接下來請侯孟楷委員,侯孟楷,侯孟楷委員不在,請林益君委員上台質詢"},{"start":10713.171,"end":10714.312,"text":"主席好有請主委"},{"start":10724.926,"end":10753.123,"text":"主委早520新內閣即將上任所以今天可能是你擔任主委最後一次來立法院備詢的機會所以其實本期擔任立委以來有注意到觀察到大鵬主委其實發現你這幾年任期都真的十分的努力而且為全體國軍退除役官兵們及弱勢年老的農民們都是爭取最大的權益這點其實大家都有看到"},{"start":10754.023,"end":10759.367,"text":"本席也聽說你對於在輔導會裡面擔任替代役的藝男們都是一視同仁的而且也非常的照顧甚至從去年2023年開始都主動要求輔導會會幫這些會內擔任替代役的藝男們規劃到各地所屬的機構短期的駐點然後去建學計畫真的是用心良苦所以值得稱讚是 謝謝"},{"start":10781.24,"end":10804.351,"text":"主委你這輩子有如此豐富的國防還有國安的經驗那請問你現在的任務是否還想要繼續擔任政府的職務繼續為中華民國的國家安全貢獻呢不會我會關心國家的安全但是我想到宮廟去做一個主委所以是那有沒有計畫繼續貢獻你的專業為國家擔任志工"},{"start":10807.432,"end":10835.624,"text":"我們有很多的這個優秀的人才我想我們這個年紀應該是進退讓給年輕人好謝謝主委日前行政院也公佈內閣已經確確會將由前國防部長嚴德發再次回到輔導會接任主委的職務那請問主委你對嚴前部長再次回任有什麼看法還是對他有沒有什麼特別的期許呢"},{"start":10836.991,"end":10837.011,"text":"謝謝諸位"},{"start":10862.458,"end":10865.041,"text":"那我再問一個問題就是針對榮民服務照顧經濟的作為．退輔會在本次的報告第8頁中有指出將加強訪視頻率主動發掘遭逢意外傷害罹患重病致生活陷入困境的榮民還有榮眷"},{"start":10882.561,"end":10890.085,"text":"發語極難的救助金紓困．並以此零四零三花蓮地震受災榮民榮眷救助已經175人次新台幣153萬3千元但本席有發現還有另外一個問題想請教與拜託主委在卸任前來共同來協助看看那就是有關協助聽障還有語障者就醫的溝通障礙問題"},{"start":10908.252,"end":10913.398,"text":"因為目前我們花東地區的公立醫院都沒有設立聽與專業人員的職缺因為沒有聽與專業人的職缺也沒有這個職缺的設立造成花東地區聽障與障患者的溝通障礙"},{"start":10925.572,"end":10933.957,"text":"還有吞嚥障礙的個案根本享受不到醫療服務品質的提升其實在偏鄉也希望有一樣有一些好的醫療品質因為退伍會在花蓮有臺北榮總御理榮民分院"},{"start":10940.7,"end":10945.921,"text":"所以本席希望藉此機會想建議主委是否願意協助事辦聽語專業人員職缺的徵才也可以試辦看看招募臨時的事辦也可以藉此方式來改善聽障還有語障者的溝通障礙畢竟我們有很多榮民榮眷這個年紀都不小而且聽力也不是很好然後就醫的時候其實有很多許多的聽語專業人員其實都可以協助這方面的需求還有服務他們"},{"start":10970.325,"end":10993.007,"text":"那不曉得退輔會的想法是怎樣報告委員那個語言治療師的確是很重要不過我們努力在育理分院一直在招募怎麼招都沒有人來包括台北榮總我們編制有6位語言治療師也只來了4位所以我們都努力在爭財中因為這是"},{"start":10994.969,"end":11005.477,"text":"人才難求我們真的很努力想要幫忙那目前還沒有的時候我們就把他轉到花蓮慈濟那得幫助他們得到好的照顧但是會繼續想辦法"},{"start":11007.483,"end":11011.625,"text":"謝謝因為畢竟花蓮慈濟和玉里其實還是有一點遠嘛我是希望說因為我們還是要服務藍花蓮地區這些農民啊這些農圈還有這些的醫療讓我們提升我們的醫療的品質那是不是可以看看是什麼方面為什麼招不到人呢是薪水太少呢還是沒有夠優惑還是沒有什麼比較吸引他們的人來到我們"},{"start":11034.215,"end":11035.658,"text":"花東地區來服務呢這個可能要我們來要研究看看然後商量看看這樣好不好謝謝"},{"start":11046.864,"end":11064.391,"text":"在提到未來退輔會主委嚴德發前部長根據媒體的報導他其實也深附深化輔導會與美國退役軍人團體的惡鬼外交所以的這個任務為了深化與國際退伍軍人交流合作的進度"},{"start":11065.171,"end":11072.137,"text":"退輔會在會期開始的時候就有說明指出了為了強化與各國退伍軍人組織的交流然後民國2022年1月開始就開始有外派人赴美國然後派駐兩位人員在美國紐約的駐美代表處專門負責與美國各地的退伍軍人團體交流"},{"start":11086.389,"end":11086.409,"text":"是這樣嗎?"},{"start":11108.846,"end":11109.126,"text":"委員會主任"},{"start":11122.742,"end":11126.064,"text":"所以看來無論是從臺美關係還是臺灣跟民主陣營國家長期的發展趨勢來看未來擔負的惡鬼外交的角色其實是越來越重要"},{"start":11149.298,"end":11149.758,"text":"報告委員我們這個駐美的兩位人員"},{"start":11171.122,"end":11191.741,"text":"爭取了兩年立法院才同意但是我們發現了在立院的資源之下效果非常的良好因為我們在英國法國都有派駐這個武官這個武官就是民意上的所以我想我們有些業務可能會托他們來辦理"},{"start":11193.376,"end":11221.257,"text":"假如我們計劃好了我們可能在歐洲其他的國家也可以去那麼最重要的是不但是要照顧農民還要把我們地區我們那些在外面移民到美國去的這些國民也聯合在一起所以我們跟僑務委員會也有很密切的合作希望我們一次開會雙方都到"},{"start":11222.536,"end":11230.799,"text":"團結力量,協同一致人力不是問題,我們有語言能力的人非常多問題在於一個政策我們如何去推展然後再請大院支持"},{"start":11246.51,"end":11271.576,"text":"所以現在負責海外活動與交流的相關業務其實只有服務照顧處的海外科在辦理,是不是這樣?是的,因為他們長年跟他們接觸而且接待已經有兩次我們總統蔡總統的這個講話都能夠在他們的大會中間播放我個人也播放過一次,這些都是一些成果"},{"start":11273.211,"end":11276.716,"text":"所以照這樣來講如果說我們剛才這樣來研議的情況一下就是說如果他再繼續推廣的話可能海外科同仁的業務是不是會日益的加重這樣是不是會不會會造成同仁們業務上面爆竿的情況呢"},{"start":11289.956,"end":11306.388,"text":"這個我們會檢討假如有必要增加人手我個人是贊成的因為我在美國當過武官我底下有兩個副武官所以每個人分擔的業務不一樣但是都非常的沉重所以我們會考量"},{"start":11307.575,"end":11330.589,"text":"而且這位同仁7月份就會回來回來之後我們再聽聽他的意見這樣子我們能夠更落實這個政策好 謝謝主委就是說如果我們這個業務一直在加重然後在繼續推廣的情況下然後業務加重的情況下我們在人力上面是否有短缺可能就要考慮一下來會的OK好 謝謝主委謝謝委員謝謝林委員"},{"start":11337.959,"end":11366.656,"text":"接下來請賴世寶委員上台質詢謝謝主席及各位先進有請退輔會的馮主委請馮主委委員恭喜您又當選了"},{"start":11368.715,"end":11385.199,"text":"我要恭喜你還是要天裡萬溪要離開這個位置我覺得您對我有很多的啟發比如說您競選的時候在CNN都拿我的講話來給您當競選的資料我覺得非常的榮幸因為你講的跟別人不一樣俗話說啦齁"},{"start":11394.423,"end":11412.901,"text":"人之將去,這個去是去字,你在這個位置,其言也善,其言也真。我希望你今天,我看你今天都笑嘻嘻的,每一個人都不為難你,我不會為難你,讓你盡上所欲人,好不好,但是你講真話,講好話,就是啊,"},{"start":11419.206,"end":11447.489,"text":"你要不要看一下因為你當過國防部長當過退伍會主委都很吃重的工作了那你要不要看一下顧立雄這個文人部長你怎麼看文人部長他是第七個文人部長那我在立法院多年了我看到文人部長後面成績不怎麼樣"},{"start":11449.731,"end":11449.951,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":11478.399,"end":11506.982,"text":"前面的幾位文人部長都沒有當過國安會的秘書長對於國安對於國防可能都會申書所以您會評論他們的表現不是十分的讓人家能夠讚揚但是顧先生我要先聲明我跟他沒有私交除了公務的點頭之交之外"},{"start":11507.947,"end":11520.711,"text":"我覺得換一個在國安會當過秘書長的管兩岸事務以及我們軍國防事務的去當部長也是一個新的嘗試。國防可以嘗試嗎?"},{"start":11524.978,"end":11543.269,"text":"我們可以這麼說喔你看他律師當了當這個這個處長會的主委然後就金管委主委國防委秘書長我覺得他好像是十項全能欸你不覺得這個政府對他來講蔡英文對他來講十分壞一路提攜啊"},{"start":11544.773,"end":11568.811,"text":"是不是這個難道你沒有一絲絲的擔心嗎你就是其實你不用拍他馬屁吧對不對你不用我剛才講話有拍他馬屁嗎感覺有一點我的感覺有一點假如有一點我收回很收回不要收回啦你講話講出來就不要收回我今天是帶了很誠意來跟你對話我會珍惜這樣的最後一次的對話"},{"start":11570.672,"end":11587.076,"text":"這是第一個所以你對他是肯定大於否定是這樣講對吧我覺得他當過國安會秘書長比前面的文人直接來當部長應該頗具優勢那你要這樣講陳履安有沒有當過國防部長他有當過阿對啊那他的背景他爸爸陳陳阿他的軍方背景很強阿他沒有當過兵阿他沒有指揮過部隊阿他是文人部長阿"},{"start":11600.572,"end":11606.475,"text":"我們這樣子好了,刮目來看,顧委員是不是,顧部長是不是能夠做得更好?因為他經過國安會這麼多長時間的歷練,這樣子,這個不是拍馬屁吧?"},{"start":11624.164,"end":11639.85,"text":"我比較擔心是到時候緊急情況按鈕按錯了我比較擔心這個第二個這個我們關心的其實請問你退輔會你在國防部長跟退輔會任內你自己自詡哪一個單位你做比較好我覺得"},{"start":11644.212,"end":11672.372,"text":"國防部我是盡力了所以我稱自己是100分嘛但是在這個退輔會啊做的時間比較長能夠做一些長期規劃的事這個有成就感也是100分我不敢打100分但是我覺得我的確是努力了你講國防部長100分那你退輔會就代表退輔會做得比較差我都覺得你退輔會做得不差欸"},{"start":11673.925,"end":11696.39,"text":"最少譬如說榮總體系就做得很好阿是 謝謝是不是北榮你知道北榮今年阿不得了阿得到世界的排名阿對我要講這個世界排名只有北榮阿拍謝喔其他總榮高榮也很好我只是特別講但是你們沒有入名北榮入名阿是不是了不起阿我都以為這次衛武部長是他你知道嗎猜錯了"},{"start":11700.506,"end":11706.632,"text":"報告委員我也是這麼猜測對阿你看你跟我講的一樣我心裡想叫你站在院長就對這部長哈哈哈哈施裝哈蘇哈蘇你聽懂這個意思嗎聽懂聽懂嗎西裝穿起來很fitfit對不對他來當衛務部長那比邱太元好人不知道幾倍的幾倍阿實在是這樣"},{"start":11724.887,"end":11751.899,"text":"你們趕快講幾句現話卓龍泰看錯人啦實在是所以才押一個陳時中來當地下部長謝謝敬愛的委員我可不可以澄清一下醫學院畢業以後我就進入輔導會醫療體系它是我唯一的家我剩下的三年多的時間如果長官允許我會繼續幹到退休也不會去爭取任何職位報效國家這個不要爭取啦"},{"start":11754.39,"end":11778.598,"text":"這個不用爭取這是長官的關愛什麼關愛的眼神請問請問請問主委你樂見我們北龍院長出任衛務部長吧這個表示我們兩個英雄所見略同對啊這個今天最喜歡聽的就你這句話好最後一個選民服務請主席給我一點點時間我要講一下我在立院多年"},{"start":11783.376,"end":11796.043,"text":"我每次被這個案子我都掉眼淚不知道怎麼辦找你們幾次就是什麼就是國安體系的這些跑者退下來的"},{"start":11798.646,"end":11816.718,"text":"一樣是軍人樓你跟我同學黃埔第幾期的入關第幾期的結果你去陸海空你有配到宿舍我沒有宿舍到處陳情我們的主席也認真在幫忙捲改基金硬活生生的不給啊"},{"start":11817.899,"end":11841.42,"text":"國安會的秘書長、副秘書長到我辦公室講了幾次他們起立主張應該給他們配宿舍但是國安部不肯這個事你知道對不對?不知道不知道?找過你咧找過你那時候當部長的時候沒有找到你本人但是你的幕僚你不知道這個事就是一樣都是軍人"},{"start":11842.981,"end":11849.808,"text":"委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任委員會主任"},{"start":11864.793,"end":11867.434,"text":"退輔會沒有圈改基金沒有基地"},{"start":11892.398,"end":11892.538,"text":"叫做什麼?"},{"start":11917.919,"end":11927.577,"text":"六個單位有三四百戶喔六個單位他們都垂垂老矣他們心裡的恨就帶進棺材喔真的我講的比較重的話就這樣子喔"},{"start":11928.206,"end":11949.045,"text":"委員我補充一下我是服務照顧處處長當初這六個眷社他是沒有納入到眷改總策的眷改基地那當初應該是有一些經過一些調查或一些作業那相關的一些作業呢可能要國防部這邊還是要來解套退輔會是負責服務照顧他們的問題我們會協助他們來跟國防部來做一些討論"},{"start":11951.047,"end":11972.06,"text":"但是追根究柢這就是在眷村改建條老舊眷村改建條例裡面它不是列入在它的改建的那個基地裡面我知道嘛就是為什麼不列入嘛一樣都是軍人一樣都是管校我們同學比如說我今天跟馮世寬是同學對不對你就有我就沒有我一輩子"},{"start":11973.081,"end":11973.541,"text":"委員您的講話"},{"start":11996.476,"end":11996.656,"text":"好,那以"},{"start":12026.262,"end":12035.914,"text":"登記質詢委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議由羅志強委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關已書面於兩週內答覆"},{"start":12042.382,"end":12053.774,"text":"本日委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分會要求補充資料者亦請相關單位書面於兩週內提供委員令約定期限者從期鎖定。"},{"start":12058.598,"end":12072.088,"text":"有專業證照的部分 藥生跟護士的部分請一個禮拜之內提出方向跟做法給本席的辦公室接下來我們本日會議到此結束 三會 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"15858","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15858","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/eeffa975d6a1e3eacb0d1d3af5c18c1c0cc1067dc387cc1f3be8d109af184be4080065e9621791e75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra 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決議同意動之提報院會。 二、審查113年度中央政府總預算案有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案及六案。 決議討論事項二、第一案令定期繼續審查。 二、第二至第六案各案均同意動之提報院會。 三、審查國際法部分條文修正草案共計十六案。"},{"start":2072.396,"end":2099.153,"text":"決議一、第四條、第五條、第六條、第七條、第九條、第二十條均照行政院提案通過。二、第二條、第十九條不予修正維持現行條文。三、委員羅美玲等18人提案委員陳培宇等18人提案增訂第六條之一不予增訂。四、本次會議審查通過這條文及相關法制用語授權主席及議事人員整理。五、並按審查完具擬具審查報告提報院會討論不需交由黨團寫上並推起無召集委員起名於院會討論時作補充說明。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":2100.624,"end":2106.95,"text":"請問各位委員上次會議的議會議事錄有沒有錯誤或遺漏的地方?好 謝謝議事錄確定我們繼續進行討論事項請宣讀"},{"start":2112.967,"end":2129.75,"text":"案。 一、新住民權益保障法及新住民基本法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具新住民權益保障法草案。 審查台灣民眾黨黨團委員張智倫等18人國民黨黨團及委員蘇巧慧等26人分別擬具新住民基本法草案案。"},{"start":2131.175,"end":2156.55,"text":"二、繼續審查委員鄭天才等20人擬具原住民族基本法徵定第20條之一條文草案案。 宣讀完畢本人議程所討論的事項我們是合併詢答我們現在介紹在場委員還有列席的官員我們首先介紹蘇巧慧委員繼續介紹李博義委員羅美玲委員"},{"start":2158.75,"end":2186.991,"text":"馬玉珍委員劉巡庭委員我們繼續來介紹一下與會的官員內政部我們花敬群政務次長移民署鍾景坤署長入出國事務組林怡俊組長移民事務組黃玲玉組長"},{"start":2189.408,"end":2211.981,"text":"國際執行法事務組張文秀組長移民資訊組黃耀良組長人事室嚴昭儀主任北區事務大隊吳嘉鴻大隊長國境事務大隊林哲謙大隊長民政司檢預經檢認視察"},{"start":2215.543,"end":2240.379,"text":"中教級理智師唐耕生專門委員國土管理署駐在發展組張瓊苑兼任政工程師警政署甘延明副組長地政司何振達專門委員原住民組委員會政務副組委古仲格勒凡"},{"start":2243.732,"end":2247.714,"text":"大陸委員會法證處周明瑞處長港澳蒙藏處李敬梅組長行政院外交國防法務處陳永志副處長"},{"start":2274.485,"end":2287.154,"text":"教育部中生教育師李玉堅師長高等教育師周宏偉專門委員師資培育及藝術教育師劉鳳雲專門委員國民及學前教育署特教組李晶晶專門委員衛生福利部社會保險師陳真惠副師長"},{"start":2303.194,"end":2324.167,"text":"社會救助及社公司陳怡如科長社會及家庭署陳昭帆科長勞動部勞動力發展署鍾景濟副署長農業部農村發展及水土保持署鍾啟榮組長漁業署謝順雄科長"},{"start":2331.583,"end":2356.746,"text":"經濟部投資促進司陳文成經濟參事投資審議司蔡忠吉專門委員國際貿易署梁家裕檢任秘書商業發展署熊立恆副署長外交部條約法律司黃仁良專門委員"},{"start":2359.734,"end":2379.991,"text":"領事事務局簽證主陳冠廷科長文化部綜合規劃司嚴榮鑫副司長交通部交通產業發展及國際事務司林茂雄副司長司法院司法行政廳高裕順廳長法務部廖江憲參事"},{"start":2386.972,"end":2414.528,"text":"財政部國產署侯瓊林科長負稅署花怡芳科長國家發展委員會社會發展處謝偉智專務委員人力發展處黃淑婷科長考選部考選規劃司蔡寶珠副司長國家通訊傳播委員會電台與內容事務處林惠玲處長"},{"start":2417.208,"end":2438.477,"text":"數位發展部資源管理師曾文芳副司長行政院人事行政總署主編人力處張雅惠專門委員行政院主計總署公務預算處邱碧珠專門委員基金預算處江衍生科長"},{"start":2440.185,"end":2441.106,"text":"張智倫委員黃潔委員"},{"start":2470.575,"end":2470.996,"text":"請蘇巧慧委員提案說明"},{"start":2488.054,"end":2511.15,"text":"隨著全球化浪潮及社會結構轉變的趨勢移民現象已經越來越普遍移民目的也日漸多元使得我國新住民人口隨之增加以內政部現行對新住民之定義國人之非本國籍配合人數已經將近60萬若再加上第二代子女約50萬新住民家庭人口總數已經突破100萬人是我國邁入多元文化及移民社會的重要力量"},{"start":2511.971,"end":2529.034,"text":"為本席認為新住民應不限於婚姻移民應包含依國際法規劃取得我國國籍者以及應該包含應工作投資等目的而移居台灣籍人才新住民及其子女遍佈社會各角落早已成為我國不可或缺的重要力量"},{"start":2529.474,"end":2547.112,"text":"就普遍面對與人格合、文化差異及生活適應的條件。會落實有國憲法《徵求條文》第10條第11項之規定國家肯定多元文化之意旨進一步達到人人在法律上一律平等且應受法律平等保護之目的所以我特別提出以《新住民基本法草案》就"},{"start":2547.552,"end":2570.437,"text":"新住民之生活適應、就學就業、衛生醫療、文化發展以及社會救助等面向制定相關條文,以保障新住民基本權益,促進我國成為多元文化與人共存共融之祥和社會。以上說明,其能獲得各位委員的支持。謝謝。好,非常謝謝喬惠委員的這個提案說明。繼續我們請國民黨團的代表,牛徐廷委員提案說明。"},{"start":2586.937,"end":2599.008,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委"},{"start":2607.395,"end":2622.449,"text":"在全球全化的氣勢下,國際移民的規模日越廣大,各國的移民比例一直在提升,而我國的新住民人數即將突破60萬人。他們為台灣社會帶來了多元文化,"},{"start":2626.873,"end":2651.445,"text":"案。 使我國的經濟、教育、文化等各方面都有更多元且創新的發展。同時,我們也必須要保障新住民在我國的法律、地位以及正是新住民在台生活面臨所認定的困境。新住民在台灣社會重要的一份子。"},{"start":2652.523,"end":2675.593,"text":"但一直以來都牽扯正式法院來明定新住民法律地位而且中央也沒有一個統籌新住民事務專責機構所以新住民的業務落在各部會這樣要如何讓新住民權利義務受到全面的保障"},{"start":2676.993,"end":2698.207,"text":"案。 依據院政部移民署在107年新住民生活需求調查報告也指出新住民生活照顧服務需要中設立新住民專責服務機構是高居第二名,代表很多在台灣的新住民也期待著有一個專責機構來整合各方面的資源來統籌規劃新住民相關的政策。"},{"start":2706.673,"end":2709.515,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":2723.366,"end":2740.093,"text":"案。 全面保障新住民的教育、文化、醫療、就業等各方面的平等機會,並加強對新住民文化、教育和語言支持,以足新住民與台灣社會的融合,直達真正的"},{"start":2740.993,"end":2762.615,"text":"案。 彼此包容、接納不同,因此我誠懇呼喚各個委員能夠共同支持新住民基本法草案在不分黨派、集合共識之下,讓法案順利通過,共創一個更加公正、平等、和諧和共榮社會。"},{"start":2764.174,"end":2764.354,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":2774.634,"end":2796.896,"text":"謝謝主席今天代表國民黨團針對新住民基本法進行提案說明第一根據內政部今年3月最新統計我國新住民人數已達59萬5千人若再加上新住民子女47萬人家庭人口數即將突破100萬人新住民來台落地生根積極融入台灣社會已經成為我國不可或缺的新力量"},{"start":2797.617,"end":2814.343,"text":"第二、新住民因為語言、文化隔閡等因素加上新住民事務工作目前散落在各部會以至於生活適應上遭遇困難甚至求助無門因此我們需要一個可以整合跨部會資源的專責機關提供新住民家庭更完善的權益保障"},{"start":2815.143,"end":2836.114,"text":"第三、106年監察院研究報告有提到婚姻移民政策之規劃已推動涉及中央各部會之間業務權責及橫向協調合作但現有的新住民事務協調匯報顯然功能相對有限協調整合以及督導往往流於形式因此我們建議政府研議制定專法"},{"start":2837.054,"end":2858.616,"text":"同年本院內政委員會召開《新住民基本法草案公聽會》內政部書面報告更提到正在收集先進國家立法及執行方式審慎研議最佳的立法內容但6年多來行政院依然沒有提出版本讓新住民權益的保障牛步不前我想是蠻遺憾的"},{"start":2860.217,"end":2882.893,"text":"最後國民黨團希望藉由新住民基本法落實憲法平等權的原則並且要求行政院設置新住民事務委員會統籌相關事務明定新住民發展基金法律依據以及基金來源以維持財源穩定此外我們也要求政府設置新住民文化重點發展區推動新住民文化產業發展加速新住民融入我國社會懇請朝野"},{"start":2884.554,"end":2890.436,"text":"案。 立委共同支持,我們一起競速達成多元融合賠利,提升國家競爭力的總體發展目標。"},{"start":2908.368,"end":2924.624,"text":"主席好各位委員各位官員大家早安大家好那今天是新住民基本法草案的提案那隨著時代的演進我們的社會變得越來越多元一個非常顯而易見台灣社會的改變就是新住民族的興起"},{"start":2925.385,"end":2953.22,"text":"案。 剛剛非常多委員有提到現在新住民的人口已經內政部統計已經將近60萬人所以是一個不能忽視的聲音那在本席的選區在新北市中和區我們有非常一條非常著名的華新街也是知名的緬甸街每年都會辦非常有意義的點燈節跟潑水節讓我們所有台灣以及我們的新住民都帶來的鄉親平安那所以我們認為這新住民在過去這個舉"},{"start":2954.241,"end":2955.022,"text":"案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":2977.297,"end":2994.486,"text":"種族階級黨派在法律前一律平等以及剛剛我特別提到的憲法徵修條文第10條基本國策的部分以及第11條前段就是我們國家肯定多元文化發展等等的規定"},{"start":2996.187,"end":3012.806,"text":"讓我們憲法來促進族群平等以及人民權利的規範讓我們台灣促進多元的文化所以今天本席提出了新住民基本法來確保新住民在台灣的社會可以提到充分的保護以及尊重"},{"start":3013.166,"end":3040.498,"text":"案。 以及我們關心新住民的生活需求提供他們必要的資源以及幫助那最後我們可以讓我們不同的文化來做交流以及理解所以我想今天建立新住民法不僅是可以保障新住民的權利更可以推動我國的發展所以希望我們今天不分黨派不分彼此用更"},{"start":3042.759,"end":3067.53,"text":"更開放的態度來針對今天的修法一起共同來努力一起來實現多元文化共榮建立一個更協和更繁榮的社會所以今天還是要拜託我們的討論希望未來我們行政院新住民法的版本盡快提出以及新住民基本法盡快通過以及我們未來能推動新住民委員會給所有新住民一個更安居樂業的生活以上謝謝"},{"start":3068.649,"end":3068.789,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":3094.901,"end":3115.083,"text":"主席、各位委員先進大家好感謝各位委員對於新住民業務的關心和指導今天各位委員會召開審查《新住民基本法草案》及《新住民權益保障法草案》共五個版本本部應要報告列席備感榮幸現況截至今年3月底我國婚姻移民及新住民子女人數已逾百萬成為國家重要的人力資源"},{"start":3115.663,"end":3130.213,"text":"為完備對新住民的照顧服務本部整合中央地方民間團體力量推動各項措施則要說明如下第一則訂新住民照顧服務措施本部自92年已訂定新住民照顧服務措施結合中央地方機關民間團體等"},{"start":3132.115,"end":3156.876,"text":"案,適應讓新住民能夠在生活適應醫療、保健、就業權益等8項服務措施並辦理公告與網站。第二,設置新住民發展基金。自94年編列3萬,然後105年更名為新住民發展基金,規模維持每年10億元。基金規模的4大業務面向補助地方和民間團體,落實推動新住民照顧,"},{"start":3158.157,"end":3186.713,"text":"105年至112年合併補助1774件,27億6600餘萬。第三,成立行政院新住民事務協調匯報。行政院在104年6月成立新住民事務協調匯報擬定並統整各項跨部會新住民及子女照顧服務政策如基金轉型、建立統一制度精進事辦計劃、支援南向政策培育新住民多餘人才等。第四,培育新住民及子女。"},{"start":3188.098,"end":3207.825,"text":"陪例新住民子女發揮多元文化優勢令來辦理的多項計劃和活動包含了第一新住民及子女海外陪例計劃新住民及子女築夢計劃新住民及子女陪例及獎助學金計劃新住民子女國內培育員吸引多元文化人才培訓計劃等第五"},{"start":3210.706,"end":3238.915,"text":"案。 辦理出入境關懷及家庭教育新住民入國後至移民署申請居留時提供一對一的關懷訪談並鼓勵新住民及家人共同參加家庭教育活動。第六推動變民行動服務列車移民署各服務站結合相關機關赴偏遠地區宣導服務措施並提供辦理居留延期法令諮詢變更居住地等服務。"},{"start":3239.835,"end":3253.708,"text":"第七設置外來人事在台諮詢服務熱線1990諮詢項目包括居留、就業、健保、人身安全、社會福利等資訊並可及時進行三方通話解決在台問題"},{"start":3255.53,"end":3270.888,"text":"建制新住民培力發展資訊網建制一善事的新住民培力發展資訊網作為各部會地方政府所提供新住民相關課程、活動等資訊平台以利新住民快速了解政府各項措施和服務"},{"start":3272.45,"end":3292.248,"text":"關於委員及各黨團版本的提案大院委員關心新住民議題包含羅美玲委員等22人提出新住民權益保障法草案民眾黨黨團張智倫委員等18人國民黨黨團及蘇曉慧委員等26人所提新住民基本法草案本部說明重點如下"},{"start":3294.453,"end":3314.579,"text":"第一有關新住民的定義五個版本草案所定義的新住民均包含了婚姻移民、外籍生、外國專業人士規劃為我國國民者民眾黨黨團、張智倫委員及國民黨黨團等草案則包含了新住民子女另外新住民子女及涉及後之新住民其身份為國人"},{"start":3316.179,"end":3335.582,"text":"權利義務均與國人無異如再訂專法恐有資源重置又盛開五個版本草案均包含外籍生但依照國際間的慣例並未將外籍生視為移民此外外籍移工有居留年限的限制且權利義務有別於一般外國人"},{"start":3336.663,"end":3358.305,"text":"為使適用對象明確合理,新住民定義建議以婚姻、就業含中階人士及投資移民為主,並限定應符合入境一定期間。關於設置專責機構,有關中央設置專責機構、地方政府設置單一窗口或行政局、涉及行政院組織法、中央政府機關源額法、中央行政機關組織法、預算編列等,"},{"start":3360.707,"end":3386.761,"text":"並牽涉中央及地方權責且地方政府、轄內新住民人數和一縣市人數和特性都有所差異以聽取地方政府之意見。關於新住民文化重點發展區新住民非單一來源國語言及文化均不同且未居住特定區域設置新住民文化重點發展區其目的、用途、做法尚待釐清並規劃專責機關設立前"},{"start":3389.983,"end":3405.415,"text":"由移民署辦理恐非適當有關新住民相關調查本部自92年起每5年辦理新住民生活需求調查作為各級政府推動新住民各項照顧服務及制定相關服務政策的參考"},{"start":3406.896,"end":3423.873,"text":"有關鼓勵多元化交流新住民語言非國家語言可鼓勵國人學習新住民母語自辦理該國母語認證恐不符國際慣例有關工作權的保障新住民獲准在台居留即可工作其勞動權益與我國國民相同"},{"start":3424.634,"end":3432.557,"text":"案。至於職場諮商系僱主提供員工協助方案的事項、尚非就業服務內容,用新住民成為國人後即可報考專門技術人員。"},{"start":3445.819,"end":3456.41,"text":"我們當然感謝委員對於新住民的關注那對於這議題其實行政院各部會都已經有非常多的配套措施在做既然有配套措施為什麼沒有行政院版本"},{"start":3457.818,"end":3466.249,"text":"現階段新住民的核心議題各位委員關注的可能會在哪些地方?其他單位的報告請委員自行參閱並刊登公報。"},{"start":3476.281,"end":3503.674,"text":"現在我們進行詢答委員質詢前我們按照案例做以下幾點的宣告第一本會委員會的發言時間是4分鐘不要的時候我們延長2分鐘非本會委員發言的時間是4分鐘上午10點半我們截止發言登記因為今日的會議處理法案所以我們就不處理臨時提案了請問各位委員有沒有意見好 謝謝我們現在請登記第一位的書巧會委員來質詢"},{"start":3512.625,"end":3541.827,"text":"好 謝謝主席我們請花次長請花次長 謝謝蘇委員長次長好次長今天的這個新住民保障權益的部分我自己也有提出我的版本新住民的基本法那我想所有的委員提出的版本甚至包括各黨團態度都一樣就是保障新住民權益讓這個大家能夠更清楚國家更知道資源要怎麼配置這個都沒有問題那可是剛剛"},{"start":3542.868,"end":3565.266,"text":"一方面是我的版本提出之後內政部有來溝通的就是我們有一些討論的同時跟您請教過然後呢不是到辦公室免得等一下各位說什麼等一下說什麼大小也沒有是我跟您請教然後呢你剛剛也真的有說了非常多的點了之後我確實有看到雖然我們"},{"start":3566.147,"end":3567.348,"text":"案。 審查委員"},{"start":3582.737,"end":3607.341,"text":"然後他適用的對象到底是誰我覺得這個對象一定要能夠確定清楚之後我們後面在談的權益範圍要擴張到什麼程度其實才有辦法真正的落實這是我們在討論過後我自己雖然提出版本之後在經過細部就這個細究之後也開始看到這樣的問題首先那我就問你嘛"},{"start":3607.941,"end":3626.216,"text":"以現行法條來講的話,那次長你知道我們的現行法條當中有哪幾個法條講到了新住民這三個字,對新住民有定義目前其實只有基金這個地方才會有,相關的法律裡面並不存在新住民三個字"},{"start":3627.657,"end":3654.497,"text":"其實還有另外一個教育部教育部他在新住民就讀大學辦法裡面也有偏查所有現行法規就這兩個有講到新住民三個字但是他的定義上面其實並沒有很清楚但有直接說指涉的適用範圍就有點剛剛說內政部的這個新住民發展基金的部分他是指外籍中國港澳配偶及其子女那教育部的直接是規劃者"},{"start":3655.017,"end":3681.867,"text":"好 那如果看到我們各委員的版本哇 那就不一樣了有包含這個婚姻關係進來的配偶也有投資工作的移民也有他們的子女甚至有包括是就學的或者是移工那這個範圍到底到哪裡市長 你有沒有心中有沒有一個輪廓簡單我剛剛在書面報告或者口頭報告大概都提到是以婚姻就業和投資移民可能會是比較恰當的範疇"},{"start":3682.927,"end":3686.95,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。"},{"start":3712.651,"end":3712.931,"text":"案。 審查委員"},{"start":3733.437,"end":3760.914,"text":"是跟我們完全一樣既沒有語言隔閡也沒有文化差異的時候那這個保障還應該給予存在嗎這就是我在想說如果到新二代所謂奇籍子女的時候我們到底要到什麼狀況因為像原住民的話其實我們是因為血統的關係還有認同的關係其實是可以一代又一代下去但如果新住民的保障當時是為了融入社會的這個GAP要把它擬平這個"},{"start":3762.235,"end":3770.263,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":3786.718,"end":3787.339,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":3802.439,"end":3827.378,"text":"新加入台灣這個大家庭的有困難的人我們都要保障他嗎那這樣子我們的設計方法就會不太一樣那反過來如果是他已經到位的時候那這要怎麼停住所以我想今天我就藉著我這個第一日質詢也跟您討論也跟各位在場的委員分享我在研讀這部法律之後我認為其實我們就"},{"start":3829.72,"end":3856.442,"text":"所謂新加入台灣這個大家庭的各個人不管他是工作的或者是投資的或者是婚姻的我們確實都應該要給予保障那我們今天也是希望做這件事情所以後面大家寫的都大同小異在權力的配置甚至要設立專責機關我的版本也是如此啦但我覺得我們今天應該要最先處理的是目的"},{"start":3857.122,"end":3879.21,"text":"案和對象。我覺得只有這兩點處理完成之後,我們這步法才有辦法走下去。這是我的看法,不曉得次長你覺得如何?我謝謝委員講得非常非常清楚。其實意思也就是說,台灣對新住民的這個協助照顧,其實已經有非常多的資源的投入。那他一旦變成國人,其實他又等同享有國人的資格。"},{"start":3879.99,"end":3908,"text":"案。 此外其實我們對於新住民子女因為說他可能母親可能是來自於例如說東南亞所以他對於他的賠利甚至他未來的發展的機會我們還比一般對國人子女的照顧還有他另外發展的新的想像所以其實是多元在照顧的好我想今天大家都會有很多的問題我就不佔用時間不過我給市長一個小提醒就好了我知道我們已經做了很多不過我覺得這句話等一下可以不用一直說我覺得我們可以做更多"},{"start":3909.8,"end":3909.98,"text":"蔣麗芸議員蔣麗芸議員"},{"start":3941.015,"end":3953.833,"text":"本席看了移民署的報告請問次長瞭解新住民來台灣後主要的困難在哪裡其實當然適應和語言隔閡我覺得當然是一個最核心的部分"},{"start":3954.793,"end":3959.877,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":3977.25,"end":3990.9,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。"},{"start":4007.009,"end":4031.495,"text":"我講我們絕對是盡全力再來協助所以剛才我們蘇小慧委員說就是做很好盡全力但是達到的目的在哪裡剛才你有報告說你有做了很多培訓培訓就是變成我們新住民跟新二代就變成你們的內政部跟移民署的專業學生所以沒有發展的平台絕對不會是這樣他就是我們的國人他就是我們的中華民國國民"},{"start":4032.495,"end":4032.855,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":4051.08,"end":4076.658,"text":"任何人都有各式各樣的問題,沒有任何一個人是沒有問題的。新住民所就是來我們就是問題很多元,但是如果是因為婚姻不對等導致就是家暴,有很多就是因為家暴後出去外面住了,但是要在規劃國籍的時候,我們要去申請戶籍成本。"},{"start":4077.578,"end":4094.653,"text":"是要先生同意的先生沒有同意的話先生是申請我們申請不到導致就是夫妻不對等新住民在台灣這樣子繼續受到家暴又沒辦法有其他的權利你覺得這樣子是我們的各個部會夠了嗎"},{"start":4096.915,"end":4100.677,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第11屆第2會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第"},{"start":4117.268,"end":4124.531,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件"},{"start":4139.954,"end":4168.758,"text":"雖然是說語言還有文化的差異在職場上也容易受到就是工作的歧視所以找工作啊面臨也很多的問題所以我們只要需要說一個就是問保的新台灣人但是呢在我們的子女的差異剛才就是說我們希望就是我們新住民基本法就是保障剛來的新住民但是有拿到身份證的都是不需要照顧了這個是不對的"},{"start":4169.618,"end":4170.399,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":4186.909,"end":4201.731,"text":"從我們上一個會期我們有說新二代要規劃國籍就是要18歲以下但是沒有規劃國籍這個也是要幫助的嘛新二代不用18歲啊他生出來就是中華民國國民"},{"start":4203.513,"end":4211.22,"text":"當時規劃台灣國籍就是在國外的新二代所以這群也是我們要照顧的所以為什麼要納入在裡面是我們的考慮的是照顧的需要照顧的人不是說20歲以後我們還要照顧但是我們的這個部分我們在研議所以我們需要就是說現在的責任機構已經是完善但是呢照顧不完美所以我們希望說"},{"start":4230.816,"end":4240.402,"text":"案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案 案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案 案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案 案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案 案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案 案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案 案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保"},{"start":4257.372,"end":4268,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案"},{"start":4277.728,"end":4280.429,"text":"新住民將近60萬人新二代也大概50萬人移工80萬人還有就是我們境外學生有10萬人所以我們希望這個基本法希望說在台灣有一個就是需要一個單一窗口"},{"start":4296.237,"end":4320.087,"text":"來去幫助政府來協助我們幫助這群在國外的人來台灣因為我們政府很多的部門變成資源分散栽培人才沒有給予機會還有台灣沒有一個統籌新住民的單位所以我們現在各個黨部各提出這樣子的需求就是要希望有一個單位一個單一的窗口來去"},{"start":4324.189,"end":4328.373,"text":"服務這樣的部分的話就減少社會問題也減少很多的資源我們應用這個資源不是大撒逼每個單位我都給錢到最後沒有辦好就是政治需求誰什麼人來申請我就把他撒出去就是我的業務有做好這樣的話因為我看到太多是這樣子了所以我們希望有一個專職的機構有一個單位有一個基本法來去服務"},{"start":4352.553,"end":4365.866,"text":"我們要栽培要給一機會給大家去發揮給大家去幫助到我們的在台灣剛來的人這個才是真正我們今天要提出來需要的不是說我們有這個部會這邊有錢這邊辦這邊辦到最後我做很多但是到最後都是我們變成專業學生沒有一個真正的照顧到"},{"start":4376.331,"end":4392.945,"text":"所以希望大家重視這個問題謝謝我們的次長因為今天來你都講的都是我們做了很多但是沒有效果以上報告好 謝謝我們麥玉珍委員接下來我們請高金素梅委員發言"},{"start":4398.812,"end":4411.797,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。"},{"start":4428.124,"end":4456.838,"text":"實際上我先說在2019年的時候蔡總統非常的重視這個新住民所以呢他特別用六種語言向新住民尋求支持然後呢我們也可以看到他的人數根據我們的內政部、移民署、教育部、勞動部統計我們的外籍配偶有59萬3千餘人大專院校境外生大概10萬3千多人"},{"start":4457.498,"end":4481.281,"text":"外國專業人員5萬4千多人,一共75萬6千餘人,總數151萬人。可以看到這151萬人就是我們所有的政治人物或政黨很想要吸取的人數。所以在2019年的時候,蔡英文總統為了要競選連任,所以她推出廣告用6種語言。"},{"start":4482.702,"end":4494.475,"text":"案。 向我們的新住民尋求支持。玉珍委員在這邊質詢的時候也曾經講過。請問一下蔡政府任內已經不到一個月了。你給蔡政府對新住民的政策總體打幾分?"},{"start":4496.297,"end":4496.437,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":4513.351,"end":4536.903,"text":"除了各部會的相關資源之外,我們另外又額外加了11,就像說新住民升級住民補貼、社會住宅,我另外也會給。因為就是非常的不滿足,所以今天那麼多委員,包括民眾黨、包括國民黨,才會提出新住民基本法案。"},{"start":4537.703,"end":4541.904,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":4566.208,"end":4566.328,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":4570.424,"end":4575.405,"text":"我想這就需要大家再多給我們一些訪問。我們內部當然有做一些討論,政府非常多的掌握,但是有沒有嚴重到需要去修正呢?我們當然持續滾動在檢討當中啊。我的質詢一向是非常的理性,所以你認為有沒有繼續改善的空間?"},{"start":4600.95,"end":4628.988,"text":"根據我們可以看到我就講幾個新住民培力發展資訊網和新住民的數位資訊網有六種語言版本可是移民署你們最重要你們的網站幾乎是國際平台你們的新住民發展基金平台申請表格和說明文件只有中文需不要改進所以語言的部分你們非常的不友善啊光是講語言的部分你就非常的不友善啊"},{"start":4630.307,"end":4650.533,"text":"是不是需要改進?移民署的代表有沒有來?對啊,你為什麼不說話呢?不要浪費我的時間,你們的申請表跟說明文件只有中文,你們覺得是不是需要按照蔡總統要有六種語言?"},{"start":4651.573,"end":4660.623,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件"},{"start":4672.984,"end":4689.941,"text":"我再請問市長如果中文聽不懂的新住民這個時候此時此刻立法院正在直播我請問一下我們正在討論他們的權益你認為他們會聽得懂嗎?所以在語言的環境上是不是我們需要再加強努力呢?"},{"start":4691.167,"end":4710.058,"text":"當然是,如果說能夠多一點傳遞當然更好。我們聽一下最關心人權的人權委員會他們是怎麼說的他在去年說消除一切形式種族歧視國際公約國家報告中國家人權委員會特別針對我們的政府對於新住民的施政"},{"start":4710.538,"end":4738.585,"text":"提出的批評有幾點?第一個,不是我講的喔這是國家人權委員會他的書面說的他說在通譯制度上我們的政府沒有積極推動和建制符合新住民需求的通譯服務第二個,在境外結婚的面談的政策上面哪些國家人民會被要求面談沒有明確的衡量標準這導致新住民不知所措"},{"start":4740.065,"end":4766.392,"text":"新住民遭受種族歧視內政部申訴審議小組的申訴管道的資訊非常不明確也沒有提供多國的語言這等於政府帶頭再一次的歧視新住民而我會這麼樣的關注新住民的權益我在今天還特別排了新住民基本法的審查是因為原住民族跟新住民是一樣的"},{"start":4767.892,"end":4788.766,"text":"當時我們的政府在選前的時候非常重視然後選後了之後就拋棄了族群所以花次長還有署長在這裡真的提醒你們因為你們做不好包括國家人權委員會都已經告訴你們有那麼多的改進的地方你們還不虛心檢討嗎更何況今天沒有行政院版本"},{"start":4795.404,"end":4823.495,"text":"我們其實關於剛委員提到的同意制度其實在去年12月21號已經核定新的經濟方案其實也做了非常多那當然境外面談基本上是外交部在執行這個部分當然內政部不便多說啦那你覺得身為一個政府是不是橫向聯繫都要把這些都提出來講呢這才是政府政府是一體的不要告訴我你內政部有內政部工作然後教育部有教育部移民署有移民署我們絕對不會逃避問題啊"},{"start":4824.996,"end":4834.065,"text":"絕對不會逃避問題蔡政府剩下最後一個月了請問你們如何逃避2019年蔡英文總統曾經承諾我們的新住民過"},{"start":4836.742,"end":4847.75,"text":"這幾年來其實一直都在努力、都在精進,其實我們態度從來都沒有那麼努力的。如果今天有精進努力,代表新住民的立法委員、蔓越真委員都不會想要提出我們來援助新住民的基本法。那你認為應該怎麼樣才重視?那你認為應該怎麼樣才重視?如果說有看到問題,提出問題,我們解決問題,這才是重要的。好,你現在看到什麼問題了?"},{"start":4860.029,"end":4869.101,"text":"我想委員要來提這個版本你一定有什麼重要的問題需要政府來提那你認為今天你要來這裡要處理新住民的基本法你認為有什麼問題"},{"start":4871.259,"end":4885.205,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案案件,是用立法的方式還是用核心問題的處理方式?」審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案件,是用立法的方式還是用核心問題的處理方式?」審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案件,是用立法的方式還是用核心問題的處理方式?」審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案件,是用立法的方式還是用核心問題的處理方式?」審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案件,是用立法的方式還是用核心"},{"start":4902.12,"end":4930.432,"text":"下一位我們請張宏祿委員好 謝謝張宏祿委員我請次長跟署長有請次長跟署長 謝謝張委員好來 次長其實今天很多委員提了很多相關新住民權益的法案"},{"start":4932.011,"end":4946.108,"text":"我有基本法有權益保障法案其實我想先請教一個問題就是說我們有沒有必要來訂定這個相關於對於新住民的專法"},{"start":4947.352,"end":4951.878,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 與新住民權益保障法草案案件 與新住民權益保障法草案案件 與新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":4970.563,"end":4979.096,"text":"我們所有現行的相關法案裡面對新住民的權利、新住民的權利、新住民的該所作我們有沒有都規範到了"},{"start":4980.449,"end":5006.869,"text":"我想各部會在不管從教育文化上就業生活等等面向其實就以國人的角度該做的其實都有做但是我當然知道因為新住民有各種他的語言他的生活適應甚至還有一些個人部分國人的歧視等等而導致了一些困難那這些事情不足那我們把問題點找出來其實該怎麼樣來精進我們都會來努力"},{"start":5009.271,"end":5016.842,"text":"市長說的都沒有錯啦齁但好我簡單問一個問題嘛齁新住民要不要包括移工"},{"start":5017.927,"end":5035.652,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草"},{"start":5049.65,"end":5058.245,"text":"很多的新住民其實嫁來台灣他的另一半年紀都比他大很多是不是這樣呢 署長你們的統計"},{"start":5065.049,"end":5072.671,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":5090.25,"end":5116.276,"text":"大約19萬人新住民本身已經超過50歲了那很多他的另一半已經不在了已經不在了那他就面臨的一個問題囉長照的問題來囉對不對長照的問題就來囉我跟你講而且有些新住民他雖然有資格"},{"start":5117.458,"end":5140.651,"text":"可以規劃但他不申請規劃因為他可能原國籍的地方福利也不錯或什麼等等也不錯那再來有一個問題就是說來我簡單舉一個好了我們現在低收入戶的補助等等的新住民在他原國籍他的父母親或什麼有財產也列入也列入"},{"start":5145.669,"end":5164.406,"text":"這一點要不要檢討?這個部分的確是在檢討當中,我們也跟衛福提出這個問題。在檢討當中,所以你也認為要檢討嘛?對不對?他有可能很多原因,那他在原國籍他們家庭的財產也列入,我相信"},{"start":5166.438,"end":5189.769,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案"},{"start":5192.952,"end":5210.805,"text":"他要回去他也不可能嘛 對不對所以造成了很多的這個問題就舉一個這個簡單的例子我們就是要去把它解決嘛所以今天才有這麼多委員提出了這個雖然我們既有的法令都可以規範到也可以幫忙到他們"},{"start":5212.881,"end":5227.797,"text":"就是有不足的地方所以今天大家才會這樣那再來我們原住民我們的客家人齁我們都有齁這個比如說長照的機構原住民有文件站客家人有博工站"},{"start":5228.698,"end":5229.598,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民要去哪裡?」審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民要去哪裡?」"},{"start":5244.085,"end":5247.687,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":5262.075,"end":5280.121,"text":"委員這樣提醒我覺得我們確實可以好好做一個新住民生活困難的一些調查啦齁那這部分我們來努力齁我們來努力那如果調查完發現真的有問題的地方我們積極跨部會來處理甚至納入行政院的新住民事務協調匯報我們就請院裡面列管就來執行對"},{"start":5281.801,"end":5295.869,"text":"市長我要的重點就是這裡啦相關法令其實也都有但是相關法律現在執行起來就是有很多問題發生嘛所以才會有很多委員關心嘛這個我們就是要去解決啦好不好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝紅樓委員的質詢謝謝謝謝花市長您剛剛的回答比較會讓人家聽起來非常舒服一點好不好謝謝繼續我們請黃建斌委員質詢"},{"start":5317.543,"end":5320.664,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件"},{"start":5347.015,"end":5374.085,"text":"請教一下市長我們整個偵查結果我們使用我們擬具的光電組的組長林文信涉嫌關說涉嫌圖利金額於91億元這個林文信組長沒想到他還在110年獲得模範公文員想請教我們行政院如果就這個相關的這個但依據我們規定我們對被起訴的公務員"},{"start":5375.445,"end":5401.995,"text":"這些是不是可以註銷他的模範公務員的資格然後他的獎金、獎座等等這些規定有沒有這個規定應該是經濟部能源署的不是內政部的事情模範公務員的部分那應該都是行政院在這個部分抱歉我可能要了解一下我再跟您報告好嗎人事行政總署編列專門委員在吧今天"},{"start":5404.343,"end":5404.363,"text":"張專門委員"},{"start":5415.954,"end":5435.066,"text":"請到這邊來謝謝我希望今天與會的官員們因為如果委員有垂詢的部分請你們隨時要進入狀況好不好要好好聽一下委員的質詢他們今天來的質詢都是準備了很多的資料而不是覺得事不關己只讓我們的次長在這邊做回答來請說明"},{"start":5437.087,"end":5453.114,"text":"委員好那不好意思我這邊是因為是主編任立初那今天來的話是就那個專責機構的部分那因為剛剛提到公務人員模範工人我有聽到在會場我有聽到我本來是想要賴一下的那我本來想說是不是我們待會準備好了之後我可以再補充報告"},{"start":5454.014,"end":5463.923,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．新住民權益保障法草案．新住民權益保障法草案．新住民權益保障法草案．新住民權益保障法草案．新住民權益保障法草案．新住民權益保障法草案．新住民權益保障法草案．"},{"start":5482.458,"end":5500.828,"text":"市長請市長趕快來處理這件事情因為你看這個很大的統治他是模範公務員然後不久之後他就被起訴這件事情經濟部應該會去處理我們還是回到今天的修法謝謝市長"},{"start":5502.309,"end":5524.509,"text":"今天提到關於新住民權益保障法草案。多年來我們各界呼籲政府要比照,包括原民會、客委會、成立新住民委會,行政院並沒有採納,只是決議定期召開跨部會相關事務協調會議,非常可惜,不等於非常支持地方。"},{"start":5526.47,"end":5553.809,"text":"其實這個社會還是對於新住民有充滿歧視如果有到比較偏鄉的地方市場可能就會了解有時候用閩南語講起來都不是很正、不是很重視那個外國族、外國族、外國族、外國族其實這是很歧視的話台灣身為一個多元的移民社會我們當然是一個多元的社會我們是一個移民的移民城市"},{"start":5554.429,"end":5555.49,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":5582.699,"end":5598.036,"text":"OK 那這邊我再次提到就是說我們在部長你有沒有發現其實新住民其實在歧視以外還有一些他的下一代還有一些身心的狀況比如說飲食的障礙這件事情"},{"start":5600.768,"end":5626.919,"text":"跟部長報告在111年的時候我們新住民現在學生佔了28.5萬人口他已經佔了全體學生的百分之七巴仙了那因為他被歧視的關係在文化上他是有心理的障礙那這會不會反映在飲食上面那根據我們台大公衛最新研究的報告發現我們新住民的子女比起一般的青少年子女更容易產生這個飲食失序的行為那未來在飲食障礙症的這個風險會更高"},{"start":5628.8,"end":5628.88,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":5649.793,"end":5650.453,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":5665.099,"end":5690.555,"text":"將來會伴隨更多的社會問題我們要付出的社會成本會更大再次呼籲趕快結束完成新住民相關權益的法案我先用這個事實來例行最後本席想要再拜託次長讓我們回到這次0403花蓮地震的這個事情我們花蓮地震我們成立了專業小組來協助跨部會來整合協調然後來推動我們整個花蓮的復興跟重建"},{"start":5691.275,"end":5698.102,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案："},{"start":5708.513,"end":5709.294,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":5729.18,"end":5750.115,"text":"這部分可能會分階段我想花蓮因為現在主要是災區所以說我們是以災區優先處理當然我們會擴及全國所有縣市後續這些危險建築物海沙屋等等等等的需要補強需要重建當然未來會擴及到全國所有縣市好 謝謝市長也謝謝我們市長的規定 謝謝非常謝謝建兵委員的質詢謝謝市長 謝謝組長 謝謝繼續我們請牛徐廷委員質詢"},{"start":5766.419,"end":5769.226,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":5780.506,"end":5796.473,"text":"委員好 署長早安今天質詢的部分分成兩個部分來做探討第一部分我們討論一下移民政策第二部分我們再討論一下新住民基本法的正當性我們剛剛在提案說明的時候有提到移民署有統計截至今年3月全台領有政見的外籍"},{"start":5798.314,"end":5824.643,"text":"一、新住民人數59萬5千人陸、港、澳配38萬4千人外配陸配再加起來在今年馬上也要突破100萬的這個大關那今年2月的時候委員可能是家子女才會突破反正我們剛剛數字大概就反正100多萬人嘛對不對那今年2月的時候我們也做過政策的對話針對我國的移民政策來做討論"},{"start":5826.454,"end":5837.237,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3會期內政委員會第4會期內政委員會第5會期內政委員會第6會期內政委員會第7會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第9會期內政委員會第10會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第13會期內政委員會第13會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第14會期內政委員會第"},{"start":5850.481,"end":5875.923,"text":"朝向開放,那現在是開放還是保守?我想這個部分最主要是由國發會他來主導,他有一個五首長會議來主導。那和平共榮,互相尊重,文化交流,算開放還算保守?所以這就是我說的,好像什麼都講了,但是好像什麼都沒有講。請問組長,台灣適不適合移民?我們是不是一個大家很想要來這邊定居的幸福的國度?"},{"start":5877.435,"end":5890.007,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案"},{"start":5891.24,"end":5913.974,"text":"我想台灣是一個就是說我們的治安很好我們的生活環境也很好我們的這個人民也非常的友善所以你講的是生活的部分自然安全生活穩定對不對對可是我告訴你剛剛有講嘛國發會有寫一個對不對你在討論移民政策的時候都是用國發會的角度來出發國發會要的要的人才是什麼其實"},{"start":5914.794,"end":5933.929,"text":"國防會寫的報告,今天這個撰寫者科長今天也在我們的會場,說這個後疫情時代各國的經濟移民政策比較,也就是從國家發展的角度,其實我們需要的是這個專有專業技術的經濟移民啦,因為我們現在面對少子化跟高齡化的雙重衝擊,所以說用經濟移民政策來補貼我國的勞動力缺口,"},{"start":5935.911,"end":5950.414,"text":"好現在問題就來你剛剛有講說我們這邊吸引大家的地方在於就是說自然很好舒服起來還蠻舒服的對不對可是這跟產業其實沒有什麼直接的關係對不對我們可以看到各國移民政策其實大家講的也都老生常談"},{"start":5951.075,"end":5978.295,"text":"大家其實都希望用經濟移民來讓國家的這個產業發展來更加強盛好比說英國因應產業的需求STEM的專業人才新加坡一樣這個是採用科技簽證的方式來處理吸引這個高科技的人才日本希望的是金融外專的人才以及等等但實務上這些國家即便他希望是透過有一個產業經濟移民的角度實際上來說都還是不見得能夠執行到位"},{"start":5978.755,"end":5979.016,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":5992.881,"end":6009.759,"text":"台灣學生來這邊教育部是有規定在每週20小時之內是准許他們來打工的對啦 准許但是有沒有變黑工的問題變成超額勞動或者是本質上變成來勞動而不是來念書"},{"start":6011.04,"end":6030.553,"text":"應該是有的嘛 對不對這教育部也做過調查若干的個案我們今天時間有限是有的嘛 對不對好 國防部的報告講說我們面對這個雙重挑戰希望透過移民政策來解決缺口現在我就問移民署到底我們要不要用開放的移民政策來當成勞動力缺口的解方"},{"start":6031.653,"end":6051.333,"text":"政策方向在勞動力方面其實剛委員也有這個說得很清楚了就高階的部分我們其實是有這個外國人才的這個原覽雇用法那在比較低階的藍營人力的部分已經來到了76萬就檢討各產業的需求我們現在講的是移民"},{"start":6053.976,"end":6070.115,"text":"就是說你要不要乾脆例如說比照新加坡的模式新加坡的案例就是廣大廣開大門歡迎大家來直接跟全世界講說只要你是好人才都歡迎你來這叫開放的移民政策那顯然我們還沒有走到這個程度對不對但我們又沒有往這條方向走"},{"start":6071.334,"end":6081.822,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法"},{"start":6099.895,"end":6124.265,"text":"有請花次長我們今天在討論這個新住民基本法就是因為我覺得這個法案有兩個重大意義第一個叫做宣誓意義宣誓意義就是我們的法條如果有專門的法律法案去保障新住民的權益我們在剛剛花那麼多時間去談移民政策你才可以跟全世界講說我們是重視移民的"},{"start":6124.725,"end":6136.115,"text":"我們是重視新住民權益保障的國家這是這個法案的宣誓意義我們都希望說不要被歧視或怎麼樣所以宣誓意義這第一個第二個這法案也不是沒有實質意義"},{"start":6137.2,"end":6160.677,"text":"市長你是內政部是天下第一大部對不對各種業務這麼繁重我們也就13、14個對不對內政委員會我們要從這個都市計畫管到警消這個這麼多的事情要討論對不對其實在各個部門都一樣你很難啊就理論上理想中的狀態啊都是各個部門都要重視新住民的權益叫真正的平等可是實務上來說做不到這件事"},{"start":6161.357,"end":6176.784,"text":"所以不管是新住民也好、原住民也好等等在少數跟弱勢的族群我們會需要所謂的專職單位就是因為要有個專職單位把這個話語權來做提升在跨部會協調的時候它有它的份量跟重要性它的政策的比重跟關注度才會提升"},{"start":6177.364,"end":6196.34,"text":"所以這是這一部法案的實質意義它既有宣示的意義也有實質的意義其實它是有充分的正當性剛剛市長在答詢其他委員的時候講說我們要發現問題解決問題我要告訴市長發現解決問題就像我們提案說明一樣你從106年講到現在也夠了該次要有一部明確的法案要往前走了啦"},{"start":6196.96,"end":6222.427,"text":"之前提過新住民保障法這基本草案這本黨之前的立法委員林立禪委員他就講他說我們在社會倡議為了要幫新住民爭取權益我們當然要講好講滿但是講好講滿的用意是要政府提出相對問候的版本然後大家在妥協的過程中前進我就非常認同這樣的概念但是我們這樣去提之後顯然到現在連院版都沒有出來我想這是讓很多新住民好朋友是非常非常失望的"},{"start":6222.907,"end":6223.327,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":6241.252,"end":6246.696,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":6268.473,"end":6269.414,"text":"徐宇甄委員內政部花次長"},{"start":6294.813,"end":6311.01,"text":"委員長市長早我想請教教花市長就是根據您剛的報告來看目前政府的機制就注意保障新住民的各項的權益所以內政部認為不應該制定專法來保障新住民嗎"},{"start":6312.071,"end":6340.333,"text":"包委員倒不是說現在的機制足以保障然後結論叫做不需要定而是在說我們怎麼樣來做其實對新住民是比較好的我們要談的是這樣子的一個角度持續努力、持續精進是當然要的剛剛您提到這個部分因為我看你的結論的部分就是說如針對不足之處予以補強與改進較為妥適這是你們的這個部分那請問一下這個是目前內政部的立場嗎"},{"start":6341.474,"end":6363.023,"text":"我想其實我們分析看過各國的狀態因為全世界目前我們至少沒有看到任何一個國家像美國、加拿大那麼多移民的國家他們也沒有新住民基本法或新住民權益保障法這樣子的法制所以大家其實都是用行政措施各相關的部會一起努力所以我想這是我們現在看到的狀況那反過來問的就是說定了這個如果要來定這個專法"},{"start":6366.764,"end":6394.384,"text":"他實質上是幫了新住民哪些事但是會不會產生哪些副作用這個都要一併來思考是的 剛剛次長提到的就是大概是說現在世界各國並沒有這樣的一個專法出現所以你有沒有調查過就是新住民為什麼希望制定專法給予保障是不是因為現有的保障不足否則的話現有的保障如果像您剛講的這樣的話已經都足夠了新住民或是我們一些委員不會要求提出專法的版本"},{"start":6395.611,"end":6421.852,"text":"我理解委員要來協助新住民這個善意我完全理解那當然這背後就是說我們的路徑要怎麼選擇嘛一種是我剛剛其實剛剛委員在提的時候我有講那我們是不是來調查一下新住民其實在生活或各種事務底下遭遇到的困難我們再做一次完整的多一點的盤點我們再來看因為我知道好像內政部一直都有做這樣子的一個嘛就對新住民他到底他面對的困難是什麼"},{"start":6422.432,"end":6433.936,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會"},{"start":6452.302,"end":6459.37,"text":"其實新住民法草案基金的部分我們可以看到大概在去年110年跟111年撥補了5億進去112年到113年撥補4億就是希望基金規模能夠維持在10億但是我們點到考核作業這個項目可以發覺完全都沒有資料"},{"start":6473.369,"end":6490.887,"text":"請問一下,內政部是不考核新住民的發展基金如何使用嗎?還是問題太多不敢上網?不是,我想請同仁說明一下。因為時間的關係,是不是可以會後再把這個相關的資料。這個不會,我們再把資料給他,我們也趕快上網把它說明清楚。"},{"start":6491.247,"end":6515.833,"text":"還有就是針對我們再點進去看一下就是新住民的發展基金的多元文化推廣跟相關的宣導計畫我們可以看到電視網站跟影片內的這幾年來我們看到的不是三立就是民視兩家電視得標所以這個部分不曉得有什麼樣特別的意義讓都是三立跟民視得標所以可能你可以看一下我們有整理出來的這個"},{"start":6517.233,"end":6517.513,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":6532.91,"end":6533.591,"text":"新住民培率發展資訊網最新一期更新資料2023年8月8日"},{"start":6551.314,"end":6554.057,"text":"案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具"},{"start":6573.956,"end":6583.741,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第11屆第2會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第"},{"start":6595.506,"end":6621.233,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案件,本席就認為因為沒有落實這六步人權的國內法化,才會有制定新住民基本法的呼聲出現。那既然沒有做到的部分,你們有改進嗎?還有上個禮拜,4月12日我們才針對ISER有一個國際審查會議,就是我們目前台灣的這些作為是不是都有符合國際公約,那這次審查的結果是如何?有沒有需要改進的地方?"},{"start":6621.513,"end":6642.777,"text":"審查委員這部分行政院都會列管那各部會針對符合這六大公約相關的法律都在盤點那進一步的資料如果需要的話我們再整理一下請次長再移分給本市辦公室因為目前看起來我們其實有很多地方是沒有做到的包括說我們這邊提到的就是在ISAC的這個條約的專要文件第36頁143條指出按照兩岸的條例"},{"start":6648.019,"end":6675.158,"text":"政府長期關注中國大陸配偶需求並致力提升其權益但是國家人權委員會針對這份報告的平行回覆卻指出放寬新住民在台拘留規定時需並同考量台灣地區、大陸地區人民關係條例的大陸港澳新住民的在台定居跟拘留相關規定以符合ISR平等不歧視的精神所以說我們現在有做到這樣嗎?"},{"start":6676.72,"end":6686.849,"text":"這題大家討論了很多因為入港澳跟外籍的規定有不同但是站在人權平權的立場我們還是希望針對國家人權委員會提出"},{"start":6693.155,"end":6722.775,"text":"而且在109年6月底的兩公約國家報告當時的蘇貞昌前院長還特別發表這份報告就指到說未來我們的兩公約國家報告第239點強調大陸配合來台取得身份證的年限調整為與外籍配合一致以凝聚兩岸關係條例第17條的修正草案上代立法院完成立法程序"},{"start":6723.537,"end":6726.365,"text":"那目前都還沒有送到立法院來是嗎?"},{"start":6729.671,"end":6741.76,"text":"這個我們可以跟陸委會再來做溝通對 因為這個是記載你們的國家報告我覺得應該是要對社會國際負責應該要盡快的來送立法院謝謝委員關心 謝謝好 謝謝余政委員的質詢謝謝組長 謝謝組長 謝謝繼續我們請美惠委員國主委來質詢謝謝我們在這個李博義委員質詢結束我們休息五分鐘好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":6757.378,"end":6784.327,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第12屆第1會期內政委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第12會期內政委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第12會期內政委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第12會期內政委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法"},{"start":6785.438,"end":6808.724,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案件,審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件,審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件,審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件,審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件,審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件,審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案"},{"start":6813.547,"end":6814.648,"text":"有65%是來自中國的,對不對?"},{"start":6814.648,"end":6832.485,"text":"是。審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具有65%是來自台灣的。審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具有65%是來自台灣的。審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具有65%是來自台灣的。審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具有65%是來自台灣的。審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具有65%是來自台灣的。審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具有65%是來自台灣的。審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具有65%是來自台灣的。審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具有65%是來自台灣的。審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具有65%是"},{"start":6837.908,"end":6849.755,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會議．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會議．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會議．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會議．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會議．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會議．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會議．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會議．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會議．立法院第11屆第1會期內"},{"start":6861.906,"end":6890.626,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。"},{"start":6892.065,"end":6895.33,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。"},{"start":6908.879,"end":6928.315,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件"},{"start":6937.854,"end":6960.374,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。"},{"start":6961.328,"end":6982.203,"text":"其實倒沒有說特別嚴或特別寬而是兩邊的定的標準不盡一致所以過去會希望說我兩邊都要選最好的就是這種爭議我會覺得這樣的事情大家彼此多溝通多討論因為它涉及到的法制不同的法系"},{"start":6983.044,"end":6983.324,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":7011.055,"end":7011.435,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":7032.244,"end":7032.524,"text":"案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具"},{"start":7062.544,"end":7065.246,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":7073.273,"end":7089.344,"text":"委員剛剛我們已經說明了就是說他依據的這個法源不同權利義務也不同其實待的這個時間比如說外國的這個外國人的部分4天其實1天是要待335天連續居住在台灣"},{"start":7096.869,"end":7114.877,"text":"大陸的部分其實今年是173天,沒有天氣,其實它的設計又有不同,所以全立議會也是沒有天氣,這是兩岸條例,這是移民法,所以國際法,所以國有不同。"},{"start":7115.897,"end":7116.017,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":7134.443,"end":7145.433,"text":"案。 也涉及到他個人意願,或是以母國的資產問題、保險等等,所以很難說好壞。主席,抱歉,還有9分鐘,謝謝。在這裏面,我認為我們今天已經啟出討論,我們如果有問題,說得清楚,尤其在他的經歷,他如果來我們這裡,"},{"start":7160.566,"end":7180.187,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜與新住民權益保障法草案件事宜與新住民權益保障法草案件事宜與新住民權益保障法草案件事宜與新住民權益保障法草案件事宜與新住民權益保障法草案件事宜與新住民權益保障法草案件事宜與新住民權益保障法草案件事宜與新住民權益保障法草案件事宜與新住民權益保障法草案件事宜與新住民權益保障法草案件事宜與新住民權益保障"},{"start":7181.001,"end":7199.213,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障"},{"start":7204.677,"end":7211.943,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。 審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":7237.005,"end":7241.029,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保�"},{"start":7263.669,"end":7281.529,"text":"一個完整的基本法但其實在國外任何注重人權的國家早就已經把這樣的基本法都已經訂好了所以我覺得不是說現在還要討論說我們是不是還要先一條一條列出解決事項才回頭訂這個基本法這是一個態度的問題"},{"start":7283.231,"end":7285.073,"text":"臺灣已經超過60萬人新住民成長速度非常快內政部有新住民照顧服務措施政策韓國在2007年訂了《外國人處遇基本法》"},{"start":7305.593,"end":7318.317,"text":"內容包括人權保障、生活適應的支持、友善的環境、反歧視等重要規定早就定在裡面了。每5年他們就會提出外國人基本政策的計劃方針。"},{"start":7320.878,"end":7330.361,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會"},{"start":7340.472,"end":7343.094,"text":"審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審"},{"start":7369.661,"end":7370.302,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":7384.136,"end":7384.316,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":7401.405,"end":7405.528,"text":"現在實質面其實各部會也都在做當然我覺得這個組織到底要怎麼劃分這個其實都可以在主條的時候再討論那我現在希望部裡要有一個態度就是說因為我們這些原則定出來是我們"},{"start":7416.576,"end":7444.482,"text":"承諾我們非常廣納所有新住民來台灣融入台灣的社會我覺得這是一個基本的態度啦現在不要一直進到細節說我們到底要不要有什麼專責機構然後哪一個專責機構其實不是這樣的那我講一下其實國際上有一個評比就是有一個移民融合政策的指標那有很多的人權國家都有被評比那其實台灣在這個評比裡面結果只有42分"},{"start":7446.042,"end":7448.424,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．新住民權益保障法草案．新住民權益保障法草案．"},{"start":7468.682,"end":7484.641,"text":"新住民生活調查來台灣8年多的一個泰國的配偶他本來面試都已經錄取了可是他拿出居留證上面居留證有加註說這個持證的人工作不需經過不需要申請工作的許可但是還是被公司拒絕了"},{"start":7485.642,"end":7489.747,"text":"這是實際發生過的案例所以代表說台灣的這個就業市場其實對於外國人對於新住民來台灣即便都已經有這樣的認證了但是他還是在就業市場上非常的不友善那當然還有很多例如說"},{"start":7500.819,"end":7527.535,"text":"有些新住民有提到說因為我們在這個社會救助法的資格審查必須要包括職業寫清的收入需要提供無撫養能力證明才能排除不然會算出他的虛擬所得所以有些新住民他還要請他的母國的父母到很遠的市中心去準備他的文件然後公證然後翻譯之後再拿過來再提供給我們有這樣的經驗那變成說我覺得這些其實都對他們來說都有一點過頭了"},{"start":7529.836,"end":7533.141,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":7547.58,"end":7552.845,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":7565.777,"end":7569.838,"text":"這個問題其實也很多人講過了就是說撤銷國籍它是一個牽涉他身份的變動當然要很謹慎虛偽結婚牽涉到的是偽造文書但是如果有些人他犯的不是偽造文書甚至是更嚴重的犯罪行為但是他取得這個國籍規劃五年之後他還是不用撤銷國籍"},{"start":7586.542,"end":7597.504,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會議．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案．審查委員羅美玲等"},{"start":7614.462,"end":7614.502,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":7628.696,"end":7652.088,"text":"當然我還是希望因為會變成說大家特別針對這件事情因為何謂假結婚這個其實結婚的目的有非常多重的原因因為你們現在判斷他是不是假結婚其實是用他事後來看當初這個婚姻是不是虛偽的我覺得你們在判斷這個標準上其實有很多很多的檢討空間當然我們會檢討這個可以回去再討論一下以上謝謝"},{"start":7657.813,"end":7665.618,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。《新住民權益保障法草案》案。"},{"start":7682.785,"end":7685.467,"text":"市長好市長好市長好市長好市長好市長好市長好市長好市長好市長好市長好"},{"start":7708.31,"end":7716.017,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":7725.285,"end":7732.348,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":7749.352,"end":7756.038,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案． 新住民權益保障法草案． 新住民權益保障法草案案。"},{"start":7769.109,"end":7770.069,"text":"案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":7792.617,"end":7792.937,"text":"案。 審查委員"},{"start":7817.174,"end":7817.474,"text":"案。 審查委員"},{"start":7842.469,"end":7850.6,"text":"我相信我們市長、我們團隊、我們這個新住民,你也覺得這也是這麼有重要性。請一個單位,請你講的,要看會議,要來溝通。請你講,"},{"start":7857.887,"end":7873.063,"text":"審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件的主題是什麼?」審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件的主題是什麼?」審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件的主題是什麼?」審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件的主題是什麼?」"},{"start":7875.886,"end":7880.971,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":7902.89,"end":7906.212,"text":"張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．事由．新住民權益保障法草案．事由．新住民權益保障法草案．事由"},{"start":7926.265,"end":7937.77,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。"},{"start":7948.294,"end":7951.975,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案。 新住民權益保障法草案案。"},{"start":7965.14,"end":7966.4,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":7989.185,"end":7990.486,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。 《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":8014.484,"end":8018.725,"text":"這問題經常會發生,我們就是代表我們這個翻譯的人員不足,一旦有問題警察局裡面也需要監護的翻譯,當勞工的問題也要有勞工的翻譯,日理和書翻譯裡面也需要翻譯,裡面牽涉到國國會。"},{"start":8039.23,"end":8056.714,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件及其根據、審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件及其根據、審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件及其根據、審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件及其根據、審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件及其根據、審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件及其根據、審查委員羅美"},{"start":8069.396,"end":8084.592,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事項與新住民權益保障法草案案件事項與新住民權益保障法草案案件事項與新住民權益保障法草案案件事項與新住民權益保障法草案案件事項與新住民權益保障法草案案件事項與新住民權益保障法草案案件事項與新住民權益保障法草案案件事項與新住民權益保障法草案案件事項與新住民權益保障法草案案件事項與新住民權益保障法草案案件事項"},{"start":8085.493,"end":8092.398,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件"},{"start":8102.324,"end":8107.127,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事項：短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短短�"},{"start":8129.719,"end":8132,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":8147.887,"end":8148.327,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":8176.386,"end":8179.808,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等21人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等21人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。"},{"start":8199.58,"end":8216.49,"text":"上個禮拜本來要跟你討論一些住宅的政策今天馬上就是跟你討論這個我覺得有一點點移民政策的味道但是是為了新住民的權益來討論這個新住民的這個基本法或者是權益法"},{"start":8217.028,"end":8219.31,"text":"臺灣這個社會上對於新住民的存在他們的權益或他們的基本權益"},{"start":8243.588,"end":8265.753,"text":"是不是應該要在我們這邊來做一個嚴肅的討論但是我們先就一點就身份來討論的話也有很多委員的版本到底現在在台灣新住民人口有多少我們要怎麼定義那未來這個新住民基本法或者是新住民權益法它保障到多少人我們先來做一個討論"},{"start":8266.813,"end":8280.361,"text":"審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":8294.588,"end":8294.768,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":8310.726,"end":8332.365,"text":"甚至他們跟我們政府單位剛剛很多其他委員在講的比如說我們新住民媽媽去到區公所或者是上網沒有看到那些表格其實在男子區我們那些地方其實非常的多服務非常的好那我們政府要做的是什麼"},{"start":8333.479,"end":8347.561,"text":"大家希望什麼?希望說,比如說這個新住民媽媽或新住民家庭他去到、去公所他需要什麼樣的服務的時候,我們可以給予什麼樣的服務,包含語言"},{"start":8348.439,"end":8371.028,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件,包括文字表格等等。」審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件,包括文字表格等等。」審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件,包括文字表格等等。」審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件,包括文字表格等等。」審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件,包括文字表格等等。」審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草"},{"start":8371.488,"end":8399.934,"text":"例如說好再進一步講比如說這個很多辛酸可能這個其他委員都有收到一些陳情他們遇到緊急狀況的時候要打個電話要打去哪裡有沒有人隨時可以協助到我們有1995是24小時7種語言都在附近的時候路徑的時候都已經有做這些相關的宣導但是還要加強啦今天的目的就是說還要加強啦"},{"start":8400.814,"end":8427.684,"text":"我想最後再跟花次討論一個有趣的議題就是面對少子化、面對高房價少子化跟高房價很奇怪、很弔詭都反方向但是少子化有一個目前我知道教育部已經在推動可能高中、大學都會有一些可能我們會來自東南亞甚至其他國家的學生進來我們大學並且放寬他們可以建教的時數"},{"start":8429.105,"end":8438.739,"text":"未來他可能是我們移民署的可能會進入我們這個移民政策的範圍之一或是請問你對這一個政策方向的看法"},{"start":8439.383,"end":8454.418,"text":"我想透過在台灣受教育進而跟台灣社會相融合這是一個很棒的移民切入的角度所以很可能這個方向我們在未來幾年會繼續來進進我尊重教育部因為這個部分不是我們內政部的但是你說是很棒的移民政策我也覺得很好這個我們會樂觀其成會繼續的來推動會繼續的看有什麼方式可以來推動"},{"start":8462.867,"end":8480.197,"text":"案,大量引進可能這個大概在高中大學階段各國優秀的人才可以進入到台灣變成台灣未來的可能是高階人才這個是我們可以一起來努力的方向最後有一個目前我們對於中國的"},{"start":8484.003,"end":8495.294,"text":"中國新住民或美國、英國、日本等新住民的高階學歷認證請教育部中生教育司司長及外交部條約法律司"},{"start":8508.672,"end":8531.179,"text":"有有有終生教育司司長終生教育司司長謝謝來我簡述一下我快速的說明一下我的問題就是說目前包含中國跟美英的這些可能新住民他們來到台灣他們的學歷認證那對於中國以及美日德等"},{"start":8531.86,"end":8546.981,"text":"我們其實是直接去發函去給我們的外使單位,那就可以獲得認證,但是很多來自東南亞包含泰國、越南、緬甸等等是無法獲得這個服務,那我們有沒有相關可以協助的地方?"},{"start":8549.863,"end":8560.453,"text":"除了大陸的部份我們有交易部高教師有委託學校來進行學歷採認外國的部份都是由各大學來辦理學歷採認的事情"},{"start":8575.325,"end":8589.848,"text":"東南亞很多國家也需要我們這樣相關的服務請教育部跟外交部也做這些相關的聯繫報告委員我們所有的國家包含東南亞還有歐美國家我們都會提供這樣的服務沒有問題謝謝謝謝博弈委員子詢謝謝次長跟署長教育部的代表我們現在休息5分鐘待會繼續開會謝謝"},{"start":8613.877,"end":8624.313,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案 案。 》"},{"start":8915.609,"end":8929.92,"text":"好,我們現在開始質詢。大家都回過位子上了嗎?好,請中嘉賓、中嘉賓、中嘉賓委員不在。張智倫委員質詢。好,謝謝。好,謝謝主席、各位官員、各位委員。大家早安、大家好。有請次長。"},{"start":8946.226,"end":8971.193,"text":"有請文化次長財務委員好次長早安今天本席非常開心有機會來針對這個新住民基本法的修法草案來請教次長那也希望說這個次長這邊趕快先第一個還是要先提出正院的版本然後讓這個新住民基本法可以加強來推動那次長也跟您報告一下根據國際的資料統計"},{"start":8973.214,"end":8989.276,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案"},{"start":8989.876,"end":9004.667,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":9004.847,"end":9021.672,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民基金法草案案件、新住民基金法草案案件、新住民基金法草案案件、新住民基金法草案案件、新住民基金法草案案件、新住民基金法草案案件、新住民基金法草案案件、新住民基金法草案案件、新住民基金法草案案件、新住民基金法草案案件、新住民基金法草案案件、新住民基金法草案案件、新住民基金法草案案件、新住民基金法草案案件、新住民基金法草案案件、新住民基金法草案案件、"},{"start":9023.873,"end":9041.141,"text":"當時在彰化有一個新住民的新二代被認為是移工結果被警察毆打的一個舉動當時讓新住民圈覺得非常的震驚那當然我相信後續政府部門有做一些處置的部分市長怎麼看這件事情?"},{"start":9041.857,"end":9064.507,"text":"我想確實這涉及到多方面的問題那我覺得當然該改進的我們絕對改進那特別是這個所長或警察局的這樣一個作為其實不管他是移工還是新住民實際上我們都應該要善待啦而不應該是說因為他是移工所以可以這樣我想不可以移工也不可以"},{"start":9065.347,"end":9068.129,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。"},{"start":9082.096,"end":9110.129,"text":"這邊首先要請教次長一些問題有關於剛剛很多委員提到的這新住民的學歷問題尤其東南亞的部分那就本席得知像越南的部分好像只承認台灣只承認大學以上的學歷那因為很多新住民他們過去可能因為生活的一些問題有些大學的只有念高中國中所以學歷承認的部分是不是請這個次長部分要來協助還有印尼的部分好像有相對應同樣的情形"},{"start":9110.669,"end":9132.192,"text":"那柬埔寨的部分更是缺乏,聽說柬埔寨所有的這個文件,台灣當局都不承認。那所以他們基本上會,我相信會部分的會阻礙他們想要來台灣來當新住民的一個問題。那這個部分是不是請次長稍微分享一下說,怎麼樣來協助他們有關於學歷取得的部分。"},{"start":9132.492,"end":9150.375,"text":"報告委員這個事情在行政院的新住民事務協調會報其實都陸陸續續在處理那如果還有遺漏我們發現的後續還是會提報來處理現階段本質上都會認證就是說不是只有大學或是高中也不會基本上這個部分都會做處理"},{"start":9150.956,"end":9162.172,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬"},{"start":9167.719,"end":9168.219,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":9193.692,"end":9202.416,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":9217.862,"end":9219.524,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。"},{"start":9246.525,"end":9249.006,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具"},{"start":9271.634,"end":9272.395,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":9283.491,"end":9309.07,"text":"這個我們可能要跟勞動部或衛福部再去了解一下這個狀況不好意思因為內政部就沒有補助到這一個部分那最後還有一個最重要的重點我們最近很多的緬甸的留學生一年大概將近三、四千人來台灣最近一直在討論他們在當地健檢的一個問題在緬甸當地只有一家的健檢中心那因為緬甸"},{"start":9310.191,"end":9325.898,"text":"有3000多他們每次這些留學生要來台灣留學或遊學的部分他們都要去跟旅行業者排一個將近一個禮拜的行程所以舟車勞頓所以我們現在有請新光醫院請衛福部這邊來協助是不是可以多規劃幾個健檢的中心"},{"start":9328.42,"end":9352.56,"text":"這部分本期從4月15日我相信已經有去函這個緬甸辦事處的部分是不是可以積極來協調今天兩個禮拜都還沒有消息我們再跟衛福部跟外交部來聯繫確認再跟委員回報最後一點抱歉主席再給我一分鐘再問一個問題就可以了最後一個問題我看那個新住民發展基金的部分每年編列預算大概多少"},{"start":9354.344,"end":9355.545,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":9373.032,"end":9385.995,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民"},{"start":9396.718,"end":9410.914,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等18人�"},{"start":9412.003,"end":9413.444,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":9427.512,"end":9427.632,"text":"張智倫委員"},{"start":9447.731,"end":9448.131,"text":"主席、各位委員、請次長。"},{"start":9477.432,"end":9506.224,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案案件,在內政委員會不是第一次討論,在上一屆的時候也有討論過。」審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案件,在內政委員會不是第一次討論,在上一屆的時候也有討論過。」審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案件,在內政委員會不是第一次討論,在上一屆的時候也有討論過。」審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案件,在內政委員會不是第一次討論,在上一屆的時候也有討論過。」審查委員羅美玲等18"},{"start":9506.997,"end":9534.543,"text":"案。 至今年3月底,我國婚姻移民人數共計59萬5千多,將近60萬,加上子女47萬多,真的是超過100萬。之所以立法院會有這樣的提案,就表示現在的法例,"},{"start":9535.959,"end":9563.96,"text":"案,顯然是不足的。所以這個部分在這個內政部或是其他相關部會的報告裡面就必須要就真的現在的法律已經有哪些規定啊如果有不足哪些不足啊來來去來去而不是說啊這個還還沒有還不需要定啊像人事行政總署馬上常常用那條"},{"start":9565.014,"end":9565.274,"text":"案。 審查委員"},{"start":9594.227,"end":9617.159,"text":"還有委員會改來改去的都有 一下子國科會 一下子又科技部 一下又改回來 原子能委員會又改來改去當然就是因為他有他的需要 所以這個部分未來要很具體的計較到底應該要怎麼樣去"},{"start":9617.944,"end":9618.024,"text":"案。 審查委員"},{"start":9633.084,"end":9633.544,"text":"案。 審查委員"},{"start":9653.466,"end":9669.338,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案件。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保�"},{"start":9676.644,"end":9699.696,"text":"也不是說定了新住民基本法好像問題就解決了我想也不可能所以說怎麼樣把這件事情做得比較到位問題點到底在哪邊而反而避免去徒增一些新的爭議啦就像說新住民怎麼定義他的對象和範圍但是即使界定了那他離他不是什麼時候叫就好像說齁"},{"start":9700.777,"end":9703.26,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":9721.96,"end":9749.907,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":9750.922,"end":9777.065,"text":"以現在的規模、人數的成長來說事實上是要檢討的因為這個部分的規模、金額都顯然是應該有所不足大家才會說是不是弄一個基本法才會更好是會有這樣的所以你們要一個整體的因為這必定是一個台灣"},{"start":9779.107,"end":9805.494,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案"},{"start":9806.297,"end":9807.077,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":9836.144,"end":9853.228,"text":"非常謝謝鄭天才委員的質詢,也謝謝次長跟署長,謝謝。好,繼續我們請張家俊,張家俊,張家俊委員不在,繼續請吳祁銘召委質詢。來,要不要稍稍困一下。好,謝謝。好,主席,我們一位同仁,請移民署署長,"},{"start":9865.523,"end":9867.024,"text":"移民署中署長今天我們原住民基本法修正21條草案但是根據移民署去年統計台灣新住民已經超過59萬那大專院院生"},{"start":9894.313,"end":9919.549,"text":"案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查"},{"start":9922.028,"end":9933.308,"text":"因此本席也應訂定專法保障他們的權益讓他們也更能融入台灣的社會請問署長你的看法呢?"},{"start":9934.857,"end":9957.282,"text":"就如同剛剛我們內政部次長也都跟前面幾位委員說明了那目前是有機制在做這個照顧服務的一個措施那至於說我們是不是要再訂一個專法來做保就是更周圍的保障我想這個是可以檢討的啦"},{"start":9958.482,"end":9973.38,"text":"好 謝謝因為現在我們的新住民的人口是真的成長的速度太過驚人那針對我們新住民的學生就已經佔了一半有28萬5千人"},{"start":9976.417,"end":9992.811,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":9996.516,"end":10002.559,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":10014.845,"end":10027.713,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件, 與新住民權益保障法草案案件, 與新住民權益保障法草案案件, 與新住民權益保障法草案案件, 與新住民權益保障法草案案件, 與新住民權益保障法草案案件, 與新住民權益保障法草案案件,"},{"start":10041.401,"end":10064.08,"text":"現行我們從4月1號以後有做一個提高比如說在公共事務通益的費用我們前兩個小時就以1000元來計算那第三個小時期就500元月間我們再跟他加倍這個都有已經有做這個逐步的一個調升跟委員做報告"},{"start":10064.69,"end":10065.471,"text":"審查委員張智倫等18人擬具"},{"start":10087.642,"end":10097.365,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保�"},{"start":10113.969,"end":10129.179,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案件。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保�"},{"start":10135.143,"end":10153.009,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案"},{"start":10165.004,"end":10165.345,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":10172.814,"end":10194.599,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案： 依照新住民權益保障法草案案案例規定,新住民權益保障法草案案例規定,新住民權益保障法草案案例規定,新住民權益保障法草案案例規定,新住民權益保障法草案案例規定,新住民權益保障法草案案例規定,新住民權益保障法草案案例規定,新住民權益保障法草案案例規定,新住民權益保障法草案案例規定,新住民權益保障法草案案例�"},{"start":10195.979,"end":10208.207,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會議．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人"},{"start":10224.13,"end":10239.625,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":10243.41,"end":10259.304,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案"},{"start":10270.97,"end":10280.6,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":10292.873,"end":10296.438,"text":"我認為我們也應該對家庭這方面的觀念讓大家了解。不可以說出家相關,因為大家要住,所以不可以結婚,因為我們都在說很多負面的事情。"},{"start":10307.028,"end":10307.809,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":10326.212,"end":10326.673,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":10347.193,"end":10351.616,"text":"新住民基本法草案"},{"start":10371.089,"end":10382.418,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件"},{"start":10399.011,"end":10411.5,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":10420.686,"end":10434.372,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案"},{"start":10446.898,"end":10450.239,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具"},{"start":10474.727,"end":10475.569,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":10481.141,"end":10484.923,"text":"新住民的定義已經目前的人員10年內增加10萬現在的總人數大概60萬如果再包括新住民的家庭成員、子女超過百萬超過百萬在我們台灣難道我們不重視他嗎?"},{"start":10505.976,"end":10516.445,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案"},{"start":10526.514,"end":10536.478,"text":"當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理當然要處理"},{"start":10557.02,"end":10567.227,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件"},{"start":10579.955,"end":10584.859,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第1會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第3會期內政委員會第4會期內政委員會"},{"start":10598.28,"end":10624.869,"text":"你輔導他們什麼?告訴我。我們其實是看他的需求啦。你比如說他要就業或是怎麼樣,其實我們在各地我們都有一個新住民家庭服務中心嘛。那我們的服務站也有所謂的這個新住民家庭網絡,來我們來協助他們。只要他們有需求,我們也有個案的一個管制、協助。其實做的就是說只要新住民他有需求,有"},{"start":10625.569,"end":10628.491,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。 《新住民權益保障法草案》案。"},{"start":10644.204,"end":10659.472,"text":"譬如說他們遭受到家暴他們的工作權益你們出來上課上完課你怎麼輔導他你怎麼輔導他你們的輔導成功率有多少你們一年的KPI要怎麼樣協助他們有多少"},{"start":10660.811,"end":10674.518,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":10678.92,"end":10705.416,"text":"跟署長在這裡準總統賴清德自己的政見就包括建立國家級統一通益制度規劃培訓課程認證考試通益費用及相關的規範等等請問母姐你們的規劃是什麼現在已經在做了現在已經在做了而且在通益的經濟和清水的提高都已經今年都開始了所以本席再請教因為包括黑戶寶寶的問題"},{"start":10707.137,"end":10725.749,"text":"所以主席站起來本席要再一次的請教市長你代表內政部署長你在這裡你支不支持這個法案我們支持幫新住民照顧得更好讓他們生活更好但是方案上面我們可以討論方案上面可以討論我沒有支持或不支持如果它比較好我們當然支持那你們行政院什麼時候版本要來"},{"start":10734.93,"end":10735.79,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":10763.376,"end":10763.977,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":10784.352,"end":10793.741,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":10798.154,"end":10815.525,"text":"現在兩岸條例針對大陸配偶取得我們的身份是用戶籍來做處理所以外配跟陸配適用的法是不一樣的外配適用國籍法陸配適用兩岸條例"},{"start":10816.906,"end":10830.277,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保�"},{"start":10830.819,"end":10831.239,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":10852.132,"end":10858.963,"text":"移民署4月26日公告消除一切形式種族歧視國際公約國際審查結論性意見與建議出爐"},{"start":10867.976,"end":10887.435,"text":"請問依照行政院防制人口販運及消除種族歧視協調會報設置要點是由移民署署長來擔任執行秘書縱禮匯報有關作業是不是?請回答是或不是?是是是那請問署長這個公約重不重要?"},{"start":10888.115,"end":10888.916,"text":"中央法規涉及違反ICERD之餘的優先檢視清單。裡面列管的法規有26項。"},{"start":10907.396,"end":10929.05,"text":"涉及的機關包含了原民會、內政部、教育部、法務部、NCC、工程會、農業部、文化部、司法院、權序部以及國防部11個機關解除劣管也就是說完成修正的只有3項完成率只有10%今年3月20也才將法規檢視會議記錄上網公開這個歷經這麼多年了整個完成率只有10%"},{"start":10936.214,"end":10952.719,"text":"委員應該不是這樣子講這個是我們在有一個推動ISIS的推動計畫裡面我們去檢視說各部會的相關法令有疑慮的才放出來那現在在我們這兩年當中很多有完成的那這一次 因為我們是第一次的國家報告"},{"start":10960.842,"end":10968.527,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件"},{"start":10990.801,"end":11016.855,"text":"中署長本席要請問我們現在大家在關心原住民、新住民我們台灣地區人民受到各種歧視的情況是否嚴重?是否?都有各案啦!那截至目前為止居住在台灣地區的人民受歧視申訴審議案件有多少?"},{"start":11018.177,"end":11045.9,"text":"當目前為止從97年到目前為止本署受理的有36件對這36件你覺得算多不多不多嘛因為97年到113年這樣有6年了6年了36件但是本席要告訴你這個所謂的申訴是要在兩個月內以中文還有書面為之對不對"},{"start":11047.253,"end":11048.135,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":11052.248,"end":11070.157,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案。 〈新住民權益保障法草案案。 〉審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 〉審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 〉審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 〉審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 〉審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 〉審查委員"},{"start":11077.361,"end":11079.282,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":11095.611,"end":11107.878,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案 案件 、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案 案件 、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案 案件 、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案 案件 、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案 案件 、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案 案件 、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民"},{"start":11115.362,"end":11116.143,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":11134.565,"end":11152.234,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民"},{"start":11164.491,"end":11174.52,"text":"是 我們目前是我們的難民法是還沒有這個這個完成啦過去雖然有曾經在先前的會議以後有提過我們現在是依循國際的這個這個公約的這個精神啦做個案的一個處理啦"},{"start":11184.824,"end":11185.885,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":11207.323,"end":11218.106,"text":"蘇清泉蘇清泉委員不在黃孟凱黃孟凱黃孟凱委員不在鄭振泉鄭振泉鄭振泉委員不在賴世寶賴世寶賴世寶委員不在請羅美玲委員質詢謝謝主席有請移民署中署長"},{"start":11243.722,"end":11258.28,"text":"今天非常感謝主席排審跟新住民有關的權益保障專法的審查本席從馬來西亞來台灣就學、就業、落地生跟組織家庭"},{"start":11259.681,"end":11283.289,"text":"我也是一位新住民那深刻的體認到廣大新住民群體跟外籍人士在台生活所面臨的一些挑戰那其中橫跨了語言、醫療、教育、就業、文化等各種面向其實我在上一屆的時候就已經就新住民權益保障的部分跟行政單位做了很多很多的"},{"start":11283.629,"end":11283.709,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":11314.37,"end":11326.668,"text":"我們居然還是看不到院辦我真的很想問一句到底院辦什麼時候要出來畢竟從上一屆討論到現在我一直認為說行政單位應該要送院辦進來我想知道你們的困難點到底在哪裡"},{"start":11330.107,"end":11354.895,"text":"這個部分如同剛剛次長也已經有做一些說明了其實我們也都不斷的在努力精進那現有的機制也處理過很多的問題我想委員也擔任過我們的這個協調會報的委員在早先還沒到立法院之前也當過我們的這個協調會報的委員那其實我們現有的機制也都處理了很多的事情那也跨部會"},{"start":11355.615,"end":11359.156,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":11383.404,"end":11383.724,"text":"案。 審查委員"},{"start":11402.58,"end":11427.387,"text":"新住民不管是說基本法也好或權益保障法我認為這四國家非常重大的法案只有委員版沒有院版我真的覺得這個說不過去所以我們想說你們到底有沒有院版如果說有院版只是說有些地方有些定義必須釐清本席可以接受就好像新住民的法定定義到底是什麼到現在沒有一個結論"},{"start":11428.507,"end":11456.456,"text":"案。 早期的所謂的新住民我們都是認為就是婚姻移民可是後來我們有依照人才專法我們有高階人才因為高階人才入籍這算不算新住民那還有我們所謂的中階技術移工這個以後入籍算不算新住民到底這個定義在哪裡我們到現在沒有一個法律的這個定義那行政大會到目前為止也沒有給我們一個合理的解釋到底新住民到底含了哪些人"},{"start":11457.458,"end":11485.808,"text":"所以我在想說要討論OK 可以可是不能放著委員板都出來了你們到現在還沒有動作這是讓我沒有辦法接受的地方新住民定例可以找我們幾個委員我也好 蔓越洲委員也好我們都是新住民我們可以來討論可是目前我們好像連這個討論都沒有所以我們真的不曉得行政院的態度到底是什麼看起來不支持可是就是沒有院板出來"},{"start":11488.379,"end":11502.108,"text":"所以我就希望就是說這個行政單位你們真的不要在那邊拖我真的希望說面板出來大家一起討論我覺得這才是對這個重大法案的一個尊重好 以上謝謝好 非常謝謝羅美玲委員的諮詢謝謝 謝謝組長"},{"start":11505.73,"end":11526.465,"text":"登記發言的委員除了不在場之外其他的都已經發言結束了我們的詢答也結束然後未及答覆的部分請相關單位在一週之內以書面答覆並複製本會現在由本會委員協商共識因為招委也在請議事人員宣讀內容"},{"start":11530.438,"end":11555.599,"text":"海洋保育法草案之審查依據內政委員會第8次全體委員會議決議要求海洋委員會海洋保育署應於一個月內辦理5場公聽會時進入條文審查。縣海保署已於高雄、彰化、澎湖、花蓮及台東辦理公聽會完結。為求立法周延,原請海洋保育署於北部地區新增一場公聽會,邀請相關部會官員、專家學者、漁民及原住民部落代表傾聽意見納入建言。加開這公聽會不便跟原決議。"},{"start":11557.02,"end":11584.905,"text":"委員會之立法進程人議員決議得進入主條審查宣讀完畢好 請問各位委員有沒有意見沒有好 謝謝召委我們就請海洋保育署在北部地區新增一場公聽會我們中午就不休息我們繼續開會然後我們現在進行法案的審查請宣讀討論事項所有的版本還有條文已經修正動議一併宣讀宣讀完畢我們進行協商"},{"start":11586.936,"end":11613.54,"text":"討論事項一法名稱臺灣民眾黨黨團國民黨黨團委員張智倫等18人及委員蘇巧慧等26人提案法名稱均為新住民基本法委員羅美玲等22人提案法名稱為新住民權益保障法第一條臺灣民眾黨黨團為落實憲法保障我國多元文化精神保障新住民之基本權益並對其教育文化衛生醫療社會福利與參政等各項公民權益予以輔助與保障並促其發展及族群融合"},{"start":11613.92,"end":11629.137,"text":"建立共存共融之族群關係特制定本法國民黨黨團擬具委員張智倫等18人提案為落實憲法保障多元文化精神保障新住民之基本權益並對其教育文化衛生醫療及社會福利予以保障輔助並促其發展及族群融合特制定本法"},{"start":11629.818,"end":11648.533,"text":"委員羅美玲等22人提案為保障新住民之基本權益提高在台新住民之生活品質並促進其發展特制定本法委員蘇巧慧等26人提案為落實憲法保障多元文化精神保障新住民之基本權益協助其融入我國社會建立共存共融之族群關係特制定本法第二條台灣民眾黨黨團及國民黨黨團提案"},{"start":11651.515,"end":11677.205,"text":"案。 本法所稱新住民如下:「一、指配偶為台灣地區人民而其為外國人、五國籍人、大陸地區人民及香港、澳門居民以規劃成為本國國民或以依台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例定居者。二、一、入出國籍移民法第23條取得外僑居留證者。三、一、入出國籍移民法第25條取得外僑居留證者。」委員張智倫等18人提案。 續文為本法所稱新住民定義如下:「其與同國民黨黨團及台灣民眾黨黨團提案。」"},{"start":11680.049,"end":11709.512,"text":"委員羅美玲等22人提案本法所稱新住民定義如下一、一入出國籍移民法外國專業人才延攬及僱傭法香港澳門關係條例或台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例在台居留、永久居留、長期居留或定居在我國合法連續居留超過三年者二、一國籍法以規劃為我國國民者三、本條第1項外籍供定義只從事就業服務法第46條第1項第8款至第11款所定工作並持有內政部移民署所發給有效外"},{"start":11710.132,"end":11733.765,"text":"桥居留證至外國人委員蘇巧慧等26人提案本法所稱新住民定義如下一、一國籍法規劃為我國國民者二、配偶為我國國民至外國人或國籍人大陸地區人民及香港澳門居民或以一條地區與大陸地區人民關係條例定居者三、一入出國籍移民法第23條取得外橋居留證或第25條取得外橋永久居留證者第三"},{"start":11734.906,"end":11762.937,"text":"案。第三條,台灣民眾黨黨團提案國民黨黨團提案及委員張智倫等18人提案。第三條,本法之保障對象為具有新住民身份者及其子女。台灣民眾黨黨團提案第四條,行政院應設置新住民委員會以統籌規劃研究諮詢協調推動促進新住民就業、就學、培力、關懷、協助及多元服務相關事宜。國民黨黨團及委員張智倫等18人提案。前段改為行政院應設置新住民事務委員會其餘同台灣民眾黨黨團提案。"},{"start":11764.418,"end":11791.369,"text":"委員羅美玲等22人提案第三條行政院應設置新住民專責機關以統籌規劃研究諮詢協調推動促進新住民及其子女就學就業賠利關懷協助及多元服務等新住民支持相關事宜前向專責機關之組織另一法律定制其組成應助於新住民之比例委員蘇巧慧等26人提案第三條行政院應設置新住民委員會其組織及相關事務另一法律定制"},{"start":11792.869,"end":11819.419,"text":"臺灣民眾黨黨團國民黨黨團及委員張智倫等18人提案第五條。前條委員會設立前行政院為審議協調本法相關事務涉及各目的事業主管機關執掌者必要時得召開跨部會首長會議會同各目的事業主管機關辦理。委員蘇巧慧等26人提案第四條。前條委員會設立前行政院應設新住民會報研議協調及推動本法相關事務。前項會報之組成任務及其他應遵行事將由行政院定之。"},{"start":11820.299,"end":11839.678,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第6條本法所稱主管機關在中央為新住民委員會在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府直轄市與縣市政府應設新住民單一服務窗口提供新住民居住、醫療、就學、就業、輔助、司法、經濟、文化、族群融合等多元服務"},{"start":11840.479,"end":11858.185,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具委員張智倫等18人提案第6條本法所稱主管機關在中央為新住民事務委員會在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府直轄市與縣市政府應設置新住民行政局提供新住民就學就業輔助經濟活動文化族群融合等多元服務"},{"start":11859.245,"end":11884.985,"text":"委員蘇巧慧等26人提案第5條直轄市縣市政府應設置新住民專責單位或專人提供新住民就學、就業、社會救助、經濟活動、文化發展、族群融合等多元服務委員羅美玲等22人提案第4條政府應每年針對我國新住民總體支持事項檢討並改進其內容應包括以下事項一、我國新住民支持政策之基本方向二、我國新住民支持政策於各領域中之具體措施"},{"start":11885.265,"end":11901.198,"text":"案。 三、相關具體措施之成效分析。 四、新住民支持經費增來源與分配。 五、其他新住民支持相關事項。 言語制定或檢討新住民支持具體措施時,得邀集相關學者、專家及民間團體代表列寫陳述意見。 委員蘇巧慧等26人提案第7條。"},{"start":11902.259,"end":11918.052,"text":"第七條新住民委員會應擬定新住民事務及發展計劃經行政院核定作為直轄市縣市政府推動新住民事務之依據前向計劃之擬定應考量新住民之特殊性與權益並每四年檢討修正委員羅美玲等22人提案第五條"},{"start":11919.193,"end":11933.834,"text":"為研擬制定或檢討相關支持事項政府1年5年進行調查擬定計劃並將調查結果公開於網路委員蘇巧慧等26人提案第8條為研擬前條所定新住民事務及發展計劃政府1年2年進行新住民社會經濟調查並將調查結果公告"},{"start":11936.926,"end":11959.157,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第七條政府未培立新住民基本推動本法第十條、第十一條、第十四條、第十五條以及第十七條之事務與獎勵措施應設置新住民發展基金且基金之運用辦法由新住民委員會定之前項基金來源於中央政府循預算程序之撥款、民間捐款與相關法令規定之撥款及其他收入等充值國民黨黨團及委員張智倫等18人提案"},{"start":11961.818,"end":11983.445,"text":"案。 第3後段之新住民委員會修正為新住民事務委員會取於同台灣民眾黨黨團提案。 委員蘇巧慧等26人提案第6條為推動新住民與其子女及家庭照顧輔導服務人力資源培訓及發展建構多元文化社會有效整合政府及民間資源特設之新住民發展基金新住民發展基金收支保管及運用辦法由行政院定制。"},{"start":11984.605,"end":11998.079,"text":"委員羅美玲等22人提案第6條政府應提供多元文化及語言之教育與宣導以增進民眾對不同文化之尊重與理解委員蘇巧慧等26人提案第10條政府應尊重新住民之語言民俗節清文化藝術及價值觀"},{"start":11999.841,"end":12027.764,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第八條,為國家考試增訂新住民事務相關類科,以因應新住民公務之需求,有助於提升政府機關對新住民事務的重視,增進公務人員對新住民事務的專業之能,促進新住民融入台灣社會。國民黨黨團提案第八條,為加強新住民文化及產業傳承與發揚,政府應設北中南東新住民文化重點發展區,前向重點發展區應任用一定比例之新住民導覽人員,介紹與推廣新住民語言以及文化,"},{"start":12027.944,"end":12048.117,"text":"案。 其任用辦法由主管機關定之。 前日向業務與本法第4條委員會設立前之施行應協調與民主配合辦理。 政府應與國家考試增訂新住民事務相關類課以應新住民公務之需求。 委員張智倫等18人提案。 第二項後段之任用辦法修正為任用規則。 其餘同國民黨黨團提案。 委員蘇巧慧等26人提案第9條。 同國民黨黨團提案第8條第4項並著作文字修正。"},{"start":12055.287,"end":12077.995,"text":"第九條,台灣民眾黨黨團、國民黨黨團及委員張智倫等18人提案。第九條,政府應辦理新住民語言之認證與學習,建立新住民語言資料庫,鼓勵新住民語言研究發展及人才培育。政府應提供獎勵措施結合各級學校、家庭與社區推動新住民語言及華語語言學習,並提供新住民子女特殊教育協助。委員羅美玲等22人提案第九條。"},{"start":12078.695,"end":12106.14,"text":"案。 對於在台之新住民家庭政府應提供家庭諮詢、婚姻教育、育兒教育等服務並於各縣市設置家庭服務中心。對於前項家庭之子女政府應提供輔導措施以協助其適應學校生活並避免遭受歧視。委員蘇巧慧等26人提案第14條。第一項同台灣民眾黨黨團提案第9條這第一項。第二項為政府應提供獎勵措施結合各級學校家庭與社區推動新住民語言及我國語言學習並提供新住民子女教育協助。"},{"start":12107.04,"end":12124.438,"text":"案。 第10條,台灣民眾黨黨團、國民黨黨團及委員張智倫等18人提案。 第10條,政府應獎勵新住民學術研究、鼓勵大學院校設立新住民學術相關系所學位學成、發展及後製新住民知識體系,前向所培立之新住民事務人才政府應建立人才資料庫,統整規劃"},{"start":12126.52,"end":12144.125,"text":"事材運用委員蘇巧慧等26人提案第15條通國民黨黨團及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第10條第一項。第11條台灣民眾黨黨團國民黨黨團及委員張智倫等18人提案第11條政府機關構處理新住民15因使新住民得以其語言陳述意見"},{"start":12144.665,"end":12164.897,"text":"各該政府及官構必要時應聘請通譯傳譯職委員羅美玲等22人提案第8條政府應盡力提供普遍專業之翻譯及通譯服務為達成前項目標政府應建立統一之通譯人員培訓及職業制度委員蘇巧慧等26人提案第12條後段修正為必要時並提供該語言之通譯服務其餘同國民黨黨團及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第11條"},{"start":12168.079,"end":12189.981,"text":"委員羅美玲等22人提案第7條政府應提供新住民在我國生活所需之基本資訊包含教育、文化、衛生、醫療及社會福利等並鼓勵其接受社會適應教育、職業教育培訓以及中文教育等課程前項課程之辦理應注意偏遠地區或經濟狀況不佳新住民之上課門檻第一項之鼓勵得以獎勵或其他方法為之委員蘇巧慧等26人提案第11條"},{"start":12191.102,"end":12218.049,"text":"政府應提供新住民在我國生活所需之基本資訊包含教育、文化生活、就業、衛生醫療及社會福利等並辦理社會適應教育、職業教育培訓以及中文教育等課程。前項課程之實施辦法由行政院定之。第12條台灣民眾黨黨團、國民黨黨團及委員張智倫等18人提案。第12條政府應推動新住民與其母國聯結之措施以促進新住民與母國間經濟、社會、文化、宗教及學術等事項之交流合作。"},{"start":12218.669,"end":12229.401,"text":"委員羅美玲等22人提案第11條政府應推動第7條、第9條及其他支援政策時應努力提供多語言服務委員蘇巧慧等26人提案第16條同國民黨黨團及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第12條"},{"start":12233.666,"end":12259.162,"text":"案。 第13條台灣民眾黨黨團國民黨黨團及委員張智倫等18人提案。 第13條政府應鼓勵公民營機構辦理新住民就業服務提供就業諮詢職場諮詢就業聯合及輔導新住民取得專名職業資格及技術式證照保障其就業機會及工作權益。 委員羅美玲等22人提案第13條政府得以獎勵補助或其他方式協助民間團體辦理新住民支持計劃。 委員蘇巧慧等26人提案第17條同國民黨黨團及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第13條。"},{"start":12267.226,"end":12283.955,"text":"案。 政府應提供新住民公懷協助並對弱勢新住民應給予輔助政府對新住民參加社會保險或使用醫療資源無力承擔者應予補助委員羅美玲等20人提案。 政府應提供弱勢至新住民相關社會救助及醫療補助委員蘇巧慧等26人提案。 同國民黨黨團、台灣民眾黨黨團提案。"},{"start":12289.608,"end":12307.716,"text":"第15條台灣民眾黨黨團提案政府應保障新住民傳播及媒體經用權設立全國性新住民廣播電視以及網路或其他形式之影音平台前向對於直播新住民語言文化節目之廣播電視以及網路或其他形式媒體事業政府得予獎勵或補助國民黨黨團及委員張智倫等18人提案"},{"start":12310.998,"end":12330.24,"text":"第一項為政府應保障新住民傳播及媒體經用權依法協助規劃設立全國性新住民廣播電視以及網路或其他形式之媒體第二項同台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員蘇巧慧等26人提案第13條政府應保障新住民傳播及媒體經用權協助設立新住民專屬及使用語言之傳播媒介與機構"},{"start":12331.181,"end":12351.599,"text":"政府對於製播新住民語言文化節目之廣播、電視或網路等媒體事業得予以獎勵或補助。獎勵及補助辦法由行政院定之。第十六條,台灣民眾黨黨團、國民黨黨團及委員張智倫等18人提案。政府應鼓勵新住民投入公共參與增進多元文化交流。委員羅美玲等22人提案。第十二條,"},{"start":12352.279,"end":12363.352,"text":"政府因培訓新住民公共政策專業人才提供進修培訓課程並鼓勵新住民參加,請向之鼓勵得以獎勵或其他方法為之。委員蘇巧慧等26人提案第19條,同國民黨黨團及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第16條。"},{"start":12367.196,"end":12378.172,"text":"第17條台灣民眾黨黨團提案委員張智倫等18人提案及國民黨黨團提案本法自公佈日施行委員羅美玲等22人提案第14條及委員蘇巧慧等26人提案第12條第20條同國民黨黨團及台灣民眾黨黨團提案第17條"},{"start":12385.268,"end":12414.732,"text":"修正動議第二條本法所稱新住民定義如下一一入出國籍移民法外國專業人才延攬及僱用法香港澳門關係條例或台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例在台居留永久居留疫情居留長期居留或定居者二一國籍法申請規劃為我國國民者三一國籍法第二條第一項第一款或第二款前段屬我國國民父或母其中一人非我國國民或一國籍法第二條第一項第三款規劃取得我國國籍者"},{"start":12415.132,"end":12443.549,"text":"提案人委員王美惠等4人修正動議二第二條本法所稱新住民如下依配偶為台灣地區人民之外國人無國籍人大陸地區人民及香港澳門居民以規劃成為本國國民或以依台灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例定居者二依入出國籍移民法第23條取得外僑居留證者三依入出國籍移民法第25條取得外僑永久居留證者"},{"start":12444.409,"end":12468.8,"text":"第三條本法之是用對象為具有新住民身份者及其子女第四條行政院為審議協調本法相關事務應設置推動委員會由行政院院長召集之前向推動委員會三分之二之委員席次由新住民按來源來源別比例分配及組織由行政院定之第六條政府應尊重新住民多元文化鼓勵並提供語言民俗接近文化藝術等活動"},{"start":12470.629,"end":12499.307,"text":"第九條政府應提供獎勵措施結合各級學校家庭與社區推動新住民學習國家語言並提供新住民子女教育生活協助提案人委員徐新穎等三人討論事項二原住民如基本法增訂第二十條之一條文第二十條之一原住民保留地應輔導原住民取得承租權或無償取得所有權原住民取得原住民保留地所有權如有遺傳以原住民為限有下列情形之一者得由政府承受私有"},{"start":12499.867,"end":12525.166,"text":"案。 原住民保留地一、新辦土地徵收條例第三條、第四條、第一項規定之各款事業及所有權人一該條例第八條規定申請一併徵收二、經中央原住民族主管機關審認符合災害之預防災害發生時之應變及災後致復原重建用地需求三、稅捐基深機關受理以原住民保留地抵繳遺產稅或贈予稅四、因公法上金錢給付義務之指行事件未能拍定原住民保留地"},{"start":12525.726,"end":12552.678,"text":"政府依前項第3款及第4款規定承受之原住民保留地除政府機關依法撥用外其依轉之受讓人以原住民為限國有原住民保留地出租衍生之收益得作為原住民保留地管理原住民族地區經濟發展及基礎設施建設原住民族自治費用不受國有財產法第7條規定之限制原住民保留地之增化邊所有權取得資格條件與程序開發利用與出租出租衍生收益之管理運用及其他輔導管理"},{"start":12553.138,"end":12556.425,"text":"相關事項之辦法由中央原住民族主管機關定之宣讀完畢。"},{"start":12574.557,"end":12589.933,"text":"現在已經宣讀完畢了,謝謝,我在這邊宣告一下為了要使討論聚焦,本次的會議進行逐條討論的時候因為新住民基本法草案沒有行政院的版本"},{"start":12591.073,"end":12615.424,"text":"經查台灣民眾黨和國民黨黨團版本條文差異性不大我們是不是這次的會議就以兩個黨團版本條文為基準然後對照委員的修法提案來進行每條條文如果有委員提案或是修正動議的時候也分別請委員表示意見我們再由行政單位一併來回覆說明我們現在來進行寫商"},{"start":12616.806,"end":12616.967,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":12626.479,"end":12636.882,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等21人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第15次全體委員會"},{"start":12656.762,"end":12662.387,"text":"對,草案名稱是新住民基本法還是新住民權益保障法?"},{"start":12664.985,"end":12681.272,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委"},{"start":12690.316,"end":12719.142,"text":"年份也很久了大家來台灣的時間也很久了有新舊之分而且隨著時代的變化到底我們現在還適不適合稱人家為新住民還是甚至因為我們現在因為人口結構正在改變人口政策也設想要調整所以會不會是我們的移民政策也有必要再做進一步討論所以根本就應該不再使用新住民這個名詞而是使用新移民甚至是移民"},{"start":12719.622,"end":12719.822,"text":"案。 審查委員"},{"start":12737.245,"end":12755.074,"text":"美玲委員所提出的權益保障法能夠更直接的指涉到我們今天想要處理的種種事務嗎?這個今天早上也所在多有的討論啦基本法跟作用法的效力如何等等所以主席現在我們要從名稱開始來討論起的話我就覺得其實這個"},{"start":12761.84,"end":12783.519,"text":"要有很多的辯證空間新住民、新移民、移民還是基本法、權益保障法還是等等的這個我覺得大家需要有更多的思考以上我先說明一下我的立場啦我覺得需要再討論一下好 謝謝小委員繼續請羅美玲委員然後是郁真委員嗎?好 謝謝"},{"start":12786.375,"end":12786.495,"text":"新移民"},{"start":12813.126,"end":12819.285,"text":"案。 如果是新住民是New Inhabitants您在英文我們要如何定義都不知道"},{"start":12820.274,"end":12846.862,"text":"我們如果對外都說我們有新住民權益保障法那我們對外的時候要如何去稱呼所以我是覺得說到底我們要是新住民還是新移民還是移民那就是還要再去定義的地方所以單單這個名稱我都覺得說還要有一個非常大的這個討論連名稱連新住民新移民還是移民都還搞不清楚的狀況之下我們要如何去做主條的討論我這個覺得"},{"start":12848.943,"end":12851.645,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案。 《新住民權益保障法草案》案。 《新住民權益保障法草案案》案。"},{"start":12876.081,"end":12881.744,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":12905.177,"end":12906.078,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。"},{"start":12922.637,"end":12922.837,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":12944.082,"end":12944.322,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":12964.518,"end":12982.369,"text":"審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保"},{"start":12991.772,"end":13017.261,"text":"不管是新住民、新移民都好但那是基本法但如果我們是作用法我們權益保障法就比較偏向作用法其實要定一個基本法這個涵蓋的面向非常大然後可能還要再另定其他的法案去處理所以這一點我認為大家要先想清楚我們要的基本要的是什麼"},{"start":13018.221,"end":13033.013,"text":"如果我們今天的方向是要直接處理那權益保障法那比較直接但如果你要定一個基本法而不是作用法那個方向整個都不一樣喔這個可能要大家各位委員大家想一下喔"},{"start":13034.807,"end":13038.868,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件, 由於我認為權益保障法"},{"start":13063.137,"end":13064.399,"text":"張智倫委員"},{"start":13077.658,"end":13096.89,"text":"主席、各位委員、大家午安剛剛我是支持羅美玲委員的講法第一個我認為新住民在台灣已經將近60萬人了所以針對新住民的名詞定義我覺得大家都非常的清楚至於要修基本法還是修權益保障法的部分我也要幫賴麥一貞委員補充一下"},{"start":13101.886,"end":13102.346,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":13124.261,"end":13141.592,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":13147.756,"end":13147.936,"text":"案。 審查委員"},{"start":13169.432,"end":13188,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案件, 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件, 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件, 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件, 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件, 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件, 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保�"},{"start":13194.403,"end":13195.224,"text":"案的權益保障。"},{"start":13219.774,"end":13247.015,"text":"這個名稱的部分會涉及到後面的條文的定義比如說這個到底要叫新移民還是新住民移民的話就包含很多包括移工移民但是你移民署的業務包含因為現在我查了我查了在我們的法律裡面移民沒有定義吧"},{"start":13249.633,"end":13250.694,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":13275.066,"end":13284.75,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會第12屆第1會期內政委員會"},{"start":13304.198,"end":13324.609,"text":"第一條民眾黨的提案其實跟國民黨跟張智倫委員跟巧惠委好像比較相同但是呢這個民眾黨有一個參政的權利大家看一下所以我們對第一條大家來看看有沒有什麼意見"},{"start":13328.859,"end":13342.151,"text":"僑會委員主席我想我的版本當中我想唸一次留作記錄為落實憲法保障多元文化精神保障新住民之基本權益協助其融入我國社會"},{"start":13343.072,"end":13358.482,"text":"案。 建立共存共榮之族群關係特制定本法。我想我這樣寫的目的是不好意思我沒有要批評其他版本的意思而是我自身的觀念是認為現在的時代似乎比較不"},{"start":13360.083,"end":13369.15,"text":"不傾向於什麼族群融合我們已經從以前是我們是民族的大熔爐現在已經都是大家都說我們是沙拉碗就是每個人是相處在同一個空間當中可是我們可以保有自己的特色我記得我們在處理在建構原住民族的自我認同的時候也是傾向於這樣子的狀態所以我是比較沒有傾向於用族群融合這樣子的字來表述但是"},{"start":13390.064,"end":13403.077,"text":"當然我們是要一起進入到現在我們生存的這個空間土地狀態上所以我才會寫說是協助其融入我國社會建立共存共榮那我這樣子的寫法請大家參考好謝謝巧慧委員提的意見繼續我們請黃婕委員"},{"start":13409.093,"end":13415.596,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":13431.184,"end":13431.304,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":13454.525,"end":13458.466,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 《新住民權益保障法草案》案。 《新住民權益保障法草案》案。 《新住民權益保障法草案》案。"},{"start":13479.77,"end":13492.178,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案。 〈新住民權益保障法草案案〉審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 〈新住民權益保障法草案案。 〉審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 〉審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 〉審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 〉審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益"},{"start":13510.123,"end":13528.812,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等21人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 條例審查委員羅美玲等21人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件 條例審查委員羅美玲等21人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件 條例審查委員羅美玲等21人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件 條例審查委員羅美玲等21人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件 條例審查委員羅美玲等21人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件 條例審查委員羅美玲等21人擬具:「新住民"},{"start":13536.858,"end":13553.903,"text":"有王美惠委員的修正動議,還有徐欣盈委員的修正動議。大家都看一下。我們請美惠委員。主席,我認為新住民的權益和保障,"},{"start":13555.043,"end":13578.219,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保�"},{"start":13579.639,"end":13581.301,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":13600.84,"end":13624.833,"text":"這件事,我的意見是這樣,我是覺得,本來是要保障最有新住民的身份的孩子,這個法條應該是要有外籍的配偶的孩子,有我們國內的國際教育發動,去保障他的孩子,我相信是這樣,以上。"},{"start":13627.881,"end":13645.094,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 條例審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件 條例審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件 條例審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件 條例審查委員"},{"start":13655.248,"end":13678.296,"text":"其中有提到說就是大部分都是以規劃的跟本國人民結婚以規劃等等之類的可是我有加了一個外國專業人才纜財僱用法的這個部分因為這個法是前兩年才修的所以我們要那以我的想法來講應該也是要把這些人給納入因為這些外國專業人才他們來到台灣之後呢"},{"start":13678.956,"end":13697.791,"text":"他們可能剛開始是先來申請這個居留之後因為認同台灣之後入籍的其實也不少所以我有把這個外專人才給列入進來所以這部分的話我看到很多委員的版本其實是沒有這一條所以特別在這裡跟大家說明一下請這個僑會委員"},{"start":13704.315,"end":13731.324,"text":"好 我也跟大家分享報告一下我的版本我的版本這個本法所稱新住民定義如下那我想跟其他委員的版本的落差之一的話是先順序順序就有差別我想還是延續著我從早上質詢到現在的概念我認為新住民實在是不應該就只停留在過去我們在講說外配啊 陸配啊配偶"},{"start":13732.904,"end":13734.005,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。"},{"start":13752.717,"end":13756.319,"text":"規劃為我國國民者列為第一項我認為這是合理比較合理的狀態那第二項我的第二項呢那跟大家一樣就是處理這個因婚姻關係而取得這個身份的人那麼第三項的話是處理"},{"start":13769.284,"end":13778.307,"text":"因工作或因投資而取得居留及身分的人。不過當然這個地方等一下也請行政部門討論一下說明一下他的意見因為這裡確實是如果依照這種寫法是會連喬生也就是學生會包含在裡面那今天早上似乎是有不同的看法"},{"start":13791.471,"end":13791.872,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":13807.599,"end":13830.879,"text":"好 謝謝喬惠委員這樣子好不好我想請問一下羅美玲委員因為您的版本你是在第三款裡面本條第一項外籍一共的定義可是呢在你的第二條裡面並沒有像你的意思是其實就像剛剛喬惠委員講的其實我的版本其實還是不含這個藍領的這個部分"},{"start":13833.962,"end":13834.062,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":13845.416,"end":13870.729,"text":"這部分的話還是以這個比如說勞工的部分他必須移工的部分必須還是要第五年的時候轉到中階我知道但是我知道您的意思但是就是在您的文字的上面還有你的第二條前面並沒有這一項所以所以你的第三款寫說本條第一項我們找不到你第一項在哪裡"},{"start":13871.869,"end":13872.59,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":13894.085,"end":13900.367,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":13909.99,"end":13910.191,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":13927.929,"end":13939.119,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等21人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":13950.709,"end":13951.029,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":13964.022,"end":13979.701,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":13984.363,"end":13990.809,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":14000.498,"end":14003.401,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案。 〈審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「"},{"start":14020.299,"end":14041.124,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅"},{"start":14047.133,"end":14068.504,"text":"我覺得齁剛剛在質詢內容裡面其實也有講到我們把子女但是他子女可能是在台灣出生的在台灣念幼稚園、念小學、念國中那你要把他冠上一個身份以後我們還沒討論到這個是基本法還是權益法你把他冠上一個身份以後"},{"start":14069.304,"end":14090.471,"text":"他在班上就是新住民學生而不是跟同學一樣我覺得這個有點奇怪我覺得這個可能大家不要說反不反對我們當然是希望他有遇到任何教育醫療語言障礙上我們一定要給你協助但是要不要在他的身份上他就是班上的新住民學生這個"},{"start":14091.351,"end":14091.872,"text":"審查委員羅美玲"},{"start":14108.154,"end":14126.651,"text":"好 謝謝召委其實我的看法跟立委一樣我是覺得我們現在也還不知道這個是基本法還是作用法那我們這樣子的情況之下你如果第三條又去及其子女第一個怪怪的那第二個我覺得啦"},{"start":14127.625,"end":14141.18,"text":"他的子女他應該都是有中華民國國籍的人了我們如果要把他分開出來我真的覺得對他的整個成長過程這點我們必須要考量一下好 謝謝張宏祿委員再請黃婕委員"},{"start":14147.005,"end":14152.929,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會議．立法院擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．"},{"start":14162.836,"end":14180.592,"text":"其實特別還要把它拿出來做新住民的權益的保障是不是有一種額外標籤化的感覺那他原本就使用台灣國籍的相關的權益的保障其實就是就是台灣人就是大家就這樣看待就可以所以我是擔心這一條會有這樣的疑慮啦"},{"start":14182.634,"end":14206.631,"text":"那當然我們也是很善意的我們最希望的就是它可以完全融入台灣的社會然後不會有額外的把它做排除或者是把它還要切一個族群出來我覺得最大的宗旨是這樣所以這一條會造成好的效果還是會有額外的附加的負面的效果我覺得大家要有審慎的思考 謝謝好 繼續我們請麥玉珍委員"},{"start":14208.265,"end":14214.429,"text":"謝謝主席 謝謝大家我把新住民 新二代放進來的部分就是我們是要保障新二代我們在新二代沒有百分之百都是在台灣出生也沒有百分之百都是在有台灣的國籍所以說我們上次我們是不是要講的那個國籍法"},{"start":14229.417,"end":14237.963,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":14252.574,"end":14258.317,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件及其中一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十"},{"start":14282.589,"end":14282.83,"text":"案。 審查委員"},{"start":14298.149,"end":14305.434,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":14319.302,"end":14319.723,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":14330.473,"end":14351.497,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜及審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜及審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜及審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜及審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜及審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜及審查委員羅美玲等18人擬"},{"start":14360.299,"end":14363.18,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":14380.468,"end":14404.818,"text":"張宏祿委員如果我們今天定的是作用法你說把他的子女放下去我覺得還有可以討論的空間但如果你今天定的是基本法我真的就覺得把他的子女用下去我覺得有點怪怪的而且對他的子女有點標籤化所以真的回到這個是作用法還是基本法"},{"start":14405.638,"end":14405.979,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":14419.468,"end":14422.911,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。《新住民權益保障法草案》案。"},{"start":14439.208,"end":14455.564,"text":"我們如果把子女部分排除在階段上等於把子女可以有的適用可能都排除了所以後面很多條文如果只適用在第一代的新住民會讓整部法案的精神都走樣"},{"start":14456.445,"end":14456.845,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":14476.363,"end":14484.752,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":14496.886,"end":14497.366,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。"},{"start":14526.119,"end":14528.5,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。"},{"start":14551.666,"end":14553.527,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":14576.911,"end":14603.661,"text":"謝謝次長補充說明這樣子好不好我來處理一下因為那個現在有這個所謂的保障對象這個第三條還有那個徐欣英委員的這個修正動議適用我們先用適用還是保障當然我們會保留就是這個部分就是我們先處理一下這個這個欣英委員跟郁真委員"},{"start":14608.115,"end":14609.516,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":14622.492,"end":14623.213,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":14644.622,"end":14648.768,"text":"案中央主管機關定義許新穎委員修正動議第4條請委員看一下條文內容"},{"start":14662.298,"end":14676.483,"text":"大概為大家看了一下第四條的部分民眾黨的版本是行政院要設置新住民委員會國民黨黨團也是事務多了一個新住民事務委員會蘇巧惠委員是一樣新住民委員會"},{"start":14686.688,"end":14694.194,"text":"張智倫委員新住民事務委員會張智倫委員新住民事務委員會張智倫委員新住民事務委員會"},{"start":14709.995,"end":14718.503,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案 條文中,行政院應設置新住民專責機關。」審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案 條文中,行政院應設置新住民專責機關。」"},{"start":14727.051,"end":14728.872,"text":"新住民委員會新住民委員會新住民委員會"},{"start":14750.242,"end":14750.282,"text":"張智倫委員"},{"start":14776.011,"end":14787.46,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 行政院應設立新住民委員會 行政院應設立新住民委員會 行政院應設立新住民委員會 行政院應設立新住民委員會 行政院應設立新住民委員會 行政院應設立新住民委員會 行政院應設立新住民委員會 行政院應設立新住民委員會 行政院應設立新住民委員會 行政院應設立新住民委員會 行政院應設立新住民委員會 行政院應設立新住民委員會 行政院應設立新住民委員會 行政院應設立新住民委員會 行政院應設立新住民"},{"start":14800.971,"end":14813.856,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等21人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":14830.302,"end":14832.569,"text":"好,非常謝謝巧慧委員補充說明,繼續我們請張智倫委員"},{"start":14839.597,"end":14863.396,"text":"好 謝謝主席 各位委員最近對於這個第4條設立新住民事務委員會這個部分我相對是堅持因為現在這些很多的部會各部會現在是新住民事務局現在的推動是有是已經它的效益不彰就像剛剛很多委員講的用上課的方式一個一個委員會去消耗這個政府的預算非常不妥所以"},{"start":14864.176,"end":14874.765,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、新住民權益保障法草案案件、"},{"start":14881.121,"end":14896.274,"text":"好 先請王美玲委員主席在這兩天我們行政院目前就設了一個新住民事務協調會議嘛到現在滿編的時候像如果說要再設下去一定有權益的啦是這樣要怎麼處理這是最重要的 以上"},{"start":14908.401,"end":14916.35,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":14928.143,"end":14943.501,"text":"依據因為我們原住民族基本法也是第三條裡面的寫法一模一樣行政院為審議協調本法相關事務應設置推動委員會由行政院院長召集之"},{"start":14944.102,"end":14968.344,"text":"那前項推動委員會三分之二之委員席次由新住民案來源別比例分配請組織也由行政院定之那本席提這個也是按照前面就是我們包括原住民委員會還有原住民基本法我們是參考所以這個部分也許也適中也有彈性請大家參考謝謝"},{"start":14969.48,"end":14974.687,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":14988.029,"end":14988.189,"text":"案。 審查委員"},{"start":15006.779,"end":15025.148,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民"},{"start":15025.788,"end":15041.523,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案"},{"start":15051.24,"end":15080.729,"text":"不當黨團處理委員會就是這樣來的這個轉型正義委員會也都是這樣子放在那條條文裡面的好 以上好 謝謝哲祺李博弈委員謝謝 其實每個版本都幾乎都是希望可以成立這個委員會啦但是其實你去檢視各縣市政府那有一些縣市政府目前還沒有成立的原因不是因為他們人不夠也不是因為沒有注意到"},{"start":15081.529,"end":15093.723,"text":"其實最重要的就是說其實如果我們現在要通過以目前行政院還沒有提出版本的話行政院如果要提出這一個版本一定要先在做組織的這些變革跟討論因為現在已經滿編的嘛"},{"start":15096.966,"end":15110.38,"text":"我相信所有的縣市政府也一樣這需要一個過程所以是不是等院版趕快來提出一併把大家的需求組織改造等等的一併來做一些討論那我們再來做討論會比較適合 謝謝"},{"start":15116.311,"end":15116.952,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等21人擬具"},{"start":15131.784,"end":15148.469,"text":"好 謝謝主席我的想法是因為確實現在是滿邊的狀況那組織基準法裡面也有提到說不得已作用法或其他的法規規定機關之組織所以我當然也是希望最後是可以有一個專責的機關來處理只是在此之前滿邊的狀況要怎麼改組"},{"start":15153.45,"end":15157.612,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．新住民權益保障法草案．新住民基本法草案．新住民權益保障法草案．新住民權益保障法草案．"},{"start":15177.664,"end":15201.021,"text":"審理一個專責機關之前除了現在的行政院新住民事務協調匯報之外我們移民署的業務是不是也應該要可以加速的來調整像是現在的移民事務組可以先改成新住民事務組等等的就是讓他們在這個過渡期可以先來做一個權益的保障跟處理"},{"start":15201.741,"end":15204.504,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等21人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．新住民權益保障法草案．"},{"start":15221.624,"end":15222.725,"text":"案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具"},{"start":15244.878,"end":15245.859,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":15264.238,"end":15269.699,"text":"新住民不管是委員會還是新住民委員會因為像我們的調寫委剛才的就是一年兩次這樣子的話都是來背書說要怎麼去花這個錢各個部會已經花完了大家來簽名背書而已就沒有達到那個效果真正的照顧到或者權益我覺得是這樣"},{"start":15288.584,"end":15289.325,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":15306.425,"end":15306.445,"text":"案。"},{"start":15338.55,"end":15338.57,"text":"案。"},{"start":15345.253,"end":15354.197,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":15374.699,"end":15391,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":15391.921,"end":15393.722,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":15416.792,"end":15423.659,"text":"可能現階段還是以那個現在的機制寫了匯報來處理應該是比較可行的以上好謝謝次長曾經的委員還發言嗎什麼簡短一下好不好我們就不要再針對這一條因為好不好來"},{"start":15436.977,"end":15460.425,"text":"如果這個因為不受這個這是一個立法的技術而已不受中央行政機關組織基準法第幾條的規定那個只是立法的技術必這是必要的這第一個第二個要嘗試更好那就也要修也要修行政院組織行政院的組織法"},{"start":15465.145,"end":15473.289,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案件及審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件及審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件及審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件及審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件及審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件及審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案"},{"start":15500.464,"end":15501.165,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":15509.815,"end":15519.758,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民"},{"start":15538.843,"end":15546.207,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案"},{"start":15557.432,"end":15573.984,"text":"但正因為想照顧所以我們十幾個立法委員國會同仁希望能夠更周延因為我們訂出去的東西未來就是法律是全體國人都要適用的所以我是希望主席是不是有機會我們可以再有更好的更長的討論時間以上"},{"start":15576.687,"end":15596.345,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等19人�"},{"start":15602.731,"end":15619.47,"text":"這第一個第二個本席也認同不要在行政院組織法以外再規定行政院要設部會級的委員會這兩點我聲明這個立場謝謝好謝謝那專委走下來跟大家討論一下我們休息一分鐘"},{"start":15623.227,"end":15625.009,"text":"聽我主席說一句"},{"start":15642.108,"end":15659.727,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民"},{"start":15660.828,"end":15682.328,"text":"案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案 案。"},{"start":15685.972,"end":15696.085,"text":"案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案 案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具"},{"start":15704.215,"end":15722.181,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等21人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":15723.961,"end":15748.335,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案案件事項,其中一項是關於新住民基本法的名稱： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案件事項,其中一項是關於新住民基本法草案案件事項,其中一項是關於新住民基本法草案案件事項,其中一項是關於新住民基本法草案案件事項,其中一項是關於新住民基本法草案案件事項,其中一項是關於新住民基本法草案案件事項,其中一項是關於新住民基本法草案案件事項,其中一項是關於新住民"},{"start":15752.81,"end":15778.776,"text":"好 謝謝我們所有的委員真的非常的認真而且大家對新住民的權益真的也都大家都很認真的討論那不管是民眾黨不然國民黨不管是巧會委員或者是各位委員的版本其實大家都非常的希望新住民的權益被顧及到所以我們今天有做充分的這個第一次的意見交流所以呢主席"},{"start":15779.716,"end":15806.774,"text":"先讀一下本次會議所討論的各黨團和委員所提的新住民基本法草案等提案本期請內政部在會後也就是520之後請你們要提出你們的版本好不好在本次會議各黨團和委員提案的版本跟委員520之後之後對不對因為可以嗎好不好好"},{"start":15810.247,"end":15812.693,"text":"案。 本時期內政部於520號"},{"start":15816.356,"end":15843.288,"text":"520之後將本次會議各黨團和委員提案的版本跟委員發言所提出的相關新住民的遭遇還有他的現況的問題向行政院匯報並請行政院在520之後要提出新住民基本法相關草案本席會儘速排上議程我們再進行審查好不好這樣子很中性啦謝謝各位"},{"start":15849.612,"end":15850.593,"text":"案。 審查委員"},{"start":15867.606,"end":15891.864,"text":"最重要的是行政院版本一定要擺出你們的態度所以行政院版本一定要來好不好我們現在這個新住民的基本法草案我們現在討論到現在然後呢我們來審查一下鄭天才委員高丁、蘇梅盧、姓一、林倩琦等20人擬具原住民主基本法徵定第20條之一條文草案我們來審查這個法案請"},{"start":15893.906,"end":15894.166,"text":"提案"},{"start":15911.653,"end":15938.909,"text":"好 朝委 阿哥委員那針對鄭天才委員 高金素美委員 盧憲宇委員 李千玺委員等20位委員擬具的《原住民主基本法》徵定第21條之一的條文草案的部分我們嚴明會有三點意見做個回應第一個是《原住民主基本法》的立法體力就是針對我們原住民主各項權益的保障跟發展做基本性跟原則性的規範"},{"start":15940.35,"end":15940.751,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":15950.53,"end":15970.366,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":15970.526,"end":15997.215,"text":"案。 其回復取得處分、計劃、管理及利用等事項,另以法律定之。我們人民會也依據這個條文的授權,已經擬定了《原住民主保留地管理利用條例草案》,也在去年的111年3月17號已經送立法院來審議。那因為立法院第10屆立法委員任期已經屆期,所以該法案不續審。不過這個草案我們現在在"},{"start":16000.316,"end":16007.819,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．新住民權益保障法草案．新住民權益保障法草案案。"},{"start":16020.984,"end":16039.962,"text":"保留地管理利用條例草案,希望各委員支持。至於政委員等所提出的有關於三保條例三十七條條文內容,其實我們已經在剛剛提到的原住民主保留地管理利用條例草案都已納入。以上做說明,謝謝。好,非常謝謝古仲副主委。我們請鄭天才委員。"},{"start":16042.874,"end":16042.995,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":16057.714,"end":16064.979,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":16088.311,"end":16112.776,"text":"原住民族基本法剛才古仲副主委所講的原住民族基本法第20條的第三項是要定原住民族土地及海域法我們蔡總統在105年8月1號向原住民族道歉及承諾會很快的將原住民族基本法"},{"start":16113.723,"end":16139.19,"text":"所授權的原住民族土地及海域法但是這8年來送都沒有送來然後剛才所提到的原住民族保留地管理利用條例事實上以現在的這個草案來講根本沒有辦法因應現況而且是反而會影響到原住民的土地的潛意"},{"start":16139.95,"end":16167.066,"text":"就是因為原住民族基本法公布施行到現在20年以上了所以這麼久了我才不得不要把山坡地範圍以外的要先把它解決這個是不得不的一個做法就如同為什麼會把原住民保留地放在山坡地"},{"start":16168.632,"end":16185.01,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":16190.448,"end":16191.149,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":16208.24,"end":16222.743,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法�"},{"start":16235.106,"end":16259.887,"text":"政委員的問題就沒有了啦 對不對我只是從這一點基本法跟作用法那如果我們政委員說的啦說我們就是通過阿去協商齁那政委員阿如果他們其他的作用法好了之後我們這個還要回來修喔不然我們的基本法不好看喔基本法不好看喔"},{"start":16263.217,"end":16263.498,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":16270.615,"end":16298.185,"text":"好 那我想剛剛政委員所提到就是說我們所送的原來所送的《原住民主保障地管理利用條例草案》有不足的部分我想這個部分就是我們會盡速去研修因為我剛剛提到我們有五種委員的版本我們就一併納入那我們也說明說我們會盡速行程系報行政院來送委員會那原則上延期法盡速是多久你總是要讓我們大家清楚知道一下好不好"},{"start":16299.991,"end":16311.801,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件"},{"start":16327.173,"end":16349.926,"text":"嚴紀法可能在因為它是基本式基本性的條文規範好 謝謝好 謝謝我想呢剛剛那個民進黨的紅綠委員這個是非常的謝謝他也理解政天才委員還有召委我們對於原住民保留地的這個重視跟相關權益的保障所以呢紅綠委員說可以我們就今天送出委員會然後需要經過來那個黨團協商"},{"start":16356.431,"end":16381.151,"text":"討論事項按原住民主基本法正定第20條之1條的條文草案,以審查文據擬具審查報告提報院會討論。請問在場委員要不要經過黨團協商?要?好,謝謝。本案與院會討論的時候,有本席高金淑媛召委做補充的說明。"},{"start":16381.852,"end":16401.102,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民基本法草案．立法院第1會期內政委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民基本法草案．立法院第1會期內政委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民基本法草案．立法院第1會期內政委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民基本法草案．立法院第1會期內政委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民基本法草案．立法院第1會期內政委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新"},{"start":16405.845,"end":16411.15,"text":"案。 陸方針對開放大陸觀光客來台具體回應還有他的作為進行專案報告並被質詢。"},{"start":16427.555,"end":16453.437,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第1會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院等22人擬具:「新住民權�"},{"start":16455.116,"end":16475.716,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事宜、審查委員羅美玲等22人�"},{"start":16542.789,"end":16542.81,"text":"案。"}]}},{"id":"15857","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15857","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302ddcb0d1d3af5c18c1cb761654f0ebe352d3be8d109af184be4f63047350000ac3b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查行政院函請審議「道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一、第六十三條及第六十三條之二條文修正草案」案。\n【進行逐條審查】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-29","start_time":"2024-04-29T08:31:15+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第9次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":9,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-9"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:02:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":9045,"委員發言時間":"08:31:15 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部分那五十條第二款是有關於倒車未顯示燈光或不注意這個呃行人那第三款是大型車倒車"},{"start":2677.235,"end":2677.555,"text":"檢討第三項第15款"},{"start":2694.483,"end":2714.271,"text":"有五十五條第一項第一款那第一項第一款就是在隧道橋樑快車道這些相關這個違反臨時停車的這個行為那反反是這個300到600那第二款的部分是在交叉路口還有公車這個暫停等等的部分"},{"start":2714.991,"end":2737.722,"text":"議員．議員．議員"},{"start":2737.802,"end":2765.452,"text":"那另外要檢討刪除部分第16款是在55條第一項第一款第二款規定禁止臨時停車出手就是剛剛前第15款所報告的包括在這個橋樑隧道快車道還有包括在這個交叉路口10公尺公車後車停10公尺這邊前面是這個禁止臨時停車那禁止臨時停車就是不得停車那如果說這個停車的話那就是這個16款原來"},{"start":2766.032,"end":2782.654,"text":"檢討檢討"},{"start":2785.055,"end":2808.189,"text":"這個這個第三款跟這個第十款的一個部分那這個第十款是有關於這個占用身心障礙的部分這個部分大概法案都是在六百到一千二以上大概就是七條之一總共現行條文有檢討五款在最高法案一千兩百元以下您這個限縮不以民眾檢舉以上先做一個重點的報告"},{"start":2809.605,"end":2828.787,"text":"好謝謝交通部的說明林福山市長的說明那我們現在要請各位委員來表示意見那補充介紹林國成委員好那首先請陳書業委員"},{"start":2833.922,"end":2856.857,"text":"謝謝主席今天委員會就是針對有關這個交通違規檢舉的一個部分我們進行相關法令的一個修正這個議題我想在去年也是引起很多社會的一個紛擾那我們知道就是有關法令的一個制定我們基本上就是要維護這個社會秩序保障人民的生命財產安全"},{"start":2858.078,"end":2881.084,"text":"可是如果說當這個法令被過度運用我想也是造成了很多的一個紛擾就像這個檢舉魔人這是一般地方基層的一個反應就是說這個檢舉的人如果說過度的一個檢舉的時候真的也會造成社會的很多民怨那這個我們在基層也都接到很多民眾的一個反應"},{"start":2881.744,"end":2906.487,"text":"所以今天交通部針對這個檢舉的這個部分我們交通部目前的設計是針對就是沒有達到一千兩百元的這個違規的狀況這行為我們就是不檢舉這就是好像是一刀切的一個做法當然這樣子的目前這樣子的一個設計可能就交通單位就是我們交通部的"},{"start":2906.867,"end":2907.047,"text":"議員．答案"},{"start":2931.88,"end":2947.299,"text":"就是有關身障車位的這個意見因為我們知道就是目前就彰化縣來說領有身心障礙者專用停車證的就有一萬七千多人可是這個相對之下這個身障車位"},{"start":2948.42,"end":2972.472,"text":"就不到200個就100多個停車格這樣子的一個數量的一個比例真的是懸殊非常的大所以在這個部分我們要如何就是說未來在就是交通違規的這個部分我們如果說這個部分排除檢舉的話我們要如何去保障身心障礙者在這個身上車位的使用上"},{"start":2973.372,"end":2989.007,"text":"能夠不受影響這部分我們是不是請交通部也要去做一個比較周全的考慮謝謝好 謝謝陳書業委員等一下我們綜合幾個委員的意見之後再請交通部來做回應現在請洪森漢委員"},{"start":2992.957,"end":3010.249,"text":"主席今天謝謝交友會的排審我想這一次的修法我認為大家其實都很清楚在社會上面從不同角度其實是有不同的評價的"},{"start":3011.83,"end":3040.749,"text":"那我們要想辦法在這裡面求取一個平衡那這有幾點是我們會需要考慮的事情第一個事情就像剛剛蘇委員說的確實現在社會上面其實對於所謂檢舉某人這件事情其實會覺得是很不舒服的這個其實確實造成很多的紛擾那我們也聽到現在一些駕駛團體也特別表達其實在去年的修法下"},{"start":3041.89,"end":3067.161,"text":"很有可能我們其實有一些是因為我們道路系統或者是我們的交通設施的系統設計不良所以讓我們有很多的駕駛他就是很容易進到一個違法的情境或者是這個法律模糊地帶的情境那這時候如果他是因為整體的系統環境所造成的卻要罰他他其實也覺得非常的這個難以接受"},{"start":3068.101,"end":3095.378,"text":"那這些聲音我們都聽到了所以今天我其實有提出一個修正動議修正動議主要是針對三個點跟行政院不一樣我針對主要是針對檢舉的部分那我想大家都知道其實之所以為什麼會有很多當時有很多項目會開放檢舉的原因其實是對應到其實我們常常會有一些執法警力的不足那希望加強其實對於某一些樣態的制衡那我們這邊主要提出三點第一點是在"},{"start":3096.809,"end":3101.713,"text":"人行道跟騎車我先這邊因為我這邊寫了55條跟56條55條跟56條的主體其實就是騎車不包括機車齁騎車在人行道跟行川線上面臨時停車或停車齁"},{"start":3113.061,"end":3134.044,"text":"那的話是可以開放檢舉但我這邊有加了一個但書是騎樓不在此縣也就是騎樓是排除的所以之前大家有針對說騎樓停車部分這當然是一個爭議所以我們在我們的條文裡面是把它排除的所以在我的第14款跟第16款裡面特別針對人行道跟行穿線停車或臨時停車"},{"start":3135.806,"end":3151.341,"text":"14款是針對臨時停車16款是針對停車那7都不太實現一個是55條一個是56條對應到55條跟56條這是第一個部分第二個部分是不依順行方向臨時停車也簡單來說就是逆向停車"},{"start":3153.36,"end":3168.092,"text":"這個也是可以開放檢舉那第三個剛剛跟所有人講的一樣是針對如果是占用這個障礙者的停車位的話也是可以開放檢舉這是在我的第17款的部分那我提這三款基本上我認為這幾個樣態"},{"start":3171.334,"end":3194.767,"text":"都不太是我們因為我們道路系統設計不良而容易讓駕駛容易誤觸的違法範圍其實這幾個樣態都是蠻嚴重的我剛才說我的第14款跟第16款裡面是針對汽車不是針對機車因為汽車如果它停車在行川線或人行道其實這個影響是比較嚴重的"},{"start":3196.988,"end":3206.936,"text":"比機車來得更嚴重所以以上這是我提的七條之一的這個修正動議那希望給大家一併來做討論好黃澄漢委員發言完畢現在請林俊憲委員發言"},{"start":3218.479,"end":3234.316,"text":"好 謝謝主席其實我們今天的修法確實重點是在於第五十五條就是關於檢舉方面那其中呢第12款124款包括紅山委員的那個修正基本上主要都是針對所謂的維挺"},{"start":3236.699,"end":3261.87,"text":"委員會大概佔我們所有交通檢舉罰單幾乎快要佔的四分之一也就是說民眾最常觸犯的就是委員會那我們現在對委員會有很大的一個修改第一個就是有些是取消檢舉人第二個就是說政府其實我們也認為政府應該要也要善盡到自己的責任尤其交通部這裡"},{"start":3263.331,"end":3263.351,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":3283.616,"end":3308.915,"text":"到臺北市最繁華的商業區全部都紅線你知道人家怎麼臨時上下車也不能計程車也不能臨時停車嘛類似這些應該其實政府也要負起責任不能把所有責任丟給駕駛或丟給行人那另外剛剛生意委員提的那個修正那個棋樓原則上我是贊成啦因為棋樓也是民運很大的一個地方啦"},{"start":3310.984,"end":3335.31,"text":"對 對 對 但這排除就騎樓不再檢舉但是我們現行做法是騎樓部分管理有授權地方政府可以制定他的這是地方的條例啦所以我知道有些地方政府他在騎樓停車他有一定的規定例如他騎樓可以停車但是你要留兩米的空間或者是說他用時段你大概要"},{"start":3336.465,"end":3336.745,"text":"謝謝林委員發言完畢"},{"start":3367.326,"end":3375.258,"text":"謝謝主席其實剛剛接續那個競選委員提到的齁騎樓停車其實城鄉差距的確是不同啊"},{"start":3376.181,"end":3403.724,"text":"所以在台北市我知道幾乎都沒有那個騎樓停車了但是呢在全國各縣市在這一段時間大概至少有一年多了吧大家就飽受這個困擾那我想這個授權就是地方檢察機關就它有妨害交通有妨害那個危險有危險顧慮那個東西警察機關出動去把它排除嘛"},{"start":3404.424,"end":3430.205,"text":"那你如果說沒有影響安全沒有影響交通的狀況之下我是覺得我比較贊成就是就去除掉啦要不然現在造成很大很大的困擾而且你沒有影響到安全跟交通的又何必一定要去挑這個錯呢所以我是覺得就是說還是以這個為主那把那個權利就交給警察機關去處理就好謝謝"},{"start":3431.807,"end":3436.337,"text":"許智傑委員發言完畢請問魯明哲委員魯明哲委員發言完畢之後廖先強委員"},{"start":3445.189,"end":3464.83,"text":"好 謝謝主席我想針對於今天大家條例的幾條的修正案事實上上次在我們巡查的過程中我把我的主要意見表達出來了我個人是覺得這個現在包括地方政府跟很多的一個交通的一個設施確實存在一些"},{"start":3465.691,"end":3465.711,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":3482.768,"end":3503.135,"text":"整個修正一個方向方向我覺得有一些是確實要符合現況要等待我們所有的地方政府或者相關的交通設施成就到一定的一個過程我覺得再來把它倒回來滾動式檢討再說那但是有幾條一刀切我建議要我建議要把它拿掉啦第一個是"},{"start":3505.257,"end":3518.632,"text":"這個三十一條第六項就針對於這個安全帽我上次也講過這沒有什麼營業團體說我不要戴安全帽其實真的沒有人提案兩邊都沒有人提而且戴安全帽"},{"start":3519.713,"end":3520.774,"text":"第2個就是應該是第15項對吧 裡面"},{"start":3549.588,"end":3558.214,"text":"第十六 針對停車 停車的部分因為原來第五十五條裡面的 包括隧道"},{"start":3559.477,"end":3559.497,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":3581.678,"end":3599.564,"text":"但這個部分我覺得說到我覺得是沒有辦法容忍也是保障這個大家的生命還有行人穿越到斑馬線我覺得不合比例原則因為你不小心把正在穿越的人嚇到可能都要記兩點那你乾脆把車停在斑馬線上面"},{"start":3601.064,"end":3626.952,"text":"不能檢舉也不用祭典你擋到所有人穿越的權利的時候你不用我覺得這也很怪最後一個就是剛剛我們陳書遠委員特別說了這個應該是第17項這個裡面是第56條的中間第10款是身葬車位我覺得身葬車位非常少我也希望這一次在修法的過程中把它拿掉以上建議謝謝"},{"start":3628.532,"end":3631.435,"text":"當然其實在不管是多次我們委員會召開的會議都有再次強調"},{"start":3648.749,"end":3667.559,"text":"我本人的立場就是交通的改革循序漸進那如果說依照目前交通部的版本來修的話那可以說是完全是退回的原點那所以說因為有今天有交通部的版本以及蔡啟昌委員、洪森漢委員等四位委員的那個臨時提案修正動議"},{"start":3673.362,"end":3700.532,"text":"那我個人會認為這份修正動議是我比較覺得可以討論的部分當然我不是代表說我全面支持啦而是說在製造在這份修正動議各位委員立場應該是差不多的我們都有考慮到汽車族以外的一些民眾使用的權益包括我們在行車的時候不應該侵犯到行人的權益我們不應該侵犯到比較弱勢身心障礙者的一個權益所以我個人是"},{"start":3702.032,"end":3729.993,"text":"支持在55條第一項的部分要維持能夠檢舉那55條第二項的部分在修正動議上面沒有但我也是認為因為我們在公共交通站公共交通站的部分其實它已經是大眾公共運輸的部分了我們應該是要提供一個比較優質的公共運輸的環境所以說汽車交通站我認為應該要納入包括江沙路口江沙路口的部分"},{"start":3731.654,"end":3747.614,"text":"交叉入口部分因為很多行人穿越的時候他都在交叉入口那既然我們要保護行人的話如果有車輛在交叉入口臨時停車的話那其實對於行人穿越馬路也是相當危險的那所以說我會希望我個人的建議也是希望55條第二項也能夠維持民眾檢舉"},{"start":3751.058,"end":3773.904,"text":"五十五條第四項我個人當然也是支持維持檢舉的以及身心障礙者剛有提過的五十六條第十項剛剛有提到騎樓的部分因為剛修正東西有在騎樓不在此線的部分我是認為這個單數應該不要加入因為騎樓其實它也是一個行人通行的空間"},{"start":3777.385,"end":3806.505,"text":"各地方政府都會有騎樓停放的規定像台北市跟新北市是完全相反的台北市是原則禁止例外開放新北市是原則開放例外禁止那我覺得只要地方政府限定不能停的部分那就是認為地方政府認為那是行人通行非常重要的一個通行的路徑那應該比照人行道以及行人穿越道的部分應該只要維持能夠檢舉以上是我個人的意見"},{"start":3807.285,"end":3826.334,"text":"好,廖新祥委員發言完畢我做個補充說明廖新祥委員所提的第55條第一項或第二項、第四項其實那個是款那個不是項做個補充說明現在請林佩祥委員發言"},{"start":3828.295,"end":3849.95,"text":"主席我們各位委員針對這六十三條我覺得有一個在執行面上面的事情我們這邊在這次修法裡面沒有有點忽略到了其實我們都很清楚在從這個修正修正第一款的這個第二在在第五頁我們這邊就是已經知道了大大量進行舉發為舉舉發記違規點數版辦理規則作業然後以遠出裁罰機關行政量的這負荷所以這件事我們都很清楚說"},{"start":3858.295,"end":3873.011,"text":"很有可能是有人大量的檢舉而且可能是八十二十百分之二十的人造成百分之八十的檢舉那我們是不是可以在這次的修正上面來去做一個一定程度的一定程度的這個不要講管制就是一定程度的範圍比如說"},{"start":3874.472,"end":3901.228,"text":"我只是舉一個舉例因為實質上我們會遇到這樣的問題雖然不是在不只是給主管機關麻煩也是給執法機關麻煩比如說可能一天一次一個月三十次因為我們會看到有些人是一個月一年下來可能超過五百次的檢舉那其實是非常態的我們支持說民眾有檢舉的能力然後讓我們的交通更好可是我們不太支持這種相對來講"},{"start":3902.549,"end":3903.51,"text":"謝謝林佩祥委員現在請林國成委員發言"},{"start":3921.465,"end":3938.604,"text":"我講基本上今天這個修法當然重點我在看交通部他是依法有計一千兩百塊以下而來做這些但是我們所有的委員是考慮到有些嚴重性"},{"start":3939.545,"end":3959.304,"text":"以否的問題所以這個部分我第一個建議我第一個建議就是交通部這裡有沒有可能比較嚴重性的包括殘障包括比較非常嚴重的東西你們研究一下把它拉高划款就不再此現所以這個也是一個方法"},{"start":3960.244,"end":3981.902,"text":"至於其他如果大家沒有意見當然我沒有意見我比較支持蔡副院長齊昌他這些所有的罰單檢舉以否完完全全說實在執法當然要有一個標準可是所有違規通通交通規都說交通設計"},{"start":3983.263,"end":3996.151,"text":"你叫他不違規你就不違規可是現在的情況前審裡面不違規很難一定是違規所以我還是比較這個我們蔡其昌副院長的附帶結議這裡你們還要去檢討"},{"start":4000.013,"end":4023.572,"text":"雖然不能檢舉但是你還是要有配套方式去改進他自然你交通設施修訂好了做好了以後他違規就很明確你現在是每一個交通的設計完全都是讓人家這個違規之現況所以我建議第一個如果你們把這個"},{"start":4025.534,"end":4041.127,"text":"這麼嚴重就不是一千兩百塊把他拉高這個問題就跳脫第二個如果真的通通通過了你這個交通交通的這個工程設計一定要令地方政府盡快的去做"},{"start":4042.108,"end":4060.427,"text":"這樣的話才有辦法修法以後修法以後這個完善的配套這個部分我是建議交通部思考一下朝這兩個方向這樣的話可能會比較符合整個修法的精神以上好 謝謝現在請徐富奎委員發言"},{"start":4064.744,"end":4082.609,"text":"謝謝主席我想今天我們針對道交條例來繼續做審查那因為之前的巡查過程裡面剛剛我們幾位委員提到針對騎機車不帶安全帽跟占用身障車位這兩點我想是民間比較帶一個反彈的聲浪那這一點"},{"start":4083.57,"end":4098.648,"text":"陳友,剛剛幾位委員表達的其實這個奇蹟車代安全帽是一個對我們生命安全的一個保障那針對身障者的一個車位的佔用我想這些也會影響到我們身障者的權益那這兩點我們希望能夠做排除的一個處理"},{"start":4100.089,"end":4124.137,"text":"另外根據內政部警政署的統計交通違規事件有六成是因為違規停車造成所以今天我們蔡其昌委員跟彭商委員提出這些我想我們的表達支持因為我們的停車空間不足除了造成所謂的違規案件之外也造成所謂一個商家營運的一個問題像本期的選區裡面就有很多的商家反映"},{"start":4124.657,"end":4152.728,"text":"因為我們的停車空間不足他們連廠商卸貨都被祭奠了這個也抱怨年年所以其實我們在這個執法過程裡面應該真的要同步針對交通部要針對我們的地方政府應該針對整個玩硬體包括車格也好針對一個交通耗資的一個設置標籤的一個設置應該盡快處理要不然這個處分之後其實我想還是民意沒辦法改善"},{"start":4153.448,"end":4175.626,"text":"另外警政處的統計2023年的檢舉案件高達869萬件那這個造成我們警察同仁很大的負擔那所以這次我們在法案當中有特別提到不在民眾檢舉的一個違規事項那民眾還是可以透過報案的方式讓我們的同仁到場處理這個部分我想"},{"start":4176.747,"end":4199.344,"text":"但是警方同樣也有一些抱怨就是說這個取締100件的交通違規進一次嘉獎但是要累積300件才有第二次的嘉獎但是只要有一個重大疏失就進一次審計所以這個造成一個賞罰不公那是不是針對這部分我們交通部跟警方從一個針對相關的一個措施能夠平衡一下所謂一個獎懲的一個處理以上說明"},{"start":4202.926,"end":4216.338,"text":"基本上各個委員都已經有過發言那宏偉我們是不是等交通部做說明之後再來做第二輪的一個發言我想對於道交條例啊"},{"start":4217.776,"end":4236.984,"text":"大家都有共識就是交通安全是最高的原則但也必須兼及兼顧人民的基本生活的運作而且我們對於相關交通的耗資相關的規定相關的耗資相關的交通的"},{"start":4238.444,"end":4251.951,"text":"設施不足的狀況其實各位委員都了解認為必須督促交通部必須要盡快的一個改善所以有蔡紀昌委員所提的相關的一個提案"},{"start":4254.013,"end":4269.989,"text":"其實經過大家的討論不管是公聽會或者是在巡打的時候以及今天的相關的逐條討論都可以明確的看出交通委員會的委員認為以一千兩百元來一刀切"},{"start":4271.09,"end":4293.434,"text":"是不對的應該是以相關的風險的程度以及相關的執法的狀況來做一個衡量那這是一個原則第二剛才聽各位所言大家對於比較有共識的就是機車駕駛人或貨載坐人未依規定戴安全帽就是第31條第6項這個要維持檢舉大家都有"},{"start":4298.459,"end":4313.83,"text":"一樣的共識另外就是身心障礙專用停車位違規停車第56條第一項第10款這兩個部分大家都有一致的共識這個都要維持相關的檢舉那其他相關的討論的內容"},{"start":4315.251,"end":4328.995,"text":"不管是陳淑月委員﹖紅森漢委員﹖林俊憲委員﹖魯明哲委員﹖廖謙祥委員﹖林佩祥委員﹖林國成委員﹖徐屋葵委員都有相關的這些意見我們現在就請交通部來做統一的說明"},{"start":4336.152,"end":4351.239,"text":"報告委員會大概針對剛剛9個委員所提的相關的意見我大概這邊處於做一個說明首先整體的部分的話成為我剛剛這個主席所報告的部分裡面這次檢討限縮民眾這個不可不讓民眾檢舉的部分"},{"start":4354.941,"end":4367.145,"text":"那其中有關於未戴安全帽跟這個占用身心隔位的部分在公聽會還有4月18號相關這個專案報告的時候部長大概也表達說這兩項基本上是這個認同可以這個維持讓這個民眾來做一個檢舉"},{"start":4371.926,"end":4387.806,"text":"那接下來剛剛紅色愛委員所提到的一個部分那就是修正動議裡面委員有提到就是說針對人行道還有這個人行穿越道的部分這個為此應該讓我們做這個檢舉但是其樓這個部分排除那剛剛委員有特別提到"},{"start":4388.106,"end":4401.591,"text":"就是說修正動議的部分是針對四輪以上的汽車是不包括機車那如果說是這樣子的修正動議的話那這個原來但書這個但書裡面可能就是說要把這個機車也這個加進來因為在56條還有15條這個臨時停車那個汽車是有包含四輪以上的汽車跟這一個兩輪的這個這個機車"},{"start":4409.514,"end":4424.629,"text":"所以對所以建議如果說是朝這個方向做這個檢討的話但書可能就是但機車及這個騎樓不在這個此線這個部分大概是針對委員這邊的一個修正提案做進一點補充"},{"start":4425.51,"end":4447.494,"text":"那另外剛剛林俊炫委員跟許知潔委員所提到騎樓停車的一個部分那因為七條之一是針對未符合規定等於是違規的檢舉那騎樓可以停車有兩個層次第一個部分就是剛剛所提到有一些這個是透過標示標線騎樓已經劃了那本來就是可以停車他停車是合以規定"},{"start":4447.654,"end":4477.654,"text":"議員．"},{"start":4477.654,"end":4492.739,"text":"議員．"},{"start":4492.739,"end":4492.919,"text":"議員．答案"},{"start":4513.027,"end":4539.514,"text":"的一個工作那另外也這個報告騎樓這一塊的話確實這個呃城鄉差距會很大可能在這個臺北市或這個地方騎樓這個停車的情況這個可能不太那個但是在鄉下的部分大家自家騎樓停車那也是這一次這個就是說人行道因為人行道有包括騎樓人行道納入民眾檢體之後在鄉下地區大家這個所面臨到在自家前面這個呃這個停車"},{"start":4541.334,"end":4557.427,"text":"那一天20小時都被檢舉那這次修法就是要解決這樣子的一個這個實務上因為停車環境未真完備而衍生出來的一個課題那另外剛剛這個就是說李明哲委員所提到裡面"},{"start":4557.807,"end":4563.154,"text":"委員提到隧道的部分隧道的部分其實在55條或者是56條裡面包括圓環快車道隧道等等部分那當然"},{"start":4576.129,"end":4602.104,"text":"這個稱呼委員所提到這個是相對風險比較高但是也必須要考慮到這個民眾要檢舉這樣子的行為的話他自己本身檢舉也必須要停留住停留在那個地方相對的是更最危險像在這幾個地方的話照理講就是檢查要立即到現場去做一個這個排除所以我們會這個建議就是說這個就是說隧道的那個部分其實如果說開放民眾檢舉"},{"start":4603.405,"end":4630.422,"text":"另外是衍生出來民眾在卷起他要去收集這些相關資料的部分另外對民眾來講可能也是另外一個這個高風險的一個行為那這個廖天祥委員所提到的部分我想這個如果說是以這個洪委員所提的修正這個動議我想待會尊重這個委員會這邊的一個討論但是如果說這個繼續維持這個五十五條第一項第一款第二款"},{"start":4631.303,"end":4655.171,"text":"就是說這個相關人行道這些都還有這個交叉路口公車照顧站這些相關這個林婷跟這個吳國廷車這個檢舉的部分的話我想這幾個項目也大概就是這一次這個提案要修要修法要限縮的一個這個重點那這個數量真的是非常非常的多我想說這個建議這個各位委員可以再做一個這個"},{"start":4657.872,"end":4675.9,"text":"這個思考另外就是說林佩霞委員所提到說在七條之一可不可以針對民眾的檢舉來限縮一個這個次數等等的部分那這個部分的話我跟委員這個報告大概就是說如果說以目前這個統一出來的一個這個部分大家所講的這個檢舉檔案的部分"},{"start":4677.401,"end":4698.156,"text":"大概最多一個人一年檢舉一萬四千多件平均這個一個月一萬七以上那地域性差異也非常非常大那如果說在七條之一要去增加一個說民眾一天可以檢舉一件兩件的不過我想這個又是一個大家廣泛討論的課題可能"},{"start":4698.556,"end":4724.737,"text":"光是要決定這個次數就有點困難所以比較建議還是回到項目的一個檢討那針對林國成委員所提到的這些相關的部分我想有關於完備道路交通的部分就是縣省交通部跟各地方政府也一直做這件事情對於地方政府我們是希望在今年六月底之前"},{"start":4725.197,"end":4751.347,"text":"相關道路合理必要的這個停車提供上下客戶的一個臨庭的一個這個環境希望能夠把它做一個完成那這個部分的話我們每個兩個每兩個月都邀請這個地方政府來這個開會討論這個臺北市跟新北市我們已經這一個這一個檢核過了那在上禮拜五這個行政院大家您修到之後我們大概也把這些相關各地方政府辦理的這個情形"},{"start":4751.907,"end":4752.287,"text":"請部長來做補充說明"},{"start":4783.134,"end":4799.168,"text":"我針對騎樓再做一個說明騎樓我們這次是取消民眾檢舉但是警察還是可以去開單但是我們互以剛才林縣委所談的互以地方政府他可以比如說如果留下一名五空間他可以不執法"},{"start":4800.179,"end":4821.374,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":4821.654,"end":4839.064,"text":"這是比較胡亂一點但是我們第二個也是希望地方政府在設定警察不執法的時候的標準一定要留下行人空間這大概是我們的建議好部長補充說明會議現在各位委員來請魯明哲委員"},{"start":4842.745,"end":4863.419,"text":"對 我只是回應一下 謝謝主席 這個剛剛講睡覺那個事情 這個現在檢舉人用什麼工具 這個交通部應該非常清楚還有誰停下來 停在後面去照一張相 沒有啦 現在所有的前後左右的"},{"start":4864.119,"end":4864.399,"text":"我剛在這樣說明,謝謝"},{"start":4892.588,"end":4898.831,"text":"好 謝謝魯明哲委員其他委員有沒有要做補充的說明來蔡吉昌委員好 謝謝主席謝謝各位委員這個我幫洪森漢委員聯署了這個修正"},{"start":4914.182,"end":4939.797,"text":"本質上其實對於這個條例的修法本席沒有特別一定堅持我們的第一次修法包括草野各政黨在第一次修法的時候競相加碼把這個法修到最後在面臨執行面的時候民眾怨聲載道"},{"start":4941.658,"end":4964.971,"text":"其實目標沒有錯目標大家很清楚也很遠大希望台灣能夠擺脫行人地獄這種不雅的稱號其實這個目標我覺得也很好但是我們會面臨到一個很嚴重的問題就是在執行起來你就會發現我們會出現那個不合理的現象"},{"start":4966.226,"end":4992.701,"text":"那這個不合理的現象就導致實際民眾從他的生活到他的工作權都受到威脅那也因為這種檢舉魔人竟然也臺灣也不少這種人所以這個就是在執法面不合理的現象所以才會面臨今天第二次就剛修去年剛修完今年又要拿出來討論因為民眾實在抱怨太多了好"},{"start":4994.368,"end":5008.859,"text":"這樣的一個問題其實很困難為什麼我說對於同仁的提案我沒有很特別堅持那要我連署的我也覺得只要合理我都因為為什麼我剛剛講過這間房子結構有問題然後我們現在在討論要怎麼裝修其實怎麼裝修都是有問題因為結構有問題"},{"start":5018.294,"end":5038.453,"text":"所以本席為什麼會做一個附帶決議就是我們企圖啊在這個房子可不可以在結構上我們再加把勁在結構上再多一點努力我們要不讓大家這個不能臨庭不能什麼那我們就優先的把停車場蓋住了"},{"start":5040.08,"end":5061.706,"text":"我們就把所有商店必須要讓商家可以經營讓這些送貨員可以臨庭卸貨的地方要把它規劃的清清楚楚我們對於號誌對於標線現行各縣市政府到處大家各自為政這些問題要把它解決"},{"start":5062.974,"end":5080.467,"text":"這個叫做防止的結構所以如果防止的結構本身有問題我們一直在裝修上面斤斤計較那其實最終不管你怎麼修啦都會有很多人不滿或者表示他的權益受損但是呢又不能不修"},{"start":5081.909,"end":5100.727,"text":"因為現實啊 這個從去年執法到現在檢舉謀人上萬件 這個是什麼數字啊 我也曾經私下問過 問過那個 比較會關心檢舉的朋友 問他說 啊如果這樣 這個人要不要工作"},{"start":5102.256,"end":5115.528,"text":"這檢舉模擬他不是每天睡覺就開始執行檢舉這個事情才有辦法創造這個數字我是不知道啦 因為我不敢檢舉過 我不知道在檢舉這程序跟他要花多少時間去做多少累積達成上萬件的這個檢舉量"},{"start":5121.906,"end":5143.744,"text":"那所以我們會包括工作權嘛我們祭典的制度讓人家本來工作司機已經很辛苦了結果我們的祭典制度又導致人家連工作權都沒有了失業了全家陷入困難所以不修不行不討論不修法不行所以我們必須要很艱困的在"},{"start":5145.065,"end":5166.677,"text":"結構不是很完整的情況底下我們現行只能漸進跟合理的就我們求一個漸進跟合理啦那長遠來講台灣還是要擺脫行人地獄但是要擺脫行人地獄看起來我們要下猛要一時間要立刻讓他達成我看這個是實務上面是不可行的所以"},{"start":5167.786,"end":5187.461,"text":"待會討論無論是要不要通過行政院的版本或者洪森漢委員所提的這個版本本席都沒有很強烈的堅持至於我提的這個附帶決議剛剛林國成委員也提到了他也很認同本席的看法所以我是覺得這種結構性這種討論台灣交通這種結構性的問題或許我們也應該多下一點功夫"},{"start":5194.106,"end":5218.097,"text":"我知道交通部其實就已經開始做了但是就我所知道應該還有一些地方政府至今進度落後因為我們只能在法上面方向上面規範但怎麼去執行地方政府能不能去落實到底哪裡停車線要怎麼劃林亭這個卸貨要怎麼處理這些涉及到實際的執行面"},{"start":5219.938,"end":5240.145,"text":"那我也希望交通部再跟地方政府加把勁看要怎麼要求地方政府能夠快速的來面對所以結構性的東西趕快進行調整那我們才可以早一日擺脫行人地獄這個惡名謝謝好 蔡啟昌委員發言完畢那交通部這邊也要做補充說明嗎"},{"start":5241.657,"end":5265.018,"text":"那剛才相關的不管是黃勝岸委員、蔡吉昌委員相關的這些修正動議都有做文字的修訂那我們休息15分鐘請交通部跟相關的委員針對修法的內容以及所提出的修正動議相關的文字的修訂來做協商以及溝通現在休息15分鐘"},{"start":5267.455,"end":5267.475,"text":"議員．委員講過"},{"start":5284.168,"end":5284.789,"text":"往中請"},{"start":5317.749,"end":5319.33,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5329.139,"end":5334.602,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5351.169,"end":5351.89,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5380.846,"end":5381.546,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5417.739,"end":5423.204,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5437.035,"end":5459.392,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5488.307,"end":5491.049,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5496.793,"end":5498.555,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5514.701,"end":5529.92,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5534.658,"end":5534.898,"text":"主席"},{"start":5554.506,"end":5555.327,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5567.402,"end":5568.302,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":5595.298,"end":5596.619,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5624.771,"end":5625.512,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5647.223,"end":5649.385,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5681.231,"end":5685.619,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5697.297,"end":5706.581,"text":"市長,現在查驗5月18號的資料,你可能要請陳軍趕快跑受傷,適度的有些可能放棄,因為我看他跑緊腳就一直想說受傷沒有劇本"},{"start":5715.452,"end":5715.712,"text":"他有幾個議題"},{"start":5740.334,"end":5754.452,"text":"但是你可以啊 因為受傷分析有限時比較多的就是拿資格嘛對 我們不用特別計較就是拿資格 倒是你說假如委員還 審查委員還是說欸好 那你請 為什麼台中市剩下那麼多 到時候再"},{"start":5755.473,"end":5760.819,"text":"有幾個議題我找到回去的時候,特別真的這個議題可能要慶豐,要完整"},{"start":5771.03,"end":5772.011,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5803.411,"end":5812.736,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5822.489,"end":5838.097,"text":"不過我覺得還好啦,他實際面積出一些負面報告應該可以應該可以啦,區委員的應該可以啦區委員的應該可以接受啦,就遵照辦理"},{"start":5854.462,"end":5854.882,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5885.964,"end":5905.996,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5914.701,"end":5922.784,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5941.135,"end":5948.476,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5968.053,"end":5978.098,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5998.08,"end":6021.852,"text":"議員會議員會議員會"},{"start":6023.166,"end":6042.562,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6059.358,"end":6085.113,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6090.435,"end":6099.633,"text":"繼續開會"},{"start":6100.502,"end":6119.016,"text":"剛才休息時間交通部與本會委員進行意見的交換有最新的一個版本已經出來請在彈幕來顯示也請林福山司長詳細的來做一個說明再請委員來表達意見"},{"start":6144.279,"end":6144.799,"text":"主席還有這個"},{"start":6148.411,"end":6171.399,"text":"各位委員剛剛就是說大家聽取各位委員的意見之後我們大概以行政院的版本跟紅色漢委員的版本做一個整理大概幾個重點的部分第一就是大家有共識的部分有關於這個第31條第6項未帶安全帽這個部分就是仍然維持讓民眾檢舉"},{"start":6172.619,"end":6180.731,"text":"那也就是這個原來第三款的部分就是第七條之一第三款的部分第31條第六項就這個為此這是第一點這個處理意見接下來這個第二點的一個部分的話就是"},{"start":6188.226,"end":6205.637,"text":"在這個第十四款的這個部分就是紅山委員所提在五十五條第一項第一款與人行道及行人穿越道這個臨時停車但機車及騎樓不在這個此線這個部分是有關於第十四款的部分那"},{"start":6206.417,"end":6228.285,"text":"第三點處理部分就是有關於不依順行這個臨時停車部分仍然維持民眾檢舉這個在這個就是新增在第15款第55條第1項第4款之不依順行方向臨時停車就是逆向行駛這個臨時停車的部分那第4點的一個部分就是有關於這個"},{"start":6230.626,"end":6254.144,"text":"原來這個就是人行道及人行穿越道不得臨時停車那自然也屬於這個不得停車的部分那第16款就是在56條第一項第一款於人行道及人行穿越道停車但機車及騎樓不在此限那也就是說這個除了騎樓之外這個人行道及人行穿越道違規停車能維持讓民眾這個檢舉但是機車不包括這個在內"},{"start":6257.486,"end":6283.282,"text":"那最後一項的部分就是有關於大家要共識的這個占用身心格位的部分就是第十七款第五十六條第一項第十款這個第五十六條第一項第十款就是占用身心障礙的停車格位能讓維持讓民眾檢舉那原來這個第二項是併排停車那本來就是這個讓民眾檢舉的項目那以上大概是整整大家剛剛這個討論的一個修正的一個這個處理"},{"start":6287.779,"end":6290.36,"text":"好,請問在座委員有沒有意見?好,請廖謙祥委員好,謝謝召委員這個剛剛當然市長有來討論但是我並沒有說我答應他這樣子的一個講法我是針對第五十五條"},{"start":6308.208,"end":6329.287,"text":"市長剛好來跟我討論第五十五條第一項第一款跟第二款那第二款的部分如果說大家都建議拿掉的話那我不會堅持這點我不會堅持但是第一款第一項的部分齊樓的部分我還是認為這個既然地方政府已經有"},{"start":6330.688,"end":6333.449,"text":"《立法院第11屆第12會期交通管理處罰條例第16條之二條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6354.376,"end":6354.957,"text":"請洪森翰委員"},{"start":6371.516,"end":6385.814,"text":"就我的理解因為這當然建設到立法技術之所以當時在我的修正動員裡面會把7樓給放進去的部分是因為確實7樓是有城鄉差距而且地區差距很大的狀況"},{"start":6387.236,"end":6405.812,"text":"那中南部坦白說有非常非常到目前為止還有非常多車他其實是還是把7樓視為一個停車的空間雖然他不是劃合法的停車格這個狀況其實是有差所以7樓確實是爭議這是為什麼我把7樓給排除的情況但我這邊跟交通部確認一個訊息齁"},{"start":6407.774,"end":6434.349,"text":"以現在我們這樣排除的做法其實地方政府還是可以自定管理的原則的對不對所以反而我是把棋樓給包括進去可能地方政府才是沒有空間的可是我把棋樓在條文裡面給排除這個排除的做法其實地方政府還是可以在他自己的自治條例裡面或他自己的這個行政規範裡面去定定他要怎麼去管理他可能要時段分時段的管理或哪些是原則哪些是例外"},{"start":6434.949,"end":6444.216,"text":"地方政府還是有權限可以管所以這並沒有要架空或者是要覆蓋掉地方政府所有管轄的權限這部分我跟交通部再確認一下這個事情謝謝來請陳樹葉委員"},{"start":6448.974,"end":6467.346,"text":"謝謝主席就是針對這個棋樓的部分我是贊同那個洪森漢委員的這樣子的一個做法因為真的棋樓的狀況有城鄉差距而且有不同區域的一個差距你看像目前我的選區裡面就有那個民眾來陳情"},{"start":6469.087,"end":6486.51,"text":"議員．"},{"start":6487.15,"end":6511.28,"text":"結果我們幫他關心之後那警方的回覆是說他只要順向停在他的門口不要停到其樓上去說順向停的話是不算違規可是那民眾他的狀況就是說他的這個就是門面他的車子如果順向停的話他等於是他的車頭車尾就是會妨礙到隔壁鄰居的門口的出入了"},{"start":6514.941,"end":6515.221,"text":"請林俊憲委員"},{"start":6541.431,"end":6568.58,"text":"謝謝其實我們這樣的修改以後齊樓違規還是不可以只是必須要由警察來開單才可以地方政府仍然可以制定地方的管理齊樓的狀況你所謂的城鄉差距就可以由各地不同的縣市政府來處理另外除了真的齊樓有沒有違憑以外齊樓這種停車檢舉更多的就是所謂民眾對立"},{"start":6570.24,"end":6589.573,"text":"有那種惡意檢舉的齁就整天因為警方一定有相關的機率就比如這條街的檢舉他不會只有一次喔每一次這條街或一個月來給你檢舉十幾次最慘的是誰是警察啦警察就疲於奔命啦而且那個案件會非常多"},{"start":6590.743,"end":6613.642,"text":"所以我們現在不是縱容騎樓為庭而是騎樓我們就不再讓就是說是要必須要有警察開單在予以處罰那同時繼續讓地方的縣市政府就制定適合自己的一個騎樓能夠停車的一個狀況好 謝謝來 其他委員有沒有意見我們請交通部來做說明"},{"start":6616.032,"end":6635.401,"text":"呃……呃……呃……呃……"},{"start":6636.282,"end":6653.259,"text":"對對對都還是可以去那個那反而是講說如果說在這邊不排除其肉的話其實以我個人的一個這個看法大概啦所有這個包括六都除了這個臺北市之外包括新北就是說合併有一些"},{"start":6653.96,"end":6653.98,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":6669.037,"end":6692.174,"text":"環境未完善之前確實是一個這個我們必須要這個解決的一個這個課題那剛剛這個蘇惠文有提到就是說這個不一順行方向停車那個部分那個斜差的部分其實這個部分不一順行的部分的話最主要是路邊因為路邊都有這個車型的方向所以你那個車頭只要停的不對那個一定是這個逆向行駛到那邊所以"},{"start":6693.857,"end":6704.056,"text":"對對對那個應該是針對這個路邊的部分那如果說剛剛委員所提到可能這個自家門口騎了那個部分基本上大概沒有所謂不依順行這樣子的一個課題"},{"start":6707.132,"end":6731.202,"text":"可能你有誤解我的說法他的狀況是他的那個住家的那個門面的寬度不夠寬所以他車子如果是順向停車停在他門口就是不要斜斜停到起樓上去的話他就是會妨礙到左右鄰居的門口的出入所以他就是必須把他車子斜停到起樓上去才不會妨礙到左右鄰居的門口的出入這樣你懂嗎"},{"start":6736.476,"end":6752.244,"text":"議員）"},{"start":6753.088,"end":6773.819,"text":"我跟委員報告一下其實委員所提到的這個課題基本上是屬於騎樓違規停車的部分那所以如果說把這個騎樓違規停車這個排除這個當然騎樓如果說這個不能依歸就是說地方政府沒有去做規範他是屬於不能這個停車的部分的話他停車當然是這個違規"},{"start":6775.16,"end":6795.881,"text":"但是如果說這邊這個排除民眾檢舉那個部分的話就是由警察到場來做一個處理所以剛剛才一直這個報告就是說基本上在城鄉殺菌比較相像地方的話就是我們講的自家前騎樓停車的一個課題現在是比較嚴重的一個這個部分而且是屬於這個檢舉達人"},{"start":6798.022,"end":6816.732,"text":"檢舉最多的違規案件數所以在這次運版的一個部分是希望說能夠排除那紅山委員提案的一個部分的話大概也是有做到這個部分的考量所以才建議就是說棋樓的部分那如果說棋樓這個部分排除民眾檢舉的部分的話其實剛剛蘇貴委員所提到的部分在實務上面的這個問題就會減少非常多"},{"start":6819.912,"end":6848.079,"text":"好請問各位委員有沒有要再補充說明請問廖欣祥委員有要做補充說明嗎好那我們也尊重廖欣祥委員然後這個部分我們就先保留等一下來好請說明因為現在騎樓都有各地方政府不一樣的民情那也有各不一樣地方政府他設立允許停車跟不允許停車的一個的一個規範"},{"start":6849.266,"end":6877.585,"text":"那如果說真的要短期間內真的不建議就是要把就是造成多民怨的話那我們是不是給地方政府一個時間一年的時間那希望他把比如說因為其實現在地方政府很容易去訂一個規範比如說你現在要留150公分也可以你要留90公分也可以那或者說你檢舉檢舉的時候你警方到底怎麼去確認90還150其實這個地方政府"},{"start":6878.547,"end":6900.495,"text":"都很有他的一個裁量的空間他的一個行政．你說一個民眾檢舉一個違規停車好了那假設這個地方政府是要需要保留90公分的話那如果說你沒有辦法證明90公分的話那實際上他可能就是舉發不成立那這個其實就是端看地方政府他有沒有這個決心要來維持氣候的上空"},{"start":6901.155,"end":6918.072,"text":"那所以說我會如果說委員就是不同地方民情的話我建議我希望好這一年內好這一年內循序漸進這一年內好我們把它拿掉那我希望在一年後能夠恢復之類的我不知道這條有沒有辦法怎麼來寫這樣子"},{"start":6920.873,"end":6925.836,"text":"現在的一米五以新北來講它是化了整齊綫那這個是地方政府自己要去做的就是整齊綫化出來所以它也不會在那邊兩幾公分"},{"start":6941.323,"end":6960.06,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6960.998,"end":6962.859,"text":"昨年修法以後騎樓被檢舉的案子很多名言很大"},{"start":6991.08,"end":6995.881,"text":"當時我們指引也給地方這樣做了,因為全國各地方都不太,連新北本身的城鄉都差很多。"},{"start":7012.348,"end":7041.013,"text":"這個部分我再跟我報告一下就是說地方對於騎樓要規定這些相關的部分都可以去做但是因為這一條是屬於這個違反規定民眾檢舉的部分那我舉個例子比如說在台北市的市中心那基本上他路外路邊都有化機車停車格位所以他可以要求機車退出這個騎樓所以他規定騎樓不能停車那只要騎樓停車民眾就可以檢舉警察就可以這個開單但是回過頭來剛剛講的一個部分城鄉這個差距"},{"start":7041.493,"end":7041.513,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":7058.143,"end":7075.048,"text":"對地方政府可以這個開放但是地方政府如果說這一個還沒有完整規劃的話就變成說違規的執法那這個希望警察機關來執法那這個如果說現在是民眾可以檢選項目就造成失誤大家的一個情況每個這個就是說"},{"start":7076.869,"end":7102.978,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7103.398,"end":7103.898,"text":"現在處理第63條請交通部說明"},{"start":7124.268,"end":7145.784,"text":"第六十三條修正的部分的話大概有修正兩個重點那第一項的一個這個部分就是條例修正成在第二行的部分就是違反這個本條例的規定除了依規定處罰法之外然後原則上這個經當場取發然後才這個得依這個依委員長度來這個祭典"},{"start":7147.125,"end":7163.057,"text":"那原來原條文的一個部分就是包括這個進行舉報的部分都須予以記點那修正的一個部分就是說有關於這個未來有關於進行舉報那裡面進行舉報就包括這個警方的科技執法還有民眾這個檢舉之後的這個進行舉報都這個排除這個記點之外"},{"start":7168.021,"end":7190.961,"text":"那最主要是因為這個除了當場攔檢之外其他進行許可都沒辦法當場確認這個駕駛人那也造成現在實務所謂這個祭典黃牛或者是說一般民眾私下這個就是冒用不實這個駕駛人的一個這個現象那第二項修正的一個重點大概就是說原來這個一年計12點必須調扣駕駛時照2個月那"},{"start":7194.244,"end":7220.729,"text":"在原來的規定裡面是講說那一年你有兩點智慧獎期這個扣底的一個機會那考量這個實施之後那一年12點的一個這個部分那大概也有很多社會各界的一個反應所以這個建議就是說原來一年一次兩點那希望能夠增加這一次變成一年兩次然後四點這個違憲然後來這個扣底那以上大概是這兩個修正重點"},{"start":7223.91,"end":7249.796,"text":"好 謝謝來林玉琴委員如果六十三條這樣子改的話當然我們說要全部的進行舉發我們現在考量當然沒辦法可是有兩個我覺得可能要去考慮的就是一直在提就是說今天我們還是要從嚴重的來做處理尤其是闖紅燈跟嚴重超速"},{"start":7250.476,"end":7277.835,"text":"那他們都事實上會是造成而且這種行為大概就是在重複而且傷害性這麼的高致死率這麼高的時候那加上交通部過去講說因為考慮到冒名頂替還有違規祭典的黃牛跟案件量過高可是公務總局早就已經在2023年就已經有開發程式去防堵交通部所擔心的理由那所以我認為43條跟53條如果把它排除"},{"start":7280.057,"end":7282.319,"text":"來,其他委員有沒有意見請問您也請委員有沒有相關的修正動議"},{"start":7316.06,"end":7343.06,"text":"請交通部來做說明剛剛我想這個就是說進行舉發的部分這次會來做檢討不與這個納入的部分最主要就是真正考慮到就是說實務上衍生這個祭典黃牛然後另外就是說其實一般人裡面這個先生拿太太、太太拿先生或是這個拿這個其他的人來做這個規則祭典是大家普遍都已經有看到的一個這個現象"},{"start":7344.821,"end":7360.405,"text":"另外一個部分剛剛委員所提到就是說這個重紅燈跟這個嚴重超速40公里這個以上那在處罰條例裡面其實就是說對於各種不同違規行為基本上是有各種不同評價的處罰比如說重紅燈他是這個1800到5400塊的一個罰碗他本身這個違規行為罰碗就非常重"},{"start":7368.047,"end":7391.674,"text":"那第一個部分像這個超速40公里以上這個我們歸類到危險駕駛這個是6000到36000元的一個這個滑板是這個很重但是我舉個例子說像這個超速這個40公里這個以上的一個部分第一個滑板非常重第二個他的車輛那輛車子吊扣牌照6個月"},{"start":7392.654,"end":7412.21,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":7412.99,"end":7435.918,"text":"欸這個處罰啦那那剛剛這個委員也提到就是說這個公務局是有做這些程式在做一個這個篩選但是我跟各位委員報告一個這個數目字以往大概就是每個月辦規則的大概是2到3萬件這樣子的情況但是這個從去年下半年之後辦規則的一個每個月辦規則已經快到這個10萬件"},{"start":7437.418,"end":7460.29,"text":"所以大家也這個可以想像的到這十萬件裡面大概這個大家都想說該當處罰到那個該當真正的一個這個駕駛人但是進行取發看到的一個情況可能真的裡面有太大最後還是處罰不到那個真正的一個這個駕駛人而造成但是另外造成的是這個大家不願意看到的一些這個冒名頂替或是這個不實規則的這樣子的一個情況好謝謝來民意請委員"},{"start":7468.376,"end":7486.73,"text":"剛剛市長提的我今天本來違規祭典就是要去修正他的行為才讓他如果多次發生的話就不會再有可是如果你只擔一次罰款的話大概沒有辦法造成一些嚇阻力尤其是這兩個"},{"start":7488.551,"end":7517.427,"text":"江部自己的數據都呈現說每一年這些高風險的違規行為是一直逐年在成長的那我們的傷亡率也是在成長當中怎麼沒有去考慮到這種重大違規而且它重複率非常的高才可以讓這些行為能夠不要再繼續的發生尤其闖紅燈或者是超速的話造成他人的事故也是非常高他自己的事故高以外造成他人的事故也是這麼高那所以"},{"start":7517.927,"end":7538.49,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":7538.49,"end":7553.626,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":7553.806,"end":7573.615,"text":"好 謝謝請問有沒有修正動議因為還是要必須提出修正動議並由本會委員相關的連署成為正式的提案那你是同意行政院的原版嗎"},{"start":7579.46,"end":7589.125,"text":"因為必須要提出修正動議才能針對相關的內容其他的委員是否同意行政院的版本"},{"start":7593.069,"end":7620.164,"text":"好那63條〈零月情委員〉那我們可能就要照行政院的版本通過那我們也尊重委員相關的意見當然就是要提出相關的修正動議那非本委員會的委員會有相關的委員來配合連署像洪森浩委員他有提案那本會的委員也都有相關的連署成為正式的提案"},{"start":7621.585,"end":7642.85,"text":"那如果沒有意見的話那林玉琴委員有沒有提出相關的修正動議那我們就照院板通過好現在第六十三條之二對第六十三條之二是配合六十三條的修正就是把六十三條之二裡面有關於這個進行取發應記違規點數相關的文字做一個刪除配套條文"},{"start":7651.4,"end":7664.481,"text":"就是按照六十三條依照行政院版那建議六十三條之後也依照行政院版通過對因為他是一個聯邦 其他委員有沒有意見好沒有意見我們就照院版通過"},{"start":7666.274,"end":7693.845,"text":"好現在我們回到第七條之一那我一再的重申交通安全是最高的原則也必須兼顧人民現實生活的運作那交通部也必須盡快提出相關的號誌、燈號相關的停車規劃設施、人型的相關設置的這些設施必須要盡快的來加以完成"},{"start":7694.965,"end":7706.77,"text":"這也是廖青祥委員表達的意見的重點我們必須對於相關的這些配套的措施要儘速的做好我認為我們還是休息15分鐘來進行結束"},{"start":7722.726,"end":7739.563,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7745.544,"end":7746.865,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7766.86,"end":7767.62,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7799.038,"end":7801.162,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7820.33,"end":7831.739,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7859.032,"end":7864.456,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7871.576,"end":7872.256,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7902.023,"end":7902.404,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7922.751,"end":7923.852,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7947.077,"end":7955.885,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7957.466,"end":7977.09,"text":"議員議員議員議員"},{"start":7977.346,"end":8007.09,"text":"議員．議員"},{"start":8014.263,"end":8014.283,"text":"委員會議"},{"start":8024.48,"end":8034.789,"text":"我再不記我不要請騎我去騎馬路怎麼可以嘛 對不對我騎馬路還會被檢舉啊 對不對 對不對那你怎麼會把叫汽車停騎囉你法要有個引導性嘛"},{"start":8050.923,"end":8052.584,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":8078.575,"end":8102.483,"text":"議員．議員．議員．"},{"start":8103.463,"end":8111.266,"text":"議員：立法院第11屆第12會期交通委員會第13會期交通委員會第14會期交通委員會第15會期交通委員會"},{"start":8133.029,"end":8162.654,"text":"議員議員議員議員議員議員"},{"start":8164.701,"end":8181.311,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8192.637,"end":8207.244,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":8209.923,"end":8227.722,"text":"議員．議員．議員．"},{"start":8228.242,"end":8229.424,"text":"現在我之間只...那個..."},{"start":8252.873,"end":8254.575,"text":"議員：立法院第11屆第9次全體委員會議"},{"start":8274.616,"end":8302.619,"text":"議員．議員．議員．"},{"start":8302.619,"end":8309.807,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8345.841,"end":8348.603,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8372.858,"end":8394.511,"text":"現在是你如果在捷運的籃子你放個警察座的籃子就破掉了然後我把警察座的籃子做成一張證明說你是趕到衝鋒你們要趕到不能走的他就是不能走的他如果可以還是把人員留下來這個東西就是"},{"start":8400.995,"end":8419.999,"text":"議員：立法院第11屆第9次全體委員會第9次審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請審查行政院函請"},{"start":8426.22,"end":8426.38,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8450.06,"end":8467.961,"text":"議員．議員．議員．"},{"start":8468.361,"end":8471.884,"text":"昨年換到狀況每天要把他的布蓋起來還亂丟都偷了"},{"start":8497.543,"end":8499.225,"text":"在選舉的時候也都說過這樣子的"},{"start":8619.008,"end":8643.734,"text":"好繼續開會請問交通部剛才跟本會相關委員所進行的意見交換結論如何跟主席報告大概剛剛有跟廖委員那邊大概有跟他這個說明相關修法的考量那這個廖委員大概初步是同意這個荒山委員的修正提案"},{"start":8645.374,"end":8665.906,"text":"修正的文字來請問這場委員有沒有意見沒有意見好謝謝那我們就修正通過七條之一現在處理附帶決議第一案已經念過不是蔡"},{"start":8681.326,"end":8689.991,"text":"道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一、第六十三條及第六十三條之二條文修正草案附帶決議第一案已經唸過請交通部說明"},{"start":8700.323,"end":8726.506,"text":"跟委員報告就是有關那個差異人針對那個的附帶結議經過跟委員辦公室還有委員報告以後做文字的生修中上要求交通部因以修法後一年內提出道路交通標誌標線號誌設置參考指引對其他的都沒有修正"},{"start":8728.351,"end":8735.151,"text":"好,針對修正的內容在座各位委員有沒有意見?