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Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條條條文修正草"},{"start":1091.198,"end":1120.638,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員"},{"start":1121.218,"end":1144.351,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告"},{"start":1148.938,"end":1171.631,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員"},{"start":1175.152,"end":1194.958,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告"},{"start":1196.458,"end":1212.547,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告"},{"start":1224.304,"end":1252.951,"text":"等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案、委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案、委"},{"start":1260.14,"end":1260.6,"text":"併案審查委員"},{"start":1283.674,"end":1303.427,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告"},{"start":1313.614,"end":1324.737,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商．立法院朝野黨團協商．立法院朝野黨團協商．立法院朝野黨團協商．立法院朝野黨團協商．立法院朝野黨團協商．立法院朝野黨團協商．"},{"start":1340.222,"end":1346.728,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具"},{"start":1357.817,"end":1376.704,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告"},{"start":1378.084,"end":1395.535,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告"},{"start":1396.796,"end":1420.771,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員及委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahove等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補"},{"start":1422.672,"end":1446.574,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告"},{"start":1448.855,"end":1464.881,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告"},{"start":1467.596,"end":1483.671,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商．立法院朝野黨團協商．立法院朝野黨團協商．立法院朝野黨團協商．立法院朝野黨團協商．"},{"start":1489.896,"end":1509.769,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告"},{"start":1512.331,"end":1516.794,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商．立法院朝野黨團協商．立法院朝野黨團協商．"},{"start":1543.292,"end":1567.486,"text":"董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長、董事長、"},{"start":1574.852,"end":1592.642,"text":"董事長董事長董事長董事長"},{"start":1602.365,"end":1609.972,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案"},{"start":1620.068,"end":1645.739,"text":"董事長董事長董事長董事長董事長董事長"},{"start":1658,"end":1664.23,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告"},{"start":1665.303,"end":1689.231,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商："},{"start":1692.312,"end":1717.468,"text":"併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案�"},{"start":1742.263,"end":1743.744,"text":"董事長董事長董事長"},{"start":1759.565,"end":1766.366,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告"},{"start":1771.647,"end":1795.958,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案："},{"start":1801.22,"end":1816.914,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告"},{"start":1820.077,"end":1847.65,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告"},{"start":1854.676,"end":1856.057,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":1878.585,"end":1884.53,"text":"主席響鐘"},{"start":1892.831,"end":1901.716,"text":"我們再等一下這個因為民進黨的兩位原住民立委吳麗華跟陳雲委員好像我們請黨團通知一下好嗎謝謝"},{"start":1929.522,"end":1941.609,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告"},{"start":1943.069,"end":1945.25,"text":"併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具"},{"start":1960.751,"end":1980.723,"text":"好 謝謝主席宣告我們現在開始開會各位黨團的代表還有行政機關代表大家午安今天真的大家很辛苦從早上一直到現在那為了這個節省大家時間也不讓大家這麼累我們就趕快進入我們議程我們今天進行的黨團協商主題是內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具"},{"start":1987.327,"end":2003.326,"text":"原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案等四案及經院會進覆二讀與相關提案弊案協商之本院委員陳盈等20人擬具"},{"start":2006.289,"end":2031.462,"text":"保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案的黨團協商我們現在先介紹在場的委員我們先介紹的是國民黨團的代表盧縣一委員謝謝第二個我們介紹的是民進黨團的代表吳麗華委員我再介紹一下與會的這個機關人民會政務副主委谷仲"},{"start":2034.059,"end":2058.796,"text":"原民會經濟發展處的專門委員高文斌內政部國家公園署綜合計劃組專門委員張志安內政部國土管理署國土計劃組副組長廖文宏內政部國土管理署營建管理組科長林月標內政部國土管理署都市計劃組專員蕭怡如"},{"start":2062.806,"end":2089.466,"text":"農業部林業保育署副署長林浩珍農業部林業保育署森林產業組組長張偉英農業部林業保育署保育企劃組檢任計政黃敬彥經濟部水利署組長楊介良環境部氣候署主任秘書張文興"},{"start":2091.874,"end":2103.102,"text":"主計總署公務預算處專門委員吳明修法務部參事廖江憲我們現在是不是先請委員的代表發言如果沒有的話我們就請主管機關"},{"start":2116.81,"end":2125.078,"text":"請問在場的委員三位不用再發言了吧好謝謝好我們請主管機關園民會國共副主委說他要這個一點時間來發言"},{"start":2126.836,"end":2142.946,"text":"主席、各位委員有關原住民保留地禁伐補償條例部分條文修正草案若增訂第六條第一項第三款未來禁伐補償的金額會提到每公頃6萬元我們目前113年針對禁伐補償"},{"start":2147.548,"end":2171.105,"text":"這個工作我們目前的核定面積是有大概7.7萬公頃所以每年度的這個公務預算大概有23.2億所以如果這個條文倘若經大院三讀通過我們未來每年的所需要的編列預算大概有46.2億到時候也請委員來支持本會相關的預算以上報告"},{"start":2173.018,"end":2187.565,"text":"好非常謝謝國中副主委的說明我們當然這個條文通過了之後我們一定會支持你們的預算的好不好好這個今天這個民眾黨團尤其是蔓越真委員還有他們黨團其實呢早上也開過會了"},{"start":2189.146,"end":2189.286,"text":"主席"},{"start":2220.685,"end":2234.653,"text":"主席總署主席總署專門委員吳明修主席各位委員大家好我是主席總署的代表可否提供一點資訊給主席跟各位委員參考"},{"start":2235.575,"end":2257.905,"text":"那就是說現行的禁法補償金在立法時候其實參考農業部的照領的一個獎勵的規定也就是在照領20年的期間可以領60萬然後平均一年大概是3萬塊去訂定的那據我們的了解其實農業部目前預告出來的照領的辦法表面上看起來雖然就是說修正委6年可以領60萬"},{"start":2259.366,"end":2281.037,"text":"不過其實他們在其他相關的規定會搭配去訂定第七年到第20年大概可以再領19萬的金額也就是說一樣在照領20年的期間他共可以領79萬那平均一年大約是4萬元那所以說本案禁伐補償如果要調高到6萬元是不是有偏高那這個要請各位委員再考量一下"},{"start":2281.417,"end":2293.309,"text":"以上說明好 謝謝吳專門委員您的這個陳述我們已經在立法院在內政跟經濟聯席會的時候我們已經訂定金額了好不好謝謝您我們就不予接受好"},{"start":2294.997,"end":2321.398,"text":"好 我再先讀一下有關本日的協商會議本席具體建議因為本案在內政、經濟兩委會聯席審查的時候與會的委員對審查會通過的條文都具有高度的共識為了節省各位大家寶貴的時間並且要提升法案協商的效率如果大家對審查會通過的條文沒有什麼意見我們就直接簽協商的結論請問在場的原住民委員的代表或者是各黨團的代表有沒有異議"},{"start":2323.046,"end":2325.49,"text":"好沒有異議我們請議事人員宣讀協商結論的內容"},{"start":2329.858,"end":2353.316,"text":"立法院：立法院黨團協商結論：時間113年5月2日星期四下午33分至39分地點紅樓202會議室協商主題：本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等18人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草案："},{"start":2355.538,"end":2371.309,"text":"等16人分比擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第三條及第六條條文修正草案案。」二委員陳英等20人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案案。」寫上結論均照審查會審查結果通過"},{"start":2373.78,"end":2387.165,"text":"好 謝謝我們的宣讀結束我們現在請各位黨團的代表我們來簽協商結論好不好我就先簽我的主持人我們現在就散會 謝謝"},{"start":2393.146,"end":2409.417,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商：立法院朝野黨團協商："},{"start":2424.204,"end":2446.998,"text":"併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第五條及第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬"},{"start":2447.578,"end":2452.582,"text":"好,來,我們也給你送禮物來啦,感謝你拿衛生巾這包是衛生巾"},{"start":2481.244,"end":2482.864,"text":"我們內政委員會對這個懲罰的證據"},{"start":2507.628,"end":2532.026,"text":"立法院朝野黨團協商：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案審查委員高金素梅等19人擬具:「原住民保留地禁伐補償條例第六條條文修正草案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告併案：一、本院內政、經濟兩委員會報告"},{"start":2533.887,"end":2546.012,"text":"政本居哪裡啦不要丟掉啦好我拿到政本我再來委員我們兩個要不要講話不用講話啊不用了我們兩個進房子對對對關鍵"},{"start":2572.728,"end":2578.792,"text":"等一下啊 還在印 要拿一下這是民眾黨嗎對 我要去找民眾黨好 那拜託一下 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Kacaw等20人擬具《原住民族基本法》案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具《原住民族基本法》案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具《原住民族基本法》案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具《原住民族基本法》案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具《原住民族基本法》案。七、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人擬具《原住民族基本法》案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等20人"},{"start":389.153,"end":410.532,"text":"與一個月內辦理5場公聽會時進行條文審查。新海保署已於高雄、彰化、澎湖、花蓮及台東辦理公聽會。婉郡為求立法周延原型海洋保育署於北部地區新增一場公聽會,邀請相關部會官員、專家學者與名其原住民部落代表傾聽意見納入建言加開這公聽會,不便跟原決議委員會之立法程序人因原決議得進行逐條審查。"},{"start":411.813,"end":431.459,"text":"5月1日報告事項,央行內政部交通部大陸委員會財團法人海峽交流基金會原住民族委員會就針對陸方開放大陸觀光客來台具體回應其作為進行專題報告並被質詢。大陸委員會主任委員邱泰山交通部觀光署副署長鄒廷章報告委員蘇巧慧等21人質詢,分別由大陸委員會主任委員邱泰山及相關人員"},{"start":432.279,"end":454.19,"text":"交通部觀光署副署長周庭張記相關人員答覆說明。決定一、登記發言委員除不在場者外其餘均與發言完畢詢答結束。二、委員黃仁、徐巧、新林德夫、莊瑞雄、王弘維及羅志強等6人所提書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報。三、書面質詢及未期答覆部分請相關機關於一周內另以書面答覆並複製本會。通過臨時提案五案宣讀完畢。"},{"start":458.462,"end":458.942,"text":"四條條文修正草案案。」宣讀完畢。"},{"start":489.907,"end":512.254,"text":"本日議程所討論的事項我們合併詢答我先介紹一下現在出席的委員張宏祿委員王美惠委員蘇巧惠委員黃婕委員李博義委員伍麗華委員"},{"start":517.084,"end":541.635,"text":"黃建斌委員。現在我要介紹一下今天在場的列席官員。非常謝謝內政部的部長李文武昌親自到場。還有護政司的代理司長陳子和。因為我們今天是審原住民姓名條例,"},{"start":542.813,"end":562.155,"text":"我請一下在場的原住民的官員,原民會的官員自己介紹自己的名字,然後順便解釋一下給大家聽他的名字好不好,讓大家學習一下。我們請原民會的副主委古仲卡拉瓦恩,我們請古仲副主委來跟大家說您的名字。"},{"start":563.356,"end":581.527,"text":"二、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬"},{"start":589.5,"end":603.525,"text":"謝謝,這樣大家比較了解了,因為我們未來在審這個姓名條例之後呢,可能大家就要學習一下原住民的這個名字應該怎麼講才會比較正確。好,繼續,我們請綜合規劃處的處長,也是我們的周竹處長來。"},{"start":610.01,"end":615.1,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":620.41,"end":637.28,"text":"姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":643.872,"end":659.577,"text":"主席、各位委員、大家好。我是布農族的。我的族名叫Biong Taksvilainan。Biong是燒淨的木炭。Taksvilainan是我氏族名,是Vilainan的後代,所以Taksvilainan。"},{"start":661.097,"end":683.667,"text":"所以我們主任都不會錯誤您是哪一個家族的對吧從後面的這個姓氏就可以清楚知道您來自哪個家族請問一下我們的鄒族的處長也是這樣嗎看後面的也是現在再繼續介紹財團法人援助民族語言發展基金會的董事長阿美族的"},{"start":686.523,"end":702.746,"text":"三、審查委員Loka Takora等21人擬具、「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八"},{"start":715.114,"end":723.441,"text":"姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":737.153,"end":763.002,"text":"所以我的孩子就說什麼什麼麻藥以上OK所以未來您的孩子就是什麼什麼然後後面一定會有麻藥是的好謝謝也是我們的援運前輩加油謝謝好繼續我介紹的是文化部人文集出版室專門委員廖妮妮外交部領事事務局護照行政組組長林秀榮法務部參事廖江憲"},{"start":765.134,"end":776.624,"text":"教育部中宣教育司副司長嚴寶月。我們現在請提案的委員來說明提案要者,請美會委員來幫我帶來主席。我們請召委提案說明,謝謝。"},{"start":796.281,"end":817.615,"text":"謝謝主席也謝謝部長今天也親自出席然後剛剛也特別再請我們園民會的相關的這個代表做自己的名稱族名的介紹我想今天呢召委我提這個案子我自己感覺身為一個原住民族的立法委員我特別的有意義在這裡所以跟大家說明為什麼我會今天會提案"},{"start":818.235,"end":841.482,"text":"今天我提案的部分是因為原住民族的語言發展法從106年6月三讀通過之後第一條就開宗明義的說原住民族的語言是國家的語言因此我們的族人原本就可以使用原住民族的文字作為姓名的登記但是內政部以溝通識別困難為藉口"},{"start":843.283,"end":864.463,"text":"逐饒族人以單列原住民族的文字為自己的命名這是漠視原住民的姓名權跟人格權也漠視了原住民族語言為國家語言的事實這更凸顯了蔡政府對於原住民基本權利的無視一直到族人尋求司法途徑救濟"},{"start":865.624,"end":873.669,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":890.479,"end":916.167,"text":"用訴訟為自己來爭取權益,因此為全體原住民族的權利本席正式提案修法。明文的規範可以單列原住民族的名字作為姓名的登記,這讓我們的族人不再陷入單打獨鬥又廢日礦石的訴訟過程,同時也可以讓我們的族人找回自己的文化,"},{"start":916.727,"end":930.699,"text":"也依循自己的文化慣俗為自己為下一代來命名由我們自己來決定我們想要的樣子我請在場的委員還有機關能夠支持本席的提案謝謝我們感謝召委的提案說明謝謝我們請伍麗華提案說明"},{"start":950.335,"end":951.616,"text":"謝謝主席伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe做提案說明Saidhai就是一個百Tahovecahe就是我們的家屋名不是家族名是家屋名"},{"start":972.081,"end":983.467,"text":"在這邊做提案說明台灣原住民族從過去登記無異議的漢姓漢名就失去了我們自己的名字也失去了我們的族譜"},{"start":985.235,"end":1000.823,"text":"從元韻前輩1995年還我姓名運動開始後來成功爭取了修正姓名條例可以用中文譯音來登記傳統姓名但是仍然造成了許多不正確讀音的困擾"},{"start":1002.003,"end":1018.303,"text":"隨後在2001年、2003年通過修正,讓原住民在身份證上可以用原住民族文字來並列傳統姓名,算是立下了還我姓名運動的一個里程碑。"},{"start":1019.224,"end":1034.653,"text":"不過在2017年如剛才趙薇所說的原住民族語言發展法跟2019年公佈施行的國家語言發展法國家已經在法律上面肯認了原住民族文字為國家的語言"},{"start":1035.433,"end":1062.954,"text":"因此,我在2020年進入立法院的4年多以來,透過提案、質詢總共11次,要求必須修正姓名條例,讓原住民可以單列族名來作為身份登記,不需要受限於現行規定要以詞源、詞海、康熙等通用字典或教育部編定的國語字典中所列的文字來作為姓名登記文字。"},{"start":1063.885,"end":1081.864,"text":"很振奮在2022年的4月1日原住民身份法已經由憲法法庭判決確認違憲必須修正讓身份證上取用漢人姓氏並列傳統姓名羅馬拼音者也能夠取得原住民身份"},{"start":1082.705,"end":1084.947,"text":"四條的修正條文並新增第一條修正動議。我的修正重點摘要如下。"},{"start":1101.161,"end":1129.122,"text":"第二條修正臺灣原住民使用傳統姓名辦理戶籍登記申請規劃或護照不限於取用中文姓名使用中文文字得選擇使用原住民族文字也就是單列族名登記第一條基於姓名權的橫評考量修法前才以漢名並列傳統姓名登記的以中意並列傳統姓名登記的"},{"start":1130.043,"end":1156.044,"text":"或以漢名登記而於修法後改以單列傳統姓名登記的,均得原引本條例第9條之改名次數規定,回復傳統姓名以三次違憲。四、為體系一貫、明文規範、臺灣原住民使用中文傳統姓名或漢人姓名者得使用傳統姓名的羅馬拼音或原住民族文字並列登記,"},{"start":1156.824,"end":1172.097,"text":"也就是說漢名傳統姓名原住民族文字並列登記。那以上呢是我的提案說明,懇請各位立委以及行政機關予以支持,謝謝。好,非常謝謝提案委員,謝謝伍麗華委員。好,我們現在請劉昌部長然後呢來做報告。"},{"start":1190.752,"end":1203.807,"text":"主席、各位委員先進。跟各位委員報告,我也有阿美族的名字。所以是不是讓我也用阿美族語來跟大家介紹我的名字。我好一早就來過。"},{"start":1206.325,"end":1222.044,"text":"Kacaw的意思是英雄的意思是獵人的意思其實是在阿美族裔很普遍有的一個名字這個名字是大概十幾年前我某一年在參加母親節的活動的時候"},{"start":1224.085,"end":1246.533,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":1248.013,"end":1269.172,"text":"所以在這邊我們各位委員先進首先真的是非常感謝各位委員對本部業務的一個推動還有支持那今天我們召開審查姓名條例部分條文的修正草案總共有三案那我以下就相關的一些這個本部的意見二要做說明請各位委員參考"},{"start":1271.355,"end":1285.536,"text":"首先有關於鄭天財委員等21人及高金素梅委員等24人提案修正第一條以及第8條有關臺灣原住民修正為臺灣原住民族一節"},{"start":1287.479,"end":1305.719,"text":"為時體力一致本部競表尊重。有關於傳統姓名修正為傳統名字或姓名一節。按姓名條例第三條規定,姓名包括姓名、姓氏及名字,無姓氏者得登記名字。"},{"start":1307.205,"end":1333.2,"text":"原住民無姓氏可僅登記名字。我們是建議維持現行條文,就可以符合相關的需求。另外,有關於增訂臺灣原住民傳統姓名之文化習俗的調查確認內涵意義,認定基準等事宜,由中央原住民族主管機關定定至1節本部競表尊重。"},{"start":1334.455,"end":1360.913,"text":"二、高金素梅委員等24人鄭天財委員等21人以及伍麗華委員等16人提案修正第二條的條文徵定原住民姓名可單列原住民族文字與行政院政策決定一致本部敬表尊重"},{"start":1362.268,"end":1383.707,"text":"三、高金素梅委員等24人鄭天財委員等21人伍麗華委員等16人提案修正第4條條文明確規範傳統姓名得以援助民族文字並列登記者僅限於中英文之傳統姓名及漢人姓名本部竟表尊重"},{"start":1385.007,"end":1397.303,"text":"鄭天財委員等21人提案修正第九條條文徵定臺灣原住民族基於文化習俗改名者不受改名次數之限制本部禁表尊重。"},{"start":1398.339,"end":1421.417,"text":"五、另按原住民身份法第三條規定,原住民取用姓名與其身份息息相關,本次新增姓名的單列原住民族文字,是為納入該條規範,有原住民姓名單列原住民族文字,上涉及各界資訊系統功能調整等配套的措施,以予適當的實例。"},{"start":1423.599,"end":1431.661,"text":"必妥為因應以維護原住民族權益,故建議考量第二條的施行日期。」"},{"start":1446.169,"end":1453.011,"text":"姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":1465.573,"end":1492.086,"text":"以上我就只有這五個介紹所以下次大家可以見到我的時候也叫我Jewas但是呢千萬別叫阿力喔阿力是我媽媽喔Jewas是我的名字那阿力呢是竹筍你們吃過竹筍吧對泰雅竹呢就是竹筍的意思所以你看我們原住民的名字都跟大自然在一起謝謝接下來我們請原民會股仲這個副主委"},{"start":1496.739,"end":1523.944,"text":"主席還有各位委員那我想在報告之前我先針對我的恢復傳統姓名這部分先做報告那民國90年的4月27號因為法律的容許我將我原來的漢姓去做修正恢復我傳統的姓名叫古仲克勒方安那近幾年剛好在簽戶籍的時候就順便一道把羅馬拼音古仲克勒方安"},{"start":1524.824,"end":1543.14,"text":"第二條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":1553.71,"end":1561.438,"text":"四條條文修正草案。」案。在此提出報告。首先,關於《姓名條例主管機關內政部》剛剛部長已經針對大院所"},{"start":1563.72,"end":1588.496,"text":"大用委員所提《姓名條例部分條文修正草案》的分析意見本會競表贊同。其次,陳柔剛剛Saidhai委員也提出報告,在現行的法例裡面,嚴重民主語言發展法第一條規定,嚴重民主語言為國家的語言。第二條規定,嚴重民主文字是指用以記錄嚴重民主語言之書寫系統。"},{"start":1590.337,"end":1606.452,"text":"《國家語言發展法》第4條規定,國家語言一律平等,國民使用國家語言應不受歧視或限制,以原住民族文字單獨登記傳統名字,可以彰顯語言之平等地位。"},{"start":1607.413,"end":1634.628,"text":"另外以原住民族文字單獨登記原住民族傳統名字可以精準呈現名字的發音提升文化認同並有助於傳承各族的命名文化及制度也符合原住民族族人長期的期待所以對於委員的這個修正提案法律的修正提案我們本會是樂觀期間以上報告敬請委員指教謝謝"},{"start":1639.652,"end":1658.646,"text":"其他單位的報告我們就請委員執行參閱並且刊登公報現在進行詢答委員執行前我們按照慣例做以下節點宣告第一個是本會和原住民委員發言時間是4分鐘必要的時候延長2分鐘不是本會委員發言是4分鐘"},{"start":1659.346,"end":1661.468,"text":"上午10時30分截止發言登記。"},{"start":1684.815,"end":1707.112,"text":"三、審查委員沙利嘎嘎麦布隆等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三名條文修正草案案案。三、審查委員沙利嘎嘎麦布隆等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第四名條文修正草案案。三、審查委員沙利嘎嘎麦布隆等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第四名條文修正草案案。三、審查委員沙利嘎麦布隆等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第四名條文修正草案案。三、審查委員沙利嘎麦布隆等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第四名條文"},{"start":1713.26,"end":1717.883,"text":"姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":1741.215,"end":1755.718,"text":"所以我想是今天我們在處理這個原住民的傳統姓名我自己真的是深切感受我記得我八年前第一次有機會到立法院擔任國會議員的時候對原民會的質詢就是質詢關於名字的部分為什麼?因為我的先生回復了傳統姓名龍南Isaac Farnas"},{"start":1762.62,"end":1778.859,"text":"我的女兒兩個從出生就是用傳統姓名命名Sau Ma Su Fangas Saolin Su Fangas為什麼因為我們知道在當年他們出生的時候十幾年前十三四年前社會對原名認同名字的認同"},{"start":1779.62,"end":1805.544,"text":"還沒有像現在這麼的普遍我們的職棒明星我們這個歌手大家都用傳統姓名行走在世界上面對自己的族人與世界但當時需要更多有聲量有分配的人率先做這件事所以我們選擇了用傳統姓名直接幫孩子登記在戶口名簿上讓他們未來就是這樣知道他是阿美族和漢族的孩子"},{"start":1806.024,"end":1811.432,"text":"好 可是部長今天就是要跟您請教了因為我發現過往我等一下要問的問題問原民會是得不到答案的原來是內政部為什麼我要問的問題其實就是我們命名完成了之後呢其實會遇到很多現實上的困難"},{"start":1823.628,"end":1845.624,"text":"這個困難就是來自於政府機關或公司部門在填名字的時候那個電腦來問資源不夠這麼簡單的事情但是就是對我非常困擾我有多少次我收到衛生局的通知單的時候你知道我是什麼嗎我不是掃碼的媽媽我不是掃令的媽媽我是見記事欄媽媽"},{"start":1851.05,"end":1876.884,"text":"因為他的名字填不夠啊所以當時他在登記的時候他就寫建記式欄的意思是他的名字很長齁此人用原住民傳統姓名登記名字為什麼什麼什麼這才寫得很長嘛但是他在Excel表格套用的時候即便連政府機關他都沒有辦法去回推因為他就是啪啪啪電腦打出去嘛所以我收到了多少張通知單我叫做建記式欄媽媽"},{"start":1879.325,"end":1906.416,"text":"鄭季氏蘭太太。」你知道那個心情嗎?所以當時我來的時候請原民會第一件事情就是我們要恢復鼓勵大家使用傳統姓名但我沒有給他便利性所以部長八年後的現在我終於搞清楚了這件事情自圓不管是公部門或者公部門帶頭私部門你知道嗎我在填機票填信用卡的時候都超級難用的因為自圓都不對啊還有到底什麼是姓什麼是名"},{"start":1908.558,"end":1928.16,"text":"請問,我的問題很單純,內政部護政司有沒有辦法為我們原住民族人朋友解決這個問題?是,我非常贊成委員剛剛所提的這樣子的一個理念。是,當然但是還有實際操作啊。是,委員我跟您報告,其實我個人認為,"},{"start":1929.778,"end":1954.912,"text":"其實姓名的認同其實非常的重要所以剛剛在提到其實這個代表了社會的一個進步還有一個整個社會文化的一個提升所以我非常非常支持也非常贊成我們族人這個姓名的一個單列其他的這些問題跟困難是行政機關要來解決是我已經質詢很多次了行政機關要來解決而且應該要來調整"},{"start":1956.593,"end":1978.678,"text":"那剛剛提到的資源不夠的一個問題我請那個司長這邊來說明現在基本上護意證系統是沒有問題的護意證系統沒有問題但是要嫁接到其他而且要能夠通令到大家能夠也是如此做啦老實說這八年確實有點進步啦那我埋沒質詢過很多次包括徐部長我記得我有跟他討論過這樣的問題好那所以因為時間的關係第一個就是要求內政部的態度好部長清楚表態那剩下就是技術問題"},{"start":1985.14,"end":2000.593,"text":"即便是應該有新增的預算去改變電腦系統我覺得這件事情都應該做尤其是公部門帶頭之後私部門才會跟著做這是第一件事情第二件事情姓名對我們公開來講還有什麼很快會立刻遇到的問題隱私權保障"},{"start":2001.334,"end":2024.738,"text":"不讓你和我如果被秀上去在不管是看病名單或學校公布欄或任何其他地方要有姓名的隱私保障的時候我們是什麼我說書圈會嘛或者是書橋圈嘛你是林圈倉嘛或者是之類的但我的孩子呢我的孩子就是這樣啊全部的人有誰不知道這個是這個是我的小孩對不對那看醫生看病的時候誰不知道這個是這個"},{"start":2031.004,"end":2054.591,"text":"二、審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":2060.189,"end":2075.957,"text":"我完全同意,所以剛剛委員提到的這個問題,當然這個涉及個資的部分,不完全是內政部,不過委員提到這個問題,內政部願意來跟找這部分的討論。是,其實後來我跟學校溝通,學校就會直接把後面直接去掉嘛。是。"},{"start":2077.398,"end":2102.771,"text":"對,我覺得這是一個觀念,那只有公部門率先帶頭實施之後,那社會才會上行下效。所以今天替我特別利用這個時間,藉由部長的回答,在讓各界知道我們有這樣的問題,也知道很感謝政府是肯定的態度。是,全力支持。好,非常謝謝這個阿美族的媳婦喬惠,然後阿美族的媽媽喬惠。"},{"start":2106.503,"end":2118.811,"text":"阿美族小孩的媽媽我們希望今天大家在這邊討論這個問題大家都很肯定希望在實務上面真的能夠來落實好不好繼續我們請張宏路委員來質詢我請部長跟副主委我們有請林部長跟古仲副主委謝謝"},{"start":2141.634,"end":2162.312,"text":"部長我到剛剛才知道原來我的原住民的名字跟你是一模一樣因為以前我在當民政局長的時候這是我業務他們也幫我取個名字然後結果是跟你一樣不過今天我相信很多應該不同一個媽媽"},{"start":2165.462,"end":2182.353,"text":"因為我們新北有很多原住民的朋友所以沒關係所以就是有緣那其實今天這個我看姓名應該很多的立委的同仁都會問我就問一個比較另外的事情"},{"start":2184.71,"end":2212.17,"text":"這個副主委還有部長其實我之前就一直關心啊這個像我們很多的這個原住民族的朋友他都是在當警察的對不對那我們那時候有說如果警察取得族語認證那會有族語認證的話原鄉有出缺會講族語者有比較有機會回到原鄉嘛那時候你們兩個部會啊有說要協調"},{"start":2213.311,"end":2215.693,"text":"那我不知道目前的進度是如何?這個應該是原民會你們主動協調的我們時間暫停一下"},{"start":2231.738,"end":2259.097,"text":"委員是不是這個部分因為今天警政署沒有來最新的一個進度是不是榮會後再跟你做報告好沒有關係請問一下園民會知不知道這件事情跟委員報告我想這個委員關心多年那這個部分我們有跟時間可以繼續了我不要佔用人家時間有跟警政署協調但是現在還沒有定案那原則上我們是希望就是針對他的恢復總統名字或是他的主委能力我們能夠在他的這個簽調上能夠有"},{"start":2262.399,"end":2289.606,"text":"對對對我知道我們那時候就是說他有恢復他的傳統名字然後主語認證所以有傳統名字跟今天有有點像我才問你們原民會的嘛那原民會你們現在我只是想要說有沒有去做這件事情我們進度有沒有什麼這個副主委應該可以回答啦這個我們有做協調過那現在針對這個部分還沒有定案那我們這個還會再仔細跟警政署做協調"},{"start":2293.109,"end":2293.449,"text":"有協調過沒有訂單。"},{"start":2303.895,"end":2330.527,"text":"就是足以認證的部分已經可以列入這個簽調的參考那傳統姓名的部分還沒有?以上目前進度是這樣傳統姓名的部分還沒啦我相信今天為什麼要趁這個機會啦我相信部長也在這啦如果你們原民會然後我們他們鼓勵這個原民去認證這些我相信警政署應該也不會去反對吧"},{"start":2333.314,"end":2359.245,"text":"委員你剛剛提到有兩個部分第一個是因為他的這個調回原鄉要這個加分的這個問題剛剛副主委大概有提到如果是有取得語言的認證因為這個有一個資格然後另外這個有一個門檻這部分警政署我會回頭再確認不過剛剛原民會這邊聽起來是這部分我們警政署是有把它納入那不過剛剛提到如果說只是改"},{"start":2360.225,"end":2373.311,"text":"改築他的原住民的名字回復傳統的姓名的話這部分警政署可能有一些疑慮就是說他可能有一些道德風險在這邊不不不 這兩個條件是都要的"},{"start":2374.458,"end":2389.732,"text":"我們那時候講的是兩個條件如果我每個人都去改回去就可以有高積分我覺得這樣也很奇怪我們會後確認完之後再跟委員做回覆好沒關係我只是說這個我已經這個問題我關心很久了所以趁這個機會再問一下好不好好謝謝"},{"start":2402.514,"end":2421.229,"text":"好,謝謝黃委員的質詢。繼續就是高金素梅委員要質詢,我請這個建兵委員代理主席,謝謝部長。謝謝,謝謝,我們請高金委員質詢。謝謝主席,有請部長還有股東副主委。請部長還有股東副主委。"},{"start":2434.469,"end":2436.29,"text":"三、審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2450.015,"end":2473.715,"text":"我認為都是立了一個很好的示範然後就讓我們繼續往前走所以相關的部會我希望在今天我們這個條文修正之後能夠落實的來執行然後如果是預算的問題那麼就請預算來編列預算如果是技術性的問題的話我們也請這個副政司能夠跟園民會充分的做好這個平台好嗎"},{"start":2474.541,"end":2476.003,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":2482.654,"end":2506.586,"text":"在我要審查這個條文之前我必須要跟大家說明一下有關原住民姓名使用的文字我們不會再稱為羅馬拼音因為大家都說原住民的這些看起來像是羅馬拼音事實上我們不叫羅馬拼音了因為呢各族群也就是有16個族群我們有自己的書寫系統"},{"start":2508.647,"end":2526.898,"text":"有了,那這個書寫系統我們是不是請古仲稍微簡單跟大家介紹一下。這個書寫系統呢,我們稱為原住民族的文字對不對?就是原住民族文字的書寫系統呢,其實在民國94年,我們已經跟教育部已經會選公告,有41種的語言、語言別。"},{"start":2531.1,"end":2555.821,"text":"所以你看到我們今天我們有特別講一下第二條原住民的文字是指用以來請助理再回來這個以記錄原住民語言的書寫系統所以我們已經有文字的書寫系統了所以希望大家不要再誤解然後說原住民的名字的取名的是用羅馬拼音所以可能為了大家學習的方向還蠻多的"},{"start":2557.782,"end":2579.791,"text":"所以今天在我的修法版本已經提出了也在質詢之前也跟大家說明希望大家能夠清楚也能夠了解然後繼續來看一下2023年12月18號立法院三讀通過原住民族身份法的修正草案修法之後原住民和非原住民結婚就是我的爸爸跟我媽媽所生的孩子就是我"},{"start":2581.392,"end":2606.29,"text":"不要再像以前以前我的名字叫金素梅那我要恢復原住民身份所以我必須要加一個媽媽的姓高所以我叫高金素梅對這是在2023年12月18號之前所以大家會覺得為什麼你以前叫金素梅現在叫高金素梅就是我們還沒有修法所以我們必須要把媽媽的姓放前面才能夠代表我是原住民這是很荒謬的一個認定對吧"},{"start":2607.731,"end":2631.051,"text":"但是2023年12月18號修法之後呢就不用了我們就直接可以把這個加原住民的文字的姓名並列就可以取得原住民身份對吧古仲是好所以我今天要跟副主委反映這也也看到了幾個問題就是我辦公室我不知道原民會有沒有這個困擾就是有很多人很想要回復到原住民的名字但是呢他們隨便亂取"},{"start":2632.512,"end":2654.174,"text":"而且他們也不清到怎麼取有時候他是布農族他取到阿美族的名字所以在文化認同上面其實是非常混淆的請問原民會你們有什麼樣的方式來解決這個問題我想陳祖剛委員所報告就是這個條文修正之後我們其實也常常收到我們的主人"},{"start":2656.555,"end":2683.25,"text":"因為這個主人到都市就業或是就寫之後也長期可能有一些就長期跟部落的連結就比較少了少了以後他們又加上通婚的關係那生子或是孫子之後他們要取名字就找不到他的根源所以我們都會鼓勵他就是要回到他的根源往上緣去追溯就可以追溯到他應有的名字"},{"start":2683.79,"end":2711.472,"text":"所以你應該怎麼做不能夠被動式的讓他們因為有很多陳寗所說的他已經在部落很久了他也許是二代了那他根本跟部落沒有連結那當然第一個我們現行就是我們有針對互義政機關我們有做一個恢復傳統姓名的工作指引不過面對現在都市化的一個現行的這個狀況我想我們原民會有責任針對原住民族的姓名"},{"start":2712.733,"end":2726.182,"text":"傳統姓名去做一個調查跟整理可以給我們千禧都市的族人做一個依循跟參考不過最重要就是他還是要追溯他本身的族跟他的家族所以你同意我今天的修法嗎方向嗎"},{"start":2727.483,"end":2743.579,"text":"關於委員的修法嚴懲喪失可行,不過針對審議的部分可能會有一些難度。有什麼樣的難度?比如說我舉例以我家裡的現況就是有通婚,像布林組跟阿美組通婚,那通婚的結果"},{"start":2744.52,"end":2770.675,"text":"像我的外甥他的名字就取他雖然戶籍登記是寫阿美族但是他是取我們布農族的名字因為他們合意去決定的另外一個就是像我們布農族取名像我們家族是名字在前面氏族在後面但是有一個家族像伊斯坦大他們的家族決定他的氏族名要在前面所以他叫伊斯坦大什麼就是這樣所以有很多的狀況可能跟現實"},{"start":2772.256,"end":2792.117,"text":"你現在就已經舉了兩個例子了所以事實上原民會你們是有方式去調查跟研究的只是你們可能沒有把它列為這個實務上面的執行方面所以在這邊我要求你兩個月之內跟內政部和戶政司研議你們要提出一些報告好不好"},{"start":2792.517,"end":2817.091,"text":"第二條及第三條及第四條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":2821.021,"end":2825.123,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":2836.006,"end":2841.751,"text":"原住民族國家語言發展法第一條已經開宗明義地說原住民族語言是國家的語言,因此我們族人就可以使用原住民族的文字作為姓名的登記。"},{"start":2859.446,"end":2878.215,"text":"既然是國家議員為什麼不可以增加單列原住民族文字的選項呢所以我要在這邊請部長還有我們的副主委還有我們的內政部的護政司對不對請你們來尊重一下我們原民會的立場也尊重一下族人立場可以嗎"},{"start":2879.775,"end":2881.117,"text":"姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員"},{"start":2895.094,"end":2911.557,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第二條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":2922.739,"end":2930.217,"text":"審查委員的名字其實是有意義的。所以在護照上面的使用,字數有沒有限制?技術上有沒有問題?"},{"start":2933.57,"end":2962.077,"text":"日報告委員目前護照上的登載方式是依據戶籍資料上的登載對所以你的意思說戶籍資料如果改變的話你們外交部的護照上面也會改變是是好這是需不需要需不需要這個預算的編列讓你們的書寫系統來改變這個軟硬體系統都要改然後可能也要周知國外的各政府機關因為會變成跟我們現在出去的版本長得不太一樣對所以怕避免原住民族出去造成困擾到時候可能這個版本也要周知各國"},{"start":2962.797,"end":2985.42,"text":"所以今天我們這些版本或是今天修法通過的話,你們就必須要做,對不對?你們沒有意見吧?最後請大家看一下臺北市政府在行政院院會的態度。預期行政院修法支持原住民族單列原住民族文字。所以我也希望中央機關也能夠有這樣的態度。今天看起來大家都是往好的方向。"},{"start":2986.121,"end":3002.955,"text":"非常感謝大家是,我跟您報告剛剛我已經非常明確的表示這個中央在政策上我們是支持那也會在執行面上跟相關部會我們來一起討論然後把這個執行面的部分把它完整的一併做處理,謝謝"},{"start":3004.056,"end":3014.184,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":3030.635,"end":3034.397,"text":"姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員姓名條例部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":3051.843,"end":3062.626,"text":"二、審查委員佛長及副主委,在這兩天我們長久以來,看到我們的社會對關注民的關心及付出。因為我認為每一個政策裡面,無分你及我,也無分誰,即使他的作權、他的背景照顧得好,他的管理,"},{"start":3076.889,"end":3081.634,"text":"一定要保持,所以剛才我們很多董事坐在這裡看到我們今天的交易,"},{"start":3085.913,"end":3104.438,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例第二條及第〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":3110.438,"end":3132.114,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3141.399,"end":3169.892,"text":"報告委員我們呼籲這系統其實我們已經有在研議要緊急板根來因應單列羅馬拼音的事情所以第一階段我們會在5月17號就來緊急板根如果這個過的話我們第一階段就先板根那個部分比如說這個姓名變更登記嘛他的身份證戶口名簿跟戶籍藤本這個我們會在第一階段先緊急板根讓他可以馬上可以登記"},{"start":3170.652,"end":3170.712,"text":"後續會陸續配合"},{"start":3182.881,"end":3197.724,"text":"姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":3212.086,"end":3213.547,"text":"五月十七日公開公開公開公開公開公開公開"},{"start":3238.874,"end":3243.16,"text":"因為我覺得今天的大家的意見應該是沒有什麼會一直關於退縮這個問題。在這方面我覺得要趕緊,因為剛才副主委說有一些問題會存在,"},{"start":3254.635,"end":3275.795,"text":"我認為這要去克服,因為我認為長久以來我們對於原住民的照顧,說實在我相信大家都有看到,小英政府這中間不可以對原住民的照顧是非常多,尤其原住民的期限在離空一千年,"},{"start":3276.576,"end":3293.647,"text":"二、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":3296.849,"end":3320.6,"text":"第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":3321.701,"end":3325.552,"text":"他們要輸出還是我們政府可以協助他們來補充工資。"},{"start":3328.118,"end":3349.095,"text":"我相信現在我們所有政經在外的時候它都有相關規範的一個規定所以原則上應該是照現在的一個規範的一個規定啊,第二,剛才有什麼說我們需要一點點時間剛才有聽到說我們外交部呼叫,該是一回事但是我們要通知、要通告其他的國家這需要一點時間,不然的話,要靠外國"},{"start":3352.057,"end":3370.523,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":3371.483,"end":3373.547,"text":"三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":3386.471,"end":3389.794,"text":"姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":3402.004,"end":3407.506,"text":"在我們的法律當中,可以讓它正確,不只是一天就審查得對。因為我覺得這非常要緊,還有未來,剛才我說的這個費用雖然保證,只有原地安的規則,我們是不是可以演繹一個"},{"start":3424.312,"end":3438.895,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":3452.242,"end":3468.49,"text":"是否只有我們內政部的部分就是換他的內政部要不然甘民素來一路副主委本身來你們問一下所有的單位我對我們原住民我的資料想問一下不用問了嗎要不然補償咧加數咧這是非常重要所以你要為原住民立法院的權益給你給我維護"},{"start":3481.336,"end":3501.802,"text":"我想針對恢復傳統姓名的這個便利性包括規費的部分跟各部會有交代過協調會那有些部會在這部分是還沒有同意不過這個就是我們要努力的方向剛剛委員提的部分我們會用你差不多有多久可以主流給本縣我們大概兩週內就給好我們的執行請請給委員主席拜託一下好謝謝非常謝謝每位委員"},{"start":3510.635,"end":3514.478,"text":"審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":3541.189,"end":3545.838,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我們先請內政部部長。有請林部長。"},{"start":3551.798,"end":3571.568,"text":"部長好首先請教一下這個姓名條例啦因為其實在4月1號的時候我就有質詢過了那我那時候質詢說這個我們單列族名的進度如何當時其實我們原民會以這樣主委他有給我一個正面的承諾他是說希望今年有機會先用韓式的方式那也會說會帶回跟部裡來討論"},{"start":3573.769,"end":3584.724,"text":"三條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3591.192,"end":3609.131,"text":"在4月1號之後有新的進度那有沒有什麼時候會先把這個函式做出來還是說你們在這個過渡期就是姓名條例修正之後以及所有的技術上克服之前你們這中間有什麼還能做的呢"},{"start":3613.23,"end":3630.598,"text":"公務員報告我們內政部在3月28號已經有把這個原名會要函式的文字回給原名會那這個應該這個必須要做一些預告那預告的一個時間可能要請原名會來做說明好那我們請原名會來說明"},{"start":3632.572,"end":3656.946,"text":"國中副主委鄭委員報告有關於這個預告的部分我們在4月30號已經預告了那一級預告到5月6號藉此我們會跟內政部來會選來發布解釋令好那聽起來已經是蠻有進度的在5月6號之後就可以有一個相關的發布大概是韓式就可以發布了嗎對韓式之後會公告"},{"start":3657.843,"end":3676.273,"text":"好,好,謝謝,謝謝部長,謝謝副主委。那再來我就是要請教一些具體的,因為其實剛剛巧惠委員也有提到說,因為即便我們今天姓名條例通過,那之後二三讀或者是說這個函式下來之後,其實中間還有一些行政作業,那這個行政作業確實是需要一些技術上的"},{"start":3677.433,"end":3689.899,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":3697.608,"end":3713.571,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":3727.867,"end":3748.359,"text":"有關緊急緊急板根的部分我們已經預作因應可以讓這個姓名條例或者是函式過的時候可以緊急來讓原住民朋友們他們可以來馬上來登記這個部分我們會緊急板根那後續因為牽涉到的一些項目非常的多每一個申請書裡面要讓他單列羅馬拼音的部分"},{"start":3751.221,"end":3766.209,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":3778.124,"end":3796.07,"text":"對阿可不可以給大家期待一下說我們這整個作業的時程大概什麼時候是跟委員報告因為今天我們在提案這個委員提案在修這個法律那我們之前行政上面我們做了一些準備的工作沒有錯不過這個需要更全面"},{"start":3796.69,"end":3812.62,"text":"二、姓名條例第三條及第四條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八"},{"start":3820.365,"end":3834.462,"text":"是的,地方聖事也要趕快聖事因為現在法律還沒有通過所以地方包括我們的行政的人員其實他也不熟悉這一塊所以他可能還需要有一些教育訓練等等"},{"start":3836.103,"end":3853.639,"text":"姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案"},{"start":3857.603,"end":3880.329,"text":"那我想問一下請請教一下園民會在這個違憲的公告出來之後你們有沒有開始做相關的準備了目前手上的進度草案在哪裡跟我們報告我們這個已經有先做委託研究跟意見的徵詢那草案我們很快就會在時間內趕快提到院裡面時間內是因為現在已經過了一年半囉"},{"start":3882.139,"end":3886.717,"text":"所以你們研究是什麼時候研究出來?大概在8、9月就會提送"},{"start":3887.679,"end":3916.004,"text":"所以8、9等於是下個會期你們就會把你們的版本送進來我們就可以把這個釋憲的部分把它修正通過是好那很感謝那目前當然就是希望我們呃園民會可以加速這部分因為其實時間也蠻趕的從2022年那他也是給只有給三年的時間嗎三年希望修正通過那我相信這個也是很多平埔族的原住民希望可以趕快做轉型正義的部分"},{"start":3916.764,"end":3938.975,"text":"好那當然最後還是希望說我們內政部在呃就是這整個時程上可以趕快告訴大家具體的時間是什麼這個是大家最想知道的那感謝部里其實都很支持我們單列族民這個可以來通過呃委員跟對不起委員跟你報告一下哈我想我們呃會把堅得到所有的行政機關的部分要處理"},{"start":3939.94,"end":3943.144,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":3952.176,"end":3953.477,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":3979.825,"end":3997.564,"text":"謝謝我們請股仲副主委我們今天今天高金召委特別安排這個姓名條例修正草案的這個會議讓我們所有原住民朋友要"},{"start":3998.306,"end":4013.672,"text":"回復他傳統姓名有一個依據。」我覺得這個我們要先感謝除了高金召委之外那伍麗華委員也提出相關的版本那目前為止啦目前為止都是民進黨委員的質詢的質詢其實也都"},{"start":4017.493,"end":4035.931,"text":"朝向非常支持的態度。並且一直在幫忙想,到底這個姓名條例修正之後,那內政部、務政司還有多少的單位包含外交部,甚至包含所有的單位,甚至銀行,"},{"start":4036.972,"end":4065.239,"text":"金管會等等的要做多少的配套才可以符合當我們原住民朋友恢復他的姓名用他原住民語言用羅馬拼音登記在他的身份上的時候其他社會上他所面臨的所有生活必須會碰到的問題都想要做一個討論所以我現在沒有質詢部長所以我請教你你哪一年恢復你的這個"},{"start":4066.874,"end":4093.713,"text":"但是還不到現在這麼進步還不到用現在當然要進步到這個羅馬拼音現在你哪一年恢復你古仲這個名字那你叫你古仲這個名字之前呢你有沒有漢漢文的名字好跟委員報告我恢復傳統姓名古仲克勒方安是在民國90年4月27號那4月27號之前我姓何姓何何必問的何"},{"start":4095.319,"end":4110.537,"text":"那你民國90年也就是2001年恢復叫古仲之後你在生活上你的你有沒有更換護照或者是你生活上遇到的哪一些問題你覺得可以提出來當然"},{"start":4113.491,"end":4126.97,"text":"當時恢復傳統姓名的人是很少所以在國內我們一般社會大眾會把我們當成是非本國籍的這個國民所以有時候到醫院拿健保卡的時候"},{"start":4127.551,"end":4143.084,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":4155.535,"end":4182.3,"text":"大社會大眾認識臺灣原住民。我們非常支持那我也覺得這是一個非常自信的展現但是我們擔心的是在接下去我們要再進一步的時候我們在生活上所會遇到的問題我現在就請教你嘛除了銀行開戶除了你的護照那有時候甚至可能要到警察局這個警察人員在"},{"start":4184.264,"end":4198.016,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4208.854,"end":4229.771,"text":"你會不會擔心有一點遇到會有一點不方便的事情你可以提出來現在提出來原則上因為我改恢復傳統名字很久了所以我說再進一步生活上是用這個那其實就是像我們一般就是傳統姓名恢復之後當然在護照上有時候就因為他會直接把你中文用"},{"start":4230.652,"end":4248.14,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":4251.081,"end":4255.226,"text":"三、審查委員會第16期內政委員會第16期內政委員會第17期內政委員會第18期內政委員會第18期內政委員會第18期內政委員會第18期內政委員會第18期內政委員會第18期內政委員會第18期內政委員會第18期內政委員會第18期內政委員會第18期內政委員會第18期內政委員會"},{"start":4266.252,"end":4270.618,"text":"二、審查委員規費部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具"},{"start":4284.076,"end":4308.925,"text":"第三個是我們希望恢復傳統姓名能夠便利性稱如王美惠委員提到就是單一窗口的部分其實我們嚴明會也在檢討這個部分因為未來我們也希望我們地方的嚴明單位也能夠配合就是可以成為我們主要恢復傳統姓名的單一窗口未來主人也不要到監理站又到不遵守對這是我們要努力的方向對謝謝謝謝股東副主委我想今天這個"},{"start":4310.065,"end":4326.598,"text":"希望這個原民會針對這個姓名條例之後要提出所有的需求面對我們原住民朋友他們如果恢復他們的姓名的話生活上所會碰到的問題我們請內政部一併跟上來一起來一起來讓這個事情更進步謝謝"},{"start":4328.154,"end":4342.037,"text":"二、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":4362.264,"end":4382.323,"text":"二、審查委員吳輝道等21人擬具、「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":4387.272,"end":4414.571,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":4427.683,"end":4453.764,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具、「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":4459.907,"end":4487.668,"text":"三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21"},{"start":4488.268,"end":4510.571,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具、「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":4511.732,"end":4535.287,"text":"三、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具、「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":4538.469,"end":4559.551,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":4561.152,"end":4581.286,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具、「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":4582.186,"end":4597.255,"text":"二、姓名條例第三條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八"},{"start":4609.134,"end":4624.441,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具、「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":4648.865,"end":4657.332,"text":"全體委員會第11屆第1會期內政委員會第1屆第2會期內政委員會第3會期內政委員會第4會期內政委員會第5會期內政委員會第6會期內政委員會第7會期內政委員會第8會期內政委員會第9會期內政委員會第10會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第11會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期內政委員會第12會期"},{"start":4674.684,"end":4699.866,"text":"第2條及第3條及第4條及第5條及第6條及第7條及第8條及第8條及第9條及第10條及第11條及第11條及第12條及第12條及第11條及第12條及第12條及第11條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第11條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及"},{"start":4700.779,"end":4722.844,"text":"我們繼續請張志倫張志倫張志倫提書面報告繼續取徐益臻委員主席是不是請林部長跟園民會副主委我們有請林部長跟股中副主委謝謝"},{"start":4728.918,"end":4754.914,"text":"剛剛聽到一些委員質詢聽到您的回覆也是針對這個姓名條例修正的部分您其實是給予全力的支持所以這個部分原則上應該是沒有什麼問題那但是呢我想這個因為有有要針對原住民的這個姓名的更改有很多很多後續我們要來去面對的問題包括說羅馬拼音一般人看到是不是能夠準確的發音"},{"start":4756.075,"end":4763.572,"text":"二條及第三條及第四條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":4766.046,"end":4788.544,"text":"根委員報告。對於大社會對於原住民族文字這個認知或是認識的部分,這是我們菸米會會持續再去做推廣的部分。所以我們在對於護證單位的這個工作呢,我們也訂定一個工作指南給他們做參考。如果我們族人去恢復傳統姓名的話,他們也可以做一些認識跟參考。"},{"start":4789.492,"end":4812.185,"text":"對,所以針對戶政還有跟這個民政的部分,這相關的這個,比如說你們大概覺得要多久的時間才能夠處理好這個問題?我個人認為,其實這是一個,這是一個要持續性進行的,其實包括我個人都需要學習,雖然我有阿美族的名字,但是說實在其他語族,我也不會念。"},{"start":4813.086,"end":4832.676,"text":"但是我覺得這個就是讓社會有一個這樣子的一個瞭解認識跟認同那這樣子對於我們原住民族的文化跟習俗真的整個大的社會才有辦法彼此瞭解彼此瞭解的時候才不會有有一些這個誤會啊誤解那這個可以促進整個社會的這個和諧"},{"start":4834.677,"end":4850.416,"text":"我覺得這個是非常重要關鍵的一步那政府機關比如說在我們整個文官的體系裡面我們內政部所俠管的這個系統其實我們要學其實這個可能需要一個比較長的時間但是我認為是說從今年我們就要啟動"},{"start":4852.739,"end":4858.423,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〉姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〉姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4873.168,"end":4889.299,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":4899.526,"end":4916.904,"text":"傳統名字拼音系統音譯規範指引。」這個部分我們會把原住民族人的族人名譜會用網路數位化給大社會知道包括也可以有錄音讓一般社會可以在"},{"start":4917.725,"end":4936.387,"text":"對,要不然說實在我們拿到您的名片我可能也不會唸所以我覺得這個都需要學習然後另外我剛聽到很多委員都提出一些相關可能延伸的問題那本席這邊是有想到一個您可以看一下就是目前這個台胞證的部分"},{"start":4937.688,"end":4945.25,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具"},{"start":4957.922,"end":4985.497,"text":"內政部應協助處理?謝謝委員提醒這部分可能到時候需要陸委會跟海期會因為這需要協商那我覺得這的確是一個新產生的課題這可能需要這兩個部會來去共同來去幫我們的原住民解決這個問題這個部分謝謝委員因為這不是內政部的選擇範圍不過我們會來跟院來做報告跟反應那另外再請教您就部長您有沒有去過大陸?"},{"start":4986.585,"end":4993.392,"text":"我曾經去過去過所以您也是有台胞症嗎?早就失效了那請問你擔不擔心這個個資的外洩的問題?個資的問題我們自己國內的像數位身份證的暫緩就是因為擔心個資的問題嗎?那比如像這個部分您會不會擔心?"},{"start":5009.873,"end":5034.89,"text":"各支因為你所謂的各支是指的是我大概跟部長報告一下就是說我們現在申請台胞證您知道要附什麼證件嗎因為我已經很久遠了不是很知道我告訴你有身份證護照跟照片這是一般狀況可是有一個很特別的狀況就是在2023年的時候規定雙胞胎一定要有詳細的戶籍藤本"},{"start":5036.344,"end":5043.568,"text":"請問部長為什麼這就是要申請胎胞證的話請問大陸怎麼會知道申請人是不是雙胞胎這個我請這個課題我不是很清楚並沒有特別掌握是不是請司長如果他瞭解的話來說明一下"},{"start":5055.838,"end":5059.98,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5073.084,"end":5086.053,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具、「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":5098.021,"end":5126.548,"text":"非常詳細包括身份證字號、姓名、家庭成員、戶籍跟原住民族身分別所以這個理論上應該是內政部的這個戶證的這個個資那為什麼大陸方面會有這方面的所以我在這邊嚴重的懷疑是不是當時的個資因為洩漏出去所以在2023年這個大陸那邊才會要求雙胞胎也要附上戶籍藤本所以當時的個資的部分外線的部分請問內政部現在"},{"start":5127.969,"end":5137.843,"text":"二條及第三條及第四條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":5139.276,"end":5167.664,"text":"這個資料並不是,已經查清楚了,法務部也查清楚了,並不是內政部我們的護意證系統直接流出去,也不是遭駭客的入侵。那是什麼樣的狀況?這個他們調查大概有可能,有可能是因為使用護意證的系統在全國有70幾個機關每一年都在使用,所以有可能是從這些使用的機關。所以目前還沒查到是哪一個機關洩漏出去了就對了?"},{"start":5169.064,"end":5188.192,"text":"他有一些方向不過那個法務部因為他們還在持續調查所以今天本期是點出這個問題就是說我很訝異說為什麼大陸會知道我們的國人是不是雙胞胎而要求他附上戶籍藤本因為不了解這個個案的一個狀況對可能還是要請你們要查清楚謝謝好謝謝徐立正委員的質詢謝謝部長謝謝國眾副組委繼續我們請黃建斌委員質詢"},{"start":5204.881,"end":5205.964,"text":"有請林部長及國中副主委"},{"start":5215.196,"end":5235.793,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具、「姓名條例第二條及第二條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":5240.397,"end":5252.189,"text":"人口28000多人,佔原住民4.79%。未來這個法通過之後,漁民會這邊有沒有其他作為可以提高這個比例?"},{"start":5256.068,"end":5270.141,"text":"跟委員報告,我們是持續召開恢復傳統姓名的這個便利措施的協調。那我們也鼓勵我們的地方政府呢,針對不管是恢復傳統姓名的單一窗口或是貴賓的部分來協助。"},{"start":5271.963,"end":5300.37,"text":"所以在姓名恢復上是有增加增加了好那接下來就是問到一些比較務實的事情像是我們如果新生兒要重新用就是用我們的新的主義的方式命名他或許不會比較大的問題但像假設像本席這樣子本席有原住民身份我要恢復的話他可能問題就會比較多一點包括我從所有的資料都要併根那包括我的結婚證書可能要改這些都要改名字"},{"start":5301.21,"end":5320.253,"text":"第二條及第三條及第四條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":5322.759,"end":5343.659,"text":"公務員報告,確實在實務上,除了你在互證機關恢復傳統姓名之外,你現有的相關的證件,包括駕照、要去檢理照、換的都要換。所以這個就是我們嚴明會針對為什麼我們要持續來推動恢復傳統姓名單一窗口這個工作。當然因為涉及的面很廣,我們要去協調。"},{"start":5344.4,"end":5361.986,"text":"本席要說的是說在不同的部會裡面他就要各自去辦理嘛對不對像你互證的跟地證就要分開來辦嘛我們還不包括我們民間比如說我在銀行的存款有什麼資料都要弄嘛那是不是因為這個是考這個是因為我們的整個系統沒有聯動的這個勾結的關係嘛"},{"start":5363.326,"end":5384.164,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":5393.668,"end":5410.213,"text":"委員跟你報告一下,我來幫委員稍微說一下,因為這個牽扯的範圍會非常非常廣。你想得到的,現在想得到的,或者是可能一時還沒想到的,它會牽扯到所有跟個人身份有關係的一切事宜。"},{"start":5412.046,"end":5422.347,"text":"有無辦法用單一個窗口來申請然後全部點?這個會跟資料的這個系統的嫁接會有關係比如說你說銀行要接到單一個窗口"},{"start":5423.335,"end":5447.364,"text":"這個可能會有一些困難因為不只是銀行包括剛剛在講我們的地政的系統地政的系統就算他可以接可是他沒有辦法在這個地方重新比如說馬上給你一個這個新的地級的一個藤本或者是房屋的一個所有權的一個藤本因為這個會涉及到人民的財產的這個相關的觀念"},{"start":5448.985,"end":5461.833,"text":"二條及第三條及第四條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":5464.535,"end":5492.237,"text":"申請,然後所有一切的全部通通都馬上改,馬上取得,這個可能需要原民會再進一步跟警官單位來做。我想部長今天很多人提到的就是我們未來都會遇到問題,我們現在可以開始再做準備,不要當法令執行下去之後發現問題更多,這造成我們主任的困擾,這是本席的建議。對,我剛剛在講說希望給我們行政機關一些時間,把這個事情把它做得更完美。"},{"start":5493.057,"end":5513.243,"text":"謝謝部長,謝謝部長的說明。那部長,接下來我們在委員會要見面時間越來越少了。我已經回覆了我的部會要怎麼開講了,有些要請教有些問題。部長本席支持只要是對人民有利的事,對事情對的事情,我們錢要把它開來,把它取下去。"},{"start":5514.503,"end":5528.499,"text":"絕對不要做其他考量只要對民眾好的錢就是要花Just do it所以在這件事底下我們需要追蹤一下一些進度請問部長在去年還在立委選舉的時候部長是不是有到過台東有印象嗎去哪裡台東"},{"start":5533.689,"end":5556.504,"text":"臺東...臺東我一般都是去看災你有沒有印象?鼓勵選舉群本期來提醒一下部長在去年選舉年的時候部長來到臺東也會看到我們的仁愛國小允諾要協助來幫助我們這個學區周邊學童上學的安全要來施作這個環境的改善那本期任何救助是很好的錢就是花在對的地方照顧學童這是對的"},{"start":5558.445,"end":5577.956,"text":"我相信,但是台東不只有那個國小嘛,我相信昨天不是這樣,有的要照顧地方,所以本席是很羨慕有些委員在,像中部委員他們當時在跟國土署來陳情就拿了7000萬來改善這個周邊的學童同學步道,但是不是"},{"start":5579.657,"end":5603.31,"text":"部長,台東是一個窮縣,我們沒有大型企業的機器,我們的稅收較少。部長,為了台東學童的安危,本市要求國土署,是不是可以要求國土署編列額外的補助,針對我們各縣市繳稅平均數之下的縣市,特別像台東縣這樣的縣市,給予更多的經費,來改善校園周邊的交通安全。部長,這樣完成,是不是可以支持我們的國土署的編列?"},{"start":5605.024,"end":5632.077,"text":"委員跟你報告因為這會牽扯到整個遊戲就是說整個制度的規則因為現在對地方的補助是依照財政的一個等級那第二個我跟你報告就是說我們我們的經費基本上是充足的因為四年400億一年就有100億那過去執行大概一年最多50幾億所以我們的預算是充足的那第二個還有一個更重要的是這個必須要縣市政府他提案"},{"start":5632.637,"end":5660.838,"text":"他比較提出來,提出來之後國土署才有辦法去做進一步的審查。那未來針對這些,像臺東縣財運不是這麼聰明,署裡面怎麼可以來協助?就只是未來國土署來協助臺東縣,可不可以請部長來協助?我想協助是沒有問題,不過剛剛我一直提到,這個事情,特別是地方的通學環境等等,其實地方政府非常重要。他如果自己很積極,像我以前基隆市,基隆市的財政是全國第二差的,比臺東還差。"},{"start":5662.479,"end":5685.625,"text":"對,可是我也可以在8年的時候時間裡面把它做很大的改善,這個是一個資源運用調配的一個問題。至於有必要的案件,我們一定會全力來支持。謝謝部長的請教。謝謝部長的回覆。班主席再給我一點點時間,我要再請教一點,跟學童有關係的事情。學校的安全除了學校在保護以外,另外就是一個我們的地方的村里長。"},{"start":5686.795,"end":5707.114,"text":"所以他們除了會當一些志工或是留意我們周邊學校安全以外所以常常我們都會稱他們為土地公、土地婆那當然他們為這個國家付出我們值得來表揚他們也要肯定他們所以居民部長準備要發紅包給我們全國的村里長"},{"start":5708.015,"end":5732.576,"text":"年終獎金1.5個月,是這件事情?不是我要發,其實這個是我們從去年的時候就已經開始在做討論,那是考慮到我們的村里長他對於薪水,我們是討論甚至到要不要發薪水的這個問題,但是意見不一,所以我們有共識就是村里長他的一個事務補助費,"},{"start":5733.817,"end":5734.518,"text":"乘以1.5個月來當成這個年終的一個慰勞金"},{"start":5749.369,"end":5773.515,"text":"這一個案子現在行政院今天的院會正在討論那討論完之後因為他必須要修法會送到大院來做審議那今年來得及完成法律的一個程序的話應該年終的慰勞金應該在明年的時候是有機會可以發放先謝謝部長不過部長我們是要問到縣市面的這條行事中央處理還是地方處理地方政府編列預算"},{"start":5775.097,"end":5794.634,"text":"不可以這樣啦,像台東縣的預算那麼...你知道我們台東縣光是這樣發...今天我抱歉齁,這個時間已經到了,我跟您說明跟報告一下,下下個禮拜,召委就會排這個地方制度法,好不好?謝謝主席但是現在我們很樂於見到行政院有它的版本"},{"start":5795.774,"end":5817.706,"text":"最開始是我的版本然後我本來就要排了但是聽到我們的部長還有院長好像都樂觀其成但是最重要的就是你剛才提到的問題這個財政到底是由地方支出還是中央支出還是按照統籌分配款裡面再怎麼樣這個就是我們下個禮拜要討論的部分謝謝趙偉那個趙偉我10秒鐘補充一下因為今天談到援助民主的事情"},{"start":5824.769,"end":5850.381,"text":"剛剛提到的村里長還有包括民意代表部分我們是額外加10%所以原住民族的這個就是說他在原鄉的直轄市議員或者是非直轄市議員的這個鄉鎮村區等等他的這個事務費的一個補助我們是額外加10%就是因為他的幅員廣闊交通不便這部分我沒有考慮進來"},{"start":5851.172,"end":5862.461,"text":"好謝謝部長今天先在提前說明我們下下禮拜再見好謝謝謝謝部長謝謝部主委謝謝主席謝謝菅兵委員謝謝繼續我們請蔓玉珍委員來質詢謝謝謝謝主席有請部長有請林部長謝謝"},{"start":5881.38,"end":5902.779,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具、「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":5908.144,"end":5925.511,"text":"一收屋就是持交屋的糾紛不斷一堆一收屋無法完工建商也落跑了所以爛泥屋的案件內政部是否有掌握現行各大小的建商營業行行保障消費者的權益"},{"start":5927.735,"end":5945.744,"text":"姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":5946.844,"end":5973.079,"text":"市場上基本上北中南都還算穩定而且市況都還算不錯去年最主要是因為在年初的時候平均地權條例上路那中南部有一些中小型的建商他們也有感受到壓力不過在下半年的時候有新的一些措施推出所以並沒有現在並沒有聽到有這樣子的一個聲音基本上整個市場算是穩定而且是"},{"start":5973.739,"end":5989.626,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〉案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〉案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〉案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〉案。七、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〉案。"},{"start":6002.791,"end":6006.033,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〉案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具"},{"start":6017.399,"end":6035.108,"text":"這個可以從這個消費者的一個權益保障的一個措施來做處理對但是就是因為一收屋在發燒還有就是要動工都是地方政府在管所以我們就看到說如果是說我們在中央是不是像說有一個統籌"},{"start":6036.469,"end":6045.293,"text":"就像我們的新北市有這個一收屋的施工進度查詢相關的平台的話這樣子的話才會說公告相關的建築還有營造營造業的管理還有應用這樣讓消費者才會知道說那個施工的進度因為這樣子他們求助無門的話就"},{"start":6061.345,"end":6064.489,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":6080.86,"end":6095.738,"text":"這是地方政府該做的事情對但是不是每個地方政府都有目前就是看到新北市其他縣市是沒有的所以我們希望說是不是我們中央是不是要求或者是統一有一個這樣子的"},{"start":6096.294,"end":6110.862,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。七、審查委員鄭"},{"start":6125.51,"end":6129.394,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6138.092,"end":6164.211,"text":"日期項目審核的進度等等建造的資訊。」我瞭解的是建商他們應該是線上其實都可以查得到建造到底審到什麼程度這個是查得到的是說我們是在每一個縣市政府都有這樣子像我們新北市的話是說我們民眾比較便民比較查得到希望我們中央如果是可以的話就是這個措施或者這樣平台"},{"start":6164.69,"end":6177.138,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":6192.427,"end":6198.421,"text":"第2次全體委員會第1次全體委員會第2次全體委員會第2次全體委員會第2次全體委員會第2次全體委員會第2次全體委員會第2次全體委員會第2次全體委員會第2次全體委員會第2次全體委員會第2次全體委員會第2次全體委員會"},{"start":6203.114,"end":6207.237,"text":"姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具"},{"start":6222.828,"end":6248.684,"text":"只有56.5和一般生就是差距33.6個百分點顯示原住民的高等教育就支援獲得上跟一般的比較差有差距請教一下如何鼓勵和支持更多的原住民族進入高等教育的階段學習還有就是廣大高教的公共測試"},{"start":6250.503,"end":6268.676,"text":"姓名條例第三條及第二條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":6272.219,"end":6294.375,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":6297.097,"end":6315.195,"text":"是的,因為我們是每一個人都說我們原住民有很多補助,但是有很多原住民的朋友說懂的人就有申請到,不懂的人就申請不到了,就是照顧懂的人,因為我在靜怡大學有很多同學都是原住民,"},{"start":6315.615,"end":6318.418,"text":"所以希望說我們我們研民會這邊的話就是把這個資訊還有在偏鄉的要如何就是讓大家了解怎麼去申請不要說我們我們就預算很多讓補助我們的原住民讓我們原住民的朋友"},{"start":6332.754,"end":6361.036,"text":"他們想要去讀書沒有的話為什麼的比例差那麼多是因為我們宣傳不夠或者輔導不夠讓大家不知道說我們是可以去有這樣子的申請是的我想我們在很多的大專業校裡面都有設置原住民主教育資源中心那教育資源中心都會協助我們原住民學生相關的權利包括不管是學業上的或是他在社會層面上那至於委員提到可能宣導不足的部分我們會持續結合地方政府做宣導"},{"start":6361.516,"end":6367.923,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6381.758,"end":6388.724,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":6406.92,"end":6421.246,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具、「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具、「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":6423.727,"end":6436.593,"text":"三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":6451.909,"end":6470.534,"text":"親水子名字隨兒子及長子結婚的文化習俗改名。所以在這個地方這個部分應該也是要放寬給原住民他們有多重的選擇。請部長來做說明一下好不好。"},{"start":6474.912,"end":6494.784,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":6504.508,"end":6524.794,"text":"連兒子結婚我還聽原住民他們所講的因為改名的次數真的會非常多所以也不要說把他綁住是是是好那我們副主委先請回好了好副主委好那我請部長部長"},{"start":6527.979,"end":6540.637,"text":"我們過去一些公共工程他們遇到的問題部長因為我們也有做過去爆發他們種機械、吊車"},{"start":6542.52,"end":6556.992,"text":"第二條及第三條及第四條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":6557.915,"end":6575.324,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":6577.757,"end":6590.208,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":6602.884,"end":6630.721,"text":"我之前我自己也有親自召開過會議那他有分成幾個部分第一個是現在在有業者擔心在國土計劃法實施之後那現況使用的這些地方會不會受到影響那答案是基本上是不會的但是也的確像你剛剛所提到的我們的這些這些建築機具的這些業者他需要一個能夠"},{"start":6631.661,"end":6651.312,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":6653.093,"end":6671.04,"text":"但是我印象應該記得有一到兩個頁別他是有牌照那有牌照就是交通部監管監理單位的這個管轄的一個範圍那這部分是不是要納入剛剛在提到的我們內政部正在研議的"},{"start":6672.821,"end":6688.973,"text":"建築的重機械所可以臨時停放的這些場所。現在我們請工會回去他們去把這些需要這些不同的業別的意見再重新收攏那我們會內政部會再進一步跟工會召開會議"},{"start":6689.633,"end":6709.26,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具、「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":6717.33,"end":6729.694,"text":"所以我們的立場跟態度是正面的,應該要給這些業者一個合法可以擬放擬具的一個空間跟場所。因為你說中藝社這個業者是全國性,全國真的沒有一個地方是有個法規,法規來輔導。"},{"start":6738.897,"end":6755.849,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":6763.107,"end":6768.888,"text":"非常謝謝吳啓明召委的質詢謝謝部長謝謝繼續我們請劉徐廷委員質詢謝謝主席部長和副政司長有請有請部長跟代理副政司長謝謝委員好"},{"start":6792.796,"end":6811.091,"text":"部長早安,這個有關於本今天的會議討論姓名條例的修法,那麼針對原住民單列傳統姓名或名字,因為有些原住民是沒有姓氏的概念的,這個內政部表示除了法律用字上代斟酌之外,其餘部分予以尊重,應該是沒有什麼爭議性,那我們希望盡快來做通過。"},{"start":6812.252,"end":6828.842,"text":"修法的重點在於確認原住民可以用原住民的文字目前是用羅馬拼音的方式來呈現單列所謂的傳統姓名或名字也就是說不強制就一定要漢字跟這個傳統姓名一起的一個方式那按照憲法條文第10條憲法法庭的判決意旨"},{"start":6830.203,"end":6853.361,"text":"傳統姓名是原住民族彰顯族群認同的特別權利那麼原住民語言發展法也明定原住民族語言現在是我們的國家語言數學系統羅馬拼音是原住民族的文字所以這個單列羅馬拼音為傳統姓名對於原民的姓名權跟人格權以及國家語言平等權具有高度的相關性而且有絕對的這個正當性那麼"},{"start":6855.55,"end":6876.171,"text":"我們在此要花一點點時間向很多倡議者甚至用過打官司的方式來爭取這個姓名條例的通過我們在此對他們致敬有非常多那其實我有一點點小遺憾因為這個羅馬拼音的部分我沒有辦法精準的來發音這也跟我們待會的題目有關但不管怎麼樣我們把它列出來像這些這個"},{"start":6878.033,"end":6892.66,"text":"單列傳統姓名的原住民朋友致敬,他們用法律的方式爭取自己的權益,才有了今天姓名條例的修正。好,那問題來了,這個修法過後勢必有更多的原住民朋友會用羅馬拼音來單列他的這個姓名,那部長這個怎麼來念?"},{"start":6895.387,"end":6920.773,"text":"委員跟你報告這個就是我剛剛也有回答其他委員這個我們大家必須一起共同的來學習所以未來包括在行政系統裡面或者是包括在我們所有的大社會的平台裡面這個其實我覺得這個是非常重要的一步因為這個對於促進族群之間的彼此認識跟了解包括文化跟習俗有非常正面的一個這個"},{"start":6922.394,"end":6926.203,"text":"這位後面的這個救援已經出現了來我們請圓明會副主委"},{"start":6927.611,"end":6956.768,"text":"這就是學習的機會啦本席也要學習一下要不然我也唸不清楚不太好意思謝謝委員這是我的名字部長搞了方案搞了方案好謝謝副主委喔這個就是我今天要提這個質詢的蠻重要的一個問題今天我想修法應該會很順利來通過但我希望說內政部就不要為得不足也就是說修法通過之後我們應該也有一點點推廣的義務讓更多的一般人我想要去了解想要去學習想要精準的發音的時候能有一個好的平台"},{"start":6957.208,"end":6965.062,"text":"那以部長、副政司長目前的了解,如果我要精準的,我現在只能看到文字,我想要精準的讀出他的發音的時候,我應該上哪裡去查詢呢?"},{"start":6966.77,"end":6988.097,"text":"委員我跟您報告現在我們原民會他們第一個當然有原住民的書寫系統第二個是他們也針對這些名稱或者說包括這個怎麼樣念或者因為有不同的族語有16族那他們有一個比如說這個比如說點進去會有語音會有聲音出來現在這個平台位置在哪裡這個請原民會來解說明一下"},{"start":6991.398,"end":7010.526,"text":"各委員報告其實現在我們有一個主委的平台叫做主委一樂園主委一樂園這部分是有那不過我們在今年也會跟研議會來推動這個原住民族人名譜那我們這個名譜就是有原住民族的各樣的名字那包括我們現在請我們的語推組織能夠來錄音像剛剛我念就是讓這個音標準的音可以錄進去"},{"start":7016.328,"end":7030.399,"text":"未來我們也會建置這個原住民傳統姓名的平臺讓大社會可以在這個平臺上去點選有姓名條例通過之後就把這個精準發音的這個平臺建立起來而且它要有一定的義達性它不要再藏在"},{"start":7031.46,"end":7056.431,"text":"官方網站的某一個角落一般人找不到那比較可惜這應該被彰顯這是本席的想法本席的名字叫劉許廷中間常常被他唸錯所以我很多時候可以感同身受所以說這部分我們希望內政部就是把這個政策把它貫徹完畢好謝謝副主委最後一點點時間這個我要借今天剛好在討論姓名難不免也要跟互證有一點關係所以這件事情我要請互證司長來做一下回答"},{"start":7057.812,"end":7065.649,"text":"本期過去都有發現你們都會出這個報告然後還做這個國人的姓名統計這個國人諜制的排行榜冠軍是誰?司長"},{"start":7071.475,"end":7095.638,"text":"我們是今年有特別針對疊字做一個統計啦那每年以前是每兩年做一次的那個姓名統計分析這個統計當然很有意思啦也很有趣冰冰嘛我記得男生第一名排名是叫冰冰但看到這個事情本席從基層出生啦我不免有一點點這個為副政司捏一把冷汗為什麼呢因為本席的選區歸山啦是一個標準的生活圈非常分散的地方"},{"start":7096.138,"end":7116.319,"text":"所以我們很多不同的生活圈其實中間要這個開車週車勞頓15分鐘20分鐘的可能性都有所以大家要到龜山戶政事務所去辦公的時候其實非常麻煩的一件事所以本期在做議員的時候很多人希望說我們不同的生活圈可以有越來越多的戶政變名窗口可是戶政變名窗口在推動的時候我們在地方聽到了反應第二叫戶政基層人力不足"},{"start":7117.02,"end":7144.398,"text":"二、設備不足。我現在林口台地上有很多新簽入的我為了要辦簽入要拿身份證簽戶籍我要跑到山下的護證事務所我上面要開窗口他說即便有開窗口他因為沒有設備所以沒有辦法印發身份證所以他其實窗口的這個服務的效應是打了很大的折扣的我看到護證中央你有這個人力有這個資源這個時間去調查名字疊字誰最多可是地方的這些問題沒有被突兀我覺得是有點可惜的"},{"start":7144.878,"end":7170.456,"text":"是不是請內政部做一下盤點跟檢討就是說地方的互證的資源我們怎麼樣從中間來給予多一點的這個資源讓地方互證的辨明可以更完善委員我跟您報告不是我們互證私人很多是因為這個其實從我們的電腦系統裡面就可以去做一些調查跟分析那第二個互證系統在地方的話是屬於地方政府的一個權責要設幾個互證事務所這個縣市政府自己就可以決定"},{"start":7171.156,"end":7185.954,"text":"對他現在是有窗口但相對來講是人力那我覺得人力相對來講好調度因為現在資訊化的時代很多東西可以從資訊化的界面去整合但設備的部分這我們希望中央可以提供一定的資源設備應該是沒有問題人力的部分縣市政府自己可以去調配"},{"start":7186.254,"end":7187.515,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具"},{"start":7209.291,"end":7218.736,"text":"非常謝謝有請委員的質詢謝謝部長謝謝我們繼續請鄭天財委員鄭天財委員您的名字是Sra Kacaw對吧好我們請Sra Kacaw委員主席各位委員有請部長還有股仲副主委有請部長還有股仲副主委謝謝"},{"start":7239.97,"end":7267.966,"text":"委員好。我們在去年針對這個姓名條例112年臺北高等行政法院的判決這個判決非常非常的重要而之所以可以被判決原住民會勝訴就是因為前面的第一個姓名條例"},{"start":7270.219,"end":7298.463,"text":"我在當公務員的時候我還是處長的時候就協調就拜託甚至拜託立法委員把這個傳統名字可以用羅馬拼音這是第一步這我當處長的時候然後我當立委之後原住民族語言發展法我堅持第一條的第一計劃原住民族的語言是"},{"start":7299.47,"end":7326.299,"text":"國家的語言。」這個判決基本上很重要的就是原住民族的語言是國家的語言這個臺北高等行政法院的判決或者是今年的臺北市的相關的判決所以我講這個部分也是講給股仲講給我們的公務人員對的"},{"start":7330.158,"end":7355.621,"text":"應該的就要堅持有了這個判決之後部長當時我就拜託部長就透過解釋對不對透過解釋但是沒有解釋因為解釋很多案例後來你們解釋那個亞美族可以不受一次的限制對不對"},{"start":7357.147,"end":7384.393,"text":"已經有了判決可以透過解釋因為這個也是一個立法的技術原住民族基本法30條本來只有一項我們增加我們在立法院原住民的立委給他增加了第二項可以透過解釋依原住民族基本法的原則去解釋好現在"},{"start":7388.504,"end":7413.441,"text":"這個完了之後也這麼久了113年1月11號臺北高等行政法院又做了判決所以這個部分對政府機關來講可以做的應該趕快做所以這樣的一個情形之下所以今天審查要謝謝召委安排來審查希望"},{"start":7414.68,"end":7443.008,"text":"內政部及相關部會給予最大的支持。」這裡面有一些到底要用這個臺灣原住民族還是臺灣原住民這個部分因為臺灣原住民族才是一個正式的我們就把它完整性把它納入進去那傳統名字傳統姓名事實上"},{"start":7445.396,"end":7467.738,"text":"我們原住民就是名字而已,原住民身份法就是用名字。原住民身份法我也是當處長的時候提出來的。當初在行政院開會的時候到底要用姓名還是名字,我堅持用名字。"},{"start":7469.005,"end":7492.273,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":7499.7,"end":7523.077,"text":"所以不是只有針對原住民所以為什麼姓名的條例一開始原來的條文也要用羅馬拼音是考慮到除了原住民之外還有其他的少數民族所以我們兩個可以都一起放不排斥所以這個部分也要跟"},{"start":7524.264,"end":7548.36,"text":"部長還有副政司,你們在考量這些我們所提的版本的文字或是它用詞,我們都有,我啦,最起碼我啦,我都有去做相關的考量。部長,因為你們今天的報告裡面有一些意見,可以表達一下嗎?"},{"start":7550.116,"end":7577.99,"text":"委員基本上這個我們幾個提案我們其實基本上都是尊重然後也支持相關的一個提案不過你剛剛特別提到的有關於臺灣原住民修正為臺灣原住民族的部分那我們這部分我們也是尊重跟支持那另外是你有提到包括姓名姓氏跟這個姓名姓氏及名字的部分那因為這個姓名條例它是一個比較"},{"start":7578.67,"end":7594.563,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7602.113,"end":7625.451,"text":"我們已經習慣姓名就是姓跟名在一起了所以為什麼原住民身份法就不寫姓名就是寫傳統名字有他的那個根據的所以我們在主條的時候可以再做討論是謝謝謝謝非常謝謝鄭天財委員長期來對原住民法律案的那個努力非常謝謝你謝謝"},{"start":7627.777,"end":7650.185,"text":"順便跟大家說明一下,高金素梅能夠回復原住民及泰雅族的身份,再次謝謝鄭天財委員當時在座公務人員的時候提醒了我們的早委,提醒了我們的主委,所以高金素梅得以回復泰雅族的身份,謝謝你。我們一直在往這一條路努力邁進,謝謝。我們繼續請丁學忠委員來質詢。"},{"start":7660.171,"end":7664.341,"text":"感謝主席,各位委員同仁,我請部長。有請部長"},{"start":7671.983,"end":7674.544,"text":"在去年,我們有發生一場火災,損失了四位消防人員。當時他們就組織起來,要求政府有三個訴求,顧職安、要公安組、公會。"},{"start":7693.129,"end":7708.6,"text":"二、審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":7714.143,"end":7728.708,"text":"要為提升他們的團體權益,我們要來逐步增加團體協會的權利,增加提高消防員的安全保障這些要求。目前的進度是怎樣?"},{"start":7733.636,"end":7754.903,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":7760.52,"end":7780.311,"text":"團體的一個組成,這一部分也已經做了處理,以上簡單跟你做說明。對,消防員他雖然是公務人員,他其實他跟一般的公務人員不同,一般的公務人員加這個反攻器,但是他們有工,他們處理就是用姓名來保護我們。"},{"start":7781.371,"end":7794.395,"text":"三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〉案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〉案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〉案。七、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〉案。八、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〉案。"},{"start":7811.261,"end":7828.11,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「"},{"start":7838.675,"end":7851.004,"text":"的狀況下執行情務發生的一些危險可以除罪化。」這也是他們也在期待說我們政府可以重視這個問題。是。對啊齁。啊,剛才齁,我剛好突然說是啦,也聽到我們那個中華的代表會客廳來給我在建議啦,說我們現在有"},{"start":7864.914,"end":7873.016,"text":"針對里長的這個年終慰問金有編列這個預算。感謝說照顧到地方里長,但是代表行議員,我們現在針對議員的這個事務費,我們認為議員的過分是九千提供兩萬,"},{"start":7886.559,"end":7891.583,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例第二條及第〉二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":7912.098,"end":7937.827,"text":"針對好幾個部分,包括直轄市的議員,非直轄市議員,另外村里長,另外就是還有包括鄉鎮市區民代表的部分。你剛才提到應該是衛民服務費,不是補助費,它是衛民服務費。我們的版本原本他們現行是大概每個月3000元,那我們是著以調升,現在我們的版本是調高到5000元。"},{"start":7938.607,"end":7954.297,"text":"三、審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":7963.844,"end":7987.819,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":7991.441,"end":8008.386,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第四條及第五條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及第十條及"},{"start":8009.406,"end":8016.351,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例第二條及第〉二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具"},{"start":8031.001,"end":8039.805,"text":"二、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":8061.827,"end":8078.824,"text":"部長好副主委好但是我還是要講一下我的族語因為我們萬山是兵為羽族這個語言很少人會講藉著立法院的質詢台我希望把這個聲音能夠讓大家聽到"},{"start":8081.667,"end":8101.016,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":8104.718,"end":8123.501,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第二條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":8124.722,"end":8148.449,"text":"我那個時候就是提到原住民要的反歧視法或族群平等法是不是可以請你來支持你當時非常肯定的說今年2024年院版一定會拿出來所以我在這邊非常感謝那我也要讓您了解關於我們的單列族與姓名我過去在內政委員會歷經11次這個主題的一個質詢"},{"start":8153.951,"end":8177.9,"text":"那麼一直到去年選舉期間大家都很忙那個時候是我們的次長那我還是質詢這個問題當時說要一步一步設法把它完成那我是說不要一步一步啦後來12月11號去年12月11號是您來備詢那您很肯定的說同意支持"},{"start":8178.9,"end":8190.45,"text":"只是很可惜,到下午的審查的時候,怎麼又變成沒成功,內政部原民會沒有予以同意。」所以我今天才說非常感謝趙偉今天又再次排審。那過去我每次問的時候大概是兩個問題。第一個問題就是老師回答說,哎呀羅馬拼音國人認識不足啦。那我們說都已經在雙語化,我們的孩子從國小就學英文。"},{"start":8205.382,"end":8211.728,"text":"第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":8221.497,"end":8240.843,"text":"所以今天又來到這裡2024年5月請問部長請問人民會副主委我們又再度提出這樣的一個排審的版本那審查的時候部長您會支持嗎我剛剛已經一再的說明也在我們的書面報告裡面也提到"},{"start":8241.543,"end":8262.892,"text":"我們支持而且贊成這樣子的一個主張因為我個人也一直強調其實這是一個讓族群之間能夠平等然後大家可以更進一步彼此認識瞭解因為這樣子才可以消除一切的歧視或者是說消除一切的誤解"},{"start":8263.972,"end":8278.227,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":8287.456,"end":8303.031,"text":"二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":8309.917,"end":8328.754,"text":"其實16個族群其實他被命名的方式被改的方式都不一樣那以我自己部落來講我的祖父他們家有6個兄弟姊妹被冠上6個不同的姓所以這個就是我講的我們就失去了我們的族譜"},{"start":8329.835,"end":8334.004,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具、「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具"},{"start":8341.23,"end":8347.475,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具、「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":8360.606,"end":8388.501,"text":"11個字的議員。」所以這個部分我們很高興今天聽到我們終於可以回復我們單列族名那在這個過程當中我覺得最重要的是因為國家語言發展法通過之後已經肯認我們的原住民族文字所以我們有權利做這樣的一個要求但是我這個地方還是要提醒一件事我要提醒什麼呢部長"},{"start":8390.011,"end":8397.849,"text":"更名跟回覆是一樣的事情嗎?我要回覆我的姓名跟我改名是一樣的事情嗎?"},{"start":8400.777,"end":8420.231,"text":"這個當然是不一樣對那很好因為以我們原名會有一個處長叫羅文明那這是他的漢名漢字那他改名叫賀路基佑但是呢他又再改了一次假設叫羅賀路基佑然後賀路基佑"},{"start":8422.012,"end":8438.73,"text":"現在我們通過了之後如果按照我們現在的姓名條例現行條文第一條第二項是均以一次為限所以我在這邊要請教部長跟副主委就是說單列族名是否視為回復傳統姓名那您剛才已經說不一樣"},{"start":8439.531,"end":8444.654,"text":"第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八"},{"start":8460.003,"end":8464.185,"text":"在更名,所以我在這個地方就是特別談我有做修正動議就是希望能夠幫助他們免於這樣因為連我們的之前處理亞美族達物族他都已經可以申請改名無次數限制了所以這個部分我要特別做一個提醒那最後一個主席再給我問一個問題因為我剛剛有講啦過去我有提醒"},{"start":8486.457,"end":8494.322,"text":"就是內政部也回覆我了說會編列經費去處理這些資訊中心的護證師的移民署的地政司整個系統那麼就是當時是說要請原民會編啦已經過了兩年我想問原民會你們經費編列跟辦理的情形然後也要問內政部修法之後各部會小管登記文件能不能夠同時的搭配上路"},{"start":8515.791,"end":8528.978,"text":"委員你剛剛是不是回到你剛剛簡報的前面的那一張圖對我想你提到的在前面在前面在前面就是剛剛第一個那個姓名OK剛剛那個下一頁"},{"start":8531.2,"end":8534.743,"text":"委員提到單列族名是否可以視為回復傳統姓名?是否還能登記改名?是否還能登記改名?"},{"start":8557.004,"end":8580.121,"text":"在執行面上我們內政部所轄管的部分我們已經做了相關的一個行政的一個討論所以在互譯證的部分我們這個是欄位各方面我們已經做了準備沒有問題但是這個牽扯到的這個面向可能還不只是包括身份證或者說包括戶證、地證、移民的這些部分它可能還會包括像外交部還有交通部的駕照"},{"start":8580.922,"end":8581.984,"text":"二、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":8591.889,"end":8618.002,"text":"其他的部會可能沒有,我們的部分是把這個軟硬體做了一些改善,但這個需要時間再進一步跟各部會、跨部會的一個協調。這個到時候我也會跟院來做報告。謝謝部長。副主委,兩年了。我想這個部分有關於系統更改需求的經費,我們在110年8月、111年8月有召開各部會的協商。那大概整體中央部會所需的經費大概兩億一千多萬。"},{"start":8618.782,"end":8635.471,"text":"其中內政部就大概跟部長講大概有1億多所以其他部會都即使經費都蠻少所以我們是協調是由各部會針對這個系統我們是希望同步上路啊就是修法通過之後我們希望同步上路我想在這個地方特別再一次謝謝昭緯也謝謝部長謝謝袁銘慧謝謝好 謝謝災災委員的這個質詢謝謝部長謝謝股東副主委待會我有一些附帶決議也希望他們能夠來解決處理這個事情"},{"start":8647.518,"end":8667.675,"text":"第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八"},{"start":8668.806,"end":8694.1,"text":"登記發言的委員除了不在場者之外,其餘都已經發言完畢,尋答結束。委員徐欣盈、張志倫所提的書面質詢列入記錄刊登公報。書面質詢和未及答覆的部分,請相關單位在一週之內以書面答覆並複製本會。報告委員會,我們現在就進行法案的審查,請宣讀討論事項,所有版本還有條文,或者是修正動議還有附帶決議,請一併宣讀,宣讀完畢之後我們再進行協商。"},{"start":8700.424,"end":8722.199,"text":"第一條委員高金素梅等24人提案。第二項前段之臺灣原住民文字修正為臺灣原住民族,增訂第三項,前項臺灣原住民傳統姓名之文化灌輸其調查確認內涵意義、運鏡基準審核程序及其他應遵行事項之辦法,由中央原住民族主管機關定之。原第三四五項分別一列為第四五六項,其餘同線性條文。"},{"start":8723.32,"end":8740.283,"text":"為鄭天財等21人提案,替上修正為臺灣原住民族及其他少數民族之姓名登記,以其文化慣俗為之,其以依漢人姓名登記者得申請回覆其傳統名字或姓名,回覆傳統名字或姓名者得申請回覆原有漢人姓名但均以一次違憲,其與同性行條文。"},{"start":8741.043,"end":8770.023,"text":"第二條委員高金素梅等24人提案。第一項後段增訂但原住民依其文化慣俗登記傳統姓名者,得使用原住民族文字,其餘同線型條文。委員鄭天財等21人提案。增訂第三項,臺灣原住民族之傳統名字得使用羅馬拼音登記不受前兩項規定之限制,其餘同線型條文。委員伍麗華等16人提案。增訂第三項,臺灣原住民之傳統姓名得使用羅馬拼音或原住民族文字登記不受前二項之限制,其餘同線型條文。"},{"start":8770.903,"end":8787.598,"text":"第四條委員高金素梅等24人提案。第一項修正為臺灣原住民及其他少數民族之中文傳統姓名或漢人姓名均得以原住民族文字單列或並列登記,不受第一條第一項規定之限制,其餘同現行條文。委員鄭天財等21人提案。"},{"start":8787.998,"end":8815.92,"text":"第一項修正為臺灣原住民族及其他少數民族之中文傳統名字和姓名或漢人姓名均得以傳統名字之羅馬拼音並列登記不受第一條第一項規定之限制其餘同現行條文。委員伍麗華等16人提案第一項修正為臺灣原住民及其他少數民族之中文傳統姓名或漢人姓名均得以傳統姓名之羅馬拼音或原住民族文字並列登記不受第一條第一項規定之限制其餘同現行條文。"},{"start":8816.7,"end":8837.547,"text":"第八條委員高金素梅等24人提案將第一項第三款致臺灣原住民文字修正為臺灣原住民族其餘同線型條文委員鄭天財等21人提案同委員高金素梅等24人提案第九條委員鄭天財等21人提案增訂第一項第七款七、臺灣原住民族基於文化慣俗其餘同線型條文"},{"start":8839.409,"end":8861.685,"text":"附帶決議一,為提升原住民族文化認同有助於傳承各族之命名文化與制度,亦符合原住民族人長期之期待,故修正《姓名條例》有關原住民族文字姓名登記制度,為達成上開目的,必領原住民未來使用原住民族文字登記姓名。請內政部於《姓名條例》修正通過後一個月內,邀集相關部會研議下列事項。"},{"start":8862.405,"end":8880.713,"text":"並於前開法案通過三個月內提出執行方案的書面報告,送交立法院內政委員會。一、各機關姓名等系統同步更新。二、經互證系統等記傳統姓名後,互譯證系統同步勾結各機關姓名系統並更正姓名的機制。提案人委員高金素梅等10人。"},{"start":8881.853,"end":8909.118,"text":"福袋決議二,原住民族傳統姓名的制度存在著傳承原住民族各族文化之重要任務。為達成上開任務,請原住民族委員會應與姓名條例修正通過6個月內辦理完成之事項,如列如下。一、原住民族各族傳統姓名跟名字的調查確認與彙整。二、原住民族傳統名字的認定基準與機制。三、前開項目的指引手冊等相關資料。四、請人民會會同內政部研議辦理的單一窗口。"},{"start":8909.638,"end":8930.994,"text":"免徵歸非的規劃方案。」提案人委員高金素梅等10人。附帶決議三、本次《姓名條例修正》通過後,請原住民族委員會於兩週內提出《依應原住民身份法》第三條修正後,產生傳統名字、命名爭議的具體改善方案。提案人委員高金素梅等3人。"},{"start":8934.127,"end":8946.996,"text":"二、姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":8949.438,"end":8952.6,"text":"兩個修正動議還是一個有一個修正動議跟附帶決議嗎是不是還是兩個修正動議三個我們今天好我們也也也也也那個宣讀一下修正動議"},{"start":8980.166,"end":9002.792,"text":"修正動議一第二項修正為第一條第二項修正為臺灣原住民族及其他少數民族之傳統姓名以其文化冠俗為之。請以一漢人姓名登記者得申請回復傳統姓名回復傳統姓名者得申請回復原有漢人姓名但均以三次違憲提案人王美惠委員等4人修正動議二"},{"start":9011.738,"end":9030.334,"text":"第一條增訂第三項前向臺灣原住民族及其他少數民族之出生登記及出社戶及登記以傳統姓名登記者得申請變更為漢人姓名,變更為漢人姓名者得申請回復傳統姓名,但均以一次違憲。第九條"},{"start":9033.157,"end":9060.947,"text":"增訂第7款,臺灣原住民已登記中文傳統姓名或中文傳統姓名已並列登記原住民族文字者,首次改名單列原住民族文字。提案人委員王美惠等4人。好,謝謝。我們現在就開始來協商。我們來看一下第一條。"},{"start":9064.574,"end":9068.926,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9084.087,"end":9109.152,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八"},{"start":9115.06,"end":9140.732,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具、「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":9155.623,"end":9178.982,"text":"二、姓名條例第三條及第四條及第四條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八"},{"start":9184.445,"end":9200.759,"text":"二、姓名條例第三條及第四條及第四條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八"},{"start":9210.469,"end":9220.057,"text":"全體委員會第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會"},{"start":9226.63,"end":9251.149,"text":"二、姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八"},{"start":9264.48,"end":9293.887,"text":"三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具、「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":9294.087,"end":9323.134,"text":"第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":9328.507,"end":9333.622,"text":"全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第16次全體委員會"},{"start":9340.286,"end":9364.472,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahoecahe等16人擬具、「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八"},{"start":9371.92,"end":9392.65,"text":"二、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具、「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":9393.473,"end":9417.272,"text":"二、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":9417.952,"end":9438.642,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第二條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":9441.425,"end":9461.437,"text":"第1會期內政委員會第1會期內政委員會第2會期內政委員會第3會期內政委員會及第4會期內政委員會及第5會期內政委員會及第6會期內政委員會及第7會期內政委員會及第8會期內政委員會及第8會期內政委員會及第9會期內政委員會及第10會期內政委員會及第10會期內政委員會及第11會期內政委員會及第11會期內政委員會及第12會期內政委員會及第12會期內政委員會及第13會期內政委員會及第13會期內政委員會及第14會期內政委員會及第14會期內政委員會及第15會期內政委員會及第16會期內政委"},{"start":9467.774,"end":9484.487,"text":"二、審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具、「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":9486.673,"end":9510.787,"text":"姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員�"},{"start":9511.407,"end":9515.229,"text":"二、審查委員王美惠委員"},{"start":9540.723,"end":9543.77,"text":"黃婕委員也有提第一條的修正動議。"},{"start":9550.216,"end":9569.173,"text":"好 我們請伍麗華委員好 謝謝這個第一條的部分其實剛才在質詢當中我也有去確認部長也有給予明確的回覆就是回覆傳統姓名包含申請單列族名"},{"start":9570.114,"end":9596.949,"text":"那麼剛才的回覆有更積極我的版本原本是寫說均以三次為限因為考量到姓名橫屏啦跟一般的那個國民的一個權利那但是剛才部長的回覆是有提到因為我們舉亞美族的例子齁不限次數那部長是有提到說不限次數所以我大概就是做這樣的一個說明然後看看大家的意見謝謝"},{"start":9599.343,"end":9619.79,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及"},{"start":9620.851,"end":9624.514,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具"},{"start":9639.698,"end":9652.989,"text":"傳統名字改為漢人姓名漢人姓名改為傳統名字是針對這個部分如果要講亞美族的話就是要放在第8條我同意鄭天財委員的說明等一下黃婕委員有舉手我們請黃婕委員謝謝"},{"start":9658.462,"end":9673.161,"text":"好謝謝那我講一下我們這個修正動議其實是因應剛剛巧惠委員他質詢的時候有提到說如果他出生的時候他是用原住民族或是其他少數民族的出生登記或者是出社的戶籍登記"},{"start":9674.162,"end":9692.775,"text":"一開始是這樣但是沒有一個方式是他後來想要申請變更為漢人姓名的話要怎麼處理所以我希望在這邊加一條加一項說前向臺灣原住民族及其他少數民族之出生登記及出社戶籍登記以傳統姓名登記者得申請變更為漢人姓名變更為漢人姓名者得申請回復傳統姓名但均以一次違憲這樣子的"},{"start":9704.482,"end":9715.448,"text":"一項才可以更完整地保障他們的姓名權。那如果有需要的話也可以請互證單位來做補充說明這樣的可行性。謝謝。好,謝謝我們再請伍麗華委員。好,謝謝各位。那個我是要回應剛才鄭天財委員所說的放在第9條後我有看過我同意"},{"start":9724.873,"end":9750.25,"text":"但是我只是要強調因為兩碼子是因為我第一條這邊只是說要去做一個回復姓名跟更名改名是不同的兩件事那至於那個次數的部分其實第九條我覺得也OK那因為原來這個地方我是寫說三次就是就是把原來的一次寫成三次所以我都可以謝謝"},{"start":9751.631,"end":9756.133,"text":"好 謝謝伍麗華的補充 順便再請美會委員主席 謝謝 剛才有的說的是我是說以前我們有寫說軍委三次違憲 但我是覺得你說的有限制"},{"start":9769.48,"end":9790.787,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例第二條及第〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、"},{"start":9799.47,"end":9823.284,"text":"那個是我們傳統名字的部分,是不是請那個內政部這個部長你來補充說明一下。對,我們現行法條裡面的第二項都是以一次為限。我知道我知道我知道。鄭天財委員跟我的版本其實都是按照現行條文啊。"},{"start":9824.164,"end":9846.312,"text":"修正條文的部分有提,所以有三次。所以是不是請司長來再說明一下。好,謝謝。剛剛提到的是這個第9條的部分,這個是增訂。現在談的是第一條,第二款均以一次違憲。第一條這邊是以三次,一次違憲。現行條文是以一次違憲。以修三次。"},{"start":9853.604,"end":9855.675,"text":"對,她的修正等率說要三次啦。"},{"start":9858.065,"end":9878.733,"text":"三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":9887.637,"end":9907.838,"text":"修正動議的第一條第二項還是恢復整合原來的一次違憲。現在司長的補充說明其實剛剛就是鄭天財委員已經說了其實我們放在第9條裡面是比較符合那再一次就是講說他恢復族名可以很多次因為就是跟文化不一樣"},{"start":9908.959,"end":9934.773,"text":"他有結婚、沒有結婚、或者是他要在家族……不是家族,就是在第9條裡面其實是有規範的,好不好?所以我們就不予採納修正動議,然後……好,謝謝。第一條的部分我們再來看一下鄭天財委員在第二款裡面,他有特別講請回復其傳統名字,他多了一個名字。"},{"start":9935.373,"end":9940.343,"text":"但是在性情條文裡面是傳統姓名請問一下護證師你們有什麼意見嗎?多加一個名字應該沒有問題吧?"},{"start":9948.213,"end":9974.845,"text":"如果是這樣的,如果考慮是原來現在的姓名條例的話,因為他姓名條例他是一個普通法,普通法的時候他要適用所有的狀況,第三條已經有規定了,姓名包含姓氏跟名字,如果沒有名字的話,他就可以登記原住民的名字,就可以登記名字就可以了,所以如果按照現行的第三條規定,已經可以涵蓋政委員的意見,就是已經包含"},{"start":9976.28,"end":10004.42,"text":"名字、傳統名字。我質詢的時候有提到了因為原住民身份法就是寫名字然後如果我們看線型條文的第8條改姓也是可以單獨寫姓然後第9條改名也可以單獨寫名所以沒有關係啊這個"},{"start":10005.711,"end":10030.205,"text":"合況原住民身份法已經用傳統名字了就尊重嘛沒什麼大礙好啦 市長我覺得你不用堅持好嘞 七龍委員不好意思喔其實我是支持政委員的看法不過啦原住民族身份法裡面喔因為我們要不要考量原住民族很多的他是沒有姓的"},{"start":10030.925,"end":10053.875,"text":"他就是名字這樣傳承的但是他這裡面已經有姓名了你如果要多加一個名字其實因為我們這裡我們今天修的這個法案不是原住民所以這個政委員我是覺得說其實姓名都有了這個兩條法律不一樣"},{"start":10055.057,"end":10056.539,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財"},{"start":10072.236,"end":10095.866,"text":"如果剛剛按照齊洛委員的說法,姓跟名其實是可以的,那所以我相信鄭天財委員也就不會堅持一定要把這個傳統姓名,可以吧?好,那所以這樣子,鄭天財委員他已經回答您的問題了,所以沒問題吧?我們就按照先前條文好不好?"},{"start":10100.784,"end":10101.105,"text":"不修正"},{"start":10108.269,"end":10129.025,"text":"第二項的台灣原住民族我多了一個族所以第一條的第二項台灣原住民現行的條文是現行法是沒有族我跟鄭天財委員多加了一個族所以這個沒意見謝謝"},{"start":10131.747,"end":10159.608,"text":"然後我們再來看一下第三項第三項呢高金素梅委員我有針對這個就是希望傳統姓名的原住民的傳統姓名的文化慣俗他的調查確認內涵意義認定的基準審核的程序和其他應遵行事項的辦法由中央原住民組主管定之我想這很重要就是剛剛我們說的有很多問題就是說他隨便亂起名"},{"start":10160.368,"end":10173.917,"text":"第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":10188.325,"end":10193.128,"text":"第一條按照委員高金素梅等24人的提案。"},{"start":10199.095,"end":10222.145,"text":"你的其實跟我我的其實是比較包含在裡面那個黃捷委員他的比較特別他特別他特別照顧這一個如果說他現在是以傳統姓名的人來登記的話他辦他現在是出生登記或出生戶籍登記的時候就已經取用原住民族傳統文字的話或者是傳統姓名的話"},{"start":10223.005,"end":10241.071,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":10250.953,"end":10265.442,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":10269.057,"end":10287.533,"text":"根委報告有關這個第一條第三項的部分如果說用行政機關來去針對援助民主的這個傳統姓名的基準審議的話我覺得這個會有一點問題所以是我的版本是嗎對對對那黃捷委員的版本呢黃捷委員的版本"},{"start":10290.858,"end":10305.562,"text":"全向臺灣原住民族及其他少數民族的出身登記及出社戶籍登記,以傳統姓名登記者得申請變更為漢人姓名,變更為漢人姓名者得申請回復傳統姓名,但均以疑似違憲。"},{"start":10333.706,"end":10348.353,"text":"三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「"},{"start":10350.819,"end":10351.679,"text":"全項變第二項,以列到第四項。」"},{"start":10380.127,"end":10403.277,"text":"對 對 對 我剛剛就要說對 不好意思那看一下我的版本的那個全向臺灣原住民我只有寫原住民我忘了寫一個族所以就是我們請那個還是要一個族好不好好如果大家就沒意見的話第一條我們就等一下鄭天財有意見"},{"start":10406.243,"end":10420.534,"text":"沒有啦,你們就是,你剛剛我們在質詢的時候呢,其實我已經提出來了,就是說你們已經有羽髮基金會,你們也都已經去調查所有的灌輸了這些東西,那有什麼困難點?"},{"start":10424.037,"end":10433.682,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":10448.263,"end":10456.909,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具"},{"start":10467.196,"end":10494.55,"text":"但是我是想說因為以現況來講我們很多原住民族跟原住民族不同族的通婚甚至有一些是跟非原住民結婚之後第三代今年年初才通過的原住民身份法很多原住民的小孩就是恢復就是本來沒有具有原住民身份他現在恢復這個原住民族身份這個很多的名字的這個審議跟基準可能會如果有行政機關去訂可能會有一些問題但是我們可以做"},{"start":10497.088,"end":10503.036,"text":"任地一個指引,工作的指引也可以。我是有瞭解到他們的困難,是這樣子,因為"},{"start":10515.623,"end":10536.508,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案案件。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案件。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案件。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案件。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案件。"},{"start":10539.189,"end":10556.589,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第二條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":10559.935,"end":10578.047,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":10587.372,"end":10607.181,"text":"三、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八"},{"start":10611.653,"end":10621.168,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10623.683,"end":10646.73,"text":"好,謝謝鄭天財委員,請喬惠委員好,謝謝,那我就附議鄭委員的說法啦那我們知道說主席您的這個提案的版本其實是盡可能要盡善盡美但是確實這個認定基準的部分就如同剛剛鄭委員講的我覺得現在大家在這樣子一個正要轉換在這十幾年、二十年正要一個又重新回復傳統姓名的狀態下"},{"start":10648.57,"end":10673.312,"text":"其實那個基準到底是什麼狀態大家都還在拿捏分寸剛剛其實政委員說的欸我們又原住民的傳統名字又有聖經來的又有日本名字的其實我也是有同樣的經歷啊因為我先生的名字龍南伊薩克凡亞斯其實就是啊因為我的公公伊薩克伊薩克是聖經英雄啊然後我們的舅舅叫伊蹦啊也是日本名字啊"},{"start":10673.752,"end":10701.226,"text":"所以他在回復傳統姓名的時候我就跟他說那與其與其你一定要挑一個這個傳統姓名的這個名把它放在前面那不如你的原來的漢名龍南也已經用了這麼久了不如你就直接把它放在最前面當你現在的名因為這也是一個時代又是從大家都是最傳統的阿美族本土語一直到漢語一直到外來語一直到日本語到現在是這樣的狀況其實也是時代的彰顯"},{"start":10703.667,"end":10705.108,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":10713.66,"end":10742.719,"text":"好我們這樣子好不好我們的第一條先讓他保留一下我們等一下再討論一下因為我還有很多的問題需要再請圓明慧但是圓明慧您在您的書面報告說沒有什麼意見然後你們就是尊重這一點你現在在幫跟我提出來我實在是有一點的覺得很奇怪好不好我們所以先讓他保留我們繼續齊路委員我先保留沒有意見不過我先提出問題"},{"start":10743.92,"end":10749.007,"text":"我請原民會跟內政部你們要考量一下,等一下一起處理"},{"start":10751.905,"end":10777.561,"text":"我們原來的現行法這邊寫的是臺灣原住民及其他少數民族之姓名那我們現在我們剛剛就是有變成臺灣原住民族及其他少數民族之姓名登記這我們剛剛大家是說這樣可是像召委的第一條的第三項我們這邊又變成前項臺灣原住民傳統姓名之文化習慣"},{"start":10778.522,"end":10802.518,"text":"我已經要多整一個組了我知道我知道所以聽我不是聽我聽我講完一下好不好我們我知道剛剛有在講一個台灣原住民族但是我覺得是在第一條的第二項裡面我們如果要要把它前後條文這樣子能夠比較貫通的話我覺得"},{"start":10805.356,"end":10825.732,"text":"第二項的台灣原住民族應該就直接寫原住民族及其他少數民族因為我們這一個法案是給所有的少數民族或什麼都可以適用的我不知道大家這樣會不會覺得奇怪你這樣看起來感覺有點怪怪的"},{"start":10830.235,"end":10856.984,"text":"小數民族跟臺灣原住民族可能不太一樣所以對啊不不一樣其實委員對但但我的意思就是說這樣子感覺這個法條前後怪怪我只是覺得法條前後怪怪的就只有這個怪怪因為你還有其他少數民族啊不然你是要把其他少數民族拿掉就不會怪怪的但你其他少數民族都還在"},{"start":10858.358,"end":10879.965,"text":"會怪怪的?少數民族其實是在第二項裡面有可是我們這邊是第我對法案的內容沒有意見只是他的文字呈現你這樣子會感覺怪怪的其實不會因為這邊只講的是台灣原住民族的傳統姓名他不是講其他的少數民族對"},{"start":10881.705,"end":10903.224,"text":"我是這樣子的說明然後我們先保留下第一條我們再走第二條第二條是高金素梅委員的版本跟鄭天財委員的版本是這樣子我們一樣是使用原住民族文字因為我特別用原住民族文字這樣寫是因為我們的語法法的第二條"},{"start":10904.365,"end":10923.144,"text":"其實呢我剛剛已經說明了原住民的文字不是羅馬拼音不是羅馬拼音我們就是按照法律用語在法律上面把它定下來請下原民會主委而副主委對不起副主委你來看一下第二條你有什麼意見"},{"start":10924.105,"end":10944.456,"text":"因為大家都一直在講原住民的文字就是用羅馬拼音但是按照現在與法委員會基金會裡面已經把原住民的文字確定用法律用於寫進去所以我們應該不要再用羅馬拼音這樣子的形容詞跟文字在法條上面好不好"},{"start":10945.56,"end":10963.055,"text":"沒有意見吧?主席我們現在推動的都是原住民族文字啊對啊,所以你們也是原住民族文字嘛好,請問一下在場的美匯委員主席,在這,我要來講建議考量第二條的實施日期是不是?第二條我有一個附帶決議,美匯委員看一下對"},{"start":10976.147,"end":11002.379,"text":"第二條我們只是在這個原住民族文字看一下我的版本就是但原住民族依其文化慣俗登記傳統姓名者得使用原住民族文字這是法律用語但是鄭天財委員的版本是說臺灣原住民族的傳統名字得使用羅馬拼音登記然後包括伍麗華委員的版本也是用羅馬拼音或"},{"start":11002.919,"end":11031.54,"text":"原住民族文字登記。」所以我們是不是把它統一就叫做原住民族文字?好,沒有意見的話就按照高金素委員的版本。對,鄭金財委員。他們是建議把它放在第三項,內政部的建議。內政部來,內政部你們說明一下。也就是說我們三個版本,三個版本就是。但是為什麼沒有跟常委提你們的建議啊?這是好奇怪喔。在書面資料裡面。"},{"start":11032.763,"end":11057.52,"text":"在他們的書面報告裡面有各位委員報告三個委員都其實都是主張可以單列羅馬平這個我們尊重但是文字單列原住民族文字這個我們都OK那委員三個版本裡面三個呈現方式都不太一樣像高金委員他就是您就是希望把他放在第一項的但書那"},{"start":11058.874,"end":11087.352,"text":"姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員�"},{"start":11088.353,"end":11113.775,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":11115.506,"end":11126.673,"text":"二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":11129.142,"end":11151.703,"text":"其他的文字修正你們來啦好不好OK好來現在我們來看一下第4條第4條呢一樣就是原住民族文字單列大家都同意是要單列嘛對不對然後鄭天財委員的是和伍麗華委員的是中文傳統名這個鄭天財委的名字有把它放在裡面"},{"start":11153.752,"end":11162.163,"text":"然後伍麗華委員版本是原住民族文字所以其實是沒有什麼意見請問一下行政部門第4條"},{"start":11164.827,"end":11187.661,"text":"跟各位委員報告,就是這裡大概有兩個重點,第一個各委員希望能夠把這個原來的傳統姓名改成中文傳統姓名,因為傳統姓名有兩種,一個是中文的傳統姓名,一種是原住民族文字,所以這裡是在講,第4條是在講並列的事情,所以如果並列的話,應該只有中文傳統姓名"},{"start":11189.022,"end":11191.083,"text":"可以並列原住民族文字。」"},{"start":11208.795,"end":11232.322,"text":"我是建議說是不是還是用原住民族文字那高金委員的您的這邊有提到這一個原住民族文字單列的這一部分因為這一部分已經在第二條已經有說明已經有列過了所以這個單列可能要刪除以上好請問在場委員有沒有什麼意見沒有好"},{"start":11235.327,"end":11255.511,"text":"所以你的建議的版本是?你的文字要怎麼修?我來列一下好了好就是第一個委員都有建議要臺灣原住民加個族所以就是臺灣原住民族之中文傳統姓名或漢人姓名均得以"},{"start":11263.953,"end":11286.732,"text":"軍得以傳統姓名之原住民族文字並列登記,其他少數民族之中文傳統姓名或漢人姓名軍得以傳統姓名之羅馬拼音並列登記,"},{"start":11288.055,"end":11307.696,"text":"具點不受第一條第一項規定之限制具點好謝謝內政部現在的修正條文你們剛剛才送上來以後真的是麻煩一下早一點好不好你們這樣是浪費很多人的時間請問在場的委員們你們同意這個內政部建議修正的條文和說明嗎"},{"start":11310.182,"end":11317.586,"text":"姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":11340.765,"end":11349.314,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":11353.476,"end":11372.568,"text":"臺灣原住民族的中文傳統姓名或漢人名字均得以傳統姓名之原住民族文字並列登記,其他少數民族的中文傳統姓名或漢人姓名均得以傳統姓名之羅馬拼音並列登記。"},{"start":11376.321,"end":11394.415,"text":"面臨挫把,這樣可以嗎?在場的委員們。請教一下,你們那個其他少數民族,你們是包含了哪一些?是包括新住民嗎?委員會,門帳,門帳。只有門帳嗎?對。那你們跟門帳確認了他們是用羅馬拼音的嗎?"},{"start":11398.356,"end":11418.804,"text":"已經確認過了,他們有用過,不然的話他們就會像現在他們的文字。好,謝謝大家,我們第4條就按照這個內政部建議的修正條文通過,好不好,謝謝。好,我們現在來看第8條,第8條其實呢,這個,我們就多加了一個台灣原住民族,"},{"start":11419.924,"end":11427.193,"text":"我跟鄭天財委員的版本都一樣我們讓文字法律文字讓他更明確化好不好接著下來第9條就是鄭天財委員的版本鄭天財委員的版本多了一項對不對"},{"start":11438.366,"end":11447.071,"text":"七款臺灣原住民族基於文化灌輸,所以這個部分就會解決了剛剛伍麗華委員所疑慮的問題。請問在場委員有沒有什麼意見?"},{"start":11461.444,"end":11487.913,"text":"我們剛剛有講那個第9條的修正動議黃捷委員的部分大家看一下臺灣原住民已登記中文傳統姓名或中文傳統姓名已並列登記原住民族文字者首次改名單列原住民族文字那請問一下行政部門對於鄭天財委員的提案的部分然後或者是修正這個黃捷委員的修正動議裡面有什麼樣的意見"},{"start":11491.015,"end":11517.426,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":11518.749,"end":11546.8,"text":"第七款臺灣原住民已登記中文傳統姓名或中文傳統姓名已並列登記原住民族文字者首次改名單列原住民族文字就是可以再改的意思這個部分跟剛才要還第一條是不是相相關"},{"start":11549.178,"end":11573.494,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":11579.918,"end":11583.139,"text":"我希望但那個三次違憲還是要留著比較保險"},{"start":11605.285,"end":11620.039,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":11620.239,"end":11649.708,"text":"混為。我稍微在這邊跟大家講一下現在我們鄭天財委員的版本第9條其實呢他講的是原住民族基於文化慣俗他跟幾次是沒有關係的所以如果緩解委員你的修正動力的第9條增加的部分我們回到第一條來談好不好因為我們第一條是被保留的好不好我們就不要浪費大家太多的時間來第9條呢我們就按照委員鄭天財21人提案"},{"start":11650.128,"end":11672.78,"text":"二條及第三條及第四條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":11685.022,"end":11689.404,"text":"這個要怎麼放?來,來,市長。這個,這個,這個,什麼意見?"},{"start":11693.553,"end":11714.415,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":11716.05,"end":11734.916,"text":"三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":11740.773,"end":11763.769,"text":"三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第五條及第六條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":11764.753,"end":11766.234,"text":"審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":11780.834,"end":11802.271,"text":"道歉,吳華委員,第九條已經通過了,好不好?謝謝,沒有限制數。好,謝謝,來。好,第一條的部分,黃姐委員的這個啦,還有我的這個全項,台灣原住民族那個,第四項。"},{"start":11806.516,"end":11807.716,"text":"第7款綜合法律條例部分條文。"},{"start":11836.115,"end":11859.693,"text":"那就按照您說的剛剛如果來解決這些問題按照剛剛在附帶決議案因為剛好高金有提一個附帶決議案有提到就是管理原住民族傳統民智的認定基準跟其實希望我們在六個月內完成嘛那我的意思說如果我們可以在時間內完成時間等一下就是說我們如果可以在這個時間內完成的話其實條文就不用再去訂定了"},{"start":11860.68,"end":11888.181,"text":"但是如果委員要去訂定這個條文我們是建議是這樣因為我們覺得我們尊重委員的條文內容就是關於台灣民族民族傳統姓名文化灌輸由中央嚴明主管機關調查確認這個OK那他的意涵取用方式及其他陰性注意的指引就是由中央嚴明主管機關會同中央主管機關訂定我們想說這樣去做那至於這個"},{"start":11889.693,"end":11906.805,"text":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具"},{"start":11918.001,"end":11935.186,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第二條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":11943.407,"end":11956.935,"text":"文字對第三項的部分按照原明會所提的文字修正。我們讓他通過我就不堅持,但是附帶決議一定要做,可以吧?"},{"start":11959.151,"end":11986.11,"text":"主席主席主席主席不好意思對你附帶決議我要連署好來來來來來我們謝謝巧慧這個原住民的我們原住民的媳婦當然要好當然來來請大家一起連署好不好大家一起力量大然後我們讓園民會能夠趕快競速來完成好嗎好我們現在回再來回到黃婕委員的部分我們是不是要增訂一下黃婕委員的"},{"start":11987.369,"end":12015.226,"text":"不用了,好,謝謝黃捷委員。他不用了啦,好,好。第9條裡面了,剛剛伍麗華委員擔心的部分那個已經在第9條裡面有規範了,對,好不好。"},{"start":12020.455,"end":12034.365,"text":"第一條有一個修正動議,但是前項改成第二項,行政部門對黃捷委員的裡面的文字有沒有意見?"},{"start":12045.115,"end":12058.101,"text":"這個是在講黃泉委員他其實有兩個提案吶吼一個是第二項大家看一下他那個提案裡面吼他有台灣原住第二項他是台灣原住民族這個沒有問題跟委員的一樣"},{"start":12059.871,"end":12074.321,"text":"其他少數民族之傳統姓名他把我們原他把現行條文的姓名登記改成傳統姓名OK這個比較明確他就是台灣原住民或其他少數民族的傳統姓名這個明確這個沒有問題"},{"start":12075.802,"end":12093.57,"text":"二條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":12100.851,"end":12112.369,"text":"如果現在只是處理第三項就OK阿如果不處理黃捷委員的第二項我們沒有意見但是因為黃捷委員的這個第二項的文字已經處理好了鄭天才委員的第九條"},{"start":12123.892,"end":12142.906,"text":"主席是不是因為黃婕委員有兩個版本所以你們現在在講的其實是有點他有他有兩個他等於是提了兩次所以他的你現在一直在講說他那個第九條已經處理掉了好像是沒有還有一個王美惠的王美惠三次"},{"start":12147.474,"end":12155.02,"text":"我來建議我來建議我來拜託所謂的修正動議不是去對照現行條文"},{"start":12166.767,"end":12175.493,"text":"修正動議是針對提出的修正條文,其他委員的修正台或行政院版本的修正條文,再提修正動議。"},{"start":12197.958,"end":12220.659,"text":"我整理一下好不好黃鐵委員他總共有提了兩次修正動議啦所以我們現在可能有點搞混了這個你們內政部你們應該知道好不好你把它整理一下給大家這樣子才不會這樣子大家在那邊很亂好不好你們先整理這一個那我那個召委好不好"},{"start":12222.3,"end":12249.299,"text":"讓他去你們趕快去用一個讓大家知道好不好這樣我拜託一下這一個好不好那還有召委那他們去處理的時候我們可能要討論一個問題這裡面都沒有施行日期或沒有日出條款我們要處理不是附帶決議這個這個只是六個月內要他們那個嘛但我覺得比較要那個的其實在這個法條裡面"},{"start":12251.389,"end":12257.493,"text":"我覺得要問你171你可能修171或我們大家有共識我覺得這樣比較好啦你覺得勒"},{"start":12271.52,"end":12297.577,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":12299.017,"end":12306.91,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":12315.37,"end":12333.71,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":12334.471,"end":12357.159,"text":"三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「"},{"start":12359.835,"end":12362.037,"text":"4項改為第2項改為第4項改為第2項改為第4項"},{"start":12388.432,"end":12400.297,"text":"雖然我們的互證師現在才去印他們的條文的版本,但是現在我們委員們都已經了解嘛,對不對?好,OK,那我們回到那邊去。"},{"start":12409.001,"end":12434.675,"text":"三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12438.021,"end":12438.222,"text":"無認證依項"},{"start":12441.294,"end":12460.422,"text":"姓名條例第三條及第四條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八"},{"start":12470.606,"end":12490.539,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及第五條及"},{"start":12491.78,"end":12508.463,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":12509.13,"end":12538.79,"text":"二、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":12539.17,"end":12555.42,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":12556.647,"end":12580.024,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":12582.486,"end":12610.524,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":12612.326,"end":12636.624,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":12640.477,"end":12641.798,"text":"他剛剛解釋了啦。"},{"start":12666.313,"end":12692.95,"text":"所以這樣的話會變成是如果我現在是寫龍南以薩克凡亞斯我現在要把那個漢字再拿掉的話就拿不掉因為我已經使用完我的quota就是回復傳統姓名對不對但我記得他早上不是這樣說的他那個地方的話是他是在第九條啦部長在這裡啊來啊直接問啊部長"},{"start":12695.232,"end":12720.971,"text":"早上我們在說的那個齁如果他現在就像我先生嘛講直接一點就我先生我們現在通過的版本是我先生叫陳龍南回復成龍南以薩克凡亞斯這樣是用掉了他回復傳統姓名的一次機會已經用掉了嘛那他當現在是有並列龍南以薩克凡亞斯這樣這是他的身份證上面好今天我們通過這個法以後他可以單列原住民族文字了對不對"},{"start":12721.551,"end":12732.505,"text":"那他想要再去申請的時候這個是叫做回復傳統姓名還是是有另外的這樣的更名還是是怎麼樣狀況改名改名對啊因為他現在已經是傳統名職"},{"start":12737.386,"end":12740.988,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第"},{"start":12759.068,"end":12784.139,"text":"所以最好第一條不要動 我的建議是這樣沒有啦 剛剛有解釋了啦第一條 像現在他剛巧慧早上就我們討論過這個所以這個的話就等於是如果他現在要從並列變成是單列即便他已經用完他回復傳統姓名的狀況的時候他現在就等於是使用第九條的新增第七款"},{"start":12784.879,"end":12801.769,"text":"第七款來說這個是不限制台灣原住民族基於文化慣俗所以我們才說當才那一條因為從我們戶政機關來講他就是依法行政嘛他就要法有依據他就可以用那個第九條所以這樣就沒有問題了嘛"},{"start":12812.695,"end":12816.379,"text":"對所以我才說對不是 政委員你現在的意見不是 啊你現在加的這一項有什麼問題"},{"start":12834.377,"end":12848.936,"text":"三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":12850.718,"end":12857.083,"text":"姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":12873.977,"end":12900.849,"text":"問題因為我們剛剛抱歉我晚到了一點沒有聽到所以我沒有聽到我可不可以跟您請教是什麼問題我只不過跟他們講說反正有第9條就好了沒有啦他剛才他有開始說他就是說第一條的你修正來免加我沒有意見他說會搞亂了啦"},{"start":12903.226,"end":12932.539,"text":"二、審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":12933.274,"end":12950.463,"text":"第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":12958.141,"end":12982.773,"text":"對啦所以他才說要放嘛因為我們現行法都是在處理過往的大環境只有漢到元很少有極少數是有一出生就是元的人嘛但是時至今日就像我女兒我再說一次就像我女兒現在他們一出生就是元了那是不是也可以賦予他有到漢的機會而且還有機會再變回來現在你放的第4這一條不就是在處理這個問題嗎"},{"start":12984.889,"end":13000.557,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":13005.933,"end":13016.645,"text":"第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八"},{"start":13026.021,"end":13047.331,"text":"聽一下,他剛才說了,說這一定放下去啊,一天,欸吶等一下等一下,我覺得你們都在講不同的事情,對,剛剛喬惠其實已經講得很清楚了,我們過去的那一部分"},{"start":13048.031,"end":13072.641,"text":"政委員的版本在第9條處理。那巧惠在提的是他現在一出生就是原住民的名字然後他能不能改譬如說改為漢名那改為漢名之後他能不能還有譬如說還可以再回來的狀況這個是剛剛黃婕委員提到的這是我理解的黃婕的版本是這樣所以第一條的部分剛剛在講第9條已經處理"},{"start":13073.661,"end":13088.24,"text":"第一條的部分這邊就已經剛剛也講了這邊本來的前項就改成是第二項嘛對不對那就放進來了然後另外就是剛才提到的這個第四第四項的部分再做處理"},{"start":13090.988,"end":13109.207,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及第四條及"},{"start":13109.667,"end":13125.823,"text":"二、審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":13127.697,"end":13142.624,"text":"所以這樣OK了齁?我們真的要確認因為我真的不想修出去會被罵的我是負責任的對啊我想說我這麼認真為什麼出去還要被罵我才不要勒對啊"},{"start":13166.012,"end":13168.293,"text":"二項修正條例部分條例部分條例部分條例"},{"start":13191.414,"end":13207.531,"text":"第二項臺灣原住民修正為臺灣原住民族增訂第三項前項臺灣原住民族傳統姓名文化慣俗由中央原住民族主管機關調查確認其內涵意義取用方式及其他因行注意事項之質疑。"},{"start":13207.931,"end":13228.724,"text":"由中央主管機關會同中央原住民族主管機關定之。增訂第四項,第二項,臺灣原住民族及其他少數民族之出生登記及出社戶籍登記以傳統姓名登記者得申請變更為漢人姓名,變更為漢人姓名者得申請回復傳統姓名,但均以一次違憲。請議事人員把麥克風給他。"},{"start":13248.989,"end":13258.777,"text":"三項前項台灣原住民族傳統姓名文化慣俗由中央原住民族主管機關調查確認。"},{"start":13262.33,"end":13289.32,"text":"其內涵意義、啟用方式及其他因行注意事項之指引,由中央主管機關會同中央研究民主主管機關定之。」第一個就是說為什麼是要內政部會同研明會這個是傳統信名然後我們的文化慣俗"},{"start":13290.836,"end":13317.638,"text":"然後前面已經由你們去調查然後後面還要由變成用內政部匯統這個部分是不是文字在在調整啊好 國政副主委好 這個部分因為我們本來想說姓名條例主管機關是內政部不過剛剛委員的建議我們沒意見我們中央嚴明主管機關匯統中央主管機關我們OK"},{"start":13323.772,"end":13349.9,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。七、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「"},{"start":13353.372,"end":13372.67,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":13374.827,"end":13397.478,"text":"姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員�"},{"start":13404.986,"end":13434.185,"text":"用傳統名字去登記會影響為什麼會影響呢我擔心內政部在執行的時候所有的附政機關附政事務所在執行的時候現在沒有這條條文的時候因為你們跟他們有一個另外一個行政規行政命令"},{"start":13436.479,"end":13460.504,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":13466.619,"end":13475.299,"text":"資料裏面的很多的附贈機關了就用這個增加了我們很多鄉親還要跑很多趟"},{"start":13478.342,"end":13479.122,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":13504.477,"end":13528.007,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具、「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":13529.377,"end":13539.401,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例第二條及第〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例第二條及第〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":13560.772,"end":13581.402,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":13587.185,"end":13604.88,"text":"因為委員我請你不要擔心是因為在今天在修這個法我想大家有非常高的一個共識那內政部也有非常高的一個共識願意全力來支持所以委員不用擔心那第二個是這個地方在提到因為"},{"start":13606.461,"end":13620.913,"text":"這個我們從今天的討論裡面也發現原住民族的傳統姓名的文化慣俗等等其實真的是非常多樣那這個需要一個社會大家共同認識學習的過程"},{"start":13623.816,"end":13646.896,"text":"所以我們在行政機關我們的確也會有需要相關的一個指引那這樣我們的不管是中央還是地方的公務的同仁才知道接下來在執行面要怎麼做所以委員你不用擔心這個其實是一個行政上的指引這個反而是有助於我們後續工作的一個推動所以以上來做簡單的報告那另外"},{"start":13648.482,"end":13663.689,"text":"另外因為主管機關是這樣子,姓名條例的主管機關是內政部所以因為這個是法是修在姓名條例的第一條所以還是要由這個內政部來會同這個原住民族主管機關來定會比較恰當"},{"start":13665.831,"end":13690.845,"text":"非常謝謝部長的補充說明,非常的完整所以剛剛鄭天財我們擔心的事情我覺得他當然會存在但是我們事實上法條定了之後未來我們的族人就必須要他要修改他的姓名或者是他就必須要找到他的根源第一條部分我們就按照修正草案的修正文字"},{"start":13702.211,"end":13708.435,"text":"三項原住民族依其文化慣俗登記傳統姓名者得使用原住民族文字。"},{"start":13710.596,"end":13723.204,"text":"單數移到第3條。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":13735.71,"end":13758.524,"text":"第四條第一項修正為臺灣原住民族之中文傳統姓名或漢人姓名均得以傳統姓名之原住民族文字並列登記,其他少數民族之中文傳統姓名或漢人姓名均得以傳統姓名之羅馬拼音並列登記,不受第一條第一項規定之限制。"},{"start":13759.704,"end":13784.244,"text":"第四條的部分我們就是按照內政部建議修正條文通過。現在第八條的部分就按照鄭天財等21人還有高金素梅的24人的提案照案通過。第九條的部分按照鄭天財委員的提案條文通過。這樣子大家都沒意見。"},{"start":13785.365,"end":13808.401,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。"},{"start":13813.762,"end":13836.672,"text":"日出條款我們另外提案再來一起處理好不好好謝謝那個網絡委員的提醒好請問服務委員照剛才的協商結論通過請問有沒有異議沒有沒有異議謝謝本次會議審查通過的條文相關對不起是法治局法治局有什麼意見嗎"},{"start":13841.12,"end":13864.575,"text":"確認一點就是第二條第二條剛剛說但書一列增列為第三項的部分對那把但字拿掉對但拿掉那請問前面原住民族前面要不要加台灣請審查會確認以上得使用原住民族文字應該台灣台灣原住民族"},{"start":13865.29,"end":13867.311,"text":"得使用臺灣原住民族文字"},{"start":13897.965,"end":13913.326,"text":"市長你還有什麼意見?剛才只有講到是臺灣原住民族之傳統姓名得使用原住民族文字登記碼後面是不是不受前兩項規定之限制?"},{"start":13915.919,"end":13944.329,"text":"在哪裡啊?你在講什麼?你是不是餓了?餓過頭了?沒有沒有沒有,因為前面兩項是在講這個要使用中文名字就不要,剛剛園民會古政副主委已經說了啊在我們這個文字裡面是沒有這樣子啊不要啦,我們不接受了啦,現在都已經第二條都已經處理完畢了啊你現在還在,你還沒睡醒是不是?"},{"start":13946.715,"end":13955.606,"text":"二條及第三條及第四條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":13958.2,"end":13975.445,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":13990.506,"end":13995.851,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第"},{"start":14002.461,"end":14026.204,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":14029.229,"end":14045.437,"text":"但是前面那個法制是希望說那個但字拿掉之後是加台灣原住民族依其文化慣俗登記傳統姓名者得使用OK的原住民族文字因為國家語言發展法就是用原住民族文字沒有加台灣對啦如果你要"},{"start":14053.689,"end":14079.702,"text":"三條條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭"},{"start":14087.48,"end":14107.429,"text":"第二條的第一項原來委員增訂但書的部分一列增列為第三項,那把但字拿掉嗎?對,那我們就是一列到第三項的第一句,第一句是原住民族依其文化慣俗登記傳統姓名者,就具首的部分是用原住民"},{"start":14108.169,"end":14132.954,"text":"原住民族三個字幾個字。那我只要請審查會確認是用原住民族還是用臺灣原住民族聚首的部分。剛剛股仲副主委已經說了是原住民族沒有臺灣啦。鮑主席鮑主席我可不可以以我的理解看不好像有沒有正確齁你如果有你的建議你就大膽的說出來嘛"},{"start":14133.334,"end":14140.019,"text":"三條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":14163.635,"end":14176.091,"text":"那剛剛副主委我不知道你是不是針對這個回答但我剛剛耳朵聽到的你是在說原住民族文字這個部分這個term是專用語所以不要加台灣你們一個在講頭一個在講尾我聽到的是這樣"},{"start":14179.335,"end":14197.341,"text":"因為我是聽法治局提到臺灣原住民族文字那所以我說原住民族文字就原住民族文字至於這個因為這個如果真列第三項的話因為前面都是寫臺灣原住民族嘛那就加臺灣也都OK所以是他發現有漏字他回答剛好不知道回答到後面去了大概是這樣"},{"start":14202.195,"end":14226.716,"text":"來加臺灣兩個字其實本稍為的認為就是說在原住原居法裡面都沒有臺灣這個字出現了但對對對在按照所有的法規裡面都沒有前面有一個臺灣這個字這就是原住民族好不好不好意思好謝謝來大家看一下這個文字第二條有沒有意見"},{"start":14229.898,"end":14243.214,"text":"因為他這裡面是寫中華民國沒有意見的話我們就按照第二條的再修正文字就這樣通過好不好好我們現在已經處理完畢了好主席做一下的決議"},{"start":14245.676,"end":14255.619,"text":"討論事項所列的姓名條例部分條文修正法草案以併案審查完略,擬具審查報告提報院會討論。請問在場的委員我們應該就不需要經過檔堂協商了吧?"},{"start":14261.561,"end":14273.484,"text":"本案在院會討論時有本席高金、昭偉、素梅做補充的說明。我們現在處理附帶決議的部分有三案請宣讀。已經宣讀了嗎?所以大家都沒意見?三項附帶決議如果沒意見就照案通過。"},{"start":14287.435,"end":14299.579,"text":"好,我們附帶決議的部分有三項,我們就照案通過。好,本次會議我們就到這裡結束,再一次謝謝所有在場的委員及事廣義,我們散會,謝謝。"},{"start":14309.073,"end":14327.266,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":14328.836,"end":14355.234,"text":"第二條及第三條及第四條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":14358.856,"end":14376.171,"text":"三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具、「姓名條例第三條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":14377.09,"end":14393.138,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"}]}},{"id":"152029","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152029","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1e24b6c99cb16da82a1f61ce136a0fb9155be169921a0a7176d66689d4447f2305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"高金素梅","委員發言時間":"10:09:46 - 10:19:39","影片長度":"00:09:53","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；上開議案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-16"},"duration":593,"end_time":"2024-05-02T10:19:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T10:09:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":279,"blocks":[["高金委員素梅：（10時9分）謝謝主席，有請部長還有谷縱副主委。"],["主席：請部長還有谷縱副主委。"],["林部長右昌：召委好。"],["高金委員素梅：非常謝謝Kacaw部長，雖然你有阿美族的名字，但是你沒有辦法取得阿美族的身分。但是你身為部長，剛剛在這邊回答不管是巧慧委員也好，或者是今天您的這個書面報告也好，我認為都是立了一個很好的示範，然後讓我們繼續往前走。所以相關的部會，我希望在今天我們這個條文修正之後，能夠落實來執行。然後如果是預算的問題，那麼就請編列預算；如果是技術性問題的話，我們也請戶政司能夠跟原民會充分的做好這個平臺，好嗎？"],["林部長右昌：好，沒有問題，我想這是政府應該做的。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝部長，謝謝。您休息一下，我請谷縱。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：委員好。"],["高金委員素梅：好。在審查這個條文之前，我必須要跟大家說明一下，有關原住民姓名使用的文字，我們不會再稱為羅馬拼音。因為大家都說原住民的文字看起來像是羅馬拼音，事實上我們不叫羅馬拼音了，因為各族群，也就是有16個族群，我們有自己的書寫系統，有了，那這個書寫系統，我們是不是請谷縱稍微簡單地跟大家介紹一下，這個書寫系統我們稱為原住民族的文字，對不對？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：原住民族文字的書寫系統，其實在民國94年我們跟教育部已經會銜公告，有41種的語言別。"],["高金委員素梅：所以你看得到今天，我要特別講一下，原住民族語言發展法第二條明定「原住民族文字：指用以記錄原住民族語言之書寫系統。」所以我們已經有文字的書寫系統，希望大家不要再誤解，然後說原住民名字的取名都是用羅馬拼音，所以可能未來大家學習的方向還滿多的，所以，今天在我的修法版本已經提出了，在質詢之前也跟大家說明，希望大家能夠清楚，也能夠瞭解。","然後繼續來看一下，2023年12月18日，立法院三讀通過原住民族身分法的修正草案，修法之後，原住民和非原住民結婚（就是我的爸爸跟我媽媽）所生的孩子（就是我）不用再像以前，以前我的名字叫「金素梅」，我要恢復原住民身分，所以我必須要加一個媽媽的姓「高」，所以我叫「高金素梅」。對，這是在2023年12月18日之前，所以大家會覺得為什麼你以前叫「金素梅」，現在叫「高金素梅」，就是在還沒有修法之前，我們必須要把媽媽的姓放前面，才能夠代表我是原住民，這是很荒謬的一個認定，對吧？但是2023年12月18日修法之後就不用了，我們就直接可以加原住民文字的姓名並列，就可以取得原住民身分，對吧？谷縱。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：是。"],["高金委員素梅：好。所以我今天要跟副主委反映，這部分我們也看到了幾個問題，就是我的辦公室，我不知道原民會有沒有這個困擾，有很多人很想要回復到原住民的名字，但是他們隨便亂取，而且他們也不知道怎麼取，有時候他是布農族，他取到阿美族的名字，所以在文化認同上面其實是非常混淆的。請問原民會，你們有什麼樣的方式來解決這個問題？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：我想誠如剛剛委員所報告，就是這個條文修正之後，我們其實也常常收到我們的族人……"],["高金委員素梅：你們也有嘛，對吧？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：對，因為……"],["高金委員素梅：很困擾，對不對？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：因為族人到都市就業或是就學之後，長期而言可能有一些就是跟部落的連結，就比較少了……"],["高金委員素梅：是的。對。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：少了以後，又加上通婚的關係，那生子或是孫子之後，他們要取名字就找不到他的根源，所以我們都會鼓勵他要回到他的根源，往上源去追溯，就可以追溯到他應有的名字。"],["高金委員素梅：好，所以你應該怎麼做？不能夠被動式的，因為有很多誠如你所說的，已經離開部落很久了，他也許是二代了，那他根本跟部落沒有連結。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：那當然第一個，現在針對戶役政機關，我們有做一個恢復傳統姓名的工作指引，不過，面對現在都市化的現實狀況，我想我們原民會有責任針對原住民族的傳統姓名去做一個調查跟整理，可以給我們遷居都市的族人作為依循跟參考，不過，最重要就是他還是要追溯他本身的族跟他的家族……"],["高金委員素梅：好，所以你同意我今天的修法方向嗎？看一下第一條。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：關於委員的修法，原則上是可行，不過針對審議的部分，可能會有一些難度。"],["高金委員素梅：有什麼樣的難度？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：比如說我舉例，以我家裡的現況就是有通婚，像布農族跟阿美族通婚，那通婚的結果，像我的外甥雖然戶籍登記是寫阿美族，但是他是取我們布農族的名字，因為是他們合意去決定的。另外一個就是我們布農族的取名，像我們家族是名字在前面、氏族在後面，但是有一個家族伊斯坦大是決定氏族名要在前面，所以族人就叫「伊斯坦大……」，就是這樣。所以有很多的狀況可能跟現實……"],["高金委員素梅：您看看您現在就已經舉出兩個例子了，所以事實上原民會是有方式去調查跟研究的嘛！"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：對。"],["高金委員素梅：只是你們可能沒有把它列為實務上的執行方便，所以在這邊我要求你兩個月之內跟內政部和戶政司研議，你們要提出一些報告，好不好？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：這個沒問題。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。另外，我要建議內政部，我們再請部長，在我們並列原住民族文字的選項上面，我認為應該要遵循族人的意願，中文漢字在前、在上還是原住民族的文字在前、在上，應該要交由族人去選擇，不應該為了行政的方便，然後各機關都通用把中文的漢字擺在前面，把原住民族的文字放在後面，對於原住民命名的指引手冊，是不是請原民會跟戶政單位能夠做一些參考然後來討論，可以嗎？"],["林部長右昌：是，就像剛剛副主委講的……"],["高金委員素梅：也在兩個月之內研議方向跟規劃的報告。"],["林部長右昌：這個沒有問題，因為這個涉及文化跟習俗的部分，謝謝。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。我在這邊再一次說，原住民族語言發展法第一條已經開宗明義的規定原住民族語言是國家的語言，因此我們族人就可以使用原住民族的文字作為姓名的登記，既然是國家語言，為什麼不可以增加單列原住民族文字的選項呢？所以我要在這邊請部長、副主委還有內政部的戶政司尊重一下我們原民會的立場，也尊重一下族人的立場，可以嗎？"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告，這個跟現在行政院還有內政部決策的方向是一致的，我們支持也表示尊重。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。再給我一點時間，我還有一個疑慮，我們請外交部的代表，謝謝。"],["主席：我們請外交部。"],["高金委員素梅：為了節省時間，在你一邊走上台的同時我就先問一下，如果我們族人選擇單列原住民族的文字來命名，我們的護照會不會出現名字跟姓氏顛倒的問題，或者是外交部你們怎麼樣來精準地判別哪一個詞是族人的名字還是家族的姓氏？您剛剛應該也聽到副主委還有其他原住民族的官員在這邊說了自己的名字其實是有意義的，所以在護照上面的使用字數有沒有限制？技術上有沒有問題？"],["林組長秀蓉：報告委員，目前護照上的登載方式是依據戶籍資料上的登載。"],["高金委員素梅：對，所以你的意思是說，戶籍資料如果改變的話，你們外交部的護照上面也會改變？"],["林組長秀蓉：是，我們也會跟著配合。"],["高金委員素梅：這需不需要有預算的編列讓你們的書寫系統來改變？"],["林組長秀蓉：其實軟硬體的系統都要改，然後可能要周知國外各政府機關，因為會變成跟我們現在出去的版本長得不太一樣，所以為了避免原住民族出去造成困擾，到時候可能這個版本也要周知各國。"],["高金委員素梅：好，所以今天我們這些版本或者是今天修法通過的話，你們就要必須要做，對不對？"],["林組長秀蓉：對，我們會配合因應來辦理。"],["高金委員素梅：你們沒有意見吧？"],["林組長秀蓉：沒有。"],["高金委員素梅：好，謝謝。最後，請大家看一下臺北市政府在行政院院會的態度，就是籲請行政院修法支持原住民族單列原住民族文字，所以我希望中央機關也能夠有這樣的態度，今天看起來大家都是往好的方向，非常感謝大家。"],["林部長右昌：是，委員，我跟您報告，剛剛我已經非常明確地表示，中央在政策上我們是支持，那在執行面上也會跟相關部會一起來討論，然後對執行面的部分把它完整的一併做處理，謝謝。"],["高金委員素梅：好，太好了！今天的修法一定會很順利，所以我們也不需要朝野協商，如果今天從委員會出去的話，我們就讓它三讀通過好不好？好，謝謝。mh'uway cimu，這是泰雅族語謝謝你們的意思，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝高金召委的質詢，也謝謝我們部長、副主委還有代理司長。"],["主席（高金委員素梅）：謝謝建賓委員。接著我們請可愛的美惠委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":72,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-16","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","張智倫","黃仁","林倩綺"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 等21人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe\n等16人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.9334687500000003,"end":3.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.18659375,"end":5.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.64221875,"end":3.6590937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.58284375,"end":7.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.16909375,"end":18.239093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.746593750000002,"end":10.797218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.898468750000003,"end":11.286593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.57659375,"end":22.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.91346875,"end":26.997218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.36846875,"end":29.05596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.629718750000002,"end":30.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.92909375,"end":42.657218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.16034375,"end":36.244718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":36.345968750000004,"end":36.51471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":42.82596875,"end":45.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.68659375,"end":44.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.54284375,"end":49.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.74096875,"end":46.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":50.52096875,"end":51.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":51.02721875,"end":62.99159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.329093750000006,"end":70.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.58534375,"end":76.91346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.04846875,"end":82.90409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":83.20784375000001,"end":84.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.44409375000001,"end":87.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.87846875000001,"end":85.06409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":87.15659375,"end":99.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.27346875,"end":95.66159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.17159375,"end":99.40784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.55971875,"end":107.91284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.45284375000001,"end":114.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.70534375000001,"end":112.97534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.97534375000001,"end":113.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.49409375,"end":121.96971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.20596875000001,"end":149.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.93159375000002,"end":153.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.27284375000002,"end":200.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.91096875000002,"end":211.23846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.62659375,"end":215.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":215.94659375,"end":227.50596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.05096875,"end":225.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":227.67471875,"end":241.79909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.55221875,"end":228.82221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.82221875000002,"end":228.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.28846875000002,"end":252.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.49909375000001,"end":244.92096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.95846875,"end":248.41409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.93284375000002,"end":250.38846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.09284375000001,"end":263.19659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":260.59784375000004,"end":260.69909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":263.19659375000003,"end":277.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.07221875,"end":276.52784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":277.38846875,"end":280.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":280.47659375,"end":280.78034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":280.83096875,"end":293.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.41284375000004,"end":283.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.71659375,"end":283.86846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.69409375000004,"end":295.19159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":295.19159375000004,"end":295.68096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":295.93409375000005,"end":303.20721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.19971875000005,"end":298.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.20721875000004,"end":304.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":304.01721875000004,"end":307.22346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.10534375000003,"end":307.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":307.34159375,"end":312.35346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.39221875000004,"end":307.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":313.02846875,"end":315.76221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":316.01534375,"end":319.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":319.86284375,"end":332.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":323.35596875000005,"end":323.69346875},{"speaker":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為大家都說原住民的這些看起來像是羅馬拼音事實上我們不叫羅馬拼音了因為呢各族群也就是有16個族群我們有自己的書寫系統"},{"start":77.262,"end":95.655,"text":"有了,那這個書寫系統我們是不是請古仲稍微簡單跟大家介紹一下這個書寫系統呢我們稱為原住民族的文字對不對?就是原住民族文字的書寫系統其實在民國94年我們已經跟教育部已經會選公告有41種的語言、語言別"},{"start":99.698,"end":124.403,"text":"所以你看到我們今天我們有特別講一下第二條原住民的文字是指用以來請助理再回來這個以記錄原住民語言的書寫系統所以我們已經有文字的書寫系統了所以希望大家不要再誤解然後說原住民的名字的取名的是用羅馬拼音所以可能為了大家學習的方向還蠻多的"},{"start":126.383,"end":148.392,"text":"所以今天在我的修法版本已經提出了也在質詢之前也跟大家說明希望大家能夠清楚也能夠了解然後繼續來看一下2023年12月18號立法院三讀通過原住民族身份法的修正草案修法之後原住民和非原住民結婚就是我的爸爸跟我媽媽所生的孩子就是我"},{"start":149.993,"end":174.883,"text":"不再像以前以前我的名字叫金素梅那我要恢復原住民身份所以我必須要加一個媽媽的姓高所以我叫高金素梅對這是在2023年12月18號之前所以大家會覺得為什麼你以前叫金素梅現在叫高金素梅就是我們還沒有修法所以我們必須要把媽媽的姓放前面才能夠代表我是原住民這是很荒謬的一個認定對吧"},{"start":176.343,"end":199.651,"text":"但是2023年12月18號修法之後呢就不用了我們就直接可以把這個加原住民的文字的姓名並列就可以取得原住民身份對吧古仲是好所以我今天要跟副主委反映這也也看到了幾個問題就是我辦公室我不知道原民會有沒有這個困擾就是有很多人很想要回復到原住民的名字但是呢他們隨便亂取"},{"start":201.112,"end":222.774,"text":"而且他們也不清到怎麼取有時候他是布農族他取到阿美族的名字所以在文化認同上面其實是非常混淆的請問原民會你們有什麼樣的方式來解決這個問題我想陳祖剛委員所報告就是這個條文修正之後我們其實也常常收到我們的主人"},{"start":225.155,"end":251.85,"text":"因為這個主人到都市就業或是就寫之後呢也長期可能有一些就長期跟部落的連結就比較少了少了以後他們又加上通婚的關係那生子或是孫子之後他們要取名字就找不到他的根源所以我們都會鼓勵他就是要回到他的根源往上緣去追溯就可以追溯到他應有的名字"},{"start":252.13,"end":280.073,"text":"好,所以你應該怎麼做?不能夠被動式的讓他們,因為有很多傳言所說的他已經在部落很久了,他也許是二代了那他根本跟部落沒有連結那當然第一個我們現行就是我們有針對互義政機關我們有做一個恢復傳統姓名的工作指引不過面對現在都市化的一個現行的這個狀況我想我們原民會有責任針對原住民族的姓名"},{"start":281.334,"end":294.78,"text":"傳統姓名去做一個調查跟整理可以給我們千禧都市的族人做一個依循跟參考不過最重要就是他還是要追溯他本身的族跟他的家族所以你同意我今天的修法嗎方向嗎"},{"start":296.081,"end":312.18,"text":"關於委員的修法嚴懲喪失可行不過針對審議的部分可能會有一些難度有什麼樣的難度?比如說我舉例以我家裡的現況就是有通婚像不明組跟阿美組通婚通婚的結果"},{"start":313.121,"end":339.284,"text":"像我的外甥他的名字就取他雖然戶籍登記是寫阿美族但是他是取我們布農族的名字因為他們合意去決定的另外一個就是像我們布農族取名像我們家族是名字在前面氏族在後面但是有一個家族像伊斯坦大他們的家族決定他的氏族名要在前面所以他叫伊斯坦大什麼就是這樣所以有很多的狀況可能跟現實"},{"start":341.485,"end":360.715,"text":"你現在就已經舉了兩個例子了所以事實上原民會你們是有方式去調查跟研究的嘛只是只是你們可能沒有把它列為這個實務上面的這個執行方面所以在這邊我要求你兩個月之內跟內政部和戶政司研議你們要提出一些報告好不好"},{"start":361.455,"end":364.398,"text":"在我們並列原住民族文資的選項上面我認為應該要遵循族人的意願"},{"start":373.191,"end":400.93,"text":"中文漢字在前在上還是原住民族的文字在前在上應該要交由族人去選擇不應該為了行政的方便然後各機關都通用把中文的漢字擺在前面原住民族的文字放在後面所以呢原住民的命名的這個指引手冊我們是不是請園民會跟我們的戶政能夠來來做一些參考然後來討論可以嗎"},{"start":404.626,"end":408.549,"text":"原住民族國家語言發展法第一條已經開宗明義地說原住民族語言是國家的語言,因此我們族人就可以使用原住民族的文字作為姓名的登記。"},{"start":428.047,"end":446.824,"text":"既然是國家議員為什麼我們不可以增加單列原住民族文字的選項呢所以我要在這邊請部長還有我們的副主委還有我們的內政部的護政司對不對請你們來尊重一下我們原民會的立場也尊重一下族人立場可以嗎"},{"start":448.396,"end":449.137,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":463.709,"end":491.108,"text":"好來請外交部好我們為了節省時間一邊在行走的過程我就問一下如果我們族人選擇單列原住民族的文字命名我們的護照會不會出現名字跟姓氏顛倒的問題或者是外交部你們怎麼樣來精準的判別哪一個詞是族人的名字還是家族的姓氏您剛剛應該也聽我們副主委還有其他的原住民族的官員在這邊說了自己"},{"start":491.288,"end":498.816,"text":"審查委員的名字其實是有意義的。所以在護照上面的使用,字數有沒有限制?技術上有沒有問題?"},{"start":502.17,"end":530.701,"text":"日報告委員目前護照上的登載方式是依據戶籍資料上的登載對所以你的意思說戶籍資料如果改變的話你們外交部的護照上面也會改變是是好這是需不需要需不需要這個預算的編列讓你們的書寫系統來改變這個軟硬體系統都要改然後可能也要周知國外的各政府機關因為會變成跟我們現在出去的版本長得不太一樣對所以怕避免原住民族出去造成困擾到時候可能這個版本也要周知各國"},{"start":531.401,"end":554.016,"text":"所以今天我們這些版本或是今天修法通過的話,你們就必須要做,對不對?你們沒有意見吧?最後請大家看一下臺北市政府在行政院院會的態度。預期行政院修法支持原住民族單列原住民族文字。所以我也希望中央機關也能夠有這樣的態度。今天看起來大家都是往好的方向。"},{"start":554.716,"end":571.553,"text":"非常感謝大家。是,我跟您報告,剛剛我已經非常明確的表示,這個中央在政策上我們是支持,那也會在執行面上跟相關部會我們來一起討論,然後把這個執行面的部分把它完整的一併做處理,謝謝。"},{"start":572.654,"end":578.415,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra 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個簽調的參考那傳統姓名的部分還沒有?以上目前進度是這樣傳統姓名的部分還沒啦我相信今天為什麼要趁這個機會啦我相信部長也在這啦如果你們原民會然後我們他們鼓勵這個原民去認證這些我相信警政署應該也不會去反對吧"},{"start":203.212,"end":226.319,"text":"委員你剛剛提到有兩個部分,第一個是因為他的這個調回原鄉要這個加分的這個問題,剛剛副主委大概有提到,如果是有取得語言的認證,因為這個有一個資格,然後另外這個有一個門檻,這一部分警政署我會回頭再確認,不過剛剛原民會這邊聽起來是這一部分我們警政署是有把它納入。"},{"start":227.399,"end":243.225,"text":"不過剛剛提到如果說只是改族他的原住民的名字回復傳統的姓名的話這部分警政署可能有一些疑慮就是說他可能有一些道德風險在這邊不不不 這兩個條件是都要的"},{"start":244.372,"end":263.663,"text":"我們那時候講的是兩個條件如果我每個人都去改回去就可以有高積分我覺得這樣也很奇怪我們會後確認完之後再跟委員做回覆好沒關係我只是說這個我已經這個問題我關心很久了所以趁這個機會再問一下好不好好謝謝謝謝謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152022","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152022","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1560fce9e6e156de2a1f61ce136a0fb9155be169921a0a7171a6072d9306be1cd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"09:57:19 - 10:04:24","影片長度":"00:07:05","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai 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Fangas，為什麼？因為我們知道，在當年他們出生的時候，十三、四年前，社會對原民名字的認同還沒有像現在這麼普遍，我們的職棒明星、我們的歌手，大家都用傳統姓名行走在世界上面對自己的族人與世界，但當時需要更多有聲量、有分貝的人率先做這件事，所以我們選擇了用傳統姓名直接幫孩子登記在戶口名簿上，讓他們未來就是這樣知道他是阿美族和漢族的孩子。","可是部長，今天就是要跟您請教，因為我發現我等一下問的問題問原民會是得不到答案的，原來是內政部，為什麼？我要問的問題就是我們命名完成了之後其實會遇到很多現實上的困難，這個困難就是來自於政府機關或公司部門在填名字的時候，電腦欄位字元不夠，這麼簡單的事情，但是就是對我們非常困擾，我有多少次收到衛生局的通知單的時候，你知道我是什麼嗎？我不是Saumah的媽媽、我不是Sauling的媽媽，我是「見記事欄」媽媽，為什麼？因為他的名字填不夠啊！所以當時他在登記的時候，他就寫「見記事欄」的意思是他的名字很長，此人用原住民傳統姓名登記，名字為什麼什麼，這樣才寫得很長嘛！但是他在Excel表格套用的時候，即便連政府機關都沒有辦法去回推，因為他就是啪啪啪電腦打出去嘛！所以我收到了多少張通知單，我叫做「見記事欄」媽媽、「見記事欄」太太，你知道那個心情嗎？所以當時我來的時候請原民會，第一件事情就是我們要恢復鼓勵大家使用傳統姓名，但我們要給他便利性。所以部長，8年後的現在，我終於搞清楚了，這件事情，字元，不管是公部門或者公部門帶頭私部門，你知道嗎？我在填機票、填信用卡的時候都超級難用的，因為字元都不對啊！還有到底什麼是姓、什麼是名。請問，我的問題很單純，內政部戶政司有沒有辦法為我們原住民族人朋友解決這個問題？"],["林部長右昌：是，我非常贊成委員剛剛所提的這樣子的理念……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，但是要有實際操作啊！"],["林部長右昌：是，委員，我跟你報告，我個人認為，其實姓名的認同非常重要，所以剛剛提到的，這個代表了社會的進步還有整個社會文化的提升，所以我非常非常支持也非常贊成我們族人姓名的單列，其他的這些問題跟困難是行政機關要來解決……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，我已經質詢很多次了，老實講。"],["林部長右昌：行政機關要來解決，而且應該要來調整，剛剛提到的字元不夠的問題，我請司長這邊來說明，現在基本上戶役政系統是沒有問題的，字元是可以……"],["蘇委員巧慧：戶役政系統沒有問題，但是要嫁接到其他，而且要能夠通令到大家能夠也是如此做啦！老實說這8年確實有點進步啦！我們也質詢過很多次，包括徐部長，我記得我也有跟他討論過這樣的問題，所以因為時間的關係，第一個、我就是要求內政部的態度，好，部長清楚表態，那剩下就是技術問題，即便是應該要有新增的預算去改變電腦系統，我覺得這件事情都應該做，尤其是公部門帶頭之後私部門才會跟著做，這是第一件事情。","第二件事情，姓名對我們公開來講還有什麼很快會立刻遇到的問題？隱私權保障，部長，你和我如果被show上去在不管看病名單或學校公布欄或任何其他的地方，要有姓名的隱私保障的時候，我們是什麼？我是蘇○慧或者是蘇巧○，你是林○昌或者是之類的，但我的孩子呢？我的孩子就是這樣啊！全部的人有誰不知道這個是我小孩，對不對？看醫生、看病的時候，誰不知道這個是這個？這樣有達到隱私權保障的效果嗎？是不是？我相信如果今天高金委員（我們主席）不是用這個，你是用你的原名的時候，誰不知道這個是你啊？所以這個問題怎麼解決？有沒有人看到這個問題，並且把它列為應該要解決的問題，我認為這也是內政部在鼓勵族人朋友回復傳統姓名的時候應該要去思考的，部長，你同意嗎？"],["林部長右昌：我完全同意，所以剛剛委員提到的這個問題，當然這個涉及個資的部分……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！"],["林部長右昌：不完全是內政部，不過委員提到這個問題，內政部願意來找各部會……"],["蘇委員巧慧：其實因為後來我跟學校溝通，學校就會直接把後面去掉，對不對？那這差別就很大。"],["林部長右昌：我們會找各部會來討論。"],["蘇委員巧慧：對啊！我覺得這是一個觀念，只有公部門率先帶頭實施之後，社會才會上行下效，所以今天特別利用這個時間，藉由部長的回答再讓各界知道我們有這樣的問題，也很感謝政府是肯定的態度，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：是，全力支持。"],["主席：好，非常謝謝阿美族的媳婦巧慧，阿美族的媽媽巧慧。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我不敢說是阿美族的媽媽。"],["主席：阿美族小孩的媽媽。我們希望今天大家在這邊討論這個問題，大家都很肯定，希望在實務上面真的能夠來落實好不好？好，繼續我們請張宏陸委員來質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":72,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-16","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra 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Tahovecahe等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":56.574,"end":71.105,"text":"所以我想是今天我們在處理這個原住民的傳統姓名我自己真的是深切感受我記得我八年前第一次有機會到立法院擔任國會議員的時候對原民會的質詢就是質詢關於名字的部分為什麼?因為我的先生回復了傳統姓名龍南Isaac Farnas"},{"start":77.97,"end":92.817,"text":"我的女兒兩個從出生就是用傳統姓名命名Sau Ma Su Fangas Saolin Su Fangas為什麼?因為我們知道在當年他們出生的時候十幾年前十三、四年前社會對原名認同"},{"start":93.797,"end":106.161,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":121.727,"end":125.712,"text":"可是部長今天就是要跟您請教了因為我發現過往我等一下要問的問題問原民會是得不到答案的原來是內政部為什麼我要問的問題其實就是我們命名完成了之後呢其實會遇到很多現實上的困難"},{"start":138.989,"end":160.82,"text":"這個困難就是來自於政府機關或公司部門在填名字的時候那個電腦欄位資源不夠這麼簡單的事情但是就是對我們非常困擾我有多少次我收到衛生局的通知單的時候你知道我是什麼嗎我不是掃帽的媽媽我不是掃令的媽媽我是見記事欄媽媽"},{"start":166.412,"end":192.063,"text":"因為他的名字填不夠啊所以當時他在登記的時候他就寫建記式欄的意思是他的名字很長齁此人用原住民傳統姓名登記名字為什麼什麼什麼這才寫得很長嘛但是他在Excel表格套用的時候即便連政府機關他都沒有辦法去回推因為他就是啪啪啪電腦打出去嘛所以我收到了多少張通知單我叫做建記式欄媽媽"},{"start":194.384,"end":213.149,"text":"姓名條例第三條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":223.916,"end":243.516,"text":"請問,我的問題很單純,內政部護政司有沒有辦法為我們原住民族人朋友解決這個問題?是,我非常贊成委員剛剛所提的這樣子的一個理念。是,當然但是還有實際操作啊。是,委員我跟您報告,其實我個人認為,"},{"start":245.137,"end":267.73,"text":"其實姓名的認同其實非常的重要所以剛剛在提到其實這個代表了社會的一個進步還有一個整個社會文化的一個提升所以我非常非常支持也非常贊成我們族人這個姓名的一個單列其他的這些問題跟困難是行政機關要來解決我已經質詢很多次了行政機關要來解決而且應該要來調整"},{"start":271.952,"end":294.037,"text":"那剛剛提到的資源不夠的一個問題我請那個司長這邊來說明現在基本上護意證系統是沒有問題的護意證系統沒有問題但是要嫁接到其他而且要能夠通令到大家能夠也是如此做啦老實說這8年確實有點進步啦那我們也質詢過很多次包括徐部長我記得我有跟他討論過這樣的問題好那所以因為時間的關係第一個就是要求內政部的態度好部長清楚表態那剩下就是技術問題"},{"start":300.498,"end":314.654,"text":"即便是應該有新增的預算去改變電腦系統我覺得這件事情都應該做尤其是公部門帶頭之後私部門才會跟著做這是第一件事情第二件事情姓名對我們公開來講還有什麼很快會立刻遇到的問題隱私權保障"},{"start":316.696,"end":340.108,"text":"不讓你和我如果被秀上去在不管是看病名單或學校公布欄或任何其他地方要有姓名的隱私保障的時候我們是什麼我說書圈會嘛或者是書橋圈嘛你是林圈倉嘛或者是之類的但我的孩子呢我的孩子就是這樣啊全部的人有誰不知道這個是這個是我的小孩對不對那看醫生看病的時候誰不知道這個是這個"},{"start":346.363,"end":356.225,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":375.547,"end":391.155,"text":"我完全同意,所以剛剛委員提到的這個問題,當然這個涉及各職的部份,不完全是內政部,不過委員提到這個問題,內政部願意來跟找各部門的討論。其實後來我跟學校溝通,學校就會直接把後面直接去掉嘛。"},{"start":392.755,"end":418.127,"text":"對,這差別就很大。我們會找各部會來討論。對啊,我覺得這是一個觀念,那只有公部門率先帶頭實施之後,那社會才會上行下效。所以今天替我特別利用這個時間,藉由部長的回答,在讓各界知道我們有這樣的問題,也知道很感謝政府是肯定的態度。是,全力支持。好,非常謝謝這個阿美族的媳婦喬惠,然後阿美族的媽媽喬惠。"},{"start":421.757,"end":423.321,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具、「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"152012","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152012","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db191afc221b390a849a1f61ce136a0fb9155be169921a0a71711b1cec9fb31ec975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"09:45:02 - 09:48:50","影片長度":"00:03:48","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；上開議案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-16"},"duration":228,"end_time":"2024-05-02T09:48:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:45:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.624718750000001,"end":8.637218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.852218750000002,"end":15.825968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.73721875,"end":20.027843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.70284375,"end":22.67721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.74034375,"end":35.99159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.81846875,"end":40.564718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.37471875,"end":44.39534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.766593750000006,"end":48.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.01909375,"end":53.322218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.963468750000004,"end":57.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.09784375,"end":66.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.97409375000001,"end":70.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.26034375,"end":75.22596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.52971875,"end":80.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.01409375,"end":115.25346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.92846875000001,"end":116.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.07596875,"end":134.28846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.86221875,"end":152.49659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.17159375,"end":178.46721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":178.99034375000002,"end":181.60596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.02784375000002,"end":194.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.49409375000002,"end":219.87846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.89284375000003,"end":209.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.63346875000002,"end":224.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.97471875000002,"end":225.48096875000002}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.37,"end":22.303,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第二條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":24.147,"end":35.545,"text":"在這邊做提案說明台灣原住民族從過去登記無異議的漢姓漢名就失去了我們自己的名字也失去了我們的族譜"},{"start":37.317,"end":52.907,"text":"從元韻前輩1995年還我姓名運動開始後來成功爭取了修正姓名條例可以用中文譯音來登記傳統姓名但是仍然造成了許多不正確讀音的困擾"},{"start":54.268,"end":70.385,"text":"隨後在2001年、2003年通過修正,讓原住民在身份證上可以用原住民族文字來並列傳統姓名,算是立下了還我姓名運動的一個里程碑。"},{"start":71.306,"end":86.738,"text":"不過在2017年如剛才趙薇所說的原住民族語言發展法跟2019年公佈施行的國家語言發展法國家已經在法律上面肯認了原住民族文字為國家的語言"},{"start":87.498,"end":115.016,"text":"因此,我在2020年進入立法院的4年多以來,透過提案、質詢總共11次,要求必須修正姓名條例,讓原住民可以單列族名來作為身份登記,不需要受限於現行規定要以詞源、詞海、康熙等通用字典或教育部編定的國語字典中所列的文字來作為姓名登記文字。"},{"start":115.967,"end":133.929,"text":"很振奮在2022年的4月1日原住民身份法已經由憲法法庭判決確認違憲必須修正讓身份證上取用漢人姓氏並列傳統姓名羅馬拼音者也能夠取得原住民身份"},{"start":134.77,"end":136.571,"text":"四條的修正條文並新增第一條修正動議。我的修正重點摘要如下。"},{"start":153.237,"end":178.031,"text":"第二條修正,臺灣原住民使用傳統姓名辦理戶籍登記,申請規劃或護照,不限於取用中文姓名,使用中文文字,得選擇使用原住民族文字,也就是單列族名登記。第一條,基於姓名權的橫評考量,修法前才以漢名並列傳統姓名登記的。"},{"start":179.071,"end":194.5,"text":"以中譯並列傳統姓名登記的或以漢名登記而於修法後改以單列傳統姓名登記的均得原引本條例第9條之改名次數規定回復傳統姓名以三次為限。"},{"start":195.561,"end":219.146,"text":"第四條為體系一貫明文規範臺灣原住民使用中文傳統姓名或漢人姓名者得使用傳統姓名的羅馬拼音或原住民族文字並列登記也就是說漢名傳統姓名原住民族文字並列登記那以上呢是我的提案說明懇請各位立委以及行政機關予以支持謝謝"},{"start":221.687,"end":224.78,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai 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Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。七、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正"},{"start":104.558,"end":130.282,"text":"用訴訟為自己來爭取權益,因此為全體原住民族的權利本席正式提案修法。明文的規範可以單列原住民族的名字作為姓名的登記,這讓我們的族人不再陷入單打獨鬥又廢日礦時的訴訟過程,同時也可以讓我們的族人找回自己的文化,"},{"start":130.822,"end":143.989,"text":"也依循自己的文化慣俗為自己為下一代來命名由我們自己來決定我們想要的樣子我請在場的委員還有機關能夠支持本席的提案謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152094","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152094","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1643519c25cbe3c73a1f61ce136a0fb9155be169921a0a71727203159f7e46c805ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe","委員發言時間":"11:43:25 - 11:53:20","影片長度":"00:09:55","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；上開議案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-16"},"duration":595,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:53:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:43:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":671,"blocks":[["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：（11時43分）謝謝主席，有請內政部及原民會。"],["主席：請部長跟谷縱副主委。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：部長好、副主委好。djavadjavai（你好）、sabaw（你好），我還是要講一下我的族語，因為我們萬山是瀕危語族，這個語言很少人會講，藉著立法院的質詢臺，我希望把這個聲音能夠讓大家聽到。","Saidhailrao, icongoonganomi.（我是Saidhai，謝謝你們。）'ina mene'a toromorolrao maraveravere miki 'ina'i,（今天我很高興在這裡，）paoriki 'ina'i alraceta（為了我們的名字）我是說我非常的高興，今天能夠在這個地方來談我們的名字，所以我要特別謝謝召委今天能夠排審姓名條例，非常感激。也非常感激剛才在我們前面的報告已經聽到內政部部長親口，就是不斷地說，很支持我們單列族語拼音，在這邊敬表感謝。","我要在這邊講的就是說，其實部長，我滿感謝您，因為你是一個勇於任事的政務官，像一年前剛好5月3號，我那個時候就是提到原住民要的反歧視法或族群平等法，是不是可以請你來支持，你當時非常肯定地說，今年（2024年）院版一定會拿出來，所以我在這邊非常感謝。我也要讓您瞭解關於我們的單列族語姓名，我過去在內政委員會歷經11次這個主題的質詢，一直到去年選舉期間大家都很忙，那個時候是我們的次長列席，我還是質詢這個問題，當時他說要一步一步設法把它完成，我是說不要一步一步啦，後來12月11號，去年12月11號是您來備詢，您很肯定地說同意支持，只是很可惜，到下午審查的時候，怎麼又變成沒成功，內政部、原民會沒有予以同意，所以我今天才會說非常感謝召委今天又再次排審。","過去我每次問的時候大概是兩個問題，第一個問題就是老是回答說「哎呀，羅馬拼音國人認識不足啦」，但我們說都已經在雙語化，我們的孩子從國小就學英文，你不會，你要學啊，你不能阻止我啊，這是我的人格權、姓名權啊，你要學啊。第二個是說，我們的系統不能配合，我說那就編經費趕快去處理啊。所以今天又來到這裡，2024年5月，請問部長，請問原民會副主委，我們又再度提出這樣一個排審的版本，審查的時候，部長，您會支持嗎？"],["林部長右昌：我剛剛已經一再的說明，也在我們的書面報告裡面有提到，我們支持而且贊成這樣子的一個主張。另外，我個人也一直強調，其實這是一個讓族群之間能夠平等，然後大家可以更進一步彼此認識、瞭解，因為這樣子才可以消除一切的歧視，或者是消除一切因為誤解、不瞭解所產生的這些誤會，我覺得這是臺灣社會文明進步很重要的一步，所以我全力的來贊成跟支持。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：謝謝，全力的贊成、支持，非常謝謝部長。"],["林部長右昌：至於你剛剛提到的相關的一些技術性，或者是相關的一些行政上面應該改的措施，我們會跟原民會，還有其他部會，大家一起來商議，把這些行政措施予以精進，以及把它改善。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝支持，但是我還是要把這個歷史沉痾稍微交代一下，各位可以看一下，我們就是因為在1946年公布施行的臺灣省人民回復原有姓名辦法，把我們改為漢姓，其實16個族群他們被命名的方式、被改的方式都不一樣，以我自己部落來講，我的祖父，他們家有六個兄弟姐妹，被冠上六個不同的姓。所以這個就是我講的，我們就失去了我們的族譜，這個是很辛苦的一件事情。很多也不雅啊，像那個什麼，我們排灣族有一個名字叫Tapunpun，結果被翻譯成打笨笨，我覺得在身分證上面寫下這種不雅的名字，真的是很辛苦。我們也有一個議員，他已經是議員喔，他叫Cemelesai Ljaljegan，他已經是議員，可是其他的議員經常都稱呼他11個名字的、11個字的議員。所以這個部分我們很高興今天聽到，我們終於可以回復單列族名。","在這個過程當中，我覺得最重要的是因為國家語言發展法通過之後，已經肯認我們的原住民族文字，所以我們有權利做這樣的一個要求，但是我這個地方還是要提醒一件事，我要提醒什麼呢？部長，更名跟回復是一樣的事情嗎？我要回復我的姓名，跟我改名是一樣的事情嗎？"],["林部長右昌：這個當然是不一樣。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，那很好，因為我們原民會有一個處長叫羅文敏，這是他的漢字漢名，那他改名叫赫踛基祐，但是他又再改了一次，假設叫羅赫踛基祐，然後赫踛基祐。現在如果我們通過了之後，按照我們現在的姓名條例，現行條文第一條第二項的規定是「均以一次為限」喔，所以我在這邊要請教部長跟副主委的是，單列族名是否視為回復傳統姓名？您剛才已經說不一樣。另外，我就是要問說，如果這樣的一個草案通過之後，我們要確認，有很多像羅處長這種的，因為之前沒有改，後來改來改去，已經改很多次了，結果即便修法通過之後，他可能已經沒有機會再回復、再更名。所以我在這個地方就是特別談，我有提修正動議，就是希望能夠幫助他們免於這樣，因為連我們之前處理雅美族、達悟族的部分，都已經可以申請改名無次數限制了，所以這個部分我要特別提醒。","最後，主席再給我問一個問題，我剛剛有講了，過去我有提醒，內政部也回覆我了，說會編列經費去處理資訊中心的、戶政司的、移民署的、地政司的，這整個系統，當時是說要請原民會編列。已經過了兩年，我想問原民會經費編列跟辦理的情形，然後也要問內政部，修法之後，各部會轄管登記文件能不能夠同時搭配上路？"],["林部長右昌：委員，你剛剛是不是回到你前面的那一張圖？"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，請簡單回答。"],["林部長右昌：委員提到單列族名是否可以視為回復傳統姓名，剛剛我們跟原民會談過，這個是沒有問題的，當然可以視為回復傳統姓名。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我們要保障，因為很多人已經喪失好幾次了。"],["林部長右昌：是，是。那是否還能登記改名？可以的。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["林部長右昌：就是說，這個不會受到那個一次、三次的限制。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：另外，下面那一題，在執行面上，內政部所轄管的部分，我們已經做了相關的行政的討論，所以在戶役政的部分，我們在欄位等各方面，已經做了準備，沒有問題，但是這個牽扯到的面向可能還不只是包括身分證，或者是包括戶政、地政、移民這些部分，可能還會包括外交部，還有交通部的駕照、健保局的健保卡等等，會牽扯到全面的，這些更名所產生的影響。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：你有編列經費嗎？"],["林部長右昌：其他的部會可能沒有，我們的部分是把軟硬體做了一些改善。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好。"],["林部長右昌：但這個需要時間再進一步跟各部會做跨部會的協調，這個到時候我也會跟院來做報告。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，謝謝部長。","再問副主委，兩年了。"],["主席：副主委，你來回答。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：我想，這個部分，有關於系統更改需求的經費，我們在111年8月召開各部會的協商，整體中央部會所需的經費大概兩億一千多萬，其中內政部的部分就是剛剛部長講的，大概有一億多，所以其他部會都是有經費的，所以我們是協調由各部會針對這個系統就可以去做修改。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：好，我們是希望同步上路，就是修法通過之後，我們希望同步上路，我想在這個地方特別再一次謝謝召委，也謝謝部長，謝謝原民會，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝Saidhai委員的質詢，謝謝部長，謝謝谷縱．喀勒芳安副主委。待會我有一些附帶決議，也希望他們能夠來解決處理這個事情。","繼續我們請徐欣瑩。徐欣瑩、徐欣瑩委員不在。","黃仁、黃仁、黃仁委員不在。","邱志偉、邱志偉、邱志偉委員不在。","楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","陳冠廷、陳冠廷、陳冠廷委員不在。","蔡易餘、蔡易餘、蔡易餘委員不在。","游顥、游顥、游顥委員不在。","林倩綺、林倩綺、林倩綺委員不在。","登記發言的委員，除了不在場者之外，其餘都已經發言完畢，詢答結束。","委員徐欣瑩、張智倫所提的書面質詢，列入紀錄，刊登公報。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":72,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-16","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","張智倫","黃仁","林倩綺"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 等21人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe\n等16人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.30909375,"end":6.342218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.0934687499999995,"end":7.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.539718750000002,"end":14.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.759093750000002,"end":12.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.285968750000002,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.17596875,"end":21.88409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.32284375,"end":26.22096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.33909375,"end":29.34284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.84909375,"end":30.777218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.620968750000003,"end":32.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.869718750000004,"end":35.282843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.67096875,"end":37.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.78034375,"end":38.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.69159375,"end":54.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.75659375,"end":67.53096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":67.96971875,"end":70.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.24346875,"end":73.97721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":74.66909375,"end":80.76096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.99721875,"end":87.13971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.62909375000001,"end":89.50221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":89.85659375,"end":93.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.10909375,"end":103.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.87971875000001,"end":108.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.79034375,"end":110.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":111.23721875000001,"end":118.62846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.93221875,"end":124.43346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.72034375000001,"end":128.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.83784375000002,"end":129.90096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.37346875,"end":137.02221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.37659375,"end":141.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.57846875,"end":144.56534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":144.88596875000002,"end":155.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.14596875,"end":166.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":167.07659375,"end":177.69096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":178.09596875,"end":185.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.77409375000002,"end":196.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.76534375,"end":188.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":193.63784375,"end":193.95846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.95846875,"end":194.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":197.08034375000003,"end":200.30346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":200.62409375000001,"end":209.63534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.92221875,"end":216.58784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.92159375,"end":213.93846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.58784375000002,"end":216.85784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.75659375,"end":223.35471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":220.75596875000002,"end":221.75159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.98346875000001,"end":225.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.70909375000002,"end":237.19221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":227.64096875,"end":228.21471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":230.71221875,"end":231.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.01596875,"end":231.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.87221875,"end":232.93971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.93971875000003,"end":232.95659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.34409375,"end":241.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":237.42846875,"end":237.98534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.96784375000001,"end":257.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":258.35346875,"end":261.72846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":262.38659375000003,"end":264.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":264.64784375,"end":269.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.06471875,"end":272.81534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.83221875000004,"end":275.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":275.36346875000004,"end":279.16034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":279.81846875,"end":287.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.53034375000004,"end":289.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.46659375,"end":305.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":305.33346875,"end":309.75471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":310.02471875000003,"end":311.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.40846875,"end":311.44221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":311.52659375,"end":325.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.44846875,"end":337.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":338.39159375,"end":338.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.97784375000003,"end":340.6865937500000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Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":54.701,"end":73.681,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第二條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":74.722,"end":98.449,"text":"我那個時候就是提到原住民要的反歧視法或族群平等法是不是可以請你來支持你當時非常肯定的說今年2024年院版一定會拿出來所以我在這邊非常感謝那我也要讓您了解關於我們的單列族與姓名我過去在內政委員會歷經11次這個主題的一個質詢"},{"start":103.951,"end":127.9,"text":"那麼一直到去年選舉期間大家都很忙那個時候是我們的次長那我還是質詢這個問題當時說要一步一步設法把它完成那我是說不要一步一步啦後來12月11號去年12月11號是您來備詢那您很肯定的說同意支持"},{"start":128.9,"end":140.45,"text":"只是很可惜,到下午的審查的時候,怎麼又變成沒成功,內政部原民會沒有予以同意。」所以我今天才說非常感謝趙偉今天又再次排審。那過去我每次問的時候大概是兩個問題。第一個問題就是老師回答說,哎呀羅馬拼音,國人認識不足啦。那我們說都已經在雙語化,我們的孩子從國小就學英文。"},{"start":155.382,"end":161.948,"text":"第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":171.497,"end":190.86,"text":"所以今天又來到這裡2024年5月請問部長請問人民會副主委我們又再度提出這樣的一個排審的版本那審查的時候部長您會支持嗎我剛剛已經一再的說明也在我們的書面報告裡面也提到"},{"start":191.54,"end":212.902,"text":"我們支持而且贊成這樣子的一個主張因為我個人也一直強調其實這是一個讓族群之間能夠平等然後大家可以更進一步彼此認識瞭解因為這樣子才可以消除一切的歧視或者是說消除一切的誤解"},{"start":213.983,"end":236.593,"text":"不瞭解所產生的這些誤會。」我覺得這是臺灣社會文明進步很重要的一步所以我全力的來贊成跟支持所以你剛剛提到的相關的一些技術性或者是相關的一些行政上面應該改的措施我們會跟原民會還有其他部會大家一起來商議"},{"start":237.453,"end":253.03,"text":"二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":259.917,"end":278.754,"text":"其實16個族群其實他被命名的方式被改的方式都不一樣那以我自己部落來講我的祖父他們家有6個兄弟姊妹被冠上6個不同的姓所以這個就是我講的我們就失去了我們的族譜"},{"start":279.835,"end":282.92,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具、「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具"},{"start":291.23,"end":300.077,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具、「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":310.606,"end":338.501,"text":"11個字的議員。」所以這個部分我們很高興今天聽到我們終於可以回復我們單列族名那在這個過程當中我覺得最重要的是因為國家語言發展法通過之後已經肯認我們的原住民族文字所以我們有權利做這樣的一個要求但是我這個地方還是要提醒一件事我要提醒什麼呢部長"},{"start":340.011,"end":347.846,"text":"更名跟回覆是一樣的事情嗎?我要回覆我的姓名跟我改名是一樣的事情嗎?"},{"start":350.777,"end":370.231,"text":"這個當然是不一樣對那很好因為以我們原名會有一個處長叫羅文明那這是他的漢名漢字那他改名叫賀路基佑但是呢他又再改了一次假設叫羅賀路基佑然後賀路基佑"},{"start":370.891,"end":372.613,"text":"現行條文第一條及第二項是均以一次為限。單列族名是否視為回復傳統姓名?"},{"start":389.514,"end":394.816,"text":"第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八"},{"start":410.003,"end":414.185,"text":"在更名,所以我在這個地方就是特別談我有做修正動議就是希望能夠幫助他們免於這樣因為連我們的之前處理亞美族達物族他都已經可以申請改名無次數限制了所以這個部分我要特別做一個提醒那最後一個主席再給我問一個問題因為我剛剛有講啦過去我有提醒"},{"start":436.474,"end":450.104,"text":"就是內政部也回覆我了說會編列經費去處理這些資訊中心的護證師的移民署的地政司整個系統那麼就是當時是說要請原民會編啦已經過了兩年我想問原民會你們經費編列跟辦理的情形然後也要問內政部修法之後各部會小管登記文件能不能夠同時的搭配上路"},{"start":465.791,"end":478.938,"text":"委員你剛剛是不是回到你剛剛簡報的前面的那一張圖對我想你提到的在前面在前面在前面就是剛剛第一個那個姓名OK剛剛那個下一頁"},{"start":481.2,"end":484.743,"text":"委員提到單列族名是否可以視為回復傳統姓名?是否還能登記改名?是否還能登記改名?"},{"start":507.004,"end":530.121,"text":"在執行面上我們內政部所轄管的部分我們已經做了相關的一個行政的一個討論所以在互譯證的部分我們這個是欄位各方面我們已經做了準備沒有問題但是這個牽扯到的這個面向可能還不只是包括身份證或者說包括戶證、地證、移民的這些部分它可能還會包括像外交部還有交通部的駕照"},{"start":530.922,"end":539.36,"text":"二、姓名條例第三條及第四條及第四條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八"},{"start":541.894,"end":568.002,"text":"其他的部會可能沒有,我們的部分是把這個軟硬體做了一些改善,但這個需要時間再進一步跟科部會、跨部會的一個協調。這個到時候我也會跟院來做報告。謝謝部長。副主委,兩年了。我想這個部分有關於系統更改需求的經費,我們在110年8月、111年8月有召開各部會的協商。那大概整體中央部會所需的經費大概兩億一千多萬。"},{"start":568.782,"end":585.315,"text":"其中內政部就大概跟部長講大概有1億多所以其他部會都即使經費都蠻少所以我們是協調是由各部會針對這個系統我們是希望同步上路啊就是修法通過之後我們希望同步上路我想在這個地方特別再一次謝謝昭緯也謝謝部長謝謝袁銘慧謝謝好謝謝災災委員的這個質詢謝謝部長謝謝股東副主委待會我有一些附帶決議也希望他們能夠來解決"}]}},{"id":"152093","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152093","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db132cf2a68c9a2bdf6a1f61ce136a0fb9155be169921a0a717d62f1d0114869a9f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"丁學忠","委員發言時間":"11:36:59 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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；上開議案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-16"},"duration":376,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:43:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:36:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":646,"blocks":[["丁委員學忠：（11時36分）感謝主席、各位委員同仁，請部長。"],["主席：有請部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好！"],["丁委員學忠：部長辛苦你了。"],["林部長右昌：不會，謝謝。"],["丁委員學忠：去年我們有發生一場火災，損失了4位消防人員，那時候他們有要求政府，他們有3個訴求：「固職安、要工安、組工會」，對於他們爭取要成立工會的部分，我知道公務人員不可以組織工會，因為這樣會有罷工權，這點很嚴重，但是當時部長曾經承諾過他們，為了提升他們的權利，我們會逐步的增加團體協會的權利，提高消防員的安全保障，目前這部分的進度為何？"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員的垂詢，因為今天消防署沒有到現場，不過這大概有幾個方向，第一個，職安、工安的部分，我們已經有研議相關的草案，我們會在消防法裡專設有關職安的專章，這部分已經完成。另外，有關放寬團體的組成，這部分也已經做了處理，以上簡單的跟你說明。"],["丁委員學忠：消防員雖然是公務人員，其實他們跟一般的公務人員不同，一般的公務人員很多都是坐在辦公室裡，但是他們不同，他們出去都是用性命在保護我們，所以這個部分請部長因為你好像只剩十幾天的任期就要高就了，希望這個政策可以延續下去。"],["林部長右昌：對於照顧公務同仁，我想政府絕對是毫無疑問、不遺餘力，如果還有一些地方可以再進階，我們一定會加強和努力。剛才委員特別提到，其實我們有很多同仁在執行相關勤務時都是出生入死，當然包含消防同仁，其實警察也一樣，甚至包括空勤總隊、救難相關人員，大家都很努力，他們的一些權益我們都會支持和照顧。"],["丁委員學忠：對啊，空勤總隊也有在反映一些事情，他們在非故意的狀況下執行勤務所發生的一些危險，是不是可以除罪化，他們也在期待政府可以重視這個問題。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["丁委員學忠：剛才我剛好在辦公室接到彰化的代表會打電話給我建議，我們現在針對里長的年終慰問金有編列預算，感謝政府照顧到地方里長，但是代表和議員的部分呢？現在針對議員的事務費，議員的部分是從9,000提高到2萬，代表的部分是從3,000提高到5,000，是不是？有一些代表在反映，對他們來說，從事為民服務工作，這樣的金額似乎少了點，是不是我們可以再研議一下再來提高金額？"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告，這是內政部，我們針對好幾個部分，包括直轄市的議員、非直轄市的議員，另外還有村里長。另外就是還有包括鄉鎮市區民代表的部分，你剛剛提到的應該是為民服務費，不是補助費。"],["丁委員學忠：對，為民服務費。"],["林部長右昌：它是為民服務費，我們的版本原本，他們現行大概是每個月3,000元，我們是酌予調升，現在我們的版本是調高到5,000元，這個是行政的版本，當然其實還有很多委員，我印象應該有三十幾個版本，到時候送到大院來的時候，我想可以做進一步的討論。"],["丁委員學忠：大家可以再檢討一下，過去我也是從代表做起的，那時候我的為民服務費就是3,000元，但我記得要包白包給喪家時，還要拿單子請他們簽名、簽收，那時候我們要請領這筆錢是必須這樣做的，但包一次就沒了啊，如果說可以一直包、一直請款，去請人家簽收，當然沒關係，但後來我們根本不好意思叫人家簽收，連那3,000元就用其他方式去做核銷。其實大家都是在為民服務啦，有時候我們這些民意代表，基層的民意代表，其實光是包這些紅白包，他們一個月的薪水就不夠了，我們如果有辦法再增加一些預算來幫他們彌補一些，對他們來說，這也是一個很大的幫忙。"],["林部長右昌：是，尊重委員的意見，不過我們行政機關在思考的時候，我們要考慮到它的一個衡平。"],["丁委員學忠：對，再納入考量一下。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["丁委員學忠：再麻煩部長。"],["林部長右昌：到時候大院審查的時候再做討論。"],["丁委員學忠：好，謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員。"],["主席：非常謝謝丁學忠委員的質詢，謝謝，謝謝部長。","繼續請伍麗華委員（Saidhai委員）質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":72,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-16","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra 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不會 謝謝在去年我們有發生一場火災損失了四位消防人員當時他們就組織起來要求政府有三個訴求顧職安、邀工安、組工會"},{"start":29.525,"end":46.222,"text":"二、審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":50.527,"end":67.945,"text":"要為提升他們的團體權益,我們要來逐步增加團體協會的權利,增加提高消防員的安全保障這些要求。