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案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具"},{"start":2147.148,"end":2168.239,"text":"本席今天身為提案人之一我提案的版本就是針對過去613號縣市解釋之後我們再做修正這與法與情與理都沒有違憲的問題更能夠來協助解決過去的分擾跟紛爭最重要的是我們也認為"},{"start":2169.62,"end":2181.068,"text":"如果說執政黨在立法院佔的席次之多數將弱化立法院行使人事同意權的效果已經違背了民意代表監督制衡職責避免執政黨不當影響廣電媒體的運作造成言論自由的閒置所以"},{"start":2186.391,"end":2210.221,"text":"我們要求在組織法第四條來進行修法我們也懇請所有的委員同仁都能夠支持本席的提案我們在今天好好的質詢並且來做主條審查我們希望大家能夠取得一致的共識修正撥亂反正讓NCC這個機關才是真真正正符合當初立法時候的精神以上謝謝"},{"start":2211.421,"end":2214.365,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2227.043,"end":2255.279,"text":"主席在座的各位委員各位官員們大家好在這次本席所提出來的NCC組織法的修正案主要的原因就是因為有鑒於現在我們看到NCC由NCC的委員遊行政院院長提名那麼在這些年的運作已經看到他們的狀況就是只是執行黨議而違背民意做出了非常多"},{"start":2257.26,"end":2277.619,"text":"違法、濫權、不符合民主法治精神的措施以及處分案。」那麼在這次本席所提出來的NCC組織法的修正案主要是有幾個重點。第一個就是調整目前現在NCC委員的人數。"},{"start":2279.008,"end":2280.309,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":2299.318,"end":2302.879,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2329.514,"end":2344.456,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,在其他民主國家不管是美國、韓國、德國、法國他們的通訊傳播監理機構基本上就是由議會來提名、任命。"},{"start":2345.911,"end":2374.89,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。 bicynna我認為這個是一個比較好的一個方法可以引進多元的民主力量在獨立機關裡面更能夠維持這個獨立機關的這樣的一個不受外在政治力影響的這樣的一個情形而"},{"start":2376.517,"end":2395.238,"text":"除此之外在本席所提出來的另外一個重點就是廢除交錯任期制目前NCC的委員確實是採取交錯任期制可是就現在NCC的相關的經理業務沒有那麼複雜"},{"start":2396.519,"end":2404.446,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．"},{"start":2422.635,"end":2451.238,"text":"謝謝翁委員那接下來我們請傅昆齊委員進行提案說明主席各位同仁各位媒體女士先生"},{"start":2452.677,"end":2455.499,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案 案"},{"start":2477.987,"end":2480.89,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2505.066,"end":2529.196,"text":"竟然用陳耀祥這樣的一個人物來擔任NCC的主委讓台灣所有的新聞自由倒退了40年又回到戒嚴時期不只箝制所有的媒體而且完全成為御用的打手已經不知李毅連此為何而負責主管打詐業務的這個NCC從108年"},{"start":2535.303,"end":2543.748,"text":"開始我花了13億元來打詐從108年的3.5萬件的詐騙案到去年的23萬件的詐騙案我們看到"},{"start":2548.769,"end":2555.713,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":2576.872,"end":2601.937,"text":"把全世界21世紀都走向自由民主的世紀,卻是台灣在開倒車。我們在這裡不只要修正第四條,NCC組織法第四條、第八條、第十條,必須啊,它這個未來行政院所推出的NCC的委員必須先經過審查委員會來審查通過,"},{"start":2604.932,"end":2614.954,"text":"在交給立法院過二分之一同意以後方能就職而這個審查委員會必須依照各政黨一比例來推薦"},{"start":2616.375,"end":2634.608,"text":"來完成對NCC提名委員的審查。而且對於現在所謂的NCC組織法所謂的霸王條款。什麼叫霸王條款?任期到期以後NCC到期以後竟然可以無限制的延任"},{"start":2635.629,"end":2652.698,"text":"如果新的委員沒有就職,舊的委員可以無限期的延任。這是十分誇張的反民主、反潮流的組織法。我們都應該要予以修正。另外就是NCC未來的成員必須"},{"start":2653.558,"end":2670.483,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第"},{"start":2679.11,"end":2700.958,"text":"那我們接下來請機關代表報告發言時間3分鐘請國家通訊傳播委員會陳主任委員報告主席各位委員各位"},{"start":2704.159,"end":2716.371,"text":"來賓各位媒體大家早安今天本會受邀是大院司法法制及交通委員會的聯席審查會議提出報告"},{"start":2718.032,"end":2744.411,"text":"是針對傅崐萁委員等33人所擬具的國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條修正草案等版本。」因為版本的議題很多,本會經過整理,只要回應如下,因為只有三分鐘的時間,詳情的部分請各位委員參閱書面報告。針對此次修正的各個版本,本會的意見如下,"},{"start":2745.795,"end":2770.088,"text":"第一本會委員會是由大院關於修正當中本會委員由大院政黨比例分配推薦名單或組成人與司法院四制第613號解釋意旨不符。」我想各位這個部分來講的話剛才很多委員都有提到四制613號解釋那四制613號解釋的主要意旨是本會委員人事提名權是歸屬於行政權"},{"start":2771.188,"end":2784.906,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案﹚立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案﹚立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員"},{"start":2786.937,"end":2812.706,"text":"獨立去政治化的要求．基本上來講．雖然立法院對於人事權有一定的參與跟限制以為制衡．但是這個人事權主要還是在行政院．而且如果是由大院來提名本會的委員的話．這跟憲法上責任政治的要求是有所抵觸的．而且由政黨比例分配本會的委員席次．"},{"start":2813.286,"end":2830.892,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員傅崐萁等43人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等41人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等41人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等41人擬具:「國家通�"},{"start":2839.395,"end":2865.266,"text":"另外有關於本會委員任期屆滿時未能順利通過新提名委員時應由原委員延任的部分因為本會組織法第四條第九項規定是參照公平交易委員會組織法第四條第十項規定所訂定的它主要目的在防止委員人士同意選未能通過時可能會陷入這個政務難以推動的這種窘境所以所謂的一種所謂的預防性的條款"},{"start":2866.38,"end":2883.193,"text":"因為本會委員任期交錯制的設計也建議為此因為本會委員的任期交錯制是降低本會因為委員任期屆滿之後人事變動對於組織運作所產生的震盪以避免或摒除政治干擾而且有助於經驗的傳承"},{"start":2884.514,"end":2911.274,"text":"法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。另外本會主任委員及副主任委員有行政院長提名大運同意,這是應屬適當的。這個跟中選會跟公平會等獨立機關的任命方式是相同的。最後一點,有關於委員個人權利的部分,修正版本裡面有提到本會委員離職後三年內不得擔任公職人員或代表政黨參選的規定是有違憲法保障人民參政權的意旨。事實上是"},{"start":2911.994,"end":2931.021,"text":"所謂的赤駝公權且有不當廉潔之餘。以上,基於現行組織法和以憲法權力設計的要求,依循現行任命本會委員。以上報告,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,呃...機關代表報告完畢,那其餘機關報告請參閱書面。相關的書面報告內容列入公報記錄。"},{"start":2941.888,"end":2967.719,"text":"現在提案說明以及機關報告都已經進行完畢現在開始進行詢答今天由於是司法及法制、交通兩個委員會的聯席會議那兩會聯席總共有28位委員因此詢答時間我們依照過去的往例本聯席會委員詢答時間是6分鐘"},{"start":2971.36,"end":2994.274,"text":"非聯席會委員尋答時間為三分鐘,均不再延長上午10點30分截止發言登記。那我特別說明,如果有臨時提案,也請於10點30分前提出,一律於11點處理。」主席這邊再跟各位重申一次,"},{"start":2995.744,"end":3020.195,"text":"依據立法委員行為法第七條請各位委員在本次會議中能夠遵守主席所作的才事還有不要任意的辱罵或進行人身攻擊還有一件重要的事情就是不要發言干擾他人的發言"},{"start":3021.377,"end":3027.082,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一．二）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具"},{"start":3044.485,"end":3060.932,"text":"如果有不熟悉的麻煩參照立法委員行為法第七條或是來這邊我有這本可以借大家看好謝謝各位接下來我們請登記第一位的黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":3083.403,"end":3098.611,"text":"無線麥克風的跟我講然後我會拿出來我這邊宣告一下有一支無線麥克風如果今天各位委員發言的時候有需要用到無線麥克風的時候跟我講一下我們會隨時拿出來"},{"start":3114.195,"end":3119.14,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3129.301,"end":3153.104,"text":"本月交通委員會成立禁電視必依案吊唁小組,NCC回覆拒絕提供資料。請問是誰給你的指示?這個我們沒有拒絕,我們只是公文說請離新那個重要業室。這個公文這樣回覆是誰給你的指示?這我自己決定的。你自己決定的?NCC是你自己可以決定的嗎?來看一下你今天的書面報告第二頁。看一下書面報告第二頁。"},{"start":3154.105,"end":3182.609,"text":"本會採多數決決務證務．這件事情是你陳耀祥一個人可以決定的嗎?提供這些相關是屬於行政事務的部分所以說我們在做這個行政存擔你直接啊把整個NCC拉起來跟立法院對幹結果竟然是你個人的決定我再問一次啦NCC是合意制還是首長制是合意制合意制還有行政事務為什麼你一個人可以決定合意制有行政事務啊"},{"start":3183.493,"end":3191.255,"text":"這個本來就行政事務啊!提供資料什麼不是行政事務啊!這個資料我們讓委員通過啊!看到什麼?本來就合意制嘛!第二個!第二個!大家安靜!安靜下來!安靜!沒有!我跟你們講!資料給你們!資料什麼?"},{"start":3210.219,"end":3216.817,"text":"大家冷靜下來好不好我剛剛已經特別說了麻煩尊重一下主席"},{"start":3218.442,"end":3227.405,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案案案"},{"start":3248.291,"end":3252.738,"text":"立法院第14屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":3260.543,"end":3265.487,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具"},{"start":3280.981,"end":3284.525,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":3304.495,"end":3330.1,"text":"三）委員蔣委員現在是莊委員要問問題還是我可以問問題?現在是黃委員他詢答的時間所以我剛剛請莊委員麥克風要關掉黃國昌委員在講的我沒在干擾啦是他去的時候我要跟你講啦好謝謝謝謝這樣我就好謝謝莊委員那我們接下來就會議繼續進行不好意思喔在繼續開始以前我想請教一下主席喔"},{"start":3332.75,"end":3353.104,"text":"請備詢的官員在我在問問題的時候等我把話講完我沒有請你回答以前請你不要任意插嘴這個基本的秩序可以守住嗎我請教一個問題請教主席你問我可以請不要反諮詢黃委員我們諮詢新司法裡面所謂急問急答的話那是要"},{"start":3354.487,"end":3359.009,"text":"詢問的委員來決定還是主席來決定還是我們要看情況來回應問題。」主席這樣規則清楚了嗎?"},{"start":3383.098,"end":3395.177,"text":"我已經講了很清楚了接下來我們就按照這樣處理好謝謝主席喔來請教一下主委啊你今天到司法跟交通聯席委員會來以前你先去了什麼地方"},{"start":3396.36,"end":3403.742,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第12屆第13屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第20屆第21屆第21屆第22屆第21屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22"},{"start":3425.127,"end":3446.508,"text":"溝通法案 嗎?這個是所謂的NCC組委超越職權嗎?全國人民心裡都有一把尺我現在跟你進入實質的問題現在NCC組委被提名的翁柏宗也是你們副組委之前在捲入禁電視弊案的時候他發了一個聲明那個聲明我看不懂他說"},{"start":3447.699,"end":3468.315,"text":"有傳聞提到他本人來文部分附件的形式真正性上代審酌。如果連形式真正性都無法確定就沒有具體事證。」翁柏宗在講的形式真正性是什麼啊?來我們來看一下2021年5月19號競電視大股東培偉傳訊息我們和翁副主委溝通過了"},{"start":3476.513,"end":3495.903,"text":"2021年8月4號裴偉再傳訊翁副主委提醒我們騙子流出去了這一個簡訊的形式真正性請問NCC確認了沒有我講的是形式真正性喔不是我們確認的問題不是你們可以確認的問題我想這個問題可以請委員詢問那個翁副主委對不起我再詢問的更具體一點這個"},{"start":3503.466,"end":3525.76,"text":"陳建平當初到NCC去接受訪談的時候有沒有證實這些簡訊都是真的?有還是沒有?請回答陳建平去NCC接受詢問的時候有沒有確認陪委傳給陳建平的這些簡訊都是真的?有還是沒有?請回答"},{"start":3526.759,"end":3543.223,"text":"你並不瞭解你作為NCC的主委啊什麼事情都不瞭解啊來這一天被刑的時候那個主席啊剛剛建立的規則我們的NCC主委恐怕是沒有要遵守主委麻煩一下時間請暫停那我再重申一次麻煩一下就官員能夠在那個委員他詢問完畢之後再回答"},{"start":3551.325,"end":3552.707,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3565.182,"end":3589.139,"text":"你作為NCC的主委這本來就是在禁電視的行政調查當中要調查的事情你既然說不知道我今天問你最關鍵的問題陳建平去NCC接受詢問的時候有沒有親自證實這些簡訊的形式真正性因為翁博宗他否認的是什麼否認的是欸連形式真正性都沒有確認可以這樣說謊喔"},{"start":3590.66,"end":3595.823,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具"},{"start":3614.232,"end":3637.307,"text":"有還是沒有請回答好你說沒有嘛好你說沒有來會議記錄記好了啦所有的事情我全部都查證過了我今天負責任的在國會殿堂跟大家報告這些簡訊全部都是真的我為什麼敢說這些簡訊全部都是真的因為我去找過陳建平我請他把手機拿給我看"},{"start":3638.61,"end":3664.936,"text":"從他手機裡面就是培韋的這些簡訊行事真正性、行事真正性他告訴我NCC約詢的時候他全部都說了我們現在為什麼大家對這件事情這麼憤怒培韋直接大剌剌的跟所有的股東講這張執照要拿到啊是蔡英文的旨意啊"},{"start":3667.265,"end":3692.77,"text":"結果呢NCC在面對這些行政調查的時候能拖就拖能混就混來繼續問目前針對NCC內神通外鬼提供了很多資料了嘛包括NCC內部人員洩漏資訊給陪委包括有人跟NCC檢舉結果進新聞的副總陳素秋他發言說什麼啊"},{"start":3693.697,"end":3698.54,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":3712.947,"end":3732.808,"text":"這個資料在上一屆國會的時候所有的錄音黨陳江華委員全部都放過了今天繼續再混告訴全國人民我們NCC早就做好了禁止的調查胡扯這是為什麼民進黨政府為什麼不願意郭吹哨者保護法"},{"start":3733.59,"end":3754.229,"text":"吹哨者去NCC檢舉資料,結果在進電視內部會議當中新聞副總陳素秋大剌剌地講:「NCC告訴我檢舉人是一個自然人,地址在內湖,然後培委傳訊給陳泰明的內容,也是講NCC內部告訴我,你們這些泄密NCC都沒有查嗎?」"},{"start":3759.932,"end":3772.26,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文"},{"start":3782.865,"end":3810.908,"text":"內部啊我最不好意思主席我只講最後一句話吼今天NCC主委在背巡台上面這種能拖就拖能混就混的行徑大家都看在眼裡為什麼全國人民對NCC的公正性沒有信任感就是因為有你這種主委有你們這種調查品質我們在行政院本來在政風是檢調然後再查沒有什麼這個莫須有的問題吧"},{"start":3812.25,"end":3814.253,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案"},{"start":3829.466,"end":3853.731,"text":"行政機關內部有行政機關應該要進行的行政調查人家到你們那邊去約尋的時候全部都跟你們講了全部都裝不知道約尋的紀錄敢不敢交到司法敢不敢交到交通委員會敢不敢調到調閱小組來為了就是要救民你們這種包庇的情境所以才成立調閱小組什麼東西都不給黃委員時間到了"},{"start":3860.067,"end":3860.447,"text":"主席,我看這個"},{"start":3884.324,"end":3901.875,"text":"這個分貝很大今天這個整個早上劍拔弩張好像是我們設了一個刑堂今天要來這裡進行審問其實我個人是很想在這邊唱一首歌來緩和氣氛不過時間有限,執行時間有限我們還是回歸,就法論法"},{"start":3912.867,"end":3932.258,"text":"這個我想是不是先請我們主委陳主委麻煩主委主委齁剛才黃國昌委員質疑你說這個到立法院黨民進黨立法院黨團來做報告今天如果國民黨黨團要你去"},{"start":3933.387,"end":3940.19,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法"},{"start":3954.155,"end":3957.917,"text":"民進黨黨團不能要政府機關來黨團做溝通我們國民黨團也常常找政府機關首長去做溝通啊所以這個常常就會這樣子情緒化之後就會扣帽子扣帽子說你就是這樣所以你是民進黨養的狗"},{"start":3976.702,"end":3979.823,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":4001.386,"end":4026.583,"text":"這個我是不太清楚我原本想說就就法論法來討論但是我看到今天早上氣氛我就不太清楚究竟我們這些提案委員或是國民黨團是對主委你個人有意見對人有意見還是對現在的NCC委員會有意見或者是對制度有意見聽起來大家都在罵你一個人"},{"start":4028.749,"end":4052.899,"text":"但是結果他們採取的手段是修法應該都有啦我判斷應該是都有啦所以我個人認為我們要釐清啦齁你個人你如果是針對人有意見那個沒有問題我們立法我們立法院有有這個同意權現在同意權行使的時候這對人的意見我們都可以都可以表達這個這個就是目前的制度啊如果是對制度有意見那我們現在就來看我們的制度啊"},{"start":4053.973,"end":4078.089,"text":"我們現在這個這個主委我們現在現行的現行的國家通訊委員會組織法是在什麼時候通過的我們是在2006年成立的是2006年當時有修好幾次嘛那時候還有四線嘛現在現行的現行的有修到100最新的一次修正是在111年8月8號"},{"start":4082.335,"end":4085.716,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第四條條文修正草案．立法院第四條條文修正草案．立法院第四條條"},{"start":4110.19,"end":4112.452,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具 «國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案案案案"},{"start":4135.57,"end":4163.512,"text":"這個立法有立法的嚴格我們今天來討論而且我今天看這個我們等一下因為我們不能夠質詢提案人不然我們副總召個人也提了兩個案子我是在搞不太清楚到底副總召到底是主張主張什麼在短短一個月內提兩個案不同的案子不同的制度所以搞不太清楚說到底國民黨的主張到底是什麼但是我們這個立法嚴格裡面我們這個國家通訊委員會組織法"},{"start":4165.31,"end":4171.115,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":4194.878,"end":4204.574,"text":"最后由行政院提示線,那時候說要按照政黨比例,就是說這個不是院長提名,而是政黨比例、政黨提名。"},{"start":4206.243,"end":4233.294,"text":"立法院立法院提名政黨提名結果最後釋字613號做什麼樣的解釋重點後來那個政黨比例這部分在613號裡面來講還被宣告違憲宣告違憲然後他就直接的理由就是基於行政一體然後憲法53條憲法53條就是就是行政權行政院是國家最高行政機關那基於行政一體他說權力分立齁這個有這個"},{"start":4236.909,"end":4258.502,"text":"人事的決定並不是說不能立法院不是不能限制但是限制有一定的界限你不能取而代之你不能說結果行政院不能任命權行政院的任命權你說立法院我來取而代之或者是政黨來取而代之我想這個這個後來就是因為這個事件我們才再修法修正現在這樣的制度對不對是的"},{"start":4259.813,"end":4281.903,"text":"所以我想等一下會進入大體討論會進入逐條討論我們現在這個我看到這幾個法案這幾個法案不只是這個已經不只是回到釋憲之前的狀態它是比釋憲之前更加的侵犯行政權更加的逾越了大法官所設下的那個"},{"start":4283.123,"end":4312.449,"text":"立法權的限制,這個等一下我們在主條跟大體討論的時候希望說我們能夠好好的來溝通。那主委我也希望說等一下在詢答的過程中,你能夠心平氣和,因為這個還是要對立法院有一定的尊重,對立法委員要有一定尊重,你還是要心平氣和。他們的目的就是激怒你嘛,讓你在這邊侮辱你、激怒你,你不要自己丟起來這樣不好啦。好,謝謝,謝謝。好,謝謝沈委員。那我們接下來請柯建民委員發言。"},{"start":4325.874,"end":4352.064,"text":"主席各位委員長人今天我首先要請教昭偉昨天是NCC的名單進來今天在審查這個法案這種時間強化安排那作為昭偉你認為現在已經要名單送進來你要再修改有優勢規則這正當性可以取得到嗎這是第一個問題"},{"start":4353.871,"end":4380.217,"text":"因為問題就是說我們現在看到洪孟楷今天來這裡參與委員會核心問題都沒有跟你說還是一樣同樣的今天是從已經講了三屆到現在還在講他在質問主委你為什麼有對於他們貂魚小組的回答你本一天本來就是如此啦"},{"start":4381.721,"end":4395.768,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":4409.802,"end":4426.55,"text":"檢查中不能調,但檢查結束都不能給你調,那是當年的事情,729失誤。今天是在輸送中,你用這個第二委員會要去處理,可行嗎?而且雙重違憲,雙重違憲。另外一件事,你用585失誤,"},{"start":4431.28,"end":4434.241,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":4459.535,"end":4481.731,"text":"這一個五權是分立的。你委員可以監督行政院自然行政院沒有錯但是沒有所謂的你上對下的關係所以剛才只要想回答黃國昌很正確啊你委員的執行時間是執行新法第18條規定是很清楚是急問急答兩個人過過時間回來之後你不能講話要聽信這上對下的關係這根本都是違憲違法"},{"start":4488.24,"end":4492.243,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":4518.717,"end":4537.305,"text":"已經名單送進來你要修改遊戲規則我請問假如我們立法委員選區都有去發訂跟公告大家都開始選舉了你再修改遊戲規則選區重新重新發訂這個不天下大約有可能嗎?過去立法院在審查國會改革的時候有單一選區兩票制也是隔屆了"},{"start":4548.285,"end":4568.321,"text":"立法院第12屆第11會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13條條文修正草案案．立法院第12屆第13會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第12屆第13會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第12屆第13會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第12屆第13會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第12屆第13會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第12屆第13會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第12屆第13會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第12屆第13會期司法及法制、交通委員會"},{"start":4573.444,"end":4575.706,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":4599.406,"end":4626.024,"text":"所以這個在整個立法史上是一個非常有名的案例今天大法院事實出來解釋出來激難公安挑戰就是胡文煦的版本就是翁小玲的版本胡文煦還一個人提兩個版本重新創造了可能性欸實在說他提兩個版本第四條、第八條還有第十條剛剛第四條除了除了"},{"start":4628.271,"end":4653.386,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案 項目一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":4656.889,"end":4684.203,"text":"洪孟楷的版本照理貨,洪孟楷的版本抄到當年2016、1964以後,國民黨才提出的版本,他用改良師用改,然後這個版本也是違憲。他是要版本寫從第7屆開始,各位請看看,洪孟楷的版本連抄都抄,把舊的抄,現在第幾屆?現在第11屆,因為他的版本寫從第7屆開始,"},{"start":4686.274,"end":4687.234,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":4714.062,"end":4741.157,"text":"剩下三個副主委是立法院來任命。這徹底剝奪行政院的權利。這徹底違憲。二）委員你老公是大法官了。這樣的法案免得提了出來。今天我們在這裡要談一個很清楚的事情。法官商在那裡表演,黑野狗沒辦法抓。前一陣子沒有講到核心問題。這是作秀。"},{"start":4742.476,"end":4767.619,"text":"我一直希望他出來打球來好好做憲政辯論、憲法辯論、版本的辯論他一直在呼喚國民黨他怎麼呼喚就要來講清楚吧你以為你要黃國昌兩個加起來天下無敵國家在你們兩個掌控中國家要肥在你們兩個惡極必反我要告訴你不要作惡多端"},{"start":4772.625,"end":4774.626,"text":"公共商業實驗法令,我們拿來拼負負擋範。」"},{"start":4794.195,"end":4813.393,"text":"我先簡單回應一下就是這個會議我們還是希望會議進行順利那今天的排案一切依照規定排案請柯總召或其他委員不用刻意去做錯誤的解讀第二個審查結果我們一切依照聯席委員的審查結論"},{"start":4815.344,"end":4837.077,"text":"所以說也不要做刻意帶風向的解讀第三個柯總召小弟我書念的不多那我國是成文法國家那如果我們今天的排案有任何違法或違憲的地方再麻煩柯總召會後能夠開示一下讓我瞭解到底我今天排的案子哪裡違法哪裡違憲說這個"},{"start":4840.439,"end":4853.078,"text":"NCC委員的名單提出來然後我們今天審遊戲規則如果這個有任何違法或違憲的地方再麻煩跟小弟我開示一下謝謝柯總召那我們接下來請陳俊宇委員發言"},{"start":4873.274,"end":4875.519,"text":"好謝謝主席我們有請陳主委麻煩主委謝謝"},{"start":4880.314,"end":4903.176,"text":"主委早委員長我們今天要審查的是NCC委員的人事提名還有我們相關組織法的修正草案那當初我們設立NCC組織法的第一條裡面有寫到這個其中的幾項第一項就是要落實憲法保障的言論自由謹守黨政軍退出媒體的這種精神"},{"start":4903.857,"end":4922.265,"text":"第二條是要促進通訊傳播健全發展維護媒體專業的自主第三是有效辦理通訊傳播管理事項確保通訊傳播市場公平有效的競爭第四是保障消費者及尊重弱勢權益第五是促進多元文化的均衡發展"},{"start":4922.705,"end":4935.544,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並提升國家競爭力等等。那我想請教我們陳主委就是您在任期內對於上述的這幾項您認為在您任期內有幾項已經達到了"},{"start":4937.011,"end":4940.615,"text":"立法院第11會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":4957.614,"end":4970.904,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四"},{"start":4978.85,"end":5004.452,"text":"所以對於任期內我們剛剛講的這部分應該在主委的這個作為方面應該都有落實都有的在我們相關的制度都有好那我還是回到我們今天要討論的這個人事提名的部分那就我們現行的組織來看我們委員是編制7人那任期4年任滿得連任由行政院長提名並經過立法院同意後任命"},{"start":5005.233,"end":5024.094,"text":"那現行的制度設計確保NCC的專業和獨立性我想請教我們主委若我們這個改成照立法院政黨的比例來推派的話那可能有違大法官解釋的這個意旨之外還可能會對我們NCC造成什麼樣的影響"},{"start":5024.855,"end":5040.627,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第21會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第22會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第22會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第23會期"},{"start":5045.911,"end":5047.692,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5074.19,"end":5095.419,"text":"所以內部上來講對整個這個制度對獨立機關本來本質上就有抵觸然後對政務上的推動是有所不利好那我們這一次送審的這個名單是四位嘛對要這個要更替的是四位是那假設這四位如果沒有順利通過的話未來對我們NCC推動的過程裡面會造成什麼樣的影響"},{"start":5096.147,"end":5122.569,"text":"這個就是因為我們組織法裡面規定說如果新任的還沒有只會順利產生就任的時候由原任的委員繼續留任就是這樣就避免這個所謂的我們的整個政務會中斷的問題我舉一個例子來講的話我們NCC呢每一年大概有好幾萬件的這種行政處分各位可以看可能大家都只是關注到所謂電視的什麼深色換照啦電信業者合併其實很重要比如說像我們手機"},{"start":5123.57,"end":5127.453,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,以及其他通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及其他通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及其他通訊傳播委員會組織法"},{"start":5140.913,"end":5144.717,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案例"},{"start":5161.314,"end":5180.071,"text":"我認為我們NCC作為掌管我們國家的通訊傳播事業的獨立機關我們都同意在人事上應該以專業為重也要超越黨派同時尊重NCC委員們所擁有的專業以及代表的多元價值"},{"start":5181.793,"end":5202.314,"text":"國會也應該基於權力分立的這個原則來尊重憲政體制下的這個職權的行使在符合權責的相符的界限下我們共同來監督還有制衡行政部門的這個施政應該朝向這個目標我相信NCC在推動的這個過程應該會更加順遂吧"},{"start":5204.096,"end":5212.386,"text":"那對於說這個主委您在7月份即將到任那您對後續的NCC有什麼期許?"},{"start":5213.291,"end":5225.436,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第十"},{"start":5241.203,"end":5244.586,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案"},{"start":5263.622,"end":5265.863,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5292.39,"end":5314.429,"text":"主席請恩熙熙陳主委麻煩主委委員長主委我必須要先聲明一下當立法委員尊重官員是基本的禮數我希望官員也不要一意孤行的就搶著打法這一點"},{"start":5315.58,"end":5337.309,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第12屆第13條條文修正草案．一）立法院第14條條文修正草案．一）立法院第15條條文修正草案．一）立法院第16條條文修正草案．一）立法院第17條條文修正草案．一）立法院第18條條文修正草案．一）立法院第18條條文修正草案．一）立法院第19條條文修正草案．一）立法院第20條條文"},{"start":5338.973,"end":5359.549,"text":"所以我希望主席裁定的我不希望我在執行的時候你來講話我也不希望我都不給你時間講話這一點我希望我執行的個性我坦白跟主委聲明一下第一個立法委員提案我個人的看法"},{"start":5360.903,"end":5363.704,"text":"理所當然、職權所在。」"},{"start":5383.371,"end":5397.949,"text":"消化。」所以我希望我希望主委不要因為別人的護航而影響你的判斷立法委員提案是天經地義的事也是他的天職第二個我要澄清"},{"start":5399.318,"end":5425.22,"text":"我們調閱小組競電式調閱小組是依照法令我們執行行使法的45條當中授權委員會而產生所以包括組織還有運作的所有規定還有調閱的範圍通通都是開會通過不是我林國成一個人去做決定"},{"start":5426.241,"end":5442.032,"text":"甚至於現在我們要回你的文我們都等開會以後我們才會回你的文所以這個我必須要特別的去強調我們是依照我們的執行法我們去行使這一點我特別"},{"start":5442.432,"end":5444.214,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5460.296,"end":5479.832,"text":"回歸正傳主委大家都知道啦你們名單NCC的名單已經提出這個叫做什麼壓線提出了無新意可是這裡又有一個陰謀我希望主委知道的你就回答不知道的你就說不知道"},{"start":5480.945,"end":5487.828,"text":"立法院第四條條文修正草案．立法院第四條條文修正草案．立法院第四條條文修正草案．"},{"start":5502.847,"end":5524.214,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第21"},{"start":5526.906,"end":5531.449,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期"},{"start":5547.898,"end":5549.998,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十三條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5573.462,"end":5582.224,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院第十三條條文修正草案．一．立法院第十三條條文修正草案．一．立法院第十三條條文修正草案．一．立法院第十三條條文修正草案．一．立法院第十三條條文"},{"start":5599.688,"end":5614.635,"text":"立法院第14屆第11會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16屆第18屆第19屆立法院第20屆立法院第21屆立法院第31屆立法院第32屆立法院第33屆立法院第34屆立法院第36屆立法院第37屆立法院第38屆立法院第39屆立法院第40屆立法院第40屆立法院第41屆立法院第41屆立法院第42屆立法院第42屆立法院第43屆立法院第44屆立法院第45屆立法院第46屆立法院第47屆立法院第48屆立法院第49屆立法院第49屆立法院第50屆立法院第50屆立法院第"},{"start":5627,"end":5641.961,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第14條條文修正草案．立法院第14條條文修正草案．立法院第15條條文修正草案．立法院第16條條文修正草案．立法院第17條條文修正草案．立法院第18條文修正草案．立法院第19條文修正草案．"},{"start":5642.662,"end":5659.489,"text":"所以你竟然還指責我們調的通通都是重要議案跟媒體有關人民有關的當然都是重要議案啦所以我跟你講你既然可以認定那為什麼你不認定什麼可以給什麼不能給為什麼通通不給"},{"start":5660.029,"end":5672.523,"text":"立法院第16屆第11會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16屆第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第21會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第22會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第23會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第24會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第25會期"},{"start":5679.751,"end":5688.596,"text":"不要成為有史以來NCC的主委是最爛的爛官這是我必須給你一個鼓勵好不好謝謝主席有請主委麻煩主委"},{"start":5710.425,"end":5733.998,"text":"委員長主委今天質詢你我只問一個問題就好了你知道我問什麼問題嗎我不知道對我就只問你這個問題你可以下台了下台下去了我質詢完了你我已經質詢完了下去了結束了我們可以就是時間暫停他不下去不用停了主委可以先下去休息好謝謝這沒問題我們就請下去"},{"start":5738.973,"end":5748.976,"text":"主席有請這個NCC主秘全序部內政部教育部文化部人事行政總署請剛剛點到的請上台今天在我們"},{"start":5765.307,"end":5781.612,"text":"司法及法制及交通委員會聯席審查的這個會議當中我第一個要表示對這個民主之詞新聞自由之詞我們國會站在電台上羞辱國會的陳耀祥表達最嚴厲的譴責他在這個國會的一秒鐘我覺得都是對台灣民主的羞辱"},{"start":5789.076,"end":5818.433,"text":"民進黨政府這八年來我最瞧不起的就是兩個人第二名張天青第一名就是陳耀祥這兩個人的差別一個是已經滾蛋的東廠一個是還沒滾蛋的東廠陳耀祥跟張天青張天青起碼還自以為是東廠洋洋得意社會撻伐之後就滾蛋了"},{"start":5819.568,"end":5830.677,"text":"但是今天我們直接在這邊傷害新聞自由自身竊據連民進黨的前總統陳水扁總統都公開表達對這個NCC關新聞台強烈不滿而這樣的一個所以NCC的主委他還可以在我們的這個行政團隊在NCC上厚顏無恥的"},{"start":5850.299,"end":5851.3,"text":"法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":5872.863,"end":5897.842,"text":"剛剛幾位委員已經把所有過去NCC對於禁電視裡面荒腔走板的護航荒腔走板的一個掩護失去獨立機關的獨立性我們要開始進行調閱竟然陳耀祥完全不讓大家意外我直接告訴大家禁電視調閱小組那一天成立那一天媒體問我就預言了"},{"start":5899.38,"end":5924.301,"text":"你能期待這個新聞自由的屠夫這個新聞自由踐踏新聞自由的新聞自由殺手他會尊重調閱小組、調閱資料嗎我直接說他不會給資料的啦他不會給資料的啦他基本上就是完全不把民主、把國會、把新聞自由當一回事連"},{"start":5927.873,"end":5955.318,"text":"行政院院長陳建仁在我質詢的時候我印象深刻啊我問陳建仁院長你贊成政府關新聞台嗎我連問六次最後陳建仁終於熬不住說他不贊成關新聞台政府不該關新聞台何其諷刺的畫面是陳耀祥就站在陳建仁旁邊"},{"start":5956.786,"end":5961.93,"text":"我仔細的看著這個東廠的表情多然不驚啊人的厚顏無恥到這種程度我在你陳耀祥身上是見識了所以你今天上來我都覺得是對國會的羞辱我待會就提案譴責你啊譴責你今天對於國會的藐視跟踐踏我在這邊也問在座幾位官員"},{"start":5986.007,"end":5997.681,"text":"陳水扁前總統曾經公開表達他認為政府不該關新聞台。行政院院長陳建仁也公開表達"},{"start":5999.444,"end":6018.966,"text":"認為政府不該關新聞台。就像當年的政府不該關報社所以民主前進的過程,報竟解除了。我想請問人事行政處,你認同陳水扁前總統還有行政院院長陳建仁說的政府不該關新聞台嗎?我們的認同非常好。"},{"start":6019.517,"end":6047.502,"text":"我想問文化部的代表我們人事行政總署認同陳水扁前總統還有我們的陳建仁院長說政府不該關新聞台你認同嗎認同嗎那你不認同陳建仁院長啊你可以下去了啦你也下去了你下去了下去了記住你的名字我們的陳怡靜文化部的陳怡靜他認為政府該關新聞台你是這個意思嗎"},{"start":6048.772,"end":6050.473,"text":"公務員行政總理依法行政"},{"start":6073.62,"end":6097.327,"text":"正好回答跟陳耀祥差不多啦謝謝你為難你啦不期待啦但至少人事行政總署有勇氣直接說政府不該關新聞台連陳水扁前總統的話都講了連我們的陳建仁院長都講了那其他人我們文化部也不敢表態啊主任也不敢表態啊那我再問下一個問題啊主秘鄭林總能回答了齁來請上來"},{"start":6099.938,"end":6125.123,"text":"懲戒院長答應我說NCC四位藉期的委員藉期之後他要提名會把名單先來跟在野黨溝通你們名單什麼時候提出來的報紙上寫說昨天要提出來報紙上寫昨天啊拜託你是NCC主秘你要看報紙你要看報紙什麼時候收到立法院的"},{"start":6126.91,"end":6153.685,"text":"這個因為我不是經過我的你是主秘欸大小事不都經過主秘在陳主委沒關係啦有這麼所謂東廠跟廢的主委你主秘掌握不了狀況也能夠理解啦溝通了沒我再問你溝通了沒你不知道啦我幫你回答啦對不對對沒有溝通啊所以你今天陳耀祥你也打臉陳建仁嗎最後我要說的是什麼待會就臨時提案很簡單"},{"start":6155.646,"end":6170.577,"text":"剩下一個歷史的紀錄,民進黨口口聲聲把鄭楠榮的百分之百言論自由掛在嘴上。陳水扁總統尊尊教誨政府不可以關新聞台,但是就出了一個關新聞台陳耀祥,這就是你的歷史定位。謝謝。好,謝謝。那我這邊再提醒一下,十點半快到了,如果有什麼要提的要趕快提出來。"},{"start":6184.051,"end":6200.338,"text":"接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員謝謝主席我有請我們陳耀祥主任委員麻煩主委"},{"start":6205.876,"end":6226.405,"text":"主委早,這就是國會啦,你也看多了啦,這沒什麼啦,國會現在,現在的國會啊,政黨都來都去,立法委員現在這一屆的立法委員,無限膨脹,權力要大到什麼地步,每一個人的想像有所不同。但我都要請教啦,2005年的時候,那個時候你在什麼地方?"},{"start":6230.115,"end":6246.381,"text":"兩千零五年我在學校在學校我之所以這樣問讓主委來回憶一下當初啊2005年在立法的時候其實這個立法的嚴格來看它是非常重要2005年那個時候有通傳會的一個組織法"},{"start":6247.418,"end":6250.1,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6272.473,"end":6277.597,"text":"當初的審查委員會由各政黨依照政黨比例推薦11位專家學者來組成,同年12月提出的市縣行政院長謝長廷當時的行政院秘書長有趣"},{"start":6289.474,"end":6299.363,"text":"就是即將要接任行政院長的叫做卓榮泰在隔年2006年的時候大法官做成的4-613號的一個解釋宣告了這個條文違憲注意違憲的內容你應該知道你請你說明一下"},{"start":6306.786,"end":6308.028,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6324.589,"end":6343.048,"text":"雖然在法律上來講的話立法院對於人事同意權的部分因為透過人事同意權或是透過立法的可以對人事有一點的參與或是制衡但是不可以逾越這個所謂權力分立的這個界限事實上剝奪行政院院長的所謂人事同意權這個就講得好你看今年3月8號"},{"start":6344.21,"end":6349.354,"text":"副坤祺委員提出NCC組織法修正草案,裡面據渠道說通訊會委員由行政院及各政黨各推薦7名,依照各政黨在立法院的比例名額來分,而且要交由審查委員會的審議,審查委員會組成各政黨在立法院的席次比例來做一個推薦,一仔細把它看一看。"},{"start":6368.672,"end":6372.375,"text":"就跟20年前的條文一模一樣。」被大法官宣告違憲的條文重新又出來了,但是後來不知道他發現了什麼,他又提出另外一個版本,改由立法院推舉審查委員。這叫什麼你知道嗎?新的手機還是用舊的門號。"},{"start":6392.192,"end":6410.645,"text":"新品莊的還是舊酒換湯不換藥同樣都是被20年前已經宣告違憲的一個東西這個其實就是剝奪剛主委講的行政院長的一個提名權那被立法機關直接在條文當中你去定名你怎麼提名審查同意叫我行政院來認命這個"},{"start":6417.932,"end":6445.03,"text":"二十年前已經被講成是違憲的東西,那現在再重新再提出來我相信在立法院可以來做一個討論社會也可以來做一個大家來做一個公斷那獨立機關跟行政獨立還有受立法院監督的這個問題其實這個本來都可以討論你像比如說通傳會、金管會這些都比較獨立機關"},{"start":6446.9,"end":6448.642,"text":"這幾年的獨立運作下來當然立法院對你們有所批評"},{"start":6463.956,"end":6480.984,"text":"那在一個獨立機關你不僅要這個獨立機關取得民主的一個正當性也要去彰顯立法權對行政權的一個制衡可是你去把它做比較獨立性如果越低的它就會跟行政體系越接近比如說國發會、客委會獨立性越高的它就會脫離行政首長的一個掌握比如說金管會還有中選會還有我們通傳會那為了讓它獨立"},{"start":6493.61,"end":6511.908,"text":"那其實他也並完全去擺脫行政權或者立法權的一個監督那保留了行政院長對獨立機關重要人士的一個決定權並把人事同意權來留給立法院避免單一政黨對各獨立機關的一個影響這個其實"},{"start":6514.511,"end":6517.034,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":6534.813,"end":6551.089,"text":"我剛提到就是說大法官釋之613號裡面的內容其實講得非常清楚啦我講得非常清楚喔用簡單的話來講啦就是說立法院現在有很多手段可以對付這個獨立機關你像比如說災難這一次一連串的修法裡面在我看來啊叫做自己憨悶啦 共腐敗啦 不知道要怎麼感動啦"},{"start":6556.837,"end":6559.678,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6580.964,"end":6581.925,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6607.365,"end":6626.161,"text":"談到NCC都是在講泛藍大敗泛綠。NCC委員出來藍綠比是多少?NCC委員名單出現國青取得過半。NCC委員名單都是在談這些,都是在講藍跟講綠,這個怎麼會是我們要的獨立機關啊?所以我是覺得說注意"},{"start":6633.007,"end":6646.039,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、"},{"start":6659.411,"end":6661.692,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案案"},{"start":6683.936,"end":6684.796,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":6709.289,"end":6730.978,"text":"在我看來,這種20年前就兵被宣告違憲的一個條文重新再提出,我看你是笑在心上了,你不好意思把我們這裡入侵了,我不知道,好,謝謝。謝謝鍾委員。等一下就是鍾委員那個詢答結束之後我們休息三分鐘,那接下來我們請鍾嘉斌委員。"},{"start":6743.659,"end":6771.828,"text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關司法官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生,有請陳主委。好,麻煩主委。主委好。請問一下,目前行政院的二級獨立機關有哪幾個?就中選會、公平會跟NCC。那他們都是行政院的?對,就行政院底下。那獨立機關在行政院底下要做什麼事情?"},{"start":6772.392,"end":6774.615,"text":"組織法第四條條文修正草案．第十條條文修正草案．第十條條文修正草案"},{"start":6784.195,"end":6786.016,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":6809.687,"end":6827.893,"text":"組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案 案件中的其中一人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件中的其中一人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件中的其中一人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件中的其中一人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件中的其中一人擬具:「國家通"},{"start":6837.856,"end":6841.318,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":6862.018,"end":6864.261,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":6878.499,"end":6894.541,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案的說明又說中天新聞台不予換照獨立機關的地位受到強烈的質疑。請問主委你所知道的當年中天的換照審查有政治壓力嗎?"},{"start":6895.39,"end":6896.571,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":6920.066,"end":6927.087,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。」案。二）委員蔡旺旺的中天新聞換照申請,你認為黃委員這裡所說的政治壓力是來自哪方面的政治壓力?是要求中天繼續播還是要求中天不能"},{"start":6943.991,"end":6961.581,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第12屆第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16屆第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第21會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第22會期司法及法制、交通委員會組�"},{"start":6965.991,"end":6989.269,"text":"這是當年的黃國昌委員說的那他認為我們NCC尤其是民間專委委員為去戶外部壓力沒有去戶外部壓力沒有去戶來自對岸的壓力讓中天繼續延續他頂住了還記得來往下看613的解釋在去年還是今年有一位參選副總統的候選人他說NCC委員按照政黨比例結果新聞說18年前就宣告違憲了舊的NCC組織法哪裡違憲"},{"start":6991.838,"end":7018.674,"text":"就是剛才所講的基本這個NCC的人事權是在於行政院那這個原來的這個舊的這個組織法裡面是依照所謂的立法院的政黨比例代表制去處理的這違反獨立機關設置的基本原則那被宣告違憲那我很好奇啦其實還有兩個層次啦要NCC獨立機關委員按照政黨案、政黨比例來推薦這個當然大部分都是違憲的但是"},{"start":7019.673,"end":7037.005,"text":"政黨推薦來或者由政黨來組成審查會其實我認為這個可以討論請問主委你知道我們目前哪些政府的機關或部門他的審查委員會立法院組的審查委員會是由政黨比例推薦的嗎"},{"start":7038.021,"end":7065.686,"text":"就我所了解目前應該是有公共電視沒有錯公共電視法董監事公共電視顧名思惠他要公共化不能夠專屬於服務某黨某派但是呢董監事一樣有行政院提名但是呢立法院推薦了10到11到15的一個社會公正人組成審查會審查會當然這個推薦過程就會反映出政黨的比例那麼你認為經過這樣的審查結果可以維持他的一個公共性嗎"},{"start":7066.889,"end":7081.44,"text":"公共性來講是說他是參與可能說強化一些公共參與的就是說審查由立法院審查的時候這些審查的人員是由立法院按照政黨比例來安排的來審行政院提名的董建士等名單你就這樣可以嗎"},{"start":7083.123,"end":7111.42,"text":"公共電視的性質跟NCC不一樣。NCC是一個機關,它有公權力的問題。公共電視是一個媒體。但是我個人是認為啊如果說今天是由行政院來提名委員但是立法院就像立法院我們要審查這些同意權的行使我們修憲委員會其實有本院的委員按照正常比例來分配我們怎麼審查是立法院的事情我認為提名權專屬於行政院但是怎麼審查其實我們立法院來決定那往下看"},{"start":7111.98,"end":7119.847,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員傅崐萁等23人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":7132.839,"end":7144.116,"text":"請問一下目前你所知道的由立法院行使同意權的這些人事案有哪一項可以由立法院來予以撤回?比如說予以把它解職有沒有?完全沒有嘛"},{"start":7147.728,"end":7174.484,"text":"不管是憲政機關總統提名交給立法院來心思審查的同意之後他就任命了甚至原來任命的人也不可以解職他是不是這樣那行政院提來的也沒有嗎中宣委員我們可以立法院叫他解職嗎不行嗎好所以往下看那麼所以呢我認為啊今天呢我們認為我們如果說今天還有一個說法說怎樣往下看再往下看齁因為時間的關係齁如果往上"},{"start":7176.155,"end":7177.737,"text":"立法院第11會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案案"},{"start":7192.819,"end":7202.746,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案 案件,而非根據原來曾經所屬的政黨影響,而非根據原來曾經所屬的政黨影響,而非根據原來曾經所屬的政黨影響,而非根據原來曾經所屬的政黨影響,而非根據原來曾經所屬的政黨影響,而非根據"},{"start":7214.193,"end":7225.782,"text":"但是我們既然要求他要退出政黨活動甚至要退出政黨我還要他用政黨來推薦難道我們認為希望NC的委員由各自政黨來指揮嗎?你希望NC的委員有推薦他的政黨來指揮他嗎?"},{"start":7228.439,"end":7230.54,"text":"立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":7247.972,"end":7248.853,"text":"立法委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":7276.212,"end":7300.155,"text":"所以其實政治制度有很多樣我們不能挑自己想要的目前中華民國本文、正修條文我們的憲政體制連大法官我們行使同意權的國會都沒有提名權都沒有任命權了所以現在對於屬於行政院的二級獨立機關我們要來提出有任命權或有提名權這是很奇怪的最後的結論主席站起來了"},{"start":7300.99,"end":7321.248,"text":"我希望未來當然這個不是由主委你來決定的但是你在卸任之前這兩個訴求我想聽你的意見如果未來我們希望NC委員退出政黨你知不支持那你是不是覺得未來的NC要確保持續運作不能夠藉由不續任條款剛剛有人提到的當"},{"start":7322.893,"end":7337.308,"text":"人事同意有問題沒辦法阻遏的時候,NCC如果缺額他會癱瘓。所以我們要如何確保NCC運作,NCC持續運作是不是符合台灣自由民主法治國家人民的共同利益。"},{"start":7552.957,"end":7578.74,"text":"現在開始開會,那我們請接下來請林思明委員發言來,請主委好,請主委上台謝謝主席主委,今天看到這個NCC拒絕提供我們交通委員會"},{"start":7580.64,"end":7606.949,"text":"要求調閱的相關的資料競電式的相關資料我想我們普遍的感受到NCC到底是不是一個獨立的機關所以你今天的NCC做這樣子的一個決定您剛才回答是您個人的決定所以我們只感受到您真的是傲慢"},{"start":7608.257,"end":7635.729,"text":"真是獨裁專制。」我可以回答嗎?NCC是你一個人說了算嗎?我待會會有提問。您暫時不用回答。我想本月的交通委員會的這個調閱專業小組的開會確定調閱的相關的資料範圍包含禁電式的營運資料、行政調查報告等23個事項。但是NCC的回函"},{"start":7637.162,"end":7663.802,"text":"表示說尚有異議,請交通委員會釐清並釋明。」公文中長篇大論的大意就是不願提供啦!NCC對於競電式的上架社會有這麼多的疑問喔!也提出錄音檔當時的行政院長蘇貞昌他對外宣稱可以不必查"},{"start":7665.151,"end":7689.605,"text":"院長講不必查啦!所以現在立法院交通委員會成立專案小組、調閱小組要來查我想這個很明顯的是依照我們立法院的職權行使法的相關規定也是憲法上所賦予我們立法院有議決相關重要事項這樣的一個職權"},{"start":7691.431,"end":7707.484,"text":"但是NCC卻一手遮顛布給查所以剛才您的回答這是你一個人的決定所以我想就叫主委NCC是不是你一個人說了算"},{"start":7708.743,"end":7729.102,"text":"立法院第12屆第1次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第12屆第13條條文修正草案．立法院第14屆第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第19條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第19條條文修正草案．立法院第20條條文修正草案．立法院第21條條文修正草案．立法院第22條條文修正草案．立法院第23條條文修正草案．立法院第"},{"start":7731.084,"end":7732.265,"text":"請針對我的問題回答我剛才已經很明確的告訴你"},{"start":7752.179,"end":7756.744,"text":"立法院第四條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第四條條文修正草案．"},{"start":7774.227,"end":7791.72,"text":"法律案、預算案、條約、宣戰購等相關的事項,比如說今天可能如果是這涉及到預算執行採購﹖主委,您又岔題了啦我現在講的是我們63條的有關立法院可以一決重大事項這樣的一個職權請問你"},{"start":7796.297,"end":7806.803,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第12屆第13屆通訊傳播委員會組織法第14屆通訊傳播委員會組織法第16屆通訊傳播委員會組織法第17屆通訊傳播委員會組織法第18屆通訊傳播委員會組織法第18屆通訊傳播委員會組織法第19屆通訊傳播委員會組織法第20屆通訊傳播委員"},{"start":7811.966,"end":7814.708,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":7828.3,"end":7829.08,"text":"立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7845.503,"end":7846.164,"text":"組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件"},{"start":7869.929,"end":7886.741,"text":"那我想剛才針對幾位委員的一個詢答您的心態我們覺得非常可疑你是不是覺得說你今天站在這裡這個回答那麼我們委員大家對你有非常多的強烈的這種質詢"},{"start":7889.022,"end":7910.695,"text":"那您是不是抱著一個心態講說我站在這裡幾分鐘我這個回答硬拗強詞奪理就可以了不管委員怎麼樣去論理論法你完全可以依照自己的意識我愛怎麼回答我就怎麼回答完全不理會委員你的心態是不是站在這裡硬拗就可以了"},{"start":7912.073,"end":7925.322,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第18條條文修正草案．一）立法院第12屆第18條條文修正草案．一）立法院第18條條文修正草案．一）立法院第18條條文修正草案．一）立法院第18條條文修正草案．一）立法院第19條條文修正草案．一）立法院第19條條文修正草案．一）立法院第20條條文修正草案．一）立法院第"},{"start":7933.607,"end":7959.299,"text":"我想這是當然是你的強詞奪理的一個說法其實我想我們大家的看法那麼清楚就認為說這個已經那麼具體明確的要跟你調閱資料你還去硬凹講說要交通委員會釐清市民這23個事項所以你還在這邊強詞奪理所以我覺得啊NCC啊如果是這樣效忠一個人就可以了不如廢掉了"},{"start":7960.615,"end":7982.981,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。 bicy,您剛才回答是合一致,不是你一個人說了算。但是我們現在看來,NCC就是您一個人,主委,你一個人說了算的獨裁專制制了。所以呢,真的廢掉了。沒有存在的必要了。好,謝謝。那我們下一位請吳思瑤委員發言。"},{"start":7997.734,"end":7999.978,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法"},{"start":8011.874,"end":8032.707,"text":"我要在這裡說,NCC就應當回歸專業。NCC就要去政治化。你可以不喜歡陳耀祥,你可以不欣賞陳耀祥,但NCC作為一個國家獨立運作的獨立機關,就法論法。"},{"start":8035.189,"end":8044.881,"text":"國會議員的責任是讓NCC的組織法建立一個不論誰執政都能夠穩健運作的制度。您同意嗎?"},{"start":8046.748,"end":8064.201,"text":"我為什麼要說其實NCC不應當這麼政治化的因為NCC掌理的每年有4萬到6萬件的民生相關業務對不對是的我也是經過爬書才知道原來NCC關切的不是這些國會議員每天在那邊"},{"start":8065.282,"end":8077.975,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12屆第12屆第13屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第17屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第20屆第20屆第21屆第21屆第22屆第22屆第"},{"start":8087.885,"end":8109.705,"text":"電信設備的審查到所有國內外電信設備的驗證等等。如果NCC因為政治的心魔被癱瘓了,它被修法惡搞成一個沒有辦法穩健運作的獨立機關,每一天每一個台灣人民"},{"start":8110.726,"end":8124.506,"text":"不論你在什麼場域、不論你是幾歲、你的性別、你的生活也被癱瘓從你用的手機、你看的電視、你聽的廣播、你住的建築物會不會被斷網、被斷訊"},{"start":8126.929,"end":8150.156,"text":"所以請讓NCC回到專業這是我今天很重要的一個原則只是非常的遺憾啊司法法制委員會新國會以來有三個特色第一個就是選擇性跟針對性的修法或立法第二個就是只進行政治性的修法跟立法"},{"start":8151.036,"end":8171.232,"text":"第三）委員就是一再的端出違反憲法的立法或修法。這三個惡法的樣態,NCC組織法極大成了。所以非常的難為。但是我們透過討論的過程,把事實呈現在國人面前下演。"},{"start":8172.679,"end":8192.819,"text":"我為了做這個質詢我很努力去研讀很多的學術論文我手上這個是2006的一個學術論文我國獨立行政委員會組織建制與相關憲政問題之研究我才了解台灣的行政院組織法也好或者是我們行政機關組織形態"},{"start":8194.901,"end":8212.536,"text":"法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案案案案的狀態組成獨立機關最早這個來自於美國發展的一個獨立機關的運作的機制其實早在2002年總統府的政府改造委員會裡頭開始被討論跟倡議然後被上路"},{"start":8213.357,"end":8220.96,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員"},{"start":8243.548,"end":8253.001,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第1次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第1次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第1次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法"},{"start":8260.534,"end":8277.182,"text":"維縣的修法要再一次嗎?18年前提案的是國民黨跟親民黨要設置提名審查委員會依政黨比例原則而且要審查會通過同意的名單才可以提名哦!2006年申請釋憲2006年的7月21號宣告維縣2008年維縣的法律就要重新檢視刪除了"},{"start":8287.996,"end":8309.522,"text":"維縣的修法,立法院還要重蹈覆轍一次嗎?歷史的教訓還不夠嗎?下一頁。我們來看看這一次的修法多離譜啊。傅昆齊委員一個人提兩案,可能其中一案是傅昆齊提案,另外一案是傅齊昆的提案啊。"},{"start":8310.586,"end":8331.284,"text":"前後矛盾自打嘴巴我舉例就任期他第一個提案說可以連任一次下一個提案說沒有限制可以繼續連任相互矛盾自打嘴巴就傅崐萁跟傅琦坤兩個委員的提案"},{"start":8332.245,"end":8354.346,"text":"他們當然審查會的設置、政黨比例的推薦這都違憲的還有呢他寫道相同黨籍者不可超過三位這是傅崐萁的提案可是傅琦昆的提案說呢又要黨籍依據立法院的政黨比例這不就是前後錯誌嗎?產生了矛盾跟漢格嗎?"},{"start":8355.747,"end":8375.653,"text":"當然他也提到離職後三年不能擔任公職或代表政黨參選 這就抵觸了憲法的參政權這是傅崐萁跟傅琦昆的一人兩案下一頁 洪孟楷委員的提案也很離譜我很快的經驗報告呈現在國人面前"},{"start":8376.773,"end":8393.792,"text":"政黨比例委員會這都違憲。還有一個呢人事同意權未過原任委員任期及終止不得延任以及委員總額未達第四條關於人數之規定就在補足前不得議案來表決。換言之就是癱瘓嘛。"},{"start":8395.133,"end":8399.137,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":8413.456,"end":8441.617,"text":"他說委員改為五人其中三人由立法院提名哪一個組織可以這樣行政立法互相分享提名任命權的五個人裡面三個立法院提名兩個行政院提名就您的法學專業有過這樣子的並沒有而且這個本來就違背責任政治的要求是啊從來沒有這樣違背責任政治違反憲法"},{"start":8442.758,"end":8468.555,"text":"立法權來剝奪行政院的提名權．還有溫委員的提案同樣也破壞了任期交錯制來癱瘓NCC的運作。」好,我後面的內容都沒有辦法提了。我要做個結論。違憲的修法還要再來一次嗎?已經被大法官打了嘴巴"},{"start":8469.81,"end":8482.261,"text":"告訴國會不可以再違憲這樣子的條文2008年已經被否決了2024年的國會還要再來一次嗎?"},{"start":8482.261,"end":8491.468,"text":"各位雖然您即將在這個位置上辛苦的奮戰了一段時間這樣的法律如果修過了怎麼辦?"},{"start":8493.561,"end":8496.543,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8524.011,"end":8537.815,"text":"如果您被傅崐萁委員每天這樣痛打歪打您一定做對了很多事我們就依我們的良知來行事違憲的法案萬萬不可加油給您勉勵謝謝接下來我們請謝榮介委員"},{"start":8551.957,"end":8567.063,"text":"主席我請端主委端主委我剛才在岸國聰跟你接觸的時候我有起來跟你表達一個態度這是第一因為你是行政官員來到立法院不管這個委員是國民黨、民眾黨還是民進黨你基本的態度這是不對的"},{"start":8580.571,"end":8581.852,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":8606.226,"end":8621.472,"text":"民進黨的拍手,在這裡你做NCC的機關,收到,隨時你講。我在這裡,同意你用聯合的方式來回答分析,來跟分析對話,這樣好不好?好。你,從提名之後,民進黨一路給你護航,不但有政治性,"},{"start":8635.544,"end":8646.211,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":8660.305,"end":8671.988,"text":"我邀請羅秀燕韓國禄及豪佑義來到台南提供在屏東在你的故鄉獻出一蕊的胸粉紅紅顛顛這個電視台你幫我發錢有沒有 有這個案件有這個案件 最好呢看你輸啊如果有這個案件啦羅清廷"},{"start":8690.853,"end":8696.216,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":8714.927,"end":8717.088,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":8734.78,"end":8738.162,"text":"立法院第11屆第1次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案案案"},{"start":8764.013,"end":8769.776,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員併案．二）委員洪孟楷等23人擬具"},{"start":8787.765,"end":8789.906,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":8805.851,"end":8806.131,"text":"立法院第1次聯席"},{"start":8825.607,"end":8829.991,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案"},{"start":8853.24,"end":8865.63,"text":"你今天你有一個態度說你要回到學校這是有意義還是沒有意義?當然有意義 免管這裡的組織法要修改啦組織法修改可以大家共論啦組織法修改現在是我的責任啊我會照顧你 但是我這堂你會氣流無聲嘛對不對 無聲啦 是你對一個新的行政團隊跟熱情的新的總統起來你 有沒有典型一個"},{"start":8878.732,"end":8881.134,"text":"司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":8906.856,"end":8911.837,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具"},{"start":8934.746,"end":8949.449,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。netesa 立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期"},{"start":8964.537,"end":8968.839,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":8990.834,"end":9017.019,"text":"我們現在先處理臨時提案臨時提案第一案然後請宣讀臨時提案一再修正本建請司法及法制委員會及交通委員會聯席會議作成決議針對陳耀祥主任委員就監督歸管該會之法令惡意錯誤及扭曲解釋屬違法且規避立法院對行政機關之監督屬迴憲亂政之行為破壞我國憲政體制慎據"},{"start":9020.96,"end":9035.13,"text":"應與罪嚴厲譴責並移送檢察院．案人委員傅坤琦、林國成、洪孟楷、翁曉琳、謝龍介、羅志強、林思明。宣讀完畢請問提案委員有無補充說明請說"},{"start":9041.192,"end":9069.378,"text":"這一次這個立法院成立禁電式調閱小組要求NCC要提供相關的調閱文件那麼調閱小組裡面列舉了非常多很重要的文件檔案以及需要這個都是跟禁電式的申涉以及他在後來"},{"start":9071.331,"end":9073.312,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":9092.863,"end":9119.201,"text":"黃國昌委員直詢原來才知道竟然是NCC的主委一個人一手遮天自己就決定了他把NCC是怎麼樣是完成首長制了嗎明明就是合一制機關在面對立法院這麼重要的調閱文件的事項竟然可以由陳耀祥主委自己一個人將他視為是行政事項就決定了"},{"start":9122.66,"end":9141.537,"text":"這種藐視國會的行為而且這個錯誤解釋法令扭曲解釋大法官的這個解釋根本就是嚴重的違背憲法上面權力分立原則違背相關的法令規定就這個部分來說"},{"start":9143.783,"end":9149.546,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案 。此外,陳柱偉的行為基本上已經嚴重違反公務員服務法。我們認為他這樣的態度、這樣的作為應該要移送監察院。請監察院要去"},{"start":9174.359,"end":9192.992,"text":"處理、查辦陳耀祥主委的失職行為。所以在此,包含本人在內的相關委員共同提案,要求應該給予陳耀祥主委最嚴厲的譴責,並且移送監察院。好,柯總商。"},{"start":9206.736,"end":9233.036,"text":"剛才仔細聆聽,偶爾委員首位委員簽名分立原則。你完全錯了啊。誰要講是捍衛憲政體制啊。這大法官729黃國昌自己清楚,不要在那邊笑。黃國昌你自寫的言文就是這樣啊。你寫得正確的喔。你不要這麼正經的。來,讓我來講啦。"},{"start":9239.345,"end":9252.328,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":9264.157,"end":9279.08,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具 «國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具"},{"start":9292.795,"end":9311.982,"text":"來判斷,但是如果說沒有按麥克風,講話還是太大聲,影響到議事,那我會制止。」主席啊,他們稍微稍微騷擾我,我會忍耐啦。我會稍微忍耐。729、44用這樣才連出來。那時候的大法官有翁小英先生、林春生。"},{"start":9312.782,"end":9340.787,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件的解釋解釋說審查終結可不可以調查有文件我要調馬英九跟黃世民的通聯紀錄因為在第一次馬英九執行法黃世民就說你到底你是一個檢察總統跟馬英九通過紀錄電話他只有通過一次我說你再想紀錄兩次我說你死定了調通聯紀錄後來他自己"},{"start":9341.909,"end":9354.011,"text":"跟蘋果日報記者講說常常在通電話那我必須要拿到他通聯、調到他通聯記錄當然事實就是這樣但解釋出來已經偵查結束了"},{"start":9355.819,"end":9358.782,"text":"及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":9375.842,"end":9401.301,"text":"這729解釋就是說為了什麼掙扎終結不可以掉當然是為了我們大灣729事實最嚴重的事實第一個破壞就是黃國昌黃國昌你不要忘記2017年的時候10月28號立法院在請你你在立法院財政委員提案要掉清護案清護案那時候整個文件全部在法院審理中你竟然要掉"},{"start":9403.072,"end":9428.095,"text":"事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第19條條文修正草案．立法院第19條條文修正草案．立法院第20條條文修正草案．立法院第21條條文修正草案．立法院第22條條文修正草案．立法院第23"},{"start":9430.131,"end":9434.953,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":9460.54,"end":9466.183,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9477.332,"end":9504.067,"text":"調資料、要調在調訴訟中的案子、針對今天事、股東多少人、整個金流等等。請問,這可以嗎?當然曾耀祥用729四字來駭昧憲政體制嘛。你們是雙重違憲的。你成立一個教育委員會,既然教育規則通過表決,林國成當召委。"},{"start":9504.963,"end":9526.527,"text":"交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．立法院第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員"},{"start":9534.104,"end":9537.167,"text":"立法院第四條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第四條條文修正草案．"},{"start":9552.85,"end":9579.264,"text":"我請問洪孟楷你為什麼去護航這裏,這才是核心事項,不是一個事情說三人跟你講,一直在講。所以今天我要講清楚,你只要想本身他還會不會宣傳幾次,我就全力而為你研究。所以今天我們要你提這個案子,這個案子你自己要小心,我們不可能跟你贊成的。"},{"start":9584.374,"end":9602.808,"text":"因為今天發言比較踴躍我們現在是我看這樣啦我們用開放登記發言的方式讓大家趕快來登記然後每個委員發言三分鐘因為不然這樣子我們今天是聯席嘛不然到時候沒完沒了大家可能要陪著我到晚上11點"},{"start":9604.609,"end":9618.356,"text":"國昌國昌因為他們剛兩位先舉手我們先讓他講好那還有要發言的麻煩來登記一下"},{"start":9621.477,"end":9632.605,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法"},{"start":9640.799,"end":9661.773,"text":"英國的前首相丘吉爾曾經說過民主國家的國會除了不能讓男人生孩子之外什麼荒謬的事情都做得出來那我想最近在司法法制委員會我們再度看到了又一次荒謬的可能決議在前天已經通過了可能今天聯席會又要再次一次"},{"start":9662.634,"end":9678.957,"text":"那麼我看到這個臨時提案吶我很認真的去尋找想看看有沒有我們在場委員黃國昌委員的簽名吼那顯然黃委員這次並沒有參與這個臨時提案也不能預判他未來待會這個臨時提案處理的時候他有什麼立場"},{"start":9679.818,"end":9702.908,"text":"但我這裡呢有一個黃委員當年在第九屆立委卸任後在2020年11月18號他的臉書上說終於向蔡衍明的中天告別了NCC的委員頂住了政治壓力守住了專業審查決議否決蔡旺旺的中天新聞換照申請今天我們"},{"start":9703.716,"end":9724.422,"text":"陳主委在這個執行台上、備訓台上,針對以國民黨為主的委員的提案,諸多荒謬甚至被大法官宣告違憲,他的條文他繼續拿出來,其實無非大家都看得很清楚,就是在人家說台語說的,不中天的鳥吃鴨丸。"},{"start":9726.209,"end":9753.638,"text":"但是呢這個事情在當年至少我看到的代表時代力量或者不知道該怎麼稱呼代表現在台灣民眾黨的黃國昌委員呢他一樣很肯定當年的NCC委員在當年的組織法之下經過同樣立法院同意權的程序下所任命的主委、副主委跟委員頂住了壓力還有民間專業委員否準了中天的換照申請"},{"start":9754.895,"end":9773.785,"text":"所以當我們看到這個提案內容是一個交通委員會曾經要求進行的調閱專案小組這個是交通委員的事情結果拿到我們交通跟司法法制聯席為什麼今天的委員會要跟司法法制聯席因為要審組織法嘛"},{"start":9776.004,"end":9801.599,"text":"那要審NC的組織法你的臨時提案是拿交通委員會你們調閱專案小組你們的決議有沒有落實請回交通委員會你們好好的去追究而且你們的提案文還寫什麼這些提案的委員呢我看除了洪孟楷委員跟林國琛委員之外其他的都不是交通其他的都是司法法制委員"},{"start":9803.212,"end":9826.928,"text":"也不是只有林國琛委員是交通委員所以真正這個提案要來表示意見的就是林國琛委員嘛他在交通委員會裡面對這個意見他有意見可以去提到交通委員會提其他的司法法制委員的委員沒有參與那天交通委員會的專案調閱小組那你來提這個提議更荒謬的是什麼他說要移送監察院"},{"start":9827.85,"end":9856.585,"text":"其實立法院的委員會陳院會之命我們來審查組織法要做成決議對決議的內容其實我們個別的意見都予以尊重對於最後的決議透過多數決我們予以尊重但是移送監察院這種事情實在不宜在跟交通委員會專案調閱小組無關的司法法制聯席的委員上來做出這樣荒謬的決定"},{"start":9857.864,"end":9877.877,"text":"不曉得我們還可以做出除了叫男人生孩子之外還可以叫用委員會來移送行政院獨立機關的主任委員我覺得提出這樣提案的委員真的要好好的去思考一下要譴責和意志多數決定"},{"start":9879.284,"end":9888.752,"text":"我尊重,但是移送監察院這些文字實在是太荒唐、太可笑,還有太用一句引用一句,太離譜了。」"},{"start":9902.756,"end":9903.939,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9915.502,"end":9935.721,"text":"主席各位同仁這個會期在司法法制委員會很重要的議案叫做國會改革的議案當中重中之重就是立法院職權刑事法裡頭對於立法院調查權的行使只是很可惜國民黨民眾黨的委員害怕自己的調查權違憲"},{"start":9937.683,"end":9960.738,"text":"條文不給在司法法制委員會裡頭逐條審查。」所以今天我也可以藉由這樣一個違憲的臨時提案的內容正好可以闡述立法院過當的行使違反憲法的調查權它到底違反了憲政哪些的原則呢?首先大家可以去看看幾個大法官的釋字案第325號、第585號還有第729號"},{"start":9966.141,"end":9967.582,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":9981.872,"end":10007.222,"text":"分立與制衡的原則．立法院調查權所得調查的對象或事項並非毫無限制。」換言之,大法官告訴我們,立法委員不是你想調查誰就可以調查誰,那樣子的無法無天。釋字585號也告訴我們,調查事項必須與立委行使憲法賦予的職權有重大關聯。"},{"start":10009.218,"end":10035.224,"text":"立委的職權是什麼規範在憲法第63條就是我們的法律案、預算案乃至於條約案、構合案、戒嚴案等等。我想問一下成立了進電視的這個調閱小組的委員會跟立法委員行使的法律案有什麼關係?預算案有什麼關係?重大關聯者在哪裡?那提案委員要講清楚啊。"},{"start":10036.124,"end":10060.464,"text":"我們來看看729號的釋字案大法官又告訴我們什麼很清楚的偵查中之案件立院自不得向其調閱相關卷證已經講了非常多次N次了也就是偵查不公開調閱的案件如果是檢調偵判當中的案件就不得調閱那你們是說不完嗎"},{"start":10063.925,"end":10071.191,"text":"七二九號釋字案再一次說立法院僅能在制度、預算、法律、對檢查機關進行通案監督並無介入各案調閱偵查卷證之餘地"},{"start":10082.02,"end":10104.262,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．司法及法制委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．司法及法制委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制委員會組織法第四條、第八條及"},{"start":10106.063,"end":10134.872,"text":"競電式的調閱小組是在交通委員會裡頭設置的今天你對於這樣一個調閱小組行使的權限居然要到司法法治委員會裡面來找我們來背書至少本席吳思瑤我不願意背書我也不可能為這樣一個離譜的提案背書所以主席您要說明啊今天在司法法治委員會提這樣一個跟司法法治委員會過去審議的議案都沒有關聯的案子"},{"start":10136.033,"end":10152.007,"text":"這個調閱小組不是司法委員會成立的啊在這裡通過這樣一個臨時提案牛頭不對馬嘴提案也到正確的場域正確的委員會去提案啊要不然為什麼司法法制委員會在這裡要跟你們這樣陪葬為你們背書"},{"start":10154.383,"end":10170.546,"text":"我拒絕主席請說明好嗎這一點主席應當說明這是一個交通委員會成立的調入小組為什麼在司法法制委員會來通過這樣一個議案大有問題真的大有問題立法院不要撕削行堂不要狹遠報復啊今天是聯席會議那我尊重聯席會議各位委員的提案"},{"start":10182.995,"end":10188.737,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案﹚立法院第11屆第12屆議會組織法第14屆議會組織法第14屆議會組織法第14屆議會組織法第14屆議會組織法第14屆議會組織法第14屆議會組織法第14屆議會組織法第14屆議會組織法第14屆議會組織法第14屆議會組織法第14屆議會組織法第14屆議會組織法第14屆議會組織法第14屆議會組織法第14屆議會組織法第14屆議會組織法第14屆議會組織法"},{"start":10222.025,"end":10239.382,"text":"好謝謝主席喔然後想先這臨時提案剛剛有些委員認為說這個是在交通委員會提案怎麼可以拿來今天的這個司法法制委員會來提案呢那其實我要提醒一下今天的這個會議叫做司法法制跟交通委員會的聯席啊"},{"start":10240.143,"end":10252.626,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第12屆第13屆立法院第14屆立法院第14屆立法院第15屆立法院第16屆立法院第16屆立法院第17屆立法院第18屆立法院第18屆立法院第19屆立法院第19屆立法院第20屆立法院第21屆立法院第22屆立法院第21屆立法院第22屆立法院第22屆立法院第22屆立法院第22屆立法院第22屆立法院第22屆立法院第22屆立法院第22屆立法"},{"start":10269.331,"end":10294.794,"text":"提到說NCC到底有沒有義務來提供相關的這個審查標準給立法院審查我想從立法監督行政的角度來看的話他是應該是要有義務來提供立法院來審查到底在審相關的這個條文的時候在審核媒體這個聲色的時候他依據什麼樣的法令有沒有受到外部示意的介入有沒有什麼樣的其他的考量"},{"start":10295.254,"end":10298.915,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第四條條文修正草案．立法院第四條條文修正草案．立法院第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":10317.459,"end":10334.522,"text":"還是針對個案會有不同的標準。」我們今天要審查的、要監督的是NCC在行政權上的行使,不是NCC跟任何一個個人的之間他的司法案件。我想我們不會去關說司法,我們也不會想要介入司法,"},{"start":10334.983,"end":10360.493,"text":"但是我們要做立法委員的職責是要了解NCC這個行政部門即便它是獨立機關但它同時也是行政部門行政部門受立法部門來監督天經地義所以如果今天立法委員沒有辦法了解沒有辦法去理解NCC到底用什麼樣的標準去做行政決策的時候那不就表示我們的立法權我們的監督權完全的被這所謂獨立機關所藐視嗎"},{"start":10362.874,"end":10386.062,"text":"雖然說主委即將要卸任但是我想在你任內就像你剛剛提到的在你任內的這段時間所有的業務跟工作還是要由您意見來扛起所以我們才希望這些業務你過去怎麼樣審查的應該要提供給立法院、立法委員來了解到底你的標準在哪裡我們今天要的是一個一致的標準我們要的談的不是個案"},{"start":10387.242,"end":10408.306,"text":"所以今天特別提出的臨時提案我們就是要譴責我們希望說把這個提案留在立法院監督的立法院紀錄裡面讓下一位NCC的主委不管你有沒有留任啦當然應該是不會留任的如果組織法過的話你也不會留任的不管怎麼樣我們把這個紀錄留在立法院讓後續的主委能夠來參考謝謝好謝謝那我們下一位請翁曉琳委員發言"},{"start":10419.895,"end":10444.36,"text":"我在這裡我要提醒大家NCC到底是被誰糟蹋的。NCC成立的時候那個時候的第一版NCC的組織法原本就是參考西方國家德國、法國、美國等等這些先進的民主法治國家裡面成立"},{"start":10445.677,"end":10454.419,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四"},{"start":10474.656,"end":10499.251,"text":"之後再修法才成為現在由行政院院長提名全數NCC委員的這樣的一個做法我必須說民進黨的委員們請你們也多讀點書我們立法院立法委員的重要職責就是要把自己準備好要有充實的法律的素養"},{"start":10500.765,"end":10524.221,"text":"我們現在本席所提的相關的法案我必須說是具有法律的高度我們參考西方的先進國家人家是怎麼去運作獨立機關的不是像現在這樣的情況這個獨立機關啊NCC已經成為高度政治化的機關"},{"start":10525.785,"end":10540.042,"text":"尤其是在民進黨政府執政的期間內將NCC從原來它應該是保持一個專業、客觀、獨立的機關把它推向這個政治、高度的政治化"},{"start":10542.025,"end":10560.379,"text":"本來NCC的組成里面的委員他必須要反映的是社會上多元的意見可是我們看到從民進黨政府2016年執政以來所提名的NCC委員然後組成的委員會做出太多具有高度爭議的案子備受社會大眾的批評"},{"start":10567.608,"end":10577.856,"text":"在這樣的一個情況之下我們能夠說NCC它還能維持當初所設置的精神嗎?它能夠排除來自於上級機關的指揮監督嗎?事實上"},{"start":10583.939,"end":10594.664,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第十條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第十條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．"},{"start":10609.471,"end":10634.807,"text":"基本上完全不尊重立法院的立法的這個這樣的一個職權我們要求調閱的相關的文件講難聽點其實我們如果說是這個有一些資料是在他們現在NC的網站上面就已經可以看到的會議記錄不可以給嗎當時監獄是申請的這相關的文書這有什麼機密為什麼不能夠提供"},{"start":10637.51,"end":10662.857,"text":"總總的他們的這個表現基本上就是完全藐視立法委員的這樣的一個職權所以我必須說我們今天提這個提案是完全就是要去對付像是陳耀祥主委這樣不尊重立法院職權藐視國會的政府官員移送監察院只是剛剛好而已"},{"start":10665.172,"end":10693.358,"text":"下一位我們請羅志強委員發言司司有兩種民進黨的議事規則也有兩種剛剛吳士堯委員說什麼今天為什麼我們司法法制委員會竟然可以去提案譴責跟移送"},{"start":10694.454,"end":10716.087,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四"},{"start":10722.267,"end":10740.712,"text":"到底吳秉瑞到底是蔣幹還是黃蓋第一次吳秉瑞來投票的時候在年金案上面跑來支持國民黨我非常感謝他他可能是這個三國時期孫權的那個陣營的黃蓋然後到民進黨去臥底"},{"start":10746.43,"end":10757.403,"text":"昨天吳秉瑞又不見了更神奇的是明明人不在議場他自己都說他不在結果竟然很神奇的有人帶頭這個不是重點 這重點是什麼"},{"start":10762.028,"end":10778.939,"text":"重點是帶頭這件事情創始人就是我們的牽手觀音吳世耀委員以前牽手觀音吳世耀委員的時候他也不去管他的帶頭如現已發生帶頭爭議他就出來說這是偽造文書好重的罪沒有關係新國會偽造文書請問吳秉瑞昨天"},{"start":10784.002,"end":10804.454,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案的狀況,怎麼又不是偽造文書呢?是不是偽造文書?我就要講,從頭到尾,我羅志強可沒主張是偽造文書。但關於偽造文書這件事情,你明講標準就一大堆嘛。你如果要今天說張三是偽造文書,那為什麼要遇到李氏就不是呢?就像說今天我們來看看"},{"start":10805.543,"end":10812.668,"text":"立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．"},{"start":10836.083,"end":10844.37,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":10861.647,"end":10862.908,"text":"司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10880.848,"end":10903.418,"text":"謝謝主席和我們在場聯席會的各位偉大的政治家我們這個立法院今天的聯席真的是瘋人院這個有時候要針對議案來發言準備一下啦不要這樣撒在黑白肝黑白腿就像我們剛剛偉大的國民黨總召傅坤祺委員他也在內政委員會講這個立法院的任何一個決議"},{"start":10905.1,"end":10910.191,"text":"不能違背憲法的一個規定。」是啊,是如此啊。今天其實啊,最糟糕的就是誰呢?還是一樣"},{"start":10914.362,"end":10932.993,"text":"號稱幹過檢察官二十幾年吳宗憲、趙偉你這個實在是要譴責這種案的提這種案要譴責是要先譴責你為什麼你知道嗎今天我跟傅崐萁委員還有林國成委員連署這幾位的一個臨時提案裡面你就提到的是NCC通傳法務第11300142140號函"},{"start":10936.715,"end":10937.436,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":10954.087,"end":10954.648,"text":"一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":10969.984,"end":10974.968,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等23人擬具 «國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":10989.485,"end":11014.634,"text":"整個監理機關、獨立機關的一個監理或者說整個涉及到民間的他整個公司的一個治理事項是不是立法委員就是說我們這次就叫我們先算出來我們很大我管你公司怎麼治理老子就叫做立法委員要你交出來你就交出來哪有什麼叫公司治理通通都交這樣嗎我們是這樣說我反而會覺得說"},{"start":11019.534,"end":11022.758,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":11032.662,"end":11033.803,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":11056.374,"end":11056.714,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":11072.17,"end":11094.83,"text":"所以我要求主席,我剛才本來是要用會議詢問的方式去講幾文件,但是我很羞慌所以我要跟他說的是,我們這樣不對你涉及到聯席的部分,至少內文的部分因為剛剛翁曉琳委員她在講的部分,她也沒有把這個函拿出來給大家看一下涉及到的爭議範圍是哪一部分嘛,好不好所以朝偉你也應該講這個給大家看一看不是不是不是,我不會請你們這樣亂講啦"},{"start":11100.074,"end":11114.14,"text":"立法委員的職權範圍到什麼地步我都尊重在野黨的職權我也尊重但問題是不是這樣瞞天要價要一個譴責案裡面慎重啦慎重啦就這樣子而已啦我這邊先宣告第一個臨時提案是各位委員的權利"},{"start":11123.851,"end":11147.825,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第"},{"start":11149.537,"end":11151.519,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":11172.715,"end":11187.85,"text":"第二件事有關NCC這一號函我想各位自己有興趣的上網查馬上可以查得到如果有興趣想要閱讀的話下一位我們請黃國昌委員"},{"start":11199.868,"end":11222.367,"text":"謝謝主席實在令人非常難以想像在這個地方討論有關於這個臨時提案的時候民主進步黨的總召柯建民先生發言的時候不是針對議案是在進行人身的攻擊跟謾罵在我們的立法院公報裡面我坐在下面指著我"},{"start":11223.516,"end":11239.189,"text":"連我坐在下面微笑、連中邪這兩個字都說得出來啊這真的是啊讓台灣社會大眾啊知道民主進步黨黨團總召的水準啊第二件事情4至729號"},{"start":11241.731,"end":11254.318,"text":"第4729號是柯建民自己涉及了不法的司法官說竟然還在調閱委員會當中去調取偵查當中的案卷被大法官宣告違憲"},{"start":11256.779,"end":11276.069,"text":"這麼丟臉的事情啊他在國會殿堂裡面再度提起啊我只能用舔不知恥四個字啊來加以形容他要拿慶富列雷劍弊案的調閱小組來相比啊更是一笑大方請問慶富列雷劍弊案的調閱小組有調閱偵查中的卷證嗎?"},{"start":11276.909,"end":11288.12,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第3會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第5會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第6會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第7會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第8會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第9會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第10會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第"},{"start":11297.469,"end":11308.635,"text":"然後拿另外一個正當行使國會權利沒有被宣告的調閱小組來做比例真的是令人感覺到非常非常的遺憾。"},{"start":11309.383,"end":11335.094,"text":"那至於說陳耀祥該不該被譴責該不該被移送監察院我提供三項事實讓各位來予以參考第一個今天他在質詢的時候在背詢的時候承認了回給調閱小組的公文是他自己決定的哇讓人啊瞠目結舌啊原來我們的NCC啊已經變成陳耀祥治了"},{"start":11336.101,"end":11337.902,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11366.722,"end":11374.432,"text":"當我聽到他這樣的發言的時候我必須要說陳耀祥你舔違法律人啊為什麼這樣講因為這個條文的規定當初2007年到2008年這個通保法的規定啊"},{"start":11380.966,"end":11406.466,"text":"這個條文的規定我跟大家複習一下是透過當時的密室協商喬出來的所以我們找不到立法理由曾耀祥所援引的公平交易法組織法是什麼時候訂的是2011年怎麼會2007年訂的法案是穿越時空到了未來去參酌2011年的法案呢有這麼可笑的事嗎?NCC主委"},{"start":11407.327,"end":11416.552,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":11436.372,"end":11458.464,"text":"陳建平函附NCC的函裡面他簽名蓋章負責任的講那些簡訊都是真的全部都是培委傳給他的我剛剛這邊質詢完了以後我實事求是阿我馬上跟當事人求證阿有沒有這件事陳建平說有阿"},{"start":11459.403,"end":11487.663,"text":"我早就跟NCC講啦!不辦嘛!遮掩嘛!這是為什麼立法院要成立調閱小組因為NCC啊混太久了!謝謝!我前一問題講走可以嗎?我剛剛只是臨近洪國昌委員"},{"start":11489.215,"end":11503.542,"text":"其實我講中國那句話,假如對你有不禁止我可以收回,但是為什麼我要講這個?因為昨天我在看電視的時候,你哪個衝在那裡?"},{"start":11506.96,"end":11510.642,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案"},{"start":11535.032,"end":11559.636,"text":"對好我現在講講什麼說中間電視上全國人民在看待欸 洪孟楷這種表情很奇怪請來一個衝這次來交通車要連連和尊也免贏他 也消贏他 我覺得奇怪了這個政黨到底既遺則在這政黨看起來只是洪孟楷的黨吧其他的七位委員從來沒有意見過從來沒有意見過"},{"start":11563.237,"end":11580.922,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第1次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第2次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第3次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第4次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第4次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法"},{"start":11590.784,"end":11608.676,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法"},{"start":11612.782,"end":11614.283,"text":"當年很重要的是馬鞍鎮陣馬鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍鞍�"},{"start":11638.891,"end":11662.222,"text":"立法院第11會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法及法制、交通委員會組織法及法制、交通委員會組織法及法制、交通委員會組織法及法制、交通委員會組織法及法制、交通委員會組織法及法制、交通委員會組織法及法制、交通委員會組織法及法制、交通委員會組織法及法制、交通委員會組織法及法制、交通委員會組織法及法制、交通委員會組織法及法制、交通委員會組織法及法制、交通委員會組織法及法制、交通委員會組織法及法制、交通委員會組織法及法制、交通委"},{"start":11664.087,"end":11665.409,"text":"立法院第四條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":11676.568,"end":11696.977,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法及法制、交通委員會組織法及法制、交通委員會組織法及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及法律及"},{"start":11699.318,"end":11701.521,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案"},{"start":11714.912,"end":11734.652,"text":"我這邊跟大家報告一件事情權宜問題是自己權宜受損的時候不是再扯到馬英九去啦所以你講黃國昌的部分我沒意見所以你講黃國昌的部分我沒意見我們不要再扯到馬英九不在這裡啊"},{"start":11738.196,"end":11759.661,"text":"登記發言者都已經發言完畢那沒有共識的話那臨時提案的部分我們現在就進行表決那現在進行表決我們採用舉手表決的方式表決前我們先清點在場出席的人數在場總共出席委員25位因為今天是聯席會"},{"start":11766.997,"end":11784.565,"text":"因為今天是聯席會議我們今天在場出席委員是25人現在開始表決那贊成者請舉手好請放下反對者請舉手12好"},{"start":11797.489,"end":11824.315,"text":"我們現在宣告表決結果在場委員出席委員25人贊成者13人反對者12人那臨時提案贊成者多數通過主席主席請問一下等一下請議事人員說明一下依照立法院的職權刑事法第四十八條要移送檢察院是委員會決議就可以還是要經過院會的決議來請說明"},{"start":11828.499,"end":11855.425,"text":"主席詢問,惠怡詢問,主席,惠怡詢問,可以詢問嗎?因為剛剛我詢問了主席,主席也認為說移送監察院這個有點奇怪啊對不對,你剛剛也說了嘛,這個移送監察院,那是不是請主席也說明一下這個程序上我們不太理解我們今天是就提案的部分去做表決,那提案如果過的話,那為什麼要我就提案的部分去說明呢?我沒有辦法理解"},{"start":11857.199,"end":11869.914,"text":"後續程序而已啦!會議請問會議請問問起來你要指揮指揮啊指揮主席啊他檢討官獨立行事之前啦"},{"start":11872.665,"end":11885.314,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":11921.755,"end":11929.517,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案 。接下來我們請下一位登記發言的委員蔡壁昌委員發言。"},{"start":11952.316,"end":11959.303,"text":"立法院第11屆第12屆議員會組織法第13屆議員會組織法第14屆議員會組織法第15屆議員會組織法第16屆議員會組織法第17屆議員會組織法第18屆議員會組織法第18屆議員會組織法第19屆議員會組織法第20屆議員會組織法第21屆議員會組織法第22屆議員會組織法第23屆議員會組織法第24屆議員會組織法第26屆議員會組織法第27屆議員會組織法第28屆議員會組織法第29屆議員會組織法第30屆議員會組織法第31屆議員會組"},{"start":11976.318,"end":11993.075,"text":"委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、"},{"start":12000.563,"end":12026.983,"text":"那你叫我去解釋臨時提案的內容的意義是什麼沒有沒有解釋內容解釋程序解釋程序蔡琦三委員說我簡直三次不上台那就自行去選沒有那種事情沒有那種事沒有那種事注意這個才是沒有表決啦注意這個才是沒有表決啦"},{"start":12028.284,"end":12032.246,"text":"組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":12058.082,"end":12079.214,"text":"主席你沒有回答李昆澤委員的會議詢問主席如果你沒有能力解釋我可以替你解釋我可以替主席解釋嗎我會議詢問我會議詢問主席我可以會議詢問嗎"},{"start":12085.654,"end":12101.84,"text":"主席,我要會議詢問,不要無視我,您眼中只有傅昆奇。主席,我可以會議詢問嗎?我要會議詢問,羅志強,你在那邊拍抖音沒有用。你在那裡拍抖音,讓阿賴特工講話。主席,我可以會議詢問嗎?"},{"start":12108.686,"end":12129.822,"text":"會議詢問優先,全部尊重今天議事規則,主席不可以無視於我的會議詢問。」主席我可以會議詢問嗎?要質詢。這樣齁,我們先休息三分鐘。那我再講,"},{"start":12131.465,"end":12150.522,"text":"無效委員你剛說我不會解釋不是我不會解釋我沒有這個義務解釋給你們聽我沒有必要對提示提案的內容的用字潛質去解釋這不是我的義務如果哪一個法律規定我有這個義務我就會履行這個義務請不要亂說話亂帶風向"},{"start":12334.608,"end":12339.001,"text":"立法院第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12348.858,"end":12359.506,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第12屆第13屆議員會組織法第14屆議員會組織法第15屆議員會組織法第16屆議員會組織法第17屆議員會組織法第18屆議員會組織法第18屆議員會組織法第19屆議員會組織法第19屆議員會組織法第20屆議員會組織法第21屆議員會組織法第21屆議員會組織法第22屆議員會組織法第22屆議員會組織法第22屆議員"},{"start":12371.803,"end":12386.789,"text":"剛剛的臨時提案通過後到底是依我們立法院職權行使法第48條他上面寫的是要院會通過才能移送監察院那這個會議詢問要請主席"},{"start":12388.49,"end":12410.835,"text":"主席做宣告,因為我們不是院會,我們做的決議,就算是臨時議案通過了,到底有沒有符合立法院執行法第48條的內容,要請主席做說明嘛。那主席沒有說明,他就才是什麼?繼續詢答,而且還要讓蔡吉山委沒有上台就要把他跳過。本席是就主席的這個宣告,根據議事規則第32條。"},{"start":12413.322,"end":12437.401,"text":"他要繼續進行尋答他沒有我把講完剛剛我們李委員是請主席說明臨時提案是否有一立法院之間新法第48條進行要請主席做說明主席如果不說明要繼續進行尋答他的宣告是這程序上的宣告他繼續進行尋答本席提出對本宣告提出意義所以32條我們就要繼續去拿這個才是"},{"start":12441.945,"end":12444.346,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":12471.22,"end":12476.648,"text":"立法院第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第四條條文修正草案．立法院第四條條文修正草案．"},{"start":12488.664,"end":12494.107,"text":"法定人數不足穩答程序的差事我們現在進行表決我們表決採用舉手表決的方式表決前請先清點在場委員人數"},{"start":12518.914,"end":12519.574,"text":"主席應用權力"},{"start":12543.467,"end":12545.829,"text":"提案提案提案提案提案提案提案提案提案"},{"start":12569.072,"end":12596.92,"text":"組織有另外裁決權啊因為我說提案濟民表決韓國瑜可以說不濟民表決嗎反正表脫民主誰去嘛事業都一樣啊啊不要來講這些有的沒有的啦我們用麥克風啦不是啦不要講這些有的沒有的啦蛤你用麥克風有的沒有的不是我啊那主席啊那主席"},{"start":12599.877,"end":12604.518,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12628.404,"end":12630.886,"text":"好那我們請議事委員拿出簽到簽到簽到簽到簽到簽"},{"start":12655.117,"end":12679.023,"text":"然後在場委員於倡導姓名時贊成者起立答贊成反對者就贊成你的意義啦如果贊成你的對就喊贊成那反對的就喊反對那要棄權的也可以起來喊棄權"},{"start":12681.022,"end":12689.849,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第2會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法"},{"start":12706.913,"end":12714.356,"text":"審法會委員李坤哲委員陳俊宇委員"},{"start":12726.161,"end":12754.17,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第21會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第22會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第23會期"},{"start":12758.362,"end":12778.566,"text":"你這個簽名真的太藝術了啦!好,鐘瑞雄委員贊成啦贊成啦這個應該是林思明委員嗎?然後吳...這應該是吳小...不會有別人吧?吳小委員好,贊成贊成蔡奇昌委員贊成"},{"start":12786.767,"end":12809.904,"text":"和新淳委員許智傑委員陳素月委員許富奎委員傅坤祺委員游浩委員盧明哲委員"},{"start":12814.57,"end":12837.343,"text":"邱若驊委員廖仙翔委員柯建民委員林佩祥委員黃建豪委員翁曉琳委員陳雪生委員"},{"start":12843.015,"end":12870.191,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第21會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第22會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第23會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第24會期"},{"start":12874.014,"end":12874.555,"text":"下個會期"},{"start":12887.01,"end":12888.391,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12914.497,"end":12918.601,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":12938.753,"end":12943.274,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12963.948,"end":12991.241,"text":"跟各位委員報告我們剛剛點名表決的結果在場出席委員26人贊成者12人反對者14人但是呢因為本案贊成者未過半那依據立法院議事規則第32條亦未獲出席委員過半數贊成時能維持主席之宣告"},{"start":12992.141,"end":13015.715,"text":"這是在議事會的第32條好那這樣子的話就是我們就維持主席的宣告那請繼續詢答那接下來我們請蔡其昌委員發言繼續開下去啊不知道一直開下去恭喜恭喜"},{"start":13040.1,"end":13049.925,"text":"謝謝主席主席如果你要叫我第一遍我走一趟,我想說我就不入閣還是說想久不在委員會質詢,現在制度都改了我就不想要質詢"},{"start":13052.358,"end":13070.688,"text":"來請陳主委麻煩陳主委主委好這個針對NCC基本上本席的看法大概立法院分三個層次就教你第一個層次是對你個人不滿那種充滿洩憤、情緒性的攻擊"},{"start":13075.219,"end":13087.285,"text":"那本席這個不是我的專長排解私人之間的恩怨這個不是我樂意做的事情所以這個本席不問第二個部分對於NCC的政策"},{"start":13088.632,"end":13109.204,"text":"政治這個政策你的決定是否涉及違法?這個部分很簡單本席一向的態度就是政策不滿意我們的民主國家台灣是一個民主國家我們的民主國家裡面叫做責任政治也就是你政策做錯了執政黨要承擔因為選民會透過投票"},{"start":13109.904,"end":13136.596,"text":"把責任歸屬把他搞清楚這個叫責任政治至於如果有涉及違法那就直接移送法辦我想這個也沒有什麼本席也非常支持如果有違法就直接讓他移送這個也沒有什麼但是本席今天要把重點放在制度就是我們到底立法院可不可以透過NCC的組織法的修法"},{"start":13138.113,"end":13164.991,"text":"讓整個國家的責任政治跟權力分立的原則蕩然無存。」我想今天有委員提案說要把NCC的組織法來加以修法對NCC委員產生的方式有不一樣的意見委員提案當然沒有問題但是本席回來當立法委員之後我只強調一點"},{"start":13167.765,"end":13189.552,"text":"臺灣是一個民主國家民主國家很重要的精神我們在於權利分立也就是行政權做什麼立法權做什麼那行政權做什麼立法權做什麼最終我們在責任政治的架構底下該違法的該被處分的就選民會做裁判這個就是這個責任政治"},{"start":13190.219,"end":13218.751,"text":"那如果今天啊閣員可以由這個政黨比例代表那請問一下這個決策到底是哪一黨要來買單因為你們又是合一支這個決策要哪一黨這個就違背了這個責任政治的原則那另外呢這個權利分立啊其實更清楚到底誰這個這個行政立法權要不要干預行政權其實啊如果這個權利分立原則大家要把它破壞掉"},{"start":13220.545,"end":13239.823,"text":"其實也不用那麼複雜,大家也可以去修法,修憲法修成說乾脆隔遠也按照政黨比例這個就是台灣要走向哪一個國家,我們現在就是權力分立的原則所以我想這個態度其實很清楚"},{"start":13240.902,"end":13268.735,"text":"所以本席我沒有什麼要你特別回答因為這個涉及到權利分立跟責任政治不是你NCC主委可以在這裡回答的問題只是本席要強調立法院國民黨拿到了多數但是國民黨拿到了多數可不可以違背這個權利分立的原則你看談建設預算國民黨用特別條例"},{"start":13269.969,"end":13293.68,"text":"自己決定了該做什麼建設、要做在哪裡、要多久完成、要編多少預算然後呢那這樣的話我們到底權利分立在哪裡、行政權到底要做什麼因為你立法權都透過特別條例把這個施政的重點、執政黨施政的重點要做在哪裡、什麼時候做、多久要完成然後呢預算要編多少都把它搞定了"},{"start":13294.48,"end":13316.232,"text":"另外政策我們有電駕審議委員會大家草也可以有不同的主張但是做成政策的決定來取代電駕審議委員會那這也違背權力分立的原則現在人事權的任命執政黨也總統算出來他也有民意基礎他不是自己報名就可以做"},{"start":13318.226,"end":13324.27,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":13339.011,"end":13351.404,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法"},{"start":13354.059,"end":13371.129,"text":"國民黨只要提案他還是會通過嘛,因為國民黨是多數嘛。多數黨也是要有一個基本責任啦。不能說你多數黨,你這個責任政治在哪裡,權力分立的原則在哪裡,你就要為所欲為,違法亂紀。這就是我今天對於這個會期以來幾乎都在談這個事情啦。"},{"start":13376.412,"end":13404.686,"text":"所以我覺得這個是今天所謂的根本我想所有民眾對於這個第11屆的立法委員開議到今天我想這個今天也是爭議的所在到底這個立法權你要全面的來你國會拿到多數你要全面的把行政權做這樣的處理我覺得這個其實是本席比較沒有辦法接受所以我想藉著今天的質詢本席要對這個問題提出這樣的一個看法那最後我想這個"},{"start":13406.254,"end":13408.497,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":13426.327,"end":13445.064,"text":"應該對會議詢問作出裁釋,不管這個裁釋委員滿不滿意,但是主席可以作出這個裁釋。那主席如果不裁釋要進行,恐怕這個爭議就會來啦,這個爭議就會出現。那對於剛剛那個到底可不可以移送,你看喔,立法院職業刑事法第48條裡面很清楚地告訴大家,"},{"start":13445.825,"end":13464.633,"text":"立法院吊閱文件時拒絕、拖延或隱匿不提供者,經立法院院會的決議,可以將其移送監察院,依法提出糾正、糾舉或彈劾。48條裡面很清楚的,就白紙黑紙寫在這。我們國民黨倒數,就在委員會間期要跟他說,在這就要準備。這48條的法律條文就寫在這,白紙黑紙寫得這麼清楚。"},{"start":13474.261,"end":13478.323,"text":"立法院第11屆第1次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":13490.97,"end":13493.172,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案案"},{"start":13526.245,"end":13553.78,"text":"謝謝那事實上在我開始諮詢之前還是要來講一下剛剛李昆哲委員的一個會議詢問我覺得主席沒有處理這是主席今天我覺得比較遺憾的地方那就算主席剛剛有說你沒有責任義務要針對提案的內容來做說明那顯然就是議事人員有責任要來提醒你"},{"start":13554.48,"end":13560.147,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":13567.122,"end":13568.523,"text":"施指（施指（施指（施指（施指（施指"},{"start":13593.965,"end":13618.312,"text":"主席,我們不是不尊重你喔。召委當然有絕對的權利,但是召委還是必須要尊重職權行使法還有這議事規則喔。所以我在提醒剛剛李昆澤他提的這個會議詢問從頭到尾都被主席跳過。我覺得這是不合規矩也不合規定的喔。我是提醒主席希望以後我們能夠照著立法院的職權行使法還有議事規則來走喔。那接下來我們請陳耀祥主委。"},{"start":13626.914,"end":13649.926,"text":"自我剛剛說的這個議事人員的私職我覺得應該該怎麼處理就應該要處理主委你好主委我想今天從頭到尾其實都只有一個很明確的就是剛剛大家要講的制度建立我們憲法下的一個權力分立還有我們這個憲法制度下裡面獨立機關該怎麼行使它的職責"},{"start":13651.368,"end":13665.988,"text":"司法院大法官有講過行政議題的原則所以我們立法院的這個提案到底能不能逾越這個所謂的行政權我想是今天最主要的論戰對不對那主委你認為你夠專業嗎"},{"start":13668.575,"end":13670.756,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":13685.385,"end":13713.81,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。adequate to be nominated as NCC committee members.而且NCC委員到目前為止還要我們立法委員來行使同意權所以大家可以就NCC委員大的專業到底夠不夠格適不適任當然可以在立法院裡面在審議的時候都可以提出詢問但是"},{"start":13714.85,"end":13715.492,"text":"但是呢在詢問的過程當中呢絕對不是因為要推翻這個制度而提這些案子啊"},{"start":13723.345,"end":13746.06,"text":"之前有委員說我們今天就是因為接下來要審NCC委員的資格所以呢我們現在來提這個組織法的修法這個一陣言辭的說這沒問題可是問題是提的這個組織法的修法法案是違憲的那怎麼會沒有問題呢我們立法委員自己可以提違憲的法案嗎我們不應該走回頭路"},{"start":13750.202,"end":13764.969,"text":"每個委員都知道,這個都是可以去Google。19年前在成立NCC的時候,當時候他們就有藍營,他們呢政黨比例制,雖然通過了行政院就提起視線,"},{"start":13766.721,"end":13793.05,"text":"提起釋憲的結果是什麼?就是司法院大法官就宣告嘛NCC委員依政黨比例制是違憲的嘛是逾越這個而且是干涉這個行政權嘛你看剝奪行政院之人事決定權違反責任政治跟權利分立的一個原則嘛所以如果今天我們在這個委員會在討論這個NCC組織法的修法法案的話"},{"start":13794.19,"end":13797.773,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":13814.54,"end":13827.122,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,以及其中一項通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及其中一項通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及其中一項通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及其中一項通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及其中一項通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及其中一項通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及其中一項通訊傳播委員會組織法"},{"start":13842.825,"end":13846.347,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具〈國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具"},{"start":13869.159,"end":13870.62,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":13887.93,"end":13892.392,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案﹚二）委員傅崐萁等41人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案﹚二）委員"},{"start":13915.066,"end":13915.747,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":13946.639,"end":13973.369,"text":"主席大家好我想主委你就坐著就好了因為你回答也是已經都一樣了啦其實我是很感慨啦就從電價國民黨的投票表決阻止這很明顯就是違反行政跟立法的權利"},{"start":13975.509,"end":14000.42,"text":"剛才欣淳也提到NCC政黨比例這個20年前19年前就已經事先過了也很清楚了我想不只是執政黨清楚在野黨應該也非常的清楚包括剛剛蔡其山委員提到的連那個建設的那個特別條例如果可以提一個"},{"start":14001.961,"end":14031.11,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條文"},{"start":14032.244,"end":14048.368,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第1次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第2次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第3次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第4次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第5次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第6次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第7次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第8次聯席會議及法制、"},{"start":14061.397,"end":14085.125,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案﹑三）委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案 案﹑三）委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案 案﹑三）委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案 案﹑三）委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案 案﹑三）委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案 案﹑三）委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案 案﹑三"},{"start":14088.652,"end":14110.956,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第18條條文修正草案．一）立法院第12屆第18條條文修正草案．一）立法院第12屆第18條條文修正草案．一）立法院第13條條文修正草案．一）立法院第14條條文修正草案．一）立法院第15條條文修正草案．一）立法院第16條條文修正草案．一）立法院第17條條文修正草案．一）"},{"start":14116.738,"end":14145.085,"text":"預算案、法律案、條約案,這個行政院是一定要有所作為。但是呢,如果是像重大政策,其實他是可以不理的。但是呢,針對今天我們要調的NCC的人事組織案,這個是屬於法律案。這個如果過了之後,行政院是不能不理的。除非就是再提復議。"},{"start":14146.408,"end":14155.516,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四"},{"start":14175.066,"end":14182.09,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第12屆第13屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第20屆第20屆第21屆第21屆第22屆第21屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22�"},{"start":14203.684,"end":14232.106,"text":"那對付議案如果不通過國民黨不作罷要提不是信任案就倒閣嘛倒閣那就再來一次嘛倒閣之後當然就解散立法院我相信人民要在玩看到立法院這樣子亂玩人民也會做最後的決定啦其實我一直覺得啊沒有就過去議到最後啦啊你們就來提不信任案啊我們就來解散國會啊都停算一百"},{"start":14233.117,"end":14235.938,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":14256.124,"end":14261.869,"text":"委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案。"},{"start":14280.039,"end":14285.302,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一．二）委員洪孟楷等23人擬具"},{"start":14304.412,"end":14318.119,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13條條文修正草案．立法院第14條條文修正草案．立法院第14條條文修正草案．立法院第15條條文修正草案．立法院第16條條文修正草案．立法院第17條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第19條條文修正草案．立法院第20條條文修正草案�"},{"start":14339.73,"end":14341.591,"text":"謝謝主席請主席邀請陳主委麻煩陳主委謝謝"},{"start":14347.616,"end":14354.744,"text":"主委午安今天司法法制跟交通委員會聯席就是針對我們NCC的這個組織法的一個修正案那我們看到今天有幾位國民黨的委員提出了針對我們NCC組織法提出這個修正的草案那主要大概就是三個重點"},{"start":14366.877,"end":14367.858,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案案"},{"start":14391.338,"end":14397.065,"text":"其實我們來回顧一下就是剛剛很多委員都有提到了事實上在19年前在2005年的時候那時候是阿扁執政那在立法院的話是國親兩黨是實質的過半"},{"start":14406.596,"end":14423.524,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法"},{"start":14428.766,"end":14437.254,"text":"大法官釋字第613號也做出了這樣子的一個解釋大法官釋字第613號的解釋認為這樣子的一個提案是違憲的那違憲的這個理由主要兩個"},{"start":14445.942,"end":14458.487,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文"},{"start":14474.514,"end":14479.256,"text":"將NCC委員提名人數以政黨比例推薦,實質上侵犯人事權、行政權,實質剝奪。」在之前,大法官就做出了釋字第613號的解釋,已經非常清楚了。我們很遺憾的就是說,今天國民黨仍然再次提出這樣的一個違憲案。"},{"start":14502.406,"end":14506.51,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院"},{"start":14524.468,"end":14552.984,"text":"後來我們有一個最有名例子就是說我們的七位委員裡面有一個所謂四人班跟三口組這個是當然是戲稱但是說會產生整個在運作上來講的話因為內部高度的對立很多的政策或是政務是沒有辦法順利推動所以後來在那時候我記得是在國民黨執政的時期他們當時是修法後來在委員提名的時候就直接指定誰為主任委員誰為副主任委員是這樣的"},{"start":14553.584,"end":14565.33,"text":"那我們也看到這個文件過去的這個文件的一個記載在一百年的時候民國一百年12月14號的時候這個也是經由立法院修正這個NCC組織法第四條的規定將這個主任委員及副主任委員互選的規定把它改為就是由這個行政院院長來提名任命然後經由立法院來行使同意權"},{"start":14579.718,"end":14580.739,"text":"立法院第11會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第十條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":14605.894,"end":14607.716,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具 «國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":14630.055,"end":14645.531,"text":"制法輪替之後2008到2016年8年國民黨也執政了8年了也是一樣是依照這樣子的組織法在運作嘛對不對也是由他們來提名任命嘛對不對那如果說他們對這樣的一個制度"},{"start":14646.192,"end":14646.592,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":14669.006,"end":14669.968,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":14684.309,"end":14685.31,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":14704.211,"end":14717.316,"text":"立法院的委員來來去去,沒有一個人可以保證永遠是贏家,一直待在立法院。可是我們的國家正常的運作,我們就是要靠制度嘛。所以我們希望我們所有的委員要深思。謝謝。謝謝委員。現在我們請徐富奎委員。"},{"start":14732.822,"end":14734.585,"text":"謝謝主席我們有請陳主委請主委"},{"start":14739.934,"end":14757.548,"text":"主委辛苦我記得上次我們在交通委員會的時候我也有諮詢過主委主委有說一定是要回去學校加班我到7月31日後要回去就要加班因為這個政治的羅馬經濟場看起來是讓人休息做老師比較單純"},{"start":14766.235,"end":14793.841,"text":"所以我想今天我昨天回屏東那有很多的鄉親也知道今天我們要來針對這個NCC的組織法做修正蓋在我們的鄉親又叫我等了你要把你勾勒要做一個人說的這個不愛做的最大所以我請主委要堅持就是我們的專業跟所謂一個獨立性應該該做的要做這樣你未來的歷史定位我相信大家會對你困難"},{"start":14797.902,"end":14813.128,"text":"國民黨委員提出的這個版本不僅是走回頭路而且又把違憲這個事情又重提一次所以我在這也要請教主委主委將對這次國民黨委員提出的版本你個人的看法"},{"start":14814.806,"end":14839.905,"text":"這個是走回頭路嘛因為NCCD獨立機關的設計是盡量它讓它中立去政治然後多元嘛啊你的政黨比例是就是把政黨的這個所謂的相關的影響力又加入變成在獨立機關裡面部這個跟它本質上就是有衝突所以當時大法官才會解釋說這個跟這個本身有違憲的問題因為本期也是媒體出身啊那我們都很"},{"start":14841.206,"end":14846.388,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具"},{"start":14857.472,"end":14881.701,"text":"那尤其這次國民黨委員提出的草案裡面有一個更離譜的就是所謂一個免職的規定包含主委、副主委跟委員只要有4種以上包含廢辭職務、因案羈押起訴甚至影響機關信譽還有個人執行行為的失職行為得經立法院連署經過不信任投票予以免職哇這知識體大捏"},{"start":14883.101,"end":14885.523,"text":"立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":14900.652,"end":14928.122,"text":"通訊是會的,因為根據我們來說,就是我們的組織裡面的規定,獨立機關要實施職權是所謂的不受政治干預嘛,那你看他這個免職,免職規定本來現在就有了,他再加一個說其他組織影響機關心意及個人執行之務,根據我們這就是一個不確定的法律概念,他要不要去干預,他就用這個方式去處理嘛。對,所以在這裡本身也是在提醒我們立法院所有的委員,這個當然固然這個提案,這個提案是我們這個職者,"},{"start":14929.923,"end":14942.228,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組"},{"start":14950.231,"end":14952.793,"text":"立法院第四條條文修正草案案件事宜與其提任時視同出缺。」"},{"start":14968.385,"end":14982.956,"text":"立法院第14屆第11會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14屆第12會期司法及法制、"},{"start":14997.267,"end":15000.288,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":15024.336,"end":15042.536,"text":"因為這個消遣委員一個是離職,這個公園服務法還有我們的組織法有關於這個旋轉門條款的規定,所以我們當時表示說為什麼想震驚和遺憾,因為消遣委員基本上來講的話在我們會內已經擔任從事務官開始擔任起,所以他對我們的業務非常的熟悉。"},{"start":15043.937,"end":15070.751,"text":"一般來講表現是很正常沒想到是反而離職後來講出現這個議題啦所以這個部分來講的話當然就是該負的法律責任或是相關的責任因為他已經是人民了平民了他已經不是委員了所以這個還是由檢察官來處理啦最後一個我想我們基層檢察官有組成一個叫做建清檢改的一個單位他們對我們NCC的一個打詐表現很不滿意啦"},{"start":15071.351,"end":15087.648,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通"},{"start":15089.65,"end":15117.531,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案案。厲信委員也提出所謂的NCCU應該在電信法中直接納管所謂一個虛擬行動網路的一個經營者叫NVNO的部分而不是有行動網路業者來管理那我想NCCU會採納這個意見嗎?我們現在新的辦法裡面本來對MMO、MNO都會要去做監理負責這個部分來講的話我們未來來講在電信管理法本來我們現在已經有啟動那個修法小組也在討論這個議題都在處理"},{"start":15119.172,"end":15121.793,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":15156.704,"end":15165.447,"text":"好,接受請吳宗賢委員質詢。你不就要來給我敬禮一下。好,我們請,呃,主委。來,我不會請你的,你,要叫警察來。"},{"start":15184.724,"end":15188.847,"text":"現在請我們來自屏東的丹瑤雄主委。好,主委好。來,主委。"},{"start":15203.902,"end":15224.817,"text":"昨年6月28號我們台灣有舉辦一個世界新聞媒體的年會開幕那當時呢副總統賴清德出席的時候他就致詞說新聞自由是台灣的核心價值那而且說台灣的媒體可以報導任何想報導的內容也可以不受拘束的批評政府請問"},{"start":15226.238,"end":15249.803,"text":"主委認同這句話嗎?那我請教主委齁因為剛剛黃國昌委員有提到說你今天一早就到立法院之後就去民進黨黨團嘛那你有同時去國民黨或民眾黨的黨團嗎?那個黨團的邀請我當然會去啊就基本上我們要溝通的相關的法案或預算這個本來就是主委的責任"},{"start":15250.503,"end":15251.083,"text":"國際通訊傳播委員會組織法第1條黨政軍退出媒體"},{"start":15269.87,"end":15294.611,"text":"但你有做到這個嗎?那為什麼你來你就直接去民進黨團拜會?我是一個政務官這個是規範我們黨政軍退出媒體是規範我們媒體本身那我這個政務官當然在來國會本來就是在各黨團裡面要拜會就像我們比如說各委員如果說像交友會上任的話我們也會去拜會各個委員一樣那你今天來這邊接受詢答你都不知道要迴避喔?"},{"start":15295.372,"end":15297.358,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":15305.219,"end":15310.9,"text":"你之前做了那麼多事我們也都很清楚我沒有問你這個問題我現在先跟你談第一個問題請問一下你們最近北高行109年數字1435號中天電視換照的你們的敗訴理由是什麼"},{"start":15329.343,"end":15343.087,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第21會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第22會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第23會期"},{"start":15354.19,"end":15357.052,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案案"},{"start":15377.26,"end":15399.281,"text":"我來幫你講他說你應該準用107年2月8號的審查辦法的評分基準但是你們卻用109年的那我覺得這個是不是很離譜那如果照你們這樣講那你在學校當老師那學生評分標準可以到時候改來改去嗎?"},{"start":15399.881,"end":15402.844,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案"},{"start":15419.821,"end":15443.26,"text":"今天這個標準不是只有在中天,所謂的包括中天、中澳台甚至其他的新聞台灣都是同一道標準,沒有這個問題我跟你講喔,NCC現在在很多人的眼中,台灣的媒體在大部分人的眼中我覺得怎麼樣大家心裡都已經有定見了啦那我也尊重你是從學界來的,但是呢我今天看到的北高型的判決它根本就不是你的說法嘛"},{"start":15443.66,"end":15454.384,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組�"},{"start":15473.371,"end":15500.928,"text":"我剛說的全部是依照北高型的判決來論述你也不用跟我解釋那麼多如果你們有意見你之後你再去上訴之後你們再去提你們的意見那我再請教你下一個問題來那個我們這一次有委員會有調查委員會有去跟你們調閱資料調閱那個禁電室的資料為什麼可以不給"},{"start":15501.806,"end":15516.889,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第19條條文修正草案．立法院第19條條文修正草案．立法院第20條條文修正草案．立法院第21條條文修正草案．立法院第22條條文修正草案．立法院第23條條文修正草案．立法院第24條條文修正草案．立法院第27條條文修"},{"start":15531.791,"end":15556.49,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第3會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法"},{"start":15560.993,"end":15570.2,"text":"你先不要講話你現在NCC是立法院的上級機關嗎今天立法院跟你要東西爽就給不爽就說你東西不符合729的規定是這樣子解釋的嗎"},{"start":15575.37,"end":15582.092,"text":"立法院第14屆第11會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16屆第17屆第18屆第19屆第20屆第21屆第22屆第23屆第24屆第27屆第28屆第28屆第29屆第30屆第40屆第41屆第41屆第41屆第42屆第42屆第42屆第43屆第44屆第45屆第46屆第47屆第47屆第47屆第48屆第48屆第49屆第49屆第50屆第50屆第51屆第51屆第52屆第52屆第52屆第53屆第53屆第53屆第54屆第54屆第54屆第56屆第56屆第57屆第57屆第57"},{"start":15601.996,"end":15628.91,"text":"這個跟培委是不是被告也完全無關我不懂為什麼你們可以覺得這樣我不爽就不給你們我跟你講啦之前慶富案的時候調查人家就沒有那麼多意見啦立法院要跟他調資料他們就該給的就都給為什麼今天到NCC來之後就可以不用給另外你們審照是依據衛星傳播電視法所以你也不要跟我說這跟法律案完全無關"},{"start":15630.291,"end":15654.448,"text":"你也不要跟我說這個跟國家重要事項無關因為言論自由就是憲法保障的憲法保障的人民基本權利第二章只要是跟憲法保障有關的這個都是國家的重要事項更何況民進黨整天就是要言論自由言論自由他從來沒有跟你從來沒有但是他都沒有做到我最後跟你講一個東西阿拜託主席最後齁"},{"start":15657.489,"end":15662.077,"text":"我從來不覺得我們台灣是制度發生問題"},{"start":15663.683,"end":15687.981,"text":"我自己這段時間看下來問題都在人啦制度都沒有問題所有的制度設計都非常的好結果到我們台灣來所有的制度都被人在玩弄要嘛你們就鑽肉洞要嘛你們就是去濫用權力我今天看到的就是這樣NCG的存在非常棒這也是言論自由保障的一環但是就是有人"},{"start":15688.721,"end":15713.054,"text":"人去濫用這個制度濫用這個權限用這個東西去做他的政治攻擊包括我們的監察院也是一堆的濫用監察權去做政治攻擊包括一堆的濫用NCC的權利去做政治攻擊這個就是我看到的制度制度沒問題但是濫用的是人好謝謝各位制度沒問題就不應該修法嘛好謝謝委員感謝吳委員等座委員"},{"start":15718.599,"end":15736.849,"text":"制度原本設計沒有問題,就是人濫用制度,所以我們今天不得不就組織法去修法,更嚴謹去排除這些濫用權利的這些人。今天制度原本設計非常美好,但是就是有人濫用,濫用之後逼得我們不得不去修改制度。"},{"start":15737.549,"end":15751.76,"text":"我要告訴你就是這個,其他你不用再發言了。不管有什麼樣的情緒啦,有人說你既然就是政府官嘛,你維持對本人的適當、基本的尊重,這是應該的。"},{"start":15753.601,"end":15768.431,"text":"吳委員剛才在跟你講的,你對不一樣的媒體用不一樣的標準審查,這做內部檢討就好嘛。做內部檢討,你如果認為說問心無愧,那你就對我刷臉嘛。你這麼跟委員一張一張地保管,我告訴你,跟民進黨的委員看你意見不一樣,你這樣我永遠會跟你表達一樣的意見,好不好?我們南部人都很單純的嘛,對不對?"},{"start":15780.697,"end":15781.601,"text":"後來本會的協訓三分鐘"},{"start":16006.328,"end":16007.168,"text":"主席,謝謝,麻煩請陳浩翔主委。"},{"start":16032.322,"end":16057.849,"text":"請教今天早上您來開會之前也先到民進黨黨團是民進黨黨團邀請你還是你主動去民進黨黨邀請民進黨黨團邀請你是用什麼樣的室友那就是今天我們組織法要修正要聽聽我們的意見要聽聽你們意見除了你給的這個書面報告以外還要再聽聽你們意見因為這個本來很受涉及比較專業的部分委員有些對於這些相關的這個組織運動民進黨團主動邀請你什麼時候到的"},{"start":16060.95,"end":16061.91,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":16091.997,"end":16095.419,"text":"有關會議記錄嗎?七月三十一號你有講說你到期了你也不續任是不是?那其他三位委員勒?"},{"start":16111.272,"end":16130.348,"text":"如果說現在我們看起來昨天行政院提出來的名單根本就是跟媒體報導一模一樣之前在帶風向、測風向還有媒體大亨介入斧鑿斑斑這樣的名單送來國會要國會同意根本就痴心妄想"},{"start":16131.365,"end":16158.955,"text":"所以逼國會要把這個名單退回既然我們國會要把這個名單退回有可能到7月31號到任之前委員還不容易產生那其他三位委員他們現在的態度是什麼這可能要問他們個人的意願那您沒有掌握嗎基本上來講我們學界的委員應該都會想回去了只是說至於其他我們翁副主委他因為現在被提名為主委他會不會留下來這要問他才清楚"},{"start":16159.895,"end":16176.542,"text":"所以其他委員除了你以外學界的委員也都會離開表達這種意見但是這個最重要意見要問他們才清楚不要讓本席再看到不要讓國人再看到7月31號之後你們幾位委員還進入NCC"},{"start":16177.765,"end":16179.786,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":16205.305,"end":16212.295,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法"},{"start":16221.536,"end":16224.139,"text":"內部討論?內部討論有經過相關的委員會議程嗎?各別委員?你們有召集委員?還是問?簽合公文?不用簽合公文,我們內部討論交換過,這個接下來要怎麼去處理?"},{"start":16243.083,"end":16253.094,"text":"本席特別看了一下你們在每個禮拜三下午的委員會的時候也沒有召開針對這部分的相關議程所以"},{"start":16254.383,"end":16273.616,"text":"根本就是主委一個人決定,讓本席合理懷疑根本就是主委一個人決定,跟委員是不是所有都知道其實是有相違背的。」這個不是在我們組織法第九條裡面所稱的提到委員會決議的事項嗎?所以我們有接到文以後我們也跟委員說文報告所以內部有經過討論交換意見過。"},{"start":16276.613,"end":16277.594,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":16291.001,"end":16310.01,"text":"交通委員會之前上一屆在交通委員會四年每一次質詢的時候本席也希望就事論事但是讓國人最不滿意以及讓國人沒有信賴的NCC一直逐段上升變成是最不滿意的機關前三名啊主委真的難辭其咎我也同意剛剛朝委的講法"},{"start":16311.07,"end":16329.908,"text":"制度設計出來一定都是有符合當時的一個時空環境但如果人故意要去知法犯法玩法的話什麼樣制度都有漏洞為什麼今天要修法我本席為什麼要提出來我就直接當面告訴你"},{"start":16330.589,"end":16353.63,"text":"就是因為要防小人就是因為當初制度設計的時候沒有想到說有執政者可以那麼的厚顏無恥到濫用這樣的一個制度也因此我們才要來修正法令修正制度讓制度更加的完善這個是法治精神這也請主委要尊重立法院修法是立法委員的職責"},{"start":16354.671,"end":16381.285,"text":"不是你一句講說不用修法就不用修法為什麼要修法你這樣的一個質問根本就是罔顧你是行政官員那個職責最後本席一個忠告上一次質詢的時候我有講過本來期待你能夠向周楚除三害把中天新聞台官台的內幕"},{"start":16382.642,"end":16404.653,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第"},{"start":16412.677,"end":16439.265,"text":"主席本席給你的最終忠告謝謝謝謝委員的忠告謝謝接下來我們請傅坤祺委員在民國78年第一次看到民進黨在組黨之後在"},{"start":16443.55,"end":16470.889,"text":"中正紀念堂推動了一個野百合的學運當時我有到現場去看很多國內好多的學生都在那裡風起雲湧對於民進黨的那些先賢先烈施敏德先生等人那邊喊要怎麼樣能夠保有台灣的民主自由"},{"start":16472.639,"end":16499.879,"text":"要怎麼樣依憲法的保障大家能夠把該講的話講出來基本的言論自由要得到保護在當時甚至啊連本席都覺得深受感動但是當這些即將凋零的美麗島世代一朵一朵離開了政壇以後我們看到"},{"start":16501.292,"end":16526.574,"text":"現在民進黨整體的墮落腐敗把一個完整的政府的體制能夠把它以法亂法以法玩法然後把我們的國家搞成現在這樣的一個烏煙瘴氣的制度從頭到尾制度"},{"start":16528.223,"end":16554.182,"text":"就是為了群體的人民而設的而卻有貪贓枉法的人再來戲弄這個制度。NCC的制度並沒有不好但是就出到像陳耀祥這種甘為政黨所御用的打手完全忘記自己的觀真觀德"},{"start":16556.633,"end":16584.778,"text":"能夠厚顏無恥能夠在國會殿堂滿口胡言還可以在這裡下指導旗該不該修法修法就是為了針對這種人玩法亂法所以今天NCC必須組織要修法在司法委員會來推動我們再次的表達"},{"start":16586.499,"end":16588,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":16615.134,"end":16643.987,"text":"把整個NCC玩到已經是全國人民最不信任的政府機構說要打詐本身就是詐騙集團要如何教導人民來打詐從108年三萬五千件的詐騙案到去年二十三萬件的詐騙案又花了人民四三億的公帑"},{"start":16646.363,"end":16673.716,"text":"確實淪落成這樣的一個結果還在國會殿堂此言不殘我想陳耀祥先生不要因為你不續任就可以拿著民進黨給你豐厚的資歷繼續安插到學校裡去在那裡持續的來誤人子弟來敗壞我們校園的學風"},{"start":16676.104,"end":16704.652,"text":"我們再次要強調不是今天你規避立法院的監督我們一定會把你追到底一定會把你追到底民進黨沒有永遠執政法院不是永遠民進黨開的監察院不是永遠民進黨開的大法官憲法會不是永遠民進黨開的你的所犯所刑你的賭職圖利一定終究會讓你郎當入獄"},{"start":16706.128,"end":16733.664,"text":"會讓你痛苦萬分後悔不已。不要以為短暫的小人得勢,就可以隻手遮天。」我們再一次的在這裡強調,你今天連站上那個諮詢台的、備詢台的資格都沒有。你侮辱了整個NCC所有辛苦的同仁。我想今天啊,甘為執政者的英犬,本席在這裡講的每一句話都希望你聽清楚。"},{"start":16735.256,"end":16764.634,"text":"未來一定會把你移送法辦。」我們再次的強調言論自由是一個國家最基本的憲法保障的自由而被你把整個國家民主制度玩殘至此執政者不愛聽的我就把你關掉執政者愛聽的多少利益我都給你多少執照都可以核發多少違法亂機都可以核准所以我們要再一次啊"},{"start":16765.765,"end":16769.649,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案案案案案"},{"start":16791.937,"end":16814.716,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第"},{"start":16821.872,"end":16840.525,"text":"移送監察院、而且也經過委員會決議通過。今天在這裡一樣的人坐在這裡還在爭持委員會為什麼不能通過決議我們再一次的表達主席的善意、會主席的善意釋放足夠就好我們的會議還是要進行他們擾亂議事就是不讓"},{"start":16846.192,"end":16861.983,"text":"真相能夠大白,不讓NCC能夠確實的為人民所期待,把組織法、修法把它健全完成。」主席加油。謝謝。接下來我們請魯明哲委員。"},{"start":16874.844,"end":16876.405,"text":"主席陳耀祥、黃文哲主秘、黃副處長黃副處長"},{"start":16900.26,"end":16925.193,"text":"時間暫停一下我不知道有人離開這件事沒有人跟我講有人離開這件事為什麼可以離開?為什麼可以離開?是 不好意思我剛才在問訊說對欸?剛剛他是什麼因為沒有任何人跟我講這件事因為我剛才也是在回答當中我也沒注意到這個好 謝謝我們改進來這不是改進來這要趕快回來對對對 是是是那怎麼可以隨便跑掉"},{"start":16929.292,"end":16933.333,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":16957.149,"end":16974.219,"text":"陳主委,其實這個對國會真的是很不尊重啦,因為你們,我跟你講你們基本上很多時候人要離開,他們跟我講一下,我都不會有意見,但我從頭到尾不知道有人離開了。對,他一定要跟我講一下。"},{"start":16983.746,"end":17000.405,"text":"對阿怎麼可以這樣來來來我再來講對對對對所以說我剛才看我我不曉得我是不曉得他沒有跟主席講的我本來以為他是跟主席講的因為我在剛才在站馬車我沒有注意看到他離開的這個事情"},{"start":17003.626,"end":17004.246,"text":"二）委員蔡英文等25人擬具"},{"start":17024.722,"end":17025.963,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":17047.487,"end":17075.186,"text":"我是覺得有點離譜啦因為黃文哲主秘在幾年前我問他事情的時候他還是處長今天請他來做一個證人結果證人不見了好沒關係其實每次看到我們陳主委這幾年來我真的有時候都非常非常生氣但是再看你一眼氣著氣著就笑了如果民進黨政府沒有留幾位像你這樣的這個首長的話這個我想不會有一位賴清德不過半"},{"start":17077.102,"end":17085.474,"text":"所以我在想這個大家期待中立獨立的NCC這是我每次講可是我們看到這幾年真的"},{"start":17088.823,"end":17115.948,"text":"人民的感覺跟我們自己很多委員的感覺剛剛民進黨立委也部分說對您很多表現不見得全部滿意都一樣的道理所以我們現在發覺我們希望事前透過制度今天有提了一些組織法的一個修正其實起心動念啦起心動念是希望源頭能夠提一些品質好的優良的中立的委員希望在源頭能夠來協助"},{"start":17117.248,"end":17124.433,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文"},{"start":17133.038,"end":17148.688,"text":"知道的也裝的不知道,立法院也問不出任何東西,事後呢?結案了,事後我們成立調閱小組,好吧?事終問不到,事後呢?調閱小組,哼,你也不給問,現在態度就這樣。那我想請問一下,我今天就舉個例子,到底發生了什麼事?"},{"start":17155.994,"end":17176.439,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第21"},{"start":17180.049,"end":17192.159,"text":"月領五萬元違反公務聯服務法旋轉門的條款。」這個部分我相信你們都清楚了,你們有沒有進行一些這個,因為我覺得這是非常非常讓我們這機關感覺到"},{"start":17196.513,"end":17219.538,"text":"因為他的蒙羞,他做過我們祖密居然搞這種事情,還打炸國家隊。那我覺得你們在有沒有內部做一些請他來約談訪談或者詢問因為他已經是平民身份已經不是官員了不過就我們的相關的這個程序這報導的部分我們要請政方室去調查我們內部也開過廉政會報你有沒有問到蕭啟宏本人"},{"start":17219.998,"end":17227.981,"text":"檢察官已經調查了,檢察官已經調查起訴的部分。我跟你講,他所有調查內容都公開了,都在起訴書裡面啦,不要把它當作機密啦。他未來當然法院最後決定嘛,他起訴的內容比你要講的拖一百倍啦。你現在在講這個,那你當年為什麼約詢陳建平,為什麼約詢民間機構的董事長,因為有關嘛。"},{"start":17248.087,"end":17248.648,"text":"二）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":17273.82,"end":17277.341,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案案"},{"start":17290.97,"end":17306.223,"text":"打電話給其他現任的NCC的委員也引薦現任NCC委員等官員請問一下這個事情你們有沒有進行了解是誰他接觸了誰"},{"start":17307.489,"end":17311.632,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案件"},{"start":17327.142,"end":17347.206,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．立法院第四條、"},{"start":17356.066,"end":17365.63,"text":"認識有沒有這種安排是不是事實?跟委員報告的就是他蕭委員有曾經 有沒有認識有沒有見面?就是有見過一次面在哪見面?"},{"start":17365.63,"end":17381.675,"text":"也就維持一次見面 喝咖啡吃飯?沒有是在我的辦公室因為我覺得 他就直接來你辦公室了是不是這樣?因為委員透過蕭前委員有介紹他說因為跟委員報告他是研究論文因為那個那個二五電信的"},{"start":17383.556,"end":17410.712,"text":"總經理也同時在念那個ENBA他是說有論文的事情要跟我們請教就是舊電信市場5G問題但你跟他認識你知不知道他的背景你知道他的背景嗎跟委員報告我告訴你就算他不是所謂詐騙集團的二類電信他是正常的電信他是你們所監管的一些單位你們可以這樣搞嗎當時五月的時候他是他有說明他是二五電信是有在我們"},{"start":17412.037,"end":17421.364,"text":"電信事業登記的電信,那討論的是論文的5G未來發展的題目的議題。我覺得沒有跟那個檢察官如實報告。"},{"start":17423.41,"end":17445.536,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組�"},{"start":17447.336,"end":17458.773,"text":"就是有一位我們的前委員把這樣的詐騙集團帶到詐騙國家隊的核心我不知道他說了什麼或者你們願意說不願意說或者他"},{"start":17459.872,"end":17478.438,"text":"立法院第11會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第十條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第21會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第22會期司法及法制"},{"start":17481.179,"end":17508.597,"text":"華文哲當時做處長的時候說對約談了我就要問那些約團的資料你們最後是怎麼處理的因為早上委員問你說不太清楚人家做的都這麼多陣欸委員我可不可以說明一下那一次那個會議我剛好公出沒有組織會議所以的確那個案子的印象我不是很清楚不是那組織會議不是翁伯忠嗎對那個資料後來都是送給孫鋒士跟所謂的檢調單位去處理"},{"start":17512.742,"end":17515.306,"text":"公博中組織會議,組織會議完馬上舉行記者會的那一次嗎?然後把人家給你了。"},{"start":17527.079,"end":17544.296,"text":"我覺得你們有太多的秘密也有很多的不管是內鬼或者內神我們真的發掘很多的問號只有你沒有發現所以我們希望我們有振峰也有剪掉去處理到現在結果是什麼你振峰像這樣的的有問題啊"},{"start":17546.238,"end":17548.359,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":17563.619,"end":17582.934,"text":"總統提名,不管是四位、七位,非常公平、符合社會期待、非常中立、非常公正、不是假的無黨籍的,我覺得是緣木求魚啦,所以我們才在源頭跟尾巴釣魚小組來努力啦,我們也希望我們會有一些成果,謝謝。好,謝謝。請問一下剛那一位那個聯繫上了嗎?好,那我們接下來請楊瓊英委員發言。"},{"start":17595.126,"end":17616.079,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期"},{"start":17619.847,"end":17639.28,"text":"律習在國會的人員就偷偷溜掉你派了他去做什麼事啊有什麼貓膩不可以講啊為什麼偷偷溜掉離開了會場連主席也不知道你覺得這種事情是可以容許的嗎所以他溜掉你知道嗎所以你也不知道所以你們底下都各自為證喔"},{"start":17648.746,"end":17652.014,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":17656.653,"end":17681.759,"text":"非常沒有合邏輯的對人民這麼不尊重道歉對所以我在此鄭重道歉我們對委員會這個東西來講沒有處理好我們道歉你不只是對委員會道歉是對台灣人民道歉欸因為我們是新聞自由這是人民最重要的一個真諦民主的真諦欸怎麼會弄到這種程度呢所以接下來本席要請教喔漢劇調閱小組"},{"start":17685.231,"end":17694.596,"text":"所知恩希希有這麼大的光位嗎?什麼理由呢?我們沒有所謂的拒絕提供我們是說好你沒有拒絕提供我們來討論要求提供資料但是呢在3月11成立調閱小組這是人民期待的到了4月25號"},{"start":17708.362,"end":17729.753,"text":"你回函了一個什麼呢?調驗小組可要求機關提供特定議案資料但本案屬於公司治理與機關監理事項競電式的聲色是否涉及特定議案尚有疑議請交通委員會釐清並釋明"},{"start":17733.175,"end":17735.298,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":17748.632,"end":17755.295,"text":"我才回答你覺得這樣子行嗎?今天是調閱小組耶為什麼?那一天調閱小組在做提案的時候我已經當場說明了然後當時的召集的寧國城委員也是我們要說明回去用書面再補充說明我們是說這個東西你要調閱當然可以否則那個特定議案我才知道我要給你什麼資料嘛如果沒有特定議案有人質疑好沒關係我們事情越變越輕"},{"start":17776.525,"end":17779.629,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":17795.902,"end":17819.281,"text":"你從來沒有拒絕的問題喔好你沒有拒絕的問題今天我們審議法案呢為什麼因為不足所以立法院的功能代表人民將不足的部分去法律定定之嘛對不對就像今天是在審查這個就叫法律案如果是法律案在審查過程裡面有些資料我們要提供要調研那當然可以啊所以本期再請教你"},{"start":17820.947,"end":17842.719,"text":"大家說NCC亂搞全民還是受害他不只受害還要善後NCC的單位應該是備受全國人民的一個尊敬啊但是似乎所有的系統裡頭NCC是備受質疑最多的最混淆的為什麼所以委員的人事機制應該要檢討你認為呢"},{"start":17845.439,"end":17861.006,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第3會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第5會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第6會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第7會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第8會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第9會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第10會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第11"},{"start":17866.969,"end":17888.004,"text":"所以本席實質在跟你討論安希希委員應該今天給你很大的一個說明但是你們竟然將自己的公信力跟獨立性都玩掉了在這樣情況之下人民要吞下什麼吞下新聞自由吞下通訊傳播環境思緒的結果"},{"start":17888.946,"end":17892.551,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":17901.823,"end":17929.003,"text":"所以因此在這樣的情況之下顯然大家有質疑喔NCC受外力的影響很大有沒有有沒有 有沒有當然沒有我們就是有7個委員去處理嘛我們都希望在這裡公開說明清楚您回答的是沒有但是我告訴您我支持國民黨的版本提案也就是檢討委員的人事機制同不同意"},{"start":17929.981,"end":17958.528,"text":"包括了行政院跟立法院皆有提名單。所以你一直閃躲一直閃躲嘛!所以廢除交錯的任期制你同不同意?不同意你也是閃躲成立提名審查委員會同不同意?審查委員會如果是照4至6月3號解釋那個一樣會行不通的啦"},{"start":17959.648,"end":17960.429,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":17968.945,"end":17993.455,"text":"自己來說題目你才回答所以主委你冷靜三思好好地檢討因為尋答就是希望能夠說明再說明再說明能夠達成共識我們的目的就是要還給人民新聞自由還給民主的真諦對不對謝謝委員因為剛離開的官員到場是不是請他稍微說明一下為什麼離開"},{"start":17997.432,"end":17998.633,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案件"},{"start":18020.259,"end":18035.569,"text":"所以剛剛有幾位委員他在詢答的時候就對這個就有意見了我先跟你說明一下這個狀況好那請回好那下一位我們請王宏威委員王宏威委員王宏威委員好下一位請游浩委員"},{"start":18048.465,"end":18057.63,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":18070.124,"end":18089.38,"text":"主委還是要再次表達一下這個NCC目前來講今天的整個審查外界各界都在看那包括剛才組密離席的部分我相信在場不管國民黨或民進黨或民眾黨的委員今天是天上聖母的誕辰大家都很多地方形成要跑那所以說今天來講"},{"start":18090.541,"end":18092.942,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":18111.969,"end":18133.247,"text":"包括他的意識形態就有很大的一個質疑那所以說今天的排案還是一切的合法一切到程序那同樣的我想要直接就教一下主委那在中天關台的這個事件中你認為在過去這個前一年在大選期間有沒有因為這個成為重大的議題或焦點議題"},{"start":18134.181,"end":18161.293,"text":"中天不比幻照本來就是一個重大的議題所以當然在競選過程當中來講當然也會成為一個議題所以今天的許多的委員針對媒體自由、新聞自由、新國會、新民意所以大家提出了許多的看法也就是希望NCC它的角色跟功能能夠實實在在的能夠代表著新聞自由但是目前看起來並不是這樣有一句話"},{"start":18162.693,"end":18186.173,"text":"自有自有多少罪惡假入之民惡行．是1793年在法國巴黎協和廣場斷頭台羅蘭夫倫的一個謎句當時是因為革命的浪潮法王路易十六被送上斷頭台之後羅伯斯比雅各兵派像脫疆野馬還瘋狂獨裁的路線到最後而造成的這種悲劇"},{"start":18187.014,"end":18214.019,"text":"所以說像現在的一個啟蒙他告訴我們自由的概念他必須要有理性的一個束縛不能無限上綱而走火入魔那主委對於這句話你們可以當然那個法國大革命後來變成報名政治嘛那我想台灣現在民主政治是很上軌道所以說過去的中天再到新聞的不自由再到媒體壟斷是不是也對著上次的選舉到最後整個過程對民進黨也有傷"},{"start":18215.821,"end":18230.318,"text":"臺灣的民主自由或是臺灣的新聞自由目前來講在國際排名上在亞洲還是第一的我想這個應該是沒有什麼太大的變化當然我們本來就是一個多元的民主社會用這種數據其實民眾都看得很清楚"},{"start":18230.919,"end":18236.185,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．"},{"start":18246.937,"end":18268.834,"text":"基層的人員公務委員應該也有針對這個部分其實其說許多的意見甚至建議這樣子是不可行但是我相信那時候主委副主委包括許多委員大家一致通過還甚至覺得這樣子沒有問題事實上許多的基層NCC的基層的職員就跟民眾他的看法是一樣的新聞是應該自由的所以說如果今天來講"},{"start":18269.815,"end":18280.179,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．"},{"start":18295.945,"end":18322.174,"text":"我相信在這些的提案的人選其實都有很大的問題所以NCC今天的提案我們必須也支持也需要讓他通過那因為NCC中華民國國家通訊傳播委員會他不是行政院的新聞傳播處也不是傳播二處所以說今天來講的提案他攸關的是我們NCC還新聞到底是不是能夠自由那我相信這個看法你可以接受"},{"start":18322.734,"end":18336.446,"text":"當然新聞事由是大家要共同維護的啦那我們也認為說在目前的現行制度上我們就依法去處理並沒有所謂的議題啦那所以說調閱進電室的這個部分調閱進電室我剛才已經回答很多次就是說我知道你有沒有辦法在520之前能夠讓這個調閱的過程能夠順暢"},{"start":18338.848,"end":18339.429,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":18361.732,"end":18361.892,"text":"條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":18378.53,"end":18389.32,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通"},{"start":18406.415,"end":18407.056,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":18434.656,"end":18462.861,"text":"好謝謝那下一位我們請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員鄭正前委員李坤哲委員謝謝召委麻煩一下陳主委請主委"},{"start":18465.026,"end":18465.247,"text":"委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草"},{"start":18468.125,"end":18495.245,"text":"主委你好還沒有吃飯吧還沒有我記得周星馳的喜劇之王他受盡踐踏但是他最重要還是希望有一個便當不過召委我們這個開會當然召委也很辛苦但是也應該要給開會的官員一個適當休息用餐的時間好陳主委我來請教一下關於這一次的提案"},{"start":18495.985,"end":18510.022,"text":"部份的委員有提到這個第四條就是相關的不得嚴認的這樣的一個問題以及啊這個組織法的第十條就是說委員人數不足不得一決但是這個我們"},{"start":18512.108,"end":18513.209,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":18528.59,"end":18545.241,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第12屆第13條文修正草案．一）立法院第14屆第14條文修正草案．一）立法院第15屆第16條文修正草案．一）立法院第16屆第17條文修正草案．一）立法院第17條文修正草案．一）立法院第18條文修正草案．一）立法院第18條文修正草案．一）立法院第19條文修正草案．一）立法院第"},{"start":18556.34,"end":18577.182,"text":"委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件不得延任,而且是委員人數不決,不得一決,那iPhone16會不會在台灣會通過,請說明一下。我們當然不希望發生這種事情,NCC它的整個職權是跟我們人民的十一住行關係都非常密切,其實剛剛委員已經提到非常多,其實還有一塊就是那個網路那塊議題了。"},{"start":18578.623,"end":18587.431,"text":"包括爭議的具體或違反藥事法或是違反食品安全衛生管理法或是違反兒少法等等的案件。」"},{"start":18599.642,"end":18602.424,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案 案 案"},{"start":18620.08,"end":18630.624,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二�"},{"start":18648.05,"end":18673.683,"text":"是在第六屆的時候那也謝謝高雄的栽培我在當時就是交通委員會的委員2005年第六屆第二會期10月25號國家通訊傳播委員會他的組織法三讀通過他是要到2006年的2月20號來正式成立但是在1月20號"},{"start":18675.74,"end":18685.004,"text":"寫商庭行政院提出釋憲因為相關依照政黨比例的推薦是否違憲所以申請釋憲所以我們在"},{"start":18689.042,"end":18717.148,"text":"提出釋憲之後我看是在2006年的7月21號司法院的釋字第613號的釋字出來那他最主要精神來主委簡單說明一下基本上第一個行政議題所以說行政院必須包括在包含在NCC這個都是他要負責那第二個因為至於這個行政議題所以所謂責任政治所以這個人事提名權是有所謂的行政院長所享有"},{"start":18718.168,"end":18742.361,"text":"立法院雖然對行政院對人事統一權用通過統一權或是資格的限制有他的參與,但是他不能取代行政院長。這個釋字613號的這個釋字啊他其實表明一個很清楚的原則就是啊立法權對行政權的人事決定權尤其是獨立機關他有"},{"start":18743.157,"end":18751.844,"text":"具體的這樣的一個制衡的一個基本的原則他具體表現在對任用資格限制"},{"start":18753.086,"end":18771.137,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第四條條文修正草案．一．立法院第四條條文修正草案．一．立法院第四條條文修正草案．一．立法院第四條條文修正草案．一．立法院第四條條文修正草案．一．立法院第四條條文修正草案．一．立法院第四條條條文修正草案．一．立法院第四條條條文修正草案．一．立法院第四條條條文修正草案．"},{"start":18779.858,"end":18801.296,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第3會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4"},{"start":18809.042,"end":18829.952,"text":"如果出問題是立法院負責還是行政院負責呢?這樣那個人事設計是有問題的來主委說明一下這個就是責任政治的問題就是說誰提名誰負責嘛就是包括我們人事的提名權來講行政院提名當然行政院要是負這個責任嘛那所以說像這種所謂的人事跟行政這種分享這個權利的話的確會導致這個所謂的權利分立還有所謂責任政治歸屬不明的這種結果"},{"start":18836.815,"end":18838.496,"text":"事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":18858.303,"end":18879.185,"text":"對於委員是否嚴認,如果沒有同意,又不得嚴認,然若委員是人數的不足,又不得議決,那麼相關的很多的面臨到電信整個會癱瘓,這個是大家必須要注意的。好,謝謝委員。謝謝,謝謝李委員。那下一位我們請謝一鳳委員。"},{"start":18881.24,"end":18903.591,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期"},{"start":18915.015,"end":18915.235,"text":"三）委員"},{"start":18933.166,"end":18934.246,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":18952.585,"end":18957.926,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14條條文修正草案案案案案"},{"start":18984.25,"end":19003.284,"text":"昨天早上來講是去參加那個電信協會有關於打炸的那個相關影視的拍攝,下午是開那個有線機器台,不好意思主委謝謝,主委為什麼會問你這個問題?因為呢在這個相關的說明裡面,這個如果說今天NCC委員沒有辦法"},{"start":19004.793,"end":19027.663,"text":"序任的話NCC會停擺。」這是你們的這個說法。所以我想要確認一下說如果今天委員不在NCC裡面NCC的運作是不是照常在運作?換句話說如果今天NCC的這個所有委員各別各別的事務但我想例行性的行政事務理論上它是不是也會繼續進行?"},{"start":19029.002,"end":19035.711,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通"},{"start":19048.086,"end":19065.911,"text":"基於行政議題所以本會在內的所有行政機關的表現負責所以他的人選行政要有人事決定權各位常提到所謂的四字613號今天主要的論點可能在四字613號大家有各自的想法"},{"start":19066.735,"end":19091.833,"text":"那我要提到竟然是4至6月3號4至6月3號的這個意見書裡面也提到這個通傳會屬於獨立機關性質依法獨立性質權那這個委員也有相關的法律規定無需與行政院院長來同進退是將具有獨立機關性質的通傳會納入行政議題的原則以完全失去其意義就是說如果今天你跟"},{"start":19092.813,"end":19118.31,"text":"一直強調行政議題的話,那其實他本質上跟所謂的獨立機關精神上在大法院意見書面他是有點背道而馳的。而在他那中也曾經說明過大法官前大法官也說明過通傳會如果是獨立機關表示是行政機關獨立於行政院所以可以主張為了要使通傳會獨立於行政院行政院對於通傳會的人事控制就不應該"},{"start":19119.651,"end":19146.062,"text":"不應該是百分之百,如果是百分之百,要怎麼獨立呢?所以如果貫徹的行政議題卻毀掉了...如果為了貫徹行政議題,它等於是毀掉了行政獨立機關的宗旨。在湯德忠這個結論裡面他提到,行政獨立這個概念與行政議題本身具有不可相容性。提供以上的觀點來分享為什麼今天我們會主張說"},{"start":19147.338,"end":19150.3,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":19172.591,"end":19199.787,"text":"另外我要繼續補充啦其實從另外一個角度來講這個于雪平大法官在同樣也在4至6月3號提到說只要他沒有實質的剝奪行政的人事決定權的角度的程度依照政黨比例推薦委候選人或依政黨比例推薦學者專家組成的審查會或其他的方式那其實本質上他並沒有真正的剝奪所謂行政議題的這個方向啦所以這是我要提出來的為什麼今天提出這個相關的法案的修正"},{"start":19200.427,"end":19202.408,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":19231.984,"end":19257.983,"text":"華視111年2月8號提出申請要到52台那他的通過時間是110年3月30要通過審查期間不到60天那比如說以今天事來講他是111年2月通過之後開始申請要上架112年的7月才上架中間經過了16個月今天我們要調閱所謂的審查這個過程就是想了解說為什麼有的電視台"},{"start":19259.364,"end":19276.297,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法"},{"start":19285.023,"end":19285.704,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":19304.506,"end":19332.129,"text":"基本上來講的話就是說他要不要上架是商業談判的機制的問題而且比如說這個還有所謂區塊化的這個相關的議題所以說比如說華氏可能因為他是公安局的所以一般系統業者比較容易他上那可能是有一些跟商業競爭的議題所以時間上會拖比較長那另外剛才講說這個新烈士這個部分來講的話為什麼這樣這麼付款這是很多是因為他當時在申請的時候他去把這個東西當作他申請的內容把他內容變成付款"},{"start":19332.349,"end":19356.736,"text":"對,沒關係,這部分我們有意見,我是意思說今天為什麼要調閱淨電視,為什麼所謂申請淨電視調閱小組,我們要了解的就是你剛剛說明的這件事情,我們希望你把文字化的東西說明清楚你在行政機關的判斷上面為什麼對不同電視台、不同的媒體可能會有不同的角度嗎?如果沒有,那你要講清楚,如果有,那也要講清楚,這就是我們監督ACC的主要原因嘛。"},{"start":19357.376,"end":19358.797,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":19376.047,"end":19395.102,"text":"公曉林委員他改為書面好那所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢詢答結束那委員質詢時要求提供的相關資料會以書面答覆者請相關機關請速送交個別委員跟本聯席會"},{"start":19397.661,"end":19411.814,"text":"委員秋若華、翁曉琳所提的書面質詢列入紀錄、刊登公報並請相關機關以書面答覆。現在進行討論事項,請議事人員宣讀提案條文,宣讀時間大約10分鐘,宣讀後就進行討論,如果有修正動議並一併宣讀,"},{"start":19421.363,"end":19430.298,"text":"另外,立於討論審查法案時,請主要列席機關代表一致主義台陣前方"},{"start":19437.091,"end":19462.56,"text":"對我等一下我還沒講完對我知道我還沒有你們你的問題其實就是我接下來要講了那正前方的那個首長席的位置就座那宣讀後我們休息10分鐘請與會的人到那個利用這個時間用餐宣讀時間大概10分鐘宣讀完之後休息10分鐘就總共20分鐘大家可以吃飯或"},{"start":19463.32,"end":19490.657,"text":"會議的詢問因為宣讀前應當先進行大體的討論才進入宣讀啊應當是我們希望是進行大體的討論再進入條文對啊先休息對我們是要求爭取要大體討論的這一程序來一程序來我們先宣讀完再大體討論嗎我們先宣讀完再大體討論就promise是有大體討論的喔是有大體討論的"},{"start":19493.43,"end":19494.952,"text":"主席,我良心建議齁因為"},{"start":19511.138,"end":19513.659,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具 «國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":19526.471,"end":19540.54,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案．立法院第12屆第13屆立法院第14屆立法院第15屆立法院第16屆立法院第17屆立法院第18屆立法院第18屆立法院第19屆立法院第19屆立法院第20屆立法院第21屆立法院第21屆立法院第22屆立法院第22屆立法院第22屆立法院第23屆立法院第23屆立法院第24屆立法院第24屆立法院第25屆立法院第26屆立法院第27屆立法院第28屆立法院第29屆立法院第30屆立法院第"},{"start":19545.643,"end":19567.228,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組�"},{"start":19570.134,"end":19593.886,"text":"我知道你未來後面的策略我知道,但是這條沒有多少條啦,不是像執行新法那麼多複雜啦。但是不要給我啦,我知道你們的策略吧。他們需要用餐的時間啦,讓大家半個小時用完餐。因為條文很少。對兩點半然後對大家半個小時。三個條文而已啊。"},{"start":19599.269,"end":19607.656,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第12屆第18條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":19621.188,"end":19629.614,"text":"就趕快讓他們用餐好嗎?主席啊,吃飯15分鐘不夠再延長啦,15分鐘趕快開嘛我們現在開始宣讀,宣讀時間大概10分鐘,那宣讀完畢之後我們這樣休息15分鐘,我們取一個折衝,15分鐘大家讓議事的人員去吃個飯"},{"start":19647.006,"end":19648.007,"text":"好那我們現在開始宣讀"},{"start":19664.536,"end":19686.149,"text":"議員為副主任委員職務比照檢認第十四職等其餘委員職務比照檢認第十三職等本會委員應具電信資訊傳播法律或財經等專業學士或實務經驗本會委員自本法修正後不分妾賜由行政院及政黨按專長領域各推薦七名"},{"start":19686.869,"end":19714.802,"text":"其中政黨應依其在立法院所占席次比例分配名額推進名單應交由行政院組成之提名審查委員會以下簡稱審查會審查之。前項審查會由各政黨團依其在立法院所占席次比例推薦11名學者、專家組成審查委員應含瓜設有大眾傳播或通訊等相關系所之大專院校"},{"start":19716.688,"end":19738.184,"text":"傳播產業及非政府組織之專家學者審查會應於接受推薦名單後20日內完成審查。本項審查應以聽證會程序公開為之。行政院院長應於7日內參酌審查會審查結果提出名單,送請立法院同意。立法院應於收到名單後不經討論交付相關委員會審查。"},{"start":19740.766,"end":19768.867,"text":"審查候提書院會以記名投票表決經超過全體立法委員二分之一之同意為通過,請將立法院審查過程中應舉行聽證會,邀集相關學者專家、公民團體及社會公正人士共同參與審查,如通過人數不足7名,應由行政院在7日內再次提出名單,送請立法院依相同程序為同意與否之表決。"},{"start":19771.084,"end":19796.355,"text":"法制同意人數達七名時行政院應及同時任命本會七名委員其政黨黨籍相同者不得超過三位第三項第四項之推薦各政黨團位於其縣內完成者視為放棄本會七名委員應於任命後之次日就職並互選正副主任委員"},{"start":19797.395,"end":19811.411,"text":"行政院院長應於選出後7日內任命,主任委員、副主任委員應分屬不同政黨團推薦人選,行政院院長推薦至委員適同執政黨推薦人選,"},{"start":19812.532,"end":19841.245,"text":"委員認滿三個月前應依第三項第四項程序提名任命新任委員如因立法院不同意過出缺制委員人數未達足而時異同本會委員任期屆滿未能依前項規定提任時適同出缺本會主任委員、副主任委員及委員有下列情形之一者得由立法院連署成案經不信任投票後於免職"},{"start":19843.527,"end":19862.307,"text":"因廢時職務、二）因案受羈押或經起訴、三）其他足以影響機關信譽及個人執行職務正當性之失職行為、四）因離聘至無法執行職務、本條修正規定之行使同意權程序、四）公佈日期施行。"},{"start":19863.448,"end":19880.476,"text":"委員傅崐萁等41人提案第四條第一項及第二項修正為本會至委員7人均為專任任期4年任滿得連任本會委員之產生程序如下一由立法院推舉11名至15名"},{"start":19882.057,"end":19907.95,"text":"社會公正人士組成國家通訊傳播委員會審查委員會以下簡稱審查委員會。二（由行政院提名委員候選人提交審查委員會經全體委員二分之一以上之同意後由行政院院長提名經立法院同意後任命之。三（行政院院長為提名時應指定一人為主任委員一人為副主任委員。"},{"start":19909.656,"end":19933.691,"text":"第三項由原第二項條文遞移第四項由原第三項條文遞移並將後段修正為委員之黨籍應與立法院政黨之比例相符但同一黨籍則不得超過委員總數三分之一。第五項由原第四項條文遞移並將第三具條文中第一項修正為第二項"},{"start":19935.68,"end":19963.749,"text":"第六項手具具首的第一項修正為第二項其餘未修正。委員洪孟楷等提案第四條第一項修正為本會至委員7人均為專任任期4年任滿得連任一次其中一人為主任委員特任對外代表本會一人為副主任委員職務比照檢任第14職等其餘委員職務比照檢任第13職等"},{"start":19965.56,"end":19986.778,"text":"第二項由原第三項條文遞移,令增訂第三項至第五項。本會委員應由行政院及政黨案專長領域及實務經驗各推薦7名,其中政黨團應依其在立法院所在席次比例分配名額。"},{"start":19988.294,"end":20002.853,"text":"推介名單應交由行政院組成之提名審查委員會以下簡稱審查會審查。前項審查會由各政黨團依其在立法院所佔席次比例推薦11名學者專家組成。"},{"start":20005.798,"end":20035.318,"text":"審查委員應包含設有大眾傳播或通訊等相關系所之大專院校、通訊傳播產業及非政府組織之專家學者。審查會應於接受推薦名單後20日內完成審查。本項審查應以聽證會程序公開為之,並以記名投票表決。行政院院長應於7日內參著審查會表決結果提出名單,送請立法院同意。"},{"start":20036.478,"end":20058.289,"text":"立法院應於收到名單後15日內以記名投票表決,以立法委員總額二分之一同意為通過,行政院即任命之。委員會應於七位委員任命後之次日就職,並互選正副主任委員,主任委員、副主任委員應分屬不同政黨團推薦人選。"},{"start":20061.718,"end":20085.18,"text":"第六項至第八項分別由原第四項至第六項條文遞移並將第七項後二具修正為或提認未能通過立法院同意時原任委員之任期其應終止不得延任其餘未修正。委員翁小林等提案第四條第一項修正為"},{"start":20086.121,"end":20108.819,"text":"本會致專任委員五人任期四年任滿得連任一次由行政院長提名二名委員其中一人為主任委員一人為委員經立法院同意後任命其餘三名委員由立法院提名以請行政院任命。增訂第二項本會之副主任委員由委員互選產生"},{"start":20110.629,"end":20136.534,"text":"第三項至第五項分別由原第二項至第四項條文遞移,並將第五項前二具合併修正為本會委員任滿三個月前,第六項修正為第一項規定之提名同意任命程序自修正公佈日起施行,原任全體委員之任期至新任委員就職前一日止,其餘未修正。"},{"start":20138.103,"end":20149.536,"text":"委員傅崐萁等41人提案第八條除第三項增訂默劇,亦不得擔任公職人員或代表政黨參選公職人員其餘未修正。"},{"start":20150.782,"end":20169.66,"text":"委員傅崐萁等41人提案第十條除第三項第二具修正為因以本法第四條第一項委員總額過半數之同意行之,其餘未修正。委員洪孟楷等提案第十條第一項至第七項未修正,增訂第八項"},{"start":20171.431,"end":20192.569,"text":"本會委員有任期屆滿、第六條之情形或其他原因未能繼續擔任委員至委員總額未達本法第四條關於人數之規定在補足前不得將議案提付表決。」 宣讀完畢繼續修正動議部分修正動議一"},{"start":20194.668,"end":20221.218,"text":"對照委員傅崐萁等33人提案條文第四條第3項至第11項修正為第3項至第7項。若為本會委員自本法修正後不分屆次由行政院院長依下列程序任命之一（由立法院推薦9名社會公正人士交由行政院組成提名審查委員會二（由行政院提出推薦名單交由提名審查委員會審查"},{"start":20222.959,"end":20251.938,"text":"經全體委員過半致同意後,送請行政院院長提名。三）就行政院院長提名之人選,經立法院同意後任命之,無應立法院不同意或出缺致本會委員人數未達足額時,準用前項規定。行政院院長提名時,應指定一人為主任委員,一人為副主任委員。第三項第一款之提名審查委員會,由各政黨團依其在立法院所暫席次比例推薦之。"},{"start":20258.052,"end":20283.541,"text":"本會委員任期屆滿未能依第三項規定提案時視同處缺。原第十二項第一為第八項。提案人委員黃國昌、林國成、程雪生。修正動議二）對照委員洪孟楷等25人提案條文。第四項修正為前項審查會由行政院推進三名及各政黨團依其在立法院所占席次比例推薦八名學者專家組成。"},{"start":20284.961,"end":20299.961,"text":"審查委員應包括設有大眾傳播或通訊等相關系所之大專院校、通訊傳播產業及非政府組織之專家學者。審查會應於接受推薦名單後,20日內完成審查。"},{"start":20300.962,"end":20326.274,"text":"本項審查應以聽證會程序公開為之,並以記名投票表決。行政院院長應於7日內參佐審查會表決結果提出名單,送請立法院同意。立法院應於收到名單後15日內以記名投票表決,以立法委員總額二分之一同意為通過。行政院及任命之,其餘未修正。提案人委員林思明、洪孟楷、翁曉琳、羅志強宣讀完畢。"},{"start":20342.604,"end":20353.312,"text":"條文跟修正動議已經宣讀完畢一到先前的宣告因為剛有委員希望說讓議事人員能夠多一點時間休息所以我們休息到2點30分好謝謝各位"},{"start":21575.538,"end":21578.421,"text":"大體討論後再進行逐條審查。大體討論每人發言4分鐘,請到主席台登記。"},{"start":21652.199,"end":21656.12,"text":"通訊通訊通訊通訊通訊通訊通訊通訊通訊通訊通訊"},{"start":21680.626,"end":21698.264,"text":"主席、各位委員同仁今天我們審查NC組織法當然這裡面有一個最重要的重點就是說大法案6134字已經判決正常比喻是違憲的在談這個以前我剛才有在電視上看到"},{"start":21699.659,"end":21718.413,"text":"召委在執行以及副委員在執行。你一直說一句話,製度沒有問題,都是人為的問題。副委員也是跟你講說,民進黨要給他太多的善意,已經給他善意了,不要給他一直發言,一直恐慌你。"},{"start":21719.172,"end":21736.957,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第12屆第13條文修正草案．立法院第14屆第18條文修正草案．立法院第18條文修正草案．立法院第18條文修正草案．立法院第18條文修正草案．立法院第19條文修正草案．立法院第19條文修正草案．立法院第20條文修正草案．立法院第21條文修正草案．立法院第22條文修正草案．立法院第23條文修正�"},{"start":21742.518,"end":21763.2,"text":"和孟楷提的版本、歐小林也提的版本但是各位你們有沒有看到你們的版本還有一個黃國昌的修正案你們有沒有看到你們的版本長得怎麼樣這個版本裡面有沒有互相漢格的地方和邏輯不一樣的地方、法律不一樣的地方呢到底你們有沒有仔細看清楚"},{"start":21765.027,"end":21789.901,"text":"這裏面我們要談的就是說道觀4613當年在立法院的時候為了這個NCE比例、立民共政黨比例而陷於火大家吵架甚至占領主義台造成了整個那一年隔年的中央政治總預算全部比列半年是一個非常嚴重的衝突那時候時任的行政院長就是蘇文昌院長"},{"start":21791.038,"end":21813.869,"text":"副院長蔡英文副院長今天我們這樣來過往的時間來看的時候整個AZ組織法總共經過四任的行政院長行政院長後來才完成那最主要的問題叫什麼就是不能剝奪行政院長的人事權這是違憲的"},{"start":21817.85,"end":21836.375,"text":"立法委員是一節法案預算先任過後等案。」這是憲法規定很清楚。立法委員並沒有任命官員的權利。假如這樣可以的時候以後的所有政務官是不是有照這種比喻來分呢?所以你們寫版本叫"},{"start":21839.302,"end":21857.774,"text":"就實質的剝奪,這一點是被判違憲的。今天你們就案重提,曾經被判違憲的版本,再拿出來提一次。我不知道國民黨在想什麼?歐洲人版本更精進,他只剩下5個人,他有一半,今天只能夠提兩個人。"},{"start":21860.436,"end":21870.282,"text":"一個人當主委一個人當委員副主委是剩下三個立法委員來提所以這裡面講的每一個都是違憲"},{"start":21871.792,"end":21896.784,"text":"我再清楚講一次,所有違憲版本再怎麼樣都是違憲。你再重提一次,下一次再重提一次,還是違憲了。我現在先警告國民黨,你們有四個版本要如何整合,你們事先講清楚再來好不好。所以今天我要特別要講的就是說,整個審查是一個很簡單的邏輯而已。這樣一個簡單的邏輯,過去大法官全部事先過了。"},{"start":21897.944,"end":21899.185,"text":"委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":21909.943,"end":21937.231,"text":"同時申提出了緊急處問。大法官馬上判緊急處問下來。那緊急處問很快就下來。所以把這個所有的違憲版本、立法院處委員會的版本、處委院會的版本、總統公告的版本全部拼頂起來。所以各位在這方面要小心、要想清楚。否則你們今天再搞一次,也是歷史重演,再違憲一次而已。這次就讓你們國民黨、民眾黨頓壓落開而已。"},{"start":21941.415,"end":21968.364,"text":"謝謝柯總召那接下來請鍾嘉斌委員發言好主席在場的各位聯席委員我想對於本會期開議以來以國民黨為主的黨團的提案首先有幾個現象第一個是雜"},{"start":21970.587,"end":21997.444,"text":"過去縱使國民黨是在野黨團通常會整合出黨團版來跟民進黨黨團版或是行政院版做對應但是不曉得為什麼原因很雜甚至同一個委員還提出不同的版本那到底是用哪個版本我想連自己本身提案委員或連署委員都莫衷於事第二個是急急著要求"},{"start":21999.059,"end":22028.029,"text":"輪值召委該黨的召委趕快排議程而且急到什麼程度急到其他黨團其他委員非他們主義的版本都不給排最後一個是強雜急再來強人數優勢本來就是豪爭以暇其實相對的少數也只有只能循議事規則透過議事規的保障一步一步的往前推進所以"},{"start":22029.127,"end":22056.727,"text":"中規一句話,砸也好、強也好,就是急。為什麼急著要在520之前通過這些法案呢?我想在立法院職權刑事法我們看得很清楚,當中有一個跟總統有關的國情報告。但是今天NCC這個法案談了半天,如果說在野黨的版本就是為了中天審招未過,"},{"start":22057.867,"end":22060.148,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":22075.603,"end":22095.661,"text":"所以認為這個委員會是被特定政黨把持那既然認為中天審照未過是NCC委員被特定政黨把持現在提出來版本又說要一政黨比例那言下之意未來的多數黨還是可以透過政黨比例繼續把持NCC啊"},{"start":22096.844,"end":22124.482,"text":"這樣的提案的修正內容毫無意義,而且剛好是自打耳光。如果說真的要從這些版本當中挑出一個跟我們進步價值反媒體壟斷比較有關係的,或許有幾個部分,比如說限制委員當中具備政黨黨籍的單一黨籍不得超過三分之一,但是對於其他的人員不應該要求必須隸屬於某個政黨之下,難道由其他政黨來推薦,目的就是為了讓黨黨指揮嗎?"},{"start":22126.563,"end":22152.512,"text":"這是非常的非常不恰當另外我們目前就要求獨立機關的像NC這樣委員應該禁止參與政黨活動甚至要進步要說退出政黨我都覺得可以考慮支持但是請千萬你的邏輯要一致如果過去NC是被特定政黨把持那麼就沒有所謂的政黨比例代表推薦的問題這是第一個第二個"},{"start":22153.717,"end":22168.087,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法"},{"start":22176.121,"end":22194.775,"text":"第三個最終的目的就是要在7月前本屆NCC委員他是任期教授有一半屆滿之後如果說這些東西都不能通過NCC就全部停擺公平會有這樣的延任條款是避免公平會停擺"},{"start":22197.077,"end":22214.293,"text":"那為什麼要讓NCC停擺?為什麼要設下一個把這個規定拿走讓NCC停擺的規定?就是因為NCC跟我們民生相關勝據新的手機沒有進行NCC審驗不可上違法的藥品廣告沒有NCC不能取締侵犯兒少的性影像沒辦法移除"},{"start":22215.114,"end":22233.453,"text":"所以我請在野黨的委員各位黨團的委員尤其是台灣民眾黨你們在提修正動議的時候特別注意這一條這個條文如果把原來跟公平委一樣有的維持委員會持續運作的條款拿掉一旦出缺不能正常運作那很抱歉"},{"start":22234.844,"end":22246.951,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第"},{"start":22255.967,"end":22275.923,"text":"你可以搶,但是請你不要急。你一急就顯得把人民的權益擱在一邊,只看到政黨的勢力。」好,謝謝。那接下來我們請陳書悅委員。那陳書悅委員發言完畢之後我們的登記發言就截止。好,謝謝。"},{"start":22283.518,"end":22289.461,"text":"謝謝主席今天聯席會議討論有關NCC的組織法修正案我們剛剛在巡討的時候很多委員都有提到NCC組織法在2005年通過之後當時在國會是國親過半的情況之下就已經有提案要主張把NCC的委員組成要由各政黨案比例來推薦"},{"start":22311.633,"end":22339.168,"text":"那後來經過行政院提出釋憲之後也經由大法官的這個解釋是違憲的所以在這個組織法通過之後然後經過釋憲那這個ACC在2006年2月12號成立之後就依照這樣子的這個組織法在運作當然其中也有經過幾次的小修包括說這個主委跟副主委這個互推的這個制度"},{"start":22339.688,"end":22348.936,"text":"後來因為在實施的過程之中有產生就是因為在運作過程當中沒有辦法順利的運作就是有這個增值的部分所以也後來在那時候馬英九執政就是一百年的時候也是經由立法院來修正NCC的組織法第四條規定把主任委員跟副主委互選的規定把它改成就是由行政院來提名任命所以"},{"start":22369.572,"end":22370.693,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":22391.701,"end":22394.383,"text":"國民黨是完全執政的,在國會也是過半數的,為什麼不來進行修改呢?為什麼要在目前民進黨執政,然後你們在藍白過半的情況下才要來做這個強行這樣子的一個修正的草案呢?"},{"start":22409.753,"end":22410.054,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":22425.834,"end":22426.294,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":22455.126,"end":22475.803,"text":"針對競爭法還有通訊傳播領域金融監督領域這幾個部分的一個獨立機關的研究這些部分這些國家的這個獨立機關基本上大部分的這個委員的產生也是由行政部門來提名由民意機關來通過的那我們國家的這個獨立機關的設計主要是參與這個美國的一個設計"},{"start":22481.247,"end":22489.594,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員傅崐萁等34人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等34人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等34人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等34人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員"},{"start":22508.01,"end":22521.894,"text":"所以我們希望說制度沒有問題之下我們不要就是基於這個政黨的一個私利然後再強行做這樣子一個不合理的一個修改我想這樣子的一個如果是蠻橫的一個修改通過我想民眾都看在眼裡我們不希望說這個藍白夾著國會過半的這樣子的一個優勢做這樣不合理蠻橫的一個法令的一個修改"},{"start":22536.278,"end":22538.239,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":22576.224,"end":22599.372,"text":"主席各位同仁我想今天我們也看到這個大概可以預知今天審查的結果因為這個我們看到這個多數黨也動員了這個大軍押進大概都已經正式擺開也沒有打算要真的理性討論不過我個人我也知道說我們今天在這邊講講一講也是告別灰車啦反正你們這個灰車曬過來我們就叫你們告過"},{"start":22604.346,"end":22615.515,"text":"但是該講的還是要講,我們要留下這樣的歷史記錄在今天早上詢答的時候,我也講得很清楚"},{"start":22618.948,"end":22633.658,"text":"事實上這個NCC的這個這個成立齁那時候在2006年成立的時候他立法的過程那時候第六屆的時候我個人在第六屆我就是立法委員那時候整個立法的過程齁我也非常的記憶猶新齁"},{"start":22635.579,"end":22652.651,"text":"當初所立出來最後立出來的法因為那時候國民黨是多數雖然民進黨執政陳水扁擔任總統那國民黨是多數那立法出來的結果就是依政黨比例代表制依政黨比例代表來來來政黨的比例來產生這個NCC的委員結果立法一通過"},{"start":22653.919,"end":22676.504,"text":"那時候的行政院長把這個法案就送大法官會議解釋馬上解釋就下來就宣告依政黨比例產生這個NCC的委員是違憲的理由講得很清楚第一點就是基於行政一體這個國家通訊傳播的管理是屬於行政權的一部分你由這個政黨比例這個"},{"start":22678.709,"end":22696.707,"text":"這個你針對這樣子的行政權利你可以給他限制可以用同意權可以限制但限制有其界限有其界限你不能夠完全禁於取代用政黨比例禁於取代這個解釋得非常清楚所以那時候就宣告這樣的方式是違憲了"},{"start":22698.275,"end":22716.81,"text":"審法沒有改、審法沒有變。」大法官解釋也還在那裡。但是今天我們看到國民黨提出來四個版本都更甚於當年被宣告違憲的版本。今天所提出來的版本還有說連提名權都依政黨比例組成審查委員會依政黨比例來審查連提名"},{"start":22721.923,"end":22751.049,"text":"那時候只是說在這個委員的部分採政黨比例就宣告違憲了現在連提名都要依政黨比例組成審查委員會從提名開始就政黨比例完了之後再按照政黨比例政黨比例完了以後再行使同意權這個我想今天這個法例了大概我們可以看到結果就是一樣在送釋憲釋憲之後那當初就已經宣告違憲了現在比過去宣告的更加違憲"},{"start":22753.035,"end":22781.708,"text":"我認為這個是真的是奉勸國民黨的朋友能夠三思尤其是這個制度現在這個制度不是民進黨設計的這個制度呢這制度是在2009年由國民黨朱鳳之委員領銜提案當時的這個連署人有很多現在大部分都已經不可考都已經退休了但是其中有一位我還認識"},{"start":22783.533,"end":22811.864,"text":"現在還在當就是傅崐萁。傅崐萁當初是這個法案的連署人為什麼2009年他們會國民黨今天這個制度就是國民黨當時國民黨執政總統馬英九立法院多數的時代2009年國民黨自己提案在2011年由國民黨多數的這個立法院通過的就是今天的制度就是這個制度"},{"start":22813.348,"end":22832.021,"text":"所以這個制度不是民進黨說我們民進黨為了自己這樣子設計這個制度今天來這個不是這個制度是國民黨的時候用多數通過的由行政院長提名由立法院行使同意權這個制度今天的制度你們大家國民黨口中這萬惡不赦的制度是國民黨自己提的那今天時空轉換"},{"start":22836.414,"end":22854.486,"text":"民主政治本來是這樣體制就是體制那時空轉換我們今天執政未來有可能國民黨馬上也要執政也有可能啊但是制度不要因為我現在我們立法院的比例大家政黨比例改變了我們就要來改制度這樣就叫做玩弄制度"},{"start":22855.612,"end":22881.286,"text":"國民黨多數的時候就說他們要這樣那現在沒有執政又多數他們就又要那樣把制度這樣子因應因因為這個政治勢力的改變而來調整這個制度這個絕對不是民主政治長治久安之道啦所以在這裡我們是我知道這個是告不虛假但是應該不會還是要不會我們要留下歷史紀錄以上謝謝沈委員那下一位我們請何欣淳委員發言"},{"start":22888.927,"end":22911.725,"text":"謝謝各位委員還是要苦口婆心的來請各位委員要三思了這個制度呢是真的要長治久安要可長可久啊真的不要因為現在不滿民進黨的執政就來修改制度我再提醒一次喔當初呢會成立NCC那制度的設計它就是一個獨立機關"},{"start":22913.326,"end":22937.623,"text":"獨立機關最重要的就是有兩個一個就是他的專業性一個就是他的去政治性那去政治化的這個這件事情我們來看今天這個整個不管是傅崐萁委員的兩個版本或者是洪孟楷的版本或是翁曉琳的版本今天這四個版本裡面每一個版本"},{"start":22938.544,"end":22956.396,"text":"就是政治,就是政黨,這個政黨比例代表這個東西早就在2005年2006年的時候就已經宣告違憲所以今天這些法案的版本不管我們怎麼審除了委員會他還是違憲他還是違憲他就是違憲"},{"start":22962.176,"end":22970.219,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通"},{"start":22988.251,"end":22997.3,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員傅崐萁等23人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及"},{"start":23008.371,"end":23024.647,"text":"譬如說其中一個版本是行政院提七名國會依政黨比例提七名另外一個版本也是副委員他自己的版本那很多國民黨的委員有連署全數由行政院來提名"},{"start":23025.808,"end":23027.97,"text":"正副主委選舉方式不一樣,正副主委由委員互選,正副委員由行政院提名。"},{"start":23048.598,"end":23068.706,"text":"那我就不知道說等一下我們再繼續再討論這個整個好兇羞派這些版本裡面到底是有什麼意義啊這提案真的是非常的不負責任啊所以我還是建議大家三思而後行啊我們今天在委員會提的這些要討論的這些法案根本都是違憲"},{"start":23070.447,"end":23099.442,"text":"根本都是違憲我還再提醒一次既然是違憲的一個相關的制度討論我們是不是應該應該要暫停我們是不是應該再審視一下我們是不是應該要為自己的提案為自己的行為來為歷史來做負責任的我相信呢拜託各位委員都是偉大的政治家大家好好的思考一下以上謝謝"},{"start":23104.898,"end":23106.547,"text":"下一位我們請陳俊宇委員"},{"start":23117.571,"end":23138.251,"text":"好謝謝主席那我們從今天一早到現在從我們各位委員的和我們陳主委的這個答詢的內容我們可以看出因為NCC的相關業務涉及的這個層面相當的廣泛那更與我們的生活息息相關"},{"start":23139.372,"end":23147.858,"text":"立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,包括民聲、電信、手機及各類通訊設備的送審、網路及媒體、電台等的"},{"start":23159.147,"end":23175.02,"text":"合照跟換照等等的這些業務,那也看出我們NCC所有的委員這個對於這些案件的這個壓力這個7個人不一定可以負荷,那如果不勝"},{"start":23176.06,"end":23188.392,"text":"在這個修法的過程裡面造成NCC空轉或是癱瘓對於國家會造成這個重大的影響所以我們一定要更加審慎的來討論對於今天要修的這幾個這個組織法的部分"},{"start":23195.836,"end":23212.302,"text":"其實也是在過去國民黨執政時期所修的我們今天看到這四個案件有違憲還有不合時宜的部分應該是要合理化才能夠符合全民的期待"},{"start":23215.407,"end":23223.353,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第3會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法"},{"start":23230.418,"end":23231.979,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":23247.006,"end":23261.422,"text":"行政院來做任命。當然這個也會影響到NCC作為一個獨立的機構的這種獨立性與專業性也會造成NCC的這個政務推動的一個困難所以"},{"start":23262.143,"end":23288.421,"text":"本席建議我們應該還是要尊重NCC委員會委員們的專業和多元也讓我們優秀的這些人才能夠進入到NCC委員會裡面來為國家服務當然在此我還是要提醒我們未來所組成的新NCC委員會一定要超越黨派"},{"start":23290.001,"end":23313.354,"text":"確實做到保障消費者及尊重弱勢的權益並且能夠保障每個族群的言論自由來促進多元的文化均衡發展我相信也唯有這樣子才能夠有效做到監督管理之責也可以讓我們全民對於NCC重拾最大的信心以上"},{"start":23316.633,"end":23325.312,"text":"謝謝陳委員下一位我們請羅志強委員羅志強委員羅志強委員好現在我們請李坤哲委員"},{"start":23334.709,"end":23355.202,"text":"謝謝召委我想今天民主政治的發展雖然是不同的黨派當然有意識形態或者是對於相關事務的政治看法有所衝撞或者是不同這當然都是常見的一個現象但是大家在對於相關的政治的這樣的一個攻防的過程裡面"},{"start":23356.277,"end":23365.234,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案 順循憲政的運作,仍然是政治的一個基本的原理。其實我們今天在討論到相關的"},{"start":23368.606,"end":23392.147,"text":"國家通訊傳播委員會組織法的修法其實我感慨是蠻深的當初國家通訊傳播委員會的這樣的一個組織法的修法過程三讀通過或者是NCC的正式成立以及相關的這樣的一個613號失智案的出爐其實有很多委員當時都還在"},{"start":23394.989,"end":23417.533,"text":"審判會委員蔡奇昌委員柯建民委員以及胡坤祺委員這些上古神獸當初都是經歷過這一些修法的過程所以說對於憲政的這樣的一個運作的過程我們也知道在2005年的10月25號"},{"start":23422.868,"end":23446.336,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。在2006年的1月20號當時的謝長廷行政院就提出了相關的事件的申請。在2006年的2月22號NCC正式的成立。到了2006年的7月"},{"start":23448.706,"end":23474.122,"text":"司法院的釋制第613號也正式的出爐。當時爭議最大的司法官所提出的相關的這些釋制的內容就是明擺的指出立法權對於行政群所擁有的獨立機關的人事決定權的一個制衡,它具體的表現是對於任用資格的限制。"},{"start":23475.384,"end":23478.786,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":23497.073,"end":23498.694,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":23520.236,"end":23548.539,"text":"更重要的他對於相關的電信民生的議題啊我一再提醒各位有委員的版本提到如果沒有同意委員不得言認或者是委員的人數不足不得議決我真的再提醒一次iPhone16啊還是要經過NCC的形式的一個認證如果"},{"start":23549.599,"end":23563.728,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件不得言認甚至是人數不足就不得意覺的話我們每年有4至6萬件的這樣的一個行政處分需要確認或是意覺這個都會產生很大的爭議。憲政的運作"},{"start":23568.646,"end":23587.493,"text":"可以讓政黨之間的競爭、衝撞、對抗有一個基本遵循的一個原則。」這個希望大家還是要遵循基本的憲政運作。以上。好,謝謝。那接下來我們請莊瑞雄委員發言。"},{"start":23594.036,"end":23596.318,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":23608.151,"end":23611.974,"text":"立法院第四條條文修正草案．立法院第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":23638.471,"end":23651.924,"text":"本席認為他還是沒有過時,這個還是我們憲法的一個基本精神,同時他也沒有去限制立法權制度的一個干預。我在這個地方就用這樣來回應我們在野黨的朋友,"},{"start":23653.035,"end":23676.801,"text":"立法委員大不大當然很大按照憲法的設計你屬於國家重要的事項立法委員全部都可以管他全部都可以管可以問但是這個可以管可以問如果倒到最後是我們把最高行政機關行政院他的人事權你把他剝奪了甚至由立法院立法委員來獨攬"},{"start":23678.281,"end":23694.876,"text":"這個就違反了整個權力分立的一個原則了立法權跟行政權是平行的民主的一個正當性行政院當然要對立法院來負責但是這個行政院長是總統直接去做一個任命我為什麼說立法委員不是想要怎麼樣就可以怎麼樣"},{"start":23696.577,"end":23702.8,"text":"你不要想說憲法大法官我管你管你那麼多我立法委員我選出來最新民意愛怎麼樣就可以怎麼樣不對我們的憲法第75條你去把它看就像你就算你很大你想去任命任何一個官吏憲法也跟你說不行啊"},{"start":23714.964,"end":23718.929,"text":"也許NCC不符合這個社會大眾的期待不符合在野黨朋友你們對它整個這個獨立機關的一個期許但是呢並不會因此它的行政上的人事任命權就把它移轉到立法院我很仔細的去把它比較"},{"start":23733.587,"end":23733.827,"text":"三）委員傅崐萁等34人擬具"},{"start":23755.931,"end":23770.851,"text":"不能討論,送相關委員去審查,然後到最後來做一個表決。到了3月15號,副委員再提出來的又不一樣了。立法院推舉審查委員會,行政院提名,然後送審查委員會,審查委員會二分之一同意以後,立法院同意,這樣就可以了。"},{"start":23772.992,"end":23774.292,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":23796.36,"end":23800.305,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":23811.317,"end":23827.426,"text":"你看2006年那一次當初在審的時候國民黨四個、民進黨四個、親民黨兩個、台聯一個審到最後投票投了三輪所有的學者專家本來是社會上享有輕易的結果經過投票以後一一全部都現行"},{"start":23828.413,"end":23831.196,"text":"本來都是叫做社會選黨結果投票出來以後呢到最後每一個人政黨的傾向一清二楚啊到最後啊你看那個選出來的那13個裡面呢連清到那個電機系主任呂中軍的講說我讓你們立法院愚弄一下到最後實際上就上任的才9個"},{"start":23847.47,"end":23862.857,"text":"連你們那個蘇永清後來要當主委他跟你講說NCC少了電信學者就少了一條腿啊所以過度的政黨的一個干預啊本來是要排除到最後要重新提出來的版本公家本不像話好 謝謝那接下來我們請吳思耀委員"},{"start":23873.915,"end":23896.447,"text":"謝謝主席各位同仁我雖然來不及去參與過去NCC在建制之初的立法但是我很有榮幸我可以有在一次修法的時候來捍衛一個可長可久不論誰執政都能夠穩健運行的NCC的組織的修法我也會承擔這樣的責任跟使命"},{"start":23897.347,"end":23900.049,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":23914.645,"end":23935.85,"text":"推動很急、然後手段很強硬的特色。」我另一步來歸納,如果通過了今天NCC組織法,它形同是四個惡法的極大成。第一,它是很清楚的選擇性、針對性、因人設置的一個修法。"},{"start":23936.994,"end":23952.357,"text":"二）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。厲（二）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。厲（二）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。厲（二）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。厲（二）委員洪"},{"start":23959.218,"end":23976.785,"text":"就是中華民國法制史上第一個唯一一個已經被大法官釋憲釋字613號清楚說明他是違反憲法的法律居然還有立法委員要重蹈覆轍"},{"start":23977.987,"end":23992.665,"text":"所以這是史上第一個也是唯一一個已經經過大法官釋憲是違憲的修法還要再搞一次所以這四個都形成我們今天看到的這個惡法萬萬不可"},{"start":23995.729,"end":24021.999,"text":"我今天很快速的來討論剛剛大家分析過但是民進黨的委員審查法案是非常的嚴謹我們研讀了四加一個法案我們講到國民黨傅昆齊委員一人有兩版一版是傅昆齊委員提案一版可能是傅齊昆委員的提案他完全是政黨的黑手介入提名他剝奪了行政院的提名權違憲"},{"start":24023.74,"end":24039.416,"text":"他的草案內容A版B版前後矛盾不管在能不能連任的機制是矛盾的在政黨比例黨籍可以超過幾位兩個版本大不相同前後矛盾自打嘴巴"},{"start":24040.197,"end":24067.575,"text":"副官企委員跟傅琦坤委員的提案呢同樣的抵觸了憲法保障的人民參政權因為他規範到離職之後三年不得參選公職我們來看看侯孟楷委員的提案我也歸納他同樣介入了政黨介入提名剝奪行政院的提名權以及破壞了任期交錯制可能癱瘓NCC的運作"},{"start":24070.014,"end":24093.814,"text":"王小林委員提案,更是發生了史上獨創的五位NCC委員其中三人是由立法院提名,完全剝奪行政院的提名權,完全違反憲法的權力分立的原則。同樣,王小林委員的版本破壞了任期的交錯制,也會讓NCC的運作予以空轉。"},{"start":24095.015,"end":24108.801,"text":"那黃國昌委員今天提出來的修正動議他是採行公共電視董事會的方法來對未來NCC的組織法簡單講他把公視董事會的運作複製貼上"},{"start":24110.562,"end":24112.503,"text":"事實上公視董事會的組成必須實踐媒體發展的多元價值,跟NCC監理媒體需要專業導入的精神跟原則完全不同。"},{"start":24125.569,"end":24141.284,"text":"而且黃國昌他複製了公視董事會由立法院推薦9名社會公認人士來組成審查委員會這樣子的公視的機制移植到NCC委員大家不要忘了公視正因為政黨"},{"start":24142.345,"end":24168.666,"text":"介入每一次的政黨提名的審查委員會都沒有辦法搞定乃至於公共電視創下史上966天沒有辦法產生新董事會的僵局這都是橫在眼前告訴我們政黨要自治如果政黨的黑手介入了媒體"},{"start":24170.047,"end":24188.72,"text":"介入了NCC他的空轉、他的癱瘓歷史已經告訴我們有相當的經驗所以再一次請大家呼籲大家惡法萬萬不可今天在這裡如果要創下中華民國史上第一個"},{"start":24189.801,"end":24214.997,"text":"已經被宣告違憲還要強行重修一次而且越修越離譜這樣一個歷史上的惡名我覺得大家都很難以承擔請大家三思請大家萬思謝謝好謝謝那下一位請林思明委員好林思明委員棄權那下一位請游昊委員"},{"start":24216.598,"end":24218.739,"text":"有話委員棄權黃國昌委員今天台灣民眾黨所提出來的修正動議"},{"start":24242.52,"end":24270.015,"text":"跟大法官釋字613號的解釋沒有相違我相信把法條的文字跟釋憲文看清楚就不會有這樣子的困惑。倒是我必須要談的事情是當民進黨政府口口聲聲說我們的NCC要獨立要專業在實際上面操作的時候是不是這個樣子"},{"start":24271.858,"end":24293.096,"text":"讓我帶大家回顧一下歷史2010年3月11號的時候那個時候啊NCC准了什麼准了台數科新聞台的執照結果當時的行政院院長蘇貞昌啊震怒震怒一個禮拜以後"},{"start":24294.983,"end":24320.122,"text":"自己的決議自己就推翻了。所有的媒體下的標是什麼?所有的媒體下的標是綠派系糾葛台數科新聞台到手七天就廢了。民進黨以前是黨政軍退出媒體但現在呢就如同柯文哲主席講的一樣黨政軍就是媒體"},{"start":24321.363,"end":24339.133,"text":"不僅要控制電視台而且是每一個派系都要有他的電視台也正是一樣這樣子病態的政媒結構會出現媒體的大亨非常囂張的講啊"},{"start":24341.052,"end":24344.973,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案案案案案"},{"start":24362.332,"end":24388.812,"text":"有人還說那個錄音檔啊是偽造變造的我負責任跟大家講我取得原始的音檔送交鑑定送交鑑定跟美國FBI聲文鑑定的是同一個單位的鑑定出來這個音檔完全是真的等到謊言被戳破了以後才急忙的說啊他只是在碰轟隨便講講"},{"start":24391.24,"end":24416.118,"text":"但是呢這位所謂碰轟在隨便講講的人進電視的執照緊緊的握在手上我們的NCC不惜說謊不惜擺爛也要怎麼樣護航到底這是為什麼今天在質詢的時候我說了為什麼敢這麼囂張因為這是總統的旨意"},{"start":24419.625,"end":24432.176,"text":"更可笑的是口口聲聲說〝NCC委員不可以用政黨比例代表制的民主進步黨〞實際上面在做的是什麼?"},{"start":24433.295,"end":24459.723,"text":"實際上面在做的是邀請柯文哲主席到總統府去的時候我們的總統蔡英文是親自開口親自開口說接下來4名委員國民黨兩席台灣民眾黨一席民進黨一席這樣好不好請問NCC委員是可以這樣分配的NCC委員是可以這樣分配的"},{"start":24460.655,"end":24483.171,"text":"這個就是民進黨所謂的不可以按照政黨比例代表但是可以什麼只要他們掌握多數掌握最高權力的人想要私下用腳的我已經公開說過啦台灣民眾黨對這樣的對這樣子的建議拒絕拒絕因為NCC不應該讓民進黨這樣搞爛下去謝謝"},{"start":24494.784,"end":24515.837,"text":"那接下來我們請翁曉琳委員剛剛聽了民進黨委員說NCC他是獨立機關獨立機關的這個重點呢就是要專業性要去政治化"},{"start":24517.267,"end":24538.252,"text":"我同意當時要設計NCC成為獨立機關的確我們希望他能夠達到獨立性專業性以及這個退出黨政軍以及這個維持黨政軍退出媒體的這樣精神可是請大家看看我們現在NCC有專業嗎電信打詐沒專業"},{"start":24545.14,"end":24574.11,"text":"所作的處分屢屢被法院撤銷。」這叫有專業喔。再說,NCC現在已經是被大家所公認高度政治化的機關。這個任何,我常常認為說,其實任何的這個組織制度,好像到了民進黨政府手上,就被完成是一個邪惡的制度。"},{"start":24575.066,"end":24592.722,"text":"我認為說這個原來的NCC的這個組織設計可能沒有那麼糟但是在2016年蔡英文執政之後的NCC我們看到它就是越來越走樣"},{"start":24594.29,"end":24615.095,"text":"這也是我們今天為什麼要參考西方國家更好的獨立機關的設計必須要引入國會的力量來平衡這個越來越走偏的NCC本席所提的法案裡面廢除NCC的這個交錯任期制"},{"start":24616.581,"end":24630.326,"text":"主要的理由也是我實在是看不出來NCC現在是有什麼業務經驗是需要傳承的是有委員被詐騙的經驗嗎還是有委員當詐騙門神的經驗嗎還是他們聽命行事的經驗我實在不認為NCC的委員的經驗是有需要傳承"},{"start":24643.666,"end":24672.146,"text":"再說我其實很佩服柯總召他現在真的成為了我們立法院的大法官動不動就對我們所提的法案指指點點說我們的法案又違憲又違法我實在不知道柯總召您是什麼時候可能是您小的時候年輕的時候曾經讀過憲法吧您現在還有讀憲法嗎"},{"start":24674.414,"end":24682.942,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條及法制、交通"},{"start":24684.119,"end":24686.64,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":24711.63,"end":24718.536,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委"},{"start":24738.992,"end":24748.042,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第"},{"start":24760.715,"end":24776.347,"text":"會秉持的法律專業,秉持的對國外還有對我國的這個憲法相關制度的比較,他們會知道什麼才是正確的。」好,那以上說明,謝謝。好,謝謝。登記大體討論發言者就已發言完畢。"},{"start":24792.923,"end":24815.619,"text":"指揮各位委員同仁針對剛才候選委員問我你什麼時候讀過憲法?你年輕的時候有沒有讀過憲法?級長有沒有讀過憲法?我現在告訴你齁我年輕的時候是牙醫師近來一年三十一年但是我現在還是2.1百牙醫師我在虎口拔牙專門拔滾膿牙齒"},{"start":24819.622,"end":24841.668,"text":"所以以彼此這樣的精神的立法院以來坦白講31年時間我當23年的總召我看過所有法案我參加過700場的所有學章所以我手上經過法案超過6000個我是每一個字每一個字看所以憲法的精神很簡單憲法就是一個"},{"start":24843.446,"end":24857.725,"text":"國家的新人自習最重要的基本法,也就是大法官是守門者,你先生都是大法官,我不知道你德國慕尼黑章怎麼讀的,這一點不好意思太漏氣了,但是我要講的就是說,"},{"start":24858.886,"end":24880.5,"text":"所謂憲法、徵修條文和憲法本文也要並看。憲法有三條,行政院是最高層的國家行政機關。憲法就三條規定什麼?憲法就規定立法委員執行一節、一算法律、宣戰過後等等條案等等。對不對?那這樣徵修條文是什麼?行政院長是"},{"start":24883.062,"end":24896.542,"text":"總統是明顯他派來行政院就要被刑你要有執行之前這很簡單所以我們這是一個check base假如你假如你通過法案行政院覺得不妥他可以呼籲然後呢"},{"start":24898.437,"end":24920.695,"text":"立法院捷運行動團隊委員會提出普通信案及解散國會。好像現在我們已經快要面對這個時刻了。所以憲法的規定是一個潛力覆立原則,就是立法院是可以監督制衡,但是立法院不可能造法,而且超越憲法的造法,連大法官都不可能造法。所以今天我們談的這很淺顯的道理。"},{"start":24923.817,"end":24941.106,"text":"那所有的包括今天黃國昌談的時候他的期案沒有違和他根本就寫政黨比喻是啊他寫很清楚啊你們都寫著政黨比喻是所以政黨比喻是613號解釋就是如此剝奪了行政院長的人事權"},{"start":24942.106,"end":24970.428,"text":"這很清楚啊,只要你不清楚回去問你老公可能會比較好一點今天我要告訴你一個事情你們今天所有的事在做違憲的處理總統是權宜問題,這個不是權宜問題的啦我把這個陳述的權宜問題陳述清楚啦我講五概咧這是不是這樣所以我要把為什麼要陳述清楚,大家要了解我們都要向上海地頭"},{"start":24971.83,"end":24996.911,"text":"這是一個非常嚴肅的信任時刻,只要在這裡做違憲的審查,違憲的表達結果,剛剛胡文綺的違憲,胡文綺解釋要發手機的喔,不要這樣說話,等一下再做組織動作,他那個版本都,兩個都打架了,兩個打架了,到底主任委員還是副主任委員,你第一個版本誰要複選,第二個版本誰提名,這根本不對吧。我覺得這樣就好了齁。"},{"start":25001.014,"end":25003.896,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":25029.392,"end":25032.675,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":25052.939,"end":25076.033,"text":"陳主委可能要先就剛剛有有官員自己自己離開喔這件事可能要跟委員會就是致歉一下是是不是我要這邊正式或是你過來這邊正式對我想這個是不管哪一個政黨啦我想他們都很關心一下這關於這個議題就麻煩主委就這部分要致歉"},{"start":25079.965,"end":25102.681,"text":"主席、各位委員對於我們黃竹敏在沒有跟取得主席的同意前離開會場這件事情我們代表NCC跟委員會今天的聯席審查包括司法法制委員會還有交通委員會深自愜意。好,謝謝。政府要幹什麼?你現在要處理什麼互來協議啊?你現在要處理什麼?要進入五條啊?"},{"start":25113.921,"end":25133.615,"text":"那我們現在有委員提案請宣讀宣讀後處理沒有剛剛是因為你剛剛不在這邊剛剛有一個官員他在中間沒有跟我們講他就我們只是請處理一下這件事好那請宣讀好像那時候是魯明哲在問的時候"},{"start":25135.356,"end":25150.787,"text":"提案針對本次會議討論事項之審查及處理,為此依視順暢進行。原件請本次會議不再處理,三會動議。提案人委員羅志強、林思明、翁曉林、林佩翔、魯明哲、林國城、黃建豪宣讀完畢。"},{"start":25165.663,"end":25192.563,"text":"我齁在這邊最大的學習就是跟著柯總召跟著民進黨走齁為什麼呢為了避免齁走到今天暫停齁麥克風又開著又違規啦不要啦新海羅盤不要這樣啦你最好不要聽到我聽到我就等一下要請你問題喔你按著那個麥克風不要按嘛大家都有規矩不要學吳思堯吳思堯不要歪好不好你走到我就請你問題喔不要再按著麥克風了好不好"},{"start":25193.363,"end":25196.945,"text":"我非常敬佩民進黨所以我今天仿照民進黨的這個議事規則的慣例避免發生上次吳宗憲召委主持會議有40次山會動議在杯葛擾亂議事的情況"},{"start":25219.67,"end":25238.882,"text":"我這個仿效民國106年8月29號民進黨曾經提出不得再提散會動議這個是非常棒的民主的風範的展示所以我們決定讓這個歷史風範再顯現一次也避免再發生40次散會動議的情況發生所以我這邊特別提出"},{"start":25240.263,"end":25259.188,"text":"這次會議我們已經從上午9點到討論到下午那個3點半了我們就繼續討論下去不准再提就停止再提三會動議以上好謝謝那請問各位有無異議沒有異議的話就提案通過好那接下來我們"},{"start":25274.352,"end":25293.581,"text":"中和答互AK齊文吉答 沒問題洪孟楷 羅智政你不要食人牙慧嘛 都是笑評啊當時我們問說提三位代議是你們強硬點過"},{"start":25296.271,"end":25308.195,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案件、通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案件、通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案件、通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文"},{"start":25319.56,"end":25346.519,"text":"導口回音 根本在做混淆動作所以這個年輕人你這樣要拜我回師要長進一點好不好本人不說剛剛已經說了通過那還有一個提案還有一個還有一個動議那一樣給那個民進黨他們一份"},{"start":25348.492,"end":25354.485,"text":"現在還有一個動議是由羅志強委員提出那我們請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":25357.972,"end":25383.637,"text":"動議未維護本會履行憲法職權之行使,並使會議得以順暢進行,原提請處符合會議規範,鎖定權宜問題並經會議主席財事責外,本次會議不再處理權宜問題、秩序問題、會議詢問等動議。提案人委員羅志強、翁小林、魯明哲、黃建豪、廖先祥、林思明、林佩祥、謝龍介、邱若驊、林國成宣布完畢。"},{"start":25385.787,"end":25392.572,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一、二、三、四條條文修正草案．一、二、三、四條條文修正草案．一、二、三、四條條文修正草案"},{"start":25411.224,"end":25432.083,"text":"所以我這次也是仿照2017年8月25日民進黨提案為本院履行憲法鎖定立法權之行使使立法院會議得以進行原提請除符合會議規範鎖定權宜問題並經院會主席裁示者外本次會議不再處理權宜問題、秩序問題跟會議行為等動議"},{"start":25435.746,"end":25440.472,"text":"這是民進黨過去提過的喔!民進黨過去提過的喔!不要再跟我講違反議事規則喔!不要再打臉自己喔!我唯一這個動議齁我今天比較遺憾的啦我應該算說也包括不再處理新海羅盤啦"},{"start":25450.703,"end":25463.749,"text":"新海羅盤,這樣子下去也沒完沒了所以拜託主席喔我們今天跟著民進黨民主的道路前進對不對最民主風範的民進黨以前提說不准散會動議也說不可以會議詢問權益問題、秩序問題今天複製民進黨的民主謝謝"},{"start":25479.741,"end":25487.765,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13屆議員會組織法第14屆議員會組織法第16屆議員會組織法第17屆議員會組織法第18屆議員會組織法第18屆議員會組織法第19屆議員會組織法第19屆議員會組織法第20屆議員會組織法第21屆議員會組織法第21屆議員會組織法第22屆議員會組織法第22屆議員會組織法第22屆議員會組織法第23屆議員會組織法第24屆議員會組織法第"},{"start":25501.311,"end":25506.113,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案案案案。"},{"start":25531.635,"end":25553.644,"text":"謝謝總召我除了周萬來的書以外我學習最多就是柯總召的經驗謝謝沒有你都是那個實際案例好請問一下剛剛就這個提案有無大家有無異議沒有那就提案通過好那我們接下來謝謝好好"},{"start":25560.711,"end":25582.785,"text":"好那我們接下來就進行逐條審查好現在審查第四條請問提案人有無提案說明第四條的部分有提案以及修正動議請問有沒有人要做提案說明好沒有齁"},{"start":25590.531,"end":25619.449,"text":"因為第四條同時出現傅崐萁委員有兩個案子那是不是提案委員要說明一下他到底經過消化哪一個案子是您認為在這裡討論是比較您代表您提出來的否則兩個案子我們是要討論傅崐萁委員的哪一個案子呢那每一個案子因為前後有漢格那矛盾的還蠻嚴重的是不是可以請這個傅崐萁委員的這兩個提案可以具體說明一下我們才能夠進入條文的理解好嗎"},{"start":25620.009,"end":25623.133,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":25643.857,"end":25670.047,"text":"大聲講就好了,你們要知道我大聲講的就是上午就講過主席宣告過我要隨便按麥克風談話我只是提醒主席維持會長秩序那這樣齁兩位如果要聊會後再聊我們現在先進行會議進行好了提案委員有沒有要補充沒有齁"},{"start":25672.883,"end":25674.952,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":25678.24,"end":25695.875,"text":"都要問的都讓他們問李卿這個時間從早上9點已經開會開到現在剛剛你講過沒有會議詢問沒有任何權益問題請主席請主席趕快處理討論現在我們是主條我們現在進行的是主條的討論那其他的就不要再因為我們剛剛已經提案通過了主席我們主條論是在座位上的麥克風還是要進的主題同意才能到法院來"},{"start":25705.162,"end":25707.504,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":25718.857,"end":25720.358,"text":"條文內容討論第四條,我要發言"},{"start":25745.458,"end":25757.806,"text":"那個我想請問一下我想進入主條主條就是要討論我現在在表達我的意見確實有意見所以要討論我想請問一下我想"},{"start":25769.045,"end":25789.776,"text":"我想請問不是主席的權限不是總召的權限不是如果大家還是要這樣子然後大家都要搶答那就沒有什麼好談了嘛我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談了我們就沒有什麼好談"},{"start":25798.681,"end":25822.782,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第21會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第"},{"start":25824.724,"end":25826.325,"text":"立法院第4條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":25844.514,"end":25846.515,"text":"主席剛才不是說主條討論嗎?主條是一條一條,討論就是討論我跟你講啦,我跟各位說明一下啦"},{"start":25871.696,"end":25894.816,"text":"從早上到現在其實我覺得大家根本就沒有共識嘛那我們今天再吵下去還是沒有共識啊早上是尋打保留保留都講過了那剛剛羅志強不是提案不得散會嗎不得散會就要逐條討論啊也不過四條而已啊"},{"start":25896.777,"end":25917.069,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具、「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具、「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具、「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具、「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．"},{"start":25926.969,"end":25927.86,"text":"總委就休息一分鐘。"},{"start":26058.918,"end":26083.269,"text":"還沒討論?還沒表示意見就要...就要...倒遊啊?不是啊?請你上一年版本,為什麼從第七屆開始?你擦...擦...擦以前版本吧?你怎麼回答他?你為什麼從第七屆開始?各位以前維新版本在哪出來擦嘛?"},{"start":26084.425,"end":26087.213,"text":"現在是第十一屆啊!好啦 休息休息啊"},{"start":26166.26,"end":26167.142,"text":"好啦!要登記趕快來登記啦!"},{"start":26268.339,"end":26271.941,"text":"現在有提案人傅昆齊委員提出動議,那我們現在先處理動議。再請宣讀。"},{"start":26293.631,"end":26316.705,"text":"針對本次會議討論事項第四條建請停止討論並保留交付黨團協商是否有當敬請公決?提案人委員傅崐萁、羅志強、林國誠、邱若驊、黃建豪、陳雪生、游浩、廖先祥、謝龍介、魯明哲。宣讀完畢。這個延期討論會議資據跟邱先。"},{"start":26332.342,"end":26339.47,"text":"現在應有柯建民提案,那我們先宣讀提案內容。"},{"start":26345.187,"end":26370.055,"text":"針對本次會議建請嚴會至本日半夜夜間12時提案人委員柯建銘、何新淳、許智傑、鍾嘉斌、吳思瑤、莊瑞雄、李坤澤、陳俊宇、徐富奎、陳素月、蔡其章宣讀完畢。好,那對兩個動議吼,那就第一個..."},{"start":26374.195,"end":26399.02,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第21會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第22會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第23會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第24會期"},{"start":26401.004,"end":26424.135,"text":"我們現在先處理柯建民委員所提出來的提案提案說明怎麼可以吧?提案說明可以嗎?提案說明呢?我沒有再給你程序問題了本人熟悉法令好那兩分鐘我們說提案說明兩分鐘兩分鐘是誰定的?我可以盡數啦"},{"start":26428.766,"end":26432.852,"text":"立法院第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":26444.668,"end":26449.093,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":26467.708,"end":26471.089,"text":"立法院第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第四條條文修正"},{"start":26494.818,"end":26501.661,"text":"立法院第12屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一、二、三、四條條文修正草案．一、二、三、四條條文修正草案．一、二、三、四條條文"},{"start":26524.679,"end":26549.647,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、"},{"start":26553.947,"end":26570.557,"text":"那我們現在就進行我們現在進行表決針對研會動議進行表決好那表決前我們先清點在場出席人數26號到場出席委員26人那現在開始表決那贊成者請舉手"},{"start":26583.632,"end":26584.092,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":26602.437,"end":26622.091,"text":"現在宣讀表決結果出席26人贊成12位反對14位言會動議贊成者少數不通過我們現在開始處理第二個提案第四條保留交付黨團協商"},{"start":26626.394,"end":26629.135,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":26655.408,"end":26662.974,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":26686.459,"end":26694.244,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第12屆第14條條文修正草案．一）立法院第12屆第14條條文修正草案．一．"},{"start":26707.898,"end":26714.883,"text":"還沒有開始討論怎麼可以停止討論還沒有開始討論怎麼可以停止討論沒有討論又沒收了討論又沒收了討論國民黨民主黨又減少沒收了討論反對12人停止討論動議多數通過"},{"start":26735.014,"end":26761.455,"text":"立法院第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第2會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第3會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第5會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第6會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第7會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第8會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第8會期司法及法制、交通委員會組"},{"start":26764.062,"end":26765.502,"text":"條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":26789.108,"end":26794.931,"text":"立法院第11屆第12屆議員會組織法第13屆議員會組織法第14屆議員會組織法第15屆議員會組織法第16屆議員會組織法第17屆議員會組織法第18屆議員會組織法第18屆議員會組織法第19屆議員會組織法第19屆議員會組織法第20屆議員會組織法第21屆議員會組織法第22屆議員會組織法第23屆議員會組織法第24屆議員會組織法第26屆議員會組織法第27屆議員會組織法第28屆議員會組織法第29屆議員會組織法第30屆議員會組"},{"start":26816.721,"end":26832.694,"text":"我剛剛已經問完了提案人,提案人沒有要補充說明。好,那請問就第八條的部分,大家有無異議?等一下,等一下,你剛才提的討論後面是什麼?是不予審議還是什麼東西?要講清楚,結論是什麼?結論後面是什麼?"},{"start":26838.365,"end":26841.186,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":26866.545,"end":26868.026,"text":"立法院第11屆第1次聯席會議"},{"start":26888.2,"end":26916.237,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第19條條文修正草案．立法院第19條條文修正草案．立法院第20條條文修正草案．立法院第21條條文修正草案．立法院第22條條文修正草案．立法院第23條條文修正草案．立法院第24條條文修正草案．立法院第27條條文修"},{"start":26920.861,"end":26937.197,"text":"你就形式讓我們登記一下,你再做停職討論。沒有,停職討論,洪孟楷是怎麼樣一個結婚的?當然,問題是這個組織委員會。主要審查就是結果啊。你們要贊成我那團隊也可以啊。"},{"start":26940.555,"end":26942.657,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案例"},{"start":26956.493,"end":26975.885,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第"},{"start":26976.886,"end":26979.008,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":26990.463,"end":26994.947,"text":"檢視委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":27018.955,"end":27023.557,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":27043.806,"end":27049.849,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":27064.73,"end":27068.578,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":27078.831,"end":27087.575,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":27104.227,"end":27115.032,"text":"你處理臨時提案的討論嗎?還有兩條那當然差別很大"},{"start":27130.326,"end":27139.15,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":27202.423,"end":27229.276,"text":"主席主席主席我來提一個正當的一個權宜問題啦你現在說齁在浪費大家時間這個講法就不對啦我們的議事規則第33條的規定是主席對於議案的討論認為已達可付表決的程度的時候啊才是徵得出席委員的一同意才停止討論啊你這不是啊你這連討論也不討論你要停止討論是討論過後有達到可決的程度啊"},{"start":27230.742,"end":27233.865,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":27261.965,"end":27282.719,"text":"大體討論完主席才是要逐條討論嘛!他已經才是啦!我們也登記啦!我們都還沒討論的啊!我們都還沒討論的啊!阿都沒討論你們當然說有意見!你們如果怕我昏迷我就想都沒有了!"},{"start":27283.908,"end":27286.629,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員"},{"start":27304.008,"end":27331.223,"text":"如果這樣我就一直按消音鍵了要罵就來罵我沒關係我沒差來我現在先來討論一下來我們現在討論一下現在有委員提第八條停止討論並保留交付黨團協商的提案那就這個部分看大家有沒有異議"},{"start":27332.967,"end":27353.246,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14條條文修正草案．立法院第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織"},{"start":27360.458,"end":27366.343,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":27388.688,"end":27390.109,"text":"第八條停止討論並保留動議,贊成者請舉手。"},{"start":27406.121,"end":27435.436,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第十四條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十四條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條條文修正草案．立法院第十八條文修正草案�"},{"start":27437.506,"end":27463.974,"text":"那台上常常有提案的好那我們現在在處理下一個提案柯建民委員提案來我們請議事人員宣讀提案內容針對本次會議延長開會時間至11時提案人委員柯建民等宣讀完畢"},{"start":27469.312,"end":27491.854,"text":"一問就本提案,針對本次會議延長開會時間至11點,請問各位有無異議?好,那請進行提案說明。主席啊,生日祭春口水啊,你不要給他們指揮來,你亂亂套。"},{"start":27495.1,"end":27521.103,"text":"第四條的時候、第五條的時候根本沒有議決啊。沒有議決就直接親自討論。討論結果是怎麼樣?那是保留還是不通過?還是要刪除?根本都沒有嘛。阿你現在第八條也是一樣嘛。主席阿,洪國昌等會比較急著沒關係啦。你叫他看手機啊,你傳簡訊給他就好啦。"},{"start":27524.793,"end":27540.769,"text":"我們現在是提延長開會時間,剛才是12點啦我看大家有點累,我們就到11點就好好不好那各位好事沒做的啦所以因為要延長開會時間到11點那現在是幾點"},{"start":27548.853,"end":27574.646,"text":"還有7個小時所以7個小時我們要做一個合宇安排那怎麼來處理這11個小時所以勢必要一直討論每一條我們要討論本來議事規約31條的時候進入討論的時候沒有結論的時候沒有發言次數限制本來就是如此議事規約31條我們都依法行事就好了請各位副委員"},{"start":27576.348,"end":27598.212,"text":"你不要再看手機嘛你以為你一個人還有黃汪峰進來你們兩個人加起來國會過半就可以扶植輝瑋啊歷史正在看到你們的所以我們老委員尤其年輕的委員你們看到立法院來看那種怪現象的時候尤其這是你想像中的國會嗎這根本不是大家想像的國會啊還有幾年就好了"},{"start":27605.385,"end":27622.716,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具:「國家通�"},{"start":27633.666,"end":27658.247,"text":"那針對本次會議延長開會至晚兼十一時好那因為有意義那我們就進行表決好了在場人數清點過了26人好那我們現在開始進行表決好沒問題那再幫我統計一下好26人沒有錯"},{"start":27662.458,"end":27672.268,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":27687.004,"end":27704.071,"text":"反對者14人表決結果在場出席委員26人贊成者12人反對者14人贊成者少數不通過"},{"start":27710.609,"end":27724.775,"text":"我們現在審查第十條那請問第十條提案委員有提案說明有提案說明沒有提案說明那我們現在開始進入討論"},{"start":27729.745,"end":27752.276,"text":"我們進入討論,因為有委員提出第十條停止討論並保留交付黨團協商的提案,那我們先處理。