沒有意見修正通過"},{"start":8736.844,"end":8757.646,"text":"還有第二案來區若驊委員（林佩祥委員、廖青祥委員的提案來請議事人員宣讀復代決議復代決議第二案有鑒於本次交通管理處罰條例第七條之一、第六十三條及第六十三條之二條文修法因本法第1最近一致於112年5月3日修正公佈並自同年6月30日實行"},{"start":8758.767,"end":8785.877,"text":"在目前道路工程及形成環境停車及上下車問題民眾檢舉制度及套票措施上完備另有職業駕駛及工作權警察機關執法量能龐大負擔駕駛行為或習慣等因素而衍生實務執行之問題原要求交通主管機構以本次交通管理處罰條例第七條之一、第六十三條及六十三條之二條文修正並實行後一年內就前述道路工程及形成環境停車及上下車等問題之實際改進"},{"start":8787.859,"end":8806.839,"text":"進度現立法院提出書面報告 訓導MV對 遵照辦理交通部照案處理 遵照辦理請問在座委員沒有意見吧 就照案通過好 請七位來補充說明"},{"start":8807.6,"end":8822.288,"text":"本期這邊補充說明那我們這一次短時間內又要修法再度修法的原因大家都了解是因為目前道路還有人行的實際實際環境改善還有停車問題檢舉濫用配套措施都尚未完備執行產生爭議讓行人還有駕駛人還有職業駕駛人"},{"start":8826.65,"end":8826.93,"text":"以上本期補充說明"},{"start":8854.594,"end":8866.134,"text":"好那交通部同意並且要遵照辦理好那就照案通過那今天都已經處理完畢"},{"start":8867.816,"end":8883.807,"text":"那剛才邱若驊委員的提案、林佩祥委員、廖先祥委員的提案以及蔡其昌、徐富奎、陳樹葉等人相關的這些修正動議或者是附帶決議"},{"start":8885.741,"end":8903.553,"text":"如果有人要補簽請來做補簽那其實不管是徐厚華委員、林佩祥委員、廖先祥委員以及蔡吉昌委員等人的提案都說明一個重點"},{"start":8904.614,"end":8928.626,"text":"就是這個修法之後一年內必須針對相關的交通耗資相關的這一些道路的工程行人環境停車上下車的問題實際改善的這些進度必須要做出相關的一個處理這個都是非常明確的要求好那我們"},{"start":8930.387,"end":8948.921,"text":"好協商完成宣告協商結論如下第63條63條之二照行政院提案通過第二第七條之一修正通過那通過附帶決議兩項請問各位委員照剛才協商結論通過有沒有意義沒有意義通過"},{"start":8959.542,"end":8980.669,"text":"針對本日會議做以下決議討論事項所列道路交通管理處罰條例第七條之一、第六十三條及第六十三條之二條文修正草案修審查完畢離去審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前請問各位委員是否需交由黨團協商"},{"start":8983.021,"end":8999.416,"text":"不需交由黨團協商確定院會討論時由李昭吉委員昆澤補充說明本日通過條文的相關法、字、用詞、用語等授權主席及議事人員調整本日議程處理完畢。散會"}]}},{"id":"15856","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15856","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbcb0d1d3af5c18c1c99e01fa654b137933be8d109af184be4bd2d7b24e33249255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管：台灣自來水股份有限公司。(處理)【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-29","start_time":"2024-04-29T08:30:29+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:23:59+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":6810,"委員發言時間":"08:30:29 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MANGA"},{"start":1778.769,"end":1779.45,"text":"主席"},{"start":1793.516,"end":1812.117,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第9次全體委員會議．事落時間113年4月24日星期三9時至12時50分地點紅紅101會議室出席委員林大化委員等14人列席委員洪孟凱委員等17人列席人員經濟部長"},{"start":1813.619,"end":1835.176,"text":"王美花及相關人員、主計總處、內政部、勞動部、環境部、法務部等單位代表、主席、邱昭及委員議員報告事項一、宣讀上次會議事務決定、確定二、處理113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等17案經濟部含為113年度中央政府總預算決議檢証"},{"start":1837.898,"end":1842.842,"text":"一、經濟部投資師引覽外國專業人才預算凍結300萬元書面報告案二、經濟部資訊處數位應用與資安認証資訊服務費預算凍結5%書面報告案三、經濟部投資師促進投資預算凍結300萬元書面報告案"},{"start":1858.465,"end":1860.846,"text":"4.經濟部投資師促進投資預算凍結100萬元書面報告案5."},{"start":1860.846,"end":1863.346,"text":"產發署工業技術升級輔導預算凍結1000萬元書面報告案6."},{"start":1863.346,"end":1864.867,"text":"產發署工業技術升級輔導預算凍結2000萬元書面報告案7."},{"start":1864.867,"end":1865.887,"text":"國貿署資訊服務費預算凍結160萬元書面報告案8."},{"start":1865.887,"end":1867.548,"text":"國貿署國際貿易預算凍結500萬元書面報告案9."},{"start":1867.548,"end":1867.828,"text":"標準局及所屬標準"},{"start":1885.553,"end":1898.491,"text":"檢驗及度證管理預算凍結300萬元書面報告案、10水利署及所屬水利建設及保育管理預算凍結500萬元書面報告案、11水利署及所屬水利建設及保育管理預算凍結1%書面報告案"},{"start":1901.575,"end":1917.827,"text":"12水利署及所屬水利建設及保育管理通訊費預算凍結600萬元書面報告案13商業署促進商業科技發展預算凍結100萬元書面報告案14商發署健全商業環境向下資訊服務費預算凍結100萬元"},{"start":1920.489,"end":1923.33,"text":"15.三幫署推動商業服務業轉型成長預算凍結100萬元書面報告案16."},{"start":1923.33,"end":1923.93,"text":"產業園區管理局及所屬產業園區業務預算凍結100萬元書面報告案17."},{"start":1923.93,"end":1927.591,"text":"地調及礦業管理中心總稅出預算凍結200萬元書面報告案決定第一案至第17案書面報告均送達預算均得以動之女巨審查報告提報院會"},{"start":1949.296,"end":1959.683,"text":"討論事項依審查113年度中央政府總預算有關經濟部及所屬主管預算凍結案等4案經濟部含為113年度中央政府總預算決議檢証依經濟部產業技術師科技專案預算凍結1億5000萬元書面報告案"},{"start":1969.851,"end":1992.174,"text":"討論事項和並詢答委員黃建斌、楊瓊英、張祺凱及林思明說明提案要指經濟部長王美花報告號委員林黛樺等19人提出質詢經由經濟部王部長及內政部消防署副組長杜汪濤及相關人員及其答覆登記發表員處不在場者外區域均與發表完畢詢答結束委員陳超明、鍾嘉斌、陳冠廷"},{"start":1993.055,"end":2005.869,"text":"所提書面職學內容記錄刊登公報,書面職學和未及答覆部分請相當於週內以書面答覆並附資本會二檢送經濟部一般行政預算凍結一百萬元書面報告案,三水利署"},{"start":2007.188,"end":2024.565,"text":"水利建設及保育管理預算凍結1%書面報告案、市農委員署一般行政預算凍結100萬元書面報告案、決議第一案之第四案均同意動之理據報告提報院會二審查行政院行政院行情審議、工廠管理輔導法第28條之14、第31條及第39條條文修正草案"},{"start":2029.71,"end":2048.027,"text":"2、本院委員黃潔等人擬具工廠管理輔導法部分條文修正草案案3、委員黃建斌等人擬具工廠管理輔導法第28條之14、第31條及第39條條文修正草案案4、委員林思明等人擬具工廠管理輔導法第22條及第29條條文修正草案案"},{"start":2048.867,"end":2062.518,"text":"5、委員王美惠等人擬具工廠管理輔導法第31條條文修正草案案6、委員邱盈等人擬具工廠管理輔導法第31條條文修正草案案7、委員蔡玉儀等人擬具工廠管理輔導法第28條至14第31條及第39條條文修正草案案"},{"start":2067.001,"end":2073.786,"text":"8.委員馬文君等人拟據《工廠管理輔導法》第28條之14及第31條條文修正草案案9."},{"start":2073.786,"end":2078.589,"text":"委員鍾嘉斌等人拟據《工廠管理輔導法》部分條文修正草案案10."},{"start":2078.589,"end":2082.712,"text":"委員楊秋英等人拟據《工廠管理輔導法》第28條之14及第31條及第39條條文修正草案案11."},{"start":2082.712,"end":2085.614,"text":"台灣民眾黨團拟據《工廠管理輔導法》第28條之14及第31條及第39條條文修正草案案"},{"start":2096.901,"end":2115.729,"text":"委員中嘉賓等人分別所提第22條條文均不予通過維持現行法條文。第二十八條之十四條文照行政院提案與行政院提案內容相同之各委員提案通過。三、文明、私民等人所提第29條條文不予通過維持現行法條文。"},{"start":2116.429,"end":2142.108,"text":"第31條條文,照行政院提案及與行政院提案內容相同之各委員提案通過。 五,委員黃婕等人所提第31條條文,不予通過。 六,第39條條文,照行政院提案及與行政院提案內容相同之各委員提案通過。 七,並按審查文據拟據審查報告提報院會討論,不須交由黨團協商並推請。 求召及委員予以院會討論時作補充說明。 散會宣錄完畢。"},{"start":2145.506,"end":2166.681,"text":"好,請問各位同仁上次的會議議事錄有錯誤?沒有,我們議事錄確認那現在進行討論事項請宣讀繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算營業部分關於經濟部主管台灣自來水股份有限公司今日處理已宣讀完畢"},{"start":2172.055,"end":2179.001,"text":"討論事項所列議程台水公司預算委員會在3月21日已經詢答完畢並於4月3日就審查項目與委員提案宣讀完畢我們現在進行逐項審查依據預算法第50條及相關規定照業務計劃部分營業收入及生產成本轉投資計劃"},{"start":2199.318,"end":2226.911,"text":"重大之建設事業資金運用以及補辦預算部分逐項審查現在進行協商好來我們各位同仁我們首先是營業收入的部分來請教各位營業收入的部分有增略第一案有單位委員增略20億請行政部門來說明"},{"start":2240.272,"end":2257.266,"text":"各位委員,大家早安。有關第一案,委員有希望公司這邊在營業收入增列20億元。那這邊,水公司這邊做說明,因為水價未調整,積水收入實在是難移。"},{"start":2258.047,"end":2279.04,"text":"大幅成長。委員所提示的就是新莊收入的部分。今年度我們的預算已經比去年112年的預算增累了有9100萬。其他的收入包括離島虧損補助收入,這個是以公部門的水利署來對邊預算。"},{"start":2281.101,"end":2291.164,"text":"那公司這邊也會爭取中央政府這邊用公務預算來預助減緩擠債的壓力那營業收入增加確實是有困難懇請委員大力來支持謝謝那最後委員來來一位那個賴立文委員"},{"start":2303.103,"end":2318.89,"text":"好,我就尊重這個經濟部份太子的公司不過還是希望你們持續的努力持續努力來讓整個財務狀況更加的一些改善還有好的一些獲利機會還是要持續來努力好,那這案我就該主席了"},{"start":2319.17,"end":2344.038,"text":"好 那個那位委員該主決議 那個邱議員要不要發言這不發言齁 那政監裁委員那在營業收入的部分呢 主席在這邊補充因為我們上次在公司週年慶的時候本席也特別提出我們可以有很多的應用我們自己的資產我們的本業當然就是要安全提供這個水給民眾"},{"start":2344.938,"end":2366.99,"text":"但是呢我們有很多相對的資產比如說我們的管理處我們的淨水廠有很多是都非常耐死的地方而且是我們的寶貝那這個呢是怎麼樣去一夜結合能夠讓我們的本業以外的支出的收入會增加我覺得這個公司上次我們也討論過應該可以做一個專案去討論"},{"start":2370.512,"end":2382.176,"text":"全世界人不只台灣瞭解到我們台灣自來水的歷程以及之美我覺得這個非常重要你們也專案去討論好不好因為從上一次到現在也已經快一個多月了那因為今天在回答的時候你們還是很保守的說你們怎麼樣去在本業方面但是沒有聽到這一塊所以我特別再補充好不好研討請方案提出謝謝"},{"start":2400.401,"end":2430.401,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":2430.401,"end":2430.942,"text":"第5案到第11案請做說明"},{"start":2440.062,"end":2463.392,"text":"第5案是服務費用,張家俊委員要減列3000萬。第6案一樣是張家俊委員提出來要凍結我們的服務費用,用戶新設及水裝置成本凍結11分。第7案是謝易鳳委員等人要減列我們的服務費用的水電費2億元。"},{"start":2465.374,"end":2480.251,"text":"第8案是張家俊等委員要檢列我們的水電費2000萬元第9案是邱益穎委員等要檢列我們服務費用的修理保養保固費檢列100萬元"},{"start":2482.854,"end":2508.804,"text":"第10案是賴瑞榮等委員要檢列我們的服務費用暫處包裝代理及加工費要檢列1000萬元總結5%那第11案是賴瑞榮等委員那個董事長這個上面已經都有寫了我們只要你說明好不好說明你們的立場怎麼樣好不好"},{"start":2510.043,"end":2514.375,"text":"好,那就第5案的部分"},{"start":2517.399,"end":2539.967,"text":"第4到11案的部分那最主要服務費用是動力費、管線修復費還有用戶水量機的拆放經費等那113年4月份因為電價又漲幅達15%一估將增加本公司的動力費有5億6千244萬元"},{"start":2542.813,"end":2563.764,"text":"那除了扣除水電費之外主要是有電費還有修理保養保固外包費那113年度的預算我們已叫112年度的預算減編那本案經會竊屬業務的需要懇請委員大力來支持好經過行政部門的說明請教各位同仁有沒有意見"},{"start":2565.843,"end":2593.66,"text":"來,那任委員我知道當然台水的經費相當節俱不過還是希望持續來遵節好不好那我想我就支持台水的預算好,持續遵節齁那就不剪不動那其他委員在沒有意見主席台要做決議之前我聽取大家意見主席有一項想要請教你們的水電電在這一次4月1號漲價有沒有納在你們目前的數字裡頭"},{"start":2596.443,"end":2621.856,"text":"目前我們這個預算編的是兩年前編的對啊所以你應該這個董事長在這邊我也希望啦因為台水大家都很支持但是部長不容易坐在這邊你們要講真實的啊我們今天通過的預算根本也不是你真的預算啊所以當然這個是突然4月1號那你應該我舉一個例你應該告訴我們4月1號"},{"start":2624.837,"end":2647.892,"text":"我們現在已經提案9月不能夠開所以如果在9月沒有漲的時候4月1號漲到年底你們會增加多少我們要聽的是你們行政部門所提出你們的立場是怎麼樣而不是不提那到時候我們決算的時候還是並決算那我們立法委員這個都是錄音錄影會讓民眾來挑戰我們應該大家共同"},{"start":2651.974,"end":2667.242,"text":"一起團結努力把真實的問題拿出來才對嘛所以我要求你再說明一下4月1號照你們現在所編4月1號你們公共電到年底你要增加多少這個才是我們要聽的嘛好不好"},{"start":2669.144,"end":2683.223,"text":"4月1日因為這個電價的一個漲幅我們出估因為有高壓跟低壓平均的漲幅大概15%所以公司大概會增加我們出估4月1日到年底會增加5億6千萬左右"},{"start":2684.977,"end":2687.118,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位"},{"start":2705.882,"end":2727.088,"text":"也就是你這個4月1日因為漲價不管你什麼種電平均值自來水公司漲幅是15%所以你等於4月份的電價到12月底的電價必須要增加5億6千萬是不是這樣子還不包括突然狀況的嘛現在正規是5億6千萬那這怎麼處理呢"},{"start":2728.677,"end":2734.362,"text":"我們大概會爭取由行政院這邊看看有一些的公預算的補助"},{"start":2744.878,"end":2765.435,"text":"你講這個就對了啦,台電也很出行正義啦,我們自來水股份是最辛苦的沒有理由經濟部行政院不支持我們啊因為你這個5億6千萬,如果你要並決算的時候那你等於營業收入成本、營業支出全部整本預算要全部亂掉"},{"start":2766.856,"end":2781.923,"text":"所以這個突發狀況你是不是部長你是不是可以趕快說一下這個部分是不是你們要怎麼樣去處理要不然我們今天審查這個預算整本預算的數字都歪掉了都不正確了來請做說明謝謝委員那預算邊是沒有問題但是因為確實現在大家對台水的那個降漏期待很深那現在就是降漏如果到10%其實付出的成本"},{"start":2794.969,"end":2807.498,"text":"都會遠高於受益也就是說部長現在要在你你你focus在我們講電因為這個是很直球對決的問題你那個5億6他們現在計算出來要怎麼處理本價請問這個所以我們就針對這樣的台水的這樣的一個重要的基礎建設我們有爭取經濟那個行政院齁在明年來編相關的預算來挹注台水公司"},{"start":2821.607,"end":2821.767,"text":"來,賴任委員"},{"start":2850.425,"end":2870.439,"text":"那我建議部長啦,其實這個5億多的這個經費還是要全力來爭取行政院來支持,然後因為台水中央確實是相當,而且又這些因素不是台水所主要造成的,我覺得這個要爭取,那另外是它的那個醬肉那一塊也要持續來爭取好不好,這兩個恐怕都要請部長大力再繼續個人選擇我的意思是說現在爭取因為確實"},{"start":2872.76,"end":2872.86,"text":"是,是,是。"},{"start":2895.375,"end":2911.65,"text":"張吉卡維我來幫應該是幫經濟部特別幫台水、幫人民、幫民眾打抱不平啦剛剛講那個虧損五億多那個我看了一筆更嚴重的我們到外面那個買水啊外國的對不對跟農水署跟水利署買水一年38億4178萬"},{"start":2915.838,"end":2932.364,"text":"對行政院來講可能左手拿到右手去可是對台水就很不公平啊對不對你說虧損的也累所以現在上水價嘛對不對可是你裡面的錢你為什麼要花這38億4千多萬這個應該直接以後就不要買啦這筆錢省下來啦"},{"start":2934.425,"end":2952.946,"text":"請問部長在笑,應該往這方向走啊?這是跟營料會啦,我們跟水利署他有水資源諸位基金有跟3個水資源分署來購水的費用他跟農水署一樣有一用部分的農業用水也要跟他這個購水的費用要給農水署"},{"start":2953.246,"end":2965.556,"text":"部長跟那個 董事長我跟他分析一下為什麼要跟農水署買水為什麼你們要跟他買水那以前是農業社會嘛這應該是民國40幾年定的策略現在已經變成工業社會了"},{"start":2967.377,"end":2989.253,"text":"這樣一個方式非常不好是什麼地方?你自來水你這邊已經是虧錢對不對?你又去買這38億,你現在錢要多少?你如果直接以後就跟行政院講清楚,你不要再買了,這38億不要買了對不對?這左手跟右手的問題嘛,利息錢就省下來對不對?第二個利息錢省,然後這個38億又省,你的虧損就減少啦,就不要漲水價了好不好?"},{"start":2990.094,"end":2999.993,"text":"我先凍結一小部分的預算阿你們提一個報告給行政院爭取一下我們也幫你講話我們幫你們打抱不平老實講也是幫人民打抱不平阿最重要這樣水價就不用漲了"},{"start":3003.9,"end":3028.841,"text":"是不是對我們其實不僅幫不僅從水利所我們還跟那個臺北市水利還要買水那個還比較貴一點點所以現在就是說因為各自有不同的水權那所以我們就變成是我們就需要買這些對臺水來說都是他的原料他買了這個水之後還要淨化等等然後才能夠賣給消費者所以目前的國內的機制是這個樣子"},{"start":3031.946,"end":3057.188,"text":"老天給的嘛 對不對那為什麼當初訂了因為農業社會嘛所以農水署他就管走了嘛 對不對正常他應該把是對以後沒有我這樣子好不好我很具體的建議好不好你處理你處理等一下來不是書面報告我做兩個要求齁我等一下可以把這個凍結預算變成主決議可是要做兩件事情第一個你要極力跟行政院爭取"},{"start":3058.103,"end":3082.53,"text":"每一年這個過水的預算你是沒有38億錢免的話至少要一半或怎麼樣嘛你的虧損就減少了嘛你的利息也會減少嘛我們人民可能就因為這樣不用漲水價這是一個好不好跟行政院爭取我跟你講齁在總諮詢跟到時候在經濟部諮詢的時候我還會問這一題的因為這對人民造成負擔不是只有對台水喔對人民也造成負擔利息的錢"},{"start":3083.37,"end":3085.912,"text":"主席臺這邊宣告一下齁 終結剛剛所有的委員你看我們張祺凱委員多支持自來水他沒有提案都是說要改組決議"},{"start":3104.947,"end":3133.219,"text":"對不對那各位同仁是不是這樣子齁因為大家也知道自來水的辛苦但是我們還是要以實際張教委員講的非常的有道理是不是我們請我們來做兩項主決議第一個部長還有董事長在這邊第一個針對於4月1號漲價致使台水公司必須到年底要增加5億6的經費由行政院支應之這第一個主計"},{"start":3134.459,"end":3152.23,"text":"主決議,第二個也就是買水的因為有這個水源的問題第二個主決議就是針對買水的水量以及這個金額請台水公司跟相關的這個單位去協調"},{"start":3155.392,"end":3175.359,"text":"運用各種方式就是你們去協調看看去總檢討有什麼迴旋的空間好不好我們給你們因為我們今天做成主決議的目的也就是讓你跟台北市自來水跟我們的這個這個農水署你你靠辣手去跟他們講這樣子才能夠真正去解決問題好不好做這兩項決議"},{"start":3178.66,"end":3183.982,"text":"今天大家協助你們的漏水問題你說漏水問題你要解決你還要很長遠的時間我們已經在解決藍莓之急"},{"start":3206.77,"end":3209.811,"text":"從第5案到第11案有委員提案的有在現場的就是照原列數是嗎?"},{"start":3235.811,"end":3236.291,"text":"第9案,你們能不能略減100?"},{"start":3250.787,"end":3263.24,"text":"來 保固費 可以嗎 第9案 保用的啦 跟保固的 他因為我們今年度的水量計的汰換 達到121萬隻 那因為這個"},{"start":3268.735,"end":3269.216,"text":"第9案測案第11案改為主決議"},{"start":3293.901,"end":3320.88,"text":"第10案跟第11案來記錄清楚都改為主決議那麼我們的服務費用呢就照列那剛剛有兩項的決議齊凱委員所提到一個各位委員共同所討論的那兩項決議送上主席來我們待會一併處理好繼續我們第12案跟第13案第12案跟第13案齊凱委員的是在第13案來請行政部門"},{"start":3322.242,"end":3322.403,"text":"12月13日"},{"start":3326.363,"end":3355.44,"text":"我們最近就是水利署做水資源的調度那就我們剛才有提過了水利署因為這個極端氣候的影響我們要跟北水處多移用一些水量那另外我們為了保育地下水我們營商地區我們現在是都慢慢用人鳥嘴談人工湖的湖水所以我們原有的地下的水井就撿湊了所以我們的目前變成是我們"},{"start":3357.096,"end":3357.216,"text":"第11屆第11屆第11屆"},{"start":3374.974,"end":3395.998,"text":"來"},{"start":3399.453,"end":3423.624,"text":"李董事長,你們的自有水源希望能夠逐年增加你們開源當然也要節省那你如果自有水源越多、比例越高那你這個外購的這個水源的成本就會降低嘛對你整年,每年都差不多元清水費用差不多將近要40億嘛是我希望能夠逐年調降"},{"start":3424.845,"end":3450.877,"text":"你沒有開源提高自由水源的短中長期計劃比如說美尼你要提升到多少比例自由水源的供水量有多少3年內你要提升到多少比例自由水源多少量5年之內、10年之內我希望你提出短中長期的自由水源的供水量"},{"start":3452.352,"end":3457.985,"text":"跟這個比例以後才檢驗說你們到底有沒有努力去開拓自由水源"},{"start":3459.25,"end":3486.048,"text":"這個你回答一下好不好好,跟委員報告齁,其實水公司跟水利署一般的水源開發比較大型的都是由水利署他們來主導那水公司是開發一些比較小型的地下水井跟湖流水那像澎湖地區現在在開發那個海淡水那海淡水的部分這個部分我們也要跟操作廠商這邊來購水齁,原先我們抽的地下水井確實也有一些研發的問題"},{"start":3487.089,"end":3506.296,"text":"所以在澎湖地區那塊開發地下水也是不太可行那本島的部分我們現在講的就是說一些浮流水的開發我們有積極在研擬不過這個還是要跟水利署這邊來搭配相關後續的計畫那比較大型的還是要由水利署這邊來主導"},{"start":3507.332,"end":3507.572,"text":"海淡廠"},{"start":3523.772,"end":3550.468,"text":"在北高雄要設立一個擁有性的海淡廠地點也確定了、時程也確定了120年要供應水10萬噸每天這預算是120億當然這個主政者是水利署那這個10萬噸的供水他除了可以北高雄跟南台南之外除了工業用水另外他可以民生用水"},{"start":3555.787,"end":3556.247,"text":"您知道嗎?"},{"start":3556.247,"end":3557.688,"text":"可以喝水嗎?"},{"start":3557.688,"end":3558.969,"text":"有喝過嗎?"},{"start":3558.969,"end":3575.739,"text":"那個水質也還不錯所以未來是不是也可以考慮跟未來的海淡廠去合作取得比較便宜的海淡廠所供應的自來水讓你們自有率能夠提高"},{"start":3577.168,"end":3594.109,"text":"你一定要有短中長期1、3、5、10年的計畫。你要有個承諾,你要有個計畫表。 我不知道給你支持跟檢驗。海淡水我們還是要跟操作商去購水的。"},{"start":3596.055,"end":3599.016,"text":"1、3、5、10年短中長期,你們預計自由水源要提高多少比例?發水量是多少量?用哪些方式?"},{"start":3620.174,"end":3643.148,"text":"主席,我剛剛這樣的詢問他有答應短中長期的計畫這個計畫一個月之內,董事長一個月可能你寫不出來了三個月之內,完整的報告包括你們這個水源的來源方式都要寫得很清楚好不好"},{"start":3645.442,"end":3651.524,"text":"主席我想要請教這個自來水公司就是說我們在講這個漏水率那基本上我們知道大概在沿海地區因為那裡基本上"},{"start":3672.721,"end":3673.982,"text":"中央政府總預算案．"},{"start":3683.641,"end":3704.136,"text":"提高提升他的強度比方都把他變成這個ht和p的他他的強度是高強度的他就可以大幅解決漏水率這個偏高的一個狀況所以我想要知道說我們自來水公司有沒有類似這樣的計劃把沿海地區這一種這個"},{"start":3706.397,"end":3706.417,"text":"議員：總裁"},{"start":3722.201,"end":3747.256,"text":"謝謝蔡委員感謝蔡委員關心這個議題其實確實在沿海地區的地理條件就是說它可能有些研化所以它腐蝕性比較高那自來水埋在地底下如果是金屬管的話就容易鏽蝕造成漏水所以我們公司這邊對降低漏水率的計畫我們也請我們各首屬的區管理處在執行的時候在管財的顯用設計上一定要"},{"start":3747.896,"end":3748.637,"text":"我們都有充分的一個考量"},{"start":3766.998,"end":3782.483,"text":"蔡委員的意思就是在沿海地區的要優先趕快做啦 這樣一定是兩個嘛 越老舊的越先處理嘛 對不對 沿海地區有研發問題啊 我們都自己的 所以沿海趕快做 看能不能優先沿海的地方先汰換"},{"start":3783.516,"end":3803.115,"text":"那你本來你過去都金屬管之上都已經秀死而且以數據來說我看過你們的數據你們在沿海地區的漏水率就是比其他地方還要來得高所以這裡應該是要優先解決的地方 是我們會來盤點漏水率高的地方我們會優先來辦理管線的更新"},{"start":3804.075,"end":3805.577,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":3830.379,"end":3859.435,"text":"水公司協助所以你那個供水費用使用材料費我想本期建議這個全數照列來其他委員還有沒有來那面請教董事長這邊你們的材料費用用品這個部分供水費用是資材的部分來水源的部分是另外就是剛剛那個38億多那個38億多是水源的部分所以這個全部都是資材的部分"},{"start":3860.407,"end":3880.499,"text":"這就是原料要跟水利署跟農水署購水的費用。這個11億包括在30...管線不是,不是管線。 沒有沒有,你這個是包括你買水的部分嗎?你現在針對於章祺凱委員所說的11億的這個部分項目是什麼?材料及用品費對不對?"},{"start":3880.499,"end":3884.681,"text":"是用材料購水費用的部分是跟北水處購水的部分11億"},{"start":3886.936,"end":3908.615,"text":"是錢嗎?是那個買水的費用嗎?是買水的費用嗎?所以跟剛剛我們有幾位委員講的是不一樣的,它不是資財的部分啊?你要講清楚啊?對啊,講了半天,要講清楚這不是資財,這是買水跟台北市這個買水的費用是如此,那我請教,那去年度呢也一樣這個經費嗎?"},{"start":3911.077,"end":3932.579,"text":"五年也一樣這個數量跟這個錢嗎?對,對,大概都是這樣子這幾年都是一樣這樣子?對對,而且有在增加有在增加因為水利署開發中部的鳥水潭人工湖以後已經我們已經跟他購水了,已經在出水那這一塊就會增加我們的購水的費用"},{"start":3935.004,"end":3960.359,"text":"那這個邏輯他這個部分是給自來水事業處買水的費用不是資產的部分這個要講清楚這第一點第二個你說逐年再增加那經濟部長在這邊你今天自來水主要買水的部分有兩個大項第一個台北市自來水第二個就是農水署"},{"start":3961.562,"end":3968.653,"text":"還有個水利署對還有水利署那這個都是利署在我們政府部門為什麼不幫助我們自來水呢?"},{"start":3970.089,"end":3970.629,"text":"為什麼呢?"},{"start":3970.629,"end":3971.73,"text":"都是公部門啊!"},{"start":3971.73,"end":3973.051,"text":"為什麼不幫助呢?"},{"start":3973.051,"end":3976.033,"text":"這邏輯很奇怪啊!你叫人家不是你家裡的要減少,你自己家裡的不減少了怎麼可能?"},{"start":3976.033,"end":3978.174,"text":"那我們自己水利署跟農水署呢?"},{"start":3996.655,"end":4017.19,"text":"我們也有跟農水署在協調那個沿水的費用。 部長,我們自己公部門我們趕靠找欸,我們不協助自來水,任由他們每一年虧損,讓員工背這麼大的黑鍋。 那有人這樣欸,你自己不解決家裡的事情,你直接要跑去問人家,人家會問啊,你們減少多少,我再跟啊,那怎麼辦?"},{"start":4019.571,"end":4033.812,"text":"你要真正去解決今天我們省自來水預算喔我們絕對全力支持自來水但是你要協助他們啊你行政部門你主管不支持你永遠怎麼樣漏水率"},{"start":4034.933,"end":4035.994,"text":"你自己內部趕快找進來講吧 怎麼辦 部長回答一下吧"},{"start":4054.055,"end":4056.057,"text":"水利署開發一個新的水源開發那個水給"},{"start":4083.835,"end":4103.258,"text":"臺水之後他會賣給消費者所以他開發了水源之後那後續會有水的作業基金那會做在後續再做其他的開發或者水環境的維護那臺北市政府就是回吹水庫那回吹水庫就是因為水權是回吹水庫那還在維運等等所以他的水來"},{"start":4104.059,"end":4104.66,"text":"臺北市自來水公司來做商量。"},{"start":4120.981,"end":4126.122,"text":"將能不能再做降一點加但是因為現在長期以來機制就是這個水權是歸誰的那台水如果不是自己的水權那當然就要付相關的這個材料費的成本目前的巨資這樣那因為像那個農水署他們收了這個錢以後他們也會有他們的這個相關來扶植農民的這個需求"},{"start":4146.807,"end":4174.088,"text":"所以大概已經這個已經讓了非常多年都是這個機制。 如果這樣部長你所做的就不機會啊。 不讓機會啦。 來請哪一位。 我來說明齁。 剛才部長講的我就以水利署為例那個是法例明定的啦那個是法例明定最後是給人民的基本上大部分是給"},{"start":4175.202,"end":4180.566,"text":"臺水因為買了這麼多在外面去買水嘛對不對一年38億多嘛然後我們的員工就被黑鍋嘛"},{"start":4205.562,"end":4223.016,"text":"然後第一個因為虧損太大所以有一個利息錢嘛 對不對第二個因為虧損太大更嚴重的就是水費可能要調漲嘛 對不對這三個都很不合理啊員工背黑鍋又要付利息錢一般老百姓又受苦所以可能要上架那可以檢討啊我去查就是部長剛剛講沒錯啊民國40幾年的時候為什麼這個你要跟農水署買買水"},{"start":4229.301,"end":4244.534,"text":"因為以前是農業社會啊,農業用的水最重要嘛,對不對?所以水在跟他管,可是那個水是老天給的水啊。就剛剛主席講的啊,你要你來管,台水來管,或者農水水來管都可以啊。而且從農業社會已經進到工業社會啊。"},{"start":4245.856,"end":4274.196,"text":"所以這個錢是可以省下來我覺得可以透過行政院你們提一個案子包括部長支持然後台水提一個案子跟行政院講清楚這個時代背景已經不一樣了不要讓你們付這個利息錢不要花這個錢跟農水署去買水好不好這個錢就省下來那第二個剛剛講的如果是台北市政府毀碎水庫可以去談價格稍微低一點點啊欸當初為什麼要買水就是跟他建那個水庫有關係嘛對不對那水庫貪欸 農 毀碎水庫多少年了那個成本應該也要降了吧"},{"start":4275.057,"end":4295.513,"text":"有行政院出面去談好不好,所以至少第一個提一個案子給行政院收農水屬的錢能不能以後就手手到右手而已嘛,不要讓你們再背黑鍋了,然後那個肥碎水庫的、背水的我們去談把價格降下來好不好,這個就是我們剛剛主席講的這個主決議,我們把它講清楚好不好好謝謝,那現在那任委員再來謝一芬委員再來秋樹委員齁,我們再來做決議的齁,謝謝"},{"start":4296.914,"end":4324.759,"text":"我是建議就叫剛剛大家這樣建議跟部長建議是不是就請部長、經濟部這邊回去再溝通跟剛剛不管是兩個單位間的那怎麼樣把這個能夠再做一些調整的部分那也提一個順便報告給我們好不好我們討論這個的結果提一個順便報告我們把這個整個的關係然後現在的情形包括你們溝通完的結果溝通完的結果也提一份給我們好不好然後後續我們想要怎麼做等等那我是建議這個預算是不是就照例啦好不好好謝謝來接下來是一份委員"},{"start":4329.833,"end":4348.609,"text":"就如同剛才幾位委員所說的就是台水跟其他的相關的政府部門的單位不管是中央政府或是地方政府那調度水源的部分我們當然希望協調出對民眾最有利的那但是我們也想到了就是節水節能的這個部分"},{"start":4349.229,"end":4368.442,"text":"那的確未來還是有持續發展的這個可能性那當然了我也想要等一下請部長也順便回答其實我們看到剛才我們就希望政府部門可以負擔台水因應電價上漲的部分那其實我們也會擔心說就是未來"},{"start":4369.022,"end":4393.213,"text":"如果一直在用再生能源或者是用光電等等的時候 那個價格高漲那目前以就是那種彈性民眾的消費彈性來講可能會造成我們的物價上漲的這些疑慮等等那未來你的繼任者郭部長他也說了就是說不排除核電延逸的這樣子的可能性"},{"start":4394.793,"end":4419.603,"text":"我想要請問一下王部長你的看法是什麼因為畢竟你在這個經濟部已經這麼久的時間那到底就是核電演繹的政策以及讓核電就是說是不是這也是比較屬於民眾的共識因為大家也會擔心現在又有地震頻傳等等跳電的問題那是不是用"},{"start":4420.183,"end":4435.136,"text":"何電來養我們的綠能,是不是比較是可行的方式?好,那邱志偉委員,我們一併再回答,謝謝最後邱志偉,有沒有要再講?剛剛張吉蓋委員說的,其實我已經講了10幾年了"},{"start":4440.393,"end":4455.4,"text":"這個你要跟其他經濟部其他單位或是臺北市政府主管相關的水公司去談價格能不能優惠我覺得這個先知道水利署有他的稅率稅數也有相關的法律規定如果"},{"start":4456.704,"end":4473.555,"text":"當然最好可以免費,水利署直接可以供應給你們,對不對?但事實上它有整個會計制度,每一個二級機關、三級機關或者國營事業都有它的這個制度,所以其實有的,如果可以突破的話,等於10年前就突破了。"},{"start":4474.695,"end":4493.553,"text":"為什麼不能突破?我想了解其中的原因在哪裡?我們協助是法律規定呢?還是這個各地方本位主義?還是什麼其他的因素?我想這個部分是要幫你們解決問題舉個例子來說,現在台電、中油都要設立案封店,都要開了封廠"},{"start":4495.543,"end":4519.915,"text":"基本上國營事業要互相支持、互相開放、互相協助,對不對?所以它的業變、它的離岸風機應該要跟中鋼買,對不對?這個經濟部可以控制嗎?經濟部也沒有辦法控制嘛,因為它站在成本考量,它就必須不跟中鋼這個新達海基買,要跟其他的這個廠商去買。"},{"start":4521.648,"end":4544.962,"text":"這個就是你們難言之隱。 你們在讓成本考量。 你們在壞記者制度的設計問題。 所以我今天齁,剛剛張棋杰委員提出這個問題很好啦齁。 雖然已經提了十幾年了齁。 但是能夠在今年大家一起面對來解決看看能不能把你們成本降低。 比較好的條件讓你們成本降低也節省國庫的支出啦。"},{"start":4547.939,"end":4569.594,"text":"謝謝智慧十幾年前台水很有錢啊你最近虧損成這樣子要趕快徵訊這個問題不是只有在台水台電也是嘛對不對台電那個離島離島的那個電費本來應該政府出的啊現在都叫台電去出啊台電就虧損累累啊狀況跟你台水不是一樣所以我記得整個國營是國營稅就是人民的錢嘛對不對人民的嘛我記得國營稅現在要站出來"},{"start":4570.314,"end":4572.895,"text":"最後我們這一個部分最後就請陳寗威委員發言結束我們請行政部門回答我們就要做決議謝謝"},{"start":4587.741,"end":4591.025,"text":"為什麼你的材料會去減幅?減幅的部分到底是為什麼?"},{"start":4601.618,"end":4604.12,"text":"以上委員所提出請行政部門一併做回答來跟"},{"start":4631.449,"end":4641.079,"text":"陳委員這邊報告我們這個材料是我們購水的費用不是我們管線開放的這個材料的費用"},{"start":4643.149,"end":4664.995,"text":"是我們買像跟藍水買鹽水的費用就水庫的水或是河川的水鹽水的費用所以你們自己你們這個所謂科目的科目表你們寫的是有點問題的"},{"start":4671.679,"end":4685.543,"text":"行政部門我再次主席台再說明我們這個議案討論的快半個鐘頭了來我們終結大家的意見這個預算是有包含了資材也有包含過水"},{"start":4687.204,"end":4704.18,"text":"這個購水呢是台北市自來水事業處也有跟農水署也有跟這個水利署包括原水買都是在這個38億多的當中那這11億多是針對於台北市自來水的這個部分它裡面的指向"},{"start":4705.101,"end":4724.13,"text":"我們剛剛也有做成兩項的決議第一個也就是這個電費因為剛剛有的委員還沒到電費的部分從4月1號開始增加5億6就由行政院來支應之第二個部分就針對他們購水的部分包括以上剛剛所說的三個單位請"},{"start":4726.331,"end":4742.202,"text":"經濟部協助行政院協助我們的這個台水公司去跟他們做談判去跟他們做談判那這個部分呢既然我們的疑點還是很多我就這樣建議請教各位這一個部分12案跟13案我們就凍結100萬啊你們趕快去做好嗎請教各位同仁好那就照以上剛剛的決議那兩項這個主決議有沒有在哪裡"},{"start":4755.733,"end":4758.455,"text":"主席,你那個凍結100萬是提書面報告就解凍還是?對對對對對,我們給你們一個靠山,主決議兩個都提好了嗎?"},{"start":4770.1,"end":4797.788,"text":"主決議好了嗎?簽在哪裡?我們相管的文字寫好再給委員。還沒?文字還沒好了?好趕快寫好來那我們繼續寫好再來。好主決議待會處理。來接下來我們針對第14案營業費用已經這個天才委員改主決議。好謝謝。那第15案跟第16案我個人呃真天才委員我們都改成主決議關於費用。我們齁"},{"start":4802.595,"end":4816.247,"text":"該組決議嗎?你已經改組決議了?那請相關部門加油好來第17案跟第18案,18案的陳昌明委員已經撤案那現在還有這個17案其他營業費用的這個部門脈絡委員是要凍結250萬,要不要再說明?來,行政部委員"},{"start":4822.873,"end":4850.869,"text":"那研究發展費用的部分本公司是為了要提升我們用戶的水質還有精進一些產水的效率的需要那另外這些的研究計畫有部分都是跨年度在延續的計畫已經在進行中那未來會遵照委員的提議針對有關一些財務改善的研發項目那本案經費確實是也是有需要懇請委員能夠大力支持"},{"start":4851.152,"end":4852.353,"text":"第17案改為主決議,第18案測案接下來我們第19、22議一併討論歷期的部分請做說明"},{"start":4868.475,"end":4888.33,"text":"這個我們水公司這邊在112年底我們借款約是有1044億元那我們一股今年113年會增加到1148億元這些的借款最主要都是用在降漏我們背影幹管還有一些鳥水潭下游的一些投資的計畫"},{"start":4889.811,"end":4904.726,"text":"那我們去年的平均借款是利率是1.51%利息費用大概是13.37億元那今年的利息編列我們平均借款是用1.41%來計算那利息編列有13.46億元不過"},{"start":4911.872,"end":4932.293,"text":"上個月的3月21日央行又升息了半碼所以沿邊類的預算預算又不符來支用那未來我們水公司也會來強化資金的應用降低相關的一些利息費用那本案的經費而且確實是又需要吭醒委員能夠大力支持好來我們先一份委員謝謝"},{"start":4934.79,"end":4957.199,"text":"我的二十案那當然我還是希望台水公司等一下我的案子該主決議我還是希望說台水公司未來應該就他的財務健全的部分應該提出具體的計畫那當然我也考量到就是全球的央行對於利率的部分好像走向都未明而且並沒有往下的趨勢"},{"start":4957.759,"end":4958.279,"text":"耐震委員"},{"start":4981.47,"end":4988.374,"text":"台灣自來水股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司：台灣自來水股份有限公司："},{"start":5004.241,"end":5004.981,"text":"兩位委員已經都有說了就兩位發言這個"},{"start":5034.981,"end":5044.925,"text":"當然我們預算：謝謝各位同仁大家討論就是預算照列但是董事長團隊在這裡你一千塊四十四億你分幾包去借你應該要去跟請經濟部長跟我們的軍人團來談判不是任由你們這樣子"},{"start":5063.257,"end":5085.546,"text":"每一年固定這樣編因為你剛才已經有講了你們越借會越多那你越借越會多你商討不很好你越借越多這裡都不改變你還在替那個說升息稅會增加升息有很多人撿的啦當時高鐵的時候只有0.95比這次的20多萬談判"},{"start":5091.618,"end":5120.988,"text":"一個政府怎麼可能一個行政部門都沒在插人的對不對有只有管你們不能漲價只有管這個所以部長他的財務已經到這麼這麼的嚴重1044億而且還未再增加最後就這樣喔隱性的還不知道多少險性的就這樣那你今天立席要怎麼樣去談判少一塊一塊好啊"},{"start":5123.047,"end":5133.526,"text":"大總會沒有人這樣做的啦真的你們要找經濟部部長經濟部你們要協助他們找有能力的會計師來跟文人團說"},{"start":5137.279,"end":5160.385,"text":"對不對這個是非常基本啦這是基本講不應當問題我委員在這跟你講啦我們實在聽不下去因為你們的回答你1044億你總共分包分多少包哪一家多少請你們提列那個書面資料出來哪一家多少哪一家借多少哪一家的利息多少長袋、中袋"},{"start":5162.517,"end":5177.993,"text":"這個短帶的,你把它列出來,本市要要求這個數字。 是。那這種一千萬一個的工作,任由這樣利用的,你害死民眾嘛,就害死員工嘛。 跟詹委員報告,我們有短期借口。 等一下回答,我們先請陳警衛委員最後發言,來。"},{"start":5179.855,"end":5201.926,"text":"主席我是建議齁你剛剛所講的我們是要把它做成一個組決議我覺得要用我們的委員會去要求讓他們這個有武器啦就是說是我們委員會逼他一定要去談而且我想公股銀行公股銀行應該是可以很大台的空間而且我們等於是行業在那"},{"start":5203.188,"end":5219.282,"text":"這也是一個勝利我們跟他借完之後然後利息是固定的固定然後升息我們跟著升息所以我覺得應該要去比我覺得我們的委員會應該做個主決議然後讓你們有武器去談要求你們去談"},{"start":5222.001,"end":5241.538,"text":"好 謝謝來那這個部分我們預算照列那其中有第19案跟第20案來改為主決議那這個另外呢增加一個主決議就照剛剛陳林威委員提出也就是針對於台水1044億的貸款請這個"},{"start":5248.487,"end":5274.212,"text":"詳細的書面資料哪一筆像哪一家銀行借利息多少請你們列表出來也請經濟部協助這個自來水公司跟銀行團來洽談以利自來水公司的運作好那主決議趕快寫上來那各位同仁那接下來剛剛那兩案出來了沒有剛剛那兩個主決議出來了沒有"},{"start":5277.555,"end":5303.168,"text":"好再見好再見那我們繼續重大事業建設事業的部分我們第22案是通案我們待會再一併來處理那第23案到26案23案參議委員改為主決議那張綺凱委員也改為主決議其中還有陳昌平委員跟林委員來請行政部門請說明"},{"start":5306.38,"end":5327.261,"text":"那有關委員就23到26案的部分最主要是公司從102年就開始實施10年的降落計畫那我們每一年平均的降落大概有0.64%是優於日本的東京都漏水率他們的平均每年降落大概只有0.28%"},{"start":5329.143,"end":5353.543,"text":"我們也跟北水處這邊他們在做比較北水處它的漏水率是11.2%主要它是城市型的一個供水用戶比較集中維護效率也比較高我們公司在鄉臨北水處的部分就是以新北12區我們的漏水率就只有7.49%這個並"},{"start":5357.506,"end":5380.263,"text":"由於北水處的漲漏水利公司目前也規劃推動8年的一個漲漏計畫加強小區官網封閉及挖打的階階預計121年底漲漏水利可以降到9.77%以下接近日本的一個水準有建水源開發日漸困難"},{"start":5382.064,"end":5399.113,"text":"本案經會確實業務需要也懇請委員大力來支持那其中23案跟25案委員提案跟他們說明以後已經獲委員簽名同意改為主決議23案跟25案都做改為主決議那請兩位因為委員不在現場所以我們"},{"start":5412.27,"end":5413.651,"text":"23到26案做這樣的決議,你要針對這個部分嗎?"},{"start":5436.291,"end":5437.791,"text":"接下來我們針對於第27案27案有邱志偉委員來行政部門出名"},{"start":5464.895,"end":5481.252,"text":"我想27案我在案以為跟說明寫得很清楚我想這個董事長跟總監也了解說明一下這個你目前這個案子執行狀況如果我給你編這些預算你會不會沒辦法執行"},{"start":5482.657,"end":5483.277,"text":"最主要我們聊嘴談"},{"start":5499.266,"end":5524.895,"text":"進水場的用地,因為之前是有這些地主有一些抗爭不能夠如期來取得所以計畫是要往後推演那目前該土地我們已經在去年的6月取得可以加速來這個趕辦不過今年預算編了217千萬是多了一點委員謝謝委員也這個同意來解"},{"start":5525.535,"end":5551.862,"text":"我是好意啦,如果我這個照列,你20億給你,你到底能不能執行?執行不了啦。你執行不了,那我給你錢,你到時候...那你就講同意就好了啊。好,我們先同意啦。我幫你檢列你這個部分,到時候你如果進度超閒,或者突然莫名其妙這個要使用經費,確定不會喔?不會不會。"},{"start":5553.502,"end":5555.843,"text":"27案我們就照邱志偉委員所提案檢列7.8億元。接下來我們28、29、30都以30案呈上免費撤案。"},{"start":5575.013,"end":5587.159,"text":"另外兩位28、29改為主決議我們就照如此的決議接下來31案到34案其中有32案作為改為主決議請行政部門說明"},{"start":5591.098,"end":5602.967,"text":"最主要是無資來水地區改善計畫的第4期,這個期程是111年到113年,今年是最後一年。計畫的議定進度是68.33%,實際我們進度是77.5%,有超前9.2%。"},{"start":5608.732,"end":5621.686,"text":"那第二部分就部分民眾會改變用水習慣來使用其他水源那我們水公司會透過多元方式來鼓勵民眾多使用自來水那另外委員有提到"},{"start":5623.368,"end":5649.055,"text":"水利署這邊已調整作業流程提前來辦理前置作業加強進度控管目前全國無自來水用戶還很多實際需求遠大於我們這個計畫的經費本案經費確實業務需要懇請委員大力支持其中32案跟34案也向提案委員說明或委員簽名同意改為主決議"},{"start":5652.177,"end":5671.634,"text":"來 經濟委員 謝謝主席我想這個部分無自來水我曾經在我們的經濟委員會有正式提出質詢過那當時候美化部長是說我們有在跟行政院在申請專案要去做什麼樣相關的處理那請問"},{"start":5673.335,"end":5689.921,"text":"這樣的一個預算一定是不夠的啦我們無自來水當時候是因為還有前瞻預算加進來我們才勉勉強強多做了一點如果說今年到了這個是最後一起對不對最後一年嘛"},{"start":5691.075,"end":5714.602,"text":"最後一年完了之後呢所以其實我們現在看到前瞻也是到了最尾端了這個也到了最尾端可是你知道光溜多都不要講那個苑霞市其他這個縣市的部分光池霞市就一堆還有無自來水那怎麼辦跟委員報告那水利署已經提了第5期的計畫從114年到117年目前已經報驗了"},{"start":5718.962,"end":5743.599,"text":"所以114年到117年報院是另外下一期的計劃夠嗎?你們現在是一次報當時候美化部長是說我們就把它盤整我有說你們要盤整出來到底需要多少現在還有無自來水這個真的是很誇張啊然後都要去做評比也就是說今天入賊戶"},{"start":5745.2,"end":5750.065,"text":"可以在平均分的所謂的一個計算的單數"},{"start":5753.092,"end":5776.874,"text":"所以這個部分其實我覺得對很多人不公平阿跟委員報告大概這個評選的其實水利署他訂的這規定是他們訂的那水公司只是在執行我知道我是說這個部分因為你剛好有這個自來水的一個狀況無自來水也是你們他編你們在執行阿你們最清楚哪裡沒有自來水阿"},{"start":5777.535,"end":5786.027,"text":"那你們沒有自來水你們是不是應該把這些資料盤整出來給水利署他在編預算是不是能夠恰到我們的一個關鍵點"},{"start":5788.359,"end":5806.244,"text":"我們看到真的是連直轄市都那麼多沒有自來水那更何況其他的縣市我覺得你這個東西要盤整出來所以我會我不是要檢列我其實希望能夠把它做一個比較詳實的報告所以我改為主決議"},{"start":5808.784,"end":5814.146,"text":"第31案改為主決議第4期年編列預算17億多目標是要1.9萬戶的收益戶實際上不到5成實際上接水戶大概9000戶左右當然這個你們績效能夠再提升"},{"start":5833.649,"end":5846.81,"text":"那現在這個接水率比較低在屬於中南部比較多,特別是南部,冰凍的接管接水率很低,這個我也要幫冰凍工委,高雄市區比較好"},{"start":5849.429,"end":5869.585,"text":"非市區、非都會區、萬管庫的部分比較舊比如說秋園的水庫、我家的海水這些管理都有在提升所以我是期待這個基本上這個預算是不足的換寡又換不均你要把這資源用在需求強度最強的地方"},{"start":5870.305,"end":5870.625,"text":"中央政府總裁"},{"start":5887.418,"end":5889.159,"text":"政府總預算案附屬單位預算案附屬單位預算案"},{"start":5919.514,"end":5937.56,"text":"我們會把意見報給水利署請他們來納入不是我明天就找水利署來再找你一起來討論就趕快訂案不要再報你還報等他報回來報到民國幾年都不知道所以我期待我明天就速速召開"},{"start":5939.051,"end":5963.142,"text":"新業我就召開這個協調會趕快把你們這個對於哪些要接管的優先順序強度再評比能夠把偏鄉或者非都會區或者針對高雄屏東接管力不足的縣市能夠有加權能夠把它提升最短時間之內讓接管力能夠提升到都會區的水平這樣子"},{"start":5963.629,"end":5982.984,"text":"三十一、三十二、三十一、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、三十二、"},{"start":5983.854,"end":6010.028,"text":"你要把這個跟水利組好好來參詳怎麼樣把我不知道臺南經濟管理怎麼樣這樣我凍結一百萬提出完整的這個跟水利組提出完整的這個針對偏鄉或者非多位區域這個接水率沒有的地方不足的地方能夠有加成或者是有加權的這個機制好不好"},{"start":6014.806,"end":6039.46,"text":"來接下來我們請最後一位蔡議員委員針對這個部分好 那我們要當事長建議第一個就是說你們要跟經濟部甚至是行政院這邊反映你們是需要專案的一些計畫然後來挹注你們的預算要不然他們現在編的這17頁是在做不太多工作所以你們是需要有專案因為我剛剛從我們從這個無自來水地區"},{"start":6041.932,"end":6044.447,"text":"甚至我剛講的沿海地區需要換款"},{"start":6046.106,"end":6073.654,"text":"所以你除了要提升接水率之外還要防止漏水這兩大項目起來基本上你這樣看起來你根本沒多少錢好開那我要再具體再講幾個狀況就是說你們現在在做無自來水地區的一些要接管的時候事實上你們對於所謂的水源地我們知道水源地大概都是在山區嘛在山上的水源地你們的接管率是特低"},{"start":6074.995,"end":6086.147,"text":"這個是一個很不公平的他們是水源的這個提供地所以他們的土地利用是受到限制的但是你們對於相對我們對於水源地的接管這件事並沒有評比上的一個加分這是第一"},{"start":6089.991,"end":6106.342,"text":"第2個就是說你們目前在做所謂自來水接管用戶數在做評比的時候我不知道是不是水利署的一個意見你們把所謂的農舍排除在戶數之外就是說我這裡要接管 我要看這裡有幾戶中央有農舍 你們就把它剔除掉這個事情事實上對於農業地區是不公平的因為我們我們那裡的所在有很多是屬於農舍農舍既然它是農舍它一樣有自來水的需求"},{"start":6119.051,"end":6124.141,"text":"怎麼可以把它剔除掉呢?這是這兩個一個狀況希望董事長可以反映一下"},{"start":6125.318,"end":6152.613,"text":"好 謝謝那以上同仁喔大家都很了解自來水公司呢的專案計畫有很多突發像現在有地震啊什麼的突發的所以呢剛剛邱志偉委員也非常的用心喔他的目的也是希望你們真正要做在需求的這個上面所以針對邱志偉委員所提議的以及蔡議員所提議的請自來水公司還有等一下還有這個"},{"start":6155.174,"end":6170.661,"text":"曾經在委員所提議的請自來水公司必須要去說明清楚而且針對所需的趕快處理好嗎那這個部分就改為這個村市委員的改為主決議33案改為主決議那現在我們31案改為主決議33案改為主決議那這個我們"},{"start":6182.053,"end":6204.98,"text":"31到34案預算照列謝謝來接下來我們有這個回歸過來我們有通案的部分第2案第4案第22案那麼在剛剛的部分因為我們細項都已經處理所以不另外處理但是其中第22案是剛剛陳俊輝委員所以請陳俊輝委員請發言"},{"start":6208.261,"end":6224.449,"text":"謝謝因為其實我會說我22題凍結的原因也是這個漏水的問題其實你們有沒有去盤整過在你們各個線路的部分其實我們現在管線能夠去做監測有沒有這樣的機制"},{"start":6226.119,"end":6231.762,"text":"委員報告我們所有的官網都有監控。 沒有,你新的有,舊的呢?"},{"start":6231.762,"end":6237.905,"text":"我們會布我們的監測點,包括流量包括壓力。 布的監測點到底現在密集度到多少了?"},{"start":6237.905,"end":6239.126,"text":"你們並沒有全部喔?"},{"start":6239.126,"end":6241.927,"text":"我們前陣子有1萬多點阿,因為還是要關鍵點才去布那個監控點。 沒錯,全國1萬多點,夠嗎?"},{"start":6248.973,"end":6267.049,"text":"你知道整個所謂有偏鄉有市區所有一萬多個點購嗎?你們現在後面所布置的有可是我講的是前面那些舊管線是沒有的喔我們都滾動性檢討一些以前造型"},{"start":6269.096,"end":6298.059,"text":"太慢了因為你漏水喔基本上我告訴你我們在基層我們都很清楚每一次只要是發生了有一些好像水表有一些狀況如果是他內水就沒有話講可是幾乎查下去就是老舊管線的漏水然後漏很久都不知道然後因為從內水查查到外水才知道說哇這邊漏的很嚴重"},{"start":6299.878,"end":6318.445,"text":"我是講實際的狀況那我講的是這個老舊管線新的後面部件的你們當然用科技的部分你們都會加裝上去可是老舊的呢那你們現在都在做所謂的管線更新那可是老舊管線你更新的速度還是很慢"},{"start":6319.827,"end":6336.522,"text":"我們一年投入七八十億對 所以我覺得這是同步你們要同步就是說你們的檢測系統在還沒有更新老舊管線之前這個系統你們要怎麼做你們的部分你們同仁都很辛苦"},{"start":6337.543,"end":6358.123,"text":"我們都知道同仁很辛苦但是因為之前沒有這些科技所以我們必須用人力人工那人力人工就會變成沒有辦法那麼面面俱到可是沒有面面俱到漏了水這些都是不必要的損害對不對水就在補救還補免金錢在漏水"},{"start":6361.778,"end":6389.84,"text":"所以這個再拜託 董事長這個我們在講都是基層的聲音是我們監控系統點位不夠的地方我們再來加強你自己把你們的布點弄出來我告訴你把你們一萬多個布點報資料給我我要看你們的密集度到底在哪報到我辦公室 我跟你講啦 你的布點密集度絕對不夠"},{"start":6391.636,"end":6398.5,"text":"也因為這樣子你漏水了之後會造成整個土方的坍塌你知道嗎?"},{"start":6398.5,"end":6416.011,"text":"那水這樣刮刮刮所以那個都是一點影響到全部所以再拜託董事長因為我們其實講很多次說改為主決議謝謝那第22案就作為主決議好謝謝那我們現在有三個主決議請宣讀"},{"start":6421.4,"end":6433.069,"text":"新增委員楊瓊英等人所提組決議三案第一案建於台電公台電於4月1日起調賬電價台水公司增加15%約5億6千餘元請向行政院爭取致應"},{"start":6437.793,"end":6454.675,"text":"第二案為充分供應名聲原台水公司需向各水權單位包括水利署、農水署、北水處及各縣市政府付費取得原料請台水公司向上述單位進行協調以調降原水費用"},{"start":6455.885,"end":6477.325,"text":"第三案請台水公司針對目前借款餘額1044億元提出具體書面資料表列往來銀行及借款利率並請經濟部協助台水公司向銀行爭取優渥減免利率以降低利息支出宣讀完畢謝謝議事組人員針對三個這個組決議請教各位"},{"start":6482.216,"end":6503.226,"text":"那我們就照剛剛所宣讀通過那接下來我們繼續主決議的部分從35案來到60案來35案 遵照辦理通過36案 遵照辦理37案 遵照辦理38案 遵照辦理39案 遵照辦理通過40案 遵照辦理通過41案"},{"start":6507.81,"end":6529.461,"text":"遵照辦理通過42案遵照辦理通過43案遵照辦理通過44案44案我們說明一下因為我們下一階段的那個降低漏水率我們是要行政程序及審查的時程那委員裡面有提到因為台電電價的補償作業還在盤點中"},{"start":6532.302,"end":6550.77,"text":"水公司要到6月底以前提行政院比照台電電價補償方式有執行上的困難所以我們建議最後一段的文字能夠修正為中上建請自來水公司儘速提出降低漏水利114年到121年的"},{"start":6554.091,"end":6580.577,"text":"計劃積極爭取政府預算協助台水公司推動下一階段降落作業架構完善 董事長因為賴榮華委員是我們資深的委員但他現在不在現場我還是會處理要不然是委員不在現場我們就不處理但是你說競訴你是不是可以給一個時間點一下落委隊那當然是做不出來那你能不能有一個時間點這樣是不是比較好還是年底前這樣會不會比較好"},{"start":6582.881,"end":6585.422,"text":"6月底改為年底前,你們再轉給他講一下,我還是幫他處理。事實上就照根據修正文字通過45萬。"},{"start":6605.607,"end":6607.648,"text":"通過46案、通過47案、通過48案、通過49案、通過50案、通過51案、通過52案、通過53案、"},{"start":6624.415,"end":6624.515,"text":"請宣讀協商結論"},{"start":6647.145,"end":6657.835,"text":"宣讀台水公司協商結論第一案預算照列本案改為主決議第二案第三案不再處理第4案到第11案"},{"start":6659.697,"end":6681.94,"text":"預算照列其中第9案、側案、10案、11案均改為主決議第12案、13案使用材料費預算凍結100萬元提出書面報告後使得凍資第14案、15案、16案、17案均改為主決議第18案、側案、第19案到21案預算照列其中19案、20案均改為主決議"},{"start":6682.941,"end":6697.415,"text":"第22案改為主決議,第23案到26案預算照列其中23案、25案均改為主決議,第27案照案通過,第28案至30案預算照列其中28案、29案改主決議,30案撤案"},{"start":6701.363,"end":6722.736,"text":"第31案至34案預算照列其中31案、32案、33案均改為主決議新增11之1案、11之2案、21之1案均照案通過主決議部分35案到43案照案通過44案修正通過45案到60案均照案通過宣讀完畢"},{"start":6725.61,"end":6753.351,"text":"請問各位同仁有委員提案的部分照剛剛宣讀的這個結論通過沒有提案的部分均照列或者是隨同調整請問有無異議畫起來無異議通過我們113年度台水公司營業預算審查完畢那通過的決議文字授權給主席以及議事人員整理你們請先回座不好意思"},{"start":6756.231,"end":6776.761,"text":"主席來這邊宣告本會負責審查的113年度國營事業預算均與審查完略凝聚審查報告送財政委員會診本會審查結果請問需不需要交黨團協商要 這一定要預算一定要"},{"start":6778.1,"end":6791.652,"text":"好,那院會討論的時候呢需交黨團協商院會討論時有本席來說明那主席來在這邊宣告本日所列的議程處理完畢星期三上午9點我們繼續開會現在休息"}]}},{"id":"15855","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15855","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373dcb0d1d3af5c18c1c8bd03a951da4504b3be8d109af184be4758a56be7fb2edcb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月29日及5月2日二天一次會））","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-29","start_time":"2024-04-29T08:30:14+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-04-29T12:40:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":14986,"委員發言時間":"08:30:14 - 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員吳春生提出書面質詢權宜"},{"start":1897.384,"end":1912.183,"text":"一半外景訊到完畢．二委員所提書面諮詢．或相關資料列入紀錄並開談公報．三對委員諮詢．要求提供相關資料或未及答覆部分．請相關機關監促以書面答覆．4、113年度中政府總預算有關可能安全文化主管預算公務預算解凍案事案"},{"start":1912.843,"end":1938.561,"text":"審查完略均準與動之提報約會．4月25日報告事項．文化部次長列席就跨族群、跨平台、跨語言而紹服務計劃公視第三台轉型而紹頻道進行專題報告．並備質詢。．本議程由委員黃文凱等19人提出質詢。．軍情文化部專務司長王石思、財團法人、公用電視、文化事業基金會董事長、服務委員會及相關人員及其答覆說明。．另由委員陳冠廷等2人提出書面質詢決定．"},{"start":1939.682,"end":1951.257,"text":"一、報告及詢討完畢．二、委員所提書面諮詢．或相關資料列入紀錄並刊登公報．三、對委員諮詢要求提供相關資料或未及當付的部分．且相關機關件書以書面答覆．通過臨時提案以上宣布完畢"},{"start":1953.336,"end":1972.282,"text":"好那我看一下啊因為現在目前為止在場的委員沒有達到一決人數的三人數我們議事錄暫時不處理那我們今天的議程是邀請文化部、教育部、司法院、法務部還有數位發展部列席就表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫"},{"start":1973.422,"end":1997.51,"text":"相關單位的取締、防範及執法成效．我們來進行專題報告．並備質詢首先介紹在場的委員我們是有萬美玲委員介紹我們與會的官員我想各一個部門我們就代表因為我們都常常在這個地方大家都已經認識質詢過了文化部我們就歡迎政務次長王石思"},{"start":1999.417,"end":2025.427,"text":"那體育部的話就是體育署的署長正是中正署長那有內政部警政署刑事警察局的警政監林明佐好謝謝還有我們法務部檢察司的副司長簡美惠法務部檢察司的主任檢察官劉怡婷還有我們金融監管監督管理委員會的銀行局的組長劉萬基"},{"start":2028.306,"end":2049.7,"text":"還有數位發展部數位產業署的副署長林俊秀是謝謝數位發展部數位產業署的科長黃興富對還有我們主計總處公務預算處的專門委員李易柔好謝謝各位那現在呢我們就是請這個文化部王次長來進行報告報告時間是5分鐘謝謝"},{"start":2060.751,"end":2090.18,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位在場的先生女士大家好今天應大院教育及文化委員會的邀請文化部就表演票券黃牛票的取締防範及執行成效提出報告並備詢感謝各位委員的支持與指教那非常感謝大院去年在文化部修訂《文化創意產業發展法》第10條之一的時候修正條文的支持那這個條文對演藝表演票券被演藝表演票券以高於票面價格或定價上架販售還有以機器人程式掃票取得票券或"},{"start":2090.86,"end":2106.54,"text":"取票憑證這兩類的黃牛行為來加以遏止．那修正條文也在去年的6月2日已經正式施行．文化部跟內政部警政署有跨部會的合作．以防止藝文表演票券的黃牛行為．在修正條文後同步開設九女黃牛的專區．也來接受民眾的檢舉．"},{"start":2107.641,"end":2126.573,"text":"文化創意發展法所定義的黃牛行為．包括兩種主要的方式．一種是以所謂不正方式取得票券．一種是加價販售．從去年的6月2日到今年的4月15日為止．案件的這個樣的狀況如下．第一個在以不正的方式取得票券．"},{"start":2127.233,"end":2146.989,"text":"的這個裡面．文化部收受了131件的檢舉案．那這些檢舉案加上這個內政部警政署．刑事警察局．跟地方警察單位有自行調查．那目前有8件以草票機器人的程式．購買演唱會票券的案子．3件已經移送了地檢署．2件已經還起訴．其他案件也正在展開刑事調查．"},{"start":2148.07,"end":2152.796,"text":"在加價轉售的部分,文化部也收到了檢舉案2105件在這2000多件裏面有609件是可以繼續查查的有資料可以足夠查查,它的範圍也屬於文創法規範的範圍裏面目前300件已經處理完畢,完成率大概有五成"},{"start":2165.912,"end":2189.55,"text":"已經裁處30案,裁判金額為2084,490元另外,我們有一些配套措施．包括跨部會協調．我們除了跟行政院有來召開．跨部會協調．包括內政部警政署．內政部警政署在今年4月18日．破獲Max的搶票機器人程式．移送地檢署另外,我們也跟地方政府．積極溝通及協助調查．因為主要．"},{"start":2191.631,"end":2216.513,"text":"在調查幾個案件裡面是屬地主義所以由演唱地的地方主管機關來進行調查所以在去年有召開說明會跟教育訓練那在今年也北中南的三場教育訓練都已經完成那另外很關鍵的是推動實名制的輔導那我們除了開設這個檢舉專區之外呢也輔導這個業者來採取實名制那在去年的8月8號也發布了鼓勵流行音樂這個演出"},{"start":2217.774,"end":2242.502,"text":"實名制的補助的作業要點那目前的補助金額已經超過314萬元那在今年來說已知的演唱會有28場會採用實名制3場是部分實名制那在今年也收到了20件的這個實名制補助的申請案包括大家可能很熟悉的YOASOBI、美波、IU這些大概都我們都會持續進行辦理補助那最後的是針對政策宣導的部分我們為了避免很多"},{"start":2243.422,"end":2265.327,"text":"主席、民眾尤其是年輕學子因為不知道而觸法所以在這個政策選導上我們是連結教育部、地方政府還有民間的主辦單位以及售票平台來結合來加強宣傳讓大家了解說在這個黃牛票的販售裡面除了這個罰還之外還有罰金跟刑期的這個規定希望大家不要因為不知情而觸法"},{"start":2266.087,"end":2287.922,"text":"那在整體來說我們會持續接受民眾的檢舉那協同警政單位跟地方政府落實宣導跟查查那文化部跟這個地方政府跟警察單位會繼續陸力執法來維護整個藝文國內這個藝文表演票券市場的這個秩序那也非常謝謝委員們對於修法跟各種補助案的支持以上謝謝好謝謝王次長然後我們現在還有在場還有侯孟楷委員"},{"start":2295.493,"end":2308.066,"text":"目前我們委員人數已經達3人對於上次會議議事錄有沒有錯誤或是遺漏之處沒有的話那我們就議事錄確定接下來我們是不是請我們的鄭署長來做口頭報告時間5分鐘謝謝"},{"start":2313.527,"end":2332.893,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、先生大家好今日應邀列席大院教育及文化委員會進行專題報告．在此僅進行檢要報告．敬請各位委員指正與支持報告如下在相關法規方面為維護民眾觀賞運動賽事或活動的權益確保票券正常流通"},{"start":2334.134,"end":2354.895,"text":"運動產業發展條例徵定第24條之一條文經大院112年12月15日三讀通過總統於1月3日公布主要規範加價販售票券之行為與以不正方式利用電腦或其他相關設備取得票券之行為之相關罰則執行上得洽請警察機關協助調查及檢舉、獎勵授權執法法員等事項"},{"start":2357.037,"end":2378.575,"text":"在防範及配套措施方面在第一點定定授權執法及裁罰基準規例地方主管機關具執法已於113年2月29日定定發布運動賽事或活動票券違規案件檢取處理及獎勵辦法以及運動產業發展條例第24條之一第二項裁罰基準第二點設置檢取專區方面"},{"start":2382.598,"end":2398.657,"text":"民眾除得競向運動賽事或活動舉辦的所在地﹐地方主管機關進行檢舉之外﹐考慮其檢舉時﹐可能有判別運動賽事或活動舉辦地所轄﹐地方主管機關不一之情形﹐本部提署已於官網設置檢"},{"start":2401.76,"end":2415.991,"text":"檢舉專區．並將分籃與所轄地方主管機關進行查處．此外．也將緊密結合各地方政府聯絡窗口．共同協力落實相關法規規定及後續執行。第三點方面．運動賽事票券．非公自用防範作法．"},{"start":2417.272,"end":2441.734,"text":"為了保障消費者之權益．定有運動賽事票券．定型化契約應記載．以及不得記載事項。第5點．但書明定．以非公自用購買票券而轉售徒利者．企業經營者得不予退票。在執行狀況的方面．本部體育署運動賽事或活動檢舉案件．自本條例增訂第二十條之一公布執行後．其經共兩案。"},{"start":2442.555,"end":2456.645,"text":"類型軍屬價價販售行為．舉辦地軍委臺北市．已經已請臺北市政府需依相關法規進行審理．實際裁罰情形需在該機關查處之後才能確定先就案件分析如下第一案為TOYOTA2024年獨賣巨人"},{"start":2459.422,"end":2479.427,"text":"90週年大巨蛋交流賽．有4位檢舉人分別檢舉．有3人拒名、1人匿名．因判別的檢舉時間不同．該案經所轄地方主管機關查證屬實．且行政罰還主分書．送達被檢舉人之後．該機關將依前接辦法相關規定．核發獎金與最先檢舉者"},{"start":2480.467,"end":2506.949,"text":"第二案為UBA大專籃球聯賽．是一位匿名檢舉．因為沒有辦法辨識其身份．所以沒有辦法核發檢舉獎金在提升執法成效方面第一點我們持續加強教育宣導．未來一將透過辦理政策相關的說明會．座談會等活動．持續加強政府防範黃牛行為相關措施教育宣導．其餘多元"},{"start":2507.709,"end":2528.357,"text":"途徑以及民眾及相關政府單位共同營造票券正常流通的環境。第二點,我們滾動修正因應措施﹐配合實務查處如綁物售價等非典型加價販售票券之違規行為類型滾動修正執法原則﹐並周知各地方主管機關或對外提供民眾參考。"},{"start":2529.457,"end":2548.192,"text":"第三點,強化中央及地方的合作．未來若有熱門運動賽事或活動即將舉辦．將透過協助警政單位及地方政府．強化聯繫及執法成效最後,本部體育署除根據鼓勵民眾檢舉．並積極向黃牛呼籲勿以申事法外"},{"start":2549.272,"end":2563.755,"text":"．將朝協同警政單位及地方政府．強化聯繫及執法成效的方向邁進．以完善相關機制．確保運動賽事或活動票券正常流通以上報告再請各位委員給予本部支持與指教謝謝"},{"start":2581.558,"end":2606.302,"text":"主席還有各位委員、女士先生大家早那以下代表數位部來報告那陳本貴委員會邀請本部針對表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫相關單位的取締、防範、執法成效這個議題來提出專案報告深感榮幸以下請就本部業管部門向各位委員報告也聆聽各位委員的寶貴意見第一個是本部對數位轉型的作為本部積極從三發就是設發、產發跟突發的層面"},{"start":2609.423,"end":2612.293,"text":"增進社會共同協助產業轉型提升應變韌性"},{"start":2614.502,"end":2629.451,"text":"並建構全民的數位基礎可提供黃牛票檢舉平台的協助我想文化部根據《文創法》建立檢舉黃牛專區教育部體育署根據運動發展條例也設置檢舉黃牛票專區系就不同的法院進裁判機制來建立這些專區針對前階部會所分配建立的檢舉平台本部可以協助強化平台的資訊安全"},{"start":2640.698,"end":2658.509,"text":"支援文化部及教育部體育署．或者是平台的管理業者．建立完善的治安的一個防護機制．例如導入零信任的機制．降低系統治安的風險．防止駭客入侵．管理系統導致捲舉的機敏資料外洩另外"},{"start":2660.579,"end":2678.972,"text":"若調查檢舉案件時或平臺的維運中有資安事件的話．本部資安院想下的TWSIRCC．也就是臺灣電腦網路危機處理機協調中心．以建立產業通報的應變的一個管道．全天四小時接受資安事件的通報．"},{"start":2680.113,"end":2696.11,"text":"這個我們也可以來協助．與是本部致力於本國數位產業的發展．強化數位治理及推動數位基礎建設．同時協助公司部門數位轉型．若各部會有數位技術相關的需要．本部都很願意來提供協助．以上簡單報告謝謝大家"},{"start":2697.762,"end":2697.902,"text":"發言委員．"},{"start":2718.188,"end":2733.356,"text":"提出並於本委員會羅廷維委員質詢．結束之後．我們就立即進行處理．處理提案的時候若提案委員及聯署委員均不在場．我們原例是不予處理的．我們是不是首先請發言登記第一位的萬美玲委員質詢謝謝昭瑞我們有請王次長王次長"},{"start":2749.963,"end":2753.983,"text":"委員早次長早次長喜不喜歡張學友"},{"start":2757.435,"end":2781.103,"text":"還好那這一次我們看到至少你應該知道這一次張學友再度來到台灣開演唱會那前面是六場後面加場那前面那個六場那個票那個不叫秒殺那個是真的是打開就全部就賣光了那所以呢哀鴻遍野因為很多啊你們不太喜歡他但他在台灣擁有廣大的歌迷"},{"start":2782.343,"end":2796.656,"text":"所以其實非常非常多人上網去搶票那包括本席跟我們很多的朋友那一天幾乎是很多人都是把電腦打開非常多隻的手機都準備在那個地方來搶票這都是在尋正常管道但是我們總是看到在這個網站上面那就是不斷的那個訊號一直轉圈轉圈轉到大家非常心焦那最後幾乎都是落空"},{"start":2806.044,"end":2810.326,"text":"所以這個時候結果黃牛出來了所以我們其實看到在這一次不管是張學友或者是韓國的天后IU我想他們的票其實都非常的搶手所以即便張學友在家場一樣都搶光光但是我想我們回頭來看去年的9月份"},{"start":2827.273,"end":2841.02,"text":"我們有一名這個周姓的這個電腦工程師那他自己用這個自行撰寫的AI的外掛程式來用收取代購費的方式呢去幫民眾到各大這個售票網站去買票"},{"start":2842.981,"end":2846.344,"text":"那他這個搶購的機會都是熱門的這個演唱會的黃牛票三個月得手了152張這件事情次長一定知道那這也是在去年的6月我們這個文創法這個防堵黃牛搶票之後的一個首例那我們看到這第一案怎麼判的"},{"start":2861.397,"end":2875.067,"text":"他這個被捕之後他認罪但是呢就是返還了他的27.9萬的不罰所得那另外呢這個再罰金大概50萬再加一個50萬的罰金就換得了緩起訴所以次長你認為現在這個黃牛票搶成就是猖獗成這樣但是我們的首例是這樣的一個判例你怎麼看這會有嚇阻的效果嗎"},{"start":2887.015,"end":2900.719,"text":"跟委員報告我想第一個就是判例不管是檢察官的判斷或者是司法院的判斷我想在司法上我們還是尊重判斷的結果但是就這個實質的執行的狀況來說我們的確認為在這些比較重大的這個"},{"start":2906.561,"end":2907.161,"text":"4月29日及5月2日二天一次會"},{"start":2926.075,"end":2946.112,"text":"關鍵是他用不正方式掃票所以觸犯的是形式你說關鍵是什麼他用不正的方式取得也就是用掃票的行為那當然嘛那我想因為我們其實在文創法修法的時候我講得很清楚哪些要件您剛剛也報告過了可是我們看到這一位周姓的這個工程師他被查獲152張票以一張"},{"start":2948.794,"end":2955.719,"text":"以比較熱門的演唱會的平均票價我們用3000塊來算因為我們的罰金是10倍到50倍我們就用10倍去計算這樣算一下他至少應該要被罰到456萬但剛才您也報告過了現在全國的財主金額只有208萬可見這個案子是沒有用加價轉售的這個方式去裁罰的那如果是這樣的話這個裁罰的基準是正確的嗎"},{"start":2977.188,"end":2979.591,"text":"跟委員說明因為它畢竟是兩種行為型、樣態一個是加價一個是不正而它觸犯的是不正關鍵是出現在這裡所以它是以不正的這個法條的部分下去做規範那加價的部分因為它在這個案子裡面並沒有所謂"},{"start":2992.745,"end":3007.834,"text":"市長我想我們去年在討論這個修法的時候我們就是希望能夠針對用作弊程式搶票的人能夠被重罰但是我們文創法之後的這一期我們的罰的方式是剛剛您說的可能用作弊程式搶票給予懲處"},{"start":3009.615,"end":3025.831,"text":"但是對於他收這個代購費用然後去轉售這個門票那你是沒有用我們這個就是加購轉售的方式的10倍到50倍去罰那我覺得這個是一個很大的一個漏洞那您也看得非常清楚但是今天在這邊又要跟我講刑法那又要針對漏洞的部分其實我覺得視而不見我覺得難怪"},{"start":3032.037,"end":3060.099,"text":"如果文化部是這麼消極的一個態度的話難怪黃牛票會如此的猖獗所以次長那本席就在請教你如果現在有很多的社群其實我們打開這個網站上都可以看得到有很多代購啦代尋啦或代搶票的這個方式來提供演唱會的這個門票然後再去要求支付代購代搶的費用他等轉一手那這難道不算黃牛票的一種嗎?要看個案的狀態有可能是什麼叫做要看個案的狀態法現在那邊這麼清楚對不對?"},{"start":3062.02,"end":3080.845,"text":"沒有就是說因為如果代購的是必要開支也就是收錢的是第三方譬如說油資費啊車資收錢是第三方他就不會構成所謂的加價但是如果錢是他收去他就會是符合了所謂的加價轉售的要件所以就要看個案的情況事實上是什麼樣的狀況來做來做判決"},{"start":3084.073,"end":3102.948,"text":"市長,我們在臉書上去搜尋搶票可以看到一大堆售票、讓票、換票的演唱會的社團裡面有很多都是用代購、代搶票的方式如果我們有一個很大的漏洞在那個地方但是文化部的做法"},{"start":3103.268,"end":3116.745,"text":"跟說法都是說我們看看個案啊每一個個案再來看看啊我覺得其實是真的非常非常辛苦這件事情啦所以呢網站打開有這麼多目前都是用這樣的漏洞在做我不知道你是不想查還是裝的不知道那所以根據"},{"start":3118.547,"end":3127.049,"text":"根據文化部您自己提供跟北京的資料我們看到文化部的檢舉專區我們鼓勵檢舉嘛那從成立到現在4月15號統計下來符合文創法第10條之一的規定案件如果是加價轉售的案件現在有1640件那其中資料齊全的就有609件但是實際裁罰卻只有30件總裁罰進行的就是您剛剛在報告的208萬而已"},{"start":3145.752,"end":3162.951,"text":"另外,以不證方式來購票的案件有101件資料齊全的現在也有6件加上警察機關來自行調查的兩件現在有8件都是我們最重視的以掃票機器人的程式搶票的案件現在三件地檢署還在調查中兩件還起訴所以我想"},{"start":3167.256,"end":3181.571,"text":"市長我們如果依照這樣的一個裁判的案件數、金額還有這個處罰的方式那還有我們對待這個黃牛的態度你覺得這樣子到目前為止有辦法去嚇阻黃牛嗎那有沒有必要來加重如果我們現在"},{"start":3182.392,"end":3207.72,"text":"現在整個文創法過了以後但是我們看到演唱會的票還是黃牛層出不窮就像剛才我們討論的如果我們查緝執行力是很低的我們在認定上面其實又很寬鬆的我們罰則又不夠重那你難怪有這麼多黃牛他願意以身試法因為高利的誘惑之下他們就前仆後繼所以這一點次長覺得有沒有需要加重的這個必要出發"},{"start":3208.2,"end":3208.72,"text":"市長你不是回頭去呼籲啊"},{"start":3227.209,"end":3227.89,"text":"第二件事是說第二件事是說台灣"},{"start":3243.95,"end":3257.653,"text":"我們看到這一次不管是韓國的天后或者是這個幾個熱門的演唱會包括張學友那你看我們又看到又有竹科的工程師去撰寫這個搶票機器人還工人下載那我們有沒有去想過就像您剛說的如果各大售票系統演唱會的這個票券的這個系統這麼容易就可以去破解然後這個搶票機器人的這個程式都可以這麼快"},{"start":3270.635,"end":3295.617,"text":"那你有沒有想過有沒有找過比如說數位發展部阿去想想看怎麼去協助這些這個售票平台去強化他們的資安喔我們有跟售票平台做洽談怎麼做就是要求他們來做這些加強他的程式去防範掃票機器人的這個程式效果其實有的售票平台就做得比較好其實的確是看售票平台他們自己的數位能力他們有的會比較願意投資這個成本來做的他就會做得比較好"},{"start":3296.618,"end":3297.939,"text":"好 謝謝萬委員接下來我們請登記第二號的洪孟楷委員"},{"start":3331.794,"end":3339.148,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請文化部次長、體育署署長跟我們數位發展部的代表好我們請三位代表謝謝"},{"start":3344.644,"end":3363.463,"text":"委員長來抱歉我先請教鄭署長好不好來鄭署長我先請教另外一個議題也是大家非常關注就是說體育署這邊關心這地方政府優化我們的一些球員場地那其中包括說職棒場地的部分那我們就看到是說最近有兩個場地被大家來做比較一個是桃園"},{"start":3364.104,"end":3364.704,"text":"蘇長有沒有注意到這個新聞?"},{"start":3392.611,"end":3416.813,"text":"報告委員那我有打電話去請教那個運發局的局長那單一事件他是回應那個地方是他們懷疑應該是之前排水工程不小心遺落下來但是他們用整個金屬探測器去把全場去掃描過一遍應該是沒有其他的疑慮了那怎麼會有那麼離譜在一個球場裡面有L鐵條而且30公分"},{"start":3417.728,"end":3439.902,"text":"的一個L鐵條那還好是發現得早不是讓球員去發現不是在比賽途中發現不然很有可能就會造成我們的選手受傷我們的球員受傷那這樣的一個狀況球員工會這邊也講是說應該要再去做一個處理跟一個了解那現在是單一個案而已嗎目前是因為他們也後面也在中"},{"start":3440.683,"end":3445.435,"text":"中華紙棒聯盟的建議之下他們也是有整個金屬探測器整個掃過了目前這個問題應該是後面不會產生的才對"},{"start":3450.458,"end":3477.375,"text":"但有沒有確認是說到底那個因為如果這樣的話因為本席都不禁懷疑是說這是不是之前就已經有留下來的一個鐵條那本席也看過之前我們體育署也有補助我們澄清湖棒球場來做這一些整建工程當然這件不是體育署補助的因為我們最後一次補助澄清湖的案子是106年的時候2017年嘛 對不對所以說這一個案子不是體育署補助但是會這樣工程裡面發現球場裡面有這種鐵條其實是非常離譜的事情"},{"start":3480.477,"end":3498.017,"text":"這部分我們也是請運發局這邊特別要關注那個施工的品質而且到最後如果說這個施工品質有問題那尤其是驗收有沒有確認是說到有沒有人為疏失他們還在調查當中體育署能不能來要求我們地方政府這邊什麼時候來給我們體育署這邊做回報"},{"start":3499.378,"end":3521.398,"text":"報告委員因為這個案子畢竟不是我們補助的可能有困難啦但是我們還是會請他們說明我再來跟委辦這邊跟委員報告我覺得重點在於是體育署身為我們中央主管機關尤其是各球場的部分因為本期看到沒有錯這個案子不是體育署補助但是提高雄市政府在4月初也發一個新聞稿"},{"start":3521.938,"end":3533.951,"text":"說要積極爭取體育署之後的球場補助啊所以如果說用這樣的一個施工品質的話我真的很難想像說體育署如果補助更大筆的錢我們的施工品質要怎麼把關所以還是要請體育署這邊來確認說這有沒有人為疏失那以及後續的一個懲處好嗎好 謝謝來再來 次長"},{"start":3544.78,"end":3564.746,"text":"確認一下說我們現在這個新法上任之後我們有總共裁罰那我們如果說真的有檢舉的這個黃牛的一個部分我們有提供相關獎金嗎有有有檢舉獎金那檢舉獎金目前發了多少費用檢舉獎金目前已經有48000多吧已經發出去還有5萬多還在持續幾筆我們檢舉獎金已經發了幾筆"},{"start":3573.288,"end":3591.693,"text":"有三件46840元是已經發了對另外還有14案還沒有發那因為這14案有一些狀況需要最後的確認包括有的可能是匿名有的是有訴願可能被撤回或者是有牽涉到一個其中有甚至有牽涉到恐嚇取材所以還沒有發出"},{"start":3592.473,"end":3615.469,"text":"但是這14件,這三件已經確定的檢舉獎金都是有抓到這個相關的黃牛嗎?對不對?對對對,是本案成立的情況下那體育署這邊剛本席有看到就是說你的這個報告裡面是有一件對不對?6000多塊所以本席講是說這個相對來講也可以讓這個民眾來了解就是說現在我們是真的"},{"start":3616.229,"end":3617.009,"text":"但再拉回來喔"},{"start":3642.196,"end":3671.119,"text":"市長有沒有注意到現在黃牛說擔心受黃牛票吃上刑責而竟然改賣假票來詐騙這個有沒有注意到這樣的一個新聞現在其實委員非常清楚這個狀況現在其實最困擾的不只是黃牛而是詐欺就它轉成詐騙所以我們也要提醒就是說現在購買黃牛票的風險會更高它不只是說你要有很高的代價更重要的是你可能根本沒有那張票"},{"start":3672.08,"end":3676.182,"text":"所以在這裡 詐欺的狀況讓行政局也有提高他們整個針對詐欺這一塊的偵查那也是黃牛票的這個類型裡面我們覺得現在的趨勢了是啊 但是本席真的很納悶就是說現在跟連同剛剛我們萬委員之間質詢的地方一樣"},{"start":3691.047,"end":3718.418,"text":"就是說我們已經在過去這一年裡面大家各部會都已經討論了非常多次包括說藝文票包括說體育票我們就希望是告訴大家正確的觀念以及我們要防堵這樣子的一個黃牛的一個文化惡行但沒想到黃牛現在好像反而變本加厲從原本賣黃牛票而已現在變成是改做詐騙犯那到底我們要去做的是立法院修法是要對付黃牛怎麼感覺反而是導致黃牛變成是詐騙集團"},{"start":3720.361,"end":3722.142,"text":"這會不會讓大家覺得是說好像我們越打越炸"},{"start":3749.54,"end":3750.08,"text":"目前這兩家的中基還有在台灣嗎?"},{"start":3779.201,"end":3804.916,"text":"他們都在第一個是說他們有說不在台灣就是停止了公司解散那有一家是說他就改到國外去他不要做台灣的市場因為台灣有刑責的問題所以有刑責還是會有一定的嚇阻作用還是一般人我想應該是有一定有的那另外剛剛你有提到是說有一些售票網站相對來講是比較做得比較好有哪些售票網站是做得比較好的"},{"start":3805.487,"end":3827.41,"text":"委員我再私下跟你說這不是私下市長本席因為現在在討論我覺得這很務實喔我現在講是說很多的售票網站市長我要釐清一個觀念今天並不是要探尋什麼商業機密或等等的部分而是售票網站有很多那你既然已經有提到是說有一些售票網站他做得比較好是確實有把"},{"start":3828.311,"end":3850.427,"text":"小票機器人給排除在外的那你應該是以這樣子的一個條件跟規範來要求其他的售票網站也可以一起來做那如果說其他售票網站做不到的話是不是能夠請速發部這邊來協助技術的支援或是怎麼樣能夠提升把這個門檻整個加高而不是每一次這種售票的黃牛的這樣的一個行為都變成是消費者大家去承擔啊"},{"start":3851.488,"end":3859.337,"text":"第一個就是協助的部分就是因為其實這些售票平台他們有自己的資訊部門那我們的確有跟他們洽談希望他們提高這個技術但是這個資訊部門一樣也牽涉他投資進去的經費那我剛剛為什麼那投資多少經費可以讓文化部次長覺得是說這個售票網站是比較好可以掃除售票機器人"},{"start":3870.771,"end":3892.983,"text":"比較專業投資多少錢的事情其實我們並不知道要看售票網站經營他的售票網站的規模跟他想要達到的效果來 次長 這個就是積極度與否來 我覺得也請署長、次長這邊都要一起來瞭解因為剛剛其實我跟外媒領委員我們在台下當然這個是抓署長與並可是你的書面報告是講說你會積極的呼籲"},{"start":3897.605,"end":3924.636,"text":"黃牛不要以身試法我們現在講說哇我們的政府機關到最後我們的做法結語是積極的跟黃牛喊話你們不要再來買黃牛票了還給消費者不對積極用錯方向如果說剛剛依照市長你的邏輯其實這一點也是我們認為應該要從根本下手如果售票網站它可以加強它的資安讓掃票機器人沒有辦法有作用的話"},{"start":3925.256,"end":3945.532,"text":"那當然就可以還給一般普羅大眾大家就各憑本事我今天我開三個手機五個手機我去搶票至少我是真人我每個請兄弟姊妹爸爸媽媽幫忙一起搶我覺得這都還是情有可原因為我搶我是要為了我自己去看但是如果說有人用城市二月去掃票那他就是想要圖利想要盈利"},{"start":3946.072,"end":3970,"text":"那你剛講說有些售票網站他做得比較好可以把掃票機器人給排除那我們就要應該去了解這個售票網站做得比較好他是投資了多少錢假設五百萬就可以有這樣的一個掃票機器人給排除的話那講不客氣的我們就要求其他售票網站也要比照辦理否則你不應該在這整個公平的智慧平台公平的自由市場上你可能就會造成一個犯法的漏洞"},{"start":3971.341,"end":3986.694,"text":"應該是有主管機關這邊要有一點不管是強制力也好不管是這個誘導也好不管是相對補助也好我覺得都應該來去做來提高這種掃票機器人進入門檻讓還給整個售票一般的自由大眾市場不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":3987.014,"end":3987.094,"text":"市長,說實在話市長"},{"start":4009.417,"end":4038.094,"text":"我知道你今天很積極地搶話我希望你防堵黃牛的積極態度也跟在委員會備詢的時候積極搶話一樣積極就好最後我只提醒因為現在還有黃牛他們有變種就是不是只是賣票他們故意賣其他的部分賣麥克風一萬塊送兩張原價的演唱會票有沒有看到這種樣態有 這也被我們當作一個有被 有看到嘛那這種樣態能不能被檢舉"},{"start":4039.744,"end":4067.298,"text":"如果說我明明賣一支筆一萬塊但是我送兩張原價票那罪翁之意不在酒他根本不是要賣這支筆他其實要賣那兩張票那兩張票就是變形的黃牛那這樣的一個樣態可以被檢舉我們有查獲這樣的一個狀況嗎目前這個部分還在查查我們還沒有特定的個案是可以看到是因為綁物的販售而被定罪的那這樣子是不是能夠找"},{"start":4068.559,"end":4089.889,"text":"我們的這個法務部門也來演繹就說要提出質疑給販售網站或者是說一些這個網購平台這樣的一個樣態其實也是符合我們的黃牛條款也是會有刑責的要見可以什麼時候能夠做到是不是開會討論可以一個月內提出"},{"start":4091.135,"end":4120.367,"text":"謝謝,謝謝"},{"start":4121.431,"end":4124.072,"text":"好,接下來我們請陳培宇委員先說一下祝主席生日快樂,今天是主席的生日好,那我們...好,請次長還有金管會哪位代表"},{"start":4149.653,"end":4151.844,"text":"好,我們的劉萬機組長是不是?好,謝謝!"},{"start":4153.328,"end":4180.318,"text":"委員好,好,謝謝次長,謝謝金管會的同仁,我們來看一下喔在修法完之後,我知道文化部非常積極,然後其實文化部的同仁跟地方縣市政府的警政同仁其實真的非常的辛苦可是呢,我們之前為了這個修體育的那個條例喔,體育的黃牛票的事情我們辦公室在1月的時候先召開了一個協調會,我們想要知道以文化部的經驗如何可以提供給體育署更多積極的建議,讓相關修法可以快速進入軌道"},{"start":4181.318,"end":4204.923,"text":"可是我們在開相關會一幫文化部發現了一個很大的行政上的困境跟瓶頸我們來看一下就是目前我們只知道黃牛的帳號可是帳號對不到人民這件事情呢其實我們發現是很大的困境可是也因為在這個裁罰上它並不屬於刑事的部分所以我們就沒有辦法去要求行政單位給予協助那以至於在行政調查所以就卡在這邊"},{"start":4205.703,"end":4220.393,"text":"那我們後來知道文化部就是我這個投影片上文化部其實有發了兩次的公文去給金管會可是金管會都拒絕提供相關的資料次長我不知道您知不知道您的同仁遇到這樣的困境當然我們有再跟金管會再做協調跟了解"},{"start":4221.654,"end":4225.659,"text":"我們來看一下我們上個禮拜也才召開相關的會議跟金管會這邊做了討論其實我們認為金管會對銀行法相對保守的解釋底下我們當然認同不要輕易的給出很多有隱私資料的隱密資料的可能性可是因為我必須要承認當時大家在立法的時候並沒有討論到這一塊也因為沒有相關執行經驗"},{"start":4242.617,"end":4257.136,"text":"所以現在回過來看難道銀行法真的沒有可能在這件事情上先有些作為嗎那我們找到了第48條第4款其實有機會保留主管機關可以協助的但書不知道次長林這邊您怎麼看這件事情"},{"start":4258.171,"end":4283.518,"text":"跟委員說明這個因為是一個相對強力的立法就是說如果我們要用其他主管機關規定的情況來做的話第一它需要明文也就是說還是得修一個法來讓這個法源有所依據才行那這個法的效力當然就相對是強大的因為它有取得無條件不是無條件在有條件的形容下取得民眾最隱密最重要的資料的這個關鍵"},{"start":4284.838,"end":4299.623,"text":"可是我們聽文化部的同仁告訴我們其實只要取得相關姓名就可以了我們來看一下所以我們上禮拜在會議當中確實我們也跟這個金管會這邊有非常積極的討論希望可不可以有機會用暫行辦法先提供文化部相關調查的可能性"},{"start":4300.203,"end":4326.983,"text":"讓很多事情不要就卡在所謂行政財閥這邊就沒有辦法積極往下走因為如果是這樣就會出現剛剛其他黨的立委所質詢的好像看起來相關質詢效率很差可是我真的要為文化部的同仁喊冤喔如果在這個情況下確實很多事情就沒有辦法往下所以這邊我可不可以積極的拜託次長是不是可以跟金管會甚至請行政院這邊提出跨部會協商的需求讓金管會用暫行的辦法來提供文化部相關調查的可能性"},{"start":4327.694,"end":4351.83,"text":"我想任何可以取得資料可以協助讓這個黃牛的案子可以順利進行的方法我們都願意嘗試好那另外就是文化部跟教育部其實在修法之後我相信開始執行也遇到很多問題所以這邊我也要求文化部跟教育部要儘速召開還有沒有後續修法相關的建議搭配上現在執行的困難這個部分也請次長協助好好謝謝那下來我們要討論權中運那次長請回謝謝金管會這邊請回那有請署長謝謝庭運署署長"},{"start":4357.756,"end":4366.365,"text":"好 署長早安這一次全中運我跟郭育群委員在開幕的時候到現場然後在閉幕的時候我們有過去可是對於這個體育組織主辦單位我們認為所有的賽事舉辦完之後都必須要很多討論跟調查或者是檢討會議累積經驗不然每一次換到一個新的縣市很多錯誤可能一再犯錯 對嗎 署長你認同嗎"},{"start":4378.297,"end":4402.745,"text":"報告委員您講的沒有錯不過這部分我們目前有兩個案子分別給導覽體總以及公共體總針對所有的競賽規程、技術手冊還有整個操控各方面這個你知道我要講什麼嗎好那我們先往下看但是有一個署長你一定沒有注意到這是我去到閉幕現場我真的覺得非常不舒服的點我真的誠心要說禮賓人員全部都是中山女高的同學身為台灣第一位女性總統蔡英文總統她就是中山女高畢業的"},{"start":4403.425,"end":4422.116,"text":"但是我們看到在這個閉幕會的現場當然同學們非常積極、非常認真的付出然後我們縣市也問了老師可能只有志工服務時數我們絕對要給予學生高度的肯定可是我們發現體育署或者是主辦賽事的單位對於禮賓演員的想像非常的封閉甚至必須要說可能有一點父權怎麼說呢"},{"start":4423.877,"end":4426.04,"text":"在2016年起總統府在禮賓人員的選擇上他就有不同的性別甚至在2019年當時是陳菊當秘書長的時候他就有讓女性的禮賓人員可以自由選擇服裝可是我們看到在這一次體育署的主辦賽事裡面"},{"start":4439.199,"end":4459.982,"text":"相對的還是封閉跟比較負權的思維在禮賓人員性別選擇上甚至在衣服的選擇上當然大家可能覺得看起來是小事可是我必須要說我們從總統府開始就已經做了示範可是因為體育署會承辦全國非常非常多相關的賽事主辦了所以是不是這個部分體育署應該要更有一些想法我幫委員沒有問題這部分我們會把它列入未來的指引"},{"start":4460.382,"end":4474.549,"text":"好 謝謝署長接下來除了這個衣服之外其實另外一個發生爭議的事情我想署長你一定非常清楚在禮拜四就有臉書貼文還有相關的新聞稿那體育署你們也說不會接受競賽一年的處理可是我要先問一下體育署這邊有跟當事人選手聯絡了嗎"},{"start":4477.55,"end":4492.659,"text":"報告委員這部我們是透過游泳界的在做一些指導事實上我們其實在幕後我們也是告訴這位教練選手他們其實是可以提出一些申訴跟一些聲音出來所以你們其實並沒有直接跟選手聯絡我們來看一下"},{"start":4494.54,"end":4518.093,"text":"其實署長如果你記得上一次我就跟您問過關於滑冰選手要拿那個國光獎章的事情無設獎金我也希望你們可以快速跟選手還有家長溝通可是我們到目前為止跟他們打聽了你們也都還沒有跟他們溝通我之前一直在跟署長強調一件事情就是孩子們這些中學生運動選手他們的感受我相信很重要可是以這一次事情來看我手上有一份陳情書如果署長你要看的話我等一下會後可以給您這是完整的家長"},{"start":4521.975,"end":4542.995,"text":"寫得非常非常清楚的陳情書他自己甚至翻了非常非常多的法條寫得非常完整我要說的是目前這個家長說他可以接受孩子因為違規被取消這一次參賽資格的狀況可是他更心疼的是孩子當場遇到的說法跟事後體育署還有大會對外的說法跟他們在現場看到的事實非常的不同甚至裁判長還指責"},{"start":4544.236,"end":4544.877,"text":"8位委員的確所以當然規則已經寫在那邊那是我們在競賽"},{"start":4559.813,"end":4585.473,"text":"委員會在當時在審查的時候的疏漏這部分我們會改正但其實當下我們在幕後是有指導間接的去指導這一位的加檔教練來做這樣的事情其實我們是希望能夠游泳協會能夠在這部分能夠儘速的去進步啦但是因為主辦還是體育署啦我當然知道協會有他的角色我相信組長我們都很清楚所以我後面才發一個聲明就是希望所有的賽事都應該要去改變他們的觀念那這部分我們會去督促"},{"start":4585.973,"end":4609.388,"text":"好 因為時間有限我是不是可以快速跟署長溝通一下目前我們希望要求裁判第一優先應該是公立中正執行規則而體育署作為主辦單位更應該要面對規則的罰則過於粗糙因為我們來看我們自己後來事後去看那個規則有非常多很大模糊的空間似乎看起來是為了保留給當場的裁判一個權限可是看起來我覺得目前造成很多爭議這件事情我覺得非常讓很多現場的家長跟教練還有選手非常的痛苦"},{"start":4613.331,"end":4639.313,"text":"再來面對爭議這件事情我知道體育署有發新聞稿署長你自己臉書有寫了可是到底有沒有在有人在第一線第一時間跟孩子溝通跟選手溝通跟家人溝通有在高中體總的部分有在進行再來就是我相信就是署長您剛剛說的相關的運動仲裁相關制度設計還有完善申訴救濟的機制這件事情我相信署長也會是您所在意的就是讓整個事情更制度化這件事情所以我們也希望後續體育署網這個部分再加強是沒有錯"},{"start":4639.993,"end":4655.238,"text":"可以再給我一點時間嗎?好不好意思好最後最後我要講最後一件事情喔我想這個禁藥新聞署長你應該有看到對嗎?我很清楚好那我們當然知道手不能伸入相關的人士喔可是明明體育署每年都援助這個禁藥防治基金會上千萬"},{"start":4656.098,"end":4682.17,"text":"可是因為利益防弊的問題他很有可能就導致臺灣的選手被禁賽我想署長你比我都還要清楚可是我覺得這件事情真的很不可思議當然我知道體育界有體育界的慣例目前我所聽到的消息就是如同你剛署長說很多幕後的消息說相關這位老師他即將他會被力挺我個人對人事我沒有意見可是我要考慮到所有選手就如同署長您自己在臉書上說的所有的教育文化委員會的委員都在提醒您關注選手權益這件事情"},{"start":4683.831,"end":4708.375,"text":"所以站在維護選手權益上我們是不是應該要正視這一次的事件然後相關的人事風險不要讓人情的關係凌駕了選手權益之上這個部分我的相關建議禁藥防治利益迴避這件事情我想體育署要有更多角色再來禁藥防治基金會它目前設置的位置我故意把這個地址貼出來桃園龜山文化一路250號我想署長你應該非常熟悉可是它的相關分工體育署跟中華奧會應該要相關的討論維護它的獨立性"},{"start":4712.397,"end":4738.353,"text":"因為這一切都是為了選手的權益不知道這部分書長可不可以快速做個回應報告委員那這一次其實我們還是有一介入那我基本上我們跟他所謂的我們績效基金會這邊屬於我們的NATO我們剛剛說你們的專業其實在利益迴避上相關的法條都很非常的明確那如果你們法條上自己解讀不清是不是應該直接向WADA來做一個釐清所以他們其實沒有報應該不能說檯面上的包庇而是他們就主動向WADA來揭露來跟WADA請教這樣的樣態"},{"start":4740.254,"end":4741.096,"text":"謝謝陳委員接下來我們請葛如君委員"},{"start":4763.921,"end":4770.226,"text":"謝謝主席,有請文化部王石思次長、體育署鄭世忠署長以及內政部警政署林明佐警政監,謝謝"},{"start":4783.407,"end":4801.589,"text":"好今天照有安排的專報題目特別具意義因為文創產業發展法針對黃牛票的問題修好滿一年我們來看一下這是我們的打牛報告剛剛已經有很多提過我都不說了這個藝文票券移送案件五件"},{"start":4802.726,"end":4830.675,"text":"體育署這個更誇張四個多月具體成效只有民眾檢舉案件兩件我就在此請教一下文化部體育署跟警政署難道這些零零星星的案件就是這個聯合打牛一年的懲治成果嗎難道二指黃牛完完全全是一般民眾的責任嗎對於主動查緝的成效這是未提可不可以回答我是不是民眾檢舉才是我們唯一的做法是或不是"},{"start":4832.778,"end":4852.447,"text":"不是,因為其實為什麼案件變得很少很關鍵的原因是因為其實從去年修法之後我們有跟這些售票平台跟主辦單位來做協商所以大量的演唱會尤其是特別受歡迎演唱會幾乎都採了實名制所以打得很好嘛,是不是沒有,它在整體來說數量確實是有下降的"},{"start":4853.708,"end":4872.384,"text":"我們就認為你們都一致了那我們來看一下打開社群軟體隨便一看張學友、IU Energy的門票每一個演唱會出來大家都集體哀嚎甚至有人說臺灣就是黃牛天堂我們再來看一下以這個特區B為例原票價是5000多塊結果轉售價額3萬多塊甚至顯示曾經高達7萬塊漲幅高達1000%超過12倍"},{"start":4881.231,"end":4896.247,"text":"剛剛已經都提過了花錢事小萬一被騙勒剛剛市長也很謝謝你說有知道現在黃牛現在要變成詐騙黃牛了這個真的是非常危險但是您說成效很好我們來看一下從去年5月到今年3月"},{"start":4897.187,"end":4912.539,"text":"將藝文票券以超過票面金額定價販售者被檢舉的案件一共580件其中加起來56%加價金額都低於1000元這跟我們認知的黃牛產業是完全不同的"},{"start":4913.52,"end":4935.562,"text":"結果我們看到了很多我們據悉我們去了解以後發現．很多都是不熟悉法律規範的學生．或者是朋友．他們只不過在轉售票券的過程當中．無意間加上一些手續費所犯下的案件．結果你們文化部的書面報告在結語的時候說．做得很好加價轉售金的大幅下降．"},{"start":4936.623,"end":4953.678,"text":"實際上我們認為根本沒看到滿天的老鷹在飛還沾沾自喜的覺得打了一堆小鳥想請教一下次長文化部到底針對黃牛的案件到底是要打老鷹還是打小鳥到底要主動還是被動可不可以分享一下"},{"start":4954.451,"end":4973.85,"text":"跟委員說明以張學友的案件來說現在我們已經接獲了112件那有14件都已經在調查那有些現在已經甚至在進行監警員的到場的一個陳述所以是要打老鷹馬的啦所以我們下一次我們就來看一下這個案件是不是又是1000塊囉其實最重要的事情是不要再有黃牛這才是比較關鍵的事情"},{"start":4974.931,"end":4988.563,"text":"講是很容易講但我們接下來就是要看數字好不好然後我們也要看成果零零星星的成果一千塊以上佔56%這都不是我們要的不要持續的消極、被動希望主動、積極"},{"start":4989.924,"end":5003.77,"text":"接下來賴準總統提出的行動Active創新Innovative的內閣難道是因為沒有行動力沒有創新嗎在講現在嗎我們先來講一下創新的部分主席有請數位部產業署署長黃興副科長好 數位部請"},{"start":5008.892,"end":5015.073,"text":"因為我時間有限你一邊移動的時候我就先一邊說明今天數位部來列席書面報告只提到了強化檢舉平台資訊安全但剛剛我們文化部次長已經跟你們求救了很多平台業者的數位能力不一樣但我們來講創新不是只是改變一些程式碼就可以我們來看一下韓國的SK集團打算利用Alpha Launch的區塊鏈技術和NFT非同質化的特性來做未來票券"},{"start":5037.518,"end":5060.515,"text":"全球最大的票券平臺Ticketmaster．去年也推出了區塊鏈代幣門控Token Gating的功能．請問一下數位部．目前有沒有收集國內外．用科技甚至是區塊鏈的技術．來遏止黃牛的案例．甚至進一步進行相關的研究．台灣有ArcaSwap有做過了．國外有OpenSea．有沒有研究過．有或沒有"},{"start":5068.583,"end":5080.235,"text":"有嗎?那有沒有相關的報告?網路上面有嗎?有沒有演繹未來的做法?有沒有給予支持?有沒有連結文化部來做一些跨部會的合作?"},{"start":5086.624,"end":5103.116,"text":"臺灣是科技之島希望數位部能夠跨部會來協助文化部真的是要用魔法來打敗魔法我想我們真的是不能被動要更積極接下來想跟次長分享兩項訊息在此先請教一下次長知不知道母湯是什麼意思"},{"start":5103.656,"end":5124.013,"text":"母湯 台語的不行 台語的母湯嘛 對啦 你很了解我也很了解但我們問了這個Meta這家公司新釋出的最強最強大的Lama3的這個AI問他說你知道母湯是什麼意思嗎 就他說是母親的湯啦 很溫暖啦 像母親煮的湯一樣你如果覺得電影很好看 就要說好母湯啊"},{"start":5127.156,"end":5144.07,"text":"一樣的問題我們拿去問臺灣的AI計畫臺德7B的版本得到的答案是母湯就是厲害到不行你看到一個運動員比賽很優秀就說這下子他母湯了所以次長我們下一次到電影院看電影看得好看是不是要說母湯母湯我再此先強調一下這不是臺德不好"},{"start":5148.573,"end":5164.876,"text":"而是他們沒有得到足夠的訓練和資料這是非戰之罪但是如果在AI的時代我們造成了文化覆滅這不是我們要看到的問題我們接下來再問您這個人物、電影人物我們應該要叫蜘蛛人還蜘蛛俠在台灣請回答這是一般文化的問題我平常是叫蜘蛛人那另外一個電影明星你要叫他李奧納多還萊昂納多"},{"start":5177.416,"end":5192.91,"text":"臺灣的翻譯應該是李奧納多很好啊接下來還有更多的例子這是沙丘走紅的這個Zendaya結果在臺灣大概有幾十種藝名有人說他叫千代亞某一間公司說的另外一個電影公司說叫新帝亞中國大陸稱讚達亞"},{"start":5195.592,"end":5199.456,"text":"結果現在我們在網路上跟人家對話講來講去台灣的名字根本就消失了為什麼因為你一大堆亂七八糟的名字我們對文化部來講我們沒有任何的指引沒有任何的立場我就在此請教一下文化部我們要不要乾脆放棄台灣的藝名"},{"start":5212.668,"end":5213.289,"text":"我想文化內容的主體性跟台灣自己在這些"},{"start":5232.83,"end":5251.516,"text":"我想應該是要有方法來訓練這些AI讓他有更多的台灣內容的資源才會回答正確的答案AI的資料靠大邊走我們有沒有可能以官方的立場由文化部來鼓勵建立一個全球電影相關藝名上映的資料庫來跟AI做好好的協作"},{"start":5252.406,"end":5276.756,"text":"有沒有機會演繹啊這個我們來演繹好 謝謝喔那接下來拉馬山我們剛剛看到這個母湯也是對我們這個文化慢慢的變成邊緣啦我們台灣可能會在AI時代變成文化難民我手邊呢有這個文化部提供給國共會台的資料清單礙於版權因素很多的產品管設介紹等等資料嚴重不足"},{"start":5277.216,"end":5306.416,"text":"反觀我們的鄰國日本早就已經大膽all in AI．無論版權．官方允許任何資料用於訓練人工智慧請教次長．文化部是不是可以針對本身所擁有的資料庫產品．研議進一步全面開放給台德訓練使用．未來升級文化部補助的案件．是不是可以研議在一定的限度之下必須將成果開放給台德．或者其他台灣支持的大元模型來使用訓練"},{"start":5307.456,"end":5315.62,"text":"以上兩點希望文化部可以加強與藝文界的溝通並著手進行相關研議將研議成果於一個月內順便回覆本席"},{"start":5318.86,"end":5339.399,"text":"謝謝文化部最近砸了8000多案弄了一個歌仔戲很多人有很多的意見我們先不管如果能把這樣的戲曲資料劇本開放用來訓練AI讓外國朋友、外國AI都能更了解台灣的戲曲這不是很好嗎但是為什麼我們的這些資料都不公開呢到底是不敢被他們看還是怕他們被發現錯誤呢"},{"start":5342.082,"end":5356.398,"text":"我想國科會接下來還會持續進行大圓模型的訓練我們現在只有7B可以開源商用13B只能學研用途資料還是嚴重不足M公司的400B都已經在訓練當中很快要釋出"},{"start":5357.099,"end":5385.127,"text":"為了台灣能夠持續保有文化自主性這個我相信都是跨黨派的意識我們必須要在相關強勢的其他中文語言的模型之下一定要見縫插針相較於豐沛的其他類型的中文資料繁體中文的資料本來就稀少我們一定要跨部會尤其是文化部將資源匯聚台灣才有可能在中文的語言模型AI的下一個世代找到我們台灣自己的定位謝謝"},{"start":5387.349,"end":5390.49,"text":"好 謝謝葛如君委員 謝謝各位好 接下來請我們的召委柯珍非常謝謝我們的主席那我是不是請文化部跟我們體育署有請文化部跟體育署"},{"start":5414.428,"end":5416.469,"text":"大家好,謝謝兩位。我想我們過去查辦黃牛都是用涉違法第64條第二款,那目前為止我們在很明顯的就是沒有辦法達到這個阻嚇的一個效果,所以我們文化部就說的文創法嘛,那我們體育部去年也說的運動產業"},{"start":5431.514,"end":5436.72,"text":"在今年1月就來實施可是呢剛剛委員已經非常多提過了即使是這樣子的部分這個法環也提高的行動也提升了那兩位這個身為這個部門的主管者你們認為目前的黃牛問題有解決嗎回答是或不是回報黃牛的問題絕對是比之前黃你們認為有解決那鄭署長呢你認為呢"},{"start":5454.757,"end":5465.662,"text":"目前有比較好一點的現象但是依然還是不夠的有比較好但是不夠大家都認為好像有下降了那我看剛有很多委員特別提到你看這個數據來說我們就從文化部的檢舉黃牛區來說的話這個地方的財儲嘛成案率大概是28.9啦然後不正的方法呢成案率不好意思只有4.5"},{"start":5478.587,"end":5480.628,"text":"請問鄭署長,這個體育署有沒有比照文化部設立檢舉黃牛專區的網站?有,是不是?你覺得好用嗎?"},{"start":5501.548,"end":5528.247,"text":"報告委員這部分的確有在署內的主管週報要求我們的產業主要來提供真的是非常難用來我們來看一下有多難用你知道嗎目前你要先找到檢舉黃牛專區的兩種方法比較複雜是從首頁上方的公告專區再點新聞專區再到左邊的資訊總檔才可以看到第二種方法呢就直接在首頁的bar可以看到但是你如果不去特別點它的話呢還要慢慢跑慢慢跑署長你知道跑多少嗎你知道跑多少秒"},{"start":5530.885,"end":5544.997,"text":"我告訴你起碼10秒以上哇塞我們這個資訊的時代大家點3秒鐘都沒有辦法你要10秒鐘所以呢最荒謬的是很多民眾找不到運動賽事去哪裡他直接跑到文化部的檢舉黃牛的專區去檢舉那目前體育署提供的資料就有兩屆這是許議署的宣傳不利還是怎麼樣幫委員這部分我們來優化"},{"start":5552.062,"end":5579.229,"text":"你們當然要優化而且我們真的是誠如剛剛大家所提到的這個次長你們兩位不會這個黃牛檢舉的專區有沒有辦法折成一個平台啊就折成一個平台書發部有沒有辦法有有這樣的相關建議啊書發部你們都還在解你們都好像都好像覺得都可以來做這個城市上面的撰寫我真的覺得如果沒有辦法的話乾脆找最近很紅的那個臺灣地震數報的APP的那個高中生來幫忙啊可能好一點啊會不會"},{"start":5581.149,"end":5595.075,"text":"這數法部真的要很努力否則的話真的是沒有辦法好接下來因為大家時間的關係為什麼這個部分大家都覺得剛剛因為轉售二手的票券很多人就在講嘛大家都知道有這些的社團每個人都已經提出非常多這個社團裡面"},{"start":5596.596,"end":5597.556,"text":"請問你們有沒有主動來去對這些所謂的社團有沒有主動來做這樣的事情有沒有主動調查嗎"},{"start":5617.233,"end":5645.772,"text":"你們有啊你們還是到底是誰管我都不曉得是文化部大家都認為可不可以下架因為民眾看到這些他就會想要進去可是我沒有主動調查但是警政署我真的要說真的有嗎因為你看看你們通常都是用釣魚的方法對不對通常警政署裡面的警察都用釣魚的方法喬裝成買家然後把抓出這些黃牛問題是警政署你送出法辦之後你覺得法院會不會有判法有沒有"},{"start":5647.981,"end":5665.671,"text":"目前我們移送案件都進入增審然後你覺得要怎麼樣嗎?大家最生氣的是我到這個司法院的裁判書系統去查解鎖過去黃牛違反社會法移送的判例你知道嗎?真的是要看運氣有些法官有判罰 有些不判罰原因都是什麼?"},{"start":5666.391,"end":5672.375,"text":"他說呢雖然黃牛有這個所謂的轉售的意圖但是警員你們的員警因為都是調出人來嘛他們並沒有買售門票的意思所以沒有辦法構成圖利的行為為什麼會是這個樣子那表示你送老半天進去他都用這個方法來不判判那難怪黃牛這麼樣的囂張嘛不是嗎然後呢你那個警政署到底是一個法規的問題還是法官自由行政的問題還是你們偵查的方法"},{"start":5694.212,"end":5710.131,"text":"可不可以回答一下剛剛委員所提到那是一個個案的偵查手法那目前文創法跟運採條例修法過之後對於這樣的行為已經有專法包括鐵路法也是一樣對不起喔 那個屬長我還在特別問你即使有這兩個文創法還有這個部分"},{"start":5714.116,"end":5733.236,"text":"目前為止都還是用社會法來辦啦目前為止都用社會法來辦而且文創法跟運發條例不分只有兩件事那到底是因為警政機關都是用社會法來移辦還是到底是怎麼樣因為基層警察告訴我他們已經詐騙案已經分身罰數了他們根本沒有在辦這個因為真的是壓力"},{"start":5734.477,"end":5734.657,"text":"我們統計到4月29日按照這個"},{"start":5764.298,"end":5782.041,"text":"文創法第10條之一第三項行政法的部分我們已經移送6件6人6件6人這跟我們所預期的還是不太一樣然後我要特別文化部所有3件你們所有5件到底有幾件送進建署不知道但是我還要看一個大家比較有興趣的剛剛已經有人提到的"},{"start":5782.501,"end":5787.103,"text":"黃牛到戶看到收法收法Bird Pink在我們高雄辦這個演唱會就能夠機器人就可以橫掃一千多張的門票而且原價是八千八還可以救到一萬三到九萬一萬三到九萬而且光是這一位大黃牛你知道嗎他就講過了兩場演唱會很賺兩千多萬"},{"start":5805.672,"end":5807.355,"text":"他用機器人掃票掃了一千多然後用外掛的方法大量取票新法最多只能罰三百萬他賺了兩千多萬請問這個法有用嗎"},{"start":5817.073,"end":5817.313,"text":"7年還從來沒有被檢舉"},{"start":5847.193,"end":5864.044,"text":"一場演唱會賺了兩千多萬而且這個還不斷地還在上演當中所以你怎麼來看待難怪黃牛老心宅宅啊而且你看你用這個方法用不正方法的掃票還罰得比較輕這種現象是非常詭異的你不覺得這個法很奇怪嗎法的部分可能要請主管部會回答"},{"start":5870.859,"end":5888.918,"text":"我覺得這個就是我們今天就一一提出來我想這個整個彙整之後呢可能都要跟我們提出報告還有包括所謂的這個實名制喔畢竟連黃國昌粉絲都高喊實名制但是呢也提出了這個次長剛剛也提到了有這個補助要點但現在成效到底是怎麼樣不好意思次長"},{"start":5890.011,"end":5896.174,"text":"跟委員報告以今年113年來說已經有28場演唱會會採取實名制對 但是你知道實名制有很多的主辦單位喜歡強調演唱會秒殺來作為他宣傳的賣點為什麼 諷刺的是黃牛的掃票舉動也能夠讓業者達到秒殺的效果"},{"start":5909.742,"end":5910.102,"text":"有什麼風險呢?"},{"start":5928.319,"end":5929.319,"text":"實名制現在看起來是最有效的阻擋黃牛的方式那所以"},{"start":5954.546,"end":5982.096,"text":"實名制沒有因為他沒有辦法是強目前不是強制的對你就是鼓勵的方法而且很多工讀生他的審核一次就能夠入場不像日韓他即使用實名制他還是有非常多的層次所以他可以達到所以這個部分即使要實名制我覺得未來真的對於很多的漏洞很多的細節真的還是要強加的舉例我覺得這個才有辦法不過總而言之我還是希望各部會對於黃牛的阻止我們為什麼今天要排這樣的一個案子就是修了這個法之後黃牛"},{"start":5983.837,"end":5984.578,"text":"謝謝柯志文教委"},{"start":6012.435,"end":6013.556,"text":"文化部次長文化部次長,謝謝"},{"start":6034.705,"end":6057.565,"text":"市長最近因為這個張學友演唱會大家買不到所以引起非常大的民怨所以黃牛票這個事情大家應該要重視但我看了你們的報告我覺得你們的報告寫得天花亂墜但是跟實務執行有非常大的落差所以我想問你一下你到底了不了解現在執行上遇到的困難第一張學友演唱會你知道他們總共賣幾萬張出去嗎你知道嗎"},{"start":6061.974,"end":6079.07,"text":"你不知道?欸我們張學友演唱會大家名片成這樣你們連這個細項都不知道你知道我們已經收到122件的檢舉案我問他會賣幾萬張出去不要答非所問啦我跟你講啦他總共9場演唱會分兩次賣啦第一次賣前面6場賣了大概五六萬張第二次賣後面3場賣了3萬張每一場都是秒殺"},{"start":6083.214,"end":6102.877,"text":"很多人上去準備要買就買不到了我想問一下次長你相信嗎你相信每一個人都是他單純自己要看所以等在電腦前面然後一開賣就買不到你覺得有可能嗎這就是沒有踩實名制的很大的缺點這跟實名制沒有關係啦你不要把什麼事情都推給實名制你有沒有了解原因在哪裡"},{"start":6103.973,"end":6105.916,"text":"為什麼會這樣?不是!錯!主要就是有掃票機器人很嚴重嘛!那這個掃票機器人在哪裡你知道嗎?"},{"start":6117.657,"end":6145.031,"text":"你們現在之前抓了一個竹科工程師後來就大肆宣傳好像什麼業績一樣實際上你去看那個竹科工程師他總共就是幾個人用他的那個程式去買而已真正大尾抓不到所以當時你們在發這個新聞的時候下面網友罵翻了都說真正的黃牛都抓不到只會抓這個小的所以背後到底什麼原因要去了解嘛那我跟你講啦實際實務上我們也去問了警政機關"},{"start":6146.252,"end":6162.164,"text":"譬如說針酒隊的他們到了那些平台要去查為什麼有人可以用程式一下子幾秒鐘把所有的票全部掃完結果警察到了平台警察說我為什麼要配合你除非你找司法機關來搜索否則我不配合"},{"start":6163.484,"end":6176.953,"text":"實務上就面對到這樣的困難嘛我們都說你們知不知道這個事情所以文化部現在要去找那些平台去問清楚就是說到底背後到底是誰可以這樣子有沒有內部的人在從中"},{"start":6179.378,"end":6196.574,"text":"用這個事情在掃票有沒有去了解有的確這些平台願不願意提供這些使用者的賬號個資的確是一個關鍵以現在來說像FB跟D卡大概就是最不願意提供的也是他們那就是你要解決的問題嘛所以我現在你不是跟我一樣我們現在是把問題跟你講"},{"start":6198.656,"end":6221.716,"text":"市長剛一開始還根本不了解狀況還在跟我講說因為沒有實名制這跟實名制有什麼關係這個嚴重度的原因而且實名制你也沒辦法推廣到全部人採用嘛我們現在就要解決這個問題因為是眼前的民怨嘛所以第一個請你文化部去召集相關的機關針對這些平台到底為什麼一開始掃票機器人可以把票全部掃完了這個是一個最大的民怨要去了解"},{"start":6222.356,"end":6240.755,"text":"這第一件事情第二件事情我看到你們講說你們要有關於如果是加價轉售基本上你們就看一下檢舉人的要件有沒有符合就直接轉給地方政府對不對因為查辦的單位是地方政府是地方政府對很好文化部就推給地方政府那你有沒有去了解一下地方政府執行的困難有沒有"},{"start":6241.115,"end":6255.142,"text":"有我們困難在哪裡包括教育訓練啊包括一般的溝通都一直有在教育訓練就是官樣文章我是問你說你有沒有實際去了解地方政府在執行這件事情所遇到的困難有地方政府的困難關鍵仍然是取得當事人的關鍵的個資"},{"start":6256.843,"end":6281.004,"text":"你就知道嘛因為文化部做的事情是最簡單的你們做的是檢舉人只要有資料有姓名有資料或是他有提供FB或LINE的對話你就覺得完備了嘛你就轉給地方政府但是真正困難的是地方政府他要去收集被檢舉人的資料那我就問啦各縣市政府的文化局他有這個調查權嗎他只能夠收到這個檢舉案他只能發文給"},{"start":6282.672,"end":6297.208,"text":"FB或LINE或是發文給平台問說有沒有相關資料可以提供可是通常FB、LINE或是平台根本不會理文化局嘛他沒有調查權嘛甚至於說他們要去查那個金流金流連金管會也不會理他們"},{"start":6299.209,"end":6325.21,"text":"警察局也不理他們警察局說各支的部分只有在12種樣態比如說違反生命安全等等樣態的時候才會提供所以文化局在前端一開始要去查被檢舉員資料的時候就查不到那你告訴我說你對於黃牛你的報告寫天花亂墜我們有2000多件有其中600件怎樣怎樣怎樣但具體的困難你們都沒有去協助解決推給地方政府就OK了文化部那麼好做"},{"start":6326.411,"end":6353.413,"text":"跟這些售票平台跟這些主辦單位跟地方政府跟警政署都是密切保持聯繫跟溝通的就是沒有嘛你現在還要跟我變這個欸其實我現在告訴你就是地方政府真實的狀況很多個縣市政府我都去問了啦不用在這邊本事太平啦你以為說你在那邊開的教育訓練喔好像長官一樣過去跟他說你要這樣喔你要這樣你要這樣喔他們忽然間就有調查權了嗎現在實際上就是沒有調查權所以資料取得不了你要去幫忙解決這個問題嘛"},{"start":6354.656,"end":6381.624,"text":"的確文化單位因為不是警政執法單位不是司法單位所以在調查權上是沒有不管是文化部或文化局都是沒有調查權所以擺爛嗎?不是,所以我們要透過其他的方式那你透過什麼方式?關鍵就是取得票號跟票券的位置我們可以透過售票平台來取得那請問一下我現在就是講說就是要取得就取得不了我們現在把實務的困難告訴你你一直告訴我說關鍵是要取得你現在就取得不了嗎?就是售票平台你要去解決不好意思文化部你們是要去解決問題"},{"start":6383.064,"end":6403.291,"text":"你要解決問題你不是跟我們民意代表一樣在那邊討論的東西你要去解決問題你要解決問題你有公權力你是文化部好不好你不是一般的民眾只會把問題點出來這個怎樣這個怎樣這個怎樣不是你要去解決問題我現在問你是你有沒有去解決問題有我們會繼續努力"},{"start":6408.097,"end":6408.517,"text":"有一個標案我覺得非常奇怪"},{"start":6429.854,"end":6437.807,"text":"這個112年有一個黃牛檢舉及法律諮詢專案辦公室一年800萬今年呢跟明年1500萬請問一下這個表演是要做什麼內容"},{"start":6440.083,"end":6457.794,"text":"就是現在我們針對黃牛案件的不管是巡查、不管是分案然後案件的分析、樣態的分析還有法律意見的提供的這個功能這需要1500萬喔?分案我剛剛已經講了你的分案只是把人有檢舉人的資料"},{"start":6459.315,"end":6477.344,"text":"或是他有提供FB line的對話你就轉給地方政府了這個需要1500萬去做他還是要逐項檢視我問過地方政府他說通常你們就是這樣分過來了啦沒有我們是逐項檢視逐項檢視需要那麼多錢喔地方政府都沒有另外一邊預算為什麼文化部要另外一邊"},{"start":6479.881,"end":6498.933,"text":"整個分案跟巡查跟基礎資料調查有沒有完備是由文化部這邊來的對但是第一個案件不多第二個處理的事情也不多為什麼要800萬還有1500萬這個非常奇怪那我們再來看一下上一次還是用最有力標為什麼"},{"start":6501.189,"end":6501.289,"text":"有經驗的"},{"start":6516.489,"end":6542.314,"text":"那怎樣有經驗有文化部來決定嘛來我們來看一下上次得標的廠商是誰啊這個叫做常惠律師事務所這個律師事務所呢在說明的地方直接講說因為袁律師大學時代參加謝長廷律師的新文化演習營啊然後啪啪啪講的就是我很少看到這個律師事務所介紹自己跟謝長廷關係那我們來看一下這個得標廠商的主要經歷臺北市法務局長"},{"start":6543.374,"end":6562.084,"text":"然後不當黨產處理委員會的委員所以這樣子一個案子第一個我聽不出來說他需要有1500萬來做他是18個月一年半一年半一年半上一次是一年嘛一年800萬嘛一年800萬嘛上次10個月10個月800萬就次長剛剛講的內容我不知道為什麼要花800萬來做啦真的不知道我打一個大問號請你具體提供這800萬他服務的項目"},{"start":6574.031,"end":6581.117,"text":"2.為什麼最有利標的得標廠商剛好就是跟謝長廷很有關係還是不當當場處理委員會的委員?有兩家投標公開評選這個是公開招標啦已經有兩家投標了目前還在公開那為什麼是最有利標嗎?"},{"start":6600.776,"end":6602.177,"text":"請你會後提供這一個所謂的800萬到底這個廠商做了哪些服務"},{"start":6615.925,"end":6635.329,"text":"因為就我的了解﹖包括電話接聽﹖對,就我的了解﹖這個所謂的800萬的內容﹖分案這些﹖或者是什麼提供法律見解﹖不需要到800萬﹖不需要到800萬﹖然後得標廠商就是跟民進黨這麼好的人﹖這個外界都會提出質疑﹖而且今年你還增加預算﹖直接變成﹖因為時間變﹖對,那為什麼變長了﹖為什麼要拉長﹖那會不會就是同一家得標﹖"},{"start":6640.393,"end":6640.993,"text":"謝謝葉元智委員接下來我們請郭育晴委員"},{"start":6673.703,"end":6677.605,"text":"主席早有請文化部次長好我們請文化部次長委員好市長早安我想大家都提到很多相關跟黃牛有關的一些問題那一般民眾真的想要進到表演的場地去看一下表演或是看一下賽事其實真的也比不過那些用大型的外掛的一個系統在大量掃貨的這樣掃票的一個黃牛"},{"start":6702.956,"end":6715.51,"text":"這個部分其實是在上個禮拜一個寫程式的一個竹科工程師他落網但是他的確在整個所有的調查過程當中其實也點到了目前整個所有的"},{"start":6716.539,"end":6728.971,"text":"受票的一個機制我們出現了一些漏洞跟一些問題其實大部分都是在講的就是在比網速網速跟系統其實沒有辦法透過我們來看一下那個整個所有我們在買票的那個過程包含我們要輸入所謂的驗證碼"},{"start":6732.734,"end":6753.507,"text":"但是這個系統當中其實售票系統當中他能不能夠透過所謂的驗證碼來辨認出這個到底是不是真人但是他又沒有辦法去阻止這個機器人去搶票他覺得非常不公平所以他寫了這樣的一個程式雖然他漠網但是他漠網其實真正違法的一個原因其實是在於他違照文書因為他可能用了很多人的這個個資的問題"},{"start":6755.388,"end":6775.427,"text":"那針對這個部分其實我們的訴發部其實在數位簽章法通過之後除了用身分證被冒用的這個狀況有可能會減少這個的確也是但是是不是能夠在整個所有的售票的系統當中能夠改善所謂的驗證碼是不是真人這樣子的一個問題這個部分你怎麼看"},{"start":6776.533,"end":6785.376,"text":"我想這部分我們可以跟書發部跟警政署來協談看可以怎麼強化這些事情對因為書發部有代表好我想這個問題其實也蠻大的喔因為這的確有我們有政策他們有對策我們書發部怎麼看"},{"start":6801.665,"end":6822.686,"text":"好,就跟委員剛剛提到一樣,我們電子簽章碼成本委員會通過了之後會發布實施因為它是有電子簽章跟數位簽章的所以它已經是有第三方的這個憑證單位發的所以它已經如果要用數位簽章就已經證實它是本人了應該就我們在初步的構想是驗證碼的需要性可能我們就可以來討論了"},{"start":6824.028,"end":6844.545,"text":"那為什麼其實他們的這個網絡上黃牛的猖獗的行為其實還是沒有辦法被強力的遏止我覺得是雖然我們的這個文創法其實在去年我們的6月其實已經開始有做一些調整跟修法的部分這個是利益是良善的啦但是問題是對於黃牛真的拿他們一點皮條都沒有嗎"},{"start":6845.82,"end":6860.63,"text":"我們來看一下我們自己本身在這個第10條之一有講到以不正當的取得票券以及所謂的加價轉售的一個行為加以規範但是其實在另外在我們的明確的規定當中"},{"start":6861.431,"end":6881.711,"text":"只要是超過票面的金額跟定價的販售但我們後來其實看到有很多人說那不對啊我只是為了郵寄所以我超過了那個票面我們定出來的是只要超過票面就應該可以檢舉就覺得是黃牛問題是到真正的真實的狀況其實有的不是黃牛這個部分我們的標準不一啊這個怎麼解決"},{"start":6882.612,"end":6900.24,"text":"這個部分是這樣在加價的部分它的關鍵是它的加價是加在票面價格還是加在票價上還是說是第三方獲得剛剛委員提到的油資、交通費因為販售這個二手票而增加了這個費用它基本上因為是第三方所以不會計入這個票價所以它的確要透過個案來做認定"},{"start":6901.861,"end":6911.086,"text":"我們現在其實在檢舉黃牛的部分其實大部分都是所謂的被動的接到案子檢舉的對不對我們並沒有主動的去出擊為什麼我們來看一下整個所有的檢舉的一個流程包含我的座位區必填包含我選位的位置必填但現在黃牛其實沒有這麼笨喔"},{"start":6924.474,"end":6935.545,"text":"他其實都會叫一般人我把你先把錢匯給我我之後等到你拿到票而且我只告訴你我大概是哪一個我們來看一下這個對話這個對話是真的喔"},{"start":6939.375,"end":6954.879,"text":"除了炸雞以外可是我們真的拿黃牛沒有辦法嗎我們在整個所有的檢舉的流程是這麼的繁複我們怎麼期待他們都成案呢沒有辦法找到本人沒有辦法找到賣票的人所以這是為什麼一定要座位號因為他買票的時候會有一個買票的紀錄嘛所以你要拿到這個座位號或者是流水編號你才有辦法取得買票人的資料這是一個關鍵"},{"start":6963.741,"end":6982.777,"text":"這是關鍵但也是最大的一個問題嘛也就是說我根本不知道買票的人是誰我根本沒有給你一個正確的細節所以我們的成案率才會這麼這麼的低啊我們來看一下文化部以台北市政府為例啦那你看一下整個所有的台北市政府上個月其實"},{"start":6983.638,"end":7008.712,"text":"我們的議員苗博雅他也質詢了這個臺北市政府的一個教育局那個文化局他提到10個月下來開罰率只有1%總共檢舉的案件753件當中只有8件開罰這中間到底出了什麼狀況就是他們基本上他掌握不到整個黃牛的一個資訊那這個部分我們怎麼跨部會來做解決啊"},{"start":7009.933,"end":7023.199,"text":"這個部分的確是受限於這個整體來說要裁罰就是罪行法定所以你一定要取得確實的這個當事人的資料才能夠進行裁罰這也是整個在黃牛如果用數位的方式來進行搶票的話"},{"start":7024.98,"end":7048.2,"text":"尤其是現在其實很多的表演的場合是在我們的主要的六都那麼以台北市、高雄市其實在城岸率其實它就有一個很大明顯的一個落差那當然台北市政府的一個我們說的他說能就是緣額的不夠這個緣額的部分其實是台北市政府他們可以增加"},{"start":7049.841,"end":7073.254,"text":"以台北市政府人力這麼多的一個狀況我不相信員額會分配不了但是我相信文化局其實在跟文化部這邊我們訂立這樣子的一個修法的一個整個所有的關鍵之後是不是沒有一個統一的告訴他們我們的一個統一的準則是什麼讓他們真的沒有方法所以成案率只有1%只有8件開罰"},{"start":7076.075,"end":7095.337,"text":"跟委員報其實在方法上我們大概就是一再的協調跟做說明因為他大概有幾個關鍵比如說你要售票平台要提供買售人的這個資料你要跟警方確認這個個資的真實性要跟電信業者調手機或者甚至是知道他的銀行帳號等等那像這些方法他都是可能調查的方法"},{"start":7096.118,"end":7121.955,"text":"所以這等於就是要跨部會我們要再次的跨部會甚至中央跟地方其實就文化部、文化局其實我們要統一啊那統一的這個平台我們是第一我們在簡化所謂的檢舉的流程當中是不是能夠掌握到所謂的黃牛真實的身份這個部分包含金款會他是用誰的卡是用誰的身份到底是誰去買票誰去掃票我們才能夠掌握到真實的"},{"start":7126.541,"end":7128.755,"text":"那這個部分是不是應該要來解決啊?"},{"start":7131.201,"end":7159.261,"text":"主要是它還是牽涉到法院的依據因為它算是一個比較強力要求人民的權利事項等於是你要求他交出這些個資所以這個部分所以我們才說要用主動來代替被動的檢舉因為我們在檢舉的過程當中那個流程這麼的繁複其實到最後就變成所謂的不成案的成立可是在主動的調查裡面因為也沒有個資因為就算他在社群上刊登但你也沒有辦法取得那刊登者"},{"start":7159.821,"end":7181.638,"text":"有太多的檢舉的案件到最後是用補件不全作為結案的結果所以這也是讓我們覺得這個黃牛沒有辦法完全被檢舉的一個原因好那因為今天時間的關係最後我再用一點點時間我們講到這個文策院其實我們支持這個文創的一個產業的貸款的部分那跟著所謂的這個中央銀行"},{"start":7182.658,"end":7211.357,"text":"在我們3月21日他決定升席辦碼對於很多的文創、戲劇產出的業者來講他們包含如果是300萬、3000萬的一個貸款光升席辦碼每個月就要增加3125元那這個部分其實我們提供的這樣子的一個有人來陳情的這樣一個狀況我們是不是可以建議我們的文化部這個地方是不是可以比照所謂的就學貸款甚至青年創業"},{"start":7212.298,"end":7212.478,"text":"主席"},{"start":7228.258,"end":7228.418,"text":"謝謝委員謝謝主席"},{"start":7250.639,"end":7261.967,"text":"好 謝謝我們的郭玉琴委員接下來我們請吳佩奕委員那本席宣布我們在陳秀寶委員質詢完畢之後我們就休息5分鐘 謝謝好謝謝主席 我請文化部次長好 次長委員好次長好"},{"start":7277.546,"end":7301.362,"text":"台灣的黃牛猖獗黃牛票取締不易這個其實這幾年在台灣大家討論很久了所以也才去年也啟動了立法院跟文化部跟行政院一起努力來完成了文創法的修法那在修法上路之後今天這個專題報告很重要的是我們想要了解自從我們修法上路之後目前"},{"start":7302.603,"end":7325.073,"text":"我國對於黃牛票取締的成效如何有沒有改善遇到哪些困難遇到這些困難我們是還需要透過持續的修法還是在行政層面我們能夠來解決這些問題所以我首先想要請教次長的是在你們的報告裡面我有看到有關於我們黃牛票在六都"},{"start":7326.414,"end":7333.999,"text":"在查辦的情形因為目前我們文化部是有一個檢舉專區那當文化部這裡收到檢舉案件的時候我們是用分案的方式來轉交給地方政府來進行後面的調查嗎對 因為它是演唱會的屬地調查所以如果是在哪個縣市舉辦我們就會分案到哪個縣市"},{"start":7348.067,"end":7357.535,"text":"那我們總共收到的檢舉案件是多少件有2000多件如果是符合就是在我們的範圍裡的是2105件2105件但是你們這個受理案件數顯然不是2000多件因為你們會先進行初步的"},{"start":7368.087,"end":7369.889,"text":"2105件,我們轉發給台北市政府的案件是多少件?"},{"start":7387.914,"end":7412.128,"text":"臺北市就是271件我們收到的臺北市文化局提供的資料是由文化部轉交過來的是753件753件裡面臺北市文化局再去進一步第一步的這個調查之後最後受理的案件數是271件所以我想請教一下從文化部收到檢舉案件到分案到地方政府這整個的流程是怎麼來進行的"},{"start":7414.229,"end":7426.74,"text":"主要是如果是資料不起還是由他們結案所以部分的所以案件算進去以後還是由臺北市政府來做結案所以他們那些所謂要見不起的案件其實還是會有進對所以實際上我們轉交給臺北市的是753件那經過臺北市去調查有些他認為說這個因為資料不起權結案"},{"start":7434.667,"end":7437.49,"text":"有些他認為這個資料沒有辦法再調查結案有些他認為這個其實並沒有不合理的這個加價他也結案所以最後受理的案件數是271件所以請教一下像我們分案給高雄市的我們分案下去是分了幾案"},{"start":7453.075,"end":7467.847,"text":"受理的是152件是但我們分我們從文化部分案下去的是幾案不好意思我讓同仁稍微查一下手邊有沒有數字391件391件嘛好所以我會希望你們再提供完整的這個數字因為我們會想要知道從民眾檢舉案件"},{"start":7471.61,"end":7479.198,"text":"到最後裁罰的案件這個比例是多少因為以台北市來說我們這樣算下來台北市民眾檢舉的753案經過文化部初步的這個調查之後翻給台北市文化局調查最後裁罰的是8件也就是不到1%所以我要了解各個縣市"},{"start":7491.03,"end":7492.331,"text":"在高雄的部分因為整個處理的程序比較"},{"start":7519.892,"end":7522.554,"text":"這個我知道說有些縣市例如高雄市他是有成立這個打牛的專案小組"},{"start":7537.766,"end":7557.891,"text":"對 他們會有專案的方式來做執行文化主管機關跟這個警察機關一起共組一個專案小組那其他縣市不一定有這樣子的專案小組所以呢我是建議我們文化部因為實際上法規上路之後我們的執行層面在地方政府"},{"start":7558.431,"end":7581.032,"text":"那文化部我們是主管機關則無旁貸我們應該要來協助地方政府各縣市之間有一些做法可以來進行交流例如大家一直在講的這個只是加價轉售警察局可不可以來查依照我們文創法的修法當然可以都洽詢警察機關來協助嘛像我看這個我們高雄的左營分局"},{"start":7582.393,"end":7589.498,"text":"演唱會現場都到現場去查有沒有現場黃牛在現場兜售這個不是刑罰喔有沒有加價轉售也在現場查當然可以查嘛我們法規給你們這樣法律的工具行政層面看你們如何去運用那今天是不是這個警政署也有來現場我請警政署"},{"start":7609.184,"end":7610.605,"text":"目前本署除了依據這個"},{"start":7627.473,"end":7643.888,"text":"裝法相關規定之外特別是第10條之一的第三項刑事法部分會進行調查那另外在行政法令的部分我們本與行政協助的部分如果文化機關有提出要求要我們派員到現場來協助我們的派員"},{"start":7645.666,"end":7659.836,"text":"那文化機關向你們提出要求要來查我們剛講的就是說這個買票人的身份是不是本人身份進一步的查核他可能涉及到要去對他的購票時候的匯款記錄相關的資料可能需要跟銀行來調資料這部分警察局過去有沒有協助的經驗"},{"start":7668.052,"end":7677.508,"text":"有關個人資料的提供會有相關法令的規定那如果是行政法令的部分我們在行政執行法的寫入上"},{"start":7682.194,"end":7706.846,"text":"就文創法上路之後依你的了解地方政府文化局收到檢舉案件初步去查了之後發現有這個買票人確實有這樣的記錄但是進一步要去來調他後面的匯款記錄信用卡記錄等等的請求地方警察局來協助的時候有沒有協助過的案件"},{"start":7707.526,"end":7736.432,"text":"基本上文創法裡面只有第10條之一第3項是屬於刑事法那按照刑事數碼及各執法的相關規定在這個這位是我們警政階來我今天不是在跟你討論法是我是討論執行層面是因為我們今天討論專案報告就是要了解你們執行成效你有沒有去了解過各地縣市政府的警察局就文創法上路之後文化局請求他們協助有沒有協助過的案件有沒有"},{"start":7737.032,"end":7757.81,"text":"協助的案件其實是有有嘛 對不對對有那代表可不可以可以啊臺北市政府的情況就是這個樣子是文化局收到這個檢舉案件去查這個黃牛這個購票人身份證資料、姓名都有了但是因為當事人說那不是我本人我是被冒名的"},{"start":7758.47,"end":7780.137,"text":"但是究竟是不是冒名不是當事人說的算嗎對吧我們執法機關要進一步去調查資料嘛文化局請求台北市警察局來幫忙查資料跟銀行調資料有沒有協助有喔但是呢現在的問題是什麼有些案件警察局協助有些案件警察局不協助究竟是哪些案件要協助哪些案件不協助"},{"start":7781.499,"end":7793.185,"text":"我希望我們文化部跟我們的警政署要去了解地方政府現在在實務層面整個黃牛查緝取締的流程要有一致性"},{"start":7797.352,"end":7821.831,"text":"我們現在已經有法了過去因為我們法源不夠完備所以很多地方我們在模糊地帶我們現在已經有讓你們去查緝黃牛票的法有法源依據所以我不希望是一個市政府裡面有兩套標準我更不希望看見我們也不能允許是一個台灣有兩套標準有些地方政府可以查有些地方政府不能查這叫什麼法"},{"start":7824.173,"end":7841.076,"text":"我們這樣沒有辦法跟民眾交代所以請文化部跟警政署就我們目前各縣市地方政府查緝黃牛票的執行狀況去進一步具體的去了解建立一個一套的標準可不可以做到好的好 謝謝謝謝委員好好 謝謝吳委員接下來我們請陳秀寶委員"},{"start":7854.478,"end":7856.802,"text":"陳秀寶委員質詢完畢之後,我們就休息5分鐘。"},{"start":7867.659,"end":7886.844,"text":"市長早其實打擊黃牛票不管是公部門還是大家民眾這是大家的共識那我們教育委員會的委員包括本席也都有提文創法的修法的版本在去年的5月三讀通過那到現在將近一年也是剛好在這個時候來檢視這段時間的成效"},{"start":7889.665,"end":7904.256,"text":"那根據文化部這邊提供的資料來看到4月15日截止對於不正方式取得票券的部分呢131件然後加價轉售的案件檢舉案件有2105件在刑事要件齊備的件數609件裡面有300件是已經調查完畢309件在調查中"},{"start":7913.123,"end":7930.972,"text":"但是呢在300件的這個調查完畢的這個案件裡面只有裁罰30件比例只有10%喔次長這個比例這個差異可以說明一下你看這樣的比例民眾會不會覺得說根本就是雷聲大雨點小公部門就是說也並不是真的很積極的在處理應該不是應該是說"},{"start":7934.974,"end":7959.503,"text":"因為檢舉進來的案件很多他可能沒有真的發生交易就是說他有這樣的行為但是他並沒有真的發生交易所以他的查查可能到後來沒有辦法有採取的對象等等那或者是有其他在調查裡面發現他其實不見得是真的加價譬如說他是小額的然後他是代購的行為或者是他是必要的費用等等我想會有很多的樣態導致他最後真正能夠裁罰的件數比較低"},{"start":7961.924,"end":7975.056,"text":"這個部分其實本席並不是重點說在於說要裁法的件數要多好像在拼績效一樣但是這個部分就是一個態度對我們對於恰器黃牛票的這個態度接下來這邊我再請一下一下次長臉書上很多社團是說讓票換票的這樣的社團那本席上去看了一下這些社團很多天文都還宣稱是保證有票"},{"start":7988.527,"end":7998.475,"text":"所以很多網友去留言是很不滿啊其中也是有討論說為什麼保證有票你們是怎麼做到保證有票那或者說這個是不是應該要符合有錢可以來檢舉這樣的言論那文化部你們覺得說保證有票這個有沒有黃牛票的疑慮"},{"start":8005.592,"end":8009.213,"text":"市長當然就是說我們覺得他有這樣的嫌疑但他查他成不成立或說如何查怎麼查這個部分還是有一些技術上的問題喔"},{"start":8029.337,"end":8047.891,"text":"那財閥比例只有10%這個造成民眾的疑慮我剛剛有強調過其實我沒有硬性規定說我們一定要提高這個財閥的這個件數我是尊重說文化部這邊以及地方縣市政府的財量的權限但是保證有票這樣的言論呢我也覺得說文化部應該有你們的立場"},{"start":8048.592,"end":8049.552,"text":"代購費用的部分是這樣因為代購費"},{"start":8066.789,"end":8095.301,"text":"的前提是他是一個約定行為嘛就是我跟你約好你幫我買所以第一個他可能要事前發生才叫做代購所以並不能是事後的那個就叫做販售了那基於在販售的這個部分如果他販售的加價的金額是說他是必要金額必要金額的指的意思就是說譬如他是由第三方收受的比如說他的郵寄費用他的交通費用因為要交付嘛這個費用我們會被認為說他是一個合理的費用範圍但超出這個費用基本上都是算加價的"},{"start":8096.281,"end":8099.645,"text":"市長沒關係這個部分我可以再跟你們來討論說對這個的認定或者說在這個地方我們怎麼去讓民眾不再去懷疑我們文化部是不是真的有打擊黃牛票的決心那在我們在文創法修法過後呢即便說你們今天在你們報告裡面而且你在答詢中都覺得說黃牛票的這個情況是有改善的"},{"start":8118.004,"end":8118.804,"text":"韓國是統一票價搭配"},{"start":8147.176,"end":8148.777,"text":"請教次長,您覺得我們目前業界所採取的主流售票機制有沒有可能變更成日本的抽籤制?"},{"start":8166.963,"end":8171.646,"text":"跟委員說我們很羨慕啦就是我們覺得如果售票平台跟主辦單位願意採取這些方式其實才會根本的解決黃牛問題所以其實您也是支持的如果說我們技術上是可以的話對就是說現在的台灣的問題就是說現在目前其實沒有強制性的法源所以我們都只能用勸導的然後用輔導的跟他們洽談的但是他們要不要採取因為他採取各種的方式他會增加不同的成本"},{"start":8194.679,"end":8202.086,"text":"您在這邊為什麼會提到說我們要改變我們主流售票的機制也是因為有新聞上就是這個祖科工程師他自己開發的這個軟體就是讓民眾可以跟他所謂的讓民眾跟黃牛站在同一個跑艇一起來搶票用魔法對抗魔法這樣的說法"},{"start":8213.095,"end":8221.603,"text":"那他也說到他認為說．票業者應該採實名制加抽票制．這樣才能真正的杜絕黃牛那在這邊本席並不認同他所謂的什麼以魔法對抗魔法這樣的論點但是他的核心問題我覺得他提到他也看法也覺得實名制加抽票制才能真正的杜絕黃牛這樣的說法是我們應該要去思考跟做改變的那這邊再一次請教文化部"},{"start":8239.699,"end":8241.98,"text":"如果說我們支持這個臺灣主流的這個售票模式可以真的朝著實名制跟抽票制這個制度來走的話我們有怎樣的規劃可以來輔導或者說來跟業者討論"},{"start":8255.945,"end":8275.468,"text":"如果要做這個真的要改成實名自家抽籤這一類的新的制度的話它主要如果是強制的話它還是需要一個法源不然我們就只能用現在的方式就是說跟售票平台溝通跟主辦單位溝通但是最後要不要採取仍然是取決於主辦單位這是目前的一個困境"},{"start":8276.188,"end":8302.722,"text":"這個部分我也希望說你們可以努力的去跟業者這邊來做協調做溝通因為如果說真的要讓我們的民眾有一個比較公平的機會來參與這樣的演出黃牛票的存在真的是會讓大家覺得說是不是公務部門你們這邊執法不力你們就是對這個部分沒有重視那在這邊我也要因為訴報部你不用回答我但是我請我這邊要要求如果說現行的售票業者"},{"start":8303.462,"end":8313.275,"text":"他們因為他們的系統很容易被這樣的城市入侵的話表示說他們的治安的這個系統呢就是不夠強固所以這邊我也希望說我們說法部這邊可以協助這些售票業者來強化他們的整個的安全的防範"},{"start":8320.444,"end":8325.108,"text":"那在這邊我要求文化部就是說針對我們業者的售票系統的強化以及售票模式的轉變這部分希望文化部、體育署、數發部你們這邊應該跨部會的合作然後跟業者來協調能夠有共識希望共同來推進我國售票模式的轉變以及強化我們的售票系統"},{"start":8341.86,"end":8360.37,"text":"那所以我要要求我希望說文化部、體育署跟抒發部呢可以提供給本席關於剛才的這個建議可行性空間的這個書面說明喔我們也要展現我們打擊黃牛票的決心好嗎好的謝謝主席再給我一點點時間我請一下那個體育署長署長"},{"start":8368.102,"end":8376.153,"text":"4月25日的新聞關於全中運有游泳選手他在熱身的時候不慎跳水那直接被禁賽是嗎?"},{"start":8378.188,"end":8387.716,"text":"報告委員這部分他是在現場被取消資格但是他的競賽這部分是程序不完備所以我們沒有不會把他競賽所以那一場的比賽資格他被取消但是事後以後參加的比賽並沒有被禁沒有那當時教練也反說說這台灣獨創一般國外並沒有規定說一定要坐之下水是嗎國外有這樣的規定嗎"},{"start":8402.999,"end":8418.733,"text":"報告委員國際的規則是講不能在那個場域去做跳水的動作但是要求要以腳先入水的方式進行那協會這邊他把它擴大解釋成就是任何形式的跳水都把它算是取消資格"},{"start":8419.053,"end":8441.696,"text":"我們看一下比賽應該遵守的事項他是說全面禁止任何形式的跳水那為什麼這樣規定是因為說避免發生肢體碰撞有意外跟危險那依照競賽規程第36條來辦理那我們看一下你們的競賽規程第36條寫得非常一視同仁甚至沒有針對違規的情節重大於大小來做不同處分這個"},{"start":8442.517,"end":8446.118,"text":"這次的處分不可逆本席這邊要問的就是說其實每一位運動選手他可以去參加比賽他就是已經經過了無數的刻苦的練習訓練之後才有取得這個資格如果說我們動不動的就是這樣子就是競賽那其實他的運動生涯可能有就這樣子就終止了"},{"start":8467.825,"end":8482.771,"text":"所以真的本案這邊本席要求體育署我們應該前面的檢視競賽規則規程章程應該做出適當的比例調整跟處分的標準我不去探討說今天它違規的這個本身但是請解"},{"start":8484.271,"end":8486.152,"text":"好 謝謝署長 謝謝委員好 謝謝 那我們現在就先休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":8517.608,"end":8517.768,"text":"主席"},{"start":8820.245,"end":8821.206,"text":"林依菁委員王次長、鄭署長"},{"start":8839.708,"end":8841.209,"text":"去年我們陸續修了文創法跟那個運產條例那所以今天特別來跟討論一下就是說去年修這個文創法跟運產條例的時候通過修法時我記得有幾個附帶決議"},{"start":8858.804,"end":8882.688,"text":"其中一項負債決就是說如果賣方以原價轉售收取手續費或者是寄送費在合理範圍內是不構成加價轉售的那想請問說所謂的合理範圍是否已經明定了這個價格範圍跟所謂的判斷的指引有沒有提供相關的這個資料給相關的單位做參考"},{"start":8883.248,"end":8909.521,"text":"跟委員回覆就價格的本身我們沒有訂定一個固定的一個%數或者是價格主要的原因是因為說在修法時間的期間裡面當時是說我們一開始提案是10%視為合理定價但後來這一點受到很大的反對就認為說那就等於承認黃牛有10%的空間所以把這個%數就拿移除那我們現在的判斷基準就是說這些所謂的合理費用指的就是你是因為要販售這個票券"},{"start":8910.902,"end":8911.883,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":8937.583,"end":8956.063,"text":"喔好那想請教就是說剛剛柯貞昭委有提到就是檢舉黃牛專區的問題喔真的說真的基本的網頁喔我們民眾基本上一定會從Google去搜尋那如果你Google搜尋檢舉黃牛專區喔出現的一定是文化部"},{"start":8956.523,"end":8967.488,"text":"新設立的藝文票券黃牛票的檢舉專區做得很完整我覺得民眾一看就是一目了然點哪裡就可以查詢什麼可是我們反過來看運動票券的檢舉專區搜尋結果就不是第一個"},{"start":8975.351,"end":8994.084,"text":"還往下滑在間接滑到從動資券相關的網頁裏面再去找到檢舉專區而且這個網路的用戶這個體驗都不是那麼好那雖然有檢舉跟這個查詢的進度的按鈕可是真的沒有義文票券那樣的清楚明瞭所以"},{"start":8996.806,"end":9011.703,"text":"剛剛柯昭偉也有指點你那我是想具體請教您說要優化那你優化跟改善的這個進程何時包委員我想這個部分應該在6月底之前應該可以完全改善了"},{"start":9012.532,"end":9036.246,"text":"6月底前好那就期待6月底前有跟文化部一樣的這個明瞭易懂的這個頁面進去好那本席認為就是說打擊黃牛我們應該要跨部會來共同執行剛剛柯昭偉也有提到說其實我們既然藝文票券跟運動票券都有檢舉的專區那我們是不是可以進步思考把兩個統合在一起"},{"start":9037.086,"end":9061.316,"text":"那我覺得當然在所謂的這個行政院會的時候其實你們都是可以拿出來提因為我知道這不是非文化部或非這個教育部可以來處理可是如果有一個統一的檢舉專區的網頁點進去再依照說是藝文票券還是運動票券那這樣子的話我覺得對民眾要搜尋要檢舉真的會比較容易對不對跟委員說明主要是因為我們兩個部會所"},{"start":9065.58,"end":9091.775,"text":"針對的票券的形式不同法源依據也不同所以整合在一個專區恐怕會有一些混亂跟質疑就是說那它運動票券為什麼不是用藝文票券的標準或者藝文票券為什麼會不用運動票券標準我覺得是恐怕在民眾的適用上會有一些疑慮但是我覺得可以做的事情比較是其實現在委員們也都在談就是說這個部分可不可以有一個整合性的專法型的規範來規範黃牛"},{"start":9093.416,"end":9116.884,"text":"其實黃牛除了藝文跟運動就是說不要分別放在兩個法裡面因為現在以這樣的方式來說遲早都會出現部會在審查尤其執行單位都是在地方政府會出現那個執法跟判準上的落差那這個也是我們現在最警覺在防範的但是我覺得就根本之道來說也許我們更可願意支持一個專法的誕生的這些做一個總和"},{"start":9119.125,"end":9119.886,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9149.705,"end":9152.066,"text":"那時候就是開放1.3萬張票來索取可是那時候就有很多被搶空然後黃牛拿來轉賣炒到一張四五千塊那時候媒體爆得很大那像大巨蛋這樣的測試賽這麼龐大的零元票券"},{"start":9168.494,"end":9194.171,"text":"當然我覺得這是千年一遇的狀況不長可是我覺得我們也要有制定一定的法規來不容黃牛從中來干預所以我們如果來看到現在的包括我們文化賽事也一樣文化票券也一樣當然文化票券我有請教文化部文化部是說零元票券狀況你們比較"},{"start":9196.656,"end":9197.016,"text":"以文創法10支1條來進行裁罰"},{"start":9225.905,"end":9251.794,"text":"是那第二種狀況就是整場不收費就是剛向委員提到像大巨蛋那種情況那因為當時立法的時候他維護的法益是市場交易公平性是藝文票券市場交易公平性作為文創法11條修法的法益基礎所以那時候就沒有把所謂的零元放進來那現在如果在藝文裡面有零元的狀況我們可以來做個案的討論那再來討論說是不是有需要修法來做做跟上因為目前來說藝文的這個"},{"start":9254.415,"end":9282.332,"text":"表演活動的演出比較少用零元的方式啦然後我們主要保護的其實也是這個這些議員票券交易的這個市場秩序所以差異是在這裡是啦我覺得因為當初我們就是我們有用所謂的這個因為我們零元票券通常是公關票嘛所以那時候我們沒有想到說類似像這種大巨蛋測試賽這樣可是我的意思是說沒有規範到齁"},{"start":9283.473,"end":9311.111,"text":"那我們那時候好像是那是改採行政措施去處理嗎對 因為他就會被取消資格就是我查到他也可以檢舉檢舉他就會取消他的入場資格啦對對對對這一些方式用行政方法去做可是這樣子的話我們就會反下來看這樣好像懲罰消費者而不是懲罰賣的人你懂我意思嗎就是說我拿到這張票然後我要進場我被取消因為我是消費端因為我還是要跟大家說最好就是不要買黃牛票"},{"start":9313.976,"end":9320.081,"text":"當然您說要弄個專法我贊成可是在專法還沒有出來之前是不是要還是要對於在文創法裡面對於零元票券的情形是不是要有一些防範跟作為我們來看"},{"start":9341.417,"end":9342.037,"text":"接下來我們請范雲委員"},{"start":9375.47,"end":9378.071,"text":"次長,針對黃牛票的部分,我有想要追問的。我想去年我們修法之後,其實黃牛房制已經有很大的進步,現在我們討論的都是進入實際執行後的問題。"},{"start":9399.581,"end":9423.684,"text":"剛剛已經有委員問過那目前就是這是你們的黃牛檢舉專區可以看到檢舉要求的資訊非常的仔細包含這個入場序號跟票券編號流水號那我認為這個因為他要求到入場序號跟票券編號的這個流水號那這其實會讓就是檢舉人如果沒有實質買到票"},{"start":9425.205,"end":9453.26,"text":"他其實就會缺乏資訊那我們看一下就是你們提供的資料行事要件不齊備的案件就超過一千件總共有1640件那就有超過一千件那我回來看一下我們當初的修法的就是我們原本的這個第十之一條第二款對定的是教藝文表演票券已超過票面金額或定價販售者按票券章數懲罰碼"},{"start":9455.121,"end":9467.027,"text":"販售者就只要販售這個行為就完成了犯罪行為並不需要到購買可是我們現在要求的檢舉要件我發現是你們自己的行政規範檢舉案件處理及獎勵辦法的第三項要求檢舉人必須要具備座位號碼、入場序號、票券編號等"},{"start":9478.872,"end":9505.811,"text":"所以好像有點是自己把這個檢舉的要件訂的太嚴格不知道次長是不是同意我這個分析根文報告為什麼一定要有票券的號碼或流水號的關鍵是要取得購票者的資料因為如果沒有這個號碼的話我們就不會知道是誰購買了這張票所以它其實有確認票券的意思那如果我們不知道是誰購買了這張票那個掃票型的黃牛就沒有辦法從這裡來獲得"},{"start":9507.372,"end":9507.632,"text":"．4月29日及5月2日"},{"start":9526.235,"end":9555.254,"text":"市長 我知道你的用意是要這個購買的事實成立之後那才能夠有明確的這個販售的資料那可是我覺得這裡有個矛盾我們叫人檢舉黃牛可是檢舉人必須實質上買了黃牛票等於參與這個犯罪行為他才能檢舉那可是回頭看我們當時在這個立法院討論的時候我們的文字上就只有販售然後張數"},{"start":9556.475,"end":9574.737,"text":"所以我們並沒有說要購買行為完成那這部分我不知道次長的這個法律的解讀是因為操作面你們需要這樣才能處理還是操作面我們可以跟速發部或是NCC再來合作那這部分是不是可以去研議一下好嗎就我們不用這麼快有定案"},{"start":9575.257,"end":9592.844,"text":"就是了解這個部分好嗎?可以可以那謝謝次長那我想這個部分就因為就是那另一個部分剛剛其實有委員問過了金管會就是也說會跟你們跨部會處理嗎?那我這邊是不是那我請金管會的代表今天有嗎?詢問一下謝謝"},{"start":9601.909,"end":9615.086,"text":"今天提供的報告說可以依照稅捐基徵法第30條、涉救法第幾條可不可以講一下依照稅捐基徵法第30條跟涉救法是什麼意思"},{"start":9616.418,"end":9632.731,"text":"因為現在銀行法規定是說要調查銀行的金融資料的話必須以法律明文規定對我們舉的例子只是說這兩個是現在行政機關有在調查的法律的規定給文化部參考"},{"start":9633.571,"end":9656.725,"text":"其實我們就已經有修法規定了我覺得金管會好像消極了一些那這一次的你們提供的報告既然就可以比照稅捐激增法第30條還有這個受救法這部分是不是能夠更積極配合處理一下好嗎?就是因為我們其實實質上修過了這就是犯受這個就是一個犯罪行為而且有法律的條文在"},{"start":9657.205,"end":9681.3,"text":"目前的法律是還不夠到這個調查資料的位階目前的法律還不夠那如果法律還不夠那你們協調就可以處理不是協調我們是依法行政一定是按照法律對呀那就是我們的法律夠了你才有可能協調嘛所以不是法律不夠的問題是金管會太消極好嗎那因為你剛剛也沒有跟我說出到底是這個稅捐積增法跟涉救法第幾個詳細內容那顯然你還不夠熟悉那請那個金管會積極點因為還有問題要問請回謝謝"},{"start":9687.723,"end":9708.875,"text":"次長,剛剛也有委員有問過了就是現在至少根據苗博雅議員的公開質詢高雄跟台北市就是實質上開罰率差異很大那所以是不是次長針對開罰率差異這麼的大執行面也給我們委員會一個報告就是說如何改善好嗎?好"},{"start":9710.256,"end":9731.73,"text":"好,那我想這個部分就是檢舉的門檻那最後我還想就是如何落實我們通過的黃牛條款這部分需要中央跟地方合作那另外呢民間團體還反映一件事就是免費的票券運產條例跟文創條例我們在修的時候條文文字的確不一樣那可是我清楚記得當時部長史哲有回答我們"},{"start":9734.332,"end":9735.313,"text":"最後一件事呢實名制我也"},{"start":9762.967,"end":9792.388,"text":"肯定文化部有依照當時大家的期待有補助要點而且在施行當中那現在有個相關的問題就是實名制的集聚式退票方案看起來就是還是有改善的空間上次我們因為臺灣的確發生這個事就是有相關的事件然後中國樂團萬能青年旅店來臺灣其實就是使用這個比較適合實名制的集聚式退票方案"},{"start":9792.828,"end":9813.463,"text":"可是我們看了一下退票的內容發現臺灣的規定還是相當的嚴格就是多少天以前然後當天的話幾乎拿不到錢等等那很多民團不是很多民團民團反應這樣子對消費者權益沒有辦法保障那後來我們了解如果參考韓國公平交易委員會的消費者糾紛解決標的的話"},{"start":9816.545,"end":9834.634,"text":"他們對退費天數的標準相對寬鬆扣款%也比較嚴格有給消費者更多的保障甚至在演出前10天還有全額退費的選項我想這是韓國的公平交易委員會制定出來的解決標準"},{"start":9836.115,"end":9858.605,"text":"登記在你們是在藝文表演卷定型化契約裏面有不得記載事項中有明確的規定是不是可以請次長也參考一下韓國的方案能不能研議精進急劇式退票的方案更保護消費者的權益一些呢跟委員報告主要是這我們可以來研議不過主要是因為在這個"},{"start":9859.745,"end":9878.801,"text":"退票的方案的4個方案裡面的選擇權是由主辦單位來做決定那第二件事就是說在選擇退票方案的時候他還是有消費者跟這個業者之間的橫評問題因為雙方保障一方另外一方勢必有損失所以大概是要在這兩者之間取得一定的橫評"},{"start":9879.522,"end":9879.802,"text":"張雅琳委員"},{"start":9907.677,"end":9908.301,"text":"主席好 我們有請次長次長"},{"start":9917.327,"end":9940.233,"text":"主要也是想要來延續就是說前面已經其實有委員也是有提到這個代詢就是說這黃牛票我們現在在講黃牛的定義是說超過面額或是定價販售等等等等好了可是我們現在其實在網路上面其實非常可以找到這種代詢代購代刷代買從後端加價的方式來避免掉就是說前端增加這個票面金額的問題然後"},{"start":9942.133,"end":9967.717,"text":"同時說因為他今天是袋買袋尋所以他一定就會有非常動力非常強的動力一定要去買到票所以就會可能還是會用城市去掃票那我想問一下就是說我們現在針對這樣的情形有沒有一些因應呢第一個就是我們並不認為這樣的方法是代購因為代購就是假代購就是說你說你是代購但事實上你其實是事後約定並不是事前就約定"},{"start":9968.397,"end":9996.84,"text":"第2個就是說即使是這樣他只要用不正程式他仍然觸犯的是刑罰所以在這兩件事上我們都要一直在倡導說這樣子不叫做代購大家不要以為這樣子就可以規避這個法律好那我想問一下就是說因為我覺得現在我們在這些像去年的所有的文創法裡面其實也有講到就是說我們是可以檢舉它嘛可是問題是說我們必須要去提供第4點裡面必須要去提供所謂的這個LOG歷程記錄可是一般來說民眾"},{"start":9997.861,"end":9997.961,"text":"主席"},{"start":10027.881,"end":10028.382,"text":"其實是可以的,我們會如果"},{"start":10044.527,"end":10071.067,"text":"檢舉其他的資料都有比如說你也有票券號碼這些你只是沒有Log的記錄我們會去向購票平台索取OK好那我想這一點我們真的還要加強做跟民眾做說明因為像我自己本身就是一個資深的追星族但是我其實坦白說我常常看到這些東西那我少買不到票可是我卻不知道到底該怎麼處置所以我想自我相信有非常多的這個粉絲啊跟民朋友們其實都不知道這個問題都不知道可以這樣子就可以做一個檢舉那再來就是說"},{"start":10072.395,"end":10096.51,"text":"因為其實現在最近有一個新聞就是說我們要開放這個兩岸的觀光那有很多的中國歌迷都希望可以來台灣追星那其實在現在沒有法規去防止境外掃票的城市境外掃票這樣的行為之下我國歌迷的這個權益可能就會受到影響那我不曉得說我們是否可以再加強這個實名制的部分"},{"start":10096.79,"end":10116.008,"text":"例如說有多大的場館就可以來做實名制因為剛剛其實前面有非常多的委員都有提到就是日韓的這些基礎上面就是前端就有一些機制可能是抽票也好然後入場的時候還有個實名制我們是不是可以用這樣子的方法來加強來保障我們的歌迷的這個權益呢?"},{"start":10116.929,"end":10141.842,"text":"各位報告這一點我們非常願意來做研議因為的確黃牛這個法規能夠處理的範圍可能目前來看會有限只要牽涉到境外的部分我們幾乎是沒有辦法來做處理所以如果有這樣的疑慮的話我們來研議看可以進一步可以怎麼強化實名制對那我想了解那大概研議大概多久會有一個結果呢我們可以一個月後一個月內給"},{"start":10143.396,"end":10147.124,"text":"委員我們研議的一個初步的報告好謝謝謝謝次長那再來就是說"},{"start":10151.557,"end":10179.126,"text":"因為其實我們現在因為像我也知道有一些韓星他們來台灣辦一些見面會他們基本上就是會有一些大型的主辦單位來做可是他們一直都沒有做這個實名制那我想了解我們現在有沒有一些更積極的方法可以來鼓勵他們因為其實如果我們只有申請補貼其實他們如果跟這個掃票的平台來合作的時候黃牛來合作的時候其實呢他賺的錢比我們申請的補助還要多所以對他來說他根本覺得他不需要做這件事情"},{"start":10181.527,"end":10196.728,"text":"我們現在能做的的確是跟這些售票平台或者是主辦單位來做協商那也非常謝謝其實很多的平台都願意來做配合因為現在的實名制是沒有強制法律的基礎所以現在以13年來說可以看到這些比較重大的"},{"start":10196.988,"end":10197.008,"text":"市長﹗"},{"start":10227.148,"end":10252.51,"text":"因為其實我自己也知道就是因為我真的這個見面會某幾家是真的非常大家所以我想因為我現在看到的都是演唱會啦所以我想沒關係這一題的話我們是不是可以會後再來詳細的討論我們如何的因為他們真的是幾乎壟斷了所有韓星來台灣見面會的這個市場所以我想這個還是有需要做一些更積極的來合作啦因為畢竟我也就受害者我就是沒有搶到票這樣子"},{"start":10253.291,"end":10257.135,"text":"好,那在下一個題目我們來請,謝謝次長,那我們請署長喔請署長,謝謝那署長,就是說我想我們運動是需要明星的這一些選手來帶動我們的整個產業、市場這句話,我們署長認同嗎?認同"},{"start":10274.293,"end":10287.687,"text":"所以這個就是NCCA愛荷華大賽的女藍明星她叫克拉克她得分創下了NCAA女藍的歷史新高她在打破紀錄的那一場她的票價增長了25倍從原本的195塊美金整個大飆漲她也打破了高選54年的得分紀錄"},{"start":10296.135,"end":10296.235,"text":"一張一萬八"},{"start":10322.668,"end":10323.789,"text":"報告委員目前還沒有收到都是透過文化部的檢舉專區轉過來網頁我們的確需要優化"},{"start":10342.912,"end":10359.082,"text":"對齁這個部分要持續的優化那運動需要明星齁我們剛剛前面已經講了所以像現在其實這個女排的這個廖宇任啊還有這個男排的張玉生啊還有這個中信兄弟的游擊手江昆宇都非常的帶動了整個大家的關注選手很重要這是署長認同的"},{"start":10360.303,"end":10376.194,"text":"但是國內卻是一言不合就近賽扼殺了選手的未來剛剛其實其他委員也有提到這個游泳的部分剛剛署長已經做了說明那我想要再講這個不合理的規則並不是只有這一場比賽其實它一直不停的在出現"},{"start":10377.014,"end":10401.033,"text":"例如像是我們去年底的這個有一個讀花蓮自強國中的甲組的選手他轉學到吳介淑國中加入了乙組的籃球賽他也被禁賽了一年他只是甲組轉乙組那他也只是個國中生那這樣禁賽規則其實非常不合理的因為我們過去有這樣子的規則是因為我們防止他惡意挖角可是這個現實根本不存在但是他也被禁賽了一年再來我們"},{"start":10403.272,"end":10424.794,"text":"再來就是說我們其實這些選手們非常需要成績才能夠升學他總共國高中這樣子尤其是高中才三年就競賽一年他到底要如何取得成績他到底要如何提升他自己的技藝這一點其實我想署長是不是有去了解"},{"start":10425.094,"end":10425.714,"text":"5月29日及5月29日二天一次會"},{"start":10456.055,"end":10462.942,"text":"對於所有的不合理的競賽規則我們是否有全面檢視這個競賽規定呢?"},{"start":10464.912,"end":10490.312,"text":"報告委員 針對籃球的部分我們在公共體總召開相關的檢討會議之後邀請全國參賽的一些教練、學校代表來那初步的回應大概是役組的部分我們應該會在下一個學年度會開放但是在甲組的部分所有幾乎大部分的教練還是希望能夠維持未滿一年注冊未滿一年的不能不得參賽這個規定主要也是因為在偏鄉跟東部的確這個部分實施之後"},{"start":10490.752,"end":10498.052,"text":"他的整個挖角的情況大大大幅度的降低所以還是有他的必要性但是遺囑的部分我們打算開放因為大家大概是覺得OK的"},{"start":10499.025,"end":10522.963,"text":"那在親主聯賽部分這部分我會回去徹底的調查那這部分我想牽涉到很多的協會這部分我體育署這邊會來全面的清查我希望署長要全面的檢視各項協會的一些競賽規則那尤其就是說剛剛雖然有說家族是有維持這個規定但是我想署長也非常清楚有時候其實學校有一些不合時宜的體罰是因為會導致學生因為我怕我今天"},{"start":10523.203,"end":10523.323,"text":"有請王次長"},{"start":10553.018,"end":10580.111,"text":"委員好市長好我覺得我每次來質詢我不是來質詢你們我是來幫助你們所以希望你們能夠聽下去以前我在商界做諮詢顧問收費是很高的我說免費諮詢提供的建議的確是我也很用心所以希望我們行政部門能夠聽進去"},{"start":10582.432,"end":10586.154,"text":"現在是不是出版業之東呢?職本的出版書店的確面臨很大的考驗因為閱讀習慣的改變有什麼拯救之道?"},{"start":10597.591,"end":10624.848,"text":"我們目前大概就是一方面是結合這個圖書館的採購跟電子閱讀的這個服務來提升閱讀習慣另外就是獨立書店其實鼓勵大家養成閱讀習慣我想是一個重要的請求那個就是讀者嘛讀者大量減少嘛主要原因出在這裡嘛根本沒有那些那些大家被線上的這些影音所吸引"},{"start":10625.988,"end":10651.82,"text":"市長 我問你 你覺得我們的文化水準是越來越高還是越來越低就台灣自己的文化內容來說肯定是發展的越來越好的所以這個有本土文化越來越好不是本土文化是以台灣整體為基礎台灣整體包括台灣自己的也包括跟國際交流的那你覺得哪一個世代的文化水準比較高"},{"start":10653.013,"end":10680.284,"text":"每個世代都有自己的文化的喜好跟自己的發展的沒有這個基本上這樣子都找不到答案你知道我在做諮詢顧問的時候我都對大企業老闆那大企業的董事長就基本上要先接受問題要接受問題不然像這樣子回答永遠是鬼打牆因為所有的事情都有原因都無法解決"},{"start":10682.284,"end":10708.721,"text":"好 這個次長我也希望因為那個幾次的詢問我覺得你都很會回答那回答到讓我們就是好像會有一點就是反正你也都在做事我剛才講我是要幫助幫助你們的那我並沒有包括很多事情我知道大家都很專業而且很辛苦但是我們希望把事情做得更好我這裡也跟次長講一點"},{"start":10710.522,"end":10729.587,"text":"這一個上個禮拜五那個壯世代政治及產業發展促進會在立法院成立了你知道嗎你知道這事情知道恭喜委員對那我要講這一個主要的目的是這個有63個立委加入成為會員3個黨的黨鞭都成為副會長"},{"start":10733.388,"end":10759.597,"text":"我們文化部也有出席那意思就是說壯世代就是國會的重要議題了所以呢當我在講這個時候呢就是希望文化部能夠正式因為所有的部會都在歧視高齡者問他們原因呢後來都說不是他搞的是上面後來一直追究原因問題都出在文化部那文化部怎麼自己看待這件事情呢"},{"start":10761.414,"end":10772.73,"text":"不像沒有所謂歧視高齡的這個問題文化部提供的文化都是全民化的所以是全民化所以是哪一個部位的事情不是文化部的事情"},{"start":10774.499,"end":10789.103,"text":"是行政院長的事情是總統對啊那問題是要怎麼解決啊哪一個部會所有的事情都是全民的問題啊哪一個部會應該來扛起這個責任呢我想每個部會應該都針對自己的業務你真的很會轉欸好啦"},{"start":10792.084,"end":10806.995,"text":"你真的這樣子很會轉這個當然就是文化部的事情嘛我們的文化這個叫做高齡化要轉型這個已經不曉得上講了多少次了然後一直轉轉轉那文化部就不接求嘛不接求這個問題就無解嘛好那個接下來啦文化部看到這個指標這個數據的嘛指"},{"start":10817.034,"end":10837.159,"text":"直線下降雪崩式的出版業嘛這個還需要講嗎這就是出版業的冬天嘛我很多朋友的出版業的嘛大家都過得非常辛苦嘛是 紙本書的衰退我們有看到對對對 所以有這些問題嘛我們現在只是用這些補助啊讀書館採購這個沒辦法根本解決問題嘛"},{"start":10842.062,"end":10854.733,"text":"那現在出版業也是這樣子啦就是出了很多書啦然後還有說最近我看一個新聞有萬本的書籍直接送分化讀啦所以出版業憑感覺出書"},{"start":10860.804,"end":10877.379,"text":"這裡數據也可以看得到每一個世代的數據這數據就是最低了吧60歲以上的過半都沒有在看書啦那到底是他們不看書還是沒有滿足他們的市場文化部應該要去理解啦"},{"start":10880.346,"end":10899.765,"text":"日本當然有很多啦,不過這個也跳過但是我們看提供這個我們到書局看的大概就是這一類的書籍給60歲以上的啦都是這種想像,市場沒有想像、沒有內容創作局限所以產業發展當然都很局限嘛"},{"start":10901.367,"end":10910.38,"text":"那我這裡也給次長看一下啦就為什麼會這樣子因為都停留在引法思維裡面包括"},{"start":10911.736,"end":10939.298,"text":"文化部也是銀髮思維啦那這個我已經講過如果你用文字雲下去你輸入銀髮高領出來的文字雲圖就是這樣子大概就是我們看到如果你輸入壯世代就是這樣子啦落差非常的都是時尚、社會、時感、參與嘛那這樣子就是我們的文化部到底在做哪一方面的事情你當然你現在站著所以你就沒有市場嘛你所做的事情不是他想要的嘛"},{"start":10941.035,"end":10966.572,"text":"那壯世代想要什麼東西這裡提供你參考 input output他事實上有很多面很多面想要很精緻的體驗壯世代是比年輕世代更精緻的更精緻的更需要意義的很深入的文化水準的我們不要把它當作垃圾要把它倒掉把它倒掉的一個心態現在可以做的事情"},{"start":10969.827,"end":10996.673,"text":"現在我正在進行我希望文化部能夠跑在我前面壯世代的爆發80項需求調查你現在如果用GPD輸入幾乎都是引法族的思維我們對這個世代太陌生而且太刻板印象了認知系統大大的失靈完全不符合這個世代但是自己都身在其中都不願意去調整和修改這件事情文化部一定要先調整"},{"start":10997.833,"end":11006.759,"text":"我剛才講了這件事情我一定會追蹤到底而且文化部列為所要所要追蹤的目標要去扛起這件事情的責任次長可不可以"},{"start":11007.81,"end":11029.398,"text":"我想還是再次說明針對高齡世代的需求應該是所有部會的責任那文化部會站在文化部的業務內容裡面跟業務立場上面來做演繹跟…你真的是完全聽不懂聽不懂在講什麼完全聽不懂我跟你講說這就是文化認知文化認知已經錯誤的時候所有的部會就開始跟著錯誤嘛"},{"start":11030.498,"end":11058.369,"text":"包括人民的私現在做這一個調查行為的調查我們針對60歲以上的數據調查幾乎是一片空白所以呢現在告訴你我是在幫助你的出版業之東用你用什麼樣的方式這裡有一塊大的市場800萬的人沒有這份的滿足然後呢這裡就是一個大的市場文化部要去導引這個方向嘛"},{"start":11060.187,"end":11079.554,"text":"所以現在文化部也有提到但是我希望不要敷衍大家都認真想要做事情不要做敷衍不要做敷衍把壯世代的閱讀需求我這裡請文化部承諾三個月內提出鼓勵壯世代的群體提升閱讀意願的政策規劃"},{"start":11080.934,"end":11101.603,"text":"如何提升剛才講50%過半以上的沒有在讀書那你就放棄他們嗎還是認為他們告訴你剛才講哪一個世代壯世代就是我們叫做文青世代文青世代每一個人都想當作家每一個人夢想夢幻都當作家那時候的文化水準非常高現在直接把它當垃圾丟掉"},{"start":11103.103,"end":11123.255,"text":"請他們不是不讀書而是沒有需求他們的這是文化部要扛的責任不要再推給什麼各部會了請文化部提出如何提升狀態閱讀意願的政策規劃第二點請出版業供需調查納入狀態的閱讀需求三個月內提出請問次長可不可以"},{"start":11124.036,"end":11124.336,"text":"好 謝謝 謝謝兩位接下來我們請羅廷偉委員"},{"start":11149.721,"end":11162.731,"text":"好,謝謝主席,主席麻煩請這個王政次還有速發部的林副署長,行事局的林明佐警政監好,我們請文化還有數位還有警政署,謝謝"},{"start":11164.929,"end":11188.568,"text":"今天非常感謝昭緯排這樣子的一個案子我覺得昭緯你一定很接地氣要不然就是你可能沒有買到張學友的演唱會門票我也是受害者之一但是我講真的我們接到太多太多的陳情案件所以對於昭緯這樣子排案我感到非常非常的感謝那文化部在2023年三讀通過《文化創意產業發展法》"},{"start":11191.65,"end":11216.19,"text":"目的就是為了嚇死黃牛的不肖行為但是實施之後到底有沒有改善黃牛的問題次長你說大概有兩千多件的一個檢舉案件對吧檢舉案是那目前我想跟您請問一下就是2023年三讀通過的這個文創法到現在你覺得改善黃牛這件事情一到一百分你覺得改善有打幾分"},{"start":11216.906,"end":11245.748,"text":"我想在整體的黃牛的量尤其是規模化的經營的是的確有減少但是仍然有黃牛的存在這一點是不足的所以您覺得幾分我想分數應該是委員來打我個人覺得看到這一個書面報告大概六頁六頁左右還含前言對於黃牛法對於黃牛的這個賀紙相關的一個作為只有六頁來寫這件事情我覺得是不盡滿意"},{"start":11246.789,"end":11270.45,"text":"那到底次長有沒有覺得說我們的黃牛氾濫到了什麼程度待會我想很多前面的委員應該都有提供一些案例但是我自己也要提供但是我想今天我要另外跟大家討論的是黃牛票最主要有三個面向跟三位現場的三位來做討論第一個法規面賣黃牛票究竟違反什麼法是色違法"},{"start":11270.99,"end":11295.478,"text":"文創法還是刑法我們當然第一個案例大家都在說竹科工程師自行撰寫整個電腦搶票的程式搶票機器人上傳網路免費工人下載搶購演唱會等門票5、6秒鐘可以買到一張被依文創法來法辦第二個案例臺北大巨蛋的運動賽事門票黃牛票被依設違法來法辦"},{"start":11297.239,"end":11325.615,"text":"第3個案例用虛擬身份來定票被依偽造為輸來法辦次長請問你怎麼看國內有這麼多關於賣黃牛票的法規跟委員說明那因為行為的本身有很多不同的面向但他所找到的可以掌握的證據跟可以裁罰的工具有不同所以他在法律的適用上可能會有不同的差異但關鍵仍然是將這一類的行為繩之以法"},{"start":11326.263,"end":11344.674,"text":"好,但是我想我覺得你的回答都蠻厲害的透過直播我想民眾會看到你的說法會覺得好像我們的政府真的有做事但是問題我們現在看到的就是黃牛票還是層出不窮黃牛票還是道高一尺魔高一丈我們看到藝文的這個表演"},{"start":11345.134,"end":11372.036,"text":"票券主要是用文創法那現在在進行的一個處罰次長文創法的第一條規定為促進文化創意產業之發展建構具有豐富的文化及創意內涵的社會環境運用科技及創研發展健全文化創意產業人才的培育並積極開發國內外市場特制定本法看起來文創法當初在特設計上就是比較正面的一個"},{"start":11373.657,"end":11389.126,"text":"在文創法第10支一條我們上面販賣黃牛票的形式要件會不會怪怪的當初怎麼會想說放在這裡跟委員說明的確文創法是一個促進法比較不是一個禁制法但是當時主要是因為黃牛的問題"},{"start":11390.507,"end":11414.518,"text":"實在是讓整體的社會非常關注所以文化部就負起這個責任把黃牛那大概相關唯一能適用的就是文創法因為它畢竟跟演藝票券的文藝票券的市場有關所以我們就把它放在了文創法那我也有說明就是說如果我們在整體的黃牛票因為黃牛票其實不只有藝人藝文演出的票券如果能夠有一些整體的規範我們其實是非常樂於配合的"},{"start":11414.798,"end":11433.934,"text":"所以我說你的回應都很厲害看起來就是文化部願意擔起責任去協助但是我看了當初的文創法第十之一條立法說明提及社會秩序違附法法則過輕請問社違法法則過輕為什麼要修文創法而不是修社違法"},{"start":11434.674,"end":11451.017,"text":"當然你會跟我講嘛就是文化部這不是你的管轄啊你能夠負起的責任所以你去修了這個文創法但是我就想啊文化部報告第三頁講文化部收售之加價轉售檢舉案共2105件檢舉案中資料完備可進行調查609件已交由地方政府進行調查其中300件已處理完均309件調查中完成率約五成次長"},{"start":11460.999,"end":11485.752,"text":"因為文化部收到檢舉後最後還需要交給地方政府進行調查來進行裁罰但是我們看到如果地方政府消極應對怎麼辦我們的確需要努力跟地方政府來做協談跟配合所以我們有說明會跟教育訓練那但是我理解委員覺得現在做得不夠那也是我們做得不夠的地方剛剛包括葉元之委員在講的有些是各自取得不義然後還有"},{"start":11487.432,"end":11512.677,"text":"地方政府的積極度有問題我想都有啦我不要只幫地方政府講話好不好我都納入取得不義還有消極面對都有可能但現在就是我們看到目前法規的機制是否能夠足夠因應層出不窮的黃牛票在國內對黃牛票的有不同法規來處置這部分需不需要統一一個法律來做一個標準我想剛剛你有回應再回應一次好不好你認定"},{"start":11513.737,"end":11515.278,"text":"你覺不覺得需要專法或專章?"},{"start":11530.003,"end":11551.937,"text":"我想你剛剛也有做表態那我們也希望未來有這個專法專章在日本我想很多人都在講日本韓國都有給你做相關的一個有抽選制的阿或者是他們有立專法專章我們更希望跨部會來面對這個問題我們一起來把這個事情來處理我想包括我也有準備幾個拋破影給大家看一下這幾個案例"},{"start":11553.078,"end":11572.65,"text":"你看我的螢幕最左邊我是一個肺癌士氣張學友的歌迷因為沒辦法跟你們搶票我想應該也是搶不到當然他這篇文章在講的是他沒有病房也搶不到票希望大家能夠讓票我想買一張張學友的演唱會門票竟然要透過拜託施捨"},{"start":11574.791,"end":11603.13,"text":"這真的是讓我們感到非常的悲哀第二個台下最大的觀眾是黃牛他透過AI制圖還放了一隻牛在裡面我想這個部分讓我們一再顯示到我們到底現在的黃牛的這個相關產業有多蓬勃發展我們到底現在民眾對於現在的黃牛有沒有根絕我想我自己評分我一定是不及格但是如果用民眾的角度來評分我想民眾可能會給予0分"},{"start":11605.011,"end":11621.125,"text":"但是我現在不只是要苛責我們現在的政治文化部我希望的是我們積極面對處理這個問題而不是一再的只是批評攻擊我們希望處理你看到現在最右邊這個有多少人在上面寫我們800家代購費"},{"start":11623.13,"end":11641.125,"text":"這有沒有符合黃牛票的定義?我有說明代購費要透過個案來認定如果它是必要性花費而且是由第三方來收受比如像遊資、交通這個才能稱之為代購而且它必須有事先的約定但如果超出這個範圍它仍然不是代購仍然觸犯這條法律"},{"start":11641.525,"end":11664.319,"text":"那你認為代購費有沒有一個標準他如果油資可能花幾百塊幾千塊這在當時立法的時候其實文化部是提出了10%的標準10%當時但是被刪除了因為社會不能接受所以我們就刪除了你寫10%沒關係但我要跟你講就是我們所看到的有的3800的門票外面就是賣一萬了"},{"start":11666.969,"end":11681.678,"text":"這個是非常多的這樣子的相關案例我想到底要不要加強取締有沒有可不可以能夠狠狠的取締一年我們再來看看重重的罰看看還會不會有黃牛這是我們現在目前希望的我想這個部分我希望"},{"start":11682.378,"end":11696.823,"text":"今天會把另外兩位都叫上來我覺得訴發部有沒有辦法從源頭去介入那以及我們的警察機關能不能從社委法我自己提了一個版本希望社委法能夠加重但是警察機關這樣子的一個相關設定"},{"start":11698.163,"end":11713.262,"text":"能不能有更好的一個法律出來這是我們未來希望能夠看到的而不是都只是看到我們立法委員積極的希望能夠來修法但是卻看不到我們的行政機關有實際的作為那我想第三個面向文化部有沒有獎勵實名制"},{"start":11714.71,"end":11742.11,"text":"有補助方案現在有獎勵嘛對不對但是實名制對於黃牛防治到底有沒有效我們要不要來探討這個問題我們已經有這樣子的一個獎勵機制但是我們看到完全沒有效果的話那這個獎勵到底有沒有效我想實名制是能夠有效來禁止黃牛這件事情應該可以從市場看得出來像現在看到張學遠唱會他就沒有採用實名制所以黃牛其實才會這麼嚴重如果有採用實名制的其實黃牛就不會這麼"},{"start":11743.03,"end":11757.581,"text":"最後我想要請求本席覺得實名制我覺得有處理一部分的問題但是有大部分的問題也不一定實名制能夠處理而且成本會大增主辦單位會大增這個相關的成本人事之外"},{"start":11758.401,"end":11783.28,"text":"觀眾的成本也會增加觀眾是不是會覺得這個消費體驗會變爛這個部分是不是未來有機會如果你要推實名制我們是願意樂觀其成但是能不能跟產業有更多的配套把它做好能不能再去邀集產業來做相關的溝通來做處理我們來做這個實名制的部分來朝向這個部分我覺得可以但是希望你能夠辦實際的相關的產業說明繼續努力"},{"start":11787.403,"end":11793.592,"text":"好不好 看到效果才是重點謝謝委員好 謝謝兩位那接下來我們來處理我們的臨時提案謝謝羅委員那我們現在就請宣讀"},{"start":11802.168,"end":11828.17,"text":"有鉴於本次1.3全中運辦的過程中．與游泳項目傳出選手因熱身時跳水．致競賽一年爭議．所以依相關技術手冊與競賽規程．現場取消參賽資格．然規程修正與回應上．體育署人多已將由高中體總處理．將由游泳協會討論．衛健體育署作為主辦單位之高度與自覺．同時體育署在相關新聞稿發布外．"},{"start":11828.71,"end":11856.966,"text":"除未與當事人有過聯繫．並有關現場裁判宣告競賽一年作法是否有違比例原則．但會發布新聞稿與事實顯有出入等問題．均會得到說明與處理。．原此請體育署一個月內進行相關事件獨立調查．針對包含規程修正．申訴仲裁．制度以及禮賓業務經濟等業務．向當事人及立法院教育文化委員會提出書面報告提案人陳培宇、郭玉琴、吳芬玉秀的完畢"},{"start":11859.4,"end":11860.121,"text":"請問陳委員有沒有意見"},{"start":11870.532,"end":11895.618,"text":"主席委員我們體育署這邊建議是在第5條的最後面除未與當事人有過足夠聯繫這邊說明一下因為我們在當時其實現場是有代表體育署的競賽委員在現場也把當事人教練把他找過來詳細的跟他說明也有指導他可以該怎麼做去後續去爭取選手的權益不代表體育署完全沒有作為"},{"start":11896.96,"end":11916.42,"text":"也建議在第6行的地方令有關現場裁判加一個限制那第7行的部分在等問題均會得到足夠說明與處理希望能夠有足夠這兩個字加進去第二段的部分在第一行是針對規程與技術手冊的部分修正"},{"start":11918.106,"end":11945.758,"text":"目前為止其實真的問題是出現在技術手冊但不是在規程不過這一點我們還是不會做進一步的爭執還是可以接受那第二行呢申訴審判仲裁制度希望能夠加上審判那仲裁這兩個字眼說實在仲裁字眼不是用在這樣子的一個情況它是arbitration它在這樣子的樣態是不適用但是這邊也尊重委員那我們是建議刪除仲裁兩個字是比較精準的"},{"start":11946.277,"end":11971.497,"text":"那後面這一段的等業務向當事人及立法院教育文化委員會提出書面報告是不是能夠把當事人及這四個字予以刪除以上報告好 陳委員好 謝謝署長 謝謝主席大部分署長說的我們都可以接受改變只有第一個就是在12345第5行沒有跟當事人有過我寫的是有過聯繫那署長希望改成足夠聯繫嘛"},{"start":11972.458,"end":11998.295,"text":"那我這邊想要用一個情況來跟署長討論就是假設我們有學生在學校受到不當的對待那學校一旦要開啟相關調查或是說明一定會請當事人到場說明可是我發現好像在體育界裡面比較慣常是跟選手的教練做說明可是這裡面當這個機制一再一再複製在很多體育事件的現場其實他就忽略青少年表役權這件事情"},{"start":11998.715,"end":12016.694,"text":"那如果把表意權這個概念拉進來看那教練雖然收到了剛剛署長您說的不管是現場的其他人的說明可是當事人他始終沒有辦法好好說明他的感受或者是當他覺得教練告訴他的事情他還有自己的想法想要回饋出來的時候可是卻沒有體育署這邊的大人要聽"},{"start":12017.555,"end":12039.978,"text":"所以是不是其他的修改我都可以接受可是在跟當事人聯繫這件事情上我還是要提出這麼堅定的看法是因為我覺得在很多體育事件當中確確實實都忽略了所謂的兒少表意權而兒少表意權在目前行政院所有所屬的中央機構裡面是非常非常重要的權力的表彰所以這個部分我比較堅持 謝謝"},{"start":12041.803,"end":12063.661,"text":"好,署長。沒有意見。所以說當事人不用,你們這邊是OK的?一般我們過去是希望能夠在未成年的部分先找教練過來,但是剛剛委員提到了那個兒少的表育權,這部分我們沒有意見,所以這部分我們尊重委員。好。好,謝謝署長,謝謝主席。好,那你就跟委員說,那我們這個臨時提案就修正文字之後就通過。好。"},{"start":12067.349,"end":12072.253,"text":"好 我們繼續我們的開會接下來我們請黃珊珊委員 咨詢時間4分鐘 謝謝好的 謝謝主席 我想請文化部次長還有體育署署長以及刑事局還有刑事局的代表 謝謝委員好"},{"start":12094.363,"end":12122.002,"text":"好,三位首長我想今天很重要就是我們在討論所謂在台灣的黃牛票猖獗這件事情黃牛票的存在對於一個國家甚至是對文化界、娛樂界、體育界非常大的殘害不但殘害了粉絲的辛苦錢殘害了主辦方跟代理商的商譽還殘害了藝人的產出價值那最嚴重的是政府的威信各位同意吧"},{"start":12122.862,"end":12143.58,"text":"政府的威信在黃牛票裡黃牛票猖獗的現代當然是一件今天大家都非常關心的事我想請問一下修法之後三個單位都有相關的主責的對象那取締的案子檢舉案子看起來也不少所以我想請問一下次長你認為現在這個法規有沒有效果"},{"start":12145.029,"end":12159.42,"text":"我想從文創法11條修法之後它跟之前黃牛的所謂黃牛的市場比其實還是有好很多我們最近我想民意代表最近收到的就是非常多自己的支持者的"},{"start":12161.676,"end":12187.747,"text":"請託就是希望買到張學友演唱會因為他沒有實名制的結果因為我也打給他說因為我也買不到所以請不要再來找我了重點是主辦單位去問了他是幾秒鐘就不見了幾秒鐘就買完了所以現在的問題大概都是機器人的問題所以就這個案例看起來修法了一年目前為止還是沒有辦法完全二組這樣子的行為"},{"start":12188.527,"end":12213.289,"text":"的確沒有完全遏制不過在裁處的案件上跟之前比當然是已經有了正面的案例所以黃牛就是要讓它賣不掉嘛 對不對黃牛就是要讓它不好賣嘛沒有人買嘛所以我們現在就是你現在不管是文化創意產業發展法還是我們相關的體育產業發展條例都一樣我們是罰所謂的只要加價就罰對吧"},{"start":12214.25,"end":12241.933,"text":"是警政署的是社委法社委法還需要確定是不是自用對嗎文狀法裡面有不證方式也是警政署在查查就是掃票機器人的部分我們現在還要證明人家是不是自用還是要直接他只要拿出來賣加了價錢我們就開罰只要是加價轉售加價轉售就開罰只能以原價或低於原價所以目前為止只要加價轉售就開罰但是我可以看一下"},{"start":12242.774,"end":12258.38,"text":"教育部的網站還有文化部的網站你們的檢舉黃牛專區都有這樣的問題第一個你要叫人家檢舉要提供交易相關資訊要販售者的銀行帳戶匯款記錄表示我要買了才能檢舉嗎"},{"start":12260.236,"end":12275.654,"text":"主要是才能夠獲得買票各位的資訊市長你看一下這是教育部的這是文化部的交易相關資訊提供出來另外一個是教育部的教育部的是要有交易的證據就不是你剛剛講的只要加價"},{"start":12277.219,"end":12281.081,"text":"這是針對檢舉的條件因為還是要知道當事人比如說做這件事的人是誰沒有錯我檢舉可以具名我具名給他我告訴你是哪一個臉書在加價是但是我要有交易的證據嗎"},{"start":12299.108,"end":12324.104,"text":"因為如果沒有交易的紀錄會不知道是誰在販售所以市長那就是違反到你原來立法裡面加價就罰這個原則喔我的意思是說如果你今天這樣的檢舉的方案民眾其實不太知道要怎麼檢舉喔他發現了加價就罰的情況他也沒辦法檢舉喔不一定要真的完成交易他只要有票號就可以那就請你們把你們網站上面的資訊改一下"},{"start":12325.322,"end":12349.4,"text":"如果你要讓民眾知道加價就罰的話你這個網站會讓人家誤導說你要買到才能檢舉這是第一點我們可以強化這個說明不是只有說明你的網站要給人家完整的訊息第二個部分就是剛剛實名制的部分實名制速發部你們的報告裡面完全沒有提到這個部分是怎麼回事啊是實驗站您請速發部"},{"start":12355.464,"end":12379.702,"text":"所以速發部不再協助實名制的事務了嗎?唐鳳部長提過很多次實名制啊好 我給速發部一個建議還有文化部跟體育署建議就是當時在疫情的期間我們在台北市當時小巨蛋所有的演唱會都必須實名制它是做得到的只是要不要做?"},{"start":12380.342,"end":12381.103,"text":"接下來我們請黃婕委員"},{"start":12408.749,"end":12412.686,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請文化部贊賜好 我們請"},{"start":12416.491,"end":12444.067,"text":"好 謝謝政次今天這個主題其實我關心很久了因為我一直都是一個很喜歡聽演唱會很喜歡參加藝文表演跟看體育賽事的歌迷也是球迷那當然現在很肯定這個文創法在去年5月的時候已經修正通過了可是修正將近一年到現在其實我也接到不少的陳情陳情的內容其實跟剛剛很多委員提到的差不多我不是收到那個張學友的陳情"},{"start":12444.927,"end":12446.569,"text":"現在有兩個最大的問題一個是社委法跟文創法的競合這個是非常迫切的"},{"start":12466.65,"end":12485.928,"text":"那另外一個就是實名制的問題先講一下社會法跟文創法這個非常嚴重的競合關係因為已經發生相關的案例了去年底有一個案例是有一個民眾他在網路上把職棒的周邊商品搭配亞警賽的門票來進行販售結果警方是怎麼"},{"start":12486.889,"end":12502.017,"text":"他如何處理呢?他把他用涉違法64條移送臺北的地方法院那法院最後判定是不罰這個結果是不罰因為呢他覺得說這個商品因為亞景賽的門票沒有公定價格的交易價值"},{"start":12503.118,"end":12517.726,"text":"然後說沒有辦法認定購票支出就有轉售的意圖然後也沒有辦法證明說這個人他購買門票的時候確實非公自用那這個是在社會法裡面的條件所以他就不罰了"},{"start":12519.227,"end":12534.849,"text":"可是我要問的是現在我們這種黃牛票的行為或者是說他用這個門票加售其他的商品同時販售的行為他很有可能同時違反社委法跟文創法或是同時違反社委法跟運發條例"},{"start":12536.391,"end":12560.364,"text":"那在這種情況下警方他們要怎麼處理他什麼時候選擇用社會法處理什麼時候選擇用文創法或運發條例處理我覺得這是一個必須要有明確界定的就是通常這種時候到底他需不需要同時送文化部或者是同時送地方政府的文化局或者是地方政府的體育局或運發局呢"},{"start":12561.204,"end":12562.626,"text":"像這種情況你們是怎麼處理的?"},{"start":12576.301,"end":12589.957,"text":"所以嘛可是現在已經發生這已經是在你們修法之後喔已經有文創法也有運發條例了可是地方的警方他收到這個案件的時候還是把他送涉違法處理了那這種情況該怎麼辦"},{"start":12591.579,"end":12620.16,"text":"我們是不是應該要有一個原則然後讓地方的警察他們接到相關的檢舉他們不是跟文化局或文化部檢舉也不是跟地方的體育局或你們體育署來檢舉他們是直接去報警那這種時候該怎麼辦你們是不是應該要有一個統一的處理方式而不是看他檢送的單位變成說如果是警方接到他們就直接用社會法如果是文化局接到反而要用比較重的文創法"},{"start":12621.081,"end":12621.702,"text":"跟我們報告現在已經不會發生"},{"start":12637.754,"end":12640.637,"text":"所以這個一定要很明確我希望說我們文化部跟體育署在跟地方政府溝通的時候一定要明確下達這個指令好不好"},{"start":12659.095,"end":12659.435,"text":"實名制"},{"start":12689.075,"end":12690.657,"text":"所以這個科技由誰來處理?"},{"start":12722.378,"end":12746.016,"text":"所以你們是期待現在如果民間有人去發明完然後再跟你們說我們現在可以處理了嗎是誰來處理是不是應該要你們回去找哪個單位出來研商可不可以現在讓大家知道現在應該還是經營者負擔比較多的責任啦所以我們還是跟經營者來做協商還是你們要請數法部協助我們當然很希望數法部來做一起來做我想這個平台是我們一起的啦"},{"start":12746.776,"end":12759.845,"text":"好 那這個拜託你們會去會同訴發部一起來研究實名制的如何用更好的科技的方式處理好不好好 謝謝 謝謝主席好 感謝 謝謝我們接下來請陳婷飛委員謝謝主席 教委我們是不是請我們文化部還有我們的體育署好 文化部跟體育署 謝謝"},{"start":12779.742,"end":12794.386,"text":"我先請教一下因為文創法當時候查我們的黃牛票是比較早通過那如果依照我們所查獲的以文創法這個10之1第3項的刑法大概是5件5個人"},{"start":12795.586,"end":12818.067,"text":"目前確定的對目前確定的那還有繼續在查嗎有有安靜還在持續持續中嘛對那文創法10-1第二項行政法的部分30件然後2084,490元嗎是那基本上還在查因為總共好像有609件"},{"start":12820.349,"end":12836.9,"text":"對,609件所以309件的調查案當中基本上是採取30案是,目前已經確定了但是其中有300件是已經處理完均了所以這樣的一個比例你認為"},{"start":12838.885,"end":12854.84,"text":"有符合人民的期待嗎?我想能不能做成裁罰的關鍵仍然是所能掌握的證據因為畢竟台灣在法制上是最新法定主義所以如果沒有掌握足夠的證據很難形成裁罰那這也是目前最大的一個整體的困難整體的困難是在這裡"},{"start":12857.202,"end":12870.969,"text":"所以說今天如果經由檢舉因為我們也有專區嘛我們文化部有一個所謂的檢舉專區嘛那檢舉專區上去如果我們受理之後可是證據論嗎"},{"start":12873.21,"end":12890.785,"text":"不論是刑法或是行政法都是證據論可是如果資料不夠就會變成我們無法採取不論刑法或行政法因為我們剛剛有說特別法是優於一切所以是由我們文化部來做這樣的一個處理對不對"},{"start":12894.514,"end":12922.304,"text":"現在應該是坊間跟我們的一個所謂查緝的一些速度跟效率好像大家覺得有點落差現在的關鍵大概有幾個第一個就是能不能取得這個行為人的個資那他的個資包括第一個最大的就是社群平台那社群平台如果不提出不願意交出他的個資的時候我們沒有強制的基礎那第二個當然有跟銀行賬號相關的這也會牽涉到人民的隱私權"},{"start":12923.084,"end":12948.259,"text":"大概在取得當事人個資確認的這個身份上大概是目前整個核心的問題那怎麼解決?因為你由於一些根本我們的這個所謂的剪掉這個部分他是沒有辦法介入就完全由你們可是我們的個資確實又有另外一個要求個資沒有辦法隨意透露是"},{"start":12948.999,"end":12968.381,"text":"那有這個漢格怎麼辦我們現在能夠已經盡可能的去擴張包括售票平台那售票平台業者的合作的狀況其實還蠻好的可是他如果不提供你也沒辦法啊售票平台目前的合作狀況不錯他願意提供只要但是前提他有票號你們只要有提出他們都願意提供只要有票號他們願意提供但是重點是要有那個票號"},{"start":12969.062,"end":12991.428,"text":"這也是為什麼檢舉上我們請求民眾來提供票號的原因因為你有票號稅務平台就可以查出是誰買的這張票他就可以追出這個整個歷程那另外警方的部分跟我們做個資認定也合作的很好然後另外就是電信業者的手機這幾方是我們已經突破的那現在比較難突破的就是社群網站的部分這大概是一個最大的問題社群網站應該是我們目前"},{"start":12993.268,"end":12993.328,"text":"那我們呢?"},{"start":13021.947,"end":13038.395,"text":"這個社群這個區塊沒處理的話你還是沒辦法我想在源頭上恐怕還是要有法律的強制性才有可能處理這塊的問題有想到怎麼突破嗎其實之前委員有一直在提出來說是不是在整體的黃牛行為上面可以有專法來做制約對"},{"start":13039.756,"end":13066.544,"text":"我就說這個必須要去思考的你沒有專法你就會有這個漏洞所以我們當時候修打炸無法之後現在必須要打炸專法就這個原因因為包括如何實名制的一個退票然後還有加價轉售的一個認定問題還有所謂的免費票券它的規範方式其實這整個一點一點當我們修了法之後這後面都會一路的跑出來"},{"start":13067.244,"end":13067.864,"text":"接下來我們請楊瓊英委員"},{"start":13099.856,"end":13107.411,"text":"謝謝主席 楊全宇發言想邀請王政次跟署長好 王政次跟鄭署長 謝謝"},{"start":13111.433,"end":13130.279,"text":"兩位好大家都關心因為這是台灣目前也是全世界大家都非常需要的但是這個黃牛跑出來讓大家很難過所以我們要怎麼樣圍堵第一個也就是到目前為止我們的修正通過是針對於黃牛加重的處罰這個處罰我們也看到"},{"start":13134.88,"end":13140.285,"text":"實際上我們修法的重法仍舊不足以來應對這些樣態這些樣態網路的黃牛手法跟它轉做網路詐騙這個衍生出來是很難過因為我們看到這個數字111年是114件但是112年呢光光到9月份就300多件"},{"start":13156.7,"end":13177.355,"text":"就300多件所以它等於是三倍增啊等於是三倍增所以目前我們修過的條文就是轉售你最高你的票價就是加價5倍那外掛式的或者是機器人來搶票的主3年以下有期徒刑那併科的300萬元以下的這個罰金"},{"start":13178.616,"end":13199.264,"text":"但是我們修過之後剛才本席說的這個數字它也是一直持續在增加那換句話說目前的執行是沒有辦法去應對的所以在這樣的一個情況之下好 我們先來講治票重罰 重抓 那怎麼辦呢但是我看到這個數字112年呢我們1500多件的這個檢舉案件你開罰的台北市只有幾件啊"},{"start":13206.407,"end":13213.732,"text":"臺北市5件,高雄市12件,總法員107萬面對到這樣的問題,次長你有什麼樣的跟署長我們在受理的時候是不是有檢討的空間,怎麼樣簡化那個程序,請做說明"},{"start":13227.333,"end":13250.538,"text":"跟委員說明其實這整個裁罰率的關鍵仍然是取得行為人的個資的問題就是行為人到底是誰能不能確認他的行為的確是觸犯這個黃牛這個文創法所以本期一開頭都告訴你我們現在所修正通過的不足以應對你有很多的網路它的樣態不足以應對你不知道要誰犯罪型態尤其是暫期的部分"},{"start":13253.258,"end":13275.329,"text":"對 那我們怎麼辦這部分可能還是要請警察局跟刑事的部分要靠警方來做我想文化部還是針對在一文票券的部分跟購票的業者跟購票的平台來做協商盡可能的採用實名制的方式降低這樣的犯罪率那我們再請警政監針對剛剛文化部所說的困難來 請出說明"},{"start":13282.728,"end":13301.362,"text":"委員好有關適用文創法以及運傳條例這些黃牛犯罪行為已經有專法規定那至於說轉成詐欺案件原本就是我們警方警政署偵辦的重點我們對於相關的案例我們都會積極來做依法偵辦的動作"},{"start":13304.761,"end":13325.009,"text":"但是我們是有困難的你們兩個的這個界面是有斷點的因為文化部這麼困難你們也很努力在抓但是我有困難你請回座接下來我要請問我要把問題全部拿出來我們在討論的時候才會比較有一個方向但是呢我們看到這個黃牛黑數的問題"},{"start":13327.908,"end":13341.305,"text":"剛才我們講了你網路的部分你找不到人你境外網路大量掃票沒有當面來教育他就沒有辦法取締或者是偷偷地換名目或者是包裝成勞務費"},{"start":13342.947,"end":13362.754,"text":"去躲這個追查勞務會去躲這個追查主要是加價就是處罰對 所以這個文化部也表示了你在演唱會開賣前如果雙方他們約定好他起付代購費那也不算違法喔這也不算喔他轉一個彎啊他也不算喔那似乎我們目前取締的這個黃牛標準呢它是多頭馬車"},{"start":13372.657,"end":13399.93,"text":"所以在這樣的情況之下本席要請教票券綁商品加價販賣那是不是黃牛行為?是不是?原則上算黃牛但是人家要看個案認定因為有些票券它是一開始就有加物件阿或者是加其他的加購所以人家要看個案但原則上如果所以我現在我們面臨到你所提出但是還是很多人用各種的方式去應對"},{"start":13401.471,"end":13404.559,"text":"所以像這樣子的魔舞地帶 你們再去檢討好不好把方案檢討清楚 對不對家家就是違法 但是他們兩個如果"},{"start":13412.153,"end":13412.373,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":13439.625,"end":13439.745,"text":"韓國昌委員"},{"start":13469.872,"end":13474.06,"text":"謝謝主席 麻煩有請體育署署長好 體育署長 鄭署長 謝謝我也好欸 署長齁針對啊 有關於民力組協"},{"start":13480.826,"end":13501.039,"text":"從第一署最近這幾年每年幾乎都拿上千萬我上次質詢的時候說有這麼離譜的事情單據造假然後一查以下全部都自己人自己協會的人出去開公司自己拿補助然後給自己協會開的公司去報銷這麼離譜的事情我上次質詢你4月10日"},{"start":13504.201,"end":13506.963,"text":"報告委員,這部分我們已經在會內已經要求請那個會計事務所來協助我們做全面查核,審計部也過來幫忙做這個查核"},{"start":13525.27,"end":13526.051,"text":"主席宣告多久?"},{"start":13556.564,"end":13585.438,"text":"能拖就拖,能混就混這不我們是請會計事務所來進行第三方公證的我請我已經請審計部去查了他們已經過來了我已經請審計部去查了因為上一次要求你們說逐協欠款的事情部長跟你承諾一個月內徹查嗎一個月內徹查交給我一個書面報告三頁我拜讀了啊你們整份調查報告啊我必須要老實講啊我真的是佩服的無敵投地啊"},{"start":13586.395,"end":13601.199,"text":"為什麼佩服的無底投地啊明明沒有給錢還發扣繳平單造假結果你們上面是什麼針對沒有開立扣繳平單的部分完成更正的程序啊"},{"start":13602.059,"end":13609.983,"text":"根本沒給錢錢我開扣繳平單這不是偽造什麼是偽造請教書長報告委員這部分已經有國稅局來進行調查那這部分我們是在當時呢這個會計的部分他沒有做地緣給付這樣的一個糾正所以呢已經做了國稅局的更正"},{"start":13619.989,"end":13622.85,"text":"請主席採視我們請署長等我們的委員發言完畢之後再來做一遍的回答好謝謝"},{"start":13651.854,"end":13679.54,"text":"看了你們的調查報告稱目結舌明明就是造假用更正的方式就可以處理我想了半天為什麼有這麼離譜的狀況那個時候教育部次長林騰角3月21日受訪說這件事情發生的時候扣腳平單發生的時候你已經辭職了林騰角講的是真的嗎"},{"start":13680.728,"end":13692.373,"text":"報告委員．如果是以事實認定．您講的沒有錯．的確14號才買成立我的辭職案我們就談具體的主席．向帥炫基這間機關報告腳平單請列幾號2月6號你什麼時候離職的"},{"start":13697.605,"end":13724.595,"text":"我二月二號口頭親持二月六號我的中午我就已經飛機我就前往國外去二月六號那一天報扣繳平單的時候來我們來看一下當時的祕書長是誰當時的祕書長依照中華民國足球協會第13屆第一次理事會會議紀錄二月六號那一天你是不是還是祕書長幫委員如果是在書面上我的確還是對嘛"},{"start":13726.704,"end":13753.125,"text":"你什麼時候正式離開主協?報告委員14號那時候是正式的會議紀錄結束所以就回來講了嗎?所以就回來講了嗎?零藤腳可以為了cover你搞成這個樣子喔?報告委員這一部分我們並沒有在當下的稅整個報稅的過程我並沒有參與而且我們秘書長的權益是在單據的部分不信任體育組的查核嘛自己調查自己笑死人了報告委員我請會計師去查核的把偽造的東西"},{"start":13755.507,"end":13758.768,"text":"有關於黃委員的質疑我還覺得鄭署長還是務必給黃委員一個更明確的一個交代好不好是謝謝來我們邱志偉委員"},{"start":13789.234,"end":13793.997,"text":"好 邱委員你要找哪一位"},{"start":13818.125,"end":13832.049,"text":"請體育署署長休息一下請休息一下署長請休息一下看你這樣很辛苦請最認真最專業文化部王史詩王次長次長請市長這個在立法院質詢項目上溫良功典讓算是少數這個賢者做實事"},{"start":13847.645,"end":13872.421,"text":"愚者博虛名在立法院可惜的是愚者比賢者多這是我多年來的感嘆但是孤城無力可回天只能看亂象一再的發生連我質詢都會受到影響連麥克風都要先消毒一下"},{"start":13875.256,"end":13901.112,"text":"市長,您在文化部服務多久了?從去年1月31日到任到現在,一年多的時間。對,你表現非常稱職。那我覺得這個文化的這個展演,或者文化的這些類似頒獎典禮,能夠多一點在高雄或是南部。那過去在我大力的這個質詢之下,你們也非常支持。後來金曲獎還到高雄嗎?"},{"start":13902.253,"end":13931.151,"text":"是之前有去過那我未來希望能夠常態性最起碼三金金馬還有金鐘金曲獎要有一金常態性設在高雄台南我也沒意見這南北的均衡好不好往這個方向我想我們就往均衡跟最適場地去另外呢這個大巨蛋做一個表演或者運動競技場所當然這個環境非常舒適在那邊看球也好"},{"start":13932.051,"end":13940.524,"text":"或者是這個看表演非常好目前好像據我了解使用的這個限制僅限於這個職業運動賽事你知道嗎"},{"start":13943.848,"end":13943.868,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":13972.758,"end":13998.906,"text":"來 下一位 你休息好了嗎 署長我這次都很理性 我這次慢慢來 就事論事 我不會大聲吓吓 咆哮對身體不好 也會製造很多噪音立法院是論證的地方 不是比聲音大小的地方聲音大小我以為是聲音很大 但是為什麼在這個場所是為國家做事 為人民服務而監督政府"},{"start":14000.677,"end":14005.141,"text":"不是比你大聲、比你小聲我小聲也可以很有力量耶溫柔也可以很有力量耶禮值要契合啊"},{"start":14014.628,"end":14021.391,"text":"理直氣壯 悲哉啊 悲哉啊理直咆哮 更悲更哉啊來 這個 你知道這個黃牛票的狀況齁有沒有看過這個法網或者是澳網或者是這個美網你有沒有去看過這個四大公開賽我沒有親自到過我去過齁 你要去官網買也可以官網不好買"},{"start":14044.284,"end":14045.365,"text":"我曾經用這個去買世界盃足球賽"},{"start":14072.978,"end":14072.998,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":14093.857,"end":14093.997,"text":"主席委員"},{"start":14123.885,"end":14125.266,"text":"我還是用麥克風因為這個小麥克風看起來有點酸"},{"start":14153.123,"end":14176.508,"text":"事實上每個委員質詢每個質詢都不管是大聲小聲最重要的要代表民意還有監督行政體系我們期待等一下我的質詢不要任何酸味好 謝謝主席我們請這個數位發展部的林俊秀林副署長副署長你好這個"},{"start":14182.166,"end":14198.12,"text":"電話詐騙先是明年第一名老蔣這也是數位發展部到目前民調第一一個很重要的原因我給你看一下您唐鳳部長在禮拜你備詢的時候提過說為人要防詐騙的這個電話唐鳳說"},{"start":14201.596,"end":14203.918,"text":"不小心被回報為詐騙但明明又不是詐騙你們不小心被回報為詐騙但明明又不是詐騙"},{"start":14231.613,"end":14234.923,"text":"這是古年的事你們現在研究的成果怎麼樣?"},{"start":14237.119,"end":14261.817,"text":"我們目前是主要是電簽法然後用實名用那個如果用數位簽章就推定為這個本人親自參與所以這個這樣子來確認實名制的方式但這個剛委員講的所以你說的可能跟你們補充說的可能不一樣你看那一期你看左上角那個日期這是去年2023年三月配合婦女節你們"},{"start":14263.658,"end":14280.509,"text":"部長對民眾的承諾啊,你們現在是變睡美人了嗎?你們沉睡了一年,我們沒有看到你們提出的方法。我再講一次,你們變成數位發展部變睡美人,已經睡了一年,過了一個月,還沒有提出方法來嗎?你如果不知道,今天數位發展部誰派你來,這不是你主管的業務嗎?"},{"start":14291.641,"end":14292.241,"text":"副所長你知道多少人去搶這個門票嗎"},{"start":14320.858,"end":14346.402,"text":"剛剛委員有說大概加起來是將近十萬吧六萬再加三萬等等兩副兩梯次搶票的人有五十四萬三十六就秒殺了你就知道台灣人都在搶著要去聽張學友的演唱會我給大家看一下你看一下這個是人家來檢舉他好不容易搶到票了五十萬分之一搶到票了你看這個圖結果簡訊過來了"},{"start":14350.663,"end":14375.251,"text":"叫他去付款了結果五十口裡面跳出來一個簡訊裡面跳出來一個北海福祚你看搶張學友的門票跳出的是北海福祚副市長你知道北海福祚是什麼嗎?很難對不對搶張學友的門票好不容易搶到了五十四萬分之一搶到了他通知收降他去繳費結果"},{"start":14377.247,"end":14395.075,"text":"回到簡訊裡面五十口的跳出來說什麼這是北海福壽的詐騙下面一個紅字是寫什麼詐騙過幾天他還講什麼這是一個廣告那人家就在檢舉啦我到底要不要去要不要去要不要去付款去取票"},{"start":14398.619,"end":14425.518,"text":"這個我們可以跟這個個案我們可以跟福斯科了解一下這不是只有一個個案這很多人碰到的事情這個也是回到你們剛剛連部長引諾大家的企業你們不是只有幫政府嘛各部門嘛你們幫各部門有意義對不對我們來做一個333好不好幫企業來做一個好不好來我們看一下現在機制裡面有很多缺點不知道你要民間主動去回報你採取這黑名單的機制嘛對不對"},{"start":14426.766,"end":14441.761,"text":"可是企業常常就被污染,像剛才那樣的東西你就造成企業本身,民間的這個業者本身負擔就很重第二可能更嚴重的,對民眾會造成困擾啊來我們用一個方式好不好,來面對詐騙請數位部做這件事情來"},{"start":14443.564,"end":14469.651,"text":"有沒有可能向你們幫忙各政府機構用的一一我們來做一個333就是所有的商家可以跟政府數位發展部建立起來的我們做個申請由政府來做兩件事情把他這個公司的資訊的安全還有公司查核把它做好如果確定是沒有問題你就給人家一個驗證碼以後所有的企業所有的商家就透過這個333傳回去那就不會出現剛剛對不對"},{"start":14471.431,"end":14494.791,"text":"報告委員這個在那個電信主管機關那邊有在跟電信商那邊在討論他們有自己對於民間的一些做法這個恐怕他們已經在討論了我們目前就只針對地方政府跟關鍵基礎設施跟中央政府所以這個因為民間他可能有商機可能本席今天會提這個現在是三書民眾是最大受害者嘛對不對搶到票了結果不敢去買"},{"start":14496.087,"end":14497.368,"text":"這也是你主管的業務嘛你們討論一下"},{"start":14523.544,"end":14523.664,"text":"請羅智強委員"},{"start":14555.584,"end":14555.985,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14563.007,"end":14588.346,"text":"市長好 張學友演唱會 那麼臺北廠6場6萬多張門票3月30號就秒殺嘛 那家常的3場4月21號開賣 然後3分30秒又全部售完那買不到的歌迷痛批 黃牛利用城市掃票大掃特掃 那一般民眾根本搶不過 質疑為什麼不採全實名制"},{"start":14588.826,"end":14612.392,"text":"我看文化部的報告中提到今年的一些熱門演唱會28場是實名制3場是部分實名制2月3日高雄國家體育館的紅髮愛德演唱會4月6日、7日在臺北小巨蛋的IU演唱會購票入場都要實名制次長為什麼這次據你了解張學友的演唱會沒有採實名制"},{"start":14613.086,"end":14632.667,"text":"跟委員說明因為目前實名制是沒有強制的法源所以我們基本上都是跟公報平台跟主辦方來做協商鼓勵跟希望他們採取實名制或者用補助的方式協助他們因為採取實名制會增加他們的整個的成本所以大家用這種方式來鼓勵但沒有辦法強制"},{"start":14634.288,"end":14644.756,"text":"那個沒辦法強制可是另外一方面我們就看到一個現象當然有需求就有市場買不到票的民眾就會在社群網站去尋求轉讓這是黃牛的一個起源可是在"},{"start":14649.679,"end":14667.396,"text":"我們又發現包括說臉書社團都很多販售門票甚至剛剛也講了有些是詐騙但民眾匯款根本拿不到票去年修了文創法可以重罰黃牛但是熱門演唱會的搶票亂象依舊沒有停止那次長怎麼看呢"},{"start":14668.353,"end":14668.513,"text":"所以你認為都是個體戶現象?"},{"start":14693.288,"end":14693.528,"text":"我舉個例子啊"},{"start":14713.743,"end":14726.759,"text":"上個月就有民眾表示他要向他人購買日本高手LISA的演唱會門票對方加收4000元的手續費那他向臺北市政府檢舉那回應是參照文化部112年9月8日辦理文創法第10條之一"},{"start":14731.144,"end":14750.558,"text":"主管機關教育訓練主張略以．犯受人代購錢以說明代購費用．且有明確金額則未構成違法。那我想請問文化部是怎麼去定義所謂的手續費代購費是不是屬於法所禁止的黃牛行為還是說今天只要明碼標價就無法可罰"},{"start":14751.218,"end":14752.199,"text":"4千元的手續費你覺得"},{"start":14777.791,"end":14801.841,"text":"是合理的嗎?不合理那可是如果說他就說我這是手續費啊那你所謂的又說加價就是重點是他們有沒有事前約定因為代購這件事情是一個明法上的約定行為所以它是一個契約行為那如果說你們之前有訂定契約那個契約是廣義的包含你用LINE用各種方式做確認那就是你事前就同意我這樣講因為這個案實在太多了也沒時間講"},{"start":14803.121,"end":14829.969,"text":"我覺得去年文創法、修法有委員主張實名制那文化部是保留態度沒有支持強制的實名制可是現在修法進一年我覺得是不是文化部能不能好好來評估一下現在到底這種狀況我覺得這種狀況好像黃牛現象民眾真的是非常不滿意請你們再多加研究好不好我們可以往這方向做研議好 謝謝以上謝謝委員"},{"start":14831.348,"end":14847.941,"text":"好 謝謝羅志強委員接下來我們請何新淳委員、何新淳委員、何新淳委員蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員、蘇清泉委員鄭天才委員、鄭天才委員、鄭天才委員李坤澄委員、李坤澄委員、李坤澄委員"},{"start":14849.228,"end":14854.93,"text":"吳思堯委員．鄭振前委員．林楚英委員．劉建國委員．張家俊委員．王美惠委員．蔡易瑜委員．羅明才委員．"},{"start":14877.097,"end":14906.363,"text":"羅明財委員．羅明財委員好今天登記質詢委員均已發言完畢另外有林倩琦委員．林祖英委員提出書面質詢關於今天會議做如下的決定那我們報告及詢討完畢委員所提書面質詢或是相關的資料我們列入記錄並且刊登公報對於委員質詢所要求提供相關的資料或是未及答覆的部分請相關機關盡速以書面答覆報告委員會我們今天議程處理完畢"},{"start":14907.123,"end":14908.165,"text":"現在休息謝謝大家"},{"start":14945.766,"end":14953.095,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"15854","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15854","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685cb0d1d3af5c18c1cce1f9dc46489d2413be8d109af184be40e9f7c49109888e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-04-29","start_time":"2024-04-29T08:31:00+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-04-29T17:02:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":30660,"委員發言時間":"08:31:00 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謝謝主席各位大家早安我講一下我的提案好了因為這一次因應這個我很多不分黨派的委員都有提出兒童及少年性剝削條例的修法那在我的版本裡面有幾個重點第一個是下載這個行為因為網路下載檔案傳輸這種就是原本法律就有保障它原本就有定義它是重置的行為那兒童及少年性剝削影像外流這個也是這一次主要的方案的管道"},{"start":2044.19,"end":2068.749,"text":"所以我認為要減少這些不法的影像透過下載然後進行傳播所以我的法案裡面有提到36條加入重置這個行為的樣態然後也把他的罰金提高他的上限再來第二個是持有在39條裡面有規範持有兒少性剝削影像那我希望可以增加他的刑度跟罰金的上限來增加他的嚇阻的效果"},{"start":2069.329,"end":2096.804,"text":"而第三個是目前《兒童及少年性剝削條例》五十一條裏面有規範針對犯罪者的輔導教育推述都還是只有觀念或知識的認知教育所以我希望比照性侵害防制犯罪條例裏面來規範犯行嚴重的加害者應該要接受身心的治療來減少再犯的可能性那以上是我的條例的修正希望大家可以支持然後我們加速落實對於兒童權益的保障謝謝"},{"start":2099.027,"end":2099.347,"text":"蘇清泉委員"},{"start":2120.732,"end":2144.612,"text":"謝謝主席國民黨黨團的提案跟我的提案我們就一起說明節省時間國民黨黨團第一個就是修正第三條建立性剝削的資料庫防止境外犯罪第五條比照性侵害防治法要求警政單位執行"},{"start":2146.158,"end":2168.906,"text":"而少剝削、被害人安全維護、犯罪調查等等。修正第36條提高行責及行徒增加阻嚇的力道。修正第38條針對散佈為成年性影像提高行徒及行者。"},{"start":2170.137,"end":2191.35,"text":"條文修正草案案第39條無正當理由持有兒少影像提高刑度取消單純科罰金之處罰改為最輕為居易並科罰金提高。條文修正草案案第40條提高刑度及刑責增加阻嚇及懲罰的力道。"},{"start":2193.447,"end":2215.366,"text":"令針對盈利集團法之惡行加重處罰。修正四十四條提高購買兒少性、親、兒性傾向的刑度罰金。修正第四十五條提高刑責刑度、新增預期不改善者直接熱刃停業。賀子為成年"},{"start":2218.969,"end":2247.149,"text":"爾童陪酒坐臺之歪風加重刑責科三百萬罰金本席的是第三十九條我們也很感謝衛務部對本席提出的修正案表示尊重我們是提高他的刑責跟罰金以上說明謝謝接下來我們請郭育晴委員說明"},{"start":2255.593,"end":2271.679,"text":"本席所提出關於這個《兒少性剝削法》的這個防制條例第38跟第39條的一個修正那麼近年來因為這個兒少通報的這個案例是越來越多那根據衛福部他們的統計資料就是受害人的這個比例從2020年的2077人一直到2023年其實是逐漸上升將近是翻倍"},{"start":2279.702,"end":2285.988,"text":"告知受害人數為4378人。由於現行法令對於製造或散佈兒童性剝削的行為及影像處罰過輕,在於裁罰行動沒有辦法彰顯保護兒童身心安全的價值及宗旨。"},{"start":2302.816,"end":2326.324,"text":"所以本席認為其實在為了要有效的降低所謂的持有的機會那麼有效的嚇阻這個犯罪行為的一個發生那本席希望能夠是不是比照中華民國刑法第277條以傷害罪的一個角度來切入所謂的討論的刑期那如果是用重傷害的一個角度刑責應該提高到三年以上"},{"start":2326.544,"end":2344.889,"text":""},{"start":2345.902,"end":2346.402,"text":"以上向大家說明,謝謝"},{"start":2374.366,"end":2374.526,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":2387.267,"end":2415.871,"text":"本席是阿宅我們最能夠了解網路的好但是我們也應該要盡力遏止網路的惡近年來非法偷拍與兒少性犯罪的影像論壇的不法情勢雖被檢警查獲但該網站變更網域以後卻又捲土重來顯見我們應該需要重新思考這項議題在制度上的不足為了遏止非法偷拍與兒少性犯罪影像網站的存在"},{"start":2417.11,"end":2431.408,"text":"本席所提出的兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條以及第四十四條的修正草案主要有兩個部分。第39條第一項關於持有兒少性影像的犯罪樣態參酌國外法規"},{"start":2433.79,"end":2452.811,"text":"厲如德國刑法第184條對於單純持有兒童或少年色情刊物處以三年以下有期徒刑。奧地利刑法也是相同的刑度,所以將第39條第一項的刑度提高為一年以上、三年以下有期徒刑,希望能夠符合罪行相當的原則。"},{"start":2453.832,"end":2472.74,"text":"其次由於目前兒童及少年性剝削防制條例規範缺漏了購買或取得會員資格以關攬兒少性行為或兒少性影像等服務的行則而購買行為與取得會員資格的行為都等同於鼓勵或者經營了兒少性剝削產業鏈的形成和發展"},{"start":2473.806,"end":2501.732,"text":"所以我在此提出增訂了第44條第二項的規定,針對支付對價購買服務或性影像,以及花錢取得服務會員資格者,都應該討論、克與一定的刑責。請大家一起支持,我們朝野共同努力,一起構建更好的法治與環境,積極嚇阻網路性暴力,保護我們的孩子,不再受到任何有心人士的傷害。"},{"start":2502.612,"end":2504.493,"text":"憲童及少年性剝削"},{"start":2527.13,"end":2556.269,"text":"各位同仁大家好那針對我們這個性剝削的這個修正草案那原則上我們簡短的簡短二要來跟大家報告主要就是要斷鏈斷鏈的意思就是說把這個產業鏈給斷鏈那譬如說拍攝製造我們第三十六條拍攝製造或這個兒童或少年性影像的部分我們把提高罰則那特別是在強暴脅迫拍攝兒童性影像的部分我們從七年以上改為十年以上有期徒刑得併課一千萬以下罰金也就是說從"},{"start":2556.869,"end":2561.692,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2578.804,"end":2601.403,"text":"再來就是說針對第四十七條修法強調網路平台就是把強調平台的責任這個就是說從製造端到這一個剝削端到這一個平台端我們全部都要加重他的責任比如說對業者不配合的罰款我們從六萬元以上六十萬元以下改為二十萬元以上五百萬元以下"},{"start":2602.924,"end":2618.423,"text":"不管是從源頭開始,我們要把這個產業鍊鍛煉,所以說把每一個步驟把它完成之後,修法相關的步驟把它完成之後,我們相信在於震攝力也好,或者是在散播力也好,散播力能夠降低。"},{"start":2618.863,"end":2619.504,"text":"黃建豪委員說明。黃委員不在,請林一錦委員說明。"},{"start":2645.816,"end":2648.798,"text":"另外一位不在,請李昆城委員說明。謝謝主席。那因為修改兒童性剝削條例,這已經是屬於跨黨派的一個共識。那修法也是刻不容緩。那修法越快是保障越多、越快。所以本席是期待本會期能夠順利通過。那本席這個修改的條文如下,"},{"start":2675.322,"end":2699.161,"text":"第一個是修正原條文第二條第一項第三款,徵定非基於政當目的持有性影像,還有以對價取得存取上開物品電池記錄之權利,都列入這個性剝削的定義。第二個呢,修正第三十六條還有第三十八條,將拍攝、製造兒童或少年之性影像及散布、播送、交付公然陳列的違法行為,"},{"start":2699.929,"end":2720.978,"text":"他的刑事處罰加以提高我認為這也是跨黨派的共識第三、修正第39條第四項的規定以對價取得、存取兒童或少年之性影像與性相關而客觀上足以引起性慾或羞恥之圖畫、語音或其他物品之電磁記錄權力這個行為樣態以持有論為修正第五十條的規定"},{"start":2726.864,"end":2748.252,"text":"則敦促媒體善盡社會責任,避免傳播足以引誘、媒介、暗示或使其他兒童或少年遭受性剝削之餘的資訊。則敦促媒體善盡社會責任,避免傳播足以引誘、媒介、暗示或使其他兒童或少年遭受性剝削之餘的資訊。則敦促媒體善盡社會責任,避免傳播足以引誘、媒介、暗示或使其他兒童或少年遭受性剝削之餘的資訊。則敦促媒體善盡社會責任,避免傳播足以引誘、媒介、�"},{"start":2750.18,"end":2778.506,"text":"則提高無正當理由不接受輔導教育的罰款。本席也看過相關的委員的提案。我也認為希望衛福部能夠參考大家的意見,因為衛福部本身沒有提案。希望能夠參考委員的意見,把修正法案能夠盡快通過。最好這個會期能夠通過,能夠讓我們保障越來越快、越來越好。謝謝。"},{"start":2779.974,"end":2780.254,"text":"主席"},{"start":2795.09,"end":2817.997,"text":"主席還有各位我們的部落官員、各位委員大家好本期這次提出的兒童及性剝削防制條例的修正相關草案是因為隨著網際網路的普遍、串流媒體的興起那兒少易受性剝削的風險也隨著增加所以為了應對應應這一項挑戰本期提案修正第二條"},{"start":2819.127,"end":2830.312,"text":"則一、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條、第三十八條條文修正草案。則一、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條、第三十九條條文修正草案。則一、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條、第三十九條條文修正草案。則一、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條、第三十九條條條文修正草案。則一、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年"},{"start":2841.036,"end":2866.486,"text":"還對潛在的犯罪者也發出明確的警告社會對於這類侵害兒童及少年權益的行為零容忍的態度那這種做法也是基於沒有市場就沒有殺戮這個原則強調了剷除需求端在防制性剝削中的一個重要性那當然我想針對這個部分我們將購買行為列入犯罪行為的類型也有助於警方跟檢察機關"},{"start":2867.566,"end":2893.642,"text":"在偵查和起訴此類案件時有更為明確的法律依據這不僅能夠加大打擊的力度也能提高法律的執行效率從而更有效的保護兒少免受侵害希望也藉由這一次的修法希望能夠建立一個更加堅固的保護的機制為兒童跟少年創建一個無懼侵害的一個成長環境為他們的健康成長提供"},{"start":2893.882,"end":2894.683,"text":"則是我們對未來社會的責任承諾。"},{"start":2912.459,"end":2937.769,"text":"很快的說明第一個就是要增加刑度我看這個大概是大家的共識但作為一個刑法學者在這邊要提醒大家一下就是我們最後還是要參照這整體的這個刑度對照表那理論上我個人我自己在提案裡面有寫到兩年是比較合理的那最主要是要增加他的負擔因為沒有去增加他的負擔處分單純提高刑法的意義並不高那至多應該是三年"},{"start":2939.17,"end":2960.555,"text":"因為如果三年再往下的話,會動到其他條文的刑度,那除非我們要全部一起修正,這是第一件事情。第二件事情就是呢,我看到蠻多委員有提到對價取得這件事。那以刑法的規範來講,單純對價取得就可以構成刑法上的規範,在整部法律裡面是非常非常稀少的,最主要就只有在什麼買賣、收受髒物罪。"},{"start":2962.455,"end":2979.746,"text":"所以如果真的要把對價取得、要把購買直接當作一個犯罪行為、把它當作毒品一樣的話,需要有更堅實的理由。那我在另外跟月前委員的提案裡面有把它設計成雙重違憲,意思就是你購買,你購買再加上譬如說你以特定青少年或者兒童作為類別。"},{"start":2980.886,"end":2995.917,"text":"那這樣的話他就有雙重的危險,那就可能比較值得從一般的違法到刑事上的違法,這是我第二個建議。那第三個建議就是在加強刑法力道的這個同時呢,非常重要的一點就是虛擬兒童。那虛擬兒童這一邊呢,如果我們還把它擴張,把虛擬的都處罰進來的話,一定會有過寬的問題,因為你的刑度已經加重了,你的行為類型也變多了。"},{"start":3004.463,"end":3026.722,"text":"所以不管是在我們的修法理由或者在這次衛福部的意見,我強烈建議必須要把虛擬排除。那虛擬排除以後呢,但是譬如說是以真實兒童作為比如說AI啊什麼等等之類的,這個納入這沒有問題。最後就是刑度加重、圖法不足以自刑啦。單純刑度的加重不代表這些人一定抓得到。"},{"start":3027.162,"end":3027.622,"text":"接下來我們請王士堅委員說明。"},{"start":3058.005,"end":3086.23,"text":"主席各位同仁本席提案兒童及少年性剝削條例之修正草案那麼我們是希望法規能夠更完善的保護性被害未成年被害者他們這個能夠得到應有的保護那所以我的看法兩點第一點應該加重"},{"start":3088.239,"end":3115.637,"text":"對兒少幼拐性交易、強迫拍攝以及散佈營利的罪輕本行。前一段時間黃姓一人他所作所為令人髮指,但是承辦檢察官最後竟然以犯罪情節非重大給予他還起訴。這一件事情"},{"start":3117.001,"end":3140.727,"text":"讓我們整個社會嘩然。所以為了避免檢察官因為誤判而重犯的犯罪情節重大之加害人。所以我認為應該加重對未成年、誘拐性交易、強迫拍攝、散播營利等罪之最輕本行。"},{"start":3142.49,"end":3166.565,"text":"讓加害人沒有辦法再適用緩起訴的要件。第二點,我認為應該增訂購買性影像者之加重處罰,因為透過切斷需求來抑制非法性影像來源之壯大。"},{"start":3168.413,"end":3194.129,"text":"其實這是非常重要的一環所以本席提案修正本法第44條我要徵定支付對價關染或持有兒童性影像者處三年以上、五年以下之有期徒刑以上兩點是我個人的看法謝謝"},{"start":3195.506,"end":3196.687,"text":"王美惠委員陳金惠委員"},{"start":3222.455,"end":3238.79,"text":"委員、各位官員、主席,大家早安。感謝朝委見及履及了把大家最關注的避免殘害兒童來修法,排定了今天的兒童與少年性剝削防制條例的議案。身為提案人之一,以下是我的草案重點。我認為"},{"start":3240.512,"end":3258.318,"text":"最近的新聞這些違法性影像被販賣還有持有等事件國人從上到下都身無痛絕但受害者一旦又有未成年兒少族群的話更會因為相對弱勢沒有社會的應變能力所以我們在修法的重點必須要積極的來保護這些兒少"},{"start":3261.039,"end":3279.157,"text":"所以我所謂提案的呢透過對於第三、第五、第八、第三十九跟第四十七條的修正我要求呢政府每半年就要公布兒童性剝削防制政策的檢討成效然後我們要建立新犯罪資料庫也要提高犯罪的刑度"},{"start":3279.737,"end":3308.151,"text":"而且當條文審查時我也會提出修正動議針對兒少性影像的持有行為我想要再區分出無故持有以及支付對價而無故持有同時提出科技巡查業務的法定依據還有規定網路業者不得拒絕等等內容以上也拜託大家支持大家都知道說母親節快要到了我們希望台灣的每一個兒童都可以在愛與尊重的環抱中"},{"start":3308.911,"end":3311.615,"text":"閱讀、三讀,成功修法當成國人最好的母親節禮物。謝謝大家。"},{"start":3333.206,"end":3343.638,"text":"大家好,大家午安。今天本市也提出我們今天的二、三個條款來賓。本市是覺得先一站,我相信大家都看到這些孩子受災害,"},{"start":3349.024,"end":3354.786,"text":"因為他們去我們的網站裡面有最特別的就是一個創意私房,大家不知道都當作不知道是要賣吃還是賣什麼,結果不知道說這裡面是八成的孩子會收集的網站,尤其在這裡面有千多個會員。"},{"start":3372.83,"end":3379.792,"text":"你要讓大家看一看的時候,還可以改變在這個社會的時候,有人會看,又一定有人會做。在這個過程當中,你看這些孩子,尤其看到孩子被大人的白色來欺負上,"},{"start":3392.455,"end":3397.699,"text":"你看這是非常心痛所以本席在三十九條裡面本來我們的法規有定一年以下本席提出三年以下所以我覺得這個條款我相信我們在野任何什麼都覺得這個條款要看經過不覺得對這個社會來說這麼困難"},{"start":3421.554,"end":3448.489,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條條文修正草案案。案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少"},{"start":3450.109,"end":3450.43,"text":"王紅薇委員"},{"start":3462.279,"end":3480.775,"text":"謝謝主席我想我們今天修法最主要是藝人黃子嬌她因為無故持有未成年的性影像而且造成整個社會的轟動以及憤怒的台版N號房的事件所以在這個修法的部分要跟大家做以下的報告"},{"start":3482.036,"end":3500.104,"text":"我們當然在這次修法重點就是以這個持有無辜持有這個未成年影像應該要加重刑責但是呢如同剛才王美惠委員所講的有人看就是一定有人去製造所以在我們的修正條文裡面"},{"start":3501.625,"end":3517.763,"text":"我所提出的除了是你持有之外那麼在上游的部分你拍攝製造這些性影像或者是更嚴重的你招募引用容流媒介或協助來製造性影像"},{"start":3518.484,"end":3531.998,"text":"以及用強暴、脅迫、藥劑、詐術、催眠術等方式,我覺得應該更加重刑責。另外一方面,我在整個修法裡面特別提到的就是有窩裡反的條款。"},{"start":3533.559,"end":3538.726,"text":"也就是為了降低我們辦案的成本可以揪出更多這樣的不法集團所以如果你在偵查或審判中你自白者可以減輕其刑公出性剝削影片來源者而查獲其他的證犯或共犯者"},{"start":3552.543,"end":3561.886,"text":"好這樣子也可以做一些減刑因為我的刑度是把提高的比較高但是呢在這個過程裡面事實上就是比照我們現在的毒品的犯罪也就是在我們的未來可能有很多這一類的案件那為了讓我們在檢調他整個的查查的過程裡面可以減輕他的成本所以呢也就鼓勵"},{"start":3578.931,"end":3582.793,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":3600.51,"end":3624.543,"text":"謝謝,謝謝主席那各位委員、主席大家早安就是我先就我的提案做一個說明因為在這一次我的秀案上面分成三個部分第一個就是提高刑度和罰金那在刑度跟罰金基本上就是39條跟44條因為過去並沒有正當的理由持有兒童性影像的刑責跟罰金只有一年以下有期徒刑和三到三十萬所有的版本就是提高到一到三年把它提高到三年然後"},{"start":3625.163,"end":3628.585,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":3648.874,"end":3674.271,"text":"所以我希望大家可以來支持這個版本再來最後一個部分就是我的條文裡面也加入了主管機關得於必要時公布犯人的姓名或名稱就是要來約束我們的犯罪者並進一步達到嚇阻的效果其實這一條在《兒少全法》的第49條和第97條都有規定但我也的確是可以給予主管機關一定的空間來決定要不要執行公開姓名的行動"},{"start":3675.291,"end":3699.281,"text":"這次兒童性剝削防制條例的修法我再次提出這樣子的內容其實也希望讓大家一起來重新思考到底我們給這個兒童犯罪者的空間是不是反而助長了整體社會對兒童性剝削的漠視以上說明還請行政部名以及主席還有我們的委員給我的版本支持謝謝好謝謝接下來我們請何欣淳委員說明"},{"start":3706.074,"end":3706.294,"text":"主席"},{"start":3724.949,"end":3746.389,"text":"能夠盡快地讓這一次的兒童及少年性剝削防治法的修法可以趕快地來三讀通過。我想今天有那麼多不分黨派的委員都有提案,我想我是希望能夠儘速地出委員會,而且儘速地能夠三讀通過。這是我想身為一個母親希望能夠做到的。"},{"start":3750.332,"end":3755.875,"text":"本席在上一屆也有參與兒少性剝削法的一個修法。當時針對拍攝、製造、散布"},{"start":3760.077,"end":3779.582,"text":""},{"start":3779.642,"end":3799.479,"text":"那以這樣子的交易、對價的關係顯然在上一次的修法並沒有討論到。所以本席提第39條希望能夠針對有交易、有對價金錢取得的性影像、兒童或少年的性影像,我們另外加碼增訂懲罰條款。"},{"start":3803.049,"end":3819.517,"text":"adequa部分為提到第五十一條,我們認為現階段雖然對於這樣子的一個案件判刑有罪或還期數的確定者,他必須要接受四個小時以上及五十個小時以下的輔導教育,但"},{"start":3820.578,"end":3845.759,"text":"顯然不夠只有輔導教育部分的行為人還是有可能因為其他的因素對於兒少產生一些性慾及俗稱的戀童癖那我覺得對這一類人他可能是患有所謂的心理疾病所以呢僅接受的輔導教育是無法根治所以呢我也提案修法參考性侵害犯罪防治法那我們希望呢針對專業機關評估後"},{"start":3848.282,"end":3857.638,"text":"其狀況我們可以是身心治療、輔導或教育,希望能夠減少行為人再犯之可能性。以上修法請各位支持。謝謝。好,謝謝。接下來我們請范雲委員說明。"},{"start":3869.417,"end":3895.592,"text":"謝謝朝委我想去年修法我們提高了散布製造性影像的法則那也增列了強化24小時的下架機制那而且不下架可以立刻斷網那因為這次的事件我們也看到這樣子的一個去年的修法還有不足之處那我的版本提出了七個重點先談兩個就是有不少委員都有提到的就是針對兒少性影像只要是付費觀看購買"},{"start":3897.173,"end":3914.159,"text":"甚至下載就是犯罪鏈的一環,這次修法應該要納入,讓犯罪的樣態更完善。另外提高刑責的部分嚇阻犯罪也是蠻多委員有提到的。除此之外我的版本還針對這次我們看到我們去年修法去處理的,因為反應來講,"},{"start":3916.26,"end":3930.405,"text":"一般網絡平台收到通知之後基本上都會在24小時內下架而造現象可是這一次我們看到犯罪網站本身會利用在期限內下架單支影片規避責任不用被斷網"},{"start":3931.465,"end":3946.536,"text":"所以針對這個部分我的版本首先提出情節重大的犯罪網頁主管機關可以直接斷網把犯罪網站跟一般網站做出區隔那以上三點看到衛福部的公開方向都支持那最後呢我跟婦女學校團體還有獨家提出四個重點"},{"start":3947.116,"end":3972.299,"text":"第一個,針對散佈性影像,而且同時散佈兒少個資者,要加重二分之一刑責。第二個,網路誘拐兒少是一種新興犯罪行為,也應該納入兒少性剝削的範圍,從一開始就預防犯罪。第三,應該參考美國經驗,建立性影像資料庫,利用影像的DNA下架已經被認定違法的性影像,避免重複被傷害。最後呢,"},{"start":3972.719,"end":3973.62,"text":"接下來請林思敏委員說明。"},{"start":3999.357,"end":4023.523,"text":"謝謝主席。我們針對兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案本席提出我的提案說明。我想近幾年未成年性剝削的案件是層次不窮。過去針對性剝削的相關的案件我們看到我們的法院判刑都非常的輕微。只要這些被告這些犯罪的"},{"start":4024.423,"end":4047.774,"text":"罪犯表示有悔悟,坦承不悔,通常受到緩刑判決。一直到黃子嬌這位藝人加入創意私房購買相關的兒童性剝削影片,這類案件才受到司法、衛福及法務部門的重視。"},{"start":4048.974,"end":4073.621,"text":"受害的兒童及少年身心都可以說受到非常嚴重的迫害且所需療癒的時間非常漫長這都是我們難以想像的因此必須透過修法來遏止這些惡意製造、散布或持有兒童或少年性圖畫、語音、影像或其他物品的犯行因此本席的提案"},{"start":4074.944,"end":4095.74,"text":"除了提高刑罰與罰金外我們也要求相關的主管單位必須建立兒少性剝削犯罪的資料庫並公布犯行者的姓名與相片於主管機關的網站上提供民眾來查詢讓這些不法的業者或犯罪者"},{"start":4096.58,"end":4123.827,"text":"讓他們的姓名公諸於世,讓社會、大眾、大家共同來對他們提出譴責。此外,除了強暴、脅迫與意圖營利等犯罪態樣外,本席也特別提案將那些使用不法取得兒少性剝削物品來恐嚇他人生命、身體、自由、名譽或財產、幣置身、危害安全的犯罪者加重其懲處。"},{"start":4125.12,"end":4154.147,"text":"最後現今這些犯行透過網際網路也因此必須將數位發展部列為我們的主管機關之一更要要求網際網路的平台服務提供者於規定時限內主動通報並增加犯罪者輔導教育支持數以實際嚇阻相關犯行的一再發生以上敬請各位委員支持好謝謝接下來我們請林岳勤委員說明"},{"start":4164.25,"end":4185.898,"text":"主席、各位委員我這邊大概主要我認為今天創意司法在台灣十年然後過去被揭發的觸感空間九年的時間我覺得如果加重罰則事實上是主因嗎?