目前的進度是怎樣?"},{"start":70.015,"end":91.285,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":96.908,"end":116.83,"text":"團體的一個組成,這一部分也已經做了處理,以上簡單跟你做說明。對,消防員他雖然是公務人員,他其實他跟一般的公務人員不同,一般的公務人員才會去辦公室,但是他們有工,他們處理就是用信念去保護我們。"},{"start":118.271,"end":130.975,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":327.84,"end":344.608,"text":"二、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":345.788,"end":353.354,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例第二條及第〉二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":369.667,"end":372.433,"text":"非常謝謝丁薛忠委員的質詢。謝謝。謝謝部長。繼續我們請伍麗華委員、Saidhai委員質詢。"}]}},{"id":"152077","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152077","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db19473acfe56238a55a1f61ce136a0fb9155be169921a0a71732fe7fe4339727175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw委員：去年我們針對姓名條例，因為112年臺北高等行政法院的這個判決非常非常的重要，原住民之所以可以被判決勝訴，就是因為前面、第一個，姓名條例在我當公務員的時候，在我還是處長的時候就曾協調、拜託，甚至是拜託立法委員同意傳統名字可以用羅馬拼音，這是第一步，這是我當處長時做的事。我當立委之後，我也堅持原住民族語言發展法第一條的第一句話要用「原住民族語言是國家語言」，基本上，這個判決最重要的就是原住民族的語言是國家的語言，這是臺北高等行政法院的判決和今年臺北市相關的判決。這個部分我是講給谷縱和公務人員聽，對的、應該的事就要堅持。","有了這個判決之後，部長，當時我就曾拜託部長透過解釋，因為當時沒有解釋，你們要解釋很多案例，像後來你們有解釋雅美族改名不受一次的限制，對不對？有了這個判決，我們就可以透過解釋，因為這也是一種立法技術，原住民族基本法第三十條本來只有一項，後來立法院的原住民立委增加了第二項，所以現在已經可以依照原住民族基本法的原則去解釋。","好，這個判決出來後已經過了這麼久，113年1月11日臺北高等行政法院又做了判決，所以這個部分政府機關可以做的應該要趕快做，在這樣的情形下，很謝謝召委今天排審，希望內政部及相關部會可以給予最大的支持，這裡面有一些到底是要用「臺灣原住民族」？還是「臺灣原住民」？因為臺灣原住民族才是一個正式的文句，有完整的把它都納進去。傳統名字、傳統姓名，事實上，我們原住民就只有名字而已，原住民身分法就是用名字，原住民身分法也是我當處長時提出來的，當初行政院開會時討論到底是要用姓名，還是名字，我堅持要用名字。我到了立法院後也是一樣，要尊重原住民用名字，所以這個部分不要再拘泥於那個，你們要尊重原住民，事實上，原住民只有名字，為什麼這裡面還要包含其他的？譬如羅馬拼音、原住民的文字，因為我們還有其他的少數民族，他們也會用羅馬拼音，所以這不是只針對原住民。為什麼姓名條例一開始的條文要用羅馬拼音？這是考慮到除了原住民之外，我們還有其他的少數民族，所以2個都可以一起放、不排斥，所以部長和戶政司要考量我們所提的版本、文字和用詞，因為這些我們都有考量到，最起碼我都有做相關的考量，部長，因為你們今天的報告對此有一些意見，你可以表達一下嗎？"],["林部長右昌：委員，基本上，這幾個提案我們都尊重、也支持，不過你剛才特別提到的，就是有關臺灣原住民修正為「臺灣原住民族」，這部分我們也是尊重和支持。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：另外，你提到包含「姓名」、「姓氏」以及「名字」的部分，因為姓名條例是一個較寬的法律，所以剛才提到的部分其實這裡面就可以得到處理，所以我們建議原住民沒有姓氏可以僅登記名字，其實這個現行條文就可以把它包納進來，這沒有問題。其餘的部分，基本上，我們都是表達尊重和贊成的意思，謝謝。"],["鄭天財Sra Kacaw委員：基本上是這樣，因為我們已經習慣姓和名在一起，為什麼原住民身分法不寫姓名，只寫傳統名字？其實這有它的根據，這個我們在逐條時可以再做討論，以上，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：是，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝鄭天財委員長期以來對原住民法律案的努力，非常謝謝您！謝謝！順便跟大家說明一下，高金素梅能夠恢復原住民籍、泰雅族的身分，再次謝謝鄭天財委員當時在做公務人員時提醒了我們的召委和主委，所以高金素梅才得以恢復泰雅族的身分，謝謝您！我們一直努力的在往這條路邁進，謝謝。","繼續請丁學忠委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":72,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-16","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","張智倫","黃仁","林倩綺"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 等21人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai 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及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八"},{"start":227.329,"end":253.685,"text":"當初在行政院開會的時候到底要用姓名還是名字我堅持用名字到了立法院也是一樣尊重了所以用名字所以這個部分不要再激擬尊重原住民事實上就是名字那為什麼這裡面還要包含其他的"},{"start":255.063,"end":280.518,"text":"二、審查委員彭博鑫等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員彭博鑫等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八"},{"start":283.693,"end":309.792,"text":"所以我們兩個可以都一起放不排斥所以這個部分也要跟部長還有這個副政司你們這個在考量這些我們所提的版本的文字或者是他用詞我們都有我啦最起碼我啦我都有去做相關的考量"},{"start":310.982,"end":316.132,"text":"部長,因為你們今天的報告裡面有一些意見,可以表達一下嗎?"},{"start":317.918,"end":342.554,"text":"委員基本上這個我們幾個提案我們其實基本上都是尊重然後也支持相關的一個提案不過你剛剛特別提到的有關於臺灣原住民修正為臺灣原住民族的部分那我們這部分我們也是尊重跟支持那另外是你有提到包括姓名姓氏跟這個姓名姓氏及名字的部分"},{"start":343.374,"end":368.787,"text":"因為這個姓名條例它是一個比較寬的一個法律所以剛剛提到的部分其實在這裡面就可以得到處理我們是建議這一部分這個原住民沒有姓氏可以僅登記名字在現在的現行條文裡面其實就可以把它包納進來也沒有問題那其餘的部分基本上我們都是表達這個尊重以及一個贊成的一個意思謝謝基本上是這樣"},{"start":369.915,"end":390.785,"text":"二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"}]}},{"id":"152076","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152076","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1e03af105c5f18cfba1f61ce136a0fb9155be169921a0a71766d4deb5ed01280b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"11:22:14 - 11:29:31","影片長度":"00:07:17","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；上開議案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-16"},"duration":437,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:29:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:22:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":589,"blocks":[["牛委員煦庭：（11時22分）謝謝主席！有請部長和戶政司長。"],["主席：請部長和代理戶政司長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好！"],["牛委員煦庭：部長，早安！有關今天的會議討論、姓名條例的修法，針對原住民單列傳統姓名或名字，因為有些人只有名字，他沒有姓氏的概念，內政部表示除了法律用字上待斟酌之外，其餘部分予以尊重，這應該沒有什麼爭議性，我們希望能夠儘快通過。修法的重點在於確認原住民可以用原住民的文字，目前是用羅馬拼音的方式來呈現，單列所謂的傳統姓名或名字，也就是不強制一定要用漢字和傳統姓名一起的方式，按照憲法法庭針對憲法第十條所做出的判決意旨：「傳統姓名是原住民族彰顯族群認同的特別權利，原住民族語言發展法也明訂原住民族語言是我們的國家語言，書寫系統用羅馬拼音是原住民族的文字，所以單列羅馬拼音為傳統姓名對原民的姓名權、人格權和國家語言平等權具有高度的相關性，而且也有絕對的正當性」。","我們要暫時花一點點時間向很多倡議者，甚至是用打官司的方式來爭取姓名條例通過的人致敬，這有非常多人，其實我有一點點小遺憾，因為對於羅馬拼音，我沒有辦法精準的來發音，這也跟我們待會的題目有關，但是不管怎樣，我們還是把他們列出來，我們要向這些爭取單列傳統姓名的原住民朋友致敬，他們用法律的方式爭取自己的權益，才有了今天姓名條例的修正。","好，問題來了，修法過後勢必有更多的原住民朋友會用羅馬拼音來單列他的姓名，部長，這個怎麼唸？"],["林部長右昌：委員，跟你報告，我剛才也有回答其他的委員，這個必須我們大家一起共同來學習。未來包括行政院的系統，或者是所有的大社會平臺，其實我覺得這是非常重要的一步，因為這個對於促進族群間的彼此認識和瞭解，特別包括文化和習俗，這有非常正面的態度。"],["牛委員煦庭：是，有積極的意義。好，你後面這位救援已經出現了，來，我們請原民會副主委，這是學習的機會，本席也要學習一下，要不然我也唸不清楚，不太好意思。"],["林部長右昌：這是副主委的名字。"],["牛委員煦庭：對。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：謝謝委員！這是我的名字「Qucung Qalavangan」。"],["牛委員煦庭：「Qucung Qalavangan」。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：「Qalavangan」。"],["牛委員煦庭：「Qalavangan」。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：對。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝副主委。這就是我今天要提出這個質詢滿重要的問題，我想今天的修法應該可以順利的通過，但是我希望內政部不要為德不卒，修法通過之後，我們應該也有一點點的推廣義務，要讓更多的一般人可以去瞭解和學習，當他們想要精準的發音時可以有一個好的學習平臺，以部長和戶政司長目前的瞭解，因為我現在只能看到文字，如果我想要精準的讀出它的發音時，我應該要上哪裡去查詢呢？"],["林部長右昌：委員，我跟你報告，第一個，原住民有自己的書寫系統；第二個，針對這些名稱，包括要怎麼樣唸，因為他們有不同的族語，現在有16族，所以他們有一個平臺，譬如點進去後會有語音、聲音出來。"],["牛委員煦庭：現在這個平臺的位置在哪裡？"],["林部長右昌：這個請原民會來做說明。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，說明一下。"],["主席：請谷縱副主委。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：跟委員報告，其實我們現在有一個族語平臺叫做「族語E樂園」。"],["牛委員煦庭：「族語E樂園」，這個我剛剛有跟你請教。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：對，「族語E樂園」裡面有這個部分，不過我們今年也會和原民會一起來推動「原住民族人名譜」，這個名譜裡面就會有各式各樣的原住民族名字，包括我們現在已經請語推組織來錄音，像我剛剛唸「Qucung Qalavangan」，就是讓這個音……"],["牛委員煦庭：讓標準的音可以錄進去。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：對，未來我們也會建置原住民族傳統姓名平臺，我們要讓……"],["牛委員煦庭：對啦！這就是我今天要講的重點。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：對，要讓大社會可以在這個平臺上點選原住民的姓名錄。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，姓名條例通過之後，這個精準發音的平臺就要建立起來，而且它要有一定的易達性，不要藏在官方網站的某一個角落，一般人找不到就比較可惜，這應該要被彰顯，這是本席的想法。本席的名字叫「牛煦庭」，中間的字常常被人家唸錯，所以很多時候我都感同身受，我們希望內政部要貫徹這個政策，好，謝謝副主委。","最後還有一點點時間，我要藉這個機會，因為今天剛好在討論姓名，這不免跟戶政有點關係，所以有件事情我要請戶政司長來回答。本席過去發現你們都會針對國人的姓名做出統計報告，還有國人姓名的疊字排行榜，其中冠軍是誰？司長。"],["陳代理司長子和：我們今年有特別的針對疊字做出統計，以前是每2年做一次姓名統計分析。"],["牛委員煦庭：好，這個統計當然很有意思、也很有趣，我記得男生疊字的第一名叫「彬彬」，但是看到這件事情，因為本席是基層出身的，所以本席不免為戶政司捏一把冷汗，為什麼呢？因為本席的選區、龜山區是一個標準生活圈非常分散的地方，所以我們在不同的生活圈需要開車、舟車勞頓，車程可能需要15分或20分，所以大家到龜山戶政事務所去辦公其實是非常麻煩的一件事，所以本席在做議員的時候，很多人都希望不同的生活圈都可以有越來越多的戶政便民窗口，可是戶政便民窗口在推動的時候，我們在地方聽到的反映是，第一個，戶政基層人員不足；第二個，設備不足，譬如，現在林口臺地上有很多新遷入的，所以我為了要辦遷入、拿身分證、遷戶籍，我就要跑到山下的戶政事務所，我上面要開窗口，它說即便有開窗口，但是它也沒有設備可以印發身分證，所以這個窗口的服務效益被打了很大的折扣。既然中央有這個人力、資源和時間去調查姓名的疊字是哪一個最多，可是地方的這些問題卻沒有被凸顯，我覺得這有點可惜，是不是請內政部做一下盤點和檢討？就是地方的戶政資源，中央要怎麼樣給予多一點的資源，讓地方戶政的便民可以更完善。"],["林部長右昌：委員，我跟你報告，第一個，不是我們戶政司的人很多，因為這個從電腦系統裡就可以去做一些調查和分析。第二個，地方上的戶政系統屬於地方政府的權責，要設幾個戶政事務所縣市政府自己就可以決定。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，它現在有窗口，但相對來講是人力，我覺得人力相對來講好調度，因為現在是資訊化的時代，很多東西都可以從資訊化的介面去整合，但是設備的部分，我們希望這個中央可以提供一定的資源，好不好？"],["林部長右昌：設備應該沒有問題，人力的部分縣市政府自己可以去調配。"],["牛委員煦庭：人力可以去勻，但是你們提供的設備資源越多，相關的電子化、便民化的措施越詳細的時候，相對的，人力需求就會下降，調度的空間也會出來，所以這次我們來研討一下。"],["林部長右昌：是，這個應該要因地制宜，有一些人口新增的地方，縣市政府可能要去思考要不要新設。"],["牛委員煦庭：對，地方和中央要合作，希望中央可以在這部分給予一些資源，讓便民窗口這件事可以做得更好。"],["林部長右昌：好，基本上我們尊重，謝謝。"],["牛委員煦庭：謝謝部長，辛苦了。"],["主席：好，非常謝謝牛煦庭委員的質詢，謝謝部長，謝謝。","我們繼續請鄭天財委員，鄭天財委員，你的名字是「Sra Kacaw」對吧！好，請Sra Kacaw委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":72,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-16","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","張智倫","黃仁","林倩綺"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 等21人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe\n等16人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.31784375,"end":1.7690937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.88284375,"end":4.4353437499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.92471875,"end":6.8990937500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":7.3209687500000005,"end":8.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.47221875,"end":12.704093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.99096875,"end":63.227843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.984093750000003,"end":30.22034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.51471875000001,"end":74.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.47909375,"end":97.53471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.05784375,"end":113.97096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.69659375,"end":114.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.62471875000001,"end":125.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.61471875000001,"end":129.56346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":129.74909375000001,"end":143.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":136.81971875000002,"end":138.15284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.64596875,"end":141.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.43909375,"end":146.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.80534375000002,"end":152.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.82159375,"end":152.53034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.74971875,"end":156.52971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.03659375,"end":153.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.89284375,"end":155.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.52971875,"end":156.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.56346875,"end":157.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.08659375000002,"end":185.60534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.95971875,"end":159.44909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.76971875,"end":189.65534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.94221875000002,"end":207.18846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.34471875000003,"end":207.13784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":207.18846875000003,"end":207.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.96471875,"end":210.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.44971875000002,"end":209.58471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.58471875,"end":209.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.60159375,"end":209.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.61846875,"end":209.68596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.68596875,"end":209.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.95596875,"end":210.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.02346875,"end":210.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":210.95159375,"end":211.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.35659375,"end":223.92846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.65971875000002,"end":217.73534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.11409375000002,"end":244.71846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.13096875000002,"end":224.70471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.63596875000002,"end":232.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":234.07034375,"end":235.96034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":240.01034375,"end":241.41096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.75659375,"end":277.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":277.37159375000005,"end":283.14284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.27784375000005,"end":286.07909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.93971875,"end":287.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_04","start":291.39471875000004,"end":301.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.30471875,"end":300.64221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.79409375,"end":306.83534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.29096875000005,"end":336.85596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.97409375,"end":373.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":373.96409375,"end":391.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":391.15971875,"end":402.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":401.99346875000003,"end":406.78596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.44471875000005,"end":403.95096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.43159375000005,"end":416.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.81971875000005,"end":407.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":414.71721875000003,"end":422.41221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":416.48909375000005,"end":416.60721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.78784375000004,"end":428.41971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":424.43721875,"end":425.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.56346875,"end":426.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.39034375,"end":427.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":427.50846875,"end":427.54221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":429.11159375000005,"end":432.94221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":433.68471875,"end":435.89534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEA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Tahovecahe等16人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；上開議案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-16"},"duration":368,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:22:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:15:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":568,"blocks":[["吳委員琪銘：（11時15分）謝謝召委、與會同仁，請內政部長及原民會副主委。"],["主席：有請林部長和谷縱副主委。"],["林部長右昌：委員好！"],["吳委員琪銘：部長好！部長，今天針對伍麗華委員及高金召委所提的傳統姓名辦理登記、申請以使用羅馬拼音為原住民的文字，本席在這邊也是尊重原住民族，畢竟原住民族跟我們不一樣，過去的規定姓名只可以更改3次，但是原住民的孩子結婚或是族群都和我們不太一樣，因為他們是「親隨子名制」，他們會隨著兒子、長子的結婚和文化習俗來改名，所以這個部分應該要放寬，給原住民多重的選擇，請部長說明一下好不好？"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員的垂詢，這部分我們完全尊重，然後也支持，現在委員的提案修法裡面也有提到這一點，就是不納入改名的次數，這部分我們是贊成的。"],["吳委員琪銘：是贊成嘛！"],["林部長右昌：是，我們尊重也贊成。"],["吳委員琪銘：對，因為如果他跟我們一樣是3次的話，我聽原住民他們說，因為他們改名的次數真的會非常多，所以不要把他們綁住。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，副主委先請回。請教部長，過去一些公共工程遇到的問題，因為重機械吊車要放置的地方，全國都沒有合法化，但是公共工程要推動，這樣會造成業者非常大的困擾，因為公共工程以及民間工程都一定要使用到吊車，但是你又沒有辦法讓他們停放的地方合法化，這對業者來說的衝擊非常大，很多吊車業的車子都放著，政府的法規又沒有規定他們該如何申請來納入合法，全國都一樣，所以這個部分請部長說明，我們要如何輔導他們？"],["林部長右昌：好，感謝召委，我知道這部分召委非常的重視，我自己也有親自召開過會議，它有分成幾個部分，第一個，現在業者擔心在國土計畫法實施之後，現況使用的這些地方會不會受到影響，答案是基本上是不會的。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，不會。"],["林部長右昌：對，但是也的確像你剛剛所提到的，這些建築機具業者需要一個可長可久且符合土地使用分區的場所，我們開完會議之後發現，不同的重機械業者，他們有著不同的需求，譬如，他們大部分都是沒有牌照的，但是我印象中、我記得大概有一到二個業別是有牌照的，有牌照的就是交通部監理單位管轄的範圍，這部分是不是要納入我們剛才提到的、就是內政部正在研議的這些建築重機械所可以臨時停放的這些場所，現在我們已經請工會回去把這些不同業別的意見再重新收攏，內政部會再進一步的和工會召開會議來進行討論。我們的政策方向是支持和贊成，我們應該要讓這些營造業的重機械業者有一個合法停放這些機具、設備的場所和地方，如果它有需要劃設專區或是在使用分區上把它納進來的項目的話，國土署後續會來配合做相關的修正和調整。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝部長。"],["林部長右昌：所以我們的立場和態度是正面的，應該要給這些業者一個可以合法停放這些機具的空間和場所。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，謝謝部長。因為這些重機械業者真的全國都沒有一個地方有法規可以來輔導，所以未來我們要替他們解決問題，因為每一個建案或公共工程都需要用到重機械，如果你不把它納入合法的程序和管理，這對他們來說非常的不公平。"],["林部長右昌：是，我們會正面的來處理這個問題，委員，沒有問題，謝謝你的關心。"],["吳委員琪銘：好，沒問題哦！謝謝！謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["主席：非常謝謝吳琪銘召委的質詢，謝謝部長，謝謝。","繼續請牛煦庭委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":72,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-16","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra 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Tahovecahe等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":21.355,"end":34.76,"text":"二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":45.509,"end":68.164,"text":"不太不太一樣因為他們親親水子名字誰的兒子還有長子他們的結婚的文文化的習俗的改名所以在這這個地方這個部分應該也是要放寬給原住民他們有多重的選擇請部長來來做說明一下好不好"},{"start":73,"end":93.213,"text":"審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分"},{"start":102.116,"end":117.641,"text":"連兒子結婚我還聽原住民他們所講的因為改名的次數真的會非常多所以也不要說把他綁住我們副主委先請回副主委我請部長"},{"start":125.87,"end":138.245,"text":"我們過去,我們有一些公共工程,他們遇到的問題,部長,因為我們也有做過去,爆發他們種機械、吊車"},{"start":140.128,"end":154.613,"text":"第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":155.546,"end":172.933,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例第二條及第二條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":175.388,"end":187.816,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":200.492,"end":228.328,"text":"我之前我自己也有親自召開過會議那他有分成幾個部分第一個是現在在有業者擔心在國土計劃法實施之後那現況使用的這些地方會不會受到影響那答案是基本上是不會的但是也的確像你剛剛所提到的我們的這些這些建築機具的這些業者他需要一個能夠"},{"start":229.269,"end":249.16,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":250.701,"end":268.671,"text":"但是我印象應該記得有一到兩個頁別他是有牌照那有牌照就是交通部監管監理單位的這個管轄的一個範圍那這部分是不是要納入剛剛在提到的我們內政部正在研議的"},{"start":270.432,"end":286.584,"text":"建築的重機械所可以臨時停放的這些場所。現在我們請工會回去他們去把這些需要這些不同的業別的意見再重新收攏那我們會內政部會再進一步跟工會召開會議"},{"start":287.484,"end":307.832,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具、「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":315.081,"end":325.833,"text":"所以我們的立場跟態度是正面的,應該要給這些業者一個合法可以擬放寄具的一個空間跟場所。因為你說中心線這業者是全國性,全國真的沒有一個地方是有個法規。"},{"start":335.042,"end":337.885,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第"},{"start":360.478,"end":363.481,"text":"二、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"152069","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152069","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1b27b2354fac4a6a4a1f61ce136a0fb9155be169921a0a717f1fcc3062aedd04a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"麥玉珍","委員發言時間":"11:07:08 - 11:15:26","影片長度":"00:08:18","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；上開議案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-16"},"duration":498,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:15:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:07:08+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":540,"blocks":[["麥委員玉珍：（11時7分）謝謝主席！有請部長。"],["主席：有請林部長，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：委員好！"],["麥委員玉珍：部長好！想要請教一下，現在大家都買預售屋，大家最怕的就是買到爛尾樓，近幾年因為原物料一直在上漲，缺工又嚴重，建商營建成本大幅上升，許多案件遲遲沒有動工，還有蓋到一半停工的，導致預售屋延遲交屋的糾紛不斷，一堆預售屋無法完工，建商也落跑了，對於爛尾樓的案件，內政部是否有掌握現行各大小建商的營業情形，保障消費者的權利？"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員的垂詢，不過你提到的這個問題跟我現在掌握、瞭解的實際狀況好像有一點落差，我們現在並沒有聽到爛尾樓的數量有增加的問題，基本上，現在北中南的市場都還算穩定，而且市況都還算不錯。去年最主要是因為年初時平均地權條例上路，中南部有一些中小型的建商，他們感受到壓力，不過下半年的時候我們有推出一些新的措施，所以現在並沒有聽到有這樣的聲音。基本上，現在整個市場算是穩定，而且還算是溫和，甚至市況可以說是還不錯的狀況。"],["麥委員玉珍：因為我收到新住民的陳情，他們好不容易才可以買房子，結果建商落跑了，他們找不到人，所以我們才會提出這個問題。"],["林部長右昌：我們目前沒有特別的聽到有這樣的狀況，如果委員有個案的話……"],["麥委員玉珍：他們好不容易才存到錢來買房子，他們是買預售屋，最後卻找不到人，所以我才會問這一塊，事實上，網路上也有看到這樣的問題。"],["林部長右昌：是，這可能是個案的糾紛，它的原因可能很多，如果委員有個案，然後它涉及消費者權益的糾紛的話，可以從消費者權益保障措施來做處理。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，因為預售屋的發照和動工都是地方政府在管的，所以中央是不是可以有一個統籌的、相關的平臺？像新北市有預售屋施工進度查詢，這樣就可以公告相關的建築、營造業的管理和運用，這樣消費者才可以知道施工的進度，否則他們會求救無門，像新北市就有這樣的管理，這樣對消費者也比較有保障，如果地方政府的措施都不一的話，恐怕無法全面的保障不動產的安全和消費者。"],["林部長右昌：這是地方政府該做的事情。"],["麥委員玉珍：對，但是不是每一個地方政府都有，目前我看到只有新北市有，其他縣市是沒有的，所以我們希望中央是不是能夠要求或者是統一有一個窗口？這樣對於購買預售屋的消費者比較有保障。"],["林部長右昌：委員，跟你報告一下，建照跟建管是屬於地方政府的權責，所以這部分我們會要求地方政府完善消費者保護的措施，另外更重要的是，資訊要能夠揭露。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，沒錯。"],["林部長右昌：據我瞭解，其實包括各縣市，像建照審查的進度等等，現在線上都查詢得到。至於你提到的相關的進度查詢、申報日期、項目，審核進度、建商資訊等等，我瞭解的是，這些建商應該線上都查得到，建照到底審到什麼程度都查得到，但是預售……"],["麥委員玉珍：我們是希望每一個縣市政府都可以像新北市有這樣的平臺，這樣比較方便民眾查詢，如果中央可以有這樣的措施或平臺，那就可以讓更多的民眾查得到。因為我們新住民比較不懂中文，你要叫他去查，關鍵字找不到就會查不到，所以我們希望這部分能夠便民。"],["林部長右昌：因為今天國土署沒有到場，我是不是請國土署瞭解之後再跟委員報告？"],["麥委員玉珍：好，謝謝部長。有請原民會副主委。"],["主席：有請谷縱副主委，謝謝部長！"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：委員好！"],["麥委員玉珍：謝謝！想要請教一下，我們來討論一下原住民教育相關的議題，根據教育部「111年原住民族學生就學概況」數據顯示，原住民族學生高等教育的在學率只有56.5%，和一般生相差33.6%，顯示原住民族學生在高等教育資源的取得上與一般生相比有極大的差距，請教一下，我們要如何鼓勵和支持更多的原住民族學生進入高等教育學習，以擴大高教公共化？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：好，跟委員報告，我們原住民族的學生進入高等教育所面對的各種挑戰和困難有很多面向，有的是經濟方面、有些是興趣方面，或是家庭環境，我們原民會針對經濟上有助學金的輔助，包括人才的獎勵，我們希望我們的學生進入大學後能夠有經濟上的支持。另外，寒暑的部分，暑假我們都有一些工讀計畫，讓我們的學生可以利用暑假期間投入公部門或私部門來工作，讓他們暑假期間也可以賺取一點經費來預備下學期的學費。"],["麥委員玉珍：是，因為很多人都說我們原住民有很多補助，但是也有很多原住民的朋友說，懂的人才申請得到，不懂得人就申請不到，就是只照顧懂的人，我在靜宜大學有很多同學都是原住民，所以我希望原民會能夠把這個資訊，要讓偏鄉的人瞭解如何去申請，不要我們有這麼多預算要補助原住民，要讓原住民的朋友想要去讀書，沒有的話，為什麼這個比例差那麼多？是因為我們宣傳不夠或者輔導不夠，所以大家都不知道可以去申請。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：是的，我們在很多大專院校裡面都有設置原住民族教育資源中心，這些資源中心都會協助我們原住民族的學生申請相關的權利，包括學業上或是社會層面上。至於委員提到的宣導不足的部分，我們會持續的結合地方政府來做宣導。"],["麥委員玉珍：好，拜託，謝謝。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝麥玉珍委員的質詢，也非常謝謝谷縱副主委。","繼續請吳琪銘召委。剛剛召委有宣布，下下禮拜我要排審「地方民意代表費用支給及村里長事務費補助條例」，聽說召委下禮拜就要排了，好，我們共同來努力，所以我們下禮拜就會見到部長，不是下下禮拜，好，謝謝召委。","請吳琪銘召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":72,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-16","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","張智倫","黃仁","林倩綺"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 等21人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe\n等16人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.39784375,"end":2.79846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.50221875,"end":9.19409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.379718750000002,"end":24.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.10721875,"end":49.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.86284375,"end":53.71034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":54.587843750000005,"end":60.477218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":60.88221875000001,"end":72.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.59346875,"end":73.31909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.85909375,"end":107.42346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.40659375000001,"end":114.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.44346875000001,"end":119.50596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.67971875,"end":116.38409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.51909375000001,"end":116.97471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.44721875,"end":133.57971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.21409375,"end":125.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":127.40346875,"end":127.94346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.06096875,"end":148.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.88971875000001,"end":178.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":150.18471875,"end":150.23534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.70346875,"end":205.92284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":207.66096875000002,"end":210.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.97284375,"end":221.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.39284375000003,"end":227.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.37534375,"end":226.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":226.40909375,"end":226.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.52721875,"end":226.66221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.35409375,"end":229.76721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.81784375,"end":257.61096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.50346875000002,"end":244.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":245.98409375000003,"end":246.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.91471875,"end":264.29346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":265.17096875000004,"end":270.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.38534375,"end":280.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.77221875000004,"end":311.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.06096875000003,"end":295.52909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.52909375,"end":295.57971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.67471875,"end":308.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":309.38346875,"end":317.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.15034375000005,"end":316.60596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.16284375000004,"end":319.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":319.52534375000005,"end":323.57534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.71034375,"end":325.63409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.24534375,"end":329.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.81909375000004,"end":329.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.83596875,"end":339.94409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.41659375,"end":347.57159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.85846875000004,"end":349.29284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.90034375000005,"end":359.56971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":359.73846875000004,"end":360.88596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":361.27409375,"end":364.66596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":365.08784375000005,"end":374.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.40284375000005,"end":376.17471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":376.66409375,"end":377.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":377.65971875,"end":382.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.90784375000004,"end":384.27471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.56159375000004,"end":388.17284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.44284375,"end":398.92221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":399.29346875000005,"end":418.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":418.75034375,"end":424.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":424.16721875,"end":432.09846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":432.43596875000003,"end":471.23159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":436.90784375000004,"end":437.49846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.71596875,"end":449.76659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.76659375,"end":449.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.81721875000005,"end":449.85096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":459.19971875000005,"end":459.36846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":463.73909375000005,"end":463.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.77596875,"end":488.59596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":475.87221875000006,"end":476.3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Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":73.993,"end":88.653,"text":"市場上基本上北中南都還算穩定而且市況都還算不錯去年最主要是因為在年初的時候平均地權條例上路那中南部有一些中小型的建商他們也有感受到壓力"},{"start":89.394,"end":98.759,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":114.708,"end":142.31,"text":"我們目前沒有特別聽到有這樣的狀況,如果委員有個案的話不容易存到錢買房子,買一收屋到最後就是找不到人才會說去問這一塊,還有就是網路也有看到事實上也有可能個案的一個糾紛,它的原因可能有很多如果委員有這個個案,然後它是有涉及消費者之間權益的一個糾紛的話"},{"start":144.547,"end":162.289,"text":"這個可以從這個消費者的一個權益保障的一個措施來做處理對但是就是因為一收屋在發燒還有就是要動工都是地方政府在管所以我們就看到說如果是說我們在中央是不是像說有一個統籌"},{"start":163.61,"end":175.861,"text":"就像我們的新北市有這個一收屋的施工進度查詢相關的平台的話這樣子的話才會說公告相關的的建築還有營造營造業的管理還有應用這樣讓消費者才會知道說那個施工的進度因為這樣子他們求助無門的話就"},{"start":188.516,"end":191.619,"text":"三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":208.011,"end":222.888,"text":"這是地方政府該做的事情對,但是不是每一個地方政府都有目前就是看到新北市其他縣市是沒有的所以我們希望說是不是我們中央是不是要求或者是統一有一個這樣子的"},{"start":223.444,"end":251.701,"text":"的窗口,這樣的話對我們的要買一收屋的消費者比較有保障。委員跟你報告一下,這個建造跟建管這個是屬於地方政府的權責。所以這一部分我們會來要求地方政府怎麼樣去完善消費者保護的一個措施。另外更重要就是說資訊能夠揭露。那據我瞭解,其實包括各縣市他們在譬如說像在建造的一個審查的進度,"},{"start":252.281,"end":256.565,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":265.242,"end":291.364,"text":"日期項目審核的進度等等建造的資訊。我瞭解的是建商他們應該是線上其實都可以查得到。建造到底審到什麼程度這個是查得到的。每一個縣市政府都有這樣子像我們新北市的話是說我們民眾比較便民比較查得到。希望我們中央如果是可以的話就是這個措施或者這樣平台"},{"start":291.84,"end":302.185,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":320.433,"end":325.577,"text":"第2條及第3條及第4條及第5條及第6條及第7條及第8條及第8條及第9條及第10條及第11條及第11條及第12條及第11條及第12條及第12條及第11條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及第12條及"},{"start":349.975,"end":375.837,"text":"只有56.5和一般生就是差距33.6個百分點顯示原住民的高等教育就資源獲得上跟一般的比較差有差距請教一下如何鼓勵和支持更多的原住民族進入高等教育的階段學習還有就是廣大高教的公共測試"},{"start":377.654,"end":395.827,"text":"姓名條例第三條及第二條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":399.369,"end":416.822,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":424.267,"end":439.061,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":439.341,"end":452.914,"text":"二條及第三條及第四條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":459.901,"end":488.169,"text":"他們想要去讀書沒有的話為什麼的比例差那麼多是因為我們宣傳不夠或者輔導不夠讓大家不知道說我們是可以去有這樣子的申請是的我想我們在很多的大專業校裡面都有設置原住民主教育支援中心教育支援中心都會協助我們原住民學生相關的權利包括不管是學業上的或是他在社會層面上那至於委員提到可能宣導不足的部分我們會持續結合地方政府做宣導"},{"start":488.669,"end":498.304,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"}]}},{"id":"152066","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152066","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db126bd8feafdabfedfa1f61ce136a0fb9155be169921a0a717a12d4359cc2b37275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃建賓","委員發言時間":"10:56:01 - 11:06:56","影片長度":"00:10:55","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；上開議案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-16"},"duration":655,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:06:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T10:56:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":486,"blocks":[["黃委員建賓：（10時56分）謝謝主席，有請部長跟副主委。"],["主席：有請林部長，還有谷縱副主委。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["黃委員建賓：部長好、副主委好。Nga'ay ho, ci Kanas kako.（你好，我是Kanas）我是阿美族的kadafo（好婿），我們今天的議題就是修法讓原住民可以選擇單列羅馬拼音的傳統姓名，這個本席是支持，不過，我想有一些事情是未來我們要面對也要去處理的，就像我們目前的統計，現在用羅馬拼音的人口大概是兩萬八千多人，占整個原住民大概是4.79%，未來這個法通過之後，原民會有沒有其他的作為可以提高這個比例？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：跟委員報告，我們是持續召開恢復傳統姓名便利措施的協調，我們也鼓勵地方政府不管是恢復傳統姓名的單一窗口，或是規費的部分來提供協助，所以在姓名恢復上是有增加。"],["黃委員建賓：接下來就是問到比較務實的事情，如果新生兒要用新的族語方式命名，或許不會有比較大的問題，假設像本席這樣子，本席有原住民身分，我要恢復的話，可能問題就會比較多一點，包括我所有的資料都要變更、我的結婚證書可能要改，這些都要改名字，花的時間成本其實是不少的，時間跟金錢成本是不少的。我想要問一下原民會，這個部分還單單是戶政的部分，地政的部分呢？包括我的土地、我的房子，這個是不是也會花一樣多的時間？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：確實在實務上，除了你在戶政機關恢復傳統姓名之外，你現有相關的證件，包括駕照要去監理站等等都要換……"],["黃委員建賓：都要換，我們還……"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：所以這個就是原民會為什麼要持續來推動恢復傳統姓名單一窗口這個工作，因為涉及的面很廣，我們要進行協調。"],["黃委員建賓：副主委，本席要說的是，在不同的部會他就要各別去辦理，對不對？像戶政跟地政就要分開來辦。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：是。"],["黃委員建賓：還不包括民間的，比如說我在銀行的存款有什麼資料都要弄，這個是因為我們整個系統沒有連動、勾稽的關係，這邊是不是要求原民會，如果未來執行下去之後，你要用行政命令的方式來整合這些東西，不要讓族人花那麼多的時間嘛！","我大概跟部長分享，以我們偏鄉來說，很多族人都在外地工作，他一趟回去的時間很有限，他要跑這麼多地方，是不是可以讓族人在做族名回復時減少一些程序，還有減少一些金錢？"],["林部長右昌：委員，跟你報告一下，我來幫原民會稍微說一下，因為這個牽扯的範圍會非常、非常廣，你現在想得到的，或者是可能一時還沒想到的，它會牽扯到所有跟個人身分有關係的一切事宜，有沒有辦法用單一個窗口來申請，然後全部連動，這個會跟資料系統的嫁接有關係，比如說銀行要接到單一個窗口，這個可能會有一些困難。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，這個都……"],["林部長右昌：因為不只是銀行，其實包括剛剛在講地政的系統，就算它可以接，可是它沒有辦法在這個地方，比如說馬上給你一個新的地籍謄本，或是房屋所有權的謄本，因為這個都會涉及到人民的財產。我們戶政系統的資料可以在你更名之後，嫁接提供給其他的機關、單位，這個行之有年，這個沒有問題。不過，剛才提到是不是能夠一個窗口申請，然後所有、一切的資料就全部、統統都馬上更改和取得？這個可能需要由原民會再進一步的和相關機關、單位來做討論。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，今天很多人提到的就是，未來我們都會遇到問題，我們現在就要開始準備，不要法令執行下去後，發現問題更多，這會造成我們族人的困擾，這是本席的建議。"],["林部長右昌：另外，我剛剛也有講，希望能給我們行政機關一些時間，讓我們把這件事情做得更完美。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長的說明。部長，接下來我們要在委員會見面的時間越來越少了，我恢復用我的母語來和你聊天，我想要請教你一些問題。部長，本席支持只要是對人民有利的事、對的事情，錢就應該要花下去，絕對不要做其他的考量，只要是對民眾好的話，錢就是要花，just do it，所以在這邊本席要追蹤一些進度。","請問部長，去年立委選舉期間，部長是不是有到過臺東？你有沒有印象？"],["林部長右昌：去哪裡？"],["黃委員建賓：臺東。"],["林部長右昌：臺東？"],["黃委員建賓：你當時有沒有答應過什麼事情？"],["林部長右昌：我去臺東一般都是去勘災。"],["黃委員建賓：好，你有沒有印象？就是去年立委選舉期間，本席提醒一下部長，去年選舉時部長來到臺東，也會勘了我們的仁愛國小，你允諾要協助、幫助我們學區周邊學童上學的安全，要施作環境改善，本席認為這就是很好的事情，錢要花在對的地方，照顧學童是對的，但是臺東不只有仁愛國小，我想部長應該不是因為選舉年才下去，我相信絕對不是這樣，你是為了照顧地方，所以本席很羨慕一些委員，像中部的委員當時跟國土署陳情就拿到7,000萬元來改善校園周邊學童的通學步道。","臺東是一個窮縣，我們沒有大型企業的支持，所以我們的稅收比較少，為了臺東學童的安危，本席要求，國土署是不是可以額外編列補助，針對各縣市繳稅在平均數以下的縣市政府，特別是像臺東縣這樣的縣市，給予更多的經費來改善校園周邊的交通安全？部長，你是不是可以支持國土署依照這樣的原則來編列相關的補助？"],["林部長右昌：委員，我跟你報告，因為這會牽扯到整個制度的規則，現在我們對地方的補助是依照財政的等級。"],["黃委員建賓：是啦！部長，本席……"],["林部長右昌：第二個，我跟你報告，基本上，我們的經費是充足的，因為4年400億元，一年就有100億元，過去執行一年最多大概只有五十幾億元，所以我們的預算是充足的。再來，還有一個更重要的是，這個必須要由縣市政府來提案，它必須要提出來，這樣國土署才有辦法去做進一步的審查。"],["黃委員建賓：未來針對像臺東縣這樣財源不是很充裕的縣市，署裡面要怎麼協助？未來國土署可不可以協助臺東縣？可不可以請部長來協助？"],["林部長右昌：我想協助沒有問題，不過我剛才一直提到，這個事情、特別是地方的通學環境等等，地方政府非常重要，如果它很積極，像我以前在基隆市，基隆市的財政是全國第二差的，比臺東還差，可是我還是可以在8年的時間內把它做很大的改善，這是資源運用調配的問題。"],["黃委員建賓：好，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：至於必要的案件，我們一定會全力來支持，委員請放心。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長的回復。報告主席，再給我一點點時間，我要再請教另外一件跟學童有關係的事情。學校的安全除了學校在保護以外，另外一個就是地方的村里長，他們除了要擔任志工，還要留意學校周邊的安全，所以我們常常都會稱呼他們為「土地公」或「土地婆」，對不對？當然，他們為這個國家所付出的，值得我們表揚和肯定，我據聞部長準備要發紅包給全國的村里長，他們將有年終獎金1.5個月，是不是有這件事情？"],["林部長右昌：不是我要發，其實這件事情我們去年就已經開始討論，我們考慮到村里長對於薪水……"],["黃委員建賓：很辛苦。"],["林部長右昌：我們甚至有討論要不要發薪水這個問題，但是意見不一。"],["黃委員建賓：部長，本席很支持。"],["林部長右昌：我們已經有共識，我們會將村里長的事務補助費乘於1.5個月當成年終慰勞金。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝！部長，其實本席是支持的，因為本席當過村幹事，知道村里長真的很辛苦，其實這個在本黨委員會也曾提過，我再確認一下明年會不會發？"],["林部長右昌：這個案子今天行政院院會正在討論，討論完之後，因為它必須要修法，所以會送到大院來審議，今年來得及完成法律程序的話，明年應該就有機會發放年終慰勞金。"],["黃委員建賓：先謝謝部長！不過部長，我還是要問現實面的問題，這筆錢是中央出？還是地方出？"],["林部長右昌：沒有，地方政府編列預算。"],["黃委員建賓：沒有，不能這樣啦！像臺東縣的預算那麼少，你知道我們臺東縣光是加發……"],["主席：跟委員抱歉！時間已經到了，我跟你說明和報告一下，下下個禮拜召委就會排審地方制度法，好不好？"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝主席。"],["主席：但是我們現在很樂於見到行政院有它的版本，本來最開始是我的版本，我本來就要排審了，但是聽到部長和院長好像都樂觀其成，但是最重要的就是你剛才提到的問題，這個財政到底是由地方支出？還是中央支出？還是按照統籌分配款？這就是我們下下個禮拜要討論的部分，所以把時間留到下個禮拜，好嗎？"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝召委。"],["林部長右昌：召委，我10秒鐘補充一下，因為今天談到原住民族的事情。其實剛才提到的村里長，包括民意代表的部分，我們是額外加10%，所以原鄉所在的直轄市議員或者是非直轄市議員的鄉鎮村區等等，他們的事務費補助我們是額外加10%，因為它的幅員遼闊、交通不便，這部分我們有考慮進來。"],["主席：好，謝謝部長今天提前的說明，我們下下禮拜再見，謝謝。"],["黃委員建賓：謝謝部長！謝謝副主委！謝謝主席！"],["主席：謝謝建賓委員。","繼續請麥玉珍委員質詢，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":72,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-16","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","張智倫","黃仁","林倩綺"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 等21人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe\n等16人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.03096875,"end":2.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.15721875,"end":5.076593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.008468750000002,"end":16.922843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":17.61471875,"end":18.39096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":18.67784375,"end":33.24096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":33.84846875,"end":42.049718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":42.37034375,"end":44.682218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":45.610343750000006,"end":46.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.040343750000005,"end":48.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.626593750000005,"end":65.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.65784375,"end":70.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.48409375,"end":70.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.65284375,"end":70.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.72034375,"end":70.87221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.87221875,"end":70.95659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.95659375000001,"end":90.19409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.26159375,"end":90.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":90.37971875000001,"end":97.12971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":97.72034375000001,"end":99.69471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.45409375000001,"end":100.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":100.87596875000001,"end":102.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":103.10346875,"end":105.36471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.02284375,"end":106.37721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.46159375,"end":111.99659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":112.18221875,"end":114.89909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.53596875000001,"end":122.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":122.81346875000001,"end":138.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.79596875000001,"end":127.50471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.17971875,"end":128.78721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":132.61784375000002,"end":133.00596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":137.29221875000002,"end":139.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.89096875,"end":153.17159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.20534375,"end":158.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.25096875,"end":166.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":166.65471875,"end":184.45784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":186.38159375,"end":186.87096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.41096875000002,"end":204.13409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.09596875000003,"end":216.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.79034375,"end":246.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.22034375,"end":219.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":242.86221875,"end":242.98034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":247.06409375,"end":268.93409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":267.78659375,"end":281.91096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":280.69596875,"end":286.58534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":286.58534375,"end":289.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":289.47096875,"end":307.52721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.26971875000004,"end":312.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":313.14659375,"end":316.26846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":316.63971875000004,"end":321.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":321.63471875000005,"end":322.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":322.24221875,"end":322.71471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":323.74409375000005,"end":324.99284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":325.61721875,"end":329.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":329.02596875,"end":345.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":345.56346875,"end":345.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":346.40721875,"end":347.65596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":348.11159375,"end":350.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":351.04784375,"end":351.41909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":352.22909375,"end":372.00659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":373.45784375000005,"end":394.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":394.45034375,"end":397.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":398.65221875000003,"end":430.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":406.92096875000004,"end":407.44409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.64659375,"end":408.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":430.10721875,"end":438.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":439.08471875000004,"end":439.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.10159375,"end":439.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":439.38846875,"end":439.54034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":439.54034375000003,"end":439.57409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":440.21534375000005,"end":455.53784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":455.95971875000004,"end":468.53159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03",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Kacaw等21人擬具、「姓名條例第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":34.221,"end":46.021,"text":"人口28000多人,佔原住民4.79%。未來這個法通過之後,移民會有沒有其他作為可以提高這個比例?"},{"start":49.891,"end":63.948,"text":"跟委員報告我們是持續召開恢復傳統姓名的這個便利措施的協調那我們也鼓勵我們的地方政府呢針對不管是恢復傳統姓名的單一窗口或是貴賄的部分來協助"},{"start":65.77,"end":94.213,"text":"所以在姓名恢復上是有增加增加了好那接下來就是問到比較務實的事情像是我們如果新生兒要重新用就是用我們的新的主義方式命名他或許不會比較大的問題但像假設像本席這樣子本席有原住民身份我要恢復的話那可能問題就會比較多一點包括我從所有的資料都要變更那包括我的結婚證書可能要改這些都要改名字"},{"start":94.813,"end":113.999,"text":"第二條及第三條及第四條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":116.584,"end":137.402,"text":"根委員報告,確實在實務上除了你在互證機關恢復傳統姓名之外,你現有的相關的證件包括駕照、要去檢理照等等都要換。所以這個就是我們研民會針對為什麼我們要持續來推動恢復傳統姓名單一窗口這個工作。當然因為涉及的面很廣,我們要去協調。"},{"start":138.223,"end":155.811,"text":"本席要說的是說在不同的部會裡面他就要各自去辦理嘛對不對像你互證的跟地證就要分開來辦嘛我們還不包括我們民間比如說我在銀行的存款有什麼資料都要弄嘛那是不是因為這個是考這個是因為我們的整個系統沒有聯動的這個勾結的關係嘛"},{"start":157.131,"end":177.956,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":187.472,"end":204.045,"text":"委員跟你報告一下,我來幫委員稍微說一下,因為這個牽扯的範圍會非常非常廣。你想得到的,現在想得到的,或者是可能一時還沒想到的,它會牽扯到所有跟個人身份有關係的一切事宜。"},{"start":205.446,"end":210.529,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":217.157,"end":240.869,"text":"這個可能會有一些困難因為不只是銀行其實包括剛剛在講我們的這個地政的系統地政的系統就算他可以接可是他沒有辦法在這個地方重新比如說馬上給你一個這個新的地級的一個藤本或者是房屋的一個所有權的一個藤本因為這個都會涉及到人民的財產的這個相關的觀念"},{"start":243.31,"end":250.956,"text":"二條及第三條及第四條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":258.341,"end":286.059,"text":"申請然後所有一切的這個全部通通都馬上改馬上取得這個可能需要原民會再進一步跟國際監管單位提到的就是我們未來都會遇到問題我們現在可以開始再做準備不要當法令執行下去之後發現問題更多這造成我們主任的困擾這是本席的這個建議我剛剛在講說希望給我們行政機關一些時間把這個事情把它做得更完美"},{"start":286.879,"end":307.068,"text":"謝謝部長,謝謝部長的說明。那部長,接下來我們在委員會要見面時間越來越少了。我已經回覆了我的部會要怎麼開工了,就要向你請教一個問題。部長本席支持,只要是對人民有利的事,對事情對的事情,我們錢要把它開來,把它取下去。"},{"start":308.328,"end":320.817,"text":"絕對不要做其他考量,只要對民眾的話,錢就是要花。Just do it!所以在這件事底下,我們是要追蹤一下一些進度。請問部長,在去年還在立委選舉的時候,部長是不是有到過台東?去哪裡?"},{"start":323.439,"end":350.309,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「"},{"start":352.27,"end":371.761,"text":"我相信,但是台東不只有那個國小嘛,像柏中你一輩子因為選舉你比較累啦,我相信昨天不是這樣,有的要照顧地方,所以本期是很羨慕有些委員在,像中部委員他們當時在跟國土署來陳情就拿了7000萬在改善這個周邊的學童同學步道,但是不是"},{"start":373.462,"end":397.472,"text":"部長,台東是一個窮縣,我們沒有大型企業的機器,所以說比較少。部長,為了台東學童的安危,本市要求國土署,是不是可以要求國土署編列額外的補助,針對我們各縣市繳稅平均數之下的縣市,特別像台東縣這樣的縣市,給予更多的經費,來改善校園周邊的交通安全。部長,這樣說,是不是可以支持我們國土署的本業?"},{"start":398.849,"end":425.905,"text":"委員跟你報告因為這會牽扯到整個遊戲就是說整個制度的規則因為現在對地方的補助是依照財政的一個等級那第二個我跟你報告就是說我們我們的經費基本上是充足的因為四年400億一年就有100億那過去執行大概一年最多50幾億所以我們的預算是充足的那第二個還有一個更重要的是這個必須要縣市政府他提案"},{"start":426.445,"end":454.64,"text":"他比較提出來,提出來之後國土署才有辦法去做進一步的審查。那未來針對這些,像臺東縣財運不是這麼創意,署裡面怎麼可以來協助?就只是未來國土署來協助臺東縣,可不可以請部長來協助?我想協助是沒有問題,不過剛剛我一直提到,這個事情,特別是地方的通學環境等等,其實地方政府非常重要。他如果自己很積極,像我以前基隆市,基隆市的財政是全國第二差的,比臺東還差。"},{"start":456.281,"end":479.453,"text":"對可是我也可以在8年的時候時間裡面把它做很大的改善這個是一個資源運用調配的一個問題至於有必要的案件我們一定會全力來支持謝謝部長的請教謝謝部長的回覆包主席再給我一點點時間我要再請教另外跟學童有關係的事情學校的安全除了學校在保護以外另外就是一個我們的地方的村里長"},{"start":480.618,"end":499.816,"text":"所以他們除了會當一些志工或是留意我們周邊學校安全以外所以常常我們都會稱他們為土地公土地婆那當然他們為這個國家付出我們值得來表揚他們也要肯定他們所以俊文部長準備要發紅包給我們全國的處理長"},{"start":501.838,"end":526.379,"text":"年終獎金1.5個月,是這件事情?不是我要發,其實這個是我們從去年的時候就已經開始在做討論,那是考慮到我們的村里長他對於薪水,我們是討論甚至到要不要發薪水的這個問題,但是意見不一,所以我們有共識就是村里長他的一個事務補助費,"},{"start":527.64,"end":528.341,"text":"乘以1.5個月來當成這個年終的一個慰勞金"},{"start":543.195,"end":567.357,"text":"這一個案子現在行政院今天的院會正在討論那討論完之後因為他必須要修法會送到大院來做審議那今年來得及完成法律的一個程序的話應該年終的慰勞金應該在明年的時候是有機會可以發放先謝謝部長不過部長我們是要問到縣市面的這條行是中央處還是地方處沒有地方政府編列預算"},{"start":568.919,"end":571.862,"text":"審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":589.596,"end":617.715,"text":"最開始是我的版本然後我本來就要排了但是聽到我們的部長還有院長好像都樂觀其成但是最重要的就是你剛才提到的問題這個財政到底是由地方支出還是中央支出還是按照統籌分配款裡面再怎麼樣這個就是我們下個禮拜要討論的部分所以把時間留在下個禮拜那個趙偉我10秒鐘補充一下因為今天談到援助民主的事情其實在"},{"start":618.575,"end":644.204,"text":"剛剛提到的村里長還有包括民意代表部分我們是額外加10%所以原住民族的這個就是說他在原鄉的直轄市議員或者是非直轄市議員的這個鄉鎮村區等等他的這個事務費的一個補助我們是額外加10%就是因為他的幅員廣闊交通不便這部分我們有考慮進來"},{"start":644.974,"end":652.563,"text":"二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"}]}},{"id":"152052","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152052","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db11eff867d4ce4fbb0a1f61ce136a0fb9155be169921a0a7177a6d1c5068171aab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許宇甄","委員發言時間":"10:47:54 - 10:55:51","影片長度":"00:07:57","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；上開議案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-16"},"duration":477,"end_time":"2024-05-02T10:55:51+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T10:47:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":433,"blocks":[["許委員宇甄：（10時47分）主席，是不是請林部長跟原民會副主委？"],["主席：有請林部長跟谷縱副主委，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["許委員宇甄：部長好。剛剛聽到一些委員質詢，聽到你的回復也是針對姓名條例修正的部分，您其實是給予全力的支持，原則上這個部分應該是沒有什麼問題。但是，我想因為針對原住民姓名的更改有很多很多後續我們要面對的問題，包括羅馬拼音一般人看到是不是能夠準確的發音，還有很多氣音、捲舌音等相關的部分，目前原民會有沒有加強宣傳的計畫？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：跟委員報告，大社會對於原住民族文字認知或是認識的部分，這是我們原民會會持續再推廣的部分，對於戶政單位的工作，我們也訂定一個工作指南給他們參考，如果我們族人去恢復傳統姓名的話，他們也可以做一些認識跟參考。"],["許委員宇甄：對，針對戶政跟民政的部分，比如說你們大概覺得要多久的時間才能夠處理好這個問題？"],["林部長右昌：委員，我跟你報告，我個人認為其實這是要持續性進行的，包括我個人都需要學習，雖然我有阿美族的名字，但是說實在的，其他族語我也不會唸，我覺得就是讓社會有這樣的一個瞭解、認識跟認同，對於原住民族的文化跟習俗，整個大的社會真的才有辦法彼此瞭解，當彼此瞭解的時候，才不會有一些誤會、誤解，這可以促進整個社會的和諧，我覺得這個是非常重要、關鍵的一步。政府機關，比如說在整個文官的體系裡面，我們內政部所轄管的戶役政系統……"],["許委員宇甄：大概需要多久的時間？"],["林部長右昌：其實我們要學，這個可能需要比較長的時間……"],["許委員宇甄：是不是這個時間可以先……"],["林部長右昌：但是我認為從今年就要啟動，我們修法完之後，我們要來啟動。"],["許委員宇甄：希望也能夠訂出一個大概的時程，也讓所有原住民朋友大家能夠知道。另外，就是針對這些相關的部分，比如說接下來我們依照新的法令要修正什麼，包括證件等相關的部分，這個經費是不是應該要由原民會全額負擔？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：剛剛前面也有委員提出建議，我想未來針對規費的部分，我們原民會去研議，看看怎麼樣去承擔。"],["許委員宇甄：因為這個部分是我們政策的問題，原則上我覺得應該是要由政府負擔。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：我跟委員補充報告，剛剛委員擔心關於大社會對族語或是族名認識的部分，今年原語會也在積極推動研發原住民族傳統名字拼音系統音譯規範指引，這個部分……"],["許委員宇甄：對，我覺得要推廣啦！"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：我們會把原住民族人的名譜，會用網路數位化讓大社會知道，也可以用錄音，讓一般社會可以觀看知道怎麼發音。"],["許委員宇甄：對，要不然說實在的，我們拿到您的名片，我可能也不會唸，所以我覺得這個都是需要學習。另外，我剛聽到很多委員都提出一些可能延伸的問題，本席是有想到一個，您可以看一下，目前臺胞證的部分，各位可以看到臺胞證的樣式，其實是會有中文跟你們的這個英文，現在如果都換成原住民的姓名之後，將來是不是有可能沒有辦法到大陸，所以這個部分，內政部是不是應該要協助處理？"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員的提醒，這部分可能到時候需要陸委會跟海基會協助，因為這個需要協商……"],["許委員宇甄：對，這個部分我覺得……"],["林部長右昌：我覺得這的確是一個新產生的課題，所以我們會把它列進來。"],["許委員宇甄：是，可能需要這兩個部會共同來幫原住民解決這個問題。"],["林部長右昌：謝謝委員，因為這個不是內政部的權責範圍……"],["許委員宇甄：對、對，我知道。"],["林部長右昌：不過我們會跟院來做報告跟反映。"],["許委員宇甄：另外再請教部長，您有沒有去過大陸？"],["林部長右昌：我曾經去過。"],["許委員宇甄：所以您也是有臺胞證，所以……"],["林部長右昌：早就失效了。"],["許委員宇甄：請問你擔不擔心個資外洩的問題？"],["林部長右昌：個資的問題，我們自己國內的……"],["許委員宇甄：像數位身分證的暫緩，就是因為擔心個資的問題……"],["林部長右昌：是！"],["許委員宇甄：比如像這個部分，您會不會擔心？"],["林部長右昌：委員所謂的個資指的是？"],["許委員宇甄：我大概跟部長報告一下，我們現在申請臺胞證，您知道要附什麼證件嗎？"],["林部長右昌：因為我已經很久遠了，不是很知道。"],["許委員宇甄：我告訴你有身分證、護照跟照片，這是一般狀況，可是有一個很特別的狀況，在2023年的時候規定雙胞胎一定要有詳細的戶籍謄本。請問部長，這是要申請臺胞證，請問大陸怎麼會知道申請人是不是雙胞胎？"],["林部長右昌：這個課題我不是很清楚，我並沒有特別掌握，如果司長瞭解的話，是不是請司長來說明一下？"],["陳代理司長子和：原則上大陸應該不會知道他有沒有雙胞胎，我在猜他只是一個律定的原則，如果你有雙胞胎或者是雙胞胎姊妹……"],["許委員宇甄：沒有，我知道就有來陳情的，因為他本身是雙胞胎的其中一位，是哥哥去申請，結果弟弟也要附上戶籍謄本這樣才可以，我們也很訝異為什麼大陸那邊會知道他是不是雙胞胎。所以這讓我衍生想到一個問題，我們在111年10月有發生駭客在網上銷售兩千三百萬的戶政個資，而且個資的資料非常地詳細，包括身分證字號、姓名、家庭成員、戶籍跟原住民族身分別，理論上這個應該是內政部戶政的個資，為什麼大陸方面會有這方面的資料？我在此嚴重地懷疑是不是當時的個資因為洩漏出去，所以在2023年大陸那邊才會要求雙胞胎也要附上戶籍謄本，當時個資外洩的部分，請問內政部現在到底有沒有查清楚？到底是誰洩漏出去的？"],["林部長右昌：我在去年的時候對上一屆的委員，其實已經說明過多次，這已經查清楚了，法務部也查清楚了，並不是內政部的戶役政系統直接流出去，也不是遭駭客入侵……"],["許委員宇甄：那是什麼樣的狀況？"],["林部長右昌：因為全國有七十幾個機關在使用戶役政系統，每一年都在使用，他們調查大概有可能是從這些使用的機關……"],["許委員宇甄：所以目前還沒查到是哪一個機關洩漏出去，是嗎？"],["林部長右昌：他們有幾個方向，不過因為法務部還在持續調查。"],["許委員宇甄：今天本席是點出這個問題，我很訝異為什麼大陸會知道我們的國人是不是雙胞胎，而要求他附上戶籍謄本，這個部分可能……"],["林部長右昌：因為不瞭解這個個案的狀況。"],["許委員宇甄：可能還是要請你們查清楚，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["主席：謝謝許宇甄委員的質詢，謝謝部長、謝謝谷縱副主委。","繼續我們請黃建賓委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":72,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-16","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","張智倫","黃仁","林倩綺"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 等21人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe\n等16人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.8153437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.2078437500000003,"end":4.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.130968750000001,"end":44.985968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.36721875,"end":8.51909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.21409375,"end":16.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.11659375,"end":19.234718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":46.94346875,"end":57.945968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.59159375,"end":57.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":58.064093750000005,"end":66.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.22346875000001,"end":64.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":66.78846875,"end":70.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.61909375,"end":75.76596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.06971875,"end":79.78221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.79909375000001,"end":79.81596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":79.81596875000001,"end":92.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.60909375,"end":81.16596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.65534375,"end":81.97596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.70534375000001,"end":86.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.05971875,"end":86.14409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.88221875,"end":88.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.62409375,"end":93.82221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.82221875,"end":94.17659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":94.04159375,"end":115.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.96034375,"end":101.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":115.72596875,"end":118.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.75971875,"end":115.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":115.77659375,"end":116.14784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":118.37534375000001,"end":118.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.54409375,"end":119.65784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.94471875,"end":126.37409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.20534375000001,"end":128.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.64409375000001,"end":127.97721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":128.11221875,"end":136.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.93034375000002,"end":132.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.08596875,"end":134.10284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.13659375,"end":134.42346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.03096875,"end":152.47971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":137.78159375,"end":137.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":154.45409375,"end":158.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":158.16659375,"end":162.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.11971875,"end":161.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.64284375,"end":167.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":167.85284375,"end":168.73034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.73034375,"end":168.83159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":168.83159375000002,"end":180.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":168.93284375000002,"end":169.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.91096875000002,"end":173.96159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.96159375000002,"end":174.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.19784375,"end":174.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.30659375000002,"end":199.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.69409375,"end":184.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.04409375,"end":188.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.23784375000002,"end":188.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.48596875,"end":193.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.90284375000002,"end":215.84534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.88971875000001,"end":202.21034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.26721875,"end":218.15721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.00096875000003,"end":225.64971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":225.95346875,"end":233.31096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.49659375000002,"end":236.34846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":237.02346875,"end":238.01909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.06534375,"end":241.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":241.64721875,"end":252.26159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.13221875000002,"end":243.30096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":246.96284375000002,"end":247.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.73471875,"end":249.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.15659375,"end":251.08034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":252.02534375000002,"end":257.86409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":252.83534375000002,"end":254.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.12159375,"end":264.52971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.01971875000004,"end":262.43721875},{"speaker":"SP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Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra"},{"start":33.624,"end":36.289,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具、「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具"},{"start":47.38,"end":69.855,"text":"根委員報告。對於大社會對於原住民族文字這個認知或是認識的部分,這是我們菸米會會持續再去做推廣的部分。所以我們在對於護證單位的這個工作呢,我們也訂定一個工作指南給他們做參考。如果我們族人去恢復傳統姓名的話,他們也可以做一些認識跟參考。"},{"start":70.823,"end":93.516,"text":"對,所以針對戶政還有跟這個民政的部分,這相關的這個,比如說你們大概覺得要多久的時間才能夠處理好這個問題?我跟你們報告,我個人認為其實這是一個,這是一個要持續進行的,其實包括我個人都需要學習,雖然我有阿美族的名字,但是說實在其他語族我也不會念。"},{"start":94.417,"end":114.948,"text":"但是我覺得這個就是讓社會有一個這樣子的一個瞭解認識跟認同那這樣子對於我們原住民族的文化跟習俗真的整個大的社會才有辦法彼此瞭解彼此瞭解的時候才不會有有一些這個誤會啊誤解那這個可以促進整個社會的這個和諧"},{"start":116.008,"end":140.363,"text":"我覺得這個是非常重要關鍵的一步那政府機關比如說在我們整個文官的體系裡面我們內政部所俠管的這個系統其實我們要學其實這個可能需要一個比較長的時間但是我認為是說從今年我們就要啟動我們修法完之後希望也能夠定出一個大概的時程也讓我們所有原住民的朋友大家能夠知道"},{"start":140.723,"end":147.315,"text":"二、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例第二條及第〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":154.5,"end":170.668,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具、「姓名條例第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":180.853,"end":203.114,"text":"傳統名字拼音系統音譯規範指引。」這個部分我們會把原住民族人的這個族名的這個族人名譜會用網路數位化給大社會知道那包括也可以有錄音讓一般社會可以再看要不然說實在我們拿到您的名片我可能也不會念所以我覺得這個都是需要學習"},{"start":203.795,"end":217.902,"text":"第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":219.002,"end":231.836,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":239.253,"end":266.81,"text":"內政部應協助處理這部分可能到時候需要陸委會跟海期會因為這需要協商我覺得這的確是一個新產生的課題這可能需要這兩個部會來去共同來去幫我們的原住民解決這個問題這個部分謝謝委員因為這不是內政部的權責範圍不過我們會來跟院來做報告跟反應另外再請教您就部長您有沒有去過大陸"},{"start":267.899,"end":274.725,"text":"我曾經去過所以您也是有台胞症嗎?早就失效了那請問你擔不擔心這個個資的外洩的問題?個資的問題我們自己國內的像數位身份證的暫緩就是因為擔心個資的問題嗎?那比如像這個部分您會不會擔心?"},{"start":291.204,"end":316.349,"text":"各支因為你所謂的各支是指的是我大概跟部長報告一下就是說我們現在申請台胞證您知道要附什麼證件嗎因為我已經很久遠了不是很知道我告訴你有身份證護照跟照片這是一般狀況可是有一個很特別的狀況就是在2023年的時候規定雙胞胎一定要有詳細的戶籍藤本請問部長"},{"start":319.051,"end":324.898,"text":"為什麼這就是要申請胎胞證的話請問大陸怎麼會知道申請人是不是雙胞胎這個我請這一個課題我不是很清楚並沒有特別掌握是不是請司長如果他了解的話來說明一下"},{"start":337.689,"end":353.616,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第二條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":357.117,"end":367.945,"text":"結果要地底也要附上這個戶籍藤本這樣才可以那可是我們也很很很訝異說為什麼大陸那邊會知道他是不是雙胞胎所以這讓我衍生的想到一個問題就在我們在111年10月的時候有發生駭客在網上銷售我們2300萬的這個戶證的個資而且這個個資的資料非常的詳細包括身份證字號、姓名、家庭成員、戶籍跟原住民族身分別"},{"start":385.817,"end":411.649,"text":"所以這個理論上應該是內政部的這個護證的這個個資那為什麼大陸方面會有這方面的所以我在這邊嚴重的懷疑是不是當時的個資因為洩漏出去所以在2023年這個大陸那邊才會要求雙胞胎也要附上戶籍藤本所以當時的個資的部分外洩的部分請問內政部現在到底有沒有查清楚到底是誰洩漏出去"},{"start":412.07,"end":417.784,"text":"委員跟您報告這個我在去年的時候其實已經說明過多次在上一屆的委員"},{"start":420.608,"end":440.644,"text":"這個資料並不是,已經查清楚了,法務部也查清楚了,並不是內政部我們的護意證系統直接流出去,也不是遭駭客的入侵。那是什麼樣的狀況?這個他們調查大概有可能,有可能是因為使用護意證的系統在全國有70幾個機關,每一年都在使用。"},{"start":443.286,"end":468.815,"text":"所以有可能是從這些使用的機關所以目前還沒查到是哪一個機關洩漏出去了就對了他有一些方向不過那個法務部因為他們還在持續調查所以今天本期是點出這個問題就是說我很訝異說為什麼大陸會知道我們的國人是不是雙胞胎而已要求他附上戶籍騰本因為不了解這個個案的一個狀況對可能還是要請你們要查清楚謝謝"},{"start":470.617,"end":474.388,"text":"二條條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra 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Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":176.579,"end":203.357,"text":"大社會大眾認識臺灣原住民。我們非常支持那我也覺得這是一個非常自信的展現但是我們擔心的是在接下去我們要再進一步的時候我們在生活上所會遇到的問題我現在就請教你嘛除了銀行開戶除了你的護照那有時候甚至可能要到警察局這個警察人員在"},{"start":205.305,"end":212.15,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":229.895,"end":250.812,"text":"你會不會擔心有一點遇到會有一點不方便的事情你可以提出來現在提出來原則上因為我改恢復傳統名字很久了所以我說再進一步生活上是用這個那其實就是像我們一般就是傳統姓名恢復之後當然在護照上有時候就因為他會直接把你中文用"},{"start":251.693,"end":269.301,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":272.122,"end":276.189,"text":"二、審查委員彭佳琳等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。三、審查委員彭佳琳等21人擬具〈姓名條例第二條及第〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員彭佳琳等21人擬具〉案。"},{"start":287.293,"end":291.639,"text":"二、審查委員規費部分條文修正草案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具"},{"start":305.117,"end":329.969,"text":"第三個是我們希望恢復傳統姓名能夠便利性稱如王美惠委員提到就是單一窗口的部分其實我們延民會也在檢討這個部分因為未來我們也希望我們地方的延民單位也能夠配合就是可以成為我們主要恢復傳統姓名的單一窗口未來族人也不要到監理站又到不遵守對這是我們要努力的方向對謝謝鼓動副主委我想今天這個"},{"start":331.109,"end":356.312,"text":"希望這個原民會針對這個姓名條例之後要提出所有的需求面對我們原住民朋友他們如果恢復他們的姓名的話生活上所會碰到的問題我們請內政部一併跟上來來一起來一起來讓這個事情更進步謝謝謝謝委員好非常謝謝博焱委員謝謝再一次召委再次謝謝民進黨的委員的朋友們幫我們設想了非常多"}]}},{"id":"152045","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152045","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db109908126994199e3a1f61ce136a0fb9155be169921a0a71778d6bc62b0328a145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃捷","委員發言時間":"10:28:23 - 10:35:24","影片長度":"00:07:01","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；上開議案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-16"},"duration":421,"end_time":"2024-05-02T10:35:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T10:28:23+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":368,"blocks":[["黃委員捷：（10時28分）好，謝謝主席。我們先請內政部部長。"],["主席：有請林部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["黃委員捷：部長好，首先先請教一下這個姓名條例，因為其實在4月1號的時候，我就有質詢過了，我那時候質詢是有關我們單列族名的進度如何，當時其實原民會夷將主委他有給我一個正面的承諾，他是說希望今年有機會先用函釋的方式，也說會帶回跟部裡來討論，看看可不可以先來解套單列族名的問題。當時主委是這樣承諾我的，他說如果這個函釋一下來，他馬上就要去改名，我相信其實原民會的態度也很清楚了，這邊我當然要再請教一下，我們部裡有沒有在4月1號之後有新的進度？什麼時候會先把這個函釋做出來？還是說，你們在這個過渡期，就是姓名條例修正之後，以及在所有技術上克服之前，你們這中間有什麼還能做的呢？"],["林部長右昌：好，跟委員報告，我們內政部在3月28號已經有把這一個原民會要函釋的文字回給原民會，這個必須要做一些預告，預告的一個時間可能要請原民會來做說明。"],["黃委員捷：好，那我們請原民會來說明。"],["主席：谷縱副主委，謝謝。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：跟委員報告，有關於這個預告的部分，我們在4月30號已經預告了，預計預告到5月6號，屆時我們會跟內政部會銜來發布解釋令。"],["黃委員捷：好，聽起來已經是蠻有進度的，在5月6號之後就可以有一個相關的發布，函釋就可以發布了嗎？"],["林部長右昌：函釋之後會公告。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長、謝謝副主委。再來，我就是要請教一些具體的部分，其實剛剛巧慧委員也有提到說即便我們今天姓名條例通過，之後二、三讀，或者是說這個函釋下來之後，其實中間還有一些行政作業，這個行政作業確實是需要一些技術上的克服，我想問的是這中間你們大概準備的狀況怎麼樣？接下來發布之後，是不是戶政單位，然後相關的，不只是所有的行政機關、地方政府，到時候有沒有已經做好規劃要去溝通，以及一些作業上的準備了？"],["林部長右昌：跟委員報告，我們有預做一些準備，不過因為這涉及的層面其實相當廣，所以剛剛有報告過，我們需要一點時間，細節部分我請司長做說明。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝司長。其實，我最想知道的是，如果今天你們函釋過了，然後我們今天姓名條例也送出，之後也二、三讀了，大概什麼時候是可以正式上路的？你們整個作業期要多久？"],["陳代理司長子和：有關緊急版更的部分，我們已經預做因應，讓這個姓名條例或者是函釋過的時候，可以緊急讓原住民朋友們馬上來登記，這個部分，我們會緊急版更，後續因為牽涉到的一些項目非常的多……"],["黃委員捷：沒錯。"],["陳代理司長子和：比如每一個申請書裡面要讓它單列羅馬拼音的部分，這個我們都要去檢討，統計的資料也要去做檢討，所以我們大概規劃按照不同層次的時間來版更。"],["黃委員捷：所以沒有一個具體的時程？"],["陳代理司長子和：我們希望能夠盡量完善……"],["黃委員捷：最快什麼時候？"],["陳代理司長子和：最快的話，我們是希望給我們一點時間，就是全部完善……"],["黃委員捷：一點是幾點，多少點？"],["陳代理司長子和：給我們一點時間。"],["黃委員捷：對啊，可不可以給大家期待一下，我們這整個作業的時程大概什麼時候？"],["林部長右昌：是，跟委員報告，因為今天委員提案修這個法律，我們之前在行政上面做了一些準備的工作，沒有錯，不過這個需要更全面來做檢視，因為這個牽扯到的部會跟機關真的是很多。緊急應用函釋的部分，我們可以先走，但剛剛在講，我個人比較擔心的是，是不是會有一些牽扯到其他的部會還沒有對接上的？因為這個不只是橫向的部會，還牽扯到中央跟地方……"],["黃委員捷：是的，地方縣市也要趕快先去溝通。"],["林部長右昌：地方的部分，因為現在法律還沒有通過，所以地方包括我們的行政人員，其實他也不熟悉這一塊，所以他可能還需要有一些教育訓練等等，這樣可以把工作做得更好，跟你做說明。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長，那我們就趕快加速。"],["林部長右昌：我們會儘快。"],["黃委員捷：最後還有一點時間，我請教一下，因為其實2022年10月時，憲法法庭有宣判一個釋字，就是我們平埔原住民在原住民身分法中，如果沒有讓他們取得原住民身分是違憲的，然後也說希望三年內要完成修法。我想請教一下原民會，在這個違憲的公告出來之後，你們有沒有開始做相關的準備了？目前手上的進度草案在那裡？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：跟委員報告，我們這個已經有先做委託研究跟意見的徵詢，我們很快就會在時間內將草案提到院裡面。"],["黃委員捷：時間內是？因為現在已經過了一年半囉，所以你們是什麼時候研究出來……"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：我們大概應該在8、9月就會提送。"],["黃委員捷：所以等於是下個會期，你們就會把你們的版本送進來，我們就可以把這個釋憲的部分修正通過。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：是。"],["黃委員捷：好，很感謝。目前當然就是希望我們原民會可以加速這部分，因為其實時間也蠻趕的，從2022年，它也是只有給三年的時間，三年希望修正通過，那我相信這個也是很多平埔族原住民希望可以趕快做轉型正義的部分。當然，最後還是希望我們內政部在這整個時程上可以趕快告訴大家具體的時間是什麼，這個是大家最想知道的，感謝部裡其實都很支持單列族名可以來通過。"],["林部長右昌：委員，跟你報告一下，我想我們會把牽扯到所有行政機關的部分要處理的這些細節做一個彙整、會條列，各個機關單位所需要改善或者處理的時間，我們也會跟他們討論之後把它列出來，進行相關的管制，之後可以提供給委員來做參考，謝謝。"],["黃委員捷：好，謝謝部長、謝謝副主委。"],["主席：謝謝黃捷委員的質詢，謝謝部長、謝謝谷縱副主委。","繼續請李柏毅委員質詢，李柏毅委員質詢結束後，我們休息5分鐘，因為我看現場，委員不在，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":72,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-16","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra 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Tahovecahe\n等16人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":2.17409375,"end":2.6297187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":3.03471875,"end":34.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.080343750000004,"end":60.86534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.24034375000001,"end":70.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":70.65284375,"end":81.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.63096875000001,"end":76.03596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":78.28034375,"end":78.76971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.06471875000001,"end":82.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":83.86596875000001,"end":85.11471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.10221875,"end":84.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.13596875,"end":84.37221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":84.37221875,"end":84.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.11471875000001,"end":87.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.84846875000001,"end":92.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.01221875,"end":96.18471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":93.06284375,"end":93.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":96.70784375000001,"end":102.42846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":102.51284375,"end":102.98534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":103.79534375,"end":105.65159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":107.18721875,"end":108.58784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.94221875000001,"end":142.59096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.69221875,"end":148.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":149.02034375000002,"end":161.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.36159375,"end":152.90159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.06159375000001,"end":155.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":161.15346875,"end":173.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":173.97846875000002,"end":175.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":178.70346875,"end":212.43659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.93659375000001,"end":199.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":213.36471875,"end":215.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.30534375000002,"end":217.39784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":216.50346875000002,"end":217.73534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.42721875,"end":219.13596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.67596875,"end":228.28221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":223.69221875000002,"end":227.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":229.37909375,"end":234.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":234.72846875000002,"end":271.68471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.68471875,"end":275.22846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":272.46096875,"end":273.27096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":273.86159375,"end":289.99409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":285.82596875,"end":286.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":287.09159375,"end":288.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":288.91409375,"end":305.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":291.05721875,"end":292.18784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":306.16034375000004,"end":308.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":308.97846875000005,"end":318.32721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.08221875000004,"end":329.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":329.58284375,"end":332.21534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.21534375000005,"end":332.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":333.46409375,"end":336.70409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":335.23596875000004,"end":338.81346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":339.08346875,"end":348.12846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":341.61471875,"end":341.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":343.21784375000004,"end":343.53846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":346.84596875,"end":347.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.12846875,"end":348.41534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":348.73596875000004,"end":367.65284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.20971875000004,"end":368.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.90159375,"end":382.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":382.99221875,"end":390.82221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":391.39596875,"end":410.97096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":410.97096875000005,"end":412.84409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.99596875000003,"end":417.67034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.46346875,"end":418.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":418.48034375000003,"end":418.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.96971875,"end":419.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":419.96534375000005,"end":420.28596875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":3.26,"end":23.055,"text":"部長好,首先請教一下這個姓名條例,因為其實在4月1號的時候我就有質詢過了,那我那時候質詢說這個我們單列族名的進度如何,當時其實我們原民會以這樣主委他有給我一個正面的承諾,他是說希望今年有機會先用韓式的方式,那也會說會帶回跟部裡來討論,"},{"start":25.197,"end":39.511,"text":"三條條文修正草案案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案案。七、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":42.654,"end":60.597,"text":"在4月1號之後有新的進度那有沒有什麼時候會先把這個函式做出來還是說你們在這個過渡期就是姓名條例修正之後以及所有的技術上克服之前你們這中間有什麼還能做的呢"},{"start":64.681,"end":82.046,"text":"公務員報告我們內政部在3月28號已經有把這個原名會要函式的文字回給原名會那這個應該這個必須要做一些預告那預告的一個時間可能要請原名會來做說明好那我們請原名會來說明"},{"start":84.039,"end":105.012,"text":"國中副主委。有關於這個預告的部分,我們在4月30號已經預告了,那一級預告到5月6號,屆時我們會跟內政部來會選來發佈解釋令。好,那聽起來已經是蠻有進度的,在5月6號之後就可以有一個相關的發佈,大概是韓式就可以發佈了嗎?對,韓式之後會公告。"},{"start":108.973,"end":127.768,"text":"好,好,謝謝,謝謝部長,謝謝副主委。那再來我就是要請教一些具體的,因為其實剛剛巧惠委員也有提到說,因為即便我們今天姓名條例通過,那之後二、三讀,或者是說這個函式下來之後,其實中間還有一些行政作業,那這個行政作業確實是需要一些技術上的"},{"start":129.169,"end":141.362,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":149.076,"end":164.321,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":179.335,"end":202.203,"text":"有關緊急緊急板根的部分我們已經預作因應可以讓這個姓名條例或者是函式過的時候可以緊急來讓原住民朋友們他們可以來馬上來登記這個部分我們會緊急板根那後續因為牽涉到的一些項目非常的多每一個申請書裡面要讓他單列羅馬拼音的部分"},{"start":202.923,"end":217.514,"text":"這個我們都要去檢討統計的資料也要去做檢討所以我們大概規劃按照不同的層次的時間來板根所以沒有一個具體的時程?我們希望能夠盡量完善最快什麼時候?最快的話我們是希望給我們一點時間就是全部完善一點是幾點?多少點?"},{"start":229.574,"end":251.912,"text":"對阿可不可以給大家期待一下說我們這整個作業的時程大概什麼時候是跟委員報告因為今天我們在提案這個委員提案在修這個法律那我們之前行政上面我們做了一些準備的工作沒有錯不過這個需要更全面來做檢視因為這個牽扯到的部分機關真的是很多"},{"start":252.412,"end":271.412,"text":"那緊急的這個應用含釋的部分我們可以先走但剛剛在講我們我比較擔心我個人比較擔心的是是不是會有一些因為牽扯到其他的部會還沒有對接上的因為這個不只是橫向的部會這個還牽扯到中央跟地方"},{"start":271.832,"end":285.929,"text":"是的,地方審視也要趕快審視因為現在法律還沒有通過所以地方,包括我們行政的人員其實他也不熟悉這一塊所以他可能還需要有一些教育訓練等等"},{"start":287.43,"end":297.84,"text":"姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等21人擬具:「姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":309.051,"end":331.797,"text":"那我想問一下請教一下園民會在這個違憲的公告出來之後你們有沒有開始做相關的準備了目前手上的進度草案在哪裡根本報告我們這個已經有先做委託研究跟意見的徵詢那草案我們很快就會在時間內趕快提到院裡面時間內是因為現在已經過了一年半囉"},{"start":333.607,"end":338.162,"text":"所以你們研究是什麼時候研究出來?我們大概在8、9月就會提送"},{"start":339.13,"end":367.471,"text":"所以8、9等於是下個會期你們就會把你們的版本送進來我們就可以把這個釋憲的部分把它修正通過是好那很感謝那目前當然就是希望我們員民會可以加速這部分因為其實時間也蠻趕的從2022年那他也是給只有給三年的時間嘛三年希望修正通過那我相信這個也是很多平埔族的原住民希望可以趕快做轉型正義的部分"},{"start":368.231,"end":390.448,"text":"好那當然最後還是希望說我們內政部在呃就是這整個時程上可以趕快告訴大家具體的時間是什麼這個是大家最想知道的那感謝部裡其實都很支持我們單列族民這個可以來通過呃委員跟對不起委員跟你報告一下哈我想我們呃會把堅得到所有的行政機關的部分要處理"},{"start":391.391,"end":393.413,"text":"審查委員高金素梅等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案》案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例第二條及第"}]}},{"id":"152035","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152035","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1dc14b90ac9e60450a1f61ce136a0fb9155be169921a0a7176e4a7cbb296d415e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王美惠","委員發言時間":"10:19:58 - 10:27:50","影片長度":"00:07:52","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:30:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議（事由：一、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案。三、審查委員伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案。【詢答及處理；上開議案如經院會復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":16,"committees":[15],"id":"委員會-11-1-15-16"},"duration":472,"end_time":"2024-05-02T10:27:50+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T10:19:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":332,"blocks":[["王委員美惠：（10時19分）主席，我們請部長、副主委。"],["主席：請林部長還有谷縱副主委，謝謝。"],["林部長右昌：委員好。"],["王委員美惠：早安。部長、副主委，我們長久以來看到我們的召委對原住民的關心跟付出，我覺得每一個政策不分你我、也不分什麼黨，只是把他的族群、他的百姓照顧得這麼好，他們的權利一定要保持。剛好我們有很多同事坐在這裡的時候，看到我們今天的召委為了原住民跟伍麗華委員來發聲、來提案，我覺得非常的高興。我們就是要讓住在臺灣這塊土地的百姓，無論是來自哪裡，都應該要照顧他們才對。所以今天看到我們原住民的提案裡面，本席要跟你探討的就是，剛才所說的應該大家都沒有意見，不過未來應該是司長比較瞭解，我們所有的單位，如果今天通過之後，何時才有辦法實施這個問題的存在？"],["主席：好，請戶政司。"],["陳代理司長子和：報告委員，我們戶役政系統其實我們已經有在研議要緊急版更來因應單列羅馬拼音的事情，所以第一階段我們會在5月17號就來緊急版更，如果這個過的話……"],["王委員美惠：5月17號嗎？"],["陳代理司長子和：我們第一階段只有先版更三、四個部分，比如說姓名變更登記，他的身分證、戶口名簿、戶籍謄本這些我們會在第一階段先緊急版更，讓他馬上可以登記，那後續也會再陸續來配合……"],["王委員美惠：最主要是這個後續的部分，差不多要多久？"],["陳代理司長子和：後續的話，我們是希望說……"],["王委員美惠：來，請部長。"],["林部長右昌：委員，我是這樣建議，雖然我們有預做一些準備，不過這個姓名的整個系統……"],["王委員美惠：不是啦！就算有準備，也要有行動，不是準備而已。"],["林部長右昌：不是，委員，我向你報告，這個說實在要非常的慎重，因為在開始啟動之後，這個不容出一丁點的狀況跟差錯，所以我們雖然有一個緊急的方案，剛剛司長在講5月17號，不過我的建議是，如果我們修法可以非常順利通過的話，是不是容許我們行政部門有一點時間再把它檢視得更完整，然後我們再讓它上路？這個時間當然不會太長，我們會跟各機關單位來做討論，然後也會尊重委員的建議。"],["王委員美惠：因為我覺得今天大家應該是沒有什麼意見，一定會趕快推動這個部分，我覺得這個要趕快，因為剛才副主委說有一些問題存在，我覺得這些要去克服，因為長久以來我們對原住民的照顧，說實在的，我相信大家都有看到小英政府將近8年來對原住民的照顧是非常的多，尤其原住民語言在2017年也納入國家的語言。現在原住民要改姓名也是非常的重要，所以本席要跟你們討論的就是，未來要換身分證就要去戶政單位，要換護照就要去外交部，要換駕照就要去監理站，不過你們有沒有想到原住民會不會願意花這麼冗長的時間？要去這裡、又要去那裡，要向很多單位申請換發，你們有沒有一個規劃？再來，關於換發的費用，你們的規劃是要由他們支出還是我們政府可以協助他們？來，部長說一下。"],["林部長右昌：我想現在我們在換發所有證件的時候，都有相關規費的規定。"],["王委員美惠：對。"],["林部長右昌：所以原則上應該是照現在規費的規定。第二，剛剛為什麼說我們需要一點時間，剛剛有聽到，我們外交部改護照是一回事，但是我們要通知、要通告其他的國家，這需要一點時間，不然到時候戶口換了、護照也換了，但是出國萬一出狀況，就不是我們樂意看到的，所以讓我們有一點時間把它整理好。"],["王委員美惠：部長，我們一定要處理齊全，才有辦法上路。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["王委員美惠：在這裡面我最擔憂的就是，這麼多族有這麼多的文字，是不是你們每一個單位都有辦法去克服？像以前的時代，包括現在，我們如果去戶政報一個名字，有時候完全打不出來就是打不出來。"],["林部長右昌：我們戶政的戶役政系統現在沒有問題，字都打得出來。"],["王委員美惠：因為我就是比較擔心，剛才我們也有說到這麼多族的文字，如何在打字過程中可以讓它正確，不然實在光一個字就天差地別。"],["林部長右昌：是。"],["王委員美惠：因為我覺得這非常的重要，還有剛才我提到未來這個費用，雖然部長說照原本的方法這樣下去做，我們是不是可以研議一下，未來要換照是不是不用牽涉到這麼多單位，可以怎樣做讓他們比較方便？"],["林部長右昌：我們現在有一個規定，剛剛在講就是照規費。"],["王委員美惠：對。"],["林部長右昌：但是我們原住民族人恢復傳統族名的第一次登記是不用費用。"],["王委員美惠：不用費用就是每一個換照單位都不用費用，是嗎？"],["林部長右昌：只有我們內政部的部分，就是他換戶籍的部分。"],["王委員美惠：內政部。請副主委，本席問你，所有的單位針對我們原住民的換照資料，像身分證不用費用，但是護照呢？駕照呢？這是非常重要，所以你要為原住民的權利和福利打拼，請你回答。"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：我想針對恢復傳統姓名的便利性，包括規費的部分，我們跟各部會有召開過協調會，有些部會在這部分是還沒有同意，不過這個就是我們要努力的方向，剛剛委員提的部分，我們會……"],["王委員美惠：對，這樣你差不多要多久可以將資料給本席？"],["谷縱．喀勒芳安副主任委員：我們兩周內就將執行情形給委員。"],["王委員美惠：好，主席，拜託一下，謝謝。"],["主席：好，非常謝謝美惠委員，愛你喔！謝謝。谷縱副主委，今天美惠委員在這邊已經給你力量了，希望你跟其他各部會協調協商的時候，也讓他們清楚知道民進黨委員是非常支持的，因為這次我們修改了姓名條例，會有一些費用的產生，儘量的去爭取，好不好？謝謝。","繼續我們請黃捷委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":72,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-15-16","speakers":["高金素梅","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","蘇巧慧","張宏陸","李柏毅","黃捷","許宇甄","黃建賓","麥玉珍","吳琪銘","牛煦庭","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","丁學忠","徐欣瑩","張智倫","黃仁","林倩綺"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133801_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期內政委員會第16次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案；二、審查委員鄭天財 Sra\nKacaw 等21人擬具「姓名條例部分條文修正草案」案；三、審查委員伍麗華 Saidhai Tahovecahe\n等16人擬具「姓名條例第二條及第四條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133801_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.00971875,"end":3.0515937500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.15284375,"end":6.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.282843750000001,"end":9.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.83971875,"end":9.160343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.852218750000002,"end":10.40909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":10.40909375,"end":10.864718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.915343750000002,"end":17.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.83409375,"end":20.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.42846875,"end":24.347843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.70221875,"end":27.570968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.874718750000003,"end":33.35909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.83159375,"end":36.666593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.071593750000005,"end":38.69159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.518468750000004,"end":42.40409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.876593750000005,"end":45.98159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.28534375,"end":48.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.664718750000006,"end":50.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.85846875,"end":52.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.596593750000004,"end":56.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.84909375,"end":58.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.127218750000004,"end":62.04659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.265968750000006,"end":62.805968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.025343750000005,"end":64.45971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.71284375,"end":66.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.37909375000001,"end":68.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.62784375000001,"end":70.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.65284375,"end":74.01096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.63534375,"end":76.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.40721875,"end":90.10971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.59846875000001,"end":95.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.85534375,"end":113.98784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.88284375,"end":111.28784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.85721875,"end":113.76846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.22409375000001,"end":131.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.16659375,"end":133.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.02284375000002,"end":133.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.03971875000002,"end":133.07346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.07346875000002,"end":133.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.14096875,"end":133.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.20846875,"end":134.37284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.81596875,"end":135.06471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.33471875,"end":137.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.23284375,"end":141.15659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.85721875000002,"end":139.87409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":139.87409375000001,"end":140.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":140.36346875,"end":149.69534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":141.17346875,"end":141.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.69596875000002,"end":146.18534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.48034375,"end":154.20096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":151.38284375,"end":151.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":153.42471875,"end":195.74721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.48784375,"end":154.99409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.69409375,"end":157.98096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.94659375,"end":162.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":166.19909375,"end":166.75596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.77659375000002,"end":170.14784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.49534375000002,"end":188.15346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.48596875,"end":193.84034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.78096875,"end":199.62846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":198.66659375,"end":199.71284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.71284375000002,"end":199.74659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":199.86471875,"end":208.30221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":201.82221875000002,"end":202.69971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.53846875000002,"end":213.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":213.11159375000003,"end":213.82034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":213.70221875000001,"end":217.43159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.68471875,"end":220.72221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.89096875,"end":222.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.62909375,"end":222.94971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.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Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例第二條及第〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":67.421,"end":89.094,"text":"條例部分條文修正草案案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案〉案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。六、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。五、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":98.378,"end":126.868,"text":"報告委員,我們呼籲這系統其實我們已經有在研議要緊急板根來因應單列羅馬拼音的事情,所以第一階段我們會在5月17號就來緊急板根,如果這個過的話,我們第一階段就先板根這個部分,比如說這個姓名變更登記嘛,他的身份證、戶口名簿、戶籍成本,這個我們會在第一階段先緊急板根,讓他可以馬上可以登記。"},{"start":127.628,"end":130.232,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具"},{"start":139.841,"end":166.499,"text":"來部長來委員我是這樣建議啦因為雖然我們有預做一些準備不過這個姓名的這個一個系統有準備要有行動啦不是準備而已啦不是委員我要報告因為這個這個說實在要非常的慎重因為你開始啟動之後這個不能不容出一點點的一個這個狀況跟差錯所以我們雖然有一個緊急的一個"},{"start":169.06,"end":170.521,"text":"五月十七日公開公開公開公開公開公開公開"},{"start":195.854,"end":200.14,"text":"因為我認為今天的大家的意見應該是無所謂的,一定會關鍵推卸這個問題。在這方面,我認為要關鍵,因為剛才副主委說,有一些問題會存在,"},{"start":211.235,"end":231.774,"text":"二條及第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":233.556,"end":251.032,"text":"二、審查委員高金素梅等24人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"},{"start":251.713,"end":277.386,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":278.339,"end":305.938,"text":"他們要支出還是我們政府可以協助他們來補充貢獻?我相信現在我們所有政經在外的時候它都有相關規費的一個規定,所以原則上應該是照現在的規費的一個規定。第二,剛才有說我們需要一點時間,剛才有聽到說我們外交部呼籲,應該是一回事,但是我們要通知、要通告其他的國家,這需要一點時間,不然的話,火候多多,"},{"start":309.041,"end":322.115,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〉案。四、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具〉案。"},{"start":328.462,"end":330.526,"text":"三、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第"},{"start":344.252,"end":357.746,"text":"現在我們護證的這個負譯證的這個系統現在沒有問題字都打得出來因為我就是很擔心因為剛才我們也有說到說這麼多座會問你的時候如何可以在我們的法律當中可以讓他正確沒有真實的質疑就聽錯了"},{"start":366.755,"end":384.94,"text":"二、審查委員鄭天財Sra Kacaw等21人擬具:「姓名條例第三條及第四條及第五條及第六條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及"},{"start":389.921,"end":412.342,"text":"我們現在有一個規定,剛剛在講這個照規範但是我們原住民的族人恢復族名傳統族名的第一次的登記是不用費用不用費用就是每一個月的單位都不用費用是嗎?只有我們內政部的部分,就是換他的內政部"},{"start":415.885,"end":426.471,"text":"三、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具〈姓名條例部分條文修正草案〉案。四、審查委員鄭天財Saidhai Tahovecahe等16人擬具〈姓名條例第二條及第"},{"start":438.319,"end":457.794,"text":"我想針對恢復傳統姓名的這個便利性包括規範的部分跟各部會有召開過協調會那有些部會在這個部分是還沒有同意不過這個就是我們要努力的方向剛剛委員提的部分我們會這樣你差不多有多久可以主流給本縣我們大概兩週內就給好我們的執行請請給委員主席拜託一下好謝謝非常謝謝每位委員"},{"start":467.227,"end":472.323,"text":"第二條及第三條及第四條及第七條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第八條及第"}]}},{"id":"15876","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15876","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fce1784ed6585ee25e9b5fa2f296a935343be8d109af184be4072ca1b09a27c3da5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會（事由：「失控的正義1─又要我們『共體時艱』！如何簡化偵查、審判訴訟程序與書類製作及人力增補」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-02","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-05-02T08:29:59+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-02T13:52:00+08:00","duration":19321,"影片長度":"05:22:01","委員發言時間":"08:29:59 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張化地院前法官李李祥助理教授圖秀琳法官李聖傑副教授林達檢察官紀凱峰法官"},{"start":2254.332,"end":2281.127,"text":"黃毓豐副教授林玉順理事長柯格中教授江世銘教授許振賢院長蕭永昌警察官"},{"start":2286.924,"end":2314.756,"text":"同時我們現在介紹機關代表司法院秘書長、吳三龍秘書長、楊浩青廳長、周梅芳廳長、陳信齊副廳長、陳奕宜廳長、謝敬惠廳長、高玉順廳長、何君豪處長、陳美童處長、法務部蔡京祥部長、"},{"start":2319.344,"end":2334.013,"text":"蔡碧仲政次檢美惠副司長邢太昭總長行政院人事總署副人事長懷旭全序部法規司司長蕾成"},{"start":2336.104,"end":2364.537,"text":"行政院主計總處、預算處、檢任視察理培員、民間司改會常務董事林永聰、常務執行委員蔡學儀先跟各位報告跟委員會及各位在場報告人事總處的處長因為開刀所以他有打電話過來說他因為開刀住院請假所以今天是由副人事長到"},{"start":2366.135,"end":2391.224,"text":"好那今天的會議主要是討論司法官這一段時間的工作量負荷過重以及制度上面是不是有所需要修改那院檢的長官都非常重視這一次的會議所以院檢長官都有親自到庭在這邊先跟各位報告這件事情好現在我們請議事人員宣讀公聽會的討論提綱"},{"start":2393.917,"end":2399.828,"text":"討論提綱1現行司法院或法務部就提升偵審效能及減輕基層工作負荷等議題"},{"start":2400.785,"end":2425.45,"text":"政策面有何待檢討及精進之處2─就精實偵查及審判訴訟程序在法制、組織架構、人員配置、作業效能方面有何具體建議或測定作為3─針對司法院及法務部進行書類簡化等政策現行具體成效如何有無應檢討及改善之處4─如何再強化訴訟外紛爭解決機制宣讀完畢"},{"start":2434.082,"end":2460.992,"text":"在邀請各位發言之前有幾點說明首先我們邀請學者專家發言發言順序依據簽到的先後順序如果有需要提前發言請先告知主席台我們會視情況酌情調整本院委員依照登記先後順序發言如果陸續到場我們會安排參差發言最後再請政府機關代表發言針對學者意見及委員的意見加以回應"},{"start":2462.739,"end":2463.695,"text":"呃"},{"start":2464.441,"end":2493.047,"text":"委會者到發言台發言那我右邊是學者專家、列席機關代表的發言那左邊就是立法院委員的發言台那公聽會主要是聽取各位學者專家的意見所以學者專家發言時間為10分鐘那本院委員發言時間5分鐘那會後還是請機關能夠把學者所提的意見然後能夠加以書面或是現在當場回覆都可以"},{"start":2497.007,"end":2513.41,"text":"先向公聽會出席的學者專家報告因為今天是否行政院的院會所以我們等一下我們先請法務部的蔡部長先行報告然後再派員代理出席公聽會那我們先請法務部蔡部長報告時間5分鐘"},{"start":2539.231,"end":2566.469,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位專家、學者、大家早很高興我們司法及法制委員會召開這樣的一個公聽會也謝謝邀請我們法務部來聆聽各位專家、學者的意見我個人也非常的重視所以我在等一下行政院運會要開始之前我也先到會來簡單的說明我們的立場"},{"start":2569.151,"end":2586.138,"text":"也對各位專家學者表示謝意與敬意那法務部等一下蔡政次還會更加的詳細說明我們的同仁也會仔細的聆聽各位的意見把他帶回去再做一個中整"},{"start":2586.918,"end":2606.524,"text":"如果可以立即可行的我們也會馬上來做事實上我們法務部也有成立一個合理化檢查官工作負擔的研議小組已經成立一段時間也都在進行那我們主要就是針對現在的工作上有沒有更能簡化的措施來研擬"},{"start":2608.965,"end":2619.155,"text":"來執行,譬如我們現在管考要加以鬆綁,讓檢察官更有充裕的時間來處理案件。那對於各項"},{"start":2620.56,"end":2640.771,"text":"案件的立稿我們也重新檢視來制定供檢察官來使用也從簡化書類裡面來著手聽取大家的意見以後不過不管是立稿或是簡化書類也要重視到當事人的權益也不能忽略掉"},{"start":2641.79,"end":2659.848,"text":"最後我們也重視科技的辦案我們也提出了科技偵查保障法的草案到行政院那邊審查應該很快的就能夠完成審議送到大院來至於還有配合的"},{"start":2661.07,"end":2673.884,"text":"通訊監察保障法也同樣一起來做修正我想這個都是有利於讓檢察官的辦案上更科技化、更科學化也更有效率"},{"start":2675.029,"end":2703.121,"text":"那至於人力的增補我們事實上早已就提出了這個法院組織法的修正希望能夠法制上做檢察官助理的一些條文但是很可惜都一直沒有完成立法程序但是面臨到現在打詐的案件這麼的暴增所以我們就很努力的向行政院先爭取到臨時的人力檢察官助理"},{"start":2704.122,"end":2723.159,"text":"一百名現在已經在運作也獲得了基層檢察官的肯定那我想這個效果很好我們的繼續爭取今年馬上就會再增補一百五十名行政院已經同意了已經發文給我們所以程序還在進行當中很快就能夠實踐交給各地檢他們來做這個領選那至於"},{"start":2728.264,"end":2743.411,"text":"聽色改善,我們也是全力以赴,包括新北地檢署,我們現在已經獲得了行政院的同意新北地檢署跟新北地院一起在過去的土層彈藥庫要重新來興建"},{"start":2746.972,"end":2774.933,"text":"那至於彰化地檢也是已經馬上就要完工了那臺中的檢查大樓包括臺中高分檢、臺中地檢也已經動工了所以對於工作環境的改善我們也不遺餘力那因為時間的關係那詳細的情形等一下蔡政次還會再做進一步的說明那我們同仁也會詳細的記載各位提出的寶貴意見那以上"},{"start":2775.413,"end":2775.553,"text":"好 謝謝部長"},{"start":2801.992,"end":2822.037,"text":"我想今天院檢的長官都有來應該都是蠻重視我們要怎麼盡快去改善這個問題我覺得這是挽救士氣的一個最重要方式因為待會許正賢院長需要先離開所以我們先請許正賢院長發言"},{"start":2839.013,"end":2864.314,"text":"主席各位委員各位先進有關今天的議題其實是一個幾十年來在司法不管是審判或者是檢察界一直在討論跟一直在研究問題所以我想今天有這麼多位學者專家到場一定有非常多具體寶貴的意見那我今天因為時間關係"},{"start":2866.564,"end":2866.944,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2882.194,"end":2904.366,"text":"標題叫做荒謬的角落他主要的重點是提到法官長時間超時的工作結果司法公信力這麼低這到底是什麼問題他覺得從這個角度看做法官的工作實際是一個荒謬的工作大家付出這麼多但是得到的回饋這麼少"},{"start":2906.511,"end":2927.513,"text":"我從這個地方當時就深深有感而發真的他提到的是過去跟現在司法界不管是審判或檢察界的一個問題我個人在司法界我擔任法官十幾年後來有一位學長說我是司法界的逃兵我今天就用一個逃兵的角度來"},{"start":2929.934,"end":2955.806,"text":"說明一下我對今天我們這個議題的看法那我當然知道有一句話就是危機就是一種轉機我看到的司法問題從過去到現在我認為有一個共通現象就是欠缺效能沒有效率效能其實簡單來講就是是不是做對的事情效率簡單來講是不是以對的方法做事情"},{"start":2957.762,"end":2980.286,"text":"我認為要探討所有問題之前要有正確的觀念沒有正確觀念後面做的這些滋味末節或細微的改變呢其實效率都是有限可能都是事倍功半所以效率我這邊講的其實就是你要有好的方法把工作做好所以效率講的是重視方法"},{"start":2981.966,"end":2990.207,"text":"效能講的是你要選擇好的任務達成目標所以效能這件事情簡單來講是要重視結果你要選對目標"},{"start":2992.745,"end":3017.903,"text":"那著名的管理學大師彼得杜拉克他也用一個非常簡單的方式就是我剛剛表達的效率是以對的方法做事效能是做對的事情當兩個沒辦法兼顧的時候杜拉克說要先著重效能再設法提高效率也就是要先做對的事情對的事情目標選對了你才能夠用正確的方法做好事情"},{"start":3020.104,"end":3041.971,"text":"這位是德國一位學者後來曾經擔任聯邦司法部的部長他提過說在現代法治國家當中司法部門或法院管理不僅應該重視效能做對的事情同時也要強調效率所以沒有重視效能也缺乏效率的司法部門他當然是一個很有問題"},{"start":3043.291,"end":3043.831,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3069.701,"end":3069.881,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3090.808,"end":3108.28,"text":"主要是一省地方法院的法官他的工作型態做一個調查這個大概是我們國內在審判體系第一個比較用一個實證的方法去做研究的他得到一個結論就是說大概法官花了將近4成的時間在撰寫判決書"},{"start":3109.326,"end":3109.406,"text":"主席"},{"start":3128.407,"end":3153.694,"text":"但是畢竟我們這改革要有一些成果自己講好不見得好外部的中立單位能夠說好這可能是一個比較重要的指標每年我們的國發會都會公告瑞士管理發展學院就是IMD它對全世界各國家的一個評比其中跟法律有關的其實就這一項在歷年來我觀察了近20年來不管是新加坡"},{"start":3155.776,"end":3156.296,"text":"新加坡始終名列前茅"},{"start":3180.618,"end":3208.664,"text":"重新思考法官的角色重新確定司法運作方式這是一個非常重要的觀念很多改革如果沒有切中要害的話我認為那個都是隔絕騷擾或是成效有限那為什麼特別提到新加坡不只他是IMD被評列為世界頂尖的司法改革的成效呢他在1990年的時候他的地方法院就數據法院要等一件案子開庭大概要等兩年"},{"start":3209.813,"end":3210.153,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3231.431,"end":3259.9,"text":"司法環境他評價說新加坡初級法案的運作成效是世界級可以成為以開發跟開發中國家進行司法現代化的楷模那我們也可以另外看到一個數據一般公眾對他的滿意度跟美國還有美國的加州法案比他是遠遠高於這些美國的法院那我再重複一次法治國家的司法人物必須要做對的事情這個是優先一個目標還有以對的方法做事"},{"start":3261.124,"end":3288.724,"text":"那我也想到說徐文榮先生有一個抽屜理論我非常的欣賞他說我們整理抽屜的時候都逐一個每一個每一個都去清去過濾花了很多時間如果用一個方法你先想好你抽屜裡面要找什麼東西你就直接去找你要找的東西那這個呢只要花兩成的心力你就可以把事情做好來那這個其實應用在我們很多做事的原則上我認為都很有啟發在管理學就有一個叫八十二十法則"},{"start":3289.565,"end":3290.045,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3312.094,"end":3312.334,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3328.243,"end":3328.844,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3348.047,"end":3358.772,"text":"一再強調一個觀念法官智慧不是在做精緻的判決書是在做出最好的判斷這個是我認為最最核心的觀念但是我們現在的現況不是這樣子"},{"start":3362.311,"end":3383.052,"text":"時間關係我很快講到底講了這麼多觀念跟我們今天會議有什麼關係如果簡單來講要解決的策略分成短中長期三個區段來看我認為我只提兩個重要方向因為我想在座的學者大家有更多寶貴的建議我只用我個人經驗跟我觀察到的"},{"start":3384.093,"end":3408.818,"text":"既然剛剛有關查到法官近4成的心力耗費在撰寫裁判書我也查了一下資料地方法院民事跟刑事案件的責服率就是沒有提起上訴的大概是各9成高院的責服率是5成刑事是6成這是一個很重要的數據讓我們看到說現在的司法體制它怎麼運作民眾的案件到法院裡面是怎麼運作的"},{"start":3410.253,"end":3411.014,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議"},{"start":3430.197,"end":3449.791,"text":"如果各位想像地方法院有九成的案件他不上訴九成的案件只宣判結論這些民眾不上訴通通不用寫理由書我覺得的確可以呢一定程度或相當高的比例呢減輕法官負擔因為裁判書寫給上級審看的那另外一個就是增援的問題"},{"start":3451.272,"end":3470.254,"text":"我最後再講一個就是說只有在當事人聲明不符的時候才提出書面理由這個不是我獨創的在新加坡有這種先例在德國民事訴訟法也有這種先例所以這個不是我個人的創建這個是世界上我們在學習的一些國家他們有不管是英美法系或是大陸法系好我最後再講"},{"start":3471.275,"end":3471.295,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3486.428,"end":3508.019,"text":"判決如果沒有上訴 法官原則上不需要製作判決理由這個在一些先進國家都已經在做 這個不是我獨創那我認為這個是剛剛的實證資料很清楚的說這一部分判決書製作是法官他的負擔很高的比例所以如果這麼做的話 我認為這是一個結構性簡化 比那一些"},{"start":3509.039,"end":3523.659,"text":"判決書的白話文化要好得多這是一個我今天要提的重點我最後呢很感慨來講前幾天不幸墜樓的士林地院理法官是政大法學院優秀的校友"},{"start":3525.941,"end":3550.897,"text":"我們非常誠切地希望李法官的離開能夠讓大家重視這個已經存在已久的問題一個法官在健全的審判環境裡面工作這個才是國家社會之福也才是人民的福氣很抱歉我今天占了各位一些時間希望我的見言能夠得到一些小小的回應 謝謝"},{"start":3553.697,"end":3582.588,"text":"好 謝謝院長那我這邊先做一個簡單的宣告就是我們今天的會議我們今天的公聽會 絕對不會只有一次因為本席這邊是假官出身的那我一定會就司法改革持續追查下去追蹤下去我不會說讓這個會議只開一次而且我們改革開始接下來一步一步我們還要去思考書記官的部分"},{"start":3583.7,"end":3599.099,"text":"助理的部分事務官的部分以及行政人員法警的部分我覺得這個我也要求辦公室以及其他友善的立委同仁我們一步一步要追下去我們要讓司法有品質第一個你要先"},{"start":3600.42,"end":3623.191,"text":"讓他有合理的工作量在沒有合理工作量的情況下這個國家或這個社會對他要求司法品質那個是不應該的 也是騙人的現在已經超過正常負荷量太多了已經不是加班就可以做得完已經不是犧牲家庭就可以做得完所以我對這一系列的做法我自己是很有感好 那我們下一位我們請蕭義宏律師"},{"start":3637.818,"end":3660.878,"text":"我建議的思考方向大概是三個第一個就是建議調整制度跟政策那我覺得這可能優於一些其他的部分比如說簡化書類處理方式我覺得這部分可能會先優於開發像自動產生書類這樣子的一個想法我後面再跟大家提到這個為什麼我會這樣認為那第二個就是我覺得就是說簡跟願這部分如果"},{"start":3661.559,"end":3661.679,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3680.43,"end":3702.339,"text":"那第三個部分 呈如剛剛委員所提到的其實除了司法官的人力缺乏之外其實還有很多輔助人力的缺乏比如說像書記官我知道很多法院 很多的地檢署書記官其實都是不足的 而且是嚴重不足的還有像法警 他們工作量其實真的是很大的當然還可能需要有檢察官助理來協助檢察官做更多的一個偵查的一個部分"},{"start":3704.146,"end":3727.632,"text":"我的第一個部分其實我想後面很多先進都有提到關於這個職權處分的部分其實甲官有一個權限是可以做職權處分的在有罪的情況之下那這是我好幾年前做了一個統計的資料我們比較台灣跟德國的一個關於終結方式的一個比較我不知道現在的數據有沒有改變我這是過去的一個數據我們可以看到就是說"},{"start":3728.712,"end":3750.805,"text":"在德國他們有22.9%做的是一個違罪不起訴的方式相較於我們的職權處分職權的不起訴那這個部分的話其實我們台灣只有1.5%而已那在起訴的部分的話其實德國在起訴檢判的部分其實都比台灣來的低那我想這個部分不只是會降低檢案官的工作量"},{"start":3751.385,"end":3773.332,"text":"他也會降低到刑事庭法官的工作量因為這是源頭的部分所以我想第一個建議就是說強化職權處分的工人但是這個部分其實會有很多的問題存在就是說對甲官來講一個文化、一個政策的一個部分因為現行如果沒有告訴人同意的情況之下甲官其實往往不會給晚起訴"},{"start":3774.431,"end":3774.812,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3790.293,"end":3811.494,"text":"我建議是可以從政策上面可以鼓勵甚至可以要求檢察官在這個部分可以多強化職權處分的部分就一些輕罪的部分可以直接由檢察官做職權處分我覺得這個部分可能會讓很多案件其實在前端的部分可以結束不見得一定要到法院去走完他的刑事的程序"},{"start":3812.984,"end":3832.694,"text":"那第二部分其實也跟剛剛徐老師提到的一個想法一樣就是說可不可以直接給結論之後有爭議再來補理由那這個部分在民事訴訟裡面小額訴訟裡面可以直接給主文但是我們在檢察官的不起訴處分書裡面我們再怎麼一個檢縮還是會需要一個基本的理由"},{"start":3833.374,"end":3856.157,"text":"所以這邊的建議就是說我們是不是可以給一個很簡要的理由的結論如果真的有在意的時候然後再補一個比較詳細的理由來讓告訴人可以針對裡面的這個理由來做爭執這部分其實可以參考像民俗文法的一個概念跟想法也是剛剛徐老師提到的一個其他國家的一個想法"},{"start":3856.818,"end":3879.209,"text":"那第二部分就是說其實我們一直在想說我們要自動產生像是酒駕、使用毒品的這樣子的一個書類如果我們把書類簡化到很簡化的話其實也不需要再產生這個書類了如果是一個罰單的話其實罰單上面不會寫太多的內容它只會說你哪一天抄訴你違反的是哪一個條文而已那我們的書類有沒有可能"},{"start":3880.109,"end":3901.958,"text":"做到這樣子就可以了不需要甲官真的在寫說他在哪一天哪一天喝了幾杯酒之後上路在什麼地方被攔下來然後知道這個事情然後有什麼樣的佐證好像也不見得一定需要如果這個事情可以調整一下的話我們在開發所謂的自動產生書類其實就可以不見得需要了因為他已經不需要到產生書類這樣的一個層級了"},{"start":3905.677,"end":3908.879,"text":"警察與檢察官是很重要的夥伴彼此之間有很多需要溝通的地方解訊是一個很大的問題"},{"start":3924.266,"end":3948.906,"text":"很多的案件都需要解訟竊盜、酒駕、幫助詐欺這些聚眾賭博更是一個很可怕的事情因為一個聚眾賭博找到的這個嫌疑人可能來就十幾個人了他可能就癱瘓掉了整個內情的一個情況了那這問題後面有些先進會提到建議修法那我想提的是另外一個部分遠距視訊的功能其實在法務部這一次的裡面也有提到但是"},{"start":3949.947,"end":3974.329,"text":"但目前為止看起來的數字其實是比較低的就是說在視訊的一個統計裡面內情的案件跟非內情的案件其實都是蠻少數的一個地方那這部分其實涉及到整個資訊系統建置的架構怎麼樣跟警局可以有很充分的這些資訊的交換那這些事情其實是需要資訊基礎建設的即便在沒有修法的情況之下"},{"start":3974.929,"end":3998.574,"text":"還是要解送的情況之下也可以透過視訊的方式來解決這些問題甚至有些相關的證人、告訴人、被害人如果在警局當中就可以讓他們跟檢察官做一個筆錄的話檢察官當覺得有需要的時候這也可以讓不只是我們的民眾可以減省很多的一些時間的耗費也可以讓檢察官有更多的彈性可以更快的收集到他所需要的證據"},{"start":4000.573,"end":4018.66,"text":"往下走就是說AI一直會是現在好像我們一個解方好像我們用AI可以解決甲官的痛苦但我覺得可能這是需要商榷的地方第一個就是說我們可能需要先思考AI可以做到什麼地步其實在2012年的時候法國部就已經曾經做過了文字探勘系統也就是一個書類產生的一個系統"},{"start":4021.606,"end":4038.285,"text":"當時的想法其實跟現在沒有太大的差別我想應該都是一樣的想法適用的案件類型也沒有太大的差別但是這個問題會有一個問題存在就是說對於簡單的案件來講它不是檢察官痛苦所在檢察官未必會想用在困難的案件來說我們現在可能做不到"},{"start":4039.346,"end":4064.795,"text":"所以我的建議是如果我們有經費的話我建議是回到我們的資訊系統回到我們的基礎建設回到我們的檢調到法院的這樣子一個基礎的建設有data才有辦法發展AI也許不是現在法官跟假官的AI時代未必是現在已經到來了可能還需要累積更多資料我們才有辦法在未來發展AI"},{"start":4066.67,"end":4091.808,"text":"所以我的建議是這樣子檢警的徵訊系統是目前欠缺的警察要申請一張調取票他要完成內部文件之後帶著他的紙本到地檢署然後在地檢署附近找車位停好車之後再去找內刑假官、懲罰假官審核之後再到法院去找法官這個中間等待為了一張調取票他可能需要半天的時間來申請這張調取票"},{"start":4093.369,"end":4120.779,"text":"這事情雖然不是地檢署的檢察官的耗費但偵查人力的耗費就是可能就是偵查案件當中的成本如果他可以做更多的偵查的話其實也會降低檢察官或法院最後的工作的一個量所以我建議說如果可以完成檢警的資訊的基礎建設的話可以降低很多偵查過程當中所需要的成本那這件事情是我們現在可能欠缺的我們現在沒有投入到這個資源在這邊的"},{"start":4122.967,"end":4144.456,"text":"那當然我剛剛提到所謂遠距視訊它也是含在這個所謂的一個基礎建設範圍裡面那這個事情其實會比很多酷炫的一些想法我覺得是更實質更有效果的它需要投入的資源也許不會立竿見影但是卻是資源整合的一個基礎"},{"start":4147.369,"end":4168.303,"text":"那我想在對獎官來講警察會是他一個很重要的夥伴他的一個品質如果沒有到很好的話其實對獎官來講他就是一個辛苦的開始那可是夥伴其實是需要互相的磨合的所以說對獎官來講可能警察是他的當時就是有點像是一個開發的一個開始的一個角色如果說這個"},{"start":4169.884,"end":4196.279,"text":"地檢署可以提供一些SOP給警察彼此之間可以互相磨合知道說假官需要什麼樣的一個資料來做調查那這些人力也許會是假官最好的夥伴那當然如果說相關的數位資料數位檔案可以提供給地檢署地檢署起訴之後也可以把原生的數位檔案提供給刑事法院降低現在我們在電子卷證掃描的成本那這當中"},{"start":4197.94,"end":4223.857,"text":"不只是法官、假官的過勞問題而已還有就是說還有就是其他的一個輔助上面的一些行政事務都會有降低那我想我們現在的電子證還是在起訴之後由地檢署來做掃描之後交付給法院法院再接力的在審理當中去做一些掃描的一個交換的過程但這些其實都是一個無形的成本那回到源頭"},{"start":4224.938,"end":4244.831,"text":"這是一個困難的事情從法務部司法院到警政署之間的相互溝通協調要讓整個資訊系統可以互相整合這是一個非常困難需要很多時間需要很多人力跟經費的事情它不會是一個小小專案可以解決的問題那我的建議是這不需要是一個可以思考的方向好謝謝蕭律師"},{"start":4251.406,"end":4261.781,"text":"我們現在補充到場的學術專家李政華理事長接下來我們請周佩琪法官發言"},{"start":4269.712,"end":4289.51,"text":"主席、委員、還有長官、機關代表、同仁、先進大家好我是高等法院的民事庭法官周珮淇我今天就是受主席的邀請來這邊替大家報告一下是說主要我是想要在一開始的時候分享我們民事庭法官的一個工作跟生活的一個現實的狀況"},{"start":4290.991,"end":4317.259,"text":"最後再來提出我個人這個從事司法官工作十幾年來在第一線的民視庭所看到的一些問題那提出的一些修正或者是調整的一個建議來講那我今天給大家的一個就是一個簡報的一個標題你知道自己扛著自己有多累嗎那這句話並不是我自己發想的而是我引用電視劇不夠善良的我們的一個"},{"start":4319.78,"end":4325.201,"text":"臺詞中的一段對話這個對話其實也是呼應著我們在前一陣子我們失去了一個非常優秀的同仁來引發的一個白花的紀念事件以這樣子的報告來獻給他以及所有堅定向前不改初心的司法同仁們接下來"},{"start":4344.341,"end":4361.719,"text":"這句話也是引用同樣的一個電視劇那其實就是我個人在這十幾年的司法官生活以來一個非常就是貼切的寫照就是說我是這麼的努力我單槍匹馬連一個問我今天好不好的人都沒有"},{"start":4362.219,"end":4389.722,"text":"其實我沒有投機我也沒有取巧我是靠自己的實力忙到沒有朋友那剛剛才知道我的人生原來是負面教材我覺得我在這十幾年當中我非常努力去完成這個工作給我的這個相關的進度但是我卻忙到讓自己沒有朋友那單槍匹馬過著我日復一日勞累而沉重的司法官生活那"},{"start":4390.302,"end":4416.683,"text":"那我個人的背景在我踏入司法圈之前其實我已經做了7年的律師所以我其實是在30歲左右身心、狀態成熟而且有一定的社會工作經驗來到這樣子的一個司法官的一個領域做著這個定分指針相關的一個對我來說很有使命感的一個工作可是我周而復始所過的生活卻是"},{"start":4418.804,"end":4446.133,"text":"接下來跟各位報告一下我每一周應該要做的事情有兩個半天的準備期日我們二審是民事全面合議所以還要再加一個言辭辯論的合議期日你每一次開庭之前你至少要有半天的月卷時間我講的都是至少基本以高院民事庭來講你常常會碰到一些重大、繁雜或是矚目的案件"},{"start":4446.653,"end":4462.306,"text":"其實你看一個卷可能就半天就不見了這樣子那接下來我們除了做這些事情以外我們還有旅刊期日跟調解期日那旅刊就是要到外面現場去看現場的地形地貌跟各種狀態的一個"},{"start":4464.534,"end":4465.895,"text":"審理單的批閱也就是說民事事件常常有很多寒茶寒巡跟"},{"start":4490.015,"end":4499.145,"text":"建定、調查等等的這個文稿都必須要由我們去做初步的整理以後發給這個書記官讓書記官發函出去做相關的後續的作業那這個工作來講如果你碰到的是一個工程或醫療鑑定的話它的問題絕對不是短短兩三行可以就是解決可能"},{"start":4511.238,"end":4536.916,"text":"可能這個相關的一個準備工作就是高達好幾頁這個需要相當時間做相關的整理那另外來講就是新收案件的審閱以及處理就是新案一來的話我們必須要就是仔細的翻閱跟思索它的應該進行的狀況才能夠將這個進行單批出去如果我們沒有把進行單批出去的話那後端書記官就沒有辦法做相關的作業"},{"start":4539.377,"end":4555.671,"text":"當事人當然也不可能到庭來這個做開庭跟後續的這個說明這樣子那接下來就是法律爭議的查詢及研究因為法官其實真的是一個活到老學到老的一個行業就是這個法律跟爭議一直不停的有相關的修正跟很多樣的一個研究的問題需要去"},{"start":4561.395,"end":4561.735,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4582.113,"end":4607.013,"text":"那其實我算一算這些時間全部扣掉的話其實我真正能夠在座位上好好寫判決跟裁定的時間其實只有一個工作天而已那這個都是基本的估算而已所以就是說其實我們真的不是說那個就是你怎麼不好好利用時間你不好好提供效率而是我們例行性的這些事情"},{"start":4607.714,"end":4608.555,"text":"我從2011年分發以來我就是待在桃園"},{"start":4623.052,"end":4649.945,"text":"在桃園地院109年的時候到高院民事庭我這十幾年來一直都是辦民事從來沒有辦過其他類型的事務在桃園地院民事庭的話我每一個月要完成判決及裁定合計25到40件才能夠保持收支平衡我在高院民事庭的話我每一個月要完成判決及裁定合計12到14件才能夠保持收支平衡看起來數字是減少"},{"start":4651.926,"end":4651.946,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4668.826,"end":4684.942,"text":"我每一個月要完成8件的訴訟判決每一份至少15到20頁起跳所以我用一個可以用來寫裁判的工作日再加上有加班費的加班時數因為我們現在的現行狀態是每個月1萬元左右的加班費"},{"start":4691.788,"end":4710.923,"text":"換算的話 比較就是看每一個法官的級距跟時薪換算的話 之前的法官可能大概20個小時如果很資深的法官可能只有12到13個小時是有加班費的話以這個一個工作天跟有加班費的加班時數其實我只能夠完成"},{"start":4711.724,"end":4711.944,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4728.726,"end":4737.916,"text":"可以寫判決的工作日跟有加班費的加班時數我根本寫不出來根本沒有辦法完成所以我必須要用額外的時間去填補它那為什麼我要這麼盡力的用額外的時間去填補它"},{"start":4745.964,"end":4760.201,"text":"是因為我希望達到收支平衡的結果我希望我每一個月都能見到一次當事人也就是我每一次開庭的展期都希望能夠壓在一個月到一個半月以內因為"},{"start":4762.267,"end":4774.971,"text":"民事訴訟的精華是希望推行集中審理制度你如果一個案件三個月才見到當事人一次那當事人跟律師在上次講什麼的相關的爭點或不爭執事項到這次來講你可能都要重新的查閱跟回憶來講這個其實是拖延訴訟進度蠻多的"},{"start":4784.053,"end":4801.234,"text":"所以我希望在收支平衡的狀態之下我一個月能夠見到當事人一次在一個有效率的狀況之下能夠把這個案件在合情合理的時間內競速去終結所以我必須要利用我個人這個下班後的時間去完成"},{"start":4802.715,"end":4803.316,"text":"製作及審判"},{"start":4823.672,"end":4843.285,"text":"那我的工作時間來講的話就是非常日復一日那曾經我在高院民事庭的話大概每個每兩到三週就是會有一天要睡在辦公室因為我根本就是寫不完我沒有辦法安排沒有辦法就是在我預定的審理進度之下把工作做完所以我只好加班"},{"start":4843.985,"end":4851.153,"text":"大家颱風日可能會很高興但是法官會很焦躁因為如果那天開庭要取消的話我們會想說我們既定要演變終結的案件沒有辦法處理那如果不是開庭日的話我們是高興多出完整的一天可以寫判決我們都是來加班的這樣子齁"},{"start":4862.967,"end":4885.946,"text":"那我剛剛引用的那些電視劇的精劇其實不是因為我有去看那個電視而是我去看YT頻道上說什麼幾分鐘可以看完什麼劇所以我只能半小時去看完那個劇的精華片然後來調解、舒緩我的身心這樣子那在民視庭法官給大家的一些建議來講我們希望是說我們能夠"},{"start":4888.809,"end":4904.082,"text":"就是調整這個我們的專業加給或加班費那如果沒有辦法限量的分案的話希望能夠就工作日跟有加班費的加班時數去定定合理的結案量標準那如果已經超過這個標準的話應該不可以為結案超過數量過多為由來評定不良好"},{"start":4909.787,"end":4916.252,"text":"那希望能夠至少在再審事件來採強制的律師代理因為第三審訴訟事件都要採強制律師代理了再審是對於確定事件的翻盤來講你為什麼不採律師強制代理呢接下來的話上訴第三審的送標的價額應該是不是可以檢討修正了因為我們的150萬是在91年實施制定的那現在已經過了20幾年是不是能夠應該要調整"},{"start":4938.03,"end":4943.354,"text":"調整這個150萬上訴第三審的價額那有裁判費的徵收部分如果全面調高我知道不可能但是分割公務事件是不是可以考慮看看呢因為我們的77條之11跟80條之1其實是一個矛盾的規定我們是以原告可以得到的利益去做徵收裁判費的價額但是在訴訟負擔的時候我們又說因為原告只是幫大家起訴而已所以這個裁判費還是要由全體公務人一應有"},{"start":4967.532,"end":4967.652,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4986.853,"end":5007.423,"text":"費用要由全體一應有部分比例分擔這個邏輯上是真的很奇怪這樣那法院也收到了非常多分割共有物的案件他們都是故意移轉持份怎麼千萬分之一然後叫這個人當原告來起訴結果結果這個兩照共有人高達一千多個人我們光那個郵費郵費一次就要計掉十幾萬這樣子齁這樣那還有宋達的規定因為宋達的話有什麼主觀"},{"start":5012.185,"end":5012.626,"text":"謝謝周法官 接下來我們請黃士偉律師"},{"start":5043.908,"end":5067.672,"text":"主席委員在座的各位長官各位貴賓大家好我是黃士偉律師我先簡單自我介紹一下我從101年開始分發到彰化地方法院那我在那邊擔任了10年的法官工作那最後因為健康因素不得不辭職那在辭職之後的每一天其實我都覺得非常後悔因為我一直在想我是不是不應該離開這麼一個我打從心底就熱愛的工作"},{"start":5068.412,"end":5080.026,"text":"直到今天這是第一次我覺得我當時做的決定可能是正確的因為要不是因為我離開我可能根本不會有機會我也根本不會有時間站在這裡為血汗司法的議題發聲"},{"start":5085.202,"end":5106.728,"text":"我知道今天這段影片可能會變成影片在網路上流傳或留下記錄所以我對話的對象不會是這個小房間裡的這些長官們我要訴求的對象是這個社會所有的社會大眾所以我必須要花一點時間來跟所有的社會大眾說明到底是什麼造就了邪和司法要喚起整個社會大眾對這個議題的重視"},{"start":5110.799,"end":5134.168,"text":"可能大家會覺得說就算案件越來越多人力越來越少那案件就慢慢辦不就好了嗎那我必須要跟大家講大家一定聽過一句話就是遲來的正義不是正義也因為這句話所以我們司法院設有一個就是以辦案期限為核心的管考制度那所有的案件都會依照它的類型不同定有不同長短的這個辦案期限"},{"start":5135.848,"end":5160.36,"text":"你可能接著就會問,案件辦不完又會怎麼樣?那我跟大家報告一下,只要案件沒有在期限內辦完,它就會變成所謂的遲延案件那遲延案件會有怎麼樣的結果呢?第一個,即使這個遲延是有正當理由的遲延,你也必須要不斷地定期上簽證跟上級報告說這個理由還存在那對每天我們都已經忙到沒有任何時間的法官來說,這個真的是非常的浪費時間"},{"start":5161.781,"end":5182.311,"text":"那接著他還會有什麼影響那除了所謂的送自律﹑職務監督這些之外我們法官每一年還會有一個所謂的職務評定那職務評定有一點類似所謂公務員的管考那一旦你被打不良好的未打良好的話那不僅會影響一個法官的晉級會影響他拿不到獎金更重要的是對每一個認真辦法官來說"},{"start":5183.211,"end":5211.304,"text":"他可能就會影響他一輩子的名譽對每一個認真辦案的法官來說即使我們的案件變得越來越多即使我們人力越來越少只要我們還有一口氣我們就會繼續撐著把每一個案件在想辦法趕在期限內把這個案件給處理掉那所以我要很明確的告訴大家來自辦案期限的壓力就是造就血汗司法的真正原因"},{"start":5213.1,"end":5219.28,"text":"我想聽到這裡大家可能會想說那如果鬆綁辦案期限的話那法官是不是就會天天打混?"},{"start":5220.376,"end":5246.027,"text":"那我在當法官的時候有聽過一句話這句話叫做是天下沒有結不掉的案件只有你不想結的案件我一開始以為這句話意思是說天下無難事只怕有心人只要你花出夠多的時間沒有一個案件是結不掉的但其實我在實務界待久了之後才知道這句話有一個更深一層的含義就是其實只要你夠敢再困難的案件都可以用最簡單的方式把它處理掉"},{"start":5247.23,"end":5275.747,"text":"那所以聽到這邊大家應該要了解到辦案期限這樣子的規定去限制到去影響到的從來不會是那一些打混的法官因為對他們來講期限是長是短都沒差反正他們都可以用最輕鬆的方式把案件處理掉那影響到的會是誰就是那些認真的法官那假設在我們的案件現在越來越多那每一個法官工作量越來越大的前提下最後會導致什麼結果第一個就會讓每一個本來很認真的法官"},{"start":5276.247,"end":5277.148,"text":"《立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議》"},{"start":5299.332,"end":5324.781,"text":"那如果大家都認同辦案期限需要適度的調整 那我們應該怎麼做其實我蠻訝異有看到那個在座那個司改會前不久開一個記者會發聲明那其實有明確的講到說我覺得你們除了提到檢法工程這我覺得都蠻有道理這個很多方向都是正確之外在你們那個記者會聲明我認真看第二點第三點都有提到說就是其實司法院應該要去思考是不是應該要適度的放鬆鬆綁管考"},{"start":5326.542,"end":5350.979,"text":"那當然你們也提到說這個可能會有一定的疑慮嘛這個應該要想清楚因為確實管考制度有它存在的價值如果全部都把它廢除掉或許有可能會導致這個人民受到司法給付會受到影響那到底要怎麼做我自己有一次在看新聞的時候看到一個勞保年金他會依照消費者物價指數的累積成長率調整這樣一個新聞所以我就參考這樣的概念提出以下的看法那作為拋磚引玉"},{"start":5353.393,"end":5382.345,"text":"那我們現在的法制下我們要討論這件事情我們就要先去檢討現在的法制下到底辦案期限的規定規定在哪裡那大概是這些我找到的是這些如果還有漏的再請大家補充那這些規定裡面其實它本身就已經滿完備的針對各種案件類型各自定有期限長短不一的各種期限例如說像是以刑事案件為例因為我擔任其中是9年是刑庭法官我對刑事比較熟可能刑事可能會有分刑事的通常案件刑事的檢疫案件那通常案件它的期限就會"},{"start":5383.108,"end":5384.397,"text":"場域檢疫案件大概是這個樣子"},{"start":5386.69,"end":5413.089,"text":"我們現在的這個調整機制會有什麼問題喔稍微幫我點一下那個超連結那請大家看一下就是我在我的資料裡有附上這個就是在4月24號大概就是上個禮拜吧很快就公布了這個東西了所以為什麼我今天會鎖定這個東西來做因為辦案極限的調整它就是司法院馬上就可以做的事情它是立刻馬上現在就可以做到的事情在大家開始關注這個血汗司法議題之後司法院很快的就"},{"start":5413.829,"end":5435.667,"text":"這個是只有縣民刑庭適用的啦因為我剛剛講很多像行政法院、懲戒法院什麼少家可能適用的是其他辦案期限規定這次調整是民刑的這個條文那裡面就很明確的有對一些特殊案件類型拉出來那做一些辦案期限的延長但是這樣調整有什麼問題喔其實它永遠都是頭痛一頭腳痛一腳永遠都會慢半拍幫我關掉 謝謝"},{"start":5438.254,"end":5460.769,"text":"那這邊我想請大家先靜下心來思考一個問題我們今天這麼多人到底為什麼要坐在這裡其實我們不就是要去討論一件事情就是要建構怎麼樣的司法工作環境才不會算血汗那所以白話一點講我們要討論的就是法官每個月負擔幾個案件才不會做到撐不下去"},{"start":5462.202,"end":5476.149,"text":"所以終究我們要面對一個不能迴避的問題就是假設在管考制度不可能完全廢除的情況下那我們就必須要決定在適用這個管考制度的前提下法官每個月可負擔的合理件數"},{"start":5478.113,"end":5503.042,"text":"該怎麼決定?時間真的很有限我簡單提出三個面向第一個就是總是大家都會說司法院很喜歡找外國學者做研究那我們就是請學者去做一些就外國的先進法治國家的經驗狀況但通常以前司法院做的都總是在講說其他國家有幾個國民有幾個法官這樣的比例可是其實我先講我覺得這個沒有意義因為我們國家的好送程度是跟其他國家不一樣的"},{"start":5503.562,"end":5503.582,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5520.009,"end":5548.062,"text":"每個月會去統計說這個庭的這個法官這個刑事庭的平均這個月呢結了幾件他結了幾件通常案件結了幾個檢疫案件這個都是確實每個法院內部都會有確實會有的統計資料那我覺得就是要用我們可以用什麼東西來看呢我們都知道有幾個地方調出率一直都比較高像是桃園最近幾年台中等等這些地方就應該要是列為艱困法院在我們就可以參考這些艱困法院"},{"start":5549.224,"end":5549.404,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5564.006,"end":5587.817,"text":"參考的標準可以截得這個負擔量因為終究是那些比較不會調出的那些法院就可以得出說這個地方的法官是比較活得下去了這是可以這樣想的那再來就是說像是艱困年度這幾年大家都知道說這幾年有所謂的離退率越來越高但其實才不是這幾年其實這個事情存在很多年了所以我覺得也可以參考這幾年到底哪些年度開始"},{"start":5588.957,"end":5589.278,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":5606.599,"end":5629.107,"text":"法官要派出代表各法院法官派出代表做程序參與因為我真的覺得其實現在在職的每一個法官他們都是最了解最了解這個現實狀況的人所以我希望要讓每一個在職的法官都應該不是就是讓每一個地院都要能夠派出法官去反映這個事情然後去程序參與那統合這個要素之後我們終於就可以得出一個結論這個就是"},{"start":5632.054,"end":5634.116,"text":"決定法官每月可負擔的合理件數"},{"start":5652.528,"end":5677.948,"text":"這樣子的司法給付水準因為法官必須要接這麼多件那我舉一個例子我時間真的快到了不好意思我今天一定會超時我以後也可能不會再出現在這個場合所以請容許我多講一下請把時間借給我不好意思我提出一下以地院刑庭為例我只是舉例喔我就是我參考我以前工作的經驗我列了這樣的一個案件案件比例或是假設我們決定的比例結果是這樣我們認為法官每一個月"},{"start":5678.348,"end":5697.715,"text":"他可以負擔的件數簡易程序我們預估15件那通常程序是10件其他的太複雜了我們留待以後再討論那接著下一步司法院在做出這樣子的通案標準之後我們下一步要做什麼接著就是各法院的工作了各法院他就應該要去我覺得啦我覺得這期間可以定3個月他可以每隔3個月"},{"start":5698.296,"end":5711.837,"text":"分別針對我們剛剛講的那個辦案期限裡面的各種案件類型去計算每一位法官平均的每月新收件數計算基準要是實際辦案的法官人數我解釋一下什麼叫實際辦案法官人數為什麼要這樣計算"},{"start":5713.579,"end":5740.733,"text":"我一定要花時間慢慢講因為我知道很多人想知道這個事情要怎麼做這是我花了很多時間跟很多人討論所想出來的實際辦案人數這個計算有什麼好處因為我們知道有些法官他會兼任行政職那有些法官他可能兼任審判長所以他可能只有分二分之一、三分之一那分二分之一的法官他就應該用0.5人計算那另外呢我們其實現在實務上面對一個很大的困難是即使你生病了即使你有請孕婦的需求我們都不敢請為什麼"},{"start":5741.914,"end":5753.562,"text":"很簡單因為我們請了人力沒有增加的情況下會造成其他同事的困擾大家會討厭你所以即使法官他就是捨不得離開他剛出生的小孩通常產假一結束大家就是得很快的回到工作崗位"},{"start":5755.239,"end":5772.422,"text":"如果我們每三個月都做一次這樣的統計那我們就可以把這些有短期的這種這種短期的人力短缺給計算進去他即使請假了他也不會相對比較不會影響到其他同事因為他這個辦案人力就被扣掉了這樣了解嗎?所以我才覺得必須要用這個東西去計算那"},{"start":5774.512,"end":5794.201,"text":"算出後這個數字我們再來拿來跟剛剛我所講的司法院建構出來通案標準做比較如果超過一定比例這都是我舉例啦那辦案期限就可以自動延長例如超過30%延長2個月超過50%延長4個月那如果短期內超過的這個案件真的太多到不合理的比例的話又要怎麼辦"},{"start":5794.901,"end":5795.441,"text":"立法院第1會期司法及法制委員會公聽會議"},{"start":5813.615,"end":5830.014,"text":"這個東西本來我很想講,也沒有時間了,我必須要跳過去我覺得現在我們的民事訴訟的低銷是1000塊那在行政訴訟法以占最大宗的交通案件它的費用只要300塊那其實我們物價一直在漲那其實大家都知道道路交通大家就會很關心什麼"},{"start":5834.516,"end":5855.901,"text":"當這些東西不斷的調高但是訴訟費用、裁判費都從來沒有改變那只代表什麼意思?代表訴訟成本越來越低所以每一個人民都有很大的誘因想要賭一把看看那這會怎麼樣?導致很多民眾即使知道站不住腳還是要來甚至要叫法官寫判決反正才300塊我也不想要撤回啊即使我都看完看夜影片我知道我就是闖紅燈了"},{"start":5857.041,"end":5881.381,"text":"我這回那幾百塊我也不要我寧願就是讓法官寫一個判決給我這真的就是排擠到這個社會上真正需要司法幫助的那群人最後我再把這個東西講一下就是我覺得管考制度的合理調整是司法院現在馬上立刻就可以做到的事情那我也知道前陣子書記官的事情也讓大家非常的難過那甚至某種程度上也造成法官跟書記官"},{"start":5882.283,"end":5882.403,"text":"主席"},{"start":5891.741,"end":5912.188,"text":"我也想說就是請社會大眾要持續關注這個議題因為只有身心健康的司法人員才能夠成為守護正義定分執政的最後一道防線那再給我一點時間這是我在當法官的時候寫在臉書上的一段文字我想這段文字替還在體制內奮鬥的所有司法官說出心裡真正想說的話"},{"start":5913.248,"end":5927.422,"text":"我真的很喜歡這份工作每當看到司法形象一次次遭到重挫我都會非常難過因為我身邊有太多法官默默忍受著孤獨犧牲和家人相處的時間燃燒自己的身體健康只為了把無盡增生的案件辦好"},{"start":5932.881,"end":5932.901,"text":"謝謝黃律師"},{"start":5957.665,"end":5960.086,"text":"我們現在介紹一下在場出席的委員蘇清泉委員黃國昌委員"},{"start":5980.612,"end":5981.252,"text":"司法院及法務部"},{"start":6015.799,"end":6018.982,"text":"台北教育大學文教法律研究所"},{"start":6033.755,"end":6055.91,"text":"其實在接到這樣的一個任務的這段過程裡面我有機會去問一些我自己熟識的朋友目前在省檢然後包括在律師工作的一些朋友們我跟他們說我要出作業給他們說我來這邊參加公聽會要請給我一些可以來這邊報告的一些建議"},{"start":6057.991,"end":6082.829,"text":"我想大家可以預期我可以得到的答案大概就是兩個字 減量應該還有四個字補人加減量我就一直在想說今天受邀的比如像前面幾位都是司法界的先進非常優秀的先進所提出的意見如果我今天是一個一般民眾我在這個場所聽"},{"start":6084.91,"end":6108.647,"text":"這些司法先進們這樣的一個說明跟這樣的一個報告我會得到什麼樣的感覺我相信很多民眾會馬上有一個反應就是現在這個時代誰不忙現在這個時代誰不累那為什麼法官跟檢察官的忙跟累我們立法院要開一個公聽會那台積電的工程師忙跟累"},{"start":6109.588,"end":6109.848,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6135.339,"end":6148.795,"text":"法律工作者,我想我今天的報告比較想要針對的是司法行政方面可以怎麼樣改變而且是站在也許是比較有距離的角度來提出我的一些看法"},{"start":6150.56,"end":6179.159,"text":"那所以第一個減量跟補人是不是就可以減壓我自己覺得這是一個迷詞這是一個迷詞前面幾位先進都提到說實證調查或者實證研究法官的一個合理的負擔的工作量是必要的我自己覺得這個也是我目前就我們現在司法行政以及我們現在的一個司法現況的一個觀察就是說我們欠缺對於法官、檢察官職務內容的一個"},{"start":6180.901,"end":6205.342,"text":"合理而且是有實質內容的分析評估比如說我們常常在包括今天在一些會議資料上我們都看到說法官每年的收案量然後每個法院每年的收案量每個月的收案量是多少然後去比較每個國家這個國家有多少國民然後這個國家有多少個法官跟檢察官這樣的比較本身有沒有意義這我自己覺得恐怕都"},{"start":6206.323,"end":6206.563,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6223.119,"end":6236.228,"text":"對照不會讓我們就因此成為法制先進國家所以我非常誠懇建議我們的不管是法務部或者是司法院我們必須要針對案件的類型這個"},{"start":6238.149,"end":6265.698,"text":"透過一些正當的行政程序去認定工作負擔的這個質跟量剛剛黃律師、黃前法官有提出他這樣的一套算式我自己覺得或許可以在執行類似這樣的一個計算的過程裡面加入一些有司法行政、司法的經驗但是不是在司法的體系裡面的比如說學者專家或者是這個律師甚至是這個"},{"start":6267.279,"end":6295.154,"text":"一般的其他的中產階級或是上班族的這樣的意見我們去定義說該有什麼樣的一個案件類型然後這個案件類型大概需要多少的時間、多少的人力來執行我這邊舉一個例子在我們之前E-mail附的會議資料上面有這樣的一個表就是鉛額表各位會看到一個非常形式性的一個分"},{"start":6296.274,"end":6306.639,"text":"分類方式就是用案件量而不去區分案件的內容、案件的類型完全用案件量來分它是哪一類這樣的1到6類的地檢署或檢查分署有怎麼樣的編制"},{"start":6314.922,"end":6334.406,"text":"極端形式的這個標準也許形式上是公平的但是絕對不是一個合理分配人力的一個途徑因為它完全沒有顧及到案件的類型跟每個案件難易的程度那當然這邊牽涉到非常多的這個判斷的標準什麼樣的案子叫做難什麼樣的案子叫做簡單"},{"start":6338.316,"end":6362.55,"text":"每位先進都可以提出各種因素來決定這個標準比如說要傳多少證人到底有多少請求權基礎到底要調查多少的證據到底有多少的主張然後受害者有多少或者行為人員有多少這些東西正是我們需要透過我們行政部門非常愛講的大數據或者數位運算的方式來做這樣的一個"},{"start":6363.86,"end":6387.452,"text":"分析跟調查,那我覺得這個部分如果我們要訂出一個可以說服人的標準這是未來可以努力的方向那接下來如果沒有正確合理評估他的這個工作量的話我舉大家都在講的這個檢察官助理來說好了我自己在1999年的時候曾經是第一批的高等行政法院的法官助理"},{"start":6389.113,"end":6405.261,"text":"從1999年到現在經歷了20幾年的法官助理投入司法法院體系了法官還是覺得很忙很累然後生活非常慘那到底法官助理可以幫忙到什麼程度所有的法官跟我講說沒有法官助理會更慘"},{"start":6406.186,"end":6406.286,"text":"主席"},{"start":6428.479,"end":6452.351,"text":"我看我們的這個司法院我們所提的資料強調那個ADR的這個分身解決機制我覺得這也是個迷思啦延續我剛才講的這個統計資料我覺得不足的地方我剛才在很快的瀏覽我們司法院所提出的資料都提到說這個ADR使用的這個件數不斷的提高但是這個統計資料沒有讓我們看到的是說到底有多少的民事爭議"},{"start":6454.272,"end":6480.492,"text":"總共有多少民事爭議現在這個訴訟外分身解決機制的件數提高但是它占全部的爭議的比例到底是提高還是降低呢就這個部分我自己覺得資料量是不足的啦那這是第一個第二個我認為ADR的一個處理結果應該要保留讓司法機關可以尋求救濟跟審查的途徑所以ADR不能夠取代司法審判"},{"start":6481.929,"end":6482.369,"text":"分爭解決機制可否簡壓?"},{"start":6504.11,"end":6504.43,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6524.663,"end":6551.144,"text":"這個部分正是我剛才講到需要透過程序去討論因為有些程序很繁複正是因為他有其他的不管是憲法或者是這個人權保障上面的一個公益需要實現所以有這樣的一個繁複的程序那這些繁複的程序跟司法的減量之間要做怎麼樣的一個權衡就這部分是大家可以去考慮的最後我想要提到這個管考跟職務評定的部分"},{"start":6554.005,"end":6572.534,"text":"今年2月112年上次第二號關於某一位前法官因為他這個常常有幾個案子不斷的再開辯論或者是延展這個宣判期間然後被司法院直接評定為未達良好所以就展開這樣的一個訴訟"},{"start":6573.855,"end":6574.295,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6595.41,"end":6595.53,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":6615.862,"end":6640.51,"text":"在我這個書面的這個資料裡面提到說那樣一個這個要不要展言這個宣判其實要不要再開辯論這個部分完全是屬於這個法官的關於案件的一個價值判斷或是說這個正當到底要怎麼樣正確適用法律的一個行使所以我自己認為就這個部分應該要鬆綁然後就例外才需要加以這個管考或職務評定好 以上好 謝謝"},{"start":6644.241,"end":6644.501,"text":"蘇清泉委員"},{"start":6675.885,"end":6693.101,"text":"謝謝主席今天我來參加這個公聽會我用另外一個角度來看第一個我要肯定肯定我們司法人員因為我們司法人員前三個禮拜還發現有法官書記官都過勞過勞死"},{"start":6699.867,"end":6715.559,"text":"這個我看在法界超時工作、超量工作、薪水太低然後留不住人跟我們醫界好像有點雷同我們的護理師幾乎要跑光了沒有人要幹然後我們司法界這邊也是一樣"},{"start":6723.8,"end":6738.421,"text":"什麼樣的補充人力跟一屆一樣我們有全力支持我今天就在修改健保法跟醫療法今天就要改所以我們要共同面對"},{"start":6739.91,"end":6764.008,"text":"但是我另外一個我肯定是大部分的司法人員另外一個我自己這一次從頭到尾參加訴訟我從頭到尾都全程參與所以我有把我的看法然後報章也提出來我請司法院院秘書長等一下也能給我回答一下"},{"start":6765.523,"end":6782.974,"text":"第一,我在2022年參選屏東縣長我跟周春美是票數很接近可能屏東優秀以來最接近市場內很多不公平的、不實的然後票開到"},{"start":6787.177,"end":6809.017,"text":"11點多還在開一個小小的屏東縣總選舉票數才幾張一個新北市好幾百萬張它可以在9點之前都全部開完我們那邊才四五十萬張可以開到三個半個那裡面一大堆的問題我們在屏東"},{"start":6810.658,"end":6819.807,"text":"地方法院民事庭開庭我每次都全程參與我們三個律師都很認真但是到了4月29號我們才發現說"},{"start":6823.467,"end":6843.333,"text":"我們這個陳審的審判長他的先生是職業的律師以前跟我們這個被告周春米現場是合夥、僱用什麼東東都有然後到了周春米當部分區的時候這個律師事務所就由他先生就由這個黃偉倫律師來主持"},{"start":6847.338,"end":6870.898,"text":"然後我們在訴訟期間整個屏東縣的案子整個被告的案子也都持續在委託這個黃偉隆律師然後他太太是審判長我們昨天看到我們屏東電話法院的回應我是覺得我要請教秘書長的就是"},{"start":6872.52,"end":6899.706,"text":"她說她先生跟我們的承辦的法官兩個平日都忙於工作無暇過問對方的事務內容那我要請問我們司法院是有在那個法官家裡是有裝監聽設備是不是不然人家在家裡講什麼事情你也知道你也知道他們都無暇過問我跟我太太都是醫生我們在家裡會討論病人的病情啊"},{"start":6900.846,"end":6915.054,"text":"這個是天經地義的事情所以這 這個就是要迴避我有請教我們主席吳宗憲他當檢察官的時候他說他老爸是當律師嘛 對不對他老爸只要認識的 任何有關聯的他絕對迴避 怕會怕死所以這樣大剌剌的 這樣繼續了所以"},{"start":6924.139,"end":6927.601,"text":"我們有那麼優秀的司法人員有那麼優秀的一些法官、書記官那麼也有一堆這一種這樣用利益在輸送等等的我是我沒有辦法接受我是瞠目結舌啦我每次開庭每次都亂說幾句啊我才知道說原來這麼多問題必端都要處理"},{"start":6945.79,"end":6968.62,"text":"整個過程在講就真的會吐血了用手蓋手印,領了一堆票拿別人的章一直領,領一堆票然後唱票,你們這個視頻全世界都看到了人家需要先唱票、亮票、整票他是一直當某某的一票、某某的一票這樣一直丟我在這裡執行過我們的李金勇"},{"start":6970.541,"end":6989.319,"text":"中選會他想說有很多瑕疵跟弊端他也承認但是我才回想起來當時的審判長這麼極度的不友善我們要求什麼東西他都不要他都不給那我才深深感覺說原來事實是這樣所以這個讓我一個"},{"start":6995.43,"end":7017.636,"text":"一屆的人那我一個立法委員我現在真的是對這個司法你們在講司法正義你們要補充人力你們要工作量減輕待遇大幅提高 我在全力支持但是像這一種的要如何來避免還有如何來迴避還有這樣有沒有違法我要這裡就教於各位以上 謝謝好 謝謝 那"},{"start":7023.243,"end":7030.762,"text":"有關蘇委員這部分在司法院最後再說明一下我們接下來請土秀玲法官"},{"start":7048.696,"end":7072.516,"text":"以及各位先進很榮幸有這個機會與會報告我目前是臺中地院家事法庭的專業法官所以我今天的報告只限於家事的部分但是司法整體的負荷到現在其實無論院檢一直都是非常沉重的所以很非常感謝主席及各位委員先進能和我們一起關心這個課題"},{"start":7075.429,"end":7093.536,"text":"從去年8月我從2省回任1省擔任法官8月底中院的家事庭的每個法官的月平均數是317件也就是我3個月要補分完317件加上新收案件"},{"start":7096.286,"end":7113.585,"text":"給大家看一下這個數字雖然108年在大院的支持下有修原額法增了司法的人力但是我們看從108年我們的案件還是持續的增加到112年甚至也增加到2萬多件"},{"start":7116.175,"end":7141.864,"text":"那案件量大我們今年8月我們賈士廷的法官從檢察官轉任的法官他要辭職了那我去跟他問的時候他跟我說案件量的負荷大他心裡的負擔也大覺得沒有辦法好好處理這些事情"},{"start":7143.564,"end":7154.681,"text":"案件量大在家事案件中我們處理的當事人跟孩子們"},{"start":7158.561,"end":7175.823,"text":"我想這個是今年發生的事情在開完庭的隔天就發生了這樣的事情這都是我們在處理家事裡面最不願意看到的事情而這是我們衝突劇烈的當事人"},{"start":7177.864,"end":7199.962,"text":"我想這個畫面大家應該也有印象這也是我們第一個跨國帶回孩子的案件那我記得我們跨國的刑警去帶的時候這個孩子才不到1歲他在這樣短的時間裡面沒有媽媽的照顧他看到媽媽的時候他是在原地停住"},{"start":7200.863,"end":7200.883,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7220.191,"end":7246.983,"text":"這是我們家事庭處理的案子我看到在錄影帶裏面媽媽用腳踹孩子用推孩子但是你們知道嗎在電梯裏面仍然看到那麼幼小的孩子張開雙手要媽媽抱這是我們在家事庭裏的日常我們看到的是急需要我們協助的孩子跟當事人"},{"start":7249.434,"end":7261.552,"text":"案件多但是我們必須要細緻化的處理所以現在家事庭的處理是以未成年子女核心的家事處理方式"},{"start":7263.693,"end":7291.859,"text":"這是開庭的時候孩子告訴我的話一個幼稚園的孩子他告訴我法官不要再讓我跑來跑去了為什麼這兩個父母在家事法庭反覆禁案只為了會面交往的地點是不是均等的距離這是我們的家事庭裡面衝突的父母反覆來回的當事人他們看不到孩子的需要"},{"start":7295.146,"end":7309.371,"text":"所以在家事庭處理我們必須也一定要讓這些父母有一個正確的認知讓他們知道而且藉由親子教育的協助"},{"start":7310.691,"end":7339.401,"text":"一切由專業調解的協助．讓這些父母能夠自主解決他們的問題．所以我們在程序裡面．我們必須有更多專業的協助．這交往的協助以及專業調解．還有我們家事庭中間專業的分工．在在都需要時間跟人力．跟資源的連結．這些都是為了我們的當事人"},{"start":7341.772,"end":7365.864,"text":"包括在審理中﹐訪師、社工﹐還有代表未成年子女﹐探求未成年子女的主客觀利益的程序監理人﹐再包括在家事程序裡面﹐因為法官的特定事項﹐而請求家事調查官去調查的這些家事調查官﹐都需要法官在整個程序的處理面﹐結合各種資源來協助"},{"start":7370.472,"end":7389.018,"text":"因為家事事件的特性．它有私密性．家屬成員之間非理性的感情糾葛．他們的關係．絕對不會因為司法程序而終了．所以我們希望協助當事人能夠善了．"},{"start":7389.978,"end":7406.51,"text":"那在這樣的程序裏面,我們當然需要調解的前置,協助當事人在衝突中看到孩子在衝突中受到的影響,看到孩子真正的需求跟渴望。我想大家可能很難想像,一個訴訟案件,"},{"start":7415.151,"end":7433.519,"text":"只要進了公訪父母會竭盡可能地證明他是一個好爸爸、好媽媽拍了非常多的照片放在法官的卷宗裡面但是當我請孩子來的時候卷宗裡的照片都是他們沒有看過的照片"},{"start":7443.391,"end":7467.542,"text":"父母的拍照只是為了在法官面前顯示他們是好爸爸、好媽媽我都印象很深刻的記得這四個孩子圍在我身邊看著裡面的照片說著他跟爸爸分別去哪裡跟媽媽去哪裡以及他們最後一次的營火蟲之旅"},{"start":7470.268,"end":7479.892,"text":"所以處理這些案件不可能很快我們也不可能在沒有人力需求的情況下去處理我們家事庭在法院裡面因為它不是一個專業法院的家事庭所以我們受限於"},{"start":7496.173,"end":7520.185,"text":"資源的分配我們的家事調解空間在法 臺中地院法 量如此大的情況下我們只有四間家事調解的家事專屬家事的調解但大家想想看在這麼劇烈衝突的情況下的當事人我們怎麼可能只用這四間來協助他們做好這一切調解的準備"},{"start":7523.562,"end":7523.742,"text":"主席"},{"start":7535.126,"end":7563.857,"text":"去年在臺中地院跟新北地院跟高紹家也就是我們全國現在目前唯一的一個專業法院案件量都到了3萬多件但是高紹的法官嘉士廷的法官有19位新北嘉士廷的法官有16位臺中嘉士廷的法官11位在這樣的案件量"},{"start":7568.243,"end":7592.059,"text":"我們真的要幾乎要有專業法院的設置為什麼需要有專業法院的設置因為處在父母衝突中的孩子他們需要更細緻的協助處理要需要專業家事的調解基礎上更擴大調解精進的功能而且促進不同專業的跨領域合作"},{"start":7593.74,"end":7594.981,"text":"讓當事人能夠自主地解決紛爭"},{"start":7623.44,"end":7646.225,"text":"在我們的少年更需要有多元化的處遇措施在這些積極的推動整合資源的平台結合這些相關人員是符合少年所需的福利服務等措施還有新住民家庭暴力受害身心障礙以及高齡化社會更需要的更多的監護議題都需要專業法院細緻化的處理"},{"start":7648.706,"end":7655.918,"text":"在對於司法需求慎重的兒少身心障礙及老人等弱勢都需要專業法院在大院"},{"start":7661.65,"end":7661.67,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7683.046,"end":7684.627,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":7700.055,"end":7725.659,"text":"在司法人力都不足的時刻為什麼仍懇切的請大家能關注少佳的部分因為我們知道能讓處於衝突中的孩子在父母結束了夫妻關係後仍能好好合作愛孩子在孩子成長過程中就算一時失了方向也總有人可以牢牢的接住也許我們的孩子可以長大這就是許院長剛才說的我們要做對的事情"},{"start":7729.86,"end":7753.26,"text":"這一切都需要足夠的司法人力．讓邵家能夠好好處理這些重要的事情所以最後真的懇請大家從源頭協助．能夠補足足夠的司法人力．方能合理充實司法所需的人力謝謝大家好 謝謝土法官那下一位我們請李聖傑副教授"},{"start":7762.253,"end":7771.731,"text":"主席吳昭偉還有與會的黃委員與會的各位先進還有各位的行政長官、司法長官"},{"start":7774.844,"end":7794.098,"text":"早上到現在我想我們聽了很多面向關於這一個如何去改進我們現在的現有的司法實務的困境尤其就人力的增補那我們也看到各個我們不管是這個律師"},{"start":7795.799,"end":7818.619,"text":"改任法官或檢察官所面臨的很多困境實際的數字做數據調查一定有意義在大會所提供的法務部提供的資料上面也都讓我們看到我們所面臨的"},{"start":7820.1,"end":7841.654,"text":"司法資源改進的急迫性我想在相關的這個司法資源尤其是人力資源我們從院檢的人力資源的分配來看的話因為其實這是一個分配的問題"},{"start":7843.275,"end":7865.052,"text":"基本上在現有的這種人力資源還有國家資源有限的情況下當然每一個機關都希望在現有的這種食物困境上人力資源處理的困境上能夠獲得最有效的挹注"},{"start":7866.493,"end":7866.513,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7888.118,"end":7907.485,"text":"這一種說明大概就會擺在我們的刑事案件所能夠增補的這種檢察官相關行政事務是不是有立即解決的方法從這個面向來做說明在1999年的時候我們的這個"},{"start":7912.467,"end":7921.558,"text":"法院組織法當時事實上就如同大會今天所提出來的資料一樣在相關的立法意見上其實當時是法官助理必須要增補"},{"start":7931.75,"end":7954.46,"text":"然後在這個《法院組織法》一開始也希望就這個偵查體系以這個檢察官然後下面配有這個檢察事務官跟檢察官助理這樣的一個三角關係可是很可惜的當時這一個檢察官助理沒有入法"},{"start":7955.14,"end":7984.192,"text":"那沒有入法之後呢那也形成今天如果我們也面對了這樣的一個人力吃緊的現象下呢那要把這一個檢察官助理入法的話那這一個相關的檢察官助理他在司法實務的定性上呢那他究竟相助的是偵查行政工作或者是偵查的司法工作那可能這邊就要去釐清"},{"start":7985.052,"end":8006.59,"text":"那如果我們從院檢的這種人力的分配來看的話那我想我們都知道不管是這個院方或者是檢方相關參與這一個食物偵辦的人員那事實上都非常的辛苦"},{"start":8007.31,"end":8027.112,"text":"那可是呢 基本上如果說我們從每月新增的案件來看的話那其實以刑事案件為例齁 那就我瞭解簡化官新增的案件呢那大約是相關刑事庭的法官案件的3倍那為什麼會這樣子呢 那因為"},{"start":8029.654,"end":8054.701,"text":"進入檢查體系基本上包含所有起訴或不起訴案件尤其是不起訴案件大概會花掉相關信財案件的三分之二也就是說只有三分之一會進入到院方體系我想這個數據是必要被知悉的"},{"start":8056.662,"end":8074.334,"text":"也不知道為什麼在過往的人力增補上我們也看到相關的人力分配的比例來講在過往我們看到的是院方大概是減房的一倍"},{"start":8075.074,"end":8075.575,"text":"人力分配關係"},{"start":8093.803,"end":8110.259,"text":"接下來我想說就這一個民眾黨團還有這個劉建國委員等16人所提出來的這個法院組織法的修法那在66條之五還有把這個"},{"start":8111.74,"end":8140.809,"text":"檢管檢察官助理入法確實有法制化的呈現為一個常態的職務然後透過這一個第73條附表的修正呈現出這一種檢察官的助理依照不同級的檢察署然後呈現為定額的分配這個都是必要的接下來我想"},{"start":8141.363,"end":8165.923,"text":"在檢查工作負擔的治標跟治本的面向思考上那治標當然今天大家都談到就是一種人力資源的增加那這個我想剛剛我已經提到了在審判跟偵查工作的比例意義上我們現在有的數據其實它是有意義的"},{"start":8166.744,"end":8187.917,"text":"那基本上呢 不起訴也花了這一種偵查工作呢 差不多每月新增量近三分之二的這一種案件的份量那現有的這一種法院組織法第66條之3呢 基本上已經釐清了 已經定性了"},{"start":8188.997,"end":8210.047,"text":"檢察官、檢察事務官的工作當然當時在1999年修法前本來在偵查體系裡面所呈現出來的檢察官、檢察事務官再加上檢察官助理這樣的三角關係在我們現行的反映組織法並不存在"},{"start":8212.328,"end":8234.165,"text":"也就是說我們現在的檢察事務官按照66條之3的規定基本上他具有司法警察的功能其實我們的檢察事務官在相關考試篩選的這個標準上有分別呈現出他們特有的專長是我們法律人所沒有的"},{"start":8234.625,"end":8255.896,"text":"譬如說他有會計專長譬如說他有一個稅務專長譬如說他有工程專業或者是譬如說他有這樣的一個資訊處理的專長那本來他應該是相助我們的這個法律人做司法實務的偵查工作檢察官在這邊在他沒有的專業上"},{"start":8257.057,"end":8274.438,"text":"給予偵查意見可是當時其實在1999年修法的時候沒有這樣的給檢察事務官的定性所以現在在檢察官助理可能我們就要加強他真的是一個專業的法律人"},{"start":8274.978,"end":8302.308,"text":"那如何讓這個專業的法律人在我們現有的刑法體系上可以運用那其實這邊可以看我們這臺灣的社會現實那我們每年從這個法學院法律系畢業了很多法律系的學生然後參與這一個國家相關的司律考試司法官跟律師的考試那每年大概都會產生1000個律師左右"},{"start":8302.688,"end":8303.188,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8321.794,"end":8337.487,"text":"檢察官助理的工作上可以去考慮擴大法律專長的人才接下來我想說在一個治本的方面其實治本就是減少送援"},{"start":8338.268,"end":8360.124,"text":"那減少訴言的話呢 我們現在其實檢察官我們是有武器的我覺得應該落實《刑事訴訟法》253條給他的這一種職權不起訴這個不是說他無罪 就是輕罪、微罪那他職權不起訴那職權不起訴我們現在有的這一個面臨的問題呢"},{"start":8363.745,"end":8383.777,"text":"長長被害人或告訴人他會在意在意之後你去看那個在意成功的比例其實相當高也使得基層檢察官不太願意用職權不起訴的武器這邊或許是在我們的法務體系裡面自己做內部的改善我想最後"},{"start":8386.977,"end":8412.598,"text":"我們的司法資源不足尤其是人力分配上司法資源要用在刀口上我想最後最後提出來的一個從制度面上應該去改善的東西就是我們所謂的強化訴訟外紛爭解決機制除了調解之外的另類思考那個基本上我們現在相關的很多的案件假性財產犯罪還有這個什麼輕微案件類似像公安侮辱的這一類的"},{"start":8416.921,"end":8433.177,"text":"這一種案件基本上也是佔了很多的司法資源所以我覺得在本質上應該讓這些絕對告訴奶論的這些案子不要浪費我們的司法資源"},{"start":8433.777,"end":8457.625,"text":"所以他既然要告就由當事人自己負擔所以自訴先行應該是從《刑事訴訟法》去處理法律制度的修改然後在自訴先行下基本上也要讓這些人透過律師的必要代理或者是訴訟費用的必要分擔"},{"start":8458.325,"end":8458.365,"text":"黃國昌委員"},{"start":8479.279,"end":8502.375,"text":"非常感謝今天這麼多的學者專家還有我們實務上面的先進到立法院司法法制委員會來給我們針對這麼重要的議題提供寶貴的意見那有很多其實是我以前在學界的前輩也有很多是我非常敬重的法官跟檢察官還有律師今天都表達"},{"start":8503.756,"end":8532.395,"text":"願意花各位非常珍貴的時間來給本院很多的建議我相信對我們接下來在處理相關的問題上不管是預算案還是法律案都能更有非常好的幫助我今天其實在感謝所有參與的學者專家還有事務界的先進的時候我必須要再苦口婆心的告訴我們的司法院"},{"start":8533.649,"end":8560.762,"text":"請把你該做的工作做好我再說一次啊 司法院請把你該做的工作做好今天我看到司法院的報告我不敢相信上一次我們在這個會議室針對這個問題 詢答的時候你們提那個內容簡略殘破不堪的報告出來我當場就跟你們講了"},{"start":8562.256,"end":8578.809,"text":"今天公聽會送一模一樣的東西來請問你們到底在做什麼啊為什麼這件事情重要我秀一個表給大家看啊你們現在開出來的名額是5500個我先表達我的立場"},{"start":8580.051,"end":8603.436,"text":"作為一個法律人曾經交過民事訴訟在中研院搞過法學實證研究而且專門在研究司法制度的我有很多同學、學長姐、朋友甚至學生現在都在第一線擔任工作我知道他們辦案的辛苦我知道他們辦案的需要但請司法院認清一件事啊"},{"start":8604.754,"end":8628.612,"text":"當立法院要擴增員額、要增加預算我們負責任的對象是人民我們需要知道你在現在一萬五千名你要多增加這五千多名在當代民主法治國家當中我們必須要對人民負責不是閉著眼睛你開口要什麼就給你什麼"},{"start":8629.833,"end":8657.238,"text":"五千多個人你打算要怎麼用?用到哪裡去?不用提出負責任的人力規劃報告嗎?我上一次質詢的時候我很清楚的跟你們講欸原額如何分配請你們交報告出來我到昨天 傍晚 晚上山炊事情請我辦公室跟司法院聯絡報告在哪裡?"