你現在要我處理這個?對,延長開會時間,還有要點名表決。一起啊,這兩個是一起的。"},{"start":27758.274,"end":27766.798,"text":"那個聽之討論是優先的,對,所以我們現在是聽之討論。為什麼聽之討論是優先?上位動議才是優先啊。那你問一下議事人員嘛。"},{"start":27781.38,"end":27783.761,"text":"立法院第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":27804.778,"end":27808.922,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法"},{"start":27831.368,"end":27851.675,"text":"所以國民黨的顏值比民進黨高這不是偶然的好我們現在開始我們就第十條停止討論說明一下不要一直打斷啦沒有討論根本不知道要搞什麼鬼啦我們等一下點到名的請說明贊成或反對我有肖像權了"},{"start":27862.194,"end":27877.058,"text":"我現在開始點名表決第一位黃國昌反發會贊成反對倪崑澤反對陳俊宇反對林國誠羅志強鍾嘉斌反對"},{"start":27890.827,"end":27898.21,"text":"中瑞雄等15人擬具李思明等15人擬具吳思瑤等15人擬具謝龍介等15人擬具蔡其昌等15人擬具"},{"start":27914.517,"end":27922.34,"text":"荷興淳等25人擬具、「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":27942.352,"end":27956.105,"text":"廖先祥、柯建民、林佩祥、黃建豪、翁曉琳、陳雪生、"},{"start":27965.606,"end":27992.095,"text":"好,那我們點名表決結果在場出席委員26人贊成14人反對12人贊成者多數通過第10條聽之討論並保留贊成者多數通過各位是這樣搞的嗎?就可以關門了吧?搞了半天來選舉來做當局副主席的表決工具啊"},{"start":27994.745,"end":27996.666,"text":"民眾黨也不應該如此吧不要啦"},{"start":28029.385,"end":28040.741,"text":"議員還有一個附帶決要處理,我們先處理附帶決議。有一個附帶決議,那請提案人羅志強等人,那我們先請議事人員宣讀。"},{"start":28042.071,"end":28068.102,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。厲應不受政治力干擾,為現任委員未能秉持客觀、中立及專業立場,致紛爭不斷。陳耀祥主任委員已公開表示,不會再接受提名及續任,為維護機關獨立性與公信力,原要求經113年7月任期屆滿之原任委員應比照陳耀祥主任委員公開對外宣示,除不再接受行政委員會組織法第四條文修正草案案。"},{"start":28073.109,"end":28077.271,"text":"若行政院於原委員任職時亦不再接受嚴任主動辭職以示負責提案人委員羅志強等宣讀完畢。"},{"start":28098.689,"end":28101.31,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法"},{"start":28115.452,"end":28131.687,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員傅崐萁等23人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織"},{"start":28142.997,"end":28168.713,"text":"113年7月任期屆滿之原任委員應比照陳耀祥主任委員公開對外宣誓除不再接受行政院提名續任外若行政院與原任委員任期屆滿前未能依規定提任時亦不再接受原任主動辭職以示負責。"},{"start":28171.747,"end":28191.201,"text":"這就是我們附帶決議的內容了解了啦請問就附帶決議部分大家有無意見好那如果有意見的話我們就進行表決那就舉手表決有一些要講啊陳浩翔委員那一段可以公開表揚我們贊成"},{"start":28192.179,"end":28194.881,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":28219.429,"end":28243.797,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第21會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第22會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第23會期"},{"start":28249.159,"end":28260.167,"text":"陳俊宇委員林國成委員羅志強委員鍾嘉斌委員副代決議的表決效力我如果反對會有什麼效力?"},{"start":28280.56,"end":28298.014,"text":"組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。議員法定人數不足。議員法定人數不足。議員法定人數不足。議員法定人數不足。議員法定人數不足。議員法定人數不足。"},{"start":28311.369,"end":28331.342,"text":"本案這麼離譜,強暴別人的意志,當然是反對啊!五十號委員五十號委員如果我們對於提案的內容有意見我們可以表達反對嗎?那你就寫提案者在這邊是沒有意義的對不對?那你反對提案我覺得還蠻尊重你反對的意見那五十號委員請問是反對嗎?您是反對嗎?還是贊成?反對啊好反對喔好謝鴻介委員"},{"start":28339.056,"end":28348.772,"text":"蔡奇昌委員何新淳委員許智傑委員陳素月委員余富奎委員布坤祺委員"},{"start":28352.062,"end":28378.999,"text":"有劃委員魯明哲委員邱若驊委員廖先祥委員柯建民委員林佩祥委員黃建豪委員黃曉琳委員陳雪生委員這古董人都賺掉了這是...人家都賺掉錢,你以為要賺選民嗎?"},{"start":28381.874,"end":28387.495,"text":"欸?漏掉一位是不是?對不起對不起李坤哲委員"},{"start":28389.184,"end":28390.025,"text":"指揮長指揮長指揮長指揮長指揮長指揮長指揮長指揮長"},{"start":28416.655,"end":28431.76,"text":"本案主條均疑處理完畢做一下宣告本案審查完畢擬具審查報告提請院會公決本案須交由委員長院會討論時由委員中線主席說明附帶決議項提報所會處理條次引述條項部分及法制用字用語授權主席及議事人員處理"},{"start":28447.137,"end":28461.771,"text":"對主席的財政意義、當場主席的宣告有意義,我們有提出面,意義。」好。意義啊,意義主席的宣告。意義啊。對此宣告有意義啊。好,沒關係,我來處理齁。"},{"start":28463.303,"end":28488.313,"text":"立法院第11會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第21會期司法及法制、交通"},{"start":28491.318,"end":28505.244,"text":"這位你們要不會問這位選民啊?這樣國會也要存在嗎?你要處理之前我要說明我的意義嘛"},{"start":28516.904,"end":28536.982,"text":"本席對於今日主席的裁決完全沒有尊重在場委員願意留下來討論的意願也在逐條的時候開始進行登記的時候已經有委員登記要討論卻不與登記的委員表示意見就敬為停止討論甚至第十條連"},{"start":28539.784,"end":28565.016,"text":"討論發言都還沒討論就提停止討論動議施論主席啊你今天這麼多的一個宣告這麼多的才事沒有進行討論就開始處理停止討論動議不好意思啊都還沒說運叫墮胎這個太離譜了太快了用一句話太離譜太快了本席對於你今日的宣告剛剛做的宣告對不起我們收回"},{"start":28568.9,"end":28596.794,"text":"請本席以說明方式為之要求對今日剛剛主席的宣告進行異議並要求點名表決。好謝謝那依據議事規則第32條那既然有委員對本席的處理方式有異議的話那請問各位委員是否同意鍾嘉斌委員提的異議?不同意的話那我們就進行表決好那"},{"start":28598.342,"end":28624.455,"text":"因為是要提點名表決嘛對不對好那我們現在進行點名表決那贊成就是剛中嘉賓委員對本期的那個才是有意義嘛那贊成的請表示贊成那反對的請表示反對好那我們現在開始點名表決黃國昌委員省發會委員贊成"},{"start":28627.506,"end":28643.515,"text":"理坤哲委員陳俊宇委員林國成委員羅志強委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾瑞雄委員林思明委員吳思堯委員謝榮介委員"},{"start":28647.509,"end":28674.957,"text":"蔡祺昌委員何欣淳委員許智傑委員陳素月委員徐富奎委員傅坤祺委員游浩委員盧明哲委員邱若驊委員廖先祥委員柯建民委員林佩祥委員黃劍豪委員翁曉琳委員陳雪生委員"},{"start":28680.845,"end":28701.016,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。據中嘉賓委員所提出來的議議點名表決結果,在場出席委員26人,贊成者12人,反對者14人。該議議贊成者未達出席委員半數,所以仍維持主席宣告這才是。討論事項都已經處理完畢。"},{"start":28710.785,"end":28714.388,"text":"現在處理延長會議時間動議我先跟各位委員報告一下就剛剛有委員提出了這一點的延長會議時間動議請問各位委員"},{"start":28739.936,"end":28745.662,"text":"請問各位委員,我們今天的議程都處理完畢了,那延長會議的時間其實沒有意義。"},{"start":28755.922,"end":28766.97,"text":"那這樣齁,那個經過之前跟那個柯總招阿伯他學習過齁,柯總阿伯他是包裹一次表決嘛,那是不是我們就學習柯總..."},{"start":28774.229,"end":28788.577,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第12屆第13屆立法院第14屆立法院第15屆立法院第16屆立法院第17屆立法院第18屆立法院第18屆立法院第19屆立法院第19屆立法院第20屆立法院第21屆立法院第22屆立法院第31屆立法院第32屆立法院第32屆立法院第33屆立法院第33屆立法院第34屆立法院第36屆立法院第37屆立法院第38屆立法院第39屆立法院第40屆立法院第41屆立法院第42屆立"},{"start":28790.723,"end":28799.474,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具"},{"start":28810.148,"end":28812.829,"text":"那我們現在就延長會議時間我們進行點名表決。"},{"start":28833.358,"end":28837.399,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":28869.933,"end":28874.975,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13屆議員會組織法第14屆議員會組織法第16屆議員會組織法第17屆議員會組織法第18屆議員會組織法第18屆議員會組織法第19屆議員會組織法第19屆議員會組織法第20屆議員會組織法第21屆議員會組織法第21屆議員會組織法第22屆議員會組織法第22屆議員會組織法第22屆議員會組織法第23屆議員會組織法第24屆議員會組織法第"},{"start":28895.762,"end":28898.775,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":28899.625,"end":28928.224,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第21會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第22會期司法"},{"start":28929.585,"end":28930.442,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、"},{"start":28937.177,"end":28945.783,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":28976.415,"end":28992.064,"text":"各位本席等提一個動議請各位好好聽不可能三位同意啦你的動議很簡單"},{"start":28994.07,"end":28996.972,"text":"組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":29038.789,"end":29062.052,"text":"那我跟各位報告有委員提案那我們先請議事人宣讀來這個部分先宣讀一下提案本次會議所提延長會議動議相同性質提案建請併案處理提案人委員羅志強等宣讀完畢主席你原來的提案都沒有提那個提案怎麼布好"},{"start":29065.302,"end":29067.724,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":29084.946,"end":29105,"text":"本次會議延長時間至9點15分提案人委員吳思瑤等本次會議延長會議至9點20分提案人委員吳思瑤等本次會議延長時間至9點30分提案人委員許智傑等提案本次會議延長時間至9點45分提案人委員吳思瑤等本次會議延長至9點50分提案人委員吳思瑤等提案針對本次會議點名表決延長會議開會時間至10點提案人委員許智傑等"},{"start":29115.848,"end":29125.261,"text":"本次會議延長會議至10點10分提案人委員吳思瑤等本次會議延長會議時間至10點20分提案人委員吳思瑤等提案本次會議請將請採點名表決延長會議時間至10點30分提案人委員莊瑞雄等"},{"start":29133.629,"end":29135.55,"text":"提案本次會議延長時間至10點45分,提案人委員吳思瑤等。」"},{"start":29170.157,"end":29197.431,"text":"這樣啦齁,那個我們現在先休息好了啦,我已經動不掉齁。我說我要上廁所啦,對。我們現在先休息。欸你休息都不用講休息,為什麼我休息要講休息多久?有嗎?好,那我們休息到5點半。"}]}},{"id":"15868","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15868","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2d648a477557a3c475ad9f551ce5fa921f3be8d109af184be41d9a76e78c80f3855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-01","start_time":"2024-05-01T08:30:15+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-16"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-01T11:57:59+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":12464,"委員發言時間":"08:30:15 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對關鍵基礎設施防害的防範以及強化那我們應該要來落實資通安全管理法相關的通報應變的機制"},{"start":2588.791,"end":2607.105,"text":"第6是加強情報收益跟掌搜的相關的發展趨勢．本局在今年的2月份有召開國家情報協調會報首長會議．也特別邀請行政院的同仁包括國土辦來參加．並且把各國強化設施韌性的具體做法．列為我們本年度情收的主要重點"},{"start":2608.286,"end":2627.02,"text":"最後一部分是結語那縱觀我國關鍵基礎設施的安全防護需要各單位、跨部會、公司協力共同來推動那本局會持續的以國家安全風險的角度協助我們政府來推動國土安全的政策強化關鍵基礎設施的韌性以上的報告請在場各位委員先進不吝指教謝謝"},{"start":2633.1,"end":2637.614,"text":"好接下來我們請行政院國土安全辦公室林主任進行報告"},{"start":2646.741,"end":2673.679,"text":"主席還有各位委員先進還有各位女士先生大家好那今天以下就我們書面的報告進行口頭的摘要的一個說明那報告分為四個部分首先第一個關鍵基礎設施防護指導的一個架構目前為了規劃國家關鍵基礎設施也就是Ci Critical Infrastructure的安全防護事項行政院定頒國家關鍵基礎設施安全防護指導綱要有建立三層的架構來進行分類管理"},{"start":2674.239,"end":2697.929,"text":"首先是主領域一功能屬性分為能源、水資源、通訊傳播等八大項各個主領域會設協調機關以共享資源與資訊、訂定共同的風險管理標準二次領域在主領域下在一功能業務宅區分為次領域如能源領域會再區分為電力、石油、天然氣三個次領域每個次領域會設一個主管機關"},{"start":2699.269,"end":2725.476,"text":"負責監督、管考、協助、鎖匣CI提供者來執行安全防護及演訓的相關事宜。那第三個就是CI的提供者也就是第一線實際維運CI的機關構。第二個部分目前CI安全防護的韌性目標跟策略那是以提升CI的耐災韌性作為安全防護的目標也就是各一項作為來降低運作中斷事故的影響的程度跟影響的時間"},{"start":2727.056,"end":2755.817,"text":"各執行的策略我們依照風險管理的三個階段是以災前預防階段為工作重點分數如下在災前預防階段我們會推動CIA安全防護計畫以全災害防護的概念實施風險管理各個CIA提供者要盤點關鍵基礎關鍵設施的資產跟脆弱點來辨識相關的風險項目風險項目必須是全災害的項目包含天災、人因事故、人為攻擊還有各種新型態的威脅等等"},{"start":2756.877,"end":2778.832,"text":"評估威脅的衝擊有多大之後．以設施核心功能持續營運韌性為目標．提出對應的管理措施．來擬定安全防護計畫。強化預警訊息的通報跟交流．來主動發掘違常的動態．各單位共同掌握危安症候狀況．確保影響西安安全防護．或持續營運事件的即時通報。"},{"start":2779.853,"end":2799.945,"text":"三、辦理巡檢及演練來驗證及強化應變的能量目前是建立行政院層級、部會層級以及CIA提供者三層級的巡檢跟演練機制在所謂的安全巡檢的部分指的是透過限定的巡檢來檢視各個CIA防務計畫的完整度跟落實度"},{"start":2800.845,"end":2804.507,"text":"防護演習透過桌推、兵推或是實兵演習來驗證安全防護機制與應變處置的有效度,並持續做檢討跟進進。加重惡意破壞的罰則"},{"start":2817.333,"end":2841.939,"text":"二組不法．對Ci重要設施的．不管是實體破壞．或者是虛擬的侵害等行為．影響功能正常運作者．我們就予以刑罰．那屬意圖危害國家安全．或社會安定．或釀災的．就予以加重來二組不法．那這個總統在去年6月18號已經公布施行．第二個在災中應變階段．首先Ci要依規來應處．來防止事件的擴大．"},{"start":2842.739,"end":2860.484,"text":"此外,也要依照國土安全緊急通報作業規定來進行通報,結合各單位的力量來共同支援。第二部分是緊密的行政跟國安合作,精準研判風險威脅,試礦提升應變成績。這部分是由國家安全局負責情勢的總和研判,並參與相關應變的一個編組,而各主管機關會立即啟動相關應變的計畫,"},{"start":2866.606,"end":2889.555,"text":"會議情勢需要來提升應變的層級結合中央與地方共同應對進行情搜、警戒、防堵、搜捕行動及後續的復原工作。在後復原階段持續檢討改善營運韌性當然要緊迫完成復原工作恢復CI的正常營運為工作重點並以各事件或演習發現的缺失來持續檢討改進營運的韌性。"},{"start":2892.256,"end":2921.291,"text":"第三大部分是Ci提供者安全防護韌性我們目前所要求的工作重點第一個部分是設備面要優化設備的持續營運能量首先要持續盤點設施的脆弱點及其強化措施包含資訊安全以及無人機侵擾等新型風險來強化相關的防禦措施、設備以及能量第二個要建立雙備援跟雙保險的機制另外我們也提醒重要資料要定期備份或異地備援"},{"start":2922.199,"end":2943.668,"text":"二、落實人因風險管理的作為首先設施首長是安全的總負責人另外各單位在執行的時候要落實關鍵操作要雙重確認第三在委外的場上部分身份安全要進行的查核而第四部分是限地的施工CIA的單位也應該要全程監督有建立這樣的機制"},{"start":2945.806,"end":2967.118,"text":"3.強化各項保安防護的量能首先,依我們善用新興科技的防護,例如電子圍籬、門禁管制或記錄等科技防範措施。下一頁第二部分,我們也建議要統合運用各項保安的人力,包含民防團隊、保安警察、保全人力,統合運用以收縱效。"},{"start":2968.158,"end":2991.243,"text":"是我們定期要求辦理教育訓練跟演習．來提升應變的能量．並與軍警、海巡、醫療等單位辦理演習．強化設施防護的量能。國際間CI受攻擊的比例有升高．各國也都重視CI營運的韌性跟相依性．本辦公室將持續會同各主管機關．跟CI的提供者．落實安全防護及"},{"start":2992.203,"end":3001.872,"text":"災前預防、災中應變及災後復原各階段工作並與時俱進以為設施安全的韌性以及國土安全以上報告,敬請各位委員會議指教"},{"start":3011.147,"end":3028.31,"text":"我們現在開始詢答本會委員7加2分鐘,非本會委員5分鐘10點30分發言登記截止如果有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右視詢答情形進行處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢"},{"start":3036.685,"end":3040.807,"text":"謝謝主席 有請國土辦林主任請國土辦林主任主任 不管是說我們國安局的報告或是我們國土辦的報告裏面都有特別提到就是說像國際戰事、恐怖活動其實攻擊關鍵基礎建設就可以達到這個政策、這個民心影響到這個社會的安定"},{"start":3065.035,"end":3084.683,"text":"當然我們還有看到就是我們國安局這邊還有提到說那也有人員的潛伏那裡應外合呢去起這個設施機敏的這個資訊或是刺激破壞設施的這個運作等等那臺灣對於這個這些我想我們都已經有一些"},{"start":3086.681,"end":3088.822,"text":"我會特別提到這個核電廠在2022年烏俄戰爭發生的時候其實俄羅斯那時佔領了這個車諾比這個核電廠"},{"start":3116.638,"end":3132.391,"text":"那時候就有發生就是說有人進到這個實驗室裡面呢搶走不少這個放射性的這個核廢料那這核廢料引起國際上的一陣的這個緊張大家都很擔心說這些放射性的核廢料如果"},{"start":3132.691,"end":3132.931,"text":"我想請問這個我們林主任"},{"start":3163.379,"end":3183.29,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒那這個當然這個能源的設施是關鍵基礎設施的一環那核能更是其中的一部分所以相關的這個電廠的一些防護我們都有一些相關的一些防護計畫從它的脆弱點到它的整個生命週期從它的"},{"start":3184.07,"end":3186.671,"text":"國土安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院"},{"start":3209.588,"end":3217.455,"text":"對,因為我們今天的題目有提到說國安新型態的風險威脅我想這個核廢料我想應該也是屬於這個國安新型態的風險威脅之一因為我們有看到俄烏戰爭所發生車諾比事件這個有些核廢料被竊取的這個事情那它衍生的可能就是還是國安的這個問題"},{"start":3233.148,"end":3235.23,"text":"臺灣有核電廠可能衍生的不單單只有放射性的問題可能衍生的是未來跟戰爭"},{"start":3251.608,"end":3254.37,"text":"臺海如果發生戰爭的話他很可能我們的核電廠會是在攻擊當中這是很重要的一點那再來可能會比如說他的核廢料的這個處理也是我們要所所要擔心的因為我有看到說這個"},{"start":3267.517,"end":3269.798,"text":"臺灣的核廢料到目前為止它的這個處理的方式還是一再的這個卡關我們可以看到說合一合二的這個乾淨計劃那什麼時候呢能夠啟用那還是一個未知數像我們核廢料其實處理的問題到目前還是未解雖然我們覺得說那未來如果發生"},{"start":3289.184,"end":3289.204,"text":"吳俄戰爭"},{"start":3305.448,"end":3329.819,"text":"陳諾比宣示的核廢料被竊的這個問題最主要是要提醒國土辦臺灣可能也會發生相同的這個事件因為經濟學人就在說地球上最危險的地方其實就是臺灣那這個部分可能就是要特別來審慎來思考那因為我在相關的這個報告裡面有看到就是說大家都會注意到一些說裡應外合這個問題這是讓我們覺得"},{"start":3333.821,"end":3334.221,"text":"謝謝主席委員長"},{"start":3362.421,"end":3362.741,"text":"蔡英文總統出訪有幫"},{"start":3386.332,"end":3387.393,"text":"國安局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告"},{"start":3413.711,"end":3435.692,"text":"主要的這個工作我想請教就是說未來未來如果說有類似這種狀況的話我們國安局要如何加強跟完善我們正副總統的這個違安的這個工作尤其很多國家我們並沒有執法權像這種騷擾事件或公職事件如果發生的話我們要如何加強保護我們元首的這個違安的這個工作"},{"start":3436.052,"end":3458.51,"text":"好謝謝委員那就我們的元首或是我們的安危對象在出訪期間那相關的維安工作是國安局主要的責任所以一般在行程規劃的過程當中我們大概就會派出我們的前置人員來瞭解可能維安對象到國外訪問的定點有哪些做必要的現刊那也會在現刊之後做好完備的安危的整備計畫那再來"},{"start":3461.232,"end":3477.178,"text":"提供相關的一個人力的配置來確保這一次的出訪行程可以完全那另外在過程當中我們也都跟當地的警察部門跟安全部門保持非常密切的聯繫在現場的相關的交通的動線以及不同場地的一個維安部署"},{"start":3477.398,"end":3477.798,"text":"主要是有所謂"},{"start":3505.549,"end":3525.023,"text":"不明的車輛在從機場移動到飯店的過程當中他有想要尾隨車隊可是當他開始要尾隨車隊的話就已經被我們的維安人員跟當地的警力給發現了第一時間就把他排除掉了所以並沒有造成任何的金字老現象那這也反映到我們安危計畫相關的整備還算相關的完備"},{"start":3528.636,"end":3552.751,"text":"蔡英文總統出訪有幫到過境美國的時候那中國那時候發動了他們所謂的中國僑民那之後我們有看到一些報導就是說他們所謂的中國僑民其實還是參雜了很多海外警察站的一些成員在裡面那這些海外警察站其實很多都是中國前軍人或情報人員所組成那像這個情資我們有沒有有所掌握"},{"start":3553.231,"end":3554.512,"text":"他們似乎不是單純的僑名"},{"start":3578.151,"end":3602.188,"text":"對,我們跟當地的警方也都還有調查單位也都掌握相關的資訊這也是為什麼我們在可能我們的維安對象到達現場之前當地的大概的情資狀況都能夠掌握得相當不錯的主要原因因為赴外訪問最重要的就是跟國際合作友方的相關對口部門建立起互信拿來加強合作,應足各種可能的狀況這確實是外訪期間最重要的工作"},{"start":3603.229,"end":3603.249,"text":"陳詠勳委員"},{"start":3633.728,"end":3633.908,"text":"林主任"},{"start":3647.204,"end":3670.723,"text":"我們大家看到當年馬祖海嵐斷纜的時候中華電信所承受的壓力就是說部分代收加值手機支付隨時對取得貨件關心卡商品支付兌換券全部都中斷那麼在那個階段前後拖了兩個多月那有關於當地的居民的手機也沒辦法通了"},{"start":3671.323,"end":3671.383,"text":"下一頁"},{"start":3699.424,"end":3716.529,"text":"我們可以看到國家安全戰略跟國防民生是合一的目標是提升我們的堅韌能力我們的方法是凝聚我們的決心跟意志手段是鞏固持續防護的能力"},{"start":3717.779,"end":3745.88,"text":"那基礎設施我們根據依據範圍韌性啊我們當然行政院有國家關鍵基礎安全設施防護計劃的指導綱要這是一個綱要那範疇剛才您包括了包括能源水資源通訊傳播交通銀行金融緊急醫療救助中央政府地方政府機關還有高科技園區它的韌性就是因為現在我們面對了這個一個是天然災害第二個是"},{"start":3747.315,"end":3750.638,"text":"我們今天談的比較偏重在網路跟通訊提升這個通訊網路的堅韌程度"},{"start":3772.915,"end":3800.035,"text":"那麼它的本質是因為它是容易影響群體行為所以很容易成為敵方攻略的主要的目標因為網路通訊它的前提是非常容易遭受到破壞短時間難以恢復正常的工作那我們希望的目標是確實確保我們的通訊傳播不要斷網那也就是說我們在方法上要有彈性化"},{"start":3800.936,"end":3827.065,"text":"那手段分通訊設施跟載體的流量我們希望用網格化的網路不是線型的就是要交錯型的矩陣型的那在這裡面國防部跟內政部用的是不同我們國防部是有機動性載車的中繼台那麼內政部通常是Wi-Fi的高塔固定包括警消用的是同樣所以我們在提醒政府要統籌規劃精準投資"},{"start":3830.092,"end":3850.807,"text":"國防跟內政它的用法不同但是分享的單位都會匯集到國安局跟行政院這個地方的治安所以你要注意到就是說兩種都要有一個是機動性的第二個是固定的通信的中繼載台的轉播站那我們下面就會產生要分級分類"},{"start":3852.591,"end":3874.098,"text":"那麼級別規劃是通聯最小網路頻寬這個是要跟NCC要密切協調等級越高越不能這個斷訊通聯等級越高的他要專屬的通訊網路而且要有多重的備援設計所以在這個過程中間包括國安局包括行政院國土辦"},{"start":3874.838,"end":3875.318,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3903.698,"end":3930.337,"text":"NCC是講我們跟國外簽或者是我們的科技委員會他是說國內未來120枚可以購用竹科的專家是說要400顆購用這些都有討論空間但是我們要建立一個完整的運用框架大家在把責任分攤以及它的最小需求量的時候攤出來的時候再來看我的成本能不能負擔下一頁"},{"start":3931.611,"end":3956.562,"text":"各位這個看到就是我們的海纜你看低軌衛星那麼海纜的這個通信系統它是這個傳輸量是最大的它是83這個TBPS那麼衛星通信、微波通信那衛星通信、微波通信它的量又不一樣所以衛星是最窄的再下一個那我們現在有14條海纜那麼有4個接觸點"},{"start":3964.254,"end":3978.196,"text":"這個東西照剛才在國土辦講的就是說我們跟中華電信都有備案所以14條海欄的修護應急我們的這個中華電信都跟外國的維修公司簽約但是"},{"start":3979.229,"end":3993.729,"text":"如果不是一條段或是兩條段產生了一種意外事件當然有替代方案但是替代方案的這個頻寬跟傳輸速度能不能解決這個應急時候的需求跟暫時是另外一段時間"},{"start":3994.85,"end":4012.868,"text":"所以我們希望在這個框架下第一個我們要建立一個就是說在國土辦有一個共同圖像把你的關鍵基礎設施不同的領域你都標註出來比方我們的超高壓345千伏的配電所它的位置"},{"start":4014.029,"end":4036.501,"text":"剛才講我們已經有了跟民間簽約或保全簽約甚至未來的寶二總隊都能夠維護但是它的精準位置分配點我們希望能夠你有一個一套軟體能夠把不同的比方講這個所有這個能源輸送下卸的港口傳輸管線能夠顯示高壓電塔28000座高壓電塔的位置能顯示"},{"start":4039.002,"end":4039.302,"text":"海上交通線"},{"start":4062.915,"end":4085.862,"text":"海上交通線是能源進出的必要管道它跟海欄的重要性是相同的所以我們看下面的國家通信委員會NCC表示在立法院三讀通過電信管理法修正條文從過去單一點的保護擴大到納入保護現在海點我們海欄14個海欄"},{"start":4087.762,"end":4116.257,"text":"有14條海岸有4個登陸點這包括基防、纜線、內陸、間接站、鏈路設備跟國際通信交換機這個就是剛剛講的這個CEI要有double redundancy那要短時間能夠有替代方案比方講我們跟這個NCC跟OneWeb簽的約是說我們境內有700個點境外16個點這700個點再用微波再跟local的地方大家end user可以用"},{"start":4116.997,"end":4135.596,"text":"可是我們要了解NCC簽約跟英國公司簽約條約的段數有沒有在暫時不可抗力因素它的服務範疇受到影響這個我們希望能夠掌握而不是NCC說我簽的約這個分給你國軍分給你政府分給你多少單位"},{"start":4136.237,"end":4136.437,"text":"主席"},{"start":4151.715,"end":4167.218,"text":"謝謝陳委員的指教陳委員真的對於我們相關的韌性的防護非常的了解那就整個的共同圖像的部分我們也非常認同委員剛剛所提的那我們就以通訊韌性為例目前我們的做法也是由海"},{"start":4167.839,"end":4187.734,"text":"路、空這三個的共同圖像來組合而成那海的部分剛有提到在海欄海欄除了現行的海欄之外我們當然還會有持續的一些相關的措施來進行強化那在路上的部分有相關的民營的通訊業者如何在災難的時候這個基地台互用"},{"start":4188.414,"end":4188.514,"text":"以上,謝謝委員"},{"start":4211.426,"end":4224.458,"text":"謝謝我們也希望在這個就所謂的Ci關鍵基礎下它的redundancy並不是只double配置甚至要多層然後也有替代方案那個我們希望大家下來後共同努力謝謝謝謝陳委員接下來請徐巧欣委員上台質詢"},{"start":4246.212,"end":4249.015,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請蔡局長請蔡局長好,謝謝主席,學友們早"},{"start":4258.656,"end":4284.961,"text":"這個局長我想請問一下在我們國安局的業務裡面那要收集很多相關的情報那有沒有關於包含是我們重要的比如說總統、副總統、總統當選人準副總統當選人相關的情資都應該要有一併的掌握並且對一些虛假的消息要進行一定程度的快速處理"},{"start":4286.213,"end":4293.666,"text":"對,對於各種的錯假訊息在網路上社群媒體的傳播那國安局確實都有在做必要的助手"},{"start":4294.209,"end":4315.186,"text":"好那這邊要跟您講一下在今年一月初開始呢在PTT在Mobile01在Dcard上面呢都有一篇文章他雖然沒有指名道姓可是他在上面虛構的很多東西都符合蕭准副總統"},{"start":4317.388,"end":4340.203,"text":"這個事情當時也沒有媒體做了報導但文章貼了好幾個月也沒有被撤銷也沒有被相關的機關認定為假消息處理對於國安局來說政府元首的輿論或者當時他是如果說過去駐美代表等等當時一月已經是準副總統了"},{"start":4341.664,"end":4361.61,"text":"那似乎這也是國家安全的一環我們把圖放大看之後你可以看到前一張比方說你看影射蕭美琴有神秘男友嗎美女副總統背後的男孩是誰然後另外一篇美女副總統與阿美族男孩的愛情故事"},{"start":4362.17,"end":4391.229,"text":"他當然用了一些影射的手法比方說呢他故事裡面提到兩個人他把所謂的我現在講的都不是真實的請您諒解我只在解釋說他是怎麼樣去描述這個過程他就把呢要影射蕭美琴副總統的說成喵HK然後呢跟另外一位叫做俊彥或者是他會稱呼他為米漾阿道可能是一位原住民朋友"},{"start":4391.989,"end":4411.063,"text":"那他上面的名稱寫到文章裡面關於所謂的喵HK等等的當你比對蕭美琴他準副總統的包含他的生平年月是比對的起來的所以他就很明顯的是在影射我們的蕭副總統那這個資料上很難讓人不去聯想他想要可能惡意的去操作這樣子的一個部分"},{"start":4421.05,"end":4434.038,"text":"那另外一個男生也就是這個男主角民國69年阿美族的男孩在高雄出生名字叫做俊彥原住民的名字叫做米央在東華大學念書的時候剛好認識了這個喵HK那當時PTT的網友就在網路搜尋也可以查到這個人"},{"start":4443.324,"end":4450.309,"text":"這個人剛好就是花蓮肖美琴之友會的理事看到這邊圈起來的理事在這裡有出現這個名字然後也有所謂的這邊都有介紹美女副總統和阿美族男孩的愛情故事"},{"start":4461.636,"end":4471.824,"text":"然後也有所謂的大合照我們看一下合照這一位是我們蕭美琴準副總統後面我們把大家的資料都碼掉了就是被寫出來的這一位那這個文章裡面比較麻煩的地方如果他只是就是寫一寫就像小說一樣的情節那我今天不會跟局長來討論"},{"start":4484.955,"end":4511.762,"text":"但重點在於這篇文章裡面提及他們的個人背景相識過程同居一起工作而且他還寫道這位男士見過我們的蔡總統還跟著所謂的蕭美琴我們都不證實這個事情因為我也沒有辦法查證他有可能是假消息或是認知作戰一起去美國工作你看我標起來的地方見過總統"},{"start":4513.422,"end":4519.104,"text":"甚至最重要的部分在下面這裡他寫什麼這個男性一方面利用台灣的稅金幫喵HK也就是aka蕭美琴接觸在美國的軍火商、智庫和政要成功推動了培洛西、龐佩歐來台一方面替蕭美琴這個暗示蕭美琴收錢和美國人達成協議"},{"start":4543.551,"end":4557.596,"text":"買來豬買武器特別是幫助台積電赴美建廠這些都給他們帶來的巨大財富、豪車別墅、香檳美酒進入了米央的生活"},{"start":4558.716,"end":4576.618,"text":"雖然這個文章也一直說是虛構故事但是他又鉅細靡遺的甚至提到還有副總統財產申報等等的事件這個文章上面的問題又涉及到臺美外交的問題也涉及到了我們準副總統的相關資訊"},{"start":4578.2,"end":4601.579,"text":"而這個內容呢從今年的1月到現在沒有被處理在網路上面我昨天還去搜尋都還看得到反而是有的社群賬號不見了那蕭美琴過去準總統準副總統她是駐美大使我不曉得國安局對於這樣子的內容是否有掌握"},{"start":4602.159,"end":4621.131,"text":"那要怎麼樣核實或是處理這種系統性的文章呢尤其當權者身旁的人員如果真的有涉及這樣子重大的爭議難道不應該核實嗎請問局長對於今天我所陳述的這個部分你們會有什麼樣的具體作為"},{"start":4622.432,"end":4622.852,"text":"那請問這一篇有掌握嗎?"},{"start":4638.239,"end":4638.499,"text":"這個選擇單位是哪裡?"},{"start":4658.846,"end":4685.924,"text":"我舉個例子,我們在一個禮拜可能可以篩略到有兩三萬則的錯假訊息那我們會大概會分析一下它的真實性的初步的狀況那我們會通報到國安會每一個禮拜應該都有五六千則另外也會通報到行政院由全則單位來經過我們的通報之後針對各種的可能錯假訊息來做進一步的判定到底有沒有必要再做進一步的處理或回應依委員剛剛所提到這一則我們有通報"},{"start":4686.644,"end":4707.325,"text":"你們通報之後的決定是什麼?不用處理?我們情報機關不會去涉入到行政部門後續的一個處理的狀況。你們通報之後,你們通報之後,這個事情是通報到行政院的哪一個單位?對,我們有通報到國安會跟行政院,都有通報。行政院院本部嗎?還是行政院的轄下的哪一個單位?"},{"start":4711.878,"end":4715.2,"text":"我仍然認為像這樣子的訊息是需要處理甚至下架的"},{"start":4738.715,"end":4753.349,"text":"因為它裡面已經暗示了就是說我國的副總統的影射的男朋友他有去接觸在美國的軍火商這對我國的聲譽還有民眾看到了之後會產生巨大的影響"},{"start":4754.17,"end":4760.896,"text":"那既然你們有掌握也通報了國安會我實在不明白為什麼這麼嚴重的一個相關的訊息在網路上面不斷的被轉傳不斷的被看到不斷的讓民眾接受到錯誤的訊息甚至可能對我們的蕭美琴的副總統那產生了錯誤的想法"},{"start":4778.492,"end":4806.931,"text":"這個對我們的國家也是一點好處都沒有所以我想要請問局長最後的是當我今天把這樣子的訊息提出來之後你們會不會再度通報或者是說建議國安會必須針對這樣子的文章再進行一次處置呢對我們謝謝委員的提醒那我們也會依照國安局的權責再來做相關的一個通報跟確認好那如果有下架的話請再通知我好嗎謝謝委員"},{"start":4812.054,"end":4813.894,"text":"主席,我們有請蔡局長。"},{"start":4840.967,"end":4867.129,"text":"好 謝謝主席 聯委人長早安 我們來討論一個就是有關於國家安全的部分我想這個是局長跟您的同仁每天都要面對的那麼就是我們知道其實接觸了機敏的資料的話那麼對於這些接觸機敏資料的人員來講的話那麼一定如果到所謂中國的話都有它的限制那這個以國防部的話是在現役或退職人員當中只要進入所謂的大陸地區的話"},{"start":4868.47,"end":4884.101,"text":"那麼會有一個機密的限制那麼這個機密的如果是絕對機密者呢是5年那麼如果是即機密是4年機密為3年這樣的一個年限的限制喔我想請問一下局長包括這個法案的制定的過程他的用意是在哪裡"},{"start":4885.169,"end":4910.349,"text":"對我想主要當時在聯合人民關係條例會去觸及到這樣的一個法律條文那當然是基於對於國家基民資訊的保護所以當時的主要的對象是針對我們行政部門的各個官員也包括到地方政府的主要的首長那在賦錄之前可能要經過相關的一個聯審的機制才能夠確定到賦錄期間會不會把基民的資訊有外洩的可能性"},{"start":4910.589,"end":4939.167,"text":"好,所以說這個所謂的絕對機密或即機密或是機密這個是由當時他們所曾經參與的會議或是可以接觸的文件來做限制嗎?對,因為就國家的機密等級本來就是分為有關委員所提到的這幾類的機密那現在就是依照機密的等級的這種機敏的程度來針對進入對岸的一個管制的期間來做一個相關期程的一個安排"},{"start":4939.767,"end":4955.008,"text":"本席會問這個是因為我們知道最近這個新的國會開議之後那麼許多的這些委員們尤其在司法法治委員會最熱烈討論的就是有關於國會改革那麼在國會改革的過程當中外界都把這個焦點放在這個所謂藐視官員"},{"start":4956.91,"end":4974.561,"text":"呃,表示,呃,表示國會,官員表示國會這個部分要關三年,但是事實上我自己個人一直認為啦齁,國會改革的面向有很多,不只是我們現在在質詢台上我對你的質詢,包括什麼,還包括了就是立法委員自己本身如何讓自己"},{"start":4974.981,"end":4997.467,"text":"的國會運作自己的質詢能夠變得更好其實我剛剛一直在詢問你的是有關於絕對機密及機密或者是機密到底要如何界定因為就以我們國防外交委員會來講好了以我們自己現在所在的這個會期到現在我們一共有一次的機密考察兩次的機密會議一個是到南部去看我們的潛艦相關的這個現場的狀況再來就是包括局長你也來過報告一次國防部也來報告一次"},{"start":5004.409,"end":5006.371,"text":"行政部門對於絕對機密及機密跟機密我們有一個分類的標準"},{"start":5019.606,"end":5043.885,"text":"主要財閣權還是在部會首長部長級的官員來做相關的財閣包括我本人那另外在委員會的部分我想這部分應該要依照貴院貴委員會有關於機密分類的一個有沒有一個內部的一個規範那我們會所以這變成是變成我們的內規就對了對我們來尊重貴院的一個規範但是可以確定的是它絕對是機密吧是因為"},{"start":5045.066,"end":5049.295,"text":"我想在場的大家包括我在內都知道這樣的機密會議"},{"start":5050.993,"end":5074.382,"text":"除了人員要有嚴格的管控甚至於只有立委可以進來立委的手機、行動裝置都得要放到外面然後我們看的每一份資料上面都有編列編號甚至於寫上每一個委員的大名你在領取的時候要簽名你在交回的時候要簽名而且要簽下保密協定就算它不是極機密超級機密也是機密那如果是這樣的話"},{"start":5076.182,"end":5092.869,"text":"我認為刮別人的鬍子要把自己的鬍子刮乾淨我們今天在立法院我們可以定藐視國會最要官員關三年那麼如果要講到國會改革的時候我自己認為以身作則立法委員接觸了機密但是如果馬上到中國去"},{"start":5093.749,"end":5116.648,"text":"然後接觸到的是中國相關的人士那麼在這樣的言談之間的時候真的必須要自己先做好自己的這個部分因為這些機密也有很有可能是官員退休降臨或是現職降臨或是行政官員剛剛你也講到包括連地方首長那會不會立法委員反而成為洩密的漏洞呢?"},{"start":5118.204,"end":5143.062,"text":"我想尊重委員的一些意見像我剛剛有跟委員說明到的就我們國安的角度來講我們會認為對於國家重要機密的保護是非常重要的那在過去幾年我們的法規規範裡面對於行政部門已經做了相關的一個蠻嚴格的規範那假如立法部門也能夠有相關的討論或有一些相關的規範或自律的機制的話那我想需要國安局來提供相關意見我們都非常的樂意"},{"start":5143.302,"end":5168.797,"text":"好,所以,那我想就叫國安局的意見就是,包括現場沈博洋委員,還有我,中央運行委員,蘇巧慧委員跟王定宇,我們曾經提出有關於兩岸人民關係條例的修正,就是希望民意代表跟其他從事我國相關利益,然後曾到立法院來參加機密會議者,如果進入大陸地區必須要經過申請,但是很可惜的是這樣的法案,連討論都沒有辦法討論,在程序委員會就直接被封殺了。"},{"start":5170.615,"end":5176.058,"text":"我只就教您的專業您不用擔心因為藐視國會罪還沒有通過就算是您現在下來這個法律通常不溯及既往您可以回答我的問題就專業來說這樣的法案是不是把我剛剛所講的參與過機密會議但是直接沒有所謂的任何的時間第一時間喔三月份"},{"start":5192.823,"end":5214.783,"text":"4月份的機密會議結束馬上隔一週就到中國去這是不是一個漏洞那這樣的漏洞是不是應該把它補強起來對,我們剛剛提到的一些提案的內容的精神我們大概可以理解主要的關切重點在哪裡那這部分我剛剛也做了一些說明那但是對於一些提案過程當中在立法院的討論"},{"start":5215.384,"end":5217.265,"text":"我們尊重委員在立法院裡面的討論畢竟還是在你們院內做必要的討論"},{"start":5232.291,"end":5245.826,"text":"國外的話確實在過去這幾年對於這種國家安全的法制反間諜、反滲透的法制確實非常積極的賴立法我的粗淺的理解沒有記錯的話過去這兩三年應該有美國、英國、法國、荷蘭、日本"},{"start":5247.447,"end":5263.312,"text":"韓國、澳洲、印度11個國家再加上歐盟都通過相關的立法規範那主要重點都是把它著重在怎麼樣來界定間諜的行為怎麼樣來加重相關的罰則所以這已經變成是國際社會在這個部分關切的一個重點也是一個主要的立法的趨勢"},{"start":5264.632,"end":5287.819,"text":"所以說對我來講我認為像這樣的法案其實是為了讓國家更好而且我也希望立法委員是可以做一個表率不要永遠就是一隻手指頭指著別人只看到那一隻手指頭我自己認為我們自己可以做到好的可以讓國家更好的國會改革應該是從我們自己改革開始而不是一打招砍向別人那麼我覺得這個根本就是華天下之大雞接下來我要請主席幫我邀請的是我們的國土辦的林主任"},{"start":5294.622,"end":5301.48,"text":"請林主任委員長"},{"start":5302.826,"end":5321.432,"text":"林主任有關於這個國家的這個安全的部分關鍵基礎設施您在報告也特別提到了其實媒體也是其中的一環那麼因為時間有限我就先總結的來說就是在整體來講媒體是我們非常重要的一個傳播工具那麼包括中央社包括民視甚至於聯合報都曾經遭受到強烈的攻擊不論是要駭入竊取資料"},{"start":5328.194,"end":5348.813,"text":"又或者是呢造成這個相關的瀏覽的數量暴增變成是癱瘓喔那麼甚至於也曾經出現過不明的新聞的標題喔那像這樣的一個所謂媒體遭受攻擊的過程當中紅色資訊戰他今天即一旦可以駭入之後他有可能是成為"},{"start":5351.174,"end":5368.16,"text":"發錯假訊息的一個管道那我們知道現在在台灣每一個人幾乎都是人手一級甚至於兩級甚至於行動裝置都非常多那麼在這個部分我們有沒有考慮到或者是協助媒體在強化他的資訊安全"},{"start":5369.646,"end":5385.201,"text":"是,謝謝委員那個因為在媒體也是我們部分重要的媒體設施也是我們關鍵基礎設施的一環那所以相關的這些媒體設施也都是我們資通安全管理法所規範的對象因此在相關的人員、設備、技術"},{"start":5388.044,"end":5414.807,"text":"集合的規定都有相關的一些規定那包含要內機也要外機外機就是由這個治安署甚至是國土辦也會會同一起去做一些了解跟協助那當然這是事前的防範那如果事中遇到了一些相關的一些應變的處置作為的時候政府也有一些相關的資源會來幫忙做一些協助例如遇到DDOS的攻擊當然我們就要幫他清洗流量做短做一些疏導"},{"start":5415.828,"end":5416.509,"text":"接下來請沈博洋委員上台諮詢"},{"start":5449.411,"end":5450.892,"text":"我今天最主要是想要問幾個小地方但我先從一個小案例問起"},{"start":5487.824,"end":5507.058,"text":"我先從這個鐵路的部分開始問起就是說我們的高鐵的這個鐵道系統前陣子受到這一個受到破壞這不是敵人我只是說可能而已那它其實呢因為那一個供電的纜線跟訊號的那個纜線看起來非常的相像那當時的人員是說他以為是這個"},{"start":5507.939,"end":5533.929,"text":"他們的研判以為是說可以偷的東西結果發現是這個但因為在目前的架構之下我們這一個高鐵本身的這個很多的電線這個不是那個電線那一個光纖它其實也有給很多人使用所以本身那也算是一個關鍵基礎設施那我想問一下說這件事情的後續就是說我們對於像這種事情因為畢竟它很簡單的被破壞到了那這件事情的後續就是我們要怎麼去防範不知道後來有沒有什麼這個"},{"start":5535.342,"end":5557.367,"text":"就樣態我先做說明再請國土辦計劃作為的部分再做一些補充就威脅樣態來講我們剛剛在書面報告也跟委員們有稍微提到這個部分人為威脅的部分他可能因為刻意的蓄意的破壞或是我們局的案例也曾經有類似剪斷台鐵的電纜的一個相關的案例影響到正常的一個運輸系統的一個運作"},{"start":5559.247,"end":5582.464,"text":"對於我們的整體的交通網絡會造成蠻大的一個衝擊那我們會建議說在應應這樣的樣態的過程當中可能我們的相關的交通運輸系統可能要針對不同的這種威脅的來源要檢視一下鐵路網路有沒有哪些的脆弱點那要加強平時的巡檢那做必要的演練來提升相關的韌性那計畫作為部分我們再請國土辦來做補充謝謝"},{"start":5584.225,"end":5600.875,"text":"這個案子我們有去了解那已經有處理的一個進展了那目前就整個台鐵的這個光纖的網路的配置它其實光纖只要剪斷因為它是迴路型的就知道哪裡破壞所以一定要維持行車的安全"},{"start":5601.335,"end":5620.662,"text":"如果有相關的這樣的事情會馬上處理。第二個就是要怎麼提升韌性,讓它快速的復原。所以相關的就近的一些設備的布置趕快搶修復原這個動作都有做一些準備。那另外我們也已經攀點過全國這種類似的案例的所在點,要針對點的部分馬上做加強。"},{"start":5622.182,"end":5648.498,"text":"那我為什麼提這一點有幾個因素第一個它是一個實體的破壞實體的破壞其實跟駭客的這個防護比起來那個方法會比較不一樣這是第一個那第二個就是因為520其實也快到了那當然會有比較大的運輸量會在這個519或520發生那對我們來講在前陣子上一次的520他們最主要就是攻擊中油那在這幾個月照理說他們能夠攻擊假設今天中國想要去做干預他能夠攻擊的關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":5653.057,"end":5673.984,"text":"他的能夠攻擊的關鍵基礎設施我覺得蠻重要的當然還包含我們的電網那之前我在看這些業者相關的一些內部資料就發現在這幾個月他們攻擊電網的這個機率變高了我覺得這是一個警訊那第二個警訊就是說呢通常中國他去攻擊任何的東西他一定要搭配假消息的攻擊那在過去兩個月呢"},{"start":5674.804,"end":5699.098,"text":"跟電有關的假消息變得非常多來自於中國那我覺得這是很特別的一件事情是因為以前會講電相關的假消息比較多都是國民黨啦很少是中國中國今天會加入我認為是一件很詭異的事情所以這方面的防護我覺得可能要特別注意那接下來我想講的就是現在因為真的要去破壞這種關鍵基礎設施除了實體之外另外還有一個是駭客攻擊然後另外還有一個就是間諜"},{"start":5700.218,"end":5727.113,"text":"那我想先講一下駭客攻擊的部分就是這個是在2023、5月所以大概已經快一年以前了就是那一個福特颱風這件事情那當時呢他當然最主要是在攻擊美國的關鍵基礎設施從中國的攻擊那他不是在攻擊台灣但是我們在看一些相關報導的時候因為他有去碰關島啦那去碰關島之後呢結果呢有媒體分析認為說他們在做這個攻擊其實最主要的目標可能是台灣"},{"start":5728.213,"end":5746.453,"text":"這個是大概一年前發生的,那跟我們剛剛前面講的,目前我們看到一些情資的研判,或許有一些重疊的地方。那我這邊要問的是,因為我今天有看到這一個兩個單位的一個夜報,然後裡面有提到怎麼做防護啊,怎麼做預防等等之類的。所以我這邊稍微整理了一下就是,當時這個我先暫時跳過,因為這個剛剛這個我們的曾鴻康委員有提過這個電纜的問題。"},{"start":5750.437,"end":5768.53,"text":"所以說關島當時做了這樣的一個回應第一個是他們的國民警衛對他們的那個Guard舉辦了一個大概100人的一個這個討論那他參與的人呢因為他是他也是強調類似有像我們全民防衛那種hall of government那種整體這個的回應那參與的人包含他們的國土安全局技術辦公室還有FBI"},{"start":5770.531,"end":5792.876,"text":"還有聯邦的緊急事務管理署、印太司令部、網路司令部等等之類的也就是說他們參與的人員很廣為了應對這件對於關鍵基礎設施的一個攻擊然後接下來呢他去做了一個best practice就是說他們直接去分析說那他們現在的優勢是什麼他們的劣勢是什麼如果下一次他們還要做攻擊的話要做什麼樣的預判然後制定了章程"},{"start":5793.656,"end":5814.434,"text":"因為應對台灣現在來做的這個應處的話目前我們有看到第一個就是我們有匯報但是我們匯報能夠涵蓋的成績跟這一個有沒有落差這是第一個然後第二個就是相關的這個章程就是我看這個我記得是國土辦這邊有提到就是有相關的規範跟章程大概有一個類似SOP的東西那這一個東西跟這一個所謂的章程"},{"start":5816.516,"end":5835.344,"text":"他能不能夠有這個best practice會不會譬如說每幾個月相關的單位他能夠來做練習練習的時候呢他甚至有這種紅藍的對抗然後對抗之後呢今天又分析出來說發現我們的弱勢在哪裡這個機制有沒有在進行就是我們現在業報裡面講的跟現在我們看到關島在做的它有沒有落差還是非常類似"},{"start":5836.064,"end":5864.404,"text":"我先就那個個案的部分做個補充然後就中共的颱風系列的駭客團體我們有長期的在關注那這些不同的颱風系列駭客團體到底他的攻擊手法樣態是什麼以及他們的攻擊的目標聚焦在哪些的特定目標那我們都有做一些相關的分析那同時也跟國外的一些相關的機關來分享我們在情資上所得到的一個訊息來做一個比對那我覺得在進行這樣的一個"},{"start":5864.744,"end":5869.827,"text":"這沒有辦法單靠台灣自己的力量來針對這些中共的駭客團體的全球性的攻擊來做因應那交換資訊跟經驗非常的重要"},{"start":5880.052,"end":5903.129,"text":"至於我們應備的一個相關的體制來講有所謂的政策匯報層級那也有所謂的指導綱要的一個部分那針對這種可能的威脅的樣態各部會也會來加強做一些溝通跟協作然後也透過必要的一個演練來強化我們的韌性那大概整體的架構是用這種方式在運作"},{"start":5904.17,"end":5932.995,"text":"那因為我為什麼問這個問題就是因為當然這可能有點事實機密就是說我們現在對於這個中國駭客的分類比如說他們前期之前在做的可能像中油的這一次可能APT41那就像剛剛局長提到的我們今天跟美方或者說跟其他的這些國家在分享情報的時候我們當然可以先去分類去預判說這次是APT40還是APT10、APT41可以做一些分類那但是我剛剛想前面講的就是說當我們做完分類之後有沒有相關的一些演練"},{"start":5933.735,"end":5954.782,"text":"因為就等於說要有一個對抗也就是說我們要怎麼去分析就是說我們現在的優勢劣勢這個部分那我們多久來做一次那這個部分如果說這個不宜在這邊講的話那我們就私底下到時候如果要到辦公室討論的話這個沒有什麼問題但是就是建議這個部分可能要更常態性的而且可能要廣大更多的組織進來這樣子"},{"start":5956.542,"end":5981.417,"text":"很簡單說明一下我們每年都有針對這些不同的樣態來做演練那另外國安局除了我們本身本局以外也會整合我們相關的國安單位我沒有記錯的話我們今年會私訊的課程可能就有八十幾種不同的課程那私訊完之後會有四千多人次的國內國安團隊的治安人員會參與相關的訓練所以這確實是我們相關的工作重點謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":5981.977,"end":6007.596,"text":"那相關的一些民間的一些企業呢我覺得當然也是可以納入因為畢竟現在對中國駭客的一個分類標準每個人分類標準也不太一樣apt40 41是其中一套嘛然後也有很多套了所以這個部分大家要怎麼think我覺得當然是蠻重要的我們發生過apt31跟apt41我們跟國外的友盟在討論過程當中發現了我們在界定上他們行為樣態好像有不同的見解那也是透過不斷的加油來釐清實際的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":6009.317,"end":6031.907,"text":"最後一個因為時間因素我就來不及講我稍微講一下就好了就最後就間諜因為畢竟以間諜來講現在間諜直接去接觸關鍵基礎設施已經屢見不鮮了那其實在國外都有發生那對於我們這些高風險人物的控管剛剛楚英委員其實有提到就是說其實像立法委員會接觸到非常多的機密那當然我這邊幫忙update一下就是因為昨天在程序委員會一樣的案子結果過了"},{"start":6033.267,"end":6033.868,"text":"應該的,有需要我們來提供專業意見,我們來提供"},{"start":6062.495,"end":6063.376,"text":"馬文君主席"},{"start":6083.885,"end":6109.985,"text":"局長早,局長剛剛您提到現在在近幾年其實很多國家包括美國英國法國德國等等其他很多國家現階段對於很多的間諜的行為其實都可能要如何界定然後都有比較明確的規範甚至罰則也加重那像這樣子的間諜行為比如說像我們在國內發生的因為"},{"start":6113.368,"end":6117.571,"text":"最近大家很喜歡講到潛艦潛艦從開始到現在一直風波不斷然後他到底洩密洩了什麼密洩給誰誰洩的密這個到現在都還說不清楚可是我們現在要先釐清的我們很贊成應該要把它查查清楚在潛艦開始設計建造一直到現在下水甚至現在要做博港測試未來的海事等等"},{"start":6143.491,"end":6167.99,"text":"這個過程當中很多的媒體都有第一手的資料如果這是極機密的一個案子照理說他都不可以洩漏到底是誰洩漏的這個應該要首先查查清楚第二個如果在這個過程當中有一些不該講而講甚至不應該知道的人都可以上電視節目可以上媒體可以在自己的直播、臉書上面"},{"start":6173.794,"end":6190.868,"text":"傳達了甚至洩漏了非常多的潛艦的機密資料這個到底要不要查身為國安單位就這個部分等一下我們請局長稍微說明一下因為到底洩什麼密這個很清楚如果按照這樣的邏輯今天"},{"start":6192.009,"end":6196.012,"text":"會從事間諜活動不是只針對中國對其他的國家都一樣你只要出賣國家的利益出賣國家的一些情報資料機密的資料都叫泄密你泄給美國也是泄給歐洲國家也是甚至泄給立陶宛捷克都是或者甚至泄給東南亞國家不只中國這個部分我們贊成可以嚴格的去執行甚至立法可是不要自我閹割"},{"start":6221.616,"end":6238.549,"text":"我再舉個例子來說好了越南跟泰國泰國是全世界第一個情報中心這個國安局長應該知道吧那泰國可不可以去你在泰國不會接觸到其他的中國間諜嗎"},{"start":6241.445,"end":6258.161,"text":"因為一直提這樣子的案子讓人家覺得你是自己去不了然後也不讓別人去你今天如果會發生間諜的行為都可以查而且應該要往前追溯這一種因為你的行為是之前發生的在我們之前有很多的"},{"start":6258.721,"end":6282.296,"text":"身為外交國防委員會都參與非常多次機敏的會議資料有看過的甚至在軍購或者其他的採購上面其實都有接觸到機密資料的這些人甚至跟中國女子過從甚密這些人有一些他們在中國其實是有成立公司的"},{"start":6283.471,"end":6289.1,"text":"這些成員裡面也有人他的直系親屬是在中國擔任重要的包括師級的這樣子的職業"},{"start":6294.687,"end":6318.528,"text":"他們不該被懷疑嗎?你今天如果身為立法委員都不知道自己應該有的分寸老是喜歡用這樣子泄密然後意識形態的一個做法提案可以啊以後都不要出國只要你接觸過這樣機敏資料因為泰國、越南你也不可以去越南現在是什麼樣的地方?泰國是全球情報中心"},{"start":6319.659,"end":6335.888,"text":"所有的很多的機敏資料都從那裡傳達出去的我們也不要做國會外交啊你哪裡都不應該去今天是你自己身份還有你自己的行為自己要去把它拿捏犯法就辦包括過去的一併來查本席贊成很多你如果重要的"},{"start":6343.12,"end":6359.966,"text":"直系親屬或者你的很重要的親屬在對岸做生意請他都撤資請他都不可以參與請他通通要可能要自親這個我們同意可以立這樣的法甚至都不要出國"},{"start":6361.451,"end":6389.043,"text":"只要是立法委員參與過機密會議的都不要出國另外還有一個所謂的機密會議是我們立法院排的你有時候來報的時候甚至只是只有業務上的機密裡面根本也沒有什麼機密資料我們只是希望可以保全比較重要的一個會議內容所以才排機密會議啊那麼以後都不要排我們都排公開就好了啊那你們自己去拿捏你到底要不要報可以怎麼報"},{"start":6390.123,"end":6393.978,"text":"那你私下去委員那裡,私下去辦公室報的算不算?"},{"start":6396.673,"end":6402.554,"text":"哪一些法案提案一直在這裡不斷不斷的繞然後一直在說洩密然後又不查你把它查清楚啊從過去到現在洩潛見機密最多的是誰為什麼所有的媒體都可以把它看得出來而且是跟我們的內容是一致的哦甚至都是超前還更完整那些該不該查你如果可以查得出來才來提這樣子的案子"},{"start":6422.29,"end":6447.498,"text":"立法委員自我閹割不斷提議事形態的案子可以一直討論國安局長今天我們現在在這裡討論的就這個部分我們認同加重因為現在台海局勢緊張兩岸關係地緣政治的關係我們都必須要更慎重更謹慎以視同仁這個部分局長怎麼看"},{"start":6447.958,"end":6473.948,"text":"好,謝謝委員的關切。就剛剛委員所提到的內容重點我大概做幾點補充。第一個,我們的國家確實是有面臨到外力嚴重滲透威脅的一個處境。那面對這樣的處境,我們確實需要一個比較完備的法律的體制,讓相關單位可以有妥善的法律工具來應處各種的威脅,這大概是第一點。那第二點,剛剛也跟其他委員有報告過,國際社會,特別是有門國家,對於這個議題,所謂的國安,"},{"start":6475.469,"end":6475.529,"text":"我再講"},{"start":6491.556,"end":6507.923,"text":"那你間諜的行為是只針對一個國家或者到每一個國家都可能發生甚至在台灣都可能發生你們不是說內外大家都已經在配合嗎你們甚至還有第幾縱隊大家都認為說這在台灣都可能發生的情況之下間諜應該要怎麼界定我們贊成加重處罰"},{"start":6511.605,"end":6538.581,"text":"對 就是在界定的部分我是覺得可以再有更多的討論那另外就是在相關的一個法規或自律的規範那這部分我們會尊重立法院各位委員先進們你們大概在討論之後怎麼樣的一個規範會比較切合到我們國家安全環境的需求那這部分我們尊重那需要我們來提供意見我們會來提供意見那委員涉及到個案的部分因為有些個案它已經涉及到在司法機關處理的過程當中有些根本沒有處理"},{"start":6539.341,"end":6562.231,"text":"我剛剛提到的很多個案包括你的投資包括你過程深密包括你的關係密切還有包括在那裡職業的這些部分從來沒有查過那這些幫我拿進來往前推然後應該查的都查我們沒有不說我台灣的法律照理說應該要不塑集既往可是現在我們發現都往往是塑集既往而且只要想辦就辦年金就是一個"},{"start":6565.069,"end":6590.64,"text":"所以我們希望就很多的法案要提的時候大家可以更審慎的然後大家把看法都提出來尤其是國安單位就這個部分因為你們是負權者的在很多的資訊的掌控或者收集或者應該要怎麼預防你們應該要提出更完整的資訊可以讓大家去看今天所有的國家我們本來今天還要講到基礎設施的這個部分"},{"start":6593.795,"end":6601.583,"text":"我們有很多現在中部最大的一個基礎設施最敏感的是哪裡?局長知道嗎?電力的在哪裡你知道嗎?921也發生過問題啊中寮的超高壓開閉所"},{"start":6613.393,"end":6626.349,"text":"我們現在當我們農業縣都在承擔很多中寮就在我們南投縣所有的高壓電塔布的密密麻麻一年不過補貼人家一千多萬"},{"start":6628.775,"end":6641.488,"text":"那些土地都不能做什麼到處都是高壓電塔不危險嗎你今天這個基礎設施一旦被破壞九二一大地震的時候引發650萬戶停電為什麼因為它的電塔倒塌因為它的線路斷掉"},{"start":6648.035,"end":6665.202,"text":"今天我們承擔這麼多的國家重要的有一些的基礎設施可是當我們農產品賣不出去的時候在我們的土地上種的農產品賣不出去的時候當我們的觀光業沒有人來的時候你現在要漲電價然後又不准這個來那個來哀鴻遍野你怎麼還可以在這裡大聲的說這個不行那個不行那你政府把它做好啊"},{"start":6678.131,"end":6695.779,"text":"所以我們在這裡希望大家是可以持平的今天為了國家的安全今天為了我們所有整體的國家利益那個大家都可以認同可是不是在這裡隨便指控別人在這裡開上一次開的那個機密會議裡面的內容媒體通通報導過了有一個前顧問在很多的地方講的還更多那個怎麼不講那個怎麼不辦"},{"start":6706.414,"end":6722.228,"text":"找自己的立法委員開刀大家都不要出國包括泰國這是本席的意見如果要那以後立法委員只要參加過這樣的基民會議的這樣的過程通通不要出國也不要做國會外交這樣可行嗎?局長您看法我們尊重立法院各位委員對相關問題的討論"},{"start":6727.546,"end":6747.586,"text":"所以我們希望局長也要提出比較具體可行而且是持平的建議因為這樣才可以讓國家更好而且才可以凝聚向心力也可以才讓大家在所有的事情上面用比較客觀的態度大家共同來探討今天如果你指責一件大家都會互相一直指責來指責去"},{"start":6749.528,"end":6761.808,"text":"對所有的事情還有所有的國家政策發展一點注意都沒有這是我們今天特別提出來也請局長就這個部分在後續也可以提出更完整的這些持平的一個建議跟說法"},{"start":6776.067,"end":6796.707,"text":"下面請王定宇委員我今天是說大家拿出來的應該就這樣子好不好好謝謝麻煩蔡局長謝謝蔡局長"},{"start":6805.445,"end":6819.003,"text":"局長早我們今天這個題目其實訂的還蠻精準的三個名詞C.I.關鍵基礎設施第二個新型態威脅第三個因應這三個題目精準但是很大"},{"start":6820.031,"end":6837.09,"text":"那我就拿一些比較集中的部分來請教我們這幾年有沒有做什麼準備美國拜登總統在2021年5月跟7月有簽署一個行政命令要求國土安全部網路安全跟基礎設施安全局CISA針對公部門與"},{"start":6841.977,"end":6850.494,"text":"關鍵基礎設施工業控制系統這是指民間在應對資安攻擊要建立SOP定義跟處理方式"},{"start":6851.584,"end":6876.184,"text":"那我現在要先請教局長在你們定義的關鍵基礎設施是怎麼去定義它對關鍵基礎設施事實上在行政院的我們相關關鍵基礎設施安全防護的指導綱要裡面都有做完整的規定那韌性的定義以及相關後續的安全維護我們是一個正面表現的方式嗎對對都有正面表現的方式因為現在時代進步非常快"},{"start":6876.744,"end":6902.576,"text":"比如說NVIDIA的AI晶片在大概5年前其實是那個圖像晶片並沒有像現在那麼受重視可是過了3、5年團間它就進入到另外一個level或者這個Low Orbit就是那個低軌道的衛星在幾年前這個東西還不見現在因為馬斯克等等所以這個正面表列你們多久更新一次把關鍵基礎設施放在裡面對我們定期都會有開相關的一個正式會表"},{"start":6903.777,"end":6908.789,"text":"每一年都有召開一年一次會不會太那個間隔會不會太長"},{"start":6910.228,"end":6935.576,"text":"對,但每一次在開會的過程當中我們也會針對一些比較新的發展那我們現在有專責單位去收集、定義什麼叫做關鍵基礎設施嗎?這部分行政院的國土辦這邊是負責那國土辦你現在手上有多少人力去做這個事情?報告委員,目前有24位人力但是國土辦主要是做統合啦你其實還要指揮其他單位那剛才講一年討論一次什麼叫做關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":6937.877,"end":6952.031,"text":"幫委員那個政策會報是一年一次但是適時的時候會召開而有相關的業務會報由政委來做你們上次召開是什麼時候上次是在今年的一月多一月多召開對阿副院長有指示有指示要進這個一月多有沒有增設"},{"start":6954.533,"end":6973.46,"text":"目前沒有但是剛委員所提的齁在我們另外有一個叫做關鍵的這個科技技術裡面在相關的其他法令有些規範因為我們這邊講的是關鍵基礎設施齁那基礎設施裡面通常講的是有水我是建議林傑主任是第一個我們現在520新的部會首長會上來"},{"start":6974.841,"end":6989.577,"text":"會有些新的想法是那我們常常太分散尤其講到資安啊講到灰色地帶啊或者叫Hybrid Warfare啊它會分散在很多單位我們在軍方也會看到國安局會看到你們那裡也會看到所以有時候會鬆散掉"},{"start":6992.084,"end":7017.765,"text":"這個東西不能掛一漏萬的那我現在請問就是說既然公司領域都有公司領域都有那美國有公布這個標準作業程序跟定義還有處理方式2021年5月跟7月後來他們就編了錢開始去做這個設施甚至於我印象是拜登總統把半導體列為關鍵基礎設施還弄了一個很大的一個很大筆金額的法案"},{"start":7018.746,"end":7031.599,"text":"我們台灣現在關鍵基礎設施公民營都有嗎有那民營的有哪些可以舉例出來有一些通訊的或者是廣播的通訊基地台嗎還有一些是醫療設施你的通訊是指"},{"start":7038.065,"end":7050.833,"text":"光線網絡啦、出地台啦、交換機啦是指什麼?就是我們講的通常是...抱歉委員因為這個個別的我可能不方便說明但是就是在通訊方面相關的"},{"start":7053.444,"end":7078.658,"text":"比如說台積電很清楚媒體有報告他算嗎?台積電是民間的業者是單純他提供的是一些服務所以他並不是提供給大眾的公共的我們所定義的基礎服務但他是重要的設施他有關鍵的這個科技的技術他算是戰略設施戰略的設施那公眾場合的電子布告板算不算?這就是看他的營運的單位那通常是算的"},{"start":7079.258,"end":7091.816,"text":"因為我在大會問過唐鳳大概裴洛西來的那一年我們整個一萬多家的CVS就是便利商店那個布告板啪就被變掉了"},{"start":7093.07,"end":7116.14,"text":"這如果在天災或者面臨威脅的時候他突然間給你丟一個假訊息會形成政府跟民間的訊息被切斷或者錯誤的這個訊息導致混亂那臺灣處處都便利商店所以當那裡出現深層造假或相關假說訊息是很危險的你們把它納入嘛就這個題目本席要問最後一題就是"},{"start":7116.88,"end":7126.067,"text":"那你們有公佈相關的guideline導引以及執行導引的規範包含獎勵或罰則或怎麼樣我告訴你民間應該這麼做因為這屬於關鍵基礎設施屬於這個CI設施那你必須要達到這個達到這個達到那個規範"},{"start":7134.574,"end":7159.269,"text":"那你規範你做不到的我怎麼輔導你你該做卻不做的我該怎麼去要求你我們有沒有這個事情報告委員這個有齁在因為剛剛提的大部分都是在資通安全的這樣的領域的運用啦資通設備的一些運用所以在關鍵基礎設施的這些營運者都是資通安全管理法裡面的特定非公務機關所以他有相關的義務跟事項我希望你們準備一份你們怎麼要求"},{"start":7160.109,"end":7174.465,"text":"怎麼落實要求要求哪些單位該用機密就機密該可以公佈就公佈讓本席或本委員會看到我們才能去追蹤你每一年到底增加什麼東西啊你怎麼要求啊你懂我意思嗎那個主任你先請回回到局長"},{"start":7175.926,"end":7189.902,"text":"520快到了齁那在520前夕包含各國情報單位都顯示說中國對台灣有相當多的做法我認為叫圖謀不軌就是不正當的做法滋擾的做法"},{"start":7190.583,"end":7213.159,"text":"破壞的做法,侮辱性的做法,我們國安局有沒有掌握這樣的情質?有,我想在大選之後,我們看到的中共對台政策的樣態,主要還是合佔了兩手。那透過各種的釋放的利多的訊息,或是透過各種的灰色地帶的脅迫,來凸顯到他在台海議題上的主動權。你們掌握他的情質到目前為止?"},{"start":7214.605,"end":7233.615,"text":"最嚴重的他會怎麼做我們要注意到的是他們現在比較大的重點是放在例行性的聯合戰備警巡他的規模會不會擴大跟過去來比較有沒有一些新的動作他的聯合戰備警巡其實之前開始執行那他如果要有新的脅迫的話可能會在距離"},{"start":7239.774,"end":7263.473,"text":"包括像比較新的就是他們現在的聯合戰備警巡開始在夜間來進行那這已經有三次了那另外在聯合戰備警巡的期間他們也動用到空中的加油機來延長他們的相關的空中的武力滯空的時間那另外也開始動用其他的機艦包括登陸艦跟掃雷艦在聯合戰備警巡的時候來加入運作那這都是今年以來新的樣態"},{"start":7263.953,"end":7289.339,"text":"所以沒有掌握以外我們現在因應的方式是什麼對我們現在大概在因應這樣的樣態當然國防部這邊有他的一個相關的應處的一個既有的一個機制那特別也要注意的除了剛剛講的這些樣態以外灰色地帶的操作包括在今年的2月金門的翻船事件之後他們開始派出一些公務船有在我們的外離島的周邊水域來進行一些活動那這也是我們特別注意的不寧肯專程跑了中國中國也不鋪黃地毯"},{"start":7291.44,"end":7293.721,"text":"美國對中國的政策主要是在做管理管理雙方的紛爭然後在管理"},{"start":7317.927,"end":7319.889,"text":"有沒有可能在520前夕會產生主權領海上的糾紛事項"},{"start":7348.021,"end":7371.313,"text":"那對於各種的可能的狀況我們都不能夠排除要繼續的來注意那我剛在進來會議室之前媒體朋友也在問這一點那除了520之前也要注意到520之後6月到11月是中共軍事演習的熱季那到時候也要注意到他們會用各種的藉口透過他們例行性的軍事演習來對新政府的兩岸政策施壓"},{"start":7371.893,"end":7372.613,"text":"現在五眼聯盟是日本"},{"start":7399.581,"end":7403.864,"text":"我最後一分鐘請教你另外一個問題就國安局了解臺氣聯算是純民間組織還是中共的覆水組織"},{"start":7423.111,"end":7445.69,"text":"這個陸委會有定義喔確實有注意到委員在提到這個部分的觀察也就是可能在兩岸交流過程當中中共除了釋放一些他的政策訊息或是要不要修改國內的國安法制以外他們也透過相關的為什麼這定義很重要你知道嗎我這一分鐘講完你們做適當的回應就好台七聯"},{"start":7447.185,"end":7466.488,"text":"他是受國台辦業務指導跟監督管理甚至於國台辦的相關人都會名列他的什麼職務什麼職務榮譽的職務那在陸委會有沒有把台七年定義為中共黨政軍相關的覆水組織這是第一件事要釐清第二個如果他是"},{"start":7467.449,"end":7479.268,"text":"他向台灣的國會議員要求去放鬆修改修掉國安相關法律那這裡面有沒有法律層次問題我覺得是嚴肅要去面對的交流對話我們都不反對"},{"start":7480.663,"end":7502.927,"text":"台灣人也愛和平啊,但和平不是把國家主權、主產賣掉的和平啊和平是一個對侵略者來講是一個假象對於被侵略者是一個努力捍衛的真相所以對話OK,平等互惠OK,不講話其實也OK但是如果在法律的程式那個界定的定義就很清楚喔"},{"start":7503.507,"end":7528.607,"text":"他是不是中共黨政軍的覆水組織有沒有接受他的授命或指導或要求去從事相關權威脅我們國家安全他大概有幾個層次如果他交流是要求你回家要拜拜孝順父母OK不危及國家安全沒問題所以這幾個要件國安局跟相關單位要釐清清楚免得在面對中國的灰色地帶脅迫結果我們自己的法律也灰色地帶的話那"},{"start":7530.849,"end":7532.151,"text":"待會兒洪森漢委員質詢完畢以後休息5分鐘現在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢"},{"start":7563.968,"end":7564.23,"text":"國土辦公室報告"},{"start":7575.017,"end":7596.663,"text":"委員長 主任好我們知道說這個無所不防就是全部設防因為當你把優先次序沒有排序好的話你等於是說把所有的資源分散在所有關鍵基礎建設上面那關鍵基礎建設裡面不管是水、電基本的網際網路的維護、通訊等等都算是關鍵的一環"},{"start":7600.484,"end":7628.895,"text":"那這些基礎建設裡面我們當然很重視它是我們重要的安全軀紐包含醫療等等那我想談一下2017年開始從台灣到馬祖的海底電纜至少已經發現過29次的這個斷纜的事故多半是被中國的船隻給破壞然後我們看到您這邊第5頁有提到說強化各項保安防護量的裡面有提到說當船隻進入警戒區予以告解那還有"},{"start":7630.274,"end":7641.983,"text":"這些包含管制中心、門禁管制紀錄、海欄設定、自動警告系統等等我想請教一下在2023年2月份有兩條海欄遭到勾斷,有沒有事件?"},{"start":7644.724,"end":7659.504,"text":"有沒有自動警告系統有沒有發出作用報告委員自動警報系統當然是主要是針對善意的如果說是不小心的我方的漁船他不小心靠近了所以會提醒他會去離開所以自動警告系統是"},{"start":7660.245,"end":7684.438,"text":"是針對善意的傳指如果說今天他是惡意來做一個破壞他當然他就沒有辦法發生效應所以就要其他的防衛的手段所以這個是多元複式的一種防衛的手段了解這是多元複式的防衛手段但是在2023年2月份他沒有有效的防範到在包含2017年起的29起的這一個事件也沒有有效的做好防護的做法"},{"start":7684.818,"end":7712.488,"text":"那是不是可以請你檢討一下或者是請國土辦其他同仁來思考一下有沒有更好的防護做法因為你說它是多元的複數型的方式來做防護但是很顯然的它是沒有效能的那沒有效能的話我們要做好未來已經知道發生這樣的事情已經知道它無效那是不是可以請能夠做檢討是那想請教一下如果做檢討的話我看今年的預算大概是400多萬嗎400多萬的預算你們大概有國土辦有多少人"},{"start":7713.525,"end":7737.201,"text":"目前國土辦編制人員是16位16位但是剛才我們也提到包含能源供水、通訊傳播、金融、醫療都是重要的一些基礎建設的安全軀扭但是你們有16位這樣的人數夠嗎跟我們很包含因為國土辦主要是做院長級的幕僚機構幕僚機構幕僚單位事實上還是由行政院其他局各部會去做我現在請教的是說您自己覺得"},{"start":7738.71,"end":7746.335,"text":"這樣子16位夠不夠需不需要再去破邊或者是有什麼樣的方式因為我們剛才提到的就是電纜的問題已經出現多次了"},{"start":7747.643,"end":7776.319,"text":"我現在不是要是在思考說有沒有更好的方式你有什麼樣的建議我跟委員報告因為我們現在是打團體戰就以例如剛剛講這個電纜通訊的韌性這個為例那在目前在行政院在統合這件事情的部分主辦的主責單位是數位部的韌性司啦韌性建設司那當然這個相關的網路的建設是由中華電信在執行所以相關的備援"},{"start":7777.219,"end":7800.711,"text":"目前一個是海瀾本身的備援目前有多條的海瀾如果一條斷了有切換到自動切換到第二條那我們也在增建新的更新的海瀾可以更增加海瀾之間的一個餘裕度另外一個就算海瀾斷了我們有其他第二種方式的通訊手段也就是用微波通訊那微波通訊的部分在去年年底"},{"start":7801.891,"end":7824.25,"text":"與馬祖之間的微波通訊的備援能量已經達到足額的能量了也就是說就算海嵐全部中斷光靠微波全部用微波也可以達到足額的一個通訊的一個韌性那當然還有其他的例如說我們在空中的通訊利用低軌衛星或相關的衛星通訊這也是一個全面思考的一個範疇那所以在做"},{"start":7825.191,"end":7839.448,"text":"因為這個面向很廣我們現在剛剛提的只是一個通訊韌性那如果電力韌性又會涉及到另外一個專業部門那或者是說水的韌性又有另外一個專業部門所以想請教主任一下那作為幕僚單位你們主要"},{"start":7840.819,"end":7857.628,"text":"負責的這個角色是什麼提供建議給這些其他部門還是統籌他們的演練這個都包含就是制度面的建立跟執行的一個監管跟一個協助啊像剛有提到說我們相關的一些演練我們也會預定說"},{"start":7858.829,"end":7859.369,"text":"我們可以做要求嗎?"},{"start":7874.897,"end":7903.92,"text":"可以做要求嗎?當然當然那我的意思就是說我們剛才提到的就是包含這個海底電纜的部分那還有其他的部分我一直都我們對於高科技的這一種不管是你說那個cyber security網路安全的攻擊當然都是我們都很重視其實我覺得目前台灣遇到比較多次發生過成功危害到我國安全的包含在桃園機場那兩位工人的那些案件我相信你知道你應該知道這個事情"},{"start":7904.76,"end":7920.298,"text":"我看起來都是比較低科技但是高效能低科技高效能意思是說他不需要用非常複雜的技能他不需要是駭客但是他可以成功癱瘓並且影響到人民對政府的信心那他不需要花出很多的代價我不需要去訓練一個"},{"start":7921.639,"end":7950.209,"text":"年新百萬千萬會有超級天才的駭客來去進入你的系統裡面我就可以派遣人力然後去直接把你的重要的能源設施也好航空設施也好給你破壞那這個部分就是需要演練你必須要假設你必須要有情境演練那情境演練的話那當然是希望說未來這個國土辦可以花更多的時間來督促水資源的部門電力的部門天然氣的部門特別是天然氣相關的部分"},{"start":7951.449,"end":7974.188,"text":"我可以知道說大概以我們的安全的系統因為其實台灣是一個治安非常好的地方所以我們對於這種國家級的危害基本上長時間沒有放在心上這不僅僅是軍方我想這是全台灣的一個普遍的一個心態那這個普遍現在是建立在我們安全的治安上面當然是可以理解那現在的威脅我想已經多次提到了2027年已經講很多次了"},{"start":7974.548,"end":7981.186,"text":"所以在這個部分我是希望從國土辦開始跟國安局也可以一起協力在每一個揭秘層級"},{"start":7982.642,"end":8010.358,"text":"或者是說在這個不管是在接觸這個基礎建設基礎設施的這些等級都必須要非常完整的門禁系統那完整的門禁系統不是說說就是形式上面看一下你的這個文件你可以進去你不可以進去變得要更加嚴謹的去執行那作為幕僚機構作為提供協助的這個機構來講你必須要確保這件事情真正在發生我現在不講高科技我就講低科技高風險的事情"},{"start":8011.118,"end":8036.707,"text":"我們只需要兩個工人就可以癱瘓我們國家機場的電力我們只要一個孤狼式的作案就可以進入高鐵的系統我相信你還記得那位吳信律師當初要顛覆應該說某種程度是要造成重大的死傷那只要是高鐵如果真的是被破壞的話就可能真的發生事情所以我們不需要作文我們需要不斷的演練跟操練那我們請國安局長請蔡局長"},{"start":8044.934,"end":8064.194,"text":"局長,不好意思時間比較短,那我們就針對以色列跟烏克蘭的部分,給台灣的啟示這邊簡單的來詢問首先烏克蘭的這個部分,我想包含我們的準副總統當選的蕭美琴,還有一些其他的重要國的元首都一直在強調烏克蘭對台灣非常重要,那烏克蘭的勝利對台灣也很重要,你怎麼看這件事情?"},{"start":8065.236,"end":8083.059,"text":"對,我想就整個國際的一些衝突的情境的發生然後他當然可以在軍事上給我們很多的啟發新的作戰的方法有沒有我們可以學習的機會這大概是我們觀察的第一個重點第二個重點是對於戰爭的預防跟示警有沒有辦法在衝突發生之前"},{"start":8083.499,"end":8107.552,"text":"就透過國際的情報的合作能夠掌收到相關的動態趨勢以便來做必要的一個因應或是透過預防外交的方式來降低衝突發生的可能性我想這兩個層面的意義對我們國安局來講都非常的重要謝謝局長局長那我能這你剛剛講的非常好那我想請教那烏克蘭勝利是不是有辦法嚇阻另外一個大國對台灣的這個襲擊的可能性"},{"start":8108.312,"end":8130.543,"text":"當然,我想烏克蘭的一個戰事的發生那很多國家都在觀察它的一個意涵這包括攻擊方跟防守方那假如說這一次的惡霧戰爭烏克蘭沒有辦法來讓俄國增加它侵略的成本的話很有可能其他也有侵略意圖的國家也會來抄襲這樣的一個侵犯的一個動作跟行為"},{"start":8131.663,"end":8157.394,"text":"那美國的國務卿最近接受BBC的專訪還有多家外媒的專訪都不斷的提到中國是把一些重要的軍事零組件他沒有直接把軍火給這個俄羅斯但是他把重要的零組件不斷的提供給俄羅斯讓俄羅斯持續能夠來去製造他們的裝甲戰爭機器等等那這樣子的問題不斷的在出現如果我們要有效嚇阻另外一個國家對台灣侵襲的野心我就講中共那我們應該怎麼樣協助烏克蘭"},{"start":8159.395,"end":8174.346,"text":"那我們不能夠也不應該直接軍事援助這股客覽但是同時我們遇到中國是直接把一些重要的零件零組件讓他們可以大量的在快速的經過一年多的時間裡面本來應該已經沒有軍事資源能夠持續戰爭"},{"start":8175.447,"end":8196.203,"text":"但是卻因為中國的原因能夠提供他們重要的民主圈臺灣可以扮演什麼角色?臺灣該不該扮演角色?我想就怎麼樣來增加侵略者戰爭的成本應該是國際民主社群大家一起來努力的來讓俄國這次侵略行動可以遭受到必要的一個損失而嚇阻未來有類似的一個侵略的一個戰爭的行為那就臺灣來講國際社會因為正在對"},{"start":8198.985,"end":8203.269,"text":"我必須要強調這個制裁的部分還有我國其實有很多不肖的產業不肖的企業抱歉我講錯了不肖的企業包含提供一些重要的零組件給北韓"},{"start":8221.616,"end":8244.378,"text":"以及俄羅斯這些都必須要把這些情報有效的遏止住我們不可以花錢自己把自己送上這一個腳架這是不可以做的事情那所以這些情報必須要密切的和我國友善的盟邦來分享這些資訊來確保這樣的事情不會再發生不要說美國在制裁然後我們自己的企業還在做這些事情這是不行的"},{"start":8245.078,"end":8248.922,"text":"再補一句就是說我們必須從烏克蘭裏面我當然知道說大家說這是其他人的戰爭或者說有人說這個不是只有價值我還是要強調這個是對台灣來講最好的方式不是說"},{"start":8262.395,"end":8262.835,"text":"一句話說明就是說這個部份經濟部"},{"start":8289.045,"end":8289.165,"text":"主席"},{"start":8316.445,"end":8339.091,"text":"接下來請洪森翰委員上台質詢請國安局蔡局長跟國土辦林主任請蔡局長林主任"},{"start":8344.807,"end":8345.027,"text":"馬祖海嵐問題"},{"start":8360.69,"end":8384.267,"text":"這個2023年的2月的時候這個護衛備援的兩條馬祖的海欄在很短的時間內就遭到中國漁船的破壞那所以馬祖對外的通訊都中斷所以剛才有剛才那個畫面所有人都擠到南竿的中華電信前面那好好逮捕希望能夠用到網路對不起我換一個喂這樣可以嗎可以聽得到"},{"start":8386.547,"end":8404.082,"text":"市長,你覺得這是意外事件還是非意外事件?對,這個案例我們一直有在觀察。過去幾年大概臺馬海嵐的斷線已經斷了二十幾次了,那非常不尋常。但是我們在進行各種的判斷不能夠依照我們自己主觀的"},{"start":8409.348,"end":8423.844,"text":"海嵐斷裂一般有判斷到有中國的漁船在周邊的水域作業這是第一個部分第二個他的作業的航機我們會分析他的作業航機是正常的漁船作業航機還是他刻意的只是要去破壞海嵐的航機"},{"start":8425.745,"end":8453.2,"text":"我們看到這個華府的智庫那其實是認為這只是並不是巧合甚至他是採取灰色地帶侵略的手段來切斷對台的網絡 局長同意嗎不能排除這樣的可能性那特別在較兩岸比較緊張的過程當中用這種切斷台灣對外海欄的方式來進行灰色地帶的操作可能性是存在的我們看到馬祖海欄有幾個特殊的地方第一個是他相對於國際上面"},{"start":8454.601,"end":8479.672,"text":"這國際的海欄在巴士海峽它的深度其實是2000到5000馬祖海欄大概只有30公尺到100公尺那它的位置當然也是現在在中國灰色地帶侵略的第一線那人為變因確實我們現在看到這是我們最憂心的地方中國的民用的船隻在這個灰色地帶來進犯那包括是查扣的抽砂船從2019年95艘開始到2020年2021年都超過300艘"},{"start":8484.468,"end":8486.386,"text":"看起來數字是非常非常高的"},{"start":8487.079,"end":8515.091,"text":"那我們這段時間當然我知道我們一直以來行政部門會用說我們有兩個法一個是電信管理法一個是關鍵基礎設施來保護我們這相關的海港措施那我去年其實也對陳建仁院長其實提出了質詢所以後來電信管理法有修了我們把原本在舊的時候他只有寫到登陸站那只有這個國際的登陸站能夠被認定變成新的法變成是不分國內外的登陸站跟纜線其實都有修訂這是我們做的事情"},{"start":8515.791,"end":8537.731,"text":"但我認為就電信法的部分確實有補上了一些但我們接下來看的事情是關於CIA的部分這個局長這是我們CIA的定義這個CIA的定義裡面其實寫得很清楚因人為破壞或自然災害受損進而影響政府或社會功能運作及造成環境改變或其他阻使國家安全或利益遭受損害之餘者"},{"start":8539.028,"end":8556.516,"text":"所以局長你覺得馬祖海嵐算不算CIA當然當然是重要的一個CIA設施之一是嗎因為就海嵐來講我們現在國際海嵐大概有14條國內外離島的海嵐加起來有10條那這涉及到我們對外的一個聯邦那數位部怎麼看"},{"start":8559.357,"end":8575.765,"text":"蘇衛部的歸納有沒有把海蘭……以蘇衛部我剛同仁跟我提醒的是蘇衛部主要是以國際海蘭為主要的關切的重點局長就我理解蘇衛部並不贊成把馬祖海蘭放入CI裡面"},{"start":8581.008,"end":8596.975,"text":"對,我剛已經提過了,就國家安全的角度來講,我們認為國際的海嵐跟國內相關外離島的海嵐都非常的重要。那數位部這樣認定,請問國安局或國土辦,一樣國土辦,你們對數位部這樣子認定的方法,這樣限塑的方法,你們的態度是什麼?"},{"start":8599.898,"end":8620.031,"text":"委員好,那個當然這個數位部是他負責相關數位海欄的這樣的一個主責單位,我們會尊重他但是我要跟委員報告,就是委員其實在這一,剛剛有提到修法的部分修法的部分有把上岸的這個海欄...國土辦的態度是尊重數位部嗎?按照剛剛蔡局長的講法"},{"start":8622.285,"end":8640.322,"text":"剛剛他是覺得馬祖海欄當然應該列入到CIA裡面喔是 我跟委員報告因為我說尊重但是因為現在實體上已經把他納進去了為什麼實體上的意思是什麼就是剛剛您有提到那個修法的部分已經把進到海欄站的纜線也納入防護的範圍"},{"start":8641.263,"end":8667.282,"text":"是,但是沒有列入到CIA裡面是,確實他們有單獨列上去列入CIA裡面的話,他其實必須要,我們要去防護他各種的義務其實是比剛剛講的更多的嘛這個林主任,這應該不用我們多說嘛是,所以跟委員報告,像我們以海嵐戰的演習為例他的範圍就會涵蓋到這個國內的海嵐所以相對應的要求林主任,我們都知道"},{"start":8667.662,"end":8694.631,"text":"我現在調了相關的演習的記錄上一次演習是在2021年而且是桌上的演習請問我們在CIA的演習是桌上演習嗎他可以透過桌推兵推跟使兵但是我想這部分我們會再進一步跟他做上一次的演習是2021年我們光看2022年2023年就發生了這麼多在馬祖海嵐被受到侵害的事件"},{"start":8695.988,"end":8718.071,"text":"請問今年我們有要針對馬祖海蘭來做演習嗎?照理來說如果被列入C.I的話應該是每年都要演習每年都要巡檢甚至國土辦可以有事前的納管事後巡檢的這樣的權責但到底為什麼我們不願意把他列入C.I?我跟委員報告我們今年的巡檢的標的有含"},{"start":8719.432,"end":8730.457,"text":"其實您剛提到的那個機房我們會去做巡檢我現在講的是馬祖海嵐啊因為它的上岸點的一個點在那個地方是 但是那只是上岸點啊"},{"start":8731.789,"end":8748.6,"text":"阿至於相關的一些防護的作為我們也有多做一些掌握所以剛剛跟委員主任我到目前為止還聽不出明明蔡局長也覺得他應該列入CIA你覺得他不該列入CIA嗎用你的專業判斷用你的專業判斷你覺得馬祖海蘭該不該列入CIA用你的專業判斷跟他們做一個討論跟確認那個"},{"start":8759.568,"end":8769.797,"text":"不管是局長或者是主任我必須說我非常非常疑惑我當然也找過數位部來討論過幾次但我不懂為什麼不願意把馬祖海蘭列入CI"},{"start":8771.564,"end":8797.076,"text":"但他現在說我們用微波等等的但我們都很清楚知道其實微波沒有辦法完全替代掉實質的海欄光纖海欄的功能尤其他的頻寬是非常非常不足的甚至當如果有特定的我們在外在的威脅來的時候我們都知道可能是軍用政府用為先對不對即便是微波我們現在查到的數據這個微波他的這個"},{"start":8800.555,"end":8811.468,"text":"它是大概是16Gbps微波的部分我們現在到2023年年底是擴充到10.6Gbps可是我們的海欄其實是有100T"},{"start":8817.622,"end":8844.389,"text":"我們確定威脅的頻寬可以讓如果我們真正發生什麼被封鎖被包圍出現混亂的時候除了政府用跟軍用夠以外民用也夠嗎我們確定嗎這件事情林主任或者是局長我們確定嗎我跟委員報告10GB確定夠嗎會不會民用是不夠的會不會有很多在民間的訊息產生的混亂"},{"start":8845.729,"end":8873.892,"text":"會不會有這些問題我跟委員報告在目前以以往的使用情形來看是可以到足額的覆蓋但是軍用跟民用是優先的那民用夠嗎就是整體的計算但是我們還是要持續的備援再備援那另外剛有提到就台馬海欄的部分是不是要納進去CI這一塊我會再跟數位部做一個溝通跟確認我知道數位部一直抗拒這件事情"},{"start":8874.432,"end":8894.439,"text":"但到現在為止我得不到一個明確合理的理由為什麼馬祖海蘭可以不列入CIA如果你們知道也請告訴我我們可以理性討論但到目前為止我得不到一個合理的回答明明是一個會讓已經這麼常被破壞"},{"start":8895.848,"end":8917.108,"text":"而且大家也都知道它的風險也都知道它會帶來的混亂我們在CIA的定義上面也都感覺得到它就是符合但對不起我們這個主管機關不認就是不認也因為它的不認所以我們相關的管理、巡檢包括演練的密度都不如我們真正列入的CIA"},{"start":8919.524,"end":8938.503,"text":"為什麼?委員我溝通了解結果一定要跟委員報告這個局長跟國防我希望吼第一個我們應該要盡力尤其是像馬祖海蘭這樣這樣子的我認為他就是關鍵基礎設施就是CI了他民運帶來的風險就是很大的"},{"start":8939.674,"end":8961.085,"text":"這個通訊的設施我們也知道通訊其實是應該列入到CI裡面大的範疇裡面是有的但今天因為數位部他有一個他的偏執我不知道為什麼但他就是不願意我覺得這讓我們在相關的防護的密度都受到很大的影響這是事實證明的我拿出數據了上一次的演練是2021年"},{"start":8964.025,"end":8984.7,"text":"是2021��2021年而且還是桌上的推演我們希望這個相關的演練都要跟地方政府合作有跟地方政府合作嗎甚至我們還都要求這些相關的演練還要及時的向民眾發出告警啊我們這種桌上的演練的方式可以符合我們在演練上面的規範嗎"},{"start":8986.189,"end":8987.15,"text":"最後一張我要說剛剛最後一張我們要要求國土辦跟這個"},{"start":9009.189,"end":9009.289,"text":"我們來反應,謝謝"},{"start":9042.213,"end":9043.428,"text":"好我們現在休息五分鐘"},{"start":9395.683,"end":9400.548,"text":"我們現在繼續開會接下來請王洪威委員上臺質詢好謝謝主席我請我們的蔡局長請蔡局長"},{"start":9422.395,"end":9438.332,"text":"今天我們所討論議題其實涵蓋範圍非常大但是我們非常關心的就是在一些國外的暗網裡面有一些我們包含我們國防外交的一些機敏資料在國外的暗網裡面公然出售"},{"start":9439.073,"end":9454.687,"text":"光是今年就兩起引起大家非常關注的議題一個是在今年的二月期間傳出我們的海軍海巡外交部的一些採購合約的資料外泄"},{"start":9459.05,"end":9480.475,"text":"那個時候這個是由中華電信的資料外洩,因為這些資料包含海軍司令部租用的一些衛星轉換器還有外交部的一些資訊合作案,對外資訊合作案,還有中華電信幫海巡署去安裝衛星通訊等等"},{"start":9481.315,"end":9509.629,"text":"那因為這個時間已經有一段時間了我想請問一下這個說當時說要去調查調查的結果如何因為委員提到的有兩個案子那一個部分是有沒有可能案往上有涉及到公部門相關的文件的外洩是不是有洩那二來是洩的文件有沒有經過篡改那這部分相關的部會已經有在做內部的行政調查這大概第一點這兩個案子有沒有外洩的狀況"},{"start":9510.712,"end":9532.524,"text":"我沒有尊重行政部門的調查的結果因為他們進行的是他們部內的行政調查到目前為止都沒有任何的訊息嗎因為我們過去很多的外泄包含內政部的互證資料外泄每一次都是說調查中調查中第一個連有沒有外泄都沒有去證實如果你沒有證實你如何去防堵"},{"start":9533.044,"end":9535.686,"text":"同意,非常同意,因為個案的部分我們沒有涉入他們的行政調查,所以這部分我們尊重,但是..."},{"start":9552.579,"end":9580.265,"text":"對就國安的角度我正要跟委員解釋就國安的角度來講我們會去稍微釐清一下有可能有可能的問題會發生在哪裡第一個比如說會不會部會之間的電子公文的交換系統有沒有問題那第二個就算電子交換系統沒有出現問題會不會有人為因為在處理檔案過程當中有複製然後複製過程當中有違反相關的資安規定這部分也要注意所以就國安的角度我們認為會有一些漏洞也跟委員報告"},{"start":9580.865,"end":9605.51,"text":"我在上禮拜也跟陳建元院長有提到這件事那他在我禮拜三早上跟他講之後他禮拜三下午馬上就召集會議來處理我們國安局所反映的問題所以這部分是有一些密切的聯繫跟意思剛才講就是兩種可能我覺得第二種可能就非常嚴重囉第一個是說你們在交換的過程裡面有沒有外洩第二個是變成可能有人去複製這些檔案去外洩去賣給國外的案網"},{"start":9607.551,"end":9620.273,"text":"因為我覺得我們發生這麼多這樣一些機敏的資料外泄但是最後都不了了之然後我們接下來就看到一而再再而三的發生未來有可能防堵嗎?"},{"start":9621.151,"end":9644.657,"text":"對,這是我跟委員說明的一個部分是針對個案要來釐清每一個公文裡面到底有沒有被外洩或偽造的可能性第二個我剛剛跟委員提醒的是我們就國安局的角度來講我們是從制度面來檢視過程當中可能有的漏洞然後來提供給行政部門做快速的處理我認為我們應該要對外界要有一個交代是"},{"start":9645.077,"end":9671.182,"text":"有或沒有然後有沒有進行懲處而不是每一次都用這個是任職作戰然後就輕輕待過另外一個就是說其實我們在國安的問題裡面最近我們特別談到我們的電價問題包含我們的能源的問題那麼最近其實頻頻發生區域性的大停電其實這也是國安危機"},{"start":9672.843,"end":9686.874,"text":"另外我想請教一下,最近台中火力八電廠現在已經有10部燃煤機組,現在要再準備興建2部燃氣機組,而且要規劃有13座天然氣儲存槽"},{"start":9692.498,"end":9709.97,"text":"我想請問局長．如果當我們的發電．這個最重要的能源基礎設施．如此高度的集中在某一個發電廠．然後我們的天然氣的除潮．也高度的集中在某一個發電廠．請問這個合適嗎"},{"start":9713.132,"end":9735.018,"text":"對我想就能源安全的部署來講確實應該要盡量的多元化多元的來源的管道會讓我們的能源安全韌性更高那對於委員在營務上有提到包括天然氣除潮各方面的建制的狀況我們認為這非常的重要在提升能源安全跟韌性的過程當中所以不應該過度集中"},{"start":9735.558,"end":9755.537,"text":"因為也許地方市長他所關心的是不要造成空污可是從拉高到一個國安的層級如果我們未來的發電用非發電80%火力發電其實這都已經過度集中在某一個能源的供應然後又過度集中在某一個發電廠這個從國安問題其實是有問題的對不對"},{"start":9759.941,"end":9760.601,"text":"接下來請洪孟楷委員上台質詢"},{"start":9799.189,"end":9802.531,"text":"賴清德總統當選人說在記者會的時候宣布喊錯你的名字不止一次"},{"start":9822.441,"end":9843.173,"text":"你們是有讀不熟口誤吧口誤口誤兩三次三四次但私下沒有發生過這種狀況私下沒有發生這種狀況那這樣子本席才會覺得好奇跟擔心那會不會有國安危機我們的總統當選人居然在那麼公開的場合然後一而再再看著你想著別人局長我覺得這滿嚴肅的"},{"start":9850.727,"end":9877.797,"text":"總統身為中華民國的國會一份子我們也認為是說我們的元首的身體健康以及相關的一個狀態都要是最好的狀態才能夠代表我們國家但是他公開的場合講錯你的名字那你又講說私下他沒有發生過這樣的狀況那你們之前有沒有一起開過會有很常開會很常開會所以他沒有被排除在蔡英文總統的國安核心之外"},{"start":9878.197,"end":9895.201,"text":"我們一直都很常開會一直都很常開會一直都很常開會但是他居然跟你感覺沒有很熟那真的做好了交接準備了嗎沒有,因為私底下沒有發生過這個狀況,從來沒有所以你也沒有再去請教賴清德總統為什麼他會唸錯你名字應該口誤,對"},{"start":9899.687,"end":9927.063,"text":"口誤本席希望是口誤啦本席也不希望我們的總統準總統有任何的身體健康的一個狀態但如果說真的有的話也應該要去做一些了解好不好那再來我想今天最重要的還是說關鍵基礎設施存在威脅本席也看了你這邊報告特別講是說天然災害人為危害跟資安攻擊三大類型三大類型並且有20處選定要做安全防護的演習但我先請教"},{"start":9928.064,"end":9950.471,"text":"我們到目前為止本席也認為國安很重要本席也認為是說我們應該要加強防範但是我們最基本的或最基礎的國家級的警報到目前只沒有標準局長有沒有注意到這個問題標準的部分應該還是有一個作業標準跟程序去年年底去年選前突然間發一個國家級的警報說有飛彈飛越台灣"},{"start":9956.144,"end":9977.064,"text":"就後來發覺不是飛彈是衛星那個時候全部人都接收到國家級警報今年4月3號花蓮大地震很多的鄉親都講是說我沒有收到警報到4月的時候那麼多的餘震有人有收到有人沒收到那這樣子算不算國家級警報沒有標準"},{"start":9977.981,"end":10006.83,"text":"到底是什麼時候要發這個警報什麼時候不用發這個警報那衛星飛過突然間煞有其事說飛彈飛過那我想請教從去年到現在我們又有多少衛星飛過台灣上空有沒有掌握有都有從那一次之後國防部開始在每一次中共發射衛星火箭之前就做事先的告警都有事先告警但都沒有再發過國家級警報啦所以這是不是又是標準不一"},{"start":10008.473,"end":10020.516,"text":"局長你這樣就是證實了我們標準確實沒有一定嗎所以在選前的時候我就可以故意誘導飛彈飛過讓大家恐慌抗中保台又來了那完了之後又不用了"},{"start":10022.861,"end":10048.04,"text":"這個治安危機到底是我們政府自己製造的還是外部的攻擊就當時的狀況來講我們對於中共所發射的火箭或相關的飛彈我們都能夠掌握也會事先預判它的彈道中共那時候發的是火箭跟飛彈嗎講清楚喔我要講不管是火箭或飛彈我們都能夠掌握那以當時來講中共發生的那一次的國家級警報發的是什麼它當時是衛星火箭那誰誰把它發錯但"},{"start":10051.222,"end":10060.791,"text":"這後來有做一些內部的檢討,因為他自私的內建的資訊的英文就給他寫成是MISO,所以造成外界有這樣的誤解,後來已經修訂了。我們的英文還可以講錯。這已經修訂了。"},{"start":10063.775,"end":10087.509,"text":"所以過去這幾年國防部真的蔡英文主政下都是蔡英文我跟委員說明一下剛剛的案例他因為是之前就有預判他的衛星火箭發射的路徑但是因為路徑偏移了所以才造成國防部認為應該要發射警報我覺得重點在於是你要強化國家基礎建設本席沒有意見本席也認為應該要強化但是如果說連國家級的警報都沒有一個標準的話我覺得這也是國安危機"},{"start":10088.47,"end":10105.272,"text":"某種程度上因為會在關鍵時刻誤導或者是讓人民造成不必要的恐慌該警報的時候要警報但不該警報的時候出現警報這也是國安違戒一環局長你認同嗎沒有我想警報的發布它一定有它一定的標準的程序"},{"start":10105.472,"end":10133.235,"text":"但是在作業的細部的一些規範裡面在經過不斷地在修正是各機關各行其事啊那國安局不應該來去做了解嗎或是說你會不會認為說這樣子如果說國家急警報在不適當的場合出現或不適當的場合來營造的話也會造成民心的紛擾對這個過程要透過不斷的一個個案來累積經驗來做必要修正委員剛剛講到地震的部分也是不斷地在修正"},{"start":10134.425,"end":10147.37,"text":"來 局長那我最後要請教一下現在我看到內政部這兩天有一個消息是我們強化寶二的一個整備就是說寶二現在要做整備然後要去很多的基礎設施這邊來去做一個維護"},{"start":10149.511,"end":10159.015,"text":"保安局有掌握這個訊息嗎?保安局有給建議嗎?保二的功能本來就是在保護國家的關鍵基礎設施這兩天內政部又說加強保二的一個人員編制所以說有在擴大成軍"},{"start":10168.963,"end":10190.529,"text":"這部分我們尊重內政部相關的一個規劃因為他還在可能還在做計畫目前還沒有目前還沒有因為本席這兩天接收到我們的基層員警的投訴保二擴大成軍要維護我們國家基礎設施結果反而造成"},{"start":10192.202,"end":10215.632,"text":"人員一時沒有那麼多所以就從各警察單位機構調人過去現在變成是為了要保二擴大成軍要讓內政部要讓蔡英文政府在520卸任之前可以交代所以把我們很多機關的員警員額全部都調過去造成現在很多機關的員警員額是嚴重不足的是沒有補齊的是沒有補滿的"},{"start":10216.96,"end":10233.222,"text":"那這樣會不會某種程度上也發生我們其他機關的員額不夠我就直接講啦交通建設相關的警務機關他的員額就嚴重不足因為有很多的員額是被調去支援寶二"},{"start":10235.046,"end":10235.646,"text":"提供專業意見為國家服務謝謝"},{"start":10266.96,"end":10269.261,"text":"國安局局長蔡明彥、蔡局長"},{"start":10289.141,"end":10317.743,"text":"好 謝謝主席 黃委員早局長早今天我們討論我們的關鍵基礎設施我相信對台灣整體國防這是一個非常重要的問題但關鍵的問題是我們目前對於關鍵基礎設施我們防護的範圍到底是足夠還是不足夠為什麼我會提這樣子的一個問題2023年我們強化關鍵基礎設施的時候修了22部法律三度通過了"},{"start":10318.732,"end":10335.148,"text":"我相信大家都認為這是重要的事情但問題是在這次修法以後一個非常關鍵的問題是說我們真的把所有的關鍵基礎設施都納入了嗎我為什麼會提出這樣的問題來請教一下局長"},{"start":10336.189,"end":10356.508,"text":"我們透過22部法律這種列舉式的方式去處理關鍵基礎設施我負責任的把每一部法律列了哪些關鍵基礎設施我全部都盤點出來了那盤點完了以後我就開始納悶了我們的軍機場算不算是重要的關鍵基礎設施請局長回答"},{"start":10361.479,"end":10374.102,"text":"那就那個關鍵基礎設施相關的分類這是國土辦的業務我們是情報機關我們提供的是關鍵基礎設施來請國土辦委員好 國土辦您主任軍機場是不是關鍵基礎設施我們軍機場的部分是有國防部這邊有相關的一些防衛的作為對不起你沒有回答我的問題軍機場是不是關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":10387.56,"end":10400.059,"text":"在目前我們這邊並不是我們納管的那問題就來了如果軍機場這麼重要的地方我們沒有把它納入關鍵基礎設施然後我們今天在討論關鍵基礎設施對我國防的重要性"},{"start":10406.772,"end":10428.838,"text":"你不會覺得很荒謬嗎?我跟委員報告因為我們國防的部份軍機黨的設施的部份是由國防部那邊在整體在盤點處理是!那國防部依照什麼盤點處理?這當然國防法的相關規定不是國防法的相關規定啊!局長您知道嗎?國防部的部份我想我們尊重他們的專業的評估還有法理的依據"},{"start":10430.131,"end":10455.196,"text":"對不起喔,我有一點驚訝今天我們在討論關鍵基礎設施的時候來的國安局的局長跟國土辦辦公室的主任對這麼重要的問題會這麼不熟啊我真的蠻驚訝的目前就軍機場的部分是在哪一個法律裡面來去歸管的,您知道嗎?您知道嗎?來請國土辦這邊"},{"start":10461.201,"end":10472.793,"text":"在相關的法令裡面有包含國安法、要塞堡壘法要塞堡壘地帶法裡面的規範依照要塞堡壘地帶法裡面的規範以龍潭軍用機場為例有公告嗎這個是很重要的關鍵基礎設施啊"},{"start":10484.312,"end":10512.847,"text":"報告委員針對這個國防的相關的有一些他周圍有一些限制或管理的規定他是有一個國防依照剛剛講的要塞堡壘法去做一個公告你說的沒有錯嘛我齁幫你把話講完整一點如果是國防部的話他們會說這個應該是歸在要塞堡壘地帶法裡面規範那下一個問題來了依照要塞堡壘地帶法裡面規範的話要公告目前所公告的22個地方有包括軍機場嗎"},{"start":10514.755,"end":10527.893,"text":"沒有包括軍機場沒有包括軍機場所以現在下一個關鍵的問題就來了我們在上一次修法的時候針對這麼重要的軍機場我們既沒有把它納入關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":10530.031,"end":10555.316,"text":"在要塞堡壘地帶法裡面也沒有公告是屬於他們要防護的要塞堡壘那請問針對軍機場這麼重要的關鍵基礎設施目前我們所採取的防護沒有把它納入關鍵基礎設施會產生什麼問題我直接把它點名啦這個是包括了台大法學院包括了中研院一群學者"},{"start":10556.662,"end":10585.561,"text":"對於我們的國安體系所提出的事情他們在盤點上一屆國會修關鍵基礎設施的時候重大疏漏的時候一群由臺大法學院跟中研院法學院的學者他們聯名寫了一個聲明盤點上一屆國會修法以後出現重大的漏洞那些重大的漏洞包括我剛剛所點出來的第一個問題來看一下"},{"start":10586.823,"end":10613.688,"text":"中國的富豪買美國空軍基地旁邊的土地結果被駁回引發相當大的爭議為什麼因為這個美國空軍基地旁邊的土地他們把它納入什麼關鍵基礎設施的範圍之內局長贊不贊成對有他的相關的安全考量的依據可以理解可以理解嗎對台灣有相同的作為嗎"},{"start":10615.936,"end":10634.506,"text":"這就是我的問題台灣有相同的作為嗎?捍衛國家安全不是喊口號是在具體的法律設計跟我們的行政作為上嘛美國有這樣的規範那我就簡單的請教阿您贊不贊成這樣的規範如果您贊成的話我下一個問題台灣有這樣的規範嗎?如果台灣沒有這樣的規範台灣應不應該有這樣的規範來請教局長"},{"start":10641.805,"end":10662.875,"text":"對,我們可以來討論可以來討論嗎討論了8年啦討論了8年啦你們上次盤點關鍵基礎設施的時候學者很認真啦為了台灣的國家安全人家把問題都盤點出來了隔了一年你今天在外交國防委員會跟大家講說可以來討論好,需要討論多久"},{"start":10664.488,"end":10683.193,"text":"有在規劃,我們請那個國土辦公室大家需要規劃多久?報告委員,這個釐清過在目前兩岸人民關係條例裡面有相關的規定齁在授權的執法裡面,到地區人民來台投資或取得不動產沒有沒有,你先停一下這個已經不是中國人買不買的問題啊"},{"start":10684.753,"end":10704.087,"text":"是其他的人買可能都有這個問題啊北韓的人買你覺得就OK嗎蘇俄的人買你覺得就OK嗎我現在在跟你講規範的事情啊當局長說要檢討我也給你時間檢討我最後一個問題不要耽誤其他委員的時間嘛要討論多久就這麼簡單的問題要討論多久"},{"start":10707.657,"end":10722.856,"text":"跟委員報告因為現在有相關的法令我可不可以做個說明一個是在土地法裡面針對外國人來購買的一些限制的法令的規定裡面就包含有要塞堡壘法地帶所劃定的所以我就問你嘛要塞堡壘法有說要軍機廠嗎"},{"start":10725.904,"end":10753.28,"text":"我剛已經告訴你了嘛要塞堡壘法有公告軍機場嗎你還在講公話我所有的法規都幫你整理完耶我很訝異耶竟然比我還不熟阿報告委員在許可辦法裡面的有一款是各目的社會主管機關來做一個會商吼然後呢會商完了嗎公告了嗎現在各個如果外國人要來取得國內的土地"},{"start":10753.86,"end":10778.127,"text":"都會經由內政部相關會商程序來辦理這個顯然沒有回答到委員的問題因為剛剛提到的是這個軍機場的部分那國外其實有一些包括美國都有相關的那個規範其實可以提供參考會後跟委員還有在委員會也提供相關的說明報告好不好好謝謝主席的才事謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":10783.91,"end":10786.552,"text":"主席,在場的委員先進,列席的政府機關首長官員,會場工作夥伴,媒體記者女士先生,有請國安局蔡局長和國土辦林主任。"},{"start":10810.479,"end":10836.331,"text":"兩位好我想我不會跟前面的委員一直把國防設施跟關鍵基礎設施混為一談但是我認為在顯而易見的國防設施之外或者軍事設施之外或要塞堡壘地帶之外有很多是我們的基礎設施但它的關鍵隱而不查希望你們要注意首先這是一個在上個月前有一個港口起重機安裝可疑通訊裝備是美國的"},{"start":10837.972,"end":10860.453,"text":"港口有橋式起重機在吊貨櫃的,八成是中國製的,它在部分安裝了可疑的通訊設備。結果,美方透過港口經濟司法部門了解來自中國的振華重工,多次要求遠端存取他們位在美國的起重機,以及其他海式基礎設施。請問,局長你有看到這樣的一個報導嗎?"},{"start":10861.345,"end":10876.262,"text":"有,事實上這個不只是在委員現在所提到報導是今年3月份,去年就發生了,然後當時已經請港港局做一個全面的徹查,已經全面徹查過所以你們認為台灣的港口集中機有沒有同樣的可能的疑慮,國安會這樣的疑慮"},{"start":10877.343,"end":10899.248,"text":"對,在我們通報航港局之後,航港局做了全面的徹查,徹查完之後是沒有,因為我們國內的港口並沒有使用遠端遙控的相關中國的基礎。這個我請你再想想看,因為你所謂的相關主管包括速發部,對不對,包括經濟部、商業局,來我們告訴你,這裡的錢在哪裡?固定之下的架空移動起動機俗稱的吊貨櫃的。"},{"start":10900.408,"end":10923.817,"text":"來自中國、日本跟荷蘭的在過去幾年大幅的增加其中以中國的成長最多有沒有看到有有這些都分布在台灣的重要港部啊但我們剛剛在講的重點是美方他發現比較有資安疑慮的是那些起重機他具有遠端遙控我了解但是你本身你們有人你們是委請其他部門嘛"},{"start":10924.617,"end":10950.935,"text":"我這邊有資訊有告訴我們是誰會知道我再慢慢講移動式的起重機這些我們看到來自德國、日本、中國過去以德國為大宗但是這些國家逐年在遞減包括日本在遞減中國卻大幅的成長你覺得為什麼因為中國是世界工廠他們大量的生產這些製造機具包括工具、母機但是為什麼今天本席會提出這個問題來因為往下看"},{"start":10953.561,"end":10979.298,"text":"因為中國製的起重機具他用的是付錢就能取得的認證我們都要求他認證你請那些機關去幫你看他也是看認證他取得的第三方認證資料通常在美國、日本、歐盟跟韓國他都不採納那你知道這些中國製的起重機來到我們台灣他的出示的認證是哪一個國家出具的嗎有沒有去查過"},{"start":10981.429,"end":11008.862,"text":"這些認證在這四個國家是不採納的但是在台灣才不採納是不是請局長去了解一下好再接下來我再告訴你這個中國的製的起重機具的製造商本身就是中國人大的代表啊進口商知道他進口的是來自於中國的進口商當然知道嘛他去跟他進嘛但是進到台灣來之後購買的廠商施工的單位知道嗎"},{"start":11010.761,"end":11021.316,"text":"軍方的設備或港部的設備他開了標他知道他們買到的進口商進來的東西是中國製的嗎?你認為他知不知道?"},{"start":11026.242,"end":11049.837,"text":"這個部分我們剛剛同學在跟我講比較詳細的資訊也就是說在清查過程當中一些相關廠商的涉入的狀況也都有進行一些了解那我先問你我們的過去曾經發生過學校的遊覽巴士在學生校外教學的出了狀況或者是旅遊巴士交通不要求通通要標示在車體上要標示我請問你"},{"start":11050.757,"end":11073.678,"text":"你自我贊成相關機關在這些進口產品的管制上要合格上標明基礎的產地,你贊不贊成?我們會看主管機關,這是政府部門大家的分工,要看主管部門他們的評估是什麼那你覺得呢?你個人認為這樣標示出來有沒有幫助?這樣的建議的背後的考量可以理解包括要中英文的字體標示出來對不對?好,後續還有"},{"start":11076.36,"end":11091.701,"text":"中國式的起重機可不可以遠端的監控跟操作其實有時候連進口商都不太清楚甚至連操作的起重機手他也不太了解為什麼因為很多的機能啊他沒有被開啟但是他的後門可以遠端開啟啊"},{"start":11092.822,"end":11106.265,"text":"我進來的設備不需要這個功能為什麼跟你講這個事情呢因為在我們的工廠裡面有些機具當發生公安事件的時候要立刻停機操作人被捲進去了遠端馬上一個shut down就停了"},{"start":11107.022,"end":11124.343,"text":"對"},{"start":11128.846,"end":11141.256,"text":"所以你們不要說你們徹查過了只要是這些機具它的本身具有一定的公共安全的工作安全的危害性通常會要加入一些防呆"},{"start":11142.737,"end":11163.442,"text":"那終止的措施防止造成傷害這些都具備有遠端控制的功能所以為了保障資訊安全國營單位、公共工程及軍事單位全面禁止中國製的機具進場施作,你支持嗎?對,我們再請行政院相關的單位來針對這個部分再做...我再告訴你一個很嚴重的事情齁主席也知道齁全民防衛動員防動法第16條動員階段可以增掉民間的各種物資設施"},{"start":11168.843,"end":11173.979,"text":"你知道嗎?我們有哪些的基礎設施在全民防衛動員的時候要動員的?起重機要不要?板車要不要?"},{"start":11177.113,"end":11199.599,"text":"外首要不要這些機具很多都不是台灣生產的喔所以在暫時徵用的中國製的機具或設備是否可能有國家安全的疑慮舉例來講我告訴你對於反空降的作為所有的單臂式的高級的起重機他在軍方徵用的時候會在反空降的地點他把他升起來防止敵軍空降散兵有沒有"},{"start":11200.279,"end":11227.859,"text":"有這樣的作用嘛對不對我們會把這些大型的起重機迅速集中作為立即的反空降的一個作為如果這些機具不舉呢遠端控制不舉呢發動不了呢有沒有這個安全疑慮同不同意同意啊同意委員會推論所以我們要求兩個事情主席站起來了請研議對國營單位、公共工程及經濟單位全面禁止中國製的機具進場施作以確保資訊安全的可行應一個月提出文明報告可以嗎"},{"start":11229.076,"end":11254.236,"text":"這應該是國土辦的事情,對不起,應該問主任這是你們國土辦的事情我們會來召集各單位來瞭解好,那也請嚴應暫時正用機具的設備規範排除所有中國製的機具,包括晶片保障國家安全,可不可以請你們瞭解現在的設備很多這種晶片,晶片都有傳輸能力進一步的去瞭解,可以嗎我們會找各單位來一起會商瞭解好,謝謝,謝謝兩位,謝謝主席好,謝謝"},{"start":11260.83,"end":11269.993,"text":"謝謝 接下來請楊瓊瑩委員上台質詢謝謝主席 楊瓊瑩發言想邀請局長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 楊委員早局長首先給你恭喜這個留任那520過後我們國安局的政策有什麼改變嗎"},{"start":11290.975,"end":11311.37,"text":"對,我們的國家安全政策本來就有它的一貫性那怎麼樣來確保臺海地區的和平穩定一直是我們最重要的戰略目標我們會持續往這個目標來努力持續往這個目標,所以方向還是沒變嘛還是一樣以保護國家安全為基礎對,維持臺海穩定那在你的報告書當中我們看到也就是國土辦"},{"start":11312.691,"end":11313.532,"text":"從風險的辨識跟主要的威脅"},{"start":11332.032,"end":11358.048,"text":"還有脆弱性的分析這一些面向專業的來提供給國土辦那顯示了一個問題也就是說情資的取得是相當重要的一個工作所以本席要請教局長在國際情報的合作上面你目前跟這個各國合作的管道是否通暢是否足以保障我國的安全"},{"start":11358.268,"end":11358.468,"text":"所以這個通道"},{"start":11377.048,"end":11395.182,"text":"是要暢通的這是非常重要的關鍵因為很多的國家或許他會用知通工具來攻擊我們的關鍵基礎設施所以這一環是目前世界各國都非常關注的那我方怎麼應對"},{"start":11395.782,"end":11425.282,"text":"有,就關鍵基礎設施來講因為我們有分為八大類的關鍵基礎設施包括能源、水資源等等交通還有政府部門等等那在資通的部分我們因為又有貴院通過的資通安全管理法所以由數位部來做橫向的我剛跟各位說明的是八大類它是直向的那各類都有主要的政府來進行業務的督導但是橫向的部分資安的部分由數位部來進行相關的資安基礎設施的共同的一個"},{"start":11426.082,"end":11448.626,"text":"所以因此也看到了這個問題當然安全很重要所以你報告當中你也說因為發生了興達電廠這個停計的事件所以你們導入了雙備援對備援在備援那在這樣的情況之下你今年預估去年預估是選擇了幾處你今年是選擇40處"},{"start":11454.327,"end":11479.417,"text":"對,就是由行政院層級的、院級的一個巡檢的單位那這個規模的層級,今年有選了40個重點的目標你選了40個嘛,那所以呢對,這是行政院的選擇你這個巡檢了之後呢,那你要怎麼樣應對這個改進的部分我想這個都必須要做配好而且本席也希望,如果"},{"start":11480.678,"end":11486.723,"text":"再討論一個問題美國國土安全部宣布研發人工智慧安全與保障成立顧問委員會"},{"start":11502.858,"end":11503.318,"text":"委員會將運輸、管線、電網營運商、網路、"},{"start":11524.087,"end":11526.028,"text":"委員會要做什麼?"},{"start":11526.028,"end":11538.636,"text":"協助確保AI科技的安全開展,以及設法因應科技能源、公共事業、交通、國防、資訊、科技、食品、"},{"start":11539.517,"end":11545.201,"text":"所以他們換句話說等於是政府部門、產業部門實際上已經串聯起來所以AI的技術可以成為國家關鍵基礎設施的韌性帶來有很多的好處"},{"start":11560.791,"end":11578.093,"text":"但是它也產生了這些隱憂因為剛剛風險就我們的風險隱憂所以在這樣的情況之下你如何應對這個是大家非常緊張比如說我們燃氣運輸部給你進來我們的安全存糧只有多少十天"},{"start":11578.914,"end":11599.924,"text":"那我們怎麼辦所以我們的應對要怎麼應對請做說明對我覺得委員這問題真的非常重要但這問題可能不能單單只是從國家關鍵基礎設施的防護來看而是國家對於新興的科技AI在應用上它所帶來的功能跟風險可能要有些法制面的規範當然所以就你國安局因為人家美國都已經開始"},{"start":11601.364,"end":11606.189,"text":"將行政部門跟將所有的產業鏈全部串聯在一起那我方怎麼應對我們還各自為政我們都知道世界各國歐盟怎麼做美國怎麼做請問我們國安局怎麼做"},{"start":11621.203,"end":11621.583,"text":"您要把這個情節轉達給高層"},{"start":11642.387,"end":11642.407,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":11673.345,"end":11675.086,"text":"主席早有請局長請蔡局長好謝謝主席林委員早"},{"start":11699.209,"end":11703.87,"text":"早安 局長早今天談論的主題確實是真的是有點專業但確實對台灣防衛體系中相當重要的一環那無論平時還是暫時確實都跟全體的軍民士氣都是有很大的關係首先我想要請教局長很多民眾有可能有一些疑問那就是關鍵基礎設施的韌性重點在防護還有安全"},{"start":11724.116,"end":11732.745,"text":"在這個大主題之下,行政院設有國土安全辦公室,由副院長擔任召集人。那請問,國安局在這之中的角色是什麼?主從的關係是什麼?又有什麼具體的成效?好,跟委員報告一下,剛在說明報告有提到這一部分"},{"start":11742.395,"end":11765.464,"text":"也就是說行政院他有針對國土安全有成立相關的一個政策會報那政策會報的機制國安局是成員可以參加這個政策會報相關跨部會的討論那另外呢行政院也有依照國土安全防護的需要來成立相關的一個所謂的指導的綱要指導綱要後面也還有一個專案小組那國安局也是專案小組的成員"},{"start":11766.164,"end":11776.849,"text":"那另外行政院針對國土關鍵基礎設施的防護也有成立相關的情報通報的一個網絡那國安局因為是國家情報主管機關在這部分我們也發揮我們的角色"},{"start":11779.021,"end":11805.223,"text":"最近這幾年國際局勢其實變化速度是比以前還快所以也陸續出現很多很難預測的黑天鵝事件影響著國際局勢的走向譬如說美國退出了TPP還有新冠肺炎疫情還有極端氣候的變遷問題俄烏戰爭甚至到以哈戰爭還有以色列伊朗之間的軍事衝突但是這些事件發生在事前根本是沒有辦法預料到的"},{"start":11805.683,"end":11809.504,"text":"台灣也深受了這些事件的影響那請問局長你對這些國際黑天鵝事件是否產生重大影響對台灣來說這樣的看法為何呢對,委員剛剛所提到的這些都是非常重要的國際情勢的發展那就國安跟情報作業的角度來講怎麼樣來機先預警確實是最重要的"},{"start":11827.748,"end":11848.998,"text":"那你要能夠達到基先預警第一個就必須要掌握到整體發展的脈動跟趨勢那要達到這樣的目的我們跟國際有盟在情報安全的合作也就變得非常的重要那這也是為什麼我們在過去這段時間積極的來加強跟各個國家在這一方面共同關鍵議題的情資的交換來提升我們自己本身的一個能量"},{"start":11851.318,"end":11867.353,"text":"國際局勢大家也知道嘛演變得非常快速那新型態的威脅其實也是不斷的出現尤其是看到中共解放軍近幾年在台海和東亞區域的動作頻繁所以其實確實他們不斷的利用包含了灰色地帶的作戰"},{"start":11867.993,"end":11881.239,"text":"在內的各種超軍事的行動企圖達到脅迫性的合同的目的那請教一下就是國安局統籌的國土安全政策匯報每年召開一次的定期會議但台灣面對這些威脅性的形態的變化卻那麼快速那每年一次的定期會議恐怕會來不及應付這些威脅那是否可以考慮改成每半年呢還是每一季呢這樣的會議呢才能應付這種臨時的威脅"},{"start":11896.865,"end":11918.705,"text":"兩個部分的補充說明就行政院的相關的政策會報是由行政院來召集由行政院的副院長來擔任召集人那他等於比較像是一個副首長層級的一個工作協調會一個協調會報政策協調會報但是他雖然是每年召開一次在每年召開一次以外還有很多工作層級的會議不斷的在召開"},{"start":11920.246,"end":11931.927,"text":"所以不是只有一年開一次會我的意思是一年開一次會是針對政策面向由副首長來討論但是針對工作計畫面向不斷的在召開會議來進行跨部會的溝通跟協調"},{"start":11934.861,"end":11939.823,"text":"那我接下來就是還有一個問題就是針對無人機威脅問題想要來跟局長討論一下你還記得幾個月前彈簧刀的無人機其實鬼出神出鬼沒的嘛又很難防禦啊讓他在俄烏戰爭中一戰成名但因此獲得台灣軍方的高度的重視然後中科院甚至也研發出台灣版的彈簧刀但不知道局長有沒有發現"},{"start":11959.733,"end":11972.296,"text":"最近這些無人機,台灣大無人機其實討論已經消失了反而是東歐戰場上外流出來的相關影片又回到雙方大量運用的小型商用無人機進行攻擊那請問局長你知道嗎?對,這確實是要注意的一個發展的趨勢那我們在談關鍵基礎設施的防護那怎麼樣對於可能的威脅來源不同的樣態要能夠事先的來掌握"},{"start":11985.92,"end":12008.469,"text":"就無人機的部分來講因為它現在的技術已經越來越擴散了很多國家或非國家的行為者或組織也都擁有這種無人機的技術可以來發動攻擊所以可能我們未來在評估國家的關鍵基礎設施防護過程當中怎麼樣來面對空中的這種可能的威脅加強對於空中的防護會變得非常的重要而這個議題的層級已經不單單是所謂的關鍵基礎設施的防護了"},{"start":12012.671,"end":12013.051,"text":"其實剛才討論的是商用無人機"},{"start":12029.266,"end":12040.415,"text":"其實它是比較便宜又比較快速大量製造所以其實消耗補充非常的容易而且也是非常好的改裝所以一般的民眾其實就可以進行這種飛行的訓練短時間內都可以投入前線使用甚至可以同時用大量便宜的無人機對高價值目標發出了風群攻擊"},{"start":12049.062,"end":12070.26,"text":"因為到現在二屋戰爭雙方來講都還沒有一種有效的防疫的手段所以因為商用無人機有幾個特性無論是定翼機或是旋翼機還有很多多軸穿越機其實只要有對機電相關知識要如何改裝其實不是很難的但是台灣內部如果有新的人士他們想要決定對台灣關鍵基礎設施展開攻擊的話其實也是很難防禦"},{"start":12076.505,"end":12081.149,"text":"所以其實這些面對的小型無人機出現一定會有事前難以偵測還有事發難以察覺意圖還有事後又難以追查來源這三大反制困難所以想請問局長就是我問目前對無人機有沒有關鍵基礎設施這些威脅有哪一些我們是偵測和反制的手段呢可以簡單說明對這些行政院應該有在做相關的評估那但就商用無人機來講就我們國安單位國安局來講"},{"start":12106.508,"end":12132.031,"text":"那在我們的特勤維安常常要面對這樣的問題包括國家的重大慶典比如說520的重大總統就職我們都部署可能的無人機攻擊針對商用無人機來講我們透過一般的干擾反制槍是可以來處理的因為它的無人機的遙控的頻率頻寬是固定的所以我們就要鎖定相關的頻寬在無人機可能來襲的方向做好部署的話要遇擊落或反制迫降這都沒有技術上的問題"},{"start":12132.631,"end":12133.772,"text":"對,因為其實我最近有注意到一個實際的案例,來印證我剛才的說法"},{"start":12152.202,"end":12165.627,"text":"就是去年5月有兩架無人機在莫斯科的克林姆林宮上面爆炸雖然沒有對建築造成嚴重的損害但是攻擊的畫面傳到全世界之後不僅成功的激勵民主陣營"},{"start":12168.188,"end":12194.954,"text":"傳到整個世界的時候其實成功的激勵民主陣營對烏克蘭的信心也對莫斯科的民眾其實大家都是陷入恐慌的局面這兩架無人機其實利用難以偵測的特性躲過俄羅斯層層的防空系統的搜索成功鑽進了俄羅斯的政治的核心所以其實這個無人機的意圖攻擊之後烏克蘭也不承認是他們主動攻擊還是俄羅斯也拿不出證據來"},{"start":12196.374,"end":12199.536,"text":"所以這樣就突然我們想到說那我們來換一個場景我們來想看看請問如果今天潛伏在台灣的第五縱隊在陳平的時期自己改造了大疆無人機那裝個小型的爆炸物然後直接飛到總統府的上方在國旗旁邊引爆那請問局長我們目前有沒有辦法及早預警還有有沒有辦法判斷意圖還有沒有辦法做到即時反應還是解決這些威脅呢"},{"start":12224.215,"end":12249.649,"text":"這沒有問題這也是我剛剛為什麼在舉例的時候特別提到我們的特勤維安那包括博愛特區的重點區域我們都有部署無人機的反制的裝置那特別是在重大的國家慶典我剛剛會特別提到重大國家慶典是因為現場可能會有匯集數萬人人在那現場所以怎麼樣來避免來自於空中無人機的攻擊我們都有重重部署包括各個的制高點一有無人機接觸的話絕對可以把它擊落"},{"start":12250.373,"end":12252.775,"text":"最後本席再想跟局長討論一下台灣目前有針對電磁脈衝攻擊的防護的問題以軍方來說國防部其實早就已經意識到電磁脈衝的威脅2000年初就已經執行了脈護計畫"},{"start":12273.314,"end":12280.601,"text":"那針對目前來看臺灣的公部門其實很大部分的關鍵基礎設施對於電磁脈衝防護和復原其實都是缺乏應對措施的其實這是一個非常危險的一件事情2019年美國國會公布了一個電磁脈衝核彈攻擊"},{"start":12291.09,"end":12295.672,"text":"方案暨聯合軍種網路站報告：裡面就有警告中共會在台海戰爭的中間使用電磁脈衝武器讓台灣全島都陷入黑暗那想要請問局長就是說我們目前有沒有針對電磁脈衝向所有的政府部門還有民間企業說明潛在的風險還有"},{"start":12313.558,"end":12334.528,"text":"到目前為止除了國軍之外政府單位針對電磁脈衝攻擊做了哪些防護的措施?國安演練又做了哪些內容?因為這個我們辦公室好像都找不到這些相關的內容對他這部分比較像是剛剛也跟委員提到了像是一個國防層面的一個應處的一個作為"},{"start":12335.488,"end":12360.136,"text":"對於比較殺傷力大的攻擊武器不管是電磁脈衝還是委員剛剛在投影片也稍微提到的石墨彈那他們所造成我們的通訊裝備的傷害會非常非常的大所以對於這樣的一個發展的趨勢我們會在內部的討論來多多的注意那也要結合到跟國防部之間的合作我們剛剛在書面報告也提到了關鍵基礎設施的防護必須要有平時跟暫時緊密的一個結合"},{"start":12362.717,"end":12379.551,"text":"那緊密結合過程當中各種的可能的劇本都有可能發生怎麼樣來針對不同的劇本來做一些想定來加強各部門之間的通力合作包括國防部門政府還有民間的合作會非常非常重要也謝謝委員提醒這麼重要的問題謝謝局長謝謝謝謝林委員"},{"start":12389.771,"end":12401.781,"text":"請鄭正前委員、鄭正前、鄭正前委員不在請吳思瑤、吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在請何新淳、何新淳、何新淳委員不在請邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在請羅志強、羅志強、羅志強委員不在請游浩、游浩、游浩委員不在請賴士寶、賴士寶、賴士寶委員不在請鄭天才、鄭天才、鄭天才委員不在"},{"start":12413.331,"end":12441.353,"text":"今天已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束本日會議有黃仁委員、邱志偉委員、羅志強委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關以書面與兩週內答覆本日委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料則亦請相關單位以書面與兩週內提供委員另約定期限則從期鎖定"},{"start":12443.334,"end":12446.517,"text":"本日會議到此結束 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敬請各位委員指教 謝謝"},{"start":2193.331,"end":2200.696,"text":"好 謝謝 非常謝謝主委的報告我們繼續請交通部的副署長也來做一些報告好嗎 謝謝"},{"start":2209.757,"end":2226.284,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位先生女士今天應邀致貴委員會就針對陸方開放大陸觀光來台具體回應及作為進行報告那敬請各位委員來指教首先在說明兩岸旅遊的現況陸方在108年8月1號暫停來台自由行"},{"start":2230.766,"end":2249.208,"text":"在1號陸方也分批恢復138個國家及港澳出境旅遊但迄今是沒有開放來台的團體旅遊及自由行在4月18號大陸文旅部表示將率先恢復不見居民到馬祖旅遊"},{"start":2250.069,"end":2271.306,"text":"並在平坦到臺灣的海上客運直航之後,恢復福建居民赴臺團體旅遊這是以附加條件的方式回應我方全面恢復兩岸觀光組團雙向交流的建議為了配合防疫,我方在109年1月24日公告履行社暫停接待大陸觀光團及組團"},{"start":2272.587,"end":2272.607,"text":"致詢議員"},{"start":2296.292,"end":2312.839,"text":"另外,陸委會在109年2月10日暫停小三通客運傳播往來,在112年1月7日小三通客運復航,後續循序恢復小三通客運常態化。"},{"start":2313.519,"end":2332.793,"text":"那我想在我方恢復兩岸團體旅遊的規劃方面那第一是陸委會在112年的8月24號會同交通部、經濟部公布恢復兩岸觀光旅遊及放寬入籍人事來台商務旅遊之相關規劃那是依照對等的原則循序"},{"start":2333.533,"end":2362.218,"text":"恢復兩岸團體的旅遊並以一個月為準備期是陸方的回應在確定實施的日期陸會前已經邀請相關的機關進行準備我方準備工作均與就緒原規劃113年3月恢復國人赴陸團體旅遊因為陸方持續不開放來台旅遊等等因素以損害國家利益經過跨部會的協商考量情勢的變更進行政策的調整"},{"start":2363.258,"end":2389.064,"text":"所以我們也責請旅行業在113年的2月7號起禁止招攬附入的旅行團那為了這個降低衝擊剩有三個月的緩衝期已經對於成團的這個旅行業於113年到3月到5月出發者可能可以出團那6月之後出發的團體可併置3月到5月或者是改往其他國家旅遊或者是退配"},{"start":2390.564,"end":2413.886,"text":"這想同步可以保障旅行業與民眾的權益我想兩岸恢復健康有序的交流一直是政府的一個立場為推動恢復兩岸團體旅遊陸委會在112年8月24日所公布的相關規劃是依照對等的原則循序恢復兩岸團體旅遊本部配合執行以上報告敬請各位委員執教謝謝"},{"start":2416.564,"end":2442.158,"text":"其他單位的報告我們請委員自行參閱並刊登公報現在進行詢答委員質詢前我們做以上幾點宣告本會委員發言時間4分鐘必要的時間延長2分鐘非本會委員發言時間是4分鐘上午10點半截止發言登記臨時提案的部分我們截止提出的時間是上午10點在本會委員質詢完畢之後我們來處理請問各位委員有沒有意見"},{"start":2443.663,"end":2448.186,"text":"好沒有意見我們現在就請登記第一位的蘇巧慧委員來質詢好謝謝主席我們請邱主委還有我們的副署長請邱主委還有副署長謝謝"},{"start":2466.465,"end":2476.515,"text":"主委好 主委今天是0501 5月1號那我記得我們有很相關的題目幾乎一樣是在討論復入旅遊團停交的決策過程與後續影響評估也是主委來報告的嘛 那是什麼時候啊3月嘛對不對 03 06 差不多在一個多月前"},{"start":2488.587,"end":2505.856,"text":"那時候我們就是就張偉很用心用這樣的這個委員會的時間排了一場復入旅遊團的停招在你詳細的來報告過程旅遊和影響那時候你就很清楚的跟全社會報告跟各委員報告我們做這個決定的理由是什麼"},{"start":2507.036,"end":2522.087,"text":"我記得是兩個嘛第一個就是基於平等互惠兩邊的政策不管是在方方面面包括旅遊政策兩邊中國台灣都應該是基於平等互惠來執行第二個是在前不久的時候在0306之前"},{"start":2524.449,"end":2540.707,"text":"就是在我們做了這個附中停招之前最後壓垮一根稻草最後壓垮駱駝的稻草就是M503改變嘛主委我的印象沒有錯吧你的理由也是這樣對不對這是因素之一對嘛好那我想請問這樣還不到兩個月的時間請問這兩項理由有改變了嗎"},{"start":2544.891,"end":2566.43,"text":"現在氣氛有改變了嗎?改變了什麼?這個4月28號我們陸委會的這個新聞稿已經說明很清楚了我想大陸用這樣一個負條件而且限制區域這個完全不符合雙方所原來期待的對等原則我想這個陸委會的記者那個新聞稿已經說得很清楚了"},{"start":2567.27,"end":2575.254,"text":"各位這段期間你剛剛說的還是結果是它開了一個有限制的範圍旅遊但事實上如果以我們兩岸的氛圍來講沒有啊 戰機天天飛、戰艦天天繞而且連當時說是M503東移之外現在連W航線也通通都開啟了這只有變本加厲這哪有兩岸緩和唯一的緩和可能是上個禮拜由副總召帶著幾位委員去到了中國"},{"start":2595.683,"end":2603.332,"text":"然後拿回來了一些所謂的好棒棒的這些會台措施嘛對不對所以主委我再跟你確認一下我做了一張表格在比較中國跟台灣兩方面的自由行跟團客我們的比較看看對不對啦"},{"start":2614.244,"end":2618.588,"text":"我們台灣呢早就已經開放了附中自由行喔自由行我們是開的那中國呢這現在都還沒有開捏到現在他沒有開自由行來台灣啊現在這次他說啊我來開一個福建民眾到馬祖旅遊啦這是他所謂他將來現在可能快要做的事情"},{"start":2634.423,"end":2653.607,"text":"不然的話他現在是一個自由行都沒有啊好那台灣的團客是什麼台灣我們是本來已經做好了準備3到5月本來有這麼多人4千團10萬人可以附中了可是因為平等互惠完全沒有嘛所以我們才說先暫停那他現在說我又有條件推動福建民眾組團"},{"start":2659.648,"end":2660.189,"text":"我們新聞稿已經說明很清楚了"},{"start":2681.789,"end":2708.507,"text":"很清楚嘛但我覺得我這張表比你還要更清楚我覺得我這張表比你還要更清楚這哪一個眼睛可以看到這樣是平等互惠不過啦我是這樣覺得我覺得兩岸之間確實是應該要有善意的交流我覺得其實誰先遞出橄欖枝這個沒有關係只要是善意的堆疊其實對兩岸人民都是好事因為沒有人要看到戰爭嘛所以我現在是這樣覺得啦"},{"start":2710.049,"end":2723.726,"text":"副總召去換到了一個當時我們算過2019年一年是6500人到馬祖去玩我們用這樣的數字來算好了如果一個人消費一萬的話就是大概6500萬一年"},{"start":2727.29,"end":2734.335,"text":"一年6500萬對馬祖觀光的投資換到了三天頭版的新聞所有的媒體都在討論 立法院還不斷連今天都加開委員會討論他的政策 我覺得是很划算的副董真的厲害 真的我們要佩服他的手腕那我覺得基於平等互惠 我想建議陸委會和觀光局"},{"start":2753.388,"end":2776.981,"text":"我覺得我們也要,觀光署對不起你升格了,我也要建議立委會跟觀光署,我們是不是也同樣開放我們廈門的居民組團到福建,廈門組團到金門去旅遊,我覺得我們可以先從這第一步開始啊,而且我們還可以再加碼,我們連金門都可以組團,阿你有沒有遞出善意?"},{"start":2778.021,"end":2778.601,"text":"我想委員的建議會給未來的新任人選做很好"},{"start":2801.363,"end":2810.786,"text":"我覺得不錯啊我們基於平等互惠嘛他開福建居民最了解廈門的福建居民組團來廈門玩那我們就開馬祖不是我剛剛說錯了應該是他開福建居民最熟悉那一代風情的福建居民來我們的馬祖玩那我們就開馬祖的居民到福建組團去玩啊我們加碼我們金門也不錯啊"},{"start":2829.574,"end":2855.804,"text":"我覺得其實兩岸要有創新的思維這樣子善意互相堆疊其實路才能越走越寬而且我覺得我上一次就已經質詢過了我認為這個附中旅遊因為停照的相關國內業者要有配套措施這個我覺得時間的關係還來不及問你我希望這一點我等一下會有臨時提案所以希望觀光署這邊可以有更多的解釋謝謝"},{"start":2857.225,"end":2862.589,"text":"主席、各位官員、各位委員、大家早安、大家好是不是請邱太三主委也請邱主委張委員好"},{"start":2882.973,"end":2901.331,"text":"主委早安今天是五一勞動節那大家都非常辛苦來這個開會非常辛苦主委也非常辛苦那其實我們國民黨各位委員第一個當然覺得主委非常辛苦可是也對我們陸委會這三年多來將近快四年了他所對大陸方面的這個互動跟良好的互動"},{"start":2902.412,"end":2918.494,"text":"提出質疑可是本席又接時間的關係我相信大家對兩岸和平尤其臺灣經濟繁榮是一直在努力打拼首先請問這個主委的部分現在目前從平潭到臺北台中的航班有沒有可能復航"},{"start":2919.275,"end":2921.456,"text":"現在有沒有在討論復航的可能性因為要跟主委報告現在這個班機也在飛貨運也在啟動為什麼客運的部分為什麼現在要限制"},{"start":2939.227,"end":2962.038,"text":"我講客運這個涉及到原來就是有防疫的問題可是主委您講得非常清楚可是現在大家都沒戴口罩都沒有防疫啊第二個是到底客運量夠不夠的問題啦過去我跟委員講這個還是要跟你說清楚過去呢開這個呢大概大陸是海峽號我們這邊叫沒錯就是海峽號但是我們的利納輪已經收起來了因為根本沒有客源"},{"start":2963.413,"end":2964.293,"text":"我們都會做各種現實狀況．有在討論的嗎?"},{"start":2984.464,"end":3009.086,"text":"所以我們每次都會來跟各位報告說到底現在交流有多少?人流有多少?經貿有多少?那第二個問題針對我們過去一直來討論就是說限制大陸旅客來台人次每天2000人因為過去我們都知道在頂峰的時候那個大陸旅客來台灣大概都三四百萬人一天大概就兩三萬人現在只開放大陸旅客來台2000人有沒有機會把這個部分給開放?"},{"start":3010.727,"end":3030.461,"text":"我想從我們2010年開始開放陸客開始一開始就設定是應該是2000還3000人後來按照他的需求不斷的運作的結果增加到4000、5000所以我們也是一樣因為疫後希望能夠健康上去的交流所以我們用2019年的數字"},{"start":3032.742,"end":3036.063,"text":"這兩個都是有關於大陸旅客到台灣的航班跟旅客人數的問題那第三個我要請問主委主委你有對我正面的回覆"},{"start":3053.53,"end":3075.279,"text":"那第三個是不是可以取消5月31號台灣的旅客到大陸這個組團的進團令是不是可以取消因為現在大陸已經有遞出橄欖枝雖然這個橄欖枝很小可是還是橄欖枝好不好這個恐怕這個橄欖枝有刺喔那至於你提到的5月31號我想這個是新政府他們要去做決定的啦所以我沒有辦法在這邊代打"},{"start":3077.452,"end":3105.529,"text":"還有一個非常重要的問題因為之前我們一直在討論金下事件金下事件因為現在整個的新聞已經退燒了可是就我了解當時陸方的漁船上有四名的大陸籍的漁民當時四名都落水兩名已經救回來生還兩名罹難那我想要請問主委知不知道現在兩名罹難的人的遺體現在是放在哪裡在金門"},{"start":3106.397,"end":3130.282,"text":"對,所以這就是我現在不能接受,而且是很前在全國人民所嘩然的居然從2月14號發生驚嚇事件這兩名的遺難者的遺體現在還在金門那讓所有這個被害者的家屬我相信在陸方的被害者家屬是沒有辦法接受的因為我認為這件事情要有同理心啊從2月14號到現在我沒有發文給他,他不要領啊"},{"start":3132.103,"end":3159.696,"text":"我覺得主委你這件事講的時候要非常小心,要發言給他他不要...絕對是這樣子的,很簡單,因為檢察官就問家屬你對於死亡的原因,因為這個會涉及到後面所以我認為說第一個我認為說因為台灣的人民未來如果在大陸發生相對應的事情的時候,如果遺難者的遺體還是趕快發回去給遺難者的家屬對遺難者的家屬的心理的造成的傷害我可以幫你們安排"},{"start":3160.436,"end":3177.387,"text":"主委你上次跟我講說赴大陸旅行你也要我安排這次這個受害者家屬也要我安排也要我來協助安排罹難者家屬來理家屬只要他對死亡的原因有意見的話那檢察會真的2月14號今天是5月1號已經罹難者的遺體還算在金門我相信雙方要遵照這個"},{"start":3182.97,"end":3204.366,"text":"是家屬對死亡的原因不願意表示意見這跟我得到的資訊是不太一樣的我當然知道要怎麼處理所以他如果真的沒有意見領回隨時都可以安排好 謝謝主委的分享因為這個大家一開兩講應該很多人都不知道現在的狀況也都已經送回去了所以本席才要在這邊請出疑問對於家屬過多的干擾讓他對本來沒有什麼太大爭議的死亡原因他也要有意見"},{"start":3213.393,"end":3233.453,"text":"最後主席再多給我一分鐘的時間因為其實今天邱太山主委本來9點半就有事情要離開了其實本席對您是非常的敬重的因為你過去有擔任過你是一位名律師也擔任過多屆的立法委員也擔任過我們台灣的法務部長"},{"start":3235.835,"end":3256.284,"text":"尤其其實你對我們晚輩其實都非常的禮遇也常常跟我們一些經驗的分享而且你的這個政黨顏色其實是不深的所以最後我是不是給你一段時間不管是對針對陸委會主委的這個角度是不是給台灣未來的兩岸的政策及未來賴政府未來的兩岸"},{"start":3256.844,"end":3257.004,"text":"張志倫委員質詢"},{"start":3286.929,"end":3303.914,"text":"主委家屬不願意領回去可能會造成以後他們一些官司上的問題所以您剛剛這樣回應我又有一點失望雙方都應該要把這些爭議點給講清楚好不好謝謝"},{"start":3305.114,"end":3305.854,"text":"我們繼續請麥一貞委員來質詢謝謝"},{"start":3343.204,"end":3345.085,"text":"主席、陸委會、觀光署主席、陸委會"},{"start":3357.028,"end":3361.053,"text":"好,要請教我們陸委會,前陣子就是我有問到觀光的問題,我們的主委說中方要需要釋出善意,我們這邊的話才要去就是要"},{"start":3372.665,"end":3394.392,"text":"要對應所以我們台灣都要聽大陸的指令因為他釋出善意我們就我們不釋出我們就等就這樣變成我們的老百姓就要等等大陸所以我們要去勾夾大陸不是這樣子吧所以我們現在目前已經宣布說開放海空30個城市"},{"start":3396.332,"end":3424.034,"text":"直航跟福建到馬祖的觀光路線這樣看起來兩岸的觀光應該是有機會破冰這個時候我國的態度相當重要而交通部跟陸委會一直強調要有3億往來才能開放那麼我們中方已經釋出3億了我國的團客要去大陸是否有機會重新開放"},{"start":3424.914,"end":3440.992,"text":"先跟委員報告這個可能稍微有一點錯誤因為大陸目前在前幾天宣布的是指開放福建的居民到馬祖而不是30個城市直航到跟"},{"start":3442.878,"end":3456.949,"text":"第二 基本上我們在去年的時候我們就除了已經15個有定期航班以外我們還有13個可以包機的航點但是到今天為止都沒有人申請"},{"start":3458.307,"end":3479.412,"text":"是大陸沒有人申請還是台灣?我們這邊連台商也沒有申請因為我們也跟台商講如果以台商這個協會為中心的話所有在大陸的我們的國人呢他們如果想要包機回來那也是一個很好的方法方案嘛對不對但是到現在為止13個行點都沒有人申請包機"},{"start":3480.285,"end":3508.762,"text":"好,我們是開放什麼時候到什麼時候到現在有宣傳嗎?團友更多的知道嗎?去年就宣布了啊好,所以我們是有開放就是團客我們在議事的跟台商會長的這個所謂的餐敘或者是活動裡面我們都一再的告訴他們那我也跟好幾個台商會長講說就以你那邊做聯絡點嘛你譬如說每個每個月的第一個最後一個禮拜五如果所有在大陸的國人"},{"start":3510.523,"end":3518.207,"text":"那要回來的話以你這裡為聯絡中心嘛那你如果累積到一定的量你就可以跟韓國公司說就是報紙是有這麼說啦所以說我們已經開放馬祖福建的雙邊的旅遊但是我們中國人這邊也希望說來台灣觀光嘛所以呢就是很多旅遊業因為現在我們新住民也很多人考就是那個導遊導覽的人員"},{"start":3538.317,"end":3543.661,"text":"所以他們就一直說今天就沒工作了就是要來幫忙所以協助這一塊希望我們解除禁團令讓更多的觀光客過來的話我們才還有工作所以希望說這個部分大家是不是可以開放還有陸客有沒有說就是解除這樣子剛才我們的委員有問我們的"},{"start":3565.174,"end":3570.696,"text":"大陸到現在為止2019年8月1號自由行大陸的人士要到台灣來他那個禁令到現在還在第二個大陸縱使在去年開始開放他們的國人可以到世界各國或地區去旅遊138個沒有台灣"},{"start":3589.369,"end":3594.851,"text":"所以他們現在禁止他們的人到我們這邊來所以4月28號他們才稍微小額度的說福建的居民可以去馬祖這是他們第一次的開放所以他們第一次開放我們這邊也在開放嘛是不是"},{"start":3606.774,"end":3614.521,"text":"我想我們都相關單位在做相關的評估跟研議當中啦為我們自己的作法我們期待還是我們在去年宣布的24號宣布雙方對等來開放是最好我們希望的是全面性的對等這才有意義你如果在那邊支持"},{"start":3631.594,"end":3632.115,"text":"如果從統計數字上來看倒未必"},{"start":3647.037,"end":3653.321,"text":"雙翁如果真的是對付開放的話基本上雙翁的應該是差不多還有地方的旅館還有我們就是做導覽的人員他們都需要工作所以一直禁止的話真的是很多人都沒飯吃了沒工作很多旅館也倒了很多旅行社也倒了很多要去不斷的去鼓勵大家去考導遊"},{"start":3675.913,"end":3692.003,"text":"但是到最後是沒有工作所以這部分我們希望就是說我們的透過就是小三通還有說請主委說我們兩岸直航的開放有沒有說行程、時程"},{"start":3693.544,"end":3713.325,"text":"我們都一直在檢視我剛剛不是講了相關的單位不管交通部也好經濟部也好他們都會跟兩岸每一個階段的這個整體的變化我們會去做這樣的一個政策上的參考這個請誰來執政都一樣是是是希望就是我們說要開放用兩邊的話就是我們希望我們台灣"},{"start":3715.387,"end":3715.807,"text":"我們就釋出了"},{"start":3753.478,"end":3755.898,"text":"賴慧珍委員．謝謝邱主委．接下來有請高金素梅召委"},{"start":3772.071,"end":3773.333,"text":"請經濟處的葉處長,還有海基會的蔡副秘書長。"},{"start":3790.165,"end":3796.367,"text":"主計處在4月29日公布了110年家庭財富分配統計統計全台灣家庭貧富之間的差距已經達到了"},{"start":3815.015,"end":3815.516,"text":"主席主委"},{"start":3829.907,"end":3836.894,"text":"我想貧富的這個差距確實是各國都非常關注的我們大概可以看出幾個趨勢大概資本主義的國家貧富的差距一定比社會主義的國家還高"},{"start":3846.343,"end":3872.637,"text":"第二,全球化的結果,恐怕這個必然會加劇所以你是同意他的說法嗎?不是,這個基本上必然會加劇但是呢,當然各國採取的政策是不是有效或有用,我不曉得那我們大概可以看,相較於全球化的結果大概資本主義發達的國家,它的差距會越大你倒是提到了一個很重要的問題我不同意這是高度自由經濟發展的必然結果"},{"start":3873.497,"end":3873.757,"text":"您認為您家的開銷夠嗎?"},{"start":3898.503,"end":3909.318,"text":"當然坦白講每一個人的家庭情況不一定一樣像我這麼節儉的人當然是夠啦但是重點在後面我當律師的時候大概都是這個20到23萬之間因為你節儉所以夠"},{"start":3914.625,"end":3937.211,"text":"所以,您不向主計處公布排名後20%的家庭,它的平均負債是405萬。所以,我完全不同意主計處所說的這種說法。台灣社會的貧富不均,真的不是什麼必然的結果,它根本就是人為的政策惡果。我舉一個,台灣半導體的產業來講,"},{"start":3939.952,"end":3943.879,"text":"今年他們的產值是達到了新台幣5兆政府對這個半導體產業要電給電"},{"start":3947.574,"end":3951.376,"text":"政府給了他們所有的政策給他們所有的優惠但是獲利的80%卻是被外資拿走了"},{"start":3970.606,"end":3976.773,"text":"好 我們再回頭來看一下我們台灣的觀光產業按照2023年的產值我們是7500億然後根據交通部觀光局的統計觀光業的從業人力2023年是22萬4618人副署長 對吧好 麻煩你也上台一下 謝謝"},{"start":3993.25,"end":4019.416,"text":"這項產業大部分都是服務業就是剛剛麥玉珍講到的最基層也有這個導覽人員他們沒有得到像半導產業那樣的政府的支持他們經歷過疫情的衝擊他們期待政府能夠兌現選舉之前的開放大陸觀光的選舉支票可是呢又被民進黨政府跳票了民進黨政府一直在講"},{"start":4020.436,"end":4035.669,"text":"等待對岸的善意達到他所謂的對等尊嚴的政治訴求因此就不惜綁架了這個觀光產業把這些觀光產業的人當作人肉盾牌當作炮灰"},{"start":4036.289,"end":4061.06,"text":"但是這個被民進黨政府搞的一夜一席的觀光產業的背後是22萬個家庭的生計喔今天我聽說好像我們觀光產業的理事長也有來他們也非常關心今天召委排的這一次的這個說明所以為什麼那麼重要因為我剛剛提到有22萬個家庭的生計"},{"start":4062.821,"end":4085.187,"text":"這22萬人的聲音難道也是所謂的自由經濟發展的必然結果嗎我剛剛看到的這些政策您也同意我說有的時候是政策的問題當然不是我認為這是民進黨他們非常惡意的政策製造出來的貧窮惡果觀光的人口數觀光副署長在觀光副署長從我們2016年的44萬人降到22萬人"},{"start":4092.469,"end":4118.301,"text":"所以我們現在幾乎有一半的觀光產業人口的家庭可能淪為了主計處那個所謂的20%的負債家庭我們也看到非常多的新聞非常多的報導這些家庭根本是活不下去了所以我在這裡要呼籲我們的政府還有我們台上面的大官們我們真的不要忘記了我們的薪水"},{"start":4119.813,"end":4132.404,"text":"也有這22萬家庭繳出去的稅金所以如果我們的政府想要操弄善意而沒有得到對岸回應的時候你們的惡意就會讓這個觀光業的22萬個家庭"},{"start":4138.869,"end":4141.571,"text":"平復不均不是什麼自由經濟發展的必然結果"},{"start":4152.026,"end":4174.617,"text":"這是政府惡意操弄政策的結果當我們拿著所謂人民的這些血汗錢或者是看著人民已經要活不下去了這些人民他們是會憤怒的啦到時候他們燒起來絕對不是現在我們打到的什麼弊端什麼弊案然後什麼光電幫股票可以從他們資本額10萬現在到達這麼高"},{"start":4178.439,"end":4204.091,"text":"我想那會影響的是你們的政權喔好 主委我就兩個面向的回答了第一個我想任何一個國家他確實他必須會有他的產業政策也就是說他到底要發展哪一些產業那這個當然有得有失啦你強勢的你當然希望就像中國他認為他的電動車會強所以他高度的在補助電動車業其他的產業也一樣"},{"start":4204.691,"end":4218.687,"text":"所以這個各國到底他怎麼去決定我們對半導體產業也是特別優惠啊我不是經濟部,我也不是國歌會主委我當然同意在這個執行的過程中一定會產生偏差這個偏差怎麼再去把它調整回來所以我剛剛講到"},{"start":4219.628,"end":4245.546,"text":"所以我剛剛講到半導體產業他們有32萬人口但是獲利的80%全部都是外資不見得是我們本國的人獲利可是我們的政府卻給他這麼多的優惠藥店給電藥水給水然後稅金又特別的優惠所以端看我們的政府到底在這個所謂的政策上面是偏袒哪一方很顯然我剛剛以觀光業為主"},{"start":4246.727,"end":4266.724,"text":"我們的觀光業本來從平均有44萬人一直到現在22萬人我們少了一半然後這一半又因為沒有開放兩岸之間的觀光所以造成這些人又活不下去所以主委今天才會我排這樣子的專案來跟您來做交流啊我們是不是趕快要回傳來看看這22萬人的生計"},{"start":4273.029,"end":4290.796,"text":"有工作可以做是要大陸趕快放他的人過來啊他到現在才放馬祖而已啊一年6500個人一天不到18個而且只有馬祖地區你這次去應該是要求說那你應該給台灣這22人有工作這22人才感謝你"},{"start":4292.136,"end":4295.378,"text":"所以陸委會成立的目的跟宗旨就是希望能夠兩岸溝通"},{"start":4316.11,"end":4322.756,"text":"您作為這個位置最主要的就是好好去溝通而不是一直在這邊講說那邊不是出善意啊所以我最後我要大聲的講我們的民進黨政府包括主委您剛剛的態度你們口口聲聲一直說要等待對岸的善意我回過頭來我看到的是"},{"start":4341.072,"end":4341.232,"text":"接下來請張宏祿委員質詢"},{"start":4379.814,"end":4401.052,"text":"關於時尚網路委員,您要主委留下嗎?還是不用?好,謝謝。好,非常謝謝,謝謝主委。希望您保重身體,也希望您在卸下公職之後,能夠對兩岸的問題能夠更深入的來探討,跟做好的先鋒,好嗎?謝謝。"},{"start":4403.052,"end":4404.413,"text":"副主委跟副署長"},{"start":4424.79,"end":4439.486,"text":"我想先請問一下臺灣是不是一個主權獨立我們有自己的人民政府主權的一個政府是是一個政治實體對不對是沒有錯那中國呢是不是也是一個"},{"start":4442.977,"end":4465.456,"text":"國際上都這麼認同對啦我們就撇開政治啦我們先把這個講我們撇開政治如果這個兩個都是一個政治實體我們就像在商業的談判一樣互相不管你公司大或我公司小要合作要共榮是不是要對互相的條件能夠接受商業才可以做要平等互惠"},{"start":4466.254,"end":4468.136,"text":"我們當然是歡迎全世界的客人都到台灣來,包括中國大陸的客人"},{"start":4491.578,"end":4515.576,"text":"所以,簡單說一句,我們準備好了,只要你中國說你的團客可以來,我們馬上就可以接待了,馬上就可以處理了,是不是這樣?是,是,我們在去年的8月24號公布那個方案之後,就是主動的事出善意說我們都準備好了,那在9月底的時候,我們有全部相關單位的工作都做好了。"},{"start":4516.419,"end":4543.308,"text":"副處長 是不是這樣是 包委員 那我想我們在112年的9月針對這個導遊跟領隊 不管是要副陸領團回答重點就好了就是已經完成相關的訓練都已經訓練完成那比如說像那個緊急通報的這個窗口或者是說旅行社的這樣的資訊的更新我們在去年9月已經完成對 所以現在陸委會跟"},{"start":4544.568,"end":4570.634,"text":"交通部已經很明確的在立法院講我們台灣的立場我們就是都準備好了只要你中國開放我們馬上就可以接待了對不對對所以我們的立場是歡迎中國的團客來台灣對不對對沒錯嘛現在的問題是中國沒有開放是不是這樣"},{"start":4572.498,"end":4590.444,"text":"一直以來都是這樣那最近有說了一個小口就開了一大堆那個6500個人這個有開跟沒開一樣阿對不對你去人家一間大餐廳阿只給人家要一杯白開水阿你要這樣的餐廳你要開嗎有任何對方的回應我們都是樂見"},{"start":4600.594,"end":4617.803,"text":"樂見是一件事情瞭解的勝利跟我們原來預期的跟我們原來希望的差太多了我只有一個所以我剛剛的前提就是說要平等互惠他們如果開放多少我們是不是相對開放多少"},{"start":4621.392,"end":4630.186,"text":"這個應該不會有任何抵觸吧?不會,因為剛剛很多衛委員也提到就是說我們要同時兼顧凹棒跟硬棒業者他們的工作權益"},{"start":4631.696,"end":4632.677,"text":"英磅才是我們的重點"},{"start":4654.578,"end":4677.333,"text":"我覺得英邦奧邦都是重點你這種說法我也不同意這個都是重點只是說我說一個國家跟國家對等的談判你開放多少我開放多少我覺得這個是不是一個最基本的原則這個原則是確定的所以我就覺得說啦其實你們要說一句"},{"start":4678.374,"end":4693.398,"text":"我們沒有阻擋入客來台灣沒錯我們沒有阻擋是他們還沒開放是我做這個結論是 對不對正確正確嘛 對不對那所以這次要雙方去溝通嘛 對不對我們溝通其實持續都有在進行中"},{"start":4698.666,"end":4699.086,"text":"是,我們都準備好了"},{"start":4717.416,"end":4733.959,"text":"對嘛,所以我覺得很簡單嘛,要跟外界說我們都準備好了,我們就是,我們的態度是希望你來,是你自己,是中國自己設限不讓他來的嘛,對不對?對,是陸方在設限"},{"start":4734.48,"end":4753.359,"text":"沒有錯嘛 對不對所以我覺得這個是一個很簡單的要跟大家說清楚其實這個問題沒有那麼複雜啦沒有那麼複雜啦我們台灣就是已經敞開大門了是你中國自己把門關起來的你自己現在只開放一個小小的馬祖而已是不是這樣沒錯"},{"start":4754.64,"end":4770.345,"text":"對嘛 所以要說清楚嘛 讓台灣的人都知道嘛 要讓全世界都知道嘛 對不對中國是用這個當成一個手段 對不對 那我們台灣其實沒有這麼多政治 是你自己不開放"},{"start":4771.186,"end":4771.246,"text":"謝謝張宏羅委員謝謝"},{"start":4796.198,"end":4808.225,"text":"副市長別忘記你們準備是5月份要開放的後來是你們把它取消了所以才有很多人這個點怎麼都不講是不是好接著我們請李博業委員謝謝我們請李副主委還有還有觀光署副署長謝謝"},{"start":4828.71,"end":4851.598,"text":"委員好我們大陸事務委員會其實就是常常有跟這個大陸方面那做一些交涉那做一些談判相關的事務主要的工作就是兩岸的工作那所以對於對方的思維你應該也是非常清楚我來這樣講我這樣描述一下你有意見你可以回覆我"},{"start":4852.881,"end":4862.826,"text":"這一次428中國方面來開放福建的人那可以組團從平潭飛台灣這個叫做這個還沒開這個還沒有對"},{"start":4867.899,"end":4886.841,"text":"他4月28日宣布的這個是福建的人是福建到馬祖走小三通的船他的團客現在的條件是怎樣團客是要先我們開平潭他再放福建的人來台灣那個團體旅遊好他在想什麼他為什麼想福建"},{"start":4890.606,"end":4891.207,"text":"為什麼限福建?你認為對方思考什麼?"},{"start":4911.172,"end":4924.189,"text":"他們最愛講對等其實我們的對等也一樣那我們對等就是說我們開放台灣的團客那他現在開放準備開放福建的團客他是不是把福建跟台灣畫上對等"},{"start":4926.065,"end":4940.741,"text":"他們是有這過去的政策的規劃裡頭常常是有這樣的想法所以這個如果接受的話所以這個如果接受如果同意他是對等的話台灣又變台灣省了捏"},{"start":4943.402,"end":4965.328,"text":"所以這個不對等啦我們的新聞稿已經有對外講說陸方這一次的這個所謂縣條件跟縣區域這個就不對等了對 所以我寧可相信他是因為這一次因為我們國民黨黨團有十多位委員去到中國大陸遞出感染資所以給我們一個福建省的這個旅遊團"},{"start":4968.37,"end":4968.41,"text":"第二個"},{"start":4993.907,"end":5001.374,"text":"2023年以去年來講的話我們台灣去到中國旅遊的總人數這個要請觀光署這邊來做回應176萬那對方來22萬為什麼那麼少觀光署副署長請你回應"},{"start":5013.547,"end":5027.632,"text":"我想這個2023附入176萬就是包含所有人去到我們去的嘛我們去176萬那為什麼他們來那麼少那因為其實台灣對於去大陸的自由行其實以前一直都沒有進我們是開放的對不對沒有進過那為什麼他們只有22萬來"},{"start":5030.816,"end":5051.219,"text":"因為他們沒有放那個自由行也沒有放團體旅客所以是中國大陸方面他們限制他們的人來台灣對不對就是旅遊的部分這個是不對等的對不對因為以2019年那大陸的入客來台灣的話是有這個兩百多萬對兩百七十"},{"start":5052.133,"end":5076.021,"text":"所以疫情之後他開放了他到其他國家旅遊但是唯獨138個國家裡面沒有包含台灣他還限制這個他們的國人來到台灣旅遊是中國方面限制而不是台灣限制他們進來對不對我們沒有限制我們就是主動說我們做好準備了歡迎你開放入客來"},{"start":5076.903,"end":5100.206,"text":"所以我們今天就是這個目的其實要跟國人講得很清楚第一個我們沒有限制他們來第二個團客的部分其實目前是他們在限制但是我們都已經準備好了這跟我們預設的不一樣啊我們也以為經過這個交流之後我們也要跟這個副總召拍拍手結果"},{"start":5101.639,"end":5122.427,"text":"來的是開放這個去馬祖的自由行一年6500個人的自由行第二個用區域用福建省來跟台灣來對等要開放福建人組團用平潭來跟台灣來做這個團客的這個旅遊"},{"start":5125.372,"end":5148.441,"text":"現在的狀況是這樣對不對從對方宣布的訊息可以這樣解讀是 謝謝所以針對這一個不對等的條件的宣布雖然有一點點我們還是覺得很好對馬祖這邊很好但是對於這種不對等的把福建跟台灣想要畫上對等的這個"},{"start":5149.781,"end":5165.424,"text":"這一個政策的話我覺得我們還是要審慎我們還是希望用全部的這個觀光客我們都沒有限制啊用全部的這個團客來跟對方這個全部的團客來多做一些彼此的交流我覺得這樣會比較適當我們會堅持平等互惠這個原則謝謝謝謝李博弈委員的質詢謝謝這個副主委還有副署長繼續我們請劉徐庭委員質詢"},{"start":5192.674,"end":5208.234,"text":"好 這個謝謝主席齁 這個陸委會副主委有請有請這個李副主委 謝謝交通部也一起好不好 交通部好 我們有請周副署長"},{"start":5215.036,"end":5240.408,"text":"好 謝謝這個現在我們這個當初有這個禁團禁團令就是團客赴陸暫時暫緩開放這件事情當初2月7號的時候我們也曾經在這地方做過討論那當初交通部有講說有幾個問題第一個就是陸客還沒有旅行團還沒有來做開放第二個就是說M503的一個爭議第三個就是說整體情勢不利國家利益最後還有反間諜法這些東西請問交通部觀光署這些因素到目前為止有沒有改變"},{"start":5242.568,"end":5248.516,"text":"請問觀光署,出遊的人身風險是要自行評估的事項,還是需要政府管制的事項?"},{"start":5264.295,"end":5284.045,"text":"報告委員如果說是自由行的話那可能就要自己去要注意各種的一個安全因素那如果說團體旅遊他有相關的一個保險的一個機制有保險的機制好沒關係這個東西打詢做一個參考因為今天重點其實也不是在觀光署我現在來問這個陸委會的副主委"},{"start":5284.785,"end":5301.546,"text":"這法律上有個概念叫做同時履行抗辯也就是說簡單來說呢就是說雙方的這個契約一方位於他方為對待己父之前可以拒絕提出自己己父的權利這個法律用語聽起來很尖澀但是用簡單的生活用語來講就叫做一手交錢一手交貨"},{"start":5302.407,"end":5331.409,"text":"副主委了解這個概念嗎?也就是說買賣雙方對不對其實都可以主張一手交錢一手交貨可是實務上會發生什麼事?就我今天要去買早餐的時候要嘛他先把早餐送上來嘛要嘛我先買單先付錢他再準備早餐對不對不管怎麼樣都不太可能同時嘛錢出去早餐就來不太容易做到對不對所以說實務上在處理這件事情的時候很難所謂的同時履行一定要有一方先做嘛好先做所以其實也是要按照這個社會脈絡一個互信基礎來做處理嘛對不對副主委同意這樣的說法嗎?"},{"start":5332.335,"end":5346.753,"text":"嗯,是,是好,那現在齁我們今天來討論這個團客的這個問題嘛你說按照理論上的自由市場是不是應該大家全部開放對不對,理論上從自由市場的角度"},{"start":5348.522,"end":5360.88,"text":"先撇除這些政治因素或等等從自由市場的角度如果你講自由市場的對等其實就是不受任何的限制每個國家對於自己旅行社管理是有他自己的權限"},{"start":5364.025,"end":5385.603,"text":"我們要一步到位達到那個完全互相開放客觀上是有困難的就像我講的沒有辦法突然之間達成這樣的問題那尤其是跟中國大陸大家的關係是非常敏感的特別在溝通管道暢通的情況之下大概也很難一步到位說兩邊一起講好然後一起達成但因為這個最近4月28號有釋出一部分的善意即便陸委會現在我剛剛聽你"},{"start":5386.743,"end":5407.55,"text":"回答其他委員的詢問的時候你當然會覺得說從我們官方的角度來看這個讓步跟這個讓利其實是很小的嘛 對不對但是算不算一點點善意我沒有說很小我是說跟我們的預期差太多了跟差太多就不如預期啦那你們現在打算怎麼樣回應這件事情"},{"start":5408.909,"end":5433.174,"text":"我們現在就是因為跟我們原來的規劃差太多了然後也需要有一些事情要進一步去釐清包括說他說要率先開放馬祖那所謂率先是指說先放馬祖後面還有金門還是說還有自由行等等那這個我們要進一步去釐清然後因為這個會涉及到我們接待的一些準備"},{"start":5434.454,"end":5460.894,"text":"好 那所以這個我們還在演繹當中我跟你講過去我們在討論的時候我們都討論所謂的同時開放也就是說同時履行那如果會講說你沒開我當然不能開嘛 對不對就陷入我剛剛講那個一手交錢一手交貨的僵局那能夠務實解決這件事情的方法是從小的地方先開始一點點善意換一點點善意開始有一點點互信基礎之後慢慢慢慢的來逐步開放這個我們願意尊重政府的做法但是不能沒有回應嘛現在就是說好像"},{"start":5461.714,"end":5463.155,"text":"這涉及到很多部會的選擇 大家都在跨部會的研究當中"},{"start":5480.748,"end":5501.171,"text":"副主委你這樣回答當然從站在你這個陸委會的本位啦你說啊我有好多機關對不對這些機關跟我一樣大我也要尊重他們的意見啊等等這當然從你的本位你要這樣回答我不會太意外啊但其實剛剛很多委員其實也關心嘛因為人家如果有機會來 對不對來是我們的觀光業是有商機的嘛而我們的政府機關在處理這種事情的時候如果他沒有明確的期程"},{"start":5501.932,"end":5527.547,"text":"然後如果沒有一個這個我要加速這個決心的時候那對觀光業來講當然就是打擊嘛就是負面的消息對不對因為簡單來講所以我們今天要的是有沒有明確的集成簡單來講我們剛剛講到說就是我們有關小三通或是團客到台灣我們都做好準備了所以陸方現在放馬祖所以馬祖的人要到福建人要到馬祖旅遊這個沒有問題這個也不用回應這一定是可以做的對"},{"start":5527.987,"end":5535.824,"text":"因為他現在是等於是他片面開放所以我講這是可以實現的但是因為現在各界要陸委會回應的不是只有"},{"start":5537.148,"end":5557.418,"text":"福建居民到馬祖這件事情能不能實現還有很多的還有後面的事情還有很多要我們回應這個就要進一步的去研議他現在說我先開放一部分但是他也提了要求如果這個海峽可以復航我可以再放一些人進來對不對這些都跟當初大家想像你開放我開放的這種很困難門檻很高的這種所以這個需要時間"},{"start":5558.699,"end":5559.159,"text":"我的意思是說"},{"start":5578.65,"end":5601.726,"text":"福建居民到馬祖的部分我現在就可以跟委員報告這一定可以做嘛因為我們說我們準備好了但是他還有其他的其他的要求嘛我現在就要問喔再一分鐘現在他們現在來不管你講說可能福建的量體不是那麼大或者說他甚至來馬祖那只是一點點一時一時而已但是都沒有要求我們要馬上開放對不對"},{"start":5602.947,"end":5619.905,"text":"所以其實還沒有走到那個互相開放的一個程度對不對所以相對來講你可以不用透過我們的旅行團要過去的這樣子的強度去做回應嘛那剛剛也有委員有問我覺得不是沒有道理你選福建、台灣會不會你一審對這個台灣我們又被矮化那我覺得陸委會我們的官方我們可以提條件啦"},{"start":5620.606,"end":5637.12,"text":"我們也可以提條件啊就我們不反對民進黨政府領導的官方也跟中國大陸做合理的談判跟交流嘛我們的意見是都會納入考量是如果你覺得說只開放不夠以至於我沒辦法換那開放多少才夠三個省五個省作為階段性的配套可不可以討論可不可以思考"},{"start":5639.307,"end":5659.794,"text":"今天我們都納入考量我就是跟委員報告因為現在今天是星期三那幾天的時間我覺得我們對這件事情其實是非常慎重兩岸的事情我們是很慎重所以我們正在演繹當中我就今天再透過這個詢答我們就做幾個提醒我們會盡快第一個說這是有機會可以做互相的善意堆疊希望陸委會可以把握這個機會第二個"},{"start":5660.774,"end":5676.511,"text":"我贊成民進黨政府也提相應的條件他只要能夠談即便國民黨民進黨一直以來很大的落差但是若可以談因為基於台灣觀光業的發展這個把它變成民生的問題你可以大膽的提出你的條件然後試著來做交流我想我們不會反對這件事情的委員會納入考量"},{"start":5677.452,"end":5691.003,"text":"那第三個就是時間要明確啦如果它的門檻已經比過去低很多的時候我們是希望政府有一個明確的時間讓觀光業者可以有所預期也有所準備好不好這三個目標希望部委會可以聽得進去謝謝好 謝謝劉徐廷委員的質詢也謝謝副組長還有副組委謝謝繼續我們請王美惠委員質詢"},{"start":5701.519,"end":5716.708,"text":"我們在黃建斌委員質詢之後,我們休息五分鐘,謝謝謝謝,感謝,我們感謝趙委,我們請副主委請你副主委我們,那個觀光署副署長周副署長,謝謝委員好來,早上好,大家好,在這兩天本席要跟你說"},{"start":5726.328,"end":5739.54,"text":"中國人要來台灣,是台灣反對還是中國反對來?你能回答一下?沒有啦,是什麼人反對啦?在一個國家啊?我說台灣沒反對,那反對是什麼人?他現在還緊急嘛,緊急他們的組團來我們這邊"},{"start":5752.079,"end":5758.041,"text":"疫情之後其實自由行的或是國人自己組團已經可以去了有有3月之後呢已經現在已經有4000團10萬個人有嘛齁是是"},{"start":5777.867,"end":5781.988,"text":"今天五月初一,我們是不是到五月底我們的團要繼續出團?繼續出團嗎?所以在這個總統府裡面,如果中國臨時覺得說,哎喲,這跟台灣做朋友不錯喔,就覺得賺錢喔,不要再求偏欠,我們賭錢過的時候,"},{"start":5804.273,"end":5805.254,"text":"準備好了,這句話應該是長久以來你知道要代一段話說的嘛"},{"start":5823.673,"end":5835.419,"text":"所以在你們觀光署說準備好了就是表示未來我們陸委會你如果認真拍拚去協商去說不一定會成的所以我們是觀光署準備好了的在這個環境裡面大家都說跟台灣人不要開放台灣人去中國出頭"},{"start":5852.745,"end":5864.874,"text":"在這裏我先要跟你說的就是台灣人都願意我們的台灣人去中國出頭但他對付台灣這個國家兩頭琴骨我們才會做出這樣所以剛才有很多我們的董事會說說是要怎樣可以讓我們台灣的"},{"start":5880.922,"end":5883.107,"text":"理行社也好、餐廳也好、很多飯店也有發動性外匯"},{"start":5889.082,"end":5895.245,"text":"另外每一個人都一樣,大家都想要生活、要經濟好一點所以這個問題的關頭是出在哪裡?副主委說一下還是在中國政府那邊中國政府嘛,在這裡面我說,若恨不養生,恨不養生的"},{"start":5914.173,"end":5919.855,"text":"我們台灣人要去中國出土,一天有176萬人,他現在22萬人,這樣對台灣人,敢有一點用膳,像你剛才說的,對等,我們根本沒有對等,在這裏面,本席剛才已經到現在要講四分鐘了,問題,你們中國人,"},{"start":5944.694,"end":5953.436,"text":"是要出國一定要限制他們要去帶一個國家嗎?他們是沒有自由的,要他們國家統一才可以出國嗎?是不是這樣?他們組團社可以去哪裡,它有規定的,帶團去哪裡都有規定。所以說,生活在這個台灣自由的國家,是要保存我們台灣的權利,"},{"start":5972.739,"end":6002.654,"text":"來．"},{"start":6003.752,"end":6010.46,"text":"因為現在是大陸那邊要幫忙做嘛,我們這邊本來就是說來哪裡都可以啊所以說,說來說去,說到四分多鐘,是中國不要他們進來,不是我們台灣人不要他們進來,這是最主要的關係"},{"start":6025.877,"end":6026.177,"text":"經濟經濟來經濟今天有經濟"},{"start":6040.331,"end":6059.686,"text":"處長,在這裏面你也有人在這裏面他有複代一下說他也管他來我們買文殿啦文殿是中秋節到有的啦你有遺憾到萬一如果禁告起的時候他再說他有被害的時候你要怎麼處理來?你有想到農民未來要領那個嗎?"},{"start":6066.699,"end":6075.462,"text":"檢驗檢疫的問題我們已經有跟陸方提過很多次應該要經過檢驗我現在就是說檢驗都說沒問題去到他們那裡都沒問題你有什麼防範措施沒有來?農業部還是賣他們藥的賣他們一個藝術的"},{"start":6084.931,"end":6093.879,"text":"農業部有透過WTO的管道還有兩岸協議的管道都有要求跟陸方溝通可是他們沒有回覆因為我覺得這裏面是怎麼的經濟他現在放一個主委給我們我們就要在那裡說要怎麼開放我覺得最不稀罕要讓台灣"},{"start":6109.787,"end":6109.807,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":6135.203,"end":6136.003,"text":"主席副主委"},{"start":6156.758,"end":6157.138,"text":"原來在過去其實"},{"start":6186.38,"end":6202.86,"text":"兩邊的旅客是有來有往在2019年陸方就說基於兩岸關係的考量所以就把自由行給關掉了然後這個團客也慢慢的減少因為他們的組團社一般"},{"start":6203.5,"end":6231.616,"text":"政府是可以給他做一些影響所以2019年的時候其實團客也慢慢在變少那疫情之後呢他就整個都關掉了那當然疫情之後呢我們也就恢復恢復兩邊的往來所以我們疫情之後對於我們的國人到大陸去呢並沒有做特別的限制那對於我們組團社去的部分我們就希望說是一個對等的方式也就是說"},{"start":6232.256,"end":6260.601,"text":"他們的組團社可以帶團體的客人到台灣的時候我們再讓我們的組團社可以帶我們的團體客人到大陸去這樣的一個規劃在8月24號我們就主動的來做宣布等於說遞出一個所謂的善意那這個事情到後來對方就一直在講說你們一定要先對組團社部分有一些就是我們去的部分他要我們先有一些"},{"start":6261.981,"end":6262.582,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6277.691,"end":6293.404,"text":"故事就是到了今年的1月就是剛剛其實委員有提到到了1月的時候他還是不願意放他的團體客人來然後甚至於還有很多很多的像503航線的啟動還有很多很多軍機這些所以我們才會"},{"start":6295.746,"end":6296.566,"text":"2019年中國片面的改變現狀然後中斷了中國的客人來台"},{"start":6315.535,"end":6321.199,"text":"不管是自由行還是團客都是這樣那台灣其實始終都是秉持著善意我們認為只要對等就來交流本來就是有來有往本來就是禮尚往來而且台灣人是非常善良的我們的橄欖枝從來都沒有停過我們都準備好了就是我們開放你開放我就開放你怎麼開放我就怎麼開放"},{"start":6336.73,"end":6357.874,"text":"甚至到了2023年台灣去中國的客人是176萬人那中國來台灣的只有22萬這是一個非常嚴重的差異非常嚴重的已經是一個非常不對等的狀況那甚至我們今年3到5月也有10萬人的團客可以到中國了嘛"},{"start":6358.294,"end":6384.559,"text":"那對台灣的觀光業當然非常不公平阿對台灣的觀光業想說我們的客人都到你們那裡去的結果你們都不來那導致台灣的觀光業不管是旅宿業餐飲業都想說這樣對我們真的好嗎那我覺得當然啦再來就是要講到說所以這一次的這個新的提案就是中國說福建他們要開放到馬祖那請問一下這樣是多少人阿"},{"start":6386.139,"end":6394.624,"text":"以疫情前的話是6500對講出來我相信副主委自己也很想笑6500人次"},{"start":6397.998,"end":6426.626,"text":"是啊而且是最高只有這樣子的人次喔所以我覺得我不知道說陸委會是怎麼看啦但我看到這個這樣的一個釋出的善意我會覺得說是一個笑話嗎怎麼會有點丟臉的感覺而且就是你要那你福建來馬祖那是不是我們也對等的開放馬祖到福建這樣就好了呢因為他們也沒有說福建可以到金門也沒有說福建可以到花蓮甚至也沒有說福建可以到澎湖嘛"},{"start":6427.626,"end":6429.17,"text":"甚至連傅坤祺總叫自己去中國討的他們說要幫花蓮帶來觀光結果連花蓮都沒有爭取到欸"},{"start":6436.784,"end":6458.301,"text":"因為一直到5月底的話我們還是組團社現在去我們是沒有限區域的啦到5月底都還是這樣那6月1號以後要不要做調整當然委員這個建議我們會做個考量好啊 我的建議就是說我們就是很對等啦我們本來都是我們就是非常善良然後我們都是保持著這種投桃報李的心情"},{"start":6460.202,"end":6484.768,"text":"對阿我們一直都是這樣所以就是如果好阿你福建來馬祖那我們馬祖也去福建阿就是這樣子就是可以互相相當然後如果那你們願意再加開金門願意再加開花蓮願意再加開澎湖好阿那我們這邊的大家也很願意來交流嘛是這樣我們始終都是秉持著善意然後也都希望對等的來交流完全沒有任何的偏見"},{"start":6485.948,"end":6490.05,"text":"那我想說最後啊還是要講一下說我想問一下我們這一趟這17位同仁到了中國回來之後有沒有跟陸委會來遊說要求開放平台的執行啊目前沒有沒有這個為什麼會這樣問呢因為這一趟只有看到記者會的訊息"},{"start":6509.02,"end":6509.581,"text":"繼續我們請黃建斌委員質詢"},{"start":6549.425,"end":6575.226,"text":"好 謝謝主席其實今天我們到場的官員除了我們本委員會的陸委會副主委以外好像就只有這個觀光署的副署長有到那其實今天有很多想要關於交通的問題想要請教不過因為觀光跟今天在討論的就是跟觀光有關係交通跟觀光是一體的那不過我就先就叫我們那個觀光署的副署長有請周副署長"},{"start":6580.686,"end":6607.089,"text":"委員好副署長好副署長那個520只剩下19天了那馬上就新的團隊要上任那我們的賴副總統也即將要成為我們的下任的新的總統那他在參選總統的時候有提出過觀光產業的六大具體做法這個一定是未來我們交通部非常重要的政策之一那我想請教副署長那個六大政策是哪六大政策"},{"start":6610.193,"end":6623.221,"text":"這個賴副總統的一個觀光的一個白皮書那我目前都會在引領相關的一個...副總長,我在第一次質詢的時候就已經有洩體的落行這次你又不記起來,這樣會被批判嗎?"},{"start":6624.814,"end":6649.63,"text":"這個重要政策你都聽謝提庫給你這樣本期在第二次質詢就有講到丟大面相那時候答不出來現在你還沒有辦法忙答出來其實就是觀光立國然後落實相關的觀光產業及這個把這些觀光產業的一個在地化還有這個吸引國際的觀光客各個市場我們要做吸引這個我們都目前都在淋漓當中"},{"start":6650.59,"end":6674.706,"text":"謝謝部長回答得非常好為什麼我會這樣說其實我們裡面有提到一個就是部部有觀光各地有觀光這件事這是一個很好的願景那期許我們未來各部會都要推動觀光讓觀光產業能夠打造當台灣變成觀光大國這件事情不過本席認為這一點有點困難應該做不到為什麼這樣講"},{"start":6679.127,"end":6707.077,"text":"你知道台東有一個很有名的一個旅遊景點在池上還有一個很漂亮的池上的那個稻米的大稻有一棵樹有一個很帥的男生坐在樹下喝茶那個叫金城武,後來有一棵樹叫金城武樹嘛是,很知名的景點那時候叫台東ICU嘛對不對現在變成台東ICU我們今天台東的觀光業要給我賠房了你知道嗎?已經進入交通病房的狀態你知道嗎?"},{"start":6709.217,"end":6736.169,"text":"其實我們的各個管理處目前在臺東有成立這個觀光圈那最近要開始的這個觀光業界其實還蠻吸引人的是 副市長本席跟你講一下為什麼臺東觀光進入ICU進入教育病房照道理說臺東在暑假熱氣球因為接下來臺東很重要一個旅遊的活動就是熱氣球嘉年華那以往的病房大概是八層到目前只剩下三層"},{"start":6737.509,"end":6741.572,"text":"地震造成的後果是民眾對於東部交通的不安全感"},{"start":6754.063,"end":6773.058,"text":"這個部分,我相信副市長應該也有收到相關的一些澄清的資料嗎?是,我剛剛有做一個說明,這個臺東熱氣球是非常知名,那我們也跟各個旅行社來做一個各市場的行銷,對,所以像那個義油網他現在承攬這樣的一個有啦,上個禮拜我們只跟陳董事長一起開記者會而已啊,本席只要本席"},{"start":6777.802,"end":6794.895,"text":"副長本席想要提醒的是說在前陣子臺東的旅遊業者才開記者會要求我們的觀光署來協助因為我們常常在講就是你不能用臺北人的角度在看地方花東本來就是一地的嘛"},{"start":6795.595,"end":6820.5,"text":"雖然這次地震災害對台東來講是很幸運沒有很明顯的受到災損可是其實它影響到的是像是火車、鐵軌的問題還有上個禮拜因為大雨土石流造成火車停駛然後原班車將像遣返一樣回去台北那個對民眾的心理其實是有影響的這個都是會對台東的觀光造成很大的傷害"},{"start":6821.56,"end":6824.161,"text":"報告委員因為這個涉及到經費的補助委員的意見我們會把它納入演議"},{"start":6851.35,"end":6855.205,"text":"這個都這麼久了為什麼本席會提這個呢?"},{"start":6857.683,"end":6883.832,"text":"這張提出說為了因應整個花蓮的這個重建提出了200多億的重建方案,對吧?阿副市長,台東你報分你要變多少?其實觀光署對於臺東的觀光一直是非常的支持我就問啦,我就問你台東有多少多少啦就是跟台東縣政府或者是說在地的觀光業者我們都一起來做一個行銷跟推動副市長,我跟你報告啦,副市長我跟你報告啦,臺東這次補助是零啦200億裡面臺東補助是零啦"},{"start":6889.611,"end":6890.662,"text":"是不是要去ICU啊?"},{"start":6892.95,"end":6920.708,"text":"其實我們觀光署對於台東縣的軟硬體其實都非常的支持所以本期才建議就比照2018年的時候的方式來補助你200億裡面一部分來協助台東的業者花東是硬體的花蓮不好台東一樣不會好就像花蓮發生地震台東第一時間跑去救災未來台東有需要花蓮也第一時間過來協助我們一樣的道理我們這時候就是拜託中央能不能夠來協助台東縣"},{"start":6922.189,"end":6947.886,"text":"這樣可以嗎?副主席其實我們現在在推的觀光圈就是花東觀光圈那委員的提議我們會來研議副主長 這個都是做過的案例不用研議趕快因為為什麼我會提到這一塊就是推到我們今天的主席主席有在講那個那個我們陸委會副主委有請李副主委"},{"start":6952.049,"end":6975.808,"text":"副主委為什麼要花這麼多時間跟副主長講這麼多的事情?其實台中很單純,我們的商業也很單純,就是主要以農業跟觀光兩個產業是吧?那我們也知道說當然我們不是說一定要靠陸客可是以目前來看最大的量還是在中國大陸的旅客這個消費族群來說那這幾年確實我們看到整個兩岸的冰點"},{"start":6978.13,"end":6978.29,"text":"那 部長"},{"start":7000.905,"end":7025.132,"text":"我有一件事想要問一下副主委啦好不好意思好謝謝主席我在用書面我只是希望請我們相關單位來協助我們臺東的相關的產業那未來如果說像之前水果臺東縣臺東縣政府可以用我們的勞欠影信黨用這樣的模式過去大陸然後讓他恢復"},{"start":7026.532,"end":7034.658,"text":"關光因為當然去希望陸方趕快把客人送過來這個沒有涉及公平﹖我說如果今天兩岸都還沒辦法破冰的時候各縣市政府可不可以這樣做我們自己加油可不可以"},{"start":7056.468,"end":7076.093,"text":"您是說去跟陸方呼籲嗎?對當然都可以啊都可以呼籲陸方趕快放陸客來如果他們願意來陸河城也同意就對了我們都準備好了各縣市都OK的謝謝副主委謝謝副署長謝謝謝謝建兵委員執行謝謝主席不好意思謝謝謝謝李副主委還有副署長我們現在休息5分鐘繼續我們的質詢"},{"start":7461.803,"end":7462.243,"text":"徐宇貞委員徐宇貞委員"},{"start":7492.035,"end":7515.268,"text":"我想先請教一下陸委會陸委會在3月6號有針對附陸旅遊團停招的這個專題報告的第二個部分後續推動及影響評估的第二項指出關於兩岸團體旅遊的後續推動若對岸願意釋出善意兩岸的氣氛朝向良性的發展我方不排除提早進行適當的調整"},{"start":7517.009,"end":7543.754,"text":"在經過馬席二會跟我們國民黨、黨團、總召、富坤齊及我們一些立委大家共同的努力之下大陸方面已經表示願意開放福建省的民眾到馬祖旅遊然後等台灣恢復平潭的直航台灣的海上客運之後再進一步的開放福建民眾到台灣本島團客旅遊同時也宣布5月6號會開放北京、上海、成都、南京等20個城市"},{"start":7545.215,"end":7550.788,"text":"全程網上申請補發赴台證請問這樣算不算釋出善意?"},{"start":7552.773,"end":7577.174,"text":"當然是一個善意但是這個善意又有一些條件然後跟我們原來預期有很大的差距然後第二個講到兩岸請問你們本來預期是什麼當然是他們能夠全區就所有的各地的大陸旅客都可以到台灣來團體旅遊那小三通的部分我們是金門馬祖都希望可以到金門馬祖來旅行"},{"start":7579.135,"end":7598.926,"text":"我記得你們的報告是講說如果對方願意釋出善意的話你們會提早進行調整那現在對方釋出善意你們又覺得這個善意又不夠大那到底要怎麼樣才叫做有善意你們才能夠接受的幅度我覺得在這個部分其實既然是兩岸希望能夠破冰"},{"start":7600.547,"end":7611.603,"text":"之前一直在說等大陸提出善意等大陸推出善意你沒有選幅度不夠大不夠善意我覺得這樣子的話我們沒有選我們說跟我們預期有落差那現在跟你們預期有落差之後不能調整嗎"},{"start":7613.248,"end":7637.715,"text":"所以我們現在正在研議跟評估當中那還有後面講到這個兩岸情勢和緩但是最近除了他放陸客這件事情其實還有其他的兩岸事件還在發生當中所以這個兩岸關係是不是有和緩那這個也要我們做整體評估所以這個部分我們現在就是正在各部會、跨部會的研商當中"},{"start":7638.756,"end":7659.137,"text":"我再請教一下目前平潭到台灣的船只能載貨那載客在2020年的時候是因為新冠疫情的時候先暫停嗎那現在新冠疫情的影響其實已經結束了我們還要繼續禁止嗎可以載貨但卻不能載人邏輯上說不通嗎何時可以重新開放"},{"start":7659.718,"end":7683.43,"text":"其實兩岸的航點我們過去就有提到就是看實際的需求有需求的時候然後還有就是看整個兩岸情勢然後來做現在看起來就是有需求嘛因為如果我們把這個平潭的這個海上客運恢復直航之後福建的陸客就能夠來到台灣主船旅遊你知道福建省有多少人嗎福建省有4188萬人"},{"start":7685.751,"end":7685.771,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":7703.651,"end":7719.052,"text":"兩邊這個客運的航點的恢復都是看需求還有看整體情勢其實剛剛提到的就福建省已經他的人口數是4188萬人以2019年來台旅客的觀光支出統計每一個旅客平均是停留"},{"start":7719.412,"end":7719.692,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7742.566,"end":7762.074,"text":"不管是觀光旅遊業或服務業來說都是一筆非常大的收入所以現在陸方其實只要等我們平台的客運這個直航恢復之後就可以開放福建的民眾來到我們台灣其實這麼大的一筆這個收入我想對於我們觀光旅遊業者來說一定是很希望能夠"},{"start":7762.874,"end":7763.355,"text":"這部分本來就沒有問題"},{"start":7780.367,"end":7780.407,"text":"主席"},{"start":7795.538,"end":7796.058,"text":"我們的意思是說我們對於這個"},{"start":7819.858,"end":7821.219,"text":"我們剛剛是在跟委員解釋說我們上一次的那個報告講到說對方有善意那我們就說這跟我們的預期有點差距"},{"start":7839.859,"end":7841.361,"text":"最後一個問題請教一下我們的副署長之前你們在6月1號有一個"},{"start":7863.88,"end":7881.823,"text":"負入組團的一個禁令那現在既然大陸方面已經釋出善意了那這個善意的話我想對我們台灣觀光旅遊業者大家其實是打了一劑強心針那現在就等觀光署這邊是不是能夠立即取消不要讓我們的觀光旅遊業者跟相關的這個從業人員覺得失望"},{"start":7883.295,"end":7908.385,"text":"其實現在3月到5月我們臺灣復入的團課是沒有取消我知道我指的是6月1號這個部分可能現在因為之前是說對方這個沒有善意那現在既然對方沒有善意希望我們的這個觀光署這邊要儘速的嚴禮6月1號取消這個禁止復入這個團課的這個禁令我想交通部會再跟各部會這邊再來演繹好謝謝"},{"start":7911.021,"end":7912.002,"text":"主席、議會同仁、陸委會副主委、"},{"start":7942.165,"end":7943.226,"text":"觀光署副署長"},{"start":7957.828,"end":7981.182,"text":"觀光署的副署長,針對我們現在所談論的兩岸開放理由的問題本席在這邊真的也是非常期待說觀光業能找路的開放,也要秉持平等的互惠原則,這是我們的前提"},{"start":7982.168,"end":7999.893,"text":"那我在這邊還是本席這邊的資料我還是蠻訝異因為中國大陸他有14億人口那台灣台灣的人口只有2300萬比例是1比70那這顯示出來你說"},{"start":8003.998,"end":8030.527,"text":"2023年我們赴中國大陸有176萬人次那中國大陸來台只有22萬那這個懸殊真的有過大那問題是不是我們兩岸要重啟這個旅遊業的觀光的開放那是不是我們都是很贊成那我們相信早上我的看法我們的執行"},{"start":8031.347,"end":8056.892,"text":"我們政府也都準備好了那就是等對岸他的回應那因為大家都基於平等互惠的原則這是我們要去努力的那陸委會是不是請副主委我們要怎樣來平衡這個理由頁這我們有什麼措施來刺激兩岸的觀光"},{"start":8058.629,"end":8074.982,"text":"對於兩岸的觀光我們就是對於陸客來當然我們就歡迎因為我們看到2019年就疫情之前那大陸的陸客來台灣還有200多萬那當然我們國人去也大概300萬左右"},{"start":8075.683,"end":8090.031,"text":"那這個部分我們就是在疫情之後我們就主動的說歡迎陸客能夠組團來那但是因為陸客能夠組團來台的話必須他們的政府同意他們的組團社可以帶團體旅遊到台灣"},{"start":8093.893,"end":8118.274,"text":"政府同意他們的組團社才能夠帶到臺灣所以我們先公布這樣的政策那些一直都希望表示我們已經準備好希望陸方能夠盡快的開放他們的組團社來那這個部分當然等到現在目前來看我們一直秉持要對等所以我們一直在講說如果他們的組團社能夠"},{"start":8119.275,"end":8120.375,"text":"因為我本席這邊的資料你看"},{"start":8145.029,"end":8156.096,"text":"2019年大陸附金門里有30萬09萬的人次那到馬祖只有6500人那6500人你開放一個馬祖你說附近開放馬祖來觀光那意義也不大那你要開放這連我們本土都開放那你這樣大家的人數大家可以來對照嘛他來多少我們過去多少那這樣就"},{"start":8173.748,"end":8174.79,"text":"仍促進兩岸"},{"start":8175.922,"end":8199.296,"text":"的觀光的產業那這樣才能符合我們平等互惠的原則那這點應該是我們也要朝這個方向來努力那再來因為現在就是媽祖先今天也是五一勞動節也是媽祖先很多大陸的觀光團他們的宗教交流很多宗教要過來台灣我們台灣也很多要過去對岸"},{"start":8204.499,"end":8218.708,"text":"那秉持的這樣因為我們的開放還要經過審核這審核的階段是不是能夠更放鬆讓他們好純粹是宗教的交流這一點我們還是要去"},{"start":8219.508,"end":8246.982,"text":"去把它放寬那不涉及政治這是我們的前提但是因為這個宗教的交流第一關是要這個我們內政部民政司這邊來做整個案件的一個審核之後才會給移民署這邊來會其他單位的意見所以我想每一個宗教交流的案件我們都是陸委會都是支持的只要是健康有序的"},{"start":8247.882,"end":8256.371,"text":"合法合規的我們都支持對我們當然要支持但是我們的申請條件還是是不是可以把它再放寬一點"},{"start":8257.737,"end":8281.747,"text":"申請的條件應該跟過去沒有太大的差異因為本市這邊有因為宗教交流總是要符合宗教交流的幾個要件我想這個並沒有改變應該沒有問題因為不涉及兩岸的政治以及官員是純粹的宗教交流因為我們台灣的宗教到那邊"},{"start":8282.988,"end":8289.933,"text":"今天署長有來,總署長您要不要回應一下趙偉,其實本席這邊也接到非常多的人民的陳情案你們似乎在審的時候,這個規矩真的蠻多的,謝謝"},{"start":8313.514,"end":8336.256,"text":"委員好有關省建的部分因為宗教交流的部分目前還是如同剛剛所講的這個是要先經內政部宗教師那邊先最後還是到你們這裡啊合不合準是到你們這邊我現在談的是合不合準因為有非常多的人民也是成群到我辦公室來"},{"start":8336.957,"end":8357.532,"text":"是,那不會是移民署一個單位的意見沒有啦,我知道,我們是單位還是陸委會嘛我們各單位來聯審因為我講這樣,我真的接到很多的陳情案件所以我才想說,在審核的方面是不是要不涉及政治、不涉及官方只是宗教交流,我們還是要放寬啦好不好"},{"start":8359.673,"end":8375.263,"text":"不然我們的人數他們過來的確實都很少啊那我們過去的一團一個宗教交流就上千萬上千人啦那真的很嚇人啊他們過來了不起一百差不多一百多人"},{"start":8376.886,"end":8394.692,"text":"還是有閒書在吧好不好好謝謝謝謝吳昭偉提這個問題您的困擾跟我一樣我們都接到非常多的不好意思鍾中士我還是要再請問您一下我都感覺有一個很大的黑手在後面要核准誰來誰不來"},{"start":8397.046,"end":8415.125,"text":"所以不是您剛剛講的這麼清楚的是涉及到各部會第一次的審查其實第一次審查都沒有問題,最後到你們那邊去的時候,你們那邊就阻擋不會啦,我們不會刻意阻擋吳釗偉是民進黨的,我是無黨的,很多人就是到我們這邊來陳情"},{"start":8420.173,"end":8445.509,"text":"不會跟委員報告我們還是這個還是我們有陳秦漢私底下找鄰居應該沒問題不用說不需要什麼特別私底下我們的標準是一致的我記得很多委員也到我辦公室來說我是招我為什麼連這樣的事情都不能處理沒有沒有不會跟委員報告事實上就有啊我們不會這樣子做我們沒有必要刻意去什麼阻擋或什麼就如同剛剛委員講的"},{"start":8446.049,"end":8449.551,"text":"今天聽到兩位召委的心聲我們不僅僅代表申請來的人民的聲音也代表其他立法委員很多立法委員都到我辦公室來"},{"start":8471.264,"end":8474.625,"text":"謝謝主席本席請陸委會還有李副主委交通部周副署長"},{"start":8506.318,"end":8531.563,"text":"本席首先想請問這個交通部好了我們周副署長我們請問一下平潭到臺灣的客運運輸以前是這個都開放的嘛對不對後來是什麼原因停止的這部分是不是由我們那個杭政司司長由杭政司好杭政司是發委員那一樣是因為疫情的關係對嘛那現在還有疫情嗎"},{"start":8533.455,"end":8537.298,"text":"現在還有疫情嗎?疫情解除那為什麼還沒開放?為什麼還沒開放?你因為疫情停止那現在疫情解除了為什麼還沒開放?"},{"start":8548.383,"end":8573.451,"text":"這部分我們會朝向這是健康有序的方式來做推動什麼朝向健康有序那你現在已經你說是因為疫情才這個停止啊那現在已經沒有疫情了為什麼不開放理由是什麼你要給全國人民一個說法報委員這部分就是我們會朝這方向來努力不過還是會看整個市場的一個需求跟兩岸的政策那做整體的所以啊所以問題就出在出在你們嗎"},{"start":8575.165,"end":8601.86,"text":"平潭到台灣因為疫情停止現在疫情沒了不開放那接著本席接著要問在馬政府時代我相信這個我們副主委或者是在座各位都是事務官你們應該都在相關單位在馬英九政府時代陸客來台一年五六百萬人然後我們台灣人去大陸大概三百多萬人"},{"start":8603.308,"end":8613.317,"text":"我們也沒說什麼平等互惠啊那為什麼到了這個前面這八年我們陸客來台就這麼少"},{"start":8615.563,"end":8635.641,"text":"剛剛很多委員在質詢說平等互惠你們都沒有說實話啊什麼叫平等互惠那現在接著本席來說明在今天你們的說明裡面報告裡面你提到4月28號就是前幾天你們的新聞稿"},{"start":8636.181,"end":8664.6,"text":"你們一直強調我方在就是我們台灣在112年去年的8月24號已經公佈相關規劃然後你結論說只要陸方開放即可實施那你為什麼不說你其實在今年的2月28號你就暫緩執行了還有剛剛很多委員都在問你們說我們是不是都還可以赴大陸你們說是其實這一塊是有但書的你228你已經喊"},{"start":8666.602,"end":8692.301,"text":"這個原規則原規劃戰難執行之後你只是把已經你宣布了以後人家已經這個民眾都已經登記人家也規劃好的你讓他還有一個緩衝期到5月底你其實是已經阻絕了那你還一直回答所有委員說我們都開放我們都開放我們哪裡有開放我們完全沒有開放啊這第一個再來"},{"start":8695.654,"end":8705.281,"text":"我們現在這個陸方我們這個20192019我們一直這個講說我們2019年來200多萬我們去300多萬對啊那時候可以200多萬現在然後我們去可以300多萬那為什麼現在不能開放"},{"start":8720.872,"end":8745.994,"text":"我們都規劃好,我們陸委會有沒有去跟大陸做溝通?我們的旅遊,陸客是有一個兩岸旅遊協議的那旅遊協議平台裡面就是有一個溝通管道所以那個部分兩邊的觀光主管部門是有持續在做溝通的持續在溝通,那溝通了什麼?"},{"start":8746.494,"end":8748.336,"text":"現在本席要問一個重點,我們現在是不是有限制一天陸客可以來多少人?上線,你請說"},{"start":8769.555,"end":8770.076,"text":"目前規劃是2000"},{"start":8786.491,"end":8787.751,"text":"跟委員報告這點你就應該要講啊"},{"start":8801.576,"end":8826.235,"text":"跟委員報告,因為過去我們沒有做限額的時候,我們看20...你不要講過去,我現在在談現在的政策,所以你現在兩千人...我就先跟您報告為什麼現在會先用兩千,我們就是拿2019年...好啦沒關係啊,所以你現在兩千人你只要回答我,你不要浪費我時間我們未來是可以放寬的啊請暫停,請暫停,我現在不讓你回答,請暫停,拜託主席,時間是我的是...是..."},{"start":8827.316,"end":8835.683,"text":"所以你現在2000人那你現在一天只能2000人你要他全部開放我請教你您知道福建省有多少人嗎"},{"start":8837.311,"end":8839.412,"text":"三千多萬人也比台灣兩千多萬多很多嘛"},{"start":8864.944,"end":8873.52,"text":"當然我們當然希望說他們能夠各省都來但是你現在你設定一天只有2000人你要人家怎麼來"},{"start":8875.382,"end":8893.846,"text":"好,這個我就講,今天如果我今天兩個廠商,我一天只能供應2000個產品,我拜託你,下一億的訂單,人家怎麼下?那是每天受理的,不是每天進來的人。一樣啊,對啊,那你就希望多嘛,你2000人一年滿的話,一年多少人?"},{"start":8897.107,"end":8919.358,"text":"只要一年多少嗎?兩千人一年多少人嗎?對啊,所以啊,我們不能一開始就設定那麼多,那麼多的期待,那很多業者就去投資了,然後到時候,那個像大陸突然又把它關掉了,那我們就,我們不想負責任了,逐步來放寬。所以你全部都假設性"},{"start":8919.898,"end":8938.864,"text":"他又停掉你有沒有去了解包括人家又停掉你有沒有去了解今天不好意思主席再給我幾十秒的時間今天假設你是在做生意我不相信有一個公司我原本有訂單突然沒訂單以後這個公司會說不要管他不要管他訂單就不要了你們有去溝通嗎完全沒有嘛"},{"start":8939.704,"end":8955.096,"text":"你們只得空喊話,你們只有放話我們做生意也不能說只做一家嘛當然沒有只做一家我們會考慮其他的往來的對象不是啊,那你每一家你都要掌握現在我們又在談論一家的業務嘛我們先2000嘛,如果真的順順利利我們還在開放嘛不要一開始就期待那麼大,然後大家都去投資你不要開放那麼多,可是你要人家來那麼多"},{"start":8965.424,"end":8988.283,"text":"你剛剛的回答一直都是這樣所以我沒關係我們就把這個呈現在國人面前讓我們台灣人民清楚知道過去大陸放所有城市來的時候我們也是有配額的限制啊不是現在才這樣子啊對過去過去這樣子所以其實即便過去都還輸給馬英九政府時代嗎所以你知道嗎"},{"start":8989.424,"end":8997.11,"text":"臺灣人民期待很久了因為臺灣的經濟蕭條大家都很希望能夠活絡還有最後我們開放農產品過去陸委會的立場是什麼我們的農產品輸大陸當然是OK啊所以我新竹縣很多的單局這個要很美要好是不是可以好了謝謝謝謝委員子學姐謝謝李副主委"},{"start":9017.487,"end":9032.622,"text":"李副主委請問你一下按照你這樣子邏輯的話農民就不要多種因為萬一哪一天大陸說我們不買你的農產物的時候那農民的東西就出不去所以你是不是要代表農委會也講話一下"},{"start":9033.783,"end":9046.743,"text":"我們一開始不要給大家那麼大的期待你是陸委會副主委耶你怎麼會變成在幫人民老百姓講說他不要投資因為我們要放多少個人來要去做準備"},{"start":9049.127,"end":9068.679,"text":"大家就越清楚．其實是李副主委、陸委會．你們早就有限制．大陸客來台灣的上限那這樣的上限你所說的．請你不要說話 召委沒有請你說是是 請召委不好意思 對不起"},{"start":9073.229,"end":9073.409,"text":"謝謝,謝謝政委"},{"start":9103.929,"end":9109.213,"text":"繼續我們請丁選中委員質詢丁選中委員質詢完畢之後我們要來處理臨時提案謝謝主席好我請我們交通部觀光署副署長有請周副署長謝謝"},{"start":9124.229,"end":9129.832,"text":"委員好 副市長好 副市長我們本年關齁這幾年來在我們中壢省關中齁 直接來對著高雄電的特性來開墾一些荒廢的地方 變成一些觀光"},{"start":9140.157,"end":9141.377,"text":"尤其是當我們後衛,我們後衛是一個文化的重點"},{"start":9159.622,"end":9171.167,"text":"我們在後有一些文化古蹟以外我們還是把一些文化古蹟都修繕好不管日經或夜經我們有家鄉一些觀光環境也創造很多我們的觀光林口但是我們還有一個很好的特色因為好位過去是因糖廠而起因糖廠而起後我們的糖廠這五分車現在是全台灣有的又有在運"},{"start":9189.474,"end":9195.259,"text":"感激的五分車。一共六年四月十四,蔡英文總統有去到河外找到五分車,說這是一個很好推廣的觀光商業,要求交通部列入前瞻計劃,推動觀光小火車。"},{"start":9213.135,"end":9218.864,"text":"一半空過的年六月二五﹐我們本地管政府﹐把舊的書送到交通部後﹐我們的小火車﹐跟這尊藥又沒有空的藥﹐這案現在到底是怎樣"},{"start":9227.425,"end":9254.707,"text":"與委員報告．好賣的湯青瓦去幾個街 蠻有特色的那雲林縣政府一些的前瞻觀光的提案那個觀光署都很支持 包含上一期的計畫像這個北港到湖北還有到這個金湖這邊的串聯所以我們相當支持提供3億以上的那個經費那這個觀光列車的部分這個可能還要再來瞭解一下但是那個"},{"start":9255.467,"end":9267.277,"text":"其他觀光的活動,不管是地方創生、觀光的活動,還是說觀光設施的建設,觀光署都非常支持雲仙建築。所以,分署長,我剛才說的就是針對我們這個通常的觀光小火車。同一時間,我們這個嘉義蒜頭也一樣有上出這個結尾。結果,我們是把這個結尾、這個經費全部蒜頭進行。"},{"start":9280.669,"end":9280.689,"text":"致電訪問"},{"start":9307.088,"end":9317.275,"text":"警官道路都已經 鐵路的警官都已經做好了都已經做好了 啊 管政委員 後面還要講完 起來我們中央 去我們交通部要來要求說 我們交通部已經把經費掛了 才行 跟之前都沒什麼事 欸 教委員報告齁因為 我的理解是 那個 要用的自行車道啦 自行車道有塞進去 跟那個方位 跟北港齁 這個自行車道的串聯 那自行車道的交通部"},{"start":9335.126,"end":9345.852,"text":"自行車道是反自行車道我講的這個觀光小火車這是我們後衛的特色這是特色自行小火車那個自行車的車道那四格都有四格都有我講的是地方的特色不是講這個自行車道而已我們為什麼要將對地方的特色"},{"start":9359.44,"end":9368.354,"text":"來推廣才對：讓這個律師可以因為都老了：讓這個律師可以讓全國的人去到好位：了解到我們這個唐產文化：對吧"},{"start":9370.916,"end":9386.208,"text":"所以這案我們可以繼續下去執行委員報告這案我回來再了解因為我上一次余烈先生沒有提案是沒有看到這案委員所提案不是啦 因為我在說這案已經消案了在我們交通部這裡說消案了"},{"start":9396.676,"end":9403.34,"text":"香港事實上我是這段沒有這個資料的照你講齁這是推動電影館公司嘛你是責無方待對啊這是你責無方待要下去做才對不是說這個這個這殺雞什麼交通法殺雞殺雞提入局提入局殺雞經濟法啊殺來殺去殺到殺死人總要放假你"},{"start":9421.601,"end":9421.901,"text":"有請李副主委"},{"start":9449.015,"end":9457.219,"text":"副主委好 第一次看到你剛才我在電視、在現場也看到很多委員針對我們這個七層我們這個大陸大陸恢復到福建基金會跟我們做這個旅遊已經也恢復到我們這個福建平潭跟我們做客運這個客運的輪船已經可以開始行駛了我認為"},{"start":9478.763,"end":9483.405,"text":"我聽到說我們陸委會的恢復是因為其他的恢復沒有開放這個案件沒有符合對等開放的原則也不是觀光理由的一個常態我在這裡覺得奇怪我們政府叫你說我們是要針對全民的福利、全民的利益為優先才對不是用政治角力的方式"},{"start":9504.838,"end":9504.898,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9520.259,"end":9528.305,"text":"法定要觀光客開來,法定要觀光客開,我們也是一個國家,我們不是副屬單位,我們都認為我們是一個國家,我們是一個國家,我們用我們國家跟國家對談的方式,我們大家互相,大家在交流,"},{"start":9539.013,"end":9543.241,"text":"發展觀光客開放,你對我有誠意,我對你也要釋出善意,你不能一直說我們已經開始對你有誠意,我們觀光局限我們自己"},{"start":9550.711,"end":9551.992,"text":"現在各單位正在演繹當中"},{"start":9572.779,"end":9575.301,"text":"我們現在來處理臨時題案今天臨時題案共五案我們請宣讀"},{"start":9606.021,"end":9630.852,"text":"2023年8月﹐我國大陸委員會曾釋出善意表示期望以平等互惠原則﹐期望我國與中國同時開放進團令﹐雖然會中國回應我國交通部仍於2023年11月宣布開放定額團客附中﹐然而中國不但無平等互惠回應﹐甚至更進一步於2024年1月偏偏宣布M503航線更貼近海峽中線﹐逼近我國限航區且公告開放W122、W123西向東航路﹐"},{"start":9631.272,"end":9651.143,"text":"造成我國空房壓力顯示我國在對中交流、溝通上的真心幻覺情為我國被迫恢復進團、克服中民主義之一在我國提出嚴正抗議後中國仍未經國際規範堅持於2024年4月19日拼命啟用W12、W23西向東航路造成區域航行及飛航管制作業複雜度增加"},{"start":9651.543,"end":9677.494,"text":"亦有天候不良或航氣飛行操作異常時﹐大幅升高飛安風險﹐雖中國文化和旅遊部於2024年4月28日率先宣布恢復福建居民到馬祖旅遊﹐然中國對台的威嚇及善意比例相符與否仍有可疑之處﹐因此﹐大陸委員會因會頭相關部會在以捍衛對等交流為前提﹐研議我國是否開放組團附中及開放範圍﹐並持續提出措施協助或輔導受影響業者﹐提案人為蘇巧慧等6人﹐"},{"start":9680.885,"end":9704.238,"text":"民事提案二,觀光產業的復興重點在人流,為0403花蓮大地震致敬,花東地區觀光產業因雲震不斷導致國人不願前往旅遊。如今,大陸文旅部經宣布,開放大陸福建民眾赴馬祖旅遊,為兩岸觀光帶來曙光。馬祖國家風景管理處處長黃詩芳表示,開放旅客將為馬祖地區帶來五億元的觀光收入,逐漸人流對觀光產業新城市有極大關聯。"},{"start":9704.958,"end":9725.543,"text":"政府除訂定0403花東地區觀光附贈獎勵措施外更應積極爭取大陸遊客直航花東進行觀光藉由人潮刺激花東地區的觀光產業復甦委員提案要求大陸委員會、交通部與一個月內就陸客團直航花東地區提出書面報告以立花東地區觀光產業附贈提案人委員黃建斌等5人"},{"start":9726.443,"end":9749.094,"text":"民事提案3。0403大地震對花蓮縣造成極大極大的傷害政府將主要資源投入花蓮徵災重建實屬因緯而花東地區產業是一脈相連尤其是觀光產業不僅花蓮受到極大傷害臺東縣觀光產業令也因地震受到牽連如今花蓮地區域正不斷連帶造成國人不願前往臺東地區觀光而近臺東縣旅宿業平均地方域只剩三成"},{"start":9749.634,"end":9772.293,"text":"比往年高達八成地方率大幅減少若遊客遲遲不來臺東縣有旅俗業者經營不下去花東的相關產業發展是唇齒下陰尤其觀光產業更是如此原要求交通部觀光署應就零四零三華聯大地震後臺東縣觀光產業輔助措施演繹相關獎輔助措施並比照前進一花東高屏暖冬遊模式"},{"start":9772.993,"end":9799.28,"text":"補助國民國內旅遊藉此引導國人前往臺東地區觀光工創花東地區觀光榮景提案人為黃建斌等5人。臨時提案4.近年04年03年大地震後,凸顯花東地區交通的脆弱性,再者從921大地震經驗來看,大地震過後地質相關不穩定,如遇大雨亦發生土石流災害,而4月22日大雨就造成臺九縣土石流。"},{"start":9800.06,"end":9825.065,"text":"公路鐵路因而一度中斷,坐實了花東地區北上交通孔將進入不穩定的狀態政府應就相關問題儘早進行妥善規劃,如增加花東地區無返客直轄市班機機票減免與鐵路優惠票價降低對交通中斷對花東地區居民的影響：提案要求交通部於一個月內提出書面報告以維護花東地區住民通行權益提案人為黃建斌等5人"},{"start":9826.705,"end":9843.245,"text":"臨時提案五,案有未促進兩岸觀光交流,進請交通部、陸委會等相關部會立即開放福建平台往返臺灣的客運運輸,推動福建民眾赴臺團客旅遊,必利人民往返兩岸更為便利,增加民間互動瞭解,兩岸將創造互惠互利雙贏,是中華民國之行,是2350萬全民之福。"},{"start":9846.228,"end":9861.038,"text":"說明一位出境兩岸傭兵本113年4月28日由代表民意的17位國會議員出訪大陸出境兩岸和平交流、良性溝通、理性對話避免惡意螺旋不斷上升民進黨做不到不願意做不想做只有國民黨積極做、努力做、認真在做"},{"start":9861.738,"end":9889.667,"text":"二﹐大陸官方接連宣布﹐君主花蓮正在簽民組合屋﹐開放文單又恢復輸入﹐重啟大陸福建居民赴馬祖觀光及福建省政府新一波十三鄉會台措施﹐成果豐碩﹐這些成果也再次證明兩岸不管官方還是民間﹐只要理性溝通、良心對話﹐收回的絕對是臺灣的百貢百業﹐全體善良的臺灣民眾﹐兩岸絕對不是只有對抗衝突﹐民進黨所堅持的抗中保台﹐事實上是持續害台﹐讓第一螺旋越加上升"},{"start":9890.767,"end":9910.143,"text":"3.基於兩岸和平交流並符合未來耐總統的主張,工程黨要與民選合法的執政黨對談。因此,相關會台措施將與520接任的耐慶德政府應積極回應落實處理,如何多元交流,活絡兩岸經貿觀光旅遊活動,人民往返兩岸更便利是當務之急。提案人委員徐宇珍等6人。宣讀完畢"},{"start":9911.796,"end":9923.164,"text":"主席再次宣布,第一案照案通過,第二、第三、第四案完成溝通,然後有一些文字修正也按照修正通過。現在是提案五的部分。"},{"start":9939.949,"end":9941.189,"text":"民進黨提的臨時提案有跟國民黨的人討論過嗎?所以你們是有意見是不是?"},{"start":9958.663,"end":9965.229,"text":"第一案跟第五案我們現在溝通一下第二、第三、第四案已經完成溝通按照修正文字通過我們休息五分鐘來溝通一下第一案跟第五案謝謝"},{"start":10778.066,"end":10780.769,"text":"2023年8月,我國大陸委員會曾釋出善意表示期望以"},{"start":10793.544,"end":10797.49,"text":"第二項期望我國的我國修正為臺灣稅務或中國回應"},{"start":10810.261,"end":10828.318,"text":"期望我國與中國修正為期望台灣與大陸未獲中國回應修正為未獲大陸回應第5行必進我國限行區修正為必進台灣限行區"},{"start":10832.338,"end":10845.987,"text":"請問在場的委員,這樣子的文字修正?好,我們就按照這樣的修正文字通過,來第五案。臨時提案五,案由未促進兩岸觀光前面增加台灣與大陸。"},{"start":10849.328,"end":10874.395,"text":"說明一 後段的避免惡意螺旋到最後這一整段刪除說明二 民進黨所堅持的抗中保台事實上是持續害台讓地域螺旋越加上升這段文字刪除好 請問一下國民黨這樣的文字說這樣OK好 我們第五案按照這樣的修正文字通過謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":10877.332,"end":10899.372,"text":"好,我們現在就...好,我們現在不休息,我們繼續開會,大家辛苦了好,我們繼續請廖先祥我們現在請廖先祥委員來做質詢,謝謝"},{"start":10915.106,"end":10920.394,"text":"好,謝謝召委,那麻煩幫我邀請我們李副主委,還有公安署的周副署長"},{"start":10928.933,"end":10952.089,"text":"好,謝謝我們兩位長官那今天當然就是主要針對兩岸的觀光來做一個討論那其實觀光業者其實對業者來講,國土最重要那其實對政治或是意識形態對他們來說都是其次的他們只希望能夠有一個溫飽希望有一個好的收益那這一次"},{"start":10954.383,"end":10981.631,"text":"有關我們國民黨團赴對岸去做一些溝通討論之後那陸方也有發一些新聞稿嘛 對不對那我想先請教一下這幾年這個台灣的觀光業確實他們反應過的不是太好我想確認一下最近觀光署的部分最近一次我們的統計我們台灣的觀光逆差來到了多少你有沒有最近一次的統計你有沒有印象無論是"},{"start":10984.847,"end":11008.279,"text":"上半年,今天上半年到位一次統計,或者是去年,這方面應該是每年都有統計嘛,最近一次的統計資料大概是區間的時候那金額多少,你有印象嗎?委員的意思是觀光逆差?金額?這個我要查一下你要查一下?但原則上應該是有一個相當大金額的逆差,沒有錯嘛對不對?"},{"start":11010.333,"end":11010.693,"text":"臺灣的觀光經濟都是逆差的"},{"start":11029.446,"end":11056.106,"text":"如果說這一次陸方如果說因為我們只有階段性的討論假設陸方開放他們的民眾福建民眾到媽祖旅遊以及福建的居民到臺灣這個團客開放以及我們臺灣赴這個平潭的海上客運這個都開放這三個都如果說到開放的情況下對我國的對我們臺灣的"},{"start":11059.188,"end":11077.098,"text":"經濟觀光逆差會不會有幫助?你們的評估?應該是正向的。一定是正向的嘛。如果說這三個都能夠完成的話,好多是正向的嘛對不對?那現在,現在只有第一個前提有辦法做到嘛,就是說這個陸方來到媽祖的部分是有辦法做到的嘛。"},{"start":11077.718,"end":11102.758,"text":"因為已經宣布了我們也沒有受阻礙所以它就是已經達成了那接下來就是兩個東西要來達成就是平潭對台方的我們台灣對平潭的一個海上客運以及福建居民來到我們台灣做做這個團客的旅遊那既然這兩項都開放對我們台灣的觀光逆差有幫助的話那請問一下我們現在斟酌的點大概在哪一邊"},{"start":11105.836,"end":11106.457,"text":"行點恢復是海運還是平台?"},{"start":11124.83,"end":11150.874,"text":"因為航點的恢復過去其實跟觀光我們是分開來就是說只要有需求然後就像我們空運的航點我們已經放15個定期航班13個可以包機但是那13個包機到現在都沒有包成嘛那海運的加開也是要看有沒有客源等等那這些都在跨部會的討論當中那剛剛應該前面有委員有問到然後可以問具體一點"},{"start":11151.614,"end":11172.787,"text":"我們現在跨部會的一個針對這個平潭到台灣的這個海運的客運赴航我們有沒有定一個時間點要召集各部會來做討論這個部分因為航運是交通部在主管所以會由交通部這邊來所以我們收到通知了沒所以交通部也有來嗎"},{"start":11175.105,"end":11188.877,"text":"時間定了沒?我想他們還沒通知之前,我們自己就會募了,當然會開始做一些...你們多久以內可以做相關的會議的討論?召開會議討論?我們會禁訴吧。好不好,直接給我一個時間,多久以內?有沒有辦法這樣子?交通部?防政司司長。是,包委,這部分我們會跟陸委會一起禁訴來研議。禁訴多久啦?給一個時間啦,不是禁訴一年兩年,還是一個禮拜兩個禮拜?"},{"start":11202.639,"end":11203.559,"text":"繼續我們請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":11244.446,"end":11271.299,"text":"主席、國務委員、有請陸委會有請李副主委還有觀光署的周副署長兩位好都是公務員出身嗎對,我們都是朝廣觀我也是公務員出身我們看這次陸委會的報告陸方"},{"start":11273.664,"end":11300.997,"text":"恢復陸客來台觀光之內容及雙方規劃差異第一段引述了這個大陸方面的一個說明當然文字不完全一樣這個沒有關係我們陸委會的報告裡面也提到雙方規劃差異然後這些提到這些陸委會的報告也提到這個"},{"start":11302.711,"end":11329.939,"text":"本會、交通部及相關機關稀時間釐清所涉相關事宜,妥慎處理,以利後續實際執行,確保有序交流,並符合臺灣整體利益。我們看這個陳建仁院長他對於這個大陸的一個宣布他直接說"},{"start":11331.42,"end":11357.974,"text":"對於相關回應臺灣早就已經準備好了跟你前面我剛唸的這個陸委會的說明那個觀光署的還提到那個另外一個事情你的報告我都沒有引用你還提到另外一個事情所以這個部分那我先問陸委會李副主委這個"},{"start":11360.442,"end":11386.495,"text":"陳建仁院長說早就準備好了是如何他指的應該就是陸客來台的部分對啊我們準備好了怎麼還要你這邊的報告裡面還要再稀時間還要時間釐清然後妥善處理這個部分這個"},{"start":11389.03,"end":11417.06,"text":"還是不要那麼保守還是你們當然公務員嘛寫上去之後上面改了有可能所以這個部分前幾天宣布的內容是這個陳院長提的他是4月29號的新聞所以是前一天就講所以這個部分這個我們"},{"start":11418.874,"end":11443.113,"text":"如果回顧這個回顧從過去兩岸的交流從戒嚴戒嚴然後解嚴的第二年就開放大陸探親對不對我們先開放的包括一切後續的都是我們先開放"},{"start":11445.091,"end":11467.359,"text":"作為臺灣作為一個自由民主法治的國家我們號稱自由民主法治國家我們還是在現行的法律被明定為威權統治時期法律有明定威權統治時期當然這是這幾年定的"},{"start":11472.318,"end":11490.342,"text":"被認為威權統治時期的時候就開放了所以這個陸委會還有觀光署你們要把這個因為新的主委要進來了新的部長也要進來了你要把這個整個過程寫得詳詳細細從來就是我們先對不對因為他對我們有利嘛"},{"start":11503.066,"end":11504.367,"text":"新的主委也很了解"},{"start":11533.369,"end":11534.19,"text":"委員好 副主委好"},{"start":11561.636,"end":11583.784,"text":"副主委根據兩岸人民關係條例第五條之一的規定那我們各級地方的政府機關公務人員或者是各級的民意代表沒有經過盧委會的授權不得與大陸地區人民法人團體或者是其他機關用任何形式簽署協議可以請副主委解釋一下任何形式協商是什麼嗎"},{"start":11585.185,"end":11597.446,"text":"這是指那個涉及公權力的部分的協商是還有簽署協議那這個要經過授權那簽署協議一定是要指書面簽署才算嗎"},{"start":11601.535,"end":11614.543,"text":"因為現在的協議呈現方式也不一定是書面如果口頭協議發生了書面協議的效果算是符合兩岸的民間條例裡面簽署協議嗎?"},{"start":11616.511,"end":11636.323,"text":"這個要看各案實質來做認定是那副委員他率團到中國是會見中國政協主席王惠寧那在他們協商之後那中國武林部宣布開放福建民眾駙馬族旅遊並將在平潭與台灣海上客運恢復後恢復福建民眾來台團體旅遊"},{"start":11638.524,"end":11658.067,"text":"那翻成白話我們簡單講講就是副委員跟中國談完之後那中國就以副條件現區域的方式來恢復陸客來台觀光那這是不是所謂的口頭協議卻發生了書面協議的效果那如果是這樣的話是不是有違反兩岸關係人民條例的第五之一條"},{"start":11662.484,"end":11676.264,"text":"這個應該我們還得再仔細的看這個過程因為我相信副委員對於相關法律規定都很熟悉而且不只有副委員還有好多位的委員都有去"},{"start":11676.804,"end":11700.804,"text":"對 我們必須要有一個完整的指引現在不是我們委員熟不熟悉我們又要針對個別委員或者是要恭喜我的同僚但是我們的法令要非常的清晰這樣是不是符合書面協議的效果那這樣有沒有違反條例的精神要先講清楚不要讓這些我們的這些國會的同僚那去有觸法的嫌疑嘛"},{"start":11702.865,"end":11727.91,"text":"我們要再請我們的法政單位來做進一步的研究我個人是反對這樣子的做法因為沒有經過入委會的授權那這樣去做是不對的但是我們更希望說作為主管局的話你的入委會那要講清楚說明白為什麼因為口頭協議跟書面協議它可能會產生未來政治問題假設如果未來有另外一批"},{"start":11728.49,"end":11756.867,"text":"我不管地方的議員也好或者是未來的其他的立法委員也好再去中國再談出來另外一個協議他沒有簽署但是會有實質效果影響到我國在國際社會的這個說話權或者是影響到我國在國際的這些認知那怎麼辦他一樣沒有他只是口頭喔但是他一定要他不是書面的簽署但是他一樣有他政治的效應甚至是有實質的政策的影響那這樣的話陸委會怎麼辦"},{"start":11758.737,"end":11759.258,"text":"針對兩岸人民關係條例"},{"start":11775.973,"end":11802.586,"text":"他重點的精神非常重要不要以任何的協商達成涉及臺灣地區公權力的這個協議那這會影響到我們的國際空間我想還是要強調不可以說是因為口頭的方式然後就說這沒有違反到五之一條那其實它是有影響的那實質上面的影響是直接某種程度已經直接造成了我剛剛講到的負條件、限期域不對等的這樣子的開放我覺得這是不對的"},{"start":11803.607,"end":11804.148,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11816.397,"end":11832.993,"text":"我看兩岸關係會走到這個地步還是我們太多國會議員基本的法律常識都沒有那我等一下 我要幫陸委會回答這個議題啦這個 怎麼叫 deal 協議 agreement deal 嘛對方提一個 offer 我們要一個 counter offer 才叫 deal agreement"},{"start":11833.853,"end":11856.041,"text":"中間這些國會議員只是去做溝通的工作對方提出一個offer我們這邊公權如果沒有counter offer就是說同意就不會成為一個deal哪會成為一個協議呢是前期的溝通工作這是基本的法制ABC沒關係所以兩人關係會走到地步就有人什麼很多人什麼都不懂然後就講出一些莫名其妙破壞這個努力的人工作的那個想法副主委我們有請副主委法務部"},{"start":11859.163,"end":11859.845,"text":"法務部司長、海基會副秘書長"},{"start":11866.851,"end":11890.581,"text":"副主委我剛剛聽到您說有在提到說大陸開放這個馬祖這個部分附近大馬祖旅遊這個部分那你們事實上本來就已經做好規劃開放金門馬祖也是同意的你們是希望連金門都一起開放嗎當然所以大陸沒有開放這個大陸開放的部分門開的很小對不對"},{"start":11893.355,"end":11899.278,"text":"門開得很小啦我都可以說你不用擔心我們這個部分我們也支持開放金門嗎當然沒問題所以我們不用被動嘛我們現在是被動說等到陸方同意開放我們就來實施我們可以主動啊我們主動說宣布金門開放讓大陸來嘛"},{"start":11914.245,"end":11936.452,"text":"我們是已經開放我們是說實現一定要對方也放客人才行所以你一樣你跟大陸玩一樣的遊戲嘛一個前提大陸就說那個0214先解決你又說一定要他開放你現在他已經先主動開放馬祖了嘛沒有任何的前提他已經開放馬祖開了一個小小的縫你也可以說我們主動因為你剛剛也是支持嘛沒錯吧我們已經開放啦所以說你說我們已經假如他們送件我們就所以說現在"},{"start":11939.973,"end":11961.425,"text":"太好了,這個答案就是我要的,我們事實上開放大陸,你就是現在宣布我們是開放入客到金門來嗎?到金門來嗎?你這樣再講一次吧我們去年就已經說9月底之後,我們就歡迎大陸放他們的客人到台灣來好,那就沒有任何前提嘛,所以只要大陸願意送件就可以過來嘛,就可以到金門嘛"},{"start":11962.767,"end":11970.697,"text":"這個沒有問題嗎?當然我看到你們這個報告第一頁裡頭說也是想說什麼只要陸方同意開放那這個不要設前提啊反正你們就宣布開放嘛"},{"start":11972.313,"end":11997.889,"text":"你剛剛的意思是不用設前提啦開放那他要不要開放是他的事嘛他要放才能實現沒錯他要放是他的事情他不放自然我們的百姓業者也會反過去要求啊對吧就不要大家不要一直雞生蛋蛋等到你開放我才開放你才開放嘛不過你剛剛先講到因為我要講金門的部分所以金門部分沒有問題啦金門部分已經就說反正已經開放就等大陸開放而已啦大陸只要就讓他自己送建反正你們會准啦你只要告訴我這一句就好了"},{"start":12000.871,"end":12013.512,"text":"好 謝謝然後接著那個沒有開放的原因是0214這個的這個就是那個就是海巡那時候有兩個漁民刀在漁民這個溺水了那溺水 陸委會跟海基會你們現在跟刀有沒有溝通的管道"},{"start":12015.66,"end":12043.768,"text":"海峽除了這個文書這種往來以外有沒有什麼溝通的管道以前海峽都扮演很重要的角色陸委會我想我們針對這個事件就是政府的主託我們有發函到海峽發函然後呢對然後答案呢就是那個兩位大陸漁民在金門這個影響金門很大那另外就是說我們也是在當地幫助那兩位沒有沒有你們跟大陸我們要當地大陸大陸那邊海峽對於我們的發函他沒有給我們正式的回覆沒有任何回應就對了沒有給正式回覆有沒有讀你也不知道"},{"start":12045.188,"end":12045.368,"text":"法務部"},{"start":12074.788,"end":12089.023,"text":"請問一下 現在大陸的事實上 要求去做上次的這個上次到3月份以後嘛3月份以後的這個事情繼續往下 大家繼續往下談那這個請問法務部 金門地警署這個案子到底還要偵辦多久金門地警署現在仍然在偵辦中"},{"start":12094.028,"end":12119.964,"text":"已經申辦多久了這個是這個多重大的事情啊卡住手情來這個你看一下徵查不公開作為辦法第8條有齁這個這些東西齁這個為了維護公共利益這已經涉及到全金門的這個公共利益了合法權益齁有必要可以適度徵這個揭露嘛齁然後這個重大的矚目這應該是社會矚目案件了吧這個社會矚目案件很大啊你們是不是趕快的說明啊什麼時候會辦好呢"},{"start":12121.65,"end":12147.108,"text":"因為現在的偵查中是已經將相關的一些這些事證送請專家鑑定在鑑定還要多久呢那因為這涉及到第三方的一個鑑定所以這個時程是要依照鑑定的這個所以你們都不知道多久對不對所以整個金門發展會因為你們法務部的這個辭職而受到影響跟委員說明就是說可不可以辦快一點呢這個時間可以嗎趕快有一個結果出來嘛"},{"start":12148.206,"end":12148.606,"text":"現在都已經二月到四月五月啦 三個月了"},{"start":12163.8,"end":12187.058,"text":"那涉及到這個鑑定的這個復雜面向等等這些反正你也沒有辦法說什麼那我再問部長那對不起再一分鐘喔最後一個是喔我向陸委會不知道有沒有看到喔我看到剛剛很多委員回答還是在意識形態的東西現在我們看到兩岸的這個領導人不管是賴清德總統或是習近平總書記他們現在事實上兩邊都在互相釋放出善意啦我想陸委會應該有觀察到這一點吧"},{"start":12188.519,"end":12188.719,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12208.169,"end":12208.409,"text":"黃孟楷委員"},{"start":12233.513,"end":12244.909,"text":"主席謝謝我想先請我們陸委會副主委、海基會副秘書長跟我們觀光署副署長蔡副秘書長還有周副署長我想在開始質詢之前我也一樣就是說真的"},{"start":12250.902,"end":12278.505,"text":"我們兩岸能夠要有自信、平等、對等的往來但絕對不是這種我們自己的政治意識形態作祟然後執政黨的委員在這邊拿是是而非的問題就是拜託我們的官員一定要順著他的話來答那如果說沒有順著他話的話套不出話好像自己沒有這個台階下很難堪說沒有簽署但有實際效果啊口頭啊那行政部門怎麼因應呢無限上綱"},{"start":12279.466,"end":12307.124,"text":"如果這樣的話賴清德總統候選人在之前選舉的時候還說要跟習近平吃蝦仁飯欸阿這個有沒有違反所以真的拜託我們國會殿堂裡面要拿出來的質詢真的有點品質否則的話官員我都為你們感到汗顏你們講是也不對講不是也不對因為執政黨的委員阿得罪不起阿是不是這樣沒有委員的你剛還一抹微笑我覺得你剛那微笑蠻真誠可愛的"},{"start":12308.726,"end":12337.917,"text":"介入你剛剛的一個化解你的尷尬我不是要給你尷尬我也不是要挖洞給你跳因為我真的看不下去我覺得說如果一個委員他就拿著助理準備好的稿甚至可能是中央廚房的稿就是來這邊一定要把他的話然後執政黨政治意識形態塞給官員就是要官員裡面回答就是要罵罵一下我們的傅坤祺總召罵一下我們的藍委17位藍委好像這樣子就可以回去交差了事我覺得你們真的不用配合"},{"start":12340.144,"end":12366.449,"text":"來我先請教一下今天我看到主委9點半離開了所以有要工那我們的準主委今天也沒有來那新就任主委大家都不願意過來那是在迴避什麼520就要上任了我們這個重要議題非常重要尤其是我們現在要討論的是說未來6月1號可能又要限縮我們的觀光產業那我們現在講啊"},{"start":12367.694,"end":12384.151,"text":"中國大陸那邊釋出橄欖枝他們也講是說希望能夠恢復福建跟馬祖的這個旅遊還有這個通過檢疫的文旦銷路最直接是觀光類群組馬上大漲而且農民也回答說樂觀其成套一句陳建仁院長講的話股市上萬點你們不高興嗎"},{"start":12388.39,"end":12417.189,"text":"那觀光產業歡欣鼓舞難道政府不高興嗎難道政府不喜歡嗎那既然都已經有那麼善意的回應了現在居然還講不管是王國才部長不管是我們相關的單位講說還要再研議不知道說對岸的這個善意有多大然後還說對岸的善意沒有不符合期待那我想請教研議多久會有一個結果我們會盡快"},{"start":12417.871,"end":12445.239,"text":"盡快是多久找哪一些單位來研議目前主要就是交通部陸委會還有內政部吧由陸委會主揪找相關部會來研議是不是陸客的部分當然是陸委會陸客來台的部分所以什麼時候要正式發通知因為過去本席也在這裡委員會裡面質詢很多次啊我問說那個禁團利6月1號禁團利到底是誰下命令啊"},{"start":12445.919,"end":12474.579,"text":"沒有人有回答欸進團令6月1號限制沒有人有回答欸我問觀光署觀光署你們下命令但是誰給你們指令是交通部部長嗎沒有回答欸就推給國安單位欸就說是因為是國安欸你們拿觀光發展條例明明是這種跟國安八竿子打不相關的然後可以來限制旅行業者那現在在主揪"},{"start":12477.231,"end":12504.008,"text":"來,什麼時候主揪?你們要討論、研議?本期是想知道進度。陸客來台是陸委會,我們會盡快。盡快是多快?這個禮拜?就陸委會的部分,馬祖是即刻就可以嘛,只要有客人來我們當然就可以實現。那團客的部分我們就還要看前面那個條件能不能達成。那這個部分交通部就會盡快來做。交通部還是陸委會?"},{"start":12505.345,"end":12533.724,"text":"航點的恢復是交通部是啊來那副署長剛陸委會講說會盡快我不知道他的盡快是多快因為這個沒有量化你的盡快可能是一個小時兩個小時我比較急性子啊我可能盡快會是說就立即處理啊那副署長現在他要把球踢給你囉他說這個是你們交通部的我想這個我們會會跟那個相關部會一起來演繹啦太好了又是演繹來什麼時候演繹"},{"start":12536.621,"end":12563.997,"text":"什麼時候演繹給客氣、給方便不是當隨便本席現在在國會殿堂質詢我尊重你們是文官尊重你們今天是副署長、副主委是副手但是不是給方便當隨便隨便回答盡快演繹什麼時候演繹"},{"start":12569.571,"end":12578.864,"text":"因為剛剛的臨時提案也有提到一個航點的部分嗎?臨時提案只是航點,沒有說開放全部的入客。"},{"start":12584.993,"end":12611.513,"text":"還是你有回去我現在講的是6月1號的進團例要研議針對現在有善意之前也講是說要善意那現在講說不符合期待那怎麼樣的期待才是符合你們的期待要不要給出標準那以及如果說講說現在的這樣的一個部分要不要來去做討論6月1號進團例要不要解除這是觀光產業大家都在看的這是飯店、旅遊、住宿、觀光、餐飲業者大家都期盼的"},{"start":12613.083,"end":12625.109,"text":"你們一直命令就把我們的觀光產業給封鎖那現在再問你們你們講說越演繹人家是性命身家都在相關的產業發展欸好意思嗎?趙偉站起來我尊重趙偉但我真的"},{"start":12639.926,"end":12669.087,"text":"很嚴正地講這個議題那麼的嚴肅站在對等、平等、尊嚴以及讓我們台灣2350萬人大家市場有飯碗的情況下如果你們這樣的行政官員的態度520前只是想要混時間等到新任主委再上來新任部長再上來副手就是今天來罵一罵今天誰倒楣、誰抽籤、誰抽刀被指派來大家站著倒不如"},{"start":12670.097,"end":12683.876,"text":"倒不如就不要上班了,薪水不要領,國人還看得比較舒服一點。好,非常謝謝洪孟凱委員的質詢,謝謝。我們請相關部會首長還有在場的官員們體諒一下,剛剛昭偉也講到"},{"start":12687.045,"end":12687.605,"text":"繼續我們請鄭正前委員來質詢"},{"start":12721.105,"end":12747.785,"text":"主席好,我想請一下陸委會的副主委李立貞副主委還有我們交通部觀光署的副署長周廷章,周副署長非常感謝主席今天特別安排了針對陸方開放大陸觀光客來台具體回應及作為這樣的一個主題那我在想說其實很多委員也都問了其實我對於整個陸委會跟那個"},{"start":12749.426,"end":12749.826,"text":"副主委"},{"start":12776.822,"end":12795.542,"text":"這個部分因為還涉及到跨部會的協商我想我們會盡快對 就盡快就是你剛剛回憶其實那個剛剛洪柏海委員也非常的深情因為盡快這兩個字就拖了很久包括之前大家在追為什麼6月1號就是團客不能再去大陸這部分的一個決策"},{"start":12795.922,"end":12796.082,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12818.575,"end":12818.915,"text":"我們會建議是我們會建議"},{"start":12848.223,"end":12876.764,"text":"你們會建議賴清德總統在520講稿當中很具體回應兩岸旅客交流兩岸旅客交流的問題是不是因為這個總統的講稿並不是陸委會你剛才提到說你們會建議嗎那我希望你們繼續努力因為520是一個很重要的一個時間點如果賴清德在520講稿當中具體的回應這個事情我相信所有的"},{"start":12877.825,"end":12877.985,"text":"旅遊業者．"},{"start":12893.148,"end":12894.909,"text":"請問交通部,平潭和台灣的客運,什麼時候可以走?"},{"start":12920.515,"end":12943.393,"text":"這部分我們目前也正在跟陸委會在研議中還是陸委會嘛還是在研議嘛預計什麼時候可以做一個政策宣示因為平潭跟台灣當中的一個客運以前就有在走是因為疫情才停下來改成貨運那現在客運要走有什麼困難嗎副主委"},{"start":12945.454,"end":12961.039,"text":"政策宣示是一件事情 客源不客源是市場面臨的問題你們政策都沒有宣布去考慮客源的問題 這不是一個化石天竺的事情嗎你們政策都沒有定 政策定了之後市場怎麼樣走是後續的問題"},{"start":12963.217,"end":12963.878,"text":"這個我們就會盡快來做宣示"},{"start":12983.957,"end":13011.522,"text":"因為這兩件事情如果開了那我覺得兩岸的觀光旅遊就可以逐步的回復正常就是你們講的一個部分能夠逐步落實回復陸客主團來台觀光的政策對於台灣的觀光旅遊相關的業者才是一個救命單所以我們希望就是因為你們的意識無關你們今天來擋這個部分我也覺得你們很可憐因為"},{"start":13012.862,"end":13031.607,"text":"民進黨在兩岸政策當中無能對話的能力都沒有那現在在野黨把這個兩岸旅遊的溝通的門先把它打開來了對方釋出了善意不管善意有大有小都是善意重點是現在無能的民進黨怎麼去應應"},{"start":13033.807,"end":13053.287,"text":"兩岸這樣的議題把這個球接好才能夠真正讓兩岸的旅遊觀光業進入常軌好不好那剛剛講到兩個時間點請就是副主委去努力一下然後希望把這個政策開放在520的那個總統就職演講當中的時候能夠把它呈現出來好不好"},{"start":13053.968,"end":13057.769,"text":"臨時提案有請我們的交通部陸委會相關部會要立即開放福建平坦往返臺灣的客運運輸"},{"start":13074.867,"end":13099.783,"text":"然後推動福建民眾赴台團客旅遊請大家回去的時候告訴即將接任的這個主委也好或者是其他相關的請他們無縫接軌好不好謝謝繼續我們請莊瑞雄莊瑞雄莊瑞雄委員不在吳思堯吳思堯吳思堯委員不在"},{"start":13100.543,"end":13109.169,"text":"紅森漢委員不在羅志強委員不在傅坤祺委員不在邱志偉委員不在謝一鳳委員不在楊瓊英委員不在游浩委員不在"},{"start":13123.17,"end":13134.834,"text":"臨德福臨德福臨德福委員不在羅明才羅明才羅明才委員不在王宏威王宏威王宏威委員不在現在請葉元之委員質詢我要請那個陸委會"},{"start":13151.377,"end":13154.674,"text":"好 交通部觀光署有請李副主委及周副署長 謝謝"},{"start":13162.934,"end":13189.315,"text":"兩位官員好我想問一下因為我們副總召到大陸去嘛大陸有一些開放然後又有一些對台的一些比較善意啦我想問一下到底現在我們政府的態度到底是什麼因為我這幾天看民進黨的很多回應我有點錯亂有的立委呢民進黨的立委是講說不要養人鼻息啊小恩小惠不要也罷這是民進黨很多立委的說法"},{"start":13189.835,"end":13199.786,"text":"那陳建仁院長的說法是說這是善意我們會研議之後再回應請問一下到底現在民進黨態度到底是什麼政府的態度到底是什麼可不可以比較明確告訴我們"},{"start":13202.557,"end":13225.763,"text":"但是就陸委會的部分對陸客來台觀光我們就是是樂見嘛那既然陸方已經有開了馬祖那這個我們就可以馬上來實施那其他有一些附條件的這個部分我們就要跨部會來做進一步所以你們認為是善意是不是陸委會他都認為是善意嘛那觀光署覺得是善意嗎"},{"start":13227.851,"end":13236.905,"text":"歡迎你們對於民進黨這些人一直說不要養人鼻息這個是養套殺這很爛不能接受你們的看法是什麼"},{"start":13238.672,"end":13266.207,"text":"每位委員的發言我們都是尊重的但你不認同嗎?我們沒有認同你認同?你認同?那你還是不認同?認同不認同那意見認不認同我講不出來喔認同不認同嘛因為看委員講的時候有從哪個角度啦就是講我剛剛那個角度好啦我又不為難你啦因為要官員用專業的立場去打臉那些意識形態立委也確實是不能讓你們去背這個鍋啦總而言之至少我看起來民進黨政府是對這個東西是善意的齁"},{"start":13266.747,"end":13284.014,"text":"那如果覺得是善意那我們要接求我這邊幾點建議第一個兩岸因為這個專業團體都有一些交流的需要就我了解一直卡在陸委會比如說像旅展之前有一些大陸的官員想要來參加台灣旅展交流被陸委會卡住"},{"start":13284.614,"end":13304.885,"text":"再來就是宗教今天是剛好媽祖嘛天上聖母聖誕有一些媽祖的交流也被陸委會卡住還有一些學術的交流也都被陸委會卡住那陸委會每一次都說這個要聯審但是有人去問過其他的主管機關都說就是陸委會在卡請問一下陸委會為什麼老是對於這種專業的團體交流這麼有意見但是為什麼"},{"start":13309.687,"end":13334.436,"text":"是意識形態還是怎樣據我知道並沒有像委員說的這樣你是說沒有啦但是我不要說可以提供給你數據啦就是這幾年老師現在就是專案審查嘛專案審查然後就一直卡一直卡嘛那我這邊建議啦因為現在以前在疫情前是通案審查沒有專案審查現在一個案子一個案子然後跳毛病阿為什麼現在疫情已經過這麼久了還要專案審查為什麼"},{"start":13338.382,"end":13351.35,"text":"這個人員的開放我想還是要循序漸進這沒有疫情的嘛 什麼循序漸進 你當初改成專案的理由已經消失了 為什麼還要繼續專案呢目前呢 整個案例 第二個問題 平潭到台灣 現在這個貨運還是有嘛 對不對對 貨運還是有嘛 現在只是把客運加進去 為什麼不行"},{"start":13363.26,"end":13370.311,"text":"我們現在兩岸之間 空運有沒有直航點 有沒有幾個15個 空運有15個 航運不行 為什麼"},{"start":13376.289,"end":13398.821,"text":"我不懂在摸集耶在空運兩邊的人員可以來往但是海運不行理由是什麼沒有不行是說你沒有開放嘛那雖然現在澎潭跟台灣的開放是有可能的客運開放我們過去就講航點恢復是就是看需求還有看那現在就是有需求現在是沒需求嗎"},{"start":13400.242,"end":13410.997,"text":"所以我們現在交通部這邊就是盡快在會上大家大家做處理那時間到了,所以你們什麼時候會有答案?盡快什麼時候會有答案?"},{"start":13418.367,"end":13430.075,"text":"我剛剛在辦公室看那個洪孟凱委員在生氣我想說他根本發那麼大的脾氣我才知道為什麼會發脾氣我們問的東西都問這麼具體然後答案都會呼嚨我們那我還在這邊4、5分鐘幹嘛啊真的欸 糟了糟了你知道我們第一次來內政委員會真的不知道原來這些官員是這麼呼嚨的餒謝謝糟了謝謝"},{"start":13443.066,"end":13463.632,"text":"好,非常謝謝葉研芝委員的質詢也辛苦了李副主委也辛苦了杭政司的韓司長也辛苦了我們交通部的周副署長昭偉真的也挺同情你們的這個政府的政策真的是在不服民意"},{"start":13466.021,"end":13493.819,"text":"登記發言的委員．除了不在場之外．其餘都已經發言完畢．詢答結束委員．黃仁、徐巧欣．林德福、莊瑞雄．王宏威所提的書面質詢．列入紀錄、刊登公報書面質詢和未及答覆的部分．請相關單位在一週之內．以書面答覆並複製本會．本次的議程處理完畢．現在散會．大家辛苦了．謝謝"}]}},{"id":"15866","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15866","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77db648a477557a3c47590a0be61fea148183be8d109af184be4a98fdc471f88dd505ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於經濟部主管：經濟作業基金、水資源作業基金、經濟特別收入基金、核能發電後端營運基金。(處理)【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-01","start_time":"2024-05-01T08:30:30+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-01T11:26:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":10530,"委員發言時間":"08:30:30 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我們現在請回座來"},{"start":1807.367,"end":1827.076,"text":"蘇靜,我們現在繼續開會今天是五一勞動節本席也請藉此加節向中年勤奮、敬業、熱誠奉獻的勞工朋友們表達由衷的敬意謝謝大家也祝大家五一勞動節快樂那麼現在我們進行討論事項請宣讀"},{"start":1831.699,"end":1853.917,"text":"繼續審查113年度中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算非營業部分關於經濟部主管：經濟作業基金、水資源作業基金、經濟特別收入基金、核能發電後端營運基金今日處理宣讀完畢好那我們經濟部主管的"},{"start":1856.141,"end":1872.998,"text":"非營業基金委員會在4月18日已經詢答結束現在進行逐項審查依據我們預算法第50條及相關規定作業基金部分照業務計劃、業務收支以及結繳供戶淨額"},{"start":1876.571,"end":1903.592,"text":"轉投資計畫固定資產的建設改良擴充國庫增撥基金額及補辦預算等逐項審查特別收入基金的部分照業務計畫基金來源用途及餘處結繳公庫及補辦預算等逐項審查現在我們宣讀今日審查的項目與委員的提案"},{"start":1906.877,"end":1919.553,"text":"宣讀完畢我們再進行協商請宣讀中華民國113年度中央政府總預算案經濟部主管附屬單位預算非營業部分經濟作業基金一業務計劃請參閱預算書二業務收支業務總收入"},{"start":1924.199,"end":1927.262,"text":"8302701萬8千元業務總支出76億5868萬元本期剩餘6億6833萬8千元3節繳公庫金額2718萬6千元4轉投資計劃無劣數5固定資產建設改良擴充13億9645萬3千元6國庫增撥基金額無劣數"},{"start":1947.879,"end":1957.061,"text":"水資源作業基金一、業務計劃請參閱預算書二、業務收支業務總收入91億1409萬8千元業務總支出110億279萬6千元本期短處18億8869萬8千元三、截繳工庫金額無劣數四、轉投資計劃無劣數五、固定資產建設改良擴充13億9126萬4千元六、國庫增撥基金額"},{"start":1977.205,"end":1982.85,"text":"22億1900萬元經濟特別收入基金依業務計劃請參閱預算書二基金來源用途及餘處基金來源254億2862萬元基金用途225億3441萬4千元本期剩餘28億9420萬6千元三截角光庫無劣數"},{"start":2000.686,"end":2008.769,"text":"核能發電後端營運基金一業務計劃請參閱預算書二基金來源用途及餘處基金來源267億7173萬2千元基金用途64億4931萬7千元本期剩餘203億2241萬5千元三節繳工庫劣數"},{"start":2022.434,"end":2036.075,"text":"委員提案經濟作業基金一服務費用專業服務費凍結10%委員先一奉等提案二會費捐助補助分攤救助與交流活動費凍結10%委員先一奉等提案"},{"start":2037.841,"end":2047.583,"text":"3、業務成本與費用、勞務成本凍結5%委員蔡奕宇等提案4、管理成本服務費用、專業服務費、檢列300萬元委員陳廷輝等提案5、專業服務費向下其他、凍結1000萬元委員呂玉玲等提案6、凍結800萬元委員張祺凱等提案7、凍結5%委員邱益穎等提案"},{"start":2059.786,"end":2072.308,"text":"8、出租資產成本、凍結2000萬元委員呂玉玲等提案9、一般建築及設備計劃、分年性項目、凍結1500萬元委員呂玉玲等提案10、不動產房及設備、房屋及建築、凍結300萬元委員張祺凱等提案11、凍結5%委員邱瑩等提案產業園區、開發管理基金12、業務成本與費用、勞務成本、服務成本"},{"start":2088.547,"end":2096.133,"text":"服務費用、水電費、減劣15%、凍結20%委員楊瓊英等提案13、專業服務費、減劣20%、凍結20%委員楊瓊英等提案14、管理及總務費用、減劣25%、凍結25%委員楊瓊英等提案15、凍結500萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案16、產業園區管理局因競速加強煤核及有效釋出工業區閒置用地"},{"start":2118.118,"end":2146.284,"text":"請於1個月內提出改善說明、書面報告委員陳亭飛等提案17科技產業園區基金以加強賬款收繳管理及與積蓆作業請經濟部於2個月內提出報告委員邱志偉等提案18113年度預算案根據辦理大林埔地區居民遷村相關費用請經濟部於2個月內提出全計劃執行進度及全經費使用情形報告委員邱志偉等提案"},{"start":2147.827,"end":2153.12,"text":"19、請經濟部於2個月內提出工業區土地資源優化與有效釋出策略研究報告。"},{"start":2154.346,"end":2182.395,"text":"委員丘志偉等提案二十請經濟部於兩個月內提出產業園區基金勞務收支結構檢討與成本實際性評估報告委員丘志偉等提案二十一限期於一個月內啟動建置台中工業區托育服務作業並於兩個月後提交台中市西屯區台中工業區開辦從業人員托育作業進度與期程書面報告委員楊瓊英等提案二十二請科技產業園區基金"},{"start":2184.178,"end":2200.278,"text":"加強賬款收繳管理與積蓄作業以維護基金權益委員楊瓊英等提案23請產業園區開發管理基金競速加強媒合及有效釋出產業園區閒置用地提高土地使用效益"},{"start":2200.678,"end":2217.688,"text":"委員楊瓊英等提案24、經濟部應積極加速推動大林埔千村計劃每月定期提供大林埔千村進度工作書面報告並於一個月內延役提出市區無房無地居民千村協助方案規劃書面報告委員賴瑞榮等提案"},{"start":2219.582,"end":2243.612,"text":"25、要求經濟部於一個月內就高雄軟體園區第二園區建設計劃中說明手動建物建設期程與招商推動進度成果以及評估手動建築物預留所新創事業空間之規劃委員賴瑞榮等提案26、要求經濟部於一個月內提出前鎮科技產業園區老舊廠辦更新計劃委員賴瑞榮等提案"},{"start":2244.772,"end":2261.565,"text":"27、要求經濟部於1個月內提出工業區及產業園區能效提升及碳中和推動方案委員賴瑞榮等提案。 28、科技產業園區作業基金以加強賬款收繳管理與積蓆作業以維護基金權益委員邱盈等提案。 29、產業園區基金辦理循環產業園區設置計劃以積極協調辦理委員邱盈等提案。"},{"start":2271.152,"end":2296.1,"text":"30、產業園區基金以競速加強煤核及有效釋出工業區閒置用地提高土地使用效益委員秋瑩等提案31、請經濟部協同產業園區管理局、台電公司會同國科會於3個月內評估自南科高雄第三園區台積電之161千伏特變電站拉射電限制南子科技產業園區委員秋志偉等提案"},{"start":2297.451,"end":2304.297,"text":"發展循環經濟為推動政府5加2產業創新政策之一應積極協調辦理委員謝易鳳等提案產業園區基金113年度編列舉借長期債務"},{"start":2313.065,"end":2333.901,"text":"應妥善規劃財務收支委員謝一鳳等提案。 34科技產業園區統籌設置污水處理廠應妥謀善策以提高營運績效委員謝一鳳等提案。 35產業園區開發管理基金勞務收支長年短促要求經濟部於2週內提出專案報告委員陳超明等提案。"},{"start":2334.662,"end":2343.287,"text":"水資源作業基金36案、業務收入、銷貨收入、土石銷貨收入、增列2000萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案、37服務費用、減列500萬元、凍結1000萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案"},{"start":2349.833,"end":2350.774,"text":"38.業務成本與費用 簡列2000萬元委員陳亭飛等提案 39."},{"start":2350.774,"end":2352.956,"text":"銷貨成本、給水銷貨成本、凍結5%委員陳亭飛等提案 40."},{"start":2352.956,"end":2354.837,"text":"凍結200萬元委員邱志偉等提案 41."},{"start":2354.837,"end":2355.858,"text":"業務費用、耗水費費用、凍結500萬元委員張祺凱等提案"},{"start":2369.849,"end":2396.068,"text":"42、一般建築及設備計劃、分年性項目凍結100萬元委員丘志偉等提案43、請經濟部水利署於3個月內提出永安液化天然氣接受站結合零碳冷凍海水氮化技術之可行性書面報告委員丘志偉等提案44、請水利署加強開源節流之舉措以提升石門水庫油氣資源之利用委員呂毅林等提案"},{"start":2397.471,"end":2418.986,"text":"45號水費徵收辦法於112年完成訂定,依舊徵收費率互數抵減或減繳等估列方式具體詳實說明委員丘盈盈等提案46水資源作業基金已詳實盤整現有水資源運用情形與評估未來供需狀況,審慎研謀多元水源開發之可行性委員丘盈盈等提案"},{"start":2420.32,"end":2431.128,"text":"47.珍珠串計劃水利署應以此計劃加強旱災預防整備及水源調度等機制委員先奉等提案48."},{"start":2431.128,"end":2439.354,"text":"牛嘴潭六大區人工湖及周邊工程要求水利署盡力於今年完工委員先奉等提案49."},{"start":2439.354,"end":2448.722,"text":"水資源作業基金113年度給水業務收支短促要求經濟部於一個月內檢送書面報告委員陳超明等提案"},{"start":2449.723,"end":2476.463,"text":"50.考量極端氣候造成旱澇交替區常態因省著氣候變遷之影響加強研謀多元水源開發及經濟水資源管理對策委員張家俊等提案51.水利署本年度已編列11.5億元針對可能阻礙河道通洪斷面取斷及阻滋流匯流處因加強清淤疏菌以為核防安全委員張家俊等提案"},{"start":2477.743,"end":2495.714,"text":"經濟特別收入基金52案、旅運費、國外旅費、凍結100萬元委員邱志偉等提案推廣貿易基金53案、徵收及依法分配收入、推廣貿易服務費收入、增列500萬元委員賴瑞龍等提案54、貿易推廣工作計畫、減列2%委員陳亭飛等提案、55、凍結10%委員鄭天才等提案"},{"start":2503.786,"end":2505.067,"text":"56.凍結1000萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案57."},{"start":2505.067,"end":2507.027,"text":"凍結300萬元委員邱志偉等提案58."},{"start":2507.027,"end":2510.249,"text":"委託辦理智慧機械海外推廣計畫凍結5000萬元委員張祺凱等提案"},{"start":2517.83,"end":2518.47,"text":"59.凍結10%委員鄭天才等提案60."},{"start":2518.47,"end":2521.371,"text":"委託辦理海外據點業務拓展工作計畫凍結10%委員鄭天才等提案61."},{"start":2521.371,"end":2522.052,"text":"凍結500萬元委員賴瑞龍等提案62."},{"start":2522.052,"end":2523.272,"text":"凍結500萬元委員張祺凱等提案63."},{"start":2523.272,"end":2524.153,"text":"服務費用專業服務費凍結10%委員謝英鳳等提案"},{"start":2541.159,"end":2568.13,"text":"64、媒體政策及業務宣導費、檢列一千萬元委員謝依鳳等提案。 65、凍結一千萬元委員陳超明等提案。 66、匯費捐助補助分攤照護救濟與交流活動費、捐助補助與獎助、檢列三千萬元委員陳廷飛等提案。67、捐助國內團體、捐助金融機構辦理海外公共工程貸款利息補助計劃、凍結五億元委員鄭天才等提案。"},{"start":2570.13,"end":2584.515,"text":"68凍結5%委員邱益穎等提案69凍結1000萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案能源研究發展基金70案能源研究發展工作計劃凍結1000萬元委員張祺凱等提案71凍結100萬元委員邱志偉等提案72服務費用旅運費減列318萬2000元委員楊瓊英等提案73國外旅費減列1000萬元凍結100萬元"},{"start":2597.233,"end":2598.277,"text":"委員賴瑞榮等提案74檢列50萬元委員陳亭飛等提案"},{"start":2602.754,"end":2609.476,"text":"75專業服務費委託調查研究費凍結10%委員歇一鳳等提案76媒體認測及業務宣導費凍結10%委員歇一鳳等提案77會費捐助補助分攤照護救濟與交流活動費捐助補助與獎助捐助國內團體科技計劃凍結10%委員歇一鳳等提案78能源效率管理與節能技術推廣輔導"},{"start":2630.957,"end":2640.04,"text":"費熱與費冷回收技術示範應用專案補助檢列500萬元凍結500萬元委員邱志偉等提案79凍結5%委員邱映穎等提案80補協助政府機關購、能源效率管理與節能技術推廣輔導經濟部進行推動匯報平台運作凍結5%委員陳亭飛等提案81凍結5%委員陳昌明等提案82凍結200萬元委員李玉玲等提案"},{"start":2659.409,"end":2664.3,"text":"石油基金83案政府除油石油開發與技術研究計劃"},{"start":2666.757,"end":2672.379,"text":"動結一千萬元委員張祺凱等提案。 84服務費用專業服務費委託調查研究費動結10%委員謝一鳳等提案。85其他專業服務費動結10%委員謝一鳳等提案。86會費捐助補助分攤照護救濟與交流活動費捐助補助與獎助補協助政府機關購非科技計劃電動車電動機車產業環境加值補助"},{"start":2696.008,"end":2702.434,"text":"檢列4000萬元委員陳亭飛等提案87.檢列500萬元凍結500萬元委員邱志偉等提案88.凍結10%委員鄭天才等提案89.凍結5%委員邱瑩等提案90.凍結5%委員陳昌明等提案91.捐助個人非科技計劃住宅能效提升補助凍結3%委員陳亭飛等提案"},{"start":2722.513,"end":2731.261,"text":"92 凍結100萬元委員邱志偉等提案、再生能源發展基金9393再生能源推廣計劃、凍結10%委員謝業鳳等提案、94凍結5%委員蔡易瑜等提案、95凍結800萬元委員張祺凱等提案、96服務費用、凍結5000萬元委員楊瓊英等提案。"},{"start":2743.926,"end":2745.007,"text":"97.凍結500萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案98."},{"start":2745.007,"end":2747.63,"text":"專業服務費凍結500萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案99."},{"start":2747.63,"end":2750.532,"text":"會費捐助補助分攤照護救濟與交流活動費凍結1000萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案100."