不是主要的是還是能不能抓得到所以針對我的版本的話第三條、第八條我認為各個"},{"start":4188.021,"end":4204.803,"text":"目的事業主管機關應該各施其責。因為我們希望確保那個事權統一,避免人人有責卻無人負責。所以希望在第三條裡邊把大家的所有的目的事業主管機關把它講清楚說明白。"},{"start":4205.165,"end":4208.726,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4230.506,"end":4231.707,"text":"則三十六條、三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4247.36,"end":4272.371,"text":"則三十九條,刑度及金額。四十四條,針對會員資格,甚至有針對於裁罰金額及刑度。四十七條,希望在巡查,然後如果有重大危險的話,事實上可以立即的停止解析之外,能夠也取得法院的一個同意。最後大概就是五十一條,我們希望是在"},{"start":4273.291,"end":4289.977,"text":"一旦如果這些加害被害大概都能夠接受心理輔導來以減少未來可能再持續的傷害以上好謝謝那以上委員的提案說明完畢現在我們請衛生福利部薛部長說明時間十分鐘"},{"start":4305.383,"end":4333.794,"text":"主席：各位委員、女士、先生今天是大院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議．審查委員黃捷等20人擬具的《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案》等共計36案。本部呈邀列席報告,敬請各位委員不吝指教。"},{"start":4335.188,"end":4344.156,"text":"有關委員擬具的《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》部份條文修正草案本部的意見綜合說明如下"},{"start":4345.27,"end":4369.457,"text":"一、委員建議配合徵訂、持有、對價取得、存取、散開物品、電子紀錄之權利、購買、買賣無正當理由持有兒少之性影像、擴大兒少性剝削的行為、胎兒等本部競表尊重。"},{"start":4370.66,"end":4394.355,"text":"第二、委員建議修正網路業者應於二十四小時內先行限制瀏覽或移除與第四章犯罪有關之網頁資料、網頁犯罪情節重大或曾遭限制接取者得即時強制限制接取等規定。本部見表尊重。第三、委員建議"},{"start":4395.636,"end":4416.638,"text":"二、徵並重置罪、購買兒童或少年之性影像罪、支付兌價關攬性影像罪,並提高刑責或罰金。本部見表尊重。第四、委員建議徵並將購買犯兒童或少年之性影像罪者"},{"start":4419.001,"end":4443.678,"text":"關懶兒童或少年性將罪者納入輔導教育的對象,本部竟表尊重。五、委員建議徵定行為隱私與身心治療部分,考量第二條所定的兒童及少年性剝削犯罪行為太陽多樣,都是行為隱私因為認知扭曲且與性侵害犯罪本質"},{"start":4445.399,"end":4473.464,"text":"指的是以暴力等方式違反被害人意願侵害其性自主權有別。原針對以強暴、脅迫等手段拍攝、自行拍攝或製造兒童及少年性影像之行為人,評估有無身心治療必要,兼評估有治療必要及治療的實役者,再另起接受身心治療,本部見表尊重。"},{"start":4474.324,"end":4492.19,"text":"第六、委員建議延長網路業者保留犯罪資料的實現,延長被害人輔導、處遇及追蹤期限,各目的事業主管機關全責事項,橫著實務執行尚無至愛難行之處,這一部分建議維持現行條文。"},{"start":4497.532,"end":4511.579,"text":"第七、委員建議徵訂犯罪資料庫、檢證單位執行加害人登記報告、查訪及查閱兒童及少年性剝削防制教育課程的時事。"},{"start":4514.74,"end":4532.025,"text":"公布行為文的姓名及照片、境外犯罪、司法附註、組織、刑事、犯本條例之罪、加重即刑等部分,因視涉司法院、法務部、內政部警政署及教育部的權管業務,予以尊重尚開機關的意見。"},{"start":4534.266,"end":4559.254,"text":"第八,至於多數委員針對拍攝、製造、散布、無正當理由持有或購買、支付對價關攬兒少性影響者以及其他第四章之罪提高其刑法及罰金部分、事涉刑事量刑橫平性的問題,予以尊重司法機關的意見。"},{"start":4561.515,"end":4588.576,"text":"為防制世衛性暴力犯罪、防制兒少招性剝削、遏止兒少性影像散佈等犯刑。本部秉持林岱樺的態度,未來供續透過部會網絡合作建構防護網。本部曾答應各委員之指教及監督,在此見之切成,敬其各委員繼續予以支持。"},{"start":4591.701,"end":4592.965,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4599.52,"end":4621.277,"text":"跟說明資料請大家參閱有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入記錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告那因為這個專案我們其實已經排過兩次的專報今天主要是以法案審查為主所以本會委員詢答時間五分鐘列席委員四分鐘"},{"start":4622.273,"end":4636.728,"text":"十點半截止法院登記。委員若有書面質詢,請於三會前提出。預期不受理。暫定十點三十分,休息五分鐘。依往例審查法案不除依往例"},{"start":4637.335,"end":4639.516,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4661.09,"end":4661.75,"text":"主席。有請部長。"},{"start":4692.176,"end":4692.737,"text":"請部長。在我第一次跟您質詢的時候,那時候是為了要價要砍價。"},{"start":4703.57,"end":4725.568,"text":"然後這個當中您做了很多的反質詢那我告訴您說我從健保署開辦民國84年到我的校期及任期時到明年2月總共有30年的這個聘書歷經四位總統那我跟你討論要價的時候您跟我講了一句話那時候大概是29年多您跟我說我29年來都是錯的"},{"start":4727.918,"end":4754.599,"text":"所以部長我今天有兩個方式讓你做選擇第一個你要收回這句話還是你要收回我30年的從衛福部發出來的聘書請你做選擇聘書是無從去收回啦那至於我說的話是否是正確還是錯我們大家都可以來做討論啦你要收回這句話嗎你說我29年都是錯你要收回這句話嗎"},{"start":4755.659,"end":4772.495,"text":"這可以大家來討論什麼要討論就是你說的你反質詢我最後一張告訴你怎麼投資不足投資不足然後管理失當包括這個分級醫療沒有落實以藥養醫你說叫我拿出證據部長我再告訴你區區的衛福部醫院你怎麼管理的好第一張"},{"start":4781.731,"end":4799.822,"text":"這麼基本的衛福部26家醫院第一個賴在副總統承諾內閣單一性別不低於三分之一雖然他也是大跳票我們來檢視你的這個衛福部醫院好院長的比例是24比2男比女是24比2這兩個25、20還借其認滿搞不好你都換成男生就是26比0副院長是29比3部長台灣一屆沒有女性人才嗎請說"},{"start":4810.667,"end":4827.979,"text":"在過去那在因為院長、院長、副院長過去尤其是院長他是負責醫師所以他一定都是有醫師來做。因為過去早期的時候那男性的醫師是占多數女性醫師是比較少的。"},{"start":4828.507,"end":4830.468,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4858.732,"end":4878.435,"text":"那都是要臨選的。沒有!因為聘副院長沒有臨選。就是院內自己聘,你也允許。外部部、官網上都有張貼。你怎麼管你的?毫無章法!下一張。部長、院長重不重要?外部部院長重不重要?請問什麼時候要代理?什麼時候要進行代理?"},{"start":4879.448,"end":4905.364,"text":"好,代理當然是一個過渡期啊。好,過渡期,好,停在這裡。代理時間過長是不是好事情?當然不是好事情。好,不是好事情,我們上去查。因為網站上有很多沒有歷任院長之後,我就先排除。那我找得到的部分,部長請你看一下。嗯。代理六個月、六個月、六個月。有關嘉義跟岐山我還可以理解,因為偏遠地區嘛。也許未必有人想去。好,那嘉義有一任代理有12個月。"},{"start":4907.421,"end":4928.295,"text":"院長,我知道所有的院長為什麼臨,是做得很好,因為知道院期這個院長任期屆滿的時候,前兩個月就進行臨選,那有些時候是到期才去臨選,所以就會到代理,我發現代理,好,代理是越短越好對不對,因為要無縫接軌對不對,院長這麼重要,好我們看下一張。"},{"start":4930.792,"end":4959.21,"text":"衛福部桃園醫院2022年7月徐祐年院長介林任期滿,留了22個月的時間給誰?22個月,22個月代理期,第一個醫院沒有人才嗎?第二個,沒有人想去這個最肥養的地方嗎?這個最牆下最大的醫院嗎?第三,這個代理院長不夠格嗎?既然代理22個月,為什麼不直接升他?"},{"start":4960.919,"end":4985.5,"text":"因為...部長今天答案已經出來了我本來以為今天早上答案還沒有出來王必勝院長、王必勝市長需不需要把這個位置空了22個月等他自己過去?這沒有沒有?沒有他不去當院長嗎?據我所知他...他沒有要去當院長,好我們等著看他是不是跟我講沒有我們等著看今天報紙已經出來了一個人居然可以為人設事堂堂公家醫院22個月"},{"start":4988.634,"end":4991.966,"text":"荷原醫院22個院沒有正式院長,是代理院長!"},{"start":4993.376,"end":5018.125,"text":"那個時候是因為要準備...好!我們等著看!你說沒有!部長說沒有!我們大家等著看!等著看!好!外福部!基隆醫院!基隆醫院不要把它當八卦!我是藥學專家!基隆醫院裡面是一連串的問題!在過敏史的地方!過敏是非常重要!是規定放在病歷的首頁!過敏史誰可以填?這個是非常重要!因為過敏反應可能會致死的!"},{"start":5020.026,"end":5036.081,"text":"醫師在診間,病人告訴他過敏,做確認才能填入。第二個,可能住院病人護理師發現他有問題,所以他要跟臨床藥師或醫師確認才能夠填入。這個是非常重要,填入就不能更改。第一個,這是一件事。第二個,醫師開處方,這個小朋友六歲。"},{"start":5037.162,"end":5046.028,"text":"一、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":5062.799,"end":5063.339,"text":"接下來我們請陳金輝委員發言"},{"start":5098.91,"end":5103.778,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位觀眾。那我也請薛部長,謝謝。好,請薛部長。委員好。部長早。"},{"start":5111.109,"end":5137.293,"text":"最近因為新聞事件嘛,所以大家對於社安網、社福等等的都非常非常重視,全民也很關心。知道說馬政府從2012年1月就修正了社會福利政策綱領。去年呢,立法院也三讀通過,規定政策綱領至少每五年都需要檢討一次。請問部長你知道我們這個綱領已經多久沒有更新了嗎?"},{"start":5140.68,"end":5155.198,"text":"這個應該是有歷次,但是因為之前的話我不是那麼清楚。社會福利基本法的草案三讀應該不是在去年的事情,所以還沒有到五年。"},{"start":5157.159,"end":5175.379,"text":"我這邊給您正確答案正確答案是長達12年沒有更新了大家知道說科技犯罪、網路犯罪、手機犯罪而且關於社安、社福像最近我們很關注的這些新影片許多需要跨國的合作"},{"start":5177.22,"end":5197.666,"text":"全球各大型社會福利的國際論壇組織越來越多不管是參與或是像我們有在配合的聯合國兒童權利公約等等這些我們都宣示說我們會跟聯合國站在一起但是我們的社會福利綱領仍然停留在十年前沒有與時俱進"},{"start":5199.583,"end":5225.342,"text":"跟委員報告,這社會福利政策綱領涵蓋的範圍是非常大的。雖然這裡可能是時間,未更新的時間是比較長,但是個別的身心障礙、兒童權利、長期照顧等等這些都有定期在...去年我們三讀通過,說每五年要修正,您想要把它留給下一任?就還沒到五年。"},{"start":5226.434,"end":5228.815,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":5244.204,"end":5267.47,"text":" bicycliffe 跟聯合國兒童權利公約也有一個網站做得很漂亮也給全民來看好我們這個兒少國家行動計畫啦聯合國的委員來我們要給他審查嗎我們也要給他評鑑好我們裡面喔有澳洲的有印度的有烏干達的都有喔你都放進去了可是台灣是"},{"start":5268.65,"end":5270.933,"text":"已經兩年了還沒做出來你2022年跟聯合國的委員說我們會全力配合跟國際接軌結果我們把別的國家放進去我不知道這個網站是"},{"start":5283.202,"end":5309.349,"text":"但是我們每年在做這個CRC的review的時候都有做出來一些報告所以雖然也許沒有這所謂的這個全面行動計畫這樣子的名稱但是對CRC的落實OK所以我們要跟這些聯合國的評鑑委員說雖然我們交不出這個我們本來承諾你的行動計畫報告但是我們有很多替代的施政計畫是這個意思嗎?"},{"start":5313.632,"end":5318.696,"text":"可以這麼說,就是說其實是我們有整體性的對於CRC的落實。"},{"start":5320.906,"end":5325.851,"text":"接下來我們要討論一下其實這個是非常非常多台灣目前年輕人關心的事情我們對於貧窮線的定義這個"},{"start":5341.687,"end":5345.071,"text":"日本、韓國貧窮率15至16%,台灣目前的貧窮率只有1.3%,遠低於學者及民團所估計的11%,中間有220萬人口的差距。所以衛福部申請"},{"start":5359.609,"end":5384.508,"text":"厲收跟中低收入戶裡面他們的通過率只有45%所以表示有大於一半其實真正很貧窮的人是被排除在外的團體指出說因為社會救助法本身對於低收入、中低收入過於嚴苛那請問這個4月22號提出的社會救助法草案願版您覺得您可以去改善我們貧窮率的問題嗎?"},{"start":5386.189,"end":5397.343,"text":"有一個部分會做改善,但是現在我們這個社會救助法已經修正的草案已經到一個程度了。"},{"start":5401.627,"end":5416.416,"text":"已經準備要做預告了啦那預告之後我們還會再收集各界的一些意見那最後定案的話這邊是許許多多民團還有學者反映的其實呢有一個大家很重視的"},{"start":5417.176,"end":5434.18,"text":"您沒有把它考慮進去就是不列記為同居共財親屬的收入與資產我們有很多已經離開家鄉的年輕人他們可能在外地租屋可是呢現在房東如果要寄放戶籍"},{"start":5434.72,"end":5437.161,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":5457.811,"end":5485.991,"text":"所以針對這方面我想要幫他們說話為什麼不將為同居共產用實際狀況來認列呢?這部分當然都可以來做討論那本來就是社救法是依這個戶為單位那這個戶是戶及戶還是說居住地這個都可以做討論那它各有利弊但是你的草案已經快要預告了是沒有放入這個欸"},{"start":5487.072,"end":5508.043,"text":"對阿所以現在已經預告了啦我剛剛修正一下現在已經在預告當中那這未來會是用什麼樣的方式來做因為他各有做修改這也許到了立法院大家還可以再討論希望部長之後可以聽聽實際狀況這些貧窮人的聲音"},{"start":5511.845,"end":5528.503,"text":"這個當然都是一個因素,但是要去做整體的法制上面的一個規定的話,有時候執行上面也會有一些困難。接下來我們請林月琴委員發言"},{"start":5539.312,"end":5568.469,"text":"好,有請我們的部長,還有我們的內政部警政署的副組長,還有我們司法院家事廳我們的謝敬輝廳長。好,以上官員請上台。好,委員啦。部長辛苦了齁。那,嗯,針對於齁,因為我認為今天如果入監罰得再重,如果沒有人去抓的話,罰五萬也沒有用啦齁。所以我剛剛講創意私房十年了齁,促進空間也是九年之後,"},{"start":5569.048,"end":5573.691,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":5598.266,"end":5603.391,"text":"而不是明定清除。那執行一年,你覺得這些其他部會配合的狀況如何?"},{"start":5606.966,"end":5631.677,"text":"說實在,這中間的訊息傳遞等等,或者是說對個案整體去做處理的速度還是有一點弱。對,所以我就看到警察局接貨報案的時候到底有沒有通知影像中心,就我知道有些時候是沒有的。那有時候衛福部發文的時候有沒有通知數位速發部處理,而且"},{"start":5632.417,"end":5651.337,"text":"網路犯罪的時候到底是誰的責任?就大家都有責任,好像最後就是大家沒有責任。所以我知道部長如果把它定清楚的話,對我覺得主管機關是不是會更有幫助?應該是會有一部分的幫助啦。"},{"start":5652.881,"end":5676.537,"text":"因為我覺得前面如果不阻斷的話,你後邊罰的再重。就像我剛剛講,路肩罰五萬塊,如果沒有人去抓的話,那五萬塊事實上形同虛設啦。那一樣的,當初方向上也看得到是說,訂了這麼多主管機關,大家都可以網路內容防護機構或主管機關或警察單位或其他機關都可以去做。最後呢,就是人人都有責任,可是卻沒有人負責。"},{"start":5677.458,"end":5682.912,"text":"所以我希望這邊還是主管機關自己扛起責任來。我不知道部長這樣有沒有什麼太大的問題。"},{"start":5684.61,"end":5711.446,"text":"這是等於是一個通知啦。主管機關知道有的話,那要去先做這一些,就是說委員建議的是這樣。但是事實上有時候這個發現,發現者,那也就是說民眾也許有檢舉,檢舉的對象不一定直接是到衛福部來啦。"},{"start":5712.193,"end":5733.036,"text":"是,所以有的時候在警政單位,可是我覺得還是由主管機關來去做這件事情。而問題二,大概就是整個案件偵查的資源不足,處處碰壁,因為沒錢沒人沒專責單位,沒溝通沒共享沒決心,因為為什麼警政單位碰到的,所以我們的修法方向是這樣。"},{"start":5733.656,"end":5733.916,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":5756.998,"end":5782.964,"text":"閱讀者提供的資料庫,因為衛福部事實上是做不到,因為警政單位才有權限,衛福部沒有。譬如說這影像當中有車號或者是有些姓名,那你們要去查核的話事實上是相對比較容易,可是在這邊你們回覆的是我在提出這個的時候你們說沒有辦法。不過國外已經有這樣的技術,想當初黃子椒這個案子事實上是一萬多筆查扣之後,是你們"},{"start":5783.844,"end":5805.283,"text":" 警員很熱心的警員一筆一筆人工再對才對出有欺騙的未成年那他過去是有查創意私房他才有辦法知道去做這樣的查了他有印象所以為什麼要有專責單位可是今天警員正署竟然會講說沒有辦法河安已經有這樣的一個技術在"},{"start":5805.503,"end":5805.843,"text":"議員,請問一下警政署這邊"},{"start":5829.002,"end":5829.042,"text":"好的。"},{"start":5856.701,"end":5878.758,"text":"全憲事實上你們比衛福部有權限去做一些比對跟查核啦所以才會期待是不是最後就是司法院就是我不知道就我們在提出三日內影像已經移除之後為了完備的法律程序裡邊那司法院這邊回覆的是說沒辦法那我不知道我們的謝廷長這邊"},{"start":5880.953,"end":5881.494,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5893.345,"end":5917.188,"text":"對那個部分跟委員說明一下因為如果說要讓法院去就這個部分去下一個緊急的資訊的限制令那我們是考量到說像這樣這個部分按照之前的兒少性剝削防制條例大概都是行政先行對行政先行可是不會你們講什麼緩步不及急已經先所謂的停止解析之後才三日再補程序這有困難嗎"},{"start":5918.52,"end":5944.099,"text":"主要就是說如果說要用法院去做這樣的一個資訊的一個限制令通常在目前的體系上面大家都會跟人身自由有相關的因為上次質詢的時候我們的部長也我們衛福部薛部長說他們當時事實上請速發部去做停止解析的時候實在坦白講事實上法律程序不完備所以我們再補一條不知道為什麼司法院這邊會有覺得"},{"start":5945.998,"end":5948.199,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5961.325,"end":5962.306,"text":"接下來我們請廖偉祥委員質詢。"},{"start":6003.939,"end":6006.585,"text":"謝謝主席,有請薛部長。好,請薛部長。"},{"start":6011.38,"end":6029.455,"text":"委員好部長好今天是兒少性剝削法的法案的答詢那在進行這個修法討論之前我想請教部長因為我國在2014年的時候有將這個兒童權利公約CRC的國內法化那在2017年跟2022年的時候在國際審查時國際審查委員也曾就"},{"start":6033.378,"end":6058.712,"text":"這個針對兒少性剝削相關的議題要求我國政府將關於買賣兒童、兒童賣淫和兒童色情問題之兒童權利公約認責議定書國內法劃,並在結論性的時候意見也明確指出,建議我們的政府要制定一個綜合性的政策包括CRC一般性原則的執行以防止對兒少的買賣及性剝削。"},{"start":6059.733,"end":6082.794,"text":"那在2022年的時候的第二次國際審查時這個監察院的人權會也已建議政府針對關於買賣兒童跟兒童賣淫的這幾個事情的這個權利公約日的議定書進行國家整體性的政策盤點然後並鼓勵我們的政府接受這個議定書那想要請教部長2022年"},{"start":6084.335,"end":6110.137,"text":"第二次的國際審查到現在也過了一年多了。現在我們這個OPSC的立法進度為何?這個其實我們雖然沒有一個叫做這一個這個什麼什麼議定書的什麼國內就是說沒有一個這樣的名字但是事實上他的國內法法就是在這個兒童性剝削的防制條例啦"},{"start":6110.894,"end":6115.851,"text":"是我想沒有錯就是我們現在有這個條例在做但是我想要講的事情是在這個"},{"start":6117.432,"end":6130.302,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第五條、第三十九條及第六十一條條文修正草案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第六十一條條文修正草案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第六十一條條文修正草案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第六十一條條條文修正草案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性�"},{"start":6144.054,"end":6148.174,"text":"防範未來的引渡問題,就是防範這些罪犯在逃去國外,"},{"start":6149.512,"end":6173.885,"text":"這個部分第一個把它國內法化我們現在已經做就是兒童、兒少性剝削條例但是引渡那是另外一個司法互助的問題司法互助的問題如果有關於引渡的話必須有國跟國之間的一個簽訂的一個合作的一個意願那引渡跟司法互助又有一些程度上面的不太一樣"},{"start":6174.762,"end":6197.481,"text":"當然,但是這條這個議定書裡面其實有寫到,反正如果我們提早把這個法制作業做好,我們是不是比較有機會跟...委員知道說我們國家在這一個全世界在這個正式的國際的一些關係上面的話的一些困難。那關於引渡可能事務委員問一下法務部會更清楚一點。"},{"start":6198.462,"end":6216.037,"text":"好,那我們下一題。請問部長,到目前為止有沒有收到WHA今年的正式邀請函?目前還沒有。那部長今年有哪一些國家已經表態願意希望幫助我們台灣恢復在世界衛生的大會裡面的觀察人地位?"},{"start":6217.157,"end":6240.451,"text":"有一些國家它已經正式的由他們的官方來提出他們的這個態度。這些國家仍然在增加當中。目前我沒有全部都掌握住,因為這個是外交部也在努力在做的一個事情。"},{"start":6240.95,"end":6258.761,"text":"好我想部長這裡美國國會一向也支持我們加入包括2019年2022年的眾議院2021年的參議院他們都有透過法案表態支持我國加入但是今年呢今年美方有沒有任何的具體行動或是對於外公開的宣稱希望我國可以加入"},{"start":6260.425,"end":6286.096,"text":"我所掌握到的到目前好像還沒有一個非常正式用法案來做支持的這樣子的狀態不過這可能外交部會比較清楚所以我是想部長因為當一天和尚橋田中我想這WHA跟我們衛福部也是有相當大的關係所以我是希望這部分您是不是可以持續的積極的再去推動再來部長"},{"start":6288.017,"end":6308.572,"text":"準總統賴清德具有醫師背景,所以他也是第一位醫師總統,能不能參加這個WHA對我們的象徵意義也很大。我們立法院韓院長也請我們的江副院長帶隊參加,就是希望能夠把我國的民意帶進萬國宮。請教部長,今年和往年你們宣達活動會有沒有什麼不一樣的地方嗎?"},{"start":6310.603,"end":6331.011,"text":"宣打的活動的方式可能差異並沒有說很大,但是內容會有一些不一樣。請問會有什麼不一樣?這個內容主要就是說因為今年WHA主要要討論一個叫做Pandemic Agreement,也就是說防疫的一個大的一個協議。"},{"start":6335.355,"end":6348.447,"text":"這個協議今年可能是WHA希望就能夠通過的。在這個協議的裡面有一個部分叫做可以除了會員國之外的話,可以設觀察員。"},{"start":6349.648,"end":6378.322,"text":"那我們希望在這部分WHA的觀察員我們努力也是在能仍然在爭取但是對這個pandemic agreement的觀察員我們另外要希望能夠爭取因為這個跟全球的防疫有相關的台灣可以貢獻這方面的力量好 謝謝部長最後一個很快速的問題原理任期大約剩下20天請問你有沒有具體的事項在這20天你可以完成的舉個例"},{"start":6379.663,"end":6392.693,"text":"今天的這一個我需要就是在20歲份內能夠完成。好,謝謝。所以謝謝部長。希望今天可以完成,讓變成你的畢業代表作。謝謝。謝謝。好,謝謝廖偉祥委員。接下來我們請劉建國委員質詢。謝謝主席。有請部長。好,請部長。"},{"start":6411.84,"end":6417.057,"text":"委員黃部長的能力畢業代表說應該不只這一項,我有再多加幾項給你。"},{"start":6418.956,"end":6443.186,"text":"我先來講一下背景資料好不好就今天委員會招來排這個兒童性剝削的條例那我想本法在這個行之達10年以上的僅33條的第二項那意圖盈利以強暴、脅迫、恐嚇、監控等等等違反其他違反本人意願之方法使兒童及少年有對價之性交或猥褻行為者"},{"start":6443.886,"end":6463.519,"text":"我要講國內跟國外相關的一些背景資料,給部長也給在座的法院、司法院、法務部、警政署相關單位。本法在7年以上的刑者共有33條、34條、35條、36條。然後事實上在去年我們在立院,也一樣在這個委員會,有針對兒少性剝削條例進行大修。"},{"start":6467.98,"end":6493.11,"text":"行政院版本針對三十五條將招募引誘農人、媒介、農友、協助、利用或其他或以他劃時而受性交違憲之行為以工人、關攬者從一年以上、七年以下調高為三年以上、十年以下尤其徒刑的併顧額減三百萬。這個大概在去年修法中也是刑律條例最高的一條。"},{"start":6494.21,"end":6511.901,"text":"但是法官修完一年後,我們又拿出來要大修了。所以那一年我們到底做了什麼事情?這個是讓我們要很慎重的思考,不只是行政機關,不然我們相關的委員同事。也就是說這個是很難見的事情。"},{"start":6517.211,"end":6537.697,"text":"對我們的修法與人民期待是不是有蠻大的落差嗎?那也甚至於說目前去年度的修法完成之後,其實沒有辦法達到任何的嚇阻的這個效果,所以今天我們才必須再來審查這個法案。那我要講這個是我們國內的一個背景資料,講國外。"},{"start":6538.417,"end":6563.153,"text":"英國一位28歲工程師他架設相關網站,在英國被判刑入獄16年,同時被終身列為性犯罪者的名冊。在監獄胡滿後,還得進行4年的社區服刑,兩個家種是20個年度的刑期。另外美國是針對兒少性剝削,他的天花板最高可達到20年。"},{"start":6565.493,"end":6580.68,"text":"這個應該大家都知道啦,對台灣的這個行者是真的還有蠻大的一個差距,這是國外。那我想台灣的法律的一個現狀又有一句話叫做什麼?叫做有錢破身啦,沒有錢破死啦。"},{"start":6581.8,"end":6604.775,"text":"現在進行是,部長跟市長可以看這個例子嗎?我們針對黃紫嬌這個案子,如果依照現行法律規定,單純持有未成年性影像,法定行為一年以下有期徒刑,那檢察官以被告為初犯且坦承犯罪,說要少女隱私與權利保障本罪的刑度,被告願意支付120萬的緩起訴金,而違緩起訴並無輕重。"},{"start":6611.529,"end":6615.468,"text":"這個是警察機關。那不僅如此,不然再看"},{"start":6616.497,"end":6644.545,"text":"這個是從庫果裡面隨便撈出來就這樣啦齁。這近年來。紅十七歲的女網友拍裸照還騙上傳,男護理師和解陪長青或緩刑。然後引誘三高中少女拍不咬照片,男大生和解輕判緩刑四年。台中男大生利誘少年拍裸照,表弟也不忘過,和解或判緩刑。男與衛生連性行為還看私密影像,判兩年緩刑三年。"},{"start":6645.285,"end":6670.718,"text":"那幼少女自拍裸露照片論罪和解賠錢招判一年七個月,緩刑三年。瓦斯宮幼少年去廁所拍照給我,向家長求老,賠兩萬,或判緩刑。這是現狀。現在進行是有一半生,沒一半死。所以我們在"},{"start":6671.403,"end":6695.941,"text":"在委員會所有的委員跟所有的相關的機關把相關的行者在上一次修法大大提高之後,得到的這樣的一個效益是這樣,結果是這樣。我要提問這個是等一下在修法過程裡面是可以讓大家做一個參考的。所以我想這個我們覺得真的不能因為有錢,這個兒少性剝削就這麼樣的去處理嘛。"},{"start":6698.188,"end":6724.475,"text":"我們在臺灣不應該這個事情再發生我覺得我們必須要提高整個這個兒童性剝削條例的行者然後在實際上的執行面到底應該怎麼處理讓他可以去這個國際零容忍這個標準這是讓大家的智慧共同來做這樣的一個思考所以我把這些事情講出來因為一個五分鐘時間很近最後一件事情"},{"start":6725.39,"end":6737.345,"text":"在這次眾多版本中有人要提到公開犯罪人的姓名、資料我想不然不只薛部長還是黃部長涉嫌的意見是什麼等一下討論會提到但是有個重點"},{"start":6740,"end":6761.775,"text":"我們在性侵害犯罪防治法 其中二十九條規定中央檢證主管機關應兼任加害人相片、指紋、去氧、核糖、核酸、記錄及個人基本資料。但是目前就僅性侵害加害人建立資料,所以我要在這邊很具體的建議,要有一個性犯罪的資料庫。"},{"start":6765.133,"end":6790.503,"text":"現犯罪資料庫包含性剝削等等等這些,在國外早已經有這麼做。就剛剛我講的第二個英國的這個案例,這一個工程師也被他們國家列為性犯罪的名冊之內就對了。所以我希望,那公務部當然有公布一個叫做家庭暴力及性侵害電子資料庫的管理使用辦法,那僅辦法而已啦。"},{"start":6792.048,"end":6817.854,"text":"所以以部長的經驗、以部長的法律的素養,是不是在委員之前,我可以這邊具以建議嗎?你可以來啟動這個修法研議的機制的一個作為嗎?我們現在就是在修法,但是只針對的是兒少性剝削條例。剛剛委員提到的是整個性暴力、性侵害犯罪的,那這個部分的話可能也要"},{"start":6818.55,"end":6835.846,"text":"跟法務部這邊一起來討論一下。當然要請部長邀請他們來做看怎樣討論,但是我是說在5年之前,這個事情如果部長覺得我提供這樣的訊息,提供這樣的一個國內的病人資料是有道理的,是不是可以由你來主動的。"},{"start":6837.269,"end":6857.206,"text":"因為如果是只有針對兒少的話,我們這一次修法的過程當中,如果大家同意就可以把他放進來了嘛。這一個禮拜要做。我的建議是這樣,是具體將性犯罪者要做一個統整啦。對。做一個統整齁,同時在緩和中也是可以明文禁止性犯罪者改名等行為嘛。"},{"start":6857.606,"end":6882.537,"text":"所以它不是一個辦法就可以去解決啦。我的意思就是說,如果針對兒少性剝削,對兒少的這個部分的話,我們這一次修法,把它放進去是有機會的,在520之前把它完成。但是如果是要把所有的這種性犯罪、性侵害犯罪的話,可能520之前大概做不到。最起碼讓部長來啟動嘛,開始來討論了嘛,可以嗎?"},{"start":6886.125,"end":6912.947,"text":"這我們可以來討論看看。好,謝謝主席。接下來我們請黃國昌委員進行質詢。好,謝謝主席。麻煩有請衛福部的部長、法務部的代表以及司法院的代表。好,我們請以上官員上台。委員好。"},{"start":6923.786,"end":6942.276,"text":"時間的關係我不一一問候,上一次質詢的時候處理有關於兒童及少年性剝削防制條例的問題我點出來了,實務上面的問題可能需要衛福部、法務部跟司法院大家一起坐下來好好談清楚那這件事情發生了沒有?目前還沒有什麼時候會發生?"},{"start":6945.051,"end":6948.553,"text":"請你針對問題回答我上次質詢要求的是三個部門坐下來談這件事情部長說還沒有發生我現在的問題是什麼時候會發生還是永遠不會發生"},{"start":6966.584,"end":6972.866,"text":"我個人是贊成但更重要的事情是什麼?實務上面到底是怎麼在操作的?"},{"start":6996.345,"end":7012.026,"text":"要讓大家看得清楚現實否則的話這樣子的條文再修過一次剛剛已經有委員講了上一次修提高限度顯然沒有效果否則我們今天不會在這邊齊聚一堂針對同樣的問題再次要提修法"},{"start":7013.087,"end":7037.734,"text":"我簡單請教一下部長我們目前就有關於不管是製造還是散播兒少性影像的罰則從衛福部的立場來講會不會覺得法定性過低?呃...持有著這一個部分啦其他的部分呢?你覺得OK?應該是...我當然這還是要由法務部這邊來去...來請法務部"},{"start":7042.689,"end":7067.055,"text":"報告委員,我們目前看現行的法條是跟這個我們刑法的防害秘密、防害性隱私跟不實影像罪的這些刑度來相比較。目前看起來當初可能應該都有設想到它的橫平性跟比例性。剛剛齁,你講到一個重點嘛,就是討論所謂的橫平性。討論橫平性這件事情我贊成啊。"},{"start":7068.435,"end":7090.748,"text":"當問題是什麼?當問題是當我們整個刑事處罰上面整個全部都是偏低的所謂全部偏低的是我們如果有個法定刑不如一年以上七年以下三年以上十年以下五年以上十二年以下我們審判實務上面全部都是最低的刑度開始往上加我的理解正不正確"},{"start":7092.698,"end":7117.922,"text":"這個要看個案判斷好!我等一下馬上給你看個案喔!法律人啊!在國會殿堂就講實話啦!法律人在國會殿堂就講實話啦!來我進一步請教一徒盈利犯前二項之罪依各該條項的規定加重其刑之二分之一加重是怎麼加重的?例如說六月以上五年以下有期徒刑加重最低刑度是多少?"},{"start":7119.363,"end":7124.55,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7136.13,"end":7157.894,"text":"來先說,跟委員說明,那我們因為現在的法律規定加重至二分之一,因為這個至,所以事務上穩定的見解是認為說最高刑度最高可以提到二分之一。我剛剛在問的是最低。最低刑度有加重即可。有加重即可嘛。這件事情你要告訴所有的立法委員啊。"},{"start":7159.568,"end":7185.527,"text":"加重期刑之二分之一是最低刑度六個月只要有加七個月開始就可以了嘛所有法官在量刑的時候都是從最低開始做的嘛這個審判的實務要讓所有的立法委員知道嗎要不然大家拼了命的在搞那個最高刑度有什麼用在審判實務上到底造成什麼衝擊啊來我帶大家看一下這個是美國法兒少性剝削的"},{"start":7186.565,"end":7213.737,"text":"僱用、勸說、引誘、兒少、製造性影像出犯15年以上、30年以下如果有一次性犯罪的前科第二次再犯25年以上、50年以下如果有兩次性犯罪的前科第三次犯35年以上無期徒刑如果在這個過程當中導致人家死亡的話死刑無期徒刑30年以上有期徒刑這是美國立法者的立法技術"},{"start":7215.117,"end":7237.543,"text":"如果是散播販賣意圖販賣而持有兒少的現影像出犯五年以上、二十年以下有一次前科十五年以上、四十年以下這個是人家的立法技術他在處罰的是什麼要徹底的保護兒少避免受到數位性暴力、性剝削人家是這樣在幹的"},{"start":7239.185,"end":7268.127,"text":"來看一下我國的審判實務長成什麼樣子來我以具體的例子我不跟你們談抽象的問題我以具體的例子有一個性侵犯出獄了以後出獄了以後他繼續什麼仲介人家去旅館賣淫仲介人家去旅館賣淫以後這個是累犯喔仲介兩個女子到兩個不同的旅館去賣淫一個判六個月一個判四個月應執行有期徒刑八個月定執行刑嘛"},{"start":7269.619,"end":7296.731,"text":"一顆髮金一千元折算一天等於是繳多少錢這件事情就結束了繳八萬塊這件事情就結束了不要以為這樣就停止喔這樣的處罰對他有沒有嚇阻的效力我老實跟大家報告完全沒有嚇阻的效力所以他出來了以後繼續幹什麼把我們兒少的性影像上傳到網站台灣女學生智慧小女生脫衣服累犯"},{"start":7297.671,"end":7304.666,"text":"判多久?各處有期徒刑三個月一顆罰金均以一千元折算一致。所以總共罰多少錢?"},{"start":7306.687,"end":7332.553,"text":"總共罰多少錢?一個罪三萬塊解決搞到他什麼?墊本加厲越來越離譜再度誘使欺民而上製造性影像傳到網站上面去結果是用我們的刑法累犯來看怎麼加重的到第二審的時候三年以上有期徒刑法定刑的罪第一個未滿12歲的女童第二審判三年"},{"start":7333.513,"end":7361.081,"text":"第二個未滿16歲的少女三年四個月七個被害人加起來最後定職刑刑多少?四年。多一個被害人邊際效用不斷的降低。七個被害人喔!七個被害人定職刑什麼?四年。累犯加重加到哪裡去啊?就像剛行...剛司法院的法官講的啊有加重就好嘛!"},{"start":7362.572,"end":7387.396,"text":"這個是我們現在的刑事司法政策啊但我們要徹底反省的是什麼這樣的刑事司法政策是在保護被害人嗎還是在鼓勵加害人繼續幹繼續搞沒有關係啊我們的刑事司法體系對於這種一而再再而三放案的人是如此的寬容啊這是為什麼社會憤怒的原因啊部長同不同意"},{"start":7390.466,"end":7411.986,"text":"這的確是在實務上面如果是有這樣子的情形的話可能是社會上面比較不能...主席站起來吼相關的討論我們等一下進主條的時候我們一件一件來一對這是為什麼我要求衛福部、法務部跟司法院不要三個藝人一把號各吹各的調你們三個部門統合起來實踐的結果"},{"start":7414.13,"end":7441.149,"text":"就是我今天這個個案讓這個加害人哪裡有什麼警哪哪裡有任何的警惕哪裡有任何的意旨哪裡有任何的處罰這個體系是在鼓勵他你繼續搞沒有關係啊我們的司法體系對你很寬容啊但這個是社會可以忍受的嗎我可能拜託吼等一下進主條的時候三個部門三個部門的人要認真的面對這件事情謝謝"},{"start":7442.694,"end":7449.033,"text":"好 謝謝那等一下王育民委員質詢結束之後我們休息五分鐘接下來我們請林淑芬委員質詢"},{"start":7460.806,"end":7476.278,"text":"我已經連續三個禮拜在這裡談到說土法不足以自刑那這個禮拜日的《林和報》也做了幾篇報導其中有一個案子是徵選上臺大研究所的林和俊他誘騙了81名的少女自拍裸照等等"},{"start":7476.818,"end":7499.498,"text":"但是因為和解等理由法院針對81件的犯刑各判刑一年兩個月一年四個月累計81件受害者累計超過百年的刑期最後宣告執行的刑期是6年6年所以這個事情就是我們一直在講這個多麼的不成比例"},{"start":7499.878,"end":7520.99,"text":"不成比例是在這裡,包括當天聯合報報導說一名不亞片遭上網販售的少女說:「我的人生怎麼辦?能不能追回影片?」她是在九歲的時候被偷拍上網的新影像,流傳了多年仍然難以完全下架,她的長期的心理影響壓力幾乎崩潰。"},{"start":7523.251,"end":7547.965,"text":"那我們今天在講說其實這個司法輕重加害者讓受害者再被傷害這件事情非常嚴重而我們今天去年才大修今天又要來大修又要來加重到底是加多重我們今天要討論幾個面向是不是請我們這個法務部還有警政署好來請法務部警政署的代表上台"},{"start":7550.595,"end":7563.503,"text":"主席法務部一個參事警政署一個副組長這種層級也到立法院來這個真的是一個重視兒少性剝削防治法的這個防治條例的修法的層級嗎參事"},{"start":7567.438,"end":7579.47,"text":"我不知道怎麼問了。所以我告訴你,目前專責,我們依照法律,依照性剝削防制條例第五條,應該要設有專責人員,還要有來辦案。請問一下,"},{"start":7584.395,"end":7611.592,"text":"像去年整個違反這個兒童性剝削第36、39條等等的啦他的案件增加到2903件,現在專責人員足夠嗎?而且網路APP、社群社團、線上遊戲、手遊這麼多網路又拐又使拍攝性剝削影像的重要的這個問題這麼多,我們如果查緝有沒有補充人力的需要?人力夠不夠?"},{"start":7614.585,"end":7616.746,"text":"你知道嗎?這個警政署。謝謝委員。報告委員,我們現在專責偵辦的機關是在刑事局是由針酒大隊。我現在問你說人力夠不夠啦!我不是問你哪一個單位啦!我們依照法律各地方檢察署、警察機關都要指定專業訓練的專責人員辦理本條例事件欸!"},{"start":7643.254,"end":7664.006,"text":"到底這五年來,不管法務部或警政署,這五年來經過專業訓練的專責人員的人數大概有多少?你告訴我,你們有多少專責人員訓練過的?是,跟委員報告,我們只要是專責單位,甚至我們的這個分局的偵查對同人,我們都必須要受到...我現在問的是專責人員啊!是。我們分局都有專責的...全國有多少人啊?"},{"start":7671.73,"end":7676.199,"text":"我們總共有1500位這些都是我們定期會受專業訓練的專業 我在講專責人力專責"},{"start":7682.682,"end":7707.271,"text":"所以我們今天講說進傳媒有一篇報導他們就指出了台灣的警政機關卻沒有成立數位性犯罪的專責單位然後受害者去報出派出所或警局報案的經驗往往不佳警員也欠缺專業的知識輕忽案件的嚴重性而且現在大多數什麼你們專責人力一千多個不要再講了胡扯"},{"start":7707.791,"end":7734.777,"text":"各縣市的婦幼隊在辦理的居多啦,婦幼隊,也不是專責單位啦。謝謝委員。跟委員報告就是說,其實我們有考慮到被害人的臨近性,會在派出所來受理報案,但是我們的專責人員,包括我們的家防官以及分局的專責刑事人員,都會及時的介入相關的案件。專責還兼職,兼辦。"},{"start":7739.456,"end":7754.766,"text":"專責還是兼辦?你們有編制專責的嗎?不要在這裡硬拗了。警政署必須要整合附幼及科技人才,要成立專責單位。我們現在已經講到要成立專責單位了。所以在這裡我們是不是在請這個"},{"start":7758.243,"end":7760.784,"text":"警政署也必須整合附幼及科技專才,成立專責單位,而且要設置數位性暴力案件的全國資料庫。"},{"start":7782.247,"end":7803.233,"text":"因為他認為就是說性暴力他把影像犯罪者不會只有拍一兩部啦。報犯罪的手法多名受害者卻沒有被調查。很多的犯罪手法包括這個有沒有對價給錢的模式。其實一談一下都會發現說其實背後都是一個集團在製作。所以他們犯罪的手法然後人都有慣性。"},{"start":7804.813,"end":7831.661,"text":"所以用手的同樣的手法會一直用所以集中描繪就能知道是同一批人在做所以要成立全國資料庫你覺得呢如果說這個資料庫指的是對於這些有前科的犯罪的手法等等這樣子的內容的蒐集我覺得這有必要但是如果指的是現影像的資料庫這恐怕要不是啦這些這些"},{"start":7833.642,"end":7853.221,"text":"數位性暴力案件的全國資料庫找出背後的集團還有他們的模式化還有是不是同一批人不斷地在累犯然後再犯這樣子所以我再問一個就是說我們這幾年大家講創意私訪以外有沒有其他性犯罪產業的網站被破獲?好來檢警"},{"start":7860.078,"end":7887.274,"text":"因為都是慣性嘛,這個模式也會是類似的。依照警政署的統計,我們確實有其他相關的網站被查獲。我在講性犯罪產業網站拍攝兒少影像的組織還有沒有?報告有。啊,多少?大概有多少?比如說像觸感空間,其實也是我們在同一時間。對啦,我說多少件?"},{"start":7889.605,"end":7908.404,"text":"因為非常嚴重,你們到底是抓到過幾個?好,沒關係,到時候再問。來,我們再呈上一題,這個衛福部,請問部長,衛福部有沒有統計違反兒童性剝削條例,這個再犯率有多高?再犯率?"},{"start":7911.42,"end":7930.638,"text":"災害人的再犯率?這個部分是沒有去做統計的,我們只知道說當期有多少的案件這樣子。那我是不是要問這個,因為我們第51條裡面講說這個還起訴的啦,或者是被判有罪的,其實都要受這個輔導教育,知道嗎?但輔導教育到底有沒有用啊?"},{"start":7931.198,"end":7932.318,"text":"報告委員目前我們是沒有這樣的一個統計資料沒有"},{"start":7955.56,"end":7973.209,"text":"好,你們通通都沒有。我們為什麼講這個呢?法務部經常用還起訴、不起訴的處分率去縱放。然後司法院動輒就以刑法第五十九條裡面這個減輕期刑。那常常裁判的理由就是說他出犯了,期刑可免啊。但是你們沒有統計這個再犯率。"},{"start":7977.151,"end":7996.796,"text":"換言之,這個檢查部門他是緩起訴,但是他的輔導教育有沒有效,不知道。再犯率多高,不知道。然後就這樣繼續的輕放。然後這個有罪的也要上課,那上課有用嗎?也是沒有用啊。所以我們在這裡說,主管機關應該要進一步去檢視。"},{"start":7999.237,"end":8026.851,"text":"緩起訴、減輕期刑到底有沒有道理啊?老師說我們是覺得沒有道理啦所以主席允許我這個兩分鐘我做一個事情我現在講說我們從社工的視角就是去年的青少年犯罪防治研究期有一篇以社工人員當視角去討論就是說兒少性剝削私密影像案件的需求評估和處理困境的研究然後他們發現說流程上"},{"start":8028.632,"end":8055.903,"text":"在處理這個整個案件的通報還有這個受理還有這整個司法程序的過程裡面流程上應該減少受創的風險以關注兒少身心和隱私因為網路特性他的私密影片其實沒有辦法徹底根除很容易讓兒少陷入循環式的創傷當中所以他們訪問了七個社工員然後有兩個社工指出在第一線介入處遇服務的經驗裡面筆錄過程當中的指認"},{"start":8058.604,"end":8069.529,"text":"而讓兒少在社工人員、警方人員甚至在父母自己父母的面前卻去承認說是命一項就是我本人恐怕會讓兒少在製作筆錄當下感到甩甩不安而且對兒少來講可能會"},{"start":8074.731,"end":8077.752,"text":"此事為加深其對事件更為嚴重的創傷的風險。此事為加深其對事件更為嚴重的創傷的風險。此事為加深其對事件更為嚴重的創傷的風險。此事為加深其對事件更為嚴重的創傷的風險。"},{"start":8097.72,"end":8121.027,"text":"而避免這個兒少心理在受創傷當成包庇加害者的理由這個也都是很荒謬的事情但是雖然是當成包庇加害者的理由不過不要讓這個受害者心理在創傷這件事情真的是值得注意所以我們在今天列寫的各個單位不論是主責社工的衛福部"},{"start":8121.527,"end":8137.278,"text":""},{"start":8137.778,"end":8162.123,"text":"他們一輩子的傷,恐怕也是難以回復的一生,都要留下這個陰影的。好,我們進主條可以再繼續討論,謝謝林委員。那我們希望說,下一次我們主條的時候,你要給我看債範率,我們要看債範率,就知道政府導教育不好,過去重判,重判,而且土法不足以自省,檢審的專業,還有檢審的態度很重要。好,我們謝謝林委員。"},{"start":8166.584,"end":8192.337,"text":"好,接下來我們請陳俊宇委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。我們先請司法院跟法務部的代表。"},{"start":8194.329,"end":8196.565,"text":"請司法院及法務部代表上台。"},{"start":8204.36,"end":8224.708,"text":"好 謝謝今天我們要審查有關這個兒童及少年性剝削的防制條例的相關條文那我想不論是兒少遭受到性剝削或是私密影像在網路上的散佈都是不能夠忍受的也應該被積極的被嚇死那從今天各委員會所提供的這"},{"start":8226.208,"end":8240.803,"text":"則三十六案當中也可以看到,不管是對於拍攝還是散佈,無正當的理由持有或購買。兒少性影像者大多希望能夠提高刑法和罰金,來嚇止相關犯罪行為。"},{"start":8245.171,"end":8274.551,"text":"本席在這個兩週前司法法制委員會審查這個額內相關修法時質詢過我們法務部提到過相關的這個刑度加重法官不一定會判重的問題當時我們蔡次長回應不是再加重不加重的問題是法官敢不敢下手那不曉得我們今天司法院的代表對於這樣的看法您的認知是怎麼樣"},{"start":8276.252,"end":8296.786,"text":"報告委員我想對於這每個個案比如說今天我們在審兒少性剝削防制條例那這個方向上是朝就是加重刑罰那我想最主要目的其實要防制兒少性剝削尤其是數位暴力的這樣一個性隱私影像的維護這個方向司法院一直一直以來都是"},{"start":8298.426,"end":8323.433,"text":"因為司法院也是要去踐行兒童權利公約防制兒少被剝削,尤其在數位的時期。可是一直沒有看到作為?跟委員報告就是因為司法院其實尤其是我們在立法院備詢,那從司法行政的立場,那去讓每一個法官認識到兒少性剝削它的內涵跟它的重要性。那我們每年在法官學院大概都有強化這方面的課程。"},{"start":8323.993,"end":8344.77,"text":"那我們之前也有曾經希望能夠去完成這個就是良形的一個妥適良形法草案。那這部分等一下如果有需要的話,可以請主法官可以進一步說明。那我們從司法院這個112年的這個統計資料來看,我們違反兒少性剝削的案件,地方法院一審的裁判結果當中,"},{"start":8345.891,"end":8365.458,"text":"我們以最大宗的拍攝製造性交猥褻的這個物品罪來看,也就是兒少性剝削條例第36條所規範的範圍,在去年的這個324件裡頭,大概半數都是判一年到兩年以下的有期徒刑。"},{"start":8366.178,"end":8387.284,"text":"那以社會大眾在看,會覺得怎麼常常會有輕判的這種情況發生,能判到五年甚至十年的是少之又少。還是說我們這個兒童性剝削相關的案件實務上不容易重判?我想請教我們司法院的代表跟法務部的代表,你們的觀察是不是這樣子?"},{"start":8388.824,"end":8413.599,"text":"跟委員報告就是剛剛前面有委員也垂詢到這個部分因為每個個案經過檢察官起訴之後檢察官其實也會這個就求刑的部分也會提出一些檢察官的意見那法官會去進行這些刑法57條的這些量刑的各項的審酌的因子那所以我們才會希望能夠大院能夠盡快的針對我們的一個妥適量刑"},{"start":8414.179,"end":8414.199,"text":"議員林岱樺"},{"start":8444.7,"end":8460.179,"text":"法務部代表根委員報告據我們的觀察這個法官的良心通常就是參考他的情節的輕重就是刑法57條所列的事項他的動機、目的、手段還有他的犯後態度等等"},{"start":8460.595,"end":8483.894,"text":"而加上可能是這個刑責的他本身的法定刑的輕重還有過去法官對同樣的法定刑的罪責過去是怎麼判的這個一個參考所以可能會有一個這樣的一個參組還有包括公共利益的考量所以這樣的一個刑度的判斷"},{"start":8485.983,"end":8499.696,"text":"應該是還是看每個情節跟個案的狀況以上。那你們兩位會不會覺得說我們目前台灣的這個判例來講,跟國外來相比我們的判例這個刑責太輕了,會不會?"},{"start":8501.883,"end":8517.801,"text":"跟委員這個就是提供這樣的因為每個個案其實都不太一樣那譬如說行為人跟被害人之間是不是認識那或者是譬如說像我們的兒童性剝削裡面其實也有家人之間的那所以我覺得說每個個案情況是不同的"},{"start":8518.101,"end":8540.817,"text":"但是有一點是確定的就是我們對於兒少的這些權益的保護我們其實是做的真的是不夠那未來如果希望能夠透過這樣的一個修法那希望我們可以去對於這類型的不管是他的犯罪情況能夠有一個更科學的一個良心調查的一個專法那也就是妥協良心法希望也能夠早日的完成立法以上"},{"start":8541.638,"end":8567.342,"text":"好,本席還是認為我們臺灣目前的這個對於兒少性剝削的相關法則太輕了,還是有提高的這個必要。但是在修法之後法官在量刑上是不是能夠跟著提高我們尊重法官審判的獨立,但也期待修法能夠真正有效來嚇阻犯罪,我相信這才是我們大家所期待的一個目標。好,以上。"},{"start":8568.578,"end":8572.46,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請王振旭委員質詢謝謝主席有請薛部長好請薛部長"},{"start":8592.216,"end":8614.033,"text":"委員長好 隊長好今天的題目真的很沉重在開始今天相關的議題之前有一個部分還是請部長再確認一下就是有關於衛福部修正居家托育防治指引的部分因為這部分也提到說針對兒童個案的問題"},{"start":8616.794,"end":8633.78,"text":"憑依一年年發展遲緩,安置出兩童,三類全日托兒童,針對於兩類保母包括收視負擔重,稱有不當對待者之兩類保母,要從訪視頻率從四次提高至六次。"},{"start":8634.48,"end":8662.001,"text":"那如果依照現在的數據來看的話,到底有這個全入托統計的人數會差不多有多少?那目前我們這個居福中心防制人員的人力是否可以足夠來因應?做過這個部分的調理以後,能夠有足夠的人力,包括他們的教育訓練是否能夠迅速的提升?因為看起來5月1號就要上路,5月1號就是後天,是。"},{"start":8663.382,"end":8686.791,"text":"這部分是因為也有跟地方都討論過,一起開會做的決定。在人力方面的話,目前應該是經過這個地方的社會局確認的,所以應該是沒有問題。教育訓練的部分的話,事實上,"},{"start":8689.352,"end":8715.19,"text":"最重要的是我們還有一個工作要做就是要發展出來去訪視的時候的這個要對一些指引就一些check in list要看什麼樣的東西那這個部分的話會是更有效的一個教育訓練是我們希望能夠確實的落實不然的話到時候就很可惜增加這個人力可是沒辦法把事情做好"},{"start":8715.93,"end":8715.95,"text":"委員長"},{"start":8734.614,"end":8753.584,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人�"},{"start":8763.564,"end":8791.605,"text":"這部分我還分兩個,第一個我講的不是兩週內那個招標,是兩週內去完成招標的文件。完成招標文件出來之後的話,那接下來才有可能就是說去公告、去做招標這樣的一個動作。所以整個決標可能是要一段時間,大概一個月大概跑不掉,這是第一點。"},{"start":8792.505,"end":8815.762,"text":"第二點,在這個過渡期,現行的機制裡面也是有。現在網路巡查的目的是主動去發現有這種網站類型的,並不是那種單一的影片上傳。那個大概巡查沒有辦法那麼細緻的去巡查到,主要是網站類型的。"},{"start":8816.863,"end":8845.271,"text":"那網站類型的話那是我們主要的那以目前來講的話當然會比較困難那不過我們還是要盡力啦因為透過一些檢舉我們還是可以收集到一些資料是如果多一點申訴管道相對就有更多的原眾可以一起來參與謝謝那再過來就是有關於相關的研究真的很希望非常希望主管機關好好的來把這個事情做好"},{"start":8845.791,"end":8867.652,"text":"看到問題如果沒有研究去支撐如何去因應的話其實我們這些改變可能會很辛苦那再過來就是有關於這個源頭杜絕的部分那其實婦女保障基金會曾經統計有六成左右這些影像的生成可能是自願合一當然會包括右邊在裡面"},{"start":8868.312,"end":8882.149,"text":"那這一部分如果我們希望能夠把這個不拍、不傳、不留這樣能夠落實的話事實上從源頭去管理相對這個風險就會低很多那這一部分我們有更好的可行性嗎?"},{"start":8884.116,"end":8898.265,"text":"這當然老實講現在這種世衛性暴力的案件也就是性影像的這一個的話已經是佔我們整個兒少剝削的性剝削的八成以上了那表示說這個發展非常的快"},{"start":8899.065,"end":8922.325,"text":"那重點就是說因為他用的是數位方式數位方式的話那第一個傳播快那第二個的話就是要去查要去查很難那閃的非常快所以主要要去處理這個沒有辦法從源頭去杜絕的話要看科技的方式啦"},{"start":8922.665,"end":8944.401,"text":"好,所以我們是真的希望需要有好的研究來看這個事情,好,謝謝。再過來就是韓國他們好像做得很徹底,那不知道在台灣這樣的做法會不會有哪一些的一些遙遙在注意的地方,那我們也期待不管是在法務部或者是在相關單位,"},{"start":8945.242,"end":8949.085,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":8968.337,"end":8968.357,"text":"議員林岱樺"},{"start":8985.625,"end":9006.064,"text":"PAPS現在主要是對於環境的傷害,比較多的是在這部分。那對於人體的部分的話,目前研究還相當有限,還沒有辦法說很正面的去證實說它對人體會造成什麼樣的影響。"},{"start":9006.804,"end":9007.645,"text":"王明明委員"},{"start":9036.536,"end":9037.979,"text":"謝謝主席。我們是有請薛部長。"},{"start":9044.94,"end":9047.983,"text":"部長好。部長,我還是要先請教你死案的問題。我上個禮拜有追保齡案,現在已經增加到四人死亡。但是到目前為止,我看剛剛你回答媒體的是說法務部並沒有主動跟你報告現在案件的最新進度。也就是從本席上個禮拜詢問到現在,你們兩個部會"},{"start":9070.905,"end":9083.238,"text":"這並不是部會,就是說因為檢察官他是獨立在做這個偵查的。那他的進度都沒有人可以掌握嗎?到目前偵辦到什麼進度,連部長都不能掌握?那個法務部的代表,來。"},{"start":9085.9,"end":9102.307,"text":"這個已經是四個人死亡這個是在食安事件上面非常重大的事件那現在偵辦的進度都沒有給外界一個合理的報告跟說明我覺得這個也不符合比例原則吧目前到底偵辦到哪裡?要結案了嗎?一個多月過去了"},{"start":9104.588,"end":9128.061,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們的資料是臺北地檢、新北地檢、士林地檢署都有案件在偵辦中那檢察官有保全了相關的證據相關的被告也有詢問了部分也有一些強制處分的作為但是這個部分因為我們得尊重假官的偵辦瞭解大家外界想要知道就是說到底是什麼原因造成的"},{"start":9129.605,"end":9147.813,"text":"這這麼重大的實案事件,到底是什麼原因造成的?結果查了半天一個多月過去了,沒有人知道耶。真的會變無頭公案,我覺得這個其實會很荒謬,就是我們用這麼大的力氣,大家這麼關注,結果到目前為止沒有辦法給外界一個交代。已經四個人死亡,這麼重大的事件。"},{"start":9148.513,"end":9165.993,"text":"檢察官有掌握目前有掌握,如果衛生單位有相關採檢項目,要看他們的檢驗狀況,可能檢察官有掌握,但是我們這裡就沒有辦法去探尋。我希望這件事情你們應該,我上個禮拜就問齁。"},{"start":9166.934,"end":9192.17,"text":"像類似這麼重大的事件,然後政府機關沒有人可以知道最新的進度,也沒有辦法事實的一個階段對外去說明,我覺得這個是完全不對的。這是食安事件,這不是涉及到個人的犯罪問題,什麼偵查不公開,而是大家想要知道說你到底對於源頭,你問了廚師,問了什麼檢驗所有的東西,到底現在最新掌握到的是什麼,可能的方向是什麼,結果都沒有答案。"},{"start":9192.85,"end":9215.464,"text":"到目前為止,都沒有答案。我覺得這個是不對的。另外,我希望這個法務部回去要好好檢討。另外一個是,這個食安一爆再爆,一百七十公斤的黑胡椒細粉,業者主動送驗,又驗出有蘇丹色素三號、四號。這個到底漏網之旅從哪裡來的?我們邊境不是百分之百都已經擋下來了嗎?"},{"start":9216.575,"end":9244.689,"text":"因為它的效期去往前推算,它的效期應該有三年。現在自主送驗的這一個,我們已經去追它的上游,上游廠商。上游廠商他們的資料顯示就是說這一批進來的時間應該是在我們全面的百分之百檢驗之前就已經進來。更之前,那他怎麼這個時候才想到送驗?"},{"start":9252.113,"end":9261.719,"text":"但是我記得你們食藥署有說你們有往前推估啊?對,我們有往前推三年嘛,但是那三年的時候主要是對於辣椒粉。"},{"start":9263.3,"end":9278.053,"text":"所以黑胡椒細粉是不在你們...沒有往前推三年的這個...後來我們是連這個...黑胡椒細粉都有?那你們推到什麼時候?有沒有在你們原本要去檢驗的時間範圍之內?有。"},{"start":9282.317,"end":9297.724,"text":"這一家有沒有?這一家我們還在查,因為他東西都已經賣完了。上游的廠商啦,進口的廠商。對,如果這一家驗出來的真的是有蘇丹色素的話,那我高度懷疑。"},{"start":9299.145,"end":9315.11,"text":"蘇甘紅他污染的就不是只有胡椒粉嗎?黑胡椒粉就是他其實也都有添加,那如果是黑胡椒粉也有添加的話,他的範圍擴大可能還有更多,那你應該要通知其他的有進口黑胡椒細粉的啊,表示還有更多。"},{"start":9316.595,"end":9330.623,"text":"對!不是只有這一家喔!看起來那個就是一個都會添加的一個樣板。這個跟委員報告,這個目前我們也在復驗當中,因為他送驗的那個機構出來的檢驗紙是在那個……偏低嗎?"},{"start":9331.803,"end":9355.662,"text":"對,就是在檢驗極限的那附近,所以我們必須要再復檢。第二個比較奇怪的是,它有蘇丹三號也有蘇丹四號。同時兩個色號?對,這也非常…那你們什麼時候可以盡快查出來?我們應該看看這個禮拜能不能就把它驗出來,驗出來之後的話就事情會比較清楚,但是那些預防性的下架我們都已經在做了。"},{"start":9355.942,"end":9379.065,"text":"好,這個因為你們之前已經對外宣告說已經正式結案,然後蘇丹紅市面上不會再找到,結果現在又來一次,而且還170公斤,我覺得這個食安漏洞,這個部長希望在你卸任之前,這個所有的漏洞在查驗的過程、檢驗的方法,你應該要全力的把這個洞補好,好不好?"},{"start":9380.005,"end":9381.246,"text":"此事非常重要。"},{"start":9409.725,"end":9437.496,"text":"主動去尋查的權利另外一個就是即時下架過去是這樣子很緩慢的一層又一層那我希望透過這一次的修法我們就是只要有一旦主動發現或者是接受檢舉都可以在最快的時間即時下架這個才是對於受害者最大的一個保護我希望這兩點在這次修法裡面都可以做到那希望衛福部全力來配合這一次的修法好不好好謝謝"},{"start":9441.144,"end":9441.745,"text":"好,謝謝王委員。"},{"start":9468.434,"end":9478.629,"text":"主席,我們有請法務部檢察司、我們駐主任檢察官以及司法院少年及家事廳的陸法官。好,來,請。"},{"start":9489.943,"end":9505.346,"text":"台中地檢署偵辦台版N號法案,檢方除了依據兒少性剝削防制條例來偵辦之外,也把SCP論壇幹部供應者視為組織犯罪來偵辦。法務部,用這種模式,未來會不會成為檢方打擊性影像犯罪的常態手段?"},{"start":9517.104,"end":9546.207,"text":"不好意思,相請跟委員確認一下,是說組織犯罪嗎?是用組織犯罪嗎?對,你們現在是用這條法令來辦嘛,對不對?對,那就是,其實就是檢察官會試個案的情節跟事證。那,因為其實組織犯罪條例它有像的,就是它有自己的定義。那如果是符合這個定義,檢察官就會使用。那這個部分有必要要修法嗎?呃,其實,我們是認為說其實組織犯罪條例就已經有規定了。所以檢察官其實是可以直接使用。但是這個部分,我覺得沒有寫得很清楚,不是嗎?"},{"start":9551.53,"end":9575.805,"text":"我現在不是不讓你們用反對說你們用這種方式來偵辦我也贊成但只是說我覺得這個部分是不是要再討論如果說有修法的必要我想我們應該要朝著這個修法的態度來做這樣子對於我們執法的人也會比較明確那另外"},{"start":9577.479,"end":9600.056,"text":"民團認為兒童性影像犯罪逐年修法加重刑度,但是卻經常面臨司法輕重,甚至有三成案件以勤勘憐憫、為偷拍者減刑,成為防制的破口。請問今天出席的司法院少年及家事廳代表,您的看法如何?"},{"start":9601.822,"end":9628.189,"text":"謝謝委員。關於委員垂詢就是刑度這個部分的話,原則上司法院這邊我們尊重個案法官在個案裡面的認識用法。那我們一定會在法定刑的範圍內進行妥適的量刑。你像這一次台中檢方生壓SCP論壇案的主嫌,一度被法院以無管轄權駁回,然後經抗告成功才收押。"},{"start":9629.482,"end":9653.8,"text":"另外過去這種事情也不只是一次,面對這種問題大家都是罰錢了事。那麼去年修法後仍然是一年以下的徒刑。那本席也希望司法人員對於這類犯罪能夠有更深一層的認識,不能再用這也沒什麼的思維來侵犯這樣的、來用這種角度、這種態度來辦案。好不好?"},{"start":9658.427,"end":9687.359,"text":"另外我們針對今天討論的主題也是在111年4月29日第四屆推動小組第五次的會議就有民團委員提案要求政府與國外知名網路業者Google還有Meta合作快速移除含有未成年個資照片、影像等資料當然衛福部在後來也在第六次的會議報告兩個重點第一點衛福部認為透過"},{"start":9691.144,"end":9715.094,"text":"哀慰還有與平台業者合作可有效處理及時下架的事宜第二衛福部表示網路平台業者對於兒少性影像移除及下架事宜認為執行無虞結果現在看起來是非常諷刺因為真正遇到問題時就是沒有辦法下架我想問題出在哪裡你知道嗎"},{"start":9720.263,"end":9721.185,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9728.903,"end":9754.901,"text":"安運處理的是兒少不宜觀看的貴滿18禁的這些內容後來在性影像的議題上面後來我們成立了性影像處理中心去做通知讓網路業者移除下降如果他有留資訊可以通知得到基本上他的移除率是高的"},{"start":9755.501,"end":9782.358,"text":"但是現在大家都是用跳的嘛,不是嗎?你到後來都追不到人啊。封了之後他會用VPN,那這個部分的確目前的技術上面還沒有一個可行的方式。我認為,既然要管,我們就管的徹底一點,不能讓這些犯罪者有漏洞可以鑽。那是不是希望在這個部分上,我們來想過一個辦法,能夠嚴格來執行,好嗎?朝這個方向努力,是。"},{"start":9783.735,"end":9786.759,"text":"那再來齁,我請衛福部,你們請回。喔等一下啊,一分鐘。那我想齁,在上週六,民團上凱道集會遊行,您知道吧?那當然政府提出"},{"start":9805.033,"end":9829.159,"text":"應成立兒少權益辦公室。據本席瞭解,行政院已經在103年就設置行政院兒童及少年福利與權益推動小組,在蔡政府任內由林萬義政務委員擔任召集人,到現在已經將近8年召開24次會議。您覺得專案辦公室與專案推動小組的功能有沒有不一樣?"},{"start":9832.778,"end":9848.783,"text":"應該以現在的機制在做推動的話,也沒有什麼自愛難行的。所以部長覺得說這樣子是好的?但為什麼大家都感覺不到它的存在,才會提這個案子?"},{"start":9850.385,"end":9878.456,"text":"這部分的話大概如果要在行政院再成立一個辦公室的話那第一個就是他會有跌創家屋的問題還有齁那我覺得啦齁我覺得就是這個部分呢應該再加強齁然後加強來表就是運作齁然後我們推動小組至今都沒有和數位發展部這邊來請他們來參與齁這部分您覺得有沒有必要提出來"},{"start":9879.299,"end":9901.193,"text":"這一次會增加啦我希望部長趕快把這個雖然520要到了那很多事情我覺得還是我們當一天和尚念一天經那還有最後我也看到說我們衛福部的討論提案的次數在這麼多年來只有一次而且是110年4月20號的事情"},{"start":9904.555,"end":9929.23,"text":"內容是針對兒童死因分析的協調。這是不是表示我們衛福部推動兒童權益保障做得很好,還是幾乎沒有做?事實上大部分我們都是用一個報告案的方式去提的。在這個小組裡面的委員,有一些是民間來的專家代表,提案大部分是由他們來提。"},{"start":9930.256,"end":9941.206,"text":"好啦,時間也到了啦,我也不耽誤大家時間,那請部長真的把這個事情當作認真一點,把它好好的來執行貫徹好不好?好,謝謝。好,謝謝邱委員,我們現在休息五分鐘。"},{"start":9954.429,"end":9961.253,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。"},{"start":10271.186,"end":10271.606,"text":"蘇清泉委員"},{"start":10300.769,"end":10306.791,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我請最辛苦的部長。好,辛苦的薛部長。委員好。部長,辛苦啦。嘛、嘛、嘛。共敵萬萬。"},{"start":10321.25,"end":10332.766,"text":"我覺得你的柔軟度也夠,不過現在回歸醫療也是好事啦,看你今天很開心的樣子,我也替你高興。"},{"start":10337.98,"end":10339.641,"text":"委員現在問的是性侵嗎?"},{"start":10363.962,"end":10390.669,"text":"性侵其實的確發生在熟人中間是比較多問題是一邊是小孩子一邊可能是小孩可能是大人如果兩個都是小孩子那就是我們經常在講的那個兩小無猜的案件那一類的處理的模式跟大人對小孩子是不太一樣"},{"start":10393.544,"end":10415.579,"text":"我覺得可責性比較高的是大人對小孩子。那大人對小孩仍然是以熟人為主。那這個就要去考慮到說,那對小孩子的保護是誰?如果是保護者來侵犯他,那這個就是那個惡性更高,但是更難防。"},{"start":10418.185,"end":10437.532,"text":"那如果只是熟識、熟人,他還有保護者在,那就是要看保護者到底他有沒有盡到這個保護的責任,是不是在這方面有缺陷。所以這部分的話就是我們需要去努力的方向。這個監護人?"},{"start":10440.326,"end":10459.946,"text":"檢護人如果本身是加害者,那不得了嗎?那個真的是非常危險。如果是熟人的話,事實上小孩子抵抗的能力幾乎是沒有。對,就是他的保護人要來盡責。那這樣的話,我們行政單位或者是檢警單位有什麼補強的地方?"},{"start":10461.075,"end":10490.048,"text":"講這個比較清楚啦,那個跟藍綠也沒關係啦,跟意識形態也沒關係,就是天天在發生的,常常在發生,有沒有什麼好方法?這個一方面當然就是說所謂的他的保護者的這種情形,那如果說保護者沒有辦法達到、做到這個保護的話,那這個部分的話就是要有機會讓他至少能夠通報出來啦。"},{"start":10491.589,"end":10512.984,"text":"我們經常看到就是母親帶著小孩子,但是他又另外有一個同居人,同居人要對這個做侵害,所以母親就會沒有辦法去做這個保護的事情。但是至少要讓他能夠通報出來,把小孩子移開,不要再放在這個家庭裡面。"},{"start":10514.205,"end":10528.841,"text":"所以這個後續,這真的是一個網,這個網是非常非常重要。我們這個兒少現在這個是保護又歸到衛務部來,那衛務部本身你又沒有公權力,"},{"start":10530.983,"end":10550.364,"text":"檢警單位又...應該是公權力是有啦,但是有許多強制力是比較有不足啦。那個檢調都推來推去,因為主責是你們齁,不像加拿大,加拿大是由警政來主責。那我們就檢方親來親去都在搜集你們,所以你們有辦法..."},{"start":10552.09,"end":10554.113,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":10568.374,"end":10597.25,"text":"這個部分當然我們目前也這個法也正要修嘛那這方面當然是可以但是在實務運作上面的話恐怕法律在怎麼樣定都沒有辦法定的非常的仔細還是變成是要有一些這種執法規或者是說一個協調的一個機制來處理啦不然你覺得稍微大法律比較頂都頂不住啦"},{"start":10600.424,"end":10618.572,"text":"我們今天禮拜三要修法的四個方向第一個就是加重刑責第二個是簡化封網的流程該封就馬上封然後第三個就是復會的觀賞兒少影像加重刑責"},{"start":10620.27,"end":10643.828,"text":"第四個重要授權政府主動搜索相關網站跟金流提高罰則、賀止源頭去做這些傷害兒童、青少年的事但沒有更主動的偵查、主動尋網、積極掌握源頭的方法嗎?要被害人檢舉、民眾檢舉這種被動的做法"},{"start":10648.55,"end":10655.674,"text":"黃不勝防,所以要怎麼主動的偵查,這個是我們更重要的議題。"},{"start":10658.011,"end":10684.007,"text":"所以科技方面相關的技術要怎麼樣引進來,我們希望在這一次的修法裡面,第一個可以來授權我們做這件事情,第二個要用什麼樣的方法,在各部會之間看看有目前科技的進展到什麼程度可以怎麼樣做。"},{"start":10685.928,"end":10709.03,"text":"黨團提的修早上我念過,我本人的三十九條我們好自取也是很贊同,所以大家要一起來啦。好,謝謝。好,謝謝蘇星泉委員。那我們上午的質詢就到陳英委員質詢結束後我們就休息。下午一點半我們繼續質詢。接下來我們請黃秀芳委員進行質詢。"},{"start":10718.056,"end":10729.902,"text":"謝謝主席,我們請警政署、然後還有法務部司法院的我們這個相關人員。好來,以上三個單位的代表請上台。"},{"start":10736.36,"end":10738.401,"text":"委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10760.41,"end":10776.711,"text":"厲似這樣的一個案件也有超過兩成以上是還起訴或者是不起訴那法院在審理這類的案件當中有三成以上是就是用減刑所以許多被害人因為這個家人害怕就是說會"},{"start":10777.312,"end":10804.121,"text":""},{"start":10804.261,"end":10809.026,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":10825.064,"end":10852.152,"text":"我們看到是如果是上升的話那其實還有很多應該是有黑數有的人是不敢報案我是不是請警政署針對這一部分先回應一下謝謝委員那委員關心的事情依照我們的統計跟了解比如說112年我們總共有通報跟查獲1620件的兒少性剝削案件那當中"},{"start":10853.552,"end":10879.429,"text":"簽涉到這個拍攝製造兒少性影像的是有859件,佔了53%。那散佈、播送還有販售的部分是367件,佔所有案件的22.65。那其實也跟委員報告,就是說依照我們的瞭解,其實對於這些被害人性影像如果遭受到散播的可能。"},{"start":10880.47,"end":10880.49,"text":"議員林岱樺"},{"start":10910.39,"end":10911.931,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":10929.468,"end":10948.853,"text":"好,那我想請教,就是說其實你剛剛有講了說有的被害人他第一時間可能就會通報這個衛福部的這個性影像處理中心嘛。是。那其實我看到這個性影像處理中心的這個通報案件跟你們警政署的這個通報案件是有一些落差的。"},{"start":10949.193,"end":10949.493,"text":"是。是。是。"},{"start":10966.745,"end":10972.93,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":10987.237,"end":11015.565,"text":"是,跟委員報告我想就是說像剛剛跟您報告就是說如果被害人他是成年的話他可能會牽涉到告訴乃論的案件只要到警察機關來報案我們一定會去協助他到性影像中心去處理下架事宜那性影像中心他如果接受到民眾的一些檢舉或是他主動查獲他也會轉知警政單位我們去做後續的偵查"},{"start":11016.585,"end":11035.028,"text":"請教警政署這一邊,其實很多基層辦案的同仁他們都說,就是要查緝網路性犯罪的警察很少,有這方面專精的警員確實是很少,那有的IP他是設在境外。"},{"start":11035.669,"end":11051.099,"text":"所以有時候就是說他跨境要追查是有他的難度。所以我是想請教就是說像這類的案件偵辦有相當的困難那警政署目前查緝的這個網路性犯罪的人力編制到底有多少人?"},{"start":11052.574,"end":11073.821,"text":"謝謝委員。我想相關案件絕對需要經驗的累積。那這個部分其實我們也一直在辦教育訓練當中。到底有多少人?你這邊可以回覆嗎?目前我們在中央是由刑事局的針灸大隊。那如果縣市的話,我們的專責單位是婦幼隊以及科技偵查大隊。"},{"start":11075.482,"end":11091.499,"text":"那副處長你會不會認為就是說因為人力的問題造成查緝困難,這個是原因之一?這個要跟委員報告就是說其實每一個案件要能夠有相當的事證,絕對需要時間讓我們同仁去做一些偵辦。"},{"start":11093.45,"end":11119.785,"text":"所以你認為這個人力是不是還需要再增加,或者是說你們現有的人力那也要再去培育,或者是可能在這方面的這個經驗,或者是這些可能要再累積。我是希望就是說,其實很多基層的警員這樣反應,就是說其實查緝也不是那麼容易,那人力編組確實是非常的少。"},{"start":11120.265,"end":11120.585,"text":"主席,我想請部長"},{"start":11151.919,"end":11167.996,"text":"副長,我想今天非常多的委員都已經在提醒說我們要加重刑罰等等。近期因為藝人付費加入及購買含有兒少性剝削影像網站創意私房,"},{"start":11168.737,"end":11189.118,"text":"那衛福部在4月10日請這個臺灣網路資訊中心停止解析所以我們現在看到的畫面很清楚的宰明這個網域因為違反兒童及少年性剝削防制法而遭到停止解析這個有看到嗎?"},{"start":11192.101,"end":11213.236,"text":"但本席認為這個畫面必須更有嚇阻力,讓有意去遊覽的這個民眾充分得知自己可能面臨什麼後果。這個部長你可以看,就是像我們這個衛福部其實相當有經驗,我們為了防制淹害所推廣的警語跟警圖,你有看這個警語跟警圖,"},{"start":11213.976,"end":11240.063,"text":"其實是非常嚴重的嚇阻很多想要抽菸的人知道說這可能是他會面對的一個後果那所以呢希望說這個是不是這個網域已停止解析喔這個部分是不是能夠明列拍攝購買持有可能之最高刑刑責讓這個想要去這個網站的人知道說欸"},{"start":11241.363,"end":11269.433,"text":"我可能去這樣的網站會面臨什麼樣子的刑責因為呢他在這個網站找不到他可能在另外網站還會繼續去尋找他不知道他要面臨的是什麼樣子的後果部長您同意嗎這部分我非常同意委員的這個看法但是實際上要怎麼樣操作的話那可能要跟幾個相關的部會來是這個部分可能要警政署也來支持然後來協助第二個就是"},{"start":11270.353,"end":11289.288,"text":"到底他的最高刑責是多少,可能要等到我們這次修法之後再做決定。當然當然,這個部分我想大家所有的委員喔,大家都是可以說是不分藍綠一起共同支持說一定要能夠重罰才能夠嚇阻,形成一個嚇阻效用。"},{"start":11290.169,"end":11301.063,"text":"那接下來呢我也想要請問部長這個創意私房似乎又回來了這個是在封網之後4月10日封網之後沒有幾天"},{"start":11303.041,"end":11304.282,"text":"我們禮拜五又再封了"},{"start":11333.84,"end":11349.372,"text":"我們星期五的時候又把它封了對這個部分其實對於這個問題我覺得就舉例來說這個美國電影協會Motion Picture Association MPA他們就是非常積極的在各國遊說行政機關對於盜版網站進行封網那也從不放棄這個做法"},{"start":11354.256,"end":11382.886,"text":"雖然明知封網只是治標但該做的還是要去做那因為行政機關的封網其實是一個很簡單的設定是立即就可以生效但是這些不法業者要更改網域相較之下是比較麻煩的他改十次我們就封十次那行政機關我想聽到的部長是說你改一百次我就封一百次有這樣子的決心嗎部長當然就是但是重點是我們要能夠主動去尋"},{"start":11383.926,"end":11404.571,"text":"是,這一點就是我想要提醒部長的,就是說衛福部要怎麼樣第一時間知道呢?就是要怎麼樣第一時間知道說,欸這個網站又改名換姓了呢?部長現在有沒有主動尋網的機制?目前沒有。目前沒有,對不對?所以呢,"},{"start":11405.692,"end":11425.046,"text":"我針對部長說想要委外主動尋網在卸任前完成招標書這一點我是肯定部長是一個有承擔的人但我想請問部長網路的這個複雜跟多樣性其實最需要的是藉助眾多網友的力量有沒有考慮開放向檢舉"},{"start":11427.188,"end":11452.349,"text":"像環保違規啊、交通違規一樣啊是不是可以由民眾檢舉、衛福部來查檢或者是警政署來查檢這樣子是比較快速你又不用那麼多人力然後又等於是人人都可以幫忙監督如果這樣子的話部長會考慮嗎?這目前就是也有這個機制啦我們影像處理中心就可以接受這種檢舉"},{"start":11453.755,"end":11482.256,"text":"是 那就是說我們可能要更多的廣宣才讓大家知道說他們是有權利可以檢舉的否則其實很多民眾他可能不曉得他有這個檢舉的管道或者是檢舉的權益他有這個我想很多人都會願意去做這件事情那如果這個可以立刻做出採取的話這樣可能會比花錢委外的成效都高很多那這一點也建議部長來參考"},{"start":11483.717,"end":11497.506,"text":"好,這我們會廣為宣傳,我們再加強宣導。那最後呢,如果有建制主動尋往機制之相關進程,請書面回覆本席辦公室。好,謝謝部長。謝謝。好,謝謝張家俊委員。接下來我們請楊瓊英委員進行質詢。謝謝主席,本席想邀請部長。"},{"start":11514.056,"end":11514.217,"text":"主席"},{"start":11522.65,"end":11545.608,"text":"如果必要時,法務部有問到你們,就主動上來。謝謝。楊警衛發言,今天我們審查兒童及少年性剝削防制條例,那部分條文本席也提出修正動議,也就在第三條的這個部分,在第二項的部分,增加了數位發展。部長,你同意嗎?"},{"start":11547.608,"end":11552.99,"text":"接下來本席要來增加一個第八條之一,也就是主管機關單位知道了網頁資料有第四章的犯罪嫌疑情勢,如果有阻止犯罪。"},{"start":11571.896,"end":11593.592,"text":"違害發生或避免急迫的危險,必須要緊急處置的必要性時,得通知目的主管機關單位以及網路內容防護機構,對此就直接可以移除或下架被害人的性影像或停止解析與犯罪有關的網域名稱。"},{"start":11603.561,"end":11617.496,"text":"第三十六條,也就是大家一致認為必須要刑法加重,因此本席將原先的一年以上改為處十年以上,無期徒刑。"},{"start":11618.937,"end":11642.87,"text":"並割罰金的部分由一百萬提升為兩百萬,兩百萬以下。第二個也就是在這個物品影印圖畫的這個部分由這個原先的三年以上到十年本期提的是處十二年以上的有期徒刑由原先的三百萬元的罰金提升為六百萬元那同時也就是在"},{"start":11644.071,"end":11660.687,"text":"我們認為說強迫影像的這個部分處7年以上有期徒刑,併購罰金500萬以下,本期的提案是提升,而7年改為15年以上,那併購罰金的部分有500萬元,提升為1000萬元,請教部長您的看法。"},{"start":11661.778,"end":11676.559,"text":"因為這個涉及到的刑法的橫平性的問題跟其他罪責,我想是不是請法務部來回答。好,我們一個原則,等一下我先聽到你的意見,因為你是主席管單位,也就是刑法提升,法規你要提升。"},{"start":11677.14,"end":11679.021,"text":"我們在整體討論的時候,我們討論一個共同方向就是說"},{"start":11693.931,"end":11709.774,"text":"提升金額、罰金以及提升這個刑法的部分,大家都一致認同的,法務部也點頭,所以我們希望朝這個方向,讓大家社會大眾可以安心。法務部要不要回答一下,你是要回答嗎?好,來。是,跟委員報告。"},{"start":11710.535,"end":11728.06,"text":"那個要提升這個刑責的刑度我們原則上是認同但是這個必須要考量跟其他的法條包括刑法的妨害秘密還有妨害性私密影像還有對影像的整個要考量要有橫平性相當性跟相稱性"},{"start":11728.92,"end":11750.094,"text":"OK,好,那很高興的聽到法務部跟我們主辦、主席單位我們的衛務部、塑化部都同意這個方向,也就是塑化部加入。那第二個刑期增加,第三個就是罰金也增加,這個方向大家是共識的。所以到時候我們細項的部分再來討論。好,接下來本席要請教部長。"},{"start":11754.576,"end":11781.122,"text":"這個兩個議題網路上面我們說這個影像是讓我們最難過的兒少性剝削的部分通報案件2019年是1213件2020年是2282件那去年更達到3000多件我講的數字都很難過那你也公然的也說了在我們法還沒修訂之前你會委託民間的網路趕快去巡查那現在進度呢"},{"start":11783.429,"end":11799.754,"text":"現在還是要先找一些這方面的專家來把這一個所有的招標文件的內容要怎麼樣定。那你們多久會定出來?很需要欸。這次我想說講說兩個禮拜把它定出來嘛,那應該還要一個禮拜多吧。"},{"start":11800.094,"end":11813.73,"text":"所以照那個原先的時間嗎?換句話說往現在大概在一個禮拜的時間可以點出來。趕快圍堵。速度加快,同仁辛苦一點,趕快圍堵。在一個禮拜後就可以給社會大眾說。"},{"start":11815.031,"end":11818.092,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":11834.376,"end":11835.117,"text":"最後一個議題我給您,也就是訪視制度。"},{"start":11853.315,"end":11866.786,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11875.61,"end":11899.891,"text":"那個全日拖的一些特別的案件的話,我們加強防制的頻率,一年會到六次。第二部分就是去防制的時候,我們會定指引出來,等於是一個check list,去的時候要看什麼東西,要問什麼東西,讓每一個去做防制的人不會漏掉。"},{"start":11901.252,"end":11928.1,"text":"那人員不足的部分呢?人員目前來看的話,我們在特定的一些對象去增加這個防制的次數的話,我們都有跟地方的社會局有談過,那討論過。那以現在的人力大概還可以。你們去盤點啦,滾動式檢討好不好?你要人家謹慎,你還是要給人家那個那個資源嘛,對不對?你去盤點,我們一起好好來照顧,好嗎?謝謝。好,謝謝。"},{"start":11930.748,"end":11931.93,"text":"好,謝謝楊瓊英委員的質詢。接下來我們請陳英委員質詢。"},{"start":11956.92,"end":11957.66,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11986.484,"end":11986.884,"text":"網路有一個亂象。"},{"start":12002.465,"end":12017.008,"text":"相信大家有在使用網路的人都有發現到最近這樣的一個問題就是我們經常在網路社群發現網路新聞都是用很聳動的這個標題但點選新聞連結的時候才發現說這個根本就不是在台灣的新聞我們看一下這些狀況"},{"start":12033.39,"end":12057.916,"text":"來71歲竟然還遇到這樣的職場霸凌然後在辦公室自殺結果我們點進去看原來呢這個是在中國遼寧遼寧省發生的事情那另外接下來這一則呢還寫亂倫還在開直播的新聞那點進去看那這件這個新聞也是發生在中國"},{"start":12059.489,"end":12084.548,"text":"還有網紅美女慘死街頭的新聞我們再把它點進去看之後呢結果這個新聞是發生在美國再來19歲在公園的這個分屍案再點進去看也是發生在美國那這個接下來這個"},{"start":12086.677,"end":12090.089,"text":"這一則再點進去看,它這個分析案它是在"},{"start":12091.848,"end":12117.886,"text":"在英國這些平台上的新聞就是說我們如果點進去看最多啦我們就是看下去感覺就是被騙了就是被騙了這個點閱那有點進去還好那如果沒有點進去看我們整天都是看這些標題的時候你會不會覺得說這整個台灣的社會怎麼變得這麼亂"},{"start":12120.608,"end":12142.988,"text":"我們姑且不去討論它這個新聞的內容是真的還是假的,是國外記者的新聞還是網路上抄回來未經查證的消息。這樣的亂象不管是怎麼樣,我們政府都應該要向媒體來進行道德勸說,要跟他們好好溝通。"},{"start":12143.709,"end":12171.452,"text":"因為我先強調這些呢在網路社群平台的這個新聞它並不是自媒體喔而是這是很多各家新聞台或者是廣播或者是這個報紙雜誌以及這個著名的網路新聞那我要請教一下NCC這個新聞台呢或者這個廣播頻道他們在社群平台發這樣的新聞你們管還是不管?"},{"start":12172.836,"end":12187.675,"text":"報告委員因為現在的廣電法或者是衛廣法他管的就是那些頻道那至於網路新聞呢就算是這些頻道業者另外一個那個成立一個新聞網對我特別特別問"},{"start":12190.898,"end":12214.413,"text":"這部分目前並沒有作用法可以管不過為了保障使用者權益跟維護我國網際網路媒體生態健全這些公共利益本會也會透過公司協力來建構安全可信賴的網路環境目前的做法就是在促使業者是不是訂定或完備他們網路新聞的自律公約我們目前也是在努力"},{"start":12214.997,"end":12230.496,"text":"好,我很謝謝你念這一段齁,在我們關心了這個議題之後。那,這個電視新聞台齁,就是說,因為這樣的,你們之前就好像看起來沒辦法,那,平面媒體它是歸文化部管啦。"},{"start":12231.36,"end":12231.38,"text":"議員林岱樺"},{"start":12249.394,"end":12250.294,"text":"報導委員有關網路世界、網路"},{"start":12270.543,"end":12274.286,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":12299.752,"end":12312.629,"text":"我今天提出這個灰色的這個三不管地帶或者踢皮球的地帶我現在講這個情形他其實嚴格說起來他並沒有一個嚴重違法的狀況"},{"start":12314.331,"end":12336.341,"text":"我們只是說希望這個主管機關對於他們這些狀況和這些媒體可以進行溝通、進行道德勸說。因為台灣的治安其實沒有那麼可怕,社會整個的道德也沒有那麼差。不要因為這些聳動的標題或簡短的敘述搞得我們人心惶惶。對於現在就是說,"},{"start":12339.622,"end":12346.139,"text":"而大多數人使用率相當高的這個網路媒體那上面網路新聞呈現的一個情況"},{"start":12347.898,"end":12370.894,"text":"目前竟然沒有任何一個主管機關有主動可以跟他們進行溝通跟道德勸說這是一個還蠻奇怪的狀況所以我是在這邊今天質詢在要求就是說網路的數位產業發展是數位部的業務"},{"start":12372.855,"end":12388.766,"text":"結果網路新聞呈現的情況卻涉及刑法或民法就依照各主管機關去處理。這些電視、廣播或平面媒體的主管機關,之前我們去關心也是說網路上的行為不歸他們管。"},{"start":12389.606,"end":12406.824,"text":"而不是像你們今天好像講的都要去關心了那未來這個行政院的這個資通安全匯報應該要對這個問題要馬上進行討論但是我希望我今天提到的問題你們要立刻有一些作為"},{"start":12407.785,"end":12425.252,"text":"那我希望就是說這個數位發展部你們可不可以來主責主導然後邀集NCC文化部以及相關的單位好由你們來主責來統籌研議處理怎麼跟這些媒體進行道德勸說跟溝通這樣有沒有問題"},{"start":12426.537,"end":12453.811,"text":"報告委員,這個實體上的傳播媒體的監理的業務基本上是NCC在主政,所以網路上也應該是由NCC來主政會比較好,那NCC那你們同意由你們主責來邀集數位部、文化部跟相關單位來進行研議處理嗎?我們會努力來促進這個網際網路的內容。好,那我今天提出的質詢要求你們同意嗎?"},{"start":12455.151,"end":12479.196,"text":"是,我們會努力來進行,那包括委員剛才提到的會同相關機關。是是是,就是網際網路相關的新聞業者,那包括那些新聞網,現在目前沒有作用法可以規範的,那我們會來努力進行道德勸說,請他們自律。好,請你們主責邀集我剛剛點到的這些相關部會。好,謝謝。"},{"start":12480.913,"end":12482.054,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":17943.284,"end":17960.994,"text":"呃,各位下午好。好,現在我們繼續開會。本委員會發言限制五分鐘,外委員會發言限制四分鐘。第一位盧憲一委員,盧憲一委員,盧憲一委員不在。好,接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員發言。"},{"start":17972.41,"end":17984.695,"text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府監事長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請我們薛部長、還有通傳會的詹主任、速發部的張處長、"},{"start":17987.324,"end":18009.614,"text":"那警政署的司副組長和法務部的主任檢察官,不好意思,請你們上來,省得大家走路,五分鐘時間很寶貴。我們請以上官員都上台,謝謝。好,部長,請教一下,保育的野生動物是買賣的罪比較大,還是去獵殺的罪比較大?"},{"start":18011.273,"end":18030.688,"text":"都一樣,不一樣,我告訴你。如果是買賣的話呢,30萬以下、100萬以下、150萬以下喔。但是呢,如果你是獵捕的話呢,20萬跟100萬。欸,買賣比獵捕還嚴重欸,為什麼?因為買賣造成殺害,有沒有聽過這個話?對。好,那我們來看看,所以這是我們修法的重點,我們看一下。"},{"start":18031.408,"end":18059.075,"text":"拍攝兒童影像多案獲得減刑,多數人認為你去流傳這些影像過去曾經獲得環球不起訴,甚至付錢和解也是缺乏足夠認知,甚至不曉得花錢買這些影片有違法之餘。您覺得這是目前我們兒童影像案件增加的原因,就是大家的認知還有法律上的設計不夠健全,是不是這樣?認知不夠健全,這個是第一。法律也不夠完整,我是我們修法的目的嘛。好,我們往下看。"},{"start":18059.855,"end":18081.173,"text":"其實呢,我還要講創意私房,它的高級會員呢,他可以懸賞影片的類型,一般會員直接購買,然後拿拿拿去看。但是呢,VIP,像黃子椒這個藝人呢,他可以指定,他們是屬於VIP,他們可以指定那種指定條件。然後呢,就有媒合拍攝者,所以這就像是因為你有預定,然後呢,就有人去犯罪,是不是這樣子?"},{"start":18081.813,"end":18099.953,"text":"需求去刺激到公司。沒有錯,好,我們現在看。所以呢,懸賞影片的內容,我請教一下我們主任檢察官齁。如果說有人去,我要懸賞看什麼影片,有人去拍。那,類似創意私房的高級會員懸賞影片的類型,等不同於教、教唆犯罪、花錢買兇,是不是跟你,類、類似。"},{"start":18101.943,"end":18103.123,"text":"那現在我們一個問題是這樣請教部長"},{"start":18132.446,"end":18150.156,"text":"這個在這個案子他在4月4號爆發之後但是呢看這個交易平台呢在4月10號還有在交易為什麼為什麼他們這個既然都已經對這個平台上流通的影片開始進行查緝了還可以再進行交易要問誰來誰可以答"},{"start":18153.362,"end":18172.551,"text":"沒有人可以答?這個所謂的後續還是要交易應該就不是我們這個社會...好,就是我們的司法的行動有沒有夠迅速啦,是不是這樣子?如果他有個犯罪行為在這邊發生了,我們還容許他可以繼續進行犯罪行為,是不是說我們的執司犯罪打擊機關有點失職啊?"},{"start":18176.513,"end":18203.084,"text":"應該這麼講,就是說他這個創意司法他一直有在做這個提供影片,然後做這樣的交易。但是我們現在是這個黃姓的藝人,他這一個部分的話,如果是已經停止了,但是並沒有去...對,這個平台還繼續讓他們會員在那邊強行交易。對,他現在缺乏這個預防的...來,我請教法務部,對不起,沒有找到我們江參事,不然去問朱主任,江參事在嗎?"},{"start":18205.464,"end":18215.147,"text":"來來來那你認為如果我們在打擊犯罪的過程當中發生了一個查獲了一個犯罪行為卻沒有去阻止他們這個犯罪集團繼續犯罪這個要怎麼辦法律上有沒有有沒有辦法檢察官好檢察官主任檢察官"},{"start":18224.048,"end":18243.982,"text":"其實創意私房這個案件我們在110年的時候臺北地檢署有偵辦那時候查量大量都是很多的共犯所以那時候事證比較明確所以就有申請向法院申請扣押網域名稱扣押網域名稱那個時候所以這一次創意私房黃案爆發後為什麼沒有及時封網部長你覺得為什麼沒有及時封網"},{"start":18246.667,"end":18252.682,"text":"因為這個我們過去的也就是說現在的制度之下的話這兩條路嘛"},{"start":18254.37,"end":18280.607,"text":"一條路的話就是要有人檢舉,然後我們針對這一個可能進入檢調的調查。檢調調查當然就可以去做扣押,這剛剛主任檢察官有提到。另外一個就是,它不是這個由法務部這邊來行動的,是由我們接受到檢舉。我們接受到檢舉的話,我們還要有一些行政的程序。就是下一頁所檢視的嗎?對。是不是這樣?"},{"start":18281.247,"end":18298.286,"text":"所以就沒有辦法迅速的去做封網。好,但是我們把它封網之後要轉子重生啊,怎麼辦?未來會不會有能力繼續主動發現變成封網嗎?對,所以這個部分的話就是要有這一個科技的方法來做。科技的方法?速發部有辦法提供這個科技的方法?"},{"start":18302.496,"end":18319.142,"text":"那科技的方法現在國科會已經有一些AI的技術在…你們願不願意協助?是,有,我們有…速發部願意協助?是,當然是…好,我NCC,來,NCC這跟你們有沒有關係?蜂王跟你們有沒有關係?目前沒有關係了?報告委員,那蜂王目前是性影像處理中心在…"},{"start":18319.462,"end":18340.794,"text":"."},{"start":18340.854,"end":18363.573,"text":"秦副長,法律上還有什麼部分我們要來加強的?比如說運用網路科技主動查辦,像我們說要求要修主動尋網,會不會有辦法主動尋網嗎?目前是沒有。那誰要協助你?請了這麼多人讓你點名,你覺得哪個單位要協助你?因為我們並不那麼清楚說這個技術。在場有誰清楚?誰可以協助運用網路去主動尋網?"},{"start":18365.421,"end":18369.464,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":18391.223,"end":18417.382,"text":"科技上可行,部會單位要出來擔綱,那我們修法才有辦法有用,不是靠衛福部。最後我們看看今天呢,我們再問一下組織犯罪,請問一下以這個案例來講,算不算組織犯罪?要問誰?法務部?還是我們警政署?你們覺得,可以不要判斷,這是不是一個組織犯罪?類似這樣的一個行為,以拍攝兒童性剝削的影片為主的,可不可以視為組織犯罪?"},{"start":18420.348,"end":18446.315,"text":"跟委員報告一下因為如果就我們現在組織犯罪條例來看的話他有特別的構成要件那這個有沒有到構成?他們這個創意私房的目的就是在販售在撥放這些性剝削的兒童性剝削條例是三人以上而且是五年以最輕本金五年以上有期徒刑的罪而且是強暴脅迫的詐欺恐嚇的這種手段再加上他要有牟利性還要有"},{"start":18449.276,"end":18469.281,"text":"你剛講的我聽起來只有一個五年以上還不曉得有沒有啦對對好謝謝來最後呢因為今天主席站起來了齁所以我希望未來研議未來及時主動發現新犯罪的網站並立即封案的方案是不是請衛務部提出來然後這些單位哪一些可以幫助就直接把寫明下去未來呢我們在後續的修法當中一個一個把它放進來好不好"},{"start":18471.396,"end":18474.478,"text":"下一位羅志強委員羅志強委員羅志強委員不在請吳四耀委員發言"},{"start":18506.92,"end":18507.34,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":18521.801,"end":18543.927,"text":"部長大家午安辛苦喔那進入我今天的主題呢我要念一個我臉書的文章是寫在2020年5月12號那時候我說臺灣發生了李宗瑞事件韓國有N號房事件性私密影像未經同意拍攝以及不當傳播的犯罪只有越演越烈各國皆然沒錯"},{"start":18545.16,"end":18562.331,"text":"四年後的現在,它確實越演越烈,在臺灣又發生了黃子佼創意私房的事件。那我2020年又寫著:「臺版N號房早就發生在你我身邊,所以新興的網路犯罪形態不只變本加厲,更已經全球化、產業化。」"},{"start":18564.332,"end":18589.397,"text":"沒想到我又一語成稱了確實看到這個在暗網之間創意私房就是這樣他已經產業化他已經全球化了所以這一次我們又有一次修法的機會在2022年我們完成了性暴力防制司法的修正之後我們又有一次機會來好好討論法案這一次我們真的不能就這樣算了這一次我們真的不能夠繼續頭痛一頭腳痛一腳"},{"start":18592.518,"end":18611.231,"text":"那看看我的條文我基本上同意衛福部終整其他委員的提案的六大修法面向但是我個人會用修正動議來提出我個人的版本也就是購買適同資助犯罪的這件事情我們要比較盈利來加重刑責這是吳思瑤的版本下一頁"},{"start":18612.971,"end":18620.053,"text":"從黃子椒的事件,還好現在北檢在意的過程,有機會來重新認定,否則這個緩起訴是社會沒辦法接受。當然我們看到創意思坊有80位高級會員,有醫師、有老師、有軍警。"},{"start":18630.276,"end":18655.596,"text":"高教育程度的人依舊是會去進行購買、下載這樣子的性犯罪的影片就都告訴我們現在的機制嚇阻力是不足的下一頁現在我們有機會來修兒童性剝削防制條例我要講再一次的機會可是我也希望不要再一次的掛一漏彎我們對於兒童的受害案件這一次來修"},{"start":18656.257,"end":18662.872,"text":"但是其實對於成人他還是有很多受害者的影片被外流被偷拍"},{"start":18663.772,"end":18690.002,"text":"就以黃子佼啊,他的這個4TB的這個硬碟啊,裡面只有7部,不能講只有7部啦,7部的兒少性剝削已經很嚴重了。可是事實上他還有上百部成人的。換言之還有無數的成人他可能是被偷拍,他性私密影像被外流,有更多的成人也是求助無門。所以我認為今天如果討論了兒少性剝削防制條例的再次修法,"},{"start":18690.462,"end":18711.677,"text":"其實我們也必須同步來檢視刑法的性隱、性私密的這個專章對於成人的部分也是要跟上。我想大家都同意。好,下一頁。那我個人的意見在哪裡?我們現行的條文對拍攝、製造在三十六條有規範。那營利者加重二分之一的刑責。"},{"start":18712.518,"end":18735.624,"text":"三十八條規範的散布傳送交付公然陳列等等營利的一樣加重其刑責。但是我們對於無正當持有的以及我們欠缺對付費下載觀看的加重刑責這當中現在的法規如果不改你等同於免費下載的人跟高級付費的會員他的法是一樣的。"},{"start":18736.644,"end":18751.699,"text":"我認為這是不公平的這個是偏差的下一頁我用這個表格來看來論述我們的左邊現在已經很清楚了盈利而進行拍攝散佈的他的罪是重於私下拍攝無常散佈OK這沒有問題"},{"start":18753.661,"end":18767.537,"text":"但右邊呢,現在的法如果還是依你們現在送出來的版本,會讓免費下載的人的負有的刑責被克責的罪跟付費的會員是一致的。這樣覺得嗎?不覺得,這樣覺得嗎?"},{"start":18771.233,"end":18790.724,"text":"這個是可以討論,現在問題點是在一到七年,這樣子對於附會者跟免費下載的,他的衡平性如何?這兩個來比的是當然附會教育公園的學生程度比較大,但是陷其他的就去比。"},{"start":18791.124,"end":18813.451,"text":"所以我自己的條文是修在第三十九條增列第四項。那如果我們也跟衛福部的同仁討論,如果要在你們的三十六條來調整,我也可以接受。我要求的就是,針對付費的會員本身,他也應當有更重的刑責。這是我的主張,我認為合理正當。"},{"start":18814.542,"end":18834.202,"text":"否則一法就兩制了。好下一頁所以說沒有需求就沒有人沒有供給啦我再一次把我的條文分享在這裡最後最後下一頁我要遺憾的說我當初的倡議是我們需要一部性私密影像的防制專法"},{"start":18835.123,"end":18839.125,"text":"只有專法下手才能夠整合跨部會的資源由教育、文化、傳媒還有執法跟這個偵辦從前端到後端很完整的結構性的系統性的體系在連同我們社政衛福的體系"},{"start":18853.592,"end":18869.599,"text":""},{"start":18869.739,"end":18887.005,"text":"今天我們終於又有一次修法的機會我是再一次把我2020年的倡議到2022年我們完成性暴力防制的司法我認為專法還是我們要很嚴肅去思考的方向"},{"start":18887.685,"end":18893.11,"text":"我也希望未來當然我們這個政黨、這個政權會有新的部長、舊的部長但是我們衛福部的、法務部的、我們警政署的執法單位我們都是永續存在的政府我還是呼籲性私密引向侵害防制條例吳思瑤跟范雲我們都有一個專法的倡議"},{"start":18910.905,"end":18917.307,"text":"我希望未來還有進一步來檢視的機會,否則永遠在掛一漏萬,否則永遠在頭痛一頭、腳痛一腳。我們永遠在面對社會的民粹的要求,在每一個犯罪事件之下,片面的認為這個要趕快修,但卻遺漏了另外的面向。我再一次倡議好不好,我們未來一起努力。時間很短,謝謝部長,謝謝大家。"},{"start":18941.465,"end":18952.574,"text":"林思銘委員、林思銘委員、林思銘委員、侯孟楷委員、侯孟楷委員、侯孟楷委員、陳庭飛委員。請陳委員發言。謝昭偉厚,我們是請部長。"},{"start":18969.266,"end":18992.156,"text":"委員好。部長好。部長我有提出修法的部分,包括兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條的條文修正。那其實我比較強調就是說,在持有的這個部分,就持有的部分,我們要怎麼去杜絕?"},{"start":18993.336,"end":18993.776,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具．事由．事由"},{"start":19023.876,"end":19050.048,"text":"我們現在這個希望是主動巡查以前是用報案的有報案然後我們再去責成相關單位由各縣市政府加去查查了之後我們再跟這一個所謂業者要求他下架都是被動的好我們現在主動巡查機制可是還要一個月才能公開招標啊這當中大約是這樣子"},{"start":19052.682,"end":19056.706,"text":"公開招標我們的立場跟主要他要幫我們進行的是什麼樣的巡查動作?"},{"start":19079.402,"end":19104.037,"text":"這個可能就是在網路科技的方面的話那利用各種方式去找出很可能可疑的一些網站所以我們未來招標出去的時候他就負責在我們網站當中幫我們主動巡查是不是他就負責這個樣子那你覺得你怎麼去訂他的標準"},{"start":19106.547,"end":19133.48,"text":"因為這個是屬於社會科技的部分那也許用關鍵字還是用什麼用AI來幫忙那去做這樣子的一些分析那找出這最可疑的點然後再進入去去做調查所以部長你針對這個部分你們已經有跟各部會討論過了嗎就是說未來我們招標出去要這個對象要幫我們做什麼事情然後他要怎麼去進行要怎麼達到我們的"},{"start":19134.72,"end":19142.235,"text":"所謂我們要求它的指標這很重要啊不是我們今天公開招標出去之後結果呢"},{"start":19144.229,"end":19170.907,"text":"你們已經討論過了嗎?這部分的話在現在怎麼樣去做這個招標文件的部分我們就會找各相關的部會來討論這個事。所以還沒?因為那個招標文件的內容必須要先確定。所以部長我為什麼會問你說一個月夠嗎?你一個月就可以嗎?你們現在都還沒進行各部會討論你跟我講說現在修法之後然後一個月就可以去公開招標。"},{"start":19172.188,"end":19186.264,"text":"怎麼可能呢?你知道這個細節有多少嗎?如果我們今天招標完之後還沒有辦法到位,還沒有辦法達到我們人民的需求,這樣我們就沒話說了。我們到時候被打,我們要..."},{"start":19187.728,"end":19190.67,"text":"議長,既然我們有這樣的決定,你為什麼不要提早來部署呢?提早來約詢相關的單位,做成正式的會議。這個我們都有開過會,都有問過啦。"},{"start":19213.709,"end":19236.123,"text":"我覺得這個應該是要同步因為我認為如果今天法過了然後主動巡查機制我們居然拖了一個月、兩個月、三個月之後還沒有辦法看到實際的成效然後網站當中還是有一堆這種所謂的讓人家無法接受的一些平台在上面"},{"start":19237.15,"end":19263.621,"text":"那個我們就沒話說了,是不是?然後來這個部長我再請教現在創意司法會員人數估計總共有5418人高級會員是80人請問我們現在媒體追成這個樣子到底檢警的部分你們有瞭解嗎?那個我們相關的單位有瞭解嗎?到底我們現在成效是如何?"},{"start":19264.761,"end":19265.061,"text":"警政署"},{"start":19294.67,"end":19295.591,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":19314.758,"end":19341.987,"text":"我們不能說今天媒體在追我們就很正面的回應然後呢媒體沒在追的時候我們又鬆了我們刑事局我們針對檢警有逮捕到相關的人數或是有相關的案子的部分有沒有針對創意私訪的案件其實後續我們一直有在積極偵查當中目前還有案件有檢察官目前在指揮偵辦"},{"start":19343.576,"end":19367.933,"text":"所以還是檢察官只會偵辦,所以你們沒有主動去了解就是配合辦案。那我要說20萬片以上的非法影片,不法獲利是3000萬以上,受害的人數這才是可怕,3000至4000人。我們希望我們檢警,我們要積極一點,要讓我們看到成效。謝謝。謝謝二、委員。"},{"start":19373.466,"end":19386.352,"text":"禮儀錦、委員謝主席。有請部長、衛福部部長跟法務部。"},{"start":19392.474,"end":19410.607,"text":"委員長辛苦我想在資訊如此發達的年代透過網路等管道花錢購入這個兒少性影像讓金流流往這個兒少性影像持有者的口袋這種行為就是在助長整個犯罪的產業鏈所以等同鼓勵違反"},{"start":19411.067,"end":19437.705,"text":""},{"start":19437.925,"end":19457.673,"text":"二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條條文修正草案案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條條文修正草案案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒�"},{"start":19463.095,"end":19471.339,"text":"而不是涉及觀看預先涉入兒少影像的狀況。同法三十九條則是沒有購買行為的特殊性,因為我們單純把購買及其他罪者統一以持有來罰。"},{"start":19491.027,"end":19505.303,"text":"可是購買兒童性影像的這個犯罪的樣態攸關對兒童充滿這個惡意的物化、商品化,也是對人性尊嚴或傷害他的政策,所以我想應該是要比持有者,他應該要"},{"start":19507.565,"end":19515.768,"text":"與持有者的罪責有別。因此,在本席的修法上,我是援引刑法第349條顧買髒物相關罪責來懲罰顧買兒少性影像影像者。"},{"start":19524.651,"end":19549.627,"text":"因為這形同你明明知道他是犯罪的行為可是你又願意用金錢來買賣那購買的同樣都是不法之物那都不是在社會上可以被容許可以被交易的物品所以我們考慮兒少又是活生生的人他不是物品所以因此要加重其刑二分之一那衛福部我知道也嚴厲的購買兒少性影像的相關的罪責"},{"start":19550.287,"end":19566.106,"text":"所以接下來要請部長針對這樣的提案本席這樣的提案你們的修法方向跟本席的這個提案的回應我們是同意這樣子的一個方向其實過去的確啦那個現影像的部分的話"},{"start":19568.868,"end":19593.623,"text":"關賞指的是實體的,對於現象去關賞這個部分是沒有罰則。另外就是如果付費的,那有時候有對價的,跟沒有對價的那個是一樣。所以這樣子的確是適合,只是說要怎麼樣處罰可以得到最大的平衡,這個是需要討論。"},{"start":19594.363,"end":19607.999,"text":"好OK那我觀察到不少委員都有提出這個購買這個兒少性向徵修罰則的修法的方向可是我還是有個疑問就是說在現代科技發達下什麼叫做購買什麼叫做持有"},{"start":19610.862,"end":19624.37,"text":"電磁記錄的持有跟購買會有哪些可能的樣態?難道我在LINE群組,別人誤傳影片給我,我沒有打開過,我也構成持有嗎?這部分的法律定義我想請法務部說明一下。持有的定義,就是說我剛舉例了,就是說我如果LINE群組人家傳給我,"},{"start":19635.017,"end":19657.013,"text":"我沒有打開喔!那我有構成持有嗎?因為持有基本上我們的法律定義是在自己的實力支配之下那如果沒有打開但是他是隨時可以處於他實力支配下的話這個我們有可能會認定也是持有所以別人誤傳給我就可能構成持有的犯罪了在他實力支配之下的話我們現在目前法律上定義是有可能的"},{"start":19657.267,"end":19676.722,"text":"好,那最後重申就是說為了杜絕兒少性影像被商品化的散布,我們除了要懲罰販賣端外,使兒少這個性剝削產業鏈有辦法運轉的這個買方也要有相對應的罰則喔,齁,一起來努力,謝謝,謝謝主席。好,謝謝。接下來我們請吳佩儀委員質詢。謝謝主席,我請衛福部。"},{"start":19687.944,"end":19709.617,"text":"好,請部長。委員好。部長好。部長在這一次黃子椒案事件之後,其實衍生了一個討論,就是我們看到公眾人物,不管是藝人也好,不管是網紅也好,他的公眾行為跟公眾言論都有其社會責任,所以必須要來謹慎發言。"},{"start":19711.118,"end":19738.533,"text":"那我注意到昨天我們在聯合報報紙有一篇社論是由我們楊志良前這個署長來投書寫的社論他裡面有提到他說臺灣正在大崩壞那十年過後臺灣只有更加崩壞但我非常注意今天一定要請這個部長來釐清的是因為當中這個楊志良前署長有提到他說凱凱被虐待致死的事件那官方的資料顯示臺灣每週"},{"start":19740.754,"end":19766.921,"text":"而將近三名嬰兒被虐待致死那這個以我過去我長時間在看我們政府相關的資料看起來落差是非常的大因為如果以每週有將近三名嬰兒被虐待致死的話這樣換算起來一年是將近要150個案件了我想請問部長我們就我們衛福部的統計我們每一年的這個虐童的案件是多少"},{"start":19767.645,"end":19790.103,"text":"每年大概20個左右。每年大概20件。以2023年來說是?2023年的話是家內的22人,然後家外的話是3人。是。其實20個案件也絕對不少。因為我們對孽童案是零容忍。一個案件都是很多。但是這個數字相差7倍以上。"},{"start":19790.743,"end":19790.964,"text":"楊前署長的話聽聽就好。"},{"start":19806.82,"end":19827.022,"text":"因為它距離事實太遙遠,但是部長,我認為我們態度不能聽聽就好,因為它指的是,這是你們官方資料顯示,官方是不是你們?所以要有官方澄清啦,好不好?因為我們對於現象的了解,會影響到我們投入相關的,不管是執法的資源、相關輔導行政的作業,你有七倍的案件,你要有七倍的量。"},{"start":19827.563,"end":19853.533,"text":"所以要來做澄清那接下來我要關注的是這一次的修法我有提出我修法版本那我們修法除了要加重懲處之外其實很重要的部分就是犯罪的預防大家很多討論到還有其中的關鍵是在於我們要如何整合我們部會相關的資源以及執法的措施那網路犯罪涉及到了跨境犯罪去年修法的時候其實就有討論到很多現在如果是境內犯罪可以處理"},{"start":19854.053,"end":19875.333,"text":""},{"start":19875.333,"end":19878.836,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":19898.053,"end":19920.798,"text":"其中就有整合相關部會的作為我們目前的兒童性剝削防制條例第三條其實有類似的規定就是各部會有相關的整合但是我們的文字是宣導所以對於各個部會究竟要如何來協助對於兒童性剝削特別是網路犯罪的預防相關的措施我認為我們這甚至不用到修法了"},{"start":19921.238,"end":19943.529,"text":"其實由我們衛福部我們就可以來主責,來提出一個相關部會大家來彙整的討論,那如果有需要就報告行政院,這個部長你認為呢?委員剛剛的主張我覺得都是正面而且我支持,但是只有一句話我有意見,就要由衛福部來做。事實上如果要做這件事情衛福部絕對沒有能力做。"},{"start":19944.429,"end":19960.919,"text":"那你覺得要有哪一個部?所以這個應該是跨部會所以應該是在行政院的層級去做整合因為像這種科技的技術方面的話衛福部絕對沒有能力去做但是針對網路犯罪就是需要科技"},{"start":19961.599,"end":19963.06,"text":"接下來我們請陳培宇委員進行諮詢。"},{"start":19990.498,"end":19992.019,"text":"謝謝主席,那一樣有請部長,謝謝。好,請薛部長。"},{"start":19999.662,"end":20000.382,"text":"我們有開過會,在25號開過會。"},{"start":20026.636,"end":20048.468,"text":"但是各個單位都說這個問題是很難處理。金流的部分很難處理齁?真的?對,沒錯,還有就是您剛剛說的,還有各式各樣的支付,但是如果沒有處理金流這件事情,我相信部長你一定也認同,不然你們在,我相信你們在召開會議上,一定還有人提出,那如果沒辦法處理,那我們到底還有什麼方法?"},{"start":20051.158,"end":20078.818,"text":"如果說這樣子的各方面的意見都覺得沒有辦法處理,衛福部真的是拿不出什麼辦法。好,不過我確實聽到這個回覆有一點震驚,但是我想我們之後也許我們可以再一起想想辦法。但是談金流這件事情,確實我們也看到在這一次的案件當中,其實有這個所謂民間企業金融犯罪調查師,他們有幫忙分析這一次金流。"},{"start":20079.278,"end":20106.244,"text":"例如說有多少人花錢、金流的上下游的關係,還有如何推敲真實的身份。那他們的報告應該也會提供給執法單位去追查,去找這個犯罪集團背後的脈絡。可是我們要說這個不法金流的機制要斷絕他這件事情,如果真的有困難,那到底我們未來還可以做哪些比較積極的措施?因為剛剛委員提到的那個是這個洗錢防治法。是,是,是。"},{"start":20106.624,"end":20129.235,"text":"那洗錢防制以目前國內有法,然後也有執行的單位,所以技術上、理論上來講的話是不會沒有啦,一定會有這個技術,所以才能夠防制洗錢。那台灣還沒有碰到恐怖攻擊,哪一天如果碰到了,那一定也會有這種技術,啊這個在國外都有。"},{"start":20130.51,"end":20154.303,"text":"現在就是說我們怎麼樣把這一些技術把它引進到臺灣然後把它建立起來以臺灣作為一個這個數位科技那麼發達的一個地方的話我是不相信說沒有能力去處理這樣的問題我聽到部長這句話我非常的欣慰就是以臺灣數位科技這麼發達的地方臺灣也都說全世界工程師很厲害前幾名絕對在臺灣但是我們卻沒有辦法解決這個問題不過我相信"},{"start":20155.964,"end":20182.483,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":20182.643,"end":20182.803,"text":"閱讀者們的意見"},{"start":20204.164,"end":20204.444,"text":"我非常贊同委員的這句話。"},{"start":20231.07,"end":20240.292,"text":"那事實上這心態的不太不正確的話,的確是導致說這一個產業等於說一直蓬勃發展的一個。沒錯沒錯。"},{"start":20242.383,"end":20268.42,"text":"平常我們在買東西,可能就是說這個買一件衣服可能這個衣服那是有一種剝削勞工的這種可能性那當然他有他的一個可責性但是那個很大部分的話是這個勞工願意的投入的把它製造出來但是這一種兒少性剝削的這種影片的製造的話是違反兒少本身的意願的"},{"start":20269.264,"end":20294.013,"text":"那甚至我想部長一定也知道還有很多是兒少他在拍的時候他去賣這個東西他並不知道後續會產生這個效應這又是另外一個教育端的問題那當然我們辦公室絕對有提出我們自己的版本後續我們都會再討論不過也非常謝謝部長剛您有理解我們所說的教育的部分我們還可以在跨部會合作再加強那這個部分我們後續也會希望衛福部跟教育部可以持續開展相關的討論好以上謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":20296.594,"end":20301.336,"text":"黃珊珊、黃珊珊、黃珊珊委員李燕秀委員"},{"start":20315.458,"end":20328.752,"text":"部長辛苦了,這個法案非常重要,所以已經在委員會好幾次的答詢討論。要請部長看一下我們的數據,這個法案其實我特別整理從109年到112年,相關的數據被處以"},{"start":20334.918,"end":20353.21,"text":"而六個月以下有期徒刑其實有佔了百分之二十,可以一顆罰金。而被判兩年以下,加起來以一百一十二年為例,總共佔了百分之五十九,將近佔六成,有很高的機會可以被判緩刑。部長,我一直在跟你討論,"},{"start":20354.531,"end":20373.797,"text":""},{"start":20373.897,"end":20390.4,"text":"有沒有有很好的效果?我們在這邊討論很多次。就上次您在這邊跟我們答詢,我們覺得恐怕效果包括從國外的資料我們都覺得好像效果不是那麼好,包括在輔導的教育上我們如何加強。"},{"start":20391.421,"end":20407.415,"text":"所以這幾個部分在201以下很多都被判緩刑,無論是保護管束也好、輔導教育,我們如何把它調整得更好,對於未來再犯的機會可以減少,其實一直是在這個法案當中我關注的焦點。"},{"start":20407.955,"end":20424.247,"text":"當然在這一次修法的過程當中,很多委員也都提出來未來將處一年以上、七年以下的有期徒刑,這個部分就不得一顆罰金,緩刑的機會也減少,這個部分我是支持的,但是未來如何減少再犯,"},{"start":20424.787,"end":20445.708,"text":""},{"start":20445.908,"end":20451.83,"text":"adequate治療矯正方式,才是真正釜底抽薪的方法。"},{"start":20465.198,"end":20474.87,"text":"事實上以現在的司法系統,不管你是緩起訴或緩刑,都可以命為治療。"},{"start":20477.691,"end":20479.973,"text":"對於剛剛委員所提到的戀童癖這一種,那個已經治療無效了。"},{"start":20499.713,"end":20525.698,"text":"好,那所以今天我也要往下再繼續跟您討論,所以因為我們要防的就是再犯嘛,那我也調出一些相關的資料,就是說治療戀童癖者再犯的,如果有接受過治療,國外的資料,他再犯的機率有5.9,遠低於完全沒有治療,大概佔27.8%,在國外相關的研究資料,所以你認為,"},{"start":20527.619,"end":20536.058,"text":"對於這些戀童僻者有效的治療方式接受進一步的身心治療方式好的治療方式你是不是支持這樣的修法方向?"},{"start":20537.56,"end":20561.329,"text":"而這個練童癖,它其實是已經進入到所謂的精神科的一個診斷了。我知道這個是專業的部分,您知不支持就是做有效的、有效好的心理諮商治療方式。我要指出來就是說,委員提到的這一個報告的話,其實是2009年的。那以現在2023年新的報告來講的話,它的效果並不好。"},{"start":20562.14,"end":20585.797,"text":"沒關係沒關係我們應該在國際上應該有更好的治療方式嗎?不一定因為從國外的資料部長那所以你的意思是說我們就放著不管了不是不是這中間有一些不一樣的有一些因為這個所謂煉銅壁我們是他的心理狀況但是他的行為行為的部分的話有一些就是"},{"start":20586.698,"end":20610.039,"text":"我們今天在看兒童及少年性剝削條例裡面的這種各種行為,它有製造、它有散佈、它有營利。我是指說犯罪者,因為練紅皮者他不一定是犯罪者,他沒有做這些行為,他就沒有犯罪。但我的意思是說當他犯罪了,我們怎麼樣去協助他做好的矯正治療是我今天的重點。"},{"start":20611.08,"end":20618.245,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":20631.934,"end":20657.764,"text":"如果我們社會沒有給足夠的資源因為我們現在還沒有累積有足夠的數據治療的方式來去治療這些人有些人他怕被社會被貼標籤所以他不敢講他可能是所以我覺得像比如說德國他們有一套網路的系統可以匿名的方式可以上網保密的方式接受治療在這些治療的過程當中政府也累積足夠的數據知道未來怎麼樣治療這些人"},{"start":20658.544,"end":20675.601,"text":"所以我覺得可以仿照德國的方式我的意思是說這些犯罪者我們如何避免再犯我們應該要有更積極有效的方法跟方式來去處理那我們藉著這些處理的方式我們也累積足夠的資訊醫學上的資訊未來"},{"start":20678.183,"end":20696.561,"text":"議員,"},{"start":20696.661,"end":20721.416,"text":"那我也提出來說我也希望我們也可以有一個網路平台因為假設比如說我有那我需要這樣的協助幫助那未來我們有一個網路的平台可以秘密的可以保密的讓這些人也可以接受一些治療避免他犯罪這是我今天質詢的重點也是我修法方向的重點這個部分跟我們報告您在提到的時候就好像是讀影讀影者"},{"start":20722.717,"end":20751.287,"text":"他本身如果他自己有想法他自己想要去做戒癮的話那就是我們希望有一個平台戒癮政府也要足夠的資源跟這樣的資訊可以治療他們但是我們這邊現在但是就是有一個他可以去尋找資源來自願來做戒癮一個是尋找資源一個是現任修法當中我們如何對於這些人犯罪者對阿這現在委員在講的這個犯罪者的話是皆有已經進入到司法系統裡面了"},{"start":20751.807,"end":20769.748,"text":"但司法系統裡面的矯正治療效果並不好所以我再提出來我希望有有效的更好的治療方式所以我才提出來這樣的修法方向好不好好謝謝部長好謝謝接下來我們請黃仁、黃仁、黃仁委員不在我們請黃捷委員質詢"},{"start":20778.097,"end":20778.397,"text":"法務部"},{"start":20789.622,"end":20807.034,"text":"委員好好蔡市長好因為其實早上我有先說過我的提案說明裡面有三個修法的重點那其實現在我知道衛福部也很積極的要召開會議來討論這個方向那我想要強調的是其中有一條針對重置"},{"start":20808.835,"end":20832.487,"text":"那我早上也有提到說為什麼這個重置這麼重要是因為他是現在我們這一期犯罪以來他最主要的犯罪手法就是他從這個網站去下載然後存到他的硬碟嘛所以下載的這個行為其實在刑法裡面就有針對成人的性私密影像的重置行為做處罰了所以我是發現說而少年性剝削條例裡面並沒有這樣的"},{"start":20834.668,"end":20834.688,"text":"議員林岱樺"},{"start":20849.077,"end":20866.004,"text":"是,我們尊重主管機關還有委員們的意見、見解。好,謝謝。那其實我就是希望讓大家知道說重置的這個行為是非常重要的,也要把它納入這一次的管制。那接下來我們請衛福部部長。"},{"start":20872.996,"end":20894.798,"text":"好部長我希望最後這段時間我們把這個法律好好的修過去作為你的成就達成那這一次的這個修法非常重要今天也要力拼修法送出是因為這一次的這個大家都很關心部分黨派都來關心我想要問的是因為就關於兒童性剝削條例的修法我已經問第三次了"},{"start":20895.499,"end":20919.469,"text":"第三次來到衛環來希望趕快來把這個送出但是呢因為之前跟衛福部也一直問到說那我們現在針對這樣的犯罪的手法到底有什麼樣的主動稽查的方式主動巡查的方式那我知道其實就你們的答覆在科技偵查法還沒有出來之前我們是不是無法進行主動的巡查是這樣對嗎"},{"start":20921.39,"end":20936.93,"text":"我相信技術不會因為有沒有法而有差別啦,技術如果有就是存在那裡。那因為其實我上一次來,部長也是跟我說因為沒有法源,那你們沒有法源是什麼法源,那我們現在可以怎麼修正?"},{"start":20937.35,"end":20964.467,"text":"現在的我之所以主張希望有法源來讓我們可以來主動偵查不是因為科技的問題而是因為你主動去在網路上面搜尋一些犯罪為了犯罪的防止去做搜尋的話有可能會侵犯到個人的隱私所以我們才希望說有一個法律來授權那行政機關可以這樣做"},{"start":20965.207,"end":20983.266,"text":"對,所以我現在就是要問,所以這個法律的授權必須要由哪一個主管機關、哪一條法律來進行相關的授權在我們今天的兒少性剝削條例的修法裡面有包括在裡面嗎?如果沒有,要找哪一個單位處理?應該是要放在兒少性剝削條例裡面。"},{"start":20983.846,"end":21000.823,"text":"因為這對於兒少性剝削的這種性影像的相關的這些犯罪行為的話,它比較有的足夠的正當理由來排除說是侵犯個人隱私的這樣子的權利的保障。"},{"start":21001.323,"end":21024.802,"text":"好,謝謝部長。所以我們今天這個兒童及少年性剝削條例,如果把這個法源授權給你們之後就可以做這件事嗎?是。好,那這是要最後跟你確認。最後再一個小補充,就是說在我們還沒有修法通過之前,你們現在是不是由民間單位可以進行相關的協助,就是這個主動巡查的部分。那如果有這樣的進度的話,你們目前這個委託的進度到哪裡了?"},{"start":21025.462,"end":21040.3,"text":"目前的話我們還在做這個招標文件的設計因為這牽涉到一些技術的問題那我們也是必須要謹慎一點所以我們會找相關的這些專家給一個時程好不好"},{"start":21041.681,"end":21057.953,"text":"我想這個招標文件如果要完成的話,大概10天可能可以完成。招標文件的完成是10天,那之後的話還要走招標的程序。"},{"start":21058.663,"end":21076.408,"text":"好,所以十天後會完成,開始走這個招標的程序?對,對,要公告啦,然後要投標啦,然後...好,希望部長我們與時間競賽,好不好?趕快把最後這個程序來補足,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。接下來我們請范雲委員進行諮詢。謝謝召委,有請部長。好,請部長。"},{"start":21090.035,"end":21090.257,"text":"委員好。"},{"start":21091.238,"end":21119.594,"text":"部長午安那主要是針對兒少代表我們收到陳情就是衛福部這個主導改制可是問題是說目前改制的方案看起來是開民主倒車那我覺得蠻憂心的所以今天緊急來跟您質詢因為我的案子我早上說明已經說過了關於那個數位性暴力那兒少其實已經有公開表達就是他們的就是不能理解那請問那個部長知道這個事情嗎"},{"start":21120.354,"end":21139.152,"text":"我不知道這邊在談的是哪一件事情就是目前你們明天就要開會那會不會提案要修正中央兒少代表的機制那把原本是由下而上兒少代表互選從地方到中央現在要改成就是中央來圈選"},{"start":21140.213,"end":21158.302,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":21158.302,"end":21160.944,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":21181.541,"end":21198.918,"text":"總個團數有66人都是地方各縣市選出的那是因為沒有原住民身心障礙跟國中以下學生的保障名額所以我們的國家公約人權公約的國際代表就說這個很好增加一下原住民身心障礙弱勢者比較年紀小的"},{"start":21199.358,"end":21214.089,"text":"那這個都可以用一個保障名額的方式至少有對不對可是你們的方式居然是變成地方政府深藏原民團體再加個推薦名單然後中央政府變成直接推選然後人數還變少"},{"start":21215.33,"end":21232.265,"text":"九到十五人所以我想這個好像是開民主倒車那不知道部長可不可以緊急煞車再研究一下我們就是新政府要上任不要讓大家批評說我們馬上就讓兒少代表的民主被沒收好不好"},{"start":21232.805,"end":21255.488,"text":"所以明天在行政院的兒少全體推動小組會做討論。那方案是衛福部提出來的啊?委員的意見的話我們會把它在那邊做一個表達。那這個部分就是我想是蠻重要的啦,因為就是另外還有相關的一個兒少代表的賠利機制,我們的救濟是單一民間團體賠利。"},{"start":21257.049,"end":21283.545,"text":"新制不知道為什麼就是可能想納入更多的團體有地方政府、民間團體跟社家屬可是大家會擔心是不是多頭馬車那原本就制有擔任過地方兒少代表也是蠻好的有一點經驗新制變得沒有那任期原本兩年變成一年所以有一點點不大能夠了解這個部分然後加個退場機制如果有重大影響生育之言行應解聘"},{"start":21283.885,"end":21300.06,"text":"我覺得這並沒有不好如果真的有爭議的兒少代表可是好像沒有一個讓他們討論的機制就直接中央就說你退場就退場所以我覺得在設計上有點傷害我們原來的這個民主跟兒少的一個"},{"start":21300.52,"end":21329.053,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":21329.093,"end":21331.435,"text":"接下來我們請李崑辰、李崑辰、李崑辰委員不在,我們請蔡易瑜委員質詢。"},{"start":21362.349,"end":21362.749,"text":"創意私訪事件"},{"start":21378.137,"end":21405.016,"text":"我們知道說法務部這邊好像有約尋了這個裡面的會員這個會員有工程師、醫師、軍警被約談那檢查是不證實那這個讓我想到一件事啦事實上像台灣在2011年的時候曾經有討論要把美國的梅根法案把它立法後來沒有那梅根法案就是說對於這一種性侵害的加害人"},{"start":21405.436,"end":21428.799,"text":"必須要予以公開而且讓大家可以去搜尋尤其讓社區是可以搜尋的那後來台灣沒有通過這樣的類似美國這樣所以我們還是回到個人資料保護法那以及性侵害防治法第九條個人資料保護法第六條認為在偵查不公開的前提之下這資訊是不公開的所以對於加害人的資訊"},{"start":21429.6,"end":21440.547,"text":"通常我們不會刻意去公開除非是說因為他就在媒體曝光了那就不是在法務部的控制範圍但是這件事唯有一個例外例外就在兒少"},{"start":21441.941,"end":21471.121,"text":"所以我們知道說在於兒童及少年福利權益保障法第九十六條就有講到了如果你涉及違反第四十八條就是說父母或監護人對於你讓你的兒童少年去從事危險不正當或其他諸以危害身心發展的工作的時候這部分必須公佈其姓名在在九十六條的規定好在第九十七條的時候規定更多的喔第九十七條是規定說你一旦有違反四十九條"},{"start":21477.747,"end":21494.343,"text":"其中第十一個狀況就包括利用兒童及少年拍攝及錄製暴力血腥色情、猥褻性交及其他有害兒童、少年身心健康的出版品圖畫。如果你利用兒童、少年去拍攝這個影片,就必須要公布其姓名或名稱。"},{"start":21495.464,"end":21507.641,"text":"好,這個在兒少的權利那如果這一次的創意這個司法他們目前所涉及到的違法那有沒有涉及到應該予以公開的部分這部分是我想要先詢問的"},{"start":21509.608,"end":21523.693,"text":"如果按照法條的解釋來看的話,那這種拍攝錄製的這一個部分的話,那的確是可以來公開他的姓名。對,如果他是屬於拍攝或錄製嘛,那現在法務部可能還有一個爭議點,就應該還要等判決確定嘛。"},{"start":21526.854,"end":21544.859,"text":"議題說他是持有或者是他是拍攝人這件事也都還不知道所以到目前為止是還不會當然說在偵查不公開還沒有判決確定權不會把它公布好那我現在想要問的就是說那誰要去負責公布姓名或名稱這個有誰來負責?"},{"start":21548.46,"end":21567.114,"text":"這個是衛福部來負責,因為這個兒權法也是主辦機關也是衛福部。好,那誰可以去使用這樣的,去得到這樣的一個資料?就是說哪些人他可能涉及到拍攝兒童或少年的以下的影片?我要怎麼去得知呢?"},{"start":21569.831,"end":21595.741,"text":"如果我要去搜尋說有誰有這樣的一個記錄,比方說這樣的人進來我的社區裡面,那我要怎麼去知道,我要去保護我的兒童?因為公布的話要看公布的方式,有一些是並沒有主動去把這個list露出來,這個細節沒有,但是他有犯哪一些法是可以...那到目前為止有公布哪些嗎?"},{"start":21597.352,"end":21623.125,"text":"目前還沒有,這用11款的,這一個沒有。目前這11款比較少?對。喔好,那問題就來了啊。你們既然法庭有這樣規定,就是說你去拍攝的人,至少創意私訪的,這一個那個叫做老馬的,現在還沒有抓到,可是他未來一定要公開他的名字。是啊。我要公開他的名字吧。是。未來是不是一定有這樣的狀況?"},{"start":21624.586,"end":21649.539,"text":"所以我應該如果說這個偵查結束起訴到後來判刑的話應該判刑確定後嗎?我現在想要了解就是說我們現在有這樣的武器去針對這樣去利用他們去拍攝的我們有這樣的一個武器那我們到底使用了嗎?這是我要這個這一次我要問的一個重點那未來我們的提案當然是要增加罰則持有的部分要增加他的"},{"start":21650.819,"end":21664.767,"text":"這個刑度這個我都支持那只是說明明有法條這樣的規定我們應該要充分去利用讓這些去拍攝影片的人必須要繩之以法之外他必須要揭露給大家知道他有這樣的犯行好不好"},{"start":21665.407,"end":21694.484,"text":"好,第二個部長,我們之前在討論的,就是說因為大家都在討論這個圖畫,所以大家對虛擬的現在是憂心的,那這個韓式的部分我想要問一下進度的狀況,簡單就好。已經在簽了。已經在簽了,好,那我希望可以加速。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。接下來我們請郭育晴、郭育晴、郭育晴委員不在。陳冠廷、陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員不在。徐玉珍、徐玉珍、徐玉珍委員不在。沈伯陽、沈伯陽、沈伯陽委員不在。"},{"start":21695.083,"end":21699.804,"text":"政政前政政前政政前委員不在。我們請張雅玲委員進行咨詢。好,謝謝主席。我們有請部長,謝謝。好,請部長。委員好。部長好。就是說四月"},{"start":21726.503,"end":21750.42,"text":"4月4日,衛福部有給立法院一份《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》的修正建議報告。這裡面其實有講到就是這下面我在貼的這個增訂兒童性影像、在電子行政組份及下榨時限等等有三點。那我想要確認一下就是說我的理解就是說我們會簡化行政流程必要時會立即限制接取網站並且加強尋網能量並制定規範。簡單來說是不是就是這個意思?對。"},{"start":21753.663,"end":21758.222,"text":"對齁,好,那我想要再確認一件事喔,就是相關機關指的就是性影像中心,對嗎?"},{"start":21762.062,"end":21771.065,"text":"憲宇相中心是在衛福部底下委託的一個單位,它並不是屬於機關。當時在講機關,主要是指警政、科技增防中心還有法務部這邊。"},{"start":21789.151,"end":21817.649,"text":"等於是說跨部會的其他單位的意思就對了,相關單位。那我想要再確認一下就是說因為在衛福部下面這個單位性影像中心裡面我們目前就是說我看那個報告裡面是有講到我們從去年八月到現在總共這個將近八個月的時間移除了總共是說受理需要移除的案件有767件然後有業者完成下架的有665件所以移除成功率將近九成"},{"start":21818.61,"end":21844.034,"text":"但是這個成績其實我覺得我不會說它不好因為畢竟只有八個月成效如何很難說但是我想我們還是需要的加進去擴大我們的所謂的量能這件事情因為我們的兒少性剝削的案例尤其在其中拍攝製造的猥褻性交織作品其實一年是有將近三千件"},{"start":21844.674,"end":21863.038,"text":"等於是說我們現在執法的能量大概也了不起喔就大概只有最多是現實案件的23%所以我想要了解喔這個23%大概就是如果接下來我們希望可以盡量的加速的話我們是不是要來去提升我們信箱中心的一個量能還是說"},{"start":21865.379,"end":21887.226,"text":"是不是說我們的民眾還不知道說當我遇到這個狀況的時候,我要去性影像中心求助,是這個宣傳部分我們要再加強呢?還是量能的部分要再加強呢?還是什麼樣子的部分?這個部分可不可以請部長說明一下?各位委員報告,這兩千多件,一百一十二年兩千九百多件,那事實上這個是通報,也就是說人家來申訴的。對,沒錯。"},{"start":21888.607,"end":21902.307,"text":"但是這中間有許多是沒有王子,或者是一些資料就不完全,所以沒有辦法再進入去調查。所以說能夠去處理的就是剛剛那一張。"},{"start":21904.09,"end":21921.412,"text":"所以等於是說2900多件裡面大概只有700多件是符合所有的資訊他可以去處理的。那這樣子的話就是說是不是等於是說民眾在通報的時候沒有把相關的資訊提供完整。那是不是就是說剛剛不好意思因為他搖頭所以我想要了解一下可不可以說明一下呢?"},{"start":21922.233,"end":21944.828,"text":"跟委員說明那個2900多件是有些同學聽說誰誰誰怎麼樣是疑似的那如果是真的要影像移除當事人或者他的家人要提出他的網站還有那個影像才能夠處理所以不是通報的人提供資訊不夠清楚而是性質不同"},{"start":21946.438,"end":21973.645,"text":"那這樣聽起來就是說我們到底真實有多少案件好像是不清楚的對不對?因為這樣看起來有些是疑似嘛對,那這樣子的話我們等於是說因為可能有很大的黑數是我們不確定那等於是我們如何的讓民眾更有意識的去來做通報這件事情就變成衛福部需要再積極的做宣導那因為我相信因為這個案件其實對傷害對受害者其實傷害非常非常的大人家都在開跑操跑在拍片"},{"start":21974.205,"end":21974.526,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":21987.571,"end":21990.973,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":22011.039,"end":22034.538,"text":"接下來我們在過這個兒童及少年性剝削的時候,部長,因為其實有相對多的一些委員都有提出這一個,我們不能夠只有處理製造影片的人,觀看影片的人也要有相對應的條文來處理,所以這一點再請部長支持這樣,謝謝。謝謝。好,謝謝。接下來我們請圖全集、圖全集、圖全集委員不在、王世堅、王世堅、王世堅委員不在、馬文君、馬文君、馬文君委員不在。"},{"start":22035.45,"end":22042.255,"text":"網美會委員不在。莊瑞雄委員不在。鄭天才委員不在。黃宏威委員不在。何欣淳委員不在。賴士寶委員不在。林柱英委員不在。羅廷偉委員不在。沈發慧委員不在。"},{"start":22061.909,"end":22080.654,"text":"本日會議詢答全部結束。委員莊瑞雄、楊耀、盧憲一、陳冠廷、圖全及林思敏、羅志強、黃仁、沈發慧所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報。作以下決議。一、說明及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料準。"},{"start":22081.252,"end":22102.067,"text":"請相關機關於兩週內以書面答覆。委員令要求期限者從其鎖定。那我先做預告,今天的議程我們會進行到四點半左右,會先休息。本次會議兩天一次會,週三仍繼續開會。現在請宣讀提案條文內容,若有修正動議請一併宣讀。"},{"start":22104.961,"end":22133.46,"text":"兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案。委員黃捷等20人提案。委員林岱樺等20人提案。委員陳亭飛等16人提案。委員蘇清泉等24人提案。委員郭玉琴等16人提案。委員葛如軍等16人提案。委員徐巧興等24人提案。委員陳冠廷等18人提案。委員黃建豪等17人提案。委員林依晴等26人提案。委員李坤澄等22人提案。"},{"start":22133.86,"end":22142.908,"text":"委員沈伯央等19人提案。委員廖偉祥等17人提案。委員廖偉祥等18人提案。委員廖偉祥等17人提案。委員王玉明等19人提案。委員黃建斌等18人提案。委員徐宇珍等26人提案。"},{"start":22150.754,"end":22166.609,"text":"委員王世堅等16人擬具提案。委員陳金輝等16人擬具提案。委員王美惠等18人擬具提案。國民黨黨團擬具提案。委員王宏威等25人擬具提案。委員望美玲等20人擬具提案。委員賴士寶等22人擬具提案。委員鍾嘉斌等19人擬具提案。委員何新淳等16人擬具提案。委員劉建國等16人擬具提案。"},{"start":22168.951,"end":22185.869,"text":"委員柯之恩等19人提案。委員陳素月等18人提案。委員范雲等17人提案。委員林俊憲等21人提案。委員林思明等24人提案。委員張雅玲等25人提案。委員陳培宇等19人提案。委員林月清等21人提案。現行法條文對照表。"},{"start":22187.188,"end":22202.237,"text":"委員陳廷飛等16人提案第二條,第一項第三款文字或販賣修正為頓號販賣或持有其餘與現行法同。委員李昆城等22人提案第二條,修正第一項第三款為三拍攝製造散佈播送"},{"start":22202.637,"end":22225.074,"text":"交付公然陳列販賣非基於正當目的持有兒童或少年之性影像與性相關而客觀上足以引起性慾或羞恥之土化與因或其他物品以兌價取得存取傷害物品電磁記錄之權利者一同。其予以現行法同。委員徐宇貞等26人提案第二條第一項第三款文字公然陳列前面增列購買頓號。其予以現行法同。"},{"start":22227.276,"end":22248.163,"text":"委員劉建國等16人提案第二條,第一項第三款文字販賣修正為買賣,其餘現行法同。委員林俊憲等21人提案第二條,第一項第三款文字或販賣修正為盾號販賣或無正當理由持有,其餘現行法同。委員徐草新等24人提案第三條,修正第三項如下,主管機關應會同前項相關機關,並邀集相關學者或專家、民間相關機構"},{"start":22253.245,"end":22277.25,"text":"團體代表及目的事業主管機關代表每年至少召開一次會議,定期公布檢討、教育宣導、救援及保護、加害者處罰、安置及服務等工作成效,並建立犯罪資料庫、跨部會整合各單位通報記錄並同步訊息,其餘現行法同。委員黃玉敏等19人提案第三條,於第二項文字交通後面增列、頓耗數位發展,"},{"start":22278.57,"end":22308.002,"text":"修正第四項後段文字為,協調、研究、審議、諮詢、推動及檢討兒童及少年性剝削防制政策,其餘現行法同。委員陳金輝等16人提案第三條,修正第三項,主管機關應會同前向相關機關定期檢討、教育、宣導、救援及保護、加害者處罰、安置及服務等工作成效,並每半年公布工作會議紀錄與工作成效。增訂第四項,主管機關應統籌建立、管理兒童及少年性剝削電子資料庫"},{"start":22308.642,"end":22326.073,"text":"公法官、檢察官、警察、醫師、護理人員、心理師、社會工作人員及其他政府機關使用,並對被害人之身份予以保密。現行第四項手具修正為主管機關應定期邀集相關學者或專家,並將現行第四項及第五項一列為第五項及第六項。"},{"start":22326.913,"end":22346.327,"text":"憎定第七項、第四項規定電子資料庫之建立、管理及使用辦法由中央主管機關定之,其餘與現行法同。國民黨黨團提案、委員劉建國等16人提案、委員柯志恩等19人提案、委員林思明等24人提案第三條與第二項文字交通後面增列頓耗數位發展,其餘與現行法同。"},{"start":22346.767,"end":22361.475,"text":"委員林岱琴等21人提案第三條本條例所稱主管機關在中央為衛生福利部在直轄市為直轄市政府在縣市為縣市政府主管機關執行應獨立編列預算並致專職人員辦理兒童及少年性剝削防制業務主管機關及目的事業主管機關均應辦理兒童及少年性剝削防制業務其權則劃分如下"},{"start":22367.638,"end":22388.963,"text":"一、主管機關、主管兒童及少年性剝削防制政策之規劃、推動及督導等相關事宜、監督等相關事宜。二、設政主管機關、被害人保護、安置、庇護、輔助與定期公佈性剝削相關統計資料及其他相關事宜。三、衛生主管機關、被害人驗傷、心理輔導、身心治療與加害人身心治療"},{"start":22389.543,"end":22392.545,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":22406.012,"end":22431.355,"text":"厲、生活及其他相關事宜。六、警政主管機關、被害人身份識別、人身安全之維護、兒童及少年性剝削犯罪調查、資料統計、加害人登記、報導、查訪、查閱及其他相關事宜。七、法務主管機關、兒童及少年性剝削犯罪偵查、矯正、徒刑執行期間治療及其他相關事宜。八、移民主管機關、臺灣地區無戶及國民、外國人、無國及人民、"},{"start":22431.755,"end":22447.962,"text":"大陸地區人民、香港或澳門居民及兒童或少年因遭受性剝削或疑似遭受性剝削至於其停留、居留者、協助其在台居留或定居權益維護、配合協助辦理後續送返事宜、加害人為台灣地區無戶及國民、"},{"start":22449.222,"end":22465.862,"text":"外國人、大陸地區人民、香港或澳門居民配合協助辦理後續遣返及其他相關事宜。九、通訊傳播主管機關、廣播電視、電信事業及其他由該機關依法管理之媒體違反本法規之處理及其他相關事宜。"},{"start":22466.423,"end":22484.032,"text":"十、數位事務、主管機關、協助主管機關執行限制、接取、流量管理及其他相關事宜。十一、其他性剝削防制措施由相關目的事業主管機關依其權責辦理。前項目的事業主管機關涉及兒童及少年性剝削防制業務時應全力配合並辦理防制、教育及先導。"},{"start":22484.952,"end":22504.25,"text":"主管機關應會同前項相關機關定期公佈並檢討教育及宣導、救援及保護、加害者處罰、安置及服務等工作成效。主管機關應邀集相關學者或專家、民間相關機構、團體代表及目的事業主管機關代表協調、研究、審議、諮詢及推動兒童及少年性剝削防制政策。"},{"start":22504.83,"end":22528.92,"text":"前項學者、專家及民間相關機構、團體代表不得少於二分之一、任意性別不得少於三分之一。委員黃玉敏等19人提案第四條,第一項,高級中等以下學校每學期應辦理兒童及少年性剝削防制教育課程至少二小時。修正第二項序文為,前項兒童及少年性剝削教育課程內容如下,增訂第三項,幼兒園應實施兒童及少年性剝削防制教育宣導。"},{"start":22531.121,"end":22547.279,"text":"其餘現行法同、委員陳冠廷等18人提案第五條、增列第二項為有效預防及打擊兒童及少年性剝削犯罪中央法務主管機關應建立兒童及少年性剝削犯罪資料庫提供司法及警察機關使用。其餘現行法同、"},{"start":22548.905,"end":22574.631,"text":"委員陳金輝等16人提案。第五條,簽訂第二項及第三項如下,發生重大兒童及少年性剝削或性犯罪事件或有發生之餘,中央主管機關應緊速會同相關目的事業主管機關組成跨部會專案小組進行調查,前項專案小組之組織與運作、調查程序、報告及其他應遵行事項之辦法,由中央主管機關定之,其餘現行法同。國民黨黨團提案第五條,於據中分號前增訂。"},{"start":22575.251,"end":22580.498,"text":"Judge以及被害人安全維護犯罪調查資料統計加害人登記報導查訪、查閱及其他相關事宜。其餘現行法同委員柯志恩等19人提案第五條與據中分號前增訂。Judge以及被害人安全維護性侵害犯罪調查"},{"start":22591.611,"end":22619.858,"text":"資料統計、加害人登記、報導、查訪、查閱及其他相關事宜,其餘現行法同。委員林思明等24人提案第五條,於具中分號前增訂、購號以及被害人安全維護資料統計、加害人登記、報導、查訪、查閱及其他相關事宜,其餘現行法同。委員林月琴等21人提案第五條,增訂第二項及第三項如下,為辦理本法第二條第一項第三款性剝削行為之被害人身份識別、犯罪偵查、警政主管機關、"},{"start":22620.778,"end":22635.756,"text":"因指定或設立專責單位辦理下列事項。一、建立被害人性影像資料庫系統,針對身份未知之被害人性影像進行辨識,並利用性影像資料庫協助犯罪偵查。二、依法院檢察官或司法檢察機關請求提供資料庫相關資料,進行被害人識別。"},{"start":22639.58,"end":22667.134,"text":"犯罪偵查及審判程序。三、其他與被害人性影像有關之事項有關第二項性影像資料庫之資料儲存、管理、使用、提供辦法由主管機關會同內政部定之。委員林岱樺等20人提案。第八條第一項默具修正為應先移除與第四章犯罪有關之網頁資料其餘現行法同。委員徐巧興等24人提案第八條修正第二項倒數第二具為應保留三百六十日其餘現行法同。"},{"start":22667.614,"end":22692.485,"text":"委員陳金輝等16人提案第八條,修正第二項倒數第二具為應保留一年其餘現行法同。委員范雲等17人提案第八條,第一項文字透過修正為接貨並修正末具為應於二十四小時內先行限制瀏覽會議處於第四章犯罪有關之網頁資料。增訂第二項,前項網頁犯罪情節重大或曾遭限制接取者為"},{"start":22693.365,"end":22717.984,"text":"主旨犯罪、危害之發生或避免急迫危險而有及時處置之必要時,主管機關得及時強制、限制接取。第二項具首文字前修正為第一,並一列為第三項,現行第三項一列為第四項,增併第五項及第六項如下。網際網路平台提供者、網際網路應用服務提供者及電信事業應設置相關被害人申訴管道,並公開揭示之。"},{"start":22718.604,"end":22739.101,"text":"如網際網路平台提供者、網際網路應用服務提供者及電信事業,位於境外,警察機關仍應積極協助被害者,聯繫相關平台及業者,訴請移除第四章之犯罪嫌疑情勢相關資訊,必要時得請求法務主管機關協助,透過國際刑事司法互助,向外國政府、機構或國際組織尋求"},{"start":22741.482,"end":22765.048,"text":"​​協助請求區域縣刑法同委員林思敏等24人提案第八條與第一項具末增列逗號並應通報主管機關或第五條所定機關或人員支持不得超過48小時區域縣刑法同委員林岱琴等21人提案第八條修正第一項如下網際網路平台提供者、網際網路應用服務提供者及網際網路接取服務提供者透過主管機關"},{"start":22765.988,"end":22789.557,"text":"則有第四章之犯罪嫌疑情勢應先行限制瀏覽或移除與第四章犯罪有關之網頁資料。其餘現行法同委員黃毓民等十九人提案增訂第八條之一。主管機關得知網頁資料有第四章之犯罪嫌疑情勢,任由阻止犯罪危害之發生或避免急或危險需及時處置之必要時,得通知目的事業主管機關及網路內容防護機構。"},{"start":22791.798,"end":22797.575,"text":"而對移除或下架被害人之性影像或停止解析與犯罪有關之往遇名稱。"},{"start":22799.4,"end":22828.436,"text":"委員徐巧欣等24人提案第15條、修正第二項第二款如下。二、送交適當場所緊急安置、保護及提供服務,並提供心理諮詢與輔導課程至少18小時,其與現行法同。委員黃健豪等17人提案第28條與第一項中間文字39條第一項第三項後面增列頓號第四項文字,其與現行法同。委員張雅玲等25人提案第28條、修正第一項具中39條第一項及檢察官之間的文字為"},{"start":22828.956,"end":22848.213,"text":"第二項頓耗、第四項之罪者、被害人、其與現行法同。委員廖偉祥等17人提案第三十條,修正第一項蓄違默劇違,其期間至少三年或其年滿二十歲址,並增訂第三項爐下,地方主管機關依第一項辦理提供就學就業、自立生活或其他必要之協助,"},{"start":22848.573,"end":22875.701,"text":"中央主管機關應於補助所需之經費,其餘現行法同。委員徐巧欣等24人提案第31條,修正第二項默惡巨違,除五年以下有期徒刑,拘役或新台幣五十萬元以下罰金,其餘現行法同。委員徐巧欣等24人提案第32條,修正刑度與罰款額度如下,第一項,除三年以上十年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金,以加速販資者益同。第二項,除五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑,"},{"start":22876.341,"end":22904.555,"text":"並科新臺幣五百萬元以下罰金,第三項處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑,得並科新臺幣三百萬元以下罰金,其餘現行法同。委員王世堅等十六人提案第三十二條,修正行度如下,第一項處三年以上七年以下有期徒刑,第三項處三年以上七年以下有期徒刑,其餘現行法同。委員鍾家斌等十九人提案第三十二條,修正行度如下,第一項處五年以上有期徒刑,第二項處七年以上有期徒刑,第三項處五年以上有期徒刑,其餘現行法同。"},{"start":22904.935,"end":22920.166,"text":"委員劉建國等十六人提案第三十二條修正行動如下,第一項處三年以上七年以下有期徒刑,第二項處五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑,第三項處三年以上七年以下有期徒刑,其餘現行法同。委員徐巧興等二十四人提案第三十二條。"},{"start":22921.047,"end":22935.889,"text":"修正行度如下,第一項,處十年以上有期徒刑,第二項,處十年以上有期徒刑或無期徒刑,第三項,處五年以上、十二年以下有期徒刑,其與現行法同。委員中嘉賓等十九人提案第三十三條,修正行度如下,第一項,處十年以上有期徒刑,"},{"start":22936.249,"end":22959.464,"text":"第二項處十二年以上有期徒刑,第三項處七年以上有期徒刑,其餘現行罰同。委員劉靖國等十六人提案第三十三條,修正刑度與罰款額度如下,第一項處十年以上有期徒刑,得併科新台幣一千萬元以下罰金,第二項處十二年以上有期徒刑,併科新台幣一千二百萬元以下罰金,其餘現行罰同。委員徐巧興等二十四人提案第三十四條,修正刑度如下第一項,"},{"start":22960.305,"end":22975.561,"text":"שוב十年以上有期徒刑第三項除五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑其餘現行法通委員鍾佳濱等十九人提案第三十四條修正行動如下第一項處十年以上有期徒刑第三項處七年以上有期徒刑其餘現行法通"},{"start":22976.101,"end":23000.545,"text":"委員徐巧興等24人提案。第三十五條,修正刑度與罰款額度如下。第一項,除五年以上、十二年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金。第二項,除十年以上有期徒刑或無期徒刑,得併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金,持有現行法同。委員鍾佳冰等19人提案。第三十五條,修正刑度如下。第一項,除七年以上有期徒刑,第二項,除十年以上有期徒刑,持有現行法同。"},{"start":23000.965,"end":23017.253,"text":"委員劉建國等十六人提案第三十五條修正刑度與罰款額度如下第一項,處五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金。第二項,處十年以上有期徒刑,得併科新台幣七百萬元以下罰金,其餘現行罰同。委員黃捷等二十人提案第三十六條,修正第一項具首為拍攝、製造、重製兒童或少年之性影像,並修正莫具為得併科新台幣二百萬元以下罰金,其餘現行罰同。委員徐巧興等二十四人提案第三十六條,"},{"start":23030.899,"end":23051.089,"text":"修正刑度與罰款額度無下第一項,處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金。第二項,處五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金。第三項,處十年以上有期徒刑或無期徒刑,得併科新台幣七百萬元以下罰金。第六項,莫具修正為莫收之並於"},{"start":23052.15,"end":23070.158,"text":"判決確定後銷毀其餘現行法同。委員陳冠廷等18人提案第36條修正刑度與罰款而度如下。第一項,除一年六個月以上、七年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金。第二項,除五年以上、十年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金。"},{"start":23070.738,"end":23096.381,"text":"第三項,處十年以上有期徒刑,得併科新台幣一千萬元以下罰金,其餘現行法同。委員李昆城等22人提案第36條,修正刑度如下。第一項,處三年以上、十年以下有期徒刑。第二項,處五年以上、十二年以下有期徒刑。第三項,處十年以上有期徒刑,其餘現行法同。委員王世堅等16人提案第36條,修正刑度與罰款額度如下。第一項,處三年以上、七年以下有期徒刑。"},{"start":23097.041,"end":23126.401,"text":"則併科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金。第二項,處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑。則併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金。第三項,處七年以上有期徒刑。則併科新台幣七百萬元以下罰金。其餘現行法同。國民黨黨團提案第三十六條,修正刑度與罰款額度如下。第一項,處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑。則併科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金,並公佈姓名及照片。第二項,處五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑。則併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金,並公佈姓名及照片。"},{"start":23126.801,"end":23137.947,"text":"第三項,處10年以上有期徒刑,得併科新台幣700萬元以下罰金,並公佈姓名及照片。第六項,莫具修正為,莫收並於判決確定後銷毀之,其予現行法同。"},{"start":23139.605,"end":23145.809,"text":"委員王宏偉等21人提案第36條,修正刑度與罰款額度如下。第一項,處10年以上有期徒刑,得併科新台幣200萬元以下罰金。第二項,處12年以上有期徒刑,得併科新台幣600萬元以下罰金。第三項,處15年以上有期徒刑,得併科新台幣1000萬元以下罰金。其餘現行罰同。委員鍾嘉斌等19人提案第36條,修正刑度如下。第一項,處5年以上有期徒刑。第二項,處7年以上有期徒刑。"},{"start":23165.982,"end":23180.749,"text":"第三項處十年以上有期徒刑,其餘現行法同。委員劉建國等十六人提案第36條,修正刑度與罰款額度如下。第一項處三年以上七年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金。第二項處五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑,"},{"start":23181.249,"end":23184.333,"text":"則並科新臺幣五百萬元以下罰金,第三項處十年上有期徒刑,則並科新臺幣一千萬元以下罰金,其餘現行罰同。委員柯智恩等十九人提案第36條,第一項至第三項具墨軍增列、逗號,同時公佈姓名及照片,"},{"start":23196.85,"end":23211.267,"text":"並依性侵害犯罪防治法第31條之規定接受身心治療、輔導或教育其餘現行法同。委員陳素月等18人提案第36條,修正第一項刑度與罰款額度如下,處三年以上、十年以下有期徒刑。"},{"start":23211.667,"end":23218.649,"text":"得併科新臺幣200萬元以下罰金,其餘與現行法同。委員范雲等17人提案第36條,修正第一項刑度與罰款額度如下,處三年以上、七年以下有期徒刑。得併科新臺幣200萬元以下罰金,其餘與現行法同。委員林思敏等24人提案第36條,修正刑度與罰款額度如下,第一項處三年以上、十年以下有期徒刑。得併科新臺幣100萬元以上、300萬元以下罰金,並公布姓名與相片與主管機關網站,並供民眾查詢。"},{"start":23241.014,"end":23262.441,"text":"厲二、處三年以上、十年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣一百萬元以上、三百萬元以下罰金,並公佈姓名與相片於主管機關網站,並供民眾查詢。第三項,處十年以上、有期徒刑,得併科新台幣一百萬元以上、五百萬元以下罰金,並公佈姓名與相片於主管機關網站,並供民眾查詢。增併第七項如下,以"},{"start":23263.061,"end":23290.86,"text":"以第一項自第三項之圖畫、語音、影像或其他物品,恐嚇他人生命、身體、自由、名譽或財產自身危害與安全者,依各該條項之規定,加重其刑至三分之二。原第七項已列為第八項,其餘與現行法同。委員陳培宇等十九人提案第36條,修正刑度與罰款額度如下。第一項,處三年以上、七年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣二百萬元以下罰金。第二項,處五年以上、十年以下有期徒刑。"},{"start":23291.56,"end":23310.923,"text":"則併科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金,第三項處十年以上有期徒薪,則併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金,其餘現行罰同。委員林岱樺等21人提案第36條,修正第一項具首具為拍攝製造重製兒童或少年之性影像,並修正末具為得併科新台幣二百萬元以下罰金,其餘現行罰同。"},{"start":23312.625,"end":23329.545,"text":"委員郭玉琴等16人提案第38條,修正行度如下。第一項,處三年以上、十年以下有期徒刑。第二項,處三年以上、五年以下有期徒刑。其與現行法同。委員徐曉清等24人提案第38條,修正行度如下。第一項,"},{"start":23330.806,"end":23359.503,"text":"處三年以上、十年以下有期徒刑。第五項,最後一具修正為沒收並於案件判決確定後銷毀之,其餘以現行法同。委員陳冠廷等十八人提案第三十八條,修正刑度與罰款,額度如下。第一項,處一年六個月以上、七年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣七百萬元以下罰金。第二項,處一年以上、五年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金,其餘以現行法同。"},{"start":23361.104,"end":23377.317,"text":"委員李坤澄等22人、王玉敏等19人提案第38條,修正行動如下,第一項處三年以上、十年以下有期徒刑,第二項處一年以上、七年以下有期徒刑,須以現行法同。委員徐玉珍等26人提案第38條第一項,將購買納入"},{"start":23380.62,"end":23396.316,"text":"犯罪行為類型予以處罰。其餘與現行法同。委員王世堅等16人提案第三十八條,修正行動如下。第一項,處三年以上、七年以下有期徒刑。第二項,處三年以上、七年五年以下有期徒刑。其餘與現行法同。"},{"start":23397.981,"end":23413.426,"text":"國民黨團提案第三十八條第一項修正刑度與罰款而度為處三年以上、十年以下有期徒刑、得併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金並公布姓名及照片。第二項最後一具增訂文字並公布姓名及照片。"},{"start":23414.286,"end":23428.379,"text":"第五項最後一句修正為默說並於案件判決確定後銷毀之,其餘現行法同。委員王宏威等25人提案第38條第一項修正行度為處七年以上有期徒刑,其餘現行法同。"},{"start":23430.143,"end":23457.8,"text":"委員鍾家斌等19人提案第38條修正行度如下,第一項處五年以上有期徒刑,第二項處五年以上、十二年以下有期徒刑,局以現行法同。委員劉建國等16人提案第38條修正行度與罰款額度如下,第一項處三年以上、十年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣七百萬元以下罰金,第二項處一年以上、七年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金,局以現行法同。"},{"start":23459.332,"end":23481.4,"text":"委員柯之恩等19人提案第38條,第一項,最後一句徵定文字,同時公佈姓名及照片,並依《性侵害犯罪防治法》第31條規定接受身心治療、輔導或教育。第二項,最後一句徵定文字,同時公佈姓名及照片,並依《性侵害犯罪防治法》第31條規定接受身心治療、輔導或教育。"},{"start":23484.021,"end":23511.5,"text":"委員陳樹岳等十八人、陳培宇等十九人、第三十八條修正行動如下,第一項處三年以上、七年以下有期徒刑,第二項處一年以上、五年以下有期徒刑,其與現行法同。委員范雲等十七人提案第三十八條,將重置納入第二項犯罪類型予以處罰,並修正第一項行動處三年以上、七年以下有期徒刑,第三項將支付對價而持有或關人入法,"},{"start":23512.26,"end":23530.443,"text":"憎定第六項犯本條之罪而違反《個人資料保護法》,如洩漏被害人個人資料、姓名、出生年月日、住居所、學校、資產及其他族之識別及身份之資料者,加重其刑至二分之一及與現行法同。"},{"start":23532.045,"end":23560.612,"text":"委員林思敏等二十四人提案第38條修正行動與罰款而渡如下。第一項,處三年以上、七年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣一百萬元以上、五百萬元以下罰金,並公布姓名與相片與主管機關網站,並供民眾查詢。第二項,得併科新台幣三十萬元以上、三百萬元以下罰金,並公布姓名與相片與主管機關網站,並供民眾查詢。其餘現行法同。"},{"start":23562.54,"end":23564.292,"text":"委員黃捷等20人提案。"},{"start":23565.663,"end":23594.759,"text":"第三十九條第一項修正刑度與罰款額度處二年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣三萬元以上一百萬元以下罰金許以現行法同。委員林岱樺等二十人提案第三十九條無正當理由持有、購買兒童或少年之性影像與性相關而客觀上足以引起性慾或羞恥之圖畫、語音或其他物品處三年以上有期徒刑得併科新台幣一百萬元以上"},{"start":23595.559,"end":23611.757,"text":"罰金。犯前向之罪者應令其接受十二小時以下之輔導教育其附著物、圖畫及物品不問屬於此有人與否,莫入之。查獲第一項之圖畫與應其他物品及其附著物"},{"start":23612.458,"end":23636.497,"text":"不問屬於犯罪行為人與否,莫收之。委員陳廷飛等十六人提案第39條,修正刑度與罰款額度如下。第一項,處三年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣一百萬元以下罰金。第二項,處新台幣十萬元以上、五十萬元以下罰金。第三項,處新台幣三十萬元以上、一百五十萬元以下罰金,須以現行法同。"},{"start":23637.577,"end":23657.936,"text":"委員蘇清泉等二十四人提案第39條修正行動與罰款額度如下,第一項處五年以下有期徒刑、拘役或科或併科新台幣三十萬元以上、一百萬元以下罰金,第二項處新台幣五萬元以上、三十萬元以下罰款,第三項處新台幣十萬元以上、五十萬元以下罰金,其餘現行罰同。"},{"start":23659.966,"end":23679.121,"text":"委員過疫情等十六人提案第39條修正行動與罰款額度不下。第一項,無證章理由持有及購買兒童或少年資訊影像處三年以上、十年以下有期徒刑、拘役或科或併科新台幣三十萬元以上、三百萬元以下罰金。"},{"start":23680.458,"end":23693.471,"text":"第二項,第一具修正為無正章理由持有及購買兒童或少年與性相關而客觀上足以引起性慾或羞恥之圖畫、語音或其他物品,須以現行法同。"},{"start":23694.69,"end":23714.622,"text":"委員葛如君等16人提案第39條修正刑度與罰款額度如下。第一項處一年以上、三年以下有期徒刑得併科新台幣三萬元以上、三十萬元以下罰金,其餘以現行法同。委員曲曉清等24人提案第39條修正刑度與罰款額度如下。"},{"start":23715.202,"end":23740.668,"text":"而度如下,第一項處三年以下由其徒刑,拘役並科新台幣三十萬元以上、一百萬元以下罰金第二項處新台幣五萬元以上、三十萬元以下罰款,並得令其接受十小時之輔導教育第三項處新台幣十萬元以上、一百萬元以下罰金第四項最後具修正為沒收並於判決確定後銷毀之及以現行法同"},{"start":23741.926,"end":23768.824,"text":"委員黃建豪等17人提案第三十九條,增訂第四項,購買兒童或少年之性影像或與性相關而客觀上足以引起性慾或羞恥之圖畫、語音或其他物品處一年以上、七年以下有其圖形,得併科新台幣一百萬元以下罰金。原第四項、第一為第五項必修正為查獲之第一項、第三項及第四項之附著物、圖畫及物品"},{"start":23769.665,"end":23773.821,"text":"不問屬於犯罪行為人與否,莫收之,取以現行法同。"},{"start":23775.984,"end":23801.533,"text":"委員李坤誠等22人提案第39條、增訂第四項以對價取得存取上開物品電池記錄之權利者以此有論。而第四項、第一為第五項並修正為查獲之第一項及第三項之附著物、圖畫及物品,不論屬於犯罪行為人與否,莫受之區域現行法同。委員沈伯陽等19人提案第39條,"},{"start":23803.434,"end":23822.564,"text":"修正罰款額度如下,第一項,居易或科或病科新台幣六萬元以上、六十萬元以下罰金。第二項,儲新台幣二萬元以上、二十萬元以下罰款。第三項,儲新台幣三萬元以上、三十萬元以下罰金及現行法同。委員廖偉祥等十八人,"},{"start":23823.484,"end":23851.296,"text":"王世堅等十六人、王美惠等十八人、第三十九條、第一項修正刑度處三年以下有期徒刑、其予以現行法同。委員王玉敏等十九人提案第三十九條、增訂第五項支付對價犯第一項及第二項之犯罪者。依各該條項之規定加重其刑制二分之一、其予以現行法同。委員黃建斌等十八人提案第三十九條、"},{"start":23852.847,"end":23859.474,"text":"第二項,修正輔導教育時數為10小時以上、20小時以下之輔導教育區域現行法同。"},{"start":23861.226,"end":23888.721,"text":"委員陳金輝等16人提案第39條修正行度與罰款額度如下。第一項處一年以上、五年以下有期徒刑、拘役或科或病科新台幣30萬元以上、100萬元以下罰金。第二項處新台幣5萬元以上、30萬元以下罰款。第三項處新台幣10萬元以上、50萬元以下罰金。其餘現行法同。國民黨團提案第39條"},{"start":23890.422,"end":23917.008,"text":"第一項修正刑度與罰款額度處三年以下有期徒刑、拘役並科新台幣30萬元以上、300萬元以下罰金並公布姓名及照片。第二項修正罰款額度與輔導教育時數為處新台幣5萬元以上、50萬元以下罰還並得令其接受5小時以上、15小時以下之輔導教育並增訂最後一句文字並公布姓名及照片。"},{"start":23917.748,"end":23937.984,"text":"第三項,修正罰款額度處新台幣十萬元以上、一百萬元以下罰金。第四項,最後一具修正為沒收並於判決確定後銷毀之。其餘先行法同。委員黃捷等25人提案第39條,第一項,修正刑度與罰款額度處三年以上,"},{"start":23939.164,"end":23954.49,"text":"三年以下有期徒刑具役得併科新台幣十萬元以上、一百萬元以下罰金,取以現行法同。委員賴世保等二十二人提案第三十九條,修正刑度與罰款額度如下。第一項,處二年以下有期"},{"start":23955.05,"end":23980.921,"text":"有期徒刑、居易或科或病科新台幣十萬元以上、一百萬元以下罰金,第二項處新台幣三萬元以上、三十萬元以下罰款,第三項處一年以下有期徒刑、居易或科或病科新台幣六萬元以上、六十萬元以下罰金,取以現行法同。委員鍾嘉斌等十九人提案第三十九條,第一項修正刑度處三年以上、"},{"start":23982.395,"end":23996.736,"text":"十年以下有期徒刑,其餘以現行法同。委員何新淳等16人提案第39條,增訂第二項以金錢或對價關係取得兒童或少年之性影響者處五年以下徒刑,"},{"start":23998.979,"end":24015.437,"text":"並科新台幣200萬元以下罰金其餘現行法同。委員柯智恩等19人提案第39條徵訂第一項最後一句文字,同時公佈姓名及照片,並依新侵害犯罪反制法第31條規定接受身心治療、輔導或教育。"},{"start":24017.139,"end":24038.486,"text":"曾定第二項最後一句文字,同時公布姓名及照片,依《性侵害犯罪防治法》第31條之規定接受身心治療、輔導或教育。曾定第三項最後一句文字,並依《性侵害犯罪防治法》第31條之規定接受身心治療、輔導或教育,須以現行法同,委員陳樹岳等。"},{"start":24039.306,"end":24065.374,"text":"厲十八人提案第三十九條、增訂第二項以金錢或對價關係取得兒童或少年之性影像者處五年以下有期徒刑並科新台幣二百萬元以下罰金其餘以現行法同。委員范雲等十七人擬具林俊憲等二十一人提案第三十九條第一項修正刑度處三年以下有期徒刑其餘以現行法同。委員林思明等二十四人"},{"start":24066.494,"end":24091.068,"text":"第三十九條,修正刑度與罰款額度如下。第一項,處三年以下有期徒刑、拘役或科或併科新台幣三十萬元以上、三百萬元以下罰金,並公布姓名與相片於主管機關網站,並供民眾查詢。第二項,處新台幣三萬元以上、十萬元以下罰款,並增訂最後一句文字,並公布姓名與相片於主管機關網站,並供民眾查詢。"},{"start":24093.803,"end":24105.039,"text":"第三項,處新台幣六萬元以上、三十萬元以下罰金,並得令其接受四小時以下之輔導教育,須以現行法同。"},{"start":24106.682,"end":24129.919,"text":"委員張雅琳等25人提案第39條修正刑度與罰款額度如下,第一項處一年以上、三年以下有歧途刑、拘役或科或併科新台幣十萬元以上、五十萬元以下罰金。增訂第二項無證章理由,故意下載兒童或少年之性一項處一年以上、三年以下有歧途刑、拘役或科或併科新台幣十萬元以上、五十萬元以下罰金。"},{"start":24130.7,"end":24156.03,"text":"原第二項、第一為第三項修正罰款額度儲清臺幣三萬元以上、十萬元以下罰還。原第三項、第一為第四項修正罰款額度儲清臺幣五萬元以上、五十萬元以下罰金。原第四項、第一為第五項查獲之第一項、第二項及第四項之附著物、土化及物品不問屬於犯罪行為人與否,莫說之其與現行法同。"},{"start":24158.274,"end":24178.391,"text":"委員陳培宇等19人提案第39條修正行度與罰款額度如下。第一項,處三年以下有期徒刑、居易或科或病科新台幣九萬元以上、九十萬元以下罰金。第二項,處新台幣三萬元以上、三十萬元以下罰款。第三項,處新台幣六萬元以上、六十萬元以下罰金及現行法同。"},{"start":24179.232,"end":24202.604,"text":"委員林岱琴等21人提案第39條第一項修正罰款額度,得併科新台幣三萬元以上、一百萬元以下罰金,其餘與現行罰同。委員林怡瑾等26人提案第39條之一,吳聖章理由購買兒童或少年之性以下處七年六月以下有期徒刑,"},{"start":24203.686,"end":24231.885,"text":"具役或科或病科新台幣七十五萬元以下罰金,無證單理由購買兒童或少年與性相關而客觀上足以引起性慾或羞恥之塗化、語音或其他物品,第一次被查獲者處新台幣一萬元以上十萬元以下罰款,並得令即接受二小時以上、十小時以下之輔導教育,其附著物、塗化及物品不問屬於持有人與否沒入之。"},{"start":24232.685,"end":24254.363,"text":"無正當理由購買兒童或少年與性相關而客觀上足以引起性慾或羞恥之塗化與因或其他物品第二次以上被查獲者,屬新台幣二萬元以上、二十萬元以下罰金。查獲之第一項及第三項之附著物、塗化及物品,不論屬於犯罪行為的人與否,莫收之。"},{"start":24255.816,"end":24277.327,"text":"委員徐曉欣等二十四人國民黨黨團提案。第四十條,修正刑度與罰款額度如下。第一項,處五年以下由期徒刑,得併科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金。第二項,處七年以下由期徒刑,得併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金,予以與現行法同。"},{"start":24278.187,"end":24296.098,"text":"委員陳冠廷等18人提案第四十條,修正刑度與罰款額度如下,第一項,處一年以上、三年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金。第二項,處一年以上、五年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金,其餘與現行法同。"},{"start":24297.479,"end":24325.375,"text":"委員鍾嘉斌等十九人提案第四十條修正行度如下第一項處六月以上五年以下有期徒刑第二項處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑取以以現行法同委員劉建國等十六人提案第四十條第二項修正罰款額度為併科三百萬元以下罰金取以以現行法同委員范雲等十七人提案"},{"start":24326.704,"end":24335.814,"text":"第四十條第一項第一句後段以宣傳品、出版品或"},{"start":24337.27,"end":24356.278,"text":"出版品、廣播、電視、電信、網際網路或其他方法、散布、傳送、刊登或粘貼主語、誘拐、引誘、媒介、暗示或其他使兒童或少年有遭受第二條、第一項、第一款至第三款非對價性交或猥褻行為之餘。"},{"start":24357.739,"end":24378.982,"text":"Judge 訊息者處三年以下有歧途型,得併科新台幣一百萬元以下罰金,其餘現行法同。委員范雲等十七人提案第四十條之一,十八歲以上之人透過通訊服務傳送上部具性意涵或或旨在鼓勵作出具性意涵之訊息"},{"start":24380.503,"end":24393.988,"text":"與十六歲以下之人處二、兩年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣一百萬元以下罰金,前項所稱具性意涵之訊息,包括文字、圖畫、照片、影片、影帶、觀點、電子訊號等材料。"},{"start":24402.588,"end":24425.305,"text":"委員黃健豪等17人提案第43條,分別修正第一項及第二項倒數第二具為頓耗第四項,其餘現行法同。委員鍾嘉斌等19人提案第43條,分別修正第一項及第二項末具為得減輕其刑,其餘現行法同。委員張雅琳等25人提案第43條,修正第一項倒數第二具為第二項頓耗第四項之犯罪者,其餘現行法同。委員陳廷飛等16人提案第44條,修正刑度與罰款額度如下。"},{"start":24428.627,"end":24454.159,"text":"除五年以下有期徒刑,得併科興台幣一百萬元以下罰金,其與現行罰同。委員葛禄君等十六人提案第四十四條,支付對價關染兒童或少年為性交或猥褻之行為或兒童或少年之性影像者,除一年以上三年以下有期徒刑,得併科興台幣三萬元以上三十萬元以下罰金,支付對價購買前項關染服務或性影像或取得其會員資格者一同。委員徐巧欣等二十四人提案第四十四條,"},{"start":24454.739,"end":24480.777,"text":"修正刑度及罰款金額如下。處六個月以上、五年以下有期徒刑。具役或科或病科新台幣十萬元以上、五十萬元以下罰金。其餘現行法同。委員廖偉祥等十八人提案第四十四條。支付對價關懶兒童或少年為性交或猥褻之行為或持有兒童及少年之性影響者。處三年以上、十年以下有期徒刑。具役或科或病科新台幣一百萬元以下罰金。委員王世堅等十六人提案第四十四條。"},{"start":24481.317,"end":24502.61,"text":"之父對價關乃兒童或少年為性教或猥褻之行為者,處三年以上五年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金。之父對價而持有兒童或少年之性影像者,依前項之規定處斷。查獲前項之附著物、圖畫及物品,不問屬於犯罪行為人與否,莫收之。國民黨黨團提案第四十四條,修正刑度。"},{"start":24502.81,"end":24503.731,"text":"則並科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金"},{"start":24528.692,"end":24548.067,"text":"因而持有者加重其刑至二分之一委員鍾嘉斌等十九人提案第四十四條修正刑度如下處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑而併科新台幣三萬元以上三十萬元以下罰金其予現行法同委員范雲等十七人提案第四十四條修正刑度如下處三年以下有期徒刑拘役其予現行法同"},{"start":24548.527,"end":24570.595,"text":"委員林俊憲等21人提案第44條,修正刑度及罰款金額如下,處一年以上、七年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣一百萬元以下罰金,持有現行法同。委員張雅玲等25人提案第44條,修正刑度及罰款金額如下,處一年以上、三年以下有期徒刑,居易或科或併科新台幣十萬元以上、五十萬元以下罰金,持有現行法同。"},{"start":24571.135,"end":24588.846,"text":"委員陳培鈺等19人提案第44條,修正刑度及罰款金額如下,處三年以下有期徒刑,拘役或科或併科新台幣九萬元以上九十萬元以下罰金,增訂第二項如下,支付兌價而持有兒童及少年之性影像者,依前項之規定處斷,其與現行法同。委員林岳晴等21人提案第44條,支付兌價關懶兒童或少年為性交或猥褻之行為者,處三年以下有期徒刑,"},{"start":24597.872,"end":24616.04,"text":"則併科新台幣三萬元以上、一百萬元以下罰金,無正當理由購買取得違反第四章規定之網際網路內容提供者之會員資格,並有適時逐任支付對價取得兒童或少年性影響者,除一年以下有期徒刑。具役或科或併科新台幣三萬元以上、三十萬元以下罰金。"},{"start":24617,"end":24631.554,"text":"委員張雅琳等二十五人提案,增訂第四十四條之一如下,無正當理由故意觀覽兒童或少年為性教或猥褻之行為或性影響者,處一年以下有期徒刑拘役或科或併科新台幣三萬元以上、三十萬元以下罰金。"},{"start":24633.188,"end":24648.526,"text":"委員徐喬興等24人提案第45條,修正刑度與罰則如下。第一項,處新台幣一百萬元以上、五百萬元以下罰還,並令其一個月內限期改善。藉其為改善者,由直轄市縣市主管機關,以請目的事業主管機關依法勒令停業。"},{"start":24649.187,"end":24671.819,"text":"第二項,處三年以上、十年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣一百萬元以下罰金。第三項,處五年以上、十二年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金,其與現行法同。國民黨黨團提案第45條,修正刑度與罰則如下第一項,處新台幣五十萬元以上、五百萬元以下罰還,並令其限期改善,藉其為改善者由直轄市縣市主管機關以行目的事業主管機關依法令"},{"start":24672.879,"end":24700.307,"text":"依法令其勒令停頁。第二項,處三年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金。第三項,處五年以上十年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金,其與現行法同。委員鍾佳冰等十九人提案第四十五條,修正刑度如下。第二項,處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑。第三項,處五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑,其與現行法同。委員劉建國等十六人提案第四十五條,修正刑度與罰款額度如下。第二項,處五年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣一"},{"start":24701.767,"end":24730.587,"text":"第三項,處三年以上、七年以下有期徒刑,則並科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金,其餘現行法同。委員林岱樺等20人提案第四十七條,修正序文第三句為,由目的事業主管機關處新台幣一百萬元以下罰還,命修正第一款為,一違反第八條第一項規定,未先行移除,其餘現行法同。委員陳冠廷等十八人提案第四十七條,修正序文第三句為,由目的事業主管機關處新台幣二十萬元以下五百萬元以下罰還,其餘現行法同。委員陳金輝等十六人提案第四十七條,"},{"start":24731.147,"end":24754.729,"text":"修正第二款第二具為為保留資料一年其餘現行法同。委員陳佩玉等19人提案第47條修正序文第三具為由目的事業主管機關處新台幣二十萬元以上、一百萬元以下罰款,並修正第一款為一違反第八條第一項規定為先行移除其餘現行法同。委員林岱琴等21人提案第47條刪除第一項第三具目的事業等文字,增訂第二項如下。"},{"start":24755.45,"end":24782.417,"text":"除前項情形外,任網頁資料有第四章之犯罪嫌疑情勢,非立即移除該資訊或限制其接取或採取適當之流量管理措施者,他人利益將遭受難以回復之重大損害或有急迫必要性,為阻止犯罪危害之發生或避免急迫危險,主管機關得先令限制接取或採取適當之流量管理措施,並於三日內向法院申請緊急資訊限制令。法院認為不"},{"start":24783.537,"end":24807.68,"text":"應准許者應於二十四小時內撤銷之。其餘現行法同。委員李昆城等22人提案第五十條。修正第一項默惡據如下。由各目的事業主管機關儲新台幣十萬元以上、一百萬元以下罰還,並得按次處罰。其餘現行法同。委員林思明等24人提案第五十條。修正第一項默惡據如下。儲新台幣十萬元以上、一百萬元以下罰還。其餘現行法同。委員黃捷等20人提案第五十一條。"},{"start":24808.3,"end":24814.466,"text":"犯第31條第2項、第36條第1項、第38條第1項、第39條第1項至第3項或第44條之罪、經判決有罪或還起訴處分確定者,指下是先知主管機關應對其實施4小時以上、50小時以下之輔導教育或72小時之身心治療。前項輔導教育或身心治療屆滿前,經評估任有繼續執行之必要者,"},{"start":24829.801,"end":24854.102,"text":"直轄市縣市主管機關得延長之福島教育延長不得於二十小時,身心治療不得於二十四小時。第一項福島教育及身心治療之執行,主管機關得協調矯正機關與犯罪行為人服刑期間辦理,矯正機關應提供場地及必要之協助。無證當理而不接受第一項之福島教育或身心治療或拒不完成其實述者,處刑台幣六千元以上三萬元以下罰還,並得按次處罰。"},{"start":24855.703,"end":24869.452,"text":"第1項輔導、教育及生氣治療之內容、程序、期間及其他相關事項由中央主管機關定之。委員黃建豪等17人提案第51條。修正第1項前段文字如下。犯第31條第2項、第36條第2項、第38條第1項、第39條第1項、第3項、第4項或第44條之罪。其餘與現行法同。委員李昆城等22人提案第51條。"},{"start":24878.638,"end":24893.006,"text":"修正第三項倒數第二具為儲新台幣六千元以上六萬元以下罰還。增訂第四項及第五項如下。犯第三十一條第二項、第三十六條第一項、第三十八條第一項、第三十九條第一項至第三項或第四十四條之罪,經判決有罪。"},{"start":24893.706,"end":24922.162,"text":"或還起訴處分確定者,經評估任有施以身心治療之必要者,直轄市縣市主管機關應令其接受身心治療。無正當理由不接受前項之身心治療者,處心台幣一萬元以上、八萬元以下罰還,並得按次處罰。其餘現行法同。委員黃建斌等18人提案第五十一條,修正第一項默據為,直轄市縣市主管機關應對其實施十小時以上五十小時以下之輔導教育。其餘現行法同。委員萬梅林等20人提案第五十一條,"},{"start":24922.702,"end":24928.147,"text":"修正第一項如下。犯第31條、第二項、第36條、第一項、第38條、第一項、第二項、第39條、第一項、第三項、第40條或第44條之罪、經判決有罪或還起訴處分確定者,直轄市縣市主管機關應對其實施八小時以上、一百小時以下之輔導、教育、其餘現行法同。"},{"start":24942.418,"end":24957.919,"text":"委員何新淳等16人提案第五十一條,修正第一項後段如下:「精英評估任有施以身心治療、輔導或教育之必要者,只想事先是主管機關應令其接受身心治療、輔導或教育。」刪除現行第二項及第三項,並新增第二、三、四項如下。"},{"start":24958.74,"end":24983.111,"text":"前項規定對於犯罪後經驅逐或限制或限令出境者不適用之。第一項之執行期間為三年以下。執行期間見覽前,經評估任有繼續執行之必要者,指下施限制主管機關得延長之最長不得於一年。其無繼續執行之必要者,得停止其處分之執行。前項經評估任無繼續執行之必要者,與其登記報到期間經評估任有施以身心治療、輔導或教育之必要。"},{"start":24983.931,"end":25007.987,"text":"直轄市縣市主管機關應令其在接受身心治療、輔導或教育其執行期間應與並記且不得於前項執行期間之規定其與現行法同。委員陳素悅等18人提案第五十一條修正第一項具中文字為經判決有罪或還起訴處分確定並經評估其與與委員何新淳等16人提案同。委員范雲等17人提案第五十一條修正第一項莫具為"},{"start":25008.567,"end":25011.351,"text":"直轄市縣市儲管機關應對其實施八小時以上、五十小時以下之輔導教育,並修正第三項莫具為並得按次處罰至其參加為止,其餘與現行法同。委員林均憲等21人提案第51條第一項具莫增列文字如下。"},{"start":25025.189,"end":25048.164,"text":" bicy 任有施以身心治療、輔導或教育之必要者,直轄市縣市主管機關應令其接受身心治療、輔導或教育修正第二項具首為前項輔導、教育、身心治療之執行,並修正第三項如下。無證當理由不接受第一項或第三十九條第二項之輔導、教育、身心治療或具不完整輔導、教育之實屬者,處新台幣六千元以上、三萬元以下罰還,並得按次處罰。"},{"start":25055.569,"end":25076.42,"text":"修正第一項末具為縣市主管機關應對其實施八小時以上、五十小時以下之輔導、教育。修正第二項末二具如下,處心台幣三萬元以上、十萬元以下罰款,並得按次處罰,其餘現行法同。委員張雅玲等25人提案第五十一條,修正第一項及第三項如下,犯第三十一條第二項、第三十六條第二"},{"start":25078.041,"end":25103.296,"text":"第一項、第三十八條、第一項、第三十九條、第一項、第二項、第四項、第四十四條或第四十四條之一之罪經判決有罪或還起訴處分確定者直轄市縣市主管機關應對其實施四小時以上、五十小時以下之輔導教育必要時並得公布其姓名或名稱。無正當理由不接受第一項或第三十九條第三項之輔導教育或拒不完成其實訴者處刑台幣六千元以上、三萬元以下罰還。"},{"start":25104.296,"end":25110.74,"text":"並得按次處罰。區域現行法同委員林岱琴等21人提案第51條修正第一項默劇為直轄市縣市主管機關應對其實施四小時以上、五十小時以下之輔導教育或七十二小時之身心治療增訂第二項如下前項輔導教育或身心治療建馬前"},{"start":25122.306,"end":25138.071,"text":"經評估,任由繼續執行之必要者、直轄市縣市主管機關得延長之,輔導教育延長不得於二十小時,身心治療不得於二十四小時。修正現行第二項守具為第一項輔導教育及身心治療之執行,並以列為第三項。修正現行第三項。"},{"start":25139.051,"end":25157.269,"text":"守據為,無證當理由不接受第一項之輔導、教育或身心治療,並以列為第四項,增訂第五項如下。第一項輔導、教育及身心治療之內容、程序、期間及其他相關事項由中央主管機關定之,其餘現行法同。委員黃建豪等17人提案增訂第五十一條之一如下。"},{"start":25158.91,"end":25179.631,"text":"護導教育實施完畢後,經評估任有施以身心治療之必要者、直轄市縣市主管機關應令其接受身心治療,前向之執行期間為三年以下,執行期間屆滿前。經評估任有繼續執行之必要者、直轄市縣市主管機關得延長之最長不得於一年,其無繼續執行之必要者得停止其處分之執行,將還人於徒刑執行期滿前。"},{"start":25182.253,"end":25209.092,"text":"接受身心治療或輔導教育後,經評估任有災犯之風險者,準用性侵害犯罪防治法有關強制治療規定。前三項之評估準用性侵害犯罪防治法第三十三條成立評估小組辦理。委員黃捷等21人提案,暫定第五十一條之一如下,犯第三十六條、第三十八條、第三十九條條文之罪供出性剝削影片來源,因而查獲其他正犯或共犯者,得減輕或免除其刑。"},{"start":25210.993,"end":25234.406,"text":"犯第三十六條、第三十八條、第三十九條之罪與偵查及立次審判中均自白者,得減輕其刑。委員林俊憲等21人提案,增訂第五十一條之一如下,前條之評估由指甲師縣市主管機關成立評估小組辦理,讓扶圖行之成年受刑人由監獄、少年受刑人及受感化教育少年由少年矯正學校成立評估小組辦理,"},{"start":25235.206,"end":25248.492,"text":"前項評估小組織組成與其評估之內容基準程序與身心治療之內容程序期間及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關會同法務主管機關定之。委員張雅玲等25人提案第53條修正手具"},{"start":25250.533,"end":25278.186,"text":"第三十九條、第二項為第三十九條、第三項其與現行法同。委員外媒林等二十人提案第五十三條之一修正末二具為於修正施行後仍繼續持有或關懷者適用修正後之規定其與現行法同。繼續宣讀修正動議第一案。第三條,增訂第八至第十項如下。"},{"start":25280.173,"end":25306.028,"text":"為協助被害人限制瀏覽或移除兒童或少年這性影像,中央主管機關得自行或委由民間團體成立性影像處理中心,並涉專職人員辦理下列事項。一、受理性影像申訴、諮詢查查。二、通知網際網路平台提供者、網際網路應用服務提供者及網際網路接取服務提供者以下並稱網路業者,限制瀏覽或移除兒童或少年這性影像。三、其他性影像防制相關業務。"},{"start":25307.509,"end":25328.727,"text":"司法、警察、檢察官得運用科技技術方式於網路巡查涉兒童或少年性影像犯罪嫌疑情勢。網路業者對於前項巡查不得拒絕、妨礙或規避。第八條,於第一項文字透過網際內容防護機構後面增列性影像處理中心並增訂第四項如下。"},{"start":25330.086,"end":25349.791,"text":"性影像處理中心得知網頁資料涉有兒童及少年之性影像犯罪嫌疑情勢應通知網路業者、警察機關及中央主管機關。第三十九條,無正當理由支付對價而持有兒童或少年之性影像處一年以上、七年以下有期徒刑。居易或客或併客新台幣一百五十萬元以下罰金。"},{"start":25350.931,"end":25367.829,"text":"無證當理由持有兒童或少年之性以上、處一年以上、五年以下有期徒刑、拘役或科或併科新台幣三十萬元以上、一百萬元以下罰金。修正現行第二項具中如下。第一次被查獲者處新台幣五萬元以上、三十萬元以下罰還,並一列為第三項。"},{"start":25370.376,"end":25391.43,"text":"修正現行第三項後段如下,第二次以上被查獲者處新台幣十萬元以上、五十萬元以下罰款,並一列為第四項。修正第五項如下,查獲之第一項、第二項及第四項之附著物、圖畫及物品,不問屬於犯罪行為人與否,莫收之。第四十七條,修正第一款如下,"},{"start":25392.33,"end":25418.771,"text":"一、違反第三條第十項之規定拒絕妨礙或規避其予現行法同提案人委員陳金輝、蘇清泉、王育敏第二案第二條修正第三款前段如下三、拍攝製造、重製、持有、散布、播送、交付、公然陳列、販賣或支付對價關攬兒童或少年性影像其予現行法同"},{"start":25420.421,"end":25435.629,"text":"第三條,將第五項移至第四項後段如下。其中學者、專家及民間相關機構、團體代表不得少於二分之一、任意性別不得少於三分之一,增訂第五項至第七項如下。"},{"start":25438,"end":25458.269,"text":"為協助被害人限制瀏覽或移除兒童或少年之性影像,中央主管機關得自行或委用民間團體成立性影像處理中心,並涉專職人員辦理下列事項一、受理性影像申訴、諮詢查查。二、通知網際網路平台提供者、網際網路應用服務提供者及網際網路接取提供服務者。"},{"start":25458.849,"end":25480.174,"text":"而服務提供者以下並稱網路業者限制瀏覽或移除兒童或少年性影像。三、其他性影像防制相關業務。司法、警察、檢察官得運用科技技術方式與網路巡查涉兒童或少年性影像犯罪嫌疑情勢。網路業者對於前項巡查不得拒絕、妨礙或規避。"},{"start":25484.158,"end":25507.094,"text":"第八條,修正第一項前段如下。網路業者透過網路內容防護機構、性影像處理中心、主管機關、警察機關或其他機關。修正第三項後段如下。第一項之網路業者於計數可行下因依直轄市縣市主管機關通知比對、移除或下架被害人之性影像。增訂第四項及第五項如下。"},{"start":25507.694,"end":25522.097,"text":"性影像處理中心得知網頁資料涉有兒童或少年之性影像犯罪嫌疑情勢者應通知網路業者、警察機關及中央主管機關。前項通知應記載下列事項。一、足以"},{"start":25523.631,"end":25536.807,"text":"視別犯罪嫌疑情勢之網站名稱與網址及性影像之網址。二、行為人網路平台帳號或網際網路協定位置。三、通知之國家機關聯絡人姓名、電話及電子"},{"start":25538.124,"end":25561.814,"text":"電子郵件中央主管機關收受第一項通知後應及令網路業者於二十四小時內依第一項規定限制瀏覽或移除與犯罪有關之網頁資料。前項處分內容應記載下列事項一、足以識別犯罪嫌疑情勢之網站名稱與網址及姓影像之網址。二、行為人網路平台帳號或網際網路協定位置。三、通知之國家機關聯絡人姓名、電話及電子郵件。"},{"start":25564.295,"end":25579.033,"text":"四、網路業者網站名稱、網址、網際網路協定位置或其他足資辨別指涉之該網路業者特徵。五、主旨、事實、理由及其法令依據。六、由付款者付款之內容。"},{"start":25579.814,"end":25604.58,"text":"議員七、處分機關及其首長署名蓋章該機關有代理人或受任何人須同時與其下簽名但以自動機器作為之大量行政處分,得不經署名得以蓋章為之。議員八、發文字號及年月日。議員九、表明其為行政處分之意旨及不符行政處分之救濟方法其間及其受理機關。"},{"start":25607.028,"end":25628.838,"text":"第八條之一,增訂第八條之一,主管機關對網路業者依前條及第四十七條作成之行政處分,得以電子文件利用網際網路之方式傳送至網路業者公開揭示、指示或網域註冊之電子郵件、電子表單,以為送達。前項電子文件由主管機關傳送至網路業者,"},{"start":25629.258,"end":25658.09,"text":"公開揭示指定或網域註冊之電子郵件、電子表單後一工作日發生依法送達通知或使其窒息之效力但有下列情形之一者不在此限。一、電子文件已傳送而未進入網路業者公開揭示指定或網域註冊之電子郵件、電子表單。二、電子文件已進入網路業者公開揭示指定或網域註冊之電子郵件、電子表單後一工作日。網路業者"},{"start":25658.59,"end":25673.61,"text":" bicy明其無法閱讀。三、網路業者證明電子文件於較早或較晚之時點進入其公開揭示、時事或網域註冊之電子郵件、電子表單。前項單書第一款,情形有爭議時,"},{"start":25674.531,"end":25700.374,"text":"由主管機關證明,主管機關不能證明者應另以適當之方式重新送達、通知或使其知悉。第二項但書第二款情形,主管機關應另以適當之方式重新送達、通知或使其知悉。第二項但書第三款情形,依網路業者證明較早或較晚之時點,發生依法送達、通知或使其知悉之效力,有效的情形之一者主管機關得為限制接取。"},{"start":25700.854,"end":25726.534,"text":"一、無從窒息網路業者聯絡資訊,自無法為第一項之送達者。二、任網頁資料所涉犯罪嫌疑情節重大,為避免犯罪危害擴大或避免急迫危險而有及時處置之必要時,主管機關為執行前項及第四十七條之限制接取,數位發展部、教育部、國家通訊傳播委員會、法務部、內政部、警政署、網際網路接取服務提供者應協助執行。"},{"start":25730.199,"end":25753.938,"text":"第二十八條修正第一項文字第三十九條第一項第三項之罪者為第三十九條第二項第四項之罪者其與現行法同。第三十六條於第一二三及第七項文字製造後面增列頓號重置其與現行法同。第三十九條"},{"start":25757.731,"end":25782.892,"text":"無正當理由支付對價額持有兒童或少年之性影像,處一年以上、七年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣十萬元以上、一百萬元以下罰金。無正當理由持有兒童或少年之性影像,處三年以下有期徒刑,具役得併科新台幣六萬元以上、六十萬元以下罰金。修正現行第二項據中如下。第一次被查獲者,處新台幣一萬元以上、十萬元以下罰還,並已列為第三項。"},{"start":25784.033,"end":25804.119,"text":"令修正現行第三項後段如下,第二次以上被查獲者處新台幣二萬元以上、二十萬元以下罰還,並一列為第四項。第五項,查獲之第一項、第二項及第四項之附著物、圖畫及物品,不問屬於犯罪行為人與否,莫收之,其與現行法同。"},{"start":25806.889,"end":25834.283,"text":"第四十三條,修正第一項及第二項文字,第39條第一項、第三項之犯罪者為,第39條第一項、第二項、第四項之犯罪者,其與現行法同。第四十四條,支付對價關攬兒童或少年為性交或猥褻之行為或其性影響者處一年以上、七年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣十萬元以上、一百萬元以下罰金。"},{"start":25835.802,"end":25862.854,"text":"第四十七條修正序文第三具為由主管機關處心台幣六萬元以上、六十萬元以下罰還並修正第一款如下依違反第三條第七項規定拒絕妨礙或規避其與現行法同。第五十一條修正第一項文字第39條第一項第三項為第39條第一項、第二項、第四項其與現行法同。"},{"start":25864.858,"end":25875.312,"text":"第五十三條修正具首文字為第39條第三項其餘現行法同提案人委員黃秀芳、王振旭、林月琴。第三案第三條"},{"start":25878.737,"end":25894.732,"text":"及第八條、之一與委員黃玉敏等19人提案同。第三十六條、修正刑度與罰金額度如下。第一項處十年以上有期徒刑,則併科新台幣200萬元以下罰金。第二項處十二年以上有期徒刑,則併科新台幣600萬元以下罰金。"},{"start":25897.034,"end":25909.811,"text":"第三項處十五年以上有期徒刑得併科新台幣一千萬元以下罰金。其餘現行法同提案人、委員王育敏、陳金輝、林思敏、楊瓊英。第四案"},{"start":25910.834,"end":25930.351,"text":"第三條,第二項與委員黃玉明等19人提案同。另將第五項一致為第四項,修正如下。主管機關應邀及相關學者或專家、民間相關機構、團體代表及目的事業主管機關代表協調研究審議、諮詢、推動及檢討兒童及少年性剝削防制政策"},{"start":25930.911,"end":25953.481,"text":"其中學者、專家及民間相關機構、團體代表不得少於二分之一、任意性別不得少於三分之一,增訂第五、六、七項如下。為協助被害人限制瀏覽或移除兒童或少年之性影像,中央主管機關得自行或委由民間團體成立性影像處理中心,並涉專職人員辦理下的事項。一、受理性影像申訴、諮詢、查查。"},{"start":25955.402,"end":25984.195,"text":"二、通知網際網路平台提供者、網際網路應用服務提供者及網際網路接取服務提供者以下並稱網路業者限制瀏覽或移除兒童或少年性影像。三、其他性影像防制相關業務司法、檢察官得運用科技技術方式與網路巡查社兒童或少年性影像犯罪嫌疑情勢。網路業者對於前項巡查不得拒絕、妨礙或規避。提案人委員王育敏"},{"start":25985.81,"end":26006.758,"text":"陳昭之、陳金輝、廖偉祥同為第四案、第八條之一與委員黃秀芳、王振旭與林岱琴委員所提的修正動議第八條之一相同提案人委員王育敏、陳昭之、陳金輝、廖偉祥第五案、第三十二條"},{"start":26007.887,"end":26026.275,"text":"修正刑度或罰款額度如下。第一項,處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑。第二項,處五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑,並科新台幣七百萬元以下罰金。第三項,處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑,其與先行法同。"},{"start":26026.775,"end":26053.309,"text":"第36條,修正刑度與罰金額度如下。第一項,處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金。第二項,處五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金。第三項,處十年以上有期徒刑,得併科新台幣一千萬元以下罰金,其餘現行法同。第45條,修正刑度與罰金額度如下。第二項,處五年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣一百萬元以下罰金。"},{"start":26054.309,"end":26068.19,"text":"第三項,處三年以上、十年以下有期徒刑,得兵科薪台幣三百萬元以下罰金,其餘現行法同。提案人委員劉建國、連署人委員林岱琴、陳俊宇"},{"start":26070.285,"end":26097.103,"text":"第六案,修正第一項第三款,後段如下,與性相關而客觀上足以引起性慾或羞恥,以真人所繪製之色情圖畫及電磁記錄生成之擬真色情圖畫與因或其他物品,其與現行法同。第三十六條,第一二三及第七項具中文字之修正於本案第二條,第三款同。"},{"start":26098.345,"end":26120.597,"text":"令修正行度與額度如下。第一項,處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金。第二項,處五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金。第三項,處十年以上有期徒刑或無期徒刑,並併科新台幣七百萬元以下罰金,其餘現行法同。"},{"start":26125.843,"end":26154.275,"text":"厲三十八條、第一項及第二項具中文字之修正於本案第二條第三款同令修正第一項行度如下。處三年以上、十年以下有期徒刑。令修正第五項莫具如下。莫收並於案件判決確定後銷毀之其與現行法同。厲三十九條、第二項及第四項具中文字之修正於本案第二條第三款同並修正額度及罰則如下。"},{"start":26155.155,"end":26162.481,"text":"一、併科新台幣30萬元以上、100萬元以下罰金。二、儲新台幣5萬元以上、30萬元以下罰還,並得令其接受10小時之輔導教育。三、儲新台幣10萬元以上、100萬元以下罰金。四、"},{"start":26171.28,"end":26185.569,"text":"沒收並於判決確定後銷毀之其餘現行法同提案人委員陳金輝、羅廷偉、連署人委員王洪維、林思明、廖偉祥第七案第二條修正第一項第三款如下"},{"start":26186.818,"end":26216.038,"text":"三、拍攝、製造、散布、播送、交付公然陳列販賣或持有兒童或少年性影像與性相關而客觀上足以引起刺激或滿足性慾且無藝術性、醫學性或教育性價值而令一般人感覺不堪、呈現於眾或不能忍受而排拒之圖畫、語音或其他物品以下稱性圖畫影音物品。其餘現行法同提案人委員黃國昌、陳昭芝、王育敏"},{"start":26217.998,"end":26243.245,"text":"第36條第一項拍攝製造兒童或少年之性影像、性圖畫影音物品者處三年以上、十年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金。修正第二項製造性影像後面的文字如下。性影像影音物品者處五年以上、十二年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金。修正第三項製造性影像後面文字如下。"},{"start":26244.105,"end":26270.357,"text":"信、圖畫、影音、物品者處七年以上有期徒刑,得併科新台幣七百萬元以下罰金。修正第四項,文字如下。意圖營利犯前三項之罪者,依下列規定處罰。一、犯第一項之罪者,處五年以上有期徒刑,得併科新台幣一千萬元以下罰金。二、犯第二項之罪者,處七年以上有期徒刑,得併科新台幣一千五百萬元以下罰金。三、犯第三項之罪者,處十年以上有期徒刑,"},{"start":26270.717,"end":26294.417,"text":"得併科興臺幣二千萬元以下罰金。令修正第七項如下,物品之工具或設備,不問屬於犯罪行為人與否,莫熟知,但屬於被害人者,不在此縣,其與現行法同。第三十八條,散布、播送、交付公然陳列或以他法公人官欄、聽聞兒童或少年之性影像、性圖畫影印物品者,處三年以上、十年以下有期徒刑。得併科興臺幣五百萬元以下罰金。"},{"start":26296.278,"end":26319.168,"text":"議徒散布撥送交付或公欄陳列而持有前相互評者,處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金。議徒迎立犯前二項之罪者,以下列規定處罰。一、犯第一項之罪者,處五年以上有期徒刑,得併科新台幣一千萬元以下罰金。二、犯第二項之罪者,處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金。"},{"start":26320.188,"end":26347.302,"text":"第一項及第三項之未遂犯罰之查獲之第一項之第三項之附著物、塗化及物品不問屬於犯罪行為人與否,莫收之。第三十九條,無證當理由持有兒童或少年性影像者,處三年以下有期徒刑拘役並科新台幣三十萬元以上三百萬元以下罰金。支付對價取得兒童或少年性影像者,處六月以上五年以下有期徒刑,得並科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金。無證當理由持有兒童或少年性影像"},{"start":26348.752,"end":26363.27,"text":"之性圖畫影音物品,第一次被查獲者處新台幣五萬元上五十萬元下罰還,並得令其接受五小時以上、十五小時以下之輔導教育,其附著物、圖畫及物品不謂屬於此有人與否,莫入之。"},{"start":26364.537,"end":26392.145,"text":"五、政當理由持有兒童或少年之性塗化影印物品第二次以上被查獲者處新台幣十萬元以上、一百萬元以下罰金。查獲之第一項、第二項及第三項之附著物、塗化及物品不問屬於犯罪行為人與否莫收之。第四、四條支付對家關懷兒童或少年為性交惡猥褻之行為者處六個月以上、五年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金。第四十五條修正刑度與罰則如下。第一項"},{"start":26392.905,"end":26408.112,"text":"處新台幣五十萬元以上、五百萬元以下罰還,並令其限期改善,藉其未改善者由直轄市縣市主管機關移情目的事業主管機關依法令其勒令停業。第二項,處三年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣三百萬元以下罰金。"},{"start":26409.292,"end":26437.968,"text":"第三項,處五年以上十二年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金。第四項,意圖營利犯前二項之罪者,依下列規定處罰。一、犯第二項之罪者,處一年以上七年以下有期徒刑,得併科新台幣五百萬元以下罰金。二、犯第三項之罪者,處七年以上有期徒刑,得併科新台幣一千萬元以下罰金。前三項之未遂犯罰之,其餘現行罰同。提案人委員黃國昌、陳昭芝、王育敏。還有第八。"},{"start":26438.43,"end":26466.046,"text":"第八案,總共十一案因為委員都來了因為現在宣讀的這個都是修正動議按照過去其實修正動議是也可以不用宣讀那現在因為有很多委員已經到場所以那個對,就是以下八到十一案這個修正動議"},{"start":26467.432,"end":26480.489,"text":"請委員參考書面資料我們現在就來進行逐條的審查那現在進行兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案暨三十六案之逐條審查"},{"start":26482.279,"end":26508.833,"text":"每條條文先請行政單位說明接著請委員表示意見因為我們其實還有禮拜三一整天的審查所以待會我們審查的原則如果遇到這個條文還需要有很多討論的我就會先宣告先保留有共識的我們先通過如果還要再多加一討論的我們就先保留都保留到禮拜三比較多時間我們再來討論"},{"start":26514.06,"end":26514.702,"text":"主席"},{"start":26517.383,"end":26545.618,"text":"好 那所有委員提的這個修正動議均列入公報記錄會刊登所以這個委員不用擔心那我們現在就來進行主條的審查那也謝謝衛福部其實有整理了一份對照板那一份對照板還蠻清晰的所以是不是給各位委員各位委員都有拿到嗎 有發下去了嗎各位委員手上都有我們就依衛福部所整理出來的對照板來進行"},{"start":26547.651,"end":26549.152,"text":"第二條一共有五個版本,做三點說明。第一個,在第一項第三款甄列了行為樣態的文字。"},{"start":26568.166,"end":26576.394,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":26586.423,"end":26594.012,"text":"重置持有支付對價關懶,直接納入第一項第三款的定義,來擴大被害人的保護範疇。"},{"start":26603.624,"end":26614.472,"text":"把第一項第三款所稱的圖畫範定在以深層式人工智慧製造、擬真繪圖或以真實存在的兒童或少年作為創作背景的色情圖畫為限。其餘的兒少與性相關、客觀上足以引起性慾或羞恥的圖畫,仍然有刑法235條的規定,"},{"start":26632.785,"end":26650.229,"text":"此外,也應該要按照《兒童及少年福利與權益保障法》的四十六條規定,網際網路業者要採取明確可行的防護措施,限制兒童及少年接取、瀏覽,以致明確。以上說明。好,針對第二條的條文的修正,衛福部有一個建議修正的條文。那請問各位委員,針對第二條,"},{"start":26663.042,"end":26688.944,"text":"衛福部所提出來的建議修正的文字大家有沒有意見?黃國昌總召來我確認一下那個衛福部的修正的文字在是這個嗎?確定一下我有沒有拿到是這個嗎?就是這個版本"},{"start":26693.799,"end":26715.714,"text":"最左手邊就是本部建議修正條文那個就是衛福部的版本那個我先請教一下就是說今天我們有提一個修正動議那那個修正動議也謝謝那個召委王育敏簽名讓我們有機會可以一起納入討論那就針對那個修正動議的第二條"},{"start":26719.229,"end":26733.826,"text":"我們提的那個修正動議那修正動議我們基本上是希望啦因為我上次在質詢的時候我有提到嘛就是說如果我們在條文上面沒有把它寫得很清楚的話"},{"start":26734.875,"end":26757.192,"text":"那到時候檢察官在起訴的行為上或法官在判決的行為上那會不要去造成一些現在可能一些創作者他們的困擾那也不是兒少性剝削防制條例所真的要去處理規範的對象那再加上說後面法條"},{"start":26758.493,"end":26772.471,"text":"我們希望法條可以簡潔一點所謂法條可以簡潔一點我分兩個部分來說明第一個現影像不帶說明討論現影像我相信非常清楚這個沒有爭議現在有爭議的就是說"},{"start":26775.314,"end":26803.957,"text":"所謂與性相關而客觀上足以引起性慾或羞恥之圖畫、語音或其他物品。那你們發現在後面的關鍵條文當中36、38、39以下都會露露等啦那我基本上希望採行的立法技術是在第二條第三款的時候我們把它要界定的範圍按照大法官解釋的意旨"},{"start":26805.558,"end":26828.404,"text":"把他標定清楚,把大法官那個時候視線文的時候,他們希望判定的標準也直接能夠把它入法。入法了以後,用一個以下稱性圖畫影音物品這樣子的一個縮寫,讓後面的法條的文字也可以比較簡潔一點。"},{"start":26829.924,"end":26858.189,"text":"因為我們這次所提出來的這樣子的一個修正的動議跟我們後面針對幾個核心的關鍵條文從製造散播持有的條文彼此之間是相配合的針對這樣子的一個立法體力想要聽聽看主管機關的看法以上謝謝好謝謝還有沒有其他委員針對第二條來羅廷惠委員"},{"start":26859.892,"end":26880.743,"text":"好那因為我的版本也還沒進來喔所以我先做這個修正東西也非常感謝昭緯喔那我想這個第二條啊原本定義的圖畫再寫得更詳細其實跟這個國常委員的類似喔那我們就聚焦在這個處理真實兒童及少年免於性虐待性交易等問題把文字寫得更詳細喔所以所以我們"},{"start":26882.844,"end":26903.32,"text":"以真人所繪製之色情圖畫及電池記錄生成之擬真色情圖畫。寫進第二條的一個定義裡面,三十六、三十八、三十九,同樣也是把圖畫的定義與修正。我認為之前的定義在真人圖片跟虛擬的一個作品之間過於模糊。"},{"start":26903.94,"end":26928.409,"text":"而且目前並無真實研究有在地的一個經驗支持說觀看色情兒少動漫會對真人兒少採取實際的行動如果有實證研究請衛福部提出如果沒有的話我認為應該要去修法去排除那個圖片我們仍然覺得這個應該要管制當然我們也覺得作為這個孩子的家長我們也會擔憂"},{"start":26930.328,"end":26953.434,"text":"但是這個部分我們希望說不是包山包海的去讓這些動漫、繪圖等相關的產業權益他們的這些族群來受損所以我在做這個修正動議也希望這個部分能夠來這邊發言謝謝好那剛剛有舉手的是黃秀芳委員接下來林淑芬委員"},{"start":26955.71,"end":26963.039,"text":"第二條提出修正動議,最主要部分是有關重置持有或支付對價關攬納入修正條文第36條、第39條及第44條,列為處罰的樣態。"},{"start":26971.209,"end":26993.656,"text":"而相關文字納入第一項第三款定義以擴大第二項的保護對象,就是被害人的範疇,那希望大家能夠支持。另外本席也想就這一條的定義的部分,就是請法務部還有司法院表示意見,就是在這些定義當中將持有還有支付對價關懶納入條文中之後,那對於共犯的定義,"},{"start":26994.636,"end":26997.278,"text":"公範定義與現行條文及現實狀況,法院或檢察機關的認定上,會否有所不同?法務部及司法院可表示意見。"},{"start":27014.793,"end":27022.203,"text":"好,我們這個第三款裡面的圖畫、語音或其他物品在立法說明欄裡面有講什麼叫做圖畫圖畫我們是採取這個正面表列講在這些範疇裡面才是這個性剝削的範疇"},{"start":27032.196,"end":27036.219,"text":"可是我其實有一點擔心就是說我們也是想請那個檢審兩個單位來表示一下意見萬一掛萬漏一為什麼這麼講呢因為去年大修也是號稱大修就漏掉了支付對價關攬這樣的一個概念在裡面"},{"start":27049.007,"end":27067.853,"text":"今天我們在這裡就覺得這樣子好像來框定這個圖畫的範疇是不是就夠了其實我也不敢這樣子肯定的說出來所以我們是希望請實務單位的不管是檢警省大概大家都表示一下意見還有沒有其他超越我們能夠正常人能夠想像的範疇因為畢竟我們正常人想像的範疇有限"},{"start":27072.654,"end":27084.718,"text":"另外一個就是說這個所謂的剛剛黃委員講的這個共犯的定義秀芳委員講的共犯的定義我想要指出一種就是說這個創意司法裡面有一種共犯是說他讓這個支付對價關懶的這個人"},{"start":27090.34,"end":27101.346,"text":"而他可以點餐然後那個社群網站性犯罪的網站的人可以去出任務那這個點餐的人那他在這個行為上到底是屬於教唆的什麼東西或是什麼東西我覺得這個行為是不是其實是相當可惡他不是支付錢去對價關懶而已他還可以點餐然後出任務這個這種行為要放到哪裡去規範我想我們也是要思考一下"},{"start":27119.397,"end":27120.592,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":27124.765,"end":27149.067,"text":"我具體建議一下因為第二條裡面的定義其實我們把行為跟要保護的客體兩件事情在立法基礎上寫在同一個條文裡去加以定義那剛剛有很多委員所提出來討論的意見其實我剛剛比較著重的是保護的客體對象的問題"},{"start":27151.509,"end":27167.191,"text":"有許多委員可能在配合的這次修正可能是在行為的太陽上面他們所著重所以我具體的建議第二條的定義或許可以考慮我們等到把後面的條字走完"},{"start":27168.132,"end":27190.217,"text":"到底有哪些行為太陽是我們覺得在目前的3638394445以下的條文有必要把它涵蓋在裡面的這個時候等到下面的條文把行為太陽確認了以後再回來看第二條定義性剝削的太陽這樣子的討論會比較"},{"start":27192.518,"end":27209.447,"text":"而合乎邏輯一點。那以上是針對有關於第二條的那個整個在立法的體力上面我們討論的順序提出來的建議。好。剛剛國商委員這個建議其實蠻好的。有可能就是最後我們再回過來看第二條是不是有哪一些"},{"start":27210.127,"end":27222.732,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人�"},{"start":27237.932,"end":27238.092,"text":"第二條保留第三條"},{"start":27250.951,"end":27276.745,"text":"第三條目前有八個委員版本以及修正動議有四個版本首先說明第一個將數位發展納入第二項這第一個第二個部分是將現行的第五項一列與第四項做合併第三點新增第五項考量是性影像在網路的存放"},{"start":27278.747,"end":27291.118,"text":"​​設單一求助平臺、民定中央主管機關、得自行或委由民間成立性影像處理中心、受理申訴、諮詢、查查以及通知網際網路業者。"},{"start":27292.859,"end":27316.988,"text":"限制瀏覽、移除兒少性影像。接下來是新增檢警得運用科技技術在網路巡查涉兒少性影像犯罪嫌疑。業者不得拒絕、妨礙或規避的規定。至於委員有建議要建立犯罪資料庫"},{"start":27318.009,"end":27326.7,"text":"厲及分款立各目的事業主管機關的權責,因為涉及各部會,允宜尊重各部會的意見。"},{"start":27331.085,"end":27357.637,"text":"第三條衛福部建議的內容跟我提出來的許多都吻合但是剛質詢也有聽到說部長因為他不知道其他部門是不是可以配合做這個比如說封網啊或者是說強制移除啊等等所以我建議也納入速發部不知道速發部是不是可以配合納進來這個"},{"start":27359.998,"end":27360.578,"text":"主管機關主管機關"},{"start":27388.905,"end":27411.848,"text":"民俗分第二,好,那林委員先,再來是林岱琴委員。抱歉,這個陳委員,就是說數位部其實是目的事業主管機關,它本來網路的這個管制儀儲是它本來就是它的業管,所以我們中央目的主管機關到時候是通知這個它的目的事業主管機關,其實應該是這樣的機制才是,我聽起來是比較"},{"start":27412.849,"end":27413.33,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":27413.33,"end":27438.428,"text":"可能比較優先的選擇啦沒關係在你堅持後我是這樣的一個分享但我不是要講這個我要講的是說這個我們的修正裡面就中央主管機關的自行或者是委託民間團體成立性影像處理中心那他要受理這個申訴或是這個查查還要去通知這個限制或移除這些性剝削的影像然後還有一些其他性防制的業務"},{"start":27440.349,"end":27464.488,"text":"然後這個司法警察檢察官德豐王在這種狀況裡面我是想要請教一下就是說因為我們第一線就是說第一線在執行的我們假設其實應該是第一線的司法人員應該是警察地方的這個警察機關那他們是一定都要通報到這裡來去給性影像處理中心去做這個"},{"start":27466.709,"end":27471.032,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":27497.39,"end":27498.19,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":27523.146,"end":27543.292,"text":"如果可以的話還是不是這件事情不會只有衛福部而已主管機關其他的相關的部會是不是也把工作講清楚說明白所以比較期待是把各相關的要處理的各部會都把他的工作明定清楚以上"},{"start":27545.646,"end":27566.863,"text":"黃捷委員、王振旭委員、黃國昌委員、范雲委員我的意見跟林岳勤委員差不多因為我覺得過去就是因為大家分署的責任太不明確了所以才要修這一條所以我覺得把各個部會的工作列的明確是非常重要的"},{"start":27567.023,"end":27592.453,"text":"另外就是我也支持說應該要把速發部納入是因為其實目前速發部就會協助像是流量限制或是限制接取這樣的工作那如果速發部沒有放進來的話那這些去限制他的接取或是去控制他的流量讓他很難連上網或是連到這個網站的這些工作速發部是不是會有漏掉所以我覺得速發部確實應該要放進來謝謝好請王俊旭委員"},{"start":27597.313,"end":27618.28,"text":"有關於陳慶輝委員修正增電管理兒少性剝削電子資料庫,成立這個資料庫的部分,要供法官、檢察官、警察、醫師、護理人員、心理師、社工及其他政府機關來使用。建議應該要針對於這些相關的人員設定不同的權限。"},{"start":27619.68,"end":27645.1,"text":"以來讓這個被害人隱私權可以有比較完整的保障這是有關於這個前任委員的部分那針對剛剛林岱群委員去想要把這個更完整化這個是非常一個針對整體的修正來講讓所有的事業主管機關也都能夠非常的確定這部分看起來是很有他的這個需求"},{"start":27645.697,"end":27661.937,"text":"不過我是建議說在這個主管機關的後面針對主管兒童及少年性剝削防制政策是規劃漏點推動及那個邊改漏點那監督"},{"start":27663.579,"end":27691.547,"text":"然後加急協調因為我們知道這個監督是針對上對下的這個監督那其實我們很多的事業主管機關是一個協調的過程所以如果把這個協調也同時納進來的話那就可以把這個其他的事業主管機關也都能夠同步納到我們的這個範疇裡面那在條文的說明裡面可以將協調業務的這個納入行政院"},{"start":27692.407,"end":27720.228,"text":"行政院目前一個行政院兒童及少年福利及權益推動小組裡面把這個業務納為這個小組的這個要點裡面去辦理以上好接下來請黃國昌委員針對於有關於衛福部所提出來的建議條文第三條的部分分兩個部分第一個比較簡單第六款寫司法檢察檢察官可以運用科技技術方式去巡查"},{"start":27721.127,"end":27736.393,"text":"那這個部分寫司法檢察跟檢察官那司法檢察官呢?這個是在立法技術上面比較多是獨特的只要寫司法檢察就包括司法檢察官嗎?還是刻意要排除司法檢察官?"},{"start":27738.417,"end":27765.11,"text":"這個可能在第六款、第六項的部分主體為什麼做這樣的限制可能要請衛福部那邊去問一下法務部是怎麼樣會有這樣條文的設計因為這個在我國現行法制上面我可以說是讀書一次讀書一格非常罕見的一種立法上面的技術"},{"start":27766.53,"end":27788.685,"text":"這個是相對比較簡單的問題比較嚴肅也比較困難的問題其實是在第五項的部分第五項整個基本上面的立法精神、立法目的我是同意的但我要提醒主管機關的是你仔細的看你們所做的三款的事項如果說是受理、申訴、諮詢"},{"start":27791.087,"end":27809.505,"text":"就這個部分相對而言他公權力行使的色彩非常的低你要委外面將公權力委託給外面的一個民間團體請他們協助處理相對而言他所會引發的法律上面的爭議相對而言會低"},{"start":27811.507,"end":27830.216,"text":"但到第二款的部分你要通知中網那個某個程度上在我們現在的社會當中那個是一個非常清楚的公權力的形式就這個公權力的形式本身的權力"},{"start":27831.477,"end":27853.634,"text":"是不是讓委員還是要由中央主管機關自己拿、抓著這個事情很重要所以我在看你們的立法技術的時候就第五項的部分你們要達成什麼樣的規範目的百分之百可以理解但你在第五項要達成這個規範目的的時候你把涉及到高度公權力的形式"},{"start":27854.275,"end":27854.515,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":27875.248,"end":27893.495,"text":"但到最後決定要封的這件事情這個是不是適合交由外面的民間團體來做恐怕就要想清楚了所以你有兩個東西可能在第五項的時候看要不要做更細緻的區別有一些是你們覺得目前的公務體系無法負荷"},{"start":27894.695,"end":27920.791,"text":"把它交由民間團體來行事,它也不涉及高度公權力的行事,性質上會比較合適。有一些到最後要下決定的時候,要封網域,我們不希望任何人在可以看得到。這個比較強烈公權力行事的部分,雖然是市委委員還是應該由中央主管機關抓到。這個我可能會建請在第三條的條文,"},{"start":27922.132,"end":27928.257,"text":"在法條的設計上面更細緻化的時候,主黨接官或許可以再重新思考的地方。謝謝。"},{"start":27936.275,"end":27952.009,"text":"針對這個第三條的部分我是支持那個黃秀芳委員她的這個建議還有就是衛福部建議的修正增加不管是性別比例或者把已有的性影像處理中心的功能完備還有增加就是一個主動出巡"},{"start":27952.569,"end":27953.289,"text":"議員,民間婦女團體希望設置性影像,"},{"start":27974.838,"end":27992.995,"text":""},{"start":27993.275,"end":28021.721,"text":"所以衛福部這邊是不是可以表達一些因為如果就會是這個性影像處理中心來處理的話那也許可以放在這那這個受害人性影像資料庫蠻重要的因為他其實一旦有性影像影片被重複的在網路出現的話那他能夠比較快去判斷跟用科技的方式處理因為現在科技上面其實可以有這個性影像的這個DNA所以技術上是可以處理的那其他國家我所知道的美國也有這樣子的一個受害人性影像資料庫"},{"start":28022.581,"end":28051.133,"text":"那這個部分是不是可以請衛福福表達意見?謝謝好,請林淑芬委員好,就是因為我們這樣討論行政部門都沒有解釋所以我們真的是有點納悶那我再講第三條我先釐清一下剛才陳經惠委員的版本要寫上去我也是不反對因為其實有寫跟沒寫或者是我們在這裡納的這種內政法務、教育國法等等掛上去其實它本來就都是目的事業主管機關了它裡面也有本來就有等了"},{"start":28051.593,"end":28069.378,"text":"所以本來就是中央主管機關那個會同目的世界主管機關就應該去辦理什麼業務本來就要啦有寫如果覺得感覺比較安全感我覺得也可以我也不反對但我要講我的重點我的重點是說我一直不清楚這個中央主管機關設立的性影像處理中心"},{"start":28069.898,"end":28094.117,"text":"那因為他接受他沒有寫受理嘛他寫申訴諮詢案查查可是這個調查的業務是誰這個主責要負責去調查確認這個事實的機關是誰是要性影像處理中心嗎如果沒有的話他怎麼發通知那接下來我看到我們下一個第八條裡面又有講第八條為什麼這樣講因為第八條裡面還有一個修正的動議是說"},{"start":28096.359,"end":28117.338,"text":"現項處理中心得知到網頁資料涉有兒童或少年的性影像犯罪嫌疑情勢,應通知網路業者、警察機關及中央主管機關。那看起來好像是說得知到,他已經知道的時候,他要去應通知警察機關。所以我就是不懂說這是單軌還是雙軌。"},{"start":28119.46,"end":28144.26,"text":"那如果是單軌我看起來又像是單軌因為他好像是說我通知警察機關警察機關去調查去辦理這個確認這個事實那性影像處理中心再去移除那為什麼要再透過性影像處理中心去移除呢警察機關不能夠直接就通知這個目的世界主管機關或是相關的部門直接去移除嗎所以到底是單軌還是這個雙軌這個等一下會請那個衛福部一併回答"},{"start":28148.923,"end":28170.353,"text":"對,但是我的意思是說,因為對照到第八條的時候,我們還是要問清楚這樣的設計到底是要怎麼去進行了。好,謝謝。那我們就一併請衛福部回答,先回答,因為現在委員對於你這個主動巡查到底是哪一個單位巡查,然後封網是由哪一個單位封網,單軌或雙軌。"},{"start":28173.255,"end":28192.71,"text":"透過修法完之後你的機制怎麼運作?是不是請衛福部比較清楚的說明?影像處理中心跟警察他們是彼此互通有無就是如果民眾要影像移除會是影像處理中心會比較他的立即性快移除之前要先確認這個事實"},{"start":28194.551,"end":28219.822,"text":"那誰要去做?性影像處理中心可以做嗎?目前我們通知的第三條的第五項這個通知也回答黃國昌委員提到的這個通知並沒有做行任處分。行任處分會在第八條。第八條會有行任處分。所以它是一個觀念通知。觀念通知?當然要就這個事實的確認的調查呢?基本上"},{"start":28220.162,"end":28237.807,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":28237.927,"end":28239.548,"text":"但是這個通知牽扯到要把它移除。"},{"start":28264.52,"end":28268.601,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":28282.585,"end":28303.353,"text":""},{"start":28303.493,"end":28308.156,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":28325.965,"end":28326.286,"text":"報告報告報告報告"},{"start":28346.389,"end":28374.845,"text":"我們現在的FOTO DNA的技術直接跟國際做一個交換然後做這個比對移除所以目前的機制是用第八條的第三項來做處理那以上的說明那至於這個林委員談的各部會的分立要分款這樣一個參考性欠犯罪防治法這樣的分立那我們尊重各部會的意見"},{"start":28378.86,"end":28403.868,"text":"黃國昌委員不好意思,我剛提的先從簡單的問題來第六款,第六項的部分是我們漏掉,司法警察官可以那個沒有關係,因為我知道你們看了這麼多修正動議這麼短的時間之內把建議條文整理出來,忙中有疏失就可以理解,不會苛責"},{"start":28405.649,"end":28425.461,"text":"就我還是要回到那個比較複雜的第五項的部分當初你剛說說是跟第八條相結合嘛然後你說第五項那個是純粹是一個觀念上面的通知但你要看喔你在第五項的時候的設計是說中央主管機關你可以自行成立新影像處理中心"},{"start":28426.294,"end":28442.354,"text":"你也可以委由民間團體成立性影像處理中心。那我如果沒有猜測錯誤,你們應該是打算要委由民間團體成立性影像處理中心,對不對?對嘛,好。但現在的問題是,來請你看一下第八條。"},{"start":28457.782,"end":28476.213,"text":"來你看一下第八條的第一項第八條的第一項在主持上面是網路業者透過下面的這些機關知道有犯罪的情況就應該要先限制瀏覽或已除了那這個網路業者透過哪些地方呢包括了網路內的防務機構"},{"start":28477.493,"end":28500.911,"text":"包括了新一項處理中心包括了主管機關包括了警察機關那等於是新一項處理中心做一個民間業者他只要先通知了網路業者就會產生第八條第一項他的法律效果如果是這個樣子的話恐怕不是你剛剛所講的他只是個觀念通知喔我的理解有沒有錯誤"},{"start":28512.939,"end":28529.827,"text":"第八條第一項我們當初在這個寫這個法條的時候呢基本上我們是認為網際網路的這些業者齁這個三個平台服務者他們應該要有義務去對他的這個內容要有所把關這個義務啊我沒"},{"start":28531.969,"end":28551.528,"text":"這個義務我沒意見強化網際網路業者的義務這我完全沒意見但是他們認為他們不應該由他們來負起這個義務因為他有點有點像是我提供服務結果我還去限制這個我也理解但這就不是我康的問題嘛剛剛你一直跟我講說性影像處理中心那是一個觀念通知嘛"},{"start":28552.108,"end":28561.809,"text":"但我看那第八條第一項的法律設計就不是這樣。他只要通知他,他馬上就要做啦。那這樣性影像處理中心所謂的通知怎麼會是一個觀念通知呢?"},{"start":28562.233,"end":28589.542,"text":"因為我們在第四項跟第五項還有第六項那第五項前項通知講的就是性影像處理中心通知網際網路業者的內容第六項才是所謂的行任處分命他在二十四小時裡頭要去做立刻做限制瀏覽跟移除這個東西所以我們把它認定說"},{"start":28591.903,"end":28613.44,"text":"前面第三條的第五項的這個第二款的這個通知叫觀念通知那會呼應到第八條的第一項是你冷靜一點你冷靜一點看一下你的法條設計你的第八條的第一項、第五項、第六項彼此之間他們的契合關係到底是什麼"},{"start":28614.361,"end":28632.135,"text":"也就是網際網路業者他到底是接到現已向處理中心的通知就要馬上限制月覽或移除還是要等到第六項中央主管機關的通知他才要做這件事情到底是依照第一項、第五項還是依照第六項"},{"start":28634.08,"end":28650.875,"text":"主席我也一併發問好了因為你第一項的字眼叫做先行限制瀏覽或移除叫應先行但應先行到你通報中央主管機關以後中央主管機關做一個行政處分命令業者24小時內要限制瀏覽或移除中間"},{"start":28654.057,"end":28676.226,"text":"會是多久?那先行的法律上的概念是什麼?然後到中央主管機關正式發布行政執行的這個命令的時候,中間可以拖多久?那中央主管機關介紹這個事情以後要進行什麼程序?那有可能會經歷哪些這個程序的問題,所以才能夠命人家二十四小學呢?"},{"start":28677.338,"end":28705.704,"text":"您可不可以講清楚這個時間的序最早在這個去年的那個版本的確應先行這個地方是寫24小時是24小時但是後來就是因為有考慮到成人的這個部分這個24小時有一些速度他要真的被韓人的確定說他是未經他同意散佈的所以"},{"start":28706.184,"end":28734.498,"text":"我們後來在這個這個司法聯防的時候把那個24小時拿掉了就直接寫應先行那基本上就說性影像處理中心他之所以會知道這個網際網路業者有這個兒童的性影像是民眾去做申訴民眾申訴告訴影像處理中心影像處理中心一確定這個內容有他就會通知第一個"},{"start":28735.078,"end":28757.825,"text":"通知業者要趕快做先行移除瀏覽就是第八條的第一項你的意思是說其實還沒確認之前只要有影像是關於兒少的就馬上先行先限制和下架是請他先移除對沒錯但是你說這只是一個通知還不算是一個行政處分通知那他可以不遵守嗎那有些業者他的確他可以不遵守"},{"start":28758.385,"end":28780.3,"text":"所以我們的行政處分47條才會對是主管機關、中央主管機關所命的24小時要去做移除,他不移除才有行政處分,才會有罰還這件事,會是在寫在47條。對於第八條第一項是並沒有,並沒有這個所謂的行政處分,並沒有。"},{"start":28782.239,"end":28809.346,"text":"對啦,但是你之後先行處分就是暫時的狀態,暫時處分的狀態嘛,聽起來,但是因為不是行政執行的概念,所以它基本上業者可能不遵守啊,但你是想要一個先行的這個權宜措施緊急的狀態,叫他做,可是他不做,你才會有這個後來後面的這個,但是就是說中央主管機關接受到第一項的通知以後,要命"},{"start":28810.895,"end":28823.864,"text":"網路業者於二十四小時內移除。那他們中間就從建議他們先行下架到中央主管機關強制下架那中間大概會拖多久?"},{"start":28825.65,"end":28841.407,"text":"第八條現在程序的架構大概是這樣子首先是性影像中心接受到這一個民眾的申訴還有怎麼樣"},{"start":28842.228,"end":28849.955,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條及第五十一條條文修正草案案 案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條及第五十一條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":28861.406,"end":28888.388,"text":"確認說沒有錯就是民眾申訴的就是這個現象之後的話他第一個就是要做通知通知的話他有兩個部分要去通知一個是通知主管機關或者警察機關這些處分機關的這個部分第二個通知的是這一個業者這一個通知業者的話是讓業者有一個機會他可以自律他自省就下架"},{"start":28889.198,"end":28904.247,"text":"但是當然業者也有可能就不遵從所以變成就要到第八條的這一個部分那第八條的部分我們看到的第一項就是這一個網路業者那透過這一個"},{"start":28906.008,"end":28911.349,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":28935.035,"end":28956.716,"text":"網路業者24小時就必須要下架。所以前面的通知指的是讓業者可以自立,他自行下架。那後面的24小時的這部分的話,就是這樣子,就是強制的。好,剛剛范委員要舉手,是不是讓范委員講一下,來。"},{"start":28958.999,"end":28986.847,"text":"對,貴婦婦剛剛回應我說我詢問的那個受害人性影像資料庫在第八條之三可是你們整理的這一本裡面沒有第八條之三只有黃秀芳委員有第八條之三黃秀芳委員的第八條的第三項八條的第三項我也完全沒有看到受害人性影像資料庫啊所以第八條第三項的哪個文字"},{"start":28988.905,"end":29014.945,"text":"我說的是被害人建立一個被害人現影像資料庫欸跟委員報告就是目前用第八條第三項的機制去處理這個Photo DNA的比對移除的問題那並沒有一個現影像的資料庫第八條第三項哪裡有寫個機制為什麼我找不到呢"},{"start":29017.967,"end":29031.391,"text":"則是直轄市縣市主管機關得協助被害人,在偵查中向檢察官,在審理中向法院請求重置扣案的被害人性影像。"},{"start":29033.652,"end":29043.22,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":29059.034,"end":29078.176,"text":"這個其實就是現行條文中本來就有的嘛所以你的意思就是現在這樣已經很足夠了那我們看到的就是不足夠是不是可以評估一下因為那個林岱琴委員有她的條文在那我是有一個建議我本來是想用附帶決議但我剛剛想說如果放在形象中心的話也是一個方法"},{"start":29078.916,"end":29081.297,"text":"請教一下在提案的委員就是性影像資料庫要幹什麼?"},{"start":29100.72,"end":29120.362,"text":"請做一個資料庫,裡面全部都是性剝削影像。我先講,像之前台北市有偵破那個N號房的時候,那個警員在查核。那查核事實上對了一萬多筆的資料。如果今天這個資料庫,假設今天這個,因為今天為什麼會有黃子嬌事件,是因為"},{"start":29121.363,"end":29125.207,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":29139.159,"end":29163.781,"text":"但是他們是用私人時間用私人時間把那一萬多筆逐一去對對出有七個未成年可是是用人工去做這樣子是花他自己私人時間去做所以我的意思我們那時候那荷蘭已經有這樣子的一個技術STAR-NCII如果給賀許職的話去做比對速度上會比較快而且也可以解決結果A警員在辦案我"},{"start":29165.643,"end":29173.266,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":29189.753,"end":29189.873,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":29208.592,"end":29228.677,"text":""},{"start":29229.155,"end":29229.195,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":29252.24,"end":29266.757,"text":"剛剛提到資料庫的問題,這可能要先釐清一下資料庫指的是什麼?如果是影像資料庫,可能要問一下事務部,這種資料庫它會要有多少的空間?事實上是不是可行?"},{"start":29271.127,"end":29299.862,"text":"好 來 林委員剛才林岱請委員這樣講我就聽懂了就是說因為我們知道這些性犯罪產業的這些網站的經營者他們其實都是這個組織在犯罪的那就是我上午所指許的就是說這種在網路上組織性的這個犯罪他們都有慣行的這個犯罪模式而且他們不會只有一部產出一部兩部他們大概都會很多部那受害的地點搞不好是全台灣跨域的跨區域的"},{"start":29300.362,"end":29321.414,"text":"那所以說建立一個這個影像資料庫其實是然後再加上電腦這個比對其實可以看更容易找出來就是說這裏面的組織犯罪的這個脈絡然後也更容易產生連結那更容易找到這個後面的這個加害者的這個組織這個組織有蓄意的組織所以"},{"start":29327.037,"end":29347.8,"text":"的確是需要,我覺得先不要講說你這個容量要多大,然後要放在哪裡,有這個技術的問題。技術我覺得不是問題,但是就是說有這個需要,然後才能夠去了解他們這些犯罪行為的關聯,或者是他們的組織性,聽起來像是有這個需要。"},{"start":29350.161,"end":29376.139,"text":"那我們是不是在母法裡面可以授權就明定說要建立這一個性影像犯罪的這個影片資料庫那至於資料庫要怎麼儲存要再由誰交給誰然後他們使用的程序應該怎麼樣但我是覺得這個資料庫絕對不能放在這個委外的社團委外的剛才講的那個什麼處理中心"},{"start":29377.04,"end":29379.203,"text":"委員黃捷等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":29391.772,"end":29394.133,"text":"議員,第三條我想問一下,就是說今天想的在司法機警察跟我們的檢察官運用科技技術方式與網路巡查,我想問一下這個主動巡查還是說"},{"start":29417.205,"end":29425.968,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":29443.914,"end":29446.095,"text":"這個獎的審查到底是什麼?