},{"start":8659.497,"end":8661.059,"text":"報告在哪裡說不交就不交司法院有這麼傲慢的喔在司法院裡面大官該做的事不做做的哩哩啦啦把最辛苦的法官推到第一線"},{"start":8684.259,"end":8709.048,"text":"來立法院裡面要預算要原額我們都支持阿問題是你司法院這樣的表現是能看喔為什麼這件事情重要我今天看到我以前的我不敢稱他為老同事阿但是算是在教授民事訴訟法學界裡面我一直很佩服的一位學長江世民老師"},{"start":8710.345,"end":8736.581,"text":"江老師之前幹過第一線的法官所以他從法官退下來教民事訴訟法的時候他能夠直接教到問題的核心他不是只有介紹外國的理論跟實務上面的運作要怎麼相結合在法學院裡面教得很透徹我今天拜讀了江世民老師的書面我看了很感動他書面上面怎麼寫的"},{"start":8738.376,"end":8760.792,"text":"在人事組織的討論 司法院應該先盤點以下的事項第一個 是否未善用現有的人力藉調院辦事的法官是不是太多專業法庭的人力與受理案件數是否趨於平衡是否有懶惰的法官不辦案 承辦案件一年多就打算由其他的法官辦理"},{"start":8763.154,"end":8786.175,"text":"江老師是一個溫文儒雅的學者他講話、寫文章其實都很有藝術但我一看就看懂這是我為什麼跟你們要你們人力到底怎麼分配立法院要負責任的做這件事情我們就要告訴全民現在實際上面的狀況到底是什麼你們當初"},{"start":8787.659,"end":8808.084,"text":"跟大家講 跟立法院講說傷勢案件很重要我們要設傷勢法庭傷勢案件如何又如何結果設了以後運作到現在你們要不要排個專案報告跟全國人民講你們設了傷勢法院 案件量多少全部交由三個人集中審理這是好事嗎你們司法院不是沒有資源欸"},{"start":8814.912,"end":8842.632,"text":"你可以花上億的預算上億的預算去媒體搞各式各樣的置入性行銷結果連一個像樣的分析報告都做不出來以司法院的高度要委託學者去做人力盤查的實證研究我負責任的講一點都不難啦因為這個問題太重要了在台灣願意做這個問題的學者太多了"},{"start":8844.636,"end":8873.661,"text":"以前我在中研院法律所的時候我也幫司法院做過啊大家都知道這個問題重要現實上面發生的狀況重要結果你們司法院作為最高的司法機關要求院與院之間相互尊重一定尊重你們啊但是拜託你們摸著你們自己的良心啊你們今天交出來的這樣子的報告有辦法對納稅人交代"},{"start":8877.467,"end":8882.489,"text":"請你們盤點現有的人力這麼難嗎人到底是怎麼用的有深刻的反省現在的狀況現在的不足誠實的面對問題到立法院來合理人數上面的增加的需求我說過要修法要調預算我們都支持"},{"start":8906.462,"end":8927.903,"text":"但我們必須要了解現在的狀況到底是什麼你們人力禁用的計畫到底是什麼負責任的才有辦法加以審查嘛檢察官辦案快要被淹沒我們也提了法院組織法的修正草案我們願意去改副表給檢察官助理法治化這些我們都支持啊"},{"start":8929.96,"end":8958.64,"text":"但請記得一件事不管是司法院還是立法院在我國的憲政民主秩序下我們共同要負責任的對象是台灣人民我利用今天的公聽會再次的表達我懇求我們的司法院體恤法官最有效的方式啊不是發新聞稿啊要他們多休息去運動啊把你的工作做好Do your job"},{"start":8959.915,"end":8983.511,"text":"交這種不及格的報告我對司法院的表現非常的失望以上好 謝謝那接著由受邀列席的財政法人民間司法改革基金會常務執行委員蔡學儀律師好 那蔡學儀律師發言時間5分鐘"},{"start":9001.501,"end":9018.537,"text":"主席 各位委員 還有各位與會的學長姊先進 各位大家好我先簡單自我介紹一下我雖然來公聽會好幾次今天檢清司法負擔其實是我最關注的一點因為我自己以前也擔任過檢察官跟法官我之前在"},{"start":9019.538,"end":9040.234,"text":"平東地檢署、台中地檢署、新北地檢署還有桃園地方法院都擔任過檢察官跟法官的工作那我必須說明說今天這個議題對我來說是非常有感的因為我算是司法過勞的一個受害者為什麼這麼說呢因為其實我自己的父親他是23期的最高法院法官退休"},{"start":9041.154,"end":9069.693,"text":"他現在已經退休了他是蔡國在蔡法官我記得我在三、四十年前的時候我還小的時候我跟我父親非常的不親近因為我父親他整天都埋頭在他的判決書的撰寫上面我記得我媽媽跟我說他當年第一名分發到台北地院的時候他為了要把手上的機案清乾淨當時還沒有用電腦打字是用手寫判決書寫到他的右手這邊還有脫臼我記得很清楚的是我"},{"start":9070.573,"end":9096.847,"text":"那時候晚上我媽都要幫他用熱敷的方式然後買很多那種膏藥幫他貼著他才有辦法繼續工作下去那我父親也經常把工作帶回家去寫判決假日的時候他也沒有太多的時間帶我們出去玩因為他要在家裡面加班或是去辦公室加班那我那時候小時候就深深認為說為什麼我的同學都可以假日的時候有父母親帶他們出去玩但我爸爸就只能在"},{"start":9097.327,"end":9099.148,"text":"當然從小到大耳濡目染之後也聽到我父親很多對於司法正義的一些願景"},{"start":9114.798,"end":9135.715,"text":"那我跟我弟弟兩個人也都念了法律系那我有幸也考上了司法官跟律師那我弟弟也考上律師那我自己擔任法官之後擔任檢察官之後我其實內心一直跟我自己說我絕對不要像我父親一樣每天埋頭一工作那忽忽的對家人的照顧那但是很不幸的"},{"start":9136.616,"end":9160.733,"text":"我發現要做到這一點真的非常的難因為不管人力再怎麼增加永遠都是跟著案件走案件一定是案件增加了我們才會有人力的增補所以案件人增加但案件分到我們手上不會越來越少只會越來越多以至於說我從以前擔任司法官不然講法官的任內我的肝指數一直都維持居高不下的超過200以上"},{"start":9161.934,"end":9188.372,"text":"那當然醫生一直提醒我要小心注意那以前我還不太那麼在意但直到我成家之後有了小孩我真的是非常擔心這件事以至於說在我分發100年分發之後8年後我就決定先轉任法官因為我覺得說以檢察官的工作量每個月收支平衡必須截掉七八十件看起來實在太多了跟法官比起來剛剛前面一些學姊學長都提到的部分"},{"start":9188.832,"end":9212.914,"text":"其實一個月如果可以結40件我覺得對甲官來說真的是一個非常棒的數字但我到了桃園地院去之後呢剛去可能是院長也接種我在之前實務上的經驗讓我去審查庭我到審查庭之後發現審查庭一個月案件分出來是一兩百件的案件我手上當時接兩個鼓手上一接到鼓的時候大概是五百多件的案子那"},{"start":9215.296,"end":9236.454,"text":"以刑事審查庭來說,它其實集了審理庭跟檢疫庭的弊端於一身因為檢疫庭它是案件很多但不需要開庭那審理庭是案件很少但它需要開庭那審查庭是案件很多又要開庭所以以至於我一天一個上午可能就要排到二十幾間,不然我絕對不可能那一個月會收支平衡"},{"start":9237.628,"end":9264.021,"text":"那再加上我為什麼說30年後我是這個司法過勞的受害者是在說因為肝指數一直太高了那我的醫生一直跟我說如果再不想辦法降下來的話很有可能之後會演發成那個猛暴性肝炎因為我在之前就已經成功有一次是高達1795的猛暴性肝炎指數了那醫生也警告我說不能再這樣繼續下去以至於說我都很希望能夠"},{"start":9265.482,"end":9286.417,"text":"調整我自己的生活作息但最後沒有辦法我也只能選擇辭職來當律師但 辭職之後其實在辭職之前就一直有跟司改會去關注這個司法這個減輕負擔這個議題也提出了相關的一些修法建議我想待會我們那個林律師林永聰林律師會提出來那我只是想說在家法"},{"start":9287.037,"end":9312.457,"text":"在補充人力的加法以外也應該要提出相當多的簡法的一些議題跟想法以檢察官為例的話我認為說以增加人力當然檢察官助理我覺得是非常好的但是我希望能夠將這個比例配置到一個檢察官配置一個檢察官助理這是我當過法官有法官助理的經驗而來的千萬不要像之前設置了檢察事務官的這種負責因為好幾個檢察官"},{"start":9313.637,"end":9338.593,"text":"好幾個才能夠配到一個檢察事務官以至於說我們案件每次交辦出去的時候有時候太久沒有回來我問了檢察事務官說請問案件到底交辦到什麼程度了他都會跟我說因為他手上案件太多要先處理誰誰誰的案件我都知道有劣後但我也不可能去問那個檢察官說你是不是真的有辦這麼多交這麼多案件給他要他優先處理這個是很難去做的所以我希望說檢察官處理應該要用一比一的方式那另外"},{"start":9339.85,"end":9357.769,"text":"法官的這部分我希望說能夠考慮到一點剛剛那個許院長有提到說我們應該重視人才而法官檢察官最重要是在判斷就在認識用法的部分要怎麼樣去做一個判斷那書類真的不是一個最核心的內容"},{"start":9358.189,"end":9380.14,"text":"如果可以適度的開放讓助理去幫我們去擬這個裁判的書類當然不可以是全額交割股那應該要把你為什麼要做這樣的判斷你認識的證據依據是什麼條列式的交給助理或是相關的輔助人力讓他來協助你做這個裁判的撰寫我想這樣的話也是一種可以考慮的方向"},{"start":9380.6,"end":9382.801,"text":"接下來補充介紹到常委員羅志強委員接著我們請林達檢察官發言"},{"start":9413.533,"end":9420.008,"text":"主席各位委員還有各位法務部司法院長官和各位專家學者大家好我是林達"},{"start":9421.977,"end":9444.719,"text":"那我就有四個建議那第一個是簡化現行犯解送程序修正刑事數碼第92條那我們現在其實只要改一個字把這個本來的一年改成五年一個字可以減輕我們警察檢察官甚至法官很多的負擔那我前幾天才做內勤那一天"},{"start":9445.84,"end":9471.565,"text":"送來的案件還是大量的都是很多私用毒品那還有像譬如說我們講的超商偷這個茶葉蛋10塊錢然後就和解了那到了深夜的時候呢就一直檢察官就催那個警察說到底幾點要送來那偵查隊呢就催這個派出所那整個晚上呢大家就搞得很累啊那現在這個"},{"start":9473.645,"end":9493.986,"text":"連帶就擠壓到真正要處理重大案件要去生壓就delay這個時間所以其實我自己就主張說其實作法第92條把這個現行的一年以下擴大到五年以下這樣就可以解決很多問題了那第二個是簡化私用毒品徵結程序裏面緩擠數、排除職權在意"},{"start":9496.536,"end":9523.139,"text":"那這也不困難我們緩起訴、負面接引治療呢基本上就是現在要鼓勵多給這樣的機會嘛那結果呢就大家在那邊瞎忙做這個書記官的整卷、送高檢署然後其實幾乎全部都是駁回嘛因為都給他緩起訴了難道他自己會出來說我不要緩起訴不可能嘛那其實就是瞎忙這個我覺得也改一個馬上就解決了"},{"start":9524.025,"end":9538.345,"text":"那第三個是簡化違罪不起訴處分書犯罪事實考慮直接引用移送書怎麼說我們那個車禍過失傷害都撤回了結果大家就在那邊還是要認真寫那你說寫這個很簡單還是要寫"},{"start":9541.328,"end":9570.155,"text":"那有的時候這個群組留言誹謗結果為了做那個誹謗他罵哪些話還是要做副表非常無聊那其實差別在哪裡因為我們台灣這個《刑事訴訟法》有這個單一性、同一性的問題要比對所以其實只要檢查書類系統裡面能夠把這個附件一併上傳然後有移送書大家可以下一個司法官他再去看這個案件說有沒有告過有這個可以比對這樣就完成了"},{"start":9570.663,"end":9583.781,"text":"那這樣的話大家其實在可以先從最簡單的這種撤回案件啦這種最小的案件來改良、示範那其實就大家就可以很快的就少掉這種負擔"},{"start":9584.83,"end":9613.559,"text":"那最後一個呢我覺得是施用毒品的一個偵辦程序那現行有這個出犯、再犯這樣的一個問題那我一直長期主張說這個出犯、再犯是一種錯誤的法制反而造成了院檢的負擔一直在那邊這個申請觀察樂界裁定一直在那邊起訴然後認定不是出犯的不受理結果大家在那邊瞎忙瞎忙了半天呢被告在家睡覺根本也沒有什麼用所以呢這個就是沒有什麼意義的"},{"start":9614.119,"end":9632.197,"text":"那我花一點點小小的時間就解釋一下這個92條的部分我們大概現在我自己也很了解我們現在那個派出所要把人送到偵查隊這個晚上其實他們也是很辛苦那最多的其實就是酒駕吸毒跟竊盜"},{"start":9633.493,"end":9660.572,"text":"那說真的為什麼我說這個吸毒的部分為什麼我說改一個字把一年以下的這個改成五年以下就好我們這個吸毒現在大概兩到三年以下有期徒刑其實晚上大家一直催那個警察把他送來結果送來地檢署以後就是問他你有沒有吸然後他就說有吸他說沒吸不管講什麼檢察官都不在乎反正不是賜回就是交保為什麼因為要等一個月以後的驗尿報告"},{"start":9661.753,"end":9680.648,"text":"所以今天晚上根本就是無聊然後大家就在那邊一直催問警察你幾點要送來大概就幹這件事那這個竊盜有的時候就整個晚上12點一直在等一個偷這個茶葉蛋的然後就是要等他來全部人才能休息然後大家壓力也很大大概就是這樣那"},{"start":9683.424,"end":9703.455,"text":"各位不要小看解送人犯依照這個辦法裡面他就是要花這麼多的警力其實真的是沒什麼意義那我知道法務部現在他有支持我們可以做視訊我覺得很好那當然如果更好的話就是我們等於直接把他休掉變五年以下那當然我不是說這個五年以下大家就"},{"start":9704.36,"end":9723.042,"text":"不要辦他喔 絕對不是這個意思喔那只是說他在現行犯解送上面基於輕罪的關係用傳真的方式來解決而已喔該重判還是要重判我舉個例子齁你把法律弄得有彈性齁實務上好操作怎麼說 像譬如說春安期間啦那個大量的那個"},{"start":9724.284,"end":9745.521,"text":"抓了一大堆人 我們還要加派好幾倍的一到兩倍的檢察官再去問其實裡面很多都是這種小案件你把它變到一個五年以下然後可以由地方的治安首長跟檢警聯席會議或者說各地檢署他可以依照那個期間的要強力打擊酒駕的時候 他就把它全部解送"},{"start":9746.26,"end":9770.125,"text":"但他如果說因為某些案件量特別大他可以稍微把它放鬆也就是基於平等原則其實可以做一個處務的這個規程或一個檢察長他可以跟地方警查治安做這個反而可以去做調控那反而效率會更高這個是我個人強烈的建議那這邊一些案件數據就不提了那"},{"start":9772.455,"end":9775.882,"text":"所以我們只要把現在的一年以下改成五年以下"},{"start":9776.946,"end":9805.709,"text":"其實就可以大幅的減輕很多的這個無謂的虛號那這邊我列出了現在實務上比較多在解送的法條虛線以上就是這些犯罪那現在幾乎這一條已經快被架空到只剩下一條叫做普通賭博罪我實務上只簽過那個普通賭博罪不予解送現在大概也沒有什麼賭博案件在抓了所以基本上這一條就已經廢掉了那"},{"start":9806.963,"end":9824.462,"text":"法務部以前最早的韓文也說各地檢署不得以法警人力不足為由,要求警方暫時不解送人犯這個韓文是正確的啦人就是不能這樣過夜亂押嘛那其實可不可以用比較小罪的部分去討論檢辯的做法"},{"start":9826.834,"end":9850.106,"text":"好 這個就是我們批示很簡單我想那個吳委員應該以前也 我們都批過啦但現在已經沒機會批了 因為已經沒有這種罪我們這個罪名的刑度都是不斷上調好 那另外就是說我最後提一點就是剛剛講到初犯跟再犯我覺得這個初犯跟再犯 很多人比較沒有提我有利用小小的時間提一下"},{"start":9851.276,"end":9870.51,"text":"這個初犯跟再犯我寫了一篇正式的文章有去提基本上整個設計應該是當初為了海洛因現在都是安非他命整個已經不一樣了當初為了觀察樂界所設計的那種階段症狀的隔離現在已經整個都不一樣了那事實上我們現在的這個"},{"start":9873.068,"end":9893.979,"text":"兩階段設計叫觀察樂界跟強制戒制這樣的程序其實已經耗損了非常多司法人力而且最重要是他的設計還是就依照已經被廢棄的精神醫學的準則根本就已經不適用了現在已經沒有什麼先觀察然後有癮沒有癮有癮的就去戒沒有癮的就不戒"},{"start":9895.621,"end":9918.621,"text":"這種觀念早就在精神醫學都已經被揚棄掉了我們現在精神醫學已經從第4版進到第5版了啦所以換句話說 這個錯誤的 或者我們不說已經過時的機制應該趕快換掉那換句話說呢 我最後的建議就是說為了減輕大家的負擔 也是正確的立法把這個初犯再犯我們毒品危害防治條例第20條 直接把他給廢了"},{"start":9921.229,"end":9943.714,"text":"最簡單的一個案件最簡單就是他到底該還起訴就還起訴該起訴就起訴不用把這個出犯再犯當成他的一個構成要件化否則在適用法律上很困難然後呢一樣把它回到最彈性簡化的做法以後呢一個案件進來大家如果覺得說應該給他還起訴機會行事政策就多做"},{"start":9944.454,"end":9944.474,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9973.151,"end":9986.652,"text":"謝謝林警察官那下一位我們請紀凱峰法官那待會我先宣告一下待會本席發言完畢之後我們休息5分鐘請紀法官"},{"start":9999.864,"end":10028.58,"text":"主席、各位委員還有我們司法院法務部各位長官還有在座各位專家學者大家好我是台灣高等法院刑事庭法官紀凱峰今天很高興有這個機會應主席的邀請來這邊跟各位做這個報告剛才我的同事們可能跟委員還有跟全國國民有分享了一下"},{"start":10029.864,"end":10056.038,"text":"我們法官日常工作那些辛苦的時態但我今天在這裡我也不想說再好像多去講一些好像我們法官真的工作很辛苦很累就像是剛才李老師講的全國民眾可能會說誰不累啊我今天打算從另外一個角度來跟各位委員還有跟全國國民"},{"start":10058.673,"end":10083.427,"text":"來 換個角度來思考一下我請問大家我們需要的是一個什麼樣的法官我們對於法官的理想的形象應該是什麼我們是希望一個重視形式主義小鼻子小眼睛的法官來審判各位的案件還是說我們是希望一個具有廣博的知識"},{"start":10085.467,"end":10107.054,"text":"開放的心胸可以認真聽審專注在做正確的判斷上面的法官我們希望是哪一種法官呢我相信答案應該是不證自明的當然是後者不是前者可是我在這裡必須跟各位報告以我擔任法官20餘年的經驗來說"},{"start":10110.478,"end":10133.09,"text":"我們的訴訟制度其實培養出來的就是前者的法官就是小鼻子、小眼睛、重視形式主義的法官很難引導我們的法官去用一種具有比較開放的心胸甚至日常生活當中可以培養自己具有廣博的知識專注在做出正確判斷的法官"},{"start":10140.311,"end":10168.789,"text":"我的同事們剛才提到說我們的日常生活其實很辛苦都會被案件所淹沒可是我在這裡要跟各位說明跟全國國民說明其實我們法官不是怕辛苦啊我們怕的是無意義的虛耗我們怕的是被形式主義這些制度的規定虛耗我們的人生我們日常加班那有什麼呢我們週末假日晚上來加班那有什麼"},{"start":10172.025,"end":10198.732,"text":"但是假如我們把時間都耗在撰寫那些無意義的判決理由然後被無意義的訴訟程序所拖垮那為什麼我們不回家陪小孩好了所以我今天要跟各位分享的主軸是我們法官有限的經歷不能被形式主義所虛耗講到這裡我跟各位分享一下"},{"start":10200.219,"end":10228.273,"text":"我前幾年有這個機會由司法院派送到美國紐約大學亞美法研究中心擔任訪問學者在那裡中心要求我可以跟紐約大學法學院的教授做一場演講主題就是說明我們台灣大陸法系的刑事訴訟制度跟美國有什麼不一樣我只講了幾個主軸我說啊"},{"start":10229.264,"end":10255.6,"text":"我們台灣的刑事訴訟程序大概有幾個特徵跟美國很不一樣的我挑出來幾個主軸第一我們的刑事訴訟法要求我們的法官必須賺你詳盡的判決理由不能掛一漏萬而且對於被告提出的所有的答辯或是有利於被告的所有的證據我們要逐一說明駁斥他的理由假如是有罪判決的話"},{"start":10257.81,"end":10285.124,"text":"第二我們的二審是完全的副審制叫Denovo就等於是New Trial 等於是重新的審判我們的二審可以完全的推翻一審的認定當事人在二審可以提出新的攻擊防禦方法而且可以申請調查所有在一審沒有提過的證據那假如一審的判決沒有寫到那麼的精緻的話就會冒著一個風險"},{"start":10287.011,"end":10306.206,"text":"就是我們的判決會變成是當然違背法令的判決就是判決不被理由的當然違背法令就冒著被第三審撤銷的風險我講到這裡我還沒講其他重點喔下面的教授馬上舉手發問他的問題就是說欸 Mr.G你講的是真的嗎這樣你們的訴訟制度不是非常沒有效率我說欸你答對了"},{"start":10309.363,"end":10334.561,"text":"我心裡面很感嘆阿美國的刑事訴訟程序是世界出名的沒效率我竟然被他們的教授批評說我們的訴訟制度更沒效率可是就是事實所以今天造成我們法官需要的三大原因我這邊總結起來其實還有其他的可是我挑了我自己認為最重要的三個第一個就是按照我剛才講的按照我們的刑事訴訟法第310條的規定"},{"start":10337.304,"end":10356.76,"text":"我們的判決理由要非常非常的詳細而且要交代所有不利呃 要駁斥被告駁斥所有那些我們不採信證據的所有那些繁瑣事項我們都要一一交代 交代很清楚即便我們一開始得心證的理由已經寫得夠詳細了要不然會冒著一個風險被第三層撤銷"},{"start":10358.223,"end":10386.798,"text":"再來我們的書證調查程序非常形式主義我們的刑事重法164、165條的規定是說我們要針對書證跟物證我們在證據調查程序要逐一的朗讀或逐一的宣告要旨這莫名其妙的莫名其妙假如當事人已經請律師早就已經透過閱卷的方式了解了所有的卷證但是我們書證程序裡面我們還是要那麼形式主義逐一的宣告、朗讀、提示並告要旨"},{"start":10387.847,"end":10413.382,"text":"就造成那麼沒完啊可能像我在金融廳我們有些案件光唸可以唸個好幾天欸然後再來我們的二審非常沒有效率啊當事人在一審已經提過的證據到二審他還是可以再提出來再申請調查戰人一再反覆的問也造成民怨完全沒有受限制"},{"start":10414.358,"end":10440.239,"text":"所以我這邊懇請大院還有我們全國人民都可以了解我們法官呢不是怕辛苦我們是怕我們有限的精力會被這些我剛剛上述所講的這些形式主義所虛耗我們加班沒有關係可是我們應該把精力專注在剛剛那個徐政權院長所提到的專心的聽審我們應該專心在做最好的判斷"},{"start":10442.267,"end":10467.435,"text":"而不是被這些形式主義的規定耗掉我們無謂的生命所以我這邊提到了三點修法的建議第一個就是請修法簡化我們的判決理由有罪判決理由呢我們原則上只要記載證據標目就好了必要的時候呢才需要簡要的說明證據取捨的理由不需要再話捨天竺對於要駁斥被告辯解的瑣碎理由逐一詳細的交代"},{"start":10468.769,"end":10487.109,"text":"而且特定輕罪的被告,假如沒有爭議的話,甚至我們可以考慮當庭宣誓筆錄來代替判決書只要在當事人有爭議的情況之下,要申請的情況之下,我們再補作判決第二,請修法簡化我們的書證調查程序,也是關於《刑事重法》第164跟165條"},{"start":10490.182,"end":10505.976,"text":"在現在被告腳有辯護律師而且他的越卷權幾乎不受限制的情況之下我們何需要在證據調查程序逐一再提示或宣讀書證的內容呢?完全沒有必要我們只要概括了提示證據清單或標目幾個只要這個透過修法解決"},{"start":10511.28,"end":10538.948,"text":"其實可以很大程度上減輕我們法官的負擔第三,請修法支持我們第二審改成嚴格的續審制基本上就跟國民法官法一樣不要說只有適用在國民法官法我們通常訴訟程序一樣可以適用也就是說當事人假如要在二審提出以前沒有提過的新證據的話必須要受嚴格限制原則上不應該准許這樣才是一個有效率的司法制度"},{"start":10540.979,"end":10565.885,"text":"一審的事實認定除非我們認定有嚴重違背經驗法則或邏輯的情況之下否則原則上我們二審不應該撤銷這樣才是一個有效率的司法制度不能那個程序、那個證據一玩再玩虛耗我們的時間所以最後我想做個總結我們的法官其實不是怕辛苦"},{"start":10568.342,"end":10597.201,"text":"我們只是怕說我們有限的精力會被虛耗在無謂的形式主義上面所以請大院還有請全國國民都可以支持我上述所說的幾點讓我們的法官呢不要再被形式主義所虛耗精力謝謝大家好 謝謝那我這邊先做程序上的宣告第一個就是因為待會有本席發言所以我請黃國昌委員代理主席"},{"start":10598.274,"end":10626.877,"text":"那第二個本期發言完畢之後休息5分鐘那其實有關這個司法改革然後去減輕司法官的工作量不管在民進黨的中召委以及我還有黃國昌總召我們都有高度的共識就是我們一定要做好這件事情所以接下來我們會辦很多場公聽會那再請大家給我們多一點建議那我們一起努力然後把這個"},{"start":10628.078,"end":10653.835,"text":"把這個制度把它改善接下來我們再補充介紹到場的委員莊瑞雄委員那我們就請洪國昌委員代理好 謝謝 現在有我在但主席那我們下一位請我們的立委吳宗憲委員發言"},{"start":10658.967,"end":10677.235,"text":"各位大家早安我在這邊想跟各位報告一件事情就是因為我自己之前有20年的檢察官經歷所以我非常能夠體會所有在場的法官檢察官目前工作量的辛苦"},{"start":10678.106,"end":10693.657,"text":"那我剛聽了在場的黃律師、蕭律師還有蔡律師的說法那完全印證了這段時間我同期同學以及學長紛紛離開司法體系他們告訴了我一句話就說辭職治百病"},{"start":10694.797,"end":10721.163,"text":"在當法官檢察官的時候身體都出了很多狀況家庭也出狀況但辭職之後回來看我們的時候就是榮光煥發那到底是誰造成了今天這個樣子而且我們的辛苦並沒有讓人民對於司法更信任那這個司法改革就是完全失敗所以我一直提出一件事情千萬不要跟我說司法改革成功"},{"start":10721.903,"end":10745.874,"text":"因為當人民的信任度沒有提高卻讓法官檢察官的工作量更加繁重那就不叫做司法改革成功所以7年前的那一次司改會議我個人是對他的評價是完全不及格而且離及格還很遠我相信這是每一位在場的實務界的司法同仁都能夠理解的那我在這邊要提一個東西就是"},{"start":10747.65,"end":10774.936,"text":"我認為啊就我自己看那個院檢的高層其實做的最不負責任的事情就是說補人補人補人講補人是最不動頭腦最不負責任的一件事情誰不知道要補人但是問題笨蛋問題是出在制度你這樣子制度玩下去你補再多人都沒有用大家還是累得半死所以說補人是最不負責任的長官講出來的話我講這個我負責任"},{"start":10776.756,"end":10798.881,"text":"我自己一路觀察整個制度下來問題就出在這邊好像剛剛的法官說的他也點出了幾個問題點那我之前也有提過我國20幾年前抄了美國的交互結論過來結果人家美國的交互結論他玩一次就被人家罵一點效率都沒有我們玩兩次"},{"start":10800.409,"end":10815.216,"text":"這不是更瘋狂嗎所以我沒有辦法理解為什麼我們的司法院這段時間你主責是《刑事訴訟法》但是你完全不去管這件事情那你不就累死所有的法官也累死公訴檢察官"},{"start":10815.996,"end":10833.503,"text":"因為你同一個東西玩兩次而且你二審還可以非清一審的判決那這個到底在玩什麼所以我覺得這個都很離譜啦而且20幾年了卻完全沒有改那到底在做什麼我們拿農業時代的制度在玩今天這個時代這是難以想像"},{"start":10836.663,"end":10861.328,"text":"再來有關人員補充的部分我想跟各位報告人員補充真的不是問題因為缺額一直越來越多因為離職率很高缺額越來越多那你一直說要補人但是你卻沒有讓制度把真正有戰力的留下來結果我很多同期同學或我的學長有20年的經歷20幾年的經歷照理說他們在審理案件的時候是經驗值最好"},{"start":10862.148,"end":10882.816,"text":"身體還沒有全壞掉的狀況下結果這些中間分子戰力超強的分子一個一個離開我們一直補新的人進來但是新的人他還是需要時間去培養他的經驗值所以這些人進來他完全沒有辦法補足空缺下來的戰力這是目前司法遇到了很大的一個問題所以你一直喊補人"},{"start":10883.536,"end":10899.311,"text":"我跟各位報告這是在騙基層的法官檢察官這是長官在騙你們這些基層的法官檢察官因為補人永遠不是主要的問題問題還是出在制度你到底給了一個法官檢察官怎麼樣的遊戲規則或把他們搞死的遊戲規則而已啦"},{"start":10902.076,"end":10921.928,"text":"所以我認為大家今天不要一直拿補人這個東西當然補人我也是支持可是不要拿這個東西來騙大家因為這根本不是重點那今天像林達檢察官他也提到了很多施放寬92條是不是職權送債役應該要把它取消像我一直主張我一直跟法務部說"},{"start":10923.741,"end":10939.856,"text":"緩解訴處分、職權送債那根本就要把它刪掉啊我幹了20年檢察官我多少職權送債我從來也沒有遇過一件後來把我的職權送債認為要做其他處分他只是叫我修改一些知微末節的小東西那這個制度存在的意義在哪裡你從數字來看"},{"start":10941.337,"end":10962.031,"text":"他變更為非緩解度處分這幾乎那個比例是低到很誇張那你為什麼要虛耗二省的檢察官能力像這個制度這麼久了卻沒有人改這個也很奇怪那書類簡化 院檢都在喊書類簡化但是你書類簡化你真的有在推動嗎那你有在追蹤說到底書類簡化了多少"},{"start":10962.771,"end":10980.273,"text":"我只知道一件事我以前在當檢察官的時候我也想寫簡化的書類但是我的檢察長、我的相約、我的主任跟我說你不要寫簡化的書類到時候書類送審會吃虧那這樣搞下去大家不敢寫簡化的書類或是即便你時任了你寫簡化的書類大家還是意見很多"},{"start":10981.903,"end":10998.337,"text":"好 那我剛提到的幾個 譬如說檢方你是不是92條你要好好的改一下 院方你是不是要把認罪跟否認跟認罪的刑度要拉大我一直沒有辦法理解為什麼主席不好意思喔 讓給我一點點時間"},{"start":11001.86,"end":11012.176,"text":"我必須講一個啦我今天待過司法機關我待過行政機關當過機關我來立法機關行政、立法、司法三權我都走過我真的不知道長官你們在幹什麼"},{"start":11014.278,"end":11039.538,"text":"你今天司法院你讓法官獨立審判沒有錯我們無權置會沒有錯但是承認否認你刑度不拉大你就告知檢察官告知法官所有的被告到庭到警察那裡不承認檢察官那裡不承認一審不承認反正我二審承認刑度判的也一樣我幹嘛那麼笨蛋要提早承認結果呢搞下來是不是搞死這些在做偵查在審理的法官"},{"start":11040.419,"end":11055.901,"text":"就你們我講的都大家檢方律師都喊了很久司法院永遠不做任何處理就給我回一句獨立審判那你可以宣導嘛那我不懂為什麼你要搞慘這些法官呢這些檢察官"},{"start":11057.442,"end":11079.964,"text":"這個都是可以馬上做的事情你承認否認刑度你竟然要抄美國的刑事訴訟制度美國承認否認刑度差多少就我們這裡在玩什麼東西的不但把那個沒有效率的制度玩兩次之外你承認否認刑度還一樣多一個月而已那誰要來認罪啊所以這個都是司法院你該處理的東西吧"},{"start":11081.752,"end":11087.853,"text":"譬如替代判決 這也很快可以做到啊沒有正義的東西是不是就不要再寫那麼多"},{"start":11088.7,"end":11111.58,"text":"判決理由 因為判決書厚厚一本 當事人只看主文啦你其他是寫給二審看的 寫給其他法官看的那幹嘛自己搞自己 很多東西喔 不需要讓這個判決書這麼這麼漏漏等的 是不是該刪就把它刪掉很多東西用筆錄取代判決 或是根本就不需要"},{"start":11112.361,"end":11121.604,"text":"有這麼多的判決理由要寫在裡面或是簡單的條列化或像剛剛有律師提的就像罰單一樣這麼簡單勾一勾簡單寫幾個字就好來簡化偵查書類或裁判書類的製作時間最後我想提一個東西"},{"start":11134.935,"end":11163.596,"text":"該除罪話的東西我們還是要盡量推除罪話公然無辱不違憲其實我覺得這一點我可以接受但是它不代表不能除罪話那個是憲法有沒有違憲的問題但是在法律上面我們可以除罪啊它沒有必要存在嘛我罵你一句髒話結果我要用全民那麼多我們全民繳的稅金司法預算是全民的稅金我要拿全國人的錢來滿足你的心情"},{"start":11165.143,"end":11192.256,"text":"這個沒有道理嘛那如果你今天要告你要告民事訴訟那你自己去繳裁判費去告啊為什麼一堆檢察官要把他放進來然後公然無路如果不除罪的話現在網路那麼發達基隆的人告屏東的就屏東要來屏東的被告要來基隆開庭就到最後不起訴或判無罪這不就人民的損失嗎所以這個東西該除罪的話我們是不是早就應該要要積極的做這件事情了"},{"start":11193.456,"end":11201.459,"text":"最後我再講一個我上一次在這邊質詢部長以及司法院秘書長的時候我曾經提過一個數據我是在2020年離開檢方的2019年的數據到去年的數據全國檢方總受案量增加了47%也就是全國新案多了快五成"},{"start":11220.819,"end":11249.127,"text":"那我再看一下房價這7年是增加了98%也就是我們也就是檢方新案的增加率跟房價差不多了我為什麼要講到房價年輕人對於現在的房價有多無奈多想躺平做到工作再多也買不起房子有多無奈多想躺平現在的法官檢察官對於現在案件量就有多無奈多想躺平"},{"start":11250.66,"end":11267.614,"text":"因為你再怎麼努力你還是結不完那但是法官、假官不能躺平他是拚命地做拿自己的家庭生活、拿自己的健康去跟他拚麻煩一下沒有合理的數量絕對不可能有"},{"start":11268.935,"end":11298.209,"text":"讓人民信任的司法品質當年7年多前蔡政府搞的司法改革是說讓人民信任司法但是我跟你講這個改下去讓人民更不信任司法而已因為你的司法品質只會越來越爛你把簡單的事情全部複雜化那這樣搞下來的司法品質就會像今天這樣子然後搞到法官人生走不下去然後檢察官法官大量離職請各位長官一定要記得這件事情"},{"start":11299.548,"end":11300.849,"text":"好 謝謝吳宗憲委員依照先前的宣告 我們現在休息5分鐘"},{"start":11328.323,"end":11328.985,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":11747.743,"end":11758.599,"text":"現在繼續開會我們先做會議時間的處理公聽會上午的會議時間我們繼續進行到所有發言都結束為止接下來我們請黃一鋒副教授發言"},{"start":11771.563,"end":11786.267,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位學者、專家大家好很榮幸有今天的機會來參加公聽會我在淡江大學公共行政系任教所以我就從行政管理跟人事行政的角度來提供個人的潛見第一點"},{"start":11789.969,"end":11790.369,"text":"強化訴訟外紛爭解決機制"},{"start":11807.098,"end":11818.309,"text":"機構查詢平台,供民眾查詢利用,並且持續透過網站、媒體及研習課程等多元管道,宣導訴訟外紛爭解決機制而推動調解業務,確實對減輕法院的審判負擔,縮減基層工作負荷有所幫助"},{"start":11825.896,"end":11825.916,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11852.111,"end":11869.207,"text":"提供更多的協助跟指導這部分有很長的努力、很長的工作要做、很長的路要走所以我相信應該要持續的再去做這些努力也就是說要讓ADR制度有效發揮定分指針以及"},{"start":11870.128,"end":11870.168,"text":"第二點："},{"start":11893.882,"end":11894.122,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11906.032,"end":11906.732,"text":"這些是值得肯定的"},{"start":11926.764,"end":11945.483,"text":"但是我要提出來是說我們是不是可以考慮把AI人工智慧這樣的機制把它放進來舉例來說在學界來講我們現在對OpenAI對ChopGTT很多學者開始藉由ChopGTT的協助來製作研究計畫書"},{"start":11946.744,"end":11973.562,"text":"那根據經驗你只要設定的問題是正確的然後他提供給你的資料會越來越精確當然我們知道ChapTT也很會唬爛可是只要你有足夠專業你就可以去修改他的內容然後再繼續不斷地更改你的問題之後這個後面的成果就會越來越精確那有一些國際期刊已經開始接受用AI來做審查工作也就是說有學者去做過研究"},{"start":11974.102,"end":12000.189,"text":"A.I.協助寫出來的審查意見就是文章的評論意見跟真人實際做的已經有相當大的相似度也就是說這個精確度已經到75%了然後甚至有一些國際期刊也允許用A.I.來製作論文的某一些部分當然這是有限定的因為論文不能假手A.I.來幫你做但是我相信這樣的精神對"},{"start":12002.216,"end":12028.347,"text":"法官來講他在判決書的製作如果像剛剛許院長說的耗掉了他40%的工作時間剛剛那個州法官也提到他其實只有一天能夠來做這個什麼判決書的製作那事實上如果我們有很大量的司法院的資料輸進去之後然後再適當的運用AI法官基本上可以減輕很多前端作業的耗費時間的事情然後能夠專注的去把"},{"start":12029.187,"end":12040.753,"text":"他的時間放在審判的思考上面我們知道剛剛提到這個很重要的工作就在做審判那這個判決書的品質能夠提升其實對法官也有幫助然後能夠減輕他的時間"},{"start":12042.588,"end":12065.699,"text":"那我個人覺得說其實這裡面還有一個問題是這幾年也有人質疑那如果引進AI會不會以後就AI幫你做判案就不用人了那事實上是不會的因為這樣的資料輸進去之後所有的確認、更正都還必須由司法委員自己來做他不可能取代法官也不可能替法官做判決"},{"start":12066.519,"end":12085.274,"text":"所以我相信這個輔助工具如果我們對資訊科技要有所引進的話應該可以把AI特別是類似這幾年ChopGTT或者Bing這一類的軟體那能夠加以運用第三點我個人覺得我要建議是說"},{"start":12087.409,"end":12115.562,"text":"司法院應該參考原額評鑑的精神以專案小組的方式來做整個組織診斷分析然後提出實際更符合需要的原額需求我會這樣講是因為說我們回過頭來去思考訴訟案件不斷增加造成司法院人力不足這是我們今天討論當然檢查系統也一樣的問題就也都是案件增加所以造成人力不足"},{"start":12116.175,"end":12132.689,"text":"那這個問題是不是直接增加員額就可以解決呢?剛剛吳委員提到補人是一個最簡單的方法但是補人是個騙人的辦法這有可能為什麼呢?因為我們從問題解決就是Problem solving這個觀點來看我們要循著了解問題確認原因"},{"start":12135.192,"end":12151.913,"text":"選擇及執行對策這樣三個步驟去解決問題所以你直接認為說我現在人不夠所以我就補人這樣一個機械式的反應方式它並不夠理性客觀換句話說有可能補人可以解決問題但補人能不能解決全部的問題"},{"start":12152.654,"end":12152.774,"text":"根本解"},{"start":12176.059,"end":12187.239,"text":"包括剛剛吳委員提到的制度性的問題那這樣的做法我們才可能去把問題徹底解決避免說頭痛於頭腳痛於腳的這個偏頗那各位知道RCA其實來自"},{"start":12189.022,"end":12189.362,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12210.371,"end":12218.988,"text":"讓這個方案因為他提出了五千多個原格確實相當龐大的那他要有足夠充分的理由跟證據來告訴立法院"},{"start":12220.49,"end":12248.337,"text":"因為立法院負責預算審查那剛剛如同黃國昌委員提到的所有這些工作即使支持還是要對人民負責對納稅人負責所以我建議說這個工作應該要做因為照我們中央機關政府機關總言而法第9條的規定司法院及所屬機關原額管理規劃、調整、監督及評鑑由司法院辦理"},{"start":12249.814,"end":12273.888,"text":"要含執行政院指定相關的機關來對應當然我們知道司法院有可能會疑慮說原額評鑑會影響審判獨立或者影響日常業務所以我剛剛為什麼會提出一個類似專案小組的概念就是說我們參考原額評鑑的精神但不一定要照那個方式走"},{"start":12275.269,"end":12302.418,"text":"現在行政院做的原則評論非常認真是他要到實地訪試然後收集很多現場的資料但是我們知道實地訪試很可能會對法官造成工作上的負擔或者甚至影響所以那一段如果能夠做適當的調整而能夠收集實際的資料如說剛剛周法官跟黃律師所親身提供的這樣的工作經驗事實上這是一個非常好的基礎資料但是我們聽到都是案例都是個案"},{"start":12303.078,"end":12330.772,"text":"司法委員應該有責任做全面性的檢視然後把這些工作整理起來那這個我們在人事行政上稱為叫工作分析也就是說工作分析之後有具體的資料然後我們再去做分類、做整理、做評估然後我們才能去計算出到底需要多少人力我相信這樣的方向應該是司法院可以來做的我剛才看到黃國昌委員秀出的一張是4月24號的照片那我"},{"start":12331.852,"end":12355.07,"text":"敬佩黃委員對這些實事求是認真要求的一個精神但是我也相信也許我們應該給司法院多一點體諒是這樣的工作分析這樣的工作診斷的工作其實不是從4月24號到今天就能完成的它至少需要幾個月的時間來落實去做調查跟分析工作所以如果"},{"start":12355.911,"end":12380.027,"text":"司法院真的需要能夠去提升、增加員額我個人也主張應該要提出具體證據來那剛剛這樣的專案小組的功能也許可以有所幫助第4點我想提供一點對員額的﹐法官員額的一點個人心得剛剛聽了幾位司法界的前輩們提到的工作上的經驗我個人比較長時間參與到"},{"start":12382.731,"end":12409.331,"text":"人事總署有關原額評鑑的工作我熟悉那一套過程但是我也覺得說我們經常會用經濟效率的觀點來評估公務人員的工作量可是法官的工作可能除了量之外很重要一點是一個數值跟品質的問題換句話說如果我們讓法官每天就是暗讀牢行只是趕著結案的壓力之下其實沒有一個法官會快樂的但是"},{"start":12410.111,"end":12410.331,"text":"謝謝黃教授"},{"start":12438.015,"end":12440.789,"text":"好 接下來我們請林理事長發言"},{"start":12452.029,"end":12470.647,"text":"主席在場委員以及我們司法院法務部的長官還有我們專家學者大家午安大家好我們介紹這個案子現在感謝立法院給我們邀請那我們介紹案子有點趕那真的有這麼多題目啊其實看這有一點複雜也不是十分可以"},{"start":12472.108,"end":12496.784,"text":"講完了那我在想說怎麼去回應這樣的一個議題然後更重要的其實剛才我們看了這麼多學者、專家的一個意見其實我還蠻高興的為什麼呢?就是大家共識還蠻高的共識還蠻高的因為大家講的內容都是要減量、提升品質、重視效率只是從各不同的專業、從民事、刑庭這樣來看"},{"start":12497.825,"end":12523.016,"text":"那我這邊也在這簽一下我們在後面講就比較好講可是我怎麼樣我接了自己的專長因為我是留日的然後我自己有長期觀察我們這個臺灣的思改變動那我覺得我們這麼多共識而這些共識可能不是我們在場學者我們省檢變有相當的共識那現在重點是好像大家"},{"start":12524.81,"end":12539.852,"text":"接下來該怎麼做?有沒有決心做?或是想不想做?所以我現在比較大的重點介紹就是說我們最近這幾年的思改的方向其實跟日本還蠻接近的"},{"start":12540.433,"end":12561.343,"text":"所以我現在就是在大家提出來的共識下我提一些相關的資料給大家有一些更有勇氣或有信心再做下去也就是說我印象很深刻我2000年在日本留學的時候剛好日本也是在做他們類似我們2016年2017年的司改國師會議"},{"start":12564.225,"end":12588.037,"text":"其實那年代是李登輝李總統那年代也有一個司改的全國的一個全國大會那其實他們在西元2000年的時候其實他們就用百年用司法的那個明治維新的概念來做他們的司改那所以我覺得他們那時候評估或他們現在的一個走向其實就奠定在那當初的一個認識上"},{"start":12591.079,"end":12599.108,"text":"更重要的是我們跟日本有相同的民情或是我們的一些價值可能比較接近那我先有一個統計數字就是說我這邊"},{"start":12603.632,"end":12631.026,"text":"我們發現日本對於他們的治安他們是覺得很有把握的我們再看一下另外就是他們司法公信他們判決人民對他的信賴也是高的基本上這是可能跟我們台灣其實我覺得台灣一般來講對治安的一個肯定也是蠻高的就是說司法公信這一點也是我們這一次全國司改2017年的全國司改會議很重要的一個解決重點"},{"start":12632.591,"end":12653.812,"text":"那接下來就是我們看一下日本他們維持這樣的一個司法品質那個審判的公信那因為今天因為我接到資料可能是我們不然民眾黨或是我們民進黨都是提出一個關於檢察官的一個檢察官助理的一個一個原理配置的一個法制法的工作"},{"start":12654.753,"end":12681.041,"text":"那這個我也贊成 我也贊成可是我們如果相對的資源或是有這樣擴充的源頭的話那我們是不是有更好的一個選擇這是我今天一個很重要的主題之一因為我們看一下我們台灣的人口這邊有一個統計數字我們台灣人口大概2300萬那日本大概1億2000萬所以我們差5倍的差距可是你看我們的檢察官的數量其實他比例來看其實不算低"},{"start":12682.122,"end":12691.473,"text":"其實也不算低也就是說相對於日本的我們日本有將近2000那我們台灣就大概1300"},{"start":12692.739,"end":12693.399,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12718.017,"end":12727.632,"text":"一個最好的一個關鍵上我在想說怎麼去描述呢可能大家比較熟的就是可能剛才有老師看到我之前給報告"},{"start":12729.554,"end":12747.287,"text":"怎麼會放一個松榮子我想這個是也是在這世紀初的時候一個日本的HERO的一個很重要的一個連續訓練因為他當我在放映的時候 剛剛我也是在那邊我引起很多人想去考司法書館"},{"start":12751.635,"end":12767.632,"text":"後面他有一個小小的結局就是這個司法司官宋文子最後是想去當副檢察官也就是說為什麼我今天要提到這個制度我是覺得就是說我們檢察官剛剛也提到我們檢查那個量"},{"start":12768.581,"end":12794.111,"text":"或是指我覺得我們的努力或是我們的品質我覺得依我的經驗來講不屬於日本檢察官可是就是說日本檢察官他們怎麼去開日本檢察官的工作為什麼他們2000這樣的一個人數、人力他可以去維持類似我剛才看到那個那個件數、刑事案件的件數其實或是我們起訴例或是那個其實差不多齁那差不多齁"},{"start":12795.091,"end":12811.224,"text":"我覺得就是 他們看日本檢查案就把它當作是我剛剛這邊有提到就是我們才講狐狸跟所謂的刺蝟我覺得他們把檢查案當作是一個那是那個金庸小說的倚天劍屠龍刀"},{"start":12812.585,"end":12835.771,"text":"你檢察官要讓他負責比較重大的案件所以我剛才提到這個孫文子他為什麼要當副檢察就是說剛才很多我們前面的實務的先進也提到有些輕微的案件是不是可以讓不要都讓檢察官這樣暗堵這樣子日夜這樣操勞所以"},{"start":12839.412,"end":12860.805,"text":"我剛才提到日本他們在戰後去正式去處理這個定位一個叫互檢察這個角色然後在2000年前後他們在做司改的時候他們重新評估到底這個制度要怎麼維持也就是說他那時候連他跟我們現在想像一樣欸對啊是不是要增加檢察官的"},{"start":12862.286,"end":12870.453,"text":"人力等等之類的所以他們做一個我這邊有引導因為時間的關係我沒有辦法去把他的內容做詳細的介紹所以捷運這樣講就是說他們去評估"},{"start":12875.266,"end":12895.563,"text":"在他們整個司改議題這麼多要做這麼多事情人民對司法的品質或司法的需求就這麼大那該怎麼做那想想就是這個護檢察官的制度可以再去評估看看比如說你檢察官要徵人的話那可能是國家預算啦財政的負擔"},{"start":12897.344,"end":12914.835,"text":"重點是類似我們現在他們互簡化的一個重要來源是來自於所謂檢查事務官或是公務人員體系或是民間他覺得他對於這個刑事偵查工業有興趣的話他可以進來他不僅可以緩解我們現在所謂檢查事務官的內部深切或是工作士氣的問題"},{"start":12915.936,"end":12935.291,"text":"所以我是覺得這樣的一個制度新制是不是可以再考量因為我剛才看我們人事總署好像我們檢察官的相關缺額還有400多位所以我是覺得如果說未來再改革的話是不是有可能在人力配置上另外一個重點就是我這邊特別提到雖然這些小事情"},{"start":12936.556,"end":12936.836,"text":"主席"},{"start":12958.052,"end":12977.604,"text":"我們在談到很多次,我們回到常識來看,剛才很多先見也提到,我們現在副省制,真的大問題。如果從民間來看,從行政觀點的角度來看,大家分層負責,一省有一省的工作,二省有二省的重點,三省應該有它的職長。"},{"start":12981.287,"end":13002.98,"text":"當我們知道我們講說我們一省就是這個第一省是我們一個決定事實的一個親榮照擺很重要的機制大家就會把一省把它好好的盡心盡力把它做好不過像剛才講的我們剛才吳委員主席也提到我們教會節目為什麼玩兩次呢那你覺得那個會越變越勉嗎不會喔 不會這樣子喔"},{"start":13004.361,"end":13020.722,"text":"所以我看一下 我們看一下日本他們相關的數據我們未來 其實那時候許中立 許大院長他在講說我們這樣人民財產支付他很重要就是一個當然領頭羊希望能搭配配套的所謂的 類似所謂的審期資料做一個修改那這個我們已經講好久了"},{"start":13021.283,"end":13035.659,"text":"如果這個不改的話我就可以覺得我們大家一直在重複浪費我們的1、2、3省的資源或我們檢察官的人力的負擔那詳細的數字我就不提了可是很重要就是當你1、2省的角度任務很明確的時候"},{"start":13036.42,"end":13062.957,"text":"大家就知道我要很珍惜我每一個步驟然後更重要的重點就是我剛才提到日本的司法改革沒有在講說什麼司法犧牲什麼解什麼問題就跟我們剛才很多先前提到的那筆錄審判的問題為什麼要這麼多筆錄呢我們剛才一直提到審判的重點就是大家在法庭裡面把事情講清楚說明白那你看第一手資料原始資料大家就把它"},{"start":13063.957,"end":13078.503,"text":"講清楚嘛而不是在後面那個書增越多啊在後面就變成一個作文比賽我覺得那個真的是讓我們真的疲於奔命好那最後我想這個數字我就不提了那最後是覺得配套"},{"start":13079.844,"end":13080.344,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":13105.876,"end":13131.178,"text":"因為時間的關係我覺得司法的改革或是我們現在面對的其實就跟我們社會世界潮流是我們現在民間企業的主流一樣ESG案件要減量要環保然後重點是不要什麼東西都塞給法院我們真的一直大家都嘗試司法是最後一道防線可是我們要動不動不動就要利用司法"},{"start":13133.42,"end":13149.758,"text":"司法要有成本概念所以我是覺得我現在是最後講說要推我們司法的ESG簡單的概念就是如果大家知道我們司法成本我們檢察官的人力就是一千多名"},{"start":13151.88,"end":13173.438,"text":"該讓他是不是給他一定的職權不要什麼東西要起訴我現在你可以看看我們很多事情可能檢查不想負責或是很多民怨這個發生很多問題啦那再來就是每一個角色有他該做比如說我在下面講的檢警分流剛才那林達也提到了那92條現在92條稍微動一個字的話那可以減輕檢警很多負擔喔"},{"start":13177.661,"end":13205.977,"text":"關於起訴和職權在意等等都可以改最後剛才提到的副檢察官的制度檢察的助理或司法警察也就是說這些當我們要偵測檢察官助理的時候是不是相關的偵查機關它裡面角色配置我先以上提出這些概念簡單講就是我覺得聽起來早上聽到現在我覺得大家共識很高接下來就是大家要不要做 怎麼做想不想做 以上 謝謝各位"},{"start":13208.799,"end":13231.861,"text":"謝謝理事長剛剛理事長的資料裡面有一個其實上訴大概就一層而已嘛普通法院嘛那如果說不用上訴的案子他裁判書類可以簡化你等於九成的書類都可以簡化因為書類製作是院檢最辛苦的一件事嘛那其實這要趕快研議我個人看的資料"},{"start":13232.321,"end":13233.021,"text":"主席、專家學者、法官、檢察官"},{"start":13262.932,"end":13290.685,"text":"相關的朋友其實剛剛聽了很多大家的一些分享事實上我最近也有一些包括司法的一些不同的團體來跟我交換一些意見那我一個很深刻的感受就是說我們在推隨司法改革這麼多年就引述其中一位一個律師團體他告訴我說改來改去法官痛苦"},{"start":13291.479,"end":13314.942,"text":"然後檢察官痛苦 警察痛苦 律師痛苦 原告痛苦 被告痛苦 通通痛苦這就讓我覺得是 那到底我們這些年來在做的很多的事情到底誰是在這個改革的過程當中覺得很滿意的 覺得不痛苦"},{"start":13316.052,"end":13321.541,"text":"那所以換言之我們可以從很多數字來看其實真的我們的司法"},{"start":13322.537,"end":13345.781,"text":"病得蠻嚴重的而這病得很嚴重其實就是裡面我剛剛講不管是法官、檢察官、警察、律師、原告、被告都在痛苦漩渦當中而這一波很明顯的我們的司法人員承受了很大的痛苦那我看了很多數字,比方說2016年到2023年這8年地方法院受理的件數從290萬大增到364萬這個其實是真的是"},{"start":13350.852,"end":13376.617,"text":"蠻恐怖的數字 漲幅高達25%那對此法官人數從2071人增加到2196人 只成長了6%所以才會今天發生說今天法官不堪負荷的情況啊從這個數字上你就可以看到對法官來講 前線司法人員來講 他要面對的是什麼面對就是說 要嘛就把自己壓榨到不堪負荷"},{"start":13377.182,"end":13394.647,"text":"要嘛可能就會要面臨要不要裁判品質降低的問題所以這個是大環境上我覺得給司法人員很大很大我們講結構上如果不改變的話那造成的問題就越來越嚴重那另外新收案件數2016年到2023年民事是從63.73到61.86看起來數字有點下降"},{"start":13401.809,"end":13409.533,"text":"但是平均一案 結一案的所需日數從144.3日大幅暴增到192.23那形式的話 收件數從59.58為增61.51但是終結所需日數是71.65增加到"},{"start":13428.381,"end":13450.294,"text":"總結日數在分別增加33%和40%你看看案件數增加然後這個總結就是審案的時程也增加那你當然就捲進來我覺得就能夠理解為什麼我們的司法人員他今天負擔的這麼這麼大甚至產生所謂相關的悲劇那因此"},{"start":13450.974,"end":13457.11,"text":"今天我覺得是一個好的開始事實上不只法官 我看到檢察官的數字也是檢察官的話"},{"start":13459.281,"end":13478.09,"text":"2014年的數字是檢察官是有1398人那到現在3月是1413人10年增加15人但是呢平均每年每位檢察官每年偵查的新收件數是從2014年763.5件增加到2023年的1135.1件漲幅高達"},{"start":13488.996,"end":13507.915,"text":"48.7所以從案件量來說很明顯的不管是法官跟檢察官都是處在一個案件暴漲的一個狀態所以我覺得今天事實上聽到很多專家學者對於說怎麼樣在案件上其實不只是說今天外面在講說要增加我們司法官員額的問題"},{"start":13509.096,"end":13537.13,"text":"當然是解決問題的路徑之一但更重要是整個結構性的改變增加我們的審案的效率以及審案的品質那這個部分我覺得才有辦法去治本的來去解決很多問題那比方說我也看到就是說很多的一些改革的一些意見包括說要減緊分工也可以參考日本跟美國的一些法例"},{"start":13537.87,"end":13557.303,"text":"因為我們現在大概111年地檢署起訴人數65%是屬最重本刑5年以下有期徒刑之罪所以也有看到一些意見在研究說針對性質單純的犯罪可以採行日本美國的這個立法例檢警分工那把一些"},{"start":13558.423,"end":13584.191,"text":"法律要件單純案件情節輕微告訴哪一論的違罪交給警察然後聘請律師退休檢管做法律顧問來確保法律程序我覺得各方的很多意見我這邊有聽到那也會再請教我們的專家學者希望大家一起來精進我們現在司法體系當中所面臨的問題 以上 謝謝好 謝謝 那接下來我們請柯中教授"},{"start":13595.707,"end":13620.262,"text":"委員 還有在座幾位委員還有在座我們司法院跟法務部的長官還有在座的學者專家 大家好我是臺灣大學柯克中那因為這個上個禮拜臨時接到這個任務那稍微時間有點趕因為剛好我自己這段時間事情也稍微比較多一點所以來不及提出"},{"start":13621.002,"end":13621.142,"text":"主席"},{"start":13640.674,"end":13640.834,"text":"主席"},{"start":13662.786,"end":13683.465,"text":"對司法對社會的公信力的問題也就是說它其實某種程度上是環環相扣的當我們希望提升司法在整個社會裡面特別是對國民的司法公信力的信服度的時候它也會轉回過頭來變成是對司法環境裡面工作的相關人員的一些"},{"start":13684.987,"end":13699.722,"text":"不管你是在客觀的數據比如說我對案件流程的管考乃至於他的辦案期限的要求甚至是要求對相關判決理由的說明他會一定程度上產生影響也就是說儘管我們"},{"start":13700.743,"end":13722.398,"text":"考慮到說希望今天我們的公聽會的主題確實是在司法環境如何能夠去在未來能夠去做改善但它其實同一個時間也會是一個對司法就是說這整個社會對司法有什麼樣一個期待但我必須要回過頭來講說其實這個是環環相扣但又不全然是同一個"},{"start":13723.419,"end":13749.593,"text":"程序上的一個問題因為我必須要講比如說因為我自己本身在司法的領域裡面有一半算一半因為我曾經也本來是在司法體系裡面工作只是我沒有完成那一個訓練然後之後我轉到做了學術上的研究我另外一半目前為止他還是司法環境裡面工作的人作為眷屬可以這樣講就是說其實我很清楚我知道我太太她平常工作的狀態"},{"start":13750.694,"end":13776.872,"text":"他幾乎在法官的時間裡面投入了很大的他的時間跟他的生命講白一點我是要父兼母職因為太太做不了的事情我就必須要幫忙去做還好我剛好做了這一件基本上我時間上比較能夠安排我必須要講其實學界也有自己本身的壓力不是我想剛剛前面那個呂教授也提到就是說這個社會哪一個人不辛苦"},{"start":13777.432,"end":13797.684,"text":"沒有錯,每個人都很辛苦可是為什麼司法這件事情必須要提上檯面上來講因為我自己對自己的工作要求這是一回事情但司法確實是關乎到人民的他希望獲得國家給他一個正義上的最後一個支撐那也因此我想今天很開心"},{"start":13799.585,"end":13822.737,"text":"高興聽到其實在這個地方我們三黨基本上對司法改革如何去做改善環境的這個部分其實有很高度的共識當然在做法上面來講如何能夠去兼顧司法品質的提升跟對人民的公信力的說服這件事情我相信在這個過程當中裡面是一個非常重要關注的重點也會在我們今天午朝委的那個"},{"start":13823.657,"end":13850.742,"text":"堅持底下這個工作能夠有未來有幾個進展的可能性那我想就因為我書面上沒有提那我就用口頭上的方式來一一的談幾個問題第一個是關於人力增補因為其實今天不管是司法院跟法務部其實都談到這個問題隨著人員的大量流失不管他是為了身心的緣故或者是為了他自己本身的職業生涯的規劃或者因為退休保障的問題"},{"start":13851.602,"end":13866.553,"text":"無論如何現在司法在第一線工作人員確實有大量流失的這個問題增補人力的話我想分兩個層次去談一個是法官人力增補的問題但另外一個其實蠻重要的是協助法官把"},{"start":13867.073,"end":13867.553,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13886.627,"end":13904.095,"text":"那回到我們講剛剛法官或檢察官的這個他的中心的期待我們其實很清楚知道法官應該被要求是在聽審跟做判斷上面這個是他核心工作整個法院或檢察署其實都是為了要支援這樣一個工作而存在"},{"start":13904.835,"end":13926.946,"text":"因此這些資源的人力的配置 包括我們幾位黨團 其實都有提到一些關於法院組織法包括行政法院組織法或是法院組織法相關的人力的配置能夠讓它法制化 進入到協助法官跟檢察官 把他核心工作這件事情做好吳寧這個當然也非常重要"},{"start":13927.626,"end":13944.565,"text":"人力的這個部分我相信主管部會、主管的院會、院部都會自己來提出他自己的相關的想法跟規劃那我只是提一件事情就是說因為人力的增加未來勢必涉及到對人力的相關的管考跟他的這個數量的問題"},{"start":13946.767,"end":13974.42,"text":"我說實在話我自己以前曾經在司法官訓練所的時候我們當時候有一些請外界外面的一些資深的律師來做一些課程上演講的時候當時我印象很深刻有一位合夥的就大署的合夥律師來司法官訓練所裡面去演講的時候他說我是絕對不會轉任法官的啦我說為什麼不轉任法官因為我在事務所我做一件事情我可以找好多個人來幫我完成"},{"start":13975.14,"end":14003.812,"text":"但我如果去當法官,我不僅要從齊別開始排擠,而且我就一個人那我當時聽到這一句話的時候,其實對我來講是一個蠻大的一個震撼就是為什麼,包括我自己在內,現在其實也有招募學者希望他能夠轉任法官可是這件事情不太容易在學者群裡面產生一個共識除了齊別的考慮以外,專業上無法配合這個是當然我們可以講法官也可以從考試裡面去禁用,但"},{"start":14004.172,"end":14029.988,"text":"一旦我們現在100多個人入局的份數一下子大幅擴增的時候一定會將來產生司法的這些專門我們希望他去做法官檢察官的這一邊的那個品質當然不是說一定壞只是說當從原先的100個人一下子擴增的200、300個那這個時候要短期去補上這個人數的時候恐怕"},{"start":14032.449,"end":14050.544,"text":"這個確實會產生在一定程度上的我相信因為進來以後不是隨隨便便你要讓他走人就走人的問題這個有許多的這個你的資源分配就包括你的法官評鑑檢察官評鑑制度這些都必須要能夠配套制度可能都要去做對應的問題"},{"start":14052.546,"end":14052.786,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14070.998,"end":14085.286,"text":"他本身有他的極致跟限制講白一點就是我不是受 比如說我不是 我自己是研究稅的但你叫我去看帳部 憑證每一個東西去做審查這個說實在是超出我能力的範圍"},{"start":14086.286,"end":14107.626,"text":"我相信跟我同樣背景的法律人的法官他在各案裡面的判斷裡面他也其實是需要輔助人力來幫他去做許多的這些的先前的輔助工作的這些的完成他才能夠把他的工作特別是你今天在做聽審跟判決你要做判斷的時候他才能夠把這件工作做好"},{"start":14110.348,"end":14128.566,"text":"法院法官補助人力,包括轉任、考試禁用、支援法官檢察官的相關輔助系統,我相信司法院跟法務部會有自己本身的規劃這是第一個我要談第二個是案件管考,因為時間很有限"},{"start":14134.251,"end":14150.348,"text":"因為身體無法負荷退下去其實談得非常深刻的一個案件觀考這個地方我還是講一下其實因為檢查或者刑事還有行政訴訟跟民事訴訟其實我們的重點會不太一樣"},{"start":14151.169,"end":14168.381,"text":"有一些東西是著重在他們事實判斷認定的問題有些特別是我自己本身是在行政訴訟部門的這個部分我們其實有很多是法律解釋適用的疑義事實反而他沒有那麼大的爭議那法律解釋適用這個部分又跟我們的立法品質有很密切的關聯性"},{"start":14169.121,"end":14169.281,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14185.031,"end":14213.049,"text":"理由的簡化某些程度上事實認定可以簡單去做說明如果今天有照相機你今天交通違規當然很快就可以去做認定這一點無庸置疑可是許多比較是複雜的法律解釋適用的問題它其實還是必須要透過理由書能夠去讓那個判斷的結果能夠具有對國民的說服力這個是提升司法公信力一個蠻重要的一環那第三個我們講設備增進我自己剛好對不起"},{"start":14214.472,"end":14231.843,"text":"我簡單再補充兩分鐘就好就是說我自己曾經擔任懲戒法院裡面的參審員我自己去開庭的結果我自己的感覺就是說當然我們就整個在法庭裡面我們要等待把筆錄寫好就整個開庭大家進行了很熱烈的時候問問問"},{"start":14233.484,"end":14248.469,"text":"好 我們等一下就把這個東西先寫好了因為我們的訴訟程序的遵守完全是以筆錄政治啊那這個地方我一直在想有沒有可能有比較好的改進方法那當然這個地方還是由司法院跟部裡面最後面去做考量"},{"start":14248.929,"end":14266.79,"text":"最後我講一個訴訟程序的經濟的問題剛剛其實前面有先進有提到有一些訴訟費用過低的問題我其實也碰過一個蠻好玩的案例啊300塊對不對或是洗嫩訴訟4000塊大家一起猜一猜大家一起去提個訴訟大家還可以共同分擔一下這個"},{"start":14268.953,"end":14269.033,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14300.778,"end":14301.32,"text":"江世民教授"},{"start":14315.547,"end":14333.864,"text":"主席以及各位委員還有司法院的這些主管大家午安那因為我部分的內容已經方國昌大委員已經引用過了那我大家可以自行參考"},{"start":14335.686,"end":14362.352,"text":"那首先我當然對於我國大部分任老任怨的法官我先表示敬意但是因為現在這個問題涉及制度改革那制度改革基本上我是希望能夠在一個理性的環境下去討論才不會有過度讓步跟偷軌的問題"},{"start":14364.156,"end":14382.399,"text":"首先我還是要表明就是 四眼電院法官的過世不一定是因為案件過量的關係啦他可能是還有其他他們 他們內部一些其他的不良法官造成的一個被調查的效應造成"},{"start":14383.38,"end":14405.347,"text":"所以我是覺得一碼歸一碼但是我們法院有沒有過牢?它是過牢的你只要去看看新北的地檢署裡面的檢視官檢視官辦公室是不是到晚上12點還在辦公你去看看高等法院的法官是不是到晚上還是燈火通明基本上是可以看出是過牢的"},{"start":14406.391,"end":14420.016,"text":"你只要看看過往多少書記官有的也是自我了解有的就是生重病最近也才有生重病那我們法官當然也有真的是也是身心很不堪你說過老事常過老這是現實的問題但是我們還是認為基於一種"},{"start":14424.724,"end":14453.194,"text":"一個社會現實底下那如果說我們台灣有什麼觀念要改變的話那就是我們要不要建立一個每個人都應必須要有一個適足足夠的休憩的權利啦這個觀念要改變嘛因為你如果沒有觀念改變台積電的員工也過勞各個大銀行的你都不曉得他們被壓榨到多厲害連經理人出去泰國去玩一下還是一直賴一直賴區長一直賴要你在泰國要寫報告"},{"start":14454.907,"end":14478.419,"text":"那種壓力基本上有的甚至經理人還偷光衣服到路上去逛整個台灣呈現一種勞動這種背景、文化的基本上是一種被剝削、被壓榨的狀況所以你如果認為說有什麼觀念要改變就是我們必須要把這個基本權建立起來每個人每個人都必須要有足夠的、適當的、足夠的一個休憩的權利然後用這樣去計算嘛"},{"start":14479.139,"end":14503.778,"text":"總是才有一個計算基準說我們到時候我們法官到底是不是應該要限量分案那我們到底要補充多少原額然後要告訴人民跟人民對話說你可能有些案件要等今年10月來的可能要明年1月才會分案讓大家要有點耐心啊然後呢一旦呈現像美國上世紀70年代的時候到最後宣布自己民事司法失敗了"},{"start":14504.699,"end":14520.836,"text":"只好走向ADR所以整個幾十年都在發展ADR不管調解、不管仲裁、不管是中間評價、中立評價、專業評價、mini trial一大堆全部都ADR出來了因為司法已經失控了案件管理已經失控了"},{"start":14521.797,"end":14549.409,"text":"所以說這基本上是大家必須要去思考的每個人民來到法院他祈求一個司法救濟一個卑微的救濟但是來的他面臨的法官事實上是不可測的大部分都是很認真大部分都是溫和很和善的很人道的但是也有部分事實上像我最近才聽到律師跟我抱怨他在台中部中部一個法院竟然一個案子把他偷了4年都不開庭"},{"start":14550.604,"end":14577.925,"text":"這是不可能的事情,但是還是可能啊,它還是發生的四年他都不動,等到他去跟院長抱怨,院長本來還拒見後來他說要去跟司法院院長抱怨,他才接見接見之後,才趕快找另外一個法院幫他辦掉人民就讓你在那邊拖延時間,在那邊延宕時間所以我的書面裡面才會講說,那你要學歐盟啊要學歐盟,要學德國啊,人家就立成法了啊你如果中華民國立出這個法,我就跟你說我服了你"},{"start":14578.766,"end":14594.771,"text":"就台灣的民事司法如果或說怎麼樣把他拖延太久了你要負賠償責任啊阿不然人家一個建築物怪蓋在那邊希望你兩年趕快截掉才能繼續蓋結果被拖了這幾年建築物就廢掉了工程就廢掉了阿你這樣的司法呈現一種失能狀態你還跟他講什麼呢"},{"start":14596.787,"end":14618.64,"text":"所以說我是認為說每個人民他來到法院基本上他都是希望求助的我們還是有義務去幫人民守住這個關卡那我是認為說如果我們現在讓法官開始有一個事主的休憩權這個觀念開始拓展然後之後也相關的立法跟審判拓展到各個行業我覺得這樣台灣才會變成一個人道化的國家"},{"start":14619.46,"end":14642.488,"text":"我是覺得這種比較人道主義的國家這樣就會形成這才是我希望達到的目標啦那不是說把這種議題變成是一種很渲染很感性的然後甚至偷軌的那到時候搞到最後被情惹然後弄出來的制度變成是一種是很可能造成國家偷軌例如剛才講到立法理由是判決理由"},{"start":14643.376,"end":14671.869,"text":"判決理由德國三一三條A基本上他不是這樣規定的啦德國基本上人家他的規定是如果判決完全沒辦法上訴的時候你上訴不合法的那種情形可以不用付理由或者是當事人捨棄的時候也可以不付理由或者是你如果是可以當庭宣判新政議程然後可以把部分重要理由寫在你的判決筆錄上的那也可以不要人家是有付條件的啦"},{"start":14672.711,"end":14695.535,"text":"哪裡有跟你說判決不用復留 為什麼?因為德國的基本法 聽審權 合法聽審權 我們16條訴訟權 包括聽審權 聽審權就包括法院審酌義務啊你聽了人家 喔 聽審喔 當事人講一大堆 結果法官你在那邊打瞌睡 根本不審酌回去根本要自己在那邊玩其他的東西 也沒有審酌 沒有審酌 沒有出現在裁判署長怎麼可以呢?所以那是一個審酌義務問題 這一個憲法強制的問題欸"},{"start":14698.855,"end":14718.533,"text":"所以德國還是沒辦法退讓阿你說台灣能不能退讓坦白說阿你如果採九人陪審團你就採這種陪審團制度的話新加坡制度的話你陪審團制度你判決書坦白說你不用去交代什麼一大堆理由因為已經大家都這樣子都認為已經超過他的新政了我那不互理我覺得OK喔你事實怎麼樣子"},{"start":14719.594,"end":14744.479,"text":"阿不然人家怎麼決定要不要上訴你沒有理由人家決定你怎麼上訴搞到最後本來九成不上訴人家九成是因為服了你中環民口這麼認真的法官寫的理由他才不上訴因為你到最後我都不負理由就一大堆跑到二審去二審就崩潰掉阿那哪裡有這樣子的事情所以說我是覺得要慎重不可以被過度勒索一切都要回歸理性本來剛才在下面我一直講說我千萬不要像黃國昌那樣激動"},{"start":14745.879,"end":14745.939,"text":"主席"},{"start":14762.467,"end":14789.426,"text":"像我後面也強大ADR嘛 其實我們 我裡面也說我們調解法 草案都出來了啊立法院只要再更進一步把調解法裡面 把它變調解人 將來在台灣也變成是一個專業專門職業的話 變成活絡 你在美國 在德國人家也都是啊 遇到紛爭也會去找調解人 他就是一個專業人幫你調解之後做一定的效率的規定 那個都是老規劃中立評價或密西根調解 這裡面 我們都是一個很好制度都可以用的嘛"},{"start":14790.026,"end":14808.673,"text":"那司法院當然你有責任去把他說你要限量分案那你要計算出來啊你要一個合理的計算出來嘛像剛才委員講的其實那個都可以參考或者說我裡面也有講你依照類型去大家那麼聰明拜託司法介紹的人才非常非常多捏大家難道那麼英明底下你計算不出來點數嗎"},{"start":14810.478,"end":14828.63,"text":"你們半小時、半小時一點或一小時一點然後去計算整個一週多少點然後一個月多少點或一年多少點總是要給法官一定的啊你一個案件量大家基本評估當然部分會有怎麼樣會增減那到時候再調那個是技術問題啊你要去計算出來嘛我覺得那個是合理的啊是可行的啊"},{"start":14830.972,"end":14840.243,"text":"這樣子大家才有對話,才不會是講說只是這樣漫天要價,我覺得制度討論不可以這樣當然民宿法我們有很多規定,就是爛樹的禁止,還有專家參審、審理計畫,我們這裡很多,進階版的"},{"start":14849.173,"end":14872.969,"text":"我覺得這部分看我的書面請大家參考一下啦這個我希望將來能夠限收甚至限收二審的變更追加反訴或什麼我覺得那個制度就大家參考我的書面啦基本上是基本上很多是還可以做的啦制度面其實還是可以理性去對話去討論的那我的結論就是這樣啦因為基於時間的關係大家也累了我覺得人事緣和可以爭"},{"start":14874.363,"end":14881.34,"text":"分案量可以減部分事件類型、辦案期限也可以酌情延長但是管控不可減"},{"start":14882.492,"end":14910.331,"text":"管控反而,因為你既然已經事主,如果事主人力,如果你已經有坦白說啦,我們現在這兩條線嘛,一條到底是法檢要增加,還是他的服務準也要增加因為我以前的理想是認為,應該是大檢制、大法官制啦,就是你要主管制,變一個team我會team,我leader,你底下有時候是開陳報,底下你們寫好了裁判書,我們來看,我們來逐一檢視理由我本來理想是這樣啦,其實現在還有一點這樣的渴望啦"},{"start":14912.672,"end":14940.036,"text":"阿如果給你這樣的事主人力之後當然我們管控不可考阿因為我就跟你說你面對的法官大部分都是認真的但才少部分很混的你要相信就你不要不相信很混的最後啦我跟你講我們台灣的法官阿坦白說如果我們的公信力阿只比廟柱少一點點什麼改革是不可能的呢你說什麼權力多大不用不理由書那都是可能的好 謝謝大家"},{"start":14942.765,"end":14971.62,"text":"好 謝謝那我們下一位請好 那個我這邊先提一下就是因為今天其實有很多第一線的同仁有提一些相關的想法嘛那我還是覺得司法院可能真的要司法院跟法務部能夠就這些第一線的同仁他所提到的能夠"},{"start":14973.555,"end":14978.959,"text":"有所回復,麻煩司法院及法務部做到"},{"start":14988.437,"end":15012.933,"text":"來 我想剛剛我們公明了數多學者專家非常實務界的意見那大意上就跟我們主席召委所定的這個題目呢就是透過這樣的一個文書或行政的減量或簡化減輕我們基層司法人員的負擔但是我這裡要提出一個怎麼樣因應國法案的增補能力還有透過救援來賭詐降低案件的總量往下看"},{"start":15014.034,"end":15039.454,"text":"我認為我們看今天的新聞長期虐兒致死國民法官重判16年我想大部分人都只看到表面就說對啦你看這個國民法官終於體現了國民的法感讓這樣社會所憎恨的所厭惡的這樣的暴行能夠相當於殺人罪的方式將他處刑但是有沒有想過在這個背後我們看到什麼未來的需求往下看"},{"start":15040.526,"end":15047.831,"text":"其實我們說正義失控的原因 失控的正義我不曉得主席是不是從失控的陪審團這部電影得到的靈感這個其實說到陪審團 我們在推動國民法、國安法我們看到了到2026年適用的範圍要擴大到貪污等重罪"},{"start":15056.576,"end":15084.227,"text":"我們知道目前我們基層整個地院已經用了很大的人力一個國法案大概就要把我們整個地院的精英能力都耗盡了可是我們其他人力還要快什麼快被炸氣的案件所陰沒那司法委員蠟燭兩頭燒要如何解決我們不只要看到現在因為炸氣暴增的量造成我們基層人員的負荷我們要看到未來的新的制度的實施對我們人力的使用消耗也是越來越嚴重好 那我還是回顧一下今天"},{"start":15085.107,"end":15104.628,"text":"在於案件或文書或行政減量的部分我談另外一個往前頭的下一頁就是源頭其實今天我們新增的案件有超過一半是經濟犯罪是詐欺這種我稱之為病毒式的犯罪那基本上是因為有網路經濟的發達還有數位金融的科技的進步他就兩個特色一個是大量複製一個是傳播迅速"},{"start":15107.071,"end":15133.668,"text":"大量複製以至於他可以很快的接觸被害人很容易得手傳播迅速迅速傳播是什麼透過金流他很快的移轉使得事後的犯罪偵查追查追張非常的困難所以呢目前我們檢察官在地方上遇到就是說如何證明犯罪所得如何證明犯罪人都是涉及到這些在金融體系上金流在數位化之後所造成的一個檢察官的負荷要去收集這麼大量的資訊才能證明他的"},{"start":15135.689,"end":15135.809,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15160.077,"end":15177.275,"text":"就是抓代言者很快的把代言者找出來要找出代言者要鎖定他的足跡可能某種程度要限制他的侵犯透過科技工具某種程度呢會涉及到人民的隱私但是一旦找到了代言者我們就能有效的防渡另外一個是什麼"},{"start":15178.116,"end":15193.862,"text":"從被感染者我們大家戴口罩、勤洗手、少出門減少接觸的機會事實上檢察官是從後端找代言者但是我們其他的部門包括金融體系包括經濟部等這些前端包括電信傳輸怎麼樣讓他減少接觸或接觸的量減少經流移轉的速度減緩透過量的減少速度減緩才能夠減少這些經濟犯罪繼續擴大的原因好往下看"},{"start":15206.866,"end":15228.534,"text":"那最後呢大概就是這樣的一個主張在上週呢漸進減改的時候我也去做出這樣的表達因為我過去在財政委員會現在在司法法制委員會我們很清楚這件事情不是司法界的事情這件事情是整個國家社會共同面對的問題所以不能只由司法部門來自己想辦法自立救濟他必須整個社會就像COVID-19一樣全部的動員起來"},{"start":15231.155,"end":15249.068,"text":"不是只是聽任醫療機構去找代言者只是聽任醫療機構宣導民眾多戴口罩、勤洗手、少出門不是的其他的部門都要相對應的配合所以我在這裡提出的從金流的部分、從資訊流的部分怎麼樣加強管理減緩金流的速度怎麼樣在資訊流的部分透過電信傳輸業者我們降低詐騙資訊的傳播的數量"},{"start":15253.311,"end":15278.309,"text":"包括分級分流來管理包括提高它的成本這都是有效的去減少我們經濟犯罪或者說病毒式犯罪增加了這大量的案量癱瘓了我們的司法體系最後我們往下看齁那麼其實呢還要想到未來未雨綢繆現在大家想要增補人力其實人力對司法人力大概是我們各種的公務服務人力中最珍惜的它跟不亞於醫師其實跟醫師一樣很難培養培養很久要用在對的地方"},{"start":15281.832,"end":15291.58,"text":"所以我認為像經濟犯罪、像病毒式犯罪這些大量相同格式的犯罪其實透過行政減量、透過格式簡化、透過AI讓它去想辦法消化但是我們增補的人力要看到未來的需求未來當我們推動國民法案越來越需要這些高階的人力來應付這些複雜的案件這才是我們司法在面對目前的情況也能夠籌謀未來的需求以上"},{"start":15307.844,"end":15310.759,"text":"好 謝謝鍾委員那下一位我們請蕭檢察官發言"},{"start":15324.636,"end":15350.372,"text":"主席在場各位先進大家好我是台北地檢署檢察官蕭永昌那這個今天我最主要這個我發言的部分的話可能是針對這個檢方這邊的這個工作負擔的部分來表現一下個人的淺見那這個簡單來說呢其實現在檢方工作的沉重負擔很多是來自於這個詐欺案件那詐欺案件的這個處理呢還需要很多這個行政機關像是經營管會或者是這個速發部"},{"start":15351.132,"end":15351.532,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15371.425,"end":15371.565,"text":"檢察官"},{"start":15395.977,"end":15422.386,"text":"處理案件務必一定要把人起訴感覺起來這個檢察官就是務必要把人起訴很多時候這個民眾的觀感是這樣但是不管是我自己的工作經驗也好又或者是法務部統計的資料也好事實上地檢署的這個案件的終結的情形它事實上呈現了一個狀況什麼狀況就是檢察官處理的案件裡面有超過4成將近5成的案件是不起訴的"},{"start":15424.187,"end":15432.575,"text":"他呈現了一個什麼狀況他呈現一個狀況其實就是說這個很多時候這個一些民眾他提告案件他本身他到底是不是所謂的這個"},{"start":15435.805,"end":15455.099,"text":"值得花助很多司法資源去偵辦案件本身它是一個很存疑的這個部分為什麼因為以這個刑事案件來說提告不需要任何成本提告不需要任何成本你甚至連可能就是連寫撞死的錢都省了你直接到地檢署這個案例申告就好那中間不用繳任何裁判費"},{"start":15455.899,"end":15478.253,"text":"所以說它事實上這個刑事案件的部分提高無成本的這種情況之下如果再搭配一般人心遇到這個免費案件就免費的事情大家就想要盡量的利用盡可能利用的這種狀況之下很多時候它就會演變成這個濫用的情形所以說我個人覺得這個部分我們在處理上我們應該要減少就應該要提高這個"},{"start":15482.135,"end":15502.647,"text":"提高濫送的成本 進而讓源頭的案件數減少不然不管人力再怎麼增加 案件數假設沒有減少的話事實上人力的增加永遠都追不上案件的速度所以我覺得很重要的部分就是我們要一開始減少一些無謂的案件也就是提高濫送的成本以簡單來說的話"},{"start":15504.708,"end":15524.978,"text":"我最主要今天會有三個想法第一個我非常支持李聖傑教授說的自訴先行跟自訴先行的部分我個人除了自訴先行之外我也是希望看能不能修改《刑事訴訟法》的部分來讓一些案件能夠從檢察官偵查的部分轉自訴這是第一點"},{"start":15529.38,"end":15532.061,"text":"2、搭配現行自訴程序、律師強制代理3、行刑訴訟可考慮課徵訴訟費,透過這三種方式來墊高濫訴成本,進而減少無謂案件加入首先回到一開始,為什麼我支持李聖傑教授的"},{"start":15555.709,"end":15582.684,"text":"自述先行 或者是我這邊我要主張說一些案件我覺得應該要裁量轉自述其實最主要來說 有一些案件 舉例來說像是妨害名譽案件 有人告我 有人說在網路上或在現實生活中說我是笨蛋 說我是醜男 我很生氣 我就告他妨害名譽那這件案件在偵辦上面 有任何證據調查的難度嗎 沒有他其實簡單來說 我們今天只要審酌一件事情就是"},{"start":15583.786,"end":15583.806,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":15606.826,"end":15623.941,"text":"很有可能是不起訴或者是無罪的這種案件我覺得這個大有可疑特別是很多法案名義的案件當時提告的動機我們講難聽一點他只是想要搞人用免錢的方式搞人免錢方式搞人可能是一種另外一種更惡劣的是什麼"},{"start":15624.261,"end":15637.495,"text":"他其實在網路上故意散發一些會招惹眾怒的言論當別人罵他的時候他接下來就逐一的提告然後用這種方式以行逼命也不能講以行逼命簡單來說他就是私下去聯繫對方要求對方用錢"},{"start":15641.219,"end":15641.239,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":15655.916,"end":15656.356,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15681.463,"end":15699.303,"text":"後來就要說他就要某種程度他就要付錢然後再來就是我這邊就是最後這邊所講的我覺得我支持這個刑事案件這邊可能要考量這個訴訟費用課徵的部分當然這個因為訴訟費用課徵的部分他其實刑事案件他有某種程度來說他涉及公益那我個人目前的潛見我覺得"},{"start":15701.105,"end":15713.57,"text":"這個如果這個在檢察官偵查過後檢察官偵查過後如果有提起公訴的案件提起公訴案件那其實某種程度來說這部分的話我覺得也許我們這個部分可以說它是免輸入費但是如果是這個調查過後這個"},{"start":15716.051,"end":15740.385,"text":"這部分的話 這個不起訴呢 我個人會覺得說 這個也許可以這個原則上克徵 但是例外情形可免因為有些案件它其實本身有一些會案不明 像是這個信心漢案件這個最後做不起訴 很多時候並不是檢察官這邊不相信被害人而是證據的問題 那我們也不會怪被害人他提起這個告訴所以說我覺得這個在輸送費用的這個部分的話 我覺得這個制度本身它是可以做一個考量的"},{"start":15742.456,"end":15760.01,"text":"以上是希望刑事說明法這邊能夠做一些調整的部分也就是跟司法院這邊能夠做一個呼籲至於法務部內的部分我這邊想要做的呼籲是希望在意案件發回重演也就是不要動不動就發回一些在意案件為什麼這樣講因為很多時候造成檢察官工作負擔的很多時候是一些很"},{"start":15768.897,"end":15784.287,"text":"不營養的案件 舉例來說像管委會 後手的管委會覺得前手管委會帳目做得不清 他就告背刑 告侵占 告詐欺 之類很多但是他們又不請律師 什麼案件他就一坨告那檢察官這時候必須"},{"start":15785.208,"end":15809.788,"text":"一坨告的這種情況之下檢察官必須要花很多的心力去幫他整理金流幫他整理帳目幫他整理犯罪事實但是因為一坨爛泥給檢察官但檢察官這時候必須要去做整理那只要整理得稍微不好的話那很多時候他就變成是高檢所發回理由說這個部分可能沒有詳查什麼之類的但是說實在的這個部分這個公益性"},{"start":15810.228,"end":15810.668,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":15833.989,"end":15860.557,"text":"認定上能夠從嚴﹑直接讓當事人有機會以申請準與自述的方式去跟法院做主張那也逼迫這類型的告訴人他們去請律師好好的去自己整理自己的問題自己為自己提告的事情去做相關的舉證以及事實的整理的義務而不是一團爛你給檢察官然後怎麼樣整理都整理得不對然後一直被挑三檢四"},{"start":15861.357,"end":15868.199,"text":"這個部分我是希望以法務部的內部的部分來說我希望在議的部分能夠發揮重演給當事人多一些提早能夠准許申請自述的空間這個部分最後想要表達的是雖然說我這邊剛剛有人呼籲說希望能夠讓自述的部分能夠增加但這部分我個人覺得它未必會增加法院的工作量為什麼這樣講"},{"start":15891.107,"end":15895.633,"text":"這個想法事實上很簡單因為其實講到錢就傷感情很多律師都知道你只要跟當事人講到說我諮詢收多少錢我也認為我要收多少錢很多當事人就說那我回去再想想所以說感覺起來好像自訴案件會造成法院的案件上的負擔但事實上不會因為很多時候光是看到那個價目表"},{"start":15911.711,"end":15916.436,"text":"當事人可能就覺得那就算所以這部分的話我就覺得說這個也許是應該是可以做一個考量修法的方向讓當事人多冷靜一點最後 那這個非常感謝吳委員以及其他立法委員對這個司法整個大環境的支持那因為今天時間有限那也希望這個"},{"start":15932.33,"end":15958.787,"text":"委員之後也能夠關照一下書記官團體因為其實書記官團體不管是檢察官也好、法官團體也好都是我們非常重要的夥伴跟支撐的力量但是很多時候書記官團體的人才流動很頻繁或者是優秀人才沒辦法留住同樣的也會造成檢察機關跟司法機關在工作處理上面的一些困難非常感謝今天有這樣的機會 謝謝"},{"start":15962.108,"end":15962.489,"text":"李政華理事長"},{"start":15976.612,"end":16000.463,"text":"謝謝吳委員的邀請還有各位部會首長還有各位專家學者我們實務界的法官檢察官大家好我是李政華李律師今天代表司法改革公安部署協會我們協會跟明天是改革基金會是不一樣的我們是2015年成立的新的協會跟著蔡英文總統的司法改革的步調成立的新的協會那今天呢"},{"start":16002.007,"end":16028.781,"text":"我要來分享的主題是我們這個四個提綱裡面的第四個提綱就是怎麼樣來在訴訟外來解決案件不要讓案子進入法院那我想這麼多案件大家都看出來了進入法院進入檢察官系統大家的壓力都很重"},{"start":16031.56,"end":16060.581,"text":"善良的檢察官堅持的檢察官他就會變成壓力過大長期下來就會變成過勞早晚會出問題那聰明的檢察官呢不想要變過勞他就會怎麼樣聰明的法官會怎麼做抓大放小抓一個重點就判啊為什麼上訴神啊一樣啊重來一次啊你不服上訴嘛上訴"},{"start":16064.076,"end":16084.289,"text":"造成什麼程序審理過程不正義造成裁判品質低落結果呢司法性難度會高嗎當然不會嘛那我不服上訴啊看看日本的上訴率4%美國的上訴率7、8%台灣的上訴率30%這個是笑死人的一百件有30件上訴"},{"start":16092.438,"end":16111.475,"text":"上訴之後,大家又發揮更審又發揮更審,更換人家又發揮更審,最高法院又發揮更審那案子辦得完嗎?永遠辦不完,怎麼辦?但是大家今天其實談下來其實是有交集的,有很具體的交集和共識"},{"start":16113.2,"end":16135.233,"text":"事在人為這是制度設計的問題不是一個利用一個法官之詞、書籍官之詞或是怎樣有還婚的這個問題是老問題常在已經存續那麼久的事情我們應該用我們的經驗、我們的智慧還有我們的勇氣去做改革所以"},{"start":16136.238,"end":16162.315,"text":"問題在制度設計為什麼別人的制度設計這樣子會造成這樣的效果為什麼別人的制度設計會讓進入法院的案件那麼少然後讓法官判下來之後上訴率那麼低這個不難啊只要去研究就可以了那我今天策略上呢我們要解決這些案源解決這些事情降低法官案件率第一個策略就是增加人力嘛但是我想大部分的"},{"start":16163.479,"end":16176.524,"text":"今天與會的專家學者跟我看法一樣,慎重!增加一個法官,只是增加一個法官嗎?增加一個檢察官,只是增加一個檢察官嗎?NO!增加一個法官,他要不要出一段配合?要不要入室配合?要不要辦公廳設?要不要宿舍?要不要退休準備金?要不要增加管考?"},{"start":16184.534,"end":16199.231,"text":"不簡單 這個東西要慎重我的看法是把現有缺的人力補足就可以了限制編的編制的人力補足就好了就連現在編制內的人數都給不足了這個部分先解決還是重點那次類2是什麼呢"},{"start":16200.612,"end":16222.686,"text":"就是增加當事人的訴訟成本今天也蠻多我們食物界的剛剛包括我們的消費檢察官都有提到我們要增加當事人去打官司的成本那這部分今天我沒有做我有做一些但是今天沒有空來做這個特別報導就是說你要讓他精神時間要花更多下去你要讓他金錢的成本要花更多下去"},{"start":16224.516,"end":16248.068,"text":"這個地方剛好我們江教授有提到就是說你要學習律師的和解制度或是所謂的密西根制的調解制度就是說我今天在調解委員會在調解的時候我提出的調解方案本來是可以被接受的結果你不接受你打官司結果法官判的結果是比我調解方案還高或是跟我調解方案一樣的內容對不起那這段期間你所產生的律師費訴訟費用你都要賠我"},{"start":16250.114,"end":16277.002,"text":"這事情本來在調解委員會就可以解決事情啊 結果你要上法院啊是不是 類似這樣的制度OK 好 那我們回到我今天的重點就是在 要截斷送援那我分成三個部分來講當然我這個是一個拋磚引玉的看法還沒有非常深入 也需要立法的修法也需要我們主管機關有勇氣發布命令下去然後讓大家來遵守起訴成階段"},{"start":16278.635,"end":16292.629,"text":"起訴或審判前階段以及審判中階段分三個來看那我今天主要來因為時間關係我談最主要是談第一個階段部分就是說很簡單我們分別案件的類型然後讓我們的專業的人員進入調解"},{"start":16297.52,"end":16324.984,"text":"那這個有前車之鑑 這個有非常好的 前面的成功的案例譬如說消保案件 消費者保護案件譬如說這個勞資正義案件 譬如說交通失控案件這些都有專業的人在前端 在協助處理就可以把這個案件呢 在前端就化解掉了 不用進入訴訟那我們模仿這樣的一個想法 這樣的一個適度設計去看"},{"start":16326.323,"end":16354.125,"text":"第一個我提到的是行政調處很多事情其實在行政機關因為它本身也是行政機關的業務不管是家暴、交通財閥事件、鄰居糾紛、私生衝突案件其實它都涉及到行政機關行政機關在前頭的部分如果我們運用行政機關所賦予的專業的人力去投入包括我們律師界去投入協助那麼就在前端把它解決掉不要讓它進入法院"},{"start":16355.8,"end":16376.78,"text":"譬如說加封裁法意義目前是 真名意義是裁決所裁法那裁決所幾乎都為此啊你為什麼不讓我們車間會的秘書或車間會的一個委員專業的委員他們是很厲害的我們車間會的委員都很厲害特別是秘書啊幹了二三十年那些秘書那個三分鐘就瞄出來這事情的"},{"start":16378.199,"end":16403.41,"text":"對錯了嘛法院的適用還有案件的事實都已經顯清楚了這時候如果他們介入協助就能夠讓裁決所裁決更清楚或是讓當事人來一趟就在裁決所把他幹掉了不小心又送到法院去聲明一到法院去了這個需要法官來審理嗎對強制調解再一樣在法院就讓我們的這些"},{"start":16406.021,"end":16432.823,"text":"有鑑定專家：或是有鑑定背景的律師們：或是鑑定委員會的秘書：來當調解員：把這事情加以調解處理這是行政條組：例如說我舉這個交通案件加報案件也是一樣加報案件特別是警察局受理的案件身份警情保護令的案件這個時候呢：就應該要有社工：或是類似社工的其他人員的行政資源來介入來處理這個事情"},{"start":16436.345,"end":16463.522,"text":"而不是說等著等著等著,我們等著讓法院來傳訊或讓檢察官來傳訊傷害罪或是讓家事法院來傳訊家庭保護令的事情應該這個時候就應該要有人來介入來協助處理了那鄰居金婚也是這樣情形鄰居金婚我們會有大廈管理委員會的總幹事社區的村里長在區公所聘請調解委員督同我們的幹事來介入做行政調處"},{"start":16465.117,"end":16473.127,"text":"你去糾紛 太瑣碎了 聲音的問題啦這東西 打官司會跟你講 法官也不會笑啦對不對 你這時候還要送鑑定嘛"},{"start":16474.873,"end":16502.469,"text":"對,一樣嘛,你進入法院訴訟裡面,我們跟當事人分析為什麼我們的,其實我看,依我經驗啊,非常多的案件都可以調解的為什麼?因為你跟當事人分析嘛,你進入法院,法院還是要請醫師鑑定啊法院還是要請這個車禍專家鑑定啊法院還是要請這個建築圖目專家鑑定啊法院還是要請這個顧家事來幫你鑑定,通通都是要鑑定的專家鑑定法官懂嗎?法官不會啊,第四屆測量更需要"},{"start":16503.129,"end":16531.136,"text":"地政專家來鑑定吧不如讓這些專家退休的或半退休的人在前端就幫我們解決問題了啊就這樣的思考很簡單接下來我談到這個包括師生衝突也是這樣子我們有校會啊校會這些委員們可以讓來介入在我們學校主任還有家長、輔導室來共同協調嘛在校園師生的衝突學生的衝突就把它處理好了嘛"},{"start":16532.594,"end":16549.868,"text":"接下來就是我剛才談到偵查中這個其實齁我剛聽過這樣子各位專家委員的報告之後我認為偵查中的東西就好像類似我們復檢座一樣就是類似一個治安法官的概念就是把一年以下現在把它改成五年以下徒刑案件呢你如果在治安法官的手裡面就把它處理掉了"},{"start":16554.106,"end":16578.774,"text":"這邊的類型我一樣提出來把它分類校園治安的傷害致死案件然後合意性侵未成年案件毒品的持有吸食案件當然這可以考慮除罪化的問題公然無罪也是可以有這個考慮交通致死重傷案件還有這個妨害民意案件剛剛有人提到妨害民意案件這種東西不要讓法官檢來官去處理這種微小事情"},{"start":16579.514,"end":16598.994,"text":"就讓在偵查中的時候就讓檢察官就直接委託我們的檢察事務官配合我們的這個心理諮商師配合我們的關護人配合我們的律師配合我們的法醫師來做先前的處理了所以這個地方就是說你在偵查中"},{"start":16600.646,"end":16618.413,"text":"就讓警察官可以指揮這些﹐配合這些人力﹐配合他的助理人員﹐來把這些事情在偵查中裡面﹐就做調解﹐和解﹐只要和解成立﹐就撤告了捏﹐就還起訴啦﹐或是犯罪協商﹐就把他處理掉啦﹐就不需要起訴進入法院啦﹐"},{"start":16619.683,"end":16636.997,"text":"所以我這邊提到是說盡量不要讓這個案件來用這個檢疫判決來申請處刑而直接用緩起訴罰處理掉接下來就是我們看到偵查的開端就是偵查一開端的時候就有專人在處理專人在審理就是專案在做案件審查"},{"start":16638.198,"end":16662.564,"text":"審查之後就交給專股的審判來處理這個專股處理就可以類似聲射治安法官的概念來處理這個事情那麼在濫訴的部分我們分成民事糾葛就不用再簽解了啦民事糾葛發個函給他說你是民事糾葛啦你去找律師諮詢之後你找專業諮詢然後另外再處理用這種方式就把案子結掉啦"},{"start":16664.933,"end":16693.835,"text":"其他用自私的方式來做牽結然後可以警告說不要再告再告我就要用這個誣告罪來把你救辦等等的那自拔案件的檢驗案件剛剛提到說92條修法一樣把一年下改成五年下徒刑的東西就可以讓案子簡化好讓簡化然後明確的這個檢驗案件已經事實證據明確的話就交專股直接用犯罪協商或協調後把案子直接用道歉啊和解賠償啊就處理掉了他就不用"},{"start":16695.34,"end":16697.682,"text":"目前被詐欺案件,這三次人被詐欺案件,升了40幾%"},{"start":16721.773,"end":16724.035,"text":"司法及法制委員會公聽會議"},{"start":16741.176,"end":16760.013,"text":"但是車手呢 一個車手呢 他不可能只 他被抓到的時候 他不可能只犯一個案件嘛他犯了很多案件 而且這個車手呢 當他被收押之前 他搞不好已經是第一次是無保釋放 第二次是交保了 第三次才被押起來所以這時候就有3、4個檢察機關在審理這個車手案件結果呢 每一個機關都各自起訴"},{"start":16764.94,"end":16783.552,"text":"哇!那當然製造了四五個案件嘛我現在碰到兩三件都是這樣子一個車手就五六個檢查...地政...檢查事務所就...就是...地檢署就起訴了那...那開玩笑嘛那你不是製造法官案件嗎為什麼同一個車手你不把它...你是檢察官系統啊你很容易啊跟警察配合去把它查這個..."},{"start":16785.148,"end":16785.568,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會議"},{"start":16802.782,"end":16813.976,"text":"所以這個地方就是說,你應該在偵查開端,如果警察局報告或告訴把這個車手送過來的話,你就給他退回,你要續行去追查上游還有像連續的犯刑,包括犯賭也是一樣"},{"start":16818.634,"end":16844.679,"text":"這樣子就讓我們偵查檢查機關在這個控制這個案件的偵查為什麼?那個時效很久啦對不對?一個犯罪可以偵查多久?是不是?偵查的時效可以很久啦就犯罪偵查時效很久當然辦案有期限嘛但是問題是像現在的案件就可以沿你放寬他的辦案期限嘛是不是?好 所以以上就是說我是希望是說我們的訴訟在前端我們可以利用我們的行政資源利用我們現在各種紛爭裡面都有專業人員"},{"start":16846.693,"end":16868.758,"text":"專人存在這個社會、存在警察局、存在我們這個社工系統、存在我們心理法醫師系統這些人,專見會的委員,這些人你要在前段利用他們去幫我們解決問題所以我跟公聽會發言人說,這個策略,增加人力、增加當事人的失控成本"},{"start":16869.926,"end":16870.887,"text":"章瑞雄議員章瑞雄議員"},{"start":16898.314,"end":16917.121,"text":"大家好我今天其實坐在底下聽然後剛再回到辦公室我也聆聽各位的一個高見其實從1999年首次的全國司法改革會議就已經提出減輕司法人員的一個負擔直到到了2017年這個司改國是會議裡面這個"},{"start":16923.283,"end":16951.709,"text":"甚至今天這場公聽會我們都還在討論還在討論所以我就特別有感而發那今天我看有幾位學者專家也特別去提到或者本院的委員也去提到說在檢察官人力不足的部分或者法官人力不足的部分也秀出了一些資料像比如說檢察官的這個案量多增加了48%那我就怪啦增加了48%那反而我們院方這邊的案件增加那個比例還不到10%"},{"start":16953.708,"end":16967.922,"text":"那其中的30幾%都跑到哪裡去了那也不可能說案子無中生有或者說有中變成無那這個案子就很顯然這個是不是統計數字上也必須要再更精確那"},{"start":16970.728,"end":16998.208,"text":"到底什麼樣的一個訴訟制度啊才是大家想要追求的我雖然從這個1995、96年開始那到97、98然後到最後我就變成司法界我們的法律界都變逃兵到了政治界來可是呢其實我幾乎每個禮拜啊我自己在看這個法律服務的時候啊我常常會看到一些書類啊我不管是檢察官的起訴書或者法案製作的一個判決書啊"},{"start":16999.289,"end":17001.11,"text":"這個我就有點感慨啦一般其實都是很平時的比較輕微的個案件其實書類你都叫他怎麼再簡化證據清單寫的已經夠簡化了然後整個起訴書裡面你說他的起訴狀裡面他寫的文字也並不是很多你說會太 要再怎麼樣簡化"},{"start":17024.204,"end":17026.37,"text":"那當然這個部分可以再來再做一個討論但很顯然問題不在這個地方"},{"start":17031.581,"end":17034.063,"text":"一般民眾來講的話我們一直在講說要疏減這個送援可是送援呢我們今天談的其實幾個不管是從簡化偵查或者審判或者這個程序的一個簡化還有書類的一個製作跟人力的增補這個其實都在講四個字訴訟經濟但你這個訴訟經濟要有一個前提"},{"start":17057.519,"end":17084.135,"text":"你要達到訴訟的一個經濟就是說不要投入那麼多人力、那麼多財力、那麼多物力進去但是要有一個公平審判的一個前提在公平審判的一個前提在所以以這些人力上的一個增補立法院只要你們說得出道理立法院其實都會給你們支持但重點是會到最後是人民的期待"},{"start":17085.781,"end":17100.132,"text":"你今天要五千多個你今天要增加一萬個我們整個司法的信賴度我們這個法院對民眾讓民眾的信賴可以做一個提升的話立法院一萬個都敢給你啊但是你要把那個配置需求它的必要性要講得清楚啊這個部分要講得清楚啊所以我一直會認為啊"},{"start":17110.245,"end":17136.38,"text":"法院其實我們今天這樣子公聽裡面我們聽到了法官聽到了檢察官這些心聲我們真的是聽到了可是呢這個只是精英的心聲啊精英的心聲啊民眾的想法未必會跟我們今天列席的所有的專家的看法是一致民眾的想法會認為說這個法院的存在不是為了檢察官跟法官的存在"},{"start":17136.9,"end":17147.062,"text":"是基於為人民而存在那當然我們給法官、檢察官必要的武器不能讓他們變成是過勞一樣 這也不對那這個訴訟制度怎麼來設計跟各位報告不是立法院的權責立法院設計不出來的今天來看看參與的才幾位"},{"start":17163.206,"end":17172.197,"text":"你不真的以為立法院是這麼專業啊哪怕吳宗憲幹過檢察官我幹過那麼久的律師我們進到政治來我們變得不專業啦我們口水變多啦"},{"start":17173.208,"end":17179.954,"text":"但是呢 那個初衷啊各位 協助讓這個司法怎麼樣更讓人民來信賴這個就變成 又變成我們的責任啊我們也有義務啊可是我們會表達支持啊可是我也必須要提出來我從過去啊 在學校裡面念書啊老師哪一個人不是教我們要怎麼樣建立一個富有人性而溫暖的訴訟制度那講到現在呢"},{"start":17199.534,"end":17219.638,"text":"民眾還是沒有辦法來接受我們現在整個法院實務所做出來的這判決合不合理我認為民眾的想法也很合理訴訟就會有對照吳宗憲假設你今天審一個案子我跟幾位學者專家我們互相併為對照你贏了我會覺得吳宗憲亂判"},{"start":17224.963,"end":17233.805,"text":"你搞不好你覺得雖然你贏了你覺得吳宗憲也是亂判的啊你要求一百萬那判你八十萬而已啊這個案子判下來吳宗憲你也不滿意啊我說你們兩個胡說八道根本依照判決下來全部大家都不滿意啊這個台灣社會目前是這樣子啊所以我們只能盡量去尋求共識啊訴訟制度沒有完美的啦哪有完美的"},{"start":17247.15,"end":17269.62,"text":"你說日本人口比我們多那麼多以檢察官的配置來看的話我們的檢察官的人數不比人家少啊可是我們的做出來的我們檢察官我絕對認為百分之九十幾的檢察官都是非常優秀的可是常常你有一個案件到最後媒體把你去做一個渲染以後我也常常看到一些很不入流的啊"},{"start":17271.533,"end":17281.023,"text":"我們平常心得講是這樣子啊那何況老百姓透過媒體這樣的一個披露以後會覺得說你們檢察官法官在幹什麼會啊 也會這樣子啊所以本席倒會認為說訴訟經濟"},{"start":17284.656,"end":17302.904,"text":"有必要 書類的精簡 人力的一個做一個補充否則那個正義很難貴欸 正義真的很難貴啊檢察官也累 法官也累 民眾到最後都累 大家全部都輸那輸掉的是一個大家民眾對司法的一個信賴啊所以民間裡面大家 我們很清楚"},{"start":17303.604,"end":17319.935,"text":"我們很清楚就是說檢察官累 法官累你說法案都塞車 不是法案塞車所以大部分都是案件塞車啊塞到最後大家認為說如果真正我們在開車的話塞車大家想的就是大眾捷運系統 公共運輸可是法案在法院裡面塞車怎麼辦就只有增加人力這一圖嗎"},{"start":17324.912,"end":17339.943,"text":"要再想一想 增加人力是最簡單的立法院絕對可以支持 但是我們也會去做比較 別的國家到底是怎麼樣就比較得出來的嘛 所以立法院可以支持這個部分 對於給我們"},{"start":17340.803,"end":17355.457,"text":"檢察官給法官有更好的一個武器不要讓他們這樣子的一個過勞或者說去減輕他們的工作量這個都必須要司法院或者法務部都有責任這樣去做立法院也會來做一個支持但我也必須要提出來就是說人民期待到最後他要得到他的正義他覺得他權力受損"},{"start":17364.292,"end":17369.955,"text":"他當然到最後 我也不懂啊我只能找法院啊 不然我去找誰我去找政黨嗎 我去找行政部門嗎就是全部都沒辦法幫助他了 他求助無門了他認為說 還有一個法院在他走到法院去啦法院這邊跟他講說 你來喔 我好累喔我們又不能這樣去講所以整個訴訟制度的存在我倒覺得必須要記住一點還是為人民而存在"},{"start":17392.637,"end":17400.023,"text":"不然要這個法院幹什麼我們要這個司法來幹什麼所以我本席今天就聽了這麼多以後語重心長的原因就是說因為聽太久了司法國事會議也開了哪一黨執政都一樣啊"},{"start":17408.951,"end":17416.396,"text":"不要說到立法院來討論啦任何一場在關於法律的尤其是不管是民事訴訟或者刑事訴訟的一個研討會裡面我看到連法律學者大家彼此的攻防有時候都真的臉紅脖子粗甚至難聽的話都講出來了何況是史務界裡面又有這麼多不同的一個意見那本席今天特別來要表達"},{"start":17432.948,"end":17460.446,"text":"對今天這個整個公聽會的一個支持對我們整個司法界的一個支持人力的部分我們絕對沒有問題但是整個訴訟制度的一個設計要達到共識太困難了必須要很清楚我只看你們民宿訴訟只看你們小兒訴訟然後程序選擇權講了一大堆你看這個走了幾十年前陣子大家在講說是不是這個整個要台灣要比較走向當事人進行主義"},{"start":17461.872,"end":17466.333,"text":"只要我們老舊這樣一直實踐下去到現在大家也不滿意啊大家也不滿意啊律師界也太多人要認為說制度的變革那是不夠大的可是我們這邊光以目前現行的實務制度我們就有這麼多沒辦法解決的地方所以今天來聆聽各位的高見也表達我自己一點的一個心聲絕對支持但是問題是我還是要確認就是說到最後不管立法院怎麼支持"},{"start":17488.918,"end":17516.205,"text":"這個整套制度真的還是要是歸於要整個司法還是最後人民的一個信賴大家一起來努力啦 謝謝好 謝謝莊委員今天所有學者專家跟發言登記的委員都已經發言完畢那我們接著進行機關代表以及列席者發言那第一我們先邀請那個"},{"start":17517.788,"end":17519.109,"text":"民間司改會臨場務董事發言各位發言時間為5分鐘"},{"start":17544.83,"end":17548.17,"text":"主席、各位學者人家跟機關代表"},{"start":17549.636,"end":17574.883,"text":"我們被列在列席的地方下頁我們民間司改會我這個可以按嗎民間司改會從2020年就成立一個小組我當時是董事長我親自召集那個名稱叫做檢診司法符合提升司法品質那這個小組進行了4年那我們在2年的時候已經提出7個草案或方案也拜會了司法院的秘書當時的林秘書長跟華國部長"},{"start":17577.557,"end":17585.382,"text":"官方多說謝謝但是都沒有採取行動我們提的也許是拋磚引玉我們後來又陸續討論大概有11項下一頁"},{"start":17591.01,"end":17607.351,"text":"但是我們有一些基本想法 剛才大家聽了很久 所以我想盡量速度加快那我們對於司法院曾經提出沒有配到的限制人民上訴權 這樣可能會減輕呼和但是我們這個小組的名稱是 為了提升裁判評估 司法是為人民"},{"start":17608.052,"end":17632.778,"text":"那當然你過老的法官檢管官是沒有辦法有好的品質沒有問題但是沒有配到的限制人民的上訴權這樣的一個處理我們反對我們對於鬆綁司法管考不合理要改但是完全要鬆綁然後取消辦案限制這個對有一些人民有些法官很自治但有些法官不是這樣我們也反對好 下一個那 下一位"},{"start":17633.223,"end":17659.237,"text":"那我想人力剛才大家講很多我不贅述我要講的就是說應該要先檢討的是不是有沒有效率的人流程跟規定而且案件的來源好 下一個那麼有些剛才大家討論的過程當中其實有些是沒有效率的人那有些法官檢察官不是故意沒有效率他可能沒有被教育可能他再教育如果再不能改善可能要淘汰那流程的部分要檢討訴訟的制度要檢討"},{"start":17662.529,"end":17687.496,"text":"司法本身有沒有牢獄不均這也都要檢討講人力之前要先處理這個問題那麼剛才在講人口日本是我們的5倍但案件進入法院跟我們差不多相同那這裡面牽涉到很多的制度問題不是只講檢案人數而已案件量那這個部分其實是值得思考第二點我特別講一下就是大家像剛才莊嘉賓立委也有講到詐騙"},{"start":17688.916,"end":17688.936,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":17709.656,"end":17733.513,"text":"那濫訴 我知道司法院有提出民訴書法修改但效果好嗎 值得考慮 可以討論的那裡面我們提出一個濫訴 譬如說是增加在一定的條件下 我這細節我都沒有辦法講在一定的條件下 是不是他一定要去請律師我想這用律師會來處理好 那麼再下一頁"},{"start":17734.4,"end":17763.095,"text":"那麼另外就是說我們也 剛才也有學者專家提到就是說其實司法院跟法務部都要聘請真的要好好的委請有研究管理的專業的人去做實證研究到底哪一個部分每一個部分不一樣 地檢署跟高檢署也許不一樣每個家事法庭跟商業法庭坑也不一樣那問題出在哪裡 他們負荷過重 過重到是什麼原因等等要做實證的研究才能夠有對策下一頁 那"},{"start":17764.15,"end":17779.645,"text":"我在這裡因為時間的關係我本來以為有10分鐘好沒關係我就不講細節我11個部分分成3部分我們講的都沒有那麼百分之百全面但是都有去想過比如說我們緩起訴我們都有條文喔我條文都給立法院了我都有條文我們民間市改委是有條文的"},{"start":17781.747,"end":17803.802,"text":"那當然這條文可以再討論 譬如說緩起訴 因為我們在討論的過程都不是只是律師學者 還有很多一線的法官檢察官 或者法官檢察官退下來的那他提供很多意見 譬如說緩起訴為什麼檢察官不想用 因為測下緩起訴很麻煩 要有什麼誘因沒 我們有提出一些相關的條文 包括辦法"},{"start":17804.642,"end":17828.518,"text":"任罪協商也一樣有很多的不方便或者是說有很多的範圍太小等等那有關濫訴我剛剛講說是不是可以放寬到可以他如果一定被被定程序被認定濫訴的話他要訴訟是要委請律師好下一頁"},{"start":17831.428,"end":17857.862,"text":"幫我下一頁,謝謝那簡化程序,那剛才有檢察官提到,領導檢察官提到說這個檢警不宜解送這個規定,我們都有條文了我們條文寫得更詳細,大家可以參考那剛才有法官提到說這個提示證、證物,不用這樣一個一個提示那這個部分我們也有想過,有辯護律師的案件,刑事辯護律師的案件律師跟當事人同意的話,是可以簡化的,我們有一些簡化條文"},{"start":17858.422,"end":17871.843,"text":"那第三次最簡單的啦,形式有委外轉譯可是民事沒有欸民事很多的政人其實很複雜但是好可憐喔,那法官、書記官就一直在那邊打大家都在等著那個書記官打字,下一頁那"},{"start":17873.589,"end":17874.99,"text":"第5有關違罪案件可不可以不經偵查就不起訴?"},{"start":17895.115,"end":17918.561,"text":"裁判書類的部分 形式的檢視或檢疫可不可以以宣示判決筆錄待之這個是大家很清楚第二個是法官助理 剛才有人提到 法官助理我們都挑文化了就是法官助理 法官要把他得新證的理由告訴那個助理 助理要記下來然後草擬 草擬之後法官要修改 修改也要訂稿 這些都要留下記錄"},{"start":17920.521,"end":17934.977,"text":"我想這個還是有幫助但是最後一點就是民刑事的裁判大家都有講我們也把它調文化了就是說你今天如果因為不上訴的比例很高所以如果今天法官先宣判我沒有給判決書"},{"start":17935.902,"end":17959.595,"text":"那如果他說我要上訴,好,那我給你判決書我另外給你判決書以後起算,比如說20天那如果他不上訴,就到此為止就很簡要的部分這是我們詳細的11項的東西除了那個難訴還沒有調文化調文化了,但是我們沒有提出來,因為我們還在修改那我們都提到立法院去了那希望大家參考我最後要講的是說"},{"start":17961.24,"end":17989.879,"text":"我們四年來每個月開一次會我們沒有停職我們拜會司法院、拜會法務部坦白講我有點挫折因為我如果今天是監督的立場你們不喜歡我監督我都理解但是我今天是要幫助減輕負荷當時我們有這麼多新聞在報導這件事情我們就已經努力在做但是我沒看到法務部、司法院真的採取行動太過少或者太過慢那我覺得這個部分要不只是我們這11項只是一小部分而已可以想得更多但是要"},{"start":17990.78,"end":18006.058,"text":"就要注意聯名的權益要平衡不是說我很簡單嘛我就給你限制啊我就給你齁那你說算數就算數也有一些程序也要平衡齁那我們的意見不見得都成熟但是我們有經過很詳細的討論給大院做參考也各給司法機關參考謝謝"},{"start":18009.299,"end":18028.156,"text":"好 謝謝那因為民間司改會他其實有提一些修法的草案那我剛剛這段時間我們也稍微研究了一下那真的都蠻精闢的那再麻煩法務部跟司法院也能列入參考並回應好接下來我們請司法院的吳秘書長發言"},{"start":18050.322,"end":18076.115,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位專家寫者、各位先進今天我們司法院、我們各廳、諸信處、人事處也都一起來聆聽各位先進提出來的寶貴意見"},{"start":18078.922,"end":18086.084,"text":"包括民間司改會所提出來的寶貴意見我們都會通盤會長來檢討如何來面對很感謝有這樣的機會讓大家能夠共濟一堂"},{"start":18101.681,"end":18117.405,"text":"對我們現在司法的面臨的困境那大家能夠及時廣義那個人也在司法界這樣也服務滿40年剛剛那個"},{"start":18120.646,"end":18132.457,"text":"明天是改會那個蔡常務執行委員他說他提到他的父親也是我最高法院的那個同事他23期我20期"},{"start":18135.492,"end":18147.198,"text":"那在這個整個這個服務生涯當中齁40年服務生涯當中啊那個人就是寫那個全股的那個判決書寫了27年半啦27年半"},{"start":18151.44,"end":18174.369,"text":"所以在那個過程裡面我深深體會裁判師的簡化 確實是一個很重要的來克服人力的一個很重要的問題所以去年6月份個人接這個秘書長職務之後就接了之後就有任何場合一定是強調裁判師簡化"},{"start":18178.649,"end":18200.468,"text":"而且這個裁判師簡化必須要由官方來推動因為從人性面,個別法官他假如沒有官方來推動的話那很容易會被誤為他是偷懶所以我們現在司法院把這個裁判師簡化就列為我們的重要施政綱要"},{"start":18202.284,"end":18225.01,"text":"那像剛剛先進所提到這個如何發揮效能、效力在一些訴訟程序上如何來精簡這個應該都是相當重要的啦相當重要那這個除了我們要這個發揮效能、效力、裁判所簡化從這個積極面來強力來落實之外"},{"start":18230.919,"end":18231.5,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":18245.811,"end":18245.911,"text":"公聽會委員：完整會議"},{"start":18275.521,"end":18276.781,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":18304.42,"end":18307.922,"text":"剛剛蘇清檢委員有到場提到訴訟案件的部分"},{"start":18321.031,"end":18339.178,"text":"在個案方面 因為還在上訴中 尚未確定既以審判獨立 司法行政是不宜介入至於在通案的規範如何完備"},{"start":18343.371,"end":18366.57,"text":"來提供各方遵循．這一部分 司法院我們也會來加以研議因為時間有限 我報告到這邊 謝謝謝謝秘書長國務秘書長秘書長 我的建議還是那樣啦秘書長的重點還是在人力補充啦但我跟秘書長報告"},{"start":18368.035,"end":18386.165,"text":"人力補充是一件重要的事,但是制度真的才是核心問題不然人種補再多,第一個跟人種要人已經非常極度困難,民進黨應該知道那我也跟人種的任市長講過很多次了,但是總緣合就是那樣"},{"start":18388.229,"end":18403.374,"text":"補人沒有那麼容易的情況下我還是覺得制度啦不然這種制度玩下去你再補多一倍的法官也好不到哪裡去好謝謝秘書長那接下來我們請那個蔡次長發言"},{"start":18419.434,"end":18444.504,"text":"非常感謝,我們何其有幸,主席是我們擔任多年的檢察官甚至這個檢察官他的一個處境,一個其實法官的負荷如果如剛剛所有的前輩這樣的講,扛著自己走"},{"start":18446.321,"end":18472.532,"text":"講得心裡面非常的心酸其實檢察官的工作附和甚至有過之而無不及今天我在這裡有書面我就不贅述我要把握在這裡的時間那麼利用我也是跟我們主席一樣我也是擔任過檢察官 基層檢察官我也是擔任過20年的律師再來法務部7年半"},{"start":18474.466,"end":18501.033,"text":"其實我對於各個角色的扮演我有這個資格在這裡跟大家分享人民希望有事情就找法院所以我們的法院也希望讓人民盡用錢能夠花費但是我們要想到法院也有莊嚴的一面刑罰是最後的一個手段"},{"start":18503.857,"end":18526.719,"text":"大家有的希望案件少 有的希望案件多今天在場的專家 有法官退下去當律師的 因為沒有辦法再做下去 人類死掉還有檢察官當不下去的 或者是說覺得律師更好賺 也下去轉 律師也都有"},{"start":18527.915,"end":18554.665,"text":"那麼我個人也做了檢察官也轉到去當律師再到法務部來其實我跟各位分享從不同的角度來看檢察官起訴那麼法官希望他盡量的減少那麼判無罪法官也希望說檢察官不要再濫刑上訴這個個人都非常的認同所以每一個人都要負責任"},{"start":18556.452,"end":18579.203,"text":"律師都希望案件多多益善因為大家在業務上才有事情可以做所以從每個人的角度來看對於司法的改革案件的附和看法都是不一而足我個人認為要疏減訟言第一個在行政院"},{"start":18580.163,"end":18580.303,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18601.463,"end":18619.315,"text":"要每一個角色的人都要負責任檢察官不能濫刑上訴那麼法官對於該重判的就不能輕重這個不是法定性的問題啊你檢察官好不容易起訴一個重刑犯法官輕重這個整個都破壞掉了"},{"start":18620.715,"end":18640.22,"text":"人民不能濫訴就是要靠律師的倫理規範很多律師鼓勵老百姓不懂法律要從刑事去告對於沒有到法院的人才可以把握到法院還甚至要用刑責來逼迫被告來就範"},{"start":18643.444,"end":18662.296,"text":"所以律師倫理規範非常的重要律師如果盡責守份對於不該走入刑庭的就要讓他用調節或者是民事來處理所以我今天在這裡要跟這個主席還有各位專家、學者法務部的檢察官現在陷入一個非常嚴重的困境"},{"start":18669.335,"end":18685.902,"text":"我不瞞各位說我曾經啊那在報紙媒體我發表我們檢察官啊不斷的流失那麼其中有一個管道就是轉任法官以前我擔任檢察官的時候啊檢察官跟法官的護調是平衡的"},{"start":18687.277,"end":18700.095,"text":"現在是沒有人 幾乎沒有人法官要轉任檢察官所以我們很優秀的檢察官除了去當律師以外 很多都跑到法院去所以檢察官跟法官的互動 這個要檢討"},{"start":18702.711,"end":18726.068,"text":"我們很多優秀的檢察官除了工作互惠以外覺得心理不平衡因為優秀的檢察官跑下去當律師賺大錢之後再誘引這些優秀的學長學弟再跟著他出去當律師賺錢我當過律師我也賺過錢但是我最喜歡的工作還是檢察官"},{"start":18727.173,"end":18754.946,"text":"雖然很多事情不是用金錢衡量的但是我們必須要讓這個檢察官在任的時候他要心甘情願我們要給法官的一個待遇跟檢察官的這個待遇不能有落差因為他們都是司法官所以我們律師可以賺錢但是我覺得律師對於我們整個這個司法的案件的負荷要負一點責任"},{"start":18756.28,"end":18759.931,"text":"我也希望在此的司法官又有擔當"},{"start":18761.601,"end":18786.186,"text":"你認為案件為什麼一直復徵因為很多案件你一直算爛數但爛數很多很明顯的都是誤告為什麼你不簽分所以檢察官你在抱怨案件暴增的同時就把那些該簽分誤告的我敢跟你保證只要簽分一件誤告他案件很快的就會很多他就會一傳死四傳白"},{"start":18787.046,"end":18813.003,"text":"所以很多在執行案件偵查或審判告過程當中發現偽證的 發現誤告的你就給他簽分來辦這個比你叫他說你多付一點錢他就會知所進退這個要好 效果要更棒所以今天時間上的關係我也不會浪費大家的時間但是我個人除了今天這些專家先前講的要我從各個角度來看"},{"start":18814.424,"end":18841.355,"text":"如果我們這些現象不改案件絕對會一直增加你再增加人的速度絕對比不上案件的一個擴張所以我希望未來在行政院各部會屬於衛福的衛福要做好他有該精神經脹的部分他要做好不能所有的事情發生事情就是要找檢察官那這樣的事情檢察官"},{"start":18843.223,"end":18864.733,"text":"合理的工作負擔之後他自然有心好好辦案那麼到法院的案件他也會再去審酌真正自己沒有經過很審慎、審慎調查過經過法院推翻掉的案件不要胡亂上訴大家把各自的角色扮演好我相信這個絕對有助於這個案件的一個減少謝謝"},{"start":18868.288,"end":18868.969,"text":"行政總署副市長發言"},{"start":18890.237,"end":18912.768,"text":"主席、各位協會專家、各機關代表、大家午安請就我們人事總署的執掌事項來跟各位做個簡單的說明那其他部分請大家想看我們所提的書面資料第一個我想依照憲法正規條文的規定因為司法院的概算是獨立的所以事實上行政院對於過去司法院的員額增加的部分我們都向來都是予以非常尊重"},{"start":18913.608,"end":18930.855,"text":"在總原法修正之前跟總原法實施之後假如你看統計資料的話司法院的員額事實上是快速成長的那個在相對同時期行政院的相關中央的機關事實上是在精簡的而且說精簡率是相當高的這一部分我先說明一下"},{"start":18931.815,"end":18956.925,"text":"那麼司法院目前大概距離總議會高線大概還有400多人可我們也看到大概整個司法院的空缺預算大概將近在500多人那那個法務部的部分事實上也是差不多有這種情形對不起司法院是大概空缺大概在1200多人法務部的部分大概500多人不好意思剛剛講那個有點錯誤"},{"start":18958.286,"end":18981.801,"text":"那麼在整個這樣的一個情況之下我們總訴事實上對於增援的這個部分因為過去長期以來事實上我個人也參加過司法院的員和評鑑今天事實上也有學者也有提到的一些源頭減量的方法在我們過去事實上我們在相關的會議上我們都有提過但誠如林永頌律師剛剛講的那個大家就聽聽就結束了"},{"start":18983.902,"end":19006.209,"text":"所以事實上到最後為什麼我們人事總署也都不太想再派員參與的原因就是說因為在早期我們提這些意見的時候都會被司法院認為說這涉及到所謂的審判核心業務那我們也很開心也看到目前這件事情讓大家覺得說不是只有增加員員應該是整體的我們人事協議總署事實上並不是說一直摳住這個員員不換"},{"start":19008.31,"end":19027.356,"text":"重點是說我們希望一個解決問題的方法是一個全盤式的解決尤其是剛剛很多學者、專家包括我們蔡政務次長就提到源頭如果不適當的去減量的話事實上你只要看過去我們檢查體系人員、司法體系人員都是呈現成長的情況下但是為什麼這個問題會一直發生這個我們認為可能跟今天"},{"start":19032.037,"end":19055.873,"text":"的學術專家跟各機關代表所跟第一線的法官、檢察官所提的意見這個部分可能要省政來思考要不要源頭部分要適當的去做處理否則我想我們再增加更多的人都沒辦法解決這樣的問題那以司法院在上次會議所提到的要增加五千多人這部分我們不談其他的硬題"},{"start":19056.813,"end":19057.013,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19086.51,"end":19086.63,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19103.925,"end":19105.367,"text":"最後我們也希望說未來有幾個方向來做處理"},{"start":19120.442,"end":19120.462,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":19143.707,"end":19144.148,"text":"施法院"},{"start":19172.09,"end":19172.11,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":19195.675,"end":19195.855,"text":"主席"},{"start":19204.751,"end":19227.314,"text":"好 謝謝那今天公聽會的發言就到這邊告一個段落那感謝所有與會者從不同的面向提供很多意見那今天所有的發言內容跟書面意見還有委員審發會所提的書面資料都會列入記錄刊登公報並且"},{"start":19228.875,"end":19246.516,"text":"製作公聽會的報告 送交本會全體委員跟出席人員參考這次呼籲司法院跟法務部 千萬要把今天各位專家學者的建議 要能夠審慎的評估"},{"start":19248.678,"end":19271.107,"text":"那將來我們也會從各個面向去處理那我自己也很清楚最近案件量增加最大如果以刑事案件來說就是詐欺那詐欺後面當然還會衍生很多損害賠償的請求所以一樣的也會影響到民事事件的增長那詐欺案件的處理其實司法應該是最末端啦"},{"start":19272.087,"end":19295.219,"text":"前端的行政機關我們也是積極在跟各個其他行政機關去討論說怎麼樣能夠降低這些詐騙集團他所能夠使用的工具然後來降低詐騙的案件我想解決問題前端沒有處理好司法這個末端一定會崩潰所以我們接下來處理我們會是有策略的從行政院"},{"start":19296.28,"end":19296.5,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"15875","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15875","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2de1784ed6585ee25e9e2506b9d78cd73c3be8d109af184be426266d6a9d9866625ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「外交部如何構建友善工作環境暨人員心理輔導具體做法」，並備質詢。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-02","start_time":"2024-05-02T08:30:31+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-17"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:00:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":8969,"委員發言時間":"08:30:31 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孫簡元 孫司長國際合作及經濟事務司 連玉平 連司長國際傳播司 徐永梅 徐司長研究設計會 張雅光 張主任禮賓處 李志強 李處長秘書處 洪振榮 洪處長人事處 黃麗玲 黃處長"},{"start":2240.1,"end":2260.273,"text":"政風處 周志信 周處長主計處 李佩華 李處長資訊及電務處 羅倩薇 羅副處長公眾外交協調會 劉永健 劉執行長非政府組織國際事務會 陳剛毅執行長領事事務局 何振環 何局長"},{"start":2267.506,"end":2271.229,"text":"外交及國際事務學院李新銀李副院長台灣日本關係協會范振國秘書長台灣美國事務委員會薛美瑜秘書長財團法人國際合作發展基金會李朝成李秘書長財團法人台灣民主基金會代理執行長廖達祺廖執行長"},{"start":2300.97,"end":2309.285,"text":"本日會議邀請外交部吳釗燮部長報告外交部如何構建友善工作環境暨人員心理輔導具體做法．並備質詢我們現在請吳部長上台報告"},{"start":2322.509,"end":2341.607,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生、各位媒體朋友大家早今天非常榮幸能夠前來大院就外交部如何建構友善工作環境暨人員心理輔導具體做法進行專題報告書面報告請大家參閱以下就重點做口頭的說明"},{"start":2342.808,"end":2368.684,"text":"我國的外交處境極為特殊尤其是在當前國際局勢之下外交部同仁犹如在無煙消戰場上的戰士每天面對各種嚴峻的挑戰無不以捍衛國家利益維護國人權益為使命工作的壓力非常的大因此從我上任以來就非常的重視我們同仁的身心健康致力將外交部打造成一個友善"},{"start":2369.124,"end":2371.045,"text":"讓同仁維護自身健康並且兼顧家庭的需要"},{"start":2397.595,"end":2410.512,"text":"另外運用植物災設計等各項職場支持的資源改善身心障礙同仁的工作條件以及辦公的環境申請手語翻譯服務協助聽障同仁參與本部的會議和活動"},{"start":2412.759,"end":2441.188,"text":"另外,我們外交部裡面也設置了醫務室和哺乳室等安全衛生設施方便需要的同仁來使用。另外,為了堅持禁絕職場性騷擾的這個立場本人以及本部各單位的主管都已經簽署了性騷擾零容忍承諾書加強對同仁宣導性騷擾防治並且訂定駐外機構處理性騷擾案件的作業規範要求駐外管長負起防治的責任"},{"start":2442.528,"end":2461.737,"text":"外交部也整合部內外的資源提供性騷擾案件的當事人心理和法律等各方面的諮詢服務並且配合性平三法的修正盤點內部法規推動性平職能的測驗以建立專業可信賴的性騷擾防治制度"},{"start":2462.757,"end":2490.966,"text":"其次在生活友善方面我們外交部成功爭取住外人員輪調返國原券的防疫旅館費以及隨同住外未成年子女的房租加成補助費並且提高搬遷補助費減輕輪調同仁安家的經濟負擔另外也積極鼓勵主管以及同仁善用健檢補助的措施每年請醫療院所到我們外交部提供健檢服務並且透過運動社團"},{"start":2492.928,"end":2496.683,"text":"提高補助的這個方式來鼓勵同仁從事正當的休閒活動"},{"start":2498.604,"end":2523.06,"text":"此外為了使住外的同仁調返國內之後能夠迅速安頓投入工作不為居住的問題來煩惱我們外交部從民國111年起在舊有的宿舍區改建新的北投秀山宿舍那這項建案就在明天5月3號會竣工可以提供同仁更優質的居住空間第三在對待友善方面"},{"start":2523.84,"end":2552.259,"text":"為了建立友善職場的文化我們外交部每年針對主管會辦理領導成長職場不法侵害以及衝突事件的處理訓練並且結合員工管理諮詢協助主管建立良好團隊的氣氛另外也加強宣導職場不法侵害的防制觀念訂定單位主管或駐外館長領導同意應該注意事項責成單位主管加強注意和屬原的溝通協調"},{"start":2553.921,"end":2562.542,"text":"另外,我們外交部也頒勉選拔以及公開表揚基優工作同仁用這個來激勵同仁的逝去提升同仁的榮譽感"},{"start":2564.537,"end":2591.03,"text":"除了建構友善的職場環境我們外交部也具體守護同仁的心理健康我們外交部從民國98年起就導入員工協助方案整合內外資源建置三級心理衛生安全預防架構向同仁宣導以及推廣心理衛生資訊以提升自我察覺的意識再則藉由各單位的關懷系統及早發現同仁的異常症候尤其是針對"},{"start":2592.41,"end":2620.756,"text":"特殊高風險的同仁進行危機處理提供諮詢以及其他必要的協助那特別在諮詢服務方面我們外交部委託外部廠商提供本部所屬機關以及駐外機構同仁和眷屬專業的諮詢服務那內容包含心理法律財務家庭健康治癌管理以及長照等等的這個議題那諮詢的過程和內容都依個人資料保護法心理"},{"start":2621.636,"end":2646.791,"text":"事法等相關倫理規範全程保密如果發生緊急事件我們外交部會依照規定立即通報相關單位及人員並且是危險的程度通報警政單位之後並持續追蹤關懷提供同仁必要的協助為了守護同仁的心理健康本部已經啟動潛在高關懷同仁服務的專案"},{"start":2648.332,"end":2674.131,"text":"透過心理健康的問卷來發掘潛在心理壓力比較高的這些同仁除了幫助同仁及早察覺自我的壓力狀況之外也提醒同仁們要尋求諮詢的協助除了以上個人議題的諮詢服務之外我們外交部的員工協助方案也積極安排駐外館長以及主管使用管理諮商安排返國述職的館長參加相關的課程"},{"start":2677.128,"end":2697.138,"text":"每年也針對單位以及同仁的需求辦理各項領導壓力調適心理健康醫療保健等主題訓練講座並且持續運用多元的這個管道來在宣導提醒同仁關注自我的狀態鼓勵同仁三用員工協助方案來維護心理的健康"},{"start":2697.958,"end":2724.307,"text":"各位委員如同我剛剛前面所說的我們外交部的工作就像是進行無煙消的戰爭因此維護外交人員的身心健康才能發揮外交團隊的最大的戰力那未來我們外交部將會持續努力精進打造更完備的友善職場的環境提供同仁更全面的照顧最後我要再一次感謝大院以及各位委員對於我們職場"},{"start":2725.367,"end":2730.32,"text":"以及工作同仁的這個健康的關心以上報告請多指教謝謝"},{"start":2738.373,"end":2756.363,"text":"我們現在開始詢答本會委員7加2分鐘非本會委員5分鐘10點30分發言登記截止如有臨時提案請於10點30分之前提出11點左右是詢答情形進行處理現在請羅美玲委員上台質詢謝謝主席有請吳部長請吳部長"},{"start":2771.826,"end":2787.661,"text":"委員早部長早部長剛才你有提到我們外交部每天都面臨各種嚴峻的挑戰所以每一位同仁確實背負了非常大的壓力所以為了守護我們同仁的心理健康所以我們外交部在98年"},{"start":2788.982,"end":2795.685,"text":"請了就定有員工協助方案實施計劃就是我們所稱的EAP計劃可是我們從剛剛您的這個報告裡面發現其實以外交部這麼高壓的這個工作環境可是我們發現這個外交部的這個人員使用EAP的這個諮詢使用的這狀況其實是不高的我們從這個2021年來看我們看看這三年來"},{"start":2818.715,"end":2831.999,"text":"2011年我們外交部跟駐外館的這個正式人員有這個2387人這其中還不含剛剛部長您所提的這個眷屬那也不含這個約聘人員然後我們這個EAP諮詢使用的這個人數呢2021年74年2022年77人2023年87人如果按照這個人數比例來看的話其實也大約是在3.1%到3.0%"},{"start":2845.913,"end":2845.933,"text":"臺灣的這個"},{"start":2862.641,"end":2862.802,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2880.743,"end":2886.588,"text":"大部分有90%以上就是憂鬱症跟焦慮症所以我們在想說外交部這麼高壓的工作環境可是我們EAP的諮詢使用的數據跟衛福部就醫的比例其實是有一些落差的所以我想請教部長到底是什麼樣的一個原因讓我們部裡面的人員好像不太使用這個計畫"},{"start":2907.745,"end":2907.765,"text":"請問部長"},{"start":2917.732,"end":2940.724,"text":"第一個事情就是其實我們外交部人員從一進步的時候就可以知道說在我們外交部的這個工作是壓力蠻大的那我想也訓練了同仁高強力的這種抗壓性這是一方面那另外一方面就是說這個尋求諮詢服務的這些同仁不是說我們希望能夠介入"},{"start":2941.144,"end":2964.654,"text":"那我們就可以介入這個涉及到個人的這個隱私那但是我們也透過這種問卷調查的這個方式希望能夠鼓勵同仁也使用這些諮詢的服務那就諮詢服務的這些項目因為這個是涉及個人的隱私所以我沒有相關的這些資料我也不會去要相關的資料但是至於他的內容等等的那我想我請我們的人事處處長來跟委員做簡單的說明是好處長"},{"start":2971.391,"end":2987.843,"text":"跟委員報告,其實我們的EAP的使用的人數其實都一直有在成長當中,那因為基本上員工協助方案,就誠如剛剛部長說的,因為這牽扯到個人的健康狀況,他有時候可能"},{"start":2990.004,"end":2996.026,"text":"完全看完全的意願他也不是完全會使用我們到我們員工協助方案他可能會用使用國內的在外面的一些基調機構那我們在國外的駐外機構他基本上他們也可以使用當地的的諮詢機構所以我們對我們來講我們就是多多鼓勵他們如果能夠信賴我們這套EAP的這個制度的話那就來多了使用那據我們所使用的結果的滿意度基本上其實都蠻高的所以"},{"start":3018.353,"end":3039.6,"text":"這也就是讓我們更有信心一直要有這樣的一個推動要多多宣導讓我們的同仁來相信我們這樣的一個EAP制度那我們EAP的整個制度來講它是其實它提供了有很多像家庭方面還有法律還有它心理還有它個人的人際關係等它的多元的廣域其實是蠻多的以上"},{"start":3041.761,"end":3062.792,"text":"好謝謝處長我想請教一下部長我們這個到這個EAP這裡做一個諮詢的話會不會是說我們的外交部人員會不會想說我不想在這裡留下任何的記錄或是說他會擔心說影響到升遷因為我知道說除了外交部有在使用EAP其他部會其實也都有"},{"start":3063.292,"end":3077.639,"text":"那我們之前曾經也詢過其他基層的一些其他部的這個員工他們說其實他們覺得說不是那麼的信任因為怕說未來會影響到一些升遷部長你認為會有這種狀況發生嗎?絕對不會 絕對不可能像我們在辦理這種升遷啊或者是輪調的作業過程當中絕對不會去處理到這一方面的這個問題那我在這邊可以做保證"},{"start":3089.204,"end":3113.112,"text":"所以是請我們部裡的員工就是盡量的就是信任這一套計畫然後相信我們外交部OK好謝謝那我們也希望就是說我們外交部能夠提供員工一個在身心靈方面都能夠非常安心的一個工作環境OK好那接下來我要請教部長的是處長請回我要請教部長我能不能再多做一點點補充跟委員做一下補充"},{"start":3114.392,"end":3143.795,"text":"那我覺得我們的同仁是不是能夠感受到那個我們外交部是一個友善的職場環境我常常覺得說我應該要以身作則從我自己開始那跟我工作過的同仁都知道說彼此相互對待那如果說能夠有這個友善的這個態度的話那這個可以擴及到整個外交部那自從我到外交部之後這種風氣這種文化是逐漸的在擴展當中所以我們外交部"},{"start":3144.295,"end":3151.688,"text":"很久以前有聽說過長官如何對待部署的這種嚴厲的這個故事現在已經完全都沒有了"},{"start":3153.39,"end":3180.618,"text":"謝謝部長您的努力我希望這個能夠持續下去接下來我想要請教的就是部長的就是有關於這個台灣關係法那台灣關係法到今年剛好是45週年那在1979年立法的時候說實在那時候的時空背景跟現在是完全是不一樣因為那時候中國剛結束文化大革命剛好滿三年那時候又是美蘇冷戰的處於最高峰的這時候而且中國還沒有崛起"},{"start":3182.218,"end":3188.96,"text":"經過這45年來,其實我們看到最近常常有專家學者就在說臺灣關係法應該要來修法了,因為我們看到當然蘇聯也解體了,蘇聯解體中國崛起"},{"start":3198.983,"end":3222.839,"text":"當初的那個時空背景是完全的不一樣而且現在中國不斷的成為這個擾亂世界秩序的一個很重要的一個亂源等於是說地緣政治已經發生了一個很重大的一個改變所以現在專家學者就說我們應該要來修臺灣關係法請問部長我們這邊目前有沒有這樣子跟美方有沒有這樣子的一個協調或說這樣子的一個溝通"},{"start":3226.594,"end":3250.254,"text":"非常謝謝委員,委員對於這種國際局勢的這種變化的這種了解讓人感動那至於我們跟美方之間就這個議題的討論我知道是有一些好朋友他們有提出來就是說整個國際局勢變化的就好像委員剛剛所說的也因此需要來修訂那個台灣關係法那可是在於我們跟"},{"start":3251.215,"end":3251.655,"text":"美國政府是可以協助我們參加國際組織"},{"start":3272.686,"end":3296.729,"text":"布林肯國務卿他就對外發言說要協助我們台灣參加這一屆的世界衛生大會所以這個根本不構成對我們台灣的這個限制那另外關於協助我們台灣的這個防衛能力而言台灣關係法裡面已經有很多的這些相關的這些條文包括協助我們台灣自我防衛的能力或者是讓美國在這個地區擁有足夠來"},{"start":3297.85,"end":3298.25,"text":"外交部長吳釗燮"},{"start":3319.631,"end":3344.304,"text":"通通都可以被適用到那個台灣那所以我想台灣關係法的這個適用的這個程度是非常的廣也因此我個人也覺得說沒有必要再去修訂台灣關係法那如果說有一些其他的這些項目希望能夠補充的話那我想我們的美國的國會議員他們是非常的active在不斷的在推動一些友台的這些法案那對這些我們都表達感謝"},{"start":3344.864,"end":3366.914,"text":"所以部長您是認為說臺灣關係法目前是夠用的所以沒有要修法的這個考量還是換句話說不想觸動中國敏感的神經病並不是這個我想那個臺灣關係法本身如果說委員可以去看一些比較重要的條文的話我想應該會跟我有一個同樣的結論就是說這一部臺灣關係法的確對我們臺灣來講非常的重要裡面的條文已經非常的足夠"},{"start":3373.297,"end":3374.018,"text":"主席,有請胡副長。請部長。"},{"start":3404.235,"end":3428.025,"text":"委員早部長早個人過去在公職服務期間也曾經在外管服務好幾次那麼後續在其他的國際合作工作間也以不同國家的外管互動良多所以部長剛才提出來的我們面臨是一個沒有煙消的戰場面臨的國際局勢動態變化的非常大挑戰"},{"start":3428.925,"end":3443.592,"text":"我深切表認同而且感受很深我舉一個例子也就是說我們在任何一個領域以外交部整體而言我們即便是一個小小的成就感其實是累積了無數駐外同仁的挫折感"},{"start":3454.859,"end":3469.529,"text":"當地僑民工作、子女的教育環境以及他的家庭能不能夠配合所以這個部分我完全能夠感受因此我個人完全認同我們在度外有關房屋租金"},{"start":3470.45,"end":3470.61,"text":"委員長吳釗燮報告"},{"start":3499.012,"end":3499.132,"text":"主席"},{"start":3517.432,"end":3517.472,"text":"主席"},{"start":3546.135,"end":3546.415,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3556.118,"end":3556.318,"text":"外交部部長吳釗燮報告"},{"start":3579.502,"end":3597.905,"text":"這個使館駐外的辦公室如果館長副館長的考核我們駐外同仁他的眷屬他的語言能力能夠承擔到某個程度建議比照local employee的方法讓他能夠擔負一個管內的工作也可以減低他的家庭負擔那麼這是我個人一個粗淺的看法"},{"start":3598.645,"end":3622.994,"text":"至於就是在國內部分能夠照顧到我們的身心平衡其實剛剛你已經講了並不是代表每一個人願意把他心裡的壓力因為我們在工作的挑戰有的時候的壓力會變成我們的驅動力那只是希望不要把他這個驅動力過度表現到對家庭對其他同仁過度的反應上我們是從正面來看法那至於榮總的醫療協調部分我站在這邊"},{"start":3625.615,"end":3625.735,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3641.046,"end":3667.97,"text":"非常謝謝陳委員那剛剛講的都非常的精闢那尤其是駐外的這個經驗我也曾經擔任過駐外的那個代表雖然說時間沒有很長但是也瞭解非常體認到我們駐外人員的這個辛苦那也因此對於如何來照顧我們的這些同仁提高他們的這個補助讓他們在國外的這個生活能夠配合到當地的這種物價水準等等的"},{"start":3668.87,"end":3689.287,"text":"我們都有做這方面的努力也非常謝謝委員的支持另外有關於眷屬是不是能夠在館長的考核之下當成是一個local employee的方式來處理這個由我們來加以檢討看看是不是能夠來具以執行如果說能夠在一個公平"},{"start":3690.107,"end":3703.823,"text":"或者是說有經過考核的這個基礎之上的話那我相信這個是有空間的那我們在外館的時候也看到就是說那個眷屬實際上也都搭配了那個我們大使館的這些工作"},{"start":3704.884,"end":3726.616,"text":"那常常可以看到我們這些眷屬也非常的活躍那有時候在一些比較小的這些國家擔任我們的那個駐外人員其實是全管的這個同仁再加上所有的這些眷屬都投入到這個服務的這些工作那我想對於我們同仁以及眷屬的這些投入那我們都非常的感謝也會來研究"},{"start":3728.237,"end":3748.551,"text":"委員所剛剛提的這個提案看是不是能夠公平的來實行那另外有關於榮總非常謝謝委員其實我們跟榮總之間也保持非常好的這種聯繫那榮總也提供我們外交部這邊很好的這些服務那如果說有需要陳委員的這個部分那我們再來跟陳委員拜託謝謝委員謝謝部長謝謝"},{"start":3758.227,"end":3761.211,"text":"接下來請王帝宇委員上臺質詢謝謝主席,麻煩部長請部長"},{"start":3782.927,"end":3783.227,"text":"外交部長吳釗燮報"},{"start":3801.516,"end":3827.292,"text":"的工作狀況其實我們常常在外交委員會探討的都是工作績效面對的競爭國外的情形邀請的訪兵可是在執行這些績效的人其實他們的工作的loading負荷有時候一個機關要運作無兵就沒有降嘛所以今天這個題目很好那我先"},{"start":3828.598,"end":3853.248,"text":"根據大法官釋字785號解釋我們公務員服務法及公人員保障法規定要落實扶勤的工時及加班補償相關規範警政單位像我服務的台南市我的選區裡面的派出所就因為要符合這規範把一些派出所合併讓他人多一點這樣輪休的時候不會影響勤務都跟這個大法官解釋是有關係的"},{"start":3854.528,"end":3879.725,"text":"那這是大法官施制我們當然要尊重他是憲法這階層那我們在外交上的工作常常會因為對方或服務的對象而定或因為地緣政治或因為國內外政治氛圍來決定那個工作時間跟內容跟場域不是外交部同仁可以預先規劃的我規劃未來三個禮拜工作什麼第四個禮拜我要來度假了很難啊"},{"start":3881.306,"end":3894.591,"text":"接級越低越難有時候我們最辛苦的管員各位來到這邊做大概都已經到一定level以上了請你回憶你剛從外交學院出去的時候垃圾桶都要倒啊還不只是要做好多好多事情"},{"start":3895.56,"end":3923.149,"text":"那這樣工作loading Zone加上全球外交是全球工作尤其像國際貿易公司時差的關係所以就導致工作負荷那我前幾個禮拜去河內我就在旁邊觀察我們那些年輕的港元很優秀越南話也很會講跟當地的政府也很能互動他不管忙到多晚接近半夜負責打電報說我負責打電報要趕回住處要發電報那是他的工作"},{"start":3924.096,"end":3948.015,"text":"而我去看他們在審這一些移工的簽證的時候哇那個人多到我相信有去的委員都有看到那個排到房間坐滿了一直排排排排到外面走廊走廊再回轉一直排排下去而且那是一天兩班其中的一班而已所以是工作loading重那工作的loading重呢我們大概有兩種方式來處理第一個人力的配置所以伯爵你看"},{"start":3949.482,"end":3975.732,"text":"我們統計了最近從2019年2020年2021年2022年到2023年每一年的辭職的人數退休的人數跟新入職的人數在2023年多一個大概我們跟國際主流國家這個互動的績效出來了所以這個離退人數比較少一點但整個累積過我光算這五年差額41"},{"start":3981.648,"end":3995.16,"text":"有關於那個委員稍早講的這些部分那的確是講到我們外交部同仁的那個很辛苦的地方比如說有委員到某一個國家去參訪"},{"start":3996.081,"end":4017.656,"text":"或者是說有那個高層的出訪那甚至是有重要的這個高層的會議那我們的同仁是一定要在會議之後在參訪之後就必須要去寫電報那這個寫電報不是說馬上寫馬上好那這個都需要花時間因此我們同仁的這個工作的這個時間的確是跟其他的單位是不一樣的"},{"start":4018.496,"end":4042.57,"text":"那我們外交部的同仁也有很高度的使命感就是說我這個一定要很快把它給做好那另外有涉及到一些任務型的這些工作的話那是以這個任務完成為主那這個也很難去思考到那個很多事情有事前的準備就要花很長時間還有事後的回饋那工作分量中打電報要花很長時間有時候我們會想到加班費坦白講"},{"start":4047.634,"end":4069.408,"text":"人是人不是機器,有時候該增加員額要增加員額,否則齁,有那個生命賺那個加班費齁,沒有生命賺錢啦。所以我剛才講,我現在是靠看我們這個人力,我們現在是進來報名考試的人比較少,還是合格的人比較少,為什麼會累計缺額到這個數字出來?這個部分齁,細節的部分我請人事處長來做說明。"},{"start":4073.346,"end":4085.929,"text":"跟委員報告一下剛剛委員有提到那個工時問題委員我想跟你報告一下就是以前我們駐外機構是沒有加班費也沒有補休可是因為785號解釋的時候我們整個都改變過來了所以我們也讓我們的外管同仁他們也有補休尤其是我們責成我們的外管館長當事情告一段落的時候你要安排安排他補休假這都是我們一直要求"},{"start":4100.993,"end":4123.328,"text":"按照785號解釋還能開始有加班費是開始有重量的工作之後的補修這些有沒有管考表有我們都有你可以不揭露各自的本席要看是我們都有現在辦了一個國際重要會議某個處處我們最近有一個外交任務那後續的排修他有管員多少local staff有多少他怎麼排修因為"},{"start":4124.448,"end":4134.227,"text":"我們希望真的落實到需要照顧的人他有辛苦付出我們就要照顧他這部分請原諒我要比較嚴厲一點我要看到你們那個事後排休的這個順序好不好"},{"start":4136.087,"end":4150.311,"text":"如果加班費跟排休還不足以消化這裡我們有沒有增加一些原額的計劃對那個原額的部分呢因為我們每一年呢基本上我們每一年都有招考那個外交特考所以我們這個這一次的57期他們已經就是完成了如果在7月完成了6個月的實務訓練之後我們7月15號他們就會分派到我們的各個單位裡面去來做我們的勝利軍那個每年都有勝利軍你們這批勝利軍我們前兩個禮拜才去看過"},{"start":4165.116,"end":4182.896,"text":"希望我們今天的詢答不會讓他減少數量訓完即離職我跑快一點就是這個部分我就沒辦法在這邊討論部長或者我們相關的司長思考一下外交部有沒有工作減量的方法我對國軍也是這樣要求就是說有些paperwork有沒有重複的"},{"start":4183.897,"end":4202.854,"text":"有些會不會太官僚體系我可以簡化的這個要花點時間甚至於是專業的管理人才來思考就是說一個工作透過科技的協助我做一次完成五項那現在是要分五次做我不知道還有沒有這個啦這個給部長最不理理直一情這個部分開始來做處理我下面要講這個"},{"start":4204.496,"end":4216.375,"text":"這個部分是有關我們外交人員的婚姻狀況我沒辦法在這邊統計各位現在婚姻狀態如何啦這個不好在這邊問都個人領事我講一個故事我上一次去法蘭克福那因為要去立陶宛開會"},{"start":4217.964,"end":4235.243,"text":"然後呢法蘭克福機場出來剛好要轉機的時間有兩三個小時我就坐在法蘭克福他帶那個外交一個你們的老學長帶我到附近一個廣場然後坐在那邊天氣很舒服陽光灑著那你知道德國那種廣場都有啤酒啊"},{"start":4236.224,"end":4263.538,"text":"他就講說他快退休了我說那退休要去哪裡他說不知道他說他一輩子外交人員年輕的時候太太跟著他派外後來因為教育的需求所以孩子就留在美國他就派到另外一個單位然後他就離婚了孩子也分居他們家四個人大概分居四個國家或三個國家然後他要退休我說那就回台灣他說台灣也找不到親人了西門町那個房子也賣了我不是說每個外交人員最後都這樣子我說你這邊下的都跑空光"},{"start":4264.998,"end":4287.653,"text":"這是我遇到案例我們外交同仁就我一般認識了解起來離婚率偏高以目前外交部已婚職員我最新的統計有900位是同仁是已經結婚的佔了我們的人員的54%那個另外46%大概就是現在站在那邊跑來跑去比較年輕的那"},{"start":4288.902,"end":4313.96,"text":"配偶都是外交部的這900人裡面有108人有54對占總職員數大概6.5%我先請教部長你了解起來我們外交部同仁離婚率跟社會上比較起來有沒有比較高還是差不多而已這個部分我沒有仔細去做研究但是有兩點第一點就是委員剛剛講到說要減輕工作負擔那我到外交部"},{"start":4314.6,"end":4314.74,"text":"後來規劃進行"},{"start":4341.748,"end":4358.095,"text":"對沒有錯沒有錯我們在場就有夫妻除非兩個都很優秀兩個都很優秀除非兩個都很優秀升到大使級的那就很難派外的同管了而且有直屬工作關係的話這個也不太合適但是夫妻同管基本上這個是我們鼓勵的這個方向"},{"start":4359.475,"end":4381.482,"text":"我們李斌處處長是我學弟啊我那時候去溫哥華看到他的時候你剛好要去派那個三聖嘛他就要考慮孩子跟老婆要不要去加拿大所以這個都會面臨抉擇所以我最後就是提出就是如果同署辦公同管辦公這是一個好的因為工作壓力大有時候真的不是加班費或者休息時間"},{"start":4382.882,"end":4409.104,"text":"人跟人在共同的場域有共同的話題是共同的陪伴這個對紓解壓力有幫助沒有錯對家庭維繫也有幫助這一點是對的可以往那邊規劃那派外的話如果他們是有當然職務上利益不能不能對這個要有一些利益上的分別的管理但盡量去配合他我不知道國外的主管怎麼處理這部分可以細心來處理最後一個是如果他的配偶不是外交人員"},{"start":4410.124,"end":4438.232,"text":"我看到女的外交人員他派外的時候坦白講遇到困難比男性多一般先生在台灣有工作大概不太願意辭職跟在他天涯海角雖然男女平等但社會的現象是女性比較甘願他可能本來在銀行工作就辭了就跟著老公到海外去了他本來是有專長的他一去變人生地不熟沒有工作那我們當然有生活補助費大概一千萬美金左右"},{"start":4439.737,"end":4445.804,"text":"對於另外一半一起派外,如果有工作需求,目前外交部有沒有協助的方案?"},{"start":4454.372,"end":4472.137,"text":"跟委員報告剛剛部長已經有說過基本上我們一直很鼓勵這個夫妻同管那對於那個有專有專那個有隨同跟我們駐外同仁到國外去的話基本上就是有房補費房租補助費這些我們尤其是在生活補專資費那個都對尤其是在部長在任內的時候有特別針對就是對於未成年的那個房租補助費的加成也就是說我們希望他們能夠"},{"start":4484.061,"end":4485.962,"text":"這跟剛剛陳委員所提出來其實是一致的讓我們來考慮"},{"start":4516.242,"end":4516.422,"text":"徐委員長"},{"start":4540.323,"end":4559.932,"text":"部長很遺憾沒有辦法在這裡再跟你做更多太多的質詢但是我想問你從2018年開始到現在您自認為在部長這個職位上面您做得好或是不好做得好的話哪裡做得好做得不好的話自認為哪裡還有可以檢討的地方"},{"start":4561.088,"end":4576.461,"text":"非常謝謝委員的這個催詢到現在為止我已經到外交部已經6年出頭了那從進外交部到現在每一件事情我都非常的認真在處理那至於好或者是不好那我想就留給國人來做這個評論"},{"start":4579.884,"end":4598.077,"text":"好的,那國人打分數的部分呢,無外乎是希望從外交上面能夠換到很多的經濟成果。比方說呢,先前我們在簽訂萊豬的時候,很多人都很期待,可能會有BTA的簽署,可能會能夠加入IPEF。"},{"start":4598.977,"end":4609.47,"text":"那請問,部長您已經即將要卸任了,在這兩個主要的經濟體的這個加入項目上面,我們何時會有進度呢?"},{"start":4611,"end":4632.79,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是說我們台灣如果說要跟其他的國家有更多的這些貿易往來或者是說在政治上有更好的這個氣氛遵循國際的法規這個是一個必要的做法那也因此我們在進口或者是出口這些相關的產品的時候就是必須要遵守相關的法規依照科學的證據來處理相關的這個進出口的這個"},{"start":4636.592,"end":4650.3,"text":"有關於我們台灣跟美國之間的這種經貿的往來我們的那個21世紀貿易倡議第一階段已經簽了那現在正在討論第二階段第二個是就是避免雙重課稅那現在已經進入到緊鑼密鼓的階段這些都能夠讓我們台灣跟美國之間的這個經貿關係能夠非常加強"},{"start":4660.447,"end":4677.395,"text":"所以我們可以說簽了萊豬協議之後有這樣子一方面的經貿的進展但是對於包含是雙邊的BTA和IPF我想委員剛剛所說的簽了萊豬協議這個好像是跟事實是有一些不同的地方"},{"start":4678.395,"end":4696.267,"text":"我們如果說要遵循國際的這個貿易法規的話我們就不能夠針對其他的國家的這些產品有歧視性的作為但是因為人民的期待他們就我們看一般人民的期待他們您可以解釋但一般人民的期待他們會認為說是不是簽了萊豬協議之後沒有簽萊豬協議我想這個委員剛剛所說我剛剛有說我剛剛所說的就是21世紀貿易倡議"},{"start":4704.992,"end":4711.136,"text":"所以我了解您的說法了就是簽訂來租跟這些所謂ITF以及BTA拜託委員稍微做一個改變比如說你也去美國我也去美國我們很多人都去美國我們去美國所享用的這些豬肉"},{"start":4723.002,"end":4726.303,"text":"我理解您的說法,但我只是從民眾的角度來說,許多的民眾會誤以為簽訂萊豬之後可能有BPTA,可能有IPF"},{"start":4744.807,"end":4748.35,"text":"美方對於台灣使用能源,多次在美國商會提到了有關台灣電力的問題,能源轉型的落後,在外交部上面是怎麼跟美方來溝通這件事情的呢?"},{"start":4767.028,"end":4790.955,"text":"這個部分主責的單位是我們的經濟部那至於能源是否足夠如果說看看現在的那個儲備率的話我相信委員也應該會感受到我們的電力是相當充足的我是沒有感受到相當充足因為4月15號北北基差點要大停電大限電4月15號差點大限電的事情是擺在所有人的眼前"},{"start":4791.815,"end":4792.297,"text":"再來,烏克蘭戰爭至今,請問我們提供了多少的經驗?"},{"start":4797.581,"end":4824.679,"text":"如果要把所有的這些物資一般民眾的捐獻以及政府這邊的支出加起來大概有1億出頭美元1億出頭的美元那有一些的金援啊就我知道也不是從烏克蘭來協助可能是透過其他的國家協助那再轉進烏克蘭有包含在這1億美元裡面嗎全部都包括全部都包括了嗎"},{"start":4825.399,"end":4840.159,"text":"那我想請問一下當蕭美琴準副總統出訪捷克的時候我方有沒有就協助烏克蘭的部分承諾未來要提供任何的資源呢這個問題我希望您能夠誠實的回答"},{"start":4840.72,"end":4858.258,"text":"很誠實的跟委員回答蕭副總統當選人他去捷克的時候沒有去做任何的承諾那這些都是我們外交部跟這些其他國家在做討論的比如說烏克蘭的政府現在跟我們政府之間是沒有直接的關係"},{"start":4859.119,"end":4873.67,"text":"那如果說要協助的話能夠透過這些友善的這些國家比如像波蘭、捷克、斯洛伐克、立陶宛等等的那可以跟他們一起合作進入到烏克蘭協助烏克蘭的這些建設那目前都是這樣子在做"},{"start":4874.19,"end":4886.145,"text":"所以他的時間點上面就是說我們在跟傑克討論到的相關時間點上面跟烏克蘭的跟蕭副總統當選人去那邊沒有關係沒有重疊到沒有關係是沒有關係還是時間沒有重疊"},{"start":4890.971,"end":4911.279,"text":"就是說沒有關係那這個是我們外交部一直在跟我們的那個友善國家在做討論的跟蕭副總統當選的人群沒有關係今天的說法能夠記得因為之後或許會有更多的記錄揭露出來那如果說要用網路上面的假消息不是不是我一定是會用最真實的消息"},{"start":4912.279,"end":4939.189,"text":"那部長怎麼看待我們看到好幾個民調裡面來我們出示一下像是這個是在《美麗島電子報》所做的民調民眾最不滿意的部會首長那當然您不是第一名還沒有做到那麼差第一名是經濟部長王美華第二名是數貨部長唐鳳第三名是NCC主委再來是衛福部長薛瑞元再來是王國才"},{"start":4940.549,"end":4959.618,"text":"這幾個我覺得都相對真的蠻差的但下一個是您所以您怎麼看待自己的負面很高您覺得原因是為什麼呢31位的閣員裡面所選取的11位去做評比裡面您是第6位民眾希望想要越快換掉越好的部長"},{"start":4961.419,"end":4977.704,"text":"這個只是其中的一個民意調查而已我也看過其他的民意調查我是在內閣之中被認為表現最好的不滿意度最低的我也想冒昧請教一下是哪一個民調我想委員會使用網路去網路上找一下"},{"start":4977.924,"end":4981.546,"text":"再來我們再看下一個是根據台灣議題研究中心網路調查您也是國安國防團隊裡面負面聲量最高的"},{"start":5004.181,"end":5032.252,"text":"可能的原因包含是您先前8年來斷交10個國章斷交部長的這個說法還有在立院質詢的時候拍桌這些都不是我講的是新聞上面所說的那繼續擔任國防要職呢民眾國人是不買單的上面有三位嘛有吳釗燮部長顧立雄未來的部長跟蔡明彥局長這三個人裡面的負面聲量比較這是另外一個叫做TPOC的網路討論"},{"start":5034.333,"end":5043.344,"text":"國安國防的人選您的負面聲量高達28489跟其他兩位比起來高出非常的多您覺得是什麼原因呢?"},{"start":5044.69,"end":5073.163,"text":"我不確定是什麼原因但是這個網路上面的這些調查的確是有很多包括對政府的官員對立法委員也有那至於我在立法院裡面接受委員質詢的時候我都希望能夠照此來說但是我最擔心的一件事情就是說當中國在欺負我們的時候我們的立法委員是補進來踢一腳那誰是補進來踢一腳的立法委員呢這個部分就由委員自己去想"},{"start":5073.912,"end":5093.454,"text":"那你不能講說立法委員踢了一腳又不告訴我們是誰啊有那是誰呢那有誰啊我已經說了有是誰啊就有啊等一下主席不好意思因為今天我們的外交部長在我們的國會殿堂上面說了有"},{"start":5094.659,"end":5115.097,"text":"立法委員不知名的立法委員在中國大陸然後呢就配合中國大陸踢了中華民國一腳那我想這是對中華民國所有不分立法委員相當嚴厲的指控所以我想部長應該要負責任的說出他們的名字讓民眾"},{"start":5119.181,"end":5131.099,"text":"還沒通過如果通過會告但是你應該要讓民眾來以示公平您所說出的這些委員是不是配合中國大陸去踹中華民國一腳還是您"},{"start":5133.943,"end":5158.09,"text":"我沒有不負責任每一次在我們遭受到中國最嚴厲的侵害的時候如果說看一看我們國會裡面的這些狀況的話我相信委員會贊成我的說法那到底是誰呢我就很好奇啊你沒有說啊你一直說你說了我沒聽到任何一個名字啊"},{"start":5159.349,"end":5164.36,"text":"那我一個一個點名好不好那是我們現場好多喔是洪森翰委員嗎"},{"start":5167.455,"end":5170.216,"text":"我最後要告訴您如果您要在國會殿堂上面指控有任何一位立法委員"},{"start":5196.363,"end":5196.723,"text":"馬文君委員"},{"start":5226.021,"end":5228.061,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩請部長吳部長部長好部長你接下來要接的職務可能會面臨的挑戰會更廣更大所以其實有時候也不需要太容易受到影響尤其是辛勤因為未來"},{"start":5254.466,"end":5279.074,"text":"整個國際局勢的變動會更大而且對我們影響也很大尤其剛剛其實我認為有指控這是不太適當的這個我自己有親身經歷過所以我覺得如果要講那必須要把它講清楚尤其在國會這樣是不適當的那我沒有想要再追究下去不過這一點我們特別提出來因為"},{"start":5280.094,"end":5306.526,"text":"部長接下來可能要稱你為秘書長了其實你也一直守口如瓶在之前其實很多委員一直不管是朝野的委員其實都一直在請教我想大概你也都已經知道你會接這個職務了不過在這裡我們今天主要的就是員工協助的方案這個部分我們稍微提起來是因為其實在現在"},{"start":5309.287,"end":5319.654,"text":"世界衛生組織的統計裡面在21世紀三大疾病第一個就是癌症第二個是艾滋病第三個就是憂鬱症那憂鬱症在台灣還特別的高而且特別的明顯這個不管"},{"start":5325.018,"end":5339.567,"text":"因為一旦有憂鬱症可能就會造成很多身體上的疾病的引發比如說國人很多的心臟病啦高血壓啦失眠啦這些他對於工作家庭或者同事之間還有人際關係都會造成非常大的影響所以這也是我們為什麼"},{"start":5345.01,"end":5368.076,"text":"希望可以在政府部門或者相關的企業公司其實都有這樣子的員工協助方案可是我們要特別提出來包括我們看到業務報告裡面還有今天部長還有剛剛人事處的說明其實我們都在在看到我們看到的是它太浮面"},{"start":5369.056,"end":5382.364,"text":"因為我們編了五十幾萬那這五十幾萬的這個大概就是很簡單的取得那個標案那這個公司成立的也不多好像也不久然後也不是我們衛福部他認同的一個諮商的一個"},{"start":5390.728,"end":5391.448,"text":"應該是一樣吧"},{"start":5418.362,"end":5435.496,"text":"應該是一樣嗎?諮詢諮商是一樣的?你是當作一起因為現在的學生一般的大學對於在校生提供的心理諮商服務至少每學期都有6次每次50分鐘我們還不如一個大學"},{"start":5436.036,"end":5443.48,"text":"所以就整個我們的高強度的壓力之下的一個工作環境因為之前也發生過住處的處長自殺的狀況然後現在可能還是有會有衍生很多其他的問題所以我們希望我們任何一個政策然後你既然花了預算你就把它做到位"},{"start":5456.307,"end":5470.592,"text":"現在我們看到的可能我認為是嚴重的不足啦那你如果是沒有辦法提供很好的服務那還不如不要做因為我們寫的非常好可是沒有做到他的那個標準我們是盡量把它做好那如果說委員這邊有什麼樣寶貴的建議我們這邊就來討論"},{"start":5474.413,"end":5500.246,"text":"諮詢就是你大概4個小時那你一次要講4個小時又太長可是你有問題的時候要去講一個療程4個小時又不夠所以其實光是這樣他就已經沒有人可能會好好的利用這個部分所以這個部分我們現在今天特別提出來就是這個部分怎麼樣把它做到比較到位這個可能在後續再提供給我們相關的一些"},{"start":5501.727,"end":5505.11,"text":"資訊還有書面資料好不好我們來檢討改進那現在因為在整個國際局勢上面就是我們看到最近的一場選舉可能就是我們過去的邦交國所羅門群島他這一次有總理的選舉在2號就會產生了所以其實這個對於美中兩個強權其實都非常關注並不是因為他很"},{"start":5530.148,"end":5530.188,"text":"對,沒有錯"},{"start":5554.011,"end":5554.993,"text":"我們應該是說中華民國就這樣的一個部分他們是有沒有可能在選舉之後我們有沒有可能復交這個部分"},{"start":5566.219,"end":5586.315,"text":"有關於這個部分有關於索羅門群島的這個選舉的確我們都在關注當中那我們所看到的就是說那個原來的總理蘇嘉瓦瑞就是跟我們斷交的這個總理他已經宣布不再參選總理那但是我們看到那個索羅門國內的這個總理的選舉跟我們其他地方的有沒有可能復交"},{"start":5587.797,"end":5605.314,"text":"有關於這個部分可能還沒有走到那個地步但是我們會持續密切的觀察還沒有走到那個地步啦那我想委員剛所說的不只是美國關注連澳洲等等的其他的這些遊盟國家對於那個索羅門群島的這個政治的發展也都非常的關注"},{"start":5606.055,"end":5608.837,"text":"因為在野黨是希望跟臺灣復交,那既然他們國內有這樣子的一個想法,那這一次的選舉牽動可能也會有後續的影響,因為我們一直斷交,可能有機會,可能可以再增加。因為他們的選舉的風險跟我們的不一樣,所以我們還要再密切關注。"},{"start":5628.614,"end":5638.516,"text":"斷交的情況之下,我們也可以有復交或者增加邦交國我覺得這個可能也是一個方向,外交部盡力試另外一行,大概就是川普總統,前總統他這一次在年底的選舉,他也有可能當選那他當選,因為他在接受TIME的那個採訪的時候他說如果他贏"},{"start":5655.376,"end":5671.363,"text":"盟友不付錢就靠自己他每次都把他的目標跟他的做法其實都講得非常的清楚那今天因為反正就是兩個嘛那不是現任那有可能就是川普如果川普有可能再當選美國總統對我們會有什麼樣的影響因為未來在國安會跟美方的"},{"start":5678.826,"end":5689.369,"text":"互動或者未來在不管在台海也好或者像美台美中或者美中台關係等等其實這個都是很重要的一個方向如果以川普目前他的思考邏輯或者他的做法他過去對我們也是一樣而且他甚至認為如果我們沒有做到位"},{"start":5701.271,"end":5702.673,"text":"非常謝謝委員那這有兩點的說明"},{"start":5717.149,"end":5734.887,"text":"第一點就是說我們自我防衛的決心以及我們自我防衛能力的這個加強在這一方面是無庸置疑的尤其是我們在國防方面的這個投資我們訓練的加強以及跟美國等這些好朋友的這個安全關係的加強等等的那這些都應該是可以被看得到"},{"start":5735.567,"end":5758.505,"text":"第二點就是說美國跟台灣的關係會不會因為換了一個政府換了一個政黨執政而會受到衝擊那如果說看一看美國的國會我們是受到兩黨的歡迎的而且兩黨對我們都是非常的支持那在這個層次來看的話未來不管是誰執政跟台灣的關係我們都很有信心"},{"start":5759.209,"end":5780.975,"text":"部長因為我們會特別這樣問是我們必須付出多大的代價因為今天我們提增加了多少國防運算或者做什麼樣的訓練等等其實這都是其他的面向可是我們現在說的是美國一個對我們非常重要的國家然後他的領導人其實他的想法會牽動到我們未來付出的代價包括如果台海有衝突的時候我們"},{"start":5787.637,"end":5787.657,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":5804.92,"end":5830.886,"text":"很簡單的說明我們不是直接跟川普先生打交道我們也不是直接跟拜登先生打交道我們所做的就是說在美國兩黨裡面重要的這些人士我們同時都維持非常好的關係所以接下來如果說有不同的政府我相信在這些基礎之上我們都能夠維持非常好的關係美國協助我們的態度是不會改變的"},{"start":5831.186,"end":5857.141,"text":"他們協助的當然也是以美國的國家利益為考量因為現在如果在區域的競爭上面其實他們對於中國的崛起其實這才是他們最大的顧忌那現在在世界上已經有俄烏已經有中東甚至伊朗跟以色列其實也都有可能發生衝突在美國本土已經有很多的挺巴的這樣的衝突不斷的"},{"start":5859.042,"end":5859.942,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":5886.869,"end":5911.659,"text":"這個是我們要知道的我們講的不是只有他們的國會而已而是我們必須付出的代價這是我們比較關切的那未來您在國安會可能還是會有這樣全班的一個考量那就這個部分是不是在給不管新政府也好不管我們所有的我們整體包括我們的國人都應該要有這樣子的一個應對的一個可能未來性"},{"start":5913.039,"end":5919.861,"text":"對,非常謝謝委員,從各個角度來看這個事情,那我們會以我們國家利益為主,來強化我們的國防,謝謝委員。"},{"start":5941.849,"end":5942.473,"text":"謝謝主席 有請部長 謝謝請部長"},{"start":5951.523,"end":5978.116,"text":"委員好部長好那這個議會今天的題目這個排的是這個跟這個如何建構友善工作環境跟心理輔導所以我當然接著我一開始還是針對這個問題稍微問幾個小地方那第一個當然我覺得就是友善的工作環境也包含在立法院質詢那我不覺得我們立法院常常是一個友善的環境所以呢到底要怎麼去改善這件事情呢可能也不是部長可以去智慧的就有點麻煩"},{"start":5979.276,"end":5994.505,"text":"但無論如何我覺得一個健康的問政還是一個大方向為主因為我們有時候在問政的時候可以看到很多委員針對很多很小的細節針對很小的細節的時候有時候甚至是問到日期或是問到一些精準的數字這些又不好回答不好回答的時候"},{"start":5995.405,"end":6022.18,"text":"官員只要一旦沒有回答就回去剪成短影片變成是現在國會追求流量的一個常態所以這個我反而也會造成同仁很多的壓力但我順著這一點我就想要知道說因為在這邊我有看到很多關於一些三級預防的措施事後的諮商等等之類的但在前面這一邊這個跟我們的國防部現在面臨的狀況其實有點類似就是說現在大家在工作有時候是它的業務量太多了"},{"start":6022.9,"end":6046.091,"text":"我們目前看到就只有在第二頁這邊最主要是彈性工時那我想問一下就是有沒有什麼其他的方式可以讓業務量減少國防部是比較容易可以還往那個方向做事因為國防部無關的業務實在太多了但我不覺得外交部無關的業務有那麼多所以有沒有可能有朝這種以前像國防部以前那種精簡業務的方向是不是能夠可以減輕同仁的一些壓力"},{"start":6046.539,"end":6071.802,"text":"有,我們有都一直在朝這方面的努力比如說redundancy這個完全沒有必要的事情那我們就會試圖來解清這些工作啦那有時候那個以前常常長官會要求什麼報告什麼報告等等那這也會造成同仁的困擾那現在如果說能夠用口頭的這個方式啊就可以解決了那以前跟委員講一下以前的新聞稿是一層一層一層一層上去的"},{"start":6072.202,"end":6099.792,"text":"那這個花了同仁很多的這個功夫改來改去等等那現在通通在群組上面解決那這個就是減輕工作的壓力的一種方式那的確也因為我們適用了這些新的這個方式那同仁的這個工作雖然說有一些project必須要去完成那這個方面是沒有辦法減輕的但是一般來講現在已經比以前好很多我剛到外交部的時候那個有一些單位的這個同仁他們工作到半夜"},{"start":6100.572,"end":6123.212,"text":"那第二天一早又要來外交部那這個對我來講這個是不好的一個工作一個不好的這個情形那我知道我們工作是很賣力的但是工作如果說能夠適度幫他們減輕他們的這些負擔那會造成一個比較好的效果所以像我剛剛講的這種工作到半夜然後第二天一早又來的這種情形現在已經減少很多了"},{"start":6123.932,"end":6147.784,"text":"謝謝部長那我覺得這個蠻重要的齁因為在各個企業其實有時候都會去評估齁就是說比如說尤其是比較中階的一些這個主管他們會不會壓力過大因為他一方面要承受上面的一些指示然後下面的這個壓力鍋也是往他身上砸齁那在很多時候呢他們有一個評估的指標就是要看是不是很多人呢他其實在基層他已經不願意往上升了因為他知道他往上升反而卡在中間的時候壓力會特別大所以也希望因為之後這個這個部長別有任務"},{"start":6149.745,"end":6169.586,"text":"當然這邊有很多的這些舉助首長可以去注意一下就是這些要往上升遷的這一個能量它是不是有點低落如果有低落的話就表示有一個警訊發生這是一個小建議但我再繼續往下這個是上次有提到的就是資訊安全跟人身安全因為這是另外一件事就是說他們除了一些業務量的減少之外他自己在"},{"start":6170.126,"end":6199.666,"text":"外面所受到的威脅這件事情有沒有一個適當的輔導這個在上次問過了所以這個我想要延續下去就是這一個關於菲律賓小鎮的這個事情因為最近我們注意到就是說菲律賓有一個小鎮就還有4000多名的這個中國留學生他根本不會英文全部湧入到一個小鎮裡面那這個呢因為在那邊有這個美菲的這個加強國防合作協議的設施在那一邊所以呢這邊就是高度懷疑他們有可能是要來竊取這些跟美方相關的一些"},{"start":6200.026,"end":6205.567,"text":"他想取得的並不是美方的一些機密而已他想要取得的是台灣的那因為之前我在上一次還上上次問的是有問到駭客攻擊就是說暗網上面很多外交部的資料"},{"start":6228.872,"end":6246.25,"text":"我覺得那個禮拜還真的又跑出來一些但是我現在要講的是這種比較肉身有關的他如果透過這種洗人口的方式到那一個國家但是他去竊取的是我們外交人員的機密那這個有沒有應對的措施因為這個顯然是這一年之內越來越多的這樣的案例"},{"start":6247.163,"end":6263.642,"text":"跟委員報告一下其實我們外交人員都有這方面的訓練就是涉及到如何來保護自己而且涉及到在這個外交場合來捍衛我們自己的這個國家的利益或者是說國家的尊嚴那這方面的訓練其實是非常嚴格的"},{"start":6264.382,"end":6284.549,"text":"譬如像我們在社會上面有時候會覺得說我們外交部的同仁這都沒在管那都沒在管那其實如果說仔細去看我們外交部同仁在第一線上面對於我們國家的這個安全或者是尊嚴的這個爭取那可以我相信委員或者是其他指導的這些同仁也會非常的感動那但是也因為這些情形"},{"start":6285.449,"end":6302.946,"text":"在一些非邦交的國家尤其是那些比較小的那些國家常常會直接面對來自中國外交人員的這種激進於那個肢體的這種脅迫或者是壓力那以前也曾經在一個非邦交的國家"},{"start":6304.367,"end":6330.785,"text":"受到來自這些中國的外交人員的那個肢體的攻擊所以這些事情都有那我想我們的同仁在受訓的時候甚至是在外派的時候這方面我們都會提醒也都會加強因為這個就是對我來講是一種比較新型態的攻擊像剛剛有提到的他直接比如說他們大使館的人直接來針對我們的外交人員做攻擊這是他們很常做的事情跟監啊我還聽過很多外交人員宿舍要一直換的嘛"},{"start":6332.305,"end":6348.835,"text":"現在就像我們在講他們的那個軍事的船隻會包裝成漁業的船隻對我們做灰色期待的侵擾現在就變成說他在海外第一個他有海外的一些公安所以他不是直接跟解放軍有關的也不是跟國安部有關的然後再來就是他甚至就是完全一般人民"},{"start":6349.235,"end":6367.506,"text":"他就是中國的留學生然後他可能來做騷擾那這種新型態呢如果理論上以我們立法委員的立場我們當然是可以去做一些規範然後看能不能夠說做一些抵抗但現在的我們的國會的這一個組成其實要讓我們通過這些相類似的法案變得不是很方便我必須要這樣講"},{"start":6368.406,"end":6396.906,"text":"所以就變成說有時候反而是行政機關要彈性要有一些SOP就是如果遇到這種新形態的措施我們應該怎麼辦所以希望呢因為我在後面這邊也有整理了一些這個目前他們這個不是我整理對不起這個應該是這個是別的這個組織做整理就是關於他們海外公安現在遍布的一個狀況所以我覺得大概可以分成三個層次就是第一個是跟解放軍跟國安部有關的那一個種類的侵擾然後第二個部分是從海外公安的侵擾"},{"start":6397.426,"end":6422.025,"text":"而且公安的侵擾現在變得越來越多而且這個並不是一個台灣熟悉的經驗是因為我們理論上不會有這樣的一個海外公安這反而是比較偏國際的經驗然後第三個就是我們剛剛講的它完全不屬於這種官方的它是混裝成一般人民那是用一般人民的方式來做侵擾而且它可能可以去接受不管是使館或者受到海外公安的一個指示那我是覺得因為目前還沒有我看菲律賓這個案子應該算行"},{"start":6423.766,"end":6451.247,"text":"那很多在菲律賓身上發生的事情在其他的國家針對台灣有可能發生所以我覺得是不是有可能就是當然現在其實520已經快到了但是在這個之前能不能先研擬一個快速的那種行政上的一個辦法就如果遇到這個狀況我們第一時間應該怎麼做我們的新聞稿可能要怎麼發布我們怎麼讓國際社會知道這件事情然後以及我們第一線人員的保護措施是什麼因為這一定又是影響到另外一個層次的今天的主題就是心理健康所以"},{"start":6451.627,"end":6454.868,"text":"謝謝委員的提問和建議這個建議非常的重要的確在海外的這個環境跟以前也不太一樣的那我們這邊就依照委員的這個建議我們來擬"},{"start":6472.035,"end":6493.812,"text":"最後一個很快速的很不好意思這個時間我有點超過就是因為最近這個國家秘密法保守國家秘密法就是這一個中國的這個法令他其實二月的時候就已經知道了他現在已經正式實施了所以現在很大的一個問題就是說因為現在中國國安這一個法律導致就算我們今天不是去中國因為去中國的風險應該變越來越高了很容易被抓"},{"start":6494.332,"end":6510.191,"text":"但也有可能我今天是去別的國家比如說我去泰國但是那邊遇到解放軍的遇到他的海外公安所以也有可能因為這個新的法律現在國人甚至去別的國家被中國針對的風險也提高了那這個會比較麻煩是因為我們的旅遊警示一直以來都是不是以這個為主那"},{"start":6511.593,"end":6528.633,"text":"我們有沒有可能今天中國在海外對台灣人的威脅這件事情它會不會變成在我們旅遊警示重要的一個參考的標準那這個標準如果要定的話要怎麼做這個我也沒有什麼特別的想法那就想說未來我們針對這件事情或許可能需要更深入的一個討論"},{"start":6529.494,"end":6554.935,"text":"好,我們也來做討論的確那個中國通過的這些法律和之前通過的那個反間諜法對我們國人到中國去旅遊甚至是到香港澳門去旅遊等等的都構成相當程度的這個風險那我想對於我們海外的這個台橋來說他們如果說有機會到這個中國或者是香港澳門等等的那我想這個旅遊的這個風險"},{"start":6555.976,"end":6556.356,"text":"謝謝部長謝謝委員謝謝主席"},{"start":6585.943,"end":6585.963,"text":"請吳部長"},{"start":6613.906,"end":6622.903,"text":"吳委員好這個捍衛國家的利益跟捍衛國家的立場尤其是在"},{"start":6624.554,"end":6652.596,"text":"我們面對中國這麼大的威脅之下其實這是一件非常辛苦的事情所以我在今天的質詢之前我想先針對這部分先跟外交部的同仁表達一聲我覺得非常非常深的敬意因為這件事情也包括剛剛我們在質詢的過程裡面我也清楚知道部長其實是在要捍衛立場其實是一個非常深切的心情所以做了很多的表達"},{"start":6654.698,"end":6680.398,"text":"但是今天還是想跟部長來討論幾個事情其實我今天想跟部長討論的事情之前也有幾個委員曾經在外交國防委員會裡面其實有提到也包括在野黨的委員部長今年年初發生的一件事情就是丹麥政府片面的將臺灣的居民的居留證的出生地改成了中國我想部長一定知道這件事情那這是一件很嚴重的事情那據我所知"},{"start":6681.559,"end":6705.659,"text":"外交部當然有向丹麥政府抗議這件事情但目前丹麥政府並沒有改善的動作部長你覺得原因是什麼跟委員報告一下有關於這件事情的確我們在丹麥的這些僑界的人士或者是丹麥的好朋友和我們的那個大使館的同仁注意到這件事情之後我們都想盡辦法希望丹麥政府能夠改善"},{"start":6706.5,"end":6730.073,"text":"那透過很多的這些努力包括我自己接受丹麥的報紙的這個訪問那這個出來的篇幅是很大那我想丹麥的這個外交部也發現說這個是一個問題那但是處理這件事情的那個他們當地的那個registration並不是丹麥的外交部所以現在還在他們內部的這個討論當中也希望說他們能夠很快的能夠改善"},{"start":6730.353,"end":6750.06,"text":"部長,因為當然這段時間也很多我們其實這個旅居丹麥的國人來跟我們澄清那說他們當然現在居留證上面因為國籍欄直接被改成了這個標示為China CHN所以其實等於現在在丹麥政府來說是把他們註記為是中國的公民"},{"start":6750.97,"end":6775.652,"text":"那部長你知不知道把他們註記成中國公民其實對他們整體的生活帶來什麼樣的影響外交部有沒有相關的報告我們沒有相關的報告但是這個是一個大家都可以想像到的事情就是中國在海外的這種reputation並不是很好那如果說我們被當成是中國人的話那我想這個對我們的台橋來講這個是絕對不公平的事情部長可能這不是reputation的問題而已下一張"},{"start":6777.355,"end":6792.538,"text":"我們就目前為止其實這些來就就是旅居丹麥的我們國人其實來反映的齁其實這裡面有非常非常多實質生活的問題包括因為這個他們包括像銀行的開戶商業的保險結婚的登記接下來如果"},{"start":6793.098,"end":6816.709,"text":"假設會有一些跨國的離婚的訴訟或者是財產分配的訴訟的時候因為你現在被註記為中國公民所以後面可能都會有相關司法管轄權的問題這是第一個第二個因為丹麥是一個高度數位化的國家所以他們其實很多是使用他們叫做MIDID的做法來去標示來去運用他們的數位身份那因為"},{"start":6818.083,"end":6831.674,"text":"他們不承認台灣的護照所以其實都必須用居留證來啟用MIDID所以現在變成他用MIDID這個數位身份要去連結到的各種文件上面都會被標註他變成是中國人或中國公民"},{"start":6832.677,"end":6855.783,"text":"再來外交部的當然很努力那很多國家我們都有免簽的待遇但很多國家我們要進出很多國家都需要去確認你的護照跟你的居留證是否是一致的在這個狀況下面他們的護照跟居留證在要去進出很多國家的時候就會被辨識為是不一致的狀況這會影響很多他們的權益也包括我們自己在很多國家有簽租稅協議"},{"start":6856.883,"end":6881.961,"text":"那所以現在在這個狀況之下當他們被標註中國人的時候這些相關的租稅協議還適不適用這都是問題所以這不是只是這個名譽上面的問題而已這是很多實質上面生活的問題我自己認為恐怕外交部是需要把他們在當地遇到實質上面的問題做一個更清楚的掌握不然我今天跟你談這件事情我並不是說要去譴責說啊為什麼丹麥的政府"},{"start":6882.821,"end":6908.156,"text":"做這件事情我們知道我們外交的處境是很艱辛的遇到這個事情我們可以理解但我這邊想跟部長表達事情是我們其實在丹麥的這些國人坦白說他們現在是一波一波的自救的行動但他們跟我反應相對於其他的辦事處他們確實感覺我們在駐丹麥的辦事處是相對消極的"},{"start":6909.864,"end":6936.318,"text":"是相對沒有讓他們感覺到成為他們這些自救行動一個強力的靠山的包括在各種態度的表達上面在各種能做的事情上面好像沒有盡全力這是現在這些我們駐丹麥的國人來跟我們表達他們很遺憾的事情或者很擔憂的事情他們沒有覺得在這件事情上面我們的辦事處"},{"start":6937.478,"end":6956.508,"text":"是他們強力的靠山部長這是你覺得這個是我沒有聽到的但是既然委員跟我講了那我這不是一個人表達而已他們用很多管道很多澄清的管道在各方的澄清這件事情那他們都有我覺得都有很強烈的台灣心跟台灣主體的意識我覺得這部分沒有問題"},{"start":6957.549,"end":6974.799,"text":"反而是我沒有想要一竿子打翻所有的人但就有聽到是在這個部分看起來我知道歐洲是可能也有出相關的關切但我們現在的力度我們是不是還有能做而未做的事情這部分我是希望部長有沒有可能"},{"start":6975.799,"end":6996.593,"text":"我覺得部長一定很了解,所以我是覺得要不要部長需要不要親自督導這件事情至少讓我們其實旅居在丹麥他們其實這麼遙遠的地方而且這麼辛苦這麼努力而且他們不斷的在為台灣發聲也為自己的權益發聲可是看起來這個得到政府我們代表處的支援是不足的"},{"start":6997.553,"end":7019.422,"text":"非常謝謝委員 既然委員提醒了 那這個部分我就來瞭解來加強那以我個人的態度我甚至是願意接受那個丹麥的那個媒體的來訪問而且講了很多甚至講到強到說你們如果說把臺灣當成是中國或者是中國的一部分的話這個可能是提供中國一個侵略臺灣的一個藉口都已經講到這麼強了"},{"start":7022.503,"end":7043.356,"text":"我自己也翻了一下包括我們在歐洲議會2月的時候通過這個共同外交及安全政策的報告裡面其實他很清楚說這個中國對台灣的領土主張是不具國際法的基礎的那也就是台灣跟中國是互不隸屬的只有台灣的民選政府可以在國際上面代表台灣人民我認為"},{"start":7044.878,"end":7059.661,"text":"我們在駐丹麥的辦事處我們其實應該好好利用這個像這樣相關的報告的內容來極力的爭取我們在那邊的權益那我覺得這是可以做的事情包括我們也看到其實丹麥國會在2022年也全數通過支持台灣加入WHA"},{"start":7060.502,"end":7078.488,"text":"這代表在丹麥的政界應該也有支持台灣很強力的力量所以這些相關可以運用的資源我們是不是都已經好好的運用了我覺得這部分是希望部長來跟我們不管是歐洲司不管是我們駐丹麥的辦事處到底要怎麼來檢討"},{"start":7080.089,"end":7087.555,"text":"但最後成功與否我知道不完全掌控在我們自己的手上這部分我理解可是我認為應該要讓我們在丹麥的僑界或丹麥在"},{"start":7092.352,"end":7092.932,"text":"接下來請陳冠廷委員上台諮詢"},{"start":7134.656,"end":7134.977,"text":"委員好部長好"},{"start":7146.56,"end":7171.994,"text":"部長在開始之前我先簡單回應其實今天很多記者朋友都有提到川普前總統有提到對台灣或者是對盟友特別是應該是強調是對盟友是否有有沒有這個付錢有沒有付錢基本上就是這樣子那我必須再強調其實我們對美的順差對美的順差在去年去年是805億美元所以說其實某種程度來上"},{"start":7172.734,"end":7173.114,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7192.794,"end":7194.675,"text":"部長,我想要請教一下我們對日關係的框架"},{"start":7208.763,"end":7228.075,"text":"那我知道說其實我們對美關係其實越來越好那但是對日的部分隨著這個我們安倍前總理的過世之後其實在自民黨上面都還是會有一些系統上面的變化我想是不是可以請部長或者是秘書長來簡單來扼要的來說明一下我們現在對日工作的狀況"},{"start":7229.797,"end":7258.148,"text":"我先做一個非常簡單的那個回應有關於我們跟日本之間的那個交流那雖然說安倍總理已經不在了可是我們跟日本各界的這個關係也都維持的非常的好那譬如像跟官僚體系的這個關係通常我們這方面是沒有對外來做說明但是跟官僚體系之間的那個聯繫狀況也都非常的密切我們台灣的待遇也都提升了至於一些那個對我們的這個禮遇也都在加強當中"},{"start":7262.851,"end":7282.646,"text":"我特別強調這個部分是因為其實我們很多國會議員的同事那我們過去包含我的前輩那國務委員都是以自民黨的甚至跟安倍總理那一個系統比較友善但是我們是希望包含我跟其他的國會議員的同事都希望能夠開拓開拓不同的系統"},{"start":7283.086,"end":7304.53,"text":"包含維新會、維新智慧也好,或者是公民黨或許是立憲民主黨,這是我們想要做的。所以我們是希望說在因應這樣的狀況之下,特別是我們現在國會議員的國會外交對日本,如同你所說的待遇不斷在成長。那過去以前在日本參議院實習的時候,其實我們知道說有很多限制,現在慢慢的限制不斷的在模糊化。"},{"start":7304.95,"end":7331.612,"text":"所以這部分我們講對對日的這些工作同仁我們是給予肯定但是我們有一個小小的問題在哪裡就是說對日本的這樣子的工作外交的工作那人力上面其實其實人力上面我看每年的外交特考在日本的部分不是一位就是兩位那我還記得在馬前總統時代本來兩位的被看成一位那這樣子的狀況下有沒有辦法應對"},{"start":7333.554,"end":7357.951,"text":"6、700名國會議員、眾議院、參議院那我們要必須長期間跟他的這個接洽我想請教這個部分你們會有什麼樣的看待需不需要能夠擴增這個部分的緣分至於有兩個層次啦第一個層次就是說我們跟日本國會的這個聯繫到目前為止我們的聯繫都是非常的密切而且我們的那個態度我們的原則就是說廣結善緣"},{"start":7359.172,"end":7361.955,"text":"致於人員到底是不是夠不夠需要補這個部分我請我們的秘書長來做一個簡單的說明好嗎"},{"start":7378.917,"end":7402.246,"text":"委員長我再先簡單補充一下然後你再一併回應我們在半導體產業上面特別是跟熊本縣那其實也是需要的這種會務交往是不斷的在上升需求也在上升那過去我們包含縣級單位就是我們對他們的縣知識我們的縣市首長出來的時候有的時候在我們的人員不足的時候"},{"start":7402.726,"end":7424.725,"text":"那對方可能會聘請中國的翻譯那未來包含台積電或者是重大的半導體產業那進駐日本那我們很多國會議員去參訪的時候如果我們沒有足夠的人力配置首先你要了解科技產業這些專門用語要會那第二個你要同時又要具備日語的能力那第三個甚至你要具備英文的能力這部分能力上面的配置你怎麼看"},{"start":7426.166,"end":7440.922,"text":"跟委員報告也謝謝委員關心這個日本的業務那其實我們跟日本有一個這個在緣額上面有一個這個所謂的共識就是說雙方派駐這個對方國家的這個外交官的緣額是100名那現在這個我們派駐的這個緣額是還有這個餘裕還沒有到100名"},{"start":7447.449,"end":7472.113,"text":"所以說在這個人力上隨時都有調整的空間那至於剛剛委員提到的就是說有一些這個像臺積電金珠熊本那當然會帶動其他這個不只是這個半導體的業務還有一些這個經貿的交流這個業務也會成長那這個對外管來講當然是一時的這個接待上的負擔會增加但是我們外管假設說對於這個國內來訪的這個首長或者是這個委員的話"},{"start":7476.474,"end":7491.047,"text":"我們都是盡量用自己的同仁或自己的僱員來擔任接待或是傳譯那如果說在人手還有不足的時候我們也會用比如說我們的留學生優秀的留學生來擔任協助這樣子"},{"start":7493.709,"end":7513.324,"text":"那您剛講的那個用這個所謂的中國這個人來當翻譯有時候我是知道說這個日本的這個其他縣市啊有時候他們在會請會聘請一些這個外部的人員包括中國的這個人士來擔任這個中文的傳譯我沒有要針對這件事情在批評我不覺得這是一定對或者是一定錯"},{"start":7514.065,"end":7532.515,"text":"因為其實有時候在觀光上面的這些對話我們不需要去限制哪一個國籍那我今天講的這些人力上面的配置就是希望說在敏感的議題上面比方說在半導體產業上面那可能是希望我們自己國家能夠有專門的傳譯展或者是有外交官直接來進入這樣子的場域裡面"},{"start":7533.095,"end":7555.001,"text":"那這個東西沒有一定對一定錯因為首先我們資源的配置不可能無限但是在資源配置不可能無限的時候我們必須優先順序要把它調整那當然知道美國是我國最主要的盟國甚至軍事上面的援助等等都有那但是其實在地緣政策上面我不敢說它一定是第二啦但是日本的重要性實在是很大那因應這樣子的未來"},{"start":7556.081,"end":7578.861,"text":"第一島鏈也好或者是等等上面的地緣政策上面的安排我們勢必要做調整那當然說這是要對等的狀況之下日方派多少我們就派多少人那我是認為未來的溝通上面包含日方派出我們的增高我方派出他們的增高都必須要討論那還有在防衛上面在安全保障上面其實我們要求的接觸的對象是這層面很廣"},{"start":7579.748,"end":7596.493,"text":"就不是只有外交也不是只有他們的什麼海保廳或者是他們的防衛省那包含他們的警視單位警視廳等等其實那個安全的層面就很多元那就是說說我們各單位包含國防啦那個警政啦或者是海巡這些單位去的時候"},{"start":7597.253,"end":7619.239,"text":"那要有效的對話的時候變成說我們的這些人力的資本的配置就很重要因為說實在話英文大概我們的外交人員大概基本上都會但是日文專業的話他還是需要花時間去培訓那就算是我們很優秀的國人的這些同學日文系畢業的但是要進入政治的領域外交的領域那都還是要長時間的去培育"},{"start":7619.779,"end":7640.011,"text":"在長時間培育包含外交的培育上面我們是真的是希望說對日的部分還是要先想好還有都還沒有提到CPTPP這些先貿易相關的所以經濟部也必須要有這樣的協助所以還是希望說整體的人員配置上面能夠全面性的在做討論那再來我想要請教數位外交的部分部長那我先請部長是"},{"start":7642.588,"end":7657.701,"text":"部長我們在這個媒體上面或者是現在已經不是只有單純的媒體就是社群媒體上面我們看到外交部其實在推特也好或者是現在叫X嘛都有特別在歐洲的部分我是蠻肯定就是說都可以"},{"start":7658.422,"end":7659.482,"text":"這是全中文的,這個是給台灣人看還是給韓國人看?"},{"start":7682.059,"end":7702.694,"text":"那如果我們不仔細看的話應該會認為他是駐台北韓國代表部為了要拉近跟台灣人的距離寫中文貼文但其實這是我們駐韓國代表處的臉書文所以我認為說這個貼文的溝通方向是不正確的就是說我們不需要或許也需要但是就比重上面我們還是以韓國的為主或者是以住在國家為主"},{"start":7703.334,"end":7719.953,"text":"那我認為這個沒有什麼好特別去批判的只是說這個方向可以跟其他的我們駐外的同仁們來稍微談一下說還是以住在國能讓他們多了解我國的這個狀況為主這樣子不知道是不是可以麻煩部長來跟他們來分享一下"},{"start":7720.253,"end":7747.724,"text":"是第一個就是非常謝謝委員的提醒那我們會提醒我們相關的這個外館那我們也鼓勵我們的外館不管是在臉書或者是那個X上面都能夠使用當地的語言或者是至少使用英文那目前大部分的館出都沒有問題那這個特案的話這個個案的話我們來提醒最後還是抱歉那招我再補充一下就好那個關於clearance的部分其實我知道"},{"start":7748.885,"end":7761.702,"text":"因為還是還是因為部長你可能要去接任秘書長了所以我還是要再談一下最近的外交部也好國防部也好有很多泄出的文件那他可能是資安的議題但我都會傾向可能是用最"},{"start":7763.001,"end":7763.662,"text":"外交部長吳釗燮報告"},{"start":7786.721,"end":7807.033,"text":"每一個縣市的這些官員或者是到中央的官員大家要應付的事情大家要處理的事情都很多可是還是要有當責的概念就是說如果這個團結比方說我們的外交幫交的這個平等的這個各個燈號的狀況被洩出去的話總是要有人負責那不管是在考機上面還是要做一些調整"},{"start":7808.814,"end":7809.034,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7828.139,"end":7846.813,"text":"非常謝謝委員如果說有機會的話我再跟委員做比較詳細的說明那針對我們這些公文被流出去的那的確我們也採取了很多的這些必要的這個補救的措施那對於同仁的那個security clearance這個事情我們也都非常的重視沒有處理到相關的這個業務的同仁是不應該去處理這些事情"},{"start":7849.495,"end":7850.496,"text":"接下來請林楚英委員上台質詢"},{"start":7883.275,"end":7885.217,"text":"謝謝主席 主席有請吳部長請吳部長委員好"},{"start":7896.94,"end":7918.991,"text":"部長好部長我今天其實想要用這個短短的幾分鐘時間我們好好來看一下就是有關於歐洲商會市井的這個所謂藐視國會到底洩漏了一個什麼樣的情況那個我想對於對比中國在2023年的反間諜法實施之後當時美國其實也警告就是中國的這個樣子新反間諜法會讓外國企業在中國職業的時候面臨必要的風險"},{"start":7923.954,"end":7943.443,"text":"那麼像這樣的警示一出來之後當然我仍不在中國但是透過媒體報導可以看得出來這幾年中國的經濟下滑的情況是非常嚴重當然跟疫情相關之外也是讓投資卻步那我們都知道這個經濟的活水投資資源是相當重要的"},{"start":7943.843,"end":7968.366,"text":"那尤其是像中國這麼大的一個經濟體外資都跑掉的時候對他來講他所造成的雪崩式的傷害高達82%那以台灣這樣的經濟體我們更需要我們的量體更需要就是外資的協助喔首先我想要救教部長的是4月29號歐洲商會發表的這樣的一個評論在事前你們有得到這樣的訊息嗎"},{"start":7969.918,"end":7970.618,"text":"我相信很多的民眾"},{"start":7998.814,"end":8027.427,"text":"他可能會對美台之間包括美國在台商會等等這些的組織他可能會比較了解但是歐洲商會的成員到底有哪些人又是什麼樣的狀況我相信部長你最了解那麼他們到底有哪些成員那麼這樣的所謂參考意見出去之後他給的這些會員又是哪些人那麼過去他們在台灣有哪些投資或是對於哪些投資動向可不可以說明一下"},{"start":8028.927,"end":8045.834,"text":"如果對我們台灣的投資環境了解的話大家應該可以知道對台灣投資最大的一個團體或國家就是歐洲歐洲是我們台灣最大的外資來源地"},{"start":8046.474,"end":8070.252,"text":"那也因此歐洲商會就是所有來到台灣投資的這些人或者是說跟台灣有做貿易往來的這些人很多大的這些企業那這些都是歐洲商會的這個會員甚至是有些跨域的從其他的那個場域因為他們覺得說可以跟歐洲商會這邊來做生意等等的所以歐洲商會在台灣的那個影響力是非常的龐大"},{"start":8070.993,"end":8090.303,"text":"言下之意就是如果我們要前進歐洲或是歐洲前進台灣的窗口來講的話歐洲商會非常的重要沒有錯但是這樣的訊息一出來之後我們看到的是其實歐洲商會在發佈這樣的建議書之後我們看到行政部門就會說需要虛心啊檢討然後希望積極的做回應但是在野黨就會認為說"},{"start":8091.483,"end":8103.589,"text":"這是不是後面又有誰在潑髒水或抹黑我特別去找了一下我也承認在過去我其實都把歐洲商會的這個建議書可能就只是看了一下新聞標題但是我特別去找了一下過去從2021年2022年到2023年甚至於2024年他也都有發表相關的建議書對於台灣他從2021年的關心台灣的"},{"start":8116.356,"end":8139.088,"text":"推動所謂創新再來2022年是希望放寬商務邊境的限制2023年他希望台灣在再生能源國產化當中要找到平衡點那麼今年呢他更是從台灣的人才以及跟國際的接軌以及簽訂所謂跟歐盟之間跟台灣之間的雙邊貿易來提出建言所以"},{"start":8139.688,"end":8161.856,"text":"我想要救教部長的是說像這樣的一個歐洲商會他所提出來的建言過去一直以來都是屬於比較是建設性的提議或者是在這個資商上面的提議或者是給台灣一個跟歐洲做接軌不論是在貿易面或者是在政策面但是"},{"start":8162.316,"end":8166.741,"text":"很少見是不是出現像這樣的類似警訊式那什麼樣的狀況會讓他認為必須要發出警訊式"},{"start":8171.549,"end":8197.345,"text":"我的印象裡面是沒有這些類似的這些建言那不管是European Chamber of Commerce或者是American Chamber of Commerce他們所做的這些建議書他們不只是建議我們台灣甚至是也會回頭過去建議美國的政府歐洲的政府在處理跟台灣的這個貿易議題經濟投資的這個議題的時候應該要採取什麼樣更好的這些措施所以這些對我們台灣來講都是很重要"},{"start":8197.865,"end":8221.924,"text":"那他們針對那個藐視國會這件事情提出這些警訊的話那的確這個是我第一次看到那我也覺得說我們應該加以重視因為對他們來講他們每天所接觸到的情資資訊一定都感受得到這一屆的新國會當中以現在的狀況底下的話在野黨要把它提出那麼以人數上面做表決是一定會通過"},{"start":8222.685,"end":8236.713,"text":"所以他們才會趕快的因為我們都知道投資的佈局不是今天投下去明天可以收回來很多在規劃中的佈局要改變也需要一點時間所以這顯然他是在預示也許在下半年的時候歐洲對於台灣的這些投資會有所改變那如果是這樣的情況底下的話部長有沒有積極的跟歐洲商會或是相關的單位來做溝通以及了解那回饋又是什麼"},{"start":8252.755,"end":8273.273,"text":"這個部分因為並不是以我們外交部作為跟他們聯繫的最主要的窗口因為他們的聯繫主要窗口應該是我們跟經濟相關的比如像我們國發會或者是經濟部等等的那我到目前為止是沒有接到相關的這些訊息但是如果說他們有這個關心的話我們的行政部門甚至是我們的國會應該加以討論"},{"start":8274.862,"end":8286.745,"text":"因為像這樣子就是歐盟的其他的國家在看到尤其是駐台的相關的大使或是代表或代表處等等應該也會同樣的讀到這一篇報導那麼對他們來說他們也會擔憂他們在台投資的企業或企業主因為這樣的一個法案通過之後不只是針對台灣的官員連民間人士都可能因為不一樣的議題被找來國會"},{"start":8303.61,"end":8307.854,"text":"那如果是這樣的時候這樣的說明就非常的重要因為我們都知道他們如果預期限的國會就是會過關的時候他們對於台灣相關的投資可能會就此打住所以我也建議外交部雖然說這個主要的主責單位一定是在跟國發會或是相關的經濟部門但是外交部必須要給予一定的協助"},{"start":8327.217,"end":8355.913,"text":"我想我們協助是沒有問題但是會有這個藐視國會罪的起源並不是我們的行政部而是國會所以如果國會這邊沒有加以重視沒有加以檢討的話無論我們行政部門多努力那這些都是枉然甚至是會跟他們提出一個錯誤的一個印象就是說這個事情是不會通過也不會影響到他們那萬一如果通過了影響到他們的時候其實我們行政部門的那個Credibility都會有問題"},{"start":8356.718,"end":8381.753,"text":"好所以說也只能就是讓這個我要怎麼說呢有時候站在這裡對這樣做這樣的質詢是一種無奈啦但是我也很希望透過這樣的澄清能夠至少我們希望在立法院當中一切是依法論法但是法規的通過真的有的時候影響的不是只有現在"},{"start":8382.193,"end":8383.113,"text":"目前我們對於爭取CPTPP當中有哪些具體的動作或者是做法呢?"},{"start":8405.329,"end":8424.105,"text":"有關於CPTPP的事情我們國內的這個努力最主要是在我們的OTM那我們外交部這邊作為協助的機構因為我們有外管那我們也定期的做內部的這個檢討看看我們外管如何來加強跟當地國的這個互動或者是溝通那我們也去鼓勵這個當地國"},{"start":8425.706,"end":8450.125,"text":"跟我們做這些非正式因為我們還沒有加進去所以是必須要做非正式的諮商那已經有很多的國家開始跟我們做這些非正式的諮商而且也都非常的順利那大部分的國家對於我們的準備的程度也都感到非常的滿意因為我們追尋的標準是CPTPP的高標準跟有些國家是不一樣的"},{"start":8450.845,"end":8475.339,"text":"那所以在這種情形之下我相信我們台灣是會受到很多國家的這個支持那我想這些比較重要的這個CPTPP的這些會員國對我們台灣的這個申請都都表達一個非常正面的這個態度那我們會持續的來努力的那畢竟是有一些比較比較小的國家或者是說跟中國比較親近的國家那這個是我們必須要去加倍努力的地方"},{"start":8475.845,"end":8492.382,"text":"好 本席希望在這邊提出這個訊息是因為呢我認為這個在所有的這樣的不確定的訊息底下那麼外交部在做一些努力當中的過程當中如果有好的新的進度也希望能夠讓國人知道好 一定謝謝委員謝謝接下來請羅志強委員上台質詢"},{"start":8505.717,"end":8506.421,"text":"主席有請部長請部長"},{"start":8517.936,"end":8535.363,"text":"陸委員好部長好媒體報導上個月23號外交部三樓女廁窗台有女職員疑似意圖輕生那我知道外交部已經啟動員工協助方案提供必要協助那請問部長經了解這是個人因素還是職場上有什麼狀況呢"},{"start":8538.124,"end":8538.825,"text":"其實我非常認同部長講"},{"start":8561.54,"end":8574.83,"text":"外交工作真的是壓力非常大也非常辛苦最近一直發生很多遺憾的事件比如說大阪處蘇啟臣處長的事件還有巴西聖保羅辦事處王之化組長的事件"},{"start":8578.092,"end":8600.807,"text":"我這邊也是拜託我們部長雖然您也準備調單位但是希望能夠讓外交部真的要體恤我們外交同仁的壓力能夠營造一個友善跟健全的環境讓他們能夠無後顧之憂為國家拚外交但是這邊我可能就要請教一下我們的部長"},{"start":8602.188,"end":8626.341,"text":"在那個大阪處的事件當中那個時候其實我自己曾經站出來幫蘇啟臣處長抱不平當時其實我對我們的駐日代表謝長廷先生有一點是不太滿意的因為他在大阪處發生事情的時候站出來說如果大阪有錯大阪就應該要認錯那這句話出來之後實際上你已經知道我在網路上其實比較注意網路的整個輿論"},{"start":8627.702,"end":8643.999,"text":"那一句話出來之後整個的所有的指責的風向就開始去攻擊大阪處了那最後造成這個憾事那你知道後來發生什麼事情嗎我批評七郎亭說你不該把責任推卸給這個大阪處你知道發生什麼事情嗎"},{"start":8645.769,"end":8660.46,"text":"姜亭告我啦他告我就說這個是誹謗他就說我批評他謝責是不對他的論點大概說大阪處的事務部分不歸他管所以沒有謝責的問題那後來告了我這個大阪處之後他第一"},{"start":8660.86,"end":8684.354,"text":"第一審就是第一個官司告書了今天馬上又告我第二次也是用同樣一件大阪處的事情告我那這就已經有所謂的爛訴爛送的問題了但是沒關係我要問的是一件事就是說我們第一個我們駐日代表到底對大阪處是不是有所謂的一些監督管轄之權呢"},{"start":8685.95,"end":8711.466,"text":"這些都有模糊的空間就是說大阪的轄區基本上是應該由大阪的這個地方來我跟部長提醒一下就這兩個官司我都贏啦所以某種程度法官不認為說我認為他卸責是有問題的也是某種程度法院認證但是沒有關係我想請教一個我一直好奇很多年因為一個官司告兩次說真的其實蠻浪費司法資源我很好奇就在外交部"},{"start":8712.147,"end":8717.299,"text":"我們的駐日代表在告一般民眾的時候那時候是一般民眾的時候那請問他訴訟費誰出阿"},{"start":8722.508,"end":8748.84,"text":"不是外交部接下來我想請教您下一個問題沒關係我們再請外交部再給我一個資料關於訴訟的時候到底是怎麼樣來經費使用就外交的同仁遇到個人訴訟的時候怎麼樣處理訴訟經費我想請教部長下一個問題我們蔡總統本月就要卸任了到目前為止沒有出訪的消息尤其是過去美國上一次過去美國是什麼時候"},{"start":8750.965,"end":8773.88,"text":"去年3月底4月初換言之其實我就發現有一個比較特殊的現象就較於我們的部長過去陳水扁總統跟馬英九總統卸任前的一年內都有過境美國陳水扁總統是在卸任前什麼時候過境美國你知道嗎"},{"start":8775.607,"end":8793.607,"text":"二零零八年一月然後他過境美國安克拉治馬總統是二零一六年三月過境休斯頓洛杉磯為自己執政八年外交做成績總結我很好奇為什麼卸任前一年我們蔡英文總統沒有所謂的過境美國的計畫"},{"start":8796.734,"end":8822.143,"text":"回答委員的這個垂詢就是有關於總統的那個出訪必須要搭配不同的這個考量我這樣因為我執行時間快到了做一個很快的一個詢問就是說我認為蔡總統一直標榜這台美關係史上最佳嘛實際上應該正常來講安排一個過境美國應該是有助於他來去做他的外交總結這您認同吧"},{"start":8824.174,"end":8850.442,"text":"這個並不是完全正統因為外交有很多的這些不同的層面我跟部長說陳水扁總統卸任的那一年的1月去訪問然後我們的馬總統是3月去訪問但一年內我覺得蔡總統都完全沒有訪問終究難免讓大家會擔心是外交部不夠努力呢還是蔡總統不想出去還是說美國方面出現什麼樣的變數這一點我也拜託部長真的"},{"start":8852.222,"end":8853.543,"text":"陳水扁一年卸任前去訪問馬英九卸任前去訪問蔡英文就是沒有又稱台美關係最好"},{"start":8882.186,"end":8886.83,"text":"這一點社會觀﹖大家對於我們的外交信心還是要關注一下以上謝謝"},{"start":8895.29,"end":8914.484,"text":"接下來請鄭天才委員鄭天才鄭天才委員不在請鄭振淺鄭振淺鄭振淺委員不在請顏寬恒顏寬恒顏寬恒委員不在請王美惠王美惠王美惠委員不在請邱志偉邱志偉邱志偉委員不在請楊瓊英楊瓊英楊瓊英委員不在請賴士寶賴士寶賴士寶委員不在請蔡易瑜蔡易瑜蔡易瑜委員不在請黃仁黃仁黃仁委員不在請羅明才"},{"start":8924.631,"end":8933.005,"text":"羅明財委員不在已登記質詢的委員除不在場外均已發言完畢報告及詢答結束"},{"start":8934.264,"end":8958.26,"text":"本日會議有黃澤委員、林益君委員提出書面質詢請列入記錄並刊登公報請相關機關以書面於兩週內答覆本日委員口頭質詢未及答覆的部分或要求補充資料者亦請相關單位以書面於兩週內提供委員另約定期限者從其所定本日會議到此結束散會謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"15874","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15874","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/f826c2e4afc302dde1784ed6585ee25e6c0396a52a6677963be8d109af184be4a3bc599907f341985ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會、勞動部就「公共工程職業安全衛生改善暨降低職業災害辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預算凍結案計7案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-02","start_time":"2024-05-02T08:31:16+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-02T12:09:59+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":13123,"委員發言時間":"08:31:16 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那我們現在請吳主委來做報告"},{"start":1990.891,"end":2018.747,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士、各位先生感謝大會安排兵會今天列席貴委員會向主席及各位委員先進報告公共工程職業安全衛生改善暨降低職業災害辦理情形以及兵會113年度單位預算凍結案辦理的情形"},{"start":2020.424,"end":2035.201,"text":"有關公共工程職業安全衛生改善暨降低職業災害辦理情形方面．便會為確保公共工程職業安全除要求應遵守"},{"start":2036.58,"end":2060.405,"text":"職案相關規定外．委員會亦要求各機關合理編列職案相關的費用．而運用相關的履歷資料．請各機關慎選廠商．並強化工地職案管理及分級加強查核各面向．引導各機關能夠貫徹執行．以減少災害的發生"},{"start":2065.796,"end":2087.222,"text":"我們一方面要求各機關依據施工風險合理量化編列職安費用方面。機關要求規劃設計單位依照工程規模及特性,編制安全衛生圖書及規範,並納入交標文件。"},{"start":2089.534,"end":2106.898,"text":"同時也請機關應用職災資料作為選商的參考．並會修正公共工程施工廠商及人員履歷應用於政府採購參考手冊提供各機關在辦理採購評選的時候將投標廠商對於以往職安資料納入評選項目"},{"start":2116.797,"end":2140.006,"text":"則由的廠商來承攬工程．並與勞動部借接職業災害資料．與系統建置警示訊息．我們預定在113年來完成。另外在強化統合協調機制．及落實工地治安管理方面．我們強化工程團隊監督確認及統合協調機制．"},{"start":2146.274,"end":2172.694,"text":"我們強化各團隊成員之間必須相互勾結連結及監督確認機制並由工程主辦機關及專案管理廠商或監察單位負責統合協調各廠商必須落實執行各項安全的工作另外落實執行工地安全衛生管理方面"},{"start":2174.261,"end":2200.515,"text":"建造單位必須確實辦理職安檢驗停留點的確認以落實執行工地安全衛生管理另外加強查核職安潛在及高風險案件並與勞動部建立橫向溝通通報機制同時我們訂定防範施工中橋樑"},{"start":2203.817,"end":2228.711,"text":"翻錄措施要求施工單位預支樑上去之後馬上要加以固定那麼來確保安全的這個施工那麼釣索橋樑設計施工及維護這段也應該加以注意我們已經訂定相關的規定請各機關配合辦理"},{"start":2229.949,"end":2246.467,"text":"重大職災案件不得參選金主獎。我們規定各廠商必須確保這個工地安全才能參加我們金主獎的這個獎勵同時我們持續辦理職安教育訓練"},{"start":2247.776,"end":2271.032,"text":"本會對出任公職人員、土木工程類科、實務訓練、每年均請勞動部具有實務經驗之講師講授職業安全相關法規矩災害案例等課題．提升相關從業人員對於工地職安管理的觀念．截至112年度"},{"start":2273.291,"end":2299.034,"text":"免費已辦理60場實務訓練共計3664人次參加執行結果方面經過努力的結果大家一起來把它防範我們在公共工程重大職災死亡人數已經有逐漸的下降趨勢但是我們還是以零職災為目標來努力"},{"start":2301.82,"end":2318.575,"text":"另外職安缺失查核扣點數也有逐年下降的趨勢我們將持續的來改善第二個我們113年度單位預算凍結方面典會113年度單位預算凍結案總共有7案"},{"start":2327.045,"end":2345.092,"text":"都已經依照規定提交疏運報告給大院來審查。所列各項的凍結案件預算均為配合施設目標而有必要辦理的業務。我們栽數重點如下。"},{"start":2348.308,"end":2352.952,"text":"一、持續辦理採購聯緣訓練．充實採購專業知識．強化採購集合管考作業．追蹤為採用電子報價值機關．參訊推廣專班並持續宣導。第二、積極協助業者開拓國際市場。"},{"start":2372.426,"end":2400.201,"text":"三、落實強化機關資料傳輸韌性提升資料傳輸安全四、持續追蹤管考工程流標情形協助機關解決流標問題提出因應對策五、建立公共工程生態檢核管理機制及強化措施六、從源頭管理防止閒置公共設施的產生"},{"start":2403.147,"end":2414.343,"text":"結餘良好之職業安全管理可減少工地的災害避免造成勞工個人家庭及社會之傷害．並會將協同各機關持續與勞動部共同合作"},{"start":2418.749,"end":2446.341,"text":"督導工程團隊確實執行各項職安工作並強化統合協調機制落實工地職安管理降低工地職業災害朝工地臨職災目標來努力以優質公共建設為民眾創造美好的生活另外秉會各項預算均需配合國家發展推動為業務實際需要"},{"start":2448.462,"end":2465.872,"text":"有關大院決議事項與主項檢討進行．懇請各位委員支持．並同意相關經會之動之．以立各項業務之推動．以上報告進行主席及各位委員．頂力支持協助並會議主教。謝謝"},{"start":2474.287,"end":2478.573,"text":"現在繼續請勞動部職業安全衛生署周署長報告。"},{"start":2488.669,"end":2507.36,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生、早安。今天只能代表勞動部列席會員會感謝各位委員對於公共工程職業安全衛生的關心公共工程向來受到各界關注而且有引領民間工程增進營建品質及安全的角色為了降低公共工程職業災害"},{"start":2508.895,"end":2537.694,"text":"這以上是本部的資深重點．以下就今天的議題進行重點報告．敬請各位委員不吝指教有關強化公共工程安全衛生的作為部分．勞動部除了要求各檢察機構加強公共工程的監督檢查之外．我們也建立跨機關的檢查平臺．積聚各部會合作．來引領公共工程降低職災的風險．有關相關的重點作為有什麼七項簡單跟各位委員報告第一項是我們加強公共工程的監督檢查"},{"start":2538.715,"end":2551.217,"text":"我們有要求各狼狼獎的機構平時跟假日也要加強公共工程的凍害稽查之外也應該會同中央直轄市的工程主管機關實施聯合的查核重要工程對於違反"},{"start":2554.476,"end":2580.144,"text":"勞動檢查法及職業安全法規等等我們會研議停工及法案處分。那我們也建立了職場檢災跨機關的合作平臺本部有邀請到交通部、經濟部、內政部、國防部、教育部、財政部、農業部及工程會共同成立的職場檢災跨部會平臺定期召開會議研議各樣相關的重大的事故然後希望能夠精進事故安全的作為"},{"start":2581.414,"end":2598.693,"text":"那針對地方的部分地方公共工程我們也要求勞動假機構跟地方政府配合不定期召開檢災的檢討會議來促進地方工程的那個工程的那個施工團隊的那個安全衛生管理的機制同時我們也訂立一個加強公共工程職業安全衛生管理的做要點這個要點指導機關將"},{"start":2601.155,"end":2622.428,"text":"公共工程的設計、建造、施工等安全衛生注意事項能夠遵御翔素要求納入契約採購加上管理之外,我們也規定勞動檢查機構必須配合中央、直轄市來辦理聯合稽查。除此之外,我們也訂立了一個營造工程風險評估的技術指引,我們來協助工程設計者及施工者在"},{"start":2623.709,"end":2645.476,"text":"除了要落實政府採購法第4條第1項以及我們食安法第5條的規定在規劃設計階段就要做風險評估來消明最優先的風險除此之外我們也加強了重大工程的施工安全查核機制那本部有要求針對國家重大工程如果是屬於我們勞動檢查法規定的危機工作場所"},{"start":2645.976,"end":2664.178,"text":"必須在實施審查會議的時候,邀請工程職業機關及設計單位列席,來說明在工程規劃設計的時候已經消明了主要風險,那相關的剩餘風險如何傳遞給施工單位做進一步的掌控。如果審查通過的時候,才可以使勞工進一步作業。同時我們也建立了公共工程"},{"start":2665.62,"end":2680.533,"text":"主管機關施工安全的選上機制,誠如工程會主委的說明,我們勞動部有監視相關資料,也跟工程會橫向聯繫,把相關的事業單位資料,還有優良的資料,也在我們網路上做進一步的公開。"},{"start":2681.863,"end":2703.144,"text":"除此之外,我們勞動部也受到工程會的支持,我們有辦理一個公共工程金安獎,今年已經辦到第18屆,這個是本人每年辦的優良工程的金安獎選拔,我們要樹立公共工程的安全衛生的學習標竿典範,那這個獲獎單位的相關的做法,我們也在我們官網做揭露,讓各個工程能夠互相學習。"},{"start":2704.161,"end":2724.54,"text":"那針對公共工程部分由於這幾年來公共工程在各機關各主管機關的努力下推動減災策略已經略有有些成效我們104年的中央實災死亡49人到去年降到已經降到35%左右那我相信我們會繼續在努力那針對營造工程打擊的部分跟各位誠實報告"},{"start":2726.001,"end":2752.893,"text":"臺灣事實上在營造業部分,最弱職災相對是偏高的,比起其他國家我們將會降到7成,那我相信這部分是我們的弱點,所以我們勞動部今年也特別在對最弱的部分,我們訂立一個營造作業打擊年,我們希望今年的營造作業的最弱的災害能夠比去年至少降低30%,那這要透過各工程單位的互相配合跟支持。不管是公共工程、民間工程,我們都認為最弱案件要做很好的預防,我想也跟這個委員做報告。"},{"start":2753.593,"end":2779.805,"text":"最後我想公共公安事故不僅會造成勞工的傷亡更是離家者家屬一輩子的傷痛那也會延待影響家庭的生計跟社會的一些負擔那我想有公共工程有時候也會造成公共安全的重大事故的發生所以勞動部會持續透過監督、檢查、輔導、宣導以及跟跨部會合作的方式來讓我們的公共工程的安全衛生能夠提升到最好的進步"},{"start":2780.805,"end":2806.101,"text":"以上報告,敬請各位委員指教,也祝主席、各位委員身體健康,萬事如意。謝謝。現在要進行詢討。先宣告以下事項。詢討時間出席委員6加1分鐘,列席委員4加1分鐘。委員發言登記於11點之前截止。"},{"start":2807.284,"end":2824.88,"text":"各委員如有提案請於10點前提出以便議事人員會診暫定10點30分休息10分鐘中午原則上不休息現在請登記第1位委員林國成委員發言"},{"start":2836.223,"end":2839.505,"text":"兩位所長說實在的昨天是勞動節今天感謝召委關心勞工排了今天的一個專案報告"},{"start":2863.263,"end":2878.915,"text":"說實在勞工是被漠視的一群可是在這裡今天召委可以排這個基本上我們是感為敬佩但是我說實在的吳主委啊"},{"start":2880.56,"end":2895.274,"text":"在公共工程裡面你有幾個作為啊我是加以肯定的就是勞工啊有時候整個你主管全國不是只有公共工程"},{"start":2896.195,"end":2917.45,"text":"完全政府機關所屬的合約你就是主管機關但是這幾年有一個進步什麼進步呢公共工程委員會他去把合約的換本把薪資跟公安這個部分把它列進去這是對勞工的一個規範"},{"start":2920.222,"end":2937.658,"text":"完了以後才署長去做勞檢的執行所以規範很重要所以主委你確確實實是我少數啊在立法院裡面較為尊敬的為什麼規範勝過於檢查規範完善自然啊"},{"start":2944.071,"end":2968.179,"text":"問題的發生就會少你等了檢查以後發生的事情以後那這個職安自然就會發生所以在這裡啊雖然我們吳主委沒有續任但是我也覺得很奇怪我個人意見啊現在政府怪怪的好人不留起來不好的他就塞來了所以我相信吳主委"},{"start":2969.139,"end":2994.489,"text":"你未來在這個部分我相信你也扮演極為重要角色希望繼續對公共工程的合約的規範以及你的經驗要多加以在這裡提供意見但是我這個人是講究感情看到你這麼好的要離開吳主委一分鐘給你你有什麼感覺這幾年對於這個問題你有什麼感覺"},{"start":2999.729,"end":3013.379,"text":"首先,非常謝謝林委員對工程會的支持跟指教。從林委員上任之後,一直對扁會的存在與否也非常的關心。我們非常感謝。"},{"start":3014.48,"end":3029.393,"text":"公共工程的建設從勞安到這個建設的進行都需要從這個工程會以及各機關共同來這個努力才能夠來達成"},{"start":3030.987,"end":3058.86,"text":"那麼當然我很佩服剛剛委員看出問題從源頭那麼就要規定清楚那麼加上落實執行才能夠達到目標我想每一個勞工都是我們的同胞都是我們的人民都是我們建設的一份子我們都應該要給予來關心來照顧讓他不要這樣發生不要這樣讓他們的生命受到威脅這是我們應該努力的事情謝謝"},{"start":3060.701,"end":3088.295,"text":"主委還是謝謝你啦剛才我們有一個共識就是規範跟執行有了規範才有辦法去執行那執行這是被動的但是規範非常重要所以合約裡面你有這種比較先前的管理規劃這一點我確確實實對於我們工程會我確確實實是比較較為肯定那個署長我想請教你一下"},{"start":3089.815,"end":3113.744,"text":"我們說實在的當然因為這個合約的規劃主管機關是吳主委是工程會但是檢查機關變成是你現在有產生一個檢查有兩個步驟六都跟台灣省就我們勞動部也有自己的檢查機構但是六都你現在還是委託勞動局"},{"start":3116.392,"end":3137.513,"text":"勞動局他們在做檢查這個部分你們採取如何舉例在台北市勞動局在做檢查的時候你們基於這些督導單位跟委辦單位你這個部分你對於整個處理的部分你如何去處理"},{"start":3138.594,"end":3163.625,"text":"謝謝委員提的指教那我們勞動部針對六都部份是授權勞動檢查機構實施勞動檢查那他檢查的方法程序標準是跟我們中央是一模一樣的那委員關心是我們如何督導這些地方檢查機構按照標準來進行我們每年除了考評之外我們重大工程會做聯合稽查那有發生重大事故的時候我們他實在的處理情形我要報告我們治安署做最後核定所以我們是採取"},{"start":3164.525,"end":3167.948,"text":"另外一個我要提供,提供兩位所長,也就是日本的參考資料,你們一定要根據我所了解,臺北市的公共工程,臺北市的建築案,"},{"start":3189.309,"end":3204.36,"text":"﹗"},{"start":3204.5,"end":3207.362,"text":"最後一個我想請教署長營建業為什麼會這麼嚴重?"},{"start":3230.441,"end":3247.547,"text":"我跟你講喔,依照新加坡、日本、英國來講,他們的職安只有40%喔,非常之低喔,但是我們的營建業在這裡是有70欸。署長你最清楚,這個部分你應該要怎麼樣去防範,怎麼樣去做。"},{"start":3250.055,"end":3272.283,"text":"謝謝委員我們營造業的職災死亡是全國的50%70%是墜落災害是所有的職災裡面是70%是墜落的部分所以我們認為說臺灣其實某種程度是層層轉包造成我們管理上的缺失所以不管是企業上的要求跟現場的監督檢查不能只查大包下包的人有沒有做好安全衛生的管理跟措施也是我們的重點所以我們今年除了針對"},{"start":3274.204,"end":3276.325,"text":"最後我還是用30秒特別祝福我們吳主委長命百歲然後永遠快樂當然有機會回來找我們召集人 召集人會請客我們會作陪"},{"start":3300.575,"end":3321.312,"text":"好不好那最後我真的還要代替所有勞工啊拜託我們的規劃很重要有了規劃要執行也比較好執行所以公共工程裡面主管合約的規範拜託主委卸任以前要把這個把它規劃下去一新知二"},{"start":3321.892,"end":3322.593,"text":"林委員發言完畢現在請黃建豪委員發言"},{"start":3359.317,"end":3359.637,"text":"主委好"},{"start":3376.465,"end":3391.326,"text":"主委一開始我也是要延續我們前面林國成委員對您的肯定我想這幾年下來我想公共工程會相對來講真的是一個比較穩定的一個單位我想因為工程會也牽涉到很多的這個工程面的問題我們當然希望說"},{"start":3392.708,"end":3421.583,"text":"像這個主委這種性格穩定有專業的人才應該留用當然新政府有新政府的考量選擇了另外一位這個有一些爭議的人來當你的下一位的工程會主委但我想說今天主委其實我剛剛提到了包含說我們鄰國省委也非常肯定主委過去這些年的表現那主委你有沒有什麼樣的期許跟這個經驗傳承可以透過這個地方來提供給我們新的主委主委"},{"start":3424.226,"end":3439.079,"text":"謝謝委員的指教我想在我們公共工程的推動方面每一個環節都相當重要尤其是剛剛委員提到有從源頭的管理公共工程委員會有一"},{"start":3439.699,"end":3457.505,"text":"一個角色就是扮演全面的規劃推動那麼每一個環節就要從源頭就要規定包括預算的編列設計到建造施工那麼我們會把這樣的一個做法會讓未來的這個主任委員跟我們團隊會繼續的努力下去謝謝"},{"start":3459.686,"end":3473.657,"text":"主委我想你把一些規範建立起來後續接手的人如果不要胡搞瞎搞的話我想這個相對還是能夠去穩定下去啦那談到這個規範的部分我也注意到工程會最近推出了所謂的檢探的這個新的規範"},{"start":3474.958,"end":3488.392,"text":"那這個是所有的這個電子採購網都要新增所謂減碳的欄位,要求說部會在這個興建工程的時候要預估這個碳含量,因為我想接下來這個未來的碳稅也好,未來這個"},{"start":3490.074,"end":3493.596,"text":"因為從目前的這個網站填寫看起來他並沒有說這個要求要填寫多少的這個碳含量就他寫多少"},{"start":3520.087,"end":3545.195,"text":"隨便他寫還是有個規範但有沒有實質的這個方向還是說只要有寫的他就能夠通過了謝謝委員的主調有關這個生態減核能源減碳這個部分在公共營建工程方面他佔有很大的一個部分那他必須從設計規劃設計到施工全生命週期都要去兼顧"},{"start":3546.115,"end":3572.117,"text":"那現在工程會本來生態檢核生態檢核方面已經早就有這個規定那麼目前我們是先提醒各機關預備現在一個規劃那麼做準備未來會配合相關的部門他們規定減碳的相關的一些規定的這個百分比之後再會進入到實質的這個執行"},{"start":3574.139,"end":3593.536,"text":"那特別跟委員報告公共工程的這個進行不是只有施工階段,必須從設計規劃就要開始,就要去把它注意到這個材料工程的這個運用,那麼才能兼顧到後面的減碳的這個部分,必須要重頭來管理。"},{"start":3594.611,"end":3613.511,"text":"主委因為碳排這問題我想所有的尤其是台灣現在有很多的營建工程營建工程它本身它本來的碳排就非常非常的高所以我想問就是說再次想確認一下所以目前來講現在所謂的採購的部分像填寫碳排的這個碳含量的部分是它只要有填就可以呢還是它是要有一個實際的計畫"},{"start":3615.393,"end":3641.19,"text":"才能夠通過這個網站的設定目前是由他自己來做一個主動的一個來填報那未來就會詳細的規範未來是透過什麼單位?經濟部還是環境部?還是還沒有討論?他們會有一個這個詳細的規定之後我們這邊就會落實到規範裡面進去來要求處刑那這個期程是由你們來訂的還是由其他的"},{"start":3642.526,"end":3651.501,"text":"負責這個所謂碳排業務的單位來定?由他們來定,我們就來組成。好,主委謝謝齁。那接下來我要就教一下我們勞安署,我們署長。"},{"start":3653.683,"end":3674.766,"text":"委員好,署長我想這個我看到一些新聞啊,那包含說我們現在因為職災勞工的重建的服務量可能在各個地方相對比較不夠那過去財產法人職業災害預防及重建中心編了2500萬元要在我們高雄來成立所謂的職業健康及重建之家"},{"start":3675.567,"end":3697.225,"text":"那我要提到說過去其實在其他城市有所謂的職災職能復健的專責醫院跟這個職災職能復健的強化的訓練機構那到底專責醫院訓練機構跟這個所謂重建之家他彼此之間的這個權責跟這個架構有什麼差別可以請署長說明一下謝謝委員的指教這個我們這個"},{"start":3698.286,"end":3723.672,"text":"整個職災落空的重建的機制在110年新的災害法令進來之後我們有指定了17家職業災害整治專責醫院還有32家職能復健專責醫院還有其他工作強化中心那這個重建這家是我們新成立這個草原法人職災預防重建中心想要做個示範的模式希望我們這個中心能夠針對比較特殊個案做一些"},{"start":3724.352,"end":3744.864,"text":"整體上復建的一些事辦,事辦的結果再不會讓到我們剛剛講的那個強化中心或者是說是地方的職能復健專責醫院,那這個從業之家目前還在規劃中應該是9月份才可以上路,那過程中我們不會再不斷的檢討,有關跟我們診治醫院跟我們職能復健醫院跟工作強化中心的三方三個"},{"start":3745.845,"end":3770.928,"text":"三個機構的整合跟協調我們會做細緻的討論讓這個能夠順利的上路那這個重新執交未來只會一個城市有嗎還是各地都會來辦理相關的業務報告委員我們會先做示範那我們會主張是有比較有私人災害比較多的勞工為優先的地方那我們為什麼起步高雄因為高雄是重工業而高雄職業災害私人的人數也相對比較多所以我們先選那個地方做示範好署長那我們看下一張"},{"start":3772.129,"end":3792.407,"text":"這近三年所謂勞工職災保險現金寄付人次裡面你可以看到每年看下來其實六都裡面比較多人申請職災的人是在臺北跟台中啊他佔的比例相對比較高所以剛剛署長提到說高雄在你的這個統計裡面好像你覺得比較多所以你要先以高雄做示範區"},{"start":3793.268,"end":3803.793,"text":"但是以看這個數字來講的話,其實臺北跟台中申請職災保險的這個心理檢測員是相對比其他地方也來得多,但第一名臺北,第二名台中,第三名高雄,這是這幾年下來統計數據長這樣子,所以"},{"start":3806.831,"end":3823.266,"text":"這個像這個這個你剛剛講那個之家齁這個職業這個職能訓練之家齁跟後續的這個會面的規劃包含說我們的職災專責醫院臺中4家臺北2家那高雄有5家齁所以在比例上面是不是在資源分配上會有點不均衡"},{"start":3824.259,"end":3852.655,"text":"謝謝委員提醒其實我們的專責醫院、復健醫院都是要讓老公可靜靜性的那臺中市現在是5家那有關需要的部分只要醫院有可以我們也可以互相做調查來增加但是醫療量能的部分也要做一些平衡性的檢討那跟委員回報這個這個是整體的指摘起步包括死亡、失能跟傷病那我們剛剛跟委員回報的是失能部分確實是高雄市比較偏多的那未來臺北、臺中要不要增加我們看事辦的效果怎麼樣會再做後面的整體考量"},{"start":3852.995,"end":3865.466,"text":"主要目的是讓受災勞工他能夠得到重建的資源跟一些迅速回到職場這是我們施政的目標有些委員提醒好,署長謝謝謝謝黃建豪委員發言接下來邀請李坤澤召委發言謝謝陳書業委員請吳主委還有周署長"},{"start":3881.71,"end":3882.591,"text":"主委你好,署長你好。"},{"start":3893.118,"end":3911.373,"text":"勞工在我們去年勞動部的相關的這樣的一個資料顯示全國有1039萬的人是投保勞保那也代表著有千萬的勞工勞工最重要的當然我們在過去幾年勞動部"},{"start":3912.594,"end":3937.206,"text":"有推動相關的一些政策出步也有一些成果例如在勞保的政府撥補以及國家最終支付責任的這樣的一個宣誓讓勞保的這樣的一個信心的穩定提升不少當然我們對於相關的最低工資法在過去幾年我們也逐年的"},{"start":3938.706,"end":3963.411,"text":"調漲相關的基本的這樣的一個工資那也確定了最低工資法另外我們也針對勞工的職業災害我們也進行了勞工職業災害保險及保護法就是希望對勞工的就業環境以及相關的受到職業災害的時候對於他相關的津貼補助有一定更制度化的這樣的一個保障"},{"start":3963.951,"end":3977.599,"text":"那對於它私能或者是這樣的一個在職業重建或者是社會重建也更具有制度的這樣的一個建立不過我在這邊還是要針對勞動部尤其是職安署我對於職災的這樣的一個狀況"},{"start":3985.799,"end":4003.663,"text":"我始終是不滿意的因為每一個勞工代表的是每一個家庭最重要的經濟及生活的支柱那我們來看我們的職災一直是沒有辦法有效的降低我們看職安署2022年勞動檢查的統計聯報2022年職災死亡是320人"},{"start":4013.84,"end":4025.625,"text":"凍結業佔了156人這個我要提醒署長跟這個主委我們的重大職災凍結業還是佔大多數那我們看到凍結業佔了156人是佔了48.7是近5年來最高"},{"start":4030.765,"end":4043.491,"text":"中到職災的類型中,墜落及滾落佔了48%,剛才署長也提到今年是所謂的墜落打擊年,已經要成立一個墜落打擊點來處理相關的職災的這樣一個墜落的狀況。"},{"start":4047.233,"end":4070.839,"text":"另外倒塌及崩線佔了9%那重大的職障礙他的原因分析我們來看44%是不安全的動作跟設備兼具另外21%是不安全的設備31%是不安全的動作那因為不安全的設備或動作的罹災人數是高達96%署長我必須要提醒我們來看"},{"start":4072.578,"end":4095.723,"text":"剛才提到職渣的死亡人數我們來看失能的人數因為受傷失能我們的頻率是持續的增加那這也代表勞工深陷在危險的工作環境當中2022年職渣的失能人次是累計達到13000人次"},{"start":4100.158,"end":4105.864,"text":"2018到2022年我們的失能傷害的頻率由1.27提升到1.49 署長你說明一下為什麼我們的職災"},{"start":4111.021,"end":4133.857,"text":"沒有辦法有效的降低,死亡跟相關的受傷失能的人數還是居高不下來,說明一下。謝謝委員的指教,那我們2023年去年比起2022年有略降,但是我知道事正是這個成績是不能讓外界能夠肯定,那我們繼續再加油,那營造業的部分確實是每天工作環境是變動的,每天進來的包裝也不見得一樣,所以他"},{"start":4134.437,"end":4159.315,"text":"整個工地的現場管理就非常關鍵當一個監工人員或是工地主任一轉眼他工作者沒有戴安全帽或是沒有安全設施他就可能產生風險所以我覺得這個部分是整體上工程單位在現場的全時間的管理這個是非常重要的那有關不安全設備關牆動作我們現在建築檢查以這個為重點那今年的墜落打擊是希望說把我們全國的職災重重墜落災害是50%營造業份是將近到70%所以我們今天認為是"},{"start":4163.838,"end":4184.483,"text":"銀造業的墜落是我們最大的關鍵來預防那特別是民間工程的部分是更嚴重而公共工程的部分墜落距離也稍微降下來了但是民間工程的墜落像中小型的建案像台灣其實建築業的狀況還OK所以量是非常多的所以我們透過這樣的機制要求從銀造所管機關包括國土署也可以一起幫忙來做這樣子整體的"},{"start":4185.523,"end":4202.697,"text":"市長跟主委我必須要提醒你們我們違反職安法的案件最多就是缺乏相關的安全設備我們來看這兩年的公共工程這兩年公共工程2022年違反職安法的案件是達到17169件2023年違反職安法的案件是達到15241件它其實最多的就是違反第6條就是沒有"},{"start":4212.845,"end":4229.413,"text":"必要的這樣的一個安全衛生設備另外就是違反第23條未制定職安的管理計畫這個都是可以去改善去要求去督促的但是就是沒有做好造成那麼多的勞工"},{"start":4230.686,"end":4248.745,"text":"不幸死亡或是受傷失呢這個職安署必須要更提升相關的這樣的一個查核能力我們來看公共工程施工查核的相關常見的缺失樣態來做一個統計那我們職業職安署提供的資料來看"},{"start":4250.356,"end":4262.161,"text":"公共工程委員最嚴重的就是第6條就是說工作場所缺乏安全的設備合適的安全相關的設備跟措施"},{"start":4263.157,"end":4283.249,"text":"就是啊這個是重大職災的最主要成因啊剛才我們看到相關的這些統計的數據那就是說不安全的動作不安全的設備這是有高度的關聯來我們對於啊職安的訓練必須要加強我們對於啊工程會必須要"},{"start":4284.19,"end":4293.3,"text":"去加強查核這些並且優化這些工作的環境的安全以減少職災的發生來主委說明一下"},{"start":4295.198,"end":4320.074,"text":"謝謝委員的指教剛剛我想從委員開始在這邊這個執行一直以來都非常重視我們勞工的安全那剛剛委員提到這個問題我覺得為什麼會公共工程或營建工程會有高低的落差那麼它的違防範措施跟勞工本身的安全措施不夠"},{"start":4320.954,"end":4346.168,"text":"才有這個情形。我想這方面我們應該在執行面會來要求徹底的來執行這樣一個防範工作。好。署長我最後有一個具體的要求。我們有一個雲端系統應該要優化跟精進。就是說我們的2023年公共工程違反職安衛生法的像素達到15241件。"},{"start":4350.219,"end":4358.511,"text":"我認為應該要建置違反職業安全衛生法的一個查詢的系統就是說除了工程的查核應該達到10%以上"},{"start":4361.42,"end":4379.93,"text":"並且應該額外針對違反職安法達到一定次數發生重大職災一定年限內或一定年限內頻繁發生職災的業者要加強進行查核而且也要達到一定查核的比例來最後的時間署長說明一下"},{"start":4380.31,"end":4381.971,"text":"最後的公共工程委員會在本會期的質詢"},{"start":4408.951,"end":4425.051,"text":"吳主委是一個盡忠職守的政務官也希望你能夠身體健康注意自己身體健康的維護也謝謝你這幾年不管為宜蘭或者是為"},{"start":4427.173,"end":4430.534,"text":"謝謝委員的支持、處長跟關心。好,謝謝李崑澤、趙薇的發言。"},{"start":4458.328,"end":4460.77,"text":"現在請陳樹岳委員發言謝謝昭偉那請昭偉邀請吳主委請主委委員你好"},{"start":4481.318,"end":4503.904,"text":"主委早安那本席在這邊首先來關心有關公共工程的這個執行率的問題那我們看到就是有關公共工程委員會在網站上也有公告就是公布有關就是歷年來我們國內公共工程的這個執行情形創這個三高那這個三高就是包括這個總經費高"},{"start":4505.863,"end":4521.047,"text":"執行率高還有達成率高這樣子的一個成績那我們也看到就是在這個統計表裡面我們看到歷年來就是尤其在2023年我們總經費是達到6787億那整體的執行率有6530億那達成率高達這個96.21%所以看到這樣子的成績那我們當然也"},{"start":4534.771,"end":4560.384,"text":"給予高度的一個肯定那當然就是說對於過去這幾年來我們國內我們也知道就是說受到整個這個COVID-19的這個疫情的一個影響包括俄烏戰爭整個國際這個戰爭的影響所以事實上這個缺工缺料還有原物料上漲的情形所以我們在公共工程的執行的情形仍然有這樣子的成績當然我們也是"},{"start":4561.685,"end":4578.614,"text":"給予高度的肯定那不過在這邊本席就是要請教說我們所就是公布的這樣子一個執行率可是相較說我們在地方上所看到的很多的這個公共工程在辦理這個招標的時候啊這個流費標的比例是相當高的就是"},{"start":4582.996,"end":4584.438,"text":"統計數字從2020年21、22、23這幾年的統計數字在第一次招標時決標的數字比例在2023年是339件"},{"start":4603.96,"end":4623.169,"text":"總件數是1267件所以呈流費標的比例是高達73.24%所以這樣子的一個比例那相較我們做的這個執行這個情形創三高這樣子的一個狀況所以讓我覺得好像有一些落差是不是可以請主委說明一下"},{"start":4623.916,"end":4640.151,"text":"好謝謝委員的指教那麼這幾年確實我們遭遇到疫情還有原物料上漲的關係但我們在公共工程的執行方面那麼逐年有提升達成率的這個狀況"},{"start":4641.311,"end":4670.142,"text":"那這個當然有賴於我們大會委員大家的支持還有各機關一起的努力才有這樣的一個成果那另外我們從源頭那麼管控像比方說砂石料來講一般婦女圖最重要就是砂石料我們每一個月都在追蹤砂石的提供的這個數量跟來源要穩定這樣的話到一般婦女圖這邊才能夠正常"},{"start":4671.362,"end":4686.872,"text":"來出料另外在價格方面也要求經濟部這邊採取固定價格來讓售給業者這樣的話原物料穩定下來加上大家一起的努力才有這個成果"},{"start":4687.432,"end":4711.698,"text":"那麼在流標方面剛剛委員提到那麼我們統計起來也差不多在10%左右的一個流標率那這個部分我們檢討結果發現其實很多東西是機關沒有去做好應該去考慮到的比如說它的設計的不周延它的這個甚至有一些經費來源"},{"start":4713.178,"end":4723.908,"text":"這一個不穩定的狀況之下那麼不遮掩的情況之下廠商觀望或不敢進場這一些我們都有在要求機關來檢討改進"},{"start":4725.925,"end":4755.154,"text":"是,那我這邊再請教一下就是說有關我們工程會統計的這個執行情形呢是指發包之後開始的一個管控還是說包括在辦理招標或這個決標的時候就開始做一個管控我們的管控是從發包、決標開始開始啦所以流費標這個之前不算就對了,不算執行率不是,局費標也會掌握在我們的手上那麼也會加以去做一個處理"},{"start":4756.129,"end":4770.906,"text":"是,因為這個工程如果每流廢標一次就是會影響到這個工程的一個進度,完成的一個時間。所以事實上對地方的鄉親或者是主辦的這個業務的機關其實他們也都是非常的在意,因為辦理發包的機關他們也希望能夠順利的發包出去。"},{"start":4775.331,"end":4796.265,"text":"那當然就是說剛剛主委有回答就是說這個流標的原因有很多的面向包括就是沒有實際這個編列預算或者沒有訂定這個工期等等那我們也看到就是說工程會也有會診這個工程招邀前各階段機關應該注意重點及說明然後也有"},{"start":4796.745,"end":4797.725,"text":"公共工程自動化及預註化規劃設計指引"},{"start":4818.352,"end":4838.061,"text":"請教一下就是說這個參考指引對於業務機關有沒有實質上的一個幫助我想請教就是說比如說目前我的這個選區有一個公所他有一個工程他在可能兩年前就已經獲得中央核定的經費可是他在經過這兩年來才完成的這個細部設計可能在"},{"start":4840.442,"end":4840.863,"text":"公共工程委員"},{"start":4861.57,"end":4874.706,"text":"可以 這個我們會馬上來了解他雖然是在兩年前開始但是他應該以現在的預算價格來編列如果經費有所不足應該馬上做調整"},{"start":4875.273,"end":4891.611,"text":"是,可以做這樣子的一個處理是,那就是說在工程的一個就是希望能夠推展順利當然就是也需要我們工程會這邊給予就是一些協助那這樣子才能夠讓我們的地方的這個工程能夠順利的一個推展"},{"start":4892.551,"end":4916.272,"text":"好,剛剛這個案子委員在給我們,我們馬上來瞭解。好,謝謝。那因為時間的關係,在最後我也要肯定一下我們的主委,就是在任內,您的專業為我們的公共工程真的也是貢獻良多。那尤其我想有一個部分很多人都不知道的,就是有關濁水溪的這個沙塵暴的一個防治。"},{"start":4916.792,"end":4944.313,"text":"我覺得這個是以前的執政的政府沒有辦法做的可是在主委的任內這個績效非常的大這部分是不是可以請主委稍微說一下讓大家知道這個部分其實是我們在行政院各部會包括水利署、經濟部還有農業部還有環保署大家包括縣地方政府一起的努力那主要大家同心協力包括我們"},{"start":4945.154,"end":4972.057,"text":"大院委員的支持給我們預算我們才能夠來去落實去執行當然這裡面找到原因對政策要很重要而且持續的各部會一齊來努力才有這個成果我們這個問題希望能夠持續下去讓我們地方民眾不要再甲蚌膠刷我們有一個現在有新的一個生態"},{"start":4972.858,"end":4988.49,"text":"．"},{"start":4989.19,"end":5014.526,"text":"因為事實上對於不是生活在那個區域的人就是這個包括雲林我們彰化就是南彰化海線的鄉鎮這個十分嬌酸這個很多人可能沒有辦法去體會就是這個東北季風來臨的時候整個這個沙塵暴非常的嚴重真的是十分的嬌酸所以我覺得這部分真的是要給予我們的主委一個肯定"},{"start":5015.419,"end":5023.607,"text":"好 謝謝委員的主教跟關心好 謝謝陳樹越委員發言完畢現在請魯明哲委員發言好 謝謝主席"},{"start":5038.604,"end":5046.246,"text":"有請我們工程會吳主委,請吳主委,還有我們勞動部職安署周署長,請周署長。"},{"start":5054.933,"end":5072.478,"text":"首先請我們職安署周署長今天有我們談到職業災害當然在這個114年5月1號我們新的把這個保險跟我們職災這個保護把它合併給上路了那我們看到你們這個你們自己的網頁自己的統計"},{"start":5074.939,"end":5093.934,"text":"統計表格非常非常的一個詳盡那我們特別請教一下在111年度職業災害統計用行業別來看當然有這麼多的一個行業那我們特別有注意到我們把前六個我講重點管理啦重點管理就是總共"},{"start":5096.315,"end":5120.041,"text":"111年產生的職業災害總共有17482人在這個統計表上面但是哪一些行業類別它的人數最多這是一個管理的一個重點我相信你們也是這樣我們看到第一名是運輸跟倉儲業第二名批發零售第三名住宿餐飲第四名是製造業類別裡面的電子零組件"},{"start":5121.365,"end":5149.776,"text":"第五名是醫療保健跟社會工作服務業第六名也是製造業的金屬這個製造製造製造業裡面那我想針對於降德的這個6個行業就佔50.7%就等於說在重點管理這個部分請問一下你們有沒有針對於這個因為這已經是111年了就今年來講你們對於看到這樣的一個統計表格你們用什麼作為作為一個重點管理"},{"start":5150.877,"end":5173.539,"text":"謝謝委員的詢問這是全產業的職業災害包括死亡、失能跟傷病那針對這是全產業的部分我們會針對不同產業的災害特性我們訂立專案檢查做監督檢查有一些指引跟一些規範會要求那其實公共工程營造業部分雖然是它整體比例低但死亡率是高的所以我們把營造業當作我們重中之重做"},{"start":5174.88,"end":5199.787,"text":"災害預防檢查特別是重大災害的預防檢查好 我在想今天除了營造業之外先難得碰到你再跟你討論除了營造之外省哥的一個脈絡我覺得因為我們新的法規其中有20%的預算當然允許你有法規讓你去做這個植栽的預防跟重建這個很重要我覺得預防是重中之重"},{"start":5200.367,"end":5222.964,"text":"你預防做得好重建的需要就稍微慢慢的一個減少所以我們在預防的工作當然我們要看你統計的數字像這些這個產生的次數比較高的我們要怎麼樣去不管是愛心輔導或說去教導讓怎麼樣那這個產業已經在我們在台灣已經是幾十年了"},{"start":5223.684,"end":5248.983,"text":"為什麼每一年去輔導然後有很多的一個手冊為什麼一直他改進的速度幅度比較慢我覺得是不是想方設法真的要針對重點去做處理當然你剛剛講的第二個是嚴重程度了那我們刻意看到了我們營造業如果發生職災的話是屬於嚴重的就像你看這樣現在的我列出來以人次比較"},{"start":5249.744,"end":5277.51,"text":"多的排序的我們看到第6名雖然他是排第6名可是你看到後面一個表格是永久失能還部分失能就是真的就是他已經產生了終身的一個傷害甚至有一些已經永久失能這個的部分數字我們發覺在金屬製品製造業他雖然是第6名可是他一旦發生他可能產生永久"},{"start":5278.37,"end":5278.65,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5297.689,"end":5318.505,"text":"謝謝委員提醒那個基礎支援施造業是機械的切割捲匣造成勞工的上肢下肢傷害造成失能所以我們針對那個切割捲匣的企業的輔導我們有專案的處理那如果企業要改善他的措施我們還可以著以補助所以我們針對不同重點部分我們會做細項的展開也非常謝謝委員提醒"},{"start":5318.945,"end":5344.43,"text":"好 謝謝組長我不希望幾年之後看到你稅率順盈存錢存一大堆這個給你這個錢是要出來做事的那再來我們吳主委辛苦了因為你是做事人我們很多人都肯定你謝謝你那我們因為我比較擔心一件事這個就沒有談職災了就是因為我們這個T3T3第三行下當時發泡遇到很多問題"},{"start":5345.89,"end":5374.29,"text":"謝謝你你作為一個總督導你最了解那現在一個情況是說我們蠻擔心啊當時講好的一個時程講好的一個進度會不會有很大的一個改變那我們現在發現第一個問題上次我有跟你提一下那我最近有要到這個數據了那我們有看到在2024年4月來統計我們營造業移工的部分移工的部分因為現在本國的一個像有些產業找不到勞工啦所以我們去年不是一直在談這個"},{"start":5375.291,"end":5375.972,"text":"公共工程委員會"},{"start":5392.782,"end":5408.917,"text":"我看到陶基T3也是在疫情的時候缺工的時候第一波你們核准的公共工程陶基那時候1300多位移工然後好不容易進來了我的天啊就在大概兩年的期間1300多人跑掉了"},{"start":5412.04,"end":5435.571,"text":"五百一十九人高達三十九將近四十八那你再看這跑掉的人數跟全國總共公共營造業跑掉的人哇天啊他占到百分之二十啊欸這個第一個為什麼會怎麼樣這樣第二個對於那個如果人力一直沒有補齊你你看到這個會不會對工期有所影響"},{"start":5438.09,"end":5462.323,"text":"這個問題我在列管上面有發現這個問題就剛剛委員所指教的逃跑幾乎是這個比例相當高逃機這個外勞的進駐比例的提高是全國第一件我們協調勞動部特別准許他提高比例的進來"},{"start":5463.263,"end":5488.433,"text":"但是呢進來之後竟然大量的逃跑非常不應該那當時我就要求勞動部跟這個淘機工地你再這樣的話我們要把原來的額度要收回結果他們就馬上從這個重介業跟實際的管理兩個著手大量降低比例在10%以下那所以這個部分是不應該發生應該要去防範的"},{"start":5489.994,"end":5518.73,"text":"不過這個是其實我覺得蠻可怕的那到底有什麼樣一個集團我覺得這是勞委會勞動部啦勞動部你要在第一線要處理啦我看到你們每次在講說僱主要怎麼去罰啦天啊說真的我們這些移工朋友我們真的很歡迎他他沒有責任你知道嗎把錢匯光光抓到那一天不好意思機票錢也沒有罰款也繳不起他就回去了然後我們就說我們很有人權但是對我們台灣的僱主我們台灣人民真可憐啊"},{"start":5519.79,"end":5542.688,"text":"我們沒有人權啊我覺得這個當然雖然不是你直摘的啊但我覺得真的是滿complain他們說跑就跑然後說第一波因為一千多人大部分都是越南籍的所以我覺得發覺這個組織啊如果沒有一個叫做現在這個叫做國家隊啊我看這個問題是持續發生的啊不過我希望就在T3的部分啊"},{"start":5543.348,"end":5544.069,"text":"我們會來繼續督促,謝謝"},{"start":5570.074,"end":5590.509,"text":"魯明哲委員發言完畢先在此先做宣告本日有委員提出臨時提案依本會王立在登記質詢本會委員發言告一段落後處理稍後與林佩祥委員詢答完畢後我們會休息10分鐘隨後"},{"start":5592.29,"end":5598.952,"text":"休息完畢之後,隨即處理臨時提案。先做以上的宣告。現在請何欣淳委員發言。"},{"start":5623.514,"end":5637.425,"text":"三月四日我曾經質詢有關碳排資料庫的事情。這有關公共工程有大宗資產的碳排盤點現況。所以三月四日到現在不知道進度如何?"},{"start":5640.109,"end":5652.403,"text":"有關碳排的減量的問題工程會一直在推動這樣的一個做法是但是一直沒有一個一個量的一個限制鼓勵的限制來要求"},{"start":5653.668,"end":5673.158,"text":"所以我才會在質詢的時候在希望我們公共工程委員會能夠更積極更進一步的我們希望能夠逐步的建立我當然知道要一步到位是不可能但是這個是我們近年碳排的未來一定要做的"},{"start":5673.558,"end":5673.798,"text":"主委可以嗎?可以"},{"start":5699.622,"end":5719.977,"text":"因為呢,我們今天也會處理一個臨時提案,我有連署蔡其昌委員,共同來提案,我們就是認為說在這個公共財,對不起,綠色的一個採購,公共工程的綠色採購裡面,我們如何能夠呢,由政府的力量來扶植,來大力的推進,這個是很重要的一件事,不是嗎?因為這是環環相扣的。"},{"start":5721.698,"end":5721.958,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":5739.464,"end":5741.064,"text":"我希望知道說從3月到現在"},{"start":5764.429,"end":5768.599,"text":"第二、我要請教主委,等一下可能,欸,治安署今天有到對不對,臺中捷運"},{"start":5771.718,"end":5776.14,"text":"財中捷運這個吊塔吊落這個牽涉到這個工地的一個安全問題工地管理的問題那我們看到監察院的報告已經出來了監察院的報告他認為長期的代付跟終結原先的設計不良等等因素那終結原先的設計不良那個我們另外再討論但是起碼我們今天在講的是什麼工地上的職安的問題"},{"start":5799.71,"end":5818.425,"text":"那這職案呢,不僅僅牽涉到工地現場的勞工朋友們,它也牽涉到外部的我們所有人民的一個安全的問題。從台中捷運這件事情是給我們一個非常生痛的教訓。那既然有了這麼慘痛的教訓,那我們怎麼去改進?"},{"start":5819.446,"end":5843.135,"text":"那監察院的報告給兩位做個參考跟你們兩位都有關係一個職安署對塔式的起重機的檢查跟控管不足那也沒有跟地方政府做聯繫那裡面還有我們對現場作業的勞工沒有依SOP來操作也沒有採取安全的作業方法便宜行事再來又講到職安署長年來消極"},{"start":5844.315,"end":5860.741,"text":"消極的職場減災宣導那我們國內的營造業大小規模非常不一致所以呢能量也不一致能力也不一致那所以長期對公安的輕忽這也是原因之一那"},{"start":5861.621,"end":5885.196,"text":"長期在國內的工地的營造業的這個公安就牽涉到你們兩個部會嘛一個勞動部的職安署跟當然地方在地方政府中央另外公共工程委員會這也必須要負責任啊因為我知道公共工程委員會他對於各公共或者是民間的各項的這個工程的一個工地裡面也有所謂的安全指引啊還有減災指引啊還有"},{"start":5888.478,"end":5913.19,"text":"我記得還有什麼緊急什麼避難啊什麼什麼的指引反正指引一堆我有去上網去看了一下那我們公共工程委員會都是頒布指引然後都寫一張公文比如說0403花蓮地震之後那你們也發了一紙公文要求從中央到地方各行政機關呢大家呢都要注意盤點這個公共工程跟公共建物的這個安全問題"},{"start":5914.551,"end":5928.461,"text":"我通常說公共工程委員會不是只有發公文或是頒布指引而已啦那如何去要求跟落實我覺得就透過剛剛很多委員都提到你們都有在稽查你們在稽查了之後呢除了開法"},{"start":5929.562,"end":5952.856,"text":"那還有什麼樣的措施?那所以等一下請公共工程委員會吳主委回答那我也另外請職安署我們署長也來告訴我們說那從終結事故之後職安署又看到了監察院的報告之後又對我們工地上的這個安全的管理還有勞工的職場安全的管理那又是如何?吳主委要先回答嗎?"},{"start":5955.418,"end":5971.563,"text":"公共工程相關的安全等等當然公共工程委員會他不是執行機關他會要求各機關要來落實來執行但是我們公共工程委員會在要求各機關要來落實的時候我們又是如何知道各"},{"start":5972.921,"end":5989.177,"text":"相關的機關有沒有落實?你們掌握管控的工具是什麼?主委我們就透過他們的執行我們會管控他的一個現場作業的進度跟狀況那麼會要求他的主辦機關上級機關應該要落實去執行"},{"start":5992.941,"end":6008.69,"text":"那剛剛委員提到這一個案件的狀況除了這邊提到的這一個本身吊塔這個部分的安全不周延之外我們後來做了一個指引要求像這樣一個高空作業"},{"start":6010.571,"end":6036.979,"text":"所以在這一件事故之前我們對下面的進空的這個指引是沒有的是到這個事故之後才有的這個指引其實本來就要做他沒有做那我們所以這個就是公共工程委員會我現在就是要求嘛既然"},{"start":6037.879,"end":6062.127,"text":"主委你這樣跟我講了我就覺得痛心你知道嗎如果本來就有這樣的指引為什麼沒有辦法落實那為什麼相關的單位沒有辦法去要求落實那所以你又發了一次公文來提醒各個行政機關說如果有調查這個工程有調查式的這個程序在進行的時候下面一定要淨空所以你又再發公文提醒各個行政單位"},{"start":6063.366,"end":6079.663,"text":"你的指引嗎?不是這樣本來他就應該要這樣做他沒有做我們今天是再度提醒所以你再度提醒,有罰則嗎?這個部分你沒有依照勞安的規定本來就要處罰的啊是嗎?所以來,署長請說"},{"start":6081.912,"end":6109.006,"text":"報告委員,有關交委的部分有個管全責,在採用這個案子,交委的部分...等一下,吳主委你聽喔,這個不是治安署,他說下面的淨空是交委,交委又是誰管的?交委是,你可能跟我講說是他們地方的交通局,那這個採取當然是地方政府的事情,但是呢我覺得公共工程委員會在這件事情上面應該在強烈的要求要落實這個指引,好,那來,署長不好意思"},{"start":6110.748,"end":6134.042,"text":"這個終結的建造院的報告我們敘敘受教那我們第一時間針對全國的領域的工程總共是有109個工程我們做了全面的檢查因為台大的部分去年底的部分有全國242個工地我們做了全部的檢查那有關事發的案子的建造公司有44個工地全國我們做檢查那重點就是說是這個個案這個雖然不是職災但是對我們來講是很重大的衝擊"},{"start":6136.765,"end":6154.786,"text":"公共安全事故但相對影響所以我們這個個案持續不斷要求地方檢查機構這個落實度的展開橫向聯繫非常重要像我們的有些案子審查之後地方交通單位知不知道這個個案交回機會能不能跟上去也是統合的整理的需要做橫向的"},{"start":6155.948,"end":6172.806,"text":"聯繫,至於工作人員的教育訓練,我們特別定一個相關規範,反正發現有錯誤的案態,那個工作者要再重新回來再做安全講習,我們也正式上路了,來告訴所有的公司,不是只有上面的領導者,連施作的操作人員,他的再訓練我們在做加強。"},{"start":6173.687,"end":6193.976,"text":"署長我是建議啦現場的這個工地的安全的指引當然公共工程委員會不斷的去要求我們職安署也要不斷的去要求我們現場執行勤務的工作人員你剛剛講的第一個他有沒有落實他的作業的一個SOP第二個他有沒有所謂的在職"},{"start":6194.776,"end":6216.326,"text":"在訓練的一個機制第三個我們如何能夠確保在現場執行勤務的施工工作人員他能夠把所有的安全措施做到到位我覺得這個方方面面都需要我們跨部會跟地方政府大家一起合作好不好而且可以思考一下如何去獎勵落實"},{"start":6218.687,"end":6220.668,"text":"謝謝主席,我們有請吳主委"},{"start":6254.818,"end":6267.223,"text":"委員你好主委早安早安感謝你登記以來對我們屏東的建設的關心在很多的公共工程上面給予屏東縣政府很多的協助讓我們的工程可以順利來進行謝謝表示感謝不過"},{"start":6271.125,"end":6289.816,"text":"主委準備520要被退休了我相信在這還是有幾個問題要來就教一下主委那我們還是本期還是期待就是未來公共工程委員會在主委這個之前的一個領導之下未來能夠無縫接軌我們自己去考慮我們繼續這樣延續做就好了不過我想"},{"start":6294.099,"end":6314.953,"text":"公共工程採購跟檢驗是一個很重要的一個項目那因為最近有發生了所謂一個警政署可能今年2月發下的那個防彈背心裡面的抗凹線板發生一些問題那針對這個5900件結果有1000多件有瑕疵就平均大概每6件就1件有問題但是當時在工廠抽菸的時候"},{"start":6319.756,"end":6324.92,"text":"只抽到21件請注意這樣的檢驗程序有瑕疵嗎?"},{"start":6327.977,"end":6349.64,"text":"詳細的作業我要進一步的了解那基本上照講他應該從開始的採購會有一個標準的合格的樣品在那邊來作為依詢然後他驗收應該會有一個階段性的比例的要求那他有沒有照這樣來做這個需要進一步的了解"},{"start":6350.385,"end":6374.602,"text":"對於說我們包含我們這個採購的評判檢驗的費用也好還是程序也好應該要照期間來做啦是不是這部分我們工程會針對這樣子有沒有在做怎麼樣一個要求我們各單位做一個這個都有他的我們的要求比方說他廠商自主要檢查的部分他會在整個承包的費用裡面來注印"},{"start":6375.342,"end":6394.056,"text":"如果是甲方要驗收抽驗的部分這個費用要由甲方另外去支付按照比例來進行所以這部分我們還是要求我們工程會應該是強化我們各單位針對這樣的一個抽檢的一個這個制度應該要強化畢竟這是我們的公帑我們百姓的納稅錢"},{"start":6398.619,"end":6412.735,"text":"發生這樣的一個弊端也不是我們所有的百姓樂見的啦另外我要請教諸位另外一個問題就是說因為我本席在屏東縣政府服務的時候我想我們縣政府針對所謂一個公產查核小組的一個"},{"start":6413.716,"end":6430.751,"text":"重視都會很要求我們一個相關的工程那因為像2020年我們那個中寮國道3號的中寮隧道就有施工偷工減料的問題那我想請教主委我們自己工程會一年有查核多少的案件"},{"start":6432.518,"end":6456.717,"text":"查火的部分分成兩個部分一個是機關、縣市、本身、主政業務該查火的比例這個在我們大院、我們理責局長一再的建議之下現在提升到10%以上這是他們機關、主辦機關要去做的事情那工程會這邊也有一個查火小組他是針對異常案件來加以來查火"},{"start":6458.052,"end":6471.44,"text":"主委那異常案件是針對檢舉案件才會來作抄的嗎檢舉或者是媒體有呈報還是有什麼的像審計部門、監察部門有提報包括大院的委員有提報的案件我們會去做專案的記錄"},{"start":6473.301,"end":6487.718,"text":"主委這一點本期是建議這樣子因為以本期的了解其實各縣市政府包含我們的鄉鎮市公所也是都要看首長對於這個案子的這個查核工程的態度"},{"start":6488.499,"end":6514.045,"text":"有重視的人他就是會收到就是會將這個當作一回事要求我們所屬的查核小組加強查核但是也有一些就是能夠應付的話但是應付的話就變成會有很多能夠在豆腐渣工程這些陸續會出現這其實也是危及我們百姓的生命財產的安全那這部分是不是我們工程會能夠主動強化我們各機關的一個查的能量能夠給予相關的協助"},{"start":6515.279,"end":6540.917,"text":"這個當然是我們的責任我們會來進一步的來檢查來檢視來進一步要求像剛剛委員提到中寮隧道這個案子那麼已經發生這種狀況要到這個有人檢舉才能夠發現那我們應該從這個地方來檢視他到底在整個施工的過程監督機制哪個地方環節出問題應該從這個地方去補強"},{"start":6544.669,"end":6569.395,"text":"主委謝謝另外剛剛我們核心村委員他們也有提到所謂一個碳排的部分那當然環境部在4月29號已經公布碳廢三職法的一個草案那剛剛我聽主委講說我們也在做一個因應那但是這個部分如果說環境部最快7月公告那你地方政府能夠來得及做準備嗎?