},{"start":2759.246,"end":2783.246,"text":"捐助補助與獎助補協助政府機關購再生能源示範補助及推廣利用補助地方政府辦理太陽光電深射案件審查作業凍結200萬元委員邱志偉等提案101捐助國內團體再生能源示範補助及推廣利用低熱能發電系統示範獎勵檢列10%委員陳亭飛等提案102凍結5%委員陳超明等提案"},{"start":2787.55,"end":2800.963,"text":"103凍結200萬元委員邱志偉等提案104合作涉及社區公開募集設置再生能源公民電廠示範獎勵相關費用凍結5%委員邱盈盈等提案105檢列4%委員陳廷飛等提案106凍結100萬元委員邱志偉等提案"},{"start":2809.485,"end":2827.433,"text":"中小企業發展基金107中小企業發展計劃凍結500萬元委員張奇楷等提案108服務費用中小企業加速投資行動方案凍結5%委員邱盈盈等提案109一般服務費凍結1500萬元委員呂玉玲等提案110中小企業發展計劃服務費用一般服務費凍結500萬元委員邱志偉等提案"},{"start":2835.416,"end":2841.601,"text":"111 佣金、會費、經理費及手續費 委員陳亭飛等提案112 中小企業發展計劃服務費用專業服務費 檢列350萬元、凍結750萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案113 凍結十分之一委員鄭天才等提案114"},{"start":2857.116,"end":2867.087,"text":"建議配合五指化政策探討多元化推貿費繳納方式請經濟部於一個月內提出因應策略之書面報告委員邱志偉等提案"},{"start":2869.834,"end":2890.386,"text":"115請能源研究發展基金核實盤點經濟部部門相關計劃之實行內容並妥善規劃經濟部近年推動匯報平台運作委員楊求英等提案116石油基金編列工庫撥補住宅燃效計劃請加強計劃之前至規劃作業委員楊求英等提案"},{"start":2892.127,"end":2909.72,"text":"117請推廣貿易基金、滾動檢討修正智慧機械海外推廣計劃其脫銷措施委員楊瓊英等提案118要求經濟部應妥善規劃經濟部進行推動匯報平台運作之協調與資源整合控管委員鄭天才等提案"},{"start":2911.971,"end":2926.117,"text":"119 能源研究發展基金新增經濟部近年推動匯報平台運作應詳時盤點近三年相關計畫執行成效加強整合控管委員賴瑞榮等提案120 能源研究發展基金新增發電業"},{"start":2927.819,"end":2949.441,"text":"檢探、認測及發展入境規劃,要求該計劃應配合國際趨勢及我國淨零轉型階段目標妥善規劃執行策略委員賴瑞榮等提案。 121推貿基金辦理智慧機械海外推廣計劃,儀式全球經濟局勢變遷積極配合調整因應委員秋葉營等提案。"},{"start":2950.882,"end":2970.277,"text":"122推貿基金因持續加強輔導出口業者積極開拓國際市場委員謝伊鳳等提案123推貿基金因研議多元化繳納推貿費之可行性以提升徵收效率委員謝伊鳳等提案124能源研究發展基金及石油基金出國旅費"},{"start":2971.827,"end":2991.076,"text":"並專節原則核實檢討各項出國計劃之必要性委員謝一鳳等提案125、能源基金應配合國際趨勢並審酌我國能源及近年轉型之階段目標實成妥善規劃執行方案委員謝一鳳等提案126、石油基金辦理住宅能效計劃應檢討並加強計劃之前置規劃與評估分析作業委員謝一鳳等提案"},{"start":2997.379,"end":3020.272,"text":"127、石油基金根據編列電動機車產業環境價值補助因研謀加強提升普及率推動策略委員謝一鳳等提案128、鑒於中國大陸於113年1月預告農漁機械紡織產品、汽車零配件將取消關稅減讓要求經濟部於一個月內提出配套措施委員陳超明等提案"},{"start":3022.096,"end":3048.284,"text":"129行政院推動海外公共工程執行計畫要求經濟部未來該計畫完成融資撥款後每2個月減送執行進度委員陳超明等提案130中小企業屬應積極拓展其他收入財源逐步將低對國庫之依賴請於1個月內提出改善說明書面報告委員陳廷飛等提案131請經濟部中小及新創企業屬"},{"start":3049.537,"end":3064.793,"text":"於2個月內提出加強招商與提升營運績效策略書面報告委員邱志偉等提案。 132請中小企業發展基金加強招商與提升營運績效策略必利基金財務健全委員楊瓊英等提案。"},{"start":3066.954,"end":3093.107,"text":"133補助地方政府辦理太陽光電深色案件審查作業因周延考量相關規範以免復燃補助委員鄭天才等提案134要求經濟部因研謀提升育成中心營運績效以利基金財務健全與育成中心永續經營委員鄭天才等提案135補助地方政府辦理太陽光電深色案件審查作業以周延考量相關規範"},{"start":3094.386,"end":3120.033,"text":"落實審查機制委員謝一鳳等提案136合作涉及社區公開募集設置再生能源公民電廠示範獎勵計劃應加強推動方案委員謝一鳳等提案137中小企業加速投資行動方案計劃應加強執行策略以落實計劃推動目標委員謝一鳳等提案138中小企業發展基金"},{"start":3120.595,"end":3141.88,"text":"因積極拓展其他特定收入財源以為該基金是健全發展為先鋒等提案139中小企業發展基金辦理中小企業加速投資行動方案計畫111年後通過加速大幅衰退要求經濟部與一個院內提出專案報告委員陳超明等提案核能發電後端"},{"start":3143.308,"end":3152.631,"text":"141.低放射性廢棄物處理及儲存計劃141.低放射性廢棄物處理及儲存計劃142.凍結77萬元委員鄭天才等提案143.低放射性廢棄物最終處置計劃"},{"start":3172.879,"end":3173.339,"text":"144.凍結500萬元委員張祺凱等提案145."},{"start":3173.339,"end":3174.619,"text":"凍結300萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案146."},{"start":3174.619,"end":3178.1,"text":"服務費用專業服務費委託調查研究費中期暫存設施公眾溝通勞務案檢列600萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案147."},{"start":3178.1,"end":3179.821,"text":"推展費檢列50萬元委員陳廷飛等提案"},{"start":3197.833,"end":3203.621,"text":"148用過核子燃料儲存計劃、減列2000萬元、凍結3000萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案、149凍結1000萬元委員張祺凱等提案、150凍結100萬元委員邱志偉等提案、151凍結100萬元委員邱志偉等提案。"},{"start":3215.493,"end":3222.157,"text":"152 用過核磁燃料最終處置計畫檢列500萬元凍結600萬元委員賴瑞榮等提案153 檢列40萬元委員鄭天才等提案154 凍結1000萬元委員張祺凱等提案155 服務費用推展費"},{"start":3232.823,"end":3240.145,"text":"簡列25萬元委員陳亭飛等提案156盒子設施廚藥拆廠及其廢棄物處理及最終處置計劃服務費用推展費簡列50萬元委員陳亭飛等提案157限於核後端營運費用之提撥時程將於114年5月17日"},{"start":3254.554,"end":3255.535,"text":"好,我們現在進行協商"},{"start":3288.793,"end":3306.421,"text":"來各位同仁我們113年經濟作業基金我們從業務總支出的部分那這個謝易鳳委員以作為主決議那第二案會會的部分謝易鳳委員也經過溝通作為主決議"},{"start":3307.902,"end":3332.874,"text":"那接下來這個科技產業園區作業基金業務總支出的部分我們有第3案到第8案請大家看那其中呢其中第3案蔡議員委員業務成本的這個部分他已經改為主決議第8案李玉玲委員的部分也改為主決議那我們請行政部門請做說明"},{"start":3335.319,"end":3363.399,"text":"本案有向委員辦公室跟委員親自說明委員也都同意領動節改成主決議這個是那個第三案到第八案請注意聽第三案跟第八案同意作為主決議但是第四案、第五案、第六案、第七案四案、五案、六案、七案有跟委員辦公室報告過但是他說現場處理"},{"start":3365.419,"end":3393.028,"text":"先來處理就是你們提出你們的說法第4案要減劣300萬第5案凍結1000萬第6案凍結800萬第7案是凍結5%區長是不是先整體說明老闆整體說明一下那個整體說明一下就是說第一個就是說有關污水廠的使用率的部分因為這兩年因為疫情關係廠商的營業量有下降所以污水排放量有減少這是第一種狀況"},{"start":3394.088,"end":3421.767,"text":"那第二個原來我們屏東沿區的加工出口區也就科技產業區的部分我們原先設計的說是大水量的廠商進駐但是我們引進進來的廠商都已經做成節水所以目前他的排水量都有降低那所以綜合這兩個因素我們的污水廠的那個平均利用率僅到61%那這個也就是說廠商有節水那所以排放量有減少的原因所導致的"},{"start":3424.457,"end":3447.024,"text":"所以你同意陳立法委員檢列300萬同意李毅民委員凍結1000萬建議免刪減免凍結來那個賴容偉好我沒有意見我想這些工作期都相當重要那我是建議就不要凍結不要刪減好陳立法委員沒意見"},{"start":3448.43,"end":3453.554,"text":"因為我們今天總共審了4個基金4月1日開始漲價電費請4個基金待會你們趕快統計因為4月1日漲價因為這是113年度的基金你們的作業裡頭因為漲價會產生增加多少電費請待會4大基金也做說明"},{"start":3475.99,"end":3499.588,"text":"來各位同仁那經過這個主管機關單位的說明齁我們第三案跟第八案改為主決議那其他預算照列齁好謝謝來接下來我們固定資產建設改良擴充呢從第九案、第十案、第十一案到第十一案齁有邱議員委員、李玉婷委員跟張祺凱委員來行政部門請做說明是"},{"start":3500.949,"end":3527.74,"text":"這部委員提出來的就是希望我們能夠加強我們園區的那個農機率的使用跟那個閒置土地不要太多了那我們現在已經開始積極招商那對於我們有一些老舊園區的部分推行了立體化的部分來增加它的使用率那所以目前我們的閒置土地的部分也減了很多那再來一個就是"},{"start":3529.241,"end":3529.521,"text":"請教各位委員"},{"start":3553.107,"end":3566.726,"text":"各位沒有要發言的時候本席也希望就是說單位把你們目前使用因為現在工業地是一地難求、一品難求"},{"start":3568.027,"end":3585.338,"text":"很辛苦喔那所以你們也去盤點一下因為有時候整個樣態會改變那所以你們盤點一下將你們目前所工業區用地的執行行列表出來給委員會我們一起來加油"},{"start":3589.52,"end":3611.295,"text":"那所以呢經過行政部門的說明那但是剛剛還有一項就是您希望他們是蓋到六樓但是分屬在每一個地方每一個縣市他們的隆基是不一樣的是不一樣的你們是不是有協助不然你們只有告訴我們說你希望要"},{"start":3612.156,"end":3631.853,"text":"要蓋到6樓、7樓,它的容積就沒那麼多,要怎麼蓋?所以當時,局長記得當時我們潭子現在改為產業科技園區,像騎龍,它以前也是2樓而已,2樓、3樓而已,所以最後我們真的沒有辦法,沒有辦法不購土地,我們才增加120的容積。"},{"start":3634.715,"end":3638.396,"text":"120的容積是要經過不是你自己講就可以啊?"},{"start":3638.396,"end":3639.056,"text":"是還是你自己講就可以啊?"},{"start":3639.056,"end":3640.917,"text":"是你自己講要協助嗎?會去協助廠商因為有些都市計畫的那個園區的部分要跟地方政府來協調"},{"start":3652.14,"end":3667.718,"text":"對嘛,所以這個部分很重要你一定要去做規劃你的KPI在哪裡然後你們要怎麼樣協助因為你是主管單位啊你要怎麼樣跟當地的地方政府去溝通嘛"},{"start":3668.739,"end":3687.094,"text":"你做一廂情願我希望他蓋到六樓七樓他又起不來你怎麼說好不好所以我們也希望聽到真的訊息因為觀光壇子科技產業園區要增加120你看我們共同奮鬥多久才把它完成對不對而且他們未來要蓋的時候這個廠商都很辛苦所以我要勉勵你們一定要"},{"start":3693.919,"end":3720.305,"text":"協助廠商把我們的指標弄出來然後跟當地的縣市政府來溝通來努力合作嘛因為你只有靠廠商我當然希望但是你如果沒有出面也不太有可能嘛好不好朝這個方向去做啊你把那個那個那個那個你們的使用率列表出來好不好那也把你們預計你說的六六七六要在哪一個園區可以怎麼做"},{"start":3723.458,"end":3723.578,"text":"主席"},{"start":3748.92,"end":3775.598,"text":"主席來這邊宣告9案、10案、11案我們預算照列謝謝來接下來我們這個產業園區開發管理基金的部分業務總支出各位同仁我們請看12案本席改組決議13案跟廖偉強委員兩個我們改組決議14案本席跟廖偉強委員提案的我們也改組決議那第15案是賴樂榮動解500萬請做說明"},{"start":3779.866,"end":3783.479,"text":"有關委員所提到的就是也是一樣閒置土地活化的部分"},{"start":3784.482,"end":3811.048,"text":"發言 那我們現在已經加強招商然後對於原來產業園區的閒置的土地的部分我們也經過前面的清查目前列為閒置土地的部分只剩下大概十幾公頃那剩下的都已經開始在建築那原先開始在107年查的時候有200多公頃那目前都已經下降下來那我們會積極督導現在開始興建的廠商要積極依照他的計畫來興建"},{"start":3814.284,"end":3842.361,"text":"來來認為我想我也肯定顯示空間還是請局長持續來加速來交商來推動但是我也趁這個也要提一下就是像前陣的最早的那個園區的那個改建的部分還是希望能夠持續來也謝謝部長跟局長支持那最老的一個園區對台灣貢獻最多經濟當時最多的我也希望加速持續已經有幾個持續動起來我也希望局長能夠再持續關注讓他更加速推動更新的工作"},{"start":3843.101,"end":3856.091,"text":"那預算我就改組決議好那經過說明那任委員也改組決議剛剛所提的本席也提一點意見也就是說沒有功勞也有苦勞最原先的"},{"start":3857.607,"end":3880.266,"text":"養胎的這個工業區 這才是你們的寶貝 是因為只有在那個區塊有可能去改變 因為以前都孔氏臘部會一樓二樓這樣而已 最少三樓 所以他的空間經過日積月累不管是農積這一些都有可能去改變 而且機率最大 是"},{"start":3880.826,"end":3903.925,"text":"所以怎麼樣可以脫胎換骨換了一心這是你們的寶貝的地方啊所以應該好好去做規劃好不好好 那我們就這個委員謝謝當然我支持這個業務支出但是業務成本跟費用但是我問一下那個局長這個你們所主管66處財源區"},{"start":3907.628,"end":3920.038,"text":"這66處都已經開闢完成那高雄大概有幾處?高雄的部分目前正在開發中有北高雄一處還有另外還有一個就是剛孵出來的鹿竹產業園區你要趕快積極去規劃"},{"start":3926.982,"end":3933.284,"text":"我們已經在規劃當中那個部長你知道齁?剛敷出來的齁?上禮拜剛敷出來的齁?"},{"start":3933.284,"end":3934.905,"text":"是在積極進行齁?"},{"start":3934.905,"end":3947.589,"text":"是那另外這個其他的都已經批件完成了有沒有還有閒置的這個沒有進駐的?還有多少可以進駐的廠商?有沒有統計過?高雄的部分"},{"start":3948.229,"end":3972.125,"text":"高雄的部分我手頭上沒有資料那目前已開發完成的工業區就是剛剛有跟委員報告過就是我們總共清了240幾公頃那目前只剩下10幾公頃是確實是到現在3年的通知他該要新建高雄的部分我手頭上沒資料我是說全部的那高雄的部分我們再回去再查一下再跟委員做報告"},{"start":3973.305,"end":3995.223,"text":"高雄我那邊有沒有閒置?我記得是沒有啦我記得高雄是沒有啦我應該是供不應求因為供不應求才有這個入竹產業園區的規劃嘛那我覺得入竹產業園區很快如果你批完這個很快又有上禮拜跟委員報告過我們回去已經開始在研擬要提那個"},{"start":3997.225,"end":4021.222,"text":"那個可行性規劃報告開始要做了那個部分我已經大概已經都確定了那我還是覺得這個還是不夠還有五十幾公頃還是不夠我希望在北高雄陸陸續再找適當的地因為五十幾公頃大概提供給三十幾家頂多四十家那需求我了解大概有上百家所以你們繼續朝第三處產業園區去規劃好 謝謝"},{"start":4025.014,"end":4054.193,"text":"好 謝謝那經過充分討論我們營業總支出的部分12案、13案、14案、15案我們都改為主決議預算照列所以局長剛剛所提的資料要這個準備給我們委員謝謝來接下來我們決議的部分16案遵照辦理同意17案遵照辦理同意18案遵照辦理同意19案遵照辦理同意20案遵照辦理同意"},{"start":4057.588,"end":4064.979,"text":"21案21案的部分會建議做文字上的修正怎麼樣?請念"},{"start":4067.573,"end":4085.277,"text":"修正的部分就是我們建議就是說那個文字上不足的後面改成原立即啟動臺中產業園區托育服務需求調查並於兩個月內邀請邀集主管及官及相關單位召開會議原商臺中產業園區從業開辦從業人員托育作業之可行性"},{"start":4092.055,"end":4112.372,"text":"你修改的文字跟原文字有什麼差別?你的歷期是比我們一個月還要更歷期啊?是意思如此嗎?是,那個就希望就是說我們要有開會的時間啦因為你是一個月內啊,那你是歷期啊不是,兩個月都一樣啊因為前面我們還要再做規劃,要去做調查你弄錯了,兩個月怎麼樣?"},{"start":4120.989,"end":4141.367,"text":"2個月內邀集主管、機關及相關單位開會演商不同意啊這個推這麼重要這個都是只剩作業而已為什麼還要2個月才要去你立即去調查然後調查完你2個月才要召集要召集要召集多久這不對吧"},{"start":4143.929,"end":4168.034,"text":"這沒有困難啊 這都是你們的樣態66個都在啊 為什麼還要這樣子 有什麼可以做不來 像你們的優勢工業區原本說要做但是最後還是沒有辦法做 這沒有辦法做當然是每一個區的樣態不一樣啊 那我們也尊重當地需求者嘛 對不對 所以你一老還是要再閒置啊"},{"start":4170.315,"end":4174.057,"text":"那這個都是平面的、書面的,為什麼還要那麼久?"},{"start":4174.057,"end":4190.886,"text":"兩個月後才要去召集,你這是對不對?太離譜了啦 這個文字沒有問題啦,我們請你在一個月內去啟動只有針對台中工業區內,一個工業區,你這樣會有困難,你沒想到嗎?"},{"start":4193.465,"end":4216.535,"text":"不是66個,只有一個耶!廖委長、委員,這個大家陳請都需要,你們只是作業有什麼困難?像委員報告齁,召委報告,就有跟廖委員報告過啦,他也同意啦。那個召委這邊有特別指示,我們就加速辦理啦。那個不能這樣,不要改。那個你再改喔,大家沒意思啦。好,是。 21案。"},{"start":4220.981,"end":4224.884,"text":"通過22案通過23案通過24案通過25案通過26案通過27案27案的部分就是說因為我們要探綜合的示範區在園區裡面辦探綜合的示範區比較困難所以我們建議修改文字是不是能夠"},{"start":4248.78,"end":4257.043,"text":"優先推動低碳示範計畫,設立科技產業園區及產業園區的效能提升及低碳示範區。"},{"start":4273.251,"end":4273.311,"text":"主席"},{"start":4292.828,"end":4301.614,"text":"對不對?你早做晚做都要做,你幹嘛修改這樣子的文字只限於在第一攤的部分?你剛剛給你寫的那種是整體性的"},{"start":4305.373,"end":4328.643,"text":"我們現在對於整個工業區以及大家都很積極、很加油行政院也撥了那麼多預算 對不對應該努力去做啊你怎麼人家給你提倡你要限縮在一地當然那任委員同意我沒有意見啊我只是告訴你往後的案子不要這樣子 對不對哪有一個只有一個工業區要兩個月後才要召集對不對"},{"start":4331.424,"end":4336.506,"text":"二十七案我們尊重這個提案委員同意修正文字通過二十八案?"},{"start":4336.506,"end":4338.487,"text":"尊照辦理同意二十九案?"},{"start":4338.487,"end":4340.707,"text":"尊照辦理通過三十案?"},{"start":4340.707,"end":4342.748,"text":"尊照辦理通過三十一案?"},{"start":4342.748,"end":4347.19,"text":"三十一案的部分也跟委員報告過等一下我們三十一案他先講一下三十一案你說"},{"start":4351.451,"end":4368.982,"text":"我先說明一下等一下你是講31案嗎對31案是我的請邱志偉委員李柏毅委員請說因為這個高雄現在的科技產業園區很多那包含國科會跟這個台積電國科會的橋頭科學園區還有台積電未來將在南子產業園區進駐南部科學園區"},{"start":4375.846,"end":4394.481,"text":"那我們經濟部所管的男子科技產業園區現在第1、第2園區以外也在開閉第3園區但是第1、第2園區針對於這個台積電目前國客會這邊的用電他有專設161千伏特的變電站供產業園區的這個供電穩定的使用"},{"start":4398.484,"end":4417.283,"text":"但是目前我們高雄的這個第一園區跟第二園區並沒有第二園區現在日月工已經有申請一個但是我那天4月9日跟這些廠商來協調這些用電的穩定的需求下共同提出建議台電公司跟產業管理園區還有國科會"},{"start":4418.944,"end":4436.032,"text":"評估在3個月內從南科高雄的第三園區也就是台積電的161千伏特的變電站拉地下纜線到南子科技產業園區供南子科技產業園區的穩定供電使用以上做這一個提案"},{"start":4438.932,"end":4448.565,"text":"你已經有提案,那你剛才所說的是有部分文字要修正嗎?沒有沒有,再做一個補充說明"},{"start":4453.672,"end":4475.772,"text":"修正文字就是那個10月9日的記錄啦那第31案請來行政部門你說明了我們修正的文字就是委員那個10月9日在南芷召開會議的結論請你針對31案委員的提案有有有我有同意你的修正文字上來你說明那一部分我們也在會請台電公司"},{"start":4476.673,"end":4503.328,"text":"就是剛剛講的就是原件請臺電公司會同原管局國科會於3個月內等等的那個文字都一樣啦我說明一下啦本來是邀請你當主角你要請臺電當主角我也沒有意見啦同意反正就是要來做就對了同意剛剛局長所說的修正文字通過嗎?你沒意外?同意謝謝好邱教委你要發言嗎?因為這是我提案齁對這個嗯技術性今天臺電有沒有來?"},{"start":4506.756,"end":4525,"text":"這個需求性跟必要性沒有問題,技術性可不可行?這台電有沒有來?這件事我三年不會很關心的,這技術性可不可行?這部分我看我還是帶回去好了,因為這部分現在不是我這邊核能的主管的業務三個月可能太慢了"},{"start":4531.007,"end":4552.014,"text":"平估一個月就好了,你們那麼專業,還有國科會、還有經濟部,還有三個月評估,我修正三個月,一個月,好不好?對不對?大臣,可以了齁?請各位都評估出來,然後我要繼續再追蹤。可惜不可惜,一個月就要有一個確定,我們才知道怎麼樣去推動。是,好,我們遵道辦理。"},{"start":4552.714,"end":4571.547,"text":"好,那第31案尊重我們提案委員修正文字照剛剛梁局長所說的但是呢,邱志偉委員說這個評估由三個月改為一個月好,那我們就依照修正文字通過32案通過33案通過34案通過35案有向委員報告就是說修正文字"},{"start":4582.595,"end":4607.834,"text":"兩週內我們改成一個月專案報告改成書面報告委員也同意有簽名喔有沒有簽名好那叫這35萬照修正文字通過好那請你們也去計算喔待會一併最後一併你們增加的有多少那個電費4月要到年底的時候好繼續各位同仁我們繼續針對於水資源作業基金的部分我們來做討論協商"},{"start":4609.275,"end":4636.341,"text":"那業務總收入第36案那若委員是要增列兩千萬請行政部門說明有關於委員的這個提案我們來努力來達成這個目標依照委員的意見所以增列兩千萬徒使的好那我們就照案通過來增列兩千萬好業務總支出的部分第37案服務費用的部分有那若委員要減列五百萬凍結一千萬請做說明"},{"start":4638.179,"end":4644.339,"text":"因為現在氣候變遷水資源設施都很多我們建議說大會可以支持我們原來的預算"},{"start":4649.326,"end":4672.549,"text":"好 那這個水資源的部分我們也請你們去統計喔待會四大基金我剛剛說過了我再不再重複最後請你們說出4月1號到年底的時候你們的電費依照如果目前4月1號所漲的你們會預計要漲多少你們去做統計好 針對於37案的部分服務費用的部分呢剛剛行政部門說明來請教那任委員"},{"start":4673.978,"end":4700.617,"text":"這個部分我就改組決議來還是希望你們尊潔來支出另外相關的設備的一些費用部分能夠多多尊潔來使用好 37案經過溝通我們改為組決議請行政部門加油來接下來我們第38案、39案、40案、41案共同討論那其中38案跟39案跟41案委員同意改為組決議那40案邱志偉委員是凍結200萬請做說明"},{"start":4703.444,"end":4707.627,"text":"兩百萬這個凍結是有意義的為什麼會凍兩百萬不是凍三百萬這個禮拜一審查自來水公司的預算他們的這個原水的成本費用"},{"start":4732.442,"end":4745.333,"text":"跟水利署還有跟北水局他們的購水成本偏高好像一年大概四十幾億他們自由水源大概不到三成"},{"start":4746.479,"end":4760.605,"text":"基金、水資源作業基金、水資源作業基金、水資源作業基金、水資源作業基金、水資源作業基金、水資源作業基金、水資源作業基金、水資源作業基金、水資源作業基金、水資源作業基金、水資源作業基金、水資源作業基金、水資源作業基金、水資源作業基金、水資源作業基金、水資源作業基金、水資源作業基金、水資源"},{"start":4776.693,"end":4788.209,"text":"蘇聯要告訴我我知道委員是不是容我們跟台水公司來做一個協商這個部分不要凍結可不可以這40幾億你要協商有好的結論協商沒有結論或是沒有好的結論"},{"start":4793.158,"end":4794.779,"text":"請經濟部跟台水由部長來協調"},{"start":4813.768,"end":4829.832,"text":"委員長,另外你針對五自來水管的這個區域是屬於非度位區比較多,山區或者原來的縣區非度位區,所以你們評比的標準,最後水公司要送到你們那邊,那水利署來做最後的這個評比的優先順序,對不對?"},{"start":4834.696,"end":4847.694,"text":"這個針對偏鄉或非都市區在制度上能夠有加分或加成,讓這個比如說屏東、高雄市的北區,它的自來水的接管率能夠提高。"},{"start":4848.895,"end":4866.356,"text":"現在還不到八成、不到九成那市區都大概九成多九成八、九成九所以這部分我是希望說你能在這個無自然水接管的這評比的部分你能夠在設計上面能夠有一些的對於加分特別針對這個非都會區"},{"start":4869.5,"end":4870.2,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":4894.379,"end":4905.711,"text":"我同意改組決議但是我希望那個水利署這邊因為水資源作業基金其實他所牽扯的在我們的那位主委"},{"start":4907.913,"end":4918.54,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位、水資源作業基金、經濟特別收入基金、核能發電後端營運基金、經濟特別收入基金、核能發電後端營運基金、經濟特別收入基金、核能發電後端營運基金、經濟特別收入基金、經濟特別收入基金、經濟特別收入基金、經濟特別收入基金、經濟特別收入基金、"},{"start":4937.893,"end":4947.781,"text":"更密切的結合我覺得這是比較重要的而不是你做你的水庫再另外再變另外有算那沒有意義啦謝謝"},{"start":4950.919,"end":4977.268,"text":"我們一併回答,那請卿委員好,謝謝主席我還是要請教一下那個水利署之前我一直提到就是說你們那個無自來水的那個評比啊我希望你們把它分成偏鄉地區跟比較市區集中區那個規劃什麼時候會開始做就是說你現在所有的這些評比計畫什麼時候會開始把它區隔第二個就是說原來你的評比是只要超過35萬就不會做嘛"},{"start":4979.869,"end":5005.482,"text":"那現在有沒有把那個整個評比的那個額度把它拉高那如果有拉高的話也是從什麼時候開始做可不可以說明我們依照這個委員會的這個建議我們現在已經把提送計畫現在計畫在國發會就依照委員這個建議分成包括偏鄉的部分包括評比的上限的部分拉高還有這個所謂的檢疫自來水的部分去改善這些我們都納進去了那現在計畫在審議中"},{"start":5007.769,"end":5025.983,"text":"主席我可不可以再講一句就說可不可以請水利署你們去盤點一下你比如說像我的選區那個像甲仙、寶萊那種很偏遠的地區他有可能一輩子一輩子都排不上評比即使你現在把評比拉高他可能還是排不上"},{"start":5026.744,"end":5052.231,"text":"那有沒有可能你們換另外一個方式比如說在這些偏遠的地區你們去跟市政府或者是跟其他的單位去共同設置所謂的減水設施讓他們也能夠享有簡易自來水他不用在那裡苦苦的等待你們每一年的評比然後他一輩子都比不上一輩子都根本不會被評選列入所以你像這樣子的一個偏遠的山區有沒有可能由"},{"start":5053.251,"end":5076.207,"text":"水利署跟自來水公司也好或者是地方政府的水利局共同來設置這樣的一個減水站讓他們其實能夠你的管線也不用拉那麼長啦那也不用讓他們一輩子都用不到自來水啦我覺得這個是不是也能夠納入考量委員提得非常合理那我們部長也有指示所以我們在未來的計畫不是有沒有可能我們就是朝這個方向來努力"},{"start":5080.779,"end":5098.848,"text":"好 謝謝那我們針對於38、39、40、41預算照列均改為主決議固定資產建設改良擴充的部分是第42案由我們就職委員凍結100萬來行政部門請做說明"},{"start":5102.692,"end":5115.171,"text":"跟委員會報告我們現在的工作都加速的辦理比如說我們曾文南化這條聯通管我們甚至還試圖提早半年以上所以建議說委員會這邊照我們的預算免以凍結"},{"start":5119.923,"end":5143.118,"text":"阿貢店水庫月域排水、月域排洪到橡皮壩這個部分目前的進度怎麼樣?這個部分臨時的措施已經做好反品已經通過了我們現在在做相關的監測這個計畫總金額是多少錢?沒有,它那個經費不是很多我記得差不多是好像300多萬"},{"start":5144.438,"end":5159.251,"text":"我是不是拜託請那個署長把那個阿公電水庫月移排洪道、蝦米霸工程這個執行狀況還有那個經費概況是不是提供一份資料給我沒有問題一個禮拜之後就送給你"},{"start":5159.972,"end":5186.887,"text":"好 那就免以凍結啦 那就改主決議好 那42案我們改為主決議相關資料請送交給委員好 接下來我們決議開始43案43案倒數第一行跟第二行有關於瓜福的部分我們建議文字修改成國內外海淡廠海水淡化新技術效益與成本分析及未來推動策略"},{"start":5189.97,"end":5206.387,"text":"這是瓜福內原來永安液化天然氣接收站結合零碳冷凍海水氮化技術之可行性的部分我們建議文字把它修改為國內外海水氮化新技術效益與成本分析及未來特動策略我同意"},{"start":5207.208,"end":5229.987,"text":"好那照修正文字通過43案來44案遵照辦理同意45案遵照辦理通過46案遵照辦理通過47案遵照辦理通過48案遵照辦理通過49案遵照辦理通過50案遵照辦理通過51案遵照辦理通過好謝謝那接下來我們繼續"},{"start":5232.589,"end":5251.442,"text":"113年度經濟特別收入基金的部分我們從52案領會有邱志偉委員凍結100萬,行政部門請做說明邱志偉委員凍結這個案主要是在特收基金裡面涉及到能源基金跟石油基金的出國預算"},{"start":5252.443,"end":5273.133,"text":"那這個主要是因為我們現在在推動淨零過程當中我們跟國際上的很多連結包括CCS包括氫能包括浮動式的離岸風機的這些互動交流等等所以會增加了這一些國外考察的需要那委員會裡面提到的說有一些看起來暗明跟過去相雷同類似"},{"start":5273.613,"end":5290.751,"text":"主要是有一些主要的國家比如說像英國丹麥等等他們都同時有發展這些新的再生能源技術那另外像我們在這個高壓設備的房廠的部分主要是因為國外的廠商在國內要銷售他的高壓設備他期限到的時候我們要到原廠"},{"start":5291.732,"end":5291.872,"text":"去年多少?"},{"start":5318.917,"end":5337.237,"text":"決算多少我現在是先看預算的部分預算的部分我們今年能源基金是多編了180萬2000那石油基金是多編了385萬請你針對52案52案你去年度的旅運會是編多少執行多少"},{"start":5339.076,"end":5357.841,"text":"那個資金數有沒有這個是整個經特的經特就兩筆基金嘛經特還包括那個貿易署的好你那個你整個經特大概是決算數是多少你不要抄太多了請說明"},{"start":5360.086,"end":5382.678,"text":"有關於那個貿易署的國外旅費是4100萬左右那我們現在的話就是因為現在疫情結束之後很多的雙邊會議通通都在辦理同時呢有些其他的機關本部的其他機關有必要出國的時候也是有貿易署的相關的這個旅運費來支應"},{"start":5384.239,"end":5401.357,"text":"國報署我覺得沒有問題啦就是說這個能源發展基金它增加100多萬然後石油基金增加300多萬對那個你跟中油這個相關的這個考察有沒有重複沒有重複沒有重複中油會編在他的事業預算裡面"},{"start":5402.834,"end":5417.199,"text":"你能把你們今年度出國的計畫、這兩個基金的出國計畫想表提供一份給我?可以這個動100萬你要提供資料給我之後就解凍好不好?是可以嗎?"},{"start":5418.104,"end":5418.645,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5442.424,"end":5458.374,"text":"那個 那個 聯局喔 剛剛邱委員在問的就是說你去年 我不動喔 但你資料要詳實提供給我你去年這兩項基金 出國旅費的執行狀況還有今年詳細的出國的項目跟天數跟預算分配"},{"start":5460.003,"end":5478.423,"text":"其實我們113年度所比112年度是增加380萬嘛石油基金增加385萬然後能源基金增加180萬對啊是增加的嘛那其實你們去年度112年也沒有花完啊"},{"start":5481.863,"end":5482.424,"text":"執行率多少?"},{"start":5495.3,"end":5516.352,"text":"最後我們經過詳細討論52案照原列數通過預算照列那所要的資料兩份資料請盡速送交經濟委員會跟各位委員來我們現在繼續推廣貿易基金的部分基金來源53案有賴瑞隆委員要增列500萬行政部門請做說明"},{"start":5518.333,"end":5541.761,"text":"在我跟說明53案之前跟召委先報告推冒基金並不會因為4月1日電價的調整而有所影響至於在53的話遵照辦理是增列500萬是不是是的好那就是同意好53案我們就增列500萬來基金"},{"start":5544.847,"end":5549.15,"text":"基金用途的部分我們54案、55案、56案、57案一併討論那其中55案政見在委員改為主決議哪一個對"},{"start":5558.88,"end":5559.421,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":5579.724,"end":5581.046,"text":"五十八案是章委員關於我們智慧機械海外推廣的這個相關的做法實際上在我們積極的幫助海"},{"start":5602.406,"end":5606.109,"text":"機械產業拓展新市場還有我們今年也會開始採取異業結盟跟石化還有紡織等業者一併去拓展新的市場另外我們有發掘到波蘭跟墨西哥他積極在發展電動車產業這個也給我們機械產業有很大的發展空間所以跟"},{"start":5628.108,"end":5648.675,"text":"公會討論之後今年會組團去波蘭以及墨西哥此外我們也特別雲波了加碼20億元跟輸贏來合作辦理針對工具機還有機械產業的出口貸款方案所以建請58案提案免凍結以上報告好各位同仁"},{"start":5657.168,"end":5679.757,"text":"五十八案跟五十九案做主決議我們預算照列請行政部門加油第六十案到六十一、六十二我們一併討論其中政見財委員六十案改為主決議還有賴論委員要凍結五百萬跟章祺改為五百萬來請做說明"},{"start":5681.721,"end":5709.418,"text":"有關於這個60案到62案是委員關心我們在海外設立的海外商務中心他這幾年的利用率不是很高其實最主要的是因為受到疫情的影響我們的廠商到國外去洽工等等的這個次數都有減少在疫情之前大概平均的每一年使用的加次是400家那疫情之後呢其實到了去年年底"},{"start":5709.898,"end":5728.628,"text":"已經都回復到疫情前的水準到去年年底也是有390幾家我們會多加的利用相關的廣宣來讓我們的廠商持續的來利用海外的商務中心讓他們拓展相關的市場所以以上的這幾案建請免於凍結"},{"start":5733.969,"end":5744.765,"text":"各位同仁、代理人、委員我看到使用的加速不斷降低那如果剛剛蘇長說講的已經恢復到以前的話那我想這個部分我就支持那就改為主決議"},{"start":5745.728,"end":5769.414,"text":"好 61案改為主決議那我們60、61為主決議62案我們60到62案預算照列請行政部門加油好第63案先一份委員來要不要請行政部門先說來63案到64、65案有跟委員報告過而且沒有63案就歸63案"},{"start":5772.612,"end":5797.957,"text":"63案有跟謝委員報告過委員已經同意改為主決議而且有簽名我也再做說明因為其實我們是希望說因為目前臺灣的中小企業以及所有外銷的產業面臨到就是全球對於臺灣的地緣政治所產生的風險那我們江局長也同意"},{"start":5798.217,"end":5798.777,"text":"在這個部分我同意就是說如果我們就是貿易"},{"start":5826.627,"end":5826.987,"text":"613案經過詳細討論改為主決議"},{"start":5845.198,"end":5858.405,"text":"六十四案及六十五案新院委員、陳昌明委員兩位都同意改為主決議六十六案貿易推廣部分有陳林輝委員要檢列三千萬,行政部門請做說明"},{"start":5860.126,"end":5881.192,"text":"是 有關於66案到69案都是委員關心海外工程貸款利息補貼的這個計畫執行力不好希望我們要如實的估列所需的預算跟各位委員報告最主要原因其實我們很早就啟動這個計畫中間受到疫情影響"},{"start":5882.132,"end":5904.25,"text":"國外很多都這個封城也影響了相關案件的推動但是我們還是積極的跟各國新南向國家在這個洽商到目前為止已經有了目標國而且已經有了具體的這個個案現在呢正在跟目標國在做各項的研商包括"},{"start":5905.11,"end":5926.631,"text":"對於這個工程專業的相關的評估而且呢因為這個是必須要跟目標國的中央以及地方的相關政府做協商我們也希望能夠盡快的能夠跟對方的國家就各項細節達成共識所以請各位委員同意免於簡略以及凍結好陳金峰委員"},{"start":5932.11,"end":5947.16,"text":"第66案我想66案剛剛署長所講就是說我們在這個部分貿易推廣工作計畫尤其在南向部分其實到目前為止我們並沒有很清楚有一個比較大的計畫應該是這樣子"},{"start":5949.774,"end":5969.392,"text":"現在已經有比較具體的個案出來了是個案啊但是你要花到5億你要去做這些推廣、講述沒有那麼簡單是不是過去都沒有對過去都沒有現在有稍微有一點點雛形可是這個雛形有辦法去推動到所以5億嗎所以我認為齁"},{"start":5972.85,"end":6001.34,"text":"我會檢列的意思也是說起碼要大家不是每年拚五一五一可是沒有成效然後我們希望檢列之後檢列兩趴然後把這個計畫到底我們現在目標怎麼做現在稍微有一個雛形可是這個雛形我們的計畫是今年做到什麼程度明年做到什麼程度今年只是接洽因為今年也有嘛預算也有啊明年也有啊"},{"start":6002.04,"end":6030.644,"text":"所以今年勢必是不可能有執行的狀態所以今年執行的狀態是如何明年執行狀態是如何我覺得是不是要報一個這樣的一個報告給我們那我是建議要簡列兩part兩person好 行政部門再說明是我們一定會按照這個委員的指示來如實的這個估列我們所需的預算那我們也會把這個估算的這個情形呢跟委員做"},{"start":6031.3,"end":6046.673,"text":"提出一個書面的一個報告這個我們還是請委員能夠高抬貴手能夠不要簡略那我們一定會在這個最短的時間之內把這樣子的報告做出來提供給委員那個"},{"start":6048.054,"end":6075.693,"text":"主辦了那個你們應該不是什麼高台貴手不要講這種話齁因為這在國會裡頭你要把你們預計以委員質疑的這5億多你預計你要怎麼去精進怎麼做你應該要報告這個好不好來我們現在論文委員你再做回答我先請問一下現在66萬但是我69跟這個也是相關的這個是不是就我是不是要一併說明好不好因為我看到這個海外共工程的代理"},{"start":6076.494,"end":6082.243,"text":"我們是不是等一下那個跟67、68、69是同一類好不好在66來你要不要再說明那個"},{"start":6084.376,"end":6106.986,"text":"最主要呢這個因為還在跟對方的國家正在正在商討那這裡面的因為牽涉到我們的我們的這個商業銀行必須要跟國外的這個政府的機構要去談然後呢國外的政府也要出具相關的保證最後呢有我們的這個我國的廠商要去"},{"start":6108.066,"end":6109.447,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算"},{"start":6125.451,"end":6152.376,"text":"主席我想我本來是要檢列3000萬我只有檢列1000萬而已因為基本上在過去到現在其實每年都有編單每年都沒執行那現在有一個雛形那我本來我們要檢列更多的但是既然有一個雛形但我覺得說你都沒執行從過去到現在那現在有一個狀態的話那我們鼓勵他所以我才檢列1000萬那我也同意說就是合併五億裡面檢列1000萬"},{"start":6154.836,"end":6183.364,"text":"不用在這個科目當中就是5億裏面檢驗1000萬好不好好這樣子就是後面這個啦就是貿易推廣工作計畫啦就是我合併到後面啦就是檢驗1000萬啦我的建議是這樣啦我補充說明一下啦現在那個署長回答的部分其實就是我們後面676869三個案所提的那個5億的工程補助的那個部分利息補貼的部分嘛是喔"},{"start":6183.604,"end":6207.146,"text":"那所以剛剛主席是說我們就是討論66萬但現在其實已經是討論6、7、6、8、6、9啦那這個賴瑞隆委員跟我都有提案齁而且我質詢的時候也特別問過所以如果說停飛委員建議就減列1000萬你們是不是能夠同意因為我覺得你們的執行已經連續5年其實都是零阿"},{"start":6208.067,"end":6230.183,"text":"那如果說你暫時減列1000萬我覺得對你們應該也不會造成太大的影響啦至少也能夠督促政府至少在這個部分能夠再去努力一些啦又或者是說你這樣子還是沒有的話那以後是不是也就不要再編列這個預算了或者用其他的方式去協助他們啦好不好"},{"start":6231.909,"end":6242.296,"text":"我也提一下事實上66到69我們在談的都同一件事情都是那個5億元的所以我想我們就一定談了事實上從107年編10億、108、09、101、12、5億到113、5億但事實上都沒有動用到當然這件事情還是應該持續來做但我的建議是凍結1000萬但我希望這個國貿署這邊還是要加速來做這個的一個推動"},{"start":6258.986,"end":6285.526,"text":"也不讓你沒有經費可動但是我認為這件事情還是應該積極來推啦不然連續這麼多年別人的經費額都沒有做使用這恐怕還是要好不好好那是不是這樣來我們如果各位同仁要將676869併在66案因為66案是大水庫676869是在裡面指向那如果剛剛大家討論的結果行政部門聽清楚就是在整個"},{"start":6286.466,"end":6292.888,"text":"整個19.1億的這個項目裡頭減列1000萬。好,OK齁?"},{"start":6292.888,"end":6297.409,"text":"是。好,那我們6667、6869在19.1894萬7千元的減列1000萬。那那個67案呢,政經財委員改為主決議。好。"},{"start":6307.912,"end":6319.617,"text":"來接下來能源研究發展基金基金用途的部分因為70、71案是同樣我們待會一併再討論72、73、74這三個我們併案討論有本席減略318萬那任委員減略100萬、冬節100萬還有陳立法委員減略50萬請做說明是這邊就談到我們能源基金的出國那我剛剛有說明因為"},{"start":6334.963,"end":6335.143,"text":"珍妮惠委員"},{"start":6357.167,"end":6370.047,"text":"請問你有編這個你應該是已經有目標性說我們需要要去哪邊取經了各位報告像離岸風電的話我們還是以歐洲為主那CCS的話其實會包括像美國或日本"},{"start":6371.428,"end":6398.978,"text":"其他像親人的話大概就會包括像日本的交流澳洲的交流或者是像加拿大的交流等等這些我們大概有一些目標的一些對象那因為你們這一次有征服大概1.3億倍那我想這個過去我們就已經也是這幾個重要的一些取經的對象那為什麼今年會特別這個明年要編的會特別再多出一倍多"},{"start":6399.578,"end":6419.638,"text":"對跟委員報告主要是因為我們現在也有很多的國家在跟我們做一些相關的經貿的討論的時候他們都會把這個能源轉型或淨零轉型納入到他們的相關的項目之一所以我們配合整個一個國家之間的一個經貿的對談的時候有更多的能源交流的需要所以我們大概也就相對應編了這個出國的相關預算"},{"start":6422.821,"end":6436.681,"text":"我預算就是這個圓裂我們去動但是麻煩你要一份資料就是說我們現在今年今年我們去的成效跟明年我們預計的成效一份報告給我"},{"start":6438.423,"end":6464.239,"text":"前面日人委員我想我也支持啦因為能源政策確實相當重要那不管是剛剛提到離岸或者是氫能甚至於CCS這個都是應該要去看那我預算上我就該主席預算上有支持但我也希望也把你未來要去看的是不是也一樣給我們一份資料好不好就一定要去看的那另外過去這三年來的一些報告是不是也給我們看一下好不好我覺得這些都是一個很進步的一些我也希望這些報告給我們一併來參考是"},{"start":6466.842,"end":6467.002,"text":"主席"},{"start":6473.991,"end":6485.459,"text":"好 那這個部分本席提案在72案裡頭就是將你們所增加380幾萬的當中減列318萬2千因為在我們的預算書裡頭我們看不出你們增加是要去哪裡那所以剛剛經過詳細的討論本席的提案也作為主決議那也請你們就依照剛剛的決議將你們預計要到哪裡的那個計畫送請我們經濟委員會"},{"start":6506.413,"end":6514.059,"text":"七十二、七十三、七十四呢七十二案、七十三案、七十四案改為主決議預算照列"},{"start":6520.304,"end":6527.912,"text":"經濟委員會及各委員：接下來75萬先鋒委員改為主決議76萬先鋒委員改為主決議77案是凍結10%針對能源研究發展工作計畫 行政部門請做說明"},{"start":6536.681,"end":6561.261,"text":"是,我想委員主要是關切說我們過去的這個能源基金的一些相關的績效那這個有跟委員做過說明那簡單的講我們過去這幾年的能源密集度已經平均改善達到5.1然後我們的電力密集度平均改善也達到2.6所以有過去他的相關的績效那委員還關心的就是這個相關執行計畫的這一些成果是不是有對外的做一些公布"},{"start":6561.801,"end":6589.527,"text":"我們也跟委員說明了我們有一個計畫成果的一個摘要那這部分我們都提供給委員來做參考那建議這個案子是不是可以免動讓我們可以去執行請先問委員的確就是說不只是國際其實國內也要因應就是國際上面這個能源轉型的問題那再加上那我為什麼不動的原因是希望說因為我們現在能源的成本已經逐漸的增加"},{"start":6590.267,"end":6595.731,"text":"臺灣在跟全球接軌的這個重要的議題上面必須要付出的努力喔那但是目前我們眼前的確有一個問題就是現在就是石化能源的這個問題那導致我們的"},{"start":6616.184,"end":6624.676,"text":"就是能源的成本逐漸的提高那我是不是也可以順便請教一下王部長到底就是9月份"},{"start":6625.865,"end":6648.998,"text":"我們的電價審議委員會會不會再次的調漲電價那會不會對於我們這樣子就是說能源就是說要反映能源的成本的問題那以及就是說因為這也涉及到今天整個能源基金的預算因為我們是希望說未來的新能源的開發以及就是說這些都可以使得就是說"},{"start":6649.998,"end":6650.899,"text":"委員關切的至於9月份的電價"},{"start":6676.597,"end":6692.572,"text":"我想到下半年的時候我們還是會觀察整個國際的燃料成本的一個趨勢以及國內當時的經濟的情況在委員會裡面去做充分的討論你現在你都出國了然後都也去了那麼多國家到底現在未來"},{"start":6693.272,"end":6716.526,"text":"就是目前就是我們能源的成本到底會不會還是繼續上升還是在上升的那個國際的能源價格其實是一個動態的其實像好像像我們以色列這個事情我們在你也沒有辦法預測會有以色列這個個案發生所以我們會很密切的去關注整個國際的能源價格的一個變動的趨勢然後做出一個合理的推估所以我們會長期關注"},{"start":6718.334,"end":6745.363,"text":"所以可是目前那個石油的成本的上升應該對我們影響不大吧是不是因為石油是一個基礎的一個指數石油會影響到天然氣的價格對這是連動的所以我們大概會觀察石油的一個走勢然後會去推估像天然氣或者像煤價我們也會去看天然氣大概以73比大概有長約大概是7成然後有3成大概是用短約現貨的方式"},{"start":6746.196,"end":6767.342,"text":"所以9月的部分對9月的時候我們還是要看整個國際的一個情況好那經過詳實的討論77案來謝一芬委員我們是請委員就支持我們免動那我們按原預算執行謝謝好"},{"start":6775.335,"end":6794.066,"text":"77案我們就改為主決議接下來78案跟79案有邱志宜委員跟邱昀宇委員請做說明有關於廢熱跟廢冷這個補助計畫那過去兩年在疫情期間確實是執行率比較偏低那不過隨著整個的一個景氣復甦我們看"},{"start":6795.186,"end":6819.716,"text":"去年的這個執行率已經達到83%那我們預估今年的執行率應該可以達到90%以上那過去確實是受到了一些疫情的衝擊所以看起來執行沒有那麼理想不過這個費熱費冷跟整個產業他們的一個能源的消耗有直接的關係那這個是一個能源循環再利用的一個觀念我們請委員能夠支持我們這個預算來免於凍結這是都是補助給廠商的"},{"start":6821.616,"end":6828.121,"text":"好請問兩位委員那我就改組決議吧好我們車運委改為組決議好了我們預算照列謝謝來80案81案82案我們賓案討論那81案陳昌平委員改為組決議好請行政部門請做說明"},{"start":6839.83,"end":6855.885,"text":"好這邊談到的主要80案開始主要是談到我們經濟部有一個近鄰推動匯報那其實近鄰推動匯報其實這有一個跨局處署的一個整合平台這是在我們自己部內的那是由我們部長來召集"},{"start":6856.886,"end":6875.249,"text":"那另外還有涉及到我們整個部會之間的跨部的協調都在這個近鄰匯報裡面做討論那它主要除了我們自己國內之外這個近鄰匯報也會去收集國外有關近鄰新的規定新的想法或是新的像其他國家的一些做法"},{"start":6875.929,"end":6900.779,"text":"當作我們臺灣推動淨零的參考所以這個裡面編列的這個4200萬主要是要運作這個淨零匯報的這個平臺以上的說明那請委員支持我們來預算好請陳金斑委員謝謝我有疑問齁這些是平臺是我們各部會然後匯集進來那不論我們要去收集什麼資料那我們這4250萬主要要花在哪裡"},{"start":6904.432,"end":6925.918,"text":"要跟委員報告因為他整個資料收集完之後還要做那個專業的分析所以我們有那個聘請專家智庫來幫我們做相關的一個研究所以這是要給智庫的對對對所有4250萬都要給智庫的還不只還有包含是我們有一些會議因為有一些常常需要跟外界做一些對話跟做一些溝通那所以會有一些諮詢的費用"},{"start":6926.798,"end":6944.08,"text":"我那個凍結100萬然後把這些到底4250萬花到哪裡重點在哪裡要怎麼去推動因為你這寫得很清楚說會報平台的運作這4250萬這樣的科目設置很奇怪"},{"start":6945.402,"end":6967.568,"text":"那你說我們要去收集資料要做data分析然後要去做一些所謂的智庫的一些協調那好沒有問題那麼就請東爺把你未來要做的很詳實的書面報告使得動之好不好謝謝這個部分謝謝我們會把這個詳細的資料整理出來"},{"start":6971.169,"end":6975.311,"text":"動結100萬然後這個書面報告完遲得動之80那這個第80案、81案跟82案經過綜合討論就動結100萬那請詳細的運作方式計畫請送這個經濟委員會跟各位委員送出來之後才動之"},{"start":6997.963,"end":7023.284,"text":"來接下來我們請石油基金的部分基金用途83案是通案我們待會再一併處理84案先一份委員改為主決議85案先一份委員凍結10%請行政部門請做說明85案也是委員也是關心我們在石油基金裡面的相關的一些執行成效那這個部分跟剛剛的這個能源基金大概一樣我們在"},{"start":7023.644,"end":7023.844,"text":"哪一位"},{"start":7048.803,"end":7057.336,"text":"我跟裕宇的問題是一樣的,那個您剛講說你這個石油基金這一條是在處理再生能源"},{"start":7060.033,"end":7062.194,"text":"為什麼沒有放在你的能源發展基金裡面?"},{"start":7062.194,"end":7079.607,"text":"使用基金主要是說我們推動再生能源就可以減少石油的使用那我們其實要走到淨零的時候我們是要減少化石燃料的使用所以我們用石油基金去推相關的再生能源的讓它能夠更大的發展的話我們就可以減少化石燃料的使用"},{"start":7080.513,"end":7100.395,"text":"比如說哪一方面比如說像我們像太陽光店或者像我們像推動離岸風電裡面我們離岸風電的這個相關的這個推動辦公室等等這一些我們大概會有這個推動辦公室的設立那另外石油基金本業裡面我們針對一些該監理的部分比如說比如說像這個加油站的管理"},{"start":7101.116,"end":7118.209,"text":"包括天然氣的這個管線的檢查、補助地方政府等等這些那個是屬於法規上賦予我們應該去做監理的部分所以石油基金大概分成兩大塊一塊是在推動這些再生能源一塊是做我們石油管理法跟天然氣事業法裡面針對這些監理的事項的執行"},{"start":7121.295,"end":7141.674,"text":"請參與委員、參與委員發言完我們請謝一芬委員這樣基金的使用目的對嗎?使用基金想像應該是就關於整個石油的利用包括整個石化產業是不是可以讓它更朝向淨零的方向阿如果你說石油基金是在發展再生能源的推動那就"},{"start":7142.298,"end":7150.617,"text":"那就把這個基金編到再生能源發展基金因為基金來源就是在做再生能源了然後你石油基金也是在做再生能源"},{"start":7151.687,"end":7178.078,"text":"對委員報告就是說因為基金來源不一樣其實我們希望基金的來源不一樣石油基金主要是從這個進口的石油裡面去附贈那我們希望他這個附贈進來之後我們現在整個大的方向是要走淨零希望把化石燃料盡量減少所以我們利用這個附贈的方式來附贈的石油基金之後我們去發展再生能源那他就可以減少"},{"start":7179.038,"end":7195.428,"text":"這樣我們對國內的這樣的化石燃料的一些使用所以是從這個角度來出發是符合的是符合的好 我們請下一份委員劉署長 其實你剛才沒有講得更詳細一點因為其實現在天然氣裡面也可以發氫氣"},{"start":7205.674,"end":7226.323,"text":"是不是對於相關的就是天然氣、發氫氣然後再利用碳捕捉的技術等等這相關的那這在某種程度上也比較符合就是未來近年的這個相關的規劃那因為畢竟目前新能源的就是說"},{"start":7227.584,"end":7241.297,"text":"干淨能源的產生以及來源供應的確全球都有不足的情況下那在不得已的情況下以耐天然氣來發清那是不是也是某一種程度"},{"start":7241.857,"end":7259.706,"text":"你說在國際組織上面對於像這種利用天然氣發青的這個到底算不算綠電以及它如果再加上碳捕捉技術是不是也符合就是說目前減碳的標準那你能不能說明一下是"},{"start":7260.826,"end":7284.459,"text":"謝謝委員,委員這專案實在是很專業確實天然氣因為是CH4甲烷它透過這個經過再造之後是可以鍛煉變成碳跟氫沒有錯但是因為它的來源是甲烷所以是CH4本身是含碳所以這含碳把它變成氫之後確實是要透過去碳的技術用CCUS或CCS把碳拿掉這個就是國際上所講的燃氫"},{"start":7286.54,"end":7289.322,"text":"在生能源的綠色電力去電解水電解水之後變成氫氣跟氧氣那個就是單純的綠氫"},{"start":7302.569,"end":7322.448,"text":"但是不管怎樣這個即使用天然氣變成燃氫它也是一個不含碳的電力所以我們在談說如果談淨零的角度來看這個也是一個需要發展的路徑所以我們也有用石油基金就這個相關的這個石油這個怎麼去產生氫氣這塊也是我們研究的一個重點那"},{"start":7323.369,"end":7345.957,"text":"根據報告就包括剛提到的在國外的這一些合作裡面也談國外也很多在發展這個濾清或者是燃清等等那要濾清跟燃清回到國內的情況來看的時候我們現在目前的再生能源主要還是供我們自己的產業使用量還不是很大將來在我們的國內的再生能源越來越多的時候"},{"start":7346.537,"end":7350.3,"text":"如果我們有多餘的氫氣確實可以用多餘的綠電來產生我們的氫氣之後儲存反過來講把這氫氣當作一個儲存的載體這個是有可能可以穩定我們整個電網的系統的"},{"start":7361.323,"end":7379.414,"text":"還有我還有一個相關的就是你能夠繼續給予委員會報告就是說就是未來我們天然氣混清的效率怎麼樣子提升這也是我們能源利用效率的提升再加上這也是減碳的成果"},{"start":7380.014,"end":7407.777,"text":"就是如果天然氣混清的確對減碳的效果是比較大的但是如果就是說發電的效率不彰的時候可能對於整體的就是說發電量或者是我們需求可能又會增加那怎麼樣子達到最適的配比就是天然氣混清怎麼樣達到最適的配比然後提高我們整體的發電效率"},{"start":7408.217,"end":7437.137,"text":"我認為這是未來需要積極去研究以及發展的項目因為當我們的發電效率不高的時候我們使用天然氣的數量可能就必須要增加那這也會相對的增加發電成本雖然即便是達到了減碳的效果那對於發電效率沒有增加的時候我們可能就是"},{"start":7437.637,"end":7464.754,"text":"也對於我們的電價沒有相關的注意好不好是 這個部分我們會注意那我們現在台電的這個混清計畫事實上就是在做一個試驗我們會用5%、10%去測試到哪一個才是它的最適規模因為我們現在的氫氣也還很貴然後混清之後對它的發電效率有一定的程度的影響所以我們會去做不同的試驗然後找出到出一個最佳組合讓對我們的電力系統最有利的一個狀態謝謝委員指導"},{"start":7466.515,"end":7485.985,"text":"最後我們請論委員我是建議因為現在淨零碳排其實是臺灣的目標也是國際的整個趨勢那我覺得其實所有的政府的一些施政當然都朝這個目標來前進那事由基金當然也不例外所以包括後面還有再生能源發展基金我比較傾向署長在談這個其實還是從淨零碳排的角度來處理會比較好一點"},{"start":7487.586,"end":7504.915,"text":"因為談到再生能源的話好像又把它框變成會混在一起我建議用淨零碳排的角度其實更高那事實上這些全部基金的目標都朝這個方向在前進嘛那但是以後我們論述會我建議用這樣的方式比較不會被外界去誤解好不好預算部分我沒有意見謝謝委員指導"},{"start":7506.556,"end":7529.795,"text":"好那在第85案我們經過詳實的討論那這個我們預算照列那也請這個行政部門加油那同時也請你們將我們研究的計畫你們現在預估要怎麼做的方式事辦的那也請表列出來給我們經濟委員會"},{"start":7531.997,"end":7539.044,"text":"因為這個目的就是全球都在討論這個問題那所有的企業界也都很緊張這能源問題所以如果更多的資訊可以告訴社會大眾那我們不管哪個方式哪個管道就大家去宣導讓國內可以更加安定"},{"start":7550.996,"end":7572.124,"text":"目的就是如此所以請你們在今年度所預計要怎麼做的方式事辦也好預計怎麼做請詳細書面資料送請經濟委員會接下來我們第86案、87案、88案、89案、90案其中88案正定在委員改為主決議行政部門請做說明"},{"start":7574.193,"end":7576.134,"text":"這部分是有關於電動機車的推動我們請採訪署來說明採訪署"},{"start":7590.441,"end":7613.986,"text":"主要原因還是在於市場上一些燃油機車的競爭但是在去年結束之後我們今年推出的政策包含除了既有產發屬的補助之外還會沒有像產業園區局一些碳權的一些煤核補助包含像開發的時候他需要做一些碳權的一些補助像雲嘉南還有高品地區我們跟產業園區一起合作來補助一台摩托車4000塊"},{"start":7615.086,"end":7629.676,"text":"後面還有在那個充電站、換電站的部分我會把一些比較非6度的部分會加碼補助它的一個設置那機車行部分目前的一些燃油機車跟電動機車的比例還是比較懸殊所以我們會引導這些像光養或是"},{"start":7630.436,"end":7658.492,"text":"做燃油機車廠的部分燃油車去開始兼賣兼修這些電動機車的部分那像Google這些像電動機車它也可以去進去社區店去服務它的燃油車或電動機車那最後之後我們還會再繼續加碼做一些像企業的合作像最近在台積電它會跟Google合作把這些電動機車放到新竹市去這是我們在產發組一起在努力的事情這個也建議說我們的委員給我們支持這些案子謝謝"},{"start":7659.232,"end":7684.111,"text":"好,謝謝行政部的說明,現在我們請邱議員先發言,繼續再蔡議員好,我請教一下,你們現在那個電動機車的那個補助案充電的跟換電的那個比例是多少那比如說在偏遠的山區,其實你們是不是應該鼓勵比較多是充電的電動機車而不是換電的電動機車"},{"start":7687.654,"end":7697.454,"text":"我舉例講齁比如說從寶萊從六龜的寶萊騎到六龜的市區要42公里他有可能那個電池一換好還沒有騎到家以後已經沒電了"},{"start":7698.769,"end":7719.085,"text":"所以你們在那種這樣子的充電式跟換電式的那個補助的比例或者是設置的比例上面是不是有能夠再去加強第二個我最近在調查因為有人來跟我陳情就是說有一些廠商啊我不要講哪一家啦他們現在提供的那個電池"},{"start":7720.666,"end":7749.467,"text":"整組其實是中國的中國製的我不知道你們有沒有去掌握到這些部分那如果是中國製的你們要不要繼續補助他還是說其實臺灣如果有這樣的研發跟製造能力為什麼不能夠優先補助臺灣製造的電池在充換電的比例的部分的確在因為現在在充電的車款目前是"},{"start":7750.902,"end":7751.022,"text":"發言委員"},{"start":7772.412,"end":7773.073,"text":"中央政府總預算案"},{"start":7788.365,"end":7788.725,"text":"大陸電池新是不准"},{"start":7807.93,"end":7828.485,"text":"是附屬在我們這裡面那過往我們是電池組是要在臺灣做產製但在112年之前是沒有規定用電池機但是中國大陸電池機但是現在已經全部禁止了這個部分我們也會來加強去查緝這個後市長跟工廠檢查的部分以上說明來賴理論委員不好意思參議委員再賴理論委員謝謝還有邱智文委員"},{"start":7832.123,"end":7834.686,"text":"好那我想請教我們現在對於這個電動機車的這個補助那看起來整個電動機車的這個產業目前是靠補助來跟傳統的這個機車"},{"start":7846.66,"end":7869.178,"text":"有競爭力那當然現在我看到的是說電動機車打出他的品牌但是這個品牌的背後卻是忽略了過去傳統的機車他們可能已經有包括上下游的一些產業鏈這中間包括修車包括這個機車的一些零件的一些替換"},{"start":7871.8,"end":7880.828,"text":"電動機車他在打品牌的時候他們卻忽略了這一塊所以你現在說我希望未來可以逐漸那幾家機車產業都走向電動機車阿不然你這樣犧牲的就是那些修車業阿"},{"start":7889.111,"end":7909.326,"text":"那所以變成說你又不能犧牲他們的情況之下你要推動電動汽車來取代傳統的機車然後達到你近鄰的一個目標這件事看起來就是很難了這沒搞因為我們還有那麼多在修車業那些都是就業都是需要就業的人數"},{"start":7910.667,"end":7936.336,"text":"那你們這樣到底有沒有辦法去跟這一些電動機車的產業說他們要怎麼創造他們的上下游產業鏈以及他們的這個產業鏈怎麼跟現有的這一些修車業來做一個搭配這看起來這一塊你們的研究計畫沒有在做阿你們給他們補足阿給他們在價格上有競爭力阿事實上他這個價格競爭力卻沒有辦法去取代過去傳統的家"},{"start":7938.101,"end":7940.043,"text":"那我這樣說你們應該清楚嗎?"},{"start":7940.043,"end":7957.875,"text":"所以我覺得這樣的你們的這個電動機車的這個推動應該有比較固定的一個做法還是你們只是價格補助然後沒有價格競爭力我想要再聽一下好 我們一併發言再請行政部門回答那接下來我們請誰?"},{"start":7957.875,"end":7965.08,"text":"那任委員 謝謝好 謝謝我想電動機車的這個補助的部分這個我們當然支持但我要提的是說"},{"start":7967.214,"end":7992.146,"text":"電動機車的部分它對整個環境的一些影響就是如果一些比較高空污的一些地區我認為應該多有一些些的補助跟誘因去支持他們更多替換我也常講比如在一些空污良好的地區也許電動機車本身是一個進步這個現代的象徵但是如果在一些空污嚴重地區它有可能就會對移動污染源去做一些降低那有可能它由鴻駭變菊井或者是"},{"start":7993.627,"end":8015.112,"text":"稍微降低對整個生理健康都有相當大的幫助那我認為政策引導上應該要給予更多的一些有一些調配啦這樣我認為才能達到整個目標特別是在這個是動用石油基金的狀況下的時候我認為對於煉油的一些場部分我們不可能請煉油廠不煉嘛那煉油的過程勢必會產生一些空汙的影響那應該對這些區域多一些些支持"},{"start":8015.752,"end":8044.839,"text":"讓他在電動這個機車的補助上面有一些更多的支持那如果這些更多的汰換成電動機車的時候也許對於當地的空污狀況就會有效的改善一方面也符合石油基金的目的一方面也對於當地的人民的這個影響或健康影響降到最低我希望這個部分能源署跟產發署能不能給我一份報告好不好就這個部分我認為要有一些差別的思考這個才能對整個達到最大的效益也有助於整個人民的一個健康"},{"start":8045.489,"end":8051.637,"text":"好 謝謝那我們請就這位委員我很納悶喔那個為什麼達成率那麼低阿"},{"start":8053.13,"end":8081.653,"text":"年一年這個補助大概有15億15億也算是一筆不小的數目跟你們設定的目標達成率落差之大你們去檢討為什麼每年落差都那麼大是你們這個計畫設定的太高還是補助進的太少這個你要說明一下不要說跟我說要達成多少目標卻達成率就不到五成"},{"start":8083.075,"end":8088.981,"text":"這個部分是交代不過去,你們提出一個改善的方法到底是問題出在哪裡,可能要說明一下"},{"start":8090.831,"end":8113.059,"text":"好 那在行政部門要做說明之前本席也提問也就是我們的達成率那有錢人家不來申請的那到底是預算多邊不需要還是我們的政策我們的執行面它是跟業者沒有辦法介面那現在早期就每一年都這樣子兩三成兩三成"},{"start":8114.52,"end":8123.388,"text":"那你們從補助油的部分是給他什麼修理的啊、修理的。 那那一修理的,爐內也不會壞掉。 那你們固定那一種東西,一樣修理的、修理的。 那你應該要去滾動式去檢討。 你今天補助的,那沒有那個有錢人家不要的啦。 民眾哭哈哈。"},{"start":8137.441,"end":8155.802,"text":"那你們應該負責任,而不是每一年就一樣我編列多少,我就是補助你油,我的自動車會這麼辛苦,都是最基層在其那你們預算已經沒有辦法執行,你補助的項目為什麼一定要每一年都一樣補助他修理的工具"},{"start":8157.335,"end":8185.547,"text":"早期20年、30年大家自動來修理那慢慢除了有這個電以外油的部分也很多一直推成住信他不修理直接買新的那你們要顧及兩個部分怎麼樣協助我們機車產業第二個也就是你們碳排的部分要怎麼樣讓油電去控好人家要怎麼樣願意去轉那你的電的部分從"},{"start":8186.747,"end":8212.101,"text":"疫情前的10幾%到疫情後攤平到疫情後到目前為止才8%多跟你們原先希望從根源攤牌的部分去補助資的已經不成比例了那你要怎麼樣協助我們的油也協助這個你補助的基金項目要滾動式去檢討你要補一個"},{"start":8213.482,"end":8216.805,"text":"就像守望相助隊你要給他補一個S腰帶、補一個指揮棒我如果連S腰帶、連指揮棒都沒有我怎麼成立這一隊?我的Auto My Tiem你每一年都給他補助這個修理的他沒有需要他當然囉嗦他不會來給你申請你已經達到不及五成的"},{"start":8234.721,"end":8240.826,"text":"這個要送討論欸你達到補助款不及五成你們還不去檢討已經多久一樣延續就是補助這個項目為什麼是這樣子的形態本席一直非常的納悶那第二個議題也就是說你們要進行攤牌怎麼樣去共好你要讓你現在已經可以"},{"start":8256.259,"end":8275.913,"text":"讓油的自動車站可以也共一起也有電你們也這樣子那他們能夠共好要怎麼共好甚至有人提出啊欸店面是我的啊我要賣你的店我有什麼優惠那你如果去鼓勵我的油油的自動車站你買一台這個這個你賣一台這個電動車你"},{"start":8281.016,"end":8308.769,"text":"也可以得到一兩千兩三千的一個補助那他是不是可能有更好的機率不知道很多人一直在替你們想方法但是我們本期聽不到從剛剛所有的委員熱心我們也希望要進行碳排但是你要讓我們的自動車這一些啊是國家最大的寶貝因為他給我們台灣四小龍創造了這個交通工具"},{"start":8309.429,"end":8327.374,"text":"所以你們應該要去滾動式檢討 你的補助項目不達五成的你要怎麼樣去討論 你把機車行邀來嘛 工會邀來嘛 你們的需求是什麼嘛哪有那個每一年立法院審過去的預算達不到兩三成 我們還在審 這個實在是離譜"},{"start":8333.696,"end":8341.679,"text":"對不對?第二個,你們要讓他們油電供好,他要怎麼樣提升?他這層電才八百萬,你怎麼樣碳排?對不對?你要怎麼樣讓他們可以進駐他的自動車站?兩邊因為他自有市場已經佔了七成多了嘛,你唯一從你的自現有市場裡頭去做供好的工作才能夠達到政府你所要的淨零碳排嘛。"},{"start":8359.945,"end":8366.611,"text":"錢要發在有用的身上,這陳如剛才本席有人提議的,你們應該是去把機車的工費、工費、我們的電動車的工費分別先去討論,它的需求是什麼。"},{"start":8376.238,"end":8384.343,"text":"沒有那個我本期再次第3次講沒有那個補助預算人家不要的啦你們跳去過騎騎我們的摩托車站的那什麼什麼的只有補助他修理的我那支路賴碼是是是當年給你申請你也說有問題對不對不要造假啦你預算已經不出去要去檢討啦好不好那各位同仁是不是這樣子齁在我們的預算裡頭"},{"start":8415.82,"end":8430.671,"text":"在我們的預算剛剛86案、87案、88案、89案、90案那90案陳昌明委員跟88案鄭天才委員都改為主決議那其中也有要減列4千萬也有減列500萬也有凍結500萬的也凍結10、凍結還有這個凍結5%的行政部門你們要不要再說明一下"},{"start":8441.548,"end":8441.568,"text":"333會不會繼續?"},{"start":8461.94,"end":8475.018,"text":"會不會退目前333在像電動機車業者所提到的要做加碼補助還有像資費還有像機車行的一些獎金的鼓勵部分我們納入在我們的計劃裡面因為我們在要去跟相關的車廠去做"},{"start":8476.92,"end":8479.542,"text":"這速度要快一點,因為我們幾天在機場在走的自動車站大家都挨挨叫"},{"start":8495.134,"end":8495.274,"text":"給他說明文齁"},{"start":8511.3,"end":8531.613,"text":"那比較偏向剛剛我們賴委員所提到的一些空污的部分的部分的確我們也會來做檢討剛剛提到了像他的一些車子部分是不是可以做一些加碼像我們剛剛提到我們開發高品地區的一些工業區我們也會來加碼都像環境部這邊有個碳泉底外我們會加碼到4000塊一台車就是等於原本7000再加上4000塊是今年我們在寫計畫了"},{"start":8534.517,"end":8545.311,"text":"7000再加什麼4000?4000是我們產業營區局開發園區的時候因為他有一些碳排他要去做那個黃坪承諾所以他要把那個 再加4000就對了就是他在那個高坪地區要開發公園區有個承諾大概是這樣子"},{"start":8549.997,"end":8573.738,"text":"這個是只有高屏還是全部?阿問台中的勒?他有那個分,台中有開發供應區就,台中要有開發供應區,那我們也歡迎地方政府或是像那個竹科的部分,像台積電他也有,他是1500塊,這部分我們也會來跟業者說明說可不可以再加碼一點,就是他會,比方像竹科要開發園區或是你現在說加碼的錢是由廠商出還是我們基金出?"},{"start":8574.678,"end":8594.349,"text":"這個加碼是由業者的應該說由開發的錢比像我們產源局是由開發的錢去支出就是他算在開發的成本裡面比如說4000塊新開發的啦對新開發的像那個科學園區他也要新開發園區像探經他也就有去買這樣子的一個部分這樣子長髮署你這個回答到這裡喔真的大家搖頭"},{"start":8595.762,"end":8600.612,"text":"你新開發的才佔你的比例幾%?你一半這麼大半你不去解決這個問題啊你錢編的送不出去"},{"start":8606.563,"end":8626.125,"text":"這樣的邏輯很奇怪阿你今天台積電你比如說他這個什麼高頻的他站出來會不會站到外面一樣會嘛對不對因為你們基金應該政策需要做一個基礎上的一致性公平性目的是什麼近鄰探盤"},{"start":8627.503,"end":8629.826,"text":"對不對?你們應該是這樣,你如果沒有錢那沒有話講,你有錢,你十股不花錢發不出去一直跟那補助修理的錢省下馬啦,對不對?那你創新的部分就侷限一點點,沒有這樣"},{"start":8645.267,"end":8653.411,"text":"部長 那個修理前前我可以講得清楚啦 那個基金補助我們的郵輪、自動車站、新興的補助他們的新興補助他們修理的工具啦 他們補助兩種 所以錢當然補助不出去啊 這個邏輯太奇怪了啦 對不對 那你等一下再回答你再想一想 那邱議員 邱這位委員 這個"},{"start":8671.133,"end":8688.321,"text":"為什麼執行率達成率會那麼低有兩個原因第一個你補助的金額可能不夠第二個你誘因不足誘因不足又跟你補助金額可能這個還變得太少所以我要檢定你的預算我也沒辦法"},{"start":8689.662,"end":8703.677,"text":"所以我支持趙烈,但是我覺得你們要如何提高誘因,怎麼樣提高達成率,這個很重要所以我建議這筆預算可以用凍結500萬"},{"start":8706.299,"end":8723.737,"text":"提出消息輸入報告怎麼樣提高你們的誘因提高你們達成率動機500萬死的動之好謝謝來我們最後請參議員委員這個預算最後要怎麼編列那這個我都尊重但是我剛還是沒有聽到說我們電動機車跟傳統的燃油機車"},{"start":8727.925,"end":8753.087,"text":"這中間的競合,有就是燃油機車他如果要達到近零他要漸漸的走向退場那如果他要走向退場的話對於他相關的這個產業鏈怎樣釋放出來讓電動機車進入過去傳統的機車的產業鏈讓他可以無縫接軌這一點我沒有聽到你們任何的努力我剛剛都沒有聽到那我是覺得這個讓我很擔心"},{"start":8754.448,"end":8770.096,"text":"你們只是說把電動機車我再加碼給他更便宜讓大家去買那過去的傳統的那一些那一些車行的他們他們沒有誘因阿他們說你一次推動電動機車就經濟完美來要死了阿你對他們沒有交代阿"},{"start":8771.004,"end":8771.024,"text":"蘇貴昌議員"},{"start":8801.084,"end":8824.134,"text":"既有燃油車的機車行也開始打入,包含一些銷售獎勵,還有包含一些試車修理的一些工夫都會交給這些燃油車手。 你是說今年喔?今年開始?對,他們今年會有一千多家的這些傳統燃油,只修燃油車會開始教他。 我們會去看啦,我會再去看,但是我目前沒有感受到那些車行他們對於電動機車要進入市場他們的歡迎,他們幾乎都是抵抗的喔。 是。"},{"start":8826.109,"end":8843.766,"text":"現在討論到現在剛剛廠方署也說就是有廠家已經今年度開始會1000多家從單一的那個不可能因為有還是最原先最基本而且他們遍佈全台"},{"start":8844.746,"end":8866.4,"text":"現在電的他們產業界自己廠商都跑得比政府還快,他們願意共好。 電子車店內可以有油、有電、有油電。 大家融合在一起。這是企業界、產業界幫助我們政府在做。 那剛剛所說的這一些政府你協助他什麼?"},{"start":8867.495,"end":8888.799,"text":"所以就有人建議說說那你已經在你這一家autobike店裡面有油我也可以賣電我autobike店我管你要這樣做的時候你政府會合作我想你現在有補助民眾嘛買車的時候嘛那你有沒有補助我autobike店比如說我買一台電動車我買一台電動車你補我三千"},{"start":8892.22,"end":8897.304,"text":"我就是慢慢慢慢他們就一直融合一直融合有沒有可行性這樣我不知道"},{"start":8922.54,"end":8924.461,"text":"基金、水資源作業基金、水資源作業基金、水資源作業基金、"},{"start":8944.13,"end":8958.608,"text":"應該要因應人家所需要的你一直幾十年都這樣修理也太離譜了 對不對你們儘速去討論你補助的項目、你補助的金額、你補助的方式"},{"start":8959.729,"end":8974.874,"text":"要怎麼樣去達到共好跟淨零碳排剛剛所有的委員都提供了很多寶貴的意見你們趕快進速去跟這些工會去做討論你們大概多久會提出方案出來你們給一個時間吧"},{"start":8979.417,"end":9002.794,"text":"所以看你們在討論時間的時候我也敬請我們行政部門因為我們好不容易可以當到政府的官員是在為人民做事也為我們自己在做事因為我們都生活在台灣所以大家要用點心沒有幾十年來執行率都這種型的我們還不給他改變"},{"start":9004.071,"end":9017.479,"text":"對不對?因為公務人員應該勇於創新看求明末勇於創新啦好大概多久時間了?好主席我們大概2個月時間齁因為啦可能比較多的廠商還要對2個月時間這個我很贊同喔我們就是真正務實要做事啦好不好就2個月內請你們將跟油電工會所討論我們要怎麼樣達到淨零碳排讓我們的機車業者、油電"},{"start":9034.149,"end":9051.287,"text":"都能夠共好的方案兩個月內送交本委員會我願意給這麼長的時間就是請你們辛苦趕快去跟業者好好去討論因為我們制定出來的政策就是要讓執行者可以執行啊不然我們頂嘴還沒做還是一樣這1、20%笑話人生啊 對不對"},{"start":9056.793,"end":9083.849,"text":"那在這個部分呢我們就以各位同仁以兩個月的時間請他們跟相關單位跟相關工會去研討方案出來那也請財發署你們在討論的時候也可以要令其他工會出來我們經濟委員會大家都通知我們經濟委員會我們一起啊三方來討論好好去協調去討論出方向幫助我們的台灣嘛好不好你們要跟工會討論的時候一併通知我們經濟委員會是是"},{"start":9086.491,"end":9113.374,"text":"好不好,我們大家一起來努力所以以兩個月內的時間去研討這個方案出來那我們86案到90案其中有88案做主決議90案做主決議那預算凍結剛剛有委員提議凍結500萬等你們方案出來之後討論後使得動之好,各位同仁OK"},{"start":9115.175,"end":9138.101,"text":"謝謝來接下來我們91案跟92案並案討論請行政部門說明91、92是有關住宅能效這就是我們講的那個一級能效的家電補助冷氣跟冰箱那委員這邊主要的意見是說為什麼提早都用完了編的不夠那我這邊做個說明就是我們在規劃這個案子的時候是用過去的歷史資料太舊跟"},{"start":9138.821,"end":9139.822,"text":"接下來再生能源發展基金"},{"start":9164.585,"end":9170.349,"text":"那基金用途的部分我們939495案是通過我們待會再一併處理96、97、98案我們有提出凍結5000萬本席還有賴樂隆委員凍結500萬行政部門請做說明"},{"start":9183.018,"end":9201.716,"text":"是,那委員這邊關心的大概是我們的公民電廠的支用的成效沒有那麼理想那這邊跟委員報告就是公民電廠因為確實是要整合到我們整個的一個社區然後要整合到一個是社區一個是我們NGO團體等等這一些所以要到真正的能夠到落實發電需要有一些時間"},{"start":9202.677,"end":9222.205,"text":"那我們現在已經有一個個案已經走到我們的第二階段整合完成是在南寮地區這部分在陸續慢慢的會有成效出來所以這部分的公民電廠的推動我們會持續的努力是不是委員給我們支持我們的預算我們努力來做來各位同仁有沒有要發言那這個有我在阿"},{"start":9233.229,"end":9249.086,"text":"行政部門,其實凍結你們預算跟檢列對你們是沒什麼影響,但是本席還是尊重你們,因為你們實際上也做不了,所以本席還是鼓勵你們辛苦加油,但是你們目前已經有一個案子出來,"},{"start":9249.807,"end":9268.377,"text":"那你們在整個過程當中可以有怎麼樣去檢討你的流程可以怎麼樣簡化給民眾更方便這樣子你們應該藉由已經有一個二階的這個部分去做整體性的SOP流程去做討論那往後要做複製複製可能會比較快"},{"start":9269.217,"end":9279.585,"text":"我們有檢討過去的經濟部合作的事情。 好吧,那你們把你們檢討的方案也送交給經濟委員會。 是,好的。 好吧,那96案、97案、98案、96案楊瓊玉的作為主決議免利,然後我們預算照列接下來99案到106案各位同仁我們一併討論那其中有102案陳昌明委改為主決議,行政部門請做說明。"},{"start":9295.956,"end":9310.864,"text":"好這下面的主要是針對我們的一個地熱的一個補助那地熱的他的一個最大的風險就是在探勘所以我們編的這個經費是針對地熱開發的探勘補助那探勘補助因為前面的前期的作業程序比較繁瑣"},{"start":9311.784,"end":9337.058,"text":"所以過去執行的這樣的一個成績不如理想不過現在的我們手上有的24個申請案已經都陸續的開始做實質的專探工作後續如果這個產能測試完之後就可以做到實質的開發那這個補助款大概就可以撥出去所以有關地熱也是我們除了風光之外其實我們講說未來很重要的一個再生能源所以請委員會是不是支持我們地熱的經費能夠"},{"start":9338.539,"end":9365.073,"text":"不予凍結刪減讓我們來做推動地熱的工作以上好謝謝我們請邱應委員我請教一下齁你們那個地熱的補助你說現在已經有24個單位申請有24個申請案24個申請案那大部分是什麼呀是學校的研究呢還是沒有就是實際我們這個錢是補助給開發者開發業者如果他去做專探的話我們針對專探的費用我們最高可以補助到50%上限是1億"},{"start":9366.954,"end":9379.243,"text":"那他們在他們地熱的研究普遍是分布在哪些地方?地熱的研究的話其實我們是透過一些法人我就不佔用你們太多時間是不是可以給我一些詳細的報告好不好那預算我就支持了"},{"start":9380.506,"end":9408.883,"text":"好那經過詳實討論我們在99案到這個106案因為提案委員、邱映委員在現場那我們提案委員不在現場我們除了陳昌平委員第102案改為主決議我們尊重這個邱映委員就由凍結5%的改為不凍預算照列但是相關的資料請送交經濟委員會跟本委員會"},{"start":9411.145,"end":9416.409,"text":"中小企業發展基金 基金用途部分107案是通案 接下來108、109、110、111共同討論 請行政部門做說明"},{"start":9429.069,"end":9450.783,"text":"謝謝主席那108案之後這幾個案子都是針對我們加強加速中小企業投資方案的針對一些預算執行的部分希望我們做一些改善那目前這個因為受到疫情的影響還有物價上漲以及缺工的影響所以在過去幾年有一些案件他"},{"start":9451.863,"end":9452.083,"text":"第11屆第11屆第11屆"},{"start":9469.568,"end":9471.31,"text":"中央政府總預算案附屬單位預算基金、水資源"},{"start":9492.387,"end":9521.066,"text":"在加速他們的整個投資計劃的一個進行所以更新委員沒有動輒沒有刪除希望讓我們可以照預算來執行因為這些都是給中小企業的一種協助謝謝好我們有沒有我們請聽委員我的就改成主決議好那經過詳實的說明我們108案改為主決議那我們預算照列也請行政部門加油"},{"start":9522.547,"end":9523.307,"text":"112案、113案、113案政經財委員已經改為主決議"},{"start":9539.013,"end":9551.345,"text":"政經財委員改組決議了齁,好,我們那個那因為我們不在現場齁,針對中小企業發展的我想專業的部分我們就預算照列啦,請行政部門加油齁好,決議的部分來,114案?"},{"start":9551.345,"end":9552.085,"text":"尊詐辦理通過115案?"},{"start":9552.085,"end":9553.006,"text":"尊詐辦理通過116案?"},{"start":9553.006,"end":9553.327,"text":"尊詐辦理通過117案?"},{"start":9562.796,"end":9576.868,"text":"遵照辦理通過118案遵照辦理通過119案遵照辦理通過120案遵照辦理通過121案遵照辦理通過122案遵照辦理123案遵照辦理通過124案遵照辦理125案遵照辦理126案遵照辦理127案遵照辦理通過128案遵照辦理通過129案遵照辦理通過130案"},{"start":9590.919,"end":9595.502,"text":"陳昌明委員也同意我們改為主決議 那個文字修正 這本來就是主決議啊 是 文字修正修正怎麼樣"},{"start":9622.04,"end":9639.739,"text":"文字修正我這邊念一下在倒數這個第三行的部分第二行的部分就是原要求經濟部於三個月內向本院經濟委員會提出書面報告一個月改三個月是好那我們照修正文字通過謝謝來接下來我們河南發"},{"start":9643.464,"end":9657.94,"text":"核能發電後端營運基金因為我們不休息一直到今天要處理的會議結束所以如果有生理需求請主動接下來我們核能發電"},{"start":9659.722,"end":9669.208,"text":"後端營運基金的部分基金用途140案通案我們待會再處理141案跟142案那這個政經財委員改為主決議那所以那個賴論委員不在現場我們就照案通過行政部門加油143案到147案政經財委員改為主決議那其他有三位"},{"start":9683.959,"end":9705.531,"text":"有三位委員所作的提案不在現場所以我們就預算照列行政部門家有148案到151案有三位委員所作的提案儲存計畫的部分因為不在現場所以我們就預算照列"},{"start":9706.992,"end":9735.324,"text":"那行政部門加有152案到155案的這個部分呢核能燃料最終處置場的部分有鄭天才委員、張其凱委員、陳庭菲委員還有賴瑞文委員那行政部門請做說明OK是總共在這裡跟委員報告的大概就是有關於用過核子燃料這個目前的這個儲存的計畫"},{"start":9736.738,"end":9759.51,"text":"那以邱委員、邱志偉、邱委員裡面他只要針對我目前來講所謂的用過核燃料的室外甘薯還有室內甘薯的這一部分的石塵的這一塊這一塊可能那這一塊來講其實到目前來講在今年度來講我們已經有比較好的做法目前那個麥克風拿高一點這樣聽不到"},{"start":9760.771,"end":9774.612,"text":"目前已經在合一廠的部分目前合一廠的部分大概已經跟新北市有一個初步的已經和解了已經和解那核二大概我們會比照合一廠的方式這樣來辦理所以相關的預算大概"},{"start":9775.999,"end":9793.542,"text":"今年大概都會順利來推動那室內乾除的部分目前合一場也在辦理一個招標的作業那接著合二合三場的室內乾除的部分我們也會接著做這是大概第一個說明所以肯定委員支持這部分大概免動那有關於"},{"start":9795.607,"end":9811.074,"text":"152案到155案各位同仁153案改為主決議那剛剛行政部門所說的提案委員、賴瑞文委員、曾經澤委員在現場那請問各位委員152案到155案"},{"start":9818.442,"end":9825.349,"text":"行政部門,你們剛剛所做的說明就是在今年度你們是可以執行之對,針對求委員的151案左右你說什麼我現在已經討論152案到155案了"},{"start":9842.95,"end":9845.793,"text":"我們現在所討論的是152案到155案153案改為主決議"},{"start":9867.287,"end":9872.396,"text":"你現在剛剛所說明的是你的預算可以執行之是151案還是152案到155案請做說明151案可以如期執行那152案的部分"},{"start":9882.247,"end":9908.219,"text":"他剛剛解釋的不對不對不對我們審預算還是不能太呼嚨還是要按照規矩你剛剛所談的是151案的部分嘛對不對可以執行之所以我們已經照原列數通過現在討論152案到155案用過核子燃料最終處置計畫所以我嚇一跳你剛剛跟我說你今年可以執行我嚇一跳來153案已經改為主決議請做說明"},{"start":9913.943,"end":9933.973,"text":"目前編列的目前來講目前有關於高放處置的這一部分有關於一些安全論證還有一些研究案都會如期的來執行因為這個東西是屬於持續性的工作所以肯定委員支持"},{"start":9935.414,"end":9949.887,"text":"所以換句話說152案到155案今年度你編列的2億6那是不可能有辦法執行嘛依照你們目前的進度是不是 是要講清楚啊你剛剛回答是152案到155案會執行我嚇一跳"},{"start":9954.071,"end":9958.958,"text":"是不可能的啊,所以你們現在只有這個什麼論壇啊什麼的嘛,對不對?"},{"start":9958.958,"end":9965.247,"text":"是,還有9...所以你的錢根本是每一年固定帳邊執行率不到一成嘛,是不是如此?"},{"start":9965.247,"end":9969.392,"text":"沒有,高放可以,高放去年大概八成左右"},{"start":9972.752,"end":9993.51,"text":"請問給我一個答案好嗎就是152萬到155萬你們用過核子燃料最終組織計畫你們預估今年度你可執行的預算是多少以去年來講去年大概執行到87%那今年我們也大概將近會到九成九成以上為什麼理由去年八十幾成你現在可以九成 增加什麼"},{"start":9994.15,"end":10010.701,"text":"主要是今年的有一些研究案,因為它是持續性的工作,所以今年大概有關於...那持續性本來是每一年,去年也是持續性啊,你不新增啊?你不要隨便回答,這些都有錄音錄影啊主席好不好來那個邱志偉委員,因為他先舉手"},{"start":10011.809,"end":10031.46,"text":"市長,我剛提150151,我還要提醒一下,不管是核一廠一號機儲備期程的你們這個規劃,或者是核二廠用過的核子燃料儲存計畫,事情狀況裡面還是要提一個檢討報告來。是,沒問題。我不動齁,但是你不要說我不動,你的報告就不行。是。"},{"start":10032.981,"end":10041.727,"text":"所以這兩項報告還是要如期把它寫完?是,我們提出報告好,那這個151案是剛剛已經通過兆元劣數所以邱志文也要求的"},{"start":10049.212,"end":10065.536,"text":"提的計劃請書面資料進述給本委員會跟我們委員那152到153呢到155、153已經作為主權役那這個你們預估要怎麼做的執行計劃我們預算"},{"start":10068.197,"end":10083.925,"text":"不剪也不動雖然你話不完但是我們還是一樣尊重你們所以你們加油但是你把你們的計畫提列出來要送到委員會預算照列156案陳景輝委員不在現場我們就不做處理決議的部分157案"},{"start":10088.407,"end":10092.868,"text":"後端營運提撥時程在114年5月17日戒期應該是114年戒期不是5月17日戒期就是說後端基金"},{"start":10109.949,"end":10117.892,"text":"後端基金提撥的話應該是在114年底屆期我們就在114年底可以提撥完成 114年12月借期就修正這個照修正文字通過來150份案 遵照辦理通過各位同仁還有"},{"start":10140.014,"end":10153.65,"text":"那各位同仁對細項的部分我們已經充分討論通案的部分那除了改列組決意外我們不再處理那現在請宣讀這個協商結論"},{"start":10157.895,"end":10174.432,"text":"宣讀學商結論經濟作業基金第一案預算照列本案改為主決議第二案預算照列本案改為主決議第三案至第八案預算照列其中第三案第八案改為主決議第九案到第十一案預算照列"},{"start":10175.731,"end":10180.935,"text":"第12案預算照列本案改為主決議。 第13案預算照列本案改為主決議。"},{"start":10200.236,"end":10228.102,"text":"第13案預算照列本案改為主決議第14案、15案預算照列本案均改為主決議主決議部分第16案到26案照案通過第27案修正通過第28案到30案照案通過第31案修正通過第32案、33案、34案照案通過第35案修正通過"},{"start":10230.333,"end":10258.321,"text":"水資源作業基金第36案照案通過增列2000萬元第37案預算照列本案改為主決議第38案至41案預算照列本事案均改為主決議第42案預算照列本案改為主決議主決議部分43案修正通過44案到51案均照案通過經濟特別收入基金第52案"},{"start":10259.981,"end":10271.425,"text":"預算照列第53案推廣貿易基金第54案到57案除55案改為主決議案通案部分不再處理第58案至59案預算照列第59案改為主決議第60案到62案預算照列其中60案61案改為主決議"},{"start":10284.89,"end":10303.164,"text":"第63案預算照列本案改為主決議第64案、65案預算照列本二案均改為主決議第66案到69案其中67案改為主決議貿易推廣工作計畫向下捐助補助與獎助簡列1000萬元"},{"start":10309.451,"end":10333.1,"text":"第70案、71案屬通案部分不再處理第72案至74案預算照列本3案均改為主決議第75案預算照列本案改為主決議第76案預算照列本案改為主決議第77案預算照列本案改為主決議第78案、79案預算照列其中79案改為主決議"},{"start":10334.48,"end":10359.322,"text":"第80案至82案其中81案改為主決議能源研究發展工作計畫向下經濟部近臨推動匯報平台運作凍結100萬元提出書面報告後使得動之第83案通案部分不再處理第84案預算照列本案改為主決議第85案預算照列"},{"start":10360.404,"end":10372.399,"text":"第86案到96案其中88案到90案改為主決議政府除由石油開發及技術研究計畫向下電動機車產業環境加值補助凍結500萬元提出書面報告後使得動資"},{"start":10379.246,"end":10391.689,"text":"第91案、92案預算照列第93案至95案通案部分除93案、94案改為主決議之外不再處理第96案至98案預算照列第96案改為主決議第99案至106案106案其中102案改為主決議預算照列"},{"start":10405.873,"end":10416.378,"text":"中橋企業發展基金107案通案部分不再處理第108案至111案預算照列其中108案改為主決議第113案預算照列其中113案改為主決議主決議部分114案到137案均照案通過"},{"start":10433.035,"end":10446.085,"text":"到138案均照案通過139案修正通過核後端營運基金第140案通案部分不再處理第141案、42案預算照列其中142案改為主決議143案至147案預算照列其中143案改為主決議"},{"start":10455.331,"end":10460.213,"text":"148案至151案預算照列152案至155案預算照列其中153案改為主決議第156案預算照列主決議部分157案修正通過158案照案通過宣讀完畢好那"},{"start":10477.854,"end":10489.605,"text":"請問各位同仁有委員提案的這個部分照剛才宣讀的結論通過沒有提案的部分均照列或隨同調整請問有沒有異議"},{"start":10494.986,"end":10517.322,"text":"好沒有異議那我們通過113年度經濟部主管非營業基金審查完略通過之決議文字授權本席及議事人員整理那主席台在這邊宣告本會負責審查的113年度非營業基金的預算全部審查完略你一句"},{"start":10518.323,"end":10539.864,"text":"審查報告送財政委員會診本會審查結果請問需不需要經過黨團協商需要那院會討論室有本席來說明本日所列的議程處理完略明天上午9點我們繼續開會現在休息這個不要了好辛苦"},{"start":10541.755,"end":10542.075,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10566.744,"end":10567.185,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10575.475,"end":10588.544,"text":"第11屆第1會期經濟部主管：基金、水資源作業基金、核能發電後端營運基金、核能發電後端營運基金、核能發電後端營運基金、核能發電後端營運基金、核能發電後端營運基金、核能發電後端營運基金、核能發電後端營運基金、核能發電後端營運基金、"},{"start":10597.169,"end":10598.45,"text":"6月10日、5月1日及5月1日"},{"start":10616.025,"end":10618.447,"text":"好,我就再寫個時間這樣,好好好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"15865","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15865","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685648a477557a3c4750f9a65472a0a5ac33be8d109af184be4944de7d32f6aa23b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查\n一、委員黃捷等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十七條條文修正草案」案。\n三、委員陳亭妃等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條、第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n四、委員蘇清泉等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n五、委員郭昱晴等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十八條及第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n六、委員葛如鈞等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n七、委員徐巧芯等24人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n八、委員陳冠廷等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n九、委員黃健豪等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十、委員林宜瑾等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第三十九條之一條文草案」案。\n十一、委員李坤城等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十二、委員沈伯洋等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n十三、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n十四、委員廖偉翔等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案」案。\n十五、委員廖偉翔等17人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例增訂第四十一條之一條文草案」案。\n十六、委員王育敏等19人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n十七、委員黃建賓等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案」案。\n十八、委員許宇甄等26人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第二條及第三十八條條文修正草案」案。\n十九、委員王世堅等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十、委員陳菁徽等16人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十一、委員王美惠等18人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案。\n二十二、國民黨黨團擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十三、委員王鴻薇等25人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二十四、委員萬美玲等20人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第四十四條、第五十一條及第五十三條之一條文修正草案」案。\n二十五、委員賴士葆等22人擬具「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條條文修正草案」案...等36案。\n【第一案至第二十四案，如經復議則不予審查；第二十五案至第三十六案，如未經各黨團簽署不復議同意書，則不予審查】\n【4月29日及5月1日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-01","start_time":"2024-05-01T08:30:46+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境、司法及法制委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[26,36],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-26,36-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-01T16:17:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":27974,"委員發言時間":"08:30:46 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個條文那我提出來的部分呢是希望可以多增加就是上課的部分在我們的課綱裡面就是可以可以增加兩個小時"},{"start":1907.401,"end":1907.601,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":1925.435,"end":1929.656,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":1947.543,"end":1975.363,"text":"就是在學校裡面課程他接受一定時數的這個課程所以我想我會提出來的這個條文的修正也是認為應該是要讓這個孩子這個是要比較是去讓教育部意識到這個問題的嚴重性而且是可以直接明文入法讓各校在課綱裡面都要安排足夠的時數然後來教育孩子"},{"start":1976.032,"end":1976.072,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":1994.423,"end":2013.887,"text":"修法要與時俱進。未來這個有關於兒少性剝削的議題,隨著網際網路的發達,孩子在上網的時間增加,反而這一類的時數才是應該要去增加。所以教育部可以自行回去去調整你原來在性評課程裡面的這個比重。"},{"start":2014.383,"end":2018.165,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":2039.575,"end":2067.624,"text":"這個也是為什麼我們今天還需要再修法那去年的修法沒有意識到這一點但是我覺得當我們討論到很多孩子被害之後在後面做的修補動作倒不如也要多花一點時間在前端因為這個是可以透過教育的就是在前端去教育孩子怎麼樣避免就是去防止這樣的情況發生懂得去自我保護我覺得這一點其實是蠻重要的好不好所以我是希望"},{"start":2068.243,"end":2071.404,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":2094.494,"end":2095.174,"text":"爾童及少年性剝削"},{"start":2120.624,"end":2120.924,"text":"好,謝謝王委員。"},{"start":2150.208,"end":2162.742,"text":"教育部表示意見教育部對於第四條基本上我們在12年的國民基本教育課綱裡面"},{"start":2164.934,"end":2179.048,"text":"則融入性別平等教育。議題融入手冊裡對於主題,包括身體自主權的尊重及維護性騷擾、性侵、性霸凌的防制,都包含在性剝削相關議題。"},{"start":2180.069,"end":2196.398,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少"},{"start":2209.525,"end":2223.629,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。議員林�"},{"start":2233.552,"end":2260.683,"text":"身體自主權的維護及立場表達與行動性騷擾及性侵的自我防護觀念各校都會依課綱規定落實推動性別平等教育議題的相關教學本部國教署為了強化教師的教學智能今年也會以性別暴力防制為主題研發教材包提供國民中小學教師結合在課堂及全校性活動"},{"start":2261.523,"end":2286.093,"text":"那麼也會在近期邀請衛福部、縣市還有學校還有相關的教師團體代表針對兒童性剝削教育如何實施做盡力不得討論來規劃基本能力的架構、教學勢力跟充分運用於校園維護兒童的最佳利益。那目前性平教育法第18條那剛剛趙薇也講國民教育"},{"start":2286.973,"end":2309.329,"text":"公民中小學將性別教育融入課程外,還要每學期實施性別平等教育相關課程或活動四小時。高級中等學校及專科學校五年制前三年將性別平等教育融入課程,學校可以透過各種主題內容安排進行性剝削相關教學內容。"},{"start":2314.212,"end":2328.963,"text":"那麼為了要穩健的推動我們這個兒童性剝削的課程跟性別平等教育,五二十二年國教課綱的這個布定跟校定課程,學校會結合地區的資源跟課程多元的彈性,透過"},{"start":2329.804,"end":2345.657,"text":""},{"start":2346.338,"end":2365.012,"text":"教育團體的修法意見,教育團體表示每學期至少兩小時的兒童性剝削防制課程,因為目前課程時間已經滿,每學期的總學期輸出有限,修法後所有課程"},{"start":2365.892,"end":2388.461,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條條文修正草案案。案。議員林"},{"start":2392.142,"end":2421.408,"text":""},{"start":2421.808,"end":2449.404,"text":"第剛剛對於第四條第三項這個幼兒部份剛剛幾位委員也指教那我們的部分也認為是說教保服務人員為兒童性剝削防制條教育的宣導對象透由教保服務人員與教保活動課程設計中建立幼兒園正確的防制觀念對於委員的這個提案這個也就沒有相關其他意見以上報告"},{"start":2450.339,"end":2471.696,"text":"好,我們請陳昭志委員。是,剛剛教育部的發言就是說沒有再針對性,到最後一兩句帶過。因為這個主席他提的重點是幼兒園應該實施兒童及少年性剝削防制教育。我們要重點在這個,因為他們不懂嘛,剛剛王委員也有講,他們是幼兒,所以你要怎麼教育他們,誰來教育他們。"},{"start":2473.658,"end":2488.481,"text":"就是怎麼讓幼兒會去理解這件事情?誰來做?這個跟剛剛你提到的高中或中學的完全是不同。就是這個重點你要怎麼來做呢?請你就發言就這個部分的重點做回答,麻煩。"},{"start":2490.024,"end":2490.044,"text":"議員林岱樺"},{"start":2520.805,"end":2526.488,"text":"二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":2542.83,"end":2567.909,"text":"好 謝謝委員的意見那我想謝謝多位委員都支持這一條應該要入法所以這一條我請教育部就是你們看文字還有哪邊要修不是不修是要修那就是文字怎麼調整剛剛針對委員的意見文字怎麼調整你們待會請相關工作人員就開始去修正好不好那我們這一條先保留再回過頭來的時候我們就是"},{"start":2570.522,"end":2592.61,"text":"要看這個文字。那這一條我們是要修法的,但是文字請教育部再來做這個相關委員意見的調整。接下來我們進行第五條。第五條提案委員、經費委員有沒有要再補充說明?因為行政機關寫建議維持現行條文。"},{"start":2595.873,"end":2624.596,"text":"這個非常多委員都已經質詢過上次呢衛福部因為要發行政命令所以過了一到三天才有辦法到數位部那去做封網的動作所以我會希望說假使有重大的兒童性剝削犯罪事件發生就可以儘速成立有這個法源可以成立跨部會的專案小組的話就不會有這麼慢的速度才可以執行也可以直接可以"},{"start":2625.316,"end":2632.58,"text":"議員林岱樺也有提案。我這邊還是要再三強調,因為大警政署上次有在報告裡面有特別提說展示"},{"start":2650.077,"end":2665.282,"text":""},{"start":2665.282,"end":2681.937,"text":""},{"start":2682.417,"end":2685.601,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":2704.218,"end":2733.536,"text":"我覺得應該要建立被害人的影像資料庫然後建立在警政署而不是現在期待要信影像中心來做信影像中心來做的方法上並不一樣信影像中心來做的是等於是說我今天給了你一個我去信影像中心申訴然後給了一個網路連結然後你就通知那個平台把連結拿下來他根本沒有所謂影像然後甚至展示做的又是比較是在於單比是受害人"},{"start":2733.916,"end":2754.224,"text":""},{"start":2756.352,"end":2776.542,"text":"則編大概只是要專責機構如果說我們去年改了那的確2月15號修正之後可先發現新的問題是不是政府部門我想編這些錢跟人不是一個一樣講齁如果以孩子的受到很大的傷害來橫比的話我認為編專責機構編錢來設專責機構跟人一切都是值得的以上請范雲委員"},{"start":2785.699,"end":2786.179,"text":"主要有三個原因"},{"start":2801.224,"end":2822.852,"text":"因為警方查扣的性影像其實是可以使用軟體生成這個雜臭值就是剛剛岳勤委員講的就是說這個方式那他能夠很快速的做性影像的比對下架那將來如果在網路上發現性影像的話直接就用這個軟體生成的這個雜臭值比對那可以在短時間就知道被害人是誰而且就直接移除如果他曾經報過案已經有這個資料"},{"start":2824.953,"end":2827.755,"text":"二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具、「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2846.544,"end":2869.053,"text":""},{"start":2869.193,"end":2876.479,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2889.648,"end":2897.112,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":2917.262,"end":2917.282,"text":"趙執委員"},{"start":2940.703,"end":2944.125,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2957.074,"end":2970.932,"text":"就是說他是要作為鑑別鑑別或比對等等之用所以是不是在資料庫的名稱上我們從被害人影像、性影像資料庫系統可不可能改成被害人性影像鑑識資料庫系統因為這個資料庫的目的是為了做這個"},{"start":2974.136,"end":2975.757,"text":"二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2993.163,"end":3009.926,"text":"那是不是這個資料庫的查閱也要留下做記錄就是說以上三點就是說不要外包然後第二點就是說這個名稱是不是改成鑑識系統因為它只允許做這些事情第三個就是說要記錄所有查閱過的人好謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":3022.233,"end":3039.681,"text":"我也非常支持資料庫的建立,這個原因有幾個。第一個就是說,我們其實受理機關,不論是處理中心或者是各地方的警政單位,其實他們都有自己轄區界線的範疇,而且都會各司所職。"},{"start":3040.882,"end":3058.749,"text":"那其實一個個案往往可能不是只有他看到的一個個案,這個個案可能背後是一個組織性的而且集團性的。那我們知道這個網路啊,網路的越南啊,是無區域的界線,它是無,甚至連國界都沒有了。那所以你用一個受理的機關這麼,他所受理的這個報案數的量這麼少跟整個"},{"start":3064.751,"end":3089.8,"text":"而資料庫的建立來講它其實是沒有辦法比的所以有一個統整的資料庫在那裡的話我們就可以把全台灣的甚至國際的所有的這個受害的或者是加害的這原始的資料儲存在那裡那即便它是一個區域型的受理的機關它也可以馬上立即的就可以修正比對"},{"start":3090.7,"end":3101.986,"text":"所以這個事情的確是有助於破案也有助於這個受害者的保護的所以面對這種集團組織式的犯罪我們也一定要建立這個資料庫"},{"start":3112.92,"end":3125.709,"text":"陳委員我只是要呼應因為許多委員都有提到資料庫但是加在第五條我自己是加在第三條但是我可以從善如流我可以從善如流我可以加在第五條我是沒有什麼特別的意見"},{"start":3127.992,"end":3147.314,"text":"關於資料庫的建立,因為我們已經有加報資料庫,所以不管是兒校的或是性侵或是加報等等,其實速發部提供的這些區塊鏈加密等等技術未來應該都要一體適用,因為對於資料的保密還有保存都非常的重要。"},{"start":3150.066,"end":3170.729,"text":"主席,我們在這裡立法的過程,修法的過程,我想我們是不是應該再仔細的談清楚,這個資料庫到底是要放什麼內容?如果今天在這個法律的修法過程沒有把這個內容講清楚、界定清楚,可能在執行上它就跟我們期待的會有落差喔。"},{"start":3171.249,"end":3180.294,"text":"所以這裡是不是要明定進去或是在立法修那個說明欄裡面也應該寫進去就是說什麼東西應該要放進去這個絕對不能夠空白授權或者是你要空白授權也應該說這個原則訂出來以後然後交給行政執行機關去再訂出執法這樣子這個恐怕有一點複雜所以不能夠空白授權應該稍微再界定一下內容和範疇"},{"start":3201.69,"end":3227.447,"text":"主席不好意思,因為剛剛這個王委員他去質詢了那我再簡單再講剛剛三個重點也跟著回應這個林淑芬委員所提的就是這個資料庫我覺得非同小可所以第一個他應該由官方不准外包我們希望如此第二個就是說他的名稱如果能夠改成影像鑑識資料庫系統跟一般的資料庫不一樣因為他有他特定的目的就是為了保護這個資料安全性第三個凡查閱的人必留下記錄"},{"start":3228.348,"end":3238.507,"text":"就這三個重點,我不曉得有沒有辦法適度也放在這個地方。謝謝主席。那行政單位,警政署有沒有意見表達一下?"},{"start":3247.056,"end":3268.789,"text":"一、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條條文修正草案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十一條條及第五十一條條條文修正草案"},{"start":3269.529,"end":3283.72,"text":"警政主管機關應指定並設立專責單位建立被害人性影像資料庫並利用性影像資料庫協助犯罪偵查。"},{"start":3289.545,"end":3303.712,"text":"那有關第二項信用向資料庫資料儲存、管理、使用及提供的辦法由主管機關、衛務部跟內政部會選來來訂定之。內容呢?什麼東西一定要放進去這個資料庫?所有的受害影片以外還有什麼?"},{"start":3320.281,"end":3348.608,"text":"內容應該就是說即便是受害的影片也不可以不得已我先解釋一下齁這個東西本來希望建這個資料庫並不是把影像建置下來是要把它轉化成Hash值之後儲存去做比對所以為什麼我這邊寫是說這個資料庫的整個的資料儲存因為如果事實上是影像的話應該會在司法體系被扣押了所以只是要把它轉化成Hash值之後"},{"start":3348.848,"end":3376.323,"text":""},{"start":3376.463,"end":3381.486,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":3399.155,"end":3414.241,"text":""},{"start":3414.241,"end":3436.152,"text":""},{"start":3436.847,"end":3463.59,"text":"這個建制在哪裡可能也要討論清楚,但是就是說這個文字我建議以月期就是說能不能調整這個到底這些執行的應進行的程序這相關的執法的規定要由誰訂定就由主管機關會同這個目的事業主管機關去訂定你寫的是內政部但是是是不是只有內政部"},{"start":3465.8,"end":3483.406,"text":"會不會也有需要檢查單位的等等?部長,你要不要表示意見?就是說,如果由主管機關會同目的事業主管機關共同定之,但是這裡面沒有解決到說那到底是要放在哪裡?"},{"start":3485.81,"end":3502.955,"text":"首先,這個條文的前面是警政主管機關要指定或設立專責單位辦理下列事項其中第一款就是要建立被害人現影像資料庫的系統所以主責單位已經是警政主管機關了"},{"start":3504.937,"end":3527.478,"text":"然後這個資料、這個現象資料庫的這些相關的辦法要衛福部來訂,這有點奇怪啦。我是建議,如果說要警政主管機關來設立的話,應該就是警政主管機關基於他在實際上的運作的時候,去訂這些相關的執法規。"},{"start":3529.386,"end":3551.915,"text":"但是需要協同的,大家在討論都忘了蘇衛部了。好。月琴,我聽董部長的講法。他說因為你們第五條的內容規範的是法務部跟內政部,你們要去督導這個指揮地檢署,就是檢警系統去偵查犯罪嘛。"},{"start":3552.515,"end":3575.428,"text":"那所以這個犯罪資料庫的儲存或者是它的管理或者是說它的資料庫的建立你現在本來是講法務部門和內政部門而且是他們在辦的你現在又把它交回去給衛福部會不會在執行面其實是無法執行的所以你應該執行面還是交給這個"},{"start":3579.714,"end":3605.89,"text":"不是你們的條文是寫主管機關會同。或者是說應該是法務部、數位部和這個內政部會同主管機關訂定。你們也去參加一起討論啊。原則上他們開會的時候我們一定會去。不要講原則上我們叫法律上要規定。你們必須會同主管機關去。主席看可以發言嗎?對。"},{"start":3607.671,"end":3627.374,"text":"因為疫情委員的版本原本是那個警政主管機關嘛,所以剛剛我們想確認一下警政主管機關主責這件事情不會反對吧?應該是可以嗎?可以。可以嗎?他們已經同意了。那現在會同誰?那這個是不是部會要協調?我也蠻支持速發部什麼的都進來,法務這些進來喔。"},{"start":3629.155,"end":3650.481,"text":"現在就是說內容應該辦理什麼事項我覺得剛幾位委員都講得很好不管是說要不要叫做鑑別然後加上就是說查誰查的記錄都要留下來然後詳細的內容那是不是能夠以月經委員的版本他這邊有一二三項來做修正那是他們待會兒去擬一下我們晚一點再回來還是"},{"start":3652.901,"end":3657.384,"text":"我們這一條先保留啦看起來是大家意見也很多齁那我個人的看法是主管機關應該是內政部啦然後會同各單位才是正確齁不過又卡到第三條齁"},{"start":3684.854,"end":3706.469,"text":"第三條還沒有定義主管機關。第三條,所以我們可能回來還要再討論。我們這一條先保留,那我們接續下一條。好,第八條麻煩委員參考新今天早上發的單張的這個第八條的版本。"},{"start":3709.808,"end":3724.495,"text":"我們昨天跟部會幾個重要部會討論那我們第八條的修正原則上朝第一個第一項跟第三項配合第三條把這個網際網路的平台應用"},{"start":3724.997,"end":3728.94,"text":"告知網路業者及警察機關及中央主管機關。告知網路業者及警察機關及中央主管機關。告知網路業者及警察機關及中央主管機關。"},{"start":3749.035,"end":3750.397,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":3765.569,"end":3789.043,"text":"要二、四小時去移除然後去限制瀏覽這些這個內容跟犯罪有關的網頁資料然後在第七項我們做了一個規定也就是中央主管機關他去命業者的這個處分內容他要記載的一些事項做一個清楚的明定以上說明"},{"start":3796.513,"end":3806.065,"text":"各位有沒有意見?這個行政機關的修正更是養蝦子隊喔?寫的比我們寫的還多齁?來陳委員"},{"start":3809.53,"end":3813.613,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":3839.21,"end":3858.558,"text":"以至於美國在之後要求網路業者必須保留客戶的IP address至少要18個月。所以他們在2011年有訂出一個Protecting Children from Internet Pornographers Act。它這個時候是規範電子通訊商至少要保留一年足以辨識用的IP還有用戶資訊等等。所以我只是想要把它稍微延長。"},{"start":3867.383,"end":3894.582,"text":"黃委員先針對第八條第一項就是我們剛剛把所有的網際網路平台提供者或者是網際網路應用服務提供者或網際網路接取服務提供者都統稱為網路業者那我現在就是說因為這個犯罪的這個樣態真的非常的多那賴群組轉傳或者是販售影像那算是哪一種那對於說"},{"start":3895.282,"end":3898.004,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":3916.71,"end":3942.262,"text":"這條我想就是我的版本有幾個地方希望大家可以參考第一個就是規範網際網路平台的提供者他必須要公開揭示有關被害人申訴的管道因為我想這個部分其實對被害人權益很重要另外一個就是有規範必要的時候得請求法務主管機關協助"},{"start":3943.783,"end":3967.631,"text":"透過國際刑事司法互助向外國政府機關或國際組織協助請求。那因為其實我們現在看到很多就是有國際司法需要國際司法互助的時候那這邊也希望能夠就是讓網際網路平台可以來做這個請求不管是請求警察機關等那這個部分我有文字那大家可以參考我的第八條"},{"start":3969.532,"end":3994.932,"text":"另外就是我想這次我們從這個相關的黃子椒相關事件看到就是我們去區隔就是重大犯罪跟一般的就是網頁平台就有就是一兩則違法這個部分是不大一樣那網頁犯罪的情節重大的時候那主管機關就要能夠限制接取這個部分的精神我想就是希望大家都能夠保留支持謝謝"},{"start":4000.13,"end":4018.462,"text":"各位同仁我有一個觀點要請大家一起來討論就是說你知道這個犯罪偵查保留180天那我問你如果業者蓄意然後給他毀損或者不保留要不要刻以刑責滅證罪要不要刻以刑責這算不算滅證因為我們配套後面是只有行政處分"},{"start":4026.189,"end":4044.484,"text":"可是這個東西是犯罪最重要的紀錄在這裡欸所以我們要不要刻意行走我覺得這個事情要不要討論滅政否則每個業者我如果可以發幾萬元可以省事我也不想惹事那我乾脆就給他滅政滅掉啦欸欸陳委員你好"},{"start":4061.062,"end":4064.385,"text":"二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4077.076,"end":4078.136,"text":"網路網際平台提供者、網際網路應用服務提供者及網際網路接取服務提供者"},{"start":4096.423,"end":4096.883,"text":"此外,有關曾經委員提到的180天"},{"start":4115.034,"end":4115.695,"text":" bicyclap"},{"start":4147.718,"end":4168.055,"text":"這個名詞統一修改為網路業者我是支持的。第八條我有幾點的疑問。第一個是我們在第四項就是性影像中心得知有這個犯罪嫌疑情勢的時候應通知網路業者。但是第五項是說他這個通知應記載下列事項。"},{"start":4168.976,"end":4175.262,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4195.866,"end":4206.337,"text":"內移除下架,這個是從第六項的主管機關行政處分後起算。這個會不會有比我們現行法規來得還要慢的問題?這個我希望等會可以來說明。好,那請問還有委員要發言嗎?好,來,范雲委員。"},{"start":4215.174,"end":4236.359,"text":"我覺得剛剛那個委員那個問題問得非常好,就是我覺得你們這個前項通知一記載這個東西,是不是記到太細了就變成字符手腳,就會變成上次我們去年通過的法其實是很好的,但是衛福部自己的行政規範訂得很細,訂到變成不能去,要求人家下架,所以有必要訂到這麼細然後字綁手腳嗎?"},{"start":4238.479,"end":4241.862,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4265.482,"end":4265.502,"text":"議員林岱樺"},{"start":4279.431,"end":4284.799,"text":"委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4296.235,"end":4296.935,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":4313.824,"end":4326.765,"text":"則四個單位的事權不統一的時候就會變成大家都看起來有列上去結果可能都會沒去做所以我們還是希望是不是還是回到只要單一的主管機關就好以上"},{"start":4328.579,"end":4329.4,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":4344.901,"end":4372.734,"text":"我覺得就的確容易掛萬漏一所以你的這個不管是性影響處理中心的通知或者是中央主管機關的通知最後一款都應該要再加上一個就是說其他應通知事項就是說避免掛萬漏一要列一個可以有一個地方條款的進去這個在立法的體力和技術上應該是很容易處理的"},{"start":4373.697,"end":4373.877,"text":"網路業者第3條"},{"start":4390.774,"end":4406.675,"text":"第三條已經有把那個很長很長的那個全部簡稱為網路業者所以第三條有說明然後另外這個180天建議延長為一年我們在舊法也就是112年修法之前是寫90天"},{"start":4408.277,"end":4418.926,"text":"後來我們也聽到業者還有這個特別是檢警他們的需求所以我們就跟業者討論從90天延長到180天那這樣的一個延長檢警目前他們在使用上面是覺得是可以的"},{"start":4427.253,"end":4442.544,"text":"或許待會聽聽看這個檢警是不是有一些新的發現。然後再來申訴管道的部分就是說這些網路平台業者他的申訴管道大的平台比較有規模的平台基本上他們都有。"},{"start":4442.944,"end":4450.707,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少"},{"start":4470.914,"end":4493.086,"text":"那對於提到那個重大犯罪的處理部分的確我們在這個八之一就是下一條我們有做另外的一些規範所以這個部分沒有問題那至於剛才提到那個林委員提到那個滅政要不要克與刑責基本上這些平台業者他就是一個"},{"start":4495.647,"end":4518.824,"text":"我就是給人家寄東西寄賣在這裡他基本上不是一個犯罪者他不會針對他今天被提供的服務的這個客人他放了一個東西然後我怕有刑者因為刑者不在他因為犯罪者不是他他只是一個平台的一個提供讓人家在上面發一些訊息所以基本上"},{"start":4519.304,"end":4545.693,"text":"要不要滅政罪要克與刑責我們待會也要尊重這個司法機關的一個態度立場那另外再講到24小時的部分我們現在已經把從第六項把它移到第一項所以第一時間就24小時那個部分是沒有問題然後另外說沒有通訊這些資料的時候怎麼辦很簡單因為我們在第八條"},{"start":4546.613,"end":4568.558,"text":""},{"start":4568.558,"end":4595.555,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":4600.926,"end":4620.406,"text":"委員好我們跟委員回應一下有關那個國際刑事司法互助的處理這一塊因為我們其實已經有國際刑事司法互助法的法律規定那我們現在如果在刑事偵查中或審判中的案件如果有需要的話我們也都會依照相關的法律來跟國外請求"},{"start":4621.636,"end":4636.751,"text":"但是呢除了這個法律我們也是可以跟雙邊條約協定相關規定跟外國提出但是有一個部分就是大家可能要必須要了解那個跟國外提出請求其實是依照他們的規定他們要先審查"},{"start":4637.312,"end":4639.795,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4656.593,"end":4657.293,"text":"警政署有沒有補充說明?"},{"start":4687.925,"end":4693.973,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案"},{"start":4702.945,"end":4702.965,"text":"議員林岱樺"},{"start":4731.097,"end":4732.857,"text":"陳昭之、陳金輝委員、范允委員"},{"start":4751.284,"end":4765.635,"text":"犯罪行為他不是行為人他不是那個犯罪就是他提供這個兒少性像這個人他提供這個平台啊對他是平台他就是有點像一個電商他就是放在那裡但是人家寄放東西他是沒有審查權"},{"start":4766.476,"end":4782.022,"text":""},{"start":4782.422,"end":4786.904,"text":"目前的確是這樣那以前藝人代言很多東西最後他都有責任的啊是這樣嗎我就就教各位啦所以他基本上這些電商他都會有一個聲明他聲明說我這個平台有一些犯罪的這個物品或者是跟犯罪有關就都不用去做一個確認或檢查都不用"},{"start":4808.575,"end":4825.43,"text":"大平台基本上他們都會有法務人員嘛那這個法務人員因為他就要逐筆逐筆去看他大致上就是做一個瀏覽他也沒有辦法很清確這個是大平台那我想這個內容可能NC會比我們更熟悉我覺得保護師太消極了一點"},{"start":4829.588,"end":4831.829,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":4847.276,"end":4866.101,"text":"對這些案件是有幫助的,所以我也請衛福部可以仔細的思考。那個保存180天這個部分,因為它需要有更大的一個資料,也就是它需要那個容量,那這個部分NCC會跟業者會比較接近,那是不是也請NCC來說明這個部分?"},{"start":4868.301,"end":4883.378,"text":"衛福部也要求我們這邊有這麼多醫護人員衛福部要求我們保存病歷都是五年七年我們都盡量去想地方保存病歷了那個NCC來說一下這個委員好NCC這邊補充報告"},{"start":4884.179,"end":4907.347,"text":"其實針對資料保存這一百八十天其實以前時間是更短那之所以會變成一百八十天去年其實性暴力、世衛性暴力犯罪防制釋法就是為了這件事NCC也找了業者來討論就是說怎麼樣取得平衡因為儲存空間其實它的成本是蠻高的"},{"start":4908.047,"end":4913.249,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4926.374,"end":4927.856,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4942.517,"end":4947.362,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":4968.041,"end":4994.165,"text":"瞭解那個法務部是不是應該說明一下剛剛NCC講的就是說當你們在偵辦的時候你有一些可能涉及到海外曠日廢食那你如果想要業者保全一些資料你們是不是電子資料你們自己就可以copy回去就不需要一直留在業者那邊超過180天因為那個量不會會很大嗎就你們現在偵辦的情況你們有沒有能力"},{"start":4994.445,"end":4996.067,"text":"司法部朱瓦君主任檢察官司法部朱瓦君主任檢察官"},{"start":5016.647,"end":5018.328,"text":"閱讀委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":5038.618,"end":5040.7,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":5058.516,"end":5061.337,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":5081.186,"end":5084.129,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":5102.158,"end":5117.734,"text":"報告召委其實這個我很難說這是不是一定就是足夠因為案件每一個案件的情節不同然後發現的發現需要事證的時間點有時候也不是那麼的一樣所以說這樣子到底是足不足夠"},{"start":5118.755,"end":5143.804,"text":"我覺得我很難說因為像去年還有被檢討就是有業者還提出說像日本他們只保存90天如果要增長還需要向法院提出申請我就變成檢警還要向法院提出申請但是申請當然就是時間又過了這樣所以這個即時性所以我們去年就是一直在跟業者做一個協調啦所以這個180天算是業者目前可以接受的範圍內這樣子"},{"start":5146.786,"end":5172.207,"text":"好來范雲委員然後林淑芬委員然後那個吳佩儀委員先講就是其實我們去年在修法的時候就是希望24小時內那當時衛福部堅持不要要放在行政命令結果就是說沒有聽我們的結果我們現在就拿放下去那針對那個180天剛剛NCC明明就說那個其實資料並沒有佔很大的空間"},{"start":5172.807,"end":5176.992,"text":"二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具、「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5188.686,"end":5192.249,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":5206.8,"end":5207.941,"text":"二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5226.994,"end":5227.014,"text":"議員林岱樺"},{"start":5257.454,"end":5257.895,"text":"林淑芬委員"},{"start":5275.214,"end":5296.43,"text":"各位我覺得我們今天可能有一個困擾就是說網路業者這個業者的概念實在是太範疇太寬太廣了我們想像你說這個Facebook的經營者或那個平台或是Line平台或是購物平台這種大型的網站平台可是還有一種業者是他只是單純架設一個可能是一個AV的網站的經營者"},{"start":5297.631,"end":5299.752,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":5317.877,"end":5320.599,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":5339.775,"end":5354.689,"text":"那我們也知道說比如說跨國集團的業者你說一個YouTube或者是一個什麼樣的一個業者他們的法尊能力大家suppose都會認為說他們第一個有自律機制有自己內部審理的機制"},{"start":5357.351,"end":5365.195,"text":"或者是說這個購物平台上他有沒有販賣這種影片你會覺得大型的財團的他們也應該法尊能力是相對比較強的可是就我們的感覺就是說那小型的AV網站的經營業者他會有什麼法尊的這個執行能力這個落差實在太大了"},{"start":5376.44,"end":5399.182,"text":"所以我們今天在討論了業者的樣態為什麼大家討論起來無法聚焦的原因就是因為光是業者的這個概念就是差異這麼大在這種狀況裡面你把所有的平台的提供者、應用服務者、接取服務者都混在一起所以我想說我們是不是應該要根據業者的屬性的不同要不要類似一個分級的"},{"start":5402.264,"end":5405.525,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":5422.571,"end":5446.65,"text":"那他如果滅症的可能性比較高的話我也認為應該你就是天數我不要求你再增加了180天但是如果你不儲存的話我個人還是堅持的認為說那這樣子的呃呃行事責任我認為也是應該要相對要要有我不要求你保管很多天但你還是不保管而且滅症了那要有行事責任"},{"start":5447.691,"end":5474.674,"text":"那如果是對大型平台而言他們可能都覺得沒問題因為他們自己內部的這個自主管理他們自己的自律他們就平常就在做了所以他不怕嘛但對這種法尊能力很低的小型的網站的經營者而言這個可能對他們就有約束力啊所以這個我們在這裡一直在討論這個就是因為光是業者差異就落差很大啦"},{"start":5475.789,"end":5477.363,"text":"好,謝謝。來,吳佩儀委員。"},{"start":5479.331,"end":5507.01,"text":"我還是需要衛福部把我剛剛提的關於第四項的不是影像中心會不會今天因為你們訂定了這麼多印記載的事項會不會只是因為拿不到這個網路業者和行為人的聯絡電話或是姓名會不會少了一項他就沒有辦法進行通知這一點為什麼那麼的重要因為我們今天修法討論一個很重要的事情就是實務上大多數的被害者這個因為司法的偵辦就是匡慾廢食"},{"start":5508.931,"end":5528.416,"text":"大家最需要的是我已經申訴之後我的影像可不可以趕快下架不要說24小時多一個小時都是一個痛苦那你們現在這個在你的建議修正條文說明裡面為什麼我說這個通知這麼重要你看你的第五項裡面雖然第四項性影像處理中心的通知是叫做觀念通知"},{"start":5529.707,"end":5556.184,"text":"你是雙軌的沒有錯但是你的中央主管機關要能夠去進行處分你的前提是中央主管機關在收受第四項也就是性影像處理中心的通知之後他才能去令網路業者24小時之內下架也就是說如果你前一項我剛講的性影像中心如果因為他少了一個名字少了一個電話他沒辦法去通知那主管機關中央主管機關也沒辦法去進行他後面的處分了"},{"start":5556.684,"end":5572.14,"text":"在中間,也許就是缺了那個電話,可能不是多一個小時,可能要多一個禮拜。這沒有辦法處理我們現在面臨到的問題。那在所有委員提的版本裡面,都沒有人去提這麼細的應記載事項。所以這個衛福部我還是需要你們把這一點說明清楚。"},{"start":5573.285,"end":5600.198,"text":"好 謝謝林岱請委員針對於我覺得有兩關一個是專門店就像創意私房一個真的像剛才市長講的是說可能真的是上次一個店家像迪卡有人來放了一個連結所以如果他本來就是有意要犯罪有意要來做這些事情我也認為應該要保留時間越長我們才可以讓"},{"start":5601.434,"end":5604.675,"text":"閱讀委員黃捷等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":5624.002,"end":5624.362,"text":"議員黃捷等20人擬具"},{"start":5638.12,"end":5664.558,"text":"那放了多久?所以我覺得這個還比較單一點反而是那個重大犯罪像創意私房或觸感空間那個重大最大惡極的這樣的他有意本來就要作證保留360天我們事實上是希望找到更多被害的因為很多時候被害的人是不知道他原來被害那去找到這些來遏止繼續犯罪所以我認為這個如果保留長一點當然會比較好是說可以讓他們去做偵辦以上"},{"start":5666.92,"end":5686.202,"text":"好 謝謝那那個剛剛吳佩儀委員特別提到那個通知你寫的這麼的鉅細靡遺反而會不會造成是一個限制我覺得這個是你們要考慮清楚的因為如果你前面宣示是要及時24小時結果後面又自行設下障礙說漏了一個什麼他提不出來結果"},{"start":5687.223,"end":5689.186,"text":"議員,這次我們把這個因記載事項寫清楚的原因是因為你今天通知業者說你的網站裡面有十萬筆資料"},{"start":5704.785,"end":5721.12,"text":"那其中你那個十萬筆資料裡頭其中有一筆就是我們的兒少的這個性影像那我總是要告訴業者說那這個你的網站名稱以及這一筆資料到底是他的那個IP到底是什麼"},{"start":5722.041,"end":5736.727,"text":"所以我們會因為他有涉及到這個網路平台業者他要把那一張影像要移除所以你不給他寫清楚他無法執行那他無法執行我們在後面四、七條就會有一個罰則甚至他要遭受到封網"},{"start":5740.968,"end":5742.449,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":5761.484,"end":5785.778,"text":"該說目前執行不會有困難那如果他沒有這些通訊這些我們要通知他的這些訊息我們就直接進行封網這個我們在第八條八條之一上面有寫清楚那不會因為說我要把這個訊息寫清楚會導致24小時的延宕不會那但是我要重申的是說"},{"start":5786.638,"end":5790.939,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":5810.683,"end":5810.703,"text":"議員林岱樺"},{"start":5841.056,"end":5863.142,"text":"主席我還是希望行政部門考慮我剛才講的說業者的樣態實在是差異太大了有沒有分級管理的可能性第一個第二個我是我覺得吳佩奕委員講的我也覺得是也可以討論那個討論是因為他講的也有道理但是我要在這裡請教行政部門的就是說如果沒有把這些明定下來我們就直接授權給你們去做的話有沒有這個權利義務關係不明確沒有"},{"start":5868.604,"end":5878.274,"text":"而因為法律的保留原則法律的明確性必須在這個魔法裡面放上去如果沒有的話沒有這個法律保留原則你就要直接去規範他的權利要受損的話這個在法律上"},{"start":5884.42,"end":5897.95,"text":"只是單純授權給你們去制定施行細則或是執法的話這是不行的除非就是說他這個有沒有權利義務關係需要符合法律保留原則和法律的明確性否則的話的確是就怕掛萬肉依就不要了"},{"start":5901.553,"end":5921.657,"text":"那如果有這個法律保留原則的必要性的話那麼我們就當然是在這種必須進行的程序裡面我們明定了以後那怕掛彎漏衣我們再加一個第四款或是其他款要掛一個其他的得住宅、得記載或是應記載事項怕掛彎漏衣的話你要有一個這個例外條款讓我們不會自負手腳啦"},{"start":5931.394,"end":5934.137,"text":"好,那這部分衛福部有回應嗎?來,部長。"},{"start":5939.285,"end":5962.42,"text":"這個第八條首先我想再review一下,因為其實上一次我們有討論過,當然有幾位委員可能在討論的那一個時間點剛好不在,所以我再重新再提醒一下。那第八條的用意它是這樣子,第一個就是說網路業者知道了,就第一項的部分,"},{"start":5963.54,"end":5976.129,"text":"知道有透過內容防護機構、性影像處理中心、主管機關等通知網路業者有兒童的性影像"},{"start":5988.797,"end":6012.184,"text":"讓他有一個機會是可以自律的把它下架下來這是第一項第二項的話這個保留180天是後續可能會有犯罪偵查的必要性所以這些平台業者要求他就是說網路業者要求他要保留180天"},{"start":6014.725,"end":6036.426,"text":"剛剛十分委員在提的就是兩種狀況一個是自己架設的網站其實就在做這種工人瀏覽這個兒童性影像這個是他本身就是行為人所以他不是只有網路業者而已他本身就是行為人他已經變成是要犯罪偵查的對象了"},{"start":6037.63,"end":6055.226,"text":"那這種情形的話,你當然要他保存180天還是什麼,他如果知道說犯罪偵查會到他頭上去,他顯然不會服從這一個。所以那個時候是我們犯罪偵查啟動的時間點,要什麼時候開始啟動的問題。也許檢警認為說稍等一下,"},{"start":6065.174,"end":6085.846,"text":"則說修正還不太夠,所以先不動他,要過個兩三天。也許他認得說他已經修正夠,對,因為他是行為者。這一條在訂的所謂的網路業者,其實要保存的是指的是一般的那些,像Facebook、Google等等這些,是這一類的。所以180天,"},{"start":6088.867,"end":6097.157,"text":"讓他們去保存,大概跟他們做了一個協調,那是他們可以負擔的一個範圍。第三項的部分,在犯罪偵查或者是說審理中"},{"start":6104.645,"end":6128.317,"text":"被害人去要求可以把這個影像再download下來。這個縣市主管機關的話就要來做協助。這是第三項。第四項的時候就是現項處理中心知道了有這些犯罪嫌疑的,他要通知網路業者,其實就是回到第一項,就是這一個通知。"},{"start":6129.177,"end":6139.561,"text":"第二、同時通知警察及中央主管機關必須啟動犯罪偵查或中央採取預防措施。犯罪偵查部分由警政法務單位啟動,但重點是在"},{"start":6153.667,"end":6174.501,"text":"現影像處理中心必須趕快告知中央主管機關。這個通知應該是比較簡單就好。所以我們訂了三個事項,讓現影像處理中心可以來遵循。你要通知就通知這三項就好,就簡單。"},{"start":6176.602,"end":6193.504,"text":"它是一個啟動,它等於是一個啟動。然後再過來的話,就是第六項的部分。第六項,因為如果是犯罪偵查啟動的部分的話,就警政他們會去做處理。但是以中央主辦機關是要做行政的作為。"},{"start":6194.845,"end":6219.138,"text":"行政座委接受影像處理中心後,必須在24小時內令網路業者依照第一項規定。這個時候是第二步驟。第一個步驟是讓他自律,他可以自行下架。但是到了第六項的部分的話,就是已經要進入行政處分了。就是說我們命他下架。"},{"start":6220.038,"end":6244.519,"text":"如果他自己已經自行下架當然要回答就很容易就說我已經自行處理如果他沒有依照第一項自行下架的時候那我們就會用第六項開始做這個處分就是說要求他24小時之內的話再把它確實的下架因為如果沒有的話那就後面會有處罰"},{"start":6248.461,"end":6263.526,"text":"這已經是一個行政處分了這一個部分的話我們也問過行政院的法規會他是認為說這樣子的一個行政處分的內容最好是要明確一點所以他給我們的建議就是這九點這九點"},{"start":6268.117,"end":6283.468,"text":"其實這是必要的記載事項前項處分的內容應記載下列事項應該就必須要記載的東西但是除此之外並不是說不能再做其他的記載"},{"start":6284.967,"end":6290.09,"text":"我想佩儀問的應該是說你應記載的事項裡面會不會有執行的至愛難行或困難之處導致於你無法進行這一些程序也無法記載因為沒有辦法有網址等等或是其他困難等等所以變成無法執行這一條法律他問的是這個問題有沒有可能"},{"start":6308.34,"end":6322.749,"text":"然後在技術上這也要問執行單位就檢警也要來討論你們把自己手腳束縛起來了寫得太明確了導致於無法辦案那要有沒有自愛難行之處有沒有可能會遇到啦你應記載這事項這有沒有可能啦好謝謝來五位委員"},{"start":6328.473,"end":6329.334,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6343.835,"end":6361.824,"text":"有沒有涉及到行政處分?沒有嘛,對不對?照你的說明它是觀念通知。既然是觀念通知,就沒有如同你剛剛講的,你要記載那麼多,不然會有行政處分的問題。所以說我的建議是啦,第四項這一條,你的前項通知應記載下的事項,是不是這個應可以改為得?"},{"start":6363.144,"end":6366.508,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6379.121,"end":6380.463,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":6400.966,"end":6417.618,"text":"委外在做處理的他是一個民間業者接受我們委託去做這些其實他是收集資訊然後再做這種資訊的流動而已那民間業者的話你如果沒有給他寫得很清楚的話"},{"start":6418.539,"end":6441.793,"text":"那就容易會產生一些爭議出來因為他要通知給除了通知這個網路業者之外他還通知給這個行政機關那我們希望就是說讓他有所遵循當然沒有寫在法律上然後我們就做一個內部因為這委外他必須要有合約嘛在合約裡面去訂的話也不是不可以啦"},{"start":6442.233,"end":6470.038,"text":"但是定在這裡的話會比較清楚一點因為他要通知的內容至少應該要這些所以用英字比較好用德的話等於什麼都沒有寫也可以那個部長我可以問一個問題我想這個行政事項本來就是你們在執行現在委員提出來這些疑問只是在問說會不會因為你明文之後導致效率變差或者是說去通知因為寫得太詳細"},{"start":6470.998,"end":6471.398,"text":"議員的三款,麻煩委員看三款。"},{"start":6493.2,"end":6515.752,"text":"第一個講的是這個網站名稱一定有這個網址還有這個性影像的網址一定有這個如果沒有的話他不會來申訴第二個行為人這個網路平台這個平台的帳號或者他的協定位置講的就是那個IP第三個通知國家機關就是我啦"},{"start":6516.232,"end":6516.392,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":6532.017,"end":6539.122,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":6559.835,"end":6563.538,"text":"主席我是不是請其他這個是簡單通知那接下來要行政處分的這個通知也應該了解衛福部或檢審單位執行面因為也是寫得很強烈應進行下列事項要記載下列事項有沒有執行面困難的地方"},{"start":6586.557,"end":6613.989,"text":"因為我這個裏面講的更多,一共有九條。對,那個都是他們自己要去執行的。不是啦,那檢審要回答說他們執行面會不會有比較困難的、無法執行的。好,那林岱請問是同樣的問題嗎?對,我也要問,因為剛剛部長一直解釋的,我覺得聽起來好像寄賣點,像滴卡有一個這樣的網頁,有人放了這樣的一個影片之後,你的第八條要處理的是這樣,如果是創意私房是不在這邊,"},{"start":6615.029,"end":6615.309,"text":"委員黃娟豪"},{"start":6633.124,"end":6634.785,"text":"黃秀芳委員是放在八條之三嗎?我是放在第八條裡面,可是你們現在並沒有八條之三的資料給我們。"},{"start":6657.659,"end":6658.06,"text":"黃娟豪委員"},{"start":6678.035,"end":6694.429,"text":"好,謝謝喔,那個我想請教行政機關,因為我想從頭到尾討論都是講在講說這個通知的這條法律理論上講,像比如說是Dcard或YouTube這種看起來本來就合法的平台,所以當然沒有問題嘛好,但是實務上面,其實台灣有很多論壇"},{"start":6696.598,"end":6722.138,"text":"他到底何不法維修我也不是很清楚啦,就是說什麼伊利論壇、什麼捷克論壇,有的沒有論壇,上面很多人都沒有影片。那像這種論壇他本身有點灰色或他可能直接加在國外。那他如果論壇上面有這樣的影片,那我們要通知這個論壇下架他的時候,他是不是也要明確的記載他的國家機關聯絡人、姓名、電話、電子郵件,你們的通知才會送達,才算嗎?我的意思說如果今天這些論壇,"},{"start":6724.12,"end":6743.74,"text":"這個論壇上面有很多資訊他不一定只有兒少影片而已他有很多什麼違法電影也好或是各種音樂也好圖片也好好那論壇本身本身可能也不是合法可能也不在境內那這樣子如果出現問題的時候會不會因為沒有電話或因為沒有聯絡人姓名那你的通知就不送的"},{"start":6744.521,"end":6765.511,"text":"應該是問題在這裡啦,我覺得這比較麻煩在這個地方吧,會嗎?跟委員說明,那個通知國家電話姓名,那個都是指我們通知的,所以不是對方。對方他有會留一個網址或者是email,我們就直接用email通知他,這個在第八條之一都會有寫。"},{"start":6766.997,"end":6774.696,"text":"寫那個怎麼通知然後通知如果通知沒收到要怎麼處理都會在第八條之一再來處理。"},{"start":6775.643,"end":6799.432,"text":"好,謝謝,那我這樣理解,那再來還有一條就是說第六項你們提到說收受第四項通知後應急令網路業者依第一項規定,後面擺了吧?那個應急令到底這個急是多快?因為你們剛剛部長在說明的時候都說24小時內嘛但是這個24小時我想第一個問題是是你們24小時內令網路業者要去下架"},{"start":6800.592,"end":6807.901,"text":"二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":6821.431,"end":6847.667,"text":"會不會有法律上的問題?沒有,這極臨的極致的是行政機關的處理的時間,就是越快越好,就這樣。但是,這一個業者就收到通知,也就是送達之後24小時,現在你要完成。寫在哪裡?對不起。寫在第一項,第八條第一項。第一項就是宅民就是24小時內限制瀏覽移除。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。那那個,誰?"},{"start":6850.089,"end":6859.962,"text":"主席我一直在說檢審有我現在就是要請他們講我現在一直說因為我比較不知道所以我說你有IP就一定可以通知的到嗎"},{"start":6862.542,"end":6890.432,"text":"因為我比較關心的是後面主管機關的這個建行的程序還有那個應記載的事項然後有辦法百分之一百執行嗎?因為是應嘛那剛剛講的說比如說一個你說寸毅司法當然他是犯罪行為的人可是剛才那個委員講的說一個論壇裡面他可能放了影片很多或是一部影片裡面他可能是成人的拍攝的可是裡面可能有不小心拍到"},{"start":6891.292,"end":6891.793,"text":"而在此狀況之中,"},{"start":6898.141,"end":6919.508,"text":"沒關係,我們就請行政主管機關回答,因為這是規範行政主管機關該做的事項,如果不行,他們應該自己要提出來。因為這個有行政處分在裡面,所以法律當然要很明確,要有保留原則的精神。因為如果這樣明文記載,就是行政機關要使命必達,對不對?對,一定要使命必達。如果不行,是他們要提出來,所以就是衛福部有沒有問題?衛福部不是執行偵查的這個機關啊。"},{"start":6922.529,"end":6940.454,"text":"沒有,跟委員報告,第八條並沒有講檢警那一塊,刑事案件那一塊,不在第八條。第八條都是行政處分,都是行政機關的作為。那有帳號、有IP就一定通知得到嗎?抱歉,這件我比較不知道的。"},{"start":6940.694,"end":6941.454,"text":"有網址就一定通知得到嗎?"},{"start":6961.305,"end":6980.374,"text":"它會有一個註冊,像國外的網站、國外的論壇,它會有一個域名。我們是目前是在這個,在這個Whois的一個系統。我想這個部分我們請NCC或者司法部來補充。NCC補充一下,來。就是執行上必須100%全部都可執行這樣子。"},{"start":6985.682,"end":7009.526,"text":"報告委員,據我所知,域名的登記他是要登記,就是去申請那個網域,他是要去登記,那每個國家是不太一樣,像在台灣的話就是TWNIC,就是蘇衛部所管轄的那個TWNIC,在那邊做域名登記,那登記上面他自然就會留所有的資料,登記者跟那個所有的IP,那這個是先跟委員會報告。"},{"start":7010.815,"end":7029.587,"text":"所以這個在執行上面都是沒有問題的。我跟各位委員報告,第八條事實上是在規範行政部門,它在執行面。所以原則上我知道委員大家都是好意,有各式各樣不同的角度提出來。那這個條文,其實委員大家的善意都是要確保主管機關可以執行。"},{"start":7030.968,"end":7038.231,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第四十一條條文修正草案。案。"},{"start":7053.038,"end":7070.731,"text":"沒有沒有我我我我先就是衛福部那邊齁你們今天早上才給我們這個第八條建議修正版跟八條之一喔我們等於是現場在做工作齁然後搞不清楚我們關心的第八條其實放在第八條之一裡面啊剛剛一開始報告的時候又沒有把它講得很清楚所以就變成討論起來有點混亂然後花了大家很多的時間"},{"start":7074.453,"end":7074.713,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":7093.863,"end":7096.465,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7112.216,"end":7112.436,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7129.724,"end":7129.844,"text":"委員黃捷等"},{"start":7159.784,"end":7164.246,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":7185.276,"end":7185.837,"text":"主席"},{"start":7201.095,"end":7219.469,"text":"我還是有個意見我還是希望能夠把那個就是公開的申訴管道加入為什麼要這樣講因為剛剛雖然衛福部司長說大型的都已經有這個公開申訴管道了可是如果你小型你要求他一定要有這個部分的話那很多受害人根本不需要那個部分應該不是在第八條"},{"start":7220.47,"end":7249.162,"text":"不在第八條,你們有規範在別的地方嗎?我們對平台業者的申訴管道,我們並沒有要求他一定要。但我想要跟委員溝通是說,我們現在為什麼要成立一個單一窗口,讓網路業者也比較清楚說一旦性影像處理中心通知的就是兒童的性影像。那如果你把你的通知的窗口分得很散,反而會影響他影像移除的時間。"},{"start":7250.322,"end":7251.582,"text":"閱讀者們的意見是否應該因為沒有相關版本"},{"start":7269.269,"end":7271.411,"text":"網際網路平台提供者、網際網路應用服務提供者及電信事業應設置相關被害人申訴管道逗號並公開揭示職。"},{"start":7292.806,"end":7312.857,"text":"那因為我們有婦女團體接觸到成型人的時候發現其實你這樣子有些就自行處理了他就不用到信箱中心了嘛 對不對就有一些比較小的那個平台啊那你現在大型平台有這個管道但是你有一些小的就是說應該要讓他們知道要公開揭示申訴管道"},{"start":7313.397,"end":7337.264,"text":"這個就是非官方的他自己的一個負責自律的行為。好,那我們建議保留,因為這個部分我們也沒有辦法跟這麼大、這個世界各國的這些網站或者是這些業者做溝通。因為之前都沒有提到這個部分。那我們的確知道目前我們在台灣落地的這些大型的業者都有。"},{"start":7337.984,"end":7353.06,"text":"因為他要申訴他不是只有針對性影響他一定是他自己的服務項目都要給他的服務對象或者是他的業他的這個怎麼講就是使用者有一個好的一個申訴所以我想如果我們今天載明在這裡"},{"start":7354.201,"end":7380.25,"text":"但是對於他沒有這樣的申訴管道目前我們是沒有處罰啦那我們要處罰是因為性影像所以如果他沒有這些通知的管道我們更好處理就是直接做限制擷取我還是要再聲明那是從你的角度從受害人角度他如果低時經典我們現在講的被害人都是性影像那他就有申訴管道甚至不用到你那裡去了嗎"},{"start":7381.03,"end":7381.29,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7406.852,"end":7406.912,"text":"議員主席響鐘"},{"start":7427.977,"end":7434.699,"text":"二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":7462.556,"end":7476.026,"text":"一、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":7489.907,"end":7518.524,"text":"二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條條文修正草案。案"},{"start":7523.787,"end":7530.875,"text":"二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。"},{"start":7913.882,"end":7916.564,"text":"好,來我們繼續開會請大家就座。好,那接下來我們進到八字一條的討論。八字一條這個我這邊有提案,那主要就是希望可以達到及時下架跟封網的目的。八字一其實就是要賦予主管機關"},{"start":7942.421,"end":7960.135,"text":"可以停止解析跟犯罪有關的網域名稱。那這個部分呢,這個主管機關也有提了一個內容更多的這個修正的建議修正的版本。為了避免大家那個待會討論會有點失焦,所以我們就先請這個主管機關把這一條你的立法的目的重點,"},{"start":7965.866,"end":7985.67,"text":"稍後再說一下,我們再進行討論,好不好?來,請。好,謝謝趙薇。謝謝委員。那我們在第八條之一呢,延續第八條的一個立法例。接下來就是我們考量到這個網路的一個特性。對於網路業者所做的行政處分,"},{"start":7986.31,"end":8012.883,"text":"如果以傳統的書面方式在利用郵件送達的時間它會非常冗長而且緩不濟急因此我們明定本條例有關的行政處分可以用電子文件的方式利用網路傳輸傳送到網路業者他有公開揭示或者他指定的電子郵件"},{"start":8013.703,"end":8030.727,"text":"而同時在法條裡頭直接把它說它這個就是視為送達這是第一個第二個部分我們在第二項新增電子郵件送達的效力規定以及電子送達可能會發生的一些狀況以及如何處理的方式這個內容也嶄明在第三、第四、第五項"},{"start":8039.409,"end":8042.49,"text":"最後,我們橫著實務許多網站都設在境外,這些境外業者未必會公開揭示聯絡資訊,也有可能導致無法做行政送達,或者網頁資料設有犯罪嫌疑情節重大,"},{"start":8061.118,"end":8078.724,"text":"又或者這個網路業者被限制接取了就像這一次這個創意司法他被限制接取了他又更換了一個網域或IP那另外又重新被接取就另外又開張那這些呢都可以主管機關都可以"},{"start":8084.307,"end":8099.939,"text":"則為限制接取,也就是我們在法律裡頭直接明定。那同時呢,我們要在第七項去也在說明,那我們在做這一項限制接取的時候,相關部會要協力來執行該項工作。以上說明。好,謝謝衛福部的說明。那就交各委員有沒有意見。好,來陳昭志委員、林月琴委員。"},{"start":8112.336,"end":8116.56,"text":"關於下列形象之一,主管將得為限制接取。關於下列形象之一,主管將得為限制接取。"},{"start":8132.631,"end":8145.002,"text":"可否合併我的四十七條再提出來的也有一點就是一樣的就是說跟前端這個有所謂的得為限制擷取的一些樣態"},{"start":8147.044,"end":8172.746,"text":"只是我這邊比較有特別去提出來因為還有一種方法不是只有限制擷取或採取適當的流量管制措施這也是一種手法我覺得也可以併入還有另外一個我在這邊有特別提到是說因為有一次部長這邊有提到說基本上行政如果採取之後沒有得到法律授權的話會有疑慮所以我這邊有寫說併於三日內向法院申請緊急"},{"start":8173.807,"end":8174.167,"text":"議員,其他委員有意見嗎?"},{"start":8198.231,"end":8198.511,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8210.973,"end":8239.451,"text":"有。來表述下一卷。是。剛才林委員提到的那個採取適當的流量管制那另外就是也好幾次提到說布朗講的是法律風險基本上是布朗講的法律風險是指現行法條還沒過之前我們在施行細則裡頭跟這個地方的主管機關有做劃分所有的行政處分或者是限制接取的行政處分照理說是地方的主管機關"},{"start":8240.111,"end":8241.332,"text":"議員提到的要跟法院申請限制令,我們待會也聽聽看司法院的立場。"},{"start":8263.955,"end":8291.725,"text":"總之如果是走昨天前天那個林淑芬委員有特別提到是不是雙軌基本上他就雙軌而這第八條之一完全是行政處分不是指司法這一塊那委員又把司法那一塊的這個限制限制令那可能我們待會聽聽看司法院的意見那剛才委員有提到說那個德維限制接取那只要是情況危急因為我們有三款寫的那個三款"},{"start":8292.105,"end":8310.018,"text":"只要符合其中一款,它立即就是可以做限制接取。那之後它的行政救濟我們也會在這個限制接取的這個行政處分裡頭去載明。欸那些我剛剛提還有一種手法就是採取適當的流量管理措施這可行嗎?我們要請教專家請速發布在技術上給予說明。"},{"start":8318.1,"end":8347.319,"text":"好來那個行政機關先先說明一下這個部分先說明待會請黃建豪委員是呃包主席那稅務部針對流量管制的這個部分的看法是認為說這個部分違法的一個內容基本上就已經是不應該讓民眾看得到但是流量管制是讓民眾看得到但是會比較慢所以這樣子似乎的一個效果而且就是說實務上也沒有這樣的執法經驗齁這個是我們的考量以上"},{"start":8347.899,"end":8350.762,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8355.599,"end":8382.071,"text":"呃謝謝呃這個林委員齁對於那個就是四十七條現在希望可以提到第八條之一來去做一個這三日內的這個法院申請緊急資訊限制令齁那先前我們有向林委員說明就是目前在我們的相關的立法體力上那呃有這個三日接受或者是向呃外國人收容他是十五日齁接受法院的司法審查那通常都是屬於憲法第八條的法院審問"},{"start":8383.007,"end":8409.767,"text":"涉及人身自由的部分比如說兒少福權法我想那個交委也知道就是緊急收容或者兒少性剝削超過72小時必須要接受法院的司法審查那就是保護案這事件但是這一類的緊急限制令我們還是認為說由於現在這個網路的時代那其實必須是快速的攔截包括封網跟下架那行政機關就會像我剛剛跟部長有交換一點必須要像防疫這樣"},{"start":8410.627,"end":8413.929,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":8426.914,"end":8451.819,"text":"那這時候呢趕快讓他下來之後他本來行政處分後續就有相關的行政救濟的程序所以司法也是在後盾所以對於相關的權利人比如說前面的崩亡其實過度了那後面怎麼樣去做一個橫頻的處理我覺得司法其實基本上是一個去處理這樣的一個平衡性涉及這些關係人的權利利益那所以我們會建議說這個林委員的這個想法是好的"},{"start":8452.239,"end":8479.161,"text":"不過這個部分的限制令可能要看事務的性質去做一個決定。那以上補充,謝謝。好,了解。來,黃建豪委員。剛剛那個趙志偉提到這個德維限制接取,那剛剛請問回應說是這三種特殊的情況下面德維限制接取。那既然是這三種情況就表示說你們可能這個聯繫不到,那這個情形是持續在發生。那為什麼是德維對這個自有意見呢?應該是因為吧?"},{"start":8479.861,"end":8481.743,"text":"吳佩儀委員、林岳勤委員、林淑芬委員"},{"start":8502.516,"end":8524.356,"text":"這個唯有處理一條附帶決議其實就是第八條之一的這個精神因為當時不知道衛福部的態度那我唯一想要確認就是因為我們現在處理的是可以即時處置那我們裡面的文字是說主管機關任有犯罪嫌疑情節重大我想要確認的是主管機關是否就指衛福部那這個情節重大我們"},{"start":8525.057,"end":8533.392,"text":"有沒有一個評判的標準?因為我比較擔心的是我們法律授權但之後在執行上面還是會有無法清楚定義的問題。"},{"start":8535.236,"end":8563.453,"text":"好來林委員我這邊也要提醒的是說如果假設今天滴卡有一個影片是這樣的話那你有沒有辦法是馬上封網它全部的整個全部影響到不是像創意私房那樣子所以我們才會說提出來另外一種就是說你讓它所謂的適當流量管制措施因為你不可能把整個滴卡全部因為它只有一個影片而已不像創意私房當然我們同意全部直接封網"},{"start":8564.113,"end":8566.315,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":8581.63,"end":8596.702,"text":"整個網站上本來他就是要做犯罪的那只是單一有人放了這個所以我們才說採行這個措施因為你這邊也有講到該網頁資料所涉犯罪嫌疑情節重大可是你不可能封整個網以上"},{"start":8598.271,"end":8624.693,"text":"好,林淑芬委員好,我現在要討論的就是說這個第二項跟第四項這個有沒有進行程序上的先後問題因為顯然這個最後一項這個三款的不是就是倒數第二項這三款的條件可以的特別程序就是"},{"start":8626.474,"end":8632.816,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":8654.023,"end":8654.283,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":8684.624,"end":8685.725,"text":"對於剛剛林委員所提到的這個問題,就是我們這一次碰到的問題"},{"start":8698.25,"end":8714.885,"text":"我們這一次的碰到問題就前面會有一個程序做完之後沒有辦法去處理了才後來又跳過那個程序跳過縣市然後我們就做直接的封網這一次就是要解決這個問題所以我們把這一個"},{"start":8718.028,"end":8718.609,"text":"當然這三款的情形是不是非常的適當?"},{"start":8735.66,"end":8749.558,"text":"得職階限制接取,要不要先進行前面的程序?不用!因為如果要符合這三款的情形之下的話,內容各位也可以..."},{"start":8750.499,"end":8777.662,"text":"這個三款也不能隨隨便便啟動當然一啟動就是情節重大但是就是說那你總是要一個理由這個理由就是說他是緊急狀況對當事人權利侵害嚴重的狀況那當然這個明確性要怎麼討論在第二款裡面情節重大對當事人的這個傷害這個這個要不要也是必須具體的在法律裡面要寫上去啦我是建議因為"},{"start":8779.664,"end":8795.081,"text":"這個條文當時大家會希望授予衛福部有這個封網的權利就是它過去的模式就是太按部就班然後太緩慢程序太繁複所以這次修法才要賦予它"},{"start":8795.601,"end":8797.862,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":8821.892,"end":8844.768,"text":"所以如果他在網站上面有出現兒少這些影像的話那不用講就是情節重大就應該要立即採取下架的措施或者是封網的手段所以我覺得我們應該把前面的那個但是主席你這樣講的話就是說那也不需要情節重大反正就是有兒少影片全部都是情節重大如果是性剝削影片當然是啊"},{"start":8845.448,"end":8872.776,"text":"當然要立刻採取手段,我們之前不是有這樣的公式嗎?我是同意你的講法,但是就是說我們這裡你還特別強調裡面叫做情節重大,那顯然因為會這樣就要再界定一個情節重大了,那我們是不是只要認為有這個兒少影片的,未必…性剝削影片。如果兒少性剝削影片,那未必免犯罪要危害當事人的擴大,需緊急處理,那這樣的話每一個都可以這樣子限制接取了。"},{"start":8874.096,"end":8890.953,"text":"本來就是,我們就是希望,有兒童性剝削影片就是重大,我們的立法精神就是這樣子。我的意思是說,那也不用前面了啊,那我們只要有就直接這樣子。那得限制,這個就得了,因為你可以自行判斷要或是不要嘛。那如果是這樣子的話,我們為什麼還要前面的第二項呢?"},{"start":8900.614,"end":8922.303,"text":"就是說我們尋一般程序我們根本不需要了我們只要是有兒少性剝削的影像應該直接就是你看是要通知或者是直接要限制接取隨便我們不是隨便抱歉我想說應該是交給主管機關自行判定然後自行決定了那這樣子前項的那些程序也不需要了"},{"start":8923.303,"end":8944.379,"text":"他現在就是要增加電子嗎?電子送達就是最快?不是,只要有兒少性剝削影像,都是情節重大,都是緊急,而且都是重大的侵害,而且都是影響很大的。那是不是在這種狀況裡面,我們為什麼還要再去進行普通程序,"},{"start":8946.761,"end":8951.105,"text":"目前我們在處理的案件其實是兩種類型第一種類型是比如說你在LINE裡面去傳了一個兒少性剝削相關的這些性影像"},{"start":8970.545,"end":8989.859,"text":"有人把他傳上去,在群組裡面去跑來跑去,這是要不讓他下架的。所以這一類的,就是要依照前面的一二三四,我們要通知他下架。但是我們不是把整個的Line把它封掉,因為這事實上也做不到。"},{"start":8990.72,"end":9018.253,"text":"但是後面的這個剛剛提到的這個限日接取的部分就是針對的是網站式的他有一個網站那裡面就有這些兒少、兒少性剝削的這些現象的資料那委員剛剛提到的說如果所有牽涉到兒少都是情節重大那這樣子我們就把情節重大拿掉就變成任網頁資料所涉犯罪嫌疑為"},{"start":9019.514,"end":9020.616,"text":"謝謝部長的說明,來范雲委員。"},{"start":9037.109,"end":9060.558,"text":"這個我要講一下喔因為就是這個文字版本其實應該是來自我的因為我是最早在我們立法院提出這個情節重大然後為阻止犯罪危害之發生與避免擊破危險有及時處置必要主管機關得及時強制限制接取因為就是發現我們去年修的法那本來是叫它你們行政規範裡面寫24小時嘛限制瀏覽移除後來發現"},{"start":9064.159,"end":9093.109,"text":"你們因為說沒有給主管機關這個權限就無法處理嗎所以我最早的版本提出來的時候把這個放進去那我看你們的文字是拿我這個部分來修正但是保留了那個犯罪情節重大然後及時處置然後主管機關得及時強制限制擷取那我的想法是說如果犯罪情節重大本來我還有加個文字或曾遭限制擷取者因為創意私房就是"},{"start":9094.669,"end":9121.635,"text":"那這個部分到底要不要留情節重大因為情節上是給主管機關一個判斷的空間或者是像剛剛林樹峰委員我們只要意思留下為阻止這個什麼什麼什麼就是及時為避免犯罪違壞擴大或避免急迫危險其實他的意思是一樣的那我本來的文字就是德那德就是給你們一個空間那如果你要改成因的話"},{"start":9122.395,"end":9142.684,"text":"其實我覺得他的意思也都是一樣的那最重要就是說這個文字已經在這那執行上對你們到底有什麼影響我想是你們那個行政機關可以告訴我們的好不好就有放情節重大跟沒放情節重大德跟英的差別到底是什麼是不是行政部門跟我們解釋清楚我們才能做個判斷"},{"start":9143.766,"end":9162.035,"text":"好,還有沒有委員真的這一條要表示意見的?好,來。我是支持把情節重大拿掉,因為我剛剛提出來就是擔心說到時候這法定下去,會不會那個衛福部不敢認說這一案是不是情節重大,那就沒有辦法去處理到我們原先希望的可以及時處置限制接取的狀況。"},{"start":9163.561,"end":9164.042,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9182.744,"end":9207.706,"text":"主管機關有一個審酌權這是第一個那如果第二款如果是情節重大不確定的名稱、文字是不是可以建議改成犯罪嫌疑重大犯罪嫌疑重大因為這個三款有層次第一款呢就是講他根本這個業者根本不讓你聯絡就我的資料根本沒辦法告訴你你要停止"},{"start":9208.166,"end":9225.282,"text":""},{"start":9225.522,"end":9235.788,"text":"第二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。第二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。第二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。第二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。第二、委員"},{"start":9255.916,"end":9259.157,"text":"為了避免危害擴大,避免急迫危險,那為什麼要避免犯罪?"},{"start":9288.37,"end":9315.424,"text":"什麼叫避免犯罪?那什麼叫避免犯罪?這四個字應該為什麼要放這個字眼?就是說這個網頁的資料裡面的內容已經有這個兒少性剝削影像那為避免危害擴大或避免這個急迫危險有立即即時處置之必要"},{"start":9317.313,"end":9342.262,"text":"委員這裡面因為有一個頓號其實它是犯罪的擴大跟危害的擴大危害擴大比方說這一個兒少的性影像在那邊如果再傳出去的話就違法擴大犯罪擴大因為我們現在去看的人、付費看的人也是一個犯罪這就越來越多的犯罪的人進來"},{"start":9350.667,"end":9358.76,"text":"懸疑重大就是說可以來實務上面去判斷說成立犯罪的可能性是高的"},{"start":9360.76,"end":9365.702,"text":"這就是所謂的犯罪嫌疑擴大,不是犯罪情節重大。"},{"start":9377.327,"end":9400.595,"text":"好 來 范瑩委員在黃州防衛 在廖瑋祥委員我說明一下我當時的版本為什麼會說犯罪情節重大講的就是這種交易購買的因為有一些不是交易購買的網站就是等於是一整個網站就是付費購買這種根據說有人未經同意或者兒少及青少年沒有同意權對不對放上去的單格的是不大一樣的"},{"start":9401.295,"end":9401.896,"text":"黃秀芳、廖瑋祥委員"},{"start":9417.893,"end":9418.554,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9439.191,"end":9458.684,"text":"同時都會要交給檢警單位,所以最後他們也是會做確認。以主管機關來講的話,主要的是說要及時去把它截止掉。所以第一時間是由你們去認定它是犯罪?對。好來,廖偉強委員。"},{"start":9463.331,"end":9489.27,"text":"其實這個剛剛講我們完全都有共同的一個共識就是說針對這種真實有受害者然後這些購買的嫌疑這個嫌疑重大可是我想問問衛福部你們這樣子寫就是你們的概念我也想要問一些我們在過去聽到民間的聲音啦比如說當初大家也很擔心說這樣子的無限擴權這個ACG產業你們是不是擔心說你就是設定這個東西就是希望有一個區隔對不對"},{"start":9490.851,"end":9518.903,"text":"對嘛。但是我也很認同。那我的意思是說既然是這樣有沒有需要再把它更具體的把它描述出來?因為其實現在也有很多所謂ACG產業的創作者。對。是。是。謝謝委員提醒。那我們在這個ACG產業的部分我們先前已經有跟業者討論。我們在第二條的說明欄裡頭已經把它排除。做區隔。這全部都是真實的兒少性影像。"},{"start":9520.662,"end":9522.326,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9529.787,"end":9531.909,"text":"可是這第三條要建立的又是變成什麼主管機關、教育主管機關?"},{"start":9554.278,"end":9555.759,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9567.847,"end":9573.511,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9589.632,"end":9615.499,"text":"請問各位還有沒有意見?如果沒有意見的話我想這個主要是這次修法的重點我們也希望這個賦予主管機關更大的權限可以及時去做這個封網避免整個受害者他這個危害的程度再加大那所以原則上應該大家都是同意這樣的一個條文的通過那最後只有在這個剛提到的"},{"start":9616.948,"end":9636.154,"text":"認定犯罪嫌疑重大,衛福部是把情節兩個字刪除,就是所涉犯罪嫌疑重大,為避免犯罪危害擴大或避免擊破危險而有及時處置之必要時。那這個文字,不曉得法務部最後還有沒有什麼意見?如果沒有意見,我們就要這樣通過了。來,請法務部表示意見。針對剛剛衛福部提出來的,把這個情節兩個字刪除。"},{"start":9645.029,"end":9647.051,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":9666.749,"end":9695.367,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":9695.587,"end":9712.383,"text":"但是如果我放的是情節重大那就會看整個網站一百萬個會員裡面它的比例是不是已經像創意司法為什麼我們大家都很支持就是說整個這些封網的原因就在於說它的網站可能七八成以上全部都是非法的"},{"start":9713.164,"end":9737.39,"text":"所以這樣的話就變成是所謂的情節重大所以嫌疑重大跟情節重大其實它還是有區隔的意味在所以就假設我們是屬於合法網站的業者像我剛才講的臉書、YouTube這一種的話那可能在主管機關它就可以去思考說其實這些業者的配合度都很高那我們就是走前面的程序我通知他,他就會立刻下架"},{"start":9738.01,"end":9752.611,"text":"好,如果他沒有下架了,我們就走裁罰跟再走後面,就是有一個階段性。但是如果說是像這次創意私房的非法網站,因為通知可能根本沒辦法通知,那我們就直接走。"},{"start":9753.112,"end":9753.512,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":9784.43,"end":9798.622,"text":"謝謝法務部的說明我想這就回到當時我為什麼要放情節重大因為像這次創意書就所有的都是犯罪嫌疑但是這個是情節重大的犯罪嫌疑就是而且已經不是嫌疑看起來就是犯罪"},{"start":9799.242,"end":9799.683,"text":"陳昭芝委員"},{"start":9815.58,"end":9815.68,"text":"主席"},{"start":9845.88,"end":9870.829,"text":"第二個部分,就是一、三都是要適用,謝謝。有啊,三個都適用啊。那個即時,因為剛剛我本來要問說你要多久內來,因為前面都通知不到嘛,行政的部分都通知不到、找不到,你要等多久才做這三個動作。那這以三個條件去做這個封網。那我們這個封網就是要即時,可是現在即時這個字眼只出現在一、二、三的二。"},{"start":9876.198,"end":9878.319,"text":"第八條的母法就24小時"},{"start":9888.667,"end":9907.019,"text":"我本來是剛開始是想不通但是就是說因為這個不是一個刑法上的犯罪嫌疑情節重大不是刑法上的問題這個是一個行政處分而這個行政處分它的指涉是內容它的指涉是內容本身所以"},{"start":9908.721,"end":9924.356,"text":"這個內容本身為什麼不需要特別強調因為我們要界定就是只要是有兒少性剝削影像他當然就是全部都是情節重大所以我們才講說不需要再去講到情節重大因為所謂的情節重大就涉及到認定的問題那我們就不要有認定這個問題直接就是只要這個"},{"start":9934.346,"end":9953.025,"text":"而少性剝削的影像,那麼它就是理所當然的犯罪嫌疑重大了。我開始一直走到這裡是因為這樣子啦。好,那我們就請那個衛福部是不是可以補充說,怎麼樣對你們在執行上面,不會有模糊的空間執行上市?"},{"start":9953.965,"end":9979.822,"text":"這一條我們在設計上除了第六項之外我們還有一個第七項第七項也就是把相關的部會包括技術上可能是數位發展部那還有是剛才講那個情節到底情節要不要放進去還是嫌疑重大就可以我們這邊放了法務部跟這個內政部警政署基本上我們要做這樣的一個行政動作的處分前"},{"start":9982.504,"end":9984.646,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":10007.862,"end":10015.997,"text":"有去說明的有相關的文字也請委員參考那所以你們現在意見情節重大"},{"start":10021.139,"end":10043.153,"text":"其實重點是在得,不是因。得的話我們就有判斷的空間。判斷的空間我們可以判斷到底是涉嫌重大還是情節重大。我們可以有這種彈性。這不確定法律概念的話,大概要寫到很精確大概有困難。"},{"start":10043.724,"end":10058.937,"text":"對啦,某部分還是得要授權給主管機關他們有裁量的空間。我想不可能修法是具細密,那個母法寫不完。好,那如果是這樣子的話,所以衛福部你們最後意見,情節要維持原條文還是要變成重大?情節重大。好。"},{"start":10067.351,"end":10087.177,"text":"好 那既然剛剛法務部也有這樣的一個意見那我想我們修法的目的是要讓它可以落實我們也必須某種程度讓主管機關它有一個彈性空間也不能寫死了所以如果是這樣的話那我們是不是第八條之一我們就按照衛福部建議修正版本的文字通過"},{"start":10088.083,"end":10115.478,"text":"好不好,大家有沒有意見?沒有意見那我們就通過。好,謝謝。來我們接下來進行第...主席,針對這一條是不是可以唸,就是稍微唸一下好不好?它就原來修正版本,不用再唸了。哪一個?沒有改哪一個?對對對,那個...下面主管機關,對對對,剛剛議事院員提醒的齁。大家看一下那個秀出來的齁。就是原來的那個版本呢,最後這邊有調整。"},{"start":10120.543,"end":10139.557,"text":"都改成主管機關。是不是請議事人員宣讀一下。警政主管機關跟前面不一致。"},{"start":10145.131,"end":10174.524,"text":"為什麼一定要跟這樣做?也是很怪。那個涉及到前面第三條嗎?為什麼一定要跟這樣做?好,那那個待會第三條的時候還要再回去。剛剛醫事院也是有提醒說,都是內政以下的機關,就是有分戶政、警政跟移民。那那個就是待會再回去討論。但是在這邊,比較關鍵的是警政主管機關,其他的機關是沒有。"},{"start":10174.966,"end":10202.059,"text":"所以大家再看一下這一段有稍微調整的文字。原來的建議修正版本然後再修正的就是把這個數位發展主管機關、教育主管機關、通訊傳播主管機關、法務主管機關、警政主管機關、網際網路接取服務提供者因依法協助執行。那那個第六項的部分是不是也有做修正啊?沒有。"},{"start":10203.516,"end":10209.321,"text":"委員黃捷等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":10226.244,"end":10230.765,"text":"網路業者經限制接取後更換網域名稱或其他方法已有第四章犯罪嫌疑情勢。"},{"start":10252.456,"end":10252.956,"text":"接下來我們進行是"},{"start":10281.906,"end":10311.187,"text":"第十五條請委員翻到第十五頁大本的第十五頁第十五條委員在第二項建議第二款建議並提供心理諮詢與輔導課程至少十八小時那很感謝委員提醒但是在實務上這個第十五條的第二項指的是我們的性這個性剝削的被害人社工在座"},{"start":10311.687,"end":10316.991,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":10333.482,"end":10336.803,"text":"而這個服務內容就會涉及到我們現在委員要增加的心理諮詢輔導的這個內容,所以不需要特別去宰明,實務執行上更具有彈性。這以上說明。"},{"start":10355.408,"end":10355.649,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":10371.331,"end":10400.36,"text":"第二十八條我們建議委員參考新發的這個單章第二十八條的建議修正條文那在第一項的第第三十九條的第二項跟第四項之罪者增加第二項跟第四項修正之前原條文是第一項跟第三項因為我們在第三十九條會有做建議修正條文因此配合第三十九條的修正"},{"start":10400.86,"end":10425.613,"text":"我們這個著修援引的條次向次謝謝好那針對第28條請問各位有沒有意見針對衛福部新提出的建議修正條文沒有意見沒有意見那我們就按衛福部建議修正條文版本通過接下來"},{"start":10428.13,"end":10443.946,"text":"第三十條,麻煩委員看到大本的第十六頁,六委員有提一個修正版本,也就是在第三十條,我們這些兒少性性剝削的被害人進到保護安置之後,"},{"start":10445.347,"end":10451.472,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10460.66,"end":10464.643,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":10482.415,"end":10511.442,"text":""},{"start":10512.942,"end":10513.122,"text":"梁國雄議員"},{"start":10534.727,"end":10563.503,"text":"我是比如說重要關係的喪失或被摧毀讓兒少真的難以真正的敞開心胸所以你後綴的服務和幫助就蠻重要那我是覺得一年顯然是太少因為你這個當然你有另外一個條件說獲滿20歲可是這兩個條件的關係是你有可能到時候說主管機關可能會因為人力、經費等等的考量就大部分就可能判為一年的一個基本的後綴可是你光這一年一個新的社工要跟被害人產生一個就是信任關係"},{"start":10564.563,"end":10564.583,"text":"議員林岱樺"},{"start":10587.952,"end":10595.197,"text":"謝謝主席。我想廖委員所提到把一年變成三年我是同意。"},{"start":10607.325,"end":10629.952,"text":"我認為這樣的話對於整體的可以更完整不過廖委員所提到有關於地方主管機關要做相關的這些補助要由中央主管機關做補助的部分因為目前過去的地方政府如果沒有這方面的協助的發生或需要的時候那這邊是不是就不予以更動以上"},{"start":10632.501,"end":10632.662,"text":"主席"},{"start":10643.868,"end":10668.804,"text":"好 謝謝那這部分我們是不是先保留因為主管機關跟委員的意見不一致你們在看是不是委員基本上是希望可以多一點時間你們實務上看要怎麼處理是想要協助這一些耳哨利益是良善的那我們第30條我們先保留好 來接下來第"},{"start":10673.344,"end":10687.86,"text":"第三十一條,這個部分有委員建議修正它的刑責跟罰金,涉及司法機關,我們是不是聽聽法務部跟司法院的意見。好來,我們先請司法院表示意見。三十一條。"},{"start":10698.762,"end":10710.37,"text":"市法院刑事廳報告這一條第一項跟第二項其實它情節有輕重之分第一項它悲憾年紀會比較小未滿16歲第二項是"},{"start":10713.933,"end":10718.455,"text":"議員林岱樺等十六歲以上未滿十八歲。議員林岱樺等十六歲以上未滿十八歲。議員林岱樺等十六歲以上未滿十八歲。"},{"start":10737.265,"end":10765.552,"text":"那我們剛有提到第二項的情節應該是比第一項輕,如果我們把它提高到五年以上,反而輕的會變成處罰比較重,可能會有體系失衡的問題。以上報告。好,謝謝。來法務部有沒有說明?我們意見跟司法院一致,也是贊成維持現行的條文,因為之前已經做過橫平性的考量,那也請委員們參考。好,那請問委員有沒有意見?"},{"start":10768.434,"end":10789.862,"text":"若違沒有意見,那我們就維持現行條文。來,第32條。好,第32條,我們也是麻煩委員看大版本。那一共有四位委員,有四個版本。那第一項也是提高刑度跟罰金。那第二項,意圖盈利的也是提高刑度,有五到十二年,有七年以上。"},{"start":10790.662,"end":10806.94,"text":"厲三個每一屆交付收受的這個部分也是委員的版本也是提高它的刑度有三年以上十年以下然後有另外一個版本是五年以上那都涉及刑度跟罰金我們仍然請司法院跟法務部表示意見好來那個法務部先表示意見好了"},{"start":10813.973,"end":10831.242,"text":"好,跟主席跟各位委員報告,有關這個提高刑度的部分本部是有就整體的跟其他的刑法相關所各個罪章要保護的法益跟相關罪行有做一個整體橫平性的考量所以包括從第32條到第38條的部分我們一起來看的話"},{"start":10836.325,"end":10836.345,"text":"議員林岱樺"},{"start":10855.552,"end":10860.356,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":10879.213,"end":10880.554,"text":"現行事務上也有很多移送少年的案件。"},{"start":10898.3,"end":10910.162,"text":"如果說我們一律因為這次那個委員的要提高的刑度也林林總總很多哈那我們就把一個通盤的一個狀況好就就講如果說"},{"start":10911.519,"end":10934.172,"text":"我們把刑度提高到五年以上的話那這種案件將來會由少年法院依照少年事件處理法27條第一項的規定就會全部送到地檢署那這樣的話檢察官他就會要必須依刑事訴訟法的規定來偵查起訴雖然說依照少年事件處理法第83條規定是可以塗銷他的前科紀錄"},{"start":10935.649,"end":10954.451,"text":"那可是司法院還是不是要提供這個前科紀錄給教育部來落實預防狼屍的機制這個就大家要考量還是還是說這個部分將來我們要不要給我的意思是說要不要給這些青少年一個機會如果一律都是縱行然後送地檢署那"},{"start":10955.93,"end":10958.592,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":10972.982,"end":10975.385,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":10975.385,"end":10997.085,"text":"進入偵查階段,像這樣的狀況,司法院是不是還是要提供這個紀錄給教育部,這個部分可能也要一起思考。那如果說我們把刑度提高到三年以上、十年以下,那剛剛有提過,夾關就是依照刑事處罰規定,就是不能夠違緩起訴處分,只能提公訴。那如果行為人像是大學生、出入社會的青年,有時候對於一些情節狀況"},{"start":10998.126,"end":11025.649,"text":"因為各種狀況很多我們很難一概而論那如果是他等於這樣的情節只是分享拍攝散佈一張幾張這樣的影像我們一律都要這樣處理提起公訴是不是符合罪責的相當性跟很平性我想這個我們都是一併的考量所以原則上我們是希望說32條到38條是不是就維持這樣的我們這個原來的行動因為之前都考慮過"},{"start":11026.414,"end":11040.715,"text":"但是也是衛福部的版本那三十九跟四十四條還有我們再增加的也許是四十四之一那個地方我們在在這個不影響整盤通盤考量的刑責行動之下我們可以加重以上"},{"start":11041.897,"end":11042.197,"text":"法務部編譯"},{"start":11061.064,"end":11064.345,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":11088.542,"end":11095.81,"text":"現在少年法庭收到這些案件這些通通都是少性剝削防制條例"},{"start":11096.707,"end":11113.534,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條"},{"start":11125.499,"end":11145.097,"text":"還有下架還有將來的技術可行比如說未來的比如說速發部能夠協助檢警協助第一線的警察機關能夠去阻絕而且這個其實網路是大家共同使用的就好像我剛跟同仁在反映就是說我們討論現在我們其實不能用封網這是化療手段"},{"start":11145.877,"end":11169.698,"text":"全部部分青紅皂白全部都把它封下去但是要發展標靶式要把這個併造比如說行為人對被害人的傷害怎麼樣及時能夠去處理才是一個重點也就是行政部門立即有效的這樣一個國家的一個行動的團隊能夠解決這個問題但是重刑其實我要這個就是謝謝剛剛法務部參事提到的"},{"start":11170.198,"end":11192.62,"text":"目前正在發生中的我們剛修的現行法現在已經在製造一些問題了那這些高職的學生他的父母都是把孩子送進私立的高中可是這些孩子其實他其實並沒有要剝削對方但是通通都中標通通都進入我們的刑法體系那這時候我們怎麼辦"},{"start":11194.001,"end":11220.808,"text":"在少子高齡化的社會所以我會奉勸大家就是我們會強烈的希望能夠維持目前的布板那怎麼樣的去強調剛剛其實昭偉有提到教育端如果我們的性教育我們的這樣的性別教育我們都還沒有做到就是夠好的情況通通都有重刑我覺得我們製造的問題可能會比我們這個立法的建樹可能要來的就是"},{"start":11221.528,"end":11224.15,"text":"委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":11237.021,"end":11265.025,"text":"這樣的一個產業鏈這個是而且要透過國際之間的這樣一個就是相互的去防制否則其實這一題我們會失去很多我們其實可以發展的部分總之司法院立場就是我們要往前面往前做行政先行的部分讓它要能夠有效到位但是後面的刑罰其實我們還是要希望能夠回到罪行相當還有去追究應該要負責任的這些產業或者這些大人"},{"start":11265.705,"end":11279.972,"text":"而少了這樣的性剝削。這個簡單的補充以上,謝謝。好,謝謝法務部跟司法院的補充說明。請問委員針對這個部分有沒有表達意見的?好,來,蔡委員。"},{"start":11284.129,"end":11302.786,"text":"主席因為我們剛剛司法院跟法務部都是針對32條以下的條文那我想因為32條本質上跟接下來的影像的部分會有很大的不同所以我是建議說是不是先把32條處理掉再來進一步的處理影像的部分"},{"start":11303.86,"end":11325.547,"text":"因為三十二條他涉及到這個什麼引誘流龍引誘流龍招募的這個然後我還有一個具體的一個要請教這個衛福部的就是說因為這個三十二條的本身他是沒藉兒童去為這個性交或猥褻行為那如果他對接"},{"start":11327.356,"end":11355.263,"text":"對接這個《兒少權益保障法》也就是這個《兒少性剝削法》的母法的時候它應該會對接到第49條的行為太陽也就是第49條的第九項強迫引誘流氓或媒介兒少為猥褻或性交行為那如果是49條的對接的話它就會又進入到第97條也就是違反第49條第一項各款規定之一者"},{"start":11356.085,"end":11377.504,"text":"處新台幣六萬元以上、六十萬元以下罰款並得公佈姓名或名稱。我要重點就是說並得公佈姓名或名稱也就是說對於這個加害者的本身衛福部是可以公佈姓名或名稱讓社會大眾或者是社區查詢的時候知道說我的社區內可能有"},{"start":11380.435,"end":11409.194,"text":"會對兒少為性剝削又是三十二條這樣行為會性剝削的人的姓名這個是要供社會大眾查詢的那目前我們所了解的要去查詢這樣的資訊是有困難的那我想要請教一下如果以這個相關的條文這樣把它看起來為什麼現在還沒有落實到公佈姓名這個加害者的姓名這件事情這個是我現在比較在意的"},{"start":11412.366,"end":11441.433,"text":"好,這個從三十二條、三十三條、三十四條、三十五條,這個都是針對招募、引誘、擁有、媒介,其實都是相關的那個法則嘛。好,到三十六條才是重置,所以我們是不是就一併從三二到三五,如果委員對於你這個修法有些什麼意見,我們就一併表達,然後一併處理,好不好?"},{"start":11442.093,"end":11442.313,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":11458.615,"end":11474.99,"text":"那個剛剛法務部跟司法院是覺得維持現行條文,那委員都有提出要加重的版本,那是不是請委員表示意見,好來蔡委員。就是說因為剛剛法務部跟司法院的意見,它是已經整定到了38條的太陽,所以它在"},{"start":11475.49,"end":11479.753,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":11502.298,"end":11520.628,"text":"他們剛剛的意思都是維持現行條文,他們剛剛的意思是一直到三八都維持現行條文。所以現在是請委員表示意見,就是如果不認同法務部跟司法院的看法,有提版本的委員認為要加重的,就是可以再補充說明好不好。有沒有委員要表示意見?沒有齁?"},{"start":11531.902,"end":11552.539,"text":"他們就說要維持現行條文剛剛有講他們剛有特別提到一個是去年的修法一個是剛有提到說現在有一些是未成年人高中生可能也會涉及到處罰特別是司法院剛聽到提到"},{"start":11553.981,"end":11571.14,"text":"加重一併處理,可能對高中生、前端教育可能還沒有好,讓他已經處罰了,可能會影響到這一些未成年人。這個是他們希望委員在提加重處罰的時候去一併考量的。好,那是不是劉慧玲要表示意見呢?"},{"start":11580.055,"end":11607.904,"text":"我們當然不會說因為去修法加重就可以達到怎樣的一定程度的嚇阻效果我們也知道在去年已經大幅的修正這個法律了但是實際上在現在又發生做了這麼多案子禮拜的時候我特別跟部長提供了相關的一些訊息我們在網路上隨便摳機出來就是很多如果依照現在這樣的一個法條去做處理"},{"start":11608.604,"end":11622.8,"text":"好像只要有錢去和解,然後他似乎啦,我要表達說他似乎用原有沒修正過後的再去修正過後的法條,似乎沒有任何的阻絕的效果嘛。"},{"start":11623.45,"end":11645.342,"text":"所以今天才會導致很多委員希望把他再加重提醒,這個提醒再提高嘛。那如果說你們覺得說這樣的提高對實際上去年度的這樣的修法基本上是怎麼講,就是那個效益不大。那你們是不是,哪一個單位可以跟我們解釋一下說,你們有其他的。"},{"start":11647.023,"end":11659.672,"text":"的這樣的依據,不會讓這樣的事情再發生。我要表達這意思,大家應該聽得懂吧?誰可以來做答覆?禮拜五的時候,部長、司長都在嘛,對不對?"},{"start":11664.054,"end":11683.455,"text":"請部長講一下在請司法院跟法務部表示意見之前我想我們再回頭這幾次有關於兒少性剝削條例的專案報告裡面我個人的看法是覺得說"},{"start":11685.077,"end":11712.665,"text":"委員之所以在除了現影像,這等一下我們可以來做討論除了現影像之外的這些也就是說從32條到35條這樣子的一些違法的態樣犯罪的行為的態樣之所以想要再增加他的刑度原因大概就有兩個第一個就是說檢察官是否還起訴用的太多了一點"},{"start":11714.105,"end":11741.731,"text":"adequare就是法官判刑那用這個應該是59條的一個減輕期刑用的太過頻繁因為這事實上是有一些數據出來了所以我想就是說司法院跟法務部為了今天審查能夠節省時間應該就針對這兩點看未來有什麼樣的一些做法可以來就是說盡量不要讓社會有這樣子的異議"},{"start":11745.509,"end":11773.287,"text":"好,謝謝部長。那那個廖偉祥委員要發言,來請。對,謝謝部長的回答。那有關於刑度的問題,我想後面好幾條也都是類似的概念。所以像我自己提的是39、44跟41。那衛福部部板也都是建議維持原案。那我想概念也是一樣,我還是想要表達我的意見。就是說基本上這是有關刑度的部分。所以法務部、司法院都有很多意見,但是對比美國,我國法制的刑度就是遠低於美國嘛,對不對。"},{"start":11774.528,"end":11796.442,"text":"所以立委我覺得立委現在提出這麼多提高刑度修法的版本其實憑良心講也算是一個頭痛醫頭腳痛醫腳就是發現嚇阻效果不夠那會有這整個現象就是整體的刑度太低低到讓犯罪者都覺得再次犯罪的成本很低所以也沒有在怕的我想這也都是剛剛部長也表達的意見"},{"start":11797.282,"end":11819.087,"text":"所以我想也是為了節省時間我們也是對於我們立法院的態度或是這些立法委員為什麼要提高刑度就是希望真正達到嚇阻的效果所以這部分也希望說我們法務部和司法院是不是有一個整體未來可以給我們民意和給我們立法院一個交代"},{"start":11821.468,"end":11838.221,"text":"好 謝謝 那我們是不是請這個法務部跟司法院可以針對剛剛委員提到就是說到底如果不是加重刑責那你們在實務執行上面比如說第一個緩刑那這一次大家會這麼憤怒是覺得說這這麼嚴重了還緩刑會不會這個比這個到底是怎麼裁量的然後就是很快就可以服刑二分之一然後就出來了"},{"start":11850.165,"end":11857.552,"text":"到底在執行上法務部跟司法院可以怎麼樣落實就是符合民意啊就大家覺得說這一類不應該輕重輕放喔就是說就原來的"},{"start":11862.469,"end":11862.629,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":11884.017,"end":11899.251,"text":"我想三十二條到三十五條的一個太樣這個主要是利用兒少為性交或違憲的行為這個是比較嚴重的所以這個如果我們是用緩刑的標準的話那很多委員的提案"},{"start":11899.531,"end":11916.152,"text":""},{"start":11916.425,"end":11946.425,"text":""},{"start":11946.785,"end":11961.992,"text":"每一條每一條是不是還是要細部去討論,因為剛剛法務部跟司法院就是一個很籠統概括說,噢這樣就沒辦法進入少年事件處理法,或者是就沒有緩刑的要件,他是不是把這樣等於是把所有條文喊罵吼自己該講,這樣我們就失去了討論的一個意義好不好。"},{"start":11965.714,"end":11966.354,"text":"法務部及司法院"},{"start":11981.742,"end":12008.614,"text":"有關這個刑度要不要提高這個部分呢我們也按照這個刑度罪責相當相稱性、比例性所有的相關的原則來考量那我們認為因為上一次已經112年修法的時候其實這個部分該怎麼樣做刑度的調整衛福部、司法院還有本部都已經做整體有一個通盤的考量所以已經訂了這樣的一個刑度"},{"start":12010.855,"end":12029.842,"text":"則主要是因為也考量我們刑法其他的罪章包括防害秘密罪、防害性隱私及不實影像罪各個罪章的保護法益跟相關罪行已經做過有一次的通盤的整體平衡平行考量那這一次而且那一次的也是有跨部會、跨院部會的研商的共識那這一次有"},{"start":12030.782,"end":12039.29,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第四十四條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12045.555,"end":12047.637,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案"},{"start":12062.811,"end":12084.087,"text":"如果全部一併都整個提高我們會認為有以下幾個狀況就是就非意圖盈利的一般刑犯罪來看我剛有提到就是說現在手機電腦還有一些科技設備普及的實際的現行社會狀況兒童少年一手人手一機然後來處理拍攝製造新影像而且透過通訊軟體來散佈這個都不難"},{"start":12087.449,"end":12099.638,"text":"那實務上剛剛謝廷長也有提到現在有已經發生實際上案件就是移送少年的案件已經以現在的這個法定行路來看已經是情節看起來"},{"start":12101.226,"end":12105.128,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":12118.777,"end":12140.472,"text":"那這個案件會由少年法院就是剛說到只有少年事件處理法27條第1項來規定就一律移送地檢署那檢察官就必須依刑事送法規定來偵查起訴那這還涉及到這個他的前科資料我們現在是好像有保護保護那但是未來如果一旦進入刑事偵查這樣的一個記錄那"},{"start":12142.073,"end":12146.235,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12166.343,"end":12193.155,"text":"刑度提高到三年以上十年以下檢察官依刑事訴訟法規定就不能還起訴處分只能提供訴剛剛也提到如果是大學生出入社會的青年他有些行為情節假設是只有拍攝或者是散步分享一張幾張這樣的影像我們一律因為都已經符合構成要件我們是不是就一律要提供訴這樣有沒有符合罪責相當性跟衡平性那剛剛有說到我們這次有狀況是因為怎麼會給他還起訴"},{"start":12195.714,"end":12209.749,"text":"怎麼會給他緩刑那我跟委員報告就是因為過去持有這個東西是行政是只有行政法他是沒有刑責那我們是去年修了以後才把它變成一年以下有期徒刑的刑刑罰"},{"start":12210.592,"end":12237.572,"text":"那檢察老師說我們司法人員就是包括法官、檢察官我們在處理案件的時候我們當然很多情節不一而足那很多狀況我們必須個案來判斷那我們在判斷的時候基本上刑法五十七條是我們列為重要參考那包括他犯罪的目的、動機、手段還有犯後態度這個都是要考量那在處理這些過程中我們還有一個很重要的就是參考"},{"start":12238.473,"end":12243.195,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":12258.208,"end":12276.716,"text":"有點輕重但是以當時以現行的法制來看一年以下的有期徒刑他可能事後又給他又又呈現很多悔改的狀況甚至也是120萬的呃罰金其實這呃不不還起訴處分金其實這在我們一般案件上來評斷已經是高的"},{"start":12278.796,"end":12288.184,"text":"就當時就是處理個案的檢察官來他就以前參考的資訊那因為我沒有在我不是個案懲辦的檢察官我們不曉得他在偵辦的過程中他還有一些什麼其他的考量或被告展現出的什麼樣的誠意或善意我們我不能論斷但是我們尊重檢察官在個案的判斷的職權"},{"start":12299.734,"end":12323.441,"text":"還有他這個他就個案情節的這個處理那所以他是依法的他這個是合法的那所以我們那當然因為過去這樣的案件真的是很少所以我們可能就是都是一個在一個階段啦在一個過程的一個階段所以我相信經過這一次我們社會各界的重視還有輿論大家還有教育這個各個方面"},{"start":12324.361,"end":12345.395,"text":"我相信大家對這個兒少保護的這個意識會增強大家會更重視知道說啊你用金流用錢去做這個事情因為以前沒有同理心嗎覺得這個人我不認識我看了好像就只有我看他不曉得那個受害人是這樣一再的傳播對他的傷害有多大所以大家可能過去可能也許真的是"},{"start":12346.415,"end":12370.818,"text":"議事沒有被激發起來那我相信這次的討論一定會讓大家更有更了解那這個相信都是在一個階段一個過程中我相信這個部分以後我們再處理緩起訴那緩刑的部分待會可以司法院來跟各位報告我相信在緩起訴這個要不要處理這一塊我們相信不管是檢察官或者是警察或者是"},{"start":12370.998,"end":12371.218,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":12391.898,"end":12413.855,"text":"好 謝謝法務部的說明 來接下來我們請司法院謝庭長是 謝謝趙薇還有各位委員還有剛剛法務部參事的一個說明那這個參事說過的部分我再就不重複了那因為對於立法論如何入罪入刑包含刑法的良定當然這個是各位委員提出的這樣的一個方向"},{"start":12414.375,"end":12416.358,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":12431.458,"end":12447.593,"text":"而在去年我們修正的《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》已經其有提高了部分的一個刑度,那剛剛參詞提到的。那我剛剛其有分享到目前中部地區就有高職學生,這個大男生在洗澡的時候,大家就互拍隱私部位。"},{"start":12448.086,"end":12473.491,"text":"然而沒有經過對方同意之下就傳。現在的這些案子都已經在法院審理當中。按照去年修正的這個《兒童及少年性剝削防制條例》,這些大男生他們其實都不是要去剝削對方,但是都已經符合構成要件,通通都必須要被移送到檢察官。所以我們會發現,剛我有提出一個觀察,就是這一次的這個版本,"},{"start":12474.011,"end":12498.404,"text":"我們應該要加重的是前端的一個譬如封網跟下架還有怎麼樣的能夠去在這個封網之下他能夠去辨別這樣的一個就是行為人跟被害人的這個保護那這個部分可能必須要有很多的跨部會的一個協力發展出我們的一個執行的這個方法跟有效不至於說影響到其他參與這樣的一個網路活動的其他的正常的人"},{"start":12502.806,"end":12512.353,"text":"二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。第二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。第二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。第二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12527.384,"end":12536.488,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬"},{"start":12556.656,"end":12574.098,"text":"那CRC的前一次的國家報告,我們也納入我們整個的一個兒少這樣的一個就是保護。那這個會跟CEDAW公約、CRPD公約在司法人員的意識的提升上,我們都還有努力的空間。但是對於良心的部分,他還是必須要個案去判斷。"},{"start":12574.929,"end":12586.713,"text":"那這個委員有提到就是比如說之前的統計數字我要提出來的觀察是去年修法通過的這樣一個比較重刑的部分並沒有反映在整個統計數字上因為以前其實是舊的這個法律統計數字上我們看得出來的"},{"start":12591.515,"end":12596.036,"text":"再來第三點是,行事廳等下朱法官說不定可以補充,行事廳也準備了一個草案,妥適良刑法草案。如何良刑其實是一個必須兼具理論跟實務的,每個個案怎麼樣的去協助他們,從他們的一個犯罪行為,能夠從中得到學習,甚至於得到治療,如果有一些是需要治療的,但是通常都是認知,是教育的問題。"},{"start":12618.74,"end":12638.542,"text":"所以如果能夠針對他們的一個行為其實是錯誤的可是這些錯誤的認知其實也都是整個社會造成的怎麼樣去從社會教育端、學校教育端那能夠協助他們透過整個司法介入的過程比如說剛剛提到緩刑如果今天我是一個法官我在考量他要入監服刑或者是他要去緩刑期間給他一個付款"},{"start":12640.804,"end":12659.604,"text":"閱讀院查看,讓要求他要去接受哪些的教育,那要不的話違反之後其實可以撤銷緩刑。那這樣子帶給行為人他一個調整自我能夠重新參與社會,而不至於讓他跟社會隔離,是不是也是一種刑罰的效果。那我會在這邊提出來的是,"},{"start":12660.365,"end":12662.668,"text":"該案的統計,每個個案都有一些個別性的因素。"},{"start":12676.187,"end":12698.841,"text":"那這個部分當然是一個良心的一個刑罰的一個使用那未來如果怎麼樣的妥適良心也是司法院的一個政策跟目標我們希望能夠早日完成妥適良心法草案讓這個就是這個每個個案的良心都可以有一個基準可以遵循那以上補充也謝謝大家謝謝好謝謝謝庭長那朱法官有要補充嗎刑事庭來"},{"start":12703.322,"end":12731.047,"text":"行事庭我們尖端補充法官有關剛剛我們部長有提到有關量刑或緩刑或者是說是不是適用刑法59條減刑的這個議題當然法官對於自己的裁判是要接受社會公平我們也虛心接受我是來自於基層的我也從事很多年的刑事審判事務"},{"start":12731.647,"end":12759.93,"text":"那我也簡單講一下法官就這個相關的議題的一些思考我們先從59條的那個先科民宿要進行這個規定是規定在刑法總則它是所有犯罪都有適用那是為了等於是一種輕輕法重的調節不只是在兒少性剝削而已任何案件都有適用那它是考量事務上的案件類型非常多"},{"start":12760.53,"end":12775.545,"text":"那有一些案件如果確實法官在審酌其他的要件不是很寬他第一個必須是依照一般的客觀客觀情形認為他是嫌可民宿是嫌可民宿是值得同情的那第二個"},{"start":12776.986,"end":12798.695,"text":"法定刑 立法院所通過的法律的法定刑即使我們把它減了就算適用最低度的刑度仍然過重那我們一般的考量就是會考量包括說他這個被告他本身的情況比如說他是不是之前有沒有前科"},{"start":12799.295,"end":12815.148,"text":"那是不是這個是出於年輕事前一時好奇那他事後的犯惡態度有沒有認罪有沒有積極去悔改那嘗試跟被害人和解並培養損害等等這一些因為實務的案件類型真的太多了不能排除會有這種狀況那如果真的有狀況才會用到這一條來佐檢"},{"start":12819.651,"end":12837.476,"text":"那如果說這個佐檢不當當然接受社會公平那現在的機制就是可以提上訴警察官可以不服可以上訴啊那就依照現有的審計機制去做一個救濟那相對的緩刑的話緩刑其實跟法定刑比較沒有關係"},{"start":12839.056,"end":12853.384,"text":"法定行其實即使第第三年,如果我們用新法五十九條佐檢,讓他的宣告形式在兩年以內,那當然要符合其他的要件,他五年內沒有故意再犯罪。那審酌以後暫時觀察,不要讓他馬上進去執行,為適當的話,我們請向給他一個機會。那有相關的一些處遇,如果有違反什麼樣的條件,"},{"start":12863.109,"end":12878.878,"text":"當然還是要撤銷緩刑繼續執行那以上這個其實都是接受大家的指教那我只是在強調這個其實都是我們所尊重憲法審判的核心那司法院就司法行政當然有一個監督的職責"},{"start":12880.018,"end":12896.149,"text":"但是我們可以做的就是像剛剛我們謝庭長有提到我們會透過除了說這個相關的法制面以外我們法官學院都會開設課程請一些專家來有關一些相關的一些包括被害人的保障、創傷認知這些部分讓法官有更具備這樣的意識甚至我們會開諮詢會議把相關的一些良心我們可能會編制一些手冊"},{"start":12909.559,"end":12909.859,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":12918.829,"end":12944.255,"text":"如果說我們要把法定刑貿然提高可能最後最重要要補充一點我們法定刑原來是一年以上、七年以下法官本來在這個裁量刑度就可以判三年、四年、五年嘛一上七下最終可以判到七年怎麼判依照個案的情節不要違反罪行相當原則那我們如果硬要把它提高成三上十下"},{"start":12944.935,"end":12969.034,"text":"第一個,它的嚇阻的效果到底在哪裡?這個可能就要去研究。再來的話,它會連動到程序面。如果把它提高到三上十下,在實施送法,它會變成一個重罪類型。那它變成即使被告認罪,一定要有三位法官依照通常程序審理。那它是強制辯護案件。如果被告沒有自己選任律師,"},{"start":12969.935,"end":12973.398,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":12996.658,"end":13007.318,"text":"又把它提高成它是強制評估案件,那一律都要三個法官依照比較慎重的程序去審理的話,這個實務上有沒有辦法符合也請委員參考。那以上補充。"},{"start":13008.854,"end":13038.252,"text":"好 謝謝法務部跟司法院的補充說明那我來處理一下那個程序因為我之前有宣告過我們審理的原則就是逐條但是如果沒有辦法達成共識我們都是一律先保留那因為以下都涉及到這個刑度的問題那剛剛我是建議就是如果這個沒有共識的我們第一輪都先保留在刑度的部分"},{"start":13038.732,"end":13054.398,"text":"那這個剛剛有特別提到持有的部分是過去沒有討論的就是說這邊有版本的我們就先討論好不好其他的我看起來這個法務部司法院跟委員的版本之間這個大家共識其實是有落差的齁"},{"start":13055.123,"end":13079.353,"text":"那剛剛其實法務部跟司法院也有做一些比較清楚的說明所以沒有公示的部分我建議就先保留好不好我們爭取這個審理的實效那我們就以下針對衛福部有提出版本的要再次修法的我們就先討論那其他的部分呢因為都涉及到刑度我們就保留下午的時候呢再回過頭來處理"},{"start":13082.333,"end":13086.156,"text":"三十六條,我們建議參考大的版本,第二十一頁。我們這一次修法在第一項、第二項跟第三以及第七項爭略了重置這個樣態。"},{"start":13102.728,"end":13119.837,"text":"那同時在這個第一項裡面定名這個罰金的下限。那補充修正第二項跟第三項,如果罰金下限比照第一項要增訂的話,我們也建議可以把罰金的下限補充。以上。好。那針對三十六條的部分,就交各位委員有沒有意見。好,來陳昭志委員。"},{"start":13133.066,"end":13136.821,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有提修正動議案在第七案。"},{"start":13142.47,"end":13164.458,"text":"有將與性相關而客觀上足以引起性慾或羞恥是圖案、語音或其他物品。本黨建議修正定義為與性相關而客觀上足以引起刺激或滿足性慾且無藝術性、醫學性或教育性價值。"},{"start":13165.698,"end":13176.381,"text":"而另一半人感覺不堪呈現於眾或不能忍受而排除之圖畫、語音或其他物品除了就是排除這個所謂藝術性、醫學性跟教育性之外那就是說是不是把這一類的這個物品以下稱這個性圖畫影音物品那當然其他的相關如果大家同意的話其他部分的相關條也配合一起修正那我們這邊寫這個的理由就是想要避免誤傷這個所謂的二次元的這個"},{"start":13194.147,"end":13202.918,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":13214.331,"end":13235.417,"text":"我們有提出的修法建議是參照刑法加重結果犯罪的立法例對於犯本條前三項之罪的行為人如果有營利的意圖或行為時因為犯罪的侵害犯罪人程度更寬更廣我們覺得這個部分是不是還是可以考慮可以考慮就是意圖營利還是可以考慮加重處罰以上 謝謝好 針對三十六條請問還有沒有委員有不同的意見"},{"start":13246.82,"end":13247.761,"text":"好,來,范委員。"},{"start":13271.357,"end":13273.659,"text":"二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十六條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":13291.937,"end":13291.977,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":13313.672,"end":13339.298,"text":"省博洋跟我的有一個版本是在39條那他是有在處理這個圖畫的定義那圖畫的定義就是避免像剛剛陳昭之委員所講到說在圖畫上會把所謂的二次元虛擬人物納入所以我們是希望可以不動條文的本身然後在立法理由把它宰明清楚那也就是衛福部現在"},{"start":13340.178,"end":13340.238,"text":"議員黃捷等"},{"start":13363.215,"end":13388.767,"text":"陳昌智委員,來,請。我再補充一下,因為剛剛我說的這個修正的要排除是因為原來在第二條,那個地方如果修正我們今天就可以順著來,但是因為這個我們現在已經進入36條,所以我說明一下,我們在第二條要修正那個包括這個要排除無藝術性、醫學性或教育性等等,是這樣子來,在第二條的部分,就提到了這個部分,謝謝。好,謝謝。還有沒有委員要表示意見?好,來,黃捷委員。"},{"start":13395.595,"end":13416.34,"text":"好,當然要先感謝那個衛福部有把我就是提那個重置放在36條。那除了說這個樣態有放進去很重要之外,我想要再請教一下我們這個刑度的調整,你們的依據是什麼?那就是這樣的刑度你們覺得是適當的嗎?可不可以再說明一下?因為你們還是有明定這個罰金的下限嘛。"},{"start":13424.278,"end":13425.653,"text":"好,謝謝。來,我思耀委員。"},{"start":13428.932,"end":13454.188,"text":"謝謝主席。我有提出三十六條的一個修正動議,就是增加第四項。現行一、二、三項在處置的是拍攝、製造、重製這些兒少的性影像等等。那我增加的第四項是這樣的。意圖盈利或支付對價犯前三項之罪者,依各條文之規定,加重其刑責之二分之一。"},{"start":13454.868,"end":13475.495,"text":"而在週一的質詢時,我提到,因為現行的條文對於無償的下載是一種規範,但是現在沒有把支付對價,你去花錢購買,也就是創意私房這些的高級會員們,他本身的罪責跟"},{"start":13476.195,"end":13479.156,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":13501.323,"end":13520.299,"text":""},{"start":13520.479,"end":13520.619,"text":"好,我們請黃國昌委員。"},{"start":13550.453,"end":13566.641,"text":"謝謝主席我們針對36條所提出的修正動議大概分兩個部分來予以說明第一個部分針對第一項、第二項、第三項的部分重新調整它的法定最高刑以及最低刑"},{"start":13567.381,"end":13589.156,"text":"那13個不同行為的太陽依照他嚴重的程度然後逐漸的往上提高他的法定最低刑那最重要的事情是第四項的修正第四項就修正在我們因意圖營利這個在刑法的定義上是一個意圖犯我相信法務部代表跟司法院的代表"},{"start":13590.257,"end":13611.874,"text":"對這樣法文設計應該都很熟悉但現在我們在司法實務上面所產生最大的問題是什麼在兩次的質詢當中我其實清楚的點出來了所謂的加重期刑是二分之一這樣子的一個立法的技術在我國法院長久累積起來他們的解釋是"},{"start":13612.995,"end":13624.79,"text":"他們加重期刑至二分之一是最高刑度可以往上加二分之一最低刑度有加就好所謂有加就好呢大概就是從一個月開始那這樣子"},{"start":13626.229,"end":13649.727,"text":"加重情形的規定反映到我們的司法實務上三年以上有期徒刑我可以判三年一個月以上有期徒刑這種意圖盈利的犯罪形態竟然是以兒少的性影像來販賣牟利或者是以兒少的性影像來進行強暴脅迫的行為"},{"start":13652.213,"end":13672.383,"text":"法定最低刑如果我們維持現在法條的設計只是從加重期刑至二分之一我們可以非常合理的判斷接下來的司法實務一樣從最低刑加一個月就好了這個是我國目前在立法技術上反映到司法實務上面的重大問題"},{"start":13673.744,"end":13695.147,"text":"也因此這個樣子針對我們實務上面那樣的解釋雖然有學者提出批評包括台大法律系的教授許恆達在參加司法院相關的座談的時候也點出了他的看法因為如果刑法現在總則的規定是加重期刑最低最高其實都要同加同減嘛"},{"start":13696.268,"end":13722.984,"text":"但我們在司法實務的實踐上顯然不是這個樣子因此在立法的技術上我們在第四項針對意圖營利犯前三項之最一下列各項規定處罰分別依照第一項的罪、第二項的罪、第三項的罪然後再把他最低的法定刑再往上加因為我們法院實務上面的判決法官在量刑的時候都是從最低刑度開始的以上說明"},{"start":13725.02,"end":13730.044,"text":"好 謝謝 請問各位人針對第36條還有沒有要表達意見 來范委員事實因為我跟吳斯堯委員一樣我都有增加那個支付觀看這個部分但是我們放的位置不一樣吳斯堯委員是放在36條我是放在38條那我還有另外一個就是說泄露"},{"start":13749.099,"end":13775.347,"text":"就是當事人、被害人各自的部分也要那個加重刑期到二分之一因為就是說你有個性向然後再加上兒少性向他又是誰的話傷害更大這是原來沒有的項目所以我是建議主席是不是能夠把三六、三八跟那個三九一起討論因為它都蠻相關的只是我們放不一樣因為三十六條是拍攝製照那我們剛剛重製又放在這然後三十八條是散佈"},{"start":13776.347,"end":13795.56,"text":"然後三十九條是持有因為每個人放的不一樣那當然還有那個圖畫的定義的問題昨天是保留嗎在第二項那是不是可以把三六、三八、三九一起討論交換意見然後最後我們做一個決定的時候再來去處理各條文的文字這是一個建議啦好謝謝那還有沒有其他委員有不同的意見好來五位員"},{"start":13805.511,"end":13830.425,"text":"謝謝主席剛剛范雲委員說的其實我很認同因為我自己原始的條文是放在第39因為39的一大部分是在處理無正當理由持有然後我們可以第二階段進入說它是對價支付關懶的所以如果是要把它挪到39條我也非常支持只希望在支付關懶的這個部分對價支付關懶部分要放進來謝謝好謝謝"},{"start":13833.991,"end":13859.802,"text":"那還有沒有其他意見?那我們就三六、三八、三九就一併討論。那針對三六、三八、三九還有沒有要補充說明的?好,如果沒有的話,那麼請衛福部就針對三六、三八、三九就一併說明,好不好?好,謝謝委員。那也感謝吳委員剛才也確定就把那個支付對價,原先是要放在第三十六條,那同意可以放到三十九條,我們一併處理。"},{"start":13861.002,"end":13885.557,"text":"那剛才這個范委員特別問到說重置到底要放在三十六條比較適合還是三十八條比較適合那我們在跟網絡跟部會討論的時候有特別提到他比較像是跟製造的性質比較接近所以我們比較建議是放在三十六條那我就先回應到這裡"},{"start":13889.875,"end":13902.111,"text":"好,那其他部會有沒有針對委員提出來?剛剛黃國昌委員說加重期刑二分之一,那個他們的版本法務部跟司法院有沒有表達意見?"},{"start":13913.424,"end":13936.84,"text":"主席、各位委員好。黃委員的版本是在意圖營利的部分。意圖營利在第36條第4項本來就有加重期刑,但是委員是把它更細分,分別就各項如何加重,然後做比較明確的規範。原則上我們尊重就看其他大院的決議是。"},{"start":13941.323,"end":13941.664,"text":"主管機關補充說明"},{"start":13954.398,"end":13954.698,"text":"持有的定義"},{"start":13984.744,"end":13985.004,"text":"黃建豪委員"},{"start":14001.51,"end":14030.299,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":14031.778,"end":14035.908,"text":"好,謝謝黃委員。那還有沒有委員要針對36383表達意見?來,范委員。"},{"start":14039.588,"end":14040.829,"text":"衛福部 重置還是無故重置?"},{"start":14069.708,"end":14097.94,"text":"那重置就是下載所以這其實是比較重的所以要放重置還是無故重置就是說衛福部可不可以回應一下這個問題好來下載是不是重置下載就是重置我們在認定上下載是重置那如果是這樣子的話的確要再重演一點要不然有的人會無辜特別是剛剛提到很多未成年人一點一點就重置了是不是要加上無故重置"},{"start":14100.117,"end":14128.558,"text":"重置刑法的定義已經是下載就是重置?對啊,點一下就是下載了有關於這一個無故重置跟重置的一個區別如果我們念的是無故重置的話它的意思就是說你還是有重置、有下載這個動作但是你要去舉證說我是有正當理由"},{"start":14133.711,"end":14151.989,"text":"因為去處理的部分的話,我想這包括我們的檢檢單位的話,他是看到有這個重置行為的話,其實他就已經符合構成要件。是否屬於無辜?"},{"start":14153.537,"end":14174.017,"text":"這個部分的話,會變成這個嫌疑人要去說明說他是有特定目的來這個重置的。比方說他要教學、他要各種狀況,變成要去證明這個事情,差別是在這個地方。"},{"start":14174.838,"end":14191.017,"text":"所以如果寫無故重置不是不可能,但是就是說那個所謂的那個有特殊理由的、有正當理由的重置的話,變成可能就是要被告來做舉證。"},{"start":14195.133,"end":14221.238,"text":"這個部分先保留我覺得還是有需要討論的空間因為比如說透過LINE傳輸很多孩子之間他們就是直接就這樣一按分享然後就出去了那他不想接到的已經到了他的手機這個算不算重置你知道嗎就是他把他按分享出去因為他是好友嘛但他根本沒有他沒有要蓄意去重置但他已經接收到了"},{"start":14222.168,"end":14242.885,"text":"這算不算?我覺得這個的確要小心一點,要不然很多孩子們之間的這個,它是被動的接收訊息,結果變成是重置,就是只要一接收到就變成重置,這個的確要實務上要很審慎的考量,要不然可能一竿子高中生可能全部都一年以上,"},{"start":14246.228,"end":14271.486,"text":"對 這個就是亂一個群組的這一種我覺得亂有一種就是因為他不是發送者但他是好友他就會他手機上的確就有了那那個怎麼辦圖片就進來了不是他要不要點閱的問題就已經有了所以這一個可能細緻度上面我覺得還要再考量所以我們先36、38、39我們都先保留好不好好來黃捷"},{"start":14276.757,"end":14280.5,"text":"司法院及法務部可否再針對故意犯或過失犯?"},{"start":14295.872,"end":14297.432,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":14297.432,"end":14303.834,"text":"我幫忙說明一下我們去年刑法319之三條性私密影像針對成人的部分我們的文字是未經他人同意逗號無故重置頓號散布所以我們當時用的是無故重置然後這個等等罰是五年以下得病科五十萬元以下罰金"},{"start":14325.678,"end":14352.659,"text":"所以是不是跟我們的刑法針對成人的一樣又無故重置比較一致啊?嗯。好。好。那那個時間的關係齁。我想上午大家已經討論非常久。讓大家休息一下。我們中午休息一個小時齁。那下午我們會繼續處理。然後有共識的部分我們就通過齁。然後沒有共識的部分我們就保留。我們會送出委員會。就在召開協商。對對對。"},{"start":14355.609,"end":14356.85,"text":"好,我們現在休息一點半繼續開會。"},{"start":14391.326,"end":14391.347,"text":"案。"},{"start":18108.339,"end":18133.92,"text":"好 我們繼續開會那上午我們36、38、39都是保留然後我們繼續往下我們保留完之後我們最後再一輪回來那最後一輪回來的時候呢就是有共識的條文我們就通過沒有共識的條文我們就保留然後送出委員會然後我會另外再召集協商這個就是我們下午的處理原則來接下來第40條"},{"start":18141.403,"end":18141.983,"text":"第四十條的部分是"},{"start":18170.359,"end":18198.758,"text":"我們建議是不以增訂、不以修正目前這個部分涉及法行為人那是增加這個除了增加誘拐這個行為樣態還有對於非對價性交貨猥褻行為之餘的訊息那這部分會涉及到司法是不是也請司法院跟這個法部來表示意見"},{"start":18202.375,"end":18205.3,"text":"法務部和司法院的意見"},{"start":18230.634,"end":18236.72,"text":"委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":18254.855,"end":18261.678,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":18277.944,"end":18294.599,"text":""},{"start":18294.599,"end":18297.581,"text":"閱讀委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":18322.036,"end":18325.218,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":18349.091,"end":18349.331,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":18363.968,"end":18364.729,"text":"委員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":18379.731,"end":18380.971,"text":"司法院有要補充說明嗎?四十條"},{"start":18410.002,"end":18434.396,"text":"我說明一下就是說謝謝那個范委員這個部分的一個就是提案我想方向應該大概都是跟少年性剝削的這個主要的立法目的是一樣的但是我們還是必須要說在立法論的部分來說如果說我們在入罪的這樣的一個刑法的樣態上導致就是在含涉的過程它其實是有一個重複的問題"},{"start":18435.316,"end":18451.842,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。議員林�"},{"start":18459.445,"end":18459.845,"text":" bicyclist 指責議員"},{"start":18478.775,"end":18498.32,"text":"我記得之前梁小午猜法務部也曾經做過除罪化的法治研究世界各國對於未滿16歲而且這個族群其實他更常發現在我們的一個從有性的意識的萌芽跟整個成長過程的性探索"},{"start":18499.2,"end":18512.853,"text":"這些都會因為他的一個網路時代他其實你很難去界定說那這不是屬於他的一個性的一個發展跟性的認識、性的認同這中間你如何去評價這個行為那我覺得太危險"},{"start":18513.814,"end":18516.817,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":18535.615,"end":18562.184,"text":"那大人世界應該要避免兒少去剝削,尤其是一些有對價的這個行為。那我覺得這次的一個修法應該是要掌握這樣的一個立法的防針,那不要製造其他更多的問題。但是我相信這些委員都是基於希望讓這個防制網絡能夠更健全。那這個大概是以上補充剛剛法務部參事的一個意見,謝謝。好,謝謝。來,剛剛林淑芬委員要發言,請。"},{"start":18564.82,"end":18582.531,"text":"抱歉,我還是在講一個例子,這個在我諮詢的時候,你們都說審法條的時候再來慢慢詢問和處理,就是說有時候你加重了以後反而讓法官不敢判刑,比如說本刑三年以上、本刑七年以上這樣子,他反而"},{"start":18583.371,"end":18602.159,"text":"不敢判。然後我再講一個例子就是說這是一種這個例子吧。第二種例子就是說有一個警察因為通知這個少女說你有性剝削影像然後不是是那個少女自己知道他有被拍攝性剝削影像然後去報案"},{"start":18604.8,"end":18622.786,"text":"結果那個業務就是職務利用職務之便的這個警察就跟少女說你是什麼影片你做什麼姿勢你拍攝什麼內容你重拍一次給我看這當然是三十六條的一二三第三項可是我不知道為什麼判刑定業了你們知道這個個案嗎結果"},{"start":18625.703,"end":18640.96,"text":"對怎麼判一年多呢?而且起訴的條文沒有使用到第三十六條裡面的第三項。沒有耶!這個到底是怎麼一回事?我們真的是百思不得其解。雖然三十六條已經過了。"},{"start":18642.361,"end":18667.037,"text":"但是就是說實務面為什麼會發生這個問題我想我們需要檢審或是監禁審這幾個方面來跟我們講清楚一下第一個就是說為什麼明明本行都是七年以上的脅迫或者是三年以上的結果判起來都是一年多而且都是出犯齊情革命但是拍了要自己觀賞的可是他到底是不是純粹自己觀賞的"},{"start":18668.558,"end":18688.396,"text":"他並沒有辦法去證明說他沒有上傳或是賣給這個性犯罪網站並沒有去求證這個過程直接就說他只是認證就直接認證他是自行關上的然後就輕放了第一個第二個那剛才我講利用職務之便的這個警察"},{"start":18689.377,"end":18713.073,"text":"他又騙,然後叫他再做那個動作,再自己拍一次,然後再傳給他以外,那個警察不是只有犯了這個三十六條第三項的罪,判一年多而已,他還賣給,他還賣給這個創意司法這種網站。所以理論上他已經犯了七年以上的徒刑、現行的條文喔,而且還要再加重二分之一喔,因為他也賣給盈利型的網站喔。"},{"start":18715.343,"end":18731.688,"text":"為什麼他最後是判一年多,就是說我們兩個禮拜前的質詢,然後這個社會新聞報導的,這個案件我不曉得,我覺得在這裡應該要給立委做一個說明啦。好,林淑媛委員講這個案件這個有上報,來羅廷惠委員。"},{"start":18734.755,"end":18751.488,"text":"好好謝謝這個委員剛好提到這個案件其實我也蠻關注這個案件我就非常不解那這一次我們發現創意四方但是又發現這個結構裡面說後續的調查裡面有八十幾個高級會員身份片及醫生老師工程師軍警可是其實"},{"start":18752.208,"end":18772.702,"text":"我覺得就是為什麼會在這一次的警察事件我們就發現到說有這樣子的利用職務之便那所以其實我是蠻擔心利用職務之便然後去取得然後或者是又拐又騙所以雖然上面有寫所謂的加重期刑二分之一但是最後判一年多我們是真的很傻眼而且而且而且我們"},{"start":18773.402,"end":18794.842,"text":"未來我就是對不起我我就要一定要很大的天馬行空去想像我們現在又還有所謂的影像處理中心任何一個中心或者是任何一個依職務之便可以取得個資或者是聯繫到當事者的或者是看到那個影片的人我們都擔心會不會他在這個部分上利用職務之便去"},{"start":18796.203,"end":18812.927,"text":""},{"start":18813.027,"end":18831.99,"text":"那是不是兒少應該也要考慮納入到利用職務之便、利用職權去脅迫、威脅、利誘、誘拐之類的拍攝散佈這些影像各自加重其刑,然後刑度要有實質的刑度,而不是就像可能剛剛其他委員有提到有寫加重刑期二分之一,但是根本不敢判。"},{"start":18832.41,"end":18832.55,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":18832.55,"end":18835.732,"text":"主席抱歉我是不是也是再補充一下就是說這裡面有兩個部分第一個就是利用植物之變它本來在這裡面就要加種了我們還要再加種第一第二個呢"},{"start":18855.043,"end":18869.571,"text":"他為什麼判一年多的原因是他不是用這一個三十六條也不是用兒少性剝削條例所以如果有法律上的競合的關係的話我們要求要從眾而且要就是說他跟其他法律有相關的話他必須要"},{"start":18870.512,"end":18886.958,"text":"引這個兒童及少年性剝削條例來起訴來辦案來重重處分。你不能幫助這一個犯罪人然後去幫助他減刑。我覺得這個個案如果你們不知道的話那就太荒謬了。這個個案真的是很值得從實務面還有法律面去來討論。這個時候不討論沒有得討論了。"},{"start":18891.62,"end":18918.082,"text":"我如果網路上搜尋沒有記錯的話他應該是使用那個類似各自法的一個私密保護的來做判刑可是我就覺得我非常不能夠接受因為我們都是孩子的父母親然後結果竟然用這個這麼一年半的一個刑期去判然後去用利用這個法所以我覺得就像剛剛委員說的我覺得這是不謀而合我們希望用最重的方式而且是有兩者的法律之下的話應該是著重刑的那個法律來做判刑"},{"start":18919.09,"end":18920.231,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":18937.603,"end":18959.125,"text":"先往下走有共識的就通過沒有共識的我們委員表達完意見之後我們都先保留好不好然後我們再回過頭來處理我們分兩個部分前半段比較是針對行政機關我們增設這一條文他們該做事項因為他們又有一些修正我想前面比較容易有一些有共識就先通過涉及到後面"},{"start":18959.665,"end":18961.607,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":18981.508,"end":18995.655,"text":"今天委員的這些意見,你們要反覆的思量。你們剛剛講的雖然有你們的道理,但是比如說剛剛提到的利用職務之便,為什麼反而沒有加重其刑?也沒有引用更重的條文?那這個已經有一個案例在那裡。那你們到底要怎麼樣去"},{"start":19000.549,"end":19000.569,"text":"閱讀委員"},{"start":19018.75,"end":19042.897,"text":"我們訂了這樣的法律法官往往都引刑法第五十九條這個給他解刑還有檢察官為什麼這麼喜歡還起訴那這個事情的原因是什麼檢跟審至少今天要跟大家稍微講一下他們剛剛上午有講過上午講過有理由是什麼他們已經講過了他們對啦原因是什麼就是在他們說他們沒有刻意要這樣"},{"start":19045.333,"end":19063.732,"text":" bicyn 他們都有原因的,因為每個個案都是個案,好嗎?每個個案都必須尊重。 林 沒有,那我們在法制面有沒有辦法想辦法就是,這個不得援引刑法五十九條,要不要排除刑法五十九條。 bicyn 對,所以我才說,其實有一些商務都已經討論過了,那就是說我們待會就是,"},{"start":19064.773,"end":19091.414,"text":"行政部門有提出修正版本的我們就先討論看可不可以通過好不好如果不行的就先保留那委員提案的這些我們第二輪回來就是再繼續原則有委員提案的我們都先保留好不好因為修法的要加重行者從上午討論到現在法務部有他的立場司法院也有他的看法那他們也擔心說這樣子一定下去會不會波及這一些未成年人也通通掃進來了然後這個到底"},{"start":19094.636,"end":19111.107,"text":"需要怎麼樣分層次處理因為我想委員提出來就是說針對這些惡意的是成人來謀利的或是利用職務之便的這些要加重其刑不是要去懲罰這些未成年人那在立法技術上有沒有可能脫鉤處理就是說不會這樣一竿子就是通通所以這個需要讓他們一點時間再去思考"},{"start":19124.251,"end":19126.833,"text":"對對對所以這個就是要給比較縝密的思考嗎所以我認為這部分可能還需要如果今天送出去委員會之後我們透過朝野協商也讓法務部跟司法院回去再針對委員提出來這些不同的面向你們再仔細思考"},{"start":19140.722,"end":19150.246,"text":"應該不太可能今天下午馬上立即一問一答就有共識所以這個部分我們就先保留但是我們讓委員盡量發表就是說你在這邊你為什麼覺得應該要加重你看到的觀點跟什麼那法務部跟司法院必須都記錄下來就是說委員的這些角度都有他的道理的"},{"start":19158.989,"end":19160.11,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":19183.951,"end":19208.741,"text":"更具體的,你們今天其實都沒有提版本,因為你都不同意,所以都沒有提版本。那你早上有談論到比如說可以點餐,然後去出任務,點餐就本來是支付費價的關懶,就關懶人可以變成點餐,那變成教說和指使的狀況,這樣我就有討論到這個嗎?那個在後面吧,可能還沒有。我們現在圖理到40條而已,對。"},{"start":19214.682,"end":19220.747,"text":"對,好,那如果這樣子的話,我們四十條就是還是先保留。來,四十條之一。四十條之一,如果四十條確定的話,它的內容是包含在四十條裡頭。好,那四十條之一就是合併到四十條一併討論,不另行爭定。"},{"start":19241.179,"end":19258.416,"text":"來,四十三條還有一條,四十一條之一那個組織刑犯罪這個部分你那個寫錯,四十一條之一我們要請法務部表示意見"},{"start":19261.241,"end":19289.002,"text":"法務部表示意見,是用組織形式。根據委員報告,事實上我們如果依照組織犯罪條例來看的話,那如果兒少性剝削的犯罪人有符合組織犯罪特殊的構成要件,其實我們是可以用組織犯罪條例來直接處理。像我們之前台中地檢署,台版N號房的某一個案件,他們的被告"},{"start":19290.219,"end":19304.498,"text":" ︎台中地檢就是有用組織犯罪條例來處理那特殊的構成要件跟委員報告就是三人以上然後那個手段是強暴、脅迫、恐嚇、詐欺的手段然後那個最重本行欲就是超過五年以上"},{"start":19305.299,"end":19308.48,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":19325.885,"end":19351.47,"text":"好,那我想其實這個部分我們如果可能就不太需要重複的在這裡構成要件再訂,因為這可能構成要件會有點矩語,因為我們其實組織犯罪條例已經有很明確的組織是什麼意義,那如果我們這個兒童及少年性剝削防制條例的定義如果跟那個沒有不一樣,我覺得就不需要再訂了。好,那個請羅廷惠委員提案委員來。好,"},{"start":19353.652,"end":19380,"text":"我想組織犯罪有趣定義我們都知道但是因為網路的新型態有所謂的新組織的一個構成所以我覺得應該要去做一個探討那我就想請問司法這個部分如果法務部這部分如果今天創意司法我們先不講他構成的版組他們有可能有三人以上的脅迫之類的假設有一個網友他自願擔當幾到幾歲的版組"},{"start":19384.028,"end":19393.124,"text":"當他從來沒認識創辦版主他只是自願性他願意來擔任這個志工擔任這個版主然後獲取這一個論壇裡面的利益"},{"start":19394.113,"end":19413.862,"text":"那會不會形成一個組織犯罪的其中一環那這次算不算新型態組織他從來都沒有跟真正的創版版主在一起過認識過但是他去擔任了其中一環的版主假設他們有動漫版動漫十八禁版假設還有幼兒版假設"},{"start":19415.183,"end":19426.472,"text":"讓他去擔任這樣子的一個版組之一協助管理業務網路業務去言論整理之類的那他算不算這個組織裡面如果抓到的話"},{"start":19431.408,"end":19431.869,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":19446.428,"end":19475.138,"text":"你現在不就是在討論不用去看就是因為我們希望能夠整個根、根絕他們不管你你不應該去擔任這樣子的志工班主你不應該去從中獲取這個論壇的利益因為他獲取利益就是獲取可能兌換幣我不知道因為我沒有參與讓他去換更多的影片之類的這都是呃整個組織犯罪的其中一環當中只是他沒有直接參與他間接參與了算不算組織犯罪不好意思我說那這是新型的組織要不要定義起來"},{"start":19475.803,"end":19500.416,"text":"我們請說明來我們其實我們的意見針對是組織這兩個字因為組織在我們的組織犯罪條例它有它的定義那這個定義可能會跟這個兒童性剝削條例裡面有一些沒有辦法會有點會想矛盾的地方所以我們的意見其實只是針對組織那兩個字那如果說不要用組織這兩個字那我們也尊重"},{"start":19500.896,"end":19507.149,"text":"就是要 如果要呈現你是說組織這兩個跟你們原來的那個定義是可能就會"},{"start":19508.67,"end":19534.879,"text":"瞭解,瞭解你的意思。你們並不反對加重刑刑,但是使用組織這個字眼可能怕你們在...對,因為我們的組織犯罪條例,它要三人以上,然後它的手段要強暴脅迫。瞭解。然後它的罪,雖然是禍啦,它要逾五年以下。瞭解,那是相對嚴格,但是新型態有可能剛剛羅委員自己也講,它會不同的型態,你剛剛講這些,它可能就是一種"},{"start":19535.699,"end":19560.043,"text":"刑事不見得符合那個組織的定義黃國昌委員我基本上會建議法務部、司法院也可以在討論條文的時候實際上面在實務上面最後判決的結果要比較清楚的講現在我還不是單純的在講刑度的問題"},{"start":19562.112,"end":19583.321,"text":"因為剛剛你們所在講,說組織犯罪防制條例裡面已有規定,然後可以判到五年以上,你指的是哪一個條文?是哪一個過程要見?來,請你直接看法條,你把條文唸出來。"},{"start":19591.434,"end":19606.2,"text":"不好意思,我根本聽不懂你在說什麼。不好意思,我說明一下齁,它的定義是規定在主事番第二條第一項。這個我知道。對。我齁,這樣具體的講好了啦。是。"},{"start":19607.97,"end":19629.458,"text":"我又說不對,請法務部糾正我。組織犯罪條例在我國實踐上面,事實上它發揮的功能非常有限。我為什麼說它發揮的功能非常有限?因為你以組織的形態去犯犯罪的時候,事實上在第一次的犯罪當中,全部都被想像進而掉了。所以組織犯罪的條文會被吃掉。"},{"start":19632.426,"end":19658.892,"text":"你大概去看有構成組織犯罪條例的你把那個判決全部弄出來以後你會發現組織犯罪防制條例的條文最後全部都被吃掉最有名的是什麼最有名的就是刑法339條之四這個是現在的大眾嘛339條之四他的法定刑是一上、七下嘛跟組織犯罪條例比起來全部都被想像性合掉了所以組織犯罪條例根本沒有用到"},{"start":19660.985,"end":19686.305,"text":"這個是我國在針對組織犯罪的時候我們過去在立法上面因為太偷懶沒有細緻的規定什麼叫做立法上面太偷懶沒有細緻的規定是當你透過犯罪組織去特定犯罪的時候事實上他比單獨犯或者是偶發聚集的聚合犯他對於"},{"start":19688.197,"end":19713.083,"text":"我們法益保護所造成的侵害的嚴重程度是高非常多倍這個是一開始要去定組織犯罪條例的時候的立法意旨但我們在定組織犯罪防制條例的時候並沒有跟其他犯罪形態的去相結合什麼叫其他犯罪形態的相結合?譬如說我們組織犯罪防制條例我們所司法的美國RECORD法案"},{"start":19713.703,"end":19731.261,"text":"RICO法案是你用組織犯罪犯下面什麼什麼罪的時候它的法定形式如何全面的調高而且用列舉式的方式非常清楚的把它列出來就不會有被想像淨和掉不會有被想像淨和掉的問題"},{"start":19732.418,"end":19750.968,"text":"那我必須要老實講說對於盧廷維委員他們所提出來的這個立法意旨我個人是贊成的你透過犯罪組織的方式來從事這樣子的行為他本來所會造成的危害就會比單獨犯跟偶然的聚合犯要高非常的多"},{"start":19752.069,"end":19778.242,"text":"因此加重他的法定期刑當然是有必要那只不過在立法的技術上面我或許可能私下會再跟羅委員或其他提案的委員討論做一個修正因為加重期刑是二分之一在我國實踐這麼多年快要變成一個笑話了什麼時候加重到二分之一啊就是往最低的法定期刑往上加一個月、加兩個月、加三個月大概都是這個樣子啦"},{"start":19779.663,"end":19804.67,"text":"這個加重起刑是二分之一完全是在法條文字上面欺騙社會大眾的條文因為根本就加不到二分之一實務上面的操作就是這個樣子所以站在法務主管機關的立場你們應該要清楚的告訴委員讓大家知道說在組織犯罪條例裡面那裡的規範我國的組織犯罪防制條例容我再講一次快要被架空了"},{"start":19805.852,"end":19826.404,"text":"幾乎都被想像進合掉了。實際上面適用那個組織犯罪防制條例的條文非常非常的少,導致你即使是用組織犯罪的方式來去構成某一個犯罪行為,根本不會有在理論上面,它應該要構成更重的法定型的法律效果。"},{"start":19828.137,"end":19847.399,"text":"如果說要從兒少性剝削防制條例這一次的修法活動開始徹底的去反省我過去在實務上面實踐所出現不合理的結果我覺得這是一個好的開始那如果是這個樣子的話我也希望法務部的同仁心胸要敞開一點"},{"start":19848.34,"end":19864.945,"text":"不要繼續單溺於過去那種錯誤的實務操作當中然後讓我們的錯誤繼續停留在過去的階段沒有辦法改正以上是我的意見謝謝好謝謝那我們41條之一就先保留我可以再講一下"},{"start":19866.314,"end":19871.097,"text":"就是說我也十分同意11條之一就是說我們以這個創意司法的這個這麼具體的個案來討論那這個組織性犯罪我覺得我們就是要跟組織犯罪條例不一樣這個不一樣我們絕對不能等同跟他一樣因為我們要懲罰的目的還有這個組織形態也不一樣"},{"start":19888.768,"end":19898.665,"text":"應該是說這個組織是講以盈利為目的的組織分工去經營性犯罪或性剝削這個影像販賣為主"},{"start":19901.089,"end":19920.464,"text":"它已經構成了公司經營的營利型態的組織和分工,那它的目的是要販賣這些犯罪的影像,因為像創意市場全部都是性犯罪,雖然不只是兒童還有大人也都是性犯罪影片,都已經違反法律,它如果是以這種東西來經營性犯罪或者是性剝削,不管兒童或大人的,如果裡面涉及到兒童的當然就在我們這個法條界定範圍裡面,那我們要處更重更重的處分,"},{"start":19932.253,"end":19948.638,"text":"而不是糾結在組織犯罪的條例裡面什麼叫組織犯罪要不要三人以上要不要從屬關係有沒有這個指揮監督的這個關係要怎麼證明而不是我們就要證明他是以盈利為目的有組織分工我點餐"},{"start":19951.079,"end":19953.061,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":19969.671,"end":19981.822,"text":"所以在這種狀況應該是要討論這個那要怎麼處分那要怎麼界定這個範疇大家應該是就這樣的概念一起來發想說條文應該怎麼定是比較完整和完善的"},{"start":19983.654,"end":20011.387,"text":"好來范委員還有沒有委員我有一個相關的樣態擔心是不是有漏掉因為這邊講的是組織形式的犯罪那另外就是因為根據那個國際經驗那現在一個所謂的網路誘拐行為那應該要被視為獨立於兒少性剝削的犯罪樣態可是我目前看不到那個范委員剛剛是第四十條我們先保留了你那邊是誘拐那剛剛"},{"start":20012.307,"end":20012.507,"text":"議員黃捷等"},{"start":20026.215,"end":20049.967,"text":"好謝謝來委員謝謝因為我是有提案的之一所以我還是要回應一下剛剛我很認同就是淑芬委員所提到的以盈利為方式但是我比較擔心我很認同之外可是我很擔心他使用到組織兩個字因為我現在就覺得好像我用組織兩個字不太好所以我想說是不是能夠修正"},{"start":20051.508,"end":20075.087,"text":"一人以上操作或者是兩人以上團體非個人所操作的情況之下多人營運模式就可判定這樣子的方式那就不要再陷入組織的這個文字的陷阱因為組織很難判定所以我希望說這個部分希望這個司法的部分能夠來做是不是這樣認定上會比較"},{"start":20077.389,"end":20081.53,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":20096.954,"end":20113.933,"text":""},{"start":20115.043,"end":20140.281,"text":"好,四十三條單純是配合三十九條的修正,在第一項、第二項,在援引第三十九條的內容裡頭調整是增加第一項、第二項的內容,就是它是配合三十九條的修正。好,那因為前面保留嘛,我們就一併保留。好,四十三條保留,來四十四條。"},{"start":20141.161,"end":20158.425,"text":"二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條條文修正草案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條條文修正草案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條條文修正草案。」案。二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒�"},{"start":20165.814,"end":20166.675,"text":"有委員要再補充說明嗎?"},{"start":20172.765,"end":20201.561,"text":"好來林委員抱歉喔主席雖然火車已經過了我突然想到就是說我們要不要在哪裡放上有一個教育的概念不是教育而這個孩子未成年喔教育檢審單位就是要求檢警審單位每年也要上課多少時數就是或是每個人都要受過幾個小時的這個教育訓練否則這些法官他們對這種事情都覺得這是看A片而已要看小孩子的A片我的意思是說很容易"},{"start":20202.341,"end":20226.411,"text":"我覺得觀念上要被教育啦再教育或是再教育減精神有沒有辦法我們也想一下放在哪裡就是讓每一個司法執法的人都必須要重新上課重新認識好那這個意見可能衛福部也幫忙想一下我們參考新西安犯罪防治法好來左胸好那是四條針對是四條來"},{"start":20230.077,"end":20230.397,"text":"陳昭智委員"},{"start":20251.485,"end":20272.535,"text":"好,林委員。好,呃,這邊提出來是無正當理由故意購買取得的話,還有違反第四章規定的網際網路內容提供的會員資格,並有適時主任他支付對價取得的這個影像,那除一年以下有期徒刑,均獲得一克罰金三萬到三十萬以下罰金。"},{"start":20274.929,"end":20298.528,"text":"好來林委員謝謝羅委員提醒我我一直在講說你從支付對價關難變成一個教唆指使但是創醫師裡面允許會員點餐那要放在哪裡是不是放在這裡第二項加一個點餐條款你從一個支付關看而已變成一個教唆指使這種狀態那要怎麼樣再更從重"},{"start":20302.551,"end":20309.813,"text":"委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":20323.086,"end":20344.9,"text":"而增加的部分我就再提醒一下就是說不只是他有對價他有可能就只是單純教說或者是他希望然後引起別人來完成他的任務他沒有支付於任何形式的虛擬幣或者是什麼他只是說他希望就他會引起一個團體式的"},{"start":20360.026,"end":20370.175,"text":"對,他只需要一個鼓勵,好人一生平等,你去慫恿嘛,所以我就覺得說,是不是放上慫恿教說都算,"},{"start":20371.38,"end":20387.475,"text":"而不是單純的要有對價因為有時候群體上的一個期待去讓這些人想符合這些被認同感進而去做出危害他人對不起我沒辦法接受"},{"start":20391.672,"end":20419.455,"text":"對啊可是但是我擔心就是衛福部他沒有說啊這個不對價會不會就是範圍很大什麼的可是我要跟你講這件事情很嚴重所以應該要好好的去審視這件事情因為一個團體但我很擔心就是他沒有他真的沒對價他只是單純的我加一我也想加一我也想加一我也想那會不會變成一個群體的一個期待感"},{"start":20420.902,"end":20449.715,"text":"這一種的加一很可惡所以我跟蘇委員我們都覺得真的是非常非常的希望在這一次的修法當中我們把這些連旁邊給予期待的人都應該要予以嚴懲那他就會擔心他不應該留這個言嘛就等於是用鍵盤就會殺人用鍵盤就會教唆他人這是很可怕的一件事情好來范雲委員"},{"start":20451.823,"end":20474.394,"text":"我想羅委員講這個好像可以歸在第四十條後面就是說以網際網路或其他方法散播傳送刊登或張貼足以引誘媒介暗示暗示鼓勵這些其他就是剛剛講的這個兒少性剝削的那是不是在四十條已經保留嗎文字上可以把這個部分放進去因為其實是最接近四十條的之一好還有沒有委員要針對這個提供意見"},{"start":20482.366,"end":20482.526,"text":"主席"},{"start":20494.205,"end":20505.83,"text":"第四十四條之一是包含在第四十四條裡,所以我們建議這個部分併第四十四條處理。今天早上也有聽到說有一些小孩他們的狀況,其實他並不了解說其實他這樣排斥放到群組裡面,他就其實已經犯法了。"},{"start":20518.014,"end":20522.176,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":20535.862,"end":20535.882,"text":"議員林岱樺"},{"start":20560.409,"end":20587.574,"text":"謝謝委員我補充一下為什麼我們要提出就是現在正在發生過去年修法之後的這樣一個現在進行式因為它的構成要件它都該當也就是說我們其實應該怎麼去區分剛剛各位委員提到的這些就是產業型的比如營利型的那還有就是這種組織犯罪型的這一期才是這次我們怎麼樣的去保護兒童不受性剝削的一個主要的一個立法的一個對象"},{"start":20588.694,"end":20605.471,"text":"但是我們都不要忘記了其實對於性的教育、性的認同、性的探索這些也都是每個人成長過程當中會有的將要忘記網絡時代這個應該要做明顯的區隔所以我們會建議說這次的修法應該著重在教育面"},{"start":20606.232,"end":20609.894,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":20625.945,"end":20644.998,"text":"刑法體系是一個整部的刑法體系。那我們要考量到比如說像這樣的情形是不是要等同於殺人十年以上起跳或者是五年以上那其實刑法其實法律是沒有顏色的也不會分大小的十四歲以上他就該負擔刑責我們有做到讓十四歲以下的孩子都知道"},{"start":20646.279,"end":20670.776,"text":"這一條線嗎?其實我們必須要扪心自問,因為我們都有孩子,那我們也身邊都有很多這樣的孩子,少年法院有很多這樣的孩子,那所以我必須要提出就是說防制少年不受性剝削是整個國際社會目前要齊頭併勁的地方,但是就是要考量到不要因為這次的創意私房這個類型的個案去影響到其他"},{"start":20671.516,"end":20671.536,"text":"議員林岱樺"},{"start":20702.643,"end":20725.588,"text":"這樣子一講我記得我們大部分這種行為都是成年人所以我現在講話要很小心那在這種狀況裡面我記得聯合報裡面有一個我們要不要討論一罪一罰這種事當然這樣很恐怖但是呢這裡有一個個案就是說這個有一個連台大都真是通過的人我看一下他犯了幾條"},{"start":20728.003,"end":20754.564,"text":"他透過通訊軟體交往網站欣賞,然後又騙81個少女自拍裸照傳送寄給同好,而且恐嚇部分被害人。然後這樣的81名累計的刑期超過百年,最後宣告執行刑期是6年。6年。那像這種樣態我們要怎麼規範?當然一罪一罰是要叫死人,因為"},{"start":20756.004,"end":20757.946,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":20770.768,"end":20797.393,"text":"那我們到底要怎麼設計?這個問題要放在哪裡?我想我們今天的討論就是讓委員可以把現在的確看到的外界關注的實務上面為什麼明明大家覺得應該要很重的又變得很輕那是修法的問題還是是判斷的問題還是是不敢去處罰的問題那所以今天我剛剛已經講過今天"},{"start":20799.42,"end":20817.375,"text":"在針對加重刑法的部分沒有辦法是立刻達成共識但是讓委員可以把你為什麼要這樣子提你看到了什麼是現在還沒有處理的盡可能的反應那法務部跟司法院接收到這些之後回去必須進一步研議"},{"start":20818.535,"end":20821.977,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案"},{"start":20844.366,"end":20844.386,"text":"第45條"},{"start":20860.811,"end":20865.437,"text":"二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":20880.154,"end":20893.081,"text":"刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及罰金增加。