以上。"},{"start":29466.041,"end":29495.158,"text":"提一個意見請各位委員參考一下因為現在要釐清的就是這個主動網路巡查這件事情這個目的是什麼我們這個主要的目的其實應該是一個行政處分前的一個前置的一個行政作為就是要為了防止兒少性影像一再的遭到散佈然後對兒少身心產生危害然後有及時封網行政處分的必要所以這個網路巡查性質其實本質上它是一個行政作為那"},{"start":29495.878,"end":29517.699,"text":"應該是一個全責的行政主管機關來處理。大家都知道檢察官做的事情是什麼?是個案的偵查犯罪。但是這個條文定下來的話,會把行政作為跟偵查行善業作為混在一起。就像剛剛那個林委員講的,你就會搞不清楚這個是一軌還是雙軌,因為他就是把它混在一起了。所以我一定要提出來這個意見,而且"},{"start":29520.501,"end":29535.894,"text":"而這個必須要有區隔跟分工要不然這個權責會不清楚更何況檢察官的人力大家都知道其實是完全不夠我們雖然有1065個檢察官但是我們必須做偵查公訴執行的工作然後我們能夠分給"},{"start":29536.975,"end":29540.456,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":29553.28,"end":29580.634,"text":"這個這個把它加註給檢察機關來來主動巡查其實這個真的在行政行政的作為上其實是不相宜啦吼所以我我們非常期待委員們我我們希望提出這個意見大家可以清楚的分開吼分清楚說檢察官該做在個案偵查工作該怎麼做主管機關在行政處分行政作為這一方面該怎麼運用他的職權這個要分清楚那如果說衛福部沒有人力真的就是看似委託"},{"start":29581.314,"end":29581.334,"text":"議員林岱樺"},{"start":29598.376,"end":29598.396,"text":"閱讀委員"},{"start":29619.488,"end":29645.981,"text":"要具體明確的規定說檢警可以使用什麼樣的科技偵查方法然後可以用什麼樣的法定程序跟法院申請可以兼顧人權保障跟偵查的需要但是這個條文很籠統我們不用這個條文我們刑事訴訟法我們就可以這樣做我們不需要這個條文在行政法上面來處理那科技偵查及保障法那個規定是很細緻的規定而且這有人權保障跟偵查需要"},{"start":29647.522,"end":29661.876,"text":"這個東西其實是不是相提並論不是有這個東西我們就會有權我們不需要這個我們行事送法就可以做但是不是用在這個地方我們的權是用在個案偵查要收證上那以上請委員參考我們的好來警察單位謝謝"},{"start":29670.731,"end":29696.69,"text":"警政署報告關於衛福部版我們想要接續在法務部後面從兩點就是一個是技術的可行另外一個是公司協力這兩點做報告這個議題其實我們在內部非常重視我們也找了相關科技犯罪偵查專業的同仁一起來討論因為創意私房它其實是一個會員制封閉的論壇"},{"start":29699.612,"end":29723.673,"text":"如果我們希望要用不管是相關的程式或者是系統主動的去做巡查其實它有技術上面的難度相關的案件從警察實務來說大概我們都還是需要人工深入社群裡面去挖掘、去偵辦尤其是對於犯罪事證的確認跟蒐集"},{"start":29725.435,"end":29750.196,"text":""},{"start":29750.276,"end":29754.377,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案"},{"start":29772.142,"end":29779.304,"text":" bicyclist 林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":29799.249,"end":29823.867,"text":"保留第五項然後第六項能夠刪除請各位委員參考黃國昌委員從剛剛各個行政部門針對條文不同的規範部分所表達的意見清楚的呈現出來了目前衛福部所提出來的這個建議修正條文可能在不同的行政機關之間彼此之間橫向的聯繫跟協調"},{"start":29826.529,"end":29844.064,"text":"我覺得可能要或許明天禮拜二嘛星期二的時候就我建議你們明天花一整天的時間坐下來談清楚要不然看到行政機關彼此之間不要說網內互打啦"},{"start":29847.784,"end":29875.489,"text":"行政機關彼此之間從自己的權責的角度有一些不一樣的看法跟想法我覺得是正常的花一點時間趕快去做協調那第二個事情我還是要提就是說分網這件事情再想一下就是在預防階段的時候誰可以下這個命令那後面的救濟程序是什麼"},{"start":29876.429,"end":29896.987,"text":"這件事情一定要想得很清楚因為這次定下去了以後接下來我們就要按照這樣的機制下去處理這也會去回應到為什麼我上一次質詢的時候不是今天是在上一次質詢的時候我說要拜託部長找法務部跟司法院坐下來"},{"start":29897.828,"end":29917.928,"text":"因為這件事情現在已經很嚴重了什麼叫做很嚴重我再複述一次用真空偷拍兒童洗澡我相信現在坐在這個會議室的人百分之九十九的人都覺得這是性影響但去年的時候那個修法理由"},{"start":29919.149,"end":29942.389,"text":"帶著我們最高法院的法官做出了什麼樣的見解?我們最高法院的法官111年度抬上至1847號刑事判決用針孔拍未成年的少女洗澡不是兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條第一項第三款的性影像這件事很嚴重"},{"start":29943.897,"end":29960.064,"text":"這事情沒有改變的話,代表了什麼?代表的是連接到我們現在要講封網的事情。你憑什麼封我的網?最高法院都說了,用針孔偷拍未成年的兒童洗澡,不適性影像。"},{"start":29962.782,"end":29991.121,"text":"我再回來我還是建議就是說今天該要繼續處理下去把一些沒有爭議的或犯罪的構成要件不同的派要處理完也可以但有一件事顯然是要做的這樣會讓我們在審法條的時候更順利一點要不然的話衛福部法務部警政署一人一把號可能彼此之間先協調會比較讓我們在法條的審理上面會比較順利一點"},{"start":29992.128,"end":29992.408,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":30016.061,"end":30016.201,"text":"議員黃捷等"},{"start":30038.462,"end":30042.744,"text":"adequate to the current state of the federal government."},{"start":30062.954,"end":30091.105,"text":"繼官要專職的人力一直本來就需要那你不能讓這些既有的人力但是你說大海撈針的去辦案其實是很困難可是我想你看所以要加入這個會我不曉得因為我也沒看過也沒有加入過怎麼這些要進入他們網站的會員他們怎麼可以在大海撈針裡面馬上就撈得到所以顯然一定不是大海撈針馬上就可以我要去參加創意司法馬上搜尋一下然後就可以加入這樣子"},{"start":30092.645,"end":30118.317,"text":"我們一般人可能還不知道怎麼加入可是他們一定有一些脈絡是可以的所以一定不是單純像大海撈針一樣所以專責然後專職這個事情很重要那這種狀況裡面有沒有一種可能是如果是要去大海撈針去網路主動巡查那要不要也直接交給這個性影像處理中心讓他們撈到了那人工這個可以加入這些社群呢"},{"start":30118.797,"end":30141.324,"text":"然後再把這些案子再丟出來給專責的單位、專職的人力去辦,這樣子就也是一種可能啦。就是我們一直在呼籲就要專責和專職,這件事情剛好在這裡也可以放進去,要有這個組織和人力出現啦。好,謝謝。來李月琴,委員。"},{"start":30142.805,"end":30168.413,"text":"好 這邊也同意剛剛前面兩位講的是不是我們現在就是第三條不在這邊討論因為牽扯到其他部會那事實上我提的第五條也是一樣的就是說這個警政單位是不是也要回去因為這個很重要的因為它非常是關鍵我就說如果我們後邊罰則罰得再重如果找不到人沒有影像比對的話那也是往來定到"},{"start":30169.213,"end":30169.233,"text":"審查"},{"start":30178.993,"end":30184.194,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":30204.56,"end":30228.718,"text":"所以我會建議說如果這幾條是不是可以今天先跳過往下走然後讓部會之間去討論清楚來然後也請衛福部如果可以的話把第三條跟第八條之間的邏輯跟關聯性也下一次的時候讓我們了解以上好那因為今天時間的關係本來是宣布四點半現在是四點五十四分"},{"start":30229.451,"end":30256.447,"text":"那剛剛大家其實有這樣的一個建議那第一個就是第三條的部分我想主動巡查這個是在巡打的時候大家都希望政府要有主動性這個是一定要放入的只是怎麼放的問題所以大家不用推這一條一定要入法那入法是由哪個單位來執行的問題是現行這樣的寫法還是剛剛林淑芬委員有建議說新影像處理中心有沒有辦法"},{"start":30257.347,"end":30273.023,"text":"就是擔負這麼高的一個職責就委託公權力委託可不可以到這樣子那這個你們回去再想但是禮拜三的審查這個是對性影像中心現在是有"},{"start":30275.663,"end":30292.538,"text":"他們現在性影像處理中心是有預算有人的 對不對你們委外的是有的嘛所以這個你們再回去研議應該是怎麼做但是我同時也提醒法務部跟警政署你們都是有責任的這件事不會是只有衛福部的責任訴發部也有責任"},{"start":30293.038,"end":30307.709,"text":"所以請大家來討論這次的兒童及少年性剝削防制條例每一個單位你要想是你該負起的責任是什麼而不是說這不是我的事啊不然是誰的事都是衛福部的事這也是沒有辦法不太可能好不好來部長要補充來謝謝各位委員的提醒跟指導"},{"start":30313.635,"end":30342.048,"text":"現在大概有幾件事情必須要去處理第一個就是剛剛方國昌委員所提到的跟後面處罰實際上的實務上面的靈動性這我們再來開會找法務部、找司法院大家一起來做討論這是第一點第二點剛剛主要在討論的就是封網這件事情都主動巡查"},{"start":30343.03,"end":30367.34,"text":"主動審查的確本來是我們同仁提出來的裡面提到司法警察、警察官跟檢察官的這一個也就是第六項的部分那剛剛法務部跟警務署都有表達他們的意見不過我想這個觀念上面必須要把它釐清因為現在要做的是兩件事情第一個叫做預防"},{"start":30368.56,"end":30390.355,"text":"我們發現這個網站是有問題的我們就把它限制瀏覽就把它封掉這是預防避免說這些在這個網站裡面的這些兒少性影像再受到其他的人再進去就是說觀賞或者是把它Download下來"},{"start":30391.275,"end":30410.354,"text":"這是一件事情至於裡面涉及到犯罪那就是檢警的事情所以這兩項不一樣的事情那我們現在在講的其實在這個第三條在處理的是封網的那個預防性的動作"},{"start":30410.814,"end":30434.423,"text":"那這個就必須要快速而且要能夠能夠越等於是越快越好所以我們在制度設計上面就用了兩個階段第二階段就是主動讓這個業者自省下架第二階段就是我們強制用行政處分去強制他去執行就這樣子兩個階段那這個部分的話"},{"start":30438.823,"end":30444.025,"text":"委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案"},{"start":30459.291,"end":30473.78,"text":"不管是科技增防還是說事發不有這樣子能夠提供這樣的技術的支援的話我們就比較容易做甚至可以不用委外但是以現階段我們是想要先用委外的方式讓大家先放心"},{"start":30474.801,"end":30484.756,"text":"這是衛福部的事情,我沒有要麻煩大家。這是衛福部的事情,但是我們希望其他部會在技術上面給我們一個資源。大概是這樣子。"},{"start":30490.524,"end":30517.765,"text":"所以這兩件事情我們就來處理那這個我們越快越好那第二件事情其實也不用什麼特別處理我大概今天把話攤開來講就衛福部補正啦啊大家就幫忙這樣啦啊第一件事情的話這的確今天跟司法機關比較有關係這個還是必須要去做討論好謝謝部長補充說明剛剛羅廷文委員是最後補充"},{"start":30521.533,"end":30548.942,"text":"你有聽到是不是?那如果是這樣子的話我想剛剛其實主動巡查跟封網是這一次修法大家重中之重那剛剛部長也很有誠意講了我希望其他相關的單位一定要來協助衛福部就是所有的兒童性剝削防制條例裡面我們要落實真的不是只有衛福部的事麻煩各部會你可以提供技術的"},{"start":30549.782,"end":30554.743,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":30576.509,"end":30577.37,"text":"爾邵性剝削現在有八成以上,"},{"start":30602.405,"end":30622.924,"text":"這個真的都是在網路上發生的那這個部分的修法意見你們要提出來因為本來這邊寫的是維持現行條例就是不修法的意思但是不修法的情況你們要怎麼樣去做到落實你們現在根本就是做得太少所以這個部分因為我有提出相關的修法教育部也不能置身事外"},{"start":30623.684,"end":30623.804,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":30654.732,"end":30679.58,"text":"二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。"},{"start":30686.92,"end":30695.064,"text":"二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":30713.114,"end":30730.661,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":30732.482,"end":30756.643,"text":"二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第八十九條條文修正草案 案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第八十九條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":30758.384,"end":30777.96,"text":"二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。"},{"start":30782.764,"end":30783.404,"text":"眾議院主席"}]}},{"id":"152858","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152858","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6fcf052afbc35df1c656dd8af69baafbe80469f81d00442838eab79561b69ec085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:39:56 - 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個去是去字你在這個位置其言也善其言也真"},{"start":54.397,"end":82,"text":"我希望你今天我看你今天都笑嘻嘻的每一個人都不為難你我不會為難你讓你暢所欲言好不好但是你講真話講好話就是啊你要不要看一下因為你當過國防部長當過退伍會主委都很吃重的工作了那你要不要看一下"},{"start":83.628,"end":109.78,"text":"顧立雄這個文人部長你怎麼看文人部長他是第7個文人部長那我在立法院多年了我看到文人部長後面成績不怎麼樣就是包括前面有孫政有陳呂安有蔡明憲是不是還有好幾位文人部長"},{"start":111.229,"end":115.971,"text":"報告委員前面的幾位文人部長都沒有當過國安會的秘書長"},{"start":139.04,"end":157.628,"text":"對於國安對於國防可能都會申書所以您會評論他們的表現不是十分的讓人家能夠讚揚但是顧先生我要先聲明我跟他沒有私交除了公務的點頭之交之外"},{"start":158.632,"end":173.707,"text":"我覺得換一個在國安會當過秘書長的管兩岸事務以及我們軍國防事務的去當部長也是一個新的嘗試。國防可以嘗試嗎?我們可以這麼說"},{"start":177.298,"end":193.952,"text":"你看他律師當了當這個這個處長會的主委然後就金管委主委國防委秘書長我覺得他好像是十項全能欸你不覺得這個政府對他來講蔡英文對他來講十分壞一路提攜啊"},{"start":195.438,"end":219.48,"text":"是不是 這個 難道你沒有一絲絲的擔心嗎你就是 其實你不用拍他馬屁吧 對不對我剛才講話有拍他馬屁嗎感覺有一點 我的感覺有一點假如有一點我收回很收回 不要收回啦 你講話講出來就不要收回我今天是帶了很誠意來跟你對話我會珍惜這樣的最後一次的對話"},{"start":221.361,"end":237.793,"text":"這是第一個齁所以你對他是肯定大於否定是吧我這樣講對吧我覺得他當過國安會秘書長啊比前面的文人直接來當部長應該頗具優勢那你要這樣講陳履安你有沒有當過國防部長他有當過啊對啊那他的背景他爸爸陳陳啊他的軍方背景很強啊他沒有當過兵啊他沒有指揮過部隊啊他是文人部長啊"},{"start":251.254,"end":257.058,"text":"我們這樣子好了,刮目來看,顧委員是不是,顧部長是不是能夠做得更好?因為他經過國安會這麼多長時間的歷練嘛,這樣子,這個不是拍馬屁吧?"},{"start":274.827,"end":275.307,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":294.878,"end":323.04,"text":"國安部我是盡力了所以我稱自己是100分嘛但是國安部在這個退輔會啊做的時間比較長能夠做一些長期規劃的事這個有成就感也是100分我不敢打100分但是我覺得我的確是努力了你講國安部長100分那你退輔會就代表退輔會做得比較差我都覺得你退輔會做得不差欸"},{"start":324.594,"end":347.087,"text":"最少譬如說榮總體系就做得很好阿是 謝謝是不是北榮你知道北榮今年阿不得了阿得到世界的排名阿對我要講這個世界排名只有北榮阿抱歉喔其他總榮高榮也很好我只是特別講但是你們沒有入名北榮入名阿是不是了不起阿我都以為這次衛武部長是他你知道嗎猜錯了"},{"start":351.172,"end":357.238,"text":"報告委員我也是這麼猜測對阿你看你跟我講的一樣我心裡想叫你站在院長就對這部長哈哈哈哈施裝哈蘇哈蘇你聽懂這個意思嗎聽懂聽懂嗎西裝穿起來很fitfit對不對他來當衛務部長那比邱太元好人不知道幾倍的幾倍阿實在是這樣"},{"start":375.552,"end":402.574,"text":"你們趕快講幾句現話卓龍泰看錯人啦實在是所以才押一個陳時中來當地下部長謝謝敬愛的委員我可不可以澄清一下醫學院畢業以後我就進入輔導會醫療體系它是我唯一的家我剩下的三年多的時間如果長官允許我會繼續幹到退休也不會去爭取任何職位報效國家這個不要爭取啦"},{"start":405.073,"end":432.241,"text":"這個不用爭取這是長官的關愛什麼關愛的眼神請問請問請問主委你樂見我們北農院長出任衛務部長吧這個表示我們兩個英雄所見略同對啊這個今天最喜歡聽的就你這句話好最後一個選民服務請主席給我一點點時間我要講一下我在立院多年"},{"start":434.042,"end":446.71,"text":"我每次被這個案子我都掉眼淚不知道怎麼辦找你們幾次就是什麼就是國安體系的這些跑者退下來的"},{"start":449.312,"end":467.407,"text":"一樣是軍人樓你跟我同學黃埔第幾期的入關第幾期的結果你去陸海空你有配到宿舍我沒有宿舍到處陳情我們的主席也認真在幫忙捐改基金硬活生生的不給啊"},{"start":468.568,"end":492.082,"text":"國安會的秘書長、副秘書長到我辦公室講了幾次他們起立主張應該給他們配宿舍但是國防部不肯這個是你知道的對不對不知道不知道找過你咧找過你那時候當部長的時候沒有找到你本人但是你的幕僚你不知道這個事就是一樣都是軍人"},{"start":493.786,"end":522.679,"text":"陸海空一樣是官校但是呢分配單位不一樣分到陸海空都有是不是分到國安會國安情報單位沒有他說奇怪我的同學都有啊我沒有捐改條例裡面這個這個啊我心裡都每次看這個事都很難過就是我們無解啊我們立委多認真啊"},{"start":523.82,"end":526.403,"text":"退輔會沒有圈改基金沒有基地"},{"start":544.324,"end":567.561,"text":"但是我舉單手贊成你贊成嗎你贊成這些人應該給他宿舍對不對最少最少要給他一個補救辦法吧我拜託啊拜託你這個事你會不要交給林德發這件事情請他處理一下好不好就是這個叫做叫做什麼"},{"start":569.023,"end":578.239,"text":"六個單位有三四百戶喔六個單位他們都垂垂老矣他們心裡的恨就帶進棺材喔真的我講的比較重的話就這樣子喔"},{"start":578.888,"end":599.695,"text":"委員我補充一下我是服務照顧處處長當初這六個捐赦他是沒有納入到捐改總冊的捐改基地那當初應該是有一些經過一些調查或一些作業那相關的一些作業呢可能要國防部這邊還是要來解套退輔會是負責服務照顧他們的問題我們會協助他們來跟國防部來做一些討論"},{"start":601.716,"end":622.806,"text":"但是追根究柢這就是在眷村改建條老舊眷村改建條例裡面他不是列入在他的改建的那個基地我知道嘛就是為什麼不列入嘛一樣都是軍人一樣都是管校我們同學比如說我今天跟馮世寬是同學對不對你就有我就沒有我一輩子"},{"start":623.766,"end":624.206,"text":"委員您的講話"},{"start":647.199,"end":647.319,"text":"賴士葆"}]}},{"id":"151845","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151845","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e61c013e35767fbf085b40abc3f7af24af34e2527b10508eee130a6e79d11c52415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:07:54 - 10:16:16","影片長度":"00:08:22","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。\n\n備註：4月29日（星期一）、5月1日(星期三)【兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":502,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:16:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:07:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":600,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（10時7分）謝謝主席，有請移民署長。"],["主席：有請署長。"],["牛委員煦庭：署長早安，今天這個質詢分兩個部分來探討，第一部分我們討論一下移民政策，第二部分我們再討論一下新住民基本法的正當性。我剛剛在提案說明的時候有提到，根據移民署統計，截至今年3月全臺領有證件的外籍裔新住民人數59萬5,000人，陸港澳配38萬4,000人，外配、陸配加起來在今年馬上也要突破100萬的大關，今年2月的時候，……"],["鐘署長景琨：委員，可能是加子女才會突破。"],["牛委員煦庭：加子女，反正就一百多萬人，對不對？"],["鐘署長景琨：是。"],["牛委員煦庭：今年2月的時候我們也做過政策的對話，針對我國的移民政策來做討論，綜合今天報告的內容，我們大概也發現了，因為我們的國家移民政策現在是講和平共榮、互相尊重、文化交融，好像什麼都講了，但是好像什麼都沒有講，署長，我們的移民政策到底是開放還是保守？"],["鐘署長景琨：我們當然應該是朝向開放。"],["牛委員煦庭：朝向開放？現在是開放還是保守？"],["鐘署長景琨：我想這個部分最主要是由國發會的首長會議來主導。"],["牛委員煦庭：和平共融、互相尊重、文化交流算開放還算保守？這就是我說的，好像什麼都講，但是好像什麼都沒有講。請問署長，臺灣適不適合移民？我們是不是一個大家很想要來這邊定居的幸福國度？"],["鐘署長景琨：是啊，應該是……"],["牛委員煦庭：我們比起東亞各國，我們移民的優勢在哪裡？為什麼我們是值得定居的幸福樂土？"],["鐘署長景琨：我想我們的治安很好，我們的生活環境也很好，我們的人民也非常的友善，生活非常便利。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你講的是生活的部分，治安安全，生活穩定，對不對？"],["鐘署長景琨：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：可是我告訴你，你剛剛有講，你要討論移民政策的時候，都是用國發會的角度出發，國發會要的人才是什麼？其實國發會的報告撰寫者科長今天也在我們會場，報告說後疫情時代，各國的經濟移民政策比較，也就是從國家發展的角度，其實我們需要的是有專業技術的經濟移民，因為我們現在面對少子化跟高齡化的雙重衝擊，所以用經濟移民政策來補貼我國的勞動力缺口。現在問題就來了，你剛剛說我們吸引大家的地方在於治安很好，住起來還蠻舒服的，對不對？可是這跟產業其實沒有什麼直接的關係，對不對？我們可以看到各國移民政策，其實大家講的也都是老生常談，大家都希望用經濟移民來讓國家的產業發展更加強盛，好比英國因應產業的需求，吸引STEM的專業人才；新加坡也一樣，用科技簽證的方式來吸引高科技人才；日本希望的是金融外專的人才等等，但實務上這些國家即便希望透過產業經濟移民的角度，實際上來說都還不見得能夠執行到位，譬如日本招募外籍生，希望留用外籍生來補貼勞動力，但是他們還沒有畢業就因為高額的生活費不得不打工，變成了所謂的學工。臺灣有沒有學工的問題？"],["鐘署長景琨：學生來臺灣，教育部是有規定每週在20小時之內准許他們打工。"],["牛委員煦庭：對啦，准許，但是有沒有變黑工的問題？變成超額勞動或者本質上變成來勞動而不是來念書？應該是有的，對不對？教育部也做過調查，若干的個案我們今天因為時間有限……"],["鐘署長景琨：若干個案是有。"],["牛委員煦庭：是有的，對不對？好，國發會報告說我們面對雙重挑戰，希望透過移民政策來解決缺口，現在我就問移民署，到底我們要不要用開放的移民政策作為勞動力缺口的解方、政策方向？"],["鐘署長景琨：在勞動力方面，其實剛剛委員也說得很清楚了，就是高階的部分我們其實是有外國人才的延攬僱用法，在比較低階的藍領人力的部分，已經來到了76萬，檢討各產業的需求來開放……"],["牛委員煦庭：我們現在講的是移民啦，就是說你要不要乾脆比如說比照新加坡的模式，新加坡的案例就是廣開大門，歡迎大家來，直接跟全世界講，只要你是好人才，都歡迎你來，這叫開放的移民政策，顯然我們還沒有走到這個程度，對不對？"],["鐘署長景琨：這部分可能還是要……"],["牛委員煦庭：但我們要不要往這個方向走？"],["鐘署長景琨：國發會審慎去檢討，這個部分恐怕我沒有辦法做很明確的回答。"],["牛委員煦庭：沒關係，今天我們花一點點時間去討論移民政策的原因，就是因為這事情茲事體大，但我想新的政府上台之後，移民政策是一個很重要的東西，因為少子化跟高齡化已經大軍壓境，再不討論、大家再把頭埋在土裡是沒有意義的事情，不管要開放還是要保守，都要有一個明確的態度，好不好？這是我今天要提醒署長的部分。","再來請次長。"],["主席：有請花次長，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們今天在討論新住民基本法，我覺得這個法案有兩個重大意義：第一叫做宣示意義，宣示意義就是如果我們有專門的法律去保障新住民的權益，我們剛剛花那麼多時間去談移民政策，你才可以跟全世界說我們是重視移民的，我們是重視新住民權益保障的這樣一個國家，對不對？這是這個法案的宣示意義，我們都希望不要被歧視或怎麼樣，所以是宣示意義，這是第一個。第二、這法案也不是沒有實質意義。次長，內政部是天下第一大部，各種業務這麼繁重，我們內政委員會也就十三、十四個委員，我們要從都市計畫管到警消，有這麼多的事情要討論，其實在各個部門都一樣，在理論上、理想中的狀態都是各個部門都要重視新住民的權益，才叫做真正的平等，可是實務上來說做不到這件事，所以不管是新住民也好、原住民也好，在少數跟弱勢的族群，我們會需要所謂的專職單位，就是因為要有一個專職單位提升他們的話語權，在跨部會協調的時候，它有它的分量跟重要性，它的政策比重跟關注度才會提升，所以這是這一部法案的實質意義，它既有宣示的意義，也有實質的意義，其實它有充分的正當性。","剛剛次長在答復其他委員的時候說，我們要發現問題，解決問題，我要告訴次長，發現、解決問題，就像我們的提案說明一樣，你從106年講到現在也夠了，該是要有一部明確的法案往前走了啦！之前提過新住民保障法這基本草案，就是本黨之前的立法委員林麗蟬委員有講，我們在社會倡議，為了要幫新住民爭取權益，我們當然要講好講滿，但是講好講滿的用意是要政府提出相對溫和的版本，然後大家在妥協的過程中前進。我就非常認同這樣的概念，但是我們這樣去提之後，到現在顯然連院版都沒有出來，我想這是讓很多新住民好朋友非常非常失望的。法條的內容、開放的程度都可以討論，但是不能裹足不前啦！所以我希望無論如何，今天政府也要用開放的心態，用積極的心態來面對新住民基本法的審議跟修正，好不好？"],["花次長敬群：我們態度上當然開放，我們現在關心的是立了這個法之後，實質的精進到底會是什麼，這才是我們關注的……"],["牛委員煦庭：所以沒有院版我們就是很失望嘛，對不對？"],["花次長敬群：相對於現在行政院的新住民事務協調會報，是由政委和行政院當作高位來處理議題，還是要回到部會，其實這都要互相比較……"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["花次長敬群：怎麼樣對新住民比較好，當然我們就要怎麼走。"],["牛委員煦庭：所以你要有一套版本，我講的就像對案一樣，因為馬上我們要進入逐條討論了，好不好？"],["花次長敬群：瞭解，謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：我們希望有明確的態度，而且希望是友善的，可以嗎？"],["花次長敬群：謝謝委員。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝，辛苦了。"],["主席：非常謝謝牛煦庭委員，謝謝次長跟署長。","繼續請許宇甄委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":448,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","丁學忠","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","羅美玲"],"page_start":345,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新\n住民權益保障法草案」案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(三)審查委\n員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」\n案、( 五) 審查委員蘇巧慧等 26 人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案；二、繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 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署長早安今天質詢的部分分成兩個部分來做探討第一部分我們討論一下移民政策第二部分我們討論一下新住民基本法的正當性我們剛剛在提案說明的時候有提到移民署有統計截至今年3月全台領有政見的外籍"},{"start":32.563,"end":58.89,"text":"一、新住民人數59萬5千人陸、港、澳配38萬4千人外配陸配再加起來在今年馬上也要突破100萬的這個大關那今年二月的時候委員可能是家子女才會突破反正我們剛剛數字大概就反正100多萬人嘛對不對那今年二月的時候我們也做過政策的對話針對我國的移民政策來做討論"},{"start":60.703,"end":71.469,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第11屆第2會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第"},{"start":84.73,"end":110.158,"text":"朝向開放那現在是開放還是保守我想這個部分最主要是由國發會他來主導他有一個五首長會議來主導那個和平共榮互相尊重文化交流算開放還算保守所以這就是我說的好像什麼都講了但是好像什麼都沒有講這個那請問組長台灣適不適合移民我們是不是一個大家很想要來這邊定居的幸福的國度"},{"start":111.664,"end":124.26,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案"},{"start":125.489,"end":148.226,"text":"我講台灣是一個就是說我們的治安很好我們的生活環境也很好我們的這個人民也非常的友善所以你講的是生活的部分自然安全生活穩定對不對對可是我告訴你剛剛有講嘛國發會有寫一個對不對你在討論移民政策的時候都是用國發會的角度來出發國發會要的要的人才是什麼其實"},{"start":149.026,"end":168.467,"text":"國防會寫的報告,今天這個撰寫者科長今天也在我們的會場,說這個後疫情時代各國的經濟移民政策比較,由於從國家發展的角度,其實我們需要的是這個專有專業技術的經濟移民啦,因為我們現在面對少子化跟高齡化的雙重衝擊,所以說用經濟移民政策來補貼我國的勞動力缺口。"},{"start":170.149,"end":184.724,"text":"好 現在問題就來你剛剛有講說我們這邊吸引大家的地方在於就是說自然很好 住起來還蠻舒服的 對不對可是這跟產業其實沒有什麼直接的關係 對不對我們可以看到各國移民政策其實大家講的也都老生常談"},{"start":185.325,"end":212.544,"text":"大家其實都希望用經濟移民來讓國家的這個產業發展來更加強盛好比說英國因應產業的需求STEM的專業人才新加坡一樣這個是他用科技簽證的方式來處理吸引這個高科技的人才日本希望的是金融外專的人才以及等等但實務上這些國家即便他希望是透過有一個產業經濟移民的角度實際上來說都還是不見得能夠執行到位"},{"start":213.044,"end":225.151,"text":"譬如說日本招募外籍生希望留用這個外籍生然後來補貼勞動力但是還沒有畢業就因為高額的生活費不得不打工變成了所謂的學工台灣有沒有學工的問題"},{"start":227.13,"end":244.008,"text":"台灣學生來這邊教育部是有規定在每週20小時之內是准許他們來打工的對啦 准許但是有沒有變黑工的問題變成超額勞動或者是本質上變成來勞動而不是在念書"},{"start":245.269,"end":266.381,"text":"應該是有的嘛 對不對這教育部也做過調查若干的個案我們今天時間有限了是有的嘛 對不對好 國防部的報告講說我們面對這個雙重挑戰希望透過移民政策來解決缺口現在我就問移民署到底我們要不要用開放的移民政策來當成勞動力缺口的解方政策方向"},{"start":266.929,"end":293.223,"text":"在勞動力方面 其實剛剛委員也有說得很清楚就是高階的部分 我們其實是有外國人才的原卵雇用法那在比較低階的男女人力的部分 已經來到了76萬就檢討各產業的需求 我們現在講的是移民就是說你要不要乾脆 例如說比照新加坡的模式新加坡的案例就是廣納 廣開大門 歡迎大家來"},{"start":295.484,"end":296.467,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":308.644,"end":333.211,"text":"審慎去檢討這個部分恐怕我沒有辦法做很明確的回答今天我們花一點點時間去討論移民政策的原因就是這個事情當然知識體大但我想新的政府上台之後移民政策是一個很重要的東西因為少子化跟高齡化已經大軍壓境再不討論大家再把頭埋在土裡是沒有意義的事情不管要開放還是要保守都要有一個明確的態度好不好這是我今天要提醒署長的部分再來次長"},{"start":334.144,"end":361.317,"text":"有請花次長謝謝我們今天在討論這個新住民基本法就是因為我覺得這個法案有兩個重大意義第一個叫做宣誓意義宣誓意義就是我們的法條如果有專門的法律法案去保障新住民的權益我們在剛剛去花那麼多時間去談移民政策你才可以跟全世界講說我們是重視移民的我們是重視新住民權益保障的這樣的一個國家"},{"start":362.017,"end":362.437,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":371.449,"end":394.926,"text":"市長你是內政部是天下第一大部對不對各種業務這麼繁重我們也就13、14個對不對內政委員會我們要從這個都市計畫管到警消這個這麼多的事情要討論對不對其實在各個部門都一樣你很難啊就理論上理想中的狀態啊都是各個部門都要重視新住民的權益叫真正的平等可是實務上來說做不到這件事"},{"start":395.606,"end":411.036,"text":"所以不管是新住民也好原住民也好等等在少數跟弱勢的族群我們會需要所謂的專職單位就是因為要有的專職單位把這個話語權來做提升在跨部會協調的時候它有它的份量跟重要性它的政策的比重跟關注度才會提升"},{"start":411.616,"end":430.584,"text":"所以這是這一部法案的實質意義它既有宣示的意義也有實質的意義其實它是有充分的正當性剛剛市長在答詢其他委員的時候講說我們要發現問題解決問題我要告訴市長發現解決問題就像我們提案說明一樣你從106年講到現在也夠了啦該次要有一部明確的法案要往前走了啦"},{"start":431.224,"end":456.676,"text":"之前提過新住民保障法這基本草案這本黨之前的立法委員林立禪委員他有講他說我們在社會倡議為了要幫新住民爭取權益我們當然要講好講滿但是講好講滿的用意是要政府提出相對問候的版本然後大家在妥協的過程中前進我就非常認同這樣的概念但是我們這樣去提之後顯然到現在連院版都沒有出來我想這是讓很多新住民好朋友是非常非常失望的"},{"start":457.176,"end":457.576,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":475.504,"end":475.804,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"}]}},{"id":"151844","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151844","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6034ffcba05f5a7075b40abc3f7af24af34e2527b10508eeed6e9e66fec18c7355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:00:27 - 10:07:39","影片長度":"00:07:12","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。\n\n備註：4月29日（星期一）、5月1日(星期三)【兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":432,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:07:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:00:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":560,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（10時）謝謝主席，我們有請花次長。"],["主席：有請花次長。"],["花次長敬群：黃委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：次長早安。本席上禮拜回去臺東，地方的耆老有教我一句閩南語，叫做「有毛食到棕簑，無毛食到秤錘」，這句話我後來瞭解到他講的意思，剛好滿適合我們這次光電弊案的發展，滿貼切的。我想要請教一下次長整個的偵查結果，時任能源局太陽光電組的組長林文信涉嫌關說，涉嫌圖利金額91億元，沒想到這個林文信組長還在110年獲得模範公務人員。想請教行政院，如果就這個相關的規定，我們對被起訴的公務人員，是不是可以註銷他的模範公務人員資格，以及他的獎金、獎座等等？有沒有這個規定？"],["花次長敬群：報告委員，這應該是經濟部能源署的，不是內政部的事情，所以這個部分我們比較沒有掌握。"],["黃委員建賓：沒有啦，模範公務人員的部分啊！"],["花次長敬群：那應該都是行政院在處理，抱歉，這個部分我可能要瞭解一下，我再跟您報告好嗎？"],["黃委員建賓：次長，我先跟您補充……"],["主席：人事行政總處組編人力處的專門委員今天在吧？來，你回答一下好不好？您請上臺。","黃委員，對不起，我幫你暫停一下時間。"],["黃委員建賓：好，時間暫停，謝謝。"],["主席：張專門委員請到這邊來，謝謝。我希望今天與會的官員們，如果委員有垂詢的部分，請你們要隨時進入狀況，好不好？要好好聽一下委員的質詢，他們今天來質詢都是準備了很多的資料，而不是覺得事不關己，只讓次長在這邊回答。來，請說明。"],["張專門委員雅惠：委員好。不好意思，我這邊是組編人力處，今天來是就專責機構的部分。因為剛剛提到模範公務人員，在會場我有聽到，我本來是想要LINE詢問一下的，我本來想說是不是待會準備好了之後，我可以再補充報告？"],["黃委員建賓：OK，謝謝專門委員的回復。"],["張專門委員雅惠：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：本席補充啦，依照行政院表揚模範公務人員要點第九點，明定「各機關遴薦人員獲選為模範公務人員，如有不實或舛錯者，應由原遴薦之辦理機關報請本院撤銷其資格，其已領受之獎座（含證書）及金額應予追繳，尚未實施之公假不予實施；另有關人員應依情節予以議處。」次長，我這樣跟你說明。"],["花次長敬群：謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：這邊我也請次長趕快來處理這件事情，因為你看，這個是很大的諷刺，他是模範公務人員，然後不久之後，他就因為這件事情被起訴。"],["花次長敬群：經濟部應該會去處理。"],["黃委員建賓：好，我們還是回到今天的修法，謝謝次長。我想今天非常多委員提到，有關我們新住民權益的這個法案，多年來各界呼籲政府要比照原民會、客委會成立新住民委員會，但行政院並沒有採納，只是決議定期召開跨部會的相關事務協調會議，我想這非常可惜，本席是非常支持立法的，原因很簡單，其實這個社會對於新住民還是充滿歧視，如果有到比較偏鄉的地方，次長可能就會瞭解，有時候用閩南語講起來都不是很中聽，「他是外國嫁來的」，「他是越南仔」，其實這都是很歧視的話。臺灣身為一個多元的移民社會，我們臺灣是一個多元的社會、是一個移民城市，文化多元是我們最大的價值跟核心，我想這個部分還是要再繼續努力。"],["花次長敬群：當然，這個一定要努力，人民的素質真的非常重要。"],["黃委員建賓：所以政府部門也是要做一個反應給人家知道，因為我們既然要把他們當作一家人，我們就要用對一家人的方式來看待他們。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["黃委員建賓：我想這個是整個政府的態度。這麼多年以來，其實我們一直針對這件事情在做努力，身為一個民主國家，我覺得這個是必要的。","那在這邊我要再次提到的是，次長，你有沒有發現其實新住民除了被歧視以外，他的下一代還有一些身心的狀況？比如飲食的障礙這件事情。跟次長報告，在111年的時候我們新住民學生的人口為28.5萬人，已經占了全體學生的7%，因為他們被歧視的關係，在文化上他們也有心理的障礙，那這個會反映在飲食上面。根據臺大公衛最新研究報告發現，我們新住民的子女，比起一般的青少年，更容易產生飲食失序的行為，未來在飲食障礙症上的風險會變高。次長，你們應該是沒有注意到這個情況吧？"],["花次長敬群：我們沒有注意到這個，因為那個比較是屬於衛福部相關的業務。"],["黃委員建賓：對，次長，你剛才一直說要提出有哪些沒有做到的部分嘛。"],["花次長敬群：謝謝委員，我們會記錄下來。"],["黃委員建賓：那這個部分請次長還有相關單位來注意。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["黃委員建賓：我想這樣子的狀況會引發的情況，包括未來這個學生焦慮、失眠、自殺的想法會增加，飲食失序的行為也是身心出現問題的早期症狀，我們不趕快訂立新住民基本法，我想將來會伴隨更多的社會問題，我們要付出的社會成本會更大。再次呼籲，儘速完成新住民相關權益的法案，我想這個勢在必行。","最後，本席想要再拜託次長，我們回到這次0403花蓮地震的這個事情，花蓮地震我們成立了專案小組來協助，跨部會整合協調，來推動整個花蓮的復興跟重建，後續內政部也會主導，也會進入花蓮來成立危老重建輔導團隊跟花蓮重建辦公室，是不是這樣？"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["黃委員建賓：看來內政部會負責整個災區的重建、溝通跟協調，在這邊我要拜託次長，內政部在重建的過程裡面，花東是一條心，連在一塊，也不要忘記我們臺東縣，不管是在整個公部門或私人住宅的耐震補強跟重建這一塊。另外，我們臺東需要協助的部分，是不是也可以請次長發文給臺東縣政府？"],["花次長敬群：這個部分可能會分階段，我想因為花蓮現在是主要的災區，所以我們是以災區優先處理，當然我們會擴及全國所有縣市，後續這些危險建築物、海砂屋等等，需要補強、需要重建，未來當然也會擴及到全國所有縣市。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝次長的回應。"],["花次長敬群：謝謝委員。"],["主席：非常謝謝建賓委員的質詢，謝謝次長。","繼續我們請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":448,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","丁學忠","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","羅美玲"],"page_start":345,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新\n住民權益保障法草案」案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(三)審查委\n員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」\n案、( 五) 審查委員蘇巧慧等 26 人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案；二、繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 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審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民權益保障法"},{"start":57.189,"end":83.736,"text":"這些是不是可以註銷他的模範公務員的資格?然後他的獎金、獎座等等這些規定,有沒有這個規定?這應該是經濟部能源署的,不是內政部的事情。沒有啦,他這個模範公務員的啊。模範公務員的部分啊。那應該都是行政院在那個,這個部分抱歉,我可能要了解一下,我再跟你們報告好嗎?市長,我先跟你們報告。人事行政總署編列專門委員在吧,今天。"},{"start":86.084,"end":86.104,"text":"張專門委員"},{"start":97.677,"end":116.81,"text":"請到這邊來謝謝我希望今天與會的官員們因為如果委員有詢詢的部分請你們隨時要進入狀況好不好要好好聽一下委員的質詢他們今天來的質詢都是準備了很多的資料而不是覺得事不關己只讓我們的次長在這邊做回答來請說明"},{"start":118.812,"end":134.843,"text":"委員好那不好意思我這邊是因為是主編任立初那今天來的話是就那個專責機構的部分那因為剛剛提到公務人員模範工人我有聽到在會場我有聽到我本來是想要賴一下的那我本來想說是不是我們待會準備好了之後我可以再補充報告"},{"start":135.743,"end":145.669,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．新住民權益保障法草案．新住民權益保障法草案．新住民權益保障法草案．新住民權益保障法草案．新住民權益保障法草案．新住民權益保障法草案．"},{"start":165.1,"end":182.552,"text":"市長 請市長趕快來處理這件事情因為你看這個很大的統治他是模範公務人員然後不久之後他就被起訴這件事情經濟部應該會去處理我們還是回到今天的修法 謝謝市長"},{"start":184.034,"end":206.255,"text":"今天提到關於新住民權益保障法草案,多年來各界呼籲政府要比照,包括原民會、客委會、成立新住民委會,行政院並沒有採納,只是決議定期召開跨部會相關事務協調會,非常可惜,本席是非常支持地方。"},{"start":207.015,"end":235.529,"text":"很簡單,這個社會還是對於新住民有充滿歧視,如果有到比較偏鄉的地方,市場可能就會了解,有時候用閩南語講起來都不是很正、不是很重要,那是外國語,外國語,外國語,外國語,其實都是很歧視的話。台灣身為一個多元的移民社會,我們當然是一個多元的社會,我們是一個移民的移民城市,"},{"start":236.169,"end":237.75,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":264.446,"end":279.777,"text":"OK 那這邊我再次提到就是說我們在部長你有沒有發現其實新住民其實在歧視以外還有一些他的下一代還有一些身心的狀況比如說飲食的障礙這件事情"},{"start":282.509,"end":308.66,"text":"跟部長報告在111年的時候我們新住民現在學生佔了28.5萬人口他已經佔了全體學生的百分之七巴仙了那因為他被歧視的關係在文化上是有心理的障礙那這會不會反映在飲食上面那根據我們台大公衛最新研究的報告發現我們新住民的子女比起一般的青少年子女更容易產生這個飲食失序的行為那未來在飲食障礙症的這個風險會更高"},{"start":310.521,"end":310.681,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":331.869,"end":350.571,"text":"這樣子的狀況會引發的情況包括未來這學生的焦慮、失眠、自強的想法,它會增加。那隱形思緒的行為也是早期生意狀況出現問題的症狀。我們不趕快立這個新住民基本法,我想將來會伴隨更多的社會問題,我們要付出的社會成本會更大。"},{"start":351.212,"end":379.678,"text":"案,再次呼籲趕快結束完成新住民相關權益的法案,我先用這個事實來例行。最後本席想要再拜託次長,讓我們回到這次0403花蓮地震的這個事情。我們花蓮地震我們成立了專業小組來協助,跨部會來整合協調,然後來推動我們整個花蓮的復興跟重建。後續內政部會主導進入花蓮成立這個危老重建輔導團隊跟花蓮重建辦公室,是不是這個?"},{"start":379.678,"end":379.698,"text":"是。"},{"start":381.178,"end":405.749,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第1會期內政委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第1會期內政委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第1會期內政委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第1會期內政委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案�"},{"start":410.72,"end":411.581,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"}]}},{"id":"151843","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151843","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6eafc8d1a8f81e8975b40abc3f7af24af34e2527b10508eee1a0a9a543799ef415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:53:43 - 10:00:04","影片長度":"00:06:21","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。\n\n備註：4月29日（星期一）、5月1日(星期三)【兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":381,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:00:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:53:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":512,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時53分）我請次長跟署長。"],["主席（高金委員素梅）：有請次長跟署長，謝謝。"],["花次長敬群：張委員好。"],["張委員宏陸：次長，今天很多委員提了很多相關新住民權益的法案，有基本法、權益保障法案，我想先請教一個問題，就是我們有沒有必要來訂定相關於新住民的專法？"],["花次長敬群：報告委員，確實這是一個大哉問，也就是說我們的目的是什麼，我們是因為什麼原因、什麼事情沒做好，所以需要用一個專法來處理，我覺得這就是一個核心問題，這一點如果可以釐出來比較清楚，當然該訂定，當然行政院絕對拼了命也要把它做出來。"],["張委員宏陸：好，沒有錯。再來，我們所有現行的相關法案裡面，對於新住民的權利、新住民的權益、新住民的等等，對他們該做的，我們有沒有都規範到了？"],["花次長敬群：我想各部會在不管從教育、文化、就業、生活等等面向，就以國人的角度，該做的其實都有做，但是我當然知道，因為新住民有各種如他的語言、他的生活適應甚至還有部分國人的歧視等等而導致的一些困難，這些事情的不足，我們把問題點找出來，其實該怎麼樣來精進我們都會來努力。"],["張委員宏陸：次長，說的都沒有錯啦！我簡單問一個問題，新住民要不要包括移工？"],["花次長敬群：包括什麼？"],["張委員宏陸：移工，要不要包括？"],["花次長敬群：因為他們不是長期待在臺灣的一群人，所以他們在國際上都不會被視為住民，因為住民基本上要有長期居留或永久居留的。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦！我知道，我是問要不要包括啦！"],["花次長敬群：我們是覺得不宜啦！"],["張委員宏陸：好，所以光這個可能大家的看法就有分歧了啦！"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以依現行的法令，我們先來探討一個問題，很多的新住民嫁來臺灣，其實他們另一半的年紀都比他們大很多，是不是這樣？署長，依你們的統計？"],["鐘署長景琨：之前可能比較有這種現象，我是覺得早期比較會有。"],["張委員宏陸：對不對？"],["花次長敬群：早期啦！"],["張委員宏陸：反正有這個事實嘛！對不對？"],["鐘署長景琨：對。"],["張委員宏陸：好，現在問題來了，我們就簡單來講，據我手頭上的資料，在臺灣居住滿10年以上的新住民占了六成，但是大約19萬的新住民本身已經超過50歲，很多他們的另一半已經不在了，那他們就面臨一個問題，長照的問題，對不對？長照的問題就來囉！我跟你講，而且有些新住民雖然有資格可以歸化，但他不申請歸化，因為可能原國籍地方的福利也不錯，或什麼等等也不錯。再來還有一個問題，我簡單舉一個例好了，我們現在低收入戶的補助等等，新住民在原國籍，他的父母親或什麼有財產也列入，這一點要不要檢討？"],["鐘署長景琨：這個部分的確是在檢討當中，我們也跟衛福部提出這個問題。"],["張委員宏陸：在檢討當中，所以你也認為要檢討嘛！對不對？"],["鐘署長景琨：是。"],["張委員宏陸：他可能有很多原因，他在原國籍他們家庭的財產也列入，我相信第一個，除非特例啦！不然應該財產也不多，這樣子就是製造出一些麻煩了，對不對？所以像這一種很急迫又發生的問題，這個我們要處理吧？"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["張委員宏陸：次長，這要處理嗎？"],["花次長敬群：這個要處理，這絕對要處理。"],["張委員宏陸：要處理嘛，你也認同嘛。"],["花次長敬群：我覺得這部分就有點過度要求了。"],["張委員宏陸：對啦，這你也認同嘛！"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["張委員宏陸：他另一半已經走了，他的小孩在這裡，他也不可能回去嘛，對不對？"],["花次長敬群：對。"],["張委員宏陸：這是個簡單的例子，造成了很多的問題，我們就是要去把它解決嘛！"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["張委員宏陸：所以今天才有這麼多委員提出了這個，雖然我們既有的法令都有規範到，也可以幫忙到他們，但就是有不足的地方，所以今天大家才會提出來。再來，我們的原住民、客家人都有比如長照的機構，像原住民有文健站，客家人有伯公站，那新住民要去哪裡？"],["花次長敬群：我想一般還是跟國人一樣。"],["張委員宏陸：重點來了，就是跟國人一樣，對不對？"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["張委員宏陸：他們是要跟國人一樣嘛，對不對？回到我剛剛那個問題，他們要申請中低收入戶，他很多的資料就沒有辦法跟國人一樣，他就沒有辦法很方便地去處理，我覺得法令就是在於解決問題跟方便，我覺得就是這兩個，所以今天可能大家要討論的就是這個問題吧！"],["花次長敬群：委員這樣提醒，我覺得我們確實可以好好做一些新住民生活困難的調查，這個部分我們來努力，如果調查完發現真的有問題的地方，我們積極跨部會來處理，甚至納入行政院的新住民事務協調會報，我們就請院裡面列管、執行。"],["張委員宏陸：對，次長，我的重點就是這個啦，相關法令其實也都有，但是現在相關法令執行起來就是有很多問題發生，所以才會有很多委員關心，這個我們要去解決，好不好？"],["花次長敬群：是，謝謝委員。"],["張委員宏陸：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝宏陸委員的質詢。謝謝花次長，您剛剛的回答會讓人家聽起來比較舒服一點，謝謝。","繼續我們請黃建賓委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":448,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","丁學忠","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","羅美玲"],"page_start":345,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新\n住民權益保障法草案」案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(三)審查委\n員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」\n案、( 五) 審查委員蘇巧慧等 26 人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案；二、繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1133601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.14909375000000002,"end":1.8703437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.1234687500000002,"end":3.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.64596875,"end":16.230968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.04096875,"end":31.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.430968750000005,"end":48.462218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.91784375,"end":51.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.60096875,"end":54.807218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.39784375,"end":64.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.11784375,"end":87.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.78096875,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.02909375,"end":93.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.36659375,"end":93.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.68721875,"end":102.14159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.95159375,"end":103.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.49159375,"end":104.09909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.48284375,"end":105.97221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":105.97221875000001,"end":118.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.12409375,"end":107.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.08034375000001,"end":118.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.06721875000001,"end":132.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.13471875,"end":119.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.76659375000001,"end":126.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.24221875,"end":133.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.72721875000002,"end":137.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.49034375000002,"end":139.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.04284375,"end":142.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.55721875,"end":143.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.61159375,"end":146.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.33284375000002,"end":147.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.85596875000002,"end":147.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.68284375000002,"end":148.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.73346875000001,"end":149.02034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.11721875,"end":150.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.84284375000001,"end":156.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.77471875,"end":161.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.05284375000002,"end":157.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.36471875,"end":159.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.65159375000002,"end":159.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.03096875,"end":165.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.76034375,"end":166.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.49846875,"end":167.71784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.86971875,"end":172.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.21909375,"end":173.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.31159375000001,"end":181.52159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.19659375,"end":183.20909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.47909375,"end":184.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.48721875,"end":186.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.19159375,"end":188.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.50784375,"end":192.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.89534375000002,"end":195.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.05096875,"end":199.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.06721875000002,"end":201.70409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.51409375,"end":203.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.96534375000002,"end":204.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.10034375,"end":212.53784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.79096875000002,"end":214.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.40659375,"end":224.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.09284375000001,"end":225.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.35409375,"end":227.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.61971875,"end":228.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.17659375000002,"end":232.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.66534375,"end":238.00221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.64346875,"end":242.33909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.60909375000003,"end":243.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.52034375000002,"end":246.97971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.18221875,"end":249.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.50659375,"end":251.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.46846875000003,"end":254.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.89409375000002,"end":263.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.10034375000004,"end":258.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02"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審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案： 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草"},{"start":134.755,"end":143.348,"text":"很多的新住民其實嫁來台灣他的另一半年紀都比他大很多是不是這樣呢 署長你們的統計"},{"start":150.151,"end":173.522,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案"},{"start":175.353,"end":201.395,"text":"大約19萬人新住民本身已經超過50歲了那很多他的另一半已經不在了已經不在了那他就面臨的一個問題囉長照的問題來囉對不對長照的問題就來囉我跟你講而且有些新住民他雖然有資格"},{"start":202.557,"end":225.771,"text":"可以規劃但他不申請規劃因為他可能原國籍的地方福利也不錯或什麼等等也不錯那再來有一個問題就是說來我簡單舉一個好了我們現在低收入戶的補助等等的新住民在他原國籍他的父母親或什麼有財產也列入也列入"},{"start":230.77,"end":253.217,"text":"這一點要不要檢討?這個部分的確是在檢討當中,我們也跟衛福提出這個問題。在檢討當中,所以你也認為要檢討嘛?對不對?他有可能很多原因,那他在原國籍他們家庭的財產也列入,我相信第一個除非特例啦,不然應該財產也不多。"},{"start":254.938,"end":255.418,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":278.052,"end":278.312,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":298.124,"end":313.056,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案"},{"start":318.761,"end":345.997,"text":"一般還是跟國人一樣嘛重點來了就是跟國人一樣他們是要跟國人一樣嘛回到我剛剛那個問題他要申請中低收入護照他很多的資料就沒有辦法跟國人一樣他就沒有辦法很方便的去處理我覺得法令就是解決問題跟方便我覺得就是這兩個所以今天可能大家要討論的就是這個問題吧"},{"start":347.177,"end":365.243,"text":"委員這樣提醒我覺得我們確實可以好好做一個新住民生活困難的一些調查啦齁那這部分我們來努力齁我們來努力那如果調查完發現真的有問題的地方我們積極跨部會來處理甚至納入行政院的新住民事務協調匯報我們就請院裡面列管就來執行對"},{"start":366.903,"end":378.297,"text":"市長 我要的重點就是這裡啦相關法令其實也都有但是相關法律現在執行起來就是有很多問題發生嘛所以才會有很多委員關心嘛這個我們就是要去解決啦好不好謝謝 謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"151842","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151842","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6e9ce5efeeb207fe35b40abc3f7af24af34e2527b10508eeeb87984df7be5c61d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"09:45:07 - 09:53:27","影片長度":"00:08:20","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。\n\n備註：4月29日（星期一）、5月1日(星期三)【兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":500,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:53:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:45:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":430,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（9時45分）謝謝大家。我對麥玉珍委員的陳述非常有感，尤其他是代表新住民進入立法院，所以他對這個議題一定是很熟悉，而且一定在基層看到、碰到非常多問題，尤其是家暴的問題。玉珍，你要加油！你在臺灣這段歷程，我們看到了！辛苦你了，加油！","繼續我們請一下花次長。"],["主席：次長，有請。"],["高金委員素梅：次長，我先說，在2019年的時候，蔡總統非常重視新住民，所以他特別用6種語言向新住民尋求支持。然後我們也可以看到相關的人數，根據內政部移民署、教育部、勞動部的統計，我們的外籍配偶有五十九萬三千餘人，大專院校境外生大概十萬三千多人，外國專業人員五萬四千多人，移工七十五萬六千餘人，總數151萬人。這151萬人就是我們所有的政治人物或者政黨很想要吸取的人數，所以在2019年的時候，蔡英文總統為了要競選連任，推出使用6種語言的廣告，向我們的新住民尋求支持，玉珍委員在這邊質詢的時候也曾經講過。請問一下次長，蔡政府任期已經剩不到1個月了，你給蔡政府對新住民的政策總體打幾分？"],["花次長敬群：我想我不宜做這個打分數的動作？"],["高金委員素梅：那你認為做得好不好？"],["花次長敬群：大家當然都是盡力，我們都很努力在做，而且新住民……"],["高金委員素梅：那你覺得有沒有需要改進或者改善的地方？"],["花次長敬群：其實我想新住民現階段在臺灣的生活還是得到相當大的國人的支持……"],["高金委員素梅：因為您剛剛說只有10億啊！發展基金10億啊！"],["花次長敬群：除了各部會的相關資源之外，我們另外又額外加了10億……"],["高金委員素梅：其他各部會的資源……"],["花次長敬群：就像新住民申請租金補貼、社會住宅……"],["高金委員素梅：其他各部會的資源……"],["花次長敬群：我另外都會給啊！"],["高金委員素梅：請你不要跟我辯論好不好？"],["花次長敬群：我不是跟你辯論，我是跟你說明。"],["高金委員素梅：因為就是非常的不滿足，所以今天那麼多委員，包括民眾黨、包括國民黨才會提出新住民基本法草案嘛！"],["花次長敬群：是！"],["高金委員素梅：你剛剛講得「躼躼長」，講了這麼多，如果今天政府真的做得好的話，我們需要在這邊討論這個問題嗎？應該不用吧！所以一定是有做不好的部分嘛！你應該說「我們虛心檢討」，然後因為蔡英文總統對新住民有承諾，所以「我們努力改進」，你應該是這樣講啊！"],["花次長敬群：我們持續地在滾動檢討，對！"],["高金委員素梅：你一點都不謙卑耶！我先給你譴責一下！"],["花次長敬群：不會、不會，我們真的是很認真地在瞭解。"],["高金委員素梅：好吧！我再給你一點時間，你再改正、修正一下你的說法。需不需要修正？"],["花次長敬群：我覺得做不好的當然要再補強。"],["高金委員素梅：好，很好，那你覺得哪一些做不好？"],["花次長敬群：我想這就需要大家再多給我們一些……"],["高金委員素梅：你自己都沒感覺喔！"],["花次長敬群：我們內部當然有做一些討論。"],["高金委員素梅：政府都沒感覺是做得好或做不好？"],["花次長敬群：政府有非常多的掌握，但是我想有沒有嚴重到需要立基本法……"],["高金委員素梅：那你們掌握，有沒有去修正呢？"],["花次長敬群：我覺得有沒有嚴重到……"],["高金委員素梅：我沒有跟你講基本法，在沒有基本法之前你覺得有沒有修正？"],["花次長敬群：我們當然持續在滾動檢討當中啊！"],["高金委員素梅：花次長，你很油腔滑調，我不喜歡這樣的次長！"],["花次長敬群：不是，委員，如果有哪一個部分具體沒有做好，我們當然改。"],["高金委員素梅：我的質詢一向是非常的理性，所以你認為有沒有繼續改善的空間？"],["花次長敬群：當然有、當然有。"],["高金委員素梅：好，根據我們看到的，我就講幾個，新住民培力發展資訊網和新住民數位資訊網有六種語言版本，可是移民署最重要，你們的網站幾乎是國際平臺，而你們的新住民發展基金平臺的申請表格和說明文件只有中文，需不需要改進？所以在語言部分你們非常的不友善啊！光是語言的部分，你們就非常的不友善啊！是不是需要改進？"],["花次長敬群：我想如果說……"],["高金委員素梅：移民署的代表有沒有來？"],["花次長敬群：署長在這邊。"],["高金委員素梅：對啊！你為什麼不說話呢？"],["鐘署長景琨：謝謝委員垂詢，基金的部分……"],["高金委員素梅：不要浪費我的時間！"],["鐘署長景琨：是，基金的部分，主要是中央……"],["高金委員素梅：你們的申請表跟說明文件只有中文，你們覺得是不是需要按照蔡總統說的要有六種語言？"],["鐘署長景琨：是，這個部分我說明一下……"],["高金委員素梅：要不要改進？"],["鐘署長景琨：最主要是中央、地方政府機關及NGO團體在申請，是國內的申請。"],["高金委員素梅：要不要改進、需不需要改進？"],["鐘署長景琨：是，這個部分我們再做討論好了。"],["高金委員素梅：這樣就好了嘛！我覺得今天的官員很奇怪，你們的態度真的是讓我們非常的不喜歡。你不要回答，我還沒有請你回答，謝謝。我再請問次長，如果中文聽不懂的新住民，這個時候、此時此刻立法院正在直播，我請問一下，我們正在討論他們的權益，你認為他們會聽得懂嗎？所以在語言的環境上，是不是你們需要再加強努力呢？"],["花次長敬群：當然是，如果能夠多一點傳遞，當然更好。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝你。我們聽一下最關心人權的人權委員會是怎麼表示的，去年的消除一切形式種族歧視國際公約國家報告中，國家人權委員會特別針對我們的政府對於新住民的施政提出的批評有幾點，不是我講的喔，是國家人權委員會的書面所提的，第一個，在通譯制度上，我們的政府沒有積極推動和建置符合新住民需求的通譯服務。第二個，在境外結婚面談的政策上，哪些國家的人民會被要求面談，沒有明確的衡量標準，這導致新住民不知所措。第三個，新住民遭受種族歧視，內政部申訴審議小組的申訴管道資訊非常不明確，也沒有提供多國語言，這等於是政府帶頭再一次的歧視新住民。而我會這麼樣的關注新住民的權益，我在今天還特別排了新住民基本法的審查，是因為原住民族跟新住民是一樣的，都是我們政府在選前的時候非常重視，然後選後就拋棄的族群。","所以花次長還有署長，我在這裡真的提醒你們，因為你們做不好，包括國家人權委員會都已經告訴你們有那麼多要改進的地方，你們還不虛心檢討嗎？"],["花次長敬群：報告委員，其實我們都不斷地持續在精進。"],["高金委員素梅：更何況今天沒有行政院版本。"],["花次長敬群：關於剛剛委員提到的通譯制度，其實在去年12月21號已經核定新的精進方案，其實也做了非常多，當然境外面談基本上是外交部在執行，這個部分內政部不便多說，也就是說……"],["高金委員素梅：那你覺得身為一個政府是不是橫向聯繫時都要把這些提出來講？這才是政府，政府是一體的，不要告訴我內政部有你們的工作……"],["花次長敬群：我們都在不斷地發覺問題、改善問題……"],["高金委員素梅：然後教育部有教育部的工作、移民署有移民署的工作……"],["花次長敬群：我們絕對不會逃避問題，當然……"],["高金委員素梅：好，絕對不會逃避問題，蔡政府剩下最後一個月了，請問你們如何逃避2019年蔡英文總統曾經承諾過我們的新住民？"],["花次長敬群：這幾年來其實……"],["高金委員素梅：態度的問題！"],["花次長敬群：一直都在努力，也都在精進，其實我們態度從來都是謙卑而努力的。"],["高金委員素梅：如果今天有精進、努力，代表新住民的立法委員麥玉珍委員就不會想要提出新住民基本法了。"],["花次長敬群：並不是說沒有行政院版的基本法就代表行政院不重視新住民，我認為這樣講不公平……"],["高金委員素梅：那你認為應該怎麼樣才是重視？"],["花次長敬群：如果說有看到問題、提出問題，我們解決問題，這才是重要。"],["高金委員素梅：好，你現在看到什麼問題了？"],["花次長敬群：我想委員要來提這個版本，你一定有什麼重要的問題需要政府來……"],["高金委員素梅：今天你來這裡要處理新住民基本法，你認為有什麼問題？"],["花次長敬群：我覺得就是要來好好溝通，到底新住民基本法是用立法的方式，還是用核心問題處理的方式……"],["高金委員素梅：花次長，你很油腔滑調，我們不太喜歡這樣子……"],["花次長敬群：我覺得大家不需要用油腔滑調來說別人，因為大家都是很努力地在做事情。"],["高金委員素梅：我們不太喜歡這樣子的公務人員及次長！我們不太希望，不要以為你一個月之後也許還在這個位置或也許會不在就用這樣的態度，今天本席、召委就排，待會好好聽你們來說明，謝謝。"],["花次長敬群：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝高金素梅委員。","下一位請張宏陸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":448,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","丁學忠","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","羅美玲"],"page_start":345,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新\n住民權益保障法草案」案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(三)審查委\n員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」\n案、( 五) 審查委員蘇巧慧等 26 人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案；二、繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1133601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.38534375,"end":9.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.98721875,"end":10.662218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.93221875,"end":15.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.19721875,"end":18.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.57221875,"end":21.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.407218750000002,"end":25.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.32221875,"end":26.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.562218750000003,"end":30.844718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.844718750000002,"end":30.895343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.895343750000002,"end":30.96284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.96284375,"end":30.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.97971875,"end":31.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.637843750000002,"end":37.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.79721875,"end":42.674093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.315343750000004,"end":45.812843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.454093750000006,"end":54.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.773468750000006,"end":58.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.05971875,"end":62.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.77221875,"end":65.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.21909375,"end":68.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.83034375,"end":89.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.82284375,"end":94.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.81784375000001,"end":97.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.78784375000001,"end":104.28471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.48784375000001,"end":102.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.52534375,"end":106.74846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.84971875000001,"end":112.70534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.52409375,"end":114.64596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.88221875,"end":124.97346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.06721875000001,"end":126.01971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.34471875000001,"end":127.01534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.04909375000001,"end":164.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.64221875,"end":139.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.66471875000002,"end":158.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.05659375000002,"end":162.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.59596875,"end":167.24534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.71784375000001,"end":169.89471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.89471875,"end":171.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.00409375,"end":177.35346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.18096875,"end":175.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.88096875000002,"end":179.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.18034375000002,"end":185.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.94784375,"end":188.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.03971875000002,"end":189.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.55409375000002,"end":201.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.19909375,"end":198.04221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.11784375000002,"end":201.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.29909375000003,"end":201.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.73784375000002,"end":204.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.41659375,"end":214.39409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.64721875,"end":221.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.84846875000002,"end":227.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.75909375,"end":230.83034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.83034375000003,"end":231.77534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.80909375000002,"end":232.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.17159375000003,"end":235.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.28971875000002,"end":236.38221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.36534375000002,"end":237.22596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.15846875000003,"end":238.84596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.84596875000003,"end":241.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.98471875,"end":243.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.69346875000002,"end":244.73534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.34721875000002,"end":247.18221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.79846875,"end":252.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.17284375000003,"end":260.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.38784375000003,"end":255.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.16346875,"end":262.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.69909375000003,"end":262.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.69034375,"end":264.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.98534375,"end":2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外國專業人員5萬4千多人,一共75萬6千餘人,總數151萬人,可以看到這151萬人就是我們所有的政治人物或政黨很想要吸取的人數。所以在2019年的時候,蔡英文總統為了要競選連任,所以她推出廣告用6種語言,"},{"start":84.241,"end":96.357,"text":"案。 向我們的新住民尋求支持。玉珍委員在這邊質詢的時候也曾經講過。請問一下蔡政府任內已經不到一個月了。你給蔡政府的對新住民的政策總體打幾分?"},{"start":98.11,"end":98.63,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":114.969,"end":138.521,"text":"除了各部會的相關資源之外,我們另外又額外加了11。就像新住民申請住民補貼、社會住宅,我另外也會給。因為就是非常的不滿足,所以今天那麼多委員,包括民眾黨、包括國民黨,才會提出新住民基本法案。"},{"start":139.321,"end":143.542,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":167.846,"end":169.01,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":172.042,"end":177.263,"text":"我想這就需要大家再多給我們一些方式我們內部當然有做一些討論政府非常多的掌握但是我想有沒有嚴重到需要去修正啊我們當然持續滾動啊在檢討當中啊不是 我也有如果有哪一個部分具體沒有做好我們當然敢當然有 當然有"},{"start":201.81,"end":230.609,"text":"根據我們可以看到我就講幾個新住民賠利發展資訊網和新住民的數位資訊網有六種語言版本可是移民署你們最重要你們的網站幾乎是國際平台你們的新住民發展基金平台申請表格和說明文件只有中文需不要改進所以語言的部分你們非常的不友善啊光是講語言的部分你就非常的不友善啊"},{"start":231.946,"end":252.157,"text":"是否需要改進?移民署的代表有沒有來?你為什麼不說話呢?不要浪費我的時間,你們的申請表跟說明文件只有中文,你們覺得是不是需要按照蔡總統要有六種語言?"},{"start":253.497,"end":266.584,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":279.173,"end":294.339,"text":"此時此刻立法院正在直播我請問一下我們正在討論他們的權益你認為他們會聽得懂嗎所以在語言的環境上是不是我們需要再加強努力呢當然是如果說能夠多一點傳遞當然更好我們聽一下"},{"start":298.382,"end":319.017,"text":"最關心人權的人權委員會他們是怎麼說的他在去年說消除一切形式種族歧視國際公約國家報告中國家人權委員會特別針對我們的政府對於新住民的施政提出了批評有幾點第一個不是我講的這是國家人權委員會他的書面說的"},{"start":319.537,"end":340.203,"text":"案。 在通譯制度上,我們的政府沒有積極推動和建制符合新住民需求的通譯服務。在境外結婚的面談政策上,哪些國家人民會被要求面談,沒有明確的衡量標準,導致新住民不知所措?"},{"start":341.683,"end":367.993,"text":"新住民遭受種族歧視內政部申訴審議小組的申訴管道的資訊非常不明確也沒有提供多國的語言這等於政府帶頭再一次的歧視新住民而我會這麼樣的關注新住民的權益我在今天還特別排了新住民基本法的審查是因為原住民族跟新住民是一樣的"},{"start":369.513,"end":390.383,"text":"當時我們的政府在選前的時候非常重視然後選後了之後就拋棄了族群所以花次長還有署長在這裡真的提醒你們因為你們做不好包括國家人權委員會都已經告訴你們有那麼多的改進的地方你們還不虛心檢討嗎更何況今天沒有行政院版本"},{"start":397.045,"end":422.504,"text":"我們其實關於剛委員提到的通緯制度其實在去年12月21號已經核定新的經濟方案其實也做了非常多那當然境外面談基本上是外交部在執行這個部分當然內政部不便多說啦那你覺得身為一個政府是不是橫向聯繫都要把這些都提出來講呢這才是政府政府是一體的不要告訴我你內政部有內政部通訪然後教育部有改善問題嗎我們絕對不會逃避問題啊"},{"start":426.287,"end":435.696,"text":"絕對不會逃避問題蔡政府剩下最後一個月了請問你們如何逃避2019年蔡英文總統曾經承諾我們的新住民過"},{"start":438.36,"end":456.689,"text":"這幾年來其實一直都在努力、都在精進,其實我們態度從來都在深刻努力的。如果今天有精進努力,代表新住民的立法委員、蔓越真委員都會想要提出我們來研究新住民的基本法。並不是說沒有行政院版的基本法就代表行政院不重視新住民。那你認為應該怎麼樣才重視?那你認為應該怎麼樣才重視?如果說有看到問題、提出問題、我們解決問題,這才是重要的。好,你現在看到什麼問題了?"},{"start":461.65,"end":467.639,"text":"我想委員要來提這個版本你一定有什麼重要的問題需要政府來提那你認為今天你要來這裡要處理新住民的基本法你認為有什麼問題"},{"start":472.54,"end":473.221,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"}]}},{"id":"151841","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151841","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e60c323226e38090025b40abc3f7af24af34e2527b10508eeef0154244ba07af355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:37:17 - 09:44:58","影片長度":"00:07:41","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra 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有請次長本席看了移民署的報告請問次長瞭解新住民來台灣後主要的困難在哪裡其實當然適應和語言隔閡我覺得當然是一個最核心的部分"},{"start":26.646,"end":27.107,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":40.097,"end":55.849,"text":"身份與國人權益義務與國人無益如在涉專責法保障的恐怕有資源重複的情形依照這樣子的機制如何解決問題無需要訂定專法"},{"start":57.33,"end":63.694,"text":"把責任推得乾乾淨淨,這些移民的即使取得台灣身份證、語言與社會還有文化經濟融合的問題依然還是存在。請問內政部認為現行的機制,這樣真的能幫助所有需要幫助的人嗎?"},{"start":78.101,"end":102.573,"text":"我講我們絕對是盡全力再來協助所以剛才我們蘇小慧委員說啦就是做很好盡全力但是達到的目的在哪裡剛才你有報告說你有做了很多培訓培訓就是變成我們新住民跟新二代就變成你們的內政部跟移民署的專業學生所以沒有發展的平台絕對不會是這樣他就是我們的國人他就是我們的中華民國國民"},{"start":103.453,"end":103.613,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":122.167,"end":147.733,"text":"任何人都有各式各樣的問題,沒有任何一個人是沒有問題的。新住民所就是來我們就是問題很多元但是如果是因為婚姻不對等導致就是家暴有很多就是因為家暴後出去外面住了但是要在規劃國籍的時候呢我們要去申請戶籍成本"},{"start":148.653,"end":165.728,"text":"是要先生同意的先生沒有同意的嗎?先生是申請我們先申請不到導致就是夫妻不對等新住民在台灣這樣子繼續受到家暴又沒辦法有其他的權利你覺得這樣子是我們的各個部會夠了嗎?"},{"start":168.018,"end":176.006,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第11屆第2會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第"},{"start":188.223,"end":193.424,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件"},{"start":211.026,"end":238.328,"text":"雖然是說議員還有文化的差異在職場上也容易受到就是工作的歧視所以找工作面臨也很多的問題所以我們只要需要說一個就是問保的新台灣人但是呢在我們的子女的差異剛才就是說我們希望就是我們新住民基本法就是保障剛來的新住民但是有拿到身份證的都是不需要照顧了這個是不對的"},{"start":240.49,"end":246.393,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案件及審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件及審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件及審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件及審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件及審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件及審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案"},{"start":269.986,"end":281.235,"text":"新二代不用18歲啊他生出來就是中華民國國民但是規劃台灣國籍就是在國外的新二代所以這群也是我們要照顧的所以為什麼要納入在裡面是我們的考慮的是照顧的需要照顧的人不是說20歲以後我們還要照顧但是我們的這個部分我們在研議所以我們需要就是說現在的責任機構"},{"start":297.227,"end":297.767,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具"},{"start":314.958,"end":320.762,"text":"案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案"},{"start":341.796,"end":344.838,"text":"在國外還是在國內你最強調的是這個部分我才提出來所以在我們台灣已經說新住民將近60萬人新二代也大概50萬人移工80萬人還有就是我們境外學生有10萬人所以我們希望這個基本法希望說在台灣有一個就是需要一個單一窗口"},{"start":366.992,"end":376.66,"text":"案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障"},{"start":395.275,"end":399.457,"text":"服務這樣的部分的話就減少社會問題也減少很多的資源我們應用這個資源不是大撒逼每個單位我都給錢到最後沒有辦好就是政治需求誰什麼人來申請我就把他撒出去就是我的業務有做好這樣的話因為我看到太多是這樣子了所以我們希望有一個專職的機構有一個單位有一個基本法來去服務"},{"start":423.645,"end":436.908,"text":"我們要栽培要給一機會給大家去發揮給大家去幫助到我們的在台灣剛來的人這個才是真正我們今天要提出來需要的不是說我們有這個部會這邊有錢這邊辦這邊辦到最後我做很多但是到最後都是我們變成專業學生沒有一個真正的照顧到"},{"start":447.423,"end":456.732,"text":"所以希望大家重視這個問題謝謝我們的次長因為今天來你都講的都是我們做了很多但是沒有效果"}]}},{"id":"151840","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151840","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6d6d89087dfd550bb5b40abc3f7af24af34e2527b10508eee2aebae2ba5998d555ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:30:20 - 09:36:59","影片長度":"00:06:39","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。\n\n備註：4月29日（星期一）、5月1日(星期三)【兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":399,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:36:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:30:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":362,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時30分）謝謝主席，我們請花次長。"],["主席：有請花次長。"],["花次長敬群：蘇委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：次長好。今天的新住民保障權益部分，我自己也有提出我的版本「新住民基本法」。我想所有委員提出的版本，甚至包括各黨團，態度都一樣，就是保障新住民權益，讓大家能夠更清楚、國家更知道資源要怎麼配置，這個都沒有問題。可是一方面是我的版本提出之後，內政部有來溝通，就是我們有一些討論，同時跟您請教過。不是到辦公室，免得等一下各位委員說什麼大小眼，沒有！是我跟您請教，然後你剛剛也說了非常多點之後，我確實有看到，雖然我們就有關就醫權利、就學權利、文化等等都一樣，但其實各版本之中我覺得最大的問題還是回到一個，就是我們今天的這部新住民基本法或其他名稱，到底目的是什麼？然後它適用的對象到底是誰？我覺得這個對象一定要確定清楚之後，我們後面在談的權益範圍要擴張到什麼程度，其實才有辦法真正落實。這是我們討論過後，我自己提出版本了再經過細究之後，也開始看到這樣的問題。","首先我就問你，以現行法條來講，次長知不知道我們的現行法條當中有哪幾個法條講到了「新住民」這3個字、對新住民有定義？"],["花次長敬群：目前其實只有基金這個地方才有。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，是內政部的新住民發展基金。"],["花次長敬群：相關法律裡面並不存在「新住民」3個字。"],["蘇委員巧慧：其實還有另外一個，教育部在「新住民就讀大學辦法」裡面也有。遍查所有現行法規，就這兩個有講到「新住民」3個字。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：它的定義上面其實並沒有很清楚，但有直接指涉適用範圍。就如同你剛剛說內政部的新住民發展基金部分，它是指外籍、中國、港澳配偶及其子女；教育部則直接是歸化者。","各委員的版本就不一樣了，包含婚姻關係進來的配偶，有投資、工作的移民，也有他們的子女，甚至包括就學者或者移工。這個範圍到底到哪裡，次長心中有沒有一個輪廓？簡單……"],["花次長敬群：我剛剛在書面報告或者口頭報告大概都提到，以婚姻、就業和投資移民可能會是比較恰當的範疇。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！那其他的，子女的部分，就是因為已經……"],["花次長敬群：其實都已經是國人了嘛！他享有完全平等的國人待遇了。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這就是我們之前討論的時候講到的一個點，我也有一點被你說服，我想各位委員可以聽聽看，我們等一下可以在逐條的時候繼續討論。我認為新住民基本法其實是要保障新住民的權益，可是什麼叫做新住民權益，我想目的是讓這一些現在來到臺灣的人能夠快速融入這個社會……"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我們給予他在融入過程中適當的協助，甚至如果他們是處於比較不利位置的時候，給他多一點的權利保障，理論上我們要做的是這件事情。如果他現在已經是跟我們完全一樣，既沒有語言隔閡，也沒有文化差異的時候，這個保障還應該給予、存在嗎？這就是我在想的，如果到了新二代，所謂及其子女，到底是要達到什麼狀況？因為像原住民，其實我們是因為血統還有認同的關係，可以一代又一代地下去，但如果新住民保障當時是為了融入社會，要弭平gap、落差的話，這個保障到底要到什麼時候？這是第一個部分。","第二個部分，如果我們是要保障讓他融入社會的鴻溝可以被弭平，甚至不是包括什麼就醫、就學，而是通譯或者其他的，因為語言隔閡，對不對？我們剛剛都同意這樣的論點，這樣子移工算不算入？其實也應該算入，因為他們確實就是在融入社會當中最困難的一群！所以問題在於這部法到底要處理到什麼樣的程度，是處理到所有新加入臺灣這個大家庭的有困難的人，我們都要保障他嗎？哇！那麼這樣子我們的設計方法就會不太一樣；反過來，如果是已經到位的時候，這要怎麼停住？","今天我是第一位質詢，跟您討論，也跟各位在場的委員分享，我研讀這部法律之後，我認為其實我們就所謂新加入臺灣這個大家庭的各個人，不管他是由於工作、投資或者婚姻，我們確實都應該要給予保障，而我們今天也是希望做這件事情。後面大家寫的都大同小異，在權利配置上，甚至要設立專責機關，我也有、我的版本也是如此！但我覺得我們今天最先要處理的應該是目的和對象，只有這兩點處理完成之後，我們這部法才有辦法走下去。這是我的看法，不曉得次長覺得如何？"],["花次長敬群：謝謝，委員講得非常非常清楚，意思也就是臺灣對新住民的協助照顧已經有非常多的資源投入，而他一旦變成國人，其實他就等同享有國人的資格。此外我們對於新住民子女，因為他母親可能來自於例如東南亞，所以對於他的培力，甚至他未來的發展機會，我們還比一般對國人子女的照顧，還有他另外發展的新的想像，所以其實是多元在照顧的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，我想今天大家都會有很多問題，我就不占用時間，不過我給次長一個小提醒就好，我知道我們已經做了很多，不過我覺得這句話等一下可以不用一直說，我覺得我們可以做更多。好，謝謝。"],["花次長敬群：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：非常謝謝巧慧的質詢，謝謝次長。","繼續請麥玉珍委員質詢。也請牛煦庭委員代理主席一下，謝謝。"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席（牛委員煦庭代）：次長有請。"],["花次長敬群：麥委員早。"],["麥委員玉珍：本席看了移民署的報告，請問次長瞭解新住民來臺灣後的主要困難在哪裡嗎？"],["花次長敬群：適應和語言隔閡，我覺得當然是最核心的部分。"],["麥委員玉珍：就是語言隔閡，除了這樣就沒有了嘛？但是報告指出「新住民子女及設籍後之新住民，其身分為國人，權利義務均與國人無異，如再另訂專法保障恐有資源重置之情形」，又說「透過現行機制就能解決問題，無須訂定專法」。把責任推得乾乾淨淨！其實這些移民即便已取得臺灣身分證，語言和社會、文化及經濟融入問題依然存在，請問內政部認為現行機制真的能幫助到所有需要幫助的人嗎？"],["花次長敬群：我想我們絕對是盡全力在協助，當然……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以剛才我們蘇巧慧委員也說，就是做很好、盡全力，但是達到的目的在哪裡？剛才你也報告說做了很多，培訓、培訓，我們新住民和新二代就變成你們內政部和移民署的專業學生！所以沒有……"],["花次長敬群：絕對不會是這樣，他就是我們的國人、他就是我們的中華民國國民。"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊！就是專業學生啊！你們學生很多啊！辦很多啊！你剛才講的是這樣啊！對！"],["花次長敬群：其實我們就是用多一點資源來幫助他，所以新住民發展基金每年有10億的預算，其實就是在從事這方面的工作。"],["麥委員玉珍：所以說我們都沒有問題了嗎？"],["花次長敬群：當然不可能……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你們覺得都沒有問題，現在社會上、基本上都沒有問題了嗎？"],["花次長敬群：任何人都有各式各樣的問題，沒有任何一個人是沒有問題的。"],["麥委員玉珍：對啊！所以你們說做很多嘛……"],["花次長敬群：我們是做很多，沒錯！"],["麥委員玉珍：但還是有問題存在嘛！","新住民的問題很多元，包括因為婚姻不對等導致遭受家暴，有很多在家暴後出去外面住，但是在歸化國籍的時候，我們要去申請戶籍謄本是要先生同意的，因為要先生去申請，先生沒有同意的話，我們是申請不到的，導致夫妻關係不對等，新住民在臺灣只能繼續受到家暴，又沒辦法有其他的權利，這樣你覺得各部會做的夠了嗎？"],["花次長敬群：報告委員，家暴其實已經不會需要先生來同意才可以取得設籍等等，所以家暴這個部分……"],["麥委員玉珍：是沒錯，但是申請戶籍謄本要先生同意，因為我們在戶籍裡面只是名字在裡面，所以先生不同意，我們是領不到戶籍謄本的！"],["花次長敬群：這部分我再去瞭解，原則上臺灣在戶籍制度上面已經有相當……"],["麥委員玉珍：所以你們服務那麼多就說夠了，可是連這個那麼小的事情，次長都不瞭解！這樣子怎麼樣說這些機構的服務真的夠呢？"],["花次長敬群：其實臺灣各項制度都有完整的配套，我覺得這些個案式的問題如果還有瑕疵，我們當然儘快把它補足。"],["麥委員玉珍：好。新住民因為語言及文化的差異，在職場上容易受到歧視，找工作也面臨很多問題，雖然我們只是要做一個溫飽的新臺灣人，但我們的子女還是有差異。剛才說我們希望新住民基本法可以保障剛來的新住民，但是有拿到身分證的就不需要照顧了，這是不對的！"],["花次長敬群：不是不需要照顧，是……"],["麥委員玉珍：如果你覺得是這樣的話……"],["花次長敬群：是照顧得更好。"],["麥委員玉珍：你可以統計出來，看多少人有身分證就沒有問題了！這樣是不對的！","還有，我們希望新二代納入我們的對象裡面，這是為什麼？是因為上個會期我們有說，新二代歸化國籍要18歲以上，但是沒有歸化國籍也是需要幫助的嘛！"],["花次長敬群：新二代不用18歲，他生出來就是中華民國國民。"],["麥委員玉珍：但是歸化臺灣國籍，就是在國外的新二代！這群人也是我們要照顧的，所以為什麼要納入在裡面，是我們考慮需要照顧的人，不是說20歲以後我們還要照顧。但是這個部分可以再研議。","如果現在負責新住民的機構已經完善，但是照顧並不完美，所以我們認為，要照顧就要提供機會和平台，不是說我們的……"],["花次長敬群：報告委員，外國籍的子女其實就是外國籍，他就不等同於本國籍的子女。"],["麥委員玉珍：怎麼會是沒有等同呢？現在我們就是希望，我們說少子化嘛！希望我們的子女在國外歸化臺灣國籍嘛！有臺灣國籍，他也是新臺灣人啊！所以怎麼不等同呢？這樣你是不歡迎我們的新二代從國外回來臺灣喔！是不是這樣的意思？"],["花次長敬群：當然不是這樣，其實這些都要有所討論啦！倒不是在所謂的新住民基本法就可以解決這個問題……"],["麥委員玉珍：沒錯！但是我們是列入剛才你強調的，我才要提出來……"],["花次長敬群：它是另外的法系的問題。"],["麥委員玉珍：我們是因為你不瞭解新二代在國外還是在國內，你強調的是這個部分，我才提出來。","臺灣的新住民有將近60萬人，新二代也快50萬人，移工有80萬人，境外學生則有10萬人，所以我們希望這個基本法、希望在臺灣有一個單一窗口來幫助、政府來協助這群在國外的人來臺灣，因為我們政府有很多部門，變成資源分散，栽培人才卻沒有給予機會！還有，臺灣沒有一個統籌新住民的單位，所以現在各黨的版本都提出這個需求，就是希望能有一個單位、一個單一窗口來去服務，這樣可以減少社會問題，也減少很多資源。我們應用這個資源不是大撒幣，每個單位都給錢，到最後沒有辦好就是政治需求，看什麼人來爭取，我就把它撒出去，就代表我的業務有做好。因為我看到太多這樣的情形了，所以我們希望有一個專責機構、有一個單位、有一個基本法來去服務，我們要栽培、要給予機會，讓大家去發揮，讓大家去幫助我們剛來臺灣的人，這才是真正我們今天要提出來、需要的，而不是我們有這個部會、這邊有錢、這邊辦、那邊辦，做很多，但是到最後我們都變成專業學生，並沒有被真正照顧到，所以希望大家重視這個問題。","謝謝次長，因為你今天來，講的都是你們做了很多，但是沒有效果。以上報告！謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝麥玉珍委員。","接下來請高金素梅委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":448,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","丁學忠","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","羅美玲"],"page_start":345,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新\n住民權益保障法草案」案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(三)審查委\n員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」\n案、( 五) 審查委員蘇巧慧等 26 人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案；二、繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1133601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":2.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.570343750000001,"end":5.835968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.422218750000001,"end":7.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.08034375,"end":38.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.99534375,"end":103.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.03596875000001,"end":105.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.09034375,"end":110.20784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.43159375,"end":110.15721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.20784375000001,"end":112.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.81534375000001,"end":114.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.01721875000001,"end":116.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.32909375000001,"end":163.02659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.02659375000002,"end":170.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.36721875,"end":174.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.07971875,"end":177.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.84284375000001,"end":273.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.14846875,"end":289.36971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.53846875,"end":344.26409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.53409375,"end":353.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.51159375000003,"end":385.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.25346875,"end":385.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.32096875,"end":385.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":385.70909375,"end":385.92846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.92846875000004,"end":386.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":386.97471875,"end":395.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.00284375,"end":398.66909375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.109,"end":1.774,"text":"好 謝謝主席 我們請花次長請花次長 謝謝"},{"start":7.755,"end":28.015,"text":"蘇委員長市長好市長今天的這個新住民保障權益的部分我自己也有提出我的版本新住民的基本法那我想所有的委員提出的版本甚至包括各黨團態度都一樣就是保障新住民權益啦讓這個大家能夠更清楚國家更知道資源要怎麼配置這個都沒有問題那可是剛剛喔"},{"start":30.377,"end":52.812,"text":"一方面是我的版本提出之後內政部有來溝通的就是我們有一些討論的同時跟您請教過然後呢不是到辦公室免得等一下各位說什麼大小也沒有是我跟您請教然後呢你剛剛也真的有說了非常多的點了之後我確實有看到雖然我們"},{"start":53.672,"end":54.873,"text":"案。 審查委員"},{"start":70.245,"end":89.069,"text":"然後他適用的對象到底是誰我覺得這個對象一定要能夠確定清楚之後我們後面在談的權益範圍要擴張到什麼程度其實才有辦法真正的落實這是我們在討論過後我自己雖然提出版本之後在經過細部就這個細究之後也開始看到這樣的問題首先那我就問你嘛"},{"start":95.45,"end":113.725,"text":"以現行法條來講的話那市長你知道我們的現行法條當中有哪幾個法條講到了新住民這三個字對新住民有定義目前其實只有基金這個地方才有是內政部的新住民保障基金並不存在新住民三個字"},{"start":115.166,"end":141.402,"text":"其實還有另外一個教育部教育部他在新住民就讀大學辦法裡面也有偏查所有現行法規就這兩個有講到新住民三個字但是他的定義上面其實並沒有很清楚但有直接說指涉的適用範圍就有點剛剛說內政部的這個新住民發展基金的部分他是指外籍中國港澳配偶及其子女那教育部的直接是規劃者"},{"start":142.543,"end":158.631,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委委員會第11屆第2會期內政委員會第3會期內政委員會第4會期內政委員會第5會期內政委員會第6會期內政委員會第7會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第9會期內政委員會第10會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會"},{"start":170.436,"end":175.059,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民基本法草案》案。"},{"start":200.197,"end":201.157,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":220.945,"end":248.42,"text":"是跟我們完全一樣既沒有語言隔閡也沒有文化差異的時候那這個保障還應該給予存在嗎這就是我在想說如果到新二代所謂奇籍子女的時候我們到底要到什麼狀況因為像原住民的話其實我們是因為血統的關係還有認同的關係其實是可以一代又一代下去但如果新住民的保障當時是為了融入社會的這個GAP要把它擬平這個"},{"start":249.74,"end":257.788,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":274.224,"end":274.525,"text":"案。 審查委員"},{"start":289.948,"end":314.881,"text":"新加入台灣這個大家庭的有困難的人我們都要保障他嗎?哇!那這樣子我們的設計方法就會不太一樣那反過來如果是他已經到位了的時候那這要怎麼停住?所以我想今天我就藉著我這個第一日質詢嘛那也跟您討論也跟各位在場的委員分享我在研讀這部法律之後我認為其實我們就"},{"start":317.222,"end":343.948,"text":"所謂新加入台灣這個大家庭的各個人不管他是工作的或者是投資的或者是婚姻的我們確實都應該要給予保障那我們今天也是希望做這件事情所以後面大家寫的都大同小異在權力的配置甚至要設立專責機關我的版本也是如此啊但我覺得我們今天應該要最先處理的是目的"},{"start":344.648,"end":367.896,"text":"案和對象。我覺得只有這兩點處理完成之後,我們這步法才有辦法走下去。這是我的看法,不曉得次長你覺得如何?我謝謝委員講得非常非常清楚。其實意思也就是說,台灣對新住民的這個協助照顧,其實已經有非常多的資源的投入。那他一旦變成國人,其實他又等同享有國人的資格此外,"},{"start":368.476,"end":395.536,"text":"其實我們對於新住民子女因為說他可能母親可能是來自於例如說東南亞所以他對於他的賠利甚至他未來的發展的機會我們還比一般對國人子女的照顧還有他另外發展的新的想像所以其實是多元在照顧的我想今天大家都會有很多的問題我就不佔用時間不過我給市長一個小提醒就好了我知道我們已經做了很多不過我覺得這句話等一下可以不用一直說我覺得我們可以做更多"},{"start":397.322,"end":397.443,"text":"感謝委員"}]}},{"id":"151839","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151839","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6d059fe807980ea8312d28fff7690636534e2527b10508eeec537dad2849ea99e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:46:26 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秘書長有請啊 牛委員好這個秘書長 為什麼今天要提修法案啊這個是徐巧芯委員的組織法修正案對 你覺得為什麼我不知道你有沒有看法律 法條的內容對 但是這個法案我們有意見你也有意見 你不能講你不知道啊我告訴你啊 今天修這個法 法案就是希望監察委員的任命啊 可以正常一點去降低政治的色彩 對不對你同不同意是一回事啊 但你總知道這個概念吧"},{"start":35.277,"end":49.913,"text":"那你不要講你不知道嘛我跟你講今天會談到修法用這種方式就標準要自律不成只好他律理論上來講就是立法權跟監察權應該要分進合集好好來監督政府雖然秘書長你本人對於監察院的存廢"},{"start":50.333,"end":50.913,"text":"監察法第26條修正案"},{"start":75.942,"end":79.885,"text":"監察法26條有更明確的規定比如說他現在沒有規範調查報告那我們希望這個有比較明確的規定這個部分我們希望在這一次先討論這個人權專章以後我們再整理我簡單講一下三個重點"},{"start":99.259,"end":104.745,"text":"1.調查權行使時遵守正當法律程序及符合比例原則2."},{"start":104.745,"end":105.967,"text":"調查報告要有法律位階依據3."},{"start":105.967,"end":107.168,"text":"資訊透明的部分有公共利益者應該要公開1110年你們的全面談話會"},{"start":117.941,"end":135.016,"text":"本來應該來講是監察院自己提嘛去提升自己的職能這方向是很好的可是你們開了全院談話會之後結果突然之間這法案不見了說撤回啊其實秘書長你會還原一下當天為什麼是誰提了說要把這個案子撤掉的這個我那時候還沒有來我不太清楚你那時候還沒有來那你現在有沒有去了解一下當初為什麼"},{"start":135.496,"end":161.925,"text":"你曾經做立委要提這樣的方向後來自己監察院自己把他自廢武功你現在做秘書長我剛說明很清楚我們這一次監察法的修正我們重點擺在人權專章因為我們國家人權委員會成立了三年多我們希望趕快把這個職權行使的部分確立下來那至於監察法其他部分的修正現在也有很多委員有不同的提案我們一併來整合一併來整合那本席還是要求一下你們去了解一下啦"},{"start":162.305,"end":184.584,"text":"當然你現在有現在的節奏這我願意尊重但你以前發生的總要了解一下哪一個監察委員這麼大膽說要撤回這個可以讓監察權行使更完整更有公信力的法案現在大家社會上面對的問題就是大家對監察院也失去信心了對法律也失去信心了這其實是一個很大的社會危機嘛那之所以大家會對監察權失去信心某一些層面當然就是因為部分的監察委員政治辦案嘛"},{"start":184.944,"end":199.451,"text":"比如今天大家去提的這個高永成監委非常誇張嘛段宜康當初講林昌敏這曲棍球案檢察官認為不涉案所以不起訴處分這個監察委員調查該案的時候竟然施壓重新起訴啊對不對"},{"start":200.708,"end":202.329,"text":"委員徐巧芯等17人發言委員徐巧芯"},{"start":223.988,"end":251.761,"text":"這個論文案重創民進黨的選情高永成也對這個余政煌發動政治清算那最近講到侯友宜市長30幾年前的舊案不說阿相關當場的這個指揮有指揮權的人不去約尋只約尋當初只是刑事組組長侯友宜這些反此種種喔都讓大家覺得這監察委員政治辦案的這狀況是很誇張的嘛好我現在要問啦現在處理這樣子政治辦案有射眼鏡這樣子你們的自律機制是什麼"},{"start":252.461,"end":277.886,"text":"你們內部有沒有檢討 有沒有一些機制去講這個東西好像有點有違當初公平的原則你們內部有沒有做過這樣的討論我跟委員報告 監察院獨立行使職權所以如果他是依照程序來 而且這些都走過程序那我們當然不會走自律規範那如果有其他同仁有認為說確實影響到這個部分那我們當然會走自律規範那現在有沒有 這幾件事情新聞都鬧得蠻大的"},{"start":279.546,"end":304.352,"text":"高永誠委員是每個人對他的評價不一樣啊每個人對他的評價不一樣所以有問沒有嘛 沒有沒有 這個並沒有討論嘛對 這個都是依照我們的程序來相關處理的好 這個喔 這個秘書長過去做立法委員的時候曾經也是質詢監察院的秘書長嘛是 有一樣的 只是位子站得不一樣 對不對你曾經質詢啦 我這個原話轉述啦 說如果立法院啦"},{"start":305.332,"end":318.659,"text":"討論完之後,當初針對的是那個王建宣院長那個案子嘛,就是說,如果我們討論,立法院討論完之後,說王建宣嚴重的破壞官僧,要求監察院啟動彈劾,也就是自清的話,會不會處理?欸當初他們回答是什麼?"},{"start":320.305,"end":339.779,"text":"你當初在這裡質詢監察院秘書長那個當初被詢的叫陳鋒義當初你有問過這樣的話對不對那他當初的回答是什麼我不記得了你不記得了那我今天問原話問你啊如果我們今天立法院討論完之後因為高永成這個政治辦案實在太明顯了我們認為他嚴重破壞官僧要求監察院彈劾的時候請問你們怎麼處理"},{"start":341.537,"end":360.604,"text":"監察院的自律規範是我們的自律規範啊,如果監察委員認為他有影響到監察院的觀爭,那當然我們會自己走這一條路啊。我們自律規範裡面就包括提起彈劾啊。阿你剛剛講有沒有啟動自律規範,也是沒有。我告訴你,這個是我們監察院自己的權責啊。自己的權責是啊。"},{"start":361.984,"end":369.668,"text":"為什麼今天為什麼今天會修法就是因為大家已經對監察院已經很多失去信心這樣的修法會造成影響會影響到我們的用人以剛剛這樣這一段時間的答詢來看看起來要法治沒法治嗎我們剛講26條精神並沒有被落實第二個要問責沒問責嗎一個是監察法一個是監察院組織法這個林委員不要搞錯啦"},{"start":383.956,"end":385.418,"text":"監察法跟監察院組織法是完全不一樣的法"},{"start":399.059,"end":415.599,"text":"你還在跟我扯法條重點不是這個嘛我現在跟你講的是你用哪一條法律都沒有關係但是現在的狀況人民對於監察院第一要自律沒自律第二要問責沒問責第三要法制沒法制是很糟糕的事情所以不要把法條搞在一起"},{"start":415.899,"end":415.919,"text":"好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151838","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151838","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6704fd1c1d8eeb4de055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eee0b6a72c3f6e2b4145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"10:47:13 - 10:53:51","影片長度":"00:06:38","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":398,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:53:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:47:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":855,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（10時47分）謝謝主席，我們先請司法院跟法務部的代表。"],["主席：好，請司法院跟法務部代表上臺。"],["謝廳長靜慧：委員好。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝。今天我們要審查有關兒童及少年性剝削防制條例的相關條文，我想不論是兒少遭受到性剝削，或是私密影像在網路上散布，都是不能夠忍受的，也應該積極被遏止。從今天各委員所提供的這36案當中也可以看到，不管是對於拍攝還是散布，無正當的理由持有或購買兒少性影像者，大多希望能夠提高刑罰和罰金來遏止相關的犯罪行為。本席在兩週前司法及法制委員會審查兒虐相關修法時曾質詢過法務部，提到過相關的刑度加重、法官不一定會判重的問題，當時蔡次長回應，不是再加重、不加重的問題，是法官敢不敢下手，不曉得我們今天司法院的代表對於這樣的看法，您的認知是怎麼樣？"],["謝廳長靜慧：報告委員，我想對於每個個案，譬如說今天我們在審兒少性剝削防制條例，方向上是朝加重刑罰，我想最主要目的其實是要防止兒少性剝削，尤其是數位暴力這樣一個性隱私影像的維護，這個方向司法院一直、一直以來都是贊成的，因為司法院也是要去踐行兒童權利公約，防制兒少被剝削，尤其在數位的時代……"],["陳委員俊宇：可是一直沒有看到作為啊！"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，因為司法院其實……尤其是我們在立法院備詢，從司法行政的立場，去讓每個法官認識到兒少性剝削的內涵跟它的重要性，我們每年在法官學院大概都有強化這方面的課程，我們之前也曾經希望能夠去完成妥適量刑法草案，這部分等一下如果有需要的話，可以請朱法官進一步說明。"],["陳委員俊宇：。我們從司法院112年的統計資料來看，我們違反兒少性剝削的案件，地方法院一審的裁判結果當中，我們以最大宗的拍攝、製造性交、猥褻物品罪來看，也就是兒少性剝削條例第三十六條所規範的範圍，在去年的324件裡頭，大概半數都是判一年到兩年以下有期徒刑，以社會大眾在看，會覺得怎麼常常會有輕判的這種情況發生，能判到五年甚至十年的是少之又少，還是說我們兒少性剝削相關的案件實務上不容易重判？我想請教司法院的代表跟法務部的代表，你們的觀察是不是這樣子？"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，剛剛前面也有委員垂詢這個部分，因為每個個案經過檢察官起訴之後，檢察官其實也會就求刑的部分提出一些檢察官的意見，法官會去進行刑法第五十七條這些量刑的各項審酌因子，所以我們才會希望大院能夠儘快針對我們的妥適量刑，譬如六個月以上五年以下，或者是三年以上十年以下，至於個案有沒有妥適量刑，我想目前的臺灣真的是需要一部量刑相關的標準，每一個個案現在大概就由法官依照審判獨立方式去進行妥適的量刑。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。"],["謝廳長靜慧：我們大概會從教育訓練，跟一直提醒對於兒少性剝削造成被害人不可逆或者是怎麼樣傷害的影響，從這個地方去著手，以上。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，法務部代表。"],["汪參事南均：跟委員報告，據我們的觀察，法官的量刑通常就是參考情節輕重，也就是刑法第五十七條所列事項，包含動機、目的、手段，還有犯後態度等等，加上可能是刑責本身法定刑的輕重，還有法官對同樣法定刑的罪責過去是怎麼判的參考，所以可能會有這樣一個參酌，還有包括公共利益的考量，所以這樣一個刑度的判斷應該還是看每個情節跟個案的狀況，以上。"],["陳委員俊宇：那你們兩位會不會覺得，目前以我們臺灣的判例來講，跟國外相比，我們的判例刑責太輕了，會不會？"],["謝廳長靜慧：因為每個個案其實都不太一樣，譬如說行為人跟被害人之間是不是認識，或者譬如像我們的兒少性剝削裡面其實也有家人之間的，所以我覺得每個個案情況是不同的。但是有一點是確定的，就是我們對於兒少權益的保護，我們其實做得真的是不夠，未來希望能夠透過這樣一個修法，讓我們可以對於這類型不管是犯罪情狀，有一個更科學的量刑調查專法，也就是妥適量刑法，希望也能夠早日完成立法，以上。"],["陳委員俊宇：本席還是認為，我們臺灣目前對於兒少性剝削的相關罰則太輕了，還是有提高的必要，但是在修法之後，法官在量刑上是不是能夠跟著提高，我們尊重法官審判的獨立，但也期待修法能夠真正有效嚇阻犯罪，我相信這才是我們大家所期待的目標，以上。"],["謝廳長靜慧：是。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請王正旭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1","speakers":["王育敏","黃捷","蘇清泉","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","陳冠廷","李坤城","許宇甄","沈伯洋","王世堅","陳菁徽","王美惠","王鴻薇","張雅琳","何欣純","范雲","林思銘","林月琴","陳昭姿","廖偉翔","劉建國","黃國昌","林淑芬","陳俊宇","王正旭","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳亭妃","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","李彥秀","蔡易餘","莊瑞雄","楊曜","盧縣一","涂權吉","羅智強","黃仁","沈發惠","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一\n條條文修正草案」案；二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十\n九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案；三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例\n第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案；六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童\n及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之\n一條文草案」案；十一、委員李坤城等 22 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案；十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案；十\n四、委員廖偉翔等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草\n案」案；十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草\n案」案；十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十\n七、委員黃建賓等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草\n案」案；十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修\n正草案」案；十九、委員王世堅等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十、委員陳菁徽等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十\n一、委員王美惠等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二十\n二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員王鴻薇\n等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬\n具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二\n十六、委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委\n員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案；\n二十八、委員劉建國等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n委員柯志恩等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十、委員陳素月\n等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十一、委員范雲等17人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十二、委員林俊憲等21人擬具「兒童及\n少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十三、委員林思銘等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝\n削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十四、委員張雅琳等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條\n例部分條文修正草案」案；三十五、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條\n文修正草案」案；三十六、委員林月琴等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.89346875,"end":21.394718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.27221875,"end":25.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":32.63346875,"end":33.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.12284375,"end":73.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.94346875000001,"end":103.82909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.57159375,"end":112.55346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.77284375,"end":115.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.08034375000001,"end":125.95221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.13784375,"end":133.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.10721875000002,"end":134.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.89596875,"end":163.44846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.28846875000002,"end":161.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.06471875,"end":162.55409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.75659375,"end":185.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.75721875000002,"end":204.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.53471875000002,"end":216.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.26284375,"end":272.89971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.06159375000004,"end":263.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.89971875000003,"end":274.30034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.19471875,"end":278.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.92409375,"end":285.48846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":285.57284375,"end":287.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.42909375,"end":291.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.17534375,"end":312.10034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":312.67409375,"end":317.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.83784375000005,"end":321.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.78221875,"end":328.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":330.32534375,"end":351.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.24721875,"end":344.68596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.57096875,"end":369.96471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.82971875000004,"end":369.94784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.96471875000003,"end":370.20096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.43721875,"end":396.40784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":397.36971875,"end":398.17971875}],"whisperx":[{"start":15.933,"end":25.423,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我們先請司法院跟法務部的代表。好,請司法院跟法務部代表上台。"},{"start":33.217,"end":62.084,"text":"好 謝謝今天我們要審查有關這個兒童及少年性剝削的防制條例的相關條文那我想不論是兒少遭受到性剝削或是私密影像在網路上的散佈都是不能夠忍受的也應該被積極的被嚇死那從今天各委員會所提供的這三十六案當中也可以看到不管是對於拍攝還是散佈無正當的理由持有或購買"},{"start":63.284,"end":69.672,"text":"而少性影像者都大多希望能夠提高刑法和罰金,來嚇阻相關犯罪行為。"},{"start":74.045,"end":103.428,"text":"本席在這個兩週前司法法制委員會審查這個額內相關修法時質詢過我們法務部提到過相關的這個刑度加重法官不一定會判重的問題當時我們蔡次長回應不是再加重不加重的問題是法官敢不敢下手那不曉得我們今天司法院的代表對於這樣的看法您的認知是怎麼樣"},{"start":105.109,"end":125.663,"text":"報告委員我想對於這樣每個個案比如說今天我們在審兒少性剝削防制條例那這個方向上是朝就是加重刑罰那我想最主要目的其實要防制兒少性剝削尤其是數位暴力的這樣一個性隱私影像的維護這個方向司法院一直一直以來都是"},{"start":127.304,"end":152.307,"text":"因為司法院也是要去踐行兒童權利公約防制兒少被剝削,尤其在數位的時期。可是一直沒有看到作為?跟委員報告就是因為司法院其實尤其是我們在立法院備詢,那從司法行政的立場,那去讓每一個法官認識到兒少性剝削它的內涵跟它的重要性。那我們每年在法官學院大概都有強化這方面的課程。"},{"start":152.867,"end":173.643,"text":"那我們之前也有曾經希望能夠去完成這個就是良形的一個妥適良形法草案。那這部分等一下如果有需要的話,可以請主法官可以進一步說明。那我們從司法院這個112年的這個統計資料來看,我們違反兒少性剝削的案件,地方法院一審的裁判結果當中,"},{"start":174.764,"end":194.352,"text":"我們以最大宗的拍攝製造性交猥褻的物品罪來看,也就是《兒少性剝削條例第三十六條》所規範的範圍,在去年的324件裡頭,大概半數都是判一年到兩年以下的有期徒刑。"},{"start":195.572,"end":216.14,"text":"以社會大眾在看,會覺得怎麼常常會有輕判的這種情況發生,能判到五年甚至十年的是少之又少。還是說我們這個兒童性剝削相關的案件實務上不容易重判?我想請教我們司法院的代表跟法務部的代表,你們的觀察是不是這樣子?"},{"start":217.698,"end":242.478,"text":"跟委員報告就是剛剛前面有委員也垂詢到這個部分因為每個個案經過檢察官起訴之後檢察官其實也會這個就求刑的部分也會提出一些檢察官的意見那法官會去進行這些刑法五十七條的這些量刑的各項的審酌的因子那所以我們才會希望能夠大院能夠盡快的針對我們的一個妥適量刑"},{"start":243.058,"end":272.658,"text":"那因為如果說比如6年6個月以上5年以下或者是3年以上10年以下至於這個案個案如果妥適良形我想我們目前的臺灣真的是需要一部這樣的一個良形的一個相關的一些標準那每個個案現在大概就由法官依照審判獨立方式去進行妥適的良形我們大概會從教育訓練跟一直提醒對於兒童性剝削造成被害人的一個不可逆或者是什麼樣的一個傷害的影響從這個地方去著手以上"},{"start":273.559,"end":289.035,"text":"法務部代表根委員報告,據我們的觀察,這個法官的良行,通常就是參考他的情節的輕重,就是刑法57條所列的事項,他的動機、目的、手段,還有他的犯後態度等等。"},{"start":289.588,"end":316.769,"text":"加上可能是這個刑責的他本身的法定刑的輕重還有過去法官對同樣的法定刑的罪責過去是怎麼判的這個一個參考所以可能會有一個這樣的一個參酌還有包括公共利益的考量所以這樣的一個刑度的判斷應該是還是看每個情節跟個案的狀況"},{"start":318.192,"end":328.572,"text":"那你們兩位會不會覺得說我們目前台灣的這個判例來講跟國外來相比我們的判例這個刑責太輕了,會不會?"},{"start":330.756,"end":353.622,"text":"跟委員這個就是提供這樣的,因為每個個案其實都不太一樣,那譬如說行為人跟被害人之間是不是認識,那或者是譬如說像我們的兒少性剝削裡面其實也有家人之間的,那所以我覺得說每個個案情況是不同的,但是有一點是確定的,就是我們對於兒少的這些權益的保護,我們其實是做的真的是不夠。"},{"start":354.222,"end":369.672,"text":"那未來如果希望能夠透過這樣的一個修法那希望我們可以去對於這類型的不管是他的犯罪情況能夠有一個更科學的一個良心調查的一個專法那也就是妥協良心法希望也能夠早日的完成立法以上。"},{"start":370.512,"end":396.321,"text":"好,本席還是認為我們臺灣目前的這個對於兒少性剝削的相關法則太輕了還是有提高的這個必要但是在修法之後法官在量刑上是不是能夠跟著提高我們尊重法官審判的獨立但也期待修法能夠真正有效來嚇阻犯罪我相信這才是我們大家所期待的一個目標好,以上好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151837","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151837","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6f4c0465c6c9bbc1d656dd8af69baafbe34e2527b10508eeef6423ec9f839e5235ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪申翰","委員發言時間":"10:42:52 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主委我們現在看到確實有些部分可能是有違反勞基法的問題我們來看到依據臺北榮總勞工加班管制作業規定的第二項的第二點細節來看這頭影片那我們看到這邊有兩個重點第一個是他的加班補休是以小時來計第二個是在一年內沒有補休完畢的話不另外支給加班費"},{"start":222.466,"end":245.832,"text":"這兩點其實狀況我們看到不是只是北榮經過我們辦公室的調查總共有7個相關的機構都是以小時來計算這個加班費的單位包括北榮新竹分院包括北榮蘇澳分院包括北榮玉里分院還有中榮埔里分院高雄榮總跟雄榮的台南分院跟屏東榮總都是這個狀況"},{"start":248.172,"end":269.105,"text":"這七所都是如果你加班50分鐘的話按照這個規定是當沒發生過喔不可能吧那個報告委員因為就是有過去我們在做檢討現在目前就是說整個在檢討制度方面就已經可以算到分鐘做累計不然我先讓你看現在報告勞動部上面很清楚的規定"},{"start":270.086,"end":296.833,"text":"這剛才那個規定其實已經有違反勞基法的問題勞工部是很清楚說僱主給付勞工工資應計算至分鐘以工作未滿一小時時間能夠換算成小時後來給加班費比方說如果你加班20分鐘的話你可能是要給三分之一小時的加班費所以不是我今天加班50分鐘後面都不算現在我們看到幾個榮譽相關的規定這是違反勞基法的部長你覺得該不該修改"},{"start":298.393,"end":303.111,"text":"假設我們有這個狀況我們去修改我想院長你要講"},{"start":304.922,"end":328.947,"text":"報告委員這個事情我們醫院已經努力在做謝謝你對護理人員的關心我們現在程式是在整個調動大概6月底會完成完成之後測試無餘之後不只護理師我們其他的職類會比較辦理照顧好員工局長因為我現在在講當然不是只是北榮的狀況我剛才說了其實我們調查包括7所相關的榮譽的機構都有相對應的問題"},{"start":332.809,"end":356.078,"text":"這個我需要主委給一個承諾這7所通通都要改沒有問題吧只要有類似狀況的都要改是 包委員我們有調查過而且請他們在於這個最遲今年年底會為什麼到今年年底因為有些涉及到這個是違法欸再來說下個月就要改啦這是違法的事情啊你們的規定違法"},{"start":358.835,"end":364.425,"text":"這不是合法大家談合不合理的問題這是違法違法是我們要讓他到年底嗎"},{"start":365.779,"end":367.681,"text":"部長我要再跟你說剛剛談到下面一個是如果這個一年沒有補修完喔"},{"start":389.436,"end":411.868,"text":"這個補休的就當作這個不予給付這個我們在勞基法裡面看起來也是違法的喔這我也不贊成這也是違法的喔對照理來說如果未休完的時數沒有補休完的時數其實就應該發給加班費這勞基法是規定的很清楚的喔所以部長這些相關的規定我說的不是只是北榮當然我們現在拿很多拿北榮的相關的規定來檢視"},{"start":414.653,"end":433.854,"text":"但是這些我看到大部分都是在榮譽啊因為我們來看比照軍醫局的三種其實確實以三種來看相對應他們都是合於合法合於規定的所以部長你覺得什麼時候我們可以把這些這等於是違法的規定啊是我們政府帶的違法我們這樣好不好我們下去馬上檢討"},{"start":435.627,"end":458.154,"text":"有改進的必要馬上我們就來做一個月內一個月可能太短了那多久三個月我們一定把它做好三個月是不是是的部長主委我相信你可以三個月做但我要要求這些相關的規定剛才講這些加班相關的規定我要要求是退輔會下所有的事業體除了16個榮譽以外"},{"start":462.626,"end":478.586,"text":"這是違法勞基法的問題耶照理來說我們其實相關的事業體有沒有類似的問題都應該一併的檢視啊是吧對的這不是合不合理的問題啊委員您不要擔心我們不能夠讓人家覺得我們是政府或我們政府的相關的事業在帶頭違法啊"},{"start":481.491,"end":504.742,"text":"這條線我是畫在違法不是合不合理是要有更優於法規的待遇不是我們是要求不能違法是可能我們有點行政上的疏忽是並不是故意要去違法我相信不是故意所以您放心我也非常肯定主要像北龍是非常非常優秀的醫院但像這些地方我覺得都讓我們相關的行政管理人員有觸法的疑慮我是很擔心他們"},{"start":505.242,"end":505.402,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":534.314,"end":538.15,"text":"但我會跟他說這是馮主委答應我的我會交代下去沒問題好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151836","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151836","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e62f2be8040fcb7ff7054712d423581dcc34e2527b10508eeee69a6ec2f04dbdd85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳秀寳","委員發言時間":"10:41:07 - 10:52:00","影片長度":"00:10:53","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月29日及5月2日二天一次會））","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":653,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:52:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:41:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":571,"blocks":[["陳委員秀寳：（10時41分）謝謝主席，請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：次長早。其實打擊黃牛票，不管是公部門還是民眾，這是大家的共識，那我們教文委員會的委員，包括本席也都有提文創法修法的版本，在去年的5月三讀通過，到現在將近一年，也是剛好在這個時候來檢視這段時間的成效。根據文化部提供的資料來看，到4月15號截止，對於不正方式取得票券的部分131件，然後加價轉售的檢舉案件有2,105件，在形式要件齊備的件數609件裡面，有300件是已經調查完畢，309件在調查中，但是在300件調查完畢的案件裡面，只有裁罰30件，比例只有10%。次長，這個比例的差異可以說明一下，你看這樣的比例，民眾會不會覺得根本就是雷聲大雨點小，公部門就是說說而已，並不是真的很積極的在處理？"],["王次長時思：應該不是，應該是說因為檢舉進來的案件，很多可能沒有真的發生交易，就是他有這樣的行為，但是並沒有真的發生交易，所以可能查察到後來沒有辦法有裁處的對象等等，或者是有在其他調查裡面發現其實不見得是真的加價，譬如它是小額的，然後是代購的行為，或者是必要的費用等等，我想會有很多的樣態，導致最後真正能夠裁罰的件數比較低。"],["陳委員秀寳：其實這個部分本席的重點並不是在於裁罰的件數要多，好像在拼績效一樣，但是這個部分就是一個態度，我們對於查緝黃牛票的態度。","接下來我再請教一下次長，臉書上很多讓票、換票這樣的社團，本席上去看了一下，這些社團很多貼文都還宣稱是保證有票，所以很多網友的留言很不滿啊！其中也是有討論說為什麼保證有票，你們是怎麼做到保證有票？或者是不是應該可以來檢舉這樣的言論？文化部你們覺得保證有票有沒有黃牛票的疑慮？"],["王次長時思：它有這樣的嫌疑。"],["陳委員秀寳：嫌疑？"],["王次長時思：對，但是如果真的要偵辦，真的還是因為罪刑法定的限制，還是要確認他所觸犯的跟他所主張的是一致的，就是他真的有所謂賣票，而且是高價。"],["陳委員秀寳：次長，當然就是我們覺得他有這樣的嫌疑，但成不成立，或是如何查、怎麼查，這個部分還是有一些技術上的問題。裁罰比例只有10%，造成民眾的疑慮，我剛剛有強調過，其實我沒有硬性規定我們一定要提高裁罰的件數，我是尊重文化部以及地方縣市政府裁量的權限，但是保證有票這樣的言論，我也覺得文化部應該有你們的立場。另外，關於所謂代辦費、手續費，文化部是不是一致的認定，這個有沒有違反文化部的文創法？所以你們的立場、你們的態度是不是明確？我覺得這個非常的要緊。次長，您覺得？"],["王次長時思：代購費用的部分是這樣，因為代購費的前提是它是一個約定行為嘛！就是我跟你約好，你幫我買，所以第一個可能要事前發生才叫做代購，並不能是事後，那個就叫做販售了。至於在販售的部分，如果他說販售的加價金額是必要金額，必要金額指的意思是說，譬如是由第三方收受的，譬如郵寄費用、交通費用，因為要交付，這個費用我們認為是一個合理費用的範圍，但超出這個費用基本上都是算加價。"],["陳委員秀寳：次長，沒關係，有關這個部分，我可以再跟你們討論對這個的認定，或者說在這個地方要怎麼讓民眾不再懷疑文化部是不是真的有打擊黃牛票的決心。在文創法修法過後，即便今天在你們的報告裡面，而且你在答詢中都覺得黃牛票的情況有改善了，但是在想要參與這樣的演出還是需要搶票這些民眾的眼裡，他們覺得黃牛一樣非常猖獗，所以也出現要檢討如何再改革的聲音，近期迴響比較熱烈的就是日本藝人宇多田光的演唱會是採抽票制與實名制雙軌並進的方式讓民眾覺得最支持，本席也稍微看了一下國際間的作法，日本是用抽籤的方式；韓國是統一票價搭配購票、取票到入場三階段的實名制；美國的部分是採動態定價，讓演出者可以隨時調整票價的售票方式。這邊要請教次長，您覺得我們目前業界所採取的主流售票機制有沒有可能變更成日本的抽籤制？或者應該說你本人、你本身支持嗎？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說我們很羨慕，就是我們覺得如果售票平台跟主辦單位願意採取這些方式，其實才會根本的解決黃牛問題，……"],["陳委員秀寳：所以其實您也是支持的？"],["王次長時思：非常支持。"],["陳委員秀寳：如果說我們技術上是可以的話。"],["王次長時思：對，現在臺灣的問題就是目前其實沒有強制性的法源，所以我們都只能用勸導的、輔導的、跟他們洽談的，但是他們要不要採取，因為採取各種的方式會增加不同的成本……"],["陳委員秀寳：本席在這邊為什麼會提到要改變我們主流售票的機制，也是因為新聞報導有竹科工程師分享他自行開發的軟體，他的說法是讓民眾跟黃牛站在同一個起跑點一起來搶票，用魔法對抗魔法，他也說他認為售票業者應該採實名制加抽票制，這樣才能真正的杜絕黃牛。本席並不認同他所謂以魔法對抗魔法這樣的論點，但是他提到了核心問題，他的看法是實名制加抽票制才能真正的杜絕黃牛，這樣的說法是我們應該要去思考跟改變的。這邊再一次請教文化部，如果我們支持臺灣主流的售票模式，可以真的朝著實名制跟抽票制這個制度來走的話，我們有怎樣的規劃可以來輔導或者是跟業者討論？"],["王次長時思：如果真的要改成實名制加抽籤這一類的新制度，如果是強制的話，還是需要一個法源，不然我們就只能用現在的方式，也就是跟售票平台溝通，跟主辦單位溝通，但是最後要不要採取仍然是取決於主辦單位，這是目前的困境。"],["陳委員秀寳：這個部分我也希望你們可以努力跟業者協調與溝通，因為如果真的要讓民眾有一個比較公平的機會來參與這樣的演出，黃牛票的存在真的是會讓大家覺得是不是公部門執法不力，你們就是對這個部分沒有重視。","另外針對數發部的部分，數發部現在不用上台回答，但是我在這邊提出要求，如果現行的售票業者的系統很容易被這樣的程式入侵，表示他們的資安系統就是不夠強固，所以我也希望數發部可以協助這些售票業者來強化他們整個的安全防範。我在這邊提出要求，針對業者的售票系統的強化以及售票模式的轉變，希望文化部、體育署、數發部應該跨部會合作，然後跟業者來協調，能夠有共識，希望共同來推進我國售票模式的轉變以及強化我們的售票系統，所以我要要求文化部、體育署跟數發部提供給本席關於剛才這個建議的可行性的書面說明，我們也要展現打擊黃牛票的決心，好嗎？"],["王次長時思：好的，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝。","主席，再給我一點點時間，我請一下體育署長。"],["主席：好，請署長。"],["鄭署長世忠：委員好。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，我儘快的講，因為我跟主席借的時間喔！4月25號的新聞關於全中運有游泳選手在熱身的時候不慎跳水，然後就直接被禁賽，是嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，有關這個部分，他是在現場被取消資格，至於禁賽的部分是程序不完備，所以我們不會把他禁賽。"],["陳委員秀寳：所以他在那一場的比賽資格被取消了？"],["鄭署長世忠：對。"],["陳委員秀寳：但是以後參加比賽並沒有被禁？"],["鄭署長世忠：沒有。"],["陳委員秀寳：當時教練也反酸說這是臺灣獨創的，一般國外並沒有規定一定要坐姿下水，是嗎？國外有這樣的規定嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，國際的規則是不能在那個場域去做跳水的動作，要求要以腳先入水的方式進行，協會把它擴大解釋成任何形式的跳水都要取消資格。"],["陳委員秀寳：我們看一下比賽應該遵守的事項，規定是「全面禁止任何形式之跳水」，為什麼這樣規定？是因為要避免發生肢體碰撞有意外跟危險，未遵守者依照競賽規程第三十六條來辦理。我們來看一下競賽規程第三十六條，這個規定寫得非常一視同仁，甚至沒有針對違規的情節大小來做不同處分，在比例上你們並沒有區分，就統一是取消比賽資格或者禁賽。當然，這次的處分不可逆，但本席在這邊要說的就是，其實每一位運動選手可以去參加比賽都是經過了無數刻苦練習及訓練之後才取得這個資格，如果動不動就禁賽，其實他的運動生涯可能也就這樣終止了。針對本案，本席要求體育署應該全面檢視競賽規則、規程、章程，應該做出適當的比例調整跟處分的標準，我不去探討今天他違規的本身，但是情節重大與否跟處罰的比例應該有一個適當的標準，您覺得呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分的主要問題出在技術手冊方面，所以這部分我已經請高中體總重新檢視，並且重新改寫，未來應該不會有這樣的問題出現了。"],["陳委員秀寳：好，謝謝署長、謝謝主席。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在先休息5分鐘。","休息（10時52分）","繼續開會（10時57分）"],["主席：好，現在繼續開會。接下來請林宜瑾委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","范雲","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","黃珊珊","黃捷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","邱志偉","張啓楷","羅智強","林倩綺","林楚茵","劉建國"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列\n席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.3472187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.44409375,"end":5.4478437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.02971875,"end":10.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.83096875,"end":11.219093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.235968750000001,"end":11.75909375000000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定說我們一定要提高這個財閥的這個件數我是尊重說文化部這邊以及地方縣市政府的財量的權限但是保證有票這樣的言論呢我也覺得說文化部應該有你們的立場"},{"start":196.67,"end":196.81,"text":"代購費用"},{"start":214.98,"end":243.363,"text":"的前提是他是一個約定行為嘛就是我跟你約好你幫我買所以第一個他可能要事前發生才叫做代購所以並不能是事後的那個就叫做販售了那基於在販售的這個部分如果他販售的加價的金額是說他是必要金額必要金額的指的意思就是說譬如他是由第三方收受的比如說他的郵寄費用他的交通費用因為要交付嘛這個費用我們會被認為說欸他是一個合理的費用範圍但超出這個費用基本上都是算加價的"},{"start":244.364,"end":247.947,"text":"市長沒關係這個部分我可以再跟你們來討論說對這個的認定或者說在這個地方我們怎麼去讓民眾不再去懷疑我們文化部是不是正有打擊黃牛票的決心那在我們在文創法修法過後即便說你們今天在你們報告裡面而且你在答詢中都覺得說黃牛票的這個情況是有改善的"},{"start":265.902,"end":294.716,"text":"但是在民眾他想要參與這樣子的演出他們還是需要搶票的這些民眾的眼裡他們覺得說黃牛是一樣是非常猖獗所以也出現了說我們如何在我們要檢討如何再改革的這樣的聲音那近期迴響比較熱烈的部分就是日本藝人與多田光的演唱會他是採抽票制與行民制雙軌並進的這個方式讓民眾覺得最支持那本席也稍微看了一下國際間的做法日本他是用抽籤的方式那韓國是統一票價搭配那個"},{"start":295.416,"end":296.958,"text":"請教次長,您覺得我們目前業界所採取的主流售票機制有沒有可能變更成日本的抽籤制?"},{"start":315.157,"end":322.16,"text":"跟委員說我們很羨慕啦就是我們覺得如果售票平台跟主辦單位願意採取這些方式其實才會根本的解決黃牛問題所以其實您也是支持的如果說我們技術上是可以的話對就是說現在的台灣的問題就是說現在目前其實沒有強制性的法源所以我們都只能用勸導的然後用輔導的跟他們洽談的但是他們要不要採取因為他採取各種的方式他會增加不同的成本"},{"start":342.867,"end":350.276,"text":"您在這邊為什麼會提到說我們要改變我們主流售票的機制也是因為有新聞上就是這個祖科工程師他自己開發的這個軟體就是讓民眾可以跟他所謂的讓民眾跟黃牛站在同一個跑艇一起來搶票用魔法對抗魔法這樣的說法"},{"start":361.169,"end":361.429,"text":"再次請教文化部．"},{"start":387.79,"end":388.851,"text":"如果說我們支持這個臺灣主流的這個售票模式可以真的朝著實名制跟抽票制這個制度來走的話我們有怎樣的規劃可以來輔導或者說來跟業者討論"},{"start":404.139,"end":423.441,"text":"如果要做這個真的要改成實名自家抽籤這一類的新的制度的話他主要如果是強制的話他還是需要一個法源不然我們就只能用現在的方式就是說跟售票平台溝通跟主辦單位溝通但是最後要不要採取仍然是取決於主辦單位這是目前的一個困境"},{"start":424.362,"end":450.816,"text":"這個部分我也希望說你們可以努力的去跟業者這邊來做協調做溝通因為如果說真的要讓我們的民眾有一個比較公平的機會來參與這樣的演出黃牛票的存在真的是會讓大家覺得說是不是公務部門你們這邊執法不力你們就是對這個部分沒有重視那在這邊我也要因為訴報部你不用回答我但是我請我這邊要要求如果說現行的售票業者"},{"start":451.656,"end":459.978,"text":"他們因為他們的系統很容易被這樣的城市入侵的話表示說他們的治安的這個系統就是不夠強固所以這邊我也希望說我們數法部這邊可以協助這些售票業者來強化他們的整個的安全的防範"},{"start":468.641,"end":473.303,"text":"那在這邊我要要求文化部就是說針對我們業者的售票系統的強化以及售票模式的轉變這部分希望文化部、體育署、數發部你們這邊應該跨部會的合作然後跟業者來協調能夠有共識希望共同來推進我國售票模式的轉變以及強化我們的售票系統"},{"start":490.049,"end":508.643,"text":"那所以我要要求我希望說文化部、體育署跟書發部呢可以提供給本席關於剛才的這個建議可行性空間的這個書面說明喔我們也要展現我們打擊黃牛票的決心好嗎好的 謝謝委員好 謝謝那個主席再給我一點點時間我請一下那個體育署長好 體育署長署長"},{"start":516.292,"end":524.337,"text":"4月25日的新聞關於全中運有游泳選手他在熱身的時候不慎跳水那直接被禁賽是嗎"},{"start":526.38,"end":550.001,"text":"報告委員這部分他是在現場被取消資格但是他的競賽這部分是程序不完備所以我們沒有不會幫他競賽所以那一場的比賽資格他被取消但是事後以後參加的比賽並沒有被禁沒有那當時教練也反甩說這台灣獨創一般國外並沒有規定說一定要坐之下水是嗎國外有這樣的規定嗎"},{"start":551.17,"end":566.804,"text":"報告委員國際的規則是講不能在那個場域去做跳水的動作但是要求要以腳先入水的方式進行那協會這邊他把它擴大解釋成就是任何形式的跳水都把它算是取消資格"},{"start":567.244,"end":589.887,"text":"我們看一下比賽應該遵守的事項他是說全面禁止任何形式的跳水那為什麼這樣規定是因為說避免發生肢體碰撞有意外跟危險那依照競賽規程第36條來辦理那我們看一下你們的競賽規程第36條寫得非常一視同仁甚至沒有針對違規的情節重大於大小來做不同處分這個"},{"start":590.708,"end":597.669,"text":"這次的處分不可逆本席這邊要問的就是說其實每一位運動選手他可以去參加比賽他就是已經經過了無數的刻苦的練習訓練之後才有取得這個資格如果說我們動不動的就是這樣子就是競賽那其實他的運動生涯可能有就這樣子就終止了"},{"start":616.013,"end":635.71,"text":"所以真的本案這邊本席要求體育署我們應該前面的檢視競賽規則規程章程應該做出適當的比例調整跟處分的標準我不去探討說今天他違規的這個本身但是請解重大與否跟處置這個處罰的這個比例應該有一個適當的這個標準"},{"start":640.375,"end":648.891,"text":"法務委員這部分主要問題出在技術手冊方面所以這部分我已經請高中體總重新檢視並且重新的改寫那這邊未來應該不會有再那種問題出現了好謝謝署長謝謝委員好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151835","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151835","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e69e5842bc4b8215bd055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eee9b8b8693ecf6548c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林淑芬","委員發言時間":"10:35:12 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10:47:09","影片長度":"00:11:57","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":717,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:47:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:35:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":819,"blocks":[["林委員淑芬：（10時35分）我已經連續三個禮拜在這裡談到說，徒法不足以自行，這個禮拜日的聯合報也做了幾篇報導，其中有一個案例是甄選上臺大研究所的林和駿，他誘騙了81名的少女自拍裸照等等，但是因為和解等理由，法院針對81件的犯行，各判刑一年兩個月、一年四個月，累計81件受害者，累計超過百年的刑期，最後宣告執行的刑期是六年、六年，所以這個事情就是我們一直在講的多麼地不成比例，不成比例是在這裡。包括當天聯合報的報導也說，一名不雅片遭上網販售的少女說「我的人生怎麼辦，能不能追回影片」，他是在9歲的時候被偷拍上網的性影像，流傳了多年，仍然難以完全下架，他的長期的心理影響、壓力，幾乎崩潰。我們今天在講說，其實司法輕縱加害者，讓受害者再被傷害，這件事情非常嚴重，而我們去年才大修，今天又要來大修，又要來加重，到底是加多重？我們今天要討論幾個面向，是不是請我們法務部，還有警政署？"],["主席：請法務部、警政署的代表上臺。"],["林委員淑芬：主席，法務部一個參事，警政署一個副組長，這種層級也到立法院來？這個真的是一個重視兒少性剝削防制條例修法的層級嗎？參事，我不知道要怎麼問起耶，所以我才說目前專責，我們依照法律，兒少性剝削防制條例第五條規定應該要設專責人員，還要由這個來辦案，請問一下，去年整個違反兒少性剝削條例第三十六條、第三十九條等等的，它的案件增加到2,903件，現在專責人員足夠嗎？而且網路App社群、社團、線上遊戲、手遊這麼多，網路誘拐、誘使拍攝性剝削影像的，重要的問題這麼多，我們如何查緝？有沒有補充人力的需要？人力夠不夠？你知道嗎？警政署的代表。"],["斯副組長儀仙：謝謝委員，報告委員，我們現在專責偵辦的機關，在刑事局是由偵9大隊。"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問你說人力夠不夠啦！我不是問你哪一個單位啦！我們依照法律「且各地方檢察署、警察機關都要指定經專業訓練的專責人員辦理本條例事件」，到底這五年來，不管法務部或警政署，這五年來經過專業訓練的專責人員的人數大概有多少？你告訴我，你們有多少專責人員是訓練過的？"],["斯副組長儀仙：跟委員報告，我們只要是專責單位，甚至我們分局的偵查隊同仁，我們都必須要受過相關專業的訓練……"],["林委員淑芬：我現在問的是專責人員啦！"],["斯副組長儀仙：我們分局都有專責的偵辦人員。"],["林委員淑芬：全國有多少人啦？"],["斯副組長儀仙：我們總共有1,500位，這些都是我們定期會受專業訓練的專責人員。"],["林委員淑芬：專業？我在講專責人力！專責！所以我們今天講說鏡傳媒有一篇報導，他們就指出了臺灣的警政機關卻沒有成立數位性犯罪的專責單位，然後受害者去派出所或警局報案的經驗往往不佳，警員也欠缺專業知識，輕忽案件的嚴重性，而且現在大多數……什麼你們專責人力一千多個，不要再講了！胡扯！各縣市的婦幼隊在辦理的居多啦，是婦幼隊，也不是專責單位啦。"],["斯副組長儀仙：謝謝委員，跟委員報告，其實我們有考慮到被害人的臨近性，會在派出所來受理報案，但是我們的專責人員，包括我們的家防官以及分局的專責刑事人員，都會即時地介入相關的案件。"],["林委員淑芬：專責還是兼職、兼辦？專責還是兼辦？你們有編制專責的嗎？不要在這裡硬拗了！警政署必須要整合婦幼及科技人才，要成立專責單位，我們現在已經講要成立專責單位了，所以在這裡我們是不是請這個……不是只有專責單位，我們請衛福部，我們也希望這個應該依據……，暨南大學家暴研究中心主任王珮玲指出，警政署也必須整合婦幼及科技專才，成立專責單位，而且要設置數位性暴力案件的全國資料庫。部長，全國資料庫，因為他認為性暴力、偷拍影像犯罪者，不會只有拍一、兩部啦，多名受害者卻沒有被調查，很多的犯罪手法包括有沒有對價、給錢的模式，去談一下都會發現其實背後都是一個集團在製作，所以他們犯罪的手法因為人都有慣性，用熟了以後，同樣的手法會一直用，集中描繪就能知道是同一批人在做，所以要成立全國資料庫，你覺得呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果這個資料庫指的是對於這些有前科的犯罪手法等等這樣子內容的蒐集，我覺得這個有必要，但是如果指的是性影像的資料庫，這個恐怕要……"],["林委員淑芬：不是啦！這些數位性暴力案件的全國資料庫，找出背後的集團，還有他們的模式化，還有是不是同一批人不斷地累犯然後再犯。我再問一個問題，我們這幾年大家講的創意私房以外，有沒有其他性犯罪產業的網站被破獲？因為都是慣性嘛！這個模式也會是類似的。"],["斯副組長儀仙：依照警政署的統計，確實有其他相關的網站被查獲。"],["林委員淑芬：我在講性犯罪產業網站拍攝兒少影像的組織還有沒有？"],["斯副組長儀仙：報告，有。"],["林委員淑芬：大概有多少？"],["斯副組長儀仙：比如說觸感空間，其實也是我們在同一時間……"],["林委員淑芬：對啦！我是說多少件？因為非常嚴重，你們到底是抓到過幾個？好，沒關係，到時候再問。我們再承上一題，請問部長，衛福部有沒有統計違反兒少性剝削條例再犯率有多高？即加害人的再犯率。"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分是沒有去做統計，我們只知道當期有多少案件。"],["林委員淑芬：我為什麼要問這個？因為我們第五十一條裡面規定，緩起訴的或者是被判有罪的都要受輔導教育，但輔導教育到底有沒有用？大家覺得緩起訴的話，他至少要受輔導教育，可是輔導教育到底有沒有用？他的再犯率多少？檢、審、警政還有衛福部有沒有統計？你們沒有，那其他單位針對再犯率有沒有統計？"],["汪參事南均：報告委員，目前我們是沒有這樣的統計資料。"],["林委員淑芬：沒有？"],["汪參事南均：是。"],["林委員淑芬：好，你們統統都沒有。我為什麼講這個呢？法務部經常用緩起訴、不起訴的處分去縱放，然後司法院動輒就以刑法第五十九條裡面的減輕其刑，常常裁判的理由就是說他初犯、其情可憫，但是你們沒有統計這個再犯率。換言之，第一個，檢察部門他是緩起訴，但是他的輔導教育有沒有效？不知道，再犯率多高？不知道，然後就這樣繼續的輕放，有罪的也要上課，但上課有用嗎？也是沒有用啊！所以我們在這裡說主管機關應該要進一步去檢視緩起訴、減輕其刑到底有沒有道理。老實說，我們是覺得沒有道理啦！主席，請允許我2分鐘，我做一個事情……"],["主席：1分鐘。"],["林委員淑芬：好。我現在講說我們從社工的視角，就是去年的青少年犯罪防治研究期刊有一篇以社工人員當視角，去討論兒少性剝削私密影像案件的需求評估和處遇困境的研究，他們發現流程上，在處理整個案件的通報，還有受理以及整個司法程序的過程裡面，流程上應該減少受創的風險，以關注兒少身心和隱私。因為網路的特性，他的私密影片其實是沒有辦法澈底根除，很容易讓兒少陷入循環式的創傷當中，所以他們訪問了7個社工員，有2個社工指出，在第一線介入處遇服務的經驗裡面，製作筆錄過程當中的指認，讓兒少在社工人員、警方人員，甚至在自己父母的面前去承認私密影像就是其本人，恐怕會讓兒少在製作筆錄當下感到惴惴不安，而且對兒少來講，可能會加深其對事件更為嚴重創傷的風險。所以這一篇的作者他提示說，指認私密影像的流程應該要更細緻、要調整、要重視兒少的身心，以尊重兒少的隱私為出發。","更何況我們不要忘了，黃子佼當時緩起訴，竟然還把避免兒少心理再受創傷當成包庇加害者的理由，這個也都是很荒謬的事情，雖然是當成包庇加害者的理由，不過不要讓這個受害者心理再創傷這件事情真的是值得注意。所以今天列席的各個單位，不論是主責社工的衛福部，或者是警巡階段製作筆錄的警政署，或者是法務部、司法院，都應該跨部會去檢討，針對處遇流程都應該再做更細緻的調整。"],["主席：謝謝，時間已經到了。"],["林委員淑芬：你知道這個是他們一輩子的傷，恐怕也是難以回復的，一生都要留下陰影。"],["主席：我們進入逐條可以再繼續討論，謝謝林委員。"],["林委員淑芬：好，希望下一次我們進入逐條的時候，你要給我看再犯率，我們要看再犯率，就知道這種輔導教育沒用，乾脆重判，而且徒法不足以自行，檢、審、警的專業還有檢審的態度很重要啦！"],["主席：謝謝林委員。","接下來我們請陳俊宇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1","speakers":["王育敏","黃捷","蘇清泉","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","陳冠廷","李坤城","許宇甄","沈伯洋","王世堅","陳菁徽","王美惠","王鴻薇","張雅琳","何欣純","范雲","林思銘","林月琴","陳昭姿","廖偉翔","劉建國","黃國昌","林淑芬","陳俊宇","王正旭","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳亭妃","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","李彥秀","蔡易餘","莊瑞雄","楊曜","盧縣一","涂權吉","羅智強","黃仁","沈發惠","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一\n條條文修正草案」案；二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十\n九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案；三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例\n第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案；六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童\n及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之\n一條文草案」案；十一、委員李坤城等 22 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案；十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案；十\n四、委員廖偉翔等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草\n案」案；十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草\n案」案；十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十\n七、委員黃建賓等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草\n案」案；十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修\n正草案」案；十九、委員王世堅等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十、委員陳菁徽等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十\n一、委員王美惠等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二十\n二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員王鴻薇\n等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬\n具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二\n十六、委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委\n員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案；\n二十八、委員劉建國等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n委員柯志恩等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十、委員陳素月\n等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十一、委員范雲等17人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十二、委員林俊憲等21人擬具「兒童及\n少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十三、委員林思銘等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝\n削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十四、委員張雅琳等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條\n例部分條文修正草案」案；三十五、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條\n文修正草案」案；三十六、委員林月琴等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.02971875,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.71721875,"end":94.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.00034375,"end":34.017218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.017218750000005,"end":34.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.08471875,"end":34.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.08784375,"end":97.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.16721875,"end":114.24096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.73034375,"end":115.75971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":116.99159375,"end":118.57784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.91534375,"end":121.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.10909375000001,"end":133.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.93409375000002,"end":136.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.46534375000002,"end":161.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":161.94659375,"end":162.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.14034375,"end":164.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.05159375000002,"end":166.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.08471875,"end":176.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.77971875,"end":176.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":176.81346875,"end":180.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.38221875000002,"end":190.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":192.81096875,"end":199.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":199.25721875000002,"end":200.26971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":200.75909375,"end":204.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":200.80971875,"end":201.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.52221875,"end":213.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":211.66034375,"end":214.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.99721875,"end":218.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":218.64659375000002,"end":220.26659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":218.66346875000002,"end":220.09784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.11034375000003,"end":227.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.99971875000003,"end":229.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.35409375,"end":228.26534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":229.96971875000003,"end":231.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":232.19721875000002,"end":264.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":266.50409375000004,"end":284.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.02034375,"end":286.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.37034375,"end":285.45471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":288.28971875,"end":290.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.19221875,"end":306.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":307.64534375,"end":326.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":326.46096875,"end":328.55346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":328.90784375000004,"end":330.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":331.81034375,"end":363.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":364.00784375,"end":364.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":364.73346875000004,"end":373.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.86284375,"end":380.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":380.35971875,"end":382.06409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.67159375,"end":394.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":395.83409375,"end":403.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":405.11534375,"end":405.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.16596875000005,"end":405.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.48659375000005,"end":405.55409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":405.95909375,"end":406.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":408.86159375000005,"end":415.18971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":416.32034375,"end":422.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":422.14221875000004,"end":428.08221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":429.29721875,"end":429.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":430.15784375000004,"end":431.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.09846875000005,"end":436.09784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":435.79409375,"end":437.12721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":439.16909375,"end":441.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":441.3122187500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我在講專責人力專責"},{"start":232.273,"end":256.858,"text":"所以我們今天講說進傳媒有一篇報導他們就指出了台灣的警政機關卻沒有成立數位性犯罪的專責單位然後受害者去派出所或警局報案的經驗往往不佳警員也欠缺專業的知識輕忽案件的嚴重性而且現在大多數什麼你們專責人力一千多個不要再講了胡扯"},{"start":257.398,"end":284.364,"text":"各縣市的婦幼隊在辦理的居多啦,婦幼隊,也不是專責單位啦。謝謝委員。跟委員報告就是說,其實我們有考慮到被害人的臨近性,會在派出所來受理報案,但是我們的專責人員,包括我們的家防官以及分局的專責刑事人員,都會及時的介入相關的案件。專責還兼職,兼辦。"},{"start":289.046,"end":304.362,"text":"專責還是兼辦?你們有編制專責的嗎?不要在這裡硬拗了。警政署必須要整合附幼及科技人才,要成立專責單位。我們現在已經講到要成立專責單位了。所以在這裡我們是不是在請這個"},{"start":307.674,"end":329.322,"text":"而不是只有專責單位,我們請衛福部,我們也希望這個應該依據濟南大學家暴研究中心主任王佩玲指出,警政署也必須整合附幼及科技專才,成立專責單位,而且要設置數位性暴力案件的全國資料庫,全國資料庫,保定,全國資料庫,"},{"start":331.837,"end":360.598,"text":"因為他認為就是說性暴力偷拍影像犯罪者不會只有拍一兩部啦。報犯罪的手法多名受害者卻沒有被調查。很多的犯罪手法包括這個有沒有對價給錢的模式。其實一談一下都會發現說其實背後都是一個集團在製作。所以他們犯罪的手法然後人都有慣性。所以用手的同樣的手法會一直用。所以集中描繪就能知道是同一批人在做。"},{"start":361.198,"end":381.247,"text":"所以要成立全國資料庫,你覺得呢?如果說這個資料庫指的是對於這些有前科的犯罪的手法等等這樣子的內容的蒐集,我覺得這有必要。但是如果指的是現影像的資料庫,這恐怕...不是啦,這些...這些..."},{"start":383.248,"end":402.812,"text":"數位性暴力案件的全國資料庫找出背後的集團還有他們的模式化還有是不是同一批人不斷地在累犯然後再犯這樣子所以我再問一個就是說我們這幾年大家講創意私訪以外有沒有其他性犯罪產業的網站被破獲?好來檢警"},{"start":409.668,"end":436.858,"text":"因為都是慣性嘛,這個模式也會是類似的。依照警政署的統計,我們確實有其他相關的網站被查獲。我在講性犯罪產業網站拍攝兒少影像的組織還有沒有?報告有。啊,多少?大概有多少?比如說像觸感空間,其實也是我們在同一時間。對啦,我說多少件?"},{"start":439.192,"end":458.01,"text":"因為非常嚴重,你們到底是抓到過幾個?好,沒關係,到時候再問。來,我們再呈上一題,這個衛福部,請問部長,衛福部有沒有統計違反兒童性剝削條例,這個再犯率有多高?再犯率?"},{"start":460.85,"end":480.248,"text":"加害人的再犯率?這個部分是沒有去做統計的,我們只知道說當期有多少的案件這樣子。那我是不是要問這個,因為我們第五十一條裡面講說,這個還起訴的啦,或者是被判有罪的,其實都要受這個輔導教育,知道嗎?但輔導教育到底有沒有用啊?"},{"start":480.788,"end":481.908,"text":"報告委員目前我們是沒有這樣的一個統計資料沒有"},{"start":505.168,"end":510.691,"text":"好,你們通通都沒有。我們為什麼講這個呢?法務部經常用還起訴、不起訴的處分率去縱放,然後司法院動輒就以刑法第五十九條裏面減輕其刑。那常常裁判的理由就是說他出犯、其刑可免,但是你們沒有統計這個再犯率,"},{"start":526.741,"end":547.243,"text":"換言之,這個檢查部門他是緩起訴,但是他的輔導教育有沒有效,不知道。再犯率多高,不知道。然後就這樣繼續的輕放。然後這個有罪的也要上課,那上課有用嗎?也是沒有用啊。所以我們在這裡說,主管器官應該要進一步去檢視。"},{"start":548.824,"end":576.467,"text":"緩起訴、減輕期刑到底有沒有道理啊?老師說我們是覺得沒有道理啦所以主席允許我這個兩分鐘我做一個事情我現在講說我們從社工的視角就是去年的青少年犯罪防制研究期有一篇以社工人員當視角去討論就是說兒少性剝削私密影像案件的需求評估和處理困境的研究然後他們發現說流程上"},{"start":578.228,"end":605.493,"text":"在處理這個整個案件的通報還有這個受理還有這整個司法程序的過程裡面流程上應該減少受創的風險以關注兒少身心和隱私因為網路特性他的私密影片其實沒有辦法徹底根除很容易讓兒少陷入循環式的創傷當中所以他們訪問了七個社工員然後有兩個社工指出在第一線介入處遇服務的經驗裡面筆錄過程當中的指認"},{"start":608.695,"end":616.627,"text":"而讓兒少在社工人員、警方人員甚至在父母自己父母的面前卻去承認說是命一項就是我本人恐怕會讓兒少在製作筆錄當下感到甩甩不安而且對兒少來講可能會"},{"start":624.338,"end":627.34,"text":"此事為加深其對事件更為嚴重的創傷風險。此事為加深其對事件更為嚴重的創傷風險。此事為加深其對事件更為嚴重的創傷風險。此事為加深其對事件更為嚴重的創傷風險。"},{"start":647.31,"end":651.176,"text":"而避免這個兒少心理在受創傷當成包庇加害者的理由這個也都是很荒謬的事情但是雖然是當成包庇加害者的理由不過不要讓這個受害者心理在創傷"},{"start":664.774,"end":685.094,"text":"這件事情真的是值得注意。所以我們在今天列寫的各個單位,不論是主責社工的衛福部,或者是警巡階段的製作筆錄的警政署,或者是法務部司法院,都應該跨部會去檢討,針對處遇流程都應該再更細緻的調整。你知道就是說這個是他們"},{"start":687.516,"end":709.786,"text":"當然一輩子的傷,恐怕也是難以回復的一生都要留下這個陰影的。好,我們進主條可以再繼續討論,謝謝林委員。那我們希望說,下一次我們主條的時候,你要給我看債範率,我們要看債範率,就知道政府導教育不好,過去重判,重判,而且土法不足以自省,檢審的專業,還有檢審的態度很重要。好,我們謝謝林委員。"}]}},{"id":"151834","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151834","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6804a61e653e21f0812d28fff7690636534e2527b10508eeebe1ab5d36ae375a25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:39:26 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主席我想有請我們秘書長黃委員早秘書長你好你好今天我第一次來跟司法委員會這邊想要請教一下秘書長我記得秘書長是我們立法院的前輩這人在嘉義嘛 在做委員選是 嘉義市這人秘書長在做委員選對我們高三年有很多不一樣的見解"},{"start":36.146,"end":58.605,"text":"指詢很好的養分有些理念跟想法我想可以拿來這邊跟我們的秘書長來就教一下一個簡單的問題先請教我們秘書長先請問我們監委高永辰 林玉榮為了調查三五年前市台會總幹事羅毅市回台遭到強制驅離這個案件就上週我們約談了新北市長侯佑儀到場說明"},{"start":60.246,"end":76.916,"text":"原來我們的黃建賓一定是我們陳檢察院長有出來回應說審查院本來就是憲法規定的憲政機關對於各政府機關的案件都有調查的責任跟義務甚至行政院有很多案件接受監察院的調查"},{"start":78.263,"end":78.523,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":91.094,"end":112.149,"text":"黃委員報告一下,這件事我們有做過了解,就是說有人檢舉侯友宇登堂時,一些以前的警察有動手做非法的動作,所以他們做了解,監察委員怎麼調查案件,我沒有任何的評論是的,本席要請教秘書長的是他的說法"},{"start":112.99,"end":128.41,"text":"我當然相信我們一定說的那一部分是對的,包括說監察院本來就是依照憲法規定的憲政機關對於各個機關都有調查的爭議,這是確實的沒有不對但是院長不應該來代表監察院發言吧,他又不是監察院的發言人"},{"start":129.361,"end":155.248,"text":"一個行政機關 行政院 人家問行政院院長嘛 行政院院長說監察院獨立行使職權啊是啦 秘書長 我是覺得說 行政機關 敢不敢參與 應該 不能代表敢參與來回答就這樣子的情況齁 我覺得這樣人民不會相信 這樣他的發言人是誰啦是 所以我要請教秘書長的意思是這樣嘛好 電話 我想人民不相信司法不是第一天的事情那 人民會相信監察院嗎"},{"start":156.704,"end":177.566,"text":"人民也有很多不相信立法院的是的 本市認為有很多優秀的進展我相信其實監察委員很優秀也很認真地監察我們這個監督我們這個政府那這個無庸置疑啦 不過有時候真的遇到政治事件會監察委員好像真的瓦解變成一個人一樣 我想會做出一些意想不到的事情"},{"start":179.864,"end":205.916,"text":"那至於這個部分我想身為最大幕僚長我是要請教我們民進黨監察提名的這個監察院在第5屆第6屆的數據來看人民書狀案件的變動分析第5屆是每個月平均一千一百到七件第6屆是一千兩百二十七件相較第4屆的一千八百五十八件數字在減少那這個電話報告平均每個月"},{"start":206.496,"end":206.656,"text":"黃建賓,謝謝你的說明"},{"start":234.9,"end":235.701,"text":"比上個月增加了2799件"},{"start":247.645,"end":267.959,"text":"太原監獄爆發的重大弊案這件事情,安行爆起永和區歡樂聯盟KTV槍擊殺人案件的吳哲敏遭到判無期徒刑,入獄服刑15年之後,陸續的申請在第7次的時候,他7次假釋都被駁回,2021年的時候竟然有爆發篡改這個假釋的分數讓他獲得出獄。"},{"start":269.6,"end":284.969,"text":"這個不是單一的案件,當然不管是不是這個案,監察院這一系列的作為都會讓人民懷疑,包括我們城中宴的性招待案,檢方以這個查無不罰,貪污罪惡不足,所以這個事情不代表公院可以接受性招待案。"},{"start":285.629,"end":288.812,"text":"陳宗彥案在我們是彈劾案沒有過,沒有過的理由就是欠缺證據能力,還有一些台南地檢署,台南地檢署沒有起手牽結,牽結這個案子我們另外有委員在調查中。"},{"start":307.773,"end":308.173,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":327.534,"end":330.318,"text":"我們都是憲政機關共同努力來認同人民對我們各個憲政機關有信心這個是重點"},{"start":343.955,"end":359.504,"text":"謝謝秘書長的說明那本席利用最後的時間我想一下我們現在很懷念當時的李俊祐委員你當時在做委員選你說監察院沒有存在的必要性如果臨時會沒有辦法來修憲那至少將考監兩院來封存"},{"start":361.568,"end":388.025,"text":"沒有辦法封存這個四字第632號有寫是的秘書長我們只是希望秘書長能夠秉持當時我跟當時的意見一樣啊修憲是立法院的權限啊立法院修憲廢除我們就立刻廢除啊相信秘書長先把四字第632號解的非常詳細啊不能因為單一不行使職權然後讓這個憲政機關停止運作啊"},{"start":388.645,"end":397.051,"text":"謝謝秘書長這麼詳細的聰明我們還是要希望秘書長記得當時那一塊以這條土地正義及公平的努力的委員以及委員謝謝委員 謝謝秘書長感謝秘書長你今天的答詢感謝你 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151833","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151833","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e669711e9fdb38f250656dd8af69baafbe34e2527b10508eee1fefedc7491e725d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:31:34 - 10:42:20","影片長度":"00:10:46","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告「退輔會服務照顧及相關救補助精進作為」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-15"},"duration":646,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:42:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:31:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":340,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時31分）你好，我們請主委。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：請馮主委。"],["馮主任委員世寬：委員早安。"],["陳委員冠廷：主委早安。主委，很多人都說退輔會相關的事業都是以欣字輩的為主，包含天然氣、瓦斯等等，以前比較多人說是比較偏向特許的產業，我今天想要請教一下，退伍軍人，我們以前都會說老榮民，現在其實青壯榮民更多，至少在我們的服務處、在嘉義的服務處，基本上百分之四十五是榮民，都是三十幾歲左右到四十多歲，這些退役下來的軍官、士官去尋找工作的時候，我想他們應該很少有機會能夠進入我們剛才提到的欣字輩的這些公司，媒體都有報導，欣字輩不管是水泥、天然氣、石油等等這些公司都是以將官作為比較高比例的部分，我這樣的理解是正確的嗎？"],["馮主任委員世寬：是的，正確，我們現在也是這麼做。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，我想請教，過去不管是陸、海、空這些很優秀的軍人，特別是曾經出國留學回國的，然後完成他們的服役期間，在他們離開之後，就您所瞭解大概有多少比例進入國防產業？不管是創新產業或者是新創產業，跟國防相關的，不知道有沒有這樣的比例？"],["馮主任委員世寬：這樣的比例在中科院以及漢翔都有的，但是假如說您是運用美軍的資料，我們這個就比他們差多了，他是軍工工業跟國防跟國家政策相結合的，我們不一樣，漢翔是一個老百姓的公司，今天我們要請他做一件維修、研發的事情，都要經過中科院、國防部三方面來會合，因此要用軍中剛退伍的人的專長等等，都有重新訓練的必要。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝主委，我講這件事情的原因是因為我們知道最近不管是在多個國外媒體都有提到，還有一些期刊雜誌，包含Political都有談到希望我們未來能夠有更多的軍事資產在臺灣生產，這些生產的過程當然由國防部主導也好，可是有些並不是只有武器，包含這些新創的、重要的零組件也好，或者是一些系統如軍民共用的系統也好。","我會覺得比較可惜的是，其實有很多優秀的，特別是海軍，也訓練了很多人出國，我在這幾個月正式進入國防外交委員會，我也開始跟這些退役軍官討論，特別是在40到60歲之間的，他們有提到一個觀點，他們希望假設哪一天退輔會或者說我們國軍退下來的這些士官、軍官，他們在民間的企業不需要由退輔會主導進去這些欣字輩的，而是能夠進入一般的民間產業，不管是在新科技、電腦創新，這樣子我們退輔會的工程就能夠說是一個非常成功的走法，不知道主委你對這樣子的看法是怎麼樣？"],["馮主任委員世寬：報告委員，我們的就學就業處就是在做這個工作，而且我們的榮服處是我們的觸點，對於外面的觸點，跟外面的公司都有接觸，而且他們都有績效報回來，介紹了我們很多退役的官兵去就業，可能我講不出來有百分之五十，但是我講得出來有百分之二十五以上。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝主委，我希望未來統計的相關資料也能夠放在相關的報告裡面。"],["馮主任委員世寬：好的。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們就可以知道我們的基準點在哪邊，有沒有逐年往上提升，我還是希望未來……其實很多將官你說他的年資很高，但其實以現在臺灣人民的健康水平，他們能夠付出的還是可以很多，像主委也80了嘛？"],["馮主任委員世寬：80歲。"],["陳委員冠廷：還是持續的在崗位上，我想很多退役的國防軍官，特別是美國的，我看他們不管是退役的將領其實都還是很活躍的，不管是在智庫上面、不管是在軍工產業方面，或者就只是在NGO單純的為他們軍民發聲，或者是在重要的期刊來去發聲，我想這些都是我們可以努力的方向。我希望大家不要認為已經退休的將領完全沒有他的實際效益，或者只是去這些欣字輩的地方，我認為他們是有很多能夠發揮的，我剛剛講的是將領，包含校級軍官也好，包含士官、軍官也好，不要讓他們一出來的選項相對較少，我認為可以試著去開拓他的可能性，比方說我們的辦事處除了服務民眾之外，我們也會定期向他們諮詢一些國防相關的看法，請他們給我們看法，有些是過去跟情報相關的，後來退休也到我們這邊來，我覺得都很好，我們就可以得到更多的資訊。","其實今天助理們有給我們退輔會相關單位的安置情形，裡面就有持股率跟安置率，比方說欣欣水泥、遠榮氣體公司的持股率是40%，安置率是50%，有些持股率39%，安置率是31%，本來我們是想說持股率應該要跟安置率一樣高，最好是越高越好，這樣安置的更多，可是後來想一想那不見得是正確的，不見得只想著要怎麼安置，或許他們有很多潛力，我們還沒有去探索到，是我們可以去努力的方向。"],["馮主任委員世寬：是的。"],["陳委員冠廷：再來，剛才主委有提到AI科技、智能相關的，希望未來能夠多來照顧、照養這些榮民朋友，除了這個部分，我還是想要再強調國防創新管道（pipeline），美國在近四、五年有不斷地提到這個部分，意思就是說在國防創新當中，退伍軍官他們退役進入這些科技產業，他們能夠扮演的角色其實是很大的，因為大家都知道我們現在面臨的挑戰也不是只有軍購，買自己的軍備而已，國防不是就是陸、海、空而已，還有金融戰、科技戰、法律戰，其實國防部還有包含專精法律的這些軍事、軍方，跟一般民間的律師又不同，因為他們不知道這裡面的……"],["馮主任委員世寬：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以未來如果這些小型創新的產業……剛才幾位委員都有提到你們有出國、去美國交流，我們說實質內容是什麼？我們不問這麼空泛的問題，我們甚至可以說，這一些過去退役的軍官、這些在美國退役的軍官、將領他們現在在做什麼？我們這些退役將領現在能做什麼？那這些產業是不是能夠連結在一起？我們是不是能夠把我們的產業鏈打入美國的市場？這些都是可以的。主委要說什麼？"],["馮主任委員世寬：沒有要說什麼。"],["陳委員冠廷：那我繼續。"],["馮主任委員世寬：我覺得您講的方向都是正確的。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝主委。比方說以臺中地區來講，其實有很多精密機械產業，這些產業他們做得很好，他們甚至跨入一些航太的市場，比方說嘉義有一些產業是直接進入特斯拉的產業，可是這些產業其實跟軍事上是有相關的，這一些我們剛才講到將官也好，你們曾經有派駐到國外去的，他們可以當這些純民營企業公司很好的顧問，他們就不必在欣字輩，他們也不必被立法委員們質詢說是肥貓什麼的，不必啊！因為他們有能力。"],["馮主任委員世寬：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：過去不管是國防部送出去，海軍、陸軍這些官校的，我看到有些還進入到最好的，甚至去哈佛大學拿到電腦碩士的都有，過去當然更不用說什麼西點軍校這些都是很好的軍人，在進入體制之後，有些可能適應、有些可能不適應，那些不適應的真的退休之後，或者是退伍或者是根本就不想要進入國防產業，但是他們過去還是由國家栽培，至少他們可以在商業部分來替國家的經濟做一分努力。今天大概是想要請教主委，未來這個方向不知道可不可以納入國防創新產業，跟國防工業相關的會納入你們的統計標準裡面及績效的指標嗎？"],["馮主任委員世寬：報告委員，這幾年在你提醒我們的這些事項中間，我們已經有很大的進步，譬如說國機國造、國艦國造，造就了很多我們軍方的人才能夠進去幫忙，再加上我們有了國防供應鏈、供應商，這些都是跟國防有關的。"],["陳委員冠廷：主委，我完全同意，我現在講的不是……"],["馮主任委員世寬：對，完全同意。"],["陳委員冠廷：我說的不是幹大事，我現在是說幹小事……"],["馮主任委員世寬：這個小事是最重要的。"],["陳委員冠廷：就是你們在產業鏈裡的中小企業裡面的小事，跟這些中小型的投資，這些校級軍官剛退役的，怎麼樣輔導他們可以進入這項產業鏈裡面？怎麼樣可以讓他們不只是在臺灣的產業，甚至可以到美國的產業鏈裡面？我覺得這是一個我們可以努力的方向，所以這個還是希望能夠借助，因為這個東西就不是只有退輔會而已，這可能跟國防部都有一些關聯，還是希望主委有機會的話，未來不管你接下來在哪裡，有機會參加研討會，或者以後真的退休之後可以作為一個退役的將軍，其實你講的話、投稿的文書都對國家是有很大的幫助……"],["馮主任委員世寬：好的，是。"],["陳委員冠廷：特別是在產業鏈的部分，還是希望能夠有機會看到主委在這部分盡一分力。"],["馮主任委員世寬：很難得見到有委員這麼關心國防事務跟我們退伍人員的未來發展，謝謝你。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝你，因為我們辦事處好像已經變成退輔會了，四十幾位都是憲兵的，謝謝主委。"],["馮主任委員世寬：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請洪申翰委員上臺質詢。不好意思，我先宣告一下，目前收到臨時提案一案，待會徐巧芯委員質詢完畢後休息10分鐘，休息過後處理臨時提案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-15","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","洪申翰","徐巧芯","邱志偉","林憶君","賴士葆","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告「退輔會服務照顧及相關救補助精進作\n為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133501_00015"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.00971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.26284375,"end":2.3597187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.31221875,"end":10.071593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.425968750000003,"end":11.337218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.35409375,"end":11.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.387843750000002,"end":31.266593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.43534375,"end":43.517843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.0915937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4.402,"text":"這個在美國的近四五年不斷的有在提到這個部分那意思就是說在國防創新的這個部分當中退伍的軍官他們一退役之後進入這些科技產業他們能夠扮演的角色其實是很大的因為大家知道我們現在面臨的挑戰也不是只有只有軍購買自己軍備而已不是國防就是入海空而已金融戰科技戰法律戰那其實國防部還要包含這個法律專精的這些"},{"start":425.622,"end":448.691,"text":"軍事軍方那跟一般民間的律師又不同嘛因為他不知道這裡面的提那所以說未來如果說這些小型創新的產業剛才提到剛才幾位委員都有提到你們有出出國嗎去美國來交友我們說實質內容是什麼我們不問這麼空泛的問題我們甚至可以說這一些過去退役的軍官這些將領在美國的退役的軍官將領他們現在在做什麼"},{"start":449.551,"end":458.174,"text":"我們這些退換交易我們現在能做什麼那這些產業是不是能夠連結在一起我們是不是能夠把我們的產業鏈打入美國的市場這些都是可以的"},{"start":459.726,"end":481.811,"text":"主委要說什麼?沒有說什麼。我覺得您講的方向都是正確的。謝謝主委。以台中地區來講,其實有很多機密機械產業,這些產業他們做得很好,他們甚至跨入一些航太的市場。比如說嘉義有一些產業是直接進入特斯拉的產業,可是這些產業其實跟軍事相關是有相關的。"},{"start":482.791,"end":503.903,"text":"那這一些我們剛才講到將官也好你們曾經有派駐到國外去的他們可以作為這些民營純民營企業很好的公司顧問他們就不必再心自備他們也不必說就會被立法委員們諮詢說你們是什麼肥貓嗎什麼的不必啊因為他們有能力啊那這些過去我看不管是我們"},{"start":505.384,"end":520.549,"text":"國防部送出去海軍陸軍這些官校的我看到有些還進入到最好的甚至去哈佛大學拿到電腦做事的都有那過去當然就不用什麼西點軍像這些都是很好的這些軍人那進入體制之後有些可能是有些可能不是我們不管"},{"start":521.8,"end":525.141,"text":"今天大概是想要請教這個主委未來這個方向不知道可不可以納入國防創新產業這些跟這些國防工業相關的可以納入你們的這個統計標準裡面還有一個績效的指標"},{"start":550.749,"end":566.54,"text":"報告委員,這幾年我們在您提醒我們的思想中間,我們已經有很大的進步,比如說國機國造、國艦國造,造就了很多我們軍方的人才能夠進去幫忙。"},{"start":568.581,"end":568.621,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":598.581,"end":598.621,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":627.688,"end":627.748,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151832","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151832","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6321f0e1668960ed3054712d423581dcc34e2527b10508eeee719f831ea1415b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"10:31:10 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10:41:01","影片長度":"00:09:51","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月29日及5月2日二天一次會））","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":591,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:41:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:31:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":521,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（10時31分）謝謝主席，我請文化部次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：次長好。臺灣的黃牛猖獗，黃牛票取締不易，這個其實這幾年在臺灣大家討論很久了，所以去年立法院也跟文化部、行政院一起努力，完成了文創法的修法。今天這個專題報告很重要的是，我們想要瞭解，自從我們修法上路之後，目前我國對於黃牛票取締的成效如何？有沒有改善？遇到哪些困難？遇到的這些困難，我們是需要透過持續地修法，還是在行政層面能夠來解決這些問題？我首先想要請教次長的是，在你們的報告裡面，我有看到有關黃牛票在六都查辦的情形，因為目前文化部是有一個檢舉專區，當文化部收到檢舉案件的時候，你們是用分案的方式來轉交給地方政府進行後面的調查嘛？"],["王次長時思：對，因為它是演唱會，是屬地調查，所以在哪個縣市舉辦，我們就會分案到哪個縣市。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，你們總共收到的檢舉案件是多少件？"],["王次長時思：有兩千多件，符合我們範圍的是2,105件。"],["吳委員沛憶：有2,105件，但是你們受理的案件數顯然不是兩千多件。"],["王次長時思：609件。"],["吳委員沛憶：因為你們會先進行初步篩選。"],["王次長時思：對，沒錯，針對刑事要件的部分進行篩選，有一些只是網路有看到就丟進來，但並沒有其他的資訊內容，所以大概就沒有辦法續行調查。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，就你們收到的2,105件，你們轉發給臺北市政府的案件是多少件？"],["王次長時思：臺北市是271件。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，我們收到臺北市文化局提供的資料，由文化部轉交過來的是753件，在753件裡面，臺北市文化局再去進一步處理，在第一步調查之後，最後受理的案件數是271件，所以我想請教一下，從文化部收到檢舉案件到分案到地方政府，這整個流程是怎麼來進行的？"],["王次長時思：如果主要是資料不齊，還是由他們結案，所以案件進去以後，還是由臺北市政府來結案，那些所謂要件不齊的案件，其實還是會進到各地方政府。"],["吳委員沛憶：對，所以實際上你們轉交給臺北市的是753件，經過臺北市調查，有些因為資料不齊全結案。"],["王次長時思：就結案了。"],["吳委員沛憶：有些它認為這個資料沒有辦法再調查，結案；有些它認為其實並沒有不合理加價，也結案，所以最後受理的案件數是271件。請教一下，你們分案給高雄市的有幾案？"],["王次長時思：受理的是152件。"],["吳委員沛憶：是，但從文化部分案下去的是幾案？"],["王次長時思：不好意思，我讓同仁稍微查一下。"],["吳委員沛憶：手邊有沒有數字？"],["王次長時思：391件。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，所以我希望你們再提供完整的數字，因為我們會想要知道，從民眾檢舉案件到最後裁罰的案件這個比例是多少。因為以臺北市來說，我們這樣算下來，臺北市民眾檢舉了753案，經過文化部初步的調查之後，分案給臺北市文化局調查，最後裁罰的是8件，也就是不到1%，所以我要瞭解各個縣市的裁罰率是多少？因為依我們來看，臺北跟高雄這兩個縣市，應該是收到檢舉案件數量最多的，高雄市政府的裁罰案件數卻是臺北市的將近3倍，所以我們想要瞭解這在行政的處理上面，是不是有什麼樣的不同？文化部有沒有去瞭解過？"],["王次長時思：有，在高雄的部分，因為整個處理的程序比較迅速，所以他們的成案率也相對高；臺北市的部分是一直希望文化部能夠有更清楚的標準是什麼，所以我們花了比較多的時間在溝通跟說明。"],["吳委員沛憶：我知道有些縣市，例如高雄市有成立打牛的專案小組。"],["王次長時思：對，他們會有專案的方式來執行……"],["吳委員沛憶：文化主管機關跟……"],["王次長時思：文化局。"],["吳委員沛憶：警察機關一起共組一個專案小組，那其他縣市不一定有這樣子的專案小組，所以我建議文化部，因為實際上法規上路之後，我們的執行層面在地方政府，那文化部是主管機關，責無旁貸，應該要來協助地方政府，各縣市之間有一些作法可以來進行交流，例如大家一直在講的這個只是加價轉售，警察局可不可以來查？依照我們文創法的修法，當然可以，得洽詢警察機關來協助嘛！像我看高雄的左營分局都到演唱會現場去查黃牛有沒有在現兜售……"],["王次長時思：對，現場交易。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個不是刑罰喔！有沒有加價轉售也在現場查，當然可以查嘛！法規給你們這樣法律的工具，行政層面就看你們如何去運用。","今天是不是警政署也有來現場？我請警政署。"],["林警政監明佐：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：我請教文創法上路之後，警政署應該有去瞭解，地方政府警察局在收到地方政府文化局有相關案件的轉交、請求協助的時候，目前這個流程是如何來進行查緝的？"],["林警政監明佐：目前本署除了依據這個專法的相關規定之外，特別是第十條之一第三項，刑事法的部分會進行調查。另外在行政法令的部分，我們本於行政協助，如果文化機關有提出要求，要我們派員到現場來協助，我們都派員。"],["吳委員沛憶：文化機關向你們提出要求要來查，我們剛剛講的就是這個買票人的身分是不是本人，身分進一步的查核，可能涉及到要去對他購票時候的匯款紀錄等等相關的資料，可能需要跟銀行來調資料，這部分警察局過去有沒有協助的經驗？"],["林警政監明佐：有關個人資料的提供，會有相關法令的規定，如果是行政法令的部分，我們在行政執行法的協助上有它的限縮性；如果是在刑事調查部分，只要合乎刑事訴訟法規定，我們都會依法來提供。"],["吳委員沛憶：就文創法上路之後，依你的瞭解，地方政府文化局收到檢舉案件，初步去查了之後，發現買票人確實有這樣的紀錄，但是進一步要去調他後面的匯款紀錄、信用卡紀錄等等，請求地方警察局來協助的時候，有沒有協助過的案件？"],["林警政監明佐：基本上文創法裡面只有第十條之一第三項是屬於刑事法，按照刑事訴訟法及個資法的相關規定，在這個……"],["吳委員沛憶：這位是警政監，我今天不是在跟你討論法，我是討論執行層面，因為我們今天討論專案報告，就是要瞭解你們執行成效。你有沒有去瞭解過各地縣市政府的警察局，就文創法上路之後文化局請求他們協助，有沒有協助過的案件？有沒有？"],["林警政監明佐：協助的案件是有……"],["吳委員沛憶：有嘛！對不對？"],["林警政監明佐：對。"],["吳委員沛憶：有，那代表可不可以？可以啊！臺北市政府的情況就是這個樣子，文化局收到檢舉案件去查黃牛，購票人身分證字號、姓名都有了，但是當事人說：「那不是我本人，我是被冒名的。」究竟是不是冒名，不是當事人說的算嘛！對吧？執法機關要進一步去調查資料嘛！文化局請求臺北市警察局來幫忙查資料，跟銀行調資料，有沒有協助？有喔！但是現在問題是什麼？有些案件警察局協助，有些案件警察局不協助，究竟是哪些案件要協助、哪些案件不協助？我希望文化部跟警政署要去瞭解地方政府現在在實務層面，整個黃牛查緝取締的流程要有一致性。我們現在已經有法了，過去因為法源不夠完備，所以很多地方在模糊地帶。我們現在已經有讓你們去查緝黃牛票的法，有法源依據，所以我不希望一個市政府裡面有兩套標準，我更不希望看見，我們也不能允許一個臺灣有兩套標準，有些地方政府可以查、有些地方政府不能查，這叫什麼法？這樣沒有辦法跟民眾交代，所以請文化部跟警政署，就目前各縣市地方政府查緝黃牛票的執行狀況，進一步具體的去瞭解，建立一套的標準，可不可以做到？"],["林警政監明佐：好的。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。"],["林警政監明佐：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","接下來請陳秀寳委員。陳秀寳委員質詢完畢之後，我們就休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","范雲","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","黃珊珊","黃捷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","邱志偉","張啓楷","羅智強","林倩綺","林楚茵","劉建國"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列\n席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":6.342218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.69659375,"end":6.949718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.117843750000002,"end":13.429718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.446593750000002,"end":14.239718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.32346875,"end":18.981593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.16284375,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.10346875,"end":47.095343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.23034375,"end":55.094093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.549718750000004,"end":86.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.27909375,"end":92.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.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因為它是演唱會的屬地調查所以如果是在哪個縣市舉辦我們就會分案到哪個縣市"},{"start":93.466,"end":102.329,"text":"總共收到的檢舉案件是多少件?有2000多件如果是符合在我們的範圍裡的是2105件2105件但是你們這個受理案件數顯然不是2000多件因為你們會先進行初步的"},{"start":112.642,"end":113.963,"text":"2105件轉發給台北市政府案件是多少件?"},{"start":132.709,"end":156.926,"text":"臺北市就是271件我們收到的臺北市文化局提供的資料是由文化部轉交過來的是753件753件裡面臺北市文化局再去進一步第一步的這個調查之後最後受理的案件數是271件所以我想請教一下從文化部收到檢舉案件到分案到地方政府這整個的流程是怎麼來進行的"},{"start":159.025,"end":171.712,"text":"主要是如果是資料不起還是由他們結案啦所以部分的所以案件算進去以後還是由臺北市政府來做結案所以他們那些所謂要見不起的案件其實還是會有進對所以實際上我們轉交給臺北市的是753件那經過臺北市去調查有些他認為說這個因為資料不起權結案"},{"start":179.717,"end":195.463,"text":"有些他認為這個資料沒有辦法再調查結案有些他認為這個其實並沒有不合理的加價他也結案所以最後受理的案件數是271件所以請教一下像我們分案給高雄市的我們分案下去是分了幾案"},{"start":197.87,"end":213.114,"text":"受理的是152件是,那從文化部分案下去的是幾案不好意思,我讓同仁稍微查一下手邊有沒有數字391件391件嘛好,所以我會希望你們再提供完整的這個數字因為我們會想要知道從民眾檢舉案件到最後裁罰的案件"},{"start":218.676,"end":225.139,"text":"這一個比例是多少因為以臺北市來說我們這樣算下來臺北市民眾檢舉的753案經過文化部初步的這個調查之後翻給臺北市文化局調查最後裁罰的是8件也就是不到1%所以我要了解各個縣市"},{"start":235.825,"end":235.865,"text":"吳沛憶議員吳沛憶議員"},{"start":264.667,"end":266.108,"text":"例如高雄市,它是有成立打牛的專案小組"},{"start":282.561,"end":302.689,"text":"對,他們會有專案的方式來做執行專案文化局管機關跟這個警察機關一起共組一個專案小組那其他縣市不一定有這樣子的專案小組所以呢我是建議我們文化部因為實際上法規上路之後我們的執行層面在地方政府"},{"start":303.249,"end":325.828,"text":"那文化部我們是主管機關則無旁貸我們應該要來協助地方政府各縣市之間有一些做法可以來進行交流例如大家一直在講的這個只是加價轉售警察局可不可以來查依照我們文創法的修法當然可以都洽詢警察機關來協助嘛像我看這個我們高雄的左營分局"},{"start":327.169,"end":334.295,"text":"演唱會現場都到現場去查有沒有現場黃牛在現場兜售這個不是刑罰有沒有加價轉售也在現場查當然可以查我們法規給你們這樣法律的工具行政層面看你們如何去運用今天是不是警政署也有來現場我請警政署"},{"start":353.976,"end":357.718,"text":"委員好目前本署除了依據這個專法的相關規定之外"},{"start":374.966,"end":388.683,"text":"第10條之一的第三項行事法部分會做驚喜調查那另外在行政法令的部分我們本與行政協助的部分如果文化機關有提出要求要我們派員到現場來協助我們的派員"},{"start":390.461,"end":401.87,"text":"那文化機關向你們提出要求要來查我們剛講的就是說這個買票人的身份是不是本人身份進一步的查核他可能涉及到要去對他的購票時候的匯款記錄相關的資料可能需要跟銀行來調資料這部分警察局過去有沒有協助的經驗"},{"start":412.844,"end":422.3,"text":"有關個人資料的提供會有相關法令的規定那如果是行政法令的部分我們在行政執行法的寫入上"},{"start":426.989,"end":451.642,"text":"就文創法上路之後依你的了解地方政府文化局收到檢舉案件初步去查了之後發現有這個買票人確實有這樣的記錄但是進一步要去來調他後面的匯款記錄信用卡記錄等等的請求地方警察局來協助的時候有沒有協助過的案件"},{"start":452.321,"end":481.244,"text":"基本上文創法裡面只有第10條之一第3項是屬於刑事法那按照刑事數碼及各執法的相關規定在這個第...來這位是我們警政階來我今天不是在跟你討論法是我是討論執行層面是因為我們今天討論專案報告就是要了解你們執行成效你有沒有去了解過各地縣市政府的警察局就文創法上路之後文化局請求他們協助有沒有協助過的案件有沒有"},{"start":481.624,"end":483.907,"text":"臺北市政府的情況就是這個樣子文化局收到檢舉案件去查黃牛、購票人身分證資料、姓名都有了但是因為當事人說那不是我本人我是被冒名的"},{"start":503.268,"end":524.926,"text":"但是究竟是不是冒名不是當事人說的算嗎對吧我們執法機關要進一步去調查資料嘛文化局請求台北市警察局來幫忙查資料跟銀行調資料有沒有協助 有喔但是呢現在的問題是什麼有些案件警察局協助有些案件警察局不協助究竟是哪些案件要協助哪些案件不協助"},{"start":526.294,"end":538.2,"text":"我希望我們文化部跟我們的警政署要去了解地方政府現在在實務層面整個黃牛查緝取締的流程要有一致性"},{"start":542.145,"end":566.611,"text":"我們現在已經有法了過去因為我們法源不夠完備所以很多地方我們在模糊地帶我們現在已經有讓你們去查緝黃牛票的法有法源依據所以我不希望是一個市政府裡面有兩套標準我更不希望看見我們也不能允許是一個台灣有兩套標準有些地方政府可以查有些地方政府不能查這叫什麼法"},{"start":568.971,"end":585.326,"text":"我們這樣沒有辦法跟民眾交代所以請文化部跟警政署就我們目前各縣市地方政府查緝黃牛票的執行狀況去進一步具體的去了解建立一套的標準可不可以做到好的好 謝謝謝謝委員好"}]}},{"id":"151831","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151831","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6606e72725733b5d812d28fff7690636534e2527b10508eee086e5678e26938075ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:26:26 - 10:38:54","影片長度":"00:12:28","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-18"},"duration":748,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:38:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:26:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":576,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（10時26分）謝謝，我們麻煩秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：吳委員早。"],["吳委員宗憲：秘書長好。秘書長，我上一次質詢的時候有跟您提到幾個案子，主要就是檢察官陳隆翔被監察委員高涌誠彈劾，當時彈劾他的那個案子。當然，當時秘書長有說這個是監察權的獨立行使嘛，也有說回去會跟他們至少講一下這件事情喔！我覺得這段時間以來，其實朝野都一直有人提說希望廢除監察院，或者是讓它暫時不運作，我想一直都有這個聲音出來。這段時間，我覺得這其實也是秘書長以前的核心理念啦，我想這應該沒講錯啦！好。這段時間，我覺得看起來有一些監察委員還是恣意妄為，甚至淪為政府打擊異己的東廠，當然，我現在是說個別委員，秘書長，我絕對沒有說監察院或說秘書長您，而是就個別委員，因為監察委員裡面也有我非常非常尊敬的長官，我們到現在都還是維持非常良好的關係，所以我的意思是指個別的委員。","我想請問一下秘書長，您之前的一些修法還有相關的政見，其實我直接回過頭去看您臉書的一些內容，我覺得都非常的認同啦！是不是在廢除監察院之前，我們應該是共同來找出這些監察院裡面的害群之馬？要跟他溝通或者甚至監察院內部是不是也要思考送紀律委員會之類的一些作法，讓某些委員能夠知道自己的作法不一定是對的？我想請問一下秘書長，你有沒有同意本席的看法，就是將來能夠跟本席一起對抗那些比較恣意妄為的監察委員？"],["李秘書長俊俋：監察委員獨立行使職權啦！我們很難對他有什麼樣的動作。但是，我以個人的經驗，我有時候會跟委員做一些討論，我們會做建議。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，這個是您之前的臉書嘛，其實當年您在擔任立委前輩、學長的時候也有就監察院的部分提了很多自己的意見……"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，我有提出，我當立委的時候，我有提過修憲案。"],["吳委員宗憲：是。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我主張廢除監察院。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，所以我剛剛說我有去看了一下秘書長您之前的一些看法。我們都知道憲法增修條文第七條第五項，其實它講得很清楚，監察委員必須超出黨派之外，依據法律獨立行使職權，但是這段時間，我就說啦！高涌誠委員，光這一位委員，他一路以來從陳隆翔的案子，那一個案子，我覺得我到現在……當時這個案子發生的時候我也還是檢察官，我必須跟你們報告一件事情，檢察官協會非常不諒解這件事情，檢察官協會是代表全國上千位的檢察官，它非常、非常、非常不諒解這件事情，我是檢察官的一員，我也非常不諒解這件事情，我可以說高涌誠委員這個監察委員完全就是在毀憲亂政，套一句柯總召的說法，這叫毀憲亂政。憲法增修條文第七條第五項明白的說，監察委員要超出黨派，但是這一位高涌誠委員總是在替某些特定人打擊異己，這非常、非常不應該，這個才叫做毀憲亂政，當然這是特定的監察委員，不是全部的委員。","在這段時間，尤其是陳隆翔的案子，就是曲棍球這個案子，不管是一審、二審、三審跟再審的法院判決都不認同段宜康的想法，造成段宜康必須去完成吞曲棍球的宣示，但是他也沒有做，而後來陳隆翔的作法，就讓非常多特定的執政黨人士不太高興、不滿意，這時候高涌誠就跳出來當打手，此舉我認為是不應該的，這個才叫做毀憲亂政，監察委員怎麼會為特定政黨服務呢？","陳隆翔的案子之外，卡管案他也出現了，林智堅論文案中的余正煌，他也出現了；再加上前兩個禮拜侯友宜的案子，他也出現了，真的難以想像一個監察委員放著正事不幹，面對這段時間的問題，口罩、快篩、疫苗、雞蛋等都不會看到他，但是35年前的一個案子，一個基層警察到現場支援，結果承辦的指揮官、帶隊官他都不找，卻去找一個到場的小警察，我不懂這個意思，至少我自己在指揮偵辦案件的時候，我就非常的清楚，承辦的警察到某一個轄區去偵辦、處理、執行案件的時候，都會知會當地分局到場協助，他們到場協助的都是做一些枝微末節的事情，甚至只是維護交通，他們不會去做案子真正核心的事情，你今天把一個到場支援的警察，狠狠的修理，結果其他帶隊官、指揮官、承辦的人你都不找，這個很難不讓社會大眾相信你不是政治的打手啊！