主委這部分是沒有掌握狀況"},{"start":6570.255,"end":6592.582,"text":"這個部分我們已經在這個準備當中我們已經先行收集相關資料那麼要求各主辦公共機關先行自行做盤點那麼怎麼樣去做到結凍檢探這個部分來準備那麼來設想預先規劃那麼配合將來的這個要求能夠落實來執行"},{"start":6594.216,"end":6616.187,"text":"主委之前媒體有報導所謂的一個弓箭的綠色膨脹我們有允諾要來做吸收那但是這個公共工程增加的成本的部分因為現在包含所謂的原料也好物價也好勞工的人力也好這部分真的是困難重重啊尤其我想未來我們面對的"},{"start":6617.068,"end":6627.586,"text":"除了工程除了這個營業成本之外最重要是缺工的問題那之前主委有提供要不要引進印度勞工這一部分那這部分是不是有跟勞動部有做一個協調"},{"start":6629.139,"end":6647.576,"text":"這個部分勞動部這邊有這樣的一個準備那麼他是多一個進來的一個管道那這個部分我們尊重也有這個需要那我們在營建業的部分我們當然會來這個準備那麼從各方面的需求來因應"},{"start":6648.752,"end":6670.111,"text":"因為這畢竟這公共工程是我們很多建設的火車頭那我想主委也感謝主委這個展覽一年的努力未來我們也還是要再提醒一下公共工程委員會跟相關的部會因為目前公共工程的各項成本都在上升不管是未來碳排還是缺工的問題我們都要積極來面對這也能造成社會的這個動盪那謝謝 以下我們時間到這邊結束 謝謝"},{"start":6676.176,"end":6676.776,"text":"委員發言完畢．休息10分鐘"},{"start":6704.688,"end":6720.754,"text":"吳主委從35年前的基隆市政府工程局局長開始因為我昨天才跟我家老爺子林水木市長聊過天才知道您在基隆市政府任職過吳主委一向是以專業跟實事求是的態度來處理公務"},{"start":6721.834,"end":6742.364,"text":"這點是讓本席非常敬重的那聽說您因為說身體的因素跟自己個人因素想要倦情那本席認為這個是不只是對公共工程委員會的一個損失也是對我們中華民國公務系統一個很大的損失不過當然啦我們必須也要請教吳主委就是說"},{"start":6743.504,"end":6761.632,"text":"以您的專業跟經驗想必對於您理想中的繼任者會有一定的標準跟期待那對於即將接任的陳金德成主委您會有什麼樣的期許跟建議讓他在這個公共工程委員會這麼重要的職位上面能夠升任呢?"},{"start":6763.918,"end":6784.492,"text":"根據我個人來講這幾年來當然首先要感謝的就是大院國會委員的支持跟指教非常多那麼我們跟相關同仁以及所有機關也真的盡心盡力在推動公共工程建設包括品質包括進度包括各方面的這個要求"},{"start":6785.313,"end":6790.898,"text":"那麼未來當然我們的期待我也相信應該會無論誰來接辦都會繼續的推動下去"},{"start":6794.076,"end":6821.921,"text":"好,不過老實講,針對媒體啦,媒體在我們去年9月23號,這當然標題是比較誇張,不過事實上也是說在去年9月份的時候,不只是屏東爆炸事件,還有很多的事故,導致說在去年9月平均每5天就有一則的死亡事故,那台灣重大的公安死亡率是新加坡的2倍,日本的1.8倍,請問吳主委跟周處長如何解釋這樣的現象呢?"},{"start":6825.233,"end":6844.083,"text":"謝謝委員的詢問那台灣其實是整體的職業災害的降低是有逐漸降低但是確實是比較緩慢那參考日本跟新加坡是東南亞地區算是排名第一第二的國家他們國家的制度跟投入相對也是可以給我們做學習的"},{"start":6845.143,"end":6862.184,"text":"那我覺得我們臺灣特別是營造業的部分就是整理上管理的落實必須要再加強即使我們有規範有法規有監督檢查但是現場施工單位的現場的監督管理我相信是重中之重所以我們責安署會在未來現場的管理系統有沒有得到落實"},{"start":6862.905,"end":6887.651,"text":"會做比較細緻的追蹤檢查跟要求以上報告OK同樣也是在去年啦我去年有一份報導上面講說工商協會的秘書長有特地講說臺灣的勞動檢查員在2022年只有1033位所以說職業安全的檢查員也只有600多不到700位全臺灣那我們全臺灣的企業有多少我們怎麼可能檢查的完呢一個勞工發生職業災害"},{"start":6889.952,"end":6900.786,"text":"不只是只有他本身受到一些傷害其實會影響到整個家庭那我想請問現在已經是2024年請問現在勞動部是否有計畫來改善現況而且在未來做出有效的稽查"},{"start":6902.015,"end":6929.303,"text":"謝謝委員 這個檢察員數字是正確的非常謝謝委員那我們認為我們的檢察社會是要分級風險檢查有比較高風險的比較重點的事項我們做檢查一般中小或者是比較微型或者是比較風險低的事業單位其他要做自主管理才是上策要不然每個事業單位都靠政府來檢查這個機制是不對的那包括日本跟新加坡檢察員的比例也沒有特別高所以我們檢察社會在做檢查我們做有效的監督檢查"},{"start":6929.943,"end":6952.102,"text":"但是現場的他的安全衛生的監督人員或管政人員那才是我們的關鍵的重點我們第一線的安全衛生管理人員是我們現在要求培訓或更好的落實這是我們認為是可以做改善的比較正面的方法來進行好那我想請那我這邊也是想說我們知道其實在在這邊來講在公共工程裡面基層的勞工其實往往是最弱勢的"},{"start":6952.742,"end":6973.992,"text":"甚至說在日本、新加坡甚至所有的這個先進國家裡面所有當他們這些職災發生的通常都是最基層的勞工也是最低薪的勞工會被受到犧牲而本席對於公共工程勞工的保障是相當重視的但是我們說真的看到數據統計之後我們是非常失望請問主委有確實掌握職災中受傷的人數嗎?"},{"start":6974.992,"end":6986.744,"text":"那輕重傷的比例、受傷的原因呢?那尤其是說施工廠商後續處理是否也要追蹤避免不肖廠商一再參加工程投標這些數字請問我們州署長都有確實掌握嗎?"},{"start":6989.278,"end":6989.378,"text":"報告委員"},{"start":7007.438,"end":7029.094,"text":"法律沒有強制通報的部分當然就回到公司自主管理自主做自己的這些安全性要改善我想是層層的機制來做展開那我們暫屬或是勞動部針對重大案件的部分的追蹤還包括在發生的事業單位比如說我們講去年的中捷案件那個事業單位那個建設公司我們全國的盤查這個我們不會鬆手這樣請委員能夠能夠執行謝謝"},{"start":7031.175,"end":7046.363,"text":"那我想請問一下那如果職安署知道狀況請問您知道說我們當然這個數字大家都知道就是在2022年111年的時候我們職災死亡人數是320人是5年來新高但是同年的職災失能傷害人次到達13000人"},{"start":7048.044,"end":7052.088,"text":"那其實這代表說這個整個從107年到111年的統計失能傷害頻率也就是每百萬公尺導致失能傷害次數已經從1.27升到1.49"},{"start":7063.4,"end":7083.398,"text":"這一個講起來如果以說說這個20%來算的話我們這期是已經超過20%了所以這是我們面臨很嚴重的職災嚴重狀況對吧跟委員報告我們職災有的統計數是有死亡、失能跟傷病那失能部分就是說傷害部分我們會做劣果那傷病的部分在過去兩年COVID-19有"},{"start":7084.119,"end":7085.3,"text":"放寬那個認定他是職業傷病給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給給"},{"start":7108.277,"end":7109.718,"text":"這句話聽下去讓人覺得很心酸很不能認同"},{"start":7127.845,"end":7152.345,"text":"委員 我要澄清一下政府的監督機制我們不會說我們沒有責任但是整體上的現場管理事業單位他負有經營跟永續發展的責任所以我們是合作的關係而不是我們把責任就推給事業單位或推給雇主那甚至很多勞工受傷我們的後面的資源協助補助系統也是通過整個保險的機制來給予協助不會完全讓雇主完全承擔跟委員做這樣的澄清"},{"start":7152.765,"end":7181.641,"text":"我希望勞動部會把這個慈安這件事情真的放在線上因為我們如果說我們被人家講說說我們每1.5天就會有一個勞工死亡這件事如果拿出來講的話其實是件非常駭人聽聞的事情我們自取為先進國家但是我們上面並沒有做得很好那最後面還是這邊吳主委是希望說您一切順利然後身體健康好謝謝非常感謝好謝謝林培祥委員發言完畢現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":7187.427,"end":7188.074,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7217.88,"end":7219.563,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7231.553,"end":7232.553,"text":"公共工程委員會議"},{"start":7250.539,"end":7261.764,"text":"我剛你來的時候我看到不是綠色的不是那個有啦綠色沒有你來的時候哪一本翻來翻去不是都記在腦袋裡面還在翻"},{"start":7271.288,"end":7271.848,"text":"這個已經超過三年了"},{"start":7290.803,"end":7296.369,"text":"一年喔?兩年喔?這書本的破壞力是太高了趕快再重新貼筆從封中"},{"start":7311.446,"end":7313.228,"text":"不是我說皮要包著不然精華還不見"},{"start":7336.21,"end":7348.056,"text":"二、審查二、審查三、審查四、審查五、審查六、審查七、審查八、審查九、審查十、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二"},{"start":7358.985,"end":7386.053,"text":"二、審查二、審查三、審查四、審查五、審查六、審查七、審查八、審查九、審查十、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二"},{"start":7390.54,"end":7396.705,"text":"委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7416.543,"end":7424.792,"text":"法定人數不足法定人數不足法定人數不足法定人數不足"},{"start":7446.247,"end":7468.598,"text":"二、審查二、審查三、審查四、審查五、審查六、審查七、審查八、審查九、審查十、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、"},{"start":7482.534,"end":7506.473,"text":"二、審查二、審查三、審查四、審查五、審查六、審查七、審查八、審查十、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二"},{"start":7510.111,"end":7511.712,"text":"主委我也要跟你謝謝"},{"start":7540.219,"end":7540.239,"text":"致詢議員"},{"start":7558.371,"end":7584.345,"text":"跟主委拜託的那主委就同意我們的工程機關講這個優惠的部分禮約進行要不要去解辦比照進行講所以我們這就有引領了其他機關我們都不能講謝謝主委謝謝主委工程的關聯性很大其他的機關你任意的給講我們就接受就好我們那個評審也非常嚴謹我想也學習金主獎的模式"},{"start":7587.007,"end":7587.307,"text":"謝謝主委 謝謝主委"},{"start":7615.71,"end":7617.412,"text":"民間的目的的管理其實"},{"start":7637.489,"end":7640.271,"text":"臺灣其實像這些地震我們也會風險的控制也很深"},{"start":7661.323,"end":7661.483,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7678.146,"end":7691.794,"text":"二、審查二、審查三、審查四、審查五、審查六、審查七、審查八、審查九、審查十、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二、審查十二"},{"start":7700.238,"end":7701.519,"text":"公共工程委員會主席"},{"start":7725.867,"end":7727.728,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7756.323,"end":7759.045,"text":"委員會主席委員會主席委員會主席"},{"start":7784.155,"end":7785.035,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7812.116,"end":7816.239,"text":"二、審查二、審查三、審查四、審查五、審查六、審查七、審查八、審查九、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審查十、審"},{"start":7842.336,"end":7869.487,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7873.763,"end":7892.722,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7908.907,"end":7911.629,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7926.613,"end":7953.49,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7959.114,"end":7970.644,"text":"公共工程委員會主席"},{"start":7981.152,"end":8003.182,"text":"二、審查二、審查三、審查四、審查五、審查六、審查七、審查八、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五、審查十五"},{"start":8006.803,"end":8011.773,"text":"繼續開會,我們現在要處理臨時提案本日既有一案,請議事人員宣讀"},{"start":8018.907,"end":8045.555,"text":"臨時提案依鑒於政府應主動帶動民間推動淨零轉型,原此要求公共工程委員會應就政府採購訂定每年綠色採購比例,以及提出公共工程減碳蓋礦並定期公佈資,提案人委員蔡其昌等。宣讀完畢請問各位委員及工程會有沒有意見?工程會,來說明一下"},{"start":8047.186,"end":8062.469,"text":"主席及各位委員,工程會就這個提案基本上是競表同意,會專事辦理,但是能不能請示主席我們在倒數第二行這個委員會後面"},{"start":8063.73,"end":8077.431,"text":"因為這個案子會涉及到環境部的資源回收再利用法的這個執行那法源源頭是在那裡所以能不能在這個委員會後面加上會同環境部這五個字就是工程會會同環境部"},{"start":8079.279,"end":8097.214,"text":"主席第一個對於會統環境部本席沒有太多意見我會支持我覺得這個本來環境部主管的業務這個是主要在他們那我提這個案子主要還是老問題就是說我上一次的質詢我也去提到了就是"},{"start":8099.036,"end":8123.373,"text":"我們在2050宣告經營碳排所以我們的速度說實在話一定要加快所以我上個禮拜問了循環經濟上一次我跟工程會在這裡討論的時候我提了那個循環經濟的概念那這一次我希望這個綠色採購的比例就是我看了一下那個數字我覺得還是不夠啦那當然這個我們現在綠色採購的"},{"start":8127.452,"end":8155.704,"text":"公共工程會可能主管的項目還是很低啦所以那個數字會很低啦那我的意思是說會統環境部也沒關係或者工程會也沒關係就是說我們除了督導公共工程督導公共的採購之外我們也應該在永續在淨零在SDGs上面我們應該要有一個更加積極的做法所以我才會要求你們說每一年綠色採購的比例你們要怎麼去逐年讓它上升"},{"start":8157.034,"end":8183.966,"text":"所以應該就政府採購訂定每年綠色採購比率逐年上升以及提出公共工程減碳的概況其實你們要加那個會同環境部我也想加每年綠色採購比率應逐年上升報告主席除了環境部的這個修正之外我也加幾個字每年綠色採購比率逐年上升以及"},{"start":8185.356,"end":8201.226,"text":"提出公共工程減碳蓋礦並定期公布。來,應該沒問題吧?認識辦理。好,修正通過。臨時提案處理完畢,如有委員對上述提案補簽,列入記錄並刊登公報。現在繼續請許智傑委員發言。"},{"start":8217.281,"end":8219.962,"text":"主席主席我們請主委請吳主委你好主委好我想再次肯定主委在工程會對於這個採購案件的一個努力我想這個最有利標的絕標的目的我們都很清楚就是要防止最低標"},{"start":8247.353,"end":8264.368,"text":"隨便做做,或者是偷工減料,或者是工程品質不好,就像買沙一樣,我們買沙一定是買最有利標的,不是買最低標的。你要最適合你的品質跟價格能夠平衡,這個是我們最有利標的目的。"},{"start":8266.63,"end":8293.66,"text":"我從當時吳洪某主委就開始要求一直到我們吳主委一樣是吳主委都一直不斷的在在意就是說我們最有力標的成果那進度到底有沒有不斷的進步所以我看我們從108年到112年那這一陣子也的確最有力標的比例都逐次的上升所以呢我想"},{"start":8294.7,"end":8314.581,"text":"這一個重點就是把政風跟主計加進來那未來我想吳主委將來他的好朋友會來接主委那我也要特別的就是說我們所有的工程會的所有的同仁這一個好的政策一定要繼續延續下去"},{"start":8316.042,"end":8335.57,"text":"吳主委其實這幾年對這個部分你就可以看到都有明顯的提升我們說希望說未來還是能像剛剛蔡貴昌委員提到的這個要逐步上升那逐步上升這是我們的要求所以也希望說我們工程會這部分可以多幫忙加強"},{"start":8336.638,"end":8360.437,"text":"好嘞 我們謝謝委員一直以來的指教我們會來努力所以要謝謝主委的努力那另外就是說工程會也表達就是未來公共工程的商機要放眼全球那當時主委也定下一個目標就是今年希望達到新台幣200億元那到目前我們已經達到了63億"},{"start":8363.155,"end":8364.536,"text":"我們有信心也會要求同仁繼續努力"},{"start":8376.788,"end":8398.2,"text":"所以其實今天看起來是像在跟主委見別的感覺但是呢我是覺得好的政策好的主委應該要繼續就是要延續下去所以這個希望說那個我們工程會所有的同仁未來也能夠繼續的加強這一部分國際市場的拓展"},{"start":8398.98,"end":8405.847,"text":"那甚至就是我們的工程國家隊到目前為止成立的狀況是不是主委你覺得還滿意嗎?"},{"start":8407.435,"end":8434.578,"text":"我覺得還有努力的空間雖然大家這段時間盡心盡力包括從源頭開始起案去鼓勵他們到第一線去了解掌握情資狀況法令然後鼓勵業者組團隊來出去我想最後面的成就大家努力有相當的成果謝謝委員一直以來的這個指教跟支持"},{"start":8435.358,"end":8455.943,"text":"謝謝我想我們還是數據會說話啦就是目前63今年希望200明年也希望說工程會的所有的同仁也能夠一起要求自我就是能夠再繼續增加我舉個例子我們現在其實臺船有做一個做一艘船叫海事工程船"},{"start":8457.885,"end":8479.883,"text":"這艘船是全世界第二大艘那這一艘船其實一出動好像一天的租金就要一千萬台幣所以收走的工程其實是蠻有技術性蠻艱難不是那麼容易的但是我們台灣有這個能量全世界第二大"},{"start":8480.836,"end":8505.438,"text":"那將來我們工程會也如何能夠協助或者是如何能夠再拓展新南向或者是甚至其他國際市場我們可以好好的運用所以我想未來的工程國家隊也希望說工程會可以繼續不斷的去整理我們到底有多少的能力可以走向國際的市場好謝謝好那第三個就是"},{"start":8507.131,"end":8530.857,"text":"工程會每年都會辦金職獎嘛那其實對於國家公共工程品質的要求這個我們會繼續的努力那我記得我跟主委提過現在在缺工的時代是不是有規劃比如說讓在一線的甚至營造廠的工人他們有成就感所以呢你比如說白天的叫做最佳藍鐵"},{"start":8532.301,"end":8533.983,"text":"中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預算凍結案計7案"},{"start":8546.06,"end":8573.897,"text":"上一次委員這樣的建議非常好那現在我們已經納入規劃從勞工開始來鼓勵讓他有金子獎這樣的一個榮譽感就是現在已經規劃所以下一次什麼時候辦我們準備再看今年能不能把它納進來對今年嘛今年大概金子獎什麼時候辦在8月開始就會辦8月嘛所以你如果現在沒有準備等新的主委來再準備就來不及了對"},{"start":8575.297,"end":8595.752,"text":"所以我要特別的再強調一次就是說這個是一個好的概念那如果工程會也認為好的話那這一個是不是事先規劃就要把它規劃進去好沒問題我們已經在進行了好現在已經在進行了所以底下的同仁也都因為他必須修正一些規定讓他來"},{"start":8596.693,"end":8625.646,"text":"大家可以報名可以來鼓勵對所以我就說嘛因為你8月就要辦了嘛對今天你的好朋友來了之後也是520之後的事嘛如果那時候再來規劃保證8月是來不及了啦是所以我想說是不是主委能夠再要求我們的同仁那事先的工作先把它規劃籌備出來那在8月的時候才能夠順利的把這件事情完成好"},{"start":8626.266,"end":8643.349,"text":"沒問題啊這個是主委給我們的臨走前給我們的畢業禮物那也希望說這個諾言同仁一定要把這個主委的諾言能夠實現那這個其實是對全台灣的所有的職人精神"},{"start":8644.07,"end":8660.094,"text":"﹗"},{"start":8660.985,"end":8673.748,"text":"謝謝主委謝謝大家希望說我們工程會的同仁能夠繼續要求把這件事情再把它完成好謝謝好謝謝許志傑委員發言完畢現在請蔡其昌委員發言謝謝主席請吳主委請吳主委"},{"start":8696.679,"end":8706.639,"text":"主委早首先謝謝主委這些年來對國家的貢獻所以在這裡先跟你說一聲謝謝那接下來我想"},{"start":8709.097,"end":8732.771,"text":"主委畢竟你還在位置上所以本席該建議該講的話我還是必須要善盡我立法委員的職責本席在長期以來因為過去擔任副院長期間大概很多的議題都在副院長的辦公室我們進行一些協調或協商那本席過去比較少有機會可以在這裡所以上次就教主"},{"start":8733.691,"end":8756.343,"text":"主委其實就是這個循環經濟的問題公共工程會在所謂這些相關工程的廢棄物等等包括這個刨除物我們應該有永續的概念在循環經濟的架構底下進行處理那今天我剛剛做了一個臨時提案這個臨時提案其實主軸都是一樣都是永續"},{"start":8758.164,"end":8775.817,"text":"這個就是說我看了一下那個數字我們公共工程委員會這個政府採購所謂綠色採購金額的部分只有126億那我剛剛也請助理去了解一下這個126億主要的綠色採購在公共工程委員會向下主要都做哪些採購"},{"start":8778.52,"end":8802.796,"text":"這個部分我們是鼓勵各機關他必須要去考慮包括各方面的這一個設計的考量他的建材、他的工法還有他的規劃的一個整體的考量應該從這樣就去把他圓頭就把他考慮我的意思是說我們統計126億這126億"},{"start":8807.533,"end":8835.796,"text":"數字這個金額實在是很低啦那我的意思是說這126億是不是有一些你的項目是沒有放進去綠色有一些我們做綠色採購的鼓勵但是沒有放進去我的意思問你這個問題我覺得這個有可能我們必須來再檢視對幕僚你們有提供給主委這個答案嗎就是早上助理告訴我好像只有碳粉匣啦"},{"start":8837.136,"end":8856.042,"text":"是不是主委我覺得這些是使用的一些物品那我個人的看法更重要的就是在工程的剛剛我講的規劃設計來講就必須考量它的使用的材料主委我們一項一項來沒有關係我等一下會再請教那個綠建築的部分就綠色採購金額只有126億其實對本期來講這個政府的力道很低"},{"start":8867.006,"end":8893.561,"text":"那我問了一下126億我們買什麼那大部分都集中在什麼碳粉匣啦或者一些部分商品看起來他佔政府採購的金額裡面看起來並不大那我的意思為什麼我做了這個臨時提案我的意思是說公共工程委員會跟環境部對於政府所有部門不只指於什麼紙張啊、碳粉匣啊"},{"start":8894.981,"end":8914.087,"text":"應該對於所有政府部門在綠色採購上面我們應該做一個整體性的數字的統計如果我們沒有數字我們就無法管理我們就無法訂定目標所以本席的意思是說我做這個臨時提案交通委員會、朝野立委都同意"},{"start":8914.767,"end":8929.846,"text":"意思就是說接下來工程會跟環境部應該對於政府到底我們做了多少綠色採購今年做了多少我們明年成長1%成長2%逐年我們要把綠色採購成長那我們遇到的障礙是什麼"},{"start":8930.487,"end":8948.949,"text":"就沒有這些數據的統計跟管理我們沒有辦法訂定政策跟目標嘛主委這樣你懂我的意思所以本席要求要訂這個看起來公共工程會也沒有意見嘛只是加了環境部所以這是本席第一個我覺得應該來做在綠色採購上面第二個呢"},{"start":8950.404,"end":8974.385,"text":"在剛剛主委有去提到包括建築嘛建材啊等等那我們現在這個當然公有建築物的公有建築的所謂這個綠建築的標章這個是內政部在發啦但是內政部在發是發給你說你這個建築物有沒有符合綠色建築有我就給你綠色建築的標章嘛但是這個是他決定要做這件事情"},{"start":8975.27,"end":8988.609,"text":"然後透過內政部的檢查給予合格標章那公共工程委員會要不要鼓勵或者我們有想出什麼樣的政策目標讓綠建築去申請的人變多主委"},{"start":8991.701,"end":8998.787,"text":"你有沒有什麼想法可以增加綠建築因為那個綠建築你看內政部的這個資料108年有191件到了112年也不過218件那蔡總統宣布2050淨零碳白的時間是在110年你看111年、112年其實都比110年件數來得少"},{"start":9016.946,"end":9027.612,"text":"所以本席的意思是說公共工程委員會應該訂定目標嘛對於綠色採購、綠色建築我們都應該有明確的這個方向跟目標主委你的看法呢"},{"start":9028.086,"end":9057.132,"text":"我覺得兩方面跟委員報告那麼從各機關的採購也許會走向剛剛講的紙張、碳粉等等那就工程來講應該朝著另外一個層面怎麼樣從這一個工程本身的設計規劃去考量對包括材料的選擇沒有錯 這個我都支持有沒有方法有沒有方法讓這個數字可以開始往上走而不是一直停頓在這裡"},{"start":9058.069,"end":9079.05,"text":"我覺得我們可以來從開始選商的時候就能夠納入評選的要求因為主委要卸任了啦所以我希望公共工程委員會的同仁新來的主委之後你還是要告訴他本期的關注焦點就是這個我對公共工程委員會最重要未來四年我都會問這個題目"},{"start":9080.748,"end":9107.569,"text":"我就是SDGs就是永續就是循環經濟就只有這個題目而已啦所以你們新來的主委你們要告訴他趕快定目標然後本期每一年在追蹤考察你們的目標有沒有照這樣去做謝謝主委那接下來那個治安署的那個連署長有來嗎周署長周署長周署長指連署長啦我都這樣來那主委你先請休息一下好不好謝謝"},{"start":9109.67,"end":9138.364,"text":"委員好,好,署長好,署長那個齁我們齁在這個我們的這個永續的發展目標裡面我們勞動部有做自我檢視嘛那其中啊這個核心目標的8叫促進包容且永續的經濟成長其中具體目標裡面我們有促進工作環境安全及保障女性勞工參與工會權益然後我們也訂出了對應的指標對吧是"},{"start":9139.544,"end":9154.862,"text":"我看了一下這個數字因為時間有限我看了一下那個職災死亡的千人率我不管高跟低我只問一個問題就是說看起來沒有明顯的那種下降的這個趨勢"},{"start":9157.293,"end":9160.595,"text":"市長有沒有什麼目標或方法?市長有沒有什麼目標或方法?市長有沒有什麼目標或方法?市長有沒有什麼目標或方法?市長有沒有什麼目標或方法?"},{"start":9187.153,"end":9213.162,"text":"那這個六年這個路徑一定要出來啦不然的話他不會到2030那一年就自動忽然數字就減半了這不可能所以呢我是很擔心因為看趨勢齁雖然只有兩年啦齁這個趨勢看起來就沒有下沒有應該邏輯上他應該是緩慢要一直下降但看起來這兩年並沒有這樣的趨勢所以本席必須要在這個執行台上來監督同時期盼"},{"start":9214.262,"end":9223.012,"text":"勞動部一定要對這個數字你們要具體的路徑要出來才不然他不會到了2031年忽然之間死亡人數就減半所以"},{"start":9224.276,"end":9246.169,"text":"我知道就是說我們除了這些什麼勞檢啊取締這個之外其實我們應該建立起應該另外的思維有沒有可能什麼樣的方式可以我們更大的力氣跟這些營造廠商來合作透過怎麼樣的教育方式或者提醒方式或者什麼樣的機制讓他除了事後的取締"},{"start":9247.39,"end":9268.22,"text":"之外,當然這個也很重要嘛,因為有些人就是很懶惰,他就是每天都不做,當然你要把他嚴格處分這個本席沒有意見,對這種,但是還是有很多人他其實很願意配合,或許他方法不好,或許他不知道該怎麼做,那勞動部應該可以主動積極的把這些人"},{"start":9269.973,"end":9293.474,"text":"想出一套方法所以壞學生有壞學生的處分方式好學生有好學生的方法所以你把好學生教得更好或許他們你這個數字就會逐年下降所以本期談的這個路徑其實是這個概念就是我們要有一些具體的做法因為我們沒有聯合國這個SDGs的時候我們還是這樣在做嘛但有了這個之後我們目標要把它減半"},{"start":9294.346,"end":9319.85,"text":"那個方式路徑就要早早就要開始動,署長同意嗎?非常謝謝委員指教,我們的重點應該是,跨部會合作,公私協力,委員會不會只有做勞檢才會達到目標,我認為這是不可能的,所以整個是從上中下游,從源頭的設計到最後執行,到好的給鼓勵,不好的給你克制,整體上的循環。所以處罰是一塊啦,這個你不可能停嘛,也不應該停嘛。"},{"start":9320.29,"end":9332.967,"text":"但是你要另辟一個路徑你的那個死亡人數才可以下來好不好好 謝謝好 謝謝蔡吉昌委員發言完畢現在請張志文委員發言"},{"start":9343.98,"end":9350.373,"text":"主席好、各位官員、各位委員、大家早安。是不是有請我們工程會的主委。請吳主委。"},{"start":9357.165,"end":9379.94,"text":"委員你好主委好今天本席非常榮幸有機會站在這邊來請教主委一些問題首先要給主委非常大的肯定因為主委過去在新北市也是過去臺北縣的時間擔任我們公務局的局長以及臺北縣的副縣長對於中和的這個過去水患的問題幫忙很大做了南山子分紅跟瓦窯溝分紅"},{"start":9381.902,"end":9382.563,"text":"中央政府總預算凍結案計7案"},{"start":9396.619,"end":9413.856,"text":"主委的部分那今天本席到這邊來特別是要來跟主委求援因為在0403大地震之後我們那個新北有一個非常重要的環狀線中和段現在在中和到板橋這一個區域現在是停時的一個部分那根據這個捷運局這邊的表達"},{"start":9416.158,"end":9439.117,"text":"要將近要一年的時間才能重新通車那造成這個很多的鄉親不能接受而且它是一個新蓋好的捷運所以我想要先請教主委的部分針對這個維修將近要一年的時間那這個工程會的部分有沒有一些掌握現在的情形跟進度"},{"start":9440.673,"end":9457.638,"text":"首先要謝謝張委員的支持跟指教,跟肯定,非常感謝。過去長期在臺北縣的服務,收到地方的支持,非常一併的感謝。"},{"start":9460.365,"end":9472.662,"text":"有那樣的一個成果當然都是中央地方以及縣政府大家一起包括我們議員當時陳議員等等一起的努力的一個結果"},{"start":9474.424,"end":9488.502,"text":"對於這個捷運的工程的狀況那麼我們準備在7號我會請我們的副主委邀請專家學者到現場"},{"start":9490.064,"end":9518.373,"text":"如果委員有空也歡迎一起來了解我們想去了解一下到底為什麼會發生這種狀況這裡面有兩個可能的因素一個雖然是都是地震造成但是呢那是不是已經達到這種設計的規模以上而損壞還是說他的設計施工有沒有哪裡的一個地方沒有注意到"},{"start":9519.153,"end":9535.207,"text":"那麼這兩個狀況跟未來的修復會有不同的做法如果是說還沒有達到那麼而發生那應該要檢討怎麼樣來再導正補強也好不要讓它再發生"},{"start":9536.508,"end":9557.359,"text":"真的不好意思非常感謝主委的分享那簡單跟主委報告一下他主要就是分成兩個比較重要的這個問題那我從新聞上得知第一個就是屬於鋼樑錯位的一個部分第二個就是因為鋼樑錯位導致鐵軌有斷裂的情況那現在很多的這個不管是專家學者或者是我舉兩個"},{"start":9558.799,"end":9585.507,"text":"這個圖片先給主委看一下,舉兩個最近新聞上有報的一個是這個臺北市土木技師公會這個莊理事長有提到說用這個施工的方式以及新北市捷運局的旅局長都有提到說用千斤頂的方式把這個東西給復位那可不可以請這個主委稍微跟我們分享一下就這個捷運在施工或是後續復原的方式這個千斤頂扮演什麼樣的一個角色"},{"start":9586.67,"end":9602.755,"text":"我覺得要怎麼樣去復原回來,要看他造成的原因是怎麼樣,不是只有給他敲凍就好,如果是他原來的設計或施工有需要去導正的部分,那個部分必須先解決。"},{"start":9603.895,"end":9620.415,"text":"因為那個地方他是蠻高的一個狀況他必須要非常的注意安全的問題那麼趁著現在一個狀況發生一併檢討一下應該要從根本設計就要檢討施工檢討跟地震的發生是怎麼樣會這樣"},{"start":9622.377,"end":9649.858,"text":"謝謝主委的分享那也感謝主委剛有提出來說工程會這邊也會到現場來協助我們這個捷運局的部分來處理那最後實踐的關係要請主委協助因為我這邊也有跟捷運局這邊來做聯繫他說這次因為造成的損害導致這個損失的經費蠻大的將近到12億的經費那地方這邊是有想要我來協助說是不是可以請工程會的部分來協助補貼一些"},{"start":9651.558,"end":9676.767,"text":"經費以免說讓這個東西修復可以快速一點或是說他們可能地方的經費會不足的有沒有主委有沒有辦法稍微協助一下經費的補貼特別跟委員說明一下當然天然災害有天然災害的這個我們的救助的一些包括地方的準備災害準備金不夠中央怎麼樣來協助這個有它的機制在但我剛剛講到如果檢討結果"},{"start":9678.328,"end":9694.798,"text":"他如果是跟原設計跟施工那麼有需要檢查的地方可能會有合約責任的問題那如果這個部分就依照合約的規定去處理如果不是的話是天然災害當然就有災害懲備金的處理的機制來協助"},{"start":9696.206,"end":9717.216,"text":"好謝謝主委再次感謝您就是我認為中央地方一起協力努力把這些事情處理好讓所有我們這個不管是綜合板橋有需要用到環障結線綜合段這些鄉親可以盡早回復這個回歸正常的生活那今天再次感謝主委很榮幸在這邊跟您請議謝謝好謝謝我們會了解協助謝謝好謝謝張志文委員發言完畢現在請黃國昌委員發言"},{"start":9737.856,"end":9738.859,"text":"謝主席麻煩有請主委請吳主委"},{"start":9747.267,"end":9772.256,"text":"委員你好主委你好我從2020年還在立法院的時候就開始追蹤一個弊案這個是我們國防部空子部30億的福星營區竟然有承辦這個案件最高的負責人一位少將收受了超過2000萬元的回扣那這個案件目前一審已經重判了12年而涉案的"},{"start":9773.476,"end":9774.116,"text":"主委您了解嗎?"},{"start":9803.061,"end":9805.823,"text":"我直接利用質詢的時間跟主委兼具"},{"start":9833.084,"end":9846.316,"text":"全職機關國防部就是沒有停權為什麼不停權?他認為他行賄的時間點是在政府採購法修正以前但問題是什麼?即使按照舊的政府採購法"},{"start":9847.642,"end":9863.421,"text":"第50條第1項第7款的規定其他影響採購公正違反法令的行為也構成解約的事由而事實上在之前政府採購法我們即使沒有按照新的因為新的政府採購法有明確的規範嘛"},{"start":9864.562,"end":9889.463,"text":"你如果送錢的話就是要停權嗎?但是即使按照舊的政府採購法修正前的政府採購法最高行政法院100年判制1236號判決早就說了這個是一個依法可以停權的事由我覺得很奇怪我覺得我們的公務機關在執法的時候可以選擇性執法嗎?關係好的就不停權"},{"start":9891.288,"end":9896.112,"text":"關係不好的還記得最高行政法院100年度判製1236號判決這樣子適用法律的狀況 主委"},{"start":9901.752,"end":9921.283,"text":"可不可以去了解當然我們可以了解可以嘛拜託公共工程委員會去了解第二件事情跟國防部也有關係的是我當初接到崔少仁的檢舉我也檢舉了說有不肖的廠商把國防部當成提款機什麼樣交成提款機兩頁的法律意見收費21萬"},{"start":9923.26,"end":9941.145,"text":"然後呢合報的工時100多個小時收快50萬實際的工時只有38個小時下面也是一模一樣我當初檢舉的內容最後進行調查全部都是真的即使在調查的過程當中"},{"start":9942.947,"end":9954.263,"text":"那個不肖的廠商很囂張啊跑去原單位找人關說找人施壓連我也認識很多大哥我實在不想找他們我也查過你的底了連這種話都說得出來"},{"start":9956.616,"end":9981.542,"text":"但崔少仁沒有在懼怕這種惡勢力我們也絕對不可能像這種惡勢力低頭整個案子查出來了當初的確是有福報國防部說要移送憲兵隊偵辦辦到哪裡去案子是不是被吃掉這個我會去追但跟公共工程委員會有關係的是什麼跟公共工程委員會有關係的是結果"},{"start":9982.967,"end":10008.905,"text":"把國防部當提款機的不肖廠商現在是你們採購申訴審議委員會的委員主委你會不會覺得這個太扯自己過去就是不肖廠商福報款項都抓包了抓包了以後那些不法所得都要吐出來結果你們工程會竟然把他聘為申訴審議委員會的委員主委可以接受嗎"},{"start":10010.992,"end":10030.049,"text":"無法接受這是我第二個前舉的事情請主委回去處理主委我相信你的正直我也相信你的連結因為我從上一次還在國會的時候其實就認識你了希望你依法秉公辦理我絕對相信你是被蒙蔽的最後一個事情"},{"start":10032.182,"end":10049.771,"text":"我最近在追查特定的媒體人從我們政府取得大量的標案這個標案到底是怎麼拿到的我盤整了以後綠色的媒體人周玉蔻從我們各個政府機關國營事業最近5年取得政府標案1300萬1300萬就台電的部分"},{"start":10055.214,"end":10081.892,"text":"我開始追臺電的內容臺電你標案到底怎麼給的我在經濟委員會裡面有質詢我當初透過公共工程委員會希望把這一千三百萬的標案到底是怎麼給的在做什麼事情請他們標案的機關把相關的評審驗收報告全部都交來但問題來了大家都交只有高雄市政府不交"},{"start":10083.649,"end":10098.797,"text":"我從發文所知道現在通過公共工程委員會3個月了都還是不交是不是可以請主委出面一下跟高雄市政府講公共工程委員會跟他調取的資料該給的還是要給不要遮掩我們再來溝通"},{"start":10099.909,"end":10116.684,"text":"可以嗎?三個月囉今天我如果上個禮拜發文今天拿不到我今天就要是我不對我已經等了三個月了麻煩主委出面跟高雄市政府好好討論一下這是有什麼見不得人的事情這是有什麼好遮掩的"},{"start":10117.697,"end":10137.455,"text":"但我在過濾這些標案的過程當中真是讓我瞠目結舌我們的地方政府是怎麼樣在濫用這些媒體採購的標案在做個人的政治宣傳我舉一個具體的例子2018年放眼得標屏東縣政府網路行銷合作案"},{"start":10139.451,"end":10159.704,"text":"限制性招標他的名目是什麼?屏東縣政府網路行銷合作案那要行銷什麼?要行銷屏東縣政府嘛結果他行銷的不是屏東縣政府欸他行銷的是什麼?他行銷的是在選舉的時候用民調的政治攻防欸來我給主委看"},{"start":10161.175,"end":10182.623,"text":"放言那個時候拿這個標案出什麼新聞啊?屏東縣選情民調現任縣長潘孟安以41.6的支持度大幅領先對手。欸主委請教一下這是哪門子屏東縣政府的行銷啊?請問這到底在行銷什麼啊?可以這樣幹嗎?主委"},{"start":10188.249,"end":10192.973,"text":"請表示意見該處理要處理該送檢察院我希望公共工程委員會、主委維持您一貫"},{"start":10205.772,"end":10220.681,"text":"給台灣社會、給我心中、廉政的形象我知道很遺憾520以後你要離開這個位置了但是我希望我們在這個位置上一天就要把事情做好這種腐敗的事情"},{"start":10221.921,"end":10222.781,"text":"主委同不同意"},{"start":10244.199,"end":10250.044,"text":"黃國昌委員發言完畢現在請顏寬恆委員發言顏寬恆委員顏寬恆委員不在現在請林俊憲委員發言謝主席本席邀請我們工程會的吳主委請吳主委"},{"start":10270.441,"end":10288.289,"text":"委員你好吳主委你有看到這個新聞嗎就是我們國道3號的田寮還有中寮隧道有看到這個工程應該是2019年要完工結果他拖到2020年才完工結果後來有人檢舉他偷工檢料是2021年檢調就去開發"},{"start":10292.376,"end":10301.305,"text":"檢調去查以後這個新聞不知道當時有沒有受到大家的注意一直到前幾天就到我們今年2024年4月26號媒體才報導出檢調去查驗的相關結果這個發現有嚴重的透空檢調"},{"start":10309.362,"end":10331.463,"text":"你現在才知道這個新聞嗎?你注意看,檢調查的,第一個,它的那個鹽酸,你工程內行的你知道吧?就是它整體那個一罐酒的保溫,要咬住那個山壁,鹽酸裡面只有16支合格,合格率達62%啦。"},{"start":10333.344,"end":10344.907,"text":"第二波的隨機選項,這是隨機抽樣,剪掉去找是亂抽的,抽出來,第二次有46.3%是不合格的,你現在知道這個事情嗎?我只看到這個報導才知道。好,再來。"},{"start":10351.26,"end":10377.316,"text":"後來再去查根據媒體的報導這這麼高的配合格率但是在現場的抽驗你知道我們現場都有監控也有計遊小組等等他那個抽驗結果欄寫的都是台灣世襲台灣世襲是監照現場有派一個監照主任監照的規範裡面都是填寫符合"},{"start":10379.301,"end":10407.646,"text":"所以我不知道他在建造什麼東西他不是一兩根不合格不合格率第一次抽驗有62%兩波的第二波有40幾%不合格率同時檢調也在台灣市區的辦公室裡面搜查這個研酸的相關記錄記載發現他這個工程這個工程的檢驗日期竟然是填寫在灌漿日期之前"},{"start":10409.127,"end":10412.189,"text":"你要知道嘛,你要貫穿下去之後,你不知道怎麼去檢查,啊不去貫穿就去檢查好了,你要作弊連日期都寫錯,請問公共工程委員會進入去了解這個事情?"},{"start":10421.178,"end":10442.878,"text":"我們馬上我們已經請同仁進一步去了解這一個我第一個壓抑的是這個高工局跟4C兩個部門是我們國內比較嚴謹的一個部門那為什麼還會發生這樣所以我們會詳細的了解一下"},{"start":10444.691,"end":10463.179,"text":"我們來瞭解為什麽這麽重大的工程挖隧道、空間、包括邊坡這算重大工程了吧這工程總經費追加以後大概快要10億那其中我們希望說像這樣的案子怎麽可能會發生我跟你一樣很訝異"},{"start":10465.643,"end":10488.213,"text":"大家要了解喔,不管是工程會,或者是中央各機關啊,像這個是交通部的工程啊,交通部跟工程會本身都有查核小組,也會有採購機核小組嘛,是不是這樣?都從頭到尾沒有發現這樣的弊端啊。採購機核小組你一看就知道啊,他買的那個材料根本就不合格的嘛。"},{"start":10489.356,"end":10512.545,"text":"也不管啦你最後在整個施工的過程都沒有人發現嘛那因為是重大工程啦所以其實他在施工的過程當中啊這些所謂的查核小組就要去看施工中的查核小組就要去看所以交通部自己本身就用查核小組他要去看查核小組啊他列舉了32項缺失啊有寫出來了那這32項缺失怎麼辦"},{"start":10517.725,"end":10536.992,"text":"他竟然處理就是交給交通部備查我認為這樣的規定必須要改你等於主管機關的查核小組查到的缺點要交回給主管機關自己備查你求遠見裁判他怕嚴不嚴他嚴就30天後缺失"},{"start":10542.093,"end":10549.577,"text":"然後這些缺失後續怎麼改善?有沒有人再去追查?沒有啊,他就交給交通部備查啦。所以喔,來,我們工程會啊,對於這樣的一種工程的潮流情形啊,我覺得"},{"start":10562.076,"end":10576.024,"text":"我們再來看看那工程會呢自己本身的查核呢其實工程會啊你的任務率有限啊我看你每一年的查核能量尤其最近5年啊例如從109年開始啦2018年你每一年大概都查核120件"},{"start":10579.474,"end":10599.05,"text":"是不是這樣?就所謂施工中啦那積查件數大概就驗收啦驗收你每一年驗收的那種茶碗大概都430幾件啦但是啊我們的重大工程分類我就覺得你這個分類急劇啊工程會是不是應該要再檢討一下因為你5000萬以上全部列為一類那那個量數太大了"},{"start":10600.049,"end":10611.251,"text":"本席建議應該要再評估把兩億元以上的重大工程採購案再把它特別區分成一個類別﹖或者是你要彈性調整查核、稽查的件數﹖"},{"start":10613.328,"end":10628.42,"text":"否則的話你看我們現在一年兩億以上我特別去清查一下數量給主委參考我們現在每一年兩億以上的重大工程最近幾年可以說是大量的增加增加三十幾%2021年才不到300件2022年就420件去年達到430件另外"},{"start":10638.62,"end":10649.267,"text":"這個 從描述到這個工程從頭到尾在施工中都沒有被查爾小組抓到我是覺得非常意外第一個公共工程工程會的查爾小組也沒有去看"},{"start":10650.95,"end":10669.241,"text":"不曉得是沒有抽到還是怎麼樣,我不曉得啦。但是這個工程,工程會應該要去看為什麼?因為他已經不斷的展延供給啦。預算追加了30幾%啦。按照我們工程會查核小組的查核要點裡面,所謂的異常狀態,你大概就有這幾點。"},{"start":10670.509,"end":10685.216,"text":"就契約不斷變更像中亞隧道這個他這個就契約不斷變更他預算從7億多追加到9.8億追加了30幾%然後完工日期從2018年、2019年、2020年這標準的符合我們查二小組的異常狀態你們也沒有去看"},{"start":10694.844,"end":10721.61,"text":"照理講你特別列出這個第三優先查核因為我們查核小組的行事辦法21年都20幾年都沒有修改從2002年都沒有修改一直到2023年去年你再趕快把它修改你把它增加這個所謂第三優先就是我提的它整個完工啦整個施工過程有重大的異常你也可以把它列為稽查列為所謂優先查核隧道工程很重要吧"},{"start":10722.662,"end":10722.682,"text":"好﹗"},{"start":10740.971,"end":10767.724,"text":"也就是說這是個重大但是已經出現異常的施工狀態竟然也沒有去查而且是個重大工程幾乎快到10億那同時最離譜的是這個偷工減料的工程竟然還得到公安獎勞動部你知道嗎勞動部這個也得獎那個研酸偷工減料啦工人在施工減的在玩命啊這樣我們得到公安獎你要不要拜託這個可以撤銷吧"},{"start":10772.793,"end":10797.95,"text":"發言委員我們回去再研究看看因為這是工程的安全那品質的部分不同的評估的方式啊這品質的有問題啊工人在一個很危險的狀態下施工一個人得公安獎啊你要回去研究是我們要回去再檢討謝謝委員好謝謝主委啊然後不你再回答再想一想再回答什麼東西好來主席謝謝啦抱歉好謝謝委員"},{"start":10804.443,"end":10806.476,"text":"好,連續縣委員發言完畢,現在請油耗委員"},{"start":10837.83,"end":10837.95,"text":"請吳主委"},{"start":10851.417,"end":10868.202,"text":"委員你好主委你好今天的質詢再次也還是藉由這個機會也肯定主委胡志誠、胡主委對於公共工程委員會以及臺灣重大工程推動貢獻的一個肯定謝謝"},{"start":10869.622,"end":10887.496,"text":"所以今天在諮詢的過程中我也跟辦公室團隊跟幕僚討論雖然準備了許多的資料那在這裡的話就藉這個機會今天也不特別為難但是還是勉勵跟期許工程會在未來的話不僅是"},{"start":10888.8,"end":10905.749,"text":"包括在過去這個職災的部分重大工程的職災的部分其實我們在去年平均1.21日就有一名勞工還因為職業災害死亡還10萬人就有2.7人因為職災死亡還不如日本的"},{"start":10906.429,"end":10922.966,"text":"雖然不如日本的1.5人英國0.8跟黃潤河南的0.3所以我們重大職災死亡率其實是河南的9倍那在治安署日前公布2023年的統計人數那其實去年的重大職災是151人那在"},{"start":10926.189,"end":10943.728,"text":"之前的話其實營造業一直維持在150人到147蔡英文執政者2015年那營造業只在147所以這個的數據是維持在一個100多人的一個情況我們是荷蘭的9倍那也將近是日本的2倍"},{"start":10944.349,"end":10966.22,"text":"那所以也希望說在這個未來來講我們在重大的公共工程我們能夠在職災的這個部分我們要持續的看如何來做改良改進啊那能夠讓我們的工地或是建地營建的這些勞工朋友能夠更為安全那所以這個是第一個事情那第二"},{"start":10967.386,"end":10996.362,"text":"在印度的勞工可能要來這個開放來台現在都還在研究上次有跟主委有探討過那探討的過程中這時候其實在許多營建缺工的這個問題那希望工程會跟勞動部還能夠再做充分討論那當然說不能夠影響到本勞的就業權利跟包括的相關勞動條件但是也在這個缺工的問題以及說是不是適合讓他們進來"},{"start":10997.202,"end":11021.921,"text":"就算進來了重大政策他們進來了能不能夠補充我國的這個營建的勞工缺工問題那我也希望在未來也能夠持續來去加強跟勞動部的探討那我在想謝謝吳承成吳主委對於工程界的貢獻那在這裡也肯定工程會謝謝那我就直接來問治安署署長"},{"start":11025.444,"end":11050.345,"text":"委員好部長好以前我們可能就或多或少有互動啦那因為我本身也是勞工背景出身的吳裕仁委員立委是我以前的老闆也是我的老師那等一下王宏威立委也會提到在今天我們記者會有提到一個重大的就是職業安全的事件在高鐵高鐵的內部有像"},{"start":11051.286,"end":11076.133,"text":"王宏威立委辦公室跟我們這邊有提到有檢舉就是在這個高鐵公安事件害人的真相在4月9號當天高鐵0621車次攔下列車進入漲化路段的時候全黑電力異常但是在裡面的時候在進行6個工班在做維護作業一般來講這個工班的維護啊他們其實都是在晚間夜間"},{"start":11077.293,"end":11106.402,"text":"但事實上他們就在白天的時候進行這個維護作業那那個時間也是不可能斷電的所以說導致這個公辦他有三次有可能因為因為他有接地的那個防護棒不然的話他就幾乎就會造成這個至少三次以上兩萬五千伏特的電擊那這個等一下王宏威委員也會再接著再質詢再問你那我要接著再問另外一件就是高鐵的列車場他不僅是他那時候有喝酒"},{"start":11107.502,"end":11134.936,"text":"另外一件在4月27的時候高鐵列車長他有喝酒但是喝酒之後在酒廁他酒廁的他這個幫酒廁的吊派員他就直接幫他代為酒廁就是直接他自己去催這個酒廁那讓這個高鐵的列車長其實有酒駕的這個情況那這個都會非常嚴重的影響這個職業安全的問題我想就交一下署長像這兩個事件您怎麼的看法"},{"start":11135.916,"end":11163.815,"text":"委員提醒,這可能就是我們內部同仁為了安全的部分來勇於舉發,我們這是正面的齁,看起來就是這個公司的安全管理系統出了狀況,它內部的出的程序跟標準沒有做遵守,所以這部分應該是從內部來做集合,那我們這個案子我會請我們的中區財安中心還有會同台中市勞演署對這個彰化基地部分先做一區地域的了解,還有按照非常重要程序的製作,再來施作,另外是現場立即斷電來做,這是我們的"},{"start":11165.316,"end":11169.36,"text":"我這一題我沒有問得很細因為王洪溫委員等一下會接著針對這個要來跟你討教那我是要直接跟你問一下那像"},{"start":11188.818,"end":11211.198,"text":"職安署的部分像這兩件事情尤其像後面他戴維酒測那個酒測也是零容忍但是他這個是因為他是一個這兩個事件他呈現的是國人的交通安全他呈現的是就是勞工朋友他在實施這種工廠他在維護的時候他的一個安全的一個狀態"},{"start":11212.279,"end":11236.158,"text":"那所以說它這個部分它是有可能是造成死亡甚至造成這個許多就是在列車上的乘客的死亡所以我請這個治安署署長這個事情一定要慎重處理報告委員這個部分我還要再跟因為是鐵道局有關那個監管鐵路那個運輸安全的責任我們在跟鐵道局做進一步的橫向聯繫看看這個怎麼來讓高鐵公司針對工作者甚至是列車場那個"},{"start":11237.259,"end":11260.419,"text":"防護的按照9策不能更落實,感謝委員因為在這起事件那非常謝謝宏威委員那其實一直以來都有非常在追蹤跟把這件事情來做呈現那我在想說今天我剛才也沒有問主委這個部分那我是想說直接問指南署是因為其實像這樣子的一個事件不僅是表示這個"},{"start":11261.92,"end":11262.3,"text":"現在請羅志強委員發言"},{"start":11301.287,"end":11304.791,"text":"主席有請勞動部職安署署長周署長"},{"start":11312.679,"end":11332.739,"text":"委員好 署長好雖然今天報告主題是公共工程的重大職業災害但公共工程是整個職安保護的一部分根據職安署的統計數字我看到蔡英文總統上任前2015年的重大職災死亡勞工人數是321人營造業死亡是147人"},{"start":11336.883,"end":11356.158,"text":"那2023年整體死亡人數是下降到300但營造業增加到151人平均每2.4天就有一位營造業的勞工死亡那相較於其他的產業營造業所發生的職災死亡事件更多那以111年"},{"start":11359,"end":11386.268,"text":"來說因為我看到你們的統計值我這邊得到的資料只有111年有接近一半的死亡人數就是來自營建業那總體來看111年因為職安事件而死亡的案例當中有一半是因為墜落而死亡那死亡在營建業比例始終居高不下那前三年平均有98名營造業勞工因墜落死亡那"},{"start":11387.288,"end":11407.914,"text":"但是如果去稽查,部長、署長你知道,發現違私的話,最高可以罰多少錢嗎?報告委員,我們現在是違反這個法令規定是,懲罰6條第一項是3到30萬。3到30萬嘛。那就是說根據你們的違反職業安全衛生法事件統一懲罰基準,通常要到第三次才會罰到30萬嘛,對不對?是。"},{"start":11410.697,"end":11432.129,"text":"那第一次通常是3到6萬嘛,對不對?對,如果是重大事故就不會,就直接跳到會比較高額的處罰。我講通常啦。可是我就想要問一下,這就是我有點疑惑的地方,難道這個一條人命就是您所謂的3到6萬或是法到30萬,那目前"},{"start":11433.109,"end":11462.016,"text":"你們怎麼有沒有打算去調整的因為事實上我們知道就是說基本上勞工安全的後盾有部分是要靠我們的行政機關的這個強制力量那如果你要督促這個業者能夠去做好所謂的一些相關的安全工作的話有時候裁罰的強制力量其實也是一個很好的一個督促的一個機制但你看目前來看這個3到30萬元您覺得足夠嗎"},{"start":11463.431,"end":11492.111,"text":"跟委員報告這治安法修法這個訂的3到30萬是在民國103年正式施行已經進了10年所以我們勞動部也在做內部檢討因為外界認為說我們3到30萬這個Range應該在做進步的改善或者增加比如說3到90萬之類的讓這個額度拉高但是對中小型微型的企業它本身程度可能也有限所以那個Range部分我們做內部討論那我們今年也有希望在做那個治安法修法的那個的進展"},{"start":11493.692,"end":11508.982,"text":"到時候再請委員跟我們多協助跟指教我覺得這個還是要希望你們就處理要做勞工的後盾那已經不合時宜的一個裁罰的一個基準其實就要與時俱進否則的話勞工就失去這個後盾"},{"start":11509.842,"end":11536.26,"text":"今年初職安署辦了一場所謂的春安勞檢營造業防墜落職災要今年定為營造業墜落打擊年那針對營建業部分的話那麼去年營造業工作場所重大職災死亡人數還是墜落災害佔整體營造業將近70%那我想請問你今年的目標是什麼那目前稽查量有提升嗎開發數量有多少"},{"start":11538.827,"end":11557.7,"text":"報告委員我們的目標是用前三年的數據再做30%使用降30%為目的全國職業災害墜落大概是五成左右但是營造業的墜落災害是佔到七成所以我們認為針對現場的開口護欄沒有做但是當作我們集合的重點所以我們今年就整理說展開"},{"start":11558.34,"end":11577.15,"text":"另外就是檢查機構查完之後回報我們系統裡面還有報告部會裡面的工程查也做進行那這個詳細數字因為現在加入3月我們是不是容許我們在後期補給這個資料給委員參考麻煩後補過來其實整個我要講就是說因為真的我覺得政府就是我們勞工最重要的後盾"},{"start":11577.99,"end":11603.587,"text":"那尤其是在這個你看到營造業的職安的問題實際上我發現這些年來並沒有下降那這一點就代表說我們政府責任在肩膀上還是很重所以希望我們勞動部我們職安署能夠勇於認識然後該改的法規該改的一些裁罰基準以及該加強的一些稽查可能都務必要努力全力以上謝謝委員"},{"start":11607.76,"end":11629.471,"text":"羅志強委員發言完畢．現在請侯孟楷委員發言好 主席謝謝我們也一樣先請那個勞動部治安署署長請周署長"},{"start":11637.625,"end":11650.033,"text":"委員好來署長我就延續剛羅委員的詢問確實本期也注意到其實營造業重大自災的死亡人數居高不下從2022年攀升到156人2023年到151人但是"},{"start":11655.691,"end":11657.172,"text":"已經訂說這個是所謂的墜落打擊年我們不要淪為口號"},{"start":11676.57,"end":11705.425,"text":"具體要怎麼樣做?因為有沒有瞭解說到底的原因是什麼?墜落,不過通常我們有講是說我們工這個職場我們的工程都應該要有綁這個什麼墜落繩那為什麼還會有這樣的狀況?我先有一個詢問齁營造工地我們現在發現民間工程營造工地是竹枕往上蓋的齁它其實我們不希望只是讓勞工備安全帶為主而是把開口跟護欄做好勞工不要勾安全帶才是我們的上策"},{"start":11705.925,"end":11706.085,"text":"是,你講到重點"},{"start":11730.366,"end":11749.367,"text":"執行面我們都有指引我相信以我們現在2024年中華民國政府不可能連這些指引都沒有那就是落實落實的問題現在營造業勞工有講一個是有工作才有錢第一年的一些失聯勞工失聯移工也有競爭所以他可能就會拼命"},{"start":11750.868,"end":11773.312,"text":"我們你剛也講是說在這個工地裡面最重要是有沒有落實所以兩個部分嘛一個就是說我們要靠業者的一個良心落實那另外就是我們自己勞動部的這個營造業的勞檢員我們是不是能夠增加這個勞檢的比例讓他們知道是說我們是完真的我們希望他落實現在勞檢員的比例勞檢員有多少"},{"start":11774.205,"end":11783.012,"text":"各位委員回報我們全國的勞動檢查員安全衛生部份大概是員額是665個人那勞動條件包括薪水薪資休假那個勞動條件檢查是3333人所以總共全國勞檢員是11033個員額但是我也跟委員承認因為我們勞檢員也有一定的流動率因為其實我們外面去做檢查也是蠻"},{"start":11796.522,"end":11824.577,"text":"不容易嘛,對不對?所以說,原額部分,謝謝委員提醒,我們也在做任務盤整,需不需要增加或是斟酌我們這個勞檢重點的改變,讓檢查有效,但是不是疲於奔命。是。那你現在,因為你自己定的目標是最弱打擊年,目標是要比2021年到2023年這三年的平均值還要減少三成。是,最弱的部分,是。是。那你具體的做法是什麼?老幫委員,這個,第一個就是,有關"},{"start":11825.658,"end":11843.549,"text":"你的原額、你的人數,如果沒有增加,我用花欸,掃三層,然後就燒香拜佛,看拜託今年大家墜落少一點。如果原額、金額、預算都沒有任何的增加,那你掃三層的底氣哪裡來?"},{"start":11844.844,"end":11870.079,"text":"包委員我們的預算會有增加因為我們也會透過我們的公共預算去做爭取但我們檢查會針對最弱範圍重點檢查但是我們認為不是純粹檢查才會降災我們透過目的世界主管機關甚至營造同業工會還有公立主任工會執行面的部分的落實他們能不能貫徹到現場來署長我先提出這樣的一個質詢是期待是說我們督促大家來做好"},{"start":11871.539,"end":11892.87,"text":"你會後那個預算增加以及相關的部分再請給本席辦公室資料那另外本席也提醒其實還有一個行業這當然今天討論的是各個公共工程但是我覺得這點出來我覺得我們一起來解決我真的是希望是解決有一個行業其實風險非常高而且我也聽很多業者講他真的是現在高齡、鷹架搭設"},{"start":11894.611,"end":11911.326,"text":"他也跟墜落很有相關就我們外面外牆那些鷹架有沒有竹架搭設外牆搭設而且他最辛苦的地方在什麼主猜對主猜沒有錯什麼時候要主要猜颱風來臨前"},{"start":11913.706,"end":11940.703,"text":"臺風來臨前突然間大量的需要人力要去收那些帆布那在那短時間兩三天的時間會變成是他們工作可能超過一天超過十幾個小時二十個小時為什麼因為大家都要搶著趕快把帆布捲起來不要影響那等到臺風過後再把那個帆布也降下來我們就本席的這個選區裡面就有這個鷹架搭設公司說半年內"},{"start":11942.311,"end":11970.331,"text":"兩個工人就摔下來摔斷腿那這樣的一個狀況我們能夠怎麼樣因為當然這不是公共工程可是對於這樣的一個行業我也問過業主他講說那你們沒有綁安全繩嗎還是他講是說現在這個行業基本上沒有年輕人要投入沒有年輕人要投入有的都是老班的那他也不敢用外勞也不能用移工也不能用移工也不能去搭"},{"start":11971.502,"end":12000.219,"text":"所以說他變成是一個明明有需求但是這樣的一個行業會變成是高風險的一個行業那也跟你今天提出來就是說我們今年如果說政令要講說這是墜落打擊年怎麼樣能夠來協助的這個部分是不是會後一併也我們一起來討論怎麼樣能夠加強這一塊安全的一個提升好不好謝謝好 謝謝洪孟楷委員發言完畢現在請王洪威委員發言"},{"start":12011.846,"end":12022.091,"text":"謝謝主席,我請我們公共工程會吳主委,還有勞動部周署長。主委好,還有署長。先來請你們聽一個音檔。"},{"start":12052.213,"end":12075.061,"text":"OK嗎?4月9號我們基地票表。4月9號我們基地票表這個事情。不斷要求停止。幾分鐘。4號的調查必中究全。叫我們兄弟們不要講這件事。好像這件事情沒有發生過。"},{"start":12083.86,"end":12084.901,"text":"公共工程委員會主席"},{"start":12110.675,"end":12129.541,"text":"主委首長昨天是勞動節其實我想對於我們基層的勞工來說尤其在一些我們的這個工程這個前線的這些勞工來講其實他們可能每一天都擔負一定的風險那今天這個"},{"start":12131.782,"end":12145.637,"text":"這個影音檔這個音檔事實上是來自於高鐵他們在烏日基地的一個工班他們所面臨到的實際的狀況剛才油耗委員也有特別的提及"},{"start":12146.238,"end":12165.129,"text":"因為在4月9號的時候呢高鐵他們南下列車突然就是這整個列車就是突然停了5分鐘到8分鐘整個的跳電那他們沒有去說明原因但是事實上是當天他們維修有一個開關的維修他們必須其實應該一般來講SOP應該在晚上而且要把電力整個關閉可是他們沒有做"},{"start":12169.471,"end":12191.162,"text":"他們在白天就在做維修測試的時候這電流就通過可是另外一個一組工班6個人他們事實上在當地的現場他們在做維修還好這個工班他們是很重視SOP的因為他們要保護自己的生命安全所以他們都用接地棒會去驗驗了三次他們都很驚訝"},{"start":12193.443,"end":12219.208,"text":"發現應該要關閉電流的地方竟然他們還是開啟電流造成他們他們就說如果今天他們沒有按照SOP的話他們六個人就變成烤肉串好這件事情我早上我跟郵號委員我沒有召開記者會也感謝勞動部有派人到記者會裡面來聽這整個的狀況所以我就請一下署長在這個狀況現在你們也大致了解你們會做什麼樣的處置"},{"start":12220.931,"end":12236.969,"text":"跟委員回報,因為謝謝委員提供這樣的訊息我們因為在彰化基地,因為我們會由我們中區職安中心會同台中市勞檢處先就這個案做了解,有沒有關我們職安法規,做後面的處置第二是看這公司的管理系統出了狀況,邏輯上就是應該夜間作業"},{"start":12237.99,"end":12242.212,"text":"對,那這個我到時候也會再繼續提供,我今天早上也特別,其實這也是內部所提供給我們,因為在4月9號發生囉,已經發生了。"},{"start":12259.739,"end":12264.745,"text":"他們一直遲到4月30號在他們的經營管理周會裡面他們的董事長才提及這件事情而提及這件事情為什麼呢因為他們發現他們的員工因為非常不滿意他們對這件事情呢事實上是非常草率的"},{"start":12279.241,"end":12280.102,"text":"所以他們事實上確實他們有去投訴他們投訴之後呢因為今天交通部沒有來"},{"start":12299.423,"end":12313.426,"text":"他們甚至去投訴主管機關但是最後也沒有任何的訊息所以才會投訴到我這邊來所以我覺得除了你們要了解SOP之外我也希望你們針對高鐵公司的經營層這個到時候我們也會用書面質詢今天交通部沒有來請交通部要了解一下"},{"start":12321.869,"end":12336.948,"text":"為什麼在經營管理周會裡面4月9號發生的事情他們到4月30號才提到這個事情而且是因為已經有很多的去爆料他們還說以後要小心一點避免同仁到外面去爆料"},{"start":12337.589,"end":12353.98,"text":"所以若不爆料他們就不處理這個事情所以我才希望說我們今天我們的勞動部我非常的肯定也感謝你們主動的介入調查要讓這些基層員工他們在前線的時候他們在第一線他認為他是安全的好不好可以謝謝"},{"start":12360.168,"end":12376.614,"text":"王宏威委員發言完畢現在請王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在現在請李博義委員發言、李博義、李博義委員不在現在請鄭天才委員、鄭天才委員"},{"start":12379.715,"end":12395.989,"text":"鄭天才委員不在。現在請邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在。現在請楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員、楊瓊英委員不在。現在請陳冠廷委員、"},{"start":12397.317,"end":12415.469,"text":"陳冠廷委員陳冠廷委員不在現在請蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員蔡易瑜委員不在現在請鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員鄭振淺委員不在現在請羅明財委員羅明財委員羅明財委員不在現在請邱若驊委員發言"},{"start":12430.987,"end":12432.828,"text":"謝謝主席 有請周署長請周署長委員好好 署長好我們首先現在看到在去年上一屆第7會期5月18號的時候未還委員會的降低公安事故提升職場安全之具體推動法案專案報告那這個專案報告"},{"start":12457.657,"end":12476.989,"text":"勞動部訂定為兩年期間之職場減災策略。那職場安全健康提升112年到113年,設定為兩年將重大的職災死亡人數降低10%為目標。那至今的執行狀況如何?請署長說明。我們113年是有降低但是沒有到10%,這個我們有再檢討。"},{"start":12478.632,"end":12489.022,"text":"沒有到10%,那你們掌握到的數字是多少?報告委員,我們113年死亡人數是300人,112年是300人,那111年是320人,那今年還有一年,我們想113年,希望能夠再回來控制。"},{"start":12499.051,"end":12524.807,"text":"OK好那今年4月27號的時候勞動部的許部長他也特別提出2030年臺灣職災減半的推動政策那以2030年重大職災死亡人數減半為推動目標那今年也訂了就是很多委員都有提到嘛這個營造最弱打擊年喊出的目標那麼多會給人家善於口號及宣傳而已那署長這邊要做平反嗎"},{"start":12525.627,"end":12548.347,"text":"跟委員報告,一個機關、一個組織、一個政策要設定願景目標,要不然不定義不太的話,大家就不會集中活力來做這樣的進行。那我們2030年是配合國家的永續發展的階段目標,那我們勇敢訂的職災減辦、重要職災使用人士減辦,有很多人質疑我說我們只做口號,但是我們認為說政策支持我們後面的資源跟配套措施就會過來,"},{"start":12549.448,"end":12549.568,"text":"先為委員說這樣回報"},{"start":12575.854,"end":12593.355,"text":"昨天是五一勞動節,勞動部今年常喊安心職場還有安全勞動。至今安全工作環境是勞動朋友的期待還有願景。五一勞動節很多勞動朋友對政府喊的訴求,昨天也提出了很多訴求,那這邊我們治安署是不是要檢討?"},{"start":12594.616,"end":12594.756,"text":"委員會報告"},{"start":12610.64,"end":12636.903,"text":"受傷的勞工或是傷病的勞工我們可以整治跟重返職場的協助這個我們有在做比較好的展開了那整體預防的部分透過我們災保法的規定我們有20%的職災保險費率的挹注到我們預防和重建的工作我們也做這樣子的努力那另外就是有關整體上的安全部分我們也希望透過部會合作來展開因為就勞動部來做其實不太可能包括工程的部分我們工程的主要大宗"},{"start":12637.423,"end":12637.703,"text":"蘇貞銘也提到就是檢察機構"},{"start":12654.542,"end":12668.917,"text":"做檢查之後讓我回報那要如何確保這個檢查機構他每一項的檢查項目都有落實呢跟委員回報那我們的要求是檢察員檢查有缺失要做具體的回報檢查是好的也要回報"},{"start":12669.818,"end":12691.703,"text":"我們用照片或是後續後台的管控比如說這個檢察員到現場他如果只到一樓因為一樓檢查但是他有10層樓樓上要到10樓也做檢查這樣才知道他是檢查了有效性、完整性那當然這樣子會增加我們檢查員比較大的工作負擔但是我們為了追求最弱的防災因為最弱部分要到最弱的現場檢查才是嘛比如說電梯間、開口、施工架"},{"start":12692.463,"end":12693.283,"text":"報告委員我們是監督檢查"},{"start":12712.213,"end":12736.787,"text":"現場缺失他的主要主責是雇主就事業單位我們可以苛責可以處分可以立即停工復工改善但是我們檢查機構的那個成績就看就是我們分項的一些降災的成效各檢查機構要做內部的檢討比如說臺北市新北市高雄市各種都市我們授權勞動檢查機構他們也追求這樣子預防墜落的次項目標是共同成就這樣子墜落打擊"},{"start":12737.466,"end":12737.726,"text":"主席吳主委"},{"start":12748.433,"end":12771.585,"text":"委員你好主委好那工程會還有勞動部都有書面報告都有提到那個公共工程重大職災死亡人數有逐年下降的趨勢那報告中也提到以零職災為目標那請看我們的簡報那近10年公共工程還有工作場所重大職災死亡人數的統計表那今年到4月14號統計是兩人那有沒有信心這個數字可以保持下去"},{"start":12772.245,"end":12788.006,"text":"我們還希望往臨邁進往臨邁進,好那那個我們還有子安署我們國外國內外重大公安事故的訊息專區就只有4件重大事故那請問對重大事故的第一是"},{"start":12789.474,"end":12804.61,"text":"報告委員這是我們職安署的網站重新調整我們希望把國外的重大事故跟國外的重大事故可以做正面的學習那其他的事故會在我們職災地圖那個網站會有揭露但是這個是我們希望說從國外學習比如說我們正在做一件"},{"start":12805.899,"end":12805.919,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":12822.242,"end":12837.161,"text":"希望不要有迷思,就是死亡才算數。傷殘對勞工的家庭也是一個巨大的變故。請問我們主委還有署長,04、03正後有對於我們國家的公共工程做一個盤點跟檢查嗎?"},{"start":12841.537,"end":12859.371,"text":"臨403之後對於相關的民間也好公共工程也好整個都已經盤點過現在都在進入到災害復原重建的階段OK好謝謝我們主委那謝謝國區主委的付出還有貢獻那本席這邊也給予最大祝福謝謝好謝謝署長"},{"start":12864.437,"end":12876.502,"text":"邱若驊委員發言完畢。現在請鍾嘉斌委員發言。鍾嘉斌委員。鍾嘉斌委員不在。"},{"start":12879.346,"end":12901.311,"text":"登記質詢委員均已發言完畢．做以下決定。報告及詢討完畢。委員廖先祥所提書面質詢列入紀錄並刊登公報。委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答覆部分,請工程會盡速以書面答覆。現在審查行政院公共工程委員會預算凍結案計7案,請醫事人員宣讀。"},{"start":12904.174,"end":12918.542,"text":"討論四項審查113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預算凍結案計7案以下依自其行政院公共工程委員會含簡訟決議一業務費預算凍結150萬元書面報告案簡訟決議二公共工程企劃及法規業務預算凍結700萬元書面報告案"},{"start":12925.927,"end":12929.953,"text":"簡訊決議三公共工程技術業務預算凍結300萬元書面報告案簡訊決議四公共工程管理業務預算凍結300萬元書面報告案"},{"start":12937.116,"end":12946.023,"text":"檢訟決議18公共工程計劃之審議與永續公共工程之推動預算凍結50萬元書面報告案檢訟決議19公共工程計劃執行之監督協調及考核預算凍結6萬元書面報告案檢訟決議20公共工程計劃執行之督導協調及考核預算凍結5萬元書面報告案宣讀完畢"},{"start":12965.339,"end":12972.404,"text":"以上7案請問各位委員有沒有意見?請您具現委員"},{"start":12981.385,"end":12998.683,"text":"像昨天台南市的安南區又發生道路塌陷出現一個8公尺大的天空那前天新北市三重也發現了路面的天空那新北市政府到現在還沒有還沒有就是說為什麼查出原因了"},{"start":12999.224,"end":12999.364,"text":"來請說明趕快"},{"start":13037.56,"end":13041.821,"text":"請主委盡速查明相關後續的作為並向林俊憲委員來快速的做報告及說明好那請問各位還有沒有意見沒有意見的話均同意動之提報院會"},{"start":13064.328,"end":13079.885,"text":"針對本日會議做以下決議．討論事項所列113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預算凍結案計7案均同意動之提報院會本日議程處理完畢上會"}]}},{"id":"15873","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15873","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/16eb79f0bb3b77dbe1784ed6585ee25e0f9a65472a0a5ac33be8d109af184be446a30e52926813d95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員柯志恩等17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（詢答及處理，委員郭國文等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-02","start_time":"2024-05-02T08:30:46+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-02T13:57:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":19574,"委員發言時間":"08:30:46 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團對於我們的提案做以下的說明主計總處五月"},{"start":1930.589,"end":1947.761,"text":"一日公布臺灣第一季的經濟成長率概估為6.51%,渴望帶動全年經濟成長率3.57%。但是根據主計總署今年二月所公布的112年全年薪資統計,112年實質經常性薪資、實質總薪資雙雙都是負成長。"},{"start":1956.007,"end":1971.858,"text":"其中,實質經常性薪資是連續三年的負成長,實質總薪資是年減1.04%,更創下11年以來最大的負成長。另外,根據統計,2022年時未滿25歲之勞工全年總薪資中位數為36.2萬。"},{"start":1980.083,"end":2007.978,"text":"三十歲以下的就業資薪資中位數為48.8萬與全體受僱員工總薪資中位數的55.2萬上有一段的差距所以三十歲以下的勞工薪資急需提升那國民黨團為了要解決低薪的問題提出了中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二的條文修正草案"},{"start":2008.558,"end":2025.247,"text":""},{"start":2025.327,"end":2047.862,"text":" bicy 扣抵稅額的年齡從24歲以下放寬到30歲以下可扣抵當年營業勢力所得稅由目前的150%提高到220%以增加中小企業為員工加薪的誘因改善勞工低薪的現狀也讓勞工分享經濟成長的果實以上謝謝"},{"start":2055.455,"end":2059.356,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請賴士葆委員請做提案說明 謝謝謝謝主席以及各位先進我的提案說明基本上跟剛才謝議員提的蠻接近的就是在過去原來在馬英九主政的時候那時候就通過了說中小企業在一定的情況之下"},{"start":2084.306,"end":2112.787,"text":"那企業主如果對員工加薪的話他扣底的費用可以成為乘130%就1.3倍那這裡面就是因為有一些的設定條件包括緊急要到達一定的程度GDP的成長率等等等等就是因為這些條件這些條件也是政府訂的是誰訂的呢?基本上拉牆就是財經澳部基本上是財政部訂的"},{"start":2113.387,"end":2122.79,"text":""},{"start":2123.51,"end":2143.242,"text":"很少很少,少是又少。我們總共中小企業的家屬有120萬家以上。結果呢,申請的幾千家而已啊。然後稅損多少呢?大家以為說稅損算起來平均一年差不多一千萬。一千萬啊各位。不是一千億啊,一千萬啊。所以這個財政部啊,就是驚喜。"},{"start":2147.677,"end":2153.919,"text":"然後拼命把這個中小企業都當壞人一樣,說你這個這樣會不會這個討稅啊、掃教稅啊、掐得太死了,所以沒有績效。那我們現在這個前幾天不是看到主計總組發表的我們前20%跟後20%台灣人的財富相差了將近67倍。"},{"start":2170.845,"end":2194.616,"text":""},{"start":2195.397,"end":2211.793,"text":"讓企業來加薪大企業他有本事他有社會的責任有社會的壓力比較容易對中小企業政府很需要拉把筋很需要拉把筋所以我的內容跟剛才這個國民黨團所提的是幾乎完全一樣了就是原來130我們希望提高到200%"},{"start":2218.78,"end":2236.113,"text":"adequ.年輕的來講24歲以下的這個希望能夠從目前的150%增加到220%以上就是我個人的把這次的提案的精髓跟重點跟各位報告請各位來支持感謝謝謝謝謝我們賴士寶委員現在請楊瓊英、趙偉一併說明兩個提案要職"},{"start":2252.579,"end":2273.626,"text":"謝謝主席,楊瓊英發言。我們針對於《中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二》提出修正草案,本院委員楊瓊英、羅廷偉等16人,我們有鑒於中小企業為我國經濟發展的基石。目前,臺灣中小企業達到98%以上,"},{"start":2276.647,"end":2302.61,"text":"adequate人數也佔全國總人口的八成。在這樣的情況之下,中小企業等因為它的規模較小,所以它不論在資金、技術、市場行銷方面都不如大型的企業,在這樣的情況之下導致薪資普遍的低落。那麼我們為了有效地解決第一心的問題,所以凝聚了中小企業發展條例的第三十六條之二,"},{"start":2305.033,"end":2319.553,"text":"來鼓勵中小企業加薪並增加聘用這個年輕的勞工以利中小企業的發展帶動整個產業薪資的一個競爭力也敬請各位同仁以及行政院來支持"},{"start":2320.054,"end":2341.816,"text":"那麼同時在我們又提出了第36條之四那主要呢就是本院委員楊瓊英等16人有鑒於企業獲利能力為企業員工加薪是最重要的根基那你要讓企業加薪那你就必須要讓企業怎麼能夠願意要加薪除了將我們的產業擴大"},{"start":2343.598,"end":2350.322,"text":"adequa市場機制之外更重要的要怎麼樣協助企業界所以為了加強中小企業從事外部效果較高的人才培訓品牌建立的一個投資所以我們逐步降低了代工的生產利潤微薄的困境所以我們提出了相關法案來獎勵"},{"start":2370.174,"end":2395.555,"text":"主要就是在於中小企業在於投資人力培訓品牌發展以及健全他的會計制度這是非常重要等他的用途如果他的金額百分之三十這個限額內至當年度期的三年內可以來作為這個抵減各年度因應的盈利事業所得稅"},{"start":2396.135,"end":2418.626,"text":""},{"start":2418.646,"end":2426.538,"text":"adequa制定條例的徵修條文的第36條之四本期再強調也就是在第36條之四我們所這個徵定的條文是針對於中小企業業"},{"start":2433.729,"end":2443.032,"text":"賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會第11會期經濟委員會"},{"start":2456.075,"end":2474.913,"text":"第三個是會計制度的一個健全那中小企業當年度前項各款所支出的這個超過前兩年度所支出的所有歸屬經費平均數字超過部分得以50%來抵減資我們希望中小企業能夠加薪給員工"},{"start":2480.518,"end":2506.728,"text":"那麼但是中小企業要如何加薪政府必須要協助在我們整個的會計稅額部分來協助我們所有的中小企業能夠達到三年的面向謝謝好謝謝楊秋英委員現在秋英委員也有提案請問你要做提案說明不用是不是好謝謝那我們現在請經濟部王部長及舊委員及行政院提案版本合併報告"},{"start":2515.682,"end":2522.507,"text":"主席、各位委員,今天針對中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案來審議,僅代表經濟部提出簡單的說明。臺灣的中小企業加數是163萬家,佔全體企業的98.9%。"},{"start":2533.835,"end":2556.837,"text":"就業人數913萬人,占總就業人數80%,是我國經濟發展非常穩定的力量。政府向來非常重視中小企業,也全力協助中小企業改善經營環境。大家對於企業的低薪、受雇員工的低薪跟人力不足的問題非常關切。"},{"start":2558.899,"end":2575.742,"text":""},{"start":2575.922,"end":2598.717,"text":" bicyncy反轉而啟動企業增估或加薪的租稅優惠這樣的階段性任務已經完成了。但是面對全球產業快速的變遷跟轉型,中小企業的人才需求也趨於多元。那麼怎麼協助中小企業來留用人才跟提高基本員工的薪資呢?有檢討現行相關增估跟加薪的優惠措施的必要。"},{"start":2605.862,"end":2615.708,"text":"那在本條例裡面呢,第35條關於研究發展支出的投資低減。三十五條之一,智慧產權作價入國緩客。三十六條之二,增顧或者加薪租稅優惠。這幾個條文都要在今年的5月19屆起。"},{"start":2625.193,"end":2634.958,"text":"有必要針對這些條文加以思考跟檢討。所以本部這一次就提出了刪除增顧加薪租稅優惠啟動的門檻提高了租稅優惠的加成減除率放寬適用對象跟要件並且延長這樣的租稅優惠期間10年的一個草案。針對我們提出的草案簡單做一個說明。"},{"start":2651.047,"end":2662.519,"text":"那修正第二條部分那主要是把有限合夥新增進來當作中小企業的一環。而且它的認定標準由主管機關按照資本額經常僱用員工數等來訂定。"},{"start":2667.003,"end":2693.778,"text":"第二、修正三十五條,就是配合第二條,因為徵定了有限合夥以後,當然也可以適用研究發展支出投資抵減的租稅優惠,相關的辦法會由經濟部跟財政部定之。第三、延長三十五條之一的施行期間,那就配合這次的修法,三十五條之一的內容沒有變動,只是把它延長時間十年。"},{"start":2696.263,"end":2699.565,"text":"adequor然是最主要的修正32條之二。這一條我們做了比較大幅度的修正。第一個是對於徵雇員工薪資的加成減除的部分。除了延長實行期間10年以外,當然這次刪除了"},{"start":2714.394,"end":2744.394,"text":""},{"start":2744.654,"end":2751.598,"text":"第二點就是加薪的薪資費用的加成減除的部分也是延長時間10年也刪除了經濟景氣的啟動門檻把加薪的費用減除率提高到150%"},{"start":2761.123,"end":2788.44,"text":"另外關於基層員工薪資適用範疇,後續也會在執法去做修訂。主要就是參考勞動部每年發布的職業別的薪資調整調結果。對於非主管最高的薪資,會有現在的5萬元,修法之後會調高到6.2萬元,也就是說6.2萬以下都可以來適用加成減除率。"},{"start":2789.581,"end":2807.53,"text":"另外第三十六條之三只是配合產創條例的相關規定做體力一致性的規範。只有同一個事項不可以重複享有租稅優惠加以明定。另外三十九條部分把中小企業政策審議委員會的名稱按照一般的體力改為"},{"start":2811.032,"end":2835.794,"text":""},{"start":2836.55,"end":2845.683,"text":"那修法之後的預期效益呢我們預估在修法之後針對中小企業雇用青年跟中高齡高齡的這個意願會增加至少可以帶動331家的企業來徵僱"},{"start":2851.732,"end":2881.203,"text":""},{"start":2881.203,"end":2906.613,"text":""},{"start":2919.585,"end":2938.28,"text":"好,謝謝主席、各位委員、各位官員、大家早安、大家好。因為本席是會計師,所以今天非常開心來到經濟委員會,針對《中小企業發展條例》第35條、第36條之二及第40條的條文修正草案,這個說明如下。"},{"start":2939.321,"end":2954.486,"text":"而剛剛感謝主席的說明,也感謝部長的說明,因為近年我國人口呈現少子化以及高齡化情形,依據勞動部的調查,105年後15至64歲的工作年齡人口逐漸減少,那中高年齡"},{"start":2955.486,"end":2977.039,"text":""},{"start":2977.159,"end":2993.918,"text":"Judge中小企業僱用24歲以下及45歲以上員工的薪資費用加成減除率增加至百分之一百五十增加減稅誘因,讓中小企業多願意徵雇員工。除此之外,"},{"start":2994.578,"end":3008.671,"text":"則此外,我國經濟情勢由於過去十年間有經歷顯著的變化,及過去緊急反轉鼓勵企業徵顧加薪租稅優惠以達階段性任務,因此修法將中小企業"},{"start":3009.872,"end":3029.701,"text":""},{"start":3029.941,"end":3045.351,"text":"護用多元人才及提升薪資水準。所以最後本席提出修正中小企業發展條例第35條、第36條之二及第40條的修正草案。敬請各位委員支持。我們希望員工加薪企業減稅共創雙贏。謝謝大家。"},{"start":3053.21,"end":3071.778,"text":"我們今天因為藍綠委員還有行政院板也進來但是我們是有一點質疑這麼重大的一個法案我們國發會只請了專門委員我們也給予尊重但是我還是主席才還是要說明這個對於我們國家的一個經濟產業這麼重大的法案藍綠大家都關心"},{"start":3079.542,"end":3092.687,"text":"但是身為我們國家發展委員會是最重要的心臟竟然只有派一個專門委員到我是在這邊也特別提出也請國發會趕快去聯繫你們是不是"},{"start":3096.869,"end":3111.323,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":3112.782,"end":3138.078,"text":"主席、各位委員先進。大家好。今天全體委員會議審查我們行政院函請審議的《中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案》以及大院各委員以及黨團分別所擬具的本條例的相關修正草案,總共有11案。本部呈要列席,僅就這個草案跟本部業務部分報告及說明。《中小企業發展條例第三十五條》、《第三十五條之一》還有《第三十六條之二》"},{"start":3138.758,"end":3154.061,"text":"這些租稅優惠措施將在今年的5月19日施行屆滿。因應國際經貿情勢的變動以及產業發展的趨勢,中小企業當然需要升級來轉型,所以有持續提供租稅優惠的必要。"},{"start":3155.142,"end":3181.321,"text":"經濟部會同本部研議相關條文的修正草案也在行政院本年4月18日函請大約審議本次修正的重點主要是延長上開租稅優惠條文的施行期間從今年的1月1日起到122年的12月31日止並且修正三十六條之二有關增僱員工或加薪薪資費用加成減除的租稅優惠有關修正的重點"},{"start":3182.082,"end":3193.455,"text":"就是我們這次條例三十六條之二的部分說明如下首先為了鼓勵企業增固青年以及提升我國中高齡與高齡國民的勞動參與率以舒緩未來勞動力短缺的問題我們這次修法是刪除了經濟景氣指數達一定情形的啟動門檻"},{"start":3203.106,"end":3224.068,"text":"adequ.新增資創立或者是增資擴展要達到一定投資額的適用條件。這兩個條件刪除以後,其實是整個放寬了我們中小企業能夠加薪適用的租稅優惠的措施。在適用的範圍部分,除了維持現行增僱24歲以下的員工之外,我們也增訂了增聘45歲以上的員工。"},{"start":3226.55,"end":3230.314,"text":"他的薪資費用加成減除的比率由現行的130%提高到150%。至於本條第二項的修正,主要就是為了鼓勵中小企業為了基層的員工來加薪,協助我們中小企業來留用人才,所以我們也刪除了經濟景氣指數達一定情形的啟動門檻。"},{"start":3247.654,"end":3271.305,"text":""},{"start":3271.305,"end":3281.51,"text":""},{"start":3281.687,"end":3304.189,"text":"基本上大家都是為了促進企業增僱員工以及加薪的政策目的。因為我們行政院的版本其實已經有充分考量我國勞動的市場以及企業流用人才的需求還有就是兼顧租稅公平這些相關的面向基本上我們是覺得已經可以合理達成本條租稅優惠的政策目的。"},{"start":3304.589,"end":3327.48,"text":"所以建請各位委員能夠支持。另外就是有關楊委員瓊瑛以及臺灣民眾黨黨團提案增訂本條例第三十六條之四有關人才培訓品牌發展以及健全會計制度這三項支出投資抵減租稅優惠的部分因為這幾項支出本來現行就可以依照我們所得稅法的相關規定來核實認列費用相作為減除。"},{"start":3328.46,"end":3345.631,"text":"而且,現行的相關規定已經適度反映企業的成本,降低企業的租稅負擔。由於這些支出是屬於企業基於一個自立的動機所為的支出,所以在國際間有關相關租稅優惠的措施幾乎都沒有這一類的投資體檢的租稅優惠,所以我們是建議這個條文的修正希望能夠在審慎的考量。"},{"start":3351.674,"end":3370.841,"text":" bicy 已經考量了整個產業發展的需要,以及檢視了租稅優惠整體實施的效益,同時也兼顧了中小企業發展以及租稅公平這些相關的面向,提供了適切中小企業發展的租稅優惠措施,並盡情支持行政院的版本。以上說明,敬請各位委員指教。"},{"start":3373.067,"end":3391.778,"text":"好 謝謝次長的說明就是因為沒有才要制定才能夠協助我們的產業如果我們今天制定修正修定的還是跟原來的一樣那我們今天要修訂什麼好不好我們大家共同討論好不好好 那個國發會有沒有在聯繫國發會現在怎麼樣呢對啊 國發會呢"},{"start":3405.356,"end":3426.975,"text":"一個這麼重要台灣中小企業這麼重要藍綠大家都這麼重要對不對我們的國防會竟然只有派一個專門委員到我們的經濟委員會來他是看不起我們的中小企業是不是可以如此嗎"},{"start":3433.336,"end":3443.306,"text":"台灣如果沒有中小企業就沒有台灣的經濟啊一個國防會可以這樣藐視我們的中小企業嗎?休息三分鐘"},{"start":3640.879,"end":3642.432,"text":"獎項"},{"start":3693.424,"end":3713.233,"text":"好,來接續。我們請國防會跟勞動部的書面報告請我們委員自行參閱並刊登公報。來,那本日議程我們在做宣達前,我們依照慣例有幾項的宣告。"},{"start":3714.793,"end":3730.849,"text":"每位委員發言時間本會委員6分鐘必要時加1分鐘,非本委委的部分的4分鐘。那我們上午10點半截止這個發言登記。我們首先請第一位邱映穎委員請做詢問。"},{"start":3742.683,"end":3742.883,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":3760.439,"end":3761.32,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":3790.179,"end":3809.616,"text":""},{"start":3809.816,"end":3829.472,"text":"adequa當然是我們要增顧員工的租稅優惠現在要增加納入45歲以上中高齡及高齡者為適用的對象那這個增顧員工的這個租稅優惠的加成減除率提高到150%本期的版本是175%部長您怎麼看"},{"start":3834.756,"end":3841.454,"text":"我後來覺得其實包括何欣淳委員提的一個案子是他希望納入到55歲以上。"},{"start":3844.403,"end":3871.852,"text":"那我覺得其實55歲以上都還算是壯年啊都還算是一個非常成熟非常精壯的這樣的一個年代部長我還是直接就我上面提的問題你怎麼看就是說您同不同意如果我們把這個年齡再把它往上提高那第二個我們這樣的一個租稅優惠你們的估算它會不會產生稅損"},{"start":3874.633,"end":3889.377,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":3889.884,"end":3892.506,"text":"那就是說我再拉一個集聚,55歲或者是65歲以上,我們的那個租稅的那個加成減除率是可以到200%,如果再拉一個集聚起來呢,您覺得?因為我們有去算過,譬如說是65歲以上的人,這個相關的"},{"start":3911.002,"end":3912.062,"text":" bicyn 其實臺灣現在65歲的勞動參與率只有9.62%,就是您講的。"},{"start":3933.49,"end":3943.131,"text":""},{"start":3943.524,"end":3964.684,"text":""},{"start":3964.684,"end":3980.431,"text":" bicyn 迴聘這些比較,這個才叫所謂的中高齡,讓他們來發揮他們的專長,在中小企業上面提供一些他們的這個經驗分享,甚至來導入更多的這一些經營的觀念做法。"},{"start":3981.565,"end":4005.88,"text":"是不是有可能讓我們在創造這些中高齡在就業的這個參與勞動參與率能夠讓他上升我不曉得這個你們行政院就是說經濟部或者是有沒有做過這樣的相關的討論兩個問題吼那第一個就是現在的勞基法讓65歲以上可以繼續工作這個目前台灣的機制有了吼那"},{"start":4006.32,"end":4022.235,"text":"adequa法律的修改是針對65歲以上就像委員講讓他再回聘的話給他加成減除這是第一個那第二個呢事實上在勞動部那一邊有非常多的機制針對這個中高齡或者高齡就"},{"start":4024.196,"end":4032.881,"text":" bicyn 您覺得不適合放在我們今天的這個提案裡頭去做65歲以上的,對,65歲以上那個勞動部一定有相關的補助,還有相關補助,對對。"},{"start":4039.844,"end":4064.809,"text":"好,那部長我也再跟您請教第二個問題我們現在在第二個就是跟我們這個法條有關你們講到說限制中小企業最近三年如果有違反環保、勞工、食安等等的相關的法律而且情節重大者經中央目的事業主管機關認定就不得申請此條例的租稅優惠部長我想"},{"start":4065.709,"end":4084.148,"text":"此前一陣子這個所謂的保齡茶室的中毒案大家都非常的關心那在更早之前這個所謂的蘇丹鴻這同一個應該是同一組人馬他創立了時間不同的公司類似像這樣的食安重大食安要件"},{"start":4085.469,"end":4093.296,"text":"請問你們要怎麼查?你們會怎麼查?那如何認定它叫做情節重大?是經濟部自己來認定呢?還是會同其他的部會來認定?我們會請相關的單位來幫我們認定。那目前政府的這個秩序系統,就這個公司有沒有違反法規都有系統了。"},{"start":4104.525,"end":4130.636,"text":"那如果換個名字換個名字換個負責人但實際經營者還是同一批而且您會不會覺得假如我只限制他三年的租稅優惠不得申請租稅優惠三年他其實三年來對他來講或許很短的時間三年之後他換一個人換一個負責人的名字換一個公司的名字又重新再來您查得到嗎經濟部查得到嗎"},{"start":4131.036,"end":4149.803,"text":" bicyn 如果就現在的沒有辦法這樣查那除非是在個案裡面有法院的認定或者是有行政機關的認定才有辦法這樣再去勾結所以他還是有可能會去規避掉這些法律的鑽這個所謂的法律漏洞就是他換個名字"},{"start":4150.503,"end":4172.483,"text":""},{"start":4172.623,"end":4172.944,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具"},{"start":4192.326,"end":4218.647,"text":"第一個,像蘇丹紅這個案子,那因為發現有這個現象,所以目前就是我們把經濟部的商業署把資料整理出來之後給衛福部,那衛福部如果做了處分,那就變成這一片的所有的公司都會被處分了,那就有可以知道有這個記錄了。那三年是現在相關的法規都是定一樣的三年。"},{"start":4221.309,"end":4241.763,"text":"主席可不可以再給我一分鐘,我想要請教一下,如果部長你來不及回答,也沒有關係,是不是可以給我一些書面的記錄。就是我們這個臺美21世紀的貿易倡議進度,其中它裡面有一個中小企業的專章。那我們今天在談到中小企業的發展條例,其實我比較很想知道就是說對於這個東西經濟部的中小企業署,"},{"start":4243.823,"end":4254.646,"text":"如何來輔導我們的中小企業能夠符合所謂的中小企業專章?有沒有辦法來協助他們做提升?是不是請您簡要回答?如果來不及的話可不可以給我一些比較詳細的訊息?這個部分我們在這個專章下面我們已經兩邊至少經濟部的部分已經成立一個委員會這個委員會我們也邀請這個中小企業的這些領袖一直來參加"},{"start":4270.87,"end":4298.749,"text":"閱來怎麼樣來跟美國這邊的中小企業對接然後尋找更多的商機這是還蠻有意義的事情所以你們已經在持續進行當中我們有成立了那也現在跟美國都有很多的不同的產業的一個合作齁那這個合作的時候我們這邊也會讓這些相關的中小企業來參與相關的產業合作如果那個可以說明的部分是不是也給本席一個數字的部分好不好是好"},{"start":4305.681,"end":4308.215,"text":"接下來我們請郭國文委員做體驗說明"},{"start":4316.059,"end":4344.207,"text":"感謝主席、我們經濟委員會、我們各位委員還有在場的王美化部長本席針對中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二提出修正草案的看法是原來的條文其實是有如殭屍條文重看且不能用但是我們就一直期待說我們經濟部所提出的這一個條款內容當中是不是有更精進之處但是就經濟部所提的說"},{"start":4345.647,"end":4369.045,"text":"現在的修正案當中,可能可以造成的運版的可以通過4000個工作機會,然後帶動207家企業加薪,那5850名員工受惠。老師說,就如果修法,我們動用這麼大的修法的成本,耗費這麼多的行政週夜跟流程,而達到這樣的效果,我是老師說,實在是非常非常划不來。"},{"start":4369.845,"end":4394.153,"text":"而就整體的163家的中小企業來說,913萬的勞工相比,這個數字真的是微乎其微。所以我真的覺得目前的院版的版本是在過於保守。基本上我們對加薪抵稅的條款賦予相當高的期待,但是我真的覺得應該要好好放寬,因此本行提出一個相關的修正案。特別是最近我們整個GDP的占比,"},{"start":4394.633,"end":4416.561,"text":""},{"start":4416.681,"end":4434.858,"text":"也就是說GDP的這個經濟成果的共享顯然非常的一個不均衡也不公平而方向上也跟其他國家不一致所以說因此我跟院版的部分有一個主要條文的一個變化跟差異在第一個取消經濟景氣指數要件也就是取消失業率的門檻那將獎勵常態化"},{"start":4437.961,"end":4462.636,"text":"第二個呢也把這個年齡的門檻做一個區隔第一個只要徵聘本國的員工的部分呢減除的比例呢就應該提升為150%但是如果特定對象的部分呢就24歲以下或45歲以上也就是說目前經濟部的條款當中院版的條款當中規範的這個特定對象特定年齡的對象的部分減除的比例更應該提高到200%那這樣的情況底下我相信會相對有誘因啦"},{"start":4466.198,"end":4478.605,"text":"我覺得經濟部不用替財政部太多的考量還擔心那個稅紮存的問題而且最近我們稅收還算不錯所以我認為應該比較用大膽的方式來進行這個加薪抵稅的一個修正才能真正達到他政策的目標以上謝謝好謝謝來接下來我們繼續詢討我們請謝一鋒委員請做詢討"},{"start":4495.424,"end":4505.45,"text":"主席好,我想要請王部長、李市長,還有我們中小更新創署的侯署長。好,請以上三位,謝謝。"},{"start":4508.883,"end":4535.083,"text":"其實經濟部的那個版本除了在36條之二我們有疑慮的部分我其他都是原則上的同意但是我認為就是在36條之二我們剛才也聽到了幾位委員所說其實我覺得剛才在事前的時候我也跟理事長有做一些溝通他們認為說好像過去"},{"start":4535.803,"end":4560.592,"text":"adequ.是提高也沒有辦法促成促成中小企業為員工加薪喔那我不知道這是原因還是結果是你們不願意提高因為我在學校上課的時候連大學生都跟我說他說如果我們中小企業提高就是租稅減免也只是一年而已150%但是他為了"},{"start":4564.053,"end":4583.766,"text":"就是青年加薪或者是為員工加薪是每年都要提撥所以你們只把那個扣底額從130提撥到150怎麼能夠有足夠的誘因讓企業為員工加薪呢?是不是?我們請次長說一下好不好?"},{"start":4586.016,"end":4603.693,"text":"報告委員基本上因為我們以前舊的就是修正前的這個中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二當然是因為原來的門檻適用的門檻相對比較嚴格所以呢可能就是因為這個門檻啟動的條件太嚴格所以之前適用的這個加數不是很多"},{"start":4604.313,"end":4606.916,"text":"adequate to the new year."},{"start":4627.196,"end":4648.626,"text":"他今年加薪的時候只有今年試用嘛,他不可能每年加薪,可是他每年所要負擔的他因為今年度的加薪,未來他所要負擔的勞健保的提高等等都會在今年,那他如果認為說這試算結果沒有足夠的誘因的時候,他就不可能為員工加薪嘛。"},{"start":4649.606,"end":4649.907,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具"},{"start":4671.167,"end":4681.194,"text":"полне不會造成稅損啊。那既然不會造成稅損,為什麼我們不就在36條之二就直接提高?像國民黨的版本,我們就是從130提高到200嘛。"},{"start":4686.438,"end":4708.894,"text":"netesa,如果是30歲以下提高到220%,我認為這不可能造成多少的稅損,但是如果企業願意為員工加薪的時候,就會造成說剛才郭委員所提到的,可能未來我們的薪資佔GDP可以逐年的提高啊,是不是?"},{"start":4709.834,"end":4731.479,"text":"委員剛才講的其實是非常正確的基本上就是當然因為企業但是我們也考慮到就是說因為企業要不要為員工加薪當然除了租稅的誘因之外但是同樣的就是剛才委員有提到就是說因為企業加薪員工加薪以後他相對的有一些相對的成本也會相對提高包含他要替員工提撥勞健保的費率會提高然後另外呢"},{"start":4734.36,"end":4755.043,"text":""},{"start":4755.043,"end":4785.043,"text":""},{"start":4785.724,"end":4788.486,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案。"},{"start":4802.179,"end":4821.926,"text":"是,其實不是說沒有稅損啦,其實還是會有租稅的損失。我知道啦,可是不是很多嘛,其實相對來說不是很多嘛。既然稅損不是很多的情況下,如果我們在這一條稅法裡面的扣抵額度能夠提高比率的話,"},{"start":4823.146,"end":4823.166,"text":"閱讀委員"},{"start":4842.841,"end":4862.763,"text":"adequate 相關的誘因的時候,畢竟我們還有電價的問題,對不對?那你如果沒有在這些經營成本上面給企業誘因的話,企業怎麼樣子為員工加薪啊?對不對?是,也跟委員報告,其實我們這一次的修法也是政府因為已經把130提高到150%,等於就是"},{"start":4864.965,"end":4885.791,"text":" bicyn 公司支付了一定的薪資費用,政府也負擔了將近三成的成本,當然委員如果要,各位委員版本當然會提到這個比例。因為這只有一年嘛,其實企業為員工加薪以後它是每年都是這個,它不可能今年加以後隔年又調回來嘛,是不是?"},{"start":4886.901,"end":4887.301,"text":"議員柯志恩"},{"start":4904.807,"end":4904.847,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":4920.266,"end":4939.473,"text":"我也想要順便問一下,就是在這一次的那個臺美21世紀貿易倡議這裡面,OTN有沒有提到其實對於國內的企業,或者是對於專業的經理人來講,他在意的是雙重課稅,有沒有提到這個相關的?"},{"start":4940.793,"end":4949.617,"text":"三重退稅這件事情不會在21貿易倡議裡面討論,因為臺美的租稅協定基本上一定要透過這個所謂租稅協定的簽署來適用。那個21世紀貿易倡議裡面沒有談到租稅相關。那未來你們會在租稅協定的時候?"},{"start":4959.461,"end":4986.467,"text":"現在是因為那個就是美方他們其實已經有相關的提案在那個也通過了這個參議院的是眾議院眾議院已經通過這個法案送到參議院去做最後的決定那目前就是參議院這邊在做最後的考量那如果說美方那邊參議院已經大家都同意願意修法的話通過的話這個這個法案通過的話其實我們就會跟美方啟動那個相關的註冊協議的範文還有就是後續的程序"},{"start":4987.347,"end":5010.36,"text":"好,我希望我們趕快促成,因為這也是我認為就是說國際法人在這個上面共同會注意到的相關的問題。那我也希望就是財政部的理事長,你應該要帶回去財政部。其實我們三十六條之二或者是召委的三十六條之四,即便是加入的話,"},{"start":5011.4,"end":5012.68,"text":"adequate"},{"start":5039.656,"end":5039.957,"text":"陳婷菲委員"},{"start":5055.606,"end":5072.466,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":5072.714,"end":5099.461,"text":" unemploye 明天這個電業法要進一步二讀要修法要經由立法院來同意未來調整電價要經由立法院來同意那如果沒有的話就要凍結預算未來在審預算的時候要來做一個被個動作那你覺得這樣的一個說法我想部長你在這個位置這麼久了我想你的感覺跟未來如果是這樣的一個處理的話該怎麼去應對"},{"start":5101.186,"end":5101.226,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":5125.066,"end":5139.724,"text":"adequate規劃之後,到大會去討論的時候都還有做一些修改。沒錯阿,部長這是現在的電業法嗎?對,現在電業法,然後現在審查方式。可是現在進步二讀要去修的是,未來電價要送到立法院來審議嗎?"},{"start":5140.785,"end":5155.561,"text":"通過,那你覺得這樣的一個做法,而且他明天就可能要進付二讀嗎?要抽出進付二讀嗎?那在這樣的一個狀況之下,在你的專業角度,你的感覺是什麼?"},{"start":5156.161,"end":5174.579,"text":"我們的看法是什麼?我們當然是認為現在的機制是比較好、比較對的。那因為這個部分就,裡面在審議會又就台電的成本等等的去做考量,然後來判斷要怎麼調整。那如果這個還要到立法院同意的時候,那這個整個的時間,"},{"start":5175.52,"end":5200.043,"text":""},{"start":5201.119,"end":5213.849,"text":"我想國會理性來問政,那我們行政機關努力來做事情。我想為了國家的好,大家應該是不要有這個黨派的這樣的一個建議。部長,這個店家肯定現在開始會炒不完。"},{"start":5217.858,"end":5232.636,"text":"adequate?一定會炒不完如果你們執意就是一定要依照電價委員會的審議來漲電價的話那麼我相信未來在整個立法院一定是炒翻天我覺得還是要溝通啊"},{"start":5233.537,"end":5257.684,"text":"該怎麼溝通還是要溝通因為這520之前跟520之後他所面臨的整個執政團隊的一個態度跟未來的方向其實都有很大的影響所以我還是希望因為總是我們在立法院已經是第五屆了我們看了那麼多沒有溝通未來就是可能"},{"start":5258.985,"end":5259.185,"text":"議員柯志恩"},{"start":5277.585,"end":5289.65,"text":""},{"start":5290.111,"end":5316.067,"text":""},{"start":5316.277,"end":5332.433,"text":"你知道嗎哪有一個工業區新興工業區沒有設污水處理這是什麼地方啊這是什麼狀況你說舊有的OK新的工業區沒有設污水"},{"start":5333.695,"end":5359.377,"text":""},{"start":5359.717,"end":5388.144,"text":"發了一個文說那3月21號已經公告領選的結果所以是由舊的工業區開始包括永康仁德然後把它都因為新興是在候補這是什麼狀態啊那表示我們經濟委員會下去就沒有用啊就因為我們大家知道就沒有嘛所以才拜託我們經濟部要來協助嘛結果還是一樣的答案那幹嘛"},{"start":5389.403,"end":5391.064,"text":"那我們經濟委員會下去幹嗎?剛委員報告齁那這個部分事實上我今天下午我就本來跟同仁約下午會針對去的所有的問題我們會走一遍那怎麼協助那至於委員剛才提到的那個我們對協助涉汙水廠這個部分那如果我們同仁講應該是按照原來的這個規定有一個修建的時間機制那過了之後那未來"},{"start":5417.254,"end":5431.58,"text":"因為這個不會只有一年那未來怎麼樣再增加這個部分我會再跟同仁討論一下部長他是一個新興的工業區你會不會覺得很扯新興工業區沒有污水處理系統這誇張到了極點然後整個都停擺在那裡我們現在在鼓勵大家要設廠結果一個工業區停擺在那裡第二個"},{"start":5444.983,"end":5458.851,"text":"我們看到柳科環保園區廠商協經會的提案李市長的提案然後他說有啊這個3月27號就有做成決議如果有做成決議4月22號還要來我們這個經濟委員會我們李市長還說都沒有得到任何訊息你們這是什麼態度啊給我們的資料就是這個"},{"start":5471.786,"end":5486.96,"text":"委員報告有關那個柳科那個水池的問題,基本上我們要跟那個經發局再跟廠商的聯誼會大家來討論,因為目前來講柳科的供水是直接由烏山頭結廠的管系直接供水都沒有問題,那廠商擔心的是缺水的時候,"},{"start":5487.58,"end":5489.962,"text":"就是缺水啊,因為有蓄水池啊,你有蓄水桶,有蓄水裝置,結果都用不到。是,所以這部分我們要跟經發局跟廠商聯誼會來討論,怎麼樣來改善這個說法。這個我們政府開前去做的呢,有好笑嗎?政府開前去做,結果沒在用。"},{"start":5505.655,"end":5528.731,"text":"包括原來這個部分是市政府的設施啦,後來我們有跟他談,後來接管,所以接管這個部分我們跟經發局跟廠商聯理會來討論,後來怎麼改善,這個部分我們會來做一個處理。還有另外一個,就是我們現在私人開發的工具台南很多啦,但是就是那個入權的部分,公共設施的管理,"},{"start":5529.631,"end":5557.005,"text":"所有就是上面踢下面下面踢上面部長那天講得很清楚我告訴你光剛剛三個問題我約五月六號早上九點我們一次去把它處理清楚因為部長說你要重新走一遍嘛那走一遍之後五月六號我們到現場我要答案我覺得我們都在拼速度拼效率"},{"start":5558.097,"end":5571.067,"text":""},{"start":5571.485,"end":5599.034,"text":"我覺得這是不對的我們其實非常重視那樣的一個溝通那相關的議題呢我們也會我先請同仁先研究5月6號9點我會排三場那再麻煩我們就一次把它看清楚啦然後你們的答案在哪裡啦再麻煩一下否則我覺得經濟委員會下去得到的資料卻是這個問題還有一個缺工現在中小企業全部都缺工"},{"start":5601.027,"end":5611.398,"text":"adequum要怎麼解決這也是大問題謝謝好謝謝我們繼續請林黛樺委員有請部長我們再請王部長"},{"start":5623.581,"end":5635.756,"text":"在正式質詢之前本席想知道部長你什麼時候為我高雄市林園區中油工業區下南方的中山地區的這個"},{"start":5638.217,"end":5657.005,"text":"賴芷芷議員"},{"start":5657.679,"end":5662.622,"text":"我們的新市卿因為在院裡面那院裡面還有一些問題在詢問我們你覺得這個案子應該要跟市卿更新掛鉤嗎那因為對中友來講你有沒有把上次本席所提到的這一塊土地是因為工業區下去之後所造成的污染而導致它農地不能農用農地也不能種植而導致要做相關的工廠"},{"start":5683.697,"end":5687.34,"text":"議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。」案。議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。案。"},{"start":5717.542,"end":5728.717,"text":"厲不需要得到補償?他是工業去下去去讓人家講,那如果你連這個都不敢答你怎麼講社會企業啊?你怎麼敢在本席這邊講ESG啊?你憑什麼?你這個部長你憑什麼?"},{"start":5733.303,"end":5748.976,"text":"你如果連一個社會企業你只會照稿念只會照著行政院給你的稿念那你不用來當部長啊今天我是講人民的心聲因為企業工業區下去所造成的環境汙染林園工業區多久了林園工業區多久了來回答下面的人給部長訊息吧"},{"start":5759.64,"end":5764.792,"text":"四十年了,部長。四十年的工業區造成人民土地的污染。"},{"start":5766.26,"end":5780.091,"text":"而且是閒置!完全沒有產值欸!你覺得這不應該負起社會責任嗎?中有不應該負起社會責任嗎?工業局不該負起該有的社會責任嗎?請回答是或不是?如果是!那就應該要繼續做吧!裡面這塊土地好好的認定這塊土地應該要做怎麼樣的一個這個"},{"start":5787.236,"end":5788.798,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具"},{"start":5805.438,"end":5806.919,"text":"你心裡的價值要有,你的社會企業的這個價值,社會企業價值在做什麼?"},{"start":5832.777,"end":5841.882,"text":"即使中游最後是由中游來協議架構這對他也是ESG啊怎麼不會是ESG的項目呢這也是一個鼓勵的方式啊部長你做了四年欸難得有長官願意挺你挺四年欸"},{"start":5851.209,"end":5859.054,"text":"請回答吧,你這句話,有下去會刊,你說你今天,剛才,剛才陳飛誠委員講說因為你下去會刊,所以今天你要做這個會議的處理,好,那本期這個也請你會刊了。去年呢,有會刊過啦,然後也通過質詢啦,今天再次的質詢啦,那你什麼時候再討論?我要正式的會議結論啦。"},{"start":5878.374,"end":5879.435,"text":"我今天站在這邊我就是逼你"},{"start":5906.138,"end":5913.961,"text":"你什麼時候開這個會議?再次正式開會議?討論社會企業的ESG要怎麼做?討論社會企業對於環境衝擊該有什麼作為?"},{"start":5919.708,"end":5938.576,"text":"我下個禮拜找一個時間。下禮拜五前喔。好,正式會議紀錄出來。會議紀錄要有。不做黑箱作業的。如果你私下討論那個叫做黑箱作業。這是本席有公文給你,兩次包括上次跟今次也有下去會刊的。"},{"start":5939.701,"end":5966.877,"text":"好,所以是我再問一次什麼時候你召開會議再討論?對,我會下個禮拜找一個時間跟同仁討論。好,現在進行今天的正式質詢。經濟景氣的寒冬政府如何因應?好,這個前提是什麼?我們一直講說臺積電本國是以臺灣這個國家是以出口導向的國家。所以呢,我們除了電子、直通訊、半導體相關的產業一枝獨秀的出口,其他的產業"},{"start":5968.097,"end":5984.701,"text":""},{"start":5984.781,"end":6010.091,"text":"好,全球經濟的展望這都是公開的資訊在年初的時候這個公視新聞網也有提也有講到世界銀行針對2024年的初估全球經濟成長率會從去年的2.6降到2.4呈現連三年的衰退的趨勢臺灣就是以出口為導向許多產業在去年是連續好幾季都出現出口訂單衰退的除了"},{"start":6011.051,"end":6028.515,"text":"剛才講的這個資通訊、電子以及這個半導體相關產業是一枝獨秀之外,其他的出口定然是衰退的。甚至部分員工都有放無薪假,放無薪假不是本席講的,這個是勞動部年初的新聞稿就有七大產業是放無薪假的。"},{"start":6028.735,"end":6035.319,"text":"好,這個上次諮詢我有提供出來。好,市場憂心了。本國的狀況,全球的經濟展望是這樣的走緩。以諸葛偉導向的台灣,2024年今年是否還能夠保三呢?全年度是否保三呢?要提醒的是,二屋戰爭、以巴戰爭等戰爭持續中,若戰爭的衝突擴大,一定會對全球經濟造成強烈的衝擊。"},{"start":6053.248,"end":6058.832,"text":"adequacy台灣出口訂單也很可能會持續衰退,出口訂單如果衰退持續擴大,經濟部如何讓經濟成長率能夠全年飽散或者降低衰退的幅度。"},{"start":6068.459,"end":6079.324,"text":"好,那我們中小企業的困境是什麼?我就以臺經院這一張的資料庫,這也公開訊息兩張圖。第一張是金屬製品,這是跟我高雄市非常指標的產業,構建業。我就以這個金屬產業當中這十年來,中小企業金屬製造業在2014到2020的"},{"start":6087.188,"end":6096.053,"text":" bicyncy一時是屬於第一名的,一直到2021的時候,達到景氣高峰了。有了這個景氣分數是16.85,景氣的這個燈號是黃紅燈呈陽生的。好,2021年之後,到達高峰之後呐,呈現了"},{"start":6104.858,"end":6108.2,"text":"所以疫情短短數個月蔓延全球120個國家,造成全球經濟嚴重衝擊,而各產業的經濟是難以估算損失的,導致2022、2023景氣再度轉為低迷。"},{"start":6121.906,"end":6142.609,"text":"好,那這個的另外這張圖呢也對應了這個是相關的景氣訊息圖對應剛才的這個扣件業的這個景氣的訊息是一樣的。疫情過後因缺工缺料原料物原物料的上漲貸款利息的調升等各種的因素導致成本高漲許多中小企業。"},{"start":6143.47,"end":6153.537,"text":"有苦說不出,也只能苦稱甚至觀察對於國內產業遇到的經濟景氣低迷,經濟部你們對中小企業做了什麼事呢?好,爬書一下,你們呢這個也針對呢這個疫情過後全球產業啊"},{"start":6160.422,"end":6164.005,"text":"朝向這樣的目標在邁進,低碳減排,智慧化的管理,生產設備自動化,而且深化ESG的經營理念。產業升級已經是全球的趨勢勢在必行,而產業升級它要做什麼呢?"},{"start":6177.376,"end":6186.763,"text":"adequate 人事成本研發技術購買機器設備都需要投入相當多的資源成本而現在中小企業遇到什麼問題你上面要朝向這個世界趨勢當中所提出的補助方案我們中小企業遇到什麼問題三個第一個缺乏撰寫計畫書的專業人才"},{"start":6198.672,"end":6214.144,"text":"adequue沒有足夠人力跟人力進行研發。第三個機器設備過於昂貴了因為要升級啊。所以呢這是業者無法順利推動產業升級的主要原因。這是本席希望你把這三個原因看好聽好記好。"},{"start":6215.965,"end":6240.182,"text":"好,業者一直苦於接不到訂單,又要推動產業升級,中小企業是臺灣的經濟命脈。資本是不如大企業的雄厚,需要政府的大力支持。好,現在你們針對中小企業雖然有以大代小的補助方案,產業低碳科技應用補助計畫。好,你們有這個計畫。這三年112到114補助38,平均一年是1%。"},{"start":6240.862,"end":6250.759,"text":""},{"start":6252.475,"end":6278.049,"text":"好,那這個呢,中小企業呢,是百萬加一百五十幾萬啊。好,那增多、周少,通常一百五十幾萬是包括這個整個科技業。好,那當然這個中小企業佔了百分之九成啊。好,那所以呢,這麼規模,這個增多、周少的情況之下,這樣的計畫是什麼?大、大小。部長要讓你知道,魔鬼就出在這個細節當中。"},{"start":6279.932,"end":6287.756,"text":"你這個所謂的38億啊是大帶小 要嘛是一間大的帶四間小的 要嘛就一間大的帶十間小的"},{"start":6289.124,"end":6312.075,"text":"部長,如果這個案子下去,你覺得誰會拿最多?當然是大的啊!那個一帶四的四、一帶十的那個十,根本連麵包學都拿不到啊!是,通常都是規模較大的公司拿到較多的資源,剩餘的小公司真的看得到吃不到。再加上審查機制,學者專家的學理專業的審查,"},{"start":6313.676,"end":6327.667,"text":"對於實務是有落差的,造成資訊不對等。好,審查機制嚴謹固然是好,卻會讓我中小企業望知卻步。如何建立一個有效的審查機制本席建議?補助從寬,查核從嚴。我們現在是補助從嚴,查核也從嚴。"},{"start":6334.312,"end":6355.01,"text":"所以根本沒有辦法補助我們中小企業者啊。幾乎西半部啊,包括我們昭緯,這個我們都是最很重視,像昭緯也是都對中小企業很著力、很支持的。台中也好、高雄也好,他們的供給區、我們的構建產業都會遇到這個問題啊。好,所以本席有具體的要求。"},{"start":6360.09,"end":6385.401,"text":"為務實提供中小企業升級期度過寒冬我請你們檢討產業低碳科技應用的補助雖然今年剩下11億建議直接補助中小企業了不要再以大代小了讓政府的補助租稅優惠的方案讓中小企業直接受益怎麼在ESG減排製造的鏈接能夠直接的提升最後第二個"},{"start":6386.201,"end":6409.351,"text":"gines部也請你們重新檢討中小企業申請科技專案的審查機制應該以心力為主防弊為輔要聽好心力為主防弊為輔你們現在是怎麼做以設備其中你們很多項其中針對設備的使用費你們既然是用直線折就60個月好那一計劃使用期限給予補助好這個講起來有點小複雜你們回去問清楚"},{"start":6412.452,"end":6412.472,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":6432.168,"end":6452.539,"text":"那如果他是買國產化的設備,朝全額補助一帶動台灣整體的經濟。好,來,部長您稍微問一下。好,那部長再請你書面資料答覆給我們,相識跟委員說明,謝謝。委員提的那個相關的事情。好,請你書面資料再答覆給委員。好。謝謝。好,接下來我們請鄭政權委員請做詢談。"},{"start":6463.432,"end":6466.16,"text":"主席好,我想請一下王美花部長我們再請王部長"},{"start":6472.751,"end":6492.76,"text":"部長好因為這段時間其實我們對於整個電價的問題討論很多啦我剛剛聽到有執政黨的委員期許你做一天和尚敲一天鐘因為離520剩下兩個多禮拜啦那本席其實希望是因為電價這個問題為什麼會鬧得這樣沸沸揚揚禮拜二的院會的時候還用59比50的時候通過一個動長的一個決議就是因為"},{"start":6500.503,"end":6522.875,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6522.935,"end":6540.51,"text":"那麼您還在部長這位的當中的時候,我也覺得您這邊也許也應該要多做一些努力。那我這邊要特別講,我先提幾個數字,其中有兩個數字也跟我們今天要修的那個中小企業發展條例其實會有關。112年,整個台灣的經濟成長率只有1.42%,是14年來的最低。"},{"start":6549.079,"end":6563.728,"text":"然後112年貧富差距到6.15倍是12年來最大。然後112年實質經常性薪資連續三年負成長。然後112年全年總薪資創造11年來的最大負成長。112年12月工業生產指數年減3.99%連續19個月負成長。"},{"start":6579.1,"end":6581.923,"text":"這些數字就是要告訴部長為什麼電價這麼關鍵"},{"start":6586.889,"end":6614.343,"text":"光明新主委他說:「當我們成長10%的電價的時候,後面影響的成本波動會高達2%到3%之間。所以我們認為整個的電價就出在了一個能源政策。所以本席剛剛一開始就希望部長能夠多做一些好事,讓台灣的經濟能夠有更好的發展的一個動能。另外一個部分,"},{"start":6615.083,"end":6636.54,"text":"整個綠電政策最近台南地檢爆出來的立陽光電案更是讓所有的民眾氣到不行一家公司快過小二甲的狀態然後非法去申請"},{"start":6638.399,"end":6658.257,"text":"adequate 111 件查到目前為止,還有15件還沒有查,還有19件還沒有查完。為什麼發生這狀態?因為從民進黨當中的行政院顧問谷聖輝新竹人啊,他的公司總部設在新竹市民進黨的黨部啊。"},{"start":6660.29,"end":6668.157,"text":"然後跟我們經濟部能源署的組長林文信串在一起去影響台南市政府的顧問"},{"start":6669.784,"end":6677.286,"text":"然後去影響...我今天只是要跟你們講說為什麼大家對於整個電價動漲會這麼樣子的堅持就是因為希望部長你在部長任內的時候剩下兩個多禮拜能夠讓能源政策好好的去"},{"start":6700.492,"end":6725.888,"text":"那你這邊你要為那個林組長去辯護什麼我說你本身是學法律的你之後在他訴訟過程你可以幫他很多的忙可是目前我們看到的起訴書當中就是讓大家非常的跳腳那這個部分呢剩下兩個多禮拜我希望說部長對於台灣能源政策的調整是會有一些功能的那我接下來就繼續講我們今天要特別講的中小企業發展條例的修正草案"},{"start":6727.069,"end":6740.738,"text":"我這邊也直接提到一個狀態因為剛剛有提到說這幾年整個薪資走勢其實薪資的成長性非常的低我剛剛也直接提到了這兩個數字"},{"start":6742.159,"end":6768.153,"text":"包括了實質薪資還有失資經常性薪資都是出現負成長的一個情況那我們今天的修法除了要延長中小企業加薪抵稅10年然後放寬條件然後包含了刪除景氣啟動門檻那麼提高租稅抵借的減免的優惠那麼新增45歲以上中高齡也可以適用這些部分基本上"},{"start":6768.933,"end":6783.985,"text":""},{"start":6783.985,"end":6787.809,"text":"adequate to the reduction rate, the reduction rate is now 150%."},{"start":6787.809,"end":6792.675,"text":"The reduction rate of the general staff is expected to increase to 200%."},{"start":6799.002,"end":6829.002,"text":""},{"start":6829.002,"end":6850.862,"text":""},{"start":6851.042,"end":6875.153,"text":"那這邊的時候呢我們在2018年已經變成了高齡化的一個社會那預計2025年明年就會進到一個超高齡的一個情況那整個臺灣的一個人口紅利已經快速的流失但是我們就發現引髮族就業的情況退離的情況其實很普遍我這邊再提到一個數字就是"},{"start":6876.513,"end":6901.746,"text":"勞動部華統計台灣45歲到50歲中高齡的勞動參與率比韓國、日本、美國都差不多可是在55歲以後就快速的下降55歲以上就快速的一個下降所以本席在這邊的時候想請教一下部長你認為我們中高齡的勞動參與率偏低主要原因在哪裡?"},{"start":6904.466,"end":6920.584,"text":"在目前的統計的資料我們的勞參率確實在65歲以上跟其他的國家比較低一點但是我們也看到另外一個部分就是65歲以上再就業比例其實"},{"start":6922.926,"end":6951.338,"text":"議員非常低啦在目前台灣的狀況下齁那這個是所以我在想說在整個出生率這麼低的一個情況之下齁那我在想說需要有更多的一個政策的一個支持啦所以今天在審這個中小企業發展條例的部分的時候我們才會希望齁把這個減除率齁能夠提高鼓勵鼓勵企業幫員工加薪然後能夠讓更多"},{"start":6952.509,"end":6952.729,"text":"閱讀委員賴士葆"},{"start":6982.745,"end":7008.823,"text":"接下來我們請鄭天才委員請做詢答。主席、各位委員、邀請部長還有中小"},{"start":7010.589,"end":7026.544,"text":""},{"start":7029.384,"end":7040.928,"text":"經部今天的報告裏面提到我國中小企業加數約163萬家,佔全體企業98.90%,就業人數約913萬人,佔總就業人數80%,是我國經濟發展穩定的力量。好,我們看昨天,這是昨天主計總署的報告,在財政委員會昨天的報告。"},{"start":7059.574,"end":7071.141,"text":"就GDP分配面結構觀察,受雇人員報酬所佔比重在民國70及80年代平均約為49.3%,90年代為45.5%,101到111年間為40.6%,介於43.1%"},{"start":7090.609,"end":7118.079,"text":"adequate to 146%之間。我們從這個來看受雇人員報酬所佔的比重在低減而剛才談的整個我們的中小企業是佔最多數所以這個勞工也就在這個地方最多好我們看剛才"},{"start":7119.161,"end":7146.022,"text":"主計總署的這個報告裏面,從七十一到九十年,民國七十一年到九十年,受僱人員的報酬,這個佔整個它的這個一個結構,來看的話,四十九點三,營業營業,三十點七,甚至三十一點七,三十三點八,"},{"start":7148.188,"end":7153.812,"text":"然後我們看這個111年或110年,就剛才也講了這個數字。受雇人員報酬43.14、43.9,然後營業營業增加36.4、34,比這個民國71年到90年的都來得高。所以我們要去參考這個。"},{"start":7173.737,"end":7201.837,"text":"所以我們給中小企業決定要協助協助了之後要怎麼樣讓他能夠也照顧這些我們的受僱人員也就是勞工這個不是這個部分經濟部勞動部我們政府都應該去重視所以這個部分你看看我們看這個最右邊生產及進口稅"},{"start":7204.292,"end":7204.312,"text":"〔記者註冊〕"},{"start":7234.178,"end":7235.639,"text":"閱讀委員裏面的報告"},{"start":7258.609,"end":7288.609,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7289.349,"end":7317.017,"text":"到底這樣的數字,行政院版,到底是不是合理?好,剛才委員同仁也有提到,24歲,以前的24歲早就工作了,沒有錯啊,現在的24歲都還要念書啊,還在大學啊,還在研究所啊,還在找工作啊。"},{"start":7319.304,"end":7347.693,"text":"所以你還是維持這個。然後45歲以下,現在都高齡化了,少子女化了,到底對不對?我們協助企業,要協助,但是勞工,怎麼樣能夠也被照顧?有沒有考量?所以這個部分,部長,"},{"start":7349.013,"end":7367.401,"text":"署長、我們勞動部的同仁,真的跟我們的現在的這個社會勞動力的結構不一樣啊。部長要不要說明一下?"},{"start":7369.203,"end":7393.015,"text":"謝謝。第一個45歲以上這個部分其實是放得非常寬也就是說只要是你新聘一個45歲以上的那你就可以得到這個加成減除率我知道那個部長我的意思是說第一個24歲以下要進場的還在念書還在工作還在念書了24歲以後"},{"start":7397.094,"end":7412.527,"text":"然後差不多也是45歲他本來就會一定會工作啦然後到底應該怎麼樣要有一些分析的數據就我們整個臺灣的勞動的那個年齡的結構"},{"start":7419.451,"end":7445.999,"text":"恐怕要有一些很精準的分析所以我知道你這個我都知道你的用意我知道但是到底這樣子是合不合理有沒有符合我們現在的勞動力的結構這個部分是真的是需要去好好的去協助中小企業是應該的"},{"start":7447.335,"end":7464.856,"text":"但是在這樣的過程當中,要不要另外其他的條文說這些後例怎麼樣去照顧勞工的薪資?這個都必須要一起通盤的去考量啊,可以嗎?"},{"start":7465.675,"end":7465.715,"text":"賴主席。"},{"start":7496.01,"end":7516.182,"text":"對。今天我把昨天主計總署的報告呈現在給經濟部部長、中小企業署的署長。你就可以看得出來受僱人員的報酬是在降低的。營業營業是升高的。以上。謝謝。是。謝謝。好。"},{"start":7524.434,"end":7526.395,"text":"接下來我們請張祺凱委員請做詢答。我們再請王部長"},{"start":7559.581,"end":7560.084,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7561.428,"end":7588.346,"text":"立法院通過國民黨的董長跟我們臺灣民眾黨的環長,現在看起來,經濟部我們請的也是白茶夾子掃,也是要掌是不是?這是不是藐視國會跟新民意呢?能不能,例如說你來報告啊,像我們臺灣民眾黨的提案,非常理性、務實、科學啊,就是說你來報告完之後,針對最近發生的弊案,例如說立洋,"},{"start":7589.811,"end":7608.558,"text":"這個閉案、光電閉案這太嚴重了,檢察官都講不法利益所的91年兩千六百億,那你現在要起訴60幾個光電的這案子,你來把它解釋、說明清楚,對不對?第二,針對我們能源政策、針對整個電價的結果、還有台電買電的這錢,我們不是說不讓你過,你來說服我們大家,"},{"start":7609.588,"end":7612.349,"text":"這樣就夠了,剛才陳廷輝都說他有溝通啊,不要發財去就知道,好不好?你現在起來吧,你來把他講清楚。溝通我們都樂意,本要的這些的資料我們也都非常非常樂意提供。"},{"start":7629.178,"end":7635.142,"text":"但是電價的部分,那經過審議會,那按照現在的法律來執行,我想這個還是讓台電..."},{"start":7640.724,"end":7662.27,"text":"這個光電閉案這是定律拜國都要起手的啊,這都是新的案子啊。就我們經濟部,我們都可以來說明,我們沒有問題。好不好,我們繼續要,不要懷茶驚十十啦。沒有,我們都願意來說明。剛剛連民進黨立委都知道說要溝通,要不要這樣,老蔣這樣硬碰硬。這樣對不起人民啊,現在顯然人民還有很多疑問,對不對。立法院光是經濟委員會很多委員都有疑問啊,好不好。"},{"start":7663.274,"end":7674.327,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11屆第12條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具︰"},{"start":7683.12,"end":7706.423,"text":"大庭店不算停電,准是太平嘛,你就說沒有蓋牌。媒體,所有大的媒體都說你們是蓋牌的。可是你們後來我發現,你們經濟部還發了一個《台電始終嚴格遵循國際標準進行供電的可靠度統計》。寶定,你教經濟部,你們真的都是用了國際標準進行嗎?"},{"start":7711.872,"end":7735.746,"text":"國際的這個標準同名的大家遵循的就是國際IEEE,對不對?你敢遵循這個?你等一下來,我給你看,來來來,你看一下。國際的IEEE,大家在網站上面可以看到,它的標準是什麼?它的單位是什麼?每一年一戶幾間,對不對?它的單位是不是每一年每一戶幾次?"},{"start":7737.95,"end":7764.846,"text":"是不是?國際的標準它大概是兩項啦,一個是SETI一個是SETI啦。對啊,可是一般用的標準是這個嘛,你先把這個東西蓋牌啦,所以你出現大停電全部都不算停電啊。博定來來,給博定回答,博定你講一下,在平安問你啊,你說518大停電算一蓋,啊,國際要用的分母是那個耶,你現在要去做,"},{"start":7765.964,"end":7768.305,"text":"為什麼815592萬戶為什麼出來是0.553次的戶根每年?那台灣的總戶數多少?"},{"start":7792.247,"end":7813.174,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：事由：審查：事由賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：事由賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：事由賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案："},{"start":7822.017,"end":7839.498,"text":"我上禮拜跟你講的,蔡英文任內平均跳電次數加上大停電是民國102年到105年2.2倍,跳電時間是2.6倍。這個圖只要把大停電放回去,這個圖有錯嗎?你們怎麼發了一個聲明說你們才是國際標準,我這個不是呢?"},{"start":7840.419,"end":7863.158,"text":"按照這個國際標準,一一就是啊。請問湊在哪裡?標準是一致啦。標準是一致的。委員講到的停電的次數,當然停了多少戶只要超過一分鐘,台電都算。那委員在講的停電的影響的satisafing,他會看的是停電的戶數跟停電的時間。所以台電在網站上..."},{"start":7867.401,"end":7875.492,"text":"五十二萬戶跟五戶當年算出來的東西都不一樣啊!不然你現在去做獨立董事,你看到這個東西分母都弄錯的話,欸這財務報表會出狀況欸!巴委員,你在我們網上上看到就是國際上這樣算的啊!所以我們都有列出來啊!"},{"start":7885.893,"end":7913.523,"text":"國際上這個是剛剛給你的跳回到前面一張,他的單位就是左邊這個啊,每一年每一戶每一次啊。是,我們在網上上也是這樣揭露啊。對啊,啊你們把大庭店,把815變成一次,你的戶到哪裡去了?次數的統計它是一次,但是它對在SATISFY的影響是不一樣。所以你把戶弄掉了嘛,大庭店弄掉了,所以就變成戶就沒有了嘛。沒有,815也沒有弄掉,網上上你看得到,它國際上的做法。有兩種,結果今天你要再多多,真相只有一個嘛。"},{"start":7914.967,"end":7919.654,"text":"國際上用的是保護放進去,你保護拿走的都是真相,來看下一張,來來來,現在還有一個大問題,你們這個,你們現在拉著,一直在講國際,來來,再來再來,來。"},{"start":7927.864,"end":7955.79,"text":"你們一直講,這經濟部的新聞稿對不對?是不是?這新聞稿對不對?沒錯吧?依照國際IEE1366的標準,人為的疏忽跟天災等重大的大停電事故,統計上因為離開這個群組,所以記錄沒辦法去改善。所以你講的一句話很重要,這你經濟部說的喔。國際、人民,包括韓國的韓電、日本的九州電力,都是把重大事故排除在外面。這是你寫的對不對?"},{"start":7957.762,"end":7986.084,"text":"法委員他們的做法有不同的方式啦,有些國際的電業他會納進來。你說日本九州電力跟你們是一樣的,你們用國際標準,我給你看,本席特別上了日本九州電力公司的網站,大家現在讓開,大家現在剪進電腦上去看,我給你看右下角這個,你剛才說你們的重大事故,紅胎跌宕,大庭店都沒剩,"},{"start":7987.116,"end":8014.426,"text":"右下角這個是日本九州電力的,右下角這個土地名下上面。影響的包括什麼?紅胎、地震,對不對?他們跟你一樣嗎?保衛。但是你有保證一樣嗎?你的新聞稿,你的經濟發傳新聞稿,你說我跟日本九州電力公司是一樣的。我現在給你看,日本九州電力公司跟你就是不一樣。"},{"start":8015.743,"end":8017.004,"text":"你看九州電力公司多麼誠實。颱風、地震、重大的事故有影響。你看人家說2022年"},{"start":8047.468,"end":8067.726,"text":"他們停電的時間每年每戶多少時間?115分鐘幾次?0.15包括電力颱風都有影響來來來我再給你看下一張可是你看左邊是人家日本的九州的現在這邊是你們台電的你們台電目前呈現的是這一張"},{"start":8068.888,"end":8094.02,"text":"你跟他有一樣嗎?你們把大庭店蓋掉了嘛,所以你跟人家不一樣,結果你還是拉人家說日本九州電力,欸,日本九州電力公司會不會來抗議啊?委員,巴委員,我們在網上上其實所有的數字都有公布啦。欸,有啦,你們弄一個小小小小,然後你就用右邊這一張嘛。那個字體也沒有比較小啦,委員,都是一樣的字體啦。這大家都可以公平,小的非常多,而且你們新聞稿都在強調右邊這個啊。"},{"start":8095.681,"end":8119.886,"text":"你們都是大停電、不算停電以後的啊。來啦來啦,我們用比較理性、務實的。我都給你看這個數據對不對。我拿的都是你們台電的資料跟人家日本九州的清清楚楚啊。這都是真的嘛對不對。來,看後一張。真正的圖應該這樣啦。對面是你們台電自己做的。你如果真的要跟日本的九州電力一樣,你這兩個圖都要改成右邊這個啦。"},{"start":8121.448,"end":8125.509,"text":"五、中小企業發展條例四、中小企業發展條例五、中小企業發展條例六、中小企業發展條例七、中小企業發展條例八、中小企業發展條例九、中小企業發展條例十。"},{"start":8144.554,"end":8154.76,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11屆第12條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條"},{"start":8170.169,"end":8182.718,"text":"那你單一的個別的事故的那個部分確實是發生了可是你這個趨勢是要告訴說每年的努力在電網韌性在設備的更新上有沒有進步也不是說蓋掉因為他那個的人為操作因為這個也是我們參考國際上我把這個圖送給台電啦"},{"start":8195.131,"end":8215.123,"text":"你們至少把這個右邊這個圖放上去好不好。你們現在都要跟你講,你給民眾看的那左邊,欸,多好多好,然後次數多少,時間是,都是變好的。那事實上就,就電力的韌性。他這邊有個高峰起來對不對,當然109年又有高峰起來,你就是把這四次的大停電把它放上去,學人家。"},{"start":8215.964,"end":8243.107,"text":"閱讀者:「日本九州電力的好不好,不要弄到日本九州都要來看。」閱讀者:「那再請行政部門的話。」閱讀者:「抱歉抱歉我最後做個結論,我們看後面這個。」閱讀者:「好所以,你的新聞稿經濟部新聞局黃色這地方。」閱讀者:「國際上如韓國韓電日本九州電力等都重大事故也沒有呈現在他網站上面。」閱讀者:「你要跟人家道歉欸,人家有呈現對不對,有沒有。」閱讀者:「我剛給他看看有沒有呈現,你說沒有。」"},{"start":8245.626,"end":8251.05,"text":"你們要不要跟人家道歉啊?這兩個問題耶!我們再確認一下,因為我們看的是他年度的報告,那這個剛才委員講,我們再回去看一下他放的位置。我聽說這不是內部啦,這是你們報告的?你們報告的新聞稿勒?"},{"start":8264.921,"end":8270.443,"text":"你們發這個新聞稿是要否認我上禮拜講的我上禮拜的東西依據你們的數據所以完全你都承認嘛沒有錯嘛對不對第一個我現在是講兩個很重要的問題你講人家日本九州"},{"start":8280.908,"end":8280.928,"text":"閱讀委員會長"},{"start":8298.698,"end":8299.919,"text":"接下來我們請呂毅林委員請做詢答,謝謝。"},{"start":8333.985,"end":8335.776,"text":"謝謝主席 請王部長我們請部長"},{"start":8343.08,"end":8364.461,"text":"市長,今天我們經濟委員會特別排了中小企業的發展條例的修正,因為我們看到整個我們中小企業的低薪問題非常的嚴重,尤其昨天是五一勞動節,我們也看到我們中小企業的白皮書上在2022年的台灣中小企業就有一半"},{"start":8364.701,"end":8391.544,"text":""},{"start":8391.764,"end":8407.419,"text":"полне相差一萬元。這是我們必須要來調整加薪減稅,這是刻不容緩的。我們尤其是在本席在去年的時候特別對於中小企業發展條例的三十六條之二"},{"start":8407.839,"end":8409.601,"text":"Judge 3 提出了這些建議,就是說在連續6個月的失業率要達到3.78%,這一項我們看到你們這一次也特別在這個前提之下,"},{"start":8422.637,"end":8449.94,"text":""},{"start":8450.458,"end":8455.939,"text":"部長,你們準備好加強宣導,那未來會大概增加多少加來申請呢?"},{"start":8456.61,"end":8461.373,"text":"是,那在我們這個加強宣導確實是一個很重要的一個配套。那這個我們一定會跟財政部一起來讓這個更多的中小企業知道這個好的措施。我們預估在修改之後那個新顧的這個部分呢可以增加這個331家然後有這個3900人的適用。那這個的稅務財稅的減損呢可以有7億多的這樣的一個"},{"start":8486.067,"end":8509.616,"text":"賴芷芷議員"},{"start":8509.676,"end":8516.139,"text":"adequate 總處在111年的統計收入裡面來看,未滿30歲的話大概在53.6萬,30到34歲的話在69.2萬。這個情形看了差距上,我們是不是可以提高年齡層,不要在24歲以下,24歲還在讀書,是不是應該在30歲以下提高這個年齡?"},{"start":8534.583,"end":8546.272,"text":"他們三十歲以下還是年輕人啦,但不准能夠多聘用年輕人。二十四歲還在讀書啦,所以我們建議你們可以研議一下提高到三十歲以下好不好。"},{"start":8554.761,"end":8562.545,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第12條之二條文修正草案．立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案．立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案．立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案．"},{"start":8577.892,"end":8603.353,"text":""},{"start":8608.415,"end":8620.781,"text":"厲法院有監督行政單位我們的決議你並沒有辦法去尊重去執行的話那這樣子不是就是擺爛嗎?"},{"start":8625.177,"end":8648.072,"text":"因為這個按照現在的電影法規定那確實我們的這個審議會也審議通過那4月1號也開始執行所以就這個相關的規範來講我們確實也應該因為我們立法代表民意的代表民意的代表就反映民意民意都需要我們政府能苦民所苦所以我們動掌了店家做出了決議我們行政權被你們這個行政單位來踐踏了"},{"start":8653.126,"end":8659.635,"text":"事實上我們這一次的挑戰已經做了這個非常的限縮,所以我們在今天也會需要越來越加預算。"},{"start":8671.581,"end":8694.851,"text":"接下來我要跟你討論的就是部長在今年的3月22號特別我們桃園市政府針對於廢紙這三家SRF發電廠的這個廠商包括是我們的立方跟我們的柯林衛跟立江這三家進駐到桃園科技工業園區這個是我們經濟部"},{"start":8698.473,"end":8723.718,"text":"adequate因為你們收回了推薦函所以我們師傅才會做出這個決定那這三家的SRF的專案入園就已經不完備了所以同時也表示廠商未來有可能會提出行政的救濟也就是訴訟來跟你對駁公堂那但是這一切的爭議起源的就是經濟部你的推薦函部長你師傅還有印象這三家"},{"start":8726.118,"end":8726.458,"text":"短短短短短"},{"start":8755.771,"end":8759.793,"text":"那因為在當時的部分我們是告訴桃園市政府說入園的許可是按照桃園市的相關的規範那經濟部是推薦那像委員講的這個是推薦那他沒有一個拘束力那所以在這個部分我們是認為讓這個事業廢棄物可以好好的來用所以我們經濟部的立場環境部的立場我們當然是推薦"},{"start":8781.701,"end":8787.524,"text":"所以部長你的意思是說沒有法律效力沒有法律效力你幹嘛多此一舉來送這個推薦函還有政策的表述呢?那因為在當時討論的過程當中對於SRF的相關的這個效益的部分那確實我們有開會討論那認為這樣的除了去化四月廢棄物種它事實上也減少相關的污染那對於這個SRF"},{"start":8806.835,"end":8810.038,"text":" bicyn 其實是一個比較好的方式,讓整個沒有經過打包的事業會自然保持好的。"},{"start":8824.349,"end":8851.508,"text":"而且這三家的入園許可跟前面兩家的建造還有它的排放權都是在鄭文燦時代一手促成的張上正一上任之後才會擋下第三家的這個建造而且最重要的是鄭文燦一開始是不同意的他不同意的話經發局那時候三家經發局在2018年2019年的時候都陸續發函給桃園市政府是否可以入園當時的市政府的經發局特別說"},{"start":8852.449,"end":8873.319,"text":""},{"start":8873.459,"end":8896.381,"text":"最重要的是還有能源警發給他們的再生能源的發電設備同意備案的文件也就是這個設備的建造是同意的這個最後還在你12月23號的這場會議中也決議要核發給這個備案同意的這個文件給這個廠商所以市政府是被動同意的"},{"start":8897.946,"end":8924.66,"text":"應該不能這樣講齁就是說對能源局來講他有沒有符合這個SRF的相關的證照這個是我們本來中央局管就要去決定的那至於我們按照相關的現在再生能源法的規定按照環境部他對SRF要求的這個能效的部分我們是來做確認他有沒有符合告訴桃園市政府說這個這一些的部分按照中央的規範可不可"},{"start":8926.121,"end":8928.363,"text":"賴士葆等19人擬具〈中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案案〉案。"},{"start":8951.42,"end":8970.75,"text":"所以現在因為是民意反彈、民意不等支持,因為有污染的餘力,所以臺北市政府現在才把他擋下來。那你們現在還一直發言說,如果說沒有參考的、必要性的話,那我就收回這個推薦函,就不用再表述了,不用再參考了,而且你讓他們"},{"start":8972.236,"end":8998.265,"text":"自請來就決定這不是甩鍋啊當時不是你的專案會議你為什麼拍專案會議呢?還推薦函呢?農業局還要發給他們的建造呢?所以請現在廠商他未來可能會提出訴訟也請我們的經濟部你們要承擔下來這個責任不要讓我們的觀音人、桃園人來為你錯誤的能源政策來買單"},{"start":9001.598,"end":9002.058,"text":"請楊瓊英召委質詢。"},{"start":9033.866,"end":9033.986,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":9048.897,"end":9074.509,"text":"adequate成功的這個軌道繼續來支持我們的中小企業那你拼命的點頭所以我們繼續來討論我們也知道受僱人員的報酬率GDP的比例1990年是51.04那之後的規模他就不斷的在縮小顯示勞動者在經濟成長果實的分享他的比重是一直在萎縮你同意這個論點嗎"},{"start":9077.019,"end":9103.777,"text":"這個其實是跟整個國家的發展的狀態有一點不太一樣好,有一點不太一樣我就要告訴你我們一直在說不管是我們經濟部的預算、工業局的預算相關中小企業我們要多分配用分配兩個字其實是對中小企業是非常的不禮貌但是我們已經卑微的要求要好好的照顧中小企業你應該可以認同這個觀念吧"},{"start":9105.498,"end":9107.88,"text":"所以我們也根據主計總署的失業率的這個資料我們看到年齡結構來看年齡在24歲以下的失業率是第一名最高"},{"start":9123.55,"end":9149.312,"text":"那其次是25到29歲那你為了要怎麼樣有效的來降低年輕人的失業率協助年輕人協助企業所以我們理當要從根源開始你認不認同這個觀念這就是為什麼我們對24歲以下覺得要給他加成減除的原因好加成減除到目前為止給你的答案就是如此還是這麼嚴重第一名還是一樣是24歲"},{"start":9151.769,"end":9162.475,"text":"第二名還是一樣是25到29歲表示你的政策是有調整的必要你認不認同啊?要不要調整?要不要調整?要不要調整?要不要調整?對,要不要調整?"},{"start":9168.458,"end":9182.867,"text":"我們尊重委員的意見,但是我們...尊重我們的意見,那你就是要調整啊!因為我們授權給行政部門在做,但是答案是達不到人民的需求啊!那行政部門應該是有為啊!有為什麼?有為去調整你的政策!同不同意這樣的觀念?我們等一下討論的時候,會跟委員在做說明。當你的KPI達不到的時候,也不滿意的時候,那你要不要調整你的政策方向?"},{"start":9196.527,"end":9196.928,"text":"要不要調整?要不要調整?"},{"start":9213.854,"end":9231.603,"text":"因為你如果都不調整,那我們就不用談啊。你如果要調整,我們好好來談。這是一個觀念的問題。再一次請教,當你的KPI達不到社會上的需求的時候,我們要不要就目前的政策來做調整?請教部長。"},{"start":9232.979,"end":9235.442,"text":"請教部長要不要?請教部長要不要?有沒有討論的空間?有沒有討論的空間?請問有沒有討論的空間?"},{"start":9247.386,"end":9247.686,"text":"我們等下討論再說明。1990年是多少?"},{"start":9271.92,"end":9297.256,"text":"我們GDP的比重攀升至29.82021年36.4所以我一再強調我們經濟得到的果實的比重分享在勞工它是越來越萎縮所以我剛剛也說了24歲以下是失業率全國第一名24到29是失業率第二名我們沒有理由不去照顧這些人所以本席要請教我們中小企業的加薪"},{"start":9298.237,"end":9320.905,"text":"adequ.增加僱用年輕的勞工所以本期提出了中小企業的人才培訓品牌發展健全會計制度等也就是在我們的三十六條之二跟三十六條之四我請你來支持好不好我請你來支持好不好你把中小企業顧好他才能夠去照顧去加薪他的員工嘛"},{"start":9321.752,"end":9341.312,"text":"可不可以?好不好?三十六條之四的部分剛才財政部有做詳細的說明那這個部分是不是在主條討論的時候我們再進一步詳細的說明?部長因為我們待會會主條討論大家都知道但是呢我還是希望你朝著這個方向來協助我們的企業協助我們真正的這個"},{"start":9343.133,"end":9354.539,"text":"這個年輕朋友怎麼樣讓他們失業率不要那麼強?本席現在告訴你的是我們先把觀念,如果你的觀念是矢口不換,如果你的觀念是不更改的,那從而討論。"},{"start":9357.034,"end":9374.445,"text":"所以我還是希望聽到到目前的狀況以及目前的政策是有討論的空間有沒有是我們等一下可以主條來討論是好可以討論那我們待會主條討論接下來本期要請教你4月30號電價4月1號起平均的調漲11%平均調漲11%那立法院通過了停止調漲的決議你會不會停止調漲會不會暫緩調漲會不會"},{"start":9387.679,"end":9403.311,"text":"會不會?會不會?這跟中小企業也很相關喔!你連330度以下你都漲了喔!請教!會不會?會不會調漲?目前的電價調漲是已經在施行了。那你立法院通過,那你會不會調漲?"},{"start":9405.089,"end":9415.053,"text":"我們還是要按照法律來執行。我們還是要按照法律來執行。我們還是要按照法律來執行。我們還是要按照法律來執行。我們還是要按照法律來執行。我們還是要按照法律來執行。"},{"start":9434.218,"end":9449.744,"text":"會不會同意?如果問我個人,我是覺得這不是一個好的方式啦。那你有什麼方式?民眾苦民所苦這麼苦,你有什麼方式?全國的民眾到目前為止,行政院撥補一千億,也是人民的納稅錢啊。那民眾這麼苦了,左手也我們的納稅錢,右手也漲我們的價。你叫民眾怎麼生活?"},{"start":9456.88,"end":9474.389,"text":"所以你如果...那你不是好的方法我請問你還有什麼好的方法可以協助我們你如果不讓他這樣事實上是反而是用政府的經費會去撥補更大的大用戶的...部長你現在的說法沒有解決問題的方向你只有在對幹我沒有解...我沒有不解決你只有在跟民意對幹"},{"start":9475.47,"end":9480.574,"text":"我告訴你本期已經告訴你能夠健全啊所以我們可以有更迂迴的共同討論你同不同意來討論我們都可以是都可以啊因為你一直說依法嘛你一直說依法所以依法我們就給你一個有所本的依法你同不同意可以多一點討論空間同不同意委員要怎麼樣的資料什麼我們都同意但是"},{"start":9504.152,"end":9508.655,"text":"為什麼我要什麼資料?我跟你在討論!電駕審議之後可以有更廣廣的空間將民意納入!可不可以?可不可以?你也對不起我們台電的員工!我們整個電力!"},{"start":9532.216,"end":9555.351,"text":"要怎麼樣能信電網去調整我們的能源政策要怎麼樣去調整你們到目前為止光光依你們的方式KPI是達不到的達不到的時候本來就是啊你達不到我們要怎麼樣去討論啊你們還是堅持你們的目前的狀態就苦了老百姓就苦了老百姓怎麼辦部長我還是苦口婆心的告訴你"},{"start":9561.533,"end":9575.965,"text":"今天我們的中小企業產業如果撐不住,臺灣不知道會呈現什麼樣的樣態。就是我本期非常的憂心,民眾這麼痛苦,只有請你緩漲,暫緩漲。"},{"start":9582.079,"end":9594.129,"text":"你還是不願意,你告訴我們有所本,我們也幫你有所本。敬請你支持,讓我們的民眾可以好好生活,讓我們的產業可以好好的去蓬勃發展,好嗎?"},{"start":9607.834,"end":9627.274,"text":"謝謝接下來我們請蔡議委員請做這個詢答那我們因為中場不休息那我們中午12點也不休息所以敬請各位這個行政部門所有的這個人員如果有必須要去這個托類的那請自行謝謝來蔡議委員"},{"start":9635.415,"end":9643.837,"text":"謝謝主席。那我們是不是有請我們經濟部,我們部長。好,我們再請部長。還有我們財政部的次長。我們再請財政部次長。"},{"start":9646.394,"end":9671.899,"text":"好 委員好部長好部長我們今天在討論針對這個中小企業那延長他們的租稅優惠那我們主要的一個重點就是在徵僱員工那針對他的一個24歲以下的青年員工或者是徵僱45歲以上中高齡的員工的話那我們就會提高這個租稅優惠從過去的130%"},{"start":9674.599,"end":9698.319,"text":""},{"start":9699.181,"end":9727.002,"text":" bicyn 將近五千萬的一個稅損。五千萬的稅損,但是他創造的就是給不管是青年勞工的就業嘛,或45歲以上的一個就業。所以這樣的稅損,基本上我們認為說為了獎勵中小企業,所以政府等於是少了這一塊的收入,因為有這個費用,這個加成嘛。少了這樣的一個,他們的創造的效果是更好的。"},{"start":9727.867,"end":9739.496,"text":"是。部長您的判斷是這樣嗎?對沒錯。那我再具體建議齁那如果是這樣的情況之下有沒有可能我們再增加一個級距也就是說你只要增僱65歲以上"},{"start":9742.831,"end":9764.433,"text":"就是說65歲以上照理這一群人是已經退休也不用限65歲就是說已退休者那我們再把他徵雇回來工作那徵雇回來工作這主要有一個好處就是說你看他回來他退休金是可以繼續領但是他可以繼續提供工作那企業勒要必須提撥6%"},{"start":9766.015,"end":9790.879,"text":""},{"start":9791.087,"end":9812.467,"text":"好,那這個就兩個部分啦齁。一個就是在台灣65歲以上還繼續在工作,這是一個齁。那這一次的修法是針對說,像委員講的,如果把65歲已經沒有在工作,把它回聘回來的這個部分。那我們去看統計就是65歲以上再回來工作的占比非常低。"},{"start":9813.127,"end":9842.023,"text":"所以這個部分我們評估是有增加一個級距的話事實上那個效益不是很顯著那反而我們去了解的情形就是說45歲甚至到55歲這個期間如果是要被新聘或者是徵聘這個部分效益是比較高的所以部長我要問一下就是說我們現在的規定是徵聘45歲以上那他指的是說他還沒有到退休年齡"},{"start":9842.891,"end":9867.533,"text":"對,都可以,只要是你這個企業你去徵聘一個都可以,那如果是已經退休的呢?也可以,都可以所以本來這個45歲以上就包括我講的65歲以上你把他徵聘回來我們一樣是有這個150的一個稅捐優惠所以我剛才說的意思是這樣那如果這樣我們再加一個級距如果你徵聘的是65歲以上"},{"start":9869.515,"end":9891.465,"text":"那徵聘人是65歲以上或者是已退休的人,那可能是不是這個費用加成讓他再卓度再往上提高。那增加誘因,剛剛講的是說65歲回來工作的是少的,那可能是誘因不足嘛。如果企業可以針對這樣65歲以上又適合他們可以工作的,"},{"start":9892.345,"end":9892.465,"text":"賴主席賴主席"},{"start":9914.853,"end":9915.394,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":9915.394,"end":9925.784,"text":"我知道,那大概就是一個月補助一萬五左右嘛。那現在看起來是65歲以上再回來的那個比例比較少,確實比較少。 bicyC."},{"start":9925.784,"end":9934.313,"text":"還是很少,就是說縱使現在勞動部有開放這樣的補助,退休就退休,沒想到都要做了,沒關係,至少我們這個45歲以上,"},{"start":9936.015,"end":9936.795,"text":"那我再問下一個"},{"start":9946.007,"end":9970.866,"text":"我們知道因為這幾年來這一個企業之間的一個調薪的一個幅度那大概這幾年都有提高首先是我們政府我們政府也有帶頭包括公務員包括國運事業事實上都有在做調薪所以公部門有帶頭那企業之間也有逐步在做這樣的一個調薪但是我們看到這個調薪的幅度"},{"start":9971.787,"end":9996.915,"text":"事實上差不多都是3%左右很難有比較更漂亮的一個數字說我們今年對員工的調薪有比較大幅度的提高所以事實上像在日本或者是韓國他們在面對第一提高基本工資但是提高基本工資的措施之後日本跟韓國他們就會採取第一個是租稅優惠"},{"start":9998.075,"end":10020.693,"text":"你看日本、韓國都有租稅優惠。租稅優惠我們今天在討論這個中小企業大概也是朝向租稅優惠。但是日本、日韓他們又有另外叫做現金補貼的部分。現金補貼就針對他們的正式勞工提高的薪資的部分,政府就直接給你薪資補貼。"},{"start":10022.467,"end":10049.793,"text":"另外的一個補貼,未必叫做薪資補貼,它可能會用其他的方式來做補貼。經濟部我們有考慮說為了再把勞工的薪資的提高,以及在我們知道現在貧富差距事實上也有在擴大的趨勢,為了這樣我們可以針對為了鼓勵企業提升員工的薪水,讓我們給他直接的補貼制度嗎?"},{"start":10051.452,"end":10079.425,"text":"目前台灣是沒有就薪資的部分來直接補貼但是政府在對中小企業部分有各式各樣的一個協助包括相關的補助也好還有專案的一個協助也好等等那所以台灣的方式是比較從這個能夠提升他的中小企業的這個轉型升級從這個角度是非常多的經費在協助"},{"start":10080.686,"end":10087.801,"text":"是啦,當然我們面相這麼多行啦吼,所以也不會說剛剛我講了只有租稅優惠,但是我總是說的吼,"},{"start":10095.127,"end":10110.224,"text":"補貼制度還是有它的一個優勢在,因為第一,清澈。對企業來說,他會很清楚的知道說,我只要每天加薪水,政府會給我那樣的現金的補助,那對我的誘因就更大了。"},{"start":10110.845,"end":10140.845,"text":""},{"start":10141.105,"end":10150.497,"text":"大概經濟部這邊要給個鼓勵,那我想請教一下部長,那你接下來怎麼看第二、第三、第四季,我們未來的一個發展呢?"},{"start":10151.414,"end":10151.434,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":10174.716,"end":10178.639,"text":"adequacy因為AI的這個部分帶動了臺灣不僅是半導體還有伺服器還有相關的供應鏈確實有帶動對出口有很好的加值那不過在其他的傳統的產業部分我們還是會努力來協助傳統產業的增長那這個部分我們都樂觀但是我們省慎來因應"},{"start":10197.972,"end":10217.638,"text":"好,那我想就要加油啦。我們第一季的大概還有高於南韓跟新加坡,都高了他們將近一個百分點以上。所以我想這個第一季的表現我們台灣很突出。我們希望這個今年都可以保持這樣的一個好表現。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。接下來我們請洪孟凱委員請做選擇。謝謝。"},{"start":10231.529,"end":10234.63,"text":"昨天5月1日勞動節,今天馬上感謝早委就排審,我們希望能夠加薪減稅。我覺得經濟部長這邊來"},{"start":10253.783,"end":10282.008,"text":"議論能夠為經濟發展來實際的回饋到勞工的部分我覺得這是有意義跟有代表性的那不過呢在今年本來預計5月19日落日的這個法案我們現在也希望是說能夠展延10年可是過去到現在其實大家一直強調的是說提出這樣的政策誘因是不是不足而導致於說沒有辦法有很大的一個這個量能那現在我們也看到是說有要再提升可是提升的部分"},{"start":10283.046,"end":10301.135,"text":"觀眾謙虛"},{"start":10301.135,"end":10327.715,"text":"我不知道是勞動部有沒有給你正確的一個資訊或是說你們部會裡面溝通因為我在衛黃委員會問勞動部啊勞動部部長一直把這個高齡再進入等於是所謂的壯世代的這個勞工人力啊當成是一個解方之一啊就希望是說我們能夠來希望能夠這些高齡者或是說這個退休者能夠再進入企業能夠來解決缺工的問題否則的話現在缺工問題有多少人部長知道嗎"},{"start":10329.776,"end":10358.292,"text":"確實各個行業都有提到這個困擾。確實啊。衛環委員會勞動部部長親口講現在缺工的人數差不多30萬到40萬全台灣各行業那如果說缺工的話你就沒有辦法有經濟活絡嘛因為畢竟工的部分是一個很重要的一個動力那我們現在在講如果說以針對現在的這一個行政院的版本也就是經濟部的版本這個150%的部分會不會還是誘因不足?"},{"start":10359.741,"end":10363.384,"text":"在這個勞動部還有我們看到的數據其實去鼓勵那個45歲以上其實是非常好的一個部分讓他因為我們也聽到45歲他要重新再就業常常碰到這個困擾但是65歲以上第一個像委員講勞動部確實現在就有補助了他不需要用這個"},{"start":10381.715,"end":10400.384,"text":""},{"start":10400.504,"end":10416.951,"text":"五十五歲到七十我覺得都還是算是一個健康的一個狀態。更不用講是說我們講到現在其實退休年齡他還是切有很多是五十五歲以上就開始在退休生活了。對那如果就這裡的這個加成減除的這個金額跟財政勞動部那邊直接給這個一萬塊的這個補貼來講"},{"start":10423.934,"end":10424.114,"text":"adequ."},{"start":10424.114,"end":10440.019,"text":"實際上那個金額還比較多,那所以我們看到是說即使給這樣的一個……希望有誘因。部長,如果說本席這邊在講是說有沒有可能在針對極具的部分,就是說45,你現在講的是45歲以上,但是我們現在講到是你們的版本只有150嗎?"},{"start":10440.759,"end":10440.899,"text":"賴主席"},{"start":10461.522,"end":10474.568,"text":"問一下你的態度因為本時有看到現在G7七大工業國他們發表他說2035年逐步淘汰藍莓發電甚至報導講說是這是COP28"},{"start":10477.83,"end":10502.354,"text":"以來最大的創舉2035年七大工業國已經宣誓要淘汰藍煤發電那我們現在台灣2025非核家園之後八成都是火力發電那還有G7這一次有特別提到不再發表反核的言論也認為核能是乾淨的能源部長您怎麼看?"},{"start":10503.271,"end":10514.498,"text":"第一個就這個煤的部分這是為什麼我們一直在講增氣減煤希望能夠我們做得到嗎2035年那第二個我們做不做得到2035年我們也淘汰燃煤在2035年的時候事實上我們大部分的燃煤機組我們確實都會把它提早除役那大概應該剩下這個林口的就剩下本席現在所居住的地方林口火力發電廠三部機組燃煤發電"},{"start":10532.43,"end":10554.868,"text":"因為委員也很清楚我們超超臨界第一個這個確實是比較新的機組這個是比較新的機組那第二個這個機組的這個公務的改善藍媒就是藍媒現在我想七大工業國也沒有哪一個國家他們不是用這種比較新的機組但是他們現在已經正式的宣示宣戰淘汰藍媒發電"},{"start":10557.009,"end":10580.583,"text":"стати.2035年逐步落實藍莓發電的淘汰,不再用藍莓發電。台灣,你剛剛講了,2035年到了之後只剩林口火力發電廠還是藍莓發電?會不會變成是說現在我們跟不上世界的趨勢?有沒有檢討的空間?部長,你只剩十幾天就在這個任期上了。我不希望你還是用這種政治意識形態。"},{"start":10581.403,"end":10590.756,"text":"本席強調因為當然這個是要跟之後再討論本席今天提出來因為這個是最新的G7的這個發表你有看到嗎?"},{"start":10592.028,"end":10621.449,"text":"他發表其實就兩大重點阿2035淘汰藍莓發電以及宣示核能不再反核宣示核能是乾淨的電乾淨的能源來源他說不要再去提出反核的意見啦齁那他這個是他們做出來的決議那因為在G7我們的理解因為包括德國等等的那他們就是做成一個共同決議那這個是G7的一個決議我們也看到了是"},{"start":10621.849,"end":10638.35,"text":"所以你認同他們的決議嗎?這是G7的決議我們當然會注意各國的發展的情形。經濟部長當然七大工業國七大工業國發表聯合發表的一個宣誓那我們的經濟部長認不認同這七大工業國的方向?"},{"start":10639.875,"end":10641.076,"text":"議長,世界的趨勢,為什麼我那麼的重視"},{"start":10660.273,"end":10686.052,"text":"就是因為我們都生活在地球村。大爺講COP26、28這樣子一路下來為什麼世界現在全世界大家一起要對抗這所謂的這個溫室效益。2050精靈碳排就是認為是說這環境破壞的是不可逆的也因此人類都在思考怎麼樣維持現有的生活力下還可以降低對環境的衝擊。能源是選擇我再次強調一而再再上我都強調"},{"start":10686.912,"end":10715.811,"text":"每個人都要用電所以每個人都要負責,能源是選擇。所以我們現在的選擇都會取決於我們對於環境的破壞以及對於下一代子孫留下什麼環境給子孫。既然人家已經宣示了2035有停止藍莓、淘汰藍莓,我們當然應該要去重視,當然應該要去規劃。另外我們也認為現在核能已經被七大工業國認為說它不再反核,認為核能是乾淨的能源,我們也應該要尊重世界的潮流,這是趨勢。"},{"start":10717.412,"end":10741.397,"text":"這也應該是我們專業的文官的判斷,不要再用政治意識形態綁住我們自己的手跟腳。我想這是我給經濟部、同仁所有的忠告,謝謝。好,謝謝。那接下來齁,我們先休息兩分鐘,因為那個...好,我們休息兩分鐘,因為他從一早..."},{"start":10745,"end":10754.049,"text":"則三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。」案。則三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。案。"},{"start":10769.974,"end":10778.831,"text":""},{"start":10780.759,"end":10805.708,"text":""},{"start":10811.523,"end":10837.089,"text":"而三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案。而四、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案。而五、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案。而六、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案。而七、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案。而八、本院委員賴"},{"start":10843.131,"end":10865.674,"text":""},{"start":10865.674,"end":10878.148,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":10880.371,"end":10883.672,"text":"我們待會要堅持,要200多天,開玩笑。"},{"start":10912.756,"end":10917.5,"text":"二、本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：審查：事由：審查：事由：審查：事由：審查："},{"start":10954.676,"end":10968.86,"text":"好來我們繼續開會請邱志維委員謝謝主委有請經濟部王部長我們請部長"},{"start":10977.422,"end":10979.183,"text":"電價計費公示和電價費率審議委員會是什麼時候決定要成立?"},{"start":10995.117,"end":11011.805,"text":"是這個那個店家的審議委員會是在事實上是之前立法院有要求要成立這樣的2015年在第8屆的時候第8屆是誰執政啊?第8屆是2015年是誰執政?馬總統的時候馬總統執政那國會是誰是多數黨?當然是國民黨嘛對不對那是本期第一屆的時候"},{"start":11022.987,"end":11043.82,"text":"大概民黨只有40席,所以絕大多數全部是國民黨。所以2015年1月20號,就是在第8屆第6會議,決議要通過電價計費公示,而且要成立電價費率委員會,電價費率審議會。這是國民黨時代決定要成立,對不對?"},{"start":11047.742,"end":11069.91,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案．事由．審查．議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案．事由．審查．議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案．事由．審查．議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案．事由．審查．議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展"},{"start":11071.141,"end":11082.89,"text":"在把它入法在2017年的時候,修電力法49條,把這個所謂電價費率審議委員會把它法制化嘛,對不對?這個是按照2015年1月20號第18屆第6會期第18次會議的決議,才把這個所謂電價費率審議委員會把它法制化嘛,對不對?"},{"start":11100.124,"end":11127.453,"text":"國民黨自己主張要把這個店家審議把它制度化。那當時為什麼不直接把它修到說留國會同意就好?換了位置、換了腦袋。做一個部長齁,先讓我念給你聽。心啊!矩陣啊!先念給你聽齁。這邪魔不入。邪魔到處都是。"},{"start":11129.946,"end":11154.513,"text":"為己﹑為個人利益﹑為政黨之私﹑挽顧國家的法治﹑挽顧之前所做的這些承諾﹑所做的之前﹑自己所答應做的事情﹑自己所做過的事情﹑可以全盤否定。這就是邪魔。作為行政部門的主管,你對你的這個政策跟法律,你在捍衛到底。"},{"start":11157.11,"end":11184.856,"text":"不是不能修,但是當時是誰制定的?是馬英九時代,國民黨執政的時候,國會是國民黨在多數時候所通過的決議。他現在把說這個審議委員會的決議無效,必須要再修法,要禁錮二讀,把他送來立法院,禁錮國會的同意。那政府由立法院來當就好啦。"},{"start":11186.834,"end":11204.394,"text":""},{"start":11207.145,"end":11230.753,"text":"莫名其妙,這個大約國會議員自然是自己所做出的什麼事情,這個政黨之前所做的什麼事情,完全在他這個為了逢綠必反,逢中必暖。這種政黨啊,這樣讓人家覺得很看不起。今天討論一下"},{"start":11233.267,"end":11252.122,"text":"這個我們的經濟成長是贏韓國,但薪資成長是輸給韓國。是有原因的,我們也輸給通膨。央行有建議啊,應該比照日韓的提升薪資的對策,我們看日韓怎麼提升。從這個補貼、從這個稅務去處理。稅務的話要請財政部,請次長。"},{"start":11260.748,"end":11288.469,"text":"我們的服務業以中小企業為主。薪酬制度當然不比南韓市以大企業為主完善,這基本上我們的這個體制上的問題。基本公司的調漲幅度遠低於南韓,我們用南韓做比較。我們沒有辦法超越他,我們就起碼可以把他們好的地方可以學習嘛。所以央行的建議說,你要提高基本公司,提高我國勞動的份額,這點很重要。"},{"start":11289.622,"end":11297.841,"text":"這是經濟部的工作,也是勞動部的工作。透過租稅約會來鼓勵中小企業加薪。來問一下市長。"},{"start":11299.574,"end":11325.172,"text":"你們現行有哪些注射優惠可以明顯的提供很大的誘因讓中小企業願意把員工加薪?目前就是我們今天討論的中小企業發展條例。這樣子如果按照今天你們的這個版本或者委員提案版本通過我看過版本大同小異的這樣子中小企業就有強烈的誘因可以願意為員工加薪嗎?"},{"start":11326.373,"end":11351.479,"text":"當然這個租稅優惠是其中一個誘因,但是因為中小企業要替員工加薪,其實還有一些他自己本身企業的考慮。因為第一個就是企業本身有沒有賺錢,他如果沒有賺錢他當然不會加薪。第二個就是說他繳的稅負到底高不高,如果他繳的稅很輕的話,那因為要適用這樣一個租稅優惠,他可能必須要準備相關的資料,或者是說需要有一個申請的程序,他也許會考慮說需不需要去提出這樣一個申請。"},{"start":11353.038,"end":11369.786,"text":"所以現在是低薪的問題,這低薪問題造成說衍生了很多後續性的問題,你就沒有辦法去買房,你就沒有辦法去結婚生子,因為經濟條件不夠嘛,就變少子化,少子化也是間接因為低薪所造成的。"},{"start":11371.923,"end":11381.895,"text":"所以,韓國的經驗值得我們去學習,除了租稅優惠之外,你政策也可以去補貼,可以現金來補貼。用國家武神去補貼就是中小企業。王部長,你有同意嗎?"},{"start":11387.386,"end":11412.377,"text":"我們比較多的是用這個相關的鼓勵他來這個比如說升級轉型提高他的這個讓企業的這個變好了以後那個太抽象了你就是專款專用那個他會用很多的名目去去規避他的責任但是他享受到政府的補貼但是他不會去去負他的該負的責任他負的責任就是要為員工加薪"},{"start":11413.527,"end":11416.048,"text":"但是你的,像剛才次長講,你的產業的體質好有賺錢了以後,相對的長遠來講,它的加薪的這樣的本錢才會存在。"},{"start":11433.294,"end":11458.681,"text":"低薪問題要當國安問題來處理,因為提了很多解方,做了很多的事情,政策也不斷提出來,也花了很多預算,但是卻沒有辦法有效讓這個年輕人覺得他們薪水是值得他們投入的。現在薪水比我30年前出就業的時候是差不多,你只要加上通膨的效果,"},{"start":11460.663,"end":11488.277,"text":"特別是以中小企業為主所以這幫助於國安問題你要窮盡政府的所有的資源跟力量對大企業補貼還不如拿對中小企業的補貼幫他補貼直接用在對員工的加薪這樣年輕人才有感如果他一個月只領到三萬五如果這個新鮮人的話一三萬五你扣掉房租什麼的通膨"},{"start":11489.534,"end":11518.676,"text":"恐怕他沒有能力去購屋,他沒有能力去結婚生子。要比韓國、比日本只要查經濟。所以我不是覺得應該用行政院的高度,要提出一個怎麼樣去解決青年低薪問題的一個對策委員會。從行政院的層級來去解決問題,而不是說跨部會各自提出政策跟主張,就沒有去整合。這個效果是有限的。"},{"start":11519.755,"end":11522.657,"text":"主席好各位官員各位委員大家早安我們是有請部長"},{"start":11548.442,"end":11574.696,"text":"我們再請王部長,謝謝。好,謝謝部長。其實今天我們來討論這個《中小企業發展條例加薪減稅修法》的一個草案,我覺得非常有意義。因為我本身也是年輕人,也是一位會計師。過去長期以來,台灣這個低薪問題的確影響到非常年輕人,所以我這邊還是要拜託部長,"},{"start":11575.456,"end":11575.636,"text":"議員柯志恩"},{"start":11601.554,"end":11617.704,"text":"則陸長,針對我們今天,當然今天這不在修法的內容裡面,針對這個中小企業發展條例三十六條之二第二項裡面有提到,痘號後面有提到,得救非因法定最低工資調整而增加支付本國現職基層員工的這個部分,"},{"start":11620.265,"end":11633.213,"text":"那本席在這邊會認為說如果這個法令有這樣子去修代表的是不是說如果政府有條基本工資的話那政府的企業在加薪的這個部分就不能再抵稅150%的範圍是嗎?"},{"start":11635.635,"end":11655.082,"text":"就是他的加薪的,他的加薪不可以是因為政府的這個基本工資的調升而都算在內,指的是這個意思。對,所以我跟部長的想法是一致的齁,所以這邊就有拜託部長齁,其實我認為喔,過去以來就是因為這個加薪減稅的條例有的誘因不足喔,所以這個"},{"start":11656.442,"end":11679.838,"text":""},{"start":11679.938,"end":11700.688,"text":"就是不要說只要企業的企業主有幫員工年輕人不管是24歲以下或者是45歲以上有幫他加薪就好不要再讓他抵稅的部分的那個額度能再降低我認為這是稅負只有一點點可是讓這個不管是鼓勵企業主或鼓勵員工這部分是不是部長可以來考慮一下"},{"start":11701.408,"end":11731.032,"text":"就是不要讓企業有種穿小鞋,不然未來我們都希望這個法定的基本地利工資可以調越高越好,可是如果這樣的話企業減稅優先就減少了,那這樣會不會有一點讓企業穿小鞋有點本末倒置?部長,拜託你回答一下。但是這一個部分其實是要希望這個企業主在基本工資之外再多加薪。沒錯沒錯,我們都希望說大家多加薪,是不是說不要這一塊,如果基本工資有調高的這一部分,是不是不要讓這個底稅的部分"},{"start":11731.032,"end":11748.268,"text":""},{"start":11748.595,"end":11763.551,"text":"好,謝謝部長。那這邊我要請教一個大家比較特別的,當然台灣都在推廣運動啦,那這我不知道部長可不可以回答。尤其就在我們台灣常常這個幫企業減稅的部分,常常給企業穿小鞋。在運動發展條例裡面有一個規定是1500萬以上。"},{"start":11765.448,"end":11792.571,"text":"如果捐贈到1500萬以上捐贈的企業可以抵150%的稅負在這裡面也有一個讓企業穿小鞋的部分就是說在抵稅超過1500萬以上的部分抵稅的這個金額需要把它放在這個所得基本稅額裡面來去做一個試算如果超過的部分還要補繳12%的稅所以讓這些大型企業覺得說那我這樣你讓我口上說讓我抵這個20%"},{"start":11794.272,"end":11810.608,"text":"可是事實上在基本所得稅額裡面又說只抵讓我要補繳12%的稅只能抵8%所以我認為說很多政府利益良善的部分不要讓企業穿小鞋而且讓他們這個抵稅誘因下降是不是請部長回答還是你要請"},{"start":11811.63,"end":11825.986,"text":"對,是不是請財政部回答?這個放在申報書其他的部分啦,很奇怪。報告委員,基本上是這樣子,因為我們現在就是有那個所謂最低稅負制這個制度主要就是希望就是說企業或個人不要因為過度享受太多的租稅優惠而"},{"start":11826.186,"end":11845.162,"text":""},{"start":11845.182,"end":11871.363,"text":"就是因為這樣的條例你有沒有跟企業去溝通一下就是這樣子的問題讓企業覺得有在幫這個政府租稅誘因有讓企業覺得說不是這麼的大方會降低他們捐贈的一個鼓勵運動的一個意願是不是所以請政事這邊是不是去訪查一下民意是不是這一條在申報書的部分把它拿掉參考一下好不好因為一直來講我們今天在討論這麼多的問題就是誘因不足"},{"start":11872.303,"end":11897.339,"text":"剛剛我講的這兩點就是企業跟民間要徵稅的一個感覺啦,好不好?是,委員我們可以把,我們因為這個教育部有統計資料,我們其實可以去了解一下他們事實上目前捐贈的狀況,也讓委員了解一下,提供給委員參考。好,再拜託一下,好那最後再拜託主席最後一分鐘的時間齁。那今天我們國民黨的這個黨團的提出來齁,因為跟部長請教齁,因為今天就是要誘因不足啊,"},{"start":11898.059,"end":11903.687,"text":"所以我們把這個原本可以減稅的部分從130%調到150,原本的不是調到150嗎?那本檔呢是調到200,請部長回答你認為調到150了以後,能申請的企業會比原本的增加多少?"},{"start":11912.894,"end":11932.679,"text":"有,我們這個有做一個相關的這個研究齁,那如果調到150以後呢,大概在增僱的部分可以大概接近4000人啦齁,那在加薪的部分大概有這個5800多人可以來利用這個新的制度,是。"},{"start":11933.379,"end":11961.474,"text":"感謝部長,因為我自己手上有一篇資料相當讓我壓抑,過去105年的時候就196個人來做申請,那剛剛部長特別講出來只要增加到150其實就有大幅度的成長,所以國民黨黨團為了幫助年輕人,24歲以下年輕人以及45上的這個未來不管是這個青壯代時代的人,我們本黨團提出200%就是需要說部長我們可以經濟求精好又更再好,"},{"start":11961.934,"end":11967.517,"text":"所以拜託我們不分黨派,各位官員我們今天一起來努力推動。以上,謝謝。請鍾嘉斌委員質詢。"},{"start":11987.816,"end":12000.806,"text":"主席在場的委員先進,略席的政府機關首長官員。有沒有聲音啊?會場工作夥伴?有齁?那記者沒聽你們先生。好,那有請王部長和高副主委以及...請王部長、高副主委。"},{"start":12007.131,"end":12032.676,"text":"三位傑出的女性閣員我今天的標題就是加薪調降營所稅中小企業無意願小店寬減營業稅創業青年接受惠橫批杯水車薪啊為什麼這樣說呢你看一看現在你們的條文我還記得部長你的報告裡面寫我們目前有中小企業有160萬家從業人員有913萬人對不對看起來推出這個方案有這麼多人受惠你認為是不是這樣"},{"start":12034.179,"end":12061.386,"text":"呃,其實不是欸。不是喔?那我們來看一下你們的受估、受益人數。根據你們的稅市支出評估,這你們提的,要減稅嘛。你們大概每年的最高誘發可以將近兩萬人,最少呢也有兩千五百人,是八倍之多啊。相差這個高低差這麼多。那平均呢,加薪的話大概一個人可以增加一年多一點六萬,大概一個月多一千三啊。那請問什麼樣的行業、什麼樣的規模公司員工可以加到薪?你認為在你們的這個草案之下?"},{"start":12062.441,"end":12071.666,"text":"我們這個草案確實會針對中小企業就是第一個他有這個有需要繳稅而且他不是用那個擴大輸損的對對很好說得很好來次長次長理事長"},{"start":12076.189,"end":12105.429,"text":"瓜哥說擴大疏省的財政部很明白的說中小企業當中六成的商家無意願我現在這個數字一百零二萬是指有在申報營所稅的這其中的擴大疏省就是年營業規模三千萬以下存益率大概平均六趴那其中的這六十二萬家就是剛剛部長所說的這個擴大疏省的大概意願不高為什麼二十七萬家這個獨自合夥呢年所得多少這個公司僅一趟二十六萬六啊"},{"start":12106.448,"end":12132.298,"text":"Judge 26萬元的公司一年只支出扣掉收入扣掉支出只佔26萬6再把這些扣除而扣一扣他幾乎銀索稅不太用繳是不是這樣?次長?各位委員報告其實我們目前我是用平均來算你們給我的數字是這樣我先說明一下因為我們獨資合夥的組織目前他就不用繳一毛錢的銀索稅是嗎?好那把這個扣掉了還剩下35萬的公司組織我更嚇一跳我拿到你們的資料告訴我平均連鎖的5萬5萬"},{"start":12134.139,"end":12136.68,"text":"adequate 公司進一趟五萬五千塊。"},{"start":12158.007,"end":12180.996,"text":"其實呢,中小企業的平均人數大概不到6個人,5.79。這62萬家沒有什麼意願的中小企業扣一扣,有360萬的員工啊,他基本上呢,他不會受你們的方案所涵蓋啊。那我們目前多少?910萬個從業人員,王部長是不是這樣子?所以有4成的人,他在就業的人口是這個方案照顧到的,是不是這樣子?"},{"start":12181.596,"end":12182.357,"text":"財政部的事了,怎麼說呢?"},{"start":12204.339,"end":12224.807,"text":"現在我那時候不斷的跟您提出我們目前的微型企業就是月營業額小店家未達20萬的有將近52萬家免開統一發票但是呢我主張他們也全部都免稅這你知道我很熟悉這個議題現在是要8萬以上月營業額大半以外的還要課1%的營業稅那這個呢大概佔了大概30萬家"},{"start":12229.414,"end":12257.073,"text":"好,那如果我們把小店家二十萬到五十萬營業規模的有高達六十六萬三千家那我為什麼主張稅率一趴呢?你看一看齁你們2022年的營業稅的總額是五千四百四十四億小規模營業人就最前面那五十二萬家呢只佔了三十四點七億佔我們營業稅的零點六十的貢獻度好,那這個比這個唯一現在在大人的小店家員工人數兩到五人每年如果呢你把"},{"start":12258.311,"end":12261.072,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案。"},{"start":12275.419,"end":12301.473,"text":"來你看一下齁目前這是我們GDP的分部面的統計其中住宿跟餐飲業他的受僱人數他的薪酬的占比是最高的也就是說他們的營業額大部分是支付在員工的薪水上人事成本上但是呢他的薪資是最低的其實我們講青年低薪是在低在哪裡低在這些餐飲業因為剛出來嘛還有什麼技術很多都是餐飲業甚至青年創業"},{"start":12302.91,"end":12324.923,"text":""},{"start":12325.063,"end":12342.737,"text":"我完全同意那個問題。好,那針對這些人,他們才是我們真的要照顧的人,不是經濟部所管的那些台積電那些公司的受僱員工啊。好,來次長,最後是你的問題了,你的需求了。有沒有這個行動支付的優惠明年到期?是。當時這個是為什麼?誰的,哪一位行政院黨在那推動的?"},{"start":12345.014,"end":12363.239,"text":"2018年,行政院長是賴清德。但是為了鼓勵年輕人、小規模營業人導入行動之戶,年輕人很歡迎。他這樣子的話,他的實體商店,他因為這樣的關係可以得到一趴營業稅的優惠,對不對?是。青年都很歡迎、很肯定。副主委。"},{"start":12364.565,"end":12392.227,"text":"這個政策我覺得不知道當時誰跟賴新德院長建議的財政部也被迫接受了雖然他們不是很情願但是實際的優惠青年受益很多但是明年就到期來接下來次長可不可以我們也把這樣的一個展員擴大試用給我剛剛說的20萬以上開統一發票未達50萬月營業額的特定項目的行業別尤其是餐飲業也給他一趴的一個這樣的優惠"},{"start":12394.385,"end":12409.141,"text":"雖然我們這個制度有推動啦,但是,剛才委員長講說承受年輕人的歡迎,但是依照我們實際上就是去統計的結果,就是很多的小店家他其實使用了以後,他並沒有真正...部長,我沒想到你這麼認真說了實話。"},{"start":12410.627,"end":12434.247,"text":"就是你們的效果其實呢,就是那個使用的比例很低啦,對。所以我才說,要調整,我只是不好意思說,你們當然用意很好,但是方向知識錯誤,不一定低啊,不一定高啊。所以我希望你們把目標調整一下,年輕人不是只有壽星、地星而已,年輕人創業的占很大的部分,這些小老闆,兩夫妻創業、加盟店,"},{"start":12434.927,"end":12444.391,"text":"他們如果能夠把這個方式轉移到對這些小公民業的,會有很大幫助。願不願意回去再度評估一下?我一直建議我們會再評估。好,謝謝。謝謝主席。請賴氏寶委員質詢。謝謝主席。"},{"start":12461.122,"end":12467.605,"text":"謝謝主席及各位先進有請經濟部的王部長及財政部的理事長兩位長官我們來看一下這個案子原來130%是民國106年通過的對不對民國106年"},{"start":12489.144,"end":12513.765,"text":"因為他前面有條條框框說這個條件啊要經濟到一定的條件就GDP啊要成長到多少這個細節就是是經濟不定還是財政不定我們財經兩部一起匯上去一起匯康一定要太快啦總共只有啟動兩次總共呢總共稅損多少來理事長說一下稅損多少稅損啟動兩次稅損"},{"start":12518.519,"end":12545.322,"text":"金額...金額很有限啊...金額多少?你講一下啊!問題一下!三十六條之二...因為它有不同的項次全部加起來!我們不算!我們不算!第一項大概是兩千多...兩千多萬元然後第二項是...第二次!兩百...兩百多萬元然後三十...第三項的話是...我跟你說!叔叔啦!你都沒有加!我替你加啦!兩次加起來總共稅損八千四百萬啦!"},{"start":12547.485,"end":12571.152,"text":"從華民國的稅收每一年都是兩兆多多多多多,啊你稅損就八千多萬兩千,所以你要關心你這個中小企業為基層的勞工來加薪,都騙人的啊。一百三十七啊,結果你們兩次啟動,就是因為門檻電容高只有啟動兩次。一百零五年到現在一百一十三年,八年的時間只有啟動兩次。"},{"start":12573.274,"end":12596.233,"text":"只有啟動兩次。我們看到那個數字,大家都知道這個數字。我們的員工的薪水佔GDP的比例,在先進國家裡面,我們說先進國家呢,我們金稅低了13%。大部分的錢都給老闆拿走了,給財團的老闆拿走了。"},{"start":12597.419,"end":12622.784,"text":"繼承的員工分不到啊,這個看清楚,平均的員工,平均勞工,他的薪資三分之二的勞工是領不到平均薪資的。平均薪資現在四萬二,百分之六十八的人領不到。這樣子的這麼好一個所加薪的法案,就是因為財經兩部,本來我以為就財政部,原來經濟部也差一腳。"},{"start":12623.664,"end":12633.71,"text":"你們就那個條件空空在那裡所以總共稅損八千多萬然後你們計較八千多萬然後現在還不敢再放"},{"start":12635.396,"end":12662.037,"text":"只放一百五,你一計一百五能夠稅損多少?來來來,次長公子,如果你的一百五稅損多少?是報告委員,其實我們這次修法是很重要的一個修法,是把原來那些條件都修掉了,都刪除了。對,這是一個很大的修正。那這次修正以後,基本上我們減的稅收大概是,如果是以低推估大概是兩億左右。兩億啊!兩億而已啊,各位!"},{"start":12665.134,"end":12671.276,"text":"但是有多少人可以受惠?是算的!有多少人可以受惠?兩萬多人!好!兩億啊!各位可以這個帳都很好算的喔!稅損就是兩億!"},{"start":12689.162,"end":12707.1,"text":"我們一次把它拉到200%,了不起3億啊!所以損3億,那你說2萬人,我們可以到3萬人,為什麼不要做這樣的事情?我聽不懂啊!這個大家都一直講台灣貧富差距越來越嚴重,越來越嚴重!那麼最近的數字也是這樣子,然後再怎麼辦?"},{"start":12708.277,"end":12723.307,"text":"那就讓基層的員工有機會加薪。這麼好的一個案子,你們也願意從善如流,做一個、做一個、做一個。一百三變一百五。步調太低、太少啦。就一次到底兩百八。可以嗎?部長。"},{"start":12726.804,"end":12731.69,"text":"謝謝委員,那等一下照個案討論的時候,我們就相關的這個暫評再去討論。"},{"start":12741.684,"end":12764.299,"text":" bicyn 罷文其實主要是因為我們這次修法是完全無條件的,只要你加薪,微幅的加薪也可以適用,所以這個可能我們要考慮一下就是說,對,但是如果你幅度過高,是不是對那些就是說一般他即使只對企業加薪一點點,是不是要給他這麼優惠,可能要考量一下,因為這個會計程序有達到我們的政策目的啦。"},{"start":12771.784,"end":12787.122,"text":"不是,我們不...其實這個稅收損失真的不是很大,但是我們真的覺得必須要達到它的政策效果。政策絕對有效果,200%絕對效果絕對比150%好。而且你框框拿掉了,絕對申請的人越來越多,你估兩萬。"},{"start":12789.008,"end":12790.969,"text":"議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":12808.436,"end":12832.587,"text":"但是跟委員報告去適用到這一個的部分我們有估過大概合資格可以來算的大概是二十萬家啦。二十萬家能夠多多少錢?我的算過財政部說稅損兩億變成兩百趴了不起三億四億好不好?每年去年超收三千六百多億對不對?要計較這個東西啊?"},{"start":12837.113,"end":12866.05,"text":"部長、市長真的你們要看到臺灣現在這麼扭曲的一個經濟社會所GDP發展、獨法戰結果有錢人越有錢、窮人越窮這個、這個是、這個也是一點點而已啦表示你的、我們的決心而已喔這個、老實講受惠的人也不會太多啦也不會太多他要有加薪才能夠成然後把那一堪力他再給員工加薪鼓勵他"},{"start":12867.865,"end":12868.025,"text":"請賴瑞龍委員質詢。"},{"start":12896.386,"end":12905.309,"text":"這季的GDP成長6.51,其實是這11季來的很好的一個成績。部長怎麼看待為什麼這樣的一個成果?"},{"start":12917.003,"end":12932.638,"text":"事實上我們原來就有預估因為確實是AI的大爆發那對台灣來講在這一塊等於是所有的晶片都是在台灣做然後非常重要是90%的伺服器跟供應鏈都是台灣提供那這個有帶動整個台灣的經濟往上趴我覺得這是非常好的"},{"start":12939.445,"end":12959.833,"text":"所以部長也會看好整個後續的一些經濟成長率,所以這大概是一個很好的一個整個啟動起來的。那裡面其中兩個大概很重要的一個是這個揮打,一個是超微。那兩個我看之前部長也有提到就是兩大科技廠的物流中心都要來台灣來設置,那現在這個進度狀況怎麼樣?"},{"start":12960.854,"end":12978.613,"text":"他們都已經在運作了,是。特別是NVIDIA的這個物流中心,他們已經在這個遠東這個遠雄的那個經貿園區裡面已經在運作了。對,這個已經在運作了。那超微這一塊AMD的部分呢?"},{"start":12979.622,"end":12979.942,"text":"賴主席"},{"start":13000.636,"end":13000.856,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":13022.415,"end":13048.242,"text":"稍微的部分也有意願要來台灣來做相關的投資啦那經濟部政院有沒有跟他們怎麼樣的合作?是不是有簽署意向書或者是備忘錄的這個可能性?目前因為他已經按照我們的這個大Aplus在申請中所以就按照大Aplus相關的程序來進行就可以了所以沒有什麼樣的問題啦就按照程序來進行我們希望能夠加快幫我補充的那個"},{"start":13050.605,"end":13073.959,"text":"報告委員目前就是正在審查中並沒有一個形式上簽一個LI的一個動作所以沒有這樣的問題所以這樣的合作上是沒有問題的就是說因為在審查這個簽LI就是在審查的這個單位來講簽LI似乎上好像在審查過程中比較不適合所以我們按程序來審查但是合作上面引進來台灣來投資是沒有問題的嗎"},{"start":13075.791,"end":13102.446,"text":"我們會盡量能夠去跟他談一個比較好的一個條件。OK OK 好好謝謝。那部長我覺得這個未來的AI這一塊也相當重要啦所以我想這個大家都努力的在爭取但是我還是希望提醒就是說其實七成的新創事業都幾乎跟AI在做很多的應用合作但是我還是希望這些的能量上面不要有南北失衡上的問題啦齁。"},{"start":13103.947,"end":13118.112,"text":"我們看這些都很重要,包括新創的環境,其實世界競爭力台灣也進到第六,在全球的新創生態系的排名也到了24。都很好成績,包括賴總統也一直在講創新創業雨林生態系的問題。"},{"start":13121.753,"end":13144.821,"text":"但是我們來看一下整個從中小企業跟新創事業的這個分佈來看臺北市大概3410加數新北市1017高雄565臺南313其實還是很明顯的北跟南之間也存在的相當落差高雄跟臺南加起來還不到新北更不要講遠遠落後臺北市"},{"start":13145.481,"end":13161.422,"text":"那我是覺得這一塊還是要請部長跟市長、署長都要大力來支持讓南部的這一塊的中小企業或者新創事業的一些的這個發展能夠更加的順暢。甚至剛剛也提到了像輝達的部分也在"},{"start":13162.563,"end":13185.584,"text":"adequate 台北來投資的嗎?我們都希望未來有更多的可能性是往中南部去走,讓南部這一塊,部長怎麼來協助推動?是是,我們也很贊成,因為你這樣的南北都有這樣的新創的話,那對吸引這個相關的人才也是有幫助。那這個我們經濟部的策略就是一定會讓南北更平衡。"},{"start":13186.464,"end":13203.629,"text":"我希望部長或所有的署長、司長等等所有都還是要不斷地把這個放在心裡面去做處理啦因為你不做處理最後一定是多數落在北部啦北部其實是具有相當的優勢的那你一定要很有策略很有目的地去往中南部去推動他才有機會讓"},{"start":13204.549,"end":13205.01,"text":"賴主席﹚賴主席"},{"start":13229.153,"end":13244.382,"text":"那我要講的是未來有可能會有三座,林口新創園、雅灣新創園跟喬科的這個園區。那三個裡面園區看起來林口跟喬科都可能會達到一萬多坪、一萬五千坪。但是這個雅灣的新創園其實條件相當不錯齁。"},{"start":13245.763,"end":13251.266,"text":"未來其實有機會在高原二期來設置啦,我也希望部長、署長、市長這邊來大力支持,讓雅灣新創園的能量能夠更強大好不好?是,我們都有在做這樣相關的吸引性創,可以更集中,然後更集中它的能量就會更好。"},{"start":13266.354,"end":13281.533,"text":"現在高原二期在進行中,那我希望未來這個空間的部分是不是能夠給予更充足的空間?你看林口的,其實它的環境逐漸成熟,所以它一萬五千多坪的空間,獨立的辦公室等等,它250間。"},{"start":13283.055,"end":13304.362,"text":"以雅灣新創原材1356坪,獨立辦公室25間,這個落差其實相當的大啦。那我們希望說在高原二期的部分,希望部長、署長、司長等大家能夠支持在高原二期能夠有這個好的空間出來,讓雅灣的新創這一塊能夠來蓬勃來發展。是。是。是。好不好,部長這個請繼續支持啦,好嗎?是。是。"},{"start":13308.966,"end":13319.59,"text":"好 謝謝另外想要請教一下電力的問題我看到有些提出來要求來修相關的一些法令 部長怎麼看?"},{"start":13321.147,"end":13325.33,"text":"我們是認為這個電力的電費的審議那經過這個審議委員會那審議委員會裡面除了產官學之外還有工商團體、消保團體那這個非常細膩的去討論出來之後我們是建議這樣的方式還是比較好的方式"},{"start":13341.08,"end":13361.898,"text":"這個機制好不容易從政治決定回到了專業的決定了吼,那也經過甚至在當時的國民黨政府時代也提出來的這樣的一個,然後也立到了法裡面去。如果現在因為這樣的因素而在變動的話,立法院的話那幾乎會演變成最後是政治決定,那在立法院政治決定幾乎很多東西你要漲價大概都會有困難。"},{"start":13362.398,"end":13379.394,"text":""},{"start":13379.754,"end":13381.154,"text":"接下來我們請陳冠廷委員請做詢談。"},{"start":13414.473,"end":13417.303,"text":"麻煩部長我們再請王部長"},{"start":13423.509,"end":13445.92,"text":"部長,今天要諮詢的部分可能也要麻煩成為重要的交接事項,主要是針對基礎設施的部分。昨天我們在國防外交委員會針對國土辦提到一些重點的基礎建設、基礎設施的韌性。我們回顧這8年,2017年的時候有全台大停電的事件。"},{"start":13446.22,"end":13471.895,"text":"那當然是因為包商的關係,那導致天然氣供氣中斷,那這個機組的停止運作。那2022年3月11號這個就比較是,它不是所謂高科技上面的危害,就很簡單的,非常low tech的,就是桃園機場的電纜遭到包商的人員意外的剪斷,那整個機場就停電了。所以從這兩個案例來看,我可以看到說我們不管是發電廠、機場這些重要的基礎設施來說的話,"},{"start":13475.285,"end":13495.886,"text":"不要說是治安防護我們沒有講到那邊喔講到是最簡單的門禁的檢查器具的使用目標地的存在就是說你為什麼會在那個時間點在那個地方不應該在授權的時間點出現在那個地方就應該被禁止這個東西我們沒有做得比較完善那我們不是要苛責這個國安單位因為"},{"start":13498.268,"end":13513.336,"text":""},{"start":13513.564,"end":13536.03,"text":"天然氣我們還是有一個優先的方案出來那當然經濟部是主管單位所以我昨天問國土辦的時候國土辦給我的回答是說主要他們大概也只有十幾十幾個人人力而已那他們的預算大概也是數百萬元而已等於說他沒有辦法做一個完整的執行嘛因為他是幕僚單位所以執行的部分就等於是由各個部門去處理"},{"start":13537.03,"end":13563.067,"text":"對,這件事情我是很重要的這是一個未來的基礎設施是非常重要的那特別是我們接下來的部長應該就是葉建樹來的他當然知道說只要某一個小時的斷電它造成的影響是有多大那有的時候斷電是因為跳電或者是一些自然的災害那無可厚非嘛那就變成要做應變機制就是做減災的部分可是在防範的部分已經出現多次都是用非常低科技的方式就是我們想像"},{"start":13563.387,"end":13579.172,"text":""},{"start":13579.532,"end":13588.895,"text":"幾次?大概是幾次?不用給我正確數字,大概是多少?是,那這個部分的演練確實有,那因為經濟部負責的關鍵基礎設施,水、電,還有這個煉油廠等等,所以經濟部都有參與這樣的一個關鍵基礎設施,韌性以及安全的演練,那這個部分確實我們會來執行。謝謝部長,我希望說接下來針對這個發電廠、天然氣節奏站、煉油廠、自來水廠,"},{"start":13607.001,"end":13634.522,"text":"這個必須要完整的有一個演練希望讓下一個部長他能夠應該是說不要再特定時間了就是隨時都必須要做好準備甚至是有不要先講好哪一個時間點把那個situation就是直接把那個狀態就直接給演練的狀況就是不要先事先演練安排而是做好突發事件的做好準備的這種演練這個部分我是希望可以做好這個部分因為特別"},{"start":13635.643,"end":13650.818,"text":"因為要攻擊台灣的基礎建設基礎設施它所造成的影響層面是太多太大了那我們也不希望說因為這個東西的存在國土辦的這個幕僚單位的預算就是這麼少"},{"start":13651.499,"end":13668.159,"text":"所以變成是說他也只能做政策上面的宣示啦,執行上面還是由各部會要去做。各部會會有,那現在的相關的寶二的這個相關的這個也會進來進駐,那這個會一起來把它做得更好。"},{"start":13668.679,"end":13686.871,"text":"對,而且這個東西如果配合錯假亂訊息的話,那個影響層面是到社會各個層面的,特別我們剛剛講煉油廠,我們剛剛講天然氣廠,那我現在就看到很多我們的鄉親又在傳一些假訊息,說哇那個這大暴躁的話會對這個我們的影響多大,開始這種錯假亂訊息又在不斷的在宣傳。"},{"start":13687.811,"end":13714.826,"text":"所以我還是強調說因應錯假斷信許的最好方式就是做好自己的任性準備那做好自己的任性準備之後也是要透過各個不同的媒體管道社區媒體管道告訴大家說我們做好準備那有些人說這個是機密上面啊什麼我們怎麼樣準備怎麼樣尋守這個機密但不一定為什麼要這麼講當你做好任性上面的準備並且透過正確的管道跟民眾傳遞的話同時也是一個震懾效應這個震懾的意義在於說讓"},{"start":13716.305,"end":13736.152,"text":""},{"start":13743.623,"end":13744.726,"text":"主席、經濟部部長"},{"start":13754.242,"end":13773.088,"text":"委員好,部長午安。快速跟部長討論一下,我們雖然在教育文化委員會,可是我們認識非常非常多在第一線的工作的家長。我想部長你應該都知道,台灣有非常多的中小企業其實承擔了台灣經濟發展的責任,對嗎?是的,是的。那我們從家長的角度來看一些事情。"},{"start":13773.968,"end":13802.547,"text":"adequacy目前國科會的科學技術統計要來裡面呢我們發現未滿200人的中小企業整體的研發經費有細節我就不講整個加起來其實不到10%那再加上經濟部的統計中小企業有163萬家全國的全體企業佔98.9%也就是說有非常多的家長或是關心教育的人其實都在中小企業工作可是中小企業的穩定發展研發經費佔比卻不高我覺得部長您對這個什麼問題"},{"start":13805.989,"end":13824.86,"text":"但是他們其實面臨什麼樣的困境?在中小企業裡面因為又有服務業跟製造業,那在製造業的部分確實中小企業的人力也好,相關的淨費也好,比較有限,那確實占比就會比較低一點。"},{"start":13825.76,"end":13846.188,"text":"那沒錯部長您講到很重要的問題那我們來看另外一個二月二十三號經濟日報的這個報導說中小企業發展條例跟產創條例提供了研發租稅優惠規定大致是相似在台灣的中小企業發展條例研發門檻相對比較低那鼓勵中小企業去申請那目前這個報導裡面說以台北市為例在2022年有73件適用中小企業研發投資檢體那我們來看這個事情"},{"start":13850.97,"end":13864.797,"text":"可是如果我們只看臺北市市73,您覺得如果類推到全臺灣,大概可以適用中小企業研發投資底檢,可能會有幾件?你們目前手上有相關數字嗎?來,你說明一下吧。"},{"start":13865.468,"end":13876.151,"text":"市長,這次我們修法之後我們會預計每年申請的加速會有320件預計300多件目前大概是304件可是我剛剛也給您一個數字全台灣有多少萬中小企業那這個比例聽起來還是相對低那我們這邊想要建議有沒有機會為了整體的經濟發展的永續穩定中小企業相關的人力跟產能的發展也提高中小企業研發的誘因"},{"start":13894.636,"end":13899.708,"text":"經濟部跟財政部有沒有機會共同討論進一步放寬中小企業研發租稅優惠的門檻?"},{"start":13902.471,"end":13924.973,"text":"我補充報告一下,事實上中小企業的條例有研發,但是產創條例也有。所以剛才講的這個件數只有中小企業發展條例的。那產創的部分加起來的話,事實上件數應該是有一倍以上。但相對也還是低了。而且如同您說,您也知道他們的資源是不足的。"},{"start":13925.273,"end":13946.809,"text":"中小企業它要的這個提升的部分,它有很多個面向,它有時候是商業模式,它有時候是研發的部分。那我相信部長聽起來是非常清楚,可是我想有沒有機會列為重要交接是以就是把更多中小企業的聲音聽進去,因為當台灣在追求整個科技發展的時候,絕對不要忘了台灣中小企業絕對是重要的經濟發展命脈,對嗎?"},{"start":13948.49,"end":13951.053,"text":"關於員工教育訓練的部分,我們也想要建議有沒有機會納入相關法規來討論員工教育訓練的費用可不可以有沒有機會列為抵檢項目。我們認為員工教育訓練的費用"},{"start":13966.894,"end":13970.897,"text":"adequate to the cost of research and development."},{"start":13997.154,"end":13997.314,"text":"議員柯志恩"},{"start":14013.729,"end":14037.295,"text":""},{"start":14037.84,"end":14039.301,"text":"主席,我想請部長。我們再請王部長。"},{"start":14064.212,"end":14074.305,"text":"部長,對於本院的決議因動漲電價,經濟部是否已經準備好就是不會遵守呢?"},{"start":14075.441,"end":14091.737,"text":"因為目前按照電業法的規定所以我們是認為我們經濟部還是要按照法律的規定來執行相關的電價調整就是不計任何代價不願苦民所苦就是不會遵守本院的決議應該動長電價"},{"start":14094.44,"end":14096.783,"text":"事實上如果動漲電價,那這一次我們的電價調整,那事實上85%是讓用電大戶來負擔這個調漲的情形。所以如果動漲事實上反而是會去補貼到這個用電的大戶,反而是一個更不平衡的情形。"},{"start":14114.304,"end":14115.806,"text":"請問這一次電價平均漲幅是多少呢?"},{"start":14126.133,"end":14133.375,"text":"我們這一次全部加起來的漲幅應該是11%左右。那這個以下的資源是來自於經濟部能源署有關電液審議的網頁。你可以看一下在104年1月20號立法院決議事項的第三條裡面寫著"},{"start":14147.419,"end":14167.21,"text":"adequate 社長服上線半年條服不得超過3%全年累計條服不得超過6%這個是在你們經濟部的網頁之上所公布的。所以呢這個條例請問一下經濟部有遵守嗎?"},{"start":14169.359,"end":14196.432,"text":"報告這個是104年立法院的決議那正式入法是在106年的1月28日那立法之後就把這個權利交給電價審議委員會由電價審議委員會來決定那你們想做的時候就說要遵守法規你們不想遵守的時候就非常多的理由電業法第49條規定費率是由主管機關核定公告的"},{"start":14196.992,"end":14203.637,"text":"那這個依照電業法49條電價審議結果出來之後還是必須要經過經濟部的核定所以過去才有連續動漲啊動漲的時候不是都是依照電價公式計算出來的結果而是經濟部政治決定的結果所以這個經濟部不要再推給法律規定因為第一"},{"start":14222.45,"end":14247.547,"text":" bicy,經濟部就未遵守這三趴的天花板規定。第二,經濟部有核定權,不是審議計算出來的結果就是最終結論。所以結論就是經濟部不願苦民所苦,一定要漲電價,是嗎?報告委員,過去不管電價,要調整的能源署副署長,就是我們負責電價的...我現在問的是部長,我有請你上來嗎?是。"},{"start":14249.793,"end":14268.457,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上在我們電價審議的時候考慮的因素包括照顧民生那所以事實上過去這幾次都是電價審議會決定最後是要漲還是不要漲或者幾%但是你是有權利可以動漲的呀沒有但是因為都是在電價審議會決議了他只是報給這個經濟部來做公告所以事實上都是由電價審議會審議的結果"},{"start":14277.719,"end":14295.619,"text":"部長好幾次告訴我說國際上的天然氣價格就是因為國際上的天然氣價格大漲所以呢我們台電才會虧損這麼多那其實呢我看這個部長你可以看一下這個日韓指數的期貨價格就是"},{"start":14296.926,"end":14299.249,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":14314.77,"end":14342.11,"text":"adequate 了嗎?沒有沒有另外還有一個管道的天然氣所以委員的這一張圖我不是確定所以這個是日韓不靠輸入氣管的就是靠汽油輪的這個價格因為之前我提的你說因為他們都有輸氣管所以價格不一樣這個是跟台灣條件相仿的所以呢先前部長在2022年俄烏戰爭之後說的說我們買到了比俄羅斯更便宜的天然氣這個天然氣到哪裡去了?"},{"start":14344.692,"end":14347.254,"text":"欸那個那一次大家問的是說我們不買俄羅斯那買別的別的會不會比較貴所以我們當時講的是我們中油公司去跟別的這個賣的賣家買的這個氣沒有比俄羅斯的貴講的是這樣的一個情形那本期清楚期貨價格跟你們的合約價格可能是有所差異"},{"start":14368.289,"end":14388.292,"text":"但依照104年通過的這個電價審議委員會時的條件第六條,那時候說電價成本應該透明化,那是不是請經濟部公布一下這個天然氣合約的價格,讓人民可以檢視,請問部長願意公布嗎?"},{"start":14391.556,"end":14396.962,"text":"這個相關的合約是中油跟外面的廠商,那這個合約沒辦法,但是你管中油賣給台電或者賣給…中油賣給台電比較貴,這個上次已經講過了,那中油到底買多少錢?"},{"start":14407.193,"end":14411.115,"text":"中共賣給台電、賣給這個工業、賣給江戶的這個我們都可以讓大家知道。就是中油的部分這個天然氣的合約是不是應該把價格公佈出來?因為我記得公佈這個購買合約並不是沒有先例。在2012年經濟部就曾主動公佈台電的購煤合約。那當時為什麼公佈部長記得嗎?部長知道嗎?"},{"start":14432.208,"end":14434.589,"text":"嗯,那個時候我不曉得。對,我想,我想,所以..."},{"start":14447.816,"end":14475.221,"text":"你記不記得就是那時候有個新聞就說欸監察院要調查這個購煤的合約結果這個購煤的合約呢就失竊了所以呢我也希望說部長我們是不是儘速也公佈一下我們天然氣的合約而且也要在這個公佈之前要保障我們這個天然氣合約的安全否則真的是非常的危險怎麼會一要調查這個契約就遺失了所以呢最後呢本席也想要問就是說"},{"start":14476.861,"end":14496.69,"text":"究竟要漲電價的就是是因為法規的關係還是經濟部不願意苦民所苦?事實上我有講過我們這一次的調漲85%其實是大的用戶在承擔這個漲那為什麼不動漲民生電價呢?為什麼不動漲?如果假設85%都是漲這個大的用戶的話為什麼另外那些民生用電不能動漲呢?"},{"start":14505.794,"end":14521.869,"text":""},{"start":14522.069,"end":14536.162,"text":"繼然你說85%影響的都是用電大戶,剩下的這些民生用電這些可以說是庶民百姓是不是能夠動長呢?這一點我也呼籲部長一定要認真考慮。"},{"start":14537.972,"end":14552.217,"text":"謝謝委員但是現在的這個一般的電價的賣給他的已經跟成本本來就乖離很多了所以我們其實這個又說到你錯誤的能源政策所以我今天可能時間也不足謝謝謝謝部長"},{"start":14558.64,"end":14582.332,"text":"謝謝。接下來我們請牛許廷委員、牛許廷、牛許廷委員不在現場。我們請何欣淳委員、何欣淳、何欣淳委員不在現場。我們請顏匡恆委員、顏匡恆、顏匡恆委員不在現場。請羅廷惠委員、羅廷惠、羅廷惠委員不在現場。請羅明財委員、羅明財、羅明財委員不在現場。我們請麥玉珍、麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員不在現場。我們請林倩琦委員、林倩琦、林倩琦委員不在現場。"},{"start":14583.172,"end":14590.095,"text":"我們請林德甫委員、林德甫、林德甫委員不在現場。我們請陳昌明、陳昌明、陳昌明委員不在現場。我們請黃國昌委員請做詢問。我們再請王部長。"},{"start":14614.756,"end":14629.768,"text":"針對利洋集團在台南七股小二甲的違法弊案,我今天早上召開了記者會。這個記者會就刑事偵查已經起訴接下來審判的部分,當然各該被告。"},{"start":14630.549,"end":14656.985,"text":"在審判程序當中去面對。但不是起訴完以後進入審判程序就沒有經濟部的事了。因為整起事件害人聽聞十分誇張。有兩件跟經濟部全責有關係的事情想要請教一下部長。就有關於古聖輝他們在非法取得台南七股電籌許可的這件事情上面"},{"start":14658.087,"end":14666.65,"text":"當初他們是透過小二甲禁令的但書也就是在102年7月31號以前合訂的109年6.5GW達標計畫就沒想到法規明確的寫要在109年7月31號以前合訂他們搞到2021年的時候開了一個會議幫他開後門"},{"start":14684.596,"end":14711.582,"text":"這個違法取得的電酬許可,經濟部要不要撤銷?請教部長。第一個,對於相關的案件有沒有要撤銷,那這個我們都會看有沒有相關的違法清洗。還要看多久?還要看多久?這就是你們的權責啊!因為這個目前...這不就是你們的權責嗎?第一個,我們還沒有看到起訴書的全文,那裡面有沒有什麼樣的...第一個,先等一下!"},{"start":14712.895,"end":14716.496,"text":"到現在都已經多久了?檢察官會寄起訴書給你們嗎?案件發生到現在,"},{"start":14736.717,"end":14759.533,"text":"連這麼基本的事實都還沒有開始。曾文森答應我說要啟動行政調查,啟動了嗎?我們會啟動行政的調查。什麼時候要啟動?等到收到起訴書?如果起訴書兩個月沒拿到就不會啟動是這樣嗎?我們當然要去看起訴書的內容啊。對,所以我說你什麼時候要啟動行政調查嘛?"},{"start":14760.734,"end":14766.624,"text":"什麼時候要啟動行政調查?我們收到起訴書,看那個內容一定會...所以我問你嘛,檢察官會寄起訴書給你嗎?"},{"start":14768.584,"end":14796.968,"text":"我們有跟當事人一樣起訴書所以如果站在當事人的立場我永遠不給你起訴書啊你永遠就沒有辦法啟動行政調查啊有這種態度的嗎我們本來就要看起訴書啊委員不用看起訴書的內容嗎裡面起訴書附的資料我這樣講好了啦以目前所有公開的資訊經濟部也好能源署也好你們手上有的事證有的基礎的資料"},{"start":14798.902,"end":14801.403,"text":"你們可以自己去判斷的事情太多了!我為什麼敢這樣講?當初怎麼開這個後門的?沒有基礎資料你們敢開後門嗎?為什麼不能夠這樣講?我就問一個最基本的問題就好了啦!"},{"start":14830.43,"end":14853.083,"text":"2020年6.5GW達標計畫法規上面寫著是要在7月31號以前核定納入的你們在2021年9月15號開了一個會議大家都創好了在那個時候開後門我現在依法論法2021年9月15號是憑什麼開這個後門"},{"start":14858.527,"end":14866.621,"text":"你不用看起訴書啊,你按照你們當初做行政處分的基礎,你們當初是依照什麼樣當作依據,開了這個後門,放谷聖輝過關。"},{"start":14871.633,"end":14880.795,"text":"adequate檢察官的起訴沒有關係喔!跟委員報告齁,你用講康我們是不能接受啦,因為沒有關係啊,你用事實說服我嘛!對,這個開這個會齁,包括農委會都有一起來開會,那我們這個是通案,我們這個是通案在處理。是!有符合法規嗎?"},{"start":14891.578,"end":14917.209,"text":"這個本來就是一個農委會本來就是突然的改變他的一個政策那所以我們去做改他不是比如說符合109人6.5億這個也不是法規那這個都是我們在做這個推動能源政策裡面不斷的在往前推進的一個情形推動小二甲後面上面的這個單書所以以部長的態度來講是說"},{"start":14919.651,"end":14931.165,"text":"這個規定是很彈性的,不用遵守也沒有關係,你的意思是這樣嗎?來看一下,農業主管機關同意農曆變更使用審查作業要點,這不是法規是什麼?這不是法規是什麼?"},{"start":14935.275,"end":14955.793,"text":"農變要點是相關的行政命令沒有錯。這個我們同意。但是農委會原來的規定後來沒有足夠的這個緩衝期,然後就改了規定。那造成一些大家有很多的意見。所以這個事實上也是後來很多的部會大家一起去討論的事情。"},{"start":14962.145,"end":14963.206,"text":"但是我,容額會這樣的規定造成非常多的案件已經審到一片。"},{"start":14979.935,"end":14983.459,"text":"有改法規嗎?所以沒有改法規公務員要不要守法?大家非常透明去做的決定。"},{"start":14999.858,"end":15001.499,"text":"沒錯,我們都有做會議記錄,難道這樣不透明嗎?我去年開始在追蹤這個案子"},{"start":15014.551,"end":15029.457,"text":"Reporter 臺灣民眾黨陳婉蕙委員也在追蹤這個案子。我那時候針對立洋集團為什麼有辦法在2022年開始繞過去小二甲的禁令,我是百思不得其解。"},{"start":15030.578,"end":15052.981,"text":"我查完了法規找了三種例外的狀況除非有一種我沒掌握到的就是有納入6.5GW所以我請陳委員跟經濟部所知把6.5GW納入的全部都要納進去嘛部長說有公開透明嘛有哪些被納進去全國人民不能知道嗎"},{"start":15054.182,"end":15079.344,"text":"所以就跟你們索資了。索資回來長了這個樣子。長了這個樣子,裡面有立洋集團的五天案場嗎?沒有。沒有。這不是我捏造出來的喔。剛部長談到公開透明,我們就來談公開透明。去年就跟你們要了。有哪些計畫納入這6.5GW,給出來的資料殘破不堪,裡面有五天案場嗎?"},{"start":15080.545,"end":15082.305,"text":"這是部長所說的公開透明嗎?我問A你答B的技巧非常厲害"},{"start":15102.21,"end":15129.936,"text":"我沒有!剛剛你不是說公開透明啊!我現在就跟你談公開透明啊!你們給委員的清單裡面為什麼沒有五天案場?不是被你們合法的納入了嗎?既然合法的納入為什麼上面沒有?在遮掩什麼?我們沒有在遮掩我這個...沒有在遮掩上面就沒有啊!我有說錯嗎?報告這個是當時在問的時候當時有提出來的申請案件...停一下!立朗什麼時候申請的?"},{"start":15131.308,"end":15159.667,"text":"你再騙啊!利昂什麼時候申請的?這個是當時已經併網的資料,那我們都寫在這裡。那我們那個,那邊有說這是併網的資料。對嘛!所以我就說嘛!你們到底在遮掩什麼嘛!我們要知道的是什麼?所有納入6.5GW的計劃有什麼?你們就提一個不完整的清單出來。現在主席站起來了啦!現在主席站起來。我只有兩個要求。"},{"start":15160.367,"end":15180.756,"text":"Reporter 今天不給答案沒有關係你就慢慢的等起訴書啊我如果是當事人我會給你起訴書才怪啊我知道你要收到起訴書法務部也不會給你起訴書你要跟當事人要我是當事人我就把起訴書放在抽屜裡我半年不給你你半年沒有辦法啟動行政調查行政調查要多久部長我們當然要看到起訴書的資料內容檢察官收集的資料我們再來看所以你需要多少的時間取得起訴書"},{"start":15190.962,"end":15210.995,"text":"我現在都還不知道檢察官的起訴書送出來沒有。我想委員,拿到檢察官的起訴書這不是應該我們很好的一個起步嗎?當然難道我們不用看到起訴書嗎?那就對啦,那所以我們當然是要看到起訴書。你本來自己行政調查資料都在你們檔案裡。"},{"start":15212.639,"end":15231.045,"text":"目前所公開的資訊,包括法務部給所有新聞記者,他只有把名字遮掉。他只有把名字遮掉,把郭再欽改成郭圈圈。但是事實行為的太陽,以目前公開連我都拿到的東西,已經鉅細靡遺了。"},{"start":15233.052,"end":15256.142,"text":"我只有兩個要求第一個違法的電酬許可撤銷第二個該送監察院彈劾的公務員請送監察院彈劾不要包屁我今天的訴求只有這兩個我們會行政調查我們會行政調查沒有關係我們就靜靜等嘛看經濟部的行政調查什麼時候要出來嘛還是審判繼續拖小股很夠力"},{"start":15258.063,"end":15280.623,"text":""},{"start":15282.725,"end":15304.977,"text":"我們登記發言的委員除了不在場之外,其餘都已經發言完畢,詢答結束。我們有委員陳昌明委員以及牛許廷委員所提書面質詢列入記錄,我們刊登公報。書面質詢以及會期答覆的部分請相關單位於一週以內以書面答覆並附資本會。那麼我們現在"},{"start":15307.018,"end":15309.362,"text":"進行審查中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案現在進行廣泛討論"},{"start":15320.902,"end":15345.543,"text":"那沒有人登記發言我們現在請議事組人員宣讀所有的條文若有修正動議及附帶決議請一併宣讀宣讀完畢之後我們再進行協商那麼現在請宣讀宣讀的時間大約15分鐘請所有的助理委員的助理通知你們的委員大概15分鐘之後我們進行逐條這個協商討論謝謝"},{"start":15350.131,"end":15368.81,"text":"中小企業發展條例行政院提案第二條本條例所稱中小企業指依法辦理公司有限合夥或商業登記,合於中小企業認定標準之事業。傾向認定標準由中央主管機關按資本額經常僱用員工數等定之。傾向機關為辦理中小企業輔導業務,得就業務需要。"},{"start":15371.432,"end":15388.116,"text":"厲定標準放寬輔導對象。第35條,為促進中小企業研發創新,中小企業投資於研究發展支支出,得選擇以下列方式抵減因納盈利事業所得稅額,並以不超過該公司或有限合夥當年度因納盈利事業所得稅額30%為限。"},{"start":15391.311,"end":15413.718,"text":"一、經責定不得變更。一、於支出金額15%限度內,抵減當年度應納盈利事業所得稅額。二、於支出金額10%限度內,抵減自當年度起三年內各年度應納盈利事業所得稅額。供研究發展實驗或品質檢驗用之儀器設備其耐用年數在二年以上者,"},{"start":15414.418,"end":15432.027,"text":"則案所得稅法固定資產耐用年數表所載年數,縮短二分之一計算折舊,縮短後餘數不滿一年者,不予計算。第一項投資抵減之適用範圍,申請期限,申請程序和定機關施行期限。"},{"start":15433.387,"end":15458.478,"text":"厲檢慮及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關會同財政部定之第36條之二,中小企業增僱一定人數之二十四歲以下或四十五歲以上本國籍員工且提高該企業整體薪資給付總額時,得就其增僱該員工所支付薪資金額之百分之一百五十限度內,自其增僱當年度營利事業所得額中減除。"},{"start":15460.868,"end":15477.295,"text":" bicy 中小企業調高本國籍基層員工之平均薪資給付水準時得就非因法定最低工資調整而增加支付本國籍現值基層員工薪資金額之百分之一百五十限度內,自其增加薪資"},{"start":15478.756,"end":15492.146,"text":"當年度營利事業所得額中減除但因增僱員工所致增加之薪資給付金額已適用前項規定者不得重複記錄前二項增僱員工之對象及人數企業整體薪資給付總額"},{"start":15493.647,"end":15508.327,"text":"基層員工範圍及平均薪資給付水準計算方式、核定機關申請應具備之要件、申請期限、申請程序及其他相關事項之辦法由中央主管機關會同財政部定之第36條之三。"},{"start":15509.989,"end":15525.425,"text":"中小企業已依其他法律享有租稅優惠者,不得就同一事項重複享有本條例所定之租稅優惠,就同一事項同時符合本條例所定不同租稅優惠規定者,應則依適用,不得重複享有。"},{"start":15526.621,"end":15549.879,"text":"​​中小企業最近三年因違反環境保護勞工或食品安全衛生相關法律且情節重大,經各中央目的事業主管機關認定者不得申請本條例之租稅優惠。​​第三十九條,中央主管機關為審議中小企業發展政策得邀集相關機關及學者專家,組成中小企業政策審議會。"},{"start":15551.28,"end":15562.631,"text":"第四十條本條例自公佈日施行本條例中華民國103年6月4日修正公佈之第35條及第36條之二施行期間自103年5月20日起至113年5月19日止。第35條之一施行期間自103年5月20日起"},{"start":15572.72,"end":15597.192,"text":"​​至一百二十二年十二月三十一日至本條例中華民國一百零五年一月六日修正公佈之第三十六條之二第二項至第五項施行期間自一百零五年一月一日起至一百十三年五月十九日至本條例中華民國一百十三年某月某日修正至第三十五條及第三十六條之二施行期間"},{"start":15598.112,"end":15624.339,"text":"​​自一百十三年一月一日起至一百二十二年十二月三十一日至委員柯志恩等提案第三十六條之二第一項後段支付薪資金額修正為百分之兩百限度內其餘維持現行法條文第二項前項員工年齡在三十歲以下者得就每年增顧本國籍員工支付薪資金額百分之"},{"start":15625.459,"end":15643.181,"text":"二百二十限度內自其增顧當年度營業失業所得額中減除。第三項本國籍現職基層員工薪資金額修正為百分之二百限度內其餘維持現行法條文。第四項至第六項維持現行法條文委員賴士寶等提案。"},{"start":15643.901,"end":15667.676,"text":"厲三十六條之二第一項同委員柯志恩等提案條文第二項前項員工年齡修正為二十四歲以下者其餘同委員柯志恩等提案條文第三項至第五項同委員柯志恩等提案條文第六項本條中華民國一百十三年某月某日修正之第二項第三項第四項及第五項規定自一百十三年一月一日"},{"start":15668.636,"end":15696.779,"text":"​​施行至120年5月19日指,不是用第40條但書之規定。委員楊瓊英等提案第36條之二除第二項前項員工年齡修正為29歲以下者其餘同委員柯志恩等提案條文增訂第36條之四中小企業得在投資於下列用途向下支出金額百分之三十限度內自當年度起三年內抵減"},{"start":15698.16,"end":15715.595,"text":"​​各年度應納盈利事業所得稅額,一、人才培訓,二、品牌發展,三、健全會計制度,中小企業當年度前項各款支出,超過前二年度前項各款支出所歸屬經費平均數者,超過部分得按50%抵減之。"},{"start":15718.956,"end":15743.995,"text":"台灣民眾黨黨團提案第一條具中修正為並輔導其自力成長及升級轉型其餘維持現行法條文。增訂第七條之一為推動中小企業升級轉型強化其經濟韌性及競爭力經濟部應推動下列措施一、升級轉型二、人才培訓三、基礎設施優化四、資金協助"},{"start":15744.596,"end":15749.283,"text":"五、其他協助措施。嫌向第一款所定升級轉型措施如下。"},{"start":15750.852,"end":15773.34,"text":"一、協助中小企業推動低碳化、智慧化。二、拓展商圈、街區店家、中小企業商機之優化措施。三、協助中小企業運用低碳化與智慧化出口拓銷,及推動匯展產業節能減碳。四、推動列管市場及業市之優化措施。前二項措施經濟部得責定以獎勵補助,"},{"start":15775.56,"end":15794.567,"text":"厲施補貼、輔導或協助貸款方式為之,並得視個別產業發展及受景氣影響情形,則定特定產業提供優先或其他客製化優惠輔導或補助,為推動中小企業升級轉型。經濟部應訂定《中小企業升級轉型辦法》第36條之二第一項刪除"},{"start":15799.769,"end":15828.531,"text":"經濟景氣指數達一定情形下等字其餘同委員柯志恩等提案條文第二項前項員工年齡修正為24歲以下與45歲以上者其餘同委員柯志恩等提案條文第三項第一項員工年齡於65歲以上者得就每年增顧本國籍員工支付薪資金額之250%限度內自其增顧當年度營利事業所得額中減除"},{"start":15829.977,"end":15850.742,"text":"第四項,條高基層員工之平均薪資幾副水準時,得就每年非英法定基本工資調整,而增加支付本國籍現值基層員工薪資金額之百分之二百限度內,自其增加薪資當年度營利事業所得額中減除,單因增雇員工所致,增加"},{"start":15851.542,"end":15877.621,"text":"之、薪資及付金額已適用前二項規定者不得重複記錄。第五項具首修正為第一項及第二項,其餘同行政院提案條文第三項。增訂第36條之四,第一項同委員楊瓊英等提案條文第二項,前項各款當年度支出超過前二年度前項各款支出所歸屬經費平均數者,超過部分得按50%抵解。"},{"start":15879.763,"end":15893.138,"text":"厲檢之第四十條本條例自公佈日施行中華民國一百零三年六月四日修正公佈之第三十六條之二施行期間自一百零三年五月二十日起十年止"},{"start":15893.919,"end":15915.136,"text":"​​本條例中華民國105年1月6日修正公佈之第36條之二第二項至第五項施行期間自105年1月1日起至113年5月19日至。​​本條例中華民國113年某月某日修正之第36條之二施行期間自113年1月1日起至122年12月31日至。"},{"start":15920.171,"end":15942.031,"text":"國民黨黨團提案第三十六條之二同委員柯志恩等提案條文委員張志倫等提案第三十五條除第三項莫具修正為由行政院定之其餘同行政院提案條文第三十六條之二第一項具中修正為得就其每年增顧該員工所"},{"start":15943.712,"end":15968.658,"text":"而增加支付薪資金額之150%限度內其餘同行政院提案條文第二項第二具修正為得就每年非英法定基本工資調整而增加支付本國籍現職基層員工薪資金額之150%限度內其餘同行政院提案條文第三項具首修正為第一項及第二項其餘同行政院提案條文"},{"start":15969.358,"end":15988.667,"text":"第四十條本條例自公布日施行第二項前段修正為中華民國一百零三年六月四日修正公布之第三十五條及第三十六條之二施行期間自一百零三年五月二十日起十年至後段文字及第三項第四項同行政院提案條文"},{"start":15990.162,"end":16008.855,"text":"cellence 委員王世堅等提案。第35條同委員張志倫等提案條文。第36條之二,中小企業增僱一定人數之24歲以下或45歲以上本國籍員工,因而提高該企業整體薪資及副總額時,得就其每年增僱該員工"},{"start":16010.336,"end":16035.555,"text":"​​所支付薪資金額之百分之一百七十限度內,自其增顧當年度營利事業所得額中減除。​​中小企業調高本國籍基層員工之平均薪資給付水準時,得就每年非應法定基本工資調整額增加支付本國籍現職基層員工薪資金額之百分之一百七十限度內,自其增加薪資當年度,"},{"start":16036.756,"end":16065.777,"text":"一、中小企業調購本國籍薪資未達主計總署公佈之新年度全時受雇員工經常性薪資平均數、員工資平均薪資給付水準時,得就每年非應法定基本工資調整而增加支付本國籍限職基層員工薪資金額之百分之二百限度內,自其增加薪資當年度營利事業所得額中減除。"},{"start":16066.678,"end":16083.268,"text":"因第一項、第二項及第三項所增加之薪資及付金而不得重複記錄,第五項具首修正為第一項、第二項及第三項其餘文字同行政院提案條文第三項,第四十條同委員張志倫等提案條文。"},{"start":16086.209,"end":16107.342,"text":"委員郭國文等提案第36條之二,中小企業增僱一定人數之員工且提高該企業整體薪資給付總額時,得就其每年增僱本國籍員工所支付薪資金額之百分之一百五十限度內,自其增僱當年度營利事業所得額中減除,前項員工年齡在24歲以下或45歲以上者。"},{"start":16110.564,"end":16130.551,"text":"則就每年增顧本國及員工支付薪資金額之百分之二百限度內,自其增顧當年度營利失業所得額中減除。第三項末,修正為已適用前二項規定者其餘同委員張志倫等提案條文第二項。第四項具首修正為前三項所定。"},{"start":16131.411,"end":16147.37,"text":"其餘同行政院提案條文第三項。第五項,本條中華民國一百十三年某月某日修正之規定自一百十三年一月一日施行至一百二十二年十二月三十一日止,不適用第四十條但書之規定。"},{"start":16150.509,"end":16176.582,"text":"cellence 委員邱瑩等提案第二條同行政院提案條文第三十五條同行政院提案條文第三十六條之二第一項及第二項新資金額修正為175%限度內其餘文字同行政院提案條文第三十六條之三同行政院提案條文第三十九條同行政院提案條文第四十條同行政院提案條文"},{"start":16180.782,"end":16199.901,"text":"委員秋穎等等人所提修正動議第36條之二中小企業增僱一定人數之24歲以下或45歲以上本國籍員工且提高該企業整體薪資給付總額時得就其增僱該員工所支付薪資金額之175%限度內"},{"start":16203.044,"end":16223.595,"text":"自其徵雇當年度營利事業所得額中減除,徵雇65歲以上本國籍員工且提高該企業整體薪資及副總額時,得就其徵雇該員工所支付薪資金額之百分之二百限度內,自其徵雇當年度營利事業所得額中減除。第二項,"},{"start":16225.285,"end":16233.63,"text":"cellence 中段新資金額修正為175%限度內其餘同行政院提案條文第三項同行政院提案條文。"},{"start":16237.967,"end":16264.21,"text":"委員陳亭飛等人所提修正動議第36條之二中小企業增雇一定人數之二十四歲以下或四十五歲以上本國籍員工且提高該企業整體薪資及付總額時得就其每年增雇該員工所支付薪資金額之百分之一百五十限度內自其增雇當年度營利事業所得額中減除"},{"start":16265.091,"end":16281.776,"text":"五十五歲以上本國籍員工且提高該企業整體薪資及副總額時,則就其每年增雇該員工所支付薪資金額之百分之一百八十限度內,自其增雇當年度營利事業所得額中減除。"},{"start":16282.935,"end":16310.886,"text":"​​中小企業提高本國籍基層員工之平均薪資幾付水準時,得就每年非因法定基本工資調整而增加支付本國籍現值基層員工薪資金額之150%限度內,自其增加薪資當年度營利事業所得額中減除,但因增雇員工所致增加之薪資幾付金額已,適用前項規定者不得重複記錄。"},{"start":16312.898,"end":16340.067,"text":"第三項具首修正為第一項及第二項其餘同行政院提案條文。第四項本條中華民國一百十三年某月某日修正之規定施行期間自一百十三年一月一日起至一百二十二年十二月三十一日止,不是用第四十條但書之規定。委員楊瓊英等人所提修正動議。第36條之二"},{"start":16344.025,"end":16366.213,"text":":「中小企業徵雇一定人數之員工且提高該企業整體薪資及副總額時,得就其每年徵雇本國籍員工所支付薪資金額之百分之二百限度內,自其徵雇當年度盈利事業所得額中減除,前項員工年齡在24歲以下者得就每年徵雇本國籍員工"},{"start":16366.493,"end":16393.49,"text":""},{"start":16393.63,"end":16412.737,"text":"ignty事業所得額中檢除,但因增雇員工所致增加之薪資給付金額已適用前二項規定者,不得重複記錄。中小企業於本條適用期間不符合前三項要件,自不符合要件之年度起,依所得稅法規定。"},{"start":16415.991,"end":16434.725,"text":"繼算其營利事業所得及應納稅額、前三項徵雇員工之對象及人數、企業整體薪資及付總額、基層員工範圍及平均薪資及付水準計算方式、合定機關申請期限、申請程序及其他相關事項之辦法、"},{"start":16435.265,"end":16454.428,"text":"由中央主管機關會同財政部定之本條中華民國一百十三年某月某日修正之第二項、第三項、第四項及第五項規定,自一百十三年一月一日施行至一百二十年五月十九日止,不是用第四十條但書之規定。宣讀完畢。好"},{"start":16463.697,"end":16470.354,"text":"我們現在進行協商開始。我們先看中小企業發展條例第一條。"},{"start":16476.974,"end":16494.767,"text":"好來張七高委員第一條就是為了協助中小企業改善經營環境我們裡面加了一個急升級轉型讓這個以後中小企業這個經營環境在升級轉型這邊可以納入可以幫助到中小企業好來行政部門"},{"start":16499.284,"end":16520.8,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。」案。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。案。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。案。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。案。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。案。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十"},{"start":16526.784,"end":16551.469,"text":"那我會給大家發言,但是我們希望行政部門也充分去討論,你們表達你們的立場,我們也表達我們的立場。原則上這樣子處理會比較好。師弟,你剛剛講已經有精神了,我們就把它文字具體化了。剛剛部長也說可以,好不好?同意嘛。好,那第一條我們就照民眾黨的版本通過。來,我們第二條。"},{"start":16555.882,"end":16576.434,"text":"第二條的部分,都一樣,是不是委員都提案都...第二條精神已經在裡面嘛,剛剛部長有來溝通啊,部長是說這個好像是以前那個議會的時候的...剛剛是七字一條,那一條是七字一條,現在是第二條。我們現在是第二條,第二條。"},{"start":16579.298,"end":16579.638,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":16596.722,"end":16602.885,"text":"則二、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案案 案。"},{"start":16624.062,"end":16624.703,"text":"本來就有加進來了。"},{"start":16642.327,"end":16663.165,"text":"好,那就以協議委員跟行政院版本都雷同,我們依照通過。我是充分尊重我們委員的提案。好,來,那我們接續下來,第七條之一。我們有民眾黨的版本,就一個。來,行政部門,新增。"},{"start":16664.407,"end":16681.52,"text":"跟委員報告,因為第七條之一新增的這些項目都是屬於一些行政措施之類的,其實這些內涵也涉及到我們部裡面有相關很多局處的工作,而且在我們的條例裡面其實都已經有納入這些工作了。"},{"start":16688.641,"end":16709.405,"text":"民眾黨統是希望說增訂為了推動中小企業升級轉型那因為剛剛跟部長協商之後第一條已經有加了升級轉型了嘛保持一下那是不是這樣喔張吉凱委員是不是這樣子喔因為我們可能後面還是有必須要協商啦這邊我可以接受啦這邊可以拿掉沒問題你可以接受"},{"start":16710.585,"end":16715.489,"text":"好,那我們就不以爭定。接下來,我們第35條。第35條的部分有張志倫委員、王世堅委員、還有邱毅英委員。35條,就三個。還有誰?還有任坂,四個,來。"},{"start":16736.404,"end":16762.694,"text":"來,那個就是委員。主席各位同仁,這個我比較了行政的版本跟王世堅跟邱昀的版本。都一樣嗎?怎麼看都一樣。怎麼看找不到不一樣的地方。找不到不一樣的地方就是說,我要請教財政部,這個行政提案跟邱昀的提案,都是要由中央總統機關會同財政部定資的。那其他委員的提案,"},{"start":16763.902,"end":16772.506,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。」案。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。案。"},{"start":16794.127,"end":16803.657,"text":"這位委員是不是用行政院函案由中央主管機關就是經濟部會同財政部定職,這樣比較明確啦,分工、責任歷史也比較明確啦,好不好?哪一位?"},{"start":16815.649,"end":16816.81,"text":"三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具"},{"start":16832.411,"end":16846.925,"text":"章智隆委員,沒有提案也可以說啦。章智隆委員是行政院定資啦。剛剛主管機關的回覆我本席是可以接受啦,好不好,那就照院版。"},{"start":16848.206,"end":16869.881,"text":"好,那我們就依照院版來通過第35條接下來我們第36條之二有柯志恩委員賴士寶委員楊瓊英還有羅廷惠委員民眾黨國民黨張志倫委員王世堅委員郭國武委員邱映委員"},{"start":16872.046,"end":16878.5,"text":"還有我們有邱毅委員、陳廷輝委員、楊瓊英三位修正動議。來,行政部門。"},{"start":16879.773,"end":16902.339,"text":"好跟委員報告這一條我們最主要是刪除緊急門檻還有投資額的門檻那另外就是針對一般員工的部分我們是用這個兩個這個年齡的級距來做修正就是這個修正徵僱24歲以下跟徵僱45歲以上的員工都是用150%的減除率原來減除率是130提高到150"},{"start":16911.656,"end":16933.535,"text":"是,那另外就是有委員也提到說是不是30歲是不是要把那個徵雇的門檻24歲再提高到30歲以上以下那這部分我們是考慮到就是說因為24歲以下的這個失業率現在目前大概是11點11點多那這個就業人數大概73萬人那25到29歲"},{"start":16936.718,"end":16936.878,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":16947.355,"end":16966.686,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會"},{"start":16976.272,"end":16976.932,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":17003.763,"end":17026.118,"text":""},{"start":17026.499,"end":17054.154,"text":"我覺得主席剛剛講得非常好其實行政部門我剛剛特別有強調利用職選時間我也講既然那麼多委員有版本那你不要鐵板一塊應該去斟酌各委員提出來的版本來去做有集聚的一個分配第一我們當然是要拿掉那個所謂的一個景氣的一個門檻但現在最重要的差別是說130到150才多增加20%到底有沒有這樣的一個誘因那還有如果說你現在針對24歲以下"},{"start":17056.115,"end":17067.425,"text":"那照剛剛的一個講法那這樣會不會以後反而公司會有所謂的這個失業潮解雇潮啊員工到了24、25的時候嗎就把25歲解雇然後要換24歲不對應該是說針對"},{"start":17072.423,"end":17093.834,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11屆第12條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條"},{"start":17095.751,"end":17113.086,"text":"二十二歲女性沒有服兵役所以說她二十二歲可能就進入職場男性二十二歲畢業之後現在民進黨的德政又把兵役延長一年所以就跟以前一樣如果再加上說還有研究所等等的話說不定男性要加入職場的時候已經過了二十四歲的門檻"},{"start":17114.434,"end":17128.67,"text":"那會變成你如果說你這樣子一個情況一刀切24歲以前會不會讓很多的中小企業他變成是他的選擇也有限只有女性的這個就業人口男性的就業人口相對少所以為什麼國民黨團會提出說30歲以下"},{"start":17130.692,"end":17156.149,"text":"就是看到現在最重要的一個失業的兩大族群一個是24歲以下一個是25到29歲那也是剛剛我們的主席有特別提到的那是不是能夠做30歲以上一個調整那以及現在本席也看到我們有一些委員也提出修正動議這也是我認為應該要去思考就是說45歲以上但是我們現在的一個勞動人口能夠勞動紅利如果說能夠增加的話65歲甚至60歲以上"},{"start":17160.572,"end":17183.66,"text":""},{"start":17184.325,"end":17200.323,"text":"兩百、兩百二十、一百七十五我覺得這一個部分應該是可以調整因為這今天修法不是話給不是蔡市長喊這樣你喊一百八我喊兩百二到最後折衷變兩百不是而是我們希望是說行政部門能夠去針對這樣子以及對比現在的一個勞動市場"},{"start":17201.544,"end":17215.708,"text":"閱讀"},{"start":17217.579,"end":17239.379,"text":"三十六條之二我們會要針對就是說65歲以上甚至60歲以上或55歲以上我覺得這應該要跟勞動部來做一個討論就是說是不是有增加55歲以上或60歲以上的員工進額然後能夠有增加這個減免的一個部分然後來去做"},{"start":17241.41,"end":17258.126,"text":"閱讀此兩點﹖拜託主席等下再做個裁釋,謝謝。好,謝謝。接下來我們請羅廷偉委員﹖羅廷偉委員發言完誰﹖邱志偉委員請準備,謝謝。好,我想這個部分我也非常認同這個洪孟凱委員所說的。我就是大概23歲當兵,24歲進入職場。"},{"start":17261.869,"end":17281.414,"text":"那所以以這樣子的一個狀況來說其實是蠻多的所以在你這個所限定的24歲來說我覺得基本上會很多人沒辦法去用到這一條所以我覺得在這個我們所提的是29歲以下那再來我覺得就是很簡單的一個想法嘛就是大家參加一起做集聚嘛你如果24歲以下150假設220"},{"start":17286.435,"end":17299.511,"text":"然後二十九歲以下一百五但是我要講真的啦你一百三變一百五這個誘因真的很低啊我們就是二十二十在家我們這一次希望大幅度的改革大幅度的能夠整個讓活絡經濟"},{"start":17301.693,"end":17328.307,"text":"所以在這個時候在討論到一百三遍一百五我覺得真的是我一定是非常堅持一百五絕對是不夠所以我們提的版本兩百二我希望能夠做這個相對應那再來就是人口老化還有人口長壽現在我們在講說壯士代壯士代所以相對應的是不是六十歲以上的能夠也提出一個極具我覺得這個院版應該要把這個綜合起來而不是只是告訴我們說哎呀你們的二十四到二十九會產生怎麼樣怎麼樣"},{"start":17329.267,"end":17329.447,"text":"閱讀委員賴士葆"},{"start":17346.727,"end":17361.727,"text":"adequa版本不一樣的地方就是在年齡門檻的部分大概大多數是24到45那也有人提30歲這個部分本來想聽一下勞動部的意見但是勞動部書面資料"},{"start":17363.462,"end":17368.203,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：事由：審查：事由：審查：事由：審查：事由：審查："},{"start":17387.47,"end":17413.701,"text":"這是可以科學去評估的,可以量化的。你到底是要用邱薇雲的修正動力到175,還是要用李亞妮的,還是要用行政版本150,這些都可以。但是你要有科學的依據,所以你評估哪一個版本、哪一個理解率對於這個加薪或者提高這個薪水最有效果。"},{"start":17414.461,"end":17440.303,"text":"不是這樣現在可以划的。這個方法也可以划。我想說195也可以。221也可以。不是這樣划。這個齁,有這個版本出來齁,相關的報告,你就要檢查這個版本,到底它的優異效果哪一個最強。優異效果最強,它就會帶動這個加薪的幅度也會最明顯。所以今天是要考慮的齁。如果這個數據沒有很明顯讓大家參考的話,我是主張齁。"