刑度及"},{"start":20904.748,"end":20934.22,"text":"我們參考其他的這個兒童福利的相關的還有這個社福的相關文字通常因為有限期改善所以後面的衛醫改善的話他通常都是用一個月以上一年以下這種來做停業的一個處分以上那接下來是不是請法務部跟司法院說明第二項到這個後面的這個罰金跟刑度的部分"},{"start":20937.531,"end":20937.811,"text":"法務部"},{"start":20959.167,"end":20981.798,"text":"在前面的條,我們像三十二條、三十三條那邊的話,它是屬於就是有從事到性交易的這一塊。那如果像四十五條就是沒有從事到性交易,只是它就是兒少的坐台陪酒,然後就是色情的伴遊、伴唱、伴舞,就是沒有涉及到所謂性交易的這一塊。因為涉及到性交易,那我們就是回到前面三十二條、三十三條。"},{"start":20982.458,"end":21008.148,"text":"那沒有涉及到這一塊就是純粹就是喝酒陪伴的這個部分呢會涉及到45條那涉及45條那我們是認為是說可能就是行為太讓的關係所以就是要有個區隔啦就是行度上要有區隔那至於基本上我們因為是過去的討論所以我們是維持這個衛福部的版本那委員的版本那我們也是尊重以上好那司法院有沒有意見"},{"start":21013.008,"end":21013.569,"text":"主法官主法官"},{"start":21041.813,"end":21065.498,"text":"本條的原第四項的規定是要加重其行為二分之一那剛剛國昌老師有提過這種立法例在司法實務上卻常出現加一個月也算加重其行的離譜狀況我後來了解好像這個非常的普遍因此我們有提出修正動議修正第四項意圖因應的犯罪形態等等法則"},{"start":21066.578,"end":21068.019,"text":"議員 還有沒有委員要表示意見?"},{"start":21102.14,"end":21125.613,"text":"第四十七條是這個罰則的部分那配合這個第三條我們修正增加一項就是違反第三條第七項規定拒絕妨礙或規避那其餘的項目是現行條文這個跟前面第三條有關是不是好"},{"start":21138.483,"end":21156.033,"text":"第七項是我們要主動巡查,他如果有拒絕、妨礙或規避,他要罰這個六到六十萬。好,那這個大家有沒有意見?如果沒有意見,我們就按照"},{"start":21157.722,"end":21161.406,"text":"五十條的部分目前也是這個條高罰緩然後我們建議是維持現行的這個條文五十條好來民俗分委員"},{"start":21182.575,"end":21197.122,"text":"這個對輔導教育我是打問號所以我在委員會質詢的時候一直問你們說這個輔導教育到底有沒有效委員我們現在討論五十條五十條請問委員還有沒有意見維持現行條文誰舉手委員沒有意見沒有意見那我們就維持現行條文"},{"start":21210.787,"end":21238.223,"text":"來,五十一條,林淑芬委員。就是說,債範率有多高?這個輔導教育到底有沒有用?這個問題我們真的是很好奇。那委員會問你們的時候,你們好像都回答不出來,那現在可以回答了嗎?有沒有用?那這個債範率有多高?好,我們就並回答。剛剛還有三位委員來,范雲委員、林月琴委員、黃捷委員。"},{"start":21239.123,"end":21265.565,"text":"我的版本是希望把原本就是犯這些相關刑罰的還要增加一個對其實施原本是四小時以上五十小時以下那我的版本是修正成八小時以上五十小時以下再增加一個案次處罰就是到參加為止否則他就是不來參加的話那你罰的錢就是什麼六千到三萬實在太少了"},{"start":21265.865,"end":21267.166,"text":"應加罰制其參加為止。"},{"start":21281.169,"end":21281.649,"text":"委員林岱群委員"},{"start":21298.848,"end":21328.49,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":21328.63,"end":21340.786,"text":"所以也希望說等下在做說明的時候讓我們了解一下,否則我們大概希望針對那個身心治療,以上。好,黃捷委員,再來李燕修委員,再來林淑芬委員、張雅琳委員。"},{"start":21341.82,"end":21368.726,"text":"好謝謝那我的提案裡面也有提到身心治療是因為現在的性侵害防治法裡面第二條第七條都有規定就是如果是違反性騷擾然後如果是強暴、脅迫、拍攝他人性影像等罪名依照他們的31條主管機關評估有必要都應該要讓加害人接受身心治療、輔導及教育也就是在性侵害"},{"start":21369.286,"end":21387.825,"text":"而性侵害防治法裏面有把身心治療放進去可是在兒少性剝削條例裏面目前的條文是沒有只有寫到輔導教育我覺得是不是應該要一致化然後來彌補過去立法上面有疏漏的地方所以我也建議這個身心治療是不是應該要加入謝謝"},{"start":21389.79,"end":21390.31,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":21405.422,"end":21406.423,"text":"閱讀及評估後再加一個心理治療。"},{"start":21424.343,"end":21427.824,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":21445.93,"end":21449.313,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":21462.745,"end":21462.765,"text":"議員林岱樺"},{"start":21488.683,"end":21507.086,"text":"好來林淑芬委員我剛剛問你說有沒有效他再犯率是多少拿出統計給我們看以外那我現在就在講說第一項裡面最大的問題就是這些都已經是判決有罪的人而且或者是他是有罪但是是還起訴的"},{"start":21507.947,"end":21524.37,"text":"那這些人你要幾個小時才過已經是一個問題了嘛到最後一項你不正當理由他也不來上課也才罰六千到三萬元而已所以我覺得這個層次就是說有沒有效可不可以預防再犯但是"},{"start":21525.251,"end":21549.14,"text":"當他不上課的時候這些已經犯罪而且有犯罪事實的這些人竟然裁罰六千元到三萬元以下所以我在講兩個層次第一個一定要強制執行不管是強制教育或是強制治療第二個一定要加重處罰這個已經是各位這個條件是還起訴和被判有罪的人"},{"start":21551.265,"end":21555.994,"text":"所以我在這裡口頭動議光是最後一項都不可以只是這樣。"},{"start":21559.96,"end":21587.933,"text":"好,那我的版本最主要是因為要公開其姓名,因為根據《兒少權法》第49條及第97條,對,就是政府本來就對兒少犯罪者可以選擇公告他的姓名,所以我在這個法條裡面就加入了必要時得公開其姓名或名字,因為現在我也知道說,現在有一些犯兒少權法的這些相關的犯罪者,其實是由各縣市來政府來公佈,可是我真的只有查到台北市有啦。"},{"start":21588.653,"end":21589.814,"text":"請問各位委員對於第51條還有沒有要補充?"},{"start":21613.609,"end":21613.689,"text":"委員的意見"},{"start":21624.404,"end":21644.84,"text":"朝委大院各位委員還有各位官員大家好這是衛福部心理健康司僅針對剛剛委員們提到的身心治療的相關科學數據來做一些補充首先因為去年有修法所以去年衛福部在6月19號一路到今年4月針對身心治療相關的這個方案證據就開始做了"},{"start":21645.14,"end":21671.537,"text":"况部會還有跨專業的研擬包含司法精神醫學會精神醫學會還有犯罪防治的相關學者專家及學會在此跟各位報告幾件事情蠻多委員在質詢的時候都有問到說是否可以比照毒品緩起訴或者是酒駕緩起訴來做相關的強制治療那跟各位人報告我們專家學者的研擬如下在毒品的緩起訴的治療方面有完成治療的跟單純監禁的"},{"start":21672.878,"end":21696.784,"text":"它的災犯率,五年災犯率可以下降50%,所以絕對的支持毒品擴大治療。第二個部分是酒駕緩起訴。衛福部的數據是,酒駕的累犯有高達三分之二是酒癮。所以經過緩起訴附帶健癮治療之後,它的一年內的災犯率是從18%下降到9%,有充分的證據。接下來要跟各位報告關於兒童性剝削相關的治療的證據,專家學者的意見。"},{"start":21698.644,"end":21715.755,"text":"目前兒少性剝削的相關的治療以最新的文獻2023的發表包含了一千七百多位兒少性剝削的犯罪者目前的所有治療不管是認知行為治療、動力治療、這個預防復發、冬季式誤談等等其實都是沒有效果所以關於這一點"},{"start":21716.676,"end":21721.458,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":21735.623,"end":21756.988,"text":""},{"start":21757.068,"end":21772.319,"text":"他事實上也在2019年發表了他這個是匿名的針對主動來求助的所謂戀童癖患者來做治療他總共治療了53位去對比另外22位未經治療者可是在2019年他的文獻發表"},{"start":21773.3,"end":21799.261,"text":"它的十四項再犯指標都是無效,這個也確定的登在醫學期刊正式的發表。所以在此也懇請各位委員能夠參佐以上專業學協會還有衛生福利部的意見,是否能夠在第五十一條的部分,針對這個強拍的部分納入性侵害犯罪防治法加強身心治療。以上補充,謝謝。好,謝謝市長的說明。來,林淑芬委員。"},{"start":21801.178,"end":21826.733,"text":"主席沒有回答到那這個都是國際上外國的研究他不是台灣本土的研究第一個第二個呢我就說不要談強制治療這裡講的是輔導教育輔導教育怎麼去跟強制治療比當然你會說比較高強度的強制治療都沒有用了那所以我們回過頭來輔導教育有用嗎第一個第二個我現在問的問題是說你們有沒有統計因為就只是統計"},{"start":21827.754,"end":21845.88,"text":"又不是叫你們去做行為模式的這個研究學術化的專業的研究到底再犯率有多高從頭到尾從委員會質詢到現在審法案你們都沒有回答我說這個這些犯罪者他們再犯率有多高"},{"start":21847.12,"end":21847.26,"text":"主席"},{"start":21869.033,"end":21886.361,"text":"對,所以他需要一些時間,我坦白說。然後再來就是說,對於這個,我們把那個生育治療跟父老教育的確做了一個層次的一個處理。我們在去年修法的時候,把一些重罪,把一些重罪回應到這一類的這個他的這個行為。"},{"start":21889.582,"end":21919.565,"text":""},{"start":21919.565,"end":21920.887,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":21937.566,"end":21966.029,"text":"在兒童、少年權益的保障還有對於新興科技犯罪的認識那第三個我們去強調健康的性觀念跟安全性行為第四個強調自我探索跟人我關係以及同理心的訓練就這個是我們在對行為人的輔導教育的五大面向做這個四小時到五十小時這樣的一個處理以上做說明"},{"start":21967.165,"end":21995.097,"text":"好,來,那個剛剛林月琴委員、范雲委員還有林淑芬、還有李燕秀委員。真的用書很驚訝,是李先生?不好意思,如果這樣聽起來我很擔心,就是上課,上課有效嗎?這樣的輔導教育坦白講,我認為沒有任何治療效果,而且上了50小時。就正如剛才燕秀委員有提到,坐在那邊就聽嘛,聽了然後要播放,"},{"start":21995.717,"end":22013.302,"text":"我覺得這個沒有辦法去改變你跟我講法規很重他控制不了他自己身心狀況的時候他還是去就範所以我認為還是要去做身心治療這樣子會是比較妥適的而不是只有上課因為我聽起來輔導教育的剛剛這樣的說明就是上課以上"},{"start":22015.427,"end":22031.219,"text":"那我講一下我是蠻驚訝衛福部還沒有把那個統計做好啦然後就是說也無法了解像剛剛李燕秀委員提供的那個德國的經驗嗎那那可能只是那你們說他那個對治療戀童並沒有用但是那可能是"},{"start":22032.039,"end":22057.03,"text":"閱讀之一,國內總是有學者專家,對國外的這些研究比較,我們如果自己沒有做研究,那學者專家至少可以快速去了解各國的研究好嗎?要不然我們好像是瞎子摸象,不知道是要增加輔導教育,還是增加身心治療,還是其他的方法。那我是建議這個,這條是不是先保留,那衛福部是不是可以緊急把你們的統計,剛剛林淑芬委員講的,你至少先跑出來,然後也請教。"},{"start":22058.41,"end":22075.317,"text":"國內的學者專家對國外相關的這個有效的處理方式,譬如說教育的內容,因為剛聽到你講教育內容,好像也沒有針對兒少啊,你講的是什麼人我界限其他的,沒有針對兒少的部分。抱歉我剛說明不夠清楚,所以在此跟各位委員報告,"},{"start":22076.437,"end":22079.621,"text":"二、委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」"},{"start":22091.594,"end":22091.614,"text":"議員黃捷"},{"start":22107.253,"end":22132.354,"text":"之前說為什麼國內數據剛剛張學文司長有報告過說目前數據在保護室他目前正在跑他一定會呈給各位委員但心理健康司這邊要補充報告的是說身心治療國外的所有的統計數據包含國內的重要的專家學者全部都徵詢過從去年的6月19號開始到上個月那目前針對身心治療對於兒少性剝削的再犯率"},{"start":22132.654,"end":22147.083,"text":"目前沒有有效的證據所以他們才會請我在這裡提出來請各位委員所參佐那第二個部分是要跟委員報告的是說在2020年的11月21號當時的兒童健康聯盟跟台灣兒科醫學會"},{"start":22148.704,"end":22170.194,"text":"就針對整個兒少性剝削的所有犯罪預防而受害者及害者處遇做一個完整的國際文獻的回顧當中有三項重要的決議一個是希望誘拐未成年未來能夠加強教育第二個部分就是今天委員很多提到的是圖像的處理第三個部分是關於司法法制處遇"},{"start":22171.254,"end":22171.634,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":22189.634,"end":22193.659,"text":"身心治療可以預防兒少性剝削的再犯"},{"start":22203.39,"end":22230.656,"text":"好 謝謝補充說明 來李燕修委員好 我就拿一個個案黃子佼這個個案以現行的輔導教育來說你告訴黃子佼兒少性剝削法的內容有沒有意義有沒有辦法治療這就是我強調有效的心理治療是很重要的不管國外的文獻是什麼它可能是之一、之二難道我們因為文獻不足我們什麼都不做了嗎"},{"start":22231.929,"end":22248.172,"text":"我覺得這個不是衛福部應該說出來的方法我們應該想辦法去跟這些人想辦法找一些學會心理治療師我們有效的去累積更多的數據我們來看看後續可以做什麼樣的處理難道全世界對於這些"},{"start":22249.213,"end":22254.256,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":22271.286,"end":22276.993,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":22287.324,"end":22289.085,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":22318.997,"end":22338.006,"text":"這觀念上面會有幾個必須要去做澄清的現在是我們現在所提的這一些大家主張說不管是要做輔導教育或者是說要強制治療、身心治療這些其實它是不同的態樣這個犯罪的態樣"},{"start":22340.387,"end":22366.138,"text":"那這些不同犯罪態樣有一些是這樣子他本身不太清楚說這樣子是犯罪的因為我們過去在這兒少性剝削的影像的這部分的話過去連持有都沒有入罪所以有許多的人可能不認為說他是一個犯罪的行為這一類的話輔導教育是有效的"},{"start":22367.799,"end":22375.263,"text":"他被罰之後,你又說你這個什麼不可以做、什麼不可以做。他再犯的機會就會減少。這一類的人。"},{"start":22378.505,"end":22398.511,"text":"第二類的人,如果說他還是一直在犯,這個就會落入到跟性侵害類似的。性侵害犯罪犯罪人,當他出獄之後,服案刑期之後的話,會有就是說可能會進入到所謂的生性治療的這一個部分。"},{"start":22399.161,"end":22427.008,"text":"但是這些身心治療有一些是會有效但是我們所知道的如果他累次就是說是一個累犯的話治療對他無效那一種個案的話要處理的話就是要做電子監控等等這些要用司法的方式去做處理而不是說交由醫學因為醫學上已經沒有好的治療方法了"},{"start":22427.765,"end":22428.627,"text":"反社會人格違常"},{"start":22441.075,"end":22468.183,"text":"這不可以啦!它有一點點已經上癮了,你再怎麼治療也不太有效。所以最好的話就是變成社區行為監控。這是最有效的,大概是這個樣子。而不是一直讓醫學界要去找出那個方法。其實全世界這個方法都已經找過,都沒有什麼效果。"},{"start":22469.103,"end":22476.911,"text":"我們難道還要再浪費資源在這些人身上嗎?應該是從另外一個角度去看"},{"start":22480.165,"end":22504.479,"text":"好 謝謝部長的說明這一個部分我想這個委員還要繼續發言我想大家已經理解大家的意思那衛福部的意思大概也不是不處理啦他是很務實的告訴大家如果針對很特殊的這一種反社會人格在醫學上面已經證實他是沒有辦法有效的有效的處遇所以最終"},{"start":22505.299,"end":22528.626,"text":""},{"start":22529.006,"end":22529.206,"text":"請勿模仿"},{"start":22546.198,"end":22567.011,"text":"就是說因為剛剛其實我有講就是說因為其實剛剛已經聽得非常清楚就是身心治療可能對於一些已經沒救的人是對是沒有用的那所以我在這一條其實加入了必要時得公開其姓名或名稱但剛剛好像也沒有聽到回應這樣子對我們是不是可以更強制性的因為你們剛剛也有講嘛就是社會社區性監控嘛可是我們現在根本不知道去哪裡找到這個人是不是有問題啊"},{"start":22568.252,"end":22596.599,"text":"對阿,所以這個部分是不是可以把它放,不然就可以就這一點來表示意見,謝謝。好,針對林委員提的這個部分,我們在一百零四年一月剛修過,就一百零四年那個時候,之前一百零四年以前這個法案的名稱叫做《兒童及少年性教育防制條例》,那在一百零四年一月二十三號三讀通過的名稱叫做《性剝削防制條例》,就在那一次的修法裡頭,"},{"start":22597.839,"end":22613.321,"text":"原先的條文三四條他有很清楚的明定主管機關要對這個行為人的姓名要公告以及照片還有判決的要旨在三讀的時候呢大院呢"},{"start":22614.162,"end":22640.241,"text":"繼於人權意識的考量同時他相較於性侵害犯罪防治法他採取的這個性侵害犯罪防治法更嚴他採取的是一種被動查詢他不是主動公告那基於比例原則比例這個依本條例的公告行為這個行為人的照片似乎就不符合這個比例原則所以"},{"start":22640.641,"end":22660.177,"text":"在當年一百零四年的一月二十三號三讀條文的時候把這一條做了一個刪除那以上說明那這是也是立法院三讀通過的刪除是在一百零四年的一月二十三修正條文裡頭"},{"start":22661.519,"end":22661.659,"text":"閱讀委員參考"},{"start":22673.689,"end":22696.992,"text":"部長所談的概念是說我們就對輔導教育有效的或是防治強制治療有效的我們先來處理這樣子那當然他也可以不去上課啊他也可以不上課啊你看這些都已經被證明有罪的有事實犯罪事實的人他不去上課罰六千元而已所以我的意思是說剛剛燕秀說他一萬到五萬我也覺得太少太低"},{"start":22698.112,"end":22719.723,"text":"我覺得還要再重罰,至少要三萬五萬元起跳,第一個。第二個,這個剛才因為司長在講說,這個你那個叫什麼,性侵害,你是被動的查詢,可以查到那個當事人這個加害者的照片姓名什麼,被動查詢式的。"},{"start":22720.441,"end":22737.611,"text":"但是呢,你以為兒少性剝削的侵犯的這個狀態沒有程度,它沒有比性侵害還更高,那可不一定啊。我的意思是說,在聯合報前幾天的報導不是有講有一個九歲被偷拍的人,"},{"start":22738.291,"end":22743.593,"text":"到現在他已經成年了他的影片還是會被搜尋到他在講說什麼時候我可以不用再這樣被看見他是一輩子的性侵害當然也是一輩子可是他不斷的被觀看可能是一輩子的永遠的所以這個侵害的程度上不見得是比較輕的我覺得是這樣子啦"},{"start":22762.68,"end":22765.041,"text":"而至於要公告行為人的姓名和照片,"},{"start":22782.526,"end":22784.847,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":22812.274,"end":22828.37,"text":"五十一條之一就併五十一條也是在講聲音治療輔導教育的這個內容他要成立評估小組好那我們就併到五十一條之一我們就不修訂就是內容就併到五十條一併討論"},{"start":22830.786,"end":22831.126,"text":"五十三條之一"},{"start":22853.237,"end":22859.321,"text":"五十三條之一維持現行條文,有沒有委員有意見?沒有意見的話,五十三條之一維持現行條文。謝謝大家,我們已經走完一輪了。我們回過頭來。"},{"start":22881.206,"end":22904.506,"text":"我們回過頭來處理前面的那個保留的條文從第二條開始來第二條第二條這個在第二第二項我們增加了對重置的一個說明就是第二項第二項是第二項"},{"start":22907.365,"end":22907.385,"text":"市長請說來。"},{"start":22927.655,"end":22938.604,"text":"本條例所稱重置指的是為散佈、為脅迫他人或支付對價所為的重置行為。"},{"start":22959.113,"end":22975.408,"text":"所以,正面表列。好,你們就是新增加這個嗎?好,那第二條,那個,原來,呃,陳昭之委員,來。謝謝,這個,我們黨團有提出這個修正動議案第七,請大家看第七案齁。"},{"start":22977.959,"end":22980.24,"text":"於信相關而客觀上足以引起刺激或滿足性慾且無。"},{"start":22994.127,"end":23007.658,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條條文修正草案。」案。議員林岱樺"},{"start":23016.766,"end":23032.995,"text":""},{"start":23033.291,"end":23060.109,"text":"好,對不起,因為我覺得你的重製這兩個字齁,我覺得對於這個二次元創作啊,ACG這部分,他們有所謂的這個可能是仿一些卡通影片啊,這叫做二次創作。那所以你的重製的定義上,我會擔憂會跟這個ACG會有所抵觸到他們最重要的一個權益齁。我覺得,所以在我的版本當中,我們這邊是以說與性相關"},{"start":23061.59,"end":23080.989,"text":"公然陳列或販賣兒童、少年之性影像與性相關而客觀上足以引起性慾或羞恥以真人所繪製之色情圖畫及電池記錄生成之擬真色情的"},{"start":23083.68,"end":23095.778,"text":"當然剛剛也看到這個民眾黨有做這個修正動議我們樂見大家一起為了這個ACG來努力但是我不是說不禮貌但是我只是把我的擔憂說出來就是說這個"},{"start":23098.541,"end":23123.348,"text":"民眾黨所提出的一個版本它有所謂的藝術性我會擔心這個所謂的藝術的辨別在司法部門上它並沒辦法很充分的去客觀事實認定什麼叫藝術什麼叫做教學所以我這邊有提到的是以真人所繪製的色情圖畫意思就是繪製人物不能是有一個真人為模板去侵犯到人家的"},{"start":23124.188,"end":23150.385,"text":"這是絕對不行那電池記錄生成之擬偵射情圖化就是AI生成電池記錄這個用法是參考刑法的第十條稱電池記錄者為以電子記錄光學或其他相類的方式所製成而供電腦處理之記錄所以我想這個我知道會夫有準備要提出含釋但既然今天準備要修法我覺得就把這個錄法定義清楚"},{"start":23151.466,"end":23167.964,"text":"當然衛福部會跟我講犯罪的多樣性、多元性但我們也不覺得衛福部每一次都有辦法用函式去處理每一個樣態所以乾脆就是能夠把它入法定義如果沒有排除的話不排除也有可能會增加相關的爭議"},{"start":23172.222,"end":23172.422,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":23186.218,"end":23186.278,"text":"議員黃捷委員"},{"start":23206.943,"end":23227.429,"text":"好,我也是想要補充這個部分,因為其實這個之前iWIN的爭議,我們跟衛福部跟法務部其實都有很明確的把協調會的條文都已經列出來了,然後這個韓式也請他們發出了。但是如果照民眾黨的這個版本會有一個問題,因為其實我們會區分,就是那個圖像是不是擬真的。"},{"start":23228.149,"end":23251.998,"text":"就是如果它是擬真的我認為也不應該啦就是我們都很保障二次元的創作者的權益可是如果以你們的修正的條文啊就會變成說因為四字617號其實有分成硬蕊跟軟蕊的概念那你們看起來是就是說要排除硬蕊但是如果你們軟蕊也放進去的話會變成說如果它現在是一個擬真的兒少的性交的圖畫"},{"start":23253.599,"end":23274.597,"text":"是不是也被合法化了?我覺得這是一個蠻大的問題喔。所以我認為照你們的版本可能會有一個這樣的缺漏。那另外衛福部新加的這個重製的定義是不是跟制裁法的文字不太一樣?這是不是要請法務部說明一下?因為原本重製的定義是說印刷、複印、錄音、錄影、攝影、筆錄或是其他方式"},{"start":23279.401,"end":23283.824,"text":"此外,若你寫的這句紅字本條文所稱的重置只是散佈或脅迫他人或支付對價的重置行為,那是不是就排除掉我們一開始想說的下載呢?"},{"start":23302.536,"end":23310.597,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":23330.353,"end":23353.222,"text":"好,那還有沒有其他的問題,針對第二條,第二條。委員一併反應完,我們一併請衛福部來解釋說明。好,如果沒有,那我們請衛福部來說明,來請。好,那有關於重置齁,我們現在寫的這個第二項齁,是因為早上我們大家討論嘛。那本來重置指的就是下載,齁,都算嘛。但,但是現在會變成說範圍過大。"},{"start":23358.41,"end":23373.561,"text":"無故的話我早上有說明過你如果是無故的話就沒有正當理由去做重置嘛這時候只有要這一個去做這一個動作的下展的人去舉證說我這個是有特別的原因的"},{"start":23374.68,"end":23393.711,"text":"那這樣子的話仍然沒有辦法去排除早上在舉例的時候在LINE裡面的話大家傳這些小朋友他們傳來傳去這每一個都重置都有問題我還是建議說我們這條是不是保留因為部長的理解跟我們了解的上次的那個刑法的成人性影像的那個無故下載"},{"start":23394.531,"end":23411.954,"text":"對。對。對。"},{"start":23412.034,"end":23432.96,"text":"大概問題在這。現在我們講的是兒少比成人還嚴重。因為你如果知道是兒少你還下載就是犯罪行為啊。但是早上在談的就是小朋友中間也是穿來穿去。他說他不知道青少年本來就會有少事法會去處理了。對不對?不是這樣子。我們現在真的是成年人知道是兒少下載。你不能說講到少事法的這個"},{"start":23434.64,"end":23438.783,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":23455.533,"end":23479.975,"text":"請允許我再說一次我們黨團的大家的共同意見,就是我剛剛提到的那個部分是要四個要件同時存在,四個要件,一個與性相關,客觀上足以引起刺激或滿足性慾,而且第三個沒有藝術醫學或教育價值,第四個令一般人感覺不堪承認等等,就是四個條件,任何一個條件它不成立不存在的時候,這個條文就"},{"start":23481.576,"end":23503.452,"text":"就是無效,就是我必須說明我們黨團的立場是這樣,我們覺得那個完整性是足夠的,謝謝。來,部長。讓我把話講。對,讓部長完整論述完,委員再發言好了。因為現在第二條大家有意見是兩個,一個就是重製的定義,那這是我們提出來的建議,那當然我們也可以不接受,回到那個"},{"start":23505.513,"end":23530.326,"text":"告知法還是刑法這個我們沒有意見只是早上大家在討論的時候認為如果行為是只是重置就通通會變成是要處罰的對象的時候會不會範圍過廣所以我們是說建議的提出來這個建議條文是說就適度的把它限縮這是第一個"},{"start":23531.647,"end":23553.124,"text":"第二個那個民眾黨所提出來的這個條文,其實他是大法官釋字第617號的解釋的內容。那這個部分的話,我們建議如果可以的話,我們就把它的那個大法官的解釋的條文的最重要的內容。"},{"start":23553.584,"end":23554.264,"text":"告告告告告告"},{"start":23577.316,"end":23586.969,"text":"主席可不可以請法務部說明這個跟刑法第319之三條針對成年人的性私密影像的重置可以給他不同的文字嗎?"},{"start":23589.842,"end":23590.063,"text":"法務部"},{"start":23609.5,"end":23612.483,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":23632.143,"end":23653.674,"text":"此行為的可責性要高一點,所以當時在行政院修法的過程當中,我們就特別設了這一個項,就是說未經他們同意,無故怎麼樣怎麼樣,那一個是專門就是針對這種合一拍攝,那重置的這兩個字呢,當時也是經過一番的討論。"},{"start":23654.774,"end":23670.348,"text":"繼而政策決定還是把重製放進去。那基本上重製這兩個字其實最早是來自於著作權法,沒有錯。那它其實就是重複的一個製作的動作,所以叫做重製。那早上我想衛福部早有有跟我來討論這個相次啦。"},{"start":23672.049,"end":23701.051,"text":"那實在是因為有一些有委員來找我們討論就是說那如果把重置現在這樣子規定到兒童性剝削裡面的話那例如說就是今天一群都國小生、國中生他們都成一成一個賴的群組了然後可能不曉得有一個什麼樣的性影像傳到這個群組裡面那A同學他根本不想看可是其實他的手機已經收到這個訊息那時候就問我們說那他有沒有持有有沒有重置"},{"start":23701.852,"end":23724.946,"text":"其實因為現在在數位的這個科技技術底下持有跟重置幾乎是等同但是這個是我只能說這個是因為科技技術那這樣在這種賴的群組裡面確實都有可能所以說當時就是為了有委員提出這樣的建議那衛福部他們也是希望說不要就是造成就是"},{"start":23725.666,"end":23726.086,"text":"法務部有否更好的建議?"},{"start":23754.289,"end":23754.629,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":23778.17,"end":23800.997,"text":"我們在這一條的第二項定義這個重置就是指兒童及少年性剝削在這一條這個法法裡頭講的重置講的就是這個就跟剛才講的這個著作權的那個重置就區隔對就區隔所以在體力上的處理是不是可以我們只要在這邊明定這邊重置的定義其實就不會有混淆的問題是不是"},{"start":23801.758,"end":23822.636,"text":"就法律上是不是?法務部。是。我們現在基本上在各個法規裡面在像例如說性侵害犯罪防治法它會針對性侵害犯罪這五個字做一個定義。對。就像我們的犯罪被害人保護權益保障法我們會針對犯罪被害人五個字做一個定義。那我們所以說基本上只要它在"},{"start":23823.337,"end":23833.002,"text":"我們的法這種特別法它在定義裡面做就是說針對這個字例如說現在我針對重製這兩個字就寫下了這樣子的一個定義所以它這邊有下面寫本條例所稱重製所以這個變成這個條這個這個項規定下去之後這個重製這兩個字的就是只要在這一個條例裡面出現的重製這兩個字它的範圍就會限制在這個地方就會回到這個定義對"},{"start":23848.169,"end":23860.761,"text":"那我們也會去做一個宣導就是說如果這個法就這樣過了以後我們也會提醒檢察官說這個定義要記得回來這邊看不能夠再用過去的定義去解釋這樣子了解好來羅廷惠委員"},{"start":23862.186,"end":23866.667,"text":"因為剛才布朗已經特別講說如果我們要排除二次元包括回應民眾黨黨團提的那個文字我們為什麼沒有接受民眾黨黨團的文字原因是因為第"},{"start":23891.394,"end":23910.343,"text":"第二條、第一項、第三款的這個文字就是與性相關而客觀上足以很長的那一段話是刑法的文字。如果在這裡我要把它改成民眾黨或者是羅委員的版本,那請問刑法要不要改?"},{"start":23910.683,"end":23936.542,"text":"它會有一個相稱性我的版本跟民眾黨不一樣啊對對我知道我的意思是說同樣的意思但是為了要排除二次元的這個部分我們目前是寫在說明欄特別寫在說明欄就麻煩委員們看這個大本的第一頁的右下角倒數第四行開始就是說第一項第三款所稱的圖畫"},{"start":23938.243,"end":23953.848,"text":"指的是生成式的人工智慧製造、擬真、繪製或是以真人實際存在、真實存在的兒童或少年作為創作背景的色情圖畫為線。"},{"start":23956.489,"end":23979.266,"text":"已經說得很清楚以及我們還後面說其餘的跟性相關而客觀上足以引起性慾或羞恥的圖畫仍然有刑法二、三、五條的規定同時呢也要按照兒童及少年福利與權益保障法的46條規定採取明確可行的防護措施這邊寫清楚那剛才布朗也特別講說如果這裡這樣子寫都不夠"},{"start":23984.89,"end":24012.09,"text":"要在我們的法條裡頭再加一個說明這第三項說明本條力所稱的圖畫指的是什麼什麼我們也接受但是相較如果放在說明欄它的彈性就將來有一些狀況的時候它的解釋的彈性存在可是如果你把它載明在法條文字裡面它就寫死就是相較它沒有那麼大的彈性以上說明"},{"start":24012.85,"end":24013.23,"text":"主席"},{"start":24030.202,"end":24032.604,"text":"會真的要給主管機關一點點彈性因為現在變動太大了你什麼都要寫死就是我們立法院就要一再的修法但是如果賦予主管機關一定的這個行政的權限他可以彈性去處理這個或許是在兼顧兩邊"},{"start":24044.972,"end":24073.892,"text":"我覺得還蠻合理的一個做法了。好,謝謝司長這樣一個見解。好,來委員請。我還是沒有辦法接受這個跟成年人的性私密影像的重置定義差異這麼大。那因為我們今天法條真的審了好久。那我擔心說這樣就通過之後,就是是不是能夠保留讓大家在文字上,因為某些部分大家都很有共識嘛。那還不清楚的部分大家再回去各自斟酌思考一下,好嗎?好,OK。"},{"start":24074.363,"end":24076.189,"text":"好來林岱請問然後蔡易瑜委員"},{"start":24079.085,"end":24105.138,"text":"大概條文說明這邊也想就教的,就是說這個寫的是說以真實存在的兒童或少年為創作背景的色情圖畫,是要我一個林岱琴存在的這個人的影像,還是事實上是跟人,我們當初很反對事實上是AI這樣的狀況,已經是跟人已經達到完全事實上是類似,不知道你這樣的解釋是否事實上是清楚的,以上。"},{"start":24110.767,"end":24135.8,"text":"來先參議員、羅廷樂委員還有詹阿林委員首先齁我反對我們在兒少性剝削條例去創造跟母法或跟其他法律定義不同的名詞這個未來在法律的一個適用上被扁是從事的行為那我從事少年人、老年人的性影像"},{"start":24137.714,"end":24158.225,"text":"就跟我重置兒少的性影像要有不同的定義。如果這個兒少他幾歲不知道,那我這個犯罪行為我還要先知道說我這個重置的人是幾歲。這個是一個很奇怪的狀況,大家去思考一下。所以我們寧可再發明一個新的名詞。"},{"start":24160.395,"end":24175.665,"text":"我們不能去說變變是重置,然後這個重置在其他在刑法上都已經有它的定義的時候,然後我們說我們在兒少性剝削的重置它的概念是不同的,這件事情未來這個體力的適用會大亂。"},{"start":24178.499,"end":24201.075,"text":"這個我覺得,因為我們知道說法律定了,未來就會有人犯罪,有人犯罪他就會去找律師要去辯護,他辯護方向一定會像我這樣辯護啊。我就是不知道我是這樣重製的啊,我怎麼知道我這種重製是變成兒少性剝削,我的重製我是要刑法的重製,我又不是要做兒少性剝削的重製。"},{"start":24203.373,"end":24209.957,"text":"啊這個這樣就亂掉了啦,重製就是重製。為什麼重製在兒童性剝削的時候就是有對價關係,然後再單純的重製就不用對價關係,這有什麼得力啊。"},{"start":24217.208,"end":24245.282,"text":"第二個就是說我想因為這一次在討論兒童性剝削當然有涉及到圖畫然後這陣子就會有所謂二次元的問題那後來我們是希望在修正條文以及未來衛福部願意說韓式的部分把它法條把圖畫這兩件事把它定義清楚那當然說我們在討論的過程中針對這種AI超級擬真雖然他沒有以真人為背景但是他用AI做出來的"},{"start":24246.258,"end":24271.819,"text":"基本上和真人幾乎一樣,和真人幾乎一樣,而且無法判斷到底有沒有這個人。你如果說以真人為背景就是有這個人,那有這個人他當然會,有真人他就會跳出來說,啊你怎麼可以為我的銀子,你為我這樣,這個是有真人為背景。那如果A案的話你看不出來,可是他畫出一個很像仿真的,那既然他仿真,有可能他真的有這個人,只是這個人不知道。"},{"start":24273.667,"end":24295.252,"text":"只是這一個人不知道,所以我們認為AI的狀況因為已經反昇到我們無法落眼去判斷到底有沒有這一個實際的人的存在的情況之下,那這部分必須要有所限制,因為他有可能已經生死侵害到了部分落在哪裡的一個小朋友,只是我們不知道而已。"},{"start":24296.508,"end":24312.823,"text":"所以這部分是必須我們在當時討論的時候會認為說這部分還是要有所管制所以我們認為說在這個修正條文的一個說明已經足夠那當然民眾黨有提出說那我們是不是把617所謂硬蕊軟蕊的概念把它入法化"},{"start":24313.524,"end":24334.645,"text":"那我覺得如果要處理這件事的話應該回到刑法235條因為235條就是所謂散播違憲物品那如果散播違憲物品的這個行為需要被檢討的需要用大法官解釋硬蕊、軟蕊去把它做實際的檢討那我想散播違憲物品這件事如果有罪"},{"start":24336.156,"end":24364.249,"text":"如果是有罪然後需要被定義的話應該回到刑法去定義那在刑法的部分就是把散播猥褻物那猥褻物就再把民眾黨的這種這個大法官617號解釋的文字入法化是比較好的不然就等於說伯伯又散播猥褻物品那我在散播成人的猥褻物品也是不對的啊一樣有刑法的罰則啊但是我在散播行人猥褻物品跟散播兒少的猥褻物品"},{"start":24365.47,"end":24376.622,"text":"同樣的狀況,然後就法條的文字概念又不一樣,這樣不好。所以我覺得在處理條文的時候,我們還是要系統性的去看整個條文的一個架構好不好。好,謝謝。剛剛還有哪位委員要發言?來,羅委員。"},{"start":24382.728,"end":24412.197,"text":"好我覺得次長剛剛我講的就是電池紀錄深層之你真色情圖畫這個我就有參考刑法第十條我還是覺得原條文的定義就是在定義在第二條要修正也是修正在第二條還是希望能夠入法那依照我們的修正動議來做一個修正那我同意這個主席跟這個衛福部的說法要把我彈性但是現在我們的版本入法並沒有失去這樣子的彈性我們並不是把整個法條都拿掉而且就"},{"start":24412.617,"end":24435.31,"text":"就是因為之前衛福部想要擴大解釋,因為我記得你們保護司的司長有講的,就是擴大解釋,而造成爭議嘛,所以你們現在才要去這個函釋,現在要限縮應該是很合理的,所以我覺得既然你已經要準備函釋了,這個東西就應該把它錄法,所以我覺得我是很堅持這個,如果真的沒有的話,我希望經負協商。"},{"start":24438.078,"end":24460.982,"text":"好,來張委員。好,就是關於那個重製的定義的部分啊,我是覺得說我支持那個范瑀維的意見啦,我覺得我們可以再討論一下,因為的確我們是現實面上面,因為之前在做兒童人權教育的講師的時候,我真的遇到非常多的小孩,他們真的是不知道他今天把照片傳到群組裡面,他收到群組哦,就是有人把他傳到群組裡面,他收到,他其實就已經犯法了。"},{"start":24461.662,"end":24477.215,"text":"對,那其實對這樣子的孩子來說,他其實非常無辜的,那所以這個部分我覺得我們是要去保,但是我也同意大家說的,就他可能會造成在判刑的時候會有一些爭議,會有一些問題,所以這部分我們是不是可以保留在好好的仔細思考如何去用這一條這樣子好不好,謝謝。好,來部長再補充。"},{"start":24482.314,"end":24492.345,"text":"我稍微做一點補充,那刑法319條之三,它前面有一個條件就是未得他人同意。"},{"start":24495.985,"end":24519.843,"text":"但是在我們這邊的話就沒有這個條件為什麼?因為小孩子不會去同意這個而且他的同意對他本身是有傷害的這個同意是有問題的所以因為是這樣的所以基本上的重置跟刑法就不一樣在兒少性剝削條例裡面的重置就是不一樣了"},{"start":24522.193,"end":24534.359,"text":"我們之所以要去限縮的原因也是在這個地方,因為就如同剛剛張委員提到的,那就是孩子群組來都要傳來傳去,他就不知道說這樣就是緩緩了。"},{"start":24536.34,"end":24559.006,"text":"所以這才說可能需要做一點限縮因為在兒童及少年性剝削條例跟憲法的範疇要處理的對象是有不太一樣的地方所以我們才提出這樣子的一個就是說讓他的這一個所謂的重製行為前面有一個就是說他的目的性"},{"start":24560.046,"end":24582.373,"text":"如果是他為了這些目的而去做的話,那才是屬於我們要處罰的對象。不然的話,這一定會跟刑法是不同。這是第一個。那第二個,有關於那個圖畫,就是說兒少有關的這些性圖畫的問題。其實大家的意見並沒有差很多。"},{"start":24589.304,"end":24594.367,"text":"也就是說是依照大法官第617號的解釋為基礎只是說要把它放在說明"},{"start":24606.714,"end":24627.843,"text":"說明懶,讓行政機關有多一點的空間來做處理,還是說直接就入到法律去,讓他更為明確,這個是立法的技術的問題。我想這部分是可以討論的,如果說委員們認爲說,都是意見認爲說,還是放到法律裡面,那我們也不會反對。"},{"start":24629.484,"end":24648.199,"text":"條文的部分的話當然我們也可以來斟酌提供給大家做參考如果說大家覺得說這樣子的話會讓行政機關恐怕會有彈性不夠因為未來科技的發展會變成什麼樣子"},{"start":24652.281,"end":24675.494,"text":"這個不容易掌握的話那也許就是說先不入法然後我們先用韓式來做處理韓式的話如果可以與時俱進的再去增加或者是刪減這兩個方法其實對行政機關來講都可以接受啦就是說看看大院委員的大家的意見是怎麼樣多數意見是怎麼樣"},{"start":24680.32,"end":24709.264,"text":"謝謝部長的說明那我們第二條就先保留好不好這個大家回去再想一下好來第三條第三條我們有一個建議的修正條文那在第二項裡面我們就參考委員的這個建議然後我們也跟部分的這個部會做了一些討論我們有如列了第十三"},{"start":24709.964,"end":24714.406,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":24727.927,"end":24745.299,"text":""},{"start":24745.419,"end":24768.907,"text":"警察跟司法檢查這個要來做這個運用科技技術然後做主動查詢後來不讓指示那我們就直接寫中央主管機關我們來做那另外就是網路業者要做配合第七項以上說明是第六項改由中央主管機關來做"},{"start":24772.776,"end":24795.844,"text":"好,針對第三條這個衛福部重新提出的建議修正版本各位有沒有意見?好,來林岱請委員。好,這邊再提出來這邊跟我的有一些差異的是在於本來我是分裂主管機關跟設政主管機關當然中央跟地方要合併我沒有意見可是要注意到"},{"start":24796.664,"end":24818.169,"text":"只有行為人的輔導教育到甚至衛生主管機關都只有行為人的身心治療我覺得好像對被害人的一些協力事實上是沒有本來我的條文裡邊大概有寫到說對於被害人像衛生主管機關被害人的驗傷心理輔導跟身心治療"},{"start":24819.289,"end":24821.59,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案"},{"start":24838.336,"end":24863.797,"text":""},{"start":24863.897,"end":24866.638,"text":"閱讀委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":24884.986,"end":24901.422,"text":"而性剝削的犯罪預防而已,應該是要把它列清楚。不好意思,前面勞動主管機關的話應該是要加勞動權益維護及自立生活,然後頓耗其他相關事宜。"},{"start":24903.244,"end":24907.13,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":24919.508,"end":24937.58,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":24940.767,"end":24965.555,"text":"報導就查查兒少的性影像的嫌疑世界的技術跟資源相關事宜還是要把直接寫出來是他應該協助限制擷取直接把定出來以上大概就是我這邊的意見就是如果按照我這我對照下來我覺得欠缺的部分以上好請問委員還有沒有其他意見"},{"start":24967.492,"end":24993.274,"text":"如果沒有的話剛剛議事人員有提醒就是內政主管機關包含警政、移民、戶政因為你後面第五條又提到內政主管機關所以這邊是不是要把這幾個單位變成是內政主管機關然後下面再分立警政、移民、戶政就是體力就是一致這樣你後面都你第五條特別提到內政主管機關"},{"start":24995.205,"end":25000.565,"text":"那這個衛福部一併參考好不好?好那委員如果沒有其他意見請衛福部說明"},{"start":25002.864,"end":25032.109,"text":"那有關被害人輔助這一塊我們寫在主管機關的這個監督及其他相關事宜分號後面被害人保護輔助這個保護輔助的項目非常的廣、非常的大所以包括林委員在意的部分都在被害人的保護輔助事項裡頭所以這個部分沒有問題那後面涉及的相關部會可能就麻煩相關部會來做回應那勞動主管機關今天勞動部不曉得有沒有到"},{"start":25034.136,"end":25062.428,"text":"好,勞動主管機關剛才林委員提到那個自立生活基本上那個是社政做的我們就在放在保護生活輔助裡頭所以跟委員做這樣的溝通那至於內政主管機關我們是不是要在第第五條做修正因為其實這個內容警政主管機關跟移民主管機關因為他們都是機關所以我們比較尊重內政部的那個工作的執掌所以在這裡把它劃分清楚會比較好對"},{"start":25063.649,"end":25064.63,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":25080.951,"end":25097.289,"text":"先說明了教育機關的第三行有出現一個性影像防治教育這邊的治用的是治療的治不是反制的治到底用哪一個可能得稍微確認一下這是第一個另外就是第13款"},{"start":25098.69,"end":25113.768,"text":"他也有出現一個其他兒童及少年性剝削及性影像防制措施兩邊有同步一致性的問題然後我查詢了一家法規資料庫其實目前現行的法規還沒有出現過性影像防制"},{"start":25114.609,"end":25131.968,"text":"這樣的文字是不是可能第一次出現是不是可以更慎重一點因為在我來看在目前性剝削防制的條例裡頭的這個定義裡頭那個性影像的那塊應該也包含在性剝削的範圍內所以是不是要單獨列我覺得應該可以不用單獨列以上說明"},{"start":25133.069,"end":25155.462,"text":"教育部這邊還是沒有回應我剛剛講你這邊大概略宣導因為另外一個就第四條我也不同意你本來是寫課程還好又或教育宣導因為我對部裡面非常了解那個教育宣導就跑馬燈跑一跑那個跑幾小時就算等一下第四條那個兩小時就過了甚至趙蕙在口頭上講十分鐘累積了那個"},{"start":25156.423,"end":25164.571,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":25179.606,"end":25206.79,"text":"先說明通常我們用教育兩個字的時候它就會包含正式課程、非正式課程、潛在課程以及其他形式的宣導如果單獨只有兩個字的時候它的包含的範圍很廣第一個那如果你把教育及宣導的時候就是它跟原本的教育意思是一樣要加成及宣導也沒有關係那等一下第四條是不是我們就直接講課程連教育宣導這四個字都不可以入列"},{"start":25207.745,"end":25218.789,"text":"而那等下第四條我們再討論對可是那如果這樣的話我們這邊就寫防制教育就OK嗎是它涵蓋的面向課程非正式課程潛在課程宣導都涵括在內以上報告好謝謝來接下來"},{"start":25223.897,"end":25250.922,"text":"是,報告到大院,這個有關數位發展部針對第十款的部分做一個回應那剛剛委員有提到說有關第十款的技術資源要改為協助限制接取那限制限制接取的部分剛剛主席在八條之一的第七項已經有做過處理依照那個條文來做處理所以那個限制接取的協助部分已經有一個完整條文那另外一個就是說針對"},{"start":25254.143,"end":25270.752,"text":"遊戲軟體分級管理的部分,這個部分文字我們是沒有意見,但是負責跟產業溝通的數位產業所,因為有一些業界的反應意見,是不是適合在這個地方跟大院做一個說明?那這個部分我們產業所的所謂的軟體的分級部分。"},{"start":25271.853,"end":25281.664,"text":"是不是可以跟委員做一個報告表達一下產業界的意見主席還有各位委員本部數位產業署針對遊戲軟體分解的部分因為產業有一些反應我們簡單說明一下就是說"},{"start":25287.009,"end":25314.418,"text":"而第一個遊戲軟體分級管理的是依照兒少福利權益保障法44條第三項現在已經在執行的一個措施但是如果現在把它放到所謂的兒少性剝削條例的話呢產業是有點擔心說因為其實遊戲大部分都是以虛擬或二次元創作為主那其實他們擔心說如果放在這邊的話會不會讓他們覺得說好像這個是遊戲軟體是導致性剝削的一個主要的管道或原因這是他們比較擔心的部分所以我們是"},{"start":25315.339,"end":25325.754,"text":"或許可以考慮回到《兒少權益保障法》第3項處理,而不要放在性剝削條例裡面。以上說明。"},{"start":25329.025,"end":25330.967,"text":"通訊傳播主管機關"},{"start":25347.466,"end":25347.486,"text":"議員林岱樺"},{"start":25377.508,"end":25377.529,"text":"好。"},{"start":25380.307,"end":25407.616,"text":"好來接下來還有哪個部會要發言跟主席跟委員報告有關這個法務主管機關這一項那個委員有提到說希望能夠把徒刑執行期間治療及其他相關事宜列進來那請委員跟委員報告請委員參考我們本條例的第五十一條第二項這個前項輔導教育的執行主管機關得協調矯正機關與犯罪行為人服刑期間辦理"},{"start":25408.556,"end":25433.015,"text":"但是矯正機關應提供場地及必要的協助所以矯正機關的專業跟他們的執掌其實可能只有辦法提供場地跟必要協助至於這個治療跟其他相關事宜可能還是得衛福部提供這個專業的這個治療計畫或者是什麼我們是配合提供場地來協助以上好還有哪個部會"},{"start":25437.748,"end":25437.948,"text":"移民主管機關"},{"start":25466.38,"end":25472.87,"text":"沒有問題?不在?文化主管機關有來嗎?也沒來。經濟主管機關有來嗎?也沒有來。"},{"start":25484.52,"end":25514.082,"text":"那這個衛部部都有給相關主管機關看過這個法條嗎?他們有意見嗎?沒有?授權給你們?因為這個是林委員的提案那內容大致上是所在兒少性剝但是他的立法例我們參考性侵害犯罪防止法跟家庭暴力防止法好那就是這個部分你們也再給相關部會再確認一次好不好我們先保留原則上就是這樣的方向內容"},{"start":25514.571,"end":25515.172,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":25536.209,"end":25559.472,"text":"好 跟召集人及各位委員報告第四條的部分早上召集人有特別說明這個兒少性剝削防制教育是多麼的重要那我也深刻體認而且認同這件事情真的非常重要必須讓兒少從小認識同時教職員工以及家長也可能都需要做加強的宣導"},{"start":25560.593,"end":25588.915,"text":"所以我們非常認同那原本現行條文是說高級中等以下學校每學年應辦理兒少性剝削防制教育課程或教育宣導現行條文那我們也覺得要提高重視的程度有可能需要把每學年改成每學期來增加的頻率那至於兩小時的這個部分它等於在法律裡頭訂定課程的時數下限"},{"start":25589.756,"end":25601.372,"text":"我們有態度上比較謹慎一點點也進一步做盤點現行的各項法律裡頭對於課程有訂定時數下限的包含家庭教育法"},{"start":25603.726,"end":25625.813,"text":"環境教育法、性別平等教育法,這三部主要的教育法令都有訂定時數下限。另外,跟性侵害犯罪防治法還有淹害防治法,裡頭也都有針對課程時數下限的,說錯了,不是淹害防治法,是家庭暴力防治法。"},{"start":25626.633,"end":25651.936,"text":"那也有部分的法律是有訂定要納入課程但沒有明定時數下限像剛才講的煙害防治法、學校衛生法以及本法性剝削防制條例那我們的考慮是在現場的反應裡頭對於在法律條文當中明定時數會造成學校以及老師在安排課程上會造成課程的割裂並不容易統整做教學"},{"start":25652.677,"end":25666.247,"text":"以性犯罪防制條例防制教育跟性剝削防制教育來說兩個其實對於身體自主權的尊重以及自我保護的那一塊其實有高度的共通性"},{"start":25668.369,"end":25685.923,"text":"僅針對性剝削有特殊的犯罪的形態或者如何預防可能有些不同的做法可能是需要再加強的但如果明定時數就會造成課程的割裂會造成現場的困擾所以我們的建議是我們的優先建議是如果能不明定時數是不明定比較好"},{"start":25689.326,"end":25715.865,"text":"但尊重委員會的討論如果委員會建議要加至少兩小時那我們會希望是不要僅限於課程而是把現行條文的或教育宣導也能保留這個對於課程的實施或者活動的實施來講會多一點點的彈性那同時我們也建議在立法的說明裡頭增列相關的文字因為現行的性別平等教育法有規定"},{"start":25717.086,"end":25717.226,"text":"議員黃捷等"},{"start":25746.946,"end":25751.531,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":25770.209,"end":25785.8,"text":"閱讀委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。閱讀委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。閱讀委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。閱讀委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條條文修正草案案。閱讀委員林岱樺等20人�"},{"start":25798.969,"end":25809.18,"text":"就是幼兒園應對、教保相關人員、實施兒童及少年性剝削防制教育及宣導以上報告"},{"start":25810.168,"end":25837.734,"text":"好 來 請委員表示意見至於時數要不要 等一下也看其他委員意見不過我認為是把幾個字拿掉或教育宣導我覺得還是要訂課程對學生要執行那更何況如果是學生需要的話那教保人員就更不應該用宣導這兩個字所以還是一樣要執行所謂的實施兒童及少年性剝削防制課程"},{"start":25838.414,"end":25843.617,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":25863.749,"end":25876.002,"text":"兩併前後整併是不是文字修正然後能夠把它都不管是老師跟學生都要接受以上好還有沒有其他委員有意見好來范雲委員"},{"start":25877.77,"end":25894.278,"text":"針對時數的部分我還是覺得把至少兩小時放進去比較好啦因為現在性別平等教育法是那個四小時嘛那這邊就是說能夠有一個至少兩小時喔而且你們那個四小時已經被你們融入到不同的東西裡面了"},{"start":25896.463,"end":25916.991,"text":"是嗎?因為我們聽到的是融入了。那那個部分我們先不討論,我覺得這邊至少兩小時。因為主要是數位性犯罪真的非常的嚴重,對青少年的教育很重要。那所以我也蠻同意剛剛岳勤委員的,是不是不要把宣導放進來。你剛剛意思是說把防制課程在裡面,會比較真的能夠教育到。"},{"start":25917.671,"end":25937.818,"text":"那幼兒園只教教保人員我會有點點擔心啦就是說當然那個教材應該也要包含就是說性別角色身體界線那可是就是說你如果只有教教保人員可是現在那個兒少犯罪的程度是越來越小欸那原本的委員的意思應該是針對那個兒童"},{"start":25940.359,"end":25948.785,"text":"所以,教保委員本來就有很多的課,我們之前不是在教保條例的時候修過了嗎?那這邊是不是還是能夠回到那個幼兒園本身?好,那還有沒有其他委員針對第四條有意見?"},{"start":25958.223,"end":25962.825,"text":"委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":25980.013,"end":25995.282,"text":"而並不是能夠深植人心或是實際上有防範的一個方法而是只是不斷的放上標語這樣子我就會覺得說就算是200個小時的宣導也都沒有用因為那個跑馬燈一年365天都在跑也沒有用"},{"start":25995.922,"end":26022.132,"text":"所以我覺得這個部分應該要制定清楚就是它是一個課程那而且是至少要兩個小時那當然我也希望說不只是孩童幼稚園的孩童還有教保員就剛剛有所提到的包括他裡面的教職人員、董監事都應該去稍微去了解我這是有其必要性好謝謝羅委員那還有沒有其他委員要表示意見跟看法"},{"start":26023.51,"end":26047.372,"text":"好,那如果委員沒有其他意見的話,那個教育部委員還蠻有共識的。第一項的部分或教育宣導幾個字如果拿掉,就是我們剛才提到的在那個教育部在立法的補充說明的部分請委員可以支持我們把它放進去。那這樣我想我們將來還是可以就性別平等教育及性侵害法"},{"start":26048.012,"end":26076.622,"text":"犯罪防制教育等等做整合性的課程設計而不是時速疊加這第一個那第二個部分是在第三項有關幼兒園的部分剛剛有提到好像他是不是要擴及到幼兒幼兒之前請大家討論因為早上我聽到委員有一些保留的意見在部裡頭徵詢幼教育學的專家也覺得他在執行上略有困難因為身心發展的其實孩子在這段還懵懂未知其實你很難跟他說得清楚這一塊這第一個"},{"start":26078.022,"end":26095.549,"text":"至於是否只針對教保相關人員還是要第三項有關於宣導的部分是針對高中以下學校的教職員工以及幼兒園的教保相關人員我覺得我們原本的教育宣導也是希望範圍不僅止於學生"},{"start":26096.949,"end":26096.969,"text":"閱讀委員"},{"start":26116.348,"end":26136.923,"text":"好那當然我們尊重這個專業的一個說法但是我還是有我自己的一個想法可以僅供參考那第一個就是你說小朋友幼兒園的孩子不建議剛剛我們已經有共識就是教保相關人員都可以有這個做教育但是幼兒的部分我覺得他可以用那種"},{"start":26137.884,"end":26145.506,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":26155.266,"end":26173.518,"text":"不可以喔不可以喔可不可以拿陌生人的東西不可以喔甚至有類似這樣子的一個圖畫教材做成的卡通影片或者是卡通圖書所以他並沒有說到整個執行上的一個困難只是加強"},{"start":26174.878,"end":26188.15,"text":"我們在對於孩子的這個身體防範我並不覺得這個執行上會有一定的困難所以我覺得幼童是可以帶入到圖畫圖書的一個方式分享"},{"start":26189.926,"end":26216.855,"text":"好 來 教育部那是不是可以折衷一下是不是可以不進入法條的條文但是在立法說明的時候可以說明幼兒園的階段可以由教保服務人員在教保活動課程設計時建立幼兒的正確的防制觀念就是透過他的幼兒園的一些教保的活動設計可以把這些觀念納入進去但不進入法條的內容 以上報告"},{"start":26218.997,"end":26239.825,"text":"報告主席我覺得作為一個家長我可以接受這個折衷但至少我們在每一次的討論中都會有所進步我沒有一定要到入法但我更希望說藉由這件事情讓大家能夠認知到那我也希望寫入到說明讓幼兒園可以有培育相關的一個課程讓家長也可以知道"},{"start":26242.398,"end":26252.666,"text":"主席第四條前面講的事實上是學生可是我希望是在第二項的時候應該講第三項去講的應該事實上是幼兒園"},{"start":26257.33,"end":26262.132,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":26275.936,"end":26277.036,"text":"各級學校及幼兒園應對教職員工及教保相關人員"},{"start":26307.647,"end":26308.989,"text":"各級學校及幼兒園教保人員請改成教職員工"},{"start":26335.905,"end":26337.366,"text":"應對教職及教保相關人員"},{"start":26372.669,"end":26398.902,"text":"謝謝。好,各級學校、頓浩幼兒園應對教職員工及教保相關人員實施兒童及少年性剝削防制教育及宣導。好,然後前面再往前,就是根據我的版本,要把那個,要把,對,或教育宣導直接拿掉,這是我原來提的版本。好,那請問各位委員,針對這個文字內容有沒有意見?還有意見嗎?好,來,請說。"},{"start":26403.598,"end":26424.113,"text":"因為早上也跟委員報告過因為有徵詢過我們教育團體的意見那如果是不是要把它成為教育課程是不是也建立委員這邊或者委員會這邊是不是也跟再跟教育團體或者地方政府再做一個溝通或者徵求他們的意見以上報告不懂因為教育團體是因為我們有問過教育團體他們認為說每學期的兩個小時的"},{"start":26433.926,"end":26458.527,"text":"剛剛教育部的代表不是已經講了嗎?給你們再說明的彈性,你們現在的所有的小時裡面去整合相關的課程嗎?而且剛剛委員一再強調啊,現在就是國高中生這個兒少性剝削相關的議題,其實現在是重中之重。這個問題其實還蠻重大的。所以教育部應該要有這樣的一個行政處理能力,不是由本委員會去告訴這些團體,而是"},{"start":26460.862,"end":26461.082,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":26477.398,"end":26503.404,"text":""},{"start":26504.991,"end":26515.624,"text":"好那如果大家沒有意見的話我們就根據剛剛這個現在打出來的文字第四條我們就修正通過好謝謝來接下來第第五條"},{"start":26527.626,"end":26540.877,"text":"第五條除了第一項我們把內政主管機關我們剛才跟警政署做了一些討論建議修正為中央警政主管機關那在第二項部分有增加前項的專業訓練之專業人員每年就是剛才前半段委員們在討論"},{"start":26551.624,"end":26556.046,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":26573.377,"end":26586.433,"text":"第三項是為了辦理本法第二條第一項第三款性剝削行為之犯罪偵查所以他這裡只要是涉及到犯罪偵查本來我們就一意志權"},{"start":26586.954,"end":26611.954,"text":""},{"start":26611.954,"end":26636.613,"text":""},{"start":26636.946,"end":26648.653,"text":"主管機關定資。因為這部分就跟我們DNA建設的資料,我們都有一套系列的一個儲存管理使用的一個辦法。以上說明。好,針對第五條,請問委員有沒有意見?來,林委員。"},{"start":26659.045,"end":26659.165,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":26676.032,"end":26696.745,"text":"adequate的都可以寫得這麼清楚。我不知道說為什麼在這一點的時候沒辦法寫。另外一個你這樣寫法就會變成只有針對於犯罪偵查可是我們還有一個事實上是被害人影像的一個比對比較希望你們跟衛福部事實上是勾結否則以現在展示做的那個量體很低的時候一旦如果有被"},{"start":26697.225,"end":26697.405,"text":"來,警政署。"},{"start":26729.253,"end":26753.505,"text":"謝謝委員的意見這部分我們已經大概討論了很多次了那因為譴責的方式不一樣外部有他們專業的影像設計處理那屬於被害人部分那只要是涉及到鑑識去判別人員的部分這部分我們警政署當然職責所在我們一定會去做至於之間的一個合作這部分我們也會繼續來做"},{"start":26757.375,"end":26786.463,"text":"那這樣定起來有什麼難事呢就是說今天就是把名列講清楚以外就是說本來我都覺得兒童事實上是全人不是讓政府可以去做這樣的切割的說這分那邊然後那邊衛福部做的事實上是展示只有少少的幾筆你這事實上有大量的那個影像資料庫的話是可以去進行比對那主要這樣子才可以幫助現場減少掉這些少男少女他們的影像還是存在然後"},{"start":26787.083,"end":26787.283,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":26801.424,"end":26801.444,"text":"議員林岱樺"},{"start":26826.032,"end":26842.125,"text":""},{"start":26845.545,"end":26846.166,"text":"建制資料庫"},{"start":26865.998,"end":26866.358,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":26887.165,"end":26891.989,"text":"委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案"},{"start":26909.485,"end":26913.566,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":26934.973,"end":26947.609,"text":"厲似的案件的時候不用再重複可以直接在這資料庫找到那跟衛福部所委託的那是不同樣的一個資料庫的一個系統方式所以是兩個資料庫嗎那衛福部這邊的是什麼資料庫來"},{"start":26951.654,"end":26975.23,"text":"我們做的是後端就是他經過犯罪偵防然後進到檢查體系的偵查或者進到審判之後那個影像是確定確定是一個被害人的影像然後他跟我們的縣市會跟法院索取copy出來之後到交給我們的民團"},{"start":26979.033,"end":26979.253,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具"},{"start":26994.216,"end":27014.535,"text":"所以是不是葉玄文講的其實是在為…我覺得不太一樣的是說因為今天展示做的事實上是有一個被害人他知道他被害了所以呢去跟展示講說我有影像然後你這影像然後展示的那個轉成賀詞之後呢去跟合作的網路平台裡邊請他"},{"start":27015.776,"end":27034.241,"text":""},{"start":27034.401,"end":27062.756,"text":"假設A他被查獲了一千筆那從中如果對的五百筆H值對出來五百B如果也發生這種狀況去對出這五百筆相同可是有五百筆不相同的時候我們還是希望保留這五百筆H值把它保存下來之後因為今天很多受害人根本不知道他是受害嘛他不知道他廁所被偷拍或者是他的男朋友把他東西丟出來了那未來這些保留的未來假設又有"},{"start":27063.629,"end":27065.37,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":27088.985,"end":27091.667,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":27109.8,"end":27111.141,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":27130.472,"end":27140.502,"text":"一切都是沒有效用的那前面我們現在為什麼我堅持第三條、第五條就是因為這些能夠想方設法能夠逮到人比較重要以上"},{"start":27141.756,"end":27164.933,"text":"警政署報告請說明委員的這個資料庫希望能夠有三個功能第一個是犯罪偵查那我們已經把它納進去了然後第二個就是說如果是法院或是檢察官或是其他司法機關有需要的時候也可以這個進入這個資料庫使用相關的資料"},{"start":27165.733,"end":27193.981,"text":"這個部分跟委員報告就是說其實依照現行的法令規定以及現行的機制不需要在這個地方特別列明本來就可以使用那第三個就是委員剛剛說的其他項就是最在乎的就是被害人能不能及時下架這件事那跟委員報告就是說如果被害人到警政機關來報案我們同仁會上這個資料庫裡面去比對"},{"start":27195.041,"end":27209.96,"text":"如果是之前我們曾經查獲的案件但是不知道被害人是誰的時候當我們這一次被害人來報案我們就會把這個資料再傳給性影像處理中心去做下架的動作"},{"start":27210.981,"end":27230.35,"text":""},{"start":27230.49,"end":27232.873,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":27247.95,"end":27276.111,"text":"如果都認為有錯那那這樣子列又有什麼難處呢既然你也覺得說我們都有錯我就明定清楚就像前面在講第三條的時候也之前一直跟我講說我們平常都有錯我就覺得就是把定清楚有什麼因為我常過去在聽政府常講依法行事那我覺得把它講清楚說明白會是比較好的是讓大家有所本而且這樣子的話也希望你們有專責的人員去處理這件事情"},{"start":27277.125,"end":27278.526,"text":"法務單位委員"},{"start":27300.623,"end":27305.767,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":27328.507,"end":27328.527,"text":"議員黃捷"},{"start":27352.469,"end":27352.969,"text":"第八條早上已經達成共識。"},{"start":27381.203,"end":27404.698,"text":"好,那第八條已經達成共識,我們就通過。八之一?八之一也是達成共識。好,八之一條也已經達成共識,那就是通過。翻雲委員他有關。可不可以確定給我們看版本,因為我們不知道,你一直在講通過,我們不知道那個版本到底是什麼。"},{"start":27406.51,"end":27406.59,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":27440.086,"end":27450.268,"text":"第八條范雲委員,范雲委員不在,他有特別跟你們溝通,你們有在跟他溝通嗎?他有一個,他自己在爭列一個那個。好,委員回來了。第八條我們早上的才是那個衛福部的"},{"start":27467.719,"end":27469.58,"text":"就是公開揭示之?就是那個衛福部還是覺得沒有辦法嗎?"},{"start":27489.87,"end":27494.893,"text":"委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":27514.195,"end":27514.215,"text":"閱讀委員"},{"start":27531.864,"end":27531.884,"text":"議員林岱樺"},{"start":27550.834,"end":27566.579,"text":"好我是覺得既然你們認為說比較大型的那些網路平臺都已經有了申訴管道的話那你留在這裡等於是一個希望能夠有但是又沒有法則他一開始並不會處罰到他並沒有不好啊"},{"start":27568.26,"end":27590.571,"text":"那鼓勵那些小型的網站也都能夠有一個公開揭示的申訴管道那至少就我們跟第一線的協助受害人的婦女團體的話他有些時候並沒有想要去性向中心做一個完整的報案那他可能在那個時候他沒有那麼急的時候他就可以直接跟那個小的平台反應可能問題就解決了"},{"start":27591.932,"end":27618.528,"text":"那既然沒有罰則的話,那你又說大型的都有,那不影響他們,那是不是就能夠把它放在這裡頭呢?我們建議保留,因為沒有跟平台做溝通。那就先保留好了。擔心節外生枝,可能會破壞了整個整體。先保留好了。好,那范議員委員這一個部分的提案先保留。好,來接下來81,"},{"start":27620.851,"end":27621.551,"text":"第十五條應該早上討論就是維持原條文"},{"start":27669.478,"end":27680.027,"text":"第十五條就是維持現行條文。第二十八條有修正條文"},{"start":27689.84,"end":27705.794,"text":"二十八條修正通過第三十條保留第三十條後來我們跟廖委員有做溝通原則上委員同意維持現行條文然後另外他有一個附帶決議"},{"start":27708.719,"end":27710.741,"text":"三十條就涉及到刑度及罰金的部分"},{"start":27734.701,"end":27737.002,"text":"三十二條以後三二到三五是保留然後三十六"},{"start":27763.871,"end":27793.222,"text":"三十九也是保留?三十六、三十八、三十九也是保留?對。這些都涉及到那個徵定那個刑責的部分。好,來。再來。還有沒有通過的?再宣告一下。三十九條也是保留?對,三十九條是保留。四十也是保留。四十也是保留。三十九之一並第三十九份已徵定。"},{"start":27794.462,"end":27820.763,"text":"對。三十九條之一併入三十九條不予增訂。好。四十條也是保留?是。四十條之一也是保留?對。四十條之一是併四十條。對。四十條之一?併四十條。四十條之一是併四十條。"},{"start":27822.967,"end":27848.823,"text":"不予增訂。好。四十一條之一保留。四十三條保留。四十四條保留。四十四條之一不予增訂,並四十四條處理。四十五條保留。四十七條照行政院提案修正通過。"},{"start":27850.225,"end":27872.981,"text":"五十條維持現行條文不予增訂。五十一條保留。五十一條之一並五十條不予增訂。五十三條保留。五十三條之一維持現行條文。哪一個附帶決議?"},{"start":27882.113,"end":27907.062,"text":"第八條有一個附帶決議。這個附帶決議也是行政部門看過了嗎?沒看過。吳佩儀委員林岳勤。這個可能要讓行政單位看一下。行政單位針對附帶決議表示一下意見。這個你們好像沒看過。有沒有問題?"},{"start":27909.698,"end":27910.319,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":27921.906,"end":27925.169,"text":"委員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":27946.445,"end":27975.425,"text":"那就做以下的決議。一、兒童及少年性剝削防制條例部分條文修正草案計三十六案審查完略並按擬具審查報告提報院會討論。院會討論本案時由王昭及委員喻明補充說明是否需要交由黨團協商。要。那第二本法條條次及原引條次"},{"start":27976.997,"end":27987.726,"text":"獸權議事人員調整。相關立法說明。獸權行政單位提供。三、本次會議議事錄。獸權由主席核定後確定。然後本次會議到此結束。現在散會。謝謝大家。那我會盡快再召開朝野協商。我也再拜託那個法務部跟司法部門法則的部分"},{"start":28006.459,"end":28006.659,"text":"拜託大家參與條文審查"},{"start":28025.681,"end":28041.091,"text":"議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條、第三十九條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。」案。議員林岱樺等20人擬具:「兒童及少年性剝削防制條例第八條及第五十一條條文修正草案案。案。"},{"start":28042.432,"end":28060.845,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":28063.327,"end":28065.328,"text":"來 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會建議修正娛樂社法勤務人數案"},{"start":1994.449,"end":2021.086,"text":"討論事項個案合併詢答。經委員王世堅、徐富鬼、羅明才、王洪威說明提案要旨。財政部部長莊翠雲及經濟建築管理委員會主任委員黃天沐回應委員法律提案後。藉由委員林德甫等事件提出質詢。均經財政部部長莊翠雲等予以說明及答覆。決議予以說明及答覆。詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊。請相關部會於一周內予以說明答覆。委員力要求期限者從其鎖定。三、討論事項個案均另經歷則及"},{"start":2025.899,"end":2046.252,"text":"好 因為現場的這個委員人數還不夠我想請議事人宣讀今日的議程邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部國家發展委員會、勞動部就．如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象．導引企業與勞工共享獲利．提升我國勞工實質薪資．進行專題報告．並備質詢。．宣傳並"},{"start":2051.175,"end":2076.192,"text":"好,我們原來介紹在場的這個委員官員首先介紹我們資深的委員吳秉瑞吳委員我們行政院主計總處主計長朱澤民、朱仙我們綜合統計處我們蔡玉泰、蔡處長我們國事普查處我們潘玲欣、潘處長"},{"start":2079.163,"end":2101.012,"text":"財政部阮清華政務次長陳柏成署長宋秀琳署長彭英偉署長鄭國基署長謝明峰副主任經濟部林全能常務次長許嘉琳副司長黃偉傑副處長"},{"start":2107.167,"end":2131.656,"text":"陳文辰經濟參事陳佩麗副署長吳嘉穎副署長劉雅娟副署長國家發展委員會副主任時刻和時間人力發展處謝佳儀處長邱麗婷專委勞動部許傳聖政務次長"},{"start":2141.155,"end":2159.104,"text":"我們勞動條件及就業平等師黃偉生黃市長我們中緊急副署長好那以上官員介紹到這邊那我們現場的這一個委員已經到達法定人數請問各位委員對上次的議事錄有異議"},{"start":2161.558,"end":2185.828,"text":"沒有異議意思錄確定今日的議程安排邀請行政院主計處朱主計長、財政部莊部長、經濟部、國家發展委員會及勞動部就如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象．導引企業與勞工共享獲利．提升我國勞工實質薪資．進行專題報告現在我們就請行政院主計處朱主計長進行專題報告"},{"start":2191.95,"end":2210.862,"text":"請掌握重點,朱主席是,主席各位委員你是先針對貴委員貴導是有關提升我國勞工實質薪資請提出專題報告如下因為第一個是說我們的一個國內GDP的分配面的結構因為GDP分配面"},{"start":2214.083,"end":2237.295,"text":"可以考量是有生產及進口稅就是主要是關稅、貨物稅、營業稅等以及固定資本消耗準備這個是責救以及受僱人員報酬是薪資以及營業營餘的不過我在這邊跟各位報告因為我們的營業營餘有包括自營、就業者就是所謂的一般"},{"start":2238.315,"end":2265.517,"text":"就是說在家自營作業的附加價值的困難所以他很難區分說哪一個是勞動或資本那我們按照一般國民所投的一個統計是把它歸入在營業營餘所以說這個營業營餘裡面有包括自營作業者的一個報酬有那個第二頁裡面的那個表一我們可以看到目前他們的一個分配是這個是"},{"start":2266.898,"end":2288.648,"text":"是說GDP就分配面來看因為GDP有生產面有分配面而受僱人員報酬都維持在百分之最近幾年都是在百分之四十三四左右跟早期的七十年代的所謂百分之四十九受僱人員報酬有下降而營業盈餘這個是怎麼樣"},{"start":2291.349,"end":2312.161,"text":"是有大概上升了3、4個百分點固定資產消耗準備是所謂的折舊生產期進口稅到大概都維持著百分之五在左右不過我在這邊必須跟各位報告那個所謂的像表二的話我們就可以看到所謂的受僱人員報酬比較"},{"start":2313.444,"end":2334.328,"text":"比重比較高的行業它的每人的薪資不一定低我們可以看到這個表號裡面電子零組件的製造業因為它是一個資本密集的報酬資本密集的一個行業所以在資本的報酬所占的比重比較低所以它涉及的報酬是只有25.4%可是相對的比起來全國的工業是41%或者是38.4%"},{"start":2344.331,"end":2370.191,"text":"這個電子零組件它的分配面的分配是比較少可是它的個人的薪資是反而比較高我們可以看到每人每月的平均薪資大概有近10萬塊錢那另外一個像住室節餐飲業因為它是一個勞動密集的行業所以它勞動報酬的分配的比例比較高所以我們可以看到有這個裡面它是這個"},{"start":2372.773,"end":2388.408,"text":"分配面的薪資分配面是有62.5可是它的一個平均每一個人的薪資反而是36.1也就是在這邊跟各位報告一下就是說分配比例比較高"},{"start":2389.554,"end":2411.677,"text":"低的他的薪水不一定低或是高分配比例比較高的他的薪水也不一定高這個是跟各位要報告說明的接著目前因為這個受僱人的報酬占GPT比重的一個原因主要看第4頁他有些是"},{"start":2412.197,"end":2429.496,"text":"是跟產業的透心有關是因為製造業它的涉股報酬比服務業高這個大家都很清楚第二個是那個製造業我們的一個占GDP的比例因為在前些時候在前些年的時候"},{"start":2430.657,"end":2456.009,"text":"因為我們產業外移是這個時候國內的薪資比重比較低但是最近兩年到最近幾年到那我們又開始產業又回來所以製造業比較高的他的薪資就比較高另外一個跟生產模式有關係因為像有些行業到有些行業到他是像他的那個"},{"start":2457.458,"end":2484.565,"text":"接單、研發、規劃、運籌都是在國內可是它的生產是在國外所以是說它國內的員工薪水高可是它的那個生產行為不在那個台灣那個是像有些企業尤其在那個生產基地是在國外的在中國大陸或者在東南亞的它的生產、研發、運籌這個都"},{"start":2486.866,"end":2499,"text":"就是規劃這個接單研發規劃運酬在國內所以他的這些員工比較多可是他在國內的員工比較少所以他的那個在國內的那個薪資"},{"start":2502.704,"end":2529.32,"text":"每一個人的薪資高可是整個分配面的薪資比例就比較低另外一個是跟就業的型態有關係因為我們大概自營就業這個是有高達130萬人那在這個我剛才有提到我們這個自營就業我們都是把它根據國民所得的統計我們根據國基金的管理都是我們把它分配在營業營業裡面"},{"start":2532.462,"end":2550.565,"text":"接著我們可以看到那個是第6頁我們可以看到平均薪資的總薪資的增加率我們是怎麼樣過年度都有一些差異最近大家都提"},{"start":2552.466,"end":2573.34,"text":"總薪資的一個成長率有比較低甚至有些年度是負的不過我必須在這邊跟各位報告一下也就是第7月的倒數第二行這個是怎麼樣這個112年到7月獲利不佳員工平均總薪資是僅增加0.7"},{"start":2575.922,"end":2595.605,"text":"扣除物價以後的實質總薪資是負的但是我們在今年的二月份的實質總薪資已經轉為正成長以上跟各位委員報告 敬請各位委員執政 謝謝好 謝謝朱主計長的報告 緊接著我們請財政部我們阮次長"},{"start":2607.389,"end":2624.123,"text":"主席、各位委員先進、大家早安今天陳貴文會邀請就如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象．導引企業與勞工共享獲利．提升我國勞工實質薪資．進行專題報告．並備質詢以下請就近年為鼓勵企業為員工加薪、流產難財及減輕受薪民眾"},{"start":2634.531,"end":2645.518,"text":"租稅負擔的各項租稅措施提出報告．進行解釋要第一鼓勵企業為員工加薪、流產、攬產的租稅誘因依照現行的所謂稅法規定企業為了"},{"start":2647.907,"end":2663.545,"text":"員工加薪的薪資費用．可以認列為相關的費用．何時反映企業成本．減輕所得稅負．另外為鼓勵企業為基層員工．加薪105年．修正中小企業發展條例36條之後．"},{"start":2668.11,"end":2691.833,"text":"對於中小企業在經濟景氣指數達到一定的情形之下為本國極限基層員工加薪金額得案130%至當年度營利事業所得額中減除該項租借優惠將於今年的5月19日實行屆滿為鼓勵中小企業為基層員工加薪協助中企業留用人才"},{"start":2693.355,"end":2704.171,"text":"經濟部已經會同本部研議中小企業租稅優惠的修正草案其中為提高中小企業為基層人工加薪的誘因刪除相關啟動的門檻並將基層的"},{"start":2709.638,"end":2738.481,"text":"員工加薪的薪資費用加成減除率由130%提高到150%及延長施行10年該修正草案經行政院於本月4月18日還請大院審議希望能夠進一步鼓勵企業為員工來加薪導引企業跟勞工共享獲利第三個為協助公司留住"},{"start":2739.582,"end":2752.759,"text":"優秀人才並鼓勵員工參與公司經營分享營運成果產業創新條例第19條的相關規定提供員工獎酬股票可以選擇按照取得試價或實際轉賬價格兩者折一來課稅"},{"start":2759.475,"end":2780.519,"text":"財政部重視壽星民眾的權益,今年以採行相關的減輕壽星民眾租稅負擔措施,包括條高綜合所得稅扣除額度及基本生活所需的費用,減輕薪資所得者租稅的負擔。本部今年"},{"start":2781.195,"end":2790.021,"text":"推動多項所得稅優化措施．包括107年度實施所得稅制優化方案．大幅度調高4項扣除額的金額．108年度增列長期照顧特別扣除額．113年度調高"},{"start":2798.607,"end":2819.878,"text":"右扣跟房屋租金的特別扣除額。另外,為了因應物價上漲公告條高,106年、111年還有113年度的適用免稅額標準扣除額,新知所得及身心障礙特別扣除額可以減輕受薪民眾的租稅負擔。"},{"start":2821.363,"end":2842.53,"text":"為了保障納稅者家戶基本生活所需的費用不受到課稅的權利依照納稅者權益保護法的相關規定公告112年度每年基本生活費用為20.2萬元比上一年度增加6000元預估受益的戶數是達到235萬戶"},{"start":2847.031,"end":2857.699,"text":"以112年度為例．單身的薪資所得者連所得42.3萬元以下．雙薪家庭連所得84.6萬元以下．雙薪四口家庭．連所得在127萬元以下．都可以免納所得稅．有助提升勞工實際薪資"},{"start":2873.571,"end":2893.03,"text":"調高員工伙食費免納入員工薪資所得課稅,為了合理反映用餐消費物價變動的影響,減輕相關負擔。將員工的伙食費免列入薪資所得的額度調高為每月3千元,並從112年1月起開始試用。"},{"start":2900.014,"end":2919.345,"text":"員工自提的勞工退休金免稅優惠部分為落實照顧瘦薪階層退休人員的社會政策勞工在每月工資的60%範圍內自願提繳退休金不需要計入提繳連續薪資所的課稅"},{"start":2922.178,"end":2945.432,"text":"為提高中小企業為員工加薪的誘因提升基層員工的實際薪資水準本部配合經濟部主管政策目的及產業需求提供相關的租稅優惠及提供多項的租稅措施來減輕相關民眾的租稅負擔本部將根據配合政府的政策跟社會經濟環境的發展"},{"start":2947.313,"end":2971.679,"text":"在兼顧財政收入租稅公平及稅政簡化等原則事實檢討各項規定的合理性及推動各項租稅改革措施來符合社會期待營造友善的負稅環境以上報告 敬請各位委員指教謝謝好 謝謝阮次長的專題報告接著我們請經濟部我們林昶志學人先生的進行專題報告請講一點"},{"start":2979.275,"end":3006.808,"text":"主席、各位委員以下經濟部就如何改善受僱人員報酬占GDP比重偏低現象提出專題報告首先就受僱人員報酬的概況進行說明經濟成長的成果可以分配到受僱人員的報酬營業營與資本設備固定資本消耗以及生產及進口稅額等四個面向臺灣受僱人員報酬占GDP比重於79年達到51.1%"},{"start":3008.829,"end":3028.479,"text":"之後隨我國產業結構逐步轉型資本密集產業．企業攤體施設備折舊金而增加．固定資本消耗比重上揚．壓縮受僱人員報酬的占比．但在政府持續提高基本工資．調升軍公教人員薪資．及鼓勵企業跟進加薪等措施下．"},{"start":3029.279,"end":3032.344,"text":"111 年受僱人員報酬持續增加 5.8%．帶動受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重由 110 年的 43.1%．回升至 43.9%．增加 0.8%．"},{"start":3044.423,"end":3049.289,"text":"此外,由於臺灣中小企業比例高達98%,111年1,142萬人的就業人口當中,其中僱主、自營作業者等人數占比約15%,其所得並未記錄受僱人員報酬,而是記錄營業盈餘"},{"start":3064.125,"end":3078.221,"text":"影響受僱人員報酬的占比．另與經濟結構相近的雅齡相比．台灣受僱人員報酬占GDP比重．優於新加坡．劣低於韓國．新加坡長期維持在4成左右．低於台灣．111年更"},{"start":3080.063,"end":3102.595,"text":"降至35.2%是由統計以來最低韓國在疫情期間營業營業與成長停滯近年調高基本工資在企業獲利減少下受僱人員報酬占比相對變高二就薪資的概況進行說明112年臺灣全體受僱員工每人每月總薪資平均約為58,420元"},{"start":3105.737,"end":3110.92,"text":"而年增大約0.65%,近8年平均成長2.23%,其中製造業為62,492元,近8年平均每年成長2.99%,高於整體平均。以電子零組件"},{"start":3122.246,"end":3139.466,"text":"業薪資九萬四千六百九十元．平均成長4.96%最高．凸顯臺灣高科技產業的實力．一百一十二年受俄烏戰爭．僵持以哈衝突持續等地緣歧視影響．全球通膨升溫．各國實質薪資成長多受．"},{"start":3140.507,"end":3152.233,"text":"一致我國112年實質總薪資在考量物價因素後轉為副成長1.79%日本及韓國一分別連減1.95%以及1.09%且連續兩年副成長顯示在全球景氣緩緩及通膨壓力下壓縮實質金資的成長空間三就因應對策來進行說明首先我們協助產業提升附加價值創造高值就業的機會"},{"start":3169.201,"end":3190.499,"text":"第一個,我們應用臺灣半導體產業的優勢﹐發展高負價價值的產業﹐這包括臺灣半導體產業的供應鏈的能量的發展﹐我們發展高負價價值的產業﹐推動石化業者及機械業者投入半導體的材料﹐以及半導體的設備的自主化﹐來創造更多高薪的就業機會﹐"},{"start":3192.22,"end":3217.752,"text":"加速傳統產業及中小企業升級轉型首先我們運用醫後特別預算﹐擴大提供輔導、補助及人培﹐加強協助產業低碳化跟智慧化的轉型協助重點中小型傳統產業﹐如基礎製品、食品、紡織、塑像膠等運用雲端數位科技提升營運效率及數位程度﹐加速智慧化轉型的"},{"start":3218.512,"end":3241.01,"text":"推動工作,三,透過專家輔導與資金的補助導引9人以下製造業運用數位化工具及節能減排做法升級轉型以加持員工多元的技能穩定就業及薪資的狀況第四,協助運用科技及商業模式創新加速轉型提升企業獲利的能力"},{"start":3243.117,"end":3267.823,"text":"另外,我們運用政策優惠的工具鼓勵中小企業為員工加薪首先,我們優化中小企業加薪抵減租稅優惠的措施為提升企業加薪的意願經濟部提出中小企業發展條例修正草案並以函請大院來審議草案規劃刪除經濟景氣指數達一定情形之啟動門檻同時提高薪資費用加成減除率到150%"},{"start":3269.583,"end":3291.175,"text":"適用薪資換偶也將配合修法域擴大至6.2萬元．並納入竹林滾動的調整機制．讓更多的基層員工來受惠．提供企業加薪的誘因我們部裡面提供相關的補助計畫．為企業加薪的企業來做加分的項目．包括我們中小"},{"start":3292.407,"end":3304.875,"text":"我們經濟部中小型企業的一個創新研發計畫以及建構零售暨服務業數據共享、創新服務及服務業創新研發補助等等。第三,我們吸引關鍵的臺外資企業來臺,創造優質的工作"},{"start":3309.178,"end":3333.03,"text":"機會：去年橋外資的金額創16年第三高：包括美商、微軟、Google、庫蓬、新加坡、星展銀行等外商：投資臺灣超過112.5億美元。第二：以半導體產業為例：持續獲得國際知名的企業：包括荷蘭商艾斯摩爾、日商東京威力科創公司：以及德商默克集團等相繼宣布加碼投資臺灣：足強化臺灣半導體產業的供應："},{"start":3336.892,"end":3349.537,"text":"令的任性之外．並創造許多高薪的工作機會。第三．我們投資臺灣三大方案至108年實施以來．促成指標大廠移回高階產線．完善發展國內的上下游的產業鏈．以吸引1472家企業．投資超過2.2兆元．預估對"},{"start":3359.221,"end":3385.982,"text":"這個就業的機會會創造逾15.1萬個本國的就業機會第四提升員工專業的技能來創造加薪的條件首先我們105年開始辦理產業人才能力鑑定也就是IPAS這樣的考試透過業界正面的迴響據統計IPAS考試獲證者初步求職成功率高達9成以上相較勞動部職業類別的薪資調查結果IPAS出任平均薪資"},{"start":3387.143,"end":3413.716,"text":"比一般的出任人員高出 10% 以上。第二,針對商業服務數位轉型及國際拓展之人才需求﹐辦理中高階領導人才的課程﹐培養數位轉型營運及國際拓展之人才專業知識技能。三,中小企業網路大學的辦理提供資訊科技、財務溶通及行銷、流通等逾 800 門的線上課程﹐協助中小企業從業人員提升職場的競爭力。"},{"start":3416.53,"end":3438.152,"text":"最後要跟各位委員來報告．中小企業吸納臺灣八省的就業．為提高中小企業加薪的誘因．留住人才．經濟部推動中小企業．發展條例修法．優化加薪費用減除租稅優惠的措施．以達成鼓勵中小企業．加薪留用人才的目標．禁判委員予以支持．同時經濟部也持續．"},{"start":3439.252,"end":3444.797,"text":"協助產業提升競爭力加速朝向高值化方向發展營造有力加薪的產業發展環境以上報告謝謝"},{"start":3460.441,"end":3475.871,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生、大家早安。陳文貴委員會邀請就如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象．導引企業與勞工共享獲利．提升我國勞工實質薪資專題．本會請報告如下．敬請各位委員先進指教"},{"start":3476.972,"end":3505.953,"text":"我國收入人員報酬占 GDP 相較其他國家為低．主要受到我國產業特性及就業型態影響．包括製造業受僱報酬占 GDP 比重較服務業低．我國製造業因生產活動及強化競爭力所需．朝自動化與資本密集發展．致折舊比重較高且需保有較高盈餘．因應不確定風險．加上產線作業僱用移工情形相對服務業高．致製造業受僱報酬占 GDP 比重較服務業為低．此為各國普遍現象．"},{"start":3507.723,"end":3524.52,"text":"我國製造業GDP占比快速提升近年因廠商積極擴增國內製造製造業GDP占比顯著提升且擴大與先進國家之間的差距由於製造業受僱報酬占比相對服務業為低至整體受僱報酬占比亦相對偏低"},{"start":3525.561,"end":3541.953,"text":"在就業形態方面,我國雇主、自營作業者、無酬家屬工作者等非受僱就業人數占比,相對其他先進工業國為高。此類就業者所得的紀錄營業盈餘估占 GDP 比重約 5.8%,未與受僱報酬合併為勞動報酬觀察占 GDP 比重,與其他國家差距應可縮小。"},{"start":3547.745,"end":3558.119,"text":"在我國提升薪資的相關做法第一,持續調漲基本工資制定最低工資法為保障入職勞工基本生活所需政府已連續8次調漲基本工資"},{"start":3561.525,"end":3588.623,"text":"此外政府亦提升最低工資審議機制法律位階勞工募資訂資最低工資法已於今年實施未來最低工資的調整將更透明更公開更合理審議制度將更加健全讓勞工有更完善的保障第二透過各項法規措施促進企業將成長果實分享員工那如同剛才之前各部位的報告我這邊就先略過"},{"start":3590.244,"end":3613.741,"text":"至於在推動產業轉型升級的部分創造高薪就業機會政府持續推動六大核心戰略產業及投資臺灣三大方案創造高薪優質就業機會經濟部、財政部等修正產創條例及所得稅法等法令有利於企業提升競爭力改善所得分配令經濟部亦以修正公司法"},{"start":3614.676,"end":3630.558,"text":"放寬員工獎酬工具．發放對象．並強化企業與員工共享獲益．透過各項措施．政府積極營造．促進薪資成長的良性制度及環境．讓全民共享經濟發展成果政府將持續透過調整最低工資"},{"start":3632.202,"end":3650.299,"text":"促進企業薪資透明化．推動各項法規鼓勵企業分潤．推動產業發展創造高薪就業機會等做法．營造促進薪資成長的良心制度與環境．讓全民共享經濟發展成果．未來也將創造更加公平且有尊嚴的勞動環境繼續努力．以上報告進行各位委員先進指教謝謝"},{"start":3668.089,"end":3696.549,"text":"主席、各位委員、理事先生、大家好今天會委員會安排如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低的現象導引企業與勞工共享獲利提升我國勞工實質薪資專題報告本部應邀列席說明並聆聽各位委員之教育、自感榮幸以下緊究定期檢討最低工資強化工會協商能力促進招募職缺薪資透明"},{"start":3697.129,"end":3703.358,"text":"及推動相關就業方案等方向進行說明。一、定期檢討最低工資"},{"start":3705.22,"end":3719.323,"text":"為保障基層員工的權益自蔡總統上任以來政府每年監討基本工資且逐年調漲每月基本工資調整8次由新台幣2萬08元提升至2萬7470元總條幅約37.3%那時薪調整9次由120元提升至183元總條幅達52.5%"},{"start":3733.746,"end":3744.253,"text":"另外,最低工資法已在今年上路實施,接續基本工資保障基層勞工的經濟生活本部將於第三季召開最低工資審議會,審慎決定最低工資的數額"},{"start":3748.752,"end":3769.34,"text":"我國今年基本工資採溫和穩健方式調整．也帶動整體平均薪資成長．而本部向來認同經濟成長的果實應由勞資雙方分享．我們更呼籲僱主適度為所有員工加薪．以利留財二、強化工位協商實力"},{"start":3771.33,"end":3793.837,"text":"為強化公會的協商實力本部持續透過培訓、集體協商人員、領聘專家入場輔導、勞資協商嚴定團體協商有關行政指引及提供簽訂團體協約、獎勵措施等多元的行政作為促使勞資雙方簽訂團體協約以增進勞工福祉並穩定勞資關係目前已有諸多公會僱主"},{"start":3799.179,"end":3815.857,"text":"透過團體協商．將條薪或年終分紅獎金等利潤分享條款．納入團體協約中．三．促進招募職缺薪資透明化．為促進薪資資訊的透明化．牢固雙方資訊的對稱．"},{"start":3818.22,"end":3834.293,"text":"以107年修正公布《就業服務法》第5條第二項第6款之規定規範僱主、招募或僱用員工只缺資經常性薪資未達4萬元者應公開揭示或告知其薪資範圍如有違反將處6萬元以上、30萬元以下的罰款"},{"start":3839.541,"end":3853.26,"text":"推動投資青年就業方案．亦後改善缺工．擴大就業方案推動投資青年就業方案第二期關注青年薪資問題為協助青年就業本部在112年到115年會根據推動"},{"start":3856.324,"end":3871.61,"text":"投資青年就業方案第二期．對焦青年就業、薪資等五大議題．推動大專青年的育拼計畫．鼓勵重點產業提供技術職缺．育拼青年進行工作崗位的訓練．提供獎勵金"},{"start":3873.03,"end":3886.278,"text":"鼓勵青年取得重點產業的證照．87年具備．爭取薪資之優勢．方案預計協助共80萬名青年就業．專科以上畢業生．畢業一年後提繳工資於115年提升至4.2萬元．"},{"start":3889.42,"end":3908.699,"text":"那我們在112年已經協助21.2萬名的青年就業那專科以上應屆畢業生一年之後的勞退提繳工資已經至111年的3.9萬元提升到112年的4.1萬元第二我們持續推動疫後改善缺工擴大就業方案"},{"start":3909.552,"end":3930.677,"text":"設定專案職缺與合理薪資為舒緩易後基層產業人力缺工問題本部自112年5月到113年6月事辦推動《易後改善缺工擴大就業方案》透過我們跨部會合作會商機制設定專案職缺合理薪資條件"},{"start":3931.977,"end":3940.504,"text":"辦理專案媒合跟提供勞工就業的一個獎勵以上報告進行各位委員指教並祝主席各位委員身體健康萬事如意謝謝"},{"start":3968.407,"end":3973.471,"text":"謝謝主席與會各列席機關的首長是不是請那個朱主計長有請朱主計長"},{"start":3981.513,"end":3986.877,"text":"主席長你好主席長我請教因為這個勞動部有公布數據就是2023年這個職場新鮮人的薪資平均數為3.5萬年增2.9%但是民眾"},{"start":4003.67,"end":4020.888,"text":"講實在話是很無感啦那實質薪資是不是都被通膨整個吃掉您的看法勒跟那個委員報告一下我沒有看到勞動部的那個統計因為我們沒有分什麼叫新鮮人就是剛入職的新鮮人因為齁"},{"start":4025.573,"end":4048.015,"text":"那個我跟委員報告一下因為一般平均數都會比中位數高平均數會比中位數高所以用平均數的話就會大概會有很多人說我比平均數低所以在我們的統計上我們都有所謂的中位數的統計我們大概是每年都有中位數的統計"},{"start":4049.096,"end":4074.554,"text":"所以說你是以中位數為主對中位數也許是就是中間嘛就是一半的人在那個中間對所以說是用平均數的話我可以跟委員報告平均數中位數大概只有平均數的百分之七十幾中位數是比較低所以說你認為中位數是比較合理是不是中位數的比較也許比較合理但是講實在話雖然說"},{"start":4076.756,"end":4095.975,"text":"新鮮人他的薪資統計說有達到3萬5但是他們是無感的那你無感當然3萬5的話如果是按照這個比例中位數大概可能不到3萬塊因為他們無感是不是給通膨"},{"start":4099.819,"end":4103.743,"text":"現在我們的物價上漲率最近幾個月是在有往下跌的狀態現在比較高的是那個所謂我們擔心油價因為油價減的時候大概80塊現在都在90塊上下徘徊"},{"start":4118.601,"end":4138.348,"text":"所以說齁那個主計長你認為說這個目前整個通膨下降那應該還不至於這個讓這些新鮮人無感是不是你的看法這個是因為新鮮人有時候有些的那個是那個"},{"start":4139.668,"end":4140.469,"text":"財政部副主席"},{"start":4159.319,"end":4185.299,"text":"回歸在員工的薪水上面那這部分你認為到底這些就是獲利的這些企業有沒有做到應該要把他獲利的部分提撥給員工來作為對那個委員的一個共享是很好那我們也希望企業能夠往這方面做大家共同來努力"},{"start":4185.959,"end":4186.92,"text":"主計長澤民"},{"start":4214.74,"end":4217.214,"text":"我認為那個本來你企業賺錢就是要"},{"start":4218.402,"end":4218.822,"text":"主計總處朱主計長"},{"start":4246.431,"end":4261.518,"text":"因為主計總處和國際貨幣基金 IMF 現在都上調臺灣今年的經濟成長率的預測值但是 IMF 也提到最主要的風險是中國大陸房地產長期的低迷"},{"start":4263.099,"end":4276.052,"text":"需求將受到壓抑．通說也會延續．其他考驗．包括日益擴大的財政赤字．以及美中貿易關係的風險．我請問主計長．你認為中國風險．對台灣經濟的影響．大不大"},{"start":4281.737,"end":4281.757,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":4311.397,"end":4315.678,"text":"這也是說我們前幾年的一個鼓勵台商回台是一個很正確的措施"},{"start":4335.923,"end":4361.303,"text":"就是只有鼓勵他回來其他沒有什麼更好的政策對我們這都他們也透過適當的那個管道像那個說像相關的陸委會啦或者是跟他們說當他們台商有的權益應該是給予說依法他們的法來做我們來爭取主計長因為世界經濟論壇WDF特別會議主席"},{"start":4363.985,"end":4390.19,"text":"不倫得對於全球經濟展望．發出警報．表示全球債務比例．已攀升到1820年代以來．從未見過的水準．並提出以開發經濟體．以面臨停滯性的通膨風險．呼籲各國採取正確財政措施．以避免全球陷入低成長的困境．我請問主計長"},{"start":4391.59,"end":4416.031,"text":"WEF主席布倫德的兩項警示你認為臺灣要怎麼去因應呢?跟那個委員報告一下這也是我們最近向財政部跟主計總處就努力說讓債務降低我們的債務已經從那個105年我們開始的百分之三十幾降到目前只有百分之二十六點幾所以我們就是"},{"start":4416.425,"end":4416.445,"text":"主計長"},{"start":4440.206,"end":4454.821,"text":"因為臺灣這幾年的物價上漲都已經讓很多民眾怨聲載道那假如事情預測成真請問經濟復甦力道是不是也會逐漸的打折扣甚至於轉向經濟衰退會不會"},{"start":4455.782,"end":4472.018,"text":"我跟委員報告一下我們的一個物價上漲率相對於其他國家來講是委員也非常清楚是說是相對比較低的雖然我們最近幾年有上漲而且最近我們又開始說有下緩的趨勢"},{"start":4473.78,"end":4496.156,"text":"所以說你認為應該影響不大就是說我們是相對其他國家是比較好的但是我們還是要注意就是我剛才所講的那一個油價的影響那個 主計長今天委員會要討論這個改善受僱人員報酬占GDP比重偏低的現象並引導企業與勞工共享"},{"start":4496.916,"end":4521.768,"text":"來提升勞工實質的薪資其實這個議題在去年10月25號就討論過那對於貧富差距創10年薪高、薪資調整追不上物價的上漲那主計長一直強調透過社福的政策預算來增加的必要性並且強調外界不要污名化社會福利支出是最大的傻逼那我請問主計長"},{"start":4523.209,"end":4548.741,"text":"社福預算的增加．對貧富差距縮小．你認為政府目前推動執行的成效．多數民眾都願意認同嗎對,跟那個委員報告一下這個是雖然問題是一樣可是我們今天主席弄這個題目是一個很好的題目大家這個方面還是要繼續努力的那個我可以跟各位講我們的社福占我們的"},{"start":4549.901,"end":4576.912,"text":"總預算26%因為我們雖然尊重市場制度但某些弱勢的話它在市場運作之下它是仍然沒有能夠得到適當的生活水準在這個我們必須去說受扶的一些措施仍然繼續必要所以像我們提高最低工資或者是租金補貼或者是其他的長照這一類的東西我們努力的方向"},{"start":4577.512,"end":4606.225,"text":"主計長要是多數民眾都能夠認同那為什麼這個民怨會不斷如果無法認同那你認為是不是政府的社福政策做得不夠還是社福政策只能治標沒有辦法治本我跟各位講我們的社福的經費一年現在已經超過那個是在總預算裡面已經我剛才講的大概超過四分之一大概有七千多億的也許我們有適當的財源的話我們可以有更努力的方向"},{"start":4607.585,"end":4630.832,"text":"請各位不要誤這個是什麼都對社福的去亂貼說什麼最後一個議題主計長前天主計總處公布國戶統計與家庭財富的分配這個統計時隔30年統計結果和上次有很大的不同那就是30年前台灣前20%最富有的家庭資產"},{"start":4632.012,"end":4651.37,"text":"事後20%最貧窮家庭資產的16倍30年後現在兩者資產差距擴大到66倍那我請問主計長貧富差距擴大是不是資本主義國家追進下所產生的必要之惡?你的看法勒?"},{"start":4651.99,"end":4676.087,"text":"這個是原因之一不過我必須講一般在做比較的時候沒有把最高的百分之二十跟最低的百分之二十在做比較只有台灣喜歡比較我跟委員報告一下因為有些國家它的最低的那一層是負的那個最高的一層跟一個負的比較是沒有意義的所以國外的比較都是用所謂的說"},{"start":4677.608,"end":4678.889,"text":"因為屏幕差距創新高政府似乎採取"},{"start":4700.706,"end":4721.802,"text":"一手調高社會福利預算一手稅制改革的模式希望能夠緩衝那主計長在某種程度上政府似乎是採用貧富再分配的政策那個貧富再分配要慎重因為那個是否則是很偏向那個共產主義謝謝謝謝林委員的質詢請接著我們請吳秉樂委員質詢"},{"start":4746.826,"end":4771.493,"text":"主席麻煩請主組長主組長辛苦了辛苦了這麼多年現在要跟你請教這是我個人的觀點你覺得今天這個題目如何改善受僱人員報酬占GDP比重偏低現象"},{"start":4773.66,"end":4783.057,"text":"這個題目這樣子寫就是把受僱人員報酬占GDP比重偏低現象變成是一個肯定句"},{"start":4784.367,"end":4811.601,"text":"接下來就是說受僱人員他的報酬跟GDP的比較從剛剛各部會的報告裡面感覺那不是截然的關係啊他是有諸多變量的因素統計的方法不一樣都會造成這個狀況比如說製造業我舉個例子如果你用台積電來講台積電這麼大的員工這麼大的企業他的每年盈餘是這麼的高"},{"start":4812.898,"end":4828.067,"text":"那他的授薪、薪水當然就是在裡面比例是相當低跟整個佔比來講的話那問題是台積電的員工每一個員工的薪水是那麼的高是全台灣最高的幾乎是全台灣最高的"},{"start":4828.992,"end":4851.812,"text":"對 那個委員剛才講到那個重點是很重要就是我們在主計總處的報告在尤其那個第二頁第三頁那個表以及那個第四頁到第七頁的那個內容我們已經針對這個委員的一個意見就是說要看產業的透性這個是就全國的資料可能就是說"},{"start":4852.672,"end":4872.78,"text":"會有這種現象可是個別行業就是您剛才講的像那個電子零組件他的薪資分配2T的那個比例就是說他們薪資分配的那個占那個他的產值的比例大概只有25.4%可是他的薪水卻是接近10萬塊"},{"start":4873.66,"end":4873.86,"text":"主席"},{"start":4893.425,"end":4912.32,"text":"在比較的嗎?都用受僱人員的報酬占GDP的比重嗎?這個是國民所得統計的一個概念那要看薪資的話還是要看每人的薪資所以不要用這個比例不是應該是在說國民所得占GDP的比重應該是這樣說嘛這個是因為在"},{"start":4915.723,"end":4938.718,"text":"在國民所著統計上有生產面跟那個消費面也有一個所謂的一個分配面那個分配面是兩個不同的所以不能夠把各種觀念混在一起然後說這個是怎麼樣同一個問題一直談一直談一直談最後就得出一個結論我們台灣的新製所的占GDP太低了就得出這樣一個標籤化的結果嘛"},{"start":4940.221,"end":4958.876,"text":"所以我覺得這個議題不能夠這樣談啦是的 尊重委員的意見好 再來 第二個是剛剛有人 前面的委員談到說中國現在經濟環境非常的糟糕這大家都知道是的那台灣當然會受到很大的影響因為台灣現在對中國港澳出口還佔30點多對"},{"start":4961.058,"end":4986.199,"text":"那當然已經大幅下降了從40快將近5成降到大概3成左右可是中國現在發生的現象如果依照這個YouTube上面的這些博主在講全中國現在一個最大的運動叫做RUNRUN就是英文的RUN的翻譯所以中國人都在逃啊都在跑啊有錢人也在跑"},{"start":4987.663,"end":5014.495,"text":"一般的人也在跑還要非法入境從南美洲走中美洲從墨西哥然後再偷渡到美國去這樣的人數一直在增加所以從以前那些人就講中國這個地方不是一個合理照我們經濟遊戲模式負擔風險的地方他非經濟因素的風險太多了"},{"start":5015.423,"end":5037.653,"text":"對,這我同意委員的觀點,因為他是一個比較管制,管制的話就是他的經濟韌性不強硬把他拉高那政治,他的政治可以干涉一切嘛,政治可以凌駕於一切的規則嘛,所以那個地方如果要去,我們一再講說要風險致富啦就像我們以前有講說,你投資有賺有賠,啊你自己要評估,詳細評估風險"},{"start":5041.054,"end":5055.147,"text":"總不能賺到錢的時候說自己很厲害賠到錢都是政府要負責任台商靠自己的聰明才智評估這些風險走全世界很了不起其實很多台商也在跑了"},{"start":5056.024,"end":5070.569,"text":"也都在轉移生產基地嘛有很多回來台灣的、貴於返鄉的也有到東南亞去的也有到別的國家去投資的嘛是的所以真正的答案是在這裡面千萬不能說中國的經濟失敗又要台灣政府負責啊"},{"start":5071.471,"end":5091.127,"text":"跟那個委員報告一下有些人說我們非常依賴中國的市場事實上我們輸到中國有很多是中間產品中間產品是人家依賴我們我們中間產品去那邊他做末端的加工然後從他那邊出口嘛那一個部分占比光是電子業絕大多數都是這樣嘛那一個也是為什麼"},{"start":5094.329,"end":5121.559,"text":"中國一直想要搞我們的鬼想要來對付我們結果他在這一方面沒有辦法像農產品這樣處理的原因因為只有農產品不是終端他們可以不需要台灣的農產品他如果有本事把台灣的電子產品禁掉看看看看那經濟會變成什麼樣子最好台灣的經濟人家都不要用所以我們要一直保持領先的地位就是說不要被替代"},{"start":5123.067,"end":5124.428,"text":"中小企業發展條例,立法到現在有多少年?"},{"start":5146.525,"end":5158.305,"text":"一百零五年實施到現在就一百零五年實施到現在在徵僱本國籍員工的部分部長、財政部次長、阮次長你回答"},{"start":5159.352,"end":5164.195,"text":"適用了四五年的時間適用的人數才八千多人影響的稅額才減免了八千萬"},{"start":5189.312,"end":5215.155,"text":"立這個法叫立法院立這個法通過了四五年你的檢討出來的減稅額度是這樣所以你這個中小企業發展條例為了延長十年門檻有一些拿掉了對好然後金額提高了到150%對你預估會造成什麼樣的結果會不會跟我們解說一下會產生什麼樣的效應能夠製造出多少的效果"},{"start":5216.116,"end":5236.777,"text":"應該是這樣子,我們現在那個就是加成的比例如果從130%提高150%它的效果等於是說它的投資抵減率是10%10%的話就跟產創條例我們一般大企業的這個研發的投資抵減是一樣的所以我預估是應該是會有好轉的現象"},{"start":5239.019,"end":5259.506,"text":"好轉是一個形容詞我要你預估會有達到怎麼樣的效果我的意思是說你會適用到多少人當然不是詳細的數字你的估值你會影響到多少的稅額你講一個數字出來嘛好轉的現象那還是還是署長你要補充這個我是不是請經濟部來因為他有稅室評估好那經濟部次長你次長你評估一下"},{"start":5267.553,"end":5288.803,"text":"稅制評估的一個詳細我待會請我們那個中華企業所副長說明那基本上我們有分析就是說有比較樂觀的狀況有比較這個保守的狀況去分析請說明趕快說明那這個影響的那個這個加速在樂觀的狀況10年大概會超過這個上萬家以上這樣的加速那至於比較細節的部分我請我們副長這邊來說明"},{"start":5292.461,"end":5303.178,"text":"報告委員,這個在過去加薪子啟動過一次因為當時有門檻,就是景氣必須要反転我現在跟你講說你這個延長之後10年,你的評估是怎樣?"},{"start":5304.195,"end":5325.996,"text":"在未來的話我們就是每年會是207家然後所以10年年年都可以來進行所以跟之前只有一年66位的話算起來大概會有3010年內跟過去的10年大概會有30幾倍的成長30幾倍啊所以10年可以減免多少稅"},{"start":5327.256,"end":5352.866,"text":"財政部要準備好一點好不好不要讓委員在那邊等待時間人家要來財政委員會準備你要準備好啊這樣子我現在因為本來這個是經濟部的推估那我現在是這樣就是如果是都推估的話"},{"start":5353.886,"end":5374.78,"text":"那麼大概是1.51億1.51億10年1.51億對那就平均一年減免了1500萬對對不對目前的推估是這樣阿一年減1500萬那如果占全國所有的GDP的多少薪資多少那比九牛一毛還不如阿"},{"start":5375.44,"end":5402.288,"text":"對我跟委員補充報告剛才我講的是因為他有不同的評估方法我現在講的另外一個評估方法是大概7.83億就算7.83億10年7.83億就是一年減免了7千多萬因為今天這個題目要為受薪受僱人增加薪水所以我們立一個法延長一個法來幫忙要讓他們減稅"},{"start":5404.7,"end":5417.137,"text":"結果獲得了利益全體的企業符合這個規定一年全國才減免7000多萬這個誰要跟你玩啊所以我是意思是說你們這個方案"},{"start":5418.859,"end":5447.289,"text":"經濟部過去做了四五年你也不檢討成效這麼差今年提出這個方案要我們延長你十年效果也是這麼糟糕這個能夠達到今天題目的目的如何引導企業與勞工共享獲利你一年打算高估用七千多萬的租稅利益來引導企業跟勞工共享全部獲利"},{"start":5449.485,"end":5474.346,"text":"臺灣的企業一年的收入是多少啊?占GDP是多少啊?你們拿一個是什麼東西啊?拿秋毫要修比一座山啊?這個我覺得你們要好好的思考你們今天提出這個案實質你給你了解喔?絕對達不到效果的啦在我來看就算有效果也是不知道萬分之零點幾"},{"start":5475.987,"end":5490.762,"text":"拿這麼一年七千多萬的稅金打算要去做這件事情加油啦好不好好謝謝謝謝委員好謝謝吳秉銳的質詢啊簡直是九牛一奈米啊來那個請那個我們賴世保委員質詢"},{"start":5504.526,"end":5514.057,"text":"謝謝主席以及各位先進有請主計長還有財政部的阮次長財政部的負稅署長來吧阮次幾位總管好喔首先我認為今天題目訂的非常好"},{"start":5525.185,"end":5551.396,"text":"本來就應該討論了本來就應該也可以討論受僱人員的薪資占GDP的比重這題目當然可以談了跟國民所得是另外一件事對不對 主計長 對嗎對 我尊重大陸對嗎 這個沒問題了來 主計長 我問你的一件事情是你有提到 有一段話我仔細讀你的報告裡面"},{"start":5552.296,"end":5563.529,"text":"你說110年上市貴公司財報．電子零組件．營業率大增63%．人事費用也成長28%．受僱報酬反而降0.9．"},{"start":5567.954,"end":5574.256,"text":"這怎麼回事啊 生意很多 賺錢很多 結果薪水砍下來 怎麼回事沒有沒有 他沒有砍下來 因為是他沒有特別去砍啦 那個我就必須說明一下他還是下降 他是比例下降 他是薪水還是漲的啦"},{"start":5593.822,"end":5607.328,"text":"你直接讀一讀,你連文章寫的都很奇怪,有這個情況?你現在讀到你的感覺是,這個電子業的老闆都很慣老闆、惡老闆他賺錢賺那麼多,營業額這麼大,結果員工砍薪水耶!你看那成...四股的報酬占,放在那邊久,你這個窩點有問題啦!我今天不會跟你吵這個,跟你看一下,來!"},{"start":5620.165,"end":5632.31,"text":"你剛這是根據你們的報告請你看一下看一下這個表這個表我辛苦這是你的表是我的對你的你的這是你做的吧"},{"start":5633.806,"end":5641.815,"text":"這個你們的?這個你們的?不是財政部的?這個你們的?這個我已經不是你們的資料?我再看大家感謝我認真看你們的資料,不然你的資料沒辦法看我,我還要看你呢?來!"},{"start":5652.487,"end":5674.785,"text":"有共鳴你80年做一次110年做一次30年才做一次對不對那個不是我做的而且那一次做我憑良心講那一次做的話是並不是一個很成功的他們很努力所以80年是亂亂做的那一次不是亂做那一次是調查調查要看被調查人的"},{"start":5675.185,"end":5699.805,"text":"那一個配合度這一次我們是用大數據不是去問出來的是用大數據這一次是我朱正平做得比較準上一次怕誰做得不準這樣就對了你是這個意思嗎你是這個意思嗎你是這個意思嗎不是這個意思委員是加了太多的形容詞這是沒有形容詞的你的意思這個是我的講說因為是做調查"},{"start":5708.053,"end":5721.306,"text":"委員的家庭人家問到委員說林東有多少財產你自己的很清楚林夫人的你大概也都不是很清楚每個都一樣那個是調查"},{"start":5726.951,"end":5747.24,"text":"這次就是用大數據的資料對嘛 那我講的沒有錯啊用大數據的資料是身體的資料這個是來 請問這是你當主計長的時候做的嘛對嘛 啊我的團隊是什麼時候做的啊這是我朱正平做的以前做的不錯 打捏的對啊有缺點 您解釋出來有什麼問題我跟您解釋 謝謝不然機會沒機會了 快點"},{"start":5755.123,"end":5780.587,"text":"沒有 你也不必過度解讀你這樣你對我的批評我不接受啦齁因為你read your lips看你的嘴巴講的話就是這樣子過去不是調查的可能有人不知道所以呢就舔一舔不準這次大書記撈比較準這跟著你講的話啊對對嘛所以就是朱成敏任內比較準以前不是朱成敏內比較準這個是代表統計的一個進步"},{"start":5784.088,"end":5784.929,"text":"80年現在110年房地產1480萬"},{"start":5805.692,"end":5832.119,"text":"先問一下以後能不能改成10年做一次可以嗎那個也許我們那個看未來的主計長可以不可以啦30年太久啦對10年太久30年太久啦10年太久10年那個5年那個我們要衡量因為那個要各單位的配合如果按照你講大數據的話齁老實講每年都可以做"},{"start":5832.959,"end":5838.265,"text":"不過不可以因為有些資料會是那個收集會牽連到一個很簡單的角度"},{"start":5843.607,"end":5871.723,"text":"房地產現在是1480萬對金融性的資產3809萬對減掉金融事務負債233把他減掉114年淨時A加B減息等於低就是5000多萬那個是最高的百分之二十對最高百分之二十五千多萬結果最低的是77萬所以這裡面來看的話這很清楚看得到了"},{"start":5872.663,"end":5880.719,"text":"很清楚看得到有錢人怎麼有錢股票基金房地產"},{"start":5882.758,"end":5906.604,"text":"這裡面看就是這樣啊!看就是這樣啊!跟那個委員報告一下,林委員提的這個問題很好,但是我也要...總算講我好了!我跟委員講,這也是告訴我們那個最低的百分之二十啊,您看到他的金融負債有四百零五億,他的那些...四百零五萬啦!四百零五萬啦!沒有億啦!四百零五萬啦!"},{"start":5908.965,"end":5911.067,"text":"所以我們就是民管委所講的理財要謹慎"},{"start":5926.121,"end":5926.501,"text":"主計長,你有沒有想到"},{"start":5953.247,"end":5970.364,"text":"這是窮人要借錢過日子有錢人借錢炒股票炒房沒有可能金融性資產也很多你看到最低百分之二十金融性資產有兩百多萬所以負債405那為什麼負債405"},{"start":5977.051,"end":5977.531,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":5997.128,"end":6017.655,"text":"他不是說財務操作啦,你還說財務操作這個數字就告訴人家一半而已啦我跟你講最低百分之二十他的資產只有增加3.8歐倍他的負債卻增加16倍所以要謹慎理財,謝謝你跟他說理財,借錢過日子你沒想到好啦好啦,你下去,你請你下去"},{"start":6021.636,"end":6040.676,"text":"請你就座休息一下主席長機會不多啦 謝謝機會已經很多了 給你這麼多時間呢口口會 口口會 口口會來 市長跟署長啊從剛才的表已經看得到了"},{"start":6042.626,"end":6054.582,"text":"這個社會投資要降低中產的焦慮其實我們就可以看嘛股票、基金、房地產我們的房地產持有稅太低了"},{"start":6056.397,"end":6077.698,"text":"但是現在我們的斟酌稅沒有課我們增加稅裡面所以我們的你看美國動機的斟酌稅要30幾%這個當然今天不是我要講的重點我要講的重點就是在於說房地產的持有稅其實美國房子它那個持有稅大概一年一趴的"},{"start":6078.058,"end":6104.448,"text":"了解了解我們一年房屋跟地價稅昨天那個節目沈副雄還講他的房子大概五千多萬結果的房屋稅一萬多地價稅也從一萬多不到三萬他自己都覺得說稅太少了稅太少了是 報告委員我們現在我們現在也開始就是注意到這個問題了所以我們也提出房屋稅你有沒有準備想要課持有稅"},{"start":6105.888,"end":6108.873,"text":"通知十有歲,不是土豪稅喔!十有歲沒有課!對,十有歲。十有歲!"},{"start":6112.297,"end":6140.232,"text":"房屋稅就是房屋稅嘛房屋稅2.0嘛房屋稅很低啊我覺得是這樣包委員我覺得我們現在已經在改革啦我覺得改革一定要循序漸進啦那我就問你啦有沒有可能靠一個婦人稅把最有錢的超過一百億以上的反正一百億以上的每年繳一千萬給國庫我們長照需要錢健保需要錢太多需要錢有沒有可能乾脆靠一個婦人稅"},{"start":6141.032,"end":6161.544,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":6161.954,"end":6164.156,"text":"中小企業加薪條例那個經濟部可以過來幫忙一下喔"},{"start":6189.691,"end":6199.308,"text":"這個沒有我今天是完全完全呼籲我們主席英明特意的排案你排了案我都給你鼓掌鼓掌好幾聲雖然你們通黨立委不認同我認同這個"},{"start":6203.547,"end":6229.633,"text":"中小企業條例130%那個次長啊次長你等一下那個受署長要聽一聽啊主要就是你們前面那個框框太多啊又要那個CPI到達多少啦又失業率到多少才給他改成通通沒有附帶條件只要你加薪我就給你乘150可以嗎現在就是這樣調整要這樣子150還不夠啦本期的天是200啦"},{"start":6231.425,"end":6246.748,"text":"給他兩百啊,那個又贏才有,剛才委員已經罵得要命,就是條例把定是幾千萬,要一件,要一件,就是我先講喔,我有提案,兩百,所有條件全部拿掉,"},{"start":6247.944,"end":6270.816,"text":"所有條件全部拿掉好不好我們條件都已經放寬那至於至於那個底檢的部分我們尊重委員的那個最後一個小問題那個署長啊你署長你給清楚欸要報稅今天開始報稅對不對你們一定要叫人家填房子是租的自用有沒有對必填喔必填喔對"},{"start":6272.362,"end":6298.642,"text":"這個是要來查房東的稅是不是這是要了解一下納稅人本身現在的狀況然後如果租的話他可以報租金支出扣除你某種程度就查房東的稅了喔難怪人家就不要停其實應該是說課稅資料有多元的用途啦但絕對不是只有單一位的查稅但是可以同時無法同時查稅 對吧"},{"start":6302.065,"end":6310.877,"text":"看到時候怎麼去運用就是你的回答就是了好啦好啦至少最後問你一個聽說你要去宮古房屋了是吧"},{"start":6311.761,"end":6335.168,"text":"沒有聽說,沒有聽說,我沒辦法回答這個問題你是國安基金的擦板手,你走了又從辦公室擦板手我聽到聲音說要把你調去購股沒有聽說,沒有聽說,我沒辦法回答這個問題謝謝委員關憲謝謝耐斯堡委員的質詢,也謝謝耐斯堡委員的肯定接著我們請李燕秀文質詢"},{"start":6342.273,"end":6342.433,"text":"主席"},{"start":6359.878,"end":6380.545,"text":"我相信你一定可以好好規劃你的退休生活做一些自己想做的事情主席長你是北漂到台北來對不對你是北漂到台北來工作的對不對我58歲就在台北工作了我出家離走我知道你在台南白河的竹門國小"},{"start":6384.486,"end":6405.382,"text":"國中、高中都在台南嘛,對不對?那你是大學之後才念政大,才睡戲,然後念研究所,然後就漂流在台北工作,對不對?所以你很幸運,也很努力工作8年之後,在台北市就買了一間房子嘛,對不對?"},{"start":6406.463,"end":6422.637,"text":"沒有,我看看我是什麼時候買的我看到你的報稅的資料我自己都忘記了,謝謝委員提醒你自己有一個房子,72年沒一個房子你也很念舊72年買的房子到現在還在"},{"start":6425.319,"end":6447.434,"text":"當時買一瓶多少錢你還記得嗎一瓶大概十萬多塊在大安路現在舊房子都他們有人都要跟我出十萬塊所以要跟我出八十幾萬謝謝現在大概八十幾萬了當時買的時候你年輕的時候我跟賴委員主席是同樣的故鄉的都是努力向上的人謝謝"},{"start":6450.656,"end":6476.193,"text":"當時那個年代你們那個年代年輕人只要努力向上都有機會賺到錢然後也有機會打造你的夢想完成你的夢想買一間房子現在從當時買10萬塊現在一坪賺到80幾萬努力去兼課賺付貸款謝謝也有付貸款好那我們現在年輕人努力工作8年也付貸款會不會有同樣的結果我們等一下來看謝謝"},{"start":6479.214,"end":6504.42,"text":"我們來看下一張主計長我要跟你討論其實並不是風花雪月因為我對於數字因為我大學念的也是經濟系所以對於數字其實我有一定的想法跟敏感度所以主計長我們昨天公布了整個家庭財富分配的狀況剛才你也回答賴委員家庭財富分配的統計狀況30年前跟30年後"},{"start":6507.961,"end":6521.826,"text":"我們看到這個數據你有什麼感想為什麼突然在這兩三年你會想做這件事情因為我們有所得的調查有所得的分配所得的分配是一個流量但是我們的存量一直缺乏這個那我們跟像我跟"},{"start":6524.767,"end":6547.615,"text":"更新中研院的租賃醫院是我們都值得來他也鼓勵我做所以我是希望我在這個八年之內把它當成一個使命來做所以我必須那你看到這個數字的結果你的感想你的結論是什麼我的意思是說我們有努力的空間可是我們相對其他國家我們是比較平均的不過我必須跟委員報告"},{"start":6548.135,"end":6571.557,"text":"在使用這個資料的時候要特別注意就像我剛才所講的我30多年前的房子是用一坪10萬塊買那個40幾坪是400多萬我現在住在裡面它都是值3000多萬可是我房子愈租愈舊所以我財富有400多萬增加到3000多萬所以使用這個數字要特別注意 謝謝"},{"start":6572.498,"end":6575.061,"text":"謝謝主席講其實我們要凸顯的就是其實有幾個問題看到這個數據其實前面20%的家庭累積的財富平均是5133萬最底端20%他是只有77萬所以財富的差距高達66.9倍"},{"start":6594.301,"end":6620.991,"text":"這個66.9倍其實也凸顯出家庭的這個貧富差距其實上是非常高的那我也關注到我們的潘處長其實做這個普查其實也非常的辛苦但是潘處長昨天也講過說30年前不少南部的人北漂工作自產如果留在南部的話房地產啊發展區域不同財富就會有不同的差距他是不是拿你來當作model來講這個結論"},{"start":6624.099,"end":6646.908,"text":"昨天分析這個數字的時候他講到說很多人北漂所以過去有自產我就突然就直接想到主計長你的案例所以他是用你來做案例嗎沒有啦這個是我的案例給他用也無所謂因為我剛才講說我以前的房子叫400萬現在叫3000多萬我還是住在主計長"},{"start":6651.03,"end":6678.271,"text":"那如果這樣講的話那你要怪當時沒有北漂的人沒有在台北買房子的人或沒有投資股票的人都吃虧囉不是這個意思啦個人的不一樣啊我的同學裡面甚至我學生裡面他們都比我有錢啊主計長我要講的是你從事公務人員吼無論你在哪個階段你這一輩子幾乎大多數的時間都是公務人員其實公務人員"},{"start":6680.132,"end":6700.487,"text":"做財稅也好資源分配的合理性也好包括昭緯今天排這個法案也好其實去年費鴻泰昭緯也排過同樣的法案就是說我覺得財富分配的公平正義是政府每一個單位大家共同的責任不是說我有機會我選擇到台北來"},{"start":6703.809,"end":6721.622,"text":"那我覺得每一個年輕人都應該可以有他的夢想選擇他喜歡的工作選擇他喜歡住在哪裡的哪一個環境我們現在台灣的經濟已經發展到失溫的成長政府在說現在經濟很好但是大多數的"},{"start":6722.803,"end":6747.797,"text":"現在還在工作從20歲到40歲的很多人是沒有感的是無感的所以我才會說我們現在經濟成長陷入失溫成長特別是年輕人的相對剝奪感越來越高委員的用心很好所以我們才要有財富分配而且每幾年要做一次不必每年做因為財富是一個存量存量在短期間不會變化很大謝謝"},{"start":6748.948,"end":6768.938,"text":"所以主計長這個讓年輕人打造一個更好的台灣夢我覺得是我們每一個人的責任賴清德也說要讓台灣打造成一個適合做夢、悠然過日子的地方但是以今天財富分配的狀況"},{"start":6770.279,"end":6792.813,"text":"年輕人還能說有台灣夢嗎?說台灣我們資源的分配的狀況不合理性我覺得要打造現在年輕人要打造像你那個年代86年、80年就可以買房子我覺得恐怕是很困難的這個是我今天看到最近你們做的這個數據報告研究報告出來我的結論"},{"start":6793.533,"end":6821.693,"text":"我同意委員的觀點所以我們要繼續做這些統計資料讓委員或者政府官員作為一個決策的參考但是主計長未來這個決策參考剛才賴委員有講我覺得30年做一次是真的有點久我們不會展明應該合理的做一次啦然後剛才你回答這個賴氏寶委員說這個他們可能投資錯誤其實主計長你有機會退休之後到各個家庭平常家庭去看看"},{"start":6822.674,"end":6847.708,"text":"不要說理財分配他們可能連理財根本沒有錢去做理財啦我要直接告訴你這件事情我跟那個委員報告一下因為我剛才錄了一下有很多人落入到最低的百分之五因為他是資產減掉負債他資產高也負債也高他負債高就是代表說你要去銀行借錢你沒有資產人家也不會借給你所以他就是什麼財務槓桿操作過度謝謝"},{"start":6851.499,"end":6860.041,"text":"主席長財務槓桿操作在有錢人跟沒有錢人的做法是完全不一樣財務槓桿沒錢人只能借錢去過生活沒有所謂來做財務槓桿的空間主席長我第二個問題還是要回歸到今天的主題雖然時間剩下的有限"},{"start":6874.865,"end":6903.544,"text":"我看到無論是國發會或經濟部的報告都說我們現在受僱人員的分配比較少的原因最主要是因為僱主或自營業的人呢占了15%這是經濟部的報告沒有納入沒有記錄這個營業盈餘所以我們受僱人員的報酬比有受影響國發會的報告也是如此但是主計處的報告就比較完整他說"},{"start":6904.605,"end":6932.834,"text":"因為我們的雇主也好為領籌勞的家屬跟自營業者所創造的附加價值我們很難去區分他到底是來自於勞動或資本所以主計長你認同經濟部跟國發會的報告還是你覺得你的報告比較完整他的那個內容講的並沒有錯那我們只是說因為這個事是什麼很難區分所以在國際線的慣例都均"},{"start":6933.254,"end":6950.947,"text":"但是主計長我覺得齁這個是一份報告各自解讀啦同樣的報告無論是今天的召委排了過去國民黨的召委費洪泰也排了可見我們對於受僱人員的薪資經濟的紅利沒有合理的分配給所有的勞工"},{"start":6952.148,"end":6975.341,"text":"朝野黨派的委員都對於這件事情是覺得非常嚴重也覺得值得重視的所以各單位無論是主計處、經濟部、國發會在這件事情上就不能只拿一個數據來告訴我們說這個是數字沒有計算很完整那你們拍拍屁股什麼都不做去年類似同樣專案報告排了一次今年又排一次"},{"start":6976.081,"end":7003.929,"text":"但是如果在這個位置上你們有能力可以做決策可以做更好的支援分配或我們的企業轉型我們沒有做任何事情的話那我覺得臺灣的勞工也好受僱人員的這個永遠沒有辦法享受到所謂的經濟紅利所以我在這邊我只叫主計長出來我覺得你的報告回答"},{"start":7005.943,"end":7030.656,"text":"我認為比較遺憾的是如果經濟部跟國發會只是拿一個數字來搪塞說這個是因為我們的計算沒有把所謂的家裡的其他成員其他的顧存成員納入所謂的報酬的話那我覺得我們永遠沒有辦法改善現在我們受僱人員分配過低的"},{"start":7031.556,"end":7055.553,"text":"一個主要的原因更何況過去10年來我們受僱人員薪資比事實上是逐年逐年降低你不要跟我拿過去其他的比例說我們過去長期我們台灣的這個自僱的員工也好受僱的員工也好長期有這樣子的狀態那個結構長期都是如此但是我們在GDP占比受僱人員卻是過去10年來的新低"},{"start":7058.496,"end":7080.972,"text":"主計長你同意我的說法我們跟自己比就知道了嘛我們勞工的那個比例現在是因為少子化勞工比例是往慢慢的往下的趨勢的話這個比例將來仍然可能會有這種現象因為他就業人數變少了謝謝他不是事業主計長"},{"start":7083.314,"end":7104.566,"text":"人數少跟受僱人員跟受僱人員薪資占比這是兩件事情勞工少但是我們要強調的是受僱人員就是說我們的勞工其實沒有分配到經濟同理所以剛才委員說很關心的我們要利用各種重分配的政策讓他能夠弱勢的人能夠得到更多的"},{"start":7104.966,"end":7114.357,"text":"但是如果從經濟部跟國發會今天回答的報告還在搪塞找幾個理由來美化這些數字來去強調這個數字其實不夠準確的話那我覺得受僱人員永遠就是"},{"start":7120.103,"end":7146.434,"text":"在最低的頂端我們永遠沒有辦法有機會把質詢人拉高跟南韓來比南韓的經濟成長率還沒有台灣的好過去但是他們受僱人員GDP占比比台灣好太多我想這個數字央行剛好打你們的理你好好看一看央行不會打臉我了謝謝打臉國發會跟經濟部請大家好好看一下謝謝燕秀委員接著請郭國文委員質詢"},{"start":7155.748,"end":7163.125,"text":"謝謝主席那有請朱局長還有許政次然後林次長"},{"start":7165.82,"end":7177.403,"text":"我先請教勞動部的許正次許正次請許正次我先請教您許正次今天是五一勞動節我們一起在勞動節繼續勞動然後我們為勞動者今天也是為勞動者而勞動我想請問一下明年我們勞動節還會不會在這邊勞動"},{"start":7188.954,"end":7212.788,"text":"謝謝委員的關心,那我想有關於五一勞動節放假的事情,行政院有這個一個...所以明年會不會嘛,我就借助教育你,你估計你明年會不會來這邊勞動?跟國委員報告,我想站在勞動部的立場,我們想勞工的福利當然越多越好啦你希望明年五一勞動節就不要勞動?我想站在勞動部的立場,我們希望這個是...全國都一致放假,那明年呢?"},{"start":7213.949,"end":7237.55,"text":"這個我們會跟院裡面來繼續這個太保守了你就說你希望就好但是院還是要做決定嘛好不好是不是這樣意思但我想說正在勞動部立場勞工的福利是希望明年就開始如果有機會的話啦好那如果我就請問你一下齁最近本院有一位牛委員提一個案子說適用期三個月"},{"start":7238.737,"end":7246.048,"text":"新資打八折那如果基本工資兩萬七的話那打起來連22K都不到我請問一下徐市長贊成這樣的提案嗎"},{"start":7248.892,"end":7274.398,"text":"這是中國大陸的版本欸是不是那這是台灣要比照中國欸你的看法怎麼樣謝謝委員關心我想基本工資定在那個地方那以後是最低工資啦這當然是有一個標準在那個地方每一個這個受僱者他基本上就是至少要有這個最低工資的一個保障對但是他說試用期如果姑且不論基本工資的話試用期要打八折你同不同意不我想"},{"start":7275.218,"end":7300.652,"text":"這個部分對勞工的權益是有影響影響?什麼影響?定毛影響?往下拉是不是?當然是這樣子啊當然是這樣子所以你是反對還是贊成?我想站在勞動部的立場我們這個是沒辦法這樣子說他僱用期那僱用期有很多老闆會用這個名義就是一直僱用循環性的僱用就會變成有這樣子的惡性的一個方式就是3加333就一直僱用下去一直適用下去對不對?"},{"start":7301.432,"end":7324.059,"text":"我想我們這個要很慎重避免說有這樣子的一個負擔效應會導致低新化的可能避免再次這樣提案嘛對不對好那次長你先稍微休息一下我就教於那個主計長主計長您今天的這個財務調查報告本席跟你肯定但是那個我想你們那個潘處長在這邊嘛你剛剛有說10年太久"},{"start":7325.579,"end":7348.13,"text":"有委員說10年太久那我問一下實務上你們認為幾年潘處長能不能給主計長一個建議大概幾年可以做一次最快的話因為那個是跟他無關應該是由政務官來講那你來回答因為在我認為大概4年4年就可以了那以後我們盡量以4年為例一起好不好4年一起來做一個財富調查那另外一個部分"},{"start":7349.23,"end":7364.356,"text":"主席長,其實今天的這個數字,占GDP的占比,這個數字我是來自於央行的統計數字這個是我們來引用我們的沒有沒有,待會我再說這個是引用你的,那另外有央行的我待會再說,不用急"},{"start":7364.616,"end":7367.219,"text":"有一個聯合國的數字人類發展指數超越日韓這是在2021年的時候然後你們去推估出來因為我們不是聯合國會員國那今年他又公佈了"},{"start":7379.713,"end":7405.369,"text":"在2021年的時候呢那時候我們19名你預估是超過日本22名韓國26名吼那是依照博民總收入來計算的那為什麼今年公布你們沒有再次公布呢你們沒有再次推估呢我們要根據他們的公布以後我們再去看看他們的內容他們已經公布了我們再來做我們會去努力來主計長他們已經公布了他們已經公布了所以我們會去那短期內多久可以把它推估出來"},{"start":7407.899,"end":7431.341,"text":"網路上已經有了我們已經網路上有網路上有你跟我們說一下那個在那個貧富差距的部分我們有沒有改善來來來請處長這時候要請不是政務官來回答了來這個事實結果不能有事實結果怎麼樣這基本上HDI的部分我們就依照他們的做法我們現在排行是上升還下降我印象中好像這一次最新的是有下降"},{"start":7431.721,"end":7432.162,"text":"央行的數字在下一個圖表"},{"start":7450.101,"end":7463.175,"text":"養老的數字就是說台灣受僱者的GDP占比是43.9然後從日本、韓國跟美國相對比較人家都超過52%那營業額的部分的GDP我們的占比"},{"start":7465.946,"end":7484.763,"text":"這個34.4你看日本成13.1南韓22日本、美國24.6也就是說我們確實是偏高因為GDP並不是一個共同的成果嘛你剛剛在解釋當中有個別的行業比如說個案這個我個人都同意啊我相信你都說真的但是大家還是談整體的嘛GDP是共同的成果嘛"},{"start":7485.143,"end":7509.855,"text":"所以在這共同的成果的情況底下薪資是最關鍵的嘛那薪資最關鍵的情況底下那個許次長我讓你看一下我們過去8年的基本工資的努力加上往前推我用10年間來算好了總共是32.6%但是總薪資的數字依照主計數的數據大概是25.9%但是中位數的部分呢其實才16點"},{"start":7512.397,"end":7530.667,"text":"總體而言這數字上就這樣比較這樣比較基本工資是政府唯一可以使用的政策工具我可以理解但是它有足底墊高的效用但是足底墊高的效用其實都是相對低所得低薪的一個所得者在勞動市場裡頭分工的"},{"start":7531.147,"end":7553.693,"text":"那過往勞動部發了很多時間包括你今天所做的也就是說青年如果進入勞動市場也就是outside如果進入insider的部分你們做了很多努力可是問題是出在哪裡出在insider也就是說現階段的勞動者他現階段的薪資普遍上框出兩種類型的人來看一下30到39歲這些人"},{"start":7556.794,"end":7575.48,"text":"這一個增加的幅度最少還有包括大專院校研究所的部分簡單的講根據勞動部的統計我們的基本工資直接受益勞工簡單的講大概20%但是薪資停滯實質薪資負成長最嚴重的就是基本工資以上還有中位數以下的這群人"},{"start":7576.38,"end":7592.463,"text":"市長我希望啊我們要認真看待這一個薪資的問題啊這個薪資的問題我說實在的勞保我們還有公務預算可以補貼短期內沒有問題可是低薪啊卻是長期以來受僱者的痛"},{"start":7593.992,"end":7608.363,"text":"這個是現實的問題所以說這個現實的問題我們要去面對這些包括中小企業壯年世代這些大專學生畢業之後他沒有感受到政府對他的一個照顧或favor嘛"},{"start":7608.903,"end":7632.246,"text":"所以我意思是說接下來你們要去處理這一塊經濟部林全仁市長剛剛吳秉立委員講到你們的方案實在是宏偉大都嚇壞了你現階段的部分的150%這個是用加薪抵稅的概念我做一個直接建議你能不能跟勞動部做一個直接的建議"},{"start":7634.093,"end":7660.502,"text":"就直接補助啦什麼就中位數以下還有基本工資以上這一群人政府沒有照顧到的只要你雇主加薪你加薪一部分減稅對不對你只要加一千我給你五百有沒有可能一比一的方式用加薪專案有沒有可能要不要研究看看是從那一個那個那個有盈餘的企業開始有沒有可能"},{"start":7663.333,"end":7690.192,"text":"委員的想法是租稅加上這個補助可能會引導大家更願意去加薪這樣子才有效果那我想委員的分析應該有他的一個這個那你的看法呢?我們事實上對這個補助的部分我剛有提到說我們有很多的給企業的發展補助那是另外的啊你不要做每個加分的這個作用我要跟你談未來的這個方案啦你的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":7692.049,"end":7714.549,"text":"我想這個部分可能也要看看勞動部的想法我就是要問你跟勞動部你先講啊不要浪費我時間我覺得租稅跟補助同樣有一樣效果不一樣的效果但是同時加起來不是更好嗎你同不同意啊我問你你反對嗎當然這種加成的效果應該會存在那你認為要不要去研究一下可以做研究好可以做研究市長來許市長來"},{"start":7716.567,"end":7717.027,"text":"你的看法呢?"},{"start":7747.107,"end":7775.819,"text":"對 剛剛委員提議我們當然這個部分可以做一個這樣子的一個用一個專案好不好用一個加薪專案我用一個Range給你你評估起來大概多少人我這算出這個人數大概350萬人啦好不好好好研究一下好不好就五一勞動節嘛我看你們勞動部今天有沒有送給勞工什麼大禮啊你至少Promise這件事情嘛我們可以回來把這個委員的意見來納入研究好 納入研究一個月給本席答覆哈可以嗎可以可以好 接下來那個市長你慢點走我覺得接下來最近很多人都談到假期"},{"start":7776.847,"end":7803.514,"text":"這個假期專家市長在這邊啦黃市長在這邊啦我現在看到了大家有在談婚假、商假還有包括照顧假這個我總結跟大家來講這是家屬假就是跟家屬有相關的單位成為一家人你要照顧家人勞工者你在勞動市場之外時間要照顧家人的時候這是家屬假這個家屬假喔老實講喔公務人員跟勞工不應該一國兩制啦那我請問一下黃市長我們這個勞工的假期都多久沒有休了"},{"start":7805.198,"end":7823.458,"text":"有相當的時間了應該超過30年而已超過10年了超過10年而已嗎那因為它最近有一些比較小型的修正小型的修改那不算啦我看主要的應該有的都超過30年了啦主要的價別應該主要超過30年我請勞動部好好去研擬一下"},{"start":7824.539,"end":7851.105,"text":"勞工跟公務人員基本上都受僱只是受僱的國家是部門跟公部門不一樣而已勞動都是同樣的尊嚴不應該有一國兩制應該比照辦理應該假期應該就一樣另外家屬都一樣啊家庭的價值怎麼會不一樣呢對不對商價也應該要一樣婚價也應該都要一樣才對嘛那同樣的照顧家應該給薪的就應該給薪嘛麻煩勞動部從這部分來進行努力研究看看好不好"},{"start":7851.567,"end":7858.869,"text":"是,我們待會跟相關的團體一起來動容討論好,麻煩你喔,那一個月好不好?可以嗎?可以市長,謝謝市長,謝謝主席,謝謝額,額,額,額,額,額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額額�"},{"start":7877.847,"end":7901.866,"text":"有請主計長還有我們的經濟部次長還有我們的勞動部次長主計長、經濟部次長、勞動部次長請主計長謝謝我想這個我們台南張了你很大的一個光你真的是我們的台南之光那今天就是如何改善受僱人員的一個"},{"start":7903.325,"end":7930.452,"text":"那個受僱人員的一個報占比GDP 的比重偏低的一個現狀那就是說怎麼樣創造勞工跟我們的企業雙贏那針對的這個問題我想前面很多委員都問了很多了主計長就是說在GDP 中受僱人員的薪資的一個占比其實逐年的在降低當然它有很多原因就除了少子化以外"},{"start":7931.252,"end":7953.06,"text":"還有就是說在整個薪資的一個平衡不平衡那我覺得不正常的一個變動的原因在你看來會是什麼樣的一個狀況現在給你那個在這個螢幕上面看到了這一個是疫情期間那我們看到了就是說有很多就是這個"},{"start":7962.163,"end":7979.947,"text":"政府如何提升就是企業的一個加薪的一個意願這個當然是非常重要可是企業要提高這個加薪的意願當然我們政府必須要有很大的一個誘因那我不曉得主計長你針對的就是說這樣子的一個有沒有你個人的一個看法"},{"start":7980.727,"end":8000.376,"text":"對,跟那個委員報告,謝謝那個主席委員,我也提供資料,因為我們都台南人都很注重這個事情,跟那個委員報告一下,這個受僱人員報酬啊,我必須跟委員報告一下,世界各國都有,受僱人員報酬的比例下降,世界各國都有這個趨勢,因為"},{"start":8002.017,"end":8021.747,"text":"所以一個報酬的話是要說資本報酬多少勞工報酬多少因為隨著經濟發展那個資本的累積越多所以那個資本的報酬就是像鼓勵那一類的就會比例越多這個是沒有辦法這個世界各國都有趨勢我們是比其他國家比較起來"},{"start":8022.667,"end":8042.997,"text":"主計長你的說法就是說其實這個薪資的重新再分配其實就是在有錢人這30%的部分其實已經再分配到其他的比較大的一個企業下降這種下降趨勢是世界各國的趨勢的那我們就要利用過長措施去把它這個不要把這個下緩的趨勢能夠減緩"},{"start":8046.338,"end":8074.887,"text":"最低工資：或者是說社會福利的措施：讓他的口：薪資隨而下降：他的口支配所都能夠增加：這也是執政黨最近幾年的奴隸是 主席長我想大家就是每一個如果像你講的這樣子的一個通盤是全世界性的屏幕的鹹酥也是全世界性的那實際的總薪資其實大家明顯都在下降可是最苦的就是這些基層的老百姓除了這個"},{"start":8076.608,"end":8079.931,"text":"三大行業不管是在工業及服務業還是在工業及服務業就是說你們把它分為就是實心它的所得裡頭算"},{"start":8096.969,"end":8122.81,"text":"是5萬多可是他的基本薪資還是最初的一個基本薪資還是停留在2萬7千多塊那為什麼服務業是呈現這麼多的一個下降的一個趨勢那我們再看到下一頁民眾的薪資的一個漲幅跟不上CPI的一個漲幅那實際的薪資變薄了這實際的薪資變薄了當然我們看到解決的一個方式就是說你要"},{"start":8123.45,"end":8136.425,"text":"議制這個CPI的增加的速度那最直接就是提供勞工的一個薪資在下一頁那主計長我想在這裡請教你薪水增加最多的本來就是高薪的這個30%的一個民眾"},{"start":8138.487,"end":8154.711,"text":"那薪水沒有占的是在真正需要的一個民眾裡頭那你怎麼樣就是說去看待就是這個分配不均的一個現狀有沒有提供一個更直接更好的一個方法可以快速的來解決呢"},{"start":8155.051,"end":8180.488,"text":"跟那個委員報告一下對於真正弱勢的就像你這邊講的D1、D2這邊有可能是要那個所謂的那個最低工資的處理到另外一個就是說對於中間的這一群人我們是說因為薪資就是等於他的那個生產力的一個報酬那我們要讓他生產力能夠提高就是也許他"},{"start":8181.068,"end":8201.019,"text":"這是我們要給予像勞動部目前有做了很多職業的訓練讓他能夠適應的社會的變化能夠適應的環境能夠使他的生產力提高企業就會會雇用他然後這個是一個原因另外一個就是所謂的社會福利措施謝謝"},{"start":8202.028,"end":8227.005,"text":"好 社會福利措施做得更好謝謝主計長我想接著是不是請教勞動部勞動部次長我想這個主計長講得非常的清楚了如何增加就是本國本國的一個勞工的一個薪資的一個增加有沒有機會我們的外勞的基本薪資跟本勞的基本薪資他是脫鉤的那有沒有機會就是說我們的"},{"start":8227.705,"end":8229.707,"text":"有關於第一個問題其實這個問題是應該是這樣講這個國際上面針對這個同工同酬這個部分是國際勞工組織一個很基本的標準那"},{"start":8256.072,"end":8283.194,"text":"我想這個問題其實台灣也討論很久大致上意思是說我們要跟國際上的這個要一樣的標準尤其現在各國都在徵詢這個事實上我們的這個外籍移工的薪資的標準是不是跟其他國家有沒有這個一致性你們應該很清楚那相對的就是說為什麼有很多外籍的一個移工他們其實他們不選擇來台灣"},{"start":8284.795,"end":8292.534,"text":"不是因為薪水不好是因為被剝削掉了非常多那有沒有機會去改善我想你們已經看出問題了"},{"start":8294.284,"end":8319.331,"text":"跟委員報告若是第二個問題有關於這個外勞在臺灣有所謂的重建費因為我們需要勞工嘛你這個勞工就是說如果你的外勞的薪資跟本勞的一個薪資是脫鉤的時候那事實上我們本勞會就是因為少子化了就是本勞他其實就是說在這個上班的這個醫院上其實會越來越低為什麼?時間沒到錢嘛"},{"start":8322.771,"end":8345.079,"text":"因為被分掉了他的工作機會也被分掉了然後還有他種種的福利也不見了其實我想好謝謝那個次長我想在這裡請教我們經濟部次長我想這個我們整個去中化的這一波的一個浪潮中那我們看到了很多很多就是這個我們的台商他們把"},{"start":8346.499,"end":8347.24,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8358.738,"end":8385.106,"text":"我想剛剛我的報告裡面有提到我們有這個投資台灣三大方案那這幾年來事實上我們已經這個促進了將近2.2兆的一個投資回到台灣來有大概1400多家的一個企業進來我想這個就是在吸引說大家在提高這個生產韌性在全球佈局的時候也回到台灣來那當然我們希望回到台灣來是附加價值高的是比較高階的製造的一個部分回到台灣來做相關的一個生產這樣才能夠創造更高的價值"},{"start":8386.766,"end":8406.189,"text":"我想護高價值高的一個行業回到台灣這個是我們一個目標 非常的一個正確可是相對的就是說在現在在我們台灣本土的很多的一個公司工廠他們其實搶到了訂單也有單子可是問題就是說他的工人是不夠的"},{"start":8407.233,"end":8432.767,"text":"他的工人是不夠的這個在早期2000年的時候我們整體的一個外移我們把我們的這個傳統的一個產業我們移到中國去了移到東南亞去了那事實上這個工廠出去了勞工變窮了因為勞工沒有薪水了勞工沒有工作做了可是老闆變有錢了那相對的現階段我們其實是有單子沒有工人啊"},{"start":8433.564,"end":8460.694,"text":"那你們有沒有想到說有更好的一個方式可以來解決這些問題呢我想這個部分可以從兩個面向來跟委員做報告一個面向我跟委員報告事實上這幾年我們就在提升我們的一個製造業的一個所謂智慧製造的能力也就是說在同樣的這個勞力底下它可以生產更多的一個這個訂單事實上這幾年我們那個智慧製造也就是說更自動化的一個情形增加了很多企業"},{"start":8461.474,"end":8490.627,"text":"在勞力在不增加的情況之下現在甚至連AI的一個就是設備都進來了我跟你講所有的老闆他不會捨不得就是說對自己自己的工廠自己的公司下去投資現在重要的就是說你的工人他的工人是不夠的啊那有沒有什麼更好的一個誘因像有一個租稅的優惠的一個租稅的方式然後讓他們有辦法就是說把讓利給工人啊"},{"start":8492.382,"end":8514.96,"text":"給勞工的勞工的一個薪資你們有沒有想過這樣的一個問題你看你在這個2023年中小企業的白皮書裡頭你說加速要突破突破163萬人的一個創新高可是事實上就是加薪減稅的一個優惠每年申請的不到100家為什麼會這麼懸殊呢當然是我們的條件太嚴苛了"},{"start":8516.517,"end":8538.118,"text":"是 我剛剛我們有很多的委員也就教過這個部分就是現行的那個中小企業加薪的那個抵檢確實是條件太嚴苛了我們現在把它做一個放寬就不用受限那麼多的一個門檻這個是我們在努力對 我們現在就已經提出法案已經送到大院這邊來做審議那這個把原來的那些門檻都把它給放寬掉這樣子"},{"start":8539.499,"end":8563.917,"text":"好,謝謝,謝謝次長那在這裡本席要求經濟部跟互稅署合作就是分析現行的加熱的一個減稅的優惠的一個申請業者的具體營運的一個規模那依照不同的一個規模的業者提出新的一個租稅的一個方案那也評估是不是現在這個新聘僱還有徵聘的一個租稅的優惠之外還可以禁用"},{"start":8564.497,"end":8564.838,"text":"請一個院內提出書面報告"},{"start":8586.121,"end":8590.364,"text":"我們待會在李昆成委員質詢之後休息10分鐘請接著我們請王世堅委員質詢謝謝主席我請我們主計處長跟財政部卵次長宋署長關稅署"},{"start":8614.827,"end":8631.457,"text":"負稅署 副稅署 宋署長 阮次長 宋署長您好委員好三位好我們今天"},{"start":8632.694,"end":8648.507,"text":"主要的主題要來探討平負差距嚴重惡化那也謝謝主計處總算我們等了30年又來了這一份30年前的報告跟30年之後的調查"},{"start":8649.648,"end":8660.971,"text":"那麼30年前我們前20%的家庭財富所得1306萬當時候20%的所得78萬差距16.8倍30年之後我們前20%的財富所得5133萬後20%的財富所得"},{"start":8677.455,"end":8699.702,"text":"沒有增加反而倒減一萬元七十七萬這個差距從16.8倍一下子惡化到66.9倍66.9倍有錢的財富高所得的前20%"},{"start":8701.636,"end":8714.124,"text":"跟後28差距66.9倍這是非常大非常嚴重的問題我先請教主計處長"},{"start":8718.038,"end":8741.11,"text":"這是30年來才公布這麼一次所以是不是未來我們應該縮短這個期限應該每幾年就應該公布一次讓各部會知所警惕趕快找出什麼樣的方式來說斷我們社會財富的分配所以那個"},{"start":8744.4,"end":8772.893,"text":"處長你有沒有認為應該是怎麼樣我是認為說這個不該30年才公布一次因為現在的那個調查的技術以及那個大數據的發展不必像以前那麼一個一個去調查那我們可以利用大數據來做那我們這一次做的就是利用大數據那我覺得委員講的剛才非常對是我們會定期做那個定期不會說30年才做一次"},{"start":8774.819,"end":8799.866,"text":"謝謝你這個答覆所以那你認為應該因為現在既然有大數據來調查統計非常容易嘛所以你認為是不是應該定期那你看應該沒幾年一次我跟委員報告一下因為這個存量的資料不會變化很大流量的話就是所得分配我們每年都在做這種財富分配因為工程很浩大"},{"start":8805.672,"end":8815.943,"text":"其實這裡面有些數字其實我覺得是多講了啦說平均啊大家的平均每個家庭的財富是1638萬但是啊各位"},{"start":8820.925,"end":8836.535,"text":"我們有七成的家庭根本沒有達到平均數所以這一千六百三十八萬的平均家戶財富這句話白說的就對了講假的啦"},{"start":8837.489,"end":8862.197,"text":"沒有用嘛七成的家庭沒有達到這個平均數對因為一般來講啊平均數都會比中位數高所以我們也會有所謂的中位數的一個資料這個是因為我們這個財富啊跟委員報告一下是扣掉負債有些人啊他的一個是怎麼樣銀行啊他"},{"start":8863.397,"end":8889.924,"text":"就是我剛才講的財務槓桿超得過大所以他有資產很高但是負債也很高結果會落入到最低的百分之二十謝謝那個謝謝處長我剛這句話是講給你旁邊這兩位聽的啦我不是針對你齁你很老實你把這些數字很據實的那公布出來這是對的齁好那"},{"start":8890.717,"end":8897.702,"text":"那個朱處長你先請回朱主計長你先請回你先請回那個這個我問一下財政部財政部你們大概這先前我們有負人稅嘛"},{"start":8909.71,"end":8924.063,"text":"那麼你們在民國107年你們就把這個富人稅刪除掉了你們那時候就是短短的一句話說為了留財攬財吸引投資就這麼一句話結果你就把這個富人稅刪掉了那"},{"start":8931.352,"end":8958.069,"text":"剛才經濟部那個次長經濟部一向比較天馬行空他要說這個是為了提高生產韌性生產韌性我倒不知道啦我倒知道你們財政部很韌性你想刪就刪你要討好富人你就這麼韌性的就這樣一句話你就刪了好嗎"},{"start":8959.713,"end":8981.272,"text":"真的你說為了流財攬財吸引投資我就看了這個你們打的這個稅金的所得報告裡面這些你說啊你說有大概股利所得增加678億元可是你如果真的把實質"},{"start":8983.55,"end":9007.112,"text":"鼓勵所得增加678億元你真的去看真正的所得名單都是這些高持股者就是這一些上市櫃營運公司他們本來的擁有者啊你流財攬財在什麼地方我沒有看到任何實質的關聯所以"},{"start":9008.462,"end":9023.269,"text":"我認為你導是應該從你2023年實質總薪資這是七年來頭一次的負成長欸實質總薪資的負成長這才是真的不是這樣嗎然後平均總薪資也是呈現下滑"},{"start":9030.377,"end":9048.951,"text":"這才是真的要關注的問題所以我看不出你們講的那個說鼓勵啊這個所得增加678億這個跟你刪除富人稅什麼直接關係然後現在是工時越來越高薪資越來越低啦那也是"},{"start":9053.705,"end":9064.132,"text":"這個主計總處人家他們有做了這個啦受僱員工每月總工時110年166.7小時111 167.3小時112年到現在是168.3小時工時成長實質薪資所得下降這才是真正的現狀啊那我看你們"},{"start":9082.725,"end":9108.003,"text":"就是我那天也講啊你們部長他就是認為國產稅收這個實質價牢牢的他要守住就對了只對富人減稅其他你休想碰好啊我剛剛就講啊你在當你在"},{"start":9110.026,"end":9119.112,"text":"刪除婦人稅的時候你沒有說財政部當時沒有說要有替代財源才可以免除這個稅金有嗎"},{"start":9120.197,"end":9145.662,"text":"沒有啊我跟委員報告齁是不是可以讓我簡單說明一下我們就是當時那個中華所得稅的稅率45%降到40%當時的確是考慮到當時的就是流財攬財跟促進經濟發展那我現在問你了你要取消這一條稅說每年啊每年大概100億光那三年298億"},{"start":9148.403,"end":9171.304,"text":"報告委員我是不是可以說明一下雖然是剛開始減的時候當然一定會有稅損但是呢如果跟106年跟110年來比較的話我們的薪資所得是增加的6千多億那麼總所得是增加7千多億那麼就稅收來講的話呢"},{"start":9172.585,"end":9173.165,"text":"經濟發展的果實都被極少數"},{"start":9193.65,"end":9202.137,"text":"這些財團富人他們瓜分掉了嘛不是嗎從這幾個數字裡面我剛剛在講我說你要取消富人稅過去啊我們好幾位委員包括我多次談這個不合時宜的稅制太多啦娛樂稅、印花稅、汽機車的貨物稅汽車關稅等等這一些"},{"start":9220.503,"end":9221.103,"text":"我剛剛光講這幾樣喔光娛樂稅"},{"start":9249.67,"end":9251.995,"text":"一年最高才18億這個印花稅就先不講印花稅比較高"},{"start":9256.394,"end":9281.04,"text":"五十億我就講汽機車的貨物稅四十七億那困擾我們許多生頭小民的還有保健品關稅這個二十六億這三項加起來啊汽機車貨物稅跟娛樂稅跟保養品這些加起來才九十億結果你免除了富人稅一年就免除了一百億"},{"start":9282.691,"end":9293.164,"text":"你們大剌剌的這6年來免除了600億結果你偏要跟深頭小民計較你偏要說我剛講的這個汽機車貨物稅我講的這個娛樂稅你們說要找到替代財源"},{"start":9298.7,"end":9323.81,"text":"報告委員我是不是可以讓我簡單說明一下雖然是我們當時的稅率是45%降到40%但是我們那時候有提出的是配套方案就是所謂的就是我們優化所的稅制方案所以是提高了相關的四大扣除優化的結果優化的結果只是讓窮人更窮富人更富"},{"start":9324.39,"end":9333.742,"text":"這個就是今天主計處給我們的結論嗎不會啦 不會啦事實上很多人是因為這樣的一個改革你這個態度就是不對什麼叫不會那主計總處今天這個調查出來的結論你怎麼解釋"},{"start":9339.477,"end":9361.977,"text":"我認為維京從稅制稅賦上面趕快來做調整我認為加薪減稅加薪減稅的第一步財政部你聽好就是要取消失業率的限制因為你所謂的加薪減稅的方式到現在這麼多年只有實施一次原因是為什麼你說要連續"},{"start":9364.864,"end":9389.807,"text":"六個月失業率達到3.78%以上那坦白講這麼多年下來就只有一次而已這個修正草案全部都刪除了啦我實在因為沒時間那個趙先生我再念三個數字三件事情一提三分之二的勞工領不到平均薪資中等薪資者十年來沒有加薪那"},{"start":9391.178,"end":9416.433,"text":"最重要的一點公司的營收表現好像有經濟是成長可是經濟成長的果實是極少數富人他們瓜分掉這一點你站在財政部站在負稅署長你責無旁貸你要去想辦法你不要動不動跟經濟部一個樣講一些天馬行空的可不可以"},{"start":9417.955,"end":9423.337,"text":"謝謝委員指教謝謝王世堅委員的質詢緊接著我們請李昆成委員質詢謝謝主席我先請勞動部的次長有請許次長"},{"start":9444.441,"end":9462.656,"text":"市長那先謝謝主席在今天五一勞動節安排這麼有意義的題目那我先問一下市長那這個我看昨天有國民黨的立委開記者會我先問一下在我們勞基法裡面有沒有所謂的適用期這個詞彙或者說適用期的這個法條"},{"start":9466.631,"end":9491.064,"text":"現在已經修掉沒有這個沒有適用期嘛那所以我昨天有看到有這個國民黨立法委員說要把勞工的適用期法制化而且在適用期的薪水呢不得低於應聘工資的80%那當然就很多人就引起反彈啦那就變成說你同工不同酬啦那本來沒有這個適用期那結果你適用期三個月而且呢薪資打八折"},{"start":9491.924,"end":9515.306,"text":"未來公司應聘新人的時候先幫你打八折再說部長你昨天直播這個新聞市長昨天直播這個新聞是我看到了那你覺得怎麼樣我想這個是之前我們現在新的法令就是因為這樣子有後遺症所以已經把這個拿掉了所以現在又往回頭路這個部分有什麼樣的後遺症"},{"start":9516.603,"end":9541.923,"text":"這可能就變成說因為僱主他可能有一點有專法律漏洞的可能性或者是說這個工資有可能因為這樣子反而下降所以就是算是新進員工進去的話這個沒有適用期第一個嘛就是這個勞資當你有相關的一些契約的規定那也沒有所謂的薪資打折的事情吧所以應該有無反勞基法的規定吧"},{"start":9543.001,"end":9561.543,"text":"我們勞動部是定一個現在是基本工資以後是最低工資在這個之上但我們會尊重他勞僱雙方的一個協議同樣的工作的話新晉能源就打八折這個對新晉能源公平嗎基本上我們是有一個基本工資跟最低工資在這個地方"},{"start":9561.783,"end":9562.123,"text":"主席主席長"},{"start":9590.39,"end":9615.055,"text":"主計長好 主計長辛苦了昨天看到你們發布的新聞稿說第1季的GDP成長率增加到6.51%主計長看到這個數字高不高興?當然高興 這個比我們原來的預期高比原來預期高的原因在哪裡?"},{"start":9615.695,"end":9616.016,"text":"本來預期是多少?"},{"start":9640.02,"end":9666.132,"text":"5.9現在變6.51就是比預期增加的大概0.59個百分點那請教一下主計長如果是按照這個你們在2月底的一個經濟成長率的一個預估預估是今年的全年經濟成長率大概是3.43那如果說按照這個第一季的經濟的這個成長率有高達6.51那您要不要再預測一下"},{"start":9667.773,"end":9675.995,"text":"整年度的經濟成長率會不會再做調整對,我們五月份會有一個新的預估如果這樣子是0.59的話相當於年的話大概是0.15增加0.14那我們原來是3.43"},{"start":9692.14,"end":9696.826,"text":"所以會變成3.5G可是這個是根據原來的預估那我們五月底會有一個新的預估但是趨勢是成長的就對了對對對所以這個主計長對於這個"},{"start":9710.461,"end":9726.727,"text":"臺灣這個今年度的經濟成長率是有信心的謹慎樂觀謝謝謹慎樂觀我昨天看到你們新聞稿上面寫說國內景氣已慢慢轉好但復甦力道和緩這個主講怎麼看對這種是我經過修改"},{"start":9728.147,"end":9731.149,"text":"我剛才講的我們估計3.57也是有依據的"},{"start":9754.887,"end":9765.117,"text":"你們當然主計處的這個每個數據都有依據啦但是這個修辭上面這個學問就很大了因為景氣轉好這個是事實嘛對不對但是呢復甦力道和緩"},{"start":9768.736,"end":9785.132,"text":"這個就是你你你給的這一個的這一個欸怎麼講勒你不希望給下面的主計長太大的壓力就對了對跟那個委員報告一下齁我們的那個有一個很好的現象大家沒有看到我們的出口增加"},{"start":9785.732,"end":9786.552,"text":"本期再請教一下主計長"},{"start":9812.285,"end":9819.413,"text":"從我國GDP分片面的結構來看我們從最早70年開始看到這個111年受僱人員的報酬本來是占49.3%但是到了111年下降到43.9%但是企業營運其實是有增加的"},{"start":9831.727,"end":9845.946,"text":"那主席想怎麼看這個數字呢?這個我必須講這個是因為我們的那個因為那個營業盈餘是對資本的報酬受僱人員是對勞動的報酬那我們的資本從另外一個"},{"start":9846.952,"end":9853.76,"text":"那個方向來看我們資本密集度越來越高所以我們的那個是什麼營業盈餘會一個增加同樣的因為有資本的報酬有勞動的報酬勞動的報酬因為那個是什麼"},{"start":9862.649,"end":9874.701,"text":"表示我們不再是一個勞動密集的產業所以這個比重下跌是一個會是說還可以被認同的世界各國的趨勢都有這個現象主計長你有專業的看法但是我是認為說"},{"start":9880.667,"end":9901.994,"text":"會不會是因為企業盈餘沒有把企業的盈餘分潤到員工這可能也是原因之一這也是原因之一你剛才都沒有提到這一點剛才主席也有提到這一點所以現在就提到說我們這個中小企業發展條例要做修改這個要請財政部次長過來我們這個中小企業發展條例要做修改對不對"},{"start":9907.691,"end":9927.275,"text":"那也是這個有這個加薪減稅的這個主軸那我看了這個你們的這個中小企業發展條例的修改那其中有一項就是第一個其實剛剛這個王思堅我有提到不過你們應該有做修改就是這個景氣啟動門檻有把它刪除掉這個有把它刪除掉"},{"start":9929.916,"end":9952.773,"text":"過去還有說失業率要連續6個月高於3.78%所以過去10年其實才兩個年度有所以把它刪除掉了那現在就是說有關於這個加薪的這部分這個徵雇員工薪資費用百分之130得自當年度盈利事業所得中減除那現在這個加成的減除率提高到150%就對了"},{"start":9955.675,"end":9956.216,"text":"基層員工薪資的適用範疇從5萬元調高到6.2萬元"},{"start":9979.168,"end":9995.783,"text":"請教一下這個條例是到5月19號就是到519嘛那現在如果說是要延長的話是要延長10年就對了延長10年那延長10年的話那現在這一個因為行政院本已經是同意了嘛對不對那你們除了這個之外勒"},{"start":9996.443,"end":10023.686,"text":"你們除了這個之外還有沒有什麼加薪減稅的你們覺得是還有其他的方法來做的我跟委員報告事實上我們現在就是我們的經濟發展朝向資本密集跟技術密集那所以我想就是說就全球各地來講大概基本上都是大概所得分配都有一些扭曲就比較就是有一些有一些這個有些比較好一些比較弱的情況"},{"start":10024.932,"end":10040.463,"text":"那我們現在的做法是怎麼做呢我們就是第一個我們就是希望能夠透過剛才講的租稅的減免所以減免讓這個鼓勵民間的業者能夠加薪那就是說齁你們之前齁這一個中小企業發展條例齁"},{"start":10041.448,"end":10041.968,"text":"那如果薪資呢?"},{"start":10073.149,"end":10094.923,"text":"心智的部分呢?有可能因為這樣子這個減稅之後調薪大概是多少?有沒有這個數字?大概15億多啦我們目前根據經濟部目前的評估的話大概一年大概增加15億多啦那如果說這個到中小企業的勞工的手上勒?有算過嗎?"},{"start":10096.704,"end":10121.832,"text":"就算我就是會增加15億多增加15億多是全部的嘛對對那個別的話那就看每一個職位都不一樣那可是因為現在519就到齊了啊那這個是禮拜明天在經濟委員會就會討論這個案子那這樣來得及嗎在就明天討論我想明天看有沒有結論如果有結論的話就根據那個結論來處理好謝謝主計長謝謝委員謝謝主席謝謝李昆山委員的質詢我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":10130.07,"end":10130.311,"text":"主席"},{"start":10733.015,"end":10735.397,"text":"好 我們繼續開會 接著我們請王洪威委員質詢好 謝謝主席 我先請我們的主計長有請主計長好 主計長 早"},{"start":10757.935,"end":10776.597,"text":"主席我之前就是請問您就是我們要在4月底公布我們的家庭財富那個所得的這個差距那麼我當時呢我還太低估了我說時隔30年會不會超過20倍啊你說還在計算那時候我就想說一定"},{"start":10777.137,"end":10778.938,"text":"這是我們做的這是你們做的圖片做得很好"},{"start":10805.782,"end":10818.993,"text":"但是這裡面其實充分的說明我們的貧富差距是如此之大而且絕大部分的家庭事實上他們都在金字塔的底層"},{"start":10820.307,"end":10839.872,"text":"我們的平均數家庭財富的平均數是1638萬結果有七成的家庭根本沒有達到所以就可以看到整個的金字塔這個在金字塔上端的財富他們實際上真的掌握台灣真的主要的財富我們看一下下一頁"},{"start":10842.076,"end":10856.288,"text":"我們可以看到整個前20%的家庭他們的家庭財富是超過5000萬而後20%的家庭財富是77萬我覺得他們的占比事實上讓大家覺得更為驚訝"},{"start":10859.09,"end":10881.625,"text":"後20%家庭占總體財富連1%都不到然後前20%占台灣總體財富超過6成所以請教一下主計長你那天也講這是你一個使命當你看到這樣的一個數字一個這樣的結果的時候你自己有沒有覺得非常驚訝"},{"start":10883.587,"end":10897.243,"text":"我沒有驚訝因為我們這個數目跟其他國家比較起來是其他國家我甚至講您這個表上所謂的後百分之一就是一的那個在德國是負的"},{"start":10897.703,"end":10899.565,"text":"所以主計長我們比爛就是了你覺得這樣子的結果很OK?"},{"start":10919.602,"end":10924.969,"text":"一般的人沒有這個最高最低級最高級的這個一般高級的百分比我們沒有說很OK我們後百分之二十家庭他的財富可以再少一點他們已經很多了是這個意思嗎"},{"start":10936.545,"end":10962.547,"text":"比國外的那一個高一般國外都是只公佈前百分之二十沒有最高跟最低在比較因為我剛才講最低如果是負的話或者是一塊錢的話就會說差距就根本不能比所以他根本沒有在最高跟最低在比較我們跟我們自己比嘛我們30年前16.8倍當時大家就覺得說這個差距已經非常非常的明顯"},{"start":10963.668,"end":10983.596,"text":"現在呢差了66.9倍然後我們說沒關係啦我們比美國啦我們比澳洲啦沒有什麼關係我沒有說沒有什麼關係這個是拿一個資料出來給大家參考這不是參考這是我們的說明我們的貧富差距差距如此之大參考什麼"},{"start":10984.976,"end":10989.278,"text":"有請院次、林次、施副主委"},{"start":11012.13,"end":11017.992,"text":"主計長我們有請你回去喔主席我要請主計長回去嗎那主計長請旁邊稍候一下喔你好好我先請財政部在這個數字出來之後我們看到一些學者專家認為臺灣的財富差距之所以這個貧富差距拉大主要是稅制的問題那請問一下次長你同意嗎"},{"start":11040.518,"end":11068.858,"text":"我跟委員報告雖然是說這個就是說這個財富分配有擴大但是就納稅來講我們現在其實繳稅還是高所得繳稅比如說我們現在中和所得稅佔最高的佔40%的大概百分之0.86但是它繳的稅佔了大概將近四成五大部分來自於什麼所得呢"},{"start":11071.037,"end":11079.6,"text":"這個所得當然各種所得都有嘛有薪資所得也有鼓勵所得我現在所得上沒有這個資料我們會沒有資料你來這邊沒有資料"},{"start":11083.69,"end":11102.642,"text":"這個組織很多人都滾瓜爛熟了我們才七成來自於我們薪資所得我是不是請那個宋處長來跟你說不用講啦我都知道大概七成的來自於薪資所得所以在我們很多學者專家認為今天要讓我們的貧富渣聚能夠拉平有兩種"},{"start":11104.383,"end":11124.07,"text":"兩種手段一種就是稅制另外一種手段事實上就是社會福利對不對對這是一般學者在家都會認為有這兩種手段但是呢社會福利是一種比較屬於我的一個用補助的方式但是我們在稅制上我們不可諱言的"},{"start":11124.71,"end":11147.095,"text":"在我們所得稅裡面對資本所得科稅太少而對薪資一般的上班族科稅太重因為我們主要的所得稅的稅源來自於我們的薪資所得所以在這樣的一個很多人會認為說我們在稅制上是不是可以做一些改變比如說有人會提到這個應該要不要附贈證所稅的問題當然我個人對於因為我們過去每一次"},{"start":11154.497,"end":11176.052,"text":"去科證所稅其實最後都無疾而終它在技術上或它在政治上的效應太大但是我們能不能夠在整個的綜合所得稅裡面不要這麼完全的仰賴薪資所得這個事上是可以去改善可以檢討的不能嗎?"},{"start":11177.893,"end":11198.54,"text":"我跟委員報告我們雖然新生所得是佔了大概七成就所得的佔七成但是他的納稅他佔比大概51%到55%左右所以其他的還是基本上還是其他的高所得其他的所得在繳稅稅制事上是可以其實我們確實還是可以去檢討來時間暫停一下我請國發會的副主委"},{"start":11204.676,"end":11206.998,"text":"看到這個數字現在全台灣的貧富差距這麼大然後"},{"start":11214.625,"end":11243.077,"text":"我們的財富如此的集中那麼救國發會的角色來說有沒有辦法可以再做些什麼政策上的修正跟改變讓我們的貧富差距不會像國外我們去比國外國外這個就是不對啊所以才會造成以前華爾街不就這樣子嗎百分之一的人有百分之九十九的財富我們要像這樣子嗎所以剛剛主計長的說法我完全沒有辦法接受啊"},{"start":11243.797,"end":11248.484,"text":"時間有限對國發會來說在我們要去解決或者改善我們家庭貧富差距我們還有些什麼手段"},{"start":11257.896,"end":11286.152,"text":"各位委員包括如同委員剛所提到的在主總的這次的調查是財富的調查那平常是我們所得面那所得面如同剛委員所提到的在政府移轉的收入就是社福的政策或是移轉支出的部分租稅的政策去做調整之外剛才所提到的我們的所得結構有盈利所得、資本所得跟薪資所得那事實上在學界的一些討論和政策討論資本利的基本上包含它在交易或是持有的部分的確在稅制上面是可以做討論的"},{"start":11287.093,"end":11305.08,"text":"我覺得就是我們現在的稅子真的太完全集中在一些薪資所得好,然後我們看下一頁這個其實就是我們今天這個專題報告的一個重點也就是我們在受僱人員的報酬占在 GDP 的比例因為我們就是認為他偏低"},{"start":11305.76,"end":11325.929,"text":"那所以也事實上使得我們的很多的年輕人使得我們很多原來他們是以薪資以受僱者為主的家庭他沒有去觸及一些資本利得他沒有去玩股票他沒有錢去買房而這些族群他要去累積財富他就非常的困難"},{"start":11326.909,"end":11352.477,"text":"所以就變成臺灣怎麼樣呢跟國外養錢滾錢錢滾錢很容易但是你用勞力所得去累積你的財富就非常的困難你就會落在後段班而你完全沒有辦法養工所以這就是我們今天的報告裡面為什麼希望能夠做一些改善對於薪資所得者對受僱者能不能再多照顧一些好來看下一頁"},{"start":11353.357,"end":11371.148,"text":"其實今天還有一個訊息就是我們說一直希望能夠提高工資但是我們大學畢業生每四人就有一個人是領基本工資而且即便他已經做一年了還是有很多人他的薪水還在領基本工資"},{"start":11372.128,"end":11384.101,"text":"所以他如何去累積財富呢這才是說我們今天為什麼要有這樣的一個專題報告而這樣的趨勢就會變成很多年輕人變成什麼呢躺平族"},{"start":11385.097,"end":11412.686,"text":"我沒有辦法再努力了我也不敢去結婚我也沒有辦法去生小孩我也不會買房子我甚至連車子都沒有辦法買就像那個什麼就像日本一樣台灣也越來越多會變成這樣所以為什麼今天我要特別提到我肯定主計處時隔30年願意做一個財富調查報告但是我完全不肯定剛才主計長的態度說這不過是參考而已參考什麼"},{"start":11413.266,"end":11434.248,"text":"如果只是請你就說看看而已那有什麼好做的呢這叫做什麼使命呢所以我才希望我們各部會能把這個調查跟我們今天的報告做一個連結我剛就在講如果今天我們對於資本利得我們在整個的稅制上沒有辦法去做一些改變"},{"start":11436.049,"end":11451.995,"text":"臺灣變成一個錢滾錢、錢賺錢的時代那麼我們如何今天是五一勞動節今天就是五一勞動節我們對於廣大的勞工他用心之所得他是受僱人員我們是對他們不起的好不好請你們真的正視這兩個問題謝謝王偉偉的質詢請接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢"},{"start":11466.821,"end":11471.508,"text":"主席,我想請主席長,還有勞動部次長,財政部次長,徐卓發會副主委是"},{"start":11487.849,"end":11505.415,"text":"主席長我想今天是勞動節那我給大家看一個12年前的一個新聞12年前的4月30號也就是12年前那時候是國民黨執政當時的民主進入黨的立法院黨團開了一個記者會說5月1號勞動節臺灣的勞工越忙越窮長工時低工資過勞死"},{"start":11513.718,"end":11539.07,"text":"要求動漲電價、調漲基本工資、降低工時、落實勞工檢查十二年過去了我們現在在立法院講的話跟十二年前差不多只是勿換心儀換了一個黨執政這八年狀況依舊如此立法院依舊在要求動漲電價、調漲基本工資、降低工時、落實勞動檢查次長、勞動部"},{"start":11543.854,"end":11571.215,"text":"今天要對勞工說些什麼?這12年過去的這些問題為什麼還繼續存在?好,謝謝黃偉遠的質詢。我想,針對基本工資或是最低工資,這8年來其實我們有不斷的上去。你們做了很多努力,但是你們滿意嗎?因為12年前比起來,你看看喔,100年度實質經常性薪資較99年度增加15塊,所以被罵到翻掉。同樣的,我今天要問的是,"},{"start":11572.156,"end":11578.283,"text":"台電從4月起電價調漲了11%高鐵便當漲了10%黑松沙士漲了25%物價起漲然後主計總處這邊的CPI2月份預估1.85已經調升到2.03經濟成長率目前大概預估是3.43對吧主計長對"},{"start":11594.983,"end":11616.938,"text":"所以基本工資法已經通過了4月份要針對這個做個評估報告請問勞動部次長你們報告如何基本工資法實施之後對於經濟跟就業狀況的影響報告出來了嗎我們現在已經請學者專家都已經整理好了已經整理好了狀況怎樣你要在這邊回答我啊不是整理好啊"},{"start":11618.794,"end":11637.585,"text":"基本工資對於實施的就業狀況有沒有提升有沒有影響沒有我們現在這個基本工資改為最低工資那最低工資的部分呢我們會找學者專家組成一個你現在要告訴我你4月份報告已經出來了今天是5月1號啦你的報告還沒看過嗎"},{"start":11641.755,"end":11647.079,"text":"今天是勞動節你要怎麼樣給勞工一個答案第二個主計長剛剛講的這些東西前面很多委員都在討論所以目前為止現在看起來我們公佈的新鮮人的"},{"start":11665.27,"end":11666.491,"text":"主計長這是事實吧?"},{"start":11684.588,"end":11691.616,"text":"大學畢業生出社會第一件事情有四分之一的人領基本工資是嗎?沒有這是出任人員的薪資統計結果大概就是職場新鮮人啦"},{"start":11701.971,"end":11716.189,"text":"專科或大學畢業生的薪資中位數目前是3萬也就是說有一半的大學畢業生薪水是低於3萬塊的目前為止是不是這樣?大概是這個數字跟12年前有什麼兩樣?"},{"start":11719.133,"end":11732.361,"text":"我必須跟那個委員報告一下我們的基本工資這幾年是每年幾乎有調漲每年都有調漲但是新鮮人的薪水還是一樣啊主計長你調漲沒錯啊但是整體薪資沒有漲再講一次主計總處2月19號公布的薪資統計全體的受僱員工所有的勞工"},{"start":11738.744,"end":11745.769,"text":"替除物價因素後．去年的實際的經常性薪資只有41334元．年減0.05%．也就是連三年的負成長對吧可是今年二月已經變成正成長了"},{"start":11754.594,"end":11754.815,"text":"各位,剛剛講的"},{"start":11770.374,"end":11788.426,"text":"對,我們基本公司在調漲,但是我們的實質薪資相對的在減少我必須跟委員報告一下,最近8年來我們的實質總薪資是增加了4000多塊,相對於前面一個8年,只有增加了9塊所以我現在只跟你比啊,102年啊,也就是說剛剛講的"},{"start":11790.527,"end":11796.49,"text":"蔡英文總統上任的109年的實質薪資是41437塊到112年倒退到41334塊其實是減少了103塊剛剛講12年前民主進步黨因為只增加15塊把當時的執政黨罵翻現在12年後我們的薪資還到在109年到112年減少了103塊"},{"start":11820.662,"end":11840.668,"text":"這是值得驕傲的嗎?我們的經常性薪資8年是有增加啦有現在跟你講109年到112年對因為你取的那一段是剛好是下跌的我們是取8年比較長的如果109年到112年我們不斷的在調漲然後又下降了那是怎麼回事呢?"},{"start":11841.248,"end":11859.424,"text":"對,那個是物價的上漲因為物價吃掉了薪水是因為貨物戰爭那個物價但是長期的話我都知道你要講什麼因為是勞動節大家不要再掩住自己的眼睛了來,勞動部市長你要怎麼回應這樣的狀況"},{"start":11861.599,"end":11881.934,"text":"我想我們勞動部有提出很多鼓勵青年加值計畫包括鼓勵他去考政法今天是勞動節大家希望的是看到實質薪資不斷的調漲最後一個問題接下去明年我們有沒有可能基本薪資有機會調漲3%因為GDP明年的預估大概是3%"},{"start":11883.3,"end":11906.387,"text":"跟法院報告因為現在是變成最低工資那最低工資我們會有一個審議委員會會考量諸多的因素包括物價也考量經濟成長這兩個是臺灣重要的事情薪資很重要不是只是12年前講的話12年後我們坐在這裡講的意外是一樣的話接下來我想問一下請主計長"},{"start":11908.796,"end":11923.07,"text":"這個新的主計長陳淑芝也是您推薦的嗎那個是我跟委員報告一下蔡總統認識她比我認識她還近她不必我推薦她不必我推薦她不必我推薦她的主張你應該很了解吧"},{"start":11925.018,"end":11937.987,"text":"我當然他是從這個20幾歲就當主計人員到65歲退休是更正苗紅的主計人員來這邊就是更重要就是說他會確認你的工作他是一個很適當的主計長的人選謝謝"},{"start":11941.249,"end":11958.296,"text":"我同意啊就是新的主計長他曾經在民國97年寫了一個碩士論文他原來也是台南市的主計長然後在台南他的確也把台南的債務降債減少百億也達到了領取債這是一件好事"},{"start":11959.136,"end":11978.371,"text":"那主計長你自己在學界的時候曾經也說過我們政府的財政垂直不均然後希望能夠把所得稅、貨物稅提供適當的比例給地方這是在朱主計長你以前的主張對吧那個我跟委員報告一下現在的財化法那個分配比例是我當時候"},{"start":11979.312,"end":11996.39,"text":"您已經改善很多了對接受財政部委託財政部也採用了部分的意見我看到很榮幸所以主計長我想你看陳淑芝在97年說的很清楚因為地方政府都有一樣的痛財化法要盡快修法1999年到現在我們其實每次闖關每次都沒有過"},{"start":12001.515,"end":12017.686,"text":"陳淑芝主計長提出要修財化法賴清德總統在台南市長任內也主張要修財化法我想請問一下接下來的行政院有沒有要修財化法還是您要卸任了所以你不知道那接下來的財政部次長要不要回答我這個問題"},{"start":12021.243,"end":12048.612,"text":"財化法是一個非常政治化的問題那我在想說財化法這一部分我想基本上我現在就跟您說我們民眾黨已經提出來了我相信各黨團都會提出來而且這件事情財化法的版本在蔡英文總統八年任期內沒有提出一個版本是令我比較遺憾的因為至少在每一個政黨在歷年來"},{"start":12049.232,"end":12075.361,"text":"一年來從87年到101年大家都爭取過很多可是過去8年沒有主張過我只想知道財政部接下去對於財政收支劃分法有沒有想法有沒有未來的規劃因為部長會留任部長接下去他必須要統籌全國財政的分配這個部分是不是"},{"start":12076.261,"end":12105.322,"text":"財政部要給我們一個初步的回答基本上是這樣子我們財劃法是這樣子基本上也要考慮到中央的財政的問題當然另外也要兼顧到地方的財政來我現在就念97年主計長他的主張他說財劃法要進行修法確立地方實質財源只增不減的原則要擴大中央統籌分配稅款的規模包括剛剛主計長朱主計長之前的主張貨物稅、所得稅應該提撥一定的比例給地方"},{"start":12105.822,"end":12107.803,"text":"財政部長翠雲、經濟部長澤民、財政部長翠雲、經濟部長澤民、財政部長澤民"},{"start":12127.958,"end":12129.298,"text":"主席好,有請主席總長有請朱主席長"},{"start":12159.179,"end":12182.053,"text":"主計長您好在勞動節的前夕我們看到主計總處就公布了家庭財富分配統計讓我們知道原來臺灣貧富的差距竟然高達67倍引起很大的一個討論所以在這邊還是要再一次的請教主計長"},{"start":12183.354,"end":12210.67,"text":"就是30年前的這個調查跟30年之後做這個調查在統計方式上有沒有什麼差異差異很大因為那個80年做的一個調查是用那個實際去問卷的調查那個是有時候會那個當時被問的人不知道或者說有所可能有所隱瞞那我們這一次做的是用大數據的資料是像"},{"start":12210.93,"end":12211.53,"text":"像那個財產就是利用財產黨那個負債就是用銀行的一個負債是實際的數字謝謝"},{"start":12222.196,"end":12246.596,"text":"那所以這一份資料,調查統計的結果,其實是很有用的一個資料數據嗎?對,是一個很老的,它不是調查,我跟委員吧,是用大數據,不是問卷,是用大數據的分析出來的。所以是說30年前可能是用加護調查、問卷調查,那30年之後是用大數據,什麼資料都撈得出來。對,所以說那個各項的,"},{"start":12248.217,"end":12256.279,"text":"請教一下主計長因為間隔30年兩種不同的統計方式那照理說我們應該是要一年一年的做嘛那這個樣的一個調查的結果他是有辦法做推估的嗎"},{"start":12274.805,"end":12291.144,"text":"這個是我可以跟那個委員報告一下因為這個存量的統計那個是像所得是每年的一個資料那可以每年這個存量的統計在短期內不會變化很大我個人認為四年做一次是一個蠻恰當的"},{"start":12292.526,"end":12317.583,"text":"所以未來建議4年做一次對的那要看未來的行政院的看法以及未來主計長的一個看法那顯然就是主計長您把這件事情視為是很重要應該做的事所以未來您建議如何要善用這些資料做出好的政策這個是可以給各部會做各項政策的參考這個是"},{"start":12319.084,"end":12330.833,"text":"那我請教一下因為我們其實是很想得知這個當中變化的原因就我剛剛講的時隔30年才做很難推估那我請教像有人說這個遺產稅的稅率"},{"start":12334.315,"end":12335.636,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12364.895,"end":12365.175,"text":"全中央民國"},{"start":12382.122,"end":12406.04,"text":"交貨財、遺產、證與稅的只有我在大的裡面只有我遺產、證與稅要不要課稅在國際間在隨界就有很大的爭論在那個在美國有時候換了政黨他的那個是什麼有些人主張不課有些人主張課那個早期那個50%的時候是根本沒有多少人講那最近變成10%到20%那個您講的2017年以後那也是財政部"},{"start":12412.845,"end":12417.547,"text":"我接受財政部有部分採用我的意見是用這個方式所以說變成10到20%就是採用一個比較中庸的一個方式因為財富的一個對財富的因為它已經消費已經課了"},{"start":12437.056,"end":12437.896,"text":"師傅主委、許次長"},{"start":12473.241,"end":12483.313,"text":"請教國發會副主委我們今天談缺工缺工缺工大家都覺得很辛苦那請教您您認為這個缺工是暫時的還是會未來持續發生"},{"start":12486.71,"end":12507.466,"text":"各位委員報告我們在目前每年會有兩次的那個主計總處的統計會有一個短期的缺工統計大概規模大概都是21萬、22萬但是台灣未來因為少子化、少子女化跟高齡化我們在勞動力上面的數量的確是會有結構性的一個缺工是,所以您也認為會趨向常態化"},{"start":12511.584,"end":12522.49,"text":"在這個部分如果我們的出生率是持續低迷然後您說未來缺工也會常態化勞動人口下降那國發會到底提出的解方是什麼"},{"start":12523.739,"end":12548.531,"text":"跟委員報告一下大概分成兩個部分一個是針對於國內的勞動力的一個轉變包含我們勞動力的競爭力跟素質包含結合數位的轉型讓我們的勞動生產力可以提高那另外國內還有一部分是我們如何把我們的勞動產業率拉高那以及我們的一些重要領域的就業這是在國內的部分但是有一個目前從2021年開始國發會跟相關的部會大概有五個部會"},{"start":12553.193,"end":12573.443,"text":"奉行政院的指示我們有一個人口及移民政策的專案所以我們針對於外國的高階白領還有我們在國內的藍領移工如何升格成中階的勞動力就是外國人才的人力的一個策略現在已經在進行已經進行了兩三年"},{"start":12574.463,"end":12592.553,"text":"因為我們的人口喊2300萬已經喊很久了啦將近20年那過去從2000萬然後一直走到現在2300萬那在這個當中其實人口的結構呢我們來看一下"},{"start":12593.453,"end":12614.143,"text":"我們根據勞動部的統計,截至去年底,移工是已經到達75.3萬人了。那麼我們原住民的話來對比,我們目前原住民是58.9萬,也就是說移工人數呢,遠遠的高過於臺灣原住民的總人口數。"},{"start":12615.143,"end":12643.42,"text":"那就是說你在街上你碰到移工的機率比碰到原住民還高的意思那新住民人口的取得身份證的也已經超過65萬人所以這些年其實臺灣的整個人口的結構變化算是非常的大但是我們始終就是要來關心我們到底我們的工作機會在哪裡我們的薪資所得是否可以提高那我們看到像這個住宿餐飲業"},{"start":12644.881,"end":12673.093,"text":"他的缺工率是達到7.99那我不知道勞動部是不是有其他的解法當然你剛才有講包括如何提高我們的一個生產能力等等但是缺工率跟大量解雇的案件其實是一樣並進的都就是到底這個大量解雇是員工的主動離開還是企業關門被迫的被動離開請教一下我們的勞動部"},{"start":12675.538,"end":12694.605,"text":"謝謝委員的這個提問我想大量解雇大部分的原因是因為企業企業他在經營上面可能有他的特別考量像這次花蓮地震我們就接到有好幾個飯店他要這個大量解雇他的員工類似這樣的情形是以他的這個企業經營的所以"},{"start":12695.725,"end":12715.418,"text":"市長您認為這個大量解雇有時候不只是員工主動離開因為薪資條件環境不滿意也有可能是企業被迫關門離開是不是那我是要了解的原因是說因為我們看到104的人力銀行就是我們的職缺越來越多"},{"start":12716.619,"end":12742.394,"text":"但是呢就是找不到人而且這個職缺還創歷史新高就是找不到人那當然大家都會說到底是薪資不吸引我們的勞工還是工作的內容不吸引我講一句實在話啦連我找助理我都好難找我也在檢討為什麼我找不到助理所以這個部分我看到國發會也在示警嘛"},{"start":12743.567,"end":12761.72,"text":"推估2070年的工作人口他會占我們的總人口數的比例會低於五成低於五成這個代表著我們的勞動力會越來越辛苦我們的缺工也越來越辛苦那國發會再請教一下除了市井有沒有什麼積極作為"},{"start":12764.622,"end":12765.403,"text":"這些政策都提出好多年了,有用嗎?"},{"start":12788.602,"end":12803.148,"text":"目前為止,如果是針對於外國人才的攬財,包含白領、橋外生跟在台灣的藍領移工的升級,其實目前績效還不錯。好,那我再請教一下經濟部跟財政部因為時間的關係,抱歉。我想要請教一下經濟部,次長好。"},{"start":12808.507,"end":12835.78,"text":"今天我們的經濟委員會正在審查中小企業發展條例的加薪減稅方案我想請教一下次長目前台灣中小企業到底有多少員工數我今天報告提到說有一千一百四十二萬一千一百四十二萬我的報告裡面有一千一百四十二萬那請教那提出這個加薪減稅就是過去有加薪的勞工到底有多少"},{"start":12837.402,"end":12862.667,"text":"過去的這個實施因為它有限制所以加薪勞工並不多應該大概不到3000人這樣子所以嘛不到3000人總共有913萬的就業人口那中小企業您剛剛說1000多嘛那好今天如果說新制你預估你預估會有多少能夠加薪的員工"},{"start":12863.735,"end":12879.48,"text":"我想這個新制是會展．如果通過大院的審查之後．會展現10年這10年每年我們大概平均預估．會有高的預估跟低的預估如果說低的話每年大概有將近4000多人"},{"start":12880.9,"end":12896.297,"text":"有大概一萬多人這是對年輕的徵雇的部分還有另外一個部分是加薪的人數如果低估是大概五千多人那高估的話高估的一個樂觀情況是九萬三千多人我其實是要問"},{"start":12897.718,"end":12922.063,"text":"因為我在3月20號的質詢我有請財政部就是要提出一個加薪減稅如何把它的稅制優化協助的報告結果我看到回覆這麼說他說適用擴大書省的中小企業家有62萬家然後自己也說他說較無意願配合因為已經享有清稅的效果自己都回答說"},{"start":12923.584,"end":12945.139,"text":"教務意願配合那我就不懂了那這樣子怎麼辦呢我是在想我們講所謂的租屋補助租屋補助也喊很多年了那效果都不好直到最近好一點為什麼因為可以給老闆房東比較好的一個稅制也不會增加他的壓力負擔"},{"start":12946.4,"end":12957.693,"text":"那我們要講的是說應該是要去想這種好的方法去幫助員工加薪因為既然減稅沒得減啊那你就直接加薪補助可以嗎"},{"start":12962.785,"end":12977.255,"text":"我們提出的方案是希望透過減稅的方式來處理那如果要直接補助可能要有更嚴謹的一個評估分析才可以那我希望再做一下評估分析齁我們還是要聽聽看各位的報告好不好好謝謝大家謝謝吳林華委員的質詢請接著我們請羅文明財委員質詢"},{"start":12989.585,"end":13018.77,"text":"主席各位很出列習慣大家好主席可否請主計長朱主計長請主計長你好現在是五月一號五一五一勞工穿新衣可是今天的勞工朋友還有年輕人啊很辛苦啊在今天啊買新衣服穿的不多啊因為啊"},{"start":13020.238,"end":13035.607,"text":"軟囊修設因為手邊沒閒錢啊主計長你應該是最後有始有終啊在這艘船上你要繼續努力啊"},{"start":13038.095,"end":13057.217,"text":"我已經不會在政府這一個單位這艘船上我是在中華民國這一個島上在這艘你我共同的船上每個人都要繼續努力雖然主計長已經是快要畢業了人之將至"},{"start":13058.194,"end":13087.119,"text":"其言也善那個是送到殯儀館的啦你不要用對話我是說這個位置即將到一個話句點的時刻你應該多講一點正面的講一些良心話本席一直關心年輕人低薪的問題請問一下主計長現在年輕人啊薪水有沒有高於三萬五的"},{"start":13088.07,"end":13114.983,"text":"我們的經常薪資平均大概是所謂的4萬多塊經常薪資那林剛才講的3萬5那個新剛畢業的人是平均沒有那麼多那是不是主計長中華民國很有錢對我們應該多多照顧年輕人"},{"start":13116.204,"end":13135.712,"text":"低於平均線3萬5以下的是不是可以來申請你一點補助啊那個是他如果符合低收入戶的話就是可以的要符合那個一定的一個條件而且我們也有很多的一些措施像那個租金補貼啊"},{"start":13136.872,"end":13159.91,"text":"像那個綏帶啊,我們最近都有很多的一個措施讓年輕人避免綏帶的壓力以及那個所謂的房屋租金的一個壓力那個還不濟急啦有啦,那個每個月都發的,不過還不濟急很多的青年"},{"start":13161.109,"end":13162.89,"text":"勞工部是哪一位?勞動部有請許市長"},{"start":13191.101,"end":13214.859,"text":"許次長那主計長也請你留步齁因為你是老陳福記事實上你可以指導幫助很多年輕人的齁我繼續討論你就可以講兩句話了齁那請問許次長請問啊外勞啊他最低薪資一般大概在台灣可以領多少"},{"start":13216.842,"end":13229.544,"text":"謝謝羅委員拜託有好多種如果是我們所謂的廠工、製造業那依照我們目前規定的基本工資廠工至少要在基本工資以上多少"},{"start":13230.683,"end":13246.87,"text":"目前基本工資以上的話是兩萬七千四百七十兩萬七千多請問長照的這些外勞一個月領多少長照的部分就以目前是兩萬左右多少兩萬左右長照兩萬可以請得到"},{"start":13248.207,"end":13276.037,"text":"長照有分兩種,一個是在機構工作那也要基本工資,如果是在家庭幫傭看護的,那個部分是兩萬出頭一點家裡的話是兩萬多,多多少?大概兩萬一、兩萬二長照的部分,外勞是領多少?以機構嗎?機構大概基本工資以上,兩萬七千四百七十元以上市長啊,你吃米不知道米多少"},{"start":13277.25,"end":13289.893,"text":"不要說有的沒的啦,你去醫院問問看,你要挺一個臨時的長照,沒六萬沒八萬,你要請什麼人?那是本國的啦本國的,好,那你請外勞的不用五萬嗎?"},{"start":13291.727,"end":13294.448,"text":"你承不承認本席剛講的是比較貼近市場面對吧齁所以"},{"start":13319.298,"end":13348.059,"text":"那個接著回過來就是換主計長了事實上連外勞啊可能每一個月都是領4萬5、領5萬、6萬以上那個我跟委員報告你講的那個可能是外配不是外勞謝謝外勞啦在醫院裡面幫忙看護的幫忙24小時在醫院照顧健康的對那很多都是外配謝謝好啦不管啦齁"},{"start":13351.076,"end":13372.492,"text":"這個重點是要提醒主計長連外勞都領五萬了你為什麼讓中華民國我們的年輕人、青年人只有領三萬五有的還領不到所以本席在這裡就一直奉勸你你就最後一段路了嘛你就講講實際的心裡話"},{"start":13375.794,"end":13402.888,"text":"拜託你幫幫年輕人嘛如果年輕朋友領不到3萬5的國家補助嘛國家支持啊國家要挺身而出照顧他們啊主計長能不能幫幫這些年輕人啊對也許委員現在年輕人我覺得將心比心啊如果我是這些年輕人喔我每天起來的話就是四個字"},{"start":13404.531,"end":13431.242,"text":"希望跟絕望因為我在幹下去啊沒有什麼好做只好做UBER啊主計長做UBER跑單一個月可以領多少錢現在大概會有3、4萬以上謝謝吃米不知道米多少青菜比較認真、早餐最少也7萬有的拼到底齁暗示也拼、立示也拼差不多要10幾萬啦"},{"start":13432.813,"end":13462.16,"text":"所以這造成說沒辦法啦為了生活不是為了理想啊因為沒有理想啊只是在這種困難的環境中自我安慰然後努力生存希望可以掙得比外勞多一點點的薪水看護的起碼都六萬七萬啊所以年輕人是沒有希望的啊所以我希望"},{"start":13463.988,"end":13478.317,"text":"我們所有的相關單位政府機關平心而論現在的貧富懸殊啊已經擴大到歷史新高主計長貧富懸殊最高數跟最低數差多少"},{"start":13479.473,"end":13506.729,"text":"那個我剛才講說那個最高最低級比沒有恰67倍那個並不很恰當因為67倍的意思就是主計長跟你沒關係因為你不是最底層的那67分之一每個人每個年輕人比較辛苦弱勢的只能寄望寄生上游不斷的往上攀爬"},{"start":13508.463,"end":13532.892,"text":"問題沒有人像你那麼好啊你有公務機關啊你退休還有退休金啊你退薪還有退休人國家會養你啊這年輕人手無寸鐵啊人為刀齒我為魚肉所以本席建議啊今年度的預算優先照顧年輕人今年的所有的預算"},{"start":13534.093,"end":13548.115,"text":"大力、大幅度來照顧年輕人,特別有小孩的年輕人。但請教我們最近的預算就是像委員所做的那個樣子,我們的那個是怎麼樣?"},{"start":13549.778,"end":13576.677,"text":"就是說青年有誰誰代而且有房租補貼而且有小孩的每一個人五千塊我們就是像委員所講的已經在照顧那個東西那個都是以前過去八年以前沒有的謝謝難道你要我在這邊好好的感謝你謝主隆恩嗎沒有啦我們是如果你做得好因為那個是納稅人我們應該做得好年輕人就不會亂談了啦"},{"start":13580.404,"end":13587.95,"text":"你做得好啊年輕人就不會痛哭流淚啊你做得好啊大家就拿箱來跟你拜啊"},{"start":13589.401,"end":13613.691,"text":"問題你做好了嗎?年輕人的薪資在目前的情況起碼你要五萬起跳啊主計長以現在的經濟水平現在政府的照顧什麼時候能讓年輕人臺灣的年輕人可以稍微緩緩至少一個月領五萬塊以上什麼時候做得到?那個未來的人會做得到"},{"start":13619.861,"end":13642.27,"text":"做不到請下台其實國家有很多的政策工具啊我下台很快了啦我這兩個多禮拜就下台了啦委員所以你做不到要下台啊對啊我下台啊政府有那麼多的單位那麼多的錢該用不用我上上禮拜"},{"start":13643.311,"end":13663.284,"text":"報一條給你們批判保險法146條知識修正以後從國外引進來的資金有6兆多你也可以要求這6兆多優先怎麼樣的方式來照顧年輕人啊你們碰到財團"},{"start":13664.929,"end":13693.633,"text":"碰到大企業家通通轉彎六兆多回來你為什麼不主張歡迎你們回來百分之十的概念全部優先照顧年輕人這個你可以提的啊那個不是政府的錢不能夠花給民眾你可以移政稅增加百分之二十、百分之五十全部照顧年輕人啊你們都不做啊"},{"start":13695.59,"end":13703.253,"text":"該做不做所以主計長不做的結果最後就是要下台一鞠躬謝謝"},{"start":13718.824,"end":13727.989,"text":"主席各位立席委員各位官員大家好主席我想請財政部阮政次阮次請"},{"start":13733.696,"end":13760.664,"text":"委員好次長好本期先在這裡先向我們今天是勞工勞動節我們向所有的勞工致敬包括我們立法院所有的助理秘書那我想請教我們次長5月1號今天就是報稅了報稅季財政部在4月25號已經開始激發這些稅額的試算通知那112年度有四大"},{"start":13761.864,"end":13777.179,"text":"四大新規定,包括民法、成年、年齡下修到18歲、每年基本生活費調高至20.2萬、CFC制度首度申報、救治房屋、受訪所得等等。請市長簡單說明"},{"start":13780.741,"end":13800.569,"text":"我們今年的中國首席集團申報集團申報大概有很多的一些調整主要有四項,就是剛才委員也都提出來了就是說我們民法根據民法規定成年的年齡下修到18歲所以除非是他有這個"},{"start":13802.049,"end":13821.464,"text":"無某身能力或者是說身心障礙或是就學那要不然的話這樣獨立申報這是第一個第二個呢在引進CFC也就是國外受控的這個企業那就是說它符合規定的它有一定的門檻規定如果符合規定不管它有沒有決議分配它就是要申報進來要申報納稅"},{"start":13823.966,"end":13824.306,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":13843.304,"end":13861.102,"text":"今年中所稅申報件數會比去年增加有機會到670萬件營所稅以年增3%來估計可能會落在109萬件我想請教次長說可不可以在這邊告訴大家今年營所稅會成長多少金額多少"},{"start":13861.842,"end":13877.451,"text":"跟委員報告,現在目前還在,今天還開始申報,所以我們還能到,基本上這樣子,我現在初步的這樣跟委員報告,就是說這樣去年的我們的上市櫃的,它的獲利是減少27%點多的,"},{"start":13880.212,"end":13908.3,"text":"另外去年的經濟成長率是降到1.31所以我們預估營所稅應該會略為往下修至於綜合所得稅那一部分綜合所得稅那一部分也是一樣因為上市櫃的公司營運比較差所以它分配到的股利也相對比較少但是它薪資上其實是往上拉的所以基本上我們估大概也是略為綜所稅會成長"},{"start":13915.642,"end":13933.009,"text":"其實稅收是政府的最大財源,超過八成全部都是稅收那2021年的實際總決算數超過2.38兆那稅收的部分就2.003兆元,是最大的項目高達占國家總收入的84%"},{"start":13935.231,"end":13941.499,"text":"政府在111年稅收超增最後一個人發6000元連續三年的超增總額超過1.28兆元"},{"start":13949.088,"end":13970.803,"text":"三年超過1.28兆那這是什麼狀況你可不可以告訴我為什麼會超出那麼多我跟委員報告我們在預算編列的時候是會考慮到很多因素比如像經濟生長率啊或者國內外的經濟情勢或者是說時針的情形跟稅務特性或者是說有一些像有些修法的一些成果那"},{"start":13973.727,"end":13986.141,"text":"預算編了以後到執行會有一段落差或大概一年多的落差所以在這個期間會有一些變化超增是經濟大幅度的成長或者是說我們稅制本身有問題"},{"start":13987.522,"end":14015.679,"text":"不是稅制的問題是因為估算的問題我覺得各國都有面臨同樣的問題因為在編列到執行的階段會有很大的變化所以那時候就是說實證數會比預算數超過比較多所以就是一開始就低估了所以變成超增那這個是行政疏失是不是不是因為這個東西這個東西其實我們都是依法克萃有時候就是很多東西真的很難去預估"},{"start":14017.02,"end":14033.177,"text":"但是我跟委員報告我們現在已經成立了就是估測的專案小組那也希望這個建立一個稅收的估算的模型希望能夠越來越準但是我在想就是說絕對不會有說人民吃緊或者政府緊吃這種狀況不會發生這種情況"},{"start":14035.8,"end":14058.78,"text":"這是現況這是現況已經產生的現況現在剛剛我們很多委員提到現在的貧富差距66.9倍嚇死人了所以現在政府超收我們也知道連續三年超徵那麼多1.28兆元那對於我們現在最關心的我們的勞工朋友我們所有的這些我們比較"},{"start":14059.921,"end":14062.123,"text":"跟委員報告不至於發生這種事因為為什麼呢?因為我們這些就是說時增數超過預算數的"},{"start":14084.966,"end":14092.873,"text":"那這些東西呢,基本上如果跟特別預算加起來的話,基本上還是赤字啦。好啦,謝謝次長,謝謝次長。次長請回。好,謝謝。接著請勞動部,勞動部我們的許次長。"},{"start":14106.979,"end":14122.919,"text":"許市長我國GDP的分配結構是由受僱人員報酬、營業營餘還有固定薪資消耗、生產及進口稅等四項組成受僱人員報酬就是多數民眾的勞務收入"},{"start":14125.081,"end":14142.305,"text":"勞務成果營業營餘就是企業放在口袋的錢從過去10年以來的趨勢可以看到受僱人員報酬占GDP比重持續下降在2022年低到只剩下43.9%企業營餘占GDP的34.4%"},{"start":14149.387,"end":14174.074,"text":"臺灣企業越來越有錢但是勞工越來越窮低薪、窮忙、貧困差距擴大我們蔡總統說過說勞工是他心中最軟的一塊但是心中最軟的一塊在做最硬的工作勞工的付出跟回報實際上就不成正比"},{"start":14175.287,"end":14197.947,"text":"那現在大家都是血汗勞工、廉價勞工臺灣就變成是最低薪資做最多事情然後還要負最多責任每個月可能還會被扣一些莫名其妙的錢所以臺灣勞工普遍的工作環境的現況就是這樣那高工時低薪水這種狀況要如何改變如何改善"},{"start":14199.448,"end":14221.888,"text":"謝謝顏委員我想跟委員報告蔡總統8年之內有不斷提高基本工資包括月薪跟時薪我們都大幅度的提高我們勞動部也有推出很多的方案讓我們的員工特別是青年員工可以透過勞工部的加值計畫包括說他是進修他取得各種的證照提升他個人的這個他相關的勞動的條件之後"},{"start":14225.771,"end":14226.271,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14247.056,"end":14247.736,"text":"臺灣是一個過勞之島根據勞動部的統計2022年臺灣受僱者平均每年工時"},{"start":14274.821,"end":14304.821,"text":"韓國1904"},{"start":14305.263,"end":14308.715,"text":"副成長請教次長調整基本薪資"},{"start":14310.066,"end":14337.703,"text":"有條跟沒條一樣啊工時那麼多然後薪資那麼低那調整基本薪資是不是因應這個物價上漲那這個會不會陷入一個所謂的薪資價格螺旋上漲這是一個很不好的現象是不是這樣子我跟委員報告我們臺灣勞工的工作薪資目前一週大概41點多小時這跟國際的標準其實相差不大"},{"start":14338.403,"end":14357.443,"text":"至於所謂的基本工資現在變成最低工資我們今年會召集委員會來討論把相關的因素都納進來包括剛剛委員講的物價調整指數或是其他相關的因素都會進來希望給勞工一個最基本的生活保障這我想是勞動部的責任"},{"start":14358.975,"end":14382.5,"text":"市長,民用薪資持續增加,但是實質反倒是衰退,都是衰退的,所以我們不應該跟人民玩這種數字遊戲。國民最關心的就是薪資,一定要增加民眾的收入,讓他們的生活得以受到一個保障,那才不會影響到整體社會的穩定跟發展。"},{"start":14384.42,"end":14385.2,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請主計長有請主計長"},{"start":14420.902,"end":14444.202,"text":"好,主計長好。主計長,就離開這個主計總處的一個職務啊,也是辛苦啊,過去8年。那可能最後一次質詢你,但我還是想說既然要離開了,真的可以好好的針對現況,給台灣社會一個真實的狀況,那也點出問題,我們期待說政府可以一次再繼續來解決問題啊。"},{"start":14446.052,"end":14473.307,"text":"今天特別召委這邊有講是說改善受僱人員報酬占GDP占比偏低的一個情況確實在你的報告裡面我們受僱人員的報酬是逐步的降低是越來越低那越來越低的一個情況你這邊也講到是說這個貧富差距標破66.9倍結果你有講到說最高最低比沒有意義"},{"start":14474.758,"end":14481.285,"text":"那一樣啊本席先講啊那最高最低的薪資平均其實也沒有意義啊"},{"start":14482.316,"end":14511.096,"text":"是不是對不是沒有意義啦他是一個參考的價值是新已經在放假了是不是沒有沒有啦我們會你剛講對還不對我的意思是說薪資那個會有那個有意義嗎對是有意義的最高跟最低比現在差了66.9倍沒有我的意思是薪資是流量這個是財富是存量兩個意見意思是不一樣的那好嘛"},{"start":14511.516,"end":14535.084,"text":"那我講的是說您之前公佈也公佈了說全體受僱人員的月薪總資啊平均是多少?月薪的總薪資是大概目前是大概五萬八千多塊嘛對五萬八千塊啊,兼長薪資是四萬五千多塊那你五萬八千多塊有意義嗎?"},{"start":14537.304,"end":14550.969,"text":"當然有啊 那個是一個平均數啊平均數那很多人就馬上就自首啊說抱歉啊我們拉低了全台灣的月薪平均啊那個是所以我們每年都會公佈一次中位數中位數是多少中位數現在是"},{"start":14556.03,"end":14583.797,"text":"年薪差不多到60這個是這個一年的中位數大概是60萬相對於這個是每個月大概是5萬塊中位數那一個是個總薪資謝謝是嗎是所以是不是其實我們偏低我們受僱人員很多的受僱人員其實他的薪資普遍來講還是偏低他那個低到是說他沒有政府宣傳的那麼的好"},{"start":14584.677,"end":14605.901,"text":"我們沒有宣傳我們的公布沒有宣傳嗎?我們每一次聽到民進黨政府都講說哇股市上萬點多久了現在台灣經濟最好的狀況讓大家覺得說好像每個人都賺錢只有我沒賺錢那個是講股市我們的薪資我們是每個月公布我們也沒有說什麼去說什麼宣傳主計總處指咒"},{"start":14612.101,"end":14632.812,"text":"這個是什麼統計資料給大家參考的我們不做宣傳謝謝我們不做宣傳可是你們的資料拿出來都會讓大家覺得是說這就有誤導嫌疑啊就會讓大家覺得是說美化數字啊我們沒有美化數字我們把實際的數字公佈出來我要美化數字我前天就不會公佈財財富分配謝謝"},{"start":14635.202,"end":14662.915,"text":"所以這還公布財富分配還是得證是不是很得意喔我沒有說得證我是覺得要有這一個資料讓大家好做決策謝謝同意啊本席同意啊所以說為什麼這是30年才出來這樣的一個資料在未來有講是說4年做一次是不是我希望這個樣子但是有新的團隊的決策那不應該更滾動檢討嗎你是4年一次是認為是說要幫這個"},{"start":14665.818,"end":14683.383,"text":"執政的執政黨打分數是不是用這樣的一個數字來去不是幫執政黨打分數那是你一次啊我們做統計指示說把適當的允當的資料顯示出來我們主計你也知道具有獨立性把它做一個數字公佈沒錯啊"},{"start":14683.723,"end":14704.259,"text":"我就是認為說主計有獨立性,主計應該專業,主計應該客觀,主計應該不分任何黨派,如期如實的公佈數字我們的統計人員他也沒有任何政黨傾向,只有全部主計總處一萬多個人裡面只有兩個是政務官,其他都不是,謝謝"},{"start":14706.178,"end":14724.043,"text":"所以主計長你剛有講那未來如果說這樣的一個數字你說4年可以公佈是不是希望希望因為那個有幾年公佈由新的團隊來決定我希望這4年公佈一次好那最後本市也要問就是說"},{"start":14725.063,"end":14738.334,"text":"其實去年立法院有進行類似的專案報告也是一樣在去年的10月底也有說受僱人員報酬占GDP比例創新低貧富差距10年新高"},{"start":14740.993,"end":14763.142,"text":"當時也有提到說很多人認為是說應該要做加薪減稅但這個政策經濟部2016年就已經提出來了但這10年過去了還是沒有做一個改善那個我覺得我跟委員報告一下政策是由各部會來做所以這個是要加薪要減稅應該是相關部會來表示意見比較恰當"},{"start":14764.783,"end":14781.005,"text":"主計長本期最後只想要請教就你這邊要離開之前你來客觀公允以主計長的身份最後要離開講一下到底我們現在臺灣面臨受僱人員薪資占GDP的比例"},{"start":14782.02,"end":14806.882,"text":"持續的往下低啊對那個你又講是說財富重分配是要很謹慎考慮啊那這樣解方是什麼對那個我跟各位講一下我們尊重原則上我們要尊重市場制度沒有解方對不是但是要對於弱勢的族群對於弱勢的族群要給予一個是什麼政策上的一個照顧"},{"start":14807.502,"end":14807.822,"text":"洪委員快點"},{"start":14834.064,"end":14858.8,"text":"謝謝我們早晚已經站起來說勞動節但是因為這個是公務人員不受勞保的保障但是我們不要為難我們的同仁同意啦我不要為難所有同仁所以還是一樣祝大家勞動節快樂但是真的主計長我們未來一樣還是台灣人民秉持著良心好好的發出你的能夠建言的建言謝謝謝謝黃孟台委員的質詢緊接著我們請楊瓊英委員質詢"},{"start":14874.911,"end":14876.879,"text":"謝主席本席想邀請主計長有請主計長"},{"start":14887.67,"end":14914.693,"text":"主席長好我想近十年我國的這個經濟成長率呢那在2021年的時候GDP它是創了紀錄6.53但是人民的貧窮感是越來越深人民的貧窮感越來越深在這樣的情況之下物價的一個衝擊上漲的衝擊實質薪資它是甩不開的一個負成長"},{"start":14915.994,"end":14940.954,"text":"那造成了可分配的所得呢 減少之外我看了主計總處你三個薪資的這個指標呢我們也發現個人所得的差距以及經常性薪資占比勞務這個報酬的占的這個GDP比重他是降到歷史新低他降到了43.03"},{"start":14942.975,"end":14969.022,"text":"那你的營業銀額呢?占了36.53,它是歷史新高2016年的時候我們受僱人員的報酬占比,GDP比重是44.09你的營業銀額占比是35.06可見你的主要分配都器重在企業導致我們忽略了勞工的失衡狀態"},{"start":14970.402,"end":14998.091,"text":"我又聽到昨天說我們第一季的平均值薪資八萬多人民都非常的嘩然那個是我跟妳講那個是總經過了大家說是因為包括年終所以如果這樣子的一個宣示沒有沒有那個是外界的他們講你覺得這樣好嗎我們也有公佈金長薪資只是大家沒有引用而已我們也有公佈金長薪所以主計長"},{"start":14999.131,"end":15025.797,"text":"大家對於數字非常的敏感如果這美化數字連年終獎金都把它包括進來說每一個人的平均薪資八萬多每一個人都昏倒了只是有些人一定要挑那個數字來罵主計總處不是要罵主計總處而是告訴你人民對於數字他非常的敏感因為人民痛苦啊"},{"start":15026.377,"end":15042.896,"text":"主計長 針對於目前我們勞工實質薪資的成長它追不上產業所產生出來的一個成長失衡越來越嚴重那你認為我們要怎麼應對"},{"start":15043.997,"end":15065.749,"text":"跟那個委員報告一下就是我剛才所講的我們尊重市場支柱但對於弱勢族群的話應該是給予他的薪資像最低工資啦像給予他夠像社會福利的一個補助啦所以也是我們你把那個方案給本席好不好落差越來越大我們要怎麼樣的能力可以好好生活你們去盤點一下"},{"start":15067.37,"end":15068.191,"text":"我們速發布的111政府專屬的短碼簡訊平台"},{"start":15089.707,"end":15092.709,"text":"你認為目前的狀態還是叫我們人民說你最好打電話向國書局確認你有沒有被詐騙的風險"},{"start":15108.852,"end":15122.381,"text":"那你本來是為了方便有了這個平台但是我們仍舊叫人家說你要打電話問問看他是不是詐騙的那是不是對這個平台沒有信心呢我們要怎麼樣去加強讓人民也便利"},{"start":15123.818,"end":15134.243,"text":"跟委員報告這個這個平台這個簡訊平台其實就是政府的確定是政府的平台了沒有說還要再去求證有啊你們都會叫人家說你還是打個電話確認是不是真的還是有很多人這樣說我想是個案啦有什麼個案很多"},{"start":15143.067,"end":15167.581,"text":"我主要告訴你這個就是說政府速發部有這個平台你們也搭上去那要讓民眾真正能夠安心我們很多的依化這是必要走的但是我是請你們說本席請你們說你再去宣導你要怎麼樣認證因為大家接到電話簡訊會怕是假的那你是不是你們可以製造怎麼樣的認證讓民眾在這一通簡訊接到的時候正確"},{"start":15172.023,"end":15197.117,"text":"就是我們政府的是是是這個很重要啊這個我們會加強宣導這個我們會加強宣導對不對你除了加強宣導你也要去制定啊讓民眾可以辨識清楚這是政府告訴我的是是是謝謝委員提醒好不好你們去研討好不好不要讓連民眾接到的我還要去打電話真的假的好不好第一個辨識要去清楚第二個多宣導好不好最後一個勞動部"},{"start":15198.938,"end":15221.428,"text":"4月28日是國際工商日聽到這個數字都很難過我們去年每平均1.2億天就有一個勞工的職災因為今天五一勞動節當神仙每10個人就有2.7人是因為重大職災而死亡在這樣子的情況之下日本他是1.5人英國0.8"},{"start":15223.889,"end":15241.815,"text":"荷蘭是0.3所以在這邊本席要請教臺灣的職災發生的這樣的情況我們勞動部要怎麼樣職安屬的一個落實它的形塑職安文化你那個形塑職安文化是非常的重要請教"},{"start":15243.46,"end":15266.268,"text":"謝謝楊委員,楊委員這個非常關心這個臺灣紫災的事情我們勞動部也是將心比心自己的家人發生這個事情都很難過所以我們要設定一個10年的臺灣勞災減半計畫我們希望特別是嚴重的像這個營造業占的紫災的一半以上那我們的營造業在他的這個高工吊掛一定要嚴格執行"},{"start":15267.568,"end":15291.969,"text":"因為時間的關係我要尊重主席所以勞動部請你跟相關的產業去討論他們的困難點在哪裡你們該當要唆訊要怎麼樣協助把這個數字降下來我們也希望在勞動節的今天可以送給我們勞工一個安全的職場安全的工作的一個環境跟能力"},{"start":15292.85,"end":15293.15,"text":"請鄭天才委員質詢"},{"start":15339,"end":15342.622,"text":"主席、各位委員,請主計長還有國發會的師傅主委主計長好,辛苦了"},{"start":15350.782,"end":15371.574,"text":"不會啦,看到委員很高興謝謝這個今年啊這個0403地震很快的陳院長在4月4號就到花蓮視察災情當天就宣布主計總處已經撥了3億請問一下這個主計長"},{"start":15377.369,"end":15403.999,"text":"到現在為止已經快滿一個月了這個主計總處現在已經除了這3億之外還沒有撥幾個那個跟那個委員報告一下那個3億在當天早上下午4月3號下午5點鐘以前我們就跟財政部一起努力就撥到臺灣銀行花年昏朗的戶頭只是他們那一天不上班過天又放假"},{"start":15405.179,"end":15425.035,"text":"所以事實上我們當天就撥下去這個錢以後要撥多少是他們要把那個是怎麼樣需求多少已經用了多少而且這個是花蓮縣政府也有所謂的災害準備金大概4億再加上3億他們所需要的只要有報上來"},{"start":15426.036,"end":15440.185,"text":"我們的經過審核以後我們就會繼續補,謝謝好,所以現在只播了3億嗎?對好好,我們看25年前25年前的民國88年的9月21號的921震災主計總處當時叫主計處那時候是委主計長這個你的前輩"},{"start":15456.229,"end":15472.827,"text":"當時在9月22號一開始先撥了4億然後緊接著一看到災情又再增加這個臺東縣政府、南投縣政府又再增加一直到"},{"start":15474.521,"end":15495.446,"text":"當天第二天總共增加到撥款53億當然25年前的物價指數各方面53億是非常非常大要跟現在的這個53億是有差很多所以這個部分這個是主動我是建議這個主計總處主動來協助"},{"start":15500.467,"end":15514.176,"text":"那我請教一下這個主計長,這個現在啊,到底我們因為副院長開了幾次會議嘛,後來現在我也開了很多次會議"},{"start":15516.099,"end":15532.571,"text":"現在到底準備了多少錢我們是有匡列大概是兩百多億有匡列兩百多億那個兩百多億我們將來也許說在明天就可能成立一個方案有國發會提案來報告"},{"start":15534.552,"end":15536.673,"text":"師傅主委剛剛主計長有提到國發會這個很有默契就馬上就請你"},{"start":15558.228,"end":15558.808,"text":"主席主席長"},{"start":15588.911,"end":15614.331,"text":"這個因為現在花蓮縣政府的公務人員都很忙都非常忙所以為什麼當初九二一會主動播就是因為很忙對我知道我知道所以這個部分我又舉一個例子莫拉克颱風風災災禍重建的特別條例這是民國98年"},{"start":15617.148,"end":15624.834,"text":"8月20日88峰災一樣當天撥很多錢我就不再細數了為了這個訂特別條例行政院8月20日8月20日就把經過行政院會通過送到立法院這個特別條例"},{"start":15644.619,"end":15668.956,"text":"我們看非常非常快立法院馬上就審查8月28號就公布施行所以不到一個月的時間所以這個部分都是我們過去都很有經驗結果這次的經驗好像倒退了我們有時候就那個"},{"start":15669.976,"end":15698.104,"text":"特別條例做預算的編列的話要有數據資料那我們也希望也希望也要有那個數據資料因為你有數據資料你才能夠編列預算怎麼會有數據我剛剛講了八八風災八月八號喔八月二十八號那是條例喔條例是沒有數據啦他那個是條例並沒有預算那我們這一次到明天要公布的"},{"start":15698.844,"end":15704.865,"text":"當然你現在是根據災害防救法57條可以用第二一倍金可以用災害準備金然後災害防救法第58條"},{"start":15723.928,"end":15751.642,"text":"然後你也可以依依算法第83條重大災害的時候就可以提出特別預算所以這個部分我只是建議這個我們的主計處的公務員因為主計長很忙啊不會不會不會這個人民的事情我會擺在第一位既然講了兩百億還是兩百五十億現在都媒體報導趕快付諸實施好不好"},{"start":15752.745,"end":15776.845,"text":"我們現在就已經在做了而不是說要通過特別條例再做我知道現在法律已經周全了因為之前的案例所以才會有需修改所以不必特別條例才來做也不必要變特別預算才做我們現在就可以做明天只是通過一個方案 謝謝我的意思是說已經比以前是要立法"},{"start":15783.342,"end":15808.803,"text":"以前要立法然後立法的那麼快我現在是不用立法我剛剛有講了災害防救法有了預算法83條也有了所以還要加快預算法83條要特別條例要特別預算要要要這個是怎麼要特別預算我知道我知道所以既然災害準備金夠"},{"start":15809.79,"end":15810.21,"text":"主席請勞動部的次長"},{"start":15847.689,"end":15871.685,"text":"市長好今天五一勞動節因為政府機關也沒有放假就讓這些很多勞工朋友職員都要跟著我們一起來工作一起來上班實際上是很辛苦這個假的事情可能你們要好好考慮全國可能要一致這樣才比較方便那我想請問你這個勞工節我們當然要特別講這個勞工權益的議題什麼叫做基本工資部長"},{"start":15874.986,"end":15899.716,"text":"向基本工資應改為最低工資當時基本工資希望說依照我們社會各種的因素綜合考量之後一個勞工在領這樣子的薪水他可以基本上現在多少錢現在我們調到兩萬七千四百七十元兩萬二七四七零那你知道什麼叫第一佳績嗎基本的第一佳績大概就是"},{"start":15900.996,"end":15920.303,"text":"在離島或是比較偏遠的地方,他工作的關係給他一些鼓勵對,因為這個地理環境,比如台灣要調過去特別辛苦,所以又給一點第一家局那你覺得,市長財政部也上來一下,這個基本工資第一家局跟基本工資,基本工資是不是應該把第一家局算進去?是內涵還外加?"},{"start":15924.876,"end":15943.292,"text":"我跟陳委員報告就是他這個第一佳績是列為工資的一部分列為工資的那算不算是你說最低算不算最低工資算不算進去就是說比如說我給你一萬塊然後再一個理由因為你在離島所以再給你一萬七然後就算有符合最低工資你說最低工資嗎"},{"start":15944.333,"end":15961.106,"text":"對,我跟陳委員報告這個就是說在算基本工資後他會把他的地域佳績算進來是他工資的一份那所以如果沒有地域佳績員如果同樣一個工作像那天我們在這裡問財政部嘛他同樣一個工作如果在外島調過來我說外島是指台灣啦台灣島調過來啦調到金門島來跟這個金門本島來講的話那因為離島是外島調過來才有嘛台灣島調到金門島才有"},{"start":15971.394,"end":15999.697,"text":"那所以說假設有一個人比如你們兩位次長齁那你是本來就在金門所以你就要領 假設你們都領最低工資領兩萬七嘛那我們財政部的次長是在台灣他從台灣調到金門來的那他說他的他應該領兩萬七那他是含他的離島一萬一萬的加給好了所以他應該是領一萬就對了他的工資就是一萬就對了然後再加上一萬一萬七再加上一萬這樣可以嗎你們的基本就會不一樣喔"},{"start":16000.731,"end":16015.013,"text":"你女朋友的我還說什麼吧是是對不對所以他應該是領一萬一萬七然後再將外島的家籍就地域家籍一萬就兩萬七那以後他調回台灣他不就領一萬七女朋友的我在說什麼嗎是不我想那你給我給你"},{"start":16017.039,"end":16044.759,"text":"我想跟陳委員報告這個有關於基本工資當時我們各種的計算方式沒有我們現在叫最低工資我們要把它講最低工資應該是兩萬七嘛兩萬七千多啦沒錯嘛你看看我們金門縣這是政府單位喔公營事業作業員的工資喔這還是金門縣合給行政院的你看那個這種就是作業員啦所以從第一級到第36級你們這個第一級的最低的工資才一萬四千六百啊"},{"start":16046.08,"end":16059.087,"text":"這樣也能準嗎?勞動部你沒有意見嗎?到了17級都還是26,880到了18級以上才是27,650啊我們金門這個很多作業員啊1到36都有啊你知道我在說什麼嗎?所以在金門縣政府的那些公營事業作業員他們的基本工資是也有一萬四的啦也有兩萬一的啦阿你有合法嗎?政府單位帶頭違法"},{"start":16075.404,"end":16092.896,"text":"我跟陳委員報告他這個部分還要再加上他的這個剛剛講的就是你說那個離島佳績嗎對 已經超出了所以這個作業如果今天調到台灣去原來假設他是我們隨便舉他第10集好了兩萬一千五百一十啦兩百八十個新臨兩萬一千五百一他調到台灣去以後他就領兩萬一千五百一喔"},{"start":16094.244,"end":16110.101,"text":"因為他到金門加了一萬才會變三萬一啊舉例那他以後掉到台灣他就領兩萬一喔這樣合不合法一樣他還是要在基本工資以上所以他掉到台灣去掉到台灣倒來啊就變成兩萬一再加上六千那好他再掉回來呢"},{"start":16113.506,"end":16125.412,"text":"他掉下來就變成兩萬七再掉回來再加一萬就三萬七所以要鼓勵金門的這個這個作業員天掉到台灣來先把他符合基本沒有離島家籍的最低工資他再掉回來再加上離島家籍"},{"start":16126.843,"end":16148.592,"text":"你聽得懂這個荒謬處嗎因為我為什麼請財政部市長站在這裡因為有些公營事業單位啦不過你們都有符合啦所以沒有這個問題我是要讓這一樣是方工股銀行也在金門嘛他們是都有符合啦我們金門這個作業員這個沒有符合而且還送到你們合訂喔送到你們行政院來這個你們勞動部到底有沒有重視勞工權益啊金門的這個作業員"},{"start":16152.776,"end":16180.656,"text":"沒有符合最低工資欸有領兩萬一的欸 縣政府的我知道那個成員對這議題非常關心那之前我們會轉給金門縣政府不是 主管單位金門縣政府是發錢的以後那個任何一個單位如果不符合最低工資我們來這邊質詢你也說我們轉給那個公司讓他來問你們是主管單位啊不符合最低工資不是你們要去糾局啊或是去要求嗎"},{"start":16182.517,"end":16208.183,"text":"以目前的基本公司的算法他加上地域佳績所以任何一個公司在金門那我們講清楚任何一個公司在金門以後就是說我請人的話就是兩萬塊再加上因為現在離島價大概是九千算一萬好了以後我請人就是我發的公告就是減一萬兩萬七一萬七我真人一萬七然後說但是我沒有外島佳績離島佳績再多給你一萬塊這樣可以就對了以後這樣公告可以喔"},{"start":16208.843,"end":16221.479,"text":"公告一定要在基本形式下沒有這就是這樣子嘛你剛說這樣子可以的我要知道你的標準我不是說這樣子可以就是以後我招人我那一家民營企業任何企業在金門的在離島的我說我給薪水就是一萬七但是我們另外再給你離島加給一萬塊可以喔"},{"start":16226.233,"end":16245.067,"text":"您了解我在說什麼嗎?我可以理解現在就是說可以這樣子喔?可以這樣子喔?你告訴我可以就好不然可以嗎?你要招人的時候對對我招人我就講清楚嘛以後我的工資就是給1萬7另外給李立導這是違反我們基本工資的規則1萬就符合2萬7嘛所以以後到金門區的廠商記者就是反正用1萬7起跳這樣是不是?"},{"start":16246.448,"end":16265.401,"text":"我想這個部分就是這樣子嗎?因為有的公司是台灣本島也有分行金門也有分行那以後調回台灣去再另外給就對了你聽得懂我在說什麼吧?我可以理解你這個事情什麼時候幫我檢討一下?是我想我會把把第一佳績排除在基本工資的計算之外你兩週內給我檢討好嗎?"},{"start":16267.894,"end":16292.688,"text":"這部分我們請相關委員來研究研究看看好不好這樣不符合最低工資嘛對不對換第一概念的目的是幹嘛因為就是說那裡辛苦所以你調過去特別給你嘛那你把它算在基本公司那跟有的公司一樣啊有的公司很不注重勞動權益都這樣子啊給你講這個ABCD加一加就有這麼多錢對不對你們勞動部不能做這種示範嘛對尤其在政府部門不能這樣做好嗎是的"},{"start":16294.21,"end":16306.02,"text":"好 謝謝來那個財政部那個逐序那個投資特別扣除額的部分以前是全部69年全部免稅78年12萬現在大概現在是27萬現在進入這個升息和高通膨這個都沒有檢討那以前你看門檻基本工資以嚴基本工資就最低是8800現在27000那現在的話這個整個物價通膨很嚴重"},{"start":16318.672,"end":16319.633,"text":"目前的儲蓄投資特別扣除的是27萬"},{"start":16335.713,"end":16356.222,"text":"如果按照目前的一年期的定期存款利率1.715來算的話換算的話大概他的存款大概是一千差不多一千六百萬對一千多萬我們說的是靠利息收入來過活的人嘛但是相對來講他的資歷比一般人高很多我們要說這個免稅一千多萬"},{"start":16357.142,"end":16378.012,"text":"退休事實上也是不夠用嘛那有人沒有在退休沒有生存沒有沒有在謀生的這個能力嘛但是靠那個有人比較保守嘛就是靠這樣子難道你鼓勵他當你有1000多還不錯很多鼓勵他再投這個ETF啊投什麼這樣風險也很高嘛有人就是比較穩健的嘛因為這的確是一些退休的一些軍工叫錢很少啊"},{"start":16378.832,"end":16398.684,"text":"你們這個部分是不是可以檢討一下因為畢竟整個有沒有整個已經70幾年了很多年了也應該可以檢討啊這部分我們當然會帶回去了研究一下好嗎當然基本上我是覺得還是要考慮到恆平性當然你要考慮恆平性但你要考慮整個時空環境改變"},{"start":16399.344,"end":16427.942,"text":"市公環境改變物價也改變當初的最低工資也改變所有事情都應該要思考一下好嗎但是他跟一般的民眾就是比較弱勢的還是他的資歷還是好很多啦你整個整個兩個禮拜內給我一個報告好嗎一個月好一個月好好一個月好謝謝主計長那個我們對不起主計長主計長時間不是吧剩30秒剩下40秒等一下走路的時間要扣掉"},{"start":16429.363,"end":16455.08,"text":"我要請問你來來我上次一直問你金門財力調整喔到520齁之前這個我希望齁你看人家內政部林右昌部長對不對要退以前里長一個半月的年終獎金對不對體察民意那個要內政部提出來我現在不再講這個我在問你的事情我只是舉例給你聽不用急你們的主計總處的陳富堅副主計長喔"},{"start":16456.221,"end":16482.518,"text":"在這個我們金門縣有開一個首長會議有在說金門的財力分級的問題那張景森政委也覺得金門的財力分為這個第三級是不合理的張政委有找你們副主計長陳慧娟來開會你知道這件事吧我當然知道他有叫我們好好研究我們一定會好好研究一定會好好研究那在520之前研究出來可以嗎不然你都要那個退休那個是我"},{"start":16483.839,"end":16507.079,"text":"今天還有20天我會交代下一任的主計長他會好好的研究這樣為德不足啊林右昌要下任前都把1萬5這個1.5個月連中獎都弄出來了那個是由我要我同意他才可以喊那個所以你還不同意來來來問一下你不同意對不對那你同意嗎那你同意嗎"},{"start":16510.762,"end":16510.782,"text":"陳委員"},{"start":16524.617,"end":16525.398,"text":"接著請黃秀芳委員質詢"},{"start":16558.623,"end":16563.2,"text":"謝謝主席我們請財政部次長跟勞動部次長要請阮次跟徐次"},{"start":16568.758,"end":16587.734,"text":"市長好市長我先就過去30年我們受僱人員的這個報酬占GDP比重是緩步在下滑那我想請教就是說我們一般人會覺得最近台灣這幾年的這個經濟果實應該是蠻豐碩的可是大部分的國民是無感"},{"start":16588.615,"end":16611.393,"text":"那我們也看到說股市上兩萬點可是民眾還是無感那我想請教說因為大家會覺得說好像是在特定的產業可能這個經濟的這個果實好像是在特定的產業那一般的中小企業或者是傳統產業其實整個經濟不是那麼的那麼的好啦那我想請教就是說"},{"start":16613.294,"end":16626.877,"text":"第一個我們在財政部這邊在這幾年有一個中小企業的加薪抵稅那這個加薪抵稅我想請教就是說在這幾年當中這個成果到底是怎樣"},{"start":16627.952,"end":16644.125,"text":"成果當然不是很好,我覺得有幾點原因,第一個可能它有一些限制,就是有一些門檻的限制第二個可能是它中小企業它的結構的問題"},{"start":16645.663,"end":16652.965,"text":"因為62%基本上都是擴達書審另外25%是獨自合夥本來就是不用繳稅其他的是有結算申報但是稅負平均大概5萬多市長你剛剛講了幾個問題其中一個可能就是要書審"},{"start":16670.69,"end":16695.104,"text":"可能就是說這些中小企業他們也會擔心我今天如果申請這個加薪抵稅的話那你們這邊會不會是擴大疏省嚴加疏省那可能就在那個稅就是可能他可能又要補稅或要繳更多的稅所以我是不是可以請教我們的次長針對這一部分怎麼樣去鼓勵我們的中小企業來運用"},{"start":16696.585,"end":16713.758,"text":"我們這個加薪抵稅這樣的一個我們認為說這個可能對我們一般的勞工可能會比較好可是好像實際的這個成果不是那麼的好所以是不是可以針對你們現在目前遇到的問題然後可以做一些改善"},{"start":16714.178,"end":16714.698,"text":"所以他就會擔心啊"},{"start":16729.864,"end":16746.168,"text":"所以他基本現在就是這樣做所以是因為這樣子所以才會造成這個你會覺得說成效不彰嗎?我們會合理來課除非是比如說被檢舉或者是說他申報錯誤或者是說他案件很複雜這種才會去抽查那基本上就是照申報核定"},{"start":16752.731,"end":16773.511,"text":"所以我們要來如果是說這個中小企業發展條例新的規定通過以後我們會責成我們的國稅局會充分來宣導就是讓他們不要因為說怕變成不是疏寸的就變成好像被查稅或什麼之類我們會盡量來宣導"},{"start":16775.353,"end":16789.588,"text":"我希望能夠既然有提出這樣子一個加薪抵稅的這樣的一個制度那當然就是你們要廣為宣傳那一般中小企業擔心的問題我覺得你們應該也要去解決接下來我想請教這個勞動部次長"},{"start":16796.615,"end":16812.827,"text":"我們現在目前就是說在113年的這個最低工資月薪是27470那勞動部在去年6月也有公布就是出任人員可能是剛剛這個出任人員的這個薪資平均是34000"},{"start":16814.728,"end":16833.134,"text":"其中有四分之一是新鮮人一般的新鮮人領的最低工資那剛剛我有特別提到就是說我們的這個中小企業我們希望說能夠提出來這個政策加薪抵稅的這個政策當然我們也希望就是說勞動部"},{"start":16834.474,"end":16852.76,"text":"不只是勞動部跟財政部我們應該是要一起把這個我們目前一般民眾覺得說我們台灣這個低薪的這個問題能夠解決這個應該是要跨部會去解決啦所以我希望說勞動部針對這部分你是不是可以說明一下你們未來要怎麼做"},{"start":16854.5,"end":16881.051,"text":"好 謝謝黃議員非常關心這個青年有些部分他的起薪比較低的問題那我們現在幾個方案包括說未來徵才如果說是低於這個3萬5他必須要有些說明這個部分我們在這個政策上面已經開始執行另外我們也鼓勵說這個青年本身他可以加持他自己的這個比如說他去鼓勵他多考各種證照增加他雇用的比例"},{"start":16882.031,"end":16883.152,"text":"中小企業得到政府支持"},{"start":16900.744,"end":16918.314,"text":"我想講的今天是五一勞動節那全台灣有1142萬的勞工那其中有六成就業他們可能都是往這個服務業那服務業我們知道說一般的服務業傳統服務業其實薪資是偏低的"},{"start":16919.074,"end":16943.352,"text":"那這個剛剛有提到大學的畢業生有九成也是往這個服務業這方面去走所以我們希望就是說政府針對我們所有社會新鮮人的這個低薪的這個議題我覺得應該是要跨部會去解決那再來就是說我們這個受僱人員報酬占GDP比重是"},{"start":16944.173,"end":16972.114,"text":"主念下滑其實我覺得這個應該也要去解決的齁經濟的這個果實經濟豐碩的這個果實應該是企業主跟所有的勞工一起分享的啦好不好好我們一起來鼓勵謝謝謝謝黃雄煌委員質詢緊接著請何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員不在謝亦鳳委員謝亦鳳委員謝亦鳳委員謝亦鳳委員不在鄭志前委員鄭志前委員鄭志前委員不在游皓游皓游皓游皓委員不在賴玉珍委員賴玉珍委員賴玉珍委員不在"},{"start":16972.694,"end":16974.875,"text":"今天登記發言委員均與詢答完畢本次會議做如下決定一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員諮詢及"},{"start":16987.785,"end":17006.651,"text":"委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資訊,請相關部會於一周內以書面答覆,委員另有要求期限從其所定。委員陳冠廷所提書面質詢,列入紀錄刊登公報,並請相關部會以書面答覆。"},{"start":17007.731,"end":17021.237,"text":"本次會議議程已進行完畢,堂友不在場委員補題書面質詢,一併列入紀錄,刊登公報,並請議事人員協志處理。散會。祝大家勞動節快樂!"},{"start":17036.105,"end":17036.585,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"151994","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151994","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bcebd3d988ffcd2651e4149ad024bf7a855be169921a0a717792d42014cb10e305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:58:33 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一) 委員傅崐萁等33 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員傅崐萁等41 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 委員洪孟楷等25 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、 ( 四 ) 委員翁曉玲等 18 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案件,其中一人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,其中一人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織"},{"start":53.624,"end":55.265,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":82.515,"end":110.433,"text":"7月31號你有講說你到期了你也不續任是不是?那其他三位委員呢?如果說現在我們看起來昨天行政院提出來的名單根本就是跟媒體報導一模一樣之前在帶風向、測風向還有媒體大亨介入斧鑿斑斑這樣的名單送來國會要國會同意根本就痴心妄想"},{"start":111.451,"end":139.038,"text":"所以逼國會要把這個名單退回既然我們國會要把這個名單退回有可能到7月31號到任之前委員還不容易產生那其他三位委員他們現在的態度是什麼這可能要問他們個人的意願那您沒有掌握嗎基本上來講我們學界的委員應該都會想回去了只是說至於其他我們翁副主委他因為現在被提名為主委他會不會留下來這要問他才清楚"},{"start":139.978,"end":156.63,"text":"所以其他委員除了你以外學界的委員也都會離開表達這種意見但是這個最重要意見要問他們才清楚不要讓本席再看到不要讓國人再看到7月31號之後你們幾位委員還進入NCC"},{"start":157.654,"end":159.656,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":174.491,"end":197.115,"text":"之前有講說要調閱相關資料結果主委回覆說是跟委員有討論過所以說暫不提供資料是不是我們當然這個是重大的事情我們跟委員報告過不過調閱本身很多都是發函你的發函是經過所有委員的同意發函沒有我們內部討論因為這是行政事項所以我們有主委來處理"},{"start":201.621,"end":207.607,"text":"內部討論嗎?內部討論有經過相關的委員會議程嗎?那你們怎麼討論?個別委員?你們有召集委員?還是問?簽合公文?不用簽合公文啊,我們內部討論交換過,這個接下來要怎麼去梳理啊?"},{"start":223.171,"end":233.185,"text":"本席特別看了一下你們在每個禮拜三下午的委員會的時候也沒有召開針對這部分的相關議程所以"},{"start":234.468,"end":253.705,"text":"根本就是主委一個人決定,讓本席合理懷疑根本就是主委一個人決定,跟委員是不是所有都知道其實是有相違背的。」這個不是在我們組織法第九條裡面所稱的提到委員會決議的事項嗎?所以我們有接到文以後我們也跟委員說文報告所以內部有經過討論交換意見過。"},{"start":256.698,"end":257.68,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":271.087,"end":290.086,"text":"交通委員會之前上一屆在交通委員會四年每一次質詢的時候本席也希望就事論事但是讓國人最不滿意以及讓國人沒有信賴的NCC一直逐段上升變成是最不滿意的機關前三名主委真的難辭其咎我也同意剛剛朝委的講法"},{"start":291.144,"end":309.995,"text":"制度設計出來一定都是有符合當時的一個時空環境但如果人故意要去知法犯法玩法的話什麼樣制度都有漏洞為什麼今天要修法我本席為什麼要提出來我就直接當面告訴你"},{"start":310.675,"end":338.173,"text":"就是因為要防小人就是因為當初制度設計的時候沒有想到說有執政者可以那麼的厚顏無恥到濫用這樣的一個制度也因此我們才要來修正法令修正制度讓制度更加的完善這個是法治精神這也請主委要尊重立法院修法是立法委員的職責不是你一句講說不用修法就不用修法為什麼要修法"},{"start":338.533,"end":360.084,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第21會期司法"},{"start":362.911,"end":391.341,"text":"講出來,把禁電視相關的內幕講出來,再把自己過去的所作所為好好的反省,這叫除三害。但沒想到你沒有除。現在看起來你一個人拔刀拔劍出來環顧左右,變成孤單,一個人的武林。未來卸任之後,不知道你要不要持續跑法院,不要變成是比悲傷還悲傷的事。"},{"start":392.762,"end":394.905,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"151993","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151993","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b476575e16c5df3b11e4149ad024bf7a855be169921a0a717153008d9278d26895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"12:36:56 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12:43:44","影片長度":"00:06:48","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員傅崐萁等41人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1"},"duration":408,"end_time":"2024-05-01T12:43:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T12:36:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1030,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（12時37分）謝謝主席。我們有請陳主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：徐委員好。"],["徐委員富癸：主委辛苦了。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝。"],["徐委員富癸：我記得上一次我們在交通委員會的時候，我也有質詢過主委，主委有說確定要回去學校教書嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我到7月31日任期結束之後，8月1日就去學校。"],["徐委員富癸：很堅定？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["徐委員富癸：因為這個政治的羅馬競技場實在是讓人看了搖頭，當老師比較單純。我昨天回屏東，有很多的鄉親也知道今天我們要來針對NCC組織法做修正，很多鄉親要我遇到你時要給你鼓勵，有人說：不要做的最大，所以我請主委要堅持你的專業跟獨立性，該做的就要做，那你未來的歷史定位，我相信大家也會對你肯定。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：非常感謝。"],["徐委員富癸：這一次我們也很遺憾，國民黨委員提出的這個版本，不僅是走回頭路，而且又把違憲的事情又重提一次，所以我在這邊也是要請教主委，主委，針對這一次國民黨委員提出的版本，你個人的看法如何？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個是走回頭路，因為NCC這個獨立機關的設計，是儘量讓它中立，去政治化，然後多元，如果按政黨比例來決定人事，就是把政黨的相關影響力又加入到獨立機關內部，這跟它本質上就是有衝突，所以當時大法官才會解釋說這個本身有違憲的問題。"],["徐委員富癸：因為本席也是媒體出身，我記得在唸書的時候老師都教導我們報導要很公正、客觀，這個原則應該也一樣運用在這樣子的準則上面，我們不管是在什麼樣的職務上面，這一點都是我們要堅持的地方。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["徐委員富癸：尤其這次國民黨委員提出的修正案裡面有一個更離譜的，就是免職的規定，包含主委、副主委及委員，只要有四種以上情形，包括廢弛職務、因案受羈押或經起訴，甚至有其他影響機關信譽及個人執行職務正當性之失職行為，得經立法院連署成案，經過不信任投票，予以免職。哇！這茲事體大。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["徐委員富癸：我請教主委，NCC一年的業務量聽說是四萬到六萬件左右。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["徐委員富癸：如果是這樣子的話，動輒把NCC委員免職掉，會不會有影響？尤其我們剛剛提到的一些高強度的監理作為，包含打詐的作為，這些業務會不會受影響？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然會。因為簡單來說，就是我們的組織法裡面規定，獨立機關要行使職權是不受政治干預，那你看這個免職規定，免職規定本來就有了，現在這個修正案又加了「其他足以影響機關信譽及個人執行職務……」，簡單來說，這個是一個不確定的法律概念，他如果要干預，就用這個方式來處理。"],["徐委員富癸：對。所以在這裡本席也是要提醒我們立法院所有的委員，固然提案是我們的職責，但是要提怎麼樣的案子，提一個有負責任的案子，我想這個是全體國人，包含我們媒體先進，我們大家都會關注的一個焦點。尤其我們印象中這個提案裡面有寫到，如果本期的委員任期屆滿，不能予以提任的時候，視同出缺。哇！這就吃力了。因為公視董事長的選任辦法跟我們這一次修法提案中的選任辦法類似，造成公視有九百多天沒有董事長，這真的是茲事體大。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒錯。"],["徐委員富癸：主委，NCC可以九百多天沒有主委嗎？這就吃力了。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：NCC如果一個禮拜人數不夠，連至少四個委員都不到，這個機關就會陷入癱瘓。"],["徐委員富癸：是啊。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個跟媒體是沒有辦法這樣比的。"],["徐委員富癸：是啊。所以現在提出這個草案，執行面確實是有很大的問題，執行下去的話，真的NCC馬上就要關門，NCC如果關門，受影響很大的是我們百姓的權益。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。當然。"],["徐委員富癸：另外也要再提醒我們的主委，因為之前我們有發現到國家通訊傳播委員會有一個蕭姓的前委員，在2022年卸任離職之後，涉及違反公務人員旋轉門條款，還有擔任二類電信業者的顧問，遭到地檢署起訴。針對這個事情，我們要如何做一個自律的做法？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為這位蕭前委員已經離職了，牽涉到公務員服務法和本會組織法有關於旋轉門條款的規定，所以我們當時為什麼表示震驚跟遺憾？因為蕭前委員基本上在我們會內從事務官開始擔任起，所以他對我們的業務非常熟悉，一般來講，他的表現算很正常，沒想到反而是離職後才出現這個議題，所以以這個部分來講的話，當然就是該負的法律責任或是相關的責任，因為他已經是人民了，是平民了，他已經不是委員了，所以這個部分還是由檢察官來處理。"],["徐委員富癸：基層檢察官有組成一個叫做劍青檢改的單位，他們對於NCC的打詐表現很不滿意。在去年呼籲之後，詐騙案仍然很猖獗，他們甚至把NCC當作是打詐的戰犯。我們也肯定我們NCC同仁的努力，但是，我們應該要持續再加強，畢竟打詐現在變成國安問題。有林姓委員也提出NCC應該在電信法中直接納管虛擬行動網路的經營者（MVNO），而不是由行動網路業者來管理，NCC會採納這個意見嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有。我們現在新的辦法裡面本來對MMO和MVNO都要去做監理負責，這個部分來講的話，未來在電信管理法，本來我們現在就已經有啟動修法小組，也在討論這個議題，都有在處理。"],["徐委員富癸：在這邊本席還是要感謝主委的努力，我們屏東人未來再繼續打拚。謝謝。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：感謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","主席宣告，待會因為由我詢答，所以請謝龍介委員代理主席。在我詢答完畢之後，我們休息3分鐘。謝謝各位。"],["主席（謝委員龍介代）：接續請吳宗憲委員質詢。你也要來向我敬禮一下。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","林國成","莊瑞雄","柯建銘","沈發惠","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","黃健豪","李昆澤","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","游顥","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","林沛祥","陳雪生"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一) 委員傅崐萁等33 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員傅崐萁等41 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 委員洪孟楷等25 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、 ( 四 ) 委員翁曉玲等 18 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困難"},{"start":75.012,"end":90.246,"text":"國民黨委員提出的這個版本不僅是走回頭路而且又把違憲這個事情又重提一次所以我在這也要請教主委主委將對這次國民黨委員提出的版本你個人的看法"},{"start":91.684,"end":117.279,"text":"這就是走回頭路嘛因為NCCD獨立機關的設計是盡量它讓它中立去政治然後多元嘛那你的政黨比例就是把政黨的這個所謂的相關的影響力又加入變成在獨立機關裡面部這個跟它本質上就是有衝突所以當時大法官才會解釋說這個跟這個本質有違憲的問題因為本期也是媒體出身啊那我們都很"},{"start":118.279,"end":119.42,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":134.568,"end":158.797,"text":"那尤其這次國民黨委員提出的草案裡面有一個更離譜的就是所謂一個免職的規定包含主委、副主委跟委員只要有4種以上包含廢辭職務、因案羈押起訴甚至影響機關信譽還有個人執行行為的失職行為得經立法院連署經過不信任投票予以免職哇這知識體大捏"},{"start":160.217,"end":162.619,"text":"立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":177.771,"end":189.862,"text":"通訊是會的,因為簡單來說,就是我們的組織府裡面的規定,獨立機關要行使職權是所謂的不受政治干預嘛,那你看這個免職管理本人現在就有了,他再加一個說其他組織影響機關心意及個人執行組,簡單來說這就是一個不確定的法律概念,他要不要干預,他就用這個方式去說。"},{"start":196.869,"end":202.03,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第3會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織"},{"start":220.915,"end":242.083,"text":"草案裏面這個有寫到如果我們本期的委員任期屆滿不能予以提任的時候視同出缺哇這就吃爛人了因為我們曾經公視的董事長因為他的選任辦法跟我們這次修法草案的選任辦法類似造成公視有高霸規跟沒當選到這真的知識體大阿主委"},{"start":245.484,"end":247.505,"text":"立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":274.384,"end":288.95,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第1次聯席會議組織法第1次聯席會議組織法第1次聯席會議組織法第1次聯席會議組織法第1次聯席會議組織法第1次聯席會議組織法第1次聯席會議組織法第1次聯席會議組織法第1次聯席會議組織法第1次聯席會議組織法第1次聯席會議組織法第1次聯席會議組織法第1次聯席會議組織法第1次聯席會議組織法第1次聯席會議組織法第1次聯席會"},{"start":301.135,"end":304.459,"text":"公務員服務法及組織法有關於旋轉門條款的規定,為何想震驚與遺憾?因為消遣委員從事務官開始擔任,所以他對我們的業務非常熟悉。"},{"start":321.036,"end":347.85,"text":"一般來講表現是很正常沒想到是反而離職後來講出現這個議題啦所以這個部分來講的話當然就是該負的法律責任或是相關的責任因為他已經是人民了平民了他已經不是委員了所以這個還是由檢察官來處理啦最後一個我想我們基層檢察官有組成一個叫做建清檢改的一個單位他們對我們NCC的一個打詐表現很不滿意啦"},{"start":348.45,"end":358.179,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法"},{"start":366.766,"end":394.611,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案案。厲信委員也提出所謂的NCCU應該在電信法中直接納管所謂一個虛擬行動網路的一個經營者叫MVNO的部分而不是有行動網路業者來管理那我想NCCU會採納這個意見嗎?我們現在新的辦法裡面本來對MMO、MVNO都會要去做監理負責嘛這個部分來講的話我們未來來講在電信管理法本來我們現在已經有啟動那個修法小組也在討論這個議題都在處理"},{"start":396.271,"end":397.914,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"151992","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151992","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b53a6cbf342ceaf0d1e4149ad024bf7a855be169921a0a71755ca24a39e73c50c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"12:30:28 - 12:36:51","影片長度":"00:06:23","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員傅崐萁等41人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1"},"duration":383,"end_time":"2024-05-01T12:36:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T12:30:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1016,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（12時30分）謝謝主席。請主席邀請陳主委。"],["主席：麻煩陳主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["陳委員素月：主委午安。今天司法及法制委員會跟交通委員會聯席，就是針對NCC組織法的修正案，我們看到今天有幾位國民黨的委員針對NCC組織法提出修正案，主要大概就是三個重點，一個就是委員會委員人數跟組成要依政黨比例來推薦，另外一個就是主委跟副主委互推來產生，另外一個就是委員任期交錯制度要廢止和取消，大概是這幾個重點方向。