這也間接的傷害了監察院在人民以及我們心目中超然的地位。所以針對他的這個作法，我到現在還是覺得他沒有最壞，只有更壞；高涌誠這個傢伙，沒有最壞，只有更壞，繼續無下限地在搞他的政治打擊。","我請教秘書長，之前高涌誠委員在偵辦陳隆翔案子的時候，他曾對檢察官說：你不幫我解決這個問題，就是逼我要彈劾你。請問你認同一個監察委員、這麼高職位的監察委員，對被調查人講這句話合理嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：監察委員在約詢的時候講什麼話我沒有辦法負責任。"],["吳委員宗憲：不是要秘書長負責任，我是請教你，你覺得合理嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我也不適合去做任何評論。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，我尊重秘書長的想法，但是我個人認為這個完全不合理，就像法官、檢察官在問案的時候，若口氣不好或罵髒話，常常都會被陳情，甚至後來被處分，我覺得你到那個位置就要有那個位置的樣子，而不是到那個位置，你就開始講一些有的沒有的，甚至他在調查臺大卡管案的時候也是說到：你們不要敬酒不吃吃罰酒。我覺得這個都不應該，監察委員怎麼會做這種事情呢？"],["李秘書長俊俋：卡管案查的好像是違法兼職。"],["吳委員宗憲：對，沒錯，是兼職，但是我覺得不管如何，當時他就跳進去查，要求他們出具兼職的報告，對不對？然後他在那個案子進行調查的時候講的那句話我也覺得不妥，就像我檢察官在辦一個殺人案，就算這個人真的是殺人犯，在監視器底下殺人，我們也不會去對他講一些有的沒有的，該怎麼查就怎麼查，一切都是依照程序來，所以我認為這個是不對的。","再來，我想請教一下以前的陳師孟他也曾經講過要辦那些專辦綠、不辦藍的法官，我本來想請教你，你認為這句話合不合理，但我想秘書長的意思應該還是不便發表意見。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對委員的任何發言，我們都不便做評論，陳師孟委員現在也不在監察院。"],["吳委員宗憲：畢竟監察還是有連貫性的，我的意思只是，其實我一直不認同監察委員利用執行監察職務的時候替某些人或某些政黨做一些服務，今天不管誰執政，我想秘書長您當年的想法也是這樣子，我們來看一下您的臉書，如果我們把這些東西稍微改寫、稍微思考一下，則我們現在的說詞跟您當年臉書的內容，其實是一模一樣，我們都認為監察權不應該恣意妄為，甚至我們認為監察院根本就應該要廢掉或停止它的運作，否則這段時間以來，你看這些離譜的監察委員，他們自甘作為政治的打手，但是對於民生有重大關聯性的案子，卻都看不到他們的身影，說真的，我不認同這些作法，尤其是調查一個35年前的案子，結果主導者你都不找，卻去找一個來支援的轄區警力，而且是一個基層的刑事組組長，我覺得這個是有點離譜了。而且我必須講，這個作法只會讓監察院跟監察委員在人民心目中的印象越來越不好，就像我很討厭檢察官、法官裡面的一些害群之馬，他利用辦案子、利用司法在做自己想做的事，或為特定的公司、為特定的政治人物護航，這些人我也看不起，有機會揪出來，我也會狠狠的修理他們，但監察委員也是，立法委員也是，你覺得合理嗎？我覺得我們還是必須依據憲法的設計去做我們該做的事情，我現在的講法跟秘書長您當年擔任立委時的想法其實是一致的。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我現在想法還是一樣啊！"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：只是我對委員不便做任何的評論。"],["吳委員宗憲：謝謝秘書長認同，我可以接受您說不便做任何評論，因為我可以理解獨立行使監察權這個概念。","最後，我還是麻煩秘書長今天能夠再把這個話帶給高委員，跟他講就好，我沒有要干涉你們，我們也無權干涉監察院內部怎麼運作，但真的是苦口婆心，麻煩秘書長告訴高委員，我覺得凡事適可而止就好，因為現在資訊很發達，你今天做一件事情合不合理、適不適當，我覺得全民都用眼睛在那邊看，對當年的陳隆翔是這樣，對後來的侯友宜是這樣，就算我在旁邊看，我都看不下去，當然，如果你真的要調查一件事情，該怎麼調查就依照程序來，至少像個調查的樣子，你要查一個35年前的案子，至少你把相關人等都找齊了，我覺得也沒有話說，怎麼會在第一時間、第一個找的是一個完全無關且只是在場配合執行的轄區員警？這是我沒有辦法理解的，而且我自己帶隊辦案出身，我很清楚警察會怎麼安排這些事情、要怎麼樣叫轄區警察配合、轄區警察配合的人能夠碰觸到案子什麼樣的程度等等，我們都很清楚，所以我還是沒辦法認同高委員的這個作法。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我會轉達吳委員的意見。"],["吳委員宗憲：好，謝謝秘書長。"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：我們下一位請鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員。","下一位請黃建賓委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","徐巧芯","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","羅智強","林思銘","黃建賓","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","柯建銘","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王鴻薇"],"page_start":335,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133501_00017"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.19846875,"end":10.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.235343750000002,"end":20.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.80409375,"end":25.090343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.562843750000003,"end":27.55409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.85784375,"end":29.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.157218750000002,"end":31.55346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.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曲棍球這個案子不管一審 二審 三審 跟再審的法院的判決"},{"start":273.274,"end":273.294,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":303.935,"end":321.734,"text":"陳榮祥的案子之外﹖卡管案他也出現了﹖林志傑論文案的余政煌他也出現了﹖再加上前兩個禮拜的侯友宜的案子他也出現了﹖真的難以想像一個監察委員放著政事不幹這段時間的問題呢﹖"},{"start":324.053,"end":324.073,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":342.236,"end":364.774,"text":"小警察 我不懂這個意思啦至少我自己在指揮偵辦案件的時候我非常的清楚偵辦的警察到某一個轄區去偵辦處理案件執行案件的時候都會知會當地分局到場協助那他們到場協助都是做一些知違末節的事情甚至只是維護交通他們不會去做真正案子的核心的事情"},{"start":365.575,"end":393.874,"text":"結果你今天把一個到場支援的警察你和你的修理結果其他帶隊官指揮官懲辦的人你都不找那你這個很難不讓社會大眾相信說你不是政治的打手啊那這個也間接的傷害監察院在人民以及在我們心目中那個超然的地位所以我認為他的這個做法我到現在還是覺得他沒有更壞他沒有最壞只有更壞啦"},{"start":395.458,"end":418.368,"text":"高永成這個傢伙沒有最壞只有更壞在繼續無暇限的在搞他的政治打擊我請教那個秘書長之前高永成委員他在偵辦那個陳榮祥的案子的時候他對檢察官曾經說你不幫我解決這個問題就是逼我要彈劾你請問你認同一個監察委員這麼高職位的監察委員對"},{"start":421.553,"end":437.59,"text":"被調查人講這句話合理嗎?監察委員在約群的時候講什麼話,我沒有辦法負責任。不是要,不是,報告秘書長,不是要你負責任,是我請教你,你覺得合理嗎?我也不適合去做任何評論啦。好,那我尊重秘書長的想法。"},{"start":438.551,"end":460.308,"text":"但是我個人認為這個完全不合理就像法官檢察官在問案的時候你口氣不好或罵髒話常常都被懲刑後來被處分我覺得你到那個位置就有那個位置的樣子而不是說到那個位置你就開始講一些有的沒有的甚至他對台大的台大調查台大的那個那個卡管案的時候他也是說"},{"start":461.547,"end":490.297,"text":"你們不要敬酒不吃吃罰酒我覺得這個都不應該監察委員怎麼會做這種事情法廣案查的好像是違法兼職對沒錯是兼職的時候但是我覺得不管如何當時他就跳進去查要求他們出去兼職的報告嘛對不對然後他在那個案子調查的時候講那句話我覺得也不妥就像我警察官我再辦一個殺人案就算這個人真正是殺人犯監視自己底下殺人我們也不會去對他講一些有的沒有的啦該怎麼查就怎麼查的一切是依照程序來"},{"start":491.477,"end":519.415,"text":"所以我認為這個是不對的那再來就是我想請教一下以前那個陳思夢阿他也曾經講過說他要去他要去辦那些什麼他要去查那些什麼專辦律不辦懶的那些法官那好吧我本來想請教你說你認為這句話合不合理我想說民主黨你的意思應該還是不便發表意見對委員的任何發言我們都不便做評論那陳思夢委員現在也不在監察院"},{"start":521.675,"end":545.871,"text":"那是齁 這個畢竟這個監察他是一個還是有連貫性的啦那我的意思只是說其實我一直不認同監察委員他利用執行監察職務的這個時候去做一些或替某些人或某些政黨去做一些服務我想今天不管誰執政我想秘書長您的想法一樣您當年的想法也是這樣子嘛那我們看一下齁其實"},{"start":548.618,"end":575.323,"text":"最後我們看一下您的臉書其實我覺得我們如果說把這些一些東西我們稍微改寫稍微思考一下其實跟我們現在的說辭跟您當年臉書的內容其實一模一樣我們都認為監察權不應該置意妄為甚至我們認為監察院根本就應該要廢掉或停止它的運作否則"},{"start":576.603,"end":592.296,"text":"這段時間以來你看這些離譜的監察委員他們這麼的自願自甘作為政治的打手但是在對於民生有重大關聯性的案子卻都看不到他們的身影"},{"start":593.524,"end":593.544,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":614.195,"end":639.196,"text":"我必須講一個 這個只會讓監察院跟監察委員在人民心目中的印象越來越不好就像我很討厭檢察官法官裡面一些害群之馬他利用辦案子 利用司法在做自己想做的事或為特定的公司 為特定的政治人物護航 這件我也看不起有機會揪出來 我會狠狠地修理他們但是監察委員也是 立法委員也是 我覺得我們"},{"start":640.317,"end":665.857,"text":"還是必須依據憲法的設計在做我們該做的事情我現在的想法跟秘書長您當年在擔任立委的時候您的想法我現在想法還是一樣啊我現在想法還是一樣只是我對委員的不便做任何評論是 謝謝秘書長認同啦但是我可以接受您說不便做任何評論因為我可以理解獨立行使監察權的這個概念"},{"start":669.658,"end":679.832,"text":"最後我還是麻煩一下秘書長今天能夠再把這個話能夠帶給高委員就是跟他講就好我們也無權干涉監察院內部怎麼運作但是"},{"start":683.919,"end":703.251,"text":"真的是苦口婆心麻煩秘書長告訴高委員凡事我覺得適可而止就好因為現在資訊很發達你先做一件事情合不合理適不適當我覺得全民都會有眼睛在那邊看對當年的陳榮祥這樣對後來的侯友宜這樣我坐在旁邊看我都看不下去"},{"start":704.292,"end":704.312,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":726.937,"end":727.037,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151830","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151830","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e658e463d9948e08a6055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eeee3b98117f6536c6a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"10:25:56 - 10:35:06","影片長度":"00:09:10","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":550,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:35:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:25:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":783,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（10時26分）謝謝主席。麻煩有請衛福部部長、法務部代表以及司法院代表。"],["主席：好，我們請以上官員上臺。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：時間的關係，我就不一一問候了。上次質詢時，對處理有關兒少性剝削防制條例的問題我點出來了，但實務上的問題可能需要衛福部、法務部跟司法院大家一起坐下來好好談清楚。這件事情發生了沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前還沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候會發生？"],["張司長秀鴛：4月25日在諮詢會議有特別提出來，會上有建議司法院帶回去參照白玫瑰運動去……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，請你針對問題回答。我上次質詢要求的是三個部門坐下來談，這件事情部長說還沒有發生，所以我現在的問題是：什麼時候會發生？還是永遠不會發生？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該……我看看下個禮拜能不能找來一起……"],["黃委員國昌：儘快！"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["黃委員國昌：因為今天所牽涉到的法案，其實與三個部門密切相關，特別是牽涉到有關於兒少性剝削防制條例相關條文法定刑提高的問題。為什麼我們這麼重視這個問題？當我們的立法者都著眼於在法定刑提高的時候，我個人是贊成，但更重要的事情是什麼？那就是實務上到底是怎麼操作的，要讓大家看得清楚現實，否則這樣子的條文再修過一次……剛剛已經有委員講了，上一次修法提高刑度後，顯然沒有效果，否則我們今天不會在這邊齊聚一堂，針對同樣的問題，再次要提修法！我簡單請教一下，部長，目前不管是製造還是散播兒少性影像的罰則，從衛福部的立場來講會不會覺得法定刑過低？"],["薛部長瑞元：持有這個部分。"],["黃委員國昌：其他的部分呢？你覺得OK？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是……這當然還是要由法務部這邊……"],["黃委員國昌：請法務部。"],["汪參事南均：報告委員，目前看現行法條，是跟刑法妨害秘密、妨害性隱私與不實影像罪這些刑度相比較。目前看起來，當初可能應該都有設想到衡平性與比例性……"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛你講到一個重點，就是討論所謂的衡平性。討論衡平性這件事我贊成，但問題是什麼？問題是，整個刑事處罰上全部都是偏低的！所謂全部偏低就是，如果有個法定刑，譬如一年以上七年以下、三年以上十年以下、五年以上十二年以下，那麼在審判實務上，全部都是從最低的刑度開始往上加，我的理解正不正確？"],["汪參事南均：這要看個案判斷。"],["黃委員國昌：好，我等一下馬上給你看個案。法律人在國會殿堂就講實話了，法律人在國會殿堂就講實話了！我進一步請教，意圖營利犯前二項之罪，依各該條項之規定加重其刑至二分之一，加重是怎麼加重的？譬如說六月以上、五年以下有期徒刑，加重最低刑度是多少？"],["汪參事南均：六月以上最低刑度應該就是九月。"],["黃委員國昌：不對！錯！請司法院。"],["謝廳長靜慧：六月以上就是包含六月。"],["黃委員國昌：加重其刑至二分之一是加重多少？在場有沒有刑事法官？來，請說。"],["朱法官嘉川：跟委員說明，因為現在的法律規定「加重至二分之一」，因為這個「至」，所以實務上穩定的見解是認為最高刑度、最高可以提到二分之一。"],["黃委員國昌：我剛剛問的是最低。"],["朱法官嘉川：最低刑度是有加重即可，所以……"],["黃委員國昌：有加重即可！"],["朱法官嘉川：對。"],["黃委員國昌：這件事你要告訴所有的立法委員，加重其刑至二分之一是最低刑度六個月，只要有加，那麼七個月開始就可以了。所有法官在量刑時，都是從最低開始做起，這個審判實務要讓所有立法委員知道啊！要不然大家拼了命在搞最高刑度，有什麼用？在審判實務上到底造成什麼衝擊？","我帶大家看一下，這個是美國法，與兒少性剝削有關。僱用、勸說、引誘兒少製造性影像，初犯十五年以上三十年以下；如果有一次性犯罪的前科，第二次再犯，二十五年以上五十年以下；如果有兩次性犯罪的前科，第三次犯，三十五年以上、無期徒刑；如果在這個過程當中導致人家死亡的話，死刑、無期徒刑、三十年以上有期徒刑，這是美國立法者的立法技術。如果是散播、販賣、意圖販賣而持有兒少的性影像，初犯，五年以上二十年以下；有一次前科，十五年以上四十年以下，這個是人家的立法技術，它在處罰的是什麼？要澈底地保護兒少避免受到數位性暴力、性剝削，人家是這樣在幹的。","看一下我國的審判實務長成什麼樣子，我以具體的例子，我不跟你們談抽象的問題，我以具體的例子，有一個性侵犯出獄了以後，出獄了以後他繼續什麼？仲介人家去旅館賣淫，仲介人家去旅館賣淫以後，這個是累犯喔，仲介兩個女子到兩個不同的旅館去賣淫，一個判六個月，一個判四個月，應執行有期徒刑八個月，定執行刑嘛！易科罰金，1,000元折算一天，等於是繳多少錢這件事情就結束了？繳8萬塊這件事情就結束了。不要以為這樣就停止了，這樣的處罰，對於他有沒有嚇阻的效力？我老實跟大家報告，完全沒有嚇阻的效力！所以他出來了以後繼續幹什麼？把我們兒少的性影像上傳到網站。臺灣女學生自慰、小女生脫衣服，累犯判多久？各處有期徒刑三個月，易科罰金均以1,000元折算一日，所以總共罰了多少錢？總共罰了多少錢？一個罪3萬塊解決，搞到他什麼？變本加厲，越來越離譜，再度誘使7名兒少製造性影像傳到網站上面去，結果是用我們的刑法累犯來看怎麼加重的？到第二審的時候，三年以上有期徒刑法定刑的罪，第一個，未滿12歲的女童，第二審判三年；第二個，未滿16歲的少女，三年四個月；七個被害人加起來，最後定刑多少？四年！多一個被害人，邊際效用不斷地降低，七個被害人喔，七個被害人定執行刑什麼？四年！累犯加重加到哪裡去啊？就像剛剛司法院的法官講的啊，有加重就好嘛，這是我們現在的刑事司法政策啊！但我們要澈底反省的是什麼？這樣的刑事司法政策是在保護被害人嗎？還是在鼓勵加害人繼續幹、繼續搞？沒有關係啊，我們的刑事司法體系，對於這種一而再、再而三犯案的人，是如此地寬容啊，這就是為什麼社會憤怒的原因啊！部長，同不同意？"],["薛部長瑞元：這的確是在實務上面，如果是有這樣子的情形的話，可能是社會上面比較不能接受……"],["黃委員國昌：主席站起來了，相關的討論，等一下進逐條的時候，我們一件一件來對，這是為什麼我要求衛福部、法務部跟司法院，不要三個部門一人一把號，各吹各的調，你們三個部門統合起來實踐的結果，就是我今天這個個案，讓這個加害人哪裡有任何的警惕？哪裡有任何的遏止？哪裡有任何的處罰？這個體系是在鼓勵他，說你繼續搞沒有關係，我們的司法體系對你很寬容啊，但這個是社會可以忍受的嗎？我可能拜託等一下進逐條的時候，三個部門、三個部門的人，要認真地面對這件事情，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。等一下王育敏委員質詢結束之後，我們休息5分鐘。","接下來我們請林淑芬委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1","speakers":["王育敏","黃捷","蘇清泉","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","陳冠廷","李坤城","許宇甄","沈伯洋","王世堅","陳菁徽","王美惠","王鴻薇","張雅琳","何欣純","范雲","林思銘","林月琴","陳昭姿","廖偉翔","劉建國","黃國昌","林淑芬","陳俊宇","王正旭","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳亭妃","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","李彥秀","蔡易餘","莊瑞雄","楊曜","盧縣一","涂權吉","羅智強","黃仁","沈發惠","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一\n條條文修正草案」案；二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十\n九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案；三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例\n第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案；六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童\n及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之\n一條文草案」案；十一、委員李坤城等 22 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案；十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案；十\n四、委員廖偉翔等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草\n案」案；十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草\n案」案；十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十\n七、委員黃建賓等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草\n案」案；十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修\n正草案」案；十九、委員王世堅等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十、委員陳菁徽等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十\n一、委員王美惠等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二十\n二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員王鴻薇\n等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬\n具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二\n十六、委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委\n員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案；\n二十八、委員劉建國等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n委員柯志恩等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十、委員陳素月\n等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十一、委員范雲等17人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十二、委員林俊憲等21人擬具「兒童及\n少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十三、委員林思銘等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝\n削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十四、委員張雅琳等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條\n例部分條文修正草案」案；三十五、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條\n文修正草案」案；三十六、委員林月琴等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.78909375,"end":14.712218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":15.454718750000001,"end":17.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":17.98596875,"end":18.50909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.812843750000003,"end":18.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.82971875,"end":18.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.84659375,"end":19.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.80409375,"end":20.871593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.871593750000002,"end":20.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.90534375,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.32596875,"end":36.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.05471875,"end":41.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.712218750000005,"end":43.939718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.97346875,"end":45.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.470968750000004,"end":46.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.70721875,"end":46.85909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.01096875,"end":48.344093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.07409375,"end":49.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":51.14534375,"end":51.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.360343750000006,"end":53.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":53.35596875,"end":60.257843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.37284375,"end":53.406593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.00471875,"end":70.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_06","start":60.814718750000004,"end":60.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.66096875000001,"end":73.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":74.02784375,"end":79.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.02284375,"end":83.59596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.03471875000001,"end":88.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.55284375000001,"end":92.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.69159375000001,"end":95.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.03284375000001,"end":96.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.65284375,"end":101.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.44534375,"end":104.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.72346875000001,"end":107.44034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.91284375000001,"end":109.29659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.90409375,"end":112.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.87409375,"end":113.76846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.24096875000001,"end":118.37534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.16846875,"end":126.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.88034375000001,"end":127.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.16284375,"end":128.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.64784375000002,"end":133.42784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.13659375,"end":134.91284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":134.96346875,"end":135.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.28409375,"end":140.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.62971875,"end":139.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":141.37596875,"end":145.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.32909375,"end":145.24034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":148.46346875,"end":150.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":151.28159375,"end":158.23409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":158.58846875,"end":166.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.33409375000002,"end":173.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.07971875,"end":178.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.68659375000001,"end":179.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.83409375000002,"end":182.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.97284375,"end":183.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.12471875,"end":186.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.70221875000001,"end":189.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.19096875000002,"end":192.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.08096875,"end":195.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.96659375000002,"end":197.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":198.49784375000002,"end":200.48909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.91534375,"end":202.1259687500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ext":"這的確是在實務上面如果是有這樣子的情形的話可能是社會上面比較不能...主席站起來相關的討論我們等一下進主條的時候我們一件一件來一對這是為什麼我要求衛福部、法務部跟司法院不要三個藝人一把號各吹各的調你們三個部門統合起來實踐的結果"},{"start":520.273,"end":547.292,"text":"就是我今天這個個案讓這個加害人哪裡有什麼警哪哪裡有任何的警惕哪裡有任何的意旨哪裡有任何的處罰這個體系是在鼓勵他你繼續搞沒有關係啊我們的司法體系對你很寬容啊但這個是社會可以忍受的嗎我可能拜託齁等一下進主條的時候三個部門三個部門的人要認真的面對這件事情謝謝"},{"start":548.834,"end":548.854,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151829","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151829","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6020256afe965b5b2656dd8af69baafbe34e2527b10508eee66a45ae5360df2805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:18:25 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簡單說明那因為那個藥師跟藥劑師是先經過那個資格考我知道他們是考試的啦我說他們在農家裡面有什麼樣的差別比如說薪資比如說工作他們的差別在哪裡那當然就有差別因為基本上差別在哪裡"},{"start":376.895,"end":395.41,"text":"因為他的職務略等會比較高那是他領比較多錢以你們榮家現在裡面我想請教最近考試院舉辦的國考裡面護士國考在101年就停辦了也就是說在10年前就停辦了沒有護士這樣子的證照了"},{"start":396.971,"end":418.3,"text":"藥劑生的國考在82年就停辦了是在30年前就已經停辦了可是你的編制裡面還有這麼多藥劑生跟護士結果你任用進來以後他拿的是藥師的資格他拿的是護理師的資格可是他領的薪水是藥劑生跟護士的這樣的薪水"},{"start":419.445,"end":425.669,"text":"他的差別在這裡他做的工作一樣他就是薪水領得比人家低而已所以這是編制的不合理你今天如果你用的工作都是一樣像一樣是退輔會的系統在醫院裡面他還有藥劑生還有護士的編制因為有些人那時候拿的可能現在年紀比較大了可是他那時候考試的資格是護士跟藥劑生所以他持續在那個工作崗位的時候他拿的是這樣的證照"},{"start":449.866,"end":466.307,"text":"所以還有這樣的編制可是在有一些他已經拿了藥師或者護理師的執照的時候他領的薪水是藥師跟護理師的薪水只有我們農家還是給人家藥劑生跟護士的薪資"},{"start":468.139,"end":469.08,"text":"謝謝您指示出來這一個重點我們馬上回去檢討而且一定會把它修正"},{"start":493.743,"end":494.043,"text":"委員會把他列入交辦事項"},{"start":521.535,"end":524.096,"text":"謝謝主委這就是我們欣賞你的地方因為在有些該改進或者該為同仁或者該為相關的一些爭取福利的時候我覺得您是比較可以從善如流的那這個部分我們希望趕快就給我們一些進度的一個"},{"start":543.041,"end":544.504,"text":"結論還有報告接下來還有一個就是我們在榮民他的就醫的部分"},{"start":557.523,"end":580.35,"text":"主委您看我們過去其實退輔會對於榮民除了有第一類跟第二類的區分以外在就醫的部分還有分為有職業跟沒有職業的一些相關的健保費的補助沒有職業的還有沒有職業的榮民跟宜眷家戶代表他是屬於第六類那是由退輔會會有補助嗎"},{"start":587.392,"end":588.213,"text":"有職業的容免則需依身分別自行全額繳納"},{"start":611.639,"end":638.629,"text":"108年蔡總統指示核定警察消防海巡還有空勤人員他的醫療照護方案的這個措施裡面你看看他的部分負擔是全額補助不管國防部退輔會部立醫院或指相關的指定醫院所有的醫院他全部都是全額補助對於我們警察消防海巡空勤人員都是全額補助的"},{"start":639.471,"end":643.973,"text":"可是這個在我們自己的榮民裡面反而沒有受到這樣的照顧而且他還有分有職業的還要自己負擔我們不是一直都鼓勵說榮民他退退伍以後應該要去應該要還要繼續就職嗎這是我們照顧他的一個本質而且在我們現在尤其所有的軍人都非常的辛苦在我們的"},{"start":665.845,"end":667.066,"text":"報告委員,我們馬上協調國防部,該我們做的部分馬上修訂"},{"start":686.587,"end":690.371,"text":"我們非常認同我們所有的警察還有包括消防還有海巡還有空警人員其實他們是非常辛苦非常付出的那個"},{"start":708.211,"end":708.371,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":733.314,"end":733.334,"text":"謝謝馬委員"}]}},{"id":"151828","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151828","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e67c7a11549e530a4b054712d423581dcc34e2527b10508eeefe735c1817cf84155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"10:21:23 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10:31:05","影片長度":"00:09:42","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月29日及5月2日二天一次會））","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":582,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:31:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:21:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":479,"blocks":[["郭委員昱晴：（10時21分）主席早，有請文化次長。"],["主席：好，請文化部次長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["郭委員昱晴：次長，早安。我想大家都提到很多跟黃牛有關的一些問題，一般民眾想要進到表演的場地去看一下表演或者是看一下賽事，其實真的也比不過那些用大型的外掛系統在大量掃票的黃牛啦！在上個禮拜一個寫程式的竹科工程師落網，但是在所有的調查過程當中，他其實也點到了目前所有的售票機制出現的一些漏洞和一些問題，其實大部分都是在講就是在比網速，網速跟系統其實沒有辦法透過……我們來看一下所有買票的過程，包含要輸入驗證碼，但是這個售票系統能不能夠透過所謂的驗證碼來辨認出到底是不是真人，但是他又沒有辦法阻止機器人去搶票，他覺得非常不公平，所以他寫了這樣的程式，雖然他落網，但是他真正違法的原因其實在於他偽造文書，因為他可能用了很多人的個資。針對這個部分，其實數發部在數位簽章法通過之後，除了身分證被冒用的這個狀況有可能會減少，這個的確也是，但是是不是能夠在所有的售票系統當中改善所謂的驗證碼是不是真人這樣的問題，這個部分你怎麼看？"],["王次長時思：我想這部分我們可以跟數發部、警政署來協談，看可以怎麼強化這些事情。"],["郭委員昱晴：今天數發部有代表嗎？我想這個問題其實也蠻大的，因為的確我們有政策，他們有對策，數發部怎麼看？"],["林副署長俊秀：就跟委員剛剛提到的一樣，電子簽章法承蒙委員會通過了，之後會發布實施，因為它是有電子簽章跟數位簽章，已經是由第三方憑證單位發的，所以他如果要用數位簽章，就已經證實他是本人了，我們初步的構想是，驗證碼的需要性可能我們就可以來討論。"],["郭委員昱晴：為什麼網路上黃牛猖獗的行為還是沒有辦法被強力的遏止？我覺得雖然文創法在去年6月已經開始有做一些調整跟修法，這個立意是良善的，但問題是對於黃牛，真的拿他們一點皮條都沒有嗎？我們來看一下，在第十條之一有講到，對於以不正當的方式取得票券以及所謂的加價轉售的行為加以規範，另外，明確規定只要是以超過票面金額或定價販售。但我們後來其實看到有很多人說，那不對啊！我只是為了郵寄，所以我超過了票面金額。我們定出來的是只要超過票面，就應該可以檢舉，就覺得是黃牛。問題是到真正的、真實的狀況，其實有的不是黃牛，這個部分我們的標準不一，這個怎麼解決？"],["王次長時思：沒有，這個部分是這樣，在加價的部分，它的關鍵是，它的加價是加在票價上，還是第三方獲得？剛剛委員提到了郵資、交通費，因為販售二手票而增加的費用，基本上因為它是第三方，不會計入票價，所以它的確要透過個案來認定。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我們現在在檢舉黃牛的部分，其實大部分都是被動地接到案子、檢舉的，對不對？我們並沒有主動地去出擊，為什麼？"],["王次長時思：是，因為我們不是司法、警方等查察的單位。"],["郭委員昱晴：我們來看一下，整個檢舉的流程，包含座位區必填、選位的位置必填，但現在的黃牛沒有這麼笨，他其實都會跟一般人說，你先把錢匯給我，之後等到你拿到票……而且我只告訴你大概是哪一個，我們來看一下這個對話，這個對話是真的喔！"],["王次長時思：所以這個就很有可能變成詐欺。"],["郭委員昱晴：除了詐欺以外，我們真的拿黃牛沒有辦法嗎？我們整個檢舉的流程是這麼地繁複，我們怎麼期待它能夠成案呢？"],["王次長時思：但沒有座位號會沒有辦法找到本人，沒有辦法找到賣票的人，所以這是為什麼一定要有座位號，因為他買票的時候會有一個買票的紀錄，所以你要拿到這個座位號或者是流水編號，你才有辦法取得買票人的資料，這是一個關鍵，要不然就得有銀行轉帳……"],["郭委員昱晴：這是關鍵，但也是最大的一個問題嘛！也就是說，我根本不知道買票的人是誰，我根本沒有給你一個正確的細節。"],["王次長時思：就沒有辦法進行裁罰。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以成案率才會這麼、這麼地低啊！我們來看一下文化部的資料，以臺北市政府為例，你看一下整個臺北市政府的資料，上個月其實苗博雅議員也質詢了臺北市政府文化局，他提到10個月下來，開罰率只有1%，總共753件的檢舉案件當中，只有8件開罰，這中間到底出了什麼狀況？就是基本上它掌握不到黃牛的資訊，這個部分怎麼跨部會來解決？"],["王次長時思：這個部分的確是受限於這個……整體來說裁罰就是要符合罪刑法定，所以你一定要取得確實的當事人資料才能夠進行裁罰，這也是黃牛如果用數位的方式來進行搶票產生的最大困難。"],["郭委員昱晴：尤其是現在，其實很多表演的場合主要是在六都，那麼以臺北市、高雄市……"],["王次長時思：是主要的場合。"],["郭委員昱晴：其實在成案率就有一個很大地、明顯地落差，當然臺北市政府說是員額不夠。員額的部分其實是臺北市政府……"],["王次長時思：他們可以增加。"],["郭委員昱晴：以臺北市政府人力這麼多的一個狀況，我不相信員額會分配不了，但是我相信，文化局跟文化部在我們訂立了這樣子的修法關鍵之後，你們是不是沒有告訴他們一個統一的準則？讓他們沒有方法，所以成案率只有1%，只有8件開罰。"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，其實在方法上，我們大概就是一再地協調跟說明，因為它大概有幾個關鍵，譬如售票平臺要提供買受人的資料，你要跟警方確認個資的真實性、要跟電信業者調手機，或者是知道他的銀行帳號等等，這些方法都是可能調查的方法，但的確……"],["郭委員昱晴：所以這等於就是要跨部會處理，要再次地跨部會協調，甚至中央跟地方，文化部跟文化局，要統一啊！"],["王次長時思：可以，有，這個有。"],["郭委員昱晴：那統一的這個平臺：第一，在簡化檢舉的流程當中，是不是能夠掌握到黃牛的真實身分？這個部分包含金管會，他是用誰的卡？是用誰的身分？到底是誰去買票？是誰去掃票？我們才能夠掌握到真實的……"],["王次長時思：的確。"],["郭委員昱晴：這個部分是不是應該要來解決？要跨部會來解決啊！"],["王次長時思：這個部分主要還是牽涉到法源的依據，因為它算是一個比較強力要求人民權利的事項，等於是你要求他交出這些個資，所以這個部分，我們來研議看看可以怎麼做。"],["郭委員昱晴：所以我們才說要用主動來代替被動的檢舉，因為我們在檢舉的過程當中，那個流程這麼地繁複，其實這到最後就變成不成案啊！"],["王次長時思：可是在主動的調查裡面，因為也沒有個資，就算他在社群上刊登，但你也沒有辦法瞭解真正的刊登者是誰。"],["郭委員昱晴：其實有太多的檢舉案件，到最後是用補件不全作為結案的理由，所以這也是讓我們覺得黃牛沒有辦法完全被檢舉的一個原因。好，今天因為時間的關係，最後我再用一點點的時間，我們講到文策院，其實我們支持文創產業貸款的部分，中央銀行在3月21號決定升息半碼，對於很多文創、戲劇產出的業者來講，如果是3,000萬的貸款，光升息半碼每個月就要增加3,125元。那這個部分就有人來陳情的狀況，我們是不是可以建議文化部，這個地方是不是可以比照所謂的就學貸款，甚至青年創業啟動金的貸款，或者是疫情之後的振興貸款？就是不要讓這些文化產業業者的貸款升息，這個部分我們是不是可以比照其他的一些貸款來幫助他們？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，我們的確在研議怎麼樣可以減輕利息，因為利息是變動的，所以當升息的時候，這個壓力就會出現，所以我們的確在研議看有沒有可以改善、減輕貸款利息的方式。"],["郭委員昱晴：這是為了要鼓勵更多的文創青年來加入文創產業。"],["王次長時思：是。"],["郭委員昱晴：好，謝謝。"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員。"],["郭委員昱晴：謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝郭昱晴委員。","接下來請吳沛憶委員。本席宣布：我們在陳秀寳委員質詢完畢之後就休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","范雲","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","黃珊珊","黃捷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","邱志偉","張啓楷","羅智強","林倩綺","林楚茵","劉建國"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列\n席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.021593750000001,"end":8.56971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.654093750000001,"end":9.902843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.931593750000001,"end":15.657218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.910343750000003,"end":29.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.86596875,"end":48.057218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.799718750000004,"end":80.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.09846875000001,"end":108.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.87471875000001,"end":111.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":112.11471875000001,"end":117.39659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.45596875000001,"en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因為是第三方所以不會計入這個票價所以它的確要透過個案來做認定"},{"start":233.993,"end":243.44,"text":"好我們現在其實在檢舉黃牛的部分其實大部分都是所謂的被動的接到案子檢舉的對不對我們並沒有主動的去出擊為什麼我們來看一下整個所有的檢舉的一個流程包含我的座位區必填包含我選位的位置必填但現在黃牛其實沒有這麼笨喔"},{"start":256.829,"end":267.76,"text":"他其實都會叫一般人你先把錢匯給我我之後等到你拿到票而且我只告訴你我大概是哪一個我們來看一下這個對話這個對話是真的"},{"start":271.733,"end":287.237,"text":"除了炸雞以外可是我們真的拿黃牛沒有辦法嗎我們在整個所有的檢舉的流程是這麼的繁複我們怎麼期待他們都成案呢沒有辦法找到本人沒有辦法找到賣票的人所以這是為什麼一定要座位號因為他買票的時候會有一個買票的紀錄嘛所以你要拿到這個座位號或者是流水編號你才有辦法取得買票人的資料這是一個關鍵"},{"start":295.979,"end":296.479,"text":"臺北市政府為例"},{"start":315.993,"end":341.288,"text":"我們的議員苗博雅他也質詢了這個臺北市政府的一個教育局那個文化局他提到10個月下來開罰率只有1%總共檢舉的案件753件當中只有8件開罰這中間到底出了什麼狀況就是他們基本上他掌握不到整個黃牛的一個資訊那這個部分我們怎麼跨部會來做解決啊"},{"start":342.288,"end":360.524,"text":"這個部分的確是受限於這個整體來說要裁罰就是罪行法定所以你一定要取得確實的這個當事人的資料才能夠進行裁罰這也是整個在黃牛如果用數位的方式來進行搶票的話尤其是現在其實很多的表演的場合"},{"start":361.425,"end":361.485,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":382.196,"end":405.586,"text":"以臺北市政府人力這麼多的一個狀況我不相信員額會分配不了但是我相信文化局其實在跟文化部這邊我們訂立這樣子的一個修法的一個整個所有的關鍵之後是不是沒有一個統一的告訴他們我們的一個統一的準則是什麼讓他們真的沒有方法所以成案率只有1%只有8件開罰"},{"start":408.447,"end":428.215,"text":"跟委員報告其實在方法上我們大概就是一再的協調跟做說明因為他大概有幾個關鍵比如說你要售票平台要提供買售人的這個資料你要跟警方確認這個個資的真實性要跟電信業者調手機或者甚至是知道他的銀行帳號等等那像這些方法他都是可能調查的方法"},{"start":428.695,"end":428.735,"text":"主席"},{"start":458.897,"end":461.114,"text":"那這個部分是不是應該要來解決啊?"},{"start":463.556,"end":491.607,"text":"主要是他還是牽涉到法院的依據因為他算是一個比較強力要求人民的權利事項等於是你要求他交出這些個資所以這個部分所以我們才說要用主動來代替被動的檢舉因為我們在檢舉的過程當中那個流程這麼的繁複其實到最後就變成所謂的不成案的成立可是在主動的調查裡面因為也沒有個資因為就算他在社群上刊登但你也沒有辦法取得那刊登者"},{"start":492.287,"end":492.567,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":515.014,"end":528.994,"text":"在我們3月21日他決定升息半碼．對於很多的文創、戲劇產出的業者來講．他們包含如果是三百萬、三千萬的一個貸款．光升息半碼每個月就要增加3125元．"},{"start":531.297,"end":559.267,"text":"那這個部分其實我們提供的這樣子的一個有人來澄清的這樣一個狀況我們是不是可以建議我們的文化部這個地方是不是可以比照所謂的就學貸款甚至青年創業啟動這個啟動金的一個貸款或者是在疫情之後的振興貸款這樣子就是不要去讓這樣子的文化產業的業者讓他們生息這個部分我們是不是可以比照其他的一些貸款來幫助"},{"start":560.506,"end":560.626,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151827","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151827","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e63b9ff3fd59821a1612d28fff7690636534e2527b10508eeeaa4188f185dccfdb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:15:01 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司法獨立何謂司法獨立依照你個人的了解你簡單回答"},{"start":373.789,"end":398.772,"text":"就是不受黨派的約束不受其他的約束自行來依照法律來做自我的判斷我想其實司法獨立的重要的精髓就是說法官他在做判決的時候或在做審判的時候不受任何外力的干涉及影響嘛我同意所以跟他現在他講說他本身是律師欸他怎麼會講說司法獨立的存在價值在於反抗多數"},{"start":399.953,"end":427.355,"text":"法官可以反抗多數法官本於他的一個對法律的一個認知以及實現正義這樣子指的一個理念去做出司法獨立的一個裁判不受外力任何的干涉怎麼會去把它去把它影射到去把它牽涉到司法獨立存在的價值在於反抗多數我想這個真的是荒腔走板的發言一個監察委員會做出這樣子的一個言論"},{"start":428.988,"end":449.964,"text":"民主黨你認為他這樣的說法你接受嗎?你接受嗎?真的你接受嗎?我再一次跟林委員報告高雄城委員這一次是代表國家人權委員會去憲法法庭的不是代表監察院這個要分清楚那國家人權委員會本來就不是我幕僚長管轄的範疇我們只負責他的人事跟預算"},{"start":450.785,"end":472.198,"text":"委員長當然您是一直在就相關的他的法定職權您在做區分其實我想要表達的是說畢竟他是監察委員他也因為監察委員他才可以擔任他因為本身是監察委員他才可以擔任這個人權委員會的這個委員嘛所以這種雙重角色之下他去"},{"start":473.817,"end":484.016,"text":"去代表人權委員會去做這樣的一個完全違背司法獨立價值的一個發言這種監委還有存在的必要嗎?"},{"start":484.775,"end":514.218,"text":"你抽出那個content看起來就當然會很奇怪那你如果放在那個content裡面其實當天在表達的詹森林大法官問的問題就是說現在的民意確實主張有死刑的比較多數但是是不是一定要這個尊重這個多數的民意這個是詹森林大法官的意見那包括法務部包括人權委員會都有對這個做答覆所以不管詹森林大法官也好我想外界也對他多所批評"},{"start":515.694,"end":536.712,"text":"我想我們相關的學者對於學術的一個他的一個看法有些我們會覺得說他真的是對學術的有一個傲慢他認為他的學術看法就對的其實不然認為政策的擬定都要順從民意在我們現在實定法裡面就有死刑這樣的一個相關的規定"},{"start":537.933,"end":565.939,"text":"所以你大法官你要去了解說現在民意的走向是怎樣為什麼我們當初刑法要有死刑這樣子的一個立法還有我們現在立法政策是怎麼樣立法政策難道不用考量我們的民意嗎要不要我想您當過民意的立法委員所以我們在擬定相關政策的時候您沒意見嘛就是說要去對相關民意要做調查才擬定相關的政策嘛這麼高的民意"},{"start":567.25,"end":568.892,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":581.044,"end":599.771,"text":"去講說這個為何一定要順從民意我想這離民意太遠了啦所以我才會講到說監委高永成又附和他去講這樣子的一個話司法獨立的存在價值在於反抗多數反抗多數的民意跟民意對幹"},{"start":601.823,"end":626.494,"text":"李委員我沒有辦法對每一個人講的每一句話所以嘛所以我在想說我們還是希望監察院對於相關的監察委員的原型舉止在這個不管是公開的啦或私下的啦李署長您都有這個責任去告訴他們去約束他們做監察委員要有個監察委員的一個樣子啦"},{"start":627.517,"end":628.317,"text":"我還是衷心的期盼"},{"start":648.243,"end":658.852,"text":"您現在貴為秘書長真的要多多的去跟這些監察委員做出正確的一個建議我會把林委員的意見做好以上好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151826","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151826","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e65f94058d9ee98fa4055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eee0c38360a1b553cc65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"劉建國","委員發言時間":"10:17:36 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10:25:52","影片長度":"00:08:16","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":496,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:25:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:17:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":764,"blocks":[["劉委員建國：（10時17分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["劉委員建國：以部長的能力，畢業代表作應該不只這一項，我等下再多加幾項給你。我先來講一下背景資料，好不好？就今天委員會召委在排兒少性剝削防制條例，我想本法在刑責處十年以上的，僅第三十三條第二項意圖營利，以強暴、脅迫、恐嚇、監控等等，其他違反本人意願之方法，使兒童或少年為有對價之性交或猥褻行為者，我要講國內跟國外相關的背景資料提供給部長，也給在座的包含司法院、法務部及警政署相關單位。本法在七年以上的刑責有第三十三條、第三十四條、第三十五條、第三十六條，事實上在去年我們在立院，也一樣是在這個委員會，有針對兒少性剝削條例進行大修，部長及司長應該都在。行政院版本針對第三十五條，將招募、引誘、容留、媒介、協助、利用或以他法，使兒童或少年為性交或猥褻之行為，以供人觀覽者，從處以一年以上七年以下有期徒刑，調高為處三年以上十年以下有期徒刑，得併科新臺幣三百萬元以下罰金。這都是很清楚的，這個大概在去年修法中，也是刑度調得最高的一條。但是法剛修完，在一年後，我們又拿出來要大修了，所以那一年我們到底做了什麼事情？這是我們要很慎重地思考，不只是行政機關，包含我們相關的委員同事，這個是很罕見的事情，我們的修法與人民期待是不是有滿大的落差？甚至於去年度的修法完成之後，其實沒有辦法達到任何嚇阻的效果，所以今天我們才必須再來審查這個法案，這個是我們國內的背景資料。","而講到國外，英國有一位28歲工程師架設相關網站，在英國被判刑，入獄16年，同時被終身列為性犯罪者的名冊，在監獄服滿後，還得進行4年的社區服刑，兩個加總是20個年度的刑期；另外，美國針對兒少性剝削的天花板最高可達到20年，這個大家應該都知道了，對比臺灣的刑責真的還有滿大的一個差距，這是國外。","我想臺灣法律的現狀也有一句話叫作「有錢判生，沒錢判死」，現在進行式。部長跟司長可以看到這個例子，我們針對黃子佼這個案子，如果依照現行法律規定，單純持有未成年性影像，法定刑為一年以下有期徒刑，檢察官以被告為初犯且坦承犯罪，為受害少女隱私與權利保障，考量本罪刑度，被告願意支付一百二十萬緩起訴金而為緩起訴，並無輕縱，這是檢察機關的說法。","不僅如此，我們再看，近年來從Google隨便撈出來就有這類東西：哄17歲女網友拍裸照還騙上床，男護理師和解金賠償獲緩刑；引誘3高中少女拍不雅照片，男大生和解，輕判緩刑四年；臺中男大生利誘少年拍裸照，連表弟也不放過，和解獲判緩刑；男與未成年少女發生性行為，還看私密影像，獲判兩年，緩刑三年；誘少女自拍裸露照片，認罪和解賠錢，遭判刑一年七個月、緩刑三年；瓦斯工誘少女去廁所拍裸照，被發現後向家長求饒，賠兩萬，獲判緩刑。所以這是現狀，是現在進行式，有錢判生，沒錢判死！在委員會所有委員與所有相關機關努力下，上一次修法將相關刑責大大提高之後所得到的效益是這樣，結果是這樣！","我之所以要提出這些，是希望等一下在修法過程裡可以給大家作為參考，我們真的不能因為有錢，就對兒少性剝削做這樣的處理，在臺灣不應該有這種事情再發生！我覺得我們必須提高整個兒少性剝削條例的刑責，至於在實際的執行面到底要怎麼處理，才可以達到國際零容忍的標準，則有賴大家的智慧做共同思考。我把這些事情講出來，因為5分鐘的發言時間很快。","最後一件事情，在這次眾多版本中，有人提到公開犯罪人姓名資料，我不知道薛部長和法務部的意見是什麼，等一下討論會提到。但有一個重點，這以前其實也是我們修過的主題，性侵害犯罪防治法第二十九條規定，中央警政主管機關應建立加害人之相片、指紋、去氧核醣核酸紀錄及個人基本資料，但目前僅就性侵害加害人建置資料，所以我要在這邊具體建議，要建立性犯罪資料庫，而所謂性犯罪資料庫就包含性剝削等等在內，國外早已這麼做，也就是我剛剛講的第二個例子，英國這個案例，該名工程師被他們國家列在性犯罪名冊之內！衛福部雖有公布家庭暴力及性侵害電子資料庫管理使用辦法，但這僅是辦法而已，以部長的經驗及部長的法律素養，是不是可以在520之前啟動修法，研擬這個機制的相關作為？我可以在這邊具體建議嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們現在就是在修法，但只針對兒少性剝削條例。剛剛委員提到的是整個性暴力、性侵害犯罪，這部分可能要跟法務部一起來討論。"],["劉委員建國：對，當然請部長邀集他們來做討論，但我說的是在520之前。如果部長覺得我提供這樣的訊息，提供國外的相關資料是有道理的，是不是可以由你來主動提出？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果只有針對兒少的話，在這一次修法過程當中，若大家同意的話就可以把它放進來了，這一個禮拜……"],["劉委員建國：我的建議是這樣，具體將性犯罪者資料做一個統整，同時在法條中也可以明文禁止性犯罪者改名等行為，畢竟這不是單一辦法就可以解決的。"],["薛部長瑞元：是，我的意思就是說，如果針對兒少性剝削，針對兒少這部分的話，我們這一次修法把它放進去是有機會在520之前完成；但如果要把所有性犯罪、性侵害犯罪都納入的話，520之前大概做不到。"],["劉委員建國：最起碼讓部長來啟動，大家一起來討論，可以吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我們可以來討論看看。"],["劉委員建國：好，謝謝。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請黃國昌委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1","speakers":["王育敏","黃捷","蘇清泉","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","陳冠廷","李坤城","許宇甄","沈伯洋","王世堅","陳菁徽","王美惠","王鴻薇","張雅琳","何欣純","范雲","林思銘","林月琴","陳昭姿","廖偉翔","劉建國","黃國昌","林淑芬","陳俊宇","王正旭","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳亭妃","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","李彥秀","蔡易餘","莊瑞雄","楊曜","盧縣一","涂權吉","羅智強","黃仁","沈發惠","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一\n條條文修正草案」案；二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十\n九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案；三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例\n第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案；六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童\n及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之\n一條文草案」案；十一、委員李坤城等 22 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案；十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案；十\n四、委員廖偉翔等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草\n案」案；十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草\n案」案；十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十\n七、委員黃建賓等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草\n案」案；十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修\n正草案」案；十九、委員王世堅等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十、委員陳菁徽等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十\n一、委員王美惠等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二十\n二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員王鴻薇\n等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬\n具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二\n十六、委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委\n員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案；\n二十八、委員劉建國等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n委員柯志恩等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十、委員陳素月\n等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十一、委員范雲等17人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十二、委員林俊憲等21人擬具「兒童及\n少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十三、委員林思銘等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝\n削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十四、委員張雅琳等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條\n例部分條文修正草案」案；三十五、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條\n文修正草案」案；三十六、委員林月琴等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.25034375000000003,"end":1.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.42284375,"end":4.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.03034375,"end":4.283468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.434718750000002,"end":8.907218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.14346875,"end":14.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.52221875,"end":40.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.41284375,"end":47.87159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.922218750000006,"end":52.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.74846875,"end":60.578468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.27034375,"end":90.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.75096875,"end":91.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.54409375,"end":92.42159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.79284375,"end":93.31596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.39596875000001,"end":96.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.23096875,"end":98.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.41221875000001,"end":99.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.44971875,"end":112.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.59971875000001,"end":134.59221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.98034375,"end":145.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.15596875,"end":153.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.69471875000002,"end":168.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.73034375,"end":174.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.83909375000002,"end":175.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.34096875,"end":177.45471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.04534375,"end":179.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.68221875,"end":189.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.94221875000002,"end":198.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.37971875000002,"end":202.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.36221875,"end":203.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.47159375,"end":205.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.93096875,"end":209.71971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.85471875000002,"end":211.00221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.33971875,"end":212.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.84159375000002,"end":214.98471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.69346875000002,"end":217.61721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.88721875000002,"end":222.59534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.98346875000001,"end":226.59471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.67909375000002,"end":234.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.13346875000002,"end":247.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.24971875000003,"end":247.77284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.92034375000003,"end":252.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.75096875000003,"end":255.73784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.46346875,"end":257.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.93159375,"end":258.77534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.10846875000004,"end":260.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.22221875,"end":262.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.65659375,"end":263.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.63096875,"end":265.33971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.48721875,"end":267.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":267.88784375,"end":275.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.88659375000003,"end":276.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.86534375,"end":277.48971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.82721875000004,"end":280.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":281.18534375,"end":287.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.46284375,"end":290.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.31471875,"end":314.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.41221875,"end":321.38159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.95534375,"end":327.79409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.19909375000003,"end":331.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.42221875,"end":334.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":334.78034375000004,"end":335.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.79284375000003,"end":336.214718750000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其中二十九條規定中央檢證主管機關應兼任加害人相片、指紋、去氧、核糖、核酸紀錄及個人基本資料。但是目前就僅性侵害加害人建立資料,所以我要在這邊很具體的建議,要有一個性犯罪的資料庫。"},{"start":361.771,"end":386.243,"text":"現犯罪資料庫包含性剝削等等等這些,在國外早已經有這麼做。就剛剛我講的第二個英國的這個案例,這一個工程師也被他們國家列為性犯罪的名冊之內就對了。所以我希望,那公務部當然有公布一個叫做家庭暴力及性侵害電子資料庫的管理使用辦法,那僅辦法而已啦。"},{"start":388.686,"end":414.501,"text":"所以以部長的經驗、以部長的法律的素養,是不是在委員之前,我可以這邊具以建議嗎?你可以來啟動這個修法研議的這個機制的一個的作為嗎?我們現在就是在修法嘛,但是只針對的是兒少性剝削條例,剛剛委員提到的是整個性暴力性侵害犯罪的,那這個部分的話可能也要"},{"start":415.185,"end":432.484,"text":"跟法務部這邊一起來討論一下。當然要請部長就邀請他們來做看怎樣討論嘛。但是我是說在5年之前這個事情如果部長覺得我提供這樣的訊息提供這樣的一個國內的病人資料是有道理的是不是可以由你來主動的"},{"start":433.907,"end":453.847,"text":"因為如果是只有針對兒少的話,我們這一次修法的過程當中,如果大家同意就可以把他放進來的嘛。這一個禮拜要…我的建議是這樣啦,是據理將性犯罪者要做一個統整啦。對。做一個統整齁,同時在環遙中國也是可以明文禁止性犯罪者改名等行為嘛。"},{"start":454.247,"end":479.095,"text":"所以它不是一個辦法就可以去解決啦。我的意思就是說,如果針對兒少性剝削,對兒少的這個部分的話,我們這一次修法,把它放進去是有機會的,在520之前把它完成。但是如果是要把所有的這種性犯罪、性侵害犯罪的話,可能520之前大概做不到。最起碼讓部長來啟動嘛,開始來討論了嘛,可以吧?"},{"start":482.403,"end":482.704,"text":"好 謝謝主席 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151825","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151825","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e61c4f5af143c1f139054712d423581dcc34e2527b10508eeee5ef2ea4dde02c8b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"10:10:29 - 10:21:22","影片長度":"00:10:53","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月29日及5月2日二天一次會））","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":653,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:21:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:10:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":376,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（10時10分）麻煩請文化部次長。"],["主席：文化部次長，謝謝。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["葉委員元之：次長，最近因為張學友演唱會大家買不到票，引起非常大的民怨，所以黃牛票這個事情，大家應該要重視。但是我看了你們的報告，我覺得你們的報告寫得天花亂墜，跟實務執行有非常大的落差，所以我想問你一下，你到底瞭不瞭解現在執行上遇到的困難？","第一、張學友演唱會，你知道他們總共賣幾萬張出去嗎？你知道嗎？","你不知道？張學友演唱會大家民怨成這樣，你們連這個細項都不知道！"],["王次長時思：我知道我們已經收到122件的檢舉案，也正在就檢舉案在辦……"],["葉委員元之：我問他們賣幾萬張出去，你不要答非所問啦！我跟你講，他們總共9場演唱會分兩次賣，第一次賣前面6場，賣了大概5萬、6萬張，第二次賣後面3場，賣了3萬張，每1場都是秒殺，很多人上去準備要買就買不到了，我想問一下次長，你相信嗎？你相信每一個人都是單純自己要看，所以等在電腦前面，然後一開賣就買不到，你覺得有可能嗎？"],["王次長時思：這就是沒有採實名制很大的缺點……"],["葉委員元之：這跟實名制沒有關係啦！你不要把什麼事情都推給實名制，你有沒有瞭解原因在哪裡，為什麼會這樣？"],["王次長時思：因為有市場，因為有人想要看這個演唱會，造成需求面遠遠大於供給面……"],["葉委員元之：不是，錯！主要就是有掃票機器人，很嚴重嘛！這個掃票機器人在哪裡，你知道嗎？你們之前抓了一個竹科工程師，後來就大肆宣傳，好像什麼業績一樣，實際上，你去看那個竹科工程師，總共就是幾個人用他的那個程式去買而已，真正大尾的抓不到！所以當時你們在發這個新聞的時候，下面網友罵翻了，都說真正的黃牛都抓不到，只會抓這個小的，所以背後到底什麼原因要去瞭解嘛！","我跟你講，實務上，我們也去問了警政機關，比如偵九隊，他們到了那些平臺要去查為什麼有人可以用程式一下子、幾秒鐘把所有的票全部掃完，結果警察到了平臺，平臺說為什麼要配合，除非找司法機關來搜索，否則不配合，實務上就面對到這樣的困難。我不知道你們知不知道這個事情，所以文化部現在要去找那些平臺問清楚，背後到底是誰可以這樣子？有沒有內部的人從中用這個事情在掃票？你們有沒有去瞭解？"],["王次長時思：有，的確，這些平臺願不願意提供這些使用者的帳號、個資的確是一個關鍵，以現在來說，像FB與Dcard，大概就是最不願意提供的，他們也是我們面臨最大的問題……"],["葉委員元之：那就是你要解決的問題嘛！你不是跟我一樣……"],["王次長時思：但是它沒有法律的強制效力。"],["葉委員元之：我們現在是把問題跟你講。次長剛剛一開始根本不瞭解狀況，還在跟我講因為沒有實名制，這跟有沒有實名制有什麼關係……"],["王次長時思：這是嚴重度的原因啦！"],["葉委員元之：而且實名制你也沒有辦法推廣到全部人採用，我們現在就是要解決這個問題，因為是眼前的民怨嘛！所以第一個、請文化部去召集相關的機關，針對這些平臺，到底為什麼一開始掃票機器人可以把票全部掃完了，這個是最大的民怨，要去瞭解，這是第一件事情。第二件事情，我看到你們講，如果是加價轉售，基本上，你們就看一下檢舉人的要件有沒有符合，就直接轉給地方政府，對不對？"],["王次長時思：因為查辦的單位是地方政府。"],["葉委員元之：是地方政府，對，很好！文化部就推給地方政府……"],["王次長時思：不是推，是因為……"],["葉委員元之：那你有沒有去瞭解一下地方政府執行的困難，有沒有？"],["王次長時思：有，我們……"],["葉委員元之：困難在哪裡？"],["王次長時思：包括教育訓練，包括一般的溝通，都一直有在……"],["葉委員元之：教育訓練就是官樣文章。我是問你，你有沒有實際去瞭解地方政府在執行這件事情所遇到的困難？"],["王次長時思：有，地方政府的困難……"],["葉委員元之：地方政府的困難在哪？"],["王次長時思：關鍵仍然是取得當事人的關鍵個資。"],["葉委員元之：你就知道嘛！因為文化部做的事情是最簡單的，你們做的是檢舉人只要有姓名、有資料或者是他有提供FB或LINE的對話，你就覺得完備了，就轉給地方政府……"],["王次長時思：就要下去展開調查。"],["葉委員元之：但是真正困難的是地方政府要去蒐集被檢舉人的資料，那我就問，各縣市政府的文化局有這個調查權嗎？收到這個檢舉案，它只能夠發文給FB或LINE或是發文給平臺，問有沒有相關資料可以提供？可是通常FB、LINE或者平臺根本不會理文化局嘛！它沒有調查權嘛！甚至於他們要去查金流，連金管會也不會理他們……"],["王次長時思：所以我們都有跟金管會……"],["葉委員元之：警察局也不理他們，警察局說，個資的部分只有在12種樣態，比如違反生命安全等等樣態的時候才會提供，所以文化局在前端一開始要去查被檢舉人資料的時候就查不到。對於黃牛，你的報告寫得天花亂墜，說你們有兩千多件，其中600件怎樣、怎樣、怎樣，但具體的困難你們都沒有去協助解決……"],["王次長時思：有，所以我們……"],["葉委員元之：推給地方政府就OK了，文化部那麼好做喔？"],["王次長時思：我們跟這些售票平臺、主辦單位，以及地方政府、警政署都是密切保持聯繫跟溝通。"],["葉委員元之：就是沒有嘛！你現在還要跟我辯這個。"],["王次長時思：有。"],["葉委員元之：我現在告訴你的就是地方政府真實的狀況，很多個縣市政府我都去問了，不用在這邊粉飾太平……"],["王次長時思：我想臺北跟高雄……"],["葉委員元之：你以為你在那邊開個教育訓練，好像長官一樣，過去跟他說你要這樣、你要這樣、你要這樣，他們忽然間就有調查權了嗎？"],["王次長時思：不是，我們是把案件實際的狀況……"],["葉委員元之：現在實際上就是沒有調查權，所以資料取得不了，你要去幫忙解決這個問題嘛！"],["王次長時思：的確文化單位因為不是警政執法單位、不是司法單位，所以在調查權上是沒有，不管是文化部或文化局都是沒有調查權。"],["葉委員元之：所以擺爛嗎？"],["王次長時思：不是，所以我們要透過其他的方式，譬如說……"],["葉委員元之：那你透過什麼方式？"],["王次長時思：關鍵就是取得票號跟票券的位置，我們就可以透過售票平臺來取得。"],["葉委員元之：請問一下，我現在講的就是取得不了，我們現在把實務的困難告訴你，你一直告訴我關鍵是要取得，但現在就是取得不了嘛！"],["王次長時思：就是售票平臺應該可以……"],["葉委員元之：不好意思，文化部，你們是要去解決問題，你要解決問題，你不是跟我們民意代表一樣，在那邊討論這個東西，你要去解決問題，你有公權力……"],["王次長時思：是，我們……"],["葉委員元之：你是文化部，你不是一般的民眾，只會把問題點出來，這個怎樣、這個怎樣、這個怎樣，不是！你要去解決問題。"],["王次長時思：我們會。"],["葉委員元之：我現在問你是你有沒有去解決問題？"],["王次長時思：有，我們會繼續努力。"],["葉委員元之：真的做得不好啦！再來，連檢舉獎金都要地方政府編，對吧？"],["王次長時思：113年開始是由地方政府編列。"],["葉委員元之：然後也沒有讓地方政府增加人嘛！所以他們現在是既有人力在擴編處理這個事嘛！","再來，問你一個問題，有一個標案我覺得非常奇怪，112年有一個黃牛檢舉及法律質詢專案辦公室的標案，一年的金額是800萬，今年跟明年編列1,500萬，請問一下這個標案是要做什麼內容？"],["王次長時思：就是現在我們針對黃牛案件的巡查、分案、案件的分析、樣態的分析，還有法律意見的提供這個功能。"],["葉委員元之：這需要1,500萬喔？"],["王次長時思：Total有18個月……"],["葉委員元之：分案我剛才已經講了，你的分案只是把有檢舉人的資料或者是他有提供FB、LINE的對話，你就轉給地方政府了，這個需要1,500萬去做？"],["王次長時思：還是要逐項檢視，這還是需要很大的人力。"],["葉委員元之：我問過地方政府，他說，通常你們就是這樣分過來了啦！"],["王次長時思：沒有，我們是逐項檢視，因為……"],["葉委員元之：逐項檢視需要那麼多錢喔？"],["王次長時思：我們提供……"],["葉委員元之：地方政府都沒有另外編預算，為什麼文化部要另外編？"],["王次長時思：整個分案跟巡查跟基礎資料調查有沒有完備是由文化部來做。"],["葉委員元之：對，但是第一個，案件不多，第二個，處理的事情也不多……"],["王次長時思：沒有，兩千多件案件都是從文化部……"],["葉委員元之：為什麼要800萬，還要1,500萬？這個非常奇怪，還是用最有利標，為什麼？為什麼是用最有利標？"],["王次長時思：因為這個案子的型態很重要的是法律的背景，所以我們希望是法律……"],["葉委員元之：所以只有特定律師可以做，其他律師不能做，對不對？所以要用最有利標？"],["王次長時思：不是特定律師，應該是說有經驗、知道、參與提供法律……"],["葉委員元之：有經驗，那怎樣有經驗由文化部來決定嘛！我們來看一下上次得標的廠商是誰，這個叫做長慧律師事務所，這個律師事務所在說明的地方直接講，因為袁律師大學時代參加謝長廷律師的新文化研習營等等，我很少看到律師事務所介紹自己跟謝長廷的關係。我們來看一下這個得標廠商的主要經歷，臺北市法務局長、不當黨產處理委員會的委員，所以這樣的案子，第一個，我聽不出來它需要1,500萬來做，第二個……"],["王次長時思：它是18個月，一年半。"],["葉委員元之：一年半，好一年半，上一次是一年嘛！"],["王次長時思：而且有9位人員。"],["葉委員元之：一年800萬嘛！"],["王次長時思：上次只有10個月。"],["葉委員元之：10個月、800萬，就次長剛剛講的內容，我不知道為什麼要花800萬來做，真的不知道，我打一個大問號，請你具體提供這800萬所服務的項目。"],["王次長時思：好。"],["葉委員元之：第二個，為什麼最有利標的得標廠商剛好就跟謝長廷很有關係，還是不當黨產處理委員會的委員啊？"],["王次長時思：我想這是在他個人的介紹裡面，我們並不是因為這個理由啦！"],["葉委員元之：不是，那是什麼理由？"],["王次長時思：主要還是因為專業……"],["葉委員元之：當然你會講別的理由啊！但是為什麼是最有利標，然後剛好又是他得標？"],["王次長時思：有兩家投標，公開評選，這個是公開招標啦！，已經有兩家投標了，目前還在公開……"],["葉委員元之：那為什麼是最有利標嘛？"],["王次長時思：用最有利標的原因是因為它有特殊條件，就是有法律背景，這只是最有利標設定的條件而已，但是還是會公開徵選……"],["葉委員元之：請你會後提供這一個所謂的800萬，到底這個廠商做哪些服務？"],["王次長時思：包括電話……"],["葉委員元之：因為就我的瞭解，分案或是什麼提供法律見解這些內容，不需要到800萬，然後得標廠商又是跟民進黨這麼好的人，外界都會提出質疑，而且今年你還增加預算，直接變成……"],["王次長時思：因為服務時間變長了。"],["葉委員元之：對，那為什麼變長？為什麼拉長？那會不會又是同一家得標？你是不是減少他得標的成本，讓他一次標到可以做比較久？"],["王次長時思：還在公開招標當中。"],["葉委員元之：沒關係，我們最後來看是誰得標嘛！文化部今天報告講一大堆，但是實務面執行問題這麼多，你們要去解決問題，不是在跟我分析問題，要解決問題，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝葉元之委員。","接下來請郭昱晴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","范雲","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","黃珊珊","黃捷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","邱志偉","張啓楷","羅智強","林倩綺","林楚茵","劉建國"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列\n席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.4697187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.180968750000002,"end":13.395968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.649093750000002,"end":14.813468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.117218750000003,"end":16.450343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.449718750000002,"end":21.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.12471875,"end":21.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.95159375,"end":44.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.985968750000005,"end":45.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.42034375,"end":46.673468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.97284375,"end":52.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.149718750000005,"end":50.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.12409375,"end":56.477843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.30096875,"end":78.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.95534375000001,"end":81.11534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.35159375,"end":83.83221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.12346875,"end":89.26596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.95784375000001,"end":90.76784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.07596875,"end":96.15096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.69971875,"end":96.37034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.84284375,"end":102.78284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.62659375000001,"end":131.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.14534375,"end":140.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.92034375,"end":145.05471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.27409375000002,"end":148.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.88534375,"end":153.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.96471875,"end":154.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.40346875,"end":154.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.72409375,"end":157.84596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.35221875000002,"end":160.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.90034375000002,"end":163.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.68471875,"end":164.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.27096875,"end":166.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.77284375000002,"end":168.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.32534375,"end":180.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.85534375,"end":189.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.60596875000002,"end":183.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.55409375000002,"end":191.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.83659375000002,"end":215.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.69346875000002,"end":220.24971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.50284375,"end":222.08909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.75159375,"end":226.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.50221875000003,"end":225.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.06721875000002,"end":227.70846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.70846875,"end":228.45096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.53534375,"end":228.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.55221875,"end":231.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.45471875,"end":239.62221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.12034375000002,"end":242.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.82846875,"end":254.84346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.48909375000002,"end":255.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.94471875000002,"end":263.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.44534375,"end":267.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.30971875,"end":284.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.64471875000004,"end":287.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.01596875,"end":311.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.02034375,"end":318.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.20909375,"end":340.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.57909375,"end":328.48596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.46409375,"e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Line對話．轉給地方政府．需要1500萬去做．"},{"start":465.888,"end":484.959,"text":"整個分案跟巡查跟基礎資料調查有沒有完備是文化部這邊來的嗎對 但是第一個案件不多第二個處理的事情也不多為什麼要800萬還有1500萬這個非常奇怪那我們再來看一下上一次還是用最有力標為什麼"},{"start":487.296,"end":498.471,"text":"為甚麼是用最有利標?因為這個案子的形態大概有很大的很重要的是法律的背景所以只有特定律師可以做對不對其他律師不能做所以要最有利標應該是說有經驗知道有經驗的"},{"start":502.216,"end":502.516,"text":"臺北市法務局長"},{"start":529.381,"end":548.092,"text":"然後不當黨產處理委員會的委員所以這樣子一個案子第一個我聽不出來說他需要有1500萬來做他是18個月一年半一年半對好一年半上一次是一年嘛一年800萬嘛上次只有10個月一年800萬嘛上次10個月10個月800萬就次長剛剛講的內容我不知道為什麼要花800萬來做啦真的不知道我打一個大問號請你具體提供這800萬他服務的項目"},{"start":560.04,"end":584,"text":"2.為什麼最有利標的得標廠商剛好就是跟謝長廷很有關係還是不當當場處理委員會的委員啊?我想這是大家個人的介紹裡面我們並不是因為這個理由啦不是那是什麼理由?當然你會講別的理由啊但是為什麼是最有利標然後剛好要他得標?有兩家投標公開評選這個是公開招標啦已經有兩家投標了目前還在公開那為什麼是最有利標嘛?"},{"start":586.783,"end":588.184,"text":"請你會後提供這一個所謂的800萬到底這個廠商做了哪些服務"},{"start":601.934,"end":621.35,"text":"因為就我的了解（包括電話接聽（對,就我的了解（這個所謂的八百萬的內容（分案這些（或者是什麼提供法律見解（不需要到八百萬（不需要到八百萬（然後得標廠商就是跟民進黨這麼好的人（這個外界都會提出質疑（而且今年你還增加預算（直接變成（因為時間變（對,那為什麼變長了（為什麼要拉長（那會不會就是同一家得標（"},{"start":626.4,"end":627.581,"text":"謝謝葉元之委員接下來我們請郭育晴委員"}]}},{"id":"151824","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151824","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6dc0aa23962b8c8d4656dd8af69baafbe34e2527b10508eee94885ffc673e66ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:09:50 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有請主委"},{"start":10.638,"end":33.516,"text":"主委早安主委早好 那個時間因素我今天就迅速謝謝毛委員剛剛臨時跟我調換順序那第一個就是我想問一下就是跟這一個容家床位有關的因為這一個目前我們看到這一個16個容家那這個他想在新聞裡面有講到尤其是彰化容家現在已經出現滿床的一個現象"},{"start":34.216,"end":34.896,"text":"主委講到15%目前我們達到16.48%開放1448床"},{"start":63.812,"end":65.133,"text":"為什麼這樣問 最主要也是因為之前他就說這個互併比"},{"start":83.662,"end":102.552,"text":"雖然我們現在是希望能夠像剛剛講的讓一般的也可以來做使用但因為這個互併筆在高雄台北跟台中榮總之類這個互併筆看起來好像還是被認為說這個互併筆有點不太合乎常理那不知道這一個方面有沒有可能有一些目前改善的方向"},{"start":104.469,"end":128.423,"text":"因為這畢竟已經一陣子了嘛所以我們想要知道現在的報告委員我是九一保健處處長詹仁義有關於護病比我們就是配合國家的政策那因為人力的關係確實是有困難那現在目前我們是三班的護病比全日都已經有符合標準但是有關於尤其是夜班現在也是說積極在招募人員在努力當中都配合國家的政策"},{"start":129.323,"end":152.015,"text":"希望就是說這邊我寫的就是希望退輔會能夠積極幫忙因為畢竟說真的現在大家這個不管是我們之前在國防部的時候現在發現也有很多的一些軍官他們壓力也是過大業務過度繁重那一樣的在這個醫院也會有一模一樣的問題如果退輔會能夠幫他們做一些協助的話希望是能夠幫他們改善一下不然的話以工作時長來講說真的可能會有壓力過大的問題"},{"start":153.315,"end":179.037,"text":"那接下來我想問一下這上次我追問的就是質押探索的部分那我不問滿我先往下就是因為之前有提到這個自辦訓練啊委外訓練啊等等的一個狀況那上次因為我有先直接有問你們會面以後在辦公室裡面有問就是關於這個質押探索這個部分因為我看到他有15個場次450人我想先問一下質押探索他是一定要參加的還是是說就是他自願參加"},{"start":180.902,"end":184.907,"text":"執照探索營是由軍方報名篩選相關人員以後提供給本會做三天兩夜的執照探索營"},{"start":196.5,"end":213.359,"text":"因為我個人認為,因為我之前也有問過會內,就是我覺得指教探索員的幫助應該會蠻大的。那為什麼會這樣子講呢?是因為他越了解這個市場,他也越早能夠做準備。因為我們很多時候是,譬如說在軍中裡面他有各式各樣的技能,那當然現在技能到底能不能夠先接社會這個我待會再說。"},{"start":214.4,"end":237.733,"text":"但是現在就是說他即使有這個技能他不知道應用在哪裡所以不知道有沒有可能讓我知道質押探索可能這樣聽起來要花費的預算應該也會是蠻多的但是顯然質押探索贏的如果他是幫助比較大的是不是可能有一些不管是問卷等等之類的讓譬如說我們知道他的效能有多高那這方面如果能夠去爭取更多的預算的話我覺得反而是重要的"},{"start":238.453,"end":267.733,"text":"是希望說在接下來因為我們下個會期要進入預算會期了就這一個方面我覺得質押探索應該是一個重點是不是可以去討論它的成效如何是那另外一個就是這邊我寫到的就是因為在這一個我看到這個重返職場這一個部分澳洲的部分它有強制參加是三天那美國不是強制參加但它時程比較長那但是現在問題就是說因為我看美國的數據他說它有80%他們在軍中學的可以直接做銜接"},{"start":269.078,"end":270.952,"text":"我們是不是也能夠朝這個目標前進?"},{"start":271.761,"end":275.703,"text":"是謝謝委員好簡單的來講我們現在就是為什麼只有三天那最主要我們要配合國防部因為國防部他還是以戰訓本務為主所以我們目前只能夠三天那我現在已經從300人一年300人增加到450人好那我們會持續再去跟國防部來協商那當然最重要我們的職埃的一個重返職場上面的一個成效呢我們不斷的一樣我們是站在"},{"start":299.695,"end":313.018,"text":"官兵的一個需求其實我們的目標希望他在軍中所學能夠就是順利運用到退後的職場所以在過去一段時間我們也跟國防部在希望能夠盤點他在軍中的職能的發展能夠跟民間職場能夠對接讓他在軍中的一個所學順利再回到職場上面人力資源再繼續發揮"},{"start":324.42,"end":329.584,"text":"目前其實當然國防部他有一些困難還是以戰訓本務的問題還有一些預算的問題那我們其實都有不斷在跟他們協商希望我們至少現在還沒有做這個軍職職能的對接民間職場的一個對接之前那我們這邊就有職癌的適性憑良職癌之商來協助他們退了以後然後讓他盤點他適合從事哪個方業我給他就學執訓就業這樣子的一個建議"},{"start":354.324,"end":374.999,"text":"我們現在已經在持續的努力當中好 那就希望是跟國防部多談因為畢竟這個是跟國防部要互相協作的那我們在跟國防部溝通的時候也是因為國防部現在有時候有些官兵他們的業務量也實在太大了他能夠把這個拿掉然後做一些更適性的一些發展我相信這個陳永康委員他也有一整套的計畫就是說我們要怎麼讓他訓練到真的有用的東西"},{"start":377.521,"end":397.949,"text":"以及這些東西能不能夠讓他協助跟民間銜接那國防部那一方面在改的時候希望退輔會也是可以多跟他們討論那為什麼我會提到這一點也是因為上次我們有提到這一個退休的軍官他們常常會被中國接觸然後接觸了之後又再接觸現役的軍人那這個部分他成為中間人的時候其實會有很多的問題嘛"},{"start":398.949,"end":425.09,"text":"那時候我們在討論修法的時候也是因為這個修法不只是要動到退輔會相關的它其實最主要也是要動到現在的官兵所以我們在剛好是上個禮拜還是上上禮拜的時候國防部也有來跟我們討論這樣的一個法案就是說如果這個東西真的要修比如說它今天違反反滲透法或者承認相關的法令它今天這個退休縫可能是會遭受到限制以外更重要的事情是它其實應該一體的讓現役軍人也能夠用"},{"start":428.112,"end":456.634,"text":"所以這方面的草案呢我們是兩個都送出去了我們不是只有針對退休的我們是整體的現役的我們也送出相關的草案然後退休的我們也送出相關的草案讓他可以一體適用所以呢但是因為像在討論這些法案的同時說真的蠻需要兩邊互相協調的所以呢希望說在之後呢我們在應該還會再動一些相關的法令但可能已經跟懲罰無關反而是跟就業等等有關的他需要兩邊的協調嗎那希望我們在座的時候呢我們不只是跟退輔會溝通"},{"start":457.555,"end":483.696,"text":"國防部在同時間也可以一起來那這樣的話呢我們在討論相關要怎麼去做體制上的跟制度上的改變的時候一定會變得比較容易齁那也在這邊跟主委報告一下好的謝謝那這個這個我們不好意思講掉了這樣應該OK齁所以呢那就先這個樣子齁這是我們提出的跟國安法相關的修正那退輔的條例那邊的我們也已經送出來了那但是畢竟只是送出去而已之後可能還要進入到這邊要逐條啊等等之類的"},{"start":484.396,"end":492.484,"text":"希望你們對於這些法條有什麼意見的話能夠提早做準備然後我們就可以在除條的時候再來看到底要做什麼一些細部的微調"}]}},{"id":"151823","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151823","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6087834199dac635d055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eee468a1eea278b59595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"10:10:49 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10:17:33","影片長度":"00:06:44","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":404,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:17:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:10:49+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["廖委員偉翔：（10時11分）謝謝主席。有請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長好。今天是兒少性剝削防制條例法案的答詢，在進行修法討論之前，我想請教部長，我國在2014年的時候，有將兒童權利公約（CRC）國內法化；在2017年跟2022年的國際審查時，國際審查委員也曾針對兒少性剝削相關的議題，要求我國政府將「關於買賣兒童、兒童賣淫和兒童色情問題之兒童權利公約任擇議定書」國內法化，並於結論性意見明確指出，建議政府制定一個綜合性的政策，包括CRC一般性原則的執行，以防止對兒少的買賣及性剝削；在2022年第二次國際審查時，監察院的人權會也已建議政府針對「關於買賣兒童、兒童賣淫和兒童色情問題之兒童權利公約任擇議定書」進行國家整體性政策盤點，並鼓勵政府接受上揭議定書。想要請教部長，從2022年第二次的國際審查到現在也過了一年多了，現在我們OPSC的立法進度為何？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們雖然沒有一個叫作什麼議定書的國內法，就是說沒有這樣的一個名字，但是事實上其國內法就是在兒童性剝削防制條例。"],["廖委員偉翔：是！我想沒有錯，就是我們現在有此條例在做，但我想要講的事情是在OPSC的第五條和第六條也有談到所謂的引渡問題，像這次的色情網站、創意私房的主謀老馬，到現在還抓不到人，因為他也可能是潛逃在境外，對不對？我想要請問面對這樣的問題，如果我們提早跟國際接軌及法制作業完成，會不會有助於我們防範未來的引渡問題？防範這些罪犯逃去國外？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分，第一個把它國內法化，我們現在已經做了，就是兒少性剝削條例，但引渡是另外一個司法互助的問題。如果有關於引渡的話，必須有國跟國之間簽訂合作的意願，引渡跟司法互助在程度上又有一些不太一樣。"],["廖委員偉翔：當然，但是這個議定書裡面其實有寫到，如果我們提早把法制作業做好，我們是不是比較有機會跟他們……"],["薛部長瑞元：委員也知道我們國家在全世界政治國際關係上有一些困難，關於引渡是不是委員問一下法務部可能會更清楚一點？"],["廖委員偉翔：好，那我們下一題。請問部長到目前為止，有沒有收到今年WHA的正式邀請函？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前還沒有。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，今年有哪一些國家已經表態願意希望幫助我們臺灣恢復世界衛生大會裡面的觀察員地位？"],["薛部長瑞元：有一些國家已經正式的由官方提出他們的態度，這些國家仍然在增加當中。"],["廖委員偉翔：請問有掌握哪些國家嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前我沒有全部都掌握住，因為這個是外交部也努力在做的事情。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，我想部長對此，美國國會一向也支持我們加入，包括2019年及2022年的眾議院、2021年的參議院，他們都有透過法案表態支持我國加入，但是今年呢？今年美方有沒有任何的具體行動或是對外公開的宣稱，希望我國可以加入？"],["薛部長瑞元：到目前我所掌握到的，好像還沒有一個非常正式用法案來做支持的狀態，不過，可能外交部會比較清楚。"],["廖委員偉翔：部長，當一天和尚敲一天鐘，WHA跟衛福部也是有相當大的關係，所以我是希望這部分，您是不是可以持續地、積極地再去推動？","再來部長，準總統賴清德具有醫師背景，所以他也是第一位醫師總統，能不能參加WHA對我們的象徵意義也很大，立法院韓院長也請我們的江副院長帶隊參加，就是希望能夠把我國的民意帶進萬國宮。請教部長，今年和往年你們宣達活動會有什麼不一樣的地方嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：宣達活動的方式可能差異並沒有很大，但是內容會有一些不一樣。"],["廖委員偉翔：請問會有什麼不一樣？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個內容主要就是，因為今年WHA主要討論一個叫作Pandemic Agreement，也就是防疫上一個大的協議內容，這一個協議可能是WHA今年希望能夠通過，在這個協議的裡面，有一個部分叫作除了會員國之外，可以設觀察員。我們仍然努力在爭取成為WHA的觀察員，但是對Pandemic Agreement的觀察員，我們希望能夠另外爭取，因為這個跟全球防疫也相關，臺灣可以貢獻這方面的力量。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，謝謝部長。最後一個很快速的問題，因為你任期大約剩下20天，請問你有沒有具體的事項，在這20天可以完成的，舉幾個例？"],["薛部長瑞元：今天的這一案，我希望在20天內能夠完成。"],["廖委員偉翔：好，所以謝謝部長，希望今天可以完成，變成你的畢業代表作，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝廖偉翔委員。","接下來我們請劉建國委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1","speakers":["王育敏","黃捷","蘇清泉","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","陳冠廷","李坤城","許宇甄","沈伯洋","王世堅","陳菁徽","王美惠","王鴻薇","張雅琳","何欣純","范雲","林思銘","林月琴","陳昭姿","廖偉翔","劉建國","黃國昌","林淑芬","陳俊宇","王正旭","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳亭妃","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","李彥秀","蔡易餘","莊瑞雄","楊曜","盧縣一","涂權吉","羅智強","黃仁","沈發惠","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一\n條條文修正草案」案；二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十\n九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案；三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例\n第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案；六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童\n及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之\n一條文草案」案；十一、委員李坤城等 22 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案；十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案；十\n四、委員廖偉翔等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草\n案」案；十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草\n案」案；十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十\n七、委員黃建賓等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草\n案」案；十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修\n正草案」案；十九、委員王世堅等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十、委員陳菁徽等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十\n一、委員王美惠等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二十\n二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員王鴻薇\n等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬\n具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二\n十六、委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委\n員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案；\n二十八、委員劉建國等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n委員柯志恩等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十、委員陳素月\n等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十一、委員范雲等17人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十二、委員林俊憲等21人擬具「兒童及\n少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十三、委員林思銘等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝\n削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十四、委員張雅琳等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條\n例部分條文修正草案」案；三十五、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條\n文修正草案」案；三十六、委員林月琴等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.437843750000003,"end":17.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.03659375,"end":18.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.402843750000002,"end":31.40159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.07659375,"end":57.321593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.59159375,"end":60.190343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.66284375,"end":68.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.04971875000001,"end":71.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.64846875,"end":76.05284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.47471875000001,"end":96.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.30284375000001,"end":101.97284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.05284375000001,"end":108.19971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.57096875,"end":122.37471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.84721875000001,"end":127.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.75784375,"end":128.88846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.49596875,"end":155.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.04034375,"end":160.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.18721875,"end":180.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.01534375,"end":186.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.61784375000002,"end":194.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.60409375,"end":209.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.71784375000001,"end":195.13971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.46221875,"end":212.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.31846875000002,"end":218.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.66346875000002,"end":218.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.79846875,"end":218.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.93346875,"end":218.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.30471875,"end":222.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.08471875,"end":228.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.51846875,"end":242.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.03534375,"end":242.32221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.55846875,"end":244.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.24596875,"end":245.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.76471875000001,"end":252.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.97034375,"end":270.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.63409375000003,"end":284.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.04971875,"end":297.30096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.65534375000004,"end":298.49909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.52846875,"end":312.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.91034375000004,"end":315.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.27284375,"end":320.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.28034375000004,"end":321.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.52909375,"end":329.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.46034375000005,"end":340.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.47721875,"end":331.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.73721875,"end":343.89284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":344.29784375,"end":357.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":358.25346875,"end":360.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.64534375,"end":362.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.01221875000005,"end":363.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.26096875,"end":381.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.27096875,"end":389.82659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":390.16409375,"end":390.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.24846875000003,"end":391.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.41284375000004,"end":395.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.17596875000004,"end":399.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":399.56346875,"end":400.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.38596875,"end":403.41096875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":15.481,"end":19.182,"text":"好,謝謝主席。有請薛部長。好,請薛部長。部長好。今天是兒少性剝削法的法案的答詢。那在進行這個修法討論之前,我想請教部長,因為我國在2014年的時候有將這個兒童權利公約的國內法化,那在2017年跟2022年的時候,在國際審查時,國際審查委員也曾就"},{"start":45.409,"end":70.741,"text":"這個針對兒少性剝削相關的議題要求我國政府將關於買賣兒童、兒童賣淫和兒童色情問題之兒童權利公約認責議定書國內法化並在結論性的時候意見也明確指出建議我們的政府要制定一個綜合性的政策包括CRC一般性原則的執行以防止對兒少的買賣及性剝削"},{"start":71.761,"end":94.822,"text":"那在2022年的時候的第二次國際審查時這個監察院的人權會也已建議政府針對關於買賣兒童跟兒童賣淫的這幾個事情的這個權利公約日的議定書進行國家整體性的政策盤點然後並鼓勵我們的政府接受這個議定書那想要請教部長2022年"},{"start":96.363,"end":122.162,"text":"第二次的國際審查到現在也過了一年多了。現在我們這個OPSC的立法進度為何?這個其實我們雖然沒有一個叫做這一個這個什麼什麼議定書的什麼國內就是說沒有一個這樣的名字但是事實上他的國內法法就是在這個兒童性剝削的防制條例啦"},{"start":122.941,"end":127.879,"text":"是我想沒有錯就是我們現在有這個條例在做但是我想要講的事情是在這個"},{"start":129.48,"end":155.981,"text":""},{"start":156.081,"end":160.21,"text":"防範未來的引渡問題,就是防範這些罪犯在逃去國外,"},{"start":161.563,"end":185.933,"text":"這個部分第一個把它國內法化我們現在已經做就是兒童、兒少性剝削條例但是引渡那是另外一個司法互助的問題司法互助的問題如果有關於引渡的話必須有國跟國之間的一個簽訂的一個合作的一個意願那引渡跟司法互助又有一些程度上面的不太一樣"},{"start":186.653,"end":191.015,"text":"委員知道說我們國家在這個全世界在這個正式的國際的一些關係上面的話的一些困難那關於引渡可能是委員問一下法務部會更清楚一點"},{"start":210.489,"end":228.082,"text":"好,那我們下一題。請問部長喔,到目前為止有沒有收到WHA今年的正式邀請函?目前還沒有。那部長今年有哪一些國家已經表態願意希望幫助我們台灣恢復在世界衛生的大會裡面的觀察員地位?"},{"start":229.183,"end":252.501,"text":"有一些國家它已經正式的由他們的官方來提出他們的這個態度。這些國家仍然在增加當中。目前我沒有全部都掌握住,因為這個是外交部也在努力在做的一個事情。"},{"start":252.998,"end":270.814,"text":"好,我想部長這裡美國國會一向也支持我們加入,包括2019年、2022年的眾議院、2021年的參議院,他們都有透過法案表態支持我國加入。但是今年呢,今年美方有沒有任何的具體行動或是對於外公開的宣稱,希望我國可以加入?"},{"start":272.453,"end":298.12,"text":"我所掌握到的到目前好像還沒有一個非常正式用法案來做支持的這樣子的狀態不過這可能外交部會比較清楚所以我是想部長因為當一天和尚橋天宗我想這WHA跟我們衛福部也是有相當大的關係所以我是希望這部分您是不是可以持續的積極的再去推動再來部長"},{"start":300.265,"end":320.6,"text":"準總統賴清德具有醫師背景,所以他也是第一位醫師總統,能不能參加這個WHA對我們的象徵意義也很大。我們立法院韓院長也請我們的江副院長帶隊參加,就是希望能夠把我國的民意帶進這個萬國宮。請教部長,今年和往年你們宣達活動會有沒有什麼不一樣的地方嗎?"},{"start":322.651,"end":343.062,"text":"宣打的活動的方式可能差異並沒有說很大,但是內容會有一些不一樣。請問會有什麼不一樣?這個內容主要就是說因為今年WHA主要要討論一個叫做Pandemic Agreement,也就是說防疫的一個大的一個協議。"},{"start":347.386,"end":360.497,"text":"這個協議今年可能是WHA希望就能夠通過了。在這個協議的裡面有一個部分叫做可以除了會員國之外的話,可以設觀察員。"},{"start":361.678,"end":380.94,"text":"那我們希望在這部分WHA的觀察員我們努力也是在能仍然在爭取但是對這個Pandemic Agreement的觀察員我們另外要希望能夠爭取因為這個跟全球的防疫有相關的台灣可以貢獻這方面的力量"},{"start":381.32,"end":400.319,"text":"好 謝謝部長最後一個很快速的問題因為你任期大約剩下20天請問你有沒有具體的事項在這20天你可以完成的舉個例今天的這一個我需要就是在20天內能夠完成好 謝謝所以謝謝部長希望今天可以完成讓變成你的畢業代表作謝謝好 謝謝廖偉強委員"}]}},{"id":"151822","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151822","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6d3fb8caddc03311c12d28fff7690636534e2527b10508eee9930f9bb5cf0ddfa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"10:06:15 - 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厲害啦"},{"start":348.016,"end":356.5,"text":"厲害啦然後高永成就去追殺成敗的檢察官破釜再破釜厲害再厲害超級無敵強林志堅的論文案全國老百姓不要講全國老百姓你們偉大的民進黨在檢討敗選計畫整個敗選計畫只提到一個名字叫做林志堅"},{"start":375.996,"end":399.163,"text":"所有敗選責任就是林志堅的抄襲連你的民進黨大民進黨都不敢幫林志堅背書你偉大的高永成你去追殺余政煌論文被剽竊的受害者世上之無恥沒有到這種地步的就發生在高永成身上我告訴你今天我會做臨時提案很簡單"},{"start":406.124,"end":421.457,"text":"你們監察院有紀律委員會吧有紀律委員會對不對放著高永成這個東廠紀律委員會也不會處理啦我知道啦沒有關係我們立法院齁今天為民喉舌我今天就提一個臨時提案"},{"start":422.503,"end":440.268,"text":"我知道你也不會做啦但是我們要跟選民交代啦我會臨時提案拜託你們監察院回去齁把這個高永成齁好好研究要不要送到紀律委員會啦沒關係我幫你講答案啦我來回答我今天是李金宇幫你回答啦做不到啦做不到啦做不到啦"},{"start":441.696,"end":444.797,"text":"監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案案"},{"start":469.495,"end":471.98,"text":"監察院還很東廠阿很強阿現在跑去查侯友宜35年前的舊案你去查好棒棒阿"},{"start":481.909,"end":508.298,"text":"好棒棒啦陳忠彥這麼明顯的敗壞關真你那11個監察員直接去跳樓算了啦連彈劾都不敢丟臉至丟臉到這種程度無以復加不敢打老虎不敢打蒼蠅老鼠屎也不敢打只會清算不同意見的人這種監察院廢到極點東廠到極點"}]}},{"id":"151821","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151821","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6b7f04736784e1d1f055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eee8cba3367f770e7f65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"10:03:11 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10:10:47","影片長度":"00:07:36","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":456,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:10:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:03:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":709,"blocks":[["林委員月琴：（10時3分）有請部長、內政部警政署斯副組長以及司法院家事廳謝靜慧廳長。"],["主席：好，以上官員請上臺。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["林委員月琴：部長辛苦了！我認為即使路肩罰得再重，如果沒有人去抓的話，罰五萬也沒有用，所以我剛剛講創意私房10年了，觸感空間也是9年之後才被抓到。就我來看，當初修正時也是在你任內，過去就是分工不明，執行了1年，你覺得這個東西有改變嗎？事實上，第三條的規定非常鬆，就是內政、法務、教育、國防、文化、經濟、勞動、交通及NCC這些單位要做防制教育宣導，而不是明定清楚，執行1年以來，你覺得其他部會配合的狀況如何？"],["薛部長瑞元：說實在的，這中間的訊息傳遞或者是對個案整體去做處理的速度還是有一點落後。"],["林委員月琴：對，警察局接獲報案的時候，到底有沒有通知影像中心？就我所知有些時候是沒有的。衛福部發文的時候，有沒有通知數發部處理？而且網路犯罪的部分到底是誰的責任？就是大家都有責任，好像最後就是大家都沒有責任。部長，如果把它定清楚的話，我覺得對主管機關是不是會更有幫助？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該會有一部分的幫助。"],["林委員月琴：我覺得前面如果不阻斷的話，你後面罰得再重，就像我剛剛講路肩罰五萬塊，如果沒有人去抓的話，那五萬塊事實上形同虛設。同樣地，當初方向上也看得到，訂了這麼多主管機關，針對網路內容，包括防護機構、主管機關或警察單位或其他機關都可以去做，結果最後就是人人都有責任，可是卻沒有人負責，所以我希望還是主管機關自己扛起責任來，請問部長這樣有沒有什麼太大的問題？"],["薛部長瑞元：這等於是一個通知，主管機關知道有的話，要先去做這一些部分，就是說委員建議的是這個樣子，但是事實上，有時候發現者，也就是民眾也許有檢舉，檢舉的對象不一定直接是到衛福部來。"],["林委員月琴：是，所以有的時候是在警政單位，可是我覺得還是應該由主管機關去做這件事情。","問題二就是整個案件偵查的資源不足，處處碰壁，因為沒錢、沒人、沒專責單位、沒溝通、沒共享、沒決心，為什麼警政單位碰到的……所以我們的修法方向是這樣。我想請教警政署，因為你們的回復裡面說做不到，可是今天如果一個影像被移除之後，他的影像還是到處在散播，一個申訴人知道某一個YT裡面有他的影像，如果只移除那個的話，其他的還是散播在外邊，所以為什麼我們要有這樣的資料庫？衛福部事實上是做不到，因為警政單位才有權限，衛福部沒有。譬如影像當中有車號或者是有些姓名，你們要去查核的話，事實上是相對比較容易，可是我提出這個問題的時候，你們回復的是說沒有辦法。不過國外已經有這樣技術，想當初黃子佼這個案子是一萬多筆查扣之後，因為很熱心的警員一筆一筆人工核對，然後才核對出有7部未成年的影片，因為他過去有查創意私房，所以他才有辦法知道去做這樣的查核，他有印象，所以為什麼要有專責單位？可是今天警政署竟然會說沒有辦法，荷蘭已經有這樣的技術，給Hash比對之後很快地就去查核，而不是一萬多筆靠一個很熱心的警員大量地用他私人的時間來比對，然後查出這7部影片，其實前提也是因為他過去有偵獲臺北市的N號房，所以他才有印象，然後才會去查對。請警政署說明。"],["斯副組長儀仙：謝謝委員。在此向委員報告，警政單位職司犯罪偵查，當然重點是在確認這些犯罪的行為，然後找到犯罪嫌疑人，但現在委員是建議對於被害人的性影像要建立資料庫，重點應該是在被害人的保護。跟委員報告，如果是要被害人的保護的話，可能要回到主管機關……"],["林委員月琴：可是就權限而言，事實上你們比衛福部有權限去做比對跟查核，所以我們才會有所期待。","最後就是司法院，我們提出三日內的部分，就是影像已經移除之後，為了完備的法律程序，司法院回復的是說沒辦法，我不知道謝廳長有何看法？"],["謝廳長靜慧：不知道委員說的是哪個部分？"],["林委員月琴：就是在你們的報告裡面，針對我所提出來的三日內。"],["謝廳長靜慧：委員是指第四十七條的部分嗎？"],["林委員月琴：是，第四十七條。"],["謝廳長靜慧：這個部分要跟委員說明一下，如果要讓法院就這個部分下一個緊急的資訊限制令，我們是考量按照兒少性剝削防制條例，大概都是行政先行……"],["林委員月琴：對，行政先行，可是不會像你們所講的緩不濟急，先停止解析之後才於三日內再補程序，這有困難嗎？"],["謝廳長靜慧：主要是如果要法院去做這樣的資訊限制令，在目前的體系上面，通常大概都會是跟人身自由有相關的……"],["林委員月琴：因為上次質詢的時候，衛福部薛部長說他們當時請數發部去停止解析的時候，事實上法律程序不完備，所以我們才會補一條，不知道為什麼司法院會覺得沒辦法執行？"],["謝廳長靜慧：跟委員報告，其實先前我們跟衛福部就聯防四法，針對數位性暴力的部分已經有一個共識，大概就是用行政端的一個積極有效的……"],["林委員月琴：所以你覺得行政端就可以了，不用到司法院這邊嗎？"],["謝廳長靜慧：其實這樣才會有效率，針對網路，如果還要經過司法、法院的審查……先前針對家暴法的部分，其實也有很多跟衛福部的溝通，譬如以保護令來說，法院要去考量這個部分，其實都需要一些調查的時間，其實這樣的效果是有限的……"],["主席：關於更細節的部分，我們到逐條的時候再來探討，好不好？"],["林委員月琴：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1","speakers":["王育敏","黃捷","蘇清泉","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","陳冠廷","李坤城","許宇甄","沈伯洋","王世堅","陳菁徽","王美惠","王鴻薇","張雅琳","何欣純","范雲","林思銘","林月琴","陳昭姿","廖偉翔","劉建國","黃國昌","林淑芬","陳俊宇","王正旭","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳亭妃","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","李彥秀","蔡易餘","莊瑞雄","楊曜","盧縣一","涂權吉","羅智強","黃仁","沈發惠","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一\n條條文修正草案」案；二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十\n九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案；三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例\n第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案；六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童\n及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之\n一條文草案」案；十一、委員李坤城等 22 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案；十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案；十\n四、委員廖偉翔等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草\n案」案；十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草\n案」案；十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十\n七、委員黃建賓等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草\n案」案；十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修\n正草案」案；十九、委員王世堅等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十、委員陳菁徽等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十\n一、委員王美惠等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二十\n二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員王鴻薇\n等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬\n具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二\n十六、委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委\n員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案；\n二十八、委員劉建國等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n委員柯志恩等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十、委員陳素月\n等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十一、委員范雲等17人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十二、委員林俊憲等21人擬具「兒童及\n少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十三、委員林思銘等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝\n削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十四、委員張雅琳等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條\n例部分條文修正草案」案；三十五、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條\n文修正草案」案；三十六、委員林月琴等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.76784375,"end":12.552218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.754718750000002,"end":14.644718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.99909375,"end":15.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":15.89346875,"end":17.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.15471875,"end":19.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.04471875,"end":21.090968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.17534375,"end":21.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.39034375,"end":22.559093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.76159375,"end":22.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.86284375,"end":22.930343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.930343750000002,"end":22.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.96409375,"end":22.980968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":22.980968750000002,"end":23.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.06534375,"end":23.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":23.57159375,"end":42.235343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.893468750000004,"end":44.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.01971875,"end":54.165968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":54.55409375,"end":66.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.15971875000001,"end":74.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.07409375,"end":89.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.26596875,"end":109.29659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":109.61721875,"end":115.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.13096875000001,"end":118.18971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.52721875,"end":119.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.70409375000001,"end":122.05409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.29034375,"end":122.62784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":123.31971875,"end":133.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":133.37721875,"end":135.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.50346875,"end":153.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.58909375000002,"end":168.47721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.79784375,"end":172.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.59471875,"end":173.47221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.89409375000002,"end":175.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.34096875,"end":180.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.03221875,"end":181.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.55096875,"end":188.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.87909375,"end":195.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":195.30846875,"end":253.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":254.13471875000002,"end":267.78659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":267.97221875,"end":291.88409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":292.20471875000004,"end":296.94659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":297.25034375,"end":298.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.46096875,"end":326.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":326.59596875,"end":334.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":334.52721875000003,"end":346.81221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":346.96409375,"end":349.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":351.36846875000003,"end":354.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":354.18659375000004,"end":357.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":355.77284375000005,"end":356.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.92846875000004,"end":362.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":361.67909375000005,"end":362.86034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":363.33284375000005,"end":369.54284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":370.11659375000005,"end":372.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":372.69846875,"end":379.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":380.12346875000003,"end":388.10534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.24159375000005,"end":381.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":388.69596875,"end":388.71284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":388.71284375000005,"end":399.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":398.17971875,"end":408.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":409.23284375000003,"end":415.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":416.48909375000005,"end":417.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":417.70409375,"end":4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10:10:25","影片長度":"00:10:05","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月29日及5月2日二天一次會））","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":605,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:10:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:00:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":335,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（10時）非常謝謝我們的主席，我請文化部跟體育署。"],["主席：有請文化部跟體育署。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["柯委員志恩：謝謝兩位，我想我們過去查辦黃牛都是用社維法第六十四條第二款，目前為止，我們很明顯的就是沒有辦法達到阻嚇的效果，所以文化部修了文創法，體育署去年也修了運動產業發展法，在今年1月就要來實施。可是剛剛已經非常多的委員提過了，即使是這樣子的部分，罰鍰提高了，刑度也提升了，兩位身為部門的主管者，你們認為目前的黃牛問題有解決嗎？回答是或不是。"],["王次長時思：誠如剛剛跟委員的回報，黃牛的問題絕對是比之前緩和很多。"],["柯委員志恩：你們認為有解決，那鄭署長呢？你認為呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：目前有比較好一點的現象，但是一樣還是不夠的。"],["柯委員志恩：有比較好，但是不夠，大家都認為好像有下降了，不過剛剛很多委員也特別提到，你看以這個數據來說，我們就從文化部的檢舉黃牛區來說，這個地方提到裁處，成案率大概是28.9%，然後不正的方法，成案率，不好意思只有4.5%，所以是28.9跟4.5，如果你要告訴我說，這個是有一些成效，我想今天在場很多的委員大概都會有異議，這是為什麼到目前為止我們會有一些爭議。我要特別請問一下鄭署長，體育署有沒有比照文化部設立檢舉黃牛專區的網站？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，有。"],["柯委員志恩：有是不是？你覺得好用嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分的確我在署內的主管週報有要求我們的產業組要再去優化。"],["柯委員志恩：哇塞，真的是非常難用！我們來看一下有多難用，你知道嗎？目前你要先找到檢舉黃牛專區的兩種方法，比較複雜是從首頁上方的公告專區，再點新聞專區，再到左邊的資訊總覽才可以看到。第二種方法就是直接在首頁的bar可以看到，你如果不去特別點它的話，它要慢慢跑、慢慢跑，署長知道跑多少秒嗎？你知道跑多少秒？我告訴你，起碼10秒以上。哇塞，我們這個資訊的時代，大家連等3秒鐘都沒有辦法，你要10秒鐘！最荒謬的是，很多民眾找不到運動賽事是放在哪裡，他直接跑到文化部的檢舉黃牛專區去檢舉，目前體育署提供的資料就只有兩件，這是體育署的宣傳不力，還是怎麼樣？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這部分我們來優化。"],["柯委員志恩：你們當然要優化，而且我們真的是誠如剛剛大家所提到的，包括次長，你們兩位部會首長，這個黃牛檢舉的專區，有沒有辦法整合成一個平臺啊？就整合成一個平臺，數發部有沒有辦法有這樣的相關建議？數發部，你們好像覺得都可以來做程式上面的撰寫，我真的覺得，如果沒有辦法的話，乾脆找最近很紅的臺灣地震速報app的那個高中生來幫忙，可能好一點，會不會？數發部真的要很努力，否則的話，真的是沒有辦法。","接下來，為什麼這個部分大家都覺得，剛剛因為轉售二手的票券，很多人就在講，大家都知道有這些社團，每個人都已經提出有非常多的社團，然後你們有沒有主動，我現在只問主動，很多時候你們要收到告發才會去查，請問你們有沒有主動去對這些所謂的社團，看它能不能夠下架，有沒有主動來做這樣的事情？我現在是不是可以請警政署的代表林明佐警政監來回答？警政署有沒有主動調查？"],["林警政監明佐：報告，有。"],["柯委員志恩：你們有啊？"],["林警政監明佐：對。"],["柯委員志恩：到底是誰管？我都不曉得，是文化部嗎？大家都認為可不可以下架，因為民眾看到這些，就會想要進去，可是如果沒有主動調查，但是警政署我真的要說，真的有嗎？因為你看看，你們通常都是用釣魚的方法，對不對？通常警政署裡面的警察都用釣魚的方法喬裝成買家，然後捉出這些黃牛，問題是當警政署送出法辦之後，你覺得法院會不會有判罰？有沒有？"],["林警政監明佐：目前我們移送的案件都進入偵審。"],["柯委員志恩：然後你覺得要怎麼樣嗎？大家最生氣的是，我到司法院的裁判書系統去查，解鎖過去黃牛違反社護法移送的判例，你知道嗎？真的是要看運氣，有些法官有判罰，有些不判罰，原因都是什麼？他說雖然黃牛有所謂轉售的意圖，但是警員，因為都是你們的員警釣出人來，他們並沒有買受門票的意思，所以沒有辦法構成圖利的行為，為什麼會是這個樣子？這表示你送了老半天進去，他都用這個方法來判，都是不判罰，難怪黃牛這麼樣的囂張嘛？不是嗎？警政署，它到底是法規的問題，還是法官自由心證的問題，還是你們偵查方法的問題，可不可以回答一下？"],["林警政監明佐：剛剛委員所提的那是一個個案的偵查手法，目前文創法及運彩條例修法過之後，對於這樣的行為，已經有專法，包括鐵路法也是一樣……"],["柯委員志恩：對不起，警政署，我還是要特別問你，即使有這兩個法，文創法還有運發條例，目前為止都還是用社維法來辦！目前為止都用社維法來辦，而且文創法及運發條例只有兩件事，到底是因為警政機關都是用社維法來移辦，還是到底是怎麼樣？因為基層警察告訴我，他們處理詐騙案已經分身乏術了，根本沒有在辦這個，因為真的是壓力，沒有辦法達到這個地方，還有就是每次送到地檢署，也都是緩起訴，就是因為這樣環環相扣下來，所以目前即使提高了，你看看，結果數千件的檢舉案只裁處30件，而且通通用緩起訴，難怪黃牛都不會怕，對不對？難怪黃牛都不會怕！這到底是哪一個問題……"],["林警政監明佐：跟委員報告，我們統計到4月29日，按照文創法第十條之一第三項刑事罰的部分……"],["柯委員志恩：你講快一點，因為我後面還有。"],["林警政監明佐：我們已經移送6件6人……"],["柯委員志恩：6件6人，這跟我們所預期的還是不太一樣。然後我要特別問，文化部說有3件，你們說有5件，到底有幾件送地檢署？不知道！","另外，我還要看一個大家比較有興趣的，剛剛已經有人提到的，黃牛大戶看到修法，BLACKPINK在高雄辦演唱會，機器人就可以橫掃1,000多張的門票，原價是8,800，他可以加價到1萬3,000到9萬，而且光是這一位大黃牛，你知道嗎？他就講過了，兩場演唱會狠賺2,000多萬，他用機器人掃票掃了1,000多張，然後用外掛的方法大量取票，新法最多只能罰300萬，他賺了2,000多萬，請問這個法有用嗎？BLACKPINK讓這個黃牛賺了2,000多萬，結果我們最高罰則是300萬，還不見得每個都可以罰得到，以這種對比原則，難怪他覺得無關痛癢。如果他是用加價販賣的方法，你看，用票面來講，起碼要罰8,800萬，但是對大戶來說，他用不正的方法來取票，罰的都比加價販售來得輕很多，而且重點是黃牛入行7年，還從來沒有被檢舉，也沒有被開罰過，一場演唱會賺了2,000多萬，這個還不斷地在上演當中，所以你怎麼來看待？難怪黃牛老神在在！你看，而且用不正方法來掃票，還罰得比較輕，這種現象是非常詭異的，你不覺得這個法很奇怪嗎？"],["林警政監明佐：法的部分可能要請主管部會回答。"],["柯委員志恩：我們今天就一一提出來，我想整個彙整之後，可能都要跟我們提出報告，還有包括所謂的實名制。為了避免黃牛，現在粉絲都高喊實名制，次長剛剛也提到了，有這個補助要點，但是現在成效到底是怎麼樣？不好意思！次長。"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，以今年（113年）來說，已經有28場演唱會會採取實名制，據我們的瞭解，有3場是部分實名制。"],["柯委員志恩：對，但是你知道有很多的主辦單位喜歡強調演唱會門票秒殺來作為他們宣傳的賣點，為什麼？諷刺的是黃牛的掃票舉動也能夠讓業者達到秒殺的效果，即使是IU的演唱會實行所謂的實名制，但是對不起！如果是可以修改個資的實名制，還是讓黃牛有鑽漏洞的機會，如果粉絲把他的資料全部交給黃牛代購，也可以變成黃牛的個資，所以即使是實名制……"],["王次長時思：對，它有風險。"],["柯委員志恩：對，還是有非常大的風險，而且你的機器準備的不夠，20幾臺機器，光是入場，可能就要拉到2到3個小時，因為那整個非常反復，所以即使是實名制，也造成了一些困擾，還有造成一些社會現象，我說實在的，到目前為止還是沒有辦法像韓國與日本一樣運作地這麼樣子的熟悉，對不對？"],["王次長時思：實名制現在看起來是最有效能阻擋黃牛的方式，因為目前實名制不是強制的，所以我們才會用補助的方式……"],["柯委員志恩：對，你就是鼓勵的方法，而且很多工讀生的審核一次就能夠入場，不像日、韓，他們即使用實名制，還是有非常多的層次，所以他們可以達到。這個部分即使要實名制，我覺得未來對於很多的漏洞、很多的細節真的還是要加強取締，這才有辦法。","總而言之，我們為什麼今天要排這樣的案子？就是修了這個法之後，黃牛繼續地猖獗，光是想想剛剛說的，他兩場就可以賺2,000多萬，很多民眾都在滴血，所以我還是希望，不管是警政署或是文化部，還是體育署，都能夠在近期當中給我們一份未來更積極作法的報告，可以嗎？"],["王次長時思：好，可以。"],["柯委員志恩：好，一個禮拜之內，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柯志恩召委。"],["主席（柯委員志恩）：謝謝。現在請葉元之委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","范雲","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","黃珊珊","黃捷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","邱志偉","張啓楷","羅智強","林倩綺","林楚茵","劉建國"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列\n席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.5372187500000001,"end":3.8615937500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.418468750000001,"end":6.257843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.93659375,"e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有些不判罰 原因都是什麼?"},{"start":262.02,"end":268.003,"text":"他說呢雖然黃牛有這個所謂的轉售的意圖但是警員你們的員警因為都是調出人來嘛他們並沒有買售門票的意思所以沒有辦法構成圖利的行為為什麼會是這個樣子那表示你送老半天進去他都用這個方法來不判判那難怪黃牛這麼樣的囂張嘛不是嗎然後呢你那個警政署到底是一個法規的問題還是法官自由行政的問題還是你們偵查的方法"},{"start":289.844,"end":305.76,"text":"可不可以回答一下剛剛委員所提到那是一個個案的偵查手法那目前文創法跟運採條例修法過之後對於這樣的行為已經有專法包括鐵路法也是一樣對不起喔 那個屬長我還在特別問你即使有這兩個文創法還有這個部分"},{"start":309.744,"end":328.871,"text":"目前為止都還是用社會法來辦啦目前為止都用社會法來辦而且文創法跟運發條例不分只有兩件事那到底是因為警政機關都是用社會法來移辦還是到底是怎麼樣因為基層警察告訴我他們已經詐騙案已經分身罰數了他們根本沒有在辦這個因為真的是壓力"},{"start":330.111,"end":330.511,"text":"我們統計到4月29日按照這個"},{"start":359.929,"end":377.672,"text":"文創法第10條之一第三項行政法的部分我們已經移送6件6人6件6人這跟我們所預期的還是不太一樣然後我要特別文化部所有3件你們所有5件到底有幾件送進建署不知道但是我還要看一個大家比較有興趣的剛剛已經有人提到的"},{"start":378.132,"end":382.734,"text":"黃牛到戶看到修法Bird Pink在我們高雄辦這個演唱會就能夠機器人就可以橫掃一千多張的門票而且原價是八千八還可以救到一萬三到九萬一萬三到九萬而且光是這一位大黃牛你知道嗎他就講過了兩場演唱會很賺兩千多萬"},{"start":401.303,"end":402.987,"text":"他用機器人掃票掃了一千多．然後用外掛的方法大量取票新法最多只能罰三百萬他賺了兩千多萬請問這個法有用嗎"},{"start":412.705,"end":412.785,"text":"黃牛票氾濫"},{"start":442.705,"end":443.946,"text":"法的部分可能要請主管部會回答"},{"start":466.471,"end":484.536,"text":"我覺得這個就是我們今天就一一提出來我想這個整個彙整之後呢可能都要跟我們提出報告還有包括所謂的這個實名制喔畢竟連黃國昌粉絲都高喊實名制但是呢也提出了這個次長剛剛也提到了有這個補助要點但現在成效到底是怎麼樣不好意思次長"},{"start":485.643,"end":490.609,"text":"跟委員報告以今年113年來說已經有28場演唱會會採取實名制對 但是你知道實名制有很多的主辦單位喜歡強調演唱會秒殺來作為他宣傳的賣點為什麼 諷刺的是黃牛的掃票舉動也能夠讓業者"},{"start":503.285,"end":503.365,"text":"他有風險"},{"start":523.933,"end":524.933,"text":"實名制現在看起來是最有效的阻擋黃牛的方式那所以"},{"start":550.178,"end":569.965,"text":"實名制沒有因為他沒有辦法是強目前不是強制的對你就是鼓勵的方法而且很多公讀生他的審核一次就能夠入場不像日韓他其實用實名制他還是有非常多的層次所以他可以達到所以這個部分即使要實名制我覺得未來真的對於很多的漏洞很多的細節真的還是要強加的舉例我覺得這個才有辦法不過總而言之我還是希望各部會對於黃牛的阻止我們為什麼今天要排這樣的一個案子就是"},{"start":577.407,"end":577.547,"text":"謝謝柯志恩教委謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151819","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151819","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e68243aa9e2bf1112b656dd8af69baafbe34e2527b10508eeea6fda1f50879ef4a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"09:58:54 - 10:09:27","影片長度":"00:10:33","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告「退輔會服務照顧及相關救補助精進作為」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-15"},"duration":633,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:09:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:58:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":238,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（9時58分）謝謝主席，有請我們退輔會主委。"],["主席：請馮主委。"],["馮主任委員世寬：委員早安。"],["林委員楚茵：主委，你好。雖然在這個空間裡面跟您質詢的次數不多，但是從您過去一直以來站在退輔會主委的這個工作上面，可以說是非常的協助我們這些退役官兵們，增進他們的權益，包括剛剛你也特別講到了，我們在有關於補助、獎勵、津貼等等，其實都是逐年在往上攀升，希望給為國家奉獻他們最重要的歲月的這些官軍弟兄們，能夠在退休的時候無後顧之憂。但是本席最近看了幾個新聞，因為我們都知道兩岸之間的關係，可以說是在中國的主導之下，你看一方面國民黨的委員到中國去，但是共軍持續擾臺，就是過去我們講的「一手拉、一手壓」，其實從來沒有停止過。我們知道很多退伍的軍人，包括我自己的弟弟也是退役的將領，當然他們對於國軍在現役所受的壓力，其實是最能感同身受，每次看到這種新聞，他自己都覺得非常的生氣。我要講的是，在這麼多退役的國軍弟兄當中還是有一些人，過去他可能把他的歲月放在軍中，可是退下來之後，包括像夏瀛洲就講，共軍是有權在我們的空域上面做盤旋的，當時退輔會這邊也說了，這是淪為統戰的樣板；最近也有退將栗正傑，他講到為什麼要找顧立雄來當國防部長？原因是因為沒有人想來，有料的不想來，因為沒有人要當敗軍之將啊！為什麼退休了之後，反而常常在後頭唱衰國軍呢？我其實比較想要問的是主委怎麼來看？這樣的說法難道不會傷害大家之間的情感？不是幫著中國所謂長他人志氣、滅自我威風嗎？"],["馮主任委員世寬：報告委員，在我看這種新聞，就是一日亡，你不看它第二天就沒有了。"],["林委員楚茵：是喔！"],["馮主任委員世寬：假如說你一直炒，反而把它炒出來，但這些人我們都不認識，一炒出來之後，就說還有一個將領叫什麼名字，我是建議所有這些新聞，大家不要看。"],["林委員楚茵：但是他會上媒體去接受訪問啊？尤其是掛著「退將」兩個字，就感覺他在軍中過去曾經有非常重要的職務。我想問一下主委，像這樣退休的將領、將官，他們退休俸大概是多少？有沒有一個範圍？"],["馮主任委員世寬：他們領多少錢我是不知道，但是依據他們的薪俸，應該可以養廉，這個絕對沒有問題的。"],["林委員楚茵：你講到我想問的重點了，接受媒體訪問或是上節目，基本上他講出這樣的話來的時候，我們所給他的退休薪俸是足以養廉，但是他卻反過來要倒打我們國軍一把，甚至於就是長他人志氣、滅自我威風，我覺得讓這些現役的軍官情何以堪？雖然說你現在在退輔會，但你應該知道一個新任、新進的國軍弟兄大概起薪是多少吧？肯定是比這些退將的薪水來的少，是嗎？"],["馮主任委員世寬：對。"],["林委員楚茵：如果現役的這些國軍弟兄們拿的沒有這些退將多，但是他們卻一直不斷的被長他人志氣、滅自我威風時，這個問題主委有沒有想過該怎麼處理？"],["馮主任委員世寬：報告委員，這個事情因為他講的話跟實際還是有很多的差別，沒有人會去聽這一些，把它當成好像耳提面命，聽了就算了，甚至這些新聞我從來都不看。像我這樣的人非常多，包括我家裡的內人，他是個多管閒事的人，他都不看這些事情，所以您不要相信，這個在社會上新聞度是非常低的，所以我才給它起個名字叫「一日亡」，今天新聞播了，明天就沒有了。"],["林委員楚茵：就是把它當成網紅來看嗎？但問題是他還是有拿著我們的退休俸喔？當然，我不會說講這些就要對他的退休俸做任何的處分，但是我認為在退輔會的部分，如果主委是這樣想法的時候，也要讓其他更多的不論是現役或是退伍的國軍弟兄瞭解，真實的情況並不是這樣。這個任務可能接下來要交給下一任的退輔會主委，但是至少我相信在這個質詢臺上，主委對你的立場是做了一個明確的表達。","另外一個，我想我們退輔會有非常多的轉投資事業，這些事業一共加起來有多少個，主委您知道嗎？還是請我們主管的來回答。"],["楊處長長政：委員好，報告委員，我是事業管理處處長楊長政。我們主要的轉投資事業有23家，另外還有6家是持股比例非常非常的低。"],["林委員楚茵：言下之意，就是持股在一定的比例，包括董事長或者是總經理，就會由我們退輔會來做推薦，是嗎？"],["楊處長長政：是。"],["林委員楚茵：好，那麼他們到底適不適任？剛剛前面羅美玲委員也特別提到了，畢竟過去很長的一段時間，他們都在軍旅報效國家，對於事業體的經營、對他們的人生來講，這是開啟他的第二人生。所以羅美玲委員建議是要讓他們上一些經營管理的進修課程，畢竟這些都是轉投資事業，但是其實我比較在乎的是有關於考評標準的部分，我想問主委，您知道像這個績效表是達到80分才可以留任，就是剛剛我們講，所謂會派的總經理或者是董事長，您知道達到80分困難嗎？聽起來好像很困難，但是看這張考核表，基本分是70分，言下之意就是，80分能夠留任，他再多爭取10分就好了。所以就主委來看，您覺得困不困難？"],["馮主任委員世寬：我這樣子報告好嗎？我們去臺中欣中瓦斯公司開年會，他們對於我們的總經理、副總經理讚不絕口……"],["林委員楚茵：喔？"],["馮主任委員世寬：因為我們有給他做職前訓練，還有是從我們會內推薦出去的，也是在我們會內當過處長、副主委推薦出去的，所以他們覺得國軍的將領非常的優秀。至於70分、80分，他們不僅達到，董事長批的時候都不止80分，都是89分，我都看了他們這個提報單，我覺得應該沒有問題。"],["林委員楚茵：好，基本上我相信主委對於會內所派出去的這些董總都是充滿了信心的，但我只是做一個提醒跟提示，我也沒有說董總們做得不好，只是我們在做考核標準的時候，我覺得攤出來的時候還是要以昭公信，不然我們每次派的時候，就容易被人家說肥貓啦、自肥啦，或者說任用所謂的自己人啦！我們來看一下，為什麼會這樣講？因為一個事業體最重要的就是經營績效，剛剛我講了基本分是70分，要多拿10分當中有政策執行就可以加8分，而裡頭是什麼呢？重大議案要事先報退輔會、即時回報公司各項狀況、配合本會要求，還有協調董監事改選等等可以拿8分，跟公民股互動可以加2分。怎樣做呢？就是跟民股、公股來做互動就可以加2分，再來是遵循法規可以加3分，我們都知道所有的法規都是退輔會來訂定的，如果不遵循的話，這個已經是違法，不是要加分而是要大扣分了不是嗎？言下之意，最重要的經營績效，包括盈餘的達成或是盈餘達成率其實只有12分，我希望在配比分數上面，不要讓別人覺得我就是在做樣板文章，或者我其實就是在敷衍。","我借鏡一下財政部在派任公營事業機構的經理人或是董監時的一個管理要點，它最重視的是什麼？包括年營業額、每股盈餘、股東權利跟資產報酬等等，我會提出這個部分，其實只是希望在評分標準上面，不要讓大家覺得反正我派了就是讓他可以做到想做時或做完年限到為止。畢竟身為一個所謂的經理人，不論是董事長或是總經理，因為它是一個投資事業，經營標準還是最重要的，不知道主委怎麼看？"],["馮主任委員世寬：非常謝謝委員給我們的建議，我想我們下去會去研究，把它做一個良性的改進。"],["林委員楚茵：是，我相信這樣子可以讓我們退輔會轉投資的這些事業體能夠有更好的表現，未來也可以避免被人家拿出來對於董總的派任做文章，好嗎？"],["馮主任委員世寬：好的，謝謝委員的指導。"],["林委員楚茵：最後，主委您辛苦了，謝謝你。"],["主席（陳永康代）：我們下面請沈伯洋委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-15","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","洪申翰","徐巧芯","邱志偉","林憶君","賴士葆","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告「退輔會服務照顧及相關救補助精進作\n為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133501_00015"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.33471875,"end":4.755968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.25284375,"end":11.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.36659375,"end":20.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.60159375,"end":25.05659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.292843750000003,"end":88.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.91159375000001,"end":113.98784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.15659375000001,"end":117.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.81409375000001,"end":125.20971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.54721875000001,"end":147.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.00346875,"end":149.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.43784375,"end":152.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.78346875,"end":154.25159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":154.84221875,"end":158.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.44909375,"end":162.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.41909375,"end":166.09784375},{"speake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主席有請我們退輔會主委請馮主委委員早安主委您好雖然說在這個空間裡面跟您質詢的次數不多但是從您過去一集來站在這個退輔會主委的這個工作上面可以說是非常的協助我們退休的這些退役官兵們"},{"start":28.889,"end":45.063,"text":"曾經他們的權益包括剛剛你也特別講到了我們在有關於補助獎勵津貼等等其實都是逐年在網上攀升希望給為國家奉獻他們最重要的歲月的這些官軍弟兄們能夠在退休的時候無後顧之憂"},{"start":46.704,"end":73.082,"text":"但是呢本席最近看了幾個新聞因為我們都知道兩岸之間的關係就是可以說是在中國的主導之下你看他們這個一方面國民黨的委員到中國去但是他們的共軍擾台持續就是過去我們講的一手拉一手壓其實從來沒有停止過那麼我們知道很多其實退伍的軍人包括我自己的弟弟"},{"start":73.682,"end":79.388,"text":"也是退役的這個將領當然他們對於這個國軍在現役人所受的壓力他們其實是最能感同身受每次看到這種新聞他自己都覺得非常的生氣喔但是我要講的是但是在這麼多的這個退役的這些國軍弟兄當中"},{"start":92.18,"end":117.446,"text":"還是有一些人其實過去他可能把他的歲月放在這個軍中可是退下來之後包括像夏迎周就講說這個共軍是有權在我們的空域上面做盤旋的當時這個退輔會我們這邊也說了就是淪為這個統戰的樣板那麼最近呢也有這個退將栗正傑啊他講到說為什麼要找這個顧立雄來當國防部長原因是因為"},{"start":118.886,"end":124.487,"text":"沒有人想來有料的不想來因為沒有人要當這個敗將之君啊這個感覺上就是為什麼這個退休了之後反而常常在後頭唱衰中國呢我其實比較想要問的是主委你怎麼來看這樣的說法難道不會傷害大家之間的情感不是幫著中國在所謂長他人志氣滅自我威風嗎"},{"start":149.039,"end":169.197,"text":"報告委員在我看這種新聞就是一日亡你不看第二天就沒有了假如你一直炒反而把它炒出來這些人我們都不認識一炒出來之後還有一個將領叫什麼名字我是建議所有這些新聞大家不要看"},{"start":170.336,"end":197.744,"text":"但是他會上媒體去接受訪問啊尤其是呢掛著一個退將兩個字就感覺上好像他在軍中過去曾經有非常重要的職務我想問一下主委喔像這樣的退休的將領喔將官喔他們大概薪資就是退休奉大概是多少有沒有一個範圍他們多少錢我是不知道但是依據他們的這個薪奉應該可以養年"},{"start":199.559,"end":226.331,"text":"這個絕對沒有問題的你就問到我想講的重點了就是接受媒體訪問或是上節目基本上他講出這樣的話來的時候所給他的這些退休興奉是足以養廉但是他卻反過來要倒打我們國軍一把甚至於就是長他人志氣滅制我威風的時候我覺得你讓這些現役的軍官情何以堪我想你應該雖然說你現在在這個退輔會"},{"start":228.592,"end":228.852,"text":"報告委員啊 這個事情啊"},{"start":257.401,"end":270.692,"text":"因為他講的話跟實際還是有很多的差別這個沒有人會去聽這一些把它當成一個好像耳提念命聽了就算了甚至像我這些新聞我從來都不看"},{"start":271.94,"end":274.142,"text":"就是把他當成網紅來看嗎但是問題是他還是有拿著我們的退休縫喔"},{"start":299.207,"end":325.768,"text":"當然我不會說講這些就對他的退休奉做任何的處分但是我認為在退輔會的部分如果主委是這樣的想法的時候那麼也要讓其他的更多不論是現役或是退伍的國軍弟兄瞭解真實的情況並不是這樣這個任務可能當然接下來要交給下一任的退輔會主委但是至少我相信在這個質詢台上主委對你的立場是做了一個明確的表達"},{"start":326.468,"end":352.665,"text":"另外一個其實當然我想我們退輔會有非常多的這個轉投資事業啦這些事業大概一共加起來有多少個主委您知道嗎還是請我們這個主管的這個來回答我是事業管理處處長楊長正我們主要的轉投資事業有23家另外有6家是因為持股比例非常非常的低好那麼言下之意就是說持股比例"},{"start":353.792,"end":383.252,"text":"在一定的這個比例之下包括董事長或者是總經理就會由我們退輔會來做推薦是嗎是好那麼他們到底適不適任剛剛前面羅美林委員特別提到了畢竟呢過去很長的一段時間他們都在軍旅報效國家對於事業體的經營對他們的人生來講這是開啟他的第二人生所以羅美林委員建議是要讓他們來上一些經營管理的進修課程因為畢竟這些都是轉投資事業"},{"start":384.032,"end":411.93,"text":"但是其實我比較在乎的是有關於考評標準的部分我想問這個諸位您知道像這個績效表是達到80分才可以留任就是剛剛我們所講的這些所謂會派的這些總經理或者是董事長那您知道達到80分困難嗎?聽起來好像很困難但是看這張考核表基本分是70分言下之意就是80分能夠留任他再多爭取10分就好了"},{"start":412.19,"end":414.133,"text":"所以如果就主委來看你覺得困不困難我這樣子報告好嗎我去台中的新中這個瓦斯公司我們就開年會"},{"start":425.179,"end":448.74,"text":"他們對於我們的總經理副總經理戰不絕口因為我們有給他做職前訓練是還有是從我們會內推薦出去的也是在我們會內當過處長副主委推薦出去的所以他們覺得國軍的將領非常的優秀那麼至於70分80分他們這個達到"},{"start":451.447,"end":458.531,"text":"這個董事長批的時候都不止80分都是89分我都看了他們這個提報單嘛我覺得應該沒有問題"},{"start":460.802,"end":474.146,"text":"基本上我相信呢這個主委在會內當中所派出去的這些董總都是充滿了信心的但是呢我只是做一個提醒跟提示我也沒有說這個董總們做得不好只是我們在做這個考核標準的時候我覺得攤出來的時候還是要以招公信不然呢我們每次派的時候就容易被人家說這個肥貓啦"},{"start":488.07,"end":495.632,"text":"自肥啦或者是說呢這個任用所謂的自己人啦我們來看一下為什麼會這樣講是因為一個這個事業體最重要講的就是經營績效那麼剛剛我講了基本分是70分要多拿這10分呢來我們來看一下多拿這10分當中有"},{"start":508.516,"end":510.559,"text":"政策執行就可以加8分那麼裡頭是什麼呢重大議案要先匯報給退輔會那要及時匯報公司各項狀況配合本會要求還有協調董監事改選這等等可以拿8分"},{"start":526.317,"end":526.717,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":556.397,"end":576.128,"text":"我希望在這個配比分數上面不要讓別人覺得我就是在做樣板文章或者是我其實就是在敷衍我借鏡一下財政部在派任公營事業機構的經理人或是董監的時候的一個管理要點他最重要重視的是什麼包括年營業額、每股營餘、股東權利跟資產報酬等等"},{"start":583.393,"end":610.755,"text":"我會提出這個部分其實只是希望說在評分標準上面不要讓大家覺得說反正我派了那麼我就是讓他可以做到他想做或做完或連線到為止畢竟身為一個所謂的經理人不論是董事長或是總經理因為他是一個投資事業經營標準還是最重要的那麼不知道主委你怎麼看"},{"start":611.462,"end":633.323,"text":"我非常謝謝委員給我們的建議我想我們下去會去研究把它做一個良性的改進是 我相信這樣子可以讓我們退輔會轉投資的這些事業體能夠有更好的表現那麼未來也可以避免被人家拿出來對於董總的派任做文章 好嗎好的 謝謝委員的指導好 謝謝最後主委您辛苦了"}]}},{"id":"151818","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151818","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e620fb95a2f6ac1cb012d28fff7690636534e2527b10508eee10bd954f519c80315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:57:11 - 10:06:07","影片長度":"00:08:56","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-18"},"duration":536,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:06:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:57:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":390,"blocks":[["陳委員俊宇：（9時57分）謝謝主席，我們有請李秘書長，秘書長早。"],["李秘書長俊俋：陳委員早。"],["陳委員俊宇：秘書長，我們今天要審查的是有關監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二的相關修正草案，也就是針對有關擔任監察委員的資格條件。根據憲法增修條文第七條第二項所定，監察院設置29位監委，其中一位為院長，另外一位為副院長，任期6年，由總統提名，經立法院同意任命之。也就是說，監察委員的提名是總統在憲政上的權責，立法院在行使人事同意權之後，便會再基於五權分立這個架構下去進行。","針對我們今天看到國民黨所提出要刪除第三條之一中的第一款，也就是王建院長條款，以及第六款的張博雅院長條款的草案，我想到底是在檢視這兩位院長過去擔任院長時的資格問題？還是對於這兩位院長過去的表現好不好的一個檢視？我想有沒有符合社會期待還是相關的議題，應該是要回歸正面的方向來思考。我們從監察院所提供的書面報告裡面可以看到，近三屆監察委員當中，適用這兩個條款加起來的可能就占三成以上，剛剛秘書長也大概回復了。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["陳委員俊宇：就秘書長您自己的觀察來看，適用這兩款資格的監委相較於其他委員，在工作上是否具有比較特別的優勢？比方說，他們在政治上的豐富經驗，可能會更有利於職權的行使，您的看法呢？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟陳委員報告，監察院重要的是委員組成的多元性，所以我們會有一至七款這樣積極條件的限制，其實最重要的是多元性，你剛剛提到的比如說擔任過立委，我們認為他對政府的運作相當熟悉，所以轉任監委以後，沒有銜接上的問題，他可以很快進入狀況。"],["陳委員俊宇：是。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們是有發現這樣的現象。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，在這個過程裡面，我們也看到有學者提出可以參考考試院的修法經驗，明定單一政黨委員不能超過總委員數的二分之一，秘書長之前也身為立法委員，不僅參與過考試院組織修法過程，也曾對監察院組織法提出類似的構想，那我想就教秘書長，以你現在作為監察院秘書長來看，你認為適不適合參考考試院的經驗，以避免被提名人立場單一的可能？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們現在單一黨籍並沒有超過二分之一，甚至連三分之一都沒有，是不是有必要在組織法增加這一條，我沒有意見，我們尊重大院的決定。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。另外，新增第三條之二有關消極資格的限制，雖然立意是希望監委能夠超脫黨派，憲法增修條文第七條第五項也規定，監察委員須超出黨派以外，依據法律獨立行使職權。即監察委員在任期中應保持公正、中立，不受任何干涉。不過，修正的條文中，對於資格所設定的「十年內有加入政黨或參與任何政治活動者」的限制，尤其是其中這個參與任何政治活動，並沒有一個明確的界定，不論是時間的長度還是範圍的廣度，在實務上是否有難以查證的現象？"],["李秘書長俊俋：兩個部分跟委員報告，第一，在剛剛跟莊瑞雄委員的對談中也有提到這件事，監察院重要的是在擔任監委以後，不得參加政治活動，而在擔任監委之前，那本來就是人民的集會結社自由。第二，增訂第三條之二，我們認為有困難，為什麼有困難？第一點，十年內參加政黨，這個我們還可以查，但是有沒有參加過政治活動，政治活動的定義到底是什麼？範疇到哪裡？比如我去參加反核遊行，算不算政治活動？我去參加反滲透法的遊行，算不算政治活動？如果這個沒有明確定義的話，我們在執行上會有相當的困難。"],["陳委員俊宇：對，如果要溯及既往，而政治活動又沒有明確定義，去助選、輔選，還有剛剛秘書長提到的參加反核活動，算不算？"],["李秘書長俊俋：助選、輔選，這個在監察院的自律規範裡都有嚴格的禁止。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，如果參照行政中立法第五條第一項的規定，公務人員得加入政黨或其他政治團體，但不得兼任政黨或其他政治團體的職務。公務員可以加入政黨，但監委在被提名前十年都不能有黨籍，秘書長認為對於政治活動的界定，適合參酌監察院的自律規範，這樣的規定是否限縮到總統的提名權？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我認為會限縮到總統的提名權，而且一個人沒有辦法預測他十年以後會不會擔任監委……"],["陳委員俊宇：是。"],["李秘書長俊俋：會不會被提名，所以老實講，這個部分在實際的執行上一定會有困難。"],["陳委員俊宇：我想民眾期待我們所組成的監察院，是可以超然公正，由德高望重的人士來伸張正義，我相信這是所有民眾所期待的，所以在修法上，還是要尊重憲法賦予總統提名的權責，在合理的情況之下，我們來討論監委提名的問題，我想這樣才是符合民眾的期待。"],["李秘書長俊俋：重點是提名權跟同意權，所以不要限縮總統的權限，立委可以在同意權上表示同意或不同意。"],["陳委員俊宇：好。接下來我再就教秘書長有關兒少性剝削的相關議題。兒少性剝削案件層出不窮，而貴院的人權會在本月10日曾發出新聞稿，呼籲政府能夠正視兒少性影像犯罪的問題，恰好今天衛環和本委員會聯席審查兒童及少年性剝削防制條例修正草案，顯見社會各界對於兒少性剝削以及私密影像的杜絕相當重視。目前國內不分朝野亟欲共同解決這個問題，我想請教秘書長，貴院的人權會如何在兒少性剝削相關議題上發揮最大的功能，又如何建議政府採取相關的措施來保障兒少的人權？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟陳委員報告，我們的人權會目前正在針對這個議題進行系統性調查，調查完以後，會提出我們的建議，預計在今年年底會提出這個部分。"],["陳委員俊宇：年底會有一個結果報告？"],["李秘書長俊俋：年中，年中。"],["陳委員俊宇：對於這個議題，我們還是期待監察院人權會能夠有更多的著力點，尤其人權會的委員們大多是相關議題的專門研究或貢獻者，算是專家……"],["李秘書長俊俋：他們現在是符合第七款。"],["陳委員俊宇：對，希望能夠盡最大的力量落實兒少人權的保障，不管在修法、政策的倡議，或是提出建議，期待在監院及所有主管的帶領之下，能夠各司其職，讓我們一起來努力，趕快把這個問題解決。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我相信我們人權會會提出適當的建議。"],["陳委員俊宇：好，謝謝秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","徐巧芯","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","羅智強","林思銘","黃建賓","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","柯建銘","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王鴻薇"],"page_start":335,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133501_00017"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.172218750000003,"end":17.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.46221875,"end":22.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.62659375,"end":23.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.79096875,"end":47.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.80409375,"end":51.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.039718750000006,"end":70.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.53034375,"end":87.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.89471875000001,"end":94.76721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.67846875000001,"end":111.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.57471875,"end":120.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.29471875,"end":152.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.84596875,"end":131.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.98596875,"end":177.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.43784375,"end":177.84284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.84284375000001,"end":179.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.61471875,"end":179.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.20534375,"end":181.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.70721875,"end":204.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.18034375000002,"end":218.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.79846875,"end":224.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.45159375,"end":224.89034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.89034375000003,"end":230.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.66159375,"end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謝謝主席 主席我們有請李秘書長"},{"start":21.656,"end":46.978,"text":"秘書長早秘書長我們今天要審查的是有關我們監察院組織法第三條之一的這個及第三條之二的相關修正草案那也就是針對我們有關擔任監察委員的資格條件那根據憲法這個徵修條文第七條第二項所定監察院"},{"start":47.859,"end":70.265,"text":"我們設置有29位的監委其中一位為院長那另外一位為副院長那任期6年由總統提名經立法院同意任命之那也就是說監察委員的提名是總統在憲政上的權責那立法院在行使人事同意權之後便會在基於五權分立的這個架構下去進行"},{"start":72.007,"end":91.005,"text":"針對我們今天看到這個國民黨所提出要刪除第三條之一中的這個第一款也就是王建宣院長條款以及第六條第六款之中的這個張柏雅院長條款的草案我想到底是在檢視這兩位院長過去的這個"},{"start":95.928,"end":119.925,"text":"單任院長時的資格問題還是說對於這兩位院長過去的表現好不好的一個檢視那我想有沒有符合社會期待還是相關的議題應該是要回歸正面的這個方向來思考那我們從監察院所提供的書面報告裡面我們也可以看到"},{"start":121.363,"end":143.074,"text":"近三屆的這個監察委員當中是用這兩個條款加起來的可能就佔有三成以上剛剛秘書長您也大概回覆了那就秘書長您自己觀察來看是用這兩款的這個資格的監委相較其他的委員在工作上是否具有比較特別的優勢"},{"start":145.376,"end":159.304,"text":"比方說他們在政治上的這個豐富經驗可能會更有利於職權的行使您的看法我跟陳委員報告監察院重要的是委員組成的多元性所以我們會有1至7款"},{"start":159.764,"end":160.044,"text":"陳俊宇"},{"start":181.792,"end":204.262,"text":"在這個過程裡面我們也看到有學者提出可以參考這個考試院的修法經驗明定單一政黨委員不能超過總委員數的二分之一那秘書長您之前也是身為立法委員不僅也參與過這個考試院的這個組織修法過程那也曾對監察院組織法提出"},{"start":205.682,"end":217.911,"text":"這個類似的構想那我想再就教就是說現在作為監察院的秘書長您來看認為適不適合參考考試院的經驗來避免被提名人立場單一的可能"},{"start":218.797,"end":221.079,"text":"另外有關我們新增第三條之二的消極資格限制"},{"start":236.935,"end":266.178,"text":"雖然利益是希望監委能夠超脫黨派那憲法徵修條文第7條第5項也有規定監察委員需超出黨派的以外依據法律獨立行使職權在任期中未就應保持公正中立不受任何的干涉但修正的條文中對於資格所設定的這個10年內有參加過政黨或參與任何政治活動者"},{"start":266.778,"end":295.561,"text":"尤其對於其中這個參與過任何政治活動沒有一個明確的界定不論是時間的長度還是範圍的這個廣度在實務上是否有難以去查證的這個現象兩個部分我跟委員報告第一個就是剛剛跟莊惠祥委員的對談裡面也有提到這件事情監察院重要的是你擔任監委以後不得參加政治活動至於你擔任監委之前那本來就是人民的集會結社自由"},{"start":296.101,"end":324.469,"text":"那第二個部分就是在三這二條裡面我們認為有困難為什麼有困難第一個就是十年內參加政黨這個我們還可以查但是有沒有參加過政治活動政治活動的定義到底是什麼他的範疇到哪裡比如說我去參加反核遊行算不算政治活動我去參加這個反滲透法的遊行算不算政治活動這個沒有明確的定義的話我們在執行上會有相當的困難對他這個溯及既往那你政治活動沒有明確的話"},{"start":325.529,"end":344.864,"text":"你去助選輔選還是剛剛秘書長您說的參加反核活動算不算助選輔選我們在監察院的自律規範裡面都有嚴格的禁止是好那如果我們參照這個行政中立法第5條之中第一項的規定公務人員得加入政黨或其他這個政治團體"},{"start":345.664,"end":363.326,"text":"但不得兼任政黨或其他政治團體的職務那公務員可以加入政黨但監委在被提名前10年都不能有黨籍那秘書長您認為對於政治活動的界定適合參酌監察院的自律規範這樣的規定是否能夠限縮到總統的提名權"},{"start":364.187,"end":366.289,"text":"所以我想民眾也是在期待我們所組成的監院是可以超然公正那得高望重的人士來伸張正義我相信這是所有民眾所期待的"},{"start":389.887,"end":412.974,"text":"那在修法上還是尊重憲法賦予總統提名的權責在合理的情況之下我們來討論這個監委提名的問題我相信這樣才是符合民眾的期待重點是提名權跟同意權所以不要限縮總統的權限那立委可以在同意權上表示同意或不同意好那接下來我想就教秘書長針對這個兒少性剝削的這個相關議題那在"},{"start":419.096,"end":421.002,"text":"而遭信剝削的案件層出不窮"},{"start":422.762,"end":450.08,"text":"而貴院的人權會在本月10日曾發出新聞稿呼籲政府能夠正視兒少性影像犯罪的問題那恰好今天魏環也在聯席本委員會正在審查有關兒童及少年性剝削防治條例的修正草案那顯見我們社會各界對於兒少性剝削以及私密影像的杜絕相關的重視那"},{"start":452.731,"end":480.797,"text":"今天我想說因為目前國內不分草野急於共同解決這個問題我想請教秘書長就是我們櫃會的人權會如何在兒少性剝削相關議題上發揮最大的功能又如何來建議政府採取相關的措施來保障我們兒少的人權我跟陳委員報告我們的人權會現在目前正在進行系統性的調查有關這個議題那調查完以後我們會提出我們的建議那我們認為說"},{"start":483.294,"end":508.909,"text":"預計在今年的年底會提出來這個部分年底會有一個結構報告年中啦年中那我想還是對這個議題我們期待我們這個監察院的人權會能夠有更多的這個著力點尤其在人權會的委員們大多都是相關議題的這個專門研究或是貢獻者算是專家他們現在不合第七款不合第七款"},{"start":509.249,"end":534.624,"text":"那希望能夠盡最大的力量來落實我們兒少人權的保障不管在修法還是政策還是倡議工作或是提出建議這個我相信期待我們這個在監院及這個所有我們主管的這個帶領之下能夠各司其職讓我們一起來努力趕快來把這個問題解決我相信我們人權會提出適當的建議好 謝謝秘書長好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151817","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151817","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6a517815093124cec055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eeecd63afc3e7d0c2bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:55:54 - 10:03:09","影片長度":"00:07:15","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":435,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:03:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:55:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":676,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時56分）主席、各位委員、各位官員。我也請薛部長。謝謝。"],["主席：好，請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長早。最近因為新聞事件，大家對於社安網、社福等等都非常重視，全民也很關心。我們知道馬政府從2012年1月就修正社會福利政策綱領，去年立法院也三讀通過，規定政策綱領至少每五年都需要檢討一次。請問部長，你知道這個綱領已經多久沒有更新了嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個應該是有歷次，但是之前的話我不是那麼清楚。社會福利基本法草案三讀應該不是去年的事情，所以還沒有到五年。"],["陳委員菁徽：我給您正確答案，正確答案是長達十二年沒有更新。大家知道科技犯罪、網路犯罪、手機犯罪，關於社安、社福，還有最近我們很關注的這些性影片，許多需要跨國合作。全球各大型社會福利國際論壇組織越來越多，不管是參與或是像我們有配合的聯合國兒童權利公約等等，這些我們都宣示會跟聯合國站在一起，但是我們的社會福利綱領仍然停留在十年前，沒有與時俱進。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個社會福利政策綱領涵蓋的範圍非常大，雖然這裡未更新的時間可能比較長，但是個別的身心障礙、兒童權利、長期照顧等等，這些都有定期……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，去年我們三讀通過，說每五年要修正，您想要把它留給下一任嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：還沒到五年，去年法通過……"],["陳委員菁徽：沒有，去年說應該每五年更新。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，過去的我們沒有辦法……"],["陳委員菁徽：但是去年已經十年沒有更新了。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們沒有辦法追溯，說前七年的時候再補更新一次，前兩年……"],["陳委員菁徽：好，沒關係。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有辦法這樣做。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們看一下，衛福部也有聯合國兒童權利公約的網站，做得很漂亮，也給全民看。這一個兒少國家行動計畫，聯合國的委員來，我們要給他審查，也要給他評鑑。裡面有澳洲的、有印度的、有烏干達的，都有，你都放進去了，可是臺灣還沒做出來，已經兩年了還沒做出來。你2022年跟聯合國的委員說，我們會全力配合跟國際接軌，結果我們把別的國家放進去，我不知道這個網站是……"],["薛部長瑞元：但是我們每年做CRC的review的時候，都有做出一些報告。雖然也許沒有全面行動計畫這樣的名稱，但是對於CRC的落實，我們都有在做。"],["陳委員菁徽：OK，所以我們要跟這些聯合國的評鑑委員說，雖然我們交不出本來承諾的行動計畫報告，但是我們有很多替代的施政計畫，是這個意思嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：可以這麼說，其實我們有整體性地落實CRC，有整體性的報告，但是它maybe不叫全面性行動計畫。"],["陳委員菁徽：這個可能要跟聯合國的人說沒辦法就好了，對不對？","接下來我們要討論一下，其實這個是目前非常多臺灣年輕人關心的事情──貧窮線的定義。日本、韓國的貧窮率大概是15到16%，臺灣目前的貧窮率只有1.3%，遠低於學者還有民團估計出的11%，中間有220萬人口的差距。向衛福部申請低收跟中低收入戶的人裡面，他們的通過率只有45%，表示有大於一半真正很貧窮的人被排除在外。團體指出社會救助法本身對於中低收入的標準過於嚴苛，請問4月22號提出的院版社會救助法草案，可以改善貧窮率的問題嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然有一個部分會改善。但是社會救助法修正草案已經到一個程度、已經準備要預告了，預告之後我們還會再蒐集各界的意見，最後定案的話……"],["陳委員菁徽：這邊是許許多多民團及學者反映的，其實有一個大家很重視的部分你們沒有把它考慮進去，就是不列計未同居共財親屬的收入與資產。有很多已經離開家鄉的年輕人，他們可能在外地租屋，如果要寄放戶籍，房東可能不願意或者要漲租金，許多年輕人也不可能去匿名檢舉，因為房東就會發現，可能也會找一些藉口不想延續租屋，所以當他把房租、交通、生活費等等的全部花完，其實他跟他的父母在原來的地方一樣都是非常貧窮的。針對這方面，我想要幫他們說話，為什麼不將未同居共財用實際狀況來認列呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分當然都可以來討論，本來社救法就是以戶為單位，究竟這個「戶」是戶籍戶還是居住地，這個都可以討論，它各有利弊啦！"],["陳委員菁徽：但是你的草案已經快要預告了，當中並沒有放入這個。"],["薛部長瑞元：現在已經預告了，剛剛的說法我修正一下，現在已經在預告當中，這部分未來會是用什麼樣的方式來做，因為它各有利弊……"],["陳委員菁徽：做修改？"],["薛部長瑞元：也許到了立法院大家還可以再討論。"],["陳委員菁徽：希望部長之後可以聽聽實際狀況上這些貧窮人的聲音。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個當然都是一個因素，但是要去做整體法制上的規定的話，有時候執行上面也會有一些困難。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請林月琴委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1","speakers":["王育敏","黃捷","蘇清泉","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","陳冠廷","李坤城","許宇甄","沈伯洋","王世堅","陳菁徽","王美惠","王鴻薇","張雅琳","何欣純","范雲","林思銘","林月琴","陳昭姿","廖偉翔","劉建國","黃國昌","林淑芬","陳俊宇","王正旭","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳亭妃","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","李彥秀","蔡易餘","莊瑞雄","楊曜","盧縣一","涂權吉","羅智強","黃仁","沈發惠","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一\n條條文修正草案」案；二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十\n九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案；三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例\n第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案；六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童\n及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之\n一條文草案」案；十一、委員李坤城等 22 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案；十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案；十\n四、委員廖偉翔等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草\n案」案；十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草\n案」案；十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十\n七、委員黃建賓等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草\n案」案；十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修\n正草案」案；十九、委員王世堅等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十、委員陳菁徽等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十\n一、委員王美惠等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二十\n二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員王鴻薇\n等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬\n具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二\n十六、委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委\n員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案；\n二十八、委員劉建國等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n委員柯志恩等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十、委員陳素月\n等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十一、委員范雲等17人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十二、委員林俊憲等21人擬具「兒童及\n少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十三、委員林思銘等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝\n削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十四、委員張雅琳等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條\n例部分條文修正草案」案；三十五、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條\n文修正草案」案；三十六、委員林月琴等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.578468750000001,"end":10.476593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.084093750000001,"end":11.910968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.29846875,"end":16.922843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.12534375,"end":18.05346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.01534375,"end":26.980343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.65534375,"end":41.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.42534375,"end":45.525968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.095343750000005,"end":63.345968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.62846875000001,"end":70.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.51784375,"end":71.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.10409375,"end":106.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.30534375,"end":126.20534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.93159375,"end":123.47159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.50096875000001,"end":131.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.67346875000001,"end":127.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.81659375,"end":129.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.16221875000002,"end":133.54596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.28846875000002,"end":135.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.80721875,"end":136.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.14471875,"end":137.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.21221875,"end":143.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.94159375,"end":140.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.88659375,"end":142.74284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.89471875,"end":151.60221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.66596875000002,"end":149.07096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.13846875000002,"end":149.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.34096875,"end":151.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.60221875000002,"end":158.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.72346875000002,"end":188.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.07721875000001,"end":207.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.12784375,"end":190.34721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.26159375,"end":198.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.74971875,"end":207.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.45846875,"end":218.29221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.44409375,"end":220.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.51534375000003,"end":227.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.06284375,"end":233.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.40846875000003,"end":230.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.49659375000002,"end":238.59284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.04846875,"end":248.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.56159375000001,"end":293.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.70659375,"end":306.26159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.02096875,"end":319.52534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.02909375,"end":309.14721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.29346875000005,"end":373.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.08221875000004,"end":390.40034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.19784375,"end":394.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":394.82159375000003,"end":394.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.83846875,"end":414.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.05784375,"end":395.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.37846875,"end":395.39534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.69284375,"end":409.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.07659375000003,"end":410.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.55284375,"end":418.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.86846875000003,"end":428.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":428.30159375000005,"end":430.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.49534375,"end":432.13221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":432.57096875,"end":433.33034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":434.57909375,"end":435.45659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.861,"end":11.725,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位觀眾。那我也請薛部長,謝謝。好,請薛部長。委員好。部長早。"},{"start":19.062,"end":45.228,"text":"最近因為新聞事件嘛,所以大家對於社安網、社福等等的都非常非常重視,全民也很關心。知道說馬政府從2012年1月就修正了社會福利政策綱領。去年呢,立法院也三讀通過,規定政策綱領至少每五年都需要檢討一次。請問部長你知道我們這個綱領已經多久沒有更新了嗎?"},{"start":48.631,"end":63.144,"text":"這個應該是有歷次,但是因為之前的話我不是那麼清楚。社會福利基本法的草案三讀應該不是在去年的事情,所以還沒有到五年。"},{"start":65.11,"end":83.328,"text":"我這邊給您正確答案正確答案是長達12年沒有更新了大家知道說科技犯罪、網路犯罪、手機犯罪而且關於社安、社福像最近我們很關注的這些新影片許多需要跨國的合作"},{"start":85.169,"end":105.636,"text":"全球各大型社會福利的國際論壇組織越來越多不管是參與或是像我們有在配合的聯合國兒童權利公約等等這些我們都宣示說我們會跟聯合國站在一起但是我們的社會福利綱領仍然停留在十年前沒有與時俱進"},{"start":107.535,"end":133.291,"text":"跟委員報告,這社會福利政策綱領涵蓋的範圍是非常大的。雖然這裡可能是時間,未更新的時間是比較長,但是個別的身心障礙、兒童權利、長期照顧等等這些都有定期在...去年我們三讀通過,說每五年要修正,您想要把它留給下一任?就還沒到五年。"},{"start":135.85,"end":144.153,"text":"沒有,去年沒有說,去年說應該要每五年更新,但是去年已經十年沒有更新了。好,好,沒關係,我們看一下,我們這邊"},{"start":152.156,"end":175.422,"text":" bicycliffe 和聯合國兒童權利公約也有一個網站,做得很漂亮,也給全民來看。好,我們這個兒少國家行動計畫,聯合國的委員來,我們要給他審查嘛,我們也要給他評鑑。好,我們裡面喔,有澳洲的、有印度的、有烏干達的,都有喔,你都放進去了,可是台灣是?"},{"start":176.602,"end":178.866,"text":"已經兩年了還沒做出來你2022年跟聯合國的委員說我們會全力配合跟國際接軌結果我們把別的國家放進去我不知道這個網站是"},{"start":191.154,"end":217.964,"text":"但是我們每年在做這個CRC的review的時候都有做出來一些報告所以雖然也許沒有這所謂的這個全面行動計畫這樣子的名稱但是對CRC的落實OK所以我們要跟這些聯合國的評鑑委員說雖然我們交不出這個我們本來承諾你的行動計畫報告但是我們有很多替代的施政計畫是這個意思嗎?"},{"start":221.586,"end":226.649,"text":"可以這麼說,就是說其實是我們有整體性的對於CRC的落實。"},{"start":228.861,"end":233.785,"text":"接下來我們要討論一下其實這個是非常非常多台灣目前年輕人關心的事情我們對於貧窮線的定義這個"},{"start":249.64,"end":266.098,"text":"日本、韓國貧窮率有大概是15到16%台灣目前的貧窮率只有1.3%遠低於學者還有民團所估計出的11%中間有220萬人口的差距所以呢衛福部申請"},{"start":267.179,"end":267.579,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":294.701,"end":296.921,"text":"這邊是許許多多民團還有學者反映的"},{"start":322.066,"end":326.669,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":343.439,"end":373.439,"text":""},{"start":374.12,"end":376.502,"text":"但是你的草案已經快要預告了,是沒有放入這個欸?"},{"start":395.041,"end":416.014,"text":"對阿所以現在已經預告了啦我剛剛修正一下現在已經在預告當中那這未來會是用什麼樣的方式來做因為他各有做修改這也許到了立法院大家還可以再討論希望部長之後可以聽聽實際狀況這些貧窮人的聲音"},{"start":419.817,"end":431.488,"text":"這個當然都是一個因素,但是要去做整體的法制上面的一個規定的話,有時候執行上面也會有一些困難。接下來我們請"}]}},{"id":"151816","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151816","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e649f98df19e0964ca054712d423581dcc34e2527b10508eee444a855be115db145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:49:30 - 10:00:07","影片長度":"00:10:37","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月29日及5月2日二天一次會））","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":637,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:00:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:49:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":296,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時49分）謝謝主席。有請文化部王時思次長、體育署鄭世忠署長、內政部警政署林明佐警政監。"],["主席：請三位代表。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：今天召委安排的專報題目特別具有意義，因為文創產業發展法針對黃牛票問題的修法滿一年。我們來看一下這個打牛報告，剛剛已經有很多委員提過，所以我就不說了。藝文票券移送案件五件，體育署就更誇張了，四個多月來，具體成效只有民眾檢舉案件兩件！我在此請教文化部、體育署跟警政署，難道這些零零星星的案件，就是聯合打牛一年的懲治成果嗎？難道遏止黃牛完完全全是一般民眾的責任嗎？至於主動查緝的成效更是隻字未提！可不可以回答我，是不是民眾檢舉才是唯一的作法？是或不是？"],["王次長時思：不是！為什麼案件變得很少？很關鍵的原因在於去年修法之後，我們跟這些售票平台及主辦單位協商，所以大量的演唱會，尤其是特別受歡迎的演唱會，幾乎都採實名制……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以打得很好，是不是？"],["王次長時思：沒有，但整體來說，數量確實是有下降。"],["葛委員如鈞：那我就認為你們都一致了？好，我們來看一下。打開社群軟體隨便一看，張學友、IU、energy的門票，每一場演唱會消息放出來後，大家都集體哀嚎，甚至有人說臺灣就是黃牛天堂。我們再來看，以特區B為例，原票價是五千多塊，結果轉售價為三萬多塊，甚至顯示曾經高達七萬塊，漲幅高達1000%，超過十二倍。剛剛已經提過，花錢事小，但萬一被騙呢？剛剛很謝謝次長說，知道黃牛要變成詐騙黃牛，真的非常危險，您卻說成效很好。我們來看，從去年5月到今天3月，將藝文票券以超過票面金額定價販售者被檢舉的案件共584件，其中有56%的加價金額都低於一千元，這跟我們認知的黃牛產業完全不同！結果我們去了解以後發現，當中很多都是不熟悉法律規範的學生或朋友間在轉售票券的過程當中，無意間加上手續費所犯下的案件。結果文化部的書面報告卻在結語時說，做得很好，加價轉售金額大幅下降。實際上我們認為你們根本沒看到滿天老鷹在飛，打了一堆小鳥還沾沾自喜！想請教次長，文化部針對黃牛案件，到底是要打老鷹，還是打小鳥？到底要主動還是被動？可不可以分享一下？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，以張學友演唱會案件來說，現在我們已經接獲112件，有14件在調查中，有些甚至已請檢舉人到場陳述……"],["葛委員如鈞：所以是要打老鷹，對吧？所以下一次我們就來看這個案件是不是又是一千塊，是嗎？"],["王次長時思：其實最重要的是：不要再有黃牛，這才是比較關鍵的。"],["葛委員如鈞：講起來是很容易，所以我們接下來就是要看數字，好不好？然後也要看成果。目前零零星星的成果，一千塊以上占56%，這都不是我們要的。不要持續消極被動，希望主動積極。","接下來，賴準總統提出行動Active、創新Innovative內閣，難道是因為沒有行動力、沒有創新嗎？在講現在嗎？我們來講一下創新的部分。主席，有請數位部產業署黃科長。"],["主席：請數位部。"],["葛委員如鈞：因為我時間有限，所以你一邊移動，我一邊說明。今天數位部列席，書面報告只提到強化檢舉平台資訊安全，剛剛文化部次長已經跟你們求救，很多平台業者的數位能力不一樣。創新不是只改變程式碼就可以，我們來看一下，韓國SK集團打算利用Avalanche的區塊鏈技術和NFT非同質化特性做未來票券。全球最大的票券平台Ticketmaster去年也推出了區塊鏈代幣門控（Token Gating）的功能，請問數位部，目前有沒有蒐集國內外用科技或是區塊鏈技術來遏止黃牛的案例？甚至進一步進行相關的研究？臺灣ArcherSwap有做過了，國外則有OpenSea，有沒有研究過？有或沒有？"],["林副署長俊秀：過去在研究……有研究過……那個OpenSea。"],["葛委員如鈞：有？有沒有相關報告？網路上面有嗎？有沒有研議未來的作法？有沒有給予支持？有沒有連結文化部做跨部會合作？"],["林副署長俊秀：這部分目前沒有做，但我們會積極來跟文化部討論。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想臺灣是科技之島，希望數位部能夠跨部會來協助文化部，真的是要用魔法來打敗魔法，我們真的是不能被動，必須要更積極。","接下來想跟次長分享兩項訊息，在此先請教一下次長，知不知道「母湯」是什麼意思？"],["王次長時思：臺語的「不行」。"],["葛委員如鈞：臺語的「母湯」，你很瞭解，我也很瞭解，但我們問了Meta這家公司新釋出的最強、最強大的Llama 3 AI，問它說你知道「母湯」是什麼意思嗎？結果它說是「母親的湯」，很溫暖，像母親煮的湯一樣，你如果覺得電影很好看，就要說「好母湯」。一樣的問題我們拿去問臺灣的AI計畫TAIDE 7B的版本，得到的答案是「母湯」就是厲害到不行，你看到一個運動員比賽很優秀，就說「這下子他母湯了」，所以次長，我們下一次到電影院看電影如果覺得好看，是不是要說「母湯、母湯」？我在此先強調一下，這不是TAIDE不好，而是他們沒有得到足夠的訓練和資料，這是非戰之罪，但是如果在AI的時代，我們造成了文化覆滅，這不是我們要看到的問題。","我們接下來再問您，這個人物、電影人物，我們應該要叫蜘蛛人還蜘蛛俠？在臺灣。請回答，這是一般文化的問題喔。"],["王次長時思：我平常是叫蜘蛛人。"],["葛委員如鈞：另外一個電影明星，你要叫他李奧納多，還萊昂納多？"],["王次長時思：臺灣的翻譯應該是李奧納多。"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，接下來還有更多的例子，這是沙丘走紅的Zendaya，結果他在臺灣大概有幾十種藝名，有人說他叫千黛亞，某一間公司說的，另外一個電影公司說他叫辛蒂亞，中國大陸稱贊達亞，結果現在我們在網路上跟AI對話，講來講去，臺灣的名字根本就消失了，為什麼？因為你一大堆亂七八糟的名字。對文化部來講，我們沒有任何的指引，沒有任何的立場，我就在此請教一下文化部，我們要不要乾脆放棄臺灣的譯名啊？我們接下來都採用中國大陸的譯名，我們就投降好了，我們要不要做投降宣言啊？還是我們要講清楚，臺灣應該有沒有什麼方法來做這些譯名的一致性，要還是不要？要投降還是不投降？"],["王次長時思：我想文化內容的主體性，跟臺灣自己在這些……"],["葛委員如鈞：我們要不要一致？"],["王次長時思：我想應該是要有方法來訓練這些AI，讓它有更多的臺灣內容的資源，才會回答出正確的答案。"],["葛委員如鈞：AI的資料靠大邊走，我們有沒有可能以官方的立場，由文化部來鼓勵建立一個全球電影相關譯名上映的資料庫，來跟AI好好的協作？有沒有機會研議？"],["王次長時思：這個我們來研議。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝。接下來，Llama 3我們剛剛看到這個「母湯」，也是對我們這個文化慢慢的變成邊緣，我們臺灣可能會在AI時代變成文化難民，我手邊有文化部提供給國科會TAIDE的資料清單，礙於版權因素，很多都是藏品、館設介紹等等，資料嚴重不足。反觀我們的鄰國日本，早就已經大膽All in AI，無論版權、官方允許，任何資料都用於訓練人工智慧。請教次長，文化部是不是可以針對本身所擁有的資料庫藏品，研議進一步全面開放給TAIDE訓練使用？未來申請文化部補助的案件，是不是可以研議在一定的限度之下，必須將成果開放給TAIDE，或者其他臺灣支持的大語言模型來使用、訓練？"],["王次長時思：可以，這個我們來研議。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，以上兩點希望文化部可以加強與藝文界的溝通，並著手進行相關的研議，將研議成果於一個月內以書面回復本席，可以嗎？"],["王次長時思：可以。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝。文化部最近砸了八千多萬弄了一個歌仔戲，很多人有很多的意見，我們先不管，如果能把這樣的戲曲資料、劇本開放用來訓練AI，讓外國朋友、外國AI都能更瞭解臺灣的戲曲，這不是很好嗎？但是為什麼我們的這些資料都不公開呢？到底是不敢被他們看，還是怕被他們發現錯誤呢？我想國科會接下來還會持續進行大語言模型的訓練，我們現在只有7B可以開源商用，13B只能學研用途，資料還是嚴重不足，M公司的400B都已經在訓練當中，很快要釋出了，為了臺灣能夠持續保有文化自主性，這個我相信都是跨黨派的意思，我們在相關其他強勢的中文語言模型之下，一定要見縫插針。相較於豐沛的其他類型中文資料，繁體中文的資料本來就稀少，我們一定要跨部會，尤其是文化部將資源匯聚，臺灣才有可能在中文的語言模型，AI的下一個世代，找到我們臺灣自己的定位，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝葛如鈞委員，謝謝各位。"],["主席（郭委員昱晴代）：接下來請我們的召委柯志恩。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","范雲","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","黃珊珊","黃捷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","邱志偉","張啓楷","羅智強","林倩綺","林楚茵","劉建國"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列\n席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.83971875,"end":16.56846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.12471875,"end":21.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.660343750000003,"end":22.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.617218750000003,"end":41.070968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.67846875,"end":76.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.70659375000001,"end":97.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.61971875,"end":95.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.10846875,"end":199.29096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.71284375000002,"end":210.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.75346875000002,"end":214.