},{"start":17442.865,"end":17443.666,"text":"賴主席"},{"start":17462.609,"end":17483.622,"text":"現在因為低薪跟通膨的問題都很嚴重所以這個條文是非常重要我們肯定這次經濟部主動願意修這個條文把這個落日條款的時間往後而且刪除了景氣啟動這個門檻這個大家有志一同看起來這條文大家都是肯定的那現在看起來就是很多委員跟黨團的這個提案"},{"start":17485.558,"end":17485.658,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":17505.882,"end":17525.932,"text":"adequate 楊瓊英委員跟賴士葆委員柯志恩還有民進黨的郭國文兩百這看起來英雄手劍劣童這應該是目前最大的一個公約數那另外我們民眾黨團特別提了一個點因為現在大家都在鼓勵壯世代就業因為你從日本韓國這很多亞洲國家的這個年長者壯世代就業"},{"start":17526.932,"end":17554.987,"text":"台灣比起來顯然都是偏低的那麽國立壯士代可以二度就業或者延長退休所以我們建議說明訂一個新的這個增訂一個新的條文65歲以上的員工檢出率把它提高為250%很期待就是說等一下我們可以看起來每個人提的不太一樣可是找到一個最大的公約數我是比較不建議說這個條文要留下來擱置或什麽樣我們找到一個大家比較能夠共同接受的這個"},{"start":17555.947,"end":17573.882,"text":""},{"start":17577.582,"end":17596.664,"text":"主席,我們當時提這個條文最大的誘因其實包括提24歲以下是希望不再升學的青年人他是能夠提早進入職場而中小企業如果有這樣的用人需求的話他聘用年輕的"},{"start":17597.585,"end":17599.845,"text":"賴士葆等19人擬具〈中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":17625.33,"end":17644.137,"text":"你們有沒有去算過那個稅損或者是那個差距會是多大?財政部對這一方面的意見是什麼?如果真的要創造給中小企業在聘僱上面的誘因,我覺得220也是可以啊,那個誘因是更大的。所以就剛剛邱志偉委員所提的,那個誘因對你們來講,你們現在從130只調到150,"},{"start":17649.861,"end":17650.061,"text":"閱讀員賴士葆"},{"start":17674.269,"end":17688.873,"text":"所以到底有沒有這樣的空間跟可能性?我不知道行政部門你們到底有沒有去做過評估?那你們如果寫那些連你們自己都看不懂的文字的話,我覺得這是浪費大家的時間。是不是能夠請你們說明?待會兒一併說明。來,我們最後再請賴樂文委員,來。"},{"start":17692.844,"end":17709.677,"text":"好,我也請教一下大概經濟部跟產生部的事別說明一下啦,就是說年齡的部分,包括剛剛提到這些150、200這些的耳朵的部分,那它到底會造成是多大的一些效應,另外還有多少的一些碎損,是不是能夠有一些比較"},{"start":17710.518,"end":17726.213,"text":"清楚的一些客觀的數據讓大家來了解一下年齡跟額度的部分它會產生的整個產業上的效益你們評估的效益那另外可能會產生的一些稅損的部分到底有多少讓大家有一個比較客觀的數據來做一個討論好不好好謝謝"},{"start":17729.053,"end":17743.485,"text":"行政部門要回答以前那個勞動部其實這個勞動部應該是在很重要的角色尤其今天國發會我為什麼在剛開始會休息三分鐘因為這個對於整個經濟的"},{"start":17747.005,"end":17770.23,"text":""},{"start":17770.23,"end":17789.957,"text":""},{"start":17790.077,"end":17793.76,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：審查：事由：立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第11屆第12條文修正草案：審查：事由：審查：事由：審查："},{"start":17811.952,"end":17834.304,"text":"你如果只有增加20那根本就沒什麼成效啦所以國民黨的黨版提出來是檢除率是200那本席跟賴士葆委員羅廷惟委員還有姓任委員曾志堅委員的修正動議裡面是有部分是要到220那也有邱英文的修正動議175"},{"start":17838.087,"end":17857.902,"text":"這是目前行政部門所提的,是所有的委員沒有辦法認同的。那以上補充,那請說明。好,謝謝各位委員。那確實我們現在的稅事事務評估是只有用行政院版的評估。那我們針對委員版的目前的評估的部分,我們現在有同仁在現場正在試算當中。"},{"start":17860.143,"end":17860.243,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":17881.783,"end":17903.951,"text":""},{"start":17904.071,"end":17908.777,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。」案。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案。案。"},{"start":17921.534,"end":17921.694,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":17937.346,"end":17937.466,"text":"賴主席"},{"start":17970.151,"end":17994.968,"text":"報告主席,各位委員,勞動部是這樣子,我們推中高齡者及高齡者就業促進法裡面,的確是中高齡是45到64,65歲以上是高齡者。那在一些服務措施上是有一些不一樣,比如說高齡者的就業服務職業訓練其實都是比較有差異的。那包含在雇用獎助的部分,中高齡的部分是一萬三,高齡的時候是一萬五。"},{"start":17996.248,"end":18009.216,"text":"adequate 兩個族群上面是有一些的差異性。另外在這個青年的部分其實我們的投資青年方案裡面的服務族群是15到29歲。為什麼是29歲當然是參考勞動統計裡面的那個年齡的這個"},{"start":18018.441,"end":18044.349,"text":"閱讀他的失業率狀況。經濟部剛剛提的24歲比較多,也就是初次尋職的那一個部分。以上說明。是勞動部的說明。來,各位同仁。現在我們慢慢有一個點,就是年齡的部分30歲以下是可以認同的,在中小企業處。好來,哪一位先?邱志偉委員。這個每一項的法律修正或者每一項政策,"},{"start":18044.949,"end":18073.272,"text":"不可能這個面面俱到也不可能每一個單位都達成百分之百的共識機關有他的本位嘛你要看這個這個修正案最主要是要促進企業徵雇員工達到加薪的目的這是政策的優先性這政策的強度跟這必要性跟急迫性遠帶其他的政策目的跟效果那當然財政部他的最主要他滿腦子想的就是租稅公平對不對"},{"start":18074.611,"end":18098.023,"text":"租稅公平當然我也覺得這很重要。但是你在橫租法院的必要性的時候、急迫性的時候你就應該把加薪跟勞動市場的穩定跟流財放在租稅公平之前。我相信王部長跟財政部次長你們的意見絕對立的。"},{"start":18101.55,"end":18128.553,"text":"一個是油門 一個是煞車我可以理解這個財政部的立場你所有的政策都要達到這個租稅公平在這個大帽子底下你才能跟我談其他的所以法國可能就是在這沒意見我想問一下私底下 不要私底下我要公開問啊 部長以你合理的部分啊 是不是高一點比較好我還沒啦 我還沒問完啦"},{"start":18129.701,"end":18131.902,"text":"三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具、「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案案案。"},{"start":18157.853,"end":18160.235,"text":"我還是再次強調,因為剛剛有提到勞動部有說是15到29歲去做一個這個不管是失業的探討"},{"start":18185.111,"end":18212.852,"text":"所以我就覺得30歲以下不管24到29不管是24以下或者是29以下都應該我們有共識就是30歲以下都要照顧不管是第一次就業或是第二次就業而且我們就再一次的強調現在要當兵當一年了所以他的這個所謂的讀書完以後可能面臨的是兵役那再來才會去就業那24歲以下能實際照顧到的人有限所以我們還是再一再的強調雖然財政部有自己的一個租稅公平"},{"start":18213.012,"end":18236.135,"text":""},{"start":18236.135,"end":18261.408,"text":""},{"start":18262.934,"end":18285.099,"text":"首先啊,原則上我們對於中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二我們都會全力的支持不管行政院版還是國民黨版、國委員版但是我以前修改的話我看起來都是作假的你現在想想看大學畢業生財政部長部長妹妹們你坐著聽著就可以"},{"start":18290.851,"end":18315.221,"text":"大學畢業生是在22歲到23歲,你24歲以下那時還要準備就業,還有一些服兵役的問題。所以那時候是假的,表面上是很照顧年輕人,其實是作假的。所以即使你要重新的思考,剛剛有很多委員提出來,服兵役在一年大概到24歲到25歲,所以改成29歲是合理的。"},{"start":18320.829,"end":18344.756,"text":"這個期間剛剛當完兵學校畢業還要接受社會的磨練所以你不要想到財政部只想收入你要以小換大那你給我們資料如果你反對29歲29歲這邊的減除立法大概會減少你們多少收入你不要一面的排斥點到問題你就要了解了"},{"start":18345.948,"end":18367.688,"text":"還有我們的經濟部中小企業你拿出來現在啊你那個加成減除率提高到150%但是是120%只增加了欸130%只增加了20%不痛不癢沒有給人家有感覺所以我主張啊這個"},{"start":18370.828,"end":18371.608,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具"},{"start":18390.439,"end":18404.804,"text":"我相信對於財政的稅收不會差很多,像我們台電虧了那麼多都補助大企業那麼多了,對一般平民百姓稍微放寬一下,不要在那小地方輕輕去繳,謝謝。接下來我們請張其康委員,張其康委員,好,紅門海文準備。"},{"start":18412.253,"end":18436.185,"text":"我剛剛第一次發言有特別整理一下我目前的九個黨團或者是立委的那個提案嘛裡面有五個都已經提到兩百以上了所以我剛剛同意剛剛田偉講的就是我記得至少要是二字頭而且看起來提案最多的是兩百二十所以我建議就是盡可能往兩百二十這個而要有感啦要不然修這個法老實講幫助上也在二字頭以下基本上就"},{"start":18437.005,"end":18462.705,"text":""},{"start":18463.055,"end":18491.295,"text":"adequa給他一個比較友善的這個職場他們願意回來或是延長他們的這個就這個工作的時間點那這次既然已經要修這個法嘛剛剛都已經講了年輕人要在30歲以下啦那65歲以上是不是我們給在這個減除力上面都給他一些好定這個減除力250%謝謝好接下來洪孟凱委員36之二齁已經不是第一次例所以我覺得這一次修法就要到位"},{"start":18492.011,"end":18514.054,"text":"那既然要到位經濟部、勞動部、財政部三個部會要共同合作因為財政部一定不願意放經濟部一定希望加強力道嘛勞動部一定希望是能夠照顧到勞工嘛我們都認同我也認為說這是各部會本位主義應該但是要去統和所以本席才會講是說現在不是在擦傷"},{"start":18514.735,"end":18527.824,"text":""},{"start":18528.701,"end":18544.077,"text":"厲一、勞動部講29歲以下是失業等於是這樣的一個計算我們在這一次的修法就一定要涵括29歲以下這第一個部分人的部分第二勞動部方也說了有高齡這個"},{"start":18546.48,"end":18566.261,"text":" 較為年長跟高齡一個分別是45歲以上一個是65歲以上這兩個級距也應該要把握所以才會講說45歲以上也許有一個級距但65歲以上能夠有再多一個級距因為這樣子能夠促進我們整個勞動市場的一個活路"},{"start":18568.139,"end":18586.653,"text":"勞動市場絕對不是只有勞動部的工作。我開宗明義在直學的時候就講,經濟部很重要。你如果說公司都沒有人來上班的話,那你經濟怎麼會好?不可能。所以65歲以上當然需要去有更大的誘因去加強。那另外多少的這樣的一個額度?有175、有200、有220。"},{"start":18590.787,"end":18597.651,"text":"應該分配去做這樣的一個集聚的一個展現所以我比較具體建議啦我知道超委真的非常辛苦我比較具體建議我們"},{"start":18599.611,"end":18616.969,"text":"adequ部分三十六條之二保留送協商那在這一個月的協商的冷凍期裡面三個部會開會把版本整理出來分別依照今天我們委員的發言內容29歲以下並集聚以及45歲以上還有65歲以上並集聚以及訂這個稅額出來"},{"start":18622.495,"end":18641.796,"text":"那財政部就要有把關的責任跟精算的責任。勞動部要捍衛勞工權益。經濟部應該去想是說怎麼樣來能夠有效提出來。民眾是真的覺得有感的。而不是說我們十年後還是我們在這一次修還是修一個不痛不癢的版本。那你這樣子延長十年沒有意義。"},{"start":18643.177,"end":18643.197,"text":"閱讀委託"},{"start":18661.852,"end":18679.24,"text":" bicy,行政院版以及國民黨團、民進黨團、民眾黨團各一個版本大家來進行討論,這樣四個版本也許會比較容易聚焦,那也比較能夠釐清,但這樣子也才能真真正正我們要趕在最快的速度能夠把這個36條之二給修正通過嗎?"},{"start":18680.34,"end":18680.52,"text":"財政部"},{"start":18702.452,"end":18720.242,"text":"cellence 財政部到底有沒有去算過每一個委員的版本包括220、175你們的稅損是多少這個財政部有沒有去算過然後第二個第二個齁剛剛講勞動部勞動部有說對於65歲以上的再就業你們有補貼是補貼給雇主還是補貼給"},{"start":18723.574,"end":18723.834,"text":"閱讀《中小企業發展條例》"},{"start":18746.681,"end":18748.342,"text":"adequate to the tax benefits."},{"start":18748.342,"end":18749.542,"text":"I agree with that."},{"start":18749.542,"end":18752.143,"text":"So, I don't know if you guys have calculated it."},{"start":18752.143,"end":18758.166,"text":"It looks like the opinions of the various committee members are quite different."},{"start":18758.166,"end":18761.127,"text":"So, I agree that we can keep Song Xiesheng."},{"start":18761.127,"end":18766.05,"text":"Personally, I don't think we should insist on the age part."},{"start":18766.05,"end":18771.052,"text":"If it's really under 29 years old, we can let him have such a tax benefits."},{"start":18771.052,"end":18775.354,"text":"This also depends on the labor department's"},{"start":18775.794,"end":18798.217,"text":""},{"start":18799.056,"end":18810.898,"text":"好,那我也建議其實財政部跟經濟部我也請向多給一些支持,讓這些中小企業能夠有多一點的空間,那盡量把這個盤點出來,那讓委員會大家知道說我們再來抄一箱再來處理。"},{"start":18811.428,"end":18836.71,"text":"好 謝謝 那這個主席台這邊齁 綜合大家寶貴的意見 行政部門各部門 那麼你們也充分聽清楚那當然在我們的討論當中呢 將近半個鐘頭大家對於怎麼樣照顧中小企業 大家都有共識年齡級距30歲以下也都有一個認同 朝野都有認同 那我也希望行政部門來支持 那現在"},{"start":18837.551,"end":18859.019,"text":""},{"start":18859.019,"end":18876.323,"text":""},{"start":18876.443,"end":18894.384,"text":"就是目前不管勞動部不管國發會不管財政部你們目前所做的執行方案政策都不足以符合目前社會所需要所以雖然你們有本位但是也不因為本位而去抹煞了"},{"start":18895.265,"end":18911.783,"text":""},{"start":18911.783,"end":18937.159,"text":""},{"start":18939.454,"end":18950.325,"text":"則三、本院委員柯志恩等19人擬具 «中小企業發展條例第三十六條之三條文修正草案案。"},{"start":18956.112,"end":18957.073,"text":"三十六條之四條文修正草案案。"},{"start":18985.233,"end":19007.915,"text":"來,有民眾黨的版本跟本席的版本,來。是為了鼓勵這個中小企業投資在人才培訓,還有品牌發展跟健全會計制度。所以我們在這個條文裡面增訂。這個條文本來講的是說,中小企業在投資下列用途的時候,支出的這個金額30%,"},{"start":19009.957,"end":19033.933,"text":""},{"start":19034.033,"end":19059.099,"text":"adequum人才培訓跟品牌發展對台灣來講很重要。那健全會計制度雖然剛剛財政部在我質詢的時候有表達你們的意見但是呢你說其他的部分都已經在做我還是再次強調因為目前的政策執行面沒有辦法符合那所以如果是在這個"},{"start":19060.299,"end":19067.044,"text":"adequate三年,以前我們有投資抵減五年的。這個對於我們中小企業來講是幫助很大。那如果說在人才培訓品牌發展跟健全會計制度去把它擬定出來,而且能夠在它的平均者超過的部分按百分之五十來抵減。我覺得這個對我們中小企業來講,它是一個可以循序漸進幫助的"},{"start":19085.896,"end":19113.41,"text":"adequa方案。所以我們也敬請行政部門來支持。其他委員有沒有要發表?基本上大方要我支持。但是我還是覺得這個政策或者修法要有它的政策修法的效果。第一個支出百分之三十。三十要經過精算。為什麼不是四十?為什麼不是五十?然後這個三點我沒有意見。然後以那個所稅額抵減的部分"},{"start":19114.65,"end":19143.217,"text":""},{"start":19143.687,"end":19169.733,"text":"這不是經濟有化解受力,化解受力我也要化,對吧?我也要寫寫修正東西,化解受力。這樣,人家想法是以理服人,以數據服人,以科學來立法。所以我剛剛這個部分,如果在一個月,請財政部跟經濟部針對本市所提出的相關的數據,你要去做精算。再變成這個草擬協商,我們再來處理。"},{"start":19172.888,"end":19189.438,"text":"好謝謝,那我們請最後我們請戴瑞文委員,謝謝。好一樣齁,我也是要請經濟部跟財政部也再算一下了好不好,就是他所,這樣的條文的話會產生多大一個產業上的一個效益。另外,稅損的部分是不是也估出來給委員會參考了好不好。我也建議在查理協商再一併來處理,謝謝。"},{"start":19190.95,"end":19212.065,"text":"好,謝謝。那我們最後請侯孟楷委員來。好,因為財政部今天的一個報告只有講說審慎考量,但是沒有任何數據。所以本席很具體的講,我們這個保留那送協商,那在協商的時候請財政部這邊要具體算出來,那我們支持這樣的方向。"},{"start":19212.785,"end":19234.371,"text":"你說那個不管是百分之三十還是這個百分之五十的抵檢的部分可以請用數據來說服委員而不是說審慎考量四個字我覺得這樣子鐵板一塊沒有幫助我們支持這個修法方向所以說這個修法要保留只是到底數額多少請提供數據我們再來做討論謝謝"},{"start":19236.152,"end":19257.227,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":19257.447,"end":19263.394,"text":"因為會提出法案的部分不管是數據我們都有所本地提出58是超過30%之後所超越的那一個區塊的50%的一半去抵減"},{"start":19272.364,"end":19289.352,"text":" bicyncyn地去抵檢。所以呢,我想要請教行政部門,剛剛有委員就是說一樣併36條之二的部分,請你們再去試算清楚。那這個方向,中小企業應該這個方向是朝這個方向來進行嗎?是不是?請做說明。"},{"start":19290.536,"end":19312.157,"text":"跟委員報告,就是說剛剛委員的意見我們就帶回去,我們來跟財政部這邊再來研究。另外就是說,其實現在政府都有很多的專案都在做,人賠、品牌這些專案,我們都還是持續在做。當然就是說,現在用租稅的方法鼓勵中小企業他們多投入的話,"},{"start":19313.098,"end":19329.677,"text":"這個我們再回去再評估一下那個效果。就朝這個方向嘛。我要再一次強調齁,中小企業,目前你們所做的不管什麼樣的方案,就是沒有達到人民產業界所需。所以不要再重複那一句話,我們有很多在做,你自打嘴巴嘛!"},{"start":19330.953,"end":19345.925,"text":"就是因為不符合目前的所需,我們才要再提出啊。要符合幹嘛大家坐在這邊,好不好。大家一起來協助中小企業嘛。你故意人,你不要再講那一句話了。一直重複一直重複,動不掉。"},{"start":19346.806,"end":19360.414,"text":"好吧,好,那綜合大家討論,充分地討論三十六條之四的部分,原則以民眾黨以及本席所提案的這個方向,那但是請行政部門再詳實去將你們"},{"start":19363.7,"end":19364.1,"text":"第四十條"},{"start":19392.811,"end":19416.369,"text":"每一個委員的版本應該都一樣嗎?有沒有?有沒有?不一樣不一樣。有民眾黨、有國民黨、有張志倫委員、王世堅委員、還有邱映委員。來有沒有?文字看一下。來,哪裡不一樣?都不一樣。哪裡不一樣?其實就是延長十年啦。對不對?你這就是延長十年做解套嘛。"},{"start":19418.502,"end":19418.662,"text":"請宣讀協商結論。"},{"start":19444.605,"end":19459.913,"text":"中小企業發展條例協商結論第一條照台灣民眾黨黨團提案通過第二條照行政院及委員邱毅英等人提案通過第七條之一不予增訂第三十五條照行政院提案通過"},{"start":19461.213,"end":19489.377,"text":"厲三十六條之二行政院版與所有委員提案及各委員所提修正動議均保留送院會處理。厲三十六條之三趙行政院提案及委員邱益寅等人提案通過。厲三十六條之四委員楊瓊英等人臺灣民眾黨團提案均保留送院會處理。厲三十九條趙行政院提案及委員邱益寅等人提案通過。厲四十條趙行政院提案通過宣讀完畢。"},{"start":19493.715,"end":19511.661,"text":"好,那請問同仁,照剛才宣讀的協商結論通過,請問有異議?沒有,那我們就通過。那討論事項所列的中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案並審查完略,那寧據審查報告提議院會討論。那請問,就要協商。"},{"start":19517.232,"end":19529.72,"text":"需協商,院會討論時由本席說明,通過條文相關法制用語授權主席及議事組人員整理。"},{"start":19539.735,"end":19567.995,"text":"議員議員議員"},{"start":19578.434,"end":19597.449,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：審查：事由：審查：事由：審查：事由：審查："}]}},{"id":"15872","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15872","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/3832c314c43c373de1784ed6585ee25e8bd03a951da4504b3be8d109af184be45acdc032ba9f83cb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答)【4月29日及5月2日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-02","start_time":"2024-05-02T08:30:14+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-02T12:55:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":15886,"委員發言時間":"08:30:14 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會第9會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會"},{"start":2098.027,"end":2124.868,"text":"那總統在106年12月6日公布本條例只在實踐教育均等政策目標平衡成像教育發展本條例已配套法令執行期間已經超過6年本部採分區座談形成形式來共召開15次的偏遠地區教育會議廣泛的來收集有關在學校家長等相關的意見來作為整個政策以及法案"},{"start":2125.39,"end":2145.516,"text":"未來研修的參據。」那以下就這個整個條例發布執行的成效跟檢討跟委員做以下的報告那在偏遠地區學校合定方式跟校數本部依照本條例跟偏遠地區學校分級及認定標準規定透過交通、文化、生活機能、數位環境及社會經濟條件等面向"},{"start":2146.116,"end":2153.384,"text":"學校教育發展條例第八條文修正草案 與與分級認定,每三年檢討一次。本部從108年廣征各界建議,並將原來的九項評估指標修正為16項,經統計偏遠地區學校校數有微幅增加,從107到109學年度合併的校數1,177校,"},{"start":2168.513,"end":2185.828,"text":"到110年到112學年度合定的校數略增為1,206校。針對偏遠地區學校發展條例實施迄今的相關配套政策說明本部每年總共會編列預算約26.4億分別就資人力、設備改善、學生學習及教師專業發展等面向來協助偏遠地區學校的發展"},{"start":2194.475,"end":2207.128,"text":"有關在充實資質人力的部分110年到112學年度補助偏遠地區國中小合理教師員額透過一般性補助款考核引導學校員額控管比例不得超過8%也釋出了教徵的缺額從107到112學年度共分發"},{"start":2213.214,"end":2214.576,"text":"教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":2231.699,"end":2247.041,"text":"閱讀推動教師107-112學年度聘任專業輔導人力共有528人次。本部持續穩定偏遠地區學校教師的留任由師培大學開設偏遠地區學校學士後教育學分班"},{"start":2247.261,"end":2266.768,"text":"教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案 並提供志願赴偏遠地區學校服務的校長、老師相關的這些包含傷害保險等的補助。此外也在140年度會發放第一次的9任獎金。目前出估大概會有8700位左右的"},{"start":2266.988,"end":2271.693,"text":"教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。 其他107學年度偏遠地區學校專任教師在條例實施前,國小階段流動率約2.14%,國中階段"},{"start":2283.985,"end":2286.548,"text":"教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案．第八條條文修正草案．第八條條文修正草案．"},{"start":2301.727,"end":2313.992,"text":"中止偏遠地區學校數位資訊、藝文及體育設施也推動偏遠學校中央塗紡計畫總共投入超過63.1億元補助偏遠地區非三非四學校設施設備108到112年總共補助了2561校次約43.2億元108至112年補助校設"},{"start":2324.956,"end":2335.479,"text":"宿舍來做新改建有1605校次有850棟校舍約補助5.8億元在支持偏遠地區學校學生學習以教師專業發展的部分補助學校多元試探活動以教師專業支持每學年合計最高補助50萬元"},{"start":2345.302,"end":2351.344,"text":"107-112學年度共補助5532個校次補助低收入戶身心障礙及原住民參與課後照顧等相關的終點費的差額110-112補助偏鄉校次有1356個校次約2.1億元111學年度補助夜光天使總計畫1.1億元開辦608個校次"},{"start":2373.052,"end":2387.489,"text":"學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。 委員補助縣市學習輔助跟柏佑基金會、永寧基金會及金一基金會合作以多元模式來學習的輔助工作。 112學年度參與偏鄉"},{"start":2392.054,"end":2401.16,"text":"偏遠學校地區學生每科進步的部分約達八成也顯示透過學習輔助的部分確實有助於偏鄉孩子學習的進步從109至111學年度共有605校次辦理混齡教學107至112學年度也媒合了131位老師到164所學校進行教學補助地方政府成立區域教育支援中心"},{"start":2421.953,"end":2443.505,"text":"從108至112學年度補助了3.8億元。另為了驚橫偏遠高中發展本部也新增終點費的補助尤其是協助偏遠地區的高中職能夠來更加開設有關學生多元選修的課程這個我想也是在偏遠學校協助裡面的一個重點"},{"start":2444.533,"end":2456.875,"text":"在這個階段外界對於偏遠地區學校發展經過多次的座談主要有幾方面的建言第一部分是應該要持續強化師資聘任的穩定性"},{"start":2458.991,"end":2476.2,"text":"測試設備補助執行應該能夠更具彈性也能夠持續來推動落實行政減量第二部分是有關能夠建議要盡量的促成偏遠地區學校跟一般地區學校師生互相交流合作也能夠結合在地相關的資源"},{"start":2477.66,"end":2494.427,"text":"協助偏遠地區學校、社區及家庭的教育功能。」這部分是目前在這方面的反應。回應這樣的一個發展的建言,後續本部對於協助偏遠地區學校的發展有以下幾個重點。"},{"start":2495.447,"end":2522.983,"text":"第一是本部將持續補助偏遠地區學校合理員額督導各地方政府來降低員額管控的比例並持續推動合併巡迴教師聘任機制以補足專業輔導人力另外同步收集有關偏遠地區學校教師服務連線的各方建議另外從114年期學校可視校本的需求跨年度執行三年兩百萬的經費讓學校有更大的"},{"start":2523.463,"end":2529.566,"text":"學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案：一、邀請教育部列席就:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案：一、邀請教育部列席就:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案：一、"},{"start":2543.452,"end":2566.389,"text":"大約所有要的行政書確實會讓非常多的學校、老師、行政人員疲於奔命,所以我想這個措施未來會是我們在持續的來加強的重點。另外,我們會從113學年度起引導地方政府確實來發揮區域教育資源中心的各項功能,能夠鏈接地方"},{"start":2568.07,"end":2586.863,"text":"社政及家庭教育中心能夠對於尤其越在偏遠地區、隔代教養、單親養育的情形比例也偏高。」所以我想這個應該後續是我們要去強化的重點。那以下就針對我們委員所提修正草案的回應我簡要說明,因為詳細的部分再請委員詳稱書面資料。針對柯志恩委員等18位委員所擬具"},{"start":2591.846,"end":2612.69,"text":"學校發展條例第八條條文的修正草案,也就是希望對於代理老師,除了我們原來的專聘老師的代理教室以外,是否學校自聘也能夠列為來公費補助的這部分,那我想我們這部分謝謝委員對於偏鄉老師的關心,所提的這部分的修正我們會尊重,那另外也會再持續的收集,包含跟"},{"start":2613.13,"end":2620.694,"text":"學校發展條例第十六條修正條文,主要關心的是偏遠地區孩子在接受課後照顧等學習活動,在經費上面是否有中央權有來負擔,現在是中央補助,但是"},{"start":2634.542,"end":2646.877,"text":"大部分也都是由中央協助,但是是否用全額的部分,我想這部分我們再來整理一下,那在條文審查時再跟委員做報告。那針對馬文君委員等17位委員所擬具有關第16條、19條的修正條文,那16條的"},{"start":2651.122,"end":2657.007,"text":"這方面我想主要是針對相關意見的收集等等座談能夠有一個比較更完整的機制的建立這方面我們尊重委員的條文後續也會在這方面來收集最後是針對盧憲毅委員等20位委員所提第8條、第12條、第21條"},{"start":2672.48,"end":2695.469,"text":"其中有關第八條就跟昭緯這邊所提議一樣那至於有關是否將護理師護士也能夠來納入準用的對象這個我想因為也會涉及到跨部會的這部分我想我們在做這方面的評估那對於部落建築等相關的法規那之前在教保中心的時候我們有做過一次的討論那這一次委員在提的這部分我想到時候在條文審查"},{"start":2699.531,"end":2710.819,"text":"教育部列席及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第1會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第1會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會"},{"start":2720.575,"end":2727.057,"text":"好 我們非常謝謝潘部長的口頭報告我們現在就進行綜合的詢答每位出席委員質詢的時間是6分鐘必要時間延長2分鐘那列席委員質詢時間是為4分鐘發言登記截止的時間是上午10點30分"},{"start":2736.661,"end":2755.473,"text":"委員如果有臨時提案請於上午10點30分提出並於本委員會臨歉期委員質詢結束之後我們就來進行處理處理提案的時候若提案的委員還有聯署的委員均不在場我們原例就不予處理那我們是不是首先請發言登記第一位的萬美玲委員詢答好謝謝召委我們有請潘文忠部長好潘部長"},{"start":2766.477,"end":2770.563,"text":"委員長部長早 現在我很珍惜能夠持續你的時光了謝謝大概剩沒有很多次 對不對我也很珍惜 謝謝委員很珍惜喔 好那我們接下來討論的議題其實趙薇排的議題也非常的重要那就是關於我們偏遠地區的孩子跟教師的一個權益啦"},{"start":2784.001,"end":2797.83,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育部列席就擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案案件 及公共教育及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件 及公共教育及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件 及公共教育及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件 及公共教育及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件 及公共教育及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件 及公共教育及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件 及公共教育及文化委"},{"start":2810.117,"end":2817.601,"text":"拼箱學校三年兩百萬,這七年來也有將近一百八十幾億。這個金額看起來是多的,可是我覺得我們要考慮幾個點。第一個就是說,我們如果只是把錢下去,讓我們這些設備富麗堂皇,甚至於是非常先進,但是人是最重要的。"},{"start":2829.707,"end":2831.389,"text":"發展條例第18條文修正草案案案例第18條文修正草案案例第18條文修正草案案例"},{"start":2857.972,"end":2878.763,"text":"國小4,225名,國中545名,高中842名。這其中偏鄉學校相對的也有一定的比例,大概也在5%上下的左右,那我們還是有缺額。那剛才其實部長好像還有提到流動率其實感覺不高,就是2點多是不是?您剛好像有提到一個數字。我應該說條例實行前大概2.1多,國中1.9。"},{"start":2883.166,"end":2885.95,"text":"實施了這幾年,大概已經都降到1.2左右。我覺得這是一個很棒的成績,但是夠不夠?不夠的,因為偏鄉的孩子有剛剛我們所說到很多的問題,就是說你剛剛也提到了,可能有比如說擔心、隔代教養、資源不足、關注度各方面,"},{"start":2901.55,"end":2911.412,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會"},{"start":2929.557,"end":2935.1,"text":"施行迄今之成效及檢討：一、邀請教育部列席就:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及檢討：一、邀請教育部列席就:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及檢討：一、"},{"start":2948.848,"end":2961.774,"text":"教育部立法院第11屆第1會期教育部立法院第11屆第2會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院"},{"start":2969.497,"end":2985.148,"text":"中台地區也有這個相關的加級尤其在交通費的部分我們現在每個月目前本席現在掌握到每個月大概630塊的一個加級您知道嗎這個連一張台北到玉里的這個自強號的車票恐怕都只能買單程我是希望部長"},{"start":2986.129,"end":2994.853,"text":"做了這麼多很細緻的地方我們可能要再去詳細的去檢視該要多給的我們要把經費就把它加好加滿來所以呢我們今天的報告可以說非常的多內容在裡面但部長我想要請您自己說我們關於偏鄉的學校不管是我們對孩子的照顧包括我們課後的照顧相關的輔導"},{"start":3011.021,"end":3025.429,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":3036.255,"end":3055.356,"text":"經過一個暑假只剩下校長其他人都不見了那這個制度從現在來回頭檢視剛才跟我們報告的這個流動力還有你看8500位即將在明年可以資歷九任獎金也就表示他們有三分之一應該不只喔將近二分之一是有達到八年"},{"start":3056.016,"end":3060.639,"text":"但能不能提一下你認為現在還存在的問題點?我跟委員報告因為現在偏鄉剛才委員提到一個重點我覺得家庭的這方面的支撐確實是對偏鄉孩子目前我認為是一個我們一定要再強化因為隔代跟單親在偏遠地區比例相對於一般地區是高"},{"start":3073.827,"end":3097.284,"text":"這方面也應該孩子是最重要的所以當這個沒辦法去改變他家庭的狀況之下我覺得應該再擴大像我們說大手西小手的概念也就是孩子在晚上回到家那種陪伴學習是重要的大手西小手的這個計畫或者日夜光天使等很多的計畫那我覺得都很不錯那我想今天在這裡我們不逐條來談只希望剛剛上次我講的這一些關於偏向地區學校的問題我們要更細緻更加強好不好"},{"start":3100.546,"end":3122.751,"text":"我今天還要用一點時間特別討論一下最近有一個大家很關心的議題我想請一下吳林輝司長我們現在關於特教法的部分我們這次預告有要做一些修正特別是關於我們在分散式資源班的部分過去我們在分散式資源班的師生筆還有導師費這兩點我想跟您討論師生筆在資源班的部分我們過去是沒有我們過去是沒有去訂定的"},{"start":3134.516,"end":3157.155,"text":"竟然有辦法在這個分散式資源辦的地方把幼兒園1比15、國小1比10、然後國中1比8、這個高中1比15,第一個,怎麼定出來的?我們怎麼有辦法定出來?第二個,既然我們要修正,我們要把它定出來,然後法治化之後,為什麼只有國中是1比8,而其他的沒有達到我們之前修法所要達到目標1比8,為什麼?"},{"start":3160.237,"end":3187.385,"text":"這兩個問題這個案子我很想深入的跟國教組討論也希望他們去收集第一線的資料跟情況那當時我們委員會那邊有訂出說希望給教育部五年能夠有一個1比8的這樣的一個概念但是我跟委員報告現在這個一樣叫做資源班或巡迴班其實在幼兒園他是孩子不是抽出來的他是直接進到這個班比如進兩到三個沒錯沒錯其實形容形容是一個在轉班裡面的概念"},{"start":3187.705,"end":3192.81,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":3210.028,"end":3235.927,"text":"前幾年 去年我們才在講我們幼兒園現在的師生比1比12嘛 對不對那你還把幼兒園的這個這個分散資源班定到1比15也就是說其實我們照顧特殊的孩子其實更辛苦但我不懂為什麼你的這個指定在1比15委員你這個決定非常好為了為什麼一定要把那個一般班的幼兒園調成1比12因為那個負擔真的重啦那現在資源班那現在的資源班負擔又不重嗎"},{"start":3238.049,"end":3254.249,"text":"他就是我們有比如說有兩位或三位的幼生他在這個一般班裡面除了會減少他的班級人數以外現在這個資源班的老師的特教老師他是進到一般的普通班裡面去協助這個不是抽離式的"},{"start":3255.33,"end":3262.836,"text":"我理解但是部長我想我們既然都以這個1比8這個數字為一個目標我們既然要修訂其實本席希望我們再仔細考慮一下1比15這個數字其實是不符合現在老師的負擔那我們希望能夠再縮小一下這個師生比這是第一個本席今天要求第二個我跟昭瑋要30秒時間第二個我們過去在導師費的部分其實也沒有規範對不對也沒有規範"},{"start":3282.29,"end":3294.599,"text":"那現在就出現一個狀況了就我們現在這個導師費有的縣市給有的縣市不給那如果我們現在有一些我們規範一個班要兩個導師或三個導師但我們現在只給一個導師的費用怎麼會夠那個吳林惠市長可以答一下嗎還是部長委員教保費我們把它一致了那導師費有不不同嗎導師費你現在給的是不夠的啊請教一下市長跟署長在後面嘛你們了解嗎"},{"start":3312.179,"end":3324.092,"text":"因為目前的那個分散式資源班在現行的行政規則裡頭是每班至多一位可以給導師費,至多一位。至多一位,那我們有的是兩位跟三位導師,剩下那兩位怎麼辦?好,署長。"},{"start":3328.588,"end":3354.071,"text":"委員這個細節我再瞭解一下到時候再請跟委員說明一下因為這裡面有好幾項的經費沒有沒有那個部長可能您不太清楚其實署長很清楚我覺得這件事情我在這裡鄭重地提出來我們既然規範了不管特教班跟資源班要一個或兩個或三個老師不同的制度我們應該每一個人都要能夠享有領這個導師費而不是大家三個人或兩個人共享一份導師費部長如果不太清楚"},{"start":3354.531,"end":3361.533,"text":"施行迄今之成效及檢討。」進行專題報告：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委"},{"start":3381.657,"end":3389.206,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會"},{"start":3401.281,"end":3415.183,"text":"請師長來說明現在我們的資源班跟特教班導師是一個還是有一個以上的可能﹖說明一下那個集中式特教班一定有那一般一定是兩個那分散式資源班在過去的法規裡頭是每班至多一個"},{"start":3418.145,"end":3430.193,"text":"現況國教署在修訂高中以下學校的特教班跟資源班的專程研究方法以後就是固定一個班一個以前是自多一個那天把自多拿掉了還是只有一個好 現在劉慧琼就來了"},{"start":3431.954,"end":3432.314,"text":"教育及文化委員會主席"},{"start":3464.755,"end":3477.742,"text":"這幾年在學前教寶廢題生思生筆委員一起參與一起努力啊這個進步很大我要跟委員報告注重一下我們老師的權益就好好不好我們共同的目標謝謝謝謝萬委員謝謝部長接下來我們請洪孟凱委員謝謝"},{"start":3492.372,"end":3494.846,"text":"主席謝謝麻煩請潘文忠部長好潘部長"},{"start":3498.75,"end":3526.405,"text":"委員好部長在今天的這個專案報告之前本席先請教我們4月30號的時候有公佈國小及國中學生獎程準則這是有上線到您這邊有啊這個是一個正式那個國教法的不國教法的授權執法的發佈好那其中很多人就看到就是說裡面有一些狀況是不是修法的過度傾向於學權沒有考慮教師的教學專業"},{"start":3528.326,"end":3545.421,"text":"其中裡面有特別提到是說要求學生違反服裝遺容規定只能正向管教口頭糾正不得懲處那很多人就講說是不是變相的要廢除制服啊以前2016年民進黨政府上任之後就已經有提出這個"},{"start":3546.722,"end":3566.338,"text":"變相廢紙制服但那還僅限於說高中但現在連國小國中都要來做這樣的事情我先請教如果說違反服裝遺容的學生他就是不穿制服怎麼辦老師要怎麼做老師的現場教學專業他沒有辦法沒有辦法管教那要怎麼做"},{"start":3567.74,"end":3596.788,"text":"我跟你們報告 這個可能誤解了啦我們在109年就是公布了 如果說誤解的話 那是外界大家都誤解啦因為我底面寫的就是這個樣子教育部有正式的澄清啦 這個不是這一次修準則是在109年當時服裝儀容外界也很關心所以當時我們說學校一定要成立服裝儀容委員會邀請當然學校的老師、家長、學生代表來共同參與透過這樣的程序去律定我們這個學校服裝儀容的相關規範就是所謂的公約啦"},{"start":3597.788,"end":3624.417,"text":"公約其實在當時裡面也提到如果學生應該依照這個方式來做遵循如果學生有違反那麼應該給予合比例適當的這方面的管教部長你講的都歷史但是現在就4月30號說你針對國小國中的獎懲準則你又新增又告訴大家是說如果違反服裝儀容的話只能正向管教口頭糾正那我們就講是說其實穿制服最重要的理由是什麼"},{"start":3625.357,"end":3640.534,"text":"國小國中在這個15歲以下的學童穿制服最主要意義是我們不希望他第一他可以避免比較減少貧富差距的展現再來他有可能展現忠誠展現榮耀一個群體的概念嘛"},{"start":3641.115,"end":3664.537,"text":"那現在昨天前天沒有看到說現在連貧富差距台灣的現狀下民進黨政府執政之下貧富差距可以高達66.9%欸66.9我講現況那我們現在希望是說在國小國中的學童他穿制服不要有去比較那未來如果說你這樣放寬了會不會有人我高興穿名牌那有人我就沒有辦法每天換好衣服我剛才跟我們報告一個很關鍵"},{"start":3665.838,"end":3683.557,"text":"這個學校的服裝衣容是由這個學校的服裝衣容委員會決定這個決定包含家長如果全國我們再做一個一致性的規範大概不合時宜了那我已經知道齁之前天能啊學生加一個不是學校的外套就被學校學生處分了這個不合理吧?部長"},{"start":3685.479,"end":3711.656,"text":"只是為了保暖耶老師穿得緊緊的學生加一件外套被處罰本席在問你A你不要答B我現在只想問的是我現在只想要確認的是我們有沒有要廢紙制服沒有沒有很好部長雖然你只剩不到20天就要離開但你的宣示就代表是教育部的一個態度是沒有廢紙制服但是每個學校的規定我們要尊重好不好跟委員報告"},{"start":3713.151,"end":3726.995,"text":"每個學校因為他經過服裝委員會討論出來這個學校要兩天穿制服要三天穿便服部長本席今天心平氣和來這邊跟你就教因為外界誤解委員那麼清楚應該不會誤解就是因為你們提出來之後讓外界誤解"},{"start":3731.201,"end":3757.13,"text":"是誰造成的不要本末倒置嘛沒有本末倒置啦你本來就本末倒置如果說沒有外界誤解的話不會每一次你們在提出來的時候都有外界那麼多疑慮今天本席利用國會職權時間幫你問清楚我代表的是所有家長我代表的是關心這個議題的家長、學生以及學校教職人員每一次都是你們沒有先溝通沒有讓第一線教職人員知道大家的反應"},{"start":3758.985,"end":3787.187,"text":"今天不是在比大小聲今天要的是講清楚不要每一次遇到什麼事情的時候都在一直辯解如果說你有時間在花這些時間在辯解的話那為什麼不之前公布的時候先說明清楚先溝通清楚委員這個本來就說明過這誰的問題這誰的問題委員那個因為今天一個團體說一件事情不代表這個沒有溝通吧委員部長確認就好好不好是是OK再講一次教育部有沒有要廢除製品沒有好謝謝"},{"start":3788.764,"end":3809.135,"text":"來部長我們進入到今天比較實質的問題幾個部分偏鄉地區教育發展條例現在也已經推出了6年那可是呢之前有講過去年啊其實就國教署就已經有提出5項的一個修法期許也希望說113年學年可以執行那目前進度為何"},{"start":3810.356,"end":3836.793,"text":"五項,那應該是一個面向,不是修法的五個面向。修法的期許也要提出改善的措施,希望是說能夠改善。而且本來想是說三年檢討一次,但是因為疫情所以沒有檢討。之前推出六年,但是三年檢討一次,那沒有檢討。那現在偏鄉跟少子化問題越來越嚴重,所以我們想是說現在偏鄉教育的資源是不是更加嚴重了?"},{"start":3838.632,"end":3862.138,"text":"委員那個現在是進入第二期的檢討階段第一期有檢討所以包含那個分級跟認定標準有從原來的9項因為大家反映了所以變成15項的評估指標學校也有列針這是第一期主要的檢討的來我們有沒有看到說有媒體也報導有八成的偏鄉教師認為行政工作影響到教學"},{"start":3862.958,"end":3878.492,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會"},{"start":3878.712,"end":3879.332,"text":"教育部委員委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":3908.22,"end":3910.743,"text":"區域資源為中心,以多大的區域為概念?本席選區有2、3個偏鄉學校包括石門、巴黎"},{"start":3926.858,"end":3944.789,"text":"如果說你要以區域為概念來減輕這個行政負擔的話,是以縣市還是以什麼樣的一個區域劃分?應該不會大到縣啦,那太大了,以我們新北來講。應該,如果有我初步的構想,因為這個當然一定要跟縣市討論一下。我覺得像如果以新北為例,以那個..."},{"start":3946.67,"end":3968.88,"text":"設施議員選區劃分還是以學區劃分?我們這一次有幾個不同的模式啦不好意思我都覺得成功的經驗應該往下擴展像那個平板的採購它就更大區域但是像那個中央廚房的部分它就小區域現在做共產就是這樣所以本席現在在問的是那你們現在方向"},{"start":3969.88,"end":3982.809,"text":"大區域分小區域分還是幾個學校花一區?委員我覺得應該是比較用行政區的概念幾個比如說新北有29個行政區29個那個叫做什麼?我們教育系統的區域啦因為像板橋就一區而已板土區啦那你那個大概含在4、5個鄉鎮喔"},{"start":3992.495,"end":4009.627,"text":"是,板橋沒有偏鄉學校嘛不是,我是舉例啦我是跟委員舉例說他這樣的概念部長,是不是到現在還沒有一個點所以說你現在只能一直在披大牆不會不會那你現在方向是什麼我們聽到半天我相信媒體朋友或是說我們那麼有邏輯的人也聽不懂"},{"start":4010.367,"end":4026.714,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第15會"},{"start":4031.125,"end":4054.953,"text":"北海岸化一區金山萬里石門三芝納進來四個鄉鎮就可以有一個主要來辦然後四個鄉鎮來含瓜來使用還是說要怎麼分因為這很直接啊你們訂出來之後才能夠來幫忙我們偏鄉的行政但是不是由教育部去決定什麼時候會出來現在就在整理這個跟縣市做討論那什麼時候會出來"},{"start":4057.154,"end":4067.875,"text":"我請說五二零之前可能沒辦法啦因為這個真的要跟他們討論一下沒關係因為你既然也已經拖了八年了我也不想五二零出現出來了這是這一次座談裡面大家提出一個很重要的建議什麼時候會出來"},{"start":4070.884,"end":4098.361,"text":"七月三十就是新學年度開始前嗎?非常好就是在下個學年度等於是113年學年度開始的時候會出來就偏鄉的這個行政再來有一個叫做九任獎金今年第六頁也特別提到本席看了一下我也很鼓勵我覺得重賞之下有勇夫不然的話這些偏鄉的學校的老師他很有熱忱然後他去那也很辛苦結果我看了一下"},{"start":4099.341,"end":4123.2,"text":"九任獎金服務八年才發第一次九任獎金並且在一一四年等於二零二五年兩年後才要發任哇 等了八年終於可以拿到一筆九任獎金我覺得這是榮譽啊那我很好奇說到底九任獎金有多少錢結果我服務在偏鄉滿八年九任獎金第一次發放兩年後發放多少錢一個人"},{"start":4128.871,"end":4145.48,"text":"三個數字不一樣七萬塊九任獎金服務了八年在偏鄉七萬塊而且要等2025年還要兩年後才能拿到所以讓外界覺得說九任獎金絕對不是九任獎金九等獎金"},{"start":4146.601,"end":4151.502,"text":"教育及文化委員會第10次全期教育及文化委員會第8條條文修正草案案案案案。"},{"start":4174.01,"end":4187.713,"text":"教育部是在歧捨我們還是是在打發我們?所以要9任獎金要服務滿8年結果給我7萬塊而且7萬塊不是現在拿是2025年等到第一批服務了8年才能拿"},{"start":4190.522,"end":4209.34,"text":"能不能有變通的做法?」委員這個時程我提一下譬如說像有一些企業我也知道就是說我現在發這獎金的意義是希望是說你可以服務滿八年嘛那有一些企業是譬如說假設他年終抽獎摸到股票他可能你可以領股票但是兩年內你不得離職"},{"start":4210.401,"end":4223.986,"text":"教育及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案 案。 依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依依�"},{"start":4241.448,"end":4256.577,"text":"能不能檢討?委員這個發放的方式跟額度啦我想這個因為當時公佈實施是第一次啦這個確實可以在這樣的過程當中我們再做一個滾動的檢討但是要等這一次還是兩年後2025發放"},{"start":4257.918,"end":4278.703,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":4283.618,"end":4310.434,"text":"我說實在話我都很希望各位同仁來我辦公室我們一定都是以禮相待我也很希望能夠跟大家討論在這個殿堂上面我不是要壓過你你不是要壓過我我們是要平等的互相來質詢但是把委員的問題聽清楚直接明瞭的回答問題我覺得這比較重要我不比較大但是我重點是我今天準備的所有資料都是有所本我不會刻意找茬我跟你也沒有私人恩怨"},{"start":4312.011,"end":4330.067,"text":"偏鄉的問題真的很重要尤其是現在還有代理就偏鄉甚至被很多代理老師都覺得說這根本就是已經是一個笑話這些問題我們持續討論部長要離開我祝福但我更希望我們教育的同仁大家一起努力我們讓偏鄉能夠得到好的教育品質謝謝"},{"start":4347.304,"end":4348.689,"text":"有請柯志恩召委質詢。"},{"start":4355.247,"end":4358.768,"text":"施行迄今之成效及檢討：一、邀請教育部列席就 «偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案案件》。"},{"start":4377.694,"end":4398.356,"text":"委員如果從施肢的流動性因為那是偏向最核心的大問題那目前來看不管9任我說大概有將近不到差不多8500位他應該是表示他留了將近8年那另外一個流動力也確實從實施前到實施後有減少那我們就來看看流動力好了"},{"start":4398.496,"end":4401.357,"text":"實際上有所進步,從107年到112年大概是降到1.21至1.21,但是跟全國的流動率比起來,偏鄉還是有很大進步的空間,因為這個師資的問題還是沒有解決,特別是我常常去偏鄉看這些小孩,看我的十幾老師,"},{"start":4418.823,"end":4439.975,"text":"他們常說對於孩子來說他最大的問題就是你不管是三招四招很多的老師留不住就孩子就是不斷的沒有辦法把他的情緒投射在這個老師身上因為他不知道什麼時候這個老師又會離開這對孩子來說是一個非常大的一個精神上心理上面的一個障礙我覺得這是很重要還有我們特別來去看一些統計我們今天討論的偏鄉各位看一下這偏鄉前五名的縣市就是臺東花蓮嘉義南投跟雲林"},{"start":4447.139,"end":4453.563,"text":"全台偏鄉比例大約31這五個縣是佔據這麼大而且最重要是他合格的代理老師的比例只有12.5這對我們來說的話整個的師資的結構上面是有一個非常大的一個問題那你如果有看到這個去年九月這個聯合報裡面對於偏鄉教育的調查裡面校長當然認為你們這部的專訪我們說這部專訪當然對他們的硬體跟數位是有一些的幫助但是但是"},{"start":4477.017,"end":4478.198,"text":"教育部列席及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第1會期"},{"start":4507.399,"end":4508.623,"text":"兼具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案案件。"},{"start":4515.618,"end":4544.37,"text":"113年裡我們停辦了三間的國小那雲林今年小一的新生入學有三個學校只有一個人來報到所以我們提示除了這個部分我們大家都在修這個法的時候都很清楚知道嘛學校到底不能夠廢每個委員那時候就有很多不同的想法學校就是一個社區的一個中心嘛但是當個社區已經是凋零目前都沒有任何人的時候學校的純債率是不是需要所以這需要一個很好的一個配套請問教育部目前可以做的部分到底在哪裡"},{"start":4545.491,"end":4568.929,"text":"章偉剛所提的我一定要必須坦白地說這個發展條例確實沒有辦法去對應說少子化的這個衝擊學校的程序因為學校的學生就是來自於家庭因為現在整個人口越偏人口越少這個是一個不可逆的所以我們對於廢校的這個部分當學校都只剩下一個到兩個的時候教育部的態度會是什麼"},{"start":4569.349,"end":4573.914,"text":"委員我要這樣講因為我們用一個比較嚴格的程序去要求地方政府包含到現在還有一所縣市的學校我們還沒辦法幫他核定就是說你如果這些配套包含學生的交通事實上我才要求能夠更細緻部長我等一下會給你有發言機會我們來一一來去看嘛"},{"start":4587.748,"end":4588.188,"text":"公佈公佈公佈公佈公佈"},{"start":4605.919,"end":4619.037,"text":"去年你大家還知道嗎那個南橫的那個台東的霧露國小那個校長經過5週還找不到這個所謂的英文老師他只好上網來公告好不容易可以找到但是你會看看我們投注了這麼多所謂的雙語學校過去只有"},{"start":4621.5,"end":4626.342,"text":"三百二十八到目前為止已經到兩千多已經達到六成了但是我們偏鄉的合格的老師到底在哪裡太少太少根本找不到所以你看我們偏遠地區的英文會考代加強的連續三年都超過百分之五十部長你就可以知道這個城鄉差距有多麼的大城市的小孩還可以去補習我們偏鄉孩子連找個英文老師都找不到"},{"start":4644.309,"end":4646.371,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育部列席就擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事項公佈委員會第11屆第2會期教育部列席就擬具"},{"start":4659.406,"end":4685.994,"text":"只有4.56億,100億當中只有4.56億,只有4%,不到5%。這是我們的英語落差非常重要的緣故。所以不是我剛剛的流動率的問題,還有包括英文老師的問題,這都是幫偏鄉所呈現的。好,等一下部長綜合回答。在下面,包括我們剛剛說的生生有平板,但是呢,教育部卻要求你們給的很多的學生的確是有這樣子的一個所謂的好的一個硬體的條件。你看,"},{"start":4687.194,"end":4692.856,"text":"教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會第10次全體委員會"},{"start":4703.599,"end":4710.303,"text":"教育部還有一個政策竟然要求我們的開機率對不起前面一頁開機率必須要達到60%若沒有達到60%的話這些老師可能就要被檢討那這個被60%用這個數據來說對我來說就是一個形式主義"},{"start":4718.507,"end":4722.809,"text":"教育部長,這開支去到底做給誰看?所以即使有這些硬體的設備,但是對不起,很多時候你會發現網路速度不夠快,然後呢,很多學生自學,就發現學生自學的時候呢,都不是在看所謂的教學影片,而且老師很習慣用傳統的方法,所以授課的意願是非常的低的。"},{"start":4737.057,"end":4752.781,"text":"所以在這個原則之下面呢我就很擔心五年後是不是我們又要再太舊換新是否要再花200億給我們這些小孩可是小孩在這個整個的所有的使用的數月的教育並沒有辦法提升會不會有這個問題就雙語跟數位來說我請要回應說剛才稍微提到那個雙語學校到2000多校這就是我一再的對歪說縣市首長不能標速度數量"},{"start":4763.044,"end":4763.284,"text":"教育部合給計劃也會合給師資"},{"start":4793.004,"end":4793.765,"text":"教育部連英語詩字都是這個樣子我們如何告訴2030還要變成雙語國家"},{"start":4822.004,"end":4843.212,"text":"這個東西東西有太多,這不在我今天討論的範圍。是跟召委報告剛才那個數據。第二個是有關平板生生用平板的這個部分那個所謂的開具力其實我們是在提這個不是只要求學校我們是說幫尤其偏鄉是一個學生我們有一部那你如果學校碰到失職的困難我們都還有一個輔導的計畫但是不應該把這樣的"},{"start":4846.473,"end":4851.874,"text":"教育部就不要每一次就是講這些數字像剛剛侯孟楷委員講的有關校服的問題我兒子現在30歲他以前念龍安國小從頭到尾都沒有再穿校服了也不會有你剛剛說的那些問題所以教育部不要每一次在給你的條文對外的一個宣布的訊息上面造成人家的誤解很多時候你實際上面都是做這些事情你額外就像你剛剛說60%難怪很多人就會跳腳嘛"},{"start":4873.558,"end":4874.198,"text":"發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4893.958,"end":4910.246,"text":"我跟趙偉報告那個清大跟遙敏教大確實跟高雄市他們有在做一些合作的計畫那原則上有送到教育部來嗎?兩支學校沒送到確切的計畫案給教育部?他是一個產學的合作的所以不需要教育部通過嗎?"},{"start":4911.326,"end":4916.789,"text":"如果未來,產學合作當然要,我們不只是針對這兩所學校高雄市,他們現在高雄市正在做,因為他們有好幾個產業要在那邊,他現在正跟行政院爭取一個產業。我只是提醒部長,這個過去學校每次都給地方非常大的期望,能夠帶動地方的高校發展人才完全是無庸置疑,我們都非常的支持,我只是提醒,"},{"start":4935.417,"end":4944.242,"text":"過去來說每一次你看你已經知道嗎臺大的竹北的校區2000年是怎麼樣的方式2009年新建的一個校舍就無疾而終的臺科大也是臺南縣政府無條件提供臺南大學一塊這麼七股的校區到現在為止也沒有任何牙明交大也是在竹北校區要告訴我們要成立臺灣知識經濟旗艦園區2001年宣布到目前為止土地徵收沒有"},{"start":4961.491,"end":4986.259,"text":"所以一個大的方向出來到最後你看這是我們所調列出來整理出來的我只是提醒部長這個東西如果要設分部就很確切地告訴地方不要讓大家覺得有期待就像剛剛我所舉的例子從2000年到現在已經太多學校空有一個訊息出來大家非常的雀躍結果到最後結果無疾而終我只是提醒教育部在審到真正是要給予他們這樣的一個計畫的時候請你審慎地評估然後給予地方一個最確實的交代可以嗎好 謝謝趙薇"},{"start":4991.22,"end":5007.661,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會"},{"start":5017.959,"end":5042.984,"text":"謝謝主席有請教育部潘文忠部長備詢好請拜部長各位好謝謝部長好昨天是五一勞動節全台灣的勞工原則上依法都應該放假一天但是有點遺憾今年因為行政院來不及研議配套的措施我們教室還是沒有辦法在勞動節當天放假那更另一般基層教室困擾的地方其實還有"},{"start":5043.664,"end":5067.219,"text":"在這個數位時代由於通訊軟體發達有時候老師下班以後還會收到很多簡訊不管是家長或是學生經常是需要立刻處理跟回應的所以也有基層教師表示應該要捍衛老師們下班時間的離線權也有教師認為下班時間處理公務是不是往來都有時間記錄能不能申請加班費先請教一下部長站在教育部的部長站在教育部的立場"},{"start":5067.819,"end":5072.468,"text":"是不是支持教師能夠以通訊軟體的截圖或email或者是電子紀錄作為憑據來申請加班費?"},{"start":5074.873,"end":5100.113,"text":"我跟委員報告因為確實現在目前老師的工作型態很繁雜很多員那之前應該說有一個制度啦應該說老師如果是利用下班像這個假日啦什麼參加的活動其實他有一套加班計算的方式但這個有個前提啦因為如果說今天他是自由交談跟誰這當然不可能"},{"start":5101.474,"end":5127.632,"text":"譬如說這個學校的校長或主任有要求邀請老師做什麼事情,如果確實有這個指令,他就會跟公務員一樣啊。好,謝謝。就是有,但是看起來還不夠完備或不夠明確。我們來看一下,目前六都當中其實只有台北市、台中市有韓式明定教師加班費之籍的相關規定。所以您剛剛提到了有時候有的地方可能是默契,有的地方可能是慣例,"},{"start":5127.992,"end":5155.608,"text":"想請教一下部長教育部是不是可以積極推動地方教育局明文的來規定讓教師的加班費知己可以有相關的規定?我們這個可能要討論剛才因為說下班後老師的服務型態真的比較不一樣我想照顧勞工或者照顧工作者尤其是現在的教師其實負擔也都非常的重人數減少了但是負擔變重了因為工作的類型變多元希望教育部可以站在教師的立場積極來推動相關的知己的"},{"start":5156.348,"end":5163.792,"text":"這部分我們是不是跟縣市做一個討論?當然當然因為現在已經也有幾個模式啦很好 感謝部長自己主動討論好 那希望討論的結果我們很快可以知道接下來我們來談到今天的主題偏鄉教育106年的這個立法三讀以前偏鄉教育的困境有很多我想請教一下現在6年後了你們覺得有什麼樣的面向還沒有被改善到的嗎?"},{"start":5181.546,"end":5197.461,"text":"我應該這樣講齁 在學校體系跟學生的照顧這方面對對 說實在這個條例當中很大大家抱怨還比較多的 有一些改得不錯了 我知道一個是行政的負荷還是重 另外一個 另外一個很好"},{"start":5198.542,"end":5225.697,"text":"社區跟家長之間偏鄉學校因為它的特性,隔代教養或單親還是比例高所以在這方面也會去跟學校的學生知識上謝謝部長的理解非常完整我們來看一下確實行政的負擔非常的重就是偏鄉教師想離開的最主要的原因那對於這些困境我們到底該怎麼解決"},{"start":5226.377,"end":5228.838,"text":"行政負擔的這方面因為委員是數位資訊專屆這方面我們不斷地在做包含學校行政系統因為這個學校填表單說真話如果不透過這方面真的常常重複啦所以這一個方面是一個做法第二個"},{"start":5246.544,"end":5248.526,"text":"從這幾年我們推幾個大的政策包含深深用平板、中央廚房、偏鄉還有冷氣裝設我們用了一個模式這個模式我覺得有在做但剛剛他講的都是硬體啦沒關係我理解啦都在努力用科技不是不是"},{"start":5266.085,"end":5281.71,"text":"冷氣怎麼來幫助它行政減少?區域能力資源中心的意思就是說比如這個工作像剛才採購照說每個學校自行採購一次喔但是如果像我們這幾次的經驗是區域幫忙共同採購學校比如像午餐來講"},{"start":5282.89,"end":5297.003,"text":"把餐送到這個學校,這學校不要設廚房,不要廚房阿姨,也不用去做。」類似這樣的方式,我想應該...好,沒關係,我們之後來回放一下,來看一下到底剛剛講的哪些是跟行政負擔有關,但沒有關係,我理解您是很有心啦,我們來看接下來,"},{"start":5298.444,"end":5315.94,"text":"其實廢校很可能接下來是廢村因為我們現在人口持續減少我們有13萬的新生兒人數未來有2600個國小以後平均起來只有50出頭低於指標的50人這種所謂的小學校可能會越來越多接下來可能會有這些廢校的議題"},{"start":5316.781,"end":5339.328,"text":"就您的觀察這些近年來的這些廢校的議題其實會越來越嚴重那沒有學校怎麼會有教育沒有教育怎麼會有地方那沒有地方怎麼會有地方創生我們一直在看說這些所謂偏鄉教師的行政負擔非常的重一個老師剛進去的時候竟然學生第一個要問他的問題不是老師你要教什麼而是老師你什麼時候要被調走"},{"start":5340.848,"end":5361.101,"text":"學生問:「老師,你什麼時候會回來?」不應該是我們偏向教育想要看到的事情。我想要問的是,剛剛我們提到的行政負擔減量的部分,到底執行成效是什麼?您剛回答了很多。中央是否進行考核?考核指標是什麼?到底是誰來考核?誰來輔導?有沒有一些相關的報告?"},{"start":5363.496,"end":5389.283,"text":"委員所提的是行政減量的執行是嗎?行政負擔減量執行成效到底怎麼樣?跟委員報告這部分我幾次都一直在跟各地方教育局處長做這方面的提醒跟要求啦口頭提醒有沒有會議記錄有沒有報告有沒有研議有沒有做法因為委員這個每個縣市這是他們自治事項啦你不能要求我們新北市你所有要跟中央做要求一樣但是我舉一個具體例子"},{"start":5391.363,"end":5417.921,"text":"向校務評鑑我們就建議不要這樣普遍地去做那個是那是那已經很久以前了我知道那是我們建議這樣廢掉了謝謝我想接下來還是要持續評估同時呢也希望能夠參考用更多新的技術新北市唯利就有新北校園通的APP而且3月28號提出全國第一本的AI科技教育白皮書或許可以讓教育部來了解一下作為其他縣市的借鏡"},{"start":5418.641,"end":5437.694,"text":"用科技力來紓解行政的壓力。」另外我也想要來談一下這個更多的數位的方法進來其實我們來看一下這個剛剛這個小小露餡但沒有關係我們看到111年度的數位協許的預算高達122億前瞻基礎建設的計畫又投入150億接下來行政院又喊出4年200億達成斑斑有網路甚至有平板剛剛都一直提到"},{"start":5444.759,"end":5467.345,"text":"但是我本席一直關心的重點是這些平板是要拿來運作軟體跟工具的那我們接下來會想要請教你們就是說有這麼多的新的工具一直在產出我們是不是只重硬而不重軟接下來尤其是AI程式相繼推出有很多的這種軟體服務都慢慢地開始變成了付費的"},{"start":5468.405,"end":5489.194,"text":"接下來我們來看一下一個例子這是免費版的確GPT當你問他母湯是什麼時候他說是什麼是一個媽媽的湯像媽媽做的湯一樣混亂無章但如果你用付費版一個月20塊美金問他答得非常好他還知道我們教育部是推動是要叫無通不能叫母湯講得很好結果我們發現其實OpenAI已經測試過了"},{"start":5493.195,"end":5516.568,"text":"免費版與付費版平均少30分。到底我們不積極投入這些相關預算,不只是讓它有平板而已,它還要有軟體,這個軟體還可能是要有付費版來支持,否則我們可能會有這種城鄉差距,城市的孩子用付費版的,他做出來這些學習的履歷、學習的資料、申請學校的資料都比這些人更好。"},{"start":5517.068,"end":5544.147,"text":"那這個不是我們要的我想要問的是接下來我們到底有沒有這些AI的軟體的相關的輔助支持也想請教一下部長剛剛我們還提到開機率的問題一個硬體開機是要拿來用的是要軟體跟工具的想請教一下教育部有沒有研究過其他國家在數位教育的預算上軟體硬體的支出佔比到底各自是多少有沒有研究過"},{"start":5544.787,"end":5549.731,"text":"是,跟委員報告齁,這個生生用品版這200億當中每年吶,我想每年齁,我們投入是9億,就是要再做軟體的19億還是9億?92億比9億齁不是啦,那我講的是每年吶每年?如果4年就是40億左右啊"},{"start":5560.779,"end":5577.904,"text":"發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜卓的四分之一嘛 對不對?那四分之一這樣的比例到底是不是合理啊?會不會就是軟體不夠用啊?沒有真正讓他學習的東西才機率降低嘛?這個詳細的情形齁 這個可以給文煦 因為這個幫老師要用的教育不只是AI啦 老師在教學軟體上他只要提出建議經過整個我們這個組織"},{"start":5580.225,"end":5583.548,"text":"教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案 案件中的其他國家在數位預算上軟硬體的支出佔比到底是多少?能不能一個月內將資料以書面提供給本席?"},{"start":5605.387,"end":5610.109,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12屆第13屆第14屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第20屆第20屆第21屆第21屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22"},{"start":5634.082,"end":5660.003,"text":"學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。 更多的這些軟體的預算。最後還是要感謝潘副部長這八年來對教育部業務的付出。相信只要部長在位一天應該也都我們會有共識持續的拉近城鄉差距的這個落差以預防未來的數位落差甚至是智慧落差努力幫我們向行政院徵請支援不管是哪一天好不好期待部長帶來好消息謝謝委員委員剛才提到那個有關軟硬體還有國際的我請志柯是這邊整理後再跟委員報告謝謝請委員指導因為你這方面真的很專業好謝謝"},{"start":5665.387,"end":5668.811,"text":"好,謝謝兩位。我們接下來請吳佩奕委員。吳佩奕委員謝謝主席。我請體育署鄭世忠署長。好,請署長。"},{"start":5680.444,"end":5700.283,"text":"全中運剛落幕開幕式跟閉幕式你都有出席你覺得今年全中運順利嗎比起去年好多了我說應該在順利與不順利之間今年我們很多選手都破了佳績但是比賽的順利與否不只看成績尤其這是學生的運動會安全也很重要"},{"start":5700.643,"end":5726.838,"text":"今年有看到很多的風波在我們台北市舉辦所以我特別關心包括有我們的游泳選手因為跳水被禁賽有游泳選手女性的選手泳衣集體被偷竊去報案那當然人有抓到了我們跆拳道選手昏倒在我們台北田徑場發生在看台失火冒煙所以當時情況是看台一邊在冒煙一邊在比賽那我們的選手穩定性抗壓性非常的強"},{"start":5730.66,"end":5742.805,"text":"他說他當時看到怎麼在冒煙但他還是堅持往前衝還破了紀錄但是我覺得這個比賽算順利選手沒有受到影響這個是我們幸運但是我們應該回頭來檢討在比賽的安全性我們能不能夠事先的預防籌備讓他能夠更順暢所以我想請教一下尤其是這個當時火災的時候"},{"start":5756.531,"end":5769.304,"text":"我比較疑惑的是去滅火的是教練跟同學我們現場沒有安排工作人員嗎?報告委員第一時間因為有教練在旁邊他們就即時反應剛好旁邊有下房的滅火器那我們有沒有對看台的觀眾做引導疏散?"},{"start":5776.231,"end":5804.209,"text":"那個時候因為他的範圍不算很大那當時其他的那些觀眾有其實往旁邊那下放員其實就在旁邊因為我們下放車的現場這就是我們幸運所在因為人數剛好沒有很多但是照理說這種大型的賽事我們應該是有疏散引導的計畫我們有沒有按照SOP在走這個部分齁我希望整體的賽事結束一定會有檢案報告嘛我希望體育署要特別去看跟委員報告一下就是說臺北市部分的事的確是有計畫書我們在"},{"start":5805.53,"end":5808.072,"text":"六月會有檢討會議,那臺北停電場剛好有個防爆溝的設計,隔開了跑道跟觀眾席,所以這部分對選手當下是沒有影響的。包括這個詠英失竊,這個怎麼會外部的人士可以進到選手的休息區?"},{"start":5822.02,"end":5833.024,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":5846.881,"end":5869.019,"text":"委員好部長一樣是非常關心的我們校園裡面的性平事件那我們非常的痛心高雄發生了有一名校長是有偷拍女童的案件那目前看起來說這個行為是發生在校外但是還在調查當中目前高雄市教育局也很快做了處置即刻解聘也宣布永不錄用"},{"start":5870.74,"end":5894.809,"text":"我們在校園對性平當然是領容人但是我比較擔憂的是因為我看到我們監察院今年3月有一份報告就南投過去有一名校長劉育成校長在任教的34年間長期利用家長的信任感以及學生之間的權勢關係發生了對未成年學生性侵害及性騷擾的行為那後來發現調查下去發現不只在一所學校也不只在一個縣市"},{"start":5896.169,"end":5911.635,"text":"曾經在他任教當中的4所學校超過10個受害者。案件發生在南投也發生在新北。所以我們教育部有沒有去提醒高雄市教育局除了這一所學校之外過去的相關的行為都要去調查。"},{"start":5912.435,"end":5913.655,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育部列席"},{"start":5929.721,"end":5939.127,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育部列席就擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第11屆第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第"},{"start":5948.832,"end":5957.396,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會"},{"start":5965.52,"end":5967.28,"text":"學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案案。 委員吳淑儀委員吳淑儀委員吳淑儀委員吳淑儀委員"},{"start":5993.087,"end":6018.603,"text":"行政的減輕持續該做。」我知道我們有小校某用區域的方式來進行但我看到聯合報有一個調查在2023年81%的偏鄉教師反映行政工作對教學是有造成負擔然後有近五成的教師表示因為這樣的行政負擔會影響到他的留任意願所以對於偏鄉地區的這些小校行政的減輕我們還有沒有什麼樣的做法"},{"start":6020.264,"end":6049.084,"text":"我跟委員報告這個確實每一所學校不管大或小常常被要求要填報的資料呢要做的這個例行的事務其實是相近的然後尤其要是面對到有一些採購的事情幾乎大家都要走同一道部長你看喔像聯合報這個報導裡面還有一個案例是花蓮縣瑞穗鄉武赫國小有一位老師他同時要兼任教務主任學務主任他也是輔導主任然後呢那一年這個學校的工友退休校長還要來兼工友的工作"},{"start":6050.124,"end":6076.203,"text":"我們在學校裡面的行政編制有沒有辦法來精簡?針對這種偏鄉地區的小校?委員如果我目前的規劃跟國教這邊的討論因為一校一定要政治同樣的類型其實現在我們有將近三分之一是規模非常小的學校所以在行政減量這件事情上我們說除了透過這個數位的這個模式真的可以做一些比較減量"},{"start":6077.344,"end":6102.736,"text":"另外一個啦,我覺得應該是用區域去支持個別小型的學校所以未來在7月30號前,也就是下個學年度前我也請署長這邊要來增置這種區域資源中心的人力他是在幫忙,比如說他這個行政區內區域內有10所學校五次舉例那有一個我們資源的中心那我們就會去立定說哪些事情由資源中心來代辦不要每個學校都辦"},{"start":6106.918,"end":6129.508,"text":"這個其實對長期來講就我長期的觀察以及這幾年我們推了幾個大型的這種計畫我們目前的製作運行下來我想是有成效的只是成效還不夠快所以我想是可以多管理一下這個氣力資源中心我想應該要更普遍像我們國教院自己我們的智庫自己有做出一個報告其實是有建議50任以下的小校我們可以來做行政組織的精檢"},{"start":6131.289,"end":6138.373,"text":"所以這部分我其實希望我們國教署還是可以繼續去研議有沒有多管齊下的方式去年那個國教法修法裡面其實對我們過去習慣的教訓總等等的這一些其實在這次法修是有比較給彈性啦但是模式上我是建議還是可以長出教育部可以提出一些規範性給他們做參考就是說你不要什麼都所以一個人就要兼剛才委員所說的偏鄉地區的老師你編制都有了很大的熱情這個要兼 這個要兼"},{"start":6160.507,"end":6162.308,"text":"施行迄今之成效及檢討：一、邀請教育部列席就 «偏遠地區學"},{"start":6179.332,"end":6204.12,"text":"好 那最後我跟主席接一分鐘我想要關心的是我們的特教班的這個教師因為我們現在趨勢是普透融合可是在台北市因為我們常收到很多特教生的個案而且我發現有越來越多就是說他是滿額的班所以他必須要去跨越他原先的學區去就讀那我就去看了一下我們的數字這幾年可以說我們特教班是在動漲台北市為例這五年來特教班的數量是一樣的"},{"start":6207.461,"end":6231.604,"text":"發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。 可是我們必須要安置到集中式特教班的學生五年來增加了166人也就是說我們平均每一班特教班集中式的人數小學增加的最多平均每班從6.84人上升到7.31人幼兒園就是一直都很緊繃大部分都是在8人那我們在這個看這個實質的時候我想我們"},{"start":6233.386,"end":6252.72,"text":"現在是總量控管可是呢你們經過你們的評估要安置到集中式資源班的學生的數量就是在增加的可是我們班數你們用總控管動長不動變成在每一班裡面人數越來越多以台北市來說我們收到的個案他就必須要跨越"},{"start":6253.58,"end":6277.174,"text":"學區以外的學校就讀,也就是說每天上課的交通的時間、身心負擔都增加很多。那台北市都如此了,何況是偏鄉地區的學校。但因為我目前沒有看到資料報告,所以希望教育部可以提供給我,就是關於我們對偏鄉地區的集中式資源班的這些學生,他跨區就讀的情形。"},{"start":6277.714,"end":6282.997,"text":"學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案：一、邀請教育部列席就:「偏遠地區教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案：一、"},{"start":6294.704,"end":6306.17,"text":"應該也要達到學生的平權所以我覺得區域區的均衡是很重要的所以我現在往後去考慮一下那我先拿到這個報告數字好 謝謝剛才委員提的這點我簡單回答 要提議這項說明好了如果經過專業的鑑定是屬於該進入到這種我們說專班 特教專班剛才我剛才講說這個一定要確立不是因為用一個限制這個如果有限制執行這方面我們應該跟他們溝通"},{"start":6321.358,"end":6340.186,"text":"以鑑定為準,那當然普特融合是一個國際的趨勢。對,我現在講的就是已經鑑定後要安置到其中最適合的。對,所以那個前提應該是不能說我不管你多少,我就是給你這個,這不合理。沒錯。好,這個我們再請縣市局,剛才委員傳到區域的部分,我請署裡頭整理再跟委員說明一下。好,好,謝謝。好,謝謝。我們接下來請林怡瑾抓委。"},{"start":6352.039,"end":6358.506,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會"},{"start":6359.481,"end":6383.943,"text":"部長好我想首先先請鄭署長就是說這次全大運有發生選手疑似這個食物中毒的事件有十位選手身體不舒服甚至有兩位一度留在急診室來觀察那我想食安的問題在這個節骨眼上更是特別的這個嚴重那我想如果選手因為食物中毒沒有辦法出賽"},{"start":6385.004,"end":6392.027,"text":"特別是參加這種那麼重要的這個全國性的大型的學生的賽事我想對學生來講影響會很大不管是未來積分或未來升學那我們不樂見這種事情我們就要引以為戒所以"},{"start":6400.151,"end":6406.574,"text":"我想今年在就是在4月3號的時候我質詢的時候也有跟您討論過那您那時候有跟我提到說我們台灣代表隊這次要去參加80年奧運的膳食的問題你說當初我們會跟當地的這個台商公司合作我們會提供最新鮮的當地的食材跟真空的調理包然後也會有膳食工也會有冷藏的設備等等那我們請農業部特別來協助"},{"start":6429.124,"end":6443.441,"text":"相關的食安的資訊那看起來問題我們都準備好了那可是現在就是說我想進一步詢問菜單中有沒有生菜沙拉報告委員我們在不管是亞運還是奧運絕對不容許生食"},{"start":6446.237,"end":6463.748,"text":"但是籌備處那邊的選手村的餐廳是有可能會有當然我們會教育選手自己要挑對的食物所以我想說是這樣因為這次全大運疑似中毒的事件就是因為生菜沙拉疑似啦"},{"start":6464.602,"end":6466.164,"text":"發展條例第八條文修正草案案 委員柯志恩等18人擬具"},{"start":6481.48,"end":6497.669,"text":"可是我們看2018的亞運南海的選手就是吃到味道怪怪的沙拉集體吃壞肚子的事件有這種事情發生所以您剛說我們就是避免生死這是好事我就要確認這一點那另外就說選手出國比賽難免會出去走走"},{"start":6500.811,"end":6503.692,"text":"實驗室內的職務,必須避免接觸不熟悉的食物,特別是法國飲食文化的生冷食物,例如生蠔。"},{"start":6522.856,"end":6538.324,"text":"通常選手蠻自愛的所以就不會有這樣的一個問題他們選手很自律這一點的話如果是有這樣的要求跟選手有自律那我們就不用太擔心不過就是提醒一下謝謝署長那署長請回"},{"start":6539.665,"end":6566.326,"text":"那部長我來跟你提一下就是說之前有網紅在網路上做直播業配的時候跟孩子一起說出歧視跟善笑資源班這個的話而且態度非常的輕浮那我想本席跟部長您我們跟在座的各位我們看到這樣的事件一定是相當的憤怒跟難過那我們那麼努力在消擬就是歧視那為什麼還有人輕易會在"},{"start":6568.067,"end":6589.748,"text":"直接在網路上去說出這樣的話那我想這樣的網紅其實他也並不是少數只是他沒有直接說出口而已好 那麼我覺得那怎麼樣去建立這種不要歧視的這種心態校園的教育就非常的重要所以我覺得是不是校園要透過宣導讓孩子去認識特殊兒"},{"start":6590.649,"end":6613.97,"text":"或者說老師、校長、家長本身也要以身作則那引導孩子學習愛跟關懷那減少歧視所以想要請教的是說教育部還能再多做些什麼或者來讓學生們跟家長跟老師不要再對一般的學生不同的孩子有異樣的眼光教育部對這種反歧視的法制化有什麼看法"},{"start":6614.13,"end":6617.691,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期"},{"start":6634.338,"end":6647.881,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會"},{"start":6658.524,"end":6667.206,"text":"學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。 〈一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九"},{"start":6679.81,"end":6682.372,"text":"教育部列席及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員"},{"start":6695.242,"end":6704.546,"text":"我們再來跟您探討剛剛萬美林委員也有跟您稍微提及的就是說我們去年修正了特殊教育法陸附帶決是要讓分散式的資源班跟巡迴的輔導班的師生比在五年內達到1比8可是我們看現在高級中等以下學校特殊教育班班級及專責單位設置與人員禁用辦法的修正草案裡面"},{"start":6722.534,"end":6732.416,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化"},{"start":6749.699,"end":6763.383,"text":"那現在的草案是把每位老師需要服務的幼兒人數降到15人。那看來當然是往好的方向走,可是也沒有達到當初所說的一比八。"},{"start":6765.524,"end":6774.749,"text":"本席剛所說除了幼兒園還有國小高中也沒有規劃1比8那本席詢問了這個現場巡撫班的這個特教師他們說就算調到1比1515上也很難做到為什麼根本是老師不夠"},{"start":6783.374,"end":6805.851,"text":"因為現行的培育學前特教教師的師培大學只有6間每間平均發證數大概130張但有拿到特教士的證照的老師也未必會做這個工作以這樣的數量不要說1比8、1比15都有困難所以請教教育部這次的修正草案師生比"},{"start":6806.892,"end":6828.638,"text":"第一,為什麼只有國中有達到1比8?再來就是說那其他階段的師生比調整到底要什麼樣的困難?還有就是說在師資的方面有什麼樣精進跟增加的方案?是,謝謝委員我跟委員報告因為當時我們在特教法去年修有一個附帶決議就是希望教育部來做這方面的規劃當然給了一個目標"},{"start":6830.898,"end":6854.022,"text":"當然這個內容我想委員當時參與都知道其實這個目標我們比較希望讓教育部更深入地去了解委員我以學前為例為什麼不是用國小、國中或是直接國中1比8的概念因為幼兒園孩子是安排在不是把他抽離出來而且他也不是在教他教保大綱裡面的內容"},{"start":6854.602,"end":6871.476,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會"},{"start":6872.95,"end":6875.594,"text":"國小、國中課程需求與一般性學檢不一樣。高中特教不是針對教學,而是特別需求。"},{"start":6890.814,"end":6897.256,"text":"教育部列席及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第1會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第1會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第1會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會"},{"start":6914.201,"end":6925.011,"text":"那這個基礎不是一勞到這裡為止啦因為我跟委員報告我對資源班的過去在形態上各個不同階段真的我是做了一個非常詳細的瞭解跟評估還是真的比較希望能夠達到這樣的一個實質效能那第二部分委員講那個特教的師培這個我同時也請師姿義教師要同步跟著走"},{"start":6936.301,"end":6948.809,"text":"所以當時為什麼說要用五年其實也一方面把這個資源班不管他哪一種型態真的對接好了以後那師培也要到同時以這樣的方式來所以要擴大這個師培的學校數現在也朝這個方向在走我討論的時候不是只有找國教署我是找私資教師一起要來對這個方面做個瞭解那我也跟我們報告這個其實有國教署在討論這個過程也多次的跟我們現場的這些相關的人員"},{"start":6963.838,"end":6973.167,"text":"有做了一些幫人學校來做深入的請教所以是用這樣的方式來形成我也覺得比較不好意思我一向務實不會說通通都1比8那我要跟委員報告通通都1比8你會發現師資培育是一件事再來一個就會覺得他明明是進到一個班那為什麼跟我把他抽出來我要教8個1比8的學生這個在不同階段我也認為那更是另外一個我認為不公平的地方"},{"start":6990.242,"end":6994.563,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第9會期教育及文化委員會第11屆第9會期教育及文化委員會第11屆第9會期教育及文化委員會第11屆第9會期教育及文化委員會第11屆第9會期"},{"start":7025.834,"end":7030.739,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育部列席就擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":7051.218,"end":7073.905,"text":"每期名是產學合作可是看起來我們懷疑有劣地的可能怎麼說呢因為他們其實自己是缺地的那他們如果想要在竹北高鐵站附近找到合用的土地他們可能就想到這件事情那這件事情目前之所以引起非常多社區跟大學教授的關注是因為整個過程沒有公開透明也沒有經過校園裡面的民主程序去做討論來我們看下一個"},{"start":7075.766,"end":7082.891,"text":"事實上呢,這不是交大第一次出現產學合作的爭議。在2021年交大的交印樓曾經就出現要被企業拿去抵債的新聞。當時立法院的法治局也對這樣的狀況做出警示,甚至在法治局的文章裡面提到這種假產學合作去取得大學、校地使用權利的做法很有可能會造成學校資產被侵吞。"},{"start":7101.243,"end":7126.933,"text":"下一張目前我們看到這個網路上的連署雖然我的同意片寫的是3000份可是到昨天晚上已經突破4000份了有相關教授甚至有超過200個為什麼大家這麼在意這件事情部長你認為呢整個學校對於人文精神跟空間的關係還有高等教育對於所謂產業需求想要造成學生跟產業端的合作的時候但卻必須犧牲主體性我想這次部長你也不認同不允許的"},{"start":7127.353,"end":7150.05,"text":"發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事項,是需要還是想要這件事情?這件事情到目前為止相信部長你應該也所知道。目前部長你的態度,或者是,請您回應,謝謝。是,謝謝委員,這個聽楊敏教大的這個議題,確實我也得到相關的資訊,媒體也有報導這個事情,那我也有請高教師要更深入的去"},{"start":7150.871,"end":7175.08,"text":"理解到目前為止確實他們有這樣的一個產學合作的計畫但是我也跟委員報告我也認同委員所提到的我們學校不管哪一級學校它的主體一定是要以提供教學學生的受教這應該是最優先那你如果有做相關的決定也必須要把這個同步去做考量那顯然在目前校內這個意見是還相當的分歧"},{"start":7179.141,"end":7186.229,"text":"教育部立法院第11屆第1會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第3會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第3會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期"},{"start":7199.784,"end":7212.333,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會"},{"start":7229.405,"end":7232.408,"text":"有無機會一周裡面提出相關報告?因為現在校長這邊也清楚地表達他會再進行校內的因為他等於說這個決定是不是要繼續往這個方式目前是未確定的但是我們會密切去注意我們也會跟你們保持溝通"},{"start":7246.843,"end":7265.32,"text":"那第二個我覺得是整個通案來看啦目前大學產學合作只要涉及土地建屋的事項教育部是不是應該規劃有關不得作為生產基地出租抵押變賣的標的相關指引我說的是指引而不要讓高等教育後續還要發生類似的狀況那教育部還要再去個案解決這個部分有沒有機會進行規劃"},{"start":7267.857,"end":7293.243,"text":"我們是不是來研究一下因為產學合作到目前已經推動一段時間了是 那我相信一定也有發生很多狀況部長你是知道的我想應該先收集啦是不是教育部要去訂出那好 如果沒問題要先收集相關聲音的意見我覺得先收集一下那有機會在三個月內完成相關報告跟甚至進行收集規劃啟動好不好我們就三個月高教師先去收集了解一下產學合作的過程有沒有一些我們需要去做提醒學校的"},{"start":7293.663,"end":7302.229,"text":"發展條例第18條文修正草案案。 〈一、二、三、四、五、六、七、八、八、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十、九、十"},{"start":7316.459,"end":7331.159,"text":"有這個正面的函文給予地方縣市政府這個相關的宣導可是我們要再一次提醒國教署在後續的相關宣導之外是不是也要協助更多地方的老師當他們要去爭取進修的時候不要被縣市政府"},{"start":7331.539,"end":7341.223,"text":"教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育"},{"start":7357.449,"end":7367.574,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":7377.159,"end":7390.518,"text":"發展條例第八條文修正草案案。 也就是說如果把這些事情都考慮進去然後我們再問另外一個問題目前我們看專任教師人數多於學生人數的學校數已經佔了27間把這些事情放進去看我想跟部長討論下一個我們發現"},{"start":7392.301,"end":7420.319,"text":"又是行政工作減量這件事情在很多相關調查裡面偏鄉的老師都在問為什麼行政工作感覺起來沒有減量那當然感覺這件事情是非常個人主觀經驗的事實上在教育部的偏遠地區發展條例第14條有規範主管機關要簡化行政工作程序可是到底為什麼現場老師還是覺得工作量很大剛剛已經很多委員說我就不再贅述我們來看除了行政工作過量這件事情第二個"},{"start":7420.959,"end":7439.953,"text":"我們發現大部分的偏鄉因為人力不足的關係常常必須要混零教學或是混零編班我想部長您是清楚的可是一旦面臨混零教學混零編班這件事情再加上很多偏遠地區的社區文化跟孩子的原生家庭的文化背景是不足的"},{"start":7440.333,"end":7444.515,"text":"導致於產生在學術科目上學習能力的低落我想部長一定非常清楚也就是說複雜的學校問題學習問題看起來他必須還要回到社區跟家庭去解決所以我們發現"},{"start":7463.362,"end":7468.985,"text":"很多第一線老師告訴我們其實有經驗的老師豐富經驗教學的老師其實可能更適合到偏鄉去協助這些孩子很多第一線校長是這樣告訴我們的那我們來往下看有沒有機會站在考慮學生人數越來越少偏鄉學校情況越來越嚴重的情況下還有我剛剛說的這些複雜的教學現場情況可不可以目前教育部有18個"},{"start":7487.416,"end":7506.206,"text":"區域資源中心相關的運行方針雖然你們有建議他們要針對行政資源共享行政工作減量必須要改善方案可是我們目前在整個業務報告在今天業務報告裡面也沒有看到這個部分我們可不可以積極的建議教育部如何協助區域資源中心進行行政工作減量的討論跟盤點"},{"start":7508.207,"end":7526.782,"text":"這個部分請教長先回應,謝謝。我想謝謝委員點出這個那在今天的報告我也特別提出來我也跟彭爽特做這個討論如果只是用一個名稱可能不容易有實際上的效益那我覺得有必要的我們要到每個學校去增至行政人力這個其實我覺得"},{"start":7528.723,"end":7532.087,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":7550.106,"end":7551.348,"text":"新的學年度7月30日之前會把這樣的規劃甚至必須要增置給區域中心補強的人力讓他們多做一點為其他學校服務我想這個比較有機會"},{"start":7565.967,"end":7582.815,"text":"教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。 《偏遠地區學校久任機制》這件事情其實現在已經有相關的辦法跟基礎我相信部長也很清楚可是要如何鼓勵教師久任並且積極招聘有多年教學經驗的老師願意投入偏鄉教育這件事情部長你覺得有沒有可能往這裡去規劃"},{"start":7584.32,"end":7588.003,"text":"那個9人本來就有一個機制另外有一個原來的配套只是參與的人數如果還能夠再擴大我們就是有點鼓勵就是委員講的有經驗辦學的校長或老師透過我們這個機制能夠鼓勵能夠到"},{"start":7601.172,"end":7617.847,"text":"可是我必須要說現場第一線的我們看見就是偏鄉可能有這個法規可以讓他們聘用這個九年教學經驗的老師可是我覺得現場的福利可能讓很多老師覺得是不夠的所以我想這件事情還有很多的配套需要教育部積極的規劃是不是就請教育部再跟我們積極討論這件事情三個月內跟我們相關的規劃跟討論報告謝謝好OK好謝謝委員"},{"start":7625.573,"end":7626.594,"text":"教育部長葉元芝委員教育部長"},{"start":7650.254,"end":7671.275,"text":"葉委員好不然好不然我們今天在這邊討論偏鄉教育都是希望偏鄉教育好嘛是那我現在要指出一個我覺得教育部為德不足的地方因為我們這個條例107年通過之後那時候就是由教育部來核定各縣市政府的偏遠學校的名額對吧"},{"start":7672.416,"end":7698.736,"text":"應該說它有一個認定標準,認定標準之後有地方政府去提供名單,符合這個標準的。符合這個標準,但是有一個上限嘛,對吧?不,因為它就照指標啊。有一個上限嘛,我現在真的問你回答就好了啦,不用害怕啦。我不會對你很兇啦,放心啦。你現在偏遠地區是分三類嘛,特偏、偏遠地區跟非三非四嘛。還有極偏,非三非四不是屬於偏遠學校。"},{"start":7699.996,"end":7725.681,"text":"特偏跟偏遠有沒有上限?名額上限有沒有?只要它符合評估標準,我們不是用上限,是有沒有達到這個標準。不對,我了解就不是。縣市政府經常反映這個議題給你們,就是很明白地告訴說這個有一個總額上限,因為你們每三年核定它的名額,所以要求縣市政府在這個名額底下自行去分配到底哪一些學校要特偏哪些學校要偏鄉。"},{"start":7727.021,"end":7754.917,"text":"這次我了解的狀況啊部長你是真的你確定沒有名額上限嗎如果沒有名額上限的話我要回去跟縣市政府宣布這個好消息啊說教育部沒有沒有名額上限只要符合標準通通都可以可以得到相關的補助是這樣齁叫部長你要確定欸確定齁委員我再確定一下你再確定欸部長你不能這樣代表老兵請太久這樣有一個評估標準海瑟上線怪怪的呢有沒有總額管制嘛"},{"start":7755.922,"end":7780.903,"text":"有無?如果你不知道你問一下署長給你機會因為我也不想為難你啦署長有沒有上線?我請署長說明一下謝謝委員在這個學友專討論中有一個數額那數額也有彈性所以什麼彈性?有沒有數額上線?有沒有?我今天我新北市我可以報到偏遠學校100間可不可以?他不行不行嘛就是有上線好可以謝謝我只要問這個問題就好所以部長其實是有上線的"},{"start":7781.703,"end":7804.069,"text":"有上限,沒想到你在快要離任了還是經由我的嘴巴才知道偏遠學校有上限那我現在想要點出一個問題實際上有上限造成什麼狀況就是在地方政府認定的時候他們明明就覺得說這個學校就是很偏鄉啊可是因為有走的上限所以他就沒有辦法把他納入到偏遠學校得到妥善的照顧"},{"start":7805.129,"end":7826.406,"text":"而且你們教育部每一次都會提供一些所謂的係數因為你們怎麼認定你們會根據幾個指標包括交通狀況、文化狀況、生活機能、數位環境、社會經濟條件等有一個模組然後算出係數提供給地方政府告訴他們說哪一些是比較是屬於偏鄉哪一些比較不偏鄉"},{"start":7827.287,"end":7850.956,"text":"但是問題是這些係數都讓大家非常質疑它並不是一個公開透明的模型所以導致於說在我們地方明明感覺很多是偏鄉的學校可是實際上它就不符合教育部的認定這是非常奇怪的所以我在這邊就要求教育部你要公開你到底這係數是怎麼算出來的給地方政府來參考否則這個就是黑箱作業第二件事情"},{"start":7852.227,"end":7869.1,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":7875.37,"end":7881.877,"text":"施行迄今之成效及檢討：一、邀請教育部列席就:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及公開報告：一、邀請教育部列席就:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案件事宜及公開報告：一、"},{"start":7897.994,"end":7920.541,"text":"你是主管機關嘛因為現在的狀況就不公開嘛所以拿到這個係數都覺得沒有沒有你沒有給你把你有把數據給人家可是沒有告訴人家說這數字是怎麼來的所以大家就覺得很奇怪怎麼可能整個淡水數位環境會一模一樣它一定有比較人口集中區跟比較偏鄉區嘛所以這裡面有很多問題啦我現在其實只是代表"},{"start":7922.125,"end":7940.168,"text":"教育部立法院第11屆第1會期教育部立法院第11屆第2會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院"},{"start":7950.77,"end":7967.817,"text":"這個國教署也不要坐在冷氣房裡面然後就完全不去地方走一走不瞭解實際上遇到的狀況這個部分我希望能夠解除這個總的管制 不然可以嗎委員我覺得應該討論的是那個評估的指標能不能拿一些再更說還不足的再客觀化"},{"start":7969.578,"end":7989.859,"text":"因為你已經訂了一個總額在那邊了,所以即便是指標做到大家都符合那個偏遠的條件,它還是會被總額卡住,就是這樣。委員,我跟你講,剛才署長也特別提到了。不然你就承諾兩件事嘛,第一個不要有總額嘛。不是,我覺得哪一項才務實可行。就是說,如果這個評估下來是一個基礎啦。"},{"start":7990.72,"end":7992.801,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":8021.18,"end":8048.669,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育部列席就要從另外一家把它踢掉啦因為你就是有總額上限嘛那你對縣市的政府而言每一間學校手心手背都是肉嘛你要他踢掉哪一間讓這間進來會很難抉擇而且他們選擇的條件又是根據你提供的係數嘛所以關鍵在這裡是環環相扣的嘛所以我是希望你第一個你先把名額變成有彈性第二件事情就是把這個計算的係數公開透明讓大家參考這個每一間學校都不會有意見"},{"start":8049.87,"end":8059.518,"text":"理論與實務落差公開透明這個部分一定做到明兒也取消啦不是你又有明兒上線我們今天幹嘛在這邊討一條理就是希望所有的學校得到最好的照顧不是嗎我跟你講報告一個實務啦學校知道這個有資源所以呢現在三分之一的學校列為偏鄉學校如果沒有一些客觀的指標我相信一下子就變成兩千所學校不會變兩千所啦"},{"start":8076.732,"end":8088.923,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":8099.113,"end":8113.205,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":8115.487,"end":8130.351,"text":"教育部列席及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第1會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第1會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會"},{"start":8142.076,"end":8169.579,"text":"那我當然知道教育部的你們的規範是認為說這些代理教師他就好像行政院約聘人員約聘人員一樣勞動節是沒有放假但他們是用勞保所以我然後現在就導致於各縣市政府還有各學校目中一視每一個人做法都不一樣我不知道說教育部能不能就是直接針對代理教師訂定一個規範就直接把他們認定就是應該符合勞基法勞動節就應該放假去保障他們的權益不知道這做得到嗎"},{"start":8170.719,"end":8196.397,"text":"委員要跟我們報告這個議題討論了很久啦所以大家都關心你就不願意收口嗎不是不是不是他直接適用勞基法可以 老師的這方面可能說他就有一套工具規範但如果從學生的受教權也會衍生很多的問題啦沒有給他一個加班費有什麼受教權的問題我們有代理老師的相關照顧福利拆教本來就訂了一個辦法只是他不是直接適用勞基法"},{"start":8197.118,"end":8202.387,"text":"對啦,我現在就證明比如說勞動節的部分你就給他補假一天或者是給他一個加班費這有什麼差?"},{"start":8204.022,"end":8231.055,"text":"大理教師這麼辛苦然後再來就是這個年資的計算部分我上次有問過您嘛你那時候說大家很努力的幫大理教師爭取權益我都非常肯定但我覺得年資不管他在哪個縣是年資應該都把合併記錄因為行政院底下約聘人員就是這樣做的你如果是在行政院下面做約聘人員他以前過去在別的地方年資都是合併計算的所以如果按照這樣的標準大理教師的年資也應該都要合併計算"},{"start":8236.313,"end":8247.963,"text":"教育部針對教師,教師當然就是廣泛的教師在五一勞動節,因為當時行政院、內政部有遵循各部會的意見教育部也是表達這個可以一致的概念"},{"start":8248.884,"end":8276.283,"text":"一致概念就是五一如果因為涉及到家長全國可以放假老師的這部分也OK所以我應該提的那個問題因為今年實在是時程有點趕跨部會討論所以如果在未來因為行政院表達這種想法只是時程來不及因為他有相關法規要修所以在明年如果五一勞動節以目前的趨勢就沒有所謂代理老師那天放不放假的問題那是全國所有的學校老師會一致"},{"start":8277.103,"end":8284.528,"text":"免資 問題還在討論那個一定要跟縣市一起討論了你了解我剛才講那個意思嗎?但今年是來不及了OK 謝謝好 謝謝兩位接下來我們請郭鈺晴委員等郭委員質詢完畢之後我們就如剛剛所宣布的休息五分鐘 謝謝"},{"start":8305.674,"end":8309.402,"text":"教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育"},{"start":8313.381,"end":8340.872,"text":"諮詢了好幾次終於碰到部長了剛剛其實也有很多人都提到這個師生比的一個問題當然我們知道其實在這個特殊教育班級以及整個所有人員禁用的辦法其實在4月15號有一個新的一個預告那也特別提到了在分散式的資源班跟這個巡迴的這個輔導班的部分這個師生比的比例那在幼兒園的部分其實是1比15"},{"start":8342.267,"end":8356.338,"text":"教育及文化委員會第10次全期教育及文化委員會第10次全期教育及文化委員會第10次全期教育及文化委員會第10次全期教育及文化委員會第10次全期教育及文化委員會第10次全期教育及文化委員會第10次全期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":8361.902,"end":8383.45,"text":"我跟委員報告,早上因為有幾位委員關心,我再跟委員補充說明一下,因為有關目前資源班的方式,在學前幼兒園、國小、國中還有高中,其實它雖然都叫資源班,但是它的參與的方式不一樣,那學前的這部分,它其實是特教的老師去進班,"},{"start":8385.431,"end":8391.015,"text":"協助這班有特教生模式與國小、國中抽離出來一定要對應課程來做教學的方式而學前的那部分上課還是這位老師還是原來幼兒園的老師在進行依照教保大綱他在教這位支援班的老師是協助裡面的幼生可能在生活照顧這些做法"},{"start":8410.99,"end":8422.816,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":8436.842,"end":8462.477,"text":"施生比的部分是不是應該更合理而且是更健全的應該是往下降我們回到這個高中的部分你看到高中的部分突然又變成1比15去了那其實我們都知道在高中生的時候他們可能碰到所謂的情緒的障礙這樣子的一個狀況跟衝突跟在學校其實這樣子的問題可能會更多他們需要更多的一個協助為什麼到這個地方他的施生比反而變這麼高呢"},{"start":8464.278,"end":8478.528,"text":"高中的部分他也不是上課啦他不是上在他的課程是他以他特殊生的需求也就是特需的部分去協助學生還是在原來的普通班裡面那特教的老師是去做這方面的協助"},{"start":8478.868,"end":8482.97,"text":"目前我們特教的老師做這方面的協助師生比還是一樣低嗎?因為兩個概念不太一樣為什麼說像學前我們公幼就把他拉到1比12那是這個老師帶這個完整的一個班那這個概念跟特教的老師進到我講的是學前進到這個班去幫助特殊教育的這孩子的狀況所以他不是用成班的概念"},{"start":8505.98,"end":8520.846,"text":"因為今天時間的關係其實我們快速進入下一題其實大家剛剛捷運部長也特別回答了我們這個林議警委員的這個部分就是說要擴大失陪的方向前進這是剛剛林有特別講的在討論這個案子是必要的因為目前我們在擴增以後這個所增加的人數是目前所不足的所以我們用五年的時間這個也請施政教師同步一定要 不然這跟不上來"},{"start":8532.731,"end":8535.776,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":8547.893,"end":8575.063,"text":"做這樣子的一個教學的一個方式來做開課那目前為止我們所知道的只有國立台南大學有國小的師資的類科只有這麼一班而且他開課的時間選在所謂的寒暑假那大家都知道其實我相信部長應該也知道尤其是在暑假的時候其實六月中之後有很多所謂的這個師資的訓練沒有所謂沒有師資訓練以及沒有教師證的人其實都在等三招"},{"start":8575.823,"end":8580.07,"text":"他不見得會去上實體的課程這個部分到底是我們開課的時間有問題地點有問題還是授課的內容有問題導致最後其實我們的支配的進度是這麼的落後"},{"start":8588.338,"end":8604.59,"text":"我跟委員報告因為就是說代理老師這個其實是我們認為偏鄉他真的沒有辦法有那麼多專任老師的缺額的輔助做法那麼在這比如最近這111、112我們強烈的要求縣市不能一直保留大量的缺額所以總共兩個學年度開出國中小將近一萬九千多位的教師的缺額"},{"start":8614.798,"end":8622.806,"text":"教育部列席及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第3會期教育部列席及文化委員會第4會期教育部列席及文化委員會第6會期教育部列席及文化委員會第7會期教育部列席及文化委員會第8會期教育部列席及文化委員會第9會期教育部列席及文化委員會第10會期教育部列席及文化委員會第11會期教育部列席及文化委員會第12會期教育部列席及文化委員會第13會期教育部列席及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":8637,"end":8647.066,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":8660.254,"end":8685.003,"text":"這個部分是最高這個是怎麼樣的一個條件部長您知道嗎這個是要距離他的服務地點要距離公車站要35公里以上35公里是什麼概念從這邊到林口公車站喔光公車站喔他才有6180元的一個加級看一下正式老師的部分他光是6年的固定的加級的部分到最後只多了3396元"},{"start":8686.824,"end":8704.693,"text":"好,這是老師。代理老師的部分他的差額就是從頭到尾沒有變。他的差額依舊在這個地方。再來,帶課老師那就更辛苦了。帶課老師是完全沒有偏遠的加級的部分。那這個部分你要怎麼樣吸引人家真的進入到偏鄉去服務呢?"},{"start":8705.92,"end":8717.166,"text":"我剛才有跟委員報告為什麼我們怎麼樣都是會以專任教師也就是完全符合這個是對偏鄉孩子的授教權益應該是一個最主要的人力上的目標不管這一次的條例這個目標要什麼時候才能達到"},{"start":8721.748,"end":8746.106,"text":"這幾年我剛才為什麼說111跟112我們要請縣市釋出缺額以前他們保留到有時候一個學校偏遠學校保留20%到30%的缺額那不是開玩笑那是他不願意開缺出來聘專任老師那這兩年的努力已經補充這樣這個才是正辦啦那對於代理老師我們很感謝但是代理老師我要跟委員報告"},{"start":8748.148,"end":8750.269,"text":"特教老師以目前我們要往生師比的這個部分未來的五年要增加2500位特教老師的缺額五年就是按照剛才跟委員報告的那個比例啦那個師生比"},{"start":8766.98,"end":8770.264,"text":"那個就是必要的配置但是我要跟各位報告是一般的缺額目前我們也在掌握了因為這幾年大量都是有進任到專任的老師目前的缺額已經只剩1000多位你如果說大量的培養老師取證"},{"start":8784.379,"end":8785.54,"text":"教育部必須重整考慮施肢供需。"},{"start":8800.792,"end":8828.175,"text":"委員如果說有一些要35公里耶你想想看35公里是從這邊到支援老師的這方面的一些機率措施我們會再滾動的來修正而且這個誘因幾乎是看得到我吃不到耶看得到我拿不到耶6180元其實這個加緊是要公車站牌離我服務的地方要35公里從這裡到林口要有公車站牌是完全沒有的我才能夠拿到最高的加緊耶"},{"start":8828.695,"end":8829.335,"text":"教育部立法院第11屆第1會期教育部立法院第12屆第13屆"},{"start":8846.186,"end":8848.427,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期"},{"start":8861.591,"end":8876.12,"text":"這次是我質詢的第六次,針對兒福聯盟我們的主管機關,兒福聯盟主管機關教育部在這個地方,今天部長好不容易來了之前我質詢了好幾次是次長來,次長也覺得他們完全沒有"},{"start":8876.96,"end":8899.452,"text":"自我檢討的一個決心。但是到目前為止上次跟我告訴本席4月19號他們會召開會議包含專家跟學者來召開會議來看凱凱案這個部分兒福聯盟有沒有失職的地方到目前為止今天是幾月了五月了這個案子要拖多久對兒福聯盟的懲處的部分我們要拖多久"},{"start":8900.888,"end":8903.77,"text":"教育部是民意上的主管機關但他所從事的服務的工作都不是原來教育部不是都不是是百分之六七十不是是輸出養的業務"},{"start":8924.742,"end":8935.387,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會"},{"start":8948.212,"end":8968.113,"text":"一個凱凱案,死了一個孩子,被虐死的一個孩子有沒有違反他的捐助章程?有沒有?教育部只要告訴我這個問題的話,有嗎?我跟你們報告,因為以文教基金會,你就是會依照相關他所提的事物去做監督他的運作跟他的設立的目的其實是完全不符的他當然有重大缺失啦"},{"start":8968.433,"end":8992.258,"text":"現在只是我要跟委員報告的是說他在4月我們已經終止了他收出養的業務沒有錯對不對但是他在4月20號他的另外一個新開的粉專居然還在提收出養服務這個部分麻煩跨部會跟衛福部好好的來檢討這個兒福聯盟可以嗎OK OK這一定是這樣目前是這樣子處理現在最主要希望處理到哪裡了我要質詢第幾次不是 我要講的是"},{"start":8993.838,"end":9009.366,"text":"這個業務他所做的服務項目不應該以文教籍案應該用但你是他的主管機關我們必須要跨部會來做是喔我是要跟委員說因為這個部會一定要釐清否則你管他的叫做文教基金會的管理辦法我剛剛講的是財團法人法是教育部的責任喔是我們教育部要來管喔當然當然不是只有說初仰喔好嗎可以嗎是好謝謝好謝謝謝謝主席"},{"start":9022.128,"end":9025.213,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期"},{"start":9329.394,"end":9334.542,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會"},{"start":9346.671,"end":9348.172,"text":"部長早安部長前些日子剛結束的統策被質疑說英語類的專業科目二第一大題的選擇題的文章是抄襲這個本席也去查找這個題目的這個比對"},{"start":9362.418,"end":9364.701,"text":"發現真的通篇文章幾乎都跟網站上的文章內容是一樣的在題目的前半部如通篇上面的在底線標註的部分都是在抄襲美國地質調查局網頁上關於冰河的介紹"},{"start":9380,"end":9392.667,"text":"那可以看到說連選擇題填空的答案都一樣也就是我們這個框起來的部分都跟該篇文章是一模一樣文章是直接放上去沒有調整連字型的結構都沒有調整那在題目的後半部畫底線的部分是在一本介紹冰河時期的專書上面的內容"},{"start":9402.752,"end":9424.471,"text":"德國的出版社網頁上的公開文章就引用這本書的內容那部長也可以看到紅色框的這個部分答案選項也都是跟專書上面的內容是一樣的是一模一樣也就是說這一整個的大題幾乎都是抄襲既有的內容只是抽換了一些單字跟刪除一些字句等一下我再來請教部長您覺得這樣的命題方式是不是適合"},{"start":9428.534,"end":9444.905,"text":"這個事件在4月29號被教授團體公開,但是時至今日,基專校園入學測試中心都沒有就本次的事件來公開說明。那這邊想請教說,我們教育部現在你們所掌握的狀況是怎麼樣?那部長您的看法呢?"},{"start":9445.305,"end":9472.59,"text":"是,我跟委員報告確實在這次的統測有外語,就是英語這個課程這個試題裡面有提出這樣的疑義出來那統測中心其實他介紹這個疑義他本來就跟委員報告命題、疑義的處理其實他有一套的標準的SOP那測驗中心執行長這邊也對外說明他對這個人家反映的這個疑義後續他就是會召開"},{"start":9473.49,"end":9475.271,"text":"施行迄今之成效及檢討：一、邀請教育部列席就〈偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案〉項目〉"},{"start":9497.259,"end":9501.281,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育部列席就擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第8條條文修正草案案件及文化委員會第11屆第8條條文修正草案件及文化委員會第8條條文修正草案件及文化委員會第8條條文修正草案件及文化委員會第8條條文修正草案件及文化委員會第8條條文修正草案件及文化委員會第8條條文修正草案件及文化委員會第8條條文修正草案件及文化委員會"},{"start":9521.989,"end":9526.833,"text":"教育部今年總共補助兩億零四十萬給基專校院招生策進總會以及入學測驗中心及招生委員會。那麼有多少的預算是用在MINT的部分?我們是請了幾位專家學者及教師們來審題。因為這些MINT的流程及細節其實在測驗中心的網站上面是沒有公開的。"},{"start":9551.59,"end":9562.299,"text":"但現在是你只要用這個題目內容在網路上搜尋很輕易的可以找到原始文章那所以呢在命題的過程裡面命題委員到底有沒有檢查這個機制呢這個審題的機制裡面這個檢查的這個項目有沒有確實或者說甚至是不是檢查的問題是不是他們認為這樣的命題沒有不妥"},{"start":9574.594,"end":9577.536,"text":"部長您的看法?剛才委員提到為什麼要大這個經費來支援統策跟我們大考不太一樣統策總共有47科因為我們各類都不同的啦那至於從命題、審題等等他的機制還是在那這個議題啦因為我想委員他不是說統策中心就直接到這裡直接說他有沒有什麼問題因為這是一個專業的事情"},{"start":9598.112,"end":9600.415,"text":"這個題目 這個議題其實也是一次很好的經驗給統策中心因為原始的命題老師最清楚你這個取材部長 本席對這個經費的補助我沒有疑議我覺得說我也尊重所有的專業"},{"start":9615.256,"end":9644.375,"text":"但是希望說就本次的事件我們應該要嚴格的來檢討並且我也希望說我們要公開這個計專校院入學測試中心這個審題SOP那檢視檢討現行的SOP如果有哪裡是有遺漏哪裡有不足的我們的審題必須要更嚴謹那還有如果有抄襲的情勢有這些重大的瑕疵的這樣命題的這個瑕疵的話一定的年限之內我們請不要再找同樣的人來命題"},{"start":9645.236,"end":9647.218,"text":"桐測提到的命題、審題是最基本的,取材後沒有進一步去陳述,其實審題也不容易看出"},{"start":9666.914,"end":9668.195,"text":"教育部在三個月內提相關檢討報告給教育委員會每位委員。"},{"start":9696.934,"end":9716.569,"text":"那這個本席也已經強調很多次這些考試對學生來講都非常的重要相信那個部長您也都理解高中三年、高十三年他們投入的心血他們所做的學習、時間的投入這個是決定這些孩子們未來發展的重要的這個門票所以我覺得教育部不應該再放任大考中心及測驗中心這樣鬆散下去這個部分請你們用嚴謹的態度來檢討這次的事件那好"},{"start":9722.894,"end":9743.371,"text":"接下來是要來關心偏遠地區教育的問題偏遠地區學校代理教師的比例一直很高這是偏遠地區教育的難題不管是國中還是國小在110年度到112年度的代理教師的比例大概都是在25%也就是說"},{"start":9743.971,"end":9751.118,"text":"偏遠地區的學校每四位老師之中就有一位是代理教師然而我們根據教育部的統計全台灣有超過21萬的人有教師證有9萬多人目前沒有職缺但是偏遠地區的學校能就難以招到老師多是以代理教師來補這個缺額"},{"start":9765.672,"end":9793.735,"text":"每到學期要結束的時候要放寒假放暑假之前多年前有一部電影是《老師你會不會回來》這句話都是學生想要問老師都是他們的疑問都是他們的擔憂那教師們也指出偏遠地區不容易遭到老師的這個原因是因為誘因不高也沒有相對的鼓勵的機制所以我們教育部為了協助偏遠地區學校聘請老師我們有推動一個專聘教師的制度"},{"start":9794.195,"end":9812.03,"text":"但是這個制度推行之後只有兩個縣市曾經辦理過專聘教師的招募而且總共只有六名教師報到之後就沒有再辦理過了那彭署長其實你也提到過代理教師現在已經可以領全年的薪水所以專聘教師相對來講只比代理教師多了考級獎金可能這個誘因不是很大"},{"start":9817.054,"end":9830.386,"text":"那本席這邊有問過教育部你們是不是有繼續辦理這個專聘教師制度的這個看法你們是給的是肯定說你們想繼續辦但是本席是很質疑說如果你們要繼續辦推動的話如果沒有調整目前專聘教師的這個鼓勵機制你們覺得可以怎麼繼續辦下去"},{"start":9838.195,"end":9863.08,"text":"謝謝委員 我跟委員報告一個這幾年數據的變化啦因為原來縣市包含學校這個教師缺額保留過高像偏遠那個是三成多甚至更高的那這幾年像去年跟今年總共國中小開出9500多個正式教師的缺那這當中有很多我們要求縣市要補充到這個偏遠地區去就是缺你要開到"},{"start":9863.84,"end":9864.4,"text":"偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9885.934,"end":9889.836,"text":"大量減少保留缺額過多而只是開出代理缺的,這是這幾年我們要求應該正本清嚴才對,所以我跟委員報告剛才談到的這個數據的變化是這樣。"},{"start":9904.605,"end":9911.789,"text":"但是部長當然缺額的部分我們如果去補足這個部分是一個部分但是老師願意繼續留下來這個才是一個挑戰你看出了缺額之後他在這邊他是正式教師但是他是一年兩年三年他就想要走他不想再繼續留在這個偏鄉的學校來教學"},{"start":9924.815,"end":9925.917,"text":"教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":9941.118,"end":9945,"text":"教育部長有什麼規劃?初步條例發行後,謝謝我們大院的支持即使從老師的流動率是有往下調國小從2點多已經到1.2國中1.9到也是1.2明年會支領9任獎金就是服務滿8年的大概我們初步估計有8500位當然這個我想是一個基礎"},{"start":9967.651,"end":9975.415,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會"},{"start":9992.685,"end":10000.808,"text":"那有什麼是我們以教育部的立場我們以在地的資源或是我們教育的資源可以來協助他們解決讓他們有留下來教書的意願這個部分也希望說如果國立機制不足的話我們推動這樣子的只是一個空談但是它真正能夠落實的話希望教師的意見你們需要採納"},{"start":10013.814,"end":10014.835,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12屆第13屆第14屆"},{"start":10026.535,"end":10050.682,"text":"謝謝不過部長我還是要接續那個我剛剛只做一個小小的補充就我們的資料顯示像說嘉義縣要招考20名專聘教師到最後5名5人報到而且隔年就陸續離開還有新北你真的是開放這個專聘教師但是這個落榜者來來來去選田但對不起只有一位報到表示這個真的還是有非常大的這個空間可以來努力了好謝謝來我們現在接下來請羅廷偉委員"},{"start":10057.91,"end":10081.183,"text":"謝謝主席,主席幫我邀請部長,謝謝。好,部長謝謝。好,非常感謝昭偉今天安排這個偏遠地區的學校教育發展條例。我想不只是高雄還有台中還有各縣市其實都有偏鄉的一些問題。那我想先請問一下今天很高興能夠再次看到部長。那部長請問一下那個新船二手書店你有聽過嗎?"},{"start":10082.628,"end":10098.153,"text":"新水的新 傳遞的傳 新船二手薯片我沒那麼瞭解 請委員指教沒關係沒關係 就是前台北世貿二館的館長黃金山擁有破百萬的年薪 卻在2014年提早退休選擇回到了故鄉"},{"start":10099.113,"end":10124.34,"text":"嘉義的民雄花光了所有的積蓄開了這一間新船二手書店最主要的一個目的就是故鄉沒有書店但其實呢他還有一個最重要的一個目的就是協助偏鄉弱勢學童的一個客服目前新船的已經有四個分部那今天早上的中正大學的胡維平老師投書媒體偏鄉弱勢客服永續的路崎嶇這邊你有看過嗎"},{"start":10128.139,"end":10130.961,"text":"中正大學突然片面決定下學期大幅縮減與新船合作,課程與服務時數暫且關閉所有溝通管道。"},{"start":10150.145,"end":10165.58,"text":"教育部立法院第11屆第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第2會期"},{"start":10165.8,"end":10184.646,"text":"整個嘉義縣所有的新船分部無法運作200名弱勢孩童會沒有人做客服請問針對這200名的這個弱勢學童有什麼備案如果現在你不知道我提出來了那你有沒有想過如果面對我說的沒有任何的一個偏差"},{"start":10185.946,"end":10200.231,"text":"因為這畢竟是我們自己的國立大學那我有請署長可能會同高教師瞭解一下因為這個方案可能應該是學校原來可能主動的跟剛才講的新傳的這個合作"},{"start":10200.811,"end":10210.038,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育部列席就擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件 發生了什麼事?是不是有資源不足?還是合作上有問題?理念有問題?」委員柯志恩等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件 發生了什麼事?是不是有資源不足?還是合作上有問題?理念有問題?」委員柯志恩等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18會期教育部列席就擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18會期教育部列席就擬具:「偏遠地區學校教�"},{"start":10224.709,"end":10240.135,"text":"這就是我們的政策之一我們樂見合作當然有一些理念可能不同還是資源不足我們講清楚說明白但是我們更重視的是這200多名的孩童有沒有備案去做客服我們先了解一下學校到底發生了什麼事如果能夠延續那對學校對學生都好啦我們先了解一下因為我對這個狀況還沒有掌握"},{"start":10246.718,"end":10248.98,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":10261.969,"end":10290.451,"text":"放學後沒有人做一個輔導那缺乏成就感跟自信心不但無法靠著教育在做翻轉的一個人生我想這個部分我們教育部才會有這個夜光天使點燈計劃這個我又要帶到我們的夜光天使點燈計劃但是弱勢族群不只是在偏遠地區偏鄉在都會中呢我想我們召委也很關心高雄啊或者是我們台中都會有所謂的弱勢族群也不是少數窩居在整個都市城市的一個角落而被忽略到"},{"start":10290.931,"end":10302.725,"text":"那我之前跟你特別拜託吼那也非常感謝有做相繼的一個追蹤但是我還是要問一下夜光天使點燈專案計畫台中市目前延伸到寒暑假國中由台中市辦目前規劃進度"},{"start":10303.991,"end":10326.929,"text":"我請蘇蘭跟你報告,蘇蘭跟我講,謝謝委員,因為已經有幾個區,已經有一些目標的國中我們也實際做媒合啦,一直在關心這件事情,但是媒合的結果到底怎麼樣,上線日、具體時間。好,謝謝委員。委員從3月份跟我們提點之後呢,3月份、4月份,最近都還有一次跟委員辦公室聯繫,中西東南區總共有4所學校,"},{"start":10327.729,"end":10334.514,"text":"三所國中 以及一個國小加起來四個學校已經有這個事辦的意願目前就是照委員講的從寒暫還沒到暑假來開始所以我們預期在113學年就8月份給學校一個規劃的時間地方政府會報上來"},{"start":10348.505,"end":10359.959,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員"},{"start":10364.263,"end":10380.332,"text":"中區沒有國中西區都是以升學為導向沒有需求沒關係我們尊重這兩區沒有提出需求因為我們昭緯也很關心高雄也跟我特別交代是不是高雄這部分的事辦計畫也可以跟昭緯做一個接洽我們在高雄也要特別關注我們課後輔導的一個問題"},{"start":10385.394,"end":10397.78,"text":"這個可以嗎?應該是沒有問題,我們先把台中這四項做了一個完整的處理。部長您要離去了,但是您的名會留在這裡,歷史會記錄你這一刻,再給我們答應一下可以嗎?謝謝館長,沒有啦,這個我覺得,我一向很務實啦,這個我覺得有必要,但是怎麼推才會順利,所以您當時提我跟署長這邊,我們就說就積極的進行,如果說趙薇這邊對我們高雄等等也有這樣,"},{"start":10413.567,"end":10414.307,"text":"發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10429.252,"end":10454.402,"text":"那偏遠學校大致可分為這個我要跟你了解一下偏遠地區的教育發展條例偏遠學校大致可分為偏遠、特偏、極偏以及非三非四的學校依教育部最新的統計依偏遠學校來說有832所特偏學校有197所極偏學校130所而偏遠地區學校教育發展條例當初預期要解決的是"},{"start":10455.422,"end":10472.573,"text":"解決環境交通不利、B解決失智不穩、C解決文化刺激不足、D解決學生學習不足、E解決經費不足。上路了6年半,請問這些到底改善了什麼?另外,偏遠究竟還缺什麼?"},{"start":10473.433,"end":10489.803,"text":"部長當初這個立法偏鄉的條例最主要的目的就是要解決老師的問題政府挹注能夠加津貼提升偏鄉教師福利並在正式的部分能夠讓偏鄉老師留下來但是不用去適應這個年年換新老師請問專聘教師目前辦理的狀況為何"},{"start":10495.11,"end":10514.384,"text":"我跟委員報告專聘教師是當時考慮到偏鄉真的有時候招聘老師要招好多次所以也把它建立起這個制度來目前剛才因為委員有關心我有報告過這三年我們強力的要求縣市不可以保留過多的員額"},{"start":10515.245,"end":10520.049,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員會第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員會第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員會第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員會第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員會第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員會第11屆第12會期"},{"start":10538.786,"end":10552.294,"text":"縣市在增聘的時候這個就變成是主軸有具有教師證符合教師資格也一定會以正式專任老師職缺為優先所以確實在專聘老師這幾年剛才召委指教清醒並不理想"},{"start":10552.864,"end":10576.341,"text":"對 所以我要跟你講專聘這兩學年為零啦111跟112但是正式教師全國9500個耶當然啦 但是這是你發起的一個計畫我還是要跟你講檢討這個計畫委員 我說他是一個輔助但不是一個主軸啦主軸一定是正式職缺聘專任教師來擔任我們這些偏鄉地區孩子的老師 這才是正犯"},{"start":10576.761,"end":10601.435,"text":"好 那當然我還是要另外再討論針對這些偏遠的學校政府的補助偏遠地區國中小教學設備及設施經費每三年最高核定200萬部長三年200萬平均一年是70萬這三年200萬對偏鄉學校有什麼改善各校花在這些設備有什麼效果嗎我要坦白的講這一年70萬連修廁所都不夠是不是應該要提高比如兩年200萬"},{"start":10602.756,"end":10627.651,"text":"市長,那個部分是額外不在我們專案裡面。我有跟委員講,報告,像我們用63億去改善偏鄉的午餐的問題,那是63億,那不是這三年兩百萬。像我們一生一平板,那個錢也不是用這個錢。那改善廁所也不是用這個錢。當然,當然,我是舉例。對啦,那個法院老師給他說,都沒有辦法的,但是你學校最需要的,你用這個錢。"},{"start":10628.692,"end":10649.274,"text":"委員你了解那個意思嗎?大錢還是我們用專案去幫忙?就是專案去做的這筆錢我知道,廁所的錢是有補助的錢嗎?那個一千多所學校用了63億但我就是還是要再跟你多要一點,作為民意代表我們看到就希望說能夠提高那也希望您多留下一些禮物,讓我們這些偏遠地區的能夠有更多的資源,好嗎?"},{"start":10652.765,"end":10657.769,"text":"施行迄今之成效及檢討。」進行專題報告：一、邀請教育部列席就 «偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案》案。"},{"start":10675.314,"end":10704.534,"text":"委員好部長好那就是因為上次已經有討論過有關於這個少子化的問題我們應該要提供給小學不管是大學包含是小學可能會有這個少子化的問題我們必須要做些因應嘛那其實在117年我們制定這個偏鄉教育條例的時候呢裡面有提到一個很重要關鍵就是穩定的師資所以讓學生們不要再問老師你會不會回來但是我想現在應該是要問學校你還會不會在"},{"start":10705.694,"end":10733.245,"text":"所以在教育部的準則裡面有說同一鄉鎮市區只有一所國小或國中的時候呢或者是說到鄰近的學校有交通重大安全疑慮的時候不得停辦那根據第九條也有規定就是說合併或停辦應由地方主管機關依本法第十條等等等等進行評估等等之後呢來進送那個中央主管機關備查但是就上次我也其實講了這個談前國小他其實並沒有"},{"start":10735.31,"end":10742.866,"text":"開學的時候就直接說要停辦然後就轉走學生了那這件事情有說要被查那現在進度在哪裡?已經被查了嗎?"},{"start":10743.715,"end":10748.678,"text":"我跟委員報告謝謝委員這個當時我們那些有關要整併這個學校要就是要收拾起來的有一個很嚴謹的規則這個原則也就是要確保學生受教的權益目前因為他這個部分我所謂的這個學校比如說真的要終止要廢校了你一定要得到充分的溝通但是看起來沒有以這個"},{"start":10770.869,"end":10780.719,"text":"彈犬國小社區並不是支持縣政府這樣的做法所以這個案子到目前教育部還沒核備但是學生都轉走了沒有被查有沒有被查就學生好像已經於事無補了而且我覺得還要提一個重點就是說這個學校才剛領完經費整修完圖書館"},{"start":10788.166,"end":10802.714,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會"},{"start":10810.359,"end":10825.101,"text":"教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。 廢校這就嚴重這等於是說這個小孩本來才剛適應了這個學校他又要去適應個學校那我想部長一定非常了解孩子需要在一個穩定的秩序感才能夠有一個很好的學習表現而是這樣子等於是讓這些孩子的受教權"},{"start":10825.862,"end":10826.302,"text":"教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":10854.711,"end":10876.623,"text":"這樣子停辦看起來好像就是首長自己決定而並不是真的依循了家長居民等等的意願所以我想要回到剛剛講的就是說我們還是要回到孩子的授教權這件事情那我們有沒有去了解這個連續停辦三所國小的這個問題是不是有考慮協助他們來做分校的方式來進行呢"},{"start":10878.684,"end":10900.981,"text":"我跟委員報告當然縣市國民中小學那個整個新辦的相關的權責啦一地方制度法本來就在地方政府這個我想法制面的規範是如此但是教育部當時為什麼制定這個準則也做了一個要求這個當中完全認同委員剛才談到學校人數再少"},{"start":10902.065,"end":10922.345,"text":"學生受教每一個學生受教的權益是一定要被確立的我們在為什麼要要求這個核備就是說當你比如說溝通完到底比如像以某個學校的這些學生你怎麼去安排他如果要到其他的學校那他的交通問題甚至有沒有其他應該有的配套這些都是我們備查裡面要求的要件"},{"start":10923.946,"end":10945.153,"text":"對,但是我們現在的現況就是說他們其實都沒有完成,但是他也就已經做了這些事情嘛,那聽起來就是非常不合理。我也跟委員報告,不管地方政府或首長也要面對地方他自己的縣市民,因為我覺得教育部依法做司法監督,就是跟委員講的,這樣談錢國小我覺得程序還沒有做適當完備,所以教育部不會去合佩他這個這個停辦案。"},{"start":10947.776,"end":10975.735,"text":"好 那我想沒關係 因為時間的問題我想這部分監察院其實已經介入調查了那民眾也提告了我想我們這部分就持續的關心了但是我還是要回到這件事情啦就是說因為學生數其實就是迅速的下降從117年 我們看右邊這張圖喔它跟111年比起來學生數就是整整少了30萬30萬的人數那這樣子的話我們的應該這個停辦準則要有更細緻的一個規劃啦譬如說是學生人數啦或是優先改從剛剛講的分校的形式"},{"start":10976.276,"end":10985.074,"text":"或者是停辦的時程等等都應該有一個一定的標準所以這個在沒有完成被查程序之前學生留在原校就讀這件事情可不可行"},{"start":10986.73,"end":10990.612,"text":"委員這個如果以這個個案來講我們為何被即時獎證的表示這個庭辦應該還沒有確定那如果以這樣我們再來看看我們這個準則是不是在過渡過程當中應該要再做怎麼樣的去做一些修正我們做一個檢討"},{"start":11007.498,"end":11036.588,"text":"那再來就是說就是在特教我非常感謝就是也很肯定教育部部長潘部長過去這幾年就是其實有調降這個特教生的師生比然後也提供了相當當的資源跟資金來協助第一線的老師跟助理教助理員但是我覺得我們現在還是有一個實際上的問題就是說我們特教資源中心即將法治化那聽起來是對於要來協助學校做更好的一個特殊教育的一個推廣跟落實但是我看了一下這個薪資的問題就是說呢"},{"start":11037.288,"end":11040.013,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":11046.116,"end":11069.102,"text":"這個深粉紅色的,如果一個同樣都是五年師資、年資的老師今天他如果加上主管加級及不休假獎勵一個老師他可以得到67萬在學校的特教組長他是可以得到67萬可是當他今天去了資源中心變成召集人的時候"},{"start":11069.782,"end":11071.844,"text":"最高66萬,整整比在學校少。一般老師留在學校61萬,到資源中心就是59萬,而且還沒有寒暑假。"},{"start":11088.518,"end":11110.192,"text":"那這些都是剛剛講有特教加級的數字所以我想要確認喔因為像這樣子的薪資喔到底要如何吸引老師們願意去資源中心因為這個到資源中心的老師應該是有更有經驗的去協助各地的老師的一些問題嘛所以第一個我們到底有沒有特教加級這是老師非常關注的"},{"start":11112.503,"end":11113.383,"text":"負招集人可兼領兼職費嗎?"},{"start":11132.23,"end":11153.746,"text":"但是呢這個近期開說明會的時候呢草案文字卻變成從每個月的六千塊變成了五千塊所以呢這個召集員跟副召集員為什麼從專業領導費變成兼職費而且數字還降低了那這樣子會更沒有意願去特教資源中心那我認為這是一個非常重要的一個"},{"start":11155.087,"end":11175.184,"text":"學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。 因此,我想詢問這幾個問題,如果在這種狀況之下不能夠只有讓老師套熱情跟使命感去來協助,所以我們到底要如何來吸引特教老師前往服務呢?我跟委員報告,這是也要謝謝我們大院在去年通過國教法跟特教法的修法才是讓"},{"start":11175.925,"end":11186.715,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員會第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教"},{"start":11193.922,"end":11194.663,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12屆第18條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11223.942,"end":11246.716,"text":"對,但是這樣看起來,我們到底會不會有特教加級?我想這是老師非常關心的。特教加級能不能兼領兼職費?兼職費的金額到底是多少?我跟委員報告,我剛才為什麼會說它是整個地方政府的相關組成,不是單獨的單一。所以行政院這一次在核定的各方面應該是比較一致性的給教育部"},{"start":11247.576,"end":11259.741,"text":"給各縣市政府,不是單獨為單一項目。」如果說今天如果有單獨的我們可能要另外從這方面去考慮因為這個涉及教師待遇不是教育部單獨決定行政院當然也有它全面性的考慮這一次我要跟委員報告這已經是一個很大的突破也溝通了好幾個月"},{"start":11266.463,"end":11291.771,"text":"對,但是我想這還是會回到就是說那學老師為什麼要過去?老師就會變成沒有意願的志願就是嗎?是是,我要知道我想我跨這一步儘管我520之後不接我都把它當成一定要在這個之前把它完成現在也完成那我相信後續在各項的能不能再有一定的再努力是不是我們再接續啦好,那不好意思我再問10秒鐘就是說那這個到底什麼時候會公佈實施呢?這個本來就試用新學年開始了"},{"start":11294.071,"end":11309.796,"text":"新學年對,11、3學年度現在就是整個已經完備了現在我們會開始準備做公告但是真的開始試用就新學年度好,沒關係,那我們會繼續討論這個好不好未來有哪些我們特別我想可以用這個基礎再走啦"},{"start":11310.923,"end":11323.69,"text":"對,但是我們會後續討論好了。這不要說以往這些縣市在找的這些什麼都沒有,只有一個名譽而已啦。我想這不對,應該法治化才對。對,理解。好,大家心事也是要解決啦。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。那我們接下來我們請吳村城委員。那在林倩琦委員質詢完畢之後,我們就處理我們的臨時提案。好,謝謝。好,有請潘部長。好,部長,謝謝。是。"},{"start":11342.78,"end":11370.026,"text":"委員好是部長很高興這個又看到你那我今天標題就是希望這個啟動第三人生大學能否成為潘部長給世代的打理這打理就是在520之前就像這個舞台你要羨慕未來有更大的舞台等待著你但這件事情我也覺得"},{"start":11371.884,"end":11387.336,"text":"非常高興的在這個兩個多月之間跟你的互動也得到你的承諾現在在推動第三人生大學的專程推動小組不曉得部長現在這一個"},{"start":11387.876,"end":11394.441,"text":"會繼續下去嗎?我覺得很必要。那不是我個人。我想我要謝謝委員一直在利用這樣的機會來把這個事情給政府部門做參考。就教育部門我覺得很必要。過往我們雖然有一些基礎,但是我覺得一定要再跨往前。所以當時我說除了推動小組,我有發現李育謙理事長有跟我說,委員也建議,這個可能要跨單位。"},{"start":11415.798,"end":11423.421,"text":"他們很快也就簽出這個章案小組要由一位次長來擔任召集人。現在是哪一位次長?目前督導終身司的是林明毅政次不過我覺得那個制度他是正式簽辦所以儘管未來這個我想制度我們可能都會離開這個工作崗位但是這個制度我們把它建立起來應該往下"},{"start":11443.009,"end":11455.264,"text":"因為今天的主題在談偏鄉教育不過我們去想像在偏鄉裡面就兩種人一種是小孩嘛另外一種是什麼壯世代"},{"start":11456.311,"end":11475.64,"text":"那如果我們只重視小孩的教育然後對這些壯世代不聞不問的話那他會產生什麼狀況就是世代的距離越來越遠對不對小孩子關心的有興趣理解的家裡的長輩都不了解所以就會造成代溝"},{"start":11477.021,"end":11505.478,"text":"不溝通了所以我們如果真正然後這個孩子的教育就變成完全是學校的政府的責任家庭責任就沒辦法跟上那這就是我們現在很多的問題產生的原因所以同時這件事情應該要雙兩步了也就是說第三人生大學的一個很重要的意義就是這些人退休之後不是進養老院而是應該進大學我非常希望部長能夠做這樣的一個宣告"},{"start":11507.068,"end":11534.122,"text":"宣告這個本身做規劃還是一件事但是這個代表教育部的信念教育部的決心我們要往這個目標這個大家才會振奮起來大家就是要往那個方向我跟委員報告我應該說這樣一路雖然只有幾個月的時間為什麼從成立專責小組到我覺得不只是中正師應該是跨因為這裡頭未來高教跟技職一定要參與進來"},{"start":11536.303,"end":11546.394,"text":"我也跟委員報告現在因為我們也有全國當然這程度不一啦但是確實也有好幾有二八十幾所的大學有擔任我們樂嶺大學的這個那這當中我也請鐘聲師去評估"},{"start":11551.74,"end":11555.904,"text":"在目前：他不是退場學校喔：他本身就有這樣的一個基礎下那能不能在原來只是樂齡大學那一種比較休閒型的這種課程設計進入到為你所說的啦一個壯世代也許更符應他們未來可以再做第三人生的階段的課程我想這個方向"},{"start":11572.497,"end":11596.543,"text":"應該持續?對,這個方向是對的那現在就是說有些大學所有東西這件事情部長有這個理念但是同時我們一直前面在談的是大學的供應端要把它準備起來但是同時也需要有需求端我們現在壯士代大部分的人還是沒有覺醒的就是他退休以後不知道要幹嘛"},{"start":11597.483,"end":11605.909,"text":"發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事項,並備質詢及檢討。」進行專題報告：一、邀請教育部列席及文化委員會第12屆第18條文修正草案案件事項,並備質詢及檢討。」進行專題報告：一、審查 ：二、審查 ：二、審查 ：二、審查 ：二、審查 ：二、審查 ：二、審查 ：二、審查 ：二、審查 ：二、審查 ：二、審查 ：二、審查 ：二、審查 ：二、審查 ：二、審查 ：二、審查"},{"start":11625.981,"end":11626.101,"text":"公籍及需求"},{"start":11645.58,"end":11672.481,"text":"就是也請教育部在這件供需的那就是今天主要的討論是如何運用這些政策來鼓勵壯士來的積極參與那有一些方法第一個現在其實都已經可以做了就是發放的終身學習卷來提高一些對於像台北市已經有在熱領的這些卷都有那像"},{"start":11674.483,"end":11689.115,"text":"教育部列席及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會第3會期教育部列席及文化委員會第4會期教育部列席及文化委員會第5會期教育部列席及文化委員會第6會期教育部列席及文化委員會第7會期教育部列席及文化委員會第8會期教育部列席及文化委員會第9會期教育部列席及文化委員會第10會期教育部列席及文化委員會第11會期教育部列席及文化委員會第12會期教育部列席及文化委員會第13會"},{"start":11693.258,"end":11712.798,"text":"教育部可以再增加,特別是今天要編列預算,終身教育師的預算實在太低了啦,如果所有事情歸給他們,我相信他們搞不出什麼名堂來啦,是不是應該要擴大他們?一個文章我有一個想法啦,我也跟市長在談,我就說從洛林大學"},{"start":11713.539,"end":11732.709,"text":"到跨一所到兩所真正比較進入我們所思考的這一段那這一段我覺得啦如果已經被使用的可能性反而應該是支持學校一下子因為還沒夠普遍你說去發發卷然後那個我們又沒辦法有那麼大的普遍供應所以我反而會比較認為我們可以階段性的思考這個問題"},{"start":11733.609,"end":11734.45,"text":"發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11754.632,"end":11778.286,"text":"提所得稅法17條扣除額,對於終身學習這部分,像美國可以有20%的扣抵,韓國特別重視無上限,對於成人這種終身學習無上限的扣除,教育部可以往這方面做嗎?"},{"start":11780.069,"end":11795.426,"text":"委員如果涉及到這種稅責稅法可能比較沒有辦法單一由教育部現在這當然就是按照財政紀律法當中財政部要做這事情但是要有主管機關的部會來提出這個規劃"},{"start":11798.109,"end":11798.369,"text":"發展條例第18條文修正草案案。"},{"start":11817.99,"end":11827.175,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":11836.256,"end":11850.683,"text":"會有一兩所,大概什麼時候?五二零我會離開,你不會離開啦,我們再繼續協助這個專責小組提供一些啦。但是不能歸零從頭來啊,我們努力了這麼多,而且你已經有觀念,而且有意願。"},{"start":11852.304,"end":11864.695,"text":"所以委員為什麼說上次你在提醒的時候他回去很快的就希望牽絆一位跨師署的召集的次長所以我今天提的主要就是這種中間學習卷的發放的規劃"},{"start":11868.117,"end":11890.054,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":11905.576,"end":11926.524,"text":"施行迄今之成效及檢討：一、邀請教育部列席就:「偏遠地區教育發展條例第八條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第八條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第八條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第八條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第八條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第八條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第八條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第八條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第八條文修正草案案件事"},{"start":11935.567,"end":11935.767,"text":"總整理"},{"start":11965.171,"end":11980.282,"text":"通常都不是主管機關要招考然後都由學校來自行招考那感覺好像問題地方是不是也推不動或者是不買單我不知道是不是個情形但是學校招考的話可能也有他們一些限制"},{"start":11981.022,"end":12001.749,"text":"第七、第八條提升代理教師的待遇離島以外的地方主管機關很少公開甄選來禁用代理教師學校是可以聘用無證的代理教師但是無證的代理教師也沒有辦法進行公費的施培"},{"start":12002.469,"end":12018.503,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會"},{"start":12025.169,"end":12037.74,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育部列席就擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第12屆第13屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第17屆第18屆第18屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第20屆第20屆第21屆第21屆第21屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22�"},{"start":12050.911,"end":12068.443,"text":"學校也沒有辦法再去把這兩組人做一個嫁接所以好像這個校長沒這個權限也感覺到有可用的人也無法用那第14條的這個部分行政減量其實早上也有很多人提到那很多委員這邊提到"},{"start":12071.266,"end":12086.483,"text":"偏鄉的教師大量的行政作業其實也是很大的一個讓大家沒辦法久留的一個原因甚至要去的時候可能都沒有辦法應對所以也是一個麻煩不過已經很多人提了我相信部裡面這邊早上也做了一些回應那另外"},{"start":12087.543,"end":12091.805,"text":"十七條有混零教學的部分,目前很少有學校這樣做,施培體系也沒有混零教師的相關訓練。"},{"start":12106.551,"end":12126.868,"text":"最後就是19條鼓勵成立區域教育的資源中心結果後來發現全國目前好像還有三分之一的縣市沒有設立偏遠的國中小最多的雲林、南投、屏東都沒有辦法設立這幾個部分我看教育部其實很多東西都做了數據"},{"start":12128.809,"end":12148.886,"text":"這是我做的盤點所以部長這邊如果可以的話就把相關的資料跟數據提供給我但是我今天可能先針對兩個部分跟您這邊做一個討論第一個是流量教師遍佈了全國但是偏鄉卻沒有老師可以來教那不知道部裡面這邊有沒有檢討一下這個問題"},{"start":12150.007,"end":12172.139,"text":"我這邊的數據了解是21萬人有這個教師證可是9萬人沒有職缺就是叫做流浪教師可是偏鄉非都市地區又找不到老師那這個部分不知道部裡面是有什麼有沒有發現這樣一個問題然後有沒有什麼處理的方式不過我這邊因為只剩下一分多鐘我就借用一下洪孟凱委員的話"},{"start":12173.8,"end":12187.135,"text":"部長請你就不要太費心然後就精準的那個很快的這個回應這樣可以嗎那個委員剛才所提到前面那六個議題因為招考這件事情一定是主管機關來辦理"},{"start":12188.877,"end":12190.439,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育部列席"},{"start":12205.401,"end":12205.501,"text":"副副副副"},{"start":12221.308,"end":12228.833,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育部列席就擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文"},{"start":12244.082,"end":12244.722,"text":"新政檢量委員"},{"start":12264.308,"end":12281.181,"text":"縣市跟學校保留太多的缺額甚至偏鄉有達到三、四成保留所以最近這三年教育部逐一的盤點各縣市跟學校也強力的要求因為偏自準則是到8%為原則超過這麼多所以從陸續這三年幾乎每年都有將近5000個缺額釋放出來考試"},{"start":12289.126,"end":12312.934,"text":"這個一方面是讓具備教師證資格的老師有機會來任職那我們也請縣市要做一件事你開的區一定不要忘記偏鄉學校的區要開放出來因為你開的區你甄選的人你才能到那邊嘛你不開區他通通如果自由選擇當然都選擇到比較都會交通方便啊各方面的所以這個幾個背道說是這三年有非常明確的這樣的一個措施"},{"start":12314.775,"end":12331.394,"text":"好的 那現在就是那個執行上的一個問題所以就請確切執行那早上其實也有那個委員好像是陳委員這邊有提到那個有經驗的老師其實都很難留在原鄉那其實九任這個就是九任的這個"},{"start":12332.335,"end":12353.792,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會"},{"start":12358.416,"end":12360.818,"text":"九任讓大家待了好久才會有你講的錢問題是你講的錢如果除以每個月的話每個月才730塊你們算算看我不知道我有沒有算錯如果只有730塊所以我要8年以後才能而且現在應該還沒有人領到吧14年會是第一"},{"start":12379.857,"end":12407.184,"text":"一、四年我們都還不知道現在到底我不知道你們有沒有盤點說現在在明年可以領到的有多少有8500個我們明年再來解釋一下所以8年然後11年跟這個有經驗的教師能不能留下來其實我覺得很大的原因所以我這邊很直接的提出來就是針對這個部分部裡面可不可以以誘因加在鼓勵跟獎金上面"},{"start":12408.064,"end":12425.492,"text":"教育部列席就不要讓大家那麼久才能領到這個錢,然後再者是獎金應該要提高,不要讓大家說我要熬這麼久,感覺好像我們在跟人家這個交換,所以是不是可以以誘因來取代等了很久的獎金,然後第二個部分是獎金要提高。"},{"start":12427.012,"end":12442.597,"text":"提醒一下很巧的一件事剛才有老師講到偏鄉雙語師資的缺乏這不僅還帶領了一個問題藝術跟師培教師到最後很多都會以雙語的條件來娶人所以這個部裡面可能要處理一下這件事情"},{"start":12444.098,"end":12465.556,"text":"最後部裡面有很多數據本席在3月5日問原住民族專班學生就業率所學科系與職場相關性其實在質詢之前我就要過你們叫我們去勞動部我們已經找不到了所以又跟部裡面找每次你們都叫我們去勞動部勞動部就找不到"},{"start":12467.037,"end":12488.363,"text":"教育部,你們那怎麼辦?那要不然你就跟勞動部一起看怎麼處理嘛。總要解決嘛。要不然我們就這樣子,可以四年通通都要不到耶。好嗎?既然你們數據那麼強的話,可以嗎?部長這邊可以給我一個承諾嗎?要嘛就是你們教育部做,要不然你們就看勞動部,到最後給我一個結果。這個會期我一定要到啊。"},{"start":12491.383,"end":12508.111,"text":"主席已經站起來了,就是 either yes or no,可以嗎?委員我想我們跟勞動部再對焦一下,因為長期的整個職場的統計,我們要不要請,再有關委員關心的這個對象,能夠聚焦,不然就是一直重複在做類似的事情。不是啦,就是給我一個數據的結果啦,這樣我才能夠進行下一步的了解啊,好嗎?謝謝。"},{"start":12521.571,"end":12536.018,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":12538.735,"end":12558.719,"text":"第1案有鑒於教育部為因應校園霸凌事件之防範與處理進行全盤檢討並修正校園霸凌防制準則為能夠防為渡戒、關注、顧及各種跡象之可能發生有別於明顯有感可見的歧視有關無處不在的為其是Microaggression"},{"start":12559.219,"end":12573.727,"text":"一直表面上並未有明顯的攻擊意味卻多表現在日常語言、肢體語言或者其他環境中對特定對象如少數族裔、有色人種、殘疾人、女性等進行有意或無意的侵蝕、怠慢、詆毀和侮辱等。"},{"start":12576.949,"end":12593.831,"text":"應將其納入準則並列為反霸凌宣導教育及輔導課程項目或定義說明入法。借請教育部、文化部內政部及法務部進行有關為期式定義、宣導與法令條文之研究評估並於一個月內向立法院教育文化委員會提出書面報告。"},{"start":12594.452,"end":12618.562,"text":"提案人林倩琦、侯孟凱、萬美林柯之恩、鄭天才第二案教育部於109年4月4日新聞稿指出財團法人中華民國兒童福利聯盟文教基金會及業務涉及兒童教育教育部主管及兒童福利衛福部主管屬財團法人法第3條所定業務涉及數個中央目的事業主管機關者以其主要業務制中央目的事業主管機關為主管機關教育部將視該業務"},{"start":12623.444,"end":12646.635,"text":"該會業務比重,是其目的是業務發展情況輔導其辦理改例。而《福聯盟》於113年3月7日新聞稿指出目前有475名全職工作同仁、社工業務人員超過330位,占比超過7成。今請教育部依規定辦理改例。提案人顧逸琴、連署人吳佩義、陳培余宣的完畢。"},{"start":12647.776,"end":12673.602,"text":"好,我們先處理第一案。第一案我們的提案人是林倩琦委員。請問針對這個案子有沒有需要說明的?謝謝,我這個主要是上個禮拜因為文化部這邊我們針對公共電視我提出來一個建議跟要求所以這個為其事我們常常都會忽略掉那但是當然文化跟教育這個不可分所以這個部分我不知道部裡面是"},{"start":12674.702,"end":12689.399,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":12691.638,"end":12719.166,"text":"有,先有針對硬僵體我們是建議委員這個是不是讓我們演繹因為相關的怎麼樣的內容還是應該要做一個探討往這個方向走所以我們是不是建議加演繹兩個字啦那而於因為其他部會今天沒有出席我可能比較不能代表其他部會做委員後面那教育部做說針對相關的這些我們就配合辦只是因為有其他的幾個部會我比較不能代表部會回應這個委員這個問題"},{"start":12721.76,"end":12748.971,"text":"那我確定一下就是你們會辦那只是說對於內容上怎麼處理你們會研議嗎這樣就是你會辦但是內容上研議這樣可以嗎他是因說要研議要怎麼樣來處理但是他只針對教育部他自己可以管轄的範圍但是他這個部分牽涉的部分其實有包括文化部內政部等等所以教育部只能針對他自己的部分他要來研議是否可以把它將入準則"},{"start":12753.308,"end":12773.127,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會"},{"start":12777.518,"end":12805.507,"text":"所以說最好的方法就是是否可以請 我不曉得是不是可以請教育部來會同文化部、內政部等等之類大家共同來研議 看是否可把它納為準則這樣子可不可以 一個月之內這樣修比較好 可以嗎 可以因為他要會同其他的班位因為教育部只能處理他們自己這樣沒有辦法達到你當初的需求所以教育部來會同其他的部分你覺得這樣可以嗎對 第一個你會做嘛然後就是內容文化部不要忘記還有公共電視喔"},{"start":12806.806,"end":12807.686,"text":"第二部分請提案人郭育琴委員"},{"start":12834.033,"end":12859.845,"text":"前面應該都沒有問題因為這個應該是教育部你們自己的新聞稿的部分嘛就是在兒福聯盟他們的業務範圍的部分那最後的那一個部分就是建請教育部依規定辦理改例這個地方是不是可以直接就請教育部一個月內依財團法人法第四條協調衛福部及兒福聯盟辦理改例大概是這樣一個月內可以嗎"},{"start":12862.035,"end":12883.244,"text":"委員這樣好不好謝謝剛才這樣的文字我只在增加因為改例不是教育部說我這個單位要求你衛福部要接受但是啟動這個絕對必要因為衛福部我知道不好意思因為剛我們最近在整理我為什麼說一定要趕快啟動因為這個對這個事情才是好的辦理否則"},{"start":12884.585,"end":12907.613,"text":"教育部是督導主管機關可是又不是督導到他現在在出事情這些相關的業務所以委員我是不是建議辦理改例事項但是是不是在一個月內完成這個我覺得應該要給一點時間這兩個部會是有共識的有共識有共識那三個月可以嗎就是認為俄府的業務以他自己目前所辦的就應該要改例到主要業務的主管機關嗎"},{"start":12908.433,"end":12915.703,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第11次全體委員會第12次全體委員會第13次全體委員會第14次全體委員會第15次全體委員會第16次全體委員會第17次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第18次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第19次全體委員會第20次全體委員會第21次全體委員會第22次全體委員會第22次全體委員會第23次全體委員會第24次全體委員會第24次全體委員會第24次全體委員會第25次全體委員會第26次全體委員會第27次全體委員會第28次全體委員會第29次全體委員會第30次全體委員會第30次全體委員會第30次"},{"start":12917.914,"end":12943.455,"text":"現在我還有另外一個問題我是很怕說因為如果依照財團法人法的第四條如果說兒福聯盟他們自己本身沒有要來做改例的動作的話那教育部這邊我們主管機關應該可以吧你如果以這樣子大的比例的工作都不是文教的基金會的任務嗎"},{"start":12944.616,"end":12964.109,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":12976.897,"end":13001.605,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第15會期教育及文化委員會第16會期教育及文化委員會第17會"},{"start":13004.482,"end":13008.304,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4"},{"start":13025.407,"end":13039.292,"text":"有沒有人要補籤的話就可以到主席台前面來做一個補籤好不好那我們現在就繼續來進行我們的質詢那我們是請登記第15號的徐富奎委員我們質詢時間4分鐘 謝謝謝謝主席 有請教育部部長好 我們請部長"},{"start":13053.246,"end":13067.021,"text":"學院吾安部長我想今天我們的主題是針對偏遠地區學校發展那我想相關的軟硬體建設應該都是教育部應該要重視的我想這點部長應該認同吧是"},{"start":13068.422,"end":13093.977,"text":"那我請教部長去年10月份我們小犬颱風橫掃橫春半島造成我們滿洲國中受損很嚴重那當時我們蔡英文總統在10月6號帶領我們相關的部會的同仁到屏東勘栽的時候有要求我們教育部要來支持我們滿洲國中的一個重建的計畫案那請教部長目前這個案子的進度"},{"start":13100.355,"end":13106.44,"text":"這一點本席表達很嚴重的遺憾我們屏東縣政府正式行文兩次到貴部我自己本身在辦公室也開過協調會到目前為止沒有下文"},{"start":13121.94,"end":13149.649,"text":"跟委員報告一下,那您所提的這個案子有提到一是規劃設計費了,二是工程款,三是不理歷來我們會協助的是教學設備,所以這個跟屏東縣會有一些合作,包含說教學設備的部分,它只要蓋完前半年,教學設備我們可以分年全部補助,謝謝。目前是現在連蓋的經費,以屏東縣政府的財力根本都不可能負擔,怎麼處理這件事情?"},{"start":13152.289,"end":13163.33,"text":"委員我不曉得這個學校這個地方是因為老舊還是因為颱風會造成學校重建我是對這個比較沒有我說我需要進一步了解是這個"},{"start":13164.518,"end":13191.114,"text":"對,所以...因為如果是...署裡面到目前為止也沒有把這個...因為如果是災損本來就有災損的處理的機制跟費用如果是老舊重建委員那就是另外一個必須要討論的啦部長這件案子確實是因為小犬颱風造成了一個颱風的一個災損那所以屏東縣政府根據小英總統在現場的指示馬上就是請學校把文也做了也刊准到我們會議"},{"start":13191.914,"end":13193.757,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期"},{"start":13208.718,"end":13226.191,"text":"所以看到4月3號我們花蓮大地震之後教育部針對花蓮的學校在後重建提到馬上重寬重塑讓我們滿洲的鄉親很心酸啊一樣是地震一樣是災損卻有不一樣的處理標準請教部長難道屏東人不應該不會啦"},{"start":13228.172,"end":13249.072,"text":"對屏東的學校建設教育部給予非常多的支持,包含到現在你可以跟周縣長瞭解到因為他的財政不是很理想只是委員講到這個個案我必須要跟委員報告說我再瞭解他是因為災損還是因為老舊這個比如像花蓮女中啊其他中小學委員所及的這個這是因為地震所以立刻就啟動災損包含相關的這個費用去做處置啦"},{"start":13253.036,"end":13279.157,"text":"部長我想這個我們都有相關的媒體報道這都是小岩總統在現場當場交代的所以請教育部不要害小岩總統施行愚民那另外針對我們的屏東的這個師資因為我們有很多的偏鄉那其實很多的老師他對於所謂的一個行政負擔的比例過重常常有很多的怨言那這次我們的偏教條例上面看到所謂的一個"},{"start":13280.919,"end":13288.05,"text":"要用班級數來換取老師的緣額而不是考量所謂一個教學科目跟行政的部分那這部分我們教育部怎麼來做調整"},{"start":13289.445,"end":13306.478,"text":"委員所提到的有關師資的這一部分那確實目前我們都希望學校盡量的把這個缺有開放出來那這幾年有真的增補了很多那對於在這裡面的待遇待課的專聘的這些老師我們會給予有關師培的這些內容的這樣的機會"},{"start":13313.323,"end":13327.431,"text":"那麼委員提到這個2022年的這個新聞我不曉得因為這幾年我跟委員報告專任教師的缺額全國每年大概都開出將近5000個的缺額在聘專任教師"},{"start":13329.448,"end":13358.279,"text":"好,部長謝謝除了這個事之之外本期主要還是要強調屏東縣我們有200多所的學校那其中碰到的困難叫做非三非四那這個非三非四的一個認定本期認為有檢討的必要尤其我們在座宗教兵委員非常清楚我們這個標準對於我們學校實在是非常的不敬公平尤其對於所謂一些教育資源的一些軟硬體建設真的給予很大很大的一個限制那這部分我們也要求教育部來做一個調整以上"},{"start":13358.539,"end":13377.276,"text":"如果那個評估的指標委員覺得我們剛剛一直都在收集第一線的一些意見如果委員覺得說有一些具體認為要再做哪一個調整能夠讓屬於這樣的類型的學校也能符應這個評估這個我想委員再提供給我們陳儒部長知道我們的屏東縣的財政很困難學校的補助或是證価那真的很難辦"},{"start":13381.68,"end":13388.726,"text":"委員剛才講那個個案學校我會再跟署長這邊再深入了解不要讓小英總統失信於民謝謝不會不會好謝謝好謝謝我們的許委員接下來我們請何欣淳委員謝謝張偉柯委員我們請部長好我們請部長謝謝"},{"start":13405.803,"end":13415.212,"text":"教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育"},{"start":13421.457,"end":13443.286,"text":"需要精進的地方,所以我們也希望520新部長的時候應該您跟他要無縫的接軌,現在正在幫你交接嘛,對不對?是,那我想我們一向很關心的,就是剛剛除了非三非四的一些學校,國中小,但事實上現在年輕家長更重視的,更需要政府重視的什麼?幼教。"},{"start":13443.806,"end":13452.138,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會"},{"start":13460.45,"end":13465.935,"text":"但是我們最重要的是月收費僅收2000塊這對家長來講當然是一大福音那也是政府能夠經費上的補助然後給年輕家長一個最大的一個利多但是我雖然一定要支持但是我要問的是什麼我問的是"},{"start":13481.107,"end":13484.208,"text":"教育部國教署有針對全國各縣市公幼教保人員的人力調度有做盤點跟要求地方政府做補足嗎?"},{"start":13496.594,"end":13497.995,"text":"我跟委員報告那個當然原來會也是委員長期關注那個降低班級的升職比公共化優先嘛而且已經往上再進行因為這個確實會減輕教保同仁的負擔"},{"start":13512.906,"end":13529.854,"text":"自於沿途的這部分,我們目前會有一個配套的機制,如果說這個學校的人力規模比較大,人力真的有困難,我們會以加制可以協助課後照顧的這個概念的方式來做。可以加制一個可以來協助課後照顧的人?會由原所提出這個需求。"},{"start":13532.995,"end":13544.079,"text":"原所提出需求,中央來支持。」 對對對那這個加上這一名人力他的專業、他的能力這個有規範嗎?一定要規範嗎?那個會比,因為他就是客戶照顧的概念他的資格會放得較寬一些OK,但是他是不是沒有規範啊?"},{"start":13551.081,"end":13556.062,"text":"竟然有規範 要照顧這些小朋友還是很專業可是他不是用教保人員的那個唯一的規範所以你會有一個補充人力的這樣一個補助計畫因為在今年的暑假後啟動嘛我們開始試行後發現家長啊這個反應也很熱絡當然這個減輕他很大的負擔以前照算一個月一個暑假大概要負擔一萬多現在把它降為兩千"},{"start":13580.629,"end":13587.373,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會"},{"start":13605.402,"end":13630.076,"text":"那這個是要長治久安就是說制度性的一個規定那個教育部推的方案都不是一次啦很多地方政府會認為說教育部可能一開始補助的一年兩年沒有承諾長年那有的地方政府會有不同的解讀嘛所以呢為了要讓我們年輕家長安心那我們這個制度就是長長久久會推動下去中央也會支持要求地方政府來大家一起合作嘛那是一個制度不是一次性"},{"start":13631.657,"end":13654.013,"text":"接著因為公幼教保人員的人力的問題我就要問我們公幼的教保人員昨天我相信產業公會有提出現行公幼的教保人員很難修特修因為第一個我們師生比又要降低人力顯得不足又必須要關照很多很多的方方面面請問一下我們有配套嗎"},{"start":13655.695,"end":13676.873,"text":"雖然教育部的回答是推給勞動部要去做勞檢但是我覺得這不是只有勞動部勞檢的問題我們除了要去勞檢要去要求我們另外是不是教育部從正面的鼓勵也可以去支持如何讓我們這些公幼的這個人力的教保人員的特休的權益可以兼顧我應該這樣子說現在目前的配比"},{"start":13681.136,"end":13686.56,"text":"自已說一個原方內老師的請休假等等的都一定會有人力調度的問題如果在人力調度不行但是他真的有加班比如額外服務的事實那應該來支持的是這種額外給老師的補貼因為這個制度大概要這樣設計這個才有辦法"},{"start":13701.209,"end":13707.791,"text":"對阿所以我說教育部要跟勞動部一起來好好的來尋求一個很平的解方啦不是只有裁罰勞檢裁罰我覺得是教育部要正向的去支持如何去解決這個問題嘛才能夠確保教保人員的權利嘛您這個如果說現在目前有這種現況我們覺得應該彙整一下"},{"start":13720.674,"end":13728.019,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會"},{"start":13758.514,"end":13784.078,"text":"謝謝主席。有請部長。好,我們請潘部長,謝謝。黃岳豪。部長。是。我一直百思不解地一直想要問的是什麼?我們在過去到現在一直說原住民是要進入到原住民的實驗學校。所謂的實驗學校的定義在哪裡?你來回答一下。"},{"start":13784.438,"end":13803.746,"text":"我跟委員報告原來我們本來就有實驗教育三法當時在整個推動確實有很多部落的學校他們希望能夠對於原住民族、文化、語言這些能夠在課程當中有所突破所以現在這個他們也可以適用這樣的法律部長我們現在是用一個對談的方式中華民國來到台灣是民國幾年"},{"start":13814.52,"end":13840.641,"text":"原住民在過去到現在是在中華民國之前還是之後?原住民當然更早了請問一下我們要用實驗的方式嗎?我們要用這樣的想法好了要用實驗的方式嗎?因為應該是你們漢人要學習我們原住民的文化這個是一個尊重但是現在要用實驗"},{"start":13842.537,"end":13863.367,"text":"我們訪觀一下看一下國際的這些國家對原住民的尊重在毛利人在紐西蘭他們設立了他們有他們的屬於的專屬因為他們尊重了原住民的文化的定義跟精神今天我看了這個這個"},{"start":13865.568,"end":13884.787,"text":"這個根本就是把我們原住民當實驗看待的角色面嘛那過去日本時代的時候是以翻自翻現在的教育是以翻自正為什麼老師要用這種態度對我們原住民的教育"},{"start":13885.936,"end":13903.433,"text":"我們一直以來希望能夠呼籲我們有一個專屬獨立的一個原住民的完全中協原因就在這裡第二個國民教育的12年我們本來就應該照著我們國民教育的這些"},{"start":13904.754,"end":13924.622,"text":"教育來遵行,但是對原住民的專屬的獨立學校完全中協也應以尊重。我們看一看你們過去裡面所推動的國教署給本席的資料目前原民10院學校小協共有38所,中協僅有5所。"},{"start":13927.628,"end":13955.577,"text":"到了高中只剩下一所,銜接不出來嘛。為什麼?你國小裡面竟然已經有38所的實驗學校,到了國民中學也應該是38所,到了高中也應該是38所,為什麼到了後面只剩下一所?所以這就是一個我要常常談的一個什麼,民主教育法"},{"start":13957.103,"end":13985.537,"text":"趕快通過本席就是在上任之後我已經草擬了這些草案民主教育法學校法民主教育法已經通過了民主教育法現在要等著為什麼因為它的實情細則在裡面但是我請部長特別要重視原住民的教育一定要尊重完全中協從幼稚園、國小、國中、高中"},{"start":13986.975,"end":14008.858,"text":"應該受以保障因為它有16組在裡面在裡面彼此尊重它的教育跟它的文化的原性這就是我們要一直強調的我們不是開刀被實現出來的原住民我們應該要尊重原住民的最根本這才是真正要去執行的好不好"},{"start":14009.525,"end":14023.973,"text":"我跟委員報告原住民主學校法中央主責機關是原民會那教育部之前負責的是原住民主教育法原住民主教育法已經修訂公佈了所以我跟你講說請放手給原民會去做嘛"},{"start":14024.633,"end":14028.676,"text":"教育發展條例第18條文修正草案案案件, 由委員委員會主政委員會主政委員會主政委員會主政委員會主政委員會主政"},{"start":14058.151,"end":14061.412,"text":"好 謝謝兩位接下來我們請伍麗華委員謝謝主席 有請教育部長好 我們請潘部長"},{"start":14072.941,"end":14078.143,"text":"部長好首先我也要先謝謝昭緯今天排偏鄉條例對我來講很重要但是呢在這個開始以前我想要先來謝謝部長就是這些年給予原住民學校的一個幫助您在2016年7月就是上任後第一個參訪的學校應該是我的學校蒂摩爾國小是"},{"start":14099.032,"end":14115.664,"text":"當時我有跟您提到因為原住民學校在推動民族教育碰到一個瓶頸也就是我們的課程跟我們的環境是沒有辦法搭配因為我們的校舍大概都是民國六十幾年的這種建築物所以當時有跟您提議說可不可以來補助"},{"start":14117.825,"end":14122.128,"text":"推動民族教育的學校改善文化環境,推動民族教育的學校改善文化環境,推動民族教育的學校改善文化環境,推動民族教育的學校改善文化環境,推動民族教育的學校改善文化環境,"},{"start":14141.46,"end":14161.434,"text":"所謂辦理課程發展中心那雖然後來變成是課程協作中心站在輔導的立場但是呢我也是要特別謝謝就是這些人他們陪伴了非常多的實驗學校以及一般的原住民重點學校那第三個就是實驗學校呢也在您的任內就是遍體開花那目前已經來到國中小有40所"},{"start":14165.457,"end":14188.482,"text":"當然我會希望未來我們教育部要重視因為12年之後我們要面臨所謂的何去何從我們一直說要變成原住民族學校當然因為共識不足大家還沒有辦法去真正定義什麼叫原住民族學校但是在我的定義就是以族群語言為中心的一個民族學校我希望在不久的將來我們也能夠通過"},{"start":14192.723,"end":14215.122,"text":"在這裡我就是要談到偏鄉偏鄉我們看到院警工程有去做一個調查調查83%的偏鄉家長其實他最在乎老師是否有教學熱忱第二個就是願意陪伴學生確實在我任教這麼多年當中我自己也在偏鄉服務過我覺得有熱忱願意陪伴學生"},{"start":14219.105,"end":14223.687,"text":"我覺得這個是一個好老師非常重要的條件那為什麼我要特別這樣子談因為我們談到偏鄉教育條例最重要的就是解決偏鄉缺乏師資的問題留不住老師的問題所以我看到目前的資料就是在你們的報告上面活躍的儲備教師將近3萬人"},{"start":14241.596,"end":14254.548,"text":"那我不曉得說將近3萬的儲備教師有沒有去了解他們有多少的比例他的志願第一志願是希望到偏鄉服務但是至少我看到很多的團體像TFT他們就是以去偏鄉為他們主要的職質那我現在就是希望說我們的偏鄉教育條例在當年"},{"start":14263.536,"end":14264.457,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":14281.047,"end":14299.322,"text":"發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。 究竟他所謂的九任是6年就好8年就好還是12年就好那我覺得我們都沒有意見就算是12年只要能夠轉正我相信這些有熱誠願意在偏鄉的教師一定是願意的那大家也會願意去成全那留在偏鄉多久"},{"start":14300.063,"end":14325.941,"text":"有人說26年就可以轉到一般教師會不會全部跑光其實就算他轉正之後把他框住在永遠留在偏鄉我想大家也會獲得大家一致的認同所以我很希望這個部分在偏鄉教育條例呢能夠去處理那另外一個部分就是我在2021年呢有針對我們偏鄉教育條例呢他有一個限制就是在他的第12條"},{"start":14327.222,"end":14346.094,"text":"他有兩個東西一個是15人的數額我們當時我的修正版本是說希望改正為人數稀少因為少子化之後其實這個15人很難達到啦但是那時候沒有修正通過那第二個就是呢他裡面有提到就是要合法建物"},{"start":14346.954,"end":14360.064,"text":"部長您應該也知道我們很多偏鄉分班分校哪有什麼合法建物連地都不合法所以這個部分呢我希望說我們再次拿出來希望能夠支持來修正通過那讓我們的偏鄉能夠有更好的師資更好的環境那留住更多的偏鄉學校而不是處於廢校好不好"},{"start":14367.17,"end":14389.366,"text":"好 謝謝委員剛才的幾項提議我想會請國教署因為這段時間也在整理這些相關意見那委員剛才提到有一點我覺得我們在政策上在上次的條例有把它建制了就是說那些很有熱忱的老師我們當時在條例裡面是用專聘老師不是只指說他就是待課老師或符合資格但未必取得教師證的用專聘老師只是這個"},{"start":14391.568,"end":14401.875,"text":"我們希望再更進一步因為像宜蘭我知道有些地方政府他其實用地方的處理那我覺得中央要更進步這幾年我們大量開專任教室我想委員在座就了解這幾年每年大概五千位啦但是我相信怎麼樣學校都還會有這一種需要有代理就專聘教師我想我會請國教署應該接續把這個部分再擴大"},{"start":14416.966,"end":14419.989,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育部列席就有機會成為正式教師：立法院第11屆第2會期教育部列席就有機會成為正式教師：委員魯明哲等24人擬具"},{"start":14449.64,"end":14458.367,"text":"主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關署長、官員、會長、工作夥伴、媒體記者、女士先生。有請教育部潘部長、國教署潘署長。"},{"start":14464.225,"end":14480.89,"text":"今天我就延續著剛剛吳立華委員的我們都想要讓偏鄉的學校留住保住但是關鍵不只是班級人數還要留住幼兒才能保住偏鄉學校那我這邊提出的是10年的契約幼教師可以家長安心"},{"start":14481.71,"end":14498.892,"text":"那之前呢我今天收到的教育部應該是國教署做的啦我看一下怎麼答非所問後來發現這是我在4月12號院長答詢的時候的承諾事項結果呢你們的理解好像我不得不今天再說第三次來我們再看一下這些資料來往下看"},{"start":14500.25,"end":14521.359,"text":"非七都的教保人員目前的差額是一萬兩千多人。如果換上幼小是差了六千三百人。這個我就不再贅述。這是包含公立、非營利、私立和准公立往下看。那麼非公幼的業者集中在哪裡呢?我們很清楚,集中在七都。怎麼說?你看看。"},{"start":14522.279,"end":14531.31,"text":"非7度的地方我們私立委員的比例其實呢不到五成這邊是高達快七成為什麼?為什麼比例差這麼多?部長你猜猜看"},{"start":14533.51,"end":14555.135,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":14561.796,"end":14571.73,"text":"國小、公幼有額滿嗎?偏向的國小、公幼有額滿嗎?委員所指的是招生額滿還是社制?招生招生招生跟社都沒有滿為什麼?來往下看"},{"start":14572.998,"end":14601.394,"text":"因為我們國小附幼用的是幼教師他跟國小老師一樣四點鐘就下課了他沒有義務要負責課後照顧所以我家長呢送到國小附幼我還有個考量我要去找安親班我偏鄉都沒有幼教都沒有那個私立的幼兒園了我哪裡去找安親對不對所以現在是不是每個偏鄉的國小都有附幼有沒有 沒有嘛甚至有國小附幼的還不見得招得滿署長你瞭解這個困境嗎"},{"start":14603.472,"end":14604.713,"text":"瞭解嗎?"},{"start":14604.713,"end":14632.045,"text":"瞭解齁?好,那所以呢,結果得什麼結果?偏鄉的家長、年輕父母啊,他就背著怎麼樣?因為連父幼都沒有啦,他就照把孩子帶到他的工作地,到都市裡面,他工作地點,然後呢用這麼的補助,但是付的錢比較高,而且品質也不見得好。而且呢,這種情況下,他們最困擾的就是,如果留在偏鄉,剛養強的代理老師,經常在更換,那怎麼解決?怎麼解決?我剛剛上次有提過,往下看。"},{"start":14633.021,"end":14647.748,"text":"施論裡面來盤點一下先盤點偏鄉或非山非市的地區他們這些家長他們到都會地區跨區幼托的情況怎麼樣去了解一下實際居住地的幼托需求可不可以請署長做一下這個統計可以嗎去做個統計了解一下可以齁"},{"start":14651.82,"end":14674.755,"text":"沒問題啦,部長你可以對麥克風說啦,不然我點頭要讀你的治理語言。可以喔,好。那接下來呢,我們來看一下,那接下來就是私職的問題了。我上次有提過,我們私幼準公幼他的教保員的起薪從過去的兩萬九提到三萬,不錯啦。公幼非營利教保員從三萬二到三萬八,但是你知道我們國小教師薪水多少嗎?國小教師起薪大概多少?"},{"start":14679.045,"end":14688.651,"text":"施行迄今之成效及檢討：一、邀請教育部列席就:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及公立學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及公立學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及公立學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及公立學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及公立學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及公立學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案"},{"start":14707.335,"end":14730.751,"text":"就是我們用10年契約的方式來禁用幼教師跟教保員因為根據我們幼照法第32條根據勞基法禁用的人員他可以做什麼他可以做課後留員的照顧他跟國小教師不一樣如果你的國小的偏鄉的國小副幼你用公立教師的起薪你跟他打10年的契約用契約禁用那麼這些失陪的失陪生"},{"start":14731.491,"end":14754.85,"text":"流浪教師還沒有考上正式教師之前他可以來這裡任教部長可不可以考慮一下這樣的一個評估上次有問過我先回應委員前面那個婦幼公幼對國小婦幼就那個因為我們考慮到其實這不只是學生啦是家長負擔啦對所以推出新的制度就是公幼延拖包含暑假那原期他們負擔非常的重"},{"start":14755.89,"end":14766.112,"text":"這個其實有大幅的改變這個改變就是說原來他要雙托所以他不選擇公幼這個做了很大的改變成效為由請看目前來講數量是擴大很多那至於剛才委員談到教保的這個問題這個當然這個待遇教育部可以研議但是他如果一旦涉及到這個還可能會跟行政院人士總督要做討論我為什麼問陳院長"},{"start":14780.635,"end":14802.643,"text":"教育業是行政院的成績但我建議你們可以從非七都的偏鄉像屏東縣的偏鄉先試辦比如說屏東縣現在有三所國小要廢校了那其中要在高速它是一個舊樓舊樓跟新豐另外一個在內埔是喬治國小廢校那新豐也好舊樓也好你不管廢哪一個居民都願意都不捨"},{"start":14803.263,"end":14812.113,"text":"教育部立法院第11屆第1會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第3會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第3會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期"},{"start":14822.344,"end":14834.67,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":14841.414,"end":14868.169,"text":"到都會跨區托育的情況實際評估他的幼托需求來將現在偏鄉可能面臨廢校的這些國小你以國小復育的方式比照正式教育薪水以10年的長月勞教金用這樣的幼教成年人員請做一個評估 可以嗎好 謝謝好 謝謝鍾委員接下來鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員王美惠委員王美惠委員王美惠委員范雲委員"},{"start":14872.529,"end":14878.965,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期"},{"start":14883.732,"end":14910.587,"text":"部長午安謝謝部長之前我在為花蓮服務的時候也都非常關心花蓮的偏遠教育的各種設施那今天因為召委安排這個主題主要是偏遠地區這個部分想要修法跟施肢的問題那剛剛我聽了蠻多您對委員的詢答我想您應該會同意就是偏遠地區目前施肢還是很不足夠吧"},{"start":14912.076,"end":14937.371,"text":"我應該這樣子說偏遠地區在招聘老師是有碰到困難那以目前我們的師資的培育量就是儲備量其實看對應於這個缺額其實是超過只是說他們有沒有意願到那這幾年這應該說連續三年我們是要求地方政府要釋放要正式提出專職的正式的缺額每年大概有4000多位到5000"},{"start":14938.471,"end":14952.798,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":14963.563,"end":14964.844,"text":"學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案"},{"start":14989.955,"end":15006.49,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會"},{"start":15014.778,"end":15043.072,"text":"等於是偏遠地區大概是每四位教師就有一個是代理教師那當然我們了解就是這一定會對就是教育然後對學生的學習有影響那我們再回來看就是目前的解方那去年教育部有報告過那教育部做了很多的努力那包含就是制定我們這個偏遠條例經費補助培育公費生等等那今天我想針對就是偏遠條例的第八條第二項的規定"},{"start":15044.693,"end":15046.295,"text":"教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":15067.396,"end":15091.516,"text":"我覺得這是很好的設計可是我想部長應該了解目前實際的情形我們看了一下實際情形其實開課開出來的全台灣去年只有台南大學開一班收60個人部長知道哪裡有問題嗎只有收60個人我們剛講那個代理教室是4000多人"},{"start":15093.224,"end":15111.865,"text":"公文報告因為在條例當時就也是一個鼓勵我們有建立那個專聘教師的制度有做一些比較也是跟就是9任有相關的規範但也有給這個他們可以用公費去做後面施培有機會取得"},{"start":15112.546,"end":15132.706,"text":"所以這個確實在源頭就是這幾年因為我們大量釋出正式教師缺額縣市也辦甄選所以變成在執行專聘教師的這部分的人數是相對的因為數字可以看得出來是比較不夠所以就會衍生說就是這樣的資格去參與施培人數就不是那麼多了"},{"start":15133.581,"end":15158.857,"text":"我想這裡面還是有一些環環相扣的問題至少就這個部分那我看到的是因為你這個學分班分成兩大類一類就是偏遠地區是免費參加另外一類二、三類是各校自聘的無證代理教師是自費參加的那整個這個學分班目前其實開辦了說實在也不長只有三年那我們現在看到的110年112年的資訊"},{"start":15163.039,"end":15183.161,"text":"屬於第1類免費人數都很少。就我的理解我覺得這個部分第一個只有開國小的學分班可是我前面給部長看到的國中教師的流動率代理教師比率就是更高的所以不知道為什麼只有開國小"},{"start":15184.162,"end":15211.246,"text":"二、規定如果沒有第一類人員就不開班。實際上第一類人員全台只剩澎湖現有,112年的第一類報名者只有3人。我想就這個部分來講,部長是不是可以考慮一下我從這個部分的了解。第一個,未來其實應該要加開中學的類科,因為至少我們從前面來講,不管是就流動率,"},{"start":15211.886,"end":15213.046,"text":"教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":15226.659,"end":15244.334,"text":"二、邀請部長理解不需要一定要綁公費者才能開班第三、教育部應評估現行自費者是否搭配久留偏遠服務的配套是否可以提供公費之可能性讓這方式更符合我們期待的公共利益"},{"start":15251.9,"end":15281.54,"text":"公文報告,國中中學的部分會在一、一、三學年度開班,不會只有小學。過去幾年為什麼沒有開中學?因為當時的數量確實不是非常足夠,現在覺得已經走了一段時間應該比較穩定,國中應該。至於自費,應該說學校自辦甄選的跟我們原來有一個專聘制度,專聘制度是條例裡面一個很重要的精神,它就是結合九任的"},{"start":15282.1,"end":15283.961,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":15298.271,"end":15313.113,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":15313.814,"end":15318.117,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12屆第13屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第20屆第20屆第21屆第21屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22"},{"start":15334.628,"end":15357.963,"text":"我其實就是希望教育部做一個謹慎的評估就是現行自費者如果搭配九流偏遠服務配套的話那就評估是不是有一個公費的可能性好不好我覺得這樣來斟酌會比較可惜第一個您剛講馬上就會開了嘛那二跟三的部分是不是可以在一個月之內給我辦公室一個你們的初步評估報告好嗎可以一個月嗎好謝謝潘部長"},{"start":15361.146,"end":15362.186,"text":"楊瓊瑛委員、楊瓊瑛委員、楊瓊瑛委員、邱志偉委員。國教署彭署長"},{"start":15391.871,"end":15414.864,"text":"為了教育問題,這個中山可以不吃,但是一定還是要質詢。在高雄有個學校,國小,校長這個偷拍啊,永不錄用。這個為什麼校長,作為一個校長有層層的這個把關的機制領選啊,而且他也曾經擔任過校長,他是校長也擔任一段時間啊,為什麼一個學校校長,"},{"start":15416.575,"end":15423.974,"text":"會出現這種低劣的行為?你要怎麼教導學生?你要怎麼領導學校?這問題到底是出在哪裡?部長。"},{"start":15425.866,"end":15442.942,"text":"我跟委員報告這個當然學校地方遴選學校到培訓其實是一段蠻長的時間那對於教育人員有一些我們說違背相關法律甚至我們說違背專業倫理的我要跟委員報告這個確實像這種個別性的部分確實我們比較不容易說這個透過一些"},{"start":15452.811,"end":15457.418,"text":"基本的資格、能力表現等等就可以看得出來因為這個現象為什麼陳市長會在第一時間馬上因為我想他領選市府領選完這個校長我們已經存在著時間然後有人知道的知情不報"},{"start":15467.273,"end":15468.634,"text":"教育部立法院第11屆第1會期教育部立法院第12屆第13屆"},{"start":15498.354,"end":15500.055,"text":"審查委員柯志恩等18人擬具第18條條文修正草案案"},{"start":15517.884,"end":15530.712,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":15539.854,"end":15561.602,"text":"委員這個如果他是直接沒有辦理退休,當然就會停格在那裡。還有沒有受到其他法律上的制裁,除了行政法之外?委員這個包含北部有某個學校、大學也發生類似,這個本來就有這個刑法上的問題。那我們學校所處理的,包含地方政府所處理的,依目前性平法所相關的規範,"},{"start":15562.802,"end":15578.387,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會"},{"start":15588.511,"end":15617.092,"text":"今天討論偏遠地區學校但偏遠地區學生的社會教育非常重要那你對於偏遠地區當然這個時空環境會一直變化那就必須要做動態的調整跟檢討那一個原則不變就是說對所謂的偏遠地區學校教育資源投入還是要持續不只持續而且要增加確保偏遠地區學生的社會教育權"},{"start":15617.893,"end":15646.499,"text":"就我的選區包括橋頭以北、橋頭、岡山、鹿竹、湖內、協定、永安、彌陀我想主席應該知道還有紫關我這八個區五十幾所中小學有哪些是被列為所謂偏遠學校?彭市長您知道嗎?彭市長您知道嗎?有幾所偏遠學校?站在你的第一頁裡面有名單會有提供給委員"},{"start":15648.797,"end":15677.241,"text":"教育及文化委員會提供提供給我,待會就提供給我,應該有現成的名單吧?這個學年的有。好,我要了解你們對這個所謂偏遠地區,我選區內的所謂符合偏遠地區學校定義的,到底投入的資源有沒有比一般學校還得更多?我希望能夠更多啦。來,確保之外還要更多的資源,讓這些所謂偏遠地區的學生的受教學能夠得到更多政府的照顧。"},{"start":15679.279,"end":15696.829,"text":"委員這個一定齁 因為這個偏遠條例底下 比如說我們每年總共大概26億投入在那一條 那是基本的喔 額外的 我想那個一生 那個深深用品版偏遠地區是一生一版欸我針對我的選區我去割會啦 那個委員怎麼會爭取 你學校都被照顧到很好欸不要說口惠時不至 這我要去檢討一下 因為都到縣地去看齁 都要跟我們反應"},{"start":15705.234,"end":15724.831,"text":"因為老師的留任也很重要會來找我們陳琦也有很多是老師老師因為有很多因素家庭因素或者他要結婚他要生小孩他必須要留在他的比較居住地所以他如果是比較偏遠的地方他調動一去就七、八年"},{"start":15725.672,"end":15728.195,"text":"對於偏遠地區老師的流動權益的確保也要多衡量確保學生受教訓之外也要避免老師的高度流動"},{"start":15741.392,"end":15748.333,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第11屆第12條條文修正草案案 案件及公費委員會第12屆第13屆第14屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第18屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第20屆第20屆第21屆第21屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22"},{"start":15770.918,"end":15785.064,"text":"公衛生是有旅行公務的義務除了公衛生之外如果真的想調動有很多特別的因素你們還是要特別考慮是是是好 謝謝好 謝謝兩位 謝謝接下來我們請蔡義雲委員蔡義雲委員蔡義雲委員麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員麥玉珍委員羅明財委員"},{"start":15789.185,"end":15818.405,"text":"羅明財委員羅明財委員好我們今天登記質詢的委員都已經發言完畢另外有黃珊珊委員劉建國委員提出書面質詢關於今天的會議我們做如下的決議報告及詢答完畢委員所提出的書面質詢或是相關的資料請列入記錄並刊登公報對委員質詢要求提供相關資料或未及答覆的部分請相關機關盡數以書面來作答覆偏遠地區學校教育發展條例相關"},{"start":15819.025,"end":15821.127,"text":"草案。」我們另定期繼續審查。報告委員會,今天的議程處理完畢,現在散會。謝謝各位。"},{"start":15851.735,"end":15862.359,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期"}]}},{"id":"15871","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15871","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685e1784ed6585ee25eb6918ac9a81339753be8d109af184be457667a92e55d0d4b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員王育敏等19人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【以上議案，如經復議則不予審查】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-02","start_time":"2024-05-02T08:31:01+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-14"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-02T13:20:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":17339,"委員發言時間":"08:31:01 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lapt��月二十五日星期四九時一分至十三十八分地點群賢樓八零一會議室出席委員陳昭芝等15人列席委員吳秉瑞等35人列席官員四月二十二日環境部部長薛富聖等相關人員四月二十四日衛生福利部部長薛瑞元等相關人員四月二十五日勞動部部長許明春等相關人員主席黃兆吉委員秀芳"},{"start":1785.268,"end":1797.495,"text":"四月二十二日報告事項,宣讀上次會議議事錄決定確定,邀請環境部部長、交通部、經濟部、內政部警政署就噪音管制與加速推動排氣管噪音認證進行專題報告並被質詢。"},{"start":1800.296,"end":1817.916,"text":"本日會議由環境部部長報告後,委員陳昭芝等22人提出質詢,軍經環境部部長、交通部公共運輸及監理司司長林福山、內政部警政署副署長李熙和及經濟部標準檢驗局副局長謝漢章及各相關主管等及其答覆。"},{"start":1818.436,"end":1840.97,"text":"委員黃仁、邱振鈞、廖先祥及陳冠廷所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報決定一、報告及詢答完畢二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於二中內書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定通過臨時提案六項4月24日邀請衛生福利部部長就家暴林榮忍"},{"start":1842.211,"end":1857.033,"text":"檢討一一二年家庭暴力防治法修正施行概況進行專題報告並被質詢,邀請衛生福利部部長、國家通訊傳播委員會、數位發展部、內政部警政署、法務部、文化部、金融監督管理委員會就。"},{"start":1858.376,"end":1887.459,"text":"非法網站創意私房案件提出兒少性影像防治具體作為檢討報告並就兒童及少年性剝削防治條例修正方向進行專題報告並被質詢本日會議專題報告綜合詢答由衛生福利部部長報告後委員陳昭芝等23人提出質詢軍警衛生福利部部長國家通訊傳播委員會網際網路傳播辦公室主任詹文旭法務部檢察司司長郭永發"},{"start":1888.28,"end":1904.065,"text":"內政部警政署警政委員甲勒及數位發展部資源管理司司長牛信仁、司法院少年及家事廳副廳長李坤林及金融監督管理委員會證券期貨局組長黃錫和及各相關主管等及其答覆。"},{"start":1904.565,"end":1922.66,"text":"委員楊耀、盧憲一、蘇清泉、鍾嘉斌及牛許廷所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報。決定一、報告及詢答完畢。二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者。請相關機關於二周內書面答覆。委員另要求期限者從其所定。通過臨時提案八項。"},{"start":1924.121,"end":1942.619,"text":""},{"start":1942.719,"end":1972.459,"text":"本日會議由勞動部部長報告後,委員陳昭芝等22人提出質詢。均經勞動部部長、援助民族委員會社會福利處處長羅赫祿及各相關主管等及其答覆,委員廖偉祥、楊耀、盧憲一、龔小林及羅志強所提書面質詢,列入紀錄刊登公報,決定一、報告及詢答完畢,二、委員質詢為其答覆或請補充資料者,請相關機關於二周內書面答覆,委員令要求期限者從其鎖定。"},{"start":1972.839,"end":1998.462,"text":"通過臨時提案以上宣讀完畢。請問委員會上次議事錄有錯誤或遺漏之處?好,沒有。議事錄確定本日會議議程委審查委員王育敏等19人委員蘇清泉等28人及國民黨黨團分別擬具全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案共計三案。現在介紹"},{"start":1999.281,"end":2025.682,"text":"出席在場的委員及列席官員蘇清泉委員陳金輝委員圖全吉委員陳昭芝委員王振旭委員林月琴委員介紹列席官員衛生福利部薛瑞元部長社會保險司劉育娟司長"},{"start":2027.352,"end":2047.907,"text":"法規會陳信成參事、中央健康保險署石崇良署長、行政院主計總署基金預算處黃厚吉專門委員、公務預算處廖玉琳專門委員、國家發展委員會人力發展處謝嘉怡署長、"},{"start":2051.684,"end":2059.99,"text":"好,現在我們請提案委員說明提案要旨每位委員兩分鐘我們請蘇清泉委員說明主席還有各位委員還有我們部長還有列席官員今天提出來的62條修正條文"},{"start":2079.023,"end":2091.532,"text":"說明如下:「全民健康保險財務收支不平衡的壓力,長期採用支出結控策略由全國的醫療機構來承擔,使得醫療給付低廉。雖然民眾滿意度高,但全台醫療機構"},{"start":2100.646,"end":2126.083,"text":"面對經營生存困境採行健保總額支出上限制超過額度就斷頭活動點值出現一點0.6到0.8不等的不合理打折給付導致整個醫療體系崩壞現行的制度面對高齡化的社會"},{"start":2127.441,"end":2136.785,"text":"通貨膨脹萬路起漲最近又漲電價我們的支出我們的負擔又增加3%長久下去將會導致臺灣整個醫療機構虧損倒閉醫療從業人員長期低薪出走心要嚴實進入臺灣市場醫學生不願選擇集中男等科的困境"},{"start":2153.806,"end":2177.017,"text":"我提出的第六十二條修正案總共有12位委員共同提案27位連署已經五十幾位、四十幾位將健保總額支出由支出的上限制改成支出的目標制我們外界都認為我們要廢掉總額沒有!我們是希望改成支出的目標制"},{"start":2181.094,"end":2207.015,"text":"讓醫療支出有合理固定點值至少0.95以上最好是一點預言0.95就已經很誇張了啦如果每點費用低於預言的時候由政府公務預算補儲至於行政單位要怎麼來修改其他的法規那行政單位就要去用功我們兩位總統三位總統的候選人在"},{"start":2209.115,"end":2234.673,"text":"繼選期間提出的政見希望能夠兌現尤其是賴副總統,現在要當總統了讓年度的支出目標更合理反映出當時社會人口結構及醫療科技發展的費用需求期盼政府部門協助與提供資源共同穩住臺灣健康保險及卓越的醫療照護系統提高醫療機構的韌性永續發展"},{"start":2239.806,"end":2246.23,"text":"我們國民黨黨版的宗旨也差不多是這樣但是希望最少0.95以上一併說明謝謝好 謝謝蘇清泉委員的說明那本席也有提出版本跟國民黨黨團是一致的就是不得低於0.95就一併說明那接下來我們請我補充介紹一下盧憲一委員也來到現場"},{"start":2270.832,"end":2272.853,"text":"接下來我們就請衛福部薛部長說明時間5分鐘。"},{"start":2289.228,"end":2304.118,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生今天是大院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會召開的第14次全體委員會議本部曾邀列席報告深感榮幸"},{"start":2305.138,"end":2321.971,"text":"今天僅就委員王育敏等18人、委員蘇清泉等27人以及國民黨黨團等分別擬具的《全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案》案等三案提出本部的意見,敬請各位委員不吝會議指教。"},{"start":2323.956,"end":2339.324,"text":"那有關各委員及國民黨黨團所提的全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案,保障點值每點不得低於0.95元或者保障點值1.1元。那本部的意見說明如下。"},{"start":2340.933,"end":2366.49,"text":"第一,相關的提案並沒有具體指明彌補資金的來源。這有違財政紀律法第五條第一項的規定,也就是由中央政府各級機關、立法委員所提法律案大幅增加政府稅出或減少稅入者應先具體指明彌補資金的來源。"},{"start":2367.29,"end":2387.663,"text":"第二、保障點指以現行的總額制度是抵觸的。法律規定互相衝突恐怕會無法執行。如果沒有適當的方法可以控制醫療機構的充量,補助的金額可能比我底下要講的這個金額更高。第三、"},{"start":2388.644,"end":2405.728,"text":"如果由政府額外編列預算來支應保障點值每點不得低於0.95元或保障點值1.1元依照本部中央健康保險署的推估需要增加財源大約是新台幣705億元及1155億元且未來要每年編列"},{"start":2412.91,"end":2418.365,"text":"那所需要的費用也會伴隨整個總額的增加隨著成長。"},{"start":2419.642,"end":2445.582,"text":"那又預算是涉及到其他教育、文化、經濟、國防、交通等政府總體預算資源分配,那以及主力總數的資金分配,所以不得要強加思考。第四,如果由既有的健保財源來支援,安全準備會在114年,也就是明年一次就用完。"},{"start":2446.743,"end":2474.358,"text":"現前費率5.17%將不足以支應所以113年底就必須要來也就是今年年底就必須要調整費率而且這個調整恐怕會超過健保法第18條所定的費率上限6%所以也必須要同時來修法調高費率的上限"},{"start":2475.592,"end":2498.96,"text":"adequ案子因為沒有跟各界去協商取得公司,恐怕未來會引起相當程度的民眾的反彈。這個必須要謹慎評估。那有關健保資源的合理配置,本部除了指免透過全民健保專款積極應用之外,也為了兼顧"},{"start":2500.02,"end":2520.306,"text":" bicyn保永續經營及醫療體系之穩定發展。那也會持續就健保收支重大議題進行檢討研議。所以我本案建議維持現行的條文。那本部呈大任各委員的指教及監督。在此敬致謝誠並請各委員繼續予以支持。以上報告。"},{"start":2524.861,"end":2553.1,"text":"好 謝謝部長的說明有關本次會議各項書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報現在開始詢答做以下宣告本會委員詢答時間6加2分鐘列席委員4分鐘10點30分截止發言登記委員如有書面質詢請於三會前提出預期不受理暫定10點30分休息5分鐘依往例審查法案不處理臨時提案現在我們請登記第一位陳昭芝委員發言"},{"start":2560.444,"end":2562.389,"text":"謝謝主席。有請部長。好,請薛部長。"},{"start":2570.305,"end":2570.405,"text":"國人好。"},{"start":2600.145,"end":2621.852,"text":""},{"start":2621.852,"end":2646.032,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":2646.152,"end":2671.979,"text":"adequ安全的上樁那台北慈濟如所言他就成為這個醫學中心然後這個雙核醫院在準醫學中心又很爭議的變成了一個醫學中心然後最後台大新竹醫院也加入進來總共你一口氣增加了在數目上增加了三家醫學中心您當時有人大概包括這個醫院管理協會的理事長說這個是不是為某個門系某個派系為他們這個授意"},{"start":2673.439,"end":2699.036,"text":""},{"start":2699.176,"end":2717.805,"text":" bicyn 部長參考部長我差點幫你升官也是有機會的每兩百萬人口應該設立一家醫學中心這是醫療網的規劃那臺大新竹升個位我覺得是合情合理不管他因為那個地方他人口增加了增加為到750增加的人數但是臺北區才750萬人"},{"start":2720.606,"end":2745.026,"text":""},{"start":2745.326,"end":2766.977,"text":" bicyn 醫學中心還不夠多嗎?我們在健保實施之前是很正常的一個醫療機構構造這個一地區醫院的大概600家那醫學中心十幾家等等那後來二十幾年後變成轉成這個怪模型我還問你說地區醫院少了將近腰斬變成300出頭這樣加速您覺得OK嗎?您當時回答我說還有門診啊還有這個還有門診啊但是"},{"start":2772.86,"end":2799.556,"text":"况々部長怎麼會認為門診跟地區醫院跟醫院是服務同一群病人嗎?醫院等同診所嗎?部長您的回答我就覺得很奇怪而且如果你要談診所我就要談社區藥局了。好那衛福部不顧醫療網計劃帶頭違規爭亂社醫學中心那我想請問部長如果未來中區南區出現跟一樣的理由什麼辨識度啊什麼有問題那你是不是也要一併都爭額入群呢?"},{"start":2800.276,"end":2800.736,"text":"我可以回答?"},{"start":2817.566,"end":2837.72,"text":"你還能回答什麼嗎?可以啊。如果你覺得我是對的,你就可以繼續回答我。如果你認為我是錯的,你就說我講的都是錯的。因為我本人就是從雙核醫院這邊介調過來。當然我如果卸下職務之後,一定必須要回去歸建。但是回去歸建也不見得就是在醫院。我祝福你回到,也但是在這個程度當中、爭議當中。"},{"start":2842.91,"end":2847.812,"text":"adequ一開始的時候兩百萬人一家醫學中心就是一個參考的標準,因為在當時的時候台北區就已經八家了。"},{"start":2866.47,"end":2880.146,"text":"但是你繼續加碼啊。好,部長不好意思,那我們繼續往後講好了。我大概知道你要談什麼,我了解。那只是要違法給付30年,部長有話講嗎?健保法第51條第4款規定只是要不屬於健保給付範圍啦。"},{"start":2881.528,"end":2898.564,"text":"那你也部長你不要再跟我說齁前人不守法我也跟著不守法這個是小混混講的話不要用部長級的高度跟我這樣回答沒有這部分就是要必須要漸進的不管任何的制度在調整的時候部長搞不好你沒有我熟喔我們來看看怎麼漸進法喔好來"},{"start":2899.565,"end":2919.889,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":2919.949,"end":2947.426,"text":"​​​那當時也做了一些配套措施我今天沒有辦法在這個地方分享因為我都有參與2014年3月健保署宣布依法不再給付這個指示要年底完成然後也是空頭支票2014年12月二代健保總檢討還有2015年全國藥品政策會議說非處方要退出保大不保小2017年健保會有提出喔說要回歸法條但是這些都是一場空那有人說指示要只不過二十億嘛一二十億嘛這個影響不大"},{"start":2949.667,"end":2967.807,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":2967.807,"end":2995.674,"text":"�"},{"start":2995.934,"end":3010.25,"text":"這是我們要的健保嗎?這符合這個社會保險的精神嗎?小病保得好,小病保得滿,大病大缺口。好,請部長思考。這個部分的話我不贊成。我們現在大病難道都沒有保嗎?"},{"start":3011.118,"end":3039.275,"text":""},{"start":3040.151,"end":3066.071,"text":"您大腦中的數字,要價差有多少?差不多在500億啦。但是總要價的話是2300億。欸,那個500億還是低估了啦齁?這不能隨便講低估就低估喔。是你要告訴我,我已經查過了。啊我就跟你講說500億啊。你要負責告訴我,其實實質上是啦。對,我就說500億啊。啊你如果不同意這個數字,你要提出來啊。"},{"start":3067.551,"end":3084.923,"text":""},{"start":3084.983,"end":3085.443,"text":"當然這個都有感性的空間啦。"},{"start":3113.046,"end":3140.691,"text":""},{"start":3140.691,"end":3158.541,"text":""},{"start":3158.922,"end":3187.296,"text":"adequ部長?這樣可以嗎?我想最重要的是整個要價的部分透明化、可預測。這個其實也都有。部長已經30年了,好逐步。30年每一個階段逐步的改啊。你不能說30年然後要跳到現在,然後要一次斷年式的。如果每個都做一點就不會是這樣的。當然啊,本來就是這樣,所以我們現在也在做啊。我沒有看到效果。好,謝謝部長。"},{"start":3189.784,"end":3213.561,"text":"好 謝謝接下來我們請陳金輝委員質詢主席各位委員各位官員大家早安我也想請薛部長好請薛部長委員好"},{"start":3219.806,"end":3244.045,"text":"議長早。今天其實是部長您即將離開這個衛福部之後呢我們也要回歸醫療也要回歸基層的醫療所以您今天的態度非常的重要許許多多您未來的下屬都在看因為他們現在是一個生死存亡的保衛戰為什麼今天醫界"},{"start":3245.026,"end":3275.026,"text":""},{"start":3275.126,"end":3280.767,"text":"你是不希望?現在沒有說哪一家的薪水是少一點議員了。"},{"start":3282.159,"end":3308.832,"text":"netesa 每一家都是1.1元不是嗎?這過去8年齁醫護人員真的很久沒有走上街頭了他們為什麼走上街頭好現在所有的急診喔大家躺在那邊他會告訴你說你今天就開day surgery因為我們上面沒有病床我已經一大堆朋友他今天被開我原本應該知道day surgery的話有他的條件不是每一個病都可以day surgery啊"},{"start":3309.462,"end":3331.374,"text":"�"},{"start":3331.834,"end":3353.794,"text":"這個是蔡英文總統八年前醫療服務講的喔他說健保給各位點值一直在打折我們很感謝醫師為守護國人健康所付出的犧牲未來我們也願意來檢討健保支付標準表你剛有講我們一直在改好這八年點值從"},{"start":3355.075,"end":3368.264,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：事由．立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15會期社會"},{"start":3381.152,"end":3403.49,"text":""},{"start":3404.25,"end":3418.959,"text":"полне度。滿意度。你看得出醫療品質嗎?我們過去每年在爭取參加WHA今年也要去。WHA的精神是什麼?是促進健康。結果我們每一年齁這個所有的指標結結敗退"},{"start":3421.22,"end":3446.203,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":3446.874,"end":3448.035,"text":"我可以不可以就這個問題回答。好。"},{"start":3465.069,"end":3466.87,"text":"我把去年所有的競選影片都看完了。其他兩黨的總統候選人提出任何醫療相關的政見,你都很有意見。"},{"start":3486.243,"end":3486.343,"text":"我剛為報告﹗"},{"start":3504.514,"end":3506.075,"text":"我沒有批評我是說我做不到"},{"start":3533.965,"end":3542.298,"text":" bicyn 蘇清泉等28人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案 案 。 bicyn 蘇清泉等28人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案 案 。 bicyn 蘇清泉等28人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案 案 。"},{"start":3547.594,"end":3566.563,"text":"​​我只能就我職責之內去做這一個回答所以您的書面報告是不是應該要具體寫出這個是有處理方法因為拼起來你是覺得做得到但是你今天書面報告一夜半我書面報告講的是如果要這樣做可能那些困難就必須要去排除"},{"start":3567.91,"end":3581.237,"text":"​​​​​​"},{"start":3581.752,"end":3592.598,"text":"bedingt consider the source of the source of the source of the source of the source of the source of the source of the"},{"start":3608.049,"end":3612.585,"text":"我跟委員報告如果我考慮到薪資的部分的話我根本不會來這裡"},{"start":3614.809,"end":3639.03,"text":"謝謝你其實我目前呢看到基層很多人都很有愛心你願意做護理的人真的很有愛心但是你的愛心沒有辦法撐一輩子這個世界上有什麼工作對所以制度上必須要去做調整沒有錯這個是的確要去做改革但是是否就是這樣一點一元下去的話那個連改革的空間都沒有那你覺得你可以做到一點幾元嗎"},{"start":3640.651,"end":3659.116,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。案。」議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案。案。」議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案。案。」議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條條文修正草案。案。」議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條條文�"},{"start":3665.265,"end":3686.613,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":3686.613,"end":3702.705,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":3702.705,"end":3720.162,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":3721.363,"end":3748.72,"text":"�所以其實只要你願意做從各方面都可以改革你應該要具體的寫到你的書面報告裡面啊你從八年前的健康政策委員並沒有今天我們沒有請主席總書上來做一個口頭報告主席總書他有他的意見主席總書如果錢沒有下來的話或者沒有這個財源的話對不起"},{"start":3749.36,"end":3775.435,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":3775.555,"end":3795.423,"text":"adequ大前提是不可能的因為新藥新的技術新的醫療技術就是不斷的在進步而這些人當然會越活越長慢性病也會越來越多所以你的總和的成長率根本不足以應付你這個預設的全國的醫療資源支出是不會有任何改變你這個"},{"start":3796.243,"end":3797.044,"text":" bicyn 蘇清泉等19人擬具"},{"start":3820.486,"end":3843.336,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":3843.336,"end":3859.667,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":3860.874,"end":3876.364,"text":"來清德總統啦。所以你們還是要想個辦法定期一定要把點值達到一點議員,這就是他提出來的目標。委員剛剛說要問盧縣議委員,你問一下盧縣議委員他過去在基層的時候,他的收入怎麼樣?私底下問問看。謝謝你關心盧縣議委員,謝謝部長,謝謝。好,謝謝。"},{"start":3888.561,"end":3916.998,"text":"待會那個主席處也可以上來說明,看起來是主席處也不支持。來我們請林月琴委員。好,有請部長。好,請部長。部長早,辛苦了。"},{"start":3917.776,"end":3942.718,"text":"那部長針對我們的那個健保的保費費率大概在民國99年第一次調漲之後最近一次調漲是110年所以想請問部長健保從106年就開始赤字今年要動之我們的調節非預期風險跟其他非預期政策改變所需經費要8億的預算"},{"start":3946,"end":3955.954,"text":"厲注在全民健保基金240億元才不調漲,可是以預算的去填補健保赤字是最好的方法嗎?"},{"start":3957.508,"end":3977.653,"text":"用這個預算去填補這個赤字的話當然不是一個好的方法不過之前的話我們在去年做這個貶值的這個等於是補足是009這樣子的一個機制是真的是COVID之後"},{"start":3978.413,"end":4001.028,"text":" bicyn 本來是公務預算在支應的這些COVID的醫療費用轉移到健保去,所以會產生這個衝擊,那這個部分的話是有原因的。可是據我所知,事實上現在很多項目也都健保都要去做支付,不過如果這樣的預算我比較擔心,因為我估計"},{"start":4002.09,"end":4029.497,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．立法院第14次全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．立法院第14次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第17次全民健康保險法第18次全民健康保險法第19次全民健康保險法第20次全民健康保險法第21次全民健康保險法第22次全民健康保險法第23次全民健康保險法第24次全民健康保險法第25次全民健康保險法第26次全民健康保險法第27次全民健康保險法第28次全民健康"},{"start":4031.799,"end":4056.197,"text":"這個部分的話是這樣子啊,如果以健保本身來講的話,因為它是保費的結構,那如果不去特別去談到這個公務預算的話,那基本上不會排擠到社府的預算。但是如果說必須要公務預算進來的話,那當然會有可能有排擠的這個效果。不過以去年跟今年,240億的公務預算抑制是去年,那今年是210億。"},{"start":4057.918,"end":4083.113,"text":"這樣的進來的他的這個範圍他的規模大概還不至於還不至於但是如果說以今天的提案的那一個的話那是一年700億或者是1150億那個就會有影響所以儘管112年編列113年的預算避掉了一些預算排擠的效應如果明年的預算要在今年編列的話"},{"start":4083.865,"end":4090.021,"text":" bicyn 要怎麼去避免?因為今天要談的是62條,就是我們的排擠社會預算的一些效應。"},{"start":4092.628,"end":4110.865,"text":"這個部分的話當然就是會等下委員也可以問主席總署,但是預算編列大概是這樣子。我們現在就要編概算了,明年的概算。如果說這個法通過的話,如果它是通過的是1.1億元,那我們明年就要編1,150億的公務預算進來。"},{"start":4114.338,"end":4129.915,"text":"所以這就是我很擔心,如果編到這樣的話,會不會排擠到我們很關心的社會福利預算?當然最後是主席總署這邊可能會有更詳細的一個說明。因為底層的社會問題要解決,真的要靠經費預算。"},{"start":4132.297,"end":4132.617,"text":" bicyn M."},{"start":4162.417,"end":4186.948,"text":" bicyn 蘇的計算那病人如果住院費的話一人一天的話是7900點原則上是1點的價格是1元的那過去當然有一些浮動0.6到0.8那後來是保證去年政府是宣誓每一點最低的值是要0.9元差了預算去補那那個補就已經會花掉一些公務預算那如果"},{"start":4187.944,"end":4207.773,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":4208.106,"end":4220.432,"text":" bicyn 美典事實上是0.95元或是還是1元的話都將破壞現行壓縮每點價格的彈性所造成的效果就是天花板就要被掀開來"},{"start":4221.857,"end":4250.396,"text":"我理解的應該沒有錯吧所以就想問這個修法的提議去年度底就有委員提出來可是衛福部表示如果每點0.9條高到1元的話那今年至少要增加113年就要增加到650億元那今天衛福部提出明年如果要的話那會增加到1155億的健保支出就會一直在累加上去"},{"start":4251.22,"end":4279.497,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":4281.186,"end":4297.483,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":4297.671,"end":4323.998,"text":"netesi 如果我賺個錢一百塊的話那到底我要承擔到多少的成本?就是說如果是零點九五的話那可能就是算起來那明年可能就要漲保費那漲的幅度可能就是到了上限百分之六那如果是一點億元的話那可能就連六都不夠"},{"start":4325.418,"end":4354.462,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":4354.824,"end":4379.749,"text":"因為對他們來講那的確剛剛前面委員有提到可是所以就想問醫事團體這樣提可是事實上相對的也有其他的團體像醫療改革跟健保監督團體表示反對所以如果貿然打破天花板的話民眾的這個保費勢必要翻漲的話那過去有沒有進行先去做溝通"},{"start":4381.15,"end":4395.823,"text":"我跟委員報告,這裡面還有兩個小細節,如果說保障一點議員的話,有兩個小細節會造成以後的風險會越來越高。第一個就是支付標準要不要調。"},{"start":4397.125,"end":4422.653,"text":"netesure 標準就我做這樣服務的話那調支付標準就是單價提高如果1.1元的話單每一個你的服務量都沒有變但是支付標準一提高的話那就會更加提高但是現在支付標準還是存在了一些不合理或者是說需要去做調整比方說兒科的支付標準應該要增加那這個部分的話如果說"},{"start":4424.346,"end":4448.455,"text":"一點議員的話,我們一千一百億就丟進去了之後的話,這個支付標準幾乎就不要動了。不太可能還有足夠的錢再來調整這個。所以部長應該也同意,應該要聽聽其他人的聲音,不是只有一單一的,否則的話也會造成,就像我剛剛擔憂的,社福團體或者是民眾他們的壓迫感,甚至有些人本來就健保費繳不出來的話,"},{"start":4449.475,"end":4451.136,"text":"接下來我們請黃秀芳委員進行質詢。謝謝主席,我們請部長。好,請薛部長。"},{"start":4480.748,"end":4487.271,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．事由、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．事由、"},{"start":4503.7,"end":4504.681,"text":" bicylson Hsieh﹗"},{"start":4529.804,"end":4549.224,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":4549.744,"end":4568.634,"text":"我基本上這在剛剛恐龍報告的時候也已經提到過了,那因為如果說一點一元的話補到這樣的程度的話,我們大概一年就是公務預算就要用掉一千一百多億,那這只是用現在的量去估計而已,但是"},{"start":4569.394,"end":4569.654,"text":" bicylman"},{"start":4585.384,"end":4606.408,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":4606.408,"end":4636.374,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":4636.664,"end":4659.104,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":4659.184,"end":4679.938,"text":"essee 方法嘛。放大回推啦、那個核三啦、另外就是斷頭啦等等這些。這個依據要能夠接受。要不然的話這個是變成是一個沒有指定的。可是這樣會變成說有的就是剛量如果沒辦法控制的話可能會變成我做越多然後被砍的越多。"},{"start":4680.638,"end":4681.058,"text":"neteso"},{"start":4697.924,"end":4698.605,"text":" bicylman"},{"start":4713.625,"end":4715.968,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":4733.626,"end":4754.65,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":4754.65,"end":4770.384,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":4770.657,"end":4789.677,"text":"disciplinary目前健保的資訊系統裡面大概都可以看得到啦。過去的這些檢查或者是過去所開的藥。所以要重複的話其實機會不大啦。除非就是說這個醫師真的是很懶他都沒有去check。"},{"start":4790.277,"end":4790.857,"text":" bicyn P."},{"start":4812.249,"end":4818.711,"text":" bicyn 其實我碰到好幾個就是說有的民眾他可能到醫院或到診所那他拿藥他的藥不一定會吃啦齁"},{"start":4833.114,"end":4852.961,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":4852.961,"end":4876.476,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":4877.239,"end":4895.081,"text":"這些剛剛委員提到的這些都是我們要做的,我們要努力的方向,也許現在沒有辦法做到盡善盡美,但是必須要持續的去推動。但是我沒有辦法說,只要做了這一個的話,那就可以確保一點一點,這我沒有辦法說。"},{"start":4895.942,"end":4912.309,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次"},{"start":4920.393,"end":4920.654,"text":" bicyn 沈 沈"},{"start":4935.717,"end":4964.204,"text":" bicyn 可能會跟他講說健保會不好啦可能這個自費的這個醫材會比較好或者是這個藥可能是這個健保的不好可能會有一些副作用那自費的可能會比較好那類似這樣的一個狀況啦其實當然就是說醫院或者是醫療器材他隨著這個時間可能會有更好的這個藥或者是更先進的這個醫療的方式那當然都是我們樂見的那當然是有健保的話"},{"start":4964.964,"end":4968.386,"text":"bedingt 這裡面可能會有一個地方是有誤會的。"},{"start":4982.513,"end":5009.756,"text":"閱外收入當然就是停車場、美食街那個是沒有錯是閱外收入但是醫療本業的部分的話剛剛委員提到說自費事實上在醫院的財報裡面它有一個健保收入收入裡面閱外收入之外的話就是醫務收入醫務收入分健保跟非健保非健保不等於是自費因為如果是從公務預算裡面提出來一些計畫"},{"start":5010.737,"end":5031.794,"text":" bicyn 或是說像那個COVID中間疫情期間的時候我們這個醫療費用是有公務預算補助的它都會列入到這一個非健保的收入這個部分的話其實也不小所以並不是那些非健保收入都是屬於自費的收入"},{"start":5031.974,"end":5034.876,"text":"我相信就是說健保是需要改革的。目前的總和預算制度也存在了一些缺點。"},{"start":5058.493,"end":5081.019,"text":" bicyn 但是要怎麼樣改,可能不是只有單修這個條文就能夠處理的。單修這個條文沒有其他的配套的話,可能會造成那個風險的控管會更加厲害。搞不好健保三年之後就倒了。這樣是我們需要的嗎?健保是台灣一個非常珍貴的一個資產。"},{"start":5083.88,"end":5098.871,"text":"讓這個民眾的安全,不管是主觀的安全感或事實上的在經濟上面不會因病而病。這樣子的一個社會安全的自治,我們覺得說應該大家要珍惜。"},{"start":5099.611,"end":5102.832,"text":"essee to cherish this asset."},{"start":5124.636,"end":5138.239,"text":"好,我們希望說下禮拜的公聽會可以廣聽各界的這個意見。好,謝謝。好,接下來請我們王育敏委員。好,謝謝主席。我們是不是請薛部長,還有我們主計處的黃專門委員。"},{"start":5153.254,"end":5178.511,"text":"好,請問薛部長以及主席處的還有健保署的施署長也一起上來。好,施署長。好,部長我先請教您一個問題。賴清德總統他提出他的競選政見就是說最高目標這個健保點子可以用1.1為目標。這件事情他有徵詢過您的意見嗎?當他提出這個政見的時候相關團隊有徵詢過您的意見嗎?"},{"start":5180.622,"end":5201.434,"text":"在過去我們並沒有對這一點受到徵詢,不過我想委員這個可能要做一點挑戰,它不是一點意願,而是健保點子,一點意願。一點意願,健保點子,一點意願。好。對。它沒有徵詢過你的意見嗎?沒有。所以是競選團隊提出來的。是。所以難怪您在"},{"start":5202.436,"end":5228.652,"text":"剛剛的答詢之間好像是完全否定這項政見,你覺得是?我沒有否定,我是說在我的任內我沒有辦法去支持。我剛剛有聽出來你的意思,我要請主席總署,那可能是未來邱財遠部長要去承擔的。來,這個主席總署,剛剛其實我一直聽到部長說要請主席總署來說明,看起來你們是很不支持,那我請教你同樣的問題,賴清德準總統,"},{"start":5231.614,"end":5238.735,"text":" incarcerate 總統的政見。那我就請教你,他要來當我們總統了。那他要落實他的政見。那你們主席總書會支持這個未來準總統的這樣的一個政見嗎?"},{"start":5257.868,"end":5277.087,"text":"是,委員可不可以讓我說明一下,因為基本上目前這個案子是大院提的嘛,那依我們的預算法的規定。你先不用講這部分,我只問你,未來總統如果他要去落實他的政見,他要去力推健保點子要調高,那你們主計總署會配合嗎?"},{"start":5278.029,"end":5306.076,"text":" bicyn 應該是說要怎麼落實這個政見其實不一定是由公益算來處理那當然我們目前是健保總額制度原則上如果有健保有需求那當然是從總額的額度那是看是提高我只問你嘛主席總書如果總統他說他政見就是要推你們當然是配合啊沒有第二句話啊不是嗎我就問你現在台電的財務虧損一千億的補貼就過去了有沒有主席總書有沒有答應"},{"start":5308.24,"end":5335.382,"text":"有啊 對不對就是政策決定你有沒有錢嘛就是這樣子啊整個國家的預算的大餅是看這個錢要放在哪裡嘛要不然台建的虧損為什麼要由這個政府你主計總署要答應一千億就要過去合理嗎照再來講是補貼他比較合理還是在補貼健保健保還照顧全國的所有的民眾欸那你的政策標準在哪裡主計總署的給錢的標準在哪裡"},{"start":5337.622,"end":5338.642,"text":" bicyn 沈 沈 沈 沈 沈"},{"start":5365.616,"end":5367.136,"text":"ympt."},{"start":5367.136,"end":5380.581,"text":"我聽明白你的意思了。但是這件事情不是在於政府有沒有錢的問題,很多時候都是來自於更高層,他決定我這筆錢要往哪個方向去。"},{"start":5383.442,"end":5398.927,"text":" bicyn 也不是說用了這筆錢就會影響到社會福利預算。我不同意這樣的一個看法。是政府有錢,如果他補貼台電也是可以。老保基金虧損,他不做制度的改革,他一直用撥補。1200億也有錢啊。就只有你健保沒有錢。你健保要個這個幾百億就沒有錢。"},{"start":5403.988,"end":5423.753,"text":" bicyn- 這是你國家整體的資源往哪邊擺放的問題。當然我也同意制度的改革要有合理,要合理。所以這一件事情,這個兩位都從一屆來喔。這一件事情為什麼一屆反彈聲音這麼大?你光去看這個健保點子,這個圖你來看,這樣子上上下下。"},{"start":5424.633,"end":5445.333,"text":"�"},{"start":5445.333,"end":5460.435,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":5460.575,"end":5480.238,"text":"但是請記得不要馬而好又要馬而不吃草。天底下沒有這樣的事情。我們需要所有的醫療人員用最專業的醫療人員要他們在第一線的崗位上面守護國人的健康跟安全。但是另外一方面我們應該要提供給他合理"},{"start":5480.899,"end":5488.223,"text":" bicyn 全的一個醫療保障的制度我覺得這個是我們應該要去追求的所以合理的改革是我們應該要去討論的而不是用這樣子的方式說因為這樣子這個我們健保可能會倒我覺得也不要用這樣子的話語而是應該指出來說我們如果要這樣調的話我所有搭配的制度我很遺憾可能部長你要離開了所以沒有提出你完整的報告"},{"start":5508.114,"end":5534.633,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":5534.753,"end":5553.687,"text":"�二、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案﹖而接下來才是討論健保費要不要調漲的問題。我覺得談事情應該是要這樣子談。所以這件事情我覺得沒有什麼是非對錯的問題,而是遇到問題了。就是醫界有反應,我們來共同解決。那解決的方案作為衛福部應該提出你們認為可行的幾個方案,這樣來討論比較容易。"},{"start":5564.485,"end":5573.179,"text":"你怎麼確定一次性?他現在...他並沒有講說每年,但是如果這一個案子下去的話,如果通過的話,就是每年。"},{"start":5574.572,"end":5600.432,"text":"那你認為我們政府財政做不到嗎?我們現在每一年我們多出來的稅有多少你知道嗎?幾千億欸!對,那個是最近這幾年,因為我們的經濟情況好。已經超徵稅額都是幾千億欸!那為什麼不能優先來改善這部分呢?那個如果是只有一次性的,那可能就是問題會比較小。但是這個健保的這一個六十二條的修正如果過的話是每年。"},{"start":5601.303,"end":5607.118,"text":"是每年而且這個規模會每年就越來越大。你可以搭配你其他的方案進來啊。"},{"start":5608.857,"end":5627.55,"text":"你懂我意思嗎?為什麼沒有其他的方案,你剛剛會講,然後講到這個,所以我覺得你好像是完全反對這樣的調整。沒有,我只是提出警告,我之前也報告過嘛,我剩下17天。我知道,我知道。我沒有辦法去預測。因為賴總統也沒有先來徵詢你的意見,然後他就這樣子丟出來了,所以你提出這樣的一個警告。"},{"start":5633.954,"end":5651.6,"text":" bicyn 但是我覺得這個方案是一屆已經反映多次而且一直在反映那你看看我們的健保點子這樣子一直浮動式的坦白講也有它不合理的地方所以其實應該是要好好的來討論到底怎麼樣來檢討我們有一個共識全民健保很好這是臺灣的驕傲但是全民健保也不能建構在壓榨第一線"},{"start":5663.544,"end":5676.177,"text":" disadvant二、委員王育敏等19人擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案»案。stanbul一、委員王育敏等19人擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案»案。stanbul一、委員王育敏等19人擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案»案。stanbul一、委員王育敏等19人擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案»案。stanbul一、委員王育敏等19人擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條條文修正草案»案。stanbul一、委員王育敏等19人擬具 «全"},{"start":5687.108,"end":5714.104,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":5715.224,"end":5737.834,"text":" bicyn 蘇 先討論民眾的服務到哪個範圍,然後再回過頭來籌措財源。在上週的健康台灣論壇裡面,大家也提出了健保的多元財源的一些方案,我們也都會一個一個很仔細地來研究,來設法為健保創造更多的財源。好,您會繼續擔任署長吧?"},{"start":5740.476,"end":5740.896,"text":"二、國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":5771.462,"end":5793.166,"text":"好,謝謝。那我們請這個邱正軍委員咨詢。好,主席好。我們還是有請我們薛部長。好,請薛部長。"},{"start":5798.649,"end":5823.142,"text":"主席,您本身也是醫生。剛剛談論了很多次。目前健保點值低於0.9的狀況,您認為這是正常的嗎?目前平均點值並沒有低於0.9。那現在呢?現在是多少?當然要看結算,但是應該是在0.9以上目前。"},{"start":5824.309,"end":5848.899,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":5848.985,"end":5865.469,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":5866.365,"end":5868.267,"text":"hington 原來是新冠是第五級"},{"start":5885.942,"end":5911.536,"text":"adequ五類的傳染病。那因為到後來的話,它的致病率以及它的致重症率是降低的。所以我們就把它調為四級。這全世界都是這樣子。我雖然不在醫界啦,但是也有在醫界的同事跟朋友,包括很多醫療團體,他們對於今天要審的修改案都非常的支持。你個人的看法呢?"},{"start":5913.232,"end":5936.674,"text":"當然以各種不同的團體來看一屆一定是支持這個是沒話講因為他可以讓他的收入增加但是他的影響這必須要好好去做討論選前你看一下我們看一下圖你說過健保點子一元一點草野同意就沒有難度這句話的意思是不是表示認同"},{"start":5937.967,"end":5940.109,"text":" bicyn 建保典籍的部分有沒有修改的部分?"},{"start":5940.109,"end":5944.053,"text":"bicyn 建保典籍的部分有沒有修改的部分?"},{"start":5944.053,"end":5947.636,"text":"bicyn 建保典籍的部分有沒有修改的部分?"},{"start":5959.767,"end":5967.674,"text":" incarcerator 還有一個意思就是說反對的人覺得醫護就該犧牲奉獻你們都喜歡說有政府勞保就不會倒現在就變成有政府健保就不會倒"},{"start":5983.069,"end":5999.435,"text":"你們繼續壓榨醫護,先倒的是醫院齁,倒楣的就是全台灣人。這個不會是這個樣子啦,這樣太過簡化的說法。那我再問你齁,我們賴總統當選人有說過什麼,你有印象嗎?呃,他說過的東西沒有說過。你放,我們看一下影片。"},{"start":6005.464,"end":6008.986,"text":"這是本人吧?這是本人吧?應該不是AI啦?"},{"start":6023.922,"end":6044.753,"text":"議長,剛剛那個是本人吧?應該不是AI做的吧?那是真的有說過還是詐騙?應該是有說過。所以賴清德是總統候選人的時候,到處去講健保點數要保固在0.9以上,目標要到1.1元。那當時衛福部也配合啊,不是嗎?"},{"start":6045.495,"end":6050.299,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6064.189,"end":6084.574,"text":"我已經剛剛有提到過,我在這17天之內的話,給我能夠掌握的資源,就是我沒有辦法去執行這個...不是,就是說當時你不知道,部長你能不能留任,現在知道了520你沒有辦法留任之後,你就是故意要找...不是故意喔,這不是故意,這本來就是權責。新的部長...那你當時為什麼不講呢?"},{"start":6086.538,"end":6112.368,"text":"為什麼當時總統府選人開這種政見的時候你們自己不提出來?你不糾正對不對?我沒有被問到我怎麼可能會去做這種事。這不就跟當這個我們選後長、調長店家一樣嗎?通通都是選票的考量。通通都是為了選舉。不是啊,我跟委員報告啦齁。今天如果是我主這個其證的話我當然可以來想辦法還是我請教部長齁就是說"},{"start":6113.679,"end":6137.077,"text":"現在你們提出的意見是新政府的意見?就是選後不算了嗎?沒有沒有,就是我們現在的意見,衛福部的意見,我們現在。現在,所以跟以後沒有關係?新政府也許他有新的財源能夠去規劃出來。我們就今天5月2號行政院要通過追加預算,撥補台電1000億,這個資金來源有沒有明確?"},{"start":6142.25,"end":6149.236,"text":" bicyn 現在健保點數補到我們講的0.9元,是不是也要用公務預算?為什麼臺電就可以用公務預算,我們健保的就要調漲我們的健保費?"