我們來回顧一下，剛剛很多委員都有提到，事實上在19年前，在2005年那時候是阿扁執政，在立法院是國親兩黨實質過半，所以那時候他們就已經提出希望NCC的委員是由各政黨來舉薦，然後依立法院的席次比例來分配，由行政院院長來推薦三名。不過這樣子的一個提案在立法院通過之後，經由行政院提出釋憲，大法官釋字第613號也做出了解釋，認為這樣子的提案是違憲的，違憲的理由主要有兩個重點，我們看到解釋文裡面也說得非常清楚，就是基於權力分立的原則，依我國的憲法，行政院是最高的行政機關，所以應該保留行政院院長對獨立機關重要人事決定的權限，所以如果按照當時的提案或今天國民黨的提案，要將NCC委員的提名依政黨比例來推薦的話，這樣子是實質侵犯了人事權和行政權，就是實質的剝奪。之前大法官就做出了釋字第613號解釋，已經非常清楚了，我們很遺憾的是，今天國民黨再次提出這樣子的一個違反憲法的案子。","我們來看一下有關主委跟副主委互選產生的主張，我們來回顧一下，互選的制度在過去也曾經實施過，就主委您的瞭解，當時產生什麼樣的狀況？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：舉一個最有名的例子，我們的七位委員裡面有四人幫跟三口組，這當然是戲稱，但是就是說會在運作上產生內部高度對立，很多的政策或政務沒有辦法順利推動，我記得那時候是在國民黨執政的時期，他們那時候是修法，後來在委員提名的時候，就直接指定誰為主任委員，誰為副主任委員，是這樣子。"],["陳委員素月：是。那我們也看到過去的文件記載，在民國100年12月14日，經由立法院修正NCC組織法第四條，將主任委員及副主任委員互選的規定改為由行政院院長來提名任命，然後經由立法院來行使同意權。民國100年是國民黨執政的時候，是馬英九當總統的時候，這個也是國民黨執政的時候自己改的，那今天國民黨又要自己把它改回來，我就會覺得不曉得他們是在想什麼。所以我們再來看今天國民黨的提案，包括本席所詢問的，包括委員比例，就是說，依政黨比例，再由司法院大法官作出解釋，指出這是違憲的之後，就確定下來了嘛，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["陳委員素月：在民國95年的時候，就是經由這樣的解釋之後，確定了。確定了這樣的一個制度之後，那時候是阿扁執政沒錯，可是後來也政黨輪替了嘛，對不對？政黨輪替之後，2008年到2016年這8年，國民黨也執政了8年，也是一樣是依照這樣子的組織法在運作嘛，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒錯。"],["陳委員素月：也是由他們來提名任命嘛，對不對？那如果說他們對於這樣的一個制度認為是不對的、有問題的、難以運作的，為什麼他們在完全執政的時候不提出來做一個修正呢？為什麼在今天是我們民進黨執政、他們在國會過半數的時候，他們要來提出這樣子的一個修正案呢？這個在在都顯示出他們就是要穩贏不輸的，他們靠著國會過半，就要強行通過這樣子的法令、這樣子的修正案，要來主導NCC的人事同意權，他們真的是很明顯地把政治力介入了這個獨立機關嘛。這樣的一個作為，就是在在凸顯出他們國民黨這樣子「鴨霸」的文化特質嘛，我相信很多民眾都看在眼裡，所以本席在這邊也要呼籲所有的委員，民主國家就是依照制度法令在運作，因為物換星移，立法院的委員來來去去，沒有一個人可以保證永遠是贏家，一直待在立法院，可是我們的國家正常的運作就是要靠制度嘛，所以我們希望所有的委員要深思，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請徐富癸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","林國成","莊瑞雄","柯建銘","沈發惠","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","黃健豪","李昆澤","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","游顥","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","林沛祥","陳雪生"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一) 委員傅崐萁等33 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員傅崐萁等41 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 委員洪孟楷等25 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、 ( 四 ) 委員翁曉玲等 18 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12:30:19","影片長度":"00:06:33","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員傅崐萁等41人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1"},"duration":393,"end_time":"2024-05-01T12:30:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T12:23:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1009,"blocks":[["許委員智傑：（12時24分）主席，大家好。主委，你就坐著就好了，你回答也是已經都一樣了。其實我是很感慨啦，就從國民黨投票表決阻止電價調漲這件事來說，這很明顯就是違反行政跟立法的權力。剛剛欣純也提到NCC政黨比例，這個部分在19年前就已經釋憲過了，也很清楚了，我想不只是執政黨清楚，在野黨應該也非常地清楚，包括剛剛蔡其昌委員提到的，連建設特別條例，如果可以提一個花東的建設條例，是不是也可以提一個高雄的建設條例？是不是也可以提一個新北的建設條例？那每一個縣市都各自提一個建設條例，那就不用我們一般交通部在做交通建設的一個基本的程序跟道理。","我想權力分立的原則執政黨跟在野黨應該統統都知道，但是我覺得在野黨憑著過半，然後就無限制地自我膨脹，我是希望人民可以好好地去觀察，觀察現在國民黨所提的任何法案，到底人民可不可以接受。當時人民的選舉讓國民黨在國會可以將近過半，雖然沒有過半，但是國民黨人數大於民進黨，然後跟民眾黨加起來過半，就造成了現在好像是在立法院決議什麼事情，統統不用管憲政體制，統統不用管行政、立法跟司法各權分立的原則，所以其實從這個會期開議到現在，我很少有這麼深的感觸，就是說，以後臺灣要怎麼走下去？難道還要這樣子持續不斷、紛紛攘攘地走下去嗎？所以我是覺得國民黨可以看清楚，像電價的決議案，其實行政機關是可以不理的啦，因為在立法院通過的預算案、法律案、條約案，行政院是一定要有所作為，但是如果是重大政策，其實它是可以不理的。","但是針對今天我們要調的NCC人事組織案，這個是屬於法律案，這個如果過了之後，行政院是不能不理的，除非就是行政院再提覆議，獲總統認可，再來提覆議，那覆議之後呢？還要有三分之二同意，我想國民黨也知道三分之二同意是不可能，所以如果覆議不通過，這個案子就作罷，那前面這一陣子又是在作戲，純粹為了這樣作戲，演給百姓看，一項又一項，浪費大家的時間、資源，所以我也真的是很沉重地呼籲我們臺灣的百姓，真的是要很仔細地看國民黨跟民眾黨現在在玩什麼。如果覆議案不通過，國民黨作罷也就算了，如果還不作罷，後面其實可能就要換到不信任案，覆議案如果不通過，國民黨不作罷，要提不信任案，就倒閣嘛，倒閣後就再來一次嘛。倒閣之後，當然就解散立法院，我相信人民看到立法院這樣子亂玩，人民也會做最後的決定。","其實我一直覺得，不然就乾脆玩到底了，你們就來提不信任案，我們就來解散國會，重選一遍，大家都重來，我覺得人民可能看了這一陣子立法院的亂象，就會做一個不一樣的選擇。那如果國民黨不提不信任案，還是要這樣子玩，那就是只是在做遊戲而已嘛。所以我真的是很沉痛地呼籲臺灣的人民，如果國民黨有本事玩到底，就提不信任案，然後就解散立法院，重新再來讓你們選擇一次。如果國民黨不敢提不信任案，就只是在玩遊戲而已，就只是在做假球嘛。人民要看清楚國民黨跟民眾黨這樣子在玩，玩臺灣的法律，玩臺灣的國會，玩臺灣的行政，這豈是臺灣之福？所以我真的是很有感觸。","不過也給主委一個建議，事實上，坦白講，這一陣子我對NCC也不盡滿意，有一些該擔當的，其實還是要擔當。就是說，讓在野黨可以看到NCC有擔當的一面，有一些事情，即使有爭議性或沒有爭議性，就像NCC一開始就答應我做的整個改革制度，事實上還有很多沒有改，我覺得NCC該檢討的要檢討，在野黨該監督的要監督，但是不要陷入非理性的搞亂國會的監督，這個是人民所不能接受的，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","我們下一位請陳素月委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","林國成","莊瑞雄","柯建銘","沈發惠","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","黃健豪","李昆澤","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","游顥","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","林沛祥","陳雪生"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 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國民黨大於民進黨"},{"start":128.479,"end":147.33,"text":"司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第十條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法制及法"},{"start":155.734,"end":182.139,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第18條條文修正草案．一）立法院第12屆第18條條文修正草案．一．立法院第18條條文修正草案．一．立法院第18條條文修正草案．一．立法院第19條條文修正草案．一．立法院第18條條文修正草案．一．立法院第19條條文修正草案．一．立法院第20條條文修正草案．一．立法院第"},{"start":183.82,"end":207.868,"text":"預算案、法律案、條約案,這個行政院是一定要有所作為。但是呢,如果是像重大政策,其實他是可以不理的。但是呢,針對今天我們要調的NCC的人事組織案,這個是屬於法律案。這個如果過了之後,行政院是不能不理的。"},{"start":209.176,"end":222.946,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組�"},{"start":232.529,"end":258.177,"text":"所以你如果是呼籲不通過不通過以後這個案子就作罷那前面這一陣子又是在作戲純粹為了這樣作戲這樣會被誰看這樣一項又一項浪費大家的時間資源所以我也真的是很沉重的呼籲我們台灣的百姓真的是要很仔細的看國民黨跟民主黨現在在玩什麼"},{"start":259.679,"end":286.619,"text":"那今天如果副議案不通過國民黨作罷也就算了如果他還不作罷後面其實可能就要換到不信任案那對副議案如果不通過國民黨不作罷要提不是信任案就倒閣嘛倒閣那就再來一次嘛倒閣之後當然就解散立法院我相信人民要在玩看到立法院這樣子亂玩"},{"start":288.106,"end":296.309,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．一）委員"},{"start":313.203,"end":314.024,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 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一) 委員傅崐萁等33 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員傅崐萁等41 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 委員洪孟楷等25 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、 ( 四 ) 委員翁曉玲等 18 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案。"},{"start":45.211,"end":63.528,"text":"司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制"},{"start":69.093,"end":78.898,"text":"我覺得這個不能調過人過啦主席我們不是不尊重你喔召委當然有絕對的權利但是召委還是必須要尊重職權行使法還有這議事規則喔所以我在提醒剛剛李坤哲他提的這個會議詢問從頭到尾都被主席跳過我覺得這是不合規矩也不合規定的喔我是提醒主席希望以後我們能夠照著立法院的職權行使法還有議事規則來走喔"},{"start":98.729,"end":100.942,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":104.983,"end":128.013,"text":"自我剛剛說的這個議事人員的私職我覺得應該該怎麼處理就應該要處理主委你好主委我想今天從頭到尾其實都只有一個很明確的就是剛剛大家要講的制度建立我們憲法下的一個權力分立還有我們這個憲法制度下面獨立機關該怎麼行使他的職責"},{"start":129.453,"end":144.071,"text":"司法院大法官有講過行政議題的原則所以我們立法院的這個提案到底能不能逾越這個所謂的行政權我想是今天最主要的論戰對不對那主委你認為你夠專業嗎"},{"start":146.664,"end":148.846,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":163.477,"end":192.097,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。 bicyndy Hsien-他們各自有不同的專業,但是都非常夠專業。對呀,都是因為有各自不同的專業,也一定前提就是要夠專業才能夠被提名為NCC委員嘛。而且NCC委員到目前為止還要我們立法委員來行使同意權嘛。所以大家可以就NCC委員大的專業到底夠不夠格,適不適任,當然可以在立法院裡面在審議的時候都可以提出詢問,但是呢"},{"start":192.938,"end":193.56,"text":"但是在詢問的過程當中,絕對不是因為要推翻這個制度而提這些案子。"},{"start":201.434,"end":224.149,"text":"之前有委員說我們今天就是因為接下來要審NCC委員的資格所以呢我們現在來提這個組織法的修法這個一陣言辭的說這沒問題可是問題是提的這個組織法的修法法案是違憲的那怎麼會沒有問題呢我們立法委員自己可以提違憲的法案嗎我們不應該走回頭路"},{"start":228.291,"end":243.073,"text":"每個委員都知道,這個都是可以去Google。19年前在成立NCC的時候,當時候他們就有藍營,他們政黨比例制,雖然通過了行政院就提起視線,"},{"start":244.793,"end":263.896,"text":"提起釋憲的結果是什麼?就是司法院大法官就宣告嘛NCC委員依政黨比例制是違憲的嘛是逾越這個而且是干涉這個行政權嘛你看剝奪行政院之人事決定權違反責任政治跟權利分立的一個原則嘛"},{"start":264.637,"end":291.09,"text":"所以如果今天我們在這個委員會在討論這個NCC的組織法的修法法案的話討論是可以啦。歡喜就好啦。現在的立法院好像是只要歡喜就好啦。不用管憲法、不用管法制、不用管其他的這個民主制度的要求啦。他只要歡喜就好,再來討論。討論了之後我們還要什麼?如果按照現在國民黨多數通過了之後"},{"start":292.608,"end":319.274,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件中的行政院提示線、或者又面臨一個空白的一個過渡期,那空轉的是什麼?NCC空轉嘛,是不是?主委你認為呢?這個如果又走回頭路就回到19年前那種狀況嘛,那NCC如果整個運作出現這個障礙或癱瘓的話,我想這個是整個國家都會受到很大的影響。是啊,我想其他的委員也都有提到嘛,這個影響影響到什麼?"},{"start":320.914,"end":325.076,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,以及其他委員提到,也許新型號的手機會沒有辦法上市,因為新型號手機要"},{"start":347.245,"end":348.706,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":366.032,"end":378.161,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織"},{"start":393.154,"end":394.237,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"151989","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151989","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bc923b8a4d669c1041e4149ad024bf7a855be169921a0a717f07c02915393e3b75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"13:46:47 - 13:54:19","影片長度":"00:07:32","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員傅崐萁等41人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1"},"duration":452,"end_time":"2024-05-01T13:54:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T13:46:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1414,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（13時46分）謝謝召委。我們一樣請陳主委，謝謝。"],["主席：麻煩主委，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：主委好。想請教一下主委，因為今天討論關於NCC的部分，主委昨天一整天的行程大概是什麼？可以跟本席分享一下嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：昨天？"],["黃委員健豪：是。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：昨天我早上……呃，我昨天早上是去……"],["柯委員建銘：行動自由，你跟他講甚麼有的沒有的。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對、對，還有下午去上課了，對啦！"],["柯委員建銘：……"],["黃委員健豪：主委你明確一點，我沒有聽到，剛剛我被柯建銘干擾了。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：昨天早上……"],["柯委員建銘：……你這樣根本沒有常識！"],["黃委員健豪：我在質詢，你閉嘴啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不好意思、不好意思，昨天早上我剛好休假，因為我去醫院回診。"],["黃委員健豪：昨天你休假嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，下午去回診。"],["黃委員健豪：請問您週一在忙什麼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：週一？"],["黃委員健豪：週一，這週一。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：呃，昨天是禮拜二……"],["柯委員建銘：……"],["黃委員健豪：你給我出去！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不好意思，我看一下我的行事曆。"],["黃委員健豪：沒關係。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不好意思。"],["莊委員瑞雄：……"],["黃委員健豪：不是，他不能干擾我啊，不管他……"],["莊委員瑞雄：質詢就好、質詢就好。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不好意思，昨天早上……喔，昨天早上我是去參加電信協會有關於打詐相關影視的拍攝，下午去開那個有線基金的會，不好意思。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝。主委，我為什麼會問你這個問題？因為在這個相關的說明裡面，如果今天NCC委員沒有辦法續任的話NCC會停擺，這是你們的說法，所以我想要確認一下如果今天委員不在NCC裡面，NCC是不是照常在運作？換句話說，如果今天NCC的所有委員個別都有個別的事務，但我想例行性的行政事務理論上是不是也會繼續進行？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：例行行政事務就是主委跟副主委的權限，所以如果主委跟副主委不在的話，這個時候為什麼要有代理主委就是這樣子。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝主委，感謝你對權限上的說明。接下來，你在今天的書面報告裡面提到：基於行政一體，須為包括本會在內之所有行政院所屬機關的表現負責，所以它的人選行政院應該要有人事決定權。各位常提到所謂的釋字第613號，今天主要的論點可能在釋字第613號大家有各自的想法，我要提到既然是釋字第613號，那麼釋字第613號的意見書裡面也提到通傳會屬於獨立機關性質，依法獨立行使職權，委員也有相關的法律規定，無需與行政院院長同進退，是將具有獨立機關性質的通傳會納入行政一體的原則已完全失去其意義。就是如果今天一直強調行政一體的話，其實它本質上跟所謂的獨立機關、精神上在大法官意見書裡面是有點背道而馳的。前大法官湯德宗也曾經說明過，通傳會如果是獨立機關，表示是行政機關獨立於行政院，所以可以主張為了要使通傳會獨立於行政院，行政院對於通傳會的人事控制就不應該是百分之百，如果是百分之百，要怎麼獨立呢？所以如果為了貫徹行政一體，它等於是毀掉了行政獨立機關的宗旨，湯德宗在他的結論裡面提到行政獨立這個概念與行政一體本身具有不可相容性。我提供以上的觀點來分享為什麼今天我們會主張NCC的人事權不一定完全屬於行政院。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，我可以補充說明嗎？"],["黃委員健豪：好，給你說明。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那個是湯德宗大法官的不同意見書，也就是在大法官裡面本來對某些憲法議題也會做出不同意見書。"],["黃委員健豪：是啊，這我知道。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這只是他個人的看法，不過以整個釋憲所謂的最終有效還是以大法官的解釋為準。"],["黃委員健豪：另外我也要繼續補充，其實從另外的角度來講，余雪明大法官同樣也在釋字第613號解釋中提到，只要沒有達到實質剝奪行政院人事決定權之程度，依政黨比例推薦委員候選人或依政黨比例推薦學者專家組成審查會或其他的方式，其實本質上並沒有真正剝奪所謂行政一體的方向。所以這是我要提出來的，也是為什麼我今天提出這個相關的法案修正。好，沒關係，這是我的意見，待會兒也會再討論。","接下來我要問主委，我們之前提到關於鏡電視，大家都覺得我們是針對鏡電視，但其實沒有，就像我剛剛在臨時提案說明的，今天我們要求、追求的是一個公平原則，我不會針對鏡電視內容的申設、它的企業經營部分，這不是我要問的，我要問的是比如華視是110年2月8日提出申請要到52臺，它的通過時間是110年3月31日，審查期間不到60天；以鏡電視來講，它是111年2月執照通過之後開始申請上架，112年的7月才上架，中間經過了16個月，今天我們要調閱審查過程就是想要了解為什麼有的電視臺不到30天就能夠上架到某個頻道系統，而為什麼鏡電視要經歷過16個月才上架？在申請的相關過程裡面，當初你們對鏡電視的申請附加了42項條款，針對更早以前的UDN新聞臺你可能就沒有什麼附加條款，針對其他電視臺的執照審查也沒有什麼太多附加條款。我們今天要問的其實並不是要針對鏡電視，我要針對的是NCC，在審查的過程裡面你的行政作為為什麼不同？比如對他們這家要16個月、而對他們那家只要30天？其他電視臺很順利的通過，但對某個電視臺就要附加這麼多項條款？原因在哪裡？這就是我們為什麼要拜託NCC提出審查的原因。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：基本上來講，它要不要上架是商業談判的機制問題，而且這個還有所謂區塊化的相關議題，比如說華視可能因為它是公廣集團的，所以一般系統業者比較容易讓它上，而有一些可能是商業競爭的議題，所以時間上會拖得比較長。另外剛才講到鏡電視為什麼加這麼多附款，這很多是因為它當時在申請的時候就把這個東西當做它申請的內容，因此就把它的內容變成附款。"],["黃委員健豪：主委，沒關係，這部分我沒有意見，我的意思是今天為什麼要成立和鏡電視有關的調閱小組？我們要了解的就是你剛才說明的這件事情，我們希望你把文字化的東西說明清楚，在行政機關的判斷上為什麼對不同電視臺、不同的媒體可能會有不同的角度？如果沒有，那你要講清楚：如果有，也要講清楚，這就是我們監督NCC的主要原因。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好。"],["黃委員健豪：所以這個部分就是為什麼今天要提出來，也希望NCC能夠遵辦。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：OK，我們來處理。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位請林沛祥委員，林沛祥委員、林沛祥委員。","下一位請翁曉玲委員，翁曉玲委員、翁曉玲委員。他改提書面。","好，所有登記發言的委員都已經發言完畢，詢答結束，委質詢時要求提供相關資料或以書面答復者，請相關機關儘速送交個別委員跟本聯席會。委員邱若華、翁曉玲所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報，並請相關機關以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","林國成","莊瑞雄","柯建銘","沈發惠","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","黃健豪","李昆澤","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","游顥","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","林沛祥","陳雪生"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一) 委員傅崐萁等33 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員傅崐萁等41 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 委員洪孟楷等25 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、 ( 四 ) 委員翁曉玲等 18 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。"},{"start":207.771,"end":234.192,"text":"不應該是百分之百,如果是百分之百,要怎麼獨立呢?所以如果貫徹的行政議題卻毀掉了...如果為了貫徹行政議題,它等於是毀掉了行政獨立機關的宗旨。在湯德仲這個結論裡面他提到,行政獨立這個概念與行政議題本身具有不可相容性。提供以上的觀點來分享為什麼今天我們會主張說"},{"start":235.458,"end":238.42,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":260.731,"end":287.93,"text":"另外我要繼續補充啦其實從另外一個角度來講這個于雪明大法官在同樣也在4-613號提到說只要他沒有實質的剝奪行政的人事決定權的角度的程度依照政黨比例推薦委候選人或依政黨比例推薦學者專家組成的審查會或其他的方式那其實本質上他並沒有真正的剝奪所謂行政議題的這個方向啦所以這是我要提出來的為什麼今天提出這個相關的法案的修正"},{"start":288.55,"end":290.531,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":320.104,"end":346.122,"text":"華視111年2月8號提出申請要到52台那他的通過時間是110年3月30要通過審查期間不到60天那比如說以今天事來講他是111年2月通過之後開始申請要上架112年的7月才上架中間經過了16個月今天我們要調閱所謂的審查這個過程就是想了解說為什麼有的電視台"},{"start":347.503,"end":364.436,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法"},{"start":373.163,"end":377.744,"text":"我就提到了其實我們並不是要針對靜電視啊我要針對是NCCC啊你在審查的過程裡面你的行政作為裡面為什麼對他們比如說有16個月對他們只要30天啊對其他電視台很順利的通過對某個電視台要付這麼多項條款原因在哪裡這就是我們為什麼要拜託NCCC提出審查的原因在這裡嘛"},{"start":392.649,"end":420.249,"text":"基本上來講的話就是說他要不要上架是商業談判的機制的問題而且比如說這個還有所謂區塊化的這個相關的議題所以說比如說華氏可能因為他是公安機組所以一般系統業者比較容易他上那可能是有一些跟商業競爭的議題所以時間上會拖比較長那另外剛才講說這個新列式這個部分來講的話為什麼叫這麼付款這是很多是因為他當時在申請的時候他去把這個東西當作他申請的內容把他內容變成付款"},{"start":420.489,"end":438.361,"text":"對,沒關係,這部分我們有意見,我是意思說今天為什麼要調閱淨電視,為什麼所謂申請淨電視調閱小組,我們要了解的就是你剛剛說明的這件事情,我們希望你把文字化的東西說明清楚你在行政機關的判斷上面為什麼對不同電視台、不同的媒體可能會有不同的角度嗎?"},{"start":439.241,"end":443.088,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織"}]}},{"id":"151988","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151988","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bb62a658416d4d1781e4149ad024bf7a855be169921a0a71751333fc182bd9e865ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"13:39:11 - 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16會不會在臺灣會通過？請說明一下。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們當然不希望發生這種事情，NCC整個職權跟我們人民食衣住行的關係都非常密切，剛剛委員已經提到非常多，其實還有一塊就是網路議題，網路爭議的問題包括兒少的議題、藥物的議題，我們要配合其他機關來處理。"],["李委員昆澤：對啊，包括爭議的訊息、或是違反藥事法、或是違反食品安全衛生管理法、或者是違反兒少法等等案件。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對、對、對，我想最近創意私房那個案子可以看得出來人民非常的憤怒，而且要求相關的機關儘速去處理，如果是NCC來講的話，類似這種案件可能就癱瘓掉了。另外一個是在緊急救難的時候，這部分很多東西也是NCC必須跟相關電信業者或者相關通訊傳播業者大家共同來努力的。"],["李委員昆澤：所以NCC面對的當然有很多高度敏感相關的政治爭議，但是NCC還是要處理民眾的民生跟電信發展的一些重要相關業務。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒錯。"],["李委員昆澤：如果不得延任而且人數不足的時候不得議決，這個大家要更進一步探討是否適當。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["李委員昆澤：其實NCC的成立是在第6屆的時候，也謝謝高雄的栽培，我當時就是交通委員會的委員，2005年第6屆第2會期10月25日國家通訊傳播委員會組織法三讀通過，它要到2006年的2月20日正式成立，但是在1月20日行政院長謝長廷就提出釋憲，因為依照政黨比例的推薦是否違憲所以聲請釋憲，我們提出釋憲之後，在2006年7月21日司法院釋字第613號解釋出來，它最主要的精神請主委簡單說明一下。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：基本上第一個行政一體，所以行政院必須包含NCC，這個都是它要負責；第二個，因為基於行政一體所謂的責任政治，所以人事提名權是由行政院長所享有。立法院雖然對於行政院、對人事同意權透過同意或是資格限制有它的參與，但是它不能取代行政院長。"],["李委員昆澤：釋字第613號解釋其實表明一個很清楚的原則，就是立法權對行政權的人事決定、尤其是獨立機關，它有具體制衡的一個基本原則，它具體表現在對於任用資格限制的討論，其實最主要的是要維持它的獨立性跟專業性。如果是以政黨推薦其實是干預了它的自主性跟專業性，而且會降低人民的信賴，這個部分是我們必須要去思考的。另外我們也討論到NCC的委員，也有其他委員提案認為要由立法院來提名，這是一個很詭異的設計，因為行政部門提出相關的人選是行政部門要負責；然後依照這個版本是立法院提名3名NCC委員再交由行政院來任命，如果出問題是立法院負責還是行政院負責呢？這樣的人事設計是有問題的。請主委說明一下。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個就是責任政治的問題，誰提名誰負責，包括我們人事的提名權來講，行政院提名當然行政院要負這個責任，所以像這種所謂的人事跟行政分享權力的確會導致所謂的權力分立還有責任政治歸屬不明的結果。"],["李委員昆澤：這樣的任期交錯還是有它的必要。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，有必要。"],["李委員昆澤：因為相關的政策有它的延續性，如果一次全部都是新的委員，那麼相關政策的推動其實是有問題的。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["李委員昆澤：所以各位委員必須要針對民生、電信相關議題來討論委員是否延任，如果沒有同意又不得延任，然後委員人數不足又不得議決，那麼將會面臨電信整個癱瘓，這個是大家必須要注意的。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李委員。","下一位請謝衣鳯委員，謝衣鳯委員、謝衣鳯委員。","邱若華委員、邱若華委員、邱若華委員。","廖先翔委員、廖先翔委員、廖先翔委員。","陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員。","接下來請黃健豪委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","林國成","莊瑞雄","柯建銘","沈發惠","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","黃健豪","李昆澤","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","游顥","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","林沛祥","陳雪生"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 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案。"},{"start":73.18,"end":85.585,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第12屆第14條條文修正草案．一）立法院第12屆第14條條文修正草案．一）立法院第12屆第14條條文修正草案．一）立法院第12屆第16條條文修正草案．一）立法院第16條條文修正草案．一）立法院第17條條文修正草案．一）立法院第18條條文修正草案．一）立法院第19條條文修正草案．"},{"start":100.953,"end":121.572,"text":"委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件不得延任,而且是委員人數不決,不得一決,那iPhone16會不會在臺灣會通過,請說明一下。我們當然不希望發生這種事情,NCC它的整個職權是跟我們人民的十一住行關係都非常密切,其實剛剛委員已經提到非常多,其實還有一塊就是那個網路那塊議題,"},{"start":123.193,"end":132.021,"text":"包括爭議的稀奇或違反藥事法或是違反食品安全衛生管理法或是違反兒少法等等的案件。」"},{"start":144.232,"end":146.915,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":164.713,"end":173.576,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二�"},{"start":192.623,"end":218.248,"text":"是在第六屆的時候那也謝謝高雄的栽培我在當時就是交通委員會的委員2005年第六屆第二會期10月25號國家通訊傳播委員會他的組織法三讀通過他是要到2006年的2月20號來正式成立但是在1月20號"},{"start":220.314,"end":229.593,"text":"寫商庭行政院提出釋憲因為相關依照政黨比例的推薦是否違憲所以申請釋憲所以我們在"},{"start":233.615,"end":261.741,"text":"提出釋憲之後我看是在2006年的7月21號司法院的司制第613號的司制出來那他最主要精神來主委簡單說明一下基本上第一個行政議題所以說行政院必須包括在包含在NCC這個都是他要負責那第二個因為至於這個行政議題最所謂責任政治所以這個人事提名權是有所謂的行政院長所享有"},{"start":262.741,"end":284.775,"text":"立法院雖然對行政院對人事統一權用通過統一權或是資格的限制有他的參與但是他不能取代行政院長。這個釋字613號的這個釋字啊他其實表明一個很清楚的原則就是啊立法權對行政權的人事決定權尤其是獨立機關他有"},{"start":287.748,"end":296.414,"text":"具體的這樣的一個制衡的一個基本的原則他具體表現在對任用資格限制"},{"start":297.657,"end":313.708,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第四條條文修正草案．一．立法院第四條條文修正草案．一．立法院第四條條文修正草案．一．立法院第四條條文修正草案．一．立法院第四條條文修正草案．一．立法院第四條條文修正草案．一．立法院第四條條條文修正草案．一．立法院第四條條條文修正草案．一．立法院第四條條條文修正草案．"},{"start":324.448,"end":345.852,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第3會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4"},{"start":353.635,"end":374.505,"text":"如果出問題是立法院負責還是行政院負責呢?這樣一個人事設計是有問題的,主委說明一下。這個就是責任政治的問題,就是說誰提名誰負責嘛。就是包括我們人事的提名權來講,行政院提名當然行政院要負這個責任嘛。那所以說像這種所謂的人事跟行政這種分享這個權利的話,的確會導致這個所謂的權利分立還有所謂責任政治歸屬不明的這種結果。"},{"start":381.408,"end":383.089,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案案"},{"start":402.874,"end":419.312,"text":"對於委員是否嚴認,如果沒有同意,又不得嚴認,然後委員人數的不足,又不得議決,那麼相關的很多的面臨到電信整個會癱瘓,這個是大家必須要注意的。"}]}},{"id":"151987","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151987","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bddc540130b193f401e4149ad024bf7a855be169921a0a717bdb27c7f107e01055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"13:32:12 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13:38:51","影片長度":"00:06:39","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員傅崐萁等41人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1"},"duration":399,"end_time":"2024-05-01T13:38:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T13:32:12+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1356,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（13時32分）謝謝召委，有請主委。"],["主席：麻煩主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好！"],["游委員顥：主委，還是要再次表達一下，目前來講，今天的整個審查各界都在看，包括剛才主秘離席的部分，今天是天上聖母的誕辰，我相信在場不管國民黨、民進黨或民眾黨的委員，大家都有很多地方行程要跑，所以說要先請假之後才離席，我相信召委他都會同意，就像剛才許多委員對於召委今天排這個議程表達意見，那我還是要再為召委講話，這不是因為NCC的名單出來了，召委才排這個議程。本身來講，在過去的整個過程，民眾對於NCC目前的功能還有它的意識形態就有很大的一個質疑，所以說今天的排案一切都合法也一切都照程序。同樣的，我想要直接就教一下主委，在中天關台這個事件中，你認為在過去、前一年在大選期間，有沒有因為這個成為重大議題或焦點議題？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：中天不予換照本來就是一個重大的議題，所以在競選過程當中當然也會成為一個議題。"],["游委員顥：對，沒錯。今天許多委員針對媒體自由、新聞自由，新國會、新民意，大家提出了許多的看法，也是希望NCC的角色跟功能能夠實實在在的代表新聞自由，但是目前看起來並不是這樣。有一句話是「自由！自由！多少罪惡假汝之名而行」，這是1793年羅蘭夫人在法國巴黎協和廣場斷頭台留下的名句，當時是因為革命的浪潮在法王路易十六被送上斷頭台之後，羅伯斯比的雅各賓派像脫韁野馬走上瘋狂的獨裁路線，到最後造成了這種悲劇，這就像是一個啟蒙，他告訴我們自由的概念必須要有理性的束縛，不能無限上綱而走火入魔。主委對於這句話有什麼看法？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：法國大革命後來變成暴民政治，我想臺灣現在的民主政治是很上軌道的。"],["游委員顥：所以從過去的中天到新聞的不自由再到媒體壟斷，是不是也對應著上次的選舉，到最後整個過程對民進黨也有傷？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們臺灣的民主自由或者是臺灣的新聞自由，目前在國際排名上還是亞洲第一，我想這個應該是沒有什麼太大的變化，那當然我們本來就是一個多元的民主社會，各種不同的意見都有。"],["游委員顥：主委，其實民眾都看得很清楚，因為那時候的中天關台，我相信現在看來就是處於一個媒體壟斷，所以睜著眼睛不能說瞎話，因為NCC說是獨立機關，但現在簡直是變成獨裁機關！我相信中天關台那時候，許多NCC的基層公務人員應該也有針對這個部分提出許多意見，甚至建議這樣子不可行，但是那時候主委、副主委包括許多委員大家一致通過，還覺得這樣子沒有問題，事實上許多NCC基層職員跟民眾的看法是一樣的，新聞是應該自由的，所以說如果在像今天這樣由媒體大亨直接主導NCC的情況之下，NCC的獨立性還在嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：第一個，這個所謂媒體大亨我也是看新聞才知道的，當然我們本來就應該排除任何外界干預，包括從人事的提名這個部分去處理，不過這是院長的權力，我們予以尊重。"],["游委員顥：包括羅慧雯委員曾說「新聞自由能吃嗎」，我相信這些提出的人選其實都有很大的問題，所以今天有關NCC的提案我們必須支持，也希望讓它通過，因為NCC中華民國國家通訊傳播委員會不是行政院的新聞傳播處，也不是傳播二處，所以說今天的提案攸關我們的NCC還有新聞到底是不是能夠自由，我相信這個看法你可以接受吧。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：新聞自由當然是大家要共同維護的，我們也認為在現行制度上，我們就依法去處理，並沒有什麼太大的……"],["游委員顥：那調閱鏡電視這個部分呢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：調閱鏡電視這個部分我剛才已經回答很多次，我們並沒有……"],["游委員顥：我知道，你有沒有辦法在520之前讓這個調閱的過程能夠順暢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們會陸續把一些資料，如果可以的話會提供給委員，只是說這些資料到底哪些……","跟委員報告一下，就是調閱資料要程序，提供資料也要程序，因為這會涉及第三人或其他人家公司營業秘密的問題，這會有責任的問題，所以要先釐清，我們才敢把這個資料給各位委員來指教。"],["游委員顥：主委，其實我是覺得這個部分很明顯的外界看來就是閃躲。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有閃躲的問題。"],["游委員顥：在這個部分，其實許多委員也並不是要針對鏡電視，而是要針對審查發照的過程有所瞭解，我覺得NCC其實應該要有一個主動積極來去配合立法院的動作。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為有些資料，比如說有一些是在訴訟偵查當中，像這種資料到底能不能給，要給到什麼樣程度，所以我們當時為什麼要說特定議案，就是我剛才跟委員再三重複報告的，這不是我們NCC自己訂的標準，是大法官訂的標準，我如果不按照大法官訂的標準做，將來出問題的話……"],["游委員顥：剛才一再提的，包括柯總召提到的調閱跟釋憲的部分，他剛才講的那些說法跟例子對你有加分嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是有沒有加分的問題，而是法律制度的問題，其實我們憲法也沒有規定調閱制度，這個本來就是後來大法官解釋以後才產生出來的，所以怎麼調，這個當然是要依立法院自己的規定還有大法官解釋所謂的要件去處理，我們也很擔心我們的法律責任啊！"],["游委員顥：我還是要跟主委講，我覺得還是主動配合鏡電視這個調閱，不要再閃躲了。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一位請鄭天財委員，鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員。","鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員。","李昆澤委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","林國成","莊瑞雄","柯建銘","沈發惠","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","黃健豪","李昆澤","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","游顥","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","林沛祥","陳雪生"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一) 委員傅崐萁等33 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員傅崐萁等41 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 委員洪孟楷等25 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、 ( 四 ) 委員翁曉玲等 18 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.332843750000002,"end":14.543468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.235343750000002,"end":15.927218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.082843750000002,"end":23.301593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.83721875,"end":25.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.07284375,"end":29.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.92471875,"end":32.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.768468750000004,"end":33.291593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.73034375,"end":36.09284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.27846875,"end":54.13221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.43596875,"end":58.080968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.367843750000006,"end":97.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.10846875,"end":106.37721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.72409375000001,"end":101.29784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.37721875000001,"end":106.41096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.49534375,"end":150.67409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.91034375,"end":161.81159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.94659375,"end":168.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.76034375,"end":165.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.03846875000002,"end":178.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.65284375000002,"end":192.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.11534375000002,"end":210.31034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.85034375,"end":236.75346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.77034375000002,"end":242.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.31784375,"end":255.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.13034375,"end":286.50096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.68659375000004,"end":294.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.41971875,"end":296.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.39409375,"end":298.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.26721875000004,"end":302.98784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.78534375000004,"end":321.83721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.59909375,"end":307.00409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.95971875000004,"end":327.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.80284375,"end":327.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.42284375,"end":342.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":342.49221875,"end":360.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.51909375,"end":369.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":370.13346875,"end":389.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.38596875,"end":374.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.12221875,"end":390.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.51846875,"end":394.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":394.83846875,"end":396.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.56784375,"end":399.22596875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":12.455,"end":29.345,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法"},{"start":34.135,"end":53.37,"text":"主委還是要再次表達一下這個NCC目前來講今天的整個審查外界各界都在看那包括剛才組密離席的部分我相信在場不管國民黨或民進黨或民眾黨的委員今天是天上聖母的誕辰大家都很多地方形成要跑那所以說今天來講"},{"start":54.531,"end":56.933,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":75.971,"end":97.241,"text":"包括他的意識形態就很大的一個質疑那所以說今天的排案還是一切的合法一切到程序那同樣的我想要直接就教一下主委那在中天關台的這個事件中你認為在過去這個前一年在大選期間有沒有因為這個成為重大的議題或焦點議題"},{"start":98.194,"end":125.286,"text":"中天不比幻照本來就是一個重大的議題所以當然在競選過程當中當然也會成為一個議題所以今天的許多的委員針對媒體自由、新聞自由、新國會、新民意所以大家提出了許多的看法也就是希望NCC它的角色跟功能能夠實實在在的能夠代表著新聞自由但是目前看起來並不是這樣有一句話"},{"start":126.686,"end":150.166,"text":"自有自有多少罪惡假入之民惡行．是1793年在法國巴黎協和廣場斷頭台羅蘭夫倫的一個名句當時是因為革命的浪潮法王路易十六被送上斷頭台之後羅伯斯比雅各兵派像脫江野馬還瘋狂的獨裁的路線到最後而造成的這種悲劇"},{"start":151.027,"end":178.012,"text":"所以說像現在的一個啟蒙他告訴我們自由的概念他必須要理性的一個束縛不能無限上綱而走火入魔那主委你對於這句話你能可以當然那個法國大革命後來變成報名政治嘛那我想台灣現在民主政治是很上軌道所以說過去的中天再到新聞的不自由再到媒體壟斷是不是也對著上次的選舉到最後整個過程對民進黨也有傷"},{"start":179.814,"end":194.311,"text":"臺灣的民主自由或是臺灣的新聞自由目前來講在國際排名上在亞洲還是第一的我想這個應該是沒有什麼太大的變化當然我們本來就是一個多元的民主社會用這種數據其實民眾都看得很清楚"},{"start":194.972,"end":216.992,"text":"因為那時候的中天觀台我相信現在來講就是處於一個媒體壟斷所以睜著眼睛不能說瞎話因為現在NCC的話它是獨立機關它現在簡直是變成獨裁機關我相信那時候中天觀台的時候許多基層NCC的基層的人員、公務人員應該也有針對這個部分其實提出了許多的意見甚至建議這樣子是不可行"},{"start":217.532,"end":242.132,"text":"但是我相信那時候主委副主委包括許多委員大家一致通過還甚至覺得這樣子沒有問題事實上許多的基層NCC的基層的職員就跟民眾他的看法是一樣的新聞是應該自由的所以說如果今天來講像媒體大亨他直接主導NCC那這樣子的情況來講你覺得像這種情況來講NCC的獨立性有在嗎?"},{"start":243.339,"end":247.484,"text":"立法院第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第四條條文修正草案．"},{"start":259.938,"end":286.167,"text":"我相信在這些的提案的人選其實都有很大的問題所以NCC今天的提案我們必須也支持也需要讓他通過那因為NCC中華民國國家通訊傳播委員會他不是行政院的新聞傳播處也不是傳播二處所以說今天來講的提案他攸關的是我們NCC還新聞到底是不是能夠自由那我相信這個看法你可以接受"},{"start":286.727,"end":300.439,"text":"當然新聞事由是大家要共同維護的啦那我們也認為說在目前的現行制度上我們就依法去處理並沒有所謂的議題啦那所以說吊躍禁電室的這個部分吊躍禁電室我剛才已經回答很多次就是說你有沒有辦法在520之前能夠讓這個吊躍的過程能夠順暢"},{"start":302.841,"end":303.422,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":325.762,"end":325.782,"text":"檢討的問題 。"},{"start":342.723,"end":354.53,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案案﹚立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第12會期司法及法制、交通"},{"start":370.168,"end":371.268,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案"}]}},{"id":"151986","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151986","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b13d208b7542f6dff1e4149ad024bf7a855be169921a0a717092a24a2ed30116a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"13:24:46 - 13:31:29","影片長度":"00:06:43","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員傅崐萁等41人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1"},"duration":403,"end_time":"2024-05-01T13:31:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T13:24:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1305,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（13時25分）謝謝主席！本席想邀請主委。"],["主席：麻煩主委上台。謝謝！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主委，大家認為NCC這個單位是國家非常重要的職務，你身為主委，我想所有的事情都要依法來做，但是光光到國會裡頭，連在國會列席的人員就偷偷溜掉！你派了他去做什麼事？有什麼貓膩不可以講？為什麼就偷偷溜掉、離開了會場，主席也不知道？你覺得這種事情是可以容許的嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，他應該要先跟主席報告，取得主席的許可才可以離場，這才對。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以他溜掉你知道嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我其實剛才才知道他不在場。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你也不知道？所以你們底下都各自為政囉？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是，委員，我早上都在……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：可以這樣子嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有！沒有！這個我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你要不要為這一種非常不合邏輯的、對人民這麼不尊重的行為道歉？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，所以我在此鄭重道歉！對委員會來講，我們未將這件事情處理好，我們道歉！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你不止是對委員會道歉，是對臺灣人民道歉！因為我們是新聞自由，這是民主最重要的一個真諦，怎麼會弄到這種程度呢？所以接下來本席要請教你們悍拒調閱小組索資，NCC有這麼大的官威嗎？什麼理由？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有！沒有！我們沒有所謂的拒絕提供，我們是說這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你沒有拒絕提供，那我們來討論一下要求提供資料這件事，3月11日成立調閱小組是人民期待的，到了4月25號，你回了一個函，說什麼調閱小組可要求機關提供特定議案資料，但本案屬於公司治理，與機關監理事項鏡電視的申設是否涉及特定議案尚有疑義，請交通委員會釐清並釋明。什麼理由？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這是請交委會跟我們講你要調閱……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼理由？你以前也是教授，當教授出題目給學生要學生回答問題，學生告訴你，你的題目要ABC我才回答，你覺得這樣子行嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是，不是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：今天是調閱小組耶！為什麼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，那一天在調閱小組做提案的時候我已經當場說明了，當時召集的林國成委員要我們回去用書面再補充說明，我們是說這個東西你要調閱當然可以，是特定議案我才知道我要給你什麼資料嘛！如果不是特定議案……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，沒關係！我們事情越辯越清。主委，有人質疑你認為不該調查，有沒有這種立場？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有啊！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你有沒有這種立場？說明清楚！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們本來應該就應該接受調查，有疑問就要受調查。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們應該要提供的資料就要提供，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是啊！沒錯。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不能悍拒，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，我們從來沒有說悍拒，我一直在強調我們沒有拒絕的問題。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你從來沒有拒絕的問題？你沒有拒絕的問題。今天我們審議法案是為什麼，就是因為不足，所以立法院的功能是代表人民，將不足的部分以法律訂定之，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟委員報告，就像今天審查的這個是法律案，如果是法律案，在審查過程裡面，要我們提供有些資料、要調閱，那當然可以呀！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以本席再請教你，大家說NCC亂搞、全民受害，他不只受害還要善後，NCC應該是備受全國人民尊敬的一個單位，但是似乎所有系統裡頭，NCC是被質疑最多、最混淆的，為什麼？所以委員的人事機制應該要檢討，你認為呢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：如果大院說委員的專業資格部分還要去精進，那當然是大院的職權。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你支持委員人事的機制應該要檢討，對不對？我們實質來討論。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：目前運作起來沒有什麼太大的問題，專業部分……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你說沒有什麼太大的問題，結果現在是全國系統裡頭最混亂的！現在本席實質在跟你討論，NCC委員應該今天給你很大的一個說明，但是你們竟然將自己的公信力跟獨立性都玩掉了！在這樣的情況之下，人民要吞下什麼？吞下新聞自由，吞下通訊傳播環境失序的結果，而且還要替NCC出訴訟費，那都是人民的納稅錢，接下來還要自己調查自己的問題你才接受，你才要提供資料。因此在這樣的情況之下，顯然大家質疑NCC受外力的影響很大，有沒有？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然沒有！我們就是由7個委員去處理。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們都希望在這裡公開說明清楚，您的回答是沒有，但是我告訴您，我支持國民黨的提案版本，也就是檢討委員的人事機制，同不同意？包括行政院跟立法院皆有提名單。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，我剛才講過這個基本上可能有牴觸憲法的問題，政黨比例也好或者是這個……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你一直閃躲、一直閃躲嘛！廢除交錯任期制，你同不同意？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不同意，因為交錯任期……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不同意？你也是閃躲！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有！沒有！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：成立提名審查委員會，同不同意？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：審查委員會部分，如果是照釋字第613號解釋，那個一樣會行不通的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以你都認為不通，你認為通的到現在都給社會最混亂而且吞下新聞自由，還要自己來出題目你才回答。所以主委，請你冷靜三思，好好的檢討，因為詢答就是希望能夠說明、再說明、再說明，能夠達成共識，我們的目的就是要還給人民新聞自由，還給民主的真諦。對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊委員。","因為剛剛離開的官員已到場，是不是請他稍微說明一下為什麼離開？"],["黃主任秘書文哲：跟委員報告，因為我剛剛要趕回去準備一下兩點鐘的記者會，我想說那邊記者會開完之後馬上就要過來，所以就沒有再跟主席報告，耽誤主席的時間。"],["主席：我跟你講，你有事情至少要跟我們知會一下，我們都沒有人知道你離開，所以剛剛有幾位委員在詢答的時候就對這個有意見了，先跟你說明一下這個狀況，那請回。","下一位我們請王鴻薇委員，王鴻薇委員、王鴻薇委員。","下一位請游顥委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","林國成","莊瑞雄","柯建銘","沈發惠","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","黃健豪","李昆澤","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","游顥","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","林沛祥","陳雪生"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一) 委員傅崐萁等33 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員傅崐萁等41 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 委員洪孟楷等25 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、 ( 四 ) 委員翁曉玲等 18 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案。"},{"start":253.883,"end":267.269,"text":"議員的專業資格的部分,如果大院有時候對專業資格的部分還需要精進,那當然是大院的職權嘛。所以你支持委員人士的機制應該要檢討嘛,對不對?沒有,目前運作起來來講沒有什麼太大的問題啊。沒有什麼太大的問題,結果現在是全國系統裡頭最混亂的。"},{"start":275.413,"end":277.514,"text":"委員傅崐萁等33人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。」"},{"start":297.393,"end":301.018,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":310.27,"end":337.45,"text":"所以因此在這樣的情況之下顯然大家有質疑喔NCC受外力的影響很大有沒有有沒有 有沒有當然沒有我們就是有7個委員去處理嘛我們都希望在這裡公開說明清楚您回答的是沒有但是我告訴您我支持國民黨的版本提案也就是檢討委員的人事機制同不同意"},{"start":338.428,"end":341.67,"text":"包括了行政院跟立法院皆有提名單。成立提名審查委員會"},{"start":362.964,"end":366.068,"text":"審查委員會組織法第四條、第六條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":377.392,"end":401.932,"text":"自己來說題目你才回答所以主委你冷靜三思好好地檢討因為尋答就是希望能夠說明再說明再說明能夠達成共識我們的目的就是要還給人民新聞自由還給民主的真諦對不對謝謝委員因為剛離開的官員到場是不是請他稍微說明一下為什麼離開"}]}},{"id":"151985","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151985","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b5b984ce0593435251e4149ad024bf7a855be169921a0a71728e36e00ee6b56215ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"13:12:39 - 13:24:38","影片長度":"00:11:59","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員傅崐萁等41人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1"},"duration":719,"end_time":"2024-05-01T13:24:38+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T13:12:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1214,"blocks":[["魯委員明哲：（13時12分）謝謝主席。有請陳耀祥主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["魯委員明哲：還有黃文哲主秘，以及平台事業管理處的黃副處長。"],["主席：請黃主秘、黃副處長。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不好意思，主秘下午回去主持記者會，先離開了。"],["魯委員明哲：主秘先離開了？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，不好意思。"],["魯委員明哲：那就請黃副處長。"],["主席：我不知道有人離開，沒有人跟我講有人離開這件事。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，不好意思。我剛剛是在問……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：這個一定要抗議，不能這樣子。"],["主席：沒有任何人跟我講這件事。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為我剛才在回答當中，沒注意到這個。謝謝，我們改進。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是改進，你要叫他趕快回來，怎麼可以隨便跑掉？國會落跑，不可以這樣子！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝。"],["主席：在座還有官員離開嗎？"],["楊委員瓊瓔：點名一下吧！我們在國會還是要按照規矩，哪有什麼離開、隨便走掉的？"],["主席：陳主委，我覺得這對國會真的是很不尊重！基本上很多時候有人要離開，他們跟我講一下，我都不會有意見，但是現在我從頭到尾不知道有人離開了。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他要離開前應該跟……"],["主席：對，他一定要跟我講一下。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為他離開的時候，我可能在忙著回答委員，我沒注意到……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：他現在人在哪裡？他在做什麼？怎麼可以這樣子？"],["李委員昆澤：雖然沒有休息時間，但若要離開，也要跟主席說一聲。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，我不曉得他沒有跟主席講，我本來以為他跟主席講了，因為我剛才在答詢，沒有注意他離開的這個事情。"],["主席：這樣子的話，我跟你講，如果他們成立譴責案，我覺得這是會被支持的。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。不好意思，這個是我們的疏失，就是我在回答的時候，主秘……"],["主席：這不是主委的問題，我的意思是，有官員離開，至少跟我們講一聲……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，應該跟主席報告。"],["主席：這個跟政治攻防無關……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒錯，這是我們的錯，我們跟主席道歉。就這個部分，我們請他趕快趕回來，因為他要離開這個會場，應該要跟主席報告，沒有錯。"],["主席：現在馬上叫他回來，一樣沒辦法處理事情，我們還是請魯委員繼續詢答。"],["魯委員明哲：我是覺得有點離譜啦！因為幾年前我問黃文哲主秘事情的時候，他還是處長，今天請他來做證人，結果證人不見了！好，沒關係。","其實這幾年來，每次看到我們陳主委，有時候真的非常非常生氣，但是再看你一眼，氣著氣著就笑了，如果民進黨政府沒有留幾位像你這樣的首長，我想也不會讓賴清德不過半。所以，我在想這個大家期待中立、獨立的NCC在這幾年來，人民的感覺跟我們很多委員的感覺，還有剛剛民進黨的部分立委對您很多表現，也不見得全部滿意，都一樣的道理。所以，我們希望事前能夠透過制度，今天提了一些組織法的修正，起心動念就是希望在源頭能夠提一些品質好的、優良的、中立的委員，在源頭就能夠來協助。因為這麼多年來，我們在事前或事情進行中問你，有百分之九十是一問三不知！知道的，也裝作不知道！一早問你陳建平的事情怎麼處理，你一直往旁邊看，就算事中知道的，你們也裝作不知道，立法院問不出任何東西。好吧！事中問不到，事後結案了，我們成立調閱小組，你也不給問，現在態度就這樣！","我今天就來舉個例子，看看到底發生了什麼事？NCC是打詐國家隊最重要的一員，結果前一陣子已經被起訴在案的前 NCC委員蕭祈宏，他是不是做過主秘？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他做過主秘，是事務官出身。"],["魯委員明哲：他位居要職，結果居然去當二類電信詐騙集團的門神，月領5萬元，違反公務員服務法的旋轉門的這個條款，我相信你們對這個部分都很清楚，也感覺到我們這機關因為他而蒙羞，他做過NCC的主秘，居然還搞這種事情，還是打詐國家隊的一員。請問你們內部有沒請他來約談、訪談或者詢問？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為他已經是平民身分，不是官員；不過我們相關的這個程序，就報導的部分，我們有請政風室去調查，內部也開過廉政會報……"],["魯委員明哲：你們有沒有問過蕭祈宏本人？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，因為這部分檢察官已經調查起訴，當時檢察官……"],["魯委員明哲：我跟你講，所有調查內容都在起訴書裡面，不要把它當作機密啦，未來當然是法院做最後決定，但他被起訴的內容要比你講的多一百倍啦！你現在講這個，那你當年為什麼約詢陳建平？為什麼約詢民間機構的董事長？因為有關嘛！請問你，為什麼有關？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們是請他到會陳述意見。"],["魯委員明哲：我現在請問一下，你有沒有找人去看，或是你自己有沒有去看他的起訴書？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我自己沒看，但是起訴書這個部分，我們沒有收到起訴書。"],["魯委員明哲：沒有去看喔？對於一個離職的委員發生這個事情，你們只是因為他是以前的老同事而蒙羞丟人，如果是這樣的話，事情還小一點……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，如果他是現職的公務員，或是有現職公務員在裡面，我們當然要調查，他已經完全離職了，而且……"],["魯委員明哲：我請問你一下，這個蕭祈宏利用他跟NCC以及跟中華電信綿密的人脈，打電話給NCC其他現任的委員，也引見現任NCC委員等官員，請問這個事情你們有沒有進行瞭解？他接觸了誰？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們有進行瞭解……"],["魯委員明哲：不是，誰嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他當時來講的話……"],["魯委員明哲：現任的喔！我現在講的是他接觸現任的喔！是誰？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們在檢察官調查以後知道是陳崇樹陳委員，就是我們的電信委員。"],["魯委員明哲：陳委員？陳委員這次還沒卸任嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有、沒有。"],["魯委員明哲：他還要繼續幹？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["魯委員明哲：繼續協助他？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，我們都依照法定程序去處理，他也經過檢察官以證人身分傳訊過，沒有問題啦。"],["魯委員明哲：沒問題齁？第二個是現在正好在現場的，蕭祈宏安排的NCC平台事業處黃姓副處長，是不是您？"],["黃副處長天陽：是。"],["魯委員明哲：安排您與二類電信詐騙電信集團的人認識，有沒有這種安排？是不是事實？"],["黃副處長天陽：跟委員報告，就是蕭委員有……"],["魯委員明哲：有沒有認識？有沒有見面？"],["黃副處長天陽：就是有見過一次面。"],["魯委員明哲：在哪裡見面？"],["黃副處長天陽：維持一次見面。"],["魯委員明哲：喝咖啡？吃飯？"],["黃副處長天陽：沒有，是在我的辦公室，因為我覺得……"],["魯委員明哲：他就直接來你辦公室了，是不是？"],["黃副處長天陽：因為蕭祈宏委員有介紹。跟委員報告，他是研究論文，因為二五電信的那位總經理也同時在念EMBA，他是說有論文的事情要跟我請教，就是有關電信市場5G的未來……"],["魯委員明哲：你跟他認識？"],["黃副處長天陽：我們只見過一次。"],["魯委員明哲：你知道他的背景嗎？"],["黃副處長天陽：跟委員報告，因為他……"],["魯委員明哲：我告訴你，就算他不是所謂詐騙集團的二類電信，是正常的電信，但他是你們監管的一些單位，你們可以這樣搞嗎？"],["黃副處長天陽：當時5月的時候，他也有說明他是二五電信，是有在我們電信事業登記的電信，討論的論文題目是5G未來發展的議題，我也有跟檢察官如實報告。"],["魯委員明哲：任何人進你們的一個office，之前翁柏宗的機要秘書黃馬煜也是在三年旋轉條款之內就進到鏡電視，今天不問，因為他要來嘛！他要擔任新的主委，到時候我會問他。我的意思是說這麼嚴重的事情，今天在座不分黨派的委員或者在座各位，就是有一位我們的前委員把這樣的詐騙集團帶到詐騙國家隊的核心，我不知道他說了什麼，或者你們願意說、不願意說，或者他願意說的一兩個人、一位委員一位副處長，還有其他他在主秘職位上認識的基層的員工，他到底在裡面做了些什麼事情。所以我在想，我們成立調閱小組，很多的事情包括陳建平董事長被你們不管是約談、訪談、約詢，到了黃文哲做處長的時候，對，約談了，我就要問那些約談的資料你們最後是怎麼處理的？因為早上委員問你，你說不太清楚，人家做了這麼多……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，我可不可以說明一下？那次的會議我剛好公出，沒有主持會議，所以的確那個案子的印象我不是很清楚。"],["魯委員明哲：那次主持會議的不是翁柏宗嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，那個資料後來都是送給政風室跟所謂的檢調單位去處理。"],["魯委員明哲：翁柏宗主持會議，會議完馬上舉行記者會的那一次嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那時候我剛好來立法院，所以我不在。比如說我今天禮拜三就沒有在委員會，而是來立法院。"],["魯委員明哲：好啦！好啦！我覺得你們有太多的秘密，也有很多的不管是內鬼或者內神，我們真的發覺很多的問號，只有你沒有發現。所以我們希望……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們有政風也有檢調單位去處理，我們自己查……"],["魯委員明哲：結果是什麼？你說政風，像這樣的有問題啊！你知道嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以檢察官有來調查，他們以證人的身分去檢察官那邊，都已經有調查過。"],["魯委員明哲：所以最後一句話，我是覺得真的，以現在的制度，我們期待一位大公無私的總統要提名不管是4位還是7位，要非常公平、符合社會期待、非常中立、非常公正，而不是假的無黨籍的委員，我覺得是緣木求魚，所以我們才在源頭跟尾巴由調閱小組來努力，我們也希望我們會有一些成果。謝謝！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝！"],["主席：請問一下剛剛那位聯繫上了嗎？"],["林處長勢玲：聯繫到了。"],["主席：接下來請楊瓊瓔委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","林國成","莊瑞雄","柯建銘","沈發惠","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","黃健豪","李昆澤","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","游顥","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","林沛祥","陳雪生"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一) 委員傅崐萁等33 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員傅崐萁等41 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 委員洪孟楷等25 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、 ( 四 ) 委員翁曉玲等 18 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不好意思我剛才是在問訊息說這個一定要抗議啊 不能這樣子啊剛剛 他是什麼因為沒有任何人跟我講這件事情因為我剛才也是在回答當中我也沒注意到這個好 謝謝 我們改進來這不是改進來 這要趕快回來的對對對 是是是那怎麼可以隨便跑掉"},{"start":65.489,"end":69.51,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":93.327,"end":110.56,"text":"陳主委,其實這個對國會真的是很不尊重啦,因為你們,我跟你講你們基本上很多時候人要離開,他們跟我講一下我都不會有意見,但我從頭到尾不知道有人離開了。對,他一定要跟我講一下。"},{"start":119.926,"end":127.194,"text":"條文修正草案案案件事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律事宜及法律"},{"start":141.905,"end":166.533,"text":"這個如果說他們成立譴責案我覺得這是會被支持的是是是不好意思這個因為這是我們的疏失就是說我在回答的時候我們不曉得那個主秘他剛才有說這不是主委的問題啦我意思是說有官員離開至少跟我們講一聲嘛對應該跟主席報告這個跟政治公那個沒有錯這是我們錯我們跟主席道歉那這個部分來講的話我們請他趕快趕回來"},{"start":167.453,"end":180.069,"text":"因為他要離開這個會場,應該要跟主席報告,沒有錯。好,那這樣齁,一樣齁,我們現在沒辦法,先忙交回來,一樣我們沒辦法處理事情,我們就還是請盧委員繼續詢答。"},{"start":183.662,"end":211.347,"text":"我是覺得有點離譜啦因為黃文哲主秘在幾年前我問他事情的時候他還是處長今天請他來做一個證人結果證人不見了好沒有關係其實每次看到我們陳主委這幾年來我真的有時候都非常非常生氣但是再看你一眼氣著氣著就笑了如果民進黨政府沒有留幾位像你這樣的這個首長的話這個我想不會有一位賴清德不過半"},{"start":213.28,"end":221.63,"text":"所以我在想這個大家期待中立獨立的NCC這是我每次講可是我們看到這幾年真的"},{"start":225.003,"end":251.764,"text":"人民的感覺跟我們自己很多委員的感覺剛剛民進黨立委也部分說對您很多表現不見得全部滿意都一樣的道理所以我們現在發覺我們希望事前透過制度今天有提了一些組織法的一個修正其實起心動念啦起心動念是希望源頭能夠提一些品質好的優良的中立的委員希望在源頭能夠來協助"},{"start":253.425,"end":260.61,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文"},{"start":269.216,"end":284.861,"text":"知道的也裝的不知道。立法院也問不出任何東西。事後呢?結案了。事後我們成立調閱小組。好吧?事終問不到。事後呢?調閱小組。你也不給問。現在態度就這樣。那我想請問一下,我今天就舉個例子。到底發生了什麼事?"},{"start":292.171,"end":312.636,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第21"},{"start":316.107,"end":318.508,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":332.691,"end":334.072,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":354.542,"end":357.123,"text":"交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案案案﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑一﹑"},{"start":384.258,"end":384.838,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":409.997,"end":413.518,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案案"},{"start":427.148,"end":442.401,"text":"打電話給其他現任的NCC的委員也引薦現任NCC委員等官員請問一下這個事情你們有沒有盡情了解是誰他接觸了誰"},{"start":443.647,"end":447.81,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案件"},{"start":463.319,"end":464.24,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":478.717,"end":495.607,"text":"小啟宏安排NCC平台事業處黃姓副處長是不是您?安排您以這個二類電信詐騙電信集團的認識有沒有這種安排是不是事實?有沒有認識有沒有見面?"},{"start":499.93,"end":517.869,"text":"就是有見過一次面﹖在哪見面﹖也就維持一次見面﹖喝咖啡、吃飯﹖沒有是在我的辦公室因為我覺得﹖他就直接來你辦公室了是不是因為委員透過消遣委員有介紹他說因為跟委員報告他是研究論文因為那個那個二五電信的"},{"start":519.731,"end":529.358,"text":"總經理也同時在念那個ENBA他是說有論文的事情要跟我們請教就是舊電信市場5G問題但你跟他認識你知道他的背景嗎?"},{"start":531.85,"end":546.617,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第4會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第6會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第7會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第8會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第9會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第10會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第11會期司法及"},{"start":559.588,"end":581.713,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組�"},{"start":583.513,"end":594.924,"text":"就是有一位我們的前委員把這樣的詐騙集團帶到詐騙國家隊的核心我不知道他說了什麼或者你們願意說不願意說或者他"},{"start":596.049,"end":614.63,"text":"立法院第11會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第十條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第21會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第22會期司法及法制"},{"start":617.353,"end":644.771,"text":"華文哲當時做處長的時候說對約談了我就要問那些約團的資料你們最後是怎麼處理的因為早上委員問你說不太清楚人家做的都這麼多陣欸委員我可不可以說明一下那一次那個會議我剛好公出沒有組織會議所以的確那個案子的印象我不是很清楚不是那組織會議不是翁伯忠嗎對那個資料後來都是送給孫鋒士跟所謂的檢調單位去處理"},{"start":648.914,"end":650.815,"text":"公博中組織會議主持會議完馬上舉行記者會的那一次嗎?"},{"start":663.217,"end":668.921,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第12屆第13屆議員會組織法第14屆議員會組織法第16屆議員會組織法第17屆議員會組織法第18屆議員會組織法第18屆議員會組織法第19屆議員會組織法第20屆議員會組織法第21屆議員會組織法第22屆議員會組織法第23屆議員會組織法第24屆議員會組織法第27屆議員會組織法第28屆議員會組織法第29屆議員會組織法第30屆議員會組"},{"start":682.412,"end":684.534,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":698.595,"end":705.181,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案"}]}},{"id":"151984","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151984","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bd688ebe4da5e2907900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e630711919470218920b9c28b85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"13:07:27 - 13:14:07","影片長度":"00:06:40","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 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應該是要跨部會去解決所以我希望說勞動部針對這部分你是不是可以說明一下你們未來要怎麼做"},{"start":285.751,"end":313.54,"text":"好 謝謝黃議員非常關心這個青年有些部分他的起薪比較低的問題那我們現在幾個方案包括說未來徵才如果說是低於這個3萬5他必須要有一些說明這個部分我們在這個政策上面已經開始執行另外我們也鼓勵說這個青年本身他可以加持他自己的這個比如說他去鼓勵他多考各種證照增加他雇用的比例"},{"start":314.54,"end":315.14,"text":"黃秀芳議員"},{"start":339.053,"end":342.496,"text":"政府針對我們所有社會新鮮人的這個低薪的議題我覺得應該是要跨部會去"},{"start":369.036,"end":372.159,"text":"經濟豐碩的這個果實應該是企業主跟所有的勞工一起分享的"},{"start":390.855,"end":399.888,"text":"謝謝黃秀芳委員質詢請接著請何欣淳委員何欣淳委員何欣淳委員不在謝亦鳳委員謝亦鳳委員謝亦鳳委員謝亦鳳委員不在鄭志前委員鄭志前委員鄭志前委員不在"}]}},{"id":"151983","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151983","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bcf10c34c43c8ff10900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e63071191920fe99b0e8b33c245ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳玉珍","委員發言時間":"12:55:24 - 13:07:15","影片長度":"00:11:51","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-11"},"duration":711,"end_time":"2024-05-01T13:07:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T12:55:24+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1306,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（12時55分）主席，請勞動部次長。"],["主席：有請許次長。"],["許次長傳盛：陳委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：次長好。今天是五一勞動節，因為政府機關沒有放假，所以讓很多勞工朋友、職員都要跟著我們一起工作、上班，實在是很辛苦。關於同時放假的事情，你們可能要好好考慮，全國可能要一致，這樣比較方便，是吧？請問你，因為是勞動節，我們當然要特別討論勞工權益的議題，次長，什麼叫基本工資？"],["許次長傳盛：跟陳委員報告，現在基本工資已經改為最低工資。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，最低工資。"],["許次長傳盛：當時關於基本工資的構想，是希望依照社會各種因素綜合考量之後，一個勞工領這樣的薪水，基本上他可以……"],["陳委員玉珍：現在是多少錢？"],["許次長傳盛：現在已經調到2萬7,470元。"],["陳委員玉珍：你知道什麼叫地域加給嗎？例如金門的地域加給。"],["許次長傳盛：大概就是在離島，或者是比較偏遠的地方，因工作的關係給他一些鼓勵。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，因為地理環境的緣故，例如從臺灣調過去，特別辛苦，所以給一點地域加給。請財政部也上來。"],["主席：請阮次長。"],["陳委員玉珍：基本工資應不應該把地域加給算進去？是內含還是外加？"],["許次長傳盛：地域加給是列為工資的一部分。"],["陳委員玉珍：例如給你1萬元，因為你在離島工作，所以再給你1萬7,000元，這樣就算符合最低工資？因為你說要有最低工資。"],["許次長傳盛：在算基本工資時，會把他的地域加給算進來，是他工資的一部分，它會加上……"],["陳委員玉珍：像那天我們在這邊問財政部，如果是同樣的工作，例如從臺灣調到金門，因為離島加給是從臺灣調到金門才有，例如兩位次長，你是本來就住在金門，假設你們都領最低工資2萬7,470元，而財政部次長是從臺灣調到金門，所以他應該領地域加給，假如加給是1萬元，所以他的工資是1萬7,000元，這樣可以嗎？你們的基本薪資會不一樣喔！你聽得懂本席在說什麼嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以他應該是領1萬7,000元，再加上外島的地域加給，這樣就是2萬7,000元，如果他調回臺灣，不就只領1萬7,000元？你聽得懂本席在說什麼嗎？這樣合理嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：有關基本工資，當時我們各種計算方式就是……"],["陳委員玉珍：我們現在叫最低工資。最低工資應該是二萬七千多元，沒錯嘛！你看看我們金門縣，這是政府單位，公營事業作業員的工資，是金門縣提報到行政院的。你看，作業員從第1級到第36級，第1級的最低工資才1萬4,600元，這樣也能核准嗎？勞動部沒有意見嗎？到了第17級還是2萬6,880元，第18級以上才是2萬7,650元，我們金門很多作業員，從第1級到第36級都有。你知道本席在說什麼嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：我知道。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以在金門縣政府工作的公營事業作業員，他們的基本工資有的是1萬4,000元，也有2萬1,000元的，這樣合法嗎？政府單位帶頭違法。"],["許次長傳盛：這個部分還要再加上剛才說的……"],["陳委員玉珍：就是你說的離島加給嘛！"],["許次長傳盛：對，已經超過……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以今天這個作業員如果調到臺灣，假設他是第10級好了，2萬1,510元，280個薪點，他調到臺灣之後就是領2萬1,510元喔！因為到金門工作，例如加1萬元的加給，才會變成三萬一千多元，以後調到臺灣就是領2萬1,510元。這樣合不合法？"],["許次長傳盛：他一樣還是要在基本工資以上，這個……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以他調到臺灣就變成2萬1,510元再加上6,000元。他再調回來呢？就變成2萬7加1萬就3萬7，所以要鼓勵金門的作業員先調到臺灣來，先把他符合沒有離島加給的最低工資，然後再調回來再加上離島加給，你聽得懂這個荒謬處嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：是，我知道。"],["陳委員玉珍：我為什麼請財政部次長站在這裡，因為有些公營事業單位，不過你們都有符合，所以沒有這個問題，泛公股銀行也在金門，它們都有符合，但是我們金門作業員沒有符合，而且還送到你們核定，你們勞動部到底有沒有重視勞工權益？金門的作業員沒有符合最低工資耶！縣政府的有領2萬1的。"],["許次長傳盛：我知道陳委員對這個議題非常關心，我們會轉給金門縣政府。"],["陳委員玉珍：不是轉給金門縣政府，你是主管單位，金門縣政府是發錢的，以後任何一個單位如果不符合最低工資，我們來這邊質詢，你也說我們轉給那個公司，讓他來問啊！你們是主管單位，不符合最低工資，不是你們要去糾舉或要求嗎？你聽得懂我的意思嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：以目前基本工資的算法，它加上地域加給九千多塊是有符合的。"],["陳委員玉珍：那我們講清楚，所以任何一個公司在金門，以後請人就是2萬塊，因為現在離島加給大概九千多，算1萬元好了，以後我請人發的公告就是減1萬，1萬7，我徵人1萬7，但是我說我們有離島加給，再給你1萬元，這樣可以就對了！以後這樣公告可以喔！"],["許次長傳盛：公告一定要在基本薪資以上。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是這樣子嘛！你剛說這樣是可以的，我要知道你的標準。"],["許次長傳盛：我不是說這樣可以。"],["陳委員玉珍：以後我招人，我那一家民營企業、任何企業在金門的、在離島的，我說我給的薪水就是1萬7，但是另外再給你離島加給1萬元，可以喔！您瞭解我在說什麼嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：我可以理解，現在就是說……"],["陳委員玉珍：可以這樣子喔？可以這樣子喔？你告訴我可以就好，可以嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：你要招人的時候，公告上面就是不可以低於基本工資。"],["陳委員玉珍：我就講清楚嘛！以後我的工資就是給1萬7，另外給你離島加給1萬元，就符合2萬7嘛！"],["許次長傳盛：這就違反基本工資的規定。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以以後到金門去的廠商記得用1萬7起跳，這樣是不是？"],["許次長傳盛：我想這個部分有一些……"],["陳委員玉珍：因為有的公司是臺灣本島在金門也有分行，以後調回臺灣再另外給就對了？你聽得懂我在說什麼吧！"],["許次長傳盛：我可以理解。"],["陳委員玉珍：這件事情什麼時候幫我檢討一下？"],["許次長傳盛：是，我想我會把……"],["陳委員玉珍：把地域加給排除在基本工資的計算之外，2週內給我檢討，好嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：這部分我們請相關同仁來研究。"],["陳委員玉珍：研究看看好不好？這樣不符合最低工資嘛！對不對？"],["許次長傳盛：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：不然地域概念的目的是什麼？就是說你辛苦，所以你調過去特別給你，你把它算在基本工資，跟有的公司一樣，有的公司很不注重勞動權益都是這樣子，給你講ABCD加一加就有這麼多錢，你們勞動部不能做這種示範，尤其政府部門不能這樣做，好嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：是的。"],["陳委員玉珍：謝謝。財政部，儲蓄投資特別扣除額的部分，以前69年是全部免稅，78年12萬元，現在大概是27萬元。"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：現在進入升息和高通膨，這都沒有檢討，這個門檻，以前最低工資8,800元，現在2萬7，整個物價……"],["阮次長清華：27萬元。"],["陳委員玉珍：整個物價通膨很嚴重，門檻是不是可以調高？因為很多退休的人是靠這個利息過活的，現在利息當然是很低，儲蓄投資特別扣除額的免稅門檻可不可以提高？"],["阮次長清華：目前的儲蓄投資特別扣除額是27萬元，如果按照目前的1年期定期存款利率1.715%來換算的話，存款差不多1,600萬元。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，一千多萬元，我們說的是靠利息收入來過活的人。"],["阮次長清華：但是相對來講，他的資力比一般人高很多。"],["陳委員玉珍：我們現在說免稅，一千多萬元退休事實上也是不夠用，有的人退休後沒有再謀生的能力，有的人比較保守就是靠這個，難道你鼓勵他投資ETF或什麼，這樣風險也很高，有的人就是比較穩健，因為這的確是一些退休軍公教，錢很少啦！你們這個部分是不是可以檢討一下，畢竟七十幾年至今已經很多年了，也應該可以檢討。"],["阮次長清華：這個部分我們當然會帶回去。"],["陳委員玉珍：研究一下好嗎？"],["阮次長清華：但是基本上我覺得……"],["陳委員玉珍：多久可以給我資料？"],["阮次長清華：還是要考慮到衡平性。"],["陳委員玉珍：但你要考慮整個時空環境改變，民進黨、執政黨都這樣說。"],["阮次長清華：1個月內我們……"],["陳委員玉珍：物價也改變，當初最低工資也改變，所有事情都應該要思考一下，好嗎？"],["阮次長清華：但是他跟一般的民眾比較，資力好很多。"],["陳委員玉珍：2個禮拜內給我一個報告好嗎？"],["阮次長清華：1個月好不好？"],["陳委員玉珍：好，1個月，謝謝。","主計長，上次我一直問你金門財力級次調整，你看內政部林右昌部長要退以前，里長1個半月的年終獎金，體察民意。"],["朱主計長澤民：那個要內政部提出來。"],["陳委員玉珍：我現在不是講這個，我只是舉例給你聽，你們主計總處的陳慧娟副主計長，在我們金門縣有開一個首長會議，談到金門的財力分級問題，張景森政委也覺得金門的財力為第三級是不合理的，張政委有找你們副主計長陳慧娟來開會，你知道這件事吧！"],["朱主計長澤民：我當然知道，他也叫我們好好研究，我們一定會好好研究。"],["陳委員玉珍：520之前研究出來可以嗎？不然你要退……"],["朱主計長澤民：我會交代下一任的主計長，他們會好好的研究。"],["陳委員玉珍：這樣為德不卒，林右昌要下任前都把1.5個月年終獎金弄出來了，學習一下。"],["朱主計長澤民：要我同意，他才可以那個……"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你還不同意？你不同意，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：我沒有說不同意。"],["陳委員玉珍：你同意嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：他徵求我的意見。"],["陳委員玉珍：你同意嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我說請他們好好評估。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以還沒有決定就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：我不曉得……"],["主席：問到晚上，他也不會跟你講答案啦！"],["陳委員玉珍：所以他還不知道，還沒有確定就對了？所以你是打臉林右昌？"],["朱主計長澤民：我現在講如果到這裡，錢的問題我們是通盤考慮，就像你的第五級一樣。"],["陳委員玉珍：就跟金門財力第五級一樣，跟里長年終獎金都要通盤考慮，是不是？"],["朱主計長澤民：里長報酬的問題也是內政部要有方案出來。"],["陳委員玉珍：好好評估，謝謝。"],["主席：接著請黃秀芳委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-11","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王世堅","李坤城","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","顏寬恒","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","黃秀芳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就\n「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質\n薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.60846875,"end":6.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.84471875,"end":3.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.105968750000001,"end":12.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.56909375,"end":20.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.33159375,"end":23.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.94284375,"end":28.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.460968750000003,"end":30.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.047218750000003,"end":43.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.072218750000005,"end":33.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.68284375,"end":40.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.12971875,"end":45.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.03659375,"end":50.453468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.727843750000005,"end":50.352218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.453468750000006,"end":50.470343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.470343750000005,"end":52.00596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.00596875,"end":54.94221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.07721875,"end":56.359718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.102218750000006,"end":61.742843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.337843750000005,"end":65.92784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.07971875,"end":67.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.39596875000001,"end":68.03721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.25659375000001,"end":70.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.55159375000001,"end":71.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.31096875,"end":71.95221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.88034375000001,"end":76.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.38159375000001,"end":79.47846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.82846875,"end":83.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.05596875,"end":83.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.19096875000001,"end":86.54909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.66721875,"end":98.56409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.71346875,"end":88.01721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.86784375,"end":100.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.20096875,"end":108.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.00159375000001,"end":119.94471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.13034375000001,"end":122.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.34096875,"end":127.23471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.52159375000001,"end":144.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.90284375000002,"end":152.24346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.85096875000002,"end":153.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.33596875,"end":156.04034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.90096875,"end":158.31846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.31846875000002,"end":158.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.06096875,"end":159.48284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.75284375,"end":164.25846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.41034375,"end":167.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.24096875,"end":169.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.16471875000002,"end":170.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.72159375,"end":171.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.66221875000002,"end":180.18846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.04534375,"end":183.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.61409375000002,"end":185.67284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.97659375,"end":191.98409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.52034375000002,"end":189.53721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.55409375000002,"end":189.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.49034375000002,"end":197.09721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.56971875000002,"end":201.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.95721875,"end":211.49159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.11596875,"end":215.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.26284375,"end":226.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.40471875,"end":229.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.44659375,"end":230.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.58971875,"end":233.86784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.96909375,"end":237.24284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.29784375000003,"end":237.27659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.27659375000002,"end":239.01471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.96846875000003,"end":238.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.33971875,"end":249.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.40534375000001,"end":253.10534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.22346875000002,"end":255.23159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.14284375,"end":259.68659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.19346875,"end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假設你們都領最低工資領兩萬七嘛那我們財政部的次長是在台灣他從台灣調到金門來的那他說他的他應該領兩萬七那他是含他的離島一萬一萬的加給好了所以他應該是領一萬就對了他的工資就是一萬就對了然後再加上一萬一萬七再加上一萬這樣可以嗎你們的基本就會不一樣喔"},{"start":156.943,"end":170.893,"text":"你女朋友的我還說什麼吧?是是對不對?所以他應該是領一萬一萬七然後再將外島的家籍就地域家籍一萬就兩萬七那以後他調回台灣他不就領一萬七?女朋友的我在說什麼嗎?你給我喊你"},{"start":173.254,"end":200.971,"text":"我想跟陳委員報告這個有關於基本工資當時我們各種的計算方式沒有我們現在叫最低工資我們在把講最低工資應該是兩萬七嘛兩萬七千多啦沒錯嘛你看看我們金門縣這是政府單位公營事業作業員的工資這還是金門縣合給行政院的你看這個這種就是作業員作業員從第一級到第36級你們這個第一級的最低的工資才一萬四千六百啊"},{"start":202.292,"end":215.44,"text":"這樣也能準嗎?勞動部你沒有意見嗎?到了17級都還是26880,到了18級以上才是27650啊!我們金門這個很多作業員啊,1到36都有啊!你知道我在說什麼嗎?所以在金門縣政府的那些公營事業作業員,他們的基本工資是也有14000的啦,也有21000的啦!阿你有合法嗎?政府單位拜託違法啊!"},{"start":231.616,"end":243.781,"text":"我跟陳委員報告他這個部分還要再加上他的這個剛剛講的就是你說那個離島佳績嗎對 已經超出了所以這個作業如果今天調到台灣去原來假設他是我們隨便舉他第10集好了21510啦280個新臨 21510他調到台灣去以後他就領21510喔"},{"start":250.458,"end":266.317,"text":"因為他到金門加了1萬才會變3萬1啊舉例那以後掉到台灣他就領2萬1喔這樣合不合法一樣他還是要在基本工資以上所以他掉到台灣去掉到台灣倒來就變成2萬1再加上6千那好他再掉回來呢"},{"start":269.719,"end":281.638,"text":"他掉下來就變2萬7再掉回來再加1萬就3萬7所以要鼓勵金門的這個這個作業員天掉到台灣來先把他符合基本沒有離島家籍的最低工資他再掉回來再加上離島家籍"},{"start":283.055,"end":306.745,"text":"你聽得懂這個荒謬處嗎因為我為什麼請財政部市長站在這裡因為有些公營事業單位啦不過你們都有符合啦所以沒有這個問題我是要讓這一樣是方工股銀行也在金門嘛他們是都有符合啦我們金門這個作業員這個沒有符合而且還送到你們合訂喔送到你們行政院來這個你們勞動部到底有沒有重視勞工權益啊金門的這個作業員"},{"start":308.971,"end":336.845,"text":"沒有符合最低工資有領兩萬一的先政府的我知道那個成員對這議題非常關心我們會轉給金門縣政府你是主管單位金門縣政府是發錢的以後任何一個單位如果不符合最低工資我們來這邊質詢你也說我們轉給那個公司讓他來問你們是主管單位不符合最低工資不是你們要去糾舉或是去要求嗎"},{"start":338.725,"end":364.394,"text":"以目前的基本公司的算法他加上地域佳績所以任何一個公司在金門那我們講清楚任何一個公司在金門以後就是說我請人的話就是兩萬塊再加上因為現在離島價大概是九千算一萬好了以後我請人就是我發的公告就是減一萬兩萬七一萬七我真人一萬七然後說但是我們有外島佳績離島佳績再多給你一萬塊這樣可以就對了以後這樣公告可以喔"},{"start":365.054,"end":366.816,"text":"公告一定要在基本性之下。"},{"start":382.444,"end":401.536,"text":"您了解我在說什麼嗎?我可以理解,現在就是說...可以這樣子喔!可以這樣子喔!你告訴我可以就好!不然...可以嗎?你要招人的時候公告上面是不可以低基本薪資以後我的工資就是給1萬7另外給你...不,這樣...這是違反我們基本工資的規定1萬就符合2萬7嘛所以以後到金門區的廠商記得就是反正用1萬7起跳這樣是不是?"},{"start":402.659,"end":421.607,"text":"我想這個部分就是這樣子嗎?因為有的公司是台灣本島也有分行金門也有分行那以後調回台灣去再另外給就對了你聽得懂我在說什麼吧?我可以理解你這個事情什麼時候幫我檢討一下?是我想我會把把第一佳績排除在基本工資的計算之外你兩週內給我檢討好嗎?"},{"start":424.105,"end":448.9,"text":"這部分我們請相關委員來研究研究看看好不好這樣不符合最低工資嘛對不對換第一概念的目的是幹嘛因為就是說那裡辛苦所以你調過去特別給你嘛那你把它算在基本公司那跟有的公司一樣啊有的公司很不注重勞動權益都這樣子啊給你講這個ABCD加一加就有這麼多錢對不對你們勞動部不能做這種示範嘛對尤其在政府部門不能這樣做好嗎是的"},{"start":450.301,"end":460.291,"text":"好 謝謝來那個財政部那個逐序那個投資特別扣除額的部分以前是全部69年全部免稅78年12萬現在大概現在是27萬現在進入這個升息和高通膨這個都沒有檢討那以前你看門檻基本工資以沿基本工資就最低是8800現在27000那現在的話這個整個物價也通膨很嚴重"},{"start":474.884,"end":475.925,"text":"目前的儲蓄投資特別扣除的是27萬"},{"start":491.905,"end":512.414,"text":"如果按照目前的一年期的定期存款利率1.715來算的話換算的話大概他的存款大概是一千差不多一千六百萬對一千多萬我們說的是靠利息收入來過活的人但是相對來講他的資歷比一般人高很多我們在說這個免稅一千多萬"},{"start":513.354,"end":534.223,"text":"退休事實上也是不夠用嘛那有人沒有在退休後沒有生存沒有沒有在謀生的這個能力嘛但是靠那個有人比較保守嘛就是靠這樣子難道你鼓勵他當你有1000多還不錯很多鼓勵他再投這個ETF啊投什麼這樣風險也很高嘛有人就是比較穩健的嘛因為這的確是一些退休的一些軍工叫錢很少啊"},{"start":535.043,"end":554.88,"text":"你們這個部分是不是可以檢討一下因為畢竟整個有沒有整個已經70幾年了很多年了也應該可以檢討啊這部分我們當然會帶回去了研究一下好嗎當然基本上我是覺得還是要考慮到橫平性當然你要考慮橫平但你要考慮整個時空環境改變民進黨、執行黨都這樣說時空環境改變"},{"start":559.104,"end":559.764,"text":"主計長 時間剩30秒 走路時間要扣掉"},{"start":585.575,"end":611.291,"text":"我要請問你來來我上次一直問你金門財力調整喔那我會領齁之前這個我希望齁你看人家內政部林右昌部長對不對要退以前里長一個半月的年終獎金對不對體察民意那個要內政部提出來我現在不再講這個我在問你的事情我只是舉例給你聽不用急你們的主計總處的陳富堅副主計長喔"},{"start":612.412,"end":639.116,"text":"在這個我們金門縣有開一個所長會議有在說金門的財力分級的問題那張景森政委也覺得金門的財力分為這個第三級是不合理的張政委有找你們副主計長陳慧娟來開會你知道這件事嗎我當然知道他有叫我們好好研究我們一定會好好研究一定會好好研究那在520之前研究出來可以嗎不然你都要那個退休那個是我"},{"start":640.036,"end":663.266,"text":"今天還有20天我會交代下一任的主計長他會好好的演講這樣為德不足啊林佑昌要下任前都把1萬5這個1.5個月的年終獎項都弄出來了那個是由我要我同意他才可以喊那個所以你還不同意來來來問一下你不同意對不對那你同意嗎那你同意嗎"},{"start":666.957,"end":679.197,"text":"好好的幹嘛評估所以還沒有決定就對了是不是今天問到晚上他也不會跟你講答案所以他還不知道還沒有確定就對了所以你是打臉你誘餐喔好陳委員"},{"start":680.828,"end":682.529,"text":"接著我們請黃秀芳委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"151982","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151982","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b84d97f0e3ad6d2581e4149ad024bf7a87f5010e6307119196ddaa78d60d08baa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"13:05:14 - 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案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具"},{"start":265.287,"end":292.288,"text":"一定會把你追到底,民進黨沒有永遠執政,法院不是永遠民進黨開的,監察院不是永遠民進黨開的,大法官憲法會不是永遠民進黨開的,你的所犯所刑,你的賭職圖利,一定終究會讓你郎當入獄,會讓你痛苦萬分後悔不已,不要因為短暫的小人得勢,"},{"start":293.854,"end":312.323,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案（事由．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案（事由．委員洪孟楷等41人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．事由．委員洪孟楷等41人擬具"},{"start":319.602,"end":346.78,"text":"我們再次的強調言論自由是一個國家最基本的憲法保障的自由而被你把整個國家民主制度完殘至此職任者不愛聽的我就把你關掉職任者愛聽的多少利益我都給你多少執照都可以核發多少違法亂機都可以核准所以我們要再一次啊真的是"},{"start":348.79,"end":376.723,"text":"為三十年前這些民進黨的創黨的先賢先烈深刻的表達惋惜為他們感到不值今天把國家的一個言論自由完成至此而且主席本席要再強調一下未來像這種干擾意識你隨時可以要求是不是要停止討論我們可以來做表決"},{"start":378.203,"end":403.295,"text":"不要以為你不斷地釋放善意可以得到正面的回應,這個都是多餘的。」剛剛莊烈雄委員也在場,他跟陳其邁委員在民國105年在委員會也提出了將法務部部長移送監察院。"},{"start":404.707,"end":421.058,"text":"而且也經過委員會決議通過。今天在這裡一樣的人坐在這裡還在爭持委員會為什麼不能通過決議我們再一次的表達主席的善意會主席的善意釋放足夠就好我們的會議還是要進行他們擾亂議事就是不讓"},{"start":426.943,"end":429.425,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案。"}]}},{"id":"151981","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151981","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bdf618393e813d34caf7b9089f19fa5f77f5010e630711919886f62d9cd790b2b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"09:25:32 - 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12:54:36","影片長度":"00:10:28","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員傅崐萁等41人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1"},"duration":628,"end_time":"2024-05-01T12:54:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T12:44:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1069,"blocks":[["吳委員宗憲：（12時44分）我們請主委。"],["主席：主委，我還沒請你，你要照程序來。","現在請我們來自屏東的陳耀祥主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["吳委員宗憲：主委好。我先給你看一個東西，就是去年6月28日我們臺灣有舉辦一個世界新聞媒體的年會開幕，當時副總統賴清德出席的時候，他致詞說，新聞自由是臺灣的核心價值，而且說臺灣的媒體可以報導任何想報導的內容，也可以不受拘束地批評政府，請問主委認同這句話嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然啊。新聞自由本來就是臺灣的民主價值。"],["吳委員宗憲：那我請教主委，因為剛剛黃國昌委員有提到說，你今天一早到立法院之後，就去民進黨黨團，那你有同時去國民黨或民眾黨的黨團嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：黨團來邀請，我當然會去啊。基本上，我們要溝通相關的法案或預算，這個本來就是主委的責任。"],["吳委員宗憲：那這樣你的老闆是民進黨。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是啊。在政黨政治、責任政治，作為主委，本來就是對於法律案或相關議案都應該要處理。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，國家通訊傳播委員會的組織法第一條有一句話叫黨政軍退出媒體。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒錯。"],["吳委員宗憲：但是你有做到這個嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然啊。"],["吳委員宗憲：那為什麼你來就直接去民進黨團拜會？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我是一個政務官，黨政軍退出媒體是規範媒體本身，那我這個政務官來國會，當然本來就是在各黨團裡面要拜會，比如說，像交委會的委員上任的話，我們也會去拜會各個委員一樣。"],["吳委員宗憲：那你今天來這邊接受詢答，你都不知道要迴避喔？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這不是迴避的問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：在這個敏感的時候，你沒有迴避一下？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：因為這個就是法案的問題，這就是要討論法案的議題嘛。"],["吳委員宗憲：好啦。你之前做了那麼多事，我們也都很清楚。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，我想每一屆委員也都是這樣做。"],["吳委員宗憲：我沒有問你這個問題。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，是。"],["吳委員宗憲：那我跟你講，我現在先跟你談第一個問題，我請問一下，你們最近北高行109年訴字1435號中天電視換照這個案子，你們敗訴的理由是什麼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：北高行是針對程序和評分標準的部分認為我們有違法，所以判我們敗訴，但是我們……"],["吳委員宗憲：你們怎麼樣？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：判我們敗訴，但是我們認為北高行不瞭解我們整個換照的進行和標準的參採，所以我們有上訴。"],["吳委員宗憲：北高行的判決理由讓我覺得，如果我是一個機關被這樣判，我會覺得滿丟臉的，因為它直接告訴你們，你們審查所依據的標準就錯了嘛，對不對？它說你們要用哪一個，你記得嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：報告委員，基本上這是北高行對我們的評分標準的誤解，所以我們有就這個部分提出上訴，坦白說，跟委員報告……"],["吳委員宗憲：我來幫你講，它說你應該準用107年2月8日的審查辦法的評分基準，但是你們卻用109年的，那我覺得這個是不是很離譜？如果照你們這樣講，那你在學校當老師，對學生的評分標準可以到時候改來改去嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，沒有改來改去啊。"],["吳委員宗憲：法院的判決是這樣啊。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：他認為說我們……"],["吳委員宗憲：所以你就是說這個法官是笨蛋亂判嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是，我是覺得他不瞭解。跟委員報告，本來我們評鑑換照是很專業，比如說，很細節的部分，這個本來就是我們依照所有的標準都一樣，今天這個標準不是只有對中天，所有的，包括中天綜合台，甚至於其他新聞台換照，都是同一套標準，沒有這個問題。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，NCC現在在很多人的眼中，臺灣的媒體在大部分人的眼中是怎麼樣，我覺得大家心裡都已經有定見了。那我也尊重你是從學界來的，但是我今天看到北高行的判決，根本就不是你的說法嘛。它就直接說，你們使用的評分基準是有問題的，然後用這個理由來對你們下敗訴的判決，那這個判決在這裡非常清楚，我也看過判決，所以我對你們的評價就是，依據判決的認定，我認為你們今天的評分標準可以改來改去，今天對這一個人用這個評分標準，對下一個人又用下一個評分標準，這個我不認同啦。就像法官不認同你們NCC這次的做法一樣，我剛剛說的，全部是依照北高行的判決來論述，你也不用跟我解釋那麼多。如果你們有意見，你之後再去上訴。你們去上訴之後，再去提你們的意見。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們已經上訴了。"],["吳委員宗憲：那我再請教你下一個問題。這一次調查委員會有去跟你們調閱鏡電視的資料，為什麼可以不給？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有啊。因為大法官設了三個要件，我們是請教交委會所謂的特定議案是指什麼，請它解釋清楚，這會涉及到我們提供資料的範圍……"],["吳委員宗憲：第一個，我跟你講什麼叫特定議案，它沒有告訴你是哪一個案子嗎？它沒有告訴你為什麼要調嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：它沒有講說是預算案、法律案、條約還是什麼。憲法第六十三條寫得很清楚嘛，這是大法官寫的，這也不是我寫的。"],["吳委員宗憲：拜託，你們今天審的這個跟法律無關嗎？跟重大事由無關嗎？新聞自由也是言論自由的一部分，言論自由是憲法保障的。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然。"],["吳委員宗憲：憲法保障的東西不重要嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然重要啊。但是立法院行使職權也要告訴行政機關你們要什麼東西嘛。"],["吳委員宗憲：什麼時候NCC變成立法院的上級機關了？你可以來解釋立法院跟你要的東西？看你爽不爽是不是？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這是大法官寫的，不是我寫的。"],["吳委員宗憲：你先不要講話，現在NCC是立法院的上級機關嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，沒有。"],["吳委員宗憲：立法院跟你要東西，你爽就給，不爽就說不符合釋字第729號的規定，是這樣子解釋的嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個第729號是大法官自己寫的，不是我自己講的。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講啦，鏡電視的申請到底有沒有特定議案，我想是非常的清楚，已經告訴你是要鏡電視的申設案，而且要事前執照核發的資料，我們也明確要求你，事中要怎麼做、事後有沒有違反當初的申請計畫的承諾，這些資料都要，我覺得這個東西非常明確，並不像你剛剛講的不明確，而且這不是偵查中的案子，這個跟裴偉是不是被告也完全無關，我不懂為什麼你們可以覺得我不爽就不給你們。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有這個……"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講啦！之前調查慶富案的時候，人家就沒有那麼多意見，立法院要調資料，他們該給的就都給，為什麼今天到NCC來，NCC就可以不用給？另外，你們審照是依據衛星傳播電視法，所以你也不要跟我說這跟法律案完全無關，你也不要跟我說這個跟國家重要事項無關，因為言論自由就是憲法保障的，是憲法保障的人民基本權利，在憲法第二章，只要是跟憲法保障有關的，都是國家的重要事項。更何況民進黨整天就是要言論自由、言論自由，但是都沒有做到。","我最後跟你講一個東西，我跟你說，我從來不覺得我們臺灣是制度發生問題，我自己這段時間看下來，問題都在人，制度都沒有問題，所有制度的設計都非常好，結果到我們臺灣來，所有的制度都被人在玩弄，要嘛你們就鑽漏洞，要嘛你們就是去濫用權力，我今天看到的就是這樣。NCC的存在非常棒，這也是言論自由保障的一環，但是就是有人去濫用這個制度，濫用這個權限，用這個東西去做政治攻擊，包括我們的監察院也是，一堆人濫用監察權去做政治攻擊，包括一堆人濫用NCC的權力去做政治攻擊，這個就是我看到的制度。制度沒問題，但是濫用的是人。謝謝各位。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：制度沒問題，就不應該修法嘛。謝謝。"],["主席：感謝吳委員、陳主委。"],["吳委員宗憲：我跟你講，制度原本設計沒有問題，就是人濫用制度，所以我們今天不得不就組織法去修法，更嚴謹地去排除濫用權力的這些人。今天制度原本的設計非常美好，但是就是有人濫用，濫用之後，逼得我們不得不去修改制度。我要告訴你的就是這個，其他你不用再發言了。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝。"],["主席：不管有什麼樣的情緒，你既然是政務官，維持對本院適度、基本的尊重，這是應該的。吳委員剛才對你說的，你們對不同的媒體用不同的標準審查，這個在內部去做內部檢討就好，做內部檢討，你如果認為問心無愧，你就對我說明，你在這裡跟委員一支長一支短，如果是民進黨的委員跟你意見不一樣，你這樣，我也會向你表達一樣的意見，我們南部人都很單純嘛，對不對？","本會休息3分鐘。","休息（12時54分）","繼續開會（12時58分）"],["主席（吳委員宗憲）：謝謝。會議繼續。","下一位請洪孟楷委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","林國成","莊瑞雄","柯建銘","沈發惠","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","黃健豪","李昆澤","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","游顥","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","林沛祥","陳雪生"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一) 委員傅崐萁等33 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員傅崐萁等41 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 委員洪孟楷等25 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、 ( 四 ) 委員翁曉玲等 18 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":4.4353437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.443468750000001,"end":9.41346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.72971875,"end":12.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.239093750000002,"end":20.078468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.078468750000003,"end":20.449718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.449718750000002,"end":21.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.10784375,"end":21.141593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.141593750000002,"end":23.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.78659375,"end":25.984718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.722843750000003,"end":32.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.34971875,"end":39.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.38346875,"end":39.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.53534375,"end":40.024718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.024718750000005,"end":41.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.88034375,"end":66.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.04159375,"end":68.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.23534375,"end":77.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.36471875000001,"end":81.36846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.53721875000001,"end":86.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":86.97096875000001,"end":93.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.60284375,"end":103.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.00659375000001,"end":103.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.82909375000001,"end":103.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.98096875,"end":104.01471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.01471875,"end":104.03159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.03159375000001,"end":119.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.92534375000001,"end":109.11096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.93284375,"end":115.60784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.67909375,"end":124.36596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.48409375000001,"end":126.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.18846875000001,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.31034375000002,"end":134.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.33909375000002,"end":138.05159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.20346875,"end":141.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.55784375000002,"end":145.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.11409375,"end":143.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.48909375,"end":146.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.50596875000002,"end":151.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.09159375000002,"end":163.14471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.59346875,"end":154.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.85409375,"end":159.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":159.88784375,"end":160.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.66784375,"end":168.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.69659375,"end":170.51909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.51909375000002,"end":170.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.37971875000002,"end":171.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.73409375,"end":171.85221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.40909375,"end":181.48784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.49221875,"end":181.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":181.79159375,"end":188.27159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.17971875,"end":182.85471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.32221875000002,"end":188.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":188.55846875,"end":192.01784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.87471875,"end":190.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.46534375000002,"end":196.08471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.62471875,"end":206.04096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.14221875,"end":211.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.96409375000002,"end":223.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.33409375000002,"end":221.97096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.57846875,"end":239.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.60534375,"end":243.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.91284375,"end":253.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.17409375000003,"end":246.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.39721875,"end":251.06346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":253.88159375,"end":262.38659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.72409375,"end":270.31784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.18721875,"end":295.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":286.45034375,"end":287.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.00159375000004,"end":328.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":324.63846875,"end":327.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":328.772843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我們請 呃 主委我不會請你 你 要叫警署來"},{"start":27.779,"end":31.922,"text":"現在請我們來自屏東的丹耀雄主委。好,主委好。來,主委"},{"start":46.957,"end":67.871,"text":"昨年6月28日我們台灣有舉辦一個世界新聞媒體的年會開幕當時副總統賴清德出席的時候他就致詞說新聞自由是台灣的核心價值而且說台灣的媒體可以報導任何想報導的內容也可以不受拘束的批評政府請問"},{"start":69.292,"end":92.874,"text":"主委認同這句話嗎?那我請教主委齁,因為剛剛黃國昌委員有提到說你今天一早就到立法院之後就去民進黨黨團嘛那你有同時去國民黨或民眾黨的黨團嗎?那個黨團的邀請我當然會去啊,就基本上我們要溝通的相關的法案或預算這個本來就是主委的責任"},{"start":93.635,"end":94.135,"text":"國際通訊傳播委員會組織法第1條黨政軍退出媒體"},{"start":112.824,"end":132.341,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期"},{"start":138.266,"end":139.209,"text":"這不是迴避的問題這就是法案的問題這是今天要討論法案的議題"},{"start":148.273,"end":153.955,"text":"你之前做了那麼多事我們也都很清楚我沒有問你這個問題我現在先跟你談第一個問題請問一下你們最近北高行109年數字1435號中天電視換照的你們的敗訴理由是什麼"},{"start":172.795,"end":180.677,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織"},{"start":197.261,"end":200.002,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案案"},{"start":220.566,"end":242.335,"text":"我來幫你講他說你應該準用107年2月8號的審查辦法的評分基準但是你們卻用109年的那我覺得這個是不是很離譜那如果照你們這樣講那你在學校當老師那學生評分標準可以到時候改來改去嗎?"},{"start":242.935,"end":245.898,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案"},{"start":262.876,"end":286.315,"text":"今天這個標準不是只有在中天,所謂的包括中天、中澳台甚至其他的新聞台、環州都是同一道標準,沒有這個問題我跟你講喔,NCC現在在很多人的眼中,台灣的媒體在大部分人的眼中我覺得怎麼樣大家心裡都已經有定見了啦那我也尊重你是從學界來的但是呢,我今天看到的北高型的判決,它根本就不是你的說法嘛"},{"start":286.715,"end":297.439,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等31人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組�"},{"start":316.425,"end":339.919,"text":"我剛說的全部是依照北高型的判決來論述你也不用跟我解釋那麼多如果你們有意見你之後你再去上訴之後你們再去提你們的意見那我再請教你下一個問題來那個我們這一次有委員會有調查委員會有去跟你們調閱資料調閱那個進電視的資料為什麼可以不給"},{"start":344.861,"end":359.953,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第19條條文修正草案．立法院第19條條文修正草案．立法院第20條條文修正草案．立法院第21條條文修正草案．立法院第22條條文修正草案．立法院第23條條文修正草案．立法院第24條條文修正草案．立法院第27條條文修"},{"start":374.825,"end":380.949,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會及法制、交通委員會及法制、交通委員會及法制、交通委員會及法制、交通委員會及法制"},{"start":394.218,"end":408.931,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．一）委員併案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．一）立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員"},{"start":418.424,"end":426.891,"text":"立法院第14屆第11會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16屆第17屆第18屆第19屆第20屆第21屆第22屆第23屆第24屆第27屆第28屆第28屆第29屆第30屆第40屆第41屆第41屆第41屆第42屆第42屆第42屆第43屆第44屆第45屆第46屆第47屆第47屆第47屆第48屆第48屆第49屆第49屆第50屆第50屆第51屆第51屆第52屆第52屆第52屆第53屆第53屆第53屆第54屆第54屆第54屆第56屆第56屆第57屆第57屆第57"},{"start":445.047,"end":472.142,"text":"這個跟培委是不是被告也完全無關我不懂為什麼你們可以覺得這樣我不爽就不給你們我跟你講啦之前慶富案的時候調查人家就沒有那麼多意見啦立法院要跟他調資料他們就該給的就都給為什麼今天到NCC來之後就可以不用給另外你們審照是依據衛星傳播電視法所以你也不要跟我說這跟法律案完全無關"},{"start":473.183,"end":479.625,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。」案。此外,民進黨整天就是要言論自由、言論自由。他從來沒有跟你、從來沒有、但他都沒有做到。我最後跟你講一個東西啦。拜託主席最後齁。"},{"start":500.543,"end":505.134,"text":"我跟你說我從來不覺得我們台灣是制度發生問題"},{"start":506.738,"end":531.033,"text":"我自己這段時間看下來問題都在人啦制度都沒有問題所有的制度設計都非常的好結果到我們台灣來所有的制度都被人在玩弄要嘛你們就鑽肉洞要嘛你們就是去濫用權力我今天看到的就是這樣NCG的存在非常棒這也是言論自由保障的一環但是就是有人"},{"start":531.793,"end":556.106,"text":"人去濫用這個制度濫用這個權限用這個東西去做他的政治攻擊包括我們的監察院也是一堆人濫用監察權去做政治攻擊包括一堆人濫用NCC的權利去做政治攻擊這個就是我看到的制度制度沒問題但是濫用的是人好謝謝各位制度沒問題就不應該修法嘛謝謝感謝吳委員等座委員"},{"start":561.654,"end":579.903,"text":"制度原本設計沒有問題,就是人濫用制度,所以我們今天不得不就組織法去修法,更嚴謹去排除這些濫用權利的這些人。今天制度原本設計非常美好,但是就是有人濫用,濫用之後逼得我們不得不去修改制度。"},{"start":580.623,"end":594.831,"text":"我要告訴你就是這個,其他你不用再發言了。不管有什麼樣的情緒,有人說你既然就是政府官嘛,你維持對本人的適當、基本的尊重,這是應該的。"},{"start":596.452,"end":599.835,"text":"委員傅崐萁等23人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案案案案案案"}]}},{"id":"151979","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151979","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bacceaf25a3364b78900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e63071191971a3c8e0ddb401085ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra Kacaw","委員發言時間":"12:46:57 - 12:55:12","影片長度":"00:08:15","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-11"},"duration":495,"end_time":"2024-05-01T12:55:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T12:46:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1252,"blocks":[["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：（12時47分）主席、各位委員。有請主計長。"],["主席：請主計長。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：還有國發會的施副主委。"],["主席：施副主委。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：主計長好，辛苦了。"],["朱主計長澤民：不會啦！看到委員很高興。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：今年0403地震，很快的，陳院長4月4日就到花蓮視察災情，而且當天就宣布主計總處已經撥了3億元。請問一下主計長，到現在為止，地震已經快滿一個月，主計總處除了這3億元之外，還有沒有撥其他經費？"],["朱主計長澤民：那3億元在當天4月3日下午5點鐘以前，我們就和財政部一起努力，把款項撥到臺灣銀行花蓮分行的戶頭，只是他們那天不用上班，隔天又放假，事實上我們當天就撥下去了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對，本席知道。"],["朱主計長澤民：至於以後要撥多少，就要看他們的需求是多少，已經用了多少。而且花蓮縣政府也有所謂的災害準備金，大概是4億元，然後再加上這3億元。他們需要的，只要有報上來，經過審核以後，我們就會繼續補，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。所以現在只撥3億元？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：我們看25年前，民國88年9月21日的九二一震災，主計總處，當時叫主計處，那時候是韋主計長，是你的前輩，當時在第二天，9月22日，一開始是先撥4億元，後來一看到災情嚴重，所以又再增加，包括臺東縣政府、南投縣政府都有收到，一直到第二天，總共撥款53億元。","從25年前的物價指數等各方面來看，53億元是非常多的，和現在的53億元差很多，本席建議這個部分主計總處應該主動協助。請教主計長，因為副院長開了幾次會議，花蓮縣政府也開過很多次會議，現在到底準備多少錢？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們大概是匡列兩百多億元。那兩百多億元，也許我們明天就可能成立一個方案，由國發會提案報告。因為那是一個方案，主要是以緩濟急，我們可以馬上付諸行動，只要有需求，我們就會付諸行動，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。施副主委，剛才主計長有提到國發會，你們很有默契，馬上就請你回答。"],["施副主任委員克和：委員好。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：怎麼樣？要不要接續剛才主計長的答復？"],["施副主任委員克和：向委員報告，國發會在花東基金的部分，目前的規劃就是以20億元的規模，向信保……"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：20億元？"],["施副主任委員克和：因為信保基金可以承作，另外才是紓困。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：你是說還有另外的款項？"],["施副主任委員克和：對。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：本席說的是總額。"],["施副主任委員克和：關於總額的部分，因為這不是我分管的業務，是不是會後馬上請同仁準備？"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好的。主計長，現在花蓮縣政府的公務人員都非常忙，為什麼當初九二一震災的時候會主動撥款？就是因為地方政府很忙。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我知道。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：關於這個部分，本席舉一個例子，莫拉克風災災後重建特別條例是在民國98年制定，莫拉克颱風造成八八風災，那時候一樣是當天就撥了很多錢，本席就不再敘述。當時也為了這件事制定特別條例，8月20日行政院會通過，把這個特別條例送到立法院，當時處理的速度非常快，立法院馬上就審查，8月28日就通過施行，前後不到一個月的時間。對於這類事件，我們過去都很有經驗，結果這次的處理速度好像倒退了，這是需要加油的地方。"],["朱主計長澤民：有時候制定特別條例或做預算編列，要有數據資料，因為有數據資料才能夠編列預算。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：本席不接受。那種時候怎麼會有數據？本席剛才說了，八八風災是8月8日發生，8月28日立法院就三讀通過，哪來的數據？沒有數據啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：那個是條例，並不是預算，我們明天要公布的是金額，而且馬上可以做，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：這個特別條例裡面……"],["朱主計長澤民：馬上就做，現在就在做了。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好。當然，你們現在是根據災害防救法第五十七條，可以用第二預備金，可以用災害準備金，還有災害防救法第五十八條，你們也可以依預算法第八十三條，重大災害的時候可以提出特別預算。所以關於這個部分，本席只是建議主計總處的公務員，因為主計長很忙……"],["朱主計長澤民：不會，人民的事情，我會擺在第一位。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：所以要請公務員主動，既然說了是200億元或250億元，因為現在都是媒體報導，請你們趕快付諸實施，好不好？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們現在已經在做了，不需要通過特別條例再做。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：本席知道，現在的法令已經周全，也是因為之前的案例，所以才會修法。"],["朱主計長澤民：所以不必有特別條例，也不必編列特別預算，我們現在就可以做，明天只是通過一個方案，謝謝。"],["主席：已經在做了。有錢比較重要，鄭委員。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：本席的意思是說，以前還要立法，而且要很快的立法，現在不用立法，本席剛才也說過，因為有災害防救法。"],["朱主計長澤民：所以我們可以直接去做。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：預算法第八十三條也有相關規定，所以速度要加快。"],["朱主計長澤民：如果依照預算法第八十三條，就需要特別條例、特別預算。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：不用。"],["朱主計長澤民：要的，這是特別預算。"],["主席：鄭委員，時間到了，後面還有很多委員在等。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：本席知道。既然災害準備金夠，第二預備金也夠，你們就趕快撥，好不好？"],["朱主計長澤民：有需求，我們就會直接撥款。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：當然有需求啊！"],["主席：有啦！主計長聽得懂啦！"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：現在本席就是在這邊苦苦哀求啊！謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢。緊接著請陳玉珍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-11","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王世堅","李坤城","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","顏寬恒","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","黃秀芳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就\n「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質\n薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.51596875,"end":5.785343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.85284375,"end":9.396593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.265968750000003,"end":8.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.83971875,"end":8.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.965968750000002,"end":10.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.98284375,"end":12.14721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.505968750000001,"end":12.88971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.332843750000002,"end":12.99096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.379093750000003,"end":16.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.70346875,"end":17.445968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.01971875,"end":22.829093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.21721875,"end":23.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":23.925968750000003,"end":24.567218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":25.140968750000003,"end":31.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.85721875,"end":36.143468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.869093750000005,"end":39.079718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.024718750000005,"end":42.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.079093750000006,"end":44.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":45.407843750000005,"end":48.158468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":48.344093750000006,"end":51.617843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.43659375,"end":92.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.15159375,"end":92.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.16846875,"end":92.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.50596875000001,"end":93.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.26534375,"end":93.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.72096875000001,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.97409375000001,"end":97.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":99.03659375000001,"end":101.34846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.10784375,"end":103.57596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.11596875000001,"end":108.26721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.97596875,"end":109.93784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.59596875000001,"end":113.65034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.27471875,"end":115.65846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.36721875,"end":117.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.40909375000001,"end":119.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.80971875,"end":121.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.49721875,"end":122.59409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.45471875000001,"end":125.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.76659375000001,"end":127.47096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.09534375,"end":129.29346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.12034375000002,"end":130.40721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.86284375,"end":131.33534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.85846875000001,"end":134.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.08159375,"end":135.75659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":136.93784375,"end":138.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":138.65909375,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.59096875,"end":150.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.29846875,"end":162.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.11096875,"end":166.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":166.33409375000002,"end":167.39721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.83596875,"end":168.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.64159375,"end":172.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.05034375000002,"end":174.43409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":175.24409375000002,"end":177.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.45034375,"end":179.14221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.14221875,"end":179.44596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.44596875000002,"end":180.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.03659375,"end":181.21784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.43721875,"end":210.69846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.69846875000002,"end":210.73221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.73221875000002,"end":210.74909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.74909375000001,"end":210.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.17096875000001,"end":219.43971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.72284375,"end":217.06034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.85721875000002,"end":223.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.57409375,"end":224.53596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.82284375,"end":225.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.10534375,"end":238.27221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.90159375000002,"end":234.27284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.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ext":"然後災害防救法第58條然後你也可以依依算法第83條重大災害的時候就可以提出特別預算所以這個部分我只是建議我們的主計處的公務員因為主計長很忙"},{"start":402.512,"end":421.337,"text":"不會不會不會這個人民的事情我會擺在第一位既然講了兩百億還是兩百五十億現在都媒體報導趕快付諸實施好不好我們現在就在已經在在做了而不是說要通過特別條例在做我知道"},{"start":423.045,"end":443.814,"text":"這個法例已經周全了,因為之前的案例,所以才會有綏修所以不必特別條例才來做,也不必要變特別預算才做我們現在就可以做,那明天只是通過一個方案,謝謝有錢比較重要,政委員我的意思是說,已經比這個,以前是要立法"},{"start":446.034,"end":471.479,"text":"以前要立法然後立法的那麼快而現在是不用立法我剛剛有講了災害防救法有了預算法83條也有了所以還要加快預算法83條要特別條例要特別預算要要要這個是怎麼要特別預算我知道我知道所以既然災害準備金夠"},{"start":472.606,"end":473.806,"text":"謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢 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比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-11"},"duration":452,"end_time":"2024-05-01T12:46:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T12:39:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1197,"blocks":[["楊委員瓊瓔：（12時39分）謝謝主席，本席想邀請主計長。"],["主席：有請主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主計長好。近10年我國的經濟成長率，2021年的時候GDP創紀錄，6.53%，但是人民的貧窮感卻越來越深，在這樣的情況之下，因為物價上漲的衝擊，實質薪資甩不開負成長，除了造成可分配的所得減少之外，本席看了主計總處的三個薪資指標，我們也發現，個人所得的差距以及經常性薪資占比、勞務報酬，在GDP的占比降到歷史新低43.03%，但營業盈餘占比36.53%，它是歷史新高。","2016年的時候，受僱人員報酬占GDP比重是44.09%，營業盈餘占比是35.06%，可見你們的主要獲利分配都偏重企業，導致忽略勞工的失衡狀態。本席又聽到昨天的說法，第一季的平均值薪資是八萬多元，這讓人民都譁然。"],["朱主計長澤民：那是總薪資，包括年終獎金。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你覺得做這樣的宣示好嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，那是外界的說法，我們也有公布經常薪資，只是大家沒有引用而已。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：主計長，大家對數字非常敏感。"],["朱主計長澤民：大家只是挑一個數字來罵……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：如果是美化數字，連年終獎金都包括進來，說每個人的平均薪資八萬多元，這樣每個人都會昏倒啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有！我們也有提到經常薪資，只是有些人專挑那個數字來罵主計總處，不是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不是要罵主計總處，而是告訴你，人民對數字非常敏感，因為人民痛苦啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：對。我尊重委員的意見。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：所以主計長，目前勞工實質薪資的成長追不上產業的成長，失衡越來越嚴重，你認為我們要怎麼應對？"],["朱主計長澤民：就是我剛才說的尊重市場制度，但對弱勢族群應該給予協助，例如薪資的最低工資，給予他各項社會福利補助，這也是我們……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你提供方案給本席，好不好？因為現在落差越來越大，我們要怎麼讓人民好好的生活？請你們去盤點一下。"],["朱主計長澤民：那個是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你們去盤點一下，把方案給本席。"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，那個部分是……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你請回座。請財政部和勞動部。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["主席：請阮次長和許次長。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：阮次長，我們使用數發部的111政府專屬短碼簡訊平台，發送報稅e化方式的簡訊，但目前的樣態，還是告訴人民最好打電話向國稅局確認自己有沒有被詐騙的風險。本來是為了方便，所以有了這個平台，但是我們仍舊叫大家打電話問問是不是詐騙。你們是不是對這個平台沒有信心呢？我們要怎麼加強，讓人民也便利？"],["阮次長清華：這個簡訊平台，確定就是政府的平台，並沒有請大家還要再去求證。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：有啊！你們都會告訴大家，還是打個電話確認是不是真的，還是很多人這樣做。"],["阮次長清華：我想這可能是個案啦！"],["楊委員瓊瓔：什麼個案？很多！"],["阮次長清華：所以基本上……"],["楊委員瓊瓔：本席告訴你這件事，主要是數發部有這個平台，你們也搭上線了，但是要讓民眾能夠真的安心。我們有很多e化措施，這也是必走的路，本席是請你們再去宣導，看看要怎麼認證。"],["阮次長清華：好的，是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：因為大家接到電話簡訊時，會怕那是假的，你們是不是可以用什麼樣的方式認證，讓民眾接到簡訊的時候，知道這是政府發送的？這很重要啊！對不對？"],["阮次長清華：是的。這個部分我們會加強宣導。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：你們除了加強宣導，也要去制定制度，讓民眾可以清楚的辨識，這個簡訊就是政府要告訴我們的內容。"],["阮次長清華：是，了解，謝謝委員提醒。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你們去研討，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：好的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：不要讓人民接到簡訊之後，還要打電話確認真假。"],["阮次長清華：了解，是。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：第一個，辨識度要清楚。第二個，多宣導，好不好？"],["阮次長清華：是，好，謝謝。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：最後一個問題，請問勞動部，4月28日是國際工殤日，聽到下面這個數字讓人很難過，因為我們去年平均1.21天就有一個勞工發生職災，今天是五一勞動節，但這些人都去當神仙了。我們每10個人就有2.7人因為重大職災死亡，但日本是1.5人，英國是0.8人，荷蘭是0.3人。所以本席要請教，關於臺灣職災的發生，請教勞動部職安署要怎麼落實、型塑職安文化？型塑職安文化是非常重要的。"],["許次長傳盛：謝謝楊委員。楊委員非常關心臺灣職災的事情，我們勞動部也是，將心比心，如果自己的家人發生這種事情是很難過的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：對，所以我們要找出方法改善。"],["許次長傳盛：所以我們有設定一個10年的臺灣勞災減半計畫，特別是情況嚴重的行業，像營造業，占了職災的一半以上，所以他們進行高空吊掛時一定要嚴格執行，我們也會嚴格執法。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：好，因為時間快到了，本席要尊重主席。所以勞動部，請你們和相關產業討論，他們的困難點在哪裡？應該受訓的就受訓，該協助的就協助，請你們把這個數字降下來。"],["許次長傳盛：是的。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：我們也希望在勞動節的今天，可以送給勞工一個安全的職場，安全的工作環境，好不好？"],["許次長傳盛：當然，這是我們努力的目標。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：請你們去盤點讓職災下降的精進方案，然後把書面資料給本席，好嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：好的，沒問題，謝謝委員關心。"],["楊委員瓊瓔：謝謝。要不然看到荷蘭才0.3人，我們的人數卻這麼多，本席是很難過的。所以本席希望在勞動節的時候給勞工一個大禮，我們好好的盤點，讓大家可以在安全的環境好好工作，好不好？謝謝。"],["許次長傳盛：是的，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝楊瓊瓔委員的質詢。緊接著請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-11","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王世堅","李坤城","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","顏寬恒","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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減少之外我看了主計總處你三個薪資的這個指標呢我們也發現個人所得的差距以及經常性薪資占比勞務這個報酬的占的這個GDP比重他是降到歷史新低他降到了43.03"},{"start":67.122,"end":93.148,"text":"那你的營業銀額呢?占了36.53他是歷史新高2016年的時候我們受僱人員的報酬占比GDP比重是44.09你的營業銀額占比是35.06可見你的主要分配都器重在企業導致我們忽略了勞工的失衡狀態"},{"start":94.548,"end":122.245,"text":"我又聽到昨天說我們第一季的平均值薪資八萬多人民都非常的嘩然那個是我跟你講那個是總薪資經過了大家說是因為包括年終所以如果這樣子的一個宣示沒有沒有那個是外界的他們講你覺得這樣好嗎我們也有公佈金長薪資只是大家沒有引用而已我們也有公佈金長薪資所以主計長"},{"start":123.266,"end":149.961,"text":"大家對於數字非常的敏感如果這美化數字連年終獎金都把它包括進來說每一個人的平均薪資八萬多每一個人都昏倒了只是有些人要挑那個數字來罵主計總處不是要罵主計總處而是告訴你人民對於數字他非常的敏感因為人民痛苦啊"},{"start":150.512,"end":155.236,"text":"主計長,針對於目前勞工實質薪資的成長,它追不上產業所產生出來的成長,失衡越來越嚴重,那你認為我們要怎麼應對?"},{"start":168.147,"end":189.956,"text":"跟那個委員報告一下就是我剛才所講的我們尊重市場制度但對於弱勢族群的話應該是給予他的薪資像最低工資啦像給予他夠像社會福利的一個補助啦所以也是我們總你把那個方案給本席好不好落差越來越大我們要怎麼樣讓你可以好好生活你們去盤點一下"},{"start":191.517,"end":192.218,"text":"我們速發布的111政府專屬的短碼簡訊平台"},{"start":213.854,"end":216.836,"text":"你認為目前的樣態還是叫我們人民說你最好打電話向國書局確認你有沒有被詐騙的風險"},{"start":232.998,"end":246.534,"text":"那你本來是為了方便有了這個平台但是我們仍舊叫人家說你要打電話問問看他是不是詐騙的那是不是對這個平台沒有信心呢我們要怎麼樣去加強讓人民也便利"},{"start":247.965,"end":258.892,"text":"跟委員報告這個這個平台這個簡訊平台其實就是政府的確定是政府的平台沒有說還要再去求證有啊你們都會叫人家說你還是打個電話確認是不是真的還是有很多人這樣說我想是個案啦有什麼個案很多"},{"start":267.197,"end":291.727,"text":"我主要告訴你這個就是說政府速發部有這個平台你們也搭上去那要讓民眾真正能夠安心我們很多的依化這是必要走的但是我是請你們說本席請你們說你再去宣導你要怎麼樣認證因為大家接到電話簡訊會怕是假的那你是不是你們可以製造怎麼樣的認證讓民眾在這一通簡訊接到的時候正確"},{"start":296.149,"end":296.409,"text":"最後一個 勞動部"},{"start":323.085,"end":345.551,"text":"4月28日是國際工商日聽到這個數字都很難過我們去年每平均1.2億天就有一個勞工的職災因為今天五一勞動節這個當神仙每10個人就有2.7人是因為重大職災而死亡在這樣子的情況之下日本他是1.5人英國0.8"},{"start":348.032,"end":365.959,"text":"荷蘭是0.3所以在這邊本席要請教臺灣的職災發生的這樣的情況我們勞動部要怎麼樣職安屬的一個落實它的形塑職安文化你那個形塑職安文化是非常的重要請教"},{"start":367.611,"end":390.433,"text":"謝謝楊委員,楊委員這個非常關心這個臺灣紫災的事情我們勞動部也是將心比心自己的家人發生這個事情都很難過所以我們要設定一個10年的臺灣勞災減半計畫我們希望特別是嚴重的像這個營造業占的紫災的一半以上那我們的營造業在他的這個高工吊掛一定要嚴格執行"},{"start":391.294,"end":416.116,"text":"因為時間的關係我要尊重主席所以勞動部請你跟相關的產業去討論他們的困難點在哪裡你們該當要唆訊要怎麼樣協助把這個數字降下來我們也希望在勞動節的今天可以送給我們勞工一個安全的職場安全的工作的一個環境跟能力"},{"start":416.997,"end":417.317,"text":"請鄭天才委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"151977","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151977","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bdc1e81be3ac599aa900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e63071191902cda474afd28a485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:31:28 - 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Kacaw","陳玉珍","黃秀芳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就\n「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質\n薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.35159375000000004,"end":2.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.5453437500000002,"end":3.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.62034375,"end":9.059093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.501593750000001,"end":13.868468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.374718750000003,"end":14.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.083468750000002,"end":18.22221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.218468750000003,"end":15.26909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.45846875,"end":28.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.887218750000002,"end":30.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.65909375,"end":37.12221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.64534375,"end":38.775968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.02909375,"end":47.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.837843750000005,"end":51.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.68534375,"end":60.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.18596875,"end":61.70909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.33346875,"end":64.44284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.45971875000001,"end":65.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.36659375,"end":67.10909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.27784375,"end":73.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.69034375000001,"end":74.77034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.78721875000001,"end":126.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.22971875,"end":79.00596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.77346875,"end":82.41471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.48971875000001,"end":89.51909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.83971875,"end":90.36284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.44659375,"end":96.42096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.20909375000001,"end":102.76596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.44159375000001,"end":127.30221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.88846875000002,"end":140.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.43659375000001,"end":132.80346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.20784375,"end":138.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.35909375,"end":146.48909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.56909375,"end":149.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.23534375,"end":162.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.11534375000002,"end":162.60471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.92534375,"end":200.55659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.72034375,"end":181.04909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.60971875,"end":185.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.34346875,"end":187.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":201.31596875000002,"end":203.10471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.25659375,"end":208.28534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":208.87596875000003,"end":226.32471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.46221875,"end":212.55471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.61346875,"end":216.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.72971875000002,"end":236.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.35784375,"end":230.96534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.77034375000002,"end":237.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":237.41159375,"end":242.06909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":242.22096875000003,"end":249.52784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.78096875000003,"end":250.28721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.79346875000002,"end":256.09221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.17221875,"end":290.31471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.26471875000004,"end":262.18409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.57221875,"end":263.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":280.94909375000003,"end":281.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.45096875,"end":284.30721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.95596875,"end":296.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":297.77346875,"end":298.85346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.47784375000003,"end":299.79846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.96721875000003,"end":300.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.84471875,"end":301.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.26221875000005,"end":316.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.58909375,"end":323.42346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.65971875,"end":330.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.37159375000005,"end":340.97346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.54721875,"end":355.35096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.68846875,"end":361.62846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":361.79721875,"end":367.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.21409375,"end":367.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":367.31534375,"end":369.62721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":369.81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那個是一個平均數平均數那很多人就馬上就自首啊 說抱歉啊我們拉低了全台灣的月薪平均啊那個是所以我們每年都會公布一次中位數中位數是多少中位數現在是 是這個"},{"start":147.568,"end":153.369,"text":"所以是不是其實我們偏低我們受僱人員很多的受僱人員其實他的薪資普遍來講還是偏低低到是說他沒有政府宣傳的那麼的好"},{"start":176.315,"end":196.194,"text":"我們沒有宣傳沒有宣傳嗎我們每次聽到民進黨政府都講說哇股市上萬點多久了現在台灣經濟最好的狀況讓大家覺得說好像每個人都賺錢只有我沒賺錢那個是講股市我們的薪資我們是每個月公佈我們也沒有說什麼去說什麼宣傳"},{"start":201.365,"end":224.466,"text":"主計總處只做統計資料給大家參考的我們不做宣傳 謝謝我們不做宣傳可是你們的資料拿出來都會讓大家覺得是說這就有誤導嫌疑啊就會讓大家覺得是說美化數字啊我們沒有美化數字我們把實際的數字公佈出來我要美化數字我前天就不會公佈財富分配 謝謝"},{"start":226.84,"end":254.553,"text":"所以這還公布財富分配還是得證是不是很得意喔我沒有說得證我是覺得要有這一個資料讓大家好做決策謝謝同意啊本席同意啊所以說為什麼這是30年才出來這樣的一個資料這未來有講是說4年做一次是不是我希望這個樣子但是有新的團隊的決策那不應該更滾動檢討嗎你是4年一次是認為是說要幫這個"},{"start":257.473,"end":275.019,"text":"執政的執政黨打分數是不是用這樣的一個數字來去不是幫執政黨打分數那是你一次啊我們就統計指示說把適當的允當的資料顯示出來我們主計你也知道具有獨立性把它做一個數字公佈沒錯啊"},{"start":275.359,"end":298.474,"text":"我就是認為說主計有獨立性主計應該專業主計應該客觀主計應該不分任何黨派容其如實的公佈數字我們的統計人員他也沒有任何政黨傾向只有全部主計總處一萬多個人裡面只有兩個是政務官其他都不是謝謝所以主計長"},{"start":299.537,"end":315.697,"text":"你剛有講那未來如果說這樣的一個數字你說4年可以公佈是不是希望希望因為那個有幾年公佈由新的團隊來決定我希望說4年公佈一次好那最後本市也要問就是說"},{"start":316.718,"end":329.969,"text":"其實去年立法院有進行類似的專案報告也是一樣在去年的10月底也有說受僱人員報酬占GDP比例創新低貧富差距10年新高"},{"start":331.411,"end":354.777,"text":"那當時也有提到說很多人認為是說應該要做加薪減稅但這個政策經濟部2016年就已經提出來了但這10年過去了還是沒有做一個改善那個我覺得我跟委員報告一下政策是由各部會來做所以這個是要加薪要減稅應該是相關部會來表示意見比較恰當"},{"start":356.417,"end":372.622,"text":"主計長本期最後只想要請教就你這邊要離開之前你來客觀公允以主計長的身份最後要離開講一下到底我們現在臺灣面臨受僱人員薪資占GDP的比例"},{"start":373.658,"end":388.539,"text":"持續的往下低啊對那個你又講是說財富重分配是要很謹慎考慮啊那這樣解方是什麼對那個我跟各位講一下我們尊重原則上我們要尊重市場制度沒有解方"},{"start":389.419,"end":394.322,"text":"對弱勢的族群要給予一個政策上的照顧尊重市場制度是效率但是對弱勢的要照顧這個是公平這兩個之間要有取守這個就是政府的態度"},{"start":412.927,"end":421.504,"text":"洪委員講了等於沒講啊沒有過去重點是態度是這樣子但是過去就是沒有執行到位啊所以才會造成這個狀況"},{"start":425.715,"end":450.442,"text":"謝謝我們朝委已經站起來說勞動節但是因為這個是公務人員不受勞保的保障但是我們不要為難我們的同仁同意啦我不要為難所有同仁所以還是一樣祝大家勞動節快樂但是真的主計長我們未來一樣還是台灣人民秉持著良心好好的發出你的能夠建言的建言謝謝謝謝洪孟楷委員的質詢緊接著我們請楊瓊英委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"151976","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151976","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b3c0397ce5312a33b900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e630711919064411f9f51987335ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"顏寬恒","委員發言時間":"12:19:58 - 12:31:13","影片長度":"00:11:15","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-11"},"duration":675,"end_time":"2024-05-01T12:31:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T12:19:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1095,"blocks":[["顏委員寬恒：（12時19分）主席、各位列席委員、各位官員，大家好。主席，我想請財政部阮政次。"],["主席：阮次，請。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：次長好。今天是勞動節，本席在這裡先向所有的勞工致敬，包括立法院所有的助理、秘書。我想請教次長，今天5月1日開始進入報稅季，財政部在4月25日已經開始寄發稅額試算通知，那112年度有四大新的規定，包括民法成年年齡下修到18歲、每人基本生活費調高至20.2萬、CFC制度首度申報及舊制房屋售屋所得等等，能不能請次長簡單說明一下？"],["阮次長清華：我們今年的綜合所得稅結算申報大概有一些調整，主要有四項，剛才委員也都列出來了。"],["顏委員寬恒：對，簡單說明就好。"],["阮次長清華：我們根據民法規定，成年的年齡下修到18歲，所以除非他是無謀生能力，或者是身心障礙或是就學，要不然的話，他要獨立申報，這是第一個。第二個，引進CFC，也就是國外受控的企業，它有一定的門檻規定，如果符合規定，不管它有沒有決議分配，它就是要申報進來，要申報納稅。第三個就是基本生活費由19.6萬提高到20.2萬。第四個就是伙食費由2,400元提高到3,000元。當然還有其他細的啦！因為時間的關係，我就略去了。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。次長，今年綜所稅申報件數會比去年增加，有機會到670萬件，營所稅以年增3%來估計，可能會落在109萬件，我想請教次長，可不可以在這邊告訴大家，今年營所稅會成長多少？金額多少？"],["阮次長清華：跟委員報告，目前還在……"],["顏委員寬恒：手上有資料嗎？"],["阮次長清華：今天才開始申報，所以我們可能到……"],["顏委員寬恒：預估呢？會不會達到670萬件？"],["阮次長清華：基本上，我現在初步地跟委員報告，像去年我們上市櫃的獲利是減少百分之二十七點多，另外去年的經濟成長率是降到1.31%，所以我們預估營所稅應該會略微往下修。","至於綜合所得稅那部分也是一樣，因為上市櫃公司的營運比較差，所以分配到的股利也相對比較少，但是它薪資其實是往上拉的，所以基本上我們預估大概也是略微……"],["顏委員寬恒：綜所稅會成長，營所稅會下修。"],["阮次長清華：我們還是比較保守一點。"],["顏委員寬恒：其實稅收是政府的最大財源，超過八成全部都是稅收，2021年的實際總決算數超過2.38兆，稅收的部分就有2.003兆元，是最大的項目，占國家總收入84%。政府在111年稅收超徵，然後最後一個人發6,000元，連續3年的超徵總額超過1.28兆元，3年超過1.28兆元，這是什麼狀況？你可不可以告訴我，為什麼會超收那麼多？"],["阮次長清華：我們在預算編列的時候會考慮到很多因素，比如像經濟成長率、國內外的經濟情勢、實徵的情形、各稅目的特性，或者是有一些修法的成果。最主要就是預算編了以後，到執行會有一段落差，大概有一年多的落差，所以在這個期間會有一些變化。"],["顏委員寬恒：超徵是因為經濟大幅度地成長，或者是我們的稅制本身有問題？"],["阮次長清華：不是稅制的問題，是因為估算的問題。我覺得各國都有面臨同樣的問題，因為從編列到執行的階段會有很大的變化，所以那時候的實徵數超過預算數會比較多，但是我們現在已經……"],["顏委員寬恒：就是說一開始就低估了，所以變成超徵，那這個是行政疏失，是不是？"],["阮次長清華：不是。"],["顏委員寬恒：不是？"],["阮次長清華：其實我們都是依法課稅啦！有時候很多東西真的很難去預估，但是我跟委員報告，我們現在已經成立了估測的專案小組，也希望建立一個稅收估算的模型，希望能夠越來越準，但是我一直在想，絕對不會有人民吃緊或者政府緊吃這種狀況，不會發生這種情況。"],["顏委員寬恒：這是現況，已經產生的現況，剛剛很多委員也提到，現在的貧富差距是66.9倍，嚇死人啊！現在政府超收，我們也知道連續3年超徵那麼多，1.28兆元，這對於我們現在最關心的勞工朋友，對於這些比較貧困、比較低收的國人來說，真的是人民吃緊啊！賺不到錢，對不對？那政府超徵，然後財團收入，所有的資源都掌握在前面20%的人手上。"],["阮次長清華：不至於發生這種事啦！為什麼呢？因為實徵數超過預算數的部分，這些東西如果跟特別預算加起來的話，基本上還是赤字。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝次長，次長請回。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝。"],["顏委員寬恒：接著請勞動部許次長。"],["主席：有請許次長。"],["許次長傳盛：顏委員好。"],["顏委員寬恒：許次長，我國GDP的分配結構是由受僱人員報酬、營業盈餘、固定資本消耗、生產及進口稅等4項組成，受僱人員報酬就是多數民眾的勞務收入、勞務成果，營業盈餘就是企業放在口袋的錢，從過去10年以來的趨勢，可以看到受僱人員報酬占GDP比重持續下降，在2022年低到只剩下43.9%，營業盈餘占GDP的34.4%。","臺灣企業越來越有錢，但是勞工越來越窮，低薪窮忙，貧富差距擴大。我們蔡總統說過，勞工是他心中最軟的一塊，但是心中最軟的一塊在做最硬的工作啦！在做最硬的工作，勞工的付出跟回報實際上不成正比。現在大家都是血汗勞工、廉價勞工，在臺灣變成是最低薪資做最多事情，然後還要負最多責任，每個月可能還會被扣一些莫名其妙的錢，所以臺灣勞工普遍的工作環境的現況就是這樣，針對高工時低薪水這種狀況要如何改善？"],["許次長傳盛：謝謝顏委員。我想跟顏委員報告，蔡總統8年任內有不斷地提高基本工資，包括月薪跟時薪都大幅度地提高，我們勞動部也有推出很多的方案，讓我們的員工、特別是青年員工可以透過勞動部的加值計畫，包括他要去進修、他要取得各種證照，提升他個人相關的勞動條件之後，可以換取更高的薪資。","我們也有鼓勵更多的中壯年世代，透過補貼方案讓他可以重新進入職場，相關的鼓勵措施我們部裡面都會一項一項推出來，讓更多的臺灣勞工能夠提升他的薪資水平，包括我們也有跟各種企業的工會，增加它協商、協調的能力，能夠去跟雇主協議，把經濟成長的果實跟大家分享，我想這是我們不斷努力的目標。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。次長，臺灣是一個過勞之島，這個不是空穴來風。根據勞動部的統計，2022年臺灣受僱者平均每年工時是2,008小時，在主要國家排名第6，鄰近的日本是1,626小時，韓國是1,904小時，臺灣都比他們高出許多。那實質經常性薪資又降低了0.05%，連續3年都是負數，實質總薪資也減少了1.04%，甚至是7年以來首次負成長。我請教次長，調整基本工資，有調跟沒調一樣啊！工時那麼多，然後薪資那麼低，調整基本薪資是不是因應物價上漲？這樣會不會陷入薪資價格螺旋上漲的狀況？這是一個不好的現象，是不是會這樣？"],["許次長傳盛：臺灣勞工的工作薪資，目前一週大概是四十一點多小時，其實和國際的標準相差不大。至於基本工資，現在變成最低工資，我們今年會召集委員會討論，把相關因素都納進來，包括剛才委員說的物價調整指數，或者其他相關因素都會納入，希望給勞工一個最基本的生活保障，這是勞動部的責任。"],["顏委員寬恒：次長，明明薪資持續增加，但是實質薪資反倒衰退，我們不應該和人民玩這種數字遊戲。"],["許次長傳盛：這個部分我們會努力。"],["顏委員寬恒：國民最關心的就是薪資，一定要增加民眾的收入，讓他們的生活得以受到保障，才不會影響到整體社會的穩定和發展。所以在通膨和薪資水平方面，我們面臨的挑戰非常大，我們一起努力想辦法啦！以上。"],["許次長傳盛：好，謝謝委員指教，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝顏寬恒委員的質詢。緊接著請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-11","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王世堅","李坤城","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","顏寬恒","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","黃秀芳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就\n「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質\n薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":2.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.11909375,"end":5.0934687499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.4478437500000005,"end":6.021593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.59534375,"end":7.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.574093750000001,"end":8.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.974718750000001,"end":9.750968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.762843750000002,"end":14.880968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.880968750000001,"end":15.488468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.775343750000001,"end":16.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.294093750000002,"end":20.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":20.46659375,"end":27.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":28.17846875,"end":40.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.57846875,"end":33.76409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":40.868468750000005,"end":42.353468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":43.04534375,"end":56.359718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":56.494718750000004,"end":60.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.236593750000004,"end":65.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.06284375,"end":121.73346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.81284375,"end":74.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.87159375,"end":75.15846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.00846875,"end":117.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":120.65346875,"end":120.92346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":121.37909375000001,"end":122.35784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":122.77971875,"end":123.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.19721875,"end":128.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.70284375,"end":131.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":131.43659375000001,"end":137.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.61284375,"end":142.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.77659375000002,"end":149.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":143.63721875000002,"end":144.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.40034375000002,"end":148.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":149.27346875,"end":150.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.53909375,"end":189.90846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.33471875,"end":191.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.54971875,"end":195.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.31721875000002,"end":193.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.62909375,"end":211.13721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.66034375,"end":215.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.33471875,"end":224.65409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":224.87346875,"end":228.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":228.34971875000002,"end":229.53096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.15534375000001,"end":231.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.19721875000002,"end":233.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.81721875000002,"end":235.62284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.04471875000002,"end":252.83534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.93659375000001,"end":263.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.53846875,"end":268.15784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.41096875,"end":285.65721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":284.37471875,"end":290.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.02784375000005,"end":316.74096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.06159375000004,"end":290.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":316.84221875000003,"end":321.36471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":318.19221875,"end":318.36096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.58409375,"end":325.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.46534375000005,"end":326.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.75221875,"end":325.81971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":327.01784375,"end":327.69284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.04721875,"end":328.65471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.99221875,"end":332.62034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":332.78909375,"end":334.25721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.57784375,"end":335.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":335.16846875000005,"end":338.57721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.06659375000004,"end":340.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":341.27721875000003,"end":342.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":342.49221875,"end":343.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":344.02784375000005,"end":345.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":345.85034375000004,"end":349.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.46159375,"end":358.65846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.43596875000003,"end":351.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.65846875,"end":365.86409375000005},{"speaker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就是說絕對不會有說人民吃緊或者政府緊吃這種狀況不會發生這種情況"},{"start":317.114,"end":340.087,"text":"這是現況這是現況已經產生了現況現在剛剛我們很多委員提到現在的貧富差距66.9倍嚇死人了所以現在政府超收我們也知道連續三年超徵那麼多1.28兆元那對於我們現在最關心的我們的勞工朋友我們所有的這些我們比較"},{"start":341.34,"end":347.026,"text":"跟委員報告不至於發生這種事因為為什麼呢?因為我們這些就是說時增數超過預算數的"},{"start":366.26,"end":374.185,"text":"那這些東西呢,基本上如果跟特別預算加起來的話,基本上還是赤字啦。謝謝次長,次長請回。接著請我們勞動部勞動部我們的許次長"},{"start":388.273,"end":404.231,"text":"許市長我國GDP的分配結構是由受僱人員報酬、營業營餘還有固定薪資消耗、生產及進口稅等四項組成受僱人員報酬就是多數民眾的勞務收入"},{"start":405.692,"end":427.93,"text":"那勞務成果那營業營餘就是企業放在口袋的錢從過去十年以來的趨勢可以看到受僱人員報酬占GDP比重持續下降那在2022年低到只剩下43.9%那企業營餘占GDP的34.4%那臺灣企業越來越有錢但是勞工越來越窮"},{"start":436.237,"end":455.398,"text":"低薪、窮忙、貧困差距擴大我們蔡總統說過說勞工是他心中最軟的一塊但是心中最軟的一塊在做最硬的工作勞工的付出跟回報實際上就不成正比"},{"start":456.601,"end":479.241,"text":"那現在大家都是血汗勞工、廉價勞工臺灣就變成是最低薪資做最多事情然後還要負最多責任每個月可能還會被扣一些莫名其妙的錢所以臺灣勞工普遍的工作環境的現況就是這樣那高工時低薪水這種狀況要如何改變如何改善"},{"start":480.762,"end":503.194,"text":"謝謝顏委員我想跟委員報告蔡總統8年之內有不斷的提高基本工資包括月薪跟時薪我們都大幅度的提高那我們勞動部也有推出很多的方案讓我們的員工特別是青年員工可以透過勞工部的加值計畫包括說他是進修他取得各種的證照提升他個人的這個他相關的勞動的條件之後"},{"start":507.076,"end":508.216,"text":"臺灣勞工提升薪資水平"},{"start":528.322,"end":529.042,"text":"臺灣是一個過勞之島根據勞動部的統計2022年臺灣受僱者平均每年工時"},{"start":556.218,"end":556.838,"text":"韓國1904台灣都比他們高"},{"start":586.559,"end":590.003,"text":"副成長請教次長調整基本薪資"},{"start":591.383,"end":619,"text":"有條跟沒條一樣啊工時那麼多然後薪資那麼低那調整基本薪資是不是因應這個物價上漲那這個會不會陷入一個所謂的薪資價格螺旋上漲這是一個很不好的現象是不是這樣子我跟業務委員報告我們臺灣勞工的工作薪資目前一週大概41點多小時這跟國際的標準其實相差不大"},{"start":619.7,"end":638.729,"text":"至於所謂的基本工資現在變成最低工資那我們今年會召集委員會來討論把相關的因素都納進來包括剛剛委員講的物價調整指數或是其他相關的因素都會進來希望給勞工一個最基本的生活保障這我想是勞動部的責任"},{"start":640.271,"end":664.313,"text":"市長,民用薪資持續增加但是實質反倒是衰退啦都是衰退的所以我們不應該跟人民玩這種數字遊戲我們最關心的就是薪資一定要增加民眾的收入讓他們生活得以受到一個保障那才不會影響到整體社會的穩定跟發展所以"},{"start":665.735,"end":671.725,"text":"在通膨跟薪資水平之間我們面臨的挑戰非常的大好不好我們一起努力啦好 謝謝好 以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151975","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151975","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b5e160a73380dd83b900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e63071191952fbb683eb77f5d55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"12:08:09 - 12:19:45","影片長度":"00:11:36","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-11"},"duration":696,"end_time":"2024-05-01T12:19:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T12:08:09+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1002,"blocks":[["羅委員明才：（12時7分）主席、各位委員、各位列席官員，大家好。主席，可不可以請主計長？"],["主席：朱主計長請。"],["羅委員明才：主計長你好。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["羅委員明才：現在是5月1號，五一五一勞工穿新衣，可是今天的勞工朋友還有年輕人很辛苦啊！在今天買新衣服穿的不多，因為阮囊羞澀，因為手邊沒閒錢，主計長你應該是最後，要有始有終，在這艘船上你要繼續努力啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：我已經不會在政府單位這一艘船上，我是在中華民國這個島上。"],["羅委員明才：對，在這艘你我共同的船上，每個人都要繼續努力，雖然主計長已經快要畢業了，人之將至，其言也善。"],["朱主計長澤民：那個是送到殯儀館的啦！你不要用這種話啦！"],["羅委員明才：沒有啦！我是說這個位置即將到一個劃句點的時刻，你應該多講一點正面的、講一些良心話。"],["朱主計長澤民：我都是講正面的話。"],["羅委員明才：本席一直關心年輕人低薪的問題，請問主計長，現在年輕人薪水有沒有高於三萬五的？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們的經常性薪資平均大概是四萬多塊，您剛才講的三萬五，剛畢業的人平均沒有那麼多。"],["羅委員明才：好，主計長，中華民國很有錢。"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["羅委員明才：我們應該多多照顧年輕人，低於平均線三萬五以下的，是不是可以來申請領一點補助？"],["朱主計長澤民：符合低收入戶的話是可以的，要符合一定的條件，而且我們也有很多措施，像租金補貼啦！學貸啦！我們最近都有很多的措施，讓年輕人避免學貸的壓力以及房屋租金的壓力。"],["羅委員明才：主計長，那個是緩不濟急啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：有啦！那個是每個月都發的，不可能緩不濟急。"],["羅委員明才：而且對很多的青年人、年輕人沒有實際的幫助。我請教一個數字，外勞在臺灣一般可以領多少錢？"],["朱主計長澤民：就是按照所謂的最低工資，都有。"],["羅委員明才：多少？"],["朱主計長澤民：如果按照規定，他有額外加班的話，雇主還要另外給錢，這個由勞動部來答會比我更恰當。"],["羅委員明才：勞動部是哪一位？"],["主席：有請許次長。"],["羅委員明才：主計長，也請你留步。"],["朱主計長澤民：還要哦？"],["羅委員明才：因為你是老臣伏驥，事實上你可以指導幫助很多年輕人，我繼續討論，你就可以講兩句話了。","請問許次長，外勞的最低薪資，一般在臺灣大概可以領多少？"],["許次長傳盛：謝謝羅委員。外勞有好多種，如果是所謂的廠工、製造業，依照目前規定的基本工資……"],["羅委員明才：好，直接回答，廠工是多少？"],["許次長傳盛：廠工至少要在基本工資以上。"],["羅委員明才：多少？"],["許次長傳盛：目前基本工資以上的話，是2萬7,470元以上。"],["羅委員明才：兩萬七千多。請問長照的這些外勞一個月領多少？"],["許次長傳盛：長照的部分，目前是……"],["羅委員明才：直接答。"],["許次長傳盛：2萬左右。"],["羅委員明才：多少？"],["許次長傳盛：2萬左右。"],["羅委員明才：長照2萬可以請得到？"],["許次長傳盛：不，長照也有分兩種，一個是在機構工作，那也要基本工資，如果是在家庭幫傭看護的，那個部分是2萬出頭一點。"],["羅委員明才：好，家裡的話是兩萬多，多多少？"],["許次長傳盛：大概兩萬一、兩萬二，兩萬二。"],["羅委員明才：好，兩萬二。長照的部分，外勞是領多少？"],["許次長傳盛：以機構嗎？或者是……"],["羅委員明才：機構。"],["許次長傳盛：機構當然一定要基本工資以上，2萬7,470元以上。"],["羅委員明才：次長，你吃米不知道米價啊！不要說那些有的沒的，你去醫院問問看，你要請一個臨時的長照，沒有6萬、沒有8萬你請得到人嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：那是本國的啦！"],["羅委員明才：本國的，好，那你請外勞不用5萬嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：沒有，外勞當然他還有加班費。"],["羅委員明才：內行人說內行話，不要粉飾太平，講那一些大家聽不懂的話。你如果說兩萬多可以請到長照，那明天我找一票人去登記，請你把人提供出來給大家。"],["許次長傳盛：我跟羅委員報告，本國跟外勞他在薪資上面是有落差。"],["羅委員明才：你承不承認本席剛剛講的是比較貼近市場面？對吧！接著要回過來換主計長，事實上，連外勞可能每一個月都是領四萬五，領5萬、6萬以上。"],["朱主計長澤民：您講的那個可能是外配，不是外勞，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：外勞啦！在醫院裡面幫忙看護的。"],["朱主計長澤民：外配啦！他是外配啦！"],["羅委員明才：幫忙24小時在醫院照顧健康的。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，那有很多都是外配，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：好，不管啦！我講這個……"],["朱主計長澤民：外配他已經有中華民國國籍，所以他已經適用中華民國法律，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：重點是要提醒主計長，連外勞都領5萬了，你為什麼讓中華民國的年輕人、青年人只有領三萬五，有的還領不到？"],["朱主計長澤民：我剛才講，那些所謂的外配，他已經是具有中華民國國籍，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：所以本席在這裡一直奉勸你，你就最後一段路了，你就講講實際的心裡話，拜託你幫幫年輕人嘛！如果年輕朋友領不到三萬五的，國家補助嘛！國家支持啊！國家要挺身而出照顧他們啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，如果說……"],["羅委員明才：主計長，能不能幫幫這些年輕人？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，也許委員對於……"],["羅委員明才：現在的年輕人，我覺得將心比心，如果我是這些年輕人，我每天起來就是4個字，「失望」跟「絕望」，因為我再幹下去沒有什麼好做，只好做Uber啊！主計長，做Uber跑單一個月可以領多少錢？"],["朱主計長澤民：現在大概會有3、4萬以上，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：吃米不知道米價，認真一點跑單至少也有7萬，有的拚到底的，晚上也拚白天也拚，差不多有十幾萬，沒辦法嘛！他為了生活，還不是為了理想，因為沒有理想啊！只是在這種困難的環境中自我安慰，然後努力生存，希望可以掙得比外勞多一點點的薪水，看護的起碼都有6萬、7萬啊！所以年輕人是沒有希望的。我希望所有的相關單位、政府機關，平心而論，現在的貧富懸殊已經擴大到歷史新高，主計長，貧富懸殊最高數跟最低數差多少？"],["朱主計長澤民：我剛才有講，以最高最低去比並不是很恰當。"],["羅委員明才：67倍。"],["朱主計長澤民：那個並不是很恰當，因為最高的裡面有很高的負債。"],["羅委員明才：67倍的意思就是與主計長沒關，因為你不是最底層的那六十七分之一，年輕人比較辛苦、弱勢的，只能寄望寄生上游，不斷地往上攀爬，問題是沒有人像你那麼好啊！你是在公務機關，你退休還有退休金啊！你退休了，國家會養你啊！這些年輕人手無寸鐵，人為刀俎、我為魚肉，所以本席建議今年度的預算優先照顧年輕人，今年所有的預算大力、大幅度來照顧年輕人，特別是有小孩的年輕人，單親家庭也要照顧。"],["朱主計長澤民：我們最近的預算就是像委員所說的那樣，青年有學貸，有房租補貼，而且有小孩的每個人5,000元，我們就是像委員所講的，已經有在照顧，那個都是過去8年以前沒有的，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：主計長，難道你要我在這邊好好地感謝你謝主隆恩嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有啦！這是我們應該做的，因為那是納稅人的錢，是我們應該做的。"],["羅委員明才：如果你做得好，年輕人就不會怨嘆了！你做得好，年輕人就不會痛哭流淚啊！你做得好，大家拿香來跟你拜啊！問題是你做好了嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，我又沒有去殯儀館，不必拿香跟我拜，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：年輕人的薪資，以目前的情況，起碼你要5萬起跳啊！主計長，以現在的經濟水平，現在政府的照顧，什麼時候能讓臺灣的年輕人可以稍微緩緩，至少一個月領5萬元以上？什麼時候做得到？"],["朱主計長澤民：未來的人會做得到，謝謝。"],["羅委員明才：好啦！做不到請下臺。其實國家有很多的政策工具，貧富懸殊那麼大……"],["朱主計長澤民：我很快就下臺了，我再兩個多禮拜就下臺了。"],["羅委員明才：所以你做不到要下臺啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我下臺。"],["羅委員明才：政府有那麼多的單位，那麼多的錢，該用不用！上上禮拜，我報一條消息讓你們聞香，保險法第一百四十六條之四修正以後，從國外引進來的資金有六兆多，你也可以要求這六兆多優先以怎麼樣的方式來照顧年輕人啊！你們碰到財團、碰到大企業家，統統轉彎！"],["朱主計長澤民：那個六兆多不能發給大家，那個是人家的錢。"],["羅委員明才：六兆多回來，你為什麼不主張歡迎你們回來，以10%的概念，全部優先照顧年輕人？"],["朱主計長澤民：歡迎回來要產生價值，那個不是中華民國的錢，不是政府的錢，所以不能發給民眾。"],["羅委員明才：這個是你可以提的啊！錢回來……"],["朱主計長澤民：那個不是政府的錢，不能夠發給民眾。"],["羅委員明才：你可以遺贈稅增加20%、50%，全部照顧年輕人啊！你們都不做啊！該做不做，所以主計長，不做的結果，最後就是要下臺一鞠躬，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝羅召委的質詢。","緊接著我們請顏寬恒委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-11","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王世堅","李坤城","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","顏寬恒","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質\n薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.3134687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.56659375,"end":3.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.2034687500000003,"end":4.148468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.6715937499999995,"end":5.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.9372187499999995,"end":7.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.40096875,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.852218750000002,"end":11.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.640968750000003,"end":12.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.383468750000002,"end":14.20596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.99909375,"end":15.640343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.39971875,"end":18.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.37409375,"end":19.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.28096875,"end":21.37784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.96846875,"end":25.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.00221875,"end":22.559093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.879093750000003,"end":30.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.16596875,"end":27.520343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":30.254093750000003,"end":34.034093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.034093750000004,"end":39.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.46784375,"end":43.14659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.53471875,"end":44.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.407843750000005,"end":45.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.48784375,"end":47.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.158468750000004,"end":55.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.752218750000004,"end":57.25409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.19909375,"end":59.447843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.055343750000006,"end":61.30409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.540343750000005,"end":62.400968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.87346875,"end":64.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.51034375,"end":66.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":64.57784375,"end":66.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.38346875,"end":66.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.10909375,"end":67.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.17221875,"end":69.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.27721875,"end":72.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.38659375,"end":74.44971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.92221875,"end":77.30159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.30159375000001,"end":77.33534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.82471875,"end":77.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.97659375,"end":97.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.80159375000001,"end":91.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.02846875,"end":99.67784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.15034375,"end":100.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.04471875,"end":105.70221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.17471875000001,"end":112.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.82346875,"end":114.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.96659375,"end":143.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.41784375,"end":143.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.26159375,"end":145.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.03784375,"end":145.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.72971875000002,"end":146.89409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":146.20221875000001,"end":148.17659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.65346875,"end":150.64034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.04534375,"end":160.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":160.96784375000001,"end":178.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.02846875,"end":178.36596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.90596875,"end":178.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.93971875,"end":180.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.11659375000002,"end":181.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.26409375,"end":184.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.93034375000002,"end":186.55034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.90471875,"end":188.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.99721875,"end":191.15721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":191.56221875,"end":193.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.97534375,"end":197.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.58659375000002,"end":198.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.52721875,"end":200.97846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.38346875000002,"end":205.07909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.07909375000003,"end":205.11284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.12534375,"end":219.94596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.51221875000002,"end":215.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.94659375,"end":216.28409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有的還領不到所以本席在這裡就一直奉勸你你就最後一段路了嘛你就講講實際的心裡話"},{"start":365.825,"end":392.919,"text":"拜託你幫幫年輕人嘛如果年輕朋友領不到3萬5的國家補助嘛國家支持啊國家要挺身而出照顧他們啊主計長能不能幫幫這些年輕人啊對也許委員現在年輕人我覺得將心比心啊如果我是這些年輕人喔我每天起來的話就是四個字"},{"start":394.565,"end":421.061,"text":"希望跟絕望因為我再幹下去啊沒有什麼好做只好做Uber啊主計長做Uber跑單一個月可以領多少錢現在大概會有3、4萬以上謝謝吃米不知道米多少青菜比較認真、早餐最少也7萬有的拼到底齁我不是也拼,你也是也拼差不多要10幾萬啦"},{"start":422.847,"end":452.231,"text":"所以這造成說沒辦法啦為了生活不是為了理想啊因為沒有理想啊只是在這種困難的環境中自我安慰然後努力生存希望可以掙得比外勞多一點點的薪水看護的起碼都六萬七萬啊所以年輕人是沒有希望的啊所以我希望"},{"start":454.039,"end":468.352,"text":"我們所有的相關單位政府機關平心而論現在的貧富懸殊啊已經擴大到歷史新高主計長貧富懸殊最高數跟最低數差多少"},{"start":469.504,"end":496.766,"text":"那個我剛才講說那個最高最低級比沒有恰67倍那個並不很恰當因為67倍的意思就是主計長跟你沒關係因為你不是最底層的那67分之一每個人每個年輕人比較辛苦弱勢的只能寄望寄生上游不斷的往上攀爬"},{"start":498.497,"end":522.943,"text":"問題沒有人像你那麼好啊你有公務機關啊你退休還有退休金啊你退薪還有退休人國家會養你啊這年輕人手無寸鐵啊人為刀齒我為魚肉所以本席建議啊今年度的預算優先照顧年輕人今年的所有的預算"},{"start":524.127,"end":538.136,"text":"大力大幅度來照顧年輕人特別有小孩的年輕人我們最近的預算就是像委員所做的那個樣子我們的那個是怎麼樣"},{"start":539.817,"end":554.687,"text":"就是說青年有隨隨代而且有房租補貼而且有小孩的每一個人五千塊我們就是像委員所講的已經在照顧那個東西那個都是以前過去八年以前沒有的謝謝"},{"start":556.168,"end":577.998,"text":"難道你要我在這邊好好的感謝你謝主榮恩嗎?如果你做得好,年輕人就不會完蛋了啦你做得好啊,年輕人就不會痛哭流淚啊你做得好啊,大家就拿槍來跟你敗啊"},{"start":579.455,"end":603.725,"text":"問題你做好了嗎?年輕人的薪資在目前的情況起碼你要五萬起跳啊主計長以現在的經濟水平現在政府的照顧什麼時候能讓年輕人臺灣的年輕人可以稍微緩緩至少一個月領五萬塊以上什麼時候做得到?那個未來的人會做得到"},{"start":609.895,"end":632.3,"text":"做不到請下台其實國家有很多的政策工具啊我下台很快輸出那麼大所以你做不到要下台啊對啊我下台啊政府有那麼多的單位那麼多的錢該用不用我上上禮拜"},{"start":633.342,"end":653.34,"text":"報一條給你批判的你保險法146條知識修正以後從國外引進來的資金有6兆多你也可以要求這6兆多優先怎麼樣的方式來照顧年輕人啊你們碰到財團"},{"start":654.983,"end":683.681,"text":"碰到大企業家通通轉彎六兆多回來你為什麼不主張歡迎你們回來百分之十的概念全部優先照顧年輕人這個你可以提的啊錢回來你可以移增稅增加百分之二十、百分之五十全部照顧年輕人啊你們都不做啊"},{"start":685.624,"end":693.297,"text":"該做不做所以主計長不做的結果最後就是要下台一鞠躬謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151974","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151974","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b32f7fa4b9384314e1e4149ad024bf7a87f5010e6307119194cbb1eeebf50ae7b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"12:08:51 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12:16:45","影片長度":"00:07:54","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員傅崐萁等41人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1"},"duration":474,"end_time":"2024-05-01T12:16:45+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T12:08:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":959,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（12時8分）謝謝主席，主席，你叫我去那邊備詢台，我嚇一跳，我想我並沒有要入閣，還是我太久沒在委員會質詢，是不是制度已經改到我不太會質詢了？","請陳主委。"],["主席：麻煩陳主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委好。