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.37784375,"end":210.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.00221875000003,"end":211.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.66409375,"end":219.89534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.68096875,"end":215.25471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.89534375000002,"end":253.00409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.96596875000003,"end":305.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.35846875000004,"end":307.74659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.39596875,"end":312.16784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.65284375000005,"end":317.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.82159375000003,"end":315.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":317.50034375,"end":324.85784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.56784375,"end":319.10346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.09909375,"end":320.28471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.27971875000003,"end":325.73534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.24971875,"end":348.68534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.00596875,"end":350.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":350.33909375,"end":405.33471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":405.67221875,"end":407.51159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.76471875000004,"end":410.26221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.62909375000004,"end":412.27034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.69221875000005,"end":414.09284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":415.13909375000003,"end":416.69159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.69159375000004,"end":421.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.42909375000005,"end":424.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.18409375000005,"end":470.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":470.97846875000005,"end":476.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.88909375000003,"end":476.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":478.06596875,"end":485.27159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.46596875000006,"end":484.51221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":484.76534375000006,"end":497.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.60721875,"end":498.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.32846875,"end":500.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":500.03721875,"end":552.2990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.61096875000004,"end":500.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":552.53534375,"end":561.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":562.4578437499999,"end":562.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.60534375,"end":598.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":598.4015937500001,"end":631.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":632.55659375,"end":632.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":632.5734687500001,"end":635.2565937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.194,"end":15.497,"text":"謝謝主席。有請文化部王石思次長、體育署鄭世忠署長以及內政部警政署林明佐警政監。謝謝。"},{"start":28.883,"end":29.804,"text":"一文票券移送案件五件"},{"start":47.999,"end":75.957,"text":"體育署這個更誇張四個多月具體成效只有民眾檢舉案件兩件我就在此請教一下文化部體育署跟警政署難道這些零零星星的案件就是這個聯合打牛一年的懲治成果嗎難道二指黃牛完完全全是一般民眾的責任嗎對於主動查緝的成效這是未提可不可以回答我是不是民眾檢舉才是我們唯一的做法是或不是"},{"start":78.051,"end":97.72,"text":"不是,因為其實為什麼案件變得很少很關鍵的原因是因為其實從去年修法之後我們有跟這些售票平台跟主辦單位來做協商所以大量的演唱會尤其是特別受歡迎的演唱會幾乎都採了實名制所以打得很好嘛,是不是?沒有,它在整體來說數量確實是有下降的"},{"start":98.981,"end":117.777,"text":"我們就認為你們都一致我們來看一下打開社群軟體隨便一看張學友、IU Energy的門票每一個演唱會出來大家都集體哀嚎甚至有人說臺灣就是黃牛天堂我們再來看一下以這個特區B為例原票價是5000多塊結果轉售價額3萬多塊甚至顯示曾經高達7萬塊漲幅高達1000%超過12倍"},{"start":126.504,"end":131.789,"text":"剛剛已經都提過了花錢事小萬一被騙勒剛剛市長也很謝謝你說有知道現在黃牛現在要變成詐騙黃牛了這個真的是非常危險但是您說成效很好我們來看一下從去年5月到今年3月"},{"start":142.458,"end":157.812,"text":"將藝文票券以超過票面金額定價販售者．被檢舉的案件一共580件．其中加起來56%加價金額都低於1000元這跟我們認知的黃牛產業是完全不同的"},{"start":158.793,"end":180.835,"text":"結果我們看到了很多我們據悉我們去了解以後發現．很多都是不熟悉法律規範的學生．或者是朋友．他們只不過在轉售票券的過程當中．無意間加上一些手續費所犯下的案件．結果你們文化部的書面報告在結語了之後說．做得很好加價轉售機率大幅下降．"},{"start":181.896,"end":198.954,"text":"實際上我們認為根本沒看到滿天的老鷹在飛還沾沾自喜的覺得打了一堆小鳥想請教一下次長文化部到底針對黃牛的案件到底是要打老鷹還是打小鳥到底要主動還是被動可不可以分享一下"},{"start":199.724,"end":219.146,"text":"跟委員說明以張學友的案件來說現在我們已經接獲了112件那有14件都已經在調查那有些現在已經甚至在進行監警員的到場的一個陳述所以是要打老鷹馬的啦所以我們下一次我們就來看一下這個案件是不是又是1000塊囉其實最重要的事情是不要再有黃牛這才是比較關鍵的事情"},{"start":220.207,"end":233.833,"text":"講是很容易講但我們接下來就是要看數字好不好然後我們也要看成果零零星星的成果一千塊以上佔56%這都不是我們要的不要持續的消極、被動希望主動、積極"},{"start":235.214,"end":249.043,"text":"接下來賴準總統提出的行動Active創新Innovative的內閣難道是因為沒有行動力沒有創新嗎在講現在嗎我們先來講一下創新的部分主席有請數位部產業署署長黃興富科長好 數位部請"},{"start":254.165,"end":260.35,"text":"因為我時間有限你一邊移動的時候我就先一邊說明今天數位部來列席書面報告只提到了強化檢舉平台資訊安全但剛剛我們文化部次長已經跟你們求救了很多平台業者的數位能力不一樣但我們來講創新不是只是改變一些程式碼就可以我們來看一下韓國的SK集團打算利用Alpha Launch的區塊鏈技術和NFT非同質化的特性來做未來票券"},{"start":282.788,"end":305.773,"text":"全球最大的票券平臺Ticketmaster．去年也推出了區塊鏈代幣門控Token Gating的功能．請問一下數位部．目前有沒有收集國內外．用科技甚至是區塊鏈的技術．來遏止黃牛的案例．甚至進一步進行相關的研究．台灣有ArcaSwap有做過了．國外有OpenSea．有沒有研究過．有或沒有"},{"start":313.856,"end":325.508,"text":"有嗎?那有沒有相關的報告?網路上面有嗎?有沒有研議未來的做法?有沒有給予支持?有沒有連結文化部來做一些跨部會的合作?"},{"start":328.774,"end":348.38,"text":"我們會積極來跟文化部這邊來討論我想台灣是科技之島希望數位部能夠跨部會來協助文化部真的是要用魔法來打敗魔法我想我們真的是不能被動要更積極接下來想跟次長分享兩項訊息在此先請教一下次長知不知道母湯是什麼意思"},{"start":349.14,"end":353.562,"text":"台語的母湯嘛對啦你很了解我也很了解但我們問了這個Meta這家公司新釋出的最強最強大的拉瑪山的這個AI問他說你知道母湯是什麼意思嗎就他說是母親的湯啦很溫暖啦像母親煮的湯一樣你如果覺得電影很好看就要說好母湯啊"},{"start":372.429,"end":389.34,"text":"一樣的問題我們拿去問臺灣的AI計畫臺德7B的版本得到的答案是母湯就是厲害到不行你看到一個運動員比賽很優秀就說這下子他母湯了所以次長我們下一次到電影院看電影看得好看是不是要說母湯母湯我再此先強調一下這不是臺德不好"},{"start":393.863,"end":410.154,"text":"而是他們沒有得到足夠的訓練和資料這是非戰之罪但是如果在AI的時代我們造成了文化覆滅這不是我們要看到的問題我們接下來再問您這個人物、電影人物我們應該要叫蜘蛛人還蜘蛛俠在台灣請回答這是一般文化的問題我平常是叫蜘蛛人那另外一個電影明星你要叫他李奧納多還萊昂納多"},{"start":422.689,"end":438.183,"text":"臺灣的翻譯應該是李奧納多很好接下來還有更多的例子這是沙丘走紅的這個Zendaya結果在臺灣大概有幾十種藝名有人說他叫千代亞某一間公司說的另外一個電影公司說叫新帝亞中國大陸稱讚達亞"},{"start":440.865,"end":444.428,"text":"結果現在我們在網路上跟人家對話講來講去台灣的名字根本就消失了為什麼因為你一大堆亂七八糟的名字我們對文化部來講我們沒有任何的指引沒有任何的立場我就在此請教一下文化部我們要不要乾脆放棄台灣的藝名"},{"start":457.938,"end":458.558,"text":"我想文化內容的主體性跟台灣自己在這些"},{"start":478.103,"end":496.789,"text":"我想應該是要有方法來訓練這些AI讓他有更多的台灣內容的資源才會回答正確的答案AI的資料靠大邊走我們有沒有可能以官方的立場由文化部來鼓勵建立一個全球電影相關藝名上映的資料庫來跟AI做好好的協作"},{"start":497.679,"end":522.026,"text":"有沒有機會演繹啊?這個我們來演繹好 謝謝喔那接下來拉馬山我們剛剛看到這個母湯也是對我們這個文化慢慢的變成邊緣啦我們台灣可能會在AI時代變成文化難民我手邊呢有這個文化部提供給國共會台的資料清單礙於版權因素很多的產品管轍介紹等等資料嚴重不足"},{"start":522.486,"end":551.706,"text":"反觀我們的鄰國日本早就已經大膽all in AI．無論版權、官方允許任何資料用於訓練人工智慧請教次長．文化部是不是可以針對本身所擁有的資料庫產品．研議進一步全面開放給台德訓練使用．未來升級文化部補助的案件．是不是可以研議在一定的限度之下必須將成果開放給台德．或者其他台灣支持的大圓模型來使用訓練"},{"start":552.727,"end":560.903,"text":"以上兩點希望文化部可以加強與藝文界的溝通並著手進行相關研議將研議成果於一個月內書面回覆本席"},{"start":564.132,"end":584.663,"text":"謝謝文化部最近砸了8000多案弄了一個歌仔戲很多人有很多的意見我們先不管如果能把這樣的戲曲資料劇本開放用來訓練AI讓外國朋友、外國AI都能更了解台灣的戲曲這不是很好嗎但是為什麼我們的這些資料都不公開呢到底是不敢被他們看還是怕他們被發現錯誤呢"},{"start":587.344,"end":589.046,"text":"我想國科會接下來還會持續進行大圓模型的訓練我們現在只有7B可以開源商用13B只能學研用途資料還是嚴重不足"},{"start":598.639,"end":619.771,"text":"M公司的400B都已經在訓練當中很快要釋出為了台灣能夠持續保有文化自主性這個我相信都是跨黨派的意思我們必須要在相關強勢的其他中文語言的模型之下一定要見縫插針相較於豐沛的其他類型的中文資料繁體中文的資料本來就稀少"},{"start":620.171,"end":630.942,"text":"我們一定要跨部會尤其是文化部將資源匯聚台灣才有可能在中文的語言模型AI的下一個世代找到我們台灣自己的定位謝謝好 謝謝葛如鈞委員 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裡面有一項降階"},{"start":115.984,"end":143.432,"text":"那麼比方來講一個服役4年的上校因為其他的事故遭受處分降監而不是刑事訴訟的那麼他從上校變到中校退他中校退後他所享有的子女的教育輔助反而比原本上校要享受的待遇好那在對處分的條例上我是覺得在國防部那邊要做探討因為剛剛你已經提到了我們現在是以中校做一個"},{"start":144.252,"end":144.572,"text":"另外就是就業部分﹚"},{"start":170.345,"end":190.385,"text":"輔導榮民就業與提供榮眷救養的諮詢服務採雙軌並行制共創雙贏的大局這個我們非常肯定那剛才救養部分也聽到了善用愛心與耐心協助榮民榮眷生活檢討針對救養金部分剛才您提到了從14000提升到了15000"},{"start":191.946,"end":192.066,"text":"主席"},{"start":208.633,"end":234.996,"text":"建議分兩個部分第一個退輔會相關的資產依據國有財產法定定這個管理那麼加強相關法律機制我這是一個建議啦預防私有企業希望以OBT的這個方式啊協助可能會產生一種轉移的資產這個我們要注視這個法律的合作那最後的建議加強與國防部合作"},{"start":236.272,"end":262.353,"text":"協助新進人員了解與退輔會的互動關聯以法規為基礎協同國防部為戰傷的傷殘的當事人與家齡盡力照顧我們也特別感謝今天各個榮民醫院的院長提出的照顧我們這點確認對維護國軍官兵士氣與人才招募能夠發揮關鍵的力量"},{"start":269.579,"end":286.437,"text":"最後一個小結就是因為馬上退輔會要面臨到70周年我們特別感受很深回顧歷史退輔會與時俱進完備全民國防制度在國家重大建設穩定社會醫療尤其是長照資源上貢獻盛聚"},{"start":287.398,"end":310.729,"text":"更在您主委的任內強化榮民、榮眷在就業、就學、就養的照顧關懷機制如今退輔會成為我們國家安全策略性的關鍵資產也就是是社會的韌性重要的一環我們期盼未來能夠秉持持續精進與創新的精神成就任重道遠的傳承使命謝謝主委的指導謝謝委員的指導好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151814","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151814","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6f6751abcd6fd56d112d28fff7690636534e2527b10508eeeccb487e2fda4bc7d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"09:47:37 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09:56:58","影片長度":"00:09:21","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-18"},"duration":561,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:56:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:47:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":287,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（9時47分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長和官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生，有請監察院李秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：秘書長好，請教秘書長，就你對中華民國憲法本文的瞭解，還有依大法官的解釋，在憲法本文當中監察院是不是國會？"],["李秘書長俊俋：現在已經不是了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是說在憲法本文的規定當中。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，本文是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那麼是什麼時候變成不是國會的？"],["李秘書長俊俋：1992年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：在1992年修憲之後？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，在修憲之後，我們將監察委員就變成了一開始是由國民大會，然後再變成是立法院來行使同意權。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，所以監察院本身過去是不是有很強的政治性格，如果它是國會的話？"],["李秘書長俊俋：它是國會，當然是有政治……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以它也擁有國會的調查權？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那當它變成不是國會的時候，修憲做了什麼事情？增修條文是不是把它說成要獨立行使職權？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：目前在憲政機關當中，明文規定必須獨立行使職權的有哪些？"],["李秘書長俊俋：監察院跟考試院，還有司法院。"],["鍾委員佳濱：考試院好像沒有。"],["李秘書長俊俋：有，考試院還是要獨立行使職權。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們在增修條文裡面沒有寫到啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有寫到考試委員，因為考試權的考試用人有很強烈的行政權的屬性。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以原來屬於國會權的監察權後來在被剝奪了國會身分之後，它就不再具有國會身分，它的調查權還是保留，但是對人員要求獨立行使職權。"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，這是釋字第325號的解釋。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，但是考試院的部分有很強烈的考試用人的身分……"],["李秘書長俊俋：它是考試行政。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是增修條文沒有要求它要獨立行使職權。"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很清楚。"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以監察院的提名當中，在過去我們看到了，你覺得民眾是不是還記得王建先生當過監委、當過院長？"],["李秘書長俊俋：他是第4屆的院長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那民眾是不是也瞭解張博雅女士擔任過監察院的院長？"],["李秘書長俊俋：第5屆的院長。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問他們當時在被提名的時候，剛剛在前面講過了，他是根據哪一款被提名的？"],["李秘書長俊俋：王建是依照第一款，他是立法委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他當過立法委員，那張博雅院長呢？"],["李秘書長俊俋：張博雅女士是依照第六款，她就是富政治經驗。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問監察院在他們兩位被提名的當下是不是已經失去了國會這樣的功能、性質，而是屬於要獨立行使職權的？"],["李秘書長俊俋：第4屆以後都是啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：都是嘛，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我要說的是，如果我們從憲法的沿革來看監委本身，當然我個人非常認同，前面有委員提出監察院應該早早廢除，有人不斷的口頭說要修憲來廢除，但是修憲的部分，是不是政黨能夠真心誠意的共同來推動，而且真心誠意的在公民投票的時候去推動，讓國民複決，讓這個修憲通過？你覺得是不是主張的政黨應該心口齊一，在選舉、在公投的時候持續來作出他們的主張？"],["李秘書長俊俋：第8屆跟第10屆有組修憲委員會，我有看到民進黨的提案，我沒有看到國民黨的提案。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好的。那我們也看到了，包括18歲公民權，縱使各黨都在立法院通過提案了，在大選的時候，在公民投票的時候也很明顯的顯現出態度的不一啦！所以我覺得要做憲政改革不要嘴巴說說，也不是政黨提案啦！真的要真正提出憲法修正案的時候，要在公民投票的時候落實去推動啦！","我們來看一下，是不是可以請你們針對這個議題，即第一款跟第六款的問題，在過去監察委員的提名當中，請整理一下用第一款跟第六款提名的監委名單給本院，可以嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：多久可以？"],["李秘書長俊俋：今天下午就給委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，今天就可以。接下來我們來看一下，要求監委要獨立行使職權，跟司法院、跟法官……我們來看一下，2011年法官法直接要求法官退出政黨，有這個規定啊！但是根據臺師大的一位學者的研究，到目前為止，所有三級三審的法院，目前只有這樣子推估，他說，推估這些現職的法官95%以上是國民黨黨籍，但是到目前為止，只有這些比例20%、30%、50%的法官有發聲明退出政黨。我想請教秘書長，如果你覺得要確保監委跟司法院、跟法官一樣可以獨立行使職權，是不是退出政黨更為有效？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這是一個可以考慮的方向，各政黨現在有不同的規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，所以我當然是認為要在嘴巴上去說修法，已經定的法有沒有辦法落實都還是個問題呢！退出政黨更為乾脆。好，我現在回過頭來要詢問，目前監察院因調查涉國家機密而需出境審查者有多少人？目前你們自己監察院的部分，請教一下。"],["李秘書長俊俋：監察院所有的監察委員都是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：都是？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：然後呢？還有沒有？"],["李秘書長俊俋：還有像我秘書長也是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：還有沒有？公務員也有……"],["李秘書長俊俋：還有我們調查處有涉及國家機密的，都在列管範圍裡面。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我之前也問過，監察院行使調查權，因為涉及到國家機密，出境必須受限制，在兩岸人民關係條例當中有提到，關於第二款，相關機關包括監察院，從事涉及國家安全、利益或機密業務的人員。我看到你們的統計，離職未滿三年的，監察院還在列管的有12人，政務人員有16人，包括全體的監委，是不是這樣？好，那我們看到國家機密保護法，這些人出境，機關首長要審核，包括什麼？辦理國家機密事務的人員，依照國家機密保護法，你們列管了多少人？"],["李秘書長俊俋：國家機密保護法列管……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我幫你統計出來了，44人，請問你認為監察院有沒有，立法院同樣是比監察院更可能接觸國家機密的地方，我們立法院有沒有，我們倒過來，我們來看一下，監察委員有保障，對不對？依照國家機密保護法，你們要求要保密，有什麼洩漏的話由紀律委員處理，請問你認為這些調查權的限制，這些赴中、到其他國家的限制是自我閹割，還是對於監委行使職權的保障？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我跟委員報告兩個部分，國家機密保護法規定得非常清楚，是有涉密的人員需要管制。另外，赴中、赴大陸地區，這個兩岸人民關係條例第九條就有規定了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是。"],["李秘書長俊俋：只要是公務員就受到限制。"],["鍾委員佳濱：公務員？那麼監察委員也包括在內？"],["李秘書長俊俋：監察委員也包括在內。"],["鍾委員佳濱：立法委員也包括在內？"],["李秘書長俊俋：赴中都要申請。"],["鍾委員佳濱：立法委員有沒有包括在內？"],["李秘書長俊俋：立法委員應該也是吧！"],["鍾委員佳濱：立法院的職員也包括在內？公務員也包括在內？只要涉密……"],["李秘書長俊俋：公務人員更是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問到目前為止……"],["李秘書長俊俋：簡任以上一定要……"],["鍾委員佳濱：到目前為止，就你所知道，立法院有沒有去做這些人員的管制？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我不知道。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你不知道？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這是貴院的權責。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我來告訴你，我直接點出，在本月（4月）17日外交及國防委員會有關潛艦國造的秘密會議當中，有黃仁委員與會，但是他在4月26號陪同傅總召去中國面見中國的政協主席，你認為這樣的一個情況，包括黃仁委員在內，那天的會場工作人員是不是已經屬於涉密人員了？如果以監察院的標準來看，你認為你們監察院會不會對這樣的人員進行管制？"],["李秘書長俊俋：立法院不是我們管轄的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我是說以監察院這樣的秘密會議，你們會不會管制？"],["李秘書長俊俋：如果依據兩岸人民關係條例，簡任十職等以上，涉及國家機密，赴大陸都要申請。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我來告訴你，立法院從未依法提列人員清單，他也沒有去申報，對於立法委員這些人員，如果立法院未提列、沒有提列，負責的公務員有沒有怠惰？有沒有怠職？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個由立法院來決定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是立法院決定啊！如果有人提出、跟監察院檢舉說，立法院負責該項業務的職員、公務員，他有怠惰，他沒有依法將這些涉密人員列入清單，也無從申報、無從管制，請問監察院這個時候會不會需要調查？"],["李秘書長俊俋：如果是公務人員的話，我們會調查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你們會調查？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那我們現在先口頭跟你報告、提出，希望你們就這些期間以來，立法院包括立法委員在內，涉密人員赴中，而立法院沒有落實法律的規定……"],["李秘書長俊俋：跟鍾委員報告，立法委員不是我們管制的對象……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我不是說管制立法委員，我是說有立法院裡面的公務員……"],["李秘書長俊俋：如果是公務員的話就是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：必須對這些人進行管制，但是他沒有做，他就怠忽職守，那要不要接受監察院的調查？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個我們可以調查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，我這邊先提出來，我會正式的請監察院，就立法院未對於立法院當中包括立法委員在內，涉密人員赴中，並未依法提出管制清單，這樣的行政怠惰，我請監察院來調查，可以嗎？可以接受嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：好，請鍾委員提出來。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位陳俊宇委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","徐巧芯","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","羅智強","林思銘","黃建賓","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","柯建銘","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王鴻薇"],"page_start":335,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","co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那張柏雅女士是依照第六款他就是負政治經驗請問他們兩位的被提名的當下是不是已經失去了國會的這樣的一個"},{"start":141.531,"end":141.912,"text":"監察院早早廢除"},{"start":158.2,"end":158.4,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":179.128,"end":180.269,"text":"持續來做出他們的主張。"},{"start":208.012,"end":209.212,"text":"法官法 直接要求法官退出政黨"},{"start":237.722,"end":265.802,"text":"有這個規定阿但是根據台師大的一位學者的研究到目前為止所有的三級三省的法院目前只有這樣子推估阿他說推估這些限職的法官95以上是國民黨黨籍但是到目前為止只有這些比例20 30 50的法官有發聲明退出政黨我想請教民主黨如果你覺得要確保我們監委跟司法院跟法官一樣可以獨立行使職權"},{"start":267.023,"end":267.263,"text":"目前監察院因調查"},{"start":289.658,"end":317.094,"text":"涉國家機密而須出境審查人有沒有有多少人目前你們自己監察院請教一下監察院所有的監察委員都是都是對然後呢還有沒有還有像我秘書長也是還有沒有公務員也有還有我們調查處有有涉及國家機密的都都都在好列管範圍裡面我之前也問過監察院行使調查權因為涉及國家機密出境居受限制在兩岸條例當中有提到這關於的第三第二款齁"},{"start":317.834,"end":342.592,"text":"相關機關包括監察院從事涉及國家安全利益或機密業務的人員那麼我看到你們的統計呢離職未滿三年的在監察院還在列管的有12人政務人員有16人就包括全體的見聞是不是這樣好那我們看到國家機密保護法這些人出境啊要做機關搜查要審核包括什麼辦理國家機密事務的人員國家機密保護法你們列管了多少人"},{"start":343.697,"end":347.402,"text":"立法院同樣是比監察院更可能就是國家機密的地方那我們立法院有沒有跟這個"},{"start":363.614,"end":379.911,"text":"監察委員有保障,國家經濟保護法,你們要求保密,有洩漏民主黨紀律委員處理,請問你認為這些調查權的限制,這些附中到其他國家的限制是自我閹割,還是對於監委行使職權的保障?"},{"start":381.173,"end":397.592,"text":"兩個部分我跟委員報告國家禁運保護法規定的非常清楚是有涉密的人員需要管制另外附中這個附大陸地區這個兩岸人民關係條例第9條就有規定了只要是公務員就受到限制公務員 那麼監察委員包括在內"},{"start":399.092,"end":410.456,"text":"檢察委員也包括在內啊 副總統要申請啊立法委員也包括在內立法委員應該也是吧那立法院的職員也包括在內公務員也包括在內公務員更是那請問到目前為止立法院"},{"start":416.158,"end":419.1,"text":"在4月17日外交國防委員會前建國造的秘密會當中有黃人委員與會"},{"start":433.752,"end":451.179,"text":"但是他在4月26號陪同副總召去中國面見中國政協主席,你認為這樣的一個情況包括黃任委員在內,那天的會場工作人員是不是已經屬於涉密人員了?如果以監察院的標準,你們監察院會不會對這樣的人員感知?"},{"start":453.736,"end":482.607,"text":"立法院不是我們管轄的法委我說以監察院這樣的秘密會議你們會不會管制我們依據如果依據兩岸人民關係條例檢認實質等以上涉及國家機密這個都要附大陸都要申請好那我來告訴你立法院從未依法提列人員清單他也沒有去申報這是立法委員這些人員那如果立法院為提列負責沒有提列負責的公務員有沒有怠惰"},{"start":483.564,"end":483.745,"text":"有沒有待職"},{"start":485.366,"end":514.283,"text":"這個由立法院來決定不是立法院決定,如果有人提出更正常的檢舉說立法院的負責該項業務的職員公務員他有怠惰他沒有依法將這些涉密人員列入清單也無從申報無從管制請問監察院這個時候會不會需要調查如果公務人員的話我們會調查你們會調查,好那我們現在先口頭跟你請報告跟提出希望你們就這些期間以來立法院包括立法委員在內"},{"start":516.193,"end":538.102,"text":"社密人員附中而立法院沒有落實法律的規定就進行管制的立法委員不是我們管制的對象我不是說立法院管制的對象 我說有立法院裡面的公務員 如果公務隊這些人進行管制那他沒有做 他就待乎職守 要不要接受監察院的調查這個我們可以調查"},{"start":538.302,"end":553.913,"text":"好 那我這邊先提出來我會正式的來請監察院就立法院未對於立法院當中包括立法院在內涉密人員附中並未依法提出管制清單這樣的行政的帶墮我請監察院來調查可以嗎 可以接受嗎好 請鍾委員提出來好 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09:55:46","影片長度":"00:06:40","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":400,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:55:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:49:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":614,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時49分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。部長，在我第一次跟您質詢的時候，那時候是為了藥價要砍價，這個當中您做了很多反質詢，我告訴您，我從民國84年健保署開辦，我的任期是到明年2月，總共有30年的聘書，歷經4位總統，我跟您討論藥價的時候，您跟我講了一句話，那時候大概是29年多，您跟我說我29年來都是錯的。所以，部長，我今天有兩個方式讓你選擇，第一個，你要收回這句話，還是你要收回我30年從衛福部發出來的聘書？請你做選擇！"],["薛部長瑞元：聘書是無從收回，至於我說的話是否是正確，我們大家都可以討論……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我擔任召集人，我主持共擬會議8年。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們大家都可以討論。"],["陳委員昭姿：你要收回這句話嗎？你說我29年都是錯的，你要收回這句話嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這大家可以來討論。"],["陳委員昭姿：什麼討論？就是你啊！就是你說的，你反質詢，我最後一張告訴你……"],["薛部長瑞元：這個不叫反質詢。"],["陳委員昭姿：整個投資不足、投資不足，然後管理失當，包括分級醫療沒有落實、以藥養醫，你說叫我拿出證據。","部長，我再告訴你，區區的衛福部醫院，你怎麼管理的？第一張，這麼基本的衛福部26家醫院，第一個，賴副總統承諾內閣單一性別不低於三分之一，雖然他也是大跳票。我們來檢視衛福部醫院，院長男女的比例是24比2，這兩個520還屆期任滿，搞不好你都換成男生，就是26比0；副院長是29比3。部長，臺灣醫界沒有女性人才嗎？請說。"],["薛部長瑞元：過去因為院長……"],["陳委員昭姿：就是沒有女性人才嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：院長、副院長過去……尤其院長是負責醫師，所以他一定都是由醫師來做。"],["陳委員昭姿：這跟男性、女性有什麼關係？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為早期的時候男性醫師占多數，女性醫師是比較少的。"],["陳委員昭姿：女性有22%，我查過了，也有五分之一。"],["薛部長瑞元：那要看是……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長不要找藉口！"],["薛部長瑞元：要看是哪一個時代。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我查詢的時候……"],["薛部長瑞元：現在當然多了。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我查詢的時候發現了一件事情，副院長是雙軌制，你有遴聘辦法、遴選辦法，但是有所謂的院聘副院長，還跑出一個助理院長。部長，可以這樣子嗎？它是正式職位嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：那都不是正式的。"],["陳委員昭姿：官網上可以張貼嗎？現在都還有所謂的院聘副院長，不遴選嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：都是要遴選的。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有，院聘副院長沒有遴選，就是院內自己聘，你也允許，衛福部的官網上都有張貼。你怎麼管理的？毫無章法！部長，院長重不重要？請問衛福部，院長重不重要？請問什麼時候要代理？"],["薛部長瑞元：代理當然是一個過渡期。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，過渡期，代理時間過長是不是好事情？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然不是好事情。"],["陳委員昭姿：不是好事情。我們上去查，網站上有很多沒有歷任院長，所以我就先排除，我找得到的部分請部長看一下，代理6個月、6個月、6個月，嘉義跟旗山我還可以理解，因為是偏遠地區，也許未必有人想去；嘉義有一任代理了12個月。部長，我知道所有的院長為什麼是代理0個月，是做得很好，因為院長任期屆滿的時候，前2個月就進行遴選，有些時候是到期才遴選，所以就會代理。代理越短越好，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然。"],["陳委員昭姿：因為要無縫接軌，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["陳委員昭姿：院長這麼重要，我們看下一張！衛福部桃園醫院2022年7月徐永年院長屆齡，任期滿，留了22個月的時間給誰？代理22個月。第一個，醫界沒有人才嗎？第二個，沒有人想去這個最肥的地方、轄下最大的醫院嗎？第三，這個代理院長不夠格嗎？既然代理22個月，為什麼不直接升他？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，今天答案已經出來了！我本來以為今天早上答案還沒有出來。王必勝次長是不是把這個位子空了22個月，等他自己過去？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有。"],["陳委員昭姿：沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有。"],["陳委員昭姿：他不去當院長嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：據我所知，他……"],["陳委員昭姿：他沒有要去當院長，好，我們等著看。"],["薛部長瑞元：他跟我講沒有。"],["陳委員昭姿：我們等著看，今天報紙已經出來了，一個人居然可以因人設事，堂堂一家公家醫院──桃園醫院22個月沒有正式的院長，是代理院長。"],["薛部長瑞元：那個時候是因為要準備醫學中心評鑑。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，部長說沒有，大家等著看！衛福部基隆醫院……不要把它當八卦，我是藥學專家，基隆醫院裡面是一連串的問題，在過敏史的地方……過敏非常重要，是規定放在病歷的首頁。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員昭姿：過敏史誰可以填？這個非常重要，因為過敏反應可能會致死。醫師在診間，病人告訴他過敏，確認才能填入。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，這個可以填。"],["陳委員昭姿：其次，護理師發現可能住院病人有問題，他跟臨床藥師或醫師確認才能夠填入，這個是非常重要的，填入就不能更改，這是一件事。第二個，這個小朋友6歲，醫師開處方一定要讀一下過敏史，免得開出會造成他過敏反應的藥品。醫師有一關。第三，藥師調劑的時候要再確認一次，藥師有專業，他必須再確認一次。第四，交付藥品的時候，必須再看一次有沒有過敏反應。至少有四關，四關它都過了。各位，這不是八卦，這對我來說是一個嚴重的藥品安全網大破洞。部長，我要求衛福部基隆醫院一週內交出報告。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個可以。"],["陳委員昭姿：這是個系統性問題，有四關關卡。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分已經做了初步的調查。"],["陳委員昭姿：我要求看這個報告，請送到我的辦公室，這樣可以吧？這個報告可以送來。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你那一句話還沒有收回。"],["薛部長瑞元：收回？收回什麼？"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請陳菁徽委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1","speakers":["王育敏","黃捷","蘇清泉","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","陳冠廷","李坤城","許宇甄","沈伯洋","王世堅","陳菁徽","王美惠","王鴻薇","張雅琳","何欣純","范雲","林思銘","林月琴","陳昭姿","廖偉翔","劉建國","黃國昌","林淑芬","陳俊宇","王正旭","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳亭妃","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","李彥秀","蔡易餘","莊瑞雄","楊曜","盧縣一","涂權吉","羅智強","黃仁","沈發惠","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一\n條條文修正草案」案；二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十\n九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案；三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例\n第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案；六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童\n及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之\n一條文草案」案；十一、委員李坤城等 22 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案；十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案；十\n四、委員廖偉翔等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草\n案」案；十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草\n案」案；十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十\n七、委員黃建賓等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草\n案」案；十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修\n正草案」案；十九、委員王世堅等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十、委員陳菁徽等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十\n一、委員王美惠等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二十\n二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員王鴻薇\n等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬\n具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二\n十六、委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委\n員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案；\n二十八、委員劉建國等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n委員柯志恩等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十、委員陳素月\n等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十一、委員范雲等17人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十二、委員林俊憲等21人擬具「兒童及\n少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十三、委員林思銘等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝\n削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十四、委員張雅琳等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條\n例部分條文修正草案」案；三十五、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條\n文修正草案」案；三十六、委員林月琴等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.68846875,"end":6.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.535968750000002,"end":9.177218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.446593750000002,"end":13.952843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.121593750000002,"end":19.133468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.84221875,"end":23.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.47034375,"end":27.672218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.80721875,"end":30.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.96284375,"end":33.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.40971875,"end":43.416593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.20971875,"end":44.69909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.95221875,"end":49.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.43659375,"end":55.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.055968750000005,"end":67.22721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.924093750000004,"end":66.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.36221875000001,"end":71.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.53034375,"end":73.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.31909375000001,"end":77.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.16659375,"end":78.63471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.41971875,"end":77.52096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.55471875,"end":77.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.79096875,"end":79.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.84971875000001,"end":80.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.26721875,"end":85.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.16096875000001,"end":87.59534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.45596875000001,"end":88.89471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.25721875,"end":94.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.51409375,"end":96.31971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.73721875000001,"end":100.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.79159375,"end":118.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.38784375,"end":121.14284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.05409375,"end":125.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.72846875,"end":130.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.95159375,"end":131.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.72784375,"end":137.83221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.92096875000001,"end":138.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.33846875,"end":144.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.83534375000002,"end":150.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.58596875,"end":149.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.86409375000002,"end":153.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.58534375000002,"end":155.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.14159375,"end":162.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.95909375000002,"end":165.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.06409375,"end":170.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.40159375000002,"end":173.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.59034375000002,"end":174.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.07534375,"end":176.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.76284375,"end":177.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.82596875000002,"end":185.84159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.78659375,"end":187.49534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.42346875,"end":188.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.26721875,"end":193.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.67159375,"end":194.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.81471875000003,"end":197.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.80596875,"end":199.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.25284375,"end":202.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.46346875,"end":203.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.05409375000002,"end":211.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.16784375,"end":204.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.14971875,"end":219.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.35534375,"end":222.37596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.72596875000002,"end":232.45034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.00721875000002,"end":244.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":241.107218750000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代理好代理是越短越好對不對因為要無縫接軌對不對院長這麼重要好我們看下一張"},{"start":246.96,"end":275.555,"text":"外福部桃園醫院2022年7月徐祐年院長介林任期滿,留了22個月的時間給誰?22個月,22個月代理期,第一個醫院沒有人才嗎?第二個,沒有人想去這個最肥養的地方嗎?這個最牆下最大的醫院嗎?第三,這個代理院長不夠格嗎?既然代理22個月,為什麼不直接生他?"},{"start":277.263,"end":301.829,"text":"因為...部長今天答案已經出來了我本來有今天早上答案還沒有出來王必勝院長、王必勝市長需不需要先把這個位置空了22個月等他自己過去?這沒有沒有?沒有他不去當院長嗎?據我所知他...他沒有要去當院長,好我們等著看他是不是跟我講沒有我們等著看今天報紙已經出來了一個人居然可以為人設室堂堂公家醫院22個月"},{"start":304.858,"end":308.333,"text":"禾園醫院22個院沒有正式院長是代理院長"},{"start":309.724,"end":334.493,"text":"那個時候是因為要準備一些專心點見。好!我們等著看!你說沒有!部長說沒有!我們大家等著看!等著看!好!外福部!基隆醫院!基隆醫院不要把它當八卦!我是藥學專家!基隆醫院裡面是一連串的問題。在過敏史的地方,過敏是非常重要,是規定放在病歷的首頁。過敏史誰可以填?這個是非常重要,因為過敏反應可能會致死的。"},{"start":336.374,"end":352.429,"text":"醫師在診間,病人告訴他過敏,做確認才能填入。第二個,可能住院病人護理師發現他有問題,所以他跟臨床藥師或醫師確認,才能夠填入。這個是非常重要,填入就不能更改。第一個,這是一件事。第二個,醫師開處方,這個小朋友六歲。"},{"start":353.51,"end":366.898,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":379.165,"end":399.418,"text":"部長,我要求基隆醫院、衛福基隆醫院交出報告,一周內交出報告,這個是個系統性問題,有事關關卡。這個部分我們已經做了初步的一個調查。我要求看這個報告,請送到我的辦公室來,這樣可以吧?這個報告可以送吧?好。部長,您那句話還沒有收回。收回?收回什麼?"}]}},{"id":"151812","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151812","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6579d24902cb65049656dd8af69baafbe34e2527b10508eeea5ed6df0179e1a205ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"09:44:15 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你來回答一下"},{"start":465.356,"end":470.157,"text":"委員好 我是就學就業處處長齊玉蘭跟委員報告您剛剛所提到的申請促進穩定就業津貼原住民是佔百分之七這是有出入的因為您的百分之七是這樣子我們在112年申請促進穩定就業津貼是749人可是你是用110好你把這個資料給我好你把這個資料給我其實我們實際也許可能有誤但是我們希望這個吐血我今天要表達是什麼"},{"start":494.284,"end":494.304,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"151811","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151811","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6932559dd094a53a5054712d423581dcc34e2527b10508eee10497944ed0372c35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"09:38:59 - 09:49:29","影片長度":"00:10:30","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月29日及5月2日二天一次會））","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":630,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:49:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:38:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":250,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（9時39分）先說一下，祝主席生日快樂，今天是主席的生日。"],["主席：通常到了這個年紀就不用再說生日快樂了，謝謝！"],["陳委員培瑜：依然是開心的事情。好，我們要進入正式的質詢，謝謝主席。有請文化部次長，還有金管會今天出席的同仁，謝謝。"],["主席：請次長，還有金管會哪位代表？劉萬基組長，是不是？好，謝謝。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝次長、謝謝金管會的同仁。我們來看一下，在修法完之後，我知道文化部非常積極，文化部同仁跟地方縣市政府的警政同仁真的非常地辛苦，可是我們之前為了修體育的條例、體育黃牛票的事情，我們辦公室在1月先召開了一個協調會，我們想要知道以文化部的經驗，可以提供給體育署更多積極的建議，讓相關修法可以快速進入軌道。可是我們在開相關的會議，幫文化部發現一個很大的行政上困境跟瓶頸。我們來看一下，目前我們只知道黃牛的帳號，可是帳號對不到人民這件事情，我們發現是很大的困境，也因為這個裁罰並不屬於刑事的部分，所以我們就沒有辦法要求警政單位給予協助，以至於行政調查作業就卡在這邊。我們後來知道，就是投影片上顯示的，文化部其實有發了兩次的公文給金管會，可是金管會都拒絕提供相關的資料。次長，您知不知道您的同仁遇到這樣的困境？"],["王次長時思：當然，我們有再跟金管會進行協調跟瞭解。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，我們來看一下，我們上個禮拜也才召開相關的會議跟金管會做了討論，其實我們認為在金管會對銀行法相對保守的解釋底下，我們當然認同不要輕易地給出很多有隱密資料的可能性，可是我必須要承認，當時大家在立法的時候，並沒有討論到這一塊，也因為沒有相關的執行經驗，所以現在回過來看，難道銀行法真的沒有可能在這件事情上先有一些作為嗎？我們找到了第四十八條第二項第四款，其實有機會保留主管機關可以協助的但書，次長怎麼看這件事情？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，因為這是一個相對強力的立法，如果我們要用其他主管機關規定的情況來做的話，第一，它需要明文，也就是還得修一個法，讓這個法源有所依據才行。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。"],["王次長時思：這個法的效力當然相對是強大的，因為它在有條件的情況下，取得民眾最隱密、最重要的資料這個關鍵，所以……"],["陳委員培瑜：可是聽文化部同仁告訴我們，其實只要取得相關姓名就可以。我們來看一下……"],["王次長時思：就是人別，對。"],["陳委員培瑜：上個禮拜在會議當中，確實我們也跟金管會非常積極地討論，希望可否有機會用暫行辦法先提供文化部相關調查的可能性，讓很多事情不要卡在所謂行政裁罰，就沒有辦法積極往下走，因為如果是這樣，就會出現剛剛其他黨的立委所質詢的，好像看起來相關執行效率很差，可是我真的要為文化部同仁喊冤，如果在這個情況下，確實很多事情就沒有辦法往下，所以我可不可以積極地拜託次長，是不是可以跟金管會，甚至請行政院提出跨部會協商的需求，讓金管會用暫行辦法來提供文化部相關調查的可能性？"],["王次長時思：我想任何可以取得資料讓黃牛的案子順利進行的方法，我們都願意嘗試。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。另外，文化部跟教育部其實在修法之後，我相信開始執行也遇到很多問題，所以我也要求文化部跟教育部要儘速召開會議，還有沒有後續修法相關的建議，搭配上現在執行的困難，這個部分也請次長協助。"],["王次長時思：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝。接下來，我們要討論全中運，次長請回，謝謝。金管會請回。","有請體育署署長。署長早安！"],["鄭署長世忠：陳委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：這次全中運我跟郭昱晴委員在開幕的時候到現場，在閉幕的時候我們也有過去。體育署是主辦單位，我們認為所有的賽事舉辦完之後，都必須要有很多討論跟調查，或者是檢討會議，以累積經驗，不然每次換到一個新的縣市，很多錯誤可能一再犯錯，對嗎？署長你認同嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，您講的沒有錯。不過這部分我們目前有兩個案子，分別給大專體總以及高中體總，針對所有的競賽規程、技術手冊及整個場布各方面……"],["陳委員培瑜：你知道我要講什麼，好，我們先往下看。但是有一個地方，署長一定沒有注意到，這次我去到閉幕現場，真的覺得非常不舒服的點，我真的誠心要說，禮賓人員全部都是中山女高的同學，身為臺灣第一位女性總統蔡英文總統，他就是中山女高畢業的，但是我們看到在閉幕會的現場，當然同學們非常積極、非常認真地付出，我們甚至也問了老師，可能只有志工服務時數，我們絕對要給予學生高度的肯定。可是我們發現體育署或者是主辦賽事的單位，對於禮賓人員的想像非常地封閉，甚至必須要說可能有一點父權，怎麼說呢？在2016年起，總統府在禮賓人員的選擇上就有不同的性別；甚至在2019年，當時是陳菊當秘書長，就讓女性的禮賓人員可以自由選擇服裝；可是我們看到在這一次體育署的主辦賽事裡面，在禮賓人員性別選擇上，甚至在衣服的選擇上，相對的還是封閉跟比較父權的思維。當然大家可能覺得看起來是小事，可是我必須要說，我們從總統府開始就已經做了示範，因為體育署會主辦全國非常非常多相關的賽事，是不是這個部分體育署應該更有一些想法？"],["鄭署長世忠：沒有問題，我們會把這部分列入未來的指引。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝署長。接下來，除了這個衣服之外，另外一個發生爭議的事情，我想署長一定非常清楚，這禮拜四就有臉書貼文，還有相關的新聞稿，體育署也說不會接受禁賽一年的處理，可是我要先問一下，體育署有跟當事人選手聯絡了嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：這部分我們是透過游泳界的在做一些指導，事實上，在幕後我們也是告訴這位教練、選手，他們其實是可以提出一些申訴跟一些聲音出來。"],["陳委員培瑜：所以你們其實並沒有直接跟選手聯絡？我們來看一下，署長，上一次我就問過關於滑冰選手拿國光獎章的事情，但這件事無涉獎金，我只是希望你們可以儘快跟選手及家長溝通。可是我們跟他們打聽了，到目前為止，你們都還沒跟他們溝通。我之前一直跟署長強調一件事，這些中學生運動選手的感受很重要，但從這次事情來看……我手上有份陳情書，如果署長要看的話會後可以給您。這是家長寫的陳情書，當中寫得非常清楚，他甚至翻了非常、非常多的法條，寫得非常完整。該名家長說，他可以接受孩子因為違規被取消這次參賽資格，可是他更心疼的是：孩子當場遇到的說法跟事後體育署、還有大會對外的說法，與他們在現場看到的事實非常不同！裁判長甚至還指責、指控孩子說謊，我覺得這部分爭議很大！署長，你自己身為父親，身為體育主管機關大家長，你一定對這件事情很有感受。"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，的確。但規則已經寫在那邊，至於競賽委員會在審查時的疏漏，這部分我們會改正。其實當下我們在幕後有指導，間接指導這一位家長教練來做這樣的事，其實我們是希望游泳協會這部分能進步，這也是為什麼我們會做……"],["陳委員培瑜：但主辦的還是體育署……"],["鄭署長世忠：是，沒有錯。"],["陳委員培瑜：我當然知道協會有其角色，相信署長也很清楚……"],["鄭署長世忠：所以我們才發了聲明，希望所有賽事都應該要改變觀念，這部分我們會去督促。"],["陳委員培瑜：因為時間有限，所以我快速跟署長溝通一下。我們要求裁判的第一優先是公立中正執行規則，而體育署作為主辦單位，更應該面對規則的罰則過於粗糙這件事。我們事後去看那個規則就知道，當中有非常多、甚至是很大模糊的空間，看起來似乎是為了保留給當場裁判的權限。目前看來卻造成很多爭議，讓現場很多家長與教練，還有選手非常痛苦。再來，面對爭議，我知道體育署有發新聞稿，署長也在自己臉書上寫了，但到底有沒有人在第一線、第一時間跟孩子溝通、跟選手溝通、跟家長溝通？"],["鄭署長世忠：有，溝通這部分有在進行，我們會再繼續改善。"],["陳委員培瑜：我相信署長剛剛說的，與運動相關的仲裁制度設計及完善的申訴救濟機制，讓整個事情能更制度化是署長所在意的，所以我們也希望後續體育署就這部分能再加強。"],["鄭署長世忠：是，沒有錯。"],["陳委員培瑜：可以再給我一點時間嗎？不好意思。我要講最後一件事，署長應該有看到這則禁藥新聞，對嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：我很清楚。"],["陳委員培瑜：好。我們當然知道手不能伸入與人事相關的事情裡，明明體育署每年都援助禁藥防制基金會上千萬，卻因為利益迴避問題而可能導致臺灣選手被禁賽，我想這點署長比我還清楚。我覺得這件事真的很不可思議，我知道體育界有體育界的慣例，目前我所聽到的消息，就如同剛剛署長所說的，有很多幕後消息說，這位老師會被力挺。我個人對人事沒有意見，但我考慮的是所有選手！這就如同署長自己在臉書上說的，所有教育及文化委員會的委員都在提醒您關注選手權益，站在維護選手權益上，我們是不是應該要正視這次事件與相關的人事風險，不要讓人情關係凌駕在選手權益之上？就禁藥防制與利益迴避這件事來說，我想體育署要有更多角色。再來，禁藥防制基金會目前設置的位置：桃園龜山文化一路兩百五十號，我故意把地址貼出來，我想署長應該非常熟悉。對與其相關的分工，體育署跟中華奧會應該要討論，維護其獨立性，避免瓜田李下，因為這一切都是為了選手權益。署長可不可以就這部分快速回應？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，這次事情其實我們還是有介入，基本上禁藥基金會屬於NADO，我跟他說，你們的專業其實在利益迴避上相關的法條都非常明確，如果你們自己對法條解讀不清，是不是應該直接向WADA釐清？所以不能說他們在檯面上有包庇，而是他們應該主動向WADA揭露，向WADA請教，看這樣的樣態是不是符合規定？如果不符合的話，當然該名組長就必須去職。這點不容懷疑。"],["陳委員培瑜：聽起來署長會積極處理這件事，以維護選手權益？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，以上，謝謝。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝署長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。接下來請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","范雲","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","黃珊珊","黃捷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","邱志偉","張啓楷","羅智強","林倩綺","林楚茵","劉建國"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列\n席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.48159375,"end":8.586593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.04221875,"end":12.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.379718750000002,"end":10.290968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.590343750000002,"end":13.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.83471875,"end":13.969718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.969718750000002,"end":14.695343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.84721875,"end":22.10346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.22159375,"end":24.719093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.512218750000002,"end":28.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.157218750000002,"end":93.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.67034375,"end":95.39159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.39159375000001,"end":95.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.47596875,"end":95.67846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.67846875000001,"end":95.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.79659375,"end":95.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.96534375,"end":133.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.01846875,"end":137.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.22471875000002,"end":137.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.40596875,"end":139.78971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.32971875,"end":160.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.92346875,"end":148.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.20846875,"end":203.13846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.35534375,"end":166.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":203.56034375000002,"end":210.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.46221875,"end":223.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.24909375000001,"end":231.65721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.63159375,"end":253.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.50909375,"end":235.06596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.06596875000002,"end":235.09971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":254.15159375000002,"end":265.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.12471875,"end":299.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.68034375,"end":332.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":332.56971875000005,"end":336.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.23159375,"end":353.05596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":353.08971875000003,"end":366.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":366.48846875000004,"end":429.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":425.78721875,"end":426.14159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":429.71909375,"end":452.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":451.53846875000005,"end":456.63471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":453.46221875000003,"end":455.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":455.36909375000005,"end":461.83221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.75221875000005,"end":460.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":460.85346875000005,"end":461.57909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.66346875000005,"end":461.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":461.83221875000004,"end":499.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":498.34971875,"end":502.19721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":500.39159375,"end":515.64659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.0522187500001,"end":512.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":512.30534375,"end":512.3390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":514.7522187500001,"end":514.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":515.7309687500001,"end":592.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":592.56284375,"end":592.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":592.59659375,"end":620.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":619.29284375,"end":626.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":622.1953437500001,"end":622.4990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":623.7309687500001,"end":624.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":625.09784375,"end":625.5534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.6459687500001,"end":627.6628437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":627.6628437500001,"end":630.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.76409375,"end":627.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":627.7978437500001,"end":627.9665937500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.174,"end":0.374,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":29.218,"end":56.205,"text":"委員好,好,謝謝次長,謝謝金管會的同仁,我們來看一下在修法完之後,我知道文化部非常積極,然後其實文化部的同仁跟地方縣市政府的警政同仁,其實真的非常的辛苦可是呢,我們之前為了這個修體育的那個條例,體育的黃牛票的事情我們辦公室在1月的時候先召開了一個協調會,我們想要知道以文化部的經驗如何可以提供給體育署更多積極的建議,讓相關修法可以快速進入軌道"},{"start":57.205,"end":77.589,"text":"可是我們在開相關會一幫文化部發現了一個很大的行政上的困境跟瓶頸我們來看一下就是目前我們只知道黃牛的帳號可是帳號對不到人民這件事情呢其實我們發現是很大的困境可是也因為在這個裁罰上它並不屬於刑事的部分所以我們就沒有辦法去要求請證單位給予協助那以至於在行政調查所以就卡在這邊"},{"start":81.59,"end":82.591,"text":"當然,我們有再跟金管會再做協調跟了解"},{"st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署長 早安這一次全中運我跟郭育群委員在開幕的時候到現場然後在閉幕的時候我們有過去可是對於這個體育組織主辦單位我們認為所有的賽事舉辦完之後都必須要很多討論跟調查或者是檢討會議累積經驗不然每一次換到一個新的縣市很多錯誤可能一再犯錯 對嗎 署長你認同嗎"},{"start":254.184,"end":278.646,"text":"報告委員您講的沒有錯不過這部分我們目前有兩個案子分別給導覽體總以及公眾體總針對所有的競賽規程、技術手冊還有整個操作各方面這個你知道我要講什麼嗎好那我們先往下看但是有一個署長你一定沒有注意到這是我去到閉幕現場我真的覺得非常不舒服的點我真的誠信要說禮賓人員全部都是中山女高的同學身為台灣第一位女性總統蔡英文總統她就是中山女高畢業的"},{"start":279.306,"end":297.525,"text":"但是我們看到在這個閉幕會的現場當然同學們非常積極、非常認真的付出然後我們縣市也問了老師可能只有志工服務時數我們絕對要給予學生高度的肯定可是我們發現體育署或者是主辦賽事的單位對於禮賓演員的想像非常的封閉甚至必須要說可能有一點賦權怎麼說呢"},{"start":299.767,"end":305.011,"text":"在2016年起總統府在禮賓人員的選擇上他就有不同的性別甚至在2019年當時是陳菊當秘書長的時候他就有讓女性的禮賓人員可以自由選擇服裝可是我們看到在這一次體育署的主辦賽事裡面相對的還是封閉跟比較父權的思維在禮賓人員性別選擇上甚至在衣服的選擇上當然大家可能覺得看起來是小事可是我必須要說我們從總統府開始就已經做了示範可是因為體育署會承辦全國非常非常多相關的賽事主辦"},{"start":329.947,"end":330.447,"text":"體育署有跟當事人選手聯絡嗎?"},{"start":353.437,"end":368.563,"text":"報告委員這部我們是透過游泳界的在做一些指導那事實上我們其實在幕後我們也是告訴這位教練選手他們其實是可以提出一些申訴跟一些聲音出來所以你們其實並沒有直接跟選手聯絡我們來看一下"},{"start":370.424,"end":397.017,"text":"其實署長如果你記得上一次我就跟您問過關於滑冰選手要拿那個國光獎章的事情無設獎金我也希望你們可以快速跟選手還有家長溝通可是我們到目前為止跟他們打聽了你們也都還沒有跟他們溝通我之前一直在跟署長強調一件事情就是孩子們這些中學生運動選手他們的感受我相信很重要可是以這一次事情來看我手上有一份陳情書如果署長你要看的話我等一下會後可以給您這是完整的家長"},{"start":397.857,"end":418.823,"text":"寫得非常非常清楚的陳情書他自己甚至翻了非常非常多的法條寫得非常完整我要說的是目前這個家長說他可以接受孩子因為違規被取消這一次參賽資格的狀況可是他更心疼的是孩子當場遇到的說法跟事後體育署還有大會對外的說法跟他們在現場看到的事實非常的不同甚至裁判長還指責"},{"start":420.123,"end":420.764,"text":"8位委員的確所以當然規則已經寫在那邊那是我們在競賽"},{"start":435.72,"end":461.36,"text":"委員會在當時在審查的時候的疏漏這部分我們會改正但其實當下我們在幕後是有指導間接的去指導這一位的加檔教練來做這樣的事情其實我們是希望能夠游泳協會能夠在這部分能夠儘速的去進步但是因為主辦還是體育署我當然知道協會有他的角色我相信組長我們都很清楚所以我後面才發一個聲明就是希望所有的賽事都應該要去改變他們的觀念那這部分我們會去督促"},{"start":461.86,"end":485.275,"text":"好 因為時間有限我是不是可以快速跟署長溝通一下目前我們希望要求裁判第一優先應該是公立中正執行規則而體育署作為主辦單位更應該要面對規則的罰則過於粗糙因為我們來看我們自己後來事後去看那個規則有非常多很大模糊的空間似乎看起來是為了保留給當場的裁判一個權限可是看起來我覺得目前造成很多爭議這件事情我覺得非常讓很多現場的家長跟教練還有選手非常的痛苦"},{"start":489.718,"end":514.456,"text":"面對爭議這件事情我知道體育署有發新聞稿署長你自己臉書有寫了可是到底有沒有在有人在第一線第一時間跟孩子溝通跟選手溝通跟家人溝通在高中體總的部分有在進行那再來就是我相信就是署長您剛剛說的相關的運動仲裁相關制度設計還有完善申訴救濟的機制這件事情我相信署長也會是您所在意的就是讓整個事情更制度化這件事情所以我們也希望後續體育署網這個部分再加強"},{"start":515.897,"end":542.687,"text":"可以再給我一點時間嗎?好不好意思好最後最後我要講最後一件事情我想這個禁藥新聞署長你應該有看到對嗎?我很清楚好那我們當然知道首不能深入相關的人士可是明明體育署每年都援助這個禁藥防治基金會上千萬可是因為利益防弊的問題它很有可能就導致台灣的選手被禁賽我想署長你比我都還要清楚可是我覺得這件事情真的很不可思議當然我知道體育界有體育界的慣例目前我所聽到的"},{"start":543.747,"end":558.557,"text":"消息就是如同你剛署長說很多幕後的消息說相關這位老師他即將他會被力挺我個人對人事我沒有意見可是我要考慮到所有選手就如同署長您自己在臉書上說的所有的教育文化委員會的委員都在提醒您關注選手權益這件事情"},{"start":559.718,"end":560.118,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":587.543,"end":595.147,"text":"這次其實我們還是有一介入啦那我基本上我們跟他所謂的我們進教基金會這邊屬於我們的NATO我們剛剛說你們的專業其實在利益迴避上有相關的法條都很非常的明確那如果你們法條上自己解讀不清是不是應該直接向WADA來做一個釐清所以他們其實沒有報應該不能說檯面上的包庇而是他們就主動向WADA來揭露來跟WADA請教這樣的樣態"},{"start":616.098,"end":616.238,"text":"主席陳委員"}]}},{"id":"151810","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151810","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e64a21fefd06c96acc12d28fff7690636534e2527b10508eee9d0dce7f622c2f575ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"09:36:09 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什麼人出來參加的輔選其實當了監察委員以後 給你李軍你現在貴為秘書長你叫你去人家輔選的時候 你也淡淡你知道嗎我沒有輔選 我進監察院以後就沒有輔選"},{"start":322.453,"end":323.514,"text":"所以這個是大家現在提這種案的時候你會發現看起來是合理但很多時務上都不可能發生"},{"start":340.64,"end":340.72,"text":"主席"},{"start":355.854,"end":367.537,"text":"本席倒是也持開放的一個態度但是在立法理由裡面說明裡面提到說參照公務人員任用法第28條對公務人員消極資格的一個認定這個我看起來就更奇怪了公務人員任用法第28條裡面去所談到的裡面"},{"start":377.321,"end":402.279,"text":"這一些來看本席來看的話很多可能對於其他監察委員整個公正執法的一個公正性來看的話有更高的標準其實我覺得是好事我覺得是好事但是呢那其實啊這個在監察院這一些自律規範裡面真的是不夠嗎或者是監察院自己的自律規範你們的監委是都不準時委嗎"},{"start":403.519,"end":403.679,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":421.957,"end":435.167,"text":"可能你也稍微會知道 左邊現的 左邊現的就是說說到侯友宜的案件我們整個 你們覺得他在4月24號約談的新北市市長"},{"start":437.512,"end":453.767,"text":"整個案子大家會看幾十年前的一個案子突然你們去起調查的時候正在藍軍比較有政治性的一個立場來看的話他當然會有所疑慮的按照監察院調查案子的方式裡面常常有一些委託調查的"},{"start":455.248,"end":456.549,"text":"1989年世界台灣同鄉會總幹事羅育士闖關遭到強制驅逐案"},{"start":473.104,"end":502.12,"text":"社會大眾可能會認為說會這樣幾十年前的事你現在是來衝這條會不會有大家覺得政治性或針對性太高的問題請你回答我說明一下這個自動調查案有兩位委員提出的自動調查案那他們主要的目的是要追求真相因為有人檢舉嘛所以他們要追求真相那其實這個送到懲戒法院即使我們彈劾成功送到懲戒法院懲戒法院也都不受理了因為已經超過追溯時期了會不會被"},{"start":504.877,"end":522.924,"text":"所以這兩位委員有新聞稿說明說他們認為真正重要的是追查真相不追查真相才是對不起國民其實本席也倒認為像這種著名的一個案件有時候去做一個追查倒也不是說監察院是過度的一個政治性就像你說的"},{"start":524.404,"end":526.687,"text":"這個案子35年,可是有更久的、社會大眾更期待的那個44宗的臨災血案。這部分"},{"start":544.624,"end":565.035,"text":"經過40幾年我相信倒也沒有什麼敏感性的問題了因為畢竟國民黨過去的一個威權體制底下幹的特務幹的這種慘絕人寰的事情民眾也不會覺得意外但只是說怎麼樣讓他浮現出來對社會有一個交代對受害者"},{"start":565.896,"end":567.497,"text":"這個部分我的了解是有受到部分阻礙"},{"start":592.816,"end":597.864,"text":"主藍喔?主愛喔?主愛喔?就是很多過去的資料沒有辦法再查到"},{"start":599.079,"end":626.466,"text":"可不可以簡單講一下,不然實在是你既然說就說一半,受到一些阻礙。這個部分現在還有我們的委員繼續在調查當中,那過去確實有很多資料檔案或是怎麼樣已經被銷毀了,所以還沒有完全查得清楚。銷毀喔?銷毀的部分是對整個案情有重大影響的嗎?這個部分我不便在這邊透露。"},{"start":629.194,"end":638.897,"text":"我是認為監察院這個地方反而要加把勁,35年前的案你就要調查案,44年前的案這有意願的調查啦有關的部分的政治證據確實現在有所困難,然後我們繼續在努力當中真的要努力啦好不好,好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151809","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151809","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6aac04562955ebf1e656dd8af69baafbe34e2527b10508eee2a5e3ee0d4b51e7c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:32:48 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麻煩主委請馮主委主委早 我們在這個辦公室的空間也認識快8年了希望將來還有機會一起聊聊一起分享你的人生智慧經驗我現在請教你三個課題"},{"start":26.513,"end":45.907,"text":"第一個今天新聞已經報了中共要辦百年黃埔100團一團30人就3000個我們官校畢業退伍的學長們去廣東那我們摘要一下陸軍官校的歷史我相信主委比我更熟"},{"start":47.438,"end":72.112,"text":"我們國家的陸軍官校在1924年6月16號創建於中國廣東省黃埔區那1927年遷到南京1937年遷到成都1946年改稱中華民國陸軍軍官學校1950年在台灣的鳳山高雄鳳山副校這段歷史維基百科寫的很清楚"},{"start":72.992,"end":93.137,"text":"第二個事情是原來在中國黃埔區的軍校其實從解放軍燒殺擄掠之後1949年12月根本就廢校到現在了1949年就在黃埔區就弄一個遺址紀念碑後來50年代放個紀念碑已經廢校到現在"},{"start":93.971,"end":95.274,"text":"黃埔軍校同學會1984年6月16日"},{"start":103.268,"end":106.65,"text":"我現在先請到第一個問題你覺得中共到底有沒有資格辦黃埔百年"},{"start":130.465,"end":150.958,"text":"當然沒有資格,但是他要辦的話是統戰的意圖,我們也阻止不了當然,他在他們的國家辦,但他們要辦這個黃埔百年其實蠻諷刺蠻笑話的,當年就是被他滅掉的嘛我可以直接講,我不相信我們有3000人要到那邊去"},{"start":151.977,"end":154.258,"text":"陸軍官校畢業的學長們應不應該去參加中國統戰部轄下的黃埔軍校同學會在廣東所辦的黃埔百年這個活動"},{"start":174.465,"end":203.565,"text":"因為新聞是這樣報嘛他想要辦百團啊對但是作為一個退輔會主委你對這些畢業的學長有沒有什麼建議說法我個人絕對不相信會有百團要去而且到達三千人我絕對不相信那對於執意要去的這些人你有沒有什麼勸他們的話當然他們上面寫的是落地這個接待嘛但是我想"},{"start":205.66,"end":230.414,"text":"假如他們三千人我們假設三千人去了那你既然那麼喜歡那邊你乾脆就不要回來了嘛那你既然又要回來那表示我們這裡當然有他優勢的地方讓他願意留在這邊的地方去那個地方呢毫無意義坦白講在中國的所謂的老校友你上次說的不是死了就投降的"},{"start":231.803,"end":232.743,"text":"委員我還有一個想法今天這些人要去"},{"start":259.827,"end":259.947,"text":"主委"},{"start":288.487,"end":317.134,"text":"社會構成的因素有很多社會組成的看法也很多元但不管怎麼多元看法怎麼不一樣沒有像侵略者卑躬屈膝的道理特別是黃埔這兩個字在中國代表他們的勝利他們的殲滅對我們來講是一個堅毅不拔重新復效了所以我是希望退輔會有些情緒可以去消化掉但有些事情不能做就是不能做我接下來要請教你下一個課題"},{"start":319.949,"end":325.256,"text":"這個我們常常在委員會提到我們退伍軍人的教育補助費那"},{"start":326.915,"end":350.287,"text":"這個教育補助費目前是在中校以下那我們也放了一段時間現在有一個時空背景的改變第一個行政院已經開始補助私立大學學費每學年每年補助到這個三萬五千元那公立大學的話每一年補助大概是兩萬元左右也就是說以往"},{"start":351.047,"end":375.226,"text":"行政院沒有這個補助他放在教育部那邊那我們退伍軍人在退輔會這邊的教育補助費呢私立學校的距離就是7萬多我們補助7萬多塊那公立大學的補助呢距離就差27,200但現在因為行政院的整體支出已經補助35,000元公立大學補助2萬元等等"},{"start":376.365,"end":385.113,"text":"所以我們原來在退輔會補助退伍軍人的學費跟預算支出的距離拉近了大概減了一半"},{"start":386.328,"end":408.261,"text":"所以實質上我們現在運作的制度是小朋友讀大學爸爸如果有退輔會的這個補助的資格他可以二折一我要嘛就選擇教育部的補助三萬五要不然我就選擇退輔會的補助七萬一千六所以那個差額大概差別在三萬多塊跟以往零跟七萬一千六距離比較遠所以整體我們"},{"start":409.261,"end":434.16,"text":"退輔會跟教育部整體行政院在退伍軍人教育補助費這樣的差額事實上是縮短的因為你那邊增加一個新的福利政策那是好事我們希望幫讀私立大學的孩子們撐一把讓他負擔輕鬆一點所以本席算了一下如果用行政院整體預算支出的規模來看現在把上校以上的子女教育補助費納入"},{"start":436.421,"end":453.006,"text":"實質預算並沒有增加因為那個私立大學跟公立大學在教育部那一塊已經有個金額在那邊處理了我現在是一個退伍的上校還是讀大學我可以選擇教育部那一塊就補助三萬五但是因為現在退輔會沒有嘛否則退輔會是補助七萬一千六百塊嘛"},{"start":453.686,"end":470.095,"text":"所以這個距離拉近了預算算起來因為上校以上的退伍軍人佔10%以下的佔90%所以整體行政院的預算支出其實在教育補助費這邊差距是往下降的所以本席是建議"},{"start":472.116,"end":473.097,"text":"委員我對這個委員的建議感到非常的感佩"},{"start":493.442,"end":504.809,"text":"但是我還有一個想法把這個上校教育補助費取消是因為有一個橫貧的一個說法那我們為什麼不能夠把軍工教一體"},{"start":506.275,"end":526.473,"text":"來作務這些學生一起來提升我們退輔會大概只能處理退輔軍人我如果要問你公教的話我就越權了所以你先不要講到公教那一塊公教他們上班的狀況跟軍人還是不一樣我們軍人停留年一到我升不上去就退了公務員不犯法大概可以坐到65歲這不一樣的狀況我是覺得"},{"start":530.316,"end":548.858,"text":"原來是要增加預算支出1億多那10%的上校以上但是因為行政院已經增加了教育補助費私立大學給你3萬5公立大學給你2萬1千6所以這個距離我特別強調是距離已經拉近了所以我們實質的支出其實是往下降這時候把上校以上納入的話"},{"start":549.699,"end":551.14,"text":"李文宗副主委"},{"start":575.315,"end":586.086,"text":"李文忠副主委代表我們臺灣的退伍軍人退輔會到歐洲這比較罕見我們以往都跑美國的退伍軍人協會那他這一次到歐洲到底拜訪哪些國家他去歐洲去了"},{"start":590.987,"end":607.066,"text":"有三個國家這個國家裡面中間有些是中途人家來邀請的還可以這樣子對我覺得是這個方面是一個突破但是委員我想我會請李副主委到您辦公室"},{"start":607.947,"end":608.227,"text":"有沒有邀請對方來台灣互訪?"},{"start":638.703,"end":658.401,"text":"這個當然是有而且我們希望以後能夠增加一些交流裡面的實質內容在可見的時間內最後題目時間到了在可見的時間內這一些國家的退伍軍人的會長相關總會長你預計今年會不會來台灣訪問今年的預算沒有但是明年我們已經編列了"},{"start":660.239,"end":660.339,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151808","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151808","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6a7d0b617444feb99055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eee231dcb1897cc80d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:40:17 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09:40:13","影片長度":"00:02:43","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":163,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:40:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:37:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.88596875,"end":10.814093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.62409375,"end":19.31909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.79159375,"end":23.976593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.63471875,"end":34.135343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.47284375,"end":34.79346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.04659375,"end":45.66096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.06596875,"end":49.710968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.01471875,"end":59.414093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.852843750000005,"end":62.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.282843750000005,"end":65.08409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.32034375,"end":68.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.49284375,"end":70.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.73721875000001,"end":83.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.39346875000001,"end":84.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.72221875000001,"end":90.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.18971875000001,"end":101.73659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.77034375000001,"end":101.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.95596875000001,"end":107.01846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.40659375000001,"end":110.81534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.11909375,"end":114.40971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.76409375,"end":119.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.74221875,"end":121.10909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.54784375000001,"end":135.48659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.11096875,"end":136.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.85346875000002,"end":139.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.19471875000002,"end":144.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.17284375,"end":155.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.31471875,"end":156.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.61409375000002,"end":161.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.16596875000002,"end":163.00971875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.231,"end":0.796,"text":"私民委員說明"},{"start":10.399,"end":31.12,"text":"謝謝主席。我們針對兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案本席提出我的提案說明。我想近幾年未成年性剝削的案件是層次不窮。過去針對性剝削的相關的案件我們看到我們的法院判刑都非常的輕微。"},{"start":31.921,"end":46.46,"text":"只要這些被告這些犯罪的罪犯的他這個表示他有悔悟然後坦承不會通常就會受到這個緩刑的一個判決所以這個在判決部分的可以說非常的輕一直到"},{"start":47.32,"end":76.475,"text":"黃紫嬌這位藝人加入創意私房購買相關的兒童性剝削影片這類的案件才受到我們的司法、衛福及法務部門的重視受害的兒童及少年身心都可以說受到非常嚴重的迫害且所需療癒的時間非常漫長這都是我們難以想像的因此必須透過修法來遏止這些惡意製造、散佈或持有兒童"},{"start":76.996,"end":77.798,"text":"因此本席的提案"},{"start":86.002,"end":106.798,"text":"除了提高刑罰與罰金外我們也要求相關的主管單位必須建立兒少性剝削犯罪的資料庫並公布犯行者的姓名與相片於主管機關的網站上提供民眾來查詢讓這些不法的業者或犯罪者"},{"start":107.638,"end":134.89,"text":"讓他們的姓名公諸於世,讓社會、大眾、大家共同來對他們提出譴責。此外,除了強暴、脅迫與意圖營利等犯罪態樣外,本席也特別提案將那些使用不法取得兒少性剝削物品來恐嚇他人生命、身體、自由、名譽或財產、幣置身、危害安全的犯罪者加重其懲處。"},{"start":136.181,"end":162.242,"text":"最後現今這些犯行透過網際網路也因此必須將數位發展部列為我們的主管機關之一更要要求網際網路的平台服務提供者於規定時限內主動通報並增加犯罪者輔導教育之時數以實際嚇阻相關犯行的一再發生以上敬請各位委員支持好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151806","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151806","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e68e1f4dbc11096b5b054712d423581dcc34e2527b10508eee1d216fa11ae63dd35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:25:39 - 09:38:55","影片長度":"00:13:16","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月29日及5月2日二天一次會））","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":796,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:38:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:25:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":166,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時25分）主席謝謝，麻煩請文化部次長、體育署署長及數位發展部代表。"],["主席：請3位代表，謝謝。"],["王次長時思：委員早。"],["鄭署長世忠：委員早。"],["洪委員孟楷：我先請教鄭署長另外一個議題，也是大家非常關注的，體育署關心地方政府優化一些球員場地，其中包括職棒場地的部分，我們看到最近有兩個場地被大家拿來比較，一個是桃園，大家過去認為桃園球場排水不利，但是經過桃園市政府的修繕之後重新開放了，反而以前會淹水的地方，現在不會淹水了。對比高雄澄清湖棒球場，今年終於有台鋼要把它當主場，沒有想到在上禮拜居然發現球場裡面有30公分的L鐵條插在紅土裡。署長，有沒有注意到這個新聞？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我有打電話去請教運發局局長，這是單一事件，他的回應是他們懷疑應該是之前排水工程不小心遺落下來的，他們有用金屬探測器把全場掃描過一遍，應該是沒有其他的疑慮了。"],["洪委員孟楷：怎麼會那麼離譜？在一個球場裡面有L鐵條，而且是30公分的L鐵條，還好發現得早，不是讓球員發現，不是在比賽途中發現，不然很有可能會造成選手受傷、球員受傷。針對這樣的狀況，球員工會也說應該要再去處理和瞭解，現在是單一個案而已嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：目前是，他們後面也在中華職棒聯盟的建議之下，用金屬探測器整個掃過了，後面不會產生這個問題才對。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果是這樣的話，本席都不禁懷疑，這是不是之前就已經留下來的鐵條，本席也看到體育署之前有補助澄清湖棒球場做這些整建工程。"],["鄭署長世忠：這一件不是體育署補助的，我們最後一次補助澄清湖案子是106年。"],["洪委員孟楷：2017年，對不對？所以這個案子不是體育署補助。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是在球場裡面發現有鐵條，其實是非常離譜的事情。"],["鄭署長世忠：這部分我們也是請運發局要特別關注施工品質。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果真的是施工品質有問題，尤其是驗收有沒有確認到底有沒有人為疏失？"],["鄭署長世忠：他們還在調查當中。"],["洪委員孟楷：體育署能不能要求地方政府什麼時候給體育署回報？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，因為這個案子畢竟不是我們補助的，可能有困難，但是我們還是會請他們說明，我再來跟委員報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：我覺得重點在於體育署身為中央主管機關，尤其是各球場的部分，沒有錯，這個案子不是體育署補助的，但是高雄市政府在4月初也發了新聞稿表示要積極爭取體育署之後的球場補助，如果是這樣的施工品質，我真的很難想像體育署補助更大筆的錢，施工品質要怎麼把關？"],["鄭署長世忠：這部分體育署會來加強。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以還是要請體育署確認這有沒有人為疏失，以及後續的懲處，好嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：再來，請問次長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：我確認一下，現在新法上路之後，你們已經有裁罰，針對檢舉黃牛的部分，文化部有提供相關獎金嗎？"],["王次長時思：有，有檢舉獎金。"],["洪委員孟楷：目前發了多少檢舉獎金？"],["王次長時思：檢舉獎金目前已經發出去四萬八千多，還有五萬多還在持續……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們的檢舉獎金已經發了幾筆？"],["王次長時思：有3件4萬6,840元是已經發了，另外還有14案還沒有發，因為這14案有一些狀況需要做最後的確認，包括有的是匿名、有的是訴願被撤回，其中甚至有牽涉到恐嚇取財，所以還沒有發出。"],["洪委員孟楷：OK，這3件已經確定的檢舉獎金都是有抓到相關的黃牛，對不對？"],["王次長時思：對，是本案成立的情況上。"],["洪委員孟楷：剛剛本席看到體育署的報告裡面有1件六千多元，相對來講，這也可以讓民眾瞭解，現在我們是真的抵制黃牛這樣的行為，因為我們不希望黃牛的行為助長，很多人講市場是一個供需，但是我們希望大家循合法管道購買，不要找黃牛買票。如果真的有檢舉獎金，也應該適時的讓大家知道，現在看起來體育署已經有第一件出來了，文化部這邊有3件。但是再拉回來，次長，你有沒有注意到現在黃牛擔心售黃牛票會吃上刑責，而竟然改賣假票來詐騙，有沒有注意到這樣的新聞？"],["王次長時思：有，其實委員非常清楚這個狀況，現在最困擾的不只是黃牛，而是詐欺，它轉成詐騙，所以我們也要提醒，現在購買黃牛票的風險會更高，不只是要付出很高的代價，更重要是可能根本沒有那張票，所以針對詐欺的狀況，刑事警察局也有提高對詐欺的偵查，我們覺得這也是黃牛票的類型裡面現在的趨勢。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是本席真的很納悶，誠如跟剛剛萬委員質詢的地方一樣，在過去這一年裡面，各部會都已經討論非常多次，包括藝文票、體育票，我們都希望告訴大家正確的觀念以及要防堵黃牛文化的惡行，但沒想到黃牛現在好像反而變本加厲，從原本賣黃牛票而已，現在變成改做詐騙犯。"],["王次長時思：以數量來說是下降的。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們要做的到底是什麼？立法院修法是為了要對付黃牛，怎麼感覺反而導致黃牛變成詐騙集團，會不會讓大家覺得我們好像越打越詐？"],["王次長時思：委員，就數量整體來說其實是下降的，包括委員應該有看到之前媒體報導所謂專業經營黃牛搶票程式的，也都移出臺灣或是歇業，所以整體大規模搶票的數量是下降，但是還是像委員剛剛所說的，市場有需求就會轉化成其他的方式，道高一尺、魔高一丈，詐欺的方式是我們認為現在新的方式。"],["洪委員孟楷：我請教一下，剛剛次長也特別提到兩點，一點是專業經營，一點是有一些售票網站做得比較好，可以防止這種專業的掃票機器人。"],["王次長時思：對，它的程式做得比較好。"],["洪委員孟楷：你們掌握有多少專業經營的黃牛集團在臺灣橫行？"],["王次長時思：之前媒體報導至少有兩家，就是有規模化的，譬如有雇員在做專業搶票，我們知道的有兩家。"],["洪委員孟楷：目前這兩家的蹤跡還有在臺灣嗎？"],["王次長時思：第一個，他們有說停止了、公司解散，有一家是改到國外去，不做臺灣市場，因為臺灣有刑責的問題。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以刑責還是會有一定的嚇阻作用。"],["王次長時思：我想應該是一定有的。"],["洪委員孟楷：另外，剛剛你提到有一些售票網站相對來講是做得比較好的，有哪些售票網站是做得比較好的？"],["王次長時思：委員，我再私下跟你說，因為有……"],["洪委員孟楷：這不是私下，因為現在在討論，我覺得這很務實。次長，我要釐清一個觀念，今天並不是要探詢什麼商業機密等等，而是售票網站有很多，你既然已經提到有一些售票網站做得比較好，確實有把掃票機器人排除在外，你應該要以這樣的條件和規範來要求其他售票網站也可以一起來做。如果其他售票網站做不到的話，是不是能夠請數發部協助技術的支援，或是能夠怎麼提升，把這個門檻整個加高，而不是每一次售票的黃牛行為都變成是消費者去承擔，不是嗎？"],["王次長時思：第一個是協助的部分，其實這些售票平臺有自己的資訊部門，我們的確有跟他們洽談，希望他們提高這個技術，但是這個資訊部門也牽涉到投資進去的經費，所以我剛剛為什麼……"],["洪委員孟楷：投資多少經費可以讓文化部次長覺得這個售票網站是比較好，可以掃除掃票機器人？"],["王次長時思：這些比較專業投資多少錢的事情，其實我們並不知道，要看售票網站的經營及售票網站的規模，跟他想要達到的效果，由它的……"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，這個就是積極度與否。我覺得也請署長、次長都要一起來瞭解，因為剛剛我跟萬美玲委員在臺下，當然這是抓署長的語病，可是你的書面報告是講，你會積極地呼籲黃牛不要以身試法，我們現在想說：哇！政府機關到最後的作法、結語是積極地跟黃牛喊話，你們不要再來買黃牛票了，還給消費者。不對！積極用錯方向。如果剛剛依照次長的邏輯，這一點也是我們認為應該要從根本下手，如果售票網站可以加強資安，讓掃票機器人沒有辦法有作用的話，當然就可以還給一般普羅大眾，大家就各憑本事，今天我開3個手機、5個手機去搶票，至少我是真人，我請兄弟、姐妹、爸爸、媽媽幫忙一起搶，我覺得這都還是情有可原，因為我搶票是為了我自己去看，但是如果有人用程式、惡意地去掃票，他就是想要圖利、想要營利……"],["王次長時思：不一樣，沒錯。"],["洪委員孟楷：你剛剛說有些售票網站做得比較好，可以排除掃票機器人，我們就應該去瞭解這個售票網做得比較好，它是投資了多少錢？假設500萬就可以排除掃票機器人，講不客氣的，我們就要求其他售票網站也要比照辦理，否則在整個公平的智慧平臺、公平的自由市場上，你可能就會造成犯法的漏洞。"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，因為它畢竟……"],["洪委員孟楷：應該是由主管機關要有一點作為，不管是強制力也好，不管是誘導也好，不管是相對補助也好，我覺得都應該去做，提高掃票機器人進入的門檻，讓整個售票還給一般自由大眾市場，不是這樣子嗎？"],["王次長時思：我想要求他們跟協助他們，是我們非常樂意去做的，包括輔導他們，但因為它是自由市場……"],["洪委員孟楷：是！但目前做的程度，聽起來就是沒有。"],["王次長時思：有。我們其實是很積極的跟這些售票平臺溝通，委員可以看到每個演唱會主辦單位一出來，我們就會立刻跟主辦單位跟售票平臺聯絡，只要有消息，我們就趕快去請他們採取比較有效的措施。"],["洪委員孟楷：次長，我知道你今天很積極地搶話……"],["王次長時思：不好意思。"],["洪委員孟楷：我希望你防堵黃牛的積極態度，也跟在委員會備詢時搶話一樣積極就好。","最後我只提醒，因為現在黃牛還有變種，不只是賣票，他們故意賣其他的部分，像賣麥克風一萬塊送兩張原價的演唱會票，有沒有看到這種樣態？"],["王次長時思：有，這也被我們當作一個個案類型……"],["洪委員孟楷：有看到嘛？"],["王次長時思：有。"],["洪委員孟楷：這種樣態能不能被檢舉？"],["王次長時思：可以被檢舉。"],["洪委員孟楷：明明賣一支筆一萬塊，但是送兩張原價票，醉翁之意不在酒，他根本不是要賣這支筆，其實他是要賣那兩張票，那兩張票就是變形的黃牛，這樣的樣態可以被檢舉？"],["王次長時思：可以，綁物的部分……"],["洪委員孟楷：你們有查獲這樣的狀況嗎？"],["王次長時思：目前這個部分還在查察，我們還沒有特定的個案可以看到是因為綁物販售而被定罪的，但這個的確是……"],["洪委員孟楷：是不是能夠找法務部門也來研議，就是要提出指引給販售網站或者是一些網購平臺，這樣的樣態其實也是符合黃牛條款，也是會有刑責的。"],["王次長時思：瞭解，可以。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候能夠做到？是不是開會討論？"],["王次長時思：可以。"],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對不對所以說這一個案子不是體育署補助但是會這樣工程裡面發現球場裡面有這種鐵條其實是非常離譜的事情"},{"start":156.194,"end":173.733,"text":"這部分我們也是請運發局這邊特別要關注那個施工的品質而且到最後如果說這個施工品質有問題那尤其是驗收有沒有確認是說到有沒有人為疏失他們還在調查當中體育署能不能來要求我們地方政府這邊什麼時候來給我們體育署這邊做回報"},{"start":175.094,"end":198.563,"text":"報告委員因為這個案子畢竟不是我們補助的可能有困難但是我們還是會請他們說明我再來跟委辦這邊跟本委員報告我覺得重點在於是體育署身為我們中央主管機關尤其是各球場的部分因為本期看到沒有錯這個案子不是體育署補助但是高雄市政府在4月初也發一個新聞稿說要積極爭取體育署之後的球場補助"},{"start":201.224,"end":209.672,"text":"所以如果說用這樣的一個施工品質的話我真的很難想像說體育署如果補助更大筆的錢我們的施工品質要怎麼把關所以還是要請體育署這邊來確認說這有沒有人為疏失那以及後續的一個懲處好嗎好 謝謝來再來 次長"},{"start":219.497,"end":236.402,"text":"委員好確認一下說我們現在這個新法上任之後我們有總共裁罰那我們如果說真的有檢舉的這個黃牛的一個部分我們有提供相關獎金嗎有有有檢舉獎金那檢舉獎金目前發了多少費用檢舉獎金目前已經有48000多吧已經發出去還有5萬多還在持續幾筆我們檢舉獎金已經發了幾筆"},{"start":249.005,"end":267.41,"text":"有三件46840元是已經發了對另外還有14案還沒有發那因為這14案有一些狀況需要最後的確認包括有的可能是匿名有的是有訴願可能被撤回或者是有牽涉到一個其中有甚至有牽涉到恐嚇取材所以還沒有發出"},{"start":268.19,"end":291.186,"text":"但是這14件這三件已經確定的檢舉獎金都是有抓到這個相關的黃牛嗎?對不對?對對對是本案成立的情況下那體育署這邊剛本席有看到就是說你的這個報告裡面是有一件對不對?6000多塊所以本席講是說這相對來講也可以讓這個民眾來了解就是說現在我們是真的"},{"start":291.946,"end":292.286,"text":"李宗盛議員"},{"start":317.916,"end":346.998,"text":"市長有沒有注意到現在黃牛說擔心受黃牛票吃上刑責而竟然改賣假票來詐騙這個有沒有注意到這樣的一個新聞現在其實委員非常清楚這個狀況現在其實最困擾的不只是黃牛而是詐欺就它轉成詐騙所以我們也要提醒就是說現在購買黃牛票的風險會更高它不只是說你要有很高的代價更重要的是你可能根本沒有那張票"},{"start":347.799,"end":351.841,"text":"所以在這裡 詐欺的狀況讓行政長大局也有提高他們整個針對詐欺這一塊的偵查那也是黃牛票的這個類型裡面我們覺得現在的趨勢了是啊 但是本席真的很納悶就是說現在跟連同剛剛我們萬委員之間質詢的地方一樣"},{"start":366.767,"end":394.134,"text":"就是說我們已經在過去這一年裡面大家各部會都已經討論了非常多次包括說藝文票包括說體育票我們就希望是告訴大家正確的觀念以及我們要防堵這樣子的一個黃牛的一個文化惡行但沒想到黃牛現在好像反而變本加厲從原本賣黃牛票而已現在變成是改做詐騙犯那到底我們要去做的是立法院修法是要對付黃牛怎麼感覺反而是導致黃牛變成是詐騙集團"},{"start":396.077,"end":397.858,"text":"這會不會讓大家覺得好像我們越打越炸?"},{"start":425.216,"end":425.796,"text":"目前這兩家的中基還有在台灣嗎?"},{"start":454.918,"end":480.63,"text":"他們都在第一個是說他們有說不在台灣就是停止了公司解散那有一家是說他就改到國外去他不要做台灣的市場因為台灣有刑責的問題所以有刑責還是會有一定的嚇阻作用還是一般人我想應該是有一定有的那另外剛剛你有提到是說有一些售票網站相對來講是比較做得比較好有哪些售票網站是做比較好的"},{"start":481.204,"end":503.127,"text":"委員我再私下跟你說這不是私下不是因為會有市長本席因為現在在討論我覺得這很務實喔不是因為會有我現在講是說很多的售票網站不是市長我要釐清一個觀念今天並不是要探尋什麼商業機密或等等的部分而是售票網站有很多那你既然已經有提到是說有一些售票網站他做得比較好是確實有把"},{"start":504.028,"end":526.147,"text":"小票機器人給排除在外的那你應該是以這樣子的一個條件跟規範來要求其他的售票網站也可以一起來做那如果說其他售票網站做不到的話是不是能夠請速發部這邊來協助技術的支援或是怎麼樣能夠提升把這個門檻整個加高而不是每一次這種售票的黃牛的這樣的一個行為都變成是消費者大家去承擔啊"},{"start":527.528,"end":527.788,"text":"不是嗎?不是嗎?"},{"start":556.58,"end":568.696,"text":"這個就是積極度與否來 我覺得也請署長、次長這邊都要一起來瞭解因為剛剛其實我跟外媒領委員我們在台下當然這個是抓署長與並可是你的書面報告是講說你會積極的呼籲"},{"start":573.321,"end":596.808,"text":"黃牛不要以身試法我們現在講說哇我們的政府機關到最後我們的做法結語是積極的跟黃牛喊話你們不要再來買黃牛票了還給消費者不對積極用錯方向如果說剛剛依照市長你的邏輯其實這一點也是我們認為應該要從根本下手如果售票網站它可以加強它的資安讓"},{"start":598.128,"end":615.182,"text":"掃票機器人沒有辦法有作用的話那當然就可以還給一般普羅大眾大家就各憑本事我今天我開三個手機五個手機我去搶票至少我是真人我每個請兄弟姐妹爸爸媽媽幫忙一起搶我覺得這都還是情有可原因為我搶我是要為了我自己去看"},{"start":615.842,"end":634.279,"text":"但是如果說有人用城市二月去掃票那他就是想要圖利想要盈利那你剛剛講說有些售票網站他做得比較好可以把掃票機器人給排除那我們就要應該去了解這個售票網站做得比較好他是投資了多少錢假設500萬就可以有這樣的一個掃票機器人給排除的話"},{"start":635.16,"end":662.171,"text":"那講不客氣的我們就要求其他售票網站也要比照辦理否則你不應該在這整個公平的智慧平台公平的自由市場上你可能就會造成一個犯法的漏洞應該是有主管機關這邊要有一點不管是強制力也好不管是這個誘導也好不管是相對補助也好我覺得都應該來去做來提高這種少票機器人進入的門檻讓還給整個售票一般的自由大眾市場不是這樣子嗎"},{"start":662.731,"end":662.811,"text":"市長,說實在話,市長"},{"start":685.134,"end":713.808,"text":"我知道你今天很積極地搶話我希望你防堵黃牛的積極態度也跟在委員會備詢的時候積極搶話一樣積極就好最後我只提醒因為現在還有黃牛他們有變種就是不是只是賣票他們故意賣其他的部分賣麥克風一萬塊送兩張原價的演唱會票有沒有看到這種樣態有 這也被我們當作一個有被 有看到嘛那這種樣態能不能被檢舉"},{"start":715.461,"end":728.476,"text":"如果說我明明賣一支筆一萬塊但是我送兩張原價票那罪翁之意不在酒他根本不是要賣這支筆他其實要賣那兩張票那兩張票就是變形的黃牛那這樣的一個樣態可以被檢舉我們有查獲這樣的一個狀況嗎目前"},{"start":734.342,"end":758.835,"text":"這個部分還在查查我們還沒有特定的個案是可以看到是因為綁物的販售而被定罪的那這樣子是不是能夠找我們的這個法務部門也來演繹就說要提出指引給販售網站或者是說一些這個網購平台這樣的一個樣態其實也是符合我們的黃牛條款也是會有刑責的了解"},{"start":759.96,"end":765.607,"text":"可以什麼時候能夠做到是不是開會討論可以一個月內提出"},{"start":766.932,"end":773.636,"text":"請文化部召集相關單位一個月內針對這種變種黃牛的行為提出相關的指引辦法來要求業者不應該有這樣的一個變種黃牛的行為好 謝謝謝謝 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151805","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151805","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e67ae6fbd41f80c137055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eee1e55ec2f4bd2b2985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"09:35:23 - 09:37:29","影片長度":"00:02:06","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":126,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:37:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:35:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.98346875,"end":124.72034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.15909375000001,"end":125.90159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.594,"end":27.33,"text":"謝謝召委。我想去年修法我們提高了散布製造性影像的法則,那也增列了強化24小時的下架機制,那而且不下架可以立刻斷網。那因為這次的事件我們也看到這樣子的一個去年的修法還有不足之處。那我的版本提出了七個重點。"},{"start":28.01,"end":53.483,"text":"先談兩個就是有不少委員都有提到的就是針對兒少性向只要是付費觀看購買甚至下載就是犯罪鏈的一環那這次修法應該要納入讓犯罪的樣態更完善另外提高刑責的部分嚇阻犯罪也是蠻多委員有提到的那除此之外我的版本還針對這次我們看到我們去年修法去處理的因為反應來講"},{"start":54.423,"end":68.573,"text":"一般網絡平台收到通知之後基本上都會在24小時內下架而造現象可是這一次我們看到犯罪網站本身會利用在期限內下架單支影片規避責任不用被斷網"},{"start":69.634,"end":83.073,"text":"所以針對這個部分,我的版本首先提出情節重大的犯罪網頁,主管機關可以直接斷網,把犯罪網站跟一般網站做出區隔。那以上三點,看到衛福部的公開方向都支持。那最後呢,我跟婦女學校團體還有獨家提出四個重點。"},{"start":85.276,"end":110.449,"text":"第一個,針對散佈性影像,而且同時散佈兒少個資者,要加重二分之一刑責。第二個,網路誘拐兒少是一種新興犯罪行為,也應該納入兒少性剝削的範圍,從一開始就預防犯罪。第三,應該參考美國經驗,建立性影像資料庫,利用影像的DNA下架已經被認定違法的性影像,避免重複被傷害。最後呢,針對"},{"start":111.51,"end":126.169,"text":""}]}},{"id":"151804","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151804","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e67a94bb3db67e87aa12d28fff7690636534e2527b10508eeec4d3c1afc80b58e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:25:15 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提案人講的是這樣的人那樣的人我們還是有本院的同意權在行使阿要不是說總統提名誰就是誰"},{"start":630.376,"end":638.482,"text":"所以我個人認為我們請本委員會的各位委員大家三思今天這個法案我們在審查的過程中如果沒有高度的共識我個人認為是說我們應該花更多的時間來凝聚大家的共識之後我們再通過這個法案以上"}]}},{"id":"151803","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151803","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6da2d3a4153add523055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eeefae5102c225baa095ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"09:32:41 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09:32:39","影片長度":"00:01:42","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":102,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:32:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:30:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.13159375,"end":14.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.285968750000002,"end":52.275968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.25471875,"end":100.87596875000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.971,"end":29.002,"text":"謝謝主席那各位委員主席大家早安就是我先就我的提案做一個說明因為在這一次我的秀案上面分成三個部分第一個就是提高刑度和罰金那在刑度跟罰金基本上就是三、九條跟四、四條因為過去並沒有正當的理由持有兒童性影像的刑責跟罰金只有一年以下有期徒刑和三到三十萬所有的版本就是提高到一到三年把它提高到三年然後"},{"start":29.962,"end":33.025,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":53.328,"end":78.73,"text":"所以我希望大家可以來支持這個版本。再來最後一個部分就是我的條文裡面也加入了主管機關得於必要時公布犯人的姓名或名稱,就是要來約束我們的犯罪者,並進一步達到嚇阻的效果。其實這一條在《兒少全法》的第49條和第97條都有規定,但我也的確是可以給予主管機關一定的空間來決定要不要執行公開姓名的行動。"},{"start":79.731,"end":100.314,"text":"這次兒童性剝削防制條例的修法,我再次提出這樣子的內容,其實也希望讓大家一起來重新思考,到底我們給兒童犯罪者的空間,是不是反而助長了整體社會對兒童性剝削的漠視。以上說明,還請行政部名以及主席還有我們的委員給我的版本支持,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151801","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151801","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e646ed31985feff4ee656dd8af69baafbe34e2527b10508eee77e467243de167255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:21:56 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09:32:30","影片長度":"00:10:34","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告「退輔會服務照顧及相關救補助精進作為」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-15"},"duration":634,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:32:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:21:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":113,"blocks":[["羅委員美玲：（9時21分）謝謝主席，有請馮主委。"],["主席：請馮主委。"],["馮主任委員世寬：委員早安。"],["羅委員美玲：主委早安，謝謝退輔會長年以來致力於照顧我們退伍軍人跟他們的家屬，從身心健康的保護以及退伍之後的就業輔導等等給予各種幫助，我們也知道退輔會歷年來一直也都在致力於蒐整榮民的文物，甚至是記錄榮民口述的歷史跟影像，這些榮民伯伯其實就是歷史、戰爭的見證人，所以這些資料對我國歷史上來講，其實是一個很重要的紀錄，透過這些資料也可以讓國人更加瞭解我國歷史的一些發展。","本席今天要跟各位討論的是有關於我國榮民文物的保存是不是可以更加多元的利用，我們目前所知道的，退輔會有設立一個榮民文化網，上面有很多訪談的影音跟口述的歷史，記錄了榮民伯伯從軍以來的經歷，讓我們國人能夠透過這個網路更加瞭解相關的歷史發展跟前人的故事。其實不單單是在臺灣，像英國有一個帝國戰爭博物館，它有一個聲音檔案館，它收藏超過6萬小時的專業錄製，還有記錄跟保存這些素材，透過這些聲音檔案可以讓觀眾更加全面的瞭解歷史的歷程。","前陣子我有發現我們退輔會要在宜蘭規劃興建榮民文化藝術館，我想這應該已經有招標了。過去我們發現這些文化館大部分都是朝向文物的保存，榮民文化藝術館應該是更加的多元跟活潑，這部分希望主委能夠稍微跟我們闡述一下這個榮民文化藝術館跟過去所謂的這些，比如說現在的榮家家史館之類的，他們的差別在哪裡呢？"],["馮主任委員世寬：報告委員，關於這個文物館，我們想把它變成一種集中式的，因為現在我們各個榮家都有長久的歷史，都存有一些文物……"],["羅委員美玲：是。"],["馮主任委員世寬：我們希望保留一些讓他們做展示之外，能夠在榮民之家把它做數位化的展示，讓所有的遊客或者榮民眷的子女到那邊去，都能夠很快的找到他們想要的資料。另外，在訪問紀錄方面，自從我到會裡面來，根據前面的作法已經做了許多精進的作為，我想請我們負責的厲處長給您做最簡單的報告。"],["羅委員美玲：是。"],["厲處長以剛：委員好，我是綜合規劃處處長厲以剛，我簡單的報告，我們除了我們自己的文物之外，我們也跟一些口述歷史的攝影家或是協會合作，從榮民的角度來做口述歷史，然後做整體的編排，現在已經有跟沈春池基金會來做口述歷史。另外，我們要做一些數位化跟沉浸式、互動式的展示空間，這我們也在規劃了，去參訪過很多的博物館，也跟他們請教，最後我們也跟大部分的眷村協會合作，結合在地的元素，以後會到各地去參展，讓我們的榮民文化更多元、更豐富，報告完畢。"],["羅委員美玲：所以這是我們未來在宜蘭所要興建的榮民文化藝術館未來的規劃。再來還有一點就是國家軍事博物館，耗費時間非常多年，我在想預計未來兩年也要完工了吧？這應該是在不久的將來完工，所以我們未來會有榮民文化藝術館、國家軍事博物館，聽起來好像目前還是朝向於類似文物展示為主，是不是這樣子？這有瞭解嗎？關於國家軍事博物館。"],["厲處長以剛：報告委員，國家軍事博物館是國防部在主導。"],["羅委員美玲：是國防部沒有錯、沒有錯。"],["厲處長以剛：我們有跟他們協調合作，我們有一個專區展覽我們榮民的文物，這樣子的話，因為我們自己的文物會在我們的文物館裡面作為主要的展示，那邊就必須要有一個多元化跟互動式、沉浸式的一個展覽，也就是完全數位化的一個展示方式。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，好。再來，我可能就要請榮民總醫院上來了，北榮嗎？OK，好。我剛才一直聽到的都是文物的展示，2022年時，北榮曾經跟故宮一起合作，合作什麼呢？「今牌人生」對不對？現在我們自己有榮民文化藝術館，未來可能還有剛剛我所提到的國家軍事博物館的成立，那榮總有沒有想要依循2022年跟故宮合作？這跟失智治療有關係，因為我也看到英國的利物浦博物館有一個「記憶之家」，就是有各種各式不同主題的記憶箱，我們榮總有沒有想要來做這一方面的推動呢？請問院長。"],["陳院長威明：謝謝羅委員，我們第一次和故宮合作，那是一個創舉，「今牌人生」取得初步的結果，下個月又要到故宮去簽第二次的約，會有精進的作為，委員建議的這個記憶箱是我們可以考慮的，細節部分我再跟我們失智團隊的同仁來討論。","臺北榮總對文史的保留是不遺餘力，過去我們也都把它都存起來，讓以後後代的子孫都可以知道榮總過去六十多年發展的歷史，謝謝委員。"],["羅委員美玲：因為我知道像榮總你們在2013年就已經被康健雜誌評定你們是專家最多、全方位守護失智病人，有這麼高的評價，所以我看到英國利物浦博物館，既然這個記憶之家推行的非常順利，我想榮總其實已經有在朝這個方面來前進，因為你們已經跟故宮有過合作了，所以我在想是不是經由故宮也好，或是說這些榮民文物館，能讓這些失憶的老長輩從文物當中找回他們過往的記憶，我在想這是可以來推動，所以我剛一直在想，我們有這些榮民之家或者是我剛所提到的國家軍事博物館，還是說榮民文化藝術館等等，其實都可以打造一個比較多元運用的途徑，不單單只是文物的展示，不管是從文化、教育，甚至醫療這方面，我們都可以充分來運用，我從榮總身上還有跟利物浦博物館這邊可以看到，其實我們可以多元來做運用，我們未來應該要朝向這個目標，院長，您這邊還有……"],["陳院長威明：謝謝委員寶貴的建議，我們會把你的寶貴建議帶回去。"],["羅委員美玲：OK，好，謝謝，院長您請回。","再來的話，我想要請教主委的是，有關退輔會轉投資事業的一些績效，像我們平常有時會接到說，退輔會所投資的一些像欣欣客運也好，欣欣天然氣也好，很多民眾都覺得好像沒有那麼地親民，我有看了一下你們的考評機制，說實在的，在考評機制裡面，我看到考評的指標有基本分70分、績效12分、政策執行8分、維護退輔會權益5分、公民股互動2分、法規遵循3分，可是就是沒有看到可以給予民眾評價的這個項目，我想請問一下主委，這樣子的一個評分指標是不是有待改進呢？"],["馮主任委員世寬：報告委員，我覺得應該可以有改進的空間。"],["羅委員美玲：是，所以主委也覺得有可以改進的空間，因為我們既然沒有一個民眾的評價，那我們知道其實有很多退輔會轉投資的事業，不論是高階經理人也好或董事長，其實都是從軍中退役的軍官去擔任，可是商場跟戰場其實還是不太一樣，我有一個建議就是說，在高階經理人或董事長去就任之前，是不是要有一個比較適當的銜接訓練？"],["馮主任委員世寬：有的。"],["羅委員美玲：是，這部分你們有嘛？"],["馮主任委員世寬：有職前訓練，有的。"],["羅委員美玲：有職前訓練，是不是？"],["馮主任委員世寬：對的。"],["羅委員美玲：對，所以我想這部分應該很重要，尤其是考評的機制，我覺得有改進的空間，我覺得還是要有一些民間的評價進來，你們才會有進步的空間。"],["馮主任委員世寬：是的。"],["羅委員美玲：這是給予退輔會的一個建議。以上，謝謝。"],["馮主任委員世寬：好的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請王定宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-15","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","洪申翰","徐巧芯","邱志偉","林憶君","賴士葆","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告「退輔會服務照顧及相關救補助精進作\n為」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133501_00015"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.14909375000000002,"end":3.6590937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":11.10096875,"end":11.961593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.383468750000002,"end":95.20596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.61096875000001,"end":155.83784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.66034375,"end":158.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.06096875,"end":162.16596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.67221875,"end":165.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.96284375000002,"end":175.15971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":175.69971875000002,"end":176.99909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":177.64034375,"end":179.31096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":179.80034375000002,"end":181.11659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":181.72409375,"end":182.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":182.48346875000001,"end":185.45346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.80784375000002,"end":187.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":187.57971875,"end":188.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":189.40221875,"e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"所以我看到英國利物浦博物館竟然這個祭祀家推行得非常的順利我在想榮總其實已經有在朝這個方面來前進因為我們已經跟故宮有過這個合作了所以我在想是不是說經由這些故宮也好或是說我們這些文物館榮民文物館然後讓這些失憶的"},{"start":454.79,"end":459.875,"text":"老長輩從文物當中找回他們過往的記憶我都想這是可以來推動所以我剛一直在想說我們有這些榮民之家或是說我剛所提到的國家軍事博物館或是說榮民文化藝術館等等其實都可以打造一個比較多元的運用的途徑不單單只是文物的展示"},{"start":479.673,"end":480.493,"text":"謝謝委員保貴的建議,我們會把你的保貴建議帶回去"},{"start":504.855,"end":530.203,"text":"OK,好,謝謝那再來,好,那個院長您請回那再來的話我想要請教我們主委的就是說有關於我們退輔會我們轉投資的事業的一些績效像我們平常有機會接到就是說我們退輔會所投資的一些像這個新興客運也好新興天然氣也好很多民眾都覺得說"},{"start":531.383,"end":531.423,"text":"主委"},{"start":561.095,"end":564.947,"text":"這樣一個評分指標是不是有待改進?"},{"start":568.164,"end":568.304,"text":"主席"},{"start":590.825,"end":591.005,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":608.763,"end":608.983,"text":"羅美玲議員"}]}},{"id":"151800","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151800","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e68eb550e4edcb2964055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eeeceb055e68315fde05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"09:28:34 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09:30:52","影片長度":"00:02:18","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":138,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:30:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:28:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.29534375,"end":24.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.668468750000002,"end":136.02659375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.009,"end":1.55,"text":"委員說明好謝謝主席我想我們今天修法最主要是藝人黃子嬌她因為無故持有這個未成年的這個性影像那麼而且造成整個社會的轟動以及憤怒的台版N號房的事件那所以在這個修法的部分呢要跟大家做以下的報告"},{"start":29.627,"end":42.737,"text":"我們當然在這次修法重點就是以這個持有無辜持有這個未成年影像應該要加重刑責但是呢如同剛才王美惠委員所講的有人看"},{"start":44.138,"end":45.479,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":66.061,"end":69.463,"text":"以及用強暴、脅迫、藥劑、詐術、催眠術等方式,我覺得應該更加重刑責。另外一方面,我在整個修法裡面特別提到的就是有窩裡反的條款,也就是為了降低我們辦案的成本,"},{"start":84.753,"end":100.077,"text":""},{"start":100.117,"end":103.478,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":126.548,"end":134.618,"text":"你去自白鼓勵你去揪出你的上游而讓我們有可以更多的這些犯罪集團被揪出來以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151799","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151799","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6451dfe562e303db5055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eee7c25206b5150c49f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"09:26:26 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09:28:32","影片長度":"00:02:06","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":126,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:28:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:26:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.4990937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.19096875,"end":2.69721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.87346875,"end":10.324718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.88159375,"end":35.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.65409375,"end":39.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.75034375,"end":42.454718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.91034375,"end":44.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.766593750000006,"end":47.415968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.479093750000004,"end":50.82471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.92596875,"end":52.596593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.001593750000005,"end":54.65534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.24596875,"end":58.165343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.110343750000006,"end":62.164718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.907218750000006,"end":64.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.91534375,"end":67.32846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.12159375,"end":80.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.82846875,"end":95.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.38721875,"end":104.89221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.29721875000001,"end":106.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.23784375000001,"end":108.67221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.99284375,"end":110.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.84909375000001,"end":125.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.66534375,"end":126.40784375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.289,"end":2.51,"text":"黃美惠委員說明。大家好,大家午安。今天本市也提出我們今天的二、三個條款來賓。本市是覺得這一屆我相信大家都看到這些孩子受災害,"},{"start":24.758,"end":30.344,"text":"因為他們去我們的網站裡面有最特別的就是一個創意私房,大家不知道都當作不知道是在賣錢還是賣什麼,結果不知道說這裡面是八成的孩子所找的網站,尤其在這裡面有千多個會員。"},{"start":48.547,"end":55.669,"text":"你要讓大家看一看的時候,還可以改變在這個社會的時候,有人會看,就一定有人會做。在這個過程當中,你看這些孩子,尤其看到孩子被大人的白色來欺負上,"},{"start":68.171,"end":74.396,"text":"你看這是非常心痛所以本席在三十九條裡面本來我們的法規有定一年以下本席提出三年以下所以我覺得這個條款我相信我們在野任何什麼都覺得這個條款要看經過不覺得對這個社會來說這孩子"},{"start":96.494,"end":96.534,"text":"議員黃捷等"}]}},{"id":"151798","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151798","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6c14cecc3feac9084055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eee04bd65743de01b585ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:24:21 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09:26:25","影片長度":"00:02:04","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":124,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:26:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:24:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.80034375,"end":19.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.74471875,"end":122.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.81346875000001,"end":123.72471875000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":17.81,"end":40.431,"text":"好接下來我們請陳金輝委員委員、各位委員、主席大家早安感謝朝委見及履及了把大家最關注的避免殘害兒童來修法排定了今天的兒童與少年性剝削防制條例的議案身為提案人之一以下是我的草案重點我認為"},{"start":41.332,"end":59.137,"text":"最近的新聞這些違法性影像被販賣還有持有等事件國人從上到下都深惡痛絕但受害者一旦又有未成年兒少族群的話更會因為相對弱勢沒有社會的應變能力所以我們在修法的重點必須要積極的來保護這些兒少"},{"start":61.858,"end":79.966,"text":"所以我所謂提案的呢透過對於第三、第五、第八、第三十九跟第四十七條的修正我要求呢政府每半年就要公布兒童性剝削防制政策的檢討成效然後我們要建立新犯罪資料庫也要提高犯罪的刑度"},{"start":80.546,"end":108.989,"text":"而且當條文審查時我也會提出修正動議針對兒少性影像的持有行為我想要再區分出無故持有以及支付對價而無故持有同時提出科技巡查業務的法定依據還有規定網路業者不得拒絕等等內容以上也拜託大家支持大家都知道說母親節快要到了我們希望台灣的每一個兒童都可以在愛與尊重的環抱中"},{"start":110.13,"end":121.858,"text":"歡樂平安的成長,最快希望召委主持審查過程中把修法內容送出委員會,然後盡快完成二讀三讀,成功修法當成國人最好的母親節禮物。謝謝大家。"}]}},{"id":"151797","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151797","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e607bbb025bd730d1e12d28fff7690636534e2527b10508eee31c2673164c3cee95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:13:52 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09:24:57","影片長度":"00:11:05","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-18"},"duration":665,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:24:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:13:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":121,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時14分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請監察院李秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：黃委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：秘書長好。針對今天徐巧芯等17位委員所提出來的監察院組織法要把一些政治性任命的資格消除，這個說法的方向本席是同意的，不過我覺得更根本的問題是什麼？我覺得更根本的問題是，當一年預算到10億的監察院已經不再受人民信賴的時候，我國憲政體制上面的盲腸必須要被澈底根除！這已經不是監察委員積極資格的問題，這是一個根本沒有用的廢物監察院應該要把它廢止的問題！秘書長，您贊不贊成？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個要由修憲委員會來討論。"],["黃委員國昌：好，當然是要由修憲委員會來討論嘛！2020年您擔任總統府副秘書長的時候，那個時候總統府成立一個廢考監專責平臺，我想要請教一下，這個平臺有達成任何效果嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：有協助第10屆提出憲法修正案。"],["黃委員國昌：有提出憲法修正案？"],["李秘書長俊俋：對。"],["黃委員國昌：你確定嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：第10屆有啊，包括廢除考監。"],["黃委員國昌：最後出委員會的，我們完成了啦！沒有廢考監。當然，對民進黨來講、對國民黨來講，上一屆國會各自有各自的政治盤算，人民不關心這件事，人民關心的事情是如同剛剛秘書長所講的，立法院什麼時候要有一個修憲委員會把這個考監廢除掉？"],["李秘書長俊俋：第8屆也有。"],["黃委員國昌：台灣民眾黨黨團的立場很清楚，監察院廢除！我們希望這個會期跟其他兩大黨一起合作，來完成這個重要的憲政改革使命！不過，在這個之前……"],["李秘書長俊俋：修憲是立法院的職權，不是監察院的職權。"],["黃委員國昌：是啦！在這個之前，監察院有監察院的職權，繼續領納稅人的錢、繼續在花公帑的同時，我們當然期待監察院要有所作為嘛！","好，那我們就進一步看，過去光電弊案叢生，腐敗到讓人沒有辦法想像，最近發生誇張的事情，其實這也不是最近發生的事情，這個只是為了要因應2024年總統大選，刻意壓到選後才辦，這個醜聞我去年談得非常的多了，英系大樁腳力暘集團的古盛煇，小古在民進黨裡面是赫赫有名啊！力暘集團的總部跟民進黨黨部的關係還匪淺，但沒有關係，我們依法論法，就事論事。結果這一個英系權貴力暘集團古盛煇透過非法的方式，騙到了臺南七股的電籌許可，現在檢察官起訴了，檢察官起訴了以後，大家才赫然發現，腐敗的狀況還不止臺南市政府的陳凱凌，腐敗的狀況連我們經濟部能源局光電組組長全部都涉案了，這位林文信竟然還是2022年的模範公務員，這樣的模範公務員，監察院要不要啟動調查？要不要啟動彈劾？"],["李秘書長俊俋：跟黃委員報告，有關光電案，監察院前後調查過8個案，其中有關彰化縣大城鄉的鄉長，還有苗栗三灣的鄉長，還有臺南市經發局的局長，還有口湖的鄉長，都被彈劾。"],["黃委員國昌：就雲林的部分，你還少提了一個人嘛！就是英系的林哲凌嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：我剛剛講的就是林哲凌啊！"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係啦！針對林文信的案子，監察院要不要啟動調查彈劾？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們看委員，委員如果認為有新的證據，他就可以提出彈劾。"],["黃委員國昌：新的證據？"],["李秘書長俊俋：就是針對林文信的部分。"],["黃委員國昌：這個案子之前有調查過嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：其他的光電案有。"],["黃委員國昌：對，我說這個案子之前有調查過嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個尚未結案。"],["黃委員國昌：這尚未結案嘛！好，我今天在立法院國會的殿堂公開呼籲，監委，醒一醒啊！醒一醒啊！該辦就辦，趕快處理。"],["李秘書長俊俋：監察院一向該辦就辦。"],["黃委員國昌：下一個案子，蘇丹紅的案子，最近蘇丹紅的風波越滾越大，這個是今天報紙的版面，這個週末又出包了！結果我們的食藥署署長吳秀梅說什麼？說輸入的時間是在加強邊境檢查前，加強邊境檢查前就是吳秀梅講的什麼？就是2023年12月11號百分之百逐批查驗嘛！問題是我們的食藥署跟臺灣社會講，2023年12月11號的時候有百分之百逐批查驗，但實際上面的結果呢？實際上面的結果是百分之百逐批查驗以後，蘇丹紅的毒粉還是繼續流入臺灣市場。我發現這個狀況以後，我就覺得很奇怪，所以我就質詢衛福部，你們不是告訴臺灣社會百分之百逐批查驗嗎？逐批查驗有問題的在邊境就要攔下來了嘛！為什麼還會有蘇丹紅進來？結果等到我在立法院質詢了以後，我們的衛福部才承認什麼？承認說謊，根本沒有百分之百逐批查驗，這件事情監察院要不要調查？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們現在已經在調查中了。"],["黃委員國昌：需要多久？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個要看委員的時間。"],["黃委員國昌：你們一般辦案的期限多久？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們分為一般案件、重大案件跟特殊重大案件。"],["黃委員國昌：這個是屬於什麼案件？"],["李秘書長俊俋：應該是重大案件。"],["黃委員國昌：所以重大案件是多久？"],["李秘書長俊俋：6個月。"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒關係啦！食安風暴不斷地擴大，衛福部說有逐批查驗，現實上沒有，今天我也是利用……"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個我們調查中嘛……"],["黃委員國昌：你們不用調查啦！我已經都舉出來了啦！衛福部也承認了啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：凡事都要調查，在監察院我們是很細、很注重細節。"],["黃委員國昌：對啦！是、是、是、是，監察院的調查到底細不細，所有監察院的調查報告、彈劾的結果在監察院的網站都有嘛！"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["黃委員國昌：全國人民通通都可以公評啦！","好，下一個問題，監察院的重要原則是不是行政中立、獨立行使職權？"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有錯啊！"],["黃委員國昌：監察委員可以輔選嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：不可以輔選。"],["黃委員國昌：來，我今天公開檢舉，監察院行政中立、獨立行使職權，任職期間不可以從事政治活動，剛剛秘書長也有提到政治活動嘛！監察院相關的規範通通都有講什麼是政治活動，那就奇怪囉！去年年底的時候，監察院院長陳菊跑去高雄的舊城教會為他的子弟兵輔選，我去年還沒有進立法院的時候，我公開質疑這件事情，結果監察院院長陳菊說什麼，陳菊說他受邀參加教會彌撒，到場的時候沒有候選人在，也不清楚前後是不是有候選人在，問題是什麼？12月30號那一天，舊城教會根本沒有彌撒，根本沒有彌撒啊！是院長說謊嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：報告黃委員，這個院長已經發過新聞稿講得非常清楚，他當天都沒有看到候選人，這個不是助選活動……"],["黃委員國昌：好，現在……"],["李秘書長俊俋：這是教會活動。"],["黃委員國昌：好，現在這個就是體制的問題了，當監察院院長有沒有參加政治活動這件事情遭受到了質疑，這個時候是以監察院院長的新聞稿為準，還是監察院應該要啟動自律調查程序？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分很清楚啊！院長已經說明他根本沒有看到候選人，怎麼會是助選活動呢？"],["黃委員國昌：我現在在講的是制度上的問題喔！陳菊說的，陳菊他是被指控的人嘛！他要怎麼講，那是他的說法嘛！如果按照你剛講的，任何人被檢舉了以後，他只要用他自己的說法就可以了，所以我的問題很簡單啦！針對這一件事情，到底監察院的立場是監察院長發新聞稿就可以了，還是要啟動自律調查？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這個部分我跟黃委員報告，監察院依據憲法增修條文第七條的規定，必須超出黨派以外，獨立行使職權，另外我們有自律規範。那如果有人檢舉……"],["黃委員國昌：是，這個就是我的問題了。"],["李秘書長俊俋：對，我們的自律規範……"],["黃委員國昌：如果有人……"],["李秘書長俊俋：如果我們的自律規範認為院長有這樣的……我們會經過紀律委員會來審酌嘛！"],["黃委員國昌：好。現在監察院啟動了自律的紀律委員會程序沒有？"],["李秘書長俊俋：目前這件沒有，因為院長講得很清楚，根本沒有見到候選人，當天也不是助選，也不是選舉活動。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，今天大家見識到了監察院的標準……"],["李秘書長俊俋：沒有。黃委員……"],["黃委員國昌：如果涉案人是陳菊的話，他自己發新聞稿就算數了。"],["李秘書長俊俋：這不能這樣連結，人也沒有見到，也不是選舉活動，你說因為他前後都有……"],["黃委員國昌：請問你人在現場嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我人不在現場。"],["黃委員國昌：請問你人在現場嗎？"],["李秘書長俊俋：我人不在現場，所以我們主動問……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！所以我在講的是體制的問題嘛！到底要不要啟動紀律委員會調查，還是院長說了算？"],["李秘書長俊俋：委員，這是不當連結。"],["黃委員國昌：還是院長說了算？"],["李秘書長俊俋：這是不當連結。"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！我問的問題非常簡單，到底是監察院院長說了算，還是要紀律委員會調查？為什麼？高雄市政府裡面的公務員指證歷歷啊！就是高雄市民政局的副局長蔡翹鴻為候選人舉辦的輔選活動，那一天見面以前，怎麼call人的、誰先到、誰後到、要安排哪些輔選人員帶著東西去，人家都檢舉了嘛！好，現在我的問題很簡單啦！"],["李秘書長俊俋：我們沒有收到任何檢舉函。"],["黃委員國昌：陳菊有陳菊的說法，你說你沒有接到任何檢舉，沒有關係，今天我在司法及法制委員會，我公開檢舉，而且我提案，等一下提案的時候，所有司法及法制委員會的委員一起討論，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃國昌委員。我們現在先做宣告，今天有委員提出臨時提案，依本會往例預計於上午11時處理，若屆時委員正在詢答，則該位委員詢答完畢之後，即進行處理臨時提案。","接下來我們請沈發惠委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","徐巧芯","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","羅智強","林思銘","黃建賓","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","柯建銘","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王鴻薇"],"page_start":335,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133501_00017"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.337218750000002,"e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下一個問題監察院重要的原則是不是行政中立獨立行使職權沒有錯啊監察委員可以服選嗎不可以服選"},{"start":434.895,"end":461.414,"text":"不可以輔選嘛來我今天公開檢舉監察院行政中立獨立行使職權任職期間不可以從事政治活動剛剛政治活動秘書長也有提到嘛監察院相關的規範通通都有講什麼是政治活動那就奇怪囉去年年底的時候監察院院長陳菊跑去高雄的舊城教會為他的子弟弟兵輔選"},{"start":463.257,"end":486.351,"text":"我去年還沒有進去立法院的時候我公開質疑這件事情結果監察院院長陳菊說什麼陳菊說他受邀參加教會彌撒到場的時候沒有候選人在也不清楚前後是不是有候選人在問題是什麼12月30號那一天舊城教會根本沒彌撒根本沒有彌撒"},{"start":490.253,"end":519.72,"text":"是院長說謊嗎?報告黃委員 這個我們已經發過 院長已經發過新聞稿講得非常清楚他當時是沒有看到候選人 這個是候選活動 這是教會活動現在 這個就是體制的問題了當監察院院長有沒有參加政治活動這件事情遭受到的質疑 這個時候是以監察院院長的新聞稿為準還是監察院應該要啟動智力調查程序"},{"start":520.979,"end":541.791,"text":"這個部分很清楚啊 院長已經說明他根本沒有看到候選人 怎麼會是助理我現在在講的 是制度上的問題喔陳菊說的 陳菊他是被指控的人嘛 他要怎麼講 那是他的說法嘛那如果按照你剛講的 任何人 任何人被檢舉了以後 他只要用他自己的說法就可以了"},{"start":542.071,"end":566.602,"text":"所以我的問題很簡單啦針對這一件事情針對這一件事情到底監察院的立場是監察院長發新聞稿就可以了還是要啟動自律調查這個部分我跟黃委員報告齁監察院依據憲法徵求條文第7條的規定必須超出黨派以外獨立行使職權另外我們有自律規範是那如果有人這個就是我的問題啦對"},{"start":570.016,"end":579.673,"text":"如果我們的自律規範認為院長有這樣的 我們會經過紀律委員會來審酌嗎好 現在監察院啟動了自律的紀律委員會程序沒有"},{"start":580.695,"end":585.758,"text":"目前這一件沒有 因為講得很清楚 院長講得很清楚了根本沒有見到候選人沒有關係啊 今天大家見識到了監察院的標準啊如果涉案人是陳菊的話 他自己發宣文稿就算數了人也沒有見到 也不是選舉活動 請問你人在現場嗎我人不在現場所以我在講的是體制的問題嘛"},{"start":606.448,"end":612.03,"text":"到底要不要啟動紀律委員會調查紀律委員會調查還是院長說了算還是院長說了算對嘛我在問的問題非常簡單到底是監察院院長說了算還是要紀律委員會調查為什麼"},{"start":624.534,"end":648.155,"text":"高雄市政府裡面的公務員指正歷歷啊就是高雄市民政局的副局長蔡竅宏為候選人舉辦的輔選活動啊那天見面以前怎麼call人的誰先到誰後到要安排哪些輔選的人員帶著東西去人家都檢舉了嘛好現在我們的問題很簡單啦我們沒有收到任何選舉"},{"start":648.996,"end":662.523,"text":"有陳菊的說法你說你沒有接到任何檢舉沒有關係今天我在司法法制委員會我在司法法制委員會我公開檢舉而且我提提案等一下提案的時候所有司法法制委員會的委員一起討論謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151796","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151796","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e67e60c6f8252a7cce054712d423581dcc34e2527b10508eee881215e59f4c0ebf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:15:48 - 09:25:33","影片長度":"00:09:45","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月29日及5月2日二天一次會））","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":585,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:25:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:15:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":118,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時16分）謝謝召委，有請王次長。"],["主席：請王次長。"],["王次長時思：委員早。"],["萬委員美玲：次長早。次長，喜不喜歡張學友？"],["王次長時思：還好。"],["萬委員美玲：還好，好。這一次我們看到，至少你應該知道這一次張學友再度來到臺灣開演唱會，前面是6場，後面加場，前面那6場的票不叫秒殺，那個真的是打開就全部就賣光了，所以哀鴻遍野，因為很多人……您不太喜歡他，但是他在臺灣擁有廣大的歌迷……"],["王次長時思：有，他有很多粉絲。"],["萬委員美玲：所以非常非常多人上網搶票，包括本席跟很多的朋友，那一天很多人都把電腦打開，還有非常多支手機都準備好要去搶票，這都是循正常管道買票的，但是我們總是看到網站上的訊號一直不斷的轉圈圈，轉圈轉到大家非常心焦，最後幾乎都是落空，這個時候黃牛就出來了。我們其實看到不管是這次的張學友或者是韓國天后IU，他們的票其實都非常搶手，即便張學友再加場，票一樣也都搶光光。","我們回頭來看，去年9月份有一名周姓電腦工程師用自行撰寫的AI外掛程式，以收取代購費的方式幫民眾到各大售票網站去買票，他搶購的幾乎都是熱門演唱會的黃牛票，3個月得手了152張，這件事情次長一定知道，這是在去年6月文創法修正防堵黃牛搶票之後的首例。我們來看這第一案是怎麼判的，他被捕之後認罪，返還了27.9萬的不法所得，另外還有罰金大概50萬，也就是再加了50萬的罰金，就換得了緩起訴。次長，你認為現在黃牛票猖獗成這樣，首例卻是這樣的判例，你怎麼看？這會有嚇阻的效果嗎？"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，我想第一個案例不管是檢察官的判斷或者是司法院的判斷，在司法上我們還是尊重判斷的結果。但是就實質的執行狀況來說，我們的確認為在這些比較重大的以不正方式來掃票，這種惡性相對是比較重大，也對市場秩序影響比較大，我們的確期待……"],["萬委員美玲：好，次長，這位周姓工程師是用收取代購費的方式，請問這有沒有符合文創法的加價轉售的要件？有還是沒有？"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，關鍵是他用不正方式掃票，所以觸犯的是刑事。"],["萬委員美玲：你說關鍵是什麼？"],["王次長時思：他用不正的方式取得，也就是他有掃票的行為，所以……"],["萬委員美玲：那當然嘛！"],["王次長時思：所以他並不是真正的代購，他是假代購。"],["萬委員美玲：因為我們在文創法修法的時候就講得很清楚，哪些要件您剛剛也報告過了，可是我們看到這一位周姓工程師被查獲152張票，比較熱門演唱會的平均票價，我們以3,000塊來算，因為罰金是10倍到50倍，我們就用10倍去計算，這樣算下來，他至少應該要被罰到456萬，但剛才您也報告過了，現在全國的裁處金額只有208萬，可見這個案子是沒有用加價轉售的方式去裁罰，如果是這樣的話，這個裁罰的基準是正確的嗎？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，因為這個部分是有兩種行為樣態，一個是加價，一個是不正，而他觸犯的是不正，關鍵是出現在這裡，所以他是以不正的法條去規範。至於加價的部分，因為他在這個案子裡面並沒有所謂……"],["萬委員美玲：次長，我們去年在討論這個修法的時候，我們就是希望針對用作弊程式搶票的人能夠被重罰，但是我們文創法修正之後的這一起案件，我們的裁罰方式是剛剛您說的，可能用作弊程式搶票給予懲處，但是對於他收取代購費用然後去轉售門票的部分，你是沒有用加購轉售的方式的10倍到50倍去裁罰，我覺得這是很大的一個漏洞，您也看得非常清楚，但是今天在這邊又要跟我講刑法，又針對……"],["王次長時思：因為罰金也可以罰到300萬。"],["萬委員美玲：又針對漏洞的部分視而不見，我覺得難怪，如果文化部是這麼消極的態度，難怪黃牛票會如此的猖獗啦！次長，本席就再請教你，現在有很多的社群，其實我們打開網站都可以看得到，有很多以代購、代尋或代搶票的方式來提供演唱會的門票，然後再去要求支付代購、代搶的費用，等於轉一手，這難道不算黃牛票的一種嗎？"],["王次長時思：要看個案的狀態，有可能是。"],["萬委員美玲：什麼叫做要看個案的狀態？法修在那邊這麼清楚，對不對？"],["王次長時思：沒有，如果代購的是必要開支，也就是收錢的是第三方，譬如郵資費、車資，收錢的是第三方，就不會構成所謂的加價；但是如果錢是他收去，他就符合所謂加價轉售的要件，所以就要看個案在事實上是什麼樣的狀況來判斷。"],["萬委員美玲：次長，我們在臉書上去搜尋搶票，可以看到一大堆，售票、讓票、換票的演唱會的社團，裡面有很多都是用代購、代搶票的方式，如果我們有一個很大漏洞在那個地方，但是文化部的作法跟說法都說要看個案的狀況，每一個個案要再來看看，我覺得其實真的是非常非常輕忽這件事情啦！"],["王次長時思：不是，跟委員報告……"],["萬委員美玲：網站打開來，有這麼多目前都是用這樣的漏洞在做，我不知道你是不想查還是裝不知道……"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，因為……"],["萬委員美玲：根據文化部自己提供給本席的資料，我們看到文化部的檢舉專區，因為我們有鼓勵檢舉，從成立到現在4月15號統計下來，符合文創法第十條之一規定的案件，如果是加價轉售的案件，現在有1,640件，其中資料齊全的就有609件，實際的裁罰卻只有30件，總裁罰金額就是您剛剛報告的208萬而已！另外第二個就是以不正方式來購票的案件有101件，資料齊全的現在也有6件，加上警察機關自行調查的2件，現在有8件，都是我們最重視的以掃票機器人程式搶票的案件，現在3件地檢署還在調查中，2件緩起訴。","次長，我們如果依照這樣的裁罰案件數、金額以及處罰的方式，還有對待黃牛的態度，你覺得到目前為止這樣的作法有辦法去嚇阻黃牛嗎？有沒有必要來加重？雖然文創法修正通過了，但是我們看到演唱會的票還是黃牛層出不窮，就像剛才我們討論的，如果查緝的執行力是很低的，在認定上面又很寬鬆，罰則又不夠重，難怪會有這麼多的黃牛願意以身試法，因為高利的誘惑之下他們就前仆後繼啊！所以這一點，次長覺得有沒有需要加重處罰的必要？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，第一個就是黃牛這件事情的關鍵、核心問題仍然是市場的問題，仍然是因為市場有需求就會創造了提供者，這是第一件事，所以我們的確覺得要從源頭，就是從需求端要求消費者不買來路不明的票，這是一個核心的市場秩序的……"],["萬委員美玲：次長，你不是回頭去呼籲啊！"],["王次長時思：第二件事情是……"],["萬委員美玲：不管是您現在的回答或者是剛剛體育署署長的報告，都是說我們要對黃牛來呼籲，叫他們不要這樣做……"],["王次長時思：不是黃牛，是對售票……"],["萬委員美玲：或者跟消費者說你們不要買，這如果有用的話，還需要修法嗎？我們看到這一次不管是韓國天后或者是幾個熱門的演唱會，包括張學友，我們又看到有竹科的工程師去撰寫搶票機器人程式，還供人下載……"],["王次長時思：也都繩之以法了，都移送地檢署了。"],["萬委員美玲：我們有沒有去想過，就像您剛剛說的，如果各大售票系統、演唱會的票券系統這麼容易就可以去破解，然後搶票機器人的程式都可以這麼快……"],["王次長時思：所以購票平台要負很大的責任。"],["萬委員美玲：你有沒有想過、有沒有找過比如數位發展部，去想想看怎麼協助這些售票平台去強化他們的資安……"],["王次長時思：我們有跟售票平台洽談。"],["萬委員美玲：怎麼做？"],["王次長時思：就是要求他們來做這些，例如加強程式防範掃票機器人的效果，其實有的售票平臺做得比較好，的確是看售票平臺自己的數位能力，有的會比較願意投資成本來做，就會做得比較好。"],["萬委員美玲：次長，不管是日本採用抽選制或者韓國採用實名制，我們現在當然也鼓勵，每一種制度都有優劣，但是強化業者的售票系統阻斷作弊程式，才能夠根本解決黃牛問題，所以我希望文化部能夠再加強，好嗎？"],["王次長時思：可以，我們可以找數位部一起來談這件事情。"],["主席：謝謝萬委員。","接下來請登記第2號的洪孟楷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","范雲","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","黃珊珊","黃捷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","邱志偉","張啓楷","羅智強","林倩綺","林楚茵","劉建國"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列\n席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.48159375,"end":9.531593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.24784375,"end":21.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.42409375,"end":23.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.09909375,"end":47.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.30221875,"end":46.673468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.34846875,"end":48.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.057218750000004,"end":152.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.00284375,"end":153.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.96471875,"end":180.0703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像您剛說的如果各大售票系統演唱會的這個票券的這個系統這麼容易就可以去破解然後這個搶票機器人的這個程式都可以這麼快那你有沒有想過有沒有找過比如說數位發展部去想想看怎麼去協助這些這個售票平台去強化他們的資安我們有跟售票平台做洽談怎麼做就是要求他們來做這些加強他的程式"},{"start":551.377,"end":578.894,"text":"去防範掃票機器人的這個程式效果其實有的售票平台就做得比較好其實的確是看售票平台他們自己的數位能力他們有的會比較願意投資這個成本來做的我想次長不管是日本採用抽選制或者韓國採用實名制那我們現在當然也鼓勵啦每一種制度都有它的優劣但是我想強化我們業者的售票系統才能夠阻斷作弊的程式這才能夠根本的解決黃牛問題啦所以我們希望文化部能夠再加強好嗎"},{"start":579.996,"end":582.128,"text":"我們可以找數位部一起來談這件事情"}]}},{"id":"151795","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151795","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6f98d84ec6459a5a2055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eee4c93c959780201415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"09:21:45 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09:24:17","影片長度":"00:02:32","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":152,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:24:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:21:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.716593750000001,"end":14.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.336593750000002,"end":16.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.450343750000002,"end":18.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.36971875,"end":19.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.53409375,"end":21.74909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.12034375,"end":23.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.01034375,"end":27.199718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.414718750000002,"end":28.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.034718750000003,"end":30.625343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.878468750000003,"end":32.21159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.59971875,"end":33.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.38846875,"end":35.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.345968750000004,"end":37.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.45971875,"end":38.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.02909375,"end":39.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.90659375,"end":42.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.58534375,"end":44.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.88034375,"end":47.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.65221875,"end":50.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.60096875,"end":54.11534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.587843750000005,"end":63.869093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.78034375,"end":67.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.15534375,"end":70.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.87221875,"end":71.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.55971875,"end":74.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.97284375000001,"end":79.17471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.39409375000001,"end":80.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.33471875000001,"end":83.24159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.86596875000001,"end":84.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.06409375000001,"end":94.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.44659375,"end":97.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.07471875,"end":103.93034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.84159375,"end":106.63034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.15346875,"end":109.38096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.41034375000001,"end":112.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.90784375000001,"end":116.08034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.36284375000001,"end":117.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.69596875,"end":119.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.36659375,"end":123.26909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.33221875000001,"end":127.94346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.01096875000002,"end":129.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.12034375000002,"end":133.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.62596875,"end":143.29971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.87346875,"end":145.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.11784375000002,"end":147.46784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.15971875,"end":150.72471875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.995,"end":41.296,"text":"主席各位同仁本席提案兒童及少年性剝削條例之修正草案那麼我們是希望法規能夠更完善的保護性被害未成年被害者他們這個能夠得到應有的保護那所以我的看法兩點第一點應該加重"},{"start":44.229,"end":71.631,"text":"對兒少幼拐性交易、強迫拍攝以及散佈營利的罪輕本行。前一段時間黃姓一人他所作所為令人髮指,但是承辦檢察官最後竟然以犯罪情節非重大給予他還起訴。這一件事情"},{"start":73.008,"end":96.74,"text":"讓我們整個社會嘩然。所以為了避免檢察官因為誤判而重犯的犯罪情節重大之加害人,所以我認為應該加重對未成年、誘拐性交易、強迫拍攝、散播營利等罪之最輕本行。"},{"start":98.48,"end":122.573,"text":"讓加害人沒有辦法再適用緩起訴的要件。第二點,我認為應該增訂購買性影像者之加重處罰,因為透過切斷需求來抑制非法性影像來源之壯大。"},{"start":124.423,"end":150.126,"text":"其實這是非常重要的一環所以本席提案修正本法第44條我要徵定支付對價關染或持有兒童性影像者處三年以上、五年以下之有期徒刑以上兩點是我個人的看法謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151794","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151794","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6ec2b0f0a300ee5765b40abc3f7af24af34e2527b10508eeee3de8b0d8230918a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:20:16 - 09:22:58","影片長度":"00:02:42","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。\n\n備註：4月29日（星期一）、5月1日(星期三)【兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":162,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:22:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:20:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.40221875,"end":25.49534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.84971875,"end":36.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.987218750000004,"end":42.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.454718750000005,"end":55.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.157218750000006,"end":63.008468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.227843750000005,"end":65.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.67471875000001,"end":68.42534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.03284375,"end":72.86346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.28534375000001,"end":79.64721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.06909375000001,"end":87.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.64596875000001,"end":125.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.47534375000001,"end":126.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.48784375000001,"end":131.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.97659375,"end":132.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.81159375000001,"end":160.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.66409375,"end":162.23346875000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.484,"end":16.723,"text":"主席好各位委員各位官員大家早安大家好那今天是新住民基本法草案的提案那隨著時代的演進我們的社會變得越來越多元一個非常顯而易見台灣社會的改變就是新住民族的興起"},{"start":17.484,"end":45.317,"text":"案。 剛剛非常多委員有提到現在新住民的人口已經內政部統計已經將近60萬人所以是一個不能忽視的聲音那在本席的選區在新北市中和區我們有非常一條非常著名的華新街也是知名的緬甸街每年都會辦非常有意義的點燈節跟潑水節讓我們所有台灣以及我們的新住民都帶來的鄉親平安那所以我們認為這新住民在過去這個"},{"start":46.357,"end":68.182,"text":"案。 千禧迢迢舉家到台灣用禮食、用宗教、文化以及節慶來跟我們台灣社會來做一個交流以及融合。所以我們需要說今天我們在討論新住民基本法要依照我們的憲法第二章人民的權利義務的第七條規定中華民國的人民無分男女宗教"},{"start":69.402,"end":86.548,"text":"種族階級黨派在法律前一律平等以及剛剛我特別提到的憲法徵修條文第10條基本國策的部分以及第11條前段就是我們國家肯定多元文化發展等等的規定"},{"start":88.068,"end":115.507,"text":"案。 讓我們憲法來促進族群平等以及人民權利的規範讓我們台灣促進多元的文化所以今天本席提出了新住民基本法來確保新住民在台灣的社會可以提到充分的保護以及尊重以及我們關心新住民的生活需求提供他們必要的資源以及幫助最後我們可以讓我們不同的文化"},{"start":117.568,"end":117.688,"text":"案。 審查委員"},{"start":134.858,"end":162.056,"text":"更開放的態度來針對今天的修法一起共同來努力一起來實現多元文化共榮建立一個更協和更繁榮的社會所以今天還是要拜託我們的討論希望未來我們行政院新住民法的版本盡快提出以及新住民基本法盡快通過以及我們未來能推動新住民委員會給所有新住民一個更安居樂業的生活以上 謝謝好 非常謝謝張主任"}]}},{"id":"151793","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151793","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6b7feaa612cd7a10e5b40abc3f7af24af34e2527b10508eeed2b10256321871ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"09:18:02 - 09:20:02","影片長度":"00:02:00","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。\n\n備註：4月29日（星期一）、5月1日(星期三)【兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":120,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:20:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:18:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":22.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.79534375,"end":39.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.27784375,"end":85.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.35096875,"end":118.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.06471875000001,"end":108.40221875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.93,"end":22.172,"text":"今天代表國民黨團針對新住民基本法進行提案說明第一根據內政部今年3月最新統計我國新住民人數已達59萬5千人若再加上新住民子女47萬人家庭人口數即將突破100萬人新住民來台落地生根積極融入台灣社會已經成為我國不可或缺的新力量"},{"start":22.893,"end":39.619,"text":"第二、新住民因為語言、文化隔閡等因素加上新住民事務工作目前散落在各部會以至於生活適應上遭遇困難甚至求助無門因此我們需要一個可以整合跨部會資源的專責機關提供新住民家庭更完善的權益保障"},{"start":40.399,"end":61.367,"text":"第三、106年監察院研究報告有提到婚姻移民政策之規劃已推動涉及中央各部會之間業務權責及橫向協調合作但現有的新住民事務協調匯報顯然功能相對有限協調整合以及督導往往流於形式因此我們建議政府研議制定專法"},{"start":62.307,"end":84.481,"text":"同年本院內政委員會召開新住民基本法草案公聽會內政部書面報告更提到正在收集先進國家立法及執行方式審慎研議最佳的立法內容但6年多來行政院依然沒有提出版本讓新住民權益的保障牛步不前我想是蠻遺憾的"},{"start":85.482,"end":108.163,"text":"最後國民黨團希望藉由新住民基本法落實憲法平等權的原則並且要求行政院設置新住民事務委員會統籌相關事務明定新住民發展基金法律依據以及基金來源以維持財源穩定此外我們也要求政府設置新住民文化重點發展區推動新住民文化產業發展加速新住民融入我國社會懇請朝野"},{"start":109.824,"end":117.462,"text":"案。 立委共同支持我們一起盡速達成多元融合賠利提升國家競爭力的總體發展目標以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151792","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151792","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6c601d82f3143cda55b40abc3f7af24af34e2527b10508eee357500fb7aca0c625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:15:11 - 09:17:53","影片長度":"00:02:42","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。\n\n備註：4月29日（星期一）、5月1日(星期三)【兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":162,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:17:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:15:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.70596875,"end":6.021593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.64596875,"end":33.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.73034375,"end":49.086593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.89659375,"end":73.33596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.14596875000001,"end":135.57096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.92534375,"end":137.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.37221875,"end":160.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.20409375,"end":162.53721875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.813,"end":19.863,"text":"在全球全化的氣勢下,國際移民的規模日越廣大,各國的移民比例一直在提升,而我國的新住民人數即將突破60萬人。他們為台灣社會帶來了多元文化,"},{"start":24.305,"end":48.851,"text":"案,使我國的經濟、教育、文化等各方面都有更多元且創新的發展。同時,我們也必須要保障新住民在我國的法律、地位以及正視新住民在臺生活面臨所認定的困境。新住民在臺灣社會重要的一份子,"},{"start":49.946,"end":73.016,"text":"但一直以來都牽扯正式法院來明定新住民法律地位而且中央也沒有一個統籌新住民事務專責機構所以新住民的業務落在各部會這樣要如何讓新住民權利義務受到全面的保障"},{"start":74.416,"end":95.63,"text":"案。 依據院政部移民署在107年新住民生活需求調查報告也指出新住民生活照顧服務需要中設立新住民專責服務機構是高居第二名,代表很多在台灣的新住民也期待著有一個專責機構來整合各方面的資源來統籌規劃新住民相關的政策。"},{"start":104.096,"end":106.939,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具"},{"start":120.773,"end":137.535,"text":"案。 全面保障新住民的教育、文化、醫療、就業等各方面的平等機會,並加強對新住民文化、教育和語言支持,以足新住民與台灣社會的融合,直達真正的"},{"start":138.416,"end":160.035,"text":"案。 彼此包容、接納不同,因此我誠懇呼喚各個委員能夠共同支持新住民基本法草案在不分黨派、集合共識之下,讓法案順利通過,共創一個更加公正、平等、和諧和共榮社會。"}]}},{"id":"151791","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151791","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6470438590ad7e0685b40abc3f7af24af34e2527b10508eeeb17bc107fd8b3f6e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:13:15 - 09:14:48","影片長度":"00:01:33","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。\n\n備註：4月29日（星期一）、5月1日(星期三)【兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":93,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:14:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:13:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":73.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.03221875,"end":74.12909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.12909375000001,"end":74.16284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.78721875000001,"end":83.19096875000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.089,"end":13.293,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等21人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委"},{"start":24.496,"end":51.005,"text":"為本席認為,新住民應不限於婚姻移民,應包含依國際法規劃取得我國國籍者,亦即應包含應工作、投資等目的而移居台灣之人才。新住民及其子女遍佈社會各角落,早已成為我國不可或缺的重要力量,卻普遍面對與人格合、文化差異及生活適應的挑戰。會落實我國憲法《徵求台灣》第10條第11項之規定,國家肯定多元文化之意旨,"},{"start":51.325,"end":73.563,"text":"案。 並不達到人人在法律上一律平等且應受法律平等保護之目的所以我特別提出以《新住民基本法草案》就新住民之生活適應、就學就業、衛生醫療、文化發展以及社會救助等面向制定相關條文以保障新住民基本權益促進我國成為多元文化與言共存共融之祥和社會以上說明其能獲得各位委員的支持謝謝"},{"start":74.824,"end":75.946,"text":"請國民黨團代表牛徐廷委員提案說明"}]}},{"id":"151790","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151790","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6a164c1a252798bc2055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eee4c70deecae8ed2e75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:19:25 - 09:21:42","影片長度":"00:02:17","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":137,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:21:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:19:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.160343750000003,"end":136.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.97159375,"end":137.41034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.194,"end":26.984,"text":"好,那我們很快的說明齁第一個就是齁就是要增加刑度我看這個大概是齁大家的共識但作為一個刑法學者在這邊要提醒大家一下就是我們最後還是要參照這整體的這一個刑度對照表那理論上呢我個人齁我自己在提案裡面有寫到兩年是比較合理的齁"},{"start":27.444,"end":42.772,"text":"那最主要是要增加他的負擔因為沒有去增加他的負擔處分單純提高刑罰的意義並不高那至多呢至多應該是三年因為如果三年再往下的話會動到其他條文的刑度那除非我們要全部一起修正這是第一件事情"},{"start":43.392,"end":72.372,"text":"第二件事情就是呢我看到蠻多委員有提到對價取得這件事齁那以刑法的規範來講單純對價取得就可以構成刑法上的規範在整部法律裡面是非常非常稀少的最主要就只有在什麼買賣收受髒物罪所以如果真的要把對價取得要把購買直接當作一個犯罪行為把它當作毒品一樣的話需要有更堅實的理由那我在另外跟月前委員的提案裡面有把它設計成雙重違憲意思就是你購買"},{"start":73.132,"end":93.067,"text":"而你購買再加上比如說你以特定青少年或者兒童作為類別那這樣的話它就有雙重的危險那就可能比較值得從一般的違法到形式上的違法這是我第二個建議那第三個建議就是在加強刑法力道的這個同時呢非常重要的一點就是虛擬兒童那虛擬兒童這一邊呢如果我們還把它擴張把虛擬的都處罰進來的話一定會有過寬的問題因為你的刑度已經加重了你的行為類型也變多了"},{"start":101.593,"end":123.838,"text":"所以不管是在我們的修法理由或者在這次衛福部的意見我強烈建議必須要把虛擬排除。那虛擬排除以後呢但是譬如說是以真實兒童作為比如說AI啊什麼等等之類的這個納入這沒有問題。最後就是刑度加重徒罰不足以自刑啦單純刑度的加重不代表這些人一定抓得到。"},{"start":124.298,"end":135.585,"text":"所以對於就是那個月選委員晚一點應該會說明就是你的主管機關要怎麼劃分要怎麼要增加第一線執法的量能這個一定比刑度加賬還要來得更為重要那我先講到這邊謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151789","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151789","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6b4af581627fb9b9f055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eee766d831f399ea9335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"09:17:29 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09:19:22","影片長度":"00:01:53","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":113,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:19:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:17:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.012843750000002,"end":30.203468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.456593750000003,"end":31.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.31284375,"end":36.345968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.987218750000004,"end":75.29346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.47909375,"end":112.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.70096875,"end":114.15659375000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.41,"end":4.019,"text":"一、委員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":8.315,"end":31.236,"text":"主席還有各位我們的剝削官員、各位委員大家好本期這次提出的兒童及性剝削防制條例的修正相關草案是因為隨著網際網路的普遍串流媒體的興起那兒少易受性剝削的風險也隨著增加所以為了應對因應這一項挑戰本期提案修正第二條"},{"start":32.312,"end":43.757,"text":"則一、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。則一、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。則一、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條條文修正草案。則一、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條及第五十一條條條文修正草案。則一、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「"},{"start":54.262,"end":79.651,"text":"還對潛在的犯罪者也發出明確的警告社會對於這類侵害兒童及少年權益的行為、零容忍的態度那這種做法也是基於沒有市場就沒有殺戮這個原則強調了剷除需求端在防制性剝削中的一個重要性那當然我想針對這個部分我們將購買行為列入犯罪行為的類型也有助於警方跟檢察機關"},{"start":80.791,"end":96.757,"text":"在偵查和起訴此類案件時有更為明確的法律依據這不僅能夠加大打擊的力度也能提高法律的執行效率從而更有效的保護兒少免受侵害希望藉由這一次的修法"},{"start":96.937,"end":114.138,"text":""}]}},{"id":"151788","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151788","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6c601d82f3143cda5055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eee1a5bdcbe6895c8a55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"09:15:10 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09:17:22","影片長度":"00:02:12","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":132,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:17:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:15:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.04659375,"end":9.480968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.71721875,"end":30.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.355343750000003,"end":40.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.22721875,"end":59.68409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.03846875000001,"end":63.83534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.22346875000001,"end":68.77971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.91471875,"end":71.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.61471875000001,"end":73.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.38659375,"end":75.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.74909375,"end":77.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.94284375000001,"end":84.62534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.06409375000001,"end":88.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.94534375,"end":94.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.05846875,"end":97.01159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.07909375000001,"end":101.07846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.26409375,"end":130.50846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.31846875000002,"end":131.97659375}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.849,"end":29.814,"text":"謝謝主席。因為修改兒少性剝削條例,這已經是屬於跨黨派的一個共識。修法也是刻不容緩。修法越快是保障越多、越快。所以本席是期待本會期能夠順利通過。本席修改的條文如下。第一個是修正原條文第二條第一項第三款。"},{"start":30.695,"end":59.073,"text":"憎定非基於政當目的持有性影像,還有以對價取得存取上開物品電池記錄之權利,都列入這個性剝削的定義。第二個,修正第三十六條及第三十八條將拍攝、製造兒童或少年之性影像及散布、播送、交付公然陳列的違法行為,它的刑事處罰加以提高。我認為這也是跨黨派的共識。第三,修正第三十九條第四項的規定,"},{"start":60.1,"end":72.674,"text":"以對價取得、存取兒童或少年之性影像與性相關而客觀上足以引起性慾或羞恥之圖畫、語音或其他物品之電磁記錄權力。這個行為樣態以持有論。那為修正了第五十條的規定。"},{"start":78.266,"end":100.412,"text":"則敦促媒體善盡社會責任,避免傳播足以引誘、媒介、暗示或使其他兒童或少年遭受性剝削之餘的資訊。第四是修正第五十一條的規定,為矯正異常之人格、行為及偏差的心理,使其接受適當之處遇,也增訂了身心治療的規定。"},{"start":101.563,"end":104.645,"text":"則提高無正當理由不接受輔導教育的罰款。"},{"start":131.416,"end":131.437,"text":"好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151787","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151787","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6be920e6b64a19c0d055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eeedd8566ac4e98ee245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"09:12:55 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09:15:00","影片長度":"00:02:05","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":125,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:15:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:12:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.598468750000002,"end":122.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.19284375000001,"end":125.34471875000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":13.649,"end":42.77,"text":"各位同仁大家好那針對我們這個性剝削的這個修正草案那原則上我們簡短的簡短二要來跟大家報告主要就是要斷鏈斷鏈的意思就是說把這個產業給斷鏈那譬如說拍攝製造我們第三十六條拍攝製造或這個兒童或少年性影像的部分我們把提高罰則那特別是在強暴脅迫拍攝兒童性影像的部分我們從七年以上改為十年以上有期徒刑得病課一千萬以下罰金也就是說從"},{"start":43.37,"end":48.214,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":65.326,"end":87.942,"text":"再來就是說針對第四十七條修法強調網路平台就是把強調平台的責任這個就是說從製造端到這個剝削端到這個平台端我們全部都要加重他的責任比如說對業者不配合的罰款我們從六萬元以上六十萬元以下改為二十萬元以上五百萬元以下"},{"start":89.443,"end":104.922,"text":"不管是從源頭開始,我們要把這個產業鍊鍛煉,所以說把每一個步驟把它完成之後,修法相關的步驟把它完成之後,我們相信在於震攝力也好,或者是在散播力也好,散播力能夠降低。"},{"start":105.282,"end":105.662,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"}]}},{"id":"151786","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151786","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e64c07850fbac97a0812d28fff7690636534e2527b10508eee4828966cd5e1f3d25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"09:08:52 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09:13:22","影片長度":"00:04:30","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-18"},"duration":270,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:13:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:08:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.494093750000001,"end":92.35409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.94471875,"end":193.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.27909375000002,"end":268.39409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.816,"end":34.997,"text":"主持好大家好那這次呢本案今天送進來的是有關於監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二的修正草案對照表那在現行的條文之下呢我們看到所謂的擔任監察委員的資格呢需要滿其中的一些資格那其中呢是要擔任立法委員任以上或是指甲式"},{"start":36.518,"end":37.118,"text":"議員兩任以上。"},{"start":54.071,"end":71.407,"text":"這就等於是應該在五院行使中立、客觀權力的人他本身就已經有了政治形態跟意識形態的色彩這點我們覺得是沒有意義的所以我們就把它給刪除了"},{"start":73.269,"end":91.943,"text":"現行條文第6條:「清廉正職,富有政治經驗或主持新聞文化等事業,生育著住者。」這一條也相當的不清楚什麼叫做清廉正職呢?比方說我們現在的"},{"start":93.704,"end":118.175,"text":"監察院長陳菊社會上會認為她是一個清廉正直的人嗎?她在氣爆案的處理上面她在過去很多議題的處理上面她是一個清廉正直的人嗎?所以這個完全是一個主觀的認定再來富有政治經驗如果我們今天的監察院是需要富有政治經驗的"},{"start":119.275,"end":141.225,"text":"那為什麼不當立法委員就好呢?有很多其他的重要的位置都是能夠用富有政治經驗的人來擔任但是監察委員對全民來說他是要糾舉跟監察所有現在政府裡面的相關弊害如果他本身有所謂的政治經驗"},{"start":142.185,"end":166.808,"text":"他難保他會用他的政治色彩然後來處理事情就會變成大小眼半藍不半綠或是半綠不半藍或者是主持新聞文化事業生育卓越者這也是一樣的我們知道現在很多的媒體雖然形式上是中立但是我就問大家每天有看三立電視台嗎"},{"start":168.169,"end":192.169,"text":"三立電視台是一個中立的電視台嗎?競電視是一個中立的電視台嗎?這些很明顯的不中立的電視台我們能夠說它主持了新聞文化事業生育卓育嗎?我們能夠來請李正翰來擔任監察委員嗎?這個是荒天下之大謬所以我們希望就是說"},{"start":194.312,"end":195.752,"text":"徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯徐巧芯"},{"start":222.38,"end":247.939,"text":"參加了政黨的活動包含是競選黨部的主委跟相關的幹部那等等的這些東西當然我們可以再進一步的界定但是要界定參加何種活動屬於有政治色彩一點都不難所以我相信在這樣的條文裡面我們還可以做更多的討論"},{"start":248.94,"end":267.67,"text":"但是方向上面我們就是希望不需要監察院不需要有政治卓越背景新聞卓越背景這種很有可能有意識形態不公正的人來擔任而是要由完全中立的人來做表達以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151785","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151785","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e619e43230a2b9ed96055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eeef8ee8e183dec96ac5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:10:37 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09:12:48","影片長度":"00:02:11","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":131,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:12:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:10:37+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.0222187500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.290968750000001,"end":10.864718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.910968750000002,"end":13.294718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.480343750000003,"end":40.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.712218750000005,"end":51.314093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.46596875,"end":110.17409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.22471875000001,"end":126.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.15034375,"end":128.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.88846875000002,"end":129.31034375000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.349,"end":1.07,"text":"如均委員說明"},{"start":11.943,"end":40.524,"text":"本席是阿宅我們最能夠了解網路的好但是我們也應該要盡力遏止網路的惡近年來非法偷拍與兒少性犯罪的影像論壇的不法情勢雖被檢警查獲但該網站變更網域以後卻又捲土重來顯見我們應該需要重新思考這項議題在制度上的不足為了遏止非法偷拍與兒少性犯罪影像網站的存在"},{"start":41.789,"end":66.668,"text":"本席所提出的兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條以及第四十四條的修正草案,主要有兩個部分。第三十九條第一項,關於持有兒少性影像的犯罪樣態,參酌國外法規,例如德國刑法第184條,對於單純持有兒童或少年色情刊物處以三年以下有期徒刑。"},{"start":67.288,"end":89.171,"text":"澳地利刑法也是相同的刑度,所以將第39條第一項的刑度提高為一年以上,三年以下有期徒刑,希望能夠符合罪行相當的原則。其次,由於目前兒童及少年性剝削防制條例規範缺漏了購買或取得會員資格以關染兒少性行為或兒少性以上等服務的刑責,"},{"start":90.032,"end":96.397,"text":"而購買行為與取得會員資格的行為都等同於鼓勵或者精元了兒少性剝削產業鏈的形成和發展。"},{"start":98.484,"end":126.41,"text":"所以我在此提出增訂了第44條第二項的規定,針對支付對價購買服務或性影像,以及花錢取得服務會員資格者,都應該討論、克與一定的刑責。請大家一起支持,我們朝野共同努力,一起構建更好的法治與環境,積極嚇阻網路性暴力,保護我們的孩子,不再受到任何有心人士的傷害。"},{"start":127.271,"end":128.158,"text":"幸福成長!謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"151784","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151784","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6c734dfc1db43503b055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eee83adf546086f61b55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭昱晴","委員發言時間":"09:08:31 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09:10:36","影片長度":"00:02:05","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":125,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:10:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:08:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.03846875,"end":13.277843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.41284375,"end":14.644718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.015968750000003,"end":25.360343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.76534375,"end":34.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.42221875,"end":53.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.49096875,"end":59.27909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.56596875,"end":62.65409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.687843750000006,"end":86.39721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.75159375000001,"end":88.01721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.42221875,"end":95.39159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.65721875000001,"end":97.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.99034375000001,"end":102.00659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.17534375000001,"end":105.80346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.97221875000001,"end":110.81534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.05159375000001,"end":113.32971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.61659375,"end":118.99971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.23596875000001,"end":123.75846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.375,"end":22.485,"text":"本席所提出關於這個《兒少性剝削法》的這個防制條例第38跟第39條的一個修正那麼近年來因為這個兒少通報的這個案例是越來越多那根據衛福部他們的統計資料就是受害人的這個比例從2020年的2077人一直到2023年其實是逐漸上升將近是翻倍"},{"start":30.67,"end":36.994,"text":"告知受害人數為4378人。由於現行法令對於製造或散佈兒童性剝削的行為與影像處罰過輕,在於裁罰行動沒有辦法彰顯保護兒童身心安全的價值和宗旨。"},{"start":53.604,"end":71.122,"text":"所以本席認為,其實在為了要有效地降低所謂的持有的機會,那麼有效地嚇阻這個犯罪行為的一個發生,那本席希望能夠是不是比照中華民國刑法第277條以傷害罪的一個角度來切入所謂的討論的刑期。"},{"start":72.243,"end":94.433,"text":"而若以重傷害的角度,刑責應提高至三年以上、十年以下。而若以重傷害的角度,刑責應提高至三年以上、十年以下。而若以重傷害的角度,刑責應提高至三年以上、十年以下。而若以重傷害的角度,刑責應提高至三年以上、十年以下。而若以重傷害的角度,刑責應提高至三年以上、十年以下。而若以重傷害的角度,刑責應提高至三年以上、十年以下。而若以重傷害的角度,刑責應提高至三年以上、十年以下。而若以重傷害的角度,刑責應提高至三年以上、十年以下。"},{"start":96.687,"end":97.187,"text":"以上向大家說明,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151783","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151783","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e65a816a330b4c2130055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eee13ba9401abf90a7b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"09:06:10 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09:06:00","影片長度":"00:01:32","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":92,"end_time":"2024-04-29T09:06:00+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T09:04:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.709093750000001,"end":90.