},{"start":6149.236,"end":6150.677,"text":"bicyn 這個意思是這樣子。"},{"start":6169.215,"end":6183.849,"text":"netesle 因為有這個稅計剩餘所以他給他一千億做這個調查健保的話如果按照今天的法案通過的話是每年要那就必須要看政府是不是每年都有那麼多的稅計剩餘這個不確定"},{"start":6187.671,"end":6199.889,"text":"�"},{"start":6200.981,"end":6216.852,"text":" bicyn 您的報告裡傳遞的訊息就是醫護就該犧牲奉獻來表達,來達成你們的政治目的嗎?不是,這必須要各種的配套,而不是單單用條文去調整就可以做得到的。"},{"start":6223.109,"end":6229.392,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案﹖一、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":6239.991,"end":6268.302,"text":""},{"start":6268.402,"end":6279.533,"text":"你們報告說持續健保收支進行檢討研議本席也相信你們有研議現在就請你告訴大家你們對於針對健保點數你們研議的怎麼樣"},{"start":6282.332,"end":6307.552,"text":"這也是根本包括就今天的報告裡面,如果是0.9億的話,我們每年就公務預算必須要支出700億,如果是1.1億的話就要1151億。好啦,我是希望啦,你們在做決定的時候一定要多方的考慮,好不好?當然,我也希望說這個法要通過要多方的考慮。好啦,謝謝部長。"},{"start":6310.495,"end":6331.281,"text":"好,謝謝邱委員。那等一下廖偉祥委員質詢結束後,我們休息五分鐘。現在請圖全集委員質詢。好,謝謝主席。那請我們薛部長。好,請薛部長。"},{"start":6336.22,"end":6353.451,"text":"委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利"},{"start":6364.298,"end":6382.863,"text":" lapt��四月三十號國務院的亞太助理國務卿康達也再次表達為美國發聲說希望支持台灣以觀察員的身份來參加。那2023年也有22個國家支持美國的立場。那他們也預計今年"},{"start":6383.443,"end":6412.065,"text":"netesure我們台灣以觀察員身份參加世界衛生大會的這個國家的數也會增加我們看得到從2018年一直到2024年美國一直都是看起來都從官方來表態很支持台灣來參加WHA那我也想請問一下我們部長對於美國支持這部分部長是不是覺得美國一直以來都是真的也都是非常支持我們參加WHA"},{"start":6413.526,"end":6433.363,"text":"這是沒有錯,美國一直以來都是支持我們來參加WHA,作為世界衛生組織裡面有意義參與的一員。這是美國從過去官方的態度都顯現出來,我們對這一點非常感謝。"},{"start":6434.264,"end":6463.006,"text":"那實際上很多的這一些我們為什麼這幾年來那受到世界各方的支持是越來越大裡面相同國家越來越多那在WHA的大會裡面也持續的在我們發聲那這個當然我們在對各方面的進行了一些努力那也是我們的一些成果雖然就是說"},{"start":6463.626,"end":6483.319,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":6484.56,"end":6511.943,"text":"從2019年我們看到從2019年我們很多的友邦國家一直到2023年每年都很多的友邦國家來提案來支持我們來參加WHA那在WHA裡面一百九十幾個會員國幾乎都是美國的邦交國那當然我們也希望美國盡量多出一點力讓我們能夠來參加WHA可是我們不了解就是說"},{"start":6512.743,"end":6539.838,"text":"為什麼這麼多提案裡面美國沒有一次提案是支持我們的那這一部分部長可以幫我們說明嗎?這部分的話通常都是我們又藉由友邦來做提案大概是這樣那在大會裡面有時候美國也會跟其他裡面上線國家在這邊在大會裡面有一些發言來支持我們但是提案的部分都是透過友邦"},{"start":6540.838,"end":6554.091,"text":"對那可不可以請部長為我們說明那難道美國他跟著這些友邦國家如果他來提案的話我覺得這力量會更強大還是有什麼因素他沒有辦法跟著友邦國家提案支持我們"},{"start":6555.295,"end":6579.207,"text":"這當然是有必須要去做整體外交的一些考量那美國也不會說這跟台灣的關係只有在支持WHA的這一個部分那還有許多的合作的關係在進行當中那整體的考量的話那也許就是說他們美國的政府方面的話的一個策略"},{"start":6580.526,"end":6589.988,"text":"那如果美國力挺我們用中華台北去參加WHA的話,那你覺得我們用中華台北的名義參加這是去還是不去?"},{"start":6591.141,"end":6594.505,"text":"所以如果以中華台北去,部長也覺得是可以的沒有矮化的問題吧?"},{"start":6612.665,"end":6614.887,"text":"三、國民黨黨團擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":6628.319,"end":6654.104,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":6659.197,"end":6676.617,"text":"市長我請問一下因為這跟我們那個部桃我們新屋分院擴建有關係因為我們次長好像從2020年沒有我們署長是2020年的時候是擔任次長那我記得當初好像對這個部桃新屋分院擴建這個計畫次長有瞭解嗎?"},{"start":6680.965,"end":6708.755,"text":"時間有點久。再請委員提醒一下。因為據我們瞭解你在109年的時候就有立委詢問到關於部桃新屋分院擴建的問題。那你也回答說則無旁貸。那所以我一直想瞭解說我們署長那時候擔任是次長。從2020年你一直擔任到2023年。那針對這部桃新屋分院擴建這到底有沒有計畫?到底有沒有進行?到底有沒有進度?"},{"start":6710.598,"end":6711.72,"text":"這個是計畫是有通過啦。"},{"start":6718.337,"end":6746.211,"text":" bicyn Kwan- 預算是從部桃本身的基金預算去支援所以這個經費預算已經有編列出來嗎?我的印象中是有對,因為這個我們希望來爭取一下因為我一直在講我們桃園這個醫療資源真的非常的匱乏桃園是現在兩百三十幾萬人口唯一的醫學中心就是在我們"},{"start":6746.971,"end":6767.056,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":6767.396,"end":6796.345,"text":"對,因為沿海的部分真的看起來真的沒有連這個地區型的醫院都沒有你急診病房都看不到所以我們對這部桃新屋分院這個擴建大家都非常的重視而且我一直在重申我們蔡總統在2019年的時候就告訴我們民眾說衛福部已經通過這個案子然後對2023年我們的那時候的副總統也是我們的準總統賴清德也一直說"},{"start":6797.125,"end":6816.69,"text":" bicyn 將要擴建這個部桃新屋分院第二醫療大樓所以我一直不瞭解說從2023年那時候我們的時署長當時的次長對這個案子都說已經責無旁貸要進行到現在2024年我可不可以請部長幫我們說明一下這到底進行到哪裡"},{"start":6820.011,"end":6837.265,"text":"這個是進度上面可能有一點落後,因為其實預算都已經有了,現在就是要做這個計畫書的一個審查。詳細的情形,因為今天依依福惠沒有派人過來,所以"},{"start":6840.425,"end":6869.137,"text":"所以我們確定這個案子已經有預算有在進行了嗎?對,可能就是計畫書的審查的這個部分的話是不是還有哪一些地方必須要做補?我想明天是不是我請醫護會的同仁、大委員、辦公室去跟你們做補?好,這部分也感謝部長,因為我們希望這個政策要有延續性,包含建設也是一樣。雖然我們部長在520即將要卸任,但是像我們石署長本身也是事務官,"},{"start":6869.737,"end":6870.017,"text":"接下來我們請廖偉祥委員質詢。"},{"start":6915.371,"end":6925.938,"text":"謝主席,有請我們薛部長。好,請薛部長。部長你好。部長,這個"},{"start":6928.456,"end":6951.442,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":6952.23,"end":6980.927,"text":"adequ要場研發的新冠疫苗接種後在少數的情況下會導致接種者出現血栓或血小板低下症候群並且也已經有疫苗的這個受害者提出集體訴訟想要請教部長雖然我國目前已經有預防接種的受害救濟的程序那國內因為AZ疫苗而有負重的民眾可不可以去這個國外參加集體訴訟或者是受害者自己組織起來去國外提起跨海的訴訟"},{"start":6982.815,"end":7006.352,"text":"如果自行組織起來去參加國外的集體訴訟我想這個在法律上並沒有說不可以只是說我們需不需要給他做什麼樣的一個資源的確如果說這個跨國訴訟其實是非常成本非常高而且是曠日廢時的"},{"start":7007.193,"end":7019.411,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":7019.571,"end":7040.641,"text":"adequa做這個幫忙所以你們會站在這個受害者的立場給予他們最大的幫忙對不對如果是有這樣子對於國內的這種接種心但是但是這裡面有一個問題必須要特別要去做處理就雖然AZ可能他自己也承認有這種風險在"},{"start":7042.222,"end":7066.088,"text":"但是...部長沒關係我沒有要問這麼細我只想問說我們衛福部的立場是什麼是不是努力從寬的幫助這些疫苗新冠接種的受害者去幫他們這個找到救濟的方式和管道就是說就是如果有這樣的管道我們會予以支持但是就是說是否就能夠達到這個當然...部長沒關係我是問你們對部長我是問你們衛福部的態度喔"},{"start":7068.969,"end":7096.763,"text":"adequ?你們應該是要用從寬的方式去努力幫他們爭取他們應該有的賠償,對不對?部長是這樣吧?應該我們會幫忙。沒錯齁,那你們態度應該是這樣,我可以這樣說。但是部長我告訴你喔,我四月初的時候發文詢問你們VICP的審議辦法,關在我們國內的受害者的救濟部分喔。從一百一十一年的八月以後的會議記錄跟錄音檔,我問他們說有沒有。結果你知道我拿到的回文是什麼嗎?"},{"start":7100.433,"end":7110.346,"text":"說我拿到回文是說你們出席的委員是主案討論然後所以沒有另定並未另定議事規範然後呢還有什麼沒有保留會議記錄的錄音檔"},{"start":7113.404,"end":7131.596,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":7134.145,"end":7140.892,"text":"總審議的件數是162件,有相關是2件,無法確定是8件,無關是152件。但是你知道那天開會是從下午2點開到4點15分鐘,總共135分鐘。"},{"start":7145.35,"end":7163.404,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":7163.544,"end":7175.174,"text":"但是採用線上會議的專家學者並非全程參加審查會。有些人甚至只參加20分鐘、21分鐘、半個小時。所以很少數是全程參與。我想要請問你們這樣的審議方法是真的有在審查嗎?其實在進大會這個審議小組大會的討論之前都會有預審。"},{"start":7190.612,"end":7213.52,"text":"我知道所以你要說前面會先有兩家專家這個兩兩位專家先行鑑定對但是部長你知道嗎我們以前也是很信任專家但是最近有一個訴訟案在台北高等行政法院的第112年的這個數字第454號判決理由我們看到這整個過程從一開始的鑑定到最後的審議結果根本就是大有問題"},{"start":7215.522,"end":7235.044,"text":"從剛剛你們內部開會我們就覺得是黑箱程序有問題到這個這個鑑定的結果整個過程都是有問題喔兩位鑑定委員的鑑定報告是超法醫的解剖報告而且但是這個解剖報告是要給檢察官作為認定是否自殺或他殺基本上他是一個與疫苗沒有關聯性的鑑定報告"},{"start":7236.428,"end":7260.541,"text":"但鑑定委員直接因為該份的解剖就認定受害者的死因和疫苗無關。後面的程序就是審議小組我們剛剛講的VICP這個審議小組沒有會議的規範沒有開會錄音檔沒有出席規定沒有表決規定就直接這樣判定無關如此粗糙所以才被行政法院打臉。"},{"start":7262.153,"end":7277.436,"text":"甚至你們疾管署引用的一篇什麼國際期刊根本只是一個先導的研究。連作者都在內文中寫還沒有完全完成就被你們拿來亂引用。所以我要請教部長台北高等行政法院的這個判決你們還有臉上訴嗎?"},{"start":7278.217,"end":7299.821,"text":" ️ ️ ️"},{"start":7300.122,"end":7302.185,"text":"netese 法院都直接判決了。"},{"start":7313.103,"end":7331.514,"text":"ignty 說你們呈現在網頁上的公開的資料都顯現程序根本很大的問題就是黑箱就是亂審你們最後決定補償的金額標準就是沒有標準這樣子的審查過程和結果我想是受害者家屬都沒有辦法接受你即將卸任了你不覺得卸任前應該要做一點"},{"start":7332.23,"end":7348.717,"text":"adequ?是不是應該對於這個案件就不要再上訴?甚至是第二就是希望把過去這些有審過的程序根本有問題的就應該要重審嗎?而且應該要重新訂定這個議事的程序和規範。我們現在有幾千案,這不可能是重審。"},{"start":7349.735,"end":7368.122,"text":" bicyn 但是你過程中很多受害家屬都出事的問題。 齊 這是科學的問題,英國關係有沒有是科學的問題。 bicyn 是科學的問題沒有做,所以剛剛我已經講了嘛,你們鑑定你們最後審查的過程沒有用跟疫苗相關的。 齊 所以我們會上訴。 bicyn 好,如果你還要堅持這樣子的話,我們還是會持續為我們受害者家屬來發聲。"},{"start":7370.103,"end":7390.718,"text":"再來部長這次在討論健保的問題我自己本身我們也跟這個14位委員共體26位連署然後推動一個健全醫療法人特別條例那跟今天我們的兩位委員提案的這個概念上這個有點基本上都是希望保障點子的部分當然這個預算的來源特別條例是不一樣"},{"start":7391.701,"end":7412.663,"text":"沒關係我要講的事情是部長去年9月14日賴清德說健保點值不足的問題不可以歸咎醫界因為醫師開設診所並不知道其他人的服務量能增加多少那醫療法規定醫師沒有拒絕病人的權利依照法律提供病人服務跟解決病痛反而收入減少這個制度有必要調整這是賴清德說的話"},{"start":7413.484,"end":7442.282,"text":"今年北區也已經大幅滑落到0.81等於是打八折給付那近年的物價上漲藥物以及人事成本的激增那健保申報醫療給付卻被打折這都是賴清德講的話所以今天國民黨委員要幫賴總統實現政見提出修法版本請教部長那執政黨的版本呢你們一直講各種理由就是不想做就是沒有改善這個醫療的問題那請問我們執政黨有沒有版本衛福部的版本呢"},{"start":7442.662,"end":7465.773,"text":" bicyn 呃,國務部的版本現在正在處理當中。也就是說我們是對於全民健保法整體的一個修正。不是只有單一條文。因為單一條文的修正的話,造成的後續的風險是非常高的。所以我們沒有全盤去討論。不是,你們講全盤討論已經很久了喔。所以這個東西就是執政黨的東西沒有做過了喔。有人認為這個事情是那麼簡單嗎?"},{"start":7466.793,"end":7489.619,"text":"當然不是那麼簡單,但是問題是你們總是要給一個方向嘛。我上任只有一年多,這中間的話我們這個建法的、修法的小組已經好了一年了。反映就是民間的問題喔,醫療體系這些血汗醫護,醫療體系也快要崩潰,影響的也是最終也是全體人,台灣人的醫療的權益喔。"},{"start":7491.139,"end":7508.697,"text":"難道您不知道現在急診室很多人滿為患然後也有醫護人員不足的問題有一些病床沒有辦法開那我覺得今天看了你們的報告簡單來講你們就是找各種理由嘛你就是找各種理由說不行不行不行政府沒錢那想要請教部長賴總統的政見現在衛福部是什麼態度"},{"start":7510.342,"end":7523.927,"text":"這個部分的話要去處理那這個處理必須要有全部的一個配套包括錢的來源今年1月8號也就是在選前幾天賴清德總統承諾若當選要召開改革健保給付擴大會議"},{"start":7525.167,"end":7542.734,"text":"單選後到現在我們只有看到賴清德跟他的老師辦的什麼健康臺灣論壇那這場論壇在上週六也做出結論有關健保的部分是第四點確保健保永續經營就這樣那請問部長這是就是有關健保的結論嗎"},{"start":7544.111,"end":7548.234,"text":"還是有沒有什麼大家不知道的事情或大家都知道的事情要怎麼解決具體方案?"},{"start":7574.211,"end":7574.231,"text":"閱讀者﹖"},{"start":7609.493,"end":7612.363,"text":"三、國民黨黨團擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":7623.167,"end":7647.937,"text":"一、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．一、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．一、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．一、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．一、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條條文修正草案．一、"},{"start":7648.097,"end":7663.526,"text":"三、國民黨黨團擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案 案 、國民黨黨團擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案 案 、國民黨黨團擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案 案 、國民黨黨團擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條條文修正草案 案 、國民黨黨團擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條條文修正草案 案 、國民黨黨團擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條條文修正草案 案 、國民黨黨黨團擬具:「全民健�"},{"start":7673.454,"end":7681.119,"text":"三、國民黨黨團擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案 案。」案。"},{"start":7704.514,"end":7720.769,"text":"一、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12次全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全"},{"start":7721.309,"end":7725.512,"text":"三、國民黨黨團擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":7746.437,"end":7775.335,"text":"一、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。閱讀委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。閱讀委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。案。閱讀委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。案。閱讀委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條條文修正草案案。案。閱讀委員王育敏等19人�"},{"start":7784.961,"end":7793.47,"text":"二、國民黨黨團擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":7806.425,"end":7807.169,"text":"三、國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":7924.025,"end":7927.809,"text":"好,我們繼續開會。接下來我們請劉建國委員進行質詢。劉建國委員"},{"start":7959.978,"end":7974.187,"text":"我先肯定趙薇跟蘇委員今天把這個健保點數一點要等值一元這樣的一個提案法律的修正案提到委員會來討論"},{"start":7976.203,"end":7993.473,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":7994.174,"end":8022.677,"text":"但是這高度共識的一件事情的過程裡面我是剛剛也看到這個衛務部的相關的報告那也看到很多委員的槌尋然後看到部長的答覆我是真的從一個角度來做思考我們站在醫界還有政府還有僱主還有被保險人就是要保惠的就是我們全體國民的這樣的事情這角度來做這樣的思考情況之下"},{"start":8023.277,"end":8048.127,"text":"然後部長跟署長還有我們先剛到的王委員都是來自一屆下一屆的部長也是來自一屆我想針對這些事情的處理應該不能只有站在一屆的角度那當然要從一屆的角度來做思考探討那也不為過因為畢竟提案的委員除了王昭偉之外蘇清泉委員也是來自一屆"},{"start":8049.068,"end":8072.113,"text":" bicyn 要很多的這樣的一個面向都要去思考的情況之下才可以把這樣的一個制度可長可久不會去因為要達到這個目標反而去造成沒有必要的後續的一些擔憂或是困擾我想這才是我們真正要解決的一個方式我先給部長跟署長還有委員會看一個資料"},{"start":8077.734,"end":8090.354,"text":"我說這個人離開之後講的話都會比較中肯一些這是前署長他直接就講了健保點子什麼叫做一點議員我也可能要速度快一點"},{"start":8091.67,"end":8102.583,"text":" disadvant二、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．立法院第11屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12條條文修正草案．立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境"},{"start":8111.013,"end":8116.017,"text":" disadvant二、委員王育敏等19人擬具〈全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案〉案。�二、委員王育敏等19人擬具〈全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案〉案。�二、委員王育敏等19人擬具"},{"start":8141.033,"end":8164.492,"text":"還是這個第18條有匯率的部分還有這個準備金的安全準備金的部分這都是三個面向都必須要去思考的問題至於公務預算的挹注那公務預算是不是要常態性的一個配套這個我想都是有討論的空間那前書長就提到每年訂定花位的醫療費用就是總額那其幾戶適用點數"},{"start":8167.261,"end":8184.926,"text":"adequ不斷在衝業務量時醫療點數就超過總額也就是最近很夯的點值下降當大家減少不必要浪費的醫療行為那總額高於醫療點數點值就會上升醫療費用主要是藥品費用和醫療服務的手術診療費"},{"start":8187.108,"end":8207.466,"text":""},{"start":8207.807,"end":8230.384,"text":"�"},{"start":8231.175,"end":8258.337,"text":"則承諾健保點子不低於0.9並朝1.1的目標邁進這是負責任的正式風範我想這剛剛很多委員都有提出來我再把這個當時有講的話的歷史背景再拿出來這是在選前的前一天這個頭到最後廣場是在今年的1月12號那政府只是一個團體沒有錢錢都是來自國民的稅收所以去調這個調那個調那個也是都對"},{"start":8261.411,"end":8265.154,"text":" bicyn Kwan-yong"},{"start":8279.113,"end":8307.919,"text":"而七、七零九二億啦齁。稅數是兩兆八千多億。民運隊的國防預算是在六千應該他是講今年啦齁。六千出啦。但是健保的總額現在已經高達八千三百多億啦。應該還更高吧。齁。署長你會比我更清楚。一屆的組的是想得到更多的總額的錢來補足這個點值齁。一點億元。但是在收支這個平衡之下就必須要提高健保匯率。"},{"start":8310.02,"end":8315.263,"text":" bicyn Kwan-kwan-kwan-kwan-kwan-kwan"},{"start":8339.901,"end":8357.693,"text":" bicyn 蘇以治療等支付標準,讓辛苦的醫療人員都能夠獲得合理的報酬,讓醫療院所以專業獲取合理利潤,不靠充病人數多、藥物使用量大來賺取這個藥價差。下面應該還有啦齁。但事實上是這樣啦齁。最後一段的話是應該講說"},{"start":8365.905,"end":8388.4,"text":" disadvant二、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．事由、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．事由、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．事由、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．事由、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條條文修正草案．"},{"start":8392.462,"end":8416.773,"text":"厲此禮賢署長也把相關的現狀都點出來。但是我們要去處理這事情,如果單純去修正這一條就可以解決,那沒有理由去反對。那如果單純修這一條,還有很多事情要去做思考,那是不是大家應該有更多的討論的空間。我是不是請署長回應一下。"},{"start":8421.271,"end":8447.274,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案》案。netesi,跟委員報告,確實像委員所提到的,那麼過去我們這幾年也不斷地在修這些支付標準,希望讓各科之間可以平衡,但是它也是會影響到點值的下降,從我們的分析裡面它也是一個因素,所以還是要全面性的思考,包含這個總額如何適當的成長,還有各項的財源多元化的這個"},{"start":8448.835,"end":8449.937,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具"},{"start":8462.075,"end":8478.748,"text":"就這樣。我講這麼多,你就要講那樣?因為時間到了。時間到了,人家主席都沒有講,奇怪了。部長,請補充吧。你們都是來自一屆嘛,對不對?蘇委員是一屆,王委員是一屆。"},{"start":8481.698,"end":8497.244,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":8497.244,"end":8519.684,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":8520.049,"end":8546.751,"text":"但是這個問題是否就從一點一元這樣子一個單純的修法就能夠解決?我不認為。因為裡面要去處理的事情是非常多。但是你如果今天通過一點一元,假設這個通過了,健保幾乎沒有能力再去處理其他的事情。因為所有的資源都弄到去增加這一個點子。"},{"start":8548.325,"end":8553.347,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具〈全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案〉案〈全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案〉"},{"start":8579.101,"end":8583.148,"text":"只要處理得好,就有辦法解決所有問題,我才會做。"},{"start":8588.669,"end":8605.404,"text":"蘇清泉等28人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第16次全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次"},{"start":8616.274,"end":8617.816,"text":"這個本來就是健保的制度就是有收入面跟支出面的問題。"},{"start":8637.011,"end":8656.517,"text":"那現在是這個條文是要處理的是收入面。我希望是把這一個引入公務預算來預注。但是它的金額是必須要在我們整體的國家的財政的收入能夠負擔的一個條件之下。"},{"start":8657.037,"end":8657.758,"text":" bicylson"},{"start":8673.251,"end":8701.636,"text":"所以,如果說這條文要這樣子,等於說把總額支付制度的精神已經拿掉了。拿掉之後的話,公務預算每年要去做補貼,事先就要先預估。如果說我今年預估明年要有一千億,我公務預算也編了,明年如果超出一千億的部分,就是要健保那邊的安全準備要去用。"},{"start":8703.029,"end":8732.278,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":8733.258,"end":8754.605,"text":"公務預算不是燙害,要啟示不禁用字不解,不是這個樣子。我知道啦,因為主席也站起來很久了,不想就一句話就好啦,就剩下十多天,我們要來處理這事情,因你的智慧跟經驗。我大概沒有什麼智慧啦。你這麼講我怎麼接下去?"},{"start":8758.47,"end":8785.175,"text":"沒有,這其實是全國各界大家都必須要好好來做討論啦。是,沒有錯,沒有錯,對。方方面面大家都要全部都想清楚了。不是,不是,不是,不是,最後一句話啦齁。我想,我想有時候秤值比值秤更重要,這個你都比我更清楚了。所以我才會想說,這其實也是,也是大家的一個痛啦。坦白講嘛,對不對。那如果在最後十多天,也因為你的秤值,"},{"start":8785.862,"end":8808.524,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":8809.434,"end":8810.515,"text":"接下來我們請王振旭委員質詢。"},{"start":8842.391,"end":8869.082,"text":"謝謝主席。麻煩薛部長還有石署長。好,薛部長、石署長請。國安好。部長好。石署長好。經過剛剛很熱烈的討論,我們知道其實這個真的非常非常重要。期待透過很好的討論,得到社會大家共同來面對這個問題。"},{"start":8870.526,"end":8894.407,"text":" bicyn Kwan-hung﹗一、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案﹗一、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案﹗一、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案﹗一、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條條文修正草案﹗一、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條條文修正草案﹗一、委員王育敏等19人"},{"start":8898.57,"end":8919.237,"text":" bicyn 想要跟部長討論的就是下一張的幻燈片告訴我們說除了這個高度滿意以外基本上就是提升了這個醫療的可敬性讓民眾在就醫的時候可以很方便而且可以及時的得到整個疾病的照護那也促進了國人的健康"},{"start":8920.057,"end":8940.653,"text":"那過去這20年來總額支付制度執行下來其實也真的能夠讓這個健保的資源除了控管以外也得到有效的利用那當然它的造成的影響尤其是疫情之後造成的影響讓我們整體的這個醫療的韌性受到很大的考驗"},{"start":8941.734,"end":8960.15,"text":"那對於醫療我從業人員剛剛提到很多次包括部長、署長還有現場服務員還有我本身都是來自醫界我們非常非常的認同健保制度有這麼好的優點可是還是需要做一些調整做一些改革"},{"start":8960.931,"end":8989.707,"text":"那透過這個改革除了繼續照顧民眾的健康的同時也希望能夠來建立一個友善的醫療環境讓所有的從事的醫療同仁都能夠得到該有的保障這個是我們非常非常期待的那我們可以了解剛剛也提過很多相關有關於新政府賴總統當選人他未來希望能夠對健保的部分做哪一些的"},{"start":8990.788,"end":8993.19,"text":" bicyn 蘇清泉等28人擬具"},{"start":9007.501,"end":9016.128,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12條條文修正草案：立法院第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":9025.316,"end":9040.185,"text":" unintendant to the future administrative team of the Ministry of Health and Welfare, we need to put forward some comprehensive and comprehensive planning strategies for the long-term goal of fostering wealth and promoting健康."},{"start":9040.185,"end":9051.112,"text":"We can see from the next slide that if the document of the current president can be presented and realized, in fact, last Saturday,"},{"start":9051.312,"end":9061.584,"text":" bicynkong Taiwan的論壇裡面就有提出了一些財務策略的方向來作為改革的一個大的方向的依據那這邊就羅列了六點那這六點請問部長未來我們"},{"start":9066.75,"end":9068.431,"text":"議員,可以請部長先來讓我們知道這個大方向可行的部分。"},{"start":9084.386,"end":9089.655,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":9098.439,"end":9102.182,"text":" bicyn Kwan-kwan-kwan-kwan"},{"start":9123.479,"end":9125.641,"text":" bicyn Kwan-hung, 國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":9146.876,"end":9151.641,"text":" bicyn 蘇清泉等28人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案 案 條文修正草案 案 條文修正草案 案"},{"start":9169.938,"end":9182.706,"text":"是,所以部長意思是說如果透過這些健保財務策略的這個改善方向來看的話未來還是有機會去增加整體的醫療資源這個是可以肯定的"},{"start":9184.671,"end":9203.701,"text":"這都是一樣啦,就是說公務預算放到這個健保裡面去移住,或者是公務預算另外去支援這一些計畫,其實都是公務預算。就是有機會可以去做調整的,如果說主計總數這邊的話,能夠把這個預算容許我們編列出來,那這個就"},{"start":9210.024,"end":9211.106,"text":"bedingt."},{"start":9229.446,"end":9258.032,"text":"那針對於下一頁我們可以看到的就是總和制度的改革其實最重要的目標就是希望能夠穩定醫療的服務點值那就包括這幾大項那這部分除了部長來說明以外那署長也可以來補充說明未來針對於這個彈性總和制度總和目標制等等的話如果能夠讓民眾或者是整個醫療團隊醫療團體對於我們如何穩定醫療服務點值是更有信心"},{"start":9259.974,"end":9279.308,"text":"這個部分的話,第一個我們在座討論。第二個部分的話,其實都已經現在是在做了。包括這些偏鄉的保障一點議員,或者是他的給付加成,這個現在都在做。DRG的部分的話,其實是可以持續在座推動,這個也應該是可以做得到。"},{"start":9280.129,"end":9307.992,"text":"那高價集中性的這些醫療服務獨立在總額之外其實目前都是先用專款在做處理它嚴格來講也是屬於說在總額之外所以問題點是出在第一個所謂的彈性總額制度這邊寫的是總額目標制總額目標制的定義必須要清楚假設說我們今年預定的總額是九千億"},{"start":9309.366,"end":9317.779,"text":"那最後超出了,要怎麼處理?你如果堅持是1.1元的話,幾乎可以說是沒有總額的。"},{"start":9321.288,"end":9347.928,"text":"adequ目標是假的因為超出你還是1.1人嘛0.95也是一樣所以如果是要目標制的話就超出總額之外的話必須要打折那問題就是要打幾折以現在是打零折啦就是通通超出了就不付啦那以後的話要打幾折這個大家要講清楚如果說所謂的總額目標制要去推這個的話"},{"start":9348.985,"end":9373.057,"text":"adequer我們的改革真的是要執行要進行那來怎麼做會是最適當我們可以看下一張其實六十二健保法六十二條就是在規範這個總額制度之下這個點子的調整的這個部分的要求我們再往下看知道說那如果真的把這個部分點子做一個下線上的這個要求的話那未來的實質運作還算是"},{"start":9373.677,"end":9402.363,"text":"�"},{"start":9402.363,"end":9404.605,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具〈全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案〉案"},{"start":9422.702,"end":9450.658,"text":"�那如何在以現有的基礎上在做一些適度的調控來改善支付基準的這些改革讓全民也都了解讓醫界也共同來了解說我們希望建構一個良善的好的醫療環境讓所有的醫療同仁持續的來照顧全民的健康那同時又能夠讓這個支付達到一個更好的合理的分配還有合理的這個醫療資源的提供"},{"start":9451.098,"end":9469.834,"text":"我相信這個大家一定要共同來努力。那也期待部長在未來的時間裡面,持續往這個方向一起來貢獻您的力量。好,謝謝。謝謝部長。好,謝謝王振旭委員。接下來我們請蘇清泉委員質詢。"},{"start":9481.27,"end":9499.098,"text":"我請部長還有石崇亮,石長。好,部長、蘇長請。委員好。委員好。府長,我都很認識你,所以大家都很了解。我問你,為什麼台灣所有的服務業只有醫療在做總合資?"},{"start":9505.646,"end":9510.531,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":9525.686,"end":9526.927,"text":" bicyn Kwan-hung,執政局長"},{"start":9551.553,"end":9561.1,"text":"你看這個支付這麼健保的啦,這支付這個和美國幣、和澳門幣這都是你看我們啦,代票啦,我看過美國人來看計程,看起來我說聽聽說,我們說要納300塊的代票,他說他會納300塊的美金啦,所以我們就這麼這樣,下一張。"},{"start":9578.414,"end":9594.216,"text":"來,我們先講醫療暴力啦。我在第八屆的時候,劉建國委員,大家也很認真。所以我們第八屆修了醫療法,看護醫護人員的職業環境安全,我們也做到了喔。所以跟部長讓你了解。"},{"start":9595.077,"end":9613.523,"text":"adequ時候就已經修改王育敏也有那昨天全天我們屏東榮總發生暴力事件暴力事件我也第一時間跟院長跟吳東麟跟他瞭解詳細情況"},{"start":9615.299,"end":9644.514,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":9645.06,"end":9667.875,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":9667.955,"end":9680.727,"text":"也是要到該要處理的時候了。我剛才跟劉建國說,劉建國說,我們都做了這麼久,現在不一定可以做的事情就像李明亮那樣沖沖的做磚。這樣你就全世界、全台灣都要感謝你。我不會付啦。不會付那條健保費。"},{"start":9692.421,"end":9718.398,"text":"總統三個候選人都同樣的訴求,現在你賴清德你當選了,你就要面對那種幫你耍,洗肝腦就有事了。你要說每一行都要蓋每一行都要照顧好自己,不用怕啦。所以你今天這個發生了過去,過去你其他要怎麼配套,出委員會,我們自己去合作,我也同意啦。我們保險司也說過,大家一起去合作。"},{"start":9721.34,"end":9740.435,"text":""},{"start":9740.987,"end":9741.647,"text":"ympt."},{"start":9741.647,"end":9759.196,"text":"八個工協會全部都跑出來挺了。所以這個也不是你部長的問題啦。但是你部長你現在有一個很好的成十五天喔。你如果衝過來喔。他會感謝你二十年啦。所以...他會感謝我二十年,我會讓民眾湊五十年。不會啦。不會啦。我告訴你啦。不會啦。現在喔。"},{"start":9768.26,"end":9775.886,"text":"不是要買的問題,這是現況。如果只是這個法案過,沒有其他配套的原因,有可能兩黨擬補就倒了。擬補永遠都不會倒啦。擬補所有執政的人、做總統的人,他絕對不會有擬補意。如果沒有的話,石崇良並是全台灣最大的債務人。他結幹,我們事情都不用做,自己去做三年罷就好。"},{"start":9796.007,"end":9797.007,"text":"我們現在政府的導出不足。"},{"start":9813.097,"end":9839.565,"text":""},{"start":9841.847,"end":9842.387,"text":"我們去德國看,德國也做總額。"},{"start":9870.257,"end":9890.495,"text":"結果他是用總和目標制啊,石署長。德國是用總和目標制喔。所以呢,因今年沒夠的經費,因為未能挪進來。所以是卯吃遠糧。不管啦,他們都是這樣,都挪、挪、挪。到現在他們幾乎是廢紙總和了嘛。他們的總和也沒..."},{"start":9892.15,"end":9903.996,"text":"adequ?這樣他們的醫療會失控嗎?沒有嘛。時間還不夠啊。時間還不夠。我們這個總額,你跟社會說我們要把這個總額廢掉,我沒有,我是說做目標制。我沒有要做目標。所以橋櫃目標是委員的想法是要打幾折?"},{"start":9917.924,"end":9921.786,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具〈全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":9948.724,"end":9963.34,"text":" bicyn Kwan-可以啦。做得到啦。然後我們的全民健保是臺灣唯一臺灣最大的安定力量。就是這一些醫界,包括你,包括石署長。大家,署長做急診的。大家這樣,這樣繞起來啦。"},{"start":9967.825,"end":9981.681,"text":"那現在年輕人跟我們以前想法不一樣以前醫師來我都會跟他講我們的目標我們在偏遠地區要怎麼樣怎麼樣理想都講現在我連講都不講了現在一來就講代議講休假講稅金這樣而已"},{"start":9985.485,"end":9989.091,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」"},{"start":9998.371,"end":10025.88,"text":"所以這……這……這……畢業生跟道德力那麼低,然後現在在住院的病人齁,你不要想說他們會爛住院,沒有可能,現在沒有,現在別人要住院的部分都在管啦,所以他現在要住院,他是要認為,我們認為他要住院,他也自己覺得他要住院的,欸,他才會住呢,結果住了在急診室,在急診室啊,三十五歲、四十五歲、五十歲,每天都要帶床,我們知道在外國委員每天都在體驗很長,"},{"start":10027.841,"end":10040.832,"text":"一、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12次全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全民健康保險法第12次全"},{"start":10042.102,"end":10048.146,"text":"要勇敢面對的時候啦。對啦。對啦。但是要整體線去考量,因為你如果單單處理,像我這樣單一的,單要放一點議員的話,可能你那問題要來解決就先倒了。"},{"start":10061.515,"end":10084.766,"text":"要考慮的這一點,我現在在很語重心長地提出來就是這個樣子。你沒有說全盤的,不用說百分之百做得perfect,但是有幾個重點必須要去顧不住的。這些東西你如果顧不住,只要再衝一下就到了。賣負你做那些,剛才委員在顧那些,那些改革賣負人家做,你檢保的位置就不會落眼了。"},{"start":10091.547,"end":10108.673,"text":"好,我們答詢完畢之後,我希望我們這個案子是給他出委員會,然後我們來好好討論。以上。好,謝謝。好,謝謝。謝謝蘇清泉委員。接下來我們請林淑芬委員質詢。"},{"start":10120.438,"end":10125.036,"text":"謝謝主席。我是不是還是請我們這個薛部長。好,請薛部長。"},{"start":10131.32,"end":10147.599,"text":"委員長,雖然你剩下十幾天,不過我想你從選舉前到現在,態度大概看起來都還算是一致。就是說其實都要很務實的去討論,而不是基於一些因素就可以隨便說說。"},{"start":10150.539,"end":10169.486,"text":" bicyn 剛才蘇委員也講到說這個我們是不是要把這個制度改成支付目標制這樣子所以今天的修法看起來如果朝這個方向去的話我們可能討論的不是只有點值的這個問題可能還會談到到底要不要取消總額制度那"},{"start":10170.026,"end":10187.022,"text":""},{"start":10187.462,"end":10188.303,"text":" bicyn 沈 沈"},{"start":10207.176,"end":10222.329,"text":"�"},{"start":10222.529,"end":10233.031,"text":" bicyn 但是我現在問的是說這是一個非常時期的暫時的一時的變化還是說整個必然的趨勢就是說整體的看診量的會一直持續的一直往上漲這樣子那如果他是一時的只是疫情過後的各種病毒的這個跑出來一時的現象那我們還可以討論但如果是總的必然的趨勢永遠的看診的量就一直要往上漲的話那我們就要討論這個總額或是這個餅一定要變大"},{"start":10252.295,"end":10266.374,"text":""},{"start":10266.903,"end":10292.756,"text":""},{"start":10293.377,"end":10313.393,"text":"厲不是說只有繳健保費獎部分這個致富而不是真的變相的名目很多很多那在這種狀況裡面啊我我我今天比較想跟你討論的就會變成說到底這個總額制度是不是罪魁禍首這個總額管制到底是不是問題啊"},{"start":10315.49,"end":10318.991,"text":"為什麼要引入這個總額管制的制度?因為一開始不是嘛,從91年2002年才開始的。為什麼?那當時的費用控制有什麼問題?"},{"start":10338.792,"end":10349.132,"text":"因為在過去的話那如果說費用成長那比超出預期之外的話那唯一的能夠做的話就是由健保那邊去做核酸。"},{"start":10350.389,"end":10359.131,"text":"netes看到就是說因為這個醫改會有數據他說87年為例投保金額成長率大概成長5%但醫療費用成長超過10%所以在這種狀況面臨巨額的虧損的時候開源不易所以當時就大家都認為說要"},{"start":10372.295,"end":10398.575,"text":"�"},{"start":10399.135,"end":10418.623,"text":"但是理論上當初在執行這個總額管制的時候我們是希望透過也是透過預估年度的預算總額然後以醫事服務提供者要去發揮同儕制約的效果因為當時沒有總額管制以前就有一種充量也在充量計價不斷的在過度醫療的問題都跑出來嘛"},{"start":10422.585,"end":10438.592,"text":""},{"start":10438.712,"end":10455.755,"text":"第二、在執行過程當中也邀請醫事服務的提供者討論訂出支付標準以及主導醫療服務的審查這個角色。第三、保險人角色收卸為統籌輔導政策評估和規劃提高醫療專業團體的自治空間。但是這個是當初2002年要實施總額管制當時的理論上的理想"},{"start":10467.037,"end":10495.544,"text":"但是大家多年到現在都覺得總額管制的制度早已經名存實亡。為什麼呢?真正的現實面到現在理想為什麼幻滅?這是一改會講的啦一改會說從實務面來看政府透過保障收入補點值這一種本來都不是總額管制裡面該有的制度裡面早就打破了總額的規範而健保方案計畫的制定"},{"start":10496.004,"end":10523.365,"text":" bicyn 更違背了各種各式各樣的方案,違背了總而洽的評估和管理精神,以至於協議難以順利進行。從制度面來看,當時要配套要有加醫制度、分級醫療制度、論人、論病病例、計酬、支付標準、衡平性的檢討,可以改變病人的就醫行為還有醫師診療行為的配套措施也都沒有辦法真正的落實。"},{"start":10525.667,"end":10550.459,"text":" bicy 專業團體的同儕制約自主審查也不健全。大家漸漸地就覺得說到最後都是劣幣驅逐良幣。所以依改會的講法是說大家不論是醫界或是使用者或者是專業的團體都認為總額制急切已經走到了一個很像是名存實往的這個地步了。"},{"start":10550.979,"end":10569.454,"text":" bicyn 但是呢我覺得這裡面啊整個社會的變化太大我們有一點沒有考慮到你知道在要實施總額管制的時候那時候的65歲以下的老年人口多少數量你知道嗎沒有他是9%左右就是200萬"},{"start":10571.636,"end":10577.54,"text":"而以你知道實施到現在65歲以上的人口從197萬、200萬到現在是多少萬嗎?450萬"},{"start":10584.787,"end":10614.633,"text":""},{"start":10614.773,"end":10641.205,"text":"但是你遇到人口老化你看光是老年人口從總額管制到現在增加了一倍以上一倍250萬未來還要再增加那再疾病慢性化再加上少子女化未來健保的財務繳的人少用的人多多更多不是成長幾%是倍數成長"},{"start":10644.326,"end":10674.053,"text":""},{"start":10674.974,"end":10702.273,"text":"你的客觀的看法當然委員剛剛講的大部分都是其實就現在的一個狀況那不過健保這一個部分的話本來就是很複雜那剛剛提到的總額總額支付制度的話執行了這麼多年的確有達到費用控管的一個成效不能完全都否定掉"},{"start":10702.913,"end":10716.222,"text":"但是未來如果說要總額的部分的話要去做修正這個我個人也覺得但是這個財務本來就已經是建立在一個非常岌岌可危的基礎上了結構上"},{"start":10718.063,"end":10733.933,"text":"�"},{"start":10734.053,"end":10750.515,"text":"ernto必須要其他取代的方式,比方說某種程度某種對象的論文記酬。另外的話當然就有一些特殊的一些狀況。當時的理想的啊,可是你們都沒有執行啊。"},{"start":10751.156,"end":10776.457,"text":" bicyn-沒有落實我們其實都在進展當中啦尤其是剛剛委員提到的這些老年人慢性病者這個部分的話其實就是我們現在正在推的在那個健保制度之下現在正在推動的但是這個要轉變醫療界的他的長久以來的作業模式這個是需要時間啦"},{"start":10777.638,"end":10793.344,"text":"所以依改會有提出幾個,就是說提升資源可敬性,強化資源分配的效率,照顧近貧和弱勢,拒絕便宜形式的政策補貼,遏止未竟周延的選舉買票,大家都要很嚴肅的去面對。那他還提出了一個就是說,這個總額這個視否存序,這個財務改革的腳步都不應該停止。"},{"start":10800.026,"end":10830.026,"text":"�"},{"start":10830.026,"end":10847.978,"text":""},{"start":10848.274,"end":10869.974,"text":"好,謝謝林淑芬委員的質詢。好啦,這個的確是很多困難,但是我們還是想說,最後主席我講一點,就是說你說你固定點值,然後打破了總額管制,然後等於架空了總額,但是你說沒關係這個叫公務預算去買單,公務預算我們並不是沒有稅入短促,然後財政赤字過,有。"},{"start":10871.135,"end":10899.07,"text":""},{"start":10910.712,"end":10919.537,"text":"謝謝主席。是不是請薛部長。好,我們請薛部長。部長你好。111年齁,這個健保幾戶"},{"start":10922.594,"end":10939.732,"text":" bicyn 而前二十大藥品就高血壓、高血脂、高血糖等三高藥物用量最多,凸顯高齡化社會用藥的狀況。那西藥供應資訊平台從今年一月到現在,社區藥局共通"},{"start":10943.673,"end":10961.926,"text":"adequ報過52種藥品短缺有藥師擔心年底恐怕會有缺藥潮那藉時全國有600多萬名慢性病患用藥權益可能會受損那本席提醒衛福部不要讓民眾有斷藥的風險同時也要進行專案稽查"},{"start":10965.469,"end":10987.8,"text":" bicylman 做好藥品品質的把關以避免廠商動手腳影響民眾用藥的權益,部長你有什麼看法?這目前我們都是一直在接受通報當中,我們也持續在monitor這件事情,那缺藥的情形如果是在事前是可以發現的話,那我們會去做一些處理。"},{"start":10988.2,"end":10988.46,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":10988.46,"end":11003.9,"text":"我希望另外一方面的話我們也希望說如果有取代的學民藥那就大家都不要太過擔心好啦我是認為這個要去重視啦那個部長首先本席支持減少重複用藥啦"},{"start":11005.101,"end":11029.011,"text":"一、減少不必要的醫療行為感謝基層同仁的把關減少全民健保的浪費當民眾就醫量暴增而且超過預估的服務總量時健保點值就會被稀釋醫療院所收入將會減少現行費用的總額推估難免有失準之處"},{"start":11030.111,"end":11055.615,"text":"那預估不足的部分全由醫療人員吸收承擔不盡合理。因此,112年行政院動資51億元,51億的錢來補貼健保點子本席支持法治化來補足健保的點子。希望衛務部能審慎考慮不要一味反對在野黨的提案。你的看法勒?"},{"start":11056.675,"end":11078.931,"text":"基本上以去年度的到今年度還在執行的點子補到0.9,我們目前已經用掉50幾億了。這個部分的話,的確是我們看到了新冠疫情從公共預算支付變成健保支付造成的服務量增加。"},{"start":11079.551,"end":11102.854,"text":"第二個就基層來講的話其實我們也發現說這一段時間我們看到的是基層的這種看感冒啦等等這一些這些疾病的比例是降低的而慢性病尤其是拿慢簽的長期慢性病長期處方簽的在基層的數量增加很多"},{"start":11103.354,"end":11107.236,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":11121.323,"end":11141.886,"text":"�"},{"start":11142.006,"end":11169.358,"text":" bicylian在地檢。那請問那個衛福部,乍領健保的情況竹林減少主要原因是為何?因為我們是很有用系統性的去做查核。所以許多這種乍領的案件的話就比較容易去發生。所以說這個健保乍期損失金額是不是竹林在降低?應該會是比較一直是在降低的。好最後一個議題齁。"},{"start":11171.345,"end":11195.336,"text":"​​根據媒體報導目前正值長病毒流行期那上週上門診的急診就有超14000多人次叫前一週上升17.3%那請問衛福部全國長病毒疫情高峰期你認為過了嗎還沒有還在持續上升中"},{"start":11197.037,"end":11222.99,"text":"據瞭解目前整個實驗室監測到腸病毒以這個克沙奇A型為主而且容易引起重症的腸病毒71型只有林興輕症個案那請問衛福部腸病毒71型是否會在今年大流行呢目前還沒有這個跡象沒有這個跡象沒有這個跡象不過我們也在密切的注意要多注意謝謝謝謝"},{"start":11225.131,"end":11240.416,"text":"好,謝謝林德福委員的諮詢接下來我們請賴世保委員諮詢賴世保委員諮詢賴世保委員諮詢賴世保委員諮詢賴世保委員諮詢賴世保委員諮詢賴世保委員諮詢賴世保委員諮詢賴世保委員諮詢賴世保委員諮詢"},{"start":11253.007,"end":11266.439,"text":"我從民國106年的8月回到衛福部。10年喔?沒有啦,106,現在113,差不多7年。7年,時間也很久了喔。你要離開部長這個位置,心裡會不會覺得有點遺憾?不會,我很開心。很開心喔。"},{"start":11277.628,"end":11299.616,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12屆議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第12屆議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第12屆議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第12屆"},{"start":11300.97,"end":11316.557,"text":"應該不是說這樣子的,應該是說,城市不必在握,後面的人有他處理的方式。但是點子一塊錢是可以做到的嗎?你給你時間你可以處理。Depends啊。Depends,因為你沒有在位子上嘛。"},{"start":11317.877,"end":11337.158,"text":"對,因為不需要很多的配套才可能做得到。所以,你如果繼續在位置上可以處理,是這個意思?我不敢這樣講。但是有機會?這個都是角色性的問題,我就沒有辦法回答。我跟你說喔,這個東西,這個賴清德的政見,"},{"start":11338.806,"end":11356.03,"text":"是啊是啊當然可以可以你現在來講差700多億如果0.95的700億是不是?700億左右我們去年稅收增加多少你知道嗎?我知道增加3680億3680億你爭取一下這三年每年都給三千億"},{"start":11362.951,"end":11363.991,"text":"ympt."},{"start":11363.991,"end":11365.112,"text":"如果改成一塊錢"},{"start":11390.546,"end":11393.713,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具〈全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案〉案。"},{"start":11399.394,"end":11424.531,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":11425.515,"end":11425.535,"text":"對阿!"},{"start":11435.896,"end":11459.275,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":11460.391,"end":11468.897,"text":"所以這個很清楚看得到是不回也不是不能贏因為只要政府不給你就有了啊不給你就有了你差700多億算什麼對我們來講當年給三、四千億去年給四、五千億"},{"start":11487.847,"end":11504.674,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛"},{"start":11517.062,"end":11541.532,"text":"所以今天來講我最後一句話啦齁最後一句欸請問你喔最後你講台灣那邊華贊族華贊民主之光阿諾特之光健保是不是台灣之光當然是絕對是而且是NO.1對對不對對這麼讚勒一天一塊錢就是這樣而已啊這樣大家看不出來你知道嗎POINT你知道什麼POINT我不知道那營地不知道要怎麼換我不知道是不是到了"},{"start":11543.387,"end":11549.991,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":11552.657,"end":11554.398,"text":"kiye賴世保委員"},{"start":11582.577,"end":11584.198,"text":"接下來我們請李燕秀委員質詢。李燕秀委員"},{"start":11601.929,"end":11618.338,"text":"委員好部長雖然快要離開這個位置階段性的角色但是我覺得重點重要的理念跟想法我還是要再一次確認部長來我們看一下部長裡面有哪幾句話是你說的這個表格裡面哪一句部長"},{"start":11625.802,"end":11638.386,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．事由．委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．事由．委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條條文修正草案．事由．委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條條文修正草案．事由．委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條條條文修正草案．事由．委員王育"},{"start":11639.241,"end":11657.705,"text":""},{"start":11657.705,"end":11661.327,"text":" bicyn 您覺得這個目標到底合不合理?這個目標到底對不對?"},{"start":11679.94,"end":11699.667,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":11699.667,"end":11714.684,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":11714.684,"end":11733.2,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":11733.34,"end":11750.365,"text":"netesa yi ke lu dan zai bian dang li mian cong 10 kuai, 12 kuai, 15 kuai, 18 kuai, zai jia yi ke lu dan yu xie yao jia dao 20 kuai, yu yi xie bian dang dien biao yu ming de yao jia dao 20 kuai, 22 kuai, zhen zhen 25 kuai de douyou。但是我們的醫療服務點值多年都沒有調整過。"},{"start":11751.305,"end":11766.425,"text":"�"},{"start":11766.425,"end":11788.592,"text":""},{"start":11788.592,"end":11813.985,"text":""},{"start":11814.325,"end":11839.158,"text":"這是長期啊我長期在未還我的想法我很訝異說你覺得這個目標你沒有辦法支持我覺得你坐在這個位置上我很訝異你這樣子講所以剛才賴氏華委員講說其實你還是可以去爭取林佑昌內政部長在最後一個禮拜都還可以給里長春節慰問金他也爭取到你比他小一點對不對不是這樣說嘛"},{"start":11841.719,"end":11852.496,"text":"厲?你要去爭取啊還是你沒有在交接過程當你還沒有跟邱太元溝通還是你還沒有跟我們賴清德底下私底下陳志宏溝通這個都沒有交接到嗎?"},{"start":11855.34,"end":11880.509,"text":"這個不是交接的問題。交接我有跟邱...這個是政策延續的問題。部長你同意這個是政策延續性的問題。這是耐心的重要的政策。你知道嘛。因為委員我說一下就是說我跟邱部長有交接這個事情他知道。但是你剛剛提到陳志宏老師那個他沒有從來沒有問我這件問題。"},{"start":11882.43,"end":11898.062,"text":" bicyn 它就是規劃賴清德重要的醫療政策,你知道啦。但是我覺得這個政策是延續性的,特別都是民進黨執政。這是賴清德重要的目標。我可以接受未來有審查機制在裡面。"},{"start":11898.863,"end":11899.123,"text":"我講一句話就好。"},{"start":11917.603,"end":11931.974,"text":"如果說這點子1.1元的話是通過的,也沒有辦法保證剛剛委員所講的分級醫療、醫護的這個薪水可以上升這些,沒有辦法保證那個。"},{"start":11933.015,"end":11945.921,"text":"所以我覺得政策目標對太多事情都要去努力但是不能因為說你沒有辦法保證分級醫療也是長期你們應該去努力的啊然後健保點是不要讓醫界做血汗也是你應該的每一項都是在現場我們"},{"start":11951.476,"end":11981.476,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":11982.156,"end":11982.557,"text":"接下來我們請盧憲一委員質詢。"},{"start":12010.861,"end":12037.334,"text":"稍微請部長。好,請薛部長。我很好。辛苦了,剩下18天,再忍耐一下。其實我們講了也聽了很多關於一點音樂的事情,那其實我一直在想是不是我們國家投資的不夠?"},{"start":12038.444,"end":12050.776,"text":"ernt?因為我們在看OECD平均是9.7而且它是從7一直逐漸上升到現在的9.7那我們國家一直停留在6.6你覺得我們國家應該要怎麼做來彌補這樣的一個空間?"},{"start":12055.26,"end":12081.941,"text":"當然增加這個衛生醫療方面的投資這個是有必要這前提我先講但是要怎麼樣增加的方法以及說資源要怎麼樣配置這個就必須要大家來做討論那目前來講的話說當然這個6.6是沒有把那個長照那個算進去如果長照算進去應該7點多了好那不管怎麼樣"},{"start":12082.822,"end":12103.975,"text":" bicyn保所佔的比例已經差不多4點多。已經差不多4點多。那我們是希望能夠逐步調高好不好?當然是有可能,但是每年的成長本來就會,成長率就會有這個調高的一個指數。我們今天的訴求大概就是0.95以上嘛,就是下一頁。"},{"start":12104.957,"end":12121.254,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":12121.929,"end":12124.051,"text":" bicyn Kwan-kwan﹗"},{"start":12145.503,"end":12161.57,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12"},{"start":12169.974,"end":12192.21,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":12192.483,"end":12194.305,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具〈全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":12215.123,"end":12231.638,"text":" bicyn 要進一步去做討論,因為新藥新科技它終究是醫療的一部分,那說不含在健保裡面的話其實是有一點問題的。"},{"start":12232.619,"end":12252.722,"text":"�"},{"start":12252.722,"end":12282.295,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":12282.381,"end":12297.995,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":12298.933,"end":12314.48,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":12314.82,"end":12338.21,"text":" bicyn 因爲我們希望能夠看見不一樣的投資。因爲在山地離島,在這些地區的醫院來講都是比較是小型的。所以現在健保署有一個計畫叫做燈塔型的醫院要怎麼樣去協助他,讓他不能倒。目前正在,已經規劃好,現在要跟醫界來做協商。"},{"start":12341.493,"end":12364.616,"text":" ️﹏﹏"},{"start":12364.776,"end":12391.376,"text":" bicyn 呃,這有一些傳說是不正確的啦。我們這偏鄉的醫療計畫裡面,那包括了有牙醫。因爲目前在臺灣﹖所以我們看這個數目是非常多,是高於全國各國的各個學校的醫學牙醫系。是現在是博博牙醫系是占最高的比例。現在問題是這些牙醫系畢業之後考上牙醫師執照的,"},{"start":12393.317,"end":12412.267,"text":"adequ在都會區。所以偏鄉還有很多是無牙醫師。可是我們很多養成班的牙醫系的學生並沒有分發到位啊。對,所以我們現在這個制度就希望這些牙醫師能夠到偏鄉去做服務。"},{"start":12413.148,"end":12431.374,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":12431.834,"end":12448.744,"text":"當然是可以啦,這開始運行之後的話我們會做一些報告但是我們也不排斥說這國外回來的這些牙醫師能夠來這邊來做服務反正本國的願意來我們優先我希望部長能夠轉達我們養成計畫裡面的牙醫工費生畢業的確實能夠到衛生所到位"},{"start":12455.128,"end":12458.631,"text":"對,我們希望說是在衛生所,但是也不完全都在衛生所。其實他要自己去租個地方開業診所,我們也都讓他有補助。"},{"start":12474.667,"end":12501.203,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":12502.281,"end":12503.461,"text":"謝謝主席楊瓊發言,我們再請部長。好,請薛部長。"},{"start":12527.38,"end":12554.597,"text":"議長,今天修了這第六十二條呢,那本席也有提案。那本席的提案是直接在點子方面呢,就是一塊。那我們中國國民黨的提案呢,也就是超過每年度醫療給付費用呢,總額的部分由中央主管機關編列預算支應。那在這個平均點子的部分呢,是不得低於這個0.95。請教部長,你支持吧。"},{"start":12555.919,"end":12574.011,"text":"這部分的話必須要去算,我已經有把這個數據提供給我們的這個委員會。提供的方向是大家推認的嗎?如果0.95的話,那就是一年必須要有700億,而且它是長期的,而且這700億會越來越多。"},{"start":12574.855,"end":12604.855,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":12604.855,"end":12632.671,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":12633.352,"end":12655.872,"text":"只有處理電池的問題的話是沒有辦法解決,台灣現在健康的問題在…你也是有作為的啦,所以我第一個就是我們發覺到疫情前跟疫情後,我也要謝謝你把疫情後大家增加的這些你用安全基金來撥補給我們所有的這個醫療體系嘛這樣子就是真正的在協助我們的醫療體系嘛"},{"start":12658.334,"end":12661.595,"text":" bicyn 因為你要針對目前的樣態去解決他們的問題。我一直在跟你討論說本席說我們尤其診所的"},{"start":12686.923,"end":12691.086,"text":" bicyn 您是有作為。我跟你討論的也就點值。我要確認一件事情。點值來加為至少是0.5以上。您應該是同意這樣子的方式嗎?就是我們今天要修的62條的這個條例啊。"},{"start":12716.664,"end":12736.425,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":12736.605,"end":12737.965,"text":"gines1.0.95以上本期提案是一塊。"},{"start":12764.093,"end":12773.617,"text":"厲點絕五以上,這個方向大家是共同的,那配套?那配套錢怎麼來?好,就是中央政府要來撥補資嗎?怎麼沒有?您的零點絕五怎麼會沒有?要撥稿來撥?就跟你安全基金一樣來補一樣啦,對不對?你固定電池,你如果是量沒辦法控制,"},{"start":12783.561,"end":12802.511,"text":"我跟你講,我們目前採取德國的方式用總額來簽。德國的是超過總額的部分的話他是打折支付,要怎麼樣打折。每一個國情不一樣,我本期告訴你的是你目前這個總額是由陳時中部長從德國的制度拿過來的啦,對不對?"},{"start":12804.412,"end":12807.593,"text":"所以沒關係我們每一個時間的樣態不一樣所以你就否決了陳時中了每一個樣態不一樣的時候我們就要去討論的確我們需要這樣子的一個協調我也希望調整我也希望你待會我們在討論的時候能夠支持那還有一點我要拜託你一下也就是說我們的這個老年人口跟醫療的需求"},{"start":12830.981,"end":12851.51,"text":"�"},{"start":12851.51,"end":12878.012,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":12879.866,"end":12904.501,"text":"但是我們的需求增加,你不用跟我咬文絕字啦,因為我們知道健保給付的不足會導致護理人員他沒有辦法去調薪嘛,加班費等啊,所以你如果只有專案的給他補一下,那個只有治病,所以我還是回來根源,我還是回來根源,三班的護病比,你要什麼時候可以去入法。"},{"start":12905.181,"end":12916.874,"text":"現在就已經是有,至於入法的部分的話就是說,如果沒有達到的必須要做處罰,因為小機構要有一個時間去把人找到啊。所以你有說了一句名言我蠻認同,你說到小飯修,那小飯修要飯修什麼?"},{"start":12926.645,"end":12927.085,"text":"adequ?"},{"start":12955.787,"end":12981.624,"text":"好,謝謝楊委員接下來我們請黃國昌委員質詢謝謝主席,馬上有請部長好,有請薛部長委員好"},{"start":12982.851,"end":13007.222,"text":"部長,我相信部長來自一屆對於台灣這麼方便的健保制度事實上是建立在所有醫護同仁的血汗之上這個現況我相信你一定有了解我不是來自一屆我事實上對健保的制度我也沒有什麼太深入的研究有一所以要說清楚但"},{"start":13009.383,"end":13032.417,"text":"我相信跟我有相同經歷的台灣民眾非常的多。我因為自己父親重病,我曾經在台大的家務病房的外面睡了30天。那30天的過程當中,讓我非常近距離的觀察我們的醫生跟我們的護理人員,他們到底有多辛苦。"},{"start":13033.717,"end":13043.275,"text":"也正是因為這個樣子去支持醫護能夠有更好的制度不能讓這個國家健保制度的維繫以及"},{"start":13046.277,"end":13072.753,"text":"一般民眾就醫的方便是建築在醫護同仁的血淚上我覺得這件事情我們大家都有共識那也正是因為這個樣子所以我們要解決這個問題的時候我其實有很仔細的聆聽部長剛剛回答的問題部長說健保值一點億元今天修過了也沒有辦法解決問題某個程度上我是同意您的說法"},{"start":13073.851,"end":13094.173,"text":"但我覺得另外一件事情也要講清楚就政治人物選前不要隨便開支票你開了支票就要兌現這個是我覺得一般民眾對政治人物的要求你不要選前跟大家說我要一點議員選後的時候開始藉口一堆"},{"start":13095.074,"end":13115.3,"text":"一般的民眾會想說奇怪你開選舉支票的時候怎麼沒講一堆藉口啊怎麼沒有講說一點議員那但還要如何如何如何如何那現在啦因為時間很尷尬您在18天就要脫離這個痛苦的位置了"},{"start":13116.821,"end":13143.899,"text":"所以那個政策進一步去問你恐怕您也說不出什麼具體的東西出來因為我也看了在相關問題的討論上的時候您曾經說過這個需要一個大型的審議會議大家針對整個健保制度怎麼整體的改善仔細的來討論好那就您所知我們目前當選的總統賴清德先生他心裡面已經胸有成竹"},{"start":13144.659,"end":13157.153,"text":"要怎麼樣進行全體的改革,履行他的政見而且不會發生你剛剛所講的狀況,即使調了一點議員,錢也不會落入醫事人員的口袋。"},{"start":13159.1,"end":13178.361,"text":"這部分的話我可能要再講一下啦。就是說在總統當選人他在講的是不低於0.9。但是...0.9也可以?所以今天你會贊成0.9嗎?0.9的話我覺得是可以的。今天喔?對,今天。因為這以財源來看的話是沒有問題。"},{"start":13180.349,"end":13204.787,"text":"但是如果0.95一點議員的話那可能就會有問題所以賴總統他也是提到就是說朝向那個目標去做前進我相信八大醫師團體他們的聲明他們的期待你應該都有聽到了那大家會質疑的就是說選前選後的態度其實要一致要不然一般民眾真的會"},{"start":13205.968,"end":13215.141,"text":"我覺得政治人物好像選舉支票亂開,開完就沒事了。選前是朝野同意就沒有難度嘛。那選後是會破壞制度嘛。"},{"start":13217.404,"end":13241.273,"text":"這個條件是不一樣我在講的是總額預算制度如果總額預算制度要拿掉的話只要朝野同意就沒有問題好沒關係啦等一下馬上會進行審議啦那時間到但我希望借兩分鐘的時間再幫我們的護理師能夠說幾句話三班護病筆入法本來是衛福部選前就要積極推動的事情嘛那"},{"start":13242.193,"end":13258.912,"text":" bicyn年我們的護病筆的確是有公告但是入法可能還要有一段的期間昨天五一勞動節的時候我相信有很多護理師的同仁他們也走上街頭了他們的訴求很明確就是說"},{"start":13259.853,"end":13279.344,"text":"三、國民黨黨團擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次"},{"start":13285.517,"end":13310.55,"text":"以目前來講,我們之前所估算的,如果要達到三萬戶病比,那全體來講,人員的缺額大概是7000多人。那我們目前一年是可以的,如果在我們各種措施之下,那人力可以補進來的,差不多是在,如果在醫院的部分,大概會在1500多人左右。這樣還要7年喔?沒有。"},{"start":13311.05,"end":13329.493,"text":"五七千是所有的包括診所的沒有關係因為時間到您就直接跟我講您覺得還需要多久我是覺得至少要四年的時間四年喔對哇那個跟戴總統開出來的證件差蠻多的還是戴總統他語言比較有藝術他說兩年內或他任內"},{"start":13331.193,"end":13351.09,"text":"兩年內的可以來入法,但是實施期間的話可能要有一些時間。沒關係啦,因為我知道您真的在18天就要走了。今天你剛剛如果做任何承諾我反而會懷疑你講話不老實,因為你做了承諾18天你就要走了嘛。但我利用這個機會就是呼籲新的政府。"},{"start":13352.014,"end":13379.769,"text":"要記得自己選前做了承諾三班互併比入法是我們非常多護理師他們共同的心聲好謝謝好謝謝黃國昌委員的質詢接下來我們請蔓玉珍蔓玉珍蔓玉珍委員不在王美惠王美惠王美惠委員不在謝一鳳謝一鳳謝一鳳委員不在陳亭飛陳亭飛陳亭飛委員不在何欣淳何欣淳何欣淳委員不在"},{"start":13380.287,"end":13381.828,"text":"我們請賴慧媛委員質詢。賴慧媛委員"},{"start":13394.918,"end":13417.502,"text":"蘇定,我想跟你請教一下,這個我們健保在民國84年開始實施以後已經接近這個30年,接近30年的時間。那其實長期以來基層醫師的這個點子一直是被詬病的。哇,我的助理沒有來。等一下,暫停一下。"},{"start":13430.566,"end":13433.307,"text":"政天才、政天才、政天才委員不在。我們請陳英委員質詢。"},{"start":13454.773,"end":13459.455,"text":"請施署長。今天討論的主題是如何保障醫護的權益。大家聚焦在這個點子的部分,我今天想要質詢的內容也是跟點子有關係。"},{"start":13481.305,"end":13510.299,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":13510.299,"end":13534.639,"text":" bicynny 人口數、收入情況、年齡分布、還有醫療資源等等。所以很多的影響因素在進行統計的時候,最後在進行預算分配的討論。一般是這樣。依照這個六個區,我們來看一下。其實這個六個區的分區,我們一起來看一下這個奇怪的地方。"},{"start":13535.52,"end":13552.478,"text":" bicyn Man 與 Lien Chiang 與臺北地區的環境與形態有相當大的差異。如果你們是按照專業的評估之後覺得離島應該是歸在臺北區,我們也只能尊重。"},{"start":13553.419,"end":13579.836,"text":"但是同樣離島的澎湖它是歸在這個高屏區這樣的分法是非常的怪異那後來呢我去追根究柢了解了一下我才知道說原來六個區的分區是依照你們組織法裡面的六個業務組然後是直接用六個業務組的模式做縣市分區然後直接做這個預算的分配"},{"start":13581.577,"end":13607.926,"text":"disciplinary,我知道你們對於這個偏鄉跟離島有很多這個支付模式調整的這個專案讓點數加成或者讓這個點值保障一的計劃但是最基礎的這個縣市分區有問題還是需要好好的來檢討因為過去有你們在總額分配的時候通常不會去考慮到交通障礙導致醫療成本太高這樣的一個問題"},{"start":13609.947,"end":13634.052,"text":"但是交通問題卻是影響離島醫療成本一個最大的因素。但影響層面包括醫療設備還有物資甚至在醫護的人力人才等等。讓金門連江醫院所的醫院醫療院所的這個點子跟臺北市一樣怎麼看就還是覺得很奇怪我不曉得署長對這件事情有什麼看法。"},{"start":13634.672,"end":13657.71,"text":"二、跟委員報告這個我們總額的分配是這樣我們先有一個大總額就是全國夏年度的總額之後會按照我們現在的六個分區的RS值去分配這個RS值就是主要是會考慮到人口的這個變化情形跟我們開辦之初的那個時候醫療的利用情形去做一個調教"},{"start":13658.911,"end":13664.496,"text":" bicyn Muen Lien Chiang等19人擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案案。」案。"},{"start":13674.065,"end":13701.36,"text":" bicy,第二個當然也會考慮到整個醫療的使用情形,那麼它還有後送,經常需要習慣要後送就醫的地方的流動,會大家一起考慮。所以我們的建議還是說,仍然是歸在臺北區,但是我們會有特別的一些保障措施,那麼包含在過去委員指導讓我們重新去思考,那麼也從今年5月1號開始,"},{"start":13702.301,"end":13720.292,"text":" bicyn Kwan- 三個離島的醫院的住院部分都是加成30%來讓他能夠落實去發展在地醫療提升病人能夠留在離島當地來醫療他所需要的一些成本。"},{"start":13720.452,"end":13742.108,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":13742.108,"end":13758.473,"text":"�⋯⋯"},{"start":13758.553,"end":13760.055,"text":" bicyn 如果他們的要求是合理的,那"},{"start":13774.053,"end":13795.052,"text":"adequah算一算其實數字會說話嘛所以我覺得大家就先不要太抗拒這件事情就大家來算一算那是不是說在未來現在的六區有沒有機會改成七個區那這個部分可以就是試算然後研議一下再來跟我們辦公室說明"},{"start":13795.452,"end":13822.602,"text":" ﻏ﹏﹏"},{"start":13822.602,"end":13822.622,"text":"полне好。"},{"start":13851.559,"end":13868.907,"text":"議長,今天我要再跟您討論一下健保補助的問題。這個是目前關於經濟弱勢的原住民長者補助健保費的資料。我們看一下低收入戶的全部都有補助,這個部分已經沒有問題。"},{"start":13869.907,"end":13895.323,"text":"但是我們再看一下中低收入戶的部分中低收入戶的原住民依照社會救助法的模式全部補助二分之一那70歲以上的原住民另外的二分之一則是依照你們的這個老人福利法把預算編列二分之一補起來那我們再看一下55到64歲的原住民也是一樣中低收入戶全部補助二分之一"},{"start":13895.643,"end":13912.67,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12條條文修正草案：立法院第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13"},{"start":13918.792,"end":13945.173,"text":" bicyn 他們也覺得很奇怪說怎麼過了65歲他卻要繳1⅔的這個保費他會覺得說怎麼年紀越大繳得越多補助反而越少了所以部長這樣子的狀況沒有注意到嗎?知道的話是1⅔是縣市補助1⅔中央補助對沒錯自己不用繳自己沒有說要繳不是有部分的縣市他們沒有"},{"start":13946.237,"end":13948.859,"text":" bicyn 今天如果這樣的質詢你們有注意到其他縣市有這樣的狀況那我們就統一大家一起看看"},{"start":13975.478,"end":13992.816,"text":"ymm�把它全部統一補齊也更好。有一件事情我跟委員報告一下。剛剛您問石書長的那件事情。欸我聽得不太清楚。就是說你剛剛詢問石書長那個是不是離島要成為自己獨立一個區域。我要跟委員報告是說這樣對離島不見得有益。"},{"start":13996.059,"end":14023.845,"text":"對,第一個就是說現在會有這種訴求應該就是那個金門馬祖啦因為他們跟那個台北區同一區嘛最近點子是比較下來的所以他們覺得說不放心啦但是我們可以藉由一些離島的方案來提高他的結束另外再做調整對對對這樣子是比較好要不然的話你如果給他一個總和齁你遇到那個觀光季節齁"},{"start":14025.426,"end":14029.765,"text":"一大堆外來客充一筆,你還是只能用那一塊總額。"},{"start":14030.811,"end":14055.896,"text":"閱讀。閱讀。閱讀。"},{"start":14055.936,"end":14057.257,"text":"接下來我們請賴會員委員進行視訊。謝謝主席。有請那個市署長。好請。市署長。"},{"start":14083.899,"end":14084.259,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具"},{"start":14095.708,"end":14124.991,"text":""},{"start":14124.991,"end":14146.493,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":14146.653,"end":14163.601,"text":"我要特別謝謝這個是我們的那個外務部部長還有就是署長其實你剛才特別在講到的就是說這個燈塔式的這個獨立總額其實你們兩位就是一屆的燈塔那我們也希望就是說看到了這一個明亮的地方"},{"start":14164.341,"end":14189.854,"text":" bicycyn醫療院所這個長期存在的一個困境點子沒有辦法調升點子沒有辦法調升甚至我們講到的就是在去年就是新冠肺炎在下一頁那就是說它的一個降級以後那就是衛務部的專案補助不見了那我們回歸到健保的一個總額那這總額以後我們發現更大的一個困難就是點子大幅的下降"},{"start":14190.774,"end":14219.807,"text":"adequ�的一個問題我要請教署長有沒有一個改善的方式呢?跟委員報告當然去年的這個點值會有大幅的下降一方面是因為疫情的關係所以那個後面就用這個我們的一個健保基金去補那個點值所以最終都是把它保證到0.9這是一個那第二個我們在整個分析之後如果跟疫情前相比"},{"start":14220.447,"end":14225.889,"text":" bicyn 此慢性處方簽在基層就醫的情形有增加。 bicyn 此慢性處方簽在基層就醫的情形有增加。"},{"start":14243.496,"end":14266.372,"text":"bedingt 因為我們過去以減表也就是日資藥費的支付方式就有很大的那個藥費的落差因為慢性病病人的藥費是比較高的所以就會影響到整個基層的總額所以也就是說未來在整個總額的設算上面特別是基層總額的部分我們也要另外再有一些調整的機制"},{"start":14267.493,"end":14290.154,"text":"謝謝署長。我想這個漫遷的一個用藥的調整其實是在這一次就是整個那個疫情那個降級以後點植的這一個大家引起基層上的一個很大的一個恐慌我們有做到一個很好的一個益備也就是一個補償那針對的就是說我們的預算的一個預估不準確"},{"start":14291.135,"end":14318.234,"text":"�"},{"start":14318.755,"end":14319.135,"text":"議員王育敏等"},{"start":14339.889,"end":14366.783,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":14369.232,"end":14370.676,"text":"電費的補貼目前是指?"},{"start":14375.736,"end":14383.361,"text":"在3月27日的時候,行政院有一個協商會議裡面。去整醫療院所?它目前是在那個部分是說列入明年的那個總額,就是整醫療機構裡面列入明年的總額去協商。所以就表示是沒有的?對。"},{"start":14400.486,"end":14430.094,"text":"�"},{"start":14430.174,"end":14430.354,"text":"好,請署長﹖"},{"start":14463.769,"end":14467.951,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":14479.338,"end":14481.179,"text":"ympt."},{"start":14481.179,"end":14504.492,"text":"跟委員報告就是說第一部齁那麼離島的醫院幾乎都是燈塔型醫院啦所以我們先在 因為離島的雖然它比如說澎湖好了澎湖有三家醫院啦當然主要醫院是兩家是我們三種的澎湖分院跟我們部立澎湖醫院為主另外還有一個惠民醫院那"},{"start":14504.872,"end":14528.353,"text":""},{"start":14528.473,"end":14529.114,"text":" bicyn Kwan-kwan"},{"start":14558.353,"end":14562.177,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":14575.769,"end":14600.139,"text":"adequ?因為其實我大概也講一下就是說其實金門早期有兩家醫院然後後來合併成功了那澎湖經過了一段大概在2000年左右有一段時間因為兩院的合併出了一些問題所以也造成澎湖"},{"start":14601.66,"end":14607.985,"text":"醫療史上最黑暗的時候,那現在兩家醫院就是有一個問題,這我的看法就是雖然有兩家可是兩家都不夠完整"},{"start":14621.457,"end":14639.531,"text":"而兩家加起來又大概就是加起來大概就是1.3家醫院的量能所以把這兩家醫院這三家醫院列為燈塔醫院然後在有關住院"},{"start":14642.935,"end":14670.387,"text":"Reporter 蘇長,因為跟委員報告我們在考慮燈塔型醫院的時候一定會除了考慮當地的人口變化之外也會考慮到他的交通動線那因為這個離島的交通不如本島的方便後送商都有一定的障礙所以我們一定會有特別的考慮"},{"start":14673.392,"end":14677.58,"text":"對,對,這個欸,其實,其實就是不管是"},{"start":14679.121,"end":14705.028,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次"},{"start":14707.422,"end":14713.964,"text":"委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。案。"},{"start":14735.436,"end":14758.984,"text":" bicyn 像衛福部近年推了很多項的醫療資源的整合相關政策比如說家庭醫師的整合照護計畫然後分級醫療等等那這個當然就是在推動上、成效上其實"},{"start":14761.98,"end":14774.678,"text":"cellence Department and the Legislative Department of the Legislative Department of the Legislative Department of the Legislative Department of the Legislative Department of the Legislative Department of the Legislative Department of the Legislative Department of"},{"start":14775.751,"end":14799.886,"text":"怎麼讓它落實?這兩個部分分級醫療本來就是一個比較困難去推動,因為我們的制度裡面民眾就醫是自由的。所以它並沒有說要先去看一個守門員,也就是家庭醫師,之後的話轉診才可以到醫院去。我們沒有這樣的制度,所以分級醫療本來在處理的時候就會比較困難。"},{"start":14800.926,"end":14820.041,"text":"至於剛剛委員有提到一個家庭醫師整合顯示,這個是我們逐步在推動而且會有成效的。這個現在我在澎湖觀察是做得不錯。對,這個成效會出來。而且現在是我們健保署這邊已經把這個所謂的在宅醫療的範圍要擴大。"},{"start":14822.703,"end":14842.93,"text":" bicyn 會有更多的基層醫師來投入,這部分對民眾,尤其是我們老年化的社會來臨,對於一些失能、就醫不便的民眾是非常重要的,所以這個一定會是越來越好。"},{"start":14845.612,"end":14873.354,"text":"因為分級醫療就是有涉及轉診像我這邊的資料就是我們台灣原本的預定是兩千萬兩百萬人口有一家醫學中心那現在我算一算我們已經有二十二家醫學中心然後大概就是平均一百萬人就有一家那醫學中心太多"},{"start":14874.668,"end":14896.805,"text":"對於區議院的排擠,像剛剛部長也講嘛,就是我們民眾本來就可以自行選擇嘛。醫學中心多了,對區議院本身就有排擠。然後呢,就是醫學中心假如說未經轉診門診的部分,未經轉診門診的部分負擔費用是420,"},{"start":14903.31,"end":14903.791,"text":"對,是很高。"},{"start":14933.731,"end":14937.975,"text":" bicyn Kwan-kwan-kwan"},{"start":14957.591,"end":14965.359,"text":"我們也發現上轉下轉上的轉整的比例高可是呢上轉下"},{"start":14967.745,"end":14993.401,"text":"adequ..的案件其實並不常見。這個能不能也看有什麼方法可以。因為第一就是醫學中心的資源縱使現在已經設到22家他總是最終的守護者嘛。他的資源應該要給最需要的人。那另外一個就是"},{"start":14995.162,"end":15018.78,"text":" unintendent to the district Council, even to the District Council, to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even to the District Council, even"},{"start":15019.161,"end":15035.884,"text":"好 謝謝本日會議詢答全部結束現在做以下決議一、說明及詢答完畢二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資料者請相關機關於兩周內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其鎖定現在請宣讀提案條文內容"},{"start":15036.707,"end":15063.842,"text":"全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案委員王育敏等19人提案委員蘇清泉等28人提案國民黨黨團提案現行法條文對照表委員王育敏等19人提案國民黨黨團提案修正第六十二條第三項如下保險人因依前條分配後之醫療給付費用總額及經其審查後之醫療服務總點數和算每點費用為每點平均點值不得低於0.95"},{"start":15065.263,"end":15091.306,"text":"並按各保險醫療服務機構經審查後之點數和付其費用,超過每年度醫療給付費用總額之部分由中央主管機關編列預算致應,其予以現行法同。委員蘇清泉等28人提案,第62條第三具前段句末增列,逗號若每點費用低於一元時,由政府公務預算補足至一元等文字,其予以現行法同。宣讀完畢。"},{"start":15093.117,"end":15105.455,"text":"好,我們現在進行全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案之審查。請委員表示意見。好,有沒有人要表示意見?蘇委員。都可以。"},{"start":15124.249,"end":15129.534,"text":"今天提這個案子事實上民進黨的委員大家也我們沒意見"},{"start":15130.68,"end":15133.202,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":15162.944,"end":15184.793,"text":"這個案子如果過,會牽扯到什麼法案啊,到處要怎麼改啊,要改什麼改什麼。我跟你講,這個案子如果沒有先案,外部也沒什麼壓力啦。沒壓力就直接拖啦。第三點,這個醫療到現在已經是不得不處理啦。"},{"start":15185.953,"end":15204.642,"text":"adequ不得不處理為什麼很多今天早上委員不管藍綠都提出來了我們的醫療品質是在下降我們的平均移民輸韓國輸日本香港、澳門、新加坡都輸我們的癌症品質也在下降所以我們必須要很嚴肅的來正視這個問題"},{"start":15207.267,"end":15219.392,"text":"netesure 提這個案會崩盤?健保會崩盤會怎樣?我們都可以討論。所以呢我在這邊跟大家報告就是,事實上我早上一直在跟王委員、楊耀大家都有討論就是說,"},{"start":15222.329,"end":15226.87,"text":"好 謝謝蘇委員還有沒有委員要發言?還有沒有委員要發言?"},{"start":15250.543,"end":15254.341,"text":"好,來,剛剛是楊委員先嘛,來王正旭委員還有陳昭芝委員,來。"},{"start":15257.597,"end":15281.823,"text":"好,謝謝主席。依照剛剛蘇委員的建議,從醫界的角度,的確醫界這幾年來透過很多很多醫療服務的情形之下,是很多委屈,包括很血汗的部分。那當然從這個,我本身也是醫界出身,所以我非常認同健保。"},{"start":15282.363,"end":15310.715,"text":" bicyn 目前的制度一定要做適度的調控跟做修正那怎麼修正或是怎麼研議如果能夠讓保護全民健康的同時也能夠讓整個醫療環境可以更好這個是一種可能性那在面對這個可能性的時候等一下也要麻煩我們的這個行政部門這邊讓我們了解一下如果說依照現在的這個修正動議來看的話"},{"start":15312.056,"end":15328.427,"text":" bicyn 如欲每年度醫療給付總額應由中央政府特種基金或公務預算經費支應。那這些特種基金或者是公務預算的這部分在編列的時候是要根據現有的規範"},{"start":15329.428,"end":15329.448,"text":"議員王"},{"start":15346.5,"end":15361.037,"text":"如果要這樣做的話在實際執行上會碰到哪一種困境也要麻煩行政部門這邊讓我們多了解因為我認為未來在執行上如果碰到這個困境的時候我們應該還有哪一些因應的部分"},{"start":15361.537,"end":15376.921,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全民健康保險法第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全民健康保險法第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全民健康保險法第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13次全民健康保險法第12會期社會福利及衛生環境"},{"start":15386.923,"end":15399.616,"text":"則不至於引起除了在針對醫界的照顧的同時也要從這個全民的這個需求或者是對這個影響能夠把它減到最低以上好陳昭志委員"},{"start":15409.155,"end":15433.729,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":15434.029,"end":15458.202,"text":"我用三個數據來形容我們只用3.5個GDP來cover涵蓋健保但是這個check out涵蓋了百分之百的民眾這兩個數字在全世界都是奇蹟就是你用3.5%的GDP可以照顧百分之百這是奇蹟然後加上這個包山包海從感冒發燒咳嗽流鼻水到這個寒冰中病致死性疾病重大疾病全部都涵蓋在裡面這個叫血汗"},{"start":15458.882,"end":15487.261,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":15487.261,"end":15516.937,"text":""},{"start":15516.937,"end":15543.626,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":15543.626,"end":15573.183,"text":""},{"start":15573.905,"end":15586.822,"text":"我當主席你就是當委員阿對不對部長你一直否定我的那個資格阿對我在那邊29年聘書是你發的我還在等你的獎章欸對不過我也得過獎章阿我跟你講矮要矮要齁平均787天"},{"start":15588.865,"end":15615.606,"text":""},{"start":15615.606,"end":15632.432,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":15632.432,"end":15633.333,"text":" unintendent"},{"start":15648.285,"end":15665.145,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":15665.505,"end":15690.664,"text":"韓國百分之七十我們是六十各位不要再沉浸於不要再沉浸於臺灣世界這個醫療第一了剛剛連楊浩文都有談到這個蘇維也有談到我們蘇添添啦蘇添添我們蘇就這樣但是不是醫師不好不是整個醫療投資是不夠的好那我也希望這個以藥養醫早上當然上次不過一個月前部長跟我說藥價差是四百億啦他今天進步了一點點啦齁"},{"start":15692.125,"end":15716.783,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":15716.783,"end":15734.889,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":15734.889,"end":15757.705,"text":"�"},{"start":15757.705,"end":15783.609,"text":""},{"start":15783.609,"end":15805.64,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":15805.64,"end":15826.544,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":15826.544,"end":15839.036,"text":""},{"start":15839.608,"end":15852.597,"text":"�二、國民黨黨團擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次"},{"start":15866.067,"end":15889.24,"text":"bedingt bundle payment,就是說如果你做得好,以結果來論,這群人照顧得很好,我們就給你更好的包裹給你幾副。我想這個有一些品質的方案的進來,就不會讓大家疑慮說,也當政府擔心說,你就一直充一直充,那我們現在把點子天花板都打開了,那會不會浪費錢。確實有時候不免如此。所以我們希望有一些相對的配套措施。那我們黨,我們支持0.5。謝謝。"},{"start":15893.602,"end":15902.484,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案》案。厲典黨團擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案》案。厲典黨團擬具"},{"start":15924.264,"end":15926.84,"text":"謝謝主席。主席我先請教石署長。"},{"start":15928.749,"end":15929.77,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15929.77,"end":15929.83,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15929.83,"end":15929.89,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15929.89,"end":15930.631,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15930.631,"end":15930.891,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15930.891,"end":15931.491,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15931.491,"end":15931.691,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15931.691,"end":15931.972,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15931.972,"end":15932.232,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15932.232,"end":15932.452,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15932.452,"end":15932.652,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15932.652,"end":15932.852,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15932.852,"end":15933.073,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15933.073,"end":15933.253,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15933.253,"end":15933.473,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15933.473,"end":15933.673,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15933.673,"end":15934.073,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15934.073,"end":15934.274,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15934.274,"end":15934.594,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15934.594,"end":15935.054,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15935.054,"end":15935.555,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15935.555,"end":15935.995,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15935.995,"end":15936.816,"text":"你還要諮詢喔?"},{"start":15936.816,"end":15937.096,"text":"你還要諮詢喔"},{"start":15955.287,"end":15975.977,"text":"好請問我只是確定這一件我為什麼確定這一件呢就我們從整個保險的概念來看應該是要先檢討保險費率而不是先用公務基金撥補就是說我們法定的上限保險費率保險費率提高"},{"start":15976.988,"end":16004.309,"text":""},{"start":16005.492,"end":16026.854,"text":"我是從不管你1.1塊、1.0.8塊我全部反對的。我是全部反對的因為我覺得必須要健保是一個強制性的社會保險。我們還是要先從保險的概念來看。為什麼我反對用公務預算來撥補呢?"},{"start":16028.967,"end":16057.164,"text":"這個大家必須要想想看,勞保造成了多大的一個洞。假如說健保也比照這樣子來做處理,這個合不合理?這個第一點。第二點,醫療品質假如不好,到底跟醫生的收入有沒有直接相關聯?是不是必然的因果關係?"},{"start":16061.911,"end":16082.384,"text":"我的看法還有另外一個觀點就是雖然強制的社會保險可是被保險人必須要強制醫療院所可以自行脫離健保體系的這個觀念應該沒有錯你可以存自費你假如認為"},{"start":16087.176,"end":16108.199,"text":" adjac.1.只有0.8,你覺得你覺得沒好,你可以退出健保體系,你收自費。我覺得大家應該真的要認真想一想,老保帶給政府多大的財政黑洞,健保再加一筆,這個到底好不好?"},{"start":16109.093,"end":16130.798,"text":"我最後還是要講一句話,就是說我來自澎湖,我在未還已經13年了。其實我向來支持醫界,這個很多醫界的朋友也都知道。為什麼?因為醫事人員的待遇不好,或者是醫事人員的工作環境不好,醫療品質就沒有辦法提升。"},{"start":16131.834,"end":16152.671,"text":"�"},{"start":16153.592,"end":16176.357,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":16176.966,"end":16192.193,"text":"那假如說今天一定要出委員會,那我希望連帶所有的附帶決議、附帶的修正條文全部一起送出。好,謝謝大家。好,謝謝。我們現在先休息五分鐘。"},{"start":16201.892,"end":16202.552,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具"},{"start":16436.084,"end":16436.324,"text":"二、國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":16508.444,"end":16527.532,"text":"好,我們繼續開會,那剛剛那個林淑芬委員要拔眼來請。好,我再講一次,就是說因為我們看到這個看病的總人口數其實就是越來越多,那所以這個總的支出面的擴大是不可避免的。"},{"start":16528.052,"end":16544.289,"text":"netesure 面的這個擴大是一定也是必然的狀況裡面我們到底要不要檢討總額管制的這個制度那因為他就會連動到點值那這種狀況裡面支出面的擴大那會牽扯到那收入面財源要怎麼解決的問題那"},{"start":16546.531,"end":16554.34,"text":" bicylson 調整保費是一種,那這種基金或公務預算來也都是一種可能。但是我們的意思是說,現在今天這些問題是結構上出問題,你現在在這一條法律上定死了,把它定死了,連察言都給它講死了,這會不會造成一種失去了彈性。"},{"start":16567.875,"end":16590.742,"text":"�"},{"start":16591.633,"end":16610.129,"text":"好了我們請廖偉祥委員發言接下來是陳金輝委員接下來黃秀芳謝謝主席我簡單講過去所有參選總統的候選人在面對這個議事團體的時候選前都信誓旦旦開支票承諾要改革健保保障點子選後都默默裝傻都跳票"},{"start":16610.729,"end":16611.13,"text":" bicylfman"},{"start":16630.777,"end":16653.867,"text":"好,我們請陳金輝委員。早上很多人看到自由時報有一篇文章叫做CEO World評比台灣醫療是第一名結果剛剛台大醫院我們台灣醫學中心的燈塔指標院長出來講說這個第一名是血汗醫護換來的所以"},{"start":16654.667,"end":16673.882,"text":""},{"start":16673.882,"end":16702.193,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":16702.473,"end":16716.47,"text":"好其實很明顯陳委員陳昭芝委員已經講了要用這個PUA的方法叫大家要繳健保費結果呢其實就是GDP不足啊GDP不足全世界的報告都已經告訴你了"},{"start":16717.551,"end":16743.899,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":16743.899,"end":16765.623,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":16765.623,"end":16781.391,"text":"�"},{"start":16783.553,"end":16789.555,"text":"二、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。一、委員黃秀芳等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案。"},{"start":16807.841,"end":16824.872,"text":""},{"start":16831.243,"end":16837.527,"text":"我請教署長當時在健保上路的時候健保署是採支出嘛但是主計是採收入公司不同分母是不一樣的喔"},{"start":16855.998,"end":16873.831,"text":""},{"start":16873.831,"end":16890.725,"text":""},{"start":16893.187,"end":16912.219,"text":"這個有兩個層面,一個是這個36%算的時候是以收來推估還是以支來計算。那麼這個其實各有利弊。像我們這幾年補充保費收得好的時候,以收來計算政府的負擔比較多。"},{"start":16914.582,"end":16936.647,"text":""},{"start":16937.315,"end":16939.839,"text":" bicyn Kwan-Ni-Tung"},{"start":16952.222,"end":16971.937,"text":"adequ年的做法都是以收就是說民間所收來的那麼我們去推除以百分之六十四算成總總數之後那扣掉民間2017年整個都已經死亡交叉了就是不夠所以基本上疫情先不管去年的收大於資"},{"start":16973.078,"end":16974.598,"text":" bicyn 根據這個法?不是啊 這跟今天要討論的就無關了"},{"start":16990.848,"end":16992.088,"text":"我現在做一下決議因為剛剛大家有共識齁"},{"start":17014.117,"end":17041.226,"text":"我能不能因為我們今天這個點子的問題其實就牽扯到醫事人員的收入因為大概醫療醫事人員醫事人員那我能我不知道衛福部這邊有沒有有沒有就是醫生的收入的資料"},{"start":17043.626,"end":17067.424,"text":"因為我們要看看到底是不是真的很偏低比如說法官跟檢察官也算是學法律裡面最高的精英那他們的收入我在看也了不起不到20萬那看醫師的平均收入"},{"start":17068.485,"end":17078.998,"text":"唉呦,我在看應該三、四十萬都有啦,齁?沒有?這樣喔?各有不同嘛齁?各有..."},{"start":17082.014,"end":17098.001,"text":"哦!好!那就講到重點就是說到底醫療院所分配到的是不是有利益精湛讓整個醫療體系的人都可以獲得適當的工作報酬這個問題我覺得也是一個重點"},{"start":17104.404,"end":17131.479,"text":"就是說不能不能夠我們在討論大概都是覺得好像醫院虧錢可是大家又拼命往醫學中心擠醫生好像收入很差可是大家又一直要讀醫學院這個我不大懂我聽不下去了"},{"start":17133.72,"end":17143.676,"text":"啊我講兩分鐘就好兩分鐘就好兩分鐘就好我跟大家報告今天在講點子點子是一個國啦國齁那"},{"start":17148.877,"end":17167.633,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12屆議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第12屆議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第12屆議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第12屆議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第12屆議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第12屆議員王育敏"},{"start":17170.58,"end":17190.131,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12屆議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第12屆議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第12屆議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第12屆議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第12屆議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第12屆議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第12屆"},{"start":17195.629,"end":17220.997,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12次全民健康保險法第6次全民健康保險法第6次全民健康保險法第6次全民健康保險法第6次全民健康保險法第6次全民健康保險法第6次全民健康保險法第6次全民健康保險法第6次全民健康保險法第6次全民健康保險法第6次全民健康保險法第6次全民健康保險法第6次全民健康保險法第6次全民健康保險法第6次全民健康保險法第6次全民健康保險法第"},{"start":17222.546,"end":17230.77,"text":"現在醫生都...我沒有這樣說...我沒有這樣說...我沒有這樣說...現在吼...現在...我沒有這樣說...現在吼...現在吼...現在吼...現在吼...現在吼...現在吼...現在吼...現在吼...現在吼...現在吼...現在吼...現在吼...現在吼..."},{"start":17244.099,"end":17248.24,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具〈全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案〉案"},{"start":17270.851,"end":17274.676,"text":"現在做以下決議。全民健保法第六十二條條文修正草案計三案審查完略。"},{"start":17286.83,"end":17305.841,"text":"並按審據審查報告提報院會討論。院會討論本案時由王昭吉委員玉敏補充說明,包括修正動議一件,附帶動議三件,交由黨團協商。本次會議到此結束,現在散會。謝謝大家。"}]}},{"id":"15870","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15870","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528ee1784ed6585ee25e7931ae751f1d07213be8d109af184be4d4d847a5362be9aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查或處理「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算(112至113年度)」及「中央政府疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算」決議：\n一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。\n二、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案9案。\n三、有關交通部主管預算凍結書面報告案14案。\n四、有關行政院農業委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n五、有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結書面報告案11案。\n六、有關文化部主管預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n七、有關數位發展部主管預算凍結書面報告案7案。\n八、有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n九、有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n十、有關行政院環境保護署預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n十一、有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-02","start_time":"2024-05-02T08:31:47+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15,19,22,23,26],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15,19,22,23,26-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-02T15:46:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":26053,"委員發言時間":"08:31:47 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112至113年度決議：一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。"},{"start":2043.308,"end":2067.92,"text":"一、國民及學前教育署第二目城鄉建設預算凍結50萬元。二、國民及學前教育署第三目人才培育促進就業建設向下2030雙語政策計畫預算凍結500萬元。三、體育署第二目城鄉建設第一節充實全民運動環境預算凍結1000萬元。二、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案2案。一、工業局第三目人才培育促進就業建設"},{"start":2069.241,"end":2092.364,"text":"向下,數位與特殊技術人才發展與數位與特殊技術人才養成及人才培育交流平台推動計畫預算凍結300萬元。二、中小企業處第2目人才培育促進教育建設向下,數位與特殊技術人才發展之中小企業數位領導、中小企業二代接班人數位成長計畫預算凍結10分之1。三、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案8案。"},{"start":2093.985,"end":2118.513,"text":"交通部主管預算凍結1000萬元。2、觀光局及所屬第1目水環境建設第1節水域環境向下全國水環境改善計畫遊戲據點預算凍結1。3、觀光局及所屬第2目城鄉建設第1節推動觀光升級預算凍結1。4、公路總局及所屬第4目綠燃建設向下公共充電裝設置及區域充電需求評估計畫預算凍結1。5、"},{"start":2120.854,"end":2146.246,"text":"一、公路總局及所屬第4目綠營建設預算凍結10分之1。六、公路總局及所屬第6目城鄉建設第1節改善停車問題計畫預算凍結4000萬元。七、公路總局及所屬第6目城鄉建設第2節提升道路品質預算凍結10分之1。八、鐵路局及所屬第4目城鄉建設第1節推動觀光升級預算凍結10分之1。四、有關行政和農業委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案。一、"},{"start":2147.326,"end":2165.046,"text":"該會第二幕,綠燃建設預算凍結200萬元書面報告案。二、零五期第一幕,軌道建設第一節,中南部觀光鐵路向下鐵路局阿里山林業鐵路設施設備安全提升計畫預算凍結3%。五、有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結書面報告案8案。一、"},{"start":2166.574,"end":2192.276,"text":"2、該部第2幕城鄉建設預算凍結20萬元。2、該部第2幕城鄉建設第1屆公共服務據點整備預算凍結200萬元。3、國民健康署第1幕城鄉建設第1屆公共服務據點整備向下獎補助費資銀髮健身俱樂部補助計畫預算凍結100萬元。4、社會及家庭署第1幕城鄉建設第1屆公共服務據點整備預算凍結100萬元。5、社會及家庭署第2幕因應少子化有善育兒空間建設預算凍結2000萬元。6、"},{"start":2194.558,"end":2217.618,"text":"2、社會及家庭署第2目因應少子化友善育兒空間建設向下建構0至2歲兒童社區公共推計畫預算凍結100萬元。7、社會及家庭署第2目因應少子化友善育兒空間建設預算凍結100萬元。8、社會及家庭署第2目因應少子化友善育兒空間建設預算凍結100萬元。6、有關文化部預算凍結200萬元。"},{"start":2219.775,"end":2241.216,"text":"七、有關數位發展部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。一、該部第一幕數位建設預算凍結500萬元。二、該部第一幕數位建設第一節基礎建設環境預算凍結1000萬元。三、自動安全署第一幕數位建設預算凍結10分之1。四、自動安全署第一幕數位建設第一節基礎建設與環境向下政府基層"},{"start":2242.097,"end":2267.664,"text":"基層機關資安主動防疫計畫預算凍結3000萬元。二、處理中央政府疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算決議。有關經濟部第二幕：推動產業及中小企業升級轉型之輔導傳統市集品牌化,進行空間美學優化,協助攤部會導入低碳化經營,並推動人才培育及行銷活動等所需經費預算凍結3000萬元書面報告案。宣布完畢。"},{"start":2271.407,"end":2293.441,"text":"請問各位委員,針對以上預算解凍案書面報告有無異議?無異議。書面報告完成,准予動之提報院會。為了疏解會場的人數,報告事項已解凍的三級機關的首長,請留下來。幕僚人員可以准予回機關辦公。"},{"start":2300.618,"end":2303.39,"text":"接著,討論事項有關於中央政府前瞻計畫"},{"start":2305.748,"end":2330.523,"text":"前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算解凍案書面報告24案,包括原民會主管1案、內政部主管2案、教育部主管1案、經濟部主管6案、交通部4案、行政院農業部主管1案、衛福部主管3案、行政院環保署環境部主管1案。"},{"start":2332.367,"end":2347.868,"text":"訴發部主管3案。國科會主管2案。及中央政府疫後強化經濟及社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算解凍案書面報告3案。包括內政部主管1案及交通部主管2案。請議事人員確讀。"},{"start":2356.159,"end":2384.985,"text":"審查中央政府前瞻基礎建設第4期特別預算 112至103年度決議：一、有關原住民族委員會第2幕城鄉建設第二節推動原住民族多元產業發展2.0預算凍結600萬元。二、有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案2案。一、本部該部第一案第一幕數位建設第一節基礎建設環境預算凍結十分之一。二、該部第一幕數位建設第一節基礎建設環境預算凍結十分之一。三、有關教育部第三幕人才培育促進就業建設"},{"start":2386.005,"end":2410.595,"text":"預算凍結500萬元。四、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案6案。一、公安局第4目利用建設向下電動物流車補助計畫預算凍結100萬元。二、水利署及所屬第二目水環境建設第一節水域發展向下優惠費之烏溪鳥嘴潭人工湖工程計畫預算凍結5000萬元。三、水利署及所屬第二目水環境建設第二節水域安全向下縣市管"},{"start":2411.704,"end":2416.21,"text":"核穿及區域排水整體改善計畫預算凍結8000萬元。4."},{"start":2416.21,"end":2421.157,"text":"能源局第1目綠能建設向下業務費預算凍結400萬元。5."},{"start":2421.157,"end":2425.423,"text":"能源局第1目綠能建設向下去碳技術示範及人才培育計畫預算凍結200萬元。6."},{"start":2425.423,"end":2425.824,"text":"能源局第2目"},{"start":2428.007,"end":2445.99,"text":"二、綠營建設向下東部地區第6鑽井計畫預算凍結100萬元。五、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。一、觀光局所屬第二幕,城鄉建設第一節推動觀光升級預算凍結500萬元。二、運輸研究所第二幕,綠營建設向下公共充電裝設置及區域充電需求評估計畫之。"},{"start":2447.335,"end":2461.766,"text":"別辦理電動車、公共充電樁設施、設置、需求評估等所需經費預算凍結十分之一。3、鐵道局局所屬第二幕、軌道建設第一節、台鐵升級及改善東部服務預算凍結一千萬元。4、鐵道局局所屬第二幕、軌道建設第四節、軌道規劃計畫。"},{"start":2464.148,"end":2484.9,"text":"五、軌道規劃作業預算凍結10分之1。六、有關行政和農業委員會林業試驗所第一目綠營建設預算凍結20分之1。七、有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。一、食品藥物管理署第一目食品安全建設預算凍結10分之1。二、食品藥物管理署第一目食品安全建設向下獎補助費預算凍結300萬元。"},{"start":2486.641,"end":2507.157,"text":"三、食品藥物管理署第1目食品安全建設向下食品安全建設計畫之提升新興傳染性疾病醫藥品及食衣性病人檢驗研究量能及標準化預算凍結500萬元。八、有關行政及環境保護署第2目綠營建設預算凍結100萬元。九、有關數位發展部主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。以該部第1目"},{"start":2507.917,"end":2526.136,"text":"數位建設第2節5G基礎公共建設向下補助5G網路建設計畫預算凍結10分之1。二、自動安全署第1目數位建設第1節基礎建設環境向下台灣資安卓業深耕資安卓業中心計畫預算凍結500萬元。三、數位產業署第1目數位建設第2節產業數位"},{"start":2528.298,"end":2551.714,"text":"轉型向下引領中小微型企業數位轉型戰略攻頂計畫預算凍結10分之1。十、有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案。一、該會第二幕數位建設第一節建構開放政府及智慧城鄉服務預算凍結500萬元。二、該會第三幕人才培育促進交易建設向下青年科技創新創業基地建設計畫預算凍結300萬元書面報告案。"},{"start":2554.698,"end":2568.423,"text":"二、審查中央政府疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算決議：一、有關內政部營建署及所屬第一幕減輕居住負擔及提高居住品質預算凍結1000萬元。二、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案2案。一、"},{"start":2570.444,"end":2598.64,"text":"觀光局及所屬第一幕加速擴大吸引國際觀光客預算凍結3000萬元。二、公務務總局及所屬第一幕擴大公共運輸補貼減輕通勤族群交通負擔預算凍結100萬元書面報告案。宣讀完畢。好,謝謝。我想我再說明一下為了紓解會場的人潮沒有討論事項那除了機關所長需要留下來之外其他的三級機關的所長可以先行離開"},{"start":2600.322,"end":2628.823,"text":"那我們左手邊如果太擁擠的話我們二樓這邊的會場還可以使用好那因為今天的這一個登記發言的委員人數高達61人那因此呢我們待會的這一個部會呢我們就重點報告那也相關部會主要部會來進行說明好現在請主要請經濟部跟交通部來進行報告就可以了現在請相關部會所長就主管預算結算案依序報告"},{"start":2630.727,"end":2632.252,"text":"請經濟部林全仁常務次長報告"},{"start":2643.393,"end":2664.033,"text":"主席、各位委員、經濟部就主管前瞻基礎建設第4期特別預算以及中央政府疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算所作預算凍結討論事項6案依序來作報告。請各位參著書面報告的第二頁。"},{"start":2665.234,"end":2671.857,"text":"首先,第一案是針對我們產業發展署所執行的綠能建設電動物流車補助計畫預算凍結0.01億元一案來進行說明。本計畫是以電動物流車4萬維推動目標"},{"start":2681.641,"end":2697.191,"text":"串聯車廠關鍵零組件廠技術能量整合車廠物流業者及設備供應商開發符合市場需求之物流車款目前已合併補助兩案補助業者投入車型開發及示範運行共投入54輛3.5噸及34輛1.95噸之電動小貨車依據每車可減碳約63%應用場域包括一般的物流大賣場的配送"},{"start":2709.64,"end":2726.474,"text":"農會、小農集收、集送及共享自行車載運調度等本計畫將推動關鍵零組件國產化及國產電動車以加速車輛產業轉型及綠色運輸的願景。2、是本部水利署及所屬來執行的水環境建設向下"},{"start":2727.575,"end":2748.256,"text":"烏溪鳥嘴潭人工湖工程計畫是辦理人工湖工程景觀綠美化及周邊環境改善預算凍結0.5億元案進行說明本項預算系會執行環境監測評估、水域生態調查及生態環境友善等措施以符合環評承諾及落實生態保育措施"},{"start":2748.857,"end":2767.286,"text":"查鳥水潭人工湖112年10月所以完成全部6個湖區主體工程並供水資下游進水場處理後供應彰化及南投地區、維南區持續辦理景觀、綠美化及環境監測調查等工作以創造優質水域環境帶動地方經濟發展。"},{"start":2769.708,"end":2792.844,"text":"3、本部水利署及所屬所執行的水環境建設所以安全向下縣市管河川及區域排水整體改善計畫預算凍結0.8元一項進行說明本計畫依據各縣市管河川排水治理計畫針對各縣市高淹水風險地區排水加速改善本部水利署於執行過程中"},{"start":2793.985,"end":2813.559,"text":"召開地方說明會以參佐民意,使施政更符合民眾的期待。該署每月邀請各縣市政府召開控管會議、滾動檢討執行情形,並透過河川分署溝通平台會議協助解決遭遇困難,務使計畫經會發揮最大的治水成效。"},{"start":2814.119,"end":2831.196,"text":"本計畫成果良好,受到各界普遍認可,且考量受氣候影響甚具有推動迫切性經濟卻有時需,以利於計畫如期如子完工,提供更完善的防洪設施。4本部能源署執行綠能建設業務會預算凍結0.04億元進行說明。"},{"start":2835.578,"end":2861.999,"text":"每項預算系會辦理葉劉電池儲能系統技術驗證、Megawatt等級儲能電池健康檢測及評估技術等計畫,用於推動大型葉劉電池系統技術驗證場域建立、進行長時間儲能系統性能實驗場域與效能的評估,並開發國內自主Megawatt等級儲能電池健康檢測及評估的技術,提升系統可靠度與儲能暗場運轉效益。"},{"start":2863.72,"end":2892.097,"text":"除能系統為國內再生能源發電佔比提高之重要配套本項計畫成果有助供電穩定加速除能設置及確保系統安全並可提升民眾對除能系統應用與生活的接受度第5項是本部能源署執行綠能建設去探技術示範及人才培育計畫預算凍結0.02億元一案進行說明本項預算需於台南沙崙智慧綠能科學城場域設置"},{"start":2892.857,"end":2899.144,"text":"策試及驗證高占比再生能源情境所需相關淨敏技術的導入,包含綠電產銷與管理驗證平台智慧"},{"start":2903.696,"end":2925.505,"text":"自衛能源區域實證平台與氫能失換驗證平台等工作項目,執行重點為盤點綠電交易制度,完成國內綠電轉供估算平台的雛型,提供公務車綠色充電服務及建立彈性電能轉供量計算的機制等,有助發展我國自由技術及達成國家近年轉型的目標。"},{"start":2927.046,"end":2946.518,"text":"是本部能源署執行綠能建設東部地區地熱專井計畫預算凍結0.01元一案進行說明。本項預算系規劃於宜蘭土產地區專找4口地熱井及於南陽平原專找1口深層地熱碳勘井,看明潛在地熱運償量,"},{"start":2947.739,"end":2959.142,"text":"供未來擴大開發地熱發電能源之廠址調查及收集高溫地下水之分布及水溫的範圍作為東部地熱發電廠之建構依據提升臺灣東部地區地熱資源產能及發電量並評估地熱能量潛力及擴大開發之可行性有助加速國內地熱開發進程提高我國再生能源佔比"},{"start":2971.105,"end":2983.58,"text":"並可鼓勵民間投入相關產業。以上各項計畫所編預算,均系配合國家重要政策之需,為利各項計畫及早完成,以發揮效益,懇請各位委員支持,並同意相關經費自動資。以上報告,謝謝。"},{"start":2999.015,"end":3016.062,"text":"主席、各位委員、女士先生現在交通部緊就中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期的特別預算還有中央政府疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算有關本部主管的解凍"},{"start":3016.642,"end":3021.706,"text":"前瞻特別預算的部分,總共有4案。觀光局在城鄉建設下凍結500萬元。本部觀光署為持續推動花東地區國際旅遊市場,已經嚴定推動花東永續旅遊境外包機計畫。"},{"start":3041.664,"end":3054.358,"text":"及修正境外包機來臺的補助要點,未來將持續結合各地方政府加強宣導包機的獎勵措施,來鼓勵積極送客到富花東去旅遊。"},{"start":3056.24,"end":3059.001,"text":"預言所綠能建設下凍結10%預算本部預言所在112至113年辦理電動車公共充電樁設施設置需求評估研究"},{"start":3072.928,"end":3091.664,"text":"本研究以於112年收集電動車使用者使用需求特性及國內外的相關文獻,112年將建立電動車公共充電樁的設施需求的評估模式,來探討不同情形下的電動公車公共充電樁需求變化的情形。"},{"start":3092.985,"end":3108.096,"text":"第3案是有關我們鐵道局在軌道建設下所凍結的一千萬元。這部分本部的鐵道局於112年到11月20日已經將花蓮縣政府提報的花蓮車站以南至木瓜西提防"},{"start":3109.418,"end":3114.243,"text":"2、鐵路立體化的可行性研究案。3、研議已經納入了花東地區鐵路雙軌電氣化計畫的修正計畫,而且已於113年3月29日提報行政院來審理中。4、鐵道局凍結預算。"},{"start":3130.8,"end":3151.68,"text":"大家所關切的高鐵延伸屏東規劃的一個作業的路線規劃以依環境影響評估公開說明會的意見檢討辦理也就是沿理高雄市的人武區的路段朝向與高雄到屏東間的所謂的東西向第二條快速公路計畫共用路廊的方向來規劃"},{"start":3153.524,"end":3156.765,"text":"一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。"},{"start":3174.653,"end":3175.714,"text":"2、有關公務局及所屬辦理的擴大公共運輸補貼凍結書面報告案。"},{"start":3194.406,"end":3210.356,"text":"公共預輸通勤預票從112年7月1日上路實施,迄今全國已有19個縣市推動實施,共有23個預票方案。澎湖縣的預票方案也預定在今年的上半年上路。"},{"start":3212.697,"end":3228.284,"text":"一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案5案。一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案6案。一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案7案。一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案8案。一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案9案。一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案10案。一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案11案。一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案12案。一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案13案。一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面"},{"start":3239.389,"end":3250.516,"text":"這個計畫裡的其中有關自由行的獎助方案,到今年3月為止共計有212萬名的國外旅客參加抽獎,總共有36萬人中獎。團課獎勵方面也有2萬團提出申請。"},{"start":3257.84,"end":3273.571,"text":"至於就穩定旅宿業服務量能的部分,我們也與勞動部跟教育部共同合作。到了113年的3月底,旅宿業者暨新聘防務清潔人員2,669人。本計畫在112年以成功帶動全年來台的旅客數,已經超過640萬人次。"},{"start":3285.459,"end":3295.309,"text":"以上是就這兩個特別預算的一個報告做簡要的一個說明那還是懇請各位委員的支持必利於本部的各項計畫能夠順利推動謝謝"},{"start":3297.881,"end":3317.443,"text":"好,謝謝我們交通部陳正智的報告。其他部會請參閱書面報告。現在開始詢答。先做以下宣告。每位出席委員發言時間為5分鐘。必要時得延長1分鐘。每位列席委員發言時間為4分鐘。今日上午10點截止發言登記。現在依照登記的順序請登記第一位林德福委員質詢。"},{"start":3333.386,"end":3334.046,"text":"陳副主席"},{"start":3351.989,"end":3368.185,"text":"委員好。你好,副主席長你好。因為再過幾天你們朱主席長就要卸任了。那在8年任內行政院所提出的一些特別預算那監察院曾經在109年提出調查報告"},{"start":3370.147,"end":3387.747,"text":"說我們的特別預算編列有常態化的這種現象那政府恐將有將部分支出隱藏於這些前瞻計畫的特別預算裡面造成109年度總預算財政收支平衡之假象"},{"start":3388.968,"end":3412.296,"text":"那中央政府在推動前瞻計畫因為未能充分考量地方的財政以至於地方政府有挪移預算產生排擠的一個效應那我請問副組長對於監察院針對政府特別預算常態化的這種看法那個副組長你認不認同"},{"start":3413.936,"end":3440.591,"text":"謝謝委員這個關心實際上我們所有編列特別預算一定要符合預算法第83條的條件然後也最近這幾年的特別預算一定是先有條例經過我們大院我知道啊那問題是監察院為什麼要調查呢如果你認同的話那你是不是應該要給下一任尤其你們應該給下一任的主計長有一些參考建議啊如果你要是"},{"start":3441.391,"end":3456.343,"text":"不認為說特別預算有常態化的現象,那是不是代表你認同行政機關對於預算法第83條的解釋,應該是要往擴大解釋的方向走,是不是?"},{"start":3456.903,"end":3457.504,"text":"主席主席總書"},{"start":3476.64,"end":3491.827,"text":"陳花新文稿表示,由於普通公務預算一年才編列一次,但如果有特殊大筆經費需求,需要到隔年的預算才能編列,移屬反不及急。"},{"start":3493.368,"end":3500.991,"text":"需依法編列特別預算並送立法院來審議。現在國民黨提出《0403 政災重建條例》草案,要求編列150億元特別預算來協助重建,請問你認為《0403 政災特別預算》經費是不是有必要?"},{"start":3518.646,"end":3545.786,"text":"有沒有必要?跟委員報告就是說當然我們預算法的規定就是重大災變可以提特別預算不過因為我們現在災害防救法已經在921之後已經賦予可以已緩計及所以目前各部會在還沒有特別預算之前其實已經都找到預算趕快去進行這個災險跟重建的工作所以目前盤點以後目前已經有"},{"start":3546.446,"end":3547.226,"text":"主席"},{"start":3568.015,"end":3588.946,"text":"快速的整合各部會資源權力來投入重建,不需要另立特別的條例,快又有效。那我請問副主席黨,到底特別預算的編列是要看經費需求的急迫性,還是要看哪個政黨執政才有特別預算編列與否的決定權呢?"},{"start":3593.469,"end":3613.449,"text":"其實這個要不要編特別預算有兩個角度一個就是說它的急迫性當然一個是它的規模那現在因為目前我們盤點的規模以我們現有的手上的這些災準金或者遺患基金等等還有政災基金會等財源是足夠支援的那哪時候可以確定呢"},{"start":3614.981,"end":3629.353,"text":"我們現在已經在進行了,已經都在執行了。在執行,因為行政院如果能夠快速整合各部會資源籌措250億,那不就是坐實了行政院年度預算是胡編嗎?"},{"start":3631.794,"end":3653.219,"text":"因為921的經驗所以各部會比如說交通部、農委會他們本來的預算就有編了一些跟災害有關的預算那我們也要求地方政府或者我們中央大家都有災害準備金的這樣的一個編列所以它的應付災害的能力已經提升了"},{"start":3653.559,"end":3663.997,"text":"我知道但是問題地方政府他沒有那麼多的預算啊因為本席對於吼拿救災預算的經費合理化來作為吼政治鬥爭籌碼的行為啊"},{"start":3666.704,"end":3691.314,"text":"本期是不以為然所以說我一直認為說這個一定要建立制度而且要怎麼快速因為畢竟像這樣的一個重大災害算是這個國家級的那你不是只有單一花蓮其他縣市有的也是蠻嚴重的那副組長我再請教這個"},{"start":3697.027,"end":3702.969,"text":"臺經院上禮拜公布今年最新的經濟成長率預測為3.29%比1月預測的0.14%上修0.14%。CPI年增率也上修到2.13%。而且因為受到"},{"start":3716.275,"end":3733.87,"text":"電價調漲、物價上漲的牽動以及中東地緣政治風險升溫的影響形成加劇整個通膨的一個壓力甚至於對國內輸入性通膨造成新一波的壓力那副主席長針對台積電對於經濟成長力CPI的預測請問你有什麼看法"},{"start":3739.018,"end":3767.299,"text":"因為第一季我們的實際的結果也的確比原來預測的還好所以我們原來預估的3.43也有可能會往上調升那至於CPI就是目前就是也考量了這個電價的調整我們預估也盡量希望就是大概控制在全年在2%左右因為那個國內輸入性通貨的壓力已經是蠢蠢欲動還是已經出現了?你的看法呢?"},{"start":3768.687,"end":3795.923,"text":"我想民眾主要感受是說他購買頻率很高的那他感受的確會比較深那這個部分我們也會針對購買頻率比較高的去做的一個CPI的這個比例但是就平均而言我們希望控制在2%左右好最後一個警器護書下的台青院是這樣預測結果那請問副主席長你認為今年第二季以後到底會更樂觀還是會悲觀"},{"start":3798.12,"end":3798.38,"text":"陳婷薇委員質詢"},{"start":3826.815,"end":3827.196,"text":"交通部次長"},{"start":3837.729,"end":3862.987,"text":"委員好市長好市長我們的單軌藍線一起有條件通過那總經費是324.37億這個部分讓大家都覺得我們台南要蓋捷運了是以單軌捷運的方式可是其實你細看裡面"},{"start":3864.195,"end":3889.606,"text":"他是有條件的通過有條件的通過而且他現在是高價他有條件的通過在這整個過程當中他是要從主要連接我們的高鐵到我們的所謂的轉運站東區的轉運站這樣的一個區塊所以呢大家都希望有這一條來做連結可是"},{"start":3892.967,"end":3911.854,"text":"有條件的通過,這裡面的條件,市長,裡面所寫的其實沒有那麼容易來做處理。第一個,他說,台南市政府需再加強說明採用該系統原因及後續營運維修成本。這很困難的。"},{"start":3916.567,"end":3921.009,"text":"2、總經費較可行性研究增加126.74億,它的責任歸屬。3、中央與地方經費分攤、經濟效益及運量估算合理性。這三個,你先讓它"},{"start":3943.696,"end":3962.45,"text":"過了一個頭,過去人們都說頭過心就過,但是這看了不是這樣,有條件的通過,原本大家都期待說藍線一起我們環評過了,結果是有條件通過,市長這到底是怎麼一回事?"},{"start":3964.162,"end":3987.388,"text":"我想我跟委員報告一下有關台南市的藍線本部是在3月21號召開相關的審查會當然審查會裡頭有相關的意見是希望台南市政府再去釐清說明說明完了以後其實我們就會幫整個計畫環保行政院來核定但是你釐清說明的這三點你這三點是可大可小"},{"start":3990.469,"end":4017.268,"text":"市長這三點是可大可小我跟委員報告其實這個整個採用什麼樣的系統採用什麼樣的營運的方式在可行性的階段其實市政府做了很詳盡的研究那提出來的之後至於它採行了這樣的一套的系統那在相關當時的審查委員認為是說可能要請市政府再說明把它說明清楚並不是說這樣意思就是說在質疑它採用這樣的一個系統"},{"start":4019.369,"end":4040.279,"text":"我就跟你講,你這三點是可大可小,對不對?如果只是認同它這個系統,然後呢,在未來它可行性評估的營運維修成本只是有一點點需要補強的,那沒有問題。如果像你講的,如果委員是認為這個系統是有問題的喔,"},{"start":4042.64,"end":4060.443,"text":"那是可大可小。再來,總經費,它比可行性研究當時候增加了126.74億,比較多的大概都是我們的所有土建相關我們的預算增加。"},{"start":4062.059,"end":4062.079,"text":"市長"},{"start":4083.407,"end":4110.078,"text":"可不可以簡單說明再說明清楚一點好不好就是有關這樣的一個計畫在我們這個部裡頭召開的審查委員審查完以後是有條件通過請他修正完了以後我們就會把這樣的一個計畫報院所以呢這個剛才委員講到說這個報院的期程應該在市政府報來了以後我們大概看了一下沒問題我們就會往行政院來審報市長你這句話很重要喔那至於可行性的研究因為我就跟你講說"},{"start":4111.158,"end":4139.946,"text":"你寫的這幾點是可大可小。如果說你今天像次長所說的,我們都審過了,只有一個小修正,OK?可是如果不是這個樣子,又是三邊推薦來推薦去,那基本上我們當時候在媒體看得大大的,也就是我們已經通過了所謂的一個初步審查,"},{"start":4140.626,"end":4165.392,"text":"那等於就沒有意義了。市長,你要記得你今天所說的喔。市長,我跟委員報告,有條件的通過其實是整體上委員對這整個計畫是可以通過的。當然啦,整體可以通過,但是只是稍微修正。這個原則請把它踩住。沒問題,我們會依照這樣的原則來做後續的一個處理。因為其實我們的捷運"},{"start":4167.412,"end":4193.617,"text":"單軌捷運基本上它是有藍線、綠線、紅線綠線、紅線都還在規劃都還沒有正式有這樣的一個雛形那今天藍線會跑得比較快是因為它確實它可以連接我們的高鐵到我們的東區的轉運站所以這個是有它基本上的需要甚至還可以連接到我們未來整個我們的火車站"},{"start":4195.05,"end":4216.555,"text":"這個都有它的一個脈絡性所以這一條會比較被重視而且認為因為它是高價高價其實未來還有一個所謂的落墩的問題落墩的問題這邊比較空曠比較沒有所謂跟我們住戶有所謂的一個比鄰的狀態所以我們都希望這一條要趕快走"},{"start":4217.415,"end":4241.127,"text":"要趕快走所以在整個藍線、綠線、紅線它在本來2.25億的一個先期的運輸系統規劃那現在藍線跑得比較快所以我們希望不要讓我們地方失望是這個部分好第二個問題就是我們現在所看到的新式鐵路高架化"},{"start":4242.578,"end":4265.14,"text":"新市鐵路高架化新市鐵路高架化我知道現在臺南市政府還在做新市及善化地區鐵路立體化可行性研究的期末相關作業對不對所有的資料都還在市政府是不是所以你們這邊沒有資料我要求交通部你現在"},{"start":4266.121,"end":4292.158,"text":"因為你要評估我們現在所有的地下、鐵路地下化的進度到未來走到我們新市高架大概要多久?因為你們預估出時間才能催促市政府要趕快把時間定出來啊否則他東西不送出來怎麼辦?來預計一下我們現在所有的地下化都在進行啊趕快回答吧"},{"start":4297.563,"end":4325.691,"text":"我跟委員報告一下有關那個鐵路地下化的部分我們會在115年會通車啊對啊115年對那這整個的話那後續的這個就要看市政府報來了以後從永康再到新市那這個部分呢這個部分你預計呢115年我們鐵路地下化通車那後面我銜接到我們永康新市新化這裡的還有這個上化我想委員這部分呢可能還是我先下這部分資料好不好"},{"start":4326.631,"end":4335.06,"text":"沒有,這一句話而已。對,對,對,我的意思是說還是希望這個台南市政府報來了以後,是,我們來協助啦,好不好,我們來接下,我們來協助他啦。如果他都不動的話,等到我們做完,後面計畫都還沒上來,怎麼會來得及呢?"},{"start":4342.247,"end":4342.407,"text":"請吳秉瑞委員質詢"},{"start":4379.4,"end":4382.881,"text":"主席,麻煩請內政部發次長。內政部的發次長,請。市長早。這個花蓮403地震,全國人民都很關心。除了中央這邊也有捐款,也有人直接捐到花蓮縣政府之外,"},{"start":4405.859,"end":4418.565,"text":"是對中央對花蓮縣的救災要求我們沒有承諾嗎?當然有承諾那有承諾他盤點清楚受損的部分沒有?"},{"start":4419.778,"end":4438.163,"text":"目前花蓮陸陸續續盤點出來現階段有十幾棟大概會有可能要拆除或者是整個建築物的部分那另外道路的還有其他的那這些工程的搶修不是已經在進行了嗎是"},{"start":4440.203,"end":4452.371,"text":"那現在中央政府也同意至少有匡列250億以上馬上要投入救災那為什麼還需要一個什麼特別條例啊而且特別條例大家覺得規模才150億耶"},{"start":4455.001,"end":4474.987,"text":"還遠遠不如中央政府的預算規模而且中央政府不用經過立法的程序馬上就要做然後現在你要弄一個特別條例要經過本院立法 立法程序走完之後再由行政院再來編列預算然後再來去進行 那目的是150億還比行政院現在已經願意馬上投入執行的250億還要少這是在幹嘛"},{"start":4478.626,"end":4484.661,"text":"確實啦,但我想以現在行政院用方案的方式來執行,其實效率跟規模都會符合災民的需求。"},{"start":4485.472,"end":4514.965,"text":"那是不是我現在意思是說所以我懷疑是不是花蓮縣政府跟中央之間的溝通有問題啊會不會花蓮縣政府要報什麼救災的這個計畫來啊結果中央政府不接受還是中央政府跟他邀說你要盤點清楚你哪一些東西要救災要趕快來進行然後他不給你到底是哪一種狀況啊應該沒有他花蓮需要中央協助中央不處理的這個基本上是沒有啦"},{"start":4515.165,"end":4522.135,"text":"那有沒有花蓮?中央要花蓮盤點受災的狀況,花蓮不報的?我想各部會可能都有不同的狀況,那當然有些資訊確實慢了一些。"},{"start":4526.226,"end":4548.6,"text":"好那如果是這樣的話就回到我剛剛講的中央政府尤其行政機關沒有這些特別條例的狀況下已經匡列250億馬上要投入救災嘛只要你計畫報來確實就要進行嘛對不對甚至我們也會主動下去就執行執了解所以我現在意思說內政部要主動要了解有有有好那如果是這樣的話這樣子的速度"},{"start":4549.659,"end":4570.938,"text":"今天報來確定明天就可以做甚至今天就可以做那有需要來提一個這個政災的特別條例特別條例是一個法律案法律案要到本院來審查法院法律案的審查在立法院再快直接抽出進付二讀也要好幾個禮拜啊那然後之後再來根據這個"},{"start":4572.559,"end":4598.647,"text":"這個特別條例再來由行政院編列預算那再經過本院審查這個預算的審查再快也要兩三個禮拜馬上就可以做的事情有需要經過這樣兩三個月的程序然後來去立一個特別條例然後來編列預算來做嗎這個是第一個我不懂的地方這是在幹嘛我不瞭解所以我想請教你你的看法是這是在幹嘛"},{"start":4599.875,"end":4600.455,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":4622.512,"end":4649.92,"text":"慈善機構也是我們的宗教團體叫做慈濟他的大本營就是在花蓮對不對是慈濟在全世界救災喔全世界有到處去喔連非洲連中南美洲各地土耳其只要有正在的地方他都派人去支援也弄了非常多的組合屋你知道嗎是包括20多年前的九合一地震九合一大地震他也弄了非常多的組合屋啊台灣組合屋不夠嗎"},{"start":4652.096,"end":4679.081,"text":"以目前花蓮的狀況甚至有沒有需要組合屋都還要再詳細的評估一下有沒有需要組合屋需要詳細的Promote那就算有需要組合屋台灣組合屋不夠嗎還是政府不願意提供然後還是慈善團體不願意提供100間組合屋需要從中國特別運過來要從中國特別來救濟有這樣的需求嗎應該是沒有"},{"start":4680.353,"end":4704.862,"text":"那一間組合屋的估價,你估價是多少?其實有不同的推估啦,我們前陣子有請工會幫忙評估,大概算一坪啦,我們大概還是用坪的角度來看,一坪大概在七八萬塊。一坪七八萬塊,那組合屋一般是多少坪?二十坪、三十坪,二十坪的左右比較多啦,十幾坪到二十坪。一百多萬嗎?是。"},{"start":4706.294,"end":4721.891,"text":"那你講的這個是在當地施工的喔?是那如果是從中國那邊一百千運過來海運、空運運過來來這邊組裝那要花多少錢?這個我就不是很清楚運費應該不便宜"},{"start":4723.629,"end":4748.008,"text":"那就很奇怪啊沒有需要那遠巴巴的那麼多人去中國去乞討一個100間的組合屋我們不見得需要就算有需要台灣也絕對供應得起這是在幹什麼我在搞不懂這是在幹嘛所以最近我跟社會覺得越來越脫節了做了很多事情我越來越搞不懂邏輯上不清楚啊為什麼這樣"},{"start":4749.676,"end":4766.311,"text":"今天如果說中央政府不願意給你補助經費,像當年高雄氣爆,那時候中央政府不願意給高雄補助。這次地震,全國人民都在關心,中央政府馬上第一時間也說要,立刻就給。然後也已經匡列250億在那邊等他。"},{"start":4769.132,"end":4791.422,"text":"這樣子還要弄一個特別條例再來台灣又不缺組合屋台灣隨時也有人願意提供組合屋台灣的善心人士很多啦真的有實際需要這個哪裡是問題一百間組合屋是什麼問題一定有社會上這麼多人的愛心可以提供嘛我也願意如果有這樣的機會我也願意笑眠婆之力啊"},{"start":4792.486,"end":4813.875,"text":"那在這樣的狀況之下到底在幹嘛我算是看不懂內政部我覺得你要加油跟地方政府多溝通地方政府有什麼需要是不是我們不夠了解我們的關懷度不夠讓地方政府覺得說我們都沒有在關心他嗎我們都會持續盤點我們的住興補貼跟現在交通部提供的旅館的這個部分合起來其實有超過3000戶的協助"},{"start":4816.096,"end":4831.047,"text":"因為民政系統是在你們的手裡,所以我是說對地方政府要多關懷,不要讓地方政府覺得說他們跟我們之間有很大的隔閡。我們是我本江西向明月,不要明月照溝渠。"},{"start":4846.618,"end":4846.798,"text":"G7工業國"},{"start":4866.502,"end":4889.845,"text":"公開所不再發表反核的言論承認核能環保地位那個環境部的也可以來環境部長官可以來他特別提到了他特別提到了我們認識到核能作為清潔clean零排放人員的潛力"},{"start":4892.421,"end":4920.331,"text":"我就請教經濟部,你們還要反核嗎?還要廢核嗎?世界趨勢已經這個樣子,而且新北市的合一的甘土廠、核市場也幫你解套了。這個時間,你要不要順水推舟,接這個球,就開始回應社會的希望用核能當作你的穩定的基站。回應一下。"},{"start":4921.81,"end":4937.111,"text":"謝謝委員這邊的提問。我想各式能源都有它的優缺點,我們都會特別去關注。你知道昨天桃園又停電嗎?你知道桃園昨天又停電嗎?我想我有看到那個媒體報導。奇怪,他為什麼停電就停桃園?"},{"start":4938.308,"end":4958.284,"text":"你看我們外媒你委員也不順眼是不是?還怎麼樣?老是停桃園啊!還是因為說桃園6個立委從事國民黨的所以停就停他們?我想不是這樣的,台電已經很清楚對外說明那是配電系統的一個問題。配電系統?你們台電的總經理還是配電系統專家咧?"},{"start":4959.865,"end":4971.733,"text":"一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。"},{"start":4984.724,"end":5011.562,"text":"一天秀一支不是,我想那個臺電原本都在網站裡面有提供他們的備轉容量的狀況對啦,但是它不是像現在瞬間嗎?這個某種程度你們就是想卸責說我給你看喔隨時的你的備轉容量你萬一第3的話第1期你自己要小心停電你自己負責這個樣子的卸責所以臺電沒有回答問題你們現在難道不需要監討你的人員政策嗎?"},{"start":5013.074,"end":5027.626,"text":"對河南的態度!對河南的態度!我想委員所提到的部分我們實時在檢視我們對供電穩定的相關的措施這個是本來就經濟部的職責一定要去實時的檢視我在問你河山經營的企業是不是確定就停了?"},{"start":5029.988,"end":5046.723,"text":"呃,相關的這個規定齁,核能的廚藝,核能的這個相關的廚藝有它的規定,那我們必須按照法律規定的這個規範來進行。你說我聽不懂啦,你是確定停啦,不再運轉了是不是啊?當然,因為它的運轉直到...它的發電量從什麼地方來呢?它的發電量從什麼地方...事實上我們有新的電廠會來這個運轉這樣子。新的電廠在哪裡呢?"},{"start":5054.836,"end":5083.515,"text":"事實上我們對於這個河嶺河山廠的內部有98萬千瓦那沒錯嘛對那會從這個森巴二期還有張安靜100萬千瓦會上來我們會去支應還有大潭電廠的那個電廠你們這個要跟社會講清楚啊到現在為止討厭老是停電可見的電的不夠啊啊人家一定是這樣講全世界這樣子然後呢這個侯友宜的作秀給你們呢就不接我知道我知道對不對我知道你為了保公會老是要在這裡"},{"start":5085.056,"end":5094.403,"text":"對不對?你不敢講真話?沒有沒有。現在需要核電啦。好不好請問請問。我們請一下內政部這個處長跟……內政部的處長跟國土…國土書信。兩位長官啊。各位好。"},{"start":5109.312,"end":5126.095,"text":"你們要幫賴皮了解到,要拍賴清德的馬屁,要拍得好啊。你用原住民去計畫,賴清德跟原住民沒有任何的關係,他也不是原住民的後代。"},{"start":5126.776,"end":5126.856,"text":"區域計畫法"},{"start":5146.021,"end":5147.042,"text":"第1期財政、內政、經濟及文化、交通、社會福利及全民共享經濟成果特別預算"},{"start":5161.058,"end":5188.072,"text":"第一期只針對賴皮老合法第二期才有金瓜石缺糞分兩階段不是因為金瓜石糾糞的土地使用內容太複雜了它有民宿還有旅館但是賴皮老就沒有理由啊不是它是純住宅啊現在這些礦區的這部分我們當然針對是純住宅的部分先來處理因為金瓜石糾糞還有旅館它背後就涉及建館消防等等的問題"},{"start":5190.393,"end":5191.757,"text":"這個可能要最後再疊圖才能做最後的確認。"},{"start":5199.056,"end":5220.647,"text":"我們都很清楚啊,你分兩階段,第一階段解套這個賴皮鳥的,第二個階段才解套這個,我覺得用的計畫又是原本想的很不好啦。我想跟我們報告,其實用這樣子的說法其實是很不公平啦。那也是民國77年礦泉廢了之後,地方政府跟主管機關沒有妥適處理該有的行政審判。那你那個部長當幾年了?市長當幾年了?快8年了。"},{"start":5224.758,"end":5224.778,"text":"委員長"},{"start":5247.273,"end":5258.394,"text":"東華大學這次受傷非常嚴重,零四零三,受損二十多億喔!結果學校還要它募款,只募到一億,到列比前都視訊上課,"},{"start":5261.114,"end":5281.209,"text":"請問你啊對東華大學這裡面還有更那個的是到六月底之前的視訊上課而且考試還叫他們回來考試外籍學生從國外買機票回來然後實體考試住宿有問題學校校舍有問題結果叫考試實體考試市長你知道這台機嗎"},{"start":5284.079,"end":5311.226,"text":"跟委員報告齁,那個東華大學目前已經匡列17.6億,會分3年來協助...你為什麼分3年呢?剛才主計...副主計長就說按照他的講法就可以一次給了他錢,20億你給他分3年,要叫他自己募款,然後再分3年給他,給他先出錢喔?你叫東華大學先出錢喔?他怎麼沒有辦法出錢呢?跟委員報告是依照那個學校的工程規劃,那今年的第1期就會先下去。"},{"start":5311.923,"end":5325.248,"text":"不是,你們應該給他錢,不是他叫他先,以後再給他。跟委員報告,我們沒有說東華大學先然後再給他,我們本來就是...你們第一筆的錢什麼時候可以到?"},{"start":5327.852,"end":5356.643,"text":"4億,我們第1期會有4億,然後今年就會下去。什麼時候?今年大概什麼時候?我們希望下個月移緩季節,我們就移下去。要趕快齁!還有,最後一個問題就是,全國中小學的校舍,因為這個零四零三啊,很多軍力,這個你們什麼時候開始做?有48校。目前48校大概3.1而已,那我們也是用3年還是?對,也是移緩季節。"},{"start":5357.043,"end":5380.172,"text":"是預算基礎有沒有今年?什麼時候開始做了?國中小的校舍啊?教室啊?宿舍等等啊?目前我們先移除五千多萬就先處理初步災損什麼時候開始了?什麼時候開始?已經下去了五千多萬幹嘛搞?整體會有3.1而已但五千多萬我們現在第一階段就先下去因為他們要先處理初步災損好 謝謝"},{"start":5383.209,"end":5383.389,"text":"陳彥博次長"},{"start":5411.493,"end":5420.118,"text":"市長早。市長,我們前瞻特別預算有一個改善停車問題的計畫,從106年提出以後原本是200億,後來109跟111年各修正了一次,這兩次修正經費從200億增加到260億,整個計畫準備要延長到114年,這是正確的嗎?是。"},{"start":5435.027,"end":5450.395,"text":"可見,我想我們全國各地停車的問題是很嚴重的,急需要我們大家來想辦法改善。次長請教您一下,您知不知道我們現在台灣的人口年增率第一名的是哪一個縣市?我想委員會這樣問我的話應該是桃園市。"},{"start":5452.216,"end":5474.955,"text":"你的猜測其實蠻正確的就是桃園市那其實因為我們從內政部的人口統計顯示我們的總人口數已經正式通過230萬這個大關了那同時到今年3月我們的人口數來到232萬也就是說你看一年之內我們就增加了3萬多人我也最近期的來看年增率全台第一"},{"start":5475.615,"end":5495.608,"text":"尤其我們從升格之後,同時有很多的重大建設在進行,所以吸引了很多的外來人口。包括我們不管機場捷運、鐵路地下化、綠線捷運等等,交通建設越來越好以後,勢必人口的入住率會越來越高。所以我們的停車改善的問題,就急需中央趕緊來協助我們。目前我們看到,"},{"start":5499.491,"end":5509.196,"text":"我們所有的重大建設跟這個停車的問題息息相關特別今天本席在這裡要跟您討論的就是我們在桃園後站的廣伊停車場我想次長不會不知道這個計畫對不對因為這個計畫兩年前王國才部長跟本席我們在這個桃園做考察的時候就特別針對鐵路地下化我們桃園火車站的站體跟這廣伊地下停車場的這個設置我們來做了一個考察"},{"start":5528.965,"end":5555.93,"text":"這個廣義停車場現在有相當的急迫性我想必須跟次長來做說明因為呢這個停車場現在在捷運綠線的正軌道旁邊而已就在旁邊那配合我們河西市政府在116年我們整個這個綠線捷運的綠線的鐵路地下化那淺頓要開始開挖了那因為兩個相距相距的非常近如果我們軌道工程挖好之後我們才要再來做這個地下的這個停車場的地下室的工程"},{"start":5557.291,"end":5574.209,"text":"這個軌道它就會因為土壤密實跟這個壓力上浮對於我們綠線捷運的進度、品質、安全都會有很大很大的影響所以我們現在廣義停車場的設置有它的必要性同時我們的進程有它的急迫性那這個計畫我講到這裡次長您理解嗎"},{"start":5580.935,"end":5602.74,"text":"兩年前部長跟本席在討論做考察的時候部長親口承諾他既然有必要性也需要中央來協助所以在當時我們總預算7億那他當天承諾要來補助3.5億兩年後過去了完全沒有看到任何的補助下來這第一件事第二"},{"start":5603.18,"end":5621.517,"text":"大約在一個月前交通委員會我們辦考察再一次來到我們廣義這個停車場結果呢部長說沒有錢沒有預算沒有經費這到底是怎麼回答啊這樣我們桃園市政府以及我們桃園市的市民都非常的錯愕啊那當天呢他是說"},{"start":5623.579,"end":5634.752,"text":"有必要,這個庭場非常有必要,但現在沒有經費,4月底的時候再來做一次滾動式檢討喔。那不曉得市長,既然您剛剛一路都表達這個計畫你是知道,現在檢討到哪裡了?"},{"start":5637.871,"end":5656.111,"text":"我跟委員報告一下,有關剛才委員提到的前瞻的停車場的預算從200億增加到…你只要回答我,現在我廣義這個停車場3.5億的預算現在是怎麼樣?有關這個停車場剛才特別提到說在交通委員考察的時候王部長所提到會滾動式的檢討"},{"start":5657.432,"end":5687.206,"text":"市長你不要浪費我時間一直重複我的問題當答案好不好我們現在到底我們的經費有沒有下來有沒有核定啊我們現在的正在做滾動的檢討檢討到哪裡了嗎其實現在是在公路局他們已經檢討的我的了解他們已經檢討盤點的差不多了近期差不多了什麼時候核定這個3.51的預算下來我想我們會相關的程序盡快讓它完備然後就盡快來做相關的核定"},{"start":5687.366,"end":5711.595,"text":"一個禮拜之內把這個計畫完備,然後把這3.5億的預算兩年前的承諾來兌現可以嗎?我想我們盡量朝這個方向,請公路局朝這個方向來做出來。好,謝謝市長,但是這件事情務必跟部長來做這個報告。那按照兩年前他的承諾跟今天您的答覆,我們希望一周內我們要看到廣義地下停車場3.5億中央的補助款到位。"},{"start":5712.535,"end":5730.249,"text":"接下來,我們要鐵路地下化,我想再花一點點時間。我們看到我們桃園的鐵路地下化,不管是土建標、基建標,都是嚴重的嚴大,還有很多的標都沒有出去。那我們看到,根據鐵道局最新的進度,我們預定的進度本來到現在應該要完成34.5%,但實際的進度只有30.8%日後。"},{"start":5734.292,"end":5746.519,"text":"但你不要以為只有落後這4%不算什麼桃園市現在正在重大建設非常多是交通黑暗期你每一個工程的落後都會嚴重影響一個城市的發展所以根據審計部112年我們看到我們的潛在預算的一個審查報告在我們鐵路地下化交通部鐵道局"},{"start":5754.983,"end":5757.706,"text":"中央政府疫後強化經濟及全民共享經濟成果特別預算"},{"start":5775.563,"end":5784.466,"text":"我們現在用錢的速度遠比工程的進度來得要快很多那現在又因為通貨膨脹我們供應經費上漲在25%現在我們鐵路地下化目前招標的情況平均溢價在122%這些狀況次長都知道對嗎?"},{"start":5795.08,"end":5807.186,"text":"我們有掌握有掌握很好那更可怕的事情是我們整個鐵路地下化的總預算1048億竟然現在我們的進度只有30%結果花完了用慶了這是事實嗎"},{"start":5810.228,"end":5810.368,"text":"現在進度嚴重落後"},{"start":5828.909,"end":5851.141,"text":"完成率這麼低,然後我們的總預算花完了,所以上一次部長有承諾說,現在我們要重新來檢討這個計畫,那部長這個計畫什麼時候可以修正完畢,送到本席辦公室來?我想我們鐵道局大概會在6月多會把相關的計畫送到交通部來。6月中、6月15以前可以嗎?"},{"start":5852.603,"end":5879.002,"text":"最後一點我們因為當初我們的總經費1048億桃園市政府在我們大家的努力以及當時的鄭文燦市長我們爭取到桃園市政府負擔25%現在延宕了而且大概還在追加800億左右我們要求我們還是付原來的25%不能夠把增加的預算增加我們桃園市政府跟桃園市民的負擔希望市長把本席的意見帶回去好嗎"},{"start":5880.342,"end":5880.943,"text":"交通部、內政部、農業部"},{"start":5911.383,"end":5935.974,"text":"內政部我先就叫交通部陳次是,我也好是這樣子我想剛剛要提到前瞻計畫裡頭的停車場的這個相關的預算當中會考慮到不同地區的人口數但是本席要適當的提醒您應該要就不同地區的這個交通載具的依賴的不同而有所不同的變化為什麼因為有些地方就是軌道運輸很興旺相對而言公路運輸比較"},{"start":5936.994,"end":5937.274,"text":"市長,對不對?"},{"start":5963.067,"end":5963.668,"text":"市長會不會做調整?"},{"start":5983.063,"end":5983.323,"text":"市長請花次"},{"start":6005.326,"end":6032.904,"text":"華智,你之前預言說房價會下跌可是最近又漲了耶2022年第4季到2023年的第4季漲幅增幅不到10%那最近今年第1季又破了10%我看你好像破功了應該是應該是嘛,你有承認嘛那你有沒有挫折感我們花了這麼多時間做5次的信用管制我們花了這麼多時間做修法的工作修了這麼多法結果還漲,你的看法是怎麼樣"},{"start":6034.548,"end":6060.787,"text":"確實啦當然這也涉及到因為這幾年國內的經濟狀況確實非常好資金的量能也夠那所以說當然站在內政部的立場我們其實管制面的部分我們能做的大概都盡量在做那目前看到的是資金面跟租稅面可能因為沒有太多的相對應的資質我跟你講資金面我再給你一個數字過去3年來我們的儲區每年增加3兆"},{"start":6062.549,"end":6075.789,"text":"往年一年挺多1.5兆,現在每年平均大概3.5兆,我跟您說明今年的第1季你知道增加多少嗎?增加1.5兆,一季等於過去的一年,看你會不會出事?"},{"start":6076.843,"end":6093.442,"text":"所以說是不是相關的政策工具速度要稍微快一點之前規劃不足的地方我意思是說有幾個狀況第一個現在會帶動房價的科學園區的效應蠻大的這是第一個因為相對所得比較高第二個科學園區周遭的整個開發區不夠"},{"start":6095.504,"end":6112.303,"text":"第三個呢,過往我們提出的政策工具稍微偏晚了,就是公共設施、底廢地的部分、5%的部分。這5%的部分本席強烈建議你啊,不要等到蓋的時候再來找這5%啦,應該把它視為公共設施同步進行啦,先蓋,先蓋先贏啦。"},{"start":6114.727,"end":6129.563,"text":"沒有錯,現在其實所有的案子我們都已經先要求了,那也會先框...先框列,而且把它當公共設施,同步進行,先去,等到你後面的民間的這個開發商興建的時候,你要再去開社會住宅,有可能嗎?"},{"start":6130.657,"end":6130.677,"text":"農業部長"},{"start":6157.253,"end":6183.885,"text":"市長,你文官歷練非常的久啦,我想就這個部分啦,那個之前那個中國說宣布文旦要進口,你有聽到那個中國那邊有任何的一個訊息來跟我們接觸嗎?沒有透過平台正式通知。都還沒有?目前沒收到。目前都還沒有?那如果是這樣的話,類似的這種水果養套殺的這種狀況,通常是依賴度越高的一個水果的話,那會視為標的可能性會比較大對不對?"},{"start":6186.298,"end":6205.499,"text":"是這樣子,但是我講我們必須就臺灣的農產品盡量找其他的穩定的國際市場。對,幾年來農業部的努力已經從過去的依賴度的20幾%當中已經降到約莫10%啦,我大概有知道那個數據啦。但是我要請教你呢,你有沒有預測過接下來它會用哪一個水果來做操作的工具,有沒有?"},{"start":6206.209,"end":6221.935,"text":"我想我們不做任何預測。不做任何預測?我們要幫我們的農產品。你要做預防啊!防範預染啊!要預防的方式就是我們不斷的替我們的農產品做…你現在就要想一想哪些水果物品依賴度比較高或農漁產品依賴度比較高了,你現在手頭有沒有想到哪一個?"},{"start":6223.188,"end":6233.014,"text":"我覺得所有的都有可能,沒有啦,他要跟你談啊,不然在管你哪一行啊。所以我們其實不做這樣,但是替每一項產品都做最好的準備。因為不同世紀都有產品啊,沒有錯啊。那鳳梨有沒有舊啊?你覺得鳳梨有沒有鳳梨舊的回答?"},{"start":6243.761,"end":6262.569,"text":"當然不依靠他說我們為什麼日本及其他市場都有鳳梨在出去,當然有做多元化的,不是只有鮮果。我心裡還是要跟你講,他每一項都有可能,你每一個Priority你還是要準備一下啦,哪一個可能性比較大,我們準備開來可嗎?不要每次的時候我們要賣這些水果,賣到來不及,吃太慢了。"},{"start":6263.729,"end":6265.531,"text":"多元方案,不一定是新的。"},{"start":6279.326,"end":6299.701,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":6300.67,"end":6318.602,"text":"其實在台南的整個住宿型的資源部件也都持續在進行中,那社區式的資源部件其實應該是也達到快百分之百了。快百分之百了嗎?我們再思考一下好不好,因為台南的地蠻多的,台唐的地也蠻多的。"},{"start":6320.282,"end":6322.683,"text":"接著我們請侯孟凱委員質詢。"},{"start":6353.804,"end":6356.828,"text":"主席,麻煩請交通部次長及內政部次長。"},{"start":6368.035,"end":6384.958,"text":"我想今天各委員為地方發聲天經地義,但我們把錢花在刀口上。那我先請教一下在今天特別有講到就是疫後的觀光的部分。疫後觀光我覺得交通部這也是重中之重,這也是我們編列預算很希望能夠達到的。"},{"start":6386.812,"end":6413.497,"text":"去年我們達成600萬的觀光客但全世界其實已經高達87%是恢復到以前的一個情況那本席特別有關注到在這一次來講疫後有兩個國家的觀光客其實消退的非常大市長知道哪兩個國家嗎?亞洲啦日本跟韓國日本的觀光客消減了6成韓國的觀光客消減了4成"},{"start":6416.571,"end":6434.349,"text":"當然中國大陸那是因為這個政策因素我想我們先今天就就教國際觀光客的部分我覺得日本跟韓國觀光客過去我們來往的這個頻率其實也互動也蠻頻繁的但是日本削減了6成韓國削減了4成我覺得這是一個很大的一個警訊"},{"start":6435.45,"end":6464.236,"text":"有沒有掌握說那到底現在我們這些預算我們要持續的投入甚至今天要解凍的一個預算我們要再怎麼樣投入能夠針對韓國日本能夠把吸引這些優質的觀光客能夠回來本席的新北市不管是我們淡水不管是我們相關的地方好多韓國日本的觀光客都很喜歡啊但現在大家商圈都講是說就是還沒有回復到以前疫情前的榮景的一半來簡單說明一下我想跟委員報告一下"},{"start":6464.656,"end":6467.897,"text":"市長你講的這都是例行,我現在問你比較具體的做法,我們疫後的預算"},{"start":6483.303,"end":6511.117,"text":"今天要解凍,今天要討論,那預算花了,那我們到底要怎麼樣能夠具體針對這部分然後來吸引這些觀光客過來呢?其實在這一個預算裡頭其實有一個很重要的是自由行的部分來加碼五千元的這一部分那這一部分從去年的這個實施的經驗我們看來對於日本跟韓國的觀光客很具吸引力所以我們會持續在這邊來繼續至少我覺得這樣子真的講蠻籠統的啦"},{"start":6512.958,"end":6525.973,"text":"會後你再讓本席知道一下說你們比較具體的做法而且真的是希望是能夠增加這一些自由型然後優質的遊客能夠來到我們台灣這是為我們台灣的整個觀光市場那另外一部分會請教一下交通的輕軌道建設"},{"start":6527.875,"end":6544.66,"text":"本期的選舉裡面現在有幾條輕軌都是已經送了可行性評估包括說巴黎輕軌因為本來希望是淡江大橋2025年能夠完工的時候巴黎輕軌一定的實施但目前沒有辦法可是可行性評估也已經送到了交通部太阪輕軌"},{"start":6546.519,"end":6567.355,"text":"行政院陳建源院長已經核定了第一期叫做五泰輕軌,但是那是可行性評估,可是我們更希望是能夠後發先至,泰山到板橋的泰板輕軌能夠連接萬大線,能夠連接板南線,能夠連接台鐵、高鐵,其實對於整個地方的民眾更加的需要。請教這兩個現在進度勒,因為據我所知都已經送進去應該快要半年囉。"},{"start":6568.355,"end":6586.683,"text":"對,我跟委員報告一下,先講巴黎輕軌好了。巴黎輕軌的部分,當然新北市有做一些相關的研究,我們也把相關的計畫報到行政院去了。那行政院大概有合乎,就是請新北市政府再做一些檢討以後再報。"},{"start":6588.224,"end":6613.785,"text":"已經報一報再報?不能每一次報都是你要報一次問題講清楚有那麼難嗎?這個巴黎輕軌也已經是可行性評估就我了解送到我們鐵道局鐵道局也已經通過之後才從交通部送往行政院所以照理講專業的部分可行性載運量以及後續的工程難度交通部已經都做專業的審查了"},{"start":6615.186,"end":6643.202,"text":"我跟委員報告其實這個巴黎輕軌其實他還要更重要是到了淡水的這一部分所以有一個淡海輕軌的這個串聯的營運的方式路線這一部分我們希望請新北市政府再去釐清一下所以這一部分也就是為什麼行政院在核複的公文裡頭特別提到這一段然後因為有這樣的一個因素所以相關的運量的預測也希望他再做精準的一個分析所以相關運量跟串聯"},{"start":6644.602,"end":6661.072,"text":"請榮許,因為這兩個不是我們在地人,不過請榮許本席糾正一下,是淡海輕軌二期要連接到巴黎過來,是延伸到巴黎,並不是巴黎這邊做過來,這是不一樣的概念,不過不管怎麼樣都是連接兩岸。"},{"start":6662.173,"end":6689.852,"text":"本席是不是能夠再請因為次長這個部分特別強調是新北市政府其實這兩個計畫都已經送入交通部並且本席了解是往行政院送是行政院現在在打回票那中間到底是什麼問題其實也應該要一次釐清讓新北市當然應該要回應要回應但是一次釐清不要來來回回兩三次今天講ABC下一次再講DCE那永遠沒有辦法聚焦想做就我們就應該共同推動"},{"start":6690.452,"end":6690.572,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":6705.677,"end":6726.136,"text":"白市長,04、03地震,那我們看到當然是花蓮,鎮央在花蓮,但實際上新北、台北等幾個都會區也都有受損。而且有些人,我這個不是說發生在哪裡都不好,但有些人真的講是說還好這一次不是發生在人口比較密集的地方,鎮央啦,不然可能那個後果更嚴重。"},{"start":6727.117,"end":6739.467,"text":"我們現在要做的就是防範未來,本席到目前做了解是說新北市在這次04、03完之後才增加了12處的建物是紅單跟黃單,分別是5個紅單跟7個黃單,才那麼少嗎?"},{"start":6744.891,"end":6769.472,"text":"他們會陸續報,其實像新竹縣也是希望說我們給他到5月中陸陸續去報進來,我們都接受。對,那但是現在本席更要問的問題啊,就是有很多人他的一些建築可能第一相對老舊,其實已經三四十年四五十年的房子,第二他也沒有管委會,就是以前的老公寓,那你如果說要做建物的檢定或說這個建物到底是安不安全,有規列,但他可能他也不一定,"},{"start":6770.333,"end":6770.794,"text":"我們都會補助啊,我們都會補助。"},{"start":6787.25,"end":6815.256,"text":"但現在補助的比例呢?其實我們是初評是幾乎百分百補助你現在匡列了多少預算來做這個補助?那個好幾年了好幾年了,不是只有現在好幾年,但現在重點在於是這次04、03之後我相信一定有這個需求我們鼓勵大家趕快來如果說你告訴大家的話,說不定大家全都來那那個時候你的預算原額夠不夠?其實因為是基金預算,所以說不夠我們大概就是抄併決來處理就可以你匡列多少預算?"},{"start":6819.659,"end":6834.492,"text":"這個其實就是重點啦本席想強調的是說為什麼很多外界在質疑講是說哇這個有什麼04、03地震的這個特別條例本席有提到一個觀念啦這一次真的是天佑台灣天佑中華民國一直都是天佑台灣"},{"start":6835.373,"end":6853.853,"text":"所以說在這個鎮央如果沒有發生那個人口密集的地方可是我們真的要防範未來那新北市已經我相信台南我相信高雄好多地方的縣市也都有超過40年50年以上的房子之前也有一個數據全台灣超過30年以上的房子佔一半"},{"start":6854.83,"end":6880.725,"text":"所以如果說我們能夠趁現在這個時候還沒有在下一次天災我們不知道什麼時候下一次天災再來但是我們應該要去做這樣的一個建物總體檢那建物總體檢的費用到底夠不夠以及我們能不能大規模做做完之後後續能夠怎麼樣來重建跟補助我覺得這才是關鍵所以我們一起努力我們鼓勵全國有需要的民眾都趕快來申請謝謝好 謝謝侯孟楷委員的質詢接下來我們請吳佩儀委員質詢"},{"start":6894.121,"end":6894.281,"text":"內政部次長"},{"start":6909.381,"end":6927.351,"text":"市長,剛前面我也有提到說臺灣處地震帶全國性的建築總體檢重要。但我要說啊,地震已經發生之後,但是呢,地方政府對於有破損防護的檢測也很重要。為什麼呢?因為我們中央剛推出了我們地震後的震災專案。那我現在遇到個案的問題是這次臺北市也有災情,就在我們南機場的公路。"},{"start":6931.613,"end":6934.494,"text":"我們現在看到中央訂定辦法裡面針對紅黃單的受災戶我們有生活補助那另外對於房屋破損的受災戶我們也有租金補貼因為我們讓他安置有一個期間有地方可以住但是我們這個社區裡面當時市政府他來這個計事公會來檢測只檢測了幾條巷子"},{"start":6954.301,"end":6982.917,"text":"現在後面有幾條巷子還沒有檢測所以呢這個專案上路在申請方面可能會有一些爭議現在好多民眾已經在問了說我家的房子也破損很嚴重那市政府沒有來檢測我現在要怎麼來申請這個受地震所影響的這個受災補助我希望我們內政部可以去了解一下這個全國在有發生災情的地方縣市目前這個相關的情況其實還是可以請他們先直接找其實祭司去檢去看那如果說貸政出評的話"},{"start":6983.897,"end":7003.203,"text":"每戶有15000塊,我們基本上是內政部會補助的。是,這個地方政府要主動來協助民眾檢測,尤其是外顯有明顯的破損,那不然說民眾自己還要來想辦法求助,所以我希望我們內政部去瞭解一下這個地方的狀況。好,我們跟台北市政府也瞭解一下,我們跟市府瞭解一下。好,那接下來我要很關心的是我們"},{"start":7004.284,"end":7016.838,"text":"對,我們內政部在林口市大運有一座第一個是中央到地方參與的社宅。那前陣子在我們空總有一個公共藝術成果的展出,我不知道次長你有沒有去看?有。那我是去看了,看了我覺得非常的感動。確實。"},{"start":7018.88,"end":7046.38,"text":"我自己是在台北市的中正萬華區尤其是在萬華我發現社區的共融社區的互動是非常重要的那林口社宅的公共藝術我們看到其實就打破了過去監察院有對我們的公共藝術有一個糾正的報告說很多公共藝術都是未辦而辦甚至都大量的直接找廠商代辦去了看不到這個公共藝術的社會成果但是在我們林口社宅裡面的公共藝術它很多是社區型的行動計畫"},{"start":7047.801,"end":7067.595,"text":"甚至我們看到弱勢戶的孩子跟長者他們自主來組成社團自己去舉辦了更多延續性的活動我覺得這是非常好的社區成果生活美學才是核心沒有錯甚至還有以適應內容的產出少了郭子乾、郭歌來演出真正把我家富貴發號電視劇這也是我們社宅的公共藝術成果"},{"start":7071.337,"end":7093.266,"text":"我覺得只辦一個展覽其實不太夠要大肆的去宣傳最重要的是我希望它不是昙花一現因為我的選區接下來馬上就有這個萬華安居也是我們住宿中心的社宅即將要啟用了接下來有林鄉好市那在我們南機場的對面國防部9號基地我們也感謝內政部合併了即將來規劃社宅也謝謝委員支持"},{"start":7095.367,"end":7110.224,"text":"主席,我希望我們的公共藝術的計畫能夠有一個參考,然後持續性的來延續。我們現在已經組織了更專業的團隊,我們自己內部也有,然後跟外部的委員,其實一定會有很棒的公共藝術計畫會提出來。"},{"start":7111.525,"end":7133.902,"text":"是,我們中央的社宅的社區融合我覺得我們要去做一個這個表彰那除了社區以外社宅很重要臺北市民最關心的就是社宅的租金的定價的公式因為過去在臺北市我們曾經發生過有天價租金的社宅那就是在這個地方政府"},{"start":7134.462,"end":7161.358,"text":"各個縣市之間對於社宅租金的訂定公式竟然不同。比方說臺北市一度要把地價稅、房屋稅都要去納入這個公式裡面其中一部分。那為什麼要納入公司?因為他要賺自償率嘛。所以對於社宅租金的定價有過很多的討論以及辯論。那未來中央的社宅、中央社宅開始在臺北市好幾樣要啟用然後甚至在規劃。我們對於租金的定價有沒有什麼樣的原則?"},{"start":7162.699,"end":7184.702,"text":"各位報告,其實當然這一題經過了很多的討論,那我們大概發現到說,如果像台北和桃園目前純然以所得稅申報的資料來當作租金定價的基礎,其實確實有蠻大的副作用已經陸陸續續產生出來。所以我們真的很誠懇地跟地方政府在溝通,我們建立一套,"},{"start":7185.302,"end":7210.164,"text":"可以讓社宅制度長治久安,也讓民眾可負擔,均衡這個的一個方案。那實質上其實全國多數縣市是認同,那當然還在持續溝通當中。我相信啊,社宅租金的計算的標準應該是一國一制才是對的啦。那所以說這部分大家再多討論,我相信是有solution的啦。"},{"start":7210.464,"end":7227.558,"text":"市長我必須要特別在這個時候提醒你,就是因為我認為我們中央設宅的租金啊,你一旦定出來了,它有定毛的效果。是。你有可能幫忙抑制設宅的租金,你如果沒有試算好,也有可能不小心出現了漲價。"},{"start":7229.059,"end":7252.004,"text":"所以說我們要有原則要有公式也要有試算當然當然因為其實有些現階段收費的問題其實我剛講很多副作務已經跑出來後續的收尾處理其實困難度蠻高的那當然這部分我們再繼續溝通請務必要進行周詳的試算那我們希望社宅的租金訂定出來是確實達到我們要照顧弱勢的原則"},{"start":7252.924,"end":7259.391,"text":"本則上當然是可負擔,可負擔,但是因地制宜還是要不同。好,謝謝。我要跟主席見30秒。我請這個速發部次長。理事請。"},{"start":7268.908,"end":7292.605,"text":"市長在我們前瞻的凍結案裡面有一項是我們通訊網路數位韌性計畫那因為我們事務發布對衛星的發展這有非常的關切當時這個凍結的理由其中一項是台灣的衛星通訊有憂慮由特定業者有政治傾向導致國家安全受影響我們現在的這個衛星計畫已經有跟兩家業者進行合作了對不對我們有沒有排除這個疑慮"},{"start":7294.126,"end":7319.469,"text":"跟委員報告,現在目前我們的這個所謂的非同步衛星的部分已經有跟兩家國外的業者合作,那這個兩家業者我們都有確認過目前沒有關的。是哪兩家?一個是SES一個是OneWeb。好,所以不會有特定政治傾向國家安全受影響的?OneWeb這家公司有英國政府的特別股權。是,那這一次呢這個跟OneWeb公司的合作在我們花蓮鎮在裡面是不是也有所運用?"},{"start":7320.211,"end":7347.979,"text":"是,謝委員的隨詢,我們這一次是特別在花蓮政戰的時候,我們第一時間就請我們的電信技術中心啟動我們的網路應變車,然後接下來我們第二天也感謝國軍跟內政部的合作,幫我們利用直升機幫我們把這個可移動式的OneWeb的接收器都被遇到天下,直接啟用。最後要提醒的就是,我想我們今天已經達到凍結的條件,但是呢,解凍的條件,但是我們希望要持續來投注預算,我們所謂網路的韌性計畫非常的重要,我們希望要持續的來進行。"},{"start":7349.179,"end":7354.143,"text":"謝謝委員,我們繼續努力。好,謝謝吳佩玲的諮詢。緊接我們請葛如君委員諮詢。謝謝主席。有請交通部、教育部、數位部、次長以及國科會副主委。謝謝。點名到部會的次長跟副主委,請出列。"},{"start":7380.479,"end":7401.774,"text":"四位次長好,最近有一則新聞在社群平台引起了許多的阿宅跟民眾討論。有一款可以提前通報的地震APP,因為通報率很高,引起民眾的注意,一週內被下載了30萬次。APP爆紅以後,媒體追蹤發現是17歲的高中生,被稱讚是一人贏過國家隊。"},{"start":7403.255,"end":7428.38,"text":"雖然我個人並不一定同意這種過度天才化的描述方式但是同學有心能做這樣的東西應該是一個美談但是因為剛好漏了未經授權使用氣象署的數據有違反氣象法的疑慮最後不斷地進行道歉在APP道歉一次在媒體向全國的民眾道歉想請教一下交通部的陳次長氣象法第18條確實有這樣的規定"},{"start":7431.081,"end":7456.293,"text":"但是那已經都執行很久了,近半年有沒有查到這些未經通報、未經授權引用數據的案件,有嗎?我跟委員報告,這一部分我手頭上現在是沒有資料。希望去查一下,不要說是林同學出來了,我們就來調查林同學。那他這麼長的時間,我們應該要早就發現了,不然的話民眾可能會合理懷疑啊,西巷署是不是呆乎職守啊?"},{"start":7456.513,"end":7474.206,"text":"這個APP已經上架快一年的時間,都沒有查到,那媒體來報導了以後呢,一人贏過國家隊,腦兇,然後來調查,我覺得這,我們相信不是,但希望證明給民眾看。同時我們也來看一下氣象署官方的地震預報的APP,裡面的平均評分只有2顆星,滿分是5顆。"},{"start":7476.408,"end":7493.385,"text":"民眾就說奇怪了為什麼我們用民間做出來的地震到達前就會示警中央做出來卻有時候不行民眾反應有時候會甚至晚3到5分鐘這些負面的評價不知道交通部有沒有看到難道官方開發出來的APP不夠好用"},{"start":7494.005,"end":7519.208,"text":"有人做出更好用的那就解決這個更好用的人那就變成官方的最好用我相信不是所以我們想要來提倡一下公私協力我相信我們行政院各部份應該都是一個團隊那個數位部次長在這我們幫你們廣告一下這就是近期你們宣傳的公共城市平台 code.gov.tw為什麼我會這樣講呢是因為我非常認同KNY"},{"start":7519.989,"end":7538.362,"text":"台灣天氣地震速報APP的開發者陳坤柱先生的觀點,說市場應該直接面對第一線民眾,尤其這樣個人化的服務可能跟高階技術的研發系統都非常有關,對此一定可能是沒有民間單位擅長,因此公私協力非常重要。"},{"start":7539.022,"end":7556.34,"text":"所以五花八門的這些東西又要耗費巨資,我們是不是來響應一下,希望可以響應這些open data,public code,我只是在幫你廣告,不用擔心。希望用這種方式,可能不只是都沒有bug,還可以變得更加的好用。那請交通部陳次長請回。"},{"start":7558.198,"end":7583.545,"text":"希望可以響應一下好不好不會交流那現在呢同時也是英雄出少年的時代我們來看一下2018年呢就有一個美國的女孩子高中生聽到網路霸凌的消息做了一個叫Rethink的一個鍵盤APP她們自己偵測不當字眼提醒使用者多想三秒去解希望能夠降低這些網路霸凌的問題這個APP這個高中生的開發者人生發生轉變不僅開了公司上電視的節目"},{"start":7587.186,"end":7613.382,"text":"還在節目上面受到投資人入股20%其他例子我就不用講了很多英雄出少年名人高中的高三生這個教育部次長知道這個例子嗎有沒有給予鼓勵有沒有嘉獎他有沒有讓這個變成一個好的範例這我們回去再確認世界的比賽那我們希望這都是好的事情但是我們到底有沒有一些相關的資助想請教一下三位次長"},{"start":7614.505,"end":7628.732,"text":"假設有一位高中生要投入科技創新的研究,比如說開發一款APP,未來可能來申請大學入學,請教一下教育部、數位部以及國會會,目前是否有關的研究計畫補助,可以申請有還是沒有?"},{"start":7630.714,"end":7631.234,"text":"對此希望能夠相關"},{"start":7645.333,"end":7665.368,"text":"但到底有還是沒有,一個月內將研議結果以書面提供為本席,同時也建請教育部去設立一個窗口,協助有興趣進行科研創新的高中職學生,提供他們包含政府資料授權的使用方法,以相關的政策跟法規面向的諮詢,並將研議結果於一個月內以書面提供為本席。"},{"start":7666.406,"end":7670.428,"text":"副主委,今年1月9日,全國人民都受到一則非常轟動的國家級警報。陳建仁院長甚至在當時質詢說:「哎喲,飛彈來了!」結果改口說是看錯了。"},{"start":7686.616,"end":7704.095,"text":"這個我們在防災中心的網站上面查詢,到今天為止,國防部依然還是只有非但相關的防空警報。請教一下副主委,為什麼當時這個與範本不符的訊息,可以從災防訊息廣播平台CPE發送出去,難道這之前沒有檢核機制嗎?"},{"start":7705.826,"end":7730.187,"text":"跟委員報告,那這個是主管機關,那我們災防中心是一個平台,那主管機關他的範本是原來寫好的。所以他可以不用檢核就送出去了是不是?他們內部是有檢核的。所以他們檢核,你們這裡不檢核嗎?我來看一下,事實上你們在平台測試唯一運作作業裡面的第8項裡面,就有說知識通安全及訊息內容檢核的檢測作業。"},{"start":7731.788,"end":7752.473,"text":"測試的時候要檢核,發送出去的時候不用嗎?後來國防部雖然更正了訊息寫launch vehicle,但是這兩則訊息,不管這一則還是那一則,不管是飛彈還是launch vehicle,全部都不在範本的樣態裡面。其次,我們也看到告警的資料裡面,也完全沒有這方面的,就是說,"},{"start":7753.153,"end":7774.429,"text":"我完全沒有看到關於MISO訊息發布的記錄我們在民生市井公開資料平台的訊息1月9號則是空的啦1月9號這一天的這個訊息竟然在各個平台有三種不同的樣態是不是要篡改歷史的記錄啊還是到底是什麼原因內部的溝通流程到底是什麼"},{"start":7774.969,"end":7799.972,"text":"有沒有公文往來的記錄到底發生了什麼樣的事情我們去考察的時候跟我們說歷史資料可以下載結果我們真的去用的時候只能下載7天我想要建議一下公開的這種特殊的情況首先應該要相互對比要檢核再來呢如果有特殊的狀況考核考量的過程當中的溝通記錄完整的報告都應該要提供出來"},{"start":7800.532,"end":7827.411,"text":"同時也應該依循程序建立新的訊息範本所以在此本席請國科會針對1月9號國防部警報事件的完整時間軸歷史資料中間有沒有會議記錄公文聯絡了誰、什麼樣的判斷討論程序依據等等請在因為這已經發生過請在三天內提供本席完整報告本席以上的建議請一個月內研議改善作為以後提供會便行"},{"start":7827.751,"end":7836.015,"text":"同時剛剛這些樣態都要拜託整理一下,可以嗎?好,可以。可以。好,謝謝葛如今委員的諮詢。緊接著請王洪瑋委員諮詢。好,謝謝主席。我請農業部。農業部,督此。"},{"start":7858.717,"end":7883.121,"text":"委員好、次長好。在我們審計部在檢討整個的前瞻期的預算裡面,曾經發現我們的前瞻預算的比例的分配出現了大小眼。很多的縣市,它所拿到整體的前瞻預算的金額事實上是有非常非常大的差距。"},{"start":7883.661,"end":7900.819,"text":"譬如說像台北市跟高雄市的差距就將近十倍之多。好那現在我想請問一下在治水的部分因為過去台北市是一塊錢都沒有拿到但是在去年底的時候"},{"start":7901.48,"end":7920.648,"text":"台北市的翡翠水庫管理局曾經以前瞻基礎建設的特別預算水與環境向下向我們農業部申請了有關於水與環境的預算,而且預算的金額極少,但是最後好像是被打回票。"},{"start":7921.468,"end":7938.828,"text":"我不曉得次長知道這事情嗎?我不清楚你不清楚的話我希望次長能夠回去就是針對我們臺北市翡翠水庫管理局其實這個金額非常少只有700萬可是呢仍然以所謂的跟這個"},{"start":7940.35,"end":7940.37,"text":"請辭次"},{"start":7974.684,"end":7984.395,"text":"市長,在你們的報告裡面,你們說觀光署為了加速擴大吸引國際觀光客,編列了53億。"},{"start":7988.206,"end":8012.017,"text":"而且呢,說到113年3月底,累計的分配數是28.84億,執行率百分之百。而且主要是辦理什麼呢?辦理這個抽獎。然後針對242萬名的旅客都可以參加抽獎。請問一下,我們現在這個抽獎的計畫還在執行中嗎?"},{"start":8015.64,"end":8028.695,"text":"目前還在執行中還在執行中 那個抽獎是多少錢?五千塊嗎?五千元 對就是只要來台的國際觀光客、旅客都可以去抽獎 中獎率是不是很高啊?中獎率我沒有算過"},{"start":8033.91,"end":8046.154,"text":"目前大概應該是講有265萬人登記目前有39萬人是中獎265萬人登記39萬人中獎所以這個比例也蠻高的請問一下你們光是這個抽獎花在這個國際觀光客旅客的這個金額有多少?你們都要爭取預算解凍你們這個是被凍結的啊"},{"start":8065.702,"end":8067.424,"text":"所以光是花債給國際觀光旅客,給他們抽獎,台灣其實蠻大方的,就有25億之多,是吧?"},{"start":8084.035,"end":8094.56,"text":"時間暫停主席時間暫停這個是他們來解凍的在他們的報告裡面然後上來還在一問三不知你們要預算解凍嗎?相關的預算執行是25億25億之多你覺得這個有效嗎?花25億去給國際觀光旅客這真的是大禮包耶25億耶"},{"start":8111.648,"end":8115.39,"text":"中央政府疫後強化經濟與社會福利及全民共享經濟成果特別預算"},{"start":8134.796,"end":8160.311,"text":"所以我要講的是我們今天花了這麼多的錢有25億是用作是去讓你來抽獎而且抽獎率非常高可是問題是我們還有這麼大的觀光逆差所以請問這樣的大禮包這樣的花錢方式是對我們吸引國際觀光客真的有幫助嗎?"},{"start":8162.112,"end":8182.445,"text":"我想跟委員報告一下我們從這樣的一個預算來看其實在剛才也特別提到112年我們也透過這樣的方式也達成了這個600萬的人次那到目前為止呢其實這樣的方式剛才有特別提到像韓國的旅客經過這樣的方式他其實他已經恢復到疫情前的95%其實已經幾乎是快"},{"start":8185.607,"end":8195.194,"text":"所以你認為人家來是為了來幫給我們抽獎的嗎?是因為我覺得這是舍本逐末,其實老蔣這真的是舍本逐末。這樣的一個又一手段方法吸引這個國際觀光客來台,他來台以後"},{"start":8200.998,"end":8201.739,"text":"所以你要持續到什麼時候?你要用這樣的方式持續到什麼時候?"},{"start":8222.043,"end":8250.762,"text":"就是我們特別預算到114年結束為止。114年,所以一直要到明年底,有繼續這樣的大禮包。然後另外我要特別說,我非常不滿意,就是這個事在於報告,我還不是出現在報告外的題目。然後你們顯然準備不足,然後顯然你們對這筆預算,你們是覺得好像要不要給你們無所謂。我覺得剛才光是看你們,你們已經耽誤我很多時間在那邊交頭接耳。好,謝謝。"},{"start":8252.823,"end":8253.644,"text":"請內政部花次及國土署"},{"start":8280.523,"end":8280.603,"text":"前瞻基礎建設計畫"},{"start":8310.183,"end":8318.369,"text":"有關臺灣地震其實狀況非常頻繁我想你非常清楚外強在全國各縣市"},{"start":8320.39,"end":8343.948,"text":"極端氣候、熱脹冷縮也好,包括地震過後外牆的剝落,這個部分是很多民眾所關心。所以常常在訊息上、在LINE上看到很多長輩都在講說,地震過後盡量走到高樓大廈稍微要注意一點,要快點經過。我們之前也有看過冷氣外掛在上面,然後砸到大學生在等公車的大學生。"},{"start":8344.969,"end":8370.566,"text":"我覺得在這一塊上當然我們內政部目前有相關的法規就是我們可以用相關的這個都更的補助辦法來做重建、整建跟維護對不對是好但是我就必須要提這個重建整建的維護我們有綁一些條件比如說都要用更新會或者是管委會或者是更新事業單位來做申請"},{"start":8372.13,"end":8394.288,"text":"但是花次你應該很清楚臺灣很多老舊社區根本這些四五十年或三十年以上的根本很多人連管委會都沒有成立所以各縣市其實現在有更多的彈性就是說有些是以凍為主或甚至是以戶為主他們就整合之後他們就聯署之後有一定的證明方式之後他們就可以來申請"},{"start":8395.849,"end":8420.983,"text":"面臨地震過後我其實我非常的期待希望中央可以在相關的補助要點辦法上做修正可以有更多的彈性在全國試用上我們可以給予更多的協助謝謝委員這部分確實我們也在思考一方面當然我們現在有補助這個公寓也成立管委會但是確實很不積極啦很不積極所以說您剛剛講的方向正是我們現在正在"},{"start":8421.323,"end":8448.705,"text":"那它是這個部分可不可以在一個禮拜之內我們可以有更明確的方向出來比較難這麼快因為終究它是一個大政策它需要而且那什麼時候可以出來你也了解什麼時候可以出來520的介面所以說可能還是要到新政府這是大多數的事務官都是在的這些他們都要繼續研究所以你可不可以給我一個時間點讓地方各縣市還有現在面臨30年20年以上我就不要再花時間其實地方政府如果已經鬆綁了我們都會認同"},{"start":8451.545,"end":8452.065,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8476.332,"end":8476.672,"text":"接下來我要問第二個有關都更的問題"},{"start":8505.3,"end":8528.005,"text":"花子有關於我們現在容積管制在容積管制之前圓融的認定的部分我們過去之前是用鉛筆來去做計算這個部分有關於都更本65條的獎勵方案我想你非常清楚在中高樓層我們都知道中高樓層整合上其實非常不容易來看再看下一張所以我們早期是用還沒有實施這個"},{"start":8531.086,"end":8531.446,"text":"主管預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":8562.248,"end":8589.527,"text":"佣金管制之後,因為沒有圓融界認定,所以我們只適用一種獎勵,這個就會牽涉到兩種問題,一般很多人都覺得說我應該是用建造申請來去切那個界面點,所以在現在面臨很多實施佣金管制前後,會有兩種標準剛好卡在那個界線上,這個就是65條的部分,所以花次我知道這個部分我們內部已經在做討論,"},{"start":8590.247,"end":8591.088,"text":"主席"},{"start":8606.732,"end":8606.952,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8630.322,"end":8658.548,"text":"可以的話容我們一個月之內好不好好 謝謝花次然後另外全國的都更的腳步我們都希望透過都更的法令的鬆綁也好你們覺得合理的方式來處理包括協議合建的部分相關的這個契稅跟土地增值稅的相關的減免可以比照我們現在權力變換的部分我也希望可以朝這方向去思考"},{"start":8659.368,"end":8674.104,"text":"包括我們時程獎勵的部分現在在113年5月16號其實我們就剛好到這個期限所以新的那個時程獎勵的部分我覺得可能可以繼續思考是不是有機會往"},{"start":8675.145,"end":8675.525,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":8700.826,"end":8702.969,"text":"因為10層獎勵終究還是有它的本質,不宜再有新的10層,那就沒有10層獎勵的意義。我們有開另外的獎勵項目來替代。"},{"start":8717.048,"end":8718.169,"text":"謝謝李延秀委員的質詢,請接受蘇曉慧委員質詢。"},{"start":8743.851,"end":8765.686,"text":"好,謝謝主席。我們請花次長。花次,不用坐了啦。我叫你坐得快,你就不來。花次請。我本來是想要請所有的在場的各部會次長啦。因為我覺得我要講的這個跟大家都有關係。不過這樣太多人了,所以因為下一題也還是花次的題,所以就整齊你代表啦。好,委員好。好,次長好齁。"},{"start":8766.843,"end":8778.101,"text":"我想今天在這裡再次的處理前瞻預算這應該是蔡英文總統任期內我們大家一起處理前瞻預算的最後一次其實在這裡講前瞻我真的是非常的感慨"},{"start":8779.564,"end":8794.419,"text":"因為從106年蔡英文總統提出了這個前瞻的計畫之後其實我們在國會殿堂裡橋也進行了非常多的攻防就在這個空間就在這個台子上就在這個角落我就站在這裡對著國民黨丟來的麵粉和丟來的水球這整間的狀況當時我想大家應該記憶猶新"},{"start":8803.067,"end":8828.793,"text":"我就在這裡講其實前瞻不是只有支援高科技前瞻前瞻翻轉成瞻就是前瞻我們就是要拿這樣的特別預算到台灣過去沒有足夠經費的鄉村到其他的地方讓我們的基礎建設可以做得更好所以剛剛有許多國民黨委員還是持續在問說"},{"start":8829.793,"end":8858.624,"text":"前瞻預算做了這麼多年,到底人民的感受如何?我也想跟大家分享,也順便謝謝所有辛苦的公務人員,因為有你們的支持,大家可以看一看。你看,有前瞻計算的配合,然後還有各位的努力,就像我的選區,剛剛的新陰題外變道,一條再與河道徵地徵路的新路開闢出來了,我們的交通瓶頸打通了。"},{"start":8859.364,"end":8888.384,"text":"還有我們的山陰縣、樹林萬大縣過去經費不足的捷運沒有辦法凍光的捷運凍起來了現在一步一步朝向要實現的狀況在接下來更實際的台水公司因為各位有了預算之後再加上大家的努力我們的高地現在有水喝山下不淹水山上有水喝甚至是市區的水管都可以更新這不就是人民期待的好生活嗎"},{"start":8889.845,"end":8904.324,"text":"說實在的我們從剛剛的軌道建設到現在地方居民每天在走的人行步道每一項每一項甚至是連教育部相關搬搬有冷氣也是有這樣的前瞻預算在裡面"},{"start":8905.62,"end":8925.094,"text":"所以要知道這樣的一筆錢一筆預算如果用得好真的是對過去少資源易住到的鄉村就像我的選區也沒有很遠是新北市的樹林因割新莊而已但我們可以改善的基礎建設真的非常的多"},{"start":8925.894,"end":8946.985,"text":"市長,今天你在這裡,剛剛也有很多建設是跟你的部會相關的。請問,你個人支不支持,如果我們520的新政府上任之後,我們再來找尋裁員,或者編列計畫,我們再提供一個像前瞻這樣的預算,你覺得可行嗎?你支持嗎?"},{"start":8948.171,"end":8971.206,"text":"我想國家建設本來就是要有些大破例來執行一些大方案,那任何一個新政府的上台,確實是有這樣子的必要,來用一個更大的視野改善一些長期結構性的困境,那用充分的預算來執行是對的。老實講啦,今天是在談解凍,但是我們回去地方,大家都在問,委員,你把他們都裝水貢啊?"},{"start":8973.427,"end":8974.007,"text":"一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案。"},{"start":8990.293,"end":9002.771,"text":"兩邊的政黨在這裡吵得不可開交好像前瞻是很邪惡的不好的他們都一直在反對但是回到地方以後等於是大家都在吵吵的是預算可不可以多來一點我選區"},{"start":9004.287,"end":9033.433,"text":"變成是在院內吵架,院外爭取,這種奇特的現象。所以我是覺得啦,如果可以的話,未來的新政府上任之後,實在是應該繼續延續這樣的好的概念啦。這是第一題,也藉這個機會向在場所有認真執行計畫的公務員人士致上謝意。謝謝你們改善了所有台灣人民的基礎建設以及每天的生活。"},{"start":9034.639,"end":9061.92,"text":"好那另外第二題的話其實也是要問次長啦這就真的是你的題目大家也都在問耐震補強的部分喔那我想耐震補強其實是在地震之後我們在做了非常多的地震相關救災也好補助措施也好另外一個針對既有狀況的加強那次長你知道我們現在的耐震補強其實有計畫但是執行率不是很好你知道最主要的原因你會歸結於什麼"},{"start":9063.595,"end":9078.602,"text":"我想第一個當然整合的困難還有這個整合困難整合困難是關鍵那當然就是另外就是費用的負擔是啊另外的費用負擔嘛其實是這兩個最多第三個還有另外一個啦其實是"},{"start":9080.022,"end":9105.6,"text":"這個地方的這個建物如果被評價為說需要內政補強那對當地居民來講哇!我的房價是不是會有影響其他的人會不會覺得我這不安全其實心情上反而是變成他去評估反而他受損害那我想市長你很清楚這個狀況另外兩點也是我完全同意的所以我認為其實我們是不是可以跟國土署這邊商量一下把這個意見帶回去"},{"start":9106.54,"end":9129.846,"text":"我會提出一部專法那也請國土署這邊是不是可以一起來討論我們確實是應該制定一個專法在經費上面可以更大力的補足在同意權的部分上面在區分所有權人同意的層數上面是不是可以比照都更或者老舊建物等等它可以往下下修讓這個同意可以比較快執行那最後"},{"start":9131.006,"end":9152.314,"text":"與其說它被評估為該內政,它覺得心情上受損,不如我們是不是可以設計一個制度,你補強完內政,我給你一個徽章,代表是你這個建物已經經過內政補強。我覺得這樣反向思考,其實反而是可以鼓勵私部門來做這件事情,是這樣認同嗎?"},{"start":9153.394,"end":9164.507,"text":"謝委員真是太棒了這也是我們現在積極想要來做的事情那這樣的話是不是可以請國土署這邊在跟我們辦公室在藉由三法的部分進行討論下個會期我們共同提出謝謝謝謝蘇曉鶴委員的質詢我們休息10分鐘"},{"start":9777.295,"end":9779.978,"text":"好,請各位就座肅靜。我們繼續開會。好,我們繼續開會喔。那接著我們請林營委員質詢。林委員請。"},{"start":9800.814,"end":9801.134,"text":"有請書發部次長。"},{"start":9821.092,"end":9834.289,"text":"今年3月27日,本席在教育委員會質詢文化部史哲部長時,部長很明確地表達新聞有價、媒體溢價是世界各國都是現在進行式。"},{"start":9834.91,"end":9855.029,"text":"而且,文化部所輔導的北市報業工會也好,雜誌工會,他們都認同要積極推動媒體溢價法,又或者要設立培育第4權任性特別基金。所以我要請問次長,就是你是否同樣也支持新聞有價,或者認同台灣要設置媒體溢價法?次長。"},{"start":9858.485,"end":9882.902,"text":"謝謝委員隨選,那有關這個新聞有價這個部分沒有問題,行政院跟跨部會參與的,包括數位部、文化部,通常會都認為新聞有價,這個是完全沒有問題的。但是不是要用媒體議價法這個路線,目前行政院並沒有確認,而且世界各國也不是都走媒體議價法,媒體議價法在世界各國是少數,多數還是走那個所謂的著作權、著作理解權。"},{"start":9884.718,"end":9884.758,"text":"蘇慧卿議員"},{"start":9905.521,"end":9924.826,"text":"我的明定就是數位發展部就是主責機關。那我想歷經這個9個月的等待跟不連續的屆期,那這一次的會期我又再度的提案。那在這個9個月當中,我想各國的腳步是持續在前進。像是印尼,它已經這個簽署法令,就是"},{"start":9927.847,"end":9951.893,"text":"要求數位平台應付費才能使用媒體內容而最致力於將歐盟的著作臨階權概念內國法化的這個法國當然至今他無法有效的對於數位平台做出規範可是面對數位平台的這個楊鳳英偉他無奈的也只能一次次的開罰那我想台灣喔"},{"start":9954.816,"end":9974.621,"text":"就如同您說的,每個部位其實都認同新聞有價,可是至今我們還是不清楚主責單位到底是哪裡。討論了三年,還在澳洲的專法的模式,或者是歐盟的著作臨接權的模式在那邊搖擺不定。"},{"start":9976.542,"end":9997.282,"text":"國內學者已經說得非常明白,立法是確保媒體與平台公平競爭的唯一方法,新設專法是最好的方式。歐盟著作凍結犬的模式恐怕不是值得學習的方式。"},{"start":9998.883,"end":10019.639,"text":"成功大學法律系的許教授採取著作靈接權模式的法國為例。用法國的狀況來看,數位平台還是坐擁不對等的市場與協商方式,拒絕與媒體進行透明、客觀、公開與誠信的協商。"},{"start":10020.299,"end":10037.322,"text":"那最終你還是要仰賴所謂的競爭委員會的介入才可以發揮著作凝結權的功效。所以換句話說,如果達到實質有效的媒體議價,要求平台告知所謂的評估報酬等必要的資訊,"},{"start":10038.223,"end":10052.349,"text":"那而且在協商不成的時候要由仲裁委員會出面那並指定獨立監管人來進行後續的管理跟執行那這些都是必要的措施所以請教次長你認同這樣的說法嗎?"},{"start":10053.587,"end":10074.535,"text":"是,跟委員報告,其實委員剛有提到,這個議題在行政院的層級裡面也討論了3年。那所以其實跟著現在科技的進步,其實包含美國,包含歐盟,他們已經不是只有討論媒體溢價這個部分。現在最重要的概念是AI的資料探勘有沒有使用到媒體資料庫。那上個禮拜,"},{"start":10076.096,"end":10104.94,"text":"英國的金融時報剛剛跟OpenAI簽署了資料庫的授權也就是說當AI在進行語言學習使用新聞出版內容的時候它是怎麼有價的那去年底的時候紐約時報對不起美聯社也同樣簽署了一年一千萬美金的授權給OpenAI所以現在西方各國其實注目的是新聞內容怎麼樣保護起來不被所謂的AI大型平台"},{"start":10105.62,"end":10131.56,"text":"因為如果按照委員剛剛提示的澳洲模式的話不管是澳洲或者是紐西蘭或者是加拿大很清楚的看到目前他們所有的立法只有抓到Google一家所以所謂的強制一家法很可能也只會抓到Google一家但是現在有太多的AI平台在使用語言學習的時候很有機會讓我們的新聞出版因為新聞出版反映了各個時代的精確語言內容"},{"start":10133.444,"end":10161.709,"text":"那好,你剛剛提到Google,Google 3年3億數位共融基金到底能不能當作是所謂媒體溢價法的替代方案喔?那臺大的那個新聞所的教授林肇政有指出,他說Google的數位共融基金喔,他第一年有獲得補助的23個提案申請當中,雖然有17家新聞媒體跟民間的媒體,網路媒體,還有另外5家的科技公司跟一個大學系所,換句話說,"},{"start":10163.129,"end":10172.574,"text":"Google的這個數位共榮基金實際上它是補償新聞著作權和補償新聞著作權的損失無關。就是說長期使用新聞媒體的內容卻為付費的這個問題仍舊存在,沒有獲得解決。所以次長你如果說,照您剛剛說的,那你如何評價Google的數位共榮基金?"},{"start":10188.022,"end":10210.594,"text":"教育部的立場我們從來不認為3億的共榮基金會跟媒體溢價法有關係,那是Google針對所謂的新聞產業進行所謂的新創或使用科技的一筆基金,那個跟媒體溢價沒有關聯。是,所以你也認為媒體有價,可是媒體有價未必要用媒體溢價法來處理。當然。"},{"start":10212.475,"end":10214.356,"text":"那你有想到更好的方式嗎?"},{"start":10243.021,"end":10253.408,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位官員。我相信主計部還有主計長跟衛福部的次長。主計部副主計長、社福部的理事。請相關人員讓位一下好不好。"},{"start":10271.253,"end":10290.271,"text":"委員好你好這次我們前瞻計畫已經執行到第4期了所以剩下的不到800億元我想請教主席長還有次長我們這個前瞻計畫的重點很多都放在綠能、軌道、數位、城鄉等等的"},{"start":10291.192,"end":10314.082,"text":"好,我們來統計一下,自從2017年前瞻預算開辦至今,我想請問,最近呢,我們衛福部非常關心的就是食安的議題,食品安全網。所以我們對於這個上面的食安建設的投資,到底佔上限8400億元的百分之多少?"},{"start":10317.809,"end":10338.561,"text":"跟委員報告就是說我們這個前瞻的計畫當然是先有計畫再有預算所以計畫就是說因為透過我們有一個審查的機制然後所以我們並不會先預設說它要佔多少比例那它是有點是競爭型的概念所以你覺得你可能會花多少錢嗎"},{"start":10339.602,"end":10345.325,"text":"關於食安建設的投資算了一算居然僅佔上限的0.47%所以為什麼本席會關注這個議題因為大家也知道從去年的新聞至今不管是瘦肉精或是邊境查不完的這個外國進口的草莓、水果"},{"start":10368.957,"end":10396.035,"text":"還有最近這個禮拜保齡茶室的風暴才有第4個非常無辜的受害者身亡還有衛福部之前承諾兩三個月要把所有下游的蘇丹紅全部查完就是因為我們每次質詢你都告訴我們說量能不足、人力不足、抽檢不足所以我們沒有把事情做好因此也想要在這邊幫次長"},{"start":10398.683,"end":10398.743,"text":"第5次聯席會議"},{"start":10417.091,"end":10437.972,"text":"花在蓋房子是昆陽大樓基礎建設的整建更新。我也想請問主計長,如果說衛福部要做一些翻修、蓋實驗室、更新設備、器材等等,為什麼要用特別預算來做?公務預算你提出申請不是天經地義的事情嗎?"},{"start":10439.373,"end":10467.81,"text":"跟委員報告就是說這個透過特別預算當然就是同樣的事情但是我們認為它在急迫性上蠻重要所以針對這個部分所以就到特別預算來但是委員所關心的實在問題的確是我們要重視所以我想不管是未來是在特別預算或者是我們年度的預算只要衛福部有提出相關的計畫我想所以是說衛福部的這個大樓是很突然的需要整建"},{"start":10468.63,"end":10484.116,"text":"所以我們才撥特別預算給他不是他很突然而是說他有這個急迫性那因為我們可能在特別預算的時候有這個空間所以我們就讓他納便到特別預算那很明顯嘛所以難怪做得不夠好我們來看"},{"start":10485.837,"end":10506.717,"text":"你幫自己設定的KPI,衛福部透過聯合分工檢驗體系實品檢驗件數,你從110年開始看,每年都有8700件,等於每個月至少725。現在前瞻5期會到明年的8月結束,至少8個月也要有超過5800件的KPI,為什麼你幫自己編的是4200件?"},{"start":10511.221,"end":10527.128,"text":"那另外一個指標一般例行性食品檢驗件數每個月至少應該要5、6、6、6件啊可是你至少8個月也應該超過4萬5你也只給自己編了3萬件你不是已經覺得自己量能不足了嗎"},{"start":10529.55,"end":10558.556,"text":"委員好,那這個部份我是不是可以請我們食藥署的同仁來回答,可以比較知道說這個部份的執行概況。跟先生委員報告,事實上我們中央地方在執行這個食品檢驗的部份,每一年平均都會超過10萬件以上。所以這個是追加的?是。所以你追加為什麼你會覺得110年到現在你可以減少?因為我們最近反而食安是越來越嚴重。"},{"start":10559.841,"end":10586.836,"text":"報告委員,事實上不是只有前瞻基礎建設計畫的經費有支應在我們的食安檢驗上面。事實上我們每年的公務預算以及我們其他的科技預算還有社發經費,我們都有相當的經費在撥用在這個相關中央跟地方的檢驗上。好,所以我們幫次長一起爭取,在第5期的時候可不可以再多放一些心力在我們的食安。好,謝謝。時間到了。好,謝謝大家。"},{"start":10589.998,"end":10602.327,"text":"最後我也想跟次長一起跟我們主計長爭取這個癌症新藥基金是我們賴準總統很重要的一個政見因為現在癌症新藥納入健保起碼要兩年"},{"start":10603.428,"end":10628.695,"text":"跟日本韓國比起來是天差地遠他們幾十天啊所以現在我們的癌症死亡率五年存活率是嚴重落後先進國家包括我們所有的鄰近國家因此我們希望可以編列一個癌症新藥基金也有朝野立委十幾位都已經提出了要來修正癌症防治法的第16條我也想在這邊問一下"},{"start":10630.575,"end":10634.821,"text":"次長,是不是跟主計處會做一個可行性的評估報告?"},{"start":10636.928,"end":10662.52,"text":"這個部分我們朝向要設一個新藥基金可是要不要修法等等那個部分我們再來做一些研議那我們已經很努力的在爭取相關的預算有,你們現在用臨時撥補的方式可是癌友告訴我說他也許第一年可以獲得治療那第二年第三年呢因為剛剛衛福部部長也說每年的財源是非常不穩定的你也知道嘛對"},{"start":10664.341,"end":10664.941,"text":"有請教育部劉次長"},{"start":10689.614,"end":10696.103,"text":"委員長好 次長長我們同意片還沒有出來可以時間暫停一下嗎不好意思謝謝時間請暫停好"},{"start":10701.633,"end":10703.073,"text":"請各級機關應斟酌國家語言整體發展方案的書面用語規範,優先使用臺灣原住民語、臺灣客語、臺灣台語、麻族語及臺灣手語,"},{"start":10731.178,"end":10751.973,"text":"可是呢,我們來往下看發生了什麼事情。在最近,師大台灣系的多位教授聯名向行政院提出陳情,就是關於教育部拒絕把相關國家語言發展業務的名稱從閩南語改成台灣台語。那行政院就把這個文呢,發到這個國家語言發展法主管機關文化部,文化部再移文到教育部,結果教育部你們的回應是,"},{"start":10753.775,"end":10765.748,"text":"啟動課綱研修程序,找了地方政府課綱修訂小組諮詢會議的意見,無法取得共識,所以沒有辦法改。但是次長就您所知道,其實國家語言發展方案當中,難道教育部主管的業務只有跟課綱有關嗎?"},{"start":10768.369,"end":10786.662,"text":"跟委員報告,當然我們還包含國家語言整體發展方案裡面的方案,我們也有執行,是。好,那我們來看一個下一頁,來。那事實上我們看到這個除了台式大教授陳晴之外呢,我們來往下看喔。在國外有多個例子,有很多台灣的學者在海外教學的時候,他們在教台語文課程。"},{"start":10787.523,"end":10815.474,"text":"那可是我們卻被中國的學者或是中國的學生質疑說你們的教育部自己都在課綱跟相關的公文裡面說叫做閩南語你們憑什麼把你們在海外教這個台語叫做台語次長您覺得我們的學者或是我們在海外教台灣這些老師教授們他們心裡面作何感想委員報告這個議題的確我們現在已經進我們的課綱研修小組在討論但是如同次長您剛剛說的他不會只有跟課綱有關對不對"},{"start":10817.097,"end":10839.759,"text":"是,它另外還有是跟國家語言整理發展方案。是,那針對海外這個部分還有後續我要跟您討論的來下一頁。其實目前我們盤點整理有語文競賽的部分、語言檢定的部分、文學獎的部分、詞典名稱的部分,其實它都可以跟您剛剛說的課綱如果都還需要討論,但是光是在這些本土語言的業務上就有很多事情可以先行調整,但是教育部為什麼遲遲沒有動作?"},{"start":10842.47,"end":10869.506,"text":"公文報告,這個我們再檢討一下,但是如果是跟課綱有關的,的確目前還是遵循課綱。好,那我們尊重課綱啟動研修的相關討論專業會議,可是明明有很多線型可以更正的地方,但是教育部卻不更正,那因為時間有限了,我想要積極拜託教育部,全面盤點跟課綱沒有關的業務,例如說我剛剛說的語言檢定、語文競賽、文學獎、死點名稱,把閩南語改成台灣台語這件事情,這邊可以積極進行相關報告研究嗎?"},{"start":10870.226,"end":10887.965,"text":"是不是我們把一個月內把這個相關的報告就給委員?好,那我希望這個報告裡面呈現的不要再只是做相關研究的啟動,因為它確實可以做積極的調整。再來,如同您剛剛說的,有很多必須要拉到課綱討論會議的時候,請把這個概念再度嚴正地強調放入相關的討論當中。"},{"start":10889.771,"end":10899.844,"text":"我們就針對委員的兩個建議來提供報告。好,尤其是台語的主體性的部分。好,那這個部分先謝謝次長。那接下來要拜託那個體育署副署長,謝謝。"},{"start":10902.226,"end":10921.234,"text":"關於前瞻基礎建設的部分,在我的畫面左邊這個是之前體育署林德福署長,他當時前瞻計畫說要蓋6個球場作為發展台灣足球基地,我想你應該都有印象,可是回頭看目前真的蓋起來而且運作當中的只有一座男子足球場,而且這還是高雄的劉士芳委員積極認真爭取出來的結果,"},{"start":10923.275,"end":10951.278,"text":"回過頭來看其他經費到現在都變成田徑場的整修還有學校足球場的費用所以一旦台灣民間足球界談到前瞻談到六年足球計畫大家都非常非常的失望那今天在質詢的時間我要再次提醒副署長因為接下來我們還有優化全民運動與賽會環境計畫經費我們來看一下目前你們發出去的經費呢都落在哪裡全部都放在學校的整修或者是相關的興建可是明明大家"},{"start":10951.678,"end":10964.705,"text":"之前跟大家討論過的都會型小型共用足球場目前完全沒有看到相關的計畫那體育署現在還開放各縣市申請這些都是郊區跟設施的整建大家都在看體育署到底相關的態度是什麼"},{"start":10965.598,"end":10974.782,"text":"報告員,因為目前也有請各個縣市政府在盤點適當的區域。就是你們盤點,可是你們沒有更積極的說法,甚至你們沒有相關的要案,告訴縣市政府,不是把相關組場修好,有非常多非常多的社區俱樂部正在,他們都在找場地,他們都在找不到場地,但是你們明明在進行相關案件說明的時候,可以更積極的開放這個態度,那麻煩你們積極的調整。這部分目前18個案子,我們原則上都會給予責任。"},{"start":10992.97,"end":11020.64,"text":"這些案子我沒有問題我沒有要去擋他們的預算我說的是其他社區俱樂部他們的需求你們明明都知道我們再來邀好我們再來邀好那這個部分我們辦公室也會持續追蹤最後一分鐘我想要跟副署長討論一下上個月體育署辦的中學足球聯賽發生爭議我想你都知道美倫國中跟右昌國中那我不是專業裁判我不就上現場有沒有誤判做出決議可是我看了相關的影片我發現最後幾波的衝突不要說裁判跟球員現場其實沒有贏家怎麼說我們來往下看"},{"start":11022.04,"end":11026.963,"text":"在這個判決當中,居然有人在現場對裁判下指導棋,把原來的黃牌變成了紅牌。紅色衣服這個人,他是中學聯賽的裁判長。副署長請問你在足球比賽中,有任何人可以對現場的指揮裁判判法嗎?"},{"start":11043.771,"end":11052.896,"text":"跟委員報告,這個部分目前看起來應該是裁判長為了要阻止兩邊的選手進去有當下的衝突,所以他進場主要是把兩邊的選手這邊有隔開,不要讓他們進一步的衝突,然後在這個當下的話,"},{"start":11062.6,"end":11081.247,"text":"一切都是以那個裁判這邊的一個判決為最終的一個判決。那我們要說,事實上為什麼大家會對體育署之間,或是對這個事情有相關的討論,我想要先跟副署長分享。在比賽後這個孩子,他當場就告訴他爸媽他要把他的球鞋上網賣掉了。一雙五六千塊的球鞋他就不要了。"},{"start":11081.867,"end":11108.006,"text":"1、2千塊就要賣掉為什麼?孩子覺得這個大人的不公為什麼要他們來承擔?所以我這邊時間有限我想要快速拜託體育署體育署主辦中學足球聯賽裁判長這一次介入賽事爭議但真的不是第一次過往有非常多的案例請在兩週內提出完整報告不要再放任中學體總繼續讀後特定人事這件事情再來裁判養成不義相關的派令其實我覺得利益迴避你們都非常清楚也請你們積極的承擔相關你們必須要負的責任再來"},{"start":11111.008,"end":11135.012,"text":"體育每次現場大人的錯誤卻要小孩承擔體育署其實都知道我們辦公室非常非常多陳情都一直在告訴你們這一次事件我覺得相關調查報告後如果真的有疏失真的必須要向孩子道歉不要再讓他們承受相關我們大人所犯的錯誤目前有請高中體育總這邊提出完整的報告我們這邊也會再加以檢視阿針對這個個別的選手是不是容我們這邊也也請我們同仁這邊去先關心一下體育署之後補充說明好謝謝謝謝陳培委員的諮詢請接著請陳昭之委諮詢"},{"start":11149.77,"end":11150.011,"text":"有請李次"},{"start":11165.188,"end":11172.152,"text":"委員好,市長好。市長在凱開事件之後,衛福部有做了一些檢討,就是有關原來出養的評估是交給民間的社福團體來做,那也因為這個機構它從出養到安置,它是沒有它的財源的,所以只能從收養端的費用來支付。"},{"start":11185.16,"end":11199.196,"text":"但是這個情況之下機構可能會去找所謂的比較便宜的保姆甚至他就是目標就是達到出養那我覺得這個是有道德風險跟利益衝突的所以現在你們把出養評估又交回了給這個地方政府"},{"start":11200.197,"end":11221.198,"text":"那我這個非常認同,不過地方政府的人力的部分也希望中央要能夠去協助,不然因為人力的問題又卡住了。但是我要談的是說,現在只對出養的部分的評估交給回到政府來做,那收養評估呢?是不是還是由民間來做嗎?因為次長主要就是說凱凱這個事件,本來有個疼愛她的保姆,相處也很好。"},{"start":11222.219,"end":11239.901,"text":"他想要表達收養這個孩子他的保姆但是他被兒扶拒絕了那這個原因我不理解但是後來就悲劇了所以我是想了解說有關這個收養部分要怎麼做次長我自己都收養小孩的我要告訴你收養的問題其實沒有局外人想像的那麼簡單"},{"start":11241.483,"end":11242.724,"text":"修養人必須在不同媒合機構接受相關課程評估"},{"start":11271.323,"end":11272.604,"text":"政府的資料來看,終止收養的比率竟然高達五成。"},{"start":11288.3,"end":11314.728,"text":"也就是說收養通常它最後面的結果它不是個happy ending不是收養就是一個快樂的結局這個很多人反對代孕要求我們去收養我其實最接近才看到這個數字你看有一半是終止收養關係那終止收養會經過有三個方法一個雙方合議另外一個就是說法院判決那通常都是虐待等等那第三個是養父母死亡那我要談的是說"},{"start":11318.185,"end":11325.509,"text":"中止都是負面的嗎?即便養父母的時候你未必要去做這個中止關係,但是可見可能相處是負面的。市長你有掌握這個訊息嗎?有。一半以上都中止關係。對,它整個是包括所有的收養,不一定是每一個。成年、未成年都在裡面。"},{"start":11337.435,"end":11345.304,"text":"但是為什麼社會都在呼籲大家去收養叫不孕婦去收養為什麼你們都不出生收養其實是有很大的問題請次長再看我下面這一張其中屬於這個親屬關於收養前的評估現在兒少是有兩套標準"},{"start":11352.853,"end":11362.756,"text":"就是有親屬關係的他只要是這個收養人去法院申請就可以了但是另外就是像我一樣沒有血緣關係的反而要經過媒合機構、上課、面談、訪視當時我那個年代我要到法官那邊去了兩次我們四個人還有我交了一堆證件健康檢查證明、財產證明、收入證明、還良民證就是兩套標準在評估次長您覺得有血緣關係的收養就不用經過這些評估嗎?"},{"start":11381.902,"end":11398.857,"text":"基本上因為我們是在民法本來就有一些相關收養的一個機制在所以我們對於在五等親內的收養我們還是覺得是不用經過媒合機構可是還是要經過法院你這個法就是太落後了我們看右邊這個表是"},{"start":11399.778,"end":11400.939,"text":"有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。"},{"start":11430.839,"end":11452.213,"text":"法規跟不上,應該是說因為有血緣關係,如果還要再去透過媒合製作,但是我現在用結果跟你討論,事實上就是八分之八十是有親屬關係終止收養,你要從這個結果去看去檢討,那再來這個是一國兩制,另外還不只一國兩制,還有一國八制的,就剛才提到收養是一國兩制,"},{"start":11453.314,"end":11457.459,"text":"收費是一國八制,請市長看一下這個,不同的兒扶機構,收費從7萬到12萬,送到國外的要1萬美金。其實我認為這個成本,剛剛我提到會有一些顧慮,如果有兒扶的這個機構來處理,那我覺得成本應該由政府來負擔。"},{"start":11473.177,"end":11477.699,"text":"我是認為出養這件事不應該這個媒合應該由政府來做而不是在民間的團體來做那收費的問題會衍生這個因為收費問題就衍生剛剛我提到的會用比較便宜的保姆然後他可能會就是我的目標就是出養其實出養不是最好的結果"},{"start":11489.923,"end":11491.124,"text":"有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。"},{"start":11510.121,"end":11510.281,"text":"還是繼續委託給民間嗎?"},{"start":11532.1,"end":11553.407,"text":"這是因為又會看那個縣市政府的一個量能的問題那我要跟委員特別報告就是說我們也注意到說收養後對於這些收養家庭的服務其實是沒有提供的我們這次在修法裡面也認為說收養之後的家庭我們應該要給相關的支持服務謝謝市長 謝謝主席好 謝謝謝謝陳執照委員的諮詢請接著我們請陳玉珍委員諮詢"},{"start":11562.268,"end":11576.095,"text":"教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。"},{"start":11594.711,"end":11597.372,"text":"教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":11613.499,"end":11637.492,"text":"加速擴大吸引國際觀光客的預算凍結三百萬書面報告有提到團客部分會提供五千到五萬元的獎助金如果長時間的加倍一萬到五萬元自由行旅客的部分是提供五千元的抽獎機會一共五十萬份、一百一十連二十萬份、一百一十三連十五萬份、一百一十連十萬份賴準總統最近也有提到前一陣子"},{"start":11642.374,"end":11648.615,"text":"12月去年底選舉也有提到鼓勵我們金門要吸引國際觀光客這個你們知道嗎?這個賴準總統的這個政見你們知道嗎?瞭解瞭解齁好那你們知道現在因為兩岸關係這個台客沒有到金門嘛那入客最近也還沒有開放到金門現在都還沒有開放所以金門的現在觀光產業比這個疫情期間還要慘這個是店家說的也的確是這樣子"},{"start":11670.599,"end":11690.935,"text":"請問你們在推動這個以前你們在推動這個國旅嘛觀光署也知道這個國旅的安心旅遊方案啊都會考慮到我們離島的旅遊加碼那請問這次的吸引國際觀客有沒有比照我們金門金門有沒有比照當初推動這個國旅啊我們離島要加碼不然那個國際觀客怎麼會到金門來他到台灣來還要再做分析過去就不願意啦這個這個怎麼辦咧你們的計畫在哪裡"},{"start":11695.553,"end":11716.449,"text":"我想委員這部分因為整個前瞻的預算裡頭有關吸引國際觀光客是它是整體的所以是整體的嘛整體就是包括颱風金嘛那如果金門必須沒有用委員稍微說明一下所以不管是自由行或者是團客的部分我們可以針對這樣的一個特殊訊或離島或是是因為如果金門沒有誘因"},{"start":11718.43,"end":11719.751,"text":"委員會後提供的相關加碼辦法計畫提供給本席"},{"start":11733.547,"end":11733.667,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":11758.938,"end":11764.742,"text":"國際旅客才願意到金門去,謝謝交通部,謝謝。接著我們請經濟部,我看到你們的計畫裡頭,你們書面報告裡頭有關於推動傳統市級攤鋪升級的轉型計畫裡頭,有被凍結3000萬,那你們的報告裡頭,經濟部有提出來,你們要輔導100處的傳統市級攤鋪,位於北、中、南、東,這個4個地方,對不對?沒錯吧?我們金門在哪裡?"},{"start":11787.077,"end":11787.538,"text":"有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。"},{"start":11810.7,"end":11827.657,"text":"你這個北中南東我們到底算哪裡?這個中央政府對金門永遠是有的地方算北區什麼經濟部啊,有的算南區,中華電信啊,有的算什麼?不知道,反正東西南北都有,中區,水利署是中區,中華電信是南區,這個什麼東西是北區的,國稅局是北區?"},{"start":11828.758,"end":11852.745,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上我們是每一年只有3年的執行計畫嘛對每一年我們對你這個100歲有沒有我們金門離島有沒有你告訴我就好了有齁對有多少勒有包含有包含有在哪裡要去哪裡參加北東南東還要不要金門辦要去哪裡參加你告訴我如果金門有人要參加要去哪裡參加我們可以事實上我們也可以規劃到離島來做說明好那就幫我們辦一個然後幫我們金門辦一區好沒有問題沒有問題好謝謝那名額有吧是"},{"start":11857.048,"end":11880.814,"text":"有齁?有齁?好,謝謝。這個,今天那個第4次首長會議,水利署啦,這個我們已經上次也提過齁,我們自來水廠欠財政部齁,上次問過財政部,我們欠他地方建設基金2.4億,我們會欠他是因為我們把中央應該負擔的水的這個預算,我們自己來負擔,然後財政部要我們先借錢給中央,先墊付,以後他會還我們,水利署知道這件事情吧?"},{"start":11881.859,"end":11897.319,"text":"知道這件事情嗎?這個13.55億是金門縣電當行政院電的,對吧?這個中央有核定說我們先電,電了後叫說你們要還我們,那現在財政部那個基金要收起來了,你們又沒有要把錢給我們,要我們要去哪裡拿勒?"},{"start":11897.679,"end":11916.992,"text":"不是,當時的這個計畫依照行政院核定,主席總書室要求說建設的部分要經門縣政府來製作,營運的部分的利息負擔當然...你們要來,我們推選的部分你們要分年補貼給我們對不對?你們不但補貼不夠,而且還遲延撥款,我們今年拿到是前年我們幫你們中央政府墊的,對不對?"},{"start":11917.412,"end":11946.429,"text":"我們這個每年我們都有爭取大院來支持這個預算我們金門立法院會支持你不用擔心你們經濟部怎麼可以慈嚴付款給我們呢我們每兩年的利息要找誰算財政部要跟我們收利息你們我們要找誰收包括委員因為還有包括澎湖還有連江對啦他們會爭取我爭取金門你告訴我金門你要怎麼處理自來水本來就不是地方政府的事情在寄有的這個預算裡面盡量來撥那你這個錢我們的利息要不要還我們這麼多年每一年都慈嚴付款"},{"start":11948.034,"end":11972.68,"text":"按照法定利率就可以啊?我們依照立法院審定的這個預算：所以你們應該憑預算還我們利息啊?我們要還財政部,你們要還我們啊?你們都不還我們,現在財政部在跟我們比啊?每年都有還,每年都有還每年都遲延復還,是不是事實?不是,每年都要累計前一年的平均的這個水債的部分對啦,你們是不是都晚付嘛?我們先墊,你們是不是都晚付兩年?因為他有分20到40年的這個成本來﹖是不是晚付?"},{"start":11973.769,"end":11978.29,"text":"謝謝陳議員的質詢今天上午的質詢到12點半那中午休息一個小時下午1點半開始休息時間呢官員如果要休息或吃飯"},{"start":12000.896,"end":12006.381,"text":"我們樓下802會議室已經借託。好,緊接著我們請張宏祿委員質詢。不好意思,我請交通部。我請交通部陳次。陳委員。不好意思。"},{"start":12028.425,"end":12047.452,"text":"市長,我們那時候前瞻預算,其實有很多很多地方需要停車場的部分,都是前瞻預算去處理。也很感謝中央的支持,在我們板橋總共有7座停車場,"},{"start":12050.313,"end":12064.704,"text":"但我要在這邊也是要說就是像我們板橋是一個非常非常需要停車場的地方我們整個新北市的統計我們現在板橋有4萬多個汽機車的停車位但"},{"start":12070.928,"end":12092.481,"text":"以整個新北市來看,我們有百萬輛的汽車,超過兩百萬輛的機車,那很多人都會去板橋,因為恰公也好,搭捷運運,搭火車,搭高鐵,所以我們板橋就是真的是非常需要停車的區位,那我想請教一下,"},{"start":12093.462,"end":12104.051,"text":"那前瞻結束之後啊,那我們如果還要繼續希望有這個停車場可以蓋,是不是只能剩這個公務預算補助?"},{"start":12106.685,"end":12107.325,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":12130.816,"end":12144.028,"text":"抱歉至於耳後前瞻的預算結束之後耳後相關是不是還有停車場的預算可來供大家來各地方政府來提出申請這部分呢我想我們交通部會去積極的來原議"},{"start":12148.07,"end":12158.744,"text":"除了公務預算之外,我們能不能提出一些誘因或鼓勵地方政府新建停車場,或是可以採取考慮BOT的方式?"},{"start":12161.067,"end":12161.187,"text":"經濟部林市長"},{"start":12193.737,"end":12218.137,"text":"委員好,次長你好。我先請教一下,其實我們自來水管老舊,其實常常都會有爆管或什麼的。我也知道這幾年其實我們花了很多很多的錢在做這件事。不過這個新聞大家都有看到,我們板橋可能是比較老的城市,常常爆管。"},{"start":12220.979,"end":12244.999,"text":"那我的意思就是說,其實我們這幾年做那麼多,我們都有看到了。但像我們板橋這種特別比較老的城市,然後人口又多,那它可能的水壓什麼的這些可能會比較沒有辦法負擔。能不能說啊,這個考量一下,可以優先把板橋真的很老的水管可以先來處理。"},{"start":12247.319,"end":12264.435,"text":"謝謝委員的支持,我想我們自來水的老舊水管的太舊換新是一個很重要的工作,那您剛剛提到板橋地區,我請我們自來水公司來做更進一步的評估,那把比較老舊的部分看看能不能有機會提早來進行相關的一個太舊換新的工作。"},{"start":12266.136,"end":12292.771,"text":"除了這個之外,其實我覺得台灣也有很多啦。但我知道我們這幾年啊,花的錢已經非常非常的多了啦。不過如果跟日本,我們以東京來講啊,其實啊,我們花的錢啊,真的跟東京都來比起來,我們還是很少啦。那當然我也知道,這個財政規模不一樣。財政規模是不一樣的,我們也不能要求你們要比照東京都的水準。"},{"start":12293.451,"end":12308.764,"text":"不過這個真的是如果你報一次管報一次管你這個後續的這個成本反而增加很多這點我們應該可以考量所以我才會說像這種特別老舊的城市有特別老舊的管是不是可以幫個忙"},{"start":12309.685,"end":12321.415,"text":"是,我想我們積極地在爭取,現在也提報第2期的那個自來水的那個這個降落的改善計畫到行政,我們會積極來爭取更適當的機會來做後續的處理這樣子。好,好,那謝謝喔,謝謝,謝謝。謝謝張宏樂委員的質詢,緊接著請游浩委員質詢。"},{"start":12356.256,"end":12357.417,"text":"有請交通部次長"},{"start":12374.595,"end":12396.307,"text":"委員好市長好是那在今天的話雖然是相關預算的審查那解凍那我想說藉由這個機會那今天我也跟您要特別提一個今天我稍早的時候王宏威委員王維立委他也跟我一起有開一個記者會也是有關於重大的交通的公安議題"},{"start":12397.848,"end":12411.501,"text":"公安危機,之前高鐵有發生差點有6個人在裡面3次可能會受到電擊或成為烤肉串的事件嗎?"},{"start":12414.16,"end":12441.582,"text":"委員不好意思我也是今天早上才看到這一則新聞的事那對於這個高鐵公安事件他害人真相因為那一天的話是上午那其實他那時候停駛了5分鐘那高鐵表示是因為電力異常暫時停車那事實上他在高鐵的烏日基地他那時候在進行這開關的89FC41的規定作業在進行這個維護維修那裡面有6位"},{"start":12442.222,"end":12445.904,"text":"有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。"},{"start":12471.52,"end":12486.193,"text":"那想就教一下次長,針對像現在高鐵他現在是不受立院來監督,但是交通部對於這起事件要持什麼樣的態度跟來去怎麼樣的作為來去改善這個事件?"},{"start":12487.25,"end":12515.207,"text":"我想跟委員做一個報告,就是有關這個事件的一個發生,其實是臺高公司大概在4月19號也接收到相關的,這事件是在4月9號發生的。但是在4月19號有相關的檢舉案,所以臺高公司就進行了相關的徹查。那徹查之後呢,對於相關的人員是予延處,而且重申不得再犯。這是公司本身就公司治理安全上它所做的一個處理。"},{"start":12516.507,"end":12539.702,"text":"站在交通部鐵道局有關鐵道監理的立場,我們今天,其實不是在今天,其實在4月26號就已經發函請台高公司就這個事件說明。那我的了解,我們最近大概今天也會責令我們的鐵道局就這個來啟動相關的一個公安的檢查。"},{"start":12540.723,"end":12560.642,"text":"然後檢查完以後來依照檢查的結果來做相關的一個處理,謝謝。那我跟市長補充說明,那在4月9號那一天之後,其實高鐵公司他們在內部來講,他們是採取息事寧人的態度,所以說導致那個六位的人員,包括內部的一個檢舉人,"},{"start":12561.503,"end":12581.469,"text":"他們變成糾結在到底是要持續做這份工作嗎?還是因為那時候高鐵是叫他們說都對外不要再提這件事情。那他們是在生命權跟他們的一個工作權中他們要做選擇。如果說今天來講高鐵它本身它是螺絲鬆動嗎?那以及說在這樣子那麼重大的一個"},{"start":12582.169,"end":12582.269,"text":"主席"},{"start":12600.166,"end":12617.252,"text":"有跟委員報告這相關的事情發生之後我們鐵道局當然也就剛才特別提到的在4月16號請臺高公司來做進一步的說明那說明之後他們會去做相關的一個實地的一個檢查或是書面的調查"},{"start":12618.893,"end":12641.611,"text":"市長,我跟你講,不只這一件,包括在酒測的部分,高鐵的列車長在26號的時候有一個報導,他是規避酒測,那到時候高鐵的講法是,他有請負責監督的調派員,還來去給他實習酒測來去了解,但是事實上,這個部分也是採取歧視寧人的態度,因為到最後,"},{"start":12642.672,"end":12666.655,"text":"內部的員工也再次的跟網紅委員辦公室這邊我們今天開記者會也爆料因為到最後是這個監測員去幫這個那個列車長去進行酒測那所以說這等於就像是警察他在執勤的時候民眾喝酒了他就警察在幫他酒測一樣這個等於是這樣子的一個狀況那我想就教一下次長"},{"start":12667.896,"end":12689.675,"text":"高鐵它第一線其實在我們許多的服務商們看起來都做得很好可是在內部來講這樣的一個重大的公安危機是存在那麼高的風險甚至連列車長他如果是酒駕現在酒駕是零容忍的一個情況之下那就連去幫他調查幫他測的人他自己還可以幫他代為酒測那像這樣子的問題交通部都無法可管嗎?"},{"start":12691.67,"end":12712.669,"text":"我想這樣的一個事件來講是一個很嚴重的事件而且對於公安對行車安全來講影響甚巨所以說這部分剛才我也說明過了台高公司大概也做了一些懲處而且重申是不得再犯當然他也對於他相關的這個檢查的SOP也做進一步的一個檢討"},{"start":12713.53,"end":12729.282,"text":"那在這樣的一個情況下我們的鐵道局呢也會去就他的公司裡頭有關行車安全的這一事情來做全面的一個檢查來檢視他的相關的SOP是不是有符合規定如果有相關不足的地方會要求改善"},{"start":12729.662,"end":12755.467,"text":"好那本席還是要表示今天來講高鐵的螺絲鬆動某個程度交通部要嘛積極介入不然也代表了交通部也會有責任那這樣子的一個國內大家習慣的高鐵的運輸這是非常重要的一個交通安全所以請部長、次長這邊務必一定要針對振興做個徹查跟社會大眾回應謝謝是是我們會嚴正處理謝謝優化委員的質詢請接著我們請陳秀寶委員質詢"},{"start":12767.899,"end":12776.572,"text":"請陳副主計長、衛福部理事長、環境部省次長來,請陳副理事、環境部"},{"start":12783.919,"end":12809.304,"text":"國務委員好 早安 首先請教我們陳副主席長我們中央政府的前瞻基礎建設預算第4期特別的預算案總共是2098.3億元那從112年12月30日三讀到現在已經一年四個月請問現在已經執行多少金額 我們執行率如何我們的執行率是"},{"start":12812.295,"end":12819.821,"text":"目前第4期執行率按照國發會管考的資料是95.5%那這邊再請教我們陳副主席長,課委會在113年應該有分配到的金額是2.93億元,但是到3月底都沒有分配到這個金費,請問是什麼原因?"},{"start":12841.259,"end":12868.213,"text":"分配預算應該是各部會依據他的這個進度去進行分配就是說他因為我們的特別預算是他就這個計畫在這一期拿到一個總額然後這個各部會在按照他的執行進度去分配所以這個部分呢我們分配給他的是額度是在的但是是因為課額會本身按照進度是他們的他們是他們自己執行的問題喔"},{"start":12869.553,"end":12873.736,"text":"依據工程會112年底公共建設計畫預算的執行統計,列管整體經費812億元,執行經費782億元,執行率高達96.32%,成效很好的。但是要請教衛福部,4項計畫經費17億元,其中只執行10億元,執行率只有60.72%,請問是什麼原因?"},{"start":12899.433,"end":12916.72,"text":"我們在前瞻這邊大概執行率需要在努力的地方是有衛福據點還有地方創生這兩個案子那因為這兩個案子其實我們的合佩率都合佩大概有超過7成5以上可是都在地方在執行當中"},{"start":12917.8,"end":12941.248,"text":"我們為了要督促地方也能夠盡快來進行相關的一個工程所以我們都有聯繫會議還有輔導團下去就是希望能夠協助地方特別是在鄉鎮在執行這個部分能夠給予更多的一個協助所以在他地方的執行的部分你們也是有盡力的在協助提供他們就是盡快的把這個進度可以趕上來所以有在做這個部分好謝謝"},{"start":12942.648,"end":12952.519,"text":"但是這邊還是要請教一下113年度其實除了我們衛福之外環境部這邊的執行預算執行率只有24.83%是什麼原因?"},{"start":12955.405,"end":12955.706,"text":"跟委員報告"},{"start":12974.738,"end":12981.002,"text":"有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。"},{"start":12999.417,"end":12999.817,"text":"有請杜次"},{"start":13027.034,"end":13033.559,"text":"市長請教根據工程會第113年第一季的公共建設計畫執行的統計農業部這邊預算執行率只有6.85%是淨培莫挫請問市長是什麼原因"},{"start":13043.547,"end":13057.87,"text":"這個部分有些是因為工程發包上面有一些延後那這個部分我們跟不管是我們自己或是跟各個地方政府其實都有在追進度其中還有總苗高科技核心基地的這個創產計畫在113年度的經費應該是3.63億元第1屆執行目標應該要有18%但是執行率是0"},{"start":13068.624,"end":13069.564,"text":"中央政府預算凍結書面報告案4案。"