針對NCC，基本上本席的看法分三個層次就教你，第一個層次是對你個人不滿，那種充滿洩憤及情緒性的攻擊不是我的專長，排解私人之間的恩怨也不是我樂意做的事情，所以這個本席不問。","第二個部分，對於NCC的政策，甚至你決定該政策是否涉及違法，這個部分很簡單，本席一貫的態度，如果對政策不滿意，臺灣是一個民主國家，我們的民主國家裡面叫做責任政治，也就是政策做錯了，執政黨要承擔，因為選民會透過投票，把責任歸屬搞清楚，這個叫責任政治。至於如果有涉及違法，那就直接移送法辦，我想這個也沒有什麼，本席也非常支持，如果有違法就直接移送，這個也沒有什麼。","本席今天要把重點放在制度，就是到底立法院可不可以透過NCC組織法的修法，讓整個國家的責任政治跟權力分立的原則蕩然無存？今天有委員提案要把NCC的組織法加以修法，對NCC委員的產生方式有不一樣的意見，委員提案當然沒有問題，但是本席回來當立法委員之後，我只強調一點，我們臺灣是一個民主國家，民主國家很重要的精神在於權力分立，也就是行政權做什麼、立法權做什麼，行政權做什麼及立法權做什麼，最終我們在責任政治的架構底下，對違法的、該被處分的，選民會做裁判，這就是責任政治。如果今天閣員可以由政黨比例代表，請問這個決策到底是哪一黨要來買單？因為NCC又是合議制，這個決策要哪一黨買單？這就違背了責任政治的原則。","另外，權力分立其實更清楚，到底立法權有沒有干預行政權？如果大家要把這個權力分立原則破壞掉，其實也不用那麼複雜啦，大家也可以修法、修憲法，修成乾脆閣員也按照政黨比例，這個就是臺灣要走向哪一個國家，我們現在就是權力分立的原則。我想這個態度其實很清楚，所以本席沒有什麼要你特別回答，因為這個涉及到權力分立跟責任政治，不是你NCC主委可以在這裡回答的問題，只是本席要強調，立法院是國民黨拿到了多數，但是國民黨拿到了多數可不可以違背權力分立的原則？你看談建設預算，國民黨用特別條例，自己決定了該做什麼建設、要做在哪裡、要多久完成及要編多少預算，那這樣到底權力分立在哪裡？行政權到底要做什麼？因為立法權都透過特別條例把執政黨施政的重點諸如做在哪裡、什麼時候做、多久完成及預算編多少等等都把它搞定了。","再談及政策，我們有電價審議委員會，朝野可以有不同的主張，但是做成政策的決定來取代電價審議委員會，這也違背權力分立的原則。現在人事權的任命，實際上，總統選出來也是有民意基礎，他不是自己報名就可以當的，他承受民意的支持，他有他的人事任命權，決定要怎麼任命，如果他做不好，沒關係，大家可以批評，他做不好，人民看在眼裡就會把他取代掉，這叫做權力分立。所以如果立法院要擴權到這個地步，如果立法院照這個邏輯下去無所不能啦，我們也可以做一個提案，提案什麼呢？提案大法官不得對立法院的決議釋憲，也可以啊！只要國民黨提案，它還是會通過，因為國民黨是多數。其實多數黨也要有一個基本的節制，不能說你是多數黨，那你這個責任政治在哪裡？權力分立的原則在哪裡？你就要為所欲為、違法亂紀。這個會期以來幾乎都在談這個事情，我覺得這個是今天所有的根本，所有民眾對於立法院第11屆立法委員開議到今天，我想這個也是爭議所在，對於這個立法權，一旦在國會拿到多數，你要全面的把行政權做這樣的處理，這是本席比較沒有辦法接受的。所以我想藉著今天的質詢，本席要對這個問題提出這樣的看法。","最後，我想也可以給召委做一個參考，當然過去8年我都在主持會議，主席引經據典，議事人員給主席參考，主席當然應該對會議詢問做出裁示，不管委員對這個裁示滿不滿意，但是主席可以做出這個裁示，主席如果不裁示然後要進行，恐怕這個爭議就會出現。對於剛剛那個到底可不可以移送，我們看立法院職權行使法第四十八條很清楚告訴大家，立法院調閱文件時拒絕、拖延或隱匿不提供者，得經立法院院會之決議，將其移送監察院依法提出糾正、糾舉或彈劾。第四十八條裡面很清楚，白紙黑字寫在這裡，國民黨多數就在委員會堅持要這樣做，這第四十八條法律條文就寫在這裡，白紙黑字寫得這麼清楚，這樣可以移送嗎？其實這個就是我擔憂的，立法院可以這樣搞嗎？國民黨就多數，其實可以一樣嘛，在委員會通過送院會，國民黨在院會也是多數，既然國民黨在院會多數，如果覺得有問題要送監察院，這就是法律程序啊！你們就去送，監察院怎麼弄那是另外一件事情。所以本席還是建議主席可以參考一下，這不用表決，你可以直接裁示可不可以，時間已經到了，我就發言到這裡，謝謝。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位請何委員欣純發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","林國成","莊瑞雄","柯建銘","沈發惠","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","黃健豪","李昆澤","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","游顥","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","林沛祥","陳雪生"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 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決策到底是哪一黨要來買單因為你們又是合一支這個決策要哪一黨這個就違背了這個責任政治的原則那另外呢這個權力分立啊其實更清楚到底誰"},{"start":176.924,"end":180.546,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案 。"},{"start":204.909,"end":232.757,"text":"所以本席我沒有什麼要你特別回答因為這個涉及到權利分立跟責任政治不是你NCC主委可以在這裡回答的問題只是本席要強調立法院國民黨拿到了多數但是國民黨拿到了多數可不可以違背這個權利分立的原則你看談建設預算國民黨用特別條例"},{"start":233.976,"end":257.71,"text":"自己決定了該做什麼建設要做在哪裡要多久完成要編多少預算然後呢那這樣的話我們到底權利分立在哪裡行政權到底要做什麼因為你立法權都透過特別條例把這個施政的重點執政黨施政的重點要做在哪裡什麼時候做多久要完成然後呢預算要編多少都把它搞定了"},{"start":258.51,"end":280.235,"text":"另外政策我們有電駕審議委員會大家草也可以有不同的主張但是做成政策的決定來取代電駕審議委員會那這也違背權力分立的原則現在人事權的任命執政黨也總統算出來他也有民意基礎他不是自己報名就可以做"},{"start":282.233,"end":286.997,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一．二）委員洪孟楷等23人擬具"},{"start":302.961,"end":307.93,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及法制、交通委員會組織法"},{"start":318.086,"end":335.139,"text":"國民黨只要提案他還是會通過嘛,因為國民黨是多數嘛。多數黨也是要有一個基本責任啦。不能說你多數黨,你這個責任政治在哪裡,權力分立的原則在哪裡,你就要為所欲為,違法亂紀。這就是我今天對於這個會期以來幾乎都在談這個事情啦。"},{"start":340.423,"end":368.717,"text":"所以我覺得這個是今天所謂的根本我想所有民眾對於這個第11屆的立法委員開議到今天我想這個今天也是爭議的所在到底這個立法權你要全面的來你國會拿到多數你要全面的把行政權做這樣的處理我覺得這個其實是本席比較沒有辦法接受所以我想藉著今天的質詢本席要對這個問題提出這樣的一個看法那最後我想這個"},{"start":370.305,"end":372.507,"text":"法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案案案案"},{"start":390.337,"end":414.758,"text":"應該對會議詢問做出裁示,不管這個裁示委員滿不滿意,但是主席可以做出這個裁示,但主席如果不裁示要進行,恐怕這個爭議就會來,這個爭議就會出現。那對於剛剛那個到底可不可以移送,你看喔,立法院職業刑事法第48條裡面很清楚地告訴大家,立法院調閱文件時拒絕拖延或隱匿不提供者經立法院院會的決議,"},{"start":415.799,"end":428.642,"text":"可以將其移送檢察院依法提出糾正、糾舉或彈劾。48條裡面很清楚的就白紙黑紙寫在這。啊我們喔國民黨倒數啊就在委員會堅持要跟他說這樣在這就要準備。啊這48條就法律條文就寫在這。白紙黑紙寫得這麼清楚"},{"start":438.288,"end":447.395,"text":"立法院第11屆第1次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第2次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第3次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法"},{"start":455,"end":457.183,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案 案。"}]}},{"id":"151973","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151973","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bcd0c4a998545b8fcaf7b9089f19fa5f77f5010e63071191919376995a466ca645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葉元之","委員發言時間":"12:09:13 - 12:14:05","影片長度":"00:04:52","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部、交通部、大陸委員會、財團法人海峽交流基金會、原住民族委員會就「針對陸方開放大陸觀光客來台具體回應及作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":292,"end_time":"2024-05-01T12:14:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T12:09:13+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1086,"blocks":[["葉委員元之：（12時9分）我請陸委會、交通部觀光署。"],["主席：好，有請李副主委及周副署長，謝謝。"],["葉委員元之：兩位官員好。我想問一下，因為我們傅總召到大陸去，大陸有一些開放，然後有一些對臺的善意。我想問一下，我們政府現在的態度到底是什麼？因為我這幾天看民進黨的很多回應，我有點錯亂。有的民進黨立委是講說不要仰人鼻息，小恩小惠不要也罷，這是民進黨很多立委的說法；陳建仁院長的說法是說這是善意，我們會研議之後再回應。請問一下，現在民進黨的態度到底是什麼？政府的態度到底是什麼？可不可以比較明確告訴我們。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：就陸委會的部分，對陸客來臺觀光我們就是樂見，既然陸方已經有開了馬祖，我們就可以馬上來實施；其他有一些附條件的部分，我們就要跨部會來做進一步研議。"],["葉委員元之：所以你們認為是善意是不是？陸委會認為態度是善意？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：對。"],["葉委員元之：觀光署覺得是善意嗎？"],["周副署長廷彰：我們歡迎兩岸……"],["葉委員元之：那你們對於民進黨這些人一直說不要仰人鼻息、這個是養套殺、這很爛、不能接受啊！你們的看法是什麼？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：每一位委員的發言我們都是尊重。"],["葉委員元之：你不認同？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們沒有認同不認同……"],["葉委員元之：你認同，所以你認同？你認同？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：不是，沒有這個問題、沒有這個問題……"],["葉委員元之：那你還是不認同？認同不認同、意見認不認同都講不出來？這就認同不認同嘛！"],["李副主任委員麗珍：因為看委員講的時候是從哪個角度……"],["葉委員元之：就是講我剛剛那個角度。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們不能……"],["葉委員元之：好啦，我也不為難你，因為要官員用專業的立場去打臉那些意識形態的立委，也確實是不能讓你們去背這個鍋。","總而言之，至少我看起來民進黨政府對於這個覺得是善意的，如果覺得是善意，那我們要接球。我這邊有幾點建議，第一個，因為兩岸的專業團體都有一些交流的需要，就我的瞭解是一直卡在陸委會。譬如像旅展，之前有一些大陸的官員想要來參加臺灣旅展交流，被陸委會卡住；再來就是宗教，今天是剛好媽祖、天上聖母聖誕，有一些媽祖相關的交流也被陸委會卡住；還有一些學術的交流也都被陸委會卡住。陸委會每一次都說這個要聯審，但有人去問過其他的主管機關，都說就是陸委會在卡。請問一下，陸委會為什麼老是對於這種專業的團體交流這麼有意見？到底是為什麼？是意識形態還是怎麼樣？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：據我知道，並沒有像委員說的這樣的狀況。"],["葉委員元之：你是說沒有，但是我到時候可以提供給你數據，就是這幾年老是……現在就是專案審查嘛，然後就一直卡、一直卡。我這邊建議，因為在疫情前是通案審查，沒有專案審查，現在是一個案子、一個案子審，然後挑毛病，為什麼疫情已經過這麼久了還要專案審查？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：人員的開放我想還是要循序漸進。"],["葉委員元之：現在已經沒有疫情了，什麼循序漸進？你當初改成專案的理由已經消失了，為什麼還要繼續專案呢？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：目前的專案我們會儘快加速。"],["葉委員元之：因為我時間快到了，第二個問題，平潭到臺灣，貨運現在還是有嘛，對不對？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：對，航線是在的。"],["葉委員元之：貨運還是有，現在只是把客運加進去，為什麼不行？現在兩岸之間空運有沒有直航點？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：空運有。"],["葉委員元之：幾個？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：定期航班有15個，包機有13個。"],["葉委員元之：空運有15個，航運不行，為什麼？我不懂這個邏輯，空運兩邊的人員可以來往，但是海運不行，理由是什麼？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：沒有不行，你是說……"],["葉委員元之：你沒有開放嘛！所以現在平潭跟臺灣的客運開放是有可能的？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們過去就講航點恢復就是看需求，還有看……"],["葉委員元之：現在就是有需求，現在是沒需求嗎？有沒有需求？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：跟委員報告，所以現在交通部這邊就是儘快在會商大家一起來做處理。"],["葉委員元之：因為我時間到了，所以你們什麼時候會有答案？你不是說儘快，什麼時候會有答案？我剛剛在辦公室看到洪孟楷委員在生氣，我想說他幹麼發那麼大的脾氣？我現在才知道為什麼會發脾氣，我們問的東西都問這麼具體，然後答案都糊弄我們，那我在這邊4、5分鐘幹麼？召委，我第一次來內政委員會，真的不知道原來這些官員是這麼糊弄的？謝謝召委。"],["主席：好，非常謝謝葉元之委員的質詢。也辛苦了李副主委，也辛苦了航政司的韓司長，也辛苦了交通部的周副署長，召委真的也挺同情你們的，政府的政策實在真的不符民意。","登記發言的委員除了不在場之外，其餘都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員黃仁、徐巧芯、林德福、莊瑞雄、王鴻薇所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答復的部分，請相關單位在一週之內以書面答復，並副知本會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":506,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","李柏毅","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","傅崐萁","廖先翔","鄭天財Sra 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什麼循序漸進你當初改成專案的理由已經消失了為什麼還要繼續專案呢目前呢 整個第二個問題平潭到台灣現在這個貨運還是有嘛對不對對 現在只是把客運加進去為什麼不行"},{"start":212.168,"end":217.692,"text":"我們現在兩岸之間 空運有沒有直航點 有沒有幾個15個 空運有15個 航運不行 為什麼"},{"start":225.203,"end":247.712,"text":"我不懂在哪幾耶?在空運兩邊的人員可以來往,但是海運不行,理由是什麼?沒有不行,是說…你沒有開放嘛,那雖然現在平潭跟台灣的開放是有可能的喔?客運開放?我們過去就講航點的恢復是就是看需求還有看…那現在就是有需求啊,現在是沒需求嗎?"},{"start":249.153,"end":259.005,"text":"所以我們現在交通部這邊就是盡快在會上大家大家來做處理那時間到了,所以你們什麼時候會有答案?盡快什麼時候會有答案?"},{"start":267.262,"end":268.483,"text":"好 非常感謝"}]}},{"id":"151972","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151972","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b12fab638ddd7229baf7b9089f19fa5f77f5010e630711919f9bbaa56767decb95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭正鈐","委員發言時間":"12:01:51 - 12:07:39","影片長度":"00:05:48","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部、交通部、大陸委員會、財團法人海峽交流基金會、原住民族委員會就「針對陸方開放大陸觀光客來台具體回應及作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":348,"end_time":"2024-05-01T12:07:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T12:01:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1053,"blocks":[["鄭委員正鈐：（12時1分）主席好，我想請一下陸委會的副主委李麗珍副主委，還有交通部觀光署的副署長周廷彰周副署長。"],["主席：請李副主委、周副署長。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：委員好。"],["鄭委員正鈐：非常感謝主席今天特別安排了針對陸方開放大陸觀光客來臺具體回應及作為這樣的主題。其實很多委員也都問了，我對於陸委會跟交通部的書面資料，基本上交通部說兩岸恢復健康有序的交流是政府立場，然後把它推給陸委會；陸委會這邊提到政府在研議後會作出回應，期能逐步落實恢復陸客組團來臺觀光的政策，這就是你們的結論，聽起來都很好。我一樣想要追一個狀態是，你們什麼時候會有具體的回應？副主委？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：這個部分因為還涉及跨部會的協商，我想我們會儘快。"],["鄭委員正鈐：對，就儘快喔！你剛剛的回應其實洪孟楷委員也非常的生氣，因為儘快這兩個字就拖了很久！之前大家在追為什麼6月1號團客不能再去大陸這部分的決策，也沒有研議的結果出來，都不知道到底是誰做的決策，這就是現在兩岸關係當中，民進黨無能的一個具體表示。","我想具體請教陸委會副主委，因為520總統就職宣誓，所以相關的書面報告很重要，我們希望在賴清德520講稿當中是不是能夠具體回應這個事情？我會去押這個時間，520賴清德就職的講稿是不是能夠回應兩岸陸客交流的問題？副主委？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們會建議，是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你們會建議是嘛！對不對？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們會建議。"],["鄭委員正鈐：你們會建議賴清德總統在520講稿當中很具體回應兩岸旅客交流的問題是不是？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：因為總統的講稿並不是陸委會……"],["鄭委員正鈐：你剛才提到說你們會建議嘛！"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是、是。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK，我希望你們繼續努力。因為520是一個很重要的時間點，如果賴清德在520講稿當中具體地回應這個事情，我相信所有的旅遊業者就不會準備520要上街頭。520上街頭是旅遊業他們基於生計所碰到的一個具體問題，現在陸方這邊釋出善意，您剛特別提到馬祖這邊隨時可以來了，對不對？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：對。"],["鄭委員正鈐：隨時嘛，今天要來就可以今天來……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：申請。"],["鄭委員正鈐：申請來就可以直接來嘛，對不對？至於另外一個時間點，我想問一下交通部，平潭跟臺灣的客運什麼時候能夠政策宣示是可以走的？"],["韓司長振華：報告委員，這部分我們目前也正在跟陸委會研議中。"],["鄭委員正鈐：還是陸委會？"],["韓司長振華：朝這個目標來努力。"],["鄭委員正鈐：還是在研議？預計什麼時候可以做一個政策宣示？因為平潭跟臺灣的客運以前就有在走，是因為疫情才停下來，改成貨運，現在客運要走有什麼困難嗎？副主委。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：現在主要就是客源的部分。"],["鄭委員正鈐：政策宣示是一件事情，而客源是市場面臨的問題，你們政策都沒有宣布，就去考慮客源的問題，這不是一個畫蛇添足的事情嗎？你們政策都沒有定，政策定了之後，市場怎麼走是後續的問題，是業者要去面對的問題。你們政策都沒有開放，就把這責任推到業者身上去，怎麼會合理？所以我要問一下副主委，平潭到臺灣的客運預計什麼時候可以開？政策宣示什麼時候可以做？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：這個部分我們就會儘快來做宣示。"],["鄭委員正鈐：OK。因為這兩件事情如果開了，我覺得兩岸的觀光旅遊就可以逐步地恢復正常，就是你們講的部分，能夠逐步落實恢復陸客組團來臺觀光的政策，對於臺灣觀光旅遊的相關業者才是一個救命丹。因為你們都是事務官，你們今天來擋這個部分，我也覺得你們很可憐。因為民進黨在兩岸政策當中無能，連對話的能力都沒有，現在在野黨把兩岸旅遊溝通的門先把它打開來了，對方釋出了善意，不管善意有大有小，都是善意，重點是現在無能的民進黨怎麼去因應兩岸這樣的議題，把這個球接好，才能夠真正讓兩岸的旅遊觀光業進入常軌，好不好？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：好，謝謝委員。"],["鄭委員正鈐：剛剛講的那兩個時間點請副主委去努力一下，希望把這個政策開放，在520總統就職演講時能夠把它呈現出來，好不好？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：好，我們來努力。"],["鄭委員正鈐：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭正鈐委員，謝謝副署長，也謝謝副主委，謝謝。","我再說明一下，剛剛臨時提案有請交通部、陸委會相關部會要立即開放福建平潭往返臺灣的客運運輸，然後推動福建民眾赴臺團客旅遊。請大家回去的時候告訴即將接任的主委也好，或者是其他相關的人員，請他們無縫接軌，好不好？謝謝。","繼續我們請莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄、莊瑞雄委員不在。","吳思瑤、吳思瑤、吳思瑤委員不在。","洪申翰、洪申翰、洪申翰委員不在。","羅智強、羅智強、羅智強委員不在。","傅崐萁、傅崐萁、傅崐萁委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯、謝衣鳯委員不在。","楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","游顥、游顥、游顥委員不在。","林德福、林德福、林德福委員不在。","羅明才、羅明才、羅明才委員不在。","王鴻薇、王鴻薇、王鴻薇委員不在。","現在請葉元之委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":506,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","李柏毅","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","傅崐萁","廖先翔","鄭天財Sra 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agreement，這中間這些國會議員只是去做溝通的工作，對方提出一個offer，我們這邊公權力如果沒有counter offer，就是同意，就不會成為一個deal，哪會成為一個協議呢？這是前期的溝通工作，這是基本的法制A、B、C。沒關係，所以兩岸關係會走到這個地步就是有很多人什麼都不懂，然後就講出一些莫名其妙破壞努力工作的人的想法。","請副主委。"],["主席：好，有請李副主委。"],["陳委員玉珍：法務部、海基會。"],["主席：法務部司長，然後海基會副秘書長。"],["陳委員玉珍：副主委，還有法務部也上來。我剛剛聽到您有提到大陸開放福建到馬祖旅遊這個部分，你們事實上本來就已經做好規劃開放金門、馬祖，也是同意的嘛？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：對，馬上就開通。是。"],["陳委員玉珍：你們是希望連金門都一起開放嘛？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：當然。"],["陳委員玉珍：同意嘛！所以大陸沒有開放，大陸開放部分的門開得很小，對不對？門開得很小，我都可以說，你不用擔心。臺、澎、金、馬這個部分，我們也支持開放金門嗎？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：當然。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒問題？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：當然。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以我們不用被動，我們現在是被動，我看你們說：「等到陸方同意開放，我們就來實施」。我們可以主動宣布，金門開放讓大陸旅客來，這沒問題嘛！"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們是已經開放，我們是說實現一定要對方也放客人才行。"],["陳委員玉珍：對，所以你跟大陸玩一樣的遊戲，一個前提，大陸就說0214要先解決；你又說一定要它開放。現在它已經先主動開放馬祖了，沒有任何的前提，它已經開放馬祖，開了一個小小的縫，你也可以說我們主動。因為你剛剛也是支持，沒錯吧？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們已經開放了。只要他們送件，我們就……"],["陳委員玉珍：那太好了，這個答案就是我要的。我們事實上開放大陸，你現在就宣布我們開放陸客到金門來。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：去年就宣布了。"],["陳委員玉珍：到金門來？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：你這樣再講一次。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們去年就已經說9月底之後，我們就歡迎大陸，就放他們的客人到臺灣來，也到金門、馬祖。"],["陳委員玉珍：那就沒有任何前提，所以只要大陸願意送件就可以過來？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：對。"],["陳委員玉珍：就可以到金門？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：這個沒有問題？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是，沒問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：剛剛我看到你們的報告第一頁裡頭說，只要陸方同意開放，這個不要設前提，反正你們就宣布開放，對吧？你剛剛的意思就不用設前提了，開放，它要不要開放是它的事……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：它要放才能實現。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒錯，它要放是它的事情，它不放，自然我們的百姓、業者也會反過去要求，對吧？大家不要一直雞生蛋、蛋生雞，等到你開放我才開放，或我開放你才開放。不過你剛剛先講到，因為我要講金門的部分，所以金門部分沒有問題。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：沒有問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：金門部分反正已經開放，就等大陸開放而已，大陸就讓他自己送……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：實現……"],["陳委員玉珍：只要送件，反正你們會准，你只要告訴我這一句就好。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝。接著沒有開放的原因是0214，那時候有兩個大陸漁民溺水。有關溺水案，陸委會跟海基會現在跟大陸有沒有溝通的管道？海基會除了文書這種往來以外，有沒有什麼溝通的管道？以前海基會都扮演很重要角色。陸委會……"],["蔡副秘書長孟君：我們針對這個事件，依政府的囑託，我們有發函到海協會。"],["陳委員玉珍：然後呢？然後答案呢？就是兩位大陸漁民在金門這個事件，影響金門很大。"],["蔡副秘書長孟君：另外，我們也是在當地幫助那兩位……"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有，你們跟大陸有沒有？當地、大陸？"],["蔡副秘書長孟君：大陸那邊海協對我們的發函沒有給正式的回復。"],["陳委員玉珍：沒有任何回應就對了？"],["蔡副秘書長孟君：沒有給正式回復。"],["陳委員玉珍：有沒有讀，你也不知道啦！"],["蔡副秘書長孟君：他一定有讀。"],["陳委員玉珍：有讀嗎？"],["蔡副秘書長孟君：有。"],["陳委員玉珍：你怎麼知道？陸委會呢？你們跟國臺辦有沒有溝通的管道？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：在金門的時候，海巡署跟對方協調的時候，陸委會也有參與。"],["陳委員玉珍：陸委會有參與嗎？海基會有參與嗎？"],["蔡副秘書長孟君：有，我們從旁協助。"],["陳委員玉珍：那次去協調，海基會有派人去開會嘛？大陸也有派海協會，也有一個海協會的人員，有嘛？但是沒有談成。我來講這件事情接下去怎麼處理。法務部，大陸要求就上次這個事情3月份以後大家繼續往下談，請問法務部，這個案子金門地檢署到底還要偵辦多久？"],["孟司長玉梅：金門地檢署現在仍在偵辦中。"],["陳委員玉珍：已經偵辦多久了？這個是多重大的事情，卡住所有事情。你看一下，偵查不公開作業辦法第八條有，為了維護公共利益，這已經涉及到全金門的公共利益、合法權益，有必要可以適度揭露，然後重大矚目，這應該是社會矚目案件了吧？這個社會矚目案件很大，你們是不是趕快說明，什麼時候會辦好？"],["孟司長玉梅：因為現在是偵查中，已經將相關的這些事證送請專家鑑定。"],["陳委員玉珍：在鑑定？還要多久？"],["孟司長玉梅：對，在鑑定中。因為這是涉及到第三方的鑑定，所以這個時程要依照鑑定的程序來完成。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你們都不知道多久就對了？所以整個金門發展會因為你們法務部的遲滯而受到影響。可不可以辦快一點呢？這個時間，可以嗎？趕快有一個結果出來！"],["孟司長玉梅：檢察機關一定是依據法律。"],["陳委員玉珍：多久呢？你給我時間。"],["孟司長玉梅：因為這是涉及到鑑定，鑑定這個部分就不是地檢署說，我要他什麼時候完成鑑定就完成鑑定……"],["陳委員玉珍：你也可以一個月內鑑定出來，怎麼會不行呢？"],["孟司長玉梅：要看……"],["陳委員玉珍：從2月到5月，現在都已經3個月了。"],["孟司長玉梅：涉及到鑑定的複雜面向、船舶比對等等……"],["陳委員玉珍：反正你也沒有辦法說什麼。","最後我再問，陸委會不知道有沒有看到？我看剛剛很多委員還是在質詢意識形態的東西。現在我們看到兩岸的領導人，不管是賴清德總統或是習近平總書記，他們事實上兩邊都在互相釋放出善意。陸委會應該有觀察到這一點吧？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是。"],["陳委員玉珍：都有說要交流，不管是什麼方向，所以我是奉勸這些已經還在車上的，等一下如果說不對，就會被甩尾了。兩邊的最高領導人都已經在釋出善意了，下面的人應該就是往這個方向前進。陸委會溝通的部分……副主委有在聽嗎？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：有，我在看……"],["陳委員玉珍：我想新任的主委應該也會有很多經驗。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是，請委員繼續指教，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝陳玉珍委員。","繼續請洪孟楷委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":506,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","李柏毅","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","傅崐萁","廖先翔","鄭天財Sra 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我要幫陸委會回答這個議題啦齁這個 怎麼叫 deal 協議 agreement deal 嘛對方提一個 offer 我們要一個 counter offer 才叫 deal agreement"},{"start":16.861,"end":17.321,"text":"副主委法務部"},{"start":42.368,"end":43.069,"text":"法務部司長、海基會副秘書長"},{"start":53.436,"end":58.338,"text":"我剛剛聽到您說有在提到說大陸開放這個馬祖這個部分附近大馬祖旅遊這個部分那你們事實上本來就已經做好規劃開放金門馬祖也是同意的你們是希望連金門都一起開放嗎當然當然所以大陸沒有開放這個大陸開放的部分門開的很小對不對"},{"start":76.56,"end":95.426,"text":"門開得很小啦我都可以說你不用擔心那這個那我們這個部分我們這個台風金馬之門我們也支持開放金門嗎當然沒問題齁當然所以我們不用被動嘛我們現在是被動說欸我看你們說等到陸方同意開放我們就來實施我們可以主動啊我們主動說宣布金門開放讓大陸來嘛"},{"start":97.327,"end":102.411,"text":"我們是已經開放我們是說實現一定要對方也放客人所以你一樣你跟大陸玩一樣的遊戲一個前提大陸就說那個0214先解決你又說一定要他開放你現在他已經先主動開放馬祖了沒有任何的前提他已經開放馬祖開了一個小小的縫你也可以說"},{"start":115.362,"end":115.402,"text":"陳玉珍"},{"start":135.625,"end":153.522,"text":"9月底之後我們就歡迎大陸就放他們的客人到哪到台灣來好 那就沒有任何前提嘛所以只要大陸願意送件就可以過來嘛就可以到金門嘛是是好 這個沒有問題嘛剛剛我看到你們這個報告第1頁裡頭說也是想說什麼只要陸方同意開放那這個不要設前提啊反正你們就宣布開放嘛"},{"start":155.518,"end":182.715,"text":"你剛剛的意思是說不用設前提了開放那他要不要開放是他的事嘛他要放才能實現那沒錯他要放是他的事情他不放自然我們的百姓業者也會反過去要求啊對吧就不要大家不要一直雞生蛋蛋自己等到你開放我才開放你才開放嘛不過你剛剛先講到因為我要講金門的部分所以金門部分沒有問題啦金門部分已經就是說反正已經開放了就等大陸開放而已啦大陸只要就讓他自己送 只要送件反正你們會准啦你只要告訴我這一句就好了"},{"start":184.096,"end":196.702,"text":"好 謝謝然後接著那個沒有開放的原因是0214這個的這個就是那個就是海巡那時候有兩個漁民刀在漁民這個溺水啦齁那溺水 陸委會跟海基委你們現在跟刀有沒有溝通的管道"},{"start":198.868,"end":227.114,"text":"海峽除了這個文書這種往來以外有沒有什麼溝通的管道以前海峽都扮演很重要角色陸委會我想我們針對這個事件就是政府的主託我們有發函到海峽發函然後呢對然後答案呢就是那個兩位大陸漁民在金門這個影響金門很大那另外就是說我們也是在當地幫助那兩位沒有沒有你們跟大陸我們要當地大陸那邊海峽對於我們的發函他沒有給我們正式的回覆沒有任何回應就對了沒有給正式回覆有沒有讀你也不知道了"},{"start":228.393,"end":228.573,"text":"法務部"},{"start":257.997,"end":272.109,"text":"請問一下現在大陸的事實上要求是就上次的這個上次到3月份以後嘛3月份以後的這個事情繼續往下大家繼續往下談那這個請問法務部金門地檢署這個案子到底還要偵辦多久金門地檢署現在仍然在偵辦中"},{"start":277.333,"end":303.19,"text":"已經申辦多久了,這個是多重大的事情啊,卡住手機,來,這個你看一下,不公開作為辦法第8條有,這些東西為了維護公共利益,這已經涉及到全金門的公共利益了,合法權益,有必要可以適度揭露嘛,然後這個重大的矚目,這應該是社會矚目案件了吧,這個社會矚目案件很大,你們是不是趕快的說明啊,什麼時候會辦好呢?"},{"start":304.858,"end":330.316,"text":"因為現在的偵查中是已經將相關的一些這些事證送請專家鑑定在鑑定還要多久呢那因為就是涉及到第三方的一個鑑定所以這個時程是要依照鑑定的這個所以你們都不知道多久對不對所以整個金門發展會因為你們法務部的這個辭職而受到影響喔跟委員說明就是說可不可以辦快一點呢這個時間可以嗎趕快有一個結果出來嘛"},{"start":331.871,"end":342.302,"text":"蔣經緯一定是依據法令 因為這是涉及到一個鑑定鑑定這個部分就不是地檢署說 我要他什麼時候你也可以鑑定一個月內出來 怎麼會不行呢現在都已經二月到四月五月了 三個月了"},{"start":347.026,"end":370.103,"text":"那涉及到這個鑑定的這個復雜面向等等這些反正你也沒有辦法說什麼那我再問部長那對不起再一分鐘喔最後一個是喔我像陸委會不知道有沒有看到很多我看我們剛剛很多委員回答還是在意識形態的東西現在我們看到兩岸的這個領導人不管是賴清德總統或是習近平總書記他們現在事實上兩邊都在互相釋放出善意啦我想陸委會應該有觀察到這一點吧"},{"start":371.924,"end":372.144,"text":"陳玉珍"},{"start":391.237,"end":391.638,"text":"新任副主委"}]}},{"id":"151969","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151969","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bcab2943b409e6827af7b9089f19fa5f77f5010e6307119191c8d1a4ee289610d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"11:42:32 - 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關係條例第五條之一的規定那我們各級地方的政府機關公務人員或者是各級的民意代表沒有經過盧委會的授權不得與大陸地區人民法人團體或者是其他機關用任何形式簽署協議可以請副主委解釋一下任何形式協商是什麼嗎"},{"start":34.693,"end":46.951,"text":"這是指那個涉及公權力的部分的協商還有簽署協議那這個要經過授權那簽署協議一定是要指書面簽署才算嗎"},{"start":51.044,"end":63.974,"text":"因為現在的協議呈現方式也不一定是書面那如果口頭協議發生了書面協議的效果算是符合兩岸的民間條例裡面簽署協議嗎?"},{"start":65.999,"end":85.811,"text":"這個要看各案實質來做認定是那副委員他率團到中國是會見中國政協主席王惠寧那在他們協商之後那中國武林部宣布開放福建民眾駙馬族旅遊並將在平坦與台灣海上客運恢復後恢復福建民眾來台團體旅遊"},{"start":88.032,"end":107.194,"text":"那翻成白話我們簡單講就是副委員跟中國談完之後那中國就以副條件限區域的方式來恢復陸客來台觀光那這是不是所謂的口頭協議卻發生了書面協議的效果那如果是這樣的話是不是有違反兩岸關係人民條例的第51條"},{"start":111.972,"end":125.769,"text":"我相信副委員對於相關法律規定都很熟悉而且不只有副委員,還有好多位委員都有去"},{"start":126.309,"end":150.309,"text":"我們必須要有一個完整的指引現在不是我們委員熟不熟悉我們要針對個別委員或者是要恭喜我的同僚但是我們的法令要非常的清晰這樣是不是符合書面協議的效果那這樣有沒有違反條例的精神要先講清楚不要讓這些我們的這些國會的同僚那具有觸法的嫌疑嘛"},{"start":152.37,"end":177.43,"text":"我們要再請我們的法證單位來做進一步的研究我個人是反對這樣子的做法因為沒有經過入委會的授權那這樣去做是不對的但是我們更希望說作為主管局的入委會那要講清楚說明白為什麼因為口頭協議跟書面協議它可能會產生未來政治問題假設如果未來有另外一批"},{"start":177.99,"end":206.356,"text":"我不管地方的議員也好或者是未來的其他的立法委員也好再去中國再談出來另外一個協議他沒有簽署但是會有實質效果影響到我國在國際社會的這個說話權或者是影響到我國在國際的這些認知那怎麼辦他一樣沒有他只是口頭喔但是他一定要他不是書面的簽署但是他一樣有他政治的效應甚至是有實質的政策的影響那這樣的話陸委會怎麼辦"},{"start":208.226,"end":208.766,"text":"針對兩岸人民關係條例"},{"start":225.475,"end":252.094,"text":"他重點的精神非常重要不要以任何的協商達成涉及臺灣地區公權力的這個協議那這會影響到我們的國際空間我想還是要強調不可以說是因為口頭的方式然後就說這沒有違反到五之一條那其實它是有影響的那實質上面的影響是直接某種程度已經直接造成了我剛剛講到的負條件限期域不對等的這樣子的開放我覺得這是不對的"},{"start":252.654,"end":252.996,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"151968","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151968","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bbdc155f0b57572dcaf7b9089f19fa5f77f5010e630711919a4fe3771cb6bf56e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：但文字不完全一樣，這個沒有關係。陸委會的報告裡面也提到雙方規劃差異，也提到本會（陸委會）、交通部及相關機關需時間釐清所涉相關事宜，妥慎處理，以利後續實際執行，確保有序交流，並符合臺灣整體利益。我們看陳建仁院長對於大陸的一個宣布，他直接說，對於相關回應臺灣早就已經「準備好了」，這跟你前面寫的、我剛唸的陸委會的說明有出入。觀光署還提到另外一個事情，你的報告我沒有引用，你還提到另外一個事情。所以這個部分，我先問陸委會李副主委，陳建仁院長說早就準備好了，如何？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：他指的應該就是陸客來臺的部分。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：對啊，我們準備好了，怎麼你這邊的報告裡面還需時間釐清，然後妥慎處理？這個部分還是不要那麼保守，當然你們是公務員，也有可能寫上去之後上面改了，所以這個部分……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：這是我們前幾天宣布的內容。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：陳院長提到，這是4月29日的新聞，所以是前一天就講了，針對這個部分，我們如果回顧過去兩岸的交流，從戒嚴，然後解嚴的第二年就開放大陸探親，對不對？是我們先開放的，包括一切後續的，都是我們先開放的。臺灣作為一個自由民主法治的國家，我們號稱自由民主法治國家，我們還是在現行法律被明定為威權統治時期的時候，法律有明定威權統治時期，當然這是這幾年訂的，我們是在被認為威權統治時期的時候就開放了，所以陸委會及觀光署，因為新的主委要進來了，新的部長也要進來了，你們要把整個過程寫得詳詳細細，從來就是我們先的，對不對？因為它對我們有利，不管是我們去、他們來，都是對我們有利的，對不對？所以這個部分要請兩位，兩位都是公務員出身，包括今天在場的公務員，你們要把過去都詳詳細細地寫出來給新的主委、新的部長來瞭解，好不好？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是，新的主委也很瞭解。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鄭天財委員的質詢，也謝謝官員。","繼續請陳冠廷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":506,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","李柏毅","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","傅崐萁","廖先翔","鄭天財Sra 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11:37:06","影片長度":"00:05:07","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部、交通部、大陸委員會、財團法人海峽交流基金會、原住民族委員會就「針對陸方開放大陸觀光客來台具體回應及作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":307,"end_time":"2024-05-01T11:37:06+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T11:31:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":866,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（11時31分）謝謝召委，麻煩邀請李副主委及觀光署周副署長。"],["主席：請李副主委及周副署長。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝二位長官。今天最主要的就是針對兩岸的觀光來做一個討論，其實對觀光業者來講，「顧腹肚」最重要，政治或是意識形態對他們來說都是其次的，他們只希望能夠有一個溫飽，希望有一個好的收益啦！這次我們國民黨團赴對岸去做一些溝通討論之後，陸方有發一些新聞稿嘛，對不對？我想先請教一下，這幾年臺灣的觀光業確實有反映他們過得不太好，我想確認一下，在觀光署的部分，最近一次統計我們臺灣的觀光逆差來到了多少？最近一次的統計你有沒有印象？無論是今年上半年到目前為止的統計或者是去年，這方面應該是每年都有統計，最近一次的統計資料大概的區間是哪時候、金額多少，你有印象嗎？"],["周副署長廷彰：委員的意思是……"],["廖委員先翔：觀光逆差的金額。"],["周副署長廷彰：這個我要查一下。"],["廖委員先翔：你要查一下？"],["周副署長廷彰：對。"],["廖委員先翔：當然原則上應該是有相當大金額的一個逆差，沒有錯，對不對？長期以來的統計應該好像沒有正過嘛！"],["周副署長廷彰：因為我們都沒有限制，所以國人喜歡到世界各地旅遊，這也是觀光產業的一部分。"],["廖委員先翔：所以原則上長期以來，我們臺灣的觀光經濟都是逆差的，如果說這一次陸方，因為我們只有階段性的討論，假設陸方開放他們福建的民眾到馬祖旅遊，以及福建居民到臺灣的團客旅遊開放，以及我們臺灣赴平潭的海上客運也開放，這三個如果都開放的情況下，對於我們臺灣的經濟觀光逆差會不會有幫助？你們的評估？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：應該是正向的。"],["廖委員先翔：一定是正向的？如果這三個都能夠完成的話，都是正向的，對不對？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是。"],["廖委員先翔：現在只有第一個前提有辦法做到，就是陸方開放民眾到馬祖的部分是有辦法做到的，對不對？因為他們已經宣布了，我們也沒有設阻礙……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：對。"],["廖委員先翔：所以就是已經達成了，那接下來就是另外的二個東西要來達成，就是平潭對臺方的、我們臺灣對平潭的海上客運，以及福建居民來到我們臺灣做團客旅遊。既然這二項都開放對我們臺灣的觀光逆差有幫助的話，請問一下我們現在斟酌的點大概在哪邊？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：現在就是這幾天各部會都在研議當中，尤其像剛剛講到的航點恢復，而航點恢復必須要先去瞭解業者的意願等等，這些……"],["廖委員先翔：航點恢復，你是指海運還是？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：就是平潭，因為航點的恢復在過去其實跟觀光是分開來的，就是說，只要有需求，就像空運的航點，我們已經放15個定期航班，13個可以包機，但是13個包機到現在都沒有包成，海運的加開也是要看有沒有客源等等，這些都在跨部會的討論當中。"],["廖委員先翔：剛剛應該前面有委員問到，我再問具體一點，針對平潭到臺灣的海上客運復航，你們有沒有訂一個時間點要召集各部會來做討論？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：這個部分，因為航運是交通部在主管，所以會由交通部來……"],["廖委員先翔：你們收到通知了嗎？今天交通部也有來嘛？時間訂了沒？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：在他們還沒通知之前，我們幕僚單位就會開始做一些……"],["廖委員先翔：你們多久以內可以召開相關會議來討論？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們會儘速。"],["廖委員先翔：直接給我一個時間，多久以內？有沒有辦法這樣子，交通部？"],["主席：航政司司長。"],["韓司長振華：報告委員，這部分我們會跟陸委會一起儘速來研議。"],["廖委員先翔：儘速是多久？給一個時間啦！你說儘速，是一年、兩年，還是一個禮拜、兩個禮拜？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：不會到一年、兩年。"],["廖委員先翔：多久以內？給大家一個方向，我沒有要求你要幾天，但多久以內？講得出來嗎？"],["主席：我們剛剛臨時提案有，第5案就是提到這個部分，已經通過了。"],["廖委員先翔：對啊，儘速是多久以內？講不出來？好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，非常謝謝先翔委員，謝謝副主委、司長。","繼續請鄭天財委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":506,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","李柏毅","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","傅崐萁","廖先翔","鄭天財Sra 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對不對那我想先請教一下這幾年這個台灣的觀光業確實他們反應過的不是太好我想確認一下最近觀光署的部分最近一次我們的統計我們台灣的觀光逆差來到了多少你有沒有最近一次的統計你有沒有印象無論是"},{"start":66.963,"end":90.595,"text":"上半年,今天上半年到位一次統計,或者是去年,這方面應該是每年都有統計嘛,最近一次的統計資料大概是區間的時候那金額多少,你有印象嗎?委員的意思是觀光逆差?金額?這個我要查一下你要查一下?但原則上應該是有一個相當大金額的逆差,沒有錯嘛對不對?"},{"start":92.689,"end":116.495,"text":"長期來統計應該好像沒有正過嗎我想這個國人因為我們都沒有限制所以國人喜歡到世界上各式旅遊這也是觀光產業的一部分是所以原則上長期來我們台灣的觀光的經濟都是逆差的那如果說這一次陸方如果說因為我們只有階段性的討論假設陸方"},{"start":119.416,"end":139.085,"text":"開放福建的民眾到媽祖旅遊以及福建的居民到臺灣團客開放以及我們臺灣赴平潭的海上客運都開放這三個都到開放的情況下對我們臺灣的經濟觀光逆差會不會有幫助?你們的評估應該是正向的"},{"start":146.648,"end":174.294,"text":"一定是真相的嘛,如果說這三個都能夠完成的話,那是真相的嘛,對不對?那現在只有第一個前提有辦法做到嘛,就是說這個陸方來到媽祖的部分是有辦法做到的嘛,對不對?因為已經宣布了,我們也沒有受阻礙,所以它就是已經達成了。那接下來就是兩個東西要來達成嘛,就是平潭對台方的,我們台灣對平潭的一個海上客運以及福建居民來到我們台灣做團客的旅遊。"},{"start":175.034,"end":184.876,"text":"那既然這兩項都開放對我們台灣的觀光逆差有幫助的話那請問一下我們現在斟酌的點大概在哪一邊"},{"start":187.735,"end":188.796,"text":"黃點恢復是海運還是平台?"},{"start":206.946,"end":232.987,"text":"因為航點的恢復過去其實跟觀光我們是分開來就是說只要有需求然後就像我們空運的航點我們已經放15個定期航班13個可以包機但是那13個包機到現在都沒有包成嘛那海運的加開也是要看有沒有客源等等那這些都在跨部會的討論當中那剛剛應該前面有委員有問到然後可以問具體一點"},{"start":233.727,"end":254.902,"text":"我們現在跨部會的一個針對這個平潭到臺灣的這個海運的客運復航我們有沒有定一個時間點要召集各部會來做討論這個部分因為航運是交通部在主管所以會由交通部這邊來所以我們收到通知了沒所以交通部也有來嗎"},{"start":257.221,"end":271.193,"text":"時間定了沒我想他們還沒通知之前我們自己就會木拉丹灣會開始做一些你們多久以內可以做相關的會議的討論召開會議討論我們會禁訴吧好不好直接給我一個時間多久以內有沒有辦法這樣子交通部防政司司長是包委這部分我們會跟陸委會一起禁訴來研議禁訴多久啦給一個時間啦不是禁訴一年兩年還是一個禮拜兩個禮拜"},{"start":285.375,"end":285.675,"text":"多久以內?"}]}},{"id":"151966","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151966","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bbcf6ebada7e2ea26900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e6307119193dc5b1e4eb39a2a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:53:52 - 12:07:46","影片長度":"00:13:54","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-11"},"duration":834,"end_time":"2024-05-01T12:07:46+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T11:53:52+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":945,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時53分）主席好，有請主計長。"],["主席：有請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：主計長您好。在勞動節的前夕我們看到主計總處公布了家庭財富分配統計，讓我們知道：哇！原來臺灣貧富差距竟然高達67倍，引起很大的討論。所以在這邊還是要再一次請教主計長，30年前的這個調查跟30年之後做這個調查，在統計方式上有沒有什麼差異？"],["朱主計長澤民：差異很大，因為80年做的調查是用實際問卷調查，有時候當事人、被問的人會不知道，或者可能有所隱瞞；我們這一次做的是用大數據資料，像財產就是利用財產檔、負債就是用銀行的負債，是實際的數字，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以這一份資料的調查統計結果其實是很有用的一個資料數據嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，是一個很好的……它不是調查，我跟委員報告，是用大數……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：用問卷？大數據？"],["朱主計長澤民：不是問卷，是用大數據分析出來的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以30年前可能是用家戶調查、問卷調查；30年之後是用大數據，什麼資料都撈得出來？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，所以各項資料都是根據財產檔或者銀行檔的資料，不是那一種所謂的你高興講多少就多少。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：請教一下主計長，因為間隔30年用2種不同的統計方式，照理說我們應該是要一年、一年的做嘛，這樣的調查結果有辦法做推估嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：這個我可以跟委員報告一下，因為這個存量的統計，像所得是每年的一個資料、每年有，這個存量的統計在短期內不會變化很大，我個人認為4年做一次是一個滿恰當的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以未來建議4年做一次？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，那要看未來行政院的看法以及未來主計長的看法。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：顯然主計長把這件事情視為是很重要、應該做的事嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，所以我在……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以未來您建議要如何善用這些資料做出好的政策？"],["朱主計長澤民：這個可以給各部會做各項政策的參考，這個是嗯嗯……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：嗯，我請教一下，其實我們很想得知當中變化的原因嘛，就像我剛剛講的時隔30年才做，很難推估。","那我請教，有人說遺產稅的稅率，像2009年以前最高是到50%；2009年之後就調降為統一的10%；2017年之後又重新把它拉高到10%到20%。我知道的是說，這個遺產稅的目的其實有時候是做財富重分配，站在主計長您的角度來看，從50%到10%，這當中我不曉得有沒有可能會造成前後20%家庭的財富差距過大，跟這個有沒有關係？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，全中華民國教過遺產贈與稅的只有我，在大學裡面只有我。有關遺產贈與稅要不要扣稅，在國際間、在學界就有很大的爭論，美國有時候換了政黨，有些人主張不課、有些人主張課。早期50%的時候根本沒有多少人繳，最近變成10%到20%，你講的2017年以後，那也是我接受……我也不曉得接受哪一個單位的委託，因為我接過很多委託啊！是財政部有部分採用我的意見、用這個方式，所以變成10%到20%，就是採用一個比較……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以這個可能也是很重要的原因。"],["朱主計長澤民：比較中庸的一個方式，因為財富……因為消費已經課了，所得也已經課了，對於財富要不要課？在國外、學界都有不同的爭論，所以我們的方式是比較中庸的，我認為是恰當的，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為今天是勞動節，我們也很關心世代正義，我想這個部分其實對我們來講也是一個很重要、深刻的反省，謝謝主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：請教國發會跟勞動部。"],["主席：施副主委、許次長。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：請教國發會副主委。"],["施副主任委員克和：委員好。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們今天談缺工、缺工、缺工！大家都覺得很辛苦，請教您認為這個缺工是暫時的還是未來會持續發生？"],["施副主任委員克和：跟委員報告，目前主計總處每年會有2次的短期缺工統計，規模大概都是21萬、22萬，但是臺灣未來因為少子女化跟高齡化，我們在勞動力數量上的確會有結構性的缺工。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：是，所以您也認為會趨向常態化？"],["施副主任委員克和：是。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：在這個部分如果我們的出生率持續低迷，然後您說未來缺工也會常態化、勞動人口下降，那國發會提出的解方到底是什麼？"],["施副主任委員克和：跟委員報告一下，大概分成兩個部分，一個是針對於國內勞動力的轉變，包含我們勞動力的競爭力跟素質、包含結合數位的轉型，讓我們的勞動生產力可以提高，另外國內還有一部分是如何把我們的勞動參與率拉高以及一些中高齡的就業，這個是在國內的部分。","但是有一個……從2021年開始，國發會跟相關的部會大概有五個部會，奉行政院的指示，我們有一個人口及移民政策的專案，所以我們針對外國的高階白領還有國內的藍領移工如何升格成中階的勞動力，就是外國人才的人力策略，現在已經在進行，已經進行了兩、三年。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：因為我們的人口喊2,300萬，已經喊很久了，將近20年，過去從2,000萬一直走到現在2,300萬，我們來看一下在這當中的人口結構。根據勞動部的統計，截至去年底，移工已經到達75.3萬人了，對比原住民的話，目前原住民是58.9萬，移工人數遠遠高過於臺灣原住民的總人口數，也就是說，你在街上碰到移工的機率比碰到原住民還高的意思，新住民取得身分證的人口也已經超過65萬人，所以這些年其實臺灣整個人口的結構變化算是非常的大。","但是我們要來關心到底我們的工作機會在哪裡？我們的薪資所得是否可以提高？我們看到像住宿餐飲業，其缺工率是達到7.99，我不知道勞動部是不是有其他的解法，當然你剛才有講，包括如何提高我們的生產能力等等，但是缺工率跟大量解僱的案件其實是一樣併進的，到底這個大量解僱是員工的主動離開，還是企業關門被迫的被動離開，請教一下勞動部。"],["許次長傳盛：謝謝伍委員的提問，我想大量解僱大部分的原因是因為企業，企業在經營上面可能有他特別的考量，像這次花蓮地震，我們就接到有好幾個飯店要大量解僱他的員工，類似這樣的情形，是以他企業經營的部分……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以次長您認為大量解僱有時候不只是員工主動離開，是因為薪資條件環境不滿意，也有可能是企業被迫關門離開，是不是？好，我要瞭解的原因是，因為我們看到104人力銀行的職缺越來越多，但就是招不到人，而且職缺還創歷史新高，就是找不到人！當然大家都會說到底是薪資不吸引勞工，還是工作的內容不吸引？我講一句實在話，連我找助理我都好難找，我也在檢討為什麼我找不到助理。所以這個部分我看到國發會也在示警，推估2070年的工作人口占我們總人口數的比例會低於五成，這個代表著我們的勞動力會越來越辛苦，我們的缺工也越來越辛苦。再請教一下國發會，除了示警有沒有什麼積極作為？"],["施副主任委員克和：跟委員報告，目前針對於人口的部分，如果是自然人力人口的增加，行政院有少子女化的對策方案，已經到了第二階段；此外，針對於社會移動，就是外國人才延攬的部分，就是剛才我跟你提的，從2021年開始有一個五首長的會議，針對一些移民的……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：這些政策都提出好多年了，有用嗎？"],["施副主任委員克和：目前為止，如果是針對外國人才的攬才，包含白領、僑外生跟在臺灣藍領移工的升級，其實目前績效還不錯。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，那我再請教一下經濟部跟財政部，我想要請教一下經濟部次長，今天經濟委員會正在審查中小企業發展條例的加薪減稅方案，我想請教一下次長，目前臺灣中小企業到底有多少員工數？"],["林次長全能：我今天報告提到說有1,142萬，1,142萬，我的報告裡面有提到。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：1,142萬？請教提出加薪減稅，就是過去有加薪的勞工到底有多少？"],["林次長全能：過去的這個實施因為有限制，所以加薪的勞工並不多，大概不到3,000人這樣。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：所以不到3,000人，總共有913萬的就業人口，中小企業您剛剛說一千多嘛？"],["林次長全能：對。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：今天如果說是新制，你預估會有多少能夠加薪的員工？"],["林次長全能：這個新制如果通過大院的審查之後會展延10年，這10年每年我們大概平均預估，會有高的預估跟低的預估，如果說低的話，每年大概有將近有四千多人，高的話有到一萬多，這是年輕增僱的部分，還有另外一個部分是加薪的人數，如果低估是大概五千多人，高估的話，樂觀的情況是九萬三千多人。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我其實是要問那個，因為我在3月20號的質詢，我有請財政部提出加薪減稅、如何把它的稅制優化的協助報告，結果我看到回復這麼說，適用擴大書審的中小企業有62萬家，然後他自己也說較無意願配合，因為已經享有輕稅的效果，他自己都回答說較無意願配合，那我就不懂了，這樣子要怎麼辦呢？我們講所謂的租屋補助也喊很多年了，但是效果都不好，直到最近好一點，為什麼？因為可以給老闆、房東比較好的一個稅制，也不會增加他的壓力負擔，我們要講的應該是要去想這種好的方法，去幫助員工加薪，因為既然減稅沒得減，那你就直接加薪補助可以嗎？"],["林次長全能：我想我們提出的方案是希望透過減稅的方式來處理，如果要直接補助，可能要有更嚴謹的一個評估分析才可以去做。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我希望再做一下評估分析，我們還是要聽聽看各位的報告，好不好？謝謝大家。"],["主席：謝謝伍麗華委員的質詢。緊接著我們請羅明才委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-11","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王世堅","李坤城","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","顏寬恒","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","黃秀芳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就\n「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質\n薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.80221875,"end":15.336593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.387218750000002,"end":17.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.00284375,"end":20.73659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.922218750000003,"end":39.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":39.38346875,"end":68.71221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.01596875,"end":75.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.05721875,"end":84.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.76971875000001,"end":80.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.86596875000001,"end":88.15221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.15221875,"end":88.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.62471875,"end":88.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":88.74284375,"end":89.95784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.79346875,"end":92.45534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":91.20659375000001,"end":105.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.86721875,"end":102.98534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.80784375,"end":108.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.31346875000001,"end":120.85596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.55721875,"end":115.69221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.00784375,"end":148.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.77159375000002,"end":156.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.59346875,"end":154.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.98534375,"end":157.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":157.01909375,"end":165.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.94721875000002,"end":158.63909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.07284375,"end":164.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.43971875,"end":180.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.08284375000002,"end":187.12409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.36034375,"end":191.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.00096875,"end":211.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.72784375,"end":212.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.36909375000002,"end":212.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.55034375000002,"end":214.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.76534375,"end":225.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.97034375,"end":228.50159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":228.94034375,"end":260.86784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":261.10409375,"end":274.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.60846875000004,"end":277.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":275.86971875,"end":296.06909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.71471875000003,"end":296.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.22096875,"end":310.64909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":311.10471875,"end":312.70784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.72784375000003,"end":332.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":333.37971875,"end":343.31909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.55534375,"end":347.92596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.31409375000004,"end":352.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.95471875000004,"end":356.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.90346875,"end":356.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.97096875,"end":357.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.52784375000005,"end":369.66096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":370.30221875,"end":383.63346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.08909375,"end":399.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.74909375000004,"end":420.58971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":420.67409375000005,"end":439.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":440.24909375000004,"end":448.63596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":448.97346875000005,"end":520.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":521.58659375,"end":524.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":525.3159687500001,"end":541.6172187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.12784375,"end":562.7109687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.45346875,"end":581.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":581.5434687500001,"end":584.9015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":585.27284375,"end":589.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":590.2847187500001,"end":592.7990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.27159375,"end":609.6572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":611.46284375,"end":631.6453437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":631.4934687500001,"end":634.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":635.2903437500001,"end":643.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":642.76596875,"end":642.95159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":644.06534375,"end":651.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":651.7434687500001,"end":652.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":653.78534375,"end":654.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAK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許次長"},{"start":320.118,"end":330.187,"text":"請教國發會副主委我們今天談缺工缺工缺工大家都覺得很辛苦那請教您您認為這個缺工是暫時的還是會未來持續發生"},{"start":333.587,"end":354.346,"text":"各位委員報告我們在目前每年會有兩次的那個主計總處的統計會有一個短期的缺工統計大概規模大概都是21萬、22萬但是台灣未來因為少子化、少子率化跟高齡化我們在勞動力上面的數量的確是會有結構性的一個缺工是,所以您也認為會趨向常態化"},{"start":358.461,"end":369.347,"text":"在這個部分如果我們的出生率是持續低迷然後您說未來缺工也會常態化勞動人口下降那國發會到底提出的解方是什麼"},{"start":370.616,"end":395.408,"text":"跟委員報告一下大概分成兩個部分一個是針對於國內的勞動力的一個轉變包含我們勞動力的那個競爭力跟素質包含結合數位的轉型讓我們的勞動生產力可以提高那另外國內還有一部分是我們如何把我們的勞動產業率拉高那以及我們的一些中高齡的就業這是在國內的部分但是有一個目前從2021年開始國發會跟相關的部會大概有五個部會"},{"start":400.07,"end":420.334,"text":"奉行政院的指示我們有一個人口及移民政策的專案所以我們針對於外國的高階白領還有我們在國內的藍領移工如何升格成中階的勞動力就是外國人才的人力的一個策略現在已經在進行已經進行了兩三年"},{"start":421.355,"end":439.429,"text":"因為我們的人口喊2300萬已經喊很久了啦將近20年那過去從2000萬然後一直走到現在2300萬那在這個當中其實人口的結構呢我們來看一下"},{"start":440.33,"end":461.022,"text":"我們根據勞動部的統計截至去年底移工是已經到達75.3萬人了那麼我們原住民的話來對比我們目前原住民是58.9萬也就是說移工人數呢遠遠的高過於臺灣原住民的總人口數"},{"start":462.023,"end":490.286,"text":"那就是說你在街上你碰到移工的機率比碰到原住民還高的意思那新住民人口的取得身份證的也已經超過65萬人所以這些年其實臺灣的整個人口的結構變化算是非常的大但是我們始終就是要來關心我們到底我們的工作機會在哪裡我們的薪資所得是否可以提高那我們看到像這個住宿餐飲業"},{"start":491.747,"end":492.448,"text":"請教一下我們的勞動部"},{"start":522.416,"end":541.485,"text":"謝謝委員的提問我想大量解雇大部分的原因是因為企業企業他在經營上面可能有他的特別考量像這次花蓮地震我們就接到有好幾個飯店他要這個大量解雇他的員工類似這樣的情形是以他的這個企業經營的所以"},{"start":542.605,"end":562.275,"text":"市長您認為這個大量解雇有時候不只是員工主動離開因為薪資條件環境不滿意也有可能是企業被迫關門離開是不是那我是要了解的原因是說因為我們看到104的人力銀行就是我們的職缺越來越多"},{"start":563.499,"end":589.249,"text":"但是呢就是找不到人而且這個職缺還創歷史新高就是找不到人那當然大家都會說到底是薪資不吸引我們的勞工還是工作的內容不吸引我講一句實在話啦連我找助理我都好難找我也在檢討為什麼我找不到助理所以這個部分我看到國發會也在示警嘛"},{"start":590.445,"end":608.597,"text":"推估2070年的工作人口它會占我們的總人口數的比例會低於五成低於五成這個代表著我們的勞動力會越來越辛苦我們的缺工也越來越辛苦那國發會再請教一下除了市井有沒有什麼積極作為"},{"start":611.459,"end":612.28,"text":"那這些政策都提出好多年了有用嗎?"},{"start":635.319,"end":637.981,"text":"我再請教一下經濟部跟財政部因為時間的關係抱歉我想要請教一下經濟部次長"},{"start":655.385,"end":682.654,"text":"今天我們的經濟委員會正在審查中小企業發展條例的加薪減稅方案我想請教一下次長目前台灣中小企業到底有多少員工數我今天報告提到說有一千一百四十二萬一千一百四十二萬我的報告裡面有一千一百四十二萬那請教那提出這個加薪減稅就是過去有加薪的勞工到底有多少"},{"start":684.279,"end":709.547,"text":"過去的實施因為它有限制所以加薪勞工並不多應該大概不到3000人這樣子所以嘛不到3000人總共有913萬的就業人口那中小企業您剛剛說1000多嘛那好今天如果說新制你預估你預估會有多少能夠加薪的員工"},{"start":710.615,"end":726.355,"text":"我想這個新制是會展．如果通過大院的審查之後．會展延10年．這10年每年我們大概平均預估．會有高的預估跟低的預估．如果說低的話每年大概有將近4000多人．"},{"start":727.777,"end":743.174,"text":"有大概一萬多人這是對年輕的徵雇的部分還有另外一個部分是加薪的人數如果低估是大概五千多人那高估的話高估的一個熱觀情況是九萬三千多人我其實是要問"},{"start":744.595,"end":768.953,"text":"因為我在3月20號的質詢我有請財政部就是要提出一個加薪減稅如何把它的稅制優化協助的報告結果我看到回覆這麼說他說適用擴大書省的中小企業家有62萬家然後自己也說他說較無意願配合因為已經享有清稅的效果自己都回答說"},{"start":770.461,"end":792.256,"text":"教育意願配合那我就不懂了那這樣子怎麼辦呢我是在想我們講所謂的租屋補助租屋補助也喊很多年了那效果都不好直到最近好一點為什麼因為可以給老闆房東比較好的一個稅制也不會增加他的壓力負擔"},{"start":793.277,"end":804.569,"text":"那我們要講的是說應該是要去想這種好的方法去幫助員工加薪因為既然減稅沒得減啊那你就直接加薪補助可以嗎"},{"start":809.662,"end":824.292,"text":"我們提出的方案是希望透過減稅的方式來處理那如果要直接補助可能要有更嚴謹的一個評估分析才可以那我希望再做一下評估分析我們還是要聽聽看各位的報告好不好好謝謝大家謝謝吳麗華委員的質詢請接著我們請羅文明財委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"151965","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151965","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bcab2943b409e6827900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e6307119193af37138b611437b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃珊珊","委員發言時間":"11:42:32 - 11:53:39","影片長度":"00:11:07","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-11"},"duration":667,"end_time":"2024-05-01T11:53:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T11:42:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":866,"blocks":[["黃委員珊珊：（11時42分）謝謝主席，我想請主計長，還有勞動部次長。"],["主席：主計長、許次長請。"],["黃委員珊珊：財政部次長，國發會副主委。"],["主席：次長請、副主委請。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["黃委員珊珊：主計長，今天是勞動節喔，我給大家看一個12年前的一個新聞，12年前的4月30號，12年前那時候是國民黨執政。當時的民主進步黨立法院黨團開了一個記者會說「5月1號勞動節，臺灣的勞工越忙越窮，長工時、低工資、過勞死，要求凍漲電價，調漲基本工資、降低工時、落實勞工檢查」，12年過去了，我們現在在立法院講的話跟12年前差不多，只是物換星移，換了一個黨執政，這8年狀況依舊如此，立法院依舊在要求凍漲電價、調漲基本工資、降低工時、落實勞動檢查。次長，勞動部今天要對勞工說些什麼？12年過去了，這些問題為什麼還繼續存在？"],["許次長傳盛：好，謝謝黃委員的質詢，我想針對基本工資或是最低工資，這8年來其實我們有……"],["黃委員珊珊：你們做了很多努力，但是你們滿意嗎？跟12年前比起來，你看看喔！100年度實質經常性薪資較99年度增加15塊，所以被罵到翻掉。同樣的，我今天要問的是台電，從4月起電價調漲了11%，高鐵便當漲了10%，黑松沙士漲了25%，物價齊漲，然後主計總處這邊的2月份CPI預估1.85已經調升到2.03，經濟成長率目前大概預估是3.43，主計長，對吧？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["黃委員珊珊：所以基本工資法已經通過了，4月份要針對這部分做個評估報告，請問勞動部次長，你們的報告如何？基本工資法實施之後，對於經濟跟就業狀況的影響，報告出來了嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：有，我們現在已經請學者專家都已經整理好了。"],["黃委員珊珊：已經整理好了，狀況怎樣，你要在這邊回答我，不是整理好。基本工資的實施對於就業狀況的提升有沒有影響？沒有？"],["許次長傳盛：我們現在的基本工資已改為最低工資啦。"],["黃委員珊珊：是。"],["許次長傳盛：那最低工資的部分，我們會找學者專家組成一個……"],["黃委員珊珊：你現在要告訴我，你4月份的報告已經出來了，今天5月1號，你的報告還沒看過嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：我跟委員報告，現在這部分初步提出來之後，現在還要再整理相關……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以沒有辦法今天回答我？今天是勞動節，你要怎麼樣給勞工一個答案？第二個，主計長，剛剛講的這些東西，前面很多委員都在討論，所以目前為止，現在看起來我們公布的新鮮人薪水，包括我們的職場新鮮人，你們112年初任人員的薪資表，新鮮人大概15萬6,000人，領基本工資的就是剛剛講23%，也就是每四個人就有一個人領基本工資，主計長，這是事實吧？"],["朱主計長澤民：這個是……"],["黃委員珊珊：大學畢業生出社會第一件工作，有四分之一的人領基本工資，是嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：因為我們的統計並沒有分什麼畢業，我們是……"],["黃委員珊珊：沒有，這是初任人員的薪資統計結果，大概就是職場新鮮人啦！好，第二個，專科或大學畢業生的薪資中位數目前是3萬，也就是說有一半的大學畢業生薪水是低於3萬塊的，目前為止，是不是這樣？"],["朱主計長澤民：大概是這個數字。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，跟12年前有什麼兩樣？沒什麼兩樣！"],["朱主計長澤民：我必須跟委員報告一下，我們的基本工資這幾年是每年幾乎有……"],["黃委員珊珊：每年都有調漲，但是新鮮人的薪水還是一樣，主計長，你調漲沒錯啊，但是整體薪資沒有漲，再講一次，主計總處2月19號公布的薪資統計，全體的受僱員工所有的勞工剔除物價因素後，去年實際的經常性薪資只有4萬1,334元，年減0.05%，也就是連3年的負成長，對吧？這總是對的吧？"],["朱主計長澤民：可是今年2月已經變成正成長了，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：好，所以3年負成長是事實，實際總薪資是5萬3,189塊，年減度也是1.04%，更是7年來首次的負成長，也就是102年以來的最大減幅。各位，剛剛講的，對，我們基本工資在調漲，但是我們實質薪資相對的在減少。"],["朱主計長澤民：我必須跟委員報告一下，最近8年來，我們的實質總薪資是增加了四千多塊，到相對於前面一個8年只有增加……"],["黃委員珊珊：所以我現在只跟你比102年，也就是說，剛剛講的蔡英文總統上任109年實質薪資是4萬1,437塊，到112年倒退到4萬1,334塊，其實是減少了103塊。剛剛講，12年前民主進步黨因為只增加15塊，把當時的執政黨罵翻，現在12年後，我們的薪資在109年到112年減少了103塊，這是值得驕傲的嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，我們的經常性薪資8年是有增加了……"],["黃委員珊珊：我現在跟你講109年到112年。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，因為你取的那一段是剛好是下跌的，我們是取8年比較長的。"],["黃委員珊珊：如果109年到112年，我們不斷在調漲，然後又下降了，那是怎麼回事呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，那個是物價的上漲，因為國際……"],["黃委員珊珊：因為物價吃掉了薪水。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，是因為俄烏戰爭物價上升，但是長期……"],["黃委員珊珊：主計長，我都知道你要講什麼，但是我們今天是勞動節……"],["朱主計長澤民：因為委員只有取那一段的時間……"],["黃委員珊珊：大家不要再掩住自己的眼睛了，好嗎？來，勞動部次長，你要怎麼回應這樣的狀況？"],["許次長傳盛：我想我們勞動部有提出很多鼓勵青年加值計畫，包括鼓勵他去考證……"],["黃委員珊珊：今天是勞動節，大家希望的是看到實質薪資不斷的調漲。最後一個問題，接下去，明年有沒有可能基本薪資有機會調漲3%？因為GDP明年的預估大概是3%。"],["許次長傳盛：跟黃委員報告，因為現在是變成最低工資，有關最低工資，我們會有一個審議委員會，他會考量諸多的因素，包括物價……"],["黃委員珊珊：也考量物價，也考量經濟成長。"],["許次長傳盛：對、對、對。"],["黃委員珊珊：這兩個是臺灣重要的事情。"],["許次長傳盛：當然。"],["黃委員珊珊：薪資很重要。"],["許次長傳盛：是。"],["黃委員珊珊：不是只是12年前講的話，12年後，我們坐在這裡講的依然是一樣的話。好。","接下來，我想問一下主計長，新的主計長陳淑姿也是您推薦的嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我跟委員報告一下，賴總統認識他比我認識他還久，他不必我推薦……"],["黃委員珊珊：對，但是你對他應該很瞭解。"],["朱主計長澤民：他不必我推薦、他不必我推薦！"],["黃委員珊珊：他的主張你應該很瞭解吧？"],["朱主計長澤民：他從二十幾歲就當主計人員，當到65歲退休，是根正苗紅的主計人員……"],["黃委員珊珊：更重要的就是說……"],["朱主計長澤民：他是很適當的主計長人選，謝謝。"],["黃委員珊珊：我同意啊！新的主計長曾經在民國97年寫了一個碩士論文，他原來也是臺南市的主計長，然後他在臺南的確也把臺南的債務降債、減少百億，也達到了零舉債，這是一件好事。","主計長，你自己在學界的時候曾經也說過我們政府的財政垂直不均，希望能夠把所得稅、貨物稅提供適當的比例給地方，這是朱主計長以前的主張，對吧？"],["朱主計長澤民：我跟委員報告一下，現在財劃法的分配比例是我當時候……"],["黃委員珊珊：您已經改善很多了。"],["朱主計長澤民：接受財政部委託，財政部也採用了部分的意見，我感到很榮幸！"],["黃委員珊珊：所以主計長我想……你看陳淑姿在97年說得很清楚，因為地方政府都有一樣的痛，財劃法要儘快修法，1999年到現在每次闖關都沒有過。陳淑姿主計長提出要修財劃法、賴清德總統在臺南市長任內也主張要修財劃法，我想請問一下，接下來的行政院有沒有要修財劃法？還是您要卸任了所以你不知道？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我……"],["黃委員珊珊：接下來的財政部次長要不要回答我這個問題？"],["阮次長清華：財劃法是一個非常政治化的問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：是。"],["阮次長清華：我在想財劃法這一部分，基本上……"],["黃委員珊珊：我現在就跟您說，我們民眾黨已經提出來了，我相信各黨團都會提出來，而且這件事情──財劃法在蔡英文總統8年任期內沒有提出一個版本，這是令我比較遺憾的，因為每一個政黨至少在歷年來，從87年到101年大家都爭取過很多啊，可是過去8年沒有主張過！我只想知道財政部接下去對於財政收支劃分法有沒有想法、有沒有未來的規劃？"],["阮次長清華：有！"],["黃委員珊珊：因為部長會留任，部長接下去必須統籌全國財政的分配，這個部分是不是財政部要給我們一個初步的回答？"],["阮次長清華：是，基本上是這樣子，財劃法也要考慮到中央財政的問題。"],["黃委員珊珊：當然！"],["阮次長清華：另外也要兼顧到地方的財政，所以這部分我們一直……"],["黃委員珊珊：我現在就唸97年主計長的主張，他說：財劃法要儘速修法，確立地方實質財源只增不減的原則，要擴大中央統籌分配稅款的規模，包括朱主計長之前的主張，貨物稅、所得稅應該提撥一定比例給地方；第二個部分，財劃法遲遲未修法，導致地方財源短缺、舉債瀕臨上限，甚至連公共債務法都應該一併檢討。這部分請財政部及未來的部長，我們也希望你們在這個內容裡面可以跟新的主計長大家一起討論財劃法的修正。"],["阮次長清華：是，我們會來努力！謝謝委員指教。"],["黃委員珊珊：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝黃珊珊委員的質詢。我們待會12點就不休息，開放用餐。","緊接著請伍麗華委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-11","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王世堅","李坤城","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","顏寬恒","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","黃秀芳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就\n「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質\n薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.06471875,"end":0.11534375000000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.11534375000000001,"end":0.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.4653437500000002,"end":2.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.0515937500000003,"end":3.7434687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":3.99659375,"end":4.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.000343750000001,"end":7.5572187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.459093750000001,"end":14.83034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.302843750000001,"end":20.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.972843750000003,"end":21.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.49159375,"end":25.039718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.44471875,"end":26.153468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.254718750000002,"end":29.157218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.190968750000003,"end":32.26221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.36346875,"end":40.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.13846875,"end":46.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.23034375,"end":52.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.085968750000006,"end":56.12346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.76471875,"end":57.540968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.24971875000001,"end":60.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.612218750000004,"end":63.210968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.447218750000005,"end":66.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.09659375000001,"end":67.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.61096875,"end":69.89346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.37846875000001,"end":72.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.57221875,"end":76.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.35221875,"end":82.92096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.22471875000001,"end":85.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.55784375,"end":87.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.66284375000001,"end":99.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.67971875,"end":88.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.69471875,"end":102.76596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.45784375000001,"end":105.95534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.42784375000001,"end":110.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.16971875,"end":116.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.16034375000001,"end":121.21034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":121.63221875,"end":122.00346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.49284375,"end":123.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.42096875000001,"end":127.35284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.74096875000001,"end":137.08971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.17409375,"end":140.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.90346875,"end":140.92034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.92034375,"end":144.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.39284375,"end":141.44346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.46034375000002,"end":141.56159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.81409375,"end":146.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.05034375,"end":147.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.08409375000002,"end":146.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.45096875000002,"end":151.73721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.55221875,"end":148.63221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.07471875000002,"end":152.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.08284375000002,"end":161.67659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.29284375,"end":165.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.25346875000002,"end":171.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.83534375000002,"end":175.81784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":174.16409375,"end":175.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.85159375,"end":175.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.02034375000002,"end":183.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":183.49596875,"end":187.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.45721875,"end":191.66346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.79409375,"end":193.35096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.99221875,"end":201.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.29471875000002,"end":209.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.78721875000002,"end":217.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.12784375,"end":222.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.98784375000002,"end":227.42159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.45534375000003,"end":227.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.13034375,"end":233.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.81721875000002,"end":238.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.71096875,"end":240.11159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":240.44909375,"end":242.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01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主席長我想今天是勞動節那我給大家看一個12年前的一個新聞12年前的4月30號也就是12年前那時候是國民黨執政當時的民主進入黨的立法院黨團開了一個記者會說5月1號勞動節臺灣的勞工越忙越窮長工時低工資過勞死"},{"start":41.292,"end":66.642,"text":"要求動漲電價．調漲基本工資．降低工時．落實勞工檢查十二年過去了．我們現在在立法院講的話．跟十二年前差不多．只是勿換心儀．換了一個黨執政．這八年．狀況依舊如此．立法院依舊在要求動漲電價．調漲基本工資．降低工時．落實勞動檢查次長、勞動部"},{"start":71.431,"end":98.792,"text":"今天要對勞工說些什麼?這12年過去的這些問題為什麼還繼續存在?好,謝謝黃委員的質詢。我想,針對基本工資或是最低工資,這8年來其實我們有不斷的上升。你們做了很多努力,但是你們滿意嗎?因為12年前比起來,你看看喔,100年度實質經常性薪資較99年度增加15塊,所以被罵到翻掉。同樣的,我今天要問的是,"},{"start":99.733,"end":104.877,"text":"台電從4月起電價調漲了11%高鐵便當漲了10%黑松沙士漲了25%物價起漲然後主計總處這邊的CPI2月份預估1.85已經調升到2.03經濟成長率目前大概預估是3.43對吧主計長對"},{"start":122.56,"end":144.514,"text":"所以基本工資法已經通過了4月份要針對這個做個評估報告請問勞動部次長你們報告如何基本工資法實施之後對於經濟跟就業狀況的影響報告出來了嗎我們現在已經請學者專家都已經整理好了已經整理好了狀況怎樣你要在這邊回答我啊不是整理好啊"},{"start":146.371,"end":165.156,"text":"基本工資對於實施的就業狀況有沒有提升有沒有改影響沒有我們現在這個基本工資改為最低工資那最低工資的部分呢我們會找學者專家組成一個你現在要告訴我你4月份報告已經出來了今天是5月1號啦你的報告還沒看過嗎"},{"start":169.328,"end":191.307,"text":"我跟委員報告我們現在這部分初步提出來之後現在還要再整理相關所以沒有辦法今天回答我今天是勞動節你要怎麼樣給勞工一個答案第二個主計長剛剛講的這些東西前面很多委員都在討論所以目前為止現在看起來我們公布的新鮮人的"},{"start":192.847,"end":194.068,"text":"主計長,這是事實吧?"},{"start":212.169,"end":219.193,"text":"大學畢業生出社會第一件事情有四分之一的人領基本工資是嗎?沒有這是出任人員的薪資統計結果大概就是職場新鮮人啦"},{"start":228.186,"end":241.208,"text":"好 第二個專科或大學畢業生的薪資中位數目前是3萬也就是說有一半的大學畢業生薪水是低於3萬塊的目前為止是不是這樣大概是這個數字"},{"start":246.709,"end":262.914,"text":"我必須跟那個委員報告一下我們的基本工資這幾年是每年幾乎有調漲每年都有調漲但是新鮮人的薪水還是一樣啊主計長你調漲沒錯啊但是整體薪資沒有漲再講一次主計總處2月19號公布的薪資統計全體的受僱員工所有的勞工"},{"start":266.315,"end":281.184,"text":"替除物價因素後．去年的實際的經常性薪資只有41334元．年減0.05%．也就是連三年的負成長對吧這種是對的吧可是以今年二月已經變成正成長了謝謝"},{"start":282.165,"end":282.385,"text":"各位,剛剛講的"},{"start":297.945,"end":314.463,"text":"對,我們基本公司在調漲但是我們的實質薪資相對的在減少我必須跟委員報告一下最近8年來我們的實質總薪資是增加了4千多塊相對於前面一個8年只有增加了19塊所以我現在只跟你比啊102年啊也就是說剛剛講的"},{"start":318.107,"end":324.07,"text":"蔡英文總統上任的109年的實質薪資是41437塊到112年倒退到41334塊其實是減少了103塊剛剛講12年前民主進步黨因為只增加15塊把當時的執政黨罵翻現在12年後我們的薪資還到在109年到112年減少了103塊"},{"start":348.241,"end":368.264,"text":"這是值得驕傲的嗎?我們的經常性薪資8年是有增加啦我現在跟你講109年到112年對,因為你取的那一段是剛好是下跌的我們是取8年比較長的如果109年到112年我們不斷的在調漲然後又下降了那是怎麼回事呢?"},{"start":368.824,"end":387.001,"text":"對那個是物價的上漲因為物價吃掉了薪水是因為貨物戰爭那個物價但是長期的話我都知道你要講什麼但是因為是勞動節大家不要再掩住自己的眼睛了好嗎來勞動部市長你要怎麼回應這樣的狀況"},{"start":389.176,"end":409.511,"text":"我想我們勞動部有提出很多鼓勵青年加值計畫包括鼓勵他去考政法今天是勞動節大家希望的是看到實質薪資不斷的調漲最後一個問題接下去明年我們有沒有可能基本薪資有機會調漲3%因為GDP明年的預估大概是3%"},{"start":410.877,"end":433.98,"text":"跟黃委員報告因為現在是變成最低工資那最低工資我們會有一個審議委員會會考量諸多的因素包括物價也考量經濟成長這兩個是臺灣重要的事情薪資很重要不是只是12年前講的話12年後我們坐在這裡講的意外是一樣的話好接下來我想問一下請主計長"},{"start":436.373,"end":450.644,"text":"這個新的主計長陳淑芝也是您推薦的嗎那個是我跟委員報告一下蔡總統認識她比我認識她還近她不必我推薦她不必我推薦她不必我推薦她的主張你應該很了解吧"},{"start":452.598,"end":465.569,"text":"我當然他是從這個20幾歲就當主計人員到65歲退休是更正苗紅的主計人員來這邊就是更重要就是說他會確認你的工作他是一個很適當的主計長的人選謝謝"},{"start":468.832,"end":485.892,"text":"我同意啊就是新的主計長他曾經在民國97年寫了一個碩士論文他原來也是台南市的主計長然後在台南他的確也把台南的債務降債減少百億也達到了領取債這是一件好事"},{"start":486.713,"end":505.945,"text":"那主計長你自己在學界的時候曾經也說過我們政府的財政垂直不均然後希望能夠把所得稅、貨物稅提供適當的比例給地方這是在朱主計長你以前的主張對吧那個我跟委員報告一下現在的財化法那個分配比例是我當時候"},{"start":506.886,"end":523.831,"text":"您已經改善很多了對接受財政部委託財政部也採用了部分的意見我看到很榮幸所以主計長我想你看陳淑芝在97年說得很清楚因為地方政府都有一樣的痛財化法要盡快修法1999年到現在我們其實每次闖關每次都沒有過"},{"start":529.092,"end":545.258,"text":"陳淑芝主計長提出要修財化法賴清德總統在台南市長任內也主張要修財化法我想請問一下接下來的行政院有沒有要修財化法還是您要卸任了所以你不知道那接下來的財政部次長要不要回答我這個問題"},{"start":548.841,"end":564.574,"text":"財化法是一個非常政治化的問題是那我在想說財化法這一部分我想基本上我現在就跟您說我們民眾黨已經提出來了我相信各黨團都會提出來"},{"start":565.154,"end":576.369,"text":"而且這件事情財化法的版本在蔡英文總統八年任期內沒有提出一個版本是令我比較遺憾的因為至少在每一個政黨在歷年來從87年到101年"},{"start":580.214,"end":602.957,"text":"大家都爭取過很多可是過去8年沒有主張過我只想知道財政部接下去對於財政收支劃分法有沒有想法有沒有未來的規劃因為部長會留任部長接下去他必須要統籌全國財政的分配這個部分是不是"},{"start":603.838,"end":632.896,"text":"財政部要給我們一個初步的回答基本上是這樣子我們財劃法是這樣子基本上也要考慮到中央的財政的問題當然另外也要兼顧到地方的財政來我現在就念97年主計長他的主張他說財劃法要進行修法確立地方實質財源只增不減的原則要擴大中央統籌分配稅款的規模包括剛剛主計長朱主計長之前的主張貨物稅、所得稅應該提撥一定的比例給地方"},{"start":634.517,"end":653.033,"text":"財化法、知識維修法導致地方財源短缺、舉債瀕臨上限甚至連公共債務法都應該一併檢討這部分請財政部就未來的部長我們也希望你們在這個內容裡面可以跟新的主計長大家一起討論財化法的收支是,我們會來努力,會來努力謝謝,謝謝委員執教"},{"start":656.317,"end":663.394,"text":"好 謝謝黃珊珊委員的質詢我們待會12點就不休息開放用餐緊接著我們請吳立華委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"151964","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151964","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bf786b93e4d9f6e85900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e630711919db806415cfe579a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:30:35 - 11:42:25","影片長度":"00:11:50","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-11"},"duration":710,"end_time":"2024-05-01T11:42:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T11:30:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":811,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時30分）謝謝主席，我先請主計長。"],["主席：有請主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：主計長早。主計長，我之前請問您我們要在4月底公布家庭財富所得的差距。"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["王委員鴻薇：我當時還太低估了，我說時隔30年，會不會超過20倍？你說還在計算，那時候我在想一定大於20倍；沒有想到，時隔30年，我們臺灣家庭財富的差距可以說是越來越大，而且真的是超乎原來我們的想像。根據你們所公布的資料，你可以看到，這是聯合報所做圖片，臺灣真的是一個……"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，這個是我們做的。"],["王委員鴻薇：這是你們做的圖片？好。做得很好，但是這裡面其實充分地說明，我們的貧富差距是如此之大，而且絕大部分的家庭事實上都在金字塔的底層，我們家庭財富的平均數是1,638萬，結果有七成的家庭根本沒有達到！所以就可以看到在整個金字塔上端的財富，事實上真的掌握臺灣主要的財富。","我們可以看到，整個前20%家庭的財富超過5,000萬，而後20%家庭的財富是77萬。我覺得他們的占比讓大家覺得更為驚訝，後20%的家庭占總體財富連1%都不到，然後前20%家庭的財富占臺灣總體財富超過六成。請教一下主計長，你那天也講這是你的使命，當你看到這樣的數字、結果的時候，你自己有沒有覺得非常驚訝，覺得臺灣……"],["朱主計長澤民：我沒有驚訝，因為這個數目字跟其他國家比較起來，是其他國家的……我甚至講，您這個表上所謂的後1%、就是1的那個，在德國是負的，在美國也是負的，可是它用1塊錢來表示，就是最低的20%在其他有些國家是負的。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以主計長，我們比爛就是了？"],["朱主計長澤民：我沒有比爛，我們國際間沒有比爛，只是把數目字比較起來去給大家看……"],["王委員鴻薇：你覺得這樣子的結果很OK？"],["朱主計長澤民：一般的人沒有這個最高、最低……"],["王委員鴻薇：你覺得這樣的結果很OK？我們貧富差距能夠拉到這麼大，你覺得很OK？"],["朱主計長澤民：我沒有說很OK，我沒有說很OK，我只是說我們前面……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們後20%家庭的財富可以再少一點，他們已經很多了，是這個意思嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們前面20%占整體財富的比率並沒有比國外的高，一般國外都是只公布前20%，沒有最高跟最低在比較，因為我剛才講，最低如果是負的話，或者是1塊錢的話，差距根本不能比，所以它根本沒有最高跟最低在比較，是我們國內……"],["王委員鴻薇：我們跟我們自己比嘛！我們30年前是16.8倍，當時大家就覺得這個差距已經非常、非常地明顯；現在差了66.9倍，然後我們說沒關係，相比美國、澳洲，我們沒有什麼關係。請問一下……"],["朱主計長澤民：我沒有說沒有什麼關係，這個是拿一個資料出來給大家參考。"],["王委員鴻薇：這不是參考，這是說明我們的貧富差距如此之大，參考什麼！政府政策是孰令致之？好，所以時間暫停一下……"],["朱主計長澤民：這個我必須講，財富重分配如果是……"],["王委員鴻薇：你不用講了啦！胡扯！不要講了！時間暫停！聽不下去了！","我再請財政部次長、經濟部次長跟國發會副主委。"],["主席：有請阮次、林次、施副主委。"],["王委員鴻薇：主計長，我沒有請你回去喔。主席，我有請主計長回去嗎？"],["主席：主計長，請旁邊稍候一下。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：我先請財政部。在這個數字出來之後，我們看到一些學者專家認為臺灣的貧富差距之所以拉大，主要是稅制的問題，請問一下次長，你同意嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，雖然是說財富分配有擴大，但是就納稅來講，我們現在繳稅其實還是高所得者在繳稅，比如現在綜合所得稅占最高的、占40%的大概0.86%，但是他繳的稅占了大概將近45%……"],["王委員鴻薇：好，綜合所得稅大部分來自於什麼所得呢？"],["阮次長清華：當然，各種所得都有，每一個都會……"],["王委員鴻薇：薪資所得占多少？"],["阮次長清華：有薪資所得，也有股利所有。"],["王委員鴻薇：薪資所得占多少？"],["阮次長清華：我現在手上沒有這個資料，是不是會後……"],["王委員鴻薇：怎麼會沒有資料？你來這邊沒有資料？"],["阮次長清華：我會後再……"],["王委員鴻薇：這個數字很多人都滾瓜爛熟了，我們大概七成來自於薪資所得。"],["阮次長清華：我是不是請宋署長跟你說明一下？"],["王委員鴻薇：不要講了，我都知道，大概七成來自於薪資所得。所以很多的學者專家認為，今天要讓我們的貧富差距能夠拉平有兩種手段，一種就是稅制，另外一種手段事實上就是社會福利，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對，沒錯。"],["王委員鴻薇：一般學者專家都會認為有這兩種手段。社會福利是一種比較屬於用補助的方式，但是在稅制上，不可諱言地，在我們所得稅裡面，對資本所得課稅太少，而對一般上班族的薪資課稅太重，因為我們主要的所得稅稅源來自於薪資所得，所以很多人會認為在稅制上是不是可以做一些改變？比如有人提到要不要復徵證所稅的問題，我個人認為，我們過去每一次去課徵證所稅，其實最後都無疾而終，它在技術上或政治上的效應太大。"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["王委員鴻薇：但是我們能不能夠在整個綜合所得稅裡面不要這麼完全地仰賴薪資所得？個事實上是可以去改善、可以檢討的，不能嗎？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，雖然薪資所得占了大概七成，但是它的納稅占比大概51%到55%左右，所以基本上還是其他的高所得、其他的所得在繳稅，這是第一點。"],["王委員鴻薇：稅制事實上是可以，其實我們確實還是可以檢討。來，時間暫停一下，我請國發會副主委。"],["主席：施副主委請。"],["施副主任委員克和：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：副主委，看到這個數字，現在全臺灣的貧富差距這麼大，我們的財富如此地集中，就國發會的角色來說，有沒有辦法可以再做些什麼政策上的修正及改變，讓我們的貧富差距不會像國外……我們去比國外，國外那個就是不對呀！所以才會造成……以前華爾街不是就這樣子嗎？1%的人擁有99%的財富，我們要像這樣子嗎？所以剛剛主計長的說法，我完全沒有辦法接受啊！搞什麼鬼啊，我們要跟美國去學習嗎？時間有限。對國發會來說，在解決或改善家庭貧富差距上，我們還有些什麼手段？"],["施副主任委員克和：跟委員報告，如同剛剛委員所提到的，在主計總處這次的財富調查，平常是所得面，如同剛剛委員所提到的，除了在政府移轉收入（就是社福政策）或是移轉支出的部分（租稅的政策）去做調整之外，剛才提到我們的所得結構有營利所得、資本所得及薪資所得，事實上根據學界的一些討論及正在討論的，資本利得基本上包含交易或持有的部分的確在稅制上面可以做討論的。"],["王委員鴻薇：我覺得我們現在的稅制真的太完全集中在一些薪資所得。然後我們看下一頁，這個其實就是我們今天專題報告的重點，也就是我們受僱人員的報酬占GDP的比率，因為我們就是認為它偏低，所以事實上也使得很多年輕人、使得很多原來是以薪資、受僱者為主的家庭，他沒有觸及資本利得、他沒有去玩股票、他沒有錢去買房，而這些族群要去累積財富就非常的困難，所以臺灣就變成怎麼樣呢？跟國外一樣錢滾錢，錢滾錢很容易，但是你用勞力所得去累積你的財富就非常的困難，你就會落在後段班，而你完全沒有辦法供養，所以這就是我們今天的報告裡面為什麼希望能夠做一些改善，對於薪資所得者、對受僱者能不能再多照顧一些？好，其實今天還有一個訊息，就是我們一直說希望能夠提高工資，但是我們大學畢業生每四人就有一個人是領基本工資，而且即便他已經做了一年，還是有很多人，他的薪水還在領基本工資，所以他如何去累積財富呢？這才是我們今天為什麼要有這樣的一個專題報告，而這樣的趨勢就會讓很多年輕人變成什麼呢？躺平族！我沒有辦法再努力了，我也不敢去結婚，我也沒有辦法去生小孩，我也不會買房子，我甚至連車子都沒有辦法買，就像那個日本一樣，臺灣也越來越多會變成這樣，所以為什麼今天我要特別提到我肯定主計處時隔30年願意做一個財富調查報告，但是我完全不肯定剛才主計長的態度，說這不過是參考而已，參考什麼？如果只是請你看看而已，那有什麼好做的呢？這叫做什麼使命呢？所以我才希望我們各部會能把這個調查跟我們今天的報告做一個連結。","我剛剛就在講，如果今天我們對資本利得在整個稅制上沒有辦法去做一些改變，那麼臺灣變成一個錢滾錢、錢賺錢的時代，我們今天是五一勞動節，今天就是五一勞動節喔，我們對於廣大的勞工，他用薪資所得，他是受僱人員，我們是對不起他們的，好不好？請你們真的正視這兩個問題。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員質詢。接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-11","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王世堅","李坤城","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","顏寬恒","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","黃秀芳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就\n「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質\n薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.19096875,"end":11.539718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.72971875,"end":12.113468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.332843750000002,"end":25.84971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.934093750000002,"end":35.080343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.05909375,"end":42.72471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.02846875,"end":45.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":44.159093750000004,"end":46.63971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.63971875,"end":49.086593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.88846875,"end":48.61409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.031593750000006,"end":50.84159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.195968750000006,"end":63.852218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.54409375,"end":69.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.77534375,"end":73.38659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.69034375000001,"end":75.73221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.06971875,"end":84.47346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.32971875000001,"end":90.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.85221875,"end":93.73784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.97409375000001,"end":102.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.93471875,"end":108.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.89159375000001,"end":113.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.39284375000001,"end":126.76221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.76221875,"end":154.01534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.39096875,"end":156.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":156.12471875,"end":169.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.14159375,"end":156.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.77846875,"end":163.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.39346875,"end":180.35721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":171.86909375000002,"end":176.45909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.01596875,"end":199.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.00409375,"end":217.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.18909375,"end":203.50971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":215.44034375,"end":221.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.70534375000003,"end":228.29909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.02471875,"end":230.00346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.45909375000002,"end":230.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.37034375000002,"end":232.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.97346875000002,"end":234.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":233.31096875000003,"end":234.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":234.96471875,"end":235.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.63971875000001,"end":238.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":235.72409375,"end":236.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.66471875000002,"end":237.96846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.55909375000002,"end":239.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.19596875000002,"end":240.90471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.06909375,"end":242.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.29659375000003,"end":244.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.29221875000002,"end":247.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":246.13596875000002,"end":246.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":246.15284375000002,"end":246.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.34659375,"end":249.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.06784375,"end":252.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.08471875,"end":252.07596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.81846875000002,"end":253.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.37909375000004,"end":258.28596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.00346875,"end":257.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.69534375,"end":257.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.53909375,"end":259.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.50096875,"end":259.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.51784375,"end":259.55159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.55159375,"end":261.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":259.60221875,"end":259.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":260.17596875000004,"end":262.47096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.96846875,"end":265.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.53784375000004,"end":266.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.19596875,"end":268.41096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":268.86659375,"end":270.92534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.21221875000003,"end":279.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":279.27846875,"end":283.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":284.17221875,"end":286.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":286.50096875,"end":311.189093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個用補助的方式但是我們在稅制上我們不可諱言的"},{"start":369.011,"end":390.746,"text":"在我們所得稅裡面對資本所得科稅太少而對薪資一般的上班族科稅太重因為我們主要的所得稅的稅源來自於我們的薪資所得所以在這樣的一個很多人會認為說我們在稅制上是不是可以做一些改變比如說有人會提到這個應該要不要複徵證所稅的問題"},{"start":395.689,"end":420.349,"text":"當然我個人對於因為我們過去每一次去科證所稅其實最後都無疾而終它在技術上或它在政治上的效應太大但是我們能不能夠在整個的綜合所得稅裡面不要這麼完全的仰賴薪資所得這個事上是可以去改善可以檢討的不能嗎?"},{"start":422.17,"end":441.794,"text":"我跟委員報告我們雖然新生所得是佔了大概七成就所得的佔七成但是他的納稅他佔比大概百分之五十一到百分之五十五左右所以其他的還是基本上還是其他的高所得其他的所得在繳稅稅制事上是可以其實我們確實還是可以去檢討來時間暫停一下我請國發會的副主委"},{"start":448.956,"end":451.3,"text":"看到這個數字現在全台灣的貧富差距這麼大然後"},{"start":458.908,"end":487.338,"text":"我們的財富如此的集中那麼救國發會的角色來說有沒有辦法可以再做些什麼政策上的修正跟改變讓我們的貧富差距不會像國外我們去比國外國外這個就是不對啊所以才會造成以前華爾街不就這樣子嗎百分之一的人有百分之九十九的財富我們要像這樣子嗎所以剛剛主計長的說法我完全沒有辦法接受啊"},{"start":488.098,"end":501.339,"text":"高什麼鬼啊我們要跟美國去學習嗎好時間有限對國發會來說在我們要去解決或者是改善我們家庭這個貧富差距我們還有些什麼手段"},{"start":502.199,"end":530.455,"text":"跟委員報告,如同委員剛所提到的在主總的這次的調查是財富的調查那平常是我們所得面那所得面如同剛委員所提到的在政府移轉的收入就是社福的政策或是移轉支出的部分租稅的政策去做調整之外剛才所提到的我們的所得結構有盈利所得、資本所得跟薪資所得那事實上在學界的一些討論和政策討論資本利的基本上包含它在交易或是持有的部分的確在稅制上面是可以做討論的"},{"start":531.394,"end":549.383,"text":"我覺得就是我們現在的稅制真的太完全集中在一些薪資所得好,然後我們看下一頁這個其實就是我們今天這個專題報告的一個重點也就是我們在受僱人員的報酬占在 GDP 的比例因為我們就是認為他偏低"},{"start":550.043,"end":570.209,"text":"那所以也事實上使得我們的很多的年輕人使得我們很多原來他們是以薪資以受僱者為主的家庭他沒有去觸及一些資本利得他沒有去玩股票他沒有錢去買房而這些族群他要去累積財富他就非常的困難"},{"start":571.209,"end":591.926,"text":"所以就變成臺灣怎麼樣呢跟國外養錢滾錢錢滾錢很容易但是你用勞力所得去累積你的財富就非常的困難你就會落在後段班而你完全沒有辦法養工所以這就是我們今天的報告裡面為什麼希望能夠做一些改善對於薪資所得者"},{"start":592.766,"end":615.451,"text":"對受僱者能不能再多照顧一些好來看下一頁其實今天還有一個訊息啊就是我們說一直希望能夠提高工資但是我們大學畢業生每四人就有一個人是領基本工資而且即便他已經做一年囉還是有很多人他的薪水還在領基本工資"},{"start":616.431,"end":628.404,"text":"所以他如何去累積財富呢這才是說我們今天為什麼要有這樣的一個專題報告而這樣的趨勢就會變成很多年輕人變成什麼呢躺平族"},{"start":629.397,"end":656.986,"text":"我沒有辦法再努力了我也不敢去結婚我也沒有辦法去生小孩我也不會買房子我甚至連車子都沒有辦法買就像那個什麼就像日本一樣台灣也越來越多會變成這樣所以為什麼今天我要特別提到我肯定主計處時隔30年願意做一個財富調查報告但是我完全不肯定剛才主計長的態度說這不過是參考而已參考什麼"},{"start":657.546,"end":678.545,"text":"如果只是請你就說看看而已那有什麼好做的呢這叫做什麼使命呢所以我才希望我們各部會能把這個調查跟我們今天的報告做一個連結我剛就在講如果今天我們對於資本利得我們在整個的稅制上沒有辦法去做一些改變"},{"start":679.807,"end":680.447,"text":"謝謝王鴻薇的質詢,接著我們請黃珊珊委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"151963","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151963","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466be6692ed9b84f74d11853afabeb86d4497f5010e63071191971115e0c3c9f18cf5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林憶君","委員發言時間":"11:45:06 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局長早今天談論的主題確實是真的是有點專業但卻是對台灣防衛體系中相當重要的一環那無論平時還是暫時確實都跟全體的軍民士氣都是有很大的關係首先我想要請教局長很多民眾有可能有一些疑問那就是關鍵基礎設施的韌性重點在防護還有安全"},{"start":35.464,"end":59.895,"text":"在這個大主題之下,行政院設有國土安全辦公室那由副院長擔任召集人那請問,國安局在這之中的角色是什麼?主從的關係是什麼?又有什麼具體的成效?好,各位委員報告一下,剛在順便報告有提到這一部分也就是說行政院他有針對國土安全有成立相關的一個政策匯報那政策匯報的機制國安局是成員可以參加這個政策匯報相關跨部會的討論"},{"start":64.837,"end":88.197,"text":"另外行政院也有依照國土安全防護的需要來成立相關的一個所謂的指導的綱要指導綱要後面也還有一個專案小組那國安局也是專案小組的成員那另外行政院針對國土關鍵基礎設施的防護也有成立相關的情報通報的一個網絡那國安局因為是國家情報主管機關在這部分我們也發揮我們的角色"},{"start":90.363,"end":106.619,"text":"最近這幾年國際局勢其實變化速度是比以前還快所以也陸續出現很多很難預測的黑天鵝事件影響著國際局勢的走向譬如說美國退出了TPP還有新冠肺炎疫情還有極端氣候的變遷問題俄烏戰爭甚至到以哈戰爭還有以色列伊朗之間的軍事衝突"},{"start":112.805,"end":119.027,"text":"但是這些事件發生在事前根本是沒有辦法預料到的臺灣也深受了這些事件的影響那請問局長你對這些國際黑天鵝事件是否產生重大影響對臺灣來說這樣的看法為何呢"},{"start":128.932,"end":142.347,"text":"對,我們剛剛所提到的這些都是非常重要的國際情勢的發展那就國安跟情報作業的角度來講,怎麼樣來機先預警確實是最重要的那你要能夠達到機先預警,第一個就必須要掌握到整體發展的脈動跟趨勢"},{"start":144.89,"end":160.343,"text":"那要達到這樣的目的我們跟國際有盟在情報安全的合作也就變得非常的重要那這也是為什麼我們在過去這段時間積極的來加強跟各個國家在這一方面共同關鍵議題的情資的交換來提升我們自己本身的一個能量"},{"start":162.666,"end":178.698,"text":"國際局勢大家也知道演變得非常快速新型態的威脅其實也是不斷的出現尤其是看到中共解放軍近幾年在台海和東亞區域的動作頻繁所以其實確實他們不斷的利用包含了灰色地帶的作戰"},{"start":179.338,"end":192.585,"text":"在內的各種超軍事的行動企圖達到脅迫性的合同的目的那請教一下就是國安局統籌的國土安全政策匯報每年召開一次的定期會議但台灣面對這些威脅性的形態的變化卻那麼快速那每年一次的定期會議恐怕會來不及應付這些威脅那是否可以考慮改成每半年呢還是每一季呢這樣的會議呢才能應付這種臨時的威脅"},{"start":208.213,"end":220.496,"text":"兩個部分的補充說明就行政院的相關的政策匯報是由行政院來召集由行政院的副院長來擔任召集人那他等於比較像是一個副首長層級的一個工作協調一個協調匯報政策協調匯報但是他雖然是每年召開一次"},{"start":226.218,"end":243.278,"text":"在每年召開一次以外還有很多工作層級的會議不斷的在召開所以而不是只有一年開一次會我的意思是一年開一次會是針對政策面向由副首長來討論但是針對工作計畫面向不斷的在召開會議來進行跨部會的溝通跟協調"},{"start":246.192,"end":251.837,"text":"那我接下來就是還有一個問題就是針對無人機威脅問題想要來跟局長討論一下你還記得幾個月前彈簧刀的無人機其實鬼出神出鬼沒的嘛又很難防禦啊讓他在俄烏戰爭中一戰成名但因此獲得台灣軍方的高度的重視然後中科院甚至也研發出台灣版的彈簧刀但不知道局長有沒有發現"},{"start":271.075,"end":283.009,"text":"最近這些無人機,台灣大無人機其實討論已經消失了反而是東歐戰場上外流出來的相關影片又回到雙方大量運用的小型商用無人機進行攻擊那請問局長你知道嗎?對,這確實是要"},{"start":288.314,"end":306.995,"text":"我們在談關鍵基礎設施的防護那怎麼樣對於可能的威脅來源不同的樣態要能夠事先的來掌握那就無人機的部分來講因為他現在的技術已經越來越擴散了很多國家或非國家的行為者或組織也都有這種無人機的技術可以來發動攻擊"},{"start":308.416,"end":336.675,"text":"所以可能我們未來在評估國家的關鍵基礎設施防護過程當中怎麼樣來面對空中的這種可能的威脅加強對於空中的防護會變得非常的重要而這個議題的層級已經不單單是所謂的關鍵基礎設施的防護了它甚至已經涉及到國防的部分包括空防系統的部署以及依據無人機的特性來堅持起這種干擾或反制的技術的引進也會非常的重要"},{"start":338.416,"end":351.743,"text":"剛才討論的是商用無人機,其實它是比較便宜又比較快速大量製造,所以其實消耗補充非常的容易,而且也是非常好的改裝,所以一般的民眾其實就可以進行這種飛行的訓練,短時間內都可以投入前線使用,甚至可以同時用大量便宜的無人機,對高價值目標發出了風群攻擊。"},{"start":360.427,"end":381.592,"text":"因為到現在二屋戰爭雙方來講都還沒有一種有效的防疫的手段所以因為商用無人機有幾個特性無論是定翼機或是旋翼機還有很多多軸穿越機其實只要有對機電相關知識要如何改裝其實不是很難的但是台灣內部如果有新的人士他們想要決定對台灣關鍵基礎設施展開攻擊的話其實也是很難防禦"},{"start":387.833,"end":392.497,"text":"所以其實這些面對的小型無人機出現一定會有事前難以偵測還有事發難以察覺意圖還有事後又難以追查來源這三大反制困難所以想請問局長就是我問目前對無人機有沒有關鍵基礎設施這些威脅有哪一些我們是偵測和反制的手段呢可以簡單說明對這些行政院應該有在做相關的評估那但就商用無人機來講就我們國安單位國安局來講"},{"start":417.856,"end":443.376,"text":"那在我們的特勤維安常常要面對這樣的問題包括國家的重大慶典比如說520的重大總統就職我們都部署可能的無人機攻擊針對商用無人機來講我們透過一般的干擾反制槍是可以來處理的因為它的無人機的遙控的頻率頻寬是固定的所以我們只要鎖定相關的頻寬在無人機可能來襲的方向做好部署的話要遇擊落或反制迫降這都沒有技術上的問題"},{"start":443.976,"end":445.117,"text":"對,因為其實我最近有注意到一個實際的案例,來印證我剛才的說法"},{"start":463.55,"end":476.978,"text":"就是去年5月有兩架無人機在莫斯科的克林姆林宮上面爆炸雖然沒有對建築造成嚴重的損害但是攻擊的畫面傳到全世界之後不僅成功的激勵民主陣營"},{"start":478.559,"end":483.243,"text":"這兩架無人機其實利用難以偵測的特性躲過俄羅斯層層的防空系統的搜索成功鑽進了俄羅斯的政治的核心所以其實這個無人機的意圖攻擊之後,烏克蘭也不承認是他們主動攻擊還是俄羅斯也拿不出證據來"},{"start":507.722,"end":510.925,"text":"所以這樣就突然我們想到說那我們來換一個場景我們來想看看請問如果今天潛伏在台灣的第五縱隊在陳平的時期自己改造了大疆無人機那裝著小型的爆炸物然後直接飛到總統府的上方在國旗旁邊引爆那請問局長我們目前有沒有辦法及早預警還有有沒有辦法判斷意圖還有沒有辦法做到及時反應還是解決這些威脅呢"},{"start":535.665,"end":561,"text":"這沒有問題這也是我剛剛為什麼在舉例的時候特別提到我們的特勤維安那包括博愛特區的重點區域我們都有部署無人機的反制的裝置那特別是在重大的國家慶典我剛剛會特別提到重大國家慶典是因為現場可能會有匯集數萬人人在那現場所以怎麼樣來避免來自於空中無人機的攻擊我們都有重重部署包括各個的制高點一有無人機接觸的話絕對可以把他擊落"},{"start":561.741,"end":563.783,"text":"臺灣目前有針對電磁脈衝攻擊的防護的問題以軍方來說國防部其實早就已經意識到電磁脈衝的威脅2000年初就已經執行了脈護計畫"},{"start":584.665,"end":591.271,"text":"那針對目前來看臺灣的公部門其實很大部分的關鍵基礎設施對於電磁脈衝防護和復原其實都是缺乏應對措施的其實這是一個非常危險的一件事情2019年美國國會公布了一個電磁脈衝核彈攻擊"},{"start":602.421,"end":604.281,"text":"臺灣全島都陷入黑暗,請問局長,我們目前有沒有針對電磁脈衝向所有的政府部門還有民間企業說明潛在的風險,還有"},{"start":624.906,"end":645.887,"text":"到目前為止除了國軍之外政府單位針對電磁脈衝攻擊做了哪些防護的措施?國安演練又做了哪些內容?因為這個我們辦公室好像都找不到這些相關的內容對他這部分比較像是剛剛也跟委員提到了像是一個國防層面的一個應處的一個作為"},{"start":646.828,"end":668.019,"text":"對於比較殺傷力大的攻擊武器不管是電磁脈衝還是委員剛剛在投影片也稍微提到的石墨彈那他們所造成我們的通訊裝備的傷害會非常非常的大所以對於這樣的一個發展的趨勢我們會在內部的討論來多多的注意那也要結合到跟國防部之間的合作我們剛剛在書面報告也提到了關鍵基礎設施的防護必須要有平時跟暫時緊密的一個結合"},{"start":674.062,"end":674.302,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151962","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151962","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b75a7587915def3721853afabeb86d4497f5010e6307119197b124888fff9f1c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:38:13 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down就停了，遠端操控在機具安全上是有這個裝置能力的，很多大型機具為了工作安全，在勞動部勞檢、安檢的時候，他們都要求要具備這樣的能力，具備這樣能力的機具既然可以遠端中止，表示它可以有傳輸的設備，你同不同意？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，對於委員這樣的提醒，我想我們會把這樣的資訊讓業管單位更進一步的瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們不要說你們澈查過了，只要這些機具本身具有一定的工作安全危害性，通常就要加入一些防呆、中止的措施，防止造成傷害，這些都具備有遠端控制的功能，所以為了保障資訊安全，國營單位、公共工程及軍事單位全面禁止中國製的機具進場施作你支持嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們再請行政院相關單位針對這個部分再做進一步的檢查。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我再告訴你一個很嚴重的事情，包括主席也知道，依據全民防衛動員準備法第十六條，在動員階段可以徵調民間的各種物資設施，你知道我們有哪些機具設施在全民防衛動員的時候要動員的？起重機要不要？板車要不要？怪手要不要？這些機具很多都不是臺灣生產的喔！所以在戰時徵用的中國製機具或設備，是否可能有國家安全的疑慮？舉例來講，對於反空降的作為，所有的單臂式高舉起重機，它在軍方徵用的時候，會在反空降的地點升起來，防止敵軍空降傘兵，有沒有？有這樣的作用嘛，對不對？"],["蔡局長明彥：對"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們會把這些大型起重機迅速集中，作為立即反空降的一個作為，如果這些機具不舉呢？遠端控制不舉呢？發動不了呢？有沒有這個安全疑慮？你同不同意？"],["蔡局長明彥：同意，同意委員的推論，要注意。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們要求兩件事情，請研議對國營單位、公共工程及軍事單位全面禁止中國製的機具進場施作，以確保資訊安全的可行性，一個月內提出書面報告可以嗎？這應該是國土辦的事情，對不起，應該要問主任，這是國土辦的事情。"],["林主任傑：我們會召集各單位來瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那也請研議戰時徵用機具的設備規範，排除所有中國製的機具包括晶片，保障國家安全，可不可以？請你們瞭解現在的設備很多都有晶片，晶片都有傳輸能力，進一步去瞭解可以嗎？"],["林主任傑：是，我們會找各單位來一起會商瞭解。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝兩位，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝，接下來請楊瓊瓔委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-16","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","林楚茵","沈伯洋","王定宇","陳冠廷","洪申翰","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","黃仁","邱志偉","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，\n以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.43596875,"end":6.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.000343750000001,"end":10.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.93221875,"end":12.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.129718750000002,"end":16.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.16346875,"end":16.872218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.54721875,"end":18.137843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.660968750000002,"end":27.520343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.68909375,"end":39.079718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.14721875,"end":44.766593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.205343750000004,"end":47.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.02346875,"end":68.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.56034375,"end":74.73659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.36534375000001,"end":75.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.98971875000001,"end":79.96784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.99346875,"end":78.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.69784375,"end":84.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.18659375,"end":93.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.09659375000001,"end":98.36159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.74971875,"end":103.60971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.91346875,"end":107.06909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.40659375000001,"end":109.34721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.56659375000001,"end":112.24971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.41846875,"end":115.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":115.30409375,"end":115.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.81034375,"end":116.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.75534375000001,"end":118.59471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.59471875000001,"end":126.05346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.54721875000001,"end":136.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.36409375,"end":136.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.85346875000002,"end":141.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.74721875,"end":144.90284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.24034375000002,"end":146.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.74221875,"end":148.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.13409375,"end":151.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.37846875,"end":154.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":154.36971875,"end":155.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.32721875000001,"end":158.75721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.14534375000002,"end":160.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.76534375,"end":166.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.51534375,"end":168.62909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.00034375,"end":172.35846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.15159375000002,"end":175.24409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.36221875,"end":176.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.03284375,"end":179.56409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.10409375,"end":182.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.85471875000002,"end":185.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.17909375000002,"end":186.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.40659375,"end":189.33471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.52034375000002,"end":191.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.03471875000002,"end":193.31721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":194.38034375,"end":195.07221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAK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down就停了"},{"start":314.206,"end":331.596,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":336.119,"end":348.508,"text":"所以你們不要說你們徹查過了只要是這些機具它的本身具有一定的公共安全的工作安全的危害性通常會要加入一些防呆"},{"start":349.989,"end":370.727,"text":"那終止的措施防止造成傷害這些都具備有遠端控制的功能所以為了保障資訊安全國營單位、公共工程及軍事單位全面禁止中國製的機具進場施作,你支持嗎?對,我們再請行政院相關的單位來針對這個部分我再告訴你一個很嚴重的事情主席也知道全民防衛動員防動法第16條動員階段可以增掉民間的各種物資設施"},{"start":376.112,"end":381.36,"text":"你知道嗎?我們有哪些的基礎設施在全民防衛動員的時候要動員的?起重機要不要?板車要不要?"},{"start":384.366,"end":406.868,"text":"外首要不要這些機具很多都不是台灣生產的喔所以在暫時徵用的中國製的機具或設備是否可能有國家安全的疑慮舉例來講我告訴你對於反空降的作為所有的單臂式的高級的起重機他在軍方徵用的時候會在反空降的地點他把他升起來防止敵軍空降散兵有沒有"},{"start":407.549,"end":435.109,"text":"有這樣的作用嗎?對不對?我們會把這些大型的起重機迅速集中作為立即的反空降的一個作為如果這些機具不舉呢?遠端控制不舉呢?發動不了呢?有沒有這個安全疑慮?同不同意?同意啊,同意委員的推論好,所以我們要求兩個事情主席站起來了請研議對國營單位、公共工程及經濟單位全面禁止中國製的機具進場施作以確保資訊安全的可行性一個月提出文明報告,可以嗎?"},{"start":436.326,"end":461.482,"text":"這是應該是國土辦的事情,對不起,應該問主任這是你們國土辦的事情我們會來召集各單位來瞭解好,那也請嚴硬的暫時正用機具的設備規範排除所有中國製的機具包括晶片保障國家安全,可不可以請你們瞭解現在的設備很多這種晶片,晶片都有傳輸能力進一步的去瞭解,可以嗎我們會找各單位來一起會商瞭解好,謝謝,謝謝兩位,謝謝主席好,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151960","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151960","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bb06878cff1f576bf1853afabeb86d4497f5010e630711919046b0eefe8e5e5315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"11:21:36 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xt":"你不會覺得很荒謬嗎?我跟委員報告因為我們國防的部份軍機黨的設施的部份是由國防部那邊在整體在盤點處理是!那國防部依照什麼盤點處理?這當然國防法的相關規定不是國防法的相關規定啊!局長您知道嗎?國防部的部份我想我們尊重他們的專業的評估還有法理的依據"},{"start":151.906,"end":176.983,"text":"對不起喔,我有一點驚訝今天我們在討論關鍵基礎設施的時候來的國安局的局長跟國土辦辦公室的主任對這麼重要的問題會這麼不熟啊我真的蠻驚訝的目前就軍機場的部分是在哪一個法律裡面來去歸管的,您知道嗎?您知道嗎?來請國土辦這邊"},{"start":182.976,"end":194.508,"text":"在相關的法令裡面有包含國安法、要塞堡壘法要塞堡壘地帶法裡面的規範依照要塞堡壘地帶法裡面的規範以龍潭軍用機場為例有公告嗎這個是很重要的關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":206.087,"end":234.625,"text":"報告委員針對這個國防的相關的有一些他周圍有一些限制或管理的規定他是有一個國防依照剛剛講的要塞堡壘法去做一個公告你說的沒有錯嘛我齁幫你把話講完整一點如果是國防部的話他們會說這個應該是歸在要塞堡壘地帶法裡面規範那下一個問題來啦依照要塞堡壘地帶法裡面規範的話要公告目前所公告的22個地方有包括軍機場嗎"},{"start":236.53,"end":249.667,"text":"沒有包括軍機場沒有包括軍機場所以現在下一個關鍵的問題就來了我們在上一次修法的時候針對這麼重要的軍機場我們既沒有把它納入關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":251.806,"end":277.108,"text":"在要塞堡壘地帶法裡面也沒有公告是屬於他們要防護的要塞堡壘那請問針對軍機場這麼重要的關鍵基礎設施目前我們所採取的防護沒有把它納入關鍵基礎設施會產生什麼問題我直接把它點名啦這個是包括了臺大法學院包括了中研院一群學者"},{"start":278.26,"end":307.318,"text":"對於我們的國安體系所提出的事情他們在盤點上一屆國會修關鍵基礎設施的時候重大疏漏的時候一群由臺大法學院跟中研院法學院的學者他們聯名寫了一個聲明盤點上一屆國會修法以後出現重大的漏洞那些重大的漏洞包括我剛剛所點出來的第一個問題來看一下"},{"start":308.598,"end":335.466,"text":"中國的富豪買美國空軍基地旁邊的土地結果被駁回引發相當大的爭議為什麼因為這個美國空軍基地旁邊的土地他們把它納入什麼關鍵基礎設施的範圍之內局長贊不贊成對有他的相關的安全考量的依據可以理解可以理解嗎對台灣有相同的作為嗎"},{"start":337.711,"end":356.289,"text":"這就是我的問題台灣有相同的作為嗎?捍衛國家安全不是喊口號是在具體的法律設計跟我們的行政作為上嘛美國有這樣的規範那我就簡單的請教阿您贊不贊成這樣的規範如果您贊成的話我下一個問題台灣有這樣的規範嗎?如果台灣沒有這樣的規範台灣應不應該有這樣的規範來請教局長"},{"start":363.58,"end":384.662,"text":"對,我們可以來討論可以來討論嗎討論了8年啦討論了8年啦你們上次盤點關鍵基礎設施的時候學者很認真啊為了台灣的國家安全人家把問題都盤點出來了隔了一年你今天在外交國防委員會跟大家講說可以來討論好,需要討論多久"},{"start":386.263,"end":404.968,"text":"有在規劃,我們請那個國土辦公室來,需要規劃多久?報告委員,這個釐清過在目前兩岸人民關係條例裡面有相關的規定齁在授權的執法裡面,到地區人民來台投資或取得不動產沒有沒有沒有,你先停一下這個已經不是中國人買不買的問題啊"},{"start":406.528,"end":425.859,"text":"是其他的人脈可能都有這個問題啊北韓的人脈你覺得就OK嗎蘇俄的人脈你覺得就OK嗎我現在在跟你講規範的事情啊剛局長說要檢討我也給你時間檢討我最後一個問題不要耽誤其他委員的時間嘛要討論多久就這麼簡單的問題要討論多久"},{"start":429.448,"end":444.618,"text":"跟委員報告因為現在有相關的法令我可不可以做個說明一個是在土地法裡面針對外國人來購買的一些限制的法令的規定裡面就包含有要塞堡壘法第一代所劃定的所以我就問你嘛要塞堡壘法有說要軍機廠嗎"},{"start":447.679,"end":475.055,"text":"我剛已經告訴你了嘛要塞堡壘法有公告軍機場嗎你還在講公話我所有的法規都幫你整理完欸我很訝異欸竟然比我還不熟阿報告委員在許可辦法裡面的有一款是各目的社會主管機關來做一個會商吼然後呢會商完了嗎公告了嗎現在各個如果外國人要來取得國內的土地"},{"start":475.615,"end":475.815,"text":"謝謝主席的財事,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151959","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151959","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466baf884825542e6ea71853afabeb86d4497f5010e6307119190829630984fb1b6e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"11:13:36 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交代所以把我們很多機關的員警員額全部都調過去造成現在很多機關的員警員額是嚴重不足的是沒有補齊的是沒有補滿的"},{"start":418.171,"end":434.45,"text":"那這樣會不會某種程度上也發生我們其他機關的員額不夠我就直接講啦交通建設相關的警務機關他的員額就嚴重不足因為有很多的員額是被調去支援寶二"},{"start":436.277,"end":436.617,"text":"提供專業意見為國家服務謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151958","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151958","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b94c9f6d5d7df023c900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e6307119191932705a9722646d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"11:08:35 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比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-11"},"duration":696,"end_time":"2024-05-01T11:20:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T11:08:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":705,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（11時8分）謝謝主席，我先請勞動部次長。"],["主席：有請許次長。"],["許次長傳盛：李委員好。"],["李委員坤城：次長好。謝謝主席在今天五一勞動節安排這麼有意義的題目。我先問次長，我看昨天有國民黨的立委開記者會，我先問一下，在勞基法裡面有沒有「試用期」這個詞彙，或者是試用期的法條？"],["許次長傳盛：現在已經修掉，沒有這個。"],["李委員坤城：沒有試用期嘛？"],["許次長傳盛：對。"],["李委員坤城：我昨天看到有國民黨立法委員說要把勞工的試用期法制化，而且試用期的薪水不得低於應聘工資的80%，當然就引起很多人的反彈，那就變成你同工不同酬啊！本來沒有試用期，結果你試用期3個月，而且薪資打八折，未來公司在應聘新人的時候，先把你打八折再說。次長，你知不知道昨天這個新聞？"],["許次長傳盛：是，我看到了。"],["李委員坤城：你覺得怎麼樣？"],["許次長傳盛：我想這個是之前，我們現在新的法令就是因為這樣子有後遺症，所以已經把它拿掉了。如果現在又往回頭路，這個部分……"],["李委員坤城：有什麼樣的後遺症？"],["許次長傳盛：可能就變成雇主有鑽法律漏洞的可能性，或者是工資有可能因為這樣子反而下降。"],["李委員坤城：所以新進員工進去的話，沒有試用期，這是第一個，當然勞資是有相關的一些契約規定。"],["許次長傳盛：對。"],["李委員坤城：也沒有所謂的薪資打折的事情吧？這應該有違反勞基法的規定吧？"],["許次長傳盛：我們勞動部現在是訂基本工資，以後是最低工資，在這個之上，當然我們會尊重勞雇雙方的協議。"],["李委員坤城：不是，如果是同樣的工作，新進人員就打八折，這對新進人員公平嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：不，基本上我們是有一個基本工資跟最低工資在這個地方，那接上來，他跟雇主之間怎麼協議或是怎麼談，這個部分是雇主跟勞工之間的協議。"],["李委員坤城：不是，如果是同樣的工作，只是因為他是新進人員就打八折，這樣公平嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：我想這個當然違反同工同酬公平的規則。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝。因為今天是勞動節，剛好次長也過來，所以我特別請教您這一題，謝謝次長。"],["許次長傳盛：謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：來，我們請主計長。"],["主席：有請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["李委員坤城：主計長好。主計長辛苦了！昨天看到你們發布的新聞稿，第1季的GDP成長率增加到6.51%，主計長看到這個數字高不高興？"],["朱主計長澤民：當然高興，比我們原來的預期高。"],["李委員坤城：比原來預期高的原因在哪裡？"],["朱主計長澤民：是因為出口不錯，然後消費維持平穩，雖然投資還是負的，但是沒有想像中負那麼多。謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：你們本來預期是多少？本來預期第1季是多少？"],["朱主計長澤民：5.92%，現在變6.51%。"],["李委員坤城：就是比預期增加了0.59個百分點。"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["李委員坤城：請教主計長，按照你們在2月底對經濟成長率的預估，今年的全年經濟成長率大概是3.43%，如果說第1季的經濟成長率有高達6.51%，那您要不要再預測一下，整年度的經濟成長率會不會再做調整？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我們5月份會有一個新的預估。如果以0.59來看，相當於年的話，大概是增加0.14%，所以會從原來的3.43%變成3.57%，可是這個是根據原來的預估，我們5月底會有一個新的預估。"],["李委員坤城：但是這個趨勢是成長的就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["李委員坤城：所以主計長對於臺灣今年度的經濟成長率是有信心的？"],["朱主計長澤民：謹慎樂觀，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：謹慎樂觀，我昨天看到你們的新聞稿上面寫「國內景氣已慢慢轉好，但復甦力道和緩」，主計長怎麼看？"],["朱主計長澤民：這個是經過修改，我的用語。"],["李委員坤城：經過修改。"],["朱主計長澤民：我不能夠說很樂觀，讓下一個主計長抓狂，對不對？謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：所以你的意思是說，你不要一下子把標準設太高，怕他如果達不到會怪你就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，我們不是用想像去說，而是估計那個資料，所以我剛才講的，我們估計3.57%也是有依據的。"],["李委員坤城：對，當然主計總處的每個數據都有依據。"],["朱主計長澤民：是的，謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：但是在修辭上面的學問就很大了，因為景氣轉好，這個是事實，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["李委員坤城：但是復甦力道和緩，這個就是你給的一個，怎麼講呢？你不希望給下面的主計長太大的壓力就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。跟委員報告，有一個很好的現象大家沒有看到，就是我們的出口增加，而且出口的單價是成長百分之十幾，這是一個好現象，不像前些時候的出口單價是往下跌，有一點在便宜賣，現在是人家貴貴地跟我們買，謝謝。"],["李委員坤城：不過這個也是集中在一些AI產業，或者是高科技產業。"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["李委員坤城：好，本席再請教主計長，從我國GDP分配面的結構來看，我們從最早的70年看到111年，受僱人員的報酬本來是占49.3%，到了111年下降到43.9%，但是企業盈餘其實是有增加的，主計長怎麼看這個數字呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：我必須講，因為營業盈餘是對資本的報酬，受僱人員是對勞動的報酬，那我們的資本從另外一個方向來看，我們資本密集度越來越高，所以營業盈餘會增加。同樣的，因為有資本的報酬，有勞動的報酬，從勞動的報酬來看，表示我們不再是一個勞動密集的產業，所以這個比重下跌還是可以被認同的，世界各國的趨勢都有這個現象。"],["李委員坤城：對，主計長你有專業的看法，但是我認為會不會是因為企業盈餘沒有分潤到員工？這可能也是原因之一啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，這也是原因之一，這個是大家共同來努力。"],["李委員坤城：你剛剛都沒有提到這一點。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，剛才主席也有提到這一點。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！所以現在就要提到我們的中小企業發展條例要做修改，這個要請財政部次長過來，中小企業發展條例要做修改，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：委員好。是。"],["李委員坤城：也是有加薪減稅的一個主軸，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：是。"],["李委員坤城：我看了你們的中小企業發展條例的修改，第一個，其實剛剛王世堅委員有提到，不過你們應該有做了修改，就是把這一個景氣啟動門檻刪除掉。"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["李委員坤城：有把它刪除掉，因為過去還有說失業率要連續6個月高於3.78%……"],["阮次長清華：這些都刪除。"],["李委員坤城：所以過去10年其實才2個年度有嘛！所以你們把它刪除掉了。"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["李委員坤城：有關於加薪的部分，增僱員工薪資費用本來是130%，得自當年度營利事業所得額中減除，現在是把加成減除率提高到150%，這個你們也是同意的？"],["阮次長清華：對，我們都同意了。"],["李委員坤城：因為只要講到要減稅的話，你們大概心裡就會痛一下，所以這個你們也是支持的就對了？"],["阮次長清華：是，我們是同意的。"],["李委員坤城：基層員工薪資適用範疇，從5萬元調高到6.2萬元，這個都是修法的方向就對了？"],["阮次長清華：嗯。"],["李委員坤城：好，請教一下，這個條例是到5月……"],["阮次長清華：5月19日。"],["李委員坤城：就是到519嘛！現在如果要延長的話，是要延長10年就對了？"],["阮次長清華：延長10年。"],["李委員坤城：延長10年的話，因為行政院版已經同意了，對不對？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["李委員坤城：那你們除了這個之外呢？除了這個之外，你們覺得加薪減稅還有沒有其他的方法可以來做？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，事實上我們的經濟發展是朝向資本密集跟技術密集，就全球各地來講，基本上所得分配大概都有一些扭曲，就是有些比較好有些比較弱的情況，那我們現在的做法是怎麼做呢？第一個，我們希望能夠透過剛才講的租稅減免，鼓勵民間的業者能夠加薪，這是第一個。"],["李委員坤城：好，因為之前的中小企業發展條例對於中小企業的扶助有限啦！過去才2個年度有達到效果，那你們預計在相關的條例修改之後，對中小企業實際上的幫助咧？對於勞工實際上的幫助咧？"],["阮次長清華：目前根據經濟部的評估，增僱的員工大概可以增加4,000人到1萬人。"],["李委員坤城：那薪資呢？"],["阮次長清華：薪資……"],["李委員坤城：薪資的部分呢？有可能因為這樣子減稅之後，大概調薪多少？有沒有這個數字？"],["阮次長清華：大概十五億多啦！根據經濟部目前的評估，一年大概增加十五億多。"],["李委員坤城：如果說到中小企業的勞工手上咧？你們有預估、有算過嗎？"],["阮次長清華：有算過，就是會增加十五億多。"],["李委員坤城：不是，增加十五億多是全部的嘛！"],["阮次長清華：對。至於個別的話，就看每一個職位都不一樣。"],["李委員坤城：可是現在519就到期了啊！這個是禮拜……"],["阮次長清華：明天在經濟委員會就會討論這個案子。"],["李委員坤城：這樣來得及嗎？"],["阮次長清華：就明天討論，我想明天看有沒有結論，如果有結論的話，就根據那個結論來處理。"],["李委員坤城：好，謝謝主計長，謝謝阮次長，謝謝主席。"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝李坤城的質詢。","我們休息10分鐘。","休息（11時20分）","繼續開會（11時30分）"],["主席：我們繼續開會。","接著請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-11","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王世堅","李坤城","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","顏寬恒","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","黃秀芳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就\n「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質\n薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.99284375,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":1.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.856593750000002,"end":9.649718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.919718750000001,"end":15.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":16.06221875,"end":19.69034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.078468750000003,"end":24.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":24.769718750000003,"end":27.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":28.262843750000002,"end":29.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.38909375,"end":30.70971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":30.70971875,"end":60.696593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.52784375,"end":33.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.20284375000001,"end":61.62471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":61.99596875,"end":64.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.62846875000001,"end":65.69159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.82659375,"end":66.23159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.23159375,"end":66.40034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.53534375000001,"end":68.23971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.94846875,"end":70.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.65284375,"end":76.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.71534375,"end":76.06971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.06971875,"end":76.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.47034375,"end":80.11971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.79471875,"end":82.12784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.36409375000001,"end":85.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.60409375,"end":88.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.79784375,"end":87.83159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.91596875,"end":88.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.03409375000001,"end":88.05096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.06346875,"end":90.98721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.39221875000001,"end":92.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.69159375000001,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":93.97409375000001,"end":103.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.65221875,"end":101.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.70284375,"end":101.80409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":104.77409375,"end":106.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.54159375,"end":114.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.03034375,"end":112.35096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.32534375,"end":120.87284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.88971875000001,"end":121.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.95284375000001,"end":122.64471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.96534375,"end":127.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.50471875000001,"end":136.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":135.43596875,"end":135.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":136.11096875,"end":136.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.19534375,"end":137.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.96721875,"end":147.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":147.60284375,"end":148.34534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.99096875,"end":148.19346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":148.36221875,"end":150.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.42909375000002,"end":153.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.96034375000002,"end":155.71971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.02346875,"end":156.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":156.93471875,"end":159.43221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":159.97221875,"end":162.52034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":162.62159375000002,"end":163.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":164.17409375,"end":165.05159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.27096875,"end":167.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.49846875,"end":168.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.71346875,"end":170.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.02971875,"end":170.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.06346875,"end":170.08034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":170.53596875000002,"end":171.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":170.67096875000001,"end":194.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":174.06284375,"end":174.87284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.39284375000003,"end":196.67534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":197.23221875000002,"end":197.24909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":197.24909375000001,"end":202.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":203.02034375000002,"end":204.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":204.28596875000002,"end":207.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":207.03659375,"end":210.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":210.51284375,"end":211.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.93471875,"end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這個比我們原來的預期高比原來預期高的原因在哪裡"},{"start":180.303,"end":180.624,"text":"本來預期是多少?"},{"start":204.786,"end":230.732,"text":"5.9現在變6.51就是比預期增加的大概0.59個百分點那請教一下主計長如果是按照這個你們在2月底的一個經濟成長率的一個預估預估是今年的全年經濟成長率大概是3.43那如果說按照這個第一季的經濟的這個成長率有高達6.51那您要不要再預測一下"},{"start":232.392,"end":242.656,"text":"整年度的經濟成長率會不會再做調整對,我們五月份會有一個新的我們五月份會有一個新的預估如果這樣子是0.59的話相當於年的話大概是0.15增加0.14那我們原來是3.43所以會變成3.57可是這個是"},{"start":261.423,"end":262.904,"text":"國內景氣已慢慢轉好但復甦力道和緩"},{"start":287.352,"end":288.493,"text":"對,這種事我經過修改都用語,經過修改,我不能夠說很樂觀,讓下一個主計長這個略公,謝謝"},{"start":303.543,"end":320.674,"text":"所以李坤城說你不要這個一下子標準設太高他怕說他如果打不到的話會怪你就對了我們不是用那個想像去說我們是估計那個資料所以我剛才講的我們估計3.57也是有依據的你們當然主計處的這個每個數據都有依據啦但是這個修辭上面這個學問就很大了因為景氣轉好這個是事實嘛對不對"},{"start":333.242,"end":334.603,"text":"我們的出口增加"},{"start":350.353,"end":350.814,"text":"主席主席長"},{"start":376.896,"end":384.022,"text":"從我國GDP分片面的結構來看我們從最早70年開始看到這個111年受僱人員的報酬本來是占49.3%但是到了111年下降到43.9%但是企業營運其實是有增加的"},{"start":396.354,"end":410.564,"text":"那主席想怎麼看這個數字呢?這個我必須講這個是因為我們的那個因為那個營業盈餘是對資本的報酬受僱人員是對勞動的報酬那我們的資本從另外一個"},{"start":411.579,"end":432.923,"text":"從那個方向來看我們資本密集度越來越高所以我們的那個是什麼營業盈餘會一個增加同樣的因為有資本的報酬有勞動的報酬勞動的報酬因為那個是什麼表示我們不再是一個勞動密集的產業所以這個比重下跌是一個會是說"},{"start":436.645,"end":457.646,"text":"還可以被說認同的世界各國的趨勢都有這個現象那主計長你有專業的看法但是我是認為說那會不會是因為企業盈餘沒有把那個企業的盈餘分潤到員工這可能也是原因之一對這也是原因之一這個是大家共同那你剛才都沒有提到這一點對對剛才主席也有提到這一點"},{"start":458.871,"end":460.032,"text":"中小企業發展條例要做修改"},{"start":472.318,"end":491.888,"text":"那也是這個有這個加薪減稅的這一個主軸嘛那我看了這一個這個你們的這個中小企業發展條例的修改那其中有一項就是第一個其實剛剛這個王世堅我有提到不過你們應該有做修改就是這一個景氣啟動門檻有把它刪除掉這個有把它刪除掉"},{"start":494.189,"end":494.489,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":513.866,"end":515.247,"text":"基層員工薪資的適用範疇從5萬元調高到6.2萬元"},{"start":540.658,"end":560.41,"text":"這個都是修法的一個方向就對了嘛那請教一下這個條例是到5月19號就是到519嘛那現在如果說是要延長的話是要延長10年就對了延長10年那延長10年的話那現在這個因為行政院本已經是同意了嘛對不對那你們除了這個之外呢"},{"start":561.07,"end":588.291,"text":"你們除了這個之外還有沒有什麼加薪減稅的你們覺得是還有其他的方法來做的我跟委員報告事實上我們現在就是我們的經濟發展朝向資本密集跟技術密集那所以我想就是說就全球各地來講大概基本上都是大概所得分配都有一些扭曲就比較就是有一些有一些這個有些比較好一些比較弱的情況"},{"start":589.54,"end":590.821,"text":"中小企業發展條例對中小企業的"},{"start":608.936,"end":608.976,"text":"新資?新資?"},{"start":637.766,"end":660.587,"text":"薪資的部分呢?有可能因為這樣子這個減稅之後條薪大概是條薪多少?有沒有這個數字?大概15億多啦!我們目前根據經濟部目前的這個評估的話大概一年大概增加15億多啦!那如果說這個到中小企業的勞工的手上勒?有算過嗎?"},{"start":661.328,"end":661.988,"text":"李坤城委員的質詢我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":694.258,"end":696.408,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"151957","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151957","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b5e4c467cf2316eea900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e630711919367e716d719082265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"10:54:53 - 11:08:29","影片長度":"00:13:36","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-11"},"duration":816,"end_time":"2024-05-01T11:08:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T10:54:53+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":663,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（10時54分）謝謝主席，我請主計長跟財政部部阮次長、賦稅署宋署長。"],["主席：有請朱主計長、阮次長、宋署長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：你好。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：三位好，我們今天主要的主題是要來探討貧富差距嚴重惡化，也謝謝主計總處，總算我們等了30年又來了這一份，30年前的報告跟30年之後的調查。30年前，我們前百分之二十的家庭財富所得是1,306萬，當時後百分之二十的所得是78萬，差距16.8倍。30年之後，我們前百分之二十的財富所得是5,133萬，後百分之二十的財富所得，欸，沒有增加，反而倒減1萬元，變成77萬，這個差距從16.8倍一下子惡化到66.9倍，66.9倍耶！有錢的、財富高所得的前百分之二十跟後百分之二十差距66.9倍，所以這是非常大、非常嚴重的問題。我先請教主計長，這是30年來才公布這麼一次，所以是不是未來我們應該縮短這個期限？應該每幾年就要公布一次，讓各部會知所警惕，趕快找出什麼樣的方式來縮短我們社會財富的分配，所以主計長，你有沒有認為應該要做怎麼樣的調整？"],["朱主計長澤民：我是認為這個不該30年才公布一次，因為現在的調查技術以及大數據的發展，不必像以前那樣一個、一個去調查，我們可以利用大數據來做，我們這一次做的就是利用大數據，我覺得委員剛才講的非常對，我們會定期做，那個定期不會說30年才做一次。"],["王委員世堅：好，謝謝你這個答復，所以你認為應該，因為現在既然有大數據來調查、統計，非常容易嘛。"],["朱主計長澤民：對、對、對。"],["王委員世堅：所以你認為是不是應該定期？那你看應該每幾年一次，可以做得到嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：我跟委員報告一下，因為這個存量的資料不會變化很大，流量的話就是所得分配，我們每年都在做，這種財富分配因為工程很浩大，所以我認為4年做一次是很恰當的。"],["王委員世堅：其實這裡面有些數字，我覺得其實是多講了啦，它說平均，大家的平均，每個家庭的財富是1,638萬，但是各位，我們有七成的家庭根本沒有達到平均數，所以這1,638萬的平均家戶財富，這句話白說就對了啦，講假的啦，沒有用嘛，七成的家庭沒有達到這個平均數。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，因為一般來講，平均數都會比中位數高，所以我們也會有所謂中位數的資料，關於這個財富跟委員報告一下，因為它是扣掉負債，有些人就是我剛才講的財務槓桿操作過大，所以他的資產很高，但是負債也很高，結果會落入到最低的百分之二十，謝謝。"],["王委員世堅：謝謝主計長，我剛剛這句話是講給你旁邊這兩位聽的啦，我不是針對你，你很老實，你把這些數字很據實的公布出來，這是對的。朱主計長，你先請回。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝委員的關心。"],["王委員世堅：接著我問一下財政部，先前我們有富人稅嘛，你們在民國107年就把富人稅刪除掉了，你們那時候就是短短的一句話，說為了留才、攬才、吸引投資，就這麼一句話，結果你就把富人稅刪掉。剛才經濟部的次長，經濟部一向是比較天馬行空，他又說這個是為了提高生產韌性，生產韌性我不知道，我倒知道你們財政部很任性！你想刪就刪！你要討好富人，你就這麼任性地，就這樣一句話你就刪了。","好啊！刪了，你說為了留才、攬才、吸引投資，我去看了你們稅金的所得報告，你說股利所得增加678億元，可是你如果真的去看，實質股利所得增加678億元，真正的所得名單都是這些高持股者，就是這一些上市櫃營運公司本來的擁有者啊！你留才、攬才在什麼地方？我沒有看到任何實質的關聯，所以我認為你倒是應該從2023年實質總薪資來看，這是7年來頭一次負成長，實質總薪資的負成長才是真的，不是這樣嗎？然後平均總薪資也是呈現下滑，這才是真的要關注的問題，所以我看不出你們講的鼓勵，所得增加678億跟你刪除富人稅有什麼直接關係。","現在是工時越來越高，薪資越來越低啦！主計總處有做統計，受僱員工每月總工時，110年是166.7小時，111年是167.3小時，112年到現在是168.3小時，工時成長，實質薪資所得下降，這才是真正的現狀啊！我那一天也講，你們部長就是認為國產稅收這個十字架他要牢牢地守住就對了，只對富人減稅，其他你休想碰！好啊！我剛剛就講啊！當你在刪除富人稅的時候，財政部當時沒有說要有替代財源才可以免除這個稅金，有嗎？沒有啊！"],["阮次長清華：是不是可以讓我簡單說明一下？綜合所得稅的稅率從45%降到40%，當時的確是考慮到留才、攬才跟促進經濟發展，那現在……"],["王委員世堅：我現在問你嘛！你要取消這一條稅收，每年大概100億，光那3年298億，你少收的富人稅，我請問你，替代財源在哪裡？"],["阮次長清華：我是不是可以說明一下？剛開始減的時候，當然一定會有稅損，但是如果拿106年跟110年來比較的話，薪資所得是增加了六千多億，總所得是增加七千多億，就稅收來講的話，整體是增加一千四百多億，所以雖然稅是降了，稅率是降……"],["王委員世堅：稅率是降。"],["阮次長清華：但是它也促進經濟的發展，提高工作的意願。"],["王委員世堅：經濟發展的果實都被極少數的財團、富人他們瓜分掉了，不是嗎？從這幾個數字裡面，我剛剛在講，你要取消富人稅，過去我們好幾位委員，包括我多次在談，不合時宜的稅制太多了，包括娛樂稅、印花稅、汽機車的貨物稅、汽車關稅等等。跟你們說這些要去調降，甚至免除掉，像娛樂稅、印花稅，像機車的貨物稅，這些都應該免除，但是在跟你們談的時候，你們說要先找到替代財源，一找找替代財源，從過去的立委到我們現在為止，找了30年，找什麼找？你找了嗎？","我剛剛光講這幾樣，娛樂稅一年最高才18億。印花稅就先不講，印花稅比較高，有150億。我就講汽機車的貨物稅47億，困擾許多升斗小民的還有保健品關稅26億，這3項加起來，汽機車貨物稅、娛樂稅跟保養品這些加起來才90億，結果你免除了富人稅，一年就免除了100億，你們大剌剌地，這6年來免除了600億，結果你偏要跟升斗小民計較，你偏要說我剛剛講的汽機車貨物稅及娛樂稅要找到替代財源。"],["阮次長清華：是不是可以讓我簡單說明一下？雖然我們當時的稅率從45%降到40%，但是那時候有提出配套方案，就是所謂的優化所得稅制方案，有提高相關的四大扣除額，這個都是針對比較弱勢的。"],["王委員世堅：優化的結果只是讓窮人更窮、富人更富，這個就是今天主計總處給我們的結論啊！"],["阮次長清華：不會啦！事實上，很多人是因為這樣的改革……"],["王委員世堅：不會？你這個態度就是不對！什麼叫不會？那主計總處今天調查出來的結論你怎麼解釋？"],["阮次長清華：我的意思是說……"],["王委員世堅：召集人，我最後再說一句話。我認為為今，從稅制、稅負上面趕快來做調整，我認為加薪減稅的第一步，財政部你聽好……"],["阮次長清華：我們這一部分……"],["王委員世堅：就是要取消失業率的限制，因為你所謂的加薪減稅的方式，到現在這麼多年只有實施一次，原因是因為什麼？你說要連續6個月失業率達到3.78%以上，坦白講，這麼多年下來就只有一次而已，所以……"],["阮次長清華：報告委員，這個在修正草案全部都刪除了，那部分都刪除了。"],["王委員世堅：因為沒有時間，召集人，我再唸三個數字、三件事情，你聽……"],["主席：好，還有時間。"],["王委員世堅：三分之二的勞工領不到平均薪資，中等薪資者10年來沒有加薪，最重要的一點，公司的營收表現好像經濟有成長，可是經濟成長的果實是極少數富人他們瓜分掉，這一點，你站在財政部、站在賦稅署長的立場，你責無旁貸！你要去想辦法。"],["阮次長清華：是，謝謝委員指教。"],["王委員世堅：你不要動不動跟經濟部一個樣，講一些天馬行空的，可不可以？"],["阮次長清華：謝謝委員指教。"],["主席：謝謝王世堅委員的質詢。","緊接著我們請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-11","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王世堅","李坤城","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","顏寬恒","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","黃秀芳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就\n「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質\n薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.45284375,"end":1.80284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.0265937500000002,"end":3.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.22034375,"end":4.06409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.283468750000001,"end":5.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.39721875,"end":5.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.7809687499999995,"end":7.844093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.485343750000002,"end":8.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.544093750000002,"end":10.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.57784375,"end":10.898468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.898468750000003,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.03346875,"end":11.117843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.36221875,"end":14.84721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.775343750000001,"end":16.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.78784375,"end":18.30659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.082843750000002,"end":20.820968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.20909375,"end":24.398468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.090343750000002,"end":30.102218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.76034375,"end":50.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.516593750000006,"end":53.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.09846875,"end":63.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.80159375,"end":67.88534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.89784375,"end":69.87659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.92284375,"end":74.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.58471875000001,"end":78.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.44471875,"end":80.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.67221875,"end":82.54971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.54534375,"end":85.33409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.00909375,"end":87.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.00034375,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.55221875000001,"end":97.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.78784375000001,"end":98.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.69909375,"end":99.59346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.47096875000001,"end":101.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.77034375000001,"end":102.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.58034375000001,"end":103.01909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.26784375000001,"end":107.38971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.50784375,"end":109.06034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.98846875000001,"end":117.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.64971875,"end":122.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.58971875,"end":124.55159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.68659375000001,"end":126.03659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.07034375,"end":126.91409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.42034375000001,"end":128.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.05284375000002,"end":130.54221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.71096875,"end":134.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.20846875,"end":159.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.41096875000002,"end":160.44471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.44471875000002,"end":161.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.03534375,"end":167.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.07659375,"end":167.27909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.27909375000002,"end":173.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.20284375,"end":169.87784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.64096875,"end":190.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.70846875,"end":174.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.44409375,"end":191.62971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.73096875000002,"end":205.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.97346875000002,"end":206.39534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.25596875000002,"end":212.25096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.57159375,"end":218.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.15284375000002,"end":220.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.05534375000002,"end":223.20284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.86096875,"end":228.09659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.48471875,"end":228.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.97409375,"end":230.15534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.59409375,"end":230.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.61096875,"end":260.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.03659375,"end":265.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.21721875000003,"end":275.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.83596875,"end":283.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.60284375000003,"end":283.68284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.95284375,"end":284.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","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處長"},{"start":104.455,"end":127.527,"text":"這是30年來才公布這麼一次所以是不是未來我們應該縮短這個期限應該每幾年就應該公布一次讓各部會知所警惕趕快找出什麼樣的方式來說斷我們社會財富的分配所以那個"},{"start":130.818,"end":159.341,"text":"處長你有沒有認為應該是怎麼樣我是認為說這個不該30年才公布一次因為現在的那個調查的技術以及那個大數據的發展不必像以前那麼一個一個去調查那我們可以利用大數據來做那我們這一次做的就是利用大數據那我覺得委員講的剛才非常對是我們會定期做那個定期不會說30年才做一次"},{"start":161.236,"end":179.115,"text":"謝謝你這個答覆所以那你認為應該因為現在既然有大數據來調查統計非常容易嘛所以你認為是不是應該定期那你看應該沒幾年一次我跟委員報告一下因為這個存量的資料不會變化很大"},{"start":179.475,"end":179.975,"text":"但是啊 各位"},{"start":207.341,"end":222.946,"text":"我們有七成的家庭根本沒有達到平均數所以這一千六百三十八萬的平均家戶財富這句話白說的就對了講假的啦"},{"start":223.905,"end":248.617,"text":"沒有用嘛七成的家庭沒有達到這個平均數對因為一般來講平均數都會比中位數高所以我們也會有所謂的中位數的一個資料這個是因為我們這個財富跟委員報告一下是扣掉負債有些人他的一個是怎麼樣銀行他"},{"start":249.797,"end":276.36,"text":"就是我剛才講的財務槓桿超得過大所以他有資產很高但是負債也很高結果會落入到最低的百分之二十謝謝那個謝謝處長我剛這句話是講給你旁邊這兩位聽的啦我不是針對你齁你很老實你把這些數字很據實的公布出來這是對的齁好那"},{"start":277.133,"end":283.558,"text":"那個朱處長你先請回朱主計長你先請回你先請回那個這個我問一下財政部財政部你們大概這先前我們有負人稅嘛"},{"start":296.127,"end":316.191,"text":"那麼你們在民國107年你們就把這個富人稅刪除掉了你們那時候就是短短的一句話說為了留財攬財吸引投資就這麼一句話就這麼一句話結果你就把這個富人稅刪掉了那剛才經濟部那個次長"},{"start":321.051,"end":344.483,"text":"經濟部一向比較天馬行空他要說這個是為了提高生產韌性生產韌性我倒不知道啦我倒知道你們財政部很韌性你想刪就刪你要討好富人你就這麼韌性的就這樣一句話你就刪了好嗎"},{"start":346.132,"end":367.689,"text":"真的你說為了流財攬財吸引投資我就看了這個你們打的這個稅金的所得報告裡面這些你說啊你說有大概鼓勵所得增加678億元可是你如果真的把實質"},{"start":369.966,"end":393.535,"text":"鼓勵所得增加678億元你真的去看真正的所得名單都是這些高持股者就是這一些上市櫃營運公司他們本來的擁有者啊你流財攬財在什麼地方我沒有看到任何實質的觀念所以"},{"start":394.878,"end":405.862,"text":"我認為你導師應該從你2023年實質總薪資這是七年來頭一次的負成長欸實質總薪資的負成長這才是真的不是這樣嗎然後平均總薪資也是呈現下滑"},{"start":416.796,"end":434.925,"text":"這才是真的要關注的問題所以我看不出你們講的那個說鼓勵啊這個所得增加678億這個跟你刪除富人稅什麼直接關係然後現在是工時越來越高薪資越來越低啦那也是"},{"start":440.121,"end":450.548,"text":"這個主計總處人家他們有做了這個啦受僱員工每月總工時110年166.7小時111 167.3小時112年到現在是168.3小時工時成長實質薪資所得下降這才是真正的現狀啊那我看你們"},{"start":469.141,"end":491.805,"text":"就是我那天也講啊你們部長他就是認為國產稅收這個實質價牢牢的他要守住就對了只對富人減稅其他你休想碰好啊我剛剛就講啊你債當你債"},{"start":496.423,"end":504.601,"text":"刪除富人稅的時候你沒有說財政部當時沒有說要有替代財源才可以免除這個稅金有嗎"},{"start":506.616,"end":530.537,"text":"沒有啊我跟委員報告齁是不是可以讓我簡單說明一下我們就是當時那個中華所得稅的稅率45%降到40%當時的確是考慮到當時的就是流財攬財跟促進經濟發展我現在問你了你要取消這一條稅說每年啊每年大概100億光23年298億"},{"start":534.8,"end":557.718,"text":"報告委員我是不是可以說明一下雖然是剛開始減的時候當然一定會有稅損但是呢如果跟106年跟110年來比較的話我們的薪資所得是增加的6千多億那麼總所得是增加7千多億那麼就稅收來講的話呢"},{"start":559.019,"end":559.579,"text":"經濟發展的果實都被極少數"},{"start":580.067,"end":588.552,"text":"這些財團富人他們瓜分掉了嘛不是嗎從這幾個數字裡面我剛剛在講我說你要取消富人稅過去啊我們好幾位委員包括我多次談這個不合時宜的稅制太多啦娛樂稅、印花稅、汽機車的貨物稅、汽車關稅等等這一些"},{"start":607.36,"end":632.161,"text":"要你們說這些要去調降甚至免除掉像娛樂稅、印花稅啊像機車的貨物稅這個都應該免除跟你們談的時候你們說這個要先找到替代財源一找找替代財源啊從過去的立委到我們現在為止找了30年找什麼找你找了嗎我剛剛光講這幾樣喔光娛樂稅"},{"start":636.069,"end":639.236,"text":"一年最高才18億這個印花稅就先不講印花稅比較高"},{"start":642.81,"end":667.457,"text":"五十億我就講汽機車的貨物稅四十七億那困擾我們許多生頭小民的還有保健品關稅這個二十六億這三項加起來啊汽機車貨物稅跟娛樂稅跟保養品這些加起來才九十億結果你免除了富人稅一年就免除了一百億"},{"start":669.107,"end":679.576,"text":"你們大剌剌的這6年來免除了600億結果你偏要跟深頭小民計較你偏要說我剛講的這個汽機車貨物稅我講的這個娛樂稅你們說要找到替代財源"},{"start":685.12,"end":704.585,"text":"報告委員我是不是可以讓我簡單說明一下雖然是我們當時的稅率是45%降到40%但是我們那時候有提出的是配套方案就是所謂的就是我們優化所的稅制方案所以是提高了相關的四大扣除優化的結果優化的結果只是讓窮人更窮富人更富"},{"start":710.806,"end":720.158,"text":"這個就是今天主計處給我們的結論嗎不會啦 不會啦事實上很多人是因為這樣的一個改革你這個態度就是不對什麼叫不會那主計總處今天這個調查出來的結論你怎麼解釋"},{"start":724.052,"end":748.38,"text":"我認為維京從稅制稅賦上面趕快來做調整我認為加薪減稅加薪減稅的第一步財政部你聽好就是要取消失業率的限制因為你所謂的加薪減稅的方式到現在這麼多年只有實施一次 原因是為什麼你說要連續"},{"start":751.277,"end":776.202,"text":"六個月失業率達到3.78%以上那坦白講這麼多年下來就只有一次而已所以這個修正草案多全部都刪除了啦我實在因為沒時間那個趙先生我再念三個數字三件事情一提三分之二的勞工領不到平均薪資中等薪資者十年來沒有加薪那"},{"start":777.594,"end":802.749,"text":"最重要的一點公司的營收表現好像有經濟是成長可是經濟成長的果實是極少數富人他們瓜分掉這一點你站在財政部站在負稅署長你責無旁貸你要去想辦法你不要動不動跟經濟部一個樣講一些天馬行空的可不可以"},{"start":804.392,"end":809.103,"text":"謝謝委員指教謝謝王世堅委員的質詢緊接著我們請李昆成委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"151956","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151956","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b25509f9a884ebc9e900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e630711919eddc1bc83facec775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"10:42:40 - 10:54:37","影片長度":"00:11:57","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 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中受僱人員的薪資的一個占比其實逐年的在降低當然它有很多原因就除了少子化以外"},{"start":51.235,"end":51.415,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":82.334,"end":100.12,"text":"政府如何提升就是企業的一個加薪的一個意願這個當然是非常重要可是企業要提高這個加薪的意願當然我們政府必須要有很大的一個誘因那我不曉得主計長你針對的就是說這樣子的一個有沒有你個人的一個看法"},{"start":100.88,"end":120.54,"text":"對,跟那個委員報告,謝謝那個主席委員,我也提供資料,因為我們都台南人都很注重這個事情,跟那個委員報告一下,這個受僱人員報酬,我必須跟委員報告一下,世界各國都有,受僱人員報酬的比例下降,世界各國都有這個趨勢,因為"},{"start":122.802,"end":141.889,"text":"一個報酬的話是要說資本報酬多少勞工報酬多少因為隨著經濟發展那個資本的累積越多所以那個資本的報酬就是像股利那一類的就會比例越多這個是沒有辦法這個世界各國都有趨勢我們是比其他國家比較起來"},{"start":142.549,"end":163.168,"text":"所以主計長你的說法就是說其實這個薪資的重新再分配其實就是在有錢人這30%的部分其實已經再分配到其他的比較大的一個企業對它有下降這種下降趨勢是世界各國的趨勢的那我們就要利用過長措施去把它這個不要把這個下緩的趨勢能夠減緩"},{"start":166.491,"end":167.351,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":196.38,"end":196.4,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":217.133,"end":217.153,"text":"賴惠員"},{"start":243.57,"end":243.63,"text":"主席"},{"start":258.647,"end":274.865,"text":"那薪水沒有占的是在真正需要的一個民眾裡頭那你怎麼樣就是說去看待就是這個分配不均的一個現狀有沒有提供一個更直接更好的一個方法可以快速的來解決呢?"},{"start":275.205,"end":300.642,"text":"跟那個委員報告一下對於真正弱勢的就像你這邊講的D1、D2這邊有可能是要那個所謂的那個最低工資的處理到另外一個就是說對於中間的這一群人我們是說因為薪資就是等於他的那個生產力的一個報酬那我們要讓他生產力能夠提高就是也許他"},{"start":301.242,"end":321.178,"text":"這是我們要給予像勞動部目前有做了很多職業的訓練讓他能夠適應的社會的變化能夠適應的環境能夠使他的生產力提高企業就會會雇用他然後這個是一個原因另外一個就是所謂的社會福利措施謝謝"},{"start":322.582,"end":347.158,"text":"社會福利措施做得更好謝謝主計長我想接著請教勞動部勞動部次長我想這個主計長講得非常的清楚了如何增加本國勞工薪資的增加有沒有機會我們的外勞的基本薪資跟本勞的基本薪資它是脫鉤的那有沒有機會就是說我們的"},{"start":347.858,"end":349.86,"text":"有關於第一個問題其實這個問題是應該是這樣講這個國際上面針對這個同工同酬這個部分是國際勞工組織一個很基本的標準那"},{"start":376.226,"end":403.348,"text":"我想這個問題其實台灣也討論很久大致上意思是說我們要跟國際上的這個要一樣的標準尤其現在各國都在徵詢這個事實上我們的這個外籍移工的薪資的標準是不是跟其他國家有沒有這個一致性你們應該很清楚那相對的就是說為什麼有很多外籍的一個移工他們其實他們不選擇來台灣"},{"start":404.949,"end":412.687,"text":"不是因為薪水不好是因為被剝削掉了非常多那有沒有機會去改善我想你們已經看出問題了"},{"start":414.438,"end":439.485,"text":"跟委員報告若是第二個問題有關於這個外勞在臺灣有所謂的重建費因為我們需要勞工嘛你這個勞工就是說如果你的外勞的薪資跟本勞的一個薪資是脫鉤的時候那事實上我們本勞會就是因為少子化了就是本勞他其實就是說在這個上班的這個醫院上其實會越來越低為什麼?時間沒到錢嘛"},{"start":440.444,"end":444.066,"text":"因為被分掉了他的工作機會也被分掉了然後還有他種種的福利也不見了其實我想好謝謝那個次長我想在這裡請教我們經濟部次長我想這個我們整個去中化的這一波的一個浪潮中那我們看到了很多很多就是這個我們的台商他們把工廠移到東南亞去了"},{"start":469.338,"end":477.466,"text":"那你們有沒有看到了這一波的一個浪潮裡頭有沒有機會把這一個就是整個廠商移回來台灣"},{"start":478.892,"end":505.265,"text":"我想剛剛我的報告裡面有提到我們有這個投資台灣三大方案那這幾年來事實上我們已經這個促進了將近2.2兆的一個投資回到台灣來有大概1400多家的一個企業進來我想這個就是在吸引說大家在提高這個生產韌性在全球佈局的時候也回到台灣來那當然我們希望回到台灣來是附加價值高的是比較高階的製造的一個部分回到台灣來做相關的一個生產這樣才能夠創造更高的價值"},{"start":506.886,"end":526.34,"text":"我想護高價值高的一個行業回到臺灣這個是我們一個目標 非常的一個正確可是相對的就是說在現在在我們臺灣本土的很多的一個公司工廠他們其實搶到了訂單也有單子可是問題就是說他的工人是不夠的"},{"start":527.381,"end":552.921,"text":"他的工人是不夠的這個在早期2000年的時候我們整體的一個外移我們把我們的這個傳統的一個產業我們移到中國去了移到東南亞去了那事實上這個工廠出去了勞工變窮了因為勞工沒有薪水了勞工沒有工作做了可是老闆變有錢了那相對的現階段我們其實是有單子沒有工人啊"},{"start":553.717,"end":580.842,"text":"那你們有沒有想到說有更好的一個方式可以來解決這些問題呢我想這個部分可以從兩個面向來跟委員做報告一個面向我跟委員報告事實上這幾年我們就在提升我們的一個製造業的一個所謂智慧製造的能力也就是說在同樣的這個勞力底下它可以生產更多的一個這個訂單事實上這幾年我們那個智慧製造也就是說更自動化的一個情形增加了很多企業"},{"start":582.042,"end":610.784,"text":"我當然知道現在甚至連AI的一個就是設備都進來了我跟你講所有的老闆他不會捨不得就是說對自己自己的工廠自己的公司下去投資現在重要的就是說你的工人他的工人是不夠的啊那有沒有什麼更好的一個誘因像有一個租稅的優惠的一個租稅的方式然後讓他們有辦法就是說把讓利給工人啊"},{"start":612.536,"end":635.114,"text":"給勞工的勞工的一個薪資你們有沒有想過這樣的一個問題你看你在這個2023年中小企業的白皮書裡頭你說加速要突破突破163萬人的一個創新高可是事實上就是加薪減稅的一個優惠每年申請的不到100家為什麼會這麼懸殊呢當然是我們的條件太嚴苛了"},{"start":636.67,"end":658.349,"text":"是 我剛剛我們有很多的委員也就教過這個部分就是現行的那個中小企業加薪的那個抵檢確實是條件太嚴苛了我們現在把它做一個放寬就不用受限那麼多的一個門檻這個是我們在努力對 我們現在就已經提出法案已經送到大院這邊來做審議那這個把原來的那些門檻都把它給放寬掉這樣子"},{"start":660.969,"end":684.054,"text":"在這裡本席要求經濟部跟互稅署合作就是分析現行的加熱的一個減稅的優惠的一個申請業者的具體營運的一個規模那依照不同的一個規模的業者提出新的一個租稅的一個方案那也評估是不是現在這個新聘僱還有徵聘的一個租稅的優惠之外還可以禁用"},{"start":684.674,"end":685.195,"text":"請一個院內提出書面報告"},{"start":706.663,"end":713.929,"text":"好 謝謝代會委員質詢我們待會在李昆城委員質詢之後休息10分鐘緊接著我們請王世堅委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"151955","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151955","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b57018a575ce5ab5d900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e630711919b2872d14095ffe895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"10:30:33 - 10:42:31","影片長度":"00:11:58","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-11"},"duration":718,"end_time":"2024-05-01T10:42:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T10:30:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":521,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（10時30分）謝謝主席，有請朱主計長、許政次還有林次長。"],["主席：請主計長、政次還有經濟部常務次長。"],["郭委員國文：我先請教勞動部的許政次。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["郭委員國文：你好。先請教許政次，今天是五一勞動節，我們一起在勞動節繼續勞動，今天也是為勞動者而勞動，我想請問一下，明年我們勞動節還會不會在這邊勞動？"],["許次長傳盛：謝謝委員的關心，有關於五一勞動節放假的事情，行政院有一個……"],["郭委員國文：所以明年會不會嘛？我就就教於您，依您的估計，您明年會不會來這邊勞動？"],["許次長傳盛：跟郭委員報告，站在勞動部立場，勞工的福利當然是越多越好……"],["郭委員國文：你希不希望明年五一勞動節就不要勞動？"],["許次長傳盛：我想站在勞動部的立場，我們希望這個是全國性……"],["郭委員國文：全國都一致放假，那明年呢？"],["許次長傳盛：這個我們會跟院裡面來繼續……"],["郭委員國文：太保守了，你就說你希望就好，但是院還是要做決定，是不是這樣的意思？"],["許次長傳盛：但我想說，站在勞動部立場，勞工的福利是越多越好……"],["郭委員國文：希望明年就開始。"],["許次長傳盛：如果有機會的話。"],["郭委員國文：好。我再請問你，最近本院有一位牛委員提了一個案子，說試用期三個月薪資打八折，如果基本工資兩萬七的話，打起來連22k都不到。請問許次長贊成這樣的提案嗎？這是中國大陸的版本，是不是？是臺灣要比照中國耶！你的看法怎麼樣？"],["許次長傳盛：謝謝委員關心，我想基本工資定在那個地方，以後是最低工資，這當然是有一個標準在那個地方，每一個受僱者基本上至少要有最低工資的保障。"],["郭委員國文：對，如果姑且不論基本工資的話，他說試用期要打八折，你同不同意？"],["許次長傳盛：我想這個部分對勞工的權益是有影響的。"],["郭委員國文：什麼影響？定錨影響，會往下拉是不是？"],["許次長傳盛：當然是這樣子，因為跟以前22k的道理很像。"],["郭委員國文：所以你是反對還是贊成？"],["許次長傳盛：站在勞動部的立場，我們真的沒辦法這樣子說他僱用期……僱用期有很多老闆會用這個名義……"],["郭委員國文：就是一直僱用，循環性的僱用……"],["許次長傳盛：就會變成有這樣子的惡性……"],["郭委員國文：就是3加333，一直試用下去，對不對？"],["許次長傳盛：這個我們要很慎重，避免有這樣子的附帶效應出來。"],["郭委員國文：會導致低薪化的可能，要避免類似這樣的提案嘛，對不對？"],["許次長傳盛：是。"],["郭委員國文：好，次長先稍微休息一下，我就教主計長。主計長，你今天的財富調查報告，本席跟你肯定。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：但是你們潘處長也在這邊，剛剛有委員說10年太久，我問一下，實務上你們認為要幾年？潘處長，能不能給主計長一個建議，最快大概幾年可以做一次？"],["朱主計長澤民：那個是跟他無關，應該是由政務官來講，不過……"],["郭委員國文：好，那你來回答。"],["朱主計長澤民：在我認為大概4年。"],["郭委員國文：4年就可以了，那以後我們儘量以4年為一期，好不好？"],["朱主計長澤民：是，謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：4年一期來做一個財富調查。","另外一個部分，主計長，其實今天占GDP占比的這個數字我是取自於央行的統計數字，然後我有做……"],["朱主計長澤民：這個是央行引用我們的。"],["郭委員國文：沒有，待會我再說，這個是引用你的，另外有央行的，我待會再說，你不用急。"],["朱主計長澤民：央行不可能……"],["郭委員國文：沒有，不是這個，你不用急，是另外一個，我讓你看一下，有一個聯合國的數字，人類發展指數超越日、韓，這是在2021年的時候你們去推估出來的，因為我們不是聯合國會員國。今年它又公布了，在2021年的時候我們是19名，你預估是超過日本22名、韓國26名，那是依照國民總收入來計算的，但為什麼今年公布你們沒有再次推估呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們要根據他們的公布以後，再去看看他們的內容，我們再來做……"],["郭委員國文：他們已經公布了。"],["朱主計長澤民：我們會去努力。"],["郭委員國文：主計長，他們已經公布了。"],["朱主計長澤民：所以我們會去……"],["郭委員國文：短期內多久可以把它推估出來？"],["朱主計長澤民：網路上已經有了，我們已經放在網路上了。"],["郭委員國文：網路上有了，你不用說一下在貧富差距的部分我們有沒有改善？"],["朱主計長澤民：我請……"],["郭委員國文：請處長，這時候就不是政務官來回答了。"],["朱主計長澤民：這個事實結果不能……"],["郭委員國文：事實結果怎麼樣？"],["蔡處長鈺泰：基本上，HDI的部分，我們就依照他們的做法。"],["郭委員國文：我們現在排行是上升，還下降？"],["蔡處長鈺泰：我印象中好像這次最新的是有下降。"],["郭委員國文：有下降，對不對？"],["蔡處長鈺泰：是。"],["郭委員國文：那就是代表我們貧富差距真的有比較差，那是事實，事實依據。好，我不要跟你吵這個，不然主計長待會兒又生氣，我會懷念有你的日子。"],["朱主計長澤民：我不會生氣……"],["郭委員國文：接下來，主席長，我讓你看一下央行的數字在哪裡，來看一下央行的數字。央行的數字在下一個圖表，央行的數字就是臺灣受僱者的GDP占比是43.9，然後從日本、韓國跟美國相對比較，人家都超過52%。營業額部分的GDP，我們的占比34.4，你看日本13.1，南韓22，美國24.6，也就是我們確實是偏高，因為GDP並不是一個共同的成果。你剛剛在解釋當中有個別的行業別或個案，我個人都同意，我相信你都說真的，但是大家還是含在整體的，GDP是共同的成果，所以在共同成果的情況底下，薪資是最關鍵的，在薪資最關鍵的情況底下，許次長，我讓你看一下我們過去8年對基本工資的努力，加上往前推，我用10年間來算好了，總共是32.6%。總薪資的數字，我依照主計總處的數據大概是25.9，但是中位數的部分，其實才16.6而已。也就是總體而言，數字上這樣比較，基本工資是政府唯一可以使用的政策工具，我可以理解，但是它有築底墊高的效用，但是築底墊高的效用都是相對低所得、低薪的所得者在勞動市場裡頭分工的。過往勞動部花了很多時間，包括你今天所做的，也就是青年如果進入勞動市場，也就是outsider如何進入insider的部分，你們做了很多努力，可是問題出在哪裡？出在insider，也就是現階段的勞動者現階段的薪資普遍上……我匡出兩種類型的人，看一下30到39歲，這些人增加的幅度最少，還有包括大專院校、研究所的部分。簡單的講，根據勞動部統計，基本工資直接受惠的勞工大概20%，但是薪資停滯、實質薪資負成長最嚴重的就是基本工資以上，還有中位數以下的這群人。次長，我希望你們要認真看待薪資問題。有關薪資問題，我說實在，勞保還有公務預算可以補貼，短期內沒有問題，可是低薪卻是長期以來受僱者的痛，這個是現實的問題，所以這個現實的問題，我們要去面對，包括中小企業、壯年世代、這些大專學生畢業之後，沒有感受到政府對他的照顧或favor。我意思是，接下來你們要去處理這一塊。","經濟部林全能次長，剛剛吳秉叡委員講到你們的方案，實在是很生氣，火氣都上來了，現階段的150%是用加薪抵稅的概念。我直接建議，你能不能跟勞動部做一個直接的建議？就直接補助，中位數以下，還有基本工資以上的這一群人政府最沒有照顧到，只要雇主加薪，加薪一部分減稅，你只要加1,000，我給你500，有沒有可能？採1比1的方式，用加薪專案有沒有可能？要不要研究看看？從有盈餘的企業開始，有沒有可能？"],["林次長全能：委員的想法是租稅加上補助……"],["郭委員國文：對，沒有錯。"],["林次長全能：可能會引導大家更願意去加薪。"],["郭委員國文：雙軌齊下才有效果。"],["林次長全能：我想委員的分析應該有合理性、正當性。"],["郭委員國文：謝謝你的肯定，那你的看法呢？可不可以去研究一下？"],["林次長全能：我們事實上對補助的部分，我剛剛有提到，我們有很多給企業的補助……"],["郭委員國文：那是另外，你不要repeat以前的事情。"],["林次長全能：這個部分有加分的作用。"],["郭委員國文：我要跟你談未來的。這個方案，你的看法怎麼樣？"],["林次長全能：我想這個部分可能也要看看勞動部的想法，我個人認為……"],["郭委員國文：我就是問你跟勞動部，你先講，不要浪費我的時間！"],["林次長全能：我覺得租稅跟補助同樣有一樣的效果。"],["郭委員國文：不一樣的效果，但是同時加起來不是更好嗎？你同不同意？我問你。你反對嗎？"],["林次長全能：當然這種加成的效果應該會存在。"],["郭委員國文：你認為要不要去研究一下？"],["林次長全能：可以研究。"],["郭委員國文：好，可以研究。許次長，你的看法呢？"],["許次長傳盛：非常感佩郭委員的意見。我們勞動部剛剛在報告裡面也有特別強調，我們會增加勞方的團體協約能力。"],["郭委員國文：那是另外一回事。"],["許次長傳盛：對，我是說在這部分，他可以有更大的power，可以……的能力……"],["郭委員國文：現在如果團體協商的能力非常強，政府的角色就不用那麼重了。"],["許次長傳盛：所以就輔導他……"],["郭委員國文：現在就不夠強，所以才希望用政府角色來加強。"],["許次長傳盛：對，就輔導他可以跟老闆……"],["郭委員國文：不是輔導！我現在跟你說，你要不要跟經濟部去處理這一塊？"],["許次長傳盛：對，剛剛委員的提議，我們當然在這個部分可以做一個這樣的研究。"],["郭委員國文：用一個專案，好不好？用一個加薪專案，我一個range給你，你評估起來大概多少人，我算出這個人數大概350萬人，好不好？"],["許次長傳盛：是。"],["郭委員國文：好好研究一下，好不好？"],["許次長傳盛：好。"],["郭委員國文：五一勞動節，我看勞動部今天也沒有送給勞工什麼大禮，你至少promise這件事情。"],["許次長傳盛：我們回去可以把委員的意見納入研究。"],["郭委員國文：好，納入研究，一個月給本席答復，可以嗎？"],["許次長傳盛：可以。"],["郭委員國文：最近很多人都談到假期，身為假期專家的黃司長也在這邊，我現在看到大家有在談婚假、喪假，還有包括照顧假。總結來講，這是家屬假，就是跟家屬有相關的，當你成為一家人，你要照顧家人，勞工者在勞動市場之外的時間要照顧家人的時候，這是家屬假。老實講，公務人員跟勞工的家屬假不應該一國兩制，我請問一下黃司長，勞工的假期多久沒有修了？"],["黃司長維琛：有相當的時間了。"],["郭委員國文：應該超過30年了？"],["黃司長維琛：超過10年了。"],["郭委員國文：超過10年而已嗎？"],["黃司長維琛：對，因為最近有一些比較小型的修正……"],["郭委員國文：小型修改不算，我看主要的應該有的都超過30年了，主要的假別應該超過30年。我請勞動部好好去研擬一下，勞工跟跟公務人員基本上都受僱，只是受僱私部門跟公部門不一樣，勞動都有同樣的尊嚴，不應該一國兩制，應該比照辦理，假期應該一樣。另外，家屬都一樣，家庭的價值怎麼會不一樣呢？對不對？喪假應該要一樣，婚假也應該都要一樣才對。同樣的照顧假應該給薪的就應該給薪，麻煩勞動部從這部分來進行努力、研究看看，好不好？"],["黃司長維琛：我們會跟相關團體一起來共同討論。"],["郭委員國文：好，麻煩你，一個月，好不好？可以嗎？"],["黃司長維琛：可以。"],["郭委員國文：司長謝謝，次長謝謝，主席謝謝。"],["主席（王委員世堅代）：郭國文召集人質詢結束。","現在請賴惠員委員發言，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：(10時42分)謝謝主席。有請主計長、經濟部次長，還有勞動部次長。"],["主席（郭委員國文）：請主計長、經濟部次長、勞動部次長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["賴委員惠員：主計長，我想我們臺南沾了你很大的光，你真的是我們的臺南之光。今天的議題是如何改善受僱人員的報酬占GDP比重偏低的現狀，怎麼樣創造勞工跟企業雙贏。針對這個問題，前面很多委員都問了很多。在GDP中，受僱人員薪資的占比其實逐年在降低，當然有很多原因，除了少子化以外，還有就是薪資不平衡。不正常變動的原因在你看來會是什麼樣的狀況？現在螢幕上的是疫情期間的狀況，我們看到受僱人員報酬占GDP的比例創新低，貧富差距創了10年來新高，政府如何提升企業加薪的意願，當然非常重要。可是要提高企業加薪的意願，政府必須要有很大的誘因。主計長，針對這樣的情形，你個人有沒有看法？"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝主席、委員，我也提供資料，因為我們都是臺南人，都很注重這個事情。有關受僱人員報酬，我必須跟委員報告一下，世界各國都有受僱人員報酬比例下降的趨勢，因為報酬是要說資本報酬多少、勞工報酬多少，隨著經濟發展，資本的累積越多，資本的報酬就像股利那一類的就會比例越多，這個是沒有辦法的，世界各國都有這樣的趨勢，我們跟其他國家比較起來……"],["賴委員惠員：所以主計長你的說法就是，有關薪資的重新再分配，有錢人30%的部分其實已經再分配到其他比較大的企業？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，它有這種下降趨勢是世界各國的趨勢，我們就要利用各種措施減緩這種下降的趨勢，就像最低工資或者是社會福利措施，讓他的薪資雖然下降，但可支配所得能夠增加，這也是執政黨最近幾年的努力，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：是，主計長，就像你講的，這樣子的通膨是全世界性的，貧富的懸殊也是全世界性的，大家的實體總薪資明顯都在下降，可是最苦的就是這些基層的老百姓，除了這30%以外的70%，民眾體感上物價通膨更加明顯。","我們從勞動部這3年的數據來看，這三大行業不管是在工業及服務業，還是在工業、服務業，你們把它分為實薪，他的所得雖然是五萬多，可是他最初的基本薪資還是停留在兩萬七千多塊，為什麼服務業呈現這麼多的下降趨勢？","我們再看到下一頁，民眾薪資的漲幅跟不上CPI的漲幅，實際的薪資變薄了，當然我們看到一個解決的方式就是要抑制CPI的增加速度，最直接就是提供勞工的薪資；再下一頁，主計長，我想在這裡請教你，薪水增加最多的本來就是這些高薪的30%民眾，但薪水沒有漲的是真正需要的民眾，你怎麼樣看待這個分配不均的現狀？有沒有提供一個更直接、更好的方法可以快速地解決呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，對於真正弱勢的，就像你這邊講的D1、D2這邊，有可能是要用所謂的最低工資處理。另外，對於中間的這一群人，因為薪資等於他的生產力報酬，我們要讓他的生產力能夠提高，也許我們要給予像勞動部目前做了很多職業訓練，讓他能夠適應社會的變化、能夠適應環境、能夠使他的生產力提高，企業就會僱用他，這是一個原因；另外一個就是所謂的社會福利措施，謝謝。"],["賴委員惠員：好，社會福利措施做得更好，謝謝主計長。","接著我想請教勞動部，勞動部次長，我想主計長講得非常清楚有關如何增加本國勞工的薪資，有沒有機會我們外勞的基本薪資跟本勞的基本薪資是脫勾的？那有沒有機會移工的基本薪資可以確實透明化，而沒有那麼多仲介業剝削掉他們的基本薪資，有沒有機會？"],["許次長傳盛：謝謝賴委員，關於第一個問題，其實這個問題應該是這樣講，國際上面針對同工同酬這部分是國際勞工組織一個很基本的標準，這個問題其實臺灣也討論很久，大致上意思是說，我們要跟國際上一樣的標準，尤其現在各國都在爭取這個……"],["賴委員惠員：可是事實上，我們外籍移工的薪資標準跟其他國家有沒有一致性，你們應該很清楚啊！相對的就是說，為什麼有很多外籍移工不選擇來臺灣，不是因為薪水不好，是因為被剝削掉了非常多！那有沒有機會去改善？我想你們已經看出問題了。"],["許次長傳盛：跟委員報告，如果是第二個問題，有關於外勞在臺灣有所謂的仲介費或其他的部分……"],["賴委員惠員：因為我們需要勞工嘛！如果外勞薪資跟本勞薪資是脫勾的時候，事實上，我們本勞因為少子化了，而且本勞在上班的意願上其實會越來越低，為什麼？賺不到錢嘛！為什麼賺不到錢？因為被分掉了，他的工作機會也被分掉了，還有他種種的福利也不見了。好，謝謝次長。","我想在這裡請教經濟部次長，在這一波去中化的浪潮中，我們看到了很多臺商把工廠移到東南亞去了，那在這一波浪潮裡頭有沒有機會把整個廠商移回來臺灣？"],["林次長全能：我剛剛的報告裡面有提到，我們有投資臺灣三大方案嘛，事實上這幾年來我們已經促進了將近2.2兆的投資回到臺灣來，大概有一千四百多家的企業進來，我想這個就是吸引大家在提高生產韌性、全球布局的時候也回到臺灣來，當然我們希望回到臺灣來是附加價值高的，是比較高階的製造部分回到臺灣做相關生產，這樣才能夠創造更高的價值。"],["賴委員惠員：次長，我想附加價值高的行業回到臺灣，這是我們的目標、非常地正確！可是相對的，現在我們臺灣本土的很多公司、工廠其實搶到了訂單、也有單子，但問題就是工人不夠，它的工人是不夠的！這個在早期2000年的時候整體外移，我們把傳統產業移到中國去了、移到東南亞去了，事實上工廠出去了、勞工變窮了，因為勞工沒有薪水了、勞工沒有工作做了，可是老闆變有錢了；相對地，現階段我們其實有單子、沒有工人，那你們有沒有想到更好的方式可以來解決這些問題呢？"],["林次長全能：我想這個部分可以從兩個面向來跟委員做報告，一個面向，事實上這幾年我們就在提升製造業所謂智慧製造的能力，也就是說，在同樣的勞力底下可以生產更多的訂單，這幾年智慧製造，也就是更自動化的情形增加了很多，企業在勞力不增加情況之下……"],["賴委員惠員：我當然知道，現在甚至連AI的設備都進來了，我跟你講，所有的老闆不會捨不得對自己的工廠、自己的公司投資，現在重要的是，他的工人不夠啊！那有沒有什麼更好的誘因？例如租稅優惠的方式，讓他們有辦法讓利給工人、給勞工薪資，你們有沒有想過這樣一個問題？","你看你們在2023年中小企業白皮書裡面說：家數突破163萬人創新高。可是事實上每年申請加薪、減稅優惠的不到100家，為什麼會這麼懸殊呢？當然是我們的條件太嚴苛了！"],["林次長全能：是，剛剛有很多的委員也就教過，這個部分就是現行的中小企業加薪抵減確實是條件太嚴苛了，我們現在把它放寬，就不用受限那麼多的門檻，這個是……"],["賴委員惠員：所以會放寬嗎？"],["林次長全能：我們在努力，我們現在已經提出法案，也送到大院這邊做審議，把原來的那些門檻都放寬掉。"],["賴委員惠員：謝謝次長。本席在這裡要求經濟部跟賦稅署合作，分析現行加薪減稅優惠申請業者的具體營運規模，依照不同規模的業者提出新的租稅方案；那也評估現在除了新聘僱還有增聘的租稅優惠之外，是不是還可以針對進用二次就業或是再次就業勞工的業者，你們還可以提供更好的優惠方案？那也重新審查現有的優惠條件裡頭，將加薪利多釋放在薪資比較低的勞工，請1個月內提出書面報告，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝賴惠員委員的質詢。我們待會在李坤城委員質詢之後休息10分鐘。","緊接著我們請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-11","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王世堅","李坤城","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","顏寬恒","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra 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比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質\n薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":2.14034375,"end":7.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.544718750000001,"end":7.624718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":8.08034375,"end":10.375343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.497843750000001,"end":9.700343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.535343750000003,"end":14.57721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":12.56909375,"end":15.015968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.83034375,"end":16.011593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":16.21409375,"end":16.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":17.00721875,"end":17.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":18.15471875,"end":32.869718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.64159375,"end":35.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.48534375,"end":41.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.290343750000005,"end":43.33221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":41.931593750000005,"end":46.133468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.133468750000006,"end":51.46596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":51.46596875,"end":54.807218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.84096875,"end":59.954093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":57.77721875,"end":59.835968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.62909375,"end":76.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":69.55596875,"end":69.91034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":73.25159375,"end":74.12909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":76.18784375,"end":76.35659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.35659375,"end":76.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":76.96409375,"end":84.70971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":85.55346875000001,"end":86.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":86.97096875000001,"end":93.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":95.50971875,"end":97.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":97.85534375,"end":98.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.32784375,"end":98.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":99.13784375,"end":100.03221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.03221875000001,"end":100.28534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":100.28534375000001,"end":100.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.72409375000001,"end":100.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":100.97721875,"end":101.02784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.02784375,"end":101.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":101.04471875,"end":101.