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.22346875000001,"end":91.96596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.722,"end":36.756,"text":"好 謝謝主席各位大家早安我講一下我的提案好了因為這一次因應這個我很多部分黨派的委員都有提出兒童性剝削條例的修法那在我的版本裡面有幾個重點第一個是下載這個行為因為網路下載檔案傳輸這種就是原本法律就有保障它原本就有定義它是重置的行為那兒童性剝削影像外流這個也是這一次主要的犯案的管道"},{"start":37.196,"end":61.75,"text":"所以我認為要減少這些不法的影像透過下載然後進行傳播所以我的法案裡面有提到36條加入重置這個行為的樣態然後也把他的罰金提高他的上限再來第二個是持有在39條裡面有規範持有兒少性剝削影像那我希望可以增加他的刑度跟罰金的上限來增加他的嚇阻的效果"},{"start":62.35,"end":89.812,"text":"而第三個是目前而少性剝削條例五十一條裏面有規範針對犯罪者的輔導教育推述都還是只有觀念或知識的認知教育所以我希望比照性侵害防制犯罪條例裏面來規範犯行嚴重的加害者應該要接受身心的治療來減少再犯的可能性那以上是我的條例的修正希望大家可以支持然後我們加速落實對於兒少權益的保障謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151873","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151873","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6be7c01a100101168054712d423581dcc3cba397b1f8b3c9c3d997d3b3f5f9fd45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:51:27 - 11:56:55","影片長度":"00:05:28","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月29日及5月2日二天一次會））","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":328,"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:56:55+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T11:51:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":839,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時51分）謝謝主席，我想請文化部次長、體育署署長以及刑事局警政監。"],["主席：請次長、署長及刑事局代表，謝謝。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：三位首長，我想今天很重要就是我們在討論所謂在臺灣的黃牛票猖獗這件事情，黃牛票的存在對於一個國家，甚至是對文化界、娛樂界、體育界是非常大的殘害，不但殘害了粉絲的辛苦錢、殘害了主辦方跟代理商的商譽，還殘害了藝人的產出價值，最嚴重的是政府的威信，各位同意吧？政府的威信在黃牛票猖獗的現代，當然是一件今天大家都非常關心的事。在修法之後，三個單位都有相關主責的對象，取締的案子、檢舉的案子看起來也不少，所以我想請問一下次長，你認為現在這個法規有沒有效果？"],["王次長時思：我想從文創法第十條之一修法之後，它跟之前所謂的黃牛市場比……"],["黃委員珊珊：好一點？"],["王次長時思：其實還是有好很多，而且……"],["黃委員珊珊：好，次長，民意代表最近收到非常多自己支持者的請託，就是希望買到……"],["王次長時思：主要是張學友的這一場。"],["黃委員珊珊：張學友的演唱會。"],["王次長時思：對，因為它沒有實名制的結果。"],["黃委員珊珊：對，我也打給他說，因為我也買不到，所以請不要再來找我了。重點是去問了主辦單位，它是幾秒鐘就不見了、幾秒鐘就買完了，所以現在的問題大概都是機器人的問題。就這個案例看起來，修法了一年，目前為止還是沒有辦法完全遏阻這樣子的行為，看起來……"],["王次長時思：的確沒有完全遏止，不過在裁處的案件上，跟之前比當然是已經有正面的案例。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以黃牛就是要讓他賣不掉，對不對？"],["王次長時思：最好是沒有人買。"],["黃委員珊珊：就是要讓黃牛不好賣，沒有人買嘛！"],["王次長時思：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以現在不管是文化創意產業發展法，還是相關的體育產業發展條例都一樣，我們是罰所謂的只要加價就罰，對吧？"],["王次長時思：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：警政署的是社維法，社維法還需要確定是不是自用，對嗎？"],["王次長時思：文創法裡面有不正方式，也是警政署在查察，也就是掃票機器人的部分。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以也就是說我們現在還要證明人家是不是自用，還是他只要拿出來賣，加了價錢我們就開罰？"],["王次長時思：只要是加價轉售。"],["黃委員珊珊：加價轉售就開罰？"],["王次長時思：他只能依原價或低於原價。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以目前為止只要加價轉售就開罰？"],["王次長時思：原則上是。"],["黃委員珊珊：但是我給你看一下教育部的網站還有文化部的網站，你們的檢舉黃牛專區都有這樣的問題，第一個，你叫人家檢舉要提供交易相關資訊，要販售者的銀行帳戶、匯款紀錄，表示我要買了才能檢舉嗎？不是吧！"],["王次長時思：主要是才能夠獲得買票的資訊。"],["黃委員珊珊：各位、次長你看一下，這是文化部的，要交易相關資訊提供出來；另外一個是教育部的，教育部的是要交易的證據。就不是你剛剛講的只要加價就罰……"],["王次長時思：這是針對檢舉的條件。"],["黃委員珊珊：不對喔！如果是檢舉的話，我檢舉他有加價就應該開罰了啊！為什麼檢舉要提供交易的證據？"],["王次長時思：因為還是要知道當事人，譬如說做這件事的人是誰，要取得他的個資。"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有錯，我檢舉可以具名啊！我具名給他……"],["王次長時思：是行為人。"],["黃委員珊珊：我告訴你是哪一個臉書在加價啊！"],["王次長時思：是行為人，就是……"],["黃委員珊珊：但是我要有交易的證據嗎？"],["王次長時思：因為如果沒有交易的紀錄會不知道是誰在販售。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以次長，那就是違反到你原來立法裡面加價就罰的原則喔！我的意思是說，如果你今天是這樣的檢舉方案，民眾其實不太知道要怎麼檢舉喔！"],["王次長時思：其實只要有票號，不一定要……"],["黃委員珊珊：他發現了加價就罰的情況，他也沒辦法檢舉喔！"],["王次長時思：不一定要真的完成交易，他只要有票號就可以。"],["黃委員珊珊：是，那就請你們把你們網站上面的資訊改一下，如果你要讓民眾知道加價就罰的話，你們這個網站會誤導人家說你要買到才能檢舉，這是第一點。"],["王次長時思：我們可以強化這個說明。"],["黃委員珊珊：不是只有說明，你們的網站要給人家完整的訊息。"],["王次長時思：是，我們強化這個網站的說明。"],["黃委員珊珊：第二個就是剛剛實名制的部分，實名制，數發部的報告裡面完全沒有提到這個部分是怎麼回事啊？所以數發部不再協助實名制的事務了嗎？唐鳳部長提過很多次實名制啊！"],["林副署長俊秀：我們未來會積極來協助，因為我們電簽法這邊已經在二讀通過。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，我給數發部、文化部及體育署建議，就是當時在疫情的期間，我們在臺北市，當時小巨蛋所有的演唱會都必須實名制，它是做得到的，只是要不要做，而且疫情期間做得到，我想普通時間也做得到，如果可以做要求的話，其實是場館業者，我們政府一起來要求他們做這件事，這樣才能夠杜絕所謂的黃牛猖獗。另外，你們的網站麻煩在一個月之內改善，好嗎？"],["王次長時思：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","范雲","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","黃珊珊","黃捷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","邱志偉","張啓楷","羅智強","林倩綺","林楚茵","劉建國"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列\n席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.9590937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.392218750000001,"end":16.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.31971875,"end":15.640343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.859718750000003,"end":16.180343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.14221875,"end":18.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.19284375,"end":17.83409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.500343750000003,"end":21.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.32284375,"end":50.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.774093750000006,"end":59.228468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.48159375,"end":61.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.04659375000001,"end":71.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.99846875,"end":78.11159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.90471875,"end":87.81471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.52909375,"end":80.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.95909375000001,"end":82.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.77659375,"end":109.38096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.27846875,"end":92.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.87284375,"end":94.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.51596875000001,"end":122.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.40096875,"end":117.12659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.81346875000001,"end":125.74971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.30659375,"end":166.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.32346875,"end":129.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.95159375,"end":130.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.82159375,"end":1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我給速發部一個建議還有文化部跟體育署建議就是當時在疫情的期間我們在台北市當時小巨蛋所有的演唱會都必須實名制它是做得到的只是要不要做?"},{"start":308.328,"end":308.448,"text":"好,謝謝委員。"}]}},{"id":"151872","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151872","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e68476e3f60e07e2b3055d9f022d149edd3cba397b1f8b3c9cef8a19ad8d4174405ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:42:47 - 11:49:54","影片長度":"00:07:07","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":427,"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:49:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T11:42:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1078,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時42分）謝謝主席，本席想邀請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還有詹主任。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["主席：詹主任，請。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果必要時有問到法務部，你們就主動上來，謝謝。","楊瓊瓔發言，今天我們審查兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案，本席也提出修正動議，就是第三條的部分在第二項增加了數位發展，部長，你同意吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是不會反對啦！我們樂觀其成。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，絕對同意，因為上次我們已經討論過了，即還沒有加入的時候，你預計要怎麼做。好，同意。","接下來就是本席要增加第八條之一，也就是主管機關得知網頁資料有第四章之犯罪嫌疑情事，認有阻止犯罪、危害之發生或避免急迫危險，須即時處置之必要時，得通知目的事業主管機關及網路內容防護機構，對此可直接移除或下架被害人之性影像，或停止解析與犯罪有關之網域名稱，同意吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我們同意。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，非常感謝，所以到時候我們逐條時就要來讓它加入。","第三十六條的部分，也就是大家一致認為必須要加重刑罰，所以本席將原先的一年以上七年以下，改為處十年以上無期徒刑，併科罰金的部分由100萬提升為200萬以下。第二個，也就是在物品、語音或圖畫的部分，由原先的三年以上到十年，本席提的是處十二年以上的有期徒刑，由原先的300萬元罰金提升為600萬元；同時，強迫影像的部分處七年以上有期徒刑併科罰金500萬元以下，本席的提案是由七年以上改為十五年以上，併科罰金的部分由500萬元提升為1,000萬元。請教部長的看法。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為這涉及刑罰衡平性的問題跟其他罪責，我想這個問題是不是請法務部回答？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們一個原則，我先聽你的意見，因為你是主其事的單位，也就是刑罰提升，罰金也要提升，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分方向上我們贊同。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們是同一個方向。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，但提高的程度到什麼程度，可能要跟其他……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席提出的是如此，到整體討論時我們討論一個共同方向就是提升金額、罰金以及提升刑罰的部分，這是大家都一致認同的，法務部也點頭，我們希望朝這個方向，讓大家、社會大眾可以安心。法務部要不要回答一下？"],["汪參事南均：跟委員報告，提升刑責的刑度，我們原則上認同，但這必須跟其他法條，包括刑法的妨害秘密、妨害性私密、不實性影像罪等要從長考量，要有衡平性、相當性和相稱性。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，很高興聽到法務部和我們主辦單位衛福部、數發部都同意這個方向，也就是數發部加入；第二個是刑期增加；第三個是罰金增加，這幾個方向大家有共識，到時候再就細項部分做討論。","接下來本席要請教部長兩個議題，讓我們最難過的是網路上的影像，兒少性剝削的部分，通報案件在2019年是1,213件，2020年是2,282件，去年更高達三千多件，我講到這些數字都覺得很難過。你也公然說在法律未修訂之前會委託民間的網路趕快去巡查，現在進度如何？"],["薛部長瑞元：現在還是要先找一些這方面的專家看招標文件的內容怎麼定。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們多久可以定出來？這很需要。"],["薛部長瑞元：上次我說兩個星期定出來，應該還要一個禮拜多。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：照原來的時間，換句話說大概還要一個星期的時間可以定出來，趕快圍堵。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，必須先把這個文件做出來才能夠公開招標。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：速度加快，同仁辛苦一點，趕快圍堵，再一個星期後就可以向社會大眾說。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，文件出來還要公開招標、公開閱覽。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們預估大概多少可以執行？"],["薛部長瑞元：可能要一個月，一個月把它決標出去。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就是現在往後一個禮拜可以把文件弄清楚，我們希望在一個月後就可以立即呈現，是嗎？本席的解讀是如此。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，可以招標出去，我們希望這樣子。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，就趕快加油，好不好？因為這太可惡了，要趕快圍堵，有些受害者終身都無法走出這個陰霾，所以要趕快加油，照這個時間。","最後一個議題是訪視制度，上次本席也告訴你，因為剴剴事件發生後，我們很難過，訪視人員不夠，你要怎麼去處理？上次本席也跟你討論過，本席要你告訴我，你們要怎麼協助這些訪視人員？你們要怎麼樣去協助、怎麼樣去加強？"],["薛部長瑞元：兩個方向，第一個是有關於全日托的一些特別案件，我們加強訪視的頻率。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們現在說一年要到6次。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，一年要到6次。第二部分是訪視的時候，我們會定指引出來，等於是一個check list，去的時候要看什麼東西、要問什麼東西，讓每個去做訪視的人不會漏掉。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：更細膩。人員不足的部分呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前來看，我們對特定的對象去增加訪視的次數，我們有跟地方社會局談過、討論過，以現在的人力大概還可以。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們去盤點，要滾動式檢討，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要人家謹慎，你還是要給人家資源，你去盤點，我們一起好好來照顧，好嗎？謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員的質詢。","接下來請陳瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1","speakers":["王育敏","黃捷","蘇清泉","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","陳冠廷","李坤城","許宇甄","沈伯洋","王世堅","陳菁徽","王美惠","王鴻薇","張雅琳","何欣純","范雲","林思銘","林月琴","陳昭姿","廖偉翔","劉建國","黃國昌","林淑芬","陳俊宇","王正旭","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳亭妃","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","李彥秀","蔡易餘","莊瑞雄","楊曜","盧縣一","涂權吉","羅智強","黃仁","沈發惠","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一\n條條文修正草案」案；二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十\n九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案；三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例\n第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案；六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童\n及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之\n一條文草案」案；十一、委員李坤城等 22 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案；十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案；十\n四、委員廖偉翔等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草\n案」案；十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草\n案」案；十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十\n七、委員黃建賓等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草\n案」案；十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修\n正草案」案；十九、委員王世堅等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十、委員陳菁徽等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十\n一、委員王美惠等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二十\n二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員王鴻薇\n等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬\n具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二\n十六、委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委\n員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案；\n二十八、委員劉建國等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n委員柯志恩等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十、委員陳素月\n等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十一、委員范雲等17人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十二、委員林俊憲等21人擬具「兒童及\n少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十三、委員林思銘等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝\n削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十四、委員張雅琳等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條\n例部分條文修正草案」案；三十五、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條\n文修正草案」案；三十六、委員林月琴等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.6040937500000005,"end":7.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.552843750000001,"end":9.599093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.52721875,"end":12.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":13.56471875,"end":14.340968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.58159375,"end":14.020343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":14.62784375,"end":15.404093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.73721875,"end":20.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":21.242843750000002,"end":25.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.59221875,"end":28.684718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":29.02221875,"end":40.37909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.969718750000006,"end":41.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.01596875,"end":46.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.260343750000004,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":89.14784375,"end":92.05034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.05034375000001,"end":92.87721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.87721875000001,"end":155.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.77034375000002,"end":163.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":163.61721875,"end":171.88596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.68846875,"end":167.51534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.03846875000002,"end":168.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.46409375000002,"end":174.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.45096875000002,"end":176.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.42971875,"end":182.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.15471875,"end":187.84971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.96846875,"end":185.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":188.38971875000001,"end":203.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.62784375,"end":204.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.01159375,"end":225.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.45784375000002,"end":211.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.42784375000002,"end":214.78221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.94596875000002,"end":220.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.87409375000001,"end":220.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.02534375000002,"end":245.00534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":245.52846875,"end":246.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.99659375000002,"end":248.58284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":248.68409375000002,"end":276.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.83159375,"end":286.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":277.42221875,"end":277.43909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":277.45596875,"end":277.79346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":285.80909375000005,"end":287.20971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.20971875000004,"end":294.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":288.12096875000003,"end":288.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.36096875000004,"end":291.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":294.55034375,"end":300.06846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.52909375,"end":296.81159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.68909375000004,"end":304.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":300.38909375000003,"end":301.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":302.00909375000003,"end":302.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":302.61659375,"end":308.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.28721875,"end":304.69221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.41721875,"end":316.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":310.21034375,"end":311.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":312.37034375,"end":312.87659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":314.04096875000005,"end":314.46284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":315.49221875,"end":328.62096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.78284375000004,"end":320.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.41971875,"end":320.50409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":320.55471875,"end":320.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.65596875,"end":322.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":322.02284375,"end":322.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.41909375,"end":324.70596875},{"speaker"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list,去的時候要看什麼東西,要問什麼東西,讓每一個去的,去做訪視的更細膩,不會漏掉。"},{"start":395.757,"end":422.626,"text":"那人員不足的部分呢?人員目前來看的話,我們在特定的一些對象去增加這個防制的次數的話,我們都有跟地方的社會局有談過,那討論過。以現在的人力大概還可以。你們去盤點啦,滾動式檢討好不好?你要人家謹慎,你還是要給人家那個資源嘛,對不對?你去盤點,我們一起好好來照顧,好嗎?謝謝!"},{"start":425.254,"end":425.518,"text":"謝謝楊瓊英委員"}]}},{"id":"151871","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151871","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e643f3ef5a1c617dbb5b40abc3f7af24af3cba397b1f8b3c9c29602ffc9a9b6cbf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"11:38:56 - 11:43:30","影片長度":"00:04:34","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。\n\n備註：4月29日（星期一）、5月1日(星期三)【兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":274,"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:43:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T11:38:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.79034375,"end":6.105968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.283468750000001,"end":4.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.644718750000003,"end":15.167843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.26909375,"end":31.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.04284375,"end":66.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.80534375,"end":86.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.13971875,"end":99.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.92221875000001,"end":142.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.91159375,"end":153.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.63159375,"end":155.50034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.37784375,"end":158.31846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.45346875,"end":166.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.23284375,"end":167.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.81909375,"end":174.41721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.32846875,"end":183.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.71534375000002,"end":200.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.23159375,"end":229.54784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.22284375,"end":231.37034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.64034375000003,"end":233.78346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.95221875000001,"end":240.34784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.69784375,"end":243.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.61721875,"end":251.62034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.92409375000003,"end":259.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.17159375,"end":274.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.20346875,"end":274.30034375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.776,"end":15.162,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":16.548,"end":31.094,"text":"今天非常感謝主席排審跟新住民有關權益保障專法的審查本席從馬來西亞來台灣就學、就業、落地生和組織家庭"},{"start":32.494,"end":56.122,"text":"我也是一位新住民那深刻的體認到廣大新住民群體跟外籍人士在台生活所面臨的一些挑戰那其中呢橫跨了語言醫療教育就業文化等各種面向其實我在上一屆的時候就已經就新住民權益保障的部分跟行政單位做了很多很多的"},{"start":56.522,"end":68.071,"text":"案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 審查"},{"start":87.206,"end":99.481,"text":"我們居然還是看不到院辦我真的很想問一句到底院辦什麼時候要出來畢竟從上一屆討論到現在我一直認為說行政單位應該要送院辦進來我想知道你們的困難點到底在哪裡"},{"start":102.92,"end":120.225,"text":"這個部分如同剛剛次長也已經有做一些說明了其實我們也都不斷的在努力精進那現有的機制也處理過很多的問題我想委員也擔任過我們的這個協調會報的委員在早先還沒到立法院之前也當過我們的這個"},{"start":121.745,"end":141.886,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件事項﹑新住民權益保障法草案案件事項﹑新住民權益保障法草案案件事項﹑新住民權益保障法草案案件事項﹑新住民權益保障法草案案件事項﹑新住民權益保障法草案案件事項﹑新住民權益保障法草案案件事項﹑新住民權益保障法草案案件事項﹑新住民權益保障法草案案件事項﹑新住民權益保障法草案案件事項�"},{"start":143.147,"end":165.761,"text":"我們要完善新住民的這個基本的權益的一個保障,那新住民定義到底要把它在哪樣的一個範圍上...所以署長您的意思就是說,你們不是沒有願版,是有願版。未來會有願版嗎?這是我們的重點。那如果是有願版,就是說前提你們就是還要做更多的討論。"},{"start":167.862,"end":174.099,"text":"因為我是覺得說這是一個非常重大的法案沒有院版我是覺得這個部分說不過去"},{"start":175.396,"end":200.223,"text":"新住民不管是說基本法也好或權益保障法我認為這四國家非常重大的法案只有委員版沒有院版我真的覺得這個說不過去所以我們想說你們到底有沒有院版如果說有院版只是說有些地方有些定義必須釐清本席可以接受就好像新住民的法定定義到底是什麼到現在沒有一個結論"},{"start":201.363,"end":229.28,"text":"早期的所謂的新住民我們都是認為就是婚姻移民可是後來我們有依照人才專法我們有高階人才因為高階人才入籍這算不算新住民那還有我們所謂的中階技術移工這個以後入籍算不算新住民到底這個定義在哪裡我們到現在沒有一個法律的這個定義那行政大會到目前為止也沒有給我們一個合理的解釋到底新住民到底含了哪些人"},{"start":230.293,"end":258.621,"text":"所以我在想說要討論OK 可以可是不能放著委員板都出來了你們到現在還沒有動作這是讓我們沒有辦法接受的地方新住民的定義可以找我們幾個委員我也好 蔓越洲委員也好我們都是新住民我們可以來討論可是目前我們好像連這個討論都沒有所以我們真的不曉得行政院的態度到底是什麼看起來不支持可是就是沒有院板出來"},{"start":261.192,"end":274.07,"text":"所以我就希望就是說這個行政單位你們真的不要在那邊拖我真的希望說院版出來大家一起討論我覺得這才是對這個重大法案的一個尊重好以上謝謝好非常謝謝羅美玲委員"}]}},{"id":"151870","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151870","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e697ff989ab364368a5b40abc3f7af24af3cba397b1f8b3c9c2eac597dcc0aeba65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"11:31:14 - 11:38:29","影片長度":"00:07:15","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。\n\n備註：4月29日（星期一）、5月1日(星期三)【兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":435,"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:38:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T11:31:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":991,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（11時31分）謝謝主席。因為時間關係，本席想請內政部花次長。"],["主席：請花次長。"],["徐委員欣瑩：移民署鐘署長。"],["主席：移民署鐘署長。"],["徐委員欣瑩：陸委會法政處周處長。"],["主席：周處長。"],["花次長敬群：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好。首先本席想先請教陸委會周處長。"],["周處長鳴瑞：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：外配歸化需要放棄國籍，為什麼陸配不需要？你簡答。"],["周處長鳴瑞：現在兩岸條例針對大陸配偶取得我們的身分是用戶籍來處理，適用的法律不同。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，外配跟陸配適用的法是不一樣的，對不對？"],["周處長鳴瑞：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：外配適用國籍法，陸配適用兩岸條例，因為適用不同的法，也就是陸配沒有放棄國籍，完全是因為用的是兩岸條例，對不對？"],["周處長鳴瑞：兩岸條例不處理國籍的問題。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以今天本席在這邊質詢這個部分，主要是要導正視聽，因為外面很多人一直覺得為什麼有不同，是因為依據的法令不同。","接著，本席想請教移民署鐘署長。"],["鐘署長景琨：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：移民署在4月26號有公告，消除一切形式種族歧視國際公約（後面都簡稱ICERD）國際審查結論性意見與建議出爐，請問依照行政院防制人口販運及消除種族歧視協調會報設置要點，是由移民署署長來擔任執行秘書綜理會報有關作業，請回答是或不是？"],["鐘署長景琨：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：請問署長，這個公約重不重要？"],["鐘署長景琨：重要，所以我們才會在上個禮拜請了4個國際委員來做國際審查。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在中央法規涉及違反ICERD之虞的優先檢視清單裡面列管的法規有26項，涉及的機關包含了原民會、內政部、教育部、法務部、工程會、農業部、文化部、司法院、銓敘部以及國防部等11個機關，解除列管也就是完成修正的只有3項，完成率只有10%。今年3月20號才將法規檢視會議紀錄上網公開，歷經這麼多年了，整個完成率只有10%……"],["鐘署長景琨：委員，應該不是這樣講。這是在一個我們推動ICERD的推動計畫裡面，我們去檢視各部會的相關法令有疑慮的才放出來。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，現在整個為什麼只有3項？"],["鐘署長景琨：我們在這兩年當中，很多都完成了，這一次……"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，解除列管只有3項，其他都還沒有完成。"],["鐘署長景琨：因為這是第一次的國家報告，我們是第一次報告。"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是這個已經很多年了，對不對？"],["鐘署長景琨：的確是很多年，但是我們後面來做。"],["徐委員欣瑩：因為本席時間有限。接著，本席想請教涉及內政部的有6項，花次長，您認為還需要多久時間來修改法規？"],["花次長敬群：我想逐步處理，該做的當然逐步處理……"],["徐委員欣瑩：但是你們拖太久了。"],["花次長敬群：其實……"],["徐委員欣瑩：原民會有4項，今天副主委沒到，之後我再問。","再來本席要請問鐘署長，現在大家在關心原住民、新住民，臺灣地區人民受到各種歧視的情況是否嚴重？"],["鐘署長景琨：都有個案，我們在媒體上也都有看到……"],["徐委員欣瑩：都有個案，OK。截至目前為止，居住在臺灣地區的人民受歧視申訴審議案件有多少？"],["鐘署長景琨：從97年到目前為止，本署受理的有36件。"],["徐委員欣瑩：這36件，你覺得算多不多？不多嘛！因為97年到113年有16年了，16年36件，但是本席要告訴你，所謂的申訴是要在兩個月內以中文還有書面為之，對不對？是不是？申訴必須用中文而且書面？"],["鐘署長景琨：這個是我們相關法規的規定。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，這樣的法規有合乎ICERD公約的本意嗎？如果只限中文書寫，如何有助於歧視的救濟？很多新住民受到歧視要申訴，第一個，要他用中文還要用書面，不要說新住民，一般人真的要用書面、用中文寫都不見得這麼會寫了，何況是新住民來到臺灣？所以這個部分，你怎麼看待？"],["鐘署長景琨：我們可以來精進。我們來看看是不是……"],["徐委員欣瑩：這個就是最大的問題！"],["鐘署長景琨：針對這個部分，因為公文書一般都是以中文……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你們要去思考看怎麼樣……"],["鐘署長景琨：這個部分我看怎麼樣來精進。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不然這16年怎麼可能只有36件？你看這麼多委員一直在立法院為民喉舌，一直在關心這件事，但是原來問題就出在我們不能只看表面的數字，其實有很多人受到歧視求助無門，公部門的門檻太高，要書面、中文，他怎麼可能提出？臺灣人也不一定懂外語，到了其他國家要隨時能夠寫，那是不可能的！"],["鐘署長景琨：跟委員報告，我們也不至於都……我們只要知道他有要申訴，我們的服務站等等都願意來協助。"],["徐委員欣瑩：最後，本席想請教內政部跟陸委會，針對政治庇護，現行的機制是什麼？臺灣有沒有申請政治庇護的標準？"],["鐘署長景琨：目前我們的難民法還沒有完成，雖然過去曾經在先前的會期有提出……"],["徐委員欣瑩：政治庇護有沒有法規？能不能建立制度、法制化？"],["鐘署長景琨：我們現在是依循國際公約的精神做個案處理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：你說依據精神，但是執行面很有問題，所以這一塊本席希望你們要儘快來建立制度、法制化，可以嗎？"],["鐘署長景琨：是，我們繼續來處理。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐欣瑩委員的質詢。謝謝次長，謝謝署長，謝謝處長。","繼續請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","賴士葆、賴士葆、賴士葆委員不在。","請羅美玲委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":448,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","丁學忠","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","羅美玲"],"page_start":345,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新\n住民權益保障法草案」案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(三)審查委\n員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」\n案、( 五) 審查委員蘇巧慧等 26 人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案；二、繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 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外配規劃需要放棄國籍,為何陸配不需要?你檢答。」"},{"start":32.42,"end":49.788,"text":"現在兩岸條例針對大陸配偶取得我們的身份是用戶籍來處理所以外配跟陸配適用的法是不一樣的外配適用國籍法陸配適用兩岸條例"},{"start":51.169,"end":64.543,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 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及新住民"},{"start":225.065,"end":251.124,"text":"中署長本席要請問我們現在大家在關心原住民、新住民我們台灣地區人民受到各種歧視的情況是否嚴重?是否?都有各案那截至目前為止居住在台灣地區的人民受歧視申訴審議案件有多少?"},{"start":252.443,"end":280.166,"text":"當目前為止從97年到目前為止本署受理的有36件對這36件你覺得算多不多不多嘛因為97年到113年這樣有6年了6年了36件但是本席要告訴你這個所謂的申訴是要在兩個月內以中文還有書面為之對不對"},{"start":281.516,"end":282.399,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":286.514,"end":304.426,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案。 〈新住民權益保障法草案案。 〉審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 〉審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 〉審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 〉審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 〉審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案。 〉審查委員"},{"start":312.051,"end":320.843,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":328.374,"end":337.421,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件"},{"start":349.631,"end":350.412,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":368.835,"end":392.123,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 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Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。\n\n備註：4月29日（星期一）、5月1日(星期三)【兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":396,"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:30:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T11:24:22+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":918,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（11時24分）謝謝主席。我們再請花次跟移民署署長一起來好嗎？"],["主席：請花次長、鐘署長。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還有原民會。"],["主席：原民會是大概下午。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：下午嗎？好，我們先來討論這個問題，因為4分鐘而已，謝謝。"],["花次長敬群：楊委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：新住民基本法，次長你支持嗎？"],["花次長敬群：我們多討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多討論是支持嗎？"],["花次長敬群：如果說真的有它的迫切重要或必要性……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有迫切需要啊！"],["花次長敬群：當然我們絕對……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：就支持了？"],["花次長敬群：就應該要做一個適合的討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：署長，你支持吧？"],["鐘署長景琨：我的意見跟次長一樣。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：意見是怎麼樣一樣？如果有需要就支持？你是移民署署長，你認為有沒有需要？"],["鐘署長景琨：這個我剛剛講了……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這是嚴肅的議題，不要笑。有沒有需要？你認為有沒有需要？"],["鐘署長景琨：我們目前就是希望再把這些問題多做一些釐清。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：多做一些釐清，是還有哪裡不釐清？他已經來我們這邊這麼久了，像麥委員來了28年，美玲更讚了，都幾十年了，你這樣子幾十年、廾、三十年都還釐不清，每一次選舉，每一黨的候選人都說，我們最重視新住民，有行政權還不做，花次，為什麼目前為止行政院沒有版本？為什麼？是不重視還是還沒有整合成功？"],["花次長敬群：都不是，我們絕對重視，而且……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：為什麼到現在所有各政黨，中國國民黨提出……"],["花次長敬群：報告委員，不是說提出版本就表示很棒……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：民進黨也提出，民眾黨也提出。"],["花次長敬群：因為有可能會有副作用，我們要釐清。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：棒不棒不是您說的。"],["花次長敬群：我們要釐清它的副作用，看哪一種方案比較好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，但問題是你到目前為止仍舊沒有版本，表示你不重視嘛！你連版本都沒有，要怎麼討論？"],["花次長敬群：這樣講是不對的，沒有說有版本就……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是不對的，那你永遠讓他們沒有版本嗎？"],["花次長敬群：其實我們不斷地在精進各種對新住民的協助，而……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你不斷地精進，精進了幾十年還不夠嗎？"],["花次長敬群：其實現在的版本還有很多副作用，還有很多問題需要釐清。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼叫副作用？你這樣講更嚴肅囉！你要講清楚喔！"],["花次長敬群：好比說新住民的定義是什麼，可能就要講得非常非常清楚，不然……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：新住民的定義，目前的人員10年內增加10萬，現在的總人數大概60萬，如果再包括新住民的家庭成員、子女，超過百萬！都已經超過百萬，難道我們臺灣還不重視他嗎？不重視嗎？"],["花次長敬群：報告委員，其實全世界各個國家都沒有新住民基本法……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你針對臺灣、我們自己，你管到這裡來，請問……"],["花次長敬群：其實新住民並不是一個一輩子永久的身分，所以這個部分有很多地方需要被討論……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他們所碰到的問題，一個政府如果是有為要處理……"],["花次長敬群：當然要處理，他們遇到……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你怎麼處理？你的語言、你的文化……"],["花次長敬群：所以它未必是要訂基本法嘛！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們一年度發展基金多少錢？"],["花次長敬群：10億。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：一年度的基金10億，你們不斷地開課程，你們有沒有注意到一個問題？你們將每一個人抓來上課，上完課之後呢？我再請問，上完課之後，懂的人他繼續要怎麼生活？署長，你來回答。每一年花10億，你所有的課程一直上，對不對？"],["鐘署長景琨：我們不是每年花10億，是基金的規模10億。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對啊！一個……"],["鐘署長景琨：剛剛像委員講的，其實我們是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你暫停你的回答。我們的發展基金10億的規模就在這裡，對不對？然後每一年你們會辦活動，給他們講習，有重要慶典時，請他們穿國服出來，表示你們尊重他們。本席具體請教，已經上完課的人，接下來怎麼辦？告訴我你輔導他們什麼？"],["鐘署長景琨：我們其實是看他的需求，比如說他要就業或是怎麼樣，其實在各地我們都有一個新住民家庭服務中心，我們的服務站也有所謂的新住民家庭網絡，我們來協助他們，只要他們有需求，我們也有個案的協助，就是只要新住民有需求，我們會有相關的機制讓他們可以來觸及，我們也會提供各種協助。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：但是面對到的問題很嚴峻、很考驗、困難重重，表示目前我們所做的沒有辦法去應對新住民所需要的，譬如說他們遭受到家暴、他們的工作權益，你們叫他來上課，上完課之後，你怎麼輔導他？你們的輔導成功率有多少？你們一年的KPI、要怎麼樣協助他們，有多少？你可以告訴我嗎？"],["鐘署長景琨：剛剛委員所提的，比如說遭受家暴或怎麼樣，其實這些都有相關的法令，我們也會做通報，也會做轉介，相關的問題，我們也不可能他發生家暴問題，我們不處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：次長跟署長在這裡，準總統賴清德自己的政見就包括建立國家級統一通譯制度、規劃培訓課程、認證考試、通譯費用及相關規範等等。請問目前你們的規劃是什麼？"],["花次長敬群：現在已經在做了，而且通譯的精進和薪水的提高今年都已經開始了。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席再請教包括黑戶寶寶的問題……"],["主席：瓊瓔委員，時間到了，等一下逐條再來討論，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席要再一次請教次長，你代表內政部，署長也在這裡，你支不支持這個法案？"],["花次長敬群：我們支持幫新住民照顧得更好，讓他們生活更好，但是方案上面，我們可以討論……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：支不支持法案？支不支持專法？"],["花次長敬群：方案上面，可以討論。作法上面，可以討論。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請教支不支持專法？"],["花次長敬群：我沒有支持或不支持，如果它比較好，我們當然支持。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你沒有支持、不支持？"],["花次長敬群：我沒有支持或不支持，如果它更好，當然支持。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：行政院的版本什麼時候要來？"],["花次長敬群：我覺得方案上面如果可行，我們就來做嘛！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：還遙遙無期嘛！怎麼對新住民交代呢？"],["花次長敬群：今天不要把這個問題變成這種轉換，並不是有專法就比較好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：把你認為可以的書面資料給本席，好嗎？"],["主席：謝謝次長，謝謝署長，謝謝瓊瓔委員。","繼續請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":448,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","丁學忠","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","羅美玲"],"page_start":345,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新\n住民權益保障法草案」案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(三)審查委\n員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」\n案、( 五) 審查委員蘇巧慧等 26 人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案；二、繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1133601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":5.4478437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.97596875,"end":3.1359687500000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.734718750000001,"end":11.489093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.76846875,"end":6.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.40534375,"end":8.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.02971875,"end":9.582218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.61971875,"end":15.859718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.77096875,"end":18.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.96909375,"end":18.660968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.67784375,"end":27.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.84221875,"end":20.17971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.22971875,"end":25.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.08159375,"end":28.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.08159375,"end":28.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.24159375,"end":29.579093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.43971875,"end":31.367843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.739093750000002,"end":33.291593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.73034375,"end":37.24034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.611593750000004,"end":39.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.06721875,"end":41.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.38721875,"end":43.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.53034375,"end":55.48221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.23909375,"end":48.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.62221875,"end":51.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.03096875,"end":58.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.42721875,"end":57.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.46471875,"end":61.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.164718750000006,"end":64.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.51034375,"end":65.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.28221875,"end":71.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.63159375000001,"end":75.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.52534375,"end":92.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.16909375,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.96221875,"end":89.04659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":92.53971875,"end":96.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.14721875000001,"end":93.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.69971875,"end":96.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.11721875,"end":96.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":96.92721875000001,"end":104.11596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.97784375,"end":97.88909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.88909375,"end":97.92284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.92284375000001,"end":98.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.03659375000001,"end":100.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.53409375000001,"end":109.36409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":108.60471875,"end":111.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.25846875,"end":111.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.03471875000001,"end":111.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.94596875,"end":112.68846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":111.96284375,"end":112.09784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.78971875,"end":114.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":113.58284375000001,"end":117.95346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.29971875000001,"end":120.13034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.37534375000001,"end":118.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":120.13034375000001,"end":124.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.14721875000001,"end":120.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.00784375,"end":121.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.37034375,"end":126.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":126.82971875000001,"end":133.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.23471875000001,"end":130.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.66034375,"end":130.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.47846875000002,"end":151.56846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.50096875,"end":169.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.26034375,"end":152.93534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.12471875,"end":160.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.02159375000002,"end":169.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.06784375,"end":169.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.09721875000002,"end":170.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.97471875000002,"end":171.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":172.18971875,"end":175.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.35846875000001,"end":182.43284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":178.28159375,"end":179.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.22659375,"end":181.55534375000002},{"speake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《新住民權益保障法草案》案。"},{"start":289.907,"end":305.168,"text":"譬如說他們遭受到家暴他們的工作權益你們出來上課上完課你怎麼輔導他你怎麼輔導他你們的輔導成功率有多少你們一年的KPI要怎麼樣協助他們有多少"},{"start":306.53,"end":307.031,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":324.614,"end":351.136,"text":"跟署長在這裡準總統賴清德志祺的政見就包括建立國家級統一通益制度規劃培訓課程認證考試通益費用及相關的規範等等請問摩傑你們的規劃是什麼現在已經在做了現在已經在做了而且在通益的經濟和清水的提高都已經今年都開始了所以本席再請教因為包括黑戶寶寶的問題"},{"start":352.837,"end":368.722,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．"},{"start":380.907,"end":380.947,"text":"審查委員"}]}},{"id":"151868","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151868","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6c42d048b275b3ccc5b40abc3f7af24af3cba397b1f8b3c9ca61de74c1b237c8e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"11:16:08 - 11:24:08","影片長度":"00:08:00","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。\n\n備註：4月29日（星期一）、5月1日(星期三)【兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":480,"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:24:08+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T11:16:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":891,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（11時16分）主席、與會同仁。請移民署署長。"],["主席：我們請移民署鐘署長。"],["鐘署長景琨：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：署長好。今天審查新住民基本法草案。根據移民署去年的統計，臺灣的新住民已經超過59萬，大專院生約10萬人，外國專業人員5萬人，移工有70萬人，總數有151萬人，這個數字真的很嚇人。移民署的業務，不管是人力資源、經費以及整個人口政策，導致新住民的權益保障並不周全，因此本席也認為應訂定專法保障他們的權益，讓他們也更能融入臺灣的社會。請問署長的看法呢？"],["鐘署長景琨：就如同剛剛內政部次長跟前面幾位委員說明的，目前有機制提供照顧服務的措施，至於我們是不是要訂定一個專法更周延的保障，這個是可以檢討的。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝。現在新住民人口成長的速度真的太過驚人，新住民的學生就已經占了一半，有28萬5,000人。我們都知道新住民的語言不同，也有來這邊就學的學生，我們要怎樣規劃比較周全？很多新住民來都兼專業翻譯師，很多機關都請他們做通譯的工作。針對通譯的工作，各縣政府定的標準也不太一樣，翻譯費也不高，這是我們未來要檢討的部分。"],["鐘署長景琨：是，謝謝委員的垂詢，有關通譯制度，去年底行政院在新住民協調會報裡面也指示內政部移民署，訂定通譯制度的精進方案，4月9號我們也有一個加強措施。有關他通譯的費用，4月1號以後有提高，比如說公共事務通譯的費用，前2個小時就以1,000元計算，第3個小時起就500元，夜間再加倍，這個都已經逐步調升。"],["吳委員琪銘：署長，我們如果規劃得越健全……現在臺灣面臨少子化，很多學生要是有專業能繼續留在臺灣，也可以彌補我們這一塊欠缺的地方，所以這部分我們一定要來推動，尤其在新住民的區域，署長，你也曾經參加過嘛，我每一年都會辦一個新住民故鄉的月……"],["鐘署長景琨：有。"],["吳委員琪銘：我們的活動讓他們覺得有融入臺灣，讓大家融合在一起，讓他們覺得對臺灣充滿希望，讓很多學生可以繼續留在臺灣，我們的出發點應該是這樣會比較正確。"],["鐘署長景琨：有啦，我們對委員也真的敬佩，委員每年都有舉辦新住民的活動，其實是促進我們的社會對多元文化的一種認知、一種尊重、體現，這是大家要共同繼續推動的，尤其是移民署，我們會會同相關部門繼續來做這些工作。"],["吳委員琪銘：對，因為我每一年都在辦，署長有參加過新住民的活動，新住民跟我們臺灣人都融入在一起，我覺得整個氣氛都非常好。"],["鐘署長景琨：真好。"],["吳委員琪銘：其實我們可以來嘗試舉辦幾場大的活動，表示我們政府也很關心這些新住民。"],["鐘署長景琨：好。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝署長。","我請花次長。"],["主席：有請花次長。"],["花次長敬群：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：次長好。看到這個數字，我感到很擔憂，因為臺灣的生育率一直減少，既然減少，我們就要去討論為什麼我們的生育率會一直減少。我們的生育率現在已經負成長了，今年是龍年，但龍年你又沒有辦法提升，這就是我們存在的危機。尤其現在高學歷、高收入的族群反而不願意生、不願意結婚，這就是存在著他們的經濟壓力，現在有些人不願意生育，就是因為他們不想讓自己的負擔太重，所以這是我們一定要去檢討的，不然再這樣繼續下去，對臺灣絕對不是很好、很正面的現象。次長，你有什麼辦法來改善？"],["花次長敬群：在臺灣生小孩，有九成六以上是先結婚才生小孩，所以結婚是生小孩一個很重要的基礎，所以要提升大家的交友、提升大家的婚姻，確實就人口政策、在臺灣的資料看起來，這是一個很重要的路徑，只要結婚的人越多，生小孩的人就會多。當然這個部分，對家庭觀念的宣傳、深化也很重要，像我去新加坡或去某些國家的時候，看到他們會在公車等很多地方去傳遞一些有關於家是很棒、很美好這樣的觀念，這樣的宣傳資料在很多地方都看得到，所以我覺得我們也應該讓大家瞭解家庭這個觀念，不要只是去說因為房價太高、因為大家要讀書，所以不要結婚，因為我們都在說很多負面的事情，我們正面的事情、正面的聲音說得不夠……"],["吳委員琪銘：因為我的時間差不多了，我要跟次長補充一下，高所得跟高學歷反而結婚率減少、反而生小孩減少，這點就是我們要去研究、去討論的，好不好？"],["花次長敬群：好，我們對高所得、高學歷當然也是鼓勵，因為他們比較養得起，所以我們應該鼓勵他們要結婚。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝吳琪銘召委，謝謝次長，謝謝署長。","繼續請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":448,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","丁學忠","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","羅美玲"],"page_start":345,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新\n住民權益保障法草案」案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(三)審查委\n員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」\n案、( 五) 審查委員蘇巧慧等 26 人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案；二、繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 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審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草"},{"start":336.129,"end":348.377,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會議．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．審查委員羅美玲等18人"},{"start":364.241,"end":382.399,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本"},{"start":383.561,"end":400.814,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住"},{"start":411.141,"end":423.634,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案"},{"start":433.044,"end":436.468,"text":"我認為我們也應該對家庭這方面的觀念讓大家了解。不可以說出家相關,因為大家要住,所以不可以結婚,因為我們都在說很多負面的事情。"},{"start":447.179,"end":447.98,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":466.363,"end":466.383,"text":"案。"}]}},{"id":"151867","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151867","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e69d19e67cff93d5025b40abc3f7af24af3cba397b1f8b3c9c2d37d3f517c779ff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"11:09:40 - 11:15:43","影片長度":"00:06:03","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。\n\n備註：4月29日（星期一）、5月1日(星期三)【兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":363,"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:15:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T11:09:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":866,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（11時9分）主席、各位委員。有請次長。"],["主席：有請花次長。"],["花次長敬群：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：次長好。新住民基本法在內政委員會不是第一次討論，上一屆的時候也有討論過。這個部分我們看內政部的報告，確實新住民的人數不斷的成長，到今年3月底，我國婚姻移民人數共計五十九萬五千多，將近60萬，如果加上子女四十七萬多，真的是超過100萬。立法委員會有這樣的提案，表示現在的法律顯然是不足的。內政部或是其他相關部會的報告必須說明現在的法律已經有哪些規定，如果有不足是哪些不足，而不是說還不需要訂定。像人事行政總處常常用那一條，說不能另外訂定、不能從作用法，這個也不是作用法，那個都不是理由。過去8年來成立了多少新的部會，對不對？有沒有需要？需要！所以人事行政總處以後不要再寫那種規定了。成立了多少的部還有委員會？改來改去的都有，一下子國科會，一下又科技部，一下又改回來，原子能委員會什麼改來改去。當然就是因為他有他的需要，所以這個部分未來要很具體的聚焦到底應該怎麼推動，基本法是一種方式，在各種法律裡面增加也是一種方式。內政部跟相關部會在談這個事情的時候要聚焦，比較具體一點。現在你們的說法、內政部的報告，什麼新住民是否因而被標籤化，像這樣的用詞可能都必須儘量避免。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：次長有什麼說明？"],["花次長敬群：謝謝委員，大家對新住民的關心，我覺得態度都是一樣的，我們當然都希望新住民在臺灣能夠過得更安定。當然法制面這件事情，我會覺得要多討論，不是說一定不行，也不是說訂定新住民基本法好像問題就解決了，我想也不可能，所以要思考怎麼樣把這件事情做得比較到位，釐清問題點到底在哪邊，反而避免徒增一些新的爭議，就像怎麼定義新住民的對象和範圍？即使界定了，如果他不是，什麼時候叫不是？就好像因為婚姻過來的這些新住民，我說他是，但是他一輩子都是嗎？或者他的下一代，我們還該不該把他作為新住民？還是把他變成國人就好？其實這背後有很多社會學上面嚴肅的課題，我們必須要思考。我們在這件事情的態度上認為如果要，可能對象要比較明確先說，OK，也不要再涉及子女可能會比較好等等，這需要大家多討論。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：沒有錯，這個你們要專案處理去研究。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們就以設置新住民發展基金為例，我在內政委會也質詢過幾次，以現在的規模及人數的成長來說，事實上是要檢討的，因為這部分的規模、金額應該有所不足，大家才會說是不是弄一個基本法會更好？會有樣的主張，所以你們要整體的……"],["花次長敬群：這個部分我們來檢討。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為這個必定是臺灣要面對的一個問題，為什麼？因為我們少子女化很嚴重，然後移工來得越來越多，來了就有機會認識、就有機會結婚，對不對？移工越來越多，最近已經開放一萬多人。"],["花次長敬群：了解。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：來了就有機會認識、就有機會結婚，是不是這樣？所以這個部分是一個要面對的問題。"],["花次長敬群：我們來檢討基金規模和每年執行的預算……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：包括後面的這些……"],["花次長敬群：該擴大的我們就來擴大。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：因為時間的關係，各個版本對於新住民的定義，這個就很重要了。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你們要依照各個版本，考量怎麼樣最適切的因應，好不好？"],["花次長敬群：好，謝謝委員。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢，也謝謝次長跟署長。","好，繼續請張嘉郡、張嘉郡、張嘉郡委員不在。","繼續請吳琪銘召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":448,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","丁學忠","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","羅美玲"],"page_start":345,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新\n住民權益保障法草案」案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(三)審查委\n員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」\n案、( 五) 審查委員蘇巧慧等 26 人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案；二、繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 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審查委員張智倫等18人擬具"},{"start":116.14,"end":144.736,"text":"規定這個成立多少的部還有委員會改來改去的都有一下子國科會一下子又科技部一下又改回來原子能委員會又怎麼改來改去當然就是因為他有他的需要所以這個部分這個未來這個要要喊具體的計較到底應該要怎麼樣去"},{"start":145.52,"end":145.6,"text":"案。 審查委員"},{"start":160.66,"end":161.12,"text":"案。 審查委員"},{"start":181.039,"end":197.214,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。"},{"start":204.221,"end":226.693,"text":"也不是說定了新住民基本法好像問題就解決了我想也不可能所以說怎麼樣把這件事情做得比較到位問題點到底在哪邊而反而避免去徒增一些新的爭議啦就像說新住民怎麼定義他的對象和範圍但是即使界定了那他不是什麼時候就好像說"},{"start":228.354,"end":248.776,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案"},{"start":249.537,"end":257.123,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":278.499,"end":304.639,"text":"以現在的規模、人數的成長來說,事實上是要檢討的,因為這個部分的規模、金額都顯然是應該有所不足,大家才會說是不是弄一個基本法才會更好,是會有這樣的,所以你們要一個整體的一個,因為這必定是一個台灣,"},{"start":306.684,"end":332.957,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案件及新住民權益保障法草案案"},{"start":334.074,"end":341.218,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"}]}},{"id":"151866","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151866","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e63a7063137d81556a5b40abc3f7af24af3cba397b1f8b3c9ced10e96a0c6279545ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"11:00:47 - 11:09:15","影片長度":"00:08:28","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。\n\n備註：4月29日（星期一）、5月1日(星期三)【兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":508,"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:09:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T11:00:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":821,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（11時）謝謝主席。各位官員、各位委員，大家早安、大家好。有請次長。"],["主席：有請花次長。"],["花次長敬群：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：次長早安。今天本席非常開心有機會針對新住民基本法修法草案來請教次長，也希望次長這邊，第一個還是要先提出政院的版本，讓新住民基本法可以加強推動。次長，也跟您報告一下，根據國際資料統計，2023年臺灣目前的生育率是全球最低，只有1.09，而且我們可以看到現在新住民人數也是同步的趨緩，從2012年到2022年本國新生兒人數下降30%，新住民的人數下降49%，所以跟次長報告，這是一個警訊，所以對於新住民的保障部分，我覺得應該要加強。等一下要跟次長請教的是有關新住民基金的使用方式，我們等一下會做再更深入的討論。","首先要跟次長請教的是去年7月有一起震驚新住民圈的埔鹽少年事件，就是當時在彰化有一個新住民的新二代被認為是移工，結果被警察毆打，當時讓新住民圈覺得非常的震驚，當然我相信後續政府部門有做了一些處置，請問次長怎麼看這件事情？"],["花次長敬群：我想確實這涉及到多方面的問題，我覺得當然該改進的我們絕對改進，特別是所長或警察局這樣一個作為。其實不管他是移工還是新住民，實際上我們都應該要善待，而不應該因為他是移工，所以可以這樣，我想不可以！移工也不可以！"],["張委員智倫：好，非常感謝次長的分享。所以我希望這個未來我們也要在法令中加強，如果院版的版本有出來的話，也要針對新住民權益的保障，尤其是反歧視的部分，未來希望次長這邊要多幫忙。","這邊首先要請教次長一些問題，有關於剛剛很多委員提到的新住民學歷問題，尤其是東南亞的部分，就本席得知，像越南的部分，好像臺灣只承認大學以上學歷，但因為很多新住民過去可能因為生活的一些問題，有些只有念高中、國中，所以有關學歷承認的部分，是不是請次長要來協助？然後印尼的部分，好像也有相對應同樣的情形，柬埔寨的部分更是缺乏，聽說柬埔寨所有文件，臺灣當局都不承認，所以基本上我相信這有部分會阻礙他們想要來臺灣當新住民的一個問題，這個部分是不是請次長稍微分享一下怎麼樣協助他們關於學歷取得的問題？"],["花次長敬群：報告委員，這件事情在行政院的新住民事務協調會報，其實都陸陸續續在處理，如果還有遺漏我們發現的，後續還是會提報來處理，現階段，本質上都會認證，就是說不是只有大學，而高中以下就沒有，不會！基本上這個部分都會做處理。"],["張委員智倫：好，後續我們會再請次長這邊提一個書面資料。"],["花次長敬群：好，我們再將資料整理給委員。"],["張委員智倫：對。還有，剛剛次長是不是有提到我們有開新住民事務協調會，過去蔡英文政府一年就只有開兩次。"],["花次長敬群：這本來就是規定半年一次。"],["張委員智倫：對。可是就像我跟次長分享的，其實現在新住民的問題相當的多，而且人口數有60萬人，非常的多！是不是請次長可以多開幾次？因為過去馬政府時代，其實半年就開了3次，這樣各部會的協調跟作業會比較完善，這部分是不是次長可以……"],["花次長敬群：好，我們會跟行政院回報。"],["張委員智倫：要多開幾次。因為今天時間的關係，剛剛還有講到非常多有關於通譯的問題，就本席瞭解，以新住民的心聲來講，感覺起來好像只有針對司法跟警政單位的通譯部分比較完善，針對醫療部分的通譯則是相對缺乏，而且很多希望去協助通譯的志工，或者是有領薪水的人，他們所取得的費用都是最低的，也就是他們能獲取到的報酬都是最低的。我希望次長針對這部分……"],["花次長敬群：我們去瞭解。"],["張委員智倫：好，瞭解一下。因為新住民很多時候需要一些醫療資源……"],["花次長敬群：今年其實對所有通譯的費用，我們都有調升，今年都有調升。"],["張委員智倫：對，儘量大家一視同仁，讓醫療部分可以取得比較相對應的照顧。"],["花次長敬群：瞭解。"],["張委員智倫：因為時間的關係，剛剛巧慧委員講到，新住民的認定分有歸化跟沒歸化，很多已經歸化為我們國籍的新住民，他們心裡會覺得有一點點好像被懲罰，就是他們現在很多人投入長照跟日照，這也是臺灣未來發展的重要方向，可是他們在申請一些長照跟日照培訓補助的時候，因為他已經歸化了，所以反而沒辦法申請到比如學習的補助經費，次長這邊是不是可以協助，只要過去是新住民，不要因為有沒有歸化國籍，補助方案就有不同？"],["花次長敬群：這個可能要跟勞動部或衛福部再去瞭解一下狀況。不好意思，因為內政部沒有補助到這個部分。"],["張委員智倫：好，最後還有一個最重要的重點，最近很多緬甸留學生，一年大概有將近三、四千人來臺灣，最近一直在討論他們在當地健檢的問題，緬甸當地只有一家健檢中心，但每次這些留學生要來臺灣留學或遊學，他們都要去跟旅行業者排一個將近一個禮拜的行程，舟車勞頓，所以現在有請新光醫院、請衛福部這邊協助，是不是可以多規劃幾個健檢中心？針對這個部分，本席從4月15號已經有去函緬甸辦事處，是不是可以積極協調，但已經兩個禮拜了，都還沒有消息。"],["花次長敬群：好，我們再跟衛福部、跟外交部聯繫確認，再跟委員回報。"],["張委員智倫：最後一點，抱歉，主席，再讓我問一個問題就可以了。最後一個問題，新住民發展基金每年編列預算大概是多少？10億嘛！"],["花次長敬群：基金規模有10億。"],["張委員智倫：基本上都是一些縣市政府或是一些團體來申請，我看到內政部移民署最近有申請一筆兩千八百多萬的一個影片，應該是新住民的……"],["花次長敬群：是「我們一家人」，就是每年都會有的。"],["張委員智倫：一些短片，我自己上網去看了這些影片，都是短影片的性質，我覺得它的觀看度好像有點不足，觀看率好像不是非常高。"],["花次長敬群：我每個禮拜都有……"],["張委員智倫：次長你有看過嗎？"],["花次長敬群：我有看過，我很喜歡看，我很喜歡看，因為我覺得很好看，電視上都會播，就是「我們一家人」這個節目，電視都會播，其實還滿好看的。"],["張委員智倫：是，次長，這部分還是通譯的一個問題，現在是不是只有一種語言，就是中文？"],["花次長敬群：什麼意思？7種語言啊！我們有7種語言的通譯。"],["張委員智倫：沒有，剛剛我所講的……"],["花次長敬群：你說「我們一家人」，那個有6種語言的影片。"],["張委員智倫：我看YouTube上面的影片只有可以選擇中文一種語言，所以我想這樣子新住民要觀賞的興趣就會缺乏，這部分我希望……"],["花次長敬群：瞭解。"],["張委員智倫：花了這麼多經費，還是要多種語言，讓新住民可以觀看，瞭解未來如何安居樂業。"],["花次長敬群：好，我們再來檢討。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝次長。"],["花次長敬群：謝謝委員提醒。"],["主席：非常謝謝張智倫委員的質詢。謝謝次長。","這也是我剛剛提到的通譯的問題，還有語言的問題，既然很好看，是不是都讓所有新住民能夠聽得懂、看得懂？好不好？謝謝。","繼續請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":448,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","丁學忠","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","羅美玲"],"page_start":345,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新\n住民權益保障法草案」案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(三)審查委\n員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」\n案、( 五) 審查委員蘇巧慧等 26 人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案；二、繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1133601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":0.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.36846875,"end":4.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.27471875,"end":7.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.72971875,"end":39.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.53534375,"end":42.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.45034375,"end":64.42596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.88159375000001,"end":82.16159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.46534375,"end":96.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.48846875000001,"end":101.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.90534375,"end":112.94159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.11034375000001,"end":115.64159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.21534375,"end":124.78784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.99034375000001,"end":158.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.21721875,"end":172.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.18534375000002,"end":192.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.55784375000002,"end":210.83346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.00221875000003,"end":215.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.10721875000002,"end":217.33034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.60471875000002,"end":217.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.33034375000003,"end":227.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.55659375000002,"end":230.02034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.02909375000002,"end":228.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.02034375000002,"end":249.40971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.88659375,"end":251.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.59096875,"end":277.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.77659375,"end":282.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.86034375,"end":284.77971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.68721875,"end":288.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.96909375,"end":292.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.36096875000004,"end":291.71534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.28909375,"end":306.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.01034375,"end":294.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.89159375,"end":298.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.39346875,"end":299.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.53159375,"end":312.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.09596875,"end":331.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.47284375000004,"end":343.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":343.33596875,"end":351.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.38534375,"end":354.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.77721875000003,"end":369.72846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.21784375000004,"end":397.96034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.96034375000005,"end":402.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.92159375,"end":412.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.77221875000004,"end":415.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.37534375,"end":417.41721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.13471875000005,"end":419.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.69971875000005,"end":432.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.11534375,"end":437.44784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.13596875,"end":440.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":440.26596875,"end":445.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.42971875,"end":451.15034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.01534375000006,"end":457.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.06159375000004,"end":453.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.24221875,"end":457.25909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":457.25909375000003,"end":463.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":457.73159375,"end":458.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.43534375,"end":471.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":472.04159375,"end":474.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.09596875000005,"end":479.48346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.39096875,"end":481.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.74471875,"end":486.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":487.49909375000004,"end":488.08971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":488.08971875000003,"end":493.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.25346875,"end":501.57284375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":493.28721875,"end":495.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":499.17659375000005,"end":499.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":501.08346875,"end":503.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":502.16346875000005,"end":505.04909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":503.95221875000004,"end":505.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":505.97721875,"end":506.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPE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審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。"},{"start":170.757,"end":192.291,"text":"那柬埔寨的部分更是缺乏,聽說柬埔寨所有的這個文件,台灣當局都不承認。那所以他們基本上會,我相信會部分的會阻礙他們想要來台灣來當新住民的一個問題。那這個部分是不是請次長稍微分享一下說,怎麼樣來協助他們有關於學歷取人的部分?"},{"start":192.611,"end":210.478,"text":"報告委員 這個事情在行政院的新住民事務協調會報其實都陸陸續續在處理那如果還有遺漏我們發現的後續還是會提報來處理現階段本質上都會認證就是說不是只有大學或是高中也不會基本上這個部分都會做處理"},{"start":211.238,"end":222.349,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":227.674,"end":228.595,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":253.792,"end":259.314,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":277.962,"end":279.622,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。"},{"start":306.627,"end":308.708,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具《新住民權益保障法草案》案。"},{"start":331.74,"end":332.261,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":343.593,"end":369.175,"text":"這個我們可能要跟勞動部或衛福部再去了解一下這個狀況不好意思,因為內政部就沒有補助到這一個部分好,那最後還有一個最重要的重點我們最近很多的緬甸的留學生一年大概將近三、四千人來台灣最近一直在討論他們在當地健檢的一個問題在緬甸當地只有一家的健檢中心那因為緬甸"},{"start":370.276,"end":387.261,"text":"有3000多他們每次這些留學生要來台灣留學或遊學的部分他們都要去跟旅行業者排一個將近一個禮拜的行程所以舟車勞頓所以我們現在有請新光院請衛福部這邊來協助是不是可以多規劃幾個健檢的中心"},{"start":388.522,"end":412.663,"text":"這部分本期從4月15日我相信已經有去函這個緬甸辦事處的部分是不是可以積極來協調今天兩個禮拜都還沒有消息我們再跟衛福部跟外交部來聯繫確認再跟委員回報最後一點抱歉主席再給我一分鐘再問一個問題就可以了最後一個問題我看在那個新住民發展基金的部分每年編列預算大概多少"},{"start":414.441,"end":415.642,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":433.118,"end":444.449,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案案件及新住民基本法草案"},{"start":456.821,"end":458.283,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":472.119,"end":479.589,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：立法院等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案：立法院等18人擬具"},{"start":487.617,"end":487.737,"text":"張智倫委員"}]}},{"id":"151865","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151865","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e671526c684e582626054712d423581dcc3cba397b1f8b3c9c798c8af07a2370ec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅廷瑋","委員發言時間":"11:36:01 - 11:46:46","影片長度":"00:10:45","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月29日及5月2日二天一次會））","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":645,"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:46:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T11:36:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":779,"blocks":[["羅委員廷瑋：（11時36分）好，謝謝主席。主席，麻煩請王政次，還有數發部的林副署長、刑事局的林明佐警政監。"],["主席：我們請文化，還有數位，還有警政署，謝謝。"],["羅委員廷瑋：今天非常感謝召委排這樣一個案子，我覺得召委你一定很接地氣，要不然就是你可能沒有買到張學友的演唱會門票，我也是受害者之一啦，但是我講真的，我們接到太多太多的陳情案件，所以對於召委這樣子排案，我感到非常非常地感謝。文化部在2023年三讀通過文化創意產業發展法，目的就是為了嚇止黃牛的不肖行為，但是實施之後到底有沒有改善黃牛的問題？次長，你說大概有兩千多件的檢舉案件，對吧？"],["王次長時思：檢舉案，是。"],["羅委員廷瑋：目前我想跟你請問一下，2023年三讀通過的文創法，到現在你覺得改善黃牛這件事情，1到100分，你覺得改善有打幾分？"],["王次長時思：我想在整體黃牛的量，尤其是規模化的經營的確有減少，但是仍然有黃牛的存在，這一點是不足的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以您覺得幾分？"],["王次長時思：我想分數應該是由委員來打。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，我個人覺得啦！看到這一個書面報告大概6頁左右，還含前言，對於黃牛嚇止相關的作為，只有6頁來寫這件事情，我覺得是不盡滿意啦，到底次長有沒有覺得說我們的黃牛氾濫到什麼程度？我想前面很多委員應該都有提供一些案例，我自己也要提供啦，但是今天我要另外跟大家討論的是，黃牛票最主要有三個面向，想跟現場三位來做討論。第一個是法規面，賣黃牛票究竟違反什麼法？是社維法、文創法還是刑法？當然，第一個案例大家都在說，竹科工程師自行撰寫電腦搶票的程式，搶票機器人上傳網路免費供人下載搶購演唱會等門票，5、6秒鐘可以買到1張，被依文創法來法辦。第二個案例，臺北大巨蛋的運動賽事門票黃牛票被以社維法來法辦，第三個案例，用虛擬身分來訂票被依偽造文書來法辦。次長，請問你怎麼看國內有這麼多關於賣黃牛票的法規？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，因為行為的本身有很多不同的面向，但它所找到的可以掌握的證據，跟可以裁罰的工具有不同，所以它在法律的適用上可能會有不同的差異，但關鍵仍然是將這一類行為繩之以法。"],["羅委員廷瑋：好，但是我想……我覺得你的回答都蠻厲害的，透過直播，我想民眾會看到你的說法，會覺得好像我們的政府真的有做事，但是我們現在看到的問題就是黃牛票還是層出不窮，黃牛票還是道高一尺、魔高一丈，我們看到藝文的表演票券，主要是用文創法，現在在進行的處罰，次長，文創法的第一條規定：「為促進文化創意產業之發展，建構具有豐富文化及創意內涵之社會環境，運用科技與創新研發，健全文化創意產業人才培育，並積極開發國內外市場，特制定本法。」看起來文創法當初在特設計上就是比較正面的、全面性的事務。在文創法第十條之一，我們上面販賣黃牛票的形式要件會不會怪怪的？當初怎麼會想說放在這裡？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，的確文創法是一個促進法，比較不是一個禁制法，但是當時主要是因為黃牛的問題，實在是讓整體的社會非常關注，所以文化部就負起這個責任，把黃牛……大概相關唯一能適用就是文創法，因為它畢竟跟文藝票券的市場有關，所以我們就把它放在文創法，我也有說明，如果我們在整體的黃牛票……因為黃牛票其實不是只有藝文演出的票券，如果能夠有一些整體的規範，我們其實是非常樂於配合的。"],["羅委員廷瑋：所以我說你的回應都很厲害，看起來文化部願意擔起責任去協助，但是我看了當初的文創法第十條之一立法說明提及社會秩序維護法罰則過輕，請問社維法罰則過輕為什麼要修文創法，而不是修社維法？當然，你會跟我講這不是文化部的管轄，你能夠負起責任，所以你去修了文創法，但是我就想，文化部報告第3頁講文化部收受之加價轉售檢舉案共2,105件，檢舉案中，資料完備可進行調查609件，已交由地方政府進行調查，其中300件已處理完竣，309件調查中，完成率約五成，次長，因為文化部收到檢舉最後還需要交給地方政府進行調查，來進行裁罰，但是我們如果看到地方政府消極應對怎麼辦？"],["王次長時思：我們的確需要努力跟地方政府來做協談跟配合，所以我們有說明會跟教育訓練，我理解委員覺得現在做得不夠，這也是我們做得不夠的地方。"],["羅委員廷瑋：剛剛包括葉元之委員在講的，有些是個資取得不易，還有地方政府的積極度有問題，我想都有啦！我不要只幫地方政府講話，好不好？我都納入，取得不易、還有消極面對都有可能，但我們看到目前法規的機制是否足夠因應層出不窮的黃牛票，在國內對黃牛票有不同法規來處置，這部分需不需要統一一個法律來做標準？我想剛剛你有回應啦！你再回應一次，好不好？你認定、你覺不覺得需要專法或專章？"],["王次長時思：其實站在文化部的立場，如果能有一個專法來集中解釋所有各種類型的黃牛票跟他們的行為，不管是行政裁罰或者是刑事裁罰，我想會是一個比較完善的規範。"],["羅委員廷瑋：我想你剛剛也有做表態，我們也希望未來有這個專法專章，在日本，我想很多人都在講日本、韓國都有給你做相關的一個，有抽選制的或者是他們有立專法專章，我們更希望跨部會來面對這個問題，我們一起來處理這件事情，包括我也有準備幾個PowerPoint，給大家看一下這幾個案例，你看螢幕最左邊，他是一個肺癌四期的張學友的歌迷，他說因為沒辦法跟你們搶票，他想應該也是搶不到，當然他這一篇文章在講的是他沒有病房，也搶不到票，希望大家能夠讓票，他想買一張張學友的演唱會門票竟然要透過拜託、施捨，這真的是讓我們感到非常地悲哀。","第二個，臺下最大的觀眾是黃牛，他透過AI製圖，還放了一隻牛在裡面，我想這個部分讓我們一再知道，到底現在黃牛的相關產業有多蓬勃發展，我們民眾對於現在的黃牛到底有沒有根絕，我想我自己評分一定是不及格，但是如果用民眾的角度來評分，我想民眾可能會給予零分，但是我現在不只是要苛責現在文化部的政次，我希望的是我們積極面對處理這個問題，而不只是一再地批評、攻擊，我們希望處理，你看到現在最右邊這個，有多少人在上面寫800加代購費，這有沒有符合黃牛票的定義？"],["王次長時思：我有說明代購費要透過個案來認定，如果是必要性花費，而且是由第三方來收受，譬如像郵資、交通，這個才能稱之為代購，而且他必須有事先的約定，但如果超出這個範圍，他仍然不是代購，仍然觸犯這條法律。"],["羅委員廷瑋：那你認為代購費有沒有一個標準？他如果郵資可能花幾百塊、幾千塊。"],["王次長時思：這在當時立法的時候，其實文化部是提出了百分之十的標準。"],["羅委員廷瑋：百分之十？"],["王次長時思：當時，但是被刪除了，因為社會不能接受，所以我們就刪除了，在公告的時候。"],["羅委員廷瑋：你寫百分之十啦！"],["王次長時思：當時。"],["羅委員廷瑋：沒關係，但我要跟你講，就是我們所看到的，有3,800的門票外面就是賣1萬啦！"],["王次長時思：那個就算是高價。"],["羅委員廷瑋：這有非常多的相關案例，我想到底要不要加強取締？可不可以狠狠地取締一年，我們再來看看重重地罰還會不會有黃牛？這是我們目前希望的，我想這個部分，我希望……今天把另外兩位都叫上來，請問數發部有沒有辦法從源頭去介入？以及我們的警察機關能不能從社維法，我自己提了一個版本，希望社維法能夠加重，但是警察機關這樣子的相關設定，能不能有更好的法律出來，這是我們未來希望能夠看到的，而不是都只是看到立法委員積極地希望能夠來修法，但是卻看不到我們的行政機關有實際的作為。第三個面向，文化部有沒有獎勵實名制？"],["王次長時思：有，有補助方案。"],["羅委員廷瑋：現在有獎勵嘛？對不對？"],["王次長時思：有。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是實名制對於防制黃牛到底有沒有效？我們要不要來探討這個問題？我們已經有這樣子的獎勵機制，但是完全沒有效果的話，那這個獎勵到底有沒有效？"],["王次長時思：我想實名制能夠有效來禁止黃牛這件事情應該可以從市場看得出來，像現在看到張學友演唱會就沒有採用實名制，所以黃牛其實才會這麼嚴重，如果有採用實名制的，其實黃牛就不會這麼猖獗。"],["羅委員廷瑋：最後我想要請求，本席覺得實名制有處理一部分的問題，但是大部分的問題也不一定能夠靠實名制處理，而且成本會大增，主辦單位會大增相關的人事成本之外，觀眾的成本也會增加，觀眾是不是會覺得消費體驗變爛，這個部分是不是未來有機會，如果你要推實名制，我們是願意樂觀其成，但是能不能跟產業有更多的配套把它做好，能不能再去邀集產業來做相關的溝通、處理，我們來朝向實名制的部分，這個部分我覺得可以。"],["王次長時思：可以，可以來做。"],["羅委員廷瑋：但是希望你能夠辦實際的相關產業說明。"],["王次長時思：我們其實都有在跟各大平台的主辦單位談。"],["羅委員廷瑋：繼續努力，好不好？"],["王次長時思：可以。"],["羅委員廷瑋：看到效果才是重點。"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝兩位，謝謝羅委員。接下來我們來處理臨時提案。請宣讀。","有鑑於本次113全中運辦理過程中，於游泳項目傳出選手因熱身時跳水致禁賽一年爭議，雖已依相關技術手冊與競賽規程現場取消參賽資格，然規程修正與回應上，體育署仍多以「交由高中體總處理」「交由游泳協會討論」未見體育署作為主辦單位之高度與自覺。同時，體育署在相關新聞稿發布外，除未與當事人有過聯繫，另有關「場裁判宣告禁賽一年作法是否有違比例原則」、「大會發布新聞稿與事實顯有出入」等問題均未得到說明與處理。","爰此，請體育署於一個月內進行相關事件獨立調查，針對包含規程修正、申訴仲裁制度以及禮賓業務精進等業務向當事人及立法院教育與文化委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：陳培瑜　　郭昱晴　　吳沛憶　　"],["主席：請問陳委員有沒有意見？"],["陳委員培瑜：先讓體育署回應一下好了，我們有一些相關的想法需要討論，先請體育署回應，謝謝。"],["主席：來，鄭署長。"],["鄭署長世忠：主席、委員。體育署這邊建議是在第五條的最後面除未與當事人有過足夠聯繫」，這邊說明一下，因為我們當時現場其實是有代表體育署的競賽委員在現場，也把當事人教練找過來詳細地跟他說明，也有指導他可以怎麼做，在後續去爭取選手的權益，不代表體育署完全沒有作為。","也建議在第六行的地方「另有關現場裁判」加一個「現」字，在第七行的部分「等問題均未得到足夠說明與處理」，希望能夠把「足夠」這兩個字加進去。第二段的部分，在第一行是針對規程與技術手冊部分的修正，目前為止，其實真正的問題出現在技術手冊，但不是在規程，不過這一點我們還是不會做進一步的爭執，還是可以接受。第二行「申訴、審判、仲裁制度」希望能夠加上「審判」，那「仲裁」這兩個字眼，說實在「仲裁」的字眼不適用在這樣子的一個情況，他是arbitration，在這樣子的樣態是不適用的，但是這邊也尊重委員。我們是建議刪除「仲裁」兩個字會比較精準。後面這一段「等業務向當事人及立法院教育文化委員會提出書面報告」是不是能夠把「當事人及」這四個字予以刪除？以上報告。"],["主席：陳委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝署長、謝謝主席。大部分署長說的我們都可以接受改變，只有第一個，就是在第五行，沒有跟當事人有過足……我寫的是有過聯繫，署長是希望改成足夠聯繫嘛？那我這邊想要用一個情況來跟署長討論，假設我們有學生在學校受到不當的對待，學校一旦要開啟相關調查或是說明，一定會請當事人到場說明嘛！可是我發現好像在體育界裡面，比較慣常的是跟選手的教練做說明，可是這裡面當這個機制一再一再複製在很多體育事件的現場，其實它就忽略了青少年表意權這件事情。如果把表意權的概念拉進來看，教練雖然收到了剛剛署長所說的，不管是現場其他人的說明，可是當事人始終沒有辦法好好說明他的感受，或者是當他覺得教練告訴他的事情，他還有自己的想法想要回饋出來的時候，可是卻沒有體育署這邊的大人要聽。所以其他的修改我都可以接受，可是在跟當事人聯繫這件事情上，我還是要提出這麼堅定的看法，是因為我覺得在很多體育事件當中，確確實實都忽略了所謂的兒少表意權，而兒少表意權在目前行政院所有所屬的中央機構裡面，是非常非常重要的權利表彰，所以這個部分我比較堅持，謝謝。"],["主席：署長？"],["鄭署長世忠：沒有意見。"],["主席：所以當事人不用，你們這邊是OK的？"],["鄭署長世忠：一般我們過去是希望能夠在未成年的部分是先找教練過來，但是剛剛委員提到了兒少表意權，這一部分我們沒有意見，所以這部分我們尊重委員。"],["主席：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝署長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，那你就跟委員溝通好，這個臨時提案修正文字之後就通過。","我們繼續開會，接下來請黃珊珊委員，質詢時間4分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","范雲","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","黃珊珊","黃捷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","邱志偉","張啓楷","羅智強","林倩綺","林楚茵","劉建國"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列\n席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.5915937500000004,"end":12.585968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.98721875,"end":10.442843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.906593750000003,"end":13.969718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.40846875,"end":17.294093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.762218750000002,"end":55.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.43596875,"end":55.29659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.87034375,"end":56.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.29221875,"end":57.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.05159375,"end":70.36596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.77096875000001,"end":78.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.66846875,"end":80.03534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.35596875,"end":82.26284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.54971875000001,"end":161.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.36409375000002,"end":179.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.08721875,"end":234.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.66096875000002,"end":236.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.02784375000002,"end":243.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.14471875,"end":268.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.59659375,"end":324.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":324.77346875,"end":334.42596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.42596875000004,"end":369.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":339.45471875000004,"end":339.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":369.77909375,"end":383.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":383.85284375000003,"end":476.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":476.78346875000005,"end":478.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":479.17971875,"end":495.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":495.37971875000005,"end":501.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":500.69534375,"end":510.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":504.84659375,"end":506.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":507.14159375,"end":507.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":510.19596875,"end":519.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":512.03534375,"end":512.3390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":519.6797187500001,"end":568.0603437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":519.73034375,"end":521.9578437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":568.54971875,"end":569.7309687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":569.7309687500001,"end":583.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":583.28159375,"end":597.0009687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":594.0647187500001,"end":594.2334687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":596.69721875,"end":639.0872187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":634.7334687499999,"end":636.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":638.42909375,"end":641.2978437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":640.2178437499999,"end":643.2553437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":643.4072187500001,"end":644.06534375}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.612,"end":16.622,"text":"好,謝謝主席,主席麻煩請這個王政次還有速發部的林副署長,行事局的林明佐警政監好,我們請文化還有數位還有警政署,謝謝"},{"start":18.82,"end":44.626,"text":"今天非常感謝昭緯排這樣子的一個案子我覺得昭緯你一定很接地氣要不然就是你可能沒有買到張學友的演唱會門票我也是受害者之一但是我講真的我們接到太多太多的陳情案件所以對於昭緯這樣子排案我感到非常非常的感謝那文化部在2023年三讀通過《文化創意產業發展法》"},{"start":45.506,"end":69.578,"text":"目的就是為了嚇死黃牛的不肖行為但是實施之後到底有沒有改善黃牛的問題次長你說大概有兩千多件的一個檢舉案件對吧檢舉案是那目前我想跟您請問一下就是2023年三讀通過的這個文創法到現在你覺得改善黃牛這件事情1到100分你覺得改善有打幾分"},{"start":70.816,"end":81.542,"text":"我想在整體的黃牛的量尤其是規模化的進行的是的確有減少但是仍然有黃牛的存在這一點是不足的所以您覺得幾分我想分數應該是委員來打"},{"start":83.368,"end":110.02,"text":"我個人覺得看到這一個書面報告大概六頁啦六頁左右還含前言對於黃牛法對於黃牛的這個賀旨相關的一個作為只有六頁來寫這件事情我覺得是不盡滿意那到底次長有沒有覺得說我們的黃牛氾濫到了什麼程度待會我想很多前面的委員應該都有提供一些案例但是我自己也要提供"},{"start":110.72,"end":126.306,"text":"但是我想今天我要另外跟大家討論的是黃牛法黃牛票最主要有三個面向跟三位現場的三位來做討論第一個法規面賣黃牛票究竟違反什麼法是色違法、文創法還是刑法"},{"start":126.986,"end":149.387,"text":"我們當然第一個案例大家都在說竹科工程師自行撰寫這個電腦搶票的程式搶票機器人上傳網路免費工人下載搶購演唱會等門票五六秒鐘可以買到一張被依文創法來法辦第二個案例臺北大巨蛋的運動賽事門票黃牛票被依社委法來法辦"},{"start":151.129,"end":179.526,"text":"第3個案例用虛擬身份來定票被依偽造為輸來法辦次長請問你怎麼看國內有這麼多關於賣黃牛票的法規跟委員說明那因為行為的本身有很多不同的面向但他所找到的可以掌握的證據跟可以裁罰的工具有不同所以他在法律的適用上可能會有不同的差異但關鍵仍然是將這一類的行為繩之以法"},{"start":180.146,"end":182.748,"text":"黃牛票還是層出不窮黃牛票還是道高一尺魔高一丈我們看到藝文的這個表演啊票卷主要是用文創法"},{"start":201.363,"end":225.719,"text":"那現在在進行的一個處罰施展文創法的第一條規定為促進文化創意產業之發展建構具有豐富的文化及創意內涵的社會環境運用科技及創研發展健全文化創意產業人才的培育並積極開發國內外市場特制定本法看起來文創法當初在特設計上就是比較正面的"},{"start":227.561,"end":243.037,"text":"在文創法第十之一條我們上面販賣黃牛票的形式要件會不會怪怪的當初怎麼會想說放在這裡跟委員說明的確文創法是一個促進法比較不是一個禁制法但是當時主要是因為黃牛的問題"},{"start":244.398,"end":268.412,"text":"實在是讓整體的社會非常關注所以文化部就負起這個責任把黃牛那大概相關唯一能適用的就是文創法因為它畢竟跟演藝票券的文藝票券的市場有關所以我們就把它放在文創法那我也有說明就是說如果我們在整體的黃牛票因為黃牛票其實不只有藝人藝文演出的票券如果能夠有一些整體的規範我們其實是非常樂於配合的"},{"start":268.692,"end":287.825,"text":"所以我說你的回應都很厲害看起來就是文化部願意擔起責任去協助但是我看了當初的文創法第十之一條立法說明提及社會秩序違附法法則過輕請問社違法法則過輕為什麼要修文創法而不是修社違法"},{"start":288.565,"end":304.915,"text":"當然你會跟我講嘛就是文化部這不是你的管轄啊你能夠負起的責任所以你去修了這個文創法但是我就想啊文化部報告第三頁講文化部收售之加價轉售檢舉案共2105件檢舉案中資料完備可進行調查609件已交由地方政府進行調查其中300件已處理完均309件調查中完成率約五成次長"},{"start":314.901,"end":339.643,"text":"因為文化部收到檢舉後最後還需要交給地方政府進行調查來進行裁罰但是我們看到如果地方政府消極應對怎麼辦我們的確需要努力跟地方政府來做協談跟配合所以我們有說明會跟教育訓練那但是我理解委員覺得現在做得不夠那也是我們做得不夠的地方剛剛包括葉元之委員在講的有些是各自取得不義然後還有"},{"start":341.323,"end":366.568,"text":"地方政府的積極度有問題我想都有啦我不要只幫地方政府講話好不好我都納入取得不易還有消極面對都有可能但現在就是我們看到目前法規的機制是否能夠足夠因應層出不窮的黃牛票在國內對黃牛票的有不同法規來處置這部分需不需要統一一個法律來做一個標準我想剛剛你有回應再回應一次好不好你認定"},{"start":367.648,"end":383.077,"text":"你覺不覺得需要專法或專章?其實我會站在文化部的立場如果能有一個專法來集中解釋所有各種類型的黃牛票跟他們的行為不管是行政裁罰或者是刑事裁罰我想會是一個比較完善的規範"},{"start":383.888,"end":405.848,"text":"我想你剛剛也有做表態那我們也希望未來有這個專法專章在日本我想很多人都在講日本韓國都有給你做相關的一個有抽選制的阿或者是他們有立專法專章我們更希望跨部會來面對這個問題我們一起來把這個事情來處理我想包括我也有準備幾個拋破引給大家看一下這幾個案例"},{"start":406.969,"end":426.558,"text":"你看我的螢幕最左邊我是一個肺癌士氣張學友的歌迷因為沒辦法跟你們搶票我想應該也是搶不到當然他這篇文章在講的是他沒有病房也搶不到票希望大家能夠讓票我想買一張張學友的演唱會門票竟然要透過拜託施捨"},{"start":428.679,"end":457.038,"text":"這真的是讓我們感到非常的悲哀第二個台下最大的觀眾是黃牛他透過AI制圖還放了一隻牛在裡面我想這個部分讓我們一再顯示到我們到底現在的黃牛的這個相關產業有多蓬勃發展我們到底現在民眾對於現在的黃牛有沒有根絕我想我自己評分我一定是不及格但是如果用民眾的角度來評分我想民眾可能會給予0分"},{"start":458.899,"end":475.01,"text":"但是我現在不只是要苛責我們現在的政治文化部我希望的是我們積極面對處理這個問題而不是一再的只是批評攻擊我們希望處理你看到現在最右邊這個有多少人在上面寫我們800家代購費"},{"start":477.02,"end":495.016,"text":"這有沒有符合黃牛票的定義?我有說明代購費要透過個案來認定．如果它是必要性花費．而且是由第三方來收受．譬如像遊資、交通．這個才能稱之為代購．而且它必須有事先的約定．但如果超出這個範圍．它仍然不是代購．仍然觸犯這條法律"},{"start":495.416,"end":518.199,"text":"那你認為代購費有沒有一個標準他如果油資可能花幾百塊幾千塊這在當時立法的時候其實文化部是提出了10%的標準10%當時但是被刪除了因為社會不能接受所以我們就刪除了你寫10%沒關係但我要跟你講就是我們所看到的有的3800的門票外面就是賣一萬了"},{"start":520.856,"end":535.591,"text":"這是非常多的這樣子的相關案例我想到底要不要加強取締有沒有可不可以能夠狠狠的取締一年我們再來看看重重的罰看看還會不會有黃牛這是我們現在目前希望的我想這個部分我希望"},{"start":536.272,"end":550.73,"text":"今天會把另外兩位都叫上來我覺得訴發部有沒有辦法從源頭去介入那以及我們的警察機關能不能從社委法我自己提了一個版本希望社委法能夠加重但是警察機關這樣子的一個相關設定"},{"start":552.051,"end":552.792,"text":"第3個面向,文化部有沒有獎勵實名制?"},{"start":568.601,"end":596.001,"text":"有補助方案現在有獎勵嘛對不對但是實名制對於黃牛防治到底有沒有效我們要不要來探討這個問題我們已經有這樣子的一個獎勵機制但是我們看到完全沒有效果的話那這個獎勵到底有沒有效我想實名制是能夠有效來禁止黃牛這件事情應該可以從市場看得出來像現在看到張學遠唱會他就沒有採用實名制所以黃牛其實才會這麼嚴重如果有採用實名制的其實黃牛就不會這麼"},{"start":596.921,"end":611.483,"text":"最後我想要請求本席覺得實名制我覺得有處理一部分的問題但是有大部分的問題也不一定實名制能夠處理而且成本會大增主辦單位會大增這個相關的成本人事之外"},{"start":612.283,"end":637.17,"text":"觀眾的成本也會增加觀眾是不是會覺得這個消費體驗會變爛這個部分是不是未來有機會如果你要推實名制我們是願意樂觀其成但是能不能跟產業有更多的配套把它做好能不能再去邀集產業來做相關的溝通來做處理我們來做這個實名制的部分來朝向這個部分我覺得可以但是希望你能夠辦實際的相關的產業說明繼續努力"},{"start":641.291,"end":643.065,"text":"好不好 看到效果才是重點謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"151864","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151864","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6213684e6e83e17c8055d9f022d149edd3cba397b1f8b3c9c8a3d5adc657703f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"11:36:43 - 11:42:41","影片長度":"00:05:58","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":358,"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:42:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T11:36:43+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1048,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（11時36分）主席，我想請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，我想今天非常多委員都已經提醒我們要加重刑罰等等，近期因為藝人付費加入及購買含有兒少性剝削影像網站──創意私房，衛福部在4月10日請台灣網路資訊中心（TWNIC）停止解析，所以我們現在看到的畫面很清楚的載明此網域因為違反兒童及少年性剝削防制條例而遭到停止解析，這個有看到嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["張委員嘉郡：但本席認為這個畫面必須要更有嚇阻力，讓有意瀏覽的民眾充分得知自己可能面臨什麼後果。部長，你可以看，像衛福部其實相當有經驗啊！為了防制菸害所推廣的警語跟警圖，你看這個警語跟警圖其實是非常嚴重的，嚇阻很多想要抽菸的人，讓他們知道這可能是他會面對的後果，所以希望網域已停止解析的部分是不是能夠明列拍攝、購買、持有可能之最高刑責，讓想要去這個網站的人知道他去這樣的網站可能會面臨什麼樣的刑責，因為他在這個網站找不到，他可能在另外的網站還會繼續去尋找，他不知道他要面臨的是什麼樣子的後果，部長，您同意嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分我非常同意委員的看法，但是實際上要怎麼樣操作，可能還要跟幾個相關的部會來討論。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這個部分可能警政署也要來支持，然後來協助。"],["薛部長瑞元：第二個就是到底他的最高刑責是多少，可能要等到我們這次修法之後再來決定。"],["張委員嘉郡：當然，這個部分我想所有的委員可以說是不分藍綠一起共同支持一定要重罰才能夠嚇阻，形成一個嚇阻效用。","接下來也想要請問部長，創意私房似乎又回來了，這是在4月10日封網之後沒有幾天，網友在4月24號就發文說這個網站又回來了，我們都知道網站根本沒有消失，我們透過封鎖的方式讓國人無法使用這個網站，但只要它換一個網域，就形同改名換姓一樣又復活了，對此，衛福部有沒有什麼具體想法可以去杜絕這件事情？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們禮拜五又再封了。"],["張委員嘉郡：又把它封了？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們星期五的時候又封了。"],["張委員嘉郡：對，其實對於這個問題，舉例來說，美國電影協會Motion Picture Association（MPA）它們就是非常積極，在各國遊說行政機關對於盜版網站進行封網，也從不放棄這個作法，雖然明知封網只是治標，但該做的還是要去做，因為行政機關的封網其實是一個很簡單的設定，立即就可以生效，但是這些不法業者要更改網域，相較之下是比較麻煩的，他改10次，我們就封10次，那行政機關，我想聽到部長說：「你改100次，我就封100次。」有這樣子的決心嗎？部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，當然就是……但重點是我們要能夠主動去巡。"],["張委員嘉郡：是，這一點就是我想要提醒部長的，衛福部要怎麼樣第一時間知道呢？就是要怎麼樣第一時間知道這個網站又改名換姓了呢？部長，現在有沒有主動巡網的機制？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前沒有。"],["張委員嘉郡：目前沒有，對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["張委員嘉郡：所以我針對部長說想要委外主動巡網，在卸任前完成招標書，這一點我肯定部長是一個有承擔的人。但我想請問部長，網路的複雜及多樣性其實最需要的是借助眾多網友的力量，有沒有考慮開放檢舉，像環保違規、交通違規一樣，是不是可以由民眾檢舉，衛福部來查檢，或者是警政署來查檢？這樣子是不是比較快速？你又不用那麼多人力，然後又等於是人人都可以幫忙監督，如果這樣子的話，部長會考慮嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前也有這個機制，我們影像處理中心就可以接受這種檢舉。"],["張委員嘉郡：你們可能要更多的廣宣才能讓大家知道他們是有權力可以檢舉的，否則其實很多民眾可能不曉得他有檢舉的管道或者是檢舉的權益，我想很多人都會願意去做這件事情，如果可以立刻做出裁處的話，這樣可能會比花錢委外的成效高很多，這一點也建議部長來參考。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，我們會廣為宣傳，我們再加強宣導。"],["張委員嘉郡：最後，如果有建置主動巡網機制之相關進程，請書面回復本席辦公室。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["張委員嘉郡：謝謝部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張嘉郡委員。","接下來我們請楊瓊瓔委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1","speakers":["王育敏","黃捷","蘇清泉","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","陳冠廷","李坤城","許宇甄","沈伯洋","王世堅","陳菁徽","王美惠","王鴻薇","張雅琳","何欣純","范雲","林思銘","林月琴","陳昭姿","廖偉翔","劉建國","黃國昌","林淑芬","陳俊宇","王正旭","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳亭妃","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","李彥秀","蔡易餘","莊瑞雄","楊曜","盧縣一","涂權吉","羅智強","黃仁","沈發惠","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一\n條條文修正草案」案；二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十\n九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案；三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例\n第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案；六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童\n及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之\n一條文草案」案；十一、委員李坤城等 22 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案；十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案；十\n四、委員廖偉翔等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草\n案」案；十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草\n案」案；十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十\n七、委員黃建賓等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草\n案」案；十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修\n正草案」案；十九、委員王世堅等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十、委員陳菁徽等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十\n一、委員王美惠等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二十\n二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員王鴻薇\n等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬\n具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二\n十六、委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委\n員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案；\n二十八、委員劉建國等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n委員柯志恩等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十、委員陳素月\n等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十一、委員范雲等17人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十二、委員林俊憲等21人擬具「兒童及\n少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十三、委員林思銘等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝\n削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十四、委員張雅琳等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條\n例部分條文修正草案」案；三十五、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條\n文修正草案」案；三十六、委員林月琴等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.98346875,"end":8.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.341593750000001,"end":11.219093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.860343750000002,"end":48.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.681593750000005,"end":50.166593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.50409375,"end":60.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.439093750000005,"end":114.39284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.81471875000001,"end":124.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.96096875,"end":127.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.78346875000001,"end":134.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.35596875000002,"end":148.71659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.58284375,"end":140.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.86846875,"end":155.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.80409375000002,"end":161.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.86221875,"end":162.43596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.85784375,"end":189.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.14909375000002,"end":191.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.60846875000001,"end":193.80659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.62096875,"end":237.61409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.61409375000002,"end":239.52096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.74034375000002,"end":242.38971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.69346875000002,"end":246.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.96346875,"end":243.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.89096875,"end":248.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.71784375000001,"end":260.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.95221875000004,"end":261.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.69471875,"end":303.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.32096875,"end":305.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":305.53596875,"end":312.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.42096875000004,"end":314.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.96909375,"end":342.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.54284375000003,"end":347.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.16659375,"end":356.39721875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":7.211,"end":26.893,"text":"主席,我想請部長。好,請薛部長。部長,我想今天非常多的委員都已經在提醒說我們要加重刑罰等等。那近期因為這個藝人付費加入及購買含有兒少性剝削影像網站創意私房。"},{"start":27.634,"end":48.01,"text":"那衛福部在4月10日請這個臺灣網路資訊中心停止解析所以我們現在看到的畫面很清楚的宰明這個網域因為違反兒童及少年性剝削防制法而遭到停止解析這個有看到嗎?"},{"start":50.572,"end":72.107,"text":"那幹本席認為這個畫面必須更有嚇阻力,讓有意去遊覽的這個民眾充分得知自己可能面臨什麼後果。這個部長你可以看,就是像我們這個衛福部其實相當有經驗,我們為了防制淹害所推廣的警語跟警圖,你有看這個警語跟警圖,"},{"start":72.847,"end":98.945,"text":"其實是非常嚴重的嚇阻很多想要抽菸的人知道說這可能是他會面對的一個後果那所以呢希望說這個是不是這個網域已停止解析喔這個部分是不是能夠明列拍攝購買持有可能之最高刑刑責讓這個想要去這個網站的人知道說欸"},{"start":100.226,"end":105.951,"text":"議長,您同意嗎?這個部分我非常同意委員的這個看法,但是實際上要怎麼樣操作的話,那可能要跟幾個相關的部會來...是,這個部分可能要警政署也來支持,然後來協助。第二個就是"},{"start":129.25,"end":148.162,"text":"到底他的最高刑責是多少,可能要等到我們這次修法之後再做決定。當然當然,這個部分我想大家所有的委員,大家都是可以說是不分藍綠,一起共同支持說一定要能夠重罰,才能夠嚇阻,形成一個嚇阻效用。"},{"start":149.042,"end":160.507,"text":"那接下來呢我也想要請問部長這個創意私房似乎又回來了這個是在封網之後4月10日封網之後沒有幾天喔"},{"start":161.914,"end":163.155,"text":"我們禮拜五又再封了"},{"start":192.708,"end":203.178,"text":"我們星期五的時候又把它封了對這個部分其實對於這個問題我覺得就舉例來說這個美國電影協會Motion Picture Association MPA他們就是非常積極的在各國遊說行政機關對於盜版網站進行封網那也從不放棄這個做法"},{"start":213.147,"end":241.777,"text":"雖然明知封網只是治標但該做的還是要去做那因為行政機關的封網其實是一個很簡單的設定是立即就可以生效但是這些不法業者要更改網域相較之下是比較麻煩的他改十次我們就封十次那行政機關我想聽到的部長是說你改一百次我就封一百次有這樣子的決心嗎部長當然就是但是重點是我們要能夠主動去尋"},{"start":242.797,"end":263.448,"text":"是,這一點就是我想要提醒部長的,就是說衛福部要怎麼樣第一時間知道呢?就是要怎麼樣第一時間知道說,欸這個網站又改名換姓了呢?部長現在有沒有主動尋網的機制?目前沒有。目前沒有,對不對?所以呢,"},{"start":264.569,"end":266.952,"text":"我針對部長說想要委外主動尋網在卸任前完成招標書這一點我是肯定部長是一個有承擔的人但我想請問部長網路的這個複雜跟多樣性"},{"start":279.867,"end":303.539,"text":"其實最需要的是藉助眾多網友的力量有沒有考慮開放像檢舉像環保違規啊、交通違規一樣啊是不是可以由民眾檢舉衛福部來查檢或者是警政署來查檢這樣子是比較快速你又不用那麼多人力然後又等於是人人都可以幫忙監督如果這樣子的話部長會考慮嗎?"},{"start":305.901,"end":311.215,"text":"目前也有這個機制,我們影像處理中心就可以接受這種檢舉。"},{"start":312.648,"end":341.11,"text":"是 那就是說我們可能要更多的廣宣才讓大家知道說他們是有權利可以檢舉的否則其實很多民眾他可能不曉得他有這個檢舉的管道或者是檢舉的權益他有這個我想很多人都會願意去做這件事情那如果這個可以立刻做出採取的話這樣可能會比花錢委外的成效都高很多那這一點也建議部長來參考"},{"start":342.611,"end":355.5,"text":"好,這我們會廣為宣傳,我們再加強宣導。那最後呢,如果有建制主動尋往機制之相關進程,請書面回覆本席辦公室。好,謝謝部長。"}]}},{"id":"151863","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151863","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6742aee212b2d4a03656dd8af69baafbe3cba397b1f8b3c9ce744949ebbc1455f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"11:29:19 - 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有請主委"},{"start":12.284,"end":40.461,"text":"主委早520新內閣即將上任所以今天可能是你擔任主委最後一次來立法院備詢的機會所以其實本席擔任立委以來有注意到觀察到大鵬主委其實發現你這幾年任期都真的十分的努力而且為全體國軍退除役官兵們及弱勢年老的農民們都是爭取最大的權益這點其實大家都有看到"},{"start":41.161,"end":41.181,"text":"是,謝謝"},{"start":68.581,"end":92.029,"text":"主委你這輩子有如此豐富的國防還有國安的經驗那請問你現在的任務是否還想要繼續擔任政府的職務繼續為中華民國的國家安全貢獻呢不會我會關心國家的安全但是我想到宮廟去做一個主委所以是那有沒有計畫繼續貢獻你的專業為國家擔任志工"},{"start":94.77,"end":122.956,"text":"我們有很多的這個優秀的人才我想我們這個年紀應該是進退讓給年輕人好謝謝主委日前行政院也公佈內閣已經確確會將由前國防部長嚴德發再次回到輔導會接任主委的職務那請問主委你對嚴前部長再次回任有什麼看法還是對他有沒有什麼特別的期許呢"},{"start":124.329,"end":148.246,"text":"他接任我的部長各方反應都是非常良好我想他接任退輔會以後也會延續我們一貫的傳統政策也會創新我對他來接任深具信心謝謝主委"},{"start":149.813,"end":154.378,"text":"那我再問一個問題就是針對榮民服務照顧經濟的作為：退輔會在本次的報告第8頁中有指出將加強訪視頻率主動發掘遭逢意外傷害罹患重病致生活陷入困境的榮民還有榮眷"},{"start":169.894,"end":178.344,"text":"８發語極難的救助已經紓困．並以此〈零四〉〈零三〉花蓮地震受災榮民榮眷救助已經175人次新台幣153萬3000元但本席有發現還有另外一個問題"},{"start":185.011,"end":200.536,"text":"請教與拜託主委在卸任前來共同來協助看看那就是有關協助聽障還有語障者就醫的溝通障礙問題因為目前我們花東地區的公立醫院都沒有設立聽語專業人員的職缺因為沒有聽語專業人"},{"start":204.997,"end":205.017,"text":"臺北榮總"},{"start":226.246,"end":233.109,"text":"所以本席希望藉此機會想建議主委是否願意協助事辦聽語專業人員職缺的徵才也可以試辦看看招募臨時的事辦也可以藉此方式來改善聽障還有語障者的溝通障礙畢竟我們有很多榮民榮眷這個年紀都不小而且聽力也不是很好然後就醫的時候其實有很多許多的聽語專業人員其實都可以協助這方面的需求"},{"start":256.278,"end":280.346,"text":"還有服務他們那不曉得退輔會的想法是怎樣報告委員那個語言治療師的確是很重要不過我們努力在育理分醫院一直在招募怎麼招都沒有人來包括台北榮總我們的編制有6位語言治療師也只來了4位所以我們都努力在爭財中因為這是"},{"start":282.307,"end":292.812,"text":"人才難求我們真的很努力想要幫忙那目前還沒有的時候我們就把他轉到花蓮慈濟那得幫助他們得到好的照顧但是會繼續想辦法"},{"start":294.841,"end":298.983,"text":"謝謝因為畢竟花蓮慈濟和玉里其實還是有一點遠我是希望說因為我們還是要服務藍花蓮地區這些農民這些農圈還有這些的醫療讓我們提升我們的醫療的品質那是不是可以看看是什麼方面為什麼招不到人是薪水太少還是沒有夠優惑還是沒有什麼比較吸引他們的人來到我們"},{"start":321.573,"end":321.773,"text":"發言委員：林憶君"},{"start":334.203,"end":351.745,"text":"在提到未來退輔會主委嚴德發前部長根據媒體的報導他其實也深附深化輔導會與美國退役軍人團體的惡鬼外交所以的這個任務為了深化與國際退伍軍人交流合作的進度"},{"start":352.526,"end":358.81,"text":"退輔會在會期開始的時候就有說明指出了為了強化與各國退伍軍人組織的交流然後民國2022年1月開始就開始有外派人赴美國然後派駐兩位人員在美國紐約的駐美代表處"},{"start":369.677,"end":369.697,"text":"是這樣嗎?"},{"start":395.964,"end":396.164,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":410.06,"end":413.402,"text":"所以看來無論是從臺美關係還是臺灣跟民主陣營國家長期的發展趨勢來看未來擔負的惡鬼外交的角色其實是越來越重要"},{"start":436.656,"end":437.096,"text":"報告委員我們這個駐美的兩位人員"},{"start":458.26,"end":479.076,"text":"我爭取了兩年立法院才同意但是我們發現了在立院的資源之下效果非常的良好因為我們在英國法國都有派駐這個武官這個武官就是名義上的所以我想我們有些業務可能會托他們來辦理"},{"start":480.714,"end":493.887,"text":"假如我們計劃好了我們可能在歐洲其他的國家也可以去那麼最重要的是不但是要照顧農民還要把我們地區我們那些"},{"start":495.017,"end":511.136,"text":"在外面移民到美國區的這些國民也聯合在一起所以我們跟僑務委員會也有很密切的合作希望我們一次開會雙方都到團結力量協同一致"},{"start":513.038,"end":514.819,"text":"現在負責海外活動與交流的相關業務其實只有服務照顧處的海外科在辦理,是不是這樣?"},{"start":542.87,"end":558.933,"text":"是的,因為他們長年跟他們接觸而且接待已經有兩次我們總統蔡總統的這個講話都能夠在他們的大會中間播放我個人的也播放過一次這些都是一些成果"},{"start":560.549,"end":564.054,"text":"所以照這樣來講如果說我們剛才這樣來研議的情況一下就是說如果他再繼續推廣的話可能海外科同仁的業務是不是會日益的加重這樣是不是會不會會造成同仁們業務上面爆竿的情況呢"},{"start":577.291,"end":593.722,"text":"這個我們會檢討假如有必要增加人手我個人是贊成的因為我在美國當過武官我底下有兩個副武官所以每個人分擔的業務不一樣但是都非常的沉重所以我們會考量"},{"start":594.81,"end":594.99,"text":"主委委員"}]}},{"id":"151862","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151862","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6fe8c78a49304fc4f055d9f022d149edd3cba397b1f8b3c9c621747a0e7dfbc9b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"11:29:32 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11:36:40","影片長度":"00:07:08","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":428,"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:36:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T11:29:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1028,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（11時29分）謝謝主席，請警政署還有法務部、司法院的相關人員。"],["主席：以上三個單位的代表請上臺。"],["黃委員秀芳：首先先請教警政署，是副組長嗎？"],["斯副組長儀仙：是。"],["黃委員秀芳：副組長，我想請教，根據警方的統計，近五年兒少性影像遭偷拍流傳，甚至販售獲利的案件有上千件，過去三年檢方對類似這樣的案件有超過兩成以上是緩起訴或者是不起訴，法院在審理這類的案件當中有三成以上用減刑，所以許多被害人因為家人害怕傷害本身的名譽，或者就算家人知道，有的也不敢報案。我想請教警政署，因為我們現在可能人手一機、手機非常方便，所以有一些性影像的流傳案件，我們看到是在上升當中，每一年好像都有在上升，這個販售獲利的案件是不是也有上升的趨向？我想請教警政署掌握的情況、數據到底是怎麼樣，你們看到近幾年來的性影像偷拍或者是報案的數據是不是有上升？如果是上升的話，應該還有很多黑數，因為有的人不敢報案，是不是請警政署針對這部分先回應一下？"],["斯副組長儀仙：謝謝委員。委員關心的事情，依照我們的統計跟瞭解，比如112年我們總共有通報跟查獲1,620件兒少性剝削案件，當中牽涉到拍攝、製造兒少性影像有859件，占53%；散布、播送還有販售的部分是367件，占所有案件的22.65%。其實也跟委員報告，依照我們的瞭解，如果這些被害人的性影像遭受到散播的可能，對被害人來說，他最在乎的是即時下架，所以他第一時間有可能會先聯絡衛福部的性影像中心通報下架事宜，如果有些被害人到警政機關來報案的話，比較少會走入司法流程，大概是兩成到三成左右。再跟委員報告，這部分還牽涉到成人的部分，兒少性剝削其實沒有所謂告訴乃論的問題，只要我們受理或是處理、偵辦的兒少性剝削案件，一定會即時會同社工一起來做兒少保護的工作。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。我想請教，你剛剛講到有的被害人在第一時間可能就會通報衛福部的性影像處理中心，但我看到這個性影像處理中心的通報案件跟警政署的通報案件是有一些落差的，而且落差還滿大的，你們有沒有曾經去看一下或者是跟衛福部有一些聯繫？這個落差到底是什麼樣的原因，或者可能需要警方來協助？關於這樣的落差，我認為不論是警政署也好或者是法務單位、法務部，都應該要去協助衛福部的性影像處理中心，因為有一些是需要警政跟法務部來協助的。"],["斯副組長儀仙：是，就像剛剛跟您報告的，如果被害人是成年的話，他可能會牽涉到告訴乃論的案件，只要到警察機關來報案，我們一定會協助他到性影像中心去處理下架事宜，性影像中心如果接受到民眾的檢舉或是它主動查獲，它也會轉知警政單位去做後續的偵查。"],["黃委員秀芳：我想請教警政署這邊，很多基層的辦案同仁都說查緝網路性犯罪的警察很少，專精於這方面的警員確實很少，有的IP是設在境外，所以有時候他要跨境追查是有他的難度啦！請教像這類的案件偵辦有相當的困難，警政署目前查緝網路性犯罪的人力編制到底有多少人？"],["斯副組長儀仙：謝謝委員。相關案件絕對需要經驗的累積，這個部分其實我們也一直在辦教育訓練當中，其實……"],["黃委員秀芳：到底有多少人，你這邊可以回復嗎？可以回答嗎？"],["斯副組長儀仙：目前中央是由刑事局的偵九大隊，如果縣市的話，我們的專責單位是婦幼隊及科技偵查大隊。"],["黃委員秀芳：副組長，你會不會認為因為人力的問題造成查緝困難，這也是原因之一？"],["斯副組長儀仙：要跟委員報告的就是，其實每一個案件要能夠有相當的事證，絕對需要時間讓我們同仁去做一些偵辦。"],["黃委員秀芳：所以你認為人力是不是還需要再增加，或者你們現有的人力要再培育，又或者是可能在這方面的經驗等要再累積？很多基層的警員這樣反映，其實查緝也不是那麼容易，那人力編組確實是非常少，我認為警政署這方面你們應該要再去檢討一下，好不好？"],["斯副組長儀仙：我們教育訓練一定會持續辦理，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，因為今天時間的關係，主席站起來，下次有機會再來，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來我們請張嘉郡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1","speakers":["王育敏","黃捷","蘇清泉","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","陳冠廷","李坤城","許宇甄","沈伯洋","王世堅","陳菁徽","王美惠","王鴻薇","張雅琳","何欣純","范雲","林思銘","林月琴","陳昭姿","廖偉翔","劉建國","黃國昌","林淑芬","陳俊宇","王正旭","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳亭妃","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","李彥秀","蔡易餘","莊瑞雄","楊曜","盧縣一","涂權吉","羅智強","黃仁","沈發惠","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一\n條條文修正草案」案；二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十\n九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案；三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例\n第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案；六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童\n及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之\n一條文草案」案；十一、委員李坤城等 22 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案；十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案；十\n四、委員廖偉翔等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草\n案」案；十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草\n案」案；十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十\n七、委員黃建賓等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草\n案」案；十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修\n正草案」案；十九、委員王世堅等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十、委員陳菁徽等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十\n一、委員王美惠等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二十\n二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員王鴻薇\n等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬\n具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二\n十六、委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委\n員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案；\n二十八、委員劉建國等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n委員柯志恩等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十、委員陳素月\n等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十一、委員范雲等17人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十二、委員林俊憲等21人擬具「兒童及\n少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十三、委員林思銘等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝\n削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十四、委員張雅琳等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條\n例部分條文修正草案」案；三十五、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條\n文修正草案」案；三十六、委員林月琴等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.08034375,"end":11.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.84346875,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.445968750000002,"end":20.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.676593750000002,"end":105.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.53221875,"end":32.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.56721875000001,"end":114.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.30409375,"end":121.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.91909375,"end":125.61471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.81721875000001,"end":219.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.28159375,"end":151.39971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.48409375,"end":151.55159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.12034375000002,"end":157.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.16909375,"end":169.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.54784375,"end":176.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.08534375000002,"end":219.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.76034375,"end":276.88221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.15534375000001,"end":230.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.25346875,"end":306.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.10846875000004,"end":287.73284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.95784375,"end":341.59784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":342.25596875,"end":351.28409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.33534375000005,"end":347.60534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.28409375,"end":351.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.84096875,"end":352.78596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.49909375000004,"end":354.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":352.81971875000005,"end":352.83659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.94596875,"end":364.80096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.32846875,"end":364.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":364.80096875000004,"end":365.12159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.12159375000005,"end":365.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.49284375,"end":372.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":373.05284375,"end":382.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.57034375,"end":382.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.70534375,"end":382.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":383.70096875,"end":414.97034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.97159375,"end":407.34284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.47659375,"end":418.54784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.90659375,"end":418.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":419.08784375000005,"end":422.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":422.91846875000005,"end":425.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.10346875000005,"end":427.96409375}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.38,"end":20.226,"text":"謝謝主席。我們請警政署、然後還有法務部、司法院的我們這個相關人員。好來,以上三個單位的代表請上台。"},{"start":26.684,"end":28.725,"text":"委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":50.473,"end":73.538,"text":"此類案件有超過兩成以上是還起訴或不起訴。法院在審理這類案件中,有三成以上是用檢刑,許多被害人因為家人害怕傷害本身的名譽,或家人知道有的也不敢報案。"},{"start":74.358,"end":100.807,"text":"那我想請教就是說這個警政署根據我們現在目前可能因為這個人手以及手機非常方便所以這個有一些性影像的流傳案件我們看到是這個是有在上升當中是這個每一年好像都有在上升那這個販售獲利的這個案件是不是也有上升的趨向那我想請教就是說我們警政署掌握的這個情況這個數據到底是怎樣"},{"start":102.768,"end":125.365,"text":"就是說你們有看到近幾年來的性影像的偷拍或者是有報案的數據是不是上升?我們看到如果是上升的話,其實還有很多應該是有黑數,有的人是不敢報案。請警政署針對這一部分先回應一下。"},{"start":126.552,"end":144.207,"text":"委員關心的事情依照我們的統計跟了解比如說112年我們總共有通報跟查獲1620件的兒少性剝削案件那當中牽涉到"},{"start":144.867,"end":147.408,"text":" bicyclist 姓尹向"},{"start":170.674,"end":200.674,"text":"議員"},{"start":200.714,"end":202.255,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":219.807,"end":239.177,"text":"好,那我想請教,就是說其實你剛剛有講了說有的被害人他第一時間可能就會通報這個衛福部的這個性影像處理中心嘛。是。那其實我看到這個性影像處理中心的這個通報案件跟你們警政署的這個通報案件是有一些落差的。"},{"start":239.517,"end":239.817,"text":"是。是。是。"},{"start":257.069,"end":275.584,"text":"警方這邊要來協助的。那這樣的落差,我是認為就是說,不論是警政署也好,或者是法務單位,我們法務部這邊,其實我覺得應該是要去協助衛福部這個性影響處理中心。因為有一些是需要警政跟我們法務部這邊來協助的。"},{"start":277.578,"end":305.605,"text":"是跟委員報告我想就是說像剛剛跟您報告就是說如果被害人他是成年的話他可能會牽涉到告訴奶論的案件只要到警察機關來報案我們一定會去協助他到性影像中心去處理下架事宜那性影像中心他如果接受到民眾的一些檢舉或是他主動查獲他也會轉知警政單位我們去做後續的偵查"},{"start":306.925,"end":325.356,"text":"請教警政署這一邊,其實很多基層辦案的同仁都說,要查緝網路性犯罪的警察很少,有這方面專精的警員確實是很少,有的IP是設在境外。"},{"start":325.996,"end":341.423,"text":"所以有時候就是說他跨境要追查是有他的難度啦所以我是想請教就是說像這類的案件偵辦有相當的困難那警政署目前查緝的這個網路性犯罪的人力編制到底有多少人?"},{"start":342.775,"end":364.151,"text":"謝謝委員。我想相關案件絕對需要經驗的累積。那這個部分其實我們也一直在辦教育訓練當中。到底有多少人?你這邊可以回覆嗎?目前我們在中央是由刑事局的針灸大隊。那如果縣市的話,我們的專責單位是婦幼隊以及科技偵查大隊。"},{"start":365.812,"end":381.821,"text":"那副處長你會不會認為就是說因為人力的問題造成查緝困難,這個是原因之一?這個要跟委員報告就是說其實每一個案件要能夠有相當的事證,絕對需要時間讓我們同仁去做一些偵辦。"},{"start":383.795,"end":410.106,"text":"所以你認為這個人力是不是還需要再增加或者是說你們現有的人力那也要再去培育或者是可能在這方面的這個經驗或者是這些可能要再累積我是希望就是說其實很多基層的警員這樣反應就是說其實查緝也不是那麼容易那人力編組確實是非常的少"},{"start":410.606,"end":410.766,"text":"警政署應檢討。"}]}},{"id":"151861","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151861","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e60adde0c3cd318952054712d423581dcc3cba397b1f8b3c9c8466b1d63248431c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"11:25:56 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我問你 你覺得我們的文化水準是越來越高還是越來越低就台灣自己的文化內容來說肯定是發展的越來越好的所以這個有本土文化越來越好不是本土文化是以台灣整體為基礎包括台灣自己的也包括跟國際交流的那你覺得哪一個世代的文化水準比較高"},{"start":112.518,"end":139.789,"text":"每個世代都有自己的文化的喜好跟自己的發展的沒有這個基本上這樣子都找不到答案你知道我在做諮詢顧問的時候我都對大企業老闆那大企業的董事長就基本上要先接受問題要接受問題不然像這樣子回答永遠是鬼打牆因為所有的事情都有原因都無法解決"},{"start":141.789,"end":168.226,"text":"好 這個次長我也希望因為那個幾次的詢問我覺得你都很會回答那回答到讓我們就是好像會有一點就是反正你也都在做事我剛才講我是要幫助幫助你們的那我並沒有包括很多事情我知道大家都很專業而且很辛苦但是我們希望把事情做得更好我這裡也跟次長講一點"},{"start":170.907,"end":189.093,"text":"這個上個禮拜五那個壯世代政治及產業發展促進會在立法院成立了你知道嗎你知道這事情知道恭喜委員對那我要講這個主要的目的是這個有63個立委加入成為會員3個黨的黨鞭都成為副會長"},{"start":192.734,"end":194.815,"text":"那文化部怎麼自己看待這件事情呢?"},{"start":220.919,"end":221.52,"text":"吳春城議員吳春城議員吳春城議員"},{"start":232.964,"end":233.044,"text":"吳春城議員"},{"start":251.589,"end":266.497,"text":"你真的這樣子很會轉這個當然就是文化部的事情嘛我們的文化這個叫做高齡化要轉型這個已經不曉得上講了多少次了然後一直轉轉轉那文化部就不接求嘛不接求這個問題就無解嘛好那個接下來啦文化部看到這個指標這個數據的嘛指"},{"start":277.92,"end":296.799,"text":"直線下降 雪崩式的出版業嘛 這個還需要講嗎 這就是出版業的冬天嘛我很多朋友的出版業的嘛 大家都過得非常辛苦嘛是 紙本書的衰退我們有看到對對對 所以有這些問題嘛 我們現在只是用這些補助啊 讀書館採購 這個沒辦法根本解決問題嘛"},{"start":301.567,"end":314.239,"text":"那現在出版業也是這樣子啦就是出了很多書啦然後還有說最近我看一個新聞有萬本的書籍直接送分化讀啦所以出版業憑感覺出書"},{"start":320.289,"end":336.885,"text":"這裡數據也可以看得到每一個世代的數據這數據就是最低了吧60歲以上的過半都沒有在看書啦那到底是他們不看書還是沒有滿足他們的市場文化部應該要去理解啦"},{"start":339.851,"end":359.27,"text":"日本當然有很多啦,不過這個也跳過但是我們看提供這個我們到書局看的大概就是這一類的書籍給60歲以上的啦都是這種想像,市場沒有想像,沒有內容創作局限所以產業發展當然都很局限嘛"},{"start":360.872,"end":369.885,"text":"那我這裡也給次長看一下啦就為什麼會這樣子因為都停留在引法思維裡面包括"},{"start":371.241,"end":398.787,"text":"文化部也是銀髮思維啦那這我已經講過如果你用文字雲下去你輸入銀髮高領出來的文字雲圖就是這樣子大概就是我們看到如果你輸入壯世代就是這樣子啦落差非常的都是時尚、社會、時感、參與嘛那這樣子就是我們的文化部到底是在做哪一方面的事情你當然你現在站著所以你就沒有市場嘛你所做的事情不是他想要的嘛"},{"start":400.543,"end":426.074,"text":"那壯世代想要什麼東西這裡提供你參考 input output他事實上有很多面很多面想要很精緻的體驗壯世代是比年輕世代更精緻的更精緻的更需要意義的很深入的文化水準的我們不要把它當作當作垃圾要把它倒掉把它倒掉的一個心態現在可以做的事情"},{"start":429.332,"end":456.181,"text":"現在我正在進行我希望文化部能夠跑在我前面壯世代的80項需求調查你現在如果用GPD輸入幾乎都是引法族的思維我們對這個世代太陌生而且太刻板印象了認知系統大大的失靈完全不符合這個世代但是自己都身在其中都不願意去調整和修改這件事情文化部一定要先調整"},{"start":457.341,"end":466.28,"text":"我剛才講了這件事情我一定會追蹤到底而且文化部列為所要所要追蹤的目標要去扛起這件事情的責任次長可不可以"},{"start":467.315,"end":489.023,"text":"我想還是再次說明針對高齡世代的需求應該是所有部會的責任那文化部會站在文化部的業務內容裡面跟業務立場上面來做演繹跟從你真的是完全聽不懂聽不懂在講什麼完全聽不懂我跟你講說這就是文化認知文化認知已經錯誤的時候所有的部會就開始跟著錯誤嘛"},{"start":490.003,"end":517.874,"text":"包括人民的師現在做這一個調查行為的調查我們針對60歲以上的數據調查幾乎是一片空白所以呢現在告訴你我是在幫助你的出版業之東用你用什麼樣的方式這裡有一塊大的市場800萬的人沒有這份的滿足然後呢這裡就是一個大的市場文化部要去導引這個方向嘛"},{"start":519.692,"end":539.059,"text":"所以現在文化部也有提到但是我希望不要敷衍大家都認真想要做事情不要做敷衍不要做敷衍把壯世代的閱讀需求我這裡請文化部承諾三個月內提出鼓勵壯世代的群體提升閱讀意願的政策規劃"},{"start":540.439,"end":561.108,"text":"如何提升剛才講50%過半以上的沒有在讀書那你就放棄他們嗎還是認為他們告訴你剛才講哪一個世代壯世代就是我們叫做文青世代文青世代每一個人都想當作家每一個人夢想夢幻都當作家那時候的文化水準非常高現在直接把它當垃圾丟掉"},{"start":562.608,"end":582.757,"text":"請他們不是不讀書而是沒有需求他們的這是文化部要扛的責任不要再推給什麼各部會了請文化部提出如何提升狀態閱讀意願的政策規劃第二點請出版業供需調查納入狀態的閱讀需求三個月內提出請問次長可不可以"},{"start":583.541,"end":583.841,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝兩位接下來我們請羅廷為委員"}]}},{"id":"151860","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151860","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6193fee2c40b8afaa055d9f022d149edd3cba397b1f8b3c9c018613d2985edf055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"11:22:32 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11:29:21","影片長度":"00:06:49","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":409,"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:29:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T11:22:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1001,"blocks":[["蘇委員清泉：（11時22分）謝謝主席，我請最辛苦的部長。"],["主席：辛苦的薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["蘇委員清泉：部長辛苦啦！也功德圓滿啦！我覺得你的柔軟度也夠，現在回歸醫療也是好事啦！看你今天很開心的樣子，我也替你高興。"],["薛部長瑞元：快要領畢業證書了。"],["蘇委員清泉：我問一個問題，我們常常看到未成年小孩子的性侵案件大部分都是熟人所為。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個是非常麻煩，你有沒有什麼想法？"],["薛部長瑞元：委員現在問的是性侵嘛！性侵的確發生在熟人中間是比較多，問題是一邊是小孩子，一邊可能是小孩、可能是大人，如果兩個都是小孩子，那就是我們經常在講的兩小無猜的案件，那一類的處理模式跟大人對小孩子是不太一樣。我覺得可責性比較高的是大人對小孩子，大人對小孩仍然是以熟人為主，這個就要去考慮到對小孩子的保護者是誰，如果是保護者來侵犯他，這個就是惡行更高，但是更難防；如果只是熟識、熟人，他還有保護者在，那就是要看保護者到底有沒有盡到保護的責任，是不是在這方面有缺陷，所以這部分就是我們需要去努力的方向。"],["蘇委員清泉：如果監護人本身是加害者，那不得了！"],["薛部長瑞元：那個很……"],["蘇委員清泉：那個真的是非常危險，如果是熟人的話，事實上小孩子的抵抗能力幾乎是沒有。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，就是他的保護人要來盡責。"],["蘇委員清泉：這樣的話，我們行政單位或是檢警單位有什麼補強的地方？說這個比較實在啦！這跟藍綠沒關係，跟意識形態也沒關係，就是天天在發生、常常在發生，有沒有什麼好方法？"],["薛部長瑞元：一方面就是所謂保護者的情形，如果保護者沒辦法做到保護的話，這部分就是至少要有機會讓它通報出來，我們經常看到母親帶著小孩子，另外又有一個同居人，同居人要對孩子做侵害，而母親沒辦法去做到保護的事情，但是至少要讓它能夠通報出來，把小孩子移開，不要再放在這個家庭裡面。"],["蘇委員清泉：所以後續真的是一個網，這個網非常非常重要，那要如何補強？我們的兒少保護又歸到衛福部來，衛福部本身又沒有公權力，檢警單位又……"],["薛部長瑞元：公權力應該是有，但是許多的強制力比較不足。"],["蘇委員清泉：檢調都推來推去，因為主責是你們，不像加拿大，加拿大是由警政主責，我們的檢方聽來聽去都在推責任，所以你們有辦法把層級拉高嗎？由你們來跨部會、跨科室等等，這要加強啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["蘇委員清泉：這個看要怎麼處理，看是要修法還是怎麼樣來補強。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個法我們目前正要修，這方面當然是可以，但是在實務運作上面，恐怕法律再怎麼定都沒辦法定得非常仔細，還是要有一些子法規或者是一個協調機制來處理，否則只是寫在法律裡面，怎麼定都不會緊密。"],["蘇委員清泉：定不完整啦！今天禮拜三要修法的四個方向，第一個就是加重刑責；第二個是簡化封網的流程，該封就馬上封；第三個是付費觀賞兒少影像加重刑責；第四個很重要，授權政府主動搜索相關網站跟金流，提高罰則，遏阻源頭去做這些傷害兒童、青少年的事，但沒有更主動偵查、主動尋網，積極掌握源頭的方法嗎？還要被害人檢舉、民眾檢舉，這種被動的做法，防不勝防，所以要怎麼主動偵查？這是我們更重要的議題。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以就是科技方面的一些相關技術要怎麼引進來，我們也希望在這次的修法裡面，第一個，可以授權我們做這件事情，第二個是要用什麼樣的方法，在各部會之間看看目前的科技進展到什麼程度、可以怎麼做。"],["蘇委員清泉：關於我們黨團所提的，早上我唸過了，我本人提的第三十九條，法制局也很贊同，所以大家要一起來。以上，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝蘇清泉委員。","上午的質詢就到陳瑩委員質詢結束後，我們就休息。下午一點半，我們繼續質詢。","接下來請黃秀芳委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1","speakers":["王育敏","黃捷","蘇清泉","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","陳冠廷","李坤城","許宇甄","沈伯洋","王世堅","陳菁徽","王美惠","王鴻薇","張雅琳","何欣純","范雲","林思銘","林月琴","陳昭姿","廖偉翔","劉建國","黃國昌","林淑芬","陳俊宇","王正旭","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳亭妃","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","李彥秀","蔡易餘","莊瑞雄","楊曜","盧縣一","涂權吉","羅智強","黃仁","沈發惠","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一\n條條文修正草案」案；二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十\n九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案；三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例\n第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案；六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童\n及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之\n一條文草案」案；十一、委員李坤城等 22 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案；十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案；十\n四、委員廖偉翔等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草\n案」案；十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草\n案」案；十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十\n七、委員黃建賓等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草\n案」案；十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修\n正草案」案；十九、委員王世堅等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十、委員陳菁徽等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十\n一、委員王美惠等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二十\n二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員王鴻薇\n等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬\n具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二\n十六、委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委\n員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案；\n二十八、委員劉建國等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n委員柯志恩等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十、委員陳素月\n等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十一、委員范雲等17人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十二、委員林俊憲等21人擬具「兒童及\n少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十三、委員林思銘等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝\n削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十四、委員張雅琳等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條\n例部分條文修正草案」案；三十五、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條\n文修正草案」案；三十六、委員林月琴等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.269718750000003,"end":14.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.539093750000003,"end":17.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.01909375,"end":23.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.297218750000003,"end":25.54596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.69784375,"end":26.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.144718750000003,"end":29.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.207843750000002,"end":30.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.86159375,"end":31.317218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.95846875,"end":37.13909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.57784375,"end":39.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.940343750000004,"end":44.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.12534375,"end":46.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.90534375,"end":48.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.63096875,"end":49.204718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.81221875,"end":52.83284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.81159375,"end":56.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.781593750000006,"end":58.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.29596875,"end":61.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.962218750000005,"end":63.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.13909375,"end":65.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.74221875,"end":65.75909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.68284375,"end":68.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.73721875000001,"end":72.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.09971875000001,"end":73.28534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.43721875,"end":73.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.63534375,"end":80.67659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.11534375000001,"end":83.61284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.47346875000001,"end":85.48596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.82346875,"end":87.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.88221875,"end":93.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.42971875,"end":96.35346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.19721875,"end":101.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.64784375,"end":102.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.26784375000001,"end":108.28409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.87471875000001,"end":111.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.40159375,"end":114.05534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.32534375,"end":118.17284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.17284375000001,"end":118.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.32471875,"end":119.42159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.86034375000001,"end":126.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.84221875000001,"end":128.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.87159375000002,"end":147.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.39596875,"end":148.41284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.41284375,"end":149.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.93159375000002,"end":150.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.77534375000002,"end":150.79221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.79221875000002,"end":153.25596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.90159375000002,"end":155.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.50471875000002,"end":160.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.29346875000002,"end":156.39471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.37284375000002,"end":162.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.26721875,"end":165.30471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.30471875,"end":173.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.26971875,"end":173.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.60721875000002,"end":180.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.82534375,"end":201.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.58596875,"end":213.53346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":213.83721875,"end":215.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.91284375,"end":224.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.90721875000003,"end":224.94096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.94096875000002,"end":226.39221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.71284375000002,"end":230.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23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國安委員會長期的資深委員到退輔會服務大概有8年了吧 如果沒有錯的話所以他對各項業務都熟悉 然後這個對跑者對同仁的照顧"},{"start":89.005,"end":91.686,"text":"您支持嗎?支持但是太委屈了吧"},{"start":117.725,"end":136.148,"text":"這是總統人事權 這個不能顧問就是說就他過去所表現我希望他留下來繼續為退伍會來服務我非常感謝他我當然是希望他能夠更上一層樓但是目前人選已經公布了嘛那這個另外"},{"start":137.659,"end":155.853,"text":"我要謝謝這個主委對這個龍明總醫院的關心特別是臺北龍總臺北龍總在我們陳威名院長的就任之後這個院務革新我想令人耳目一新引人印象深刻那個叫重粒子的一個是嗎是"},{"start":157.426,"end":181.445,"text":"重例子那總統也去視察過那是只有除了亞洲除了東京之外日本之外臺灣是第二個是這樣子嗎其實對岸有但是我們的機器應該是最好的我們不期待對岸但是現在我們這個能夠為國人健康來守護所以這部分這個高階的這個醫療器材也是榮總這個優先引進"},{"start":183.567,"end":193.636,"text":"那我也希望說不只臺北榮總是不是未來南北均衡啊高雄榮總也是不是請諸位能夠考量也設置一下服務南部的鄉親啊"},{"start":196.377,"end":214.939,"text":"這南北均衡啊,因為你看一下預算我們已經把屏東總醫院成立了我知道啦,屏東高雄都是一體的照顧高屏本來就是應該的過去因為很多資源都集中在中北部你看一下這過去五年的預決算"},{"start":216.78,"end":235.368,"text":"這個高榮是比較委屈的服務的人口數也多也不會輸給台北也不會輸給台中那台北跟台中的相對醫療資源相對比較豐沛那高雄屏東的這個資源相對比較不足所以退伍會應該扮演這個急先鋒的角色"},{"start":236.633,"end":237.133,"text":"委員會主任委員"},{"start":261.876,"end":290.345,"text":"陳院長,您同意嗎?謝謝邱委員,因為我們三家榮總是基金作業我知道了,我也在國防委員會,他任過三次的召委,這個部分需要從上面,從上而下如果支持的話,基金可以再充裕嘛長期以來是希望說,三家北中高榮總他的預算不要差距太多,他基金的規模也不要差距太多"},{"start":291.257,"end":305.144,"text":"報告委員,我們非常樂意樂見高雄榮總把聯合醫院也拿來一起經營,這樣子等於照顧了這個高雄北部"},{"start":306.258,"end":333.273,"text":"許多的這個民眾我想這些地方我們都在努力其實你可以做一個這個不記名的這個民調如果就立法院的這個國務委員來對不管是部立醫院或者是這個部立醫院或者是國軍醫院或者是這個榮總或者是私立醫療院所信任度最高的我相信應該是榮總系統我相信"},{"start":336.135,"end":337.576,"text":"所以特別是北農的那個麗玲啊葉麗玲非常認真啊"},{"start":361.34,"end":386.633,"text":"所有的慷慨只要所有國務院打給他的每一件都服務的很好而且立即回報讓我們很安心也很放心高榮的李文英女士也是一樣第一層的為國會聯絡這些同仁要給予加冕給予鼓勵你最辛苦113個立法委員像我這樣溫良恭儉讓的算是少數"},{"start":390.643,"end":416.661,"text":"很多激烈吝嗇的很多他們的秉承耐心來為這個選民或者是為國會來協助服務我想特別要跟這個葉麗玲女士跟李文英女士表示感謝那另外高雄跟屏東農民醫院的這個會不會有這個進合的問題所謂進合的問題就是說人才進合的問題"},{"start":418.055,"end":444.629,"text":"那現在草創之期這個屏隆這個很多的這個資源或者人才或者醫師大部分是從高隆借料那這非常久之際啊你那個餅就那麼大醫師就那麼多那你如果借料到高隆借到到屏隆當然固然是好是一種協助趕快上軌道但是這個高隆的能量就會因此降低"},{"start":446.762,"end":471.907,"text":"這個主委你要去思考這個問題怎麼樣委員 我知道的是狀況啊比外面想像的要好很多因為我最近才去過高融我特別問陳院長我在資源上或者協調上有沒有問題陳院長馬上講沒有問題而且吳院長跟我也很熟所以這些方面呢我想委員關心是非常好我們中間要把它做得更好"},{"start":474.082,"end":485.132,"text":"所以就我們跟這個包括台大有大醫學院其他的這個部立院有合作的對象那我們主要是跟這個是跟陽明合作嗎"},{"start":487.592,"end":506.228,"text":"是跟陽明大學合作嗎?我們的醫師的培育啊就是說榮總醫師的經驗跟培育主要來源是這個報告委員榮總體系的醫師來自全國各醫學院但是因為北榮離陽明剛好在隔壁有一半以上的醫師來自陽明交大"},{"start":507.009,"end":530.964,"text":"所以對醫師的這個人才的這個這個增補或者是禁用都是全國各醫療醫學院所有醫學院都可以對所以他的可以所以我的確點出這個問題那這個主委你也了解希望能夠不要造成說兩個醫院的互相支援的這個不要說排擠就是不足的部分"},{"start":532.401,"end":556.117,"text":"那那個岡山農家這個主席站起來再給我25秒鐘這個岡山農家是不是可以因為農家的地方也大地方也大是不是可以因為這個幼兒園這個公托一直都不夠是不是除了我們現在的農家這些長輩的照護之外是不是可以在多餘的空間開設一個幼兒園"},{"start":558.567,"end":577.906,"text":"我們非常歡迎的,因為我們已經有三處非營地幼兒園設立了,效果良好。高雄農家、花蓮農家跟馬蘭,那岡山農家條件也不錯,是不是一個月之內請主委責審我們相關主委人員去做評估?這還寫到教育部,說一個月不夠。"},{"start":578.507,"end":578.607,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151858","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151858","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6ae73a4745c579efd054712d423581dcc3cba397b1f8b3c9c0756ed8debd6e0f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張雅琳","委員發言時間":"11:15:15 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11:25:52","影片長度":"00:10:37","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月29日及5月2日二天一次會））","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":637,"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:25:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T11:15:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":685,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時15分）主席好，我們有請次長。"],["主席：次長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：次長早安。主要也是想延續，就是前面其實有委員也有提到「代尋」，我們現在講的黃牛的定義是說超過面額或是定價販售等等，可是我們現在其實在網路上面非常容易可以找到這種「代尋」、「代購」、「代刷」、「代買」，從後端加價的方式來避免掉前端增加票面金額的問題，同時因為他今天是代買、代尋，所以他一定就會有非常強的動力一定要去買到票，所以可能還是會用程式去掃票，那我想問一下，我們現在針對這樣的情形，有沒有一些因應呢？"],["王次長時思：第一個就是我們並不認為這樣的方法是代購，這就等於是假代購，就是你說你是代購，但事實上你其實是事後約定，並不是事前就約定。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["王次長時思：第二個，即使是這樣，他只要用不正程式，他仍然觸犯刑罰，所以在這兩件事上，我們都一直在倡導說這樣子不叫做代購，大家不要以為這樣子就可以規避這個法律。"],["張委員雅琳：好。那我想問一下，像去年修正的文創法裡面其實也有講到我們可以檢舉他，可是問題是說，我們必須要去提供第四點裡面的LOG歷程紀錄，可是一般來說，民眾不太可能會有這個LOG的歷程紀錄，這樣子民眾就無法到達檢舉的門檻，除非是平臺方或是主辦單位自己提供，那我們到底有什麼樣子的方式可以從源頭來進行管理呢？"],["王次長時思：我們的確會向平臺方來要求索取，只要我們確實有這個票券的號碼或紀錄或者流水號，我們就會向這個平臺方要求提供LOG的紀錄，因為只有這樣才可以找得到真正買票的這個人，原因是這樣。"],["張委員雅琳：所以次長我想確認一下，像我們自己在買票的時候，如果我今天發現網路上面有人已經開始有這種代購、代買、代尋的時候，我是可以直接截圖就這樣做檢舉了嗎？"],["王次長時思：其實是可以的，如果檢舉時其他的資料都有，譬如你有票券號碼這些，你只是沒有LOG的紀錄，我們會去向購票平臺索取。"],["張委員雅琳：OK，好。那我想這一點我們真的還要加強跟民眾做說明，因為像我自己本身就是一個資深的追星族，但是我其實坦白說，我常常看到這些東西，而我買不到票，可是我卻不知道到底該怎麼處置，所以我相信有非常多的粉絲、歌迷朋友們其實都不知道這樣子就可以做檢舉。","再來，最近有一個新聞，就是我們要開放兩岸的觀光，那有很多中國歌迷都希望可以來臺灣追星，其實在現在沒有法規去防止境外掃票這樣的行為之下，我國歌迷的權益可能就會受到影響，那我不曉得我們是否可以再加強實名制的部分，例如有多大的場館就可以來做實名制，因為剛剛其實前面有非常多的委員都有提到，像是日、韓的前端就有一些機制，可能是抽票也好，然後入場的時候，還有一個實名制，我們是不是可以用這樣子的方法來加強保障我國歌迷的權益呢？"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，這一點我們非常願意來做研議，因為的確黃牛這個法規能夠處理的範圍，可能目前來看會有限，只要牽涉到境外的部分，我們幾乎是沒有辦法來做處理，所以如果有這樣的疑慮的話，我們來研議看看進一步可以怎麼強化實名制。"],["張委員雅琳：對，那我想瞭解，研議大概多久會有一個結果呢？"],["王次長時思：我們可以一個月內給委員我們研議的一個初步報告。"],["張委員雅琳：好，謝謝、謝謝次長。再來，像我也知道有一些韓星他們會來臺灣辦見面會，基本上就是會有一些大型的主辦單位來做，可是他們一直都沒有做實名制，那我想瞭解我們現在有沒有一些更積極的方法可以來鼓勵他們，因為如果我們只有申請補貼，他們如果跟找票的平臺來合作，或是跟黃牛來合作的時候，其實他賺的錢比我們申請的補助還要多，所以對他來說，他根本覺得不需要做這件事情。"],["王次長時思：我們現在能做的，的確是跟這些售票平臺或者是主辦單位做協商，也非常謝謝很多的平臺都願意配合，因為現在的實名制是沒有強制法律的基礎。"],["張委員雅琳：對。"],["王次長時思：所以以113年來說，可以看到這些比較重大的、比較知名的幾乎都已經確定可以採取實名制，也非常謝謝他們的配合，可是在未來還有什麼方式可以使得這些主辦單位更願意採用實名制，真的很取決於他們的規模。我們現在的經驗就是，如果他們原來的規模就比較大、整體的獲益及經濟效益比較大的，大概比較樂意來配合實名制，但如果這個售票平臺相對沒有這麼健全的制度，或者在整個方式的……"],["張委員雅琳：次長，很抱歉，其實我自己也知道，因為見面會有某幾家是真的非常大家，我現在看到的都是演唱會，沒關係，這一題是不是可以會後再來詳細地討論我們如何……"],["王次長時思：可以。"],["張委員雅琳：因為他們真的幾乎壟斷了所有韓星來臺灣的見面會的市場，所以還是有需要做一些更積極的合作，畢竟我也是受害者，我就是沒有搶到票。","再下一個題目，謝謝次長，我們請署長。"],["主席：請署長，謝謝。"],["鄭署長世忠：委員好。"],["張委員雅琳：署長，運動需要明星的選手來帶動整個產業及市場，這句話署長認同嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：認同。"],["張委員雅琳：好。這張照片是NCAA愛荷華大賽的女籃明星克拉克，他的得分創下了NCAA女籃的歷史新高，他打破紀錄那一場比賽的票價增長了25倍，從原本的195塊美金整個大飆漲，也打破了高懸54年的得分紀錄。NCAA可以售票，可是我們的UBA就比較不一樣，我們的比賽雖然也非常地精彩，去年勇奪了世界大學籃球系列的冠軍，FMVP二連霸的游艾喆紀念套票也衝破了23萬，可是我們是不能夠賣票的。我想問一下，現在免費的門票加價賣的話會罰多少錢呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：一張1萬8。"],["張委員雅琳：一張是1萬8，是嗎？好，這樣聽起來還滿有遏止力的，但是我想問一下，現在黃牛檢舉專區到底收到了多少的檢舉案呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，目前還沒有收到，都是透過文化部的檢舉專區轉過來，所以我們的網頁的確需要優化。"],["張委員雅琳：對，這個部分要持續地優化。運動需要明星，我們剛剛前面已經講了，所以像現在女排的廖苡任、男排的張育陞、還有中信兄弟隊的游擊手江坤宇都非常地帶動了大家的關注。選手很重要，這是署長認同的，但是國內卻是一言不合就禁賽，扼殺了選手的未來。剛剛其他委員也有提到游泳的部分，署長已經做了說明，我想要再講，這個不合理的規則並不是只有這一場比賽，其實它一直不停出現。例如像去年底有一位就讀花蓮自強國中的甲組選手轉學到無界塾國中，加入了乙組的籃球賽，他也被禁賽了1年。他只是甲組轉乙組，也只是個國中生，這樣的禁賽規則其實是非常不合理的，因為過去有這樣的規則，是因為要防止惡意挖角，可是這件事情根本不存在，但是他也被禁賽了1年。抱歉，再給我一點時間。","再來，這些選手們非常需要成績才能夠升學，他們總共有國高中，尤其是高中才3年，如果被禁賽1年，他到底要如何取得成績？他到底要如何提升自己的技藝？這一點署長是不是有去瞭解現在所有這些不合理的規則？其中也包含了去年的青少聯賽，賭博罰10萬，鬥毆罰20萬，但是不服判決卻要罰50萬，這一切對於學生來說、選手來說都是非常不合理的。去年高中體總的時候有說過，籃球聯賽結束之後會召集大家檢討，所以我想要瞭解：第一個，針對高中體總的部分，我們到底有沒有做檢討？"],["鄭署長世忠：有。"],["張委員雅琳：再來，對於所有不合理的禁賽規則，我們是否有全面檢視禁賽規定呢？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，針對籃球的部分，我們在高中體總召開相關的檢討會議的時候，有邀集全國參賽的教練、學校代表來，初步的回應大概是乙組的部分應該會在下一個學年度開放，但是在甲組的部分，幾乎大部分的教練還是希望能夠維持註冊未滿1年者不得參賽這個規定，主要也是因為在偏鄉及東部的確這個部分實施之後，整個挖角的情況大幅度地降低，所以還是有其必要性，但是乙組的部分我們打算開放，因為大家覺得是OK的。","在新竹聯賽的部分，我會回去澈底地調查，這部分牽涉到很多的協會，體育署會全面地清查。"],["張委員雅琳：我希望署長全面地去檢視各項協會的禁賽規則，尤其剛剛雖然有說甲組有維持這個規定，但是我想署長也非常清楚，有時候學校有一些不合時宜的體罰，會導致學生怕今天……"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，轉心理諮商這部分、到輔導室那邊，基本上我們沒有禁賽的問題，這部分有一個程序在。"],["張委員雅琳：OK，好，謝謝。"],["鄭署長世忠：謝謝委員。"],["張委員雅琳：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝張雅琳委員。","接下來請吳春城委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","范雲","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","黃珊珊","黃捷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","邱志偉","張啓楷","羅智強","林倩綺","林楚茵","劉建國"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列\n席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.77221875,"end":10.915343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.99971875,"end":11.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.36596875,"end":51.955343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.664093750000006,"end":52.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.55846875,"end":57.220343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","star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我們有請次長次長"},{"start":18.454,"end":41.36,"text":"主要也是想要來延續就是說前面已經其實有委員也是有提到這個代詢就是說這黃牛票我們現在在講黃牛的定義是說超過面額或是定價販售等等等等好了可是我們現在其實在網路上面其實非常可以找到這種代詢代購代刷代買從後端加價的方式來避免掉就是說前端增加這個票面金額的問題然後"},{"start":43.26,"end":69.004,"text":"同時說因為她今天是帶買帶巡所以她一定就會有非常動力非常強的動力一定要去買到票所以就會可能還是會用城市去掃票那我想問一下就是說我們現在針對這樣的情形有沒有一些因應呢第一個就是我們並不認為這樣的方法是代購啦因為代購就等於說假代購就是說你說你是代購但事實上你其實是事後約定並不是事前就約定啦"},{"start":69.304,"end":70.625,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":99.065,"end":99.245,"text":"張雅琳議員"},{"start":128.985,"end":129.505,"text":"其實是可以的我們會如果"},{"start":145.273,"end":145.553,"text":"那再來就是說"},{"start":173.502,"end":197.511,"text":"因為其實現在最近有一個新聞就是說我們要開放這個兩岸的觀光那有很多的中國歌迷都希望可以來台灣追星那其實在現在沒有法規去防止境外掃票的城市境外掃票這樣的行為之下我國歌迷的這個權益可能就會受到影響那我不曉得說我們是否可以再加強這個實名制的部分"},{"start":198.531,"end":200.272,"text":"有多大的場館就可以來做實名制?"},{"start":218.058,"end":222.001,"text":"對,那我想了解喔,這大概研議大概多久會有一個結果呢?我們可以一個月後,一個月內給"},{"start":244.505,"end":248.253,"text":"委員我們研議的一個初步的報告好,謝謝,謝謝次長那再來就是說"},{"start":252.683,"end":280.25,"text":"因為其實我們現在因為像我也知道有一些韓星他們來台灣辦一些見面會他們基本上就是會有一些大型的主辦單位來做可是他們一直都沒有做這個實名制那我想了解我們現在有沒有一些更積極的方法可以來鼓勵他們因為其實如果我們只有申請補貼其實他們如果跟這個掃票的平台來合作的時候黃牛來合作的時候其實呢他賺的錢比我們申請的補助還要多所以對他來說他根本覺得他不需要做這件事情"},{"start":282.651,"end":297.854,"text":"我們現在能做的的確是跟這些售票平台或者是主辦單位來做協商那也非常謝謝其實很多的平台都願意來做配合因為現在的實名制是沒有強制法律的基礎所以現在以13年來說可以看到這些比較重大的"},{"start":298.114,"end":298.354,"text":"韓國瑜主席"},{"start":316.664,"end":319.466,"text":"市長抱歉因為其實我自己也知道就是因為我真的這個見面會某幾家是真的非常大家所以我想因為我現在看到的都是演唱會"},{"start":338.24,"end":338.44,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":359.872,"end":361.374,"text":"蘇長,我想我們運動是需要民心的這些選手來帶動我們的整個產業跟市場這句話我們蘇長認同嗎?認同"},{"start":375.414,"end":388.804,"text":"所以這個就是NCCA愛荷華大賽的女藍明星她叫克拉克她得分創下了NCAA女藍的歷史新高她在打破紀錄的那一場她的票價增長了25倍從原本的195塊美金整個大飆漲她也打破了高雄54年的得分紀錄"},{"start":397.25,"end":397.39,"text":"一張一萬八"},{"start":423.786,"end":441.34,"text":"一張是一萬八是嗎?好那這樣聽起來還蠻有這個二子力的齁那但是我想問一下我們現在這個黃牛檢舉專區到底收到了多少的檢舉案呢?報告委員目前還沒有收到的都是透過文化部的檢舉專區轉過來所以這部分網頁我們的確需要優化"},{"start":444.043,"end":459.378,"text":"對齁這個部分要持續的優化那運動需要明星齁我們剛剛前面已經講了所以像現在其實這個女排的這個廖宇任啊還有這個男排的張玉生啊還有這個中信兄弟的游擊手江昆宇都非常的帶動了整個大家的關注選手很重要"},{"start":459.998,"end":477.32,"text":"這是署長認同的但是國內卻是一言不合就進賽扼殺了選手的未來剛剛其實其他委員也有提到這個游泳的部分那剛剛署長已經做了說明那我想要再講這個不合理的規則並不是只有這一場比賽其實它一直不停的在出現"},{"start":478.141,"end":478.301,"text":"再來我們"},{"start":504.401,"end":525.943,"text":"再給我一點時間再來就是說我們其實這些選手們非常需要成績才能夠升學他總共國高中這樣子尤其是高中才三年就競賽一年他到底要如何取得成績他到底要如何提升他自己的技藝這一點其實我想署長是不是有去了解"},{"start":526.223,"end":526.343,"text":"張雅琳議員"},{"start":557.184,"end":564.069,"text":"對於所有不合理的競賽規則我們是否有全面檢視這個競賽規定呢?"