},{"start":13088.328,"end":13088.648,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13109.562,"end":13109.682,"text":"經濟部林次長"},{"start":13133.226,"end":13154.645,"text":"請教您關於攸關民生的議題立法院在前天以59比50通過了國民黨團的凍漲電價案那對此呢經濟部你們是表示尊重國會但是無論經濟部或是台電都需要依法守法就是依照電業法遵守這個電價審議機制的結果那麼這邊要請教喔4月份的電價是不是照常會調漲"},{"start":13155.886,"end":13168.273,"text":"是,我們其實4月份的一個這個電價審議目前已經開始在執行這個調漲的工作。那未來如果說再有國際原料再有成本這個上漲的問題,台電這邊會先優先考慮動漲還是還是一樣依照這個電業法?"},{"start":13172.495,"end":13174.176,"text":"主席請再給我半分鐘我盡快的把這個議題講完"},{"start":13193.103,"end":13212.757,"text":"在同一天還有另外一個表決案,就是我們章濱工業區的這個金鼎焚化爐這個BOT案。那當時也是以58比48通過了民眾黨團的這個例子停止在章濱工業區興建金鼎焚化爐這個案子。那在這個決議之後呢,金鼎案後續會如何處理?經濟部這邊你們有什麼規劃?"},{"start":13214.318,"end":13232.414,"text":"我們的這個處理一定是依照這個契約的規範來進行。契約的規範裡面如果有違反這個契約規範,我們就按照相關的規定來處理這些事情。那是不是把你們之後會如何處理的這個你們所研議的結果一份報告給我辦公室可以嗎?可以。"},{"start":13232.674,"end":13234.215,"text":"主席好我想先請一下主席總處陳副主席長請"},{"start":13268.128,"end":13281.133,"text":"副局長因為今天在處理我們中央政府前瞻基礎建設第4期特別預算還有那個中央政府疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算那我在想說"},{"start":13282.553,"end":13307.35,"text":"因為今天要處理特別預算的時候我就先稍微整理了一下就是我們看到112年度我們要辦理政府辦理特別預算總共大概有五項包括中央政府新式戰機採購特別預算然後包括了那個特殊傳染性疾病就是我們COVID-19相關的第一次到第三次的預算還有原本特別預算"},{"start":13308.527,"end":13335.694,"text":"還有那個幼少年COVID-19之後的特別預算第4次的追加預算這大概都是之前的那還有一個海空戰力特別提升計畫的抬高特別預算那這都是我們中央政府在做的112年度涉及的5項預算之的其中3項那我要特別講的狀態就是說因為整個蔡政府這幾年下來的時候她處理的特別預算非常非常的多"},{"start":13336.774,"end":13352.863,"text":"我們認為對於整個財政機率已經有受到一些影響那對於這幾年來我們的整個舉債的金額大概已經要到我們以2022年整個全國GDP總額22.67兆幾乎佔了一成因為我們看到整個舉債數當中的時候是在2兆2586億"},{"start":13361.788,"end":13390.574,"text":"對於這樣的一個特別預算的運用,請問一下副主席長這邊有沒有什麼樣子的看法?我們要怎麼樣來調整會比較妥適?根據委員報告,就是說基本上我們特別預算一定是最近所提出來都是先有一個條例,那接著我們再來編列預算,所以基本上在這個條例的審查過程已經確定了有這個需求,所以我們來提列這個特別預算。那至於這個有關債務的部分,實際上"},{"start":13392.335,"end":13392.375,"text":"主席"},{"start":13410.254,"end":13410.354,"text":"陳志全議員"},{"start":13431.473,"end":13451.739,"text":"市長好,因為前瞻計畫第1期跟第2期特別預算已經分別超過預算執行期限4年到2年,那很多計畫也都還沒有執行完均。那第3期特別預算辦理的分支計畫當中,超過6成沒有在特別預算執行期限完成,其中包括我們新竹市的大車站計畫,"},{"start":13453.099,"end":13481.261,"text":"在第二期第三期都有特別預算編列計畫經費結果執行都是零那這邊的時候我們把整個前瞻計畫這邊的第一期第二期第三期當中的時候未完成的數量它持續的增加持續的增加那持續增加的原因的時候我覺得有一個很大的因素是在於地方政府也籌不出那麼多的錢我們看到去年七月中的"},{"start":13483.343,"end":13498.615,"text":"統計數字看到整個前瞻計畫的餅很大一旦看起來很充足可是暗藏了很多的問題按照前瞻計畫8000多億有七成都是軌道建設合併經費5486億元中央政府補助2203億元其他地方自籌款要高達3283億元"},{"start":13509.684,"end":13537.031,"text":"這麼多的一個部分地方自籌費用其實是沒有辦法去因應的所以我剛剛除了指出了新竹大車站計畫它的質詢率是零之外的時候還包括了台中捷運綠線那麼大台中地區山海線還有台南鐵路立體化的部分恆春觀光鐵道計畫的部分質詢率也都是零那這樣的一個情況你覺得主要因素是什麼"},{"start":13539.183,"end":13565.12,"text":"剛才委員特別提到的幾個計畫其實它目前都是在相關的一個要嘛是可行性的研究的階段它相關的議題還需要釐清所以讓它後續進行中規或者是建設的計畫的期程有所延誤那這些其實在這個前瞻裡頭也大概都是編列可行性的相關的經費那這一部分我們會盡量來協助地方政府"},{"start":13566,"end":13567.341,"text":"提出可行的方案"},{"start":13586.627,"end":13604.923,"text":"相關計畫非常龐大,然後地方政府負擔非常重。我稍微看了一下,在第1期到第3期的時候,地方政府自籌的經費大概已經編列出1514億,不過大概只佔到中央合定數的33%,大概三分之一左右,還不到。"},{"start":13605.883,"end":13620.054,"text":"地方政府財政非常捉襟見軸,在前瞻第1期至第3期分支計畫都還沒有完整,比例越來越高。請教次長,我們這邊有沒有辦法提高中央各項經費的負擔比例,來減輕地方自籌的壓力?"},{"start":13624.217,"end":13632.565,"text":"跟委員報告這個地方在經濟上的一個負擔這個我們是有看到但是每一個建設計畫裡頭他其實要分兩塊來看一個是有關這個自償的部分所以要是能夠計畫的自償越高那當然"},{"start":13639.651,"end":13668.466,"text":"相對大家在分擔的比例上就會那個減輕那另外一個其實各縣市政府他的這個也會依財力分級來做不同樣的一個負擔所以剛才委員講到三分之一是一個Normal平均值但是你可以看到到各縣市的計畫還是會依照他不同的財力有所處理市長因為主席站起來了我想針對新竹大車站計畫部分在跟本辦公室的時候做更詳細的一個說明是因為我們特別到目前為止他整個執行率全部都是零"},{"start":13668.786,"end":13674.311,"text":"好,是是,這一部分我們來看怎麼樣來跟委員做說明,謝謝。好,謝謝鄭正賢委員的諮詢,緊接著我們請羅廷偉委員諮詢。好,謝謝主席。麻煩主席衛福部李立芬次長。衛福部李次。"},{"start":13699.037,"end":13720.988,"text":"市長好我想台灣目前有幾個結構性的問題有迫切需要解決的一個必要當然其中一個最重要就是人口萎縮少子化以及台灣人越來越長壽但人口卻越來越減少導致現在人口正在結構正在快速的一個老化而人口萎縮所造成的效益這些相當明顯我們最近教育文化委員會在探討的許多學校"},{"start":13721.468,"end":13750.567,"text":"遭不到學生退場而大學生現在也開始面臨學生註冊人數下滑更具威脅性的是臺灣的勞動力預計在2065年減一半有860萬只剩下這樣子的人口那連人口數的一半都不到這絕對會削弱臺灣的經濟成長以及再者人口高度的老化能負擔老年人的退休金相關的體制健保體系也都會隨著年輕人越來越少開始"},{"start":13754.129,"end":13773.816,"text":"政府在前瞻怎麼去因應這個少子化?我們之前有看到這個所謂的育兒百寶箱,當然有被罵有去做改善,那我們當然是樂見。但是前瞻主要花了不少的經費在蓋這個硬體如公共托育的設施,目前這些公共托育設施完工幾處?幾處會完工?"},{"start":13777.168,"end":13777.668,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13800.166,"end":13800.486,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":13816.138,"end":13816.798,"text":"2021年新生兒數153,800"},{"start":13833.245,"end":13860.405,"text":"2022年新生數13.8萬2023年的新生額數是13.5萬次長在前瞻計畫下2024年你預估出生的新生額要多少?應該是逐漸往下啦看得出來這樣的趨勢啦但是我們要講的是新生額數的逐年下降代表的前瞻不一定有效果拼命增加疫情測試是不是能夠解決少子化的問題我們應該要反向的再來探討"},{"start":13861.265,"end":13885.541,"text":"雖然地方很猛的一直在爭取這些預算那我想每一個縣市首長都希望把它當成一個政績這也是一個趨勢我能夠理解但是作為我們主管機關也要因應未來我們不是只是說錢不夠再補錢我們繼續蓋我們是不是應該變相思考我們一直努力蓋但是還是一直往下是不是有問題所以我還是要講"},{"start":13886.827,"end":13901.8,"text":"這些硬體設施真的能夠讓我們解這個藍莓之急嗎?如果我們蓋了這個東西兩三年後完工還是我們直接生一個孩子給一百萬這件事情有總統候選人也開出相關的政見過我們是不是應該去做一個探討?"},{"start":13902.941,"end":13918.011,"text":"跟委員報告,其實我們看到其他國家的經驗,就是提供公共化的評價優質的這樣一個托育的服務確實是可以來提高。提高,但是目前看起來有限。我沒有說不對,但是我說是不是能夠兩者並軌進行,兩者一起探討。"},{"start":13921.954,"end":13922.014,"text":"當然啦!"},{"start":13950.714,"end":13965.603,"text":"這個還是不夠啦,我們一直希望能夠再增加育兒津貼相關的一些補貼啦,這會後我再繼續跟你爭取喔。但第二個,我要跟你坦白講,我的家人有失智症的一個前夫妻喔,我們也正在追蹤當中,所以我們很關注這一類的議題。"},{"start":13966.583,"end":13982.484,"text":"而失智症帶來所有家庭的一些相關因子因素我們都不再說了影響有多深你自己也都很清楚但是我原本要請你談失智症照顧的一個願景但是現在時間也不夠但是我要講的是日本去年將失智症列為國家級的應對目標"},{"start":13983.605,"end":13998.403,"text":"投資了將近200億日元,約14億台幣。當然我也要講,我們用在失智的預算編列2022年約50億左右。但是預算的配置狀況為何,前端的預防,以及花費的多少的比例,"},{"start":13999.003,"end":14017.689,"text":"還有後端的醫療照護花費的多少比例,這個其實我們還是希望能夠再去做相對應的一個檢討。失智症的輕中重度在分級管理衛福部的整合,我們覺得在這個部分還要再加強不同失智症的類型,我們該怎麼樣去照顧這個家庭的需求。"},{"start":14018.109,"end":14043.888,"text":"各地施治政還有社會資源的差異性都不同衛福部有沒有針對這樣子部分去做通盤檢討去做相對應的一個困境做調查我覺得這個部分希望衛福部能夠加強啊2009年開始施治政已納入安寧療護的一個健保警部但是我還是要問現在我們納入以後我們目前國內負責照顧施治的人力是否足夠你覺得夠嗎"},{"start":14046.498,"end":14046.878,"text":"我希望"},{"start":14074.915,"end":14085.361,"text":"看到實際的具體的一個方向讓我知道啦以國外相比我們的專業人力失智照顧的比例喔我是覺得目前沒有看到具體的更好的一個方向啦我希望這個部分要加強謝謝"},{"start":14100.218,"end":14124.825,"text":"謝謝主席。有請經濟部林次長。經濟部林次,請。委員好。次長,感謝我們行政院跟經濟部一直協助屏東縣政府在這個所謂的一個水資源的一個建設上面。我想屏東縣的水資源相當的豐沛。"},{"start":14125.365,"end":14125.946,"text":"大潮州人工湖第一期計畫"},{"start":14142.765,"end":14163.443,"text":"那所以在這兩年所謂發生這個全國大旱的時候其實也幫忙了我們南台灣做一個很好的一個調度那但是很遺憾目前我們提出的第二期的一個人工湖的計畫那預計每年可以預注1.5億噸的水來補充我們所謂的一個地下水層那我想這個"},{"start":14164.764,"end":14164.884,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":14185.745,"end":14211.077,"text":"水資源作業基金審議會審查有條件通過那要請屏東縣政府做一些強化那之後我們會報行政院來做審議市長我想本席還是要再提醒因為這個案子已經拖了很久那當然這個不是純粹只是為了屏東縣的用水而是整個南台灣的一個水資源一個調度的計畫讓我們也期待經濟部甚至行政院趕快來核定"},{"start":14211.917,"end":14239.573,"text":"那其實在這個大潮州人工五還沒有建立之前之前就有發生過所謂屏東跟高雄對於這個水資源的一個源頭的一個爭搶的一個問題那甚至因為這個供應到高雄端造成農民的這個深水井抽不到水那請教經濟部針對我們這個水資源的分配有沒有一個比較好的一個協調機制不要造成這個百姓的這個紛爭這個年年上演"},{"start":14241.474,"end":14261.943,"text":"是。我想謝謝委員。我想這個部分我們經濟部水利署這邊也積極建立相關的一個這個溝通的一個還有這個協調的平台。那目前已經有明定這兩個這個我們縣市就這相關的一個這個水權的一個運用有一個建立一個明確的機制,會依這個機制來進行相關的一個應用。"},{"start":14265.778,"end":14282.267,"text":"市長我想本席還是要再提醒因為這個屏東縣因為這個本身以往都是用使用地下水那但是因為地下水必須也要有一定的這個益處那所以高雄因為對於高雄市來講他們的本身的水源不夠"},{"start":14282.967,"end":14311.241,"text":"所以屏東是一個很重要的一個供水的一個地區那這個供水的過程裡面包含現在我們在整幾個鄉鎮有挖了所謂的一個大管的一個供水的系統也造成一些交通的不便甚至影響造成百姓擔心這個以後後續水源的問題那這部分我想我們必須要跟自流水公司好好的討論一下怎麼樣來做一個水源的一個調度不要變成水到了高雄之後屏東沒有水可用"},{"start":14312.001,"end":14322.257,"text":"這部分次長這邊能不能說明一下。好,我想委員剛剛提醒的部分我會請我們水利署以及自來水公司這邊依照委員剛剛所提醒的地方來做更適當的一個這個協調處理。"},{"start":14325.023,"end":14349.614,"text":"另外最後一個問題我想還是要請教這個次長。我想這個自來水這個是我們這個現在目前國人都繼續需要的一個水源。那本席講一個很辛酸的一個問題。根據我們調閱的資料,其實我們現在幾乎每個縣市的普及率都已經到9成。那唯獨屏東到上個月才出破7成。"},{"start":14350.154,"end":14370.684,"text":"那我想當然這個水利署也好或是自來水公司我們都一直要求要增加普及率但是因為我們的幅員遼闊那因為地形的關係也有很多的偏鄉那這部分水利署還有我們的經濟部怎麼樣來增強我們增加我們屏東的這個普及率的一個計畫"},{"start":14372.604,"end":14382.733,"text":"謝謝委員。我想屏東自來水的普及,我們這幾年來加速的在執行。上個月我剛好也到屏東區跟我們屏東縣州縣長一起來啟動我們現在突破七成這樣的一個慶祝活動。"},{"start":14387.498,"end":14404.583,"text":"現場也有提到相關希望我們能夠加速來提高屏東的自來水的一個補給率我已經請我們自來水公司李董事長好好地評估我們怎麼加速相關的工程的一個這個處理因為這個必須要有一個適當的工程能量能夠進來才能加速來進行"},{"start":14405.943,"end":14427.858,"text":"另外就是我還是要提醒一下經濟部這邊除了這個自來水普及之外其實這個我們自來水公司這個水管老舊不洗老水的問題那加上我們的維修量能不足造成我們包含恆春地區一些偏遠地區老水老幾禮拜都沒人來修理這個問題我們都有反應過了是不是請水公司跟經濟部這邊也加強要求我們這個維護的一個品質防漏的問題好我們一定會加強要求謝謝"},{"start":14434.724,"end":14437.247,"text":"好,謝謝徐務國委員的諮詢。請接著我們請黃秀芳委員諮詢。謝謝主席。我們先請經濟部次長。有請您次。"},{"start":14454.551,"end":14479.371,"text":"委員好市長好市長我先就我們剛剛許委員所講的無自來水地區的這個部分因為每一年都所有無自來水地區的都要經過評比嘛那很多時候都是因為你們經費不足所以我是不是可以要求就是針對這些無自來水地區的這個他們只要有申請那"},{"start":14480.151,"end":14480.431,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":14494.497,"end":14509.403,"text":"好,謝謝,我想我們水利署也透過很多很多管道在爭取,我們會來把經費的那個爭取列為第一要務,讓這樣的工作能夠做更到位。是,就是無自來水,或者是這個接管率很低的地方,我覺得應該"},{"start":14511.063,"end":14536.085,"text":"應該能夠讓所有的民眾我覺得這個是民生必須的這個是最基本的基礎建設所以我希望就是說未來經濟部這邊應該在預算上面應該要再多增加一點讓需要的人就申請不要說再經過評比我覺得經過評比這個一評比之後可能就是又被打回票有的一申請經過了四五年也都沒有通過我們來努力"},{"start":14536.966,"end":14541.546,"text":"我們來努力。好,請回。接下來請交通部陳次長。"},{"start":14548.889,"end":14567.411,"text":"市長好市長我在今年2月份的時候在這個總質詢的時候有詢問我們陳院長有關彰化的鐵路高架還有台中捷運綠線延伸到彰化那當時我有請這個院長還有我們的這個部長交通部長"},{"start":14568.913,"end":14591.132,"text":"針對我們這兩件最重大的交通建設是不是可以在每三個月讓我們知道整個進度如何那這個彰化的鐵路高架到現在從開始計畫到現在現在目前是在進入綜合規劃那綜合規劃我看到這個一直停滯不前"},{"start":14593.305,"end":14613.098,"text":"已經經過好幾年,從我當議員,然後當立委,立委已經第三屆了,那還是在這邊打轉。我是不是可以請教到底是什麼樣的原因,或者是未來我們交通部這邊要怎麼去協助地方政府來中央跟地方一起合作,趕快促成我們彰化鐵路高架。"},{"start":14613.698,"end":14641.325,"text":"是,我想跟委員做一個說明,剛才委員有特別提到說每3個月給委員相關的進度這部分我想我們鐵道局可以來配合辦理,這不是問題。那另外特別提到這個有關造化式鐵路高架的這個問題,其實真正的問題還是機場的位置那個區位的問題要在哪裡,這一部分就基地的位置跟軌道數目前還沒有達成共識。"},{"start":14642.205,"end":14662.657,"text":"那這一部分呢,我們鐵道局會在明天,會邀集相關單位,包含台鐵、彰化縣政府,大家共同來討論,希望盡快有一個結果,然後讓這個綜合規劃可以順利的往下走。好,當然就是說,地方會有地方的考量,地方政府會有一些考量,也許就是說,我們這個檢修廠的"},{"start":14665.339,"end":14666.399,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":14687.808,"end":14689.389,"text":"這部分確實有它一定的難度。"},{"start":14714.489,"end":14734.251,"text":"我們交通部相關單位,包含台鐵公司,因為影響它以後的調度跟營運,它也提供了一些相關的看法。明天我特別提到說,鐵道局會邀請這些相關的單位,大家共同來討論,看是不是能夠如委員講的,是不是有一個方向,繼續往下走。"},{"start":14734.931,"end":14736.113,"text":"台中捷運綠線延伸到彰化"},{"start":14749.605,"end":14749.725,"text":"主席"},{"start":14764.665,"end":14792.675,"text":"那也都一直都沒有什麼進展那我也在這邊也要求就是說交通部跟地方政府應該是要同心協力趕快將這個台中捷運綠線延伸到彰化當然這個不只延伸到彰化另外一段是延伸到台中的大坑所以我希望就是說交通部這邊應該是要跟地方政府充分的合作那地方的需求或者是需要排除的問題也希望交通部這邊來協助"},{"start":14795.829,"end":14817.251,"text":"委員報告,委員剛剛也特別提到,有關那個應該是捷運綠線,台中的捷運綠線的延伸,不管是往這個往北或往南,往南就是到委員的這個帳劃地區,那這部分他所遇到的問題,大概在這個這一段期間,大家也都釐清的有一定的瞭解,那這部分的我想也是一樣,我們會請鐵道局跟地方政府,"},{"start":14817.611,"end":14823.133,"text":"我希望就是說中央跟地方一起合作將這個地方引頸期盼的重大建設能夠儘速來進行而不是一拖拖了一二十年還是在原地打轉"},{"start":14845.481,"end":14849.102,"text":"謝謝黃修芳委員的諮詢。我們最後請郭育淺委員諮詢。謝謝主席。有請教育部。有請教育部留持。"},{"start":14873.306,"end":14893.307,"text":"我想其實我們知道前瞻計畫的項目很多那最重要的其實跟教育部有關的我覺得在我們一些體育的賽事的場合那也都有這樣子的一個投資跟我們一個整個所有設施跟一個目標希望就是在這些場合當中我們可以看到更國際化的一個狀況"},{"start":14894.988,"end":14908.773,"text":"我今天就桃園樂天棒球場優化改善的一個工程來提出一些我個人的一些問題了。我想在整個所有的教育部你們在等於說在"},{"start":14910.214,"end":14931.757,"text":"合法或者是在整個所有的監管的一個過程當中然後跟地方政府的權責的部分到底是怎麼樣去分就是我們教育部難道是這個優化的一個經費撥下去之後然後最後其實就交給地方政府他們給你們什麼然後你們就照單全收還是說其實我們在管理跟查核的他們的工程的進度的部分"},{"start":14932.277,"end":14954.361,"text":"是有一些些落差,包含其實我們就是體育署這邊回應給我們的部分,就是說只有在15%到80%這個部分我們辦理工程的品質的一個查核。那我想問的是,81%之後呢,難道就直接到最後的決算、決案、結案,然後我們的教育部才知道嗎?"},{"start":14955.658,"end":14984.678,"text":"公務員報告他基本上是說在那個在我們大概在實際工程進度58%的時候那時候有做一次工程品質查核那次工程品質查核查分數是81分但是也有40項缺失事項讓他們改善那在這之後並不是直接因為他基本上他竣工他3月29號申報竣工之後還是有經過中子聯盟場看跟驗收然後測試賽"},{"start":14985.739,"end":14986.239,"text":"我們大概是依照這樣一個過程,"},{"start":14990.805,"end":15016.178,"text":"因為我收到的這份報告這個也蠻奇妙的因為這個報告應該是在3月中就是整理過後然後4月整理然後我們拿到的這份這個報告但是這個報告應該是3月份的部分你們的一些報告的內容但是報告上面直接就寫了已完工這個部分是不是在時間點有一個很大的一個落差"},{"start":15018.188,"end":15021.772,"text":"關於您剛有特別提到就是在缺點跟優點的部分其實我們有做了一個"},{"start":15037.261,"end":15038.221,"text":"有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案。"},{"start":15061.309,"end":15061.969,"text":"公文報告這比較細的我們能不能請體育署來回答?好來請"},{"start":15084.771,"end":15104.644,"text":"跟委員報告,那個3月以後去進行工程查核的時候,的確委員針對這個部分有提出39項加1項,總共40項的缺失,要市政府這邊來做一個改善。裡面大部分的,它缺失比較多的項目,應該就是這些書圖、表件,它資料呈現的比較不齊全。"},{"start":15106.185,"end":15125.685,"text":"另外,限地看起來的話,應該是外野的地平這部分也有一些缺失,還有一些漏水的部分要做一個改善。所以比較看起來比較嚴重的,比較嚴重應該還是限地這個地平的改善。不過因為我們相關的一個工程查核完了之後,會把查核的意見給市政府。"},{"start":15127.006,"end":15151.537,"text":"市政府針對這些缺失要逐項逐項的回復改善的一個情況。市政府這邊也在上個禮拜有把相關的一個缺失改善的情形有報到體育署。署裡面這邊也有先請委員這邊先整個先進行那個那個核對。目前看起來是之前的一些缺失的一個情況,他們是已經有完成改善了。"},{"start":15152.097,"end":15165.493,"text":"所以我們大概在近期的時候會正式核備它改善的一個情況。所以改善的情況的一些最新的資訊目前還在整理當中嗎?對。因為這個地方我們看到它的缺點有39項,它的優點32項,但是總缺點的扣計的點數是0。"},{"start":15171.431,"end":15188.303,"text":"因為這個案子後來是沒有被扣分,作為工程查核來講的話是還OK的,然後查核是加等。好,那我想這個部分就是關於查核,實地的查核。這部分我們會來監督,持續來監督。其實我們真的不是只有前面的15%到80%,其實有100%。"},{"start":15192.506,"end":15192.726,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":15217.254,"end":15222.063,"text":"謝謝郭育群委員的質詢,我們今天上午的會議就到這邊結束,下午一點半繼續開會,休息。"},{"start":17947.782,"end":17964.227,"text":"好我們繼續開會請大家肅靜按鈴好我們繼續開會請大家就位肅靜接著我們請鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員鄭天才委員不在接著我們請武力法委員質詢"},{"start":17975.776,"end":17985.562,"text":"謝謝主席。有請經管會、財政部、園民會、農業部。沒有經管會。也沒有財政部。園民會。還有內政部。"},{"start":18006.854,"end":18034.761,"text":"好我在這個會期起初3月4號跟3月7號那分別呢有質詢過經管會跟財政部有關原保地貸款的這個議題那為什麼關心這個問題因為這是原住民多年來的一個訴求跟陳情因為在我們的原保地來講"},{"start":18036.442,"end":18036.502,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":18046.687,"end":18069.072,"text":"那麼如果以價錢來看的話,一般林地呢,他們是採取市場的建價,那原保地都有所謂的公告限值,那到底可以帶多少呢?一樣的面積,可能一般林地是400萬,那原保地呢,就是估起來大概是160。那為什麼會這樣?所有的銀行都會告訴我們一件事,"},{"start":18069.992,"end":18089.197,"text":"因為依據《三保條例》第37條第二項,它有提到這個移轉以原住民為限,所以讓大家都覺得這個因為有受到限制,流通性不佳,所以承待的意願就不高。"},{"start":18090.217,"end":18114.171,"text":"那麼這個部分就是沒有這個貸款意願也就罷了他們也提到原保地的建架很困難那或許可以作為一個理由啦所以呢我在財政部的一個質詢有拿到他的回覆報告了他是這麼建議的他說建架系統建議原民會是需要洽詢內政部協處"},{"start":18119.034,"end":18130.719,"text":"原住民保留地市價偏低,建架系統不全,所以要問內政部,這樣的問題您覺得是內政部還是原民會?"},{"start":18133.832,"end":18162.896,"text":"委員當然如果是不動產估價的部分當然還是內政部我們還是有一定的責任那我會建議這個問題有點類似像幾年前我們講地上權的估價其實也是建價困難等等等等那當然因為逐步的有實價登錄之後會比較多資訊那我會建議我想這部分到時候請原民會我們跟我們內政部地政司我們討論一下是不是請估價施工會先針對原保地的部分來研究一套"},{"start":18163.536,"end":18164.536,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":18187.884,"end":18201.284,"text":"根據原民會的組織法,確實沒有辦理地價業務的單位,也確實沒有被授權要辦理地價的業務,所以這個部分當然也就沒有處理地價的這種組織跟人力。"},{"start":18203.627,"end":18206.369,"text":"內政部組織法第2條確實有地價與不動產交易業務職責,內政部也有地政司的地價科。"},{"start":18225.66,"end":18237.983,"text":"而且,講更多一點,跟地價相關的法令,像未來會涉及土地法、平均地權條例、不動產估價計數、地價調查估計、還有地價與標準地價評議委員會的作業規範、地價的基準,還有選定。"},{"start":18245.405,"end":18268.941,"text":"這些要點等等都是屬於內政部長管的法令,所以本席才會在這個地方要求是不是原保地地價的研究,那麼之後依法令調整原保地地價能夠歸屬內政部,那也希望內政部本於職權來協助原民會。那剛才次長您的答覆已經很好了,您再簡單講一次。"},{"start":18270.242,"end":18285.467,"text":"好,我們就當然這應該是內政部的職責沒有問題啦但當然並不是說依法令調整原保地地價我可能文字上面是不是容許我們跟原民會來合作那我們來建立一個原保地估價的這個體系"},{"start":18287.829,"end":18288.529,"text":"原住民在自己的土地當別人的故宮"},{"start":18302.142,"end":18329.524,"text":"原保地能夠到銀行被承擔做擔保品這件事情會改變原住民的整個財政體質所以我在這個地方非常的感謝那最後我還要感謝因為我在4月10號有開一個原保地的研商會議那特別有請到農業部農業金庫也有來他們是給我正面的答覆喔他們是很願意來去做這個原保地的一個專門的一個"},{"start":18331.525,"end":18331.565,"text":"主席"},{"start":18353.046,"end":18364.654,"text":"謝謝吳立法委員的質詢。緊接著我們請廖偉祥委員質詢。廖偉祥、廖偉祥、廖偉祥不在。接著我們請嚴寬恒委員質詢。嚴寬恒、嚴寬恒、嚴寬恒不在。接著我們請李坤澤委員質詢。謝謝郭國文、趙偉。麻煩一下陳彥博次長,還有鐵道局溫護局長。來,請陳次、請局長。"},{"start":18384.102,"end":18384.326,"text":"委員好"},{"start":18386.078,"end":18413.599,"text":"市長好,針對高雄的大眾運輸我們希望在這幾年讓它逐漸成型最主要的原因就是在於交通部統計2022年公共運輸的市佔率我們可以看到台北市是37.2新北市是28.7然後高雄市只有8.4那公共運輸的市佔率會如此低落"},{"start":18414.74,"end":18440.979,"text":"雖然在過去這幾年一直的努力不管是原本的紅線跟橘線的通車以及台鐵捷運化新增7個通勤車站捷運化的這條路線加上輕軌臨港線早已完工那大順路這一段也順利的完工成員對於提升大眾運輸這個民眾很有感那高雄市民也一再的要求輕軌"},{"start":18442.04,"end":18442.08,"text":"主席"},{"start":18459.714,"end":18481.412,"text":"以及高雄捷運小港寧元縣的修正計畫案。或者是高雄都會區大眾捷運系統岡山路組的延伸線。這些都有相關的修正的計畫在進行當中。那請教一下溫代局長、溫夫局長相關的計畫的進度如何?"},{"start":18482.999,"end":18497.236,"text":"跟委員報告,剛剛提到的這個黃縣跟小港陵園縣都在4月1號的時候市府就提報修正計畫來,4月11號的時候交通部也交下鐵道局在審查,那我們目前在很快的在積極審查當中這兩案。"},{"start":18499.335,"end":18522.798,"text":"好,這一些都是關係到大高雄地區相關的大眾運輸系統是否能夠初步的成型。初步的成型對於運輸的人口、運輸的市佔率會幫助非常大。除了目前的這一些新的捷運的修正計畫在進行當中,新的紙線也在6月中"},{"start":18523.539,"end":18537.221,"text":"可行性評估就會出來,讓我們會繼續的相關的計畫跟預算必須要逐步的落實,希望能夠讓高雄的大眾運輸系統逐漸的成型與發展。"},{"start":18538.547,"end":18555.243,"text":"另外就是有關於氣象局、氣象署。氣象署我們對於地震的這些預報,這個在2011年因為日本福島地震,所以在2012年我就要求"},{"start":18555.883,"end":18556.643,"text":"第1次聯席會議第1次聯席會議第2次聯席會議"},{"start":18581.394,"end":18586.632,"text":"比較危險性比較大的地震有7成都是在東部的外海"},{"start":18587.915,"end":18616.903,"text":"所以當初我們有設置一個媽祖計畫這兩天是媽祖生那這個計畫就叫做媽祖結尾啦媽祖結尾就是在海底埋電纜從東北角一直往南延伸經過恆春然後到仿山的中華電信所來上岸這是123期相關的一個進度那現在更重要的"},{"start":18618.049,"end":18640.798,"text":"我們在推動往南延伸的這樣的一個海底電纜的計畫這個計畫原本是預計800公里但是就是因為相關的這些進度相關的這些預算因為缺工缺料以及相關流標的這些過程現在氣象署已經將800公里縮減到只有200公里那"},{"start":18645.937,"end":18669.657,"text":"這陣期間大家談到地震大家民心非常的擔憂相關地震的對於人民生命財產所造成的這樣的一個衝擊國家級警報是擔負起預警的一個重要的工作那我們現在往南延伸的這個部分相關的預算跟進度這個次長你清楚嗎"},{"start":18673.55,"end":18694.488,"text":"這一點我們會再跟交通部以及氣象署來進行相關的這樣的一個持續的推動那相關的有關於捷運相關的修正計畫最主要還是在於經費的這樣的一個補助我們來看捷運黃線的修正草案要加上964億"},{"start":18697.571,"end":18704.134,"text":"小港寧元縣修正計畫案增加32億元以上,岡山路竹延伸線提升至89億元以上。"},{"start":18711.259,"end":18730.081,"text":"這些相關的經費我們希望能夠趕快的能夠落實讓這些大眾運輸系統關係到高雄未來的一個整體發展大眾運輸路線是要配合一個都市的發展提升它的相關的大眾運輸的功能"},{"start":18730.862,"end":18747.416,"text":"除了促進生活的方便、交通的便捷、產業的發展,都是有很重要的一個提升的作用。也請次長跟鐵道局、文務局長針對可行性評估之中的指線,我們來加以關注。希望,"},{"start":18748.376,"end":18774.665,"text":"這樣才能夠讓初步的高雄大眾捷運的路網能夠初步的一個成型,這個還是要繼續的努力。是,我跟委員補充報告,有關剛才提到的岡山路竹段的那個競配的修正,行政院已經核定了,那跟委員說一下。第一步的修正已經核定,那還是有一些追加的部分,我們會持續的再跟交通部來進行對話,希望能夠"},{"start":18776.065,"end":18789.455,"text":"早日給予高雄協助,讓大眾運輸系統能夠逐步成型。以上。好,謝謝交通委員會資深委員李坤哲委員的諮詢。請接著我們請李坤誠委員諮詢。謝謝主席。我們請交通部城市長。來,有請城市。"},{"start":18807.783,"end":18825.263,"text":"委員好市長好我今天上午也聽了很多委員都在詢問這個有關於我們前瞻預算地下停車場的經費的問題那這個該地下停車場不是只有我新北市或是三重我相信這個全台灣的這一個立委都希望能爭取這個地下停車場"},{"start":18826.044,"end":18834.857,"text":"但是我也問過這個我們公路局公路局說我們的前瞻停車場的這個計畫是8年是到明年嘛對不對但是呢我們的計畫呢本來是200億後來追加了60億260億260億已經用完了是不是"},{"start":18841.827,"end":18865.659,"text":"261我們都也分配完了就表示大家有這個需求嘛對不對那需求那可是你的計畫是到明年啊那你2月就沒有錢了接下來我們也報了很多計畫上去我自己三重也報了包含這一個有開源公園啊六張公園啊大同公園等等那難道沒有錢了那計畫還是到計畫是到明年才結束那沒有錢就不做了嗎還是說繼續再爭取預算那繼續再做"},{"start":18870.011,"end":18885.19,"text":"跟委員報告一下有關這個前瞻之所以停車前瞻預算有把停車場納進去就是認為說這樣的一個停車的有需求對對解決都市交通問題很有幫助對我們都支持所以才從200億也增加到260億"},{"start":18886.732,"end":18888.414,"text":"市長,早上提醒一下,研議是說再去追加預算,再把它補進去還是怎麼樣?"},{"start":18905.951,"end":18920.636,"text":"這個部分因為畢竟這個是前瞻計畫結束了預算當然結束那後續呢是計畫是到明年啊對明年明年結束完以後我意思是說這明年才結束那預算現在就沒有了那所以呢"},{"start":18922.377,"end":18947.177,"text":"我們目前來講會先從既有的這個計畫裡頭看相關的這個經費大家各因為各指向的計畫大家執行的情形進度不一啦看是不是可以有一些滾動上的一個檢討能不能再爭取預算再來蓋地下停車場我相信是很多立法委員的需求啊我剛才就講說相關的預算是不是還可以這一部分我們會去研議看看"},{"start":18948.437,"end":18967.006,"text":"那研議是要怎麼做啊?我早上就聽你跟很多立委講說研議,我就想說好那研議是要怎麼研議勒?去哪裡找錢勒?研議很重要就是找錢嘛,那找錢要從哪裡找怎麼找,這就是研議之所在。那你就是跟我繞了一圈了。"},{"start":18968.656,"end":18992.532,"text":"對,所以我很具體跟你講,就是要去研議,要去想辦法討論。不是啦,我的意思是說你這樣子,你不要是糊弄我啊。沒有,沒有,我跟委員沒有糊弄,沒有糊弄。那我問你,停車場要不要繼續做?原則上,各地方政府做停車場,這我們都很樂見,是。那當然啦,地方像我新北市政府就有停款基金嘛,那如果沒有這個中央前瞻預算撥下去的話,沒有辦法做到那麼多啦。"},{"start":18993.988,"end":19001.817,"text":"所以有些地方如果停管基金可以的話還有急迫性他可以先去做這沒有問題那我就不用來問你了所以我問你就是說現在預算不夠了是不是要再來找預算來繼續再來做停車場嗎是不是有這個方向"},{"start":19010.891,"end":19038.418,"text":"這樣就是我剛才講的,我們朝這個方向來…來,跟新的院長再來爭取這個預算好不好?這個我們會在交通部相關的這個內部會去討論,必要時我們會跟新的院長…有必要啊,我看今天這麼多委員都有問到這個地下停車場啊,有這個需求啊,只是我早上聽到說你在演繹,我想說到底是早上也是演繹,下午也是演繹,那有沒有新的東西出來啊?不好意思,我還是要演繹啦,還是要演繹,是,謝謝。"},{"start":19040.188,"end":19040.328,"text":"主席"},{"start":19059.344,"end":19075.873,"text":"市長,我們在去年4月就有提出來凍保法的修正案,已經過了一年了,去年4月到現在預告凍保法的修正案,這個預告要預告一年這麼久嗎?到現在還提不出來嗎?"},{"start":19077.553,"end":19097.998,"text":"謝謝委員關心,因為其實動物保護真的是大家都很期待。這個過去年大家就希望說動物保護要修法,那你們馬上也開了很多的這個會議說這個來討論,然後我們農委會也升個這個農業部了,然後還多了這個動物保護師,那結果,那我現在問你這個動保法最新的修法進度,這個會期會不會提出來?"},{"start":19099.532,"end":19123.817,"text":"應該這樣還是會提出來,但是不會是整個像我們當初預告的,因為當中有很多利害關係人跟我們說有些部分還要再研議,所以我們會分成兩塊,有共識的先走,那需要再檢討就再檢討,因為還是要往前走。是啊,那我的意思是說這個會期能不能提出來,因為你們是大休嘛,你們本來是大休嘛,那現在會不會再提出來?還是會提出來,但是就有共識。預計哪時候會提出來?"},{"start":19124.777,"end":19143.881,"text":"有共識的部分會先提。對,那我說這個會期會不會提出來啦?我們希望可以,因為這個事情真的已經拖了一年了。有,那這當中其實也很多利害關鍵,其實我們都一直在討論。我知道啦,我的意思是說齁,這個還是要往前走嘛,這已經拖了一年的時間,那我希望這個會期能夠提出來好不好?"},{"start":19144.121,"end":19144.581,"text":"主席我們再請內政部"},{"start":19176.145,"end":19197.022,"text":"請花斥花斥這做得比較久,給我30秒就好了,你做得比較遠。請教一下,在這個三重有一個迎新未來城,那這個迎新未來城,我想請問一下次長,那到底是說現在是卡在哪裡?是卡在這個新北市政府提出的計畫你們不滿意,比如他要當這個做長照,"},{"start":19198.883,"end":19200.064,"text":"中央政府預算凍結書面報告案4案。"},{"start":19226.687,"end":19230.229,"text":"其實新北市是用新加坡的案例在copy,而新加坡是用原有的商業區和住宅區在做。"},{"start":19243.178,"end":19270.673,"text":"那現在是用公共設施用地在做的時候,它裡面的商業機能和內涵還是這麼高,其實可能就不是很恰當。也就是說,三重還有很多缺乏的公共用途的空間,應該要先考慮補足,可能會比較重要,會比商業開發來得更重要。因為它當然有它,因為它是BOT,所以它一定有一些商業的部分善。其實不一定要BOT啊。不一定要BOT。是啊。那經費不足的部分怎麼辦?它就是經費不夠啊。"},{"start":19272.234,"end":19299.697,"text":"地方政府也沒有這麼多經費啊?其實有不同的補助,衛福部有衛福部的補助,內政部有內政部社宅的補助,其實本來就...那你們有跟新北市政府講說不一定要BOT的方式來做嗎?不是,我們...因為他們這樣子的一個計畫並沒有得到衛福部肯認說它是屬於社福的功能。好,那所以現在問題是卡在衛福部還是卡在內政部?都沒有卡,是卡在新北市政府的計畫不好。計畫不好?那所以他們,你會叫他們再重修啊?"},{"start":19300.308,"end":19322.044,"text":"當然都跟他們提示過,我也跟侯市長都跟他說過了。請花式私底下再跟李偉說。那你再請人家來跟我說明好了,好不好?因為這個案子,地方已經閒置兩、三年了啦。是,因為計畫不好啦,所以說請還是回去跟市府講一點。計畫不好你跟我講,回去跟他們做檢討好不好?請這個看是哪個單位?國土管理署嗎?還是?"},{"start":19326.144,"end":19326.565,"text":"請交通部陳次長。"},{"start":19358.962,"end":19375.302,"text":"市長午安。我想首先我要在這邊說的就是對於曾經歷經這個前瞻特別條例跟前瞻特別預算審查的委員來說,今天在這邊應該感觸非常的深,因為就是在同樣一個會議室,"},{"start":19377.864,"end":19388.509,"text":"想當年在審查這個條例跟特別預算的時候我們遭受到很大的一個阻擾雖然在那個時候這樣子的面臨的這個丟水球丟麵粉這樣子的將紛亂的分斷的一個狀況之下我們讓這個前瞻特別預算終於通過了那時間真的過得很快一轉眼這明年就到期了114年就到期了"},{"start":19404.096,"end":19425.989,"text":"那在這8年為期8年這個前瞻特別預算在這幾年執行下來相信很多地方這個成績也都一一的浮現了都有具體的一個成效了我想這個也都讓國人都感觸非常的深也看在眼裡那在這邊我首先也要來講的就是關心的就是停車場停車場的問題那我們知道在前瞻特別預算裡面我們總共有編列了260億"},{"start":19433.633,"end":19435.894,"text":"市長,目前進度如何?現在完工有四件,規劃中的還有一件規劃中的是哪一件?"},{"start":19460.736,"end":19469.602,"text":"規劃中的是藍郭立體停車場在我的選區就是山河公園的地下停車場據我所知是還沒有辦落成完工的典禮目前完工了可是還沒有完工典禮還沒有正式的啟用"},{"start":19488.656,"end":19509.69,"text":"其實這個停車場對於都市化的地區真的是非常的重要。我們也知道最近幾年很多對於交通安全的改善跟提升也是受到國人很大的期待跟關注,尤其就是要改善行人地域這樣子的一個交通的亂"},{"start":19512.072,"end":19538.882,"text":"其實我們知道交通的亂象都是息息相關的所以你看歷經去年的檢舉達人檢舉的一個狀況事實上也是因為我們很多的公共設施不足所以在這種狀況之下你導致很多民眾他要在停車的時候他的需求就是不足所以就是說在這種狀況之下要去取締這個違規真的也是造成很多的一個民怨"},{"start":19539.642,"end":19562.436,"text":"所以我在這邊要講的就是說很多當然我們剛剛那個李委員有提到其實很多委員都期待就是說未來對於地方的這個停車場的一個需求還是有這樣子的很大的一個需求所以我們未來希望就是說在這個部分交通部還是要去努力的爭取啦因為我想當然這個前瞻特別預算"},{"start":19563.096,"end":19563.277,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19581.037,"end":19604.529,"text":"是,這一部分我今天早上也對幾個委員大概也說過,我們也了解到停車問題的一個解決對很多縣市政府來講都非常的重要,所以這一部分有關前瞻的這個停車場的預算結束之後呢,後續相關的一個經費的預算的來源,這我們會認真的去研議,看用什麼方式來提供這樣的一個預算計畫,讓縣市政府能夠繼續來申請。"},{"start":19606.786,"end":19634.066,"text":"好謝謝那其實這幾年就是說因為有特別預算就是前瞻特別預算讓我們地方很多的大型的公共建設可以來推動了包括這個提升道路品質因為這個部分也讓我們整個地方的這個道路品質都可以提升所以我覺得在這些的一個政績方面我們也希望交通部要多多的做了宣傳讓人民可以有更具體的一個感受"},{"start":19634.907,"end":19654.746,"text":"那再來我要講的就是有關這個TPAS的月票使用的情形這個是我們就是後來的疫後潤性經濟這個特別預算的部分那在這個部分目前就我所知就是說目前使用的人數都是在60多萬人是不是?次長"},{"start":19656.026,"end":19673.535,"text":"平均加值是六十幾萬人次在加值每個月意思就是說一個月到了會有再繼續有六十幾萬人所以平均應該就是全國每個月大概都是六十多萬的人次人數在使用"},{"start":19674.335,"end":19703.314,"text":"所以看起來就是北部就是北台灣及北北桃的使用率比較高對於其他縣市應該使用率比較低在中南部來說原則上當然會有一些程度上的不同但是整體而言TPAS下去以後對整體的使用的運量大概是增加到15.8所以應該是有一定的一個成長那在不同的運距別之間它的成長更是不一樣"},{"start":19704.595,"end":19707.118,"text":"整體使用人次目前停留在60多萬,交通部有沒有考慮提升使用人次?"},{"start":19725.036,"end":19746.068,"text":"我想這一部分我們會在應該是下一期啦,其實明年開始我們會去有一些交通平權,其實平權就是剛才講的對於其他的縣市政府,不是北北季以外的縣市政府,如何提升他的TPAS或公共運輸的使用率的這樣的一個措施,會在這裡頭後續來推出。"},{"start":19747.669,"end":19768.162,"text":"我覺得除了區域性的考量之外就是說一般一個普遍性的提升的話本席在這邊就是要建議就是說因為我有接到鄉親的一個反應就是說因為我們目前是以月票的一個形式每個月儲值一千二的使用是不是"},{"start":19770.602,"end":19786.315,"text":"以北部來為例的話,對有的民眾來說,他一個月可能使用大概15次,他的需求可能只有15次,所以你要他扶植一千二的話,對他來說可能就是相較之下也"},{"start":19786.715,"end":19787.836,"text":"教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案"},{"start":19817.119,"end":19818.139,"text":"謝謝主席,本席想邀請國科會副主委陳中強"},{"start":19850.848,"end":19851.229,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":19859.044,"end":19884.03,"text":"來,陳副,我想請問,前瞻計畫的第1期到第4期,那麼你們獲得了408億的預算,那本席看到你們的科技部的補助專題研究的這個計畫報告裡頭,我發現有同一個學者,三份的計畫,他的成果報告大致雷同,大致雷同。所以呢你們在補助研究計畫辦理,"},{"start":19886.089,"end":19906.605,"text":"怎麼會是如此呢?同一個學者,三份的成果報告都雷同,這是第一點。所以你們要怎麼樣去精進這個補助?這個很重要,這是第一個,你待會兒回答。因為我們看到本席非常重視你們提的激勵,"},{"start":19907.566,"end":19911.711,"text":"有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。"},{"start":19925.327,"end":19945.094,"text":"那你們在政府也擴大投入在半導體、電量子、太空、淨零碳排、高零科技、6G等這些關鍵的領域的一個發展。所以在這樣的情況之下呢,高階科研人才是非常的重要,是台灣的一個資產。"},{"start":19946.614,"end":19975.504,"text":"因此你們在113年的20.5億元預計從113年到117年這個計畫呢延續性的課題是156.6億所以它是持續的在佈局嘛那所以持續的佈局在科專的補助很重要啊那如果說一個學者同一個學者三份的計畫研究都是雷同的答案是超超也得說啊"},{"start":19976.144,"end":19979.613,"text":"可以如此嗎?好不容易有這個經費,我們應該要精進啊,對不對?"},{"start":19983.351,"end":20006.903,"text":"是,跟委員報告一下因為這個其實國家的這個高階科研人才那對我們各方面的這個未來社會的一個挑戰都非常的重要這很重要啊,所以你可以這樣隨便補一補嗎那委員垂詢的這個我們可能要看個案因為有時候老師他研究的一個時程所以本期具體建議,好不容易有這個預算這我們會來加強的一個到117年"},{"start":20012.146,"end":20030.024,"text":"我還嫌不夠勒我還嫌156.6億還不夠勒對不對我還嫌不夠但是你不能再有限的經費你的你要去看你的成果啊你同一個學者三個成果計畫都差不多不可以如此的"},{"start":20030.762,"end":20031.042,"text":"接下來我要請衛福部"},{"start":20046.969,"end":20062.628,"text":"委員好我們這個少子化的問題已經成為國安的危機那人家台積電寶寶著重的計畫2.0你知道吧私人公司他們自己去籌劃"},{"start":20063.869,"end":20086.512,"text":"他甚至在我們新竹、台中、台南他設置了4所的幼兒園配合員工的上下班時間他提供從早上7點到晚上8點的托育民間這麼做喔那我們呢我們只有說鼓勵人家多生政府什麼理由叫人家多生你用什麼去協助人家所以呢我們看到"},{"start":20087.765,"end":20106.56,"text":"人家臺積電2023年臺灣廠區的新生兒多少?2463人,是佔我們的新生兒比例的1.8%,它是民間公司,所以在這樣的一個情況之下,我們要怎麼樣去讓這個計畫可以"},{"start":20111.325,"end":20135.724,"text":"有應對啊,請就說明一下。謝謝委員的指教。這是我們在少子女化對策,這是0到6歲,這是包括2歲以下是衛福部,2到6歲是教育部。我們其實都有積極的在佈建公共化,還有準公共化的一個托育的一個服務。那我想說這幾年來其實真的有大幅的一個提升。"},{"start":20136.184,"end":20137.165,"text":"請停止你的回答,因為你目前所做的就是不符合。"},{"start":20155.154,"end":20183.653,"text":"沒解決我們少子化的問題如果我們的官員回到這裡來討論你一樣只有講你目前的政策那我們是打岔的因為我們要的是要怎麼樣解決給了預算最重要你要怎麼去解決所以這個部分你在第4期的預算裡頭是4億你要怎麼去解決方案拿出來書面資料給本席好不好我們不要成為全世界生育率最低的一個"},{"start":20184.394,"end":20185.994,"text":"本席要請教現在詐騙集團的一大堆詐騙集團詐騙的一大堆怎麼辦?"},{"start":20185.994,"end":20188.215,"text":"書發部你有沒有發現到一個問題詐騙手法已經侵入到哪裡?侵入到社福跟慈善公益團體"},{"start":20212.11,"end":20237.372,"text":"有這個方案喔!民眾你愛心捐款188元你可以參加抽獎喔!無所不用其極耶!他從社福、從公益團體這樣子做!目前我們一再要求你的網路廣告平台裡頭要加強廣告刊登驗證嘛!對不對?你事劃部現在是刊登這個驗證"},{"start":20239.338,"end":20262.27,"text":"希望讓民眾更清楚知道這是真的還是假我們現在是這樣子但是我們看到這個受騙的賬戶還是很多所以我要請書法部這邊你們要去研擬甚至連詐騙集團已經到了這一個社會團體都進入太恐怖了"},{"start":20263.14,"end":20272.868,"text":"你們除了驗證碼之外,你還有什麼因應的方案?讓詐騙不要這麼猖獗,可以對應之,好不好?是嗎?不?"},{"start":20273.621,"end":20297.522,"text":"是,謝謝委員。我們在打造專訪裡面也有針對廣路廣告平台的部分會有強化管理跟驗證的措施。另外,委員提到…驗證還是我們一直要求啊,對不對?那你除了這個之外,還有什麼可以提名?打造專訪目前是5個部會共同組成,所以裡面包含之後委員提到的受騙賬戶的救濟包括費用的部分,這個在法務…這個部分在法務部那邊都有提出相關救濟的方式。好。"},{"start":20297.742,"end":20309.747,"text":"好,我就有一句話喔,請你把詐騙目前日新月異的手法,你們去盤點,然後我們還可以怎麼樣去研擬方案出來,好不好?那書面資料給本席,謝謝。"},{"start":20323.424,"end":20325.164,"text":"前瞻這幾年花了不少錢,前前後後前瞻總共的預算是多少?"},{"start":20354.26,"end":20359.884,"text":"錢真總額是八千四百億。我們看到每個部會都非常的努力最努力成果最好的是誰?"},{"start":20379.103,"end":20399.508,"text":"我覺得大家都非常努力那最不努力的執行率最低的是誰?執行率應該就是說要看他那個計畫的性質有一些他執行率可能是一些就是流標等等不同的因素跟是不是努力不必然有關係這就錢了8474很大的一筆錢"},{"start":20404.315,"end":20426.827,"text":"那一般全各單位就要就拼命要可是有沒有人在做追蹤考核呢?基本上就是國化會針對他那個計畫的進度還有相關有關工程的部分這是公共工程委員會也都有比較重大的計畫會列管"},{"start":20429.483,"end":20457.702,"text":"這是好像大鍋飯,反正錢來了大家拼命花,那到底有沒有效果也不清楚。比如說蘇泊部,來我們接著請蘇泊部,也請主計總處這邊也可以聽一下。像蘇泊部這一兩年來你們總共花了多少錢?我原是預算嗎?我們每年大概,我們年度的公務預算去年是六十幾億,今年是七三億。那做得好不好?"},{"start":20458.706,"end":20480.644,"text":"做得好不好大家公平,我們很努力,我們有在盡力。有在進步,你覺得做得好嗎?做得好不好大家公平,我們有在盡力。那做得好就應該繼續做啊。你們現在的部長是誰?我們現在的部長是唐鳳。唐鳳,他有沒有續任?行政院以行政院公佈的人士為主。所以啊?"},{"start":20482.553,"end":20508.184,"text":"行政院公布怎樣?行政院公布的人事為主,我不方便講說。他換掉了是不是?今天為什麼沒來?今天就是由我來。我知道,我看到你當然知道你來啊。那做得好你就應該讓他繼續做啊。是不是因為他做不好讓他下台?每一屆政府的人事我不便評論。你們每年都花那麼多錢齁。"},{"start":20509.705,"end":20529.201,"text":"結果現在人民所詬病的還是打詐那我如果再繼續問你,你一定說打詐跟你沒關係詐騙那麼多跟你有沒有關係?跟每個部會都有關係好,跟每個部會有關係你是不是主要的關係?我們擔任協助的角色"},{"start":20530.614,"end":20553.024,"text":"你是協助,那主要是誰?打造綱領裡面有4個主責部會,我們是協助的角色。你們是協助,那主要是誰?打造綱領上面寫的是法務部、內政部。所以法務部是錯誤的,還有呢?內政部是不是?內政部,還有呢?通常會跟經管會。什麼會?通常會跟經管會。經管會?"},{"start":20555.563,"end":20580.305,"text":"那所以問題都是他不是你就對了?我們沒有這樣說過。那你說你誰辦啊?其實書報部現在大家發現打詐的流程當中,要嘛不然就是收簡訊,不然就是這個社群媒體LINE或是這些相關的。事實上你們在第一線該做的都可以直接就有作為啊。"},{"start":20582.418,"end":20607.592,"text":"或者你們發現比較異常的部分,你們應該可以控管啊。為什麼該管而不管,然後每年都花那麼多錢。好啦,我請協辦就下去好了啦,因為協辦最後你們也辦不了什麼事,然後錢就是繼續這樣花。請經濟部。請林赤。林赤喔。"},{"start":20609.301,"end":20629.37,"text":"林次長是這樣子,大概一般我們講的就是油電水氣、民生相關。那現在立法院已經決議說電價要動漲,這是全民的期盼。那立法院已經通過了,你們就應該遵照辦理吧。"},{"start":20632.42,"end":20645.548,"text":"這個部分事實上我們現在都是依法在辦理當中。依哪一個法?電力法的規定來做這相關的一個審議分組。可是立法院又有新的決議啊。決議就是說你們不能漲電價。面對這樣的情況,你是會漲還是不要漲?"},{"start":20649.235,"end":20670.12,"text":"我跟委員報告,我是公務人員,所以我們現在依照的部分就是按照法律規定,4月1號審查通過,以4月1號審查通過的執行方案在進行中。4月1號,那昨天是幾號?昨天是5月1號。5月1號,那禮拜二就是又前天了。那時候立法院已經決議有通過了。是。"},{"start":20671.761,"end":20697.569,"text":"所以我剛剛講到說我們4月1號已經按照相關規定的方式來做處理。立法院通過了啊,那你立法院通過你要不要照辦啊?我想這個部分可能要更嚴謹的去思考那個部分的規範是如何。你就公務人員執行刑事法裡面看嘛,立法院的決議你們要尊崇啊。如果你們沒有遵照立法院的決議下去做,那誰來決定喔?我們是準備要提高那個人喔。"},{"start":20699.107,"end":20726.67,"text":"譬如說現在已經說凍漲結果有一個人叫做林全能他在公文上批說要漲那以後有出問題我就告你喔我想我們依法行事我沒有特別這個那你怕不怕告我們依法行事我們就不用太擔心因為我們就分開嘛是誰決定就找誰啊抽絲剝繭啊全民都是支持凍漲的啊"},{"start":20728.103,"end":20737.823,"text":"那你要立法委員就是代表民眾阿在立法院決議通過的案你不但要尊重你還必須要遵照辦理阿"},{"start":20740.1,"end":20767.263,"text":"我剛剛已經說得很清楚,我們會依法來做相關的一個工作的資訊。你要小心啊,我因為我認識你齁,我是站在你的角度齁,來幫你啦。謝謝委員,你提醒一下,謝謝委員。政府是鐵打的衙門啊,流水的關啊。你不要因為這個事你就流掉了,以後也不會有人記得你啦。只會,當你接到傳票的時候你要去開,有人要告你啊。因為你沒有遵照立法院的決議在辦理。"},{"start":20768.65,"end":20773.231,"text":"理解嗎?謝謝委員提醒。謝謝劉委員。謝謝。謝謝劉召偉的諮詢。緊接著我們請黃士堅委員諮詢。謝謝召見。我請交通部次長。"},{"start":20797.065,"end":20801.388,"text":"我多次在財政委員會諮詢,我要求財政部長"},{"start":20820.153,"end":20842.312,"text":"應該針對我們國家有一項正重大的就是要引導受險業資金來投入我們的公共建設那這二十幾年下來受險業的資金投入公共建設其實那個金額都不大好歹至少"},{"start":20847.719,"end":20857.662,"text":"4、5年前還可以還一年有500億啦109年、110年、111年逐年下滑那還好500億滑下來355、443、112億可以說到了112年是雪崩式的下滑只剩下這112億"},{"start":20873.729,"end":20874.069,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":20893.474,"end":20917.687,"text":"資金可用的資金只花了萬分之三到我們國家的公共建設來幫忙做這一部分的投資。杯水車薪少之又少。那原因我就去查了一下。查了一下,原來我們各單位、各部會其實也不怎麼當一回事。"},{"start":20919.059,"end":20939.527,"text":"各部會長管有公共建設需求的,也從來也不會找財政部幫忙說,我們有這條政策,我們國內有來自於我們全體國民的保險、受險的基金、資金可用。"},{"start":20946.26,"end":20965.095,"text":"一方面受選業他們也樂得他們去找更多更高收益的地方,像國外都去啦,他們去了國外連二國都去了,因為他說那邊利率高,也不怕說那邊在戰爭有戰爭的風險,"},{"start":20968.592,"end":20991.629,"text":"因為他們哪邊有利益就往哪邊去那把我們國家公共建設擺一邊這裡面交通部、內政部、衛福部你們公共建設不少耶交通部我比較沒話講交通部確實有做這一部分的努力交通部好歹好歹這三年來"},{"start":20996.376,"end":20997.62,"text":"發行了7樣、7種的乙類公債"},{"start":21001.226,"end":21027.937,"text":"那這是請財政部幫忙的這做了這一些不錯的包括在民航、在國道、鐵道這一部分的投資國道建設計畫、桃園航空城的建設計畫等等等至少交通部還做了這些啦所以我今天找內政部、衛福部你們兩位次長上好就是要問你們說你們做了哪一些"},{"start":21030.081,"end":21039.767,"text":"幾乎沒做!太多!不當你為是!是誰決定發言權?那個...交通部!有一份命令!你站上來我要誇你!吼!真是!你站好我才能誇你嘛!不是嗎?"},{"start":21058.427,"end":21085.089,"text":"好,政府我要誇獎你,不錯,在這麼多部會裡面,你是不會說啊,我們要用錢吼,那就大筆一揮,反正有兩兆八千億嘛,吼,這個坐在金山銀山上面,筆一揮就有錢,你們沒有這麼做,你們確實很積極的找了財政部幫你們發了這些乙類公債,這很好,這非常好。"},{"start":21085.569,"end":21110.801,"text":"那我要問你的就是說那再來你們還有沒有繼續比方說我們台北市、我們台中市甚至高雄市我們有那麼多捷運的計畫要興建那現在捷運不只台北台中、高雄都欠缺這一部分捷運他們的預算的補助交通部補助的超過有的4層、5層、6層不等"},{"start":21113.442,"end":21129.47,"text":"但是是不是你們協助各縣市的捷運來代發這些捷運基金,因為捷運有自償性嘛,不是嗎?他做好了以後,乘客買票來搭乘,他就有這些收益,你們可不可以做到?"},{"start":21131.531,"end":21155.911,"text":"跟委員報告一下,因為這個剛才提到的很多的建設,其實它都有它的財務計畫,它財務計畫裡頭會去講到相關的經費如何籌措,那委員特別提到是不是可以協助地方政府採取類似像我們這裡頭交通部的這些發行,不管是公債也好,或者是透過保險基金來協助也好,這個我想我們可以找他們來談一下。"},{"start":21156.391,"end":21165.196,"text":"你們要做 你要發行的這些公債受險就沒有藉口可以講你有這些他要來投資他要來買呀不是嗎好不好 你們前幾次成功的這幾項我誇獎你們 那你們繼續以這幾個建設公債當例子那你就可以趕快大舉的來做包括捷運的部分 那個內政部該你了"},{"start":21181.144,"end":21195.169,"text":"你那麼多社宅,社宅也是自償性的公共建設不是嗎?你那麼多的社宅,那個衛福部我沒時間了,衛福部我一起說,衛福部你們也都沒做,你們那麼多長照,"},{"start":21196.289,"end":21212.63,"text":"那麼多醫療院所,我看你們最近在台北醫院急重症的大樓,包括你們台中榮董的第三醫學大樓,長照的我們有豐原醫院後里的長照機構,有胸腔病院新市的長照機構,這些這麼多,"},{"start":21215.493,"end":21229.775,"text":"我沒看到外福部、看到內政部做這一方面的努力,不要讓受險資金、閒置啦、空檔啦還可以跑到戰爭的國家去投資,這不是很奇怪嗎?"},{"start":21230.916,"end":21246.784,"text":"我們應該各部會合作努力,把我們的公共建設尤其有自償性的委請財政部來幫忙,把授權資金導入我們國家的公共建設兩位次長可不可以做到。"},{"start":21248.049,"end":21248.629,"text":"主席黃建豪議員"},{"start":21277.247,"end":21283.336,"text":"理事長交通部次長還有觀光署觀光署今天是沒關係 沒關係副署長"},{"start":21294.98,"end":21306.132,"text":"好,首先啊,這個數位部的部分,其實我今天本來沒有要問你的,但是呢,剛剛你對這個羅明財委員的回應,讓我覺得匪夷所思,也是很不可思議啊,談到詐騙的問題,因為詐騙的確是國人最關注的問題啊。"},{"start":21311.357,"end":21334.504,"text":"那其實你剛剛提到說你們是協力單位但是我今天為什麼要特別提出來因為你們的部長可能會不會是連你們部長跟你們自己那部業務對於你們推動的相關法案它的價值都不清楚所以部長被換掉了為什麼要講這個最近立法院剛剛三讀通過一個貴部提出來的重大法案這場什麼法案知道吧"},{"start":21336.403,"end":21357.084,"text":"電子簽章法,為什麼要推動電子簽章法?當初你們來說明的時候就是因為電子簽章法,它能夠去影響到現在這些網路上投放的廣告,能夠讓網路的身份上面能夠被實名的認證,能夠去解決詐騙的問題。那其實台灣現在詐騙有很多問題,就是源頭嘛,源頭我根本不知道這個人是誰啊。"},{"start":21357.785,"end":21385.753,"text":"他說他是這個陳文憲他說他是謝金河他說他是謝金河最近就說他是退休的部長他說是王美花最近也出現了他就說他要退休了他要去來教大家怎麼投資現在還在出現那就是因為有這麼多有的沒有的詐騙的源頭所以歷經了20幾年來終於數位部推出了這個數位簽章法本來電子簽章法本來是要給你們肯定的但是剛剛次長你剛剛好像我是很清楚你們在電子簽章法上對詐騙的貢獻的怎麼會這樣子"},{"start":21387.634,"end":21407.184,"text":"市長委員剛剛前面楊瓊英委員詢問的時候我們就已經說到我們會在廣告的平台身份驗證上面做強化的管理包含跟打炸專法有一個配套這個其實就是電子簽章法跟打炸專法所以我們沒有不清楚我們的說對啊所以你不是協力廠商而已啊你是主辦單位之一啊打炸打炸的部分在電子簽章法的部分我們是主政機關沒有問題"},{"start":21408.422,"end":21409.523,"text":"我跟委員說明,我剛剛講的四個部會是根據行政院打詐綱領1.5跟2.0裡面的分工。"},{"start":21435.984,"end":21447.513,"text":"好啦,那你們社會部算不算打詐的主要責任之一?我們在打詐綱領裡面協調協助的部會,但是委員剛剛提到電子簽章是我們主政的。你還是認為你們是協助的角色之一就對了?"},{"start":21452.506,"end":21453.007,"text":"電子簽章法及打造專法"},{"start":21467.835,"end":21488.79,"text":"去年交通部有提出一個很重要的得證,就是T-pass行政通行月票。這部分是一年來,我看到這個數據如果有錯,拜託你糾正我一下。全國大概4月份有67.1萬人次加值購買T-pass。4月份的話北北季桃52.4萬、中張頭大概3萬、南高屏8.3萬、桃竹竹苗2.3萬。"},{"start":21497.356,"end":21522.853,"text":"其他地區使用行政院通勤月票人相對比較少。交通部對於看到這個數據以後,對於提升大家使用大眾運輸跟對應推動這項政策的成果,你滿不滿意?如果不滿意,我想應該是不滿意啦,因為除了台北、雙北很多人買之外,其他部會區、其他生活圈基本上購買的人很少,那原因到底在哪裡?"},{"start":21523.713,"end":21544.191,"text":"市長,我想跟委員報告一下,有關TPAS的這樣的一個執行到目前為止,其實它對於公共運輸的載客的人數,運量確實是有成長的。Normally來講的話,平均大概是15.8,然後再依據不同的運區別有不同的成長的一個幅度。"},{"start":21544.671,"end":21561.652,"text":"所以其實這樣的一個對於吸引民眾來使用公共運輸確實有它的一定成效。市長,你剛剛提的這15.8是平均嗎?平均,對對對。有沒有更細部的數字拜託你會後提供給我們,因為就像我提到了,"},{"start":21562.673,"end":21591.267,"text":"從數據上來看,雙北當然最多人搭乘,它的相對的運距也方便,其他地方呢,也是15.8嗎?還是高於或低於?這個是部分,市長你們這邊要再加強一下。我們要提供給你,提供給委員,而且它有各種不同運距別,沒問題。當然我們也看到有些縣市確實成長的幅度是,跟其他的平均是有差距的。那這一部分剛才我也特別提到過,我們因為通勤月票它是一個通勤的,"},{"start":21591.887,"end":21594.609,"text":"市長,除了現有的、現行的交通運輸之外,包含說像我提到的,像以台中、中張頭生活圈為例,"},{"start":21616.664,"end":21638.858,"text":"他這個人口明明在整個臺灣那樣人口算蠻多的但他能夠願意來購買這個通勤月票的他其實是個大生活圈啊很明顯大家都在這地方生活但是他購買通勤月票的人次遠遠低於可能雙北或甚至低於這個桃竹苗那我在想有個原因啊甚至低於高高評啊有一個原因就是因為我們的大眾運輸的運據不夠普及"},{"start":21640.999,"end":21641.659,"text":"臺中捷運綠線、臺中捷運藍線、臺中捷運橘線等。"},{"start":21660.768,"end":21676.364,"text":"像捷運南線目前已經進入綜合規劃通過了正在細部的設計然後其他的綠線的延伸等等的都是在進行中那這部分我想我們會後整理一下資料送給委員參考"},{"start":21677.145,"end":21677.545,"text":"王美惠委員質詢"},{"start":21713.28,"end":21721.405,"text":"主席,我們請教育部請陳次陳次及經濟部請林次二位請問你們這兩位主管,你們知道我來自哪裡嗎?嘉義市嘉義市嗎?來"},{"start":21738.274,"end":21761.165,"text":"在這裏面的規定當中,我認為討論前瞻的規範及後議的強化的經濟當中,在這個規定當中,討論前瞻的規範及後議的強化的經濟當中,在這個規定當中,討論前瞻的規範及後議的強化的經濟當中,在這個規定當中,討論前瞻的規範及後議的強化的經濟當中,在這個規定當中,討論前瞻的規範及後議的強化的經濟當中,在這個規定當中,討論前瞻的規範及後議的強化的經濟當中,在這個規定當中,討論前瞻的規範及後議的強化的"},{"start":21765.339,"end":21776.389,"text":"但在這幾宗,大家都有看過管制的成果出來。尤其在這次,我們要和我們政治討論一個"},{"start":21779.378,"end":21785.425,"text":"鐵路高架,因為現在已經漸漸完形,漸漸完形的時候,大家都說你知道台積電封測,要去隔壁館,洗手嘛,是不是?是嘛齁?"},{"start":21796.497,"end":21817.601,"text":"大家都煩惱說加2次會變年化,但是本市在這裏是覺得說,我們加加2次要共融,才有辦法加2次會變成更好。所以本市要跟你們說,要如何共融的時候要有一個方便的交通。在本市跟你們說的就是,前瞻性也好,前瞻也好,"},{"start":21825.936,"end":21833.163,"text":"因為漸漸時間只剩1天而已。1天內,加2次的藍燙水庫的水源,有競爭性的驗告查1點的時候,你們要怎麼協助於當地的加2次呢?這我希望。"},{"start":21848.769,"end":21860.513,"text":"我們交通部及觀光署要注意這個問題。未來、剛好、大家都煩惱教育區的邊緣化。交通要方便的時候,就是要有一條清軌。清軌裡面就是教育管制。"},{"start":21872.237,"end":21892.948,"text":"所建設的交通,加以市政府也已經被交通部申請,所以本市希望是在交通部的,可以國間來統籌、來處理。本市在此的所謂意見,麻煩做一次回答。"},{"start":21898.035,"end":21920.925,"text":"好,我委員報告一下,剛才委員有講到嘉義市鐵路高架那部分,相關的經費,其實要謝謝委員的大力支持,幫我們協助,所以目前修正計畫大概4月3號已經核定了,然後而且也讓這個嘉義市的負擔,簡單講在委員的這個努力下,大概減少1億元的負擔,所以想這部分,"},{"start":21923.346,"end":21932.294,"text":"你若說到這,我本來是說要跟你討論,我是說私底下跟你討論。你一旦說到這,我告訴你,大家疫情都沒有完畏發生,每一個關期,你會合併的預算給他,現在企業的選,你有前瞻,為甚麼你不想頂管報告,是不是要用專案來補助每一個關期才對?"},{"start":21951.79,"end":21960.033,"text":"你預算給他的錢,平均是90億,你現在還要去負擔90億的時候,還有管治什麼人有疫情,所以我們的政府有擔當,應該是要你們處理得對,讓他們來承擔,來,另外再說。"},{"start":21975.359,"end":21976,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":21992.25,"end":22007.28,"text":"要做是會成功的,因為有專案、有前瞻的經費。我們說實在,對一個經濟合法的管治的時候,你一定好定好意的經費,你叫他去負擔這個,哪有你?像買房子,買房子以後我買你的,如果買你一千萬,現在去的,是建商要負責的,不是買的人要負責的,我比倫這樣你聽到沒有?"},{"start":22022.43,"end":22027.592,"text":"市長,現在委員會的意見,我們還在研究。請問請問部份,我們一定有相關的經費給加利市政府來做可行性的一個研究。他做出來之後,我們會怎麼樣來施助他?不是啦,研究,我告訴你,每次都說研究研究啦。"},{"start":22047.618,"end":22056.403,"text":"包括說的教育期的施政就一樣,跟一個報告,你如果不去看,到現在已經30年了,還沒換一個地方,如果你簽一個字,簽不發生,這是安全問題,如果會廢銷,你說報告,你要協助當地的管制,我已經開了一個會了,"},{"start":22074.366,"end":22090.458,"text":"你這條清規不是加上他自己的問題而已,加上他官司,都要趕快啦!那時候沒中也,大家可以跟我說,他要開一個會給官司,官司長來開會啊!你說如果我說這樣,國教團隊會投降啦!"},{"start":22094.039,"end":22116.594,"text":"委員報告啦,可能說得不太詳細啦,就是說整個嘉義市跟嘉義縣的路網,我們一定有討論過,而且同意被查。現在再來就是,就這個路網裡頭跟嘉義的藍線的部分,它要做可行性研究,那個是所有的建設,只要是捷運的建設都要有這個定數啦。所以這部分,我們在集碼、補助嘉義市,要去做。"},{"start":22124.019,"end":22125.56,"text":"主管預算凍結書面報告"},{"start":22147.331,"end":22148.791,"text":"請問您跟綠領經濟有關的問題,照顧地球的理想工作是什麼?"},{"start":22177.131,"end":22205.046,"text":"是我想我們就是要能夠讓環境能夠更加永續那讓環境這個經濟的發展跟環境的永續能夠均衡的在一起達到這個共存共榮雙贏的機會那可不可以講一些更具體的工作項目呢我想像我們現在這個推動這個綠能或者是永續的一個這個循環的一個經濟我想都是在這個我剛剛所講的永續發展的一個很重要的工作"},{"start":22205.706,"end":22219.121,"text":"在你們這次的前瞻這是第4期嘛規劃中有哪些是符合這個照顧地球的理想工作?像我們現在在水環境裡面有一個水環境我們就希望說透過水環境能夠來將這個"},{"start":22221.243,"end":22221.703,"text":"主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。"},{"start":22238.351,"end":22238.731,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":22259.788,"end":22261.589,"text":"19個民間團體發起聯署,希望能推動修護自然的生態綠領就業。"},{"start":22281.901,"end":22293.272,"text":"不知道次長有沒有看到這個新聞昨天勞動節的時候有19個生態勞工原住民地方創生團體共同開的記者會希望政府拿出行動有看到嗎"},{"start":22296.333,"end":22324.08,"text":"謝謝我有稍微知道這樣的一個發展議題那沒關係喔那他們希望政府做的是跨部會來擴大投資以修護自然環境為目標的綠色經濟政策那也推動綠色基礎設施以調和灰色就是我們過去的硬體基礎設施為主喔舉例來講喔原本如果一條步道那有政府預算的資本額可能是一千萬那一千萬只能做兩公里"},{"start":22324.72,"end":22349.039,"text":"同樣經費如果換成僱用人力一年其實可以僱10多個勞工未來我們需要的就是這樣的經費來維護步道的話同樣經費可以全年暢通所以我想就是經濟部好像還沒有跟上我們準總統他公開說要支持綠領人才的培育淨齡政見"},{"start":22351.02,"end":22351.04,"text":"律領經濟"},{"start":22371.255,"end":22391.488,"text":"是,我想我剛剛有提到說我們追求環境永續的部分在經濟部裡面有一個很重要我們的低碳淨零這樣一個人才的培育的計畫那這個部分是在我們現在的強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算裡面我們有來執行這樣一個人才的培育的計畫是低碳化跟智慧化的人才的培育"},{"start":22392.168,"end":22395.53,"text":"好,我們願意,我們會聆聽各界的聲音來做更好的處理。好,那一個月還是兩個月可以給我們一個報告?"},{"start":22420.983,"end":22421.363,"text":"文化部代表?"},{"start":22439.315,"end":22441.176,"text":"文化部先走,那我改請教育部次長,因為教育部永遠都有問題,沒問完。"},{"start":22453.149,"end":22479.537,"text":"市長您負責高教嗎?那一早上是潘部長在所以我就問他偏鄉的問題那您知不知道我們最近那個是我們交大那邊有客家的那個園區民眾捐來的土地結果因為我們的他們的產學合作計畫居然要佔了其中的一塊地這個事情有上新聞您有沒有看到?我有看到那這件事情您的看法是什麼呢?"},{"start":22480.695,"end":22503.115,"text":"這個我們其實還要再充分了解一下,因為它現在還在規劃階段。對,那因為蠻多的民間,不管是我們客家界還有我們那個交大的教師們已經連署,那連署的速度成長得非常快,好像已經到三、四千人了。因為它當時捐遞的人是為了要做客家相關的一個社群,"},{"start":22503.635,"end":22515.549,"text":"但是現在卻因為產權合作那要讓財團圈一塊地蓋很大的大樓那我想這個部分就是說會不會而且簽約的時間聽起來是蠻長的次長知道簽約時間會是多長嗎"},{"start":22520.934,"end":22546.38,"text":"目前還在校內,因為他們還在討論,所以基本上也還沒有案子到我們這邊來。對,那可不可以請次長了解一下,我們如何能夠不要讓民間擔憂就是財團會不會變相,就是說從大學這邊圈地,然後失去了原本不管是教育或者這個是客家文化相關的一個原本的就是公共的土地跟公共的一個利益好嗎?"},{"start":22546.92,"end":22550.324,"text":"李博弈委員、李博弈委員、李博弈委員、李博弈委員不在,請謝一鋒委員、謝一鋒委員、謝一鋒委員、謝一鋒委員不在,接著我們請張雅玲委員進行。"},{"start":22585.526,"end":22607.211,"text":"有需要什麼那個醫事人他需要什麼幫他協助一下好不好好謝謝主席那我們有請那個次長、交通部次長有請陳次長"},{"start":22619.053,"end":22627.879,"text":"市長好,我想跟您討論一件事情,我們都認同安全座椅是保護兒童安全的最後一道防線,這一點您認同嗎?認同。但是我卻在這個解凍案裡面,我再針對於提供"},{"start":22634.503,"end":22657.782,"text":"計程車裝設幼童安全座椅這件事情看到我們交通部的回應是說因為這並不是固定組織裝置可以自由拆卸跟年齡層的需求規格也都不同聽起來就是說有點複雜有點麻煩我們還是回到市場機制來處理那這一點的話我自己會覺得說這個可能我們需要再來做更多的積極的措施原因是在於"},{"start":22659.431,"end":22688.533,"text":"我沒有想下一頁好下一頁那就是說我看了一下我們的一個報告就是說我們現在每一年從106年到現在111年除了疫情那一年我們平均每久一台計程車就有一台有死傷雖然裡面可能不是在送小孩但是這代表說如果媽媽爸爸媽媽載著小孩坐計程車的時候很有九分之一的每久的台車他就有可能會中這個死傷的這個問題所以如果我們講安全座椅是它座位道防線的話我們的安全座椅還"},{"start":22690.015,"end":22707.817,"text":"進程車應該要多裝更多的安全座椅才對對吧做這個小汽車啦使用安全座椅這應該是交通部一貫的一個對但是我們現在進程車上面其實是並沒有提供的吧不好意思下一頁"},{"start":22709.757,"end":22731.496,"text":"因為現在目前我看到就只有480個這個安全計程車上面有這個服務那但是我也從網路上面看到其實有父母親有這樣子的需求但是他叫了7、8台車他只有成功過一次所以基本上他其實是非常難叫到那我們剛剛有講他有出這麼高的一個死傷率那我們等於是說如果我們不解決這個問題我們可能就會讓有"},{"start":22733.197,"end":22733.437,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":22751.712,"end":22763.738,"text":"計分計算或是說我們可不可以有一些宣導性的措施跟父母親說我們一定要去要求計程車讓計程車提供安全座椅是不是可以一起來做這些更積極的措施我們可不可以研議呢?"},{"start":22765.481,"end":22765.861,"text":"請教育部留持。"},{"start":22790.771,"end":22808.227,"text":"市長好,就是說最近的這個震盪的這個很震盪的一個消息就是全台的第一間臺文系也就是真理大學臺文系要停招了那這個停招其實對我們臺灣的一個母語振興的教育來說復興來說都是一個很大的傷害"},{"start":22808.727,"end":22830.195,"text":"因為我們現在這幾年上次也其實有諮詢過文化部啦其實我們需要大量的這些台語的人才去做一些戲劇啊創作等等的而是我們現在這個戲所就直接停招了那其實非常可惜那我不太確定說接下來這個真理大學的台灣系好像是要併入這個人文及資訊學系那但是對我們台灣的人才該怎麼辦這個部分我們的規劃是什麼"},{"start":22831.295,"end":22844.042,"text":"跟委員報告,他這個系因為他現在才剛報上來,所以他現在還在審查階段。所以我們還是有可以討論的空間嗎?因為我們還在審查階段,所以我們還是要先審查他的程序才能夠做後續的確認。"},{"start":22845.131,"end":22865.741,"text":"好那這部分好下一頁就是說因為其實我想這是在那個國家語言法裡面第9條第4項其實有規定中央主管機關應要獎勵我們的大專院校開設國家語言相關課程這是法規有規定的所以我希望可以積極的來協助真理大學這個部分那再來就是說下一頁不好意思"},{"start":22867.762,"end":22887.816,"text":"其實這幾年我們的人文學科不管是師興大學中文系也好其實是一直逐漸的在凋零收掉的速度非常的快而是因為大專院校畢竟不是一個營利事業單位不是說哪個狀況不佳就要把它砍掉而且我就有一個重點就是BBC或是不管這些這些很多的學者專家都在講其實人文學科非常重要"},{"start":22888.957,"end":22917.932,"text":"對於批判性思考、創造性思考尤其是對於現在科技的發展它都有一些更好的一個邊界的思考這樣子所以尤其在美國的人文學科比例中其實站上管理崗位的比例也是最高的,站15%所以我會認為說我們是不是高教師能夠針對人文科系陸續停操退場的這個狀況進行一個掌握然後來研議我們可以如何的來協助因為總不能讓它自己凋零,這樣可以嗎?"},{"start":22918.812,"end":22929.238,"text":"這部分是可以的嗎?可以,那我們是不是再給委員一個報告,我們先把最近的整理出來。對,那再來就是說還是延續了這個,夏業抱歉,就是夏業。"},{"start":22930.942,"end":22953.81,"text":"就是說因為我們前陣子就是有一些台語、台文的教授他們其實有反映到就是說我們現在在這個課綱裡面還是沒有用臺灣台語這件事情那我也知道說在等這個文化部的這個會議那我想要就直接就兩件事情來確認就是說在我們這個課綱的會在我們非課綱的部分早上其實有委員關心我們是不是可以從那個下葉"},{"start":22956.674,"end":22966.291,"text":"我們是不是可以從這些非課綱類型的母語資源網、閩南語競賽、閩南語字典上面直接開始來做台灣台語的更名呢?這部分是可以的嗎?"},{"start":22967.682,"end":22995.22,"text":"跟委員報告,早上已經有跟委員承諾過,就是說這部分我們會再給委員一個,那我們是不是一併給委員這個報告。所以在研議還沒有辦法確定一個時間點是嗎?我們現在是這樣,針對課綱部分,課綱的研修小組已經,他6月就會,我們6月會過課會送一個報告上。對。那這是另外的議題,就非課綱部分是不是一併做一個檢討。那麼早上有另外委員垂詢的時候,我們會就先給委員一個報告,我們是一併給委員。"},{"start":22996.664,"end":23020.93,"text":"好,那我再問,不好意思,我再30秒就好。就是說,在我們6月這個會議結束之後,如果有結論的話,我們是不是就可以在118課綱裡面去用臺灣臺語這個字呢?這還是要看到時候的結論而已。對,我說如果到時候的結論是這樣的話,就可以在118課綱裡面去。對,就是要看那個結論,還是要看那個結論。OK,好,謝謝你,謝謝主席。好,謝謝張雅琳委員的諮詢,請接著林月晴委員的諮詢。"},{"start":23033.432,"end":23041.136,"text":"請我們的食藥署副署長王德元王副署長我們請外部食藥署副署長"},{"start":23046.104,"end":23046.724,"text":"報告指出自行檢驗項目目標"},{"start":23072.839,"end":23095.667,"text":"比率持續到85%以上預計113年地方政府衛生局可以提高到93%這個計畫的母數當然規模反映的我們的檢驗量能所以想問的是這項計畫涵蓋了多少實驗室還有其中中央政府設立地方政府設立的民間業者的設立的這個檢驗單位各有多少"},{"start":23098.398,"end":23105.404,"text":"這個計畫所涵蓋的是我們補助的是21縣市衛生局的實驗室。這個計畫有沒有包括我們的檢驗設備,還有多少比例用在設備的擴編上?其中這個計畫大約60%的經費都是用在補助各衛生局去採購最新型的檢驗儀器設備。"},{"start":23122.362,"end":23139.074,"text":"副長知不知道,最近死案崩爆之後,因為各縣市檢驗單位的案件量大幅增加,之後站在第一線的稽查員因為工作量負擔過大而離開了。所以媒體最近有針對臺北市的離職潮做出報導。"},{"start":23143.728,"end":23169.533,"text":"檢測與採檢回來的樣品交給檢驗員去做檢驗所以因此檢驗員的負擔一定是大幅的增加所以想問人力不足沒辦法展現量能的話這些人員流動你們這邊有去關心嗎報告委員那我們這個前瞻計畫的部分補助剛剛有提到說60%是包含了儀器設備的資本門那剩下的部分也包含了人力的補助的費用所以這個人力補助費用事實上是會調整他們的薪資嗎"},{"start":23171.123,"end":23187.45,"text":"如果調不調新資質要看各地方衛生局他們聘的這個契約所以有沒有掌握說大概從2月今年2月起開始13風暴之後檢驗量能增加那你的檢驗員的離職率是不是有增加的狀況因為台北市爆發出這樣的狀況報告委員這個部分我們可以去了解一下"},{"start":23188.81,"end":23190.011,"text":"因為我們目前並沒有收到很明確的有這樣的回應。"},{"start":23203.777,"end":23221.012,"text":"那我們事實上我們中央跟地方定期都會開相關的衛生局聯席會議,那如果衛生局有任何的問題我們都可以提出來一起來協調如何解決。所以目前有啟動彼此去分擔,因為食安問題是國人很在意的,那個檢驗的那個量能嗎?"},{"start":23222.02,"end":23244.649,"text":"報告委員,事實上我們21縣市衛生局跟中央的實驗室之間,我們都有彼此的分工。那目前21縣市衛生局透過中央地方聯合分工的方式,大家都互相在負責。那其中如果說各衛生局在檢驗上有任何困難的時候,我們都請他直接送食藥署的實驗室來做協助做後端的把關,以上。好,謝謝食藥署。那接下來可以麻煩我們的政務次長,呃,李立芬次長。好,請你次。"},{"start":23251.155,"end":23274.211,"text":"委員好,次長好。托育服務專法想問幾個問題。就是說今天想問兒童托育服務專法現在進度如何?準備好了嗎?我們兒童托育專法已經60天公告完之後,收集的意見也跟各地方政府跟民間團體也開完會議了。"},{"start":23277.273,"end":23292.795,"text":"那現在我們就會循法規的程序經過我們法規會做審查之後就可以送到行政院因為我為什麼這樣問因為在凱凱案之後我們的院長是答應在520之前送進來的所以這樣子會不會跳票呢?"},{"start":23293.816,"end":23314.575,"text":"因為後來在這個專法有一些團體有意見另外我們也做了一些修正就是說因為托育專法跟兒犬法有點互動可是這當中有一些條文如果兒犬法還沒有完成一起送的話就會有一些條文上所以你預估到什麼時候會因為這跟孩子的是"},{"start":23315.756,"end":23340.948,"text":"推品質跟孩子的安全性有很大關係,我們也期待降私生比,本來1比5我們希望降到1比4,所以你預計什麼時候可以送進來?跟委員報告,這1比5降到1比4它是修那個,其實在這次裡面沒有特別去修訂這個,可是我們現在本來就用鼓勵的方式,補助一個人的方式來鼓勵我們的托嬰中心,"},{"start":23341.288,"end":23343.049,"text":"這與修法沒有太直接的關係,以我們的法規會安排大概6月左右報送到市政院。"},{"start":23361.758,"end":23374.85,"text":"不過在這邊還是要提醒不是只有私生筆還有托育人員的勞動條件那110年的8月本來就提供托育人員的鼓勵筆優化獎注然後並規劃我們112年期我們總共的托育人員應該給固定的那個"},{"start":23381.315,"end":23410.161,"text":"就年資可以給予固定薪資3萬到3萬6可是有民眾來跟我們反映說112年台北市政府社會局提供的準工的托育服務品質的講座裡邊公文內容雖然要求業者要給我們的托育員講座金跟相關福利可是業者並沒有依照我們的公文來做執行給托育員相對應的薪資跟講座卻沒有公務機關在核銷上進行查核的時候托育員到底有沒有領到這個講座"},{"start":23411.041,"end":23432.038,"text":"准公本來獲得社會局補助,到底有沒有給這些辛苦的人員,中央有沒有掌握呢?好,呃,報告委員,這個本來地方政府也應該要去抽查,可是如果真的有這種事實發生,已經有發生的話,是不是委員可以提供我們呃,相關的一個……是,那也麻煩齁,這個……我們可以來做抽……我們可以來做查查。因為現在中心的……"},{"start":23432.378,"end":23432.759,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":23449.121,"end":23449.421,"text":"王振旭委員"},{"start":23479.48,"end":23483.522,"text":"醫療永續發展與環境之間的關係我們知道不論是一般廢棄物或是失業廢棄物"},{"start":23507.745,"end":23508.045,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":23530.093,"end":23554.8,"text":"是一個事業機關來處理這個廢棄物的部分雖然醫療機構所佔的廢棄物的比例相對是低很多相較於其他的製造業等等那可是我們也看到近三年來這個醫療廢棄物的量越來越多那再利用率相對是偏低那這一部分不知道我們的衛福部有沒有做哪一些方面的改善方案或計畫"},{"start":23556.774,"end":23584.399,"text":"其實我們之前也有考慮到說有哪些醫療器材它是可以再使用的那這個部分我們也都會再持續跟醫療單位醫院這邊再來討論那另外其實整個在整個永續發展指標裡面其實我們在醫療這個部分要怎麼檢探那這個部分其實疑似是有在"},{"start":23585.319,"end":23585.499,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":23607.688,"end":23611.052,"text":"一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。"},{"start":23629.266,"end":23629.526,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":23655.459,"end":23678.956,"text":"市業廢棄物的這個循環跟減量這個部分,其實都有努力,剛剛委員提到市業廢棄物的在利用率達到85%,那主要就是在經濟部的部分,它從產源就開始做循環,一個產業的廢棄物可能是另外一個產業的資源,用這樣的媒合的方式把它進行,那我們家屋垃圾的這個資源循環也做得很好,那衛務部這個部分我們比較考量還是在意,因為它有一些是"},{"start":23679.636,"end":23679.796,"text":"主席"},{"start":23697.159,"end":23697.259,"text":"主席"},{"start":23715.307,"end":23715.688,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":23730.905,"end":23750.858,"text":"提供給我們一些意見上的參考。我們知道4月份要電費平均要漲51%,醫院都覺得非常非常的辛苦。那事實上目前醫院的這個耗能占了所有電力是占了9成左右。那麼這麼大的這個醫院的消耗能量之下,其實我們也知道"},{"start":23751.978,"end":23760.765,"text":"經濟部有一些節能績效的保證措施,可是補助的部分,過去這5年來一般的單位有補助到397案,醫院去申請了才49案。"},{"start":23764.187,"end":23781.54,"text":"我們看最後一張的資料我們如何能夠讓這樣的補助方案也讓醫院有機會可以夥同或者是麻煩經濟部這邊來提供相對的這個節能績效的這個促進方案我不知道目前在執行上有沒有哪一些的困難或困擾"},{"start":23783.566,"end":23805.632,"text":"謝謝委員,我想經濟部來透過我們剛剛講的那個節能、績效保證,也就是傳統所講的ESCO的部分來協助我們醫療院所,我們相當願意。那我們會提供書面的資料給委員辦公室這邊,那也會主動的,事實上我們現在已經成立輔導團,要來主動的跟我們的醫療院所來協助他們做這個相關節能的推動工作。"},{"start":23806.232,"end":23806.692,"text":"有請陳次長"},{"start":23839.426,"end":23864.26,"text":"市長辛苦了首先請教就是說捷運黃線的部分這個對於整個高雄的大眾運輸系統相當重要但是針對前鎮漁港的部分我們現在努力的希望打造像台灣的一個豐洲漁市的這樣一個目標那現在農業部也全力在推動當中那捷運現在也做了一個黃線延伸到前鎮漁港的規劃那預定在今年會"},{"start":23865.541,"end":23891.023,"text":"完成這個可行性的評估,那次長這個進度目前狀況是怎麼樣?預定是7月完成嗎?我們是補助高雄市在做相關的一個預算規劃跟研究,那目前我們還沒收到,收到他們相關的一個。他們現在在4月應該第一版的期末報告已經出來了,那我希望次長跟江副統我去了解一下好不好?"},{"start":23891.483,"end":23918.933,"text":"因為這整個計畫沒有錯是像委員講的大概有兩個方案那詳細的情形我們再去了解一下有兩個方案在進行那我希望就是7月份出來之後我也希望交通部繼續來支持然後讓整個前鎮漁港包括整個捷運系統的部分能夠整個建置完成就是做到了他現在只到前鎮高中沒有延伸到前鎮漁港其實非常的可惜那我希望把這個整個效益整個做大出來特別是全世界知名的"},{"start":23919.873,"end":23920.874,"text":"主席主席主席主席"},{"start":23943.052,"end":23971.732,"text":"再來是齊京的第二過港隧道齊京原來它是個半島是因為後來開港高雄港開港的關係變成了是一個離島但是它其中沒有適用離島建設條例的一些狀況那當然第一過港隧道的年限當然有做了一些延長但是第二過港隧道也要及早做一些準備不然將來恐怕對於齊京的鄉親來說有可能就會造成這個交通上非常大的一個問題那現在也在一樣一樣在做可行性的評估"},{"start":23972.432,"end":23972.712,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":23988.897,"end":24007.367,"text":"那這一部分我們會來跟高雄市政府來瞭解相關的進度,掌握相關的進度,那一有相關的結果以後來跟委員做說明。初步做出來是有擴建路跟漁港路兩個方案,當然選擇性上面,那我也希望交通部一些專業一線一樣進去來協助高雄市政府。"},{"start":24008.388,"end":24035.255,"text":"是不是這個會後一個禮拜先把你們所了解的最新的狀況也再彙整給我這邊好不好?請次長跟交通部同仁也再彙整給我。那我也希望6月7月完成了這個可行性之後,我也希望能夠繼續支持這些建設。不要讓當時旗津的鄉親因為開港,因為高雄港的整個而形成離島這樣的效果的時候,那如果因為這個第二過往隧道,將來如果有一些狀況的做法造成他們交通上非常大的不便利。"},{"start":24035.675,"end":24063.209,"text":"是我想委員關切的這些事項我們都會持續來關注它是好謝謝那再來我也請教一下之前疫情前的時候航班航點其實受到一些影響疫情那現在都陸續在恢復當中但是其實高雄的恢復速度我認為沒有桃園來得這麼的快特別是航班航點有些部分的恢復甚至於班機都變得比較小的一些班機那因為高雄機場也是南部最重要的一個國際機場它影響到"},{"start":24064.77,"end":24090.145,"text":"議員議員"},{"start":24090.205,"end":24108.908,"text":"百分之百這樣的一個目標,可以嗎?市長。我們盡可能來朝這個方向來努力,那這個我們會督請民航局盡速來協調航空公司。我們常常講如果南北的落差存在著的話,那唯一的方式就是不斷的去協助讓中南部有更好的一些發展。"},{"start":24109.489,"end":24135.816,"text":"如果沒有去推動的話大概就永遠是這樣所以我知道現在大家搶得很兇啦桃園也在搶那甚至於離島也在爭取但是我希望這一塊會影響到因為看到有太多南部的鄉親都必須要到桃園來做這個搭機才能夠不管是商務或觀光出去我認為這個部分長遠來說的這個南北上的失衡狀況會有點嚴重我希望這一塊次長跟整個交部同僚要大力來協助"},{"start":24136.576,"end":24139.577,"text":"高雄機場主任樂觀年齡回復疫情前水準,希望市長及交通部民航局同仁大力協助。"},{"start":24155.404,"end":24158.666,"text":"臺鐵在高雄機場移到潮州,現在要做一些開發,涉及到包括交通部甚至內政部的部分,現在進度應該是在內政部的一個獨委會專案小組在審查。"},{"start":24179.541,"end":24202.539,"text":"內政部全力的加速來進行以外我也希望交通部來推動加速推動預定是在2026年的時候應該來啟動相關的招商工作今年已經2024年了那這個地方當年的機場的時候其實大家也很期待它儘速的開發不管是公園、停車場、商場的部分能夠帶動地方的一個發展我希望交通部跟內政部加速這個開發期程2026來完成可以嗎"},{"start":24206.38,"end":24207.682,"text":"邱政軍委員、邱靖遠委員、邱靖遠委員、邱靖遠委員不在,請接受委員質詢。"},{"start":24234.572,"end":24251.952,"text":"有請書發部理事長。理事長好。今天要跟你討論"},{"start":24255.762,"end":24282.679,"text":"這個數位落差的問題那前瞻的這個預算裡面有邊這個偏鄉數位落差那明年就是要到期那目前我看的執行率只有11.8%所以要跟你探討一個數位落差那請問市長數位落差最嚴重的在哪一個區塊"},{"start":24284.78,"end":24307.847,"text":"回答委員,您剛講的預算是我們大概針對雲市及是補助數位轉型,特別是中小企業的部分。OK,你還沒有掌握出問題。數位落差在我們的社會當中,數位落差可能有區域性的落差、世代間的落差、產業間的落差。那最嚴重的在哪裡?"},{"start":24309.994,"end":24323.9,"text":"我想數位落差最嚴重的在於本身對於數位技巧或者是數位知識的學習,通常是會在長輩或者是社經地位比較落後一點的地區。那數位落差會造成社會什麼影響?"},{"start":24326.132,"end":24344.161,"text":"社會落差當然會造成不管是使用或者資訊傳遞上都會有落差。社會落差的問題顯然比你想像它會造成對立的社會。整個的社會像很多的偏鄉裡面我們看到今天早上我才在教育部當中在質詢"},{"start":24345.222,"end":24369.916,"text":"我們偏鄉只有注重這個偏鄉兒童教育但是偏鄉呢像兒童他家裡大部分都是高齡者在照顧阿公阿嬤在照顧但是我們對他們那一塊都完全不重視所以導致呢會怎麼樣小孩子所學的東西大人完全不理解所以呢他們就不溝通不溝通這造成世代的疏離相關牽扯的問題非常的多"},{"start":24372.165,"end":24399.813,"text":"那這個我都在推動壯世代這個書發不知道吧那壯世代是當然現在整的是指臺灣進入高齡化社會不要再有老人引髮族的世代這個世代是臺灣的希望但是對於這一塊我也看到我們在數位上數位部非常的輕忽非常的輕忽這個如果是在這一點我們來看一下輕忽到什麼程度剛才講"},{"start":24401.545,"end":24417.659,"text":"這一個是臺灣網路諮詢中心的數據在我們的世代之間那個最高的就是8到9歲他的上網到98那70歲的只有到40%相差到5成"},{"start":24419.14,"end":24433.266,"text":"這數據沒問題吧?然後在區域當中的這個最非偏鄉的地方然後跟偏鄉大概相差兩成我們現在整個的重點是在做偏鄉在做區域是嗎?"},{"start":24434.486,"end":24448.399,"text":"對於世代之間我們可以看到整個的數位落差已改善偏鄉現在所有的邊內的預算跟著力的重點一直在追求這個問題然後對於這剛才看到五成的東西"},{"start":24449.78,"end":24472.627,"text":"請問世衛部做了什麼事情?目前我們在國科會的支持跟領導之下,我們有參與所謂的銀髮科技的部分,我們也會高齡科技的部分,所以我們也會在高齡科技這一塊去強調所謂的help helper,就是協助照顧者還有被照顧者。據我所知,包括這個業界當中,就是做得非常少。"},{"start":24473.387,"end":24473.547,"text":"目前執行狀況11.8%"},{"start":24493.948,"end":24511.193,"text":"那這個錢既然用不出去,為什麼用不出去?那可不可以,剛才那個問題那麼嚴重,那邊變了多少預算?是不是你們想要做事情,是不是落差非常的大?可不可以以這個經費,可以來加強到年齡的數位落差?"},{"start":24512.413,"end":24527.831,"text":"跟委員報告這個部分是前瞻預算那前瞻預算當初是有法源規定我們就是拿來當初法源規定就是用在偏鄉用區域對但是區域裡面現在我覺得我們腦筋都很硬沒關係現在為什麼你的錢花不出去"},{"start":24529.072,"end":24543.224,"text":"因為剛才他偏鄉落差只有兩成嘛,那個可能你們探討需求沒有那麼大,而且按照我們的這個通訊的電信業者當中,你跟他疊藏家屋咧,他們裡面有這個基金也是在做偏鄉。"},{"start":24544.565,"end":24545.186,"text":"我們的區域是以人來計算的"},{"start":24570.826,"end":24571.707,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":24585.939,"end":24586.66,"text":"這一點可不可以?"},{"start":24606.84,"end":24629.354,"text":"跟委員報告前瞻基礎要截止,我實在沒有辦法再跟你承諾,但我們會承諾去,一定會從數位部的預算裡面去納入年齡數位落差的改善。對,然後也在我們從區域的數位改善來重視使用者,特別是高齡者的數位。這個沒有問題。謝謝。謝謝吳淳騰委員的諮詢。緊接著我們請王一鳴委員,王一鳴委員,王一鳴委員不在。緊接著請徐欣穎委員諮詢。"},{"start":24637.259,"end":24637.44,"text":"本席"},{"start":24653.965,"end":24677.198,"text":"武陽高架橋到楊梅,全國人民都很清楚,在車上聊天,從北往南,碰到塞車他們就知道湖口到了。武陽高架從楊梅下來之後,一路一直塞到"},{"start":24683.494,"end":24687.879,"text":"本席就本席了解五陽高架從陽梅到頭份現在的進度怎麼樣?"},{"start":24695.497,"end":24708.747,"text":"委員報告,就是羊頭高架,目前行政院已經核定了,所以現在正在做細部設計。已經進行細部設計,預計什麼時候動工?動工時間我可能還要再瞭解一下。這第一個問題。"},{"start":24717.973,"end":24736.684,"text":"那再來就是本席在第8屆擔任立委的時候,我不知道您還記得嗎?您那時候是高工局長。應該是吧。那時候我們全台灣有一個交流道,已經塞車塞了20幾年,到現在沒有改善,您知道是哪一個嗎?"},{"start":24739.68,"end":24762.384,"text":"還是我們全臺灣交流道都塞得很嚴重,但是塞了20幾年到現在沒有改善?我跟委員報告,從我當時當高工局局長之後,後續的趙局長,其實我們在很多的路段也好,或者是在高速公路…沒有沒有,我現在先請教你,你知不知道哪一個交流道塞了20幾年到今天都完全沒有改善?"},{"start":24768.833,"end":24772.654,"text":"主北交流道的改善案是您主持的。"},{"start":24789.48,"end":24789.62,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":24814.949,"end":24816.309,"text":"竹北交流道本身就很有問題,早就該改善了。"},{"start":24837.754,"end":24863.394,"text":"但是一直沒有,所以本席希望這個部分交通部可以重視。我們除了羊頭高架路段,那只是紓解車潮,可是交流道的改善,它本身沒有任何的緩衝的路段。這個部分之前您還主持了很多次會議,那您還記得為什麼後來會胎死腹中?"},{"start":24866.457,"end":24871.002,"text":"我想委員提到的那一部分我可以請高工局他們去研議看看,然後後續再向委員做一個報告。"},{"start":24884.235,"end":24893.879,"text":"全國唯一東西向快速道路沒有連接我們的一高或二高的,您知道在哪個縣市嗎?你現在講得出來東西向快速道路沒有連接任何的中山高或北二高應該是一條是台68、一條是台72"},{"start":24911.929,"end":24913.61,"text":"新竹縣市的,這個現在有在規劃嗎?"},{"start":24927.922,"end":24949.712,"text":"有正視到這樣的一個問題。這個不是二十幾年,這個是三、四十年。委員這就是有它的困難度,所以我們有去想到這個到底是跟剛才講的這個高速公路來,就是羊頭看有沒有。沒有沒有沒有,那個跟羊頭沒有關。它會在經過那裡。"},{"start":24950.452,"end":24953.054,"text":"有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。"},{"start":24963.078,"end":24980.955,"text":"對,那個是,我剛才就講到說,它有兩個解決的方式,一個是跟台六十一來相結合,我們台六十一在那裡頭會有些相關的一個改善的方案,看是台六十一跟台六十八有沒有可能,或者是台六十八跟國益有沒有可能,那國益就是跟那個洋流公路來建起。"},{"start":24983.598,"end":24984.899,"text":"教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案"},{"start":25005.169,"end":25009.592,"text":"好,謝謝徐欣英委員的質詢。緊接我們請蘇清雄委員、蘇清雄委員、蘇清雄委員、蘇清雄委員不在。緊接我們請莊教兵委員質詢。"},{"start":25038.428,"end":25050.436,"text":"主席、在場的委員、先進列席的政務司長、市長、官員、會長、公路夥伴、媒體記者、女士先生。有請我們交通部陳次長、文化部的李次長和資通安全署的鄭副署長。鄭副署長"},{"start":25057.476,"end":25073.286,"text":"兩位次長好副次長好我想今天是趕快借用這個機會兩個部門在我剛前天針對國土辦問了一個問題基本上是跟港務公司所宣稱的那麼這個新聞請次長陳次長看一下因為目前傳出美國他們年初那個國會發現他們的"},{"start":25075.367,"end":25078.408,"text":"主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。"},{"start":25097.194,"end":25113.435,"text":"都用的是內部操控的傳輸內網,沒有治安管的問題,而且為求慎重起見,你們的新聞稿,這個新聞稿是港務公司發的,曾經請專業人員檢核,還跟數路發,請數位部再檢核,確定沒有這個問題,這個可能你不知道,但我讓你知道,這是港務公司發的新聞稿。"},{"start":25113.976,"end":25115.717,"text":"港務公司僅提供廠商的自我檢核資料備查,速發部並沒有協助檢核。"},{"start":25139.446,"end":25143.813,"text":"那我想你們兩個一定聽了一頭霧水齁我現在給大家看一個圖齁來請看這個圖齁目前呢"},{"start":25149.222,"end":25168.972,"text":"臺灣也存在在臺北港、基隆港跟高雄港都有橋式起重機,然後這裡面的晶片它透過傳輸可以經過衛星的方式讓對岸取得這些所在的位置,除了操作的機能之外它可以傳輸設備,基本上是這樣子。那這個事情是怎麼發現的呢?再往下一頁。"},{"start":25171.094,"end":25187.706,"text":"這個就是我們所謂的固定支架的架空機,其實過去用中國的不是多數,日本、荷蘭,可是這幾年大量的增加。那另外除了橋式的起重機之外,一般移動式的起重機往下看,雖然目前中國的不多,可是成長的幅度是最快。"},{"start":25188.487,"end":25188.587,"text":"理事長"},{"start":25210.129,"end":25235.105,"text":"你跟你們部門查詢後,有沒有確定你們有幫台灣港務公司去做這三個重要港口、港部的橋式起重機的安全查核?我是不是讓我們副署長說明一下?好,請。如果有人說明一下,我們的合作部分是他們會做這個專業的這個集合的結果,集合報告拿到我們數位部,然後我們三屬再去看這個集合報告的結果,然後再給予回憶跟建議,然後接著的話就是在"},{"start":25235.565,"end":25237.366,"text":"負責人負責人負責人負責人負責人負責人負責人負責負責負責負責負責負責負貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼"},{"start":25255.091,"end":25283.831,"text":"我們國安的查核速發部怎麼協助其他相關的部門?跟委員報告這個所謂的港口不管是商港或者是貨港在我們國土辦的定義裡面它都是關鍵基礎設施那港務公司現在是所謂的關鍵基礎設施提供者是營運這個關鍵基礎設施所以對我們來說我們的規範是只要你在營運關鍵基礎設施你就會被我們列入作為資安查核可能的範圍但"},{"start":25284.952,"end":25312.64,"text":"我們確實沒有去處理到這個貨櫃的,剛剛講的起重機的這一塊。但根據我們現在危害國家自通安全產品原則的這個部分,這個未來我們也期待把它加入我們要新修的自動安全法裡面。未來會,但是現階段沒有。現階段我們有,現階段我們用原則就已經在處理。我知道,來陳市長,就本案來講,你們要不要回去查一下港務公司,到底有沒有請人家蘇發部來幫他檢查,還是他自己做了檢查,把報告交給蘇發部就算數了?"},{"start":25313.761,"end":25336.802,"text":"這部分我們來瞭解一下,然後把相關瞭解的情形來跟委員做說明。好,我想這個問題很嚴重,所以我才趁我們這次各部會都在場,前面兩個部會趕快合作。這個問題的發現也不是你們查出來的,是人家勞動部、治安署、安慰中心去查危險機遇才發現的。那請部會可不可以承諾,什麼時候可以給我一個確定的報告。"},{"start":25338.777,"end":25339.157,"text":"主席響鐘"},{"start":25379.679,"end":25380.619,"text":"國土署國科會能源署觀光署"},{"start":25408.718,"end":25409.459,"text":"新達港遠洋博區蘇郡經費到位了沒有?"},{"start":25422.781,"end":25445.422,"text":"前瞻的經費我們已經到位,那目前跟高雄市海洋局在做如何執行,在做進一步的協調。什麼時候可以完成輸進?就在我們前瞻的有效期間到明年。我希望能夠確實按照你們計畫,完成這個輸進的任務。是,我們會跟高雄市海洋局密切合作。負4還是負3還是負2?我們會根據經費的他們的需求。經費多少?"},{"start":25446.182,"end":25472.216,"text":"我們經費目前前瞻三期還有2億,還有2億多嗎?我前幾天剛開完會,我們要挖到富士,富士、遠洋博區,那個未來這個遊歷港碼頭才能順利建置,我說你那個遊歷港碼頭蓋不起來,這個我們會跟海洋局這邊密切來合作,這一定要確實去執行,是,那離岸風電目前一個興達海基,辦理南部的這個領頭羊,你覺得興達海基未來他的前景如何?"},{"start":25473.016,"end":25499.354,"text":"我們後續的離岸風電的進程還是會按照我們規劃期程走所以國內的需求還是每年會有1.5G這樣的量那至於國內的製造業能不能順利拿到單我想我們這個你要協助我們的需求還是會確定國營事業配合政策去投入那麼多預算的能力結果後來沒有任何訂單那北部獨大應該南北均衡嘛這個問題已經點出好幾次了我希望你要想出對策去解決好那下一位請國科會國科會"},{"start":25505.298,"end":25517.154,"text":"副主委,南科的管理局目前所轄的範圍非常大,對不對?是。這個包括新成立的橋頭,包括未來的嘉義,還有屏東,對不對?"},{"start":25518.516,"end":25523.378,"text":"有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。"},{"start":25538.528,"end":25567.063,"text":"跟委員報告,那事實上我們之前南科有請證原額也有合訂的16位,那這一次我們的原額評鑑我昨天才開過會,那我們也是外部的委員也都一致的這個有共識,那我們會再跟人總這邊積極的請證人力。因為沒有人不能去做好服務,不能做好相關的規劃,你有那麼多的園區要去服務,要去規劃,要去執行,人力不足這個是很大的問題。"},{"start":25567.483,"end":25567.523,"text":"國土署"},{"start":25583.683,"end":25597.319,"text":"這個落實社會住宅那個社會住宅各縣市我們有中央建也有地方政府建這個配合新建這個社宅前三名的縣市有哪些不管是一般縣市或者五六都"},{"start":25599.482,"end":25625.495,"text":"報告委員,那目前來講,那蓋的比較多的,目前包括台北市,台北市,我們這邊的,這個數據可能我們還要查一下,前三名,前三名大概台北市,桃園市跟新北市吧,目前應該是這樣,集中在北部,對,北部,倒數,倒數這個前三名,"},{"start":25626.738,"end":25627.418,"text":"市長你520會在嗎?不曉得"},{"start":25658.104,"end":25680.146,"text":"市出空屋也是一個方法,現在空屋率那麼高,那市出空屋也是一個做法?其實就是我們用包租貸款設宅,其實現階段已經大概有7萬8千戶左右。那等於它誘因只是說它免稅的提高而已嗎?對不對?你要有更多的誘因讓它市出,願意市出,或者你光是蓋這個社會住宅,有些縣市不配合或有配合都不好?"},{"start":25681.457,"end":25698.427,"text":"所以有些建設真的做得不錯,但是你要有政策去導引讓現有空屋能夠釋出,這樣顯示也是資源浪費。這個速度其實還不錯啦,現在我們一個禮拜大概有600戶民間的房子轉入社會住宅。就是因為這個租金,就是這個租稅的問題嗎?租稅的誘因,就可以讓他們出來嗎?如果變成兩萬塊呢?其實我覺得現在還算順利啦。"},{"start":25710.492,"end":25714.197,"text":"其實台灣的空屋其實主要在偏鄉,所以都市內的空屋沒有想像中那麼多。"},{"start":25727.062,"end":25744.07,"text":"特別是這個特別是都市裡面還是有一些空屋存在就是六都還是有一些當然一定要有不能怎麼搬家一定要有空屋所以你要有一定的足夠的租稅的誘因讓他願意使用這部分如果有需要我們當然會跟財政部再多討論好謝謝那最後請觀光署"},{"start":25755.622,"end":25771.455,"text":"有鋼扇之眼要爭取的那現在就是說鋼扇之眼一段時間你要增加新的觀光元素所以我請市政府提報相關的強化計畫增加鋼扇之眼的觀光元素我希望觀光局能夠支持"},{"start":25772.156,"end":25772.937,"text":"水環境改善尤其據點,情人碼頭算不算?"},{"start":25792.591,"end":25793.071,"text":"主管預算凍結書"},{"start":25823.572,"end":25827.557,"text":"林淑芬委員、葉正哲委員、蔡偉昌委員、蔡徐昌委員不在"},{"start":25842.314,"end":25854.765,"text":"張家俊委員、張家俊委員、張家瑩委員不在。許智傑委員、許智傑委員、許智瑩委員不在。邱昀文委員、邱昀文委員、邱昀文委員、邱昀文委員不在。魯明哲委員、魯明哲委員、魯明哲委員不在。賴慧雲委員、賴慧雲委員、賴慧雲委員不在。"},{"start":25856.141,"end":25873.87,"text":"好,今日登記發言委軍議,詢答完畢。針對中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算解凍案,包括原住民委員會主管1案、內政部主管2案、教育部主管1案、經濟部主管6案、交通部主管4案,行政"},{"start":25875.431,"end":25886.016,"text":"農業部主管一案。衛生福利部主管三案。環境部主管一案。速發部主管三案。國科會主管二案。請問各位委員有無異議。"},{"start":25887.597,"end":25911.851,"text":"無異議通過審查完略。准予動之提報。願會。針對中央政府疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算解凍案,包括內政部主管一案及交通部主管二案。請問各位委員有無異議。通過審查完略。欸欸欸!稍等欸稍等。審查完略。准予動之提報。願會。"},{"start":25916.465,"end":25931.315,"text":"好。本次會議作如下決議。說明及詢問到完畢。委員質詢及為其答覆或補充資訊,請相關部會於一週內以書面答覆。委員另要求期限者從其所定。"},{"start":25931.895,"end":25954.893,"text":"委員袁寬恆、謝一鳳、葉元之、蘇金權、盧憲一、陳超銘、李柏毅、林黛樺、劉建國、邱議員、張家俊、邱振鈞、廖偉翔、王育敏、牛許廷、吳清明、蔡宜瑜、賴慧媛所提書面質詢委員王振旭所提書面補充資料均列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆。"},{"start":25956.337,"end":25983.943,"text":"是,針對中央政府前瞻建設計畫第4期特別預算解凍案50案及中央政府疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算解凍案施案均處理完均,准予動之提報院會。請問各位委員針對以上決議有無異議。好,通過。令本次會議議事錄"},{"start":25985.842,"end":26000.107,"text":"授權由本席核定後確定,請問各位委員有無異議?無異議通過。本次會議議程已進行完畢,堂有不在場委員補題書面質詢,一併列入紀錄,刊登公報,並請議事人員協助處理。"}]}},{"id":"152032","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152032","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1bab682bf54b13c8c0cbbe991ada1931c55be169921a0a717720c962c4268ac435ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林宜瑾","委員發言時間":"10:16:04 - 10:27:03","影片長度":"00:10:59","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答)【4月29日及5月2日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":659,"end_time":"2024-05-02T10:27:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T10:16:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":403,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（10時16分）謝謝召委，有請潘部長跟體育署鄭署長。"],["主席：請潘部長跟署長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：部長好。我想首先請教鄭署長，這次全大運發生選手疑似食物中毒的事件，有10位選手身體不舒服，甚至有2位一度留在急診室觀察。食安的問題在這個節骨眼上更是特別的嚴重，如果選手因為食物中毒沒有辦法出賽，特別是參加那麼重要的全國性的、大型的學生賽事，我想對學生來講影響會很大，不管是未來的積分或者未來的升學。我們不樂見這種事情，就要引以為戒。今年4月3日我質詢的時候也有跟您討論過，你那時候有跟我提到，我們臺灣代表隊這次去參加巴黎奧運的膳食問題，你說會跟當地的台商公司合作，我們會提供最新鮮的當地食材跟真空的調理包，然後膳食供應也會有冷藏的設備等等，並請農業部特別來協助相關的食安資訊。看起來我們都準備好了，可是現在我想進一步詢問，菜單中有沒有生菜沙拉？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，我們不管是在亞運還是奧運，絕對不容許生食，但是籌備處那邊選手村的餐廳有可能會有，當然我們會教育選手自己要挑對的食物。"],["林委員宜瑾：是，特別是在歐洲，對，所以我想說的是，這次全大運疑似中毒的事件就是因為生菜沙拉，疑似啦……"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，此事需要兩週的時間把檢體做個檢驗，但是……"],["林委員宜瑾：我們是懷疑。"],["鄭署長世忠：我跟委員報告，因為同一個旅館其他大學的學生有諾羅病毒的案件，所以還不是很確定是飯店的問題，還是在取餐的時候，諾羅病毒交叉感染所致。"],["林委員宜瑾：瞭解，可是我們看2018年的亞運，南韓的選手就是吃到味道怪怪的沙拉，而有集體吃壞肚子的事件，有發生這種事情，所以您剛剛說我們要避免生食，這是好事，我就要確認這一點。另外，選手出國比賽難免會出去走走，想要去品嘗當地的食物，可是比賽期間，我想我們一定要避免接觸這種不熟悉的食物，特別是我覺得法國的飲食文化其實有很多的生冷食物，法國的生蠔那麼有名，所以我想……"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，他們在比賽結束前，我們通常勸導不要外出，通常選手滿自愛的。"],["林委員宜瑾：是，所以就不會有這樣的問題？"],["鄭署長世忠：是，他們選手很自律。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，OK，關於這一點，如果有這樣的要求而且選手也自律，那我們就不用太擔心，不過就是提醒一下。"],["鄭署長世忠：是，謝謝委員。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝署長，署長請回。","部長，我要跟你提一下，之前有網紅在網路上做直播業配的時候，跟孩子一起說出歧視跟訕笑資源班的話，而且態度非常輕浮，我想本席、部長及在座的各位，看到這樣的事件，一定是相當的憤怒跟難過。我們那麼努力在消弭歧視，為什麼還有人會輕易地直接在網路上說出這樣的話？這樣的網紅其實也並不是少數，只是他沒有直接說出口而已。要怎麼樣去建立不要歧視的這種心態，校園的教育非常的重要，所以我覺得是不是校園要透過宣導讓孩子去認識特殊兒，或者說老師、校長、家長本身要以身作則，引導孩子學習愛跟關懷，減少歧視，所以想要請教的是，教育部還能再多做些什麼好讓學生們跟家長以及老師，不要再對與一般學生不同的孩子有異樣的眼光，教育部對這種反歧視的法制化有什麼看法？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，我完全認同委員提的，臺灣已經是一個很重視人權平等，算是一個非常友善的國家，但是確實還是有一些事件，包含在校園發生的、委員所提到的歧視的問題，包含性別的問題、歧視的問題，甚至有用言語去做類似霸凌等等的行為，這方面我們都持續在進行。雖然每年都會有這樣的校園友善週活動，其實還是要不斷地提醒孩子，尤其是要小心不要任意開玩笑，因為玩笑開過頭，真的就是一種傷害，像這個我們會持續地來進行，因為真的要不斷地提醒。我想委員也瞭解，近年我們對很多的議題都不斷會做機會教育，像以前發生在中部的一所高中，甚至有名的大學也都有發生過，可能在園遊會，在一個什麼布條，像這一些我們都不會輕忽的，都把它當成是一個很好的機會教育，不只是提醒學校，也希望把它當成是一個機會教育，因為那就是一個過程，所以我想這部分校園要持續地做。"],["林委員宜瑾：好。再來，我要跟您探討，剛剛萬美玲委員也有稍微提及，就是去年修正的特殊教育法，用附帶決議要讓分散式的資源班跟巡迴的輔導班的師生比，在5年內達到1比8，可是我們看現在，高級中等以下學校特殊教育班班級及專責單位設置與人員進用辦法的修正草案裡面，幼兒園、國小跟高中的師生比都沒有達到1比8。我們單以幼兒園為例，有現場的巡輔班的特教師來跟我們說，他現在是一個人負責47個孩子，這些學生分散到各校，他一次面對的可能是4、5個在普通班的特殊生，因為他要跑來跑去，分身乏術，所以學生的權益真的也受到影響。現在的草案是把每位老師需要服務的幼兒人數降到15人，看起來當然是往好的方向走，但即使如此也沒有達到當初所說的1比8。","誠如本席剛剛所說的，除了幼兒園，還有國小、高中也沒有規劃1比8，本席詢問了現場巡輔班的特教師，他們說就算調到1比15，實務上也很難做到，為什麼？老師根本不夠。因為現行培育學前特教教師的師培大學只有6間，每間平均發證數大概130張，但有拿到特教師證照的老師也未必會做這個工作，以這樣的數量不要說1比8，連1比15都有困難，所以請教教育部，這次的修正草案針對師生比的部分，第一個，為什麼只有國中有達到1比8？再來，其他階段的師生比調整到底有什麼樣的困難？還有就是在師資方面，有什麼樣的精進跟增加的方案？"],["潘部長文忠：是，謝謝委員。我跟委員報告，因為去年當時我們在修特教法時有一個附帶決議，就是希望教育部來做這方面的規劃，當然給了一個目標，這個內容我想委員當時參與都知道，其實這個目標我們比較希望讓教育部更深入的去瞭解。委員，我以學前為例，為什麼不是用國小、國中或是直接用國中1比8的概念？因為幼兒園的孩子是安排在班級內，不是把他抽離出來，而且老師也不是在教他教保大綱裡面的內容，這方面比較是特教生活協處的概念，所以特教老師是融進去這個班，這個班本來就有一位或是兩位原來的老師在帶這個班……"],["林委員宜瑾：瞭解。"],["潘部長文忠：而特教老師是針對這些特殊的孩子給予協助。那國小、國中是直接對接到課程，因為國小、國中的課程的需求，所以我們在評估的時候覺得它的特性跟學前不一樣。高中的特教不是針對教學，而是針對特別需求，所以在整個評估裡面，我跟委員報告……"],["林委員宜瑾：先讓國中端？"],["潘部長文忠：對，而且因為國中是抽離出來，所以人數如果多了，根本就跟他在原來的班級裡面無異，也達不到幫助學生的目的，老師也會很辛苦。我跟國教署為了這個案子真的討論至少5次以上，我就是希望瞭解真實現況，該要對接上去的協助是什麼，才能夠提出今天這個基礎，而這個基礎不是到這裡為止。對資源班過去在型態上、各個不同階段，我真的做了非常詳細的瞭解跟評估，還是真的比較希望能夠達到實質的效能。第二個部分是委員講的特教師培……"],["林委員宜瑾：對，師資根本不夠。"],["潘部長文忠：我同時也請師資藝教司要同步跟著走，當時為什麼說要用5年，其實也一方面把資源班，不管是哪一種型態，真的對接好了以後，師培也要同時以這樣的方式來……"],["林委員宜瑾：所以要擴大師培的學校數？"],["潘部長文忠：對，現在也朝這個方向在走。我討論的時候不是只有找國教署，我是找師資藝教司一起來對這個方面瞭解。我也跟委員報告，國教署在討論的過程也多次跟現場的相關人員深入請教，包含學校，所以是用這樣的方式來形成。我也覺得比較不好意思，我一向務實，不會說通通都1比8，如果通通都1比8，你會發現師資培育是一件事，再來一個就是會覺得他明明是進到一個班，為什麼把他抽出來教1比8的學生？這個在不同階段，我也認為那更是另外一個不公平的地方。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，瞭解，不過還是努力，5年內……"],["潘部長文忠：是，一定。我想這個基礎真的是打破幾十年，大家談了很久，雖然我把它往這個方向走，之後還是會滾動修正。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝，部長辛苦！"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。"],["林委員宜瑾：謝謝召委。"],["主席：謝謝兩位。本席宣布，我們在登記第9號的郭昱晴委員質詢完畢之後，就休息5分鐘。","現在請登記第7號的陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","盧縣一","萬美玲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","葉元之","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","吳春城","林倩綺","徐富癸","何欣純","黃仁","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","范雲","邱志偉","黃珊珊","劉建國"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修\n正草案」案、(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」\n案、( 三) 委員馬文君等17 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真空調理包、膳食工業冷藏設備等,請農業部特別協助相關食安資訊。」菜單中有沒有生菜沙拉?"},{"start":94.191,"end":117.617,"text":"報告委員我們在不管是亞運還是奧運絕對不容許生食但是籌備處那邊的選手村的餐廳是有可能會有當然我會教育選手自己要挑對的食物所以我想說是這樣因為這次全大運疑似中毒的事件就是因為生菜沙拉疑似啦吼"},{"start":118.288,"end":122.613,"text":"報告委員他需要兩週時間把檢體做檢驗但是呢委員報告因為同一個旅館其他的大學的學生其實是有諾羅病毒的案件所以還不是很確定是飯店的問題還是在取餐的時候諾羅病毒的調查感染"},{"start":135.066,"end":151.355,"text":"可是我們看2018的亞運南海的選手就是吃到味道怪怪的沙拉集體吃壞肚子的事件有這種事情發生所以您剛說我們就是避免生死這是好事我就要確認這一點那另外就說選手出國比賽難免會出去走走"},{"start":154.517,"end":181.716,"text":"那去品嘗當地的食物可是比賽期間我想我們一定要避免接觸這種不熟悉的食物特別我覺得法國的飲食文化其實很多的生冷食物法國的生蠔那麼的有名所以我想報告委員那麼在比賽結束前我們通常勸導不要外出啦比賽還沒有 通常選手滿自愛的是是是 所以就不會有這樣的一個問題他們選手很自律"},{"start":183.377,"end":205.105,"text":"這一點的話如果是有這樣的要求跟選手有自律那我們就不用太擔心不過就是提醒一下謝謝署長那署長請回那部長我來跟你提一下就是說之前有網紅在網路上做直播業配的時候跟孩子一起說出歧視跟善笑資源班的話而且態度非常的輕浮"},{"start":207.526,"end":230.146,"text":"那我想本席跟部長您我跟在座的各位我們看到這樣的事件一定是相當的憤怒跟難過那我們那麼努力在消擬就是歧視那為什麼還有人輕易會在直接在網路上去說出這樣的話那我想這樣的網紅其實他也並不是少數只是他沒有直接說出口而已"},{"start":230.706,"end":255.936,"text":"好 那麼我覺得那怎麼樣去建立這種不要歧視的這種心態校園的教育就非常的重要所以我覺得是不是校園要透過宣導讓孩子去認識特殊兒或者說老師、校長、家長本身也要以身作則那引導孩子學習愛跟關懷那減少歧視所以想要請教的是說教育部還能再多做些什麼"},{"start":256.816,"end":276.446,"text":"教育部立法院第11屆第1會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第3會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期"},{"start":284.83,"end":299.126,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":303.07,"end":331.702,"text":"校園友善週,其實還是要不斷提醒孩子尤其是要小心不要因為一個開玩笑那個遊戲要開過頭了真的就是一種傷害啦像這個我們會持續的來進行是因為真的要不斷的提醒那我想委員也了解近年我們對很多的議題都不斷會做機會教育像以前發生在中部的一所高中甚至我們的有名的大學名大學也都有發生過可能在研遊會啦"},{"start":332.762,"end":335.746,"text":"教育部列席及文化委員會第11屆第12屆全體委員會第12屆全體委員會第12屆全體委員會第12屆全體委員會第12屆全體委員會第12屆全體委員會第12屆全體委員會第12屆全體委員會第12屆全體委員會第12屆全體委員會"},{"start":347.719,"end":359.007,"text":"那再來我們再來跟您探討剛剛萬美林委員也有跟您稍微提及的就是說我們去年修正了特殊教育法陸附帶決是要讓分散式的這個資源班跟巡迴的輔導班的師生比在五年內達到這個1比8那我們可是我們看現在這個高等中等高級中等以下學校特殊教育班班級及專責單位設置與人員禁用辦法的修正草案裡面"},{"start":376.22,"end":386.103,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化"},{"start":403.749,"end":417.087,"text":"現在的草案是把每位老師需要服務的幼兒人數降到15人,看來當然是往好的方向走,可是也沒有達到當初所說的一比八。"},{"start":419.19,"end":436.08,"text":"本席剛所說除了幼兒園還有國小高中也沒有規劃一比八那本席詢問了這個現場巡撫班的這個特教師他們說就算調到一比十五十五上也很難做到為什麼根本是老師不夠"},{"start":437.06,"end":459.537,"text":"因為現行的培育學前特教教師的師培大學只有六間每間平均發證數大概130張但有拿到特教士的證照的老師也未必會做這個工作以這樣的數量不要說1比8、1比15都有困難所以請教教育部這次的修正草案師生比"},{"start":461.238,"end":482.444,"text":"只有國中有達到一比八。其他階段的師生比調整到底要有什麼樣的困難?還有在師資方面有什麼樣精進跟增加的方案?謝謝委員,我跟委員報告因為當時我們在特教法去年修有一個附帶決議就是希望教育部來做這方面的規劃當然給了一個目標"},{"start":484.584,"end":507.691,"text":"當然這個內容我想委員當時參與都知道其實這個目標我們比較希望讓教育部更深入地去了解委員我以學前為例為什麼不是用國小、國中或是直接國中1比8的概念因為幼兒園孩子是安排在不是把他抽離出來而且他也不是在教他教保大綱裡面的內容"},{"start":508.271,"end":512.154,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期"},{"start":526.616,"end":527.656,"text":"國小、國中課程需求與一般性學檢不一樣。高中特教不是針對教學,而是特別需求。"},{"start":544.923,"end":547.004,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":567.79,"end":571.733,"text":"這個基礎不是一勞到這裡為止因為我跟委員報告我對資源班的過去在形態上各個不同階段真的我是做了一個非常詳細的了解跟評估還是真的比較希望能夠達到這樣的一個實質效能第二部分委員講那個特教的師培這個我同時也請師之一教師要同步跟著走"},{"start":589.787,"end":592.789,"text":"當時為什麼說要用五年其實也一方面把這個資源班不管他哪一種型態真的對接好了以後那師培也要到同時以這樣的方式來所以要擴大這個師培的學校數現在也朝這個方向在走我討論的時候不是只有找國教室我是找私資教室一起要來"},{"start":607.978,"end":613.301,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會"},{"start":626.25,"end":643.382,"text":"通通都1比8,那我要跟委員報告通通都1比8你會發現施肢培育是一件事再來一個就會覺得他明明是進到一個班那為什麼跟我把他抽出來我要教8個1比8的學生這個在不同階段我也認為那更是另外一個我認為不公平的地方"},{"start":644.182,"end":645.224,"text":"草案案件事務委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"152031","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152031","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db15c60fd5049fc04f8d575e50b9cd8685a55be169921a0a7173111ea93ed5935be5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"涂權吉","委員發言時間":"10:16:21 - 10:25:57","影片長度":"00:09:36","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員王育敏等19人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【以上議案，如經復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-14"},"duration":576,"end_time":"2024-05-02T10:25:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T10:16:21+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":478,"blocks":[["涂委員權吉：（10時16分）謝謝主席，請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：部長，討論一下關於世界衛生大會（WHA）的事情，美國國務卿席森（Michele Sison）最近會晤我們日內瓦的辦事處的處長蘇瑩君，他也重申美國支持臺灣參加世界衛生大會。4月30日國務院的亞太助理國務卿康達也再次表達，為美國發聲希望支持臺灣以觀察員的身分參加。2023年也有22個國家支持美國的立場，他們預計今年支持臺灣以觀察員身分參加世界衛生大會的國家數也會增加。我們看到從2018年一直到2024年，美國一直都是官方表態很支持臺灣參加WHA。我也想請問，對於美國支持這一部分，部長是不是覺得美國一直以來真的也都是非常支持我們參加WHA？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個是沒有錯，美國一直以來都是支持我們參加WHA，作為世界衛生組織裡面有意義參與的一員，這從美國過去官方的態度都顯現出來，我們對這一點非常感謝。實際上我們為什麼這幾年來受到世界各方的支持越來越大，理念相同的國家越來越多，在WHA的大會裡面也持續在為我們發聲，當然我們對於各方面進行了一些努力，也是我們的一些成果，雖然目前都還沒有辦法進入WHA當觀察員。"],["涂委員權吉：好，美國是中華民國很重要的一個國際夥伴，他也多次發聲力挺我們參加WHA，當然我們也樂觀其成。我們看到從2019年一直到2023年，每年都有很多友邦國家提案支持我們參加WHA。WHA裡面一百九十幾個會員國，幾乎都是美國的邦交國，當然我們也希望美國儘量多出一點力，讓我們能夠參加WHA。可是我們不瞭解的就是，為什麼這麼多提案裡面，美國沒有一次提案是支持我們的，這一部分部長可以為我們說明嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分的話，通常都是我們要藉由友邦來提案，大概是這樣。有時候美國也會跟其他理念相近國家，在大會裡面有一些發言來支持我們，但提案的部分都是透過友邦。"],["涂委員權吉：對，那可不可以請部長為我們說明，難道美國跟著這些友邦國家，如果他來提案的話，我覺得這個力量會更強大，還是有什麼因素，他沒有辦法跟著友邦國家提案支持我們？"],["薛部長瑞元：這當然是有必須要做整體外交的一些考量，美國也不會說跟臺灣的關係只有在支持WHA的這個部分，還有許多的合作關係在進行當中。整體考量的話，也許就是美國政府方面的一個策略。"],["涂委員權吉：如果美國力挺我們用「中華臺北」去參加WHA 的話，那你覺得我們用「中華臺北」的名義參加，是去還是不去？"],["薛部長瑞元：之前臺灣曾經進入到世衛當觀察員，我記得當時用的也差不多是這樣子的一個名稱。"],["涂委員權吉：所以，如果以「中華臺北」過去，部長也覺得是可以的，沒有矮化的問題吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該不會啦！應該不會，因為這有前例可循。"],["涂委員權吉：對，因為據我們瞭解，之前馬政府執政的時代就用「中華臺北」的名義參加。所以我們在這邊也希望衛福部將來能夠繼續爭取，當然我們很希望美國力挺，我們用「中華臺北」名義，如果也認為沒有矮化的問題，希望能夠力挺用「中華臺北」，讓我們能夠參加WHA。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個都必須要去努力。"],["涂委員權吉：好。接下來我想請問石崇良署長。"],["石署長崇良：委員好。"],["涂委員權吉：石署長，我請問一下，這跟部桃新屋分院擴建有關，因為署長2020年的時候是擔任次長，我記得當初好像對部桃新屋分院擴建這個計畫，次長有瞭解嗎？"],["石署長崇良：時間有點久，再請委員提醒一下。"],["涂委員權吉：據我們瞭解，在109年的時候就有立委詢問關於部桃新屋分院擴建的問題，你也回答說責無旁貸。所以我一直想瞭解，署長那時候是擔任次長，你從2020年一直擔任到2023年，針對部桃新屋分院擴建，這到底有沒有計畫、到底有沒有進行、到底有沒有進度？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個計畫是有通過，那個預算是從部桃本身的基金預算支應。"],["涂委員權吉：所以這個經費，預算已經有編列出來了嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我的印象中是有。"],["涂委員權吉：這個我們希望爭取一下，我一直在講，桃園的醫療資源真的非常匱乏，全桃園市現在兩百三十幾萬人口，唯一的醫學中心就是長庚，就是桃園跟新北的交接處，整個桃園境內沒有一個醫學中心，而且沿海的醫療真的非常匱乏。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員在講的，桃園醫療資源匱乏，這個我不太敢贊同，因為相較之下。但是你說沿海，這個我是可以……"],["涂委員權吉：對，因為沿海的部分，看起來真的沒有，連地區型醫院都沒有，急診病房都看不到，所以我們對於部桃新屋分院擴建，大家都非常重視。而且我一直重申，蔡總統在2019年就告訴民眾說衛福部已經通過這個案子，然後2023年，那時候的副總統，就是我們的準總統賴清德也一直說，將要擴建部桃新屋分院第二醫療大樓。所以我一直不瞭解，從2023年那時候，石署長就是當時的次長，對這個案子都說已經責無旁貸要進行，到現在2024年了。我可不可以請部長為我們說明一下這到底進行到哪裡了？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個進度上面可能有一點落後，其實預算都已經有了，現在就是要做這一個計畫書的審查。詳細的情形，因為今天醫福會沒有派人過來，所以……"],["涂委員權吉：所以我們確定這個案子已經有預算，有在進行了嘛？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，可能就是計畫書的審查這個部分的話，是不是還有哪一些地方必須要做補充，我想明天是不是我請醫福會的同仁到委員辦公室去跟您做報告？"],["涂委員權吉：好，這部分也感謝部長，因為我們希望政策要有延續性，包含建設也是一樣，雖然我們部長在520即將要卸任，但是像我們石署長本身也是事務官，我希望我們接下來衛福部針對這些政策還有建設，希望能夠繼續幫我們進行，不要因為520又有所延宕……"],["薛部長瑞元：不會啦！"],["涂委員權吉：你看從2020年，我們從民國109年蔡總統說通過到現在，我們真的完全看不到進度，所以這一部分希望我們還是要繼續為民眾來努力。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["涂委員權吉：好，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝涂委員。","接下來我們請廖偉翔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-14","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","黃秀芳","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","劉建國","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","賴士葆","李彥秀","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","賴惠員","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；二、委員蘇清\n泉等27人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康\n保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":1.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.36284375,"end":11.927843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.383468750000002,"end":13.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.95221875,"end":18.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.96471875,"end":20.43284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.719718750000002,"end":50.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.554718750000006,"end":53.102843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.642843750000004,"end":78.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.07346875,"end":94.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.85159375,"end":101.58471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.02346875,"end":119.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.93409375,"end":106.98471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.70846875000001,"end":151.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.02846875,"end":151.77096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.24346875,"end":152.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.27721875,"end":159.19596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.38159375,"end":201.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":201.83909375000002,"end":208.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.43721875,"end":221.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.25784375,"end":222.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.27471875,"end":222.93284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.33784375000002,"end":236.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.44971875000002,"end":261.50909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.50909375000003,"end":261.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.18409375000005,"end":271.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":272.81534375,"end":288.88034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":288.88034375,"end":294.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.89721875000004,"end":289.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.33096875,"end":299.14034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.27534375000005,"end":324.72284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":325.81971875,"end":328.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.51534375,"end":329.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.53221875,"end":329.54909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.54909375,"end":329.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.58284375,"end":329.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.83596875,"end":329.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.85284375000003,"end":329.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.20721875000004,"end":330.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.22409375,"end":330.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.24096875000004,"end":330.71346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.32096875,"end":335.57346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":340.51784375,"end":341.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.78784375000004,"end":340.95659375},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lapt��四月三十號國務院的亞太助理國務卿康達也再次表達為美國發聲說希望支持台灣以觀察員的身份來參加。那2023年也有22個國家支持美國的立場。那他們也預計今年"},{"start":65.146,"end":93.512,"text":"netesure我們台灣以觀察員身份參加世界衛生大會的這個國家的數也會增加我們看得到從2018年一直到2024年美國一直都是看起來都從官方來表態很支持台灣來參加WHA那我也想請問一下我們部長對於美國支持這部分部長是不是覺得美國一直以來都是真的也都是非常支持我們參加WHA"},{"start":95.232,"end":115.079,"text":"這是沒有錯,美國一直以來都是支持我們來參加WHA,作為世界衛生組織裡面有意義參與的一員。這是美國從過去官方的態度都顯現出來,我們對這一點非常感謝。"},{"start":115.879,"end":136.886,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":136.886,"end":152.193,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":152.313,"end":174.476,"text":"好那當然美國是我們中華民國很重要的一個國際的夥伴那他也在多次的發聲力挺我們參加WHA當然我們也是樂觀其成那從2019年我們看到從2019年我們很多的友邦國家一直到2023年每年都很多的友邦國家"},{"start":174.957,"end":201.869,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":202.449,"end":221.543,"text":"這部分的話通常都是我們又藉由友邦來做提案。大概是這樣。那在大會裡面有時候美國也會跟其他裡面上線國家在這邊在大會裡面有一些發言來支持我們。但是提案的部分都是透過友邦。"},{"start":222.544,"end":235.797,"text":"對那可不可以請部長為我們說明那難道美國他跟著這些友邦國家如果他來提案的話我覺得這力量會更強大還是有什麼因素他沒有辦法跟著友邦國家提案支持我們?"},{"start":237.002,"end":260.934,"text":"這當然是有必須要去做整體外交的一些考量那美國也不會說這跟台灣的關係只有在支持WHA的這一個部分那還有許多的合作的關係在進行當中那整體的考量的話那也許就是說他們美國的政府方面的話的一個策略"},{"start":262.233,"end":271.695,"text":"那如果美國力挺我們用中華台北去參加WHA的話,那你覺得我們用中華台北的名義參加這是去還是不去?"},{"start":272.847,"end":276.228,"text":"所以如果以中華台北去,部長也覺得是可以的沒有矮化的問題吧?"},{"start":295.713,"end":309.586,"text":"應該不會,因為這有潛力可學對,因為據我們了解之前馬政府執政的時代就用以中華台北民意來參加所以我們在這邊也希望我們衛福部"},{"start":310.026,"end":335.811,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":340.9,"end":358.307,"text":"市長我請問一下因為這跟我們那個部桃我們新屋分院擴建有關係因為我們次長好像從2020年沒有我們署長是2020年的時候是擔任次長那我記得當初好像對這個部桃新屋分院擴建這個計畫次長有瞭解嗎?"},{"start":362.693,"end":390.493,"text":"時間有點久,再請委員提醒一下因為據我們了解你在109年的時候就有立委詢問到關於部桃新屋分業擴建的問題那你也回答說則無旁貸那所以我一直想了解說我們署長那時候擔任是次長從2020年你一直擔任到2023年那針對這部桃新屋分業擴建這到底有沒有計畫到底有沒有進行到底有沒有進度"},{"start":391.704,"end":394.587,"text":"這個是有通過?這個是計畫是有通過"},{"start":400.06,"end":409.585,"text":" bicyn Kwan- 預算是從部桃本身的基金預算去支援的。所以這個經費預算已經有編列出來嗎?"},{"start":409.585,"end":427.915,"text":"bicyn Kwan- 我的印象中是有。對,因為這個我們希望來爭取一下,因為我一直在講我們桃園這個醫療資源真的非常的匱乏。桃園是現在兩百三十幾萬人口,唯一的醫學中心就是在我們"},{"start":428.695,"end":448.78,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":449.1,"end":478.052,"text":"對,因為沿海的部分真的看起來真的沒有連這個地區型的醫院都沒有你急診病房都看不到所以我們對這部桃新屋分院這個擴建大家都非常的重視而且我一直在重申我們蔡總統在2019年的時候就告訴我們民眾說衛福部已經通過這個案子然後對2023年我們的那時候的副總統也是我們的準總統賴清德也一直說"},{"start":478.892,"end":498.567,"text":" bicyn 將要擴建這個部桃新屋分院第二醫療大樓所以我一直不了解說從2023年那時候我們的時署長當時的次長對這個案子都說已經責無旁貸要進行到現在2024年我可不可以請部長幫我們說明一下這到底進行到哪裡了"},{"start":501.718,"end":518.966,"text":"這個是進度上面可能有一點落後,因為其實預算都已經有了,現在就是要做這個計畫書的一個審查。詳細的情形,因為今天依依福惠沒有派人過來,所以"},{"start":522.132,"end":550.841,"text":"所以我們確定這個案子已經有預算有在進行了嗎?對,可能就是計畫書的審查的這個部分的話是不是還有哪一些地方必須要做補?我想明天是不是我請醫護會的同仁大委員辦公室去跟你們做補?好,這部分也感謝部長,因為我們希望這個政策要有延續性,包含建設也是一樣。雖然我們部長在520即將要卸任,但是像我們石署長本身也是事務官,"},{"start":551.301,"end":551.441,"text":"二、國民黨黨團擬具"}]}},{"id":"152030","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152030","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db12f59c72c41c0c3dfd5e9ec982727c87755be169921a0a717e30ca135bdcca2f95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"10:09:34 - 10:20:16","影片長度":"00:10:42","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「外交部如何構建友善工作環境暨人員心理輔導具體做法」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-17"},"duration":642,"end_time":"2024-05-02T10:20:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T10:09:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":304,"blocks":[["沈委員伯洋：（10時9分）謝謝主席，有請部長，謝謝。"],["主席（馬委員文君）：請部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：沈委員好。"],["沈委員伯洋：部長好。因為今天排的題目是如何建構友善工作環境跟心理輔導，所以我當然接著，我一開始還是針對這個問題，稍微問幾個小地方。第一個，當然我覺得友善的工作環境也包含在立法院質詢，應該OK吧！我不覺得立法院常常是一個友善的環境，所以到底要怎麼去改善這件事情，可能也不是部長可以去置喙的，就有點麻煩。但無論如何，我覺得健康的問政還是以一個大方向為主，因為我們有時候在問政的時候，可以看到很多委員針對很多很小的細節，而針對小細節的時候，有時候甚至是問到日期或是問到一些精準的數字，這就不好回答。不好回答的時候，官員只要一旦沒有回答，就被剪成短影片，變成是現在國會追求流量的一個常態，所以這個反而也會造成同仁很多的壓力。","但順著這一點，我就想要知道，因為在報告這邊我有看到很多關於一些補救、一些三級預防的措施、事後的諮商等等之類的，那在前面這一邊，這個跟國防部現在面臨的狀況其實有點類似，就是現在大家在工作有時候是他的業務量太多，我們目前看到就只有在第二頁這邊，最主要是彈性工時。我想問一下，有沒有什麼其他的方式可以讓業務量減少？國防部比較容易往那個方向做，是因為國防部無關的業務實在太多了，但我不覺得外交部無關的業務有那麼多，所以有沒有可能朝像國防部以前那種精簡業務的方向，是不是能夠可以減輕同仁的一些壓力？"],["吳部長釗燮：有，我們都有一直在朝這方面努力，譬如redundancy，這個完全沒有必要的事情，我們就會試圖來減輕這些工作，以前常常長官會要求什麼報告、什麼報告等等，這也會造成同仁的困擾，現在如果能夠用口頭的方式，那就可以解決了。跟委員講一下，以前的新聞稿是一層一層、一層一層上去的，這個花了同仁很多的功夫、改來改去等等，現在通通在群組上面解決，這個就是減輕工作壓力的一種方式，的確也因為我們試用了這些新的方式，同仁的工作雖然有一些projects必須要去完成，這方面是沒有辦法減輕的，但是一般來講，現在已經比以前好很多。我剛到外交部的時候，有一些單位的同仁，他們工作到半夜，第二天一早又要來外交部，這個對我來講是一個不好的情形，我知道他們工作是很賣力的，但是如果能夠適度地幫他們減輕工作負擔，就會造成一個比較好的效果，所以像我剛剛講的工作到半夜然後第二天一早又來的這種情形現在已經減少很多了。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝部長，我覺得這個蠻重要的，因為在各個企業其實有時候都會去評估，尤其是比較中階的一些主管，他們會不會壓力過大？因為他一方面要承受上面的一些指示，然後下面的壓力鍋也是往他身上砸。在很多時候他們有一個評估的指標，就是要看是不是很多人，他其實在基層，但他已經不願意往上升了，因為他知道他往上升，反而卡在中間的時候壓力會特別大。因為之後部長別有任務，但這邊很多的局處首長可以去注意一下，就是這些要往上升遷的能量是不是有點低落，如果有低落的話，就表示有一個警訊發生，這是一個小建議。","我再繼續往下，上次有提到資訊安全跟人身安全，這是另外一件事，就是他們除了一些業務量的減少之外，他自己在外面所受到的威脅這件事情有沒有一個適當的輔導？這個在上次問過了，所以我想要延續下去，就是關於菲律賓小鎮的事情，最近我們注意到菲律賓有一個小鎮，結果有四千多名的中國留學生，他們根本不會英文，全部湧入到一個小鎮裡面，因為在那邊有美菲加強國防合作協議的設施，所以這邊就高度懷疑他們有可能是要來竊取跟美方相關的一些機密，裡面還有36名中國人想直接報名菲律賓的一個海巡單位。","我這邊會有兩個層次的問題，因為它當然不是在針對臺灣，但是在海外它可以用一樣的方式，它大量的移入，因為該國可能並沒有特別注意這件事情，結果它大量移入之後，它要取得的並不是只有美方的一些機密而已，它想要取得的是臺灣的，因為之前我在上一次還是上上次的時候有問到駭客攻擊，就是暗網上面有很多外交部的資料，結果那個禮拜還真的又跑出來一些。但是我現在要講的是這種比較與肉身有關的，它如果透過這種洗人口的方式到那一個國家，但是它去竊取的是我們外交人員的機密，這個有沒有應對的措施？因為顯然這一年之內有越來越多這樣的案例。"],["吳部長釗燮：跟委員報告一下，其實我們外交人員都有這一方面的訓練，就是涉及到如何來保護自己，而且涉及到在外交場合來捍衛我們自己國家的利益或者是國家的尊嚴，這一方面的訓練其實是非常嚴格的，譬如我們在社會上面，有時候會覺得我們外交部的同仁這都沒在管，那都沒在管，其實如果仔細去看我們外交部同仁在第一線上，面對我們國家的安全或者是尊嚴的爭取，我相信委員或者是其他知道的這些同仁也會非常地感動，但是也因為這些情形，在一些非邦交的國家，尤其是那一些比較小的國家，常常會直接面對來自中國外交人員的這種幾近於肢體的脅迫或者是壓力，以前也曾經在一個非邦交的國家受到這些來自中國外交人員的肢體攻擊，這些事情都有。我想我們的同仁在受訓，甚至外派的時候，這一方面我們都會提醒，也都會加強。"],["沈委員伯洋：因為這個對我來講是一種比較新型態的攻擊，像剛剛有提到的，譬如他們大使館的人直接針對我們的外交人員攻擊，這是他們很常做的事情，像跟監啊，我也聽過很多外交人員宿舍要一直換的。現在就像我們在講的，他們軍事的船隻會包裝成漁業的船隻，對我們做灰色地帶的侵擾，現在就變成說它在海外：第一個，它有海外的一些公安，所以它不是直接跟解放軍有關的，也不是跟國安部有關的。再來，他甚至是一般的人民，他就是中國的留學生，然後他可能會來做騷擾的動作，這種新型態的攻擊，理論上以我們立法委員的立場，我們當然是可以去做一些規範，看能不能夠做一些抵抗，但現在我們國會的組成，其實要讓我們通過這些相類似的法案，變得不是很方便，我必須要這樣講，所以就變成有時候反而是行政機關要彈性一點、要有一些SOP，就是如果遇到這種新型態的措施，我們應該怎麼辦？我在這邊也有一些應該是別的組織整理的資料，就是關於他們海外公安現在遍布的一個狀況，所以我覺得大概可以分成三個層次：第一個是跟解放軍、國安部有關的那一個種類的侵擾。第二個部分是來自海外公安的侵擾，而且公安的侵擾現在變得越來越多，這個並不是臺灣熟悉的經驗，因為我們理論上不會有這樣的一個海外公安，這反而是比較偏國際的經驗。第三個是我們剛剛講的，他完全不屬於這種官方的，他是混裝成一般人民，他是用一般人民的方式來做侵擾，而且他可能可以去接收，不管是使館，或者受到海外公安的一個指示。","我是覺得，因為目前還沒有發生，我看菲律賓這個案子應該算很新，很多在菲律賓身上發生的事情，在其他的國家像臺灣也有可能發生，當然其實現在520已經快到了，但是在這之前能不能先研擬一個快速的、行政上的辦法？如果遇到這個狀況，我們第一時間應該怎麼做？我們的新聞稿可能要怎麼發布？我們怎麼讓國際社會知道這件事情？以及我們第一線人員的保護措施是什麼？因為這一定又是影響到另外一個層次的，像今天的主題就是心理健康，所以如果能夠在520之前有一個這樣的內部方案，我覺得可能對同仁會有一些比較好的保障，這是我的一個問題。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員的提問和建議，我覺得這個建議非常的重要，的確海外的環境跟以前也不太一樣了，我們這邊就依照委員的這個建議，我們來研擬。"],["沈委員伯洋：最後一個，不好意思，時間我有一點超過了。因為最近中國保守國家秘密法的這個法令，其實2月的時候就已經知道了，然後它現在已經正式實施了，所以現在很大的一個問題是，因為現在中國國安法導致我們今天就算不是去中國，因為去中國的風險應該是變得越來越高了，很容易被抓，但也有可能我今天是去別的國家，譬如我去泰國，但是在那邊遇到解放軍了，遇到它的海外公安，所以也有可能因為這個新的法律，現在國人去別的國家，被中國針對的風險也提高了，這個會比較麻煩，因為我們的旅遊警示一直以來都不是以這個為主，今天中國在海外對臺灣人威脅的這件事情，它會不會變成我們旅遊警示的一個重要的參考標準？這個標準如果要訂的話，要怎麼做？這個我也沒有什麼特別的想法，就是想說未來我們針對這件事情，或許可能需要更深入地討論。"],["吳部長釗燮：好，我們也來作討論，的確，中國通過的這些法律和之前通過的反間諜法，對我們國人到中國去旅遊，甚至是到香港、澳門去旅遊等等，都構成相當程度的風險，我想對於我們海外的臺僑來說，他們如果有機會到中國或者是香港、澳門等國家，我想旅遊的風險是越來越高，而且不只是旅遊，甚至是求學、觀光，或者做生意等等，的確都會存在這些風險，我想我們這邊來跟相關的單位，譬如陸委會這邊來討論，看看如何來提醒我們海外的這些臺僑，去避免這些風險的產生。"],["沈委員伯洋：沒問題，我應該也會同步跟陸委會討論這件事情，謝謝部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：好，謝謝委員。"],["沈委員伯洋：謝謝主席。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請洪申翰委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-17","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","徐巧芯","洪申翰","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","林楚茵","羅智強","黃仁","林憶君"],"page_start":73,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「外交部如何構建友善工作環境暨人員心理輔導具體做法」，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1133801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.13221875,"end":2.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.25846875,"end":2.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.425968750000003,"end":105.38159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.56721875000001,"end":182.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.63534375,"end":128.98971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18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有請部長"},{"start":10.498,"end":37.211,"text":"沈委員好部長好那這個議會今天的題目這個排的是這個跟這個如何建構友善工作環境跟心理輔導所以我當然接著我一開始還是針對這個問題稍微問幾個小地方那第一個當然我覺得就是友善的工作環境也包含在立法院質詢那我不覺得我們立法院常常是一個友善的環境所以呢到底要怎麼去改善這件事情呢可能也不是部長可以去智慧的就有點麻煩"},{"start":38.371,"end":53.617,"text":"但無論如何我覺得一個健康的問政還是一個大方向為主因為我們有時候在問政的時候可以看到很多委員針對很多很小的細節針對很多細節的時候有時候甚至是問到日期或是問到一些精準的數字這些又不好回答不好回答的時候"},{"start":54.517,"end":81.113,"text":"官員只要一旦沒有回答就回去剪成短影片變成是現在國會追求流量的一個常態所以這個我反而也會造成同仁很多的壓力但我順著這一點我就想要知道說因為在這邊我有看到很多關於一些三級預防的措施事後的諮商等等之類的但在前面這一邊這個跟我們的國防部現在面臨的狀況其實有點類似就是說現在大家在工作有時候是它的業務量太多"},{"start":81.993,"end":104.926,"text":"我們目前看到就只有在第二頁這邊最主要是彈性工時那我想問一下就是有沒有什麼其他的方式呢可以讓業務量減少國防部是比較容易可以還往那個方向做是因為國防部無關的業務實在太多了但我不覺得外交部無關的業務有那麼多所以有沒有可能有朝這種以前像國防部以前那種精簡業務的方向是不是能夠可以減輕同仁的一些壓力"},{"start":105.635,"end":130.897,"text":"有,我們有都一直在朝這方面的努力比如說redundancy這個完全沒有必要的事情那我們就會試圖來解清這些工作啦那有時候那個以前常常長官會要求什麼報告什麼報告等等那這也會造成同仁的困擾那現在如果說能夠用口頭的這個方式啊就可以解決了那以前跟委員講一下以前的新聞稿是一層一層一層一層上去的"},{"start":131.297,"end":157.171,"text":"那這個花了同仁很多的這個功夫改來改去等等那現在通通在群組上面解決那這個就是減輕工作的壓力的一種方式那的確也因為我們適用了這些新的這個方式那同仁的這個工作雖然說有一些project必須要去完成那這個方面是沒有辦法減輕的但是一般來講現在已經比以前好很多我剛到外交部的時候那個有一些單位的這個同仁"},{"start":157.751,"end":182.308,"text":"他們工作到半夜那第二天一早又要來外交部那這個對我來講就是這個是不好的一個工作一個不好的這個情形那我知道我們工作是很賣力的但是工作如果說能夠適度幫他們減輕他們的這些負擔那會造成一個比較好的效果所以像我剛剛講的這種工作到半夜然後第二天一早又來的這種情形現在已經減少很多了"},{"start":183.028,"end":205.298,"text":"謝謝部長,那我覺得這個蠻重要的齁,因為在各個企業其實有時候都會去評估齁,就是說比如說尤其是比較中階的一些這個主管,他們會不會壓力過大,因為他一方面要承受上面的一些指示,然後下面的這個壓力鍋也是往他身上砸齁,那在很多時候呢,他們有一個評估的指標,就是要看是不是很多人呢,他其實在基層他已經不願意往上升了,因為他知道他往上升,反而卡在中間的時候壓力會特別大。"},{"start":205.638,"end":228.67,"text":"所以也希望因為之後這個部長別有任務當然這邊有很多的這些舉助首長可以去注意一下就是這些要往上升遷的這一個能量它是不是有點低落那如果有低落的話就表示有一個警訊發生這是一個小建議但我再繼續往下就是這個是上次有提到的就是資訊安全跟人身安全因為這是另外一件事就是說他們除了一些業務量的減少之外他自己在"},{"start":229.07,"end":229.21,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":259.07,"end":259.29,"text":"沈伯洋議員"},{"start":286.889,"end":291.173,"text":"他透過這種洗人口的方式到那一個國家但是他去竊取的是我們外交人員的機密那這個有沒有應對的措施因為這個顯然是這一年之內越來越多的這樣的案例"},{"start":306.256,"end":322.755,"text":"跟委員報告一下其實我們外交人員都有這方面的訓練就是涉及到如何來保護自己而且涉及到在這個外交場合來捍衛我們自己的這個國家的利益或者是說國家的尊嚴那這方面的訓練其實是非常嚴格的"},{"start":323.495,"end":343.655,"text":"比如像我們在社會上面有時候會覺得說我們外交部的同仁這都沒在管那都沒在管那其實如果說仔細去看我們外交部同仁在第一線上面對於我們國家的這個安全或者是尊嚴的這個爭取那可以我相信委員或者是其他知道的這些同仁也會非常的感動那但是也因為這些情形"},{"start":344.555,"end":362.06,"text":"在一些非邦交的國家尤其是那些比較小的那些國家常常會直接面對來自中國外交人員的這種激進於那個肢體的這種脅迫或者是壓力那以前也曾經在一個非邦交的國家"},{"start":363.32,"end":370.622,"text":"因為這個就是對我來講是一種比較新型態的攻擊像剛剛有提到的他直接比如說他們大使館的人直接來針對我們的外交人員做攻擊這是他們很常做的事情要跟監啊我還聽過很多外交人員宿舍要一直換的"},{"start":391.409,"end":407.934,"text":"現在呢就像我們在講他們的這個軍事的船隻會包裝成漁業的船隻對我們做灰色期待的侵擾現在就變成說他在海外第一個他有海外的一些公安嘛所以他有他不是直接跟解放軍有關的也不是跟國安部有關的然後再來就是他甚至就是完全一般人民"},{"start":408.334,"end":434.593,"text":"他就是中國的留學生然後他可能來做騷擾那這種新型態呢如果理論上以我們立法委員的立場我們當然是可以去做一些規範然後看能不能夠說做一些抵抗但現在的我們的國會的這一個組成其實要讓我們通過這些相類似的法案變得不是很方便必須要這樣講所以呢就變成說有時候反而是行政機關要彈性要有一些SOP就是如果遇到這種新型態的措施我們應該怎麼辦"},{"start":435.874,"end":455.982,"text":"所以希望呢,因為我在後面這邊也有整理了一些這個這個目前他們這一個不是我整理對不起這個應該是這個是別的這個組織做整理就是關於他們海外公安現在遍布的一個狀況所以我覺得大概可以分成三個層次就是第一個是跟解放軍跟國安部有關的那一個種類的情擾然後第二個部分是這種海外公安的情擾"},{"start":456.522,"end":482.239,"text":"而且公安的侵擾現在變得越來越多而且這個並不是一個台灣熟悉的經驗是因為我們理論上不會有這樣的一個海外公安這反而是比較偏國際的經驗然後第三個就是我們剛剛講的他完全不屬於這種官方的他是混裝成一般人民但是用一般人民的方式來做侵擾而且他可能可以去接受不管是使館或者受到海外公安的一個指示那我是覺得因為目前還沒有我看菲律賓這個案子應該算行"},{"start":482.859,"end":511.639,"text":"那很多在菲律賓身上發生的事情在其他的國家針對台灣有可能發生所以我覺得是不是有可能就是當然現在其實520已經快到了但是在這個之前能不能先研擬一個快速的那種行政上的一個辦法如果遇到這個狀況我們第一時間應該怎麼做我們的新聞稿可能要怎麼發布我們怎麼讓國際社會知道這件事情然後以及我們第一線人員的保護措施是什麼因為這一定又是影響到另外一個層次的今天的主題就是心理健康所以我覺得如果說能夠在"},{"start":512.299,"end":513.96,"text":"謝謝委員的提問和建議這個建議非常的重要的確在海外的這個環境跟以前也不太一樣的那我們這邊就依照委員的這個建議我們來擬"},{"start":531.151,"end":552.905,"text":"最後一個很快速的很不好意思這個時間我有點超過就是因為最近這個國家秘密法保守國家秘密法就是這一個中國的這個法令他其實二月的時候就已經知道了他現在已經正式實施了所以現在很大的一個問題就是說因為現在中國國安這一個法律導致就算我們今天不是去中國因為去中國的風險應該變越來越高了很容易被抓"},{"start":553.445,"end":569.287,"text":"但也有可能我今天是去別的國家比如說我去泰國但是那邊遇到解放軍的遇到他的海外公安所以也有可能因為這個新的法律現在國人甚至去別的國家被中國針對的風險也提高了那這個會比較麻煩是因為我們的旅遊警示一直以來都是不是以這個為主那"},{"start":570.689,"end":587.719,"text":"我們有沒有可能今天中國在海外對台灣人的威脅這件事情它會不會變成在我們旅遊警示重要的一個參考的標準那這個標準如果要定的話要怎麼做這個我也沒有什麼特別的想法那就想說未來我們針對這件事情或許可能需要更深入的一個討論"},{"start":588.599,"end":614.011,"text":"好,我們也來做討論的確那個中國通過的這些法律和之前通過的那個反間諜法對我們國人到中國去旅遊甚至是到香港澳門去旅遊等等的都構成相當程度的這個風險那我想對於我們海外的這個台橋來說他們如果說有機會到這個中國或者是香港澳門等等的那我想這個旅遊的這個風險"},{"start":615.071,"end":615.451,"text":"沈伯洋委員"}]}},{"id":"152027","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152027","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1839041cc050c5d90e12ebde737ab3c1955be169921a0a717816928265b3f05e65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林岱樺","委員發言時間":"10:04:20 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10:18:19","影片長度":"00:13:59","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員柯志恩等17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（詢答及處理，委員郭國文等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-10"},"duration":839,"end_time":"2024-05-02T10:18:19+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T10:04:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":253,"blocks":[["林委員岱樺：（10時4分）有請部長。"],["主席：我們再請王部長。"],["林委員岱樺：在正式質詢之前，本席想知道部長什麼時候要針對我高雄市林園區中油工業區南方的中汕地區擴編工業區要進行的協議價購土地案開會？"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，這一個部分，我其實有先跟中油、國營司這邊交換意見，現在我們的新四輕因為院裡面還有一些問題在詢問我們……"],["林委員岱樺：你覺得這個案子應該要跟四輕更新掛鉤嗎？"],["王部長美花：因為對中油來講……"],["林委員岱樺：你有沒有把上次本席所提到的這一塊土地是因為工業區下去之後所造成的污染，導致農地不能農用，要做相關的工廠也不行，即使要做土地變更，把私有土地變更做工廠也不行，聯外道路也受限。你現在還是沒有把我的話聽進去，把人民的心聲聽進去，你在跟我講中油，你覺得要按照中油的意思，那你去當中油董事長算了，何必當部長呢？所以，你什麼時候開會？"],["王部長美花：我會再跟中油、國營司來討論……"],["林委員岱樺：你自己認不認同這塊土地應該得到補償？"],["王部長美花：它有它比較特殊的情形，我們會……"],["林委員岱樺：需不需要得到補償？它是工業區下去才造成這樣的，如果你連這個都不敢答，你怎麼講社會企業啊？你怎麼敢在本席這邊講ESG啊？你這個部長憑什麼？你如果連一個社會企業，你只會照著行政院給你的稿唸，那你不用來當部長啊！今天我是講人民的心聲，因為工業區下去所造成的環境污染，林園工業區多久了？來！回答！下面的人給部長訊息吧！"],["林組長怡妏：林園工業區大概開發將近快40年了。"],["林委員岱樺：40年了，部長，40年的工業區造成人民土地的污染，而且是閒置，安全沒有產值，你覺得這不應該負起社會責任嗎？中油不應該負起社會責任嗎？工業區不該負起該有的社會責任嗎？請回答是或不是，如果是，那就應該要繼續設法，好好的認定這塊土地應該要做怎麼樣的一個補償作為，要擴編工業區，然後再比照林園區五福里的13到17鄰做相關的協議價購，我說這不是個案，這有前例，請回答！部長回答！"],["王部長美花：這個部分委員很關心，我們確實針對這個地區有沒有可能利用、要怎麼利用、會碰到哪些瓶頸，之前也有一些討論，我想委員很關心這塊地，我再跟同仁確認一次。"],["林委員岱樺：你心裡要有社會企業這個價值，社會企業價值在做什麼，即使最後是由中油來協議價購，這對它也是ESG啊，怎麼不會是ESG的項目呢？這也是一個鼓勵的方式啊！部長，你做了4年，難得有長官願意挺你挺4年欸！回答吧！有下去會勘，剛才陳亭妃委員說，因為你下去會勘，所以今天你要做會議的處理，本席這個也請你去會勘過了，去年也會勘過了，然後也質詢過了，今天再次質詢，那你什麼時候再討論？我要正式的會議結論。"],["王部長美花：我再跟同仁……"],["林委員岱樺：難道你開會都不用有正式會議結論的喔？都可以默默自己處理喔？"],["王部長美花：沒有，我們經濟部本來自己就有非常多的會議……"],["林委員岱樺：本席也很多會議啊！我們召委也很多會議，立法院有好多會議啊！你覺得你這個話大家聽得進去嗎？所以你根本不想處理是嗎？"],["王部長美花：也不是，所以委員問了我也……"],["林委員岱樺：所以你什麼時候開會？直接講，我今天站在這邊，我就是逼你，你什麼時候開這個會議、再一次正式開會議，討論社會企業的ESG要怎麼做、討論社會企業對於環境衝擊該有什麼作為？"],["王部長美花：我下個禮拜找一個時間，跟同仁來……"],["林委員岱樺：下禮拜五前喔！好，正式會議紀錄出來，會議紀錄要有，不做黑箱作業的，如果你私下討論那個叫做黑箱作業，這是本席有公文給你，兩次，包括上次跟這次的，也有下去會勘的，所以我再問一次，你什麼時候再召開會議討論？"],["王部長美花：我下個禮拜會找一個時間跟同仁討論。"],["林委員岱樺：現在進行今天的正式質詢，經濟景氣的寒冬，政府如何因應？這個前提是什麼？我們一直說台積電，臺灣是以出口導向的國家，所以我們除了電子、資通訊、半導體相關的產業一枝獨秀的出口，其他的產業其實是很辛苦的。我們來看全球經濟的展望以及中小企業面臨景氣的困境是什麼？我們的政府有提出了產業升級跟全球趨勢相關的方案，但是問題在哪裡？本席有具體的要求。","全球經濟的展望這都是公開的資訊，在年初的時候，公視新聞網也有講到世界銀行針對2024年的初估全球經濟成長率，會從去年的2.6%降到2.4%，呈現連3年的衰退趨勢。臺灣就是以出口為導向，許多產業在去年是連續好幾季都出現出口訂單衰退，除了剛才講的資通訊、電子以及半導體相關產業是一枝獨秀之外，其他的出口訂單是衰退的，甚至部分員工都有放無薪假，放無薪假不是本席講的，是勞動部年初的新聞稿，就有7大產業是放無薪假的，這個上次質詢我有提供出來。","市場憂心本國的狀況，全球展望的經濟展望是這樣的走緩，以出口為導向的臺灣，2024（今）年是否還能夠保3呢？全年度是否保3呢？要提醒的是俄烏戰爭、以巴戰爭等戰爭持續中，如果戰爭的衝突擴大，一定會對全球經濟造成強烈的衝擊，屆時臺灣出口訂單也很可能會持續衰退，出口訂單如果衰退持續擴大，經濟部如何讓經濟成長率能夠全年保3，或者降低衰退的幅度？","我們中小企業的困境是什麼？我就以台經院資料庫的兩張圖，這是也公開訊息，第一張是金屬製品，這是我們高雄市非常指標的產業──扣件業，我就以金屬產業當中這十年來，中小企業金屬製造業在2014到2020年的景氣一直是屬於低迷的，一直到2021年的時候達到景氣高峰了，景氣分數是16.85，景氣的燈號是黃紅燈，呈揚升的狀態。2021年到達高峰之後，因為遭逢COVID-19，疫情在短短數個月蔓延全球120個國家，造成全球經濟嚴重衝擊，而各產業的經濟是難以估算它的損失，導致2022、2023年景氣再度轉為低迷。","另外這張圖是相關的景氣訊息圖，對應剛才扣件業的景氣訊息是一樣的，疫情過後，因缺工、缺料、原物料的上漲、貸款利息的調升等各種的因素，導致成本高漲，許多中小企業有苦說不出，也只能苦撐，甚至關廠，對於國內產業遇到的經濟景氣低迷，經濟部你們對中小企業做了什麼事呢？爬梳一下，疫情過後全球產業朝向這樣子的目標在邁進，即低碳減排、智慧化管理、生產設備自動化，而且深化ESG的經營理念，產業升級已經是全球的趨勢，勢在必行。而產業升級，它要做什麼呢？人事成本、研發技術、購買機器設備，都需要投入相當多的資源成本。而現在中小企業遇到什麼問題？你上面要朝向世界趨勢當中所提出的補助方案，我們中小企業遇到什麼問題？有三個，第一個、缺乏撰寫計畫書的專業人才，第二個、沒有足夠人力跟能力進行研發，第三個、機器設備過於昂貴，因為要升級啊！所以這是業者無法順利推動產業升級的主要原因，本席希望你把這三個原因看好、聽好、記好。","業者一直苦於接不到訂單，又要推動產業升級，中小企業是臺灣的經濟命脈，但資本不如大企業的雄厚，需要政府的大力支持。現在你們針對中小企業，雖然有以大帶小的補助方案（產業低碳科技應用補助計畫），你們有這個計畫，112到114這3年補助38億，平均一年是12億，今年是最後一年，只剩11億。另外，你們針對中小企業還有一個方案叫產業創新經費，才多少錢？1億啊！中小企業有數百萬家，一百五十幾萬啦！僧多粥少，一百五十幾萬是包括整個科技業，當然中小企業占了九成，所以僧多粥少的情況之下，這樣的計畫是什麼？大帶小，部長，要讓你知道，魔鬼就出在這個細節當中，你這個所謂的38億是大帶小，要嘛是1間大的帶4間小的，要嘛就1間大的帶10間小的。部長，如果這個案子下去，你覺得誰會拿最多？當然是大的啊！那個1帶4的4、1帶10的10，根本連麵包屑都拿不到啊！通常都是規模較大的公司拿到較多的資源，剩餘的小公司真的看得到、吃不到。再加上學者專家的學理專業審查相對實務是有落差的，造成資訊不對等，審查機制嚴謹固然是好，卻會讓中小企業望之卻步，如何建立一個有效的審查機制？","本席建議補助從寬、查核從嚴，我們現在是補助從嚴、查核也從嚴，所以根本沒有辦法補助我們中小企業者啊！幾乎西半部……包括我們召委也是都對中小企業很著力、很支持的，臺中也好、高雄也好，他們的工具機、我們的扣件產業都會遇到這個問題啊！所以本席有具體的要求，為真的務實提供中小企業升級及度過寒冬，我請你們檢討產業低碳科技應用的補助，雖然今年剩下11億，建議直接補助中小企業啦！不要再以大帶小了，讓政府的補助、租稅優化等方案，讓中小企業直接受益怎麼在ESG減排、智慧化製造的鏈結能夠直接的提升。第二個，也請經濟部重新檢討中小企業申請科技專案的審查機制，應該以興利為主、防弊為輔，要聽好，興利為主、防弊為輔，你們現在是怎麼做？其中針對設備的使用費，你們竟然是用直線折舊60個月，依計畫使用期限給予補助，這個講起來有點小複雜，你們回去問清楚……"],["主席：好，林委員……"],["林委員岱樺：這個邏輯是什麼？就是視中小企業為小偷啦！百分百的防弊而扼殺了興利的初衷，中小企業根本不可能來申請這樣的計畫。所以在這邊我請你們研議，改為中小企業購買機器設備，朝總額的比例百分之五十直接補助；如果它是買國產化的設備，朝全額補助，以帶動臺灣整體的經濟。部長，您稍微回應就好。"],["主席：部長，再請你書面資料答復，詳實跟委員說明，謝謝。"],["王部長美花：委員提的相關細節……"],["主席：請你書面資料再答復給委員，謝謝。"],["王部長美花：好。"],["主席：接下來我們請鄭正鈐委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":510,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-10","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","賴士葆","邱議瑩","張智倫","郭國文","陳亭妃","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","邱志偉","鍾佳濱","賴瑞隆","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","張嘉郡","黃國昌","陳超明","牛煦庭","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":419,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員柯志恩等\n17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬\n具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中\n小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業\n發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例\n部分條文修正草案」案；七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正\n草案」案；八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及\n第四十條條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、\n第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展\n條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例\n部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133801_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.08159375,"end":1.43159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.334093750000001,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.03846875,"end":7.101593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.965968750000002,"end":17.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.42909375,"end":24.769718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.63034375,"end":33.00471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.00471875,"end":33.072218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.392843750000004,"end":33.44346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.44346875,"end":44.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.01971875,"end":50.08221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.57596875,"end":49.98096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.08221875,"end":50.11596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.11596875,"end":50.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.43659375,"end":87.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.94534375,"end":90.02534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.02534375,"end":90.16034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.91096875000001,"end":100.09971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.19721875,"end":97.23096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.28159375,"end":97.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.58034375000001,"end":106.14096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.58846875,"end":120.33284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.60284375,"end":134.30534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.13221875000002,"end":136.51596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":138.11909375000002,"end":139.28346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.24534375000002,"end":142.64159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":143.83971875,"end":152.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.62721875,"end":165.18659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.37221875,"end":186.85409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.49534375000002,"end":188.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.26284375,"end":190.48221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.29221875000002,"end":191.95034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.84471875,"end":214.96784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.28909375,"end":211.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":214.96784375000001,"end":219.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.08096875,"end":226.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":227.47221875000002,"end":229.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.28596875000002,"end":232.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.10846875000001,"end":236.06159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":238.57596875000002,"end":250.70909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.77221875,"end":252.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":253.37534375,"end":257.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":254.42159375000003,"end":254.99534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.21846875,"end":260.53034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":261.62721875,"end":263.85471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":262.36971875,"end":264.46221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.52534375,"end":265.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.82909375,"end":265.86284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.86284375,"end":266.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.89659375,"end":270.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":270.03096875,"end":278.70471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.51096875,"end":284.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":284.83034375,"end":287.63159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":287.63159375000004,"end":289.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":288.00284375,"end":289.65659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.28096875,"end":292.17096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.52096875,"end":294.44909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.03971875,"end":296.64284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.11534375,"end":298.24596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":298.73534375,"end":300.43971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.84471875,"end":305.94096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.97034375000004,"end":311.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":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bicyncy一時是屬於第一名的一直到2021的時候達到景氣高峰了有了這個景氣分數是16.85景氣的這個燈號是黃紅燈呈陽生的好2021年之後到達高峰之後呐呈現的"},{"start":492.641,"end":504.027,"text":"會遭封COVID-19,所以疫情短短數個月蔓延全球120個國家,造成全球經濟嚴重衝擊,而各產業的經濟是難以估算損失的,導致2022、2023景氣再度轉為低迷。"},{"start":509.309,"end":529.756,"text":"好,那這個的另外這張圖呢也對應了這個是相關的景氣訊息圖對應剛才的這個扣件業的這個景氣的訊息是一樣的。疫情過後因缺工缺料原料物原物料的上漲貸款利息的調升等各種的因素導致成本高漲許多中小企業。"},{"start":530.896,"end":535.238,"text":"有苦說不出也只能苦稱甚至觀察對於國內產業遇到的經濟景氣低迷經濟部你們對中小企業做了什麼事呢?好,爬書一下你們呢這個也針對呢這個疫情過後全球產業啊"},{"start":547.845,"end":551.428,"text":"朝向這樣的目標在邁進,低碳減排,智慧化的管理,生產設備自動化,而且深化ESG的經營理念。產業升級已經是全球的趨勢勢在必行,而產業升級它要做什麼呢?"},{"start":564.298,"end":581.156,"text":"adequate 人事成本研發技術購買機器設備都需要投入相當多的資源成本而現在中小企業遇到什麼問題你上面要朝向這個世界趨勢當中所提出的補助方案我們中小企業遇到什麼問題三個第一個缺乏撰寫計畫書的專業人才"},{"start":586.101,"end":601.57,"text":"adequa沒有足夠人力跟人力進行研發。第三個機器設備過於昂貴了因為要升級啊。那所以呢這是業者無法順利推動產業升級的主要原因。這是本席希望你把這三個原因看好聽好記好。"},{"start":603.371,"end":627.608,"text":"好,業者一直苦於接不到訂單,又要推動產業升級。中小企業是臺灣的經濟命脈。資本是不如大企業的雄厚,需要政府的大力支持。好,現在你們針對中小企業,雖然有以大代小的補助方案,產業低碳科技應用補助計畫。好,你們有這個計畫。這三年112到114補助38,平均一年是"},{"start":628.268,"end":638.2,"text":""},{"start":639.901,"end":661.513,"text":"好,那這個呢,中小企業呢,是百萬加一百五十幾萬啊。那增多、周少,通常一百五十幾萬是包括這個整個科技業。那當然這個中小企業佔了百分之九成啊。好,那所以呢,這麼規模,這個增多、周少的情況之下,這樣的計畫是什麼?大、大小。部長要讓你知道,魔鬼就出在這個細節當中。"},{"start":667.338,"end":672.147,"text":"你這個所謂的38億是大帶小,要嘛是一間大的帶四間小的,要嘛就一間大的帶十間小的。"},{"start":676.547,"end":699.531,"text":"部長,如果這個案子下去,你覺得誰會誰會拿最多?當然是大的啊!那個一大袋四的四、一袋十的那個十根本連麵包學都拿不到啊!是,通常都是規模較大的公司拿到較多的資源,剩餘的小公司真的看得到吃不到。再加上審查機制,學者專家的學理專業的審查,對於實務"},{"start":702.732,"end":715.088,"text":"厲有落差的,造成資訊不對等。好,審查機制嚴謹固然是好,卻會讓我中小企業望知卻步。如何建立一個有效的審查機制本席建議補助從寬,查核從嚴。我們現在是補助從嚴,查核也從嚴。"},{"start":721.716,"end":742.416,"text":"所以根本沒有辦法補助我們中小企業者啊。幾乎西半部啊,包括我們昭緯,這個我們都是最很重視,像昭緯也是都對中小企業很著力、很支持的。台中也好、高雄也好,他們的供給區、我們的構建產業都會遇到這個問題啊。好,所以本席有具體的要求。"},{"start":747.495,"end":772.804,"text":"為務實提供中小企業升級及度過寒冬我請你們檢討產業低碳科技應用的補助雖然今年剩下11億建議直接補助中小企業不要再以大代小了讓政府的補助租稅優惠的方案讓中小企業直接受益怎麼在ESG減排製造的鏈接能夠直接的提升最後第二個"},{"start":773.624,"end":796.784,"text":"gines部也請你們重新檢討中小企業申請科技專案的審查機制應該以心力為主防弊為輔要聽好心力為主防弊為輔你們現在是怎麼做以設備其中你們很多項其中針對設備的使用費你們既然是用直線折就60個月好那一計劃使用期限給予補助好這個講起來有點小複雜你們回去問清楚"},{"start":799.667,"end":802.43,"text":"這個合計是什麼?就是視中小企業為小偷啦。百分百的防弊而扼殺了心理的初衷。中小企業根本不可能來申請這樣的計畫。所以在這邊我請你們研議中小企業直接改為中小企業購買機器設備朝總額的比例50%直接補助。"},{"start":819.591,"end":824.295,"text":"那如果他是買國產化的設備,朝全額補助一帶動台灣整體的經濟。"}]}},{"id":"152026","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152026","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db187d0ad12d430bec6d575e50b9cd8685a55be169921a0a717a7050ee30736cb025ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱鎮軍","委員發言時間":"10:07:15 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原來是新冠是第五級"},{"start":114.201,"end":139.819,"text":"adequ五類的傳染病。那因為到後來的話,它的致病率以及它的致重症率是降低的。所以我們就把它調為四級。這全世界都是這樣子。我雖然不在醫界啦,但是也有在醫界的同事跟朋友,包括很多醫療團體,他們對於今天要審的修改案都非常的支持。你個人的看法呢?"},{"start":141.507,"end":164.932,"text":"當然以各種不同的團體來看一屆一定是支持這個是沒話講因為他可以讓他的收入增加但是他的影響這必須要好好去做討論選前你看一下我們看一下你說過健保點子一元一點草野同意就沒有難度這句話的意思是不是表示認同"},{"start":166.246,"end":168.368,"text":" bicyn 建保典值的部分有沒有修改的部分?"},{"start":168.368,"end":172.331,"text":"bicyn 建保典值的部分有沒有修改的部分?"},{"start":172.331,"end":177.215,"text":"bicyn 建保典值的部分有沒有修改的部分?"},{"start":177.215,"end":183.28,"text":"bicyn 建保典值的部分有沒有修改的部分?"},{"start":188.024,"end":192.827,"text":"閱讀者:「反對的人覺得醫護就該犧牲奉獻。你們都喜歡說有政府勞保就不會倒。現在就變成有政府健保就不會倒。」"},{"start":211.345,"end":215.109,"text":"łecum yi gai dao ding jiao kui"},{"start":233.739,"end":237.261,"text":"這是本人吧?這是本人嗎?應該不是AI啦?"},{"start":252.178,"end":273.029,"text":"議長剛剛那個是本人吧?應該不是AI做的吧?那是真的有說過還是詐騙?應該是有說過。所以賴清德是總統候選人的時候,到處去講健保點數要保固在0.9以上,目標要到1.1元。那當時衛福部也配合啊,不是嗎?"},{"start":274.636,"end":277.718,"text":"二、國民黨黨團擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":292.065,"end":312.866,"text":"我已經剛剛有提到過,我在這17天之內的話,給我能夠掌握的資源,就是沒有辦法去執行這個。不是,就是說當時你不知道,部長你能不能留任,現在知道了520你沒有辦法留任之後,你就是故意要找,就故意找這個資源嗎?不是故意喔,這不是故意,這本來就是權責。新的部長。那你當時為什麼不講呢?"},{"start":314.794,"end":340.655,"text":"為什麼當時總統府選人開這種政見的時候你們自己不提出來?我沒有被問到我怎麼可能會去做這種事。這不就跟我們選後調漲店家一樣嗎?通通都是選票的考量。通通都是為了選舉。不是啊,我跟委員報告啦。今天如果是我主這個其證的話我當然可以來想辦法還是我請教部長就是說"},{"start":341.956,"end":365.333,"text":"現在你們提出的意見是新政府的意見?就是選後不算了嗎?沒有沒有,就是我們現在的意見,衛福部的意見,我們現在。現在,所以跟以後沒有關係?新政府也許他有新的財源能夠去規劃出來。我們就今天5月2號行政院要通過追加預算,撥補台電1000億,這個資金來源有沒有明確?"},{"start":370.486,"end":375.052,"text":" bicyn 現在健保也點數不到我們講的0.9元是不是也要用公務預算?"},{"start":386.747,"end":412.128,"text":"為什麼為什麼我們要這個臺電的就可以用公務預算我們健保的呢就要就要調漲我們的健保費這個意思是這樣子臺電這因為有這個稅計剩餘所以他給他一千億做這一個調漲健保的話如果按照今天的法案通過的話是每年要那就必須要看政府是不是每年都有那麼多的稅計剩餘這個不確定"},{"start":416.31,"end":418.373,"text":"我們是要讓醫療體系有法有據。你這樣說違反財政紀律,你要不要看看你自己的報告寫過什麼東西?"},{"start":429.258,"end":445.128,"text":" bicyn 您的報告裡傳遞的訊息就是醫護就該犧牲奉獻來表達,來達成你們的政治目的嗎?不是,這必須要各種的配套,而不是單單一位小粉去調整就可以做得到的。"},{"start":451.665,"end":456.93,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":468.251,"end":496.578,"text":""},{"start":496.658,"end":507.809,"text":"你們報告說持續健保收支進行檢討研議本席也相信你們有研議現在就請你告訴大家你們對於針對健保點數你們研議的怎麼樣"},{"start":510.614,"end":535.808,"text":"這也是根本報告,就今天的報告裡面,如果是0.95的話,我們每年就公務預算必須要支出700億。如果是1.1億的話,就1150億。好啦,我是希望啦,你們在做決定的時候,一定要多方的考慮,好不好?當然,我也希望說這個法要通過要多方的考慮。好啦,謝謝部長。"},{"start":538.756,"end":540.032,"text":"好謝謝邱委員"}]}},{"id":"152025","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152025","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1dc39fd3491919df90cbbe991ada1931c55be169921a0a717bd02ad7df8a93d275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳沛憶","委員發言時間":"10:04:47 - 10:15:59","影片長度":"00:11:12","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答)【4月29日及5月2日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":672,"end_time":"2024-05-02T10:15:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T10:04:47+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":345,"blocks":[["吳委員沛憶：（10時4分）謝謝主席。我請體育署鄭世忠署長。"],["主席：請署長。"],["鄭署長世忠：委員早！"],["吳委員沛憶：署長好。全中運剛落幕，開幕式跟閉幕式你都有出席，你覺得今年全中運順利嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：比起去年好多了。"],["吳委員沛憶：我說應該在順利與不順利之間，今年我們有很多選手都破紀錄創佳績，但是比賽的順利與否不只看成績，尤其這是學生的運動會，安全也很重要。"],["鄭署長世忠：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：今年我看到了很多的風波，因為在臺北市舉辦，所以我特別關心。包括我們的游泳選手因為跳水被禁賽，有女性游泳選手的泳衣集體被偷竊，有去報案，當然人有抓到了，我們的跆拳道選手昏倒，在臺北田徑場發生看台失火冒煙，當時的情況是看台一邊在冒煙還一邊在比賽，我們選手的穩定性及抗壓性非常強，他說他當時看到看台在冒煙，但他還是堅持往前衝，最後還破了紀錄。我覺得比賽雖然順利，選手沒有受到影響，這個是我們的幸運，但是我們應該回頭來檢討比賽的安全性能不能夠事先預防籌備，讓它能夠更順暢，所以我想請教一下，尤其是當時發生火災的時候，我比較疑惑的是去滅火的是教練跟同學，我們現場沒有安排工作人員嗎？"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員，第一時間，因為有教練在旁邊，他們就即時反應，剛好旁邊也有消防的滅火器，所以他就直接處理。"],["吳委員沛憶：我們有沒有對看台的觀眾做引導疏散？工作人員有沒有去引導？"],["鄭署長世忠：那個時候因為範圍不算很大，當時那些觀眾有往旁邊移動，消防員其實也就在旁邊，因為我們消防車在現場……"],["吳委員沛憶：是，這就是我們的幸運所在，因為人數剛好沒有很多……"],["鄭署長世忠：是，然後也報告委員……"],["吳委員沛憶：但是照理說，這種大型的賽事，我們應該是有疏散引導的計畫，我們有沒有按照SOP在走？有關這個部分，在整體賽事結束後一定會有結案報告，我希望體育署要特別去看。"],["鄭署長世忠：是，也跟委員報告一下，臺北市的部分的確是有計畫書，我們在6月會有檢討會議，臺北田徑場剛好有一個防爆溝的設計，隔開了跑道跟觀眾席，所以這部分對選手當下是沒有影響的。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，有關泳衣失竊的部分，怎麼會有外部人士可以進入到選手休息區？人員的管制也是一樣……"],["鄭署長世忠：報告委員……"],["吳委員沛憶：署長，我今天想要提醒你的是，我希望你去看一下我們的結案報告，我們相關的SOP有沒有確實的訂定？然後有沒有按照計畫來走？我希望明年的比賽、後年的比賽能夠越來越順暢，好不好？"],["鄭署長世忠：這部分我已經也提醒全大運臺中市政府這邊，請他們幫忙。"],["吳委員沛憶：好，謝謝。署長請回。","接下來我請教育部潘文忠部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長，一樣要跟你討論我們非常關心的校園性平事件，我們非常的痛心，高雄發生了一名校長偷拍女童的案件，目前看起來，這個行為是發生在校外，但還在調查當中，目前高雄市教育局也很快做了處置，即刻解聘，也宣布永不錄用。我們在校園對性平當然是零容忍，但是我比較擔憂的是，因為我看到監察院今年3月的一份報告，就是南投過去也有一名劉育成校長，在任教的34年間，長期利用家長的信任感以及學生之間的權勢關係，發生了對未成年學生性侵害及性騷擾的行為，後來調查後發現他的犯行不只在一所學校，也不只在一個縣市，曾經在他任教當中的4所學校、超過10位受害者，案件發生在南投也發生在新北，請問教育部有沒有去提醒高雄市教育局，除了這一所學校之外，過去的相關場所都要去調查？"],["潘部長文忠：是，跟委員報告，這次就是因為有幾個事件，包含剛才委員提到南投的事件，在這次修性平法的過程當中就有特別去提醒，要做到不是單一的，如果是任教已久或是有任教他校，必須要啟動整個比較普遍調查的機制。這次的這個事件，國教署這邊也提醒高雄市可能要留意，因為這一位校長可能在過往有服務過或有沒有其他……"],["吳委員沛憶：請務必要去叮嚀、去落實。"],["潘部長文忠：是，我們也會因循，因為性平法的修訂就是希望不要一個個案就只處理這個案子的調查……"],["吳委員沛憶：沒錯，去年性平法修法過後還有一件很重要的事，假設現在已經畢業的學生，過去倘若發生過相關的情事，一樣可以來進行申訴。我希望我們教育部及教育局對於這個資訊要讓更多的大眾知道，要來協助受害者。"],["潘部長文忠：好，委員，這個我想應該要有非常堅定的立場，這個部分也會依照這個方向來處理。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。接下來要請問的是剛剛有討論到的，在我們偏鄉地區教育行政負擔的問題，這六年以來，因為我們有基本法的上路，其實我們對偏鄉地區的教育，不管是資源的投入還是執行的運作，讓我們有了法制化的基礎，我們也要持續關心在現場的教師。我們的行政減輕是持續在做，這個我知道，我們有小校盟，用區域的方式來進行，但我看到聯合報有一個調查，在2023年，81%的偏鄉教師反映行政工作對教學是有造成負擔，有近5成的教師表示因為這樣的行政負擔會影響到他的留任意願。所以對於偏鄉地區這些小校的行政減輕，我們還有沒有什麼樣作法？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，這個確實，每一所學校，不管大或小，常常被要求要填報的資料及要做的例行事務其實是相近的，尤其是面對到有一些採購的事情，幾乎大家都要走同樣一套。"],["吳委員沛憶：部長，你看喔，像聯合報這個報導裡面還有一個案例是花蓮縣瑞穗鄉舞鶴國小的一位老師，他同時要兼任教務主任、學務主任，他也是輔導主任，然後那一年這個學校的工友退休，校長還要來兼工友的工作，我們在學校裡面的行政編制有沒有辦法精簡？針對這種偏鄉地區的小校。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，以目前的規劃來說，我跟國教署這邊的討論，因為一校一定要增置同樣的類型，其實現在我們有將近三分之一是規模非常小的學校，所以在行政減量這件事情上，我們除了透過數位的模式真的可以做一些減量，另外一個，我覺得應該是用區域去支持個別小型的學校，所以未來在7月30日前，也就是下個學年度前，我也請署長要來增置這種區域資源中心的人力，由他來幫忙，舉例來說，譬如這個行政區域內有10所學校，有一個資源中心，我們就會去律定哪些事情由資源中心來代辦，不要每個學校都辦，這個就我長期的觀察，以及這幾年我們推的幾個大型的這種計畫……"],["吳委員沛憶：我們目前的制度運行下來，我想是有成效的，只是成效還不夠快。"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["吳委員沛憶：所以我想是可以多管齊下。"],["潘部長文忠：這個區域資源中心應該要更普遍啦。"],["吳委員沛憶：像我們國教院自己的智庫有做出一個報告，建議50人以下的小校可以做行政組織的精簡，所以對於這個部分，我希望國教署還是可以繼續去研議有沒有多管齊下的方式。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，去年國教法修法裡面，其實對我們過去習慣的教、訓、總等等的這一些，其實在這次法修是比較有給彈性，但是模式上我是建議由教育部提出一些規範給他們做參考，也就是說，你不要什麼都要做，所以一個人就要兼剛才委員說的……"],["吳委員沛憶：我們偏鄉地區的老師抱著很大的熱情，我們希望……"],["潘部長文忠：編制都有了，所以這個要兼、那個要兼，反過來應該說處室不要跟大型學校一樣的多，組也是啦……"],["吳委員沛憶：是，因為其實需求是不同的。"],["潘部長文忠：所以我想在組織上，法已經有這樣的彈性，我們也許可以做一些規範或是一些指引，讓這些學校也可以有個依循，他們在做內部溝通也比較容易。"],["吳委員沛憶：這個我覺得非常的重要。"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["吳委員沛憶：最後我跟主席借一分鐘，我想要關心的是我們特教班的教師，因為我們現在的趨勢是普特融合，可是在臺北市，因為我們常收到很多特教生的個案，而且我發現有越來越多的情況，因為是滿額班，所以他必須要跨越原先的學區去就讀，我有去看了一下我們的數字，這幾年可以說我們的特教班是在凍漲，以臺北市為例，這5年來特教班的數量是一樣的，可是必須要安置到集中式特教班的學生這5年來增加了166人。也就是說，平均每一個集中式特教班的人數，小學增加的最多，平均每班從6.84人上升到7.31人，幼兒園就是一直都很緊繃，大部分都是在8人。","我們在看這個師資的時候，我在想，現在是總量控管，可是經過你們的評估，要安置到集中式資源班的學生數量就是在增加的，可是對於班數你們用總控管把它凍漲不動，變成在每一班裡面的人數越來越多。以臺北市來說，我們收到的個案，他就必須要跨越到學區以外的學校去就讀，也就是說，他每天上課的交通時間、身心負擔都增加很多，臺北市都如此了，何況是偏鄉地區的學校。因為我目前沒有看到資料報告，所以希望教育部可以提供給我，就是關於偏鄉地區集中式資源班的這些學生跨區就讀的情形有多少？我知道我們有一些交通費、相關的復康巴士等等的協助，可是我要說的是，除了通勤的時間跟資源，應該要協助減輕他們身心的負擔，應該也要達到學生的平權，我覺得區域性的均衡是很重要的，所以我希望要好好去考慮一下，那我要先拿到這個報告數字。"],["潘部長文忠：好。剛才委員提的這個，我簡要回答，其餘的再用書面說明。如果經過專業的鑑定，是屬於該進入到這種我們說的特教專班，剛才我跟署長說過，這個一定要確立，不是因為用一個限制，如果有縣市執行這方面，我們應該要跟他們溝通，以鑑定為準。"],["吳委員沛憶：是。"],["潘部長文忠：當然普特融合是一個國際的趨勢……"],["吳委員沛憶：對，我現在要講的就是已經鑑定後要安置到集中式資源班。"],["潘部長文忠：對，所以前提是，不能說我不管你多少，我就是給你這個，這不合理……"],["吳委員沛憶：沒錯。"],["潘部長文忠：這個我們再跟縣市溝通。剛才委員談到區域的部分，我請署裡頭整理好，再跟委員說明。"],["吳委員沛憶：好。謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請林宜瑾召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","盧縣一","萬美玲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","葉元之","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","吳春城","林倩綺","徐富癸","何欣純","黃仁","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","范雲","邱志偉","黃珊珊","劉建國"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修\n正草案」案、(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」\n案、( 三) 委員馬文君等17 人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1133901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.55346875,"end":8.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.649718750000002,"end":10.25721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.25721875,"end":16.602218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.644718750000003,"end":14.89784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.80471875,"end":19.403468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.504718750000002,"end":19.52159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.52159375,"end":19.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.53846875,"end":93.61971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.21284375,"end":24.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.777218750000003,"end":30.97971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.90659375,"end":103.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.44534375,"end":106.17471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.19159375000001,"end":106.24221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.24221875,"end":115.91159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.57971875000001,"end":108.09846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.28721875000001,"end":132.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.91534375,"end":118.94909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.15159375,"end":119.99534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":124.04534375,"end":124.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.91784375,"end":130.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.36909375000002,"end":145.96596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.95846875,"end":140.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":145.94909375,"end":148.05846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.05846875,"end":148.31159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.31159375000001,"end":166.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.09784375,"end":169.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.40534375000001,"end":173.59034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.11346875,"end":175.27784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":177.06659375,"end":177.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.08346875,"end":242.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":242.76096875000002,"end":280.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.43096875,"end":248.93721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.00534375,"end":275.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.03409375,"end":277.45596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.68346875000003,"end":297.90846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.54596875000004,"end":301.03034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.03034375000004,"end":349.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":349.96784375000004,"end":364.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.65846875,"end":359.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.77159375,"end":379.76909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.76909375,"end":379.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":379.93784375,"end":379.95471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.41034375000004,"end":385.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":384.64596875,"end":385.91159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.91159375,"end":385.96221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":385.96221875000003,"end":443.62409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.61846875000003,"end":398.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":435.70971875000004,"end":436.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":442.99971875000006,"end":450.20534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":447.62346875000003,"end":448.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":449.37846875,"end":451.94346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":451.33596875,"end":467.08034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":464.93721875000006,"end":465.07221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.15659375,"end":465.17346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":465.61221875,"end":486.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":476.91846875000005,"end":477.00284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.05346875000004,"end":477.12096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":477.12096875000003,"end":477.13784375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.13784375000006,"end":477.23909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":482.94284375,"end":482.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.84534375000004,"end":491.14409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":487.16159375,"end":508.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.62034375,"end":497.32034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":508.01909375,"end":562.62659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.5378437500001,"end":576.6328437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":576.81846875,"end":624.33846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":624.6084687499999,"end":633.2990937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":633.2990937500001,"end":656.7890937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":643.05284375,"end":643.50846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":656.26596875,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案。 因此,這條條文修正草案 案是屬於偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案 案。 因此,這條條文修正草案 案是屬於偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案 案。 因此,這條條文修正草案 案。 因此,這條條文修正草案 案。"},{"start":323.442,"end":350.102,"text":"行政的減輕持續該做。」我知道我們有小校某用區域的方式來進行但我看到聯合報有一個調查在2023年81%的偏鄉教師反映行政工作對教學是有造成負擔然後有近五成的教師表示因為這樣的行政負擔會影響到他的留任意願所以對於偏鄉地區的這些小校行政的減輕我們還有沒有什麼樣的做法"},{"start":350.762,"end":351.543,"text":"公有退休 校長兼公有工作"},{"start":380.502,"end":406.584,"text":"我們在學校裡面的行政編制有沒有辦法來精簡針對這種偏鄉地區的小校?委員如果我目前的規劃跟國教組這邊的討論因為一校一定要政治同樣的類型其實現在我們有將近三分之一是規模非常小的學校所以在行政減量這件事情上我們說除了透過這個數位的這個模式真的可以做一些比較減量"},{"start":407.725,"end":434.972,"text":"另外一個啦,我覺得應該是用區域去支持各別小型的學校所以未來在7月30號前,也就是下個學年度前我也請署長這邊要來增置這種區域資源中心的人力他是在幫忙,比如說他這個行政區內區域內有10所學校,我是舉例那有一個我們資源的中心那我們就會去立定說哪些事情由資源中心來代辦不要每個學校都辦"},{"start":435.792,"end":459.883,"text":"這個其實對長期來講就我長期的觀察以及這幾年我們推了幾個大型的這種計畫我們目前的制度運行下來我想是有成效的只是成效還不夠快所以我想是可以多管理一下這個區域資源中心我想應該要更普遍像我們國教院自己我們的智庫自己有做出一個報告其實是有建議50任以下的小校我們可以來做行政組織的精檢"},{"start":461.664,"end":468.648,"text":"所以這部分我其實希望我們國教署還是可以繼續去研議有沒有多管齊下的方式去年那個國教法修法裡面其實對我們過去習慣的教訓總等等的這一些其實在這次法修是有比較給彈性但是模式上我是建議還是可以長出教育部可以提出一些規範性給他們做參考就是說你不要什麼都所以一個人就要兼剛才委員所說的我們偏鄉地區的老師你編制都有了很大的熱情這個要兼 這個要兼"},{"start":490.882,"end":492.683,"text":"施行迄今之成效及檢討：一、邀請教育部列席"},{"start":509.716,"end":528.971,"text":"好 那最後我跟主席接一分鐘我想要關心的是我們的特教班的這個教師因為我們現在去世是普特融合可是在台北市因為我們常收到很多特教生的個案而且我發現有越來越多就是說他是滿額的班所以他必須要去跨越他原先的學區去就讀"},{"start":529.691,"end":548.613,"text":"那我就去看了一下我們的數字這幾年可以說我們特教班是在動漲台北市為例這五年來特教班的數量是一樣的可是我們必須要安置到集中式特教班的學生五年來增加了166人也就是說我們平均每一班特教班集中式的人數"},{"start":549.534,"end":561.982,"text":"小學增加的最多平均每班從6.84人上升到7.31人幼兒園就是一直都很緊繃大部分都是在8人那我們在這個看這個實質的時候啊我在想我們"},{"start":563.761,"end":583.099,"text":"現在是總量控管可是呢經過你們的評估要安置到集中式資源班的學生的數量就是在增加的可是我們班數你們用總控管動長不動變成在每一班裡面人數越來越多以台北市來說我們收到的個案他就必須要跨越"},{"start":583.939,"end":605.271,"text":"學區以外的學校就讀,也就是說每天上課的交通的時間、身心負擔都增加很多。那台北市都如此了,何況是偏鄉地區的學校。但因為我目前沒有看到資料報告,所以希望教育部可以提供給我,就是關於我們對偏鄉地區的集中式資源班的這些學生,他跨區就讀的情形。"},{"start":608.092,"end":613.374,"text":"學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案：一、邀請教育部列席就:「偏遠地區教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案：一、"},{"start":625.079,"end":636.525,"text":"應該也要達到學生的平權,所以我覺得區域區的均衡是很重要的,所以我現在往上去考慮一下,那我先拿到這個報告數字。好,謝謝,剛才委員提了這點,我簡單回答,要急於說明好了,如果經過專業的鑑定,是屬於該進入到這種我們說專班,特教專班,剛才我跟老師講說,這個一定要確立,不是因為用一個限制,這個如果有限制執行這方面,我們應該跟他們溝通,"},{"start":651.733,"end":659.521,"text":"以鑑定為準,那當然普特融合是一個國際的趨勢我現在講的就是已經鑑定後要安置到其中所以那個前提應該是不能說我不管你多少我就是給你這個,這不合理這個我們再請縣市局,剛才委員傳到區域的部分我請署裡頭整理再跟委員說明一下"}]}},{"id":"152024","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152024","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db166a320fa614d8025d5e9ec982727c87755be169921a0a7175fb1052951097e895ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"馬文君","委員發言時間":"09:57:39 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10:09:16","影片長度":"00:11:37","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「外交部如何構建友善工作環境暨人員心理輔導具體做法」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-17"},"duration":697,"end_time":"2024-05-02T10:09:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:57:39+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":257,"blocks":[["馬委員文君：（9時57分）謝謝主席。麻煩請部長。"],["主席：吳部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：委員好。"],["馬委員文君：部長好。部長，你接下來要接的職務可能會面臨的挑戰……"],["吳部長釗燮：很大！"],["馬委員文君：會更廣、更大！"],["吳部長釗燮：是，我知道。"],["馬委員文君：所以其實有時候也不需要太容易受到影響，尤其是心情，因為未來整個國際局勢的變動會更大，而且對我們影響也很大。"],["吳部長釗燮：是，謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：尤其剛剛，其實我認為有指控，這是不太適當的，這個我自己有親身經歷過，所以我覺得如果要講，那必須要把它講清楚，尤其在國會這樣是不適當的！我沒有想要再追究下去，不過這一點我們特別提出來，因為部長接下來可能要稱你為秘書長了，其實你也一直守口如瓶，在之前，不管是朝野的委員，很多委員其實都有一直在請教，我想大概你也都已經知道你會接這個職務了。不過，在這裡我們今天主要的就是員工協助方案這個部分。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["馬委員文君：我們稍微提起來，因為現在世界衛生組織統計裡面，在21世紀三大疾病，第一個就是癌症，第二個是愛滋病，第三個就是憂鬱症。憂鬱症在臺灣還特別的高，而且特別的明顯，一旦有憂鬱症，可能就會造成很多身體上疾病的引發，比如說國人很多的心臟病、高血壓、失眠這些，它對於工作、家庭或者同事之間，還有人際關係都會造成非常大的影響，所以這也是我們為什麼希望可以在政府部門或者相關的企業公司，都要有這樣子的員工協助方案。可是我們要特別提出來，包括我們看到業務報告裡面，還有今天部長以及剛剛人事處的說明，其實都在在看到它太浮面，因為我們編了五十幾萬，這五十幾萬大概就是很簡單的取得那個標案，這個公司成立的好像也不久，然後也不是我們衛福部認同的諮商公司代表，所以它到底可以協助多少？比如說，大概一年只有4個小時可以使用，像諮商跟諮詢，是諮詢4個小時，還是諮商4個小時？因為諮詢跟諮商是不太一樣的，對不對？"],["吳部長釗燮：應該是一樣吧？諮詢、諮商是一樣吧？"],["黃處長麗玲：我們是一起的。"],["馬委員文君：是當作一起？因為現在一般的大學對於在校生提供的心理諮商服務，至少每學期都有6次，每次50分鐘，結果我們還不如一個大學。就整個高強度壓力之下的一個工作環境，因為之前也發生過駐處處長自殺的狀況，現在可能還是會衍生很多其他問題，所以我們希望任何一個政策既然花了預算，就要把它做到位。"],["吳部長釗燮：是。"],["馬委員文君：現在我們看到的，我認為是嚴重的不足！如果沒有辦法提供很好的服務，那還不如不要做。雖然寫得非常好，可是沒有做到它的標準……"],["吳部長釗燮：我們是儘量把它做好，如果說委員這邊有什麼樣寶貴的建議，我們就來討論。"],["馬委員文君：因為諮詢就是大概4個小時，但是一次要講4個小時又太長，可是有問題的時候要去講，一個療程4個小時又不夠，所以光是這樣，就已經沒有人會好好利用這個部分。所以這個部分我們今天特別提出來，看要怎麼樣把它做到比較到位，可能後續再提供給我們一些相關的資訊，還有書面資料，好不好？"],["吳部長釗燮：好，我們來檢討改進，謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：現在整個國際局勢，我們看到最近的一場選舉可能就是我們過去的邦交國──索羅門群島，這次有總理的選舉，在2號就會產生了，美、中兩個強權其實都對這個非常關注，並不是因為它很大，可是因為他跟我們斷交以後，對於中國可能在那裡設置軍事基地，美國也非常重視，就這個部分，因為在他們國內不管是在野黨或者是現在的執政黨，其實對臺灣跟中國是有兩種不同的看法。"],["吳部長釗燮：對，沒有錯。"],["馬委員文君：我們應該是說中華民國。就這樣一個部分，我們有沒有可能在他們選舉之後復交？就這個部分，部長有沒有思考過？"],["吳部長釗燮：有關於索羅門群島的選舉，的確我們都在關注當中，我們所看到的就是原來的總理蘇嘉瓦瑞，也就是跟我們斷交的這個總理，他已經宣布不再參選總理，但是我們看到索羅門國內的總理選舉，跟我們其他地方的總理選舉……"],["馬委員文君：有沒有可能復交？因為時間的關係，有沒有可能復交？"],["吳部長釗燮：我想有關於這個部分可能還沒有走到那個地步，但是我們會持續密切的觀察。"],["馬委員文君：所以我們沒有朝這個方向去做？"],["吳部長釗燮：還沒有走到那個地步。我想委員剛剛所說的不只是美國關注，連歐洲等等其他這些友盟國家，對於索羅門群島的政治發展也都非常的關注。"],["馬委員文君：因為在野黨是希望跟臺灣復交，既然他們國內有這樣子的一個想法，這次的選舉牽動可能也會有後續的影響，因為我們一直斷交，可能有機會可以再增加……"],["吳部長釗燮：因為他們的選舉方式跟我們不一樣，所以我們還要再密切關注。"],["馬委員文君：不一樣沒關係，我們只是要結果而已。如果有可能，在與我們斷交的情況之下，我們也可以有復交或者增加邦交國，我覺得這個可能也是一個方向，外交部要盡人事。"],["吳部長釗燮：我們會密切關注。"],["馬委員文君：否則我們都在努力其他的部分而已。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：另外一項大概就是川普前總統，這一次在年底的選舉他也有可能當選，因為他在接受TIME雜誌採訪的時候，他說如果他贏，盟友不付錢就靠自己！他每次都把他的目標跟他的作法都講得非常地清楚，因為反正就是這兩個嘛！不是現任，那有可能就是川普，如果川普有可能再當選美國總統，對我們會有什麼樣的影響？未來在國安會跟美方的互動，或者未來不管在臺海也好，或者像美臺、美中，或者美中臺關係等等，其實這個都是很重要的一個方向，如果以川普目前他的思考邏輯或者他的作法，他過去對我們也是一樣，而且他甚至認為如果我們沒有做到位，像烏克蘭跟俄羅斯，他認為烏克蘭如果沒有付出相當的代價，他是鼓勵俄羅斯繼續打，那臺灣呢？就你的看法。"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員，這有兩點的說明，第一點就是我們自我防衛的決心，以及我們自我防衛能力的加強，在這一方面是毋庸置疑的，尤其是我們在國防方面的投資、我們訓練的加強，以及跟美國等這些好朋友的安全關係的加強等等，這些都應該是可以被看得到。第二點就是美國跟臺灣的關係，會不會因為換了一個政府、換了一個政黨執政而受到衝擊？如果看一看美國的國會，我們是受到兩黨的歡迎的，而且兩黨對我們都是非常地支持，在這一個層次來看的話，未來不管是誰執政，跟臺灣的關係我們都很有信心。"],["馬委員文君：部長，我們會特別這樣問，是因為我們必須付出多大的代價，今天我們增加了多少國防預算，或者做什麼樣的訓練等等，其實這些都是其他的面向，可是我們現在說的是美國，一個對我們非常重要的國家，然後他的領導人，其實他的想法會牽動到我們未來付出的代價，包括如果臺海有衝突的時候，我們是不可以掉以輕心……"],["吳部長釗燮：當然。"],["馬委員文君：就這個部分我們要付出多少代價，我今天想要知道的是這個部分，你認為我們會多出什麼樣的一個付出，或者必須要怎麼樣跟他做後續的一個溝通？"],["吳部長釗燮：在這邊也跟委員報告一下……"],["馬委員文君：請簡單講。"],["吳部長釗燮：我很簡單地說明，就是我們不是直接跟川普先生打交道，我們也不是直接跟拜登先生打交道，我們所做的就是與美國兩黨裡面重要的這些人士同時都維持非常好的關係，所以接下來如果有不同的政府，我相信在這些基礎之上，我們都能夠維持非常好的關係，美國協助我們的態度是不會改變的。"],["馬委員文君：部長，他們協助的當然也是以美國的國家利益為考量，因為現在在區域的競爭上面，其實他們對於中國的崛起，這才是他們最大的顧忌，現在在世界上已經有俄烏、已經有中東，甚至伊朗跟以色列其實也都有可能發生衝突，在美國本土已經有很多挺巴的衝突不斷地升高，這樣的情勢可能都是我們要關注的，因為對我們來說，接下來可能比較有危險的地方，也是我們應該要先去考量的。而不是因為兩黨會幫我們，到時候他可以幫什麼？他們也幫烏克蘭啊！可是他們幫了什麼？或者可以為烏克蘭失去的，或者他們喪失的生命，或者在戰爭付出的代價，他們可以提供什麼？這個是我們要知道的，我們講的不是只有他們的國會而已，而是我們必須付出的代價，這是我們比較關切的。","未來你在國安會可能還是會有這樣全般的一個考量，就這個部分，是不是再給不管新政府也好，不管我們所有的，整體包括我們的國人都應該要有這樣子一個應對的可能未來性。"],["吳部長釗燮：對，非常謝謝委員從各個角度來看這個事情，我們會以我們國家利益為主，來強化我們的國防，謝謝委員。"],["馬委員文君：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝馬委員。","下一位請沈伯洋委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-17","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","徐巧芯","洪申翰","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","林楚茵","羅智強","黃仁","林憶君"],"page_start":73,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「外交部如何構建友善工作環境暨人員心理輔導具體做法」，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1133801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.7565937500000001,"end":2.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.11471875,"end":5.00909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.927843750000001,"end":13.36221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.817843750000002,"end":33.190343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.06159375,"end":20.53409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.22596875,"end":21.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.137218750000002,"end":22.69409375},{"sp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":218.257,"text":"所以就整個我們的高強度的壓力之下的一個工作環境因為之前也發生過住處的處長自殺的狀況然後現在可能還是有會有衍生很多其他的問題所以我們希望我們任何一個政策然後你既然花了預算你就把它做到位"},{"start":231.105,"end":245.685,"text":"現在我們看到的可能我認為是嚴重的不足啦那你如果是沒有辦法提供很好的服務那還不如不要做因為我們寫的非常好可是沒有做到他的那個標準我們是盡量把它做好如果說委員這邊有什麼樣寶貴的建議我們這邊就要討論"},{"start":249.208,"end":275.021,"text":"諮詢就是你大概4個小時那你一次要講4個小時又太長可是你有問題的時候要去講一個療程4個小時又不夠所以其實光是這樣他就已經沒有人可能會好好的利用這個部分所以這個部分我們現在今天特別提出來就是這個部分怎麼樣把它做到比較到位這個可能在後續再提供給我們相關的一些"},{"start":276.522,"end":279.925,"text":"現在因為在整個國際局勢上面就是我們看到最近的一場選舉可能就是我們過去的邦交國所羅門群島"},{"start":291.857,"end":293.439,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":312.279,"end":325.383,"text":"就是軍事基地的部分美國也非常重視那就這個部分因為在他們的國內不管是在野黨或者像他們現在執政黨其實對台灣跟中國是有兩種不同的一個看法對沒有錯那我們應該是說中華民國就這樣的一個部分他們是有沒有可能在選舉之後我們有沒有可能復交這個部分"},{"start":341.017,"end":361.113,"text":"有關於這個部分有關於所羅門群島的這個選舉的確我們都在關注當中那我們所看到的就是說那個原來的總理蘇嘉瓦瑞就是跟我們斷交的這個總理他已經宣布不再參選總理那但是我們看到那個所羅門國內的這個總理的選舉跟我們其他地方的有沒有可能復交"},{"start":363.035,"end":380.089,"text":"有關於這個部分可能還沒有走到那個地步但是我們會持續密切的觀察還沒有走到那個地步啦那我想委員剛所說的不只是美國關注連澳洲等等的其他的這些遊盟國家對於那個索羅門群島的這個政治的發展也都非常的關注"},{"start":380.854,"end":383.516,"text":"因為在野黨是希望跟臺灣復交,那既然他們國內有這樣子的一個想法,那這一次的選舉牽動可能也會有後續的影響,因為我們一直斷交,可能有機會,可能可以再增加。因為選舉的風險跟我們的不一樣,所以我們還要再密切關注。"},{"start":403.39,"end":412.752,"text":"斷交的情況之下我們也可以有復交或者增加邦交國我覺得這個可能也是一個方向外交部盡力試不然我們都會去其他部份另外一行大概就是川普總統前總統他這一次在年底的選舉他也有可能當選那他當選因為他在接受TIME的那個採訪的時候他說如果他贏"},{"start":430.134,"end":430.174,"text":"﹚馬文君﹚"},{"start":453.604,"end":453.644,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":476.067,"end":477.449,"text":"非常謝謝委員那這有兩點的說明"},{"start":491.947,"end":509.683,"text":"第一點就是說我們自我防衛的決心以及我們自我防衛能力的這個加強在這一方面是無庸置疑的尤其是我們在國防方面的這個投資我們訓練的加強以及跟美國等這些好朋友的這個安全關係的加強等等的那這些都應該是可以被看得到"},{"start":510.343,"end":533.3,"text":"第二點就是說美國跟台灣的關係會不會因為換了一個政府換了一個政黨執政而會受到衝擊那如果說看一看美國的國會我們是受到兩黨的歡迎的而且兩黨對我們都是非常的支持那在這個層次來看的話未來不管是誰執政跟台灣的關係我們都很有信心"},{"start":534.008,"end":560.496,"text":"部長因為我們會特別這樣問是我們必須付出多大的代價因為今天我們提增加了多少國防運算或者做什麼樣的訓練等等其實這都是其他的面向可是我們現在說的是美國一個對我們非常重要的國家然後他的領導人其實他的想法會牽動到我們未來付出的代價包括如果台海有衝突的時候我們"},{"start":562.637,"end":562.677,"text":"馬文君議員"},{"start":579.708,"end":605.564,"text":"很簡單的說明我們不是直接跟川普先生打交道我們也不是直接跟拜登先生打交道我們所做的就是說在美國兩黨裡面重要的這些人士我們同時都維持非常好的關係所以接下來如果說有不同的政府我相信在這些基礎之上我們都能夠維持非常好的關係美國協助我們的態度是不會改變的"},{"start":605.964,"end":631.914,"text":"他們協助的當然也是以美國的國家利益為考量因為現在如果在區域的競爭上面其實他們對於中國的崛起其實這才是他們最大的顧忌那現在在世界上已經有俄烏已經有中東甚至伊朗跟以色列其實也都有可能發生衝突在美國本土已經有很多的挺巴的這樣的衝突不斷的"},{"start":633.835,"end":633.875,"text":"﹚馬文君"},{"start":661.645,"end":686.578,"text":"這個是我們要知道的我們講的不是只有他們的國會而已而是我們必須付出的代價這是我們比較關切的那未來您在國安會可能還是會有這樣全班的一個考量那就這個部分是不是在給不管新政府也好不管我們所有的我們整體包括我們的國人都應該要有這樣子的一個應對的一個可能未來性"},{"start":687.844,"end":694.917,"text":"對,非常謝謝委員從各個角度來看這個事情那我們會以我們國家利益為主來強化我們的國防謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152023","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152023","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db11b09a061fe06cee8d575e50b9cd8685a55be169921a0a71756c01e1ed2fe403d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"09:56:41 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10:07:05","影片長度":"00:10:24","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員王育敏等19人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【以上議案，如經復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-14"},"duration":624,"end_time":"2024-05-02T10:07:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:56:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":336,"blocks":[["王委員育敏：（9時56分）謝謝主席，是不是請薛部長，還有主計總處的黃專門委員？"],["主席：好，請薛部長，以及主計總處的專門委員。"],["薛部長瑞元：還有健保署的石署長也一起上來。"],["主席：好，石署長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["王委員育敏：部長，我先請教你一個問題，賴清德總統提出他的競選政見，就是最高目標是健保點值可以用1.1為目標，這件事情他有徵詢過您的意見嗎？