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.06159375,"end":101.09534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":101.09534375000001,"end":101.34846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":101.65221875,"end":101.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.66909375,"end":102.41159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.69846875,"end":110.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.05159375000001,"end":117.04221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":116.06346875000001,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.02909375,"end":120.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":120.83909375,"end":120.95721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.95721875000001,"end":140.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.34846875,"end":128.39909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":128.39909375000002,"end":128.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.92221875,"end":129.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":129.93471875,"end":131.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":139.55346875,"end":142.27034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.27034375,"end":142.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":142.33784375000002,"end":142.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.37159375000002,"end":144.02534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":142.97909375,"end":147.95721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.10909375,"end":152.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":151.68659375000001,"end":152.42909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.42909375000002,"end":152.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":152.61471875,"end":171.81846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.67784375000002,"end":154.53846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.09909375,"end":158.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":165.47346875000002,"end":165.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":165.49034375000002,"end":165.99659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":171.88596875000002,"end":172.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":172.18971875,"end":179.09159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.98221875000002,"end":177.38721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.80909375000002,"end":182.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":181.90971875000002,"end":182.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.95596875,"end":186.68534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":183.05721875,"end":183.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_05","start":185.588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待會你又生氣我會懷念你的日子"},{"start":289.712,"end":306.022,"text":"接下來主計長我讓你看一下央行的數字在哪裡我來看一下央行的數字央行的數字在下一個圖表央行的數字就是說台灣受僱者的GDP占比是43.9然後從日本、韓國跟美國相對比較人家都超過52%那營業額的部分的GDP我們的占比"},{"start":312.84,"end":331.657,"text":"這個34.4你看日本成13.1南韓22日本、美國24.6也就是說我們確實是偏高因為GDP並不是一個共同的成果嘛你剛剛在解釋當中有個別的行業比如說個案這個我個人都同意啊我相信你都說真的但是大家還是談整體的嘛GDP是共同的成果嘛"},{"start":332.037,"end":347.417,"text":"所以在這共同的成果的情況底下薪資是最關鍵的嘛那薪資最關鍵的情況底下那個許次長我讓你看一下我們過去8年的基本工資的努力加上往前推我用10年間來算好了總共是32.6%"},{"start":349.42,"end":377.578,"text":"但是總薪資的數字依照主計數的數據大概是25.9但是中位數的部分其實才16.6而已16.6而已也就是說總體而言這數字上就這樣比較這樣比較基本工資是政府唯一可以使用的政策工具我可以理解但是它有足底墊高的效用但是足底墊高的效用其實都是相對低所得低薪的一個所得者在勞動市場裡頭分工的"},{"start":378.038,"end":400.67,"text":"那過往呢勞動部發了很多時間包括你今天所做的也就是說青年如果進入勞動市場也就是outside如果進入insider的部分你們做了很多努力可是問題是出在哪裡出在insider也就是說現階段的勞動者他現階段的薪資普遍上我框出兩種類型的人來看一下喔30到39歲喔這些人"},{"start":403.231,"end":422.393,"text":"的這個增加的幅度最少還有包括大專院校研究所的部分簡單的講根據勞動部的統計我們的基本工資直接受益勞工簡單的講大概20%但是薪資停滯實質薪資負成長最嚴重的就是基本工資以上還有中位數以下的這群人"},{"start":423.274,"end":439.344,"text":"市長我希望啊我們要認真看待這一個薪資的問題啊這個薪資的問題我說實在的勞保我們還有公務預算可以補貼短期內沒有問題可是低薪啊卻是長期以來受僱者的痛"},{"start":440.883,"end":455.254,"text":"這個是現實的問題所以說這個現實的問題我們要去面對這些包括中小企業壯年世代這些大專學生畢業之後他沒有感受到政府對他的一個照顧或favor嘛"},{"start":455.794,"end":479.141,"text":"所以我意思是說接下來你們要去處理這一塊那經濟部林全仁市長剛剛吳秉穎委員講到你們方案實在是宏偉大都嚇壞了你現階段部分的150%這個是用加薪抵稅的概念我做一個直接建議你能不能跟勞動部做一個直接的建議"},{"start":480.987,"end":507.41,"text":"就直接補助啦什麼就中位數以下還有基本工資以上這一群人政府沒有照顧到的只要你雇主加薪你加薪一部分減稅對不對你只要加一千我給你五百有沒有可能一比一的方式用加薪專案有沒有可能要不要研究看看是從那一個那個那個有盈餘的企業開始有沒有可能"},{"start":510.227,"end":537.086,"text":"委員的想法是租稅加上這個補助對沒有錯引導大家更願意去加薪這樣子才有效果那我想委員的分析應該有他的一個這個那你的看法呢謝謝你的肯定那你的看法呢我們可以去研究一下我們事實上對這個補助的部分我剛剛有提到說我們有很多的給企業的這個那是另外啦那這個做沒加分的這個作用我要跟你談未來的這個方案啦你的看法怎麼樣"},{"start":538.943,"end":561.437,"text":"我想這個部分可能也要看看勞動部的想法我就是要問你跟勞動部你先講啊不要浪費我時間我覺得租稅跟補助同樣有一樣效果不一樣的效果但是同時加起來不是更好嗎你同不同意啊我問你你反對嗎當然這種加成的效果應該會存在那你認為要不要去研究一下可以做研究好可以做研究市長來許市長來"},{"start":563.462,"end":563.922,"text":"你的看法呢?"},{"start":594.002,"end":622.707,"text":"對 剛剛委員提議我們當然這個部分可以做一個這樣子的一個用一個專案好不好用一個加薪專案我用一個Range給你你評估起來大概多少人我這算出這個人數大概350萬人啦好不好好好研究一下好不好就五一勞動節嘛我看你們勞動部今天有沒有送給勞工什麼大禮啊你至少Promise這件事情嘛我們可以回來把這個委員的意見來納入研究好 納入研究一個月給本席答覆哈可以嗎可以可以好 接下來那個市長你慢點走我覺得接下來最近很多人都談到假期"},{"start":623.741,"end":650.425,"text":"這個假期專家市長在這邊啦黃市長在這邊啦我現在看到了大家有在談婚假、商假還有包括照顧假這個我總結跟大家來講這是家屬假就是跟家屬有相關的單位成為一家人你要照顧家人勞工者你在勞動市場之外時間要照顧家人的時候這是家屬假這個家屬假喔老實講公務人員跟勞工不應該一國兩制啦那我請問一下黃市長我們這個勞工的假期都多久沒有休了"},{"start":652.089,"end":670.343,"text":"有相當的時間了應該超過30年而已超過10年了超過10年而已嗎那因為它最近有一些比較小型的修正小型修改那不算啦我看主要的應該有的都超過30年了啦主要的價別應該主要超過30年我請勞動部好好去研擬一下"},{"start":671.444,"end":697.993,"text":"勞工跟公務人員基本上都受僱只是受僱國家是部門跟公部門不一樣而已勞動都是同樣的尊嚴不應該有一國兩制應該比照辦理應該假期應該就一樣另外家屬都一樣啊家庭的價值怎麼會不一樣呢對不對商價也應該要一樣婚價也應該都要一樣才對嘛那同樣的照顧家應該給薪的就應該給薪嘛麻煩勞動部從這部分來進行努力研究看看好不好"},{"start":698.462,"end":706.346,"text":"是,我們待會跟相關的團體一起來動容討論。好,麻煩你喔,那一個月好不好?可以嗎?可以。市長,謝謝。市長,謝謝。主席,謝謝。郭文、趙吉倫的質詢結束,現在請賴會員、委員、"}]}},{"id":"151954","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151954","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b057be6f79f11e5be900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e630711919b72c32b5d42b44535ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"10:17:08 - 10:30:27","影片長度":"00:13:19","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-11"},"duration":799,"end_time":"2024-05-01T10:30:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T10:17:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":440,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時17分）謝謝召委，我可不可以請主計長？"],["主席：請主計長。"],["李委員彥秀：主計長好，快退休了，要讓你多講一點……"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我很愉快的打了一條紅領帶來，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：好，我相信你一定可以好好規劃你的退休生活，做一些自己想做的事情。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝委員的關心。"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，你是北漂到臺北來工作的對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：我是……"],["李委員彥秀：你是臺南人，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：我18歲就在臺北工作了，我離家很久……"],["李委員彥秀：對，我知道你念臺南白河的竹門國小，國中、高中都在臺南，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：對、對、對，我跟賴委員是……"],["李委員彥秀：你是大學之後才念政大財稅系，然後念研究所……"],["朱主計長澤民：是的、是的。"],["李委員彥秀：然後北漂留在臺北工作，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：對、對、對。"],["李委員彥秀：所以你很幸運也很努力，工作8年之後就在臺北市買了一間房子，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，我看看我是什麼時候買的……"],["李委員彥秀：我看到你的報稅資料，你工作8年之後……"],["朱主計長澤民：我自己都忘記了，謝謝委員提醒。"],["李委員彥秀：你自己有一間房子，在民國72年買一間房子，你也很念舊，72年買的房到現在還在……"],["朱主計長澤民：對、對。"],["李委員彥秀：當時買一坪多少錢，你還記得嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：一坪大概十萬多塊，在大安路，現在舊房子有人說要跟我出八十幾萬，謝謝……"],["李委員彥秀：十萬塊，好，現在大概八十幾萬……"],["朱主計長澤民：委員要嗎？"],["李委員彥秀：當時買的時候，你年輕的時候……"],["朱主計長澤民：我跟賴委員、主席是同樣故鄉的，都是努力向上的人，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：對、對，當時你們那個年代，年輕人只要努力向上都有機會賺到錢，也有機會打造你的夢想、完成你的夢想買一間房子，當時買十萬塊，現在已經漲到八十幾萬……"],["朱主計長澤民：我沒有夢想啦！我只是努力去兼課付貸款，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：也有付貸款？好，那我們現在年輕人努力工作8年，也付貸款，會不會有同樣的結果，我們等一下來看。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：我們來看下一張簡報，主計長，我要跟你討論的其實並不是風花雪月，因為我大學念的也是經濟系，所以我對於數字其實有一定的想法跟敏感度。主計長，我們昨天公布了家庭財富分配的狀況，剛才你也回答了賴委員，有關於家庭財富分配的統計狀況，針對30年前跟30年後，我們看到這個數據，你有什麼感想？為什麼你會突然在這兩、三年想做這件事情？"],["朱主計長澤民：因為我們有所得的調查、所得的分配，所得的分配是個流量，但是我們的存量一直缺乏，中研院朱敬一院士也鼓勵我做，我希望我在這8年之內把它當成一個使命來做，所以我必須……"],["李委員彥秀：那你看到這個數字的結果，你的感想、你的結論是什麼？"],["朱主計長澤民：我的意思是我們有努力的空間，可是相對於其他國家，我們是比較平均的，不過我必須跟委員報告，在使用這個資料的時候要特別注意，就像我剛才所講的，我三十多年前的房子是用一坪十萬塊買，四十幾坪是四百多萬，我現在住在裡面，它是值三千多萬，可是我房子越住越舊，所以我財富由四百多萬增加到三千多萬，事實上使用這個數字要特別注意，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：感謝主計長，其實我們要突顯的是幾個問題，看到這個數據，其實前面20%的家庭累積的財富平均是5,133萬，最底端20%只有77萬，財富的差距高達66.9倍，其實也突顯出家庭的貧富差距事實上是非常高的，我也關注到潘處長做這個普查也非常的辛苦……"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["李委員彥秀：但是潘處長昨天也講過，30年前不少南部的人北漂工作置產，如果留在南部的話，房地產發展區域不同，財富就會有不同的差距，他是不是拿你來當做model講這個結論？"],["朱主計長澤民：您的意思是什麼？"],["潘處長寧馨：跟委員報告……"],["李委員彥秀：昨天分析這個數字的時候，他講到很多人北漂，所以過去有置產，我就直接想到主計長你的案例，所以他是用你來做案例嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有啦！我的案例給他用也無所謂，因為我剛才講，我以前的房子400萬，現在是三千多萬，我還是住在裡面……"],["李委員彥秀：主計長……"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["李委員彥秀：如果這樣講的話，那你要怪當時沒有北漂的人、沒有在臺北買房子的人或沒有投資股票的人都吃虧了喔？"],["朱主計長澤民：不是這個意思啦！每個人都不一樣啊！我的同學、甚至是我的學生都比我有錢耶！而且都坐在下面……"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，你從事公務人員，無論你在哪個階段，你這一輩子大多數的時間幾乎都是公務人員……"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["李委員彥秀：其實公務人員做財稅也好、資源分配的合理性也好，包括召委今天排這個法案也好，去年費鴻泰召委也排過同樣的法案……"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得財富分配的公平正義是政府每一個單位共同的責任……"],["朱主計長澤民：對，委員講的對……"],["李委員彥秀：不是說我有機會選擇到臺北來……我覺得每一個年輕人都應該可以有他的夢想、選擇他喜歡的工作、選擇他喜歡住在哪一個環境，現在臺灣的經濟已經發展到失溫的成長，政府在說現在經濟很好，但是現在大多數還在工作的人，從20歲到40歲的很多人是沒有感的、無感的，所以我才會說我們現在經濟成長陷入失溫成長，特別是年輕人的相對剝奪感越來越高……"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，委員的用心很好，所以我們才要有財富分配，而且每幾年要做一次，不必每年做，因為財富是一個存量，存量在短期間不會變化很大，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：所以主計長，讓年輕人打造一個更好的臺灣夢……"],["朱主計長澤民：是的，所以我昨天去……"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得是我們每一個人的責任，賴清德也說要讓臺灣打造成一個適合作夢、悠然過日子的地方，但是以今天財富分配的狀況，年輕人還能說有臺灣夢嗎？臺灣資源分配狀況的不合理性，我覺得現在年輕人要打造像你那個年代，打拼6年、8年就可以買房子，恐怕是很困難的，這個是我今天看到你們最近做出來的研究數據報告的結論。"],["朱主計長澤民：我同意委員的觀點，所以我們要繼續做這些統計資料，讓委員或者政府官員作為一個決策的參考，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：但是主計長，對於未來決策的參考，剛才賴委員有講，我覺得30年做一次是真的有一點久……"],["朱主計長澤民：我們不會……"],["李委員彥秀：10年應該合理的做一次啦！然後剛才你回答賴士葆委員說他們可能投資錯誤，其實主計長，你有機會退休之後到各個家庭、平常家庭去看看，不要說理財分配，他們是根本沒有錢去做理財啦！我要直接告訴你這件事。"],["朱主計長澤民：我跟委員報告，因為我剛才漏了一項，有很多人落入到最低的百分之一，是因為他是資產減掉負債，就是他資產高負債也高，而他負債高就是代表他要去銀行借錢，他沒有資產，人家也不會借給他，所以他就是財務槓桿操作過度，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，財務槓桿操作在有錢人跟沒有錢人的作法是完全不一樣，沒錢的人只能借錢去過生活，沒有所謂拿來做財務槓桿的空間，我要提醒你。"],["朱主計長澤民：是的，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，我第二個問題還是要回歸到今天的主題，雖然時間剩下的有限，但是我看到無論是國發會或經濟部的報告都說，現在受僱人員分配比較少的原因，最主要是因為雇主或自營業的人占了百分之十五，這是經濟部的報告，沒有計入營業盈餘，所以受僱人員的報酬比有受影響。國發會的報告也是如此。但是主計處的報告就比較完整，它說雇主也好、未領酬勞的家屬跟自營業者所創造的附加價值，我們很難區分它到底是來自於勞動或資本。所以主計長，你認同經濟部跟國發會的報告，還是你覺得你的報告比較完整？"],["朱主計長澤民：它的內容講得並沒有錯，我們只是說因為這個很難區分，所以在國際間的慣例都均……"],["李委員彥秀：但是主計長，我覺得這個是一份報告各自解讀，同樣的報告，無論是今天的召委排了，過去國民黨的召委費鴻泰也排了，可見對於受僱人員的薪資、經濟的紅利沒有合理的分配給所有的勞工，朝野黨派的委員都覺得這件事情是非常嚴重也值得重視的，所以各單位無論是主計處、經濟部、國發會，在這件事情上，這不能只拿一個數據來告訴我們說，這個是數字，沒有計算很完整，然後你們就拍拍屁股什麼都不做。去年同樣的專案報告排了一次，今年又排一次，但是如果在這個位置上，你們有能力可以做決策、可以做更好的社會資源分配或者是企業轉型，而你們卻沒有做任何事情的話，我覺得臺灣的勞工或受僱人員永遠沒有辦法享受到所謂的經濟紅利。","所以我在這邊，我只叫主計長出來，我覺得你的報告回答比較完整，但是我認為比較遺憾的是，如果經濟部跟國發會只是拿一個數字來搪塞，說這個是因為我們的計算沒有把其他的雇主成員納入所謂的報酬的話，那我覺得我們永遠沒有辦法改善現在受僱人員分配過低的問題，這是一個主要的原因，更何況過去十年來，受僱人員薪資比事實上是逐年降低，你不要拿過去其他的比例說，過去臺灣自僱的員工也好，受僱的員工也好，皆長期有這樣子的狀態，這個結構長期都是如此，但是在GDP占比上，受僱人員卻是過去十年來的新低。主計長，你同意我的說法吧？我們跟自己比就知道了嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：我們勞工的比例，現在是因為少子化，勞工比例是慢慢往下的趨勢的話，這個比例將來仍然可能會是這種現象，因為就業人數變少了，謝謝。他不是失業，而是說……"],["李委員彥秀：主計長，人數少跟受僱人員薪資占比是兩件事情。"],["朱主計長澤民：對啦。"],["李委員彥秀：但是我們要強調的是受僱人員，就是我們的勞工其實沒有分配到經濟紅利。"],["朱主計長澤民：剛才委員很關心的，我們要利用各種重分配的政策，讓弱勢的人能夠得到更多的……"],["李委員彥秀：但是從經濟部跟國發會今天回答的報告來看，如果你們還在搪塞，還在找幾個理由來美化這些數字、來去強調這個數字其實不夠準確的話，我覺得受僱人員永遠就是在最低的底端，我們永遠沒有機會把這群人拉高，跟南韓來比，過去南韓的經濟成長率還沒有臺灣好，但是他們受僱人員GDP占比比臺灣好太多了，我想這個數字，央行剛好打你們的臉。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：你好好看一看。"],["朱主計長澤民：央行不會打臉我啦，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：打臉國發會跟經濟部，請大家好好看一下。"],["主席：好，謝謝彥秀委員。","接著請郭國文委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-11","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王世堅","李坤城","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","顏寬恒","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","黃秀芳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就\n「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 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分配所得的分配是一個流量但是我們的存量一直缺乏這個那我們跟像我跟"},{"start":176.403,"end":177.564,"text":"那你看到這個數字的結果你的感想你的結論"},{"start":191.912,"end":218.232,"text":"我的意思是說我們有努力的空間可是我們相對其他國家我們是比較平均的不過我必須跟委員報告在使用這個資料的時候要特別注意就像我剛才所講的我30多年前的房子是用一坪10萬塊買那個40幾坪是400多萬我現在住在裡面它都是值3000多萬可是我房子愈租愈舊所以我財富有400多萬"},{"start":219.213,"end":220.294,"text":"財富的差距高達66.9倍"},{"start":245.97,"end":272.659,"text":"這個66.9倍其實也凸顯出家庭的這個貧富差距其實上是非常高的那我也關注到我們的潘處長其實做這個普查其實也非常的辛苦但是潘處長昨天也講過說30年前不少南部的人北漂工作自產如果留在南部的話房地產啊發展區域不同財富就會有不同的差距他是不是拿你來當作model來講這個結論"},{"start":274.728,"end":274.928,"text":"主席長"},{"start":302.702,"end":329.927,"text":"那如果這樣講的話那你要怪當時沒有北漂的人沒有在台北買房子的人或沒有投資股票的人都吃虧囉不是這個意思啦個人的不一樣啊我的同學裡面甚至我學生裡面他們都比我有錢啊主計長我要講的是你從事公務人員吼無論你在哪個階段你這一輩子幾乎大多數的時間都是公務人員其實公務人員"},{"start":331.807,"end":352.162,"text":"做財稅也好資源分配的合理性也好包括昭緯今天排這個法案也好其實去年費鴻泰昭緯也排過同樣的法案就是說我覺得財富分配的公平正義是政府每一個單位大家共同的責任不是說我有機會我選擇到台北來"},{"start":355.484,"end":373.293,"text":"那我覺得每一個年輕人都應該可以有他的夢想選擇他喜歡的工作選擇他喜歡住在哪一個環境我們現在台灣的經濟已經發展到失溫的成長政府在說現在經濟很好但是大多數的"},{"start":374.473,"end":399.469,"text":"現在還在工作從20歲到40歲的很多人是沒有感的是無感的所以我才會說我們現在經濟成長陷入失溫成長特別是年輕人的相對剝奪感越來越高委員的用心很好所以我們才要有財富分配而且每幾年要做一次不必每年做因為財富是一個存量存量在短期間不會變化很大謝謝"},{"start":400.62,"end":420.631,"text":"所以主計長這個讓年輕人打造一個更好的臺灣夢我覺得是我們每一個人的責任賴清德也說要讓臺灣打造成一個適合做夢、悠然過日子的地方但是以今天財富分配的狀況"},{"start":421.952,"end":431.697,"text":"年輕人還能說有台灣夢嗎?說我們資源分配的狀況不合理性我覺得現在年輕人要打造像你那個年代86年、80年就可以買房子我覺得恐怕是很困難的這個是我今天看到最近你們做的這個數據報告、研究報告出來我的結論"},{"start":445.205,"end":473.361,"text":"我同意委員的觀點所以我們要繼續做這些統計資料讓委員或者政府官員作為一個決策的參考但是主計長未來這個決策參考剛才賴委員有講我覺得30年做一次是真的有點久我們不會展明應該合理的做一次啦然後剛才你回答這個賴氏寶委員說這個他們可能投資錯誤其實主計長你有機會退休之後到各個家庭平常家庭去看看"},{"start":474.341,"end":499.382,"text":"不要說理財分配他們可能連理財根本沒有錢去做理財啦我要直接告訴你這件事情我跟那個委員報告一下因為我剛才錄了一下有很多人繞入到最低的百分之五因為他是資產減掉負債他資產高也負債也高他負債高就是代表說你要去銀行借錢你沒有資產人家也不會借給你所以他就是什麼財務槓桿操作過度謝謝"},{"start":503.171,"end":511.896,"text":"主席長財務槓桿操作在有錢人跟沒有錢人的做法是完全不一樣財務槓桿沒錢人只能借錢去過生活沒有所謂來做財務槓桿的空間我要提醒你主席長我第二個問題還是要回歸到今天的主題雖然時間剩下的有限但是"},{"start":526.544,"end":540.774,"text":"我看到無論是國發會或經濟部的報告都說我們現在受僱人員的分配比較少的原因最主要是因為僱主或自營業的人呢占了15%這是經濟部的報告沒有納入沒有記錄這個營業盈餘所以我們受僱人員的報酬比有受影響國發會的報告也是如此但是主計處的報告就比較完整他說"},{"start":556.284,"end":584.526,"text":"因為我們的僱主也好為領酬勞的家屬跟自營業者所創造的附加價值我們很難去區分他到底是來自於勞動或資本所以主計長你認同經濟部跟國發會的報告還是你覺得你的報告比較完整他的那個內容講的並沒有錯那我們只是說因為這個事是什麼很難區分所以在國際線的慣例都均"},{"start":584.926,"end":602.639,"text":"但是主計長我覺得齁這個是一份報告各自解讀啦同樣的報告無論是今天的召委排了過去國民黨的召委費洪泰也排了可見我們對於受僱人員的薪資經濟的紅利沒有合理的分配給所有的勞工"},{"start":603.82,"end":627.014,"text":"朝野黨派的委員都對於這件事情是覺得非常嚴重也覺得值得重視的所以各單位無論是主計處、經濟部、國發會在這件事情上就不能只拿一個數據來告訴我們說這個是數字沒有計算很完整那你們拍拍屁股什麼都不做去年類似同樣專案報告排了一次今年又排一次"},{"start":627.754,"end":655.618,"text":"但是如果在這個位置上你們有能力可以做決策可以做更好的支援分配或我們的企業轉型我們沒有做任何事情的話那我覺得臺灣的勞工也好受僱人員的這個永遠沒有辦法享受到所謂的經濟紅利所以我在這邊我只叫主計長出來我覺得你的報告回答"},{"start":657.61,"end":682.345,"text":"我認為比較遺憾的是如果經濟部跟國發會只是拿一個數字來搪塞說這個是因為我們的計算沒有把所謂的家裡的其他成員其他的僱主成員納入所謂的報酬的話那我覺得我們永遠沒有辦法改善現在我們受僱人員分配過低的"},{"start":683.246,"end":708.947,"text":"一個主要的原因更何況過去10年來我們受僱人員薪資比事實上是逐年逐年降低你不要跟我拿過去其他的比例說我們過去長期我們臺灣的這個自僱的員工也好受僱的員工也好長期有這樣子的狀態那個結構長期都是如此但是我們在GDP占比受僱人員卻是過去10年來的新低"},{"start":710.168,"end":732.645,"text":"主計長你同意我的說法我們跟自己比就知道了嘛我們勞工的那個比例現在是因為少子化勞工比例是往慢慢的往下的趨勢的話這個比例將來仍然可能會有這種現象因為他就業人數變少了謝謝他不是事業主計長"},{"start":734.987,"end":756.27,"text":"人數少跟受僱人員薪資占比這是兩件事情勞工少但是我們要強調的是受僱人員就是說我們的勞工其實沒有分配到經濟同理所以剛才委員說很關心的我們要利用各種重分配的政策讓他能夠弱勢的人能夠得到更多的"},{"start":756.63,"end":765.2,"text":"但是如果從經濟部跟國發會今天回答的報告還在搪塞找幾個理由來美化這些數字來去強調這個數字其實不夠準確的話那我覺得受僱人員永遠就是"},{"start":771.787,"end":772.607,"text":"好 謝謝彥秀委員接著請郭國文委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"151953","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151953","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b5bc1457fe04b9632900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e63071191996f4c54def4a9f255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"10:03:05 - 10:16:58","影片長度":"00:13:53","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-11"},"duration":833,"end_time":"2024-05-01T10:16:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T10:03:05+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":285,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（10時3分）主席以及各位先進。有請主計長、財政部阮次長，賦稅署署長有來吧？"],["主席：請朱主計長、阮次長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：幾位長官好。首先我認為今天題目訂得非常好，本來就應該要討論了，本來就應該討論受僱人員薪資占GDP的比重，這個題目當然可以談啊，跟國民所得是另外一件事，主計長對吧？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我尊重大院。"],["賴委員士葆：對吧，這個沒有問題啦！主計長，我要問你的一件事情是你有提到一段話，我仔細讀在你的報告裡面，你說110年上市櫃公司財報，電子零組件營業利益大增63%，人事費用也成長28%，受僱報酬反而降0.9%，這是怎麼樣的狀況？生意做很多、錢賺很多，結果薪水砍下來，這是為什麼？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，它沒有砍下來……"],["賴委員士葆：你說的啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：它沒有砍下來，它這個比重……它沒有特別去砍啦！我必須說明一下，它還是在漲……"],["賴委員士葆：下降0.9%啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：它是比例下降，它的薪水還是漲的啦！"],["賴委員士葆：就是0.9%啊，你看！"],["朱主計長澤民：那個下降和這個……"],["賴委員士葆：你仔細讀一讀你的文章，我覺得寫得很奇怪，會是這樣的情況嗎？讓人讀的感覺是電子業的老闆都是慣老闆、惡老闆，他賺錢賺那麼多、營業額這麼大，結果員工砍薪水！你看受僱的報酬反而下降0.9%，你這個屋頂有問題啦！我今天不是跟你吵這個，給你看一下，這是根據你們的報告，請你看一下，這是你的表，我辛苦……"],["朱主計長澤民：這是我的表？"],["賴委員士葆：你的，你的，這個你做的吧？你們的啊，不是財政部的喔！"],["朱主計長澤民：我知道，這個我很清楚。"],["賴委員士葆：這個你的啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["賴委員士葆：這個完全就是你的資料。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝委員有在看，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：你當然要感謝我啊，我認真看你的資料，不然你的資料沒人要看，我看了耶！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，感謝有共鳴。"],["賴委員士葆：你80年做一次、110年做一次，30年才做一次，對不對？"],["朱主計長澤民：那個不是我做的，而且我憑良心講，那一次做並不是一個很成功的……他們很努力，因為那一次是表達……"],["賴委員士葆：所以80年是亂做的？"],["朱主計長澤民：不是亂做，那一次是調查，調查要看被調查人的配合度，這一次我們是用大數據，不是去問出來的，是用大數據做出來的。"],["賴委員士葆：你不就是說這次是我朱澤民做的所以比較準！上一次不知道誰做的，不準，這樣就對了，你是這個意思嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：所以我們以前做的有很多……"],["賴委員士葆：你是這個意思嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：不是這個意思。"],["賴委員士葆：喔，不是這個意思。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員加了太多的形容詞，沒有，不是這個意思。"],["賴委員士葆：我沒有形容詞啊，你的意思我解讀……"],["朱主計長澤民：我講這個因為是做調查，如果說……"],["賴委員士葆：我現在是read your lip，看你嘴巴講的啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：委員的家庭，人家問到委員說您有多少財產，您自己的很清楚，但您夫人的大概也都不是很清楚，每個都一樣……"],["賴委員士葆：所以問的時候就亂講？"],["朱主計長澤民：因為那個是調查，是調查……"],["賴委員士葆：那這一次呢？這一次比較準？"],["朱主計長澤民：這一次就是用大數據的資料……"],["賴委員士葆：對！我講的沒有錯啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：用大數據的資料、整體的資料……"],["賴委員士葆：我請問，這是你當主計長時候做的嘛？"],["朱主計長澤民：對啦，是我做的。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛！我推論的有什麼錯？"],["朱主計長澤民：這是我做的。"],["賴委員士葆：就是朱澤民做的比較準，以前做的比較不準，這樣就對了？"],["朱主計長澤民：您認為有缺點，點出來有什麼問題，我跟您解釋，不然機會不多了，快一點！"],["賴委員士葆：沒有，你也不必過度解讀，你這樣對我的批評我不接受啦！因為我read your lip，看你的嘴巴講的話就是這樣子，過去不是這樣調查的，可能有人不知道，所以就填一填，不準，這一次撈大數據比較準，這剛才你講的話啊？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，是的。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛，所以就是朱澤民任內比較準，以前不是朱澤民就比較不準。"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有說比較準，這個是代表統計的一個進步、數據的一個進步。"],["賴委員士葆：對啦，朱澤民才有進步，別人不進步，就這樣啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，你這種衍生已經超過原來文字的……"],["賴委員士葆：你意思就是這樣，要說這些誰不知道？來，請你看清楚喔！80年，現在110年喔，房地產1,480萬，先問一下，以後能不能改成10年做一次，可以嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：也許要看未來的主計長……"],["賴委員士葆：可以不可以啦？"],["朱主計長澤民：就政策來……但我個人認為……"],["賴委員士葆：30年太久了啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：10年太久了。"],["賴委員士葆：30年太久了啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：10年太久了。"],["賴委員士葆：不然5年？"],["朱主計長澤民：我們要衡量，因為要各單位的配合。"],["賴委員士葆：如果按照你講大數據的話，老實講每年都可以做。"],["朱主計長澤民：不可以，因為有些資料蒐集，會牽連到……最簡單的講……"],["賴委員士葆：好啦，好啦，你不要說這個，我沒時間，你一直亂我。","房地產現在是1,480萬、金融性的資產3,809萬，減掉金融性負債233萬，110年淨值A加B減C等於D，就是五千多萬……"],["朱主計長澤民：那個是最高的20%。"],["賴委員士葆：對，最高20%是五千多萬，結果最低的20%是77萬，所以這裡面就很清楚看得到，有錢人怎麼有錢？股票、基金、房地產，這裡面看起來就是這樣啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，委員提的這個問題很好，但是我也要……"],["賴委員士葆：總算講我好囉？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，跟委員講，這也是告訴我們最低的20%，您看到他的金融負債有405億……"],["賴委員士葆：405萬啦，沒有億啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，他的金融資產……就是說太多的人，有一部分去做財務槓桿操作，所以他的資產增加有限……"],["賴委員士葆：你這樣講……"],["朱主計長澤民：平均負債405萬，所以就是金管會所講的，理財要謹慎！"],["賴委員士葆：等一下，主計長，你這樣醜化窮人耶！"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有醜化窮人，我跟你講資產只增加三點多，負債卻增加十幾倍，這就是財務槓桿操作太嚴重……"],["賴委員士葆：什麼財務槓桿？"],["朱主計長澤民：所以要聽金管會的話謹慎理財。"],["賴委員士葆：你今天變成金管會主委了喔？"],["朱主計長澤民：沒有，沒有，沒有，這個是現實。"],["賴委員士葆：主計長，你有沒有想到這是窮人要借錢過日子，有錢人借錢炒股票、炒房？有這個可能。"],["朱主計長澤民：他的金融性資產也很多，您看到最低20%，金融性資產有兩百多萬……"],["賴委員士葆：是啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，有兩百多萬……"],["賴委員士葆：那為什麼負債405萬？"],["朱主計長澤民：那四百多萬……有一部分，我不是說所有的人啦！一部分是做金融操作……"],["賴委員士葆：借錢度日啦！按照你這樣講，我告訴你有一半去炒股票，有一半借錢度日子，窮人你不要把他污名化啦！主計長不能這樣啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：我的意思是要謹慎理財，有金融資產也不要太過於財務操作，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：他不是都財務操作啦！你這樣講財務操作，這個數字就告訴人家一半而已啦！才一半而已啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：我跟你講，最低20%，他的資產只有增加3.82倍，他的負債卻增加16倍，所以說要謹慎理財，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：你只有講理財？借錢過日子，你沒有想到？你下去，你現在情緒很激動，來，請你下去，請你就座。"],["朱主計長澤民：不是要……"],["賴委員士葆：不用啦，不用啦！"],["主席：休息一下，主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：機會不多啦，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：機會已經很多了，給你這麼多時間，一直亂、一直亂！","次長跟署長，從剛才的表已經看得到了，社會投資要降低中產的焦慮，其實我們就可以看嘛，股票、基金、房地產，我們的房地產持有稅太低了……"],["阮次長清華：但是現在我們已經開始實施房地……"],["賴委員士葆：我們的證所稅沒有課，在證交稅裡面……所以你看美國動輒證所稅要百分之三十幾，當然這個不是我今天要講的重點，我要講的重點在於房地產的持有稅，其實美國房子持有稅大概一年繳1%耶！"],["阮次長清華：瞭解，瞭解。"],["賴委員士葆：我們一年房屋跟地價稅，昨天節目沈富雄還講他的房子大概五千多萬，結果課房屋稅一萬多、地價稅也差不多一萬多，不到三萬，他自己都覺得稅繳太少了！所以你們這個……"],["阮次長清華：是，報告委員，我們現在也開始注意到這個問題，所以我們也提出房屋稅2.0……"],["賴委員士葆：你有沒有準備想要課持有稅？房子持有稅，不是囤房稅喔！持有稅有沒有課？"],["阮次長清華：對，持有稅就是房屋稅，推動房屋稅2.0嘛！"],["賴委員士葆：但房屋稅很低啊，有夠低的低啊！太低啦！"],["阮次長清華：我覺得是這樣，報告委員，我們現在已經在改革了……"],["賴委員士葆：太低啦！"],["阮次長清華：改革一定要循序漸進。"],["賴委員士葆：那我就問你啦，有沒有可能課一個富人稅，把最有錢超過一百億以上的，每一年繳1,000萬給國庫？我們長照需要錢、健保需要錢，太多地方需要錢，有沒有可能乾脆課一個富人稅？"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員報告，美國的所得稅最高曾經達到90%，但是它會影響到什麼呢？影響到工作的誘因，影響到經濟的發展，目前好不容易降下來，所以我們的稅率一定要非常的……"],["賴委員士葆：不是，我講最有錢的，超過一百億夠有錢了吧？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["賴委員士葆：超過十億的有七千多人喔！超過一百億的我認為是上千喔！"],["阮次長清華：其實我們現在的所得稅率……"],["賴委員士葆：這些給他課富人稅，可不可以？"],["阮次長清華：我們現在所謂所得稅率已經達到40%，其實以全世界來比，已經在中高的一個層級了。"],["賴委員士葆：你們把原來的45%稅率降為40%，講這樣子？"],["阮次長清華：我們現在……"],["賴委員士葆：等一下，我把這問完啦！再來中小企業加薪條例，經濟部可以過來幫忙一下。"],["主席：把握一下時間。"],["賴委員士葆：我今天是完全附和我們主席英明的一個排案，你排案我都給你鼓掌好幾聲，雖然你們同黨立委不認同，但我認同。","這個中小企業條例的130%，次長還有宋署長要聽一聽，主要你們前面那個框框太多啊！又要CPI到達多少、失業率多少才給它改成通通沒有附帶條件，只要你加薪，我就給你乘以150%，可以嗎？"],["林次長全能：現在就是這樣調整。"],["賴委員士葆：150%還不夠，本席的提案是200%啦！給他們200%才有誘因，剛才其他委員已經罵得要命，調了半天才幾千萬，要幹什麼？我先講好，我的提案200%，所有條件全部拿掉，好不好？"],["林次長全能：我們條件都已經放寬，至於……"],["賴委員士葆：全部拿掉啦！"],["林次長全能：至於抵減的部分我們尊重委員……"],["賴委員士葆：最後一個小問題，署長你比較清楚，要報稅了，今天開始報稅，對不對？"],["宋署長秀玲：對、對。"],["賴委員士葆：你們一定要叫人家填房子是租的還是自用，有沒有？"],["宋署長秀玲：對。"],["賴委員士葆：必填喔！"],["宋署長秀玲：對。"],["賴委員士葆：這是要拿來查房東的稅，是不是？"],["宋署長秀玲：這是要瞭解納稅人本身現在的狀況，如果是租的，他可以報租金支出扣除。"],["賴委員士葆：某種程度就是查房東的稅了？難怪人家就不要填，是不是？"],["宋署長秀玲：其實應該是說課稅資料有多元的用途，絕對不是只有單一為了查稅。"],["賴委員士葆：但是可以「摸蜊仔兼洗褲」同時查稅，對吧？"],["宋署長秀玲：看到時候怎麼去運用。"],["賴委員士葆：你的回答就是了啦！好啦！","阮次長，我最後問你一個，聽說你要去公股行庫了是吧？"],["阮次長清華：沒有聽說啊！"],["賴委員士葆：沒有？"],["阮次長清華：沒有聽說，我沒辦法回答這個問題……"],["賴委員士葆：我比較擔心的是，你是國安基金的操盤手，你走了以後怎麼辦呢？"],["阮次長清華：我想……"],["賴委員士葆：有很多聲音出來了，我有聽到聲音要把你調去公股行庫啊！"],["主席：關於個人生涯，私下……"],["阮次長清華：沒有聽說，我沒辦法回答這個問題，謝謝委員關心。"],["主席：謝謝賴士葆委員的質詢，也謝謝賴士葆委員的肯定。","接著我們請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-11","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王世堅","李坤城","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","顏寬恒","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","黃秀芳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就\n「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 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生意很多 賺錢很多 結果薪水砍下來 怎麼回事沒有沒有 他沒有砍下來 因為是他沒有特別去砍啦 那個我就必須鬆鬆免一下他還是下降 他是比例下降 他是薪水還是漲的啦"},{"start":88.344,"end":96.147,"text":"你直接讀一讀,你連文章寫的都很奇怪,有沒有這個情況?你現在讀,讓人家感覺是,這個電子業的老闆都很慣老闆、惡老闆,他賺錢賺那麼多,營業額這麼大,結果員工砍薪水,你看,受僱的報酬占,你這個窩點有問題啦,我今天不是跟你吵這個,跟你看一下,來"},{"start":114.69,"end":126.825,"text":"你剛這是根據你們的報告啊請你看一下看一下這個錶這個錶我辛苦這是你的錶喔是我的對你的你的你的這你做的吧"},{"start":128.331,"end":137.221,"text":"這個你們的?這個你們的?不是財政部的?這個你們的?這個完全不是你們的資料?我再看大家感謝我認真看你們的資料不然你的資料沒辦法看我我給你看了勒來感謝"},{"start":147.012,"end":169.31,"text":"有共鳴你80年做一次110年做一次30年才做一次對不對那個不是我做的而且那一次做我憑良心講那一次做的話是並不是一個很成功的他們很努力所以80年是亂亂做的那一次不是亂做那一次是調查調查要看被調查人的"},{"start":169.71,"end":195.211,"text":"那一個配合度這一次我們是用大數據不是去問出來的是用大數據出來的安定定的告訴你說這一次是我朱正民做的事比較準上一次怕誰做的不準這樣就對了你是這個意思嗎所以我們之前那個做的話有很多你是這個意思嗎不是這個意思委員是加了太多的形容詞沒有不是這個意思這是沒有形容詞啊你的意思這是我的講說因為是做調查"},{"start":197.793,"end":216.991,"text":"我現在啊我現在就是read your lipsread your lips我看你怎麼講的啊委員的家庭人家問到委員說您東有多少財產你自己的很清楚您夫人的您大概也都不是很清楚每個都一樣所以就問的說是你那家那個是調查啊這一次咧"},{"start":221.814,"end":237.862,"text":"這次就是用大數據的資料對嘛那我講的沒有錯啊用大數據的資料是整體的資料這個是來請問這是你當主計長時候做的嘛對嘛啊我做的啊就是朱正平做的比較準啊以前做的不準你覺得有缺點你解釋出來有什麼問題我跟您解釋謝謝不然機會沒機會快點"},{"start":249.628,"end":276.333,"text":"沒有 你也不必過度解讀你這樣你對我的批評我不接受啦齁因為你read your lips看你的嘴巴講的話就是這樣子過去不是 現在調查的可能有人不知道所以呢就挺一挺不準這次大數據比較準這根本就是你講的話啊對對嘛所以就是朱成敏任內比較準以前不是朱成敏比較準沒有不是比較準這個是代表統計的一個進步"},{"start":278.593,"end":279.434,"text":"80年現在110年房地產1480萬"},{"start":300.203,"end":326.642,"text":"先問一下以後能不能改成10年做一次可以嗎那個也許我們那個看未來的主計長可以不可以啦30年太久啦對10年太久30年太久啦10年太久10年那個5年那個我們要衡量因為那個要各單位的配合如果按照你講大數據的話齁老實講每年都可以做"},{"start":327.683,"end":332.773,"text":"不可以因為有些資料會是那個收集會牽連到一個很簡單的角度"},{"start":338.112,"end":366.222,"text":"房地產現在是1480萬對金融性的資產3809萬對減掉金融事務負債233把減掉114年進食A加B減息等於低就是5000多萬那個是最高的百分之二十對最高百分之五千多萬結果最低的是77萬所以這裡面來看的話這很清楚看得到了"},{"start":367.162,"end":395.17,"text":"很清楚看得到有錢人怎麼有錢?股票?基金?房地產?這裡面?看的是這樣啊?看的是這樣啊?跟那個委員報告一下您委員提的這個問題很好但是我也要總算講我好了對 我要跟委員講這也是告訴我們那個最低的百分之二十您看到他的金融負債"},{"start":396.69,"end":401.213,"text":"所以他的資產增加有限負債增加所以負債405萬所以我們就是民管委所講的理財要謹慎"},{"start":420.623,"end":421.103,"text":"朱主計長,你有沒有想到"},{"start":447.749,"end":463.654,"text":"這是窮人要借錢過日子有錢人借錢炒股票炒房沒有可能金融性資產也很多你看到最低百分之二十金融性資產有200多萬所以負債405那為什麼405"},{"start":471.556,"end":474.597,"text":"有一部分我不是說所有的人啦一部分是貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸貸�"},{"start":495.125,"end":495.445,"text":"休息一下主席長"},{"start":531.493,"end":549.082,"text":"市長跟署長啊從剛才的表已經看得到了這個社會投資要降低中產的焦慮啊其實我們就可以看嘛股票、基金、房地產我們的房地產持有稅太低了"},{"start":551.4,"end":572.22,"text":"我們的振作稅沒有課我們增加稅裡面所以我們的你看美國動資的振作稅要30幾%這個當然今天不是我要講的重點我要講的重點就是在於說房地產的持有稅其實美國房子它那個持有稅大概一年一趴的"},{"start":573.3,"end":591.447,"text":"我們一年房屋跟地價稅昨天那個節目沈副熊還講他的房子大概五千多萬結果的房屋稅一萬多地價稅也從一萬多不到三萬他自己都覺得說稅太少了稅太少了我們現在也開始注意到這個問題了所以我們也提出房屋稅你有沒有準備想要課持有稅"},{"start":600.571,"end":603.239,"text":"瘋子十六歲,不是土豪歲喔!十六歲沒有課!對,十六歲十六歲!"},{"start":606.828,"end":634.738,"text":"房屋稅就是房屋稅嘛房屋稅2.0嘛啊房屋稅很低啊又夠低就低啊太低啦我們現在已經在改革啦太低啦改革一定要循序漸進啦那我就問你啦有沒有可能靠一個婦人稅把最有錢的超過一百億以上的反正你這邊一百億以上的每年繳一千萬給國庫我們長照需要錢健保需要錢太多需要錢有沒有可能跟著靠一個婦人稅"},{"start":635.538,"end":656.015,"text":"對﹖"},{"start":656.516,"end":660.257,"text":"中小企業加薪條例那個經濟部可以過來幫忙一下保衛一下時間"},{"start":684.196,"end":693.503,"text":"這個沒有我今天是完全完全呼籲我們主席英明特意的排案你排了案我都跟你鼓掌鼓掌好幾聲雖然你們通黨立委不認同我認同這個"},{"start":698.072,"end":720.286,"text":"中小企業條例130%那個市長啊市長你等一下那個受署長要聽一聽啊主要就是你們前面那個框框太多啊又要那個CPI到達多少啦又失業率到多少才給他改成通通沒有附帶條件只要你加薪我就給你乘150可以嗎現在就是這樣調整要這樣子150還不夠啦本期的天是200啦"},{"start":725.951,"end":741.248,"text":"給他兩百啊!那個右營才有,剛才委員已經罵得要命,就是條例辦公室幾千萬不一件!不一件!就是,我已經講了喔!我有提案,兩百!所有條件全部拿掉!"},{"start":742.446,"end":765.318,"text":"所有條件全部拿掉好不好我們條件都已經放寬那至於那個底檢的部分我們尊重委員的那個最後一個小問題那個署長啊你署長你給清楚欸要報稅今天開始報稅對不對對你們一定要叫人家填房子是主的自用有沒有對必填喔必填喔對"},{"start":766.864,"end":794.622,"text":"這個事要來查房東的稅是不是這是要了解一下納稅人本身現在的狀況然後如果租的話他可以報租金支出扣除我們某種程度就查房東的稅了喔難怪人家就不要停其實應該是說課稅資料有多元的用途啦但絕對不是只有單一位的查稅但是可以同時某種程度同時查稅對吧"},{"start":796.59,"end":805.379,"text":"看到時候怎麼去運用就是你的回答就是了好啦 那個賴士葆我最後問你一個聽說你要去宮古防庫的是吧"},{"start":806.243,"end":808.946,"text":"謝謝賴士葆委員的質詢也謝謝賴士葆委員的肯定接著我們請李燕秀文質詢"}]}},{"id":"151952","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151952","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466be91c14483c0f4fb3900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e630711919effb6f8b230260f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:50:21 - 10:02:57","影片長度":"00:12:36","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-11"},"duration":756,"end_time":"2024-05-01T10:02:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T09:50:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":206,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時50分）主席，麻煩請朱主計長。"],["主席：有請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：主計長辛苦了！"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：辛苦這麼多年……"],["朱主計長澤民：應該的。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在要跟你請教，這是我個人的觀點，你覺得今天這個題目：「如何改善受僱人員報酬占GDP比重偏低現象……」，題目這樣寫，就是把受僱人員報酬占GDP比重偏低現象變成是一個肯定句。再來就是受僱人員的報酬跟GDP比較，從剛剛各部會的報告來看，感覺這不是決然的關係，它是有諸多變量因素，加上統計的方法不一樣，都會造成這樣的狀況。我舉個例子，譬如製造業，以台積電來講，台積電這麼大的企業，每年盈餘這麼高，它的受薪、薪水當然占其盈餘比率相當低，就是跟整個占比來講……"],["朱主計長澤民：對，跟那個……"],["吳委員秉叡：問題是台積電每一個員工的薪水那麼高，是全臺灣最高的，幾乎是全臺灣最高的。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，委員剛才講的重點很重要，就是在主計總處的報告，尤其是第2頁、第3頁的表格，以及第4頁到第7頁的內容，我們已經針對委員的意見說明，就是要看產業特性，可能看全國的資料會有這種現象，可是個別行業，就像你剛才講的，在電子零組件部分，它的薪資分配出去的比率，就是薪資分配占它的產值比率，大概只有25.4%，可是員工的薪水卻是接近10萬塊；而住宿跟餐飲業是一個勞動密集的行業，薪資分配比率占62.5%，可是員工的薪水大概只有三萬六千多塊，所以要看產業的特性，謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：產業特性是一個變項……"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：我現在要請教的問題是，全世界有用這樣的方式在比較的嗎？就是受僱人員的報酬占GDP比重的比較，有嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：這是國民所得統計的一個概念，要看薪資的話，還是要看每人的薪資，而不要用比率。"],["主席：有……"],["吳委員秉叡：應該要說國民所得占GDP的比重，應該是這樣說嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，對，國民所得統計上有生產面跟消費面，也有一個所謂的分配面，那個分配面是兩個不同的，所以不能夠把各種觀念混在一起，然後說這是怎麼一回事。"],["吳委員秉叡：同一個問題一直談、一直談，最後就會得出一個結論，那就是我們臺灣的薪資所得占GDP太低了，就得出這樣一個標籤化的結果嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：這個我剛才講說要看行業的特性。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以我覺得這個議題不能這樣談啦！"],["朱主計長澤民：是的，尊重委員的意見。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，再來第二個問題，剛剛前面幾位委員談到中國現在的經濟環境非常糟糕，這大家都知道……"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：臺灣當然會受到很大影響，因為臺灣現在對中國、港澳出口還占百分之三十點多……"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：雖然已經有大幅下降，從將近五成降到大概三成左右，可是中國現在發生的現象，如果依照YouTube上的這些播主講的，全中國現在一個最大的運動叫做「潤」，「潤」就是英文run的翻譯，所以中國人都在跑啊！都在跑啊！有錢人在跑，一般的人也在跑，還要非法入境，從南美洲、中美洲到墨西哥，然後再偷渡到美國，這樣的人數一直增加，所以從以前到現在，都說中國這個地方不是一個合理的照我們經濟遊戲模式負擔風險的地方，它非經濟因素的風險太多了。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我同意委員的觀點，因為它是一個比較管制的方式，管制的話，就是它的經濟韌性不強、硬把它拉高。"],["吳委員秉叡：它的政治可以干涉一切，政治可以凌駕一切的規則嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以那個地方如果要去的話，我們一再說要風險自負，就像我們以前說投資有賺有賠，你自己要詳細評估風險，總不能賺到錢的時候說自己很厲害，賠到錢都是政府要負責任。臺商靠自己的聰明才智評估這些風險走全世界，很了不起，其實很多臺商也在跑了、也都在轉移生產基地，有很多回來臺灣的、鮭魚返鄉的，也有到東南亞去的，也有到別的國家去投資的嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：所以真正的答案在這邊，千萬不能說中國的經濟失敗又要臺灣政府負責啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：對，跟委員報告一下，有些人說我們非常依賴中國的市場，事實上我們輸到中國有很多是中間產品……"],["吳委員秉叡：沒有錯。"],["朱主計長澤民：中間產品是人家依賴我們。"],["吳委員秉叡：我們中間產品輸去那邊，它做末端的加工，然後從它那邊出口嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：那一個部分占比歸電子業，絕大多數都是這樣嘛！"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["吳委員秉叡：那也是為什麼中國一直想要搞我們的鬼、想要對付我們，結果它在這一方面沒有辦法像農產品這樣子處理的原因嘛！因為只有農產品不是終端，它們可以不需要臺灣的農產品，它如果有本事把臺灣的電子產品禁掉看看，看看他們的經濟會變成什麼樣子？最好臺灣的晶圓它都不要用！"],["朱主計長澤民：所以我們要一直保持領先的地位，讓我們不要被替代。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，麻煩請你回座。"],["朱主計長澤民：謝謝。"],["吳委員秉叡：接下來請財政部阮次長跟經濟部林次長。"],["主席：請林次長及阮次長。"],["林次長全能：委員好。"],["阮次長清華：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：你好。請問中小企業發展條例立法到現在有多少年了？"],["林次長全能：105年實施到現在。"],["吳委員秉叡：從105年實施到現在，在增僱本國籍員工的部分，請財政部阮次長回答，如果照經濟部給的資料，影響的稅額是八千多萬嗎？"],["阮次長清華：根據我們目前統計出來的，因為它有一些門檻的限制，所以實施的期間大概都很短。目前我們統計出來的數據，稅收的減免大概是九千萬左右。"],["吳委員秉叡：適用了四、五年的時間，適用的人數才八千多人，影響的稅額才減免了八千萬，立法院立這個法通過了四、五年，結果你們檢討出來的減稅額度是這樣！所以中小企業發展條例未來延長十年，門檻有一些拿掉了，然後金額提高到150%，你預估會造成什麼樣的結果，可不可以跟我們說明一下？究竟會產生什麼樣的效應？能夠製造出多少的效果？"],["阮次長清華：應該是這樣子，加成的比例如果從130%提高到150%，它的效果等於是說它的投資抵減率是10%的話，就跟產創條例一般大企業研發的投資抵減是一樣的，所以我預估應該會有好轉的現象。"],["吳委員秉叡：好轉是一個形容詞，我要你預估會達到怎麼樣的效果？我的意思是說，這會適用到多少人，當然不是詳細的數字，只要你的估值，關於好轉的現象究竟會影響到多少的稅額，你講一個數字出來，還是署長要補充？"],["阮次長清華：這個是不是請經濟部來說明，因為它有稅式評估。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，那請經濟部林次長你評估一下。"],["林次長全能：關於稅制評估的詳細資料，我待會兒請中小企業署副署長說明。基本上我們有針對比較樂觀的狀況及比較保守的狀況去分析……"],["吳委員秉叡：請說明，趕快說明。"],["林次長全能：這個影響的家數，在樂觀的狀況下，十年大概會超過上萬家以上的家數。至於比較細節的部分，我請副署長來說明。"],["吳副署長佳穎：報告委員，過去加薪只啟動過一次，因為當時有門檻，就是景氣必須要……"],["吳委員秉叡：過去的不講，我現在講的是延長之後的十年，你的評估是怎麼樣？"],["吳副署長佳穎：在未來的話，每年會是207家，未來十年年年都可以來進行，與之前一年只有66位比起來的話，十年內跟過去的十年算起來大概會有三十幾倍的成長，那……"],["吳委員秉叡：三十幾倍，所以十年可以減免多少稅？"],["吳副署長佳穎：有關稅的部分……"],["主席：財政部要準備好一點好不好？不要讓委員在那邊等待時間，要來財政委員會備詢，你們要準備好啊！"],["阮次長清華：因為這本來是經濟部的推估，現在是這樣子，如果是高推估的話，大概是1.51億。"],["吳委員秉叡：1.51億？十年1.51億？"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：那就是平均一年減免1,500萬對不對？"],["阮次長清華：目前的推估是這樣。"],["吳委員秉叡：一年減1,500萬，占全國所有GDP的多少？那比九牛一毛還不如啊！"],["阮次長清華：我跟委員補充報告，剛才我講的是……因為它有不同的評估方法，我現在講的另外一個評估方法大概是7.83億啦！"],["吳委員秉叡：就算是7.83億，十年7.83億就是一年減免了七千多萬。"],["阮次長清華：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為今天這個題目是要為受薪、受僱人增加薪水，所以我們立一個法、延長一個法來幫忙要讓他們減稅，結果獲得的利益，符合這個規定的全國企業一年才減免七千多萬，這個誰要跟你玩啊！我的意思是說你們這個方案，經濟部過去做了四、五年，你也不檢討，成效這麼差！今年提出這個方案，要我們延長你十年，效果也是這麼糟糕！這個能夠達到今天題目的目的──如何引導企業與勞工共享獲利嗎？你一年打算高估用七千多萬的租稅利益來引導企業跟勞工共享全部獲利，臺灣的企業一年的收入是多少？占GDP的多少？你們拿這個是什麼東西？拿秋毫之末要比一座山啊！我覺得這個你們要好好的思考，你們今天提出這個案子，實質上絕對達不到效果，在我來看，就算有效果也不知道是萬分之零點幾啊！拿一年七千多萬的稅金打算要去做這件事情？加油啦，好不好？謝謝。"],["阮次長清華：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳秉叡委員的質詢，簡直是九牛一奈米啊！","接下來請賴委員士葆質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-11","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王世堅","李坤城","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","顏寬恒","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","黃秀芳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就\n「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 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那個委員剛才講到那個重點是很重要就是我們在主計總處的報告在尤其那個第二頁第三頁那個表以及那個第四頁到第七頁的那個內容我們已經針對這個委員的一個意見就是說要看產業的透信這個是就全國的資料"},{"start":109.409,"end":131.092,"text":"可能就是說會有這種現象可是個別行業就是您剛才講的像那個電子零組件它的薪資分配2T的那個比例就是說他們薪資分配的那個占那個它的產值的比例大概只有25.4%可是它的薪水卻是接近10萬塊"},{"start":132.133,"end":150.538,"text":"阿那個那個住宿跟餐飲業喔他是一個勞動密集他的薪資的分配的比例占62.5可是他的薪水大概只有3萬6千多塊所以要看產業的特性謝謝產業特性是一個變相問題是我現在想請教全世界有用這樣的方式在"},{"start":151.718,"end":170.799,"text":"在比較的嗎?都用受僱人員的報酬占GDP的比重嗎?這個是國民所得統計的一個概念那要看薪資的話還是要看每人的薪資所以不要用這個比例不是應該是在說國民所得占GDP的比重應該是這樣說嘛這個是因為在"},{"start":174.322,"end":178.104,"text":"同一個問題一直談一直談一直談最後就得出一個結論我們台灣的新製索的占GDP太低了就得出這樣一個標籤化的結果嘛"},{"start":198.515,"end":217.17,"text":"所以我覺得這個議題不能夠這樣談啦是的尊重委員的意見再來第二個是剛剛有人前面的委員談到說中國現在經濟環境非常的糟糕這大家都知道是的那台灣當然會受到很大的影響因為台灣現在對中國港澳出口還佔30點多對"},{"start":219.352,"end":244.491,"text":"那當然已經大幅下降了從40快將近5成降到大概3成左右可是中國現在發生的現象如果依照這個YouTube上面的這些博主在講全中國現在一個最大的運動叫做RUNRUN就是英文的RUN的翻譯所以中國人都在逃啊都在跑啊有錢人也在跑"},{"start":245.939,"end":272.788,"text":"一般的人也在跑還要非法入境從南美洲走中美洲從墨西哥然後再偷渡到美國去這樣的人數一直在增加所以從以前到現在就講中國這個地方不是一個合理照我們經濟遊戲模式負擔風險的地方他非經濟因素的風險太多了"},{"start":273.716,"end":295.927,"text":"對,這我同意委員的觀點,因為他是一個比較管制慣,管制的話就是他的經濟韌性不強,硬把他拉高那他的政治可以干涉一切嘛,政治可以凌駕於一切的規則嘛,所以那個地方如果要去,我們一再講說要風險致富啦就像我們以前有講說,你投資有賺有賠,啊你自己要評估,詳細評估風險"},{"start":299.348,"end":313.435,"text":"總不能賺到錢的時候說自己很厲害賠到錢都是政府要負責任台商靠自己的聰明才智評估這些風險走全世界很了不起其實很多台商也在跑了"},{"start":314.298,"end":328.845,"text":"也都在轉移生產基地嘛有很多回來台灣的貴於返鄉的也有到東南亞去的也有到別的國家去投資的嘛是的所以真正的答案是在這裡千萬不能說中國的經濟失敗又要台灣政府負責啊"},{"start":329.768,"end":349.324,"text":"跟那個委員報告一下有些人說我們非常依賴中國的市場事實上我們輸到中國有很多是中間產品中間產品是人家依賴我們我們中間產品去那邊他做末端的加工然後從他那邊出口那一個部分占比光是電子業絕大多數都是這樣嘛那一個也是為什麼"},{"start":352.606,"end":356.807,"text":"所以我們要一直保持領先的地位就是說不要被替代"},{"start":381.361,"end":382.722,"text":"中小企業發展條例,立法到現在有多少年?"},{"start":405.382,"end":416.568,"text":"105年實施到現在就105年實施到現在在徵僱本國籍員工的部分部長、財政部次長、阮次長你回答"},{"start":417.645,"end":445.925,"text":"影響的稅額如果照經濟部給的資料是八千多萬對我們現在目前統計出來的就是因為他有一些門檻的限制所以呢實施的期間都大概都很短那目前我們統計出來的大概稅收的減免大概是九千萬左右試用了四五年的時間試用的人數才八千多人影響的稅額才減免了八千萬"},{"start":447.586,"end":473.446,"text":"立這個法叫立法院立這個法通過了四五年你的檢討出來的減稅額度是這樣所以你這個中小企業發展條例未來延長十年門檻也會先拿掉了對好然後金額提高了到150%對你預估會造成什麼樣的結果可不可以跟我們解釋一下會產生什麼樣的效應能夠製造出多少的效果"},{"start":474.406,"end":495.055,"text":"應該是這樣子我們現在那個就是加成的比例如果從130%提高150%它的效果等於是說它的投資抵減率是10%10%的話就跟產創條例我們一般大企業的這個研發的投資抵減是一樣的所以我預估是應該是會有好轉的現象"},{"start":497.296,"end":523.101,"text":"好轉是一個形容詞我要你預估會有達到怎麼樣的效果我的意思是說你會適用到多少人當然不是詳細的數字你的估值你會影響到多少的稅額你講一個數字出來嘛好轉的現象那還是還是署長你要補充這個我是不是請經濟部來因為他有稅室評估好那經濟部次長您次長你評估一下"},{"start":525.85,"end":537.574,"text":"稅制評估的一個詳細我待會請我們那個中華企業所副長說明那基本上我們有分析就是說有比較樂觀的狀況有比較這個保守狀況去分析請說明趕快說明對那這個影響的那個這個加速在樂觀的狀況10年大概會超過這個上萬家以上這樣的加速那至於比較細節的部分我請我們副長這邊來處長說明嗎"},{"start":550.614,"end":561.449,"text":"報告委員,這個在過去加薪只啟動過一次,因為當時有門檻,就是景氣必須要反映。對,過去的不講,我現在跟你講說你這個延長之後10年,你的評估是怎樣?"},{"start":562.489,"end":582.788,"text":"在未來的話我們就是每年會是207家然後所以10年年年都可以來來進行所以跟去年之前只有一年66位的話算起來大概會有3010年內跟過去的10年大概會有30幾倍的成長30幾倍所以10年可以減免多少稅"},{"start":585.549,"end":611.156,"text":"財政部要準備好一點好不好不要讓委員在那邊等待時間人家要來財政部會準備你要準備好啊這樣子我現在因為本來這個是經濟部的推估那我現在是這樣就是如果是都推估的話"},{"start":612.176,"end":617.019,"text":"那麼大概是1.51億1.51億10年1.51億對那就平均一年減免了1500萬對"},{"start":621.82,"end":625.782,"text":"對,我跟委員補充報告,剛才我講的是因為他有不同的評估方法我現在講的另外一個評估方法是大概7.83億"},{"start":643.672,"end":660.543,"text":"好 就算7.83億10年7.83億就是一年減免了7000多萬因為今天這個題目要為受薪受僱人增加薪水所以我們立一個法延長一個法來幫忙要讓他們減稅"},{"start":662.996,"end":675.404,"text":"結果獲得了利益全體的企業符合這個規定一年全國才減免7000多萬這個誰要跟你玩啊所以我是意思是說你們這個方案"},{"start":677.153,"end":705.596,"text":"經濟部過去做了四五年你也不檢討成效這麼差今年提出這個方案要我們延長你十年效果也是這麼糟糕這個能夠達到今天題目的目的如何引導企業與勞工共享獲利你一年打算高估用七千多萬的租稅利益來引導企業跟勞工共享全部獲利"},{"start":707.781,"end":732.637,"text":"臺灣的企業一年的收入是多少啊?占GDP是多少啊?你們拿一個是什麼東西啊?拿秋毫要修比一座山啊?這個我覺得你們要好好的思考你們今天提這個你們今天提出這個案實質你給你了解喔?絕對達不到效果的啦在我來看就算有效果也是不知道萬分之零點幾"},{"start":734.281,"end":734.581,"text":"請賴司保委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"151951","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151951","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bb12524510974d4e5900bfbad7a56e18f7f5010e630711919a0774d604d2e170f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:37:40 - 09:50:11","影片長度":"00:12:31","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[20],"id":"委員會-11-1-20-11"},"duration":751,"end_time":"2024-05-01T09:50:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T09:37:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":146,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時37分）謝謝主席、與會各列席機關首長，是不是請朱主計長？"],["主席：有請朱主計長。"],["朱主計長澤民：委員好。"],["林委員德福：主計長你好。主計長，我請教，因為勞動部有公布數據，2023年職場新鮮人的薪資平均數為3.5萬，年增2.9%，但是講實在話民眾是很無感啦！實質薪資是不是都被通膨整個吃掉？您的看法呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，我沒有看到勞動部的那個統計，因為我們沒有分什麼新鮮人的……"],["林委員德福：就是剛入職的新鮮人。"],["朱主計長澤民：我跟委員報告一下，因為一般平均數都會比中位數高，所以用平均數的話，大概就會有很多人說我比平均數低，所以在我們的統計上，我們都有所謂的中位數的統計，大概每年都有中位數的統計。"],["林委員德福：所以說你是以中位數為主？"],["朱主計長澤民：中位數也許是……就是中間嘛！一半的人。"],["林委員德福：取中間我知道。"],["朱主計長澤民：所以說是用平均數的話，我可以跟委員報告，中位數大概只有平均數的百分之七十幾，中位數是比較低。"],["林委員德福：所以說你認為中位數是比較合理，是不是？"],["朱主計長澤民：中位數也許比較合理一點。"],["林委員德福：但是講實在話，雖然新鮮人的薪資統計有達到3萬5，但是他們是無感的。"],["朱主計長澤民：3萬5的話，如果是按照這個比例，中位數大概可能不到3萬塊。"],["林委員德福：他們無感，是不是因為給物價通膨吃掉了，他們才無感？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，現在我們的物價上漲率最近幾個月是有往下跌的趨勢。"],["林委員德福：往下？"],["朱主計長澤民：是的，現在比較高的我們擔心是油價，因為油價前些時候大概是80塊，現在都在90塊上下徘徊。"],["林委員德福：主計長，你認為目前整個通膨下降，應該還不至於讓這些新鮮人無感是不是？你的看法。"],["朱主計長澤民：因為新鮮人有時候是有些行業待遇比較高、有些比較低。"],["林委員德福：對，當然。"],["朱主計長澤民：我們尊重市場制度，謝謝。"],["林委員德福：主計長，據您的瞭解，臺灣經濟獲利表現很好的企業，是不是應該適當地要把一些獲利回歸在員工的薪水上面？這部分你認為到底這些獲利的企業有沒有做到應該要把獲利的部分提撥給員工，做為他們……"],["朱主計長澤民：委員的構想是很好，我們也希望企業能夠往這方面做，大家共同來努力，相關的經濟部、財政部或者是勞動部，都有一些激勵的措施。"],["林委員德福：既然企業可能獲利很好，但是相對也應該要照顧勞工，那是勞工努力的成果。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我希望每一個老闆都有像委員這般的胸懷，謝謝。"],["林委員德福：主計長，我認為企業賺錢本來就是要跟員工分享，這個才對啊！"],["朱主計長澤民：是的。"],["林委員德福：但是我認為主計處，包括財政部，在這方面你們應該要多去著手，它一年賺多少錢，適當的回饋給員工，員工會更努力打拚，我認為這是很重要的。"],["朱主計長澤民：對，我們主計總處會做各種統計，讓各部會去努力，謝謝。"],["林委員德福：主計長，因為主計總處和國際貨幣基金組織（IMF）現在都上調臺灣今年經濟成長率的預測值，但是IMF也提到，最主要的風險是中國大陸房地產長期的低迷，需求將受到壓抑，通縮也會延續，其他考驗包括日益擴大的財政赤字，以及美中貿易關係的風險。我請問主計長，你認為中國風險對臺灣經濟的影響大不大？"],["朱主計長澤民：當然很大，因為我們有不少的臺商在那邊。"],["林委員德福：對，沒有錯，就是因為我們有很多大陸的臺商，他們要如何避免整個中國大陸內部風險的衝擊，你的看法呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：有時候在包工程的時候要特別注意，因為他們有些都是地方政府的工程，但是地方政府現在的債務很嚴重，有些甚至付不出款項來，所以去申請款項的時候，甚至會來查水電。"],["林委員德福：那我請問你，要是反過來，如果對臺灣這些衝擊，因為是我們去大陸投資的臺商，你認為對臺灣會不會有一定的影響？你認為我們政府應該怎麼去因應呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：對。這也是我們前幾年就鼓勵臺商回臺，這是一個很正確的措施。"],["林委員德福：就是只有鼓勵他們回臺，其他沒有什麼更好的政策？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，他們也透過適當的管道，像相關的陸委會，或者是跟他們說臺商有的權益，應該是依他們的法，我們來爭取。"],["林委員德福：主計長，世界經濟論壇（WEF）特別會議主席布倫德對於全球經濟展望發出警報，他表示全球債務比例已攀升到1820年代以來從未見過的水準，並提出已開發經濟體已面臨停滯性的通膨風險，呼籲各國採取正確財政措施，以避免全球陷入低成長的困境。我請問主計長，WEF主席布倫德的兩項警示，你認為臺灣要怎麼去因應呢？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告一下，這也是我們最近向財政部、跟主計總處努力讓債務降低，我們的債務已經從105年開始的百分之三十幾，降到目前只有百分之二十六點多，我們就是在這種態度之下預計會發生這些事，所以世界其他各國債務占GDP比率都上升，而我們是下跌的，財政部或者各部會的努力，就是一個很好的避免這種趨勢的最佳方式。"],["林委員德福：主計長，臺灣這幾年的物價上漲已經讓很多民眾怨聲載道，假如示警預測成真，請問經濟復甦力道是不是也會逐漸打折扣，甚至於轉向經濟衰退？會不會？"],["朱主計長澤民：跟委員報告，我們的物價上漲率相對於其他國家來講，委員也非常清楚，是相對比較低的，雖然我們最近幾年有上漲，但最近又開始有下緩的趨勢。"],["林委員德福：所以你認為影響應該不大？"],["朱主計長澤民：就是說我們相對其他國家是比較好的，但是我們還是要注意，譬如剛才我講的有關油價的影響。"],["林委員德福：主計長，今天委員會討論的題目是：如何改善受僱人員報酬占GDP比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質薪資。其實這個議題在去年10月25日就討論過，對於貧富差距創10年新高，薪資調整追不上物價上漲，主計長一直強調透過增加社福政策、預算的必要性，並且強調外界不要污名化社會福利支出是最大的撒幣，那麼我請問主計長，社福預算增加對貧富差距的縮小，你認為政府目前推動執行的成效，多數民眾都願意認同嗎？"],["朱主計長澤民：對，跟委員報告，雖然問題一樣，可是今天主席排這個題目是一個很好的題目，大家在這方面還是要繼續努力。"],["林委員德福：好。"],["朱主計長澤民：我可以跟各位講，我們的社福預算占總預算是26%，雖然我們尊重市場制度，但某些弱勢者在市場運作之下，仍然沒有能夠得到適當的生活水準，所以在這裡我必須說，社福的一些措施仍然繼續必要，像我們提高最低工資，或者租金補貼，或者其他長照等這一類的措施，就是我們努力的方向。"],["林委員德福：主計長，要是多數民眾都能夠認同，為什麼民怨會不斷？如果無法認同，那你認為是不是政府的社福政策做得不夠？還是社福政策只能治標，沒有辦法治本？"],["朱主計長澤民：我跟各位講，我們的社福經費在總預算裡面，一年大概都有超過四分之一，約七千多億，也許我們有適當的財源的話，我們可以有更努力的方向，也請各位不要對社福亂貼什麼的，謝謝。"],["林委員德福：最後一個議題，前天主計總處公布國富統計及家庭財富分配統計，時隔30年，這個統計結果和上次有很大的不同，30年前臺灣前20%最富有的家庭資產，是後20%最貧窮家庭資產的16倍；30年後，兩者資產差距擴大到66倍，請問主計長，貧富差距擴大，是不是資本主義國家發展下所產生的必要之惡？你的看法如何？"],["朱主計長澤民：這個是原因之一，不過我必須講，一般在比較的時候，沒有把最高的20%跟最低的20%做比較的，只有臺灣喜歡比較，我跟委員報告，因為……"],["林委員德福：只有臺灣比較喜歡比較？"],["朱主計長澤民：因為有些國家他們最低的那一層是負的，最高的一層跟負的比較是沒有意義的，所以國外都是用所謂的最高20%占的分配比多少來比較，因為最低的那個是負的，像德國就是負的，美國最低的一層只有一塊錢，因為他本來是負的，但為了比較，就用一塊錢來比較，所以最高跟最低差了有大概一百多萬倍。"],["林委員德福：貧富差距創新高，政府似乎採取一手調高社會福利預算、一手稅制改革模式，希望能夠緩衝，主計長，在某種程度上，政府似乎是採用貧富再分配的政策……"],["朱主計長澤民：貧富再分配要慎重，否則會很偏向共產主義，謝謝。"],["林委員德福：這樣子喔！好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員的質詢。","接著請吳秉叡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-20-11","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","吳秉叡","賴士葆","李彥秀","賴惠員","王世堅","李坤城","王鴻薇","黃珊珊","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","羅明才","顏寬恒","洪孟楷","楊瓊瓔","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","陳玉珍","黃秀芳","陳冠廷"],"page_start":51,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請行政院主計總處朱主計長澤民、財政部莊部長翠雲、經濟部、國家發展委員會、勞動部就\n「如何改善受僱人員報酬占 GDP 比重偏低現象，導引企業與勞工共享獲利，提升我國勞工實質\n薪資」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.55409375,"end":11.640968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.72534375,"end":12.822218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.14284375,"end":13.73346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.851593750000003,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.17971875,"end":20.90534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.39034375,"end":23.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.80784375,"end":29.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.190968750000003,"end":30.034718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.034718750000003,"end":30.254093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.69284375,"end":30.726593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.726593750000003,"end":41.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.58159375,"end":41.189093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.729093750000004,"end":50.689718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.06096875,"end":68.74596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.15534375,"end":68.56034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.74596875,"end":68.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.86409375000001,"end":68.96534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.96534375,"end":69.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.03284375,"end":88.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.92659375000001,"end":75.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.40721875,"end":76.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.62909375000001,"end":106.81596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.42159375,"end":93.14721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.73784375000001,"end":93.97409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.11971875,"end":108.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.40659375000001,"end":114.20721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.94159375000001,"end":113.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.78534375000001,"end":121.42971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.70409375000001,"end":136.98846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.93096875,"end":127.42034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.57909375,"end":138.55784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.76034375,"end":152.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.56846875000002,"end":162.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.10284375,"end":162.19971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.19971875000002,"end":165.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":162.35159375,"end":162.80721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.71846875,"end":164.56221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.67596875,"end":171.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.14346875,"end":171.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.46409375000002,"end":171.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.12221875,"end":188.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.77784375000002,"end":189.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.02659375000002,"end":195.03846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.03846875000002,"end":212.31846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.31846875000002,"end":219.00096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.47346875000002,"end":225.37971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":225.00846875000002,"end":231.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.16784375,"end":231.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.58971875,"end":231.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.97784375,"end":233.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.69909375,"end":233.71596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.71596875,"end":236.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.37784375,"end":257.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.23409375000003,"end":239.85846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":240.63471875000002,"end":241.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":257.07096875,"end":257.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":257.27346875,"end":258.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.47159375,"end":263.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.50534375,"end":258.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.41659375,"end":259.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.92221875,"end":264.09096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.09096875,"end":264.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.24284375,"end":264.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.31034375,"end":264.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.54659375,"end":264.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.56346875,"end":264.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":264.76596875,"end":264.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":264.79971875,"end":264.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.40721875,"end":266.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.58846875,"end":300.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":300.03471875,"end":300.08534375},{"speaker":"S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那個主計長你認為說這個目前整個通膨下降那應該還不至於這個讓這些新鮮人無感是不是你的看法這個是因為新鮮人有時候有些的那個是那個行業待遇比較高有些比較低當然啦 那個主計長我們尊重市場制度 謝謝"},{"start":165.891,"end":189.043,"text":"據您的了解因為臺灣這個經濟獲利表現很好的企業他們是不是在適當的應該要把一些獲利回歸在員工的薪水上面那這部分你認為到底這些就是獲利的這些企業有沒有"},{"start":190.183,"end":211.992,"text":"做到應該要把他獲利的部分提撥給員工來作為對那個委員的一個構想是很好那我們也希望企業能夠往這方面做大家共同來努力的相關的經濟部、財政部或者是勞動部都有一些激勵的措施"},{"start":212.432,"end":233.806,"text":"所以說我認為像這些既然你企業已經這個達到就是可能他獲利很好但是相對你也應該要照顧你的勞工是勞工努力的成果對我都希望每一個老闆都有像委員這般的胸懷謝謝那個主計長是的我認為那個本來你企業賺錢就是要"},{"start":237.349,"end":237.869,"text":"主計總處朱主計"},{"start":265.455,"end":280.566,"text":"因為主計總處和國際貨幣基金 IMF 現在都上調台灣今年的經濟成長率的預測值但是 IMF 也提到最主要的風險是中國大陸房地產長期的低迷"},{"start":282.147,"end":294.937,"text":"需求將受到壓抑．通說也會延續．其他考驗．包括日益擴大的財政赤字．以及美中貿易關係的風險．我請問主計長．你認為中國風險．對台灣經濟的影響．大不大"},{"start":300.501,"end":300.781,"text":"林德福議員"},{"start":330.441,"end":334.702,"text":"這也是我們前幾年的一個鼓勵台商回台是一個很正確的措施"},{"start":354.95,"end":380.148,"text":"就是只有鼓勵他回來其他沒有什麼更好的政策對 我們之所以他們也透過適當的那個管道像那個說像相關的陸委會啦或者是跟他們說當他們台商有的權益應該是給予說依法他們的法來做我們來爭取朱主計長因為世界經濟論壇WBF特別會議主席"},{"start":383.01,"end":409.235,"text":"不倫得對於全球經濟展望發出警報他表示全球債務比例已攀升到1820年代以來從未見過的水準並提出已開發經濟體已面臨停滯性的通膨風險呼籲各國採取正確財政措施以避免全球陷入低成長的困境我請問主計長"},{"start":410.635,"end":435.056,"text":"WEF 主席布倫德的兩項警示你認為臺灣要怎麼去因應呢?跟那個委員報告一下這也是我們最近向財政部跟主計總處就努力說讓債務降低我們的債務已經從那個105年我們開始的百分之三十幾降到目前只有百分之二十六點幾所以我們就是"},{"start":435.476,"end":435.496,"text":"主計長"},{"start":459.236,"end":473.869,"text":"因為臺灣這幾年的物價上漲都已經讓很多民眾怨聲載道那假如事情預測成真請問經濟復甦力道是不是也會逐漸的打折扣甚至於轉向經濟衰退會不會"},{"start":474.83,"end":491.046,"text":"我跟委員報告一下我們的一個物價上漲率相對於其他國家來講是委員也非常清楚是說是相對比較低的雖然我們最近幾年有上漲而且最近我們又開始說有下緩的趨勢"},{"start":492.828,"end":515.206,"text":"所以說你認為應該影響不大就是說我們是相對其他國家是比較好的但是我們還是要注意就是我剛才所講的那一個油價的影響那個主計長今天委員會要討論這個改善受僱人員報酬占GDP比重偏低的現象並引導企業與勞工共享"},{"start":515.946,"end":540.793,"text":"來提升勞工實質的薪資其實這個議題在去年10月25號就討論過那對於貧富差距創10年新高、薪資調整追不上物價的上漲那主計長一直強調透過社福的政策預算來增加的必要性並且強調外界不要污名化社會福利支出是最大的傻逼那我請問主計長"},{"start":542.253,"end":560.563,"text":"社福預算的增加．對貧富差距縮小．你認為政府目前推動執行的成效．多數民眾都願意認同嗎?對,跟那個委員報告一下這個是雖然問題是一樣可是我們今天主席弄這個題目是一個很好的題目"},{"start":562.243,"end":576.509,"text":"這方面還是要繼續努力的我可以跟各位講我們的社福佔我們的總預算26%因為我們雖然尊重市場制度但某些弱勢的話它在市場運作之下"},{"start":576.989,"end":577.269,"text":"林德福議員"},{"start":596.536,"end":625.277,"text":"主計長要是多數民眾都能夠認同那為什麼這個民怨會不斷如果無法認同那你認為是不是政府的社福政策做得不夠還是社福政策只能治標沒有辦法治本我跟各位講我們的社福的經費一年現在已經超過那個是在總預算裡面已經我剛才講的大概超過四分之一大概有七千多億的也許我們有適當的財源的話我們可以有更努力的方向"},{"start":626.618,"end":649.875,"text":"請各位不要誤這個是什麼都對社福的去亂貼說什麼最後一個議題主計長前天主計總處公布國戶統計與家庭財富的分配這個統計時隔30年統計結果和上次有很大的不同那就是30年前台灣前20%最富有的家庭資產"},{"start":651.056,"end":670.395,"text":"是後20%最貧窮家庭資產的16倍30年後現在兩者資產差距擴大到66倍那我請問主計長貧富差距擴大是不是資本主義國家追進下所產生的必要之惡你的看法勒"},{"start":671.035,"end":695.172,"text":"這個是原因之一不過我必須講一般在做比較的時候沒有把最高的百分之二十跟最低的百分之二十在做比較只有台灣喜歡比較我跟委員報告一下因為有些國家它的最低的那一層是負的那個最高的一層跟一個負的比較是沒有意義的所以國外的比較都是用所謂的說"},{"start":696.613,"end":697.914,"text":"因為屏幕差距創新高政府似乎採取"},{"start":719.733,"end":742.41,"text":"一手調高社會福利預算一手稅制改革的模式希望能夠緩衝那主計長在某種程度上政府似乎是採用貧富再分配的政策我那個貧富再分配要慎重因為那個是否則是很偏向那個共產主義謝謝這樣子喔好謝謝謝謝林委員的質詢請接著我們請吳秉樂委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"151950","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151950","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bacdad71bd86841721853afabeb86d4497f5010e6307119197fb243592e5149fa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:07:06 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11:10:01","影片長度":"00:08:06","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部、交通部、大陸委員會、財團法人海峽交流基金會、原住民族委員會就「針對陸方開放大陸觀光客來台具體回應及作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":486,"end_time":"2024-05-01T11:10:01+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T11:01:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":794,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（11時1分）主席好，我請交通部觀光署副署長。"],["主席：有請周副署長，謝謝。"],["周副署長廷彰：委員好。"],["丁委員學忠：副署長好。副署長，雲林縣這幾年來在我們張麗善縣長積極針對各鄉鎮的特色，開墾一些荒廢的地方，變成一些觀光的產業，但後疫情時代，這幾年來，除了六都以外，我們的觀光人口也都是上千萬人，這一點副署長應該都知道吧？"],["周副署長廷彰：我瞭解。"],["丁委員學忠：尤其是在我們虎尾，虎尾是一個文化鄉鎮。我們除了有一些文化古蹟以外，我們也是將這些文化古蹟都修繕好，不管日景還是夜景，我們有加上一些光環境，也創造了很多觀光人口。不過我們還有一個很好的特色，因為虎尾過去是因糖廠而起，它因糖廠而起，我們糖廠的五分車現在是全臺灣唯一還有在載運甘蔗的五分車。106年4月14日，蔡英文總統到虎尾去的時候，有坐到那輛五分車，他說這是一個很好、值得推廣的觀光產業，要求交通部要將它列入前瞻計畫，要去推動觀光小火車。108年6月25日，雲林縣政府把計畫書送到交通部之後，我們的小火車到現在還沒有看到影子，這個案子現在到底是怎麼樣？"],["周副署長廷彰：向委員報告，虎尾糖廠我去過好幾次，滿有特色的。雲林縣政府一些前瞻觀光的提案，觀光署也都很支持，包含上一期的計畫，像北港到虎尾，還有到金湖這邊的串聯，我們都相當支持，都有提供3億以上的經費。觀光列車的部分，這個可能還要再來瞭解一下，但是其他的觀光活動，不管是地方創生，或者是觀光的活動，還是觀光設施的建設，觀光署都非常支持雲林縣政府。"],["丁委員學忠：所以副署長，我要跟你說的是，針對我們糖廠的觀光小火車，同一時間嘉義蒜頭糖廠也一樣有送出這個計畫，結果你們是把這個計畫的經費全部都交給蒜頭糖廠去執行，虎尾的觀光小火車因此就沒了。這也是我們蔡總統之前在選舉時，他到虎尾的時候給我們虎尾人的承諾，我們虎尾人大家都非常高興看到可以來促成這個觀光小火車，可以促進更好的觀光。","再來，雲林縣政府為了要迎接觀光小火車，已經把觀光的景觀道路、鐵路的景觀都已經做好了，縣政府也發了好幾次公文到中央，到交通部，要求交通部趕快把經費撥下來執行，到現在都沒消沒息。"],["周副署長廷彰：向委員報告，根據我的理解是要做自行車道啦，從西螺到虎尾、北港自行車道的串聯，自行車道的部分交通部都很支持的。"],["丁委員學忠：自行車道是自行車道的部分，我說的這個觀光小火車，這是我們虎尾的特色，這是特色！自行車道的部分，那是到處都有，到處都有啊，我現在說的是地方的特色，不是針對自行車道而已。再怎麼樣，我們也要針對我們地方的特色來推廣才對啊，讓這個歷史可以永遠都留著，讓這個特色可以讓全國的人去到虎尾，瞭解到我們的糖廠文化，對吧？所以這個案子我們是不是還可以繼續執行下去？"],["周副署長廷彰：向委員報告，這一案我回來後再去瞭解一下，因為上一次雲林縣政府的提案並沒有看到這一案，委員所提的糖廠小火車，我再去瞭解一下……"],["丁委員學忠：不是，據我所知，這一案據說已經銷案了，有這回事嗎？在交通部這邊已經銷案了，以我所瞭解的是這樣的。"],["周副署長廷彰：觀光署這裡現在並沒有這個資料……"],["丁委員學忠：照理說，這是在推動地方觀光，你們也是責無旁貸，既然是責無旁貸，你們應該要下去協助才對，而不是說將這個推給交通部，交通部再推給鐵路局，鐵路局推給經濟部，推來推去，推一圈之後案子就不見了，對不對？這樣做哪是實際在推廣地方的觀光，對不對？所以這一案拜託副署長回去以後再去瞭解一下，一個月內給我一個訊息，看它是不是可以再繼續執行，這樣好不好？"],["周副署長廷彰：我們會後再去瞭解一下。"],["丁委員學忠：再麻煩你了，感謝副署長。","接著我想要請陸委會副主任委員。"],["主席：有請李副主委，謝謝。"],["丁委員學忠：副主委好，第一次看到你。剛才我在電視及在現場也看了很多委員針對這一陣子大陸恢復福建居民前往馬祖旅遊，也恢復福建平潭到馬祖的客輪船，客運輪船已經可以開始行駛了。剛才我有聽到陸委會的回復是說，因為其他地區沒有開放，所以這個安排並不符合對等開放的原則，也不是觀光旅遊的一個常態。我覺得很奇怪，照理說政府應該是要針對全民的福利，全民的利益為優先才對，而不是用政治角力的方式去對幹，這會影響到誰？也是影響到我們國民，影響到我們的旅行業，影響到很多我們的商業店家，對吧？所以有時候我們在看待每一件事情時，心胸應該要放得更寬一些，心胸必須要放寬。我們也是一個國家，我們不是人家的附屬單位，我們都認為我們是一個國家！既然我們是一個國家，就用國家跟國家要對談的方式，大家互相，大家要交流嘛，心胸必須要放寬，你對我有誠意，我對你也要釋出善意啊。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是、是、是。"],["丁委員學忠：你不能只是一直這樣說！人家已經開始對我們展現誠意了，我們一樣還要侷限我們自己，對吧？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：不會、不會啦。"],["丁委員學忠：所以下個月組團赴陸的禁團令，我是要求必須要解除，我們不能這樣！人家一直要走到我們臺灣來，我們還一直在退步，我們一直在退步，這樣也不行。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：有，現在各個單位正在研議當中。"],["丁委員學忠：所以我是期待你們啦，我相信新政府上任以後，也是對於我們整個國家的經濟發展充滿很多的想法，我們要為百姓、百工百業來著想，好不好？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是，委員的意見一定會納進去。"],["丁委員學忠：好，再麻煩你，感謝。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝丁學忠委員的質詢，謝謝李副主委，謝謝。","現在處理臨時提案，今天臨時提案共5案，請宣讀。","一、","2023年8月，我國大陸委員會曾釋出善意表示期望以平等互惠原則期望我國與中國同時開放禁團令，雖未獲中國回應，我國交通部仍於2023年11月宣布開放定額團客赴中；然而，中國不但無平等互惠回應，甚至更進一步於2024年1月片面宣布M503航線更貼近海峽中線，逼近我國限航區，且公告開放W122、W123西向東航路，造成我國空防壓力，顯示我國在對中交流、溝通上的真心換絕情，為我國被迫恢復禁團客赴中令主因之一。在我國提出嚴正抗議後，中國仍未經國際規範，逕自於2024年4月19日片面啟用W122、W123西向東航路，造成區域航情及飛航管制作業複雜度增加，遇有天候不良或航機飛行操作異常時，大幅升高飛安風險，雖中國文化和旅遊部於2024年4月28日率先宣布恢復福建居民到馬祖旅遊，然而，中國對台的威嚇及善意比例相符與否，仍有可議之處，爰此，大陸委員會應會同相關部會，在以捍衛對等交流為前提，研議我國是否開放組團赴中及開放範圍，並持續提出措施協助或輔導受影響業者。","提案人：蘇巧慧　　張宏陸　　吳琪銘　　王美惠　　李柏毅　　黃　捷","二、","案由：觀光產業的復興重點在人流，唯0403花蓮大地震至今，花東地區觀光產業因餘震不斷，導致國人不願前往旅遊。如今大陸文旅部今宣布，開放大陸福建民眾赴馬祖旅遊，為兩岸觀光帶來曙光。馬祖國家風景管理處處長黃勢芳表示，開放陸客將為馬祖地區帶來5億元的觀光收入，足見人流對觀光產業興盛是有極大關連，政府除訂定0403花東地區觀光復振獎勵措施外，更應積極爭取大陸遊客直航花東進行觀光，藉由人潮刺激花東地區的觀光產業復甦，爰提案要求大陸委員會、交通部於一個月內就陸客團直航花東地區提出書面報告，以利花東地區觀光產業復振。","提案人：黃建賓　　許宇甄　　高金素梅　牛煦庭　　廖先翔","三、","案由：0403大地震對花蓮縣造成極大極大的傷害，政府將主要資源投入花蓮震災重建實屬應為，然花東地區產業是一脈相連，尤其是觀光產業不僅花蓮受到極大傷害，臺東縣觀光產業鏈也因地震受到牽連，如今花蓮地區餘震不斷，連帶造成國人不願前往臺東地區觀光，而今台東縣旅宿業平均訂房率只剩3成，比往年高達8成訂房率大幅減少，若遊客遲遲不來，臺東縣有旅宿業者經營不下去，花東的相關產業發展是唇齒相依，尤其觀光產業更是如此，爰要求交通部觀光署應就0403花蓮大地震後臺東縣觀光產業扶助措施研議相關獎扶助播施，並比照「前進宜花東．高屏暖冬遊」模式，補助國民國內旅遊，藉此引導國人前往臺東地區觀光，共創花東地區觀光榮景。","提案人：黃建賓　　許宇甄　　高金素梅　牛煦庭　　廖先翔","四、","案由：鑒於0403花蓮大地震後，凸顯花東地區交通的脆弱性，再者從921大地震經驗來看，大地震過後地質相關不穩定，如遇大雨易發生土使流災害，而4月22日大雨就造成台9線土石流，公路、鐵路因而一度中斷，坐實了花東地區北上交通恐將進入不穩定的狀態，政府應就相關問題儘早進行妥善規劃，如增加花東地區往返各直轄市班機、機票減免與鐵路優惠票價，降低對交通中斷對花東地區居民的影響，爰提案要求交通部於一個月內提出書面報告，以維護花東地區住民通行權益。","提案人：黃建賓　　許宇甄　　高金素梅　牛煦庭　　廖先翔"],["項目：五、","案由：為促進兩岸觀光交流，建請交通部、陸委會等相關部會立即開放福建平潭往返台灣的客運運輸，推動福建民眾赴台團客旅遊，俾利人民往返兩岸更為便利，增加民間互動了解，兩岸將創造互惠互利雙贏，是中華民國之幸、是2350萬全民之福。","說明：","一、為促進兩岸融冰，本（113）年4月28日由代表民意的17位國會議員出訪大陸，促進兩岸和平交流，良性溝通，理性對話，避免惡意螺旋不斷上升，民進黨做不到、不願做、不想做，只有國民黨積極做、努力做、認真在做。","二、大陸官方接連宣布：捐助花蓮震災災民組合屋、開放文旦柚恢復輸陸、重啟大陸福建居民赴馬祖觀光及福建省政府新一波13項惠台措施，成果豐碩。這些成果也再次證明，兩岸不管官方還是民間，只要理性溝通、良性對話，受惠的絕對是台灣的百工百業、全體善良的台灣民眾，兩岸絕對不是只有對抗、衝突，民進黨所堅持的「抗中保台」，事實上是持續害台、讓敵意螺旋越加上升。","三、基於兩岸和平交流，並符合未來賴總統的主張：「共產黨要與民選、合法的執政黨對談。」，爰此，相關惠台措施，將於520接任的賴清德政府，應積極回應落實處理，如何多元交流、活絡兩岸經貿、觀光旅遊活動，人民往返兩岸更便利，是當務之急。","提案人：許宇甄　　張智倫　　丁學忠　　徐欣瑩　　黃建賓　　牛煦庭"],["主席：主席在此宣布：第1案照案通過；第2案、第3案、第4案完成溝通，有一些文字修正，按照修正通過；現在是提案第5案部分……"],["傅委員崐萁：第1案……"],["主席：第1案照案通過啊，這是民進黨的提案，剛剛議事人員……"],["徐委員欣瑩：有一些文字上的修正。"],["蘇委員巧慧：第1案不同意喔？"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒有，文字上的修正。"],["主席：對不起，請問議事人員，剛剛民進黨的這個臨時提案有跟國民黨的人討論過嗎？"],["郭專門委員明政：沒有，可能他們提案是……"],["主席：所以你們是有意見，是不是？"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒關係啦，我們來討論一下。"],["主席：好，不好意思，我現在修正一下。","我在這邊再宣布一下：抱歉，因為議事人員給我寫的是這樣子，所以我一直以為溝通過了，抱歉。好，第1案跟第5案我們現在溝通一下，第2案、第3案、第4案已經完成溝通，按照修正文字通過。","我們休息5分鐘來溝通一下第1案跟第5案。謝謝。","休息（11時16分）","繼續開會（11時29分）"],["主席：好，謝謝大家，在各方的努力之下，我們有一些文字修正。","現在處理第1案，請議事人員唸一下文字修正的部分。"],["王秘書珮瑛：第二行「期望我國與中國」修正為「期望臺灣與大陸」、「雖未獲中國回應」修正為「雖未獲大陸回應」；第五行「逼近我國限航區」修正為「逼近臺灣限航區」。"],["主席：請問在場委員，這樣的文字修正OK嗎？好，我們就按照這樣的修正文字通過。","現在處理第5案，請議事人員唸一下文字修正的部分。"],["王秘書珮瑛：案由的「為促進兩岸觀光交流」前面增加「臺灣與大陸」；說明一後段從「避免惡意螺旋」到最後整段刪除；說明二的「民進黨所堅持的『抗中保台』，事實上是持續害台、讓敵意螺旋越加上升」這段文字刪除。"],["主席：請問在場委員，這樣的文字修正OK？好，第5案按照這樣的修正文字通過。謝謝大家，謝謝。","我們現在不休息，繼續開會，大家辛苦了！","現在請廖先翔委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":506,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","李柏毅","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","傅崐萁","廖先翔","鄭天財Sra 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副署長好副署長我們分人觀這幾年來在我們中聯線館長這次來對著高雄電的特性來開墾一些荒廢的地方 變成一些觀光的產業當後疫情時代這幾年來我們在六島以外我們的觀光林口也是眾情萬能這樣這副署長應該都會知道"},{"start":41.084,"end":41.344,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":57.452,"end":61.555,"text":"家鄉、觀光環境、創造價值的觀光林口但我們還有一個很好的特色因為好位過去是因唐倉而起因唐倉而起,後來我們這個唐倉的五分車現在是全台灣唯一擁有的五分車一共六年四月十四"},{"start":81.289,"end":89.177,"text":"我們蔡英文總統有去到河外有坐到那五分車她說這是一個很好推廣的觀光商業要求我們交通部要做列入前瞻計畫要推動觀光小火車"},{"start":99.847,"end":100.248,"text":"這案現在到底是怎樣?"},{"start":114.213,"end":141.633,"text":"向委員報告,這個豪邁的騰訊都蓋過了蓋,沒有特色的啦那雲林縣政府一些的前瞻觀光的提案那個觀光署都很支持,包含上一期的計畫,像這個北港到湖北還有到這個金湖這邊的串聯所以我們相當支持,都有提供3億以上的那個經費那這個觀光列車的部分,這個可能還要再來瞭解一下,但是那個"},{"start":142.373,"end":154.203,"text":"其他觀光的活動．不管是地方創生．或是說觀光的活動．還是說觀光設施的建設．觀光署都非常支持允賢建構．所以分署長．我告訴你．尤其對我們鄉鄉的觀光小火車．同一時間．我們這隔壁蒜頭．也一樣上出這個結尾．結果我們是把這個結尾．這個經費全部蒜頭進行．"},{"start":167.575,"end":167.775,"text":"丁學忠議員"},{"start":193.982,"end":196.482,"text":"請問報告,因為我理解是要用的自行車道自行車道有塞雷跟方位跟北港這個自行車道的串聯"},{"start":220.567,"end":225.71,"text":"自行車道是反自行車道,我講的這個觀光小火車,這是我們虎尾的特色,這是特色自行小火車的自行車的車道,那四個都有,四個都有,我講的是地方的特色"},{"start":239.979,"end":249.206,"text":"不是說這個自行車道而已,我們為什麼要針對我們地方的這個特色來推廣才對,讓這個力士可以因為都老了,讓這個特色可以讓全國的人去更好地了解到我們這個唐產文化,對吧?"},{"start":257.845,"end":275.678,"text":"所以這案我們還可以繼續下去執行委員報告這案我回來再了解因為我上一次余烈先生沒有提案是沒有看到這案委員說不是啦,他在所在啦他在所在說這案已經消案了有沒有在我們交通部這裡說消案了"},{"start":283.607,"end":288.81,"text":"以我所了解：丁學忠,這是推動電影館公正嗎?你是責無方待。對,你是責無方待,要下去做才對。不是說,交通法,撤去鐵路局,撤去經濟法,撤來撤去,撤去年總要放假。"},{"start":308.473,"end":308.653,"text":"有請李副主委"},{"start":335.926,"end":344.129,"text":"副主委好 第一次看到你剛才我在電視、在現場也看到很多委員 針對我們這7張我們這個大陸大陸回合到福建基金會跟我們做這個旅遊已經也回合到我們這個福建平潭跟我們做客運這個客運的輪船已經可以開始行駛了我認為"},{"start":365.711,"end":370.335,"text":"我聽到說我們陸委會的回覆是說因為其他陸服務沒有開放這個案件沒有符合對等開放的原則也不是觀光理由的一個常態我在這裡覺得奇怪我們政府叫你說我們是要針對全民的福利、全民的利益為優先才對不是用政治角力的方式"},{"start":391.806,"end":392.006,"text":"丁學忠議員"},{"start":407.19,"end":415.416,"text":"法定要觀光客開來,法定要觀光客開來,我們也是一個國家,我們不是副屬單位,我們都認為我們是一個國家,我們是一個國家,我們用我們國家跟國家對談的方式,我們大家互相,大家在交流"},{"start":425.924,"end":430.151,"text":"發展觀光客開放你對我有誠意我對你也要釋出善意你不能一直說已經開始對我們有誠意我們觀光局限我們自己"},{"start":437.622,"end":438.903,"text":"現在各單位正在演繹當中"},{"start":459.557,"end":459.717,"text":"我們現在來處理臨時題目"}]}},{"id":"151948","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151948","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b3f73177a5cb37e12af7b9089f19fa5f77f5010e630711919753ba3a61f17f3475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐欣瑩","委員發言時間":"10:51:33 - 11:00:18","影片長度":"00:08:45","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部、交通部、大陸委員會、財團法人海峽交流基金會、原住民族委員會就「針對陸方開放大陸觀光客來台具體回應及作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":525,"end_time":"2024-05-01T11:00:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T10:51:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":695,"blocks":[["徐委員欣瑩：（10時51分）謝謝主席，本席請陸委會還有交通部。"],["主席：李副主委、周副署長。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：本席首先想請問交通部周副署長。"],["周副署長廷璋：是，委員好。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們請問一下，平潭到臺灣的客運運輸以前是都開放的嘛，對不對？後來是什麼原因停止的？"],["周副署長廷璋：這部分是不是由我們航政司司長說明？"],["徐委員欣瑩：由航政司？好，航政司。"],["韓司長振華：報告委員，一樣是因為疫情的關係。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對嘛，現在還有疫情嗎？繼續，現在還有疫情嗎？"],["韓司長振華：報告委員，我們的指揮中心已經解除了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，疫情已經解除，那為什麼還沒開放？"],["韓司長振華：這部分我們就是會按照兩岸的一些需求……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是啦，為什麼還沒開放？你因為疫情停止，現在疫情解除了，為什麼還沒開放？"],["韓司長振華：這部分我們會朝向健康有序的方式來推動。"],["徐委員欣瑩：什麼朝向健康有序？你說是因為疫情才停止啊，現在已經沒有疫情了，為什麼不開放？理由是什麼？你要給全國人民一個說法。"],["韓司長振華：報告委員，這個部分我們會朝這方向來努力，不過還是會看整個市場的需求，跟兩岸的政策來做整體的評估。"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以問題就出在你們嘛，對不對？平潭到臺灣因為疫情停止，現在疫情沒了，不開放嗎？好，本席接著要問，在馬政府時代，我相信我們副主委或者是在座各位都是事務官，你們應該都在相關單位，在馬英九政府時代，陸客來臺一年五百、六百萬人，臺灣人去大陸大概三百多萬人，我們也沒說什麼平等互惠啊！為什麼前面這8年，來臺陸客就這麼少？剛剛很多委員在質詢平等互惠，你們都沒有說實話啊！什麼叫平等互惠？","本席接著說明，在今天你們的報告裡面，你提到4月28號前幾天你們的新聞稿，你們一直強調我方、我們臺灣在去（112）年的8月24號已經公布相關規劃，然後結論說只要陸方開放即可實施，為什麼你不說其實在今年的2月28號就暫緩執行了？還有剛剛很多委員都問你們，我們是不是都還可以赴大陸？你們說是。其實這一塊是有但書的，在228你宣布了，已經喊原規劃暫難執行之後，你只是把都已經登記的民眾、人家也規劃好的，讓他還有一個緩衝期到5月底，你其實是已經阻絕了。但你還一直回答所有委員說：我們都開放，我們都開放。我們哪裡有開放？我們完全沒有開放啊！這第一個。","再來，我們一直講2019年陸方來兩百多萬，我們去三百多萬，對啊！那時候來可以兩百多萬，然後我們去可以三百多萬，為什麼現在不能開放？我們都規劃好，我們陸委會有沒有去跟大陸做溝通，有沒有？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們的旅遊，陸客是有一個兩岸旅遊協議的，旅遊協議平臺裡面就是有一個溝通管道，所以那個部分兩邊的觀光主管部門是有持續在做溝通的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：持續在溝通？溝通了什麼？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：跟委員報告，剛剛講到對等的部分，因為我們要求的對等，是陸方要讓他們的組團社可以組團到臺灣來旅遊……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，OK，對……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們才會讓我們的組團社可以去大陸。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在本席要問一個重點……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：我們現在是不是有限制，一天陸客可以來多少人？上限？你請說。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：因為這個是從過去……"],["徐委員欣瑩：2,000人，是不是？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：沒有，從過去開放陸客，我們就有一個循序漸進的所謂數額……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，沒關係嘛，現在我們一天開放多少人嘛？2,000嘛！"],["李副主任委員麗珍：目前規劃是2,000。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對，所以今天所有委員都在問，大陸要完全開放啊！他們全國各省都要可以來啊！它各省都要來，但你一天只有2,000人，它怎麼來？這點你就應該要講啊！"],["李副主任委員麗珍：跟委員報告，因為過去我們沒有做限額的時候，我們看20……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不要講過去，我在談現在的政策，你現在2,000人……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我是跟您報告為什麼現在會先用2,000，我們就是拿2019年……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好啦，沒關係啦，所以你現在只要回答我……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：陸客的規模，每天……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你不要浪費我時間。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們未來是可以放寬的啊！"],["徐委員欣瑩：請暫停，請暫停，我現在不要你回答……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：未來是可以放寬的。"],["徐委員欣瑩：請暫停，請暫停，拜託主席，時間是我的。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是。"],["徐委員欣瑩：現在2,000人，你現在一天只能2,000人，你要它全部開放，我請教您，您知道福建省有多少人嗎？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：過去都開放，它也沒有那麼多人來……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，福建省的人口數有多少？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：跟委員報告，我們疫情之前……"],["徐委員欣瑩：回答人口數嘛！"],["李副主任委員麗珍：不是，疫情之前，我們也是全部開放的時候，一天就是2,000人……"],["徐委員欣瑩：主席，他答非所問，請暫停，請暫停時間。"],["主席：請副主委針對質詢委員詢問的問題回答，好不好？不要浪費他時間，謝謝。"],["徐委員欣瑩：福建省有多少人，你知道就說知道，回答就好，不知道……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：好，三千多萬。"],["徐委員欣瑩：將近五千萬。好，三千多萬人也比臺灣兩千多萬多很多嘛，對不對？我們當然希望他們能夠各省都來，但是現在你設定一天只有2,000人，你要人家怎麼來？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：跟委員報告，設定這個是過去以來都是這樣，我們會逐步放寬。"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，我就講，如果我今天兩個廠商，我一天只能供應2,000個產品，我拜託你下1億的訂單，人家怎麼下？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：那是每天受理的，不是每天進來的人。"],["徐委員欣瑩：一樣啊，對啊，你就會希望多嘛！2,000……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們當然希望多……"],["徐委員欣瑩：你一天2,000，一年滿的話多少人？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：只要……"],["徐委員欣瑩：一年多少嘛？2,000人，一年多少人啊？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：一年後會放寬。"],["徐委員欣瑩：對啊，所以你現在也是會放寬……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：但是我們不能一開始就設定那麼多的期待，讓很多業者就去投資了，到時候像大陸突然又把它關掉，我們必須要負責任的逐步來放寬，所以先2,000……"],["徐委員欣瑩：好，你全部都假設性，它又停掉，你有沒有去瞭解？人家又停掉，你有沒有去瞭解？不好意思，主席再給我幾十秒的時間，今天假設你是在做生意，我不相信有一個公司，我原本有訂單突然沒訂單以後，這個公司會說「不要管它、不要管它，訂單就不要了」，你們有去溝通嗎？完全沒有嘛！你們只有隔空喊話，你們只有放話……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：沒有，我們做生意也不能說只做一家嘛！"],["徐委員欣瑩：當然沒有只做一家啊！"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們會考慮其他往來的對象，然後我們也要……"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是啦，你每一家都要掌握，現在我們要再談某一家的業務嘛！"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們一樣要穩健，先2,000，如果順順利利我們還會再開放嘛，不要一開始就期待那麼大，讓大家都去投資了。"],["徐委員欣瑩：不是，你不要開放那麼多，可是你要人家來那麼多，你剛剛的回答一直都是這樣。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我就是跟委員報告，過去……"],["徐委員欣瑩：沒關係，我們就把這個呈現在國人面前，讓我們臺灣人民清楚知道。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：過去大陸放所有城市來的時候，我們也是有配額的限制啊！不是現在才這樣子啦！"],["徐委員欣瑩：所以啊，過去這樣子，其實即便過去都還輸給馬英九政府時代嘛！"],["李副主任委員麗珍：所以我們是逐步嘛！"],["徐委員欣瑩：你知道嗎？臺灣人民期待很久了，因為臺灣的經濟蕭條，大家都很希望能夠活絡。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：委員，一開始的時候，一天只有1,000台。"],["徐委員欣瑩：還有最後，我們開放農產品過去，陸委會的立場是什麼？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們的農產品輸大陸當然是OK啊。"],["徐委員欣瑩：OK，所以新竹縣很多柑橘，又甜美又好，是不是可以……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：所以我們才不希望大陸用這種什麼檢驗、檢疫、病蟲害來擋……"],["主席：謝謝，謝謝委員質詢，也謝謝李副主委。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：李副主委，請問你一下，按照你這樣子的邏輯，農民就不要多種，因為萬一哪一天大陸說我們不買你的農產物的時候，農民的東西就出不去，所以你是不是要代表農委會也講話一下？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：就是我們一開始不要給大家那麼大的期待，穩健的……"],["主席：你是陸委會副主委，你怎麼會變成在幫人民、老百姓講說他不要投資。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：因為我們要放多少客人來，業者要去做……"],["主席：好啦，李副主委，你這樣子越講大家就越清楚，其實是李副主委、陸委會，你們早就有限制大陸客來臺灣的上限，這樣的上限，你所說的……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：這個上限是從以前到現在都是這樣……"],["主席：請你不要說話！召委沒有請你說！"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是、是，請召委，不好意思，對不起。"],["主席：現在委員在質詢你的時候，你說了，你說擔心如果我們開放很多名額的話，萬一他們禁止我們臺灣人進去的話，民間的投資會求訴無門，你這是副主委應該講的話嗎？所以希望副主委以後在這邊答詢的時候，不要隨便的答詢，這樣大家聽起來會很奇怪你的身分，好不好？謝謝你。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：謝謝召委。"],["主席：繼續我們請丁學忠委員質詢，丁學忠委員質詢完畢之後，我們要來處理臨時提案，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":506,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","李柏毅","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","傅崐萁","廖先翔","鄭天財Sra 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關係對嘛吼那現在還有疫情嗎來繼續現在還有疫情嗎發委員我們的指揮中心已經解除了對疫情解除那為什麼還沒開放"},{"start":47.649,"end":71.946,"text":"這部分我們就是會按照兩岸的一些需求不是啦為什麼還沒開放你因為疫情停止那現在疫情解除了為什麼還沒開放這部分我們會朝向這是健康有序的方式來做推動什麼朝向健康有序那你現在已經你說是因為疫情才這個停止啊那現在已經沒有疫情了為什麼不開放理由是什麼你要給全國人民一個說法"},{"start":72.898,"end":90.466,"text":"報告委員這部分就是我們會朝這方向來努力不過還是會看整個市場的一個需求跟兩岸的政策所以啊所以問題就出在出在你們嗎對不對平潭到臺灣因為疫情停止現在疫情沒了不開放好那接著本席接著要問"},{"start":91.758,"end":110.377,"text":"在馬政府時代我相信這個我們副主委或者是在座各位都是事務官嘛你們應該都在相關單位在馬英九政府時代入客來台一年五六百萬人然後我們台灣人去大陸大概三百多萬人"},{"start":111.84,"end":121.856,"text":"我們也沒說什麼平等互惠啊那為什麼到了這個前面這八年我們入客來台就這麼少"},{"start":124.095,"end":143.992,"text":"剛剛很多委員在質詢說平等互惠你們都沒有說實話啊什麼叫平等互惠那現在接著本席來說明在今天你們的說明裡面報告裡面你提到4月28號就是前幾天你們的新聞稿"},{"start":144.713,"end":173.112,"text":"你們一直強調我方在就是我們台灣在112年去年的8月24號已經公布相關規劃然後你結論說只要陸方開放即可實施那你為什麼不說你其實在今年的2月28號你就暫緩執行了還有剛剛很多委員都在問你們說我們是不是都還可以赴大陸你們說是其實這一塊是有但書的你228你已經喊"},{"start":175.134,"end":200.452,"text":"這個原規則原規劃戰難執行之後你只是把已經你宣布了以後人家已經這個民眾都已經登記人家也規劃好的你讓他還有一個緩衝期到5月底你其實是已經阻絕了那你還一直回答所有委員說我們都開放我們都開放我們哪裡有開放我們完全沒有開放啊這第一個再來"},{"start":204.166,"end":213.854,"text":"我們現在這個陸方我們這個20192019我們一直這個講說我們2019年來200多萬我們去300多萬對啊那時候可以200多萬現在然後我們去可以300多萬那為什麼現在不能開放"},{"start":229.407,"end":254.526,"text":"我們都規劃好,我們陸委會有沒有去跟大陸做溝通?我們的旅遊,陸客是有一個兩岸旅遊協議的那旅遊協議平台裡面就是有一個溝通管道所以那個部分兩邊的觀光主管部門是有持續在做溝通的持續在溝通,那溝通了什麼?"},{"start":255.487,"end":276.649,"text":"阿根委員報告說剛剛講到這個對等的部分是因為我們要求的對等是說陸方要讓他們的組團社可以組團到台灣來旅遊那現在本席要問一個重點我們現在是不是有限制一天陸客可以來多少人上線你請說"},{"start":278.09,"end":278.591,"text":"目前規劃是2000"},{"start":295.745,"end":304.218,"text":"大陸要完全開放啊!他們全國各省都要可以來啊!他各省都要來一天只有2000人他怎麼來?這點你就應該要講啊!"},{"start":310.106,"end":335.148,"text":"跟委員報告,因為過去我們沒有做限額的時候,我們看20...你不要講過去,我現在在談現在的政策,所以你現在2000人...我就是跟您報告為什麼現在會先用2000,我們就是拿2019年...好啦沒關係啊,所以現在2000人你只要回答我,你不要浪費我時間。我們未來是可以放寬的啊。請暫停,請暫停,我現在不讓你回答,請暫停,拜託主席,時間是我的。是,是。"},{"start":335.848,"end":344.195,"text":"所以你現在2000人那你現在一天只能2000人你要他全部開放我請教你您知道福建省有多少人嗎?"},{"start":347.504,"end":371.672,"text":"福建省的人口數有多少?那就是跟委員報告回答人口數嗎?疫情之前我們也是全部開放的時候我請暫停我請暫停時間福建省有多少人你知道就說知道回答多少嗎?相近五千萬三千多萬人也比台灣兩千多萬多很多"},{"start":374.055,"end":382.052,"text":"我們當然希望說他們能夠各省都來但是你現在你設定一天只有2000人你要人家怎麼來"},{"start":383.175,"end":389.76,"text":"好!這個我就講今天如果我今天兩個廠商我一天只能供應2000個產品我拜託你下一億的訂單人家怎麼下那是每天秀禮的不是每天進來的人一樣啊對啊那你就希望多嘛你2000人一年"},{"start":403.93,"end":427.736,"text":"滿的話一年多少人?一年多少嗎?兩千人一年多少人嗎?對啊,所以啊,你現在已經過於放寬我們不能一開始就設定那麼多的期待那很多業者就去投資了然後到時候,像大陸突然又把它關掉了那我們就,我們不想負責任了逐步來放寬所以你全部都假設性"},{"start":428.416,"end":447.416,"text":"他又停掉你有沒有去了解包括人家又停掉你有沒有去了解今天不好意思主席再給我幾十秒的時間今天假設你是在做生意我不相信有一個公司我原本有訂單突然沒訂單以後這個公司會說不要管他不要管他訂單就不要了你們有去溝通嗎完全沒有嘛"},{"start":448.236,"end":473.098,"text":"你們只得空喊話我們只有放話我們做生意也不能說只做一家嘛當然沒有只做一家我們會考慮其他的往來的對象不是啦那你每一家你都要掌握現在我們都在談論一家的業務嘛我們先兩千嘛如果真的順順利利我們還在開放嘛不要一開始就期待那麼大那大家都去投資嘛你不要開放那麼多可是你要人家來那麼多"},{"start":473.959,"end":496.818,"text":"你剛剛的回答一直都是這樣所以沒關係我們就把這個呈現在國人面前讓我們台灣人民清楚知道過去大陸放所有城市來的時候我們也是有配額的限制啊不是現在才這樣子啊過去這樣子所以其實即便過去都還輸給馬英九政府世代嗎所以你知道嗎"},{"start":497.939,"end":506.025,"text":"臺灣人民期待很久了因為臺灣的經濟蕭條大家都很希望能夠活絡還有最後我們開放農產品過去陸委會的立場是什麼我們的農產品輸大陸當然是OK啊所以我新竹縣很多的單局這個要全美要好是不是可以解驗、檢疫並重來來講謝謝謝謝委員子謝謝李副主席"}]}},{"id":"151947","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151947","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b7244df0bbe844f79af7b9089f19fa5f77f5010e630711919f7d8ca10ff378d0f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳琪銘","委員發言時間":"10:42:11 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10:49:43","影片長度":"00:07:32","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部、交通部、大陸委員會、財團法人海峽交流基金會、原住民族委員會就「針對陸方開放大陸觀光客來台具體回應及作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":452,"end_time":"2024-05-01T10:49:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T10:42:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":632,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（10時42分）主席及與會同仁。請陸委會副主委，還有觀光署副署長。"],["主席：有請李副主委、周副署長。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，副主委以及觀光署的副署長。"],["周副署長廷彰：委員好。"],["吳委員琪銘：針對我們現在所談論的兩岸開放旅遊問題，本席在這邊真的也是非常地期待觀光業能早日開放，也要秉持平等互惠的原則，這是我們的前提嘛。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：依本席這邊的資料，我還是滿訝異，因為中國大陸有14億人口，臺灣的人口只有2,300萬，比例是1比70，你說2023年我們赴中國大陸有176萬人次，中國大陸來臺只有22萬，這個懸殊真的有夠大，是不是兩岸要重啟開放旅遊業的觀光？是不是我們都是很贊成？","早上我看我們的質詢，政府也都準備好了，就是等對岸的回應，因為大家都是基於平等互惠的原則，這是我們要去努力，陸委會是不是請副主委回答，你們要怎樣來平衡旅遊業？你們有什麼措施來促進兩岸的觀光？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：對於兩岸的觀光，當然我們是歡迎陸客來臺，因為我們看到2019年，就是疫情之前，大陸的陸客來臺灣還有兩百多萬，當然我們國人去也大概有三百萬左右，這部分在疫情之後，我們就主動地歡迎陸客能夠組團來，但是因為陸客能夠組團來臺的話，必須由他們的政府同意他們的組團社可以帶團體旅遊到臺灣，因為他們要開放，政府同意他們的組團社組團，組團社才能夠帶到臺灣，所以我們先公布這樣的政策，表示我們已經準備好了，希望陸方能夠儘快地開放他們的組團社前來。","這個部分，當然以目前來看，我們一直秉持要對等，所以我們一直在講說，如果他們的組團社能夠帶團來的話，我們才會放我們的組團社可以組團去大陸；對於其他國人的部分，因為我們本來就沒有限制，我們還是秉持平等互惠的原則來推動兩邊團體旅遊的部分。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為從本席這邊的資料，你看2019年陸客赴金門旅遊有30.3萬人次，那到馬祖只有6,500人次。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：對，6,500人。"],["吳委員琪銘：6,500人，開放一個馬祖……福建開放到馬祖來觀光，意義也不大啊！你要開放，連我們本土都開放，這樣大家的人數可以來對照嘛！它來多少、我們過去多少，這樣才能促進兩岸觀光的產業，才能符合我們平等互惠的原則。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們是這麼希望。"],["吳委員琪銘：這點我們也應該要朝這方向來努力。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是，好。"],["吳委員琪銘：再來，因為今天是媽祖生日，也是五一勞動節，很多大陸的觀光團宗教交流，很多宗教要過來臺灣，臺灣也很多要過去對岸嘛！秉持這樣，因為我們開放還要經過審核，審核的階段是不是能夠更放鬆？純粹是宗教的交流，這一點我們還是要去把它放寬，不涉及政治，這是我們的前提啦！"],["李副主任委員麗珍：當然是OK，但是因為宗教的交流，第一關是內政部民政司來做整個案件的審核，之後才會給移民署會其他單位的意見，所以我想每一個宗教交流的案件陸委會都是支持的，只要是健康有序的、合法合規的，我們都支持。"],["吳委員琪銘：對啦，我們當然要支持啦！但是我們的申請條件，是不是可以把它再放寬一點？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：申請的條件應該跟過去沒有太大的差異。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為本席這邊有陳情的案件啦！"],["李副主任委員麗珍：因為宗教交流總是要符合宗教交流的幾個要件，我想這個並沒有改變，應該沒有問題！"],["吳委員琪銘：因為不涉及兩岸的政治以及官員，是純粹的宗教交流……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：當然，我們都歡迎。"],["吳委員琪銘：因為我們臺灣的宗教到那邊交流人數都很多嘛！"],["李副主任委員麗珍：非常多。"],["吳委員琪銘：跟他們過來的人數比還是懸殊，這一點是不是我們審核太過緊了？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我想我們會跟移民署還有相關單位一起來……"],["主席：今天署長有來，鐘署長，你要不要回應一下召委，其實本席這邊也接到非常多人民的陳情案，你們似乎在審的時候規矩真的滿多的，好，謝謝。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，署長。"],["鐘署長景琨：委員好，有關審件的部分，因為宗教交流目前還是如同剛剛所講的，這個是要先經內政部宗教司許可……"],["主席：最後還是到你們這裡啊，核不核准是到你們這裡……"],["鐘署長景琨：是，因為我們還是會……"],["主席：我現在要談的是核不核准，因為有非常多的人民也是陳情到我辦公室來。"],["鐘署長景琨：是，不會是移民署一個單位的意見，我們一定是……"],["主席：還有誰的意見？"],["吳委員琪銘：沒啦，我知道主管單位還是陸委會嘛！"],["鐘署長景琨：各單位來聯審。"],["吳委員琪銘：對，因為我真的接了很多的陳情案件，所以我想在審核方面，是不是不涉及政治、不涉及官方，只涉及宗教交流，我們還是要放寬啦！"],["鐘署長景琨：是，好。"],["吳委員琪銘：不然，我們的人數……過來的確實都很少啊！我們過去的一團、一個宗教交流就上千人，真的很嚇人，他們過來的了不起差不多一百多人，這樣還是有懸殊在吧？好不好？"],["鐘署長景琨：好。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝。"],["鐘署長景琨：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝吳召委提這個問題，你的困擾跟我一樣，我們都接到非常多的陳情，不好意思鐘署長，我還是要再請問您一下，我感覺有一個很大的黑手在後面核准誰來、誰不來。"],["鐘署長景琨：沒有啦，我們還是……"],["主席：所以不是您剛剛講得這麼清楚的，涉及到各部會第一次的審查，其實第一次審查都沒有問題，最後到你們那邊去的時候，你們就阻擋……"],["鐘署長景琨：不會啦，不會啦，委員，我們不會刻意阻撓，跟委員報告。"],["主席：怎麼不會呢？吳召委是民進黨的，我是無黨的，很多人就是到我們這邊來陳情耶！"],["鐘署長景琨：不會啦，跟委員報告，我們還是剛剛講的……"],["主席：還是我們有陳情案，私底下找您就應該沒問題？要這樣嗎？"],["鐘署長景琨：不需要什麼特別私底下啦！我們的標準是一致的。"],["主席：我記得很多委員也到我辦公室來，說我是召委為什麼連這樣的事情都不能處理啊？"],["鐘署長景琨：沒有，沒有，不會，不會，跟委員報告，真的我們不會這樣子做。"],["主席：事實上就有啊！"],["鐘署長景琨：我們沒有必要刻意去阻擋或什麼，就如同剛才委員講……"],["主席：你沒有，那還有誰？"],["鐘署長景琨：沒有國安的疑慮的話……"],["主席：你沒有，那還有誰？你們最後有哪幾個單位在審核誰可以進來，誰不能進來？"],["鐘署長景琨：通常就是跟陸委會啦！"],["主席：對嘛，所以還是有嘛，好不好？謝謝你。今天聽到兩位召委的心聲，我們不僅僅代表申請人民的聲音，也代表其他立法委員，很多立法委員都到我辦公室來，說他們不是內政委員會的委員，但是不是請召委來幫忙一下？這個我也要幫他們陳情一下，好不好？謝謝。好，謝謝我們署長。","繼續我們請徐欣瑩委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":506,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","李柏毅","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","傅崐萁","廖先翔","鄭天財Sra 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那不會是移民署一個單位的意見沒有啦 我知道我們這個單位還是陸委會嘛我們各單位來聯審對 因為我講這樣我真的接到很多的陳情案件所以我才想說在審核的方面是不是要不涉及政治不涉及官方只是宗教交流我們還是要放寬啦是 好不好"},{"start":429.775,"end":429.875,"text":"謝謝吳召偉提這個問題"}]}},{"id":"151946","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151946","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b7c96022f02f96112af7b9089f19fa5f77f5010e6307119190665fd020f2568485ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:34:39 - 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得你們的報告是講說在如果對方願意釋出善意的話你們會提早進行調整那現在對方釋出善意你們又覺得這個善意又不夠大那到底要怎麼樣才叫做有善意你們才能夠接受的幅度我覺得在這個部分其實既然是兩岸希望能夠破冰"},{"start":123.087,"end":134.143,"text":"之前一直在說等大陸提出善意等大陸推出善意你沒有選幅度不夠大、不夠善意我覺得這樣子的話我們是跟我們預期有落差那現在跟你們預期有落差之後不能調整嗎"},{"start":135.792,"end":160.275,"text":"所以我們現在正在研議跟評估當中那還有後面講到這個兩岸情勢和緩但是最近除了他放陸客這件事情其實還有其他的兩岸事件還在發生當中所以這個兩岸關係是不是有和緩那這個也要我們做整體評估所以這個部分我們現在就是正在各部會、跨部會的研商當中"},{"start":161.296,"end":179.92,"text":"我再請教一下目前平潭到台灣的船只能載貨那載客在2020年的時候是因為新冠疫情的時候先暫停嗎那現在新冠疫情的影響其實已經結束了我們還要繼續禁止嗎可以載貨但卻不能載人邏輯上說不通嗎何時可以重新開放"},{"start":182.261,"end":205.973,"text":"其實兩岸的航點我們過去就有提到就是看實際的需求有需求的時候然後還有就是看整個兩岸情勢然後來做現在看起來就是有需求嘛因為如果我們把這個平潭的這個海上客運恢復直航之後福建的陸客就能夠來到台灣主船旅遊你知道福建省有多少人嗎福建省有41800萬人"},{"start":208.294,"end":208.314,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":226.195,"end":241.589,"text":"兩邊客運的航點的恢復都是看需求還有看整體情勢其實剛剛提到的福建省它的人口數是4188萬人以2019年來台旅客的觀光支出統計每一個旅客平均是停留"},{"start":241.989,"end":242.249,"text":"主席"},{"start":265.069,"end":266.79,"text":"其實這麼大的一筆這個收入我想對於我們觀光旅遊業者來說一定是很希望能夠"},{"start":285.416,"end":285.456,"text":"主席"},{"start":303.175,"end":304.156,"text":"陸委會主委提到"},{"start":318.046,"end":318.526,"text":"我們的意思是說"},{"start":342.439,"end":361.802,"text":"福建到馬祖當然我們是歡迎而且我們早就講過是只要對方開我們就可以做那其他的對方開了但是你們又說這樣子還不夠善意不夠這個誠意我們剛剛是在跟委員解釋說我們上一次的那個報告講到說對方有善意那我們就說這跟我們的預期有點差距"},{"start":362.242,"end":367.367,"text":"陸方主動提出善意希望陸委會能夠儘快結束這個行動最後一個問題請教一下我們的副署長之前你們在6月1號有一個"},{"start":386.425,"end":404.35,"text":"負入組團的一個禁令那現在既然大陸方面已經釋出善意了那這個善意的話我想對我們台灣觀光旅遊業者大家其實是打了一劑強心針那現在就等觀光署這邊是不是能夠立即取消不要讓我們的觀光旅遊業者跟相關的這個從業人員覺得失望"},{"start":405.858,"end":431.319,"text":"其實現在3月到5月我們臺灣復入的團課是沒有取消我知道我指的是6月1號這個部分可能現在因為之前是說對方這個沒有善意那現在既然對方沒有善意希望我們的這個觀光署這邊要儘速的嚴禮6月1號取消這個禁止復入這個團課的這個禁令我想交通部會再跟各部會這邊再來演繹好謝謝好謝謝許宇甄委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"151945","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151945","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b0ec6ef67a6379ff21e4149ad024bf7a87f5010e6307119195564f04bc932350b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝龍介","委員發言時間":"10:54:02 - 11:01:11","影片長度":"00:07:09","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員傅崐萁等41人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1"},"duration":429,"end_time":"2024-05-01T11:01:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T10:54:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":556,"blocks":[["謝委員龍介：（10時54分）主席，請陳主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["謝委員龍介：陳主委，今天早上黃國昌委員質詢你的時候，我有上來向你表達態度，因為第一，你是行政官員，來到立法院，不管這位委員是國民黨、民眾黨還是民進黨，你基本的態度啊，這是不對的，不管你有多氣憤，你那時候的那種態度本席不能認同。所以主席，我告訴你，今天他要即問即答也好，一問一答也好，甚至我在這裡可以放棄言論免責權，你隨時也可以問我，你是要做民進黨的打手或是NCC這個機關的首長隨便你選，我在這裡同意你用任何的方式來回答本席，跟本席對話，這樣好不好？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好。"],["謝委員龍介：你被提名之後，民進黨一路替你護航說不要有政治性，如果不要有政治性，今天的NCC不會在民間被大家說成它是「髒兮兮」啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我想這是民間的說法啦……"],["謝委員龍介：所以今天對於這個髒兮兮，立法院如果還不把你打掃乾淨，這個立法院就應該要包起來！今天立法院如果再對你「相挺」，這個立法院就要包起來！","2019年本席參加立委補選，我邀請盧秀燕、韓國瑜和侯友宜來到臺南，在屏東，在你的故鄉，天空出現一朵祥雲──鳳凰展翅，你就對報導這個現象的電視台進行裁罰，有沒有？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有啊，有這個案件。"],["謝委員龍介：有這個案件，最後呢？判你們輸了。另外這個案件，賴清德2017年被蔡英文提名擔任行政院長的時候，空中一尾紅色的龍被說是天現祥光，長老教會說這是聖光下凡，我請問你，為什麼報導的這家電視台你們沒有裁罰？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我記得那時候，有人檢舉嗎？沒人去檢舉嘛！這個我們的內容處……"],["謝委員龍介：沒人去檢舉就不用罰了？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們也有去查過，好像沒有相關的資料，是這樣的。"],["謝委員龍介：當時有報導啊，電視台有報導啊……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，但是我們去查……"],["謝委員龍介：這樣不是兩套標準？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有兩套標準，我們就是依照相關的標準……"],["謝委員龍介：再來，一樣是2019年，因為你如果沒有解釋清楚，我會認為你是針對我的啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有啦，委員，不是這樣的，其實我們在處理事情時都是依照相關的標準。"],["謝委員龍介：同樣是補選，麻豆五王廟代天府，農民說把200萬噸的柚子倒入曾文水庫，你注意聽喔，他說完，我人在現場，我說不是200萬噸喔，我馬上制止，是200萬斤，結果你們就用200萬噸這個部分說別人怎樣怎樣；他說倒入曾文水庫，我說不是，而是曾文溪河床，但你們沒有理會，你們一樣是裁罰了。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：剛才……"],["謝委員龍介：你說有人檢舉……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，有人檢舉。"],["謝委員龍介：有人檢舉你就罰，結果你剛好一罰、二罰、三罰、再罰！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，一個案子只能處理一次而已。"],["謝委員龍介：再來，本席被電視臺邀請去用河洛話、玉闕話報導氣象，這樣你也罰我，你算是有夠會罰的，但每一件最後都被平反，這樣你都不會不好意思嗎？你會不好意思嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，我們都是照程序來處理，照程序……"],["謝委員龍介：你說照程序來，現在你敗訴了，你不用道歉嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：你說哪一個案件敗訴？大部分案件我們是贏的，我們沒有……當然有些案件敗訴，但大部分案件都是勝訴。"],["謝委員龍介：我的案子你們輸了啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，這個沒有吧？"],["謝委員龍介：你不要說那些有的沒的，我告訴你，要做打手沒關係……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有打手的問題，是依照程序……"],["謝委員龍介：你如果要做打手，我們就用政治來對決，我同意。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是政治對決啦。"],["謝委員龍介：今天如果莊瑞雄在這裡說話，你一樣用剛才那樣的態度，我也還是一樣會上來飆你，不要這樣嘛……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以我……"],["謝委員龍介：你現在是怎樣？要回去選屏東縣長嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我修正我的態度，剛才主席也指示我要修正我的態度。"],["謝委員龍介：社會在看，自有公論，你今天有一個態度說你要回去學校了，這是真的還是假的？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然是真的。"],["謝委員龍介：不用管這些組織法要修改，組織法的修改可以大家來公論，但是……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：組織法的修改現在是我的責任啊！我的……"],["謝委員龍介：這和你的去留無涉嘛，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，無涉。"],["謝委員龍介：對於一個新的行政團隊，對於賴清德這位新總統上任，你有沒有要展現一個事務官、政務官的風骨？你在5月19日就辭掉NCC的主委，你願意嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我都照規矩來，依照規定任期是到7月31日……"],["謝委員龍介：照規矩來，你就是要抓鰻嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：照規矩來，一個機關的運作……"],["謝委員龍介：我告訴你，你平時指甲都修得很乾淨，我知道啦，很會拍馬屁啦，但是不通啦，以我對賴清德的瞭解，你是沒什麼空間。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我任期也到了。"],["謝委員龍介：表示你的骨氣，我跟你說，你如果在5月19辭職，我讚許你，我在FB給你發一篇文肯定你，不然你現在說得嘴角全都泡都是假的。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這是我負責的態度。"],["謝委員龍介：你要回學校去也是假的。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我是到7月31號，這是我負責的態度。"],["謝委員龍介：說得那麼好聽，我要回學校去，結果呢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我就是要回學校去啊！"],["謝委員龍介：結果呢？你還是照規定來，照規定來，法律如果沒修，你們新的提名如果沒過，你繼續做主委欸！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：所以今天新的委員留著啊，因為我們有四個要走，也不是只有我要走而已。"],["謝委員龍介：沒有，你不能先表示辭職嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我的任期到7月31號，何必辭職呢？就要到了，這也是我負責……責任就是這樣，我那時候說的，承擔到7月31號就是承擔到7月31號，就是這樣。"],["謝委員龍介：所以你還在留戀嘛。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：什麼留戀？只剩一個多月，留戀什麼？"],["謝委員龍介：你不要跟我說得那麼有氣魄啦，這樣聽得懂嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是氣魄，我是說有責任的問題在。"],["謝委員龍介：改天回來當政治人物比這個更有贏面，回去屏東選縣長，說不定我還有機會挺你。"],["主席：謝謝各位，請回。","現在11點到了，我們來處理臨時提案。","處理臨時提案第1案，請宣讀。","臨時提案：","案由：","立法院交通委員會依立法院職權行使法第四十五條及立法院第十一屆第一會期交通委員會第三次全體委員會議決議，成立「『鏡電視申設及後續爭議』調閱專案小組」，係基於立法院監督行政機關之憲法職權，依上開法律與交通委員會決議所作之針對NCC於鏡電視申設案之可能缺失與引發之社會爭議行使調閱權，故其為目的及範圍均屬明確之重大議案，殆無疑義。","NCC通傳法務字第11300142140號函，係基於對憲法權力分立原則、司法院大法官解釋及法律之錯誤及恣意解釋，屬違法且規避立法院對行政機關之監督，屬毀憲亂政之行為，破壞我國憲政體制甚鉅，應予最嚴厲譴責。","爰此，建請司法及法制委員會及交通委員會聯席會議，作成決議：「針對陳耀祥主任委員就監督規管該會之法令惡意錯誤及扭曲解釋，屬違法且規避立法院對行政機關之監督，屬毀憲亂政之行為，破壞我國憲政體制甚鉅，應予最嚴厲譴責，並移送監察院。」","提案人：傅崐萁　　林國成　　翁曉玲　　謝龍介　　洪孟楷　　羅智強　　林思銘"],["主席：請問提案委員有無補充說明？請說。"],["翁委員曉玲：這一次立法院成立鏡電視調閱小組，要求NCC提供相關的調閱文件，調閱小組列舉了非常多很重要的文件檔案，都是跟鏡電視的申設，以及後來它有沒有履行附款所要求的種種文件，這個部分基本上應該都是公開資訊，哪有涉及到什麼業務秘密？實在不瞭解為什麼NCC拒絕提供。而且剛剛聽了黃國昌委員的質詢，才知道原來竟然是NCC主委一個人一手遮天，自己就決定了，他是把NCC完成首長制了嗎？明明就是合議制機關，在面對立法院這麼重要的調閱文件的事項，竟然可以由陳耀祥主委自己一個人將它視為行政事項，就決定了。這種藐視國會的行為，而且錯誤解釋法令、扭曲解釋大法官的解釋，根本就是嚴重的違背憲法權力分立原則，違背相關的法令規定，就他這種藐視國會、不尊重國會的行為，當然應該要給予最嚴厲的譴責。不僅如此，陳主委這樣的一個行為，基本上也已經嚴重違反公務員服務法，我們認為他這樣的態度、這樣的作為應該要移送監察院，請監察院查辦陳耀祥主委這樣的失職行為。在此包含本人在內的相關的委員共同提案，要求給予陳耀祥主委最嚴厲的譴責，並且移送監察院。"],["主席：柯總召。"],["柯委員建銘：剛才仔細聆聽翁委員所謂違反權力分立原則，你的發言錯了吧！事實上陳耀祥是捍衛憲政體制啊！大法官第729號解釋，黃國昌最清楚，不要在那邊笑！黃國昌，你的姿勢永遠就是這樣，這是「著猴」嗎？唉呀！你也要正經一點。我們好好來說。沒關係，這個歷史會看待每一個人的行為。大法官第729號解釋很清楚，當年是因為馬王政爭的時候，我要調閱黃世銘跟馬英九的通聯紀錄，那時候已經偵查結束了喔。聽我說一下啦，翁曉玲在講話，我們都不講話，對不對？"],["羅委員智強：不會啊！我們在講話，你一直講話。"],["主席：我再重申一次我剛剛的說法是，當在發言的時候，請大家不要按麥克風，沒有麥克風的發言，如果我認為有影響議事，我就會阻止，有時候你們底下的講話，我沒有辦法主觀判斷大聲或小聲，所以我先是以麥克風為標準來判斷，但是如果沒有按麥克風，講話還是太大聲，影響到議事，那我會制止，謝謝。"],["柯委員建銘：主席，他們稍微騷擾，我會忍耐啦，我會稍微忍耐。第729號解釋用這樣才解釋出來，那時候的大法官有翁曉玲的先生陳春生，但是那個解釋是解釋偵查終結後可不可以調閱文件，我要調馬英九跟黃世銘的通聯紀錄，因為在立法院我質詢黃世銘說，你一個檢察總長到底跟馬英九通過幾次電話？他說只有通過一次，我說你再想清楚，兩次，我說你死定了，調通聯紀錄，後來他自己跟蘋果日報記者說常常在通電話，那我必須要調他的通聯紀錄，當年大法官解釋就是這樣，但解釋出來，已經偵查結束了，第729號解釋還說不可以，為什麼不可以？這還得了？假如給我調到怎麼辦呢？他用了一個理由說會影響檢察官辦他案的情形，或是會對檢察官辦案有一個不良影響，這是第729號解釋，就是為什麼偵查終結不可以調。但是違反大法官第729號解釋最嚴重的是什麼？第一個破壞的就是黃國昌。黃國昌，你不要忘記，2017年10月18號你在立法院財政委員會提案要調慶富案，那時候慶富案整個文件全部在法院審理中，你竟然要調，是不是你？你不要一副那種很奇怪的笑容。我希望等一下你自己出來打球，自己回答，那個笑容沒有用，我找機會要跟你直球對決了。2017年10月18號是不是你違反第729號在財政委員會調慶富案？後來我們堅決地主張既然第729號解釋出來了，而且是在偵查中，當然不給調嘛！所以透過表決，你和國民黨透過表決是贏了沒有錯，贏一票，表決以後你還到電視台去，違憲你還要到電視台去罵，說民進黨擁護財團，還點名誰反對，這就是黃國昌嘛！靠抹黑來做攻擊，違憲的就是你。今天同樣的，NCC的案子，你們成立調閱委員會，調閱委員會而已喔，不是調查委員會，調資料要調訴訟中的案子，針對鏡電視，股東多少、整個金流等等，請問這可以嗎？當然陳耀祥用第729號解釋來捍衛憲政體制嘛，你們是雙重違憲欸！你成立一個調閱委員會，既然調閱規則通過表決，林國成當召委、召集人，而且要提案的時候三分之一也可以，另外召委認為一個人可以獨斷，是不是這樣？而且要找民間人士來詢問、來盤查，釋字582號出來，你們還沒有這種權力，什麼隔天報紙打開，要叫蘇貞昌來。你當初講什麼話？要叫誰、叫總統府副秘書長來、叫誰來？你們都澈底違憲了。","今天我們在談，翁曉玲你本身是學法的，我們今天的核心事項……我今天在這裡講的核心事項、在審法案時候的核心事項是講整個立法你們的4個版本、國民黨的4個版本，立法的核心事項這是違憲的。我請問黃國昌，你怎麼去護航這種，這個才是核心事項。不是把一個同樣的事情說了3年還在講，一直在講。所以今天我們要講清楚，你陳耀祥本身要捍衛憲政體制，維護權力分立原則，而且是照憲法來的。所以今天國民黨你提這個案子，這個案子你們自己要小心，我們不可能給你贊成的。"],["主席：這樣好了，因為今天發言比較踴躍，我們現在是……我看這樣啦！我們用開放登記發言的方式，讓大家趕快來登記，然後每個委員發言3分鐘。不然這樣子，我們今天是聯席嘛！不然到時候沒完沒了，大家可能要陪著我到晚上11點。","國昌，不好意思，因為他們兩位剛剛先舉手，我們先讓他講。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，就讓他們講啊！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們已經先舉手請求發言……"],["主席：OK，還有要發言的麻煩來登記一下。","因為我剛剛在宣告之前已經有兩位舉手了，那個我不能違反剛剛……因為我剛剛沒有先講這個，那他們兩位發言完畢之後，請其他要發言的委員麻煩先來登記，謝謝各位。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席、在場聯席委員會的各位委員先進。英國的前首相邱吉爾曾經說過，民主國家的國會除了不能讓男人生孩子之外，什麼荒謬的事情都做得出來。我想最近在司法及法制委員會我們再度看到了又一次荒謬的可能決議，在前天已經通過了，可能今天的聯席會又要再來一次。","我看到這個臨時提案，我很認真地去尋找，想看看有沒有我們在場委員黃國昌委員的簽名，顯然黃委員這次並沒有參與這個臨時提案，也不能預判他未來、待會處理這個臨時提案的時候他會採什麼立場。但是我這裡有一個黃委員當年在第9屆立委卸任後，在2020年11月18號他的臉書上說，終於向蔡衍明的中天告別了，NCC的委員頂住了政治壓力、守住了專業審查，決議否決蔡旺旺的中天新聞換照申請。今天我們陳主委在這個備詢台上，針對以國民黨為主的委員的提案，其中諸多荒謬，甚至被大法官宣告為違憲，但它的條文卻繼續拿出來，其實無非大家都看得很清楚，就是臺語說的在「報中天的老鼠冤」，但是這個事情在當年，至少我看到了代表時代力量，或者不知道該怎麼稱呼，代表現在台灣民眾黨的黃國昌委員，他一樣很肯定當年的NCC委員，在當年的組織法之下，經過同樣立法院同意權的程序下所任命的主委、副主委跟委員，頂住了壓力，還有民間專業委員否准了中天的換照申請。","所以當我們看到這個提案內容是一個交通委員會曾經要求進行的調閱專案小組，這個是交通委員的事情，結果拿到我們交通跟司法及法制聯席委員會。為什麼今天的委員會要跟司法及法制委員會聯席？因為要審組織法嘛！要審NCC的組織法，你的臨時提案是拿交通委員會調閱專案小組的決議有沒有落實，請回交通委員會好好地去追究。而且你們的提案文還寫什麼？這些提案的委員，我看除了洪孟楷委員跟林國成委員之外，其他的都是司法及法制委員會的委員……也不是，只有林國成委員是交通委員會的委員。所以真正這個提案要來表示意見的，就是林國成委員嘛！他在交通委員會裡面，對這個有意見可以去提、到交通委員會提，其他司法及法制委員會的委員沒有參與那天交通委員會的專案調閱小組，那你還提這個提議！","更荒謬的是什麼？他說要移送監察院，其實立法院的委員會承院會之命，我們來審查組織法，要作成決議，對決議的內容其實我們個別的意見都予以尊重，對於最後的決議，透過多數決，我們也予以尊重，但是移送監察院這種事情，實在不宜在跟交通委員會專案調閱小組無關的司法及法制聯席的委員會上來作出這樣荒謬的決定。不曉得我們還可以作出除了叫男人生孩子之外，還可以用委員會來移送行政院獨立機關的主任委員。我覺得提出這樣提案的委員，真的要好好地去思考一下，要譴責以合議制多數決定，我尊重，但是移送監察院這些文字，實在是太荒唐、太可笑。還有套用一句、引用一句「太離譜了」！"],["主席：上次譴責我，我也覺得很離譜啊！怎麼會用「譴責」？好啦！好啦！沒事、沒事。","沒關係，我們接下來請吳思瑤委員發言，現在就截止發言登記，謝謝。"],["吳委員思瑤：主席、各位同仁。這個會期在司法及法制委員會很重要的議案叫做國會改革的議案，當中的重中之重就是立法院職權行使法裡頭對於立法院調查權的行使，只是很可惜，國民黨、民眾黨的委員害怕自己的調查權違憲，條文不給在司法及法制委員會裡頭逐條審查，所以今天我也可以藉由這樣一個違憲臨時提案的內容，正好可以闡述立法院過當行使違反憲法的調查權，它到底違反了憲政的哪些原則呢？","首先大家可以去看看幾個大法官的釋字案，第325號、第585號，還有第729號。第585號告訴我們什麼？憲法告訴我們什麼？大法官說，立法院調查權是立院行使憲法職權所必要的輔助性權力，但是它要基於權力分立與制衡的原則，立法院調查權所得調查的對象或事項，並非毫無限制。換言之，大法官告訴我們立法委員不是你想調查誰就可以調查誰那樣子地無法無天。","釋字585號也告訴我們，調查事項必須與立委行使憲法賦予的職權有重大關聯。立委的職權是什麼？規範在憲法第六十三條，就是我們的法律案、預算案，乃至於條約案、媾和案、戒嚴案等等。我想問一下，成立了鏡電視這個調閱小組的委員會跟立法委員行使的法律案有什麼關係？預算案有什麼關係？重大關聯者在哪裡？那提案委員要講清楚啊！","我們來看釋字第729號的大法官又告訴我們什麼，很清楚地講「對於偵查中之案件，立法院自不得向其調閱相關卷證」，已經講了非常多次，算是N次了。也就是偵查不公開，調閱的案件如果是檢調偵辦當中的案件就不得調閱，所以你們講不聽嗎？第729號釋字案再一次說，立法院僅能在制度、預算、法律對檢察機關進行通案監督。記得，是「通案監督」，並無介入個案調閱偵查卷證之餘地，所以鏡電視這個案子是通案嗎？不！它是已經被委員們設定要挾怨報復的一個個案、被委員設定是要私設刑堂的一個調閱小組。","最後，我要附和司法及法制委員會鍾佳濱召委剛剛的說法，鏡電視的調閱小組是在交通委員會裡面設置的，對於這個調閱小組行使的權限，居然要到司法及法制委員會裡面找我們背書，至少本席吳思瑤我不願意背書，我也不可能為這樣離譜的提案背書。主席，您要說明，今天在司法及法制委員會提一個與司法及法制委員會過去審議的議案都沒有關聯的案子，這個調閱小組不是司法委員會成立的，在這裡通過這樣的臨時提案是牛頭不對馬嘴，應該要到正確的場域、正確的委員會去提案，司法及法制委員會為什麼要在這裡跟你們陪葬、為你們背書？我拒絕！主席請說明，好嗎？這一點主席應當說明，這是交通委員會成立的調閱小組，為什麼要在司法及法制委員會通過這樣一個議案，大有問題，真的大有問題！立法院不要私設刑堂，不要挾怨報復啊！"],["主席：今天是聯席會議，我尊重聯席會議各位委員的提案。"],["吳委員思瑤：你這樣說明夠嗎？不太夠耶！"],["主席：我已經說完了，至於夠不夠，絕對不是任何一個人可以對我的發言評價，我認為夠了就是夠了，我為我自己的發言負責。在主持會議的時候，本來就是主席決定，我大不大，你認為我很大，我就很大，我沒有關係啊！","接下來請黃健豪委員發言。"],["黃委員健豪：謝謝主席。針對這個臨時提案，剛剛有些委員認為這是交通委員會的提案，今天怎麼可以拿來司法及法制委員會提案，我要提醒一下，今天的會議叫做司法及法制、交通委員會聯席，既然要看NCC、要討論NCC的相關議題，相關的委員都有權利提案，如果委員不開心、不滿意這樣的提案，你們也可以提其他的臨時提案，做雙重的表述，我們也都會尊重大家的提案，並不是你不開心，你覺得不適合，我們就不能提案，立法院職權行使法裡面並沒有這一條規定。","NCC到底有沒有義務提供相關的審查標準給立法院審查，從立法監督行政的角度來看，它應該有義務提供立法院來審查，在審查相關條文、審核媒體申設的時候是依據什麼樣的法令，有沒有受到外部勢力的介入，有沒有什麼其他的考量？當初在交通委員會提出調閱小組，我們希望能夠調閱相關的行政文件，只是調閱行政文件，並不是要調閱正在審判中或是訴訟中的司法個案。我們要看的是NCC在審核媒體的標準是一致的標準，還是針對個案而有不同的標準，我們今天要審查、監督的是NCC在行政權上的行使，不是NCC與任何個人之間的司法案件，我們不會去關說司法，我們也不想要介入司法。但是立法委員的職責是要瞭解NCC這個行政部門，即便它是獨立機關，但它同時也是行政部門，行政部門受立法部門監督是天經地義。如果今天立法委員沒有辦法瞭解、理解NCC到底是用什麼樣的標準去做行政決策的話，不就表示我們的立法權、監督權完全被所謂的獨立機關所藐視嗎？","雖然主委即將要卸任，但是就像你剛剛提到的，在你任內這段時間所有的業務、工作還是要由您一肩扛起，所以我們才希望這些業務過去是怎麼審查的，應該要提供給立法院立法委員瞭解你的標準到底在哪裡，我們今天要談的是一個一致的標準，不是個案。今天特別提出這個臨時提案就是要譴責，我們希望把這個臨時提案留在立法院的紀錄裡面，讓下一位NCC主委，不管你有沒有留任，當然應該是不會留任了，組織法通過的話，你也不會留任了，但不管怎麼樣，我們把這個紀錄留在立法院，讓後續的主委能夠參考，謝謝。"],["主席：下一位請翁曉玲委員發言。"],["翁委員曉玲：我在這裡要提醒大家NCC到底是被誰糟蹋的？NCC成立的時候，那個時候第一版NCC組織法，原本是參考西方國家如德國、法國、美國等先進的民主法治國家，成立NCC遴選委員會，再依照政黨比例推薦，並且遴選相關委員。可是在當時被時任行政院長謝長廷提起釋憲，再被由陳水扁所提名的那群大法官們共同宣告違憲，之後再修法才成為現在由行政院院長提名全數NCC委員的作法。我必須說，請民進黨的委員們多讀點書，立法院立法委員的重要職責就是要把自己準備好，要有充實的法律素養，本席所提的相關法案是具有法律的高度，參考西方先進國家怎麼運作獨立機關。不是像現在這樣的情況，獨立機關NCC已經成為高度政治化的機關，尤其是在民進黨政府執政期間內，將NCC從原來應該保持專業、客觀、獨立的機關推向高度的政治化。","NCC組成的委員本來必須要反映社會上多元的意見，可是我們看到從民進黨政府2016年執政以來，所提名的NCC委員組成的委員會，做出太多具有高度爭議的案子，備受社會大眾批評，在這樣的情況之下，NCC還能維持當初所設置的精神嗎？能夠排除來自於上級機關的指揮監督嗎？事實上，它不僅沒有排除上級機關的指揮監督，還順從上級機關的旨意，也難怪大家會認為NCC現在已經是一個服從民進黨黨意的機關，根本沒有辦法反映民意。今天我們為什麼要提出這樣的臨時提案，主要也是因為看到陳主委基本上完全不尊重立法院的職權，我們要求調閱的相關文件，講難聽一點，如果這些資料是在NCC網站上面就可以看到的，會議紀錄不可以給嗎？當時這些鏡電視申請的相關文書有什麼機密？為什麼不能夠提供？基本上，他們的種種表現完全藐視立法委員的職權，所以我必須說，我們今天提出這個提案完全就是要對付像陳耀祥主委這樣不尊重立法院職權、藐視國會的政府官員，移送監察院只是剛剛好而已。"],["主席：下一位請羅智強委員發言。"],["羅委員智強：斯斯有兩種，民進黨的議事規則也有兩種，剛剛吳思瑤委員說今天為什麼司法及法制委員會竟然可以提案譴責和移送陳耀祥，這應該是交通委員會的事，今天是司法跟交通的聯席委員會，當然可以！這邊是綜合司法跟交通委員會委員的意見啊！這個也可以拿來說嘴？","我要跟各位講，基本上民進黨的議事規則就是兩種，甚至好多種，我從昨天那個笑話開始講起，昨天也是一個天大的笑話，這邊也要問問大家，吳秉叡到底是蔣幹，還是黃蓋？第一次吳秉叡來投票的時候，在年金案上面跑來支持國民黨，我非常感謝他，他可能是三國時期孫權陣營的黃蓋，到民進黨去臥底；然後在昨天，欸，吳秉叡又不見了，更神奇的是明明人不在議場，他自己都說他不在喔！結果竟然很神奇的有人代投，這個不是重點，這重點是什麼？重點是代投這件事情，創始人就是我們的千手觀音吳思瑤委員啊！以前千手觀音吳思瑤委員的時候，他也不去管他的代投啊！盧縣一發生代投爭議，他又出來說這是偽造文書，好重的罪啊！沒有關係，新國會偽造文書啦，那請問吳秉叡昨天的狀況，怎麼又不是偽造文書了呢？是不是偽造文書？我就要講從頭到尾，我羅智強可沒主張是偽造文書，光偽造文書這件事情，民進黨的標準就一大堆嘛！你如果要今天說張三是偽造文書，那為什麼到李四就不是呢？","就像是今天我們來看看，我們今天希望把陳耀祥做譴責案，我們譴責案就違反議事規則，我們譴責案就沒有正當性，結果吳宗憲召委在主持會議，對不對？開放討論6個小時，比起民進黨以前5分鐘停止討論，6個小時然後有40次散會動議，民進黨提出的也都讓大家一一表決，結果還是得到兩次譴責案，又譴責吳宗憲啊！奇怪了，你們可以譴責吳宗憲，我們不能譴責陳耀祥？講到移送監察院，這更好笑，我們連李俊俋秘書長、監察院秘書長坐在底下都承認，對不對？當年他去質詢監察院的時候，還喊說要彈劾王建煊，彈劾都可以，移送陳耀祥就不可以，斯斯有兩種啦！民進黨議事規則百百種，搞得我們真的很亂啦！"],["主席：謝謝。下一位我們請莊瑞雄委員。"],["莊委員瑞雄：謝謝主席，在場聯席會的各位偉大政治家，我們立法院今天的聯席真的是瘋人院，有時候要針對議案來發言，準備一下啦！不要什麼都胡亂牽拖，就像我們剛剛偉大的國民黨總召傅崐萁委員，他也在內政委員會講：立法院任何一個決議不能違背憲法的規定。是啊！是如此啊！今天其實最糟糕的就是誰呢？還是一樣，號稱幹過檢察官二十幾年了，我們的吳宗憲召委，這個實在是，提這種案要譴責是要先譴責你，為什麼你知道嗎？今天我看傅崐萁委員還有林國成委員這幾位連署的一個臨時提案裡面，你去提到的是NCC通傳法務字第11300142140號函，召委不是這樣子嗎？你是幹過什麼檢察官！如果這個案子是我在審的話，我第一個一定把這個函調過來，聯席會要審查，讓大家聞香一下，談論這個案子到底是在表決什麼，這樣才是對的！難道不是這樣說嗎？召委，不是這樣子嗎？你總是要提供一下嘛！你要議決，這個臨時提案在講什麼，你們只是說等一下要表決，比人多、比人少，我不跟吳思瑤委員跟你談什麼第585號解釋啦！或者是在跟你談到大法官釋字這幾號的解釋裡面，我就只問你說我們今天這個提案到底是針對什麼而來嗎？這個地方重點就是在講什麼而已，重點是在講說我們國會裡面的一個監督事項，到底那個範圍會有多大，就這樣子而已，整個獨立機關的一個監理，或者說整個涉及到民間整個公司的治理事項。我們這次是新選出來的委員，我們很大，我管你公司怎麼治理，老子就叫作立法委員，要你交出來，你就交出來，哪有什麼叫公司治理，通通都交，不是這樣說嗎？","我反而會覺得NCC國家通訊傳播委員會發的這個函裡面，涉及到各個政黨對整個立法院職權行使法的範圍到什麼地方，職權範圍的行使是可以討論，怎麼會因為NCC的一個函，讓立法委員或個別政黨認為不符合我的意見，我就跟你說我要把你譴責、要把你移送監察院，說你是曲解法令，我也不認為這叫曲解法令啊！我到現在來看的話，以國民黨現在來看的話，你們現在心目中哪有什麼大法官會議解釋，沒有欸！你們認為立法委員是最大欸！立法委員大不大？好大，是真的，我也覺得很大，可是要大到什麼地步？是不是可以大到無法無天？可以大到因為人數多數，我管你什麼叫作憲政機關，這也不對吧！所以我要求主席，我剛才本來是要用會議詢問的方式多說幾分鐘，但是我是很守法的。所以我要跟你說的是，我們這樣不對啦！你涉及到聯席的部分，至少內文的部分，因為剛剛翁曉玲委員在講的部分，他也沒有把這個函拿出來給大家看一下，涉及到的爭議範圍是哪一部分嘛，好不好？所以召委你也應該將這個給大家看一下……"],["翁委員曉玲：事先就要看好了。"],["莊委員瑞雄：不是、不是、不是，我不會像你們這樣亂牽拖，立法委員的職權範圍到什麼地步我都尊重，在野黨的職權我也尊重，但問題是在一個譴責案裡面不是這樣漫天要價，慎重啦！慎重啦！就這樣子而已啦！"],["主席：我這邊先宣告，第一個，臨時提案是各位委員的權力，跟主席有什麼關係？莊委員，您是非常資深的委員，我是菜鳥、我是菜鳥、我是菜鳥……"],["莊委員瑞雄：你要處理本來就要闡明嘛……"],["主席：所以連我都懂，提案是各位委員的權力，不是主席有權阻止……"],["莊委員瑞雄：是，當然是啊！這個……"],["主席：我想連我這個菜鳥都懂，各位這麼資深的學長們一定懂。"],["柯委員建銘：不要再吵了啦。"],["主席：我們今天主席該做的，就是各位委員所提出來的提案，我們就依照程序把它處理完畢，如果大家沒有共識，就現場表決，我想這是處理議事的方式，其他就不用再說。"],["莊委員瑞雄：那會議詢問呢？照你這樣說，我也要跟你那個……"],["羅委員智強：主席，開始了啦！請黃國昌。"],["主席：第二件事情，有關NCC這一號函，我想各位自己有興趣的，上網查馬上可以查得到，如果有興趣想要閱讀的話。","下一位我們請黃國昌委員。"],["黃委員國昌：謝謝主席。實在令人非常難以想像在這個地方討論有關於這個臨時提案的時候，民主進步黨總召柯建銘先生發言的時候，不是針對議案，是在進行人身的攻擊跟謾罵，在立法院公報裡面，我坐在下面，指責我，連我坐在下面微笑，連「著猴」這兩個字都說得出來，這真的是讓臺灣社會大眾知道民主進步黨黨團總召的水準。","第二件事情，釋字第729號，釋字第729號是柯建銘自己涉及了不法的司法關說，竟然還在調閱委員會當中去調取偵查當中的案卷，被大法官宣告違憲，這麼丟臉的事情啊！他在國會殿堂裡面再度提起，我只能用「恬不知恥」四個字來加以形容，他要拿慶富獵雷艦弊案的調閱小組來相比，更是貽笑大方。請問慶富獵雷艦弊案的調閱小組，有調閱偵查中的卷證嗎？沒有，因為我全部都看過。慶富獵雷艦弊案的調閱小組有像柯建銘的那個調閱小組，被大法官宣告去調閱偵查當中的卷證嗎？也沒有。結果柯建銘今天非常可笑，舉了一個自己是當事人、自己被宣告違憲的議案，然後拿另外一個正當行使國會權力沒有被宣告的調閱小組來做比擬啊！真的是令人感覺到非常非常的遺憾。","至於陳耀祥該不該被譴責、該不該被移送監察院，我提供三項事實讓各位來予以參考，第一個，今天他在備詢的時候承認了，回給調閱小組的公文是他自己決定的，哇！讓人瞠目結舌啊！原來我們的NCC已經變成陳耀祥制啦！NCC是合議制都忘記啦！這麼重要的事情，抗拒立法院的調閱，他說他一個人決定就可以啊！果然是充滿了綠色價值的NCC啊！第二件事情，作為法律人，我今天聽陳耀祥在那邊解釋說任期到了之後可以繼續延到新的委員出來，他們是參仿什麼？他們是參仿公平交易委員會組織法，當我聽到他這樣發言的時候，我必須要說，陳耀祥，你忝為法律人啊！為什麼這樣講？因為這個條文的規定，當初2007年到2008年，通保法的條文規定，我跟大家複習一下，是透過當時的密室協商喬出來的，所以我們找不到立法理由，陳耀祥所援引的公平交易委員會組織法是什麼時候訂定的？是2011年，怎麼會2007年訂定的法案，是穿越時空到了未來，去參酌2011年的法案呢？有這麼可笑的事嗎？NCC主委，你連基本上的法律整個歷程都搞不清楚。第三項是最嚴重的事，我今天問他，涉及到洩密的事情陳建平有沒有跟你們講過，我不知道，他在上面的答案模稜兩可，不敢正面回應，我直接跟大家報告，2022年10月21號陳建平回復NCC的函裡面，他簽名蓋章，負責任地講那些簡訊都是真的，全部都是裴偉傳給他的。我剛剛這邊質詢完了以後，我實事求是，馬上跟當事人求證有沒有這件事，陳建平說有啊！他早就跟NCC講啦！不辦嘛！遮掩嘛！這就是為什麼立法院要成立調閱小組，因為NCC混太久了，謝謝。"],["柯委員建銘：權宜問題、權宜問題，我權宜問題一下總可以吧！"],["羅委員智強：心海羅盤再次現身。"],["柯委員建銘：加減聽啦！我剛剛很仔細聆聽黃國昌委員啦！其實我會講「著猴」那句話，假如對你有不敬的意思，我可以收回，但是為什麼我要講這個呢？因為昨天我在看電視的時候，他拿著蔥在那裡甩啊甩，連柯文哲你也在貶抑他，那個表情跟他在立法院的表情都很一樣，我是覺得這個人很奇怪，很多政治上重要的事情，在講重要事情的時候要嚴肅地講，不是翹著腳……"],["羅委員智強：主席，心海羅盤，我們建議……"],["柯委員建銘：等一下，我講話……"],["羅委員智強：建議一個心海羅盤時間。"],["柯委員建銘：OK！"],["主席：總召，繼續、繼續，不要受干擾，繼續。"],["柯委員建銘：我現在講的是，昨天電視上全國人民在看待，黃國昌這種表情很奇怪，拿一個蔥自己在這樣甩，連柯文哲你也貶抑他、消遣他，我就覺得奇怪了，這個政黨到底紀律何在？這個政黨看起來只是黃國昌的黨吧！其他的7位委員從來沒有意見過，柯文哲的想法，我相信他的心情一定很複雜。","回到本題好了，所謂729釋字，當年是因為我要調通聯，但是大法官馬上解釋出來，就是陳春生，翁曉玲你的老公也在那裡嘛！偵查結束都不可以調，現在連在法院中的你也可以調，我不相信。當年729釋字第一個破壞的就是黃國昌嘛！慶富案仍在法院中啊！所以你搞一個調閱委員會根本無疾而終嘛！你調到什麼東西？你自取其辱而已，包括陳耀祥現在不給資料就不給資料，也是一樣啊！在訴訟狀態怎麼拿啊！黃國昌你要講清楚啊！什麼當年我關說，當年我關說什麼？當年很重要的是馬王政爭嘛！就是馬英九破壞憲政體制，用特務治國，透過黃世銘監聽國會，這還得了，然後操作政治，再發起馬王政爭，那時候特偵組完全違法亂紀。","在法院中，我去告馬英九，可是那時候地檢署檢察長楊治宇回一封信給我，就說總統不受刑事訴究，等卸任以後再另行偵辦，結果卸任以後，馬英九上法院啦！黃世銘馬上違反通保法、個資法，違反三個法，洩密，判有罪，黃世銘在法院上講什麼，他有超法規的阻卻違法事由，承認他犯罪，所以黃世銘下臺。黃國昌，你假如要做國民黨的打手，你也要把很多歷史、法律弄清楚。","今天我要詰問的就是，今天我們正在審查法案，國民黨提了4個法案，完全衝撞憲法，用三權憲法，用政黨比例制，這種核心價值你怎麼捍衛，你來講嘛！今天要譴責的是什麼？今天要譴責的是國民黨，那個提案寫錯了，主席，那個提案寫錯了，請國民黨回去更改，好不好？"],["羅委員智強：好棒！"],["柯委員建銘：要譴責國民黨，陳耀祥捍衛憲政體制啊！"],["翁委員曉玲：趕快表決了啦！"],["主席：謝謝柯總召。","我這邊跟大家報告一件事情，權宜問題是自己權益受損的時候，不是再扯到馬英九去啦！"],["柯委員建銘：我是權宜問題……"],["吳委員思瑤：黃國昌剛剛講的啊！"],["柯委員建銘：他罵我啊！"],["主席：對，所以你講黃國昌的部分我沒意見……"],["吳委員思瑤：他講人家耶！"],["主席：所以你講黃國昌的部分我沒意見，我們不要再扯到馬英九，馬英九不在這裡啊！"],["柯委員建銘：我講個權宜問題怎麼樣啦！"],["主席：現在登記發言者都已經發言完畢，沒有共識的話，臨時提案的部分我們現在就進行表決。現在進行表決，我們採用舉手表決的方式，表決前，我們先清點在場出席的人數。","（清點人數）"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","林國成","莊瑞雄","柯建銘","沈發惠","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","黃健豪","李昆澤","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","游顥","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","林沛祥","陳雪生"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一) 委員傅崐萁等33 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員傅崐萁等41 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 委員洪孟楷等25 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、 ( 四 ) 委員翁曉玲等 18 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文英早局長 這個剛剛前面有幾位委員其實都有問到了這個馬祖的海嵐的問題我就直接的切入到這個部分的重點"},{"start":29.396,"end":52.95,"text":"這個2023年的2月的時候這個護衛備援的兩條馬祖的海欄在很短的時間內就遭到中國漁船的破壞那所以馬祖對外的通訊都中斷所以剛才有剛才那個畫面所有人都擠到南竿的中華電信前面那熬熬待補希望能夠用到網路對不起我換一個喂這樣可以嗎可以聽得到"},{"start":54.212,"end":72.788,"text":"那這樣覺得是意外事件還是非意外事件?對,這個案例我們一直有在觀察。過去幾年大概台馬海嵐的斷線已經斷了二十幾次了。那非常不尋常。但是我們在進行各種的判斷不能夠依照我們自己主觀的"},{"start":74.309,"end":93.706,"text":"市長,這個……必須要判斷的,我簡單說明一下,因為它的海嵐的斷裂一般有判斷到有中國的漁船在周邊的水域作業,這是第一個部分。第二個,它的作業的航機我們會分析,它的作業航機是正常的漁船作業航機,還是它刻意的只是要去破壞海嵐的航機,這也都要做分析。"},{"start":94.446,"end":121.923,"text":"我們看到這個華府的智庫那其實是認為這只是並不是巧合甚至他是採取灰色地帶侵略的手段來切斷對台的網絡 局長同意嗎不能排除這樣的可能性那特別在較兩岸比較緊張的過程當中用這種切斷台灣對外海欄的方式來進行灰色地帶的操作可能性是存在的我們看到馬祖海欄有幾個特殊的地方第一個是他相對於國際上面"},{"start":123.304,"end":148.379,"text":"這國際的海欄在巴士海峽它的深度其實是2000到5000馬祖海欄大概只有30公尺到100公尺那它的位置當然也是現在在中國灰色地帶侵略的第一線那人為變因確實我們現在看到這是我們最憂心的地方中國的民用的船隻在這個灰色地帶來進犯那包括是查扣的抽砂船從2019年95艘開始到2020年2021年都超過300艘"},{"start":153.154,"end":155.092,"text":"看起來數字是非常非常高的"},{"start":155.765,"end":183.774,"text":"那我們這段時間當然我知道我們一直以來行政部門會用說我們有兩個法一個是電信管理法一個是關鍵基礎設施來保護我們這相關的海港措施那我去年其實也對陳建仁院長其實提出了質詢所以後來電信管理法有修了我們把原本在舊的時候他只有寫到登陸站那只有這個國際的登陸站能夠被認定變成新的法變成是不分國內外的登陸站跟纜線其實都有修訂這是我們做的事情"},{"start":184.494,"end":206.434,"text":"但我認為就電信法的部分確實有補上了一些但我們接下來看的事情是關於CIA的部分這個這樣這是我們CIA的定義這個CIA的定義裡面其實寫得很清楚因人為破壞或自然災害受損進而影響政府或社會功能運作及造成環境改變或其他阻使國家安全或利益遭受損害之餘者"},{"start":207.731,"end":225.222,"text":"所以局長你覺得馬祖海嵐算不算CI當然當然是重要的一個CI設施之一是嗎因為就海嵐來講我們現在國際海嵐大概有14條國內外離島的海嵐加起來有10條那這涉及到我們對外的一個聯通那數位部怎麼看"},{"start":228.063,"end":244.471,"text":"蘇衛部的歸納有沒有把海蘭……以蘇衛部我剛同仁跟我提醒的是蘇衛部主要是以國際海蘭為主要的關切的重點就我理解蘇衛部並不贊成把馬祖海蘭放入CI裡面"},{"start":249.693,"end":265.678,"text":"對,我剛已經提過了,就國家安全的角度來講,我們認為國際的海嵐跟國內相關外離島的海嵐都非常的重要。那數位部這樣的認定,請問國安局或國土辦,一樣國土辦,你們對數位部這樣子認定的方法,這樣限縮的方法,你們的態度是什麼?"},{"start":268.592,"end":288.622,"text":"委員好當然這個數位部是他負責相關數位海欄的這樣的一個主責單位我們會尊重他但是我要跟委員報告就是委員其實在這剛剛有提到修法的部分修法的部分有把上岸的這個海欄...國土辦的態度是尊重數位部嗎?按照剛剛蔡局長的講法"},{"start":290.983,"end":309.009,"text":"剛剛他是覺得馬祖海欄當然應該列入到CIA裡面喔是 我跟委員報告因為我說尊重但是因為現在實體上已經把他納進去了為什麼實體上的意思是什麼就是剛剛您有提到那個修法的部分已經把進到海欄站的纜線也納入防護的範圍"},{"start":309.969,"end":310.409,"text":"林主任,我們都知道"},{"start":336.368,"end":363.337,"text":"我現在調了相關的演習的記錄上一次演習是在2021年而且是桌上的演習請問我們在CIA的演習是桌上演習嗎他可以透過桌推兵推跟實兵但是我想這部分我們會再進一步跟他做上一次的演習是2021年我們光看2022年2023年就發生了這麼多在馬祖海嵐被受到侵害的事件"},{"start":364.694,"end":386.777,"text":"請問今年我們有要針對馬祖海蘭來做演習嗎?照理來說如果被列入CIA的話應該是每年都要演習每年都要巡檢甚至國土辦可以有事前的納管事後巡檢的這樣的權責但到底為什麼我們不願意把它列入CIA?我跟委員報告我們今年的巡檢的標的有含"},{"start":388.118,"end":399.653,"text":"其實您剛提到的那個機房,我們會去做巡檢。那就,那個馬,我現在講的是馬祖海蘭啊。是,它因為它的上岸點的一個點在那個地方。是,但是那只是上岸點啊。是。"},{"start":400.472,"end":417.726,"text":"阿至於相關的一些防護的作為我們也有多做一些掌握所以剛剛跟委員主任我到目前為止還聽不出明明蔡局長也覺得他應該列入C.I你覺得他不該列入C.I嗎用你的專業判斷用你的專業判斷你覺得馬祖海蘭該不該列入C.I用你的專業判斷再跟他們做一個討論跟確認那個"},{"start":428.271,"end":438.478,"text":"不管是局長或者是主任我必須說我非常非常疑惑我當然找過數位部來討論過幾次但我不懂為什麼不願意把馬祖海蘭列入CIA"},{"start":440.27,"end":465.776,"text":"但他現在說我們用微波等等的但我們都很清楚知道其實微波沒有辦法完全替代掉實質的海欄光纖海欄的功能尤其他的頻寬是非常非常不足的甚至當如果有特定的我們在外在的威脅來的時候我們都知道可能是軍用政府用為先對不對即便是微波我們現在查到的數據這個微波他的這個"},{"start":469.258,"end":480.171,"text":"他大概是16Gbps微波的部分我們現在到2023年年底是擴充到10.6Gbps可是我們的海欄其實是有100T"},{"start":486.325,"end":513.1,"text":"我們確定威脅的頻寬可以讓如果我們真正發生什麼被封鎖被包圍出現混亂的時候除了政府用跟軍用夠以外民用也夠嗎我們確定嗎這件事情林主任或者是局長我們確定嗎我跟委員報告10GB確定夠嗎會不會民用是不夠的會不會有很多在民間的訊息產生的混亂"},{"start":514.432,"end":542.595,"text":"會不會有這些問題我跟委員報告在目前以以往的使用情形來看是可以到足額的覆蓋但是軍用跟民用是優先的那民用夠嗎就是整體的計算但是我們還是要持續的備援再備援那另外剛有提到就臺馬海蘭的部分是不是要納進去西埃這一塊我會再跟數位部做一個溝通跟確認我知道數位部一直抗拒這件事情"},{"start":543.135,"end":563.158,"text":"但到現在為止我得不到一個明確合理的理由為什麼馬祖海蘭可以不列入CIA如果你們知道也請告訴我我們可以理性討論但到目前為止我得不到一個合理的回答明明是一個會讓已經這麼常被破壞"},{"start":564.531,"end":565.471,"text":"委員我溝通了解結果一定要跟委員出報告"},{"start":593.459,"end":607.192,"text":"這個局長跟國防我希望第一個我們應該要盡力尤其是像馬祖海蘭這樣子的我認為他就是關鍵基礎設施就是CI了他命運帶來的風險就是很大的"},{"start":608.377,"end":629.791,"text":"這個通訊的設施我們也知道通訊其實是應該列入到CIA裡面大的範疇裡面是有的但今天因為數位部他有一個他的偏執我不知道為什麼但他就是不願意我覺得這讓我們在相關的防護的密度都受到很大的影響這是事實證明的我拿出數據了上一次的演練是2021年"},{"start":632.728,"end":648.727,"text":"是2021年而且還是桌上的推演我們希望這個相關的演練都要跟地方政府合作有跟地方政府合作嗎甚至我們還都要求這些相關的演練還要及時的向民眾發出告警阿"},{"start":650.063,"end":675.831,"text":"我們這種桌上的演練的方式可以符合我們在演練上面的規範嗎?恐怕都差很大一段距離蔡局長你之前你剛剛在幾分鐘前回答我你一度也以為馬祖海蘭有列入CI對不對?你剛才的回答也這樣說我們尊重委員的關切那接下來在行政院的政策匯報裡面我們國安局來提供類似的意見來轉達委員的關切所以最後一張我要說剛剛最後一張我們要要求國土辦跟這個"},{"start":677.972,"end":678.452,"text":"我們來反映 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151943","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151943","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466ba45307053e7d34301e4149ad024bf7a87f5010e6307119194f3b1f2e421618f85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"10:44:44 - 10:53:53","影片長度":"00:09:09","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員傅崐萁等41人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1"},"duration":549,"end_time":"2024-05-01T10:53:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T10:44:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":533,"blocks":[["吳委員思瑤：（10時44分）謝謝主席，有請主委。"],["主席：請主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["吳委員思瑤：曾幾何時NCC成為一個如此高度政治化的單位，我要在這裡說，NCC就應當回歸專業，NCC就要去政治化，你可以不喜歡陳耀祥，你可以不欣賞陳耀祥，但NCC作為一個國家獨立運作的獨立機關，就法論法；國會議員的責任是讓NCC的組織法建立一個不論誰執政都能夠穩健運作的制度，您同意嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：同意。"],["吳委員思瑤：我為什麼要說其實NCC不應當這麼政治化的，因為NCC掌理每年有4萬到6萬件的民生相關業務，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是的。"],["吳委員思瑤：我也是經過爬梳才知道，原來NCC關切的不是這些國會議員每天在那邊撒狗血、每天在那邊造謠抹黑，NCC關乎所有國人的日常生活，您剛說的手機，您剛說的電信網路基地臺的審驗跟發照、消防警用電臺的審驗發照，對不對？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒錯。"],["吳委員思瑤：還有建築物電信設備的審查到所有國內外電信設備的驗證等等。如果NCC因為政治的心魔被癱瘓了，它被修法惡搞成一個沒有辦法穩健運作的獨立機關，每一天每一個臺灣人民，不論你在什麼場域，不論你是幾歲、你的性別、你的生活也被癱瘓，從你用的手機、你看的電視、你聽的廣播、你住的建築物會不會被斷網、被斷訊？","所以請讓NCC回到專業，這是我今天很重要的一個原則，只是非常的遺憾啦！司法及法制委員會從新國會上任以來有三個特色，第一個，就是選擇性跟針對性的修法或立法；第二個，就是只進行政治性的修法跟立法；第三個，就是一再的端出違反憲法的立法或修法。很可惜，這三個惡法的樣態NCC組織法集大成了，所以非常的難為，但是我們透過討論的過程，把事實呈現在國人面前。","我為了做這個質詢，很努力去研讀很多的學術論文，我手上的是2006年的一個學術論文「我國獨立行政委員會組織建制與相關憲政問題之研究」，我才瞭解臺灣的行政院組織法也好，或者是我們行政機關組織型態的樣態組成，獨立機關最早是來自於美國所發展的獨立機關運作機制。其實早在2002年總統府的政府改造委員會裡頭開始被討論跟倡議，然後被上路，所以早在2002年的時候，很清楚地對於獨立機關的建置理念跟原則，都清楚地告訴我們，一些需要專業化、去政治化，在決策過程要基於公共利益之實現的這些行政機關，就要比一般的行政機關更客觀、更中立，保持更高的專業能力，也更應當與政治保持距離。這樣子的論述，是我們獨立機關建置的理念，從以前到現在、不論是誰執政，是不是？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是的，這本來就是我們獨立機關設置所應該的，其實不是只有NCC，包括中選會、公平會都一樣。"],["吳委員思瑤：時間有限，違憲的修法要再一次嗎？18年前提案的是國民黨跟親民黨，要設置提名審查委員會，依政黨比例原則，而且要審查會通過同意的名單才可以提名喔！但行政院2006年聲請釋憲；2006年的7月21號被宣告違憲；並且2008年違憲的法律就要重行檢視、要刪除了。違憲的修法，立法院還要重蹈覆轍一次嗎？歷史的教訓還不夠嗎？","我們來看看這一次的修法多離譜，傅崐萁委員一個人提兩案，可能其中一案是傅崐萁提案，另外一案是傅萁崐提案，前後矛盾，自打嘴巴。我舉例，任期的部分，他第一個提案說可以連任一次，下一個提案說沒有限制，可以繼續連任，相互矛盾，自打嘴巴，就傅崐萁跟傅萁崐兩個委員的提案。當然審查會的設置，政黨比例的推薦，這都是違憲的；還有，他寫到相同黨籍者不可超過3位，這是傅崐萁的提案，可是傅萁崐的提案是寫，黨籍應符立法院政黨比例，這不就是前後錯置產生矛盾跟扞格嗎？當然他也提到離職後3年不得擔任公職或代表政黨參選，這就牴觸了憲法的參政權，以上這是傅崐萁跟傅萁崐的一人兩案。","洪孟楷委員的提案也很離譜，我很快的報告並呈現在國人面前，政黨比例、委員會都違憲，還有一個人事同意權未過，原任委員任期即應終止，不得延任；委員總額未達第四條關於人數之規定，在補足前不得將議案提付表決。換言之，就是癱瘓、就是空轉，就是讓我們剛剛所提每年4到6萬件的民生相關業務，就放任臺灣的人民被斷訊、被斷網、沒有辦法如常生活，洪孟楷的案子很離譜。","下一個翁曉玲委員的提案就更離譜了，他說委員改為5人，其中3人由立法院提名，哪一個組織可以這樣，行政、立法互相分享提名任命權的？5個人裡面3個立法院提名，2個行政院提名，就您的法學專業，有過這樣子的情況嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：並沒有，而且這本來就違背責任政治的要求。"],["吳委員思瑤：是啊！從來沒有這樣違背責任政治、違反憲法的，立法權竟剝奪行政院的提名權；還有翁委員的提案，同樣也破壞了任期交錯制，來癱瘓NCC的運作。我後面的內容都沒有辦法再提了，我要做個結論，違憲的修法還要再來一次嗎？已經被大法官打了嘴巴，告訴國會不可以有違憲這樣子的條文，2008年已經被否決了；2024年的國會還要再來一次嗎？主委，雖然您在這個位子上辛苦的奮戰了一段時間，但這樣的法律如果修過了，怎麼辦？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這是牴觸憲法，就是又重新走回頭路。"],["吳委員思瑤：再一次釋憲，而再一次釋憲的結果也會是一樣的，因為中華民國的憲法就是唯一的那一部，憲政的精神不會因為誰執政而轉彎、而改變。非常的遺憾，我也要說，主委您辛苦了，如果您被黃國昌委員列為頭號敵人，那您一定做對了很多事；如果您被傅崐萁委員每天這樣痛打、歪打，您一定做對了很多事，我們就依我們的良知來行事，違憲的法案萬萬不可！加油，給你勉勵。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請謝龍介委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","林國成","莊瑞雄","柯建銘","沈發惠","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","黃健豪","李昆澤","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","游顥","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","林沛祥","陳雪生"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一) 委員傅崐萁等33 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員傅崐萁等41 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 委員洪孟楷等25 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、 ( 四 ) 委員翁曉玲等 18 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.62034375,"end":10.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.695968750000002,"end":10.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.72971875,"end":11.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.03346875,"end":11.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.10471875,"end":14.644718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.117218750000003,"end":21.63096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.879718750000002,"end":56.44409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.44409375,"end":57.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.422843750000006,"end":68.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.44221875000001,"end":69.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.20159375,"end":76.00221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.17096875,"end":96.23534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.38346875,"end":93.46784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":96.11721875,"end":96.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.30284375000001,"end":121.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.64909375,"end":129.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.68159375000002,"end":137.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.88284375,"end":146.21909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.53971875000002,"end":150.60659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.01159375,"end":155.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.25971875000002,"end":161.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.04784375,"end":175.66596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.23971875,"end":182.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.66471875000002,"end":223.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.33346875,"end":253.25721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.96596875000003,"end":260.24346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.83846875,"end":266.63909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.31846875,"end":267.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.29284375000003,"end":269.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.00971875,"end":273.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.52409375,"end":285.04971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.69096875,"end":297.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":298.06034375,"end":311.40846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.30284375,"end":320.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":321.53346875,"end":324.87471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.26284375,"end":327.15284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":327.92909375,"end":329.66721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.22409375,"end":342.86346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.25159375000004,"end":361.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":362.30346875000004,"end":365.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":366.53909375,"end":380.47784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":381.05159375000005,"end":387.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":387.73409375,"end":418.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":419.12159375000005,"end":423.27284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":424.48784375,"end":426.95159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":427.35659375,"end":430.47846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":430.96784375000004,"end":438.03846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":438.52784375000005,"end":444.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.32846875,"end":448.75409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":448.53471875,"end":453.10784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":453.32721875000004,"end":465.00471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":465.49409375000005,"end":470.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.96159375,"end":475.87221875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.31096875000003,"end":479.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":480.81659375000004,"end":493.69221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":485.18721875000006,"end":485.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.41784375000003,"end":495.07596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":495.49784375,"end":502.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":503.58096875,"end":504.08721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":504.61034375,"end":509.85846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.57596875,"end":510.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":510.73596875000004,"end":510.98909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":510.98909375000005,"end":534.49596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":534.93471875,"end":540.2334687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":540.85784375,"end":548.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":547.60784375,"end":548.1984687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.872,"end":10.855,"text":"三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":22.932,"end":43.768,"text":"我要在這裡說,NCC就應當回歸專業。NCC就要去政治化。你可以不喜歡陳耀祥,你可以不欣賞陳耀祥,但NCC作為一個國家獨立運作的獨立機關,就法論法。"},{"start":46.23,"end":55.92,"text":"國會議員的責任是讓NCC的組織法建立一個不論誰執政都能夠穩健運作的制度。您同意嗎?"},{"start":57.806,"end":75.259,"text":"我為什麼要說其實NCC不應當這麼政治化的因為NCC掌理的每年有4萬到6萬件的民生相關業務對不對是的我也是經過爬書才知道原來NCC關切的不是這些國會議員每天在那邊"},{"start":76.34,"end":89.774,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第12屆第12屆第13屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第20屆第20屆第21屆第21屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第"},{"start":98.943,"end":120.763,"text":"電信設備的審查到所有國內外電信設備的驗證等等。如果NCC因為政治的心魔被癱瘓了,它被修法惡搞成一個沒有辦法穩健運作的獨立機關,每一天每一個台灣人民"},{"start":121.764,"end":135.544,"text":"不論你在什麼場域、不論你是幾歲、你的性別、你的生活也被癱瘓從你用的手機、你看的電視、你聽的廣播、你住的建築物會不會被斷網、被斷訊"},{"start":137.967,"end":155.22,"text":"所以請讓NCC回到專業這是我今天很重要的一個原則只是非常的遺憾啊司法法制委員會新國會以來有三個特色第一個就是選擇性跟針對性的修法或立法"},{"start":156.321,"end":182.267,"text":"第二）委員只進行政治性的修法及立法第三）委員就是一再端出違反憲法的立法或修法這三個惡法的樣態NCC組織法極大成了所以非常的難為但是我們透過討論的過程把事實呈現在國人面前下演"},{"start":183.737,"end":203.872,"text":"我為了做這個質詢我很努力去研讀很多的學術論文我手上這個是2006的一個學術論文我國獨立行政委員會組織建制與相關憲政問題之研究我才了解台灣的行政院組織法也好或者是我們行政機關組織形態"},{"start":205.953,"end":219.629,"text":"法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案案案案的狀態組成獨立機關最早這個來自於美國發展的一個獨立機關的運作的機制其實早在2002年總統府的政府改造委員會裡頭開始被討論跟倡議然後被上路"},{"start":224.415,"end":252.364,"text":"所以早在2002年的時候很清楚的對於獨立機關的建制理念跟原則都清楚的告訴我們一些需要專業化去政治化在決策過程要基於公共利益之實現的這些行政機關就要比一般的行政機關更客觀更中立保持更高的專業能力也更應當與政治保持距離"},{"start":253.965,"end":266.141,"text":"條文修正草案．立法院第1次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第2次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第3次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第4次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第5次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第6次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第7次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第8次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第9次聯席會議及法制、交通委員會組織法第10次聯"},{"start":271.572,"end":288.24,"text":"維縣的修法要再一次嗎?18年前提案的是國民黨跟親民黨要設置提名審查委員會依政黨比例原則而且要審查會通過同意的名單才可以提名哦!2006年申請釋憲2006年的7月21號宣告維縣2008年維縣的法律就要重新檢視刪除了"},{"start":299.055,"end":320.596,"text":"維縣的修法,立法院還要重蹈覆轍一次嗎?歷史的教訓還不夠嗎?下一頁。我們來看看這一次的修法多離譜啊。傅昆齊委員一個人提兩案,可能其中一案是傅昆齊提案,另外一案是傅齊昆的提案啊。"},{"start":321.644,"end":342.342,"text":"前後矛盾自打嘴巴我舉例就任期他第一個提案說可以連任一次下一個提案說沒有限制可以繼續連任相互矛盾自打嘴巴就傅崐萁跟傅琦坤兩個委員的提案"},{"start":344.364,"end":361.472,"text":"檢察會的設置、政黨比例的推薦,這都違憲的。還有他寫道:「相同黨籍者不可超過三位。」這是傅崐萁的提案。可是傅琦坤的提案說又要黨籍依據立法院的政黨比例。這不就是"},{"start":362.432,"end":386.71,"text":"前後措置、產生了矛盾和漢革．當然他也提到離職後三年不能擔任公職或代表政黨參選這就抵觸了憲法的參政權這是傅崐萁跟傅琦昆的一人兩案下一頁洪孟楷委員的提案也很離譜我很快的經驗報告呈現在國人面前"},{"start":387.831,"end":404.85,"text":"政黨比例委員會這都違憲。還有一個呢人事同意權未過原任委員任期及終止不得延任以及委員總額未達第四條關於人數之規定就在補足前不得議案來表決。換言之就是癱瘓嘛。"},{"start":406.191,"end":410.195,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":424.514,"end":452.653,"text":"他說委員改為五人其中三人由立法院提名哪一個組織可以這樣行政立法互相分享提名任命權的五個人裡面三個立法院提名兩個行政院提名就您的法學專業有過這樣子的並沒有而且這個本來就違背責任政治的要求是啊從來沒有這樣違背責任政治違反憲法"},{"start":453.813,"end":479.613,"text":"立法權來剝奪行政院的提名權．還有溫委員的提案同樣也破壞了任期交錯制來癱瘓NCC的運作。」好,我後面的內容都沒有辦法提了。我要做個結論。違憲的修法還要再來一次嗎?已經被大法官打了嘴巴"},{"start":480.868,"end":493.294,"text":"告訴國會不可以再違憲這樣子的條文2008年已經被否決了2024年的國會還要再來一次嗎?"},{"start":493.294,"end":502.359,"text":"各位雖然您即將在這個位置上辛苦的奮戰了一段時間這樣的法律如果修過了怎麼辦?"},{"start":504.622,"end":507.604,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案。"},{"start":535.049,"end":546.892,"text":"如果您被傅崐萁委員每天這樣痛打歪打您一定做對了很多事我們就依我們的良知來行事違憲的法案萬萬不可加油給您勉勵"}]}},{"id":"151942","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151942","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466be017ce64c5f0a8191853afabeb86d4497f5010e630711919771bfa2fcba23d975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"10:36:21 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10:48:51","影片長度":"00:12:30","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-16"},"duration":750,"end_time":"2024-05-01T10:48:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T10:36:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":346,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（10時36分）我們先請國土辦主任。"],["主席：請林主任。"],["林主任傑：委員早。"],["陳委員冠廷：主任好。我們知道無所不防就是全部設防，因為當你沒有把優先次序排序好的話，你等於是把所有的資源分散在所有關鍵基礎建設上面，關鍵基礎建設裡面，不管是水、電、基本的網際網路的維護、通訊等等，都算是關鍵的一環，這些基礎建設裡面，我們當然很重視，它就是我們重要的安全樞紐，包含醫療等等。我想談一下2017年開始，從臺灣到馬祖的海底電纜，至少已經發現過29次的斷纜事故，多半是被中國的船隻給破壞，然後我們看到您這邊第5頁有提到，強化各項保安防護量能，裡面有提到當船隻進入警戒區予以告警，還有包含管制中心有門禁管制紀錄、海纜設定自動警告系統等等，我想請教一下，在2023年2月份，有兩條海纜遭到勾斷，有沒有示警？自動警告系統有沒有發出作用？"],["林主任傑：報告委員，自動警報系統當然主要是針對善意的，如果是我方的漁船不小心靠近了，所以會提醒它離開。"],["陳委員冠廷：所以自動警告系統是針對善意的船隻？"],["林主任傑：如果今天它是惡意來做一個破壞，當然……"],["陳委員冠廷：就沒有辦法發生效應？"],["林主任傑：所以就要有其他的防衛手段，所以這個是多元複式的防衛手段之一。"],["陳委員冠廷：瞭解，那是多元複式的防衛手段，但是在2023年2月份它沒有有效地防範到，在包含2017年起的29起事件也沒有有效地做好防護的作法，是不是可以請你檢討一下，或者是請國土辦的其他同仁來思考一下有沒有更好的防護作法？因為你說它是多元的、複數型的方式來做防護，但是很顯然它是沒有效能的，沒有效能的話我們要做好未來，已經知道發生這樣的事情、已經知道它無效，是不是能夠做檢討？"],["林主任傑：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：想請教一下，如果做檢討的話，我看今年的預算大概是四百多萬，四百多萬的預算，你們國土辦有多少人？"],["林主任傑：目前國土辦編制人員是16位。"],["陳委員冠廷：16位，但是剛才我們也提到包含能源、供水、通訊傳播、金融、醫療，都是重要的一些基礎建設的安全樞紐，但是你們有16位，這樣的人數夠嗎？"],["林主任傑：跟委員報告，因為國土辦主要是做院層級的幕僚機關……"],["陳委員冠廷：我瞭解你們是幕僚機構、幕僚單位，實際上還是由行政院的其他各部會去做，我現在請教的是您自己覺得這樣子16位夠不夠，需不需要再去擴編，或者是有什麼樣的方式？因為我們剛才提到的就是電纜的問題已經出現多次了，我現在是在思考有沒有更好的方式，你有什麼樣的建議？"],["林主任傑：我跟委員報告，因為我們現在是打團體戰，以剛剛講的電纜通訊的韌性為例，目前行政院在統合這件事情的部分，主辦的主責單位是數位部的韌性建設司，當然相關網路的建設是由中華電信在執行，所以相關的備援，目前一個是海纜本身的備援，目前有多條的海纜，如果一條斷了會自動切換到第二條，我們也在增建更新的海纜，可以更增加海纜之間的餘裕度。另外一個，就算海纜斷了，我們有其他第二種方式的通訊手段，也就是用微波通訊，微波通訊的部分，在去年年底跟馬祖之間的微波通訊的備援能量已經達到足額的能量了，也就是就算海纜全部中斷，全部用微波也可以達到足額的通訊韌性。當然還有其他的，例如我們在空中的通訊，利用低軌衛星或相關的衛星通訊，這也是一個全面思考的範疇，因為這個面向很廣，我們剛剛提的只是通訊韌性，那如果電力韌性又會涉及到另外一個專業部門，或者是水的韌性又有另外一個專業部門，所以我們是用團體……"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。所以想請教主任，作為幕僚單位，你們主要負責的角色是什麼？提供建議給這些其他部門還是統籌他們的演練？"],["林主任傑：這個都包含，就是制度面的建立跟執行的監管與協助，像剛剛委員有提到我們相關的一些演練，我們現在是律定三層級的演練，包含以院層級來辦一個演練，也要求各個部會層級，以及CI自己執行單位的層級都要進行相關的演練跟巡檢，我們這邊除了帶頭做之外，我們也會抽檢。"],["陳委員冠廷：你們可以做要求嗎？"],["林主任傑：可以要求，當然、當然。"],["陳委員冠廷：我的意思是說我們剛才提到包含海底電纜的部分，還有其他的部分，我們對於高科技不管是網路安全（cybersecurity）的攻擊，當然都很重視，我覺得目前臺灣遇過比較多次成功危害到我國安全的，包含在桃園機場兩位工人的案件，我相信你應該知道這個事情，我看起來都是比較低科技但是高效能，而低科技、高效能的意思是不需要非常複雜的技能，他不需要是駭客，但是他可以成功癱瘓並且影響到人民對政府的信心，他不需要付出很多的代價，不需要去訓練一個年薪百萬、千萬的超級天才駭客侵入系統，我可以派遣人力直接去把重要的能源設施也好、航空設施也好，給予破壞，這個部分就是需要演練。你必須要假設，你必須要有情境演練，情境演練的話，當然希望未來國土辦可以花更多時間來督促水資源的部門、電力的部門、天然氣的部門，特別是天然氣相關的部分，我大概知道我們的安全系統，因為臺灣是一個治安非常好的地方，所以我們對於這種國家級的危害，基本上長時間沒有放在心上，這不僅僅是軍方，我想這是全臺灣普遍的一個心態。","這個普遍心態是建立在我們安全的治安上面，當然是可以理解的，但是現在的威脅已經多次提到2027年，這已經講很多次了，所以這部分我希望從國土辦開始，國安局也可以一起協力。在每一個揭密層級，或者是在接觸基礎建設、基礎設施的等級都必須要有非常完整的門禁系統，完整的門禁系統不是形式上看一下文件就可以進去或不可以進去，變成要更加嚴謹去執行，作為幕僚機構、提供協助的機構來講，你必須要確保這件事情真正在發生。我現在不講高科技，我就講低科技、高風險的事情，我們只需要兩個工人就可以癱瘓國家機場的電力，我們只要一個孤狼式的作案就可以進入高鐵的系統，我相信你還記得那位胡姓律師，當初應該某種程度是要造成重大的死傷，如果高鐵真的被破壞的話，就可能真的發生事情，所以我們不希望是作文，我們希望不斷地演練跟操練。請國安局長。"],["林主任傑：謝謝委員。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：局長好。不好意思！時間比較短，我們就針對以色列跟烏克蘭給臺灣的啟示來簡單詢問。首先是烏克蘭的部分，包含我們的準副總統當選人蕭美琴，還有一些其他重要領袖都一直強調烏克蘭對臺灣非常重要，烏克蘭的勝利對臺灣也很重要，你怎麼看這件事情？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，就整個國際的一些衝突情境的發生，它當然可以在軍事上給我們很多啟發，新的作戰方法有沒有我們可以學習的機會，這大概是我們觀察的第一個重點。第二重點是對於戰爭的預防跟示警，有沒有辦法在衝突發生之前就透過國際的情報合作，掌蒐到相關的動態趨勢，以便做必要的因應，或是透過預防外交的方式來降低衝突發生的可能性。我想這兩個層面的意義，對我們國安局來講都非常重要。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝局長。你剛剛講得非常好，我想請教烏克蘭的勝利是不是有辦法嚇阻另外一個大國對臺灣襲擊的可能性？"],["蔡局長明彥：當然，我想……"],["陳委員冠廷：為什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：烏克蘭戰事的發生，很多國家都在觀察它的意涵，包括攻擊方跟防守方，假如這次俄烏戰爭，烏克蘭沒辦法讓俄國增加侵略成本的話，很有可能其他有侵略意圖的國家也會抄襲這樣的侵犯動作跟行為。"],["陳委員冠廷：美國的國務卿最近接受BBC專訪，還有多家外媒專訪都不斷提到中國在提供一些重要的軍事零組件，它沒有直接把軍火給俄羅斯，但是它不斷提供重要的零組件給俄羅斯，讓俄羅斯能夠持續製造他們的裝甲戰爭機器等等，這樣的問題不斷出現，如果我們要有效嚇阻另外一個國家對臺灣侵襲的野心，我就講中共，那我們應該怎麼樣協助烏克蘭？我們不能夠也不應該直接軍事援助烏克蘭，但同時我們遇到中國直接提供一些重要的零件、零組件，讓他們可以大量、快速地在一年多的時間裡面，本來應該已經沒有軍事支援能夠持續戰爭，但是卻因為中國提供他們重要的零組件，臺灣可以扮演什麼角色？臺灣該不該扮演角色？"],["蔡局長明彥：就怎麼樣增加侵略者的戰爭成本，應該是國際民主社群大家要一起努力的，讓俄國這次的侵略行動可以遭受到必要的損失，嚇阻未來有類似的侵略戰爭行為。就臺灣來講，因為國際社會正在對俄羅斯進行各種經貿、工具機或科技產品的制裁，臺灣在這部分擁有相當強大的能量，怎麼樣來加入這樣的制裁……"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝局長，我必須要強調這個制裁的部分，我國其實有很多不肖的產業，抱歉！我講錯了，是不肖的企業提供一些重要的零組件給北韓以及俄羅斯，必須要把這些情報有效地遏止住。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["陳委員冠廷：我們不可以花錢把自己送上這一個絞架，這是不可以做的事情，所以這些情報必須要密切和我國友善的盟邦分享，以確保這樣的事情不會再發生。"],["蔡局長明彥：有。"],["陳委員冠廷：不要說美國在制裁，然後我們自己的企業還在做這些事情，這是不行的。再來，不好意思！召委，我簡單再補一句，我們必須從烏克蘭裡面，我當然知道大家會說這是其他人的戰爭，或者有人說這不是只有價值，我還是要強調這對臺灣來講是最好的方式，不只是這樣溝通或者是說外交的渠道，因為外交的渠道如果有效，現在我們大概也不會面臨中國的威脅，還是以實力為原則、以能力為原則。如果俄羅斯不斷以這樣的方式再去侵略烏克蘭，利用這樣的時間去驗證中國方面武器的有效度或無效度，我相信我們也必須要扮演更重要的角色，希望這部分的資訊能夠帶回去跟其他部門分享。"],["蔡局長明彥：一句話說明，這部分經濟部本來就有非常清楚的出口管制清單，國安局也有專案機制在整合各單位的情報分享，避免這些管制產品流落到俄羅斯的手中，我們持續在做。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為有不少友邦有這樣的反映，我們必須要正視這個問題，這是威脅到我們自己的國家安全。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，國際的情報交流在這方面也有進行合作，謝謝。"],["陳委員冠廷：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請洪申翰委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-16","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","林楚茵","沈伯洋","王定宇","陳冠廷","洪申翰","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","黃仁","邱志偉","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會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主任 請定主任委員長 主任好"},{"start":12.694,"end":41.212,"text":"我們知道說這個無所不防就是全不設防因為當你把優先次序沒有排序好的話你等於是說把所有的資源分散在所有關鍵基礎建設上面那關鍵基礎建設裡面不管是水、電基本的網際網路的維護、通訊等等都算是關鍵的一環那這些基礎建設裡面我們當然很重視它是我們重要的安全軀紐包含醫療等等"},{"start":41.952,"end":64.375,"text":"那我想談一下2017年開始從台灣到馬祖的海底店至少已經發現過29次的這個斷纜的事故多半是被中國的船隻給破壞然後我們看到您這邊第5頁有提到說強化各項保安防護量的你們有提到說當船隻進入警戒區予以告解那還有"},{"start":65.735,"end":77.464,"text":"這些包含管制中心、門禁、管制紀錄、海欄設定、自動警告系統等等我想請教一下在2023年2月份有兩條海欄遭到勾斷,有沒有事件?"},{"start":80.402,"end":81.724,"text":"自動警報系統有沒有發出作用?"},{"start":95.703,"end":119.902,"text":"是針對善意的傳指如果說今天他是惡意來做一個破壞他當然他就沒有辦法發生效應所以就要其他的防衛的手段所以這個是多元複式的一種防衛的手段了解這是多元複式的防衛手段但是在2023年2月份他沒有有效的防範到在包含2017年起的29起的這一個事件也沒有有效的做好防護的做法"},{"start":120.282,"end":147.952,"text":"那是不是可以請你檢討一下或者是請國土辦其他同仁來思考一下有沒有更好的防護做法因為你說它是多元的複數型的方式來做防護但是很顯然的它是沒有效能的那沒有效能的話我們要做好未來已經知道發生這樣的事情已經知道它無效那是不是可以請能夠做檢討是那想請教一下如果做檢討的話我看今年的預算大概是400多萬嗎400多萬的預算你們大概有國土辦有多少人"},{"start":149.006,"end":172.665,"text":"目前國土辦編制人員是16位16位但是剛才我們也提到包含能源供水、通訊傳播、金融、醫療都是重要的一些基礎建設的安全軀扭但是你們有16位這樣的人數夠嗎?因為國土辦主要是做院長級的幕僚機構幕僚機構幕僚單位事實上還是由行政院其他各部會去做我現在請教的是說您自己覺得"},{"start":174.651,"end":181.796,"text":"這樣16位夠不夠?需不需要再去破邊?或者是有什麼樣的方式?因為我們剛才提到的就是電纜的問題已經出現多次了"},{"start":183.004,"end":211.787,"text":"我現在不是要是在思考說有沒有更好的方式你有什麼樣的建議我跟委員報告因為我們現在是打團體戰就以例如剛剛講這個電纜通訊的韌性這個為例那在目前在行政院在統合這件事情的部分主辦的主責單位是數位部的韌性司啦韌性建設司那當然這個相關的網路的建設是由中華電信在執行所以相關的備援"},{"start":212.688,"end":236.168,"text":"目前一個是海瀾本身的備援目前有多條的海瀾如果一條斷了有切換到自動切換到第二條那我們也在增建新的更新的海瀾可以更增加海瀾之間的一個餘裕度另外一個就算海瀾斷了我們有其他第二種方式的通訊手段也就是用微波通訊那微波通訊的部分在去年年底"},{"start":237.349,"end":259.711,"text":"馬祖之間的微波通訊的備援能量已經達到足額的能量了也就是說就算海嵐全部中斷光靠微波全部用微波也可以達到足額的一個通訊的一個韌性當然還有其他的例如說我們在空中的通訊利用低軌衛星或相關的衛星通訊這也是一個全面思考的一個範疇所以在做"},{"start":260.652,"end":274.909,"text":"因為這個面向很廣我們現在剛剛提的只是一個通訊韌性那如果電力韌性又會涉及到另外一個專業部門那或者是水的韌性又有另外一個專業部門所以想請教主任一下那作為幕僚單位你們主要"},{"start":276.28,"end":293.092,"text":"負責的這個角色是什麼提供建議給這些其他部門還是統籌他們的演練這個都都包含就是制度面的一個建立跟執行的一個監管跟一個協助啊像剛有提到說我們相關的一些演練我們也會預定說"},{"start":294.273,"end":294.834,"text":"我們可以做要求嗎?"},{"start":310.174,"end":310.494,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":340.234,"end":355.75,"text":"我看起來都是比較低科技但是高效能低科技高效能意思說他不需要用非常複雜的技能他不需要是駭客但是他可以成功癱瘓並且影響到人民對政府的信心那他不需要花出很多的代價我不需要去訓練一個"},{"start":356.971,"end":361.694,"text":"這部分就是需要演練你必須要假設你必須要有情境演練那情境演練的話那當然是希望說未來這個國土辦可以花更多的時間來督促"},{"start":380.945,"end":383.129,"text":"臺灣是一個自然非常好的地方所以我們對於這種國家級的危害基本上"},{"start":396.249,"end":396.469,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":418.103,"end":445.816,"text":"或者是說在這個不管是在接觸這個基礎建設基礎設施的這些等級都必須要非常完整的門禁系統那完整的門禁系統不是說說就是形式上面看一下你的這個文件你可以進去你不可以進去變得要更加嚴謹的去執行那作為幕僚機構作為提供協助的這個機構來講你必須要確保這件事情真正在發生我現在不講高科技我就講低科技高風險的事情"},{"start":446.576,"end":472.164,"text":"我們只需要兩個工人就可以癱瘓我們國家機場的電力我們只要一個孤狼式的作案就可以進入高鐵的系統我相信你還記得那位吳信律師當初要顛覆應該說某種程度是要造成重大的死傷那只要是高鐵如果真的是被破壞的話就可能真的發生事情所以我們不需要作文我們需要不斷的演練跟操練那我們請國安局長請蔡局長"},{"start":480.402,"end":499.651,"text":"局長,不好意思時間比較短,那我們就針對以色列跟烏克蘭的部分,給台灣的啟示這邊簡單的來詢問首先烏克蘭的這個部分,我想包含我們的準副總統當選的蕭美琴還有一些其他的重要國的元首都一直在強調烏克蘭對台灣非常重要,那烏克蘭的勝利對台灣也很重要,你怎麼看這件事情?"},{"start":500.696,"end":518.502,"text":"對,我想就整個國際的一些衝突的情境的發生然後他當然可以在軍事上給我們很多的啟發新的作戰的方法有沒有我們可以學習的機會這大概是我們觀察的第一個重點第二個重點是對於戰爭的預防跟示警有沒有辦法在衝突發生之前"},{"start":518.922,"end":521.983,"text":"謝謝局長,局長你剛剛講得非常好,那我想請教,那烏克蘭勝利是不是有辦法嚇阻另外一個大國對台灣的這個襲擊的可能性?"},{"start":543.77,"end":566.013,"text":"當然,我想烏克蘭的一個戰事的發生那很多國家都在觀察它的一個意涵這包括攻擊方跟防守方那假如說這一次的惡霧戰爭烏克蘭沒有辦法來讓俄國增加它侵略的成本的話很有可能其他也有侵略意圖的國家也會來抄襲這樣的一個侵犯的一個動作跟行為"},{"start":566.854,"end":592.843,"text":"好那美國的國務卿最近接受BBC的專訪還有多家外媒的專訪都不斷的提到中國是把一些重要的軍事領土艦他沒有直接把軍火給這個俄羅斯但是他把重要的領土艦不斷的提供給俄羅斯讓俄羅斯持續能夠來去製造他們的裝甲戰爭機器等等那這樣子的問題不斷的在出現如果我們要有效嚇阻另外一個國家對台灣侵襲的野心我就講中共那我們應該怎麼樣協助烏克蘭"},{"start":594.964,"end":609.795,"text":"我們不能夠也不應該直接軍事援助這股客覽但是同時我們遇到中國是直接把一些重要的零件零組件讓他們可以大量的在快速的經過一年多的時間裡面本來應該已經沒有軍事資源能夠持續戰爭"},{"start":610.896,"end":631.547,"text":"但是卻因為中國的原因能夠提供他們重要的民主圈臺灣可以扮演什麼角色?臺灣該不該扮演角色?我想就怎麼樣來增加侵略者戰爭的成本應該是國際民主社群大家一起來來努力的來讓俄國這次侵略行動可以遭受到必要的一個損失而嚇阻未來有類似的一個侵略的一個戰爭的行為那就臺灣來講國際社會因為正在對"},{"start":634.488,"end":638.732,"text":"我必須要強調這個制裁的部分還有我國其實有很多不肖的產業不肖的企業抱歉我講錯了不肖的企業包含提供一些重要的零組件給北韓"},{"start":657.076,"end":679.839,"text":"以及俄羅斯這些都必須要把這些情報有效的遏止住我們不可以花錢自己把自己送上這一個腳架這是不可以做的事情那所以這些情報必須要密切的和我國友善的盟邦來分享這些資訊來確保這樣的事情不會再發生不要說美國在制裁然後我們自己的企業還在做這些事情這是不行的"},{"start":680.539,"end":684.384,"text":"再補一句就是說我們必須從烏克蘭裏面我當然知道說大家說這是其他人的戰爭或者說有人說這個不是只有價值我還是要強調這個是對台灣來講最好的方式不是說"},{"start":697.739,"end":697.919,"text":"陳冠廷"},{"start":724.508,"end":724.868,"text":"國際情報加油"}]}},{"id":"151941","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151941","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bdedcf80996f7a3991e4149ad024bf7a87f5010e630711919799c8eb37eb667cc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林思銘","委員發言時間":"10:37:36 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案。"},{"start":57.298,"end":86.529,"text":"我想本月的交通委員會的這個調閱專專業小組的開會確定調閱的相關的資料範圍包含禁電式的營運資料行政調查報告等23個事項但是NCC的回函表示說尚有意義請交通委員會釐清並釋明公文中長篇大論的大義就是不願提供啦"},{"start":88.82,"end":111.477,"text":"NCC對於競電式的上架社會有這麼多的疑問也提出錄音檔當時的行政院長蘇貞昌他對外宣稱可以不必查院長講不必查了所以現在立法院交通委員會成立專案小組調約小組要來查"},{"start":114.158,"end":139.847,"text":"我想這個很明顯的是依照我們立法院的職權行使法的相關規定也是憲法上所賦予我們立法院有議決相關重要事項這樣的一個職權但是NCC卻一手遮顛不給查所以剛才您的回答這是您一個人的決定"},{"start":141.345,"end":169.44,"text":"所以我想就叫主委NCC是不是你一個人說了算我可以說什麼好我現在問你好第一個我們並沒有拒絕所謂的調閱資料我們只是向大院的交友會的調閱小組交友會回覆說這個部分程序釐清因為調閱資料要依照程序嘛我們給予資料也是依照程序嘛因為這個資料會涉及到第三人或營業主委我現在問你說是不是你一個人說了算我們是依照729號"},{"start":170.501,"end":172.101,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":191.65,"end":198.277,"text":"立法院第四條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第四條條文修正草案．立法院第四條條文修正草案"},{"start":213.698,"end":231.189,"text":"法律案、預算案、條約、宣戰購等相關的事項,比如說今天可能如果是這涉及到預算執行採購﹖主委你又詐提了啦我現在講的是我們63條的有關立法院可以預決重大事項這樣的一個職權請問你"},{"start":235.768,"end":239.933,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 。"},{"start":251.957,"end":254.119,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":267.768,"end":270.089,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":285.054,"end":288.036,"text":"立法院第16屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16屆第18屆議員會組織法第18屆議員會組織法第19屆議員會組織法第20屆議員會組織法第31屆議員會組織法第32屆議員會組織法第33屆議員會組織法第34屆議員會組織法第36屆議員會組織法第37屆議員會組織法第38屆議員會組織法第39屆議員會組織法第40屆議員會組織法第41屆議員會組織法第41屆議員會組織法第42屆議員會組織法第42屆議員會組織法第43屆議員會"},{"start":309.4,"end":326.212,"text":"那我想剛才針對幾位委員的一個詢答您的心態我們覺得非常可疑你是不是覺得說你今天站在這裡這個回答那麼我們委員大家對你有非常多的強烈的這種質詢"},{"start":328.493,"end":350.163,"text":"那您是不是抱著一個心態講說我站在這裡這個幾分鐘我這個回答硬凹強詞奪理就可以了不管委員怎麼樣去論理論法你完全可以依照自己的意思我愛怎麼回答我就怎麼回答完全不理會委員你的心態是不是站在這裡硬凹就可以了"},{"start":351.561,"end":361.649,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第18條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第18條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11屆第18條條文修正草案．一）立法院第18條條文修正草案．一）立法院第19條條文修正草案．一）立法院第19條條文修正草案．一）立法院第20條條文修正草案．一）立法院第21條條文修正草案．一）"},{"start":373.078,"end":398.767,"text":"我想這是當然是你的強詞奪理的一個說法其實我想我們大家的看法那麼清楚就認為說這個已經那麼具體明確的要跟你調閱資料你還去硬凹講說要交通委員會釐清市民這23個事項所以你還在這邊強詞奪理所以我覺得啊NCC啊如果是這樣效忠一個人就可以了不如廢掉了"},{"start":400.066,"end":402.087,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"}]}},{"id":"151940","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151940","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b2a98c26e12e864041e4149ad024bf7a87f5010e6307119195bdf70add8e932595ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"10:23:47 - 10:33:56","影片長度":"00:10:09","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員傅崐萁等41人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1"},"duration":609,"end_time":"2024-05-01T10:33:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T10:23:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":411,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（10時24分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長、官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請陳主委。"],["主席：麻煩主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主委好。請問一下，目前行政院的二級獨立機關有哪幾個？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就中選會、公平會跟NCC。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他們都是行政院的？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，就行政院底下的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：獨立機關在行政院底下要做什麼事情？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：依中央行政機關組織基準法來講的話，它的人事方面比較有一定的獨立性。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但它還是一個行政部門？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：它還是行政機關。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們請問一下，這三個機關中，中選會是辦什麼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：辦選務。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那公平交易委員會呢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是辦一般市場競爭的議題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那NCC呢？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們辦通訊傳播相關的業務。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這三個獨立機關如果不能正常運作會有什麼影響？比如說中選會不能運作、癱瘓了，委員人數不夠，我們臺灣可以辦選舉嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：那就沒有辦法辦選舉了。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果臺灣中選會不能運作、不能正常的、定期的民主改選，你覺得臺灣人民會開心嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：可能會政治風暴很大。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是誰會獲利？如果臺灣這民主國家不能進行正常的民主改選，誰會得利、誰會很開心？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然就是對臺灣有敵意的國家。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問NCC負責什麼任務？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們負責通訊傳播的一些相關業務。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有包括手機的審驗？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：有沒有包括網路的設置？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有電信網路設置。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下，如果我現在的手機iPhone要升級，新的手機要不要經過你們審驗？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：都要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我的基地臺要升級，要不要經過你們審驗？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這些所有在臺灣的射頻裝置，我們生活中所有的射頻儀器如果要更新，要不要經過你們審驗？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：原則上都要。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果NCC的委員會不能正常運作，你覺得臺灣會怎麼樣？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：整個通訊傳播市場會陷入癱瘓。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果是這樣子，誰得利？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：大家都受害。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我們來看一下今天這些提案，實質上是不是會造成這些獨立機關癱瘓、不能運作，使全民受害？","今天很多委員都在談中天電視臺的換照爭議，今天法律的修正提案的說明說中天新聞臺不予換照，獨立機關的地位受到強烈的質疑，請問主委就你所知道的，當年中天的換照審查有政治壓力嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們7個委員都本於各自的職權、各自的專業去進行判斷，包括像相關的聽證、各種程序、外部的專家參與，程序是嚴謹的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我們看到有一位委員很強烈的表達，2020年11月18號黃國昌委員的臉書說終於向蔡衍明的中天告別了，顯然他是希望中天不能延照了，NCC委員頂住了政治壓力，顯然黃國昌委員認為有政治壓力，但是他認為NCC委員頂住了政治壓力、守住了專業審查，決議否決蔡旺旺的中天新聞換照申請，你認為黃委員這裡所說的政治壓力是指來自哪方面的政治壓力？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：政治壓力應該是來自於各界吧？"],["鍾委員佳濱：是要求中天繼續播？還是要求中天不能播？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：各界的意見都有，但是獨立機關本來就是要扛得住壓力。"],["鍾委員佳濱：他說扛住政治壓力，黃委員是希望告別中天，他認為的政治壓力顯然是要讓中天延續下去，但他肯定NCC的外部委員，他說指控這些委員受民進黨控制是完全搞不清楚狀況，這是當年黃國昌委員說的。他認為我們NCC尤其是民間的專業委員未屈服於外部壓力，沒有屈服於來自對岸的壓力，讓中天繼續延續，它頂住了。","來往下看大法官釋字第613號解釋，在去年還是今年，有一位參選副總統的候選人說NCC委員按照政黨比例，結果新聞說18年前就宣告違憲了，舊的NCC組織法哪裡違憲？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就是剛才所講的，NCC的人事權是在行政院，原來舊的組織法裡面是依照立法院的政黨比例代表去處理，這違反獨立機關設置的基本原則，所以被宣告違憲。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我很好奇，其實它有兩個層次，要NCC獨立機關的委員按照政黨比例來推薦，這個當然大法官說是違憲的，但是政黨推薦或者說由政黨來組審查會，其實我認為這個可以討論。請問主委你知道目前哪些政府的機關或部門的審查委員會，由立法院組成的審查委員會是由政黨比例推薦的嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就我所瞭解，目前應該只有公共電視是照比例。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有錯，公共電視法的董監事，公共電視顧名思義就是要公共化，不能夠專屬於服務某黨、某派，但是董監事一樣由行政院提名，由立法院推薦11到15位社會公正人士組成審查會，當然這個推薦過程就會反映出政黨的比例，你認為經過這樣的審查結果可以維持它的公共性嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：以公共性來講，可能說強化一些公共參與……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是由立法院審查的時候，這些審查的人員是由立法院按照政黨比例來安排的，來審行政院提名的董監事名單，你覺得這樣可以嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：公共電視性質跟NCC不一樣，NCC是一個機關，他有公權力的問題，公共電視是一個媒體。"],["鍾委員佳濱：但是我個人認為如果今天是由行政院提名委員，立法院我們要審查這些同意權的行使，就像我們修憲委員會其實是由本院的委員按照政黨比例來分配，我們怎麼審查是立法院的事情。我認為提名權專屬於行政院，但是怎麼審查，其實是由我們立法院來決定。","另外，有人提出了兩個版本，其實我很好奇，為什麼有一位委員要提兩個版本呢？是不是跟當年縣長選舉一樣，一位是徐候選人，一位是傅候選人，兩個都要當選是這樣嗎？我們不管，往下看，這裡的傅版本當中，他說要新增不信任條款，請問一下目前就你所知道的，由立法院行使同意權的這些人事案，有哪一項可以由立法院來予以撤回？比如說把他解職，有沒有？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：就我所瞭解是沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：完全沒有嘛？不管是憲政機關，總統提名交給立法院行使審查權的，同意之後，他就任命了，甚至原來任命的人也不可以解職他，是不是這樣？行政院提來的也沒有嘛！中選會委員，立法院可以叫他解職嗎？不行嘛！今天還有一個說法是，NCC有人提議限制單一黨籍不得超過三分之一，我覺得要確保NCC的獨立性，我們限制委員的政黨屬性維持中立，你支不支持？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個基本上是可以啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們要求委員要退出政黨活動，你支不支持？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：可以，這本來就應該要的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果我們都要求這些委員未來行使的時候不受他原來曾經所屬的政黨影響，但現在又要求他們要政黨來推薦，你覺得這有沒有牴觸、有沒有衝突？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個是矛盾的一個關係。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛！所以我認為如果我們未來法案又說限制委員當中的單一黨籍不得超過三分之一，我覺得這還有道理，但是我們既然要求他要退出政黨活動，甚至要退出政黨，我還要他用政黨來推薦，難道我們希望NCC的委員由各自政黨來指揮嗎？你希望NCC的委員以後由推薦他的政黨來指揮他嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然，我們不希望看到這種局面啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以說嘛！我說目前的提案，如果強制NCC委員必須有某個政黨的推薦，甚至有黨籍，還要按照比例來分配，這當然不能超出他的政黨的利益，不能提升NCC的獨立性。最後我要說的是，這裡面有一個委員說其他的國家也有這些獨立機關是由國會來分享這個提名權的，但我們來看一下，韓國也好、法國也好，這些國會享有通傳會的任命權，是因為連憲法上都規定國會的議長有大法官的任命權。請問目前中華民國的憲法，我們國會有大法官的任命權嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：沒有嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：現在沒有。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以其實政治制度有很多樣，我們不能挑自己想要的，目前中華民國本文、增修條文，我們的憲政體制，連大法官，我們行使同意權的國會都沒有提名權、都沒有任命權了，所以現在對於屬於行政院的二級獨立機關，我們要來提出有任命權或有提名權，這是很奇怪的。","最後我的結論，當然這個不是由主委來決定的，但是你在卸任之前，這兩個訴求我想聽聽你的意見，如果未來我們希望NCC委員退出政黨，你支不支持？