},{"start":566.038,"end":591.423,"text":"報告委員 針對籃球的部分我們在公共體總召開相關的檢討會議之後邀請全國參賽的一些教練、學校代表來那初步的回應大概是役組的部分我們應該會在下一個學年度會開放但是在甲組的部分所有幾乎大部分的教練還是希望能夠維持未滿一年注冊未滿一年的不能不得參賽這個規定主要也是因為在偏鄉跟東部的確這個部分實施之後"},{"start":591.883,"end":599.536,"text":"他的整個挖角的情況大大大幅度的降低所以還是有他的必要性但是遺囑的部分我們打算開放因為大家大概是覺得OK的"},{"start":600.154,"end":624.092,"text":"那在親主聯賽部分這部分我會回去徹底的調查那這部分我想牽涉到很多的協會這部分我體育署這邊會來全面的清查我希望署長要全面的檢視各項協會的一些競賽規則那尤其就是說剛剛雖然有說家族是有維持這個規定但是我想署長也非常清楚有時候其實學校有一些不合時宜的體罰是因為會導致學生因為我怕我今天"},{"start":624.292,"end":624.372,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151857","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151857","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6a2e3d7f5cbe264df055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eee931d1867babebde95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"11:08:36 - 11:16:42","影片長度":"00:08:06","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":486,"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:16:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T11:08:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":953,"blocks":[["邱委員鎮軍：（11時8分）主席，我們有請法務部檢察司朱主任檢察官，以及司法院少年及家事廳的陸法官。"],["主席（王委員育敏）：請。"],["邱委員鎮軍：你好！我想請問一下，臺中地檢署偵辦臺版的N號房案，檢方除了依據兒少性剝削防制條例來偵辦之外，也把SCP論壇的幹部、供應者視為組織犯罪來偵辦，那麼我想請問一下法務部，這種模式未來會不會成為檢方打擊性影像犯罪的一個常態手段？"],["朱主任檢察官華君：不好意思，想跟委員確認一下，你是說組織犯罪嗎？適用組織犯罪條例嗎？"],["邱委員鎮軍：對，你們現在是用這條法令來辦，對不對？"],["朱主任檢察官華君：對，其實檢察官會視個案的情節與事證，因為其實組織犯罪條例有自己的定義，如果符合這個定義，檢察官就會適用。"],["邱委員鎮軍：這個部分有必要修法嗎？"],["朱主任檢察官華君：我們是認為組織犯罪條例就已經有規定了，所以檢察官其實是可以直接適用。"],["邱委員鎮軍：但是這個部分我覺得沒有寫得很清楚，不是嗎？"],["朱主任檢察官華君：這個我想我們尊重委員的意見。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我現在不是反對你們用這種方式來偵辦，我也贊成，但只是我覺得這個部分是不是要再討論？"],["朱主任檢察官華君：是可以討論。"],["邱委員鎮軍：如果說有修法的必要，我想我們應該要朝著修法的態度來做，這樣對於我們執法的人也會比較明確。"],["朱主任檢察官華君：是，瞭解。"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，民團認為兒少性影像犯罪逐年修法加重刑度，但是卻經常面臨司法的輕縱，甚至有三成的案件以情堪憐憫為偷拍者減刑，成為防制的一個破口，我想請問今天出席的司法院少年及家事廳的代表，您的看法如何？"],["陸法官怡璇：謝謝委員，關於委員垂詢刑度這個部分，原則上司法院這邊我們尊重個案法官在個案裡面的認事用法，我們一定會在法定刑的範圍內進行妥適的量刑。"],["邱委員鎮軍：像這一次臺中檢方聲押SCP論壇案的主嫌，一度被法院以無管轄權駁回，然後經抗告成功才收押。過去這種事情也不只是一次，面對這種問題大概都是罰錢了事，去年修法後，仍然是規定一年以下的徒刑，本席也希望司法人員對這類犯罪能夠有更深一層的認識，不能再用這也沒什麼的思維，用這種角度、這種態度來辦案，好不好？"],["陸法官怡璇：好"],["邱委員鎮軍：另外，針對今天討論的主題，也是在111年4月29日第4屆推動小組第5次的會議就有民團委員提案，要求政府與國外知名網路業者Google、Meta合作，快速移除含有未成年個資、照片、影像等資料。當然衛福部在後來也在第6次的會議報告兩個重點，第一點，衛福部認為透過iWIN還有與平臺業者合作，可有效處理即時下架的事宜；第二，衛福部表示，網路平臺業者對於兒少性影像移除及下架事宜執行無虞。結果現在看起來也是非常諷刺，因為真正遇到問題時就是沒有辦法下架，問題出在哪裡你知道嗎？"],["陸法官怡璇：這部分可以請衛福部司長回答，謝謝。"],["張司長秀鴛：委員好。iWIN處理的是兒少不宜觀看、18禁的內容，在性影像的議題上面後來我們成立了性影像處理中心去做通知，讓網路業者移除下架，如果他有留資訊可以通知得到，基本上他的移除率是高的，除非他沒有留資訊……"],["邱委員鎮軍：但現在大家都是用跳的，不是嗎？到後來都追不到人。"],["張司長秀鴛：是，封了之後他會用VPN，這個部分的確目前的技術上面還沒有一個可行的方式。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我認為像這個既然要管，我們就管得澈底一點，不能讓這些犯罪者有漏洞可以鑽，希望在這個部分上我們來想一個辦法，能夠嚴格來執行，好嗎？"],["張司長秀鴛：朝這個方向努力。"],["邱委員鎮軍：再來我請衛福部，你們請回。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：在上週六民團上凱道集會遊行，您知道吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：知道。"],["邱委員鎮軍：他們提出政府應成立兒少權益辦公室，據本席瞭解，行政院已經在103年就設置行政院兒童及少年福利與權益推動小組，在蔡政府任內由林萬億政務委員擔任召集人，到現在已經將近8年，召開24次的會議。您覺得專案辦公室與專案推動小組的功能有沒有不一樣？"],["薛部長瑞元：以現在的這個機制在做推動的話，應該也沒有什麼窒礙難行的啦！"],["邱委員鎮軍：所以部長覺得這樣子是好的？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該是對……"],["邱委員鎮軍：那為什麼大家都感覺不到它的存在，才會提這個案子？"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分如果要在行政院再成立一個辦公室的話，第一個就是怕會有疊床架屋的問題。"],["邱委員鎮軍：我覺得這個部分應該再加強運作，推動小組至今都沒有請數位發展部來參與，這部分您覺得有沒有必要提出來？"],["薛部長瑞元：這一次會增加。"],["邱委員鎮軍：會增加啦！希望部長儘快，雖然520要到了，但很多事情我覺得我們當一天和尚唸一天經。","最後，我也看到衛福部討論提案的次數在這麼多年來只有一次，而且是110年4月20號的事情，內容是針對兒童死因分析的協調。部長，這是不是表示衛福部推動兒少權益保障做得很好，還是幾乎沒有做？"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，事實上，大部分我們都是用報告案的方式去提的，在這個小組裡面的委員有一些是民間來的專家代表，提案大部分是由他們來提的。"],["邱委員鎮軍：好啦！時間也到了，我也不耽誤大家的時間，請部長認真一點，把這個事情好好的執行貫徹，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["邱委員鎮軍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝邱委員。我們現在休息5分鐘。","休息（11時16分）","繼續開會（11時22分）"],["主席：請大家就座，我們把握時間。","接下來請蘇清泉委員進行質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1","speakers":["王育敏","黃捷","蘇清泉","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","陳冠廷","李坤城","許宇甄","沈伯洋","王世堅","陳菁徽","王美惠","王鴻薇","張雅琳","何欣純","范雲","林思銘","林月琴","陳昭姿","廖偉翔","劉建國","黃國昌","林淑芬","陳俊宇","王正旭","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳亭妃","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","李彥秀","蔡易餘","莊瑞雄","楊曜","盧縣一","涂權吉","羅智強","黃仁","沈發惠","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一\n條條文修正草案」案；二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十\n九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案；三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例\n第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案；六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童\n及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之\n一條文草案」案；十一、委員李坤城等 22 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案；十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案；十\n四、委員廖偉翔等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草\n案」案；十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草\n案」案；十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十\n七、委員黃建賓等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草\n案」案；十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修\n正草案」案；十九、委員王世堅等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十、委員陳菁徽等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十\n一、委員王美惠等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二十\n二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員王鴻薇\n等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬\n具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二\n十六、委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委\n員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案；\n二十八、委員劉建國等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n委員柯志恩等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十、委員陳素月\n等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十一、委員范雲等17人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十二、委員林俊憲等21人擬具「兒童及\n少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十三、委員林思銘等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝\n削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十四、委員張雅琳等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條\n例部分條文修正草案」案；三十五、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條\n文修正草案」案；三十六、委員林月琴等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":0.18284375000000003,"end":0.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":0.48659375000000005,"end":0.52034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.817843750000002,"end":14.695343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.84721875,"end":18.77909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.99409375,"end":24.22971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.38096875,"end":29.258468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.13971875,"end":34.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.37159375,"end":38.033468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.42159375,"end":39.78846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.10909375,"end":51.26346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.88784375,"end":60.88221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":62.23221875,"end":67.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.53534375000001,"end":69.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":69.53909375,"end":73.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.75784375,"end":80.45721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.42346875,"end":82.34721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.93784375,"end":89.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.01284375,"end":91.99971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.56471875000001,"end":95.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.79659375,"end":98.20971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.69096875000001,"end":119.20221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.19221875000001,"end":102.63096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.40659375000001,"end":108.25034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.18534375,"end":120.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.45534375000001,"end":119.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.00784375,"end":121.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.59409375000001,"end":128.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.56784375,"end":135.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.73971875,"end":139.03034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.19909375,"end":142.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.02971875,"end":145.72971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":146.82659375,"end":160.15784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.86659375000002,"end":164.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.49471875,"end":168.88221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.74284375000002,"end":171.32909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.64971875,"end":174.07971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.02471875,"end":181.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.60596875000002,"end":188.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.58784375000002,"end":191.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.57909375,"end":198.70034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.29096875000002,"end":199.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.96534375000002,"end":220.26659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.65471875,"end":221.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.02159375000002,"end":225.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.80159375000002,"end":227.52284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.86034375000003,"end":229.26096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":229.56471875000003,"end":230.08784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.12159375000002,"end":231.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.65721875000003,"end":232.19721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.55159375000002,"end":233.81721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.62284375000002,"end":235.89284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.12909375,"end":238.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.57159375,"end":244.63409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.81971875000002,"end":247.82346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.85284375,"end":260.98596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.82971875000004,"end":262.21784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":262.26846875,"end":262.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.66909375,"end":264.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":264.49596875000003,"end":265.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":265.55909375000005,"end":267.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":267.04409375,"end":267.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"},{"start":204.005,"end":232.961,"text":"另外我們針對今天討論的主題也是在111年4月29日第四屆推動小組第五次的會議就有民團委員提案要求政府與國外知名網路業者Google還有Meta合作快速移除含有未成年個資照片、影像等資料當然衛福部在後來也在第六次的會議報告兩個重點第一點衛福部認為透過"},{"start":236.724,"end":260.684,"text":"哀慰還有與平台業者合作可有效處理及時下架的事宜第二衛福部表示網路平台業者對於兒少性影像移除及下架事宜認為執行無虞結果現在看起來是非常諷刺因為真正遇到問題時就是沒有辦法下架我想問題出在哪裡你知道嗎"},{"start":265.663,"end":267.386,"text":"這部分可以請衛福部時長回答。謝謝。委員好。"},{"start":274.483,"end":300.481,"text":"安運處理的是兒少不宜觀看的貴滿18禁的這些內容後來在性影像的議題上面後來我們成立了性影像處理中心去做通知讓網路業者移除下降如果他有留資訊可以通知得到基本上他的移除率是高的"},{"start":301.081,"end":328.398,"text":"除非他沒有…但是現在大家都是用跳的嘛,不是嗎?他們都…你到後來都追不到人啊。是,封了之後他會用VPN。對。那這個部分的確目前的技術上面還沒有一個可行的方式。我認為啦,像這既然要管,我們就管的徹底一點。不能讓這些犯罪者有漏洞可以鑽。那是不是希望在這個部分上,我們來想過一個辦法,能夠來嚴格來執行,好嗎?朝這個方向努力,是。好。"},{"start":329.315,"end":332.336,"text":"那再來齁,我請衛福部,你們請回。我等一下啊,一分鐘。那我想齁,在上週六,民團上凱道集會遊行,您知道吧?那當然政府提出"},{"start":350.613,"end":374.75,"text":"應成立兒少權益辦公室。據本席瞭解,行政院已經在103年就設置行政院兒童及少年福利與權益推動小組,在蔡政府任內由林萬義政務委員擔任召集人,到現在已經將近8年召開24次會議。您覺得專案辦公室與專案推動小組的功能有沒有不一樣?"},{"start":378.375,"end":394.463,"text":"應該以現在的這個機制在做推動的話,也沒有什麼自愛難行的啦。所以部長覺得說這樣子是好的?但為什麼大家都感覺不到它的存在,才會提這個案子啊?"},{"start":395.965,"end":424.037,"text":"這部分的話大概如果要在行政院再成立一個辦公室的話那第一個就是他會有跌創家屋的問題還有齁那我覺得啦齁我覺得就是這個部分呢應該再加強齁然後加強來表就是運作齁然後我們推動小組至今都沒有和數位發展部這邊來請他們來參與齁這部分您覺得有沒有必要提出來?"},{"start":424.779,"end":446.513,"text":"這一次會增加啦我希望部長趕快把這個雖然520要到了那很多事情我覺得還是我們當一天和尚念一天經那還有最後我也看到說我們衛福部的討論提案的次數在這麼多年來只有一次而且是110年4月20號的事情"},{"start":450.135,"end":474.808,"text":"內容是針對兒童死因分析的協調。那這部長,這是不是表示我們衛福部推動兒童權益保障做得很好,還是幾乎沒有做?這跟我們報告,事實上大部分我們都是用一個報告案的方式去提的。那在這個小組裡面的委員,有一些是民間來的專家代表,提案大部分是由他們來提。"},{"start":476.735,"end":483.483,"text":"時間也到了,也不耽誤大家時間,請部長真的把這個事情當作認真一點,把它好好的來執行貫徹好不好?好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151856","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151856","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e63e5d13ddb02a5150054712d423581dcc34e2527b10508eeed914f1b81d8e60275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"范雲","委員發言時間":"11:06:26 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11:15:09","影片長度":"00:08:43","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月29日及5月2日二天一次會））","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":523,"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:15:09+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T11:06:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":649,"blocks":[["范委員雲：（11時6分）謝謝召委，有請次長。"],["主席：來，我們請次長。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["范委員雲：次長，針對黃牛票的部分，我有想要追問的。去年我們修法之後，其實黃牛防制已經有很大的進步，現在我們討論的都是進入實際執行後的問題。剛剛已經有委員問過，目前你們的黃牛檢舉專區可以看到檢舉要求的資訊非常仔細，包含入場序號和票券編號/流水號，我認為因為它要求到入場序號和票券編號/流水號，檢舉人如果沒有實質買到票，其實就會缺乏資訊。","根據你們提供的資料，總共1,640個檢舉案件當中，形式要件不齊備的案件就超過1,000件。我回頭看一下我們當初的修法，第十條之一第二款規定的是：將藝文表演票券以超過票面金額或定價販售者，按票券張數懲罰。販售者只要有販售行為就完成犯罪對不對？並不需要到購買。可是我發現你們現在要求的檢舉要件是根據你們自己的行政規範──檢舉案件處理及獎勵辦法第三條第二項第三款，要求檢舉人必須敘明座位號碼、入場序號、票券編號等資料，所以好像有點是自己把檢舉的要件訂得太嚴格，不知道次長是不是同意我這個分析？"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，為什麼一定要有票券號碼或流水號的關鍵是要取得購票者的資料，因為如果沒有這個號碼的話，我們就不會知道是誰購買了這張票，所以它其實有確認票券的意思。如果我們不知道是誰購買了這張票，就沒有辦法從這裡來獲得掃票型黃牛的資訊，如果只要在社群網站上刊登就可以入罪的話，就會變成所有的資料來源就依賴這些網站是否提供，以現在FB和Dcard完全不配合的情況，我們始終都無法取得這些人的個資。"],["范委員雲：好，次長，我知道你的用意是要這個購買的事實成立之後才能夠有明確的販售資料，可是我覺得這裡面有一個矛盾，我們叫人檢舉黃牛，可是檢舉人必須實質上買了黃牛票，等於參與這個犯罪行為才能檢舉，可是回頭看我們當時在立法院討論的時候，文字上就只有「販售」和「張數」，並沒有說要購買行為完成耶！這部分我不知道次長的法律解讀是因為操作面你們需要這樣才能處理，還是操作面我們可以跟數發部或NCC再來合作？這部分是不是可以去研議一下，好嗎？就是我們不用這麼快有定案，只是要瞭解這個部分，好嗎？"],["王次長時思：可以、可以。"],["范委員雲：好，謝謝次長。","另一個部分剛剛其實有委員問過了，金管會也說會跟你們跨部會處理，那我這邊是不是請金管會的代表，今天有嗎？詢問一下，謝謝。金管會今天提供的報告說可以依照稅捐稽徵法第三十條、社救法第幾條，可不可以講一下依照稅捐稽徵法第三十條跟社救法是什麼意思？"],["劉組長萬基：因為現在銀行法的規定是說要調查銀行的金融資料的話，必須以法律明文規定。"],["范委員雲：對。"],["劉組長萬基：所以我們舉的例子只是說這兩個是現在行政機關有在調查的法律的規定，給文化部參考。"],["范委員雲：其實我們就已經有修法規定，我覺得金管會好像消極了一些，這次你們提供的報告既然可以比照稅捐稽徵法第三十條，還有社救法，這部分是不是能夠更積極配合處理一下好嗎？因為我們實質上修過了販售就是一個犯罪行為，而且有法律的條文在。"],["劉組長萬基：目前的法律是還不夠到調查資料的位階，目前的法律。"],["范委員雲：還不夠？如果法律還不夠，那你們協調就可以處理，這是不是有點奇怪？"],["劉組長萬基：不是協調，我們是依法行政，一定是按照法律的規定。"],["范委員雲：對啊！那就是我們的法律夠了，你才有可能協調，所以不是法律不夠的問題，是金管會太消極好嗎？因為你剛剛也沒有跟我說出稅捐稽徵法跟社救法第幾條的詳細內容，顯然你還不夠熟悉，請金管會積極點，因為還有問題要問，請回，謝謝。","次長，剛剛也有委員有問過了，至少根據苗博雅議員的公開質詢，高雄跟臺北市實質上的開罰率差異很大，所以是不是次長針對開罰率的差異這麼大，執行面也給我們委員會一個報告，就是如何改善好嗎？"],["王次長時思：好。"],["范委員雲：我想這個部分就是檢舉的門檻。最後我還想講的是如何落實我們通過的黃牛條款，這部分需要中央跟地方合作。另外，民間團體還反映一件事，就是免費的票券，運產條例跟文創條例我們在修的時候，條文文字的確不一樣，可是我清楚記得當時部長史哲有回答我們，免費票券就是公關券被拿來販售的時候，會依照他所在的座位區域價格來罰款。"],["王次長時思：沒錯。"],["范委員雲：可是因為可能是表格上沒有說明，很多民眾不曉得，以為不能檢舉，是不是可以在檢舉專區加做說明呢？"],["王次長時思：可以。"],["范委員雲：讓大家知道這種公關票拿出來賣，一樣可以檢舉。"],["王次長時思：公關票一樣有加價的問題。"],["范委員雲：好不好？這個可以改一下，就是加註讓大家知道。"],["王次長時思：可以。"],["范委員雲：最後一件事，實名制我也肯定文化部有依照當時大家的期待，有補助要點，而且在施行當中，那現在有個相關的問題，就是實名制的級距式退票方案，看起來還是有改善的空間，因為臺灣的確發生這個事，就是有相關的事件，中國樂團「萬能青年旅店」來臺灣，其實就是使用比較適合實名制的級距式退票方案，可是我們看了一下退票的內容，發現臺灣的規定還是相當地嚴格，就是多少天以前，然後當天的話幾乎拿不到錢等等，民團反映這樣子對消費者的權益沒有辦法保障，那後來我們瞭解，如果參考韓國公平交易委員會的消費者糾紛解決標準的話，他們對退費天數的標準相對寬鬆，扣款趴數也比較嚴格，有給消費者更多的保障，甚至在演出前10天還有全額退費的選項，我想這是韓國公平交易委員會制定出來的解決標準，那你們是在藝文表演券定型化契約裡面的不得記載事項中有明確的規定，是不是可以請次長也參考一下韓國的方案，能不能研議、精進級距式退票的方案，更保護消費者的權益一些呢？"],["王次長時思：跟委員報告，這個我們可以來研議，不過主要是因為在退票方案的4個方案裡面的選擇權是由主辦單位來做決定。第二件事就是在選擇退票方案的時候，他還是有消費者跟業者之間的衡平問題，因為雙方保障一方，另外一方勢必有損失，所以大概是要在這兩者之間取得一定的衡平。"],["范委員雲：對，當然衡平，但是我想韓國可以做到，且韓國的各種天團也是非常知名的全球產業，我想臺灣這部分我們應該不要落後，請你們積極研議一下，然後給本席一個報告好嗎？"],["王次長時思：我們來研議。"],["范委員雲：謝謝次長。"],["王次長時思：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝范委員，謝謝次長。","接下來我們請張雅琳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","范雲","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","黃珊珊","黃捷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","邱志偉","張啓楷","羅智強","林倩綺","林楚茵","劉建國"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列\n席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.92471875,"end":7.995968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.09659375,"end":115.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.96221875,"end":117.16034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.34596875000001,"end":156.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.61971875,"end":121.12596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.02346875,"end":223.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.85971875,"end":205.21409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":206.31096875,"end":206.98596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.53596875000002,"end":225.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.47596875000002,"end":230.67846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.08346875,"end":244.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.79846875,"end":262.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.08721875000003,"end":261.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.97721875,"end":278.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.04221875,"end":286.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.12659375000004,"end":279.64971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.22346875,"end":280.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","st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我知道你的用意是要這個就是說購買的事實成立之後那才能夠有明確的這個販售的資料可是我覺得這裡有個矛盾我們叫人檢舉黃牛可是檢舉人必須實質上買了黃牛票等於參與這個犯罪行為他才能檢舉那可是回頭看我們當時在這個立法院討論的時候我們的文字上就只有"},{"start":184.048,"end":184.088,"text":"販售．章術"},{"start":204.775,"end":205.615,"text":"請經管會代表今天有嗎?詢問一下"},{"start":231.584,"end":244.782,"text":"今天提供的報告說可以依照稅捐基徵法第30條、涉救法第幾條可不可以講一下依照稅捐基徵法第30條跟涉救法是什麼意思"},{"start":246.094,"end":262.169,"text":"因為現在銀行法規定是說要調查銀行的金融資料的話必須以法律明文規定我們舉的例子只是說這兩個是現在行政機關有在調查的法律的規定給文化部參考"},{"start":263.25,"end":286.4,"text":"其實我們就已經有修法規定了我覺得金管會好像消極了一些那這一次的你們提供的報告既然就可以比照稅捐激增法第30條還有這個受救法這部分是不是能夠更積極配合處理一下好嗎就是因為我們其實實質上修過了這就是犯受這個就是一個犯罪行為而且有法律的條文在"},{"start":286.9,"end":313.776,"text":"目前的法律是還不夠到這個調查資料的位階目前的法律還不夠那如果法律還不夠那你們協調就可以處理不是協調我們是依法行政一定是按照法律的規定那就是我們的法律夠了你才有可能協調嘛所以不是法律不夠的問題是金管會太消極好嗎那因為你剛剛也沒有跟我說出到底是這個稅捐積增法跟涉救法第幾個詳細內容那顯然你還不夠熟悉那請那個金管會積極點因為還有問題要問請回謝謝"},{"start":317.418,"end":338.628,"text":"次長,剛剛有委員有問過了就是現在至少根據苗博雅議員的公開質詢高雄跟台北市就是實質上開罰率差異很大那所以是不是次長針對開罰率差異這麼的大執行面也給我們委員會一個報告就是說如何改善好嗎?好"},{"start":339.949,"end":363.565,"text":"好 那我想這個部分就是檢舉的門檻那最後我還想就是如何落實我們通過的黃牛條款這部分需要中央跟地方合作那另外呢民間團體還反映一件事就是免費的票券運產條例跟文創條例我們在修的時候條文文字的確不一樣那可是我清楚記得當時部長史哲有回答我們"},{"start":364.005,"end":365.126,"text":"最後一件事呢實名制我也"},{"start":392.643,"end":422.063,"text":"肯定文化部有依照當時大家的期待有補助要點而且在施行當中那現在有個相關的問題就是實名制的集聚式退票方案看起來就是還是有改善的空間上次我們因為台灣的確發生這個事就是有相關的事件然後中國樂團萬能青年旅店來台灣那其實就是使用這個比較適合實名制的集聚式退票方案"},{"start":422.503,"end":443.156,"text":"可是我們看了一下退票的內容發現台灣的規定還是相當的嚴格就是多少天以前然後當天的話幾乎拿不到錢等等那很多民團不是很多民團民團反應這樣子對消費者權益沒有辦法保障那後來我們了解如果參考韓國公平交易委員會的消費者糾紛解決標的的話"},{"start":446.218,"end":475.143,"text":"他們對退費天數的標準相對寬鬆扣款趴數也比較嚴格有給消費者更多的保障甚至在演出前10天還有全額退費的選項那我想這是韓國的公平交易委員會制定出來的解決標準那你們是登記在你們是在藝文表演卷定型化契約裡面有不得記載事項中有明確的規定是不是可以請次長也參考一下"},{"start":476.183,"end":501.329,"text":"韓國的方案能不能研議經濟齊聚式退票的方案更保護消費者的權益一些呢跟委員報告主要是這我們可以來研議啦不過主要是因為在這個退票的方案的四個方案裡面的選擇權是由主辦單位來做決定那第二件事就是說在選擇退票方案的時候他還是有消費者跟這個業者之間的橫評問題因為雙方"},{"start":503.689,"end":504.69,"text":"主席主席主席"}]}},{"id":"151855","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151855","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e61dfa7131bf5b6596055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eee7640df9354259b2b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"11:01:32 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11:08:22","影片長度":"00:06:50","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":410,"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:08:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T11:01:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":899,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（11時1分）謝謝主席。我們是不是有請薛部長。"],["主席：薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好！"],["王委員育敏：部長好！部長，我還是要先請教你食安的問題，我上個禮拜有追寶林案，現在已經增加到4人死亡……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，4人死亡。"],["王委員育敏：但是到目前為止，我看剛剛你回答媒體的是法務部並沒有主動跟你報告現在案件的最新進度，也就是從本席上個禮拜詢問到現在，你們兩個部會之間沒有最新的訊息。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個並不是部會，因為檢察官是獨立在做偵查的工作……"],["王委員育敏：那他的進度都沒有人可以掌握嗎？到目前偵辦到什麼進度，連部長都不能掌握？","法務部的代表，這個已經是4個人死亡，這個是在食安事件上面非常重大的事件，現在偵辦的進度都沒有給外界一個合理的報告及說明，我覺得這個也不符合比例原則吧！目前到底偵辦到哪裡？要結案了嗎？一個多月過去了。"],["汪參事南均：跟委員報告，目前我們的資料是臺北地檢、新北地檢、士林地檢署都有案件在偵辦中，檢察官有保全了相關的證據，相關的被告也有詢問了，部分也有一些強制處分的作為，但是這個部分因為我們得尊重檢察官的偵辦……"],["王委員育敏：瞭解，外界大家想要知道的是到底是什麼原因造成的？這麼重大的食安事件到底是什麼原因造成的？結果查了半天，一個多月過去了，沒有人知道耶！真的會變無頭公案，我覺得這個其實會很荒謬！就是我們用這麼大的力氣，大家這麼關注，結果到目前為止沒有辦法給外界一個交代，已經4個人死亡，這麼重大的事件，查不出來嗎？遇到什麼困難？"],["汪參事南均：應該檢察官目前有掌握，如果衛生單位有相關採檢項目，要看他們的檢驗狀況，可能檢察官有掌握，但是我們這裡就沒有辦法去探詢。"],["王委員育敏：我上個禮拜就問，類似這麼重大的事件，政府機關沒有人可以知道最新的進度，也沒有辦法適時地一個階段對外去說明，我覺得這個是完全不對的！這是食安事件，這不是涉及到個人的犯罪問題，什麼偵查不公開，而是大家想要知道，對於源頭，你問了廚師、問了什麼，檢驗所有的東西，到底現在最新掌握到的是什麼？可能的方向是什麼？結果都沒有答案，到目前為止都沒有答案，我覺得這個是不對的！我希望這個部分法務部回去要好好檢討。","另外一個是食安事件一爆再爆，170公斤的黑胡椒細粉，業者主動送驗，又驗出有蘇丹色素3號、4號，到底漏網之魚從哪裡來的？我們邊境不是百分之百都已經擋下來了嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，因為要往前推算，它的效期應該有3年，現在自主送驗的這一個，我們已經去追它的上游廠商，上游廠商的資料顯示，這一批進來的時間應該是在我們全面百分之百檢驗之前就已經進來……"],["王委員育敏：更之前……"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["王委員育敏：那它怎麼會這個時候才想到要送驗？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個廠商可能是因為有這樣子的一些訊息，所以它自己也希望……"],["王委員育敏：但是我記得你們食藥署有說你們有往前推估啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我們有往前推3年……"],["王委員育敏：是啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：但是那3年主要是對於辣椒粉，這個又是另外一個……"],["王委員育敏：所以黑胡椒細粉是不在你們往……"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有往前推3年……"],["王委員育敏：那會不會還有別的……"],["薛部長瑞元：後來我們有，後來我們是連這個黑胡椒……"],["王委員育敏：黑胡椒細粉都有。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，都有……"],["王委員育敏：那你們推到什麼時候？有沒有在你們原本要去檢驗的時間範圍之內？"],["薛部長瑞元：有。"],["王委員育敏：這一家有沒有？"],["薛部長瑞元：這一家我們還在查……"],["王委員育敏：還在瞭解。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為它東西都已經賣完了，那個上游的廠商、進口的廠商東西已經賣完了。"],["王委員育敏：對，如果這一家驗出來的真的是有蘇丹色素的話，我高度懷疑這個蘇丹紅污染的就不是只有胡椒粉，黑胡椒粉其實也都有添加，如果是黑胡椒粉也有添加的話，它的範圍擴大可能還有更多，那你應該要通知其他有進口黑胡椒細粉的，表示還有更多，不是只有這一家，看起來那就是一個都會添加的樣態。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，這個目前我們也在複驗當中，因為它送驗的那個機構出來的檢驗值是在……"],["王委員育敏：偏低嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，就是在檢驗極限的附近……"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以我們必須要再複驗；第二個比較奇怪的是它有蘇丹3號，也有蘇丹4號……"],["王委員育敏：同時兩個色號。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，這也非常……"],["王委員育敏：那你們什麼時候可以儘快查出來？"],["薛部長瑞元：我們看看這個禮拜能不能就驗出來，驗出來之後的話，事情就會比較清楚，但是那些預防性的下架我們都已經在做了。"],["王委員育敏：好，因為你們之前已經對外宣告正式結案，蘇丹紅市面上不會再找到，結果現在又來一次，而且還170公斤。部長，我希望在你卸任之前，食安所有的漏洞，在查驗的過程、檢驗的方法，你應該要全力地把這個洞補好，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["王委員育敏：這個其實是非常重大的。","最後我講一點，今天所有法案的處理，我們希望是儘快，但是也希望修法之後，真的可以彌補現行的這些漏洞及不足。我覺得現行最重要的就是主動與即時，這兩個一定要做到，主動就是上次部長講的，你說你現在的行政權限沒有辦法主動去巡查，所以我們也會有修正動議，就賦予主管機關有這樣的主動權，主動去巡查的權力；另外一個就是即時下架，過去是這樣子很緩慢地一層又一層，我希望透過這次的修法，我們一旦主動發現或者是接受檢舉，都可以在最快的時間即時下架，這個才是對於受害者最大的保護，我希望這兩點在這次修法裡面都可以做到，也希望衛福部全力來配合這次的修法，好不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["王委員育敏：好，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王委員。","在邱鎮軍委員質詢完後，休息5分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1","speakers":["王育敏","黃捷","蘇清泉","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","陳冠廷","李坤城","許宇甄","沈伯洋","王世堅","陳菁徽","王美惠","王鴻薇","張雅琳","何欣純","范雲","林思銘","林月琴","陳昭姿","廖偉翔","劉建國","黃國昌","林淑芬","陳俊宇","王正旭","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳亭妃","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","李彥秀","蔡易餘","莊瑞雄","楊曜","盧縣一","涂權吉","羅智強","黃仁","沈發惠","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一\n條條文修正草案」案；二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十\n九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案；三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例\n第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案；六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童\n及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之\n一條文草案」案；十一、委員李坤城等 22 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案；十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案；十\n四、委員廖偉翔等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草\n案」案；十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草\n案」案；十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十\n七、委員黃建賓等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草\n案」案；十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修\n正草案」案；十九、委員王世堅等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十、委員陳菁徽等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十\n一、委員王美惠等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二十\n二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員王鴻薇\n等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬\n具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二\n十六、委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委\n員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案；\n二十八、委員劉建國等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n委員柯志恩等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十、委員陳素月\n等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十一、委員范雲等17人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十二、委員林俊憲等21人擬具「兒童及\n少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十三、委員林思銘等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝\n削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十四、委員張雅琳等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條\n例部分條文修正草案」案；三十五、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條\n文修正草案」案；三十六、委員林月琴等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.042843750000001,"end":7.43909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.09721875,"end":8.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.024718750000002,"end":13.547843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.952843750000003,"end":36.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.48721875,"end":24.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.59909375,"end":38.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.80971875,"end":45.205343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.17159375,"end":52.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.078468750000006,"end":47.399093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.774093750000006,"end":51.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.064718750000004,"end":67.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":68.02034375000001,"end":71.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.45846875000001,"end":72.64409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.55534375,"end":80.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.67659375000001,"end":83.61284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.69721875,"end":88.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.42221875,"end":89.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.43471875,"end":95.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.96534375,"end":97.29846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.99034375000001,"end":103.49159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.89659375000001,"end":117.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.46409375,"end":117.48096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.48096875,"end":125.64846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.07034375,"end":129.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.52971875,"end":132.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.48284375,"end":132.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.97221875,"end":133.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.00596875000002,"end":161.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.81159375000001,"end":168.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.47284375,"end":176.12159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":176.52659375000002,"end":180.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":180.69471875000002,"end":184.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.14971875,"end":211.44096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.44096875000002,"end":214.10721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.30159375000002,"end":212.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.54596875000001,"end":221.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":221.07659375,"end":224.56971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.60346875000002,"end":233.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.60721875000002,"end":228.11346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.11284375000002,"end":234.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.50909375,"end":244.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.81596875000002,"end":249.20721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.62909375,"end":250.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.03409375,"end":250.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":250.82721875000001,"end":252.29534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.53159375,"end":257.74596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":254.53971875000002,"end":255.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.23534375,"end":261.44159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":261.23909375,"end":267.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":268.05659375,"end":272.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.51159375000003,"end":284.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":274.31721875,"end":274.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.03284375000004,"end":285.79221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.53909375,"end":290.29784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.97721875,"end":294.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":294.98909375,"end":295.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.54596875000004,"end":299.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.30909375000005,"end":300.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.37221875,"end":309.99096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":303.46034375,"end":304.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.72096875,"end":311.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.59846875,"end":313.6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我們是有請薛部長"},{"start":13.993,"end":33.829,"text":"部長好,部長我還是要先請教你死案的問題我上個禮拜有追保齡案現在已經增加到四人死亡但是到目前為止我看剛剛你回答媒體的是說法務部並沒有主動跟你報告現在案件的最新進度也就是從本席上個禮拜詢問到現在你們兩個部會"},{"start":37.012,"end":52.249,"text":"爾之間沒有最新的訊息?這並不是部會啦,就是說因為檢察官他是獨立在做這個偵查的。那他進度都沒有人可以掌握嗎?到目前偵辦到什麼進度連部長都不能掌握?那個法務部的代表來。"},{"start":54.891,"end":71.327,"text":"這個已經是四個人死亡,這個是在食安事件上面非常重大的事件,那現在偵辦的進度都沒有給外界一個合理的報告跟說明,我覺得這個也不符合比例原則吧。目前到底偵辦到哪裡?要結案了嗎?一個多月過去了。"},{"start":73.598,"end":97.081,"text":"跟委員報告目前我們的資料是臺北地檢、新北地檢、士林地檢署都有案件在偵辦中那檢察官有保全了相關的證據相關的被告也有詢問了部分也有一些強制處分的作為但是這個部分因為我們得尊重假官的偵辦瞭解大家外界想要知道就是說到底是什麼原因造成的"},{"start":98.615,"end":116.823,"text":"這這麼重大的實案事件,到底是什麼原因造成的?結果查了半天一個多月過去了,沒有人知道耶。真的會變無頭公案,我覺得這個其實會很荒謬,就是我們用這麼大的力氣,大家這麼關注,結果到目前為止沒有辦法給外界一個交代。已經四個人死亡,這麼重大的事件。"},{"start":117.363,"end":118.124,"text":"我希望這件事情你們應該我上個禮拜就問齁"},{"start":135.945,"end":161.177,"text":"像類似這麼重大的事件,然後政府機關沒有人可以知道最新的進度,也沒有辦法事實的一個階段對外去說明,我覺得這個是完全不對的。這是食安事件,這不是涉及到個人的犯罪問題,什麼偵查不公開,而是大家想要知道說你到底對於源頭,你問了廚師,問了什麼檢驗所有的東西,到底現在最新掌握到的是什麼,可能的方向是什麼,結果都沒有答案。"},{"start":161.857,"end":184.477,"text":"到目前為止,都沒有答案。我覺得這個是不對的。另外,我希望這個法務部回去要好好檢討。另外一個是,這個食安一爆再爆,一百七十公斤的黑胡椒細粉,業者主動送驗,又喊,又驗出有蘇丹色素三號、四號。這個到底漏網之旅從哪裡來的?我們邊境不是百分之百都已經擋下來了嗎?"},{"start":185.565,"end":213.7,"text":"因為它的效期去往前推算,它的效期應該有三年。現在自主送驗的這一個,我們已經去追它的上游,上游廠商。上游廠商他們的資料顯示就是說這一批進來的時間應該是在我們全面的百分之百檢驗之前就已經進來。更之前,那他怎麼這個時候才想到送驗?"},{"start":214.58,"end":222.787,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":241.863,"end":254.872,"text":"黑胡椒細粉都有,那你們推到什麼時候?有沒有在你們原本要去檢驗的時間範圍之內?有。他這一家有沒有?這一家我們還在查,因為他東西都已經賣完了。"},{"start":258.474,"end":284.12,"text":"那個上游的廠商啦,進口的廠商。對,如果這一家驗出來的真的是有蘇丹色素的話,那我高度懷疑這個蘇丹紅它污染的就不是只有胡椒粉嘛,黑胡椒粉就是它其實也都有添加,那如果是黑胡椒粉也有添加的話,它的範圍擴大可能還有更多。那你應該要通知其他的有進口黑胡椒細粉的啊,表示還有更多。"},{"start":285.601,"end":299.652,"text":"不是只有這一家喔,看起來那個就是一個都會添加的一個樣板。這個跟委員報告,這個目前我們也在復驗當中,因為他送驗的那個機構出來的檢驗紙是在那個偏低嗎?"},{"start":301.074,"end":324.692,"text":"對,就是在檢驗極限的那附近,所以我們必須要再復檢。第二個比較奇怪的是,它有蘇丹三號也有蘇丹四號。同時兩個色號?對,這也非常…那你們什麼時候可以盡快查出來?我們應該看看這個禮拜能不能就把它驗出來,驗出來之後的話就事情會比較清楚,但是那些預防性的下架我們都已經在做了。"},{"start":324.952,"end":348.058,"text":"好,這個因為你們之前已經對外宣告說已經正式結案,然後蘇丹紅市面上不會再找到,結果現在又來一次,而且還有170公斤,我覺得這個食安漏洞,這個部長希望在你卸任之前,這個所有的漏洞在查驗的過程、檢驗的方法,你應該要全力的把這個洞補好,好不好?"},{"start":348.858,"end":373.11,"text":"這個其實是非常重大的最後我講一點今天所有法案的處理我們希望是盡快但是也希望說這個修法之後真的可以彌補現行的這些漏洞跟不足那我覺得現行最重要的就是一個主動跟及時這兩個一定要做到那主動就是上次這個部長講的你說你現在的行政權限沒有辦法主動去巡查"},{"start":373.59,"end":399.333,"text":"所以呢這個我們也會有修正動議就賦予主管機關有這樣的主動權主動去巡查的權利另外一個就是即時下架過去是這樣子很緩慢的一層又一層那我希望透過這一次的修法我們就是只要有一旦主動發現或者是接受檢舉都可以在最快的時間即時下架這個才是對於受害者最大的一個保護"},{"start":399.913,"end":406.512,"text":"我希望這兩點在這次修法裡面都可以做到那希望衛福部全力來配合這次的修法好不好好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151854","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151854","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6084ce747a52dfb4f054712d423581dcc34e2527b10508eee923b70b41c55a0415ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:57:17 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11:06:20","影片長度":"00:09:03","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢。（4月29日及5月2日二天一次會））","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":543,"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:06:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:57:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":615,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（10時57分）謝謝召委，有請王次長跟鄭署長。"],["主席：好，請次長跟署長，謝謝。"],["王次長時思：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：次長好。去年我們陸續修了文創法跟運產條例，所以今天特別來跟你討論一下。去年修正文創法跟運產條例，在通過修法的時候，我記得有幾個附帶決議，其中一項附帶決議就是說，如果賣方以原價轉售，收取手續費或者是寄送費，在合理範圍內是不構成加價轉售的，想請問所謂的合理範圍是否已經明定了價格範圍跟所謂的判斷指引，有沒有提供相關資料給相關單位參考？"],["王次長時思：跟委員回復，就價格的本身，我們沒有訂定一個固定的趴數或者是價格，主要的原因是因為在修法的期間，當時我們一開始的提案是將百分之十視為合理定價，但後來這一點受到很大的反對，認為那就等於承認黃牛有百分之十的空間，所以把這個趴數移除了。我們現在的判斷基準就是說，這些所謂的合理費用指的是因為要販售這個票券所產生的必要費用，也就是說，這個票券被當成二手票在販售，如果需要郵寄或者是需要交通，是由第三方來收到這個金額，而不是售票者自己收取，因為這是必要性的花費，就會屬於合理的範圍，目前的定義是這樣。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以這個合理範圍還是用文字去敘述，就是沒有辦法……"],["王次長時思：對，比較沒有辦法有一個量上的確定。"],["林委員宜瑾：這樣的指引有沒有給各地方政府？"],["王次長時思：地方政府的部分，我們都有說明會，也會有函釋。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，接下來想請教的就是剛剛柯志恩召委也有提到的檢舉黃牛專區的問題，說真的，基本的網頁，民眾基本上一定會從Google去搜尋，如果用Google搜尋「檢舉黃牛專區」，出現的一定是文化部新設立的藝文票券的檢舉黃牛專區，這個做得很完整，民眾一看就一目瞭然，點哪裡就可以查詢什麼，可是我們反過來看運動票券的檢舉專區，搜尋結果不是在第一個，還要往下滑，要先滑到動滋券的相關網頁裡面才能間接找到那個檢舉專區，而且網路用戶的體驗都不是那麼好。雖然有檢舉和查詢進度的按鈕，可是真的沒有藝文票券那麼清楚明瞭。所以剛剛柯召委也有指點你，而我則是想具體請教，你說要優化，那你優化和改善的進程為何？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，照理講這個部分在6月底之前應該可以完全改善。"],["林委員宜瑾：6月底以前？好！那就期待6月底以前有跟文化部一樣明瞭易懂的網路頁面可以進去。","本席認為打擊黃牛應該要跨部會共同執行，剛剛柯召委也有提到，既然藝文票券和運動票券都有檢舉專區，那麼是不是可以進一步思考把這兩個統合在一起？這些在行政院院會你們都可以拿出來提，因為我知道這並非文化部或教育部可以來處理，可是如果有一個統一的檢舉專區的網頁，點進去再依藝文票券或運動票券來選，我覺得這樣對民眾的搜尋和檢舉會比較容易，對不對？"],["王次長時思：跟委員說明，主要是因為我們兩個部會所針對的票券型式不同、法源依據也不同，所以整合在一個專區恐怕會產生一些混亂並遭受質疑，譬如運動票券為什麼不適用藝文票券的標準，或者是藝文票券為什麼不用運動票券的標準，我覺得民眾在適用上恐怕會有一些疑慮，但是我覺得可以做的事情比較是其實現在委員們也都在談的，就是這個部分可不可以有一個整合性的、專法型的規範來規範黃牛？因為黃牛除了藝文跟運動，在其他……"],["林委員宜瑾：就是不要分別放在兩個法裡面。"],["王次長時思：對，因為以現在這樣的方式，部會審查時遲早會遇到問題，尤其執行單位都在地方政府，會出現執法和判准上的落差，這個也是我們現在最警覺在防範的，但是我覺得就根本之道來說，也許我們更願意支持一個專法的誕生，以此來做一個整合。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK，我也很支持用專法來處理。","再來本席想要討論零元票券的問題，去年底我們在審查運動產業發展條例的時候，關於黃牛票的相關罰則，我就有特別提醒如果有不肖人士用零元票券來炒作要如何懲處和防制的問題，當時我舉的例子是大巨蛋測試賽開放1.3萬張票供民眾索取，可是票券被索取一空之後，有很多遭黃牛轉賣，炒到1張四、五千塊錢，此事媒體報導的篇幅很大。像大巨蛋測試賽數量這麼龐大的零元票券是千年一遇，不是常有的狀況，可是我覺得我們應該要制定一定的法規，不容黃牛從中干預。現在包括文化票券也一樣，當然文化票券的部分我有請教文化部，得到的答復是你們零元票券的狀況比較少，因為你們通常是以付費觀賞為主，所以基本上比較不會去思考零元票券的罰則和防範的做法。"],["王次長時思：沒有、沒有，跟委員說明兩個部分，我們藝文票券有兩種零元的狀況，第一種是公關票，公關票的部分我們會依據它的區位來認定票價，所以一樣可以依文創法第十條之一來進行裁罰，第二種狀況是整場不收費，就是像剛剛委員提到的大巨蛋那種情況，因為當時立法維護的法益是市場交易公平性，是以藝文票券的市場交易公平性做為文創法第十條之一修法的法益基礎，所以當時就沒有把所謂的零元放進來，現在如果在藝文部分有零元的狀況，我們可以來做個案的討論，看看是不是有需要修法跟上，因為目前來說，藝文表演活動的演出比較少用零元的方式，然後我們主要保護的其實也是藝文票券交易的市場秩序。"],["林委員宜瑾：瞭解。"],["王次長時思：所以差異是在這裡。"],["林委員宜瑾：是啦！零元票通常是公關票……"],["王次長時思：對，公關票是可以的。"],["林委員宜瑾：那個時候我們沒有想到像大巨蛋測試賽這樣的狀況，可是我的意思是說，沒有規範到的部分那時好像是類似改採行政措施去處理嘛！"],["王次長時思：對，因為它就會被取消資格，就是如果有查到，還是可以檢舉，檢舉的話就會取消他的入場資格等等，以這些行政方法去做。"],["林委員宜瑾：可是這樣的話我們就會反向來看，因為這樣好像在懲罰消費者，而不是懲罰賣的人，你懂我的意思嗎？就是我拿到這張票，然後要進場的時候被取消資格，因為我是消費端……"],["王次長時思：所以我們還是要跟大家說，最好就是不要買黃牛票啦，買了黃牛票就會有各種風險和代價。"],["林委員宜瑾：當然、當然，可是這個賣的人更可惡啦！認真講是這樣。"],["王次長時思：是、是、是。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以我的意思是，剛才您說要立個專法，這個我贊成，可是在專法還沒有出來之前，是不是還是要在文創法裡面對於零元票券的情形有一些防範跟作為？"],["王次長時思：我們來看實務上有什麼方式可以做禁止或相關的改善，因為目前零元票券比較不是藝文票券市場的主流，也很少發生，但如果一旦發生了，我們就針對這個個案來看，如果零元票券確有發生所謂黃牛票的行為的時候，我們應該會針對這個個案，以現行文創法第十條之一為基礎來做一定的防範。"],["林委員宜瑾：OK，好，謝謝次長、謝謝署長、謝謝召委。"],["王次長時思：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝林召委。","接下來我們請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":310,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","萬美玲","洪孟楷","陳培瑜","葛如鈞","葉元之","郭昱晴","吳沛憶","陳秀寳","林宜瑾","范雲","張雅琳","吳春城","羅廷瑋","黃珊珊","黃捷","陳亭妃","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","邱志偉","張啓楷","羅智強","林倩綺","林楚茵","劉建國"],"page_start":243,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請文化部、教育部、內政部、法務部、金融監督管理委員會、數位發展部及行政院主計總處列\n席就「表演及運動賽事黃牛票氾濫，相關單位取締、防範及執法成效」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133901_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.0259687500000005,"end":8.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.341593750000001,"end":10.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.67846875,"end":15.285968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.69096875,"end":17.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.59784375,"end":56.174093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.44409375,"end":61.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.38846875,"end":104.70659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.40909375,"end":64.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.44096875000001,"end":105.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":105.02721875,"end":110.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":107.22096875000001,"end":107.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.84096875,"end":110.64659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.73096875,"end":111.28784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.28784375000001,"end":115.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.72596875,"end":116.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.4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黃牛除了藝文跟運動就是說不要分別放在兩個法裡面因為現在以這樣的方式來說遲早都會出現部會在審查尤其執行單位都是在地方政府會出現那個執法跟判準上的落差那這個也是我們現在最警覺在防範的但是我覺得就根本之道來說也許我們更可願意支持一個專法的誕生的這些做一個總和"},{"start":297.33,"end":326.232,"text":"好 OK我也很支持用專法來處理好那再來本席想要討論零元票券的問題軍營體我們在審查這個運動產業發展條例的時候關於黃牛票的相關法則我就有特別提醒就是說有不肖人士用零元的票券拿來炒作然後我們就就是說我們那時候就有討論說怎麼樣去懲處跟防治的問題那當時我舉的例子是大巨蛋那時候測試賽"},{"start":327.913,"end":330.275,"text":"那時候就是開放1.3萬張票來索取可是那時候就有很多被搶空然後黃牛拿來轉賣炒到一張四五千塊那時候媒體爆得很大那像大巨蛋這樣的測試賽這麼龐大的0元票券"},{"start":346.705,"end":372.365,"text":"當然我覺得這是千年一遇的狀況不長可是我覺得我們也要有制定一定的法規來不容黃牛從中來干預所以我們如果來看到現在的包括我們文化賽事也一樣文化票券也一樣當然文化票券我有請教文化部文化部是說零元票券狀況你們比較"},{"start":374.864,"end":402.673,"text":"你們比較難啊就是說你們通常是付費的觀賞比較為主所以這個所謂的這個林宜瑾票券的罰則跟防範的這個做法你們這部分好像沒有回答是說就基本上就是比較不思考這個問題沒有沒有跟委員說明兩個部分因為我們在藝文票券林宜瑾有兩種狀況第一種它是公關票那公關票的部分我們會依據它的區位認定票價所以它一樣是可以以文創法11條來進行裁罰的"},{"start":404.113,"end":404.773,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":432.619,"end":460.54,"text":"表演活動的演出比較少用零元的方式然後我們主要保護的其實也是這個這些議員票券交易的這個市場秩序所以差異是在這裡是啦我覺得因為當初我們就是我們有用所謂的這個因為我們零元票券通常是公關票嘛所以那時候我們沒有想到說類似像這種大巨蛋測試賽這樣可是我的意思是說沒有規範到齁"},{"start":461.681,"end":472.966,"text":"那我們那時候好像是那是改採行政措施去處理嗎對 因為他就會被取消資格就是我查到他也可以檢舉檢舉他就會取消他的入場資格啊對對對對這一些方式用行政方法去做可是這樣子的話我們就會反下來看這樣好像懲罰消費者而不是懲罰賣的人你懂我意思嗎就是說我拿到這張票然後我要進場我被取消因為我是消費端因為我還是要跟大家說最好就是不要買黃牛票"},{"start":492.202,"end":518.084,"text":"所以買了黃牛票就會有各種風險跟代價對當然當然可是這個賣人更可惡啦人家講是這樣所以我的意思說是不是要當然您說要弄個專法這我贊成可是在專法還沒有這個出來之前是不是要還是要對於這個在文創法裡面這個對於零元票券的情形是不是要有一些這個防範跟作為我們來看"},{"start":519.565,"end":520.005,"text":"謝謝委員﹗謝謝署長﹗謝謝召委"}]}},{"id":"151853","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151853","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e62ba0de65552e820a12d28fff7690636534e2527b10508eee2357e572c87655e35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:54:19 - 11:05:32","影片長度":"00:11:13","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議（事由：審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":18,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-18"},"duration":673,"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:05:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:54:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":707,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時54分）謝謝主席，有請我們秘書長。"],["李秘書長俊俋：委員早。"],["吳委員思瑤：秘書長，辛苦了！我在這裡聆聽了其他委員的質詢，我真的還是奉勸在司法及法制委員會質詢的委員確實都需要把法律的脈絡、連條文的本質都要搞清楚。我早上也聽到現在在場的羅委員說他個人是傾向支持廢監察院，非常好！如果未來有可能修憲的話，希望國民黨內的有志之士要言所當言、為所當為。我為什麼有感而發呢？就在上一屆我們終於有機會提出修憲案的時候，我吳思瑤就是立法院第一個提出廢考監之修憲提案的立委，而當時在修憲案的整個討論當中，那時候的李俊俋委員也提出了很多專業的見解，都有投入，所以廢考監是民主進步黨長期以來的主張。但是在上一屆的修憲委員會從頭到尾以不出席杯葛的方式來阻撓廢考監提案的是中國國民黨，在程序上以不來開會杯葛廢考監之修憲提案而被討論的就是中國國民黨。甚至我們也一併來還原，當初我們希望能夠給年輕世代更好的參政權的空間跟自由，我們提起我們憲法所規定公民權的年限下修到十八歲，也是在國民黨的消極杯葛之下而非常遺憾的功虧一簣。這是還原真相，如果國民黨的羅智強委員您願意支持廢監察院，在未來修憲的過程我們一起來加入廢考監的程序，好，謝謝。","現在進入我今天的主題，我要說對國民黨版監察院組織法的修法萬萬要三思！這一次的修法聚焦在第三條之一第一款、第六款要刪除，我認為這就嚴重地限縮了監委任命跟監察院組成的多元性，進一步地更破壞了憲法權力分立的原則，秘書長，是不是？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是，我們是這樣認為。"],["吳委員思瑤：我觀察的兩個重點，也期期以為不可的就是這兩個條文款項的刪除就會限縮了監委的組成……"],["李秘書長俊俋：如果第一款跟第六款拿掉的話，我們會少掉三分之一甚至到四成的比例是沒有辦法擔任監委的，包括院長、副院長。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，監察院的常設委員會有非常多，就如同立法院，它需要內政、外交、社會福利、財經、教育文化、交通採購、司法獄政，另外plus就是國家人權委員會，它需要的專業面向是非常的多元，所以我們都希望監察委員的任命來自於非常豐沛的社會人才庫並從裡頭來挑選。如果修法限縮了第一款跟第六款，將迫使未來監察委員可以被提名任用的人才來源只剩下法界、公務體系以及學者這些面向，相對的，在取才的管道上就有所限縮，對不對？"],["李秘書長俊俋：是。"],["吳委員思瑤：好，請看下一頁，這個是我自己努力去整理的，我並沒有獲得你們內部在當初提名時是用哪一款，但是我自己很努力的去整理出來，所以秘書長可以指正。正因為現在有監察院組織法第三條之一第一款規定監察委員可以延攬曾任立委一任或是直轄市議員二任以上的人，而且他要有好的表現，社會形象是佳的，專業能力是強的，因為有這樣一個條款的授權，你看，第4屆有6位，像院長王建也是用這一條，洪昭男、黃煌雄、趙昌平、陳健民、錢林慧君，第4屆有6位是援用這一款。第5屆有田秋堇、章仁香、江綺雯、趙永清、瓦歷斯．貝林，這是我自己整理的。在第6屆的副院長李鴻鈞也是用這個條款，還有葉宜津、王榮璋、賴振昌、范巽綠、陳景峻。"],["李秘書長俊俋：跟吳委員報告，王榮璋委員這一次是用第七款，因為他是對人權議題特別關心，他是人權委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：OK，因為他本身也曾任前立委，又是人權方面的專家。所以如果拿掉了第一款，你看這些優秀人才都進不了監察院替我們做相關的監察工作，而且我更要說，這裡頭超越黨派啊！有新黨的、有親民黨的、有國民黨的、有民進黨還有台聯，所以只要是好的人才，他曾任立委、曾任直轄市議員，他有足夠的專業，在政治經驗上跟政策的能量上，有助於他履行監委的職責。"],["李秘書長俊俋：過去81年寫在第一款，最主要的理由就是因為立委或是直轄市兩任以上，他對監督政府比較有經驗。"],["吳委員思瑤：更有經驗。"],["李秘書長俊俋：他沒有銜接上的問題。"],["吳委員思瑤：是，沒有錯。秘書長替我補充了一個很重要的前提，民代的經驗真的有助於監委查案、辦案。我們再來整理出第六款，如果我整理錯，秘書長也可以指正，我們同樣因為有了第六款的授權，可以豐富監委組成的多元面向，第4屆就有劉興善、馬以工、吳豐山；第5屆連前院長張博雅、孫大川、王幼玲、仉桂美、王美玉、林盛豐、楊芳玲都是適用第六款；第6屆有4位，包括現任的陳菊院長、林盛豐監委、王美玉監委，浦忠成監委。第六款是什麼？就是他富有政治經驗或是主持新聞文化事業，有相當的正面聲譽。所以這個部分如果連第六款都砍掉了，這些……"],["李秘書長俊俋：第5屆的院長、副院長就通通不見了。"],["吳委員思瑤：就通通不見了對不對？所以這樣子的砍條款，要限縮監委的人才來源，我認為這是帶著有色的眼鏡，這是有針對性、有選擇性，而且是不顧監察院的職權行使，它甚至就是要癱瘓監察院，我這樣說，您的理解……"],["李秘書長俊俋：我剛剛報告的時候說明過，監察院最重要的是委員組成的多元性，這樣子的修法會限縮我們的多元性。"],["吳委員思瑤：沒有錯，謝謝。回到憲政體制，我再一次說非常的遺憾，司法及法制委員會再一次修法凌駕憲法，就五權分立的憲法運作原則，提名權在行政權，就監委的部分是總統提名，立法權是行使同意權，這是一個非常清楚的憲政權力分立，可是現在的立法委員都想要取代行政權，想要取代行政院長、想要取代總統的權力，他不只要同意權，還要剝奪提名權。"],["李秘書長俊俋：我剛說明過了，如果限縮這兩個條款，其實相對程度也限縮了總統的提名權。"],["吳委員思瑤：是啊！"],["李秘書長俊俋：總統有提名權，立法院有同意權，這是兩個不同的概念。"],["吳委員思瑤：所以違憲的條文不要再來了。這次還有一個條文，是要監委行使職權超越黨派，看起來講得好像很正面，但事實上，我認為它是一個規範過當的修法，我們當然認為監察委員需要超出黨派，只要他任監委，他就要退出政黨的活動，不再參與政治活動，但是現在如果要把他擴大到10年內曾加入政黨或參與任何政治活動者，不得為監察委員，這不就又剝奪了憲法保障的個人參政自由嗎？而且10年是非常過當的限制，秘書長請說。"],["李秘書長俊俋：集會結社的自由是人民應有的權利，10年前我沒有辦法預期我會不會當監察委員，我不會考慮這個嘛！所以有限縮人民集會結社的疑慮。第二個部分是，這裡的政治活動，其實定義不清楚，它的範圍到底到什麼程度？參加遊行算不算政治活動？參加call in算不算政治活動？或是其他。針對這個部分，除了監察委員必須獨立行使職權以外，我們的自律規範也規範得很清楚，不能助講、不能提供輔選，都不行！我們的自律規範規範得很清楚，所以沒有必要在組織法裡面再行這樣的規範。"],["吳委員思瑤：政治活動難以定義，而且也牴觸了憲法保障的參政權。"],["李秘書長俊俋：是的。"],["吳委員思瑤：最後一項，我也有感而發，就發生在立法院，立法院修正我們自己的內規，正副院長要議事中立，也是正副院長要退出政治活動，但是我們坐在這裡，我們心知肚明，每一次的表決，我們的副院長都已經加入表決的行列，他沒有做到議事中立，如果要退出政治活動，韓國瑜院長跟江啟臣副院長有沒有帶頭作為表率來履行立法院職權行使相關法規的議事中立原則呢？所以要刮監委的鬍子之前，也要刮刮立法委員自己的，我做這樣的補充。","所以最後我還是希望大家理性看待修法，立委再大也不能比憲法大，立委再大也不能把手伸到監察院裡頭去管東管西，而且是過當的管制，我希望大家能夠三思。謝謝秘書長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝吳委員。","因為早上到現在都沒休息，我們現在先休息5分鐘，5分鐘回來之後，有兩件臨時提案，5分鐘回來的時候處理，謝謝各位。","休息（11時5分）","繼續開會（11時11分）"],["主席：我們現在開始開會。處理臨時提案，共兩案，請一併宣讀，宣讀後，再逐案處理，請宣讀。","一、","案由：","有鑑於監察院院長陳菊遭檢舉於2023年12月30日赴高雄舊城教會違法為特定立委候選人輔選，事後，陳菊先是透過辦公室否認輔選，宣稱係受邀前往教會彌撒，之後證實12月30日當天舊城教會並未舉辦彌撒活動。今年3月21日，陳菊再次透過辦公室改口當日為探友行程，前後說法不一，為何一再說謊，心態可議。","陳菊為特定立委候選人輔選之行為，明顯違反《監察院監察委員自律規範》第二條第二項「監察委員於任職期間不得從事下列政治活動或行為：……三、為公職候選人助選。」之規定；本院為全國最高民意機關，有責任究責陳菊此一違法行徑，爰此，建請監察院依據《監察院監察委員紀律委員會設置辦法》第二條第一項第一款：「本會之任務如左：一、關於人民陳訴之監察委員違法失職或違反監察委員自律規範案件之審議處理事項。」啟動調查，避免監察院長一再敗壞官箴，讓國人對監察院愈加失望。","提案人：黃國昌　　傅崐萁　　林思銘　　翁曉玲　　吳宗憲","二、","案由：","有鑒於諸多民眾陳情及反應，監察委員高涌誠之行使職權，從曲棍球案、卡管案、論文案及近期世台會總幹事羅益世回台遭強制驅逐出境案，均有政治介入的疑慮，有違《監察院監察委員自律規範》「監察委員依法行使職權，應超出黨派，保持中立」之規定，恐有失職之處。","依《監察院監察委員紀律委員會設置辦法》，監察委員如有違法失職或違反監察委員自律規範者，可移送紀律委員會。然參照前監察委員陳師孟之爭議過程，並無任一監察委員行使移送監察院紀律委員會。","爰此，立法院為代表民意的憲政機關，為有效反映民意，建請監察院依據《監察院監察委員紀律委員會設置辦法》第二條第一項第一款「關於人民陳訴之監察委員違法失職或違反監察委員自律規範案件之審議處理事項」，將監察委員高涌誠移送監察院紀律委員會，以調查有無民眾認為違法失職之處。","提案人：羅智強　　翁曉玲　　傅崐萁　　林思銘"],["主席：我們現在先處理臨時提案第1案，請問提案委員有無補充說明？好，請補充。"],["黃委員國昌：這個案子其實剛剛在詢答的過程當中，我想應該已經表達得很清楚了，因為去年我開始公開檢舉這件事情，不過按照今天詢答的內容，監察院秘書長說沒有人檢舉，所以整個自律的程序都還沒有啟動，我覺得從監察院的角度上面來看，監察院在面對自家人是不是有違法輔選這件事情，恐怕不是監察院院長自己說了就算了，如果這個事情是監察院院長自己就說了算，沒有啟動任何自律調查的程序，真的是讓人殊難想像啊！以後如果要按照相同的標準，任何要被糾舉、要被糾正、要被彈劾的人，他也可以跟陳菊一樣，有樣學樣，自己發一個新聞稿說自己的新聞稿裡面已經講得很清楚了，這個事情沒有再什麼樣子的說明或者是調查的必要。這個顯然可能跟我們對於監察院在被廢止以前所應該扮演的角色，以及所期待的標準，大相徑庭。既然今天在詢答的過程當中，秘書長已經很清楚的說了，目前沒有任何的啟動程序來加以調查，而依照監察院監察委員紀律委員會設置辦法，只要有人民陳述的話，他們就要啟動調查，我今天就公開而且直接做了這樣子的檢舉，啟動他們的自律調查檢舉。以上說明，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，請問機關有沒有要補充說明？"],["李秘書長俊俋：依據我們的自律規範，這個部分任何人如果認為公務員涉有違失，可以向監察院檢舉，本院就會依照法定程序處理，所以今天的提案兩個都算是人民提出的檢舉案，我們就依法定程序處理，但是裡面有一些文字是不是可以建議做修正？"],["主席：謝謝，柯總召。"],["柯委員建銘：這不是政治鬥爭，什麼才叫做政治鬥爭？到底有沒有去瞭解當天的情況是怎麼樣？有真正地在場嗎？陳菊院長也一再地發新聞稿表示，當天車上有酒，然後就用這個看圖片說故事。黃國昌委員，你做為這樣的打手，反正對於不同立場的你就窮追猛打，看圖說故事。我們要瞭解，剛才秘書長也講過，人民檢舉就是人民檢舉嘛！你可以檢舉呀！假如是院際之間的事情，可以由立法院發動檢舉，他們要啟動內部的調查層級已經到紀律委員會，假如照這樣的標準的話，權力分立原則在什麼地方？今天坐在我對面的傅崐萁率中訪團到中國訪問……"],["傅委員崐萁：不要再……賴清德嘛！"],["柯委員建銘：你聽我講話嘛！你說是和平之旅、破冰之旅，但我看這是賣臺之旅吧！如果這樣可以的話，行政院或監察院可以行文給立法院送紀律委員會嗎？這也太離譜了吧！黃國昌你要聽人家講，你不要整天只會嘿嘿叫，覺得只有你講的才是對的，事實真相是怎麼樣，你有沒有搞清楚？"],["主席：好，鍾佳濱委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席，我們對於委員會跟院會之間的職權，我想在司法及法制委員會的委員會跟其他委員會相較，我們有更高的要求，我這邊也請主席可以稍微釐清一下，因為委員會在坐很多委員過去在學生時代也擔任過學生議會的議員，都知道議事規則，其實目前的委員會是承院會之命，進行包括法案的審查、包括議案的審查，當然在施政報告總質詢之後也會開始讓各部會向各委員會進行業務報告。委員會本身的臨時提案就被拘束在這些院會交給委員會的工作當中，所以一般我們委員會的臨時提案多半是針對業務報告的部門，請它進一步地提供補充的說明，或者是在法案的審理過程當中，需要業務機關提出必要的資訊，我們才能據以審議法案，或者我們在審議預算的過程當中，我們需要提供過去執行的證明。","這些或許在地方議會稱之為「索資」，但是在委員會是一個常態，我們要求受監督機關，就是行政院，包括各部會因為我們受院會的委託所進行的這些各類審查，在委員會進行的時候是我們所必要的，所以我們才作成了決議，因此我們今天這兩個提案在場，我們必須審視這兩個提案跟院會交付給本委員會審查的法律修正案，其中的關聯性是什麼。如果能夠具體說明，我相信本委員會作成的決議比較上就比較符合國會運作委員會體例的一個職權行使。但是我還是要提醒，誠如過去我在當輪值召委的時候也提醒過委員，其實監察院也好，司法院也好，它都是跟立法院一樣的憲政機關，而憲政機關只有行政院依憲法向立法院負責，立法院包括院會也不會對於司法院或監察院在法案跟預算以外，它的獨立行使職權有任何的要求，也不具有這樣的權力，大法官的解釋都非常地清楚。所以我剛剛有點遺憾地聽到了我們監察院秘書長說，這個提案他可能會視為一般人民陳情案來處理，如果是一般人民陳情案，其實就根本不須要委員會在這邊做討論。","本席剛剛在質詢時候，也就這樣的部分，包括有國民黨的總召，率團17人到中國去，其中有包括外交及國防委員會的委員才在本月上上週出席了院內的一個秘密會議。在這種情況之下，立法院有沒有去做列管，秘書長說委員的部分不在監察院的職權行使對象裡，但是立法院的公務員如果怠忽職守，是在監察院的調查糾正範圍內，所以他請本席……如果有提出，監察院當然就會來受理。所以如果是這樣子，我是建議主席這個案子作這樣的處理，既然提案委員有這樣的要求，監察院也會受理，是不是我們今天根本無待決議，就直接由委員個人向監察院提出這樣的檢舉，不管是檢舉立法院的公務員，對於涉密人員赴中的列管疏失，或者是對於其他機關有公務人員失職的部分，都可以移請監察院來做一個調查以為處置，我覺得這才符合憲政機關應有的作為，也符合本委員會承院會之命，受理進行預算或法案審查應有的作為，以上請主席可以跟大家作一個宣告，瞭解我們這兩個提案的處理方式。以上建議，謝謝。"],["主席：沒有，我這邊就依法處理了，我就依照規則處理。我覺得我沒有別的意思，就是一切依照規則處理。因為剛剛沈委員先舉手，我們先請沈委員發言。"],["沈委員發惠：主席、各位同仁。我想今天這兩個臨時提案，我們看一下其實大家都知道這個是政治性提案，因為依法來講，我們立法院是沒有任何權力的，依權力分立的原則，我們也沒有權力要求監察院幹嘛的。因此我看了兩個提案，雖說我們都是用「建請監察院」，但為什麼要用「建請」？因為我們知道、我們自己寫提案的人都知道我們沒有權力要求監察院做什麼嘛！這是第一件事。","第二件事，我看兩個臨時提案的核心精神，最核心的都是監察院監察委員自律規範，這個自律規範的「自律」兩字我不曉得大家是不是不太理解，就像我們立法院的自律規範，這個也不是法律。這裡又說「違反自律規範」有這個違法行逕，它就不是法啊！為什麼違法？既然是「自律」，為什麼今天立法院要求，又提案說要自律？今天如果說監察院哪個監察委員提個案子說立法院應該要把誰送立法院紀律委員會，這樣我們立法院可受得了？我們立委受得了嗎？這是權力分立的基本原則，所以我們大家還是講講道理啦！","這個自律規範就不是法律，說它違法，但它到底違了什麼法？這可能是助理寫的，因為在座各位的法學素養應該都不至於寫出這種文字啦！所以你們這個助理……請回去要求助理在寫這個臨時提案的文字時不要這樣子。明明是違反自律規範還寫違法，這個有點問題啦！","憲法增修條文第七條也明白地寫出我們監察委員要獨立行使職權，他就是獨立行使職權，我們這個臨時提案、羅智強委員的臨時提案這裡就指名哪一個監察委員辦什麼案子的時候，你們這些提案人認為他有政治介入的疑慮，但是憲法就已經寫了，他是獨立行使職權了，這個就像我們遇到司法案件恐龍法官，我們也不能說立法院決議哪一個法官的判決是有問題的，因為你個人可以對他有評價，但是我們立法院做成決議對於獨立行使職權的人行使職權的方法，我有意見，我認為是直接違反憲法賦予監察委員獨立行使職權的精神。尤其我們是立法院，我們是權力分立之中的一個角色，不是一般的民眾，這裡也不是政論節目、call in節目，所以我希望大家三思。如果要表決，我們當然是輸，因為主席又特別休息等傅崐萁總召趕到現場才開會，我們表決當然是輸，隨便你們，躺在這裡隨便你們，但是大家要講講道理，出去社會都有公評，我希望大家講講道理，以上。"],["主席：下一位請羅智強委員。","不過在此之前，我再把臨時提案1的文字補充一次，黃國昌委員的提案是「建請」監察院，不是命令監察院……"],["沈委員發惠：我有看到，剛剛也有講了，我們有看到2案都是建請。"],["主席：我解釋一下，以前在法院的時候，檢察官是具體求處多少年，後來被說具體有一點命令性，後來都是改成建請，因為「建請」就不會被認為是一個強制的要求，因為檢方無權干涉司法審判，所以它是用建請，要請各位再仔細看一下，臨時提案是用「建請」，跟五權分立沒有關係，我覺得這個話是有一點問題的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席，我們立法委員依法能不能建請監察委員移送自律？"],["黃委員國昌：主席，對不起！會議詢問。"],["主席：會議詢問要優先。"],["黃委員國昌：我只有一個簡單的問題，我們現在發言的狀態是不需要經主席同意，大家隨便按麥克風都可以發言嗎？"],["主席：依照行為法，是要由主席這邊決定。"],["黃委員國昌：好，如果是這樣子的話，我要拜託主席，請您執行這樣的規範，規範是怎麼樣都沒有關係，大家喜歡按麥克風發言就按麥克風發言，如果規範是這樣也沒有關係，說清楚、講明白；如果不是這樣的話，等一下沒有主席點到發言的，自己恣意的按麥克風發言，請主席主持會議制止，謝謝。"],["主席：好，依照立法委員行為法，在議程進行期間還是要由主席這邊來決定，要發言的人舉手發言，我這邊會請他發言，我們就不要按麥克風來干涉正在發言的委員，謝謝各位。","接下來請羅智強委員發言。"],["羅委員智強：我覺得在司法及法制委員會都是在看綠色迴力標大賽，真是驚奇萬分！什麼迴力標飛來飛去、打來打去，全部往民進黨身上招呼。我唸一句名言給大家聽「真是佩服啊！秘書長，我最後請教你一個問題，如果立法院說王建煊嚴重破壞官箴，要求監察院彈劾，你們會不會處理？」這句話是誰說的？這句話是在座的李俊俋秘書長當立委的時候說的，了不起啊！彈劾都可以啊！都可以要求彈劾。結果現在我們建請把陳菊、高涌誠送紀律委員會，李秘書長都講了本來就可以，結果這些護航部隊非常熱鬧精彩、迫不及待，迫不及待打臉李俊俋幹什麼？不好啦！都自己同黨同志，不需要這樣子，很難看的，這不是政治鬥爭，什麼是政治鬥爭？你擺明在鬥爭李俊俋，我看不下去，真的，我看不下去！","我要跟各位說句實在話，今天黃國昌委員的臨時提案就是表達立法院司法及法制委員會的態度，監察院陳菊到底有沒有違反行政中立，本來就應該好好調查瞭解，監察院不做，立法院司法及法制委員會就代表民意做出一個正式的決議，請監察院慎重考慮移送紀律委員會好好調查、調查，在機制上本來就可以，就像李俊俋都可以要求彈劾王建煊。各位知道當時的秘書長怎麼回答嗎？當時秘書長怎麼回答？李俊俋說忘了，問他說已經忘了，當時秘書長的回答是依程序進行，一樣，今天送出去就依程序進行，不要緊張，不要迴力標，不要再打李俊俋，都是同黨同志，照顧一下，謝謝。"],["主席：請問還有哪位委員要發言？","請莊委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝召委，我現在才知道羅智強和李俊俋那麼好，其實本席在看這個案子，監察委員或監察院長被檢舉的特定事項是有沒有為特定立委候選人輔選，這個倒是一個事實的問題，個別委員或一般民眾去檢舉，有事實的話，我不認為監察院連回答都不敢回答、都不用回答，尤其是黃國昌委員現在在立法院的分量是不可同日而語的。我倒覺得一個你可以自己去做檢舉的案子，要特別在立法院委員會裡面做表決，萬一表決沒有通過，不是很怪嗎？這個案子一看就知道充滿著政治性，我相信我們講黃國昌委員你這個案子充滿政治性，你也不能說我們講的沒有道理。我倒覺得像這種案件要讓它成案的話，不需要經過委員會就可以成案，就可以去做的事情，偏偏要捨棄這樣的檢舉方式，在委員會裡面做這樣的提案，我倒覺得是多此一舉。國民黨委員和提案人有你們的看法，我們表示尊重，民進黨很明顯的，我們也有不一樣的看法，不一樣的看法又不是一定要到最後用表決的方式，才可以達到你的目的，所以再請黃委員考慮一下。"],["主席：因為剛剛柯總召先舉手，先柯總召……"],["羅委員智強：主席，大家發言一次完就可以表決了，反正也沒什麼意思，不然現在就表決，我提議現在表決。不然吳思瑤先講啊……"],["主席：不然這樣好了，因為柯總召剛剛發言過一次，他們現在希望一人一次。"],["柯委員建銘：主席，你當主席一直被下面指揮就漏氣了，這樣可以嗎？"],["羅委員智強：那我要提停止討論喔！"],["柯委員建銘：你要怎麼提是一回事。"],["羅委員智強：總召，讓吳思瑤先講好不好？總召，你剛剛講過了，讓吳思瑤先講啦！"],["柯委員建銘：我們內部的事情不用你煩惱，好不好？"],["羅委員智強：報告主席，停止討論，現在表決。"],["柯委員建銘：什麼停止討論？"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下現在是什麼發言秩序？"],["柯委員建銘：已經登記完畢以後要停止討論？"],["主席：這樣好了，我們都一人發言一次，好不好？"],["柯委員建銘：突然更改遊戲規則，主席，你要做好啦！不要受到下面的指揮，你是檢察官……"],["主席：因為我剛才已經答應總召了，所以我們讓總召再發言一次，之後大家一人發言一次，國民黨這邊也一樣，我們讓議事順利一點。"],["柯委員建銘：大家加減聽一下啦！不要急啦！你們表決穩贏的，怕什麼？大家要有基本的民主素養，剛才提到李俊俋在委員會的發言，持平而論，我也在委員會發言講過王建煊應該下臺，可是立法院並不是作決議，是審查他們的預算案、法律案的時候做這樣的發言，各位要瞭解當年王建煊是怎麼講的，他說監察院就是瘋人院，應該把它關起來，他自己還去告裡面的監察委員，他最大的問題是什麼？他把國民黨一些不當黨產資料銷毀，這何其大事啊！你們要瞭解過去是怎麼樣的情形。王建煊還有在監察院裡面望彌撒等荒謬行為一大堆，所以立法院對於監察院的預算質詢的時候，提出一些看法不可以嗎？當然這不是決議案，今天你是用決議案，一個非事實的東西來追殺到底，陳菊院長也講得很清楚，他的酒是放在車上，不能看到一張照片就代表他去輔選，當天也沒有候選人在場。","黃國昌你是法學博士，我告訴你，大法官釋字第461號解釋，你自己看清楚，1998年的時候，那時候我們還是在野黨的時候，所有國民黨還有民進黨的委員都認為時任參謀總長的唐飛應該來立法院備詢，但是唐飛不來，後來去大法官解釋，第461號出來了以後，就是說因為唐飛當參謀總長，過去是不用備詢的，但是他有主導而且共同主導所有的國防預算以及國防政策，乃至於國防法案，所以他必須要來立法院備詢，第461號解釋出來是什麼？五院的院長，包括監察院院長、監察委員等獨立行使職權的，不用來立法院，但是要來的只有像秘書長要來，因為他是代表監察院來說明預算、法案，所以這個事情，像在今天是處理法案，所以秘書長必須來，這種很嚴謹的權力分立原則，五院院長你可以隨便來，五院院長我們自己越俎代庖說你們把你們的院長幹掉，送紀律委員會，我剛才講了嘛！只要行政院說傅崐萁親中賣臺，你們立法院一定要把……"],["傅委員崐萁：不要再罵賴清德，跟你講幾次，要教育你幾次……"],["柯委員建銘：你風度好一點……"],["傅委員崐萁：你是說幾遍啊？講完了沒？"],["柯委員建銘：不喜歡聽就出去嘛！沒關係，所以……"],["傅委員崐萁：為什麼他可以……"],["柯委員建銘：所以其他院可以也來指導……"],["主席：兩位總召……"],["柯委員建銘：所以這個道理很清楚啦！"],["主席：兩位總召，對，這樣好不好？就是我們現在先都冷靜一下……"],["柯委員建銘：你不制止他一下？"],["主席：對，所以我說都冷靜一下，柯總召，因為你第二次發言，可不可以簡短，趕快結束？因為後面還有……"],["柯委員建銘：所以大家要想清楚好不好……"],["主席：還有吳思瑤委員。"],["柯委員建銘：黃國昌委員你自己也是法學博士，看大法官釋字第461號，1998就釋出來了。"],["主席：好，謝謝柯總召，接下來請吳思瑤委員，然後下一位是翁曉玲委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：針對這兩個臨時提案，當然等一下會進入表決，但是我們在立法院還是要秉持我們的職責，我要做成發言的紀錄。今天的提案1跟提案2非常清楚的就是一個針對性跟選擇性的政治性提案，針對個案來透過決議的方式，我非常同意個別的委員你對於個別的個案提出你的看法、觀點，你可以利用你個人質詢的時間為之，大家互相尊重。但是因為今天這兩個提案都是要透過司法及法制委員會的共同決定，這當然就不可不慎啦！以多數然後就硬要把不適宜成為提案的案由，然後成為提案強行通過，我要再次說明我非常不認同這個說法。","就提案1的部分，我覺得這個很清楚的是一再地針對個人性，就陳菊院長有沒有在你所指涉的去年12月30號當天，他有沒有去助選，相關當事人第一個就是陳菊院長，他很清楚地說他是去教會訪友；第二個、被影射被助選的當事人，現在也是我們立法院的同事，他也很清楚的，他當天沒有在場，一個候選人沒有在場的場子可以被說成是替候選人造勢助選，所以相關當事人都清楚地澄清了，而且當下在那個教會也沒有被拍到任何助選相關的行為，看到黑影就開槍，隨便亂開槍，然後今天在這裡提案，當事人的澄清都一再地視而不見，這種積非成是，我實在非常沒有辦法容忍這種行徑，如果黃國昌委員你這麼有正義感，建議你針對你們主席所涉入的京華城的案子、士北科的案子，或者是台智光的案子，是不是更應當去徹查呢？你的正義會轉彎，你的正義是有選擇性的。","就提案2的部分，我更認為期期以為不可啊！立法委員怎麼可以針對個案去左右、阻撓監委的辦案、查案呢？我們司法及法制委員會讓我覺得非常遺憾是我們一再地看到委員利用質詢，好，我尊重每個人質詢的時間，可是我們在質詢時間有多少委員針對個案要求給我查、給我查，你查得不夠，再查，都在左右個案，結果今天監委也不過是行使他的職權，而且這個查案、辦案的結果是什麼都還不知道，我們要尊重監委的職權嘛！現在不准人家查，這就是你們的預設立場，這完全就是邏輯的矛盾，你每天在司法及法制委員會叫別人查什麼案，查得不滿你的意要繼續查，你就是在說別人是在掩護、是在護航，現在監委立了一個案，依他的職權行使，你限制人家查案，我從來沒有看過這麼……真的立委再大也不能夠去叫監委往東就往東、往西就往西，我們立法院不是習近平，我們立法院不是這種大家在人民大會堂被中國叫著往左走、往左走，往右走、往右走，我再一次說，立法委員的職權不能這樣濫權、濫用，嚴格地，我嚴謹地、嚴肅地反對這兩個臨時提案。"],["主席：謝謝，我們接下來請翁曉玲委員。"],["翁委員曉玲：是的，我剛剛聽到民進黨委員的發言讓我有時空錯置的感覺，為什麼在先前的8年裡面你們不都是這麼做嗎？現在我們不過就是……"],["沈委員發惠：哪一件事情？"],["吳委員思瑤：哪一案？"],["翁委員曉玲：好，我現在講一下，在2018年民進黨立委段宜康在5月24號他主持司法及法制委員會的時候，他同時就指出要質詢監察院院長張博雅，當時說是有替什麼嘉義市的議員候選人站台合照，而且還當面向監察院秘書長傅孟融要求，並且將這個提案提報到監察院的紀律委員會，段宜康委員不是有這麼做嗎？質詢跟提案的意思……"],["吳委員思瑤：當然不一樣啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：這個不是說不一樣，這代表說立法委員其實都同樣有這樣的權利，提案基本上是每個委員都有這樣的權利，而且更何況今天這兩個提案基本上也是回到監察院，請監察院自己要去針對院長還有監察委員有沒有失職的部分進行調查，這有什麼不可以？這難道不是立法院應該要監督監察院的一個很重要的職權嗎？"],["沈委員發惠：立法院不能監督監察院……"],["翁委員曉玲：但是我們是代表民意，我們希望監察院能夠自己約束自己監察委員的行為，這也是我一再強調，現在監察院監察委員自律規範的法律位階不夠，應該要比照像是立法院行為法，要提升它的法律位階，那麼我想這個案子大家已經討論很久了，是不是可以請主席直接就這兩個提案進行表決？謝謝。"],["主席：好，聽起來雙方共識差距太大，我們就直接進行表決好了，我們現在先清點人數。現在先處理臨時提案第1案，我們現在進行表決，採舉手表決制，表決前請先清點在場出席委員的人數。","（清點人數）"],["主席：好，在場出席委員12位，我們現在開始進行表決，贊成者請舉手。","（進行表決）"],["沈委員發惠：哪一案？"],["主席：第1案，現在在處理第1案。好，贊成者6位，請放下。","反對者請舉手。","（進行表決）"],["主席：反對者6位，請放下。","表決結果：在場出席委員12人，贊成6位、反對6位，贊成者與反對者同數，依據委員會組織法第十條規定，出席委員過半數決議，可否同數時取決於主席。","現在主席表示贊成，所以表決結果為在場出席委員13人，贊成7人、反對6人，本案贊成者多數，通過。","我們接下來處理第2案……"],["柯委員建銘：插話一下，主席……"],["主席：等一下，第2案的提案委員有無補充說明？我們先補充說明完再大家討論。"],["羅委員智強：我的補充說明是幫我們的柯總召來說，因為我是非常欣賞柯總召經常都有智慧之語，他剛剛在前面階段針對提案1說這不是政治鬥爭，什麼是政治鬥爭，說得實在太好了！這個提案真的是真心奉勸民進黨，高涌誠真的太離譜了，這麼多年來政治鬥爭已經到了無以復加的地步，民進黨完全就無視這個政治鬥爭的一個……你說監察院，要把它批評東廠，最大的禍首之一就是高涌誠。段宜康的曲棍球案，請問他是不是在干涉司法？然後，被民進黨認證2022年敗選的戰犯林智堅，連民進黨都不敢幫他背書，他跑去查被害人余正煌。現在放著這麼多的案子不查，而去追殺侯友宜。所以我直接說，今天我們也希望建請監察院能夠把已經是完全地做政治追殺、政治鬥爭打手的高涌誠，以自律機制來移請調查，以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝。那我們現在……"],["柯委員建銘：不讓我說明一下？我都舉手了。"],["主席：對，我們現在進行討論。"],["柯委員建銘：好。"],["主席：我們討論每人發言一次，這樣才不會讓會議進行延宕……"],["翁委員曉玲：我們剛剛一起討論……"],["主席：我們剛剛兩案一起……"],["羅委員智強：我建議……"],["柯委員建銘：沒有啦！他要說明嗎？"],["羅委員智強：主席，其實兩案都有……我覺得我們各黨，我的建議、提議啦！就一邊派一個講就好了，一位就好了，那就表決了。總召講完就表決了。總召請。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席！主席！會議詢問。現在由臺下指揮臺上怎麼主持會議嗎？"],["主席：不是啦！你們每個人都可以……你們每一個人都可以提建議出來啦！"],["羅委員智強：我建議啊！我建議啊！不然……主席，他這樣講，我接受啦！我提案停止討論表決啦！"],["主席：每個人都可以……"],["柯委員建銘：來不及了啦！"],["羅委員智強：不是啊！我已經都尊重柯總召……"],["柯委員建銘：哪有你……提案討論表決啊！"],["羅委員智強：你要剝奪柯總召的發言嗎？對不對？"],["主席：跟各位報告，不是說聽誰指揮啦！剛剛柯總召有意見，我是不是也是說：好，柯總召讓他講嘛！我的立場很簡單，就是讓會議進行順利，所以每個人的發言我覺得有道理就聽，沒有道理我就沒有聽嘛！就這樣嘛！我就是希望議事主持順利而已，好不好？"],["柯委員建銘：你不要擔心啦！他不會翻臺啦！"],["主席：好，那我們現在請柯總召發言。"],["柯委員建銘：主席啊！你應該檢察官出身的吧！對不對？檢察官是不是行使獨立職權？有沒有接受後面指揮？你當主席，竟然羅委員一直在指揮你如何處理程序？你不用回答啦！等我講完嘛！反正等一下你會用行動據以表示你的意見。"],["主席：我聽你的更多啊！"],["柯委員建銘：我簡單講就好。一個監察委員任期內，辦案何其多啊！你找幾個用有色眼光來看待，藉有政治之嫌，就可以來處理他啊！羅智強啊！你用「之嫌」啦！是這樣的嗎？他辦的案很多，有的你看了喜歡啊！有的你不喜歡啊！你要尊重他獨立行使職權嘛！所以這個不是政治鬥爭，什麼才是政治鬥爭呢……給你好不好？"],["主席：好，那鍾召委。對，一次啦！沒關係，我覺得都一次好了，就快一點。"],["鍾委員佳濱：來啦！主席，謝謝委員！我還是覺得可以提醒一下提案委員，今天的質詢因為時間的關係，後半段關於所提到的目前監察院有委員在行使調查，我可以提醒大家，因為這是很善意的提醒，了解提案委員、調查委員的意思，就是為什麼監察院受理人民陳情，他要啟動調查？其實我們都以為是要針對被調查人的責任，去予以進行懲處，其實在本案上擔任這個公務行使的公務員本身，他已經超過了監察院行使調查之後所能夠進行的糾舉或彈劾的時限了。但是對於誰有影響呢？對於當時受這個公務執行者的相對人有影響。","根據我們2022年通過的權利回復條例，當事人要權復會受理這樣的權益侵害，他必須要有一個權威的調查結果。所以我認為，平心而論，大家聽聽看，我知道謝委員有注意在聽我這樣講。本案調查委員的用意未必是要針對被調查者，就是那個涉及可能違法行使公權力的公務員，追溯他的責任，並不是完全是在追究他的責任，而是要確定行使這個公務的執行有傷害到對造人民的權利，以便人民可以根據這樣一個法令的依據──權利回復條例，跟權復會來申請補償，這才是這個調查本身我覺得調查委員的用意。","如果大家可以體察這樣的用意，不要太用政治性的角度來思考，很清楚地，本案就算有公務員違法，他也超過目前監察院行使要對他彈劾的時效性了，所以或許是不是給當時的對造人，就是受害的民眾有機會透過監察院的調查，來申請回復他權利所必要的補償？我覺得這一點，在社會上一直沒有很清楚地被討論，所以提醒大家，我們委員在思考這個提案的時候，要注意到大家的力氣用對地方，以上懇請主席來做一個說明。"],["主席：好，謝謝。請問還有沒有哪位委員要發言？來，吳委員。"],["吳委員思瑤：針對提案2，如果我沒有看錯，這個被調查的對象之一侯友宜市長他很清楚地說，他坦蕩蕩，他也樂於接受調查，所以當事人侯友宜都表達他不害怕接受調查，那不曉得提案的委員在害怕什麼？意圖要去阻卻監委獨立行使他的調查權？","第二個，同一個委員會的委員，我也是不好意思要提醒一下黃國昌委員，你們的柯文哲主席也都說黨團投票可以不用一次進出同樣的表態，黨團民眾黨內部都可以有自由意志的行使，那當然黃國昌總召今天也不一定都要跟著傅崐萁總召走，我是把柯文哲主席說的事情也提醒一下黃總召，希望能夠在一些……對！傅崐萁走了，不在，你也可以行使你的個人意志，我做這個提醒。"],["主席：好，羅委員。"],["鍾委員佳濱：羅委員剛剛不是已經說過了？"],["羅委員智強：我是提案說明啊！對。不要那麼緊張嘛！好不好？"],["主席：還是黃國昌委員要換，還是哪一位先？好，國昌委員。"],["羅委員智強：OK，來。"],["黃委員國昌：我想針對這一個提案本身，它有它一定的射程範圍，但我只想要幫基層的檢察官說幾句話。這個案子我支持，我為什麼支持呢？一個立委公開指控曲棍球協會理事長涉及詐領，檢察官偵辦的結果他不高興，就跑去施壓監察委員，民進黨自己提名的監察委員，然後針對這件事情要啟動調查，到底是誰在破壞監察院獨立行使職權？結果追殺一次還不夠，懲戒法庭已經決議沒有要懲戒，再搞第二次。我把基層檢察官組成的劍青檢改當初的抨擊，在委員會留下紀錄：人權監察院的人權監委為了護航政治勢力，公然追殺、報復承辦個案的基層檢察官，難道監察院是想要殺雞儆猴，讓全國檢察官噤若寒蟬，對政治正確的權貴違法亂紀之事，縮手裝死，服膺新興政治權貴嗎？蔡總統，這就是您一再提名連任的監察委員嗎？","這是當初基層檢察官所提出來的怒吼，我覺得這些基層的檢察官必須要有一個公道還給他們，以上。"],["主席：好，那羅委員還要發言嗎？"],["羅委員智強：完全認同國昌委員的發言。"],["主席：好，謝謝。如果沒有委員要發言的話，我想說，一樣！兩邊的看法還是差距過大，那我們就進行表決好了。","好，臨時提案的第2案，我們現在進行表決，表決是用舉手表決的方式，表決前請先清點在場出席委員人數。","（清點人數）"],["主席：好。在場出席委員12位，現在開始表決。","贊成者請舉手。","（進行表決）"],["主席：好。贊成者6位，請放下。","反對者請舉手。","（進行表決）"],["主席：好。反對者6位，請放下。","在場出席委員12人，贊成6位，反對6位……"],["沈委員發惠：你要不要展現一次你的正義……"],["主席：贊成者與反對者同數……好啦！不要干擾啦！可否同數時取決於主席。","現在主席表示贊成，所以表決結果為在場出席委員13人，贊成者7人，反對者6人，本案贊成者多數，通過。","臨時提案已經處理完畢，現在繼續進行詢答。","接下來請翁曉玲委員進行詢答。"],["翁委員曉玲：改書面。"],["主席：好，翁曉玲委員改書面質詢。","接下來請賴士葆委員進行詢答。賴士葆委員，賴士葆委員。","接下來請王鴻薇委員。王鴻薇委員改書面詢答。","所有登記發言委員均已發言完畢，詢答結束。委員質詢時……"]],"agenda":{"page_end":386,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-36-18","speakers":["吳宗憲","徐巧芯","黃國昌","沈發惠","莊瑞雄","鍾佳濱","陳俊宇","羅智強","林思銘","黃建賓","牛煦庭","吳思瑤","柯建銘","傅崐萁","翁曉玲","王鴻薇"],"page_start":335,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133501_00010"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第18次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查委員徐巧芯等17人擬具「監察院組織法第三條之一及第三條之二條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133501_00017"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.105968750000001,"end":8.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.56471875,"end":14.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.00346875,"end":14.037218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.67846875,"end":16.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.58534375,"end":38.455343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.62409375,"end":46.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.84221875,"end":48.664718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.91784375,"end":54.385343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.95909375,"end":83.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.88284375,"end":88.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.67096875,"end":90.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.5484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對不對?所以這樣子的砍"},{"start":426.418,"end":453.265,"text":"條款要限縮監委的人才的來源我認為這是戴著有色的眼鏡這是有針對性有選擇性而且是不顧監察院的職權行使他甚至就是要癱瘓監察院我這樣說您的理解我剛剛報告的時候說明過監察院最重要的是委員組成的多元性那這樣子的修法會限縮我們的多元性沒有錯謝謝下一頁"},{"start":455.649,"end":477.503,"text":"回到憲政體制我再一次說非常的遺憾司法法制委員會再一次有修法來凌駕憲法就五權分立的憲法運作的原則提名權在行政權就監委的部分是總統提名立法權是行使同意權"},{"start":478.544,"end":480.566,"text":"我剛才說明過了 如果限縮這兩個條款其實相對程度也限縮了總統的提名權"},{"start":504.843,"end":513.809,"text":"總統有提名權 立法院有同意權這是兩個不同的概念所以違憲的條文不要再來了下一頁最後一頁"},{"start":515.522,"end":537.613,"text":"這次還有一個條文就是要把監委行使職權超越黨派看起來講得好像很正面但事實上我認為他是一個規範過檔的修法我們當然認為監察委員需要超出黨派嘛只要他任監委他就要退出政黨的活動不再參與政治活動"},{"start":538.735,"end":554.908,"text":"但是呢現在如果要把它擴大到10年內曾加入政黨或參與任何政治行動活動者不得為監察委員這不就又剝奪了憲法保障的個人的參政自由嗎而且10年是非常過當的一個限制來秘書長請說"},{"start":556.489,"end":582.434,"text":"10年這個集會結社的自由是人民應有的權利那10年前我從沒有辦法預期說我會不會當監察委員我會考慮這個所以有限縮人民集會結社的疑慮那第二個部分是這裡的政治活動其實定義不清楚它的範圍到底到什麼程度參加遊行算不算政治活動參加call in算不算政治活動或是其他那我們這個部分除了"},{"start":583.214,"end":587.617,"text":"政制活動難以定義,而且也抵觸了憲法保障的參政權。最後一項,我也要說有感而發,這發生在立法院,立法院修正我們自己的內規,政府院長要議事中立。"},{"start":613.132,"end":613.152,"text":"﹚吳思瑤"},{"start":632.921,"end":635.703,"text":"那韓國瑜院長跟江啟臣副院長有沒有帶頭作為表率來履行立法院我們職權行使相關法規的議事中立的原則呢?所以要刮尖尾的鬍子之前"},{"start":648.593,"end":669.762,"text":"也要瓜瓜立法委員自己的我做這樣的補充所以最後我還是希望大家理性看待修法立委再大也不能比憲法大立委再大也不能把手伸到監察院裡頭去管東管西而且是過當的管制我希望大家能夠三思好 謝謝秘書長 謝謝主席"}]}},{"id":"151852","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151852","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e69faa896012ee6318656dd8af69baafbe34e2527b10508eeea79a67e68724f7055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"10:52:23 - 11:03:23","影片長度":"00:11:00","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告「退輔會服務照顧及相關救補助精進作為」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-15"},"duration":660,"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:03:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:52:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":442,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（10時52分）謝謝主席，請馮主委。"],["主席：請馮主委。"],["馮主任委員世寬：委員早安。"],["徐委員巧芯：主委早安。抱歉！我有點重感冒，所以跟你的互動上，我的反應可能會比較慢一些，感冒藥吃太多。首先，我非常感謝你在這段期間為中華民國的努力，如果要我來評價所有民進黨政府的官員裡面，我最敬佩的一位就是你。"],["馮主任委員世寬：是，不敢當。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為不管有什麼樣的政治壓力，你總是能夠言你所言，這在政府裡面當官並不是一件容易的事情，尤其我們有很多委員，不分藍綠，提出退輔會應該要檢討的地方，你也都很率直的馬上去辦，我也希望下一任接任退輔會主委的人能夠效法你的精神，讓我們的榮民、榮眷感受到真的受到照顧。"],["馮主任委員世寬：是。"],["徐委員巧芯：首先，我想要請問一下，最近陳建仁院長做了一個指示，他說要在一個月內在軍中研議所謂的轉型正義小組，這個轉型正義小組雖然是在軍中，但是退輔會裡面也有多多少少擺放一些蔣公銅像、蔣公畫像或是蔣公紀念品，這對於軍眷、榮眷來說也有相當的象徵意義，如果未來的轉型正義小組要求退輔會要一併全部拆除的話，請問馮主委，對於這樣子的立場，你持什麼樣的態度呢？"],["馮主任委員世寬：我堅決反對。"],["徐委員巧芯：可以向我們說一下堅決反對的理由嗎？我想社會大眾一定希望知道為什麼我們有這麼多人都反對這樣子的事情。"],["馮主任委員世寬：假如沒有蔣公把黃金、人才跟部隊帶到臺灣來，今天臺灣不會有安定的發展。再講一句，蔣公帶到臺灣來的部隊不是竄逃，而是有計畫性的到這裡來，將臺灣成為復興基地，雖然反攻大陸並沒有執行成功，但是卻把臺灣建設成世界的……譬如說我們現在有護國神山，我們有醫院變成護民的神盾等等這些都是蔣公帶給我們的。假如這一些事實只是看到他在所謂白色恐怖中間抓到許多匪諜加以處置，就認為這是一種殘害，我覺得這是不公平、不正義的，也不是全民所能夠接受的。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝主委，您剛剛講的話讓我非常的感動，因為我的外公也是湖南的老兵，當時1949年跟著中華民國政府軍一起來到臺灣，在八二三炮戰的時候，他也跟著我們的國軍弟兄一起到戰場上，跟他的弟弟兩個人為了臺灣、為了中華民國作戰，最後只生存下一個人，就是我的外公。所以我會覺得這一些退伍的老兵、我們的榮民、榮眷，或許我們現在生活在一個民主國家，我們雖然有兩岸軍事的恫嚇，但是至少都還是在一個和平的範圍裡面，沒有人因為戰爭死去，沒有人因為戰爭的關係造成家破人亡。我的外公雖然他活下來了，但他一輩子都想著他當初沒有保護好弟弟，所以他最後抑鬱而死，這某種程度也造成了我們家庭的傷害。我的爺爺很早很早在我強褓嬰兒的時候，他就離開人世了，因為不堪戰爭後續所帶來的痛苦，所以我們才一直希望兩岸之間，我們要備戰，可是我們也要避戰……"],["馮主任委員世寬：是的。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為不希望像我這樣子的家庭所發生的事情，再發生在其他的家庭上面。"],["馮主任委員世寬：是的。"],["徐委員巧芯：我們希望大家的家庭一輩子以來不需要受到戰火的侵襲，就能夠快快樂樂、平平安安的度過這一生。"],["馮主任委員世寬：謝謝委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：而蔣公他在1949年當時帶領了這麼多的人到了臺灣來，或許有一些族群的衝突，但是隔了這麼多年，我們也看到了族群之間慢慢的融合，很多人是外省的第二代、第三代，也已經沒有再區分了，像以我今年34歲，我的外公是外省湖南常德人，是一名軍人，我的外婆是菸酒公賣局的公務人員，是一名本省人，我爸爸的家族都是客家人，在臺灣年輕一代像這樣子的家庭非常的多，早就已經沒有再區分族群了。"],["馮主任委員世寬：是的。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我也希望未來馮主委，我很感佩你對於蔣公在現在這個好像政府都要把轉型正義當成是第一要務的同時，你願意把自己的主張大聲地講出來，我也希望如果有下一任的退輔會主委，他也能夠像你一樣做這麼清楚的表述，因為對於這些榮民跟榮眷來說，這是對他們的生活、對他們的信仰非常非常重要的一塊，希望主委是不是在您到時候人選接替的時候，也能夠將這樣子的主張向下一任的主委傳遞下去？"],["馮主任委員世寬：是的，我會的。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝。另外，我想跟您討論一下單身退員宿舍的部分，最近在臺北市信義區，總共有243位的退員遺孀，其中有67人正被國防部聲請民事訴訟排占中，雖然是單身退舍，但時空背景不同，過去的執法比較鬆散，所以後續雖然是單身退舍，但是卻有不少的遺孀住在裡面，能夠遷移的，我們作為民代也很積極的協助，但是權責上土地是軍備局、退舍是政戰局、退員是屬於退輔會、遺孀則是由臺北市社會局在協助，我不曉得未來退輔會有沒有可能一起幫忙？因為現在的情況就是這些遺孀不願意搬遷，不願意搬遷的結果，他們會受到很多的法律上的要求，甚至他未來要返還一些價金，如果退輔會未來也可以針對這一些所謂的舊的單身退舍中沒有移出的人一起幫忙的話，是不是就可以讓國防部在這件事情的處理速度上有所提升，這一點是很希望退輔會可以一起加入幫忙。"],["馮主任委員世寬：是的，我覺得我們已經在處理這些事情了。"],["曹處長東發：委員好，我是服務照顧處處長，針對退舍的這些遺眷，我們有很積極的在協助他們轉介到我們相關的一些社福機構，但是因為他們都不願搬走，最主要就是說他住在那邊不要錢，連水電都不用付，所以他搬到外面去，他就必須要去面對生活上的一些支出。"],["徐委員巧芯：是。"],["曹處長東發：我們也跟臺北市政府一些相關的社福資源在做鏈接，勸他們一定要搬走，不然的話，會面對法律上的一些問題，我們積極在做。"],["徐委員巧芯：可是就我們知道，每個地方可能不一樣，像在我的選區裡面，大我新舍已經裝設了水電表了，所以他們的水電是要付錢的，不是像您所說的不用付錢。"],["曹處長東發：那是有部分。"],["徐委員巧芯：對，我講的就是大我新舍，因為像這裡，我收到的全部都是來自遺孀的陳情函，當年可能因為這是單身退舍，他們確實有不對的地方，但因為當時執法鬆散，所以那時候他們已經一起住了，可是因為他的先生比他早離開，就要把他們都趕走，他們對於這件事情就覺得很不公平，就是當我先生還在的時候，我們國防部所頒的法令是，好啦，雖然是單身退舍，但是既然你是軍人，就讓你們一起住，等到她的先生一旦死亡以後，就趕著把這些遺孀都趕走，這是讓他們覺得很不舒服的。我今天時間不太夠，希望退輔會這邊可以再來跟我們看看要怎麼樣一起協助這些遺孀，讓他們在一個平和的、能夠受到幫助的方式下找到屬於自己的家，也能夠讓我們國防部應該要執行的業務能夠完成，可以嗎？"],["馮主任委員世寬：可以。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，謝謝主委。"],["主席：謝謝徐委員，我們現在休息10分鐘。","休息（11時3分）","繼續開會（11時13分）"],["主席：繼續開會。","現在處理臨時提案，請議事人員宣讀臨時提案。","依據「全國軍公教員工待遇支給要點」及行政院人事行政總處2017年7月3日總處給字第10600502952號函規定退伍軍職人員子女教育補助費發給對象，目前僅補助退除役軍官領俸子女教補費發放對象仍維持中校（含士官）以下，私立大學每學年7萬1,600元；公立大學每學年2萬7,200元。","另行政院於2023年底通過教育部「拉近公私立學校學雜費差距及其配套措施方案」，自2024年2月新學期開始後補助私立大專院校生學費每學年3萬5千元；公立大學則視家庭所得狀況而定，最高每學年2萬元、最低每學年1萬5千元。上述輔導會與教育部的方案，只能擇優其一方案請領補助。","鑒於政府補助公私立大學學費之德政，退伍軍人學費補助與政府補助公私立大學學費間差距大幅減少，在行政院整體預算支出不增加的情形下，建請輔導會有關上校階以上領俸人員子女教補費之事，應積極研議並爭取，以促進退伍袍澤權益。","提案人：王定宇　　羅美玲　　陳冠廷　　沈伯洋　　洪申翰　　林楚茵　　馬文君　　黃　仁　　徐巧芯　　林憶君"],["主席：請問提案委員需不需要說明？退輔會對於提案內容有沒有意見？"],["馮主任委員世寬：沒有意見。"],["主席：其實很欣慰看到王定宇召委提這個案子，因為這個案子在108年、109年、110年國民黨黨團其實也都陸續有提案，也都有通過，可是一直都還沒有辦法落實執行，所以我們也希望這部分在這一次大家都有共識的情況之下，尤其教育部也編列了一些相關的補助，可以儘早通過，推動執行，我相信這樣袍澤會更有感，所以這個部分，我們希望大家可以力促讓它趕快通過。"],["王委員定宇：主席……"],["主席：請王定宇委員。"],["王委員定宇：主席，我就說明一下，第一個時空背景的不同，來自於行政院宣布要補助私立大學每學年三萬五千元，另外公立大學兩萬多，在這個基礎下，我們來計算那個差額，它的差距就縮小了，因為這個新的變數，所以我們期待今天這個提案通過之後，馮主委可以和我們一起來跟人事總處溝通協調，就是當國家把私立大學的學費補助拉高了，把公立大學的補助也拉高了，那原來對於退伍軍人上校以上職級的補助，距離就沒有那麼遠，在這種狀況下，我們應該可以把它納入，在總體預算增加不多的狀況下，就是有一個背景，跟前兩年的差異在這裡。我們也很高興這一次提案本委員會所有委員大概都連署了，我們可以一起努力來把這個案子落實下來。"],["主席：這個案子當然有背景的不同，不過對於袍澤的照顧，我相信不是預算的多寡，而是他應不應該被照顧，如果是這樣的情況之下，我們也希望這個可以趕快通過，因為在過去跟現在他們對國家的付出是一致的。就這個部分，如果退輔會還有所有委員沒有異議，本提案照案通過，謝謝。","接下來繼續詢答，請吳思瑤委員、吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在。","請楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","請蘇清泉、蘇清泉、蘇清泉委員不在。","請鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐委員不在。","請羅智強、羅智強、羅智強委員不在。","請邱志偉委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":308,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-15","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","王定宇","黃仁","陳永康","林楚茵","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","洪申翰","徐巧芯","邱志偉","林憶君","賴士葆","羅智強"],"page_start":267,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133501","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133501_00008"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國軍退除役官兵輔導委員會主任委員馮世寬報告「退輔會服務照顧及相關救補助精進作\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有243位的退員遺孀其中有67人正在被國防部申請民事訴訟排站中雖然是單身退社但時空背景不同過去的執法比較鬆散"},{"start":466.374,"end":478.262,"text":"所以後續呢雖然是單身退社但是卻有不少的遺孀住在裡面那能夠遷移的我們也作為民代很積極的協助但是呢"},{"start":479.488,"end":506.391,"text":"全責上土地是軍備局退社是政戰局退員是屬於退輔會遺孀則是由臺北市社會局在協助那我不曉得未來退輔會有沒有可能一起幫忙因為現在的情況就是這些遺孀他不願意搬遷不願意搬遷的結果他們會受到很多的一些法律上面甚至他未來要返還他的這個"},{"start":508.012,"end":509.913,"text":"是的,我覺得我們已經在處理這些事情了"},{"start":534.902,"end":554.284,"text":"委員好我是服務照顧處處長那麼針對我們退社的這些遺卷我們有很積極的在協助他們要轉介到我們相關的一些社福的一些機構但是因為他們都不願搬走最主要就是說他住在那邊他不要錢他連水電都不用付"},{"start":555.064,"end":580.769,"text":"所以說他搬到外面去他就必須要去面對他生活上的一些支出我們也跟台北市政府的一些相關的社福資源在做鏈接勸他們一定要搬走不然的話會面對這個法律上的一些問題每個地方可能不一樣像在我的選區裡面大我新社已經裝設了水電表了所以他們的水電是要付錢的"},{"start":581.229,"end":609.199,"text":"不是像您所說的那個是有部分對對對我講的就是在大我新社因為像這裡我收到的這個全部都是來自遺孀的陳秦涵我們不希望就是說他當年可能這是單身退社他們確實有不對的地方但因為當時的執法鬆散所以那時候他們已經一起住了可是因為他的先生比他早離開之後就要把他們都趕走了"},{"start":609.719,"end":635.012,"text":"他們對於這件事情就覺得很不公平就是說當我先生還在的時候我們國防部所頒的法令是好啦雖然是單身退社但是既然你是軍人就讓你們一起住但等到他的先生軍人一旦死亡以後就趕著把這一線遺裝都趕走這個是讓他們覺得很不舒服的那我今天時間不太夠"},{"start":635.812,"end":656.877,"text":"那是不是希望後續退輔會這邊可以再來跟我們看看我們要怎麼樣一起協助這些遺孀讓他們在一個平和的能夠受到幫助的方式上面找到他們屬於自己的家也能夠讓我們國防部應該要執行的業務能夠完成可以嗎可以好謝謝主委是好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151851","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151851","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6b06a2892b6db5924055d9f022d149edd34e2527b10508eee5a269d54d767ffee5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王正旭","委員發言時間":"10:53:54 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11:01:23","影片長度":"00:07:29","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【以上議案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"duration":449,"end_time":"2024-04-29T11:01:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:53:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":874,"blocks":[["王委員正旭：（10時54分）謝謝主席，有請薛部長。"],["主席：好，請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["王委員正旭：部長好。今天的題目真的很沉重，在開始今天相關的議題之前，有一個部分還是請部長再確認一下，就是有關於衛福部修正居家托育訪視指引的部分，因為這部分也提到針對兒虐個案的問題，目前是針對低年齡、發展遲緩、安置出養童這三類全日托兒童，以及包括負擔重、曾有不當對待這兩類保母，訪視頻率要從4次提高到6次，如果依照現在的數據來看的話，到底全日托統計人數差不多有多少？目前居服中心訪視人員的人力是否可以足夠因應？做過這部分調整以後如果能夠有足夠人力，包括他們的教育訓練是否能夠迅速地提升？因為看起來，5月1號就要上路，5月1號就是後天。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。這部分也有跟地方都討論過，一起開會做了這個決定，在人力方面，目前應該經過地方社會局確認，所以應該是沒有問題。"],["王委員正旭：是，在教育訓練部分……"],["薛部長瑞元：教育訓練部分的話，事實上最重要的是我們還有一個工作要做，就是要發展出來去訪視的時候的指引，就是一些check list、要看什麼樣的東西，這個部分會是更有效的教育訓練。"],["王委員正旭：我們希望能夠確實落實，不然的話，到時候就很可惜，增加了人力，可是沒辦法把事情做好。","再過來就是有關於兒少性影像的問題，我們也知道，透過今天大家共同的想法，還有要求、希望趕快把這個條例能夠儘快經過腦力激盪，同時去把該有的法令做一個適當的修正。針對之前提到要防堵兒少性影像，網路巡查最快兩週內要招標，意思就是5月7號之前就要完成招標，在這個空窗期，我們有沒有更積極或者更適當的作為？有沒有辦法增設申訴管道？有沒有辦法有更好平台的設置？"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分分兩個，第一個，我講的不是兩週內招標，而是兩週內完成招標的文件，完成招標文件出來之後，接下來才有可能去公告、去做招標這樣的動作，所以整個決標可能是要一段時間了，大概一個月跑不掉，這是第一點。","第二點，在這個過渡期，現行機制裡面也是有，網路巡查的目的主要是主動去發現有這種網站類型的，並不是那種單一影片上傳，巡查大概是沒有辦法那麼細緻地去巡查到，主要是網站類型，網站類型就是我們主要的。以目前來講的話，當然會比較困難，不過我們還是要盡力，因為透過一些檢舉，我們還是可以蒐集到一些資料。"],["王委員正旭：是，如果多一點申訴管道，相對就有更多的民眾可以一起來參與，謝謝。再過來就是有關於相關的研究，真的很希望、非常希望主管機關好好把這個事情做好，看到問題，如果沒有研究去支撐、瞭解如何去因應的話，其實我們這些改變可能會很辛苦。","再過來就是有關於源頭杜絕的部分，其實婦女保障基金會曾經統計，這些影像的生成有6成左右可能是自願合意，當然會包括誘騙在裡面，這一部分我們希望能夠把不拍、不傳、不留落實，事實上從源頭去管理，相對這個風險就會低很多，這一部分我們有更好的可行性嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：老實講，現在這種數位性暴力的案件，也就是性影像，已經是占我們整個兒少性剝削的8成以上了，表示這個發展非常地快，重點就是因為它用的是數位方式，數位方式的話，第一個，傳播快；第二個就是要去查很難，閃得非常快。"],["王委員正旭：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以主要要去處理這個，有沒有辦法從源頭去杜絕，要看科技的方式。"],["王委員正旭：好，所以我們真的希望需要有好的研究來看這個事情，謝謝。再過來就是韓國好像做得很徹底，不知道在臺灣這樣的作法會不會有哪一些要注意的地方，我們也期待不管是在法務部或者是在相關單位都能夠瞭解，如果需要這樣做的話，會有多少的影響。","最後的部分，比較要注意的就是這兩天收到一個訊息，有關美國在OK繃上面驗出了可能會有致癌風險的物質，在這個部分也麻煩衛福部可以開始去瞭解這樣的狀況，對於很常用的、可能跟我們身體接觸的這些物質對於民眾健康的影響，就麻煩部長再注意。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個PFAS現在主要是對於環境的傷害，比較多的是在這個部分，對於人體部分的話，目前可能研究還相當有限，還沒有辦法很正面地去證實它對人體會造成什麼樣的影響。"],["王委員正旭：是、是，因為美國自己有注意到這一方面的問題，所以臺灣如果使用量相對多的話，也就要麻煩大家多留意。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們會持續注意。"],["王委員正旭：好，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席（蘇委員清泉代）：謝謝王委員，謝謝部長。","繼續請王育敏委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":356,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1","speakers":["王育敏","黃捷","蘇清泉","郭昱晴","葛如鈞","陳冠廷","李坤城","許宇甄","沈伯洋","王世堅","陳菁徽","王美惠","王鴻薇","張雅琳","何欣純","范雲","林思銘","林月琴","陳昭姿","廖偉翔","劉建國","黃國昌","林淑芬","陳俊宇","王正旭","邱鎮軍","黃秀芳","張嘉郡","楊瓊瓔","陳瑩","鍾佳濱","吳思瑤","陳亭妃","林宜瑾","吳沛憶","陳培瑜","李彥秀","蔡易餘","莊瑞雄","楊曜","盧縣一","涂權吉","羅智強","黃仁","沈發惠","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":131,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一\n條條文修正草案」案；二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十\n九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案；三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例\n第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案；六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年\n性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案；七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童\n及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削\n防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分\n條文修正草案」案；十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之\n一條文草案」案；十一、委員李坤城等 22 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案；十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」\n案；十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案；十\n四、委員廖偉翔等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草\n案」案；十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草\n案」案；十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；十\n七、委員黃建賓等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草\n案」案；十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修\n正草案」案；十九、委員王世堅等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」\n案；二十、委員陳菁徽等 16 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十\n一、委員王美惠等 18 人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二十\n二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十三、委員王鴻薇\n等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬\n具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案；\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案；二\n十六、委員鍾佳濱等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十七、委\n員何欣純等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案；\n二十八、委員劉建國等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；二十九、\n委員柯志恩等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十、委員陳素月\n等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十一、委員范雲等17人擬具\n「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十二、委員林俊憲等21人擬具「兒童及\n少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十三、委員林思銘等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝\n削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案；三十四、委員張雅琳等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條\n例部分條文修正草案」案；三十五、委員陳培瑜等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條\n文修正草案」案；三十六、委員林月琴等21人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草\n案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.35846875,"end":11.219093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.961593750000002,"end":12.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.767218750000001,"end":14.745968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.63971875,"end":29.730968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.304718750000003,"end":60.03846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.22409375,"end":62.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.345968750000004,"end":89.72159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.39659375000001,"end":99.57659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.31909375000001,"end":103.86284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.06534375000001,"end":110.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.22471875000001,"end":111.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.95034375,"end":113.12721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.97534375000001,"end":116.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.72159375000001,"end":133.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.65284375,"end":125.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.83284375,"end":142.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.37659375,"end":137.64659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.58659375000002,"end":161.52471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.01409375,"end":167.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.48159375,"end":178.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.14221875,"end":189.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.73221875000002,"end":184.06971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.39784375000002,"end":243.87471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.24596875,"end":257.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.67846875000004,"end":307.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.86659375,"end":269.20409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.65534375000004,"end":271.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.81409375000004,"end":310.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.90221875000003,"end":312.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.77534375000005,"end":323.13659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.45721875000004,"end":326.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":326.44409375000004,"end":337.21034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.65346875,"end":337.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.21034375000005,"end":337.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.81784375,"end":341.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":337.90221875000003,"end":338.22284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.72471875,"end":340.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.53034375000004,"end":349.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":350.08596875,"end":359.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.58659375,"end":404.32221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":404.50784375,"end":412.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.06784375,"end":426.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":426.93471875,"end":433.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":427.06971875000005,"end":427.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":434.05596875000003,"end":445.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.10534375000003,"end":442.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.71284375000005,"end":444.24846875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.697,"end":14.423,"text":"謝謝主席。有請薛部長。好,請薛部長。"},{"start":19.693,"end":41.51,"text":"委員好 部長好今天的題目真的很沉重在開始今天相關的議題之前有一個部分還是請部長再確認一下就是有關於衛福部修正居家托育防治指引的部分因為這部分也提到說針對兒童個案的問題"},{"start":43.391,"end":60.537,"text":"議員黃捷等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。議員黃捷等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。議員黃捷等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。議員黃捷等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。議員黃捷等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防"},{"start":61.937,"end":89.476,"text":"那如果依照現在的數據來看的話,到底有這個全入托統計的人數會差不多有多少?那目前我們這個居福中心防制人員的人力是否可以足夠來應應?做過這個部分的調理以後,能夠有足夠的人力,包括他們的教育訓練是否能夠迅速的提升?因為看起來5月1號就要上路,5月1號就是後天,是。"},{"start":90.836,"end":115.669,"text":"這部分是因為也有跟地方那都討論過了一起開會做的這個決定那在人力方面的話那目前應該是經過這個地方的這個社會局確認的所以應該是沒有問題在教育訓練部分教育訓練的部分的話事實上"},{"start":116.81,"end":142.664,"text":"最重要的是我們還有一個工作要做就是要發展出來去訪視的時候的這個要對一些指引就一些check in list要看什麼樣的東西那這個部分的話會是更有效的一個教育訓練是我們希望能夠確實的落實不然的話到時候就很可惜增加人力可是沒辦法把事情做好"},{"start":143.504,"end":143.764,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":162.079,"end":167.821,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":191.021,"end":219.062,"text":"這部分我還分兩個,第一個我講的不是兩週內那個招標,是兩週內去完成招標的文件。那完成招標文件出來之後的話,那接下來才有可能就是說去公告、去做招標這樣的一個動作。所以整個決標可能是要一段時間,大概一個月大概跑不掉,這是第一點。"},{"start":219.962,"end":243.784,"text":"第二點,在這個過渡期,現行的機制裡面也是有。現在網路巡查的目的是主要主動去發現有這種網站類型的,並不是那種單一的影片上傳。那個大概巡查沒有辦法那麼細緻的去巡查到,主要是網站類型的。"},{"start":244.324,"end":272.748,"text":"那網站類型的話那是我們主要的那以目前來講的話當然會比較困難那不過我們還是要盡力啦因為透過一些檢舉我們還是可以收集到一些資料是如果多一點申訴管道相對就有更多的原眾可以一起來參與謝謝那再過來就是有關於相關的研究真的很希望非常希望主管機關好好的來把這個事情做好"},{"start":273.248,"end":295.103,"text":"看到問題如果沒有研究去支撐如何去因應的話其實我們這些改變可能會很辛苦那再過來就是有關於這個源頭杜絕的部分那其實婦女保障基金會曾經統計有六成左右這些影像的生成可能是自願合一當然會包括右邊在裡面"},{"start":295.864,"end":309.626,"text":"這一部分如果我們希望能夠把這個不拍、不傳、不留這樣能夠落實的話事實上從源頭去管理相對這個風險就會低很多。這一部分我們有更好的可行性嗎?"},{"start":311.593,"end":325.722,"text":"這當然呢,老實講現在這種世衛性暴力的案件,也就是性影像的這一個的話,已經是佔我們整個兒少剝削的、性剝削的八成以上了。那表示說這個發展非常的快。"},{"start":326.542,"end":349.566,"text":"那重點就是說因為他用的是數位方式數位方式的話那第一個傳播快那第二個的話就是要去查要去查很難那閃的非常快所以主要要去處理這個沒有辦法從源頭去杜絕的話要看科技的方式"},{"start":350.126,"end":371.851,"text":"好,所以我們是真的希望需要有好的研究來看這個事情,好,謝謝。再過來就是韓國他們好像做得很徹底,那不知道在台灣這樣的做法會不會有哪一些的一些遙遙在注意的地方,那我們也期待不管是在法務部或者是在相關單位,"},{"start":372.711,"end":372.871,"text":"閱讀者們的意見"},{"start":387.817,"end":397.145,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":413.079,"end":433.542,"text":"PFAS現在主要是對於環境的傷害,比較多的是在這部分。那對於人體的部分的話,目前可能研究還相當有限,還沒有辦法說很正面的去證實說它對人體會造成什麼樣的影響。"},{"start":434.282,"end":443.531,"text":"是是,這是因為美國自己有注意到這方面的問題齁,所以台灣如果說使用量相對多的話,也就要麻煩大家多了解。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151850","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151850","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6be052ea4142b14a85b40abc3f7af24af34e2527b10508eee62e983eb939d23355ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"10:48:18 - 10:55:01","影片長度":"00:06:43","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。\n\n備註：4月29日（星期一）、5月1日(星期三)【兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":403,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:55:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:48:18+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":779,"blocks":[["李委員柏毅：（10時48分）謝謝，我們請花次跟署長。"],["主席：有請花次跟鐘署長。"],["花次長敬群：委員好。"],["李委員柏毅：謝謝次長。上個禮拜本來要跟你討論一些住宅的政策，今天馬上就是跟你討論這個部分，我覺得有一點點移民政策的味道，但是是為了新住民的權益來討論這個新住民的基本法或者是權益法，我們來就這個部分就教，因為包含民進黨團裡面羅美玲委員跟蘇巧慧委員分別也都有提出，剛才蘇巧慧委員也有說她有被你說服，包含民眾黨黨團跟國民黨黨團其實都有提出，代表臺灣這個社會上對於新住民的存在、他們的權益或他們的基本權益，是不是應該要在我們這邊來做一個嚴肅的討論？"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["李委員柏毅：但是我們先就身分這一點來討論，有很多委員的版本，到底現在在臺灣新住民的人口有多少、我們要怎麼定義、未來這個新住民基本法或者是新住民權益法保障到多少人，我們先來做一個討論，剛剛花次也有具體的提到移工不應該是屬於這一次新住民討論的範圍。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["李委員柏毅：我想要跟你討論的是，我們再深入一點討論，比如說在我的選區楠梓產業園區旁邊，包含很多的電子廠，楠梓區有幾個社區，我們整條路上都是寫外國字，都是外國的文字，全部都是為外國移工服務的商店，甚至是我們的政府單位，就像剛剛很多委員在講的，比如說有新住民媽媽去到區公所或者是上網沒有看到那些表格，其實在我們楠梓區那些地方的服務非常的好。那我們政府要做的是什麼？大家希望的是什麼？比如說，新住民媽媽或新住民家庭去到區公所，他需要什麼樣的服務、我們可以給予什麼樣的服務，包含語言、文字、表格等等，花次，這是不是我們未來要精進的方向？"],["花次長敬群：對，其實委員講的很核心的重點就是生活，就是在生活上面我們要怎麼樣讓他們便利，讓他們覺得沒有太多的隔閡、覺得被尊重，關於這個部分，其實像剛剛講的通譯的精進制度，我們提升通譯的費用……"],["李委員柏毅：不夠嘛！"],["花次長敬群：要去強化，相關的表格，甚至公所、戶所、地政事務所等等……"],["李委員柏毅：還是不夠，再進一步講，比如說他們有很多辛酸，像其他委員都有收到一些陳情，在他們遇到緊急狀況的時候想要打電話，可是要打去哪裡？有沒有人可以隨時協助？"],["花次長敬群：我們有1990是24小時、7種語言都在服務當中。"],["李委員柏毅：在他們入境的時候都已經有做這些相關的宣導，但是還要加強啦！"],["花次長敬群：是，當然。"],["李委員柏毅：今天的目的就是跟你們說還要加強。"],["花次長敬群：謝謝委員。"],["李委員柏毅：我最後再跟花次討論一個有趣的議題，就是面對少子化、面對高房價，少子化跟高房價很奇怪、很弔詭，都是反方向，但是少子化有一個部分，我知道目前教育部已經在推動，可能會有一些來自於東南亞甚至其他國家的學生進入我們的高中、大學，並且放寬他們可以建教的時數，未來他們可能會進入移民署移民政策的範圍之內。花次，請問你對這一個政策方向的看法？"],["花次長敬群：我想透過在臺灣受教育進而跟臺灣社會相融合，這是一個很棒的移民切入的角度。"],["李委員柏毅：所以很可能這個方向我們在未來幾年會繼續來進行？"],["花次長敬群：我尊重教育部，因為這個部分不是我們內政部的，當然教育部有他們的想法……"],["李委員柏毅：但是你說是很棒的移民政策。"],["花次長敬群：我覺得很好，這是很棒的。"],["李委員柏毅：我也覺得很好，這個我們也會樂觀其成，會繼續的來推動、會繼續的看有什麼方式可以來推動，大量引進大概在高中、大學階段各國優秀的人才可以進入到臺灣，變成臺灣未來的高階人才，這個是我們可以一起來努力的方向。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["李委員柏毅：最後，目前我們對於中國新住民或者是美國、英國、日本等新住民的高階學歷認證，時間暫停一下，我們請教育部終身教育司的司長還有外交部的條約法律司，謝謝。"],["主席：好，也請教育部，今天教育部……"],["李委員柏毅：有，終身教育司。"],["主席：好，請終身教育司司長，謝謝。"],["李委員柏毅：來，我簡述一下，我快速的說明一下我的問題，就是目前包含中國跟美、英的新住民，他們來到臺灣，關於他們的學歷認證，對於中國以及美、日、德等我們其實是直接發函給我們的外使單位，就可以獲得認證，但是很多來自東南亞包含泰國、越南、緬甸等國家的人無法獲得這個服務，那我們有沒有相關可以協助的地方？"],["李司長毓娟：我請我們的高教司來說明。"],["李委員柏毅：好。"],["周專門委員弘偉：報告委員，除了大陸的部分我們教育部高教司這邊有委託學校來進行學歷採認這件事情之外，外國的部分，我們都是由各大學他們來辦理學歷採認這個事情。"],["李委員柏毅：好，我要講的就是東南亞很多國家也需要我們這樣相關的服務，請教育部跟外交部也要做相關的聯繫……"],["周專門委員弘偉：報告委員，我們對所有的國家，包含東南亞還有歐美國家，我們都會提供這樣的服務，沒有問題。"],["李委員柏毅：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝柏毅委員的質詢。謝謝次長跟署長還有教育部的代表。","我們現在休息5分鐘，待會繼續開會，謝謝。","休息（10時55分）","繼續開會（11時）"],["主席：我們現在開始質詢，大家都回到位子上了嗎？好，請鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱、鍾佳濱委員不在。","請張智倫委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":448,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","丁學忠","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","羅美玲"],"page_start":345,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新\n住民權益保障法草案」案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(三)審查委\n員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」\n案、( 五) 審查委員蘇巧慧等 26 人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案；二、繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1133601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.41034375,"end":4.570343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.4772187500000005,"end":7.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.485343750000002,"end":9.059093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.19409375,"end":14.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.062843750000003,"end":12.653468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.26909375,"end":29.47784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.10346875,"end":22.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.58846875,"end":23.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.680343750000002,"end":40.362218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.58159375,"end":40.95284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.03721875,"end":60.055343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.71409375,"end":56.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.73034375,"end":80.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.03096875,"end":87.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.12721875000001,"end":86.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.79784375,"end":98.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.60784375,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.49659375,"end":102.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.56346875000001,"end":103.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.91784375,"end":102.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.38596875,"end":106.59659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.79909375000001,"end":109.51596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.71846875000001,"end":112.89096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.14409375000001,"end":118.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.96596875,"end":119.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.45096875,"end":121.39596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.76721875000001,"end":122.22284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.44221875000001,"end":128.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.66909375,"end":129.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.23846875,"end":138.06846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.33846875,"end":139.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.94159375,"end":140.19471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.20721875,"end":142.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.26596875,"end":145.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.32034375,"end":148.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.49721875,"end":149.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.20159375,"end":156.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.17096875000001,"end":157.64346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.28471875,"end":163.07721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.77346875,"end":180.84659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.61096875,"end":178.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.47534375,"end":200.01659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.11659375000002,"end":182.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":198.27846875,"end":203.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.41721875000002,"end":207.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.57284375,"end":210.34409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.67784375000002,"end":208.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.29784375000003,"end":215.86221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.68909375,"end":221.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.27471875,"end":223.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.50659375,"end":224.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.87346875,"end":225.91971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.12221875,"end":227.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.55659375000002,"end":228.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.65346875,"end":238.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.86284375000002,"end":248.66721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.17346875,"end":255.77159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.63659375,"end":259.60221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.94409375000004,"end":265.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.62721875,"end":272.39346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.68034375,"end":288.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.88096875,"end":285.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.33596875,"end":292.52534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.58846875,"end":300.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.49034375,"end":307.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.52721875000003,"end":309.11346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.66596875000005,"end":311.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":313.83846875,"end":314.95221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":316.87596875,"end":317.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.44534375,"end":319.62659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.91346875,"end":321.3984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及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住"},{"start":104.417,"end":104.737,"text":"案。 審查委員"},{"start":120.555,"end":128.977,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案件"},{"start":143.308,"end":157.391,"text":"大家希望什麼 希望說 比如說這個新住民媽媽或新住民家庭他去到 去公所 他需要什麼樣的服務的時候我們可以給予什麼樣的服務包含語言"},{"start":158.385,"end":159.085,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":181.331,"end":210.229,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等21人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":210.669,"end":237.514,"text":"我想最後再跟花次討論一個有趣的議題就是面對少子化、面對高房價少子化跟高房價很奇怪、很弔詭都反方向但是少子化有一個目前我知道教育部已經在推動可能高中、大學都會有一些可能我們會來自東南亞甚至其他國家的學生進來我們大學並且放寬他們可以建教的時數"},{"start":238.954,"end":248.586,"text":"未來它可能是我們移民署的可能會進入我們這個移民政策的範圍之一花次請問你對這一個政策方向的看法"},{"start":249.229,"end":265.074,"text":"我想透過在台灣受教育進而跟台灣社會相融合這是一個很棒的移民切入的角度所以很可能這個方向我們在未來幾年會繼續來進進我尊重教育部因為這個部分不是我們內政部的但是你說是很棒的移民政策我也覺得很好這個我們會樂觀其成會繼續的來推動會繼續的看有什麼方式可以來推動"},{"start":272.697,"end":290.036,"text":"案,大量引進可能這個大概在高中大學階段各國優秀的人才可以進入到台灣變成台灣未來的可能是高階人才這個是我們可以一起來努力的方向最後有一個目前我們對於中國的"},{"start":293.632,"end":305.142,"text":"案。 中國新住民或美國、英國、日本等新住民的高階學歷認證。請教育部中生教育司司長及外交部條約法律司。"},{"start":318.922,"end":341.028,"text":"有有有中生教育師師長謝謝來我簡述一下我快速的說明一下我的問題就是說目前包含中國跟美英的這些可能新住民他們來到台灣他們的學歷認證那對於中國以及美日德等"},{"start":341.63,"end":342.331,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":362.189,"end":371.477,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":392.014,"end":397.705,"text":"報告委員我們所有的國家包含東南亞還有歐美國家我們都會提供這樣的服務沒有問題"}]}},{"id":"151849","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151849","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6dfd7c65ecca050fb5b40abc3f7af24af34e2527b10508eee43e8375b369a28fb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"10:39:42 - 10:48:04","影片長度":"00:08:22","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。\n\n備註：4月29日（星期一）、5月1日(星期三)【兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":502,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:48:04+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:39:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":737,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（10時39分）感謝主席，邀請花次長。"],["主席：請花次長。"],["丁委員學忠：次長好。"],["花次長敬群：委員好。"],["丁委員學忠：次長，現在新住民的人口在我們臺灣應該差不多有幾百萬人，根據上個月統計，我們雲林就有將近8,000人，差不多我們全縣人口的1%，這個族群非常重要！而我們虎尾鎮應該是整個雲林人口數第二多的，過去我擔任5年的鎮長，過程中也遇到很多新住民的問題。","這次我們國民黨黨團有提案立法，要求內政部成立一個新住民的委員會，因為現在內政部只有負責一部分的業務，但是新住民子女教育的部分需要教育部來負責；醫療的部分需要衛福部來負責。要是可以像其他的族群一樣，我們成立一個委員會，全部由同一個單位處理，讓他們可以受到更大的照顧。次長，這樣你贊不贊成？"],["花次長敬群：向委員報告，當然不可能每樣事情都由那一個委員會來做，我剛剛也跟別的委員說過，例如原住民委員會也是處理原住民比較核心的事務，他的住宅、教育、文化、社會福利也都是別的部會在處理，意思就是說，現在成立這個委員會是特別要處理新住民的什麼事情？其實我們說清楚一點，誰是新住民？我們也定義清楚一點。"],["丁委員學忠：我現在是要替移民署講一下話，現在整個新住民事務應該都是由移民署來管理。"],["花次長敬群：也不是啦，我們主要是管理日常生活移民事務而已，其實教育、文化、福利部分當然移民署也不可能管那麼多。"],["丁委員學忠：對啦，現在行政院裡面有一個新住民事務協調會，是嗎？"],["花次長敬群：會報。"],["丁委員學忠：在這裡要跟次長說一下，因為這個協調會的職權不夠大，有時候跨部會在協調什麼工作，別的機關也不一定會聽。"],["花次長敬群：沒有啦，跟委員報告，那是行政院的政務委員主持，所以他的權比我們部還要大，他說的話每一個部會都要配合，因為那是代表院長開會，所以那邊的權力其實比一個部會還要大！"],["丁委員學忠：我相信次長認為新住民這部分很具重要性，很多單位就像你說的要跨部會溝通，像你說沒辦法成立一個專責單位，它的主題是什麼？這個部分應該是內政部要去瞭解、思考。新住民的人口數和原住民的人口數其實也差不多了，你知道嗎？而原住民有一個專責的委員會，雖然剛才次長說，這個委員會管轄的部分不一定是新住民而已，或者原民的部分不一定只有原民會在管理。","新住民嫁來臺灣，相對來說也是我們臺灣人啦！我們臺灣人在語言當中有很多糾紛，各國之間的語言都不同，有可能會發生不必要的糾紛。之前我在電視上有看到一個案例，不同國家的人因為言語差異，聽不清楚以為別人在罵自己就打人，這就是差異啦！"],["花次長敬群：當然這種生活的事情我們要處理，我跟委員報告啦，原住民委員會或者客委會是因為那個身分，他世世代代都會是那個身分，但新住民不會是一個世世代代的身分，就像當年我們的祖先唐山過臺灣，但是我們現在不會講我們是唐山人，我們講我們是臺灣人，所以這個身分是會改變的！但是原住民跟客委會這種身分是世世代代都不會變的，所以要成立專責機構還是不要，這就是我們要去關注的一個核心問題。"],["丁委員學忠：唐山過臺灣這是我們的歷史，過去我們的先人……"],["花次長敬群：對，這變成歷史了，不是我們的身分嘛！"],["丁委員學忠：我們不能將過去的歷史自始至終消滅啦！"],["花次長敬群：這不是消滅，這就是我們對這種事情要怎麼看待啦。"],["丁委員學忠：沒關係，我在這裡要再向次長報告一項，剛才我們說到行政院的專責單位要有主題，但我還是要替一些執法單位發聲，就是關於通譯、翻譯人員的問題。新住民人數非常多，而且要跟大家生活一定都會產生一些問題，像我剛才說的語言不一樣，說話他以為在罵人就吵起來了，這個問題常常會發生就代表翻譯的人員不足啦！一旦有問題，在警察局裡面也需要警務翻譯，勞工的問題也要有勞工的翻譯，進到司法院裡面也需要有翻譯，其中牽涉到各部會；此外，這些語言通譯人員不夠對於新住民的權利也有很大的影響。次長，像這樣的情況要怎麼解決？"],["花次長敬群：向委員報告，其實每一個部會甚至我們警政署也有自己的通譯，我們有建立那個系統，因為每一個部會的事務、專業不同，所以它的通譯人才也不能相通，警政跟衛福部的事情不一樣，我們都會彼此建立專屬的通譯人員……"],["丁委員學忠：報告主席，再給我一些時間。"],["花次長敬群：其實這部分都有在做啦！"],["丁委員學忠：你們有一個通譯制度精進試辦計畫嘛，對不對？"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["丁委員學忠：這個計畫只有試辦而已，去年行政院才通過，經費要從哪裡來？"],["花次長敬群：各機關會去編列。"],["丁委員學忠：各單位自己去找或是從移民署的基金出錢。"],["花次長敬群：沒有，這是各機關的業務費用。"],["丁委員學忠：次長，如果沒有比較多經費能補助通譯的問題，要趕快想辦法來解決！這當中我要說明的是，目前的通譯制度還有很多問題，內政部、法務部、司法院等各部會都有自己的通譯管理跟訓練，這些通譯人員的專業都不一定，如果遇到品質不好的或是不熟悉新住民母語的翻譯，他們只能自認倒楣！通譯的薪水也不一定，每一件從幾百塊到幾千塊都有，因為工作不固定而很難留住人才。","在這裡要請內政部具體提出一個方式，應該要由行政院成立專責單位、增加預算補助來處理通譯問題，把優秀的人才留下來；另外，各主管單位的通譯人才培訓也應該要趕快強化、增加好的人才進來！這些事情要請你們趕快啟動，才能夠確保新住民的權益，這樣好不好？"],["花次長敬群：跟委員報告，其實這樣的經費都有增加、他們的薪水也都有增加，這部分我們再來研究看看……"],["丁委員學忠：人才……"],["花次長敬群：是，當然！"],["丁委員學忠：要精進！"],["花次長敬群：感謝！好，再訓練，我們會合作。"],["丁委員學忠：再拜託！謝謝。"],["花次長敬群：謝謝委員。"],["丁委員學忠：謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝丁學忠委員的質詢，謝謝次長，謝謝署長。","繼續我們請李柏毅委員質詢，在李柏毅委員質詢結束之後我們休息5分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":448,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","丁學忠","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","羅美玲"],"page_start":345,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新\n住民權益保障法草案」案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(三)審查委\n員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」\n案、( 五) 審查委員蘇巧慧等 26 人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案；二、繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 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- 10:39:28","影片長度":"00:07:02","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。\n\n備註：4月29日（星期一）、5月1日(星期三)【兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":422,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:39:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:32:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":720,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時32分）謝謝主席，我們請花次長。"],["主席：請花次長。"],["花次長敬群：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：次長好。今天不管是基本法還是權益保障法，我覺得都非常重要，為什麼呢？其實剛剛花次長的答復，大家不是很滿意，你還是太功利導向地說我們要先有解決的事項才來討論要不要有一個完整的基本法，但在國外任何注重人權的國家，早就已經把這樣的基本法訂好了，所以我覺得現在不是還要討論是不是先一條一條列出解決事項才回頭訂這個基本法，這是一個態度的問題。剛剛也有很多人提到臺灣已經有超過60萬新住民，我們新住民成長的速度真的非常快，我看到內政部現在有一個新住民照顧服務措施的政策，可是我拿一個例子來講好了，韓國在2007年就已經訂出外國人處遇基本法，內容包括人權的保障、生活適應的支持、友善的環境還有反歧視，這些重要的規定早就訂在裡面了，每五年他們會提出外國人基本政策的計畫方針，然後趕快隨時調整，達到促進韓國社會的整合目標，而且他們現在已經進到第二期的計畫了。所以我還是再請教一下次長的態度，我們內政部到底支不支持今天來審查不管是新住民基本法還是權益的保障法？"],["花次長敬群：報告委員，其實韓國的法案也一樣是以婚姻、就業跟投資移民為對象，尤其特別針對婚姻移民的部分，所以我覺得這個部分不是不能訂，也不是不能討論，而在於我們現階段對於新住民的定義到底該是如何，甚至要不要實質面到成立專責機構，因為這些事情就會進入到實質，背後就有很多的配套。我跟委員報告，現階段各部會是針對它專業的事情來服務新住民，所謂的專責機構是未來都用那個專責機構來服務新住民的所有事情嗎？我看應該也不是，就像原民會，也不可能原住民的所有事情只由原民會負責，內政部、文化部、教育部都不用負責，不可能！現在的實質面其實各部會也都在做……"],["黃委員捷：我覺得這個組織到底要怎麼劃分都可以在逐條的時候再討論，我現在希望部裡要有一個態度，因為這些原則訂出來是我們承諾非常廣納所有的新住民來臺灣，融入臺灣的社會，我覺得這是一個基本的態度，現在不要一直進到細節說我們到底要不要有專責機構、哪一個專責機構，其實不是這樣的。我講一下，國際上有一個評比是移民融合政策的指標，有很多人權國家都有被評比，結果臺灣在這個評比裡面只有42分，一樣的條件之下，我們跟希臘、義大利的分數差不多，瑞典是77分，也就是我們在這樣的移民政策裡面並不符合目前國際上的人權趨勢，要改善的地方還有很多。","例如在勞動市場上面，我舉一個例子，有一個新住民的生活調查，來臺灣八年多的一個泰國配偶，他本來已經面試錄取工作了，他的居留證上面有加註「持證人工作不須申請工作許可」，但還是被公司拒絕了，這是實際發生過的案例，代表臺灣的就業市場對於外國人、對於新住民來臺灣，即便都已經有這樣的認證了，但在就業市場上還是非常不友善。當然還有很多，例如有些新住民提到因為社會救助法的資格審查必須包括職業、血親的收入，需要提供無扶養能力證明才能排除，不然會算出他的虛擬所得，所以有些新住民還要請母國的父母到很遠的市中心去準備文件，然後公證、翻譯之後拿過來，再提供給我們，有人有這樣的經驗，我覺得這些對他們來說都有點過頭了，你知道嗎？所以我很希望，雖然你們不是主管機關，但臺灣各方面的機關對於新住民的接納條件真的是嚴苛到不行。","最後我再講一個，希望由部裡來回答，還是國籍法的問題。我們歸化國籍五年之後就不能再撤銷國籍，我當然知道是為了身分的安定性，這有它的精神所在。可是在第二項裡面提到，如果經法院確定判決是虛偽結婚或收養而歸化取得國籍者，超過五年還是可以撤銷國籍，這個問題其實也很多人講過了，撤銷國籍牽涉身分的變動，當然要很謹慎！而虛偽結婚牽涉到的是偽造文書，如果有些人犯的不是偽造文書，甚至是更嚴重的犯罪行為，但他取得國籍歸化5年之後還是不用撤銷國籍，變成這個假結婚的罪刑反而是一個特例、是一個更嚴苛看待的事情，我覺得在比例輕重的拿捏上會有一個問題！","所以我想要請教一下次長，對於這個大家已經討論很久的，為什麼特別針對虛偽結婚的偽造文書罪，而其他類型的犯罪在5年之後就沒有事情、就不需要撤銷？怎麼看待這個？"],["花次長敬群：我想那是因為他取得國籍的核心原因是虛偽的嘛，至於這個人的其他事情跟取得國籍這件事情是脫勾的，所以這當然必須要不一樣看待。"],["黃委員捷：是啦，當然我還是希望你們再討論一下，因為會變成大家特別針對這件事情，何謂假結婚？其實結婚的目的有非常多重的原因，你們現在判斷他是不是假結婚，其實是事後來看當初這個婚姻是不是虛偽的，我覺得你們在判斷的標準上其實有很多、很多檢討空間，所以我希望……"],["花次長敬群：好，這個如果該檢討，當然我們會檢討。"],["黃委員捷：對，這個可以回去再討論一下啦！"],["花次長敬群：是，謝謝委員。"],["黃委員捷：好，以上，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝黃捷委員的質詢，謝謝次長、謝謝署長。","繼續請丁學忠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":448,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","丁學忠","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","羅美玲"],"page_start":345,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新\n住民權益保障法草案」案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(三)審查委\n員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」\n案、( 五) 審查委員蘇巧慧等 26 人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案；二、繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1133601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":0.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.0559687500000003,"end":2.8153437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.71784375,"end":6.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.443468750000001,"end":101.51721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.22596875,"end":108.53721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.65534375,"end":109.54971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.88721875,"end":111.03471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.57471875,"end":114.84846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.05096875000001,"end":115.06784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.06784375000001,"end":115.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.10159375,"end":130.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.11846875,"end":115.84409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.13284375,"end":131.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.70659375,"end":144.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.73409375,"end":145.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.79721875,"end":147.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.70409375,"end":154.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.89284375,"end":162.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.07721875000001,"end":166.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.18221875,"end":207.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.76221875000002,"end":218.98409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.40596875000003,"end":302.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":303.17346875000004,"end":327.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.47346875,"end":372.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.31034375,"end":375.58409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":372.59721875,"end":373.23846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":373.82909375,"end":374.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.22534375000004,"end":379.46534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":379.78596875000005,"end":380.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.37221875,"end":389.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.19784375,"end":412.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.11096875000004,"end":406.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.99596875000003,"end":413.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.02971875000003,"end":415.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.97034375000004,"end":417.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":417.06284375,"end":418.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.29909375000005,"end":418.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.00346875,"end":421.33221875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.149,"end":24.098,"text":"請花次請花次長莫委員好好 次長好今天這個不管是基本法還是權益保障法我覺得都非常重要為什麼呢因為其實我覺得剛剛花次的答覆大家不是很滿意就是說你還是把它太功利導向的說我們要先有解決的事項才來討論說要不要有一個一個"},{"start":26.298,"end":27.759,"text":"《新住民基本法草案》案"},{"start":44.906,"end":46.727,"text":"台灣已經超過60萬人新住民成長速度非常快內政部有新住民照顧服務措施政策韓國在2007年訂了《外國人處遇基本法》"},{"start":65.815,"end":81.731,"text":"他們內容包括人權保障、生活適應的支持、友善的環境和反歧視這些重要的規定早就定在裡面了。每5年他們就會提出外國人基本政策的計劃方針,然後趕快"},{"start":82.652,"end":94.066,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案．立法院第11屆第1會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會議．立法院第11屆第2會"},{"start":102.247,"end":103.787,"text":"審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審查委員審"},{"start":131.892,"end":132.733,"text":"現階段當然各部會針對他專業的事情來服務新住民"},{"start":145.911,"end":146.091,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":163.157,"end":167.281,"text":"現在實質面其實各部會也都在做當然我覺得這個組織到底要怎麼劃分這個其實都可以在主條的時候再討論我現在希望部裡要有一個態度就是說因為我們這些原則定出來是我們"},{"start":178.351,"end":206.257,"text":"承諾我們非常廣納所有新住民來台灣融入台灣的社會我覺得這是一個基本的態度啦現在不要一直進到細節說我們到底要不要有什麼專責機構然後哪一個專責機構其實不是這樣的那我講一下其實國際上有一個評比就是有一個移民融合政策的指標那有很多的人權國家都有被評比那其實台灣在這個評比裡面結果只有42分"},{"start":207.817,"end":208.237,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":228.491,"end":246.302,"text":"我舉一個例子有一個新住民的生活調查來台灣8年多的一個泰國的配偶他本來已經面試都已經錄取了可是他拿出拘留證上面拘留證有加註說這個持證的人工作不需經過不需要申請工作的許可但是還是被公司拒絕了"},{"start":247.402,"end":251.524,"text":"這是實際發生過的案例所以代表說台灣的這個就業市場其實對於外國人對於新住民來台灣即便都已經有這樣的認證了但是他還是在就業市場上非常的不友善那當然還有很多例如說"},{"start":262.608,"end":289.109,"text":"有些新住民有提到說因為我們在這個社會救助法的資格審查必須要包括職業血清的收入需要提供無撫養能力證明才能排除不然會算出他的虛擬所得所以有些新住民他還要請他的母國的父母到很遠的市中心去準備他的文件然後公證然後翻譯之後再拿過來再提供給我們有這樣的經驗那變成說我覺得這些其實都對他們來說都有一點過頭了"},{"start":291.611,"end":292.492,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":310.712,"end":314.618,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等19人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件"},{"start":327.555,"end":331.616,"text":"那這個問題其實也很多人講過了就是說撤銷國籍它是一個牽涉他身份的變動當然要很謹慎那虛偽結婚他牽涉到的是偽造文書但是如果有些人他犯的不是偽造文書甚至是更嚴重的犯罪行為但是他取得這個國籍規劃五年之後他還是不用撤銷國籍"},{"start":348.32,"end":373.637,"text":"那變成說好像這個假結婚的罪行反而是一個特例然後是一個更嚴苛看待的事情會變成他的比例的輕重在拿捏上我覺得會有一個問題所以我想要請教一下我們次長對於這個大家已經討論很久的為什麼特別針對這個虛偽結婚的偽造文書罪那跟其他類型的犯罪五年之後就沒有事情就不需要撤銷這個怎麼來看待"},{"start":376.257,"end":376.337,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":390.47,"end":417.791,"text":"當然我還是希望因為會變成說大家特別針對這件事情因為何謂假結婚這個其實結婚的目的有非常多重的原因你不能就是因為你們現在判斷他是不是假結婚其實是用他事後來看判當初這個婚姻是不是虛偽的我覺得你們在判斷這個標準上其實有很多很多的檢討空間所以我希望當然我們會檢討對這個可以回去再討論一下好以上謝謝"},{"start":419.005,"end":419.749,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"}]}},{"id":"151847","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151847","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e64a95c0145ebc8c8c5b40abc3f7af24af34e2527b10508eee8188cd1f86e2912d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:24:26 - 10:32:11","影片長度":"00:07:45","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。\n\n備註：4月29日（星期一）、5月1日(星期三)【兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":465,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:32:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:24:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":699,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時24分）感謝主席，請花次長跟移民署。"],["主席：請花次長跟署長。"],["花次長敬群：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：花次長早、署長早。今天我們看到新住民保障的草案裡面，相信你我都一樣，我們有很多新住民的好朋友，我在嘉義市跑攤的時候也有很多新住民都來跟我說：阿惠，要拜託你喔！我們的權利要拜託你幫幫忙。花次長，本席要先跟你探討一個問題，新住民來自很多國家，尤其新住民裡面有65%來自中國，對吧？"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["王委員美惠：等於100個裡面就有65個是中國來我們臺灣的，所以這個草案非常重要。本席要跟你說，移民署有一個網站，語言有越南文、印尼文、泰文，包括菲律賓、柬埔寨，但獨獨沒有簡體文，只有我們的國語而已。我覺得大家都要互相尊重，如果現在有在看手機、戲劇的人，大家要知道這個字怎麼讀，不然如果中國這些人要來臺灣生活，「葉」跟「叶」兩個字是天差地別！花次、署長，你有覺得我們裡面需要放這個，就是本席跟你說的這個問題嗎？請回答一下。"],["花次長敬群：跟委員報告，這件事情我們討論看看……"],["王委員美惠：好。"],["花次長敬群：因為這確實是一個很複雜的問題，我們討論看看。"],["王委員美惠：很複雜的問題，我就是說，我們裡面的好像特別沒有它，你們不會覺得說，他就有辦法融入我們的生活，我們也聽得懂，不過至少我們要尊重他。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["王委員美惠：本席跟你說到這個問題，你有做下去才知道，他也來自一個國家，他們的人來我們臺灣生活，我覺得大家都說我們新住民的入籍，尤其對中國人來臺灣的入籍是比任何國家都要嚴格，有這種事情嗎？請花次長回答。"],["花次長敬群：其實倒沒有特別嚴或特別寬，而是兩邊訂的標準不盡一致，所以過去會希望在兩邊都要選最好的，就是這種爭議啦！我覺得這樣的事情，大家彼此多溝通、多討論，因為涉及到的法制是不同的法系，有的是兩岸條例、有些是移民條例，所以法系不同，法系要接軌當然需要很多界面，因為一條條文背後都有過去的立法原因和背景，彼此的背景不一樣，又要把它拉到一致的時候，多溝通其實還是有路可以走。"],["王委員美惠：花次長、署長，這裡面的時空背景不同，以前中國人可以嫁來臺灣的時候，我們說實在的，那個環境也不同，尤其現在更加不同，包括他的權益也好、他如何提早取得身分證，現在的爭議就是在這裡，大家會覺得中國人來臺灣取得身分的時間為何這麼久，別人可以3年、住183天，為什麼他要住4年，還要住一個2年的？在這個過程中，你們說明得不清楚，因為如果是外國籍，他無法在取得之後參加選舉，是不是這樣？如果從中國嫁來這裡，是不是時間到就可以選舉？請移民署說一下。"],["鐘署長景琨：委員，剛剛我們已經說明了，依據的法源不同，權利義務也不同，其實待的時間，比如外國人的部分，四年其實一年要待335天、連續居住在臺灣，大陸的部分一年是183天，它的設計各有不同，所以權利義務也不同，一個是兩岸條例，一個是移民法、國籍法，各有不同，很難說哪一個比較好、哪一個比較壞。因為這也涉及到個人意願，像外國人的部分，有些人時間到了，他選擇的是永久居留，他也沒有要歸化，對不對？大陸的部分，他也未必就要在這裡定居、設籍，也涉及到他個人意願，或者說母國有一些資產、保險等等問題，所以很難說是好是壞。"],["王委員美惠：主席，不好意思！再給我1分鐘，謝謝。我覺得我們今天已經拿出來討論了，我們就把問題說清楚，尤其是他的子女，他在這裡結婚而且入籍之後，他的子女當然是臺灣籍，可以住臺灣嘛！"],["鐘署長景琨：是。"],["王委員美惠：不過未來我們要修的是有些人在入籍之後提出，在中國有12歲以下的小孩要申請進來臺灣，這個問題我們現在限制一年只有60個，不過我們也不能一直講一年只有60個，這個名額也有可能會改變，所以我覺得每一個草案、每一個條款都要訂清楚，要訂出現有最能解決新住民困境的方法，這是最重要的，以上。"],["鐘署長景琨：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝美惠委員的質詢，謝謝次長跟署長。","繼續請黃捷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":448,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","丁學忠","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","羅美玲"],"page_start":345,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新\n住民權益保障法草案」案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(三)審查委\n員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」\n案、( 五) 審查委員蘇巧慧等 26 人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案；二、繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 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審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。 審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。"},{"start":134.352,"end":137.613,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案。"},{"start":151.166,"end":170.602,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件 及新住民基本法草案案件"},{"start":180.14,"end":180.821,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":203.615,"end":229.427,"text":"其實倒沒有說特別嚴或特別寬而是兩邊的定的標準不盡一致那所以說過去會有會希望說我兩邊都要選最好的嘛那就是這種爭議啦那我會覺得這樣的事情大家彼此多溝通多討論因為它涉及到的法制不同的法系有的是兩岸的條例有些是移民的條例所以它的法系不同"},{"start":229.887,"end":230.588,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":253.342,"end":253.722,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":281.084,"end":284.947,"text":"案。 百人可以3天住18、83天,是怎樣他要住4天,還要住1、2天的,所以在這個過程當中,你說明不清楚,因為在這裡面,你如果外國人、外籍人,他是沒辦法站在前面選舉的,是不是這樣,我們中國人如果來這裡,"},{"start":309.392,"end":324.683,"text":"審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具:「新住民權益保�"},{"start":339.173,"end":346.017,"text":"大陸的部分其實今年是173天沒天 其實那個設計又有不同所以全立議會也是沒天這是兩岸條例 這是移民法 國際法所以國有不同"},{"start":358.044,"end":358.304,"text":"案。 審查委員"},{"start":376.727,"end":387.717,"text":"案。 也涉及到他個人意願,或是以母國的資產問題、保險等等,所以很難說好壞。主席,抱歉,還有9分鐘給我,謝謝。在這裏面,我認為我們今天已經開出討論,我們就讓問題講得清楚,尤其在他的經歷,他如果來我們這裏,"},{"start":402.89,"end":403.491,"text":"案。 審查委員張智倫等18人擬具"},{"start":423.288,"end":441.5,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案案。 審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案。 審查委員張智倫等22人擬具:「新住民權益保障"},{"start":447.303,"end":448.805,"text":"案。 審查委員羅美玲等21人擬具"}]}},{"id":"151846","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151846","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/e90f54132b1096e6df8435e1c10242d45b40abc3f7af24af34e2527b10508eee38ccd65fb7a125885ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:16:35 - 10:24:13","影片長度":"00:07:38","會議時間":"2024-04-29T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(詢答及處理)(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新住民權益保障法草案」案。(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(三)審查委員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。(五)審查委員蘇巧慧等26人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案。【第(四)案及第(五)案如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書則不予審查。】二、繼續審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案。\n\n備註：4月29日（星期一）、5月1日(星期三)【兩天一次會】）","date":"2024-04-29","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":458,"end_time":"2024-04-29T10:24:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-04-29T10:16:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":643,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時16分）請內政部花次長。"],["主席：有請花次長。"],["花次長敬群：委員早。"],["許委員宇甄：次長早，我想請教一下花次長，根據您剛剛的報告來看，目前政府的機制就足以保障新住民的各項權益，所以內政部認為不應該制定專法來保障新住民嗎？"],["花次長敬群：報告委員，倒不是說現在的機制足以保障，然後結論叫做不需要訂，而是在說我們怎麼樣來做，其實對新住民是比較好，我們要談的是這樣的角度，持續努力、持續精進是當然要的。"],["許委員宇甄：剛剛您提到這個部分，因為我看你的結論就是「針對不足之處予以補強與改進，較為妥適」，這是你們的結論，請問一下這個是目前內政部的立場嗎？"],["花次長敬群：我想其實我們分析過各國的狀態，因為至少沒有看到全世界目前任何一個國家，像美國、加拿大有那麼多移民的國家，他們也沒有新住民基本法或新住民權益保障法這樣的法制，大家其實都是用行政措施，由相關部會一起努力，這是我們現在看到的狀況。那要反過來問的就是，如果要訂這個專法，它實質上是幫了新住民哪些事，但是會不會產生哪些副作用，這個大家一併來思考。"],["許委員宇甄：是的，剛剛次長提到，大概就是現在世界各國並沒有這樣的專法出現。"],["花次長敬群：沒有。"],["許委員宇甄：你有沒有調查過，新住民為什麼希望制定專法給予保障，是不是因為現有的保障不足？否則的話，現有保障如果像您剛剛講的這樣的話，已經都足夠了，新住民或是我們這些委員不會要求提出專法的版本。"],["花次長敬群：我理解委員要協助新住民的這個善意，我完全理解。當然這背後就是我們的路徑要怎麼選擇，一種是剛剛委員在提的時候我有講，那我們是不是來調查一下，新住民其實在生活或各種事物底下遭遇到的困難，再做一次完整、多一些的盤點，我們再來看……"],["許委員宇甄：因為我知道好像內政部一直都有做這樣子的一個……"],["花次長敬群：是，我們一直在做調查。"],["許委員宇甄：針對新住民，到底他面對的困難是什麼？可能就是就業的一些相關問題。什麼時候你們會再做這樣子的一個盤點？"],["花次長敬群：我想今年8月我們還會再做一次。"],["許委員宇甄：那是不是這個部分，你們就要非常地清楚，當然這個專法我想各委員都有不同的想法，都希望能夠訂定，但我覺得最重要的是，訂定這個專法能夠真正地幫助他們解決問題。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["許委員宇甄：在這邊還要再請教您，我們看到你們有一個新住民發展基金。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["許委員宇甄：新住民發展基金的部分，大概110年跟111年撥補了5億進去，112年到113年撥補4億，就是希望基金規模能夠維持在10億。"],["花次長敬群：10億，是。"],["許委員宇甄：但是我們點到「考核作業」這個項目，發覺完全都沒有資料。那請問一下內政部是不考核新住民發展基金如何使用嗎？還是問題太多不敢上網？"],["花次長敬群：不是，我想請同仁說明一下。"],["許委員宇甄：因為時間的關係，是不是可以會後再把相關的資料給我？好嗎？"],["花次長敬群：好，這個部分我們再給資料，我們也趕快上網把它說明清楚。"],["許委員宇甄：我們再點進去看一下，新住民發展基金的多元文化推廣跟相關的宣導計畫，電視網站跟影片類，這幾年來我們看到的不是三立就是民視兩家電視得標。這個部分不曉得有什麼樣特別的意義，都是讓三立跟民視得標？您可以看一下，我們有整理出來，113年、112年、111年，幾乎就是三立跟民視。"],["花次長敬群：我們都是公開招標，前幾年其實TVBS也有得標。"],["許委員宇甄：那是不是可以把這8年這個項目的投標、決標資料給本席？"],["花次長敬群：沒問題，決標資料啦！我想投標資料可能涉及到秘密，就決標資料。"],["許委員宇甄：好，決標資料。","另外，這裡面有一個新住民培力發展資訊網，您可以看到最新一期的更新資料是在2023年8月8日。為什麼當這些新住民需要有工作機會的時候，這些資訊是這麼地落後，而且沒有提供完整甚至最即時的資訊？我想這也是很多新住民希望能夠制定專法的原因。剛剛提的只是告訴次長，這個部分可能要回去瞭解一下到底是什麼樣的原因？"],["花次長敬群：是，報告委員，基本上我們都是連到各部會的相關入口網，所以系統後台本來都持續在更新。"],["許委員宇甄：對，但如果我今天是新住民，我大概會想要去看這樣一個……"],["花次長敬群：我瞭解。"],["許委員宇甄：但是我看到是去年8月8日的，我大概就不曉得要去哪裡查詢。"],["花次長敬群：好，我們再瞭解。"],["許委員宇甄：另外再請教次長，內政部現在認為我們現行的6部國際人權公約已國內法化，包括ICERD等這幾部，對於新住民及外籍人士已經有一定的保障。但本席認為，因為沒有落實這6部人權公約的國內法化，才會有制定新住民基本法的呼聲出現！既然是沒做到的部分，你們有改進嗎？還有上個禮拜，就是4月22日我們才剛針對ICERD有一個國際審查會議……"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["許委員宇甄：目前臺灣的這些作為，是不是都符合國際公約？這次審查的結果如何、有沒有需要改進的地方？"],["花次長敬群：報告委員，這部分行政院都會列管，各部會就針對符合這六大公約相關的法律都在盤點。進一步的資料如果需要的話，我們再整理一下。"],["許委員宇甄：好，那請次長再提供一份給本席辦公室。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["許委員宇甄：因為目前看起來，我們其實有很多地方是沒有做到的，包括我們這邊提到在ICERD條約的專要文件第36頁、143條指出，按照兩岸條例等等，它裡面提到政府長期關注中國大陸配偶需求並致力提升其權益，但是國家人權委員會針對這份報告的平行回復卻指出，放寬新住民在臺居留規定時，須併同考量「臺灣地區與大陸地區人民關係條例」之大陸、港、澳地區新住民在臺定居及居留相關規定，以符合「ICERD」平等不歧視之精神。我們現在有做到這樣嗎？"],["花次長敬群：我想這一題大家討論得很多，因為陸、港、澳跟外籍的，其實他們的規定有不同……"],["許委員宇甄：對。"],["花次長敬群：當然年限或各種標準……"],["許委員宇甄：但是站在人權、平權的立場，我們還是希望針對國家人權委員會提的，他們都已經提出來了……"],["花次長敬群：瞭解，這一題其實大家都很關心。"],["許委員宇甄：而且在109年6月底兩公約的國家報告，當時蘇貞昌前院長還特別發表這份報告指出，在未來，我們的兩公約國家報告第239點也強調，大陸配偶來臺取得身分證年限調整為與外籍配偶一致，已擬具兩岸關係條例第十七條修正草案，尚待立法院完成立法程序。目前都還沒有送到立法院來，是嗎？"],["花次長敬群：這個我們會跟陸委會再做溝通。"],["許委員宇甄：既然這個是你們的國家報告，我覺得應該要對社會、國際負責……"],["花次長敬群：瞭解。"],["許委員宇甄：應該要儘快送立法院。"],["花次長敬群：謝謝委員關心。"],["主席：謝謝宇甄委員的質詢，謝謝署長、次長。","繼續請可愛的王美惠委員質詢。在李柏毅委員質詢結束後，我們休息5分鐘，好嗎？謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":448,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","麥玉珍","牛煦庭","張智倫","張宏陸","黃建賓","許宇甄","王美惠","黃捷","丁學忠","李柏毅","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","吳琪銘","楊瓊瓔","徐欣瑩","羅美玲"],"page_start":345,"meetingDate":["2024-04-29"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00005"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、「新住民權益保障法草案」及「新住民基本法草案」：(一)審查委員羅美玲等22人擬具「新\n住民權益保障法草案」案、(二)審查台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(三)審查委\n員張智倫等18人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案、(四)審查國民黨黨團擬具「新住民基本法草案」\n案、( 五) 審查委員蘇巧慧等 26 人擬具「新住民基本法草案」案；二、繼續審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 等20人擬具「原住民族基本法增訂第二十條之一條文草案」案","agenda_id":"1133601_00004"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":3.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.535968750000002,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.025343750000001,"end":9.059093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.126593750000001,"end":25.140968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.76534375,"end":25.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.96784375,"end":40.547843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.96596875,"end":54.689093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.35659375,"end":49.727843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.17846875,"end":69.10034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.30284375000001,"end":87.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.67971875,"end":93.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.42971875,"end":97.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.46721875,"end":108.33471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.52034375000001,"end":130.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.39659375000001,"end":117.46409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.68346875,"end":117.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.03596875,"end":141.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.48284375,"end":134.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.83159375,"end":142.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.38846875000002,"end":142.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.62034375000002,"end":186.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.30159375000002,"end":158.36909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.58846875,"end":158.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.79096875000002,"end":158.94284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.75284375,"end":190.97159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.56221875,"end":192.10221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.74346875,"end":196.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.77659375000002,"end":198.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.93659375000001,"end":235.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.87721875000003,"end":202.98659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.81409375,"end":227.01659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.35721875000002,"end":238.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.89284375000003,"end":236.46659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":238.20471875,"end":242.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.63471875000002,"end":242.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.94659375,"end":246.54096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.29659375000003,"end":280.67909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.92409375,"end":287.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.09159375,"end":309.01221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.10846875000004,"end":287.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":289.23471875,"end":289.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.57159375000003,"end":294.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":309.24846875000003,"end":318.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.32721875000004,"end":335.20221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.21909375,"end":335.23596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.23596875000004,"end":343.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.03221875,"end":346.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.62659375000004,"end":351.08159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.26721875000004,"end":359.99159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.16034375000004,"end":371.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.10784375000003,"end":387.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.29534375000003,"end":389.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":389.57346875,"end":397.80846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.81784375,"end":392.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":397.80846875000003,"end":397.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":397.97721875,"end":398.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.02784375000005,"end":398.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.06159375000004,"end":398.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.16284375000004,"end":398.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.28096875,"end":400.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.74909375000004,"end":436.73909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.12409375000004,"end":406.98846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":437.22846875000005,"end":438.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":439.40534375000004,"end":440.45159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":443.18534375,"end":445.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.58159375,"end":453.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.09971875,"end":451.87596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":452.58471875000004,"end":452.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.96846875000006,"end":458.96346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0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我們請內政部花次長有請花次長委員長次長早我想請教一下花次長就是根據您剛的報告來看目前政府的機制就足以保障新住民的各項的權益所以內政部認為不應該制定專法來保障新住民嗎"},{"start":25.825,"end":54.087,"text":"包委員倒不是說現在的機制足以保障然後結論叫做不需要定而是在說我們怎麼樣來做其實對新住民是比較好的我們要談的是這樣子的一個角度持續努力、持續精進是當然要的剛剛您提到的這個部分因為我看你的結論的部分就是說如針對不足之處予以補強與改進較為妥適這是你們的這個部分那請問一下這個是目前內政部的立場嗎"},{"start":55.228,"end":76.783,"text":"我想其實我們分析看過各國的狀態因為全世界目前我們至少沒有看到任何一個國家像美國、加拿大那麼多移民的國家他們也沒有新住民基本法或新住民權益保障法這樣子的法制所以大家其實都是用行政措施各相關的部會一起努力所以我想這是我們現在看到的狀況那反過來問的就是說定了這個如果要來定這個專法"},{"start":80.526,"end":108.119,"text":"他實質上是幫了新住民哪些事?但是會不會產生哪些副作用?這個都要一併來思考。是的,剛剛次長提到的就是大概是說現在世界各國並沒有這樣的一個專法出現。所以你有沒有調查過就是新住民為什麼希望制定專法給予保障?是不是因為現有的保障不足?否則的話現有的保障如果像您剛講的這樣的話已經都足夠了新住民或是我們一些委員不會要求提出專法的版本。"},{"start":109.365,"end":135.587,"text":"我理解委員要來協助新住民這個善意我完全理解那當然這背後就是說我們的路徑要怎麼選擇嘛一種是我剛剛其實剛剛委員在提的時候我有講那我們是不是來調查一下新住民其實在生活或各種事務底下遭遇到的困難我們再做一次完整的多一點的盤點我們再來看因為我知道好像內政部一直都有做這樣子的一個嘛就對新住民他到底他面對的困難是什麼"},{"start":136.187,"end":136.527,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":166.059,"end":173.106,"text":"其實新住民法草案基金的部分我們可以看到大概在去年110年跟111年撥補了5億進去112年到113年撥補4億就是希望基金規模能夠維持在10億但是我們點到考核作業這個項目可以發覺完全都沒有資料"},{"start":187.123,"end":204.644,"text":"請問一下,內政部是不考核新住民的發展基金如何使用嗎?還是問題太多不敢上網?不是,我想請同仁說明一下。因為時間的關係,是不是可以會後再把這個相關的資料。這個不會,我們再把資料給他,我們也趕快上網把它說明清楚。"},{"start":204.804,"end":214.567,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民的發展基金的多元文化推廣跟相關的宣導計劃。」審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民的發展基金的多元文化推廣跟相關的宣導計劃。」審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民的發展基金的多元文化推廣跟相關的宣導計劃。」審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民的發展基金的多元文化推廣跟相關的宣導計劃。」審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民的發展基金的多元文化推廣跟相關的宣導計劃。」審查委員羅美玲"},{"start":228.17,"end":228.27,"text":"審查委員"},{"start":242.987,"end":251.896,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案件 及新住民權益保障法草案件 及新住民權益保障法草案件 及新住民權益保障法草案件 及新住民權益保障法草案件 及新住民權益保障法草案件 及新住民權益保障法草案件"},{"start":265.269,"end":265.71,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具"},{"start":288.148,"end":305.361,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民權益保障法草案案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民權益保障法草案案件 及新住民"},{"start":309.224,"end":334.987,"text":"審查委員羅美玲等18人擬具:「新住民基本法草案案件,本席就認為因為沒有落實這六步人權的國內法化,才會有這個制定新住民基本法的呼聲出現。那既然沒有做到的部分,你們有改進嗎?還有上個禮拜,4月12日我們才針對ISER有一個國際審查會議,就是我們目前台灣的這些作為是不是都有符合國際公約,那這次審查的結果是如何?有沒有需要改進的地方?"},{"start":335.287,"end":356.515,"text":"審查委員這部分行政院都會列管那各部會針對符合這六大公約相關的法律都在盤點那進一步的資料如果需要的話我們再整理一下請次長再移分給本市辦公室因為目前看起來我們其實有很多地方是沒有做到的包括說我們這邊提到的就是在ISAC的這個條約的專要文件第36頁143條指出按照兩岸的條例"},{"start":361.757,"end":388.913,"text":"政府長期關注中國大陸配偶需求並致力提升其權益但是國家人權委員會針對這份報告的平行回覆卻指出放寬新住民在台拘留規定時需並同考量台灣地區、大陸地區人民關係條例的大陸港澳新住民的在台定居跟拘留相關規定以符合ISR平等不歧視的精神所以說我們現在有做到這樣嗎?"},{"start":390.474,"end":400.405,"text":"這題大家討論了很多因為入港澳跟外籍的其實他們的規定有不同當然連線或各種標準但是站在人權平權的立場我們還是希望針對國家人權委員會已經提出來了"},{"start":406.912,"end":436.512,"text":"而且在109年6月底的兩公約國家報告當時的蘇貞昌前院長還特別發表這份報告就指到說未來我們的兩公約國家報告第239點強調大陸配合來台取得身份證的年限調整為與外籍配合一致以凝聚兩岸關係條例第17條的修正草案上代立法院完成立法程序"},{"start":437.293,"end":437.413,"text":"審查委員"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}