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然同意啊！支持。"],["鍾委員佳濱：你是不是覺得未來的NCC要確保持續運作，不能夠藉由不續任條款？剛有人提到的，當人事同意有問題，沒辦法足額的時候，NCC如果缺額，它會癱瘓，所以我們要如何確保NCC的運作？NCC持續運作是不是符合臺灣自由民主法治國家人民的共同利益？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。我們現在休息3分鐘。","休息（10時33分）","繼續開會（10時37分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","接下來請林思銘委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","林國成","莊瑞雄","柯建銘","沈發惠","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","黃健豪","李昆澤","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","游顥","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","林沛祥","陳雪生"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一) 委員傅崐萁等33 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員傅崐萁等41 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 委員洪孟楷等25 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、 ( 四 ) 委員翁曉玲等 18 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案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第"},{"start":206.756,"end":208.558,"text":"指控這些委員受民進黨控制是完全搞不清楚狀況"},{"start":234.301,"end":257.574,"text":"這是當年的黃國昌委員說的那他認為我們NCC尤其是民間專委委員為去乎外部壓力沒有去乎外部壓力沒有去乎來自對岸的壓力讓中天繼續延續他頂住了還記得來往下看613的解釋在去年還是今年有一位參選副總統的候選人他說NCC委員按照正常比例結果新聞說18年前就宣告違憲了舊的NCC組織法哪裡違憲"},{"start":260.169,"end":286.982,"text":"就是剛才所講的基本這個NCC的人事權是在行政院那這個原來的這個舊的這個組織法裡面是依照所謂的立法院的政黨比例代表制去處理的這違反獨立機關設置基本原則宣告違憲那我很好奇啦其實還有兩個層次啦要NCC獨立機關委員按照政黨案、政黨比例來推薦這個當然大法官說是違憲的但是"},{"start":288.004,"end":305.313,"text":"政黨推薦來或者由政黨來組成審查會其實我認為這個可以討論請問主委你知道我們目前哪些政府的機關或部門他的審查委員會立法院主任審查委員會是由政黨比例推薦的嗎"},{"start":306.331,"end":334.014,"text":"就我所了解目前應該是有公共電視沒有錯公共電視法董監事公共電視顧名思惠他要公共化不能夠專屬於服務某黨某派但是呢董監事一樣有行政院提名但是呢立法院推薦啊10到11到15的一個社會公正人組成審查會審查會當然這個推薦過程就會反映出政黨的比例那麼你認為經過這樣的審查結果可以維持他的一個公共性嗎"},{"start":335.219,"end":349.751,"text":"公共性來講是說這他是參與可能說強化一些公共參與就是說審查由立法院審查的時候這些審查的人員是由立法院按照政黨比例來安排的來審行政院提名的董建世董名單你就這樣可以嗎"},{"start":351.434,"end":379.73,"text":"公共電視性質跟NCC不一樣。NCC是一個機關,它有公權力的問題。公共電視是一個媒體。但是我個人是認為啊,如果說今天是由行政院來提名委員,但是立法院,就像立法院我們要審查這些同意權的行使,我們修憲委員會其實有本院的委員按照正常比例來分配,我們怎麼審查是立法院的事情。我認為提名權專屬於行政院,但是怎麼審查,其實我們立法院來決定。那往下看。"},{"start":380.31,"end":388.197,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一）委員傅崐萁等23人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":401.149,"end":412.433,"text":"請問一下目前你所知道的由立法院行使同意權的這些人事案有哪一項可以由立法院來予以撤回?比如說予以把他解職有沒有?完全沒有嘛"},{"start":416.038,"end":442.794,"text":"不管是憲政機關總統提名交給立法院來行使審查的同意之後他就任命了甚至原來任命的人也不可以解職他是不是這樣那行政院提來的也沒有嗎中選委員我們可以立法院叫他解職嗎不行嗎好所以往下看那麼所以呢我認為啊今天呢我們認為我們如果說今天還有一個說法說怎樣往下看再往下看齁因為時間的關係齁如果往上"},{"start":444.482,"end":454.386,"text":"立法院第11會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第十條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第十條條文修正草案．一）立法院第11會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第十條條文修正草案．"},{"start":461.289,"end":476.639,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案（事由．立法院第11屆第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第18條條文修正草案．立法院第19條條文修正草案．立法院第19條條文修正草案．立法院第20條條文修正草案．立法院第21條條文修正草案．立法院第22條條文修正草案．立法院第23"},{"start":482.503,"end":494.112,"text":"但是我們既然要求他要退出政黨活動甚至要退出政黨我還要他用政黨來推薦難道我們認為希望NC的委員由各自政黨來指揮嗎你希望NC的委員由推薦他的政黨來指揮他嗎"},{"start":496.786,"end":498.848,"text":"立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":516.503,"end":519.645,"text":"立法委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．一．"},{"start":544.542,"end":568.452,"text":"所以其實政治制度有很多樣我們不能挑自己想要的目前中華民國本文、正修條文、我們的憲政體制連大法官、我們行使同意權的國會都沒有提名權、都沒有任命權了所以現在對於屬於行政院的二級獨立機關我們要來提出有任命權或有提名權這是很奇怪的最後我的結論主席站起來了"},{"start":569.292,"end":589.542,"text":"我希望未來當然這個不是由主委你來決定的但是你在卸任之前這兩個訴求我想聽你的意見如果未來我們希望NC委員退出政黨你知不支持當然同意那你是不是覺得未來的NC要確保持續運作不能夠藉由不續任條款剛剛有人提到的當"},{"start":591.221,"end":609.255,"text":"人事同意有問題沒辦法阻隔的時候,NCC如果缺額他會癱瘓。所以我們要如何確保一些運作,NCC持續運作,是不是符合台灣自由民主法治國家人民的共同利益。當然。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。那我們現在休息三分鐘。"}]}},{"id":"151939","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151939","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bc28f5db25b0aaeb51853afabeb86d4497f5010e6307119196d8280b3e7255b855ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"10:23:32 - 10:35:51","影片長度":"00:12:19","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-16"},"duration":739,"end_time":"2024-05-01T10:35:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T10:23:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":261,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（10時23分）謝謝，麻煩蔡局長。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：謝謝，蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，王委員早。"],["王委員定宇：局長早。我們今天這個題目其實訂得還滿精準的，三個名詞──關鍵基礎設施（CI）；第二個，新型態威脅；第三個，因應。這3個題目精準，但是很大，我就拿一些比較集中的部分來請教我們這幾年有沒有做什麼準備。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["王委員定宇：美國拜登總統在2021年5月跟7月有簽署一個行政命令，要求國土安全部、網路安全跟基礎設施安全局（CISA）針對公部門與關鍵基礎設施工業控制系統，這是指民間，在應對資安攻擊要建立SOP、定義跟處理方式。我現在要請教局長，在你們定義的關鍵基礎設施是怎麼去定義它的？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，關鍵基礎設施事實上在行政院的相關關鍵基礎設施安全防護的指導綱要裡面都有做完整的規定。韌性的定義以及相關後續的安全維護……"],["王委員定宇：我們是一個正面表列的方式嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，都有。"],["王委員定宇：因為時代進步非常快，比方說NVIDIA的AI晶片大概在5年前，那個圖像晶片其實並沒有像現在那麼受重視，可是過了三、五年突然間就進入到了另外一個level，或者是low orbit低軌道的衛星在幾年前這個東西還不見，現在因為馬斯克等等，所以這個正面表列你們多久更新一次，把關鍵基礎設施放在裡面？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們定期都會有開相關的政策會報……"],["王委員定宇：定期是多久一次？"],["蔡局長明彥：每一年都有召開。"],["王委員定宇：一年一次間隔會不會太長？"],["蔡局長明彥：但每一次開會的過程當中，我們也會針對比較新的發展……"],["王委員定宇：我們現在有專責單位去蒐集、定義什麼叫做關鍵基礎設施嘛！"],["蔡局長明彥：這部分行政院的國土辦這邊是……"],["王委員定宇：由國土辦負責嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：那國土辦現在手上有多少人力去做這個事情？"],["林主任傑：報告委員，目前有24位人力，但是國土辦主要是做統合……"],["王委員定宇：你其實還要指揮其他單位。"],["林主任傑：是。"],["王委員定宇：剛才講一年討論一次、renew，什麼叫做關鍵基礎設施？"],["林主任傑：報告委員，政策會報是一年一次，但是適時的時候會召開，也有相關的業務會報，由政委來主持。"],["王委員定宇：你們上次召開是什麼時候？"],["林主任傑：上次是在今年的1月多。"],["王委員定宇：是1月多召開？"],["林主任傑：對，副院長有指示要……"],["王委員定宇：這個1月多有沒有增設CI設施？"],["林主任傑：目前沒有，但是剛剛委員所提的，在我們另外有一個叫做關鍵科技技術裡面，在相關的其它法令有一些規範，因為我們這邊講的是關鍵基礎設施，基礎設施裡面通常講的是油、水、電……"],["王委員定宇：我是建議林傑主任。"],["林主任傑：是。"],["王委員定宇：第一個，我們現在520新的部會首長會上來，會有一些新的想法。"],["林主任傑：是。"],["王委員定宇：我們常常太分散，尤其講到資安啦！講到灰色地帶啦！或者叫Hybrid Warfare啦！它會分散在很多單位，我們在軍方會看到，國安局會看到，你們那裡也會看到，所以有時候會鬆散掉。但是這個東西不能掛一漏萬的，所以我現在就是請問，既然公私領域都有，美國有公布標準作業程序跟定義還有處理方式，2021年5月跟7月。後來他們就編了錢開始去做這些設施，我印象中是拜登總統，把半導體（semiconductor）列為關鍵基礎設施，還弄了一個很大一筆金額的法案。我們臺灣現在的關鍵基礎設施公民營都有嗎？"],["林主任傑：有。"],["王委員定宇：民營的有哪些可以舉例出來？"],["林主任傑：有一些通訊的，或者是廣播的。"],["王委員定宇：通訊？"],["林主任傑：對，或者是廣播。"],["王委員定宇：是基地台嗎？"],["林主任傑：還有一些是醫療設施。"],["王委員定宇：你的通訊是指光纖網絡、基地台、交換機還是指什麼？"],["林主任傑：抱歉委員，因為這個個別的我可能不方便說明，但是就是在通訊方面……"],["王委員定宇：OK，涉及機敏的可以不在這邊說，我尊重。比方說台積電，很清楚，媒體有報導，它算嘛！"],["林主任傑：台積電是民間的業者，是單純提供一些服務，所以它並不是提供給大眾的、公共的、我們所定義的基礎服務。"],["王委員定宇：但它是重要的設施。"],["林主任傑：還有還有關鍵的科技技術。"],["王委員定宇：它算是戰略設施。"],["林主任傑：戰略的設施。"],["王委員定宇：公眾場合的電子布告板算不算？"],["林主任傑：這就是看它營運的單位，通常是算的。"],["王委員定宇：因為我在大會問過唐鳳，大概是在裴洛西來的那一年，我們整個一萬多家CVS（便利商店）的布告板，啪！就被變掉了。這如果在天災或者面臨威脅的時候，它突然之間給你丟一個假訊息，會形成政府跟民間的訊息被切斷，或者錯誤的訊息導致混亂。臺灣處處都有便利商店，所以當那裡出現深層造假或者相關的假錯訊息其實是很危險的。你們有把它納入嘛，所以就這個題目，本席要問的最後一題就是，你們有公布相關的導引（guide line）以及執行導引的規範，包含獎勵或罰則或者怎麼樣？我告訴你民間該這麼做，因為這屬於關鍵基礎設施（CI）、你必須要達到這個、達到那個規範，規範你做不到的，我怎麼輔導你，你該做卻不做的，我該怎麼去要求你，我們有沒有這個事情？"],["林主任傑：報告委員，這個有。因為剛剛提的大部分都是在資通安全領域的運用、資通設備一些的運用，所以在關鍵基礎設施的這些營運者，都是資通安全管理法裡面的特定非公務機關，所以它有相關的義務跟事項。"],["王委員定宇：我希望你們準備一份你們怎麼要求、怎麼落實要求、要求哪些單位，該用機密就機密，可以公布就公布，讓本席或者本委員會看到。"],["林主任傑：是。"],["王委員定宇：我們才能去追蹤你每一年到底增加什麼東西啊！你怎麼要求啊！你懂我的意思嗎？主任你先請回。","回到局長，520快到了，在520前夕，包含各國情報單位都顯示說，中國對臺灣有相當多的作法，我認為叫圖謀不軌啦！就是不正當的作法、滋擾的作法、破壞的作法、污辱性的作法，我們國安局有沒有掌握這樣的情資？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我想在大選之後，我們看到中共對臺政策的樣態，主要還是和戰的兩手，透過釋放各種利多的訊息，或是透過各種灰色地帶的脅迫來凸顯它在臺海議題上的主動權。"],["王委員定宇：你們掌握它的情資，到目前為止最嚴重的，它會怎麼做？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們要注意到的是，他們現在比較大的重點是放在例行性的聯合戰備警巡，它的規模會擴大，跟過去來比較，有沒有一些新的動作……"],["王委員定宇：它的聯合戰備警巡其實之前開始執行。"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["王委員定宇：它如果要有新脅迫的話，可能會在距離或者編隊或者樣態來做調整，你們目前有掌握什麼訊息？"],["蔡局長明彥：包括像比較新的就是他們現在的聯合戰備警巡開始在夜間來進行，這已經有3次了；另外，在聯合戰備警巡的期間，他們也動用到空中的加油機來延長他們相關的空中武力、滯空的時間；另外也開始動用其他的機艦，包括登陸艦跟掃雷艦，在聯合戰備警巡的時候來加入運作，這都是今年以來新的樣態。"],["王委員定宇：所以你們有掌握以外，我們現在因應的方式是什麼？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們現在大概在因應這樣的樣態，當然國防部這邊有它的相關應處的既有機制，特別也要注意的除了剛剛講的這些樣態以外，灰色地帶的操作，包括在今年的2月，金門的翻船事件之後，他們開始派出一些公務船，有在我們的外離島的周邊水域來進行一些活動，這也是我們特別在注意的重點。"],["王委員定宇：因為布林肯專程跑了中國，中國也不鋪紅地毯，然後氣氛其實談得滿僵的，但布林肯去就把該說的話講，他講了四大類的話，其中有一類就是不要在520前在臺海搞事，所以顯示美國的情報單位有注意到這個事情，從俄烏戰爭到以色列那邊的事情，其實美國的情報系統，我們還要滿佩服的，它講會打就一定會打。"],["蔡局長明彥：這個部分一定要跟委員補充說明一下，美國現在對中國的政策主要是在做管理，管理雙方的紛爭，然後在管理……"],["王委員定宇：它其實是crisis management。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，然後也在管理中國的行為，它在管理中國的行為，所以我們在看他們的互動過程當中，可以把它稱為紅線外交，一直在畫紅線，告訴中國可能在哪個階段、哪個時間點不能做哪些事，把紅線畫出來……"],["王委員定宇：現在越畫越細啊！"],["蔡局長明彥：對，讓中國不要誤判，我覺得這樣的戰略訊號傳遞給北京是非常重要的，對於穩定我們臺海安全的情勢。"],["王委員定宇：有沒有可能在520前夕會產生主權臨海上的糾紛事項？"],["蔡局長明彥：對於各種可能的狀況我們都不能夠排除，要繼續注意，我剛剛在進來會議室之前，媒體朋友也在問這一點，除了520之前，也要注意到520之後，6月到11月是中共軍事演習的熱季，到時候也要注意到他們會不會用各種的藉口，透過他們例行性的軍事演習來對新政府的兩岸政策施壓，這也是我們另外觀察的重點。"],["王委員定宇：怎麼樣提升我們自己的準備，強化跟國際的合作，以及事前訊息的戳破，這個都是應處的方式。"],["蔡局長明彥：是，我也跟委員說明一下，這個部分我們跟國際友盟在國際相關情資的交流非常非常地緊密，不管是在人員情報或科技情報的部分，主要的目的就是要對中共的戰略意圖做精準的判斷，以及軍事動態會不會威脅到臺海情勢。"],["王委員定宇：現在五眼聯盟plus one是日本，然後五眼聯盟相關的訊息分享，我們臺灣情資單位其實是有共享的吧？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們跟國際友盟的合作非常地全面，當然我不方便針對特定的國家來說明現在合作的狀況。"],["王委員定宇：我最後1分鐘請教你另外一個問題，就國安局瞭解，臺企聯算是純民間組織還是中共的附隨組織？這個陸委會有定義喔！"],["蔡局長明彥：確實有注意到委員提到這個部分的觀察，也就是可能在兩岸交流過程當中，中共除了釋放一些它的政策訊息或是要不要修改國內的國安法制以外，他們也透過相關的……"],["王委員定宇：為什麼這定義很重要，你知道嗎？我這1分鐘講完，你們做適當的回應就好。臺企聯是受國臺辦業務指導跟監督管理，甚至於國臺辦的相關人都會明列他的什麼職務、什麼職務、榮譽的職務，在陸委會有沒有把臺企聯定義為中共黨政軍相關的附隨組織，這是第一件事要釐清。第二個，如果它是，它向臺灣的國會議員要求去放鬆、修改、修掉國安相關法律，這裡面有沒有法律層次的問題，我覺得是嚴肅要去面對的。交流、對話我們都不反對，臺灣也愛和平，但是和平不是把國家主權、祖產賣掉的和平，和平對侵略者來講是一個假象，對於被侵略者是一個努力捍衛的真相，所以對話OK，平等互惠OK，不講話其實也OK，但是如果在法律的層次，界定的定義就很清楚，它是不是中共黨政軍的附隨組織、有沒有接受它的授命或指導或要求去從事相關行為危及我們國家安全，它大概有幾個層次，如果它交流是要求你回家要拜拜、孝順父母，OK，不危及國家安全，沒問題。所以這幾個要件，國安局跟相關單位要釐清清楚，免得在面對中國的灰色地帶脅迫，結果我們自己的法律也灰色地帶的話，那負負不會得正的，好不好？局長，供你參考，謝謝。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。待會洪申翰委員質詢完畢以後休息5分鐘。","現在請陳冠廷委員上台質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-16","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","林楚茵","沈伯洋","王定宇","陳冠廷","洪申翰","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","黃仁","邱志偉","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，\n以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.33471875,"end":2.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.03034375,"end":4.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.89034375,"end":18.610343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.77909375,"end":22.086593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.187843750000003,"end":22.20471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.20471875,"end":24.887843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.17471875,"end":46.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.470968750000004,"end":56.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.76471875,"end":57.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.439718750000004,"end":62.687843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.227843750000005,"end":79.66409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.47471875000001,"end":81.75659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.90846875000001,"end":82.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":82.24596875,"end":105.28034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.04221875,"end":90.44721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.04971875000001,"end":96.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.06096875,"end":108.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.37284375,"end":108.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.62159375,"end":111.59159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.59159375,"end":111.65909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.65909375000001,"end":111.67596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.67596875000001,"end":111.69284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.69284375000001,"end":111.82784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.82784375000001,"end":111.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.87846875000001,"end":112.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.01346875,"end":112.04721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.04721875000001,"end":112.21596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.21596875,"end":112.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.23284375,"end":112.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.62096875,"end":112.65471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.65471875,"end":112.75596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.75596875000001,"end":112.85721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.46471875,"end":114.37596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.78096875000001,"end":119.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.89846875,"end":123.26909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.26909375000001,"end":126.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":125.26034375,"end":142.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.03534375,"end":135.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.79346875000002,"end":179.32784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.97909375,"end":143.21534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.16784375,"end":150.42096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.46784375000001,"end":175.80096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.03659375,"end":188.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.62596875,"end":195.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.18596875,"end":196.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.74284375000002,"end":223.40534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.91159375,"end":228.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.34971875000002,"end":234.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.26846875,"end":257.98221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.31909375,"end":236.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.03096875000003,"end":244.85346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.60721875000002,"end":257.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.64034375,"end":261.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.77909375,"end":277.92846875000004},{"speak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謝謝 麻煩蔡局長謝謝蔡局長好 謝謝主席 王委員早局長早我們今天這個題目其實訂的還蠻精準的三個名詞C.I.關鍵基礎設施第二個新型態威脅第三個因應這三個題目精準但是很大"},{"start":25.287,"end":42.346,"text":"那我就拿一些比較集中的部分來請教我們這幾年有沒有做什麼準備美國拜登總統在2021年5月跟7月有簽署一個行政命令要求國土安全部網路安全跟基礎設施安全局CISA針對公部門與"},{"start":47.232,"end":55.741,"text":"關鍵基礎設施工業控制系統這是指民間在應對資安攻擊要建立SOP定義跟處理方式"},{"start":56.843,"end":81.44,"text":"那我現在要先請教局長在你們定義的關鍵基礎設施是怎麼去定義它對關鍵基礎設施事實上在行政院的我們相關關鍵基礎設施安全防護的指導綱要裡面都有做完整的規定那韌性的定義以及相關後續的安全維護我們是一個正面表現的方式嗎對對都有正面表現的方式因為現在時代進步非常快"},{"start":82,"end":108.375,"text":"比如說NVIDIA的AI晶片在大概5年前其實是那個圖像晶片並沒有像現在那麼受重視可是過了3、5年團間它就進入到另外一個level或者這個Low Orbit就是那個低軌道的衛星在幾年前這個東西還不見現在因為馬斯克等等所以這個正面表列你們多久更新一次把關鍵基礎設施放在裡面對我們定期都會有開相關的一個相關的表定期是多久一次"},{"start":109.016,"end":114.043,"text":"每一年都有召開一年一次會不會太那個間隔會不會太長"},{"start":115.484,"end":140.912,"text":"對,但每一次在開會的過程當中,我們也會針對一些比較新的發展那我們現在有專責單位去收集、定義什麼叫做關鍵基礎設施嗎?這部分,行政院的國土辦這邊是負責那國土辦你現在手上有多少人力去做這個事情?報告委員,目前有24位人力,但是國土辦主要是做統合啦你其實還要指揮其他單位那剛才講一年討論一次,renew什麼叫做關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":143.124,"end":157.297,"text":"幫委員,那個政策匯報是一年一次,但是適時的時候會召開,而有相關的業務匯報由政委來做你們上次召開是什麼時候?上次是在今年的一月多一月多召開?對,副院長有指示,有指示要進行這個一月多有沒有增設?"},{"start":159.779,"end":178.731,"text":"目前沒有但是剛剛委員所提的在我們另外有一個叫做關鍵的這個科技技術裡面在相關的其他法令有些規範因為我們這邊講的是關鍵基礎設施那基礎設施裡面通常講的是有水我是建議林傑主任第一個我們現在520新的部會首長會上來"},{"start":180.1,"end":194.816,"text":"會有些新的想法是那我們常常太分散尤其講到資安啦講到灰色地帶啦或者叫Hybrid Warfare啦它會分散在很多單位我們在軍方也會看到國安局會看到你們那裡也會看到所以有時候會鬆散掉"},{"start":197.34,"end":223.021,"text":"這個東西不能掛一漏萬的那我現在請問就是說既然公司領域都有公司領域都有那美國有公布這個標準作業程序跟定義還有處理方式2021年5月跟7月後來他們就編了錢開始去做這個設施甚至於我印象是拜登總統把半導體列為關鍵基礎設施還弄了一個很大的一個很大筆金額的法案"},{"start":224.002,"end":242.217,"text":"我們台灣現在關鍵基礎設施公民營都有嗎有那民營的有哪些可以舉例出來有一些通訊的或者是廣播的通訊基地台灣那還有一些是醫療設施你的通訊是指"},{"start":243.318,"end":257.549,"text":"光線網絡啦、出地台啦、交換機啦是指什麼?就是我們講的通常是...抱歉委員因為這個個別的我可能不方便說明但是就是在通訊方面相關的射擊機密你可不可以在這邊說我尊重"},{"start":258.7,"end":283.917,"text":"比如說台積電很清楚媒體有報告他算嗎台積電是民間的業者是單純他提供的是一些服務啦所以他並不是提供給大眾的公共的我們所定義的基礎服務啦但他是重要的設施還有關鍵的這個科技的技術他算是戰略設施戰略的設施那公眾場合的電子布告板算不算這就是看他的營運的單位那通常是算的"},{"start":284.517,"end":297.072,"text":"因為我在大會問過唐鳳大概裴洛西來的那一年我們整個一萬多家的CVS就是便利商店那個報告板啪就變變掉了"},{"start":298.308,"end":321.376,"text":"這如果在天災或者面臨威脅的時候他突然間給你丟一個假訊息會形成政府跟民間的訊息被切斷或者錯誤的這個訊息導致混亂那臺灣處處都便利商店所以當那裡出現深層造假或相關的假說訊息是很危險的你們把它納入嘛就這個題目本席要問最後一題就是"},{"start":322.136,"end":337.949,"text":"那你們有公佈相關的guideline導引以及執行導引的規範包含獎勵或罰則或怎麼樣我告訴你民間該這麼做因為這屬於關鍵基礎設施屬於這個CI設施那你必須要達到這個達到這個達到那個規範"},{"start":339.83,"end":364.525,"text":"那你規範你做不到的我怎麼輔導你你該做卻不做的我該怎麼去要求你我們有沒有這個事情報告委員這個有齁在因為剛剛提的大部分都是在資通安全的這樣的領域的運用啦資通設備的一些運用所以在關鍵基礎設施的這些營運者都是資通安全管理法裡面的特定非公務機關所以他有相關的義務跟事項我希望你們準備一份你們怎麼要求"},{"start":365.365,"end":379.718,"text":"怎麼落實要求要求哪些單位該用機密就機密該可以公布就公布讓本席或本委員會看到我們才能去追蹤你每一年到底增加什麼東西啊你怎麼要求啊你懂我意思嗎那個主任先請回回到局長"},{"start":381.179,"end":395.155,"text":"520快到了齁那在520前夕包含各國情報單位都顯示說中國對台灣有相當多的做法我認為叫圖謀不軌就是不正當的做法滋擾的做法"},{"start":395.776,"end":397.497,"text":"你們掌握他的情緒到目前為止"},{"start":419.861,"end":420.842,"text":"最嚴重的他會怎麼做?"},{"start":445.008,"end":468.698,"text":"包括像比較新的就是他們現在的聯合戰備警巡開始在夜間來進行那這已經有三次了那另外在聯合戰備警巡的期間他們也動用到空中的加油機來延長他們的相關的空中的武力滯空的時間那另外也開始動用其他的機艦包括登陸艦跟掃雷艦在聯合戰備警巡的時候來加入運作那這都是今年以來新的樣態"},{"start":469.318,"end":494.595,"text":"你沒有掌握以外,我們現在因應的方式是什麼?對,我們現在大概在因應這樣的樣態當然國防部這邊有它的一個相關的應處的一個既有的一個機制那特別也要注意的,除了剛剛講的這些樣態以外灰色地帶的操作,包括在今年的2月金門的翻船事件之後他們開始派出一些公務船,有在我們的外離島的周邊水域來進行一些活動那這也是我們特別要注意的一點布林肯專程跑了中國,中國也不撲黃地毯"},{"start":496.696,"end":498.977,"text":"美國對中國政策主要是在做管理管理雙方的紛爭然後在管理"},{"start":523.291,"end":525.152,"text":"有沒有可能在520前夕會產生主權領海上的糾紛事項"},{"start":553.277,"end":576.562,"text":"那對於各種的可能的狀況我們都不能夠排除要繼續的來注意那我剛在進來會議室之前媒體朋友也在問這一點那除了520之前也要注意到520之後6月到11月是中共軍事演習的熱季那到時候也要注意到他們會用各種的藉口透過他們例行性的軍事演習來對新政府的兩岸政策施壓"},{"start":577.142,"end":577.883,"text":"現在五眼聯盟是日本"},{"start":604.82,"end":609.102,"text":"我最後一分鐘請教你另外一個問題就國安局了解臺氣聯算是純民間組織還是中共的覆水組織"},{"start":628.21,"end":628.39,"text":"台企聯"},{"start":652.441,"end":671.744,"text":"他是受國台辦業務指導跟監督管理甚至於國台辦的相關人都會名列他的什麼職務什麼職務榮譽的職務那在陸委會有沒有把台七年定義為中共黨政軍相關的覆水組織這是第一件事要釐清第二個如果他是"},{"start":672.705,"end":684.522,"text":"他向台灣的國會議員要求去放鬆修改修掉國安相關法律那這裡面有沒有法律層次問題我覺得是嚴肅要去面對的交流對話我們都不反對"},{"start":685.919,"end":708.002,"text":"台灣人也很愛和平,但和平不是把國家主權、主產賣掉的和平。和平對侵略者來講是一個假象,對於被侵略者是一個努力捍衛的真相。所以對話OK,平等互惠OK,不講話其實也OK,但是如果在法律的程式,那個界定的定義就很清楚。"},{"start":708.763,"end":733.863,"text":"他是不是中共黨政軍的覆水組織有沒有接受他的授命或指導或要求去從事相關權威脅我們國家安全他大概有幾個層次如果他交流是要求你回家要拜拜孝順父母OK不危及國家安全沒問題所以這幾個要件國安局跟相關單位要釐清清楚免得在面對中國的灰色地帶脅迫結果我們自己的法律也灰色地帶的話那"},{"start":735.625,"end":737.011,"text":"副副不會得勝的好不好 局長恭喜參考 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151938","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151938","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b0ffef6cce6c7e63faf7b9089f19fa5f77f5010e6307119194034e7fd9a14e5935ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:19:11 - 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YOU，現在變臺東ICU，我們臺東的觀光已經進入加護病房，你知道嗎？已經進入加護病房的狀態，你知道嗎？"],["周副署長廷彰：其實我們的各個管理處，目前在臺東有成立觀光圈，最近要開始的光雕音樂季，其實還滿吸引人的。"],["黃委員建賓：副署長，本席跟你講一下為什麼臺東觀光進入ICU、進入加護病房，照道理說，接下來臺東很重要的旅遊活動就是熱氣球嘉年華，以往訂房大概是八成，到目前只剩下三成，遊覽車大概掉了六、七成，有一個很大的原因就是之前發生的0403地震，地震造成的後果是民眾對於東部交通的不安全感，我相信副署長應該也有收到一些相關的陳情資料吧？"],["周副署長廷彰：跟委員說明，其實臺東熱氣球非常知名，我們也跟各個旅行社進行各市場的行銷，像易遊網現在承攬這個行程……"],["黃委員建賓：有，上個禮拜我們才和陳董事長一起開記者會。"],["周副署長廷彰：對，他們有邀請各個市場來到臺東觀賞熱氣球。"],["黃委員建賓：本席想要跟副署長提醒的是，前陣子臺東的旅遊業者才開記者會要求我們的觀光署來協助，我們常常在講你不能用臺北人的角度看地方，花東本來就是一體的。雖然這次的地震災害對臺東來講是很幸運，沒有很明顯地受到災損，可是其實它影響到的是火車鐵軌的問題，還有上個禮拜因為大雨土石流造成火車停駛，原班車遣返回去臺北，對民眾的心理其實是有影響的，這都會對臺東觀光造成很大傷害。","本席要呼籲一下，也要要求是不是可以比照2018年當時的補助方案，讓業者能夠渡過這次的難關，在自由行部分，每個房間補助1,000元；團客部分，20人以上每團獎勵8,000元，30人每團獎勵1萬5,000元，這是2018年協助觀光振興的方案，可不可以做得到？"],["周副署長廷彰：報告委員，因為這個涉及到經費的補助，不過委員的意見，我們會把它納入研議。"],["黃委員建賓：都這麼久了，為什麼本席會提這個？因為中央為了因應花蓮重建提出兩百多億的重建方案，臺東的部分你們要編列多少？"],["周副署長廷彰：其實觀光署對於臺東的觀光一直是非常支持。"],["黃委員建賓：我要問的是臺東要補助多少？"],["周副署長廷彰：跟臺東縣政府或是在地的觀光業者，我們都一起來做行銷跟推動，不管是在團體或……"],["黃委員建賓：副署長，我跟你報告，臺東這次的補助是零，200億裡面臺東補助是零，這樣是不是已經進入ICU了？"],["周副署長廷彰：其實觀光署對於臺東縣的軟硬體都非常支持。"],["黃委員建賓：所以本席才會建議比照2018年的方式來補助，從200億裡面拿一部分來協助臺東的業者，花東是一體的，花蓮不好，臺東一樣不會好，就像花蓮發生地震，臺東第一時間跑去救災，未來臺東有需要，花蓮也會第一時間過來協助我們，一樣的道理，這時候拜託中央能不能夠協助臺東縣，可以嗎？副署長，是不是可以比照2018年的補助方案？"],["周副署長廷彰：現在在推的觀光圈就是花東觀光圈，委員的提議，我們會來研議。"],["黃委員建賓：這個都是做過的案例，不用研議，趕快去做，為什麼我會提到這一塊，回到我們今天的主題。主席，請陸委會副主委。"],["主席：有請李副主委。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：副主委，為什麼我要花這麼多時間跟副署長講這麼多事情？其實臺東很單純，我們的產業也很單純，主要以農業和觀光兩個產業為主。我們也知道不是一定要靠陸客，可是以目前的消費族群來看，最大的量還是中國大陸旅客，這幾年我們確實看到整個兩岸的冰點，原本的旅遊業已經很辛苦了，國旅再發生這樣的事情是不是雪上加霜？我剛剛說臺東進入ICU，你認同嗎？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：其實各行各業都一樣。"],["黃委員建賓：我們還是希望兩岸能夠友善地來面對這些事情。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：當然，我們也在努力中。"],["黃委員建賓：我有一件事一直想要問一下副主委。"],["主席：建賓委員，我們時間已經到了。"],["黃委員建賓：好，不好意思！"],["主席：還是您要改書面？"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主席，我再用書面，我只是希望請相關單位協助臺東的相關產業。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：一定。"],["黃委員建賓：像之前臺東縣政府饒慶鈴縣長用這樣的模式讓我們的水果過去大陸，恢復鳳梨釋迦的輸出，未來其他縣市可不可以比照這樣的方法，如果在兩岸都沒有辦法談的情況下，各縣市政府可不可以用同樣的方法去大陸釋放善意，建立這樣的方式？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：因為檢驗、檢疫的問題涉及公權力……"],["黃委員建賓：觀光可不可以這樣子做？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們當然希望陸方趕快把客人送過來，這個沒有涉及公權力……"],["黃委員建賓：如果兩岸都還沒有辦法退冰的時候，各縣市政府可不可以這樣做？我們自己加油，可不可以？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：您是說去跟陸方呼籲嗎？"],["黃委員建賓：對。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：當然都可以啊！呼籲陸方趕快送陸客來。"],["黃委員建賓：如果他們願意來，陸委會也同意就對了？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們都準備好了，各縣市都OK的。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝副主委、謝謝副署長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：非常謝謝建賓委員的質詢，謝謝李副主委、副署長。","現在休息5分鐘再繼續質詢。","休息（11時27分）","繼續開會（11時34分）"],["主席：現在繼續質詢。","請許委員宇甄質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":506,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","李柏毅","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","傅崐萁","廖先翔","鄭天財Sra 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謝謝主席其實今天我們到場的官員除了我們本委員會的陸委會副主委以外好像就只有這個觀光署的副署長有到那其實今天有很多想要關於交通的問題想要請教不過因為觀光跟今天在討論的就是跟觀光有關係交通跟觀光是一體的那不過我就先就叫我們那個觀光署的副署長有請周副署長"},{"start":32.17,"end":58.571,"text":"委員好副書長好副書長那個520只剩下19天了那馬上就新的團隊要上任那我們的賴副總統也即將要成為我們的下一任的新的總統那他在參選總統的時候有提出過觀光產業的六大具體做法這個一定是未來我們交通部非常重要的政策之一那我想請教副書長那個六大政策是哪六大政策"},{"start":61.679,"end":71.466,"text":"這個賴副總統觀光的一個白皮書那我目前都會在引領相關的一個...副總長,我在第一次質詢的時候就已經有洩體的落行這次你又不記起來,這樣會否然呢?"},{"start":76.298,"end":101.115,"text":"這個重要政策我聽謝提庫給你這樣本期在第二次質詢就有講到不要大面相那時候答不出來現在你還沒辦法忙答出來其實就是觀光立國然後落實相關的觀光產業及把這些觀光產業的一個在地化還有吸引國際的觀光客各個市場我們要做吸引這個我們目前都在林立當中"},{"start":102.075,"end":126.188,"text":"謝謝部長回答得非常好為什麼我會這樣說其實我們裡面有提到一個就是部部有觀光各地有觀光這件事這是很好的願景那期許我們未來各部會都要推動觀光讓觀光產業能夠打造當台灣變成觀光大國這件事情不過本席認為這一點有點困難應該做不到為什麼這樣講"},{"start":131.573,"end":157.667,"text":"你知道台東有一個很有名的一個旅遊景點在池上還有一個很漂亮的池上的那個稻米的大稻有一棵樹有一個很帥的男生坐在樹下喝茶那個叫金城武,後來有一棵樹叫金城武樹嘛是,很知名的景點台東ICU嘛對不對,現在變成台東ICU我們今天台東的觀光業要給我賠房了你知道嗎?已經進入加密賓館的狀態你知道嗎?"},{"start":160.682,"end":187.654,"text":"其實我們的各個管理處目前在臺東有成立這個觀光圈那最近要開始的這個觀光行業業績其實還蠻吸引人的是 副市長本席跟你講一下為什麼臺東觀光進入ICU進入教育病房照道理說臺東在暑假熱氣球因為接下來臺東很重要一個旅遊的活動就是熱氣球嘉年華那以往的病房大概是八層到目前只剩下三層"},{"start":188.994,"end":191.716,"text":"地震造成的後果是民眾對於東部交通的不安全感"},{"start":205.565,"end":225.603,"text":"這個部分我相信副市長應該也有收到相關的一些澄清的資料嗎?是,我剛剛有做一個說明,這個臺東熱氣球其實非常知名,那我們也跟各個旅行社來做一個各市場的行銷,對,所以像那個義油網他現在承攬這個這樣的一個有啦,上個禮拜我們只能跟陳董事長一起開記者會而已啊。對對對,所以他們有邀請各個市場來到這個臺灣,臺東來觀賞熱氣球。"},{"start":229.266,"end":246.382,"text":"副長本席想要提醒的是說在前陣子臺東的旅遊業者才開記者會要求我們的觀光署來協助因為我們常常在講就是你不能用臺北人的角度在看地方花東本來就是一地的嘛"},{"start":247.083,"end":271.98,"text":"雖然這次地震災害對台東來講是很幸運沒有很明顯的受到災損可是其實它影響到的是像是火車、鐵軌的問題還有上個禮拜因為大雨土石流造成火車停駛然後原班車將像遣返一樣回去台北那個對民眾的心理其實是有影響的這個都是會對台東的觀光造成很大的傷害"},{"start":273.761,"end":295.831,"text":"這邊我們本是要呼籲一下也要要求我們是可以比照當時2018年的補助方案讓業者能夠渡過這次的難關我們每個房間補助1000塊在自由行的部分那團客的話我們鼓勵20人以上每團獎勵800030人每團獎勵15000這個是在2018年做的整個協助我們觀光振興的一個方案這個是可不可以做得到"},{"start":297.181,"end":307.18,"text":"報告委員因為這個涉及到經費的補助委員的意見我們會把它納入研議不是啊這個都這麼久了然後為什麼本席會提這個呢因為"},{"start":309.008,"end":335.377,"text":"這方提出說為了因應整個花蓮的這個重建提出了200多億的重建方案,對吧?阿副市長,台東你報分你要變多少?其實觀光署對於臺東的觀光一直是非常的支持我就問啦,我就問你台東有多少多少啦就是跟台東縣政府或者是說在地的觀光業者我們都一起來做一個行銷跟推動副市長我跟你報告啦,副市長我跟你報告啦臺東這次補助是零啦200億裡面臺東補助是零啦"},{"start":341.111,"end":342.293,"text":"其實我們觀光署對於台東縣的軟硬體其實都非常的支持"},{"start":349.065,"end":371.973,"text":"所以本席才建議就比照2018年的時候的方式來補助你200億裡面拿一部分來協助台東的業者花東是一體的啦花東是一體的花蓮不好台東一樣不會好就像花蓮發生地震台東第一時間跑去救災未來台東有需要花蓮也第一時間過來協助我們一樣的道理我們這時候就是拜託中央能不能夠來協助台東縣這樣可以嗎"},{"start":376.062,"end":378.123,"text":"主席有請李副主委"},{"start":403.514,"end":427.292,"text":"副主委,為什麼要花這麼多時間跟副主長講這麼多的事情?其實台中很單純,我們的商業也很單純,就是主要以農業跟觀光兩個產業嘛。那我們也知道說,當然我們不是說一定要靠陸客,可是以目前來看,最大的量還是在中國大陸的旅客,這個消費族群來說。那這幾年確實我們看到整個兩岸的冰點,"},{"start":429.614,"end":429.634,"text":"黃建賓"},{"start":452.386,"end":476.617,"text":"我有一件事想要問一下副主委啦好不好意思好謝謝主席我在用書面我只是希望請我們相關單位來協助我們臺東的相關的產業那未來如果說像之前水果臺東縣臺東縣政府可以用我們的勞欠影信黨用這樣的模式過去大陸然後讓他恢復"},{"start":478.017,"end":486.143,"text":"關光因為當然去希望陸方趕快把客人送過來這個沒有涉及公理我說如果今天兩岸都還沒辦法破冰的時候各縣市政府可不可以這樣做我們自己加油可不可以"},{"start":507.956,"end":521.235,"text":"您是說去跟陸方呼籲嗎?當然都可以啊。呼籲陸方趕快放陸客來。如果他們願意來,陸委會怎麼也同意就對了?我們都準備好了,各縣市都OK的。謝謝副主委、謝謝副處長、謝謝主席。"}]}},{"id":"151937","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151937","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bf3a178478a476539af7b9089f19fa5f77f5010e6307119196a34765b9d30d1a85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:12:32 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10:18:54","影片長度":"00:06:22","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部、交通部、大陸委員會、財團法人海峽交流基金會、原住民族委員會就「針對陸方開放大陸觀光客來台具體回應及作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":382,"end_time":"2024-05-01T10:18:54+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T10:12:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":505,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時12分）好，謝謝主席，請副主委。"],["主席：請李副主委。"],["黃委員捷：副主委好。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：黃委員好。"],["黃委員捷：我沒有想到過了兩個月，我們又在這裡討論同一個題目。因為這個題目兩個月來其實已經講很多了，我覺得副主委是不是再次說明清楚，2019年中國到底片面做了什麼事情，所以我們才變成現在不對等的情況？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：過去兩邊的旅客都是有來有往，2019年，陸方就說，基於兩岸關係的考量，所以就把自由行給關掉了，然後團客也慢慢減少，因為對於他們的組團社，一般而言政府是可以發揮一些影響，所以2019年的時候，其實團客也慢慢在變少，疫情之後它就整個都關掉了。當然，疫情之後我們也就恢復兩邊的往來，所以我們疫情之後對於國人到大陸去並沒有做特別的限制。對於我們組團社去的部分，它們希望是一個對等的方式，也就是說，他們的組團社可以帶團體的客人到臺灣的時候，我們再讓我們的組團社可以帶我們的團體客人到大陸去，這樣的一個規劃在8月24日我們就主動地來做宣布，等於遞出一個所謂的善意。這件事情到後來對方就一直在講說，對於我們去的部分，它要我們先有一些承諾，所以我們才會在去年大概11月的時候，先釋放一個訊息說：好，我們會在3月1日開始讓我們的組團社也可以去。可是故事就是到了今年1月……"],["黃委員捷：對，就到了這裡。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：就是剛剛其他委員也有提到，到了1月的時候，它還是不願意放它的團體客人來，甚至還有很多、很多的像M503航線的啟動，還有很多、很多像軍機這些……"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：所以我們才會從6月1日以後，把這個組團赴陸暫停。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝副主委的說明。我相信這個故事已經非常清楚了，不管是它的前因後果，整個事情的脈絡其實就是這樣，就是2019年中國片面地改變現狀，然後中斷了中國的客人來臺，不管是自由行還是團客，都是這樣！臺灣其實始終都是秉持著善意，我們認為只要對等，就來交流，本來就是有來有往，本來就是禮尚往來，而且臺灣人是非常善良的喔！我們的橄欖枝從來都沒有停過喔！我們都準備好了，就是你開放我就開放，你怎麼開放我就怎麼開放，甚至到了2023年，臺灣去中國的客人是176萬人，中國來臺灣的只有22萬人，這是一個非常嚴重的差異，已經是一個非常不對等的狀況，甚至我們今年3到5月也有10萬人的團客可以到中國了，這對臺灣的觀光業當然非常不公平啊！臺灣的觀光業就想說，我們的客人都到你們那裡去了，結果你們都不來，導致臺灣的觀光業不管是旅宿業、餐飲業都想說，這樣對我們真的好嗎？","再來就是要講到這次的新的提案，就是中國說福建要開放到馬祖，請問這樣最高峰是多少人啊？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：疫情前的話是6,500。"],["黃委員捷：講出來相信副主委自己也很想笑。6,500人次！是啊！而且是最高只有這樣子的人次喔！所以我覺得，我不知道陸委會是怎麼看啦！但是我看到這樣一個釋出的善意，我會覺得：這是一個笑話嗎？怎麼會有點丟臉的感覺？那你福建來馬祖，是不是我們也對等地開放馬祖到福建，這樣就好了呢？因為他們也沒有說福建可以到金門，也沒有說福建可以到花蓮，甚至也沒有說福建可以到澎湖嘛！甚至連傅崐萁總召自己去中國討的，他們說要幫花蓮帶來觀光，結果連花蓮都沒有爭取到耶！"],["李副主任委員麗珍：因為一直到5月底，我們組團社去是沒有限區域的啦！到5月底都還是這樣。6月1日以後要不要做調整？當然，委員這個建議我們會做個考量。"],["黃委員捷：好啊，我的建議就是，我們就是很對等啦！我們就是非常善良，然後我們都是保持著這種投桃報李的心情……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：對，因為我們也沒有政策急轉彎，說從現在……"],["黃委員捷：對啊！我們一直都是這樣，所以就是如果好啊，你福建來馬祖，那我們馬祖也去福建啊！這就是可以互相、相當……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：其實委員的意見我們會納入……"],["黃委員捷：然後如果他們願意再加開金門、願意再加開花蓮、願意再加開澎湖，好啊，我們這邊大家也很願意來交流嘛！是這樣！我們始終都是秉持著善意，然後也都希望對等地來交流，完全沒有任何的偏見。","最後我還是要講一下，我想問一下這一趟我們這17位同仁到了中國，回來之後有沒有跟陸委會遊說要求開放平潭的直航？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：目前沒有接到任何……"],["黃委員捷：我為什麼會這樣問呢？是因為……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：只有看到記者會的訊息。"],["黃委員捷：這一趟如果陸委會有接到這樣的消息，就是如果有立委來跟你們遊說相關的事情，是有可能違反反滲透法的，如果有這樣的情事，陸委會一定要跟大家說，好不好？因為這個是非常、非常嚴重的。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：相關的法令我們一定會遵守。"],["黃委員捷：沒有錯，反滲透法請大家都來遵守，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃捷委員的質詢，謝謝；謝謝李副主委。","繼續請黃建賓委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":506,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","李柏毅","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","傅崐萁","廖先翔","鄭天財Sra 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到5月底都還是這樣那6月1號以後要不要做調整當然委員這個建議我們會做個考量好啊我的建議就是說我們就是很對等啦我們本來都是我們就是非常善良然後我們都是保持著這種頭頭暴力的心情"},{"start":310.067,"end":334.65,"text":"對阿,我們一直都是這樣,所以就是如果好阿,你福建來馬祖,那我們馬祖也去福建阿,就是這樣子就是可以相當,然後如果你們願意再加開金門,願意再加開花蓮,願意再加開澎湖,好阿,那我們這邊的大家也很願意來交流嘛,是這樣,我們始終都是秉持著善意,然後也都希望對等的來交流,完全沒有任何的偏見。"},{"start":335.811,"end":339.573,"text":"那我想說最後還是要講一下說我想問一下我們這一趟這17位同仁到了中國回來之後有沒有跟陸委會來遊說要求開放平台的執行啊目前沒有沒有這個接到為什麼會這樣問呢只有看到記者會的訊息"},{"start":358.723,"end":358.903,"text":"黃捷委員"}]}},{"id":"151936","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151936","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bc23594d0e57f7127af7b9089f19fa5f77f5010e6307119191e9d41fe4acbdea15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:05:08 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這個謝謝主席齁 這個陸委會副主委有請有請這個李副主委 謝謝交通部也一起好不好 交通部好 我們有請周副署長"},{"start":27.886,"end":53.26,"text":"好 謝謝這個現在我們這個當初有這個禁團禁團令就團客赴陸暫時暫緩開放這件事情當初2月7號的時候我們也曾經在這地方做過討論那當初交通部有講說有幾個問題第一個就是陸客還沒有旅行團還沒有來做開放第二個就是說M503的一個爭議第三個就是說整體情勢不利國家利益最後還有反間諜法這些東西請問交通部觀光署這些因素到目前為止有沒有改變"},{"start":55.478,"end":73.138,"text":"目前有更惡化還是我是問觀光署長就與交通部的部分是沒有改變與交通部的部分是沒有改變那請問觀光署這出遊的人身風險是要自行評估的事項還是需要政府管制的事項"},{"start":77.148,"end":96.895,"text":"報告委員如果說是自由行的話那可能就要自己去要注意各種的一個安全因素那如果說團體旅遊他有相關的一個保險的一個機制有保險的機制好沒關係這個東西答詢做一個參考因為今天重點其實也不是在觀光署我現在來問這個陸委會的副主委"},{"start":97.635,"end":114.396,"text":"這法律上有個概念叫做同時履行抗辯也就是說簡單來說呢就是說雙方的這個契約一方位於他方為對待己父之前可以拒絕提出自己己父的權利這個法律用語聽起來很尖澀但是用簡單的生活用語來講就叫做一手交錢一手交貨"},{"start":115.257,"end":144.258,"text":"副主委了解這個概念嗎?也就是說買賣雙方對不對其實都可以主張一手交錢一手交貨可是實務上會發生什麼事?就我今天要去買早餐的時候要嘛他先把早餐送上來嘛要嘛我先買單先付錢他再準備早餐對不對不管怎麼樣都不太可能同時嘛錢出去早餐就來不太容易做到 對不對所以說實務上在處理這件事情的時候很難所謂的同時履行一定要有一方先做嘛好先做所以其實也是要按照這個社會脈絡一個互信基礎來做處理嘛 對不對副主委同意這樣的說法嗎?"},{"start":145.986,"end":159.603,"text":"呃是是好那現在齁我們現在討論這個團客的這個問題嘛你說按照理論上的自由市場是不是應該大家全部開放對不對理論上從自由市場的角度"},{"start":161.371,"end":164.413,"text":"對於每個國家對於自己旅行社管理是有他自己的權限"},{"start":176.878,"end":196.736,"text":"我們要一步到位達到那個完全互相開放客觀上是有困難的就像我講的沒有辦法突然之間達成這樣的問題那尤其是跟中國大陸大家的關係是非常敏感的特別在觀光管道暢通的情況之下大概也很難一步到位說兩邊一起講好然後一起達成但因為這個最近4月28號有釋出一部分的善意"},{"start":197.256,"end":220.419,"text":"即便陸委會現在我剛剛聽你對回答其他委員的詢問的時候你當然會覺得說從我們的官方的角度來看這個的這個讓步跟這個讓利其實是很小的嘛對不對但是算不算一點點善意我沒有說很小我是說跟我們差太多了跟差太多就不如預期啦是那你們現在打算怎麼樣回應這件事情"},{"start":221.739,"end":246.037,"text":"我們現在就是因為跟我們原來的規劃差太多了然後也需要有一些事情要進一步去釐清包括說他說要率先開放馬祖那所謂率先是指說先放馬祖後面還有金門還是說還有自由行等等那這個我們要進一步去釐清然後因為這個會涉及到我們接待的一些準備"},{"start":247.298,"end":273.726,"text":"好 那所以這個我們還在演繹當中我跟你講過去我們在討論的時候我們都討論所謂的同時開放也就是說同時履行那如果會講說你沒開我當然不能開嘛 對不對就陷入我剛剛講那個一手交錢一手交貨的僵局那能夠務實解決這件事情的方法是從小的地方先開始一點點善意換一點點善意開始有一點點互信基礎之後慢慢慢慢的來逐步開放這個我們願意尊重政府的做法但是不能沒有回應嘛好 現在就是說好像"},{"start":274.566,"end":275.987,"text":"這涉及到很多部會的選擇 大家都在跨部會的研究當中"},{"start":293.598,"end":314.02,"text":"副主委你這樣回答當然從站在你這個陸委會的本位啦你說啊我有好多機關對不對這些機關跟我一樣大我也要尊重他們的意見啊等等這當然從你的本位你要這樣回答我不會太意外啊但其實剛剛很多委員其實也關心嘛因為人家如果有機會來 對不對來是我們的觀光業是有商機的嘛而我們的政府機關在處理這種事情的時候如果他沒有明確的期程"},{"start":314.781,"end":340.396,"text":"然後如果沒有一個這個我要加速這個決心的時候那對觀光業來講當然就是打擊嘛就是負面的消息對不對因為簡單來講所以我們今天要的是有沒有明確的基礎簡單來講我們剛剛講到說就是我們有關小三通或是團客到台灣我們都做好準備了所以陸方現在放馬祖所以馬祖的人要到福建人要到馬祖旅遊這個沒有問題這個也不用回應這一定是可以做的對"},{"start":340.836,"end":364.329,"text":"因為他現在是等於是他片面開放,所以我講這個可以實現的,但是因為現在各界要陸委會回應的不是只有福建居民到馬祖這件事情能不能實現,還有很多的還有後面的事情,還有很多要我們回應,這個就要進一步的去研議他現在說我先開放一部分,但是他也提了要求,如果這個海峽可以復航,我可以再放一些人進來,對不對"},{"start":365.109,"end":365.249,"text":"我的意思是說"},{"start":391.494,"end":414.976,"text":"福建居民到馬祖的部分我現在就可以跟委員報告就一定可以做嘛因為我們說我們準備好了但是他還有其他的其他的要求嘛我現在就要問喔再一分鐘現在他們現在來不管你講說可能福建的量體不是那麼大或者說他甚至來馬祖那只是一點點意思而已但是都沒有要求我們要馬上開放嘛對不對"},{"start":415.797,"end":432.755,"text":"所以其實還沒有走到那個互相開放的一個程度對不對所以相對來講你可以不用透過我們的旅行團要過去的這樣子的強度去做回應嘛那剛剛也有委員有問我覺得不是沒有道理你選福建、台灣會不會你一審對這個台灣我們又被矮化那我覺得陸委會我們的官方我們可以提條件啦"},{"start":433.456,"end":449.97,"text":"我們也可以提條件啊就我們不反對民進黨政府領導的官方也跟中國大陸做合理的談判跟交流嘛我們的意見是都要納入考量是如果你覺得說欸只開放福建不夠以至於我沒辦法換那開放多少才夠三個省五個省作為階段性的配套可不可以討論可不可以思考"},{"start":451.678,"end":456.203,"text":"今天是星期三那幾天的時間我覺得我們對這件事情其實是非常慎重兩岸的事情我們是很慎重所以我們正在研議當中我覺得今天再透過這個詢答我們就做幾個提醒"},{"start":468.899,"end":488.778,"text":"第一個說這是有機會可以做互相的善意堆疊希望陸委會可以把握這個機會第二個我贊成就民進黨政府也提相應的條件他只要能夠談即便國民黨民進黨一直以來很大的落差但是如果可以談因為基於台灣觀光業的發展這個把它變成民生的問題你可以大膽的提出你的條件然後試著來做交流我想我們不會反對這件事情"},{"start":490.319,"end":501.296,"text":"那第三個就是時間要明確啦如果他的門檻已經比過去低很多的時候我們是希望政府有一個明確的時間讓觀光業者可以有所預期也有所準備好不好這三個目標希望部委會可以聽得進去謝謝謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢也謝謝署長"}]}},{"id":"151934","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151934","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bc1ef714fa1ee742eaf7b9089f19fa5f77f5010e630711919b4a53015686257145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李柏毅","委員發言時間":"09:50:15 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所以我寧可相信他是因為這一次因為我們國民黨黨團有十多位委員去到中國大陸遞出感染資所以給我們一個福建省的這個旅遊團"},{"start":155.992,"end":156.132,"text":"李柏毅"},{"start":181.108,"end":188.576,"text":"2023年以去年來講的話我們台灣去到中國旅遊的總人數這個要請觀光署這邊來做回應176萬那對方來22萬為什麼那麼少觀光署副署長請你回應"},{"start":200.75,"end":214.871,"text":"我想這個2023附入176萬就是包含所有人去到大陸我們去的嘛我們去176萬那為什麼他們來那麼少那因為其實台灣對於去大陸的自由行其實以前一直都沒有進過我們是開放的對不對沒有進過那為什麼他們只有22萬來"},{"start":218.018,"end":238.415,"text":"因為他們沒有放那個自由行也沒有放團體旅客所以是中國大陸方面他們限制他們的人來台灣對不對就是旅遊的部分這個是不對等的對不對因為以2019年那大陸的入客來台灣的話是有這個兩百多萬對兩百七十"},{"start":239.334,"end":263.222,"text":"所以疫情之後他開放了他到其他國家旅遊但是唯獨138個國家裡面沒有包含台灣他還限制這個他們的國人來到台灣旅遊是中國方面限制而不是台灣限制他們進來對不對我們沒有限制我們就是主動說我們做好準備了歡迎你開放入客來"},{"start":264.102,"end":287.404,"text":"所以我們今天就是這個目的其實要跟國人講得很清楚第一個我們沒有限制他們來第二個團客的部分其實目前是他們在限制但是我們都已經準備好了這跟我們預設的不一樣啊我們也以為經過這個交流之後我們也要跟這個副總召拍拍手結果"},{"start":288.84,"end":309.628,"text":"來的是開放這個去馬祖的自由行一年6500個人的自由行第二個用區域用福建省來跟台灣來對等要開放福建人組團用平潭來跟台灣來做這個團客的這個旅遊"},{"start":311.409,"end":335.64,"text":"現在的狀況是這樣對不對從對方宣布的訊息可以這樣解讀是 謝謝所以針對這一個不對等的條件的宣布雖然有一點點我們還是覺得很好對馬祖這邊很好但是對於這種不對等的把福建跟台灣想要畫上對等的這個"},{"start":336.68,"end":337.001,"text":"我們會堅持平等互惠這個原則"}]}},{"id":"151933","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151933","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b33fc71bc3925953eaf7b9089f19fa5f77f5010e630711919a711fa33d5d0e6b05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"09:43:27 - 09:49:53","影片長度":"00:06:26","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部、交通部、大陸委員會、財團法人海峽交流基金會、原住民族委員會就「針對陸方開放大陸觀光客來台具體回應及作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":386,"end_time":"2024-05-01T09:49:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T09:43:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":264,"blocks":[["張委員宏陸：（9時43分）我請李副主委。"],["主席：李副主委。"],["張委員宏陸：還有觀光署的周副署長。"],["主席：還有周副署長。"],["張委員宏陸：副主委跟副署長，我想先請問一下，臺灣是不是一個主權獨立──我們有自己的人民、政府、主權的一個政府？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是。"],["張委員宏陸：是一個政治實體對不對？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有錯，那中國是不是也是一個？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：國際上都這麼認定。"],["張委員宏陸：對，我們就撇開政治，如果這兩個都是一個政治實體，我們就像在商業的談判一樣，互相不管你公司大或我公司小，要合作、要共融，是不是要對互相的條件能夠接受，商業才可以做？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：對，要平等互惠。"],["張委員宏陸：對，平等、互惠，條件都要這樣才可以繼續往下嘛！對不對？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是。"],["張委員宏陸：好，所以我請問一下我們臺灣目前的政策跟立場，我們要不要中國的團客來臺灣？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們當然是歡迎全世界的客人都到臺灣來，包括中國大陸的客人。"],["張委員宏陸：所以簡單說一句，我們準備好了，只要你中國說你的團客可以來，我們馬上就可以接待了，馬上就可以處理了。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：對，我們都準備好了。"],["張委員宏陸：是不是這樣？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是，我們在去年的8月24號公布那個方案之後，就是主動地釋出善意說我們都準備好了，在9月底的時候，我們全部相關單位的工作都做好了。"],["張委員宏陸：副署長，是不是這樣？"],["周副署長廷彰：是，報告委員，我想我們在112年的9月針對導遊跟領隊，不管是……"],["張委員宏陸：回答重點就好了。"],["周副署長廷彰：就是已經完成相關的訓練，都已經訓練完成，比如說像緊急通報的窗口，或者是旅行社資訊的更新，我們在去年9月已經完成。"],["張委員宏陸：對，所以現在陸委會跟交通部已經很明確地在立法院講，我們臺灣的立場，我們就是都準備好了，只要你中國開放，我們馬上就可以接待了，對不對？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：對。"],["張委員宏陸：所以我們的立場是歡迎中國的團客來臺灣對不對？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：對。"],["張委員宏陸：沒錯嘛！現在的問題是中國沒有開放，是不是這樣？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：一直以來都是這樣，最近有縮了一個小口，就開了一個馬祖。"],["張委員宏陸：那個6,500個人有開跟沒開一樣啊，對不對？你去人家一間大餐廳，只給人家要一杯白開水，這樣的餐廳你要開嗎？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：有任何對方的回應，我們都是樂見。"],["張委員宏陸：樂見是一件事情，賠錢的生意誰要做？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：跟我們原來預期的、跟我們原來希望的差太多了。"],["張委員宏陸：我只有一個，所以我剛剛的前提就是說要平等互惠，他們如果開放多少，我們是不是相對開放多少？這個應該不會有任何牴觸吧？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：不會，因為剛剛很多位委員也提到就是說我們要同時兼顧outbound跟inbound業者他們的工作權益。"],["張委員宏陸：這當然啦！"],["李副主任委員麗珍：要一起考量。"],["張委員宏陸：inbound的業者……"],["李副主任委員麗珍：尤其inbound是我們政府特別要去照顧的。"],["張委員宏陸：對啊！inbound很多啊！我們臺灣的民宿什麼，這些就是inbound啊，我們的餐廳什麼都是啊！對不對？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：飯店、餐廳、導遊、遊樂區還有遊覽車……"],["張委員宏陸：不只啦！連路邊的路邊攤也是inbound啊！"],["李副主任委員麗珍：對，所以inbound才是我們的重點。"],["張委員宏陸：不，我覺得inbound、outbound都是重點，你這種說法我也不同意。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：當然。"],["張委員宏陸：都是重點，只是說一個國家跟國家對等的談判，你開放多少、我開放多少，我覺得這個是不是一個最基本的原則？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！這個原則是確定的嘛！所以我就覺得說啦，其實你們要說一句：我們沒有阻擋陸客來臺灣，我們沒有阻擋，是他們還沒開放。我做這個結論對不對？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：正確。"],["張委員宏陸：正確嘛！對不對？所以就是要雙方去溝通嘛！對不對？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們溝通其實都有持續在進行中。"],["張委員宏陸：當然我知道你們都有在持續進行中，只是現在還沒有嘛！這次開放了馬祖，我們開放馬祖，我們不反對啊，我們當然……對啊，慢慢地都來啊！全臺灣都來啊！我覺得這個才是我們的目標嘛！"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是，我們都準備好了。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！所以我覺得很簡單嘛！要跟外界說我們都準備好了，我們的態度是希望你來，是中國自己設限不讓他來的嘛！"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是，沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：對不對？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：對，是陸方在設限。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有錯嘛！對不對？所以我覺得這是一個很簡單的要跟大家說清楚，其實這個問題沒有那麼複雜啦，我們臺灣就是已經敞開大門了，是你中國自己把門關起來的，你自己現在只開放一個小小的馬祖而已，是不是這樣？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：沒錯。"],["張委員宏陸：對嘛！所以要說清楚嘛！讓臺灣的人都知道嘛！也要讓全世界都知道嘛！對不對？中國是用這個當成一個手段，對不對？我們臺灣其實沒有這麼多政治，是你自己不開放。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：我們還是期待對方趕快開放。"],["張委員宏陸：你期待它開放是一件事嘛，事實是它自己還沒開放，這個你講清楚就好啦，是不是應該這樣？"],["李副主任委員麗珍：是。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有錯吧！副署長？"],["周副署長廷彰：是，沒有錯。"],["張委員宏陸：沒有錯嘛！好，謝謝。"],["李副主任委員麗珍：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝張宏陸委員。副署長也別忘記，你們準備5月份要開放的，後來是你們把它取消了，所以才有很多人……這一點怎麼都不講？是不是？","繼續我們請李柏毅委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":506,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","李柏毅","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","傅崐萁","廖先翔","鄭天財Sra 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包委員那我想我們在112年的9月針對這個導遊跟領隊不管是要副陸委員回答重點就好了就是已經完成相關的訓練都已經訓練完成那比如說像那個緊急通報的這個窗口或者是說旅行社的這樣的資訊的更新我們在7年9月已經完成對 所以現在陸委會跟"},{"start":139.193,"end":165.259,"text":"交通部已經很明確的在立法院講我們台灣的立場我們就是都準備好了只要你中國開放我們馬上就可以接待了對不對對所以我們的立場是歡迎中國的團客來台灣對不對對沒錯嘛是現在的問題是中國沒有開放是不是這樣"},{"start":167.123,"end":191.068,"text":"一直以來都是這樣那最近有說了一個小口就開了一個大主把那個6500個人這個有開跟沒開一樣阿對不對你去人家一間大餐廳阿只給人家要一杯白開水阿你要這樣的餐廳你要開嗎有任何對方的回應我們都是樂見"},{"start":194.976,"end":212.427,"text":"若見是一件事情若見的勝利是甚麼跟我們原來預期的跟我們原來希望的差太多了我只有一個所以我剛剛的前提就是說要平等互惠他們如果開放多少我們是不是相對開放多少"},{"start":216.012,"end":232.501,"text":"這個應該不會有任何抵觸吧?不會,因為剛剛很多衛委員也提到就是說我們要同時兼顧凹棒跟硬棒業者他們的工作權益這當然啦!要一起考量,尤其是這個硬棒特別是我們政府要去照顧"},{"start":233.261,"end":259.089,"text":"英磅很多啊,我們台灣的民宿什麼這些就是英磅啊,我們的餐廳什麼都是啊,對不對?餐廳、餐廳、導遊、遊樂區,還有遊覽車不只啦,連路邊的路邊攤也是英磅啊,對不對?英磅才是我們的重點不不不,我覺得英磅奧磅都是重點,你這種說法我也不同意,這個都是重點只是說我說,一個國家跟國家"},{"start":260.289,"end":287.697,"text":"對等的談判你開放多少我開放多少我覺得這個是不是一個最基本的原則是對嘛這個原則是確定的嘛是所以我就覺得說啦其實你們要說一句我們沒有阻擋陸客來台灣沒錯我們沒有阻擋是他們還沒開放是我做這個結論是對不對正確正確嘛對不對那所以這次要雙方去溝通嘛對不對"},{"start":289.426,"end":311.64,"text":"我們溝通其實持續都有在進行中當然我知道你們都有在持續進行中只是現在還沒有只是開放了這一次開放了馬祖我們開放馬祖我們不反對我們當然對啊慢慢的都來全台灣都來我覺得這個才是我們的目標是我們都準備好了"},{"start":312.04,"end":324.957,"text":"對嘛,所以我覺得很簡單嘛,要跟外界說我們都準備好了,我們就是,我們的態度是希望你來,是你自己,是中國自己設限不讓他來的嘛,對不對?對,是陸方在設限"},{"start":329.102,"end":347.984,"text":"沒有錯嘛 對不對所以我覺得這個是一個很簡單的要跟大家說清楚其實這個問題沒有那麼複雜啦沒有那麼複雜啦我們台灣就是已經敞開大門了是你中國自己把門關起來的你自己現在只開放一個小小的馬祖而已是不是這樣沒錯"},{"start":349.265,"end":364.97,"text":"對嘛 阿所以跟 要跟 要說清楚嘛 要讓台灣的人都知道嘛 要讓全世界都知道嘛 對不對中國是用這個當成一個手段 對不對 那 我們台灣其實沒有這麼多政治 是你自己不開放"},{"start":365.851,"end":365.871,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"151932","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151932","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b4feae0e6a08eb2b8af7b9089f19fa5f77f5010e630711919fe6342ee0b0898265ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"09:32:47 - 09:42:43","影片長度":"00:09:56","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部、交通部、大陸委員會、財團法人海峽交流基金會、原住民族委員會就「針對陸方開放大陸觀光客來台具體回應及作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":596,"end_time":"2024-05-01T09:42:43+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T09:32:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":212,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（9時32分）謝謝主席，我們請邱主委，再請經濟處處長，還有海基會的副秘書長。"],["主席：請邱主委、請經濟處的葉處長，還有海基會的蔡副秘書長。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：謝謝主委，這是我們最後一次在這邊溝通交流。"],["邱主任委員太三：不會啦！我如果有需要，還是會去拜訪你啦！"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。我今天也理解你在9點半以後要離開嘛！那麼我現在就幾個問題來請教你，主計總處在4月29號公布了110年家庭財富分配統計，它統計全臺灣家庭貧富之間的差距已經達到66.9倍，差距之大超乎想像。主計總處強調，這個是所謂的高度自由經濟發展的必然結果，在場的三位，你們同意嗎？請問主委。"],["邱主任委員太三：我想貧富差距確實是各國都關注的……"],["高金委員素梅：它說這是高度自由經濟發展的必然結果。"],["邱主任委員太三：我們大概可以看出幾個趨勢，大概資本主義國家的貧富差距，一定比社會主義國家還高。第二個，全球化的結果恐怕這個必然會這樣……"],["高金委員素梅：所以你是同意它的說法嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，這個基本上必然會加劇，但是各國採取的政策是不是有效或是一樣，我不曉得。"],["高金委員素梅：好的，有政策，很好。"],["邱主任委員太三：我們當然可以比較全球化的結果，大概資本主義發達的國家其差距就愈大。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝主委，你倒是提到了很重要的問題。我不同意這是高度自由經濟發展的必然結果，你剛剛談到「政策」，是的，我想請問一下主委，您一個月的薪資是多少？這是公開的嘛！20到25萬之間，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：大概20萬左右，加一個部長加給3萬9，感覺是23萬。"],["高金委員素梅：對，所以落在20到25萬當中嘛！"],["邱主任委員太三：對，在25萬以內。"],["高金委員素梅：您認為你們家的開銷夠嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：當然坦白講，每一個人的家庭情況不一定一樣。"],["高金委員素梅：對你來說呢？"],["邱主任委員太三：像我這麼節儉的人，當然是夠啦！但是重點在後面……"],["高金委員素梅：好。"],["邱主任委員太三：我當律師的時候大概都是這個的好幾倍。"],["高金委員素梅：20到23萬之間，因為你節儉所以夠。所以您不像主計總處公布排名後20%的家庭，它的平均負債是405萬，所以我完全不同意主計總處所說的這種說法。臺灣社會的貧富不均，真的不是什麼必然的結果，它根本就是人為政策的惡果。我舉一個，以臺灣半導體的產業來講，今年他們的產值達到了新臺幣5兆，政府對這個半導體產業要電給電、要水給水、要地給地，他們稅金還特別地優惠，而這個產業的從業人員有32萬人，他們的平均收入是208萬元，政府給了他們所有的政策優惠，但是獲利的80%卻是被外資拿走了。","好，我們再回頭來看一下我們臺灣的觀光產業，按照2023年的產值，我們是7,500億，然後根據交通部觀光局的統計，觀光業的從業人力2023年是22萬4,618人，副署長，對吧？麻煩你也上台一下，謝謝。這項產業大部分都是服務業，就是剛剛麥玉珍講到的，最基層也有這個導覽人員。他們沒有像半導體產業那樣得到政府的支持，他們經歷過疫情的衝擊，他們期待政府能夠兌現選舉之前說要開放大陸觀光的選舉支票，可是又被民進黨政府跳票了。民進黨政府一直在講「等待對岸的善意」，達到它所謂「對等尊嚴」的政治訴求，因此不惜綁架了觀光產業，把這些觀光產業的人當作人肉盾牌、當作砲灰。但是這個被民進黨政府搞得奄奄一息的觀光產業背後，是22萬個家庭的生計喔！","今天我聽說，好像我們觀光產業的理事長也有來，他們也非常關心今天召委排的這一次的說明，所以為什麼那麼重要？因為我剛剛提到，有22萬個家庭的生計，這22萬個家庭的生計難道也是所謂自由經濟發展的必然結果嗎？當然不是。我剛剛看到了這些政策，你也同意我說的，有的時候是政策的問題，我認為這是民進黨他們以非常惡意的政策製造出來的貧窮惡果。","觀光的人口數，觀光署副署長也在，副署長，我們從2016年的44萬人降到22萬人，一半喔！所以我們現在幾乎有一半從事觀光產業的家庭可能淪為主計總處那個所謂20%的負債家庭。我們也看到非常多的新聞、非常多的報導，這些家庭根本是活不下去，所以我在這裡要呼籲我們的政府，還有我們台上的大官們，我們真的不要忘記了，我們的薪水也有這22萬家庭繳出去的稅金。所以如果我們的政府想要操弄善意，而沒有得到對岸回應的時候，你們的惡意就會讓這個觀光業的22萬個家庭背負沈重的負債，他們已經快要活不下去了。","所以我要再講一次，貧富不均不是什麼自由經濟發展的必然結果，這是政府惡意操弄政策的結果。當我們拿著所謂人民的這些血汗錢，或者是看著是人民已經要活不下去了，這些人民他們是會憤怒的啦！到時候他們燒起來，絕對不是現在我們打到的什麼弊端、什麼弊案、什麼光電幫，股票可以從他們資本額10萬，現在到達這麼高。我想，那會影響的是你們的政權喔！主委。"],["邱主任委員太三：我有兩個面向的回答，第一個，我想任何一個國家，它確實必須有它的產業政策，也就是它到底要發展哪一些產業，這個當然有得有失，強勢的當然希望，就像中國，它認為它的電動車會強，所以它高度補助電動車，其他產業也一樣，所以各國到底怎麼去決定它的產業政策……"],["高金委員素梅：我們對半導體產業也是特別優惠啊！"],["邱主任委員太三：我也不是經濟部，我也不是國科會……"],["高金委員素梅：那就看我們政府的……"],["邱主任委員太三：我當然同意在執行的過程中一定會產生偏差，這個偏差怎麼再去把它調整回來，這個我同意，但是一定有得有失……"],["高金委員素梅：對，所以我剛剛講到半導體產業他們有32萬人口，但是獲利的80%全部都是外資……"],["邱主任委員太三：這是第一個啦！"],["高金委員素梅：不見得是我們本國的人獲利，可是我們的政府卻給它這麼多優惠，要電給電、要水給水，然後稅金又特別優惠，所以端看我們的政府到底在所謂的政策上面是偏袒哪一方，很顯然我剛剛以觀光業為主，我們的觀光業本來從平均有44萬人一直到現在22萬人，我們少了一半，然後這一半又因為沒有開放兩岸之間的觀光，所以造成這些人又活不下去，所以主委，今天我才會排這樣子的專案來跟您做交流……"],["邱主任委員太三：第二個……"],["高金委員素梅：我們是不是趕快要回頭看看22萬人……"],["邱主任委員太三：如果你要讓這22萬人有工作可以做，是要大陸趕快放它的人過來啊！它到現在才放馬祖而已，一年6,500個人，一天不到18個，而且只有馬祖地區，您這次去應該是要求說你應該給臺灣這22萬人有工作，這22萬人才會感謝你，是你不放你們的陸客來臺灣，這些人是要賺陸客的錢……"],["高金委員素梅：好啦！主委……"],["邱主任委員太三：對不對，所以委員，我講角度的問題您要思考。"],["高金委員素梅：主委，別忘了您的工作是人民納稅錢給你的，包括這22萬人。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，所以我們現在呼籲……"],["高金委員素梅：所以陸委會成立的目的跟宗旨就是希望能夠兩岸溝通……"],["邱主任委員太三：對，我們沒有溝通嗎？我們有溝通啊！它不要啊！"],["高金委員素梅：您作為這個位置，你最主要的就是好好去溝通，而不是一直在這邊講說那邊不釋出善意，所以最後我要大聲地講，我們的民進黨政府，包括主委您剛剛的態度，你們口口聲聲一直說要等待對岸的善意，我回過頭來，我看到的是你們這個行為就是對我們觀光產業還有這些家庭最大的惡意，好嗎？謝謝您，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，我想如果我們……"],["高金委員素梅：我們就到此結束我們的對談了，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員太三：反而讓我們的人到大陸去消費，那22萬人恐怕明年度的收入會更加減少，因為他們沒有人過來。"],["主席：謝謝邱主委，謝謝高金召委的質詢。接下來請張宏陸委員質詢。"],["主席（高金委員素梅）：不好意思，張宏陸委員，你有要主委留下嗎？還是不用？好，謝謝。非常謝謝主委，希望您保重身體，也希望您在卸下公職之後能夠對兩岸的問題更深入地來探討跟做好的先鋒，好嗎？謝謝。好，我們現在請張宏陸委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":506,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","李柏毅","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","傅崐萁","廖先翔","鄭天財Sra 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:0.389,"end":11.135,"text":"請高金素梅召委謝謝主席我們請邱主委然後再請經濟處處長邱主委還有海基會的副秘書長請經濟處的葉處長還有海基會的蔡副秘書長"},{"start":23.22,"end":29.423,"text":"主計處在4月29日公布了110年家庭財富分配統計統計全台灣家庭貧富之間的差距已經達到了"},{"start":48.053,"end":48.554,"text":"主席主委"},{"start":62.964,"end":69.929,"text":"我想貧富的這個差距確實是各國都非常關注的我們大概可以看出幾個趨勢大概資本主義的國家貧富的差距一定比社會主義的國家還高"},{"start":79.375,"end":105.694,"text":"第二 全球化的結果 恐怕這個必然會加劇所以你是同意他的說法嗎不是 這個基本上必然會加劇但是呢 當然各國採取的政策是不是有效或有用 我不曉得那我們大概可以看相較於全球化的結果大概資本主義發達的國家的差距會越大你倒是提到了一個很重要的問題我不同意這是高度自由經濟發展的必然結果"},{"start":106.554,"end":115.1,"text":"那你剛剛談到政策是的我想請問一下主委齁這個您一個月的薪資是多少這是公開的嘛20到25萬之間吧大概20萬左右再加一個部長家籍3萬9對所以將近20到25萬張當中嘛對大概25萬以內啦那您認為您家的開銷夠嗎"},{"start":131.556,"end":142.361,"text":"當然坦白講每一個人的家庭情況不一定一樣像我這麼節儉的人當然是夠啦但是重點在後面我當律師的時候大概都是這個20到23萬之間因為你節儉所以夠"},{"start":147.683,"end":169.899,"text":"所以,您不向主計處公布排名後20%的家庭,它的平均負債是405萬。所以,我完全不同意主計處所說的這種說法。台灣社會的貧富不均,真的不是什麼必然的結果,它根本就是人為的政策惡果。我舉一個,台灣半導體的產業來講,"},{"start":172.987,"end":176.913,"text":"今年他們的產值是達到了新台幣5兆政府對這個半導體產業要電給電"},{"start":180.629,"end":184.413,"text":"政府給了他們所有的政策給他們所有的優惠但是獲利的80%卻是被外資拿走了"},{"start":203.67,"end":209.816,"text":"好 我們再回頭來看一下我們台灣的觀光產業按照2023年的產值我們是7500億然後根據交通部觀光局的統計觀光業的從業人力2023年是22萬4618人副署長 對吧好 麻煩你也上台一下 謝謝"},{"start":226.291,"end":252.492,"text":"這項產業大部分都是服務業就是剛剛麥玉珍講到的最基層也有這個導覽人員他們沒有得到像半導產業那樣的政府的支持他們經歷過疫情的衝擊他們期待政府能夠兌現選舉之前的開放大陸觀光的選舉支票可是呢又被民進黨政府跳票了民進黨政府一直在講"},{"start":253.493,"end":268.701,"text":"等待對岸的善意達到他所謂的對等尊嚴的政治訴求因此就不惜綁架了這個觀光產業把這些觀光產業的人當作人肉盾牌當作炮灰"},{"start":269.341,"end":294.114,"text":"但是這個被民進黨政府搞的一夜一席的觀光產業的背後是22萬個家庭的生計喔今天我聽說好像我們觀光產業的理事長也有來他們也非常關心今天召委排的這一次的這個說明所以為什麼那麼重要因為我剛剛提到有22萬個家庭的生計"},{"start":296.555,"end":318.241,"text":"這22萬人的聲音難道也是所謂的自由經濟發展的必然結果嗎我剛剛看到的這些政策您也同意我說有的時候是政策的問題當然不是我認為這是民進黨他們非常惡意的政策製造出來的貧窮惡果觀光的人口數觀光副署長在觀光副署長從我們2016年的44萬人降到22萬人"},{"start":325.524,"end":351.359,"text":"所以我們現在幾乎有一半的觀光產業人口的家庭可能淪為了主計處那個所謂的20%的負債家庭我們也看到非常多的新聞非常多的報導這些家庭根本是活不下去了所以我在這裡要呼籲我們的政府還有我們台上面的大官們我們真的不要忘記了我們的薪水"},{"start":352.847,"end":365.456,"text":"也有這22萬家庭繳出去的稅金所以如果我們的政府想要操弄善意而沒有得到對岸回應的時候你們的惡意就會讓觀光業的22萬個家庭"},{"start":371.921,"end":373.642,"text":"平復不均不是什麼自由經濟發展必然結果"},{"start":385.081,"end":407.692,"text":"這是政府惡意操弄政策的結果當我們拿著所謂人民的這些血汗錢或者是看著人民已經要活不下去了這些人民他們是會憤怒的啦到時候他們燒起來絕對不是現在我們打到的什麼弊端什麼弊案然後什麼光電幫股票可以從他們資本額10萬現在到達這麼高"},{"start":411.494,"end":433.021,"text":"我想那會影響的是你們的政權喔好 主委我就兩個面向的回答第一個我想任何一個國家他確實他必須會有他的產業政策也就是說他到底要發展哪一些產業那這個當然有得有失啦你強勢的你當然希望就像中國他認為他的電動車會強所以他高度的在補助電動車業其他產業也一樣"},{"start":437.742,"end":446.272,"text":"所以這個各國到底他怎麼去決定我們這半島題材也是特別優惠我不是經濟部我不是國歌會主委我都很容易在這個執行的過程中一定會產生偏差這個偏差怎麼再去把它調整回來"},{"start":452.679,"end":478.58,"text":"所以我剛剛講到半導體產業他們有32萬人口但是獲利的80%全部都是外資不見得是我們本國的人獲利可是我們的政府卻給他這麼多的優惠藥店給電藥水給水然後稅金又特別的優惠所以端看我們的政府到底在這個所謂的政策上面是偏袒哪一方很顯然我剛剛以觀光業為主"},{"start":479.781,"end":499.766,"text":"我們的觀光業本來從平均有44萬人一直到現在22萬人我們少了一半然後這一半又因為沒有開放兩岸之間的觀光所以造成這些人又活不下去所以主委今天才會我排這樣子的專案來跟您來做交流啊我們是不是趕快要回台來看看這22萬人的生計"},{"start":506.088,"end":523.87,"text":"有工作可以做是要大陸趕快放他的人過來啊他到現在才放馬祖而已啊一年6500個人一天不到18個而且只有馬祖地區這次去應該是要求說那你應該給台灣這22人有工作這22人才會感謝你"},{"start":525.192,"end":538.041,"text":"是你不放你們的陸客來台灣這些人是要賺陸客的錢主委主委所以我講角度的問題主委別忘了您的工作是人民納稅錢給你的所以我們現在呼籲最好不要再設"},{"start":541.724,"end":570.697,"text":"所以陸委會成立的目的跟宗旨就是希望能夠兩岸溝通那您作為這個位置您最主要的就是好好去溝通而不是一直在這邊講說那邊不是出善意啊所以我最後我要大聲的講我們的民進黨政府包括主委您剛剛的態度你們口口聲聲一直說要等待對岸的善意"},{"start":571.377,"end":575.78,"text":"我回過頭來,我看到的是,你們這個行為就是對我們觀光產業還有這些家庭最大的惡意,好嗎?謝謝您,謝謝!我們就到此結束我們的討論談了,謝謝!"}]}},{"id":"151931","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151931","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bd08281a73b82fe7caf7b9089f19fa5f77f5010e6307119194c387a4e6f397e9c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:17:55 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09:24:47","影片長度":"00:06:52","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部、交通部、大陸委員會、財團法人海峽交流基金會、原住民族委員會就「針對陸方開放大陸觀光客來台具體回應及作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":412,"end_time":"2024-05-01T09:24:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T09:17:55+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":102,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（9時17分）主席、各位官員、各位委員，大家早安、大家好。是不是請邱太三主委？"],["主席：請邱主委。"],["邱主任委員太三：張委員好。"],["張委員智倫：主委早安。今天是五一勞動節，大家都非常辛苦來這裡開會，主委也非常辛苦。我們國民黨委員除了覺得主委非常辛苦外，也對陸委會這三年多來，將近快四年時間，與大陸方面的良好互動提出質疑。我相信大家對兩岸和平與臺灣的經濟繁榮一直在努力打拼，首先請問主委，目前從平潭到臺北、臺中的航班，有沒有可能復航？客運部分有沒有可能復航？"],["邱主任委員太三：這是政策性的決定，我想我們即將交接，是看守的……"],["張委員智倫：現在有沒有在討論復航的可能性？主委，現在班機在飛，貨運也在啟動，為什麼客運部分要限制？"],["邱主任委員太三：客運部分原來是涉及到防疫問題……"],["張委員智倫：雖然主委講得非常清楚，可是現在大家都沒戴口罩，沒有防疫了。"],["邱主任委員太三：第二個是到底客運量夠不夠的問題，這點我要跟委員說清楚。過去大陸是開海峽號，我們是麗娜輪……"],["張委員智倫：沒錯，是海峽號。"],["邱主任委員太三：但麗娜輪已經收起來了，因為根本沒有客源，而且是在疫情之前就已經沒有……"],["張委員智倫：主委，我知道客源是一件事，開放是另一件事。但有開放就有機會有客源……"],["邱主任委員太三：但是沒有客源……"],["張委員智倫：主委，航班都在開，貨運也在啟動……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們都會針對各種現實狀況……"],["張委員智倫：你們有在討論嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：我們一直在……所以我們每次都來跟各位報告，到底現在交流狀況為何？人有多少？經貿有多少？"],["張委員智倫：主委，第二個問題，針對我們過去一直討論的限制大陸旅客來臺人次每天2,000人，因為過去我們都知道，在頂峰的時候，大陸旅客來臺灣大概都三、四百萬人，一天大概都兩、三萬人，現在只開放大陸旅客來臺2,000人，有沒有機會把這個部分給開放？"],["邱主任委員太三：從我們2010年開始開放陸客，一開始就設定是應該是2,000人還是3,000人，後來按照它的需求，不斷運作的結果，增加到4,000人、5,000人，所以我們也是一樣，因為疫後希望能夠健康永續的交流……"],["張委員智倫：對，我瞭解。"],["邱主任委員太三：所以我們要用2019年的數字，疫情之前的數字……"],["張委員智倫：主委，我要跟你報告，因為現在已經2024年了，所以拜託一下，應該陸委會這邊……"],["邱主任委員太三：第二個重點是在於，它還沒有把臺灣列為他們國人可以來旅遊的地方。"],["張委員智倫：這兩個都是有關於大陸旅客到臺灣的航班跟旅客人數的問題。"],["邱主任委員太三：對，所以希望對岸也要檢討一下他們相關的政策。"],["張委員智倫：第三個，我要請問主委，主委沒有對我正面的回復，是不是可以取消5月31日臺灣的旅客到大陸組團的禁團令？因為現在大陸已經有遞出橄欖枝，雖然這個橄欖枝很小，可是還是橄欖枝，好不好？"],["邱主任委員太三：恐怕這個橄欖枝有刺喔！至於你提到的5月31日，我想這是新政府他們要去做決定的，所以我沒有辦法在這邊代答。"],["張委員智倫：好，還有一個非常重要的問題，因為之前我們一直在討論金廈事件，金廈事件因為現在整個新聞已經退燒了，可是就我瞭解，當時陸方的漁船上有四名大陸籍的漁民，當時四名都落水，兩名已經救回來生還，兩名罹難，我想要請問主委知不知道現在兩名罹難者的遺體，現在是放在哪裡？"],["邱主任委員太三：在金門。"],["張委員智倫：對。主委，這就是我現在不能接受，也是現在全國人民所嘩然的，從2月14日發生金廈事件，居然這兩名罹難者的遺體現在還在金門，讓所有被害者的家屬，我相信在陸方的被害者家屬是沒有辦法接受的，因為我認為這件事情要有同理心，從2月14日到現在……"],["邱主任委員太三：我們要發還給他，他不要領，是因為陸方……"],["張委員智倫：沒有。主委，我覺得這個講的時候要非常小心，要發還給他，他不要領？"],["邱主任委員太三：絕對是這樣子的，很簡單，因為檢察官就問家屬對於死亡原因有沒有意見，因為這會涉及到後面的偵查、偵辦，結果他本來……"],["張委員智倫：所以第一個，我認為因為臺灣人民未來如果在大陸發生相對應的事情的時候……"],["邱主任委員太三：就我們的瞭解，家屬不會有意見，但是陸方對於……"],["張委員智倫：如果罹難者的遺體還不趕快發回去給罹難者的家屬，對罹難者家屬心理造成的傷害……"],["邱主任委員太三：委員如果有辦法，我可以幫你們安排，檢察官馬上可以……"],["張委員智倫：主委，你上次跟我說赴大陸旅遊，你也要我安排，這次受害者的家屬，也要我安排。"],["邱主任委員太三：對啊！你剛去回來啊！"],["張委員智倫：也要我協助安排罹難者家屬來領……"],["邱主任委員太三：不是，只要家屬對死亡的原因有意見，那麼檢察官沒有辦法，就只好……"],["張委員智倫：今天是5月1日，罹難者的遺體還放在金門，我相信雙方要依照……"],["邱主任委員太三：委員，要講真正的原因是什麼，是家屬對死亡的原因不願意表示意見，這對檢察官來講……"],["張委員智倫：這跟我得到的資訊是不太一樣的。"],["邱主任委員太三：我當過檢察官，我當然知道要怎麼處理，他如果真的沒有意見，領回隨時都可以安排。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝主委的分享。因為這個應該很多人都不知道現在的狀況，以為都已經送回去了，所以本席才要在這邊對你提出疑問。"],["邱主任委員太三：所以我們是希望陸方不要對於家屬過多的干擾，讓他對於本來沒有什麼太大爭議的死亡原因，他也要有意見，我們擔心的是，最後檢察官說不定要求……"],["張委員智倫：主席再多給我1分鐘的時間。因為其實今天邱太三主委本來九點半就有事情要離開了，其實本席對你是非常敬重的，因為你是一位名律師，也擔任過多屆的立法委員，也擔任過我們臺灣的法務部長，尤其你對我們晚輩其實都非常的禮遇，也常常給我們一些經驗的分享，而且你的政黨顏色其實是不深的，所以最後我是不是給你一段時間，不管是從陸委會主委的角度，給臺灣未來的兩岸政策、賴政府未來的兩岸是不是可以和平以及對於下一位主委發表一些看法？因為我知道你快要退休了，發表一些退休的感想。"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，我回學校。"],["張委員智倫：是不是給你一點時間發表一下？我想你有準備吧？你有準備嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：我沒有準備。"],["張委員智倫：沒有準備？"],["邱主任委員太三：我私下再跟你報告。"],["張委員智倫：因為今天是國會殿堂，我們希望讓你留下一個美好的身影，謝謝。"],["邱主任委員太三：會啦！謝謝。"],["張委員智倫：沒有要回應嗎？"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝張智倫委員的質詢、謝謝主委。","主委，家屬不願意領回去，可能是會造成以後他們一些官司上的問題，所以您剛剛這樣回應，我有一點失望。"],["邱主任委員太三：所以反而他應該在臺灣把它的爭議點趕快講清楚，不然他回去的時候……"],["主席：雙方都應該要把這些爭議點給講清楚，好不好？謝謝。"],["邱主任委員太三：檢察官有傳喚他，他如果不領回……"],["主席：這是身為一個官員還有對待家屬一個最基本的態度，如果我們的政府都是希望家屬趕快領回，這樣子也是不負責任的作法，對不對？一定是有意見……"],["邱主任委員太三：沒有，那是他說……不讓家屬領回……"],["主席：所以一定是有意見，家屬才會依照他們未來的權利，才不願意把遺體領回去，雙方應該要好好的談、處理這件事情。","好，我們繼續請麥玉珍委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":506,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","李柏毅","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","傅崐萁","廖先翔","鄭天財Sra 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隨時都可以安排好 謝謝主委的分享因為這個大家一開兩講應該很多人都不知道現在的狀況也都已經送回去了所以本席才要在這邊請出一個疑問對於家屬過多的干擾讓他對本來沒有什麼太大爭議的死亡原因他也要有意見"},{"start":339.556,"end":359.59,"text":"最後主席再多給我一分鐘的時間因為其實今天邱太山主委本來9點半就有事情要離開了其實本席對您是非常的敬重的因為你過去有擔任過你是一位名律師也擔任過多屆的立法委員也擔任過我們台灣的法務部長"},{"start":361.972,"end":389.129,"text":"尤其其實你對我們晚輩其實都非常的禮遇也常常跟我們一些經驗的分享而且你的這個政黨顏色其實是不深的所以最後我是不是給你一段時間不管是對針對陸委會主委的這個的角度是不是給台灣未來的兩岸的政策及未來那一政府未來的兩岸是不是可以和平以及我們下一位的主委發表一下一些的這個因為我知道你快要退休了"},{"start":389.909,"end":389.929,"text":"張智倫"}]}},{"id":"151930","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151930","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b512eb2eafc4c70e1af7b9089f19fa5f77f5010e630711919341e813343861a055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:11:07 - 09:17:39","影片長度":"00:06:32","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議（事由：邀請內政部、交通部、大陸委員會、財團法人海峽交流基金會、原住民族委員會就「針對陸方開放大陸觀光客來台具體回應及作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第15次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":15,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-15"},"duration":392,"end_time":"2024-05-01T09:17:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T09:11:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":81,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（9時10分）謝謝主席。請邱主委、周副署長。"],["主席：請邱主委、副署長。"],["邱主任委員太三：委員好。"],["蘇委員巧慧：主委好。今天是0501、5月1日，我記得我們有過很相關的題目，幾乎一樣，也是在討論赴陸旅遊團停招的決策過程與後續影響評估，也是主委來報告的。那是什麼時候？3月，對不對？0306，差不多在一個多月前。那時候召委很用心，以委員會的時間排了一場赴陸旅遊團停招的題目，叫主委詳細來報告過程、理由和影響。那時候主委就很清楚向全社會報告、向各委員報告，做這個決定的理由是什麼。我記得是兩個：第一，基於平等互惠，兩邊的政策、方方面面，包括旅遊政策，兩邊，中國、臺灣，都應該基於平等互惠來執行；第二，在前不久，在0306之前，在我們做了赴中停招之前，壓垮駱駝的最後一根稻草就是M503改變，我的印象沒有錯吧？你的理由也是這樣，對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：因素之一。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我想請問，還不到兩個月時間，請問這兩項理由有改變了嗎？現在氣氛有改變了嗎？改變了什麼？"],["邱主任委員太三：陸委會在4月28日的新聞稿已經說明得很清楚了，大陸用這樣一個附條件，且限制區域，完全不符合雙方原來所期待的對等原則。這點我想陸委會的新聞稿已經說得很清楚了。"],["蘇委員巧慧：你剛剛說的還是結果，他開了一個有限制的範圍旅遊，但事實上，以兩岸的氛圍來講，沒有啊！戰機天天飛，戰艦天天繞，而且除了當時說的M503東移之外，現在連W航線也通通開啟了，只有變本加厲，哪有兩岸緩和？唯一的緩和可能是上禮拜由傅總召帶著幾位委員去中國，然後拿回來了一些所謂好棒棒的惠臺措施，對不對？主委，我再跟你確認一下。我做了一張表格，比較中國跟臺灣兩方的自由行跟團客，請主委看看比較得對不對。","臺灣早就已經開放赴中自由行，所以在自由行上我們是開放的；至於中國，到現在都還沒有開！到現在都沒有開自由行來臺灣。這次他說開福建民眾到馬祖旅遊，這是他將來、現在、可能、快要做的事情，不然現在是一個自由行都沒有！那臺灣的團客是什麼？臺灣是本來已經做好準備，3到5月本來有這麼多人，有四千團、十萬人可以赴中，可是因為完全沒有平等互惠，所以我們才說先暫停。他現在說有條件推動福建民眾組團來臺灣，而所謂條件是平潭航線，就是船的航線要先復航，還加條件，我這個比較表對不對？"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：完全正確？所以中國的自由行團客和臺灣的自由行團客兩張表放在這裡一看，怎麼會是平等互惠？完全沒有道理吧？"],["邱主任委員太三：我們的新聞稿已經說明得很清楚了。"],["蘇委員巧慧：很清楚嘛！但我覺得我這張表比你講的更清楚！"],["邱主任委員太三：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：哪一隻眼睛可以看到這樣叫平等互惠？不過我覺得兩岸之間確實應該要有善意的交流，所以誰先遞出橄欖枝沒關係，只要是善意的堆疊，其實對兩岸人民來說都是好事，因為沒有人想看到戰爭！我現在覺得傅總召換到了一個……我們算過，在2019年時，一年有六千五百人到馬祖玩。我們用這樣的數值來算，如果一個人消費一萬，一年大概六千五百萬。一年六千五百萬對馬祖觀光的投資，換到了三天頭版新聞，所有媒體都在討論，立法院還不斷、連今天都加開委員會討論他的政策，我覺得實在很划算。傅總召實在厲害，真的，我們要佩服他的手腕。","基於平等互惠，我想建議陸委會和觀光局……對不起，升格了，我要建議陸委會跟觀光署，是不是也同樣開放福建廈門居民組團到金門旅遊，我們可以先從這第一步開始？而且我們還可以再加碼，連金門都可以組團，這樣有沒有遞出善意？這樣不錯啊？我覺得兩岸的善意要堆疊。既然中國開了一個這樣的門給我們，我們也要同等互惠，它開這樣我們就開這樣，它開那樣我們就開那樣。這樣兩岸其實可以越走越好，你同不同意我的作法？"],["邱主任委員太三：委員的建議會給……"],["蘇委員巧慧：可以考慮啦。"],["邱主任委員太三：給未來新任的人選做很好的……"],["蘇委員巧慧：副署長同不同意？我覺得不錯，基於平等互惠，它開福建居民，而且是最瞭解廈門的福建居民組團來廈門玩，我們就開馬祖……不對，我剛剛說錯了。應該是它開福建居民，最熟悉那一帶風情的福建居民來我們馬祖玩，那我們就開馬祖居民組團到福建去玩，我們還可以加碼，金門也不錯，對不對？其實兩岸要有創新的思維，這樣善意互相堆疊，路才能越走越寬。我上次就已經質詢過，既然赴中旅遊停招，那麼相關國內業者就要有配套措施，但因為時間關係來不及問你。這一點我等一下會提臨時提案，所以希望觀光署可以有更多的解釋，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝蘇巧慧委員的質詢。謝謝主委、謝謝副署長。","現在請張智倫委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":506,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-15","speakers":["高金素梅","蘇巧慧","張智倫","麥玉珍","張宏陸","李柏毅","牛煦庭","王美惠","黃捷","黃建賓","許宇甄","吳琪銘","徐欣瑩","丁學忠","傅崐萁","廖先翔","鄭天財Sra 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主委今天是0501 5月1號那我記得我們有很相關的題目幾乎一樣是在討論復入旅遊團停交的決策過程與後續影響評估也是主委來報告的嘛那是什麼時候啊 3月嘛對不對 03 06 差不多在一個多月前"},{"start":22.153,"end":39.42,"text":"那時候我們就是就張偉很用心用這樣的這個委員會的時間排了一場復入旅遊團的停招在你詳細的來報告過程旅遊和影響那時候你就很清楚的跟全社會報告跟各委員報告我們做這個決定的理由是什麼"},{"start":40.62,"end":55.65,"text":"我記得是兩個嘛第一個就是基於平等互惠兩邊的政策不管是在方方面面包括旅遊政策兩邊中國台灣都應該是基於平等互惠來執行第二個是在前不久的時候在0306之前"},{"start":58.012,"end":74.27,"text":"就是在我們做了這個附中停招之前最後壓垮一根稻草最後壓垮駱駝的稻草就是M503改變嘛主委我的印象沒有錯吧你的理由也是這樣對不對這是因素之一對嘛好那我想請問這樣還不到兩個月的時間請問這兩項理由有改變了嗎"},{"start":78.474,"end":99.997,"text":"現在氣氛有改變了嗎?改變了什麼?這個4月28號我們陸委會的這個新聞稿已經說明很清楚了我想大陸用這樣一個負條件而且限制區域這個完全不符合雙方所原來期待的對等原則我想這個陸委會的記者那個新聞稿已經說得很清楚了"},{"start":100.157,"end":104.279,"text":"各位這段期間你剛剛說的還是結果是他開了一個有限制的範圍旅遊但事實上如果以我們兩岸的氛圍來講沒有啊戰機天天飛戰艦天天繞而且連當時說是M503東移之外現在連W航線也通通都開啟了這只有變本加厲這哪有兩岸緩和唯一的緩和可能是上個禮拜由副總召帶著幾位委員去到了中國"},{"start":129.269,"end":136.797,"text":"然後拿回來了一些所謂的好棒棒的這些會台措施嘛對不對所以主委我再跟你確認一下我做了一張表格在比較中國跟台灣兩方面的自由行跟團客我們的比較看看對不對"},{"start":147.828,"end":153.194,"text":"我們台灣呢早就已經開放了附中自由行喔自由行我們是開的那中國呢這現在都還沒有開捏到現在他沒有開自由行來台灣啊是在這次他說啊我來開一個福建民眾到馬祖旅遊啦這是他所謂他將來現在可能快要做的事情"},{"start":168.01,"end":187.174,"text":"不然的話他現在是一個自由行都沒有啊那台灣的團客是什麼台灣我們是本來已經做好了準備3到5月本來有這麼多人4千團10萬人可以附中了可是因為平等互惠完全沒有嘛所以我們才說先暫停那他現在說我又有條件推動福建民眾組團"},{"start":193.235,"end":194.396,"text":"我們新聞稿已經說明很清楚了"},{"start":215.356,"end":242.09,"text":"很清楚嘛但我覺得我這張表比你還要更清楚我覺得我這張表比你還要更清楚這哪一個眼睛可以看到這樣是平等互惠不過啦我是這樣覺得我覺得兩岸之間確實是應該要有善意的交流我覺得其實誰先遞出橄欖枝這個沒有關係只要是善意的堆疊其實對兩岸人民都是好事因為沒有人要看到戰爭嘛所以我現在是這樣覺得啦"},{"start":243.615,"end":257.37,"text":"副總召去換到了一個當時我們算過2019年一年是6500人到馬祖去玩我們用這樣的數字來算好了如果一個人消費一萬的話就是大概6500萬一年"},{"start":260.854,"end":265.637,"text":"一年6500萬對馬祖觀光的投資換到了三天頭版的新聞所有的媒體都在討論 立法院還不斷連今天都加開委員會討論他的政策 我覺得是很划算的副董事實在是厲害 真的我們要佩服他的手腕那我覺得基於平等互惠 我想建議陸委會和觀光局"},{"start":286.952,"end":310.567,"text":"我覺得我們也要 觀光署對不起你升格了我也要建議立委會跟觀光署我們是不是也同樣開放我們廈門的居民組團到福建廈門組團到金門去旅遊我覺得我們可以先從這第一步開始啊而且我們還可以再加碼我們連金門都可以組團阿妳有沒有遞出善意"},{"start":311.588,"end":311.628,"text":"蘇巧慧議員"},{"start":334.929,"end":360.138,"text":"我覺得不錯啊我們基於平等互惠嘛他開福建居民最了解廈門的福建居民組團來廈門玩那我們就開馬祖不是我剛剛說錯了應該是他開福建居民最熟悉那一代風情的福建居民來我們的馬祖玩那我們就開馬祖的居民到福建組團去玩啊我們加碼我們金門也不錯啊"},{"start":362.398,"end":362.558,"text":"好 非常謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151929","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151929","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b0d05c1b882676b301e4149ad024bf7a87f5010e630711919c22e425c45b5ead05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:14:44 - 10:23:35","影片長度":"00:08:51","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員傅崐萁等41人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1"},"duration":531,"end_time":"2024-05-01T10:23:35+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T10:14:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":390,"blocks":[["莊委員瑞雄：（10時14分）謝謝主席，有請陳耀祥主任委員。"],["主席：麻煩主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員早。"],["莊委員瑞雄：主委早。這就是國會啦，你也看多了，這沒什麼啦！現在的國會政黨鬥來鬥去，這一屆的立法委員無限膨脹，權力要大到什麼地步，每一個人的想像有所不同，但我倒要請教了，2005年的時候你在什麼地方？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：2005年我在學校。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我之所以這樣問，就是讓主委來回憶一下，當初2005年在立法的時候，其實整個立法的沿革它是非常重要，2005年那個時候有通傳會的組織法，第四條第二項規定通傳會的委員是由各政黨來舉薦，並依立法院的席次比例共推薦十五名，行政院長推薦三名，然後交給提名審查委員會進行審查，我今天為什麼會提這些？主要是讓大家來回憶一下，當初的審查委員會也由各政黨依照政黨比例推薦十一位專家學者來組成，而同年12月提出了釋憲，那個時候的行政院長叫做謝長廷，當時的行政院秘書長有趣了，就是即將要接任行政院長的卓榮泰。在隔年（2006年）的時候，大法官做成釋字第613號的解釋，宣告這個條文違憲嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：主委，那個違憲的內容你應該知道吧？請你說明一下。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：基本上來講的話，NCC的人事權是歸屬於行政院院長，為什麼？因為行政院基於行政一體，要對所有施政的良莠負責，這就是責任制的概念。雖然在法律上來講，立法院對於人事同意權的部分，因為透過人事同意權或是透過立法，可以對人事有一點參與或者制衡，但是不可以逾越所謂權力分立的界線，事實上剝奪行政院院長的人事提名權。"],["莊委員瑞雄：這個就講得好，你看今年3月8號傅崐萁委員提出了NCC組織法的修正，裡面就提到通傳會的委員由行政院及各政黨各推薦七名，依照各政黨在立法院的比例來分配名額，也就是大家來分就對了，而且要交由審查委員會來審議，至於審查委員會的組成，由各政黨在立法院的席次比例來推薦。你仔細把它看一看，就跟二十年前的條文一模一樣，被大法官宣告違憲的條文重新又出來了。但是後來不知道他發現了什麼，他又提出另外一個版本，改由立法委員推舉審查委員，這叫什麼你知道嗎？新的手機還是用舊的門號，新瓶裝的還是舊酒，換湯不換藥，同樣都是二十年前已經被宣告違憲的東西了。這個其實就是剛剛主委所講的剝奪行政院的提名權，被立法機關直接在條文當中明定立法院提名審查同意，然後叫行政院來任命，這個在二十年前就已經被講成是違憲的東西，現在再重新提出來，我相信在立法院可以來做一個討論，社會也可以來做一個公斷，獨立機關行政獨立以及受立法院監督的問題，其實這個本來都可以討論。","比如說通傳會、金管會，這些都是獨立機關，一直以來所遇到的問題就是行政獨立跟立法監督有一定程度衝突的地方，可是大家一直在看這幾年獨立運作下來，當然立法院對你們有所批評。獨立機關不僅要取得民主的正當性，也要彰顯立法權對行政權的制衡，可是你去把它做比較，獨立性越低的，它就會跟行政體系越接近，比如國發會、客委會；獨立性越高的，它就會脫離行政首長的掌握，比如金管會、中選會，還有通傳會。為了讓它獨立……其實它也並沒有完全擺脫行政權或者立法權的監督，保留了行政院長對獨立機關重要人士一定的決定權，並把人事同意權留給立法院，避免單一政黨對各獨立機關的影響，其實要怎麼樣做到避免各政黨的干預，並達成獨立機關的目的，一直是臺灣憲政的一個大哉問。來到立法院，陳主委人家在譙你，你笑一笑就好了，因為制度本來就是這樣，站在不同的立場，他著墨的當然就會不一樣或有所不同。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我剛剛提到大法官釋字第613號，內容其實都講得非常清楚，用簡單的話來講，就是立法院現在有很多手段可以對付獨立機關。比如在野黨這一次一連串的修法裡面，在我看來叫做自己「憨慢」、功夫不好，不知道要怎麼監督，包括預算，或者是在國會裡面透過質詢的方式，他們當然認為是不滿意的，可是他們也忘記當初為什麼要弄這個獨立機關。你注意看他當初在投票的時候，投幾輪呢？投了三輪才投出來，當初民進黨在投票時，你說社會賢達，所以票全部投下去，國親就不一樣了，他們當年的投法就不一樣了，他選擇性地去投。我這樣講，如果讓今天的版本通過的話，會有更大的問題出來。","請主委簡單看一下，我給主委看一下當年的報紙，你看，臺灣各主要的日報談到NCC都是在講泛藍大敗泛綠，NCC委員出來其藍綠比是多少？NCC委員名單出現，國親取得過半，NCC委員名單都是在談這些，都是在講藍跟講綠，這個怎麼會是我們要的獨立機關呢？所以我覺得主委擔任主委這段期間，知道很多人罵你，這段時間，新的人、新的立委進來，問政風格會有所不同啦！也不要洩氣啦！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：謝謝。"],["莊委員瑞雄：但當然要為歷史負責，一個獨立機關該有的風骨我們當然也要，問題是面對國會提出這樣的法案，既然不想再繼續做下去、不再留戀的話，為所當為啦！該向立法院提出這一些針砭的言論也不用客氣啦！不要讓立法委員對你大小聲，因此退縮，也沒有必要，不要做的最大啦！不是這樣說嗎？不要做的最大啦！","這些立委，我一看到這種版本，傅崐萁提這個版本，我們一看就知道他是沒讀書的人，沒讀書的人說出來的，他以為政黨很大，讓政黨的人來分，要用分的啦！分一分之後用選的，選出來後跟人家說行政院長你提名又怎麼樣？通過的都是我的人，這個哪叫做獨立機關？"],["主席：請莊委員注意一下時間。"],["莊委員瑞雄：你想要達到NCC是一個獨立機關，然後卻用政黨分贓，大家來用分的方式，在我看來，重新再提出這種二十年前就被宣告違憲的一個條文，我看你笑在心裡，你不好意思罵我們這些立委而已，我怎麼會不知道呢！謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝莊委員，等一下鍾委員詢答結束之後休息3分鐘。","接下來請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","林國成","莊瑞雄","柯建銘","沈發惠","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","黃健豪","李昆澤","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","游顥","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","林沛祥","陳雪生"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一) 委員傅崐萁等33 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員傅崐萁等41 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 委員洪孟楷等25 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、 ( 四 ) 委員翁曉玲等 18 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案。"},{"start":311.34,"end":332.73,"text":"那保留了行政院長對獨立機關重要人士的一個一定的一個決定權並把人事同意權來留給立法院避免單一政黨對各獨立機關的一個影響啊這個其實啊要怎麼樣做到避免各政黨的一個干預啊並達成獨立機關的一個目的啊一直是台灣憲政的一個大災問啊這個來到立法院喔"},{"start":335.992,"end":340.795,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":362.759,"end":368.282,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具"},{"start":391.834,"end":392.794,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":418.235,"end":442.376,"text":"談到NCC都是在講泛藍大敗泛綠。NCC委員出來藍綠比是多少?NCC委員名單出現國青取得過半。NCC委員名單都是在談這些,都是在講藍跟講綠,這個怎麼會是我們要的獨立機關啊?所以我是覺得說注意"},{"start":443.937,"end":445.077,"text":"組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":470.422,"end":472.963,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．一．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．二．"},{"start":494.807,"end":497.729,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案．一）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具"},{"start":520.16,"end":527.205,"text":"在我看來,這種20年前就已經被宣告違憲的一個條文重新再提出,我看你是笑在心上,你抱歉把我們這裡入味乾燥而已,我說不知道。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151928","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151928","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b384165f935fd51451853afabeb86d4497f5010e63071191962550bf84ff2585b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"10:11:30 - 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10:11:13","影片長度":"00:10:06","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-16"},"duration":606,"end_time":"2024-05-01T10:11:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T10:01:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":219,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時1分）謝謝主席，有請局長跟國土辦主任。"],["主席：局長、林主任，請。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席。沈委員早。"],["沈委員伯洋：早。不好意思，我有一個問題有點混在一起，所以我想說一次就問兩位，然後看誰比較能夠回答就直接回答。我今天最主要是想要問幾個小地方，我先從一個小案例問起，先從鐵路的部分開始問起，高鐵的鐵道系統前陣子受到破壞，這不是敵人啦，我只是說可能而已，因為那一個供電的纜線跟訊號的纜線看起來非常相像，當時的人員是說，他們研判他以為是可以偷的東西，結果發現是這個。但在目前的架構之下，高鐵本身很多光纖其實也有給很多人使用，所以本身也算是一個關鍵基礎設施，我想問一下這件事情的後續，對於像這種事情，因為畢竟它很簡單地被破壞到了，這件事情的後續，就是要怎麼樣去防範？不知道後來有沒有什麼討論？"],["蔡局長明彥：就樣態部分我先做說明，再請國土辦就計畫作為的部分再做一些補充。就威脅樣態來講，我們剛剛在書面報告也跟委員們有稍微提到這個部分，人為威脅的部分，他可能因為刻意、蓄意地破壞，或是我們局的案例也曾經有類似剪斷臺鐵電纜的相關案例，影響到正常運輸系統的運作，這當然會對於我們整體的交通網絡造成滿大的衝擊，我們會建議，在因應這樣樣態的過程當中，我們的相關交通運輸系統可能要針對不同的威脅來源，要檢視一下鐵路網路有沒有哪些脆弱點，也要加強平時的巡檢，做必要的演練，提升相關的韌性。","計畫作為的部分，我們再請國土辦來做補充。"],["沈委員伯洋：感謝。簡單就可以了。"],["林主任傑：謝謝委員。這個案子我們有去瞭解，已經有處理的進展了，目前就整個臺鐵的光纖網路配置，其實光纖只要剪斷，因為它是迴路型的，就知道哪裡破壞，所以一定要維持行車的安全，如果有相關事情的話，馬上處理。第二個就是要怎麼提升韌性，讓它快速復原，所以相關、就近的一些設備布置，以及趕快搶修復原的動作都有做一些準備。另外，我們也已經盤點過全國這種類似案例的所在點，針對點的部分馬上做加強。以上。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK。我為什麼提這一點？有幾個因素，第一個，這是一個實體的破壞，實體的破壞其實跟駭客的防護比起來，方法會比較不一樣，這是第一個；第二個就是因為520其實也快到了，當然會有比較大的運輸量會在519或520發生，對我們來講，在前陣子、上一次的520，他們最主要就是攻擊中油，在這幾個月，照理說，假設今天中國想要去做干預，它能夠攻擊的關鍵基礎設施我覺得滿重要的，當然還包含我們的電網。之前我在看這些業者相關的一些內部資料，就發現在這幾個月他們攻擊電網的機率變高了，我覺得這是一個警訊；第二個警訊就是，通常中國要去攻擊任何東西，它一定要搭配假消息的攻擊，在過去兩個月，來自中國跟電有關的假消息變得非常多，我覺得這是很特別的一件事情，因為以前會講電相關的假消息比較多都是國民黨，很少是中國，中國今天會加入，我認為是一件很詭異的事情，所以這方面的防護我覺得可能要特別注意。","接下來，我想講的就是，現在真的要去破壞這種關鍵基礎設施的，除了實體之外，另外還有一個是駭客攻擊，另外還有一個就是間諜。我想先講一下駭客攻擊的部分，這是在2023年5月，所以大概已經快一年以前了，就是伏特颱風這件事情，當時他當然最主要是在攻擊美國的關鍵基礎設施，從中國的攻擊，他不是在攻擊臺灣，但是我們在看一些相關報導的時候，因為他有去碰關島，他去碰關島之後，結果有媒體分析，認為他們在做這樣的攻擊，其實最主要的目標可能是臺灣，這是大概一年前發生的，跟我們剛剛前面講的，目前我們看到一些情資的研判或許有一些重疊的地方。我要問的是，因為我今天有看到兩個單位的業報，裡面有提到怎麼做防護、怎麼做預防等等之類的，所以我這邊稍微整理了一下，這個部分我先暫時跳過，因為剛剛陳永康委員有提過電纜的問題，就是說關島當時做了這樣的一個回應，第一個，他們的國民警衛隊也就是他們的guard舉辦了一個大概100人的討論，因為他也是強調類似像我們全民防衛那種whole-of-government整體的回應，參與的人包含他們的國土安全局及技術辦公室，還有FBI以及聯邦緊急事務管理署、印太司令部、網路司令部等等之類的，也就是說他們參與的人員很廣，為了應對這個對於關鍵基礎設施的攻擊。接下來，他去做了一個best practice，他們直接去分析他們現在的優勢是什麼、他們的劣勢是什麼，如果下一次他們還要做攻擊的話，要做什麼樣的預判，然後制定了章程。","應對臺灣現在所做的應處的話，目前我們有看到第一個就是我們的會報，但是會報能夠涵蓋的層級跟這個有沒有落差，這是第一個；第二個是相關的章程，我記得是國土辦這邊有提到，就是有相關的規範跟章程，簡單來講就是一個類似SOP的東西，這個東西跟所謂的章程能不能夠有best practice？每幾個月相關的單位是不是能夠來做練習？練習時甚至有這種紅藍的對抗，對抗之後，又能夠分析出來，發現我們的弱勢在哪裡，這個機制有沒有在進行？就是業報裡面提到的跟現在我們看到關島在做的有沒有落差？還是非常類似？"],["蔡局長明彥：我先就個案的部分做個補充，就中共的颱風系列的駭客團體，我們有長期在關注，這些不同的颱風系列駭客團體，到底他們的攻擊手法、樣態是什麼，以及他們攻擊的目標聚焦在哪些特定目標，我們都有做一些相關的分析，同時也跟國外的一些相關機關分享我們在情資上所得到的訊息，來做一個比對。我覺得在進行這樣的回應過程當中，怎麼樣建立起跟國際友盟更緊密的合作網絡是非常重要的，這沒有辦法單靠臺灣自己的力量來針對這些中共駭客團體的全球性攻擊來做因應，所以交換資訊跟經驗非常重要。至於我們的應備的相關體制來講，有所謂的政策會報層級，也有所謂的指導綱要部分，針對這種可能的威脅樣態，各部會也會來加強做一些溝通跟協作，也透過必要的演練來強化我們的韌性，大概整體的架構是用這種方式在運作。"],["沈委員伯洋：OK。我為什麼問這個問題？當然這可能有點事涉機密，就是我們現在對於中國駭客的分類，譬如說他們前期在做的，可能像中油的這一次可能是APT41，就像剛剛局長提到的，我們今天跟美方或是跟其他國家在分享情報時，當然可以先去分類，去預判這次是APT40還是APT10或是APT41，可以做一些分類。但我剛剛前面講的就是，當我們做完分類之後，有沒有相關的演練？因為要有一個對抗，也就是我們要怎麼去分析我們的優勢、劣勢，並且多久做一次，這個部分如果不宜在這邊講的話，我們就私底下討論，到時候如果要到辦公室討論的話也沒有問題。"],["蔡局長明彥：好。"],["沈委員伯洋：但就是建議這個部分可能要更常態性，而且可能要廣納更多組織進來。"],["蔡局長明彥：有，很簡單地說明一下，我們每年都有針對這些不同的樣態來做演練。另外，國安局除了本局以外，也會整合我們相關的國安單位，我沒有記錯的話，我們今年的施訓課程可能就有八十幾種不同的課程，施訓完之後會有四千多人次國內國安團隊的資安人員會參與相關的訓練，所以這確實是我們相關的工作重點，謝謝委員提醒。"],["沈委員伯洋：相關的一些民間企業我覺得當然也是可以納入，因為畢竟現在對中國駭客的分類標準，每個人分類標準也不太一樣，APT40、APT41是其中一套，然後也有很多套，所以這個部分大家要怎麼think，我覺得當然是滿重要的。"],["蔡局長明彥：對，很重要，我們發生過APT31跟APT41，我們跟國外的友盟在討論過程中，發現我們在界定他們的行為樣態上，好像有不同的見解，也是透過不斷地交流來釐清實際的狀況是怎麼樣。"],["沈委員伯洋：最後一個因為時間因素我來不及講，我稍微講一下就好了，最後就是間諜，以間諜來講，現在間諜直接去接觸關鍵基礎設施已經屢見不鮮了，其實在國外都有發生，而對於我們這些高風險人物的控管，剛剛楚茵委員有提到，像是立法委員其實會接觸到非常多的機密。我這邊幫忙update一下，昨天在程序委員會，一樣的案子過了，過了也不是因為他們不擋，是因為他們昨天人數不夠，但是我們還是很希望像這樣的一個法案能夠被討論，在被討論的這個過程當中，因為它一定也會進到國防及外交委員會，希望到時候國安局也能夠提供修法的一些看法，讓我們知道要怎麼去更好的防護間諜去接觸關鍵基礎設施的一些樣貌。"],["蔡局長明彥：應該的，有需要我們來提供專業意見，我們來提供，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：下面我們請馬文君委員來質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-16","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","林楚茵","沈伯洋","王定宇","陳冠廷","洪申翰","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","黃仁","邱志偉","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，\n以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":4.31721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.6715937499999995,"end":5.835968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.37596875,"end":7.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.61159375,"end":10.965968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.965968750000002,"end":11.792843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.792843750000003,"end":11.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.82659375,"end":11.961593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.961593750000002,"end":12.029093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.14721875,"end":20.11221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.80409375,"end":21.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.28909375,"end":26.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.456593750000003,"end":30.91221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.96284375,"end":31.03034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.35096875,"end":32.31284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.75096875,"end":36.93659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.970343750000005,"end":84.38909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.76034375,"end":132.98909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.63346875,"end":86.76846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.12096875,"end":99.64409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.09471875,"end":132.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.65159375000002,"end":132.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.92159375,"end":133.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.49534375000002,"end":134.82846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.44034375,"end":170.97471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.60659375,"end":151.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":170.97471875000002,"end":199.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.18096875,"end":385.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.65846875,"end":453.54659375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.52221875000004,"end":393.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.90471875000003,"end":403.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.46034375000005,"end":411.57846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.28034375000004,"end":429.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":453.54659375000006,"end":505.42034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":492.05534375,"end":492.32534375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":499.56471875000005,"end":499.90221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":505.11659375000005,"end":531.0534687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":531.0534687500001,"end":545.5490937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":544.90784375,"end":558.28971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":558.28971875,"end":601.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.4897187500001,"end":604.93221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":603.83534375,"end":605.5734687500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.309,"end":26.223,"text":"謝謝主席 那有請這個局長跟那個國土安辦的主任 謝謝林主任好 謝謝主席 沈委員早早不好意思 我因為問題有點混在一起 所以想說一次就問兩位這樣子然後看誰比較能夠回答就直接回答這樣子那我今天最主要是想要問幾個小地方但我先從一個小案例問起"},{"start":37.412,"end":56.641,"text":"我先從這個鐵路的部分開始問起就是說我們的高鐵的這個鐵道系統前陣子受到這一個受到破壞 這不是敵人 我只是說可能而已那它其實呢因為那一個供電的纜線跟訊號的那個纜線看起來非常的相像那當時的人員是說他以為是這個"},{"start":57.521,"end":83.519,"text":"他們的研判以為是說可以偷的東西結果發現是這個但因為在目前的架構之下我們這一個高鐵本身的這個很多的電線這個不是那個電線那一個光纖它其實也有給很多人使用所以本身它也算是一個關鍵基礎設施那我想問一下說這件事情的後續就是說我們對於像這種事情因為畢竟它很簡單的被破壞到了那這件事情的後續就是我們要怎麼去防範不知道後來有沒有什麼這個"},{"start":84.95,"end":105.806,"text":"就樣態我先做說明再請國土辦計劃作為的部分再做一些補充就威脅樣態來講我們剛剛在書面報告也跟委員們有稍微提到這個部分人為威脅的部分他可能因為刻意的蓄意的破壞或是我們局的案例也曾經有類似剪斷台鐵的電纜的一個相關的案例那影響到正常的一個"},{"start":106.687,"end":106.747,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":133.675,"end":150.485,"text":"這個案子我們有去了解那已經有處理的一個進展了那目前就整個台鐵的這個光線的網路的配置它其實光線只要剪斷因為它是迴路型的就知道哪裡破壞所以一定要維持行車的安全"},{"start":150.925,"end":151.085,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":171.772,"end":198.085,"text":"那我為什麼提這一點有幾個因素第一個它是一個實體的破壞實體的破壞其實跟駭客的這個防護比起來那個方法會比較不一樣這是第一個那第二個就是因為520其實也快到了那當然會有比較大的運輸量會在這個519或520發生那對我們來講在前陣子上一次的520他們最主要就是攻擊中油那在這幾個月照理說他們能夠攻擊假設今天中國想要去做干預他能夠攻擊的關鍵基礎設施"},{"start":202.648,"end":221.867,"text":"他的能夠攻擊的關鍵基礎設施我覺得蠻重要的當然還包含我們的電網那之前我在看這些業者相關的一些內部資料就發現在這幾個月他們攻擊電網的這個機率變高了我覺得這是一個警訊那第二個警訊就是說呢通常中國他去攻擊任何的東西他一定要搭配假消息的攻擊"},{"start":223.088,"end":248.689,"text":"在過去兩個月跟電有關的假消息變得非常多來自於中國那我覺得這是很特別的一件事情是因為以前會講電相關的假消息比較多都是國民黨很少是中國中國今天會加入我認為是一件很詭異的事情所以這方面的防護我覺得可能要特別注意那接下來我想講的就是現在因為真的要去破壞這種關鍵基礎設施除了實體之外另外還有一個是駭客攻擊然後另外還有一個就是間諜"},{"start":249.909,"end":276.711,"text":"我想先講一下駭客攻擊的部分這個是在2023、5月所以大概已經快一年以前了就是那個福特颱風這件事情那當時呢他當然最主要是在攻擊美國的關鍵基礎設施從中國的攻擊那他不是在攻擊台灣但是我們在看一些相關報導的時候因為他有去碰關島啦那去碰關島之後呢結果呢有媒體分析認為說他們在做這個攻擊其實最主要的目標可能是台灣"},{"start":277.812,"end":296.052,"text":"這是大概一年前發生的那跟我們剛剛前面講的目前我們看到一些情資的研判或許有一些重疊的地方那我這邊要問的是因為我今天有看到這一個兩個單位的一個夜報然後裡面有提到怎麼做防護啊怎麼做預防等等之類的所以我這邊稍微整理了一下就是當時這個我先暫時跳過因為這個剛剛這個我們的曾鴻康委員有提過這個電纜的問題"},{"start":299.896,"end":325.299,"text":"就是說關島當時做了這樣的一個回應第一個是他們的國民警衛對他們的那個Guard舉辦了一個大概100人的一個這個討論那他參與的人呢因為他也是強調類似有像我們全民防衛那種Hall of Government那種整體這個的回應那參與的人包括他們的國土安全局、技術辦公室還有FBI還有聯邦的緊急事務管理署印太司令部、網路司令部等等之類的也就是說他們參與的人員很廣"},{"start":327.14,"end":356.128,"text":"為了應對這件對於關鍵基礎設施的一個攻擊然後接下來呢他去做了一個best practice就是說他們直接去分析說那他們現在的優勢是什麼他們的劣勢是什麼如果下一次他們還要做攻擊的話要做什麼樣的預判然後制定了章程那因為呢應對台灣現在來做的這個應處的話呢目前我們有看到第一個就是我們的匯報嘛但是我們匯報能夠涵蓋的成績跟這一個有沒有落差這第一個然後第二個就是呢相關的這個章程"},{"start":356.488,"end":363.69,"text":"就是我看這個我記得是國土辦這邊有提到就是有相關的規範跟張誠簡單來有一個類似SOP的東西那這個東西呢跟這個所謂的張誠他能不能夠有這個best practice會不會譬如說每幾個月相關的單位他能夠來做練習練習的時候呢他甚至有這種紅藍的對抗然後對抗之後呢今天又分析出來說發現我們的弱勢在哪裡這個機制有沒有在進行就是我們現在業報裡面講的跟現在我們看到關島在做的它有沒有落差還是非常類似"},{"start":385.675,"end":413.995,"text":"我先就那個個案的部分做個補充然後就中共的颱風系列的駭客團體我們有長期的在關注那這些不同的颱風系列駭客團體到底他的攻擊手法樣態是什麼以及他們的攻擊的目標聚焦在哪些的特定目標那我們都有做一些相關的分析那同時也跟國外的一些相關的機關來分享我們在情資上所得到的一個訊息來做一個比對那我覺得在進行這樣的一個"},{"start":414.275,"end":414.455,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":429.645,"end":452.719,"text":"至於我們應備的一個相關的體制來講有所謂的政策匯報層級那也有所謂的指導綱要的一個部分那針對這種可能的威脅的樣態各部會也會來加強做一些溝通跟協作然後也透過必要的一個演練來強化我們的韌性那大概整體的架構是用這種方式在運作"},{"start":454.26,"end":482.597,"text":"我為什麼問這個問題就是因為當然這可能有點事實機密就是說我們現在對於這個中國駭客的分類譬如說他們前期之前在做的可能像中油的這一次可能APT41那就像剛剛局長提到的我們今天跟美方或者說跟其他的這些國家在分享情報的時候我們當然可以先去分類去預判說這次是APT40還是APT10、APT41可以做一些分類但是我剛剛想前面講的就是說當我們做完分類之後有沒有相關的一些演練"},{"start":483.337,"end":504.371,"text":"因為就等於說要有一個對抗,也就是說我們要怎麼去分析就是說我們現在的優勢劣勢這個部分,那我們多久來做一次,那這個部分如果說這個不宜在這邊講的話,那我們就私底下到時候,如果要到辦公室討論的話這個沒有什麼問題,但是就是建議這個部分可能要更常態性的,而且可能要廣大更多的組織進來這樣子。"},{"start":506.132,"end":531.028,"text":"很簡單說明一下我們每年都有針對這些不同的樣態來做演練那另外國安局除了我們本身本局以外也會整合我們相關的國安單位我沒有記錯的話我們今年會私訊的課程可能就有八十幾種不同的課程那私訊完之後會有四千多人次的國內國安團隊的治安人員會參與相關的訓練所以這確實是我們相關的工作重點謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":531.568,"end":556.384,"text":"那相關的一些民間的一些企業呢我覺得當然也是可以納入因為畢竟現在對中國駭客的一個分類標準每個人分類標準也不太一樣apt40 41是其中一套嘛然後也有很多套啦所以這個部分大家要怎麼think我覺得當然是蠻重要的對很重要我們發生過apt31跟apt41我們跟國外的友盟在討論過程當中發現了我們在界定上他們行為樣態好像有不同的見解那也是透過不斷的交流來釐清實際的狀況是怎麼樣"},{"start":558.925,"end":581.494,"text":"最後一個因為時間因素我就來不及講我稍微講一下就好了就是最後就是間諜因為畢竟以間諜來講現在間諜直接去接觸關鍵基礎設施已經屢見不鮮了那其實在國外都有發生那對於我們這些高風險人物的控管剛剛楚英委員其實有提到就是說其實像立法委員會接觸到非常多的機密那當然我這邊幫忙update一下就是因為昨天在程序委員會一樣的案子結果過了"},{"start":582.734,"end":582.774,"text":"謝謝主席,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151925","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151925","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b99d6b10f484a7c711e4149ad024bf7a87f5010e6307119198f6a9c70dc4894db5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林國成","委員發言時間":"09:59:40 - 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一) 委員傅崐萁等33 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員傅崐萁等41 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 委員洪孟楷等25 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、 ( 四 ) 委員翁曉玲等 18 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案。"},{"start":175.057,"end":194.575,"text":"回歸正傳主委大家都知道啦你們名單NCC的名單已經提出這個叫做什麼壓線提出了無新意可是這裡又有一個陰謀我希望主委知道的你就回答不知道的你就說不知道"},{"start":195.629,"end":199.79,"text":"立法院第四條條文修正草案．立法院第四條條文修正草案．"},{"start":217.608,"end":240.359,"text":"你有沒有可能7月31你就自動辭職我不要留戀你是要繼續幹或者你要辭職7月31沒有辭職的問題是任期屆滿的那你就要離職了但你任期屆滿你敢跟全國人民講說我不會我不會所以你們講的這些假提名真拖延的問題沒有這回事"},{"start":241.664,"end":245.767,"text":"立法院第11會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第11會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法"},{"start":262.679,"end":272.909,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13條條文修正草案．"},{"start":288.183,"end":296.985,"text":"條文修正草案．一）立法院第十三條條文修正草案．一）立法院第十三條條文修正草案．一．立法院第十三條條文修正草案．一．立法院第十三條條文修正草案．一．立法院第十三條條文修正草案．一．立法院第十三條條文"},{"start":314.449,"end":318.691,"text":"立法院第四條條文修正草案．立法院第四條條文修正草案．立法院第四條條文修正草案．"},{"start":341.761,"end":345.602,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案．立法院第12屆第13條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":357.426,"end":374.095,"text":"所以你竟然還指責我們調的通通都是重要議案跟媒體有關人民有關的當然都是重要議案啦所以我跟你講你既然可以認定那為什麼你不認定什麼可以給什麼不能給為什麼通通不給"},{"start":375.315,"end":402.555,"text":"中央議案是由大院來認定的,你的議案是什麼?什麼大院?委員會認定、開會認定過的東西,你還在講這個?最後,最後,主委,我要跟你講一句話,你不要玩滑弄滑,逃避百難,不要成為有史以來NCC的主委是最爛的爛官,這是我必須給你一個鼓勵,好不好?不會這樣子的,好,謝謝委員,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151924","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151924","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b4c448b974be72c741e4149ad024bf7a87f5010e630711919a26d91266f61260a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳俊宇","委員發言時間":"09:52:39 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NCC最主要的基本目的還有原則，我們所有行為都在落實這個。比如說，保障言論自由這個部分來講，我們落實相關執照換照、申設相關議題；對於確保黨政軍退出媒體這個部分，我們在相關換照，或是裁罰，或者是評鑑的時候，都有確實的去執行。雖然這個部分，的確有一些因為法律規定，我們在法院是有敗訴，但是我們現在已經在積極推動相關的修法工作，其他部分，都是落實在我們平時的監理或者是申換照裡面，以上報告。"],["陳委員俊宇：所以對於任期內，我們剛剛講的這個部分，應該在主委的作為方面都有落實？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：都有，在我們相關的制度都有。"],["陳委員俊宇：我還是回到我們今天要討論的人事提名部分，就我們現行組織來看，委員編制7人，任期4年，任滿得連任，由行政院長提名，並經過立法院同意後任命。現行的制度設計確保NCC的專業和獨立性，我想請教我們主委，如果改成照立法院政黨比例來推派的話，可能有違大法官解釋意旨之外，還可能會對我們NCC造成什麼樣的影響？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：簡單來講，以我們NCC以往的運作狀況來講，政黨比例透過這種人事的設計就會進入到NCC內部，這種政黨比例鬥爭，坦白講，可能我們整個NCC的政務會有難以推動的相關情況。我舉一個例子來講，以往我們的正副主委是互推產生，但就曾經產生過我們7個委員裡面有所謂的4個人一組，3個人一組的問題，這對於我們後來的政務推動是非常的不利。如果再加上這種所謂政黨比例的推動，我想NCC內部可能就像大院一樣相關爭議會不斷。所以內部上來講，這整個制度與獨立機關的本質上就有牴觸，對政務上的推動也是有所不利。"],["陳委員俊宇：我們這一次送審的名單是4位嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對。"],["陳委員俊宇：要更替的是4位。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["陳委員俊宇：假設這4位如果沒有順利通過的話，未來對我們NCC推動的過程會造成什麼樣的影響？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個就是我們組織法裡面規定，如果新任沒有順利產生就任的時候，就由原任委員繼續留任，避免我們整個政務會中斷的問題。我舉一個例子來講，我們NCC每一年大概有好幾萬件行政處分，可能大家都只關注到電視的申設、換照啦、電信業者的合併，其實很重要的，像我們的手機審驗，只要國內所有射頻器材相關審驗都是NCC在做，我們必須做這些行政處分。如果NCC癱瘓了，所有的手機審驗、通訊設備審驗、所有的換照等等全部都會停擺，這個對國家會產生非常嚴重的衝擊。"],["陳委員俊宇：這是手機的部分，那民生問題會不會造成什麼……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：比如說廣播啦、電視啦、通訊啦，比如說基地台這些……"],["陳委員俊宇：它們的換照。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，還有緊急災難的時候，比如相關設備的修復或者應變，這個部分來講的確會產生很多的問題。"],["陳委員俊宇：我想NCC做為掌管我們國家通訊傳播事業的獨立機關，我們都同意在人事上應該以專業為重，也要超越黨派，同時尊重NCC委員們所擁有的專業，以及代表的多元價值。國會也應該基於權力分立原則，尊重憲政體制下的職權行使，在符合權責相符的界線下，我們共同來監督，還有制衡行政部門的施政，應該朝向這個目標，我相信NCC在推動的過程應該會更加順遂吧！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，當然。"],["陳委員俊宇：主委，您在7月份即將任期屆滿，您對於後續的NCC有什麼期許？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們還是一樣依照第一條的規定，後續因為整個臺灣、整個國家面對所謂數位匯流以後，數位科技創新，尤其是除了傳統的廣播電視以外，包括在網際網路傳播，我想最近很多議題都跟這個有關係，我們也希望NCC未來除了傳統的廣播電視的監理以外，對於未來整個網際網路傳播的相關治理可以更加的落實。"],["陳委員俊宇：除了剛剛講的這個部分，我還是期待NCC也能夠在電信打詐方面投入更多的心力，一起來防堵這種詐騙的行為。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是，這當然。"],["陳委員俊宇：因為我們這幾年所累積下來的詐騙案件，去年一整年就有三萬七千多件，我們整個臺灣被詐的財損恐怕超過88億以上。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：當然。"],["陳委員俊宇：所以這部分也要請我們NCC所有同仁應該要更加用心，來守護我們國人的財產。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是的，我們持續努力，並和相關機關配合謝謝。"],["陳委員俊宇：以上。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。下一位請林國成委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","林國成","莊瑞雄","柯建銘","沈發惠","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","黃健豪","李昆澤","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","游顥","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","林沛祥","陳雪生"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 一) 委員傅崐萁等33 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員傅崐萁等41 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 委員洪孟楷等25 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、 ( 四 ) 委員翁曉玲等 18 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133701_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.430343750000002,"end":11.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.164093750000003,"end":13.429718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.26471875,"end":17.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.05784375,"end":18.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.08721875,"end":72.82971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.85659375,"end":35.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.00846875,"end":36.16034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.57409375,"end":61.860968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.15034375,"end":89.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.13096875000001,"end":89.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.24909375,"end":114.61221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.69659375,"end":160.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.38909375,"end":138.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.13034375,"end":147.40034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.15346875,"end":173.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.21471875,"end":181.57221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.01096875000002,"end":197.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.38409375,"end":199.81409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.91534375,"end":205.11284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.16346875000002,"end":209.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.27659375000002,"end":214.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.51221875000002,"end":217.90409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.30909375000002,"end":231.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.09596875000003,"end":276.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.05096875000004,"end":281.18534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.83096875,"end":287.27721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.57721875000004,"end":285.42096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.46284375,"end":296.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.42346875000004,"end":316.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.23034375000003,"end":338.67846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.47596875000005,"end":339.77534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.77534375000005,"end":348.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":345.79971875,"end":346.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.42784375,"end":354.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.05159375,"end":357.84846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.13534375,"end":377.25471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.40659375,"end":411.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.32471875000005,"end":389.33721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":402.36471875,"end":402.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.34659375,"end":413.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.13534375,"end":412.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":413.23221875,"end":413.78909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.13909375000003,"end":415.39221875000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.451,"end":11.675,"text":"好謝謝主席我們有請陳主委麻煩主委謝謝"},{"start":16.491,"end":39.353,"text":"主委早委員長我們今天要審查的是NCC委員的人事提名還有我們相關組織法的修正草案那當初我們設立NCC組織法的第一條裡面有寫到這個其中的幾項第一項就是要落實憲法保障的言論自由謹守黨政軍退出媒體的這種精神"},{"start":40.034,"end":58.451,"text":"第二條是要促進通訊傳播健全發展維護媒體專業的自主第三是有效辦理通訊傳播管理事項確保通訊傳播市場公平有效的競爭第四是保障消費者及尊重弱勢權益第五是促進多元文化的均衡發展"},{"start":59.051,"end":71.719,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案 案件,並提升國家競爭力等等。那我想請教我們陳主委就是您在任期內對於上述的這幾項您認為在您任期內有幾項已經達到了?"},{"start":73.668,"end":98.354,"text":"第一條是我們設立NCC的最主要的基本的目的還有原則我們所有的行為都在落實這個比如說保障言論自由這個部分來講我們落實這些相關的執照、換照、申涉的這些相關的議題那對確保黨政軍推出媒體這個部分來講的話我們在相關的這些換照或是裁罰或者是評鑑的時候都有去確實的去執行"},{"start":99.474,"end":100.575,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案"},{"start":115.024,"end":140.634,"text":"所以對於任期內我們剛剛講的這部分應該在主委的這個作為方面應該都有落實都有的在我們相關的制度都有好那我還是回到我們今天要討論的這個人事提名的部分那就我們現行的組織來看我們委員是編制7人那任期4年任滿得連任由行政院長提名並經過立法院同意後任命"},{"start":141.414,"end":160.274,"text":"那現行的制度設計確保NCC的專業和獨立性我想請教我們主委如果我們這個改成照立法院政黨的比例來推派的話那可能有違大法官解釋的這個意旨之外還可能會對我們NCC造成什麼樣的影響"},{"start":161.195,"end":176.805,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第13屆第14會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第15會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第16會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第17會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第18會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第19會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第20會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第21會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第22會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第22會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第23會期"},{"start":182.088,"end":192.375,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組"},{"start":210.367,"end":231.596,"text":"所以內部上來講對整個這個制度對獨立機關本來本質上就有抵觸然後對制度上的推動是有所不利好那我們這一次送審的這個名單是四位嘛對要這個要更替的是四位是那假設這四位如果沒有順利通過的話未來對我們NCC推動的過程裡面會造成什麼樣的影響"},{"start":232.328,"end":258.746,"text":"這個就是因為我們組織法裡面規定說如果新任的還沒有只會順利產生就任的時候由原任的委員繼續留任就是這樣就避免這個所謂的我們的整個政務會中斷的問題我舉一個例子來講的話我們NCC呢每一年大概有好幾萬件的這種行政處分各位可以看可能大家都只是關注到所謂電視的什麼伸手換照啦電信業者合併其實很重要比如說像我們手機"},{"start":259.667,"end":271.554,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,以及其他通訊傳播委員會組織法及其他通訊傳播委員會組織法及其他通訊傳播委員會組織法及其他通訊傳播委員會組織法及其他通訊傳播委員會組織法及其他通訊傳播委員會組織法及其他通訊傳播委員會組織法及其他通訊傳播委員會組織法及其他通訊傳播委員會組織法及其他通訊傳播委員會組織法及其他通訊傳播委員會組織法及其他通訊傳播委員會組織法及其他通訊傳播"},{"start":277.073,"end":280.898,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案例"},{"start":297.883,"end":316.232,"text":"我認為我們NCC作為掌管我們國家的通訊傳播事業的獨立機關我們都同意在人事上應該以專業為重也要超越黨派同時尊重NCC委員們所擁有的專業以及代表的多元價值"},{"start":317.974,"end":339.873,"text":"國會也應該基於權力分立的這個原則來尊重憲政體制下的這個職權的行使在符合權責的相符的界限下我們共同來監督還有製衡行政部門的這個施政應該朝向這個目標我相信NCC在推動的這個過程應該會更加順遂吧是當然是好"},{"start":340.273,"end":348.572,"text":"那對於說這個主委您在7月份即將到任那您對後續的NCC有什麼期許?"},{"start":349.468,"end":361.614,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第十"},{"start":377.381,"end":380.663,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案"},{"start":399.517,"end":402.722,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院及第十條條文修正草案．"}]}},{"id":"151923","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151923","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bd1c257b162c42f4c1853afabeb86d4497f5010e630711919e00fe85888996f755ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林楚茵","委員發言時間":"09:50:48 - 10:00:48","影片長度":"00:10:00","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-16"},"duration":600,"end_time":"2024-05-01T10:00:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T09:50:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":187,"blocks":[["林委員楚茵：（9時50分）謝謝主席，我們有請蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，林委員早。"],["林委員楚茵：早安。我們來討論有關於國家安全的部分，我想這個是局長跟您的同仁每天都要面對的，我們知道接觸了機敏資料，對於這些接觸機敏資料的人員來講，如果到中國一定都有他的限制，以國防部的話，只要是現役或退職人員進入所謂的大陸地區會有一個機密的限制，這個機密如果為絕對機密者是5年，如果為極機密是4年，機密為3年，這樣一個年限的限制，想請問一下局長，包括這個法案制定的過程，它的用意是在哪裡？"],["蔡局長明彥：主要當時在兩岸人民關係條例會觸及到這樣的法律條文當然是基於對於國家機敏資訊的保護，所以當時的主要對象是針對行政部門的各個官員，也包括到地方政府的主要首長，在赴陸之前可能要經過相關聯審機制，才能夠確定赴陸期間會不會把機敏資訊有外洩的可能性。"],["林委員楚茵：好，所以所謂的絕對機密、極機密或是機密，是由當時他們所曾經參與的會議或是可以接觸的文件來做限制嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，因為就國家的機密等級本來就是分為剛剛委員所提到的這幾類機密，現在就是依照機密等級的機敏程度來針對進入對岸的管制期間做相關期程的安排。"],["林委員楚茵：好，本席會問這個是因為我們知道最近新的國會開議之後，許多委員們，尤其在司法及法制委員會最熱烈討論的就是有關於國會改革，那麼在國會改革的過程當中，外界都把焦點放在所謂官員藐視國會這個部分要關3年，但是事實上我自己個人一直認為國會改革的面向有很多，不只是我們現在在質詢臺上我對你的質詢，包括什麼？還包括就是立法委員本身如何讓自己的國會運作、自己的質詢能夠變得更好。其實我剛剛一直在詢問你的是有關於絕對機密、極機密或者是機密到底要如何界定，因為就以我們國防及外交委員會來講好了，以我們自己所在的這個會期到現在，我們一共有一次的機密考察，兩次的機密會議；一個是到南部去看我們潛艦相關現場的狀況，再來就是包括局長你也來報告過一次，國防部也來報告過一次，那麼如果就您的專業來判斷，這一次的考察跟兩次的機密，它應該是屬於極機密還是機密？"],["蔡局長明彥：就行政部門對於絕對機密、極機密跟機密，我們有我們分類的標準，那主要的裁核權還是在部會首長、部長級的官員來做相關的裁核，包括我本人，另外在委員會的部分，我想這部分應該要依照貴院貴委員會有關於機密分類有沒有一個內部規範，我們會以官員來備詢，我們來……"],["林委員楚茵：所以就變成我們的內規就對了？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，我們尊重貴院的規範。"],["林委員楚茵：但是可以確定的是它絕對是機密吧！"],["蔡局長明彥：是。"],["林委員楚茵：因為我想在場的大家，包括我在內，都知道這樣的機密會議除了人員要有嚴格的管控，甚至於只有立委可以進來，立委的手機、行動裝置都得要放到外面，然後我們看的每一份資料上面都有編列編號，甚至於寫上每一個委員的大名，你在領取的時候要簽名，你在交回的時候要簽名，而且要簽下保密協定，就算它不是極機密、超級機密也是機密。那如果是這樣的話，我認為刮別人的鬍子要把自己的鬍子刮乾淨，我們今天在立法院，我們可以定藐視國會罪要官員關3年，那麼如果要講到國會改革的時候，我自己認為以身作則，立法委員接觸了機密，但是如果馬上到中國去，然後接觸到的是中國相關人士，那麼在這樣言談之間的時候，真的必須要自己先做好自己的這個部分，因為這些機密也很有可能是官員、退休將領或是現職將領，或是行政官員，剛剛你也講包括連地方首長，會不會立法委員反而成為洩密的漏洞呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：我想尊重委員的一些意見，就像我剛剛有跟委員說明到的，就我們國安的角度來講，我們會認為對於國家重要機密的保護是非常重要的，那在過去幾年我們的法規規範裡面，對於行政部門已經做了一個蠻嚴格的規範，假如立法部門也能夠有相關的討論，或有一些相關規範或自律機制的話，若需要國安局來提供相關意見，我們都非常的樂意。"],["林委員楚茵：所以那我想就教國安局的意見就是，包括現場沈伯洋委員，還有我、莊瑞雄委員、蘇巧慧委員及王定宇委員，我們曾經提出有關於兩岸人民關係條例的修正，就是希望民意代表跟其他從事我國相關利益而曾到立法院來參加機密會議者，如果進入大陸地區必須要經過申請，但是很可惜的是，這樣的法案連討論都沒有辦法討論，在程序委員會就直接被封殺了，我只就教您的專業，您不用擔心，因為藐視國會罪還沒有通過，就算是您現在要下來，法律通常不溯及既往，您可以回答我的問題，就專業來說，這樣的法案是不是把我剛剛所講的參與過機密會議，但是直接沒有所謂的任何時間，是第一時間喔！4月份的機密會議結束，馬上隔一週就到中國去，這是不是一個漏洞？這樣的漏洞是不是應該把它補強起來？"],["蔡局長明彥：對，委員剛剛提到的一些提案內容的精神，我們大概可以理解主要的關鍵重點在哪裡，這部分我剛剛也做了一些說明，但是對於一些提案過程當中，在立法院的討論以及程序……"],["林委員楚茵：沒關係，你只要回答我……"],["蔡局長明彥：對，這個我沒辦法去評論。"],["林委員楚茵：這樣的法案是不是有助於把這樣的漏洞補強起來？而在其他國家對於國家機密的保護是不是也有類似這樣的規範？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們尊重委員在立法院裡面的討論，畢竟還是在你們院內做必要的討論。那國外的話，確實在過去這幾年對於這種國家安全的法制、反間諜、反滲透的法制，確實非常積極的在立法，我粗淺的理解，沒有記錯的話，過去這兩、三年應該有美國、英國、法國、荷蘭、日本、韓國、澳洲、印度等11個國家，再加上歐盟，都有通過相關的立法規範，主要重點都是著重在怎麼樣來界定間諜的行為、怎麼樣來加重相關的罰則，所以這已經變成是國際社會在這個部分關切的一個重點，也是一個主要的立法趨勢。"],["林委員楚茵：所以說對我來講，我認為像這樣的法案其實是為了讓國家更好，而且我也希望立法委員是可以做一個表率，不要永遠一隻手指頭指著別人，只看到那一隻手指頭，我自己認為我們可以做到好的、可以讓國家更好的，國會改革應該是從我們自己改革開始，而不是一把刀砍向別人，我覺得這個根本就是滑天下之大稽啊！","接下來，我要請主席幫我邀請國土辦的林主任。"],["主席：請林主任。"],["林主任傑：委員早。"],["林委員楚茵：林主任，有關於國家安全的部分，關鍵基礎設施您在報告也特別提到了，其實媒體也是其中的一環，那麼因為時間有限，我就先總結來說，在整體來講，媒體是我們非常重要的一個傳播工具，包括中央社、包括民視，甚至於聯合報，都曾經遭受到強烈的攻擊，不論是要駭入竊取資料，又或者是造成相關瀏覽數量暴增變成癱瘓，甚至於也曾經出現過不明新聞標題，像這樣一個所謂媒體遭受攻擊的過程當中，紅色資訊戰它今天一旦可以駭入之後，有可能成為發錯假訊息的一個管道，我們知道現在臺灣每一個人幾乎都是人手一機，甚至於兩機，行動裝置都非常多，在這個部分你們有沒有考慮到或者是協助媒體強化它的資訊安全？"],["林主任傑：謝謝委員，因為部分重要的媒體設施也是我們關鍵基礎設施的一環，所以相關的這些媒體設施也都是我們資通安全管理法所規範的對象，因此在人員、設備、技術、稽核的規定都有相關的一些規定，包含要內稽，也要外稽，外稽就是由資安署，甚至是國土辦也會會同一起去做一些瞭解跟協助，當然這是事前的防範，如果事中遇到了一些相關應變處置作為的時候，政府也有相關資源會來幫忙做一些協助，例如遇到DDoS的攻擊，當然我們就要幫它清洗流量、做一些疏導，大概都有相關的機制會來做處理，謝謝委員的提醒。"],["林委員楚茵：因為時間已經到了，有關於協助媒體建構更安全的系統的部分，如果你們有一些後續的資料，是不是可以提供給我的辦公室？"],["林主任傑：是，謝謝委員。"],["林委員楚茵：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請沈伯洋委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-16","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","林楚茵","沈伯洋","王定宇","陳冠廷","洪申翰","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","黃仁","邱志偉","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，\n以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":2.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.27534375,"end":3.0853437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.13909375,"end":11.708468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.214718750000003,"end":53.744093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.19971875,"end":79.76534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.64471875000001,"end":69.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.88909375,"end":71.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.02409375,"end":71.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.22659375,"end":71.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.76534375,"end":91.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.56096875,"end":108.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER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主席我們有請蔡局長請蔡局長好 謝謝主席 臨委員長"},{"start":12.744,"end":36.527,"text":"早安我們來討論一個就是有關於國家安全的部分我想這個是局長跟您的同仁每天都要面對的那麼就是我們知道其實接觸了機敏的資料的話那麼對於這些接觸機敏資料的人員來講的話那麼一定如果到所謂中國的話都有它的限制那這個以國防部的話是在現役或退職人員當中只要進入所謂的大陸地區的話"},{"start":37.668,"end":53.299,"text":"那麼會有一個機密的限制,那麼這個機密呢,如果是絕對機密者呢,是5年,那麼如果是即機密是4年,機密為3年,這樣的一個年限的限制,我想請問一下局長,包括這個法案的制定的過程,它的用意是在哪裡?"},{"start":54.364,"end":79.558,"text":"對我想主要當時在聯合人民關係條例會去觸及到這樣的一個法律條文那當然是基於對於國家基民資訊的保護所以當時的主要的對象是針對我們行政部門的各個官員也包括到地方政府的主要的首長那在附入之前可能要經過相關的一個聯審的機制才能夠確定到附入期間會不會把基民的資訊有外洩的可能性"},{"start":80.058,"end":108.345,"text":"所以說這個所謂的絕對機密或即機密或是機密這個是由當時他們所曾經參與的會議或是可以接觸的文件來做限制嗎?對,因為就國家的機密等級本來就是分為有關委員所提到的這幾類的機密那現在就是依照機密的等級的這種機敏的程度來針對進入對岸的一個管制的期間來做一個相關期程的一個安排"},{"start":108.965,"end":124.203,"text":"本席會問這個是因為我們知道最近這個新的國會開議之後那麼許多的這些委員們尤其在司法法治委員會最熱烈討論的就是有關於國會改革那麼在國會改革的過程當中外界都把這個焦點放在這個所謂藐視官員"},{"start":127.947,"end":143.761,"text":"官員藐視國會這個部分要關三年但是事實上我自己個人一直認為國會改革的面向有很多不只是我們現在在質詢台上我對你的質詢包括什麼還包括了就是立法委員自己本身如何讓自己"},{"start":145.002,"end":166.675,"text":"國會運作自己的質詢能夠變得更好其實我剛剛一直在詢問你的是有關於絕對機密及機密或者是機密到底要如何界定因為就以我們國防外交委員會來講好了以我們自己現在所在的這個會期到現在我們一共有一次的機密考察兩次的機密會議一個是到南部去看我們的潛艦相關的這個現場的狀況再來就是包括局長你也來過報告一次國防部也來報告過"},{"start":173.8,"end":175.582,"text":"行政部門對於絕對機密及機密跟機密我們有一個分類的標準"},{"start":188.817,"end":213.064,"text":"主要才和權還是在部會首長部長級的官員來做相關的才和包括我本人那另外在委員會的部分我想這部分應該要依照貴院貴委員會有關於機密分類的一個有沒有一個內部的一個規範那我們會所以這變成是變成我們的內規就對了對我們來尊重貴院的一個規範但是可以確定的是它絕對是機密吧是因為"},{"start":214.284,"end":218.491,"text":"我想在場的大家包括我在內都知道這樣的機密會議"},{"start":220.191,"end":243.585,"text":"除了人員要有嚴格的管控甚至於只有立委可以進來立委的手機、行動裝置都得要放到外面然後我們看的每一份資料上面都有編列編號甚至於寫上每一個委員的大名你在領取的時候要簽名你在交回的時候要簽名而且要簽下保密協定就算它不是極機密超級機密也是機密那如果是這樣的話齁"},{"start":245.387,"end":262.086,"text":"我認為刮別人的鬍子要把自己的鬍子刮乾淨我們今天在立法院我們可以定藐視國會最要官員關三年那麼如果要講到國會改革的時候我自己認為以身作則立法委員接觸了機密但是如果馬上到中國去"},{"start":262.967,"end":285.845,"text":"然後接觸到的是中國相關的人士那麼在這樣的言談之間的時候真的必須要自己先做好自己的這個部分因為這些機密也有很有可能是官員退休降臨或是現職降臨或是行政官員剛剛你也講到包括連地方首長那會不會立法委員反而成為洩密的漏洞呢?"},{"start":287.402,"end":312.157,"text":"我想尊重委員的一些意見像我剛剛有跟委員說明到的就我們國安的角度來講我們會認為對於國家重要機密的保護是非常重要的那在過去幾年我們的法規規範裡面對於行政部門已經做了相關的一個蠻嚴格的規範那假如立法部門也能夠有相關的討論或有一些相關的規範或自律的機制的話那我想需要國安局來提供相關意見我們都非常樂意"},{"start":312.517,"end":338.038,"text":"好,所以,那我想就叫國安局的意見就是,包括現場沈博洋委員,還有我,中央衛生委員,蘇巧慧委員跟王定宇,我們曾經提出有關於兩岸人民關係條例的修正,就是希望民意代表跟其他從事我國相關利益,然後曾到立法院來參加機密會議者,如果進入大陸地區必須要經過申請,但是很可惜的是這樣的法案,連討論都沒有辦法討論,在程序委員會就直接被封殺了。"},{"start":339.813,"end":351.44,"text":"我只就教您的專業您不用擔心因為藐視國會罪還沒有通過就算是您現在下來這個法律通常不溯及既往您可以回答我的問題就專業來說這樣的法案是不是把我剛剛所講的參與過機密會議但是直接沒有所謂的任何的時間第一時間喔三月份"},{"start":362.041,"end":368.387,"text":"對,委員剛剛提到的一些提案的內容的精神我們大概可以理解主要的關切重點在哪裡那這部分我剛剛也做了一些說明那但是對於一些提案過程當中在立法院的討論"},{"start":384.582,"end":388.043,"text":"我們尊重委員在立法院裡面的討論畢竟還是在你們院內做必要的討論那國外的話確實在過去這幾年對於這種國家安全的法制反間諜反滲透的法制確實非常積極的賴立法我的粗淺的理解沒有記錯的話"},{"start":411.252,"end":432.529,"text":"過去這兩三年應該有美國、英國、法國、荷蘭、日本、韓國、澳洲、印度11個國家再加上歐盟都有通過相關的立法規範那主要重點都是把它著重在怎麼樣來界定間諜的行為怎麼樣來加重相關的罰則所以這已經變成是國際社會在這個部分關切的一個重點也是一個主要的立法的趨勢"},{"start":433.83,"end":459.275,"text":"所以說對我來講我認為像這樣的法案其實是為了讓國家更好而且我也希望立法委員是可以做一個表率不要永遠就是一隻手指頭指著別人只看到那一隻手指頭我自己認為我們自己可以做到好的可以讓國家更好的國會改革應該是從我們自己改革開始而不是一打招砍向別人那麼我覺得這個根本就是華天下之大雞接下來我要請主席幫我邀請的是我們的國土辦的林主任"},{"start":463.817,"end":470.816,"text":"請林主任報告委員長"},{"start":472.024,"end":490.628,"text":"林主委有關於這個國家的這個安全的部分關鍵基礎設施您在報告也特別提到了其實媒體也是其中的一環那麼因為時間有限我就先總結的來說就是在整體來講媒體是我們非常重要的一個傳播工具那麼包括中央社包括民視甚至於聯合報都曾經遭受到強烈的攻擊不論是要駭入竊取資料"},{"start":497.389,"end":518.008,"text":"又或者是呢造成這個相關的瀏覽的數量暴增變成是癱瘓喔那麼甚至於也曾經出現過不明的新聞的標題喔那像這樣的一個所謂媒體遭受攻擊的過程當中紅色資訊戰他今天即一旦可以駭入之後他有可能是成為"},{"start":520.37,"end":537.018,"text":"發錯假訊息的一個管道那我們知道現在在台灣每一個人幾乎都是人手一級甚至於兩級甚至於呢行動裝置都非常多那麼在這個部分我們有沒有考慮到或者是協助媒體在強化他的資訊安全"},{"start":538.847,"end":554.4,"text":"是,謝謝委員那個因為在媒體也是我們部分重要的媒體設施也是我們關鍵基礎設施的一環那所以相關的這些媒體設施也都是我們資通安全管理法所規範的對象因此在相關的人員、設備、技術"},{"start":557.242,"end":583.945,"text":"集合的規定都有相關的一些規定那包含要內機也要外機外機就是由這個治安署甚至是國土辦也會會同一起去做一些了解跟協助那當然這是事前的防範那如果事中遇到了一些相關的一些應變的處置作為的時候政府也有一些相關的資源會來幫忙做一些協助例如遇到DDoS的攻擊當然我們就要幫他清洗流量做短做一些疏導"},{"start":588.248,"end":597.212,"text":"因為時間已經到了那麼有關於在協助媒體建構更安全的系統的部分如果你們有一些後續的資料是不是可以提供給我的辦公室"}]}},{"id":"151922","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151922","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bd93a8c73ec7c18641e4149ad024bf7a87f5010e630711919005dafe6a1b373055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯建銘","委員發言時間":"09:43:36 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項目一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、十、"},{"start":336.581,"end":361.209,"text":"洪孟楷的版本照理貨,洪孟楷的版本抄當年2016、1964以後,國民黨才提出的版本,他用改良師用改,然後說這個版本也是違憲。他是要版本寫從第7屆開始,各位請看看,洪孟楷的版本連抄都抄,把舊的抄,現在第幾屆?現在第11屆,因為他的版本寫從第7屆開始,"},{"start":366.004,"end":391.736,"text":"那時光要倒流是吧?這些空氣沒有當地委員全部回來是吧?那草法拿草法去...國民黨是粗糙!違憲斷正,莫此為勝!所以請今天本席要再次議。所有的版本,我們歐美社的版本也是一樣,它是改行社這樣比喻,緊戰院長任命主委,然後另外一個人是緊戰院,大概五個人,院長提名兩個,一個主委一個委員,"},{"start":393.772,"end":420.864,"text":"剩下三個副主委是立法院來任命這徹底無奉行政院的權利這徹底違憲我相信委員你老公是大法官了這樣的法案免得提而出來今天我們在這裡要談一個很清楚的事情法官商在那裡表演那一句我不懂前一陣子沒有講到核心問題這是作秀"},{"start":422.186,"end":447.51,"text":"我一直希望他出來打球來好好做憲政辯論、憲法辯論、版本的辯論他一直在呼喚國民黨他怎麼呼喚就要來講清楚吧你以為你要黃國昌兩個加起來天下無敵國家在你們兩個掌控中國家要肥在你們兩個惡極必反啊我要告訴你不要作惡多端啊"},{"start":452.315,"end":453.44,"text":"合共商實驗代理人吳楷部長報告。"}]}},{"id":"151921","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151921","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b80c417139146ae881853afabeb86d4497f5010e6307119192aeb4f393fa6d6c65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"09:41:02 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09:50:26","影片長度":"00:09:24","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-16"},"duration":564,"end_time":"2024-05-01T09:50:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T09:41:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":156,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（9時41分）謝謝主席，我們有請蔡局長。"],["主席：請蔡局長。"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝主席，徐委員早。"],["徐委員巧芯：局長，我想請問一下，在國安局的業務裡面要蒐集很多相關的情報，那有沒有包含我們重要的，比如說總統、副總統、總統當選人、副總統當選人，相關的情資都應該要一併掌握，並且對一些虛假的消息要進行一定程度的快速處理？"],["蔡局長明彥：對於各種錯假訊息在網路上、社群媒體的傳播，國安局確實都有在做必要的注蒐。"],["徐委員巧芯：這邊要跟您講一下，在今年1月初開始，在PTT、在Mobile01、在Dcard上面都有一篇文章，他雖然沒有指名道姓，可是他在上面虛構的很多東西都符合蕭準副總統，這個事情當時也沒有媒體做了報導，但文章貼了好幾個月，也沒有被撤銷，也沒有被相關的機關認定為假消息處理。對於國安局來說，正副元首的輿論或者過去是駐美代表等等，當時是1月，已經是準副總統了，似乎這也是國家安全的一環。我們把圖放大看之後你可以看到，比方說，「影射蕭美琴有神秘男友？美女副總統背後的男孩是誰？」然後另外一篇「美女副總統與阿美族男孩的愛情故事」，他當然用了一些影射的手法，比方說故事裡面提到兩個人，我現在講的都不是真實的，請您諒解，我只是在解釋說他是怎麼樣去描述這個過程，他就把要影射的蕭美琴準副總統說成喵HK，然後跟另外一位叫做俊彥，或者是他會稱呼他為米泱．阿道，可能是一位原住民朋友，他上面的名稱寫到文章裡面，關於所謂的喵HK等等的，當你比對蕭美琴準副總統的生平年月，是比對得起來的，所以他就很明顯的是在影射我們的蕭準副總統，這個資料很難讓人不去聯想他可能想要惡意的去操作這樣子的一個部分。另外一個男生，也就是這個男主角，民國69年在高雄出生的阿美族男孩，名字叫做俊彥，原住民的名字叫做米泱，在東華大學念書的時候，剛好認識了喵HK，當時PTT的網友就在網路搜尋，也可以查到這個人，這個人剛好就是花蓮蕭美琴之友協會的理事，這邊圈起來的理事有出現這個名字，這邊都有介紹，你看，美女副總統和阿美族男孩的愛情故事，也有所謂的大合照，我們看一下合照，這一位是我們蕭美琴準副總統，我們把大家的資料都碼掉了，後面就是被寫出來的這一位。","這個文章比較麻煩的地方在於，如果他只是寫一寫，就像小說一樣的情節，那我今天不會跟局長來討論，但重點在於，這篇文章裡面提及他們的個人背景、相識過程、同居、一起工作，而且他還寫到，這位男士見過我們的蔡總統，還跟著所謂的蕭美琴一起去美國工作。我們都不證實這個事情，因為我也沒有辦法查證，它有可能是假消息，或是認知作戰，你看我標起來的地方「見過總統」，甚至最重要的部分他寫什麼？這個男性一方面利用臺灣的稅金，幫喵HK也就是aka蕭美琴接觸在美國的軍火商、智庫和政要，成功推動了裴洛西、龐培歐來臺，一方面替蕭美琴（暗示）收錢，和美國人達成協議買萊豬、買武器，特別是幫助台積電赴美建廠，這些都給他們帶來了巨大財富、豪車別墅、香檳美酒，進入了米泱的生活。雖然這個文章也一直說是虛構故事，但是他又巨細靡遺的，甚至還提到副總統財產申報等等的事件，這個文章上面的問題，又涉及到臺美外交的問題，也涉及到了我們準副總統的相關資訊，而這個內容從今年的1月到現在沒有被處理，我昨天還去搜尋，在網路上面都還看得到，反而是有的社群帳號不見了。","蕭美琴準副總統過去是駐美大使，我不曉得國安局對於這樣子的內容是否有掌握，那要怎麼樣核實或是處理這種系統性的文章呢？尤其當權者身旁的人員，如果真的有涉及這樣子重大的爭議，難道不應該核實嗎？請問局長，對於今天我所陳述的這個部分，你們會有什麼樣的具體作為？"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員的提問，就整個網路上各種爭議訊息的散布，就像我一開始跟委員所提到的，我們都有透過相關的人員還有相關的技術來進行全面的注蒐。"],["徐委員巧芯：請問這一篇有掌握嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：有，我可以跟委員說明一下，我們從去年到現在掌握的這種爭議訊息有一百三十多萬件，國安局是一個國家情報機關，我們注蒐到這些相關的爭議訊息，我們會做初步的篩濾，但是這個爭議訊息到底是真的、是假的，我們一般會通報到權責的單位來進行必要的辨認。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個權責單位是哪裡？"],["蔡局長明彥：我舉個例子，我們在一個禮拜可能可以篩濾到有兩、三萬則的錯假訊息，我們大概會初步分析一下它真實性的狀況，然後會通報到國安會，每一個禮拜應該都有五、六千則，另外也會通報到行政院，由權責單位經過我們的通報之後，針對各種可能的錯假訊息來做進一步的判定，到底有沒有必要再做進一步的處理或回應。依委員剛剛所提到的這一則，我們有通報。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們通報之後的決定是什麼？不用處理？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們情報機關不會去涉入行政部門後續的處理狀況。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，所以你們通報之後……"],["蔡局長明彥：這是我們職責。"],["徐委員巧芯：你們通報之後，這個事情是通報到行政院的哪一個單位？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們有通報到國安會跟行政院，都有通報。"],["徐委員巧芯：行政院院本部嗎？還是行政院的轄下的哪一個單位？數位發展部嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：沒有，這個案子是通報到國安會。"],["徐委員巧芯：國安會？"],["蔡局長明彥：對。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以國安會也認為這個事情是不用處理的？"],["蔡局長明彥：有沒有處理我想由相關單位來做進一步的判定，就情報機關來講，我們是要掌握有沒有這樣的爭訊，然後做必要的通報，讓權責單位來做進一步的認定。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我仍然認為，像這樣子的訊息是需要處理、甚至下架的，因為它裡面已經暗示，影射我國準副總統的男朋友有去接觸在美國的軍火商，這對我國的聲譽，還有民眾看到了之後，會產生巨大的影響。既然你們有掌握，也通報了國安會，我實在不明白，為什麼這麼嚴重的一個訊息，在網路上面不斷的被轉傳、不斷的被看到、不斷的讓民眾接受到錯誤的訊息，甚至可能對我們的蕭美琴準副總統產生了錯誤的想法，這個對我們的國家也是一點好處都沒有。所以我最後想要請問局長，當我今天把這樣子的訊息提出來之後，你們會不會再度通報，或者是說建議國安會必須針對這樣子的文章再進行一次處置呢？"],["蔡局長明彥：我們謝謝委員的提醒，我們也會依照國安局的權責，再來做相關的一個通報跟確認，謝謝委員關切。"],["徐委員巧芯：如果有下架的話，請再通知我，好嗎？"],["蔡局長明彥：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請林楚茵委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-16","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","林楚茵","沈伯洋","王定宇","陳冠廷","洪申翰","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","黃仁","邱志偉","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，\n以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.7565937500000001,"end":5.076593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.539718750000002,"end":13.075343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.51409375,"end":40.969718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.524093750000002,"end":30.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.34096875,"end":49.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.947218750000005,"end":151.61909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.92284375,"end":229.10909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":229.58159375000002,"end":255.04596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.55221875,"end":313.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.17596875000004,"end":377.87909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.14909375,"end":392.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.54784375,"end":393.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.47159375,"end":413.46846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":412.74284375,"end":414.44721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.56534375,"end":442.07159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.37534375,"end":445.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.58159375,"end":450.15471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":449.17596875000004,"end":456.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45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PAO CANADA"}]}},{"id":"151920","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151920","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b9dc7e38256bd52cc1e4149ad024bf7a87f5010e6307119192b651861cc72ae2f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈發惠","委員發言時間":"09:35:59 - 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一) 委員傅崐萁等33 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案、\n( 二) 委員傅崐萁等41 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、( 三) 委員洪孟楷等25 人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草\n案」案、 ( 四 ) 委員翁曉玲等 18 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案。"},{"start":137.549,"end":162.717,"text":"這個我是不太清楚因為我從我原本想說啊來就就法論法來討論但是我看到今天早上氣氛我就不太清楚究竟我們這些提案委員或是國民黨團是對主委你個人有意見對人有意見還是對現在的NCC委員會有意見或者是對制度有意見聽起來大家都在罵你一個人"},{"start":164.909,"end":189.042,"text":"但是結果他們採取的手段是修法應該都有了我判斷應該是都有了所以我個人認為我們要釐清你個人你如果是針對人有意見那個沒有問題我們立法我們立法院有這個同意權這些同意權行使的時候這對人的意見我們都可以都可以表達這個這個就是目前的制度啊如果是對制度有意見那我們現在就來看我們的制度啊"},{"start":191.998,"end":214.046,"text":"主委我們現在現行的國家通訊委員會組織法是在什麼時候通過的?我們是在2006年成立的,是2006年當時有修了好幾次嘛,那時候還有四限嘛,現在現行的現行的有修到100最新的一次修正是在111年8月8號"},{"start":218.696,"end":219.016,"text":"一﹗一﹗一﹗年"},{"start":247.286,"end":269.947,"text":"這個2012年才實施的那個時候2012年那時候的多數黨是誰那時候的總統是誰那是國民黨的馬英九總統那時候立法院的多數黨是誰應該是國民黨所以這個法其實今天大家在罵罵罵罵罵的這個法是國民黨定的不是民黨定的當時就是國民黨定的法"},{"start":271.73,"end":299.586,"text":"這個立法有立法的嚴格我們今天來討論而且我今天看這個我們等一下因為我們不能夠質詢提案人不然我們副總召個人也提了兩個案子我是在搞不太清楚到底副總召到底是主張主張什麼在短短一個月內提兩個案不同的案子不同的制度所以搞不太清楚說到底國民黨的主張到底是什麼但是我們這個立法嚴格裡面我們這個國家通訊委員會組織法"},{"start":301.454,"end":329.711,"text":"事實上我們在一、欸這個兩期一過九十二年九十二年的時候我們有我們將這個國家通訊傳播基本法通過啦齁九十三年的時候我們欸九十四年一月二十一院會決議啦齁那我們就就就這個二零零五年三月我們這個版本最後在強制表國民黨強制表那個表決那時候國民黨多數啦齁強制表決的結果"},{"start":331.041,"end":340.732,"text":"最后由行政院提示線,那時候說要按照政黨比例,就是說這個不是院長提名而是政黨比例、政黨提名。"},{"start":342.386,"end":369.467,"text":"立法院立法院提名政黨提名結果最後釋制613號做什麼樣的解釋重點後來那個政黨比例這部分在613號裡面來講還被宣告違憲宣告違憲他就直接的理由就是基於行政一體憲法53條憲法53條就是就是行政權行政院是國家最高行政機關那基於行政一體他說權力分立這個有這個"},{"start":373.069,"end":394.659,"text":"人事的決定並不是說不能立法院不是不能限制但是限制有一定的界限你不能取而代之你不能說結果行政院不能任命權行政院的任命權你說立法院我來取而代之或者是政黨來取而代之我想這個這個後來就是因為這個事件我們才再修法修正現在這樣的制度對不對是的"},{"start":395.973,"end":418.065,"text":"所以我想等一下會進入大體討論會進入逐條討論我們現在這個我看到這幾個法案這幾個法案不只是這個已經不只是回到釋憲之前的狀態它是比釋憲之前更加的侵犯行政權更加的逾越了大法官所設下的那個"},{"start":419.266,"end":441.689,"text":"立法權的限制．等下我們在主條跟大體討論的時候希望說我們能夠好好的來溝通那主委我也希望說等下在答詢詢答的過程中你能夠心平氣和啦因為這個還是要對立法院有一定的尊重對立法委員要有一定尊重你還是要心平氣和啦不要人家他們的目的就是激怒你嘛讓你在這邊在這邊侮辱你激怒你你不要自己丟起來這樣不好啦"}]}},{"id":"151919","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151919","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b79a0a17d5b868db21853afabeb86d4497f5010e630711919b61b70df70fb98815ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"09:30:51 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redundancy，要短時間能夠有替代方案，比方我們NCC跟OneWeb簽的約是我們境內有700個點，境外16個點，這700個點用微波再跟local的地方通聯，end user大家可以用，可是我們要瞭解NCC跟英國公司所簽條約的但書，有沒有在戰時不可抗力因素它的服務範疇受到影響，這個我們希望能夠掌握，而不是NCC說簽了約，這個分給你國軍、分給你政府、分給你多少單位，所有國際合約的但書，也就是正常履約的督導執行沒有問題，但是它一定有受不可抗因素的條件，這個希望貴單位能夠掌握，是不是請主任做一點上述的回應？"],["林主任傑：謝謝陳委員的指教，陳委員真的對於我們相關的韌性防護非常的瞭解，就整個共同圖像的部分，我們也非常認同委員剛剛所提的，我們就以通訊韌性為例，目前我們的作法也是由海、陸、空這三個共同圖像來組合而成。","海的部分，剛剛有提到海纜，海纜除了現行的海纜之外，我們當然還會有持續的一些相關措施來進行強化；在陸上的部分，相關的民營通訊業者如何在災難的時候基地臺互用或者是緊急救援、資訊頻寬的分配，都有相關的規定；在空的部分，也有相關的低軌衛星、中軌衛星或是相關國內自行的衛星計畫等等。我們會依照委員剛剛的建議，把這樣的作法在相關的不同領域、涉及這種網路型的領域，我們做更進一步的要求及整合，以上，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員永康：謝謝，我們也希望所謂的關鍵基礎設施（CI）下的redundancy並不是只double配置，甚至要多層，也有替代方案，我們希望大家下來以後共同努力，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員。","接下來請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":50,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-16","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","徐巧芯","林楚茵","沈伯洋","王定宇","陳冠廷","洪申翰","王鴻薇","洪孟楷","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","楊瓊瓔","林憶君","黃仁","邱志偉","羅智強"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133601","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133601_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請國家安全局局長蔡明彥、行政院國土安全辦公室報告「如何強化國家關鍵基礎設施之韌性，\n以因應國安新型態風險威脅」，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1133601_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":3.6590937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.1822187500000005,"end":5.498468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.324718750000002,"end":10.544093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.915343750000002,"end":16.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.395343750000002,"end":20.550968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.02346875,"end":23.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.95971875,"end":29.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.06846875,"end":33.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.40971875,"end":37.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.74659375,"end":41.64471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.79659375,"end":46.74096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.517218750000005,"end":53.28846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.49096875,"end":56.815343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.08534375,"end":59.24534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.86534375,"end":61.30409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.73409375000001,"end":64.20659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.59471875,"end":69.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.97784375,"end":70.51784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.17596875000001,"end":73.40346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.23034375,"end":75.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.54659375,"end":78.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.09034375,"end":83.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.11909375,"end":94.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.29471875,"end":97.99034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.37846875000001,"end":106.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.68096875,"end":111.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.81096875,"end":112.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.65034375,"end":114.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.71346875,"end":117.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.71721875,"end":118.07159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.30784375,"end":122.83034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.91034375000001,"end":124.70346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.78784375000001,"end":126.47534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.54284375,"end":130.10346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.53784375,"end":138.49034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.26659375,"end":141.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.96659375000002,"end":144.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.36284375,"end":147.60284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.22284375,"end":150.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.89346875,"end":153.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.91409375,"end":156.32721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.05284375000002,"end":162.68909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.38096875000002,"end":166.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.24534375000002,"end":176.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":176.74596875,"end":184.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":184.74471875,"end":194.98784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.23659375000003,"end":209.09534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.46659375000002,"end":214.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.68096875,"end":218.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.89971875,"end":227.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.86034375000003,"end":229.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.17221875,"end":240.98909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.19159375,"end":252.71721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.05034375000002,"end":269.44034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.94659375000003,"end":295.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.40659375,"end":296.91284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.77346875,"end":302.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":302.565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redundancy那要短時間能夠有替代方案比方講我們跟這個NCC跟OneWeb簽的約是說我們境內有700個點境外16個點這700個點再用微波再跟local的地方大家end user可以用"},{"start":483.379,"end":501.976,"text":"可是我們要了解NCC簽約跟英國公司簽約條約的段數有沒有在暫時不可抗力因素它的服務範疇受到影響這個我們希望能夠掌握而不是NCC說我簽了約這個分給你國軍分給你政府分給你多少單位"},{"start":502.637,"end":504.559,"text":"陳委員真的對於我們相關的韌性的防護非常的了解"},{"start":523.434,"end":551.536,"text":"那就整個的共同圖像的部分我們也非常認同委員剛剛所提的那我們就以通訊韌性為例目前我們的做法也是由海、陸、空這三個的共同圖像來組合而成那海的部分剛剛有提到在海嵐海嵐除了現行的海嵐之外我們當然還會有持續的一些相關的措施來進行強化那在陸上的部分有相關的民營的通訊業者如何在災難的時候"},{"start":552.637,"end":552.697,"text":"以上,謝謝委員"},{"start":577.811,"end":589.947,"text":"謝謝,我們也希望在這個就所謂的CI關鍵基礎下,它的redundancy並不是只double配置,甚至要多層,然後也有替代方案,那個我們希望大家下來後共同努力,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"151918","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151918","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b239fad61ef4797421e4149ad024bf7a87f5010e6307119194d9f4a3faaf30f325ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"09:22:38 - 09:35:56","影片長度":"00:13:18","會議時間":"2024-05-01T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：併案審查\n（一）委員傅崐萁等33人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員傅崐萁等41人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員洪孟楷等25人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條及第十條條文修正草案」案。\n（四）委員翁曉玲等18人擬具「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-01","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[36,23],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1"},"duration":798,"end_time":"2024-05-01T09:35:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-01T09:22:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":88,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（9時23分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請主委。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員早。"],["黃委員國昌：主委早。本院交通委員會成立鏡電視弊案調閱小組，NCC回復拒絕提供資料……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們沒有拒絕。"],["黃委員國昌：請問是誰給你的指示？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有，我們沒有拒絕，我們的公文只是寫請釐清那個重要議案是什麼，以便提供。"],["黃委員國昌：好，這個公文這樣回復是誰給你的指示？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這我自己決定的。"],["黃委員國昌：你自己決定的？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：NCC是你自己可以決定的嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這是行政事項……"],["黃委員國昌：看一下你今天的書面報告第2頁：「本會採多數決決議政務」，這件事情是你陳耀祥一個人可以決定的嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：提供這些相關資料是屬於行政庶務的部分，所以我們在做各行政處分當然……"],["黃委員國昌：你直接把整個NCC拉起來跟立法院對幹……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有啊……"],["黃委員國昌：結果竟然是你個人的決定！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這我們內部委員有溝通過。"],["黃委員國昌：我再問一次，NCC是合議制，還是首長制？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是合議制，合議制也有行政……"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼你一個人可以決定？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：合議制也有行政庶務啊！"],["黃委員國昌：這個是行政庶務嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這本來就行政庶務啊！"],["黃委員國昌：這個叫行政庶務？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：提供資料怎麼不是行政庶務？"],["黃委員國昌：你拿整個NCC跟立法院對幹，這個叫行政庶務喔！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個資料我們讓委員通過啊！"],["黃委員國昌：今天讓大家看到……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：看到什麼！"],["黃委員國昌：我們NCC哪來的合議制啊！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：本來就合議制嘛。"],["黃委員國昌：根本就是首長制！"],["謝委員龍介：你什麼態度啊！"],["黃委員國昌：第二個……第二個……"],["羅委員智強：滾出去啦！"],["主席：大家安靜，安靜下來，安靜！我跟你們講，大家冷靜下來，好不好？我剛剛已經特別說了，麻煩尊重一下主席……"],["謝委員龍介：委員問你你也不可以這樣！"],["主席：麻煩尊重一下主席。"],["林委員國成：你不要以為他媽的就是你最大，我告訴你！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我沒有說我最大，委員。"],["主席：好、好、好，我們先停下來。"],["林委員國成：合議制就合議制！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們本來就合議制啊，我也回答我們是合議制啊。"],["主席：請大家冷靜下來，不管如何，請大家發言的時候不可以按麥克風來干擾正在發言的人。"],["莊委員瑞雄：大家在吵架耶。"],["主席：沒有，我已經出來制止了。對，我知道……"],["莊委員瑞雄：好啦，好啦，兩個人問就好。"],["主席：莊瑞雄委員，你那個麥克風要關掉，你麥克風要關掉。"],["莊委員瑞雄：我會按下去不是要干擾，我按下去代表我要負責。"],["主席：不用，我跟你說，今天我們大家講好，議事要順利進行……我跟你講，我客氣不代表我好欺負，大家好好講話啦！好不好？我們大家好好講話。"],["柯委員建銘：制止一下，好不好？"],["主席：我知道，我現在就在制止。麻煩，第一個，我剛剛講了，請大家不要在有人發言的時候按麥克風干擾，這是第一個。第二個，今天如果有任何人有太過於激動的動作，我一定會出來制止，不管今天是誰。","我跟各位報告，因為今天所有媒體都在場，我們不可能去偏袒任何一方，該制止我就制止，我們今天就這樣做。"],["莊委員瑞雄：好，這樣就好，繼續就好了。"],["主席：沒問題。"],["黃委員國昌：主席……"],["莊委員瑞雄：我就很愛看這個，他們在大小聲多有趣……"],["主席：莊瑞雄委員，因為你剛剛麥克風有開著，我說不行……"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我問一下，現在是莊委員要問問題，還是我可以問問題？"],["主席：現在是黃委員詢答的時間，所以我剛剛請莊委員麥克風要關掉。"],["莊委員瑞雄：黃國昌委員在講話，我沒有干擾啊！是大小聲的時候，我要跟你講啦。"],["主席：謝謝，這樣我知道了，謝謝莊委員，接下來就會議繼續進行。"],["黃委員國昌：不好意思，在繼續開始以前，我想請教一下主席，請備詢的官員在我問問題的時候等我把話講完。我沒有請你回答以前，請你不要任意插嘴……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好。"],["黃委員國昌：這個基本的秩序可以守住嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我請教一個問題，請教主席……"],["主席：你問我可以，請不要反質詢黃委員。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：沒有。職權行使法裡面所謂即問即答，是要詢問的委員來決定，還是主席來決定，還是我們要看情況來回應問題？"],["主席：我在這邊直接說明，因為今天詢答的人是發問的委員……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我要回答的話……"],["主席：麻煩在發問委員問完問題之後，再由官員來回答，一問一答，這樣比較好，不然會一團亂，到時候都不知道誰在講什麼，對任何人都一樣，好不好？謝謝，謝謝主委。"],["黃委員國昌：主席，這樣規則清楚了嘛？"],["主席：我已經講得很清楚了。"],["黃委員國昌：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來我們就按照這樣處理。"],["黃委員國昌：謝謝主席。請教一下主委，你今天到司法跟交通聯席委員會以前，你先去了什麼地方？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：先去什麼地方？我去立法院的民進黨黨團。"],["黃委員國昌：你去民進黨立法院黨團啊？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是啊。"],["黃委員國昌：你是民進黨的NCC主委，還是國家的NCC主委啊……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：民進黨基本上在行政權是執政黨。"],["黃委員國昌：今天受到本院司法及法制、交通委員會聯席請你來備詢，處理有關於NCC組織法之前，你還先跑去民進黨黨團，怎麼樣？聽命令嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：溝通法案嗎？溝通法案。"],["黃委員國昌：這個是所謂的NCC主委超越職權嗎？全國人民心裡都有一把尺，我現在跟你進入實質的問題。現在NCC主委被提名人翁柏宗、也是你們副主委，之前在捲入鏡電視弊案的時候他發了一個聲明，那個聲明我看不懂，他說有傳聞提到他本人的部分，「來文部分附件之形式真正性尚待審酌，如果連形式真正性都無法確定，就沒有具體事證」。","翁柏宗在講的形式真正性是什麼啊？我們來看一下，2021年5月19日鏡電視大股東裴偉傳訊息提到「我們和翁副主委溝通過了」；2021年8月4日裴偉再傳訊息提到「翁副主委提醒我們片子流出去了」，這個簡訊的形式真正性，請問NCC確認了沒有？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這不是我們能確認……"],["黃委員國昌：我講的是形式真正性喔！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是我們能確認的問題，我想委員……"],["黃委員國昌：不是你們可以確認的問題。好，我再問一個更具體一點……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我想這個問題可以請委員詢問翁副主委，因為他被提名，審查案的時候可以問。"],["黃委員國昌：對不起，我再詢問得更具體一點。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：是。"],["黃委員國昌：陳建平當初到NCC接受訪談的時候，有沒有證實這些簡訊都是真的？有，還是沒有？請回答！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：陳建平沒有……"],["黃委員國昌：陳建平去NCC接受詢問的時候，有沒有確認裴偉傳給陳建平的這些簡訊都是真的？有，還是沒有？請回答！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這我並不瞭解。"],["黃委員國昌：你並不瞭解？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對，這個部分……"],["黃委員國昌：你作為NCC的主委，什麼事情都不瞭解啊！來這邊備詢的時候……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：委員，這個是個人、私人通訊的問題。"],["黃委員國昌：主席，剛剛建立了規則，我們的NCC主委恐怕是沒有要遵守喔！"],["主席：主委，麻煩一下。"],["黃委員國昌：時間請暫停！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：不是，他問我，我當然回答。"],["黃委員國昌：時間請暫停！"],["主席：時間先暫停。我再重申一次，麻煩一下，官員能夠在委員詢問完畢之後再回答。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：跟主席報告一下，因為我不曉得委員問我，一下子又自己講，到底是我已經回答……"],["主席：沒關係，這個有誤解，沒關係，我們等一下繼續，大家就稍微注意一下。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝。"],["主席：不管哪一個委員詢問的時候，就麻煩一下。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：你作為NCC主委，這本來就是在鏡電視的行政調查當中要調查的事情，你既然說不知道，我今天問你最關鍵的問題，陳建平去NCC接受詢問的時候，有沒有親自證實這些簡訊的形式真正性？因為翁柏宗他否認的是什麼？否認的是連形式真正性都沒有確認，可以這樣說謊喔？可以這樣說謊喔？我現在請教你的是，形式真正性這件事情，陳建平到NCC接受詢問的時候，有沒有證實這些簡訊都是真的？有還是沒有？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我不曉得陳建平到我們那邊去有接受這個問題嗎？因為陳建平當時來講，是由我們……"],["黃委員國昌：有還是沒有？請回答。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：好像沒有，我沒有看到這個資料。"],["黃委員國昌：好，你說沒有嘛！好，你說沒有，會議紀錄記好了啦，所有的事情我全部都查證過了，我今天負責任的在國會殿堂跟大家報告，這些簡訊全部都是真的，我為什麼敢說這些簡訊全部都是真的？因為我去找過陳建平，我請他把手機拿給我看，從他手機裡面就是裴偉的這些簡訊，形式真正性、形式真正性！他告訴我，NCC約詢的時候，他全部都說了，我們現在為什麼大家對這件事情這麼憤怒，裴偉直接大喇喇的跟所有的股東講，這張執照要拿到，是蔡英文的旨意啊，結果呢？NCC在面對這些行政調查的時候，能拖就拖、能混就混。","繼續問，目前針對NCC內神通外鬼，提供了很多資料了嘛！包括NCC內部人員洩漏資訊給裴偉，包括有人跟NCC檢舉，結果鏡新聞的副總陳素秋她發言說什麼？她發言說檢舉人，NCC有告訴我是一個自然人啦，地址在內湖，陳素秋怎麼會知道這件事？主委，請回答。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我不曉得你這個資料是從哪裡來，我無從確認起。"],["黃委員國昌：這個資料在上一屆國會的時候，所有的錄音檔陳椒華委員全部都放過了，今天繼續在混，告訴全國人民，我們NCC早就做好了盡職的調查，胡扯！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：陳椒華並沒有提出這個問題……"],["黃委員國昌：這就是為什麼民進黨政府不願意過吹哨者保護法，吹哨者去NCC檢舉資料，結果在鏡電視內部會議當中，新聞副總陳素秋大喇喇的講「NCC告訴我，檢舉人是一個自然人啦，地址在內湖」，然後裴偉傳訊給陳泰銘的內容也是講「NCC內部告訴我」，你們這些洩密，NCC都沒有查嗎？都沒有查嗎？這樣的NCC敢說是獨立機關嗎？有沒有查？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這我們都查過啦。"],["黃委員國昌：然後呢？"],["主席：黃委員可能要注意一下時間。"],["黃委員國昌：結論是什麼？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：基本上來講的話，這有沒有洩密……"],["黃委員國昌：你查過了，結論是什麼？請說明。"],["陳主任委員耀祥：這個部分來講，關於相關洩密的案子，本來就是檢調機關在處理當中，所以這個資料我並沒有看過。"],["黃委員國昌：內部啊！不好意思，主席，我只講最後一句話，今天NCC主委在備詢臺上面，這種能拖就拖、能混就混的行徑，大家都看在眼裡，為什麼全國人民對NCC的公正性沒有信任感？就是因為有你這種主委，有你這種調查品質……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我覺得這是莫須有、這是人身攻擊啦，我們在行政院，本來就是政風檢調單位在查，沒有這個什麼莫須有的問題吧！"],["黃委員國昌：你們政風室，這不是你們政風室的權責嗎？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：對啊，有交給政風室處理啊！"],["黃委員國昌：你還敢在那邊鬼扯，對啊，是你們政風室的權責，所以我問你處理了什麼嘛！"],["陳主任委員耀祥：政風是第三方機關，不是我們……"],["黃委員國昌：處理了什麼嘛？所以我就問你處理了什麼嘛？"],["陳主任委員耀祥：有調查報告，而且我們把這個都移送給檢調單位去處理了。"],["黃委員國昌：你們行政機關內部有行政機關應該要踐行的行政調查，人家到你們那邊去約詢的時候，全部都跟你們講了，全部都裝不知道。"],["主席：注意一下時間。"],["黃委員國昌：約詢的紀錄敢不敢交到司法？敢不敢交到交通委員會？敢不敢調到調閱小組來？為了就是要究明你們這一種包庇的行徑，所以才要成立調閱小組，什麼東西都不給……"],["陳主任委員耀祥：我們調查資料都是由政風依照行政程序處理了……"],["主席：黃委員，時間到了，謝謝黃委員。","下一位我們請沈發惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":130,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-36,23-1","speakers":["吳宗憲","洪孟楷","翁曉玲","傅崐萁","黃國昌","謝龍介","羅智強","林國成","莊瑞雄","柯建銘","沈發惠","陳俊宇","鍾佳濱","林思銘","吳思瑤","黃健豪","李昆澤","何欣純","楊瓊瓔","蔡其昌","游顥","許智傑","陳素月","徐富癸","魯明哲","邱若華","廖先翔","林沛祥","陳雪生"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-01"],"gazette_id":"1133701","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133701_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"併案審查( 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前你先去了什麼地方"},{"start":333.322,"end":340.724,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會第12屆第13屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第20屆第21屆第21屆第22屆第21屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22"},{"start":361.849,"end":364.31,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":384.662,"end":405.275,"text":"有傳聞提到他本人來文部分附件的形式真正性上代審酌。如果連形式真正性都無法確定就沒有具體事證。」翁柏宗在講的形式真正性是什麼啊?來我們來看一下2021年5月19號競電視大股東培偉傳訊息我們和翁副主委溝通過了"},{"start":413.475,"end":431.205,"text":"2021年8月4號裴偉再傳訊翁副主委提醒我們騙子流出去了這個簡訊的形式真正性請問NCC確認了沒有?我講的是形式真正性喔不是我們確認的問題不是你們可以確認的問題我想這個問題可以請委員詢問翁副主委對不起我再詢問的更具體一點這個"},{"start":440.428,"end":462.722,"text":"陳建平當初到NCC去接受訪談的時候有沒有證實這些簡訊都是真的?有還是沒有?請回答陳建平去NCC接受詢問的時候有沒有確認陪委傳給陳建平的這些簡訊都是真的?有還是沒有?請回答"},{"start":463.582,"end":480.188,"text":"這我並不了解你並不了解你作為NCC的主委啊什麼事情都不了解啊來這一天被刑的時候那個主席啊剛剛建立的規則我們的NCC主委恐怕是沒有要遵守主委麻煩一下時間請暫停時間暫停那我再重申一次麻煩一下就官員能夠在那個委員他詢問完畢之後再回答"},{"start":488.251,"end":490.092,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":502.162,"end":526.102,"text":"你作為NCC的主委這本來就是在禁電視的行政調查當中要調查的事情你既然說不知道我今天問你最關鍵的問題陳建平去NCC接受詢問的時候有沒有親自證實這些簡訊的形式真正性因為翁博宗他否認的是什麼否認的是欸連形式真正性都沒有確認可以這樣說謊喔"},{"start":527.623,"end":532.786,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案 案件,並且擬具"},{"start":551.195,"end":574.289,"text":"有還是沒有請回答好你說沒有嘛好你說沒有來會議記錄記好了啦所有的事情我全部都查證過了我今天負責任的在國會殿堂跟大家報告這些簡訊全部都是真的我為什麼敢說這些簡訊全部都是真的因為我去找過陳建平我請他把手機拿給我看"},{"start":575.593,"end":601.918,"text":"從他手機裡面就是培韋的這些簡訊行事真正性、行事真正性他告訴我NCC約詢的時候他全部都說了我們現在為什麼大家對這件事情這麼憤怒培韋直接大剌剌的跟所有的股東講這張執照要拿到啊是蔡英文的旨意啊"},{"start":604.248,"end":629.743,"text":"結果呢NCC在面對這些行政調查的時候能拖就拖能混就混來繼續問目前針對NCC內神通外鬼提供了很多資料了嘛包括NCC內部人員洩漏資訊給陪委包括有人跟NCC檢舉結果進新聞的副總陳素秋他發言說什麼啊"},{"start":630.663,"end":635.504,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":649.909,"end":669.77,"text":"這個資料在上一屆國會的時候所有的錄音黨陳江華委員全部都放過了今天繼續再混告訴全國人民我們NCC早就做好了禁止的調查胡扯這是為什麼民進黨政府為什麼不願意郭吹哨者保護法"},{"start":670.549,"end":691.199,"text":"吹哨者去NCC檢舉資料,結果在進電視內部會議當中新聞副總陳素秋大剌剌地講:「NCC告訴我檢舉人是一個自然人啦,地址在內湖啊,然後呢培委傳訊給陳泰明的內容也是講啦,NCC內部告訴我啊,你們這些泄密NCC都沒有查嗎?」"},{"start":696.834,"end":704.119,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院"},{"start":719.828,"end":747.867,"text":"內部啊我最不好意思主席我只講最後一句話吼今天NCC主委在備詢台上面這種能拖就拖能混就混的行徑大家都看在眼裡為什麼全國人民對NCC的公正性沒有信任感就是因為有你這種主委有你們這種調查品質我們在行政院本來在政風是檢調然後再查沒有什麼這個莫須有的問題吧"},{"start":749.212,"end":751.215,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制、交通委員會組織法第四條條文修正草案案案"},{"start":766.429,"end":791.393,"text":"行政機關內部有行政機關應該要進行的行政調查人家到你們那邊去約尋的時候全部都跟你們講了全部都裝不知道約尋的紀錄敢不敢交到司法敢不敢交到交通委員會敢不敢調到調閱小組來為了就是要救民你們這種包庇的情境所以才成立調閱小組什麼東西都不給黃委員時間到了"},{"start":796.769,"end":796.992,"text":"法定人數不足"}]}},{"id":"151917","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151917","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466bc8fa74738a9a4d4c1853afabeb86d4497f5010e6307119190303f983ebd4ce0e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:20:54 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有請國土辦林主任請國土辦林主任主任 不管是說我們國安局的報告或是我們國土辦的報告裏面都有特別提到就是說像國際戰事、恐怖活動其實攻擊關鍵基礎建設就可以達到這個政策、這個民心影響到這個社會的安定"},{"start":29.012,"end":48.64,"text":"當然我們還有看到就是我們國安局這邊還有提到說那也有人員的潛伏那理應外合呢去起這個設施機敏的這個資訊或是刺激破壞設施的這個運作等等那台灣對於這個這些我想我們都已經有一些"},{"start":50.657,"end":52.799,"text":"我會特別提到這個核電廠在2022年烏俄戰爭發生的時候其實俄羅斯那時佔領了這個車諾比這個核電廠"},{"start":80.598,"end":80.638,"text":"羅美玲議員"},{"start":96.667,"end":96.727,"text":"林主任"},{"start":127.355,"end":147.269,"text":"謝謝委員的提醒那這個當然這個能源的設施是關鍵基礎設施的一環那核能更是其中的一部分所以相關的這個電廠的一些防護我們都有一些相關的一些防護計畫從它的脆弱點到它的整個生命週期從它的"},{"start":148.089,"end":148.85,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":173.564,"end":181.432,"text":"對,因為我們今天的題目有提到說國安新型態的風險威脅我想這個核廢料我想應該也是屬於這個國安新型態的風險威脅之一因為我們有看到俄烏戰爭所發生車諾比事件這個有些核廢料被竊取的這個事情那它衍生的可能就是還是國安的這個問題"},{"start":197.869,"end":213.745,"text":"巴西的Goyania事故已經到今年9月要發生已經是有37週年了所以這一連串的事件讓我們很擔心就是說因為台灣有核電廠可能衍生的不單單只有放射性的問題可能衍生的是未來跟戰爭"},{"start":215.327,"end":215.367,"text":"羅美玲議員"},{"start":231.51,"end":233.771,"text":"臺灣的核廢料到目前為止它的這個處理的方式還是一再的這個卡關我們可以看到說合一合二的這個乾淨計劃那什麼時候呢能夠啟用那還是一個未知數像我們核廢料其實處理的問題到目前還是未解雖然我們覺得說那未來如果發生"},{"start":253.16,"end":253.18,"text":"吳俄戰爭"},{"start":268.647,"end":273.169,"text":"蔡明彥、行政院國土安全局局長蔡明彬、行政院國土安全局局長蔡明彬、行政院國土安全局局長蔡明彬、行政院國土安全局局長蔡明彬、行政院國土安全局局長"},{"start":297.78,"end":298.2,"text":"謝謝主席委員長"},{"start":326.397,"end":326.577,"text":"蔡英文議員"},{"start":350.293,"end":350.993,"text":"國安局長蔡明彥"},{"start":377.687,"end":399.671,"text":"主要的這個工作我想請教就是說未來未來如果說有類似這種狀況的話我們國安局要如何加強跟完善我們正副總統的這個違安的這個工作尤其很多國家我們並沒有執法權像這種騷擾事件或公職事件如果發生的話我們要如何加強保護我們元首的這個違安的這個工作"},{"start":400.011,"end":422.329,"text":"好,謝謝委員那就我們的元首或是我們的安危對象在出訪期間那相關的維安工作是國安局主要的責任所以一般在行程規劃的過程當中我們大概就會派出我們的前置人員來瞭解可能維安對象到國外訪問的定點有哪些做必要的先刊那也會在先刊之後做好完備的安危的整備計畫那再來"},{"start":425.211,"end":441.142,"text":"提供相關的一個人力的配置來確保這一次的出訪行程可以萬全那另外在過程當中我們也都跟當地的警察部門跟安全部門保持非常密切的聯繫在現場的相關的交通的動線以及不同場地的一個維安部署"},{"start":441.502,"end":443.703,"text":"至於委員剛剛所提到的蕭女士在歐洲訪問期間的狀況簡單跟委員說明一下當時的狀況並沒有造成車隊的一個騷擾"},{"start":467.299,"end":488.99,"text":"主要是有所謂的不明的車輛在從機場移動到飯店的過程當中他有想要尾隨車隊可是當他開始要尾隨車隊的話就已經被我們的維安人員跟當地的警力給發現了第一時間就把他排除掉了所以並沒有造成任何的金字老現象那這也反映到我們安危計畫相關的整備還算相關的完備"},{"start":492.593,"end":516.728,"text":"蔡英文總統出訪有幫到過境美國的時候那中國那時候發動的是他們所謂的中國僑民那之後我們有看到一些報導就是說他們所謂的中國僑民其實還是參雜了很多海外警察站的一些成員在裡面那這些海外警察站其實很多都是中國前軍人或情報人員所組成那像這個情資我們有沒有有所掌握"},{"start":517.188,"end":518.489,"text":"他們似乎不是單純的僑名"},{"start":542.124,"end":566.156,"text":"對,我們跟當地的警方也都還有調查單位也都掌握相關的資訊這也是為什麼我們在可能我們的維安對象到達現場之前當地的大概的情資狀況都能夠掌握得相當不錯的主要原因因為赴外訪問最重要的就是跟國際合作友方的相關對口部門建立起互信拿來加強合作,應足各種可能的狀況這確實是外訪期間最重要的工作"},{"start":566.596,"end":566.816,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"151916","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151916","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b029a95cbf3233b261e4149ad024bf7a87f5010e63071191987e74d03d353af155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"09:12:18 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案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會"}]}},{"id":"151915","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151915","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b9a8bff83a0db0d4f1e4149ad024bf7a87f5010e630711919f8442d53e673a3d85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"翁曉玲","委員發言時間":"09:08:37 - 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案。"},{"start":78.14,"end":82.763,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案案案案案案案案案案案案案案"},{"start":108.353,"end":123.262,"text":"傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案,在其他民主國家不管是美國、韓國、德國、法國他們的通訊傳播監理機構基本上就是由議會來提名、任命。"},{"start":124.733,"end":141.916,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案。 bicynna我認為這個是一個比較好的一個方法可以引進多元的民主力量在獨立機關裡面更能夠維持這個獨立機關的這樣的一個不受外在政治力影響的這樣的一個情形而"},{"start":155.34,"end":174.061,"text":"除此之外在本席所提出來的另外一個重點就是廢除交錯任期制目前NCC的委員確實是採取交錯任期制可是就現在NCC的相關的經理業務沒有那麼複雜"},{"start":175.342,"end":183.165,"text":"通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案．立法院及第十條條文修正草案．立法院及第十條條文修正草案．立法院及第十條條文修正草案．立法院及第十條條文修正草案．立法院及第十條條文修正草案．立法院及"}]}},{"id":"151914","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151914","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/75811ef35c27466b9b1af0a1dac7e4771e4149ad024bf7a87f5010e63071191953aeae6a5651927f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:04:01 - 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案件,並且擬具:「國家通訊傳播委員會組織法第四條、第八條及第十條條文修正草案案 案件,並且"},{"start":201.206,"end":222.1,"text":"本席今天身為提案人之一我提案的版本就是針對過去613號縣市解釋之後我們再做修正這與法與情與理都沒有違憲的問題更能夠來協助解決過去的分擾跟紛爭最重要的是我們也認為"},{"start":223.681,"end":235.129,"text":"如果說執政黨在立法院佔的席次之多數將弱化立法院行使人事同意權的效果已經違背了民意代表監督制衡職責避免執政黨不當影響廣電媒體的運作造成言論自由的閒置所以"},{"start":240.453,"end":264.279,"text":"我們要求在組織法第四條來進行修法我們也懇請所有的委員同仁都能夠支持本席的提案我們在今天好好的質詢並且來做主條審查我們希望大家能夠取得一致的共識修正撥亂反正讓NCC這個機關才是真真正正符合當初立法時候的精神以上謝謝"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}