當他提出這個政見的時候，相關團隊有徵詢過你的意見嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：在過去我們並沒有對於這一點受到徵詢，不過我想委員可能要做一點調整，它不是1.1元，而是健保點值1點1元。"],["王委員育敏：1點1元？"],["薛部長瑞元：嗯。"],["王委員育敏：健保點值1點1元，好。他沒有徵詢過你的意見嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有。"],["王委員育敏：所以是競選團隊提出來的？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["王委員育敏：所以難怪您在剛剛的答詢之間好像完全否定這項政見，您覺得……"],["薛部長瑞元：我沒有否定……"],["王委員育敏：你沒有否定？"],["薛部長瑞元：我是說在我的任內，我沒有辦法去支持這個。"],["王委員育敏：我剛剛有聽出來你的意思……"],["薛部長瑞元：但是新的……"],["王委員育敏：那可能是未來邱泰源部長要去承擔的。我要請主計總處，剛剛我一直聽到部長說要請主計總處來說明，看起來你們是很不支持。我請教你同樣的問題，賴清德準總統提出來健保點值的目標1點1元的時候，有沒有徵詢過主計總處的意見？"],["黃專門委員厚輯：當然是沒有，因為是總統當候選人時候的政見。"],["王委員育敏：總統的政見。我就請教你，他要來當我們總統了，他要落實他的政見，你們主計總處會支持未來準總統這樣的政見嗎？"],["黃專門委員厚輯：委員，可不可以容我說明一下？基本上目前這個案子是大院提的，依預算法的規定，還有……"],["王委員育敏：你先不用講這部分，我只問你未來總統如果要去落實他的政見，力推健保點值要調高，你們主計總處會配合嗎？"],["黃專門委員厚輯：應該是說要怎麼落實這個政見，其實不一定是由公務預算來處理，當然，我們目前是健保總額制度，原則上如果健保有需求，當然是從總額的額度看是提高或是調高保費來……"],["王委員育敏：我只問你主計總處，如果總統說他的政見就是要推，你們當然是配合，沒有第二句話，不是嗎？我就問你，現在面臨台電的財務虧損，1,000億的補貼就過去了，主計總處有沒有答應？有啊！對不對？就是政策決定你有沒有錢嘛，就是這樣子啊！整個國家的預算大餅是看這個錢要放在哪裡，要不然台電的虧損為什麼要由政府、主計總處答應，1,000億就要過去？合理嗎？照道理來講，是補貼它比較合理，還是來補貼健保？健保還照顧全國所有的民眾，你的政策標準在哪裡？主計總處給錢的標準在哪裡？沒有標準，上面說給誰就給誰，就是這樣子，不是嗎？好，主計總處可以回去了，我看主計總處給錢其實就是這樣子。部長，你沒有看見嗎？事實上是政策可以決定經費可不可以到位，人家台電可以要到1,000億，你健保這邊沒有錢，然後你剛剛說要問主計總處。要去爭取啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：所以在17天之內要去爭取這個，我是做不到。"],["王委員育敏：瞭解，我聽明白你的意思了。但是這件事情不是在於政府有沒有錢的問題，很多時候都是來自於更高層決定這筆錢要往哪個方向去。"],["薛部長瑞元：不過這個也是要看整個財務的狀況。"],["王委員育敏：所以不是用了這筆錢就會影響到社會福利預算，我不同意這樣的看法，而是政府有錢，如果去補貼台電也可以；勞保基金虧損，它不做制度的改革，一直用撥補，1,200億，也有錢啊！就只有你健保沒有錢，健保要個幾百億就沒有錢，這就是國家整體的資源往哪邊擺放的問題。","當然，我也同意制度的改革要合理，兩位都從醫界來，這件事情為什麼醫界反彈聲音這麼大？光去看健保點值這個圖，這樣子上上下下，這是合理的嗎？你現在用的總額制度，健保點值就是浮動式的，這樣是合理的嗎？如果它是合理的，去年、前幾年在疫情這麼艱困的情況底下，政府就不會再撥補進去，因為它有不合理的地方，就是當需要醫療量能提高的時候，用一個總額的制度就顯然非常地不合理，是做越多賠越多，沒有這樣子的道理。","我覺得剛剛部長你講得很好，我們要珍惜整體的健保制度，但是請記得，不要「又要馬兒好，又要馬兒不吃草」，天底下沒有這樣的事情……"],["薛部長瑞元：這是當然。"],["王委員育敏：我們希望最專業的醫療人員在第一線的崗位上面守護國人的健康及安全，但是另外一方面，我們應該提供他們合理、健全的醫療保障制度，我覺得這是我們應該要去追求的。所以合理的改革是我們應該要去討論的，而不是用這樣子的方式說因為這樣子，健保可能會倒，我覺得也不要用這樣子的話語……"],["薛部長瑞元：這個是事實。"],["王委員育敏：而是應該指出來，我們如果要這樣調的話，所有搭配的制度……我很遺憾，可能部長要離開了，所以你沒有提出完整的報告。你應該要提出A、B方案，說明如果我們想要這樣子去調高，譬如至少是0.95，你看看這條線，差不多是在0.95左右，如果要變成至少0.95這樣的方式，其他應該要搭配進來的方案是什麼，包括政府要求主計總處固定撥補進來的金額變成也要常態化，然後接下來才是討論健保費要不要調漲的問題，我覺得談事情應該要這樣子談。所以這件事情我覺得沒有什麼是非對錯的問題，而是遇到問題了，醫界有反映，我們來共同解決，至於解決的方案，作為衛福部，應該提出你們認為可行的幾個方案，這樣來討論比較有意義。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，它跟台電的補貼是不一樣的，台電補貼是一次性……"],["王委員育敏：你怎麼確定是一次性？它現在……"],["薛部長瑞元：它並沒有講說每年，但是如果這個案子下去的話，如果通過的話，就是每年，就是必須是每年。"],["王委員育敏：你認為我們政府財政做不到嗎？我們現在每一年多出來的稅有多少，你知道嗎？幾千億耶！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，那個是最近這幾年因為我們的經濟情況好，出口……"],["王委員育敏：已經超徵稅額，都是幾千億，為什麼不能優先來改善這部分呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：如果是只有一次性的，可能問題會比較小，但是健保法第六十二條的修正如果過的話，是每年。"],["王委員育敏：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：是每年，而且這個規模會每年越來越大。"],["王委員育敏：你可以搭配其他的方案進來，你懂我的意思嗎？為什麼沒有其他的方案？你剛剛會講，然後講到這個，所以我覺得你好像是完全反對這樣的調整方向。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，我只是提出警告。我之前也報告過，我剩下17天……"],["王委員育敏：我知道、我知道。"],["薛部長瑞元：我沒有辦法去預測未來會怎麼樣做。"],["王委員育敏：因為賴總統也沒有先來徵詢你的意見，然後他就這樣子丟出來了，所以你提出這樣一個警告，但是我覺得這一個方案是醫界已經反映多次的，而且一直在反映，那你看看我們的健保點值一直是浮動式的，坦白講也有它不合理的地方，所以……"],["薛部長瑞元：其中包括疫情期間，所以這個計算有點不太合理。"],["王委員育敏：其實應該要好好的來討論到底怎麼樣來檢討。我們有一個共識，全民健保很好，這是臺灣的驕傲，但是全民健保也不能建構在壓榨第一線醫護人員，讓他們過勞或血汗，這個我們也是不同意，就是合理的讓臺灣的醫護可以很驕傲，加上這個健保制度，這是政府應該窮盡一切方法去做，該改革的時候，該調整的時候，我們應該一起來思考。石署長，你也講一句話吧，您現在是中央健保署署長，你長期也都在衛福部，應該很知道醫界的心聲，你作為一個署長，你認為未來這個改革可以朝什麼方向前進？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，確實點值上有改善的空間，那在策略上當然一方面是在總額的成長上要有一個適當的調整，按照我們現在健保法的設計，是以「支」來算「收」，所以先討論提供民眾的服務到哪個範圍，然後再回過頭來籌措財源。在上週的健康台灣論壇裡面，大家也提出了健保多元財源的一些方案，我們也都會一個一個很仔細的來研究，設法為健保創造更多的財源。"],["王委員育敏：好，你會繼續擔任署長吧？你有沒有被告知？"],["石署長崇良：我目前是事務官，所以我都聽從長官的安排。"],["王委員育敏：好，我希望你用這樣的態度持續去研議，找出一套方法真的可以改善醫界現在的困境，又讓健保可以永續，一個雙贏的方法，我們一起來為這個制度的改革努力，謝謝。"],["主席（王委員育敏）：好，謝謝。","請邱鎮軍委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-14","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","黃秀芳","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","劉建國","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","賴士葆","李彥秀","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","賴惠員","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；二、委員蘇清\n泉等27人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康\n保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6722187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.04659375,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.19409375,"end":13.868468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.543468750000002,"end":17.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start"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«全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。�二、國民黨黨團擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。�"},{"start":93.485,"end":100.626,"text":" incarcerate 總統的政見。那我就請教你,他要來當我們總統了。那他要落實他的政見。那你們主計總署會支持這個未來準總統的這樣的一個政見嗎?"},{"start":119.745,"end":138.241,"text":"是,委員可不可以讓我說明一下,因為基本上目前這個案子是大院提的嘛,那依我們的預算法的規定。你先不用講這部分,我只問你,未來總統如果他要去落實他的政見,他要去力推健保點子要調高,那你們主計總書會配合嗎?"},{"start":139.889,"end":148.811,"text":"我只問你嘛,主席總書如果總統他說他政見就是要推,你們當然是配合啊,沒有第二句話啊,不是嗎?我就問你,現在台電的財務虧損一千億的補貼就過去了,有沒有,主席總書有沒有答應?"},{"start":170.117,"end":197.259,"text":"有啊 對不對就是政策決定你有沒有錢嘛就是這樣子啊整個國家的預算的大餅是看這個錢要放在哪裡嘛要不然台建的虧損為什麼要由這個政府你主計總署要答應一千億就要過去合理嗎照再來講是補貼他比較合理還是在補貼健保健保還照顧全國的所有的民眾欸那你的政策標準在哪裡主計總署的給錢的標準在哪裡"},{"start":199.5,"end":200.521,"text":" bicyn 沈 沈 沈 沈 沈"},{"start":227.496,"end":228.997,"text":"ympt."},{"start":228.997,"end":242.464,"text":"我聽明白你的意思了。但是這件事情不是在於政府有沒有錢的問題,很多時候都是來自於更高層,他決定我這筆錢要往哪個方向去。"},{"start":245.265,"end":265.708,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":265.868,"end":285.649,"text":" bicyn- 這是你國家整體的資源往哪邊擺放的問題。當然我也同意制度的改革要有合理,要合理。所以這一件事情,這個兩位都從一屆來喔。這一件事情為什麼一屆反彈聲音這麼大?你光去看這個健保點子,這個圖你來看,這樣子上上下下。"},{"start":286.51,"end":307.193,"text":""},{"start":307.193,"end":322.295,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":322.455,"end":342.116,"text":"但是請記得不要馬而好又要馬而不吃草。天底下沒有這樣的事情。我們需要所有的醫療人員用最專業的醫療人員要他們在第一線的崗位上面守護國人的健康跟安全。但是另外一方面我們應該要提供給他合理"},{"start":342.757,"end":350.081,"text":" bicyn全等一個醫療保障的制度我覺得這個是我們應該要去追求的所以合理的改革是我們應該要去討論的而不是用這樣子的方式說因為這樣子這個我們健保可能會倒我覺得也不要用這樣子的話語而是應該指出來說我們如果要這樣調的話我所有搭配的制度我很遺憾可能部長你要離開了所以沒有提出你完整的報告"},{"start":369.991,"end":396.51,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":396.63,"end":425.532,"text":"disciplinary,接下來才是討論健保費要不要調漲的問題。我覺得談事情應該是要這樣子談。所以這一件事情我覺得沒有什麼是、非、對、錯的問題,而是遇到問題了。就是醫界有反應,我們來共同解決。那解決的方案作為衛福部應該提出你們認為可行的幾個方案,這樣來討論比較容易。各位報告齁,這個跟台電的補貼是不一樣。台電補貼大概是一次性。"},{"start":426.363,"end":435.057,"text":"你怎麼確定一次性?他現在...他並沒有講說每年,但是如果這一個案子下去的話,如果通過的話,就是每年。"},{"start":436.429,"end":462.312,"text":"那你認為我們政府財政做不到嗎?我們現在每一年我們多出來的稅有多少你知道嗎?幾千億欸!對,那個是最近這幾年,因為我們的經濟情況好。已經超徵稅額都是幾千億欸!那為什麼不能優先來改善這部分呢?那個如果是只有一次性的,那可能就是問題會比較小。但是這個健保的這一個六十二條的修正如果過的話是每年。"},{"start":463.08,"end":470.469,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":470.734,"end":495.394,"text":"你懂我意思嗎?為什麼沒有其他的方案,你剛剛會講,然後講到這個,所以我覺得你好像是完全反對這樣的調整方案。沒有,我只是提出警告,我之前也報告過嘛,我剩下17天。我知道,我知道。我沒有辦法去預測。因為賴總統也沒有先來徵詢你的意見,然後他就這樣子丟出來了,所以你提出這樣的一個警告。"},{"start":495.814,"end":513.948,"text":" bicyn 但是我覺得這個方案是醫界已經反映多次而且一直在反映那你看看我們的健保點子這樣子一直浮動式的坦白講也有它不合理的地方所以其實應該是要好好的來討論到底怎麼樣來檢討我們有一個共識全民健保很好這是臺灣的驕傲但是全民健保也不能建構在壓榨第一線"},{"start":525.417,"end":527.678,"text":" disadvant四、國民黨黨團擬具〈全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":545.307,"end":557.175,"text":" bicyn 您現在是中央健保署的署長。您長期也都在這個衛福部。您應該很知道一屆的心聲。那您作為一個署長,您認為未來這個改革可能有什麼方向可以前進?"},{"start":575.627,"end":579.028,"text":" bicyn Kwan-kwan﹗"},{"start":602.193,"end":623.183,"text":"​​​​​​​​"}]}},{"id":"152021","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152021","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1cd254c916dc7ab530cbbe991ada1931c55be169921a0a717b92ba5236964c1d45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"葛如鈞","委員發言時間":"09:53:45 - 10:04:42","影片長度":"00:10:57","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答)【4月29日及5月2日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":657,"end_time":"2024-05-02T10:04:42+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:53:45+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":261,"blocks":[["葛委員如鈞：（9時53分）謝謝主席。有請教育部潘文忠部長備詢。"],["主席：好，請潘部長。"],["潘部長文忠：葛委員好。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝，部長好。昨天是五一勞動節，全臺灣的勞工原則上依法都應該放假一天，但是有點遺憾，今年因為行政院來不及研議配套的措施，教師還是沒有辦法在勞動節當天放假，其實還有更令一般基層教師困擾的地方，在這個數位時代，由於通訊軟體發達，有時候老師下班了以後，還會收到很多簡訊，不管是家長或是學生，經常是需要立刻處理跟回應的，所以也有基層教師表示應該要捍衛老師們下班時間的離線權，也有教師認為下班時間處理公務，往來都有時間紀錄，能不能申請加班費？想先請教一下部長，站在教育部的立場，是不是支持教師能夠以通訊軟體的截圖、email或者是電子紀錄做為憑據來申請加班費？"],["潘部長文忠：是，我跟委員報告，因為確實目前老師的工作型態也會因為現在……"],["葛委員如鈞：很繁雜、很多元。"],["潘部長文忠：是，之前應該說有一個制度，老師如果是利用下班，像假日參加活動，其實有一套加班計算的方式，但是這個有個前提，如果今天他是跟誰自由交談，這當然不可能……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，就是有……"],["潘部長文忠：但是如果學校的校長或主任有要求、邀請老師做什麼事情，如果確實有這個指令，他就會跟公務員一樣。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝，就是有，但是看起來還不夠完備或不夠明確。","我們來看一下，目前六都當中，其實只有臺北市、臺中市有函釋，明定教師加班費支給的相關規定，所以您剛剛提到的，有的地方可能是默契，有的地方可能是慣例，想請教一下部長，教育部是不是可以積極推動地方教育局明文規定，讓教師的加班費支給可以有相關的規定？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個可能要討論，因為下班後老師的服務型態真的比較不一樣……"],["葛委員如鈞：我想照顧勞工或者照顧工作者是政府要做的，尤其是現在的教師其實負擔也都非常的重，人數減少了，但是負擔變重了，因為工作的類型變多元，希望教育部可以站在教師的立場，積極來推動相關支給的規定。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個部分我們是不是跟縣市做一個討論……"],["葛委員如鈞：當然、當然……"],["潘部長文忠：因為現在也有幾個模式……"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，感謝部長積極主動啦！"],["潘部長文忠：可是那個方式應該怎麼處理，我們要討論。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，希望討論的結果我們很快可以知道。","接下來我們來談到今天的主題：偏鄉教育，106年這個立法三讀以前，偏鄉教育的困境有很多，我想請教一下，現在6年後了，您覺得有什麼樣的面向還沒有被改善到的嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，應該這樣講，在學校體系與學生的照顧這一方面……"],["葛委員如鈞：偏鄉。"],["潘部長文忠：對、對，說實在，這個條例幫助很大……"],["葛委員如鈞：哪部分是比較缺漏的、大家抱怨還比較多的？有一些改得不錯了，我知道。"],["潘部長文忠：一個是行政的負荷還是重……"],["葛委員如鈞：很好，沒錯……"],["潘部長文忠：另外一個是社區與家長之間，偏鄉學校……"],["葛委員如鈞：溝通。"],["潘部長文忠：不是溝通，因為它的特性，就是隔代教養或單親還是比例高，所以在這一方面也會跟學校一起，對於學生支持上面，確實是還需要再努力。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝部長的理解，非常完整。我們來看一下，確實行政的負擔非常重就是偏鄉教師想離開最主要的原因，對於這些困境，我們到底該怎麼解決？剛剛部長講的頭頭是道，都很清楚，我們怎麼解決行政負擔？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，行政負擔這一方面，委員是數位資訊專業，能夠瞭解，這一方面我們不斷地在做，包含學校的行政系統，因為學校填表單，說真話，如果不透過這一方面，真的常常重複，所以這個方面是一個作法。","第二個、從這幾年我們推幾個大的政策，包含生生用平板、中央廚房，還有冷氣裝設，我們用了一個模式……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，很好……"],["潘部長文忠：這個模式，我覺得……"],["葛委員如鈞：有在做，但是剛剛講的都是硬體，沒關係，我理解，都在努力，用科技、用……"],["潘部長文忠：不是，我要跟委員報告的是我們會在縣市……"],["葛委員如鈞：冷氣怎麼來幫助他行政負擔減少？"],["潘部長文忠：區域成立資源中心，意思就是譬如剛才的採購，照理說，每個學校要自行採購一次，但是我們這幾次的經驗是區域幫忙共同採購，像午餐來講，是把餐送到學校，學校不要設廚房、不要廚工阿姨，也不用去做，類似這樣的方式，我想應該更……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，沒關係，我們之後回放一下，來看一下到底剛剛講的哪些是跟行政負擔有關，但是沒有關係，我理解您是很有心。","我們來看，接下來，其實廢校很可能接下來是廢村，因為我們現在人口持續減少，我們有13萬的新生兒人數，未來有2,600個國小，以後平均起來只有50出頭，低於指標50人這種所謂的小學校可能會越來越多，接下來可能會有這些廢校的議題，就您的觀察，近年來這些廢校的議題其實會越來越嚴重，沒有學校怎麼會有教育，沒有教育怎麼會有地方，沒有地方怎麼會有地方創生。我們一直在看所謂偏鄉教師的行政負擔非常的重，一個老師剛進去的時候，竟然學生第一個要問他的問題不是「老師，你要教什麼？」而是「老師，你什麼時候要被調走？」他留下來了以後，學生問的是「老師，你什麼時候會回來？」這應該不是我們偏鄉教育想要看到的事情。","接下來我想要問的是剛剛我們提到的行政負擔減量的部分，到底執行成效是什麼？您剛剛回答了很多，中央是否進行考核？考核指標是什麼？到底是誰來考核？誰來輔導？有沒有一些相關的報告？"],["潘部長文忠：委員所提的是行政減量的執行，是嗎？"],["葛委員如鈞：對啊！行政負擔減量的執行成效到底怎麼樣？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，這個部分，我都一直在跟各地方教育局處長做提醒及要求……"],["葛委員如鈞：口頭提醒，有沒有會議紀錄、有沒有報告、有沒有研議、有沒有作法？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，因為這個是每個縣市的自治事項，我們不能要求新北市所有做的要跟中央的要求一樣……"],["葛委員如鈞：我想中央……"],["潘部長文忠：我舉一個具體的例子，像校務評鑑，我們就建議不要這樣普遍地去做，那個真的是……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，那已經很久以前了，我知道……"],["潘部長文忠：不、不，那是我們建議，才廢掉了。"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝，我想接下來還是要持續評估，同時也希望能夠參考，用更多新的技術，以新北市為例，就有新北校園通的app，而且3月28日有提出全國第一本的AI科技教育白皮書，或許可以讓教育部來瞭解一下，做為其他縣市的借鏡，用科技力來紓解行政的壓力。","另外，我也想要來談一下讓更多數位方法進來，我們看到111年度數位學習的預算高達122億，前瞻基礎建設計畫又投入150億，接下來行政院又喊出4年200億，達成「班班有網路、生生用平板」，剛剛都一直提到，但是本席一直關心的重點是這些平板是要拿來運作軟體與工具的，我們接下來會想要請教你們，有這麼多的新工具一直在產出，我們是不是只重硬而不重軟？接下來，尤其是AI程式相繼推出，有很多軟體服務都慢慢地開始變成要付費的。","接下來我們來看一個例子，這是免費版的ChatGPT，當你問他「母湯」是什麼的時候，它說是像媽媽做的湯一樣混亂無章；但是如果你用付費版1個月20塊美金的，它答得非常好，它還知道我們教育部推動要叫「毋通」，不能叫「母湯」，講得很好！結果我們發現其實OpenAI已經測試過了，用免費版與付費版平均少了30分，如果我們不積極投入這些相關的預算，不只是讓他有平板而已，他還要有軟體，這個軟體還可能要有付費版來支持，否則我們可能會有這種城鄉差距，城市的孩子用付費版的，他做出來的學習履歷、學習資料、申請學校的資料都比這些人更好，這個不是我們要的。","我想要問的是，接下來我們到底有沒有這些AI軟體的相關輔助支持，也想請教一下部長，剛剛我們還提到開機率的問題，一個硬體開機是要拿來用的，是要有軟體及工具的，想請教一下，教育部有沒有研究過其他國家在數位教育的預算上，軟體硬體的支出占比到底各自是多少？有沒有研究過？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，這個生生用平板的200億當中，每年我們投入是9億，就是要做軟體的……"],["葛委員如鈞：19億，還是9億？"],["潘部長文忠：9億。"],["葛委員如鈞：122億比9億喔！"],["潘部長文忠：不是啦！我講的是每年……"],["葛委員如鈞：每年。"],["潘部長文忠：如果4年就是40億左右……"],["葛委員如鈞：40億左右是四分之一，對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：對。"],["葛委員如鈞：四分之一這樣的比例到底是不是合理？會不會就是軟體不夠用，沒有真正讓他學習的東西，開機率才會降低嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個詳細的情形可以給委員看……"],["葛委員如鈞：謝謝，所以我想……"],["潘部長文忠：不只是AI，包含老師要用的，在教學軟體上，老師只要提出建議，經過審核，我們就會支持……"],["葛委員如鈞：他還要有幫助他辨識……"],["潘部長文忠：對、對、對。"],["葛委員如鈞：我們接下來……"],["潘部長文忠：現在這個軟體就是要幫助學校老師在教學應用上……"],["葛委員如鈞：同時他審查資料的時候要用工具來辨識到底學生有沒有用AI來產出資料……"],["潘部長文忠：是、是，所以不是只有硬體，軟體是4年就將近40億。"],["葛委員如鈞：我想不是只是我們說四分之一就夠，請教育部蒐集相關的資料，其他國家在數位預算上軟硬體的支出占比到底是多少，能不能一個月內將資料以書面提供給本席？"],["潘部長文忠：可以，我們所做的，包含國際的，我們也做一個瞭解。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝，希望部長可以來幫助我們，不管您是不是留任，都還是希望……"],["潘部長文忠：委員，我不留任了啦！確定不留任。"],["葛委員如鈞：對、對，不留任了，就是有沒有留在這個領域裡頭，就像我們剛剛講的，說不定之後您是到偏鄉來幫我們爭取偏鄉的預算，不管怎麼樣，希望都還是持續來努力，也send一個message向行政院來爭取更多的軟體預算。","最後還是要感謝潘部長這八年來對教育部業務的付出，相信只要部長在位一天，應該我們也都會有共識，持續拉近城鄉的落差，以預防未來的數位落差，甚至是智慧落差，努力幫我們向行政院爭取資源，不管是哪一天，好不好？期待部長帶來好消息。"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝委員，委員剛才提到有關軟硬體，還有國際的，我請資科司這邊整理後再跟委員報告……"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：也請委員指導，因為你這一方面真的很專業，謝謝。"],["葛委員如鈞：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝兩位。","接下來請吳沛憶委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","盧縣一","萬美玲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","葉元之","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","吳春城","林倩綺","徐富癸","何欣純","黃仁","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","范雲","邱志偉","黃珊珊","劉建國"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修\n正草案」案、(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」\n案、( 三) 委員馬文君等17 人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1133901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.632843750000003,"end":12.552218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.653468750000002,"end":13.817843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.84284375,"end":66.18096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.61971875,"end":101.93909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.01534375,"end":74.83784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":97.09596875000001,"end":97.34909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.72409375000001,"end":100.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":101.93909375000001,"end":127.77471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.41596875000002,"end":134.89596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.95096875000002,"end":148.56471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.92346875,"end":156.98534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":151.06221875,"end":151.82159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.76659375,"end":153.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":153.49221875,"end":171.98721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.86471875,"end":177.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.30284375000002,"end":184.00221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.20971875,"end":181.13346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.36534375000002,"end":182.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.36096875,"end":188.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.32659375,"end":189.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.18721875,"end":189.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.03096875,"end":207.44159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.23346875000001,"end":190.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.82784375,"end":193.26659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":205.83846875,"end":222.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":222.30846875,"end":250.05096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":222.64596875,"end":223.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":248.85284375,"end":249.00471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":249.57846875,"end":255.31596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.22346875000002,"end":253.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.56096875000003,"end":254.28659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.31596875000002,"end":282.77159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":257.37471875,"end":260.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":282.23159375,"end":353.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.45221875000004,"end":359.14784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":357.89909375,"end":360.81846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.63284375,"end":368.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":367.65284375000005,"end":368.81721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":368.81721875000005,"end":390.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":368.91846875000005,"end":371.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.97284375000004,"end":372.59721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":380.91659375,"end":382.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":387.83534375000005,"end":390.48471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":390.48471875,"end":390.97409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":390.97409375,"end":536.5715937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.56471875,"end":392.17221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":392.67846875000004,"end":393.31971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":536.7234687499999,"end":552.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":544.92471875,"end":546.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":546.9328437500001,"end":547.1015937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":548.0634687500001,"end":548.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":550.42596875,"end":551.1515937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":552.80534375,"end":565.0734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":554.47596875,"end":555.2859687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":559.94346875,"end":562.1540937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":563.90909375,"end":571.50284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":570.6928437500001,"end":571.90784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.90784375,"end":572.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.04284375,"end":572.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":572.05971875,"end":578.5734687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":572.2959687499999,"end":574.5065937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":574.5065937500001,"end":574.5234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":575.83971875,"end":575.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":575.85659375,"end":576.12659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":577.0209687500001,"end":597.35534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":580.5815937500001,"end":585.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.35534375,"end":601.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":601.55721875,"end":646.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":607.61534375,"end":609.2353437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.2859687499999,"end":609.31971875},{"speaker":"S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對不對?那四分之一這樣的比例到底是不是合理啊?"},{"start":557.502,"end":560.566,"text":"會不會就是軟體不夠用啊?沒有真正讓他學習的東西才機率降低嘛?這個詳細的情形齁 這個可以給文煥 因為這個幫老師要用的教育不只是AI啦 老師在教學軟體上他只要提出建議經過整個我們這個組織"},{"start":571.9,"end":585.572,"text":"教育及文化委員會第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案 條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第18人擬具:「偏遠地"},{"start":597.403,"end":602.125,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12屆第13屆第14屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第20屆第20屆第21屆第21屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22"},{"start":626.098,"end":653.801,"text":"學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。 更多的這些軟體的預算。最後還是要感謝潘副部長這八年來對教育部業務的付出。相信只要部長在這一天應該有都我們會有共識持續的拉近城鄉差距的這個落差以預防未來的數位落差甚至是智慧落差努力幫我們向行政院徵請支援不管是哪一天好不好期待部長帶來好消息謝謝委員委員剛提到那個有關軟硬體還有國際的我請志柯是這邊整理後再跟委員報告謝謝請委員指導因為你這方面真的很專業好謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152020","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152020","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db175b4ca8e6741015be12ebde737ab3c1955be169921a0a7170c1acf7fe19f66a45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:54:48 - 10:04:16","影片長度":"00:09:28","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員柯志恩等17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（詢答及處理，委員郭國文等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-10"},"duration":568,"end_time":"2024-05-02T10:04:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:54:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":221,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時54分）謝謝主席。是不是請部長？"],["主席：我們再請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，現在電價的問題，當然國民黨或是民眾黨開始說，如果不遵照他們的決議，明天電業法要逕付二讀修法，未來調整電價將經由立法院同意，如果沒有就要凍結預算，未來在審預算的時候要杯葛。對於這樣的說法，你在部長這個位子這麼久了，未來如果是這樣處理的話，該怎麼應對？"],["王部長美花：第一個，現在電價的審議按照法律規定，由中央主管機關定之，我們也設立了審議委員會。這個審議委員會坦白講，裡面有專家學者、相關的工商團體以及消費團體，這個部分經過非常細膩的討論。譬如說，這一次的電價事實上經過前段縝密的規劃，到大會討論的時候都還有做一些修改。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒錯，部長，這是現在的電業法……"],["王部長美花：是，現在電業法的審查方式。"],["陳委員亭妃：可是現在要逕付二讀，要修的是未來電價要送到立法院審議通過才能漲。"],["王部長美花：對，我……"],["陳委員亭妃：你覺得這樣的做法……而且他們明天可能要抽出逕付二讀。在這樣的狀況之下，在你的專業角度，你的感覺是什麼？你的看法是什麼？"],["王部長美花：我們當然認為現在的機制比較好、比較對，因為在審議會裡面會就台電的成本等等考量，然後判斷要怎麼調整。如果還要到立法院同意，整個時間會銜接不了，而且非常有可能，比如說審議會說是A方案，立法院改成B方案，這樣的話，未來審議會的機制會變成比較奇怪的情形。"],["陳委員亭妃：可是他說如果沒有過，如果你們不照走就要杯葛預算，這當中怎麼辦？"],["王部長美花：我想國會理性問政，我們行政機關努力做事情，為了國家好，大家應該不要有黨派的爭議。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，電價現在開始肯定會吵不完，對不對？一定會吵不完。如果你們執意一定要依照電價委員會的審議結果漲電價的話，我相信未來整個立法院一定是吵翻天。我覺得還是要溝通，該怎麼溝通還是要溝通，因為520之前跟520之後，對整個執政團隊的態度跟未來的方向都有很大的影響，我們在立法院已經第5屆，我們看了那麼多，知道沒有溝通未來大家可能就是一場混戰，最後什麼都過不了，什麼都做不了，這不是人民之福。我還是認為在520之前，部長做一天和尚要敲一天鐘，還是要溝通，否則對整個人民未來的方向都不利，我認為溝通才是上上之策。","我再請教部長，那一天部長到臺南，我們經濟委員會特地下去，可是從你們回復給我們的，我覺得我們委員會下去有什麼用？還不是一樣。你們今天對於麻豆工業區污水處理的部分，你知道嗎？哪有一個新興工業區沒有設污水處理？這是什麼狀況？你說舊有的OK，新的工業區沒有設污水處理，市政府也沒編列預算，就整個工業區擺在那裡，這到底是怎麼一回事啊？是你們的問題，還是地方的問題？然後那一天有理事長提出來，你們回文給我說，當下是給工業區一個期待，結果回來以後中央發了一個文說3月21號已經公告遴選的結果，所以是由舊的工業區開始，包括永康、仁德，麻豆因為新興是在候補，這是什麼狀態啊？表示我們經濟委員會下去就沒有用啊！就因為我們大家知道沒有嘛，所以才拜託經濟部要來協助，結果還是一樣的答案，那幹嘛？我們經濟委員會下去幹嘛？"],["王部長美花：跟委員報告，這個部分，事實上，我本來就跟同仁約下午會針對看過以後的所有問題走一遍，看怎麼協助，至於委員剛才提到的協助設污水場這個部分，我們同仁講應該是按照原來的規定有一個收件的時間機制……"],["陳委員亭妃：當然啊！"],["王部長美花：過了之後，因為這個不會只有一年，未來怎麼樣再增加這個部分，我會再跟同仁討論一下。"],["陳委員亭妃：部長，它是一個新興工業區，你不覺得很扯？新興工業區沒有污水處理系統，這誇張到了極點，然後整個都停擺在那裡，我們現在在鼓勵大家要設廠，結果一個工業區停擺在那裡。第二、我們看到柳科環保園區廠商協進會的理事長的提案，他說有啊，3月27號就有作成決議，如果有作成決議，4月22號還要來我們經濟委員會，理事長還說都沒有得到任何訊息，你們這是什麼態度啊？給我們的資料就是這個。"],["李總經理丁來：委員報告，有關柳科水池的問題，基本上，我們和經發局要再跟廠商聯誼會來討論，因為目前來講，柳科的供水是直接由烏山頭水場的管線直接供水，這沒有問題，廠商擔心的是缺水的時候……"],["陳委員亭妃：就是缺水啊！因為有蓄水池啊，有蓄水桶、有蓄水裝置，結果都用不到。"],["李總經理丁來：是，所以這部分，我們就跟經發局、廠商聯誼會來討論怎麼樣來改善。"],["陳委員亭妃：這還是我們政府花錢去做的欸，很好笑耶！政府花錢去做，結果沒有在用嫌惡設施，是這樣嗎？"],["李總經理丁來：報告委員，原來這個部分是市政府的設施，後來我們有跟他談，後來接管，所以接管這個部分，我們跟經發局、廠商聯誼會來討論未來怎麼改善，這個部分我們會來處理。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，還有另外一個，就是現在私人開發的工業區，臺南很多啦，但是就是路權的部分、公共設施的管理，所有都是上面踢下面、下面踢上面，部長那天講得很清楚，我告訴你，光剛剛三個問題，我約5月6號早上9點，我們一次去把它處理清楚，因為部長說你要重新走一遍嘛。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，那你走一遍之後，5月6號我們到現場，我要答案，我覺得我們都在拚速度、拚效率，我們叫這些中小企業要拚天下、要去接訂單，結果我們政府給人家的，尤其南部都好像自己事情自己解決，我覺得這是不對的！"],["王部長美花：沒有，沒有，我們其實非常重視那樣的溝通，相關的議題，我們也會先請同仁研究。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，5月9號9點我會排三場，那再麻煩部長，我們就一次把它看清楚，然後你們的答案在哪裡，再麻煩一下，否則，我覺得經濟委員會下去得到的卻是這個問題。還有一個缺工，現在中小企業全部都缺工，缺工要怎麼解決也是大問題，謝謝。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["主席：謝謝。","繼續請林岱樺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":510,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-10","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","賴士葆","邱議瑩","張智倫","郭國文","陳亭妃","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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bicyn 明天這個電業法要進一步二讀要修法要經由立法院來同意未來調整電價一定要經由立法院來同意那如果沒有的話就要凍結預算未來在審預算的時候要來做一個杯葛動作那你覺得這樣的一個說法我想部長你在這個位置這麼久了我想你的感覺跟未來如果是這樣的一個處理的話該怎麼去應對"},{"start":61.206,"end":61.346,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":85.066,"end":85.106,"text":"賴主席"},{"start":100.814,"end":115.561,"text":"通過,那你覺得這樣的一個做法,而且他明天就可能要進步二度嗎?要抽出進步二度嗎?那在這樣的一個狀況之下,在你的專業角度,你的感覺是什麼?"},{"start":116.161,"end":120.785,"text":"我們的看法是什麼?我們當然是認為現在的機制是比較好、比較對的啦。那因為這個部分就,裡面在審議會又就台電的成本等等的去做考量,然後來判斷要怎麼調整。那如果這個還要到立法院同意的時候,那這個整個的時間,"},{"start":135.418,"end":160.094,"text":""},{"start":160.501,"end":171.388,"text":"adequate to the policy of the National Assembly, we, the administrative bodies, will do our best to ensure the well-being of our country."},{"start":177.858,"end":192.636,"text":"adequate?一定會炒不完如果你們執意就是一定要依照電價委員會的審議來漲電價的話那麼我相信未來在整個立法院一定是炒翻天我覺得還是要溝通啊"},{"start":193.337,"end":194.158,"text":"adequ."},{"start":194.158,"end":217.713,"text":"該怎麼溝通還是要溝通啊。因為這520之前跟520之後他所面臨的整個執政團隊的一個態度跟未來的方向其實都有很大的影響所以我還是希望因為總是我們在立法院已經是第五屆了我們看了那麼多沒有溝通未來就是可能"},{"start":218.985,"end":219.185,"text":"議員柯志恩"},{"start":237.585,"end":249.667,"text":""},{"start":250.111,"end":276.084,"text":""},{"start":276.277,"end":292.428,"text":"你知道嗎哪有一個工業區新興工業區沒有設污水處理這是什麼地方啊這是什麼狀況你說舊有的OK新的工業區沒有設污水"},{"start":293.695,"end":319.343,"text":""},{"start":319.72,"end":348.16,"text":"發了一個文說那3月21號已經公告領選的結果所以是由舊的工業區開始包括永康仁德然後把它都因為新興是在候補這是什麼狀態啊那表示我們經濟委員會下去就沒有用啊就因為我們大家知道就沒有嘛所以才拜託我們經濟部要來協助嘛結果還是一樣的答案那幹嘛"},{"start":349.343,"end":351.124,"text":"那我們經濟委員會下去幹嘛?那這個部分事實上我今天下午我就本來跟同仁約下午會針對去的所有的問題我們會走一遍那怎麼協助那至於委員剛才提到的那個我們對協助涉汙水廠這個部分那如果我們同仁講應該是按照原來的這個規定有一個收建的時間機制那過了之後那未來"},{"start":377.245,"end":391.571,"text":"因為這個不會只有一年那未來怎麼樣再增加這個部分我會再跟同仁討論一下部長他是一個新興的工業區你會不會覺得很扯新興工業區沒有污水處理系統這誇張到了極點然後整個都停擺在那裡我們現在在鼓勵大家要設廠結果一個工業區停擺在那裡第二個"},{"start":405.003,"end":418.849,"text":"我們看到柳科環保園區廠商協經會的提案李市長的提案然後他說有啊這個3月27號就有做成決議如果有做成決議4月22號還要來我們這個經濟委員會我們李市長還說都沒有得到任何訊息你們這是什麼態度啊給我們的資料就是這個"},{"start":431.786,"end":446.96,"text":"委員報告吼,有關那個柳科那個水池的問題吼,因為基本上我們要跟那個經發局再跟廠商的聯誼會大家來討論,因為目前來講柳科的供水是直接由吳山陀結廠的管系直接供水都沒有問題,那廠商擔心的是缺水的時候,"},{"start":447.58,"end":449.962,"text":"就是缺水啊,因為有蓄水池啊,你有蓄水桶,有蓄水裝置,結果都用不到。是,所以這部分我們要跟經發局跟廠商聯誼會來討論,怎麼樣來改善這個措施。還在跟政府開展去做的呢,有好笑嗎?政府開展去做,結果沒在用。"},{"start":465.658,"end":488.728,"text":"包括原來這個部分是市政府的設施啦,後來我們有跟他談,後來接管,所以接管這個部分我們跟經發局跟廠商聯理會來討論,後來怎麼改善,這個部分我們會來做一個處理。好,還有另外一個,就是我們現在私人開發的工具,台南很多啦,但是就是那個入權的部分,公共設施的管理,"},{"start":489.648,"end":517.005,"text":"所有就是上面踢下面下面踢上面部長那天講得很清楚我告訴你光剛剛三個問題我約五月六號早上九點我們一次去把它處理清楚因為部長說你要重新走一遍嘛那走一遍之後五月六號我們到現場我要答案我覺得我們都在拼速度拼效率"},{"start":518.137,"end":530.079,"text":"而結果我們叫這些中小企業要拚天下,要去接電話打電話。結果我們的政府讓人家尤其南部都好像自己事情自己解決。"},{"start":531.485,"end":559.054,"text":"我覺得這是不對的我們其實非常重視那樣的一個溝通那相關的議題呢我們也會我先請同仁先研究5月6號9點我會排三場那再麻煩我們就一次把它看清楚啦然後你們的答案在哪裡啦再麻煩一下否則我覺得經濟委員會下去得到的資料卻是這個問題還有一個缺工現在中小企業全部都缺工"},{"start":560.964,"end":565.299,"text":""}]}},{"id":"152019","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152019","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db11a7c19e21667898ad5e9ec982727c87755be169921a0a717b530526dddbaabce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐巧芯","委員發言時間":"09:46:01 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09:57:22","影片長度":"00:11:21","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「外交部如何構建友善工作環境暨人員心理輔導具體做法」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-17"},"duration":681,"end_time":"2024-05-02T09:57:22+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:46:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":158,"blocks":[["徐委員巧芯：（9時46分）謝謝主席，我們有請吳部長。"],["主席（陳委員永康代）：有請吳部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：徐委員早。"],["徐委員巧芯：部長，很遺憾沒有辦法在這裡再跟你做更多、太多的質詢，但是我想問你，從2018年開始到現在，您自認為在部長這個職位上面，您做得好或是不好？做得好的話，哪裡做得好？做得不好的話，自認為哪裡還有可以檢討的地方？"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝委員的垂詢。到現在為止，我到外交部已經六年出頭了，從進外交部到現在，每一件事情我都非常認真在處理，至於好或者是不好，我想就留給國人來做評論。"],["徐委員巧芯：好的。國人打分數的部分，無外乎是希望從外交上面能夠換到很多經濟成果，比方說，先前我們在簽訂萊豬的時候，很多人都很期待可能會有BTA的簽署、可能會能夠加入IPEF。請問部長，您已經即將要卸任了，在這兩個主要經濟體的加入項目上面，我們何時會有進度呢？"],["吳部長釗燮：跟委員報告一下，我們臺灣如果要跟其他國家有更多的貿易往來，或者在政治上有更好的氣氛，遵循國際的法規是一個必要的作法，也因此我們在進口或者是出口這些相關產品的時候，就是必須遵守相關的法規，依照科學的證據來處理相關進出口的工作。"],["徐委員巧芯：這個我們都瞭解。"],["吳部長釗燮：有關於我們臺灣跟美國之間的經貿往來，我們的21世紀貿易倡議，第一階段已經簽了，現在正在討論第二階段，第二個就是避免雙重課稅（Avoidance of Double Taxation），現在已經進入到緊鑼密鼓的階段，這些都能夠讓我們臺灣跟美國之間的經貿關係非常加強。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以我們可以說，簽了萊豬協議之後有這樣子一方面的經貿進展，但是對於包含雙邊的BTA、IPEF……"],["吳部長釗燮：我想委員剛剛所說簽的萊豬協議，這個好像跟事實是有一些不同的地方。我們如果說要遵循國際的貿易法規的話，我們就不能夠針對其他國家的這些產品有歧視性的作為。"],["徐委員巧芯：瞭解，但是因為人民的期待，我們看一般人民的期待，您可以解釋，但一般人民的期待，他們會認為是不是簽了萊豬協議之後……"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有簽萊豬協議，委員剛剛所說……我剛剛有說，我剛剛所說的就是21世紀貿易倡議，Avoidance of Double Taxation……"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，我瞭解您的說法了，就是簽訂萊豬跟這些IPEF以及BTA……"],["吳部長釗燮：我想委員所說的簽訂萊豬這個說法應該要做改變，拜託委員稍微做一個改變。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK，好，沒問題。"],["吳部長釗燮：比如說，你有去美國，我有去美國，我們很多人都去美國，我們去美國所享用的這些豬肉都沒有問題……"],["徐委員巧芯：我說的是民眾一般來講的……"],["吳部長釗燮：如果說我們去美國所享用的這些產品都沒有問題，為什麼我們回到臺灣就會有問題？"],["徐委員巧芯：部長，可以，我理解您的說法，但我只是從民眾的角度來說，許多民眾會誤以為好不好？我用誤以為簽訂萊豬之後可能有BTA、可能有IPEF……"],["吳部長釗燮：我才說沒有簽訂萊豬協議，這個說法要改變。"],["徐委員巧芯：您認為沒有，就是這麼簡單。"],["吳部長釗燮：就是我們有21世紀貿易倡議，已經簽了一部分了，現在正在討論Avoidance of Double Taxation……"],["徐委員巧芯：瞭解。再來，美方對於臺灣使用能源，多次在美國商會提到有關臺灣電力的問題、能源轉型的落後，外交部是怎麼跟美方來溝通這件事情呢？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個部分的主責單位是經濟部，至於能源是否足夠，如果看看現在的儲備率的話，我相信委員也應該會感受到我們的電力是相當充足的。"],["徐委員巧芯：我是沒有感受到相當充足，因為4月15號北北基差點要大停電、大限電。"],["吳部長釗燮：數目字就在那邊。"],["徐委員巧芯：4月15號差點大限電的事情是擺在所有人眼前。再來，烏克蘭戰爭至今，請問我們提供了多少金援？"],["吳部長釗燮：如果要把所有的這些物資、一般民眾的捐獻，以及政府這邊的支出加起來，大概有一億出頭美元。"],["徐委員巧芯：一億出頭美元？"],["吳部長釗燮：嗯，包括民眾的捐助……"],["徐委員巧芯：有一些金援就我知道也不是從烏克蘭來協助，可能是透過其他國家協助再轉進烏克蘭，有包含在這1億美元裡面嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：全部都包括。"],["徐委員巧芯：全部都包括了。那我想請問一下，當蕭美琴準副總統出訪捷克的時候，我方有沒有就協助烏克蘭的部分，承諾未來要提供任何的資源呢？這個問題我希望您能夠誠實地回答。"],["吳部長釗燮：很誠實的跟委員回答，蕭副總統當選人去捷克的時候，沒有去做任何的承諾，這些都是我們外交部跟這些其他國家在做討論的，譬如說，烏克蘭的政府現在跟我們政府之間是沒有直接的關係，如果要協助的話，能夠透過這些友善的國家，譬如像波蘭、捷克、斯洛伐克、立陶宛等等，可以跟他們一起合作進入到烏克蘭、協助烏克蘭的這些建設，目前都是這樣子在做。"],["徐委員巧芯：所以它的時間點上面，就是我們在跟捷克討論到的相關時間點上面……"],["吳部長釗燮：都一直在討論，跟蕭副總統當選人去那邊沒有關係。"],["徐委員巧芯：跟烏克蘭的……跟蕭副總統去的時候沒有重疊到？"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有關係。"],["徐委員巧芯：是沒有關係還是時間沒有重疊？"],["吳部長釗燮：就是說沒有關係，這個是我們外交部一直在跟我們的友善國家在做討論的，跟蕭副總統當選人去沒有關係。"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我希望您今天的說法能夠記得，因為之後或許會有更多的紀錄揭露出來。"],["吳部長釗燮：如果說要用網路上面的假消息，這個就不好。"],["徐委員巧芯：不是、不是，我一定會用最真實的消息。部長怎麼看待，我們看到好幾個民調裡面，我們出示一下，像這個是美麗島電子報所做的民調，民眾最不滿意的部會首長，當然您不是第一名，還沒有做到那麼差，第一名是經濟部長王美花，第二名是數發部長唐鳳，第三名是NCC主委，再來是衛福部長薛瑞元，再來是王國材，這幾個我覺得都相對真的滿差的，但下一個是您，所以您怎麼看待自己的負面很高，您覺得原因是為什麼呢？在31位閣員裡面選取11位去做評比裡面，您是第6位民眾希望愈快換掉愈好的部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：這個只是其中的一個民意調查而已，我也看過其他的民意調查，我是在內閣之中被認為表現最好的，不滿意度最低的。"],["徐委員巧芯：我也想冒昧請教一下是哪一個民調？"],["吳部長釗燮：我想委員很會使用網路，你去網路上找一下。"],["徐委員巧芯：因為我沒看過，所以我要問你啊！"],["吳部長釗燮：我想網路上的這些資料對我們的外交部同仁來講，這些對他們來講是很大的鼓勵。"],["徐委員巧芯：OK。你們下次要記得記一下，因為如果我問，你們都不知道，都沒有幫自己辯護，我也是愛莫能助。","再來，我們再看下一個，根據台灣議題研究中心網路調查，您也是國安國防團隊裡面負面聲量最高的，可能的原因包含，您先前8年來斷交10個國家「斷交部長」的這個說法，還有在立院質詢的時候拍桌，這些都不是我講的，是新聞上面所說的，繼續擔任國安要職，民眾果然是不買單的，上面有3位，有吳釗燮部長、未來的部長顧立雄以及蔡明彥局長，這3個人裡面的負面聲量比較，這是另外一個叫做TPOC的網路討論，國安國防的人選，您的負面聲量高達28,489，跟其他2位比起來，高出非常多，您覺得是什麼原因呢？"],["吳部長釗燮：我不確定是什麼原因，但是網路上面的這些調查，的確是有很多包括對政府的官員，對立法委員也有，至於我在立法院裡面接受委員質詢的時候，我都希望能夠照實來說，但是我最擔心的一件事情，就是當中國在欺負我們的時候，我們的立法委員是補進來踢一腳。"],["徐委員巧芯：誰是補進來踢一腳的立法委員呢？你可以告訴我們嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個部分就由委員自己去想。"],["徐委員巧芯：你不能說立法委員踢了一腳，又不告訴我們是誰啊！"],["吳部長釗燮：有！"],["徐委員巧芯：那是誰呢？"],["吳部長釗燮：有！"],["徐委員巧芯：誰啊？"],["吳部長釗燮：我已經說了，有！"],["徐委員巧芯：是誰啊？"],["吳部長釗燮：就有啊！"],["徐委員巧芯：主席，不好意思喔！因為今天我們的外交部長在我們的國會殿堂上面說了，有立法委員、不知名的立法委員配合中國大陸踢了中華民國一腳，我想這是對中華民國所有立法委員相當嚴厲的指控，所以我想部長應該要負責任地說出他們的名字，讓民眾……"],["吳部長釗燮：是，你可以去告我藐視國會。"],["徐委員巧芯：還沒通過，如果通過會告。"],["吳部長釗燮：趕快去告、趕快去告！"],["徐委員巧芯：但是你應該要讓民眾來以示公評。"],["吳部長釗燮：是，沒有錯！"],["徐委員巧芯：您所說出的這些委員是不是配合中國大陸去踹中華民國一腳，還是您不負責任地提出說有委員……"],["吳部長釗燮：我沒有不負責任。"],["徐委員巧芯：有委員去踢中華民國一腳，但又不願意說……"],["吳部長釗燮：每一次在我們遭受到中國最嚴厲侵害的時候，如果看一看我們國會裡面的這些狀況的話，我相信委員會贊成我的說法。"],["徐委員巧芯：那到底是誰呢？"],["吳部長釗燮：我剛剛已經說了。"],["徐委員巧芯：我就很好奇啊！"],["吳部長釗燮：我剛剛已經說了。"],["徐委員巧芯：你沒有說啊！你一直說你說了……"],["吳部長釗燮：有！"],["徐委員巧芯：我沒聽到任何一個名字啊！那我一個一個點名好不好？我們現場好多委員，是洪申翰委員嗎？"],["洪委員申翰：你質詢就質詢……"],["徐委員巧芯：我就一個一個點名嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：我想委員……"],["徐委員巧芯：那是沈伯洋委員嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：我想委員最快的方式就是去告我藐視國會。"],["徐委員巧芯：是陳冠廷委員嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：趕快去告我藐視國會！"],["徐委員巧芯：是馬文君委員嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：趕快去告我藐視國會！"],["徐委員巧芯：是徐巧芯委員嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：趕快去告我藐視國會！"],["徐委員巧芯：是陳永康委員嗎？"],["吳部長釗燮：趕快去告我藐視國會！"],["徐委員巧芯：好，我最後要告訴您，如果您要在國會殿堂上面指控有任何一位立法委員配合中國大陸，你就應該要負責任地把名字講出來，否則這就是對全體立法委員的不尊重。"],["吳部長釗燮：這個就是藐視國會，所以你可以去告我藐視國會。"],["徐委員巧芯：謝謝大家，謝謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：好，謝謝委員。"],["徐委員巧芯：會的，以後會通過的，謝謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：好，謝謝。"],["主席：我們下面請馬文君委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-17","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","徐巧芯","洪申翰","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","林楚茵","羅智強","黃仁","林憶君"],"page_start":73,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「外交部如何構建友善工作環境暨人員心理輔導具體做法」，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1133801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.52034375,"end":3.00096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.30034375,"end":5.0259687500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.0934687499999995,"end":5.32971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.57784375,"end":11.185343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.539718750000002,"end":12.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.41721875,"end":31.739093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.21159375,"end":51.24659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.36471875,"end":81.26721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":82.12784375000001,"end":131.79096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.71471875,"end":107.86221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.80596875,"end":117.68346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.74659375,"end":120.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.02909375,"end":121.07534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.71096875,"end":131.09909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.85846875000001,"end":142.11846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":139.97534375,"end":158.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.61409375000002,"end":157.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.98096875000002,"end":171.63284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":169.79346875000002,"end":178.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.80159375000002,"end":173.79284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.27784375000002,"end":184.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":179.24346875,"end":180.32346875000002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我們有請吳部長有請吳部長徐委員長"},{"start":11.824,"end":31.439,"text":"部長很遺憾沒有辦法在這裡再跟你做更多太多的質詢但是我想問你從2018年開始到現在您自認為在部長這個職位上面您做得好或是不好做得好的話哪裡做得好做得不好的話自認為哪裡還有可以檢討的地方"},{"start":32.59,"end":47.942,"text":"非常謝謝委員的這個垂詢到現在為止我已經到外交部已經6年出頭了那從進外交部到現在每一件事情我都非常的認真在處理那至於好或者是不好那我想就留給國人來做這個評論"},{"start":51.365,"end":69.71,"text":"好的那國人打分數的部分呢無外乎是希望從外交上面能夠換到很多的經濟成果比方說呢先前我們在簽訂萊豬的時候很多人都很期待可能會有BTA的簽署可能會能夠加入IPEF"},{"start":70.47,"end":80.956,"text":"那請問,部長您已經即將要卸任了,在這兩個主要的經濟體的這個加入項目上面,我們何時會有進度呢?"},{"start":82.502,"end":104.272,"text":"跟委員報告一下就是說我們台灣如果說要跟其他的國家有更多的這些貿易往來或者是說在政治上有更好的這個氣氛遵循國際的法規這個是一個必要的做法那也因此我們在進口或者是出口這些相關的產品的時候就是必須要遵守相關的法規依照科學的證據來處理相關的這個進出口的"},{"start":108.074,"end":122.185,"text":"有關於我們台灣跟美國之間的這種經貿的往來我們的那個21世紀貿易倡議第一階段已經簽了那現在正在討論第二階段第二個是就是避免雙重課稅那現在已經進入到緊鑼密鼓的階段這些都能夠讓我們台灣跟美國之間的這個經貿關係能夠非常加強"},{"start":131.952,"end":148.877,"text":"所以我們可以說簽了萊豬協議之後有這樣子一方面的經貿的進展但是對於包含是雙邊的BTA跟IDF我想委員剛剛所說的簽了萊豬協議這個好像是跟事實是有一些不同的地方"},{"start":149.877,"end":150.518,"text":"我瞭解您的說法了就是"},{"start":179.301,"end":180.202,"text":"簽訂萊豬跟這些國會IATF以及BTA"},{"start":194.498,"end":198.119,"text":"我理解您的說法,但我只是從民眾的角度來說,許多的民眾會誤以為簽訂的萊豬之後可能有BPGA,可能有IPF"},{"start":216.325,"end":221.086,"text":"美方對於台灣使用能源,多次在美國商會提到了有關台灣電力的問題,能源轉型的落後,在外交部上面是怎麼跟美方來溝通這件事情的呢?"},{"start":238.51,"end":262.72,"text":"這個部分主責的單位是我們的經濟部那至於能源是否足夠如果說看看現在的那個儲備率的話我相信委員也應該會感受到我們的電力是相當充足的我是沒有感受到相當充足因為4月15號北北七差點要大停電大限電4月15號差點大限電的事情是擺在所有人的眼前"},{"start":263.32,"end":263.802,"text":"再來,烏克蘭戰爭至今,請問我們提供了多少的晶圓?"},{"start":269.083,"end":294.999,"text":"如果要把所有的這些物資一般民眾的捐獻以及政府這邊的支出加起來大概有1億出頭美元1億出頭的美元那有一些的金援啊就我知道也不是從烏克蘭來協助可能是透過其他的國家協助那再轉進烏克蘭有包含在這1億美元裡面嗎應該是全部都包括了嘛"},{"start":296.9,"end":311.645,"text":"那我想請問一下當蕭美琴準副總統出訪捷克的時候我方有沒有就協助烏克蘭的部分承諾未來要提供任何的資源呢這個問題我希望您能夠誠實的回答"},{"start":312.205,"end":329.739,"text":"很誠實的跟委員回答蕭副總統當選人他去捷克的時候沒有去做任何的承諾那這些都是我們外交部跟這些其他國家在做討論的比如說烏克蘭的政府現在跟我們政府之間是沒有直接的關係"},{"start":330.6,"end":331.081,"text":"那目前都是這樣子在做"},{"start":345.675,"end":354.201,"text":"所以他的時間點上面就是說我們在跟捷克討論到的相關時間點上面跟烏克蘭的跟蕭副總統去的時候沒有關係沒有重疊到沒有關係是沒有關係還是時間沒有重疊"},{"start":362.426,"end":365.248,"text":"我希望您今天的說法能夠記得因為之後或許會有更多的記錄揭露出來那如果說要用網路上面的假消息這個就不好"},{"start":383.783,"end":384.183,"text":"那部長怎麼看待?"},{"start":414.064,"end":415.666,"text":"民眾希望想要越快換掉越好的部長"},{"start":432.904,"end":449.195,"text":"這個只是其中的一個民意調查而已我也看過其他的民意調查我是在內閣之中被認為表現最好的不滿意度最低的我也想冒昧請教一下是哪一個民調我想委員會使用網路去網路上找一下"},{"start":449.415,"end":453.036,"text":"再來我們再看下一個是根據台灣議題研究中心網路調查您也是國安國防團隊裡面負面聲量最高的"},{"start":475.683,"end":503.334,"text":"可能的原因包含是您先前8年來斷交10個國章斷交部長的這個說法還有在立院質詢的時候拍桌這些都不是我講的是新聞上面所說的那繼續擔任國防要職呢民眾國人是不買單的上面有三位嘛有吳釗燮部長顧立雄未來的部長跟蔡明彥局長這三個人裡面的負面聲量比較這是另外一個叫做TPOC的網路討論"},{"start":505.815,"end":514.826,"text":"國安國防的人選您的負面聲量高達28489跟其他兩位比起來高出非常的多您覺得是什麼原因呢?"},{"start":516.172,"end":544.665,"text":"我不確定是什麼原因但是這個網路上面的這些調查的確是有很多包括對政府的官員對立法委員也有那至於我在立法院裡面接受委員質詢的時候我都希望能夠照此來說但是我最擔心的一件事情就是說當中國在欺負我們的時候我們的立法委員是補進來踢一腳那誰是補進來踢一腳的立法委員呢這個部分就由委員自己去想"},{"start":545.393,"end":547.476,"text":"主席不好意思因為因為今天我們的外交部長在我們的國會殿堂上面說了有"},{"start":566.144,"end":566.604,"text":"你可以告我藐視國會"},{"start":590.661,"end":602.587,"text":"還沒通過如果通過會告但是你應該要讓民眾來以示公平您所說出的這些委員是不是配合中國大陸去踹中華民國一腳還是您"},{"start":605.448,"end":629.591,"text":"我沒有不負責任每一次在我們遭受到中國最嚴厲的侵害的時候如果說看一看我們國會裡面的這些狀況的話我相信委員會贊成我的說法那到底是誰呢我就很好奇啊你沒有說啊你一直說你說了我沒聽到任何一個名字啊"},{"start":630.851,"end":657.51,"text":"那我一個一個點名好不好那是我們現場好多喔是洪森漢委員嗎是因為我一個一個點名嗎那是沈柏洋委員嗎我想委員最快的方式就是去告我藐視國會是陳冠廷委員嗎趕快去告我藐視國會是馬文君委員嗎趕快去告我藐視國會是徐巧芯委員嗎趕快去告我藐視國會是陳永康委員嗎"},{"start":658.251,"end":658.871,"text":"這就是藐視國會所以你可以去告我藐視國會"}]}},{"id":"152018","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152018","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db14d033d8333bd8456d575e50b9cd8685a55be169921a0a717aa242417b77be3175ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃秀芳","委員發言時間":"09:45:31 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09:56:36","影片長度":"00:11:05","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員王育敏等19人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【以上議案，如經復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-14"},"duration":665,"end_time":"2024-05-02T09:56:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:45:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":307,"blocks":[["黃委員秀芳：（9時45分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長好。兩個禮拜前，社環委員會有到彰化去考察，去看兒科也去偏鄉看地區醫院，我想請教部長，今天我們針對全民健康保險法修正草案要做一個討論，當然委員會在下個禮拜會辦公聽會，廣聽地方的意見。因為修法攸關所有的醫療界，還有全民的權益，所以我們希望能夠廣聽地方的意見以及所有學者專家的意見，我想請教部長，因為我們一直認為我們的點值如果低於一元的話，也就是每一點低於一元的時候，如果是由政府的公務預算來補足一元的話，我可以請教部長的意見嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：基本上在剛剛口頭報告的時候，我已經提到過了，因為如果一點一元、補到這樣程度的話，我們大概一年公務預算就要用掉一千一百多億，這只是用現在的量去估計而已。"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：但是我們現在並沒有一個好的方法去控制量的成長，除了在醫院的部分，健保署有跟各醫院去做協商，可能採取一些攤扣的方法來處理，其他並沒有，因為我們現在核刪的比例已經降低了，加上放大回推也沒有了。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，我想請教目前我們的目標如果是一點一元的話，剛剛部長有特別提到也許量會衝高……"],["薛部長瑞元：一定會。"],["黃委員秀芳：如果我們可以從量，就是說怎麼樣保值，讓我們的點值能夠維持在一元，量不要衝高，我覺得這可能可以去防止一些不必要的醫療浪費，我個人是這麼覺得啦，我不知道部長你怎麼看？"],["薛部長瑞元：這是必須要由大家來做討論的，因為如果這個預算是有限的，那就是量跟價的問題，我們現在要把價從平均零點九幾調到一元，也就是價上升，價上升的話，勢必量就必須要緊縮，量要緊縮的話，就是一些方法嘛！包括放大回推、核刪，另外就是斷頭等等，這個醫界要能夠接受，要不然的話，這會變成一個沒有止境的膨脹。"],["黃委員秀芳：可是這樣會變成，剛剛所說的量如果沒辦法控制的話，可能會變成我做越多、被砍得越多。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，量沒有辦法控制的話，就表示不能砍，或者砍了就不能增加，這個量就會暴增嘛！"],["黃委員秀芳：是。"],["薛部長瑞元：在健保裡面，過去是因為在總額預算制度之下，量的部分我們儘量不要限制過大，讓醫療機構可以比較好做事一點，但是這樣子就會造成點值下降，這是不得已的，在總額預算制度之下是這個樣子。"],["黃委員秀芳：部長，有時候我們會碰到一些問題，也許患者早上在這個醫院，下午可能又跑到另外一個醫院；早上可能做了一些檢查，下午到另外一家醫院可能又做了一些檢查。當然我們現在有把X光或是其他檢查的部分丟到雲端，也許下一家醫院看得到，但有時候還是會有重複做檢查的狀況。我的意思是說，如果我們的點值可以保障一點一元的話，那就可以針對不必要的浪費或不必要的重複檢查更加嚴格的去管控，我覺得也許可以達到我們現在想要的點值是一點一元。"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分的話，目前健保的資訊系統裡面大概都可以看得到，包括過去的一些檢查或者是過去所開的藥，所以重複的機會不大啦！除非這個醫師真的很懶，他都沒有去check病患在別家醫院最近或者同一天已經做過的部分。就這部分來講的話，當然健保可能會對於這種情形去做核刪，藉以減少這種重複檢查、重複開藥的情形，這是現在就已經有的機制。從這一個機制來看的話，也許它有達到它的目的，但是不可能變成一個新的、能夠再增加對於預算的控管。"],["黃委員秀芳：其實我碰到好幾個案例，就是有的民眾他可能到醫院或到診所去拿藥，他的藥不一定會吃啦，這也算是形成一種浪費……"],["薛部長瑞元：這是另外一種……"],["黃委員秀芳：所以我會覺得如果我們是要去保障點值一點一元的話，那我們可以從其他的地方著墨，一方面可能也讓民眾知道如果你去醫院看病的話，所有的檢查及所有的藥都是很珍貴的資源，就是要珍惜啦！再來就是針對不必要的浪費，可能我們就先去基層的診所看，如果沒辦法的話，再到醫學中心去，那就是分級醫療的部分。如果可以這樣子的話，是不是可以確保未來的點值是一點一元？"],["薛部長瑞元：剛剛委員提到的這些都是我們要做的、我們要努力的方向，也許現在沒有辦法做到盡善盡美，但是必須要持續地去推動。不過我沒有辦法說只要做了這個，就可以確保一點一元，這我沒有辦法說。"],["黃委員秀芳：好，我再請教部長，因為我們現在看到很多醫院靠的其實是業外收入，而不是醫療本身的收入盈餘，它是靠業外收入，可能靠美食街、靠停車場，其實我覺得這個都不正常，醫院應該就是針對民眾醫療的部分。我們也看到有的醫院是靠自費，可能就是自費的項目比較多，然後造成醫院的盈餘。雖然目前都有健保，但我看到有的民眾去開刀，醫師可能會跟他說健保的不好，自費的醫材可能會比較好，或者是健保的藥不好，可能會有一些副作用，自費的可能會比較好，類似這樣的狀況。當然醫院或者醫療器材隨著時間可能會有更好的藥或者是更先進的醫療方式，那當然都是我們樂見的，如果有健保的話，當然醫院有的是靠業外收入，有的是靠醫療本身的收入盈餘，這個好像也不是很正常。"],["薛部長瑞元：跟委員報告，這裡面可能有一個地方是有誤會的，業外收入當然就是停車場、美食街，那個是業外收入沒有錯，但是有關醫療本業部分的話，剛剛委員提到自費，事實上，在醫院的財報裡面，它有一個健保收入，在收入當中除了業外收入之外，就是醫務收入，醫務收入分為健保及非健保，非健保不等於是自費，因為如果是從公務預算裡面提出來一些計畫，或者是說像COVID疫情期間的時候，醫療費用是有公務預算補助的，它都會列入到非健保的收入，這個部分其實也不小，所以並不是那些非健保收入都是屬於自費的收入。"],["黃委員秀芳：當然，我們林林總總看到醫界的困境，其實很多醫界一直在反映點值過低，所以我們也希望透過今天的詢答，下禮拜一也會有一個公聽會，來廣聽各界的意見。"],["薛部長瑞元：我相信健保是需要改革的，目前的總額預算制度也存在了一些缺點，但是要怎麼樣改，可能不是只有單修這一個條文就能夠處理的。單修這一個條文，沒有其他的配套的話，可能會造成風險控管會更加厲害，搞不好健保3年之後就倒了，這樣是我們需要的嗎？","健保是臺灣非常珍貴的資產，讓民眾的安全，不管是主觀的安全感或者事實上在經濟上面不會因病而貧，這樣的社會安全支柱，我們覺得大家應該要珍惜，不要看到它哪一個地方不好，然後就大力地想要把它沖垮，我知道醫界也有人講說「健保不倒，臺灣不會好」，那個都是錯誤的。所以我想藉這個時間跟委員報告，也讓社會大眾能夠理解，這是一個非常需要去珍惜的資產。"],["黃委員秀芳：好。我們希望下禮拜的公聽會可以廣聽各界的意見，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["主席（涂委員權吉代）：接下來請王育敏委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-14","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","黃秀芳","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","劉建國","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","賴士葆","李彥秀","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","賴惠員","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；二、委員蘇清\n泉等27人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康\n保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.334093750000001,"end":5.684093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.51096875,"end":7.472843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.29909375,"end":12.83909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.957218750000003,"end":14.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.40846875,"end":15.10034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.15096875,"end":76.37346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.84596875000001,"end":79.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":79.74846875,"end":79.93409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.40659375,"end":80.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.25034375,"end":100.60596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.54346875,"end":95.91471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.01971875000001,"end":99.79596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.99409375,"end":105.90471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.83721875,"end":106.27596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.24221875,"end":126.47534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.52346875,"end":116.16471875},{"s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lapt��﹖"},{"start":61.357,"end":80.794,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":81.314,"end":100.204,"text":"我基本上這在剛剛恐龍報告的時候也已經提到過了,那因為如果說1.1元的話補到這樣的程度的話,我們大概一年就是公務預算就要用掉1100多億,那這只是用現在的量去估計而已,但是"},{"start":100.964,"end":101.424,"text":" bicylson"},{"start":116.954,"end":137.978,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":137.978,"end":167.978,"text":"​​​​​​"},{"start":167.978,"end":190.674,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":190.754,"end":211.508,"text":"essee 方法嘛。放大回推啦、核三啦、另外就是斷頭啦等等這些。這個依據要能夠接受。要不然的話這個是變成是一個沒有指定的膨脹。可是這樣會變成說有的就是剛量如果沒辦法控制的話可能會變成我做越多然後被砍的越多。"},{"start":212.208,"end":212.648,"text":"neteso"},{"start":229.497,"end":243.863,"text":" bicyn 量的部分的話我們盡量不要說限制過大,讓醫療機構可以比較好做事一點,但是這樣子就會造成電子下降。這是不得已在總預算制度之下是這個樣子。"},{"start":244.923,"end":265.196,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":265.196,"end":286.22,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":286.22,"end":301.954,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":302.227,"end":321.647,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":321.647,"end":343.319,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":343.819,"end":350.081,"text":" bicyn 其實我碰到好幾個就是說有的民眾他可能到醫院或到診所那他拿藥他的藥不一定會吃啦齁"},{"start":364.684,"end":384.531,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":384.531,"end":408.046,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":408.808,"end":426.638,"text":"這些剛剛委員提到的這些都是我們要做的,我們要努力的方向,也許現在沒有辦法做到盡善盡美,當然必須要持續的去推動,但是我沒有辦法說只要做了這一個的話,那就可以確保一點一點,這我沒有辦法說。"},{"start":427.498,"end":451.063,"text":"一、委員王育敏等19人擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案»案。我再請教部長,因為我們現在看到很多醫院,其實它靠的是業外的收入,它不是醫療本身的這個收入盈餘,它是靠業外收入,可能靠美食街,靠停車場,那其實我都覺得說這個都不正常,醫院它應該就是這個民眾的這個醫療的部分,那我們也看到有的醫院是靠自費,"},{"start":451.963,"end":452.223,"text":" bicyn 沈 沈"},{"start":467.193,"end":485.538,"text":""},{"start":485.938,"end":488.499,"text":"bedingt 這裡面可能會有一個地方是有誤會的。"},{"start":514.063,"end":541.326,"text":"閱外收入當然就是停車場、美食街那個是沒有錯是閱外收入但是醫療本業的部分的話剛剛委員提到說自費事實上在醫院的財報裡面它有一個健保收入收入裡面閱外收入之外的話就是醫務收入醫務收入分健保跟非健保非健保不等於是自費因為如果是從公務預算裡面提出來一些計畫"},{"start":542.307,"end":563.367,"text":" bicyn 或是說像那個COVID中間疫情期間的時候我們這個醫療費用是有公務預算補助的它都會列入到這個非健保的收入這個部分的話其實也不小所以並不是那些非健保收入都是屬於自費的收入"},{"start":563.527,"end":566.45,"text":"我相信就是說健保是需要改革的。目前的總額預算制度也存在了一些缺點。"},{"start":590.069,"end":612.588,"text":" bicyn 但是要怎麼樣改,可能不是只有單修這個條文就能夠處理的。單修這個條文沒有其他的配套的話,可能會造成那個風險的控管會更加厲害。搞不好健保三年之後就倒了。這樣是我們需要的嗎?健保是台灣一個非常珍貴的一個資產。"},{"start":615.45,"end":630.421,"text":"讓這個民眾的安全,不管是主觀的安全感或事實上的在經濟上面不會因病而病。這樣子的一個社會安全的自治,我們覺得說應該大家要珍惜。"},{"start":631.181,"end":634.402,"text":"essee to cherish this asset."},{"start":656.206,"end":659.295,"text":"好,那我們希望說下禮拜的公聽會可以廣聽各界的這個意見。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152017","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152017","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1d6cc98f2a9c1b6f5e12ebde737ab3c1955be169921a0a71707ff25990a71b8fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"謝衣鳯","委員發言時間":"09:45:42 - 09:54:44","影片長度":"00:09:02","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員柯志恩等17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（詢答及處理，委員郭國文等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-10"},"duration":542,"end_time":"2024-05-02T09:54:44+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:45:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":189,"blocks":[["謝委員衣鳯：（9時45分）主席好，我想要請王部長、李次長、還有中小及新創署的何署長。"],["主席：請以上三位，謝謝。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["謝委員衣鳯：其實經濟部的版本除了在第三十六條之二的部分我們有疑慮，其他都是原則上同意。但我認為就是在第三十六條之二，我們剛才也聽到幾位委員所說，剛才事前我也跟李次長做一些溝通，他們認為過去即便是提高也沒有辦法促成中小企業為員工加薪，我不知道這是原因還是結果？是你們不願意提高？因為我在學校上課的時候，連大學生都跟我說，如果我們中小企業提高租稅減免也只是1年而已，150%，但是他為青年加薪或者為員工加薪是每年都要提撥！所以你們只把扣抵額從130提撥到150，怎麼能有足夠的誘因讓企業為員工加薪呢，是不是？我們請次長說一下。"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，基本上我們修正前的中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二，當然是因為原來的適用門檻相對比較嚴格，可能就是因為這個啟動的條件太嚴格，所以之前適用的家數不是很多；但是我們這次修正其實是整個放寬了、幾乎是沒有任何的條件了，所以只要企業願意加薪的話，就可以適用這樣的租稅優惠。而且剛才委員講說這是1年的優惠，其實不是，只要企業逐年加薪都可以適用相關的租稅優惠措施。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我所謂的1年就是他今年加薪只有今年適用嘛，他不可能每年加薪，可是他每年所要負擔的……因為今年度的加薪，未來他所要負擔的勞健保提高等等都會在今年，如果他認為這個試算結果沒有足夠誘因的時候，他就不可能為員工加薪嘛！","其實我們剛才看到，不管是藍綠的委員都認為我們在租稅上面應該要給予企業足夠的誘因為員工加薪，如果財政部認為加薪的誘因不夠的話，那也不會造成稅損啊，既然不會造成稅損，為什麼我們不就在第三十六條之二直接提高，像國民黨的版本，我們就是從130提高到200；如果是30歲以下提高到220%，我認為這不可能造成多少稅損。如果企業願意為員工加薪，就會造成剛才郭委員所提到的，可能未來我們的薪資占GDP的比例可以逐年提高，是不是？"],["李次長慶華：委員剛才講的其實非常正確，但是我們也考慮到企業要不要為員工加薪，當然除了租稅的誘因之外，同樣的，剛才委員也有提到，員工加薪以後有一些成本也會相對提高，包含它要替員工提撥勞健保的費率會提高；另外，提撥退休金的額度也會提高，所以企業在適用租稅優惠的時候，他們會做相關的評量跟考慮。當然這個要看企業怎麼衡酌，願意為員工付出相關的……"],["謝委員衣鳯：我們今天訂定這個法律，其實我們是希望提供誘因。如果依財政部的想法，認為提供這個誘因會造成稅損的話，我認為財政部應該贊同提高扣抵的比率，因為即便是提高扣抵的比率也不會造成稅損。既然沒有造成稅損，如果未來有可能造成額外的誘因，讓企業願意為員工加薪的話，是不是代表政府的政策足夠誘導中小企業為員工加薪？畢竟中小企業占全體企業的98%，是不是？"],["李次長慶華：是，其實不是說沒有稅損，還是會有租稅的損失。"],["謝委員衣鳯：我知道，可是不是很多，其實……"],["李次長慶華：對，也許金額評估下來不是很大。"],["謝委員衣鳯：相對來說不是很多。"],["李次長慶華：對，但是……"],["謝委員衣鳯：既然稅損不是很多，如果這一條稅法裡面的扣抵額比率能夠提高的話，因為到5月20日就到期了，現在經濟部的版本是希望可以延長十年，我們是不是在延長十年的期間，看是不是可以增加足夠的誘因，讓中小企業為勞工加薪？如果有相關誘因的時候，畢竟我們還有電價的問題，對不對？你如果沒有在這些經營成本上給企業誘因的話，企業怎麼樣為員工加薪，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：是，也跟委員報告，其實我們這一次的修法，政府已經把130%提高到150%，等於公司支付……"],["謝委員衣鳯：才20%。"],["李次長慶華：對，公司支付了一定的薪資費用，政府也負擔將近三成的成本。各位委員的版本當然會提高這個比例。"],["謝委員衣鳯：這只有一年，其實企業為員工加薪以後，每年都是這個，不可能今年加了以後隔年又調回來，是不是？"],["李次長慶華：這個我們不確定。"],["謝委員衣鳯：不可能今年加了以後隔年又調回來，既然代表每一年都是維持這樣的水準，那你就要在第一年的扣抵額度給予足夠的誘因，是不是？"],["李次長慶華：是，謝謝委員。"],["謝委員衣鳯：如果有足夠的誘因，我認為企業才可能在各項成本都要墊高的情況下，願意為員工加薪。還有，我也想要順便問一下，這一次在臺美21世紀貿易倡議裡面，OTN有沒有提到？其實對於國內的企業或者是專業的經理人來講，他們在意的是雙重課稅，有沒有提到相關的議題？"],["李次長慶華：雙重課稅這件事情不會在21世紀貿易倡議裡面討論，因為臺美一定要透過簽署租稅協定來適用，21世紀貿易倡議裡面沒有談到租稅減免的事情。"],["謝委員衣鳯：沒有談到租稅相關的議題？"],["李次長慶華：對。"],["謝委員衣鳯：未來你們會在談租稅協定的時候提到嗎？"],["李次長慶華：對，現在是因為美方已經有相關的提案，眾議院也已經通過這個法案送到參議院做最後的決定，目前參議院在做最後的考量。如果美方的參議院大家都同意，願意修法並通過這個法案的話，我們就會跟美方啟動相關租稅協議的換文，還有後續的程序。"],["謝委員衣鳯：好，我希望我們趕快促成，因為這個是國際法人會共同注意到的相關問題，我也希望財政部的李次長帶回去財政部。其實我們的第三十六條之二或者是召委的第三十六條之四，即便是加入也沒有造成多少稅損，但是這樣扣抵以及減稅會不會造成企業為員工加薪，以及增加品牌發展的情況？我希望財政部帶回去跟行政院共同考量，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請陳亭妃委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":510,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-10","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","賴士葆","邱議瑩","張智倫","郭國文","陳亭妃","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","邱志偉","鍾佳濱","賴瑞隆","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","張嘉郡","黃國昌","陳超明","牛煦庭","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":419,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員柯志恩等\n17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬\n具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中\n小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業\n發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例\n部分條文修正草案」案；七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正\n草案」案；八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及\n第四十條條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、\n第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展\n條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例\n部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133801_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":1.9209687500000001,"end":2.5453437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.6297187500000003,"end":5.262218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.08909375,"end":9.447218750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.2915937500000005,"end":6.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.919718750000001,"end":10.56096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.898468750000003,"end":12.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.965968750000002,"end":11.590343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.176593750000002,"end":14.25659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.762843750000002,"end":70.06221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.45034375,"end":90.54846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.40471875,"end":110.44409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.74784375,"end":130.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.96409375000002,"end":132.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.68096875,"end":176.47596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":177.20159375,"end":215.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.03534375,"end":257.15534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":255.75471875000002,"end":291.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.04971875,"end":258.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.63096875,"end":310.02471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":310.02471875000003,"end":313.23096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.23096875000005,"end":363.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":313.33221875000004,"end":317.70284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.31596875,"end":363.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":363.63659375000003,"end":383.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":371.53409375,"end":372.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.30034375,"end":392.79659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.93721875,"end":385.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":393.08346875,"end":446.32409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.02409375,"end":395.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.27471875000003,"end":412.33784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.32409375000003,"end":446.35784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.35784375000003,"end":446.45909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":446.91471875,"end":493.23659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.76971875000004,"end":457.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":464.49846875000003,"end":466.42221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":493.81034375,"end":496.96596875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":496.96596875000006,"end":539.6259687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":539.8959687500001,"end":540.6215937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":541.97159375,"end":542.79846875}],"whisperx":[{"start":1.94,"end":11.969,"text":"主席好,我想要請王部長、李市長,還有我們中小更新創署的候書長。好,請以上三位,謝謝。"},{"start":15.401,"end":41.59,"text":"其實經濟部的那個版本除了在36條之二我們有疑慮的部分我其他都是原則上的同意但是我認為就是在36條之二我們剛才也聽到了幾位委員所說其實我覺得剛才在事前的時候我也跟理事長有做一些溝通他們認為說好像過去"},{"start":42.33,"end":69.771,"text":"adequ.是提高也沒有辦法促成中小企業為員工加薪喔那我不知道這是原因還是結果是你們不願意提高因為我在學校上課的時候連大學生都跟我說他說如果我們中小企業提高就是租稅減免也只是一年而已150%但是他為了"},{"start":70.572,"end":90.305,"text":"就是青年加薪或者是為員工加薪是每年都要提撥所以你們只把那個扣底額從130提撥到150怎麼能夠有足夠的誘因讓企業為員工加薪呢?是不是?我們請次長說一下好不好?"},{"start":92.532,"end":110.232,"text":"報告委員基本上因為我們以前舊的就是修正前的這個中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二當然是因為原來的門檻適用的門檻相對比較嚴格所以呢可能就是因為這個門檻啟動的條件太嚴格所以之前適用的這個加數不是很多"},{"start":110.993,"end":111.233,"text":"賴士葆等"},{"start":133.715,"end":134.416,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具"},{"start":156.113,"end":174.37,"text":"其實我們剛才看到的不管是藍綠的委員也好都認為說我們在租稅上面應該要給予足夠企業足夠的誘因為員工加薪那你如果認為就是說我們財政部如果認為說好像加薪的這個誘因不夠的話那"},{"start":177.694,"end":192.413,"text":"полне不會造成稅損啊。那既然不會造成稅損,為什麼我們不就在三十六條之二就直接提高?像國民黨的版本,我們就是從一百五、一百三提高到兩百嘛。那"},{"start":193.253,"end":194.695,"text":"adequ."},{"start":194.695,"end":215.432,"text":"如果是30歲以下提高到220%我認為這不可能造成多少的稅損但是如果企業願意為員工加薪的時候就會造成說剛才郭委員所提到的可能未來我們的薪資佔GDP可以逐年的提高啊是不是"},{"start":216.352,"end":237.826,"text":"委員剛才講的其實是非常正確的基本上就是當然因為企業但是我們也考慮到就是說因為企業要不要為員工加薪當然除了租稅的誘因之外但是同樣的就是剛才委員有提到就是說因為員工加薪以後他相對的有一些相對的成本也會相對提高包含他要替員工提撥勞健保的費率會提高然後另外呢他的提撥退休金的這個額度也會提高"},{"start":243.49,"end":244.731,"text":"adequate to the law."},{"start":261.561,"end":291.561,"text":""},{"start":292.242,"end":295.004,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案。"},{"start":309.158,"end":316.301,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。」案。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案。」案。"},{"start":329.565,"end":349.377,"text":""},{"start":349.377,"end":349.537,"text":"adequ."},{"start":349.537,"end":355.099,"text":"那如果有相關的誘因的時候,畢竟我們還有電價的問題,對不對?"},{"start":355.099,"end":362.941,"text":"那你如果沒有在這些經營成本上面給企業誘因的話,企業怎麼樣子為員工加薪啊?"},{"start":362.941,"end":363.741,"text":"對不對?"},{"start":363.741,"end":372.444,"text":"是,也跟委員報,其實我們這一次的修法也是政府因為已經把130提高到150%,等於就是公司我支付"},{"start":372.824,"end":392.31,"text":"adequate公司提供公司支付了一定的薪資費用政府也負擔了將近三成的成本當然委員如果要各位委員版本當然會因為這只有一年其實企業為員工加薪以後他是每年都是這個他不可能今年加以後隔年又調回來是不是"},{"start":393.932,"end":410.985,"text":"這個我們不確定是不是?然後那他不可能今年加了以後隔年又調回來所以他代表他每一年都是維持這樣子的一個水準的時候那你就要在第一年這個扣抵額度的時候給予足夠的誘因啊是不是?"},{"start":411.325,"end":411.365,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":426.785,"end":445.992,"text":"我也想要順便問一下,就是在這一次的台美21世紀貿易倡議這裡面,OTN有沒有提到其實對於國內的企業或者是對於專業的經理人來講,他在意的是雙重課稅,有沒有提到這個相關的?"},{"start":447.312,"end":456.436,"text":"三重退稅這件事情不會在21貿易倡議裡面討論,因為臺美的租稅協定基本上一定要透過這個所謂租稅協定的簽署來適用。那個21世紀貿易倡議裡面沒有談到租稅相關,那未來你們會在租稅協定的時候提出?"},{"start":466.239,"end":492.999,"text":"現在是因為那個就是美方他們其實已經有相關的提案在那個也通過了這個參議院的是眾議院眾議院已經通過這個法案送到參議院去做最後的決定那目前就是參議院這邊在做最後的考量那如果說美方那邊參議院已經大家都同意願意修法的話通過的話這個這個法案通過的話其實我們就會跟美方啟動那個相關的註冊協議的範文還有就是後續的程序"},{"start":493.88,"end":516.878,"text":"好,我希望我們趕快促成,因為這也是我認為就是說國際法人在這個上面共同會注意到的相關的問題。那我也希望就是財政部的理事長,你應該要帶回去財政部。其實我們三十六條之二或者是召委的三十六條之四,即便是加入的話,"},{"start":517.919,"end":519.2,"text":"adequate"}]}},{"id":"152016","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152016","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1677643b04cb2c89b0cbbe991ada1931c55be169921a0a717cc0bfe413a39fb5b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯志恩","委員發言時間":"09:42:35 - 09:53:30","影片長度":"00:10:55","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答)【4月29日及5月2日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":655,"end_time":"2024-05-02T09:53:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:42:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":218,"blocks":[["柯委員志恩：（9時42分）謝謝主席，我們請潘部長。"],["主席：請部長備質詢，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：召委好。"],["柯委員志恩：部長，從106年底，我們在第9屆應該是一起參與這個條例的修訂嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["柯委員志恩：所以我想代表教育部對偏鄉教育是相當的重視，我看到你們投入資源、穩定師資，也縮短了一些城鄉的差距，所以到底實施6年半來，你覺得成效是如何？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，如果從師資的流動性，因為那是偏鄉最核心的大問題啦！目前來看，久任大概差不多有8千500位，應該是表示他留了將近8年；另外，流動率也確實從實施前到實施後有減少。"],["柯委員志恩：我們就來看看流動率好了，的確是像你所說的有所進步，你看從107年到112年，大概是降到1.21%嘛！但是跟全國的流動率比起來，我說實在的，偏鄉還是有很大的進步空間，因為這個師資的問題還是沒有解決。特別是我常常去偏鄉看那些實習老師，他們常常說對於孩子來說，最大的問題就是你不管是三招、四招，很多的老師留不住，孩子就是不斷地沒有辦法把他的情緒投射在這個老師身上，因為他不知道什麼時候這個老師又會離開，這對孩子來說是精神上、心理上非常大的障礙，我覺得這是很重要。","還有我們特別來看一些統計，我們今天討論的偏鄉，各位看一下，偏鄉前5名的縣市就是臺東、花蓮、嘉義、南投跟雲林，然後他們的偏鄉比率，全臺偏鄉比率大概31%，你看這5個縣市占據這麼大，而且最重要是合格代理老師的比率只有12.5%，這對我們來說的話，整個的師資結構上面是有非常大的一個問題。如果你有看到去年9月聯合報對於偏鄉教育的調查，校長當然認為我們修的這部專法對他們的硬體跟數位是有一些幫助，但是72%的校長認為招生還是最大的一個挑戰，然後他們認為這部法對於招聘老師來說，沒有太大的幫助，所以反而變成是一個華麗的空城。我們來看一下，的確你看！偏鄉教育的專法，我們施行了六年半，我也是修法的一個代表者，到底有沒有辦法抵擋少子化的強風，我們是不是要做更前瞻的評估？我們看下面的一個數據，你看，就我們目前來說，少子化是不可逆，但是你看我們屏東，113年起停辦了三間國小；雲林今年小一的新生入學，有三個學校只有一個人來報到，所以關於這個部分，大家在修這個法的時候都很清楚知道，學校到底能不能夠廢，每個委員那時候就有很多不同的想法，學校就是一個社區的中心，但是當這個社區已經凋零，目前都沒有任何人的時候，學校的存在率是不是需要？所以這需要一個很好的配套。請問教育部，目前可以做的部分到底在哪裡？"],["潘部長文忠：召委剛才所提的，我必須坦白說，這個發展條例確實沒有辦法對應少子化的衝擊、學校的存續啦，因為學校的學生就是來自於家庭，現在越偏人口越少，這個是一個……"],["柯委員志恩：不可逆的！所以我們對於廢校這個部分，當學校都只剩下一個到兩個的學生時，教育部的態度會是什麼？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，我要這樣講，因為我們用一個比較嚴格的程序去要求地方政府，包含到現在，還有一所縣市的學校我們還沒辦法去幫它核定，就是如果這些配套，包含學生的交通……"],["柯委員志恩：所以我才要求能夠更細緻。"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["柯委員志恩：部長，我等一下會給你發言機會，我們一一來看嘛！這個是一般性，這可能是比較偏的數據，你對於偏鄉有沒有可以做得更好？我們先來看看雙語教育，每個學校都掛上了「雙語教育」的招牌，然後偏鄉老師都一招、二招，我現在是講英文老師喔！目前我們都放寬到大學畢業就可以，你看去年，你大概還知道吧？南橫的、臺東的霧鹿國小，校長經過五招還找不到所謂的英文老師，他只好上網公告，好不容易可以找到。但是你可以看看，我們投資了這麼多，所謂的雙語學校，過去只有328校，到目前為止，已經兩千多校，已經達到六成了，但是偏鄉的合格老師到底在哪裡？太少、太少，根本找不到！所以你看，偏遠地區的英文會考「待加強」的比例，連續3年都超過50%，部長就可以知道城鄉差距有多麼大，城市的小孩還可以去補習，我們偏鄉孩子連找個英文老師都找不到，這是有關於英文的問題。部長，所以雙語教育不要忘了，而且100億的雙語預算，我必須要說聘用外籍老師是占最多，高達三成，但是偏鄉如何呢？只有4.56億，100億當中只有4.56億，只有4%，不到5%，這是導致我們的英語落差非常重要的緣故，所以不是剛剛流動率的問題，還有包括英文老師的問題，這都是偏鄉所呈現的。等一下部長綜合回答。","另外，包括我們剛剛說的「生生有平板」，你們的確給了很多的學生有這樣子一個所謂好的硬體條件，2022年到2025年，4年要投入200億，然後你們買了61萬台Apple的iPad，還有包括充電車，送給近四千所的學校，但是你會發現教育部還有一個政策，竟然要求開機率必須要達到60%，如果沒有達到60%，這些老師可能就要被檢討，用60%這個數據，對我來說，就是一個形式主義。部長，開機率到底做給誰看？所以即使有這些硬體的設備，但是對不起！很多時候，你會發現網路速度不夠快，而很多學生自學，結果發現學生自學的時候，都不是在看所謂的教學影片，而且老師很習慣用傳統的方法，所以授課意願是非常低的，在這個原則之下，我實在很擔心5年後，我們是不是又要再汰舊換新，是否要再花200億給我們這些小孩？可是小孩整體使用數位教育並沒有辦法提升，會不會有這個問題？就雙語跟數位來說。"],["潘部長文忠：好，我簡要回應，剛才召委提到雙語學校到兩千多校，這就是我一再對外說，縣市首長不能標速度、標數量，它的師資根本跟不上。"],["柯委員志恩：是！"],["潘部長文忠：所以我們常常會要求縣市，你要有教材、師資才能去做，所以這兩千多所學校，很多縣市的作法，其實我是不認同的，甚至我請國教署還要經常去做糾正，原因在於提計畫就是要把師資帶起來，所以這是一個不好的現象。"],["柯委員志恩：但是我們英文師資的確是非常、非常缺乏。"],["潘部長文忠：所以為什麼我說我們會一一去搭配的意思，教育部核給這個計畫，也會核給師資，甚至有外聘的……"],["柯委員志恩：你的師資就是不到位，因為找不太到啊！"],["潘部長文忠：所以我們不希望縣市沒有師資，就先標「雙語學校」，教育部沒有所謂的雙語學校，我要跟召委報告。"],["柯委員志恩：是，這是很重要的，因為目前每個人都很像競標，我一進去看，發現每個老師教的英文，對不起！那個真的不叫做雙語教育，那個落差太大，這是個很嚴重問題。部長，我說實在的，如果我們連英語師資都是這個樣子，如何告訴我2030還要變成雙語國家？這個東西都是有態度的，這不在我今天討論的範圍……"],["潘部長文忠：對，我是跟召委報告剛才那個數據。第二個是有關「生生有平板」這個部分，所謂的開機率，其實這個不是只要求學校，我們是幫助學生，尤其在偏鄉，是一個學生就有一部，如果學校有碰到師資的困難，我們都還有一個輔導的計畫，但是不應該把這樣的載具完全放在倉庫不用，我覺得這才是浪費資源。"],["柯委員志恩：我覺得教育部不要每一次都是講這些數字，像剛剛洪孟楷委員講的有關校服的問題，我兒子現在30歲，他以前念龍安國小，從頭到尾都沒有在穿校服了，也不會有你剛剛說的那些問題。所以教育部不要每一次在給予的條文、對外宣布的訊息上面，造成人家的誤解，很多時候你實際上就是做這些事情，就像你剛剛說60%，難怪很多人就會跳腳嘛！這個開機率不代表是不是真的符合所謂數位教育的原則，所以教育部每次對外所發布的訊息，我覺得真的要非常的審慎。","最後，我請主席給我最後一分鐘，這是牽涉到高雄的部分，你看陽明交大，據說要在高雄設分部，而且最快114年就可以招生，這到底是真的還是假的？目前到底進度是怎麼樣？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟召委報告，清大跟陽明交大確實跟高雄市有在做一些合作的計畫，原則上……"],["柯委員志恩：有送到教育部來嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，高雄……"],["柯委員志恩：兩間學校有沒有送確切的計畫案給教育部？"],["潘部長文忠：它是一個產學合作的……"],["柯委員志恩：所以不需要教育部通過嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：不是，產學合作當然有啊！"],["柯委員志恩：當然要啊！對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：我們不只是針對這兩所學校，高雄市……"],["柯委員志恩：沒有，我說目前進度怎麼樣？"],["潘部長文忠：現在高雄市正在做，因為他們有好幾個產業要在那邊，現在它正在跟行政院爭取一個產業……"],["柯委員志恩：我只是提醒啦！部長，過去學校每次都給地方非常大的期望，能夠帶動地方的高教發展人才，完全是毋庸置疑，我們都非常的支持，我只是提醒，以過去來說，你看你已經知道嘛！臺大的竹北校區，2000年是怎麼樣的方式，2009年只新建一個校舍就無疾而終；臺科大也是；臺南縣政府無條件提供臺南大學一塊七股的校區，到現在為止也沒有任何進展；陽明交大也是，在竹北校區，告訴我們要成立臺灣知識經濟旗艦園區，2001年宣布，到目前為止，因為土地徵收的問題，而沒有進展。所以一個大的方向出來，到最後你看，這是我們所條列出來、整理出來的，我只是提醒部長，這個東西如果要設分部，就很確切地告訴地方，不要讓大家覺得有期待，就像剛剛我所舉的例子，從2000年到現在已經太多學校，空有一個訊息出來，大家非常的雀躍，結果到最後的結果是無疾而終，我只是提醒教育部，真的是要給予他們這樣的一個計畫的時候，請你審慎地評估，給予地方一個最確實的交代，可以嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝召委。"],["柯委員志恩：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，有請部長回座。"],["主席（柯委員志恩）：現在請葛如鈞委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","盧縣一","萬美玲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","葉元之","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","吳春城","林倩綺","徐富癸","何欣純","黃仁","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","范雲","邱志偉","黃珊珊","劉建國"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修\n正草案」案、(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」\n案、( 三) 委員馬文君等17 人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1133901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.94096875,"end":11.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.83471875,"end":15.285968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.973468750000002,"end":18.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.04909375,"end":19.57221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.57221875,"end":19.58909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.605968750000002,"end":38.92784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.554718750000003,"end":23.95971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.832843750000002,"end":26.457218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.36659375,"end":58.72221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.15284375,"end":57.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.72221875,"end":175.59846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.52659375000002,"end":206.46284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.46284375000002,"end":226.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.60346875000002,"end":230.93159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.93159375000002,"end":244.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.77346875,"end":282.68721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.91659375,"end":246.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":283.05846875000003,"end":347.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":348.78659375,"end":351.35159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":351.63846875,"end":365.02034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.07096875,"end":414.90284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":414.90284375000005,"end":445.56471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":445.17659375000005,"end":448.82159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":447.03284375000004,"end":455.30159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":449.05784375,"end":449.17596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":455.09909375,"end":458.30534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":456.71909375,"end":465.42659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":464.78534375000004,"end":486.26721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":466.37159375000005,"end":466.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.73409375000006,"end":469.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.45909375,"end":473.96534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":474.58971875000003,"end":475.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":484.17471875,"end":512.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":507.66471875,"end":510.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":512.28846875,"end":554.88096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":555.2690937500001,"end":563.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":563.48721875,"end":565.3940937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.3940937500001,"end":565.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":565.84971875,"end":565.86659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":565.86659375,"end":566.1028437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":566.1028437500001,"end":568.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":566.18721875,"end":569.0390937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":569.51159375,"end":571.94159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":571.04721875,"end":571.9753437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.9753437500001,"end":578.1853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":577.8647187500001,"end":580.5815937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":579.5522187500001,"end":587.4497187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":585.7790937500001,"end":652.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":652.24971875,"end":652.8572187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":652.8572187500001,"end":653.8528437500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":9.011,"end":10.376,"text":"有請柯志恩召委質詢。"},{"start":16.937,"end":20.561,"text":"施行迄今之成效及檢討：一、邀請教育部列席就 «偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案案件》。"},{"start":39.4,"end":60.053,"text":"委員如果從施肢的流動性因為那是偏向最核心的大問題那目前來看不管9任我說大概有將近不到差不多8500位他應該是表示他留了將近8年那另外一個流動率也確實從實施前到實施後有減少那我們就來看看流動率好了"},{"start":60.213,"end":79.608,"text":"的確是像你所說有所進步,你看從107年到112年大概是降到1.21到1.21嘛。但是跟全國的流動率比起來,我說實在的,偏鄉還是有很大的一個進步的一個空間嘛。因為這個師資的問題還是沒有解決,特別是我常常去偏鄉去看這些小孩,看我的十幾老師啊。"},{"start":80.529,"end":101.675,"text":"他們常說對於孩子來說他最大的問題就是你不管是三招四招很多的老師留不住就孩子就是不斷的沒有辦法把他的情緒投射在這個老師身上因為他不知道什麼時候這個老師又會離開這對孩子來說是一個非常大的一個精神上心理上面的一個障礙我覺得這是很重要還有我們特別來去看一些統計我們今天討論的偏鄉各位看一下這偏鄉前五名的縣市就是臺東花蓮嘉義南投跟雲林"},{"start":108.837,"end":114.118,"text":"全台偏鄉比例大約31這五個縣市佔據這麼大而且最重要是他合格的代理老師的比例只有12.5這對我們來說的話整個的師資的結構上面是有一個非常大的一個問題那你如果有看到這個去年九月這個聯合報裡面對於偏鄉教育的調查裡面校長當然認為你們這部的專訪我們說這部專訪當然對他們的硬體跟數位是有一些的幫助但是但是"},{"start":138.643,"end":142.904,"text":"72%的校長認為說招生還是最大的一個挑戰然後呢他們認為招聘老師對於這個這篇法對於招聘老師來說沒有太大的幫助所以反而變成是一個華麗的空城哦那我們來看一下哦的確你看我們到底用這個偏鄉教育法我們執行的六年半我也是一個修法的這樣子的一個一個代表者到底有沒有辦法抵擾少子化的強風"},{"start":165.069,"end":169.336,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會第11次全體委員會"},{"start":177.324,"end":206.076,"text":"113年裡我們停辦在三間的國小。那雲林今年小一的新生入學有三個學校只有一個人來報到。所以我們提示除了這個部分,我們大家都在修這個法的時候都很清楚知道嘛,學校到底不能夠廢,每個委員那時候就有很多不同的想法。學校就是一個社區的一個中心嘛,但是當個社區已經是凋零,目前都沒有任何人的時候,學校的存、存在率是不是需要?所以這需要一個很好的一個配套。請問教育部目前可以做的部分到底在哪裡?"},{"start":207.197,"end":230.618,"text":"章偉剛所提的我一定要必須坦白地說這個發展條例確實沒有辦法去對應說少子化的這個衝擊學校的程序因為學校的學生就是來自於家庭因為現在整個人口越偏人口越少這個是一個不可逆的所以我們對於廢校的這個部分當學校都只剩下一個到兩個時候教育部的態度會是什麼"},{"start":231.038,"end":233.04,"text":"委員我要這樣講因為我們用一個比較嚴格的程序去要求地方政府包含到現在還有一所縣市的學校我們還沒辦法去幫他核定就是說你如果這些配套包含學生的交通是說我才要求能夠更細緻部長我等一下會給你有發言機會我們來一一來去看嘛"},{"start":249.454,"end":249.994,"text":"公佈公佈公佈公佈公佈公佈"},{"start":267.626,"end":281.063,"text":"去年啊你大家還知道嗎那個南橫的那個台東的霧露國小那個校長經過5週還找不到這個所謂的英文老師他只好上網來公告好不容易可以找到但是你會看看我們投注了這麼多所謂的雙語學校過去只有"},{"start":283.206,"end":288.128,"text":"三百二十八到目前為止已經到兩千多已經達到六成了但是我們偏鄉的合格的老師到底在哪裡太少太少根本找不到所以你看我們偏遠地區的英文會考代加強的連續三年都超過百分之五十部長你就可以知道這個城鄉差距有多麼的大城市的小孩還可以去補習我們偏鄉孩子連找個英文老師都找不到那更不要說你看這是有關英文的問題啊部長這個部分"},{"start":310.695,"end":317.841,"text":"所以說呢雙語教育不要忘了而且你看看一百億的雙語的預算我必須要說聘用外籍老師是佔最多中高達三成但是偏鄉如何呢只有4.56億一百億當中只有4.56億只有4%不到5%這是我們英語落差非常重要的緣故所以不是我剛剛的流動率的問題還有包括英文老師的問題這都是幫偏鄉所呈現的好等下部長綜合回答在下面"},{"start":337.395,"end":347.6,"text":"包括我們剛剛說的生生有平板但是呢教育部卻要求你們給的很多的學生的確是有這樣子的一個一個所謂的好的一個硬體的條件你看2000年的時候有你看2022到2025四年投入了200億然後呢你們花了60買了61萬這個Apple的iPad還有包括這個充電車送給近4000所的這個學校但是呢你會發現"},{"start":365.288,"end":372.37,"text":"教育部還有一個政策,竟然要求我們的開機率,對不起,前面一頁,開機率必須要達到60%,如果沒有達到60%的話,這些老師可能就要被檢討。那這個被60%,用這個數據來說,對我來說就是一個形式主義。"},{"start":380.433,"end":398.146,"text":"部長,這開支去到底做給誰看?所以即使有這些硬體的設備,但是對不起,很多時候你會發現網路速度不夠快,然後呢,很多學生自學,就發現學生自學的時候呢,都不是在看所謂的教學影片,而且老師很習慣用傳統的方法,所以授課的意願是非常的低的。"},{"start":398.746,"end":415.38,"text":"所以在這個原則之下面呢我就很擔心五年後是不是我們又要再太舊換新是否要再花200億給我們這些小孩可是小孩在整個的所有的使用的數月的教育並沒有辦法提升會不會有這個問題就雙語跟數位來說我請要回應說剛才召委提到那個雙語學校到2000多校這就是我一再的對外說縣市首長不能標速度數量"},{"start":424.747,"end":425.428,"text":"教育部立法院第11屆第1會期教育部列席"},{"start":454.707,"end":458.35,"text":"教育部沒有所謂的雙語學校這是很重要的因為目前每個人都要競標然後我一進去看發現每個老師教的英文對不起那個真的是不叫做雙語教育那個落差太大這是個嚴重問題如果部長我說實在的如果我們連英語詩字都是這個樣子我們如何告訴我2030還要變成雙語國家"},{"start":483.711,"end":505.761,"text":"這個東西都是有太多,這不在我今天討論的範圍。這跟召委報告剛才那個數據。第二個是有關平板,深深用平板的這個部分,那個所謂的開具力,其實我們是在提,這個不是只要求學校,我們是說幫尤其偏鄉是一個學生我們有一部,那你如果學校碰到失職的困難,我們都還有一個輔導的計畫,但是不應該把這樣的﹐所以教育部﹐把他完全"},{"start":510.703,"end":514.886,"text":"放在倉庫不用,我覺得這是才讓會資源。我覺得教育部就不要每一次就是講這些數字像剛剛侯孟楷委員講的有關校服的問題我兒子現在30歲他以前念龍安國小從頭到尾都沒有再穿校服了也不會有你剛剛說的那些問題所以教育部不要每一次在給予的條文對外的一個宣布的訊息上面造成人家的誤解很多時候你實際上就是做這些事情"},{"start":531.519,"end":532.299,"text":"發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":555.665,"end":571.952,"text":"我跟您稍微報告那個清大跟遙敏教大確實跟高雄市他們有在做一些合作的計畫那原則上有送到教育部來嗎?兩支學校沒送到確切的計畫案給教育部他是一個產學合作的所以不需要教育部通過嗎?"},{"start":573.032,"end":578.479,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第12屆教育及文化委員會第13屆教育及文化委員會第14屆教育及文化委員會第15屆教育及文化委員會第16屆教育及文化委員會第16屆教育及文化委員會第17屆教育及文化委員會第18屆教育及文化委員會第18屆教育及文化委員會第19屆教育及文化委員會第19屆教育及文化委員會第20屆教育及文化委員會第21屆教育及文化委員會第22屆教育及文化委員會第22屆教育及文化委員會第23屆教育及文化委員會第24�"},{"start":587.97,"end":593.111,"text":"教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案案件。 委員柯志恩等24人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件。 委員柯志恩等24人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件。 委員柯志恩等24人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件。"},{"start":614.915,"end":620.5,"text":"也是在竹北校區要告訴我們要成立臺灣知識經濟旗艦園區2001年宣布到目前為止土地徵收沒有所以一個大的方向出來到最後你看這是我們所調列出來整理出來的我只是提醒部長這個東西如果要設分部就很確切的告訴地方不要讓大家覺得有期待就像剛剛我所舉的例子從2000年到現在已經太多學校"},{"start":638.775,"end":651.841,"text":"公有一個訊息出來大家非常的雀躍結果到最後結果無疾而終我只是提醒教育部在審到真正是要給予他們這樣的一個計畫的時候請你審慎的評估然後給予地方一個最確實的交代可以嗎好 謝謝趙薇好 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152015","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152015","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1ef587ff502ac01eae5dad6307223f0f855be169921a0a7178775ffc34e28c48f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳秉叡","委員發言時間":"09:44:42 - 09:52:31","影片長度":"00:07:49","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查或處理「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算(112至113年度)」及「中央政府疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算」決議：\n一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。\n二、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案9案。\n三、有關交通部主管預算凍結書面報告案14案。\n四、有關行政院農業委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n五、有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結書面報告案11案。\n六、有關文化部主管預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n七、有關數位發展部主管預算凍結書面報告案7案。\n八、有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n九、有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n十、有關行政院環境保護署預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n十一、有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案。）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15,19,22,23,26],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15,19,22,23,26-1"},"duration":469,"end_time":"2024-05-02T09:52:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:44:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":242,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時44分）主席，麻煩請內政部花次長。"],["主席：內政部花次長請。"],["花次長敬群：委員好。"],["吳委員秉叡：次長早。花蓮403地震，全國人民都很關心，除了中央有捐款，也有人直接捐到花蓮縣政府之外，是中央對花蓮縣的救災要求沒有承諾嗎？"],["花次長敬群：當然有承諾。"],["吳委員秉叡：有承諾，他盤點清楚受損的部分沒有？"],["花次長敬群：目前當然花蓮陸陸續續盤點出來，現階段有十幾棟大概會有可能要拆除，或者是整個要……"],["吳委員秉叡：那是建築物的部分啦！"],["花次長敬群：對，建築物。"],["吳委員秉叡：另外道路的還有其他的，這些工程的搶修不是已經在進行了嗎？"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在中央政府也同意，至少有匡列了250億以上馬上要投入救災，那為什麼還需要一個什麼特別條例？而且特別條例所要求的規模才150億，還遠遠不如中央政府的預算規模，並且中央政府不用經過立法的程序馬上就要做，然後現在還要弄一個特別條例，要經過本院立法，立法程序走完之後，再由行政院來編列預算，然後再進行，目的是150億，比行政院現在已經願意馬上投入執行的250億還要少，這是在幹嘛？"],["花次長敬群：確實啦！但我想以現在行政院用方案的方式來執行，其實效率跟規模都會符合災民的需求。"],["吳委員秉叡：我現在的意思是，我懷疑是不是花蓮縣政府跟中央之間的溝通有問題啊？會不會是花蓮縣政府要報什麼救災的計畫來，結果中央政府不接受；還是中央政府要他盤點清楚哪一些東西要救災要趕快進行，然後他不給你，到底是哪一種狀況？"],["花次長敬群：應該沒有花蓮需要中央的協助，而中央不處理，這個基本上是沒有啦！"],["吳委員秉叡：那有沒有中央要花蓮盤點受災的狀況，而花蓮不報的？"],["花次長敬群：我想各部會可能都有不同的狀況，當然有些資訊確實慢了一些。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，如果是這樣的話，就回到我剛剛講的，中央政府尤其行政機關在沒有這些特別條例的狀況下已經匡列250億，馬上要投入救災，只要計畫報來，確實就要進行，對不對？"],["花次長敬群：甚至我們也會主動下去……"],["吳委員秉叡：去瞭解，所以我現在的意思是，內政部要主動去瞭解。"],["花次長敬群：有、有、有。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，如果是這樣的話，以這樣子的速度，今天報來，確定後明天就可以做，甚至今天就可以做，有需要來提一個震災的特別條例嗎？特別條例是一個法律案耶！法律案要到本院來審查，法律案的審查在立法院再快，即使直接抽出逕付二讀也要好幾個禮拜啊！之後再根據這個特別條例由行政院編列預算，再經過本院審查，這個預算的審查再快也要兩、三個禮拜。馬上就可以做的事情，有需要經過兩、三個月的程序去立一個特別條例，然後再編列預算來做嗎？這是第一個我不懂的地方啦！這是在幹嘛？我不瞭解，所以我想請教你的看法，這是在幹嘛？"],["花次長敬群：我們現階段大概也認為沒有必要用特別條例啦！而已經執行的，例如我們的租金補貼，其實現在大概有七百多戶已經來申請了，我們核定就給他了，他馬上就可以享受政府的協助了。"],["吳委員秉叡：第二個問題，我就想到臺灣非常重要的慈善機構，也是宗教團體，叫做慈濟，它的大本營就是在花蓮，對不對？"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：慈濟在全世界救災，全世界到處去喔！連非洲、中南美洲各地、土耳其，只要有震災的地方，它都派人去支援，也弄了非常多的組合屋，你知道嗎？"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：包括二十多年前的921地震，它也弄了非常多的組合屋啊！臺灣組合屋不夠嗎？"],["花次長敬群：以目前花蓮的狀況，甚至有沒有需要組合屋都還要再詳細地評估一下。"],["吳委員秉叡：有沒有需要組合屋，需要詳細的promote，那就算有需要組合屋，臺灣組合屋不夠嗎？是政府不願意提供，還是慈善團體不願意提供？100間組合屋需要從中國特別運過來，要中國特別來救濟，有這樣的需求嗎？"],["花次長敬群：應該是沒有。"],["吳委員秉叡：一間組合屋的估價，你估價是多少？"],["花次長敬群：其實有不同的推估，我們前一陣子有請公會幫忙評估，大概算一坪的話，我們還是用坪的角度來看，一坪大概在7、8萬塊。"],["吳委員秉叡：一坪7、8萬塊，那組合屋一般是多少坪？"],["花次長敬群：20坪、30坪，20坪左右的比較多、十幾坪到20坪。"],["吳委員秉叡：那就是一百多萬。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：你講的這個是在當地施工的喔！"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：如果是從中國那邊運一百間過來，透過海運、空運運過來這邊組裝，那要花多少錢？"],["花次長敬群：這個我就不是很清楚，運費應該不便宜。"],["吳委員秉叡：那就很奇怪啊！沒有需要，遠巴巴地那麼多人去中國就乞討100間的組合屋，我們不見得需要。就算有需要，臺灣也絕對供應得起，這是在做什麼？我都搞不懂這是在幹嘛！最近我覺得跟社會越來越脫節了，做了很多事情，我越來越搞不懂，邏輯上不清楚啊！為什麼這樣？今天如果中央政府不願意給你補助經費，像當年高雄氣爆，那時候中央政府不願意給高雄補助，這次地震全國人民都在關心，中央政府第一時間說立刻就給，也已經匡列250億在那邊等，這樣子還要弄一個特別條例。再來，臺灣又不缺組合屋，臺灣隨時也有人願意提供組合屋，臺灣的善心人士很多。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：真的有實際需要，這哪裡是問題！100間組合屋，是什麼問題？"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：一定有，社會上這麼多人有愛心可以提供。我也願意，如果有這樣的機會，我也願意效綿薄之力啊！在這樣的狀況之下，到底在幹嘛？我實在是看不懂。內政部，我覺得你要加油，跟地方政府多溝通。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：地方政府有什麼需要，是不是我們不夠瞭解？我們的關懷度不夠，讓地方政府覺得我們都沒有在關心它嗎？"],["花次長敬群：我們都會持續盤點我們的租金補貼，跟現在交通部提供的旅館這個部分合起來，其實有超過三千戶的協助。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為民政系統是在你們手裡，所以我說對地方政府要多關懷。"],["花次長敬群：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：不要讓地方政府覺得他們跟我們之間有很大的隔閡。我本將心向明月，不要明月照溝渠！"],["花次長敬群：瞭解。"],["吳委員秉叡：拜託你。"],["花次長敬群：好，我們會積極，謝謝委員指導。"],["主席（郭委員國文）：謝謝吳秉叡委員質詢。接著請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","陳亭妃","吳秉叡","賴士葆","萬美玲","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","王鴻薇","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","陳玉珍","張宏陸","游顥","陳秀寳","鄭正鈐","羅廷瑋","徐富癸","黃秀芳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","李坤城","陳素月","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","黃健豪","王美惠","范雲","張雅琳","林月琴","王正旭","賴瑞隆","吳春城","徐欣瑩","鍾佳濱","邱志偉","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","葉元之","蘇清泉","盧縣一","陳超明","李柏毅","林岱樺","劉建國","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王育敏","牛煦庭","吳琪銘","蔡易餘","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查或處理「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 4期特別預算(112至113年度)」及「中央政府疫後強\n化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算」決議：一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告\n案4案；二、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案9案；三、有關交通部主管預算凍結書面報告案\n14案；四、有關行政院農業委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案 3案；五、有關衛生福利部主管預算\n凍結書面報告案11案；六、有關文化部主管預算凍結書面報告案1案；七、有關數位發展部主管\n預算凍結書面報告案7案；八、有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案1案；九、有關內政部主\n管預算凍結書面報告案3案；十、有關行政院環境保護署預算凍結書面報告案1案；十一、有關國\n家科學及技術委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案","agenda_id":"1133901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.0553437500000005,"end":7.77659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.164718750000002,"end":9.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.825343750000002,"end":21.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.06971875,"end":22.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.980968750000002,"end":31.48596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.39721875,"end":36.970343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.56096875,"end":38.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":39.67034375,"end":40.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.12159375,"end":42.16784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.16784375,"end":42.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.50534375,"end":42.52221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.52221875,"end":42.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.53909375,"end":42.555968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.555968750000005,"end":42.977843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.977843750000005,"end":43.80471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.09159375,"end":45.407843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.369718750000004,"end":59.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.05159375,"end":57.760343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.55346875,"end":58.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.009093750000005,"end":61.37159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.641593750000006,"end":66.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.61971875,"end":73.13346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.60596875,"end":77.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.82034375,"end":79.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.91284375000001,"end":102.24284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":102.91784375,"end":103.99784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.95971875000001,"end":111.49034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.09784375000001,"end":113.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.46471875,"end":119.30346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.87721875000001,"end":134.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":134.96346875,"end":141.81471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.81471875,"end":144.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.97034375,"end":152.15909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.86784375000002,"end":153.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.03659375,"end":155.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.93909375,"end":174.02909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.13534375,"end":169.79346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.38346875000002,"end":175.51409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":176.27346875,"end":182.90534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.25971875000002,"end":187.05659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.30971875,"end":191.74784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":191.98409375,"end":195.42659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.42659375000002,"end":195.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":196.01721875,"end":198.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.86909375000002,"end":200.05034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.64096875,"end":202.64909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.20596875,"end":205.12971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.16346875000002,"end":207.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.20909375000002,"end":219.67596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.03034375000001,"end":220.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":221.59971875000002,"end":222.46034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.00034375,"end":225.46409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.52721875,"end":243.11534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.11534375000002,"end":247.14846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.65471875000003,"end":248.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":249.10596875000002,"end":251.31659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.46846875000003,"end":252.41346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.90284375000002,"end":253.54409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.57784375000003,"end":255.33284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":255.99096875000004,"end":256.34534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.69971875,"end":265.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.47034375000004,"end":268.46159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.79909375,"end":269.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.89596875,"end":272.32596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.08534375,"end":275.36346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.71784375000004,"end":277.13534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.72159375,"end":285.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":285.03284375000004,"end":285.06659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","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立法程序走完之後再由行政院再來編列預算然後再來去進行 那目的是150億還比行政院現在已經願意馬上投入執行的250億還要少這是在幹嘛"},{"start":105.298,"end":111.333,"text":"確實啦,但我想以現在行政院用方案的方式來執行,其實效率跟規模都會符合災民的需求。"},{"start":112.145,"end":141.637,"text":"那是不是我現在意思是說所以我懷疑是不是花蓮縣政府跟中央之間的溝通有問題啊會不會花蓮縣政府要報什麼救災的這個計畫來啊結果中央政府不接受還是中央政府跟他邀說你要盤點清楚你哪一些東西要救災要趕快來進行然後他不給你到底是哪一種狀況啊應該沒有他花蓮需要中央協助中央不處理的這個基本上是沒有啦"},{"start":141.837,"end":148.804,"text":"那有沒有花蓮?中央要花蓮盤點受災的狀況,花蓮不報的?我想各部會可能都有不同的狀況,那當然有些資訊確實慢了一些。"},{"start":152.898,"end":175.277,"text":"好那如果是這樣的話就回到我剛剛講的中央政府尤其行政機關沒有這些特別條例的狀況下已經匡列250億馬上要投入救災嘛只要你計畫報來確實就要進行嘛對不對甚至我們也會主動下去就執行執了解所以我現在意思說內政部要主動要了解有有有好那如果是這樣的話這樣子的速度"},{"start":176.331,"end":197.61,"text":"今天報來確定明天就可以做甚至今天就可以做那有需要來提一個這個政災的特別條例特別條例是一個法律案法律案要到本院來審查法院法律案的審查在立法院再快直接抽出進負二讀也要好幾個禮拜啊那然後之後再來根據這個"},{"start":199.231,"end":225.322,"text":"這個特別條例再來由行政院編列預算那再經過本院審查這個預算的審查再快也要兩三個禮拜馬上就可以做的事情有需要經過這樣兩三個月的程序然後來去立一個特別條例然後來編列預算來做嗎這個是第一個我不懂的地方這是在幹嘛我不瞭解所以我想請教你你的看法是這是在幹嘛"},{"start":226.547,"end":227.128,"text":"主席主席主席"},{"start":249.184,"end":276.592,"text":"慈善機構也是我們的宗教團體叫做慈濟它的大本營就是在花蓮對不對是慈濟在全世界救災全世界有到處去連非洲連中南美洲各地土耳其只要有正在的地方它都派人去支援也弄了非常多的組合屋你知道嗎是包括20多年前的九合一地震九合一大地震它也弄了非常多的組合屋啊台灣組合屋不夠嗎"},{"start":278.749,"end":305.754,"text":"以目前花蓮的狀況甚至有沒有需要組合屋都還要再詳細的評估一下有沒有需要組合屋需要詳細的Promote那就算有需要組合屋台灣組合屋不夠嗎還是政府不願意提供然後還是慈善團體不願意提供100間組合屋需要從中國特別運過來要從中國特別來救濟有這樣的需求嗎應該是沒有"},{"start":307.025,"end":330.451,"text":"那一間組合屋的估價,你估價是多少?其實有不同的推估啦,我們前陣子有請工會幫忙評估,大概算一坪啦,我們大概還是用坪的角度來看,一坪大概在七、八萬塊。一坪七、八萬塊,那組合屋一般是多少坪?20坪、30坪,20坪的左右比較多啦,10幾坪到20坪。100多萬嗎?是。"},{"start":332.967,"end":348.567,"text":"那你講的這個是在當地施工的喔?那如果是從中國那邊一百千運過來海運、空運運過來來這邊組裝那要花多少錢?這個我就不是很清楚運費應該不便宜"},{"start":350.319,"end":374.664,"text":"那就很奇怪啊沒有需要那遠巴巴的那麼多人去中國去乞討一個100間的組合屋我們不見得需要就算有需要台灣也絕對供應得起這是在幹什麼我在搞不懂這是在幹嘛所以最近我跟社會覺得越來越脫節了做了很多事情我越來越搞不懂邏輯上不清楚啊為什麼這樣"},{"start":376.348,"end":392.986,"text":"今天如果說中央政府不願意給你補助經費像當年高雄氣爆那時候中央政府不願意給高雄補助這次地震全國人民都在關心中央政府馬上第一時間也說要立刻就給然後也已經匡列250億在那邊等他"},{"start":395.804,"end":418.094,"text":"這樣子還要弄一個特別條例再來台灣又不缺組合屋台灣隨時也有人願意提供組合屋台灣的善心人士很多啦真的有實際需要這個哪裡是問題一百間組合屋是什麼問題一定有社會上這麼多人的愛心可以提供嘛我也願意如果有這樣的機會我也願意笑眠婆之力啊"},{"start":419.158,"end":446.36,"text":"那在這樣的狀況之下到底在幹嘛我算是看不懂內政部我覺得你要加油跟地方政府多溝通地方政府有什麼需要是不是我們不夠了解我們的關懷度不夠讓地方政府覺得說我們都沒有在關心他嗎我們都會持續盤點我們的住興補貼跟現在交通部提供的旅館的這個部分合起來其實有超過3000戶的協助那因為民政系統是在你們的手裡所以我是說對地方政府要多關懷啦"},{"start":447.441,"end":447.541,"text":"主席"}]}},{"id":"152014","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152014","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1fe40872097187b17e5dad6307223f0f855be169921a0a717433ed581e36198385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳亭妃","委員發言時間":"09:35:40 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09:44:32","影片長度":"00:08:52","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查或處理「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算(112至113年度)」及「中央政府疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算」決議：\n一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。\n二、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案9案。\n三、有關交通部主管預算凍結書面報告案14案。\n四、有關行政院農業委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n五、有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結書面報告案11案。\n六、有關文化部主管預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n七、有關數位發展部主管預算凍結書面報告案7案。\n八、有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n九、有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n十、有關行政院環境保護署預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n十一、有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案。）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15,19,22,23,26],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15,19,22,23,26-1"},"duration":532,"end_time":"2024-05-02T09:44:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:35:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":177,"blocks":[["陳委員亭妃：（9時35分）謝謝主席，請交通部次長。"],["主席：請交通部次長。"],["陳次長彥伯：委員好。"],["陳委員亭妃：次長好。次長，我們的單軌藍線一期有條件通過，總經費是324.37億，這個部分讓大家都覺得我們臺南要蓋捷運了，是以單軌捷運的方式，可是細看裡面，是有條件的通過，而且現在是高架，有條件的通過，在這整個過程當中，主要連接高鐵到東區的轉運站這樣的區塊，所以大家都希望有這一條來連結。"],["陳次長彥伯：是的。"],["陳委員亭妃：可是有條件的通過，這裡面的條件所寫的其實沒有那麼容易來處理。第一個，他說臺南市政府須再加強說明採用該系統的原因及後續營運維修成本，這很困難。這好像又給我們一個希望，然後又壓住我們。第二個，總經費較可行性研究增加126.74億的責任歸屬。第三個，中央與地方經費分攤、經濟效益及運量估算合理性，這三個你先讓它過了一個頭，過去人家都說頭過身就過，但是這看來就不是這樣，原本大家都期待藍線一期的環評過了，結果是有條件通過。次長，這到底是怎麼一回事？"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告一下，有關臺南市的藍線，本部是在3月21號召開相關的審查會，當然審查會裡頭有相關的意見，是希望臺南市政府再釐清說明，說明完了以後，其實我們就會把整個計畫函報行政院來核定，那這三點……"],["陳委員亭妃：但是你說要釐清說明的這三點，這三點是可大可小耶！次長，這三點是可大可小！"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告，其實採用什麼樣的系統、採用什麼樣營運的方式，在可行性的階段市政府做了很詳盡的研究，提出來之後，針對他採行了這樣一套的系統，當時相關的審查委員認為可能要請市政府再說明，把它說明清楚，意思並不是質疑他採用這樣的系統。"],["陳委員亭妃：次長，我就跟你講，這三點是可大可小，對不對？如果只是認同這個系統，然後在未來可行性評估的營運維修成本只是有一點點需要補強的，那沒有問題，如果像你講的，委員認為這個系統是有問題的，那是可大可小。","再來，總經費比當時的可行性研究增加了126.74億，比較多的大概都是所有土建相關的導致預算增加，對不對？原物料的增加嘛？那今天責任歸屬，我就跟你講，你講這幾點都是可大可小。","再來，中央跟地方要怎麼分攤？地方是出越少越好，中央出越多越好，這是最基本的嘛！次長，你要叫他怎麼回答？"],["陳次長彥伯：委員，我可不可以簡單再說明清楚一點？就是有關這樣的計畫，在我們部裡頭召開的審查委員會審查完以後，是有條件通過，請他修正完了以後，我們就會把這樣的計畫報院，所以剛才委員講到報院的期程，應該是等市政府報來了以後，我們大概看了一下，若沒問題，我們就會往行政院報。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，次長，你這一句話很重要喔！"],["陳次長彥伯：至於可行性的研究……"],["陳委員亭妃：因為我就跟你講，你寫的這幾點是可大可小……"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：如果今天是像次長所說的，你們都審過了，只有一個小修正，那OK……"],["陳次長彥伯：這個……"],["陳委員亭妃：可是如果不是這個樣子，又是在那邊退件來、退件去，基本上我們當時在媒體看到大大的，也就是已經通過了所謂的初步審查，那等於就沒有意義了。"],["陳次長彥伯：我……"],["陳委員亭妃：次長，你要記得你今天所說的喔！"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我跟委員報告，有條件的通過，其實是整體上委員對這整個計畫是可以通過的……"],["陳委員亭妃：當然啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：只是大家希望要補充些相關的……"],["陳委員亭妃：整體可以通過，但只是稍微修正，這個原則請把它踩住。"],["陳次長彥伯：沒問題……"],["陳委員亭妃：這個部分，因為……"],["陳次長彥伯：我們會依照這樣的原則來做後續的處理。"],["陳委員亭妃：因為我們的單軌捷運，基本上有藍線、綠線、紅線，綠線、紅線都還在規劃，都還沒有正式有這樣的雛型。今天藍線會跑得比較快，是因為它確實可以連接高鐵到東區的轉運站，所以這個是有基本上的需要，甚至未來還可以連接到火車站，這個都有它的脈絡性，所以這一條會比較被重視，而且因為它是高架，高架其實未來還有所謂落墩的問題……"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：落墩的問題，因為這邊比較空曠，所以比較沒有跟住戶有所謂比鄰的狀態，因此我們都希望這一條要趕快走。"],["陳次長彥伯：瞭解。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以整個藍線、綠線、紅線都在本來2.25億的先期運輸系統規劃，現在藍線跑得比較快，所以我們希望不要讓地方失望，是這個部分。第二個問題，就是我們現在所看到的新市鐵路高架化，我知道現在臺南市政府還在做新市及善化地區鐵路立體化可行性研究的期末相關作業，對不對？所有的資料都還在市政府，是不是？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：所以你們沒有資料？"],["陳次長彥伯：是。"],["陳委員亭妃：好，我要求交通部，現在因為你們要評估所有鐵路地下化的進度，到未來走到新市高架大概要多久？因為你們預估出時間，才能催促市政府要趕快把時間訂出來，否則他的東西不送出來怎麼辦？來，預計一下，現在所有的地下化都在進行啊！"],["主席：你趕快回答吧！"],["陳委員亭妃：趕快回答。"],["主席：試著回答，好不好？"],["陳次長彥伯：我跟委員報告一下，有關鐵路地下化的部分，我們會在115年通車啦！"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！115年。"],["陳次長彥伯：對，這整個的話……"],["陳委員亭妃：對啊！那連結……"],["陳次長彥伯：後續的部分就要看市政府報來了以後……"],["陳委員亭妃：從永康再到新市，這個部分呢？這個部分你們的預計呢？115年鐵路地下化通車，後面銜接到永康、新市、新化，還有善化呢？"],["陳次長彥伯：我想委員這一部分可能還是……"],["主席：私底下再提供資料，好不好？私底下。"],["陳次長彥伯：好。"],["陳委員亭妃：沒有，只要一句話而已。"],["陳次長彥伯：對，我的意思是，還是希望臺南市政府報來了以後……"],["陳委員亭妃：你要催促市政府啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：是，我們來協助，好不好？"],["陳委員亭妃：你要催促市政府啊！"],["陳次長彥伯：我們來協助他啦！"],["陳委員亭妃：如果他都不動的話，等到你們做完，後面計畫都還沒上來，怎麼會來得及呢，對不對？"],["陳次長彥伯：是，這部分我們來協助他，好不好？"],["陳委員亭妃：我們希望有一個環狀嘛！你知道鐵路地下化拖多久了！"],["主席：謝謝陳委員的質詢。"],["陳委員亭妃：再拜託，你要催促市政府趕快把整個可行性送出來。"],["陳次長彥伯：好，我們來看怎麼樣協助市政府。"],["陳委員亭妃：謝謝。"],["陳次長彥伯：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝陳委員的質詢。","下一位請吳秉叡委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","陳亭妃","吳秉叡","賴士葆","萬美玲","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","王鴻薇","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","陳玉珍","張宏陸","游顥","陳秀寳","鄭正鈐","羅廷瑋","徐富癸","黃秀芳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","李坤城","陳素月","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","黃健豪","王美惠","范雲","張雅琳","林月琴","王正旭","賴瑞隆","吳春城","徐欣瑩","鍾佳濱","邱志偉","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","葉元之","蘇清泉","盧縣一","陳超明","李柏毅","林岱樺","劉建國","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王育敏","牛煦庭","吳琪銘","蔡易餘","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查或處理「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 4期特別預算(112至113年度)」及「中央政府疫後強\n化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算」決議：一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告\n案4案；二、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案9案；三、有關交通部主管預算凍結書面報告案\n14案；四、有關行政院農業委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案 3案；五、有關衛生福利部主管預算\n凍結書面報告案11案；六、有關文化部主管預算凍結書面報告案1案；七、有關數位發展部主管\n預算凍結書面報告案7案；八、有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案1案；九、有關內政部主\n管預算凍結書面報告案3案；十、有關行政院環境保護署預算凍結書面報告案1案；十一、有關國\n家科學及技術委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案","agenda_id":"1133901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.66284375,"end":7.35471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.35471875,"end":7.371593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.844093750000001,"end":12.383468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.872843750000001,"end":21.20909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.58034375,"end":32.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.32534375,"end":36.59909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.970343750000005,"end":38.674718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.59034375,"end":38.657843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":38.674718750000004,"end":39.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.877218750000004,"end":41.00346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.44221875,"end":55.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.24596875,"end":55.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":55.27971875,"end":55.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.549718750000004,"end":56.54534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.899718750000005,"end":59.80221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.80221875,"end":60.257843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.595343750000005,"end":61.320968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.063468750000006,"end":64.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.24846875,"end":66.77159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.71659375,"end":70.85534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.34471875,"end":72.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":71.76659375,"end":71.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":72.25596875000001,"end":72.81284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.16721875,"end":82.17846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.71409375,"end":84.74346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.68846875,"end":86.58284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.81909375000001,"end":87.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.06784375000001,"end":89.18159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.51909375000001,"end":91.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.24034375000001,"end":99.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":100.36971875,"end":107.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.18284375,"end":108.89159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":110.24159375,"end":111.57471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.62096875,"end":113.58284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":114.24096875000001,"end":116.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.19409375000001,"end":119.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.67471875000001,"end":126.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.31909375000001,"end":129.58034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.45784375,"end":131.90909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.22534375,"end":157.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.96909375,"end":155.44971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.93909375,"end":158.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.12846875,"end":160.03971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.55034375,"end":162.77346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.64721875,"end":160.91721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.43159375000002,"end":188.71034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.25909375,"end":189.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":189.84096875,"end":192.59159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.09784375,"end":193.68846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":194.31284375,"end":195.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":195.44346875000002,"end":195.89909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.59534375,"end":207.71159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.16721875000002,"end":211.12034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.76159375,"end":215.23784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.69346875000002,"end":224.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.58721875,"end":220.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.68784375,"end":227.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.40034375000002,"end":229.90221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.20159375,"end":235.47096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.55534375000002,"end":238.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.16659375,"end":242.17034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.96346875,"end":244.80284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":244.93784375,"end":246.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":247.21596875,"end":248.56596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.76846875,"end":250.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.18159375000002,"end":251.67096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.54846875,"end":258.55596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":258.64034375,"end":278.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.04284375000003,"end":278.012843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- 09:35:33","影片長度":"00:08:05","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查或處理「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算(112至113年度)」及「中央政府疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算」決議：\n一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。\n二、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案9案。\n三、有關交通部主管預算凍結書面報告案14案。\n四、有關行政院農業委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n五、有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結書面報告案11案。\n六、有關文化部主管預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n七、有關數位發展部主管預算凍結書面報告案7案。\n八、有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n九、有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n十、有關行政院環境保護署預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n十一、有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案。）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15,19,22,23,26],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15,19,22,23,26-1"},"duration":485,"end_time":"2024-05-02T09:35:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:27:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":140,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時27分）謝謝主席，是不是請陳副主計長？"],["主席：請主計處陳副主計長。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：委員好。"],["林委員德福：你好，副主計長，因為再過幾天你們朱主計長就要卸任了，在他8年任內行政院所提出的一些特別預算，監察院曾經在109年提出調查報告說特別預算編列有常態化的這種現象，政府恐將有將部分支出隱藏於前瞻計畫的特別預算裡面，造成109年度總預算財政收支平衡之假象，中央政府在推動前瞻計畫因為未能充分考量地方財政，以致於地方政府有挪移預算產生排擠效應。我想請問副主計長，對於監察院針對政府特別預算常態化的這種看法，副主計長認不認同？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：謝謝委員的關心，實際上，我們所有編列特別預算一定要符合預算法第八十三條的條件，最近這幾年的特別預算一定是先有條例，經過大院……"],["林委員德福：我知道啊！那問題是監察院為什麼會調查呢？如果你認同的話，那你是不是尤其應該要給下一任主計長一些參考、建議？你要是不認為特別預算有常態化的現象，那是不是代表你認同行政院、行政機關對於預算法第八十三條的解釋應該是要往擴大解釋的方向走，是不是？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：基本上就是沒有所謂的擴大解釋，就是說我們一定是有那個需要，經過大院的同意，我們有條例在先才提出預算。"],["林委員德福：好，我請教副主計長，對於特別預算的必要性，主計總處在去年底曾發新聞稿表示，由於普通公務預算一年才編列一次，如果有特殊、大筆經費需求，需要到隔年的預算才能編列，已屬緩不濟急，所以須依法編列特別預算，並送立法院審議。副主計長，現在國民黨提出0403震災重建條例草案，要求編列150億元特別預算來協助重建，請問你認為0403震災特別預算經費是不是有必要？有沒有必要？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，當然預算法規定重大災變可以提特別預算……"],["林委員德福：對啊！"],["陳副主計長慧娟：不過因為現在災害防救法在921之後已經賦予可以移緩濟急，所以目前各部會在還沒有特別預算之前，其實已經都找到預算，趕快去進行災險跟重建的工作，所以盤點以後，目前已經有兩百八十幾億的需求，屬於113的部分照我們目前盤點的結果，以現有的機制足夠來支應。"],["林委員德福：可以支應？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是。"],["林委員德福：因為民進黨現在又責成行政院組成0403花蓮地震的專案小組，並規劃投入250億元，快速整合各部會資源全力投入重建，不需要另立特別條例，快又有效。我請問副主計長，到底特別預算的編列是要看經費需求的急迫性，還是要看哪個政黨執政才有特別預算編列與否的決定權呢？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，其實要不要編特別預算有兩個角度，一個當然就是急迫性，一個是規模，現在因為我們盤點的規模，以我們手上現有的這些災損金或者移緩濟急，還有賑災基金會等財源，是足夠支應的……"],["林委員德福：那哪時候可以確定呢？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：我們現在已經在進行了，已經都在執行了。"],["林委員德福：在執行？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是。"],["林委員德福：如果行政院能夠快速整合各部會資源籌措250億，不就坐實行政院年度預算是浮編嗎？你認為呢？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：跟委員報告，因為921的經驗，所以各部會比如交通部、農委會本來就有編了一些跟災害有關的預算，我們也要求地方政府或者中央，大家都有災害準備金的編列，所以應付災害的能力已經提升了。"],["林委員德福：我知道，但問題是地方政府沒有那麼多的預算，對於拿救災預算的經費合理化作為政治鬥爭籌碼的行為，本席不以為然，所以我一直認為一定要建立制度，而且要如何快速……畢竟像這樣的重大災害算是國家級的，不是只有花蓮，其他縣市有的也是滿嚴重的。","我再請教副主計長，台經院上個禮拜公布今年最新的經濟成長率預測為3.29%，比1月預測的上修0.14%，CPI年增率也上修到2.13%，而且因為受到電價調漲、物價上漲的牽動，以及中東地緣政治風險升溫的影響，加劇整個通膨的壓力，甚至於對國內輸入性通膨造成新一波的壓力，請問副主計長針對台經院對於經濟成長率CPI的預測有什麼看法？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：因為第一季實際的結果也的確比原來預測的還好，所以我們原來預估的3.43也有可能會往上調升。至於CPI，目前也考量了電價的調整，我們預估希望儘量控制在全年2%左右。"],["林委員德福：國內輸入性通膨的壓力是蠢蠢欲動還是已經出現了？你的看法呢？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：我想民眾主要感受是購買頻率很高的，的確會比較深，這個部分我們也會針對購買頻率比較高的去做CPI的比例，但是就平均而言，我們希望控制在2%左右。"],["林委員德福：好，最後一個，景氣復甦下，台經院是這樣的預測結果，請問副主計長認為今年第二季以後到底會更樂觀還是悲觀？你的看法呢？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：我們感覺應該是謹慎樂觀。"],["林委員德福：會不會持續不上不下？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：不會，應該是緩和的復甦。"],["林委員德福：這樣喔？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：是。"],["林委員德福：謝謝。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：謝謝委員。"],["主席（賴委員士葆代）：謝謝林委員的質詢。下一位請陳亭妃委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","陳亭妃","吳秉叡","賴士葆","萬美玲","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","王鴻薇","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","陳玉珍","張宏陸","游顥","陳秀寳","鄭正鈐","羅廷瑋","徐富癸","黃秀芳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","李坤城","陳素月","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","黃健豪","王美惠","范雲","張雅琳","林月琴","王正旭","賴瑞隆","吳春城","徐欣瑩","鍾佳濱","邱志偉","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","葉元之","蘇清泉","盧縣一","陳超明","李柏毅","林岱樺","劉建國","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王育敏","牛煦庭","吳琪銘","蔡易餘","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查或處理「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 4期特別預算(112至113年度)」及「中央政府疫後強\n化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算」決議：一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告\n案4案；二、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案9案；三、有關交通部主管預算凍結書面報告案\n14案；四、有關行政院農業委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案 3案；五、有關衛生福利部主管預算\n凍結書面報告案11案；六、有關文化部主管預算凍結書面報告案1案；七、有關數位發展部主管\n預算凍結書面報告案7案；八、有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案1案；九、有關內政部主\n管預算凍結書面報告案3案；十、有關行政院環境保護署預算凍結書面報告案1案；十一、有關國\n家科學及技術委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案","agenda_id":"1133901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.8240937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.585968750000003,"end":71.05784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.46284375,"end":72.10409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.40784375,"end":74.07846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.12909375000001,"end":89.21534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.64596875000001,"end":113.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.16096875000001,"end":116.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.70471875000001,"end":117.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.66659375,"end":117.78471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.78471875000001,"end":117.81846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.81846875000001,"end":117.97034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.97034375000001,"end":118.00409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.00409375000001,"end":118.02096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.02096875000001,"end":118.03784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.03784375000001,"end":129.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.96846875,"end":131.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.04846875,"end":131.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.31846875000002,"end":131.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.38596875000002,"end":173.01659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.21909375,"end":178.58534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.32784375,"end":180.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":180.10409375,"end":215.92971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.92971875,"end":215.94659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.94659375,"end":215.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":215.96346875,"end":252.86909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.63409375,"end":217.75221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":252.86909375000002,"end":274.36784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.49846875000003,"end":278.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.82284375,"end":286.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.93659375000004,"end":280.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.88909375000003,"end":291.64784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":290.97284375000004,"end":314.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.14221875000004,"end":326.42721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.33846875,"end":352.34721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.07284375,"end":354.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.92909375000005,"end":355.41846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":357.32534375,"end":398.56784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":398.90534375000004,"end":421.36596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":421.51784375000005,"end":428.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.17909375000005,"end":446.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":446.39159375,"end":458.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":458.77784375000005,"end":459.62159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":460.53284375000004,"end":467.97471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":467.97471875,"end":468.70034375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":468.70034375000006,"end":468.76784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":469.02096875,"end":473.07096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":469.27409375,"end":469.83096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":473.47596875000005,"end":474.99471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":475.36596875000004,"end":476.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":476.46284375000005,"end":480.83346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.249,"end":0.51,"text":"陳副主席"},{"start":12.688,"end":28.885,"text":"委員好你好 副組長你好因為再過幾天你們租組長就要卸任了那在8年任內行政院所提出的一些特別預算那監察院曾經在109年提出調查報告"},{"start":30.846,"end":48.436,"text":"說我們的特別預算編列有常態化的這種現象那政府恐將有將部分支出隱藏於這些前瞻計畫的特別預算裡面造成109年度總預算財政收支平衡之假象"},{"start":49.677,"end":66.814,"text":"那中央政府在推動前瞻計畫因為未能充分考量地方的財政以至於地方政府有挪移預算產生排擠的一個效應那我請問副組長對於監察院針對政府特別預算常態化的這種看法"},{"start":72.539,"end":99.468,"text":"副主席長你認不認同?謝謝委員這個關心實際上我們所有編列特別預算一定要符合預算法第83條的條件然後也最近這幾年的特別預算一定是先有條例經過我們大院我知道啊那問題是監察院為什麼要調查呢?如果你認同的話那你是不是應該要給下一任尤其你們應該給下一任的主席長有一些參考建議啊"},{"start":100.268,"end":117.042,"text":"如果你要是不認為說特別預算有常態化的現象,那是不是代表你認同行政院、行政機關對於預算法第83條的解釋應該是要這個往擴大解釋的方向走,是不是?"},{"start":118.082,"end":118.863,"text":"對於特別預算的必要性,"},{"start":137.337,"end":152.527,"text":"陳花新文稿表示,由於普通公務預算一年才編列一次,但如果有特殊大筆經費需求,需要到隔年的預算才能編列,移屬反不及急。"},{"start":154.068,"end":161.695,"text":"需依法編列特別預算並送立法院來審議。現在國民黨提出《0403 政災重建條例》草案,要求編列150億元特別預算來協助重建,請問你認為《0403 政災特別預算》經費是不是有必要?"},{"start":179.349,"end":206.385,"text":"有沒有必要?根文報告就是說當然我們預算法的規定就是重大災變可以提特別預算不過因為我們現在災害防救法已經在921之後已經賦予可以移緩計及所以目前各部會在還沒有特別預算之前其實已經都找到預算趕快去進行這個災險跟重建的工作所以目前盤點以後目前已經有"},{"start":207.145,"end":207.925,"text":"主席"},{"start":228.715,"end":249.645,"text":"快速的整合各部會資源權力來投入重建,不需要另立特別的條例,快又有效。那我請問副主席黨,到底特別預算的編列是要看經費需求的急迫性,還是要看哪個政黨執政才有特別預算編列與否的決定權呢?"},{"start":254.167,"end":274.133,"text":"其實這個要不要編特別預算有兩個角度一個就是說它的急迫性當然一個是它的規模那現在因為目前我們盤點的規模以我們現有的手上的這些災準金或者遺患基金等等還有政災基金會等財源是足夠支援的那哪時候可以確定呢"},{"start":275.663,"end":290.053,"text":"我們現在已經在進行了,已經都在執行了。在執行,因為行政院如果能夠快速整合各部會資源籌措250億,那不就是坐實了行政院年度預算是胡編嗎?"},{"start":292.496,"end":313.958,"text":"因為921的經驗所以各部會比如說交通部、農委會他們本來的預算就有編了一些跟災害有關的預算那我們也要求地方政府或者我們中央大家都有災害準備金的這樣的一個編列所以它的應付災害的能力已經提升了"},{"start":314.258,"end":324.927,"text":"我知道但是問題地方政府他沒有那麼多的預算啊因為本席對於吼拿救災預算的經費合理化來作為吼政治鬥爭籌碼的行為啊"},{"start":327.403,"end":352.011,"text":"本期是不以為然所以說我一直認為說這個一定要建立制度而且要怎麼快速因為畢竟像這樣的一個重大災害算是這個國家級的那你不是只有單一花蓮其他縣市有的也是蠻嚴重的那副組長我再請教這個"},{"start":357.726,"end":364.67,"text":"臺經院上禮拜公布今年最新的經濟成長率預測為3.29%比1月預測的0.14%上修0.14%。CPI年增率也上修到2.13%。而且因為受到"},{"start":376.978,"end":394.571,"text":"電價調漲、物價上漲的牽動以及中東地緣政治風險升溫的影響形成加劇整個通膨的一個壓力甚至於對國內輸入性通膨造成新一波的壓力那副主席長針對台積電對於經濟成長力CPI的預測請問你有什麼看法"},{"start":399.716,"end":427.962,"text":"因為第一季我們的實際的結果也的確比原來預測的還好所以我們原來預估的3.43也有可能會往上調升那至於CPI就是目前就是也考量了這個電價的調整我們預估也盡量希望就是大概控制在全年在2%左右因為那個國內輸入性通貨的壓力已經是蠢蠢欲動還是已經出現了?你的看法呢?"},{"start":429.386,"end":456.62,"text":"我想民眾主要感受是說他購買頻率很高的那他感受的確會比較深那這個部分我們也會針對購買頻率比較高的去做的一個CPI的這個比例但是就平均而言我們希望控制在2%左右好最後一個警器護書下的台青院是這樣預測結果那請問副主席長你認為今年第二季以後到底會更樂觀還是會悲觀"},{"start":458.82,"end":459.08,"text":"陳婷薇委員質詢"}]}},{"id":"152010","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152010","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1429bca7dc67d1a8ed5e9ec982727c87755be169921a0a717eac46a44ad82f52c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王定宇","委員發言時間":"09:33:27 - 09:45:47","影片長度":"00:12:20","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議（事由：邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「外交部如何構建友善工作環境暨人員心理輔導具體做法」，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":17,"committees":[35],"id":"委員會-11-1-35-17"},"duration":740,"end_time":"2024-05-02T09:45:47+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:33:27+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":99,"blocks":[["王委員定宇：（9時33分）謝謝主席，麻煩部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["吳部長釗燮：委員早。"],["王委員定宇：部長，以後要在301看到你可能要相當久、相當久以後的時間了。"],["吳部長釗燮：301是美國301條款嗎？"],["王委員定宇：301是這個房間啦！這幾年很榮幸跟你共事。"],["吳部長釗燮：是，謝謝委員。"],["王委員定宇：我們今天的題目是討論外交部同仁的工作狀況，其實我們常常在外交委員會探討工作績效，面對的競爭、國外的情形、邀請的訪賓，可是執行這些績效的人的工作負荷（loading），有時候一個機關要運作，無兵就沒有將，所以今天這個題目很好。根據大法官釋字第785號解釋，公務員服務法及公務人員保障法規定，要落實服勤工時及加班補償相關規範，以警政單位為例，像我服務的臺南市，我選區裡面的派出所就因為要符合規範，把一些派出所合併，讓人多一點，這樣輪休的時候就不會影響勤務，都跟這個大法官解釋有關係，這是大法官釋字，我們當然要尊重，它是憲法階層。","我們在外交上的工作，常常會因為對方或服務的對象而定，或因為地緣政治或國內外政治氛圍來決定，工作時間、內容及場域不是外交部同仁可以預先規劃的，我規劃未來3個禮拜工作什麼、第4個禮拜要來度假了，很難啦！階級越低越難，有時候最辛苦的館員，各位來到這邊坐，大概都已經到一定level以上了，請你回憶你剛從外交學院出去的時候，垃圾桶都要倒，不只是要做很雜，還要做好多好多事情，這樣工作loading重，加上外交是全球工作，有點像國際貿易公司，時差的關係，所以導致工作負荷。","我前幾個禮拜去河內，我就在旁邊觀察，那些年輕的館員很優秀，越南話也很會講，跟當地政府也很能互動，他不管忙到多晚，接近半夜，負責打電報的說：「委員，我負責打電報，要趕回駐處發電報。」他還要工作。而我去看他們在審這些移工簽證的時候，那個人多到，我相信有去的委員都有看到，排到房間坐滿，一直排、排、排、排到後面走廊，再迴轉一直排下去，而且那是一天兩班其中的一班而已，所以這工作loading重。","那工作的loading重大概有兩種方式來處理，第一個，人力的配置，所以部長你看，我們統計最近從2019年、2020年、2021年、2022年到2023年，每一年辭職人數、退休人數及新入職人數，在2023年多1個，大概我們跟國際主流國家互動的績效出來了，所以離退人數比較少一點，但整個累積數光算這五年，差額41人，就是不足41個啦！部長對於這些缺額到底什麼原因，外交部有什麼計畫？"],["吳部長釗燮：有關於委員稍早講的這些部分，的確是講到我們外交部同仁很辛苦的地方，譬如說，有委員到某一個國家參訪，或者是有高層出訪，甚至是有重要的高層會議，我們同仁一定要在會議之後、在參訪之後，就必須要去寫電報，寫電報不是說馬上寫、馬上好，這都需要花時間，因此我們同仁的工作時間的確是跟其他單位是不一樣的，我們外交部同仁也有很高度的使命感，就是他一定要很快把它做好。另外有涉及到一些任務型工作的話，是以該任務完成為主，這個也很難去思考到那個……"],["王委員定宇：很多事情有事前的準備就要花很長時間嘛！"],["吳部長釗燮：對，沒有錯。"],["王委員定宇：還有事後的回饋嘛！那工作份量剛才你說的，打電報要花很長時間，有時候我們會想到加班費，坦白講，人是人，不是機器，有時候該增加員額要增加員額……"],["吳部長釗燮：我知道。"],["王委員定宇：否則有性命賺加班費，沒性命可以花，所以我剛才講，我現在看這個人力是進來報名考試的人比較少，還是合格的人比較少？為什麼會累計缺額到這個數字出來？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個細節的部分，我請人事處處長來說明。"],["王委員定宇：請說，我後面還有一個問題。"],["黃處長麗玲：跟委員報告一下，剛剛委員有提到工時問題，以前我們駐外機構是沒有加班費，也沒有補休，可是因為第785號解釋的時候，我們整個都改變過來了，所以我們也讓外館同仁也有補休，尤其是我們責成外館館長，當事情告一段落的時候，要安排他補休假，這都是我們一直要求……"],["王委員定宇：按照第785號解釋開始有加班費、開始有重量工作之後的補休，這些有沒有管考表？"],["黃處長麗玲：有，我們都有。"],["王委員定宇：你們可以不揭露個資，但是本席要看……"],["黃處長麗玲：是，我們都有。"],["王委員定宇：就是某個駐處現在辦了一個國際重要會議、某個駐處最近有個外交任務，那後續的排休、館員有多少、local staff有多少、怎麼排休，因為我們希望真的落實到照顧需要照顧的人，他有辛苦付出，我們就照顧他，這部分請原諒我要比較嚴厲一點，我要看到你們事後排休的順序，好不好？"],["黃處長麗玲：是。"],["王委員定宇：但是如果加班費跟排休還不足以消化這裡，你們有沒有增加一些員額的計畫？"],["黃處長麗玲：員額的部分基本上我們每一年都有招考外交特考，所以我們這次的57期他們如果在7月完成6個月的實務訓練之後，7月15號他們就會分派到各個單位去，來做我們的生力軍。"],["王委員定宇：每年都有生力軍。"],["黃處長麗玲：是。"],["王委員定宇：你們這批生力軍，我們前兩個禮拜才去看而已，希望我們今天的詢答不會讓他減少數量，訓完即離職。好，我跑快一點，這個部分我就沒辦法在這邊討論。","部長或者相關的司長，思考一下外交部有沒有工作減量的方法，我對國軍也是一樣要求，就是說有些paperwork有沒有重複的？有些會不會太官僚體系可以簡化的？這個要花點時間，甚至於是專業的管理人才來思考，就是一個工作透過科技的協助做一次完成5項，現在則是要分5次做，我不知道還有沒有這個啦！這要讓部長至少你離職以前，開始來做處理。","我下面要講的部分是有關外交人員的婚姻狀況，我沒辦法在這邊統計各位現在婚姻狀態如何，不好在這邊問，都是個人隱私。我講一個故事，我上一次去法蘭克福，因為要去立陶宛開會，然後法蘭克福機場出來，剛好要轉機的時間有兩、三個小時，我就在法蘭克福，你們外交的老學長帶我到附近一個廣場，然後坐在那邊，天氣很舒服，陽光灑著，德國廣場都有啤酒，他就說他快退休了，那我說你退休去哪裡，他說不知道，他說他一輩子外交人員，年輕的時候，太太跟著他派外，後來因為教育的需求，所以孩子就留在美國，他就派到另外一個單位，後來就離婚了，他們家4個人大概分據4個國家或3個國家，然後他要退休，我說那你就回臺灣，他說臺灣也找不到親人了，西門町房子也賣了。我不是說每個外交人員最後都這樣子，否則你們這邊嚇得都跑光光了，這是我遇到的案例。我們外交同仁就我一般認識瞭解起來，離婚率偏高，以目前外交部已婚職員最新的統計有900位同仁是已經結婚的，占了人員54%，另外46%大概就是現在站在那邊跑來跑去、比較年輕的；配偶都是外交部的，這900人裡面有108人、54對，占總職員數大概6.5%，我先請教部長，你瞭解外交部同仁離婚率跟社會上比較起來有沒有比較高，還是差不多而已？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個部分我沒有仔細去研究，但是有兩點，第一點就是委員剛剛講到要減輕工作負擔，我到外交部之後，這個是我非常努力的方向，譬如說，用一些現代的科技或者是通訊設備，可以讓一些本來很複雜的事情變得很簡單，也變得很有效率。第二點就是夫妻同館，或者是夫妻在一起服務的這個事情，其實我們外交部的同仁都感受非常深刻，我到外交部之後對於夫妻同館這個事情，我是希望能夠儘量……"],["王委員定宇：後來有開始規劃儘量在同單位服務。"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有錯，我們在場就有夫妻。"],["王委員定宇：除非兩個都很優秀。"],["吳部長釗燮：兩個都很優秀。"],["王委員定宇：除非兩個都很優秀，升到大使級的那就很難派外時同館。"],["吳部長釗燮：對，沒有錯，而且有直屬工作關係的話，這也不太合適，但是夫妻同館，基本上這個是我們鼓勵的方向。"],["王委員定宇：禮賓處處長是我學弟，我那時候去溫哥華看到他的時候，他剛好要派三聖嘛！他就要考慮孩子跟老婆留在加拿大，他要去……"],["吳部長釗燮：對，沒有錯……"],["王委員定宇：這都面臨抉擇，所以我最後提出如果合署辦公、同館辦公，這是一個好的安排，因為工作壓力大，有時候真的不是加班費或者休息時間可以解決，人跟人在共同的場域、有共同的話題、共同的陪伴，這對紓解壓力有幫助。"],["吳部長釗燮：沒有錯。"],["王委員定宇：對家庭維繫也有幫助，這一點是對的，可以往那邊規劃。那派外的話，當然如果他們有職務上的利益，這要有一些利益上的分別管理，但儘量去配合他，我不知道國外的駐館怎麼處理，這部分可以細心來處理。","最後一個是如果他的配偶不是外交人員，你知道我看到女的外交人員派外的時候，坦白講，遇到的困難比男性多，一般先生在臺灣有工作，大概不太願意辭職跟著他到天涯海角，雖然男女平等，但社會的現象是女性比較甘願，他可能本來在銀行工作，辭了就跟著老公到海外去了，他本來是有專長的，他一去變人生地不熟、沒有工作，我們當然有生活補助費嘛！大概1,000塊美金左右，對於另外一半一起派外，如果有工作需求，目前外交部有沒有協助的方案？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個我請人事處長說一下，因為我還沒有處理過……"],["王委員定宇：因為我時間到了，請摘要說一下。"],["黃處長麗玲：跟委員報告，剛剛部長已經有說過，基本上我們一直很鼓勵夫妻同館，對於隨同我們駐外同仁到國外去的話，基本上就是有房租補助費，這些我們尤其是在……"],["王委員定宇：這是生活補助，川裝費那個都有補助。"],["黃處長麗玲：對，尤其是部長在任內的時候有特別針對未成年房租補助費加成，也就是說，我們希望他們能夠家庭團聚。"],["王委員定宇：因為我的時間到了，我只問對於配偶隨同派外，我們在當地的主管能不能幫忙，如果他有工作需求的話，有沒有辦法安排他或者local staff來做一下支援的工作？有沒有可能？"],["黃處長麗玲：這個可能是我們未來要規劃、努力的一點。"],["王委員定宇：因為人不單純是為了錢而存在，有時候工作的成就感也滿重要的，所以部長，這個給你們去規劃一下好不好？"],["吳部長釗燮：這個跟剛剛陳委員所提出來的其實是一致的，我們來考慮。"],["王委員定宇：好，謝謝。"],["吳部長釗燮：謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請徐巧芯委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-17","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","徐巧芯","洪申翰","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","林楚茵","羅智強","黃仁","林憶君"],"page_start":73,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「外交部如何構建友善工作環境暨人員心理輔導具體做法」，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1133801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.26721875,"end":2.0897187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.34284375,"end":3.2372187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.059093750000002,"end":14.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.15534375,"end":17.395343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.15096875,"end":15.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.14221875,"end":27.351593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.71096875,"end":23.554718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.68909375,"end":33.08909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.35909375,"end":38.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.05909375,"end":36.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.438468750000006,"end":40.59846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.712218750000005,"end":42.353468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.619093750000005,"end":45.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.69471875,"end":45.728468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.09971875,"end":47.88846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.377843750000004,"end":49.01909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.508468750000006,"end":50.43659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.689718750000004,"end":52.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.204093750000006,"end":53.828468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.790343750000005,"end":58.13159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.40159375,"end":65.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":65.43846875,"end":80.45721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.64284375000001,"end":106.37721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":106.88346875,"end":107.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.38971875,"end":108.82409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.44846875,"end":110.89971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.30471875,"end":116.46846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.42659375000001,"end":114.52784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.49784375,"end":121.04159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.76721875000001,"end":130.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.41971875000002,"end":132.21284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.68534375000002,"end":140.43096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.98784375,"end":143.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.09284375000001,"end":145.27409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.44284375,"end":149.61096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":150.25221875,"end":153.15471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.35721875000002,"end":154.75784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.92659375000002,"end":156.15846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.49596875,"end":166.73909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.26221875000002,"end":174.72096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.72096875,"end":174.94034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":175.69971875000002,"end":181.94346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":181.97721875000002,"end":195.49409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":196.35471875000002,"end":203.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":204.04971875,"end":209.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.02784375000002,"end":263.34846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.90159375,"end":261.45846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.34846875,"end":265.72784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":263.36534375,"end":264.86721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":266.26784375,"end":273.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":273.79409375,"end":295.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.52784375000005,"end":277.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.54034375000003,"end":278.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":282.77159375,"end":283.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.02284375,"end":297.14909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.59659375,"end":296.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":297.14909375,"end":297.18284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.30909375000005,"end":326.68034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.29221875,"end":326.93346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":326.95034375,"end":326.96721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.00096875,"end":334.84784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.95846875,"end":329.34659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.13971875000004,"end":330.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":335.11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tart":0.833,"end":1.758,"text":"謝謝主席麻煩部長請部長"},{"start":9.11,"end":37.712,"text":"委員老闆 不對 議員老闆還要在301看到你可能要最久最久議員老闆的時間301是美國301條款嗎301是這個房間很榮幸跟你共事這幾年今天這個題目是在討論我們外交部的同仁的工作狀況其實我們常常在外交委員會探討的都是工作績效面對的競爭 國外的情形 邀請的訪兵"},{"start":38.533,"end":53.563,"text":"可是在執行這些績效的人其實他們的工作的loading負荷有時候一個機關要運作無兵就沒有將所以今天題目很好那我先"},{"start":54.878,"end":79.508,"text":"根據大法官釋字785號解釋我們公務員服務法及公人員保障法規定要落實扶勤的工時及加班補償相關規範警政單位像我服務的台南市我的選區裡面的派出所就因為要符合這規範把一些派出所合併讓他人多一點這樣輪休的時候不會影響勤務都跟這個大法官解釋是有關係的"},{"start":80.788,"end":108.514,"text":"那這是大法官勢至我們當然要尊重他是憲法這階層那我們在外交上的工作常常會因為對方或服務的對象而定或因為地緣政治或因為國內外政治氛圍來決定那個工作時間跟內容跟場域不是外交部同仁可以預先規劃的我規劃未來三個禮拜工作什麼第四個禮拜我要來度假了很難啊階級越低越難"},{"start":109.654,"end":120.862,"text":"有時候我們最辛苦的管員各位來到這邊做大家都已經到一定level以上了請你回憶你剛從外交學院出去的時候垃圾桶都要倒啊還不只是要做好多好多事情"},{"start":121.823,"end":149.411,"text":"那這樣工作loading重加上全球外交是全球工作有點像國際貿易公司時差的關係所以就導致工作負荷那我前幾個禮拜去河內我就在旁邊觀察我們那些年輕的港元很優秀越南話也很會講跟當地的政府也很能互動他不管忙到多晚接近半夜負責打電報說我負責打電報要趕回住處要發電報那是他的工作"},{"start":150.359,"end":174.175,"text":"而我去看他們在審這一些移工的簽證的時候哇那個人多到我相信有去的委員都有看到那個排到房間坐滿了一直排排排排到外面走廊走廊再回轉一直排排下去而且那是一天兩班其中的一班而已所以是工作loading重那工作的loading重呢我們大概有兩種方式來處理第一個人力的配置所以保長你看齁"},{"start":176.145,"end":201.99,"text":"我們統計了最近從2019年2020年2021年2022年到2023年每一年的辭職的人數退休的人數跟新入職的人數在2023年多一個大概我們跟國際主流國家這個互動的績效出來了所以這個離退人數比較少一點但整個累計過我光算這五年差額41億"},{"start":207.908,"end":221.413,"text":"有關於那個委員稍早講的這些部分那的確是講到我們外交部通人的那個很辛苦的地方比如說有委員到某一個國家去參訪"},{"start":222.333,"end":244.196,"text":"或者是說有那個高層的出訪那甚至是有重要的這個高層的會議那我們的同仁是一定要在會議之後在參訪之後就必須要去寫電報那這個寫電報不是說馬上寫馬上好那這個都需要花時間因此我們同仁的這個工作的這個時間的確是跟其他的單位是不一樣的"},{"start":244.776,"end":271.537,"text":"那我們外交部的同仁也有有很高度的這個使命感就是說我這個一定要很快把它給做好那另外有涉及到一些任務啊任務型的這些工作的話那是以這個任務完成為主那這個也很難去思考到那個很多事情有事前的準備就要花很長時間還有事後的回饋那工作分量中像你說的打電報要花很長時間有時候我們會想到加班費坦白講"},{"start":274.677,"end":294.367,"text":"人是人不是機器,有時候該增加員額要增加員額,否則齁,有那個生命賺那個加班費齁,沒有生命賺錢啦。所以我剛才講,我現在是靠看我們這個人力,我們現在是進來報名考試的人比較少,還是合格的人比較少,為什麼會累計缺額到這個數字出來?這個部分齁,細節的部分我請人事處處長來做說明。"},{"start":299.606,"end":307.41,"text":"跟委員報告一下當委員提到那個工時問題委員我想跟你報告一下就是以前我們駐外機構是沒有加班費也沒有補休可是因為785號解釋的時候我們整個都改變過來了所以我們也讓我們的外管同仁他們要補休尤其是我們責成我們的外管館長當事情告一段落的時候你要安排安排他補休假這都是我們一直要求"},{"start":327.259,"end":349.587,"text":"按照785號解釋還能開始有加班費是開始有重量的工作之後的補修這些有沒有管考表有我們都有你可以不揭露各自的本席要看是我們都有現在辦了一個國際重要會議某個處處我們最近有一個外交任務那後續的排修他有管員多少local staff有多少他怎麼排修因為"},{"start":350.731,"end":360.487,"text":"我們希望真的落實到需要照顧的人他有辛苦付出我們就要照顧他這部分請原諒我要比較嚴厲一點我要看到你們那個事後排休的這個順序好不好"},{"start":362.349,"end":376.574,"text":"如果加班費跟排休還不足以消化這裡,我們有沒有增加一些原額的計畫?對,那個原額的部分呢,因為我們每一年呢,基本上我們每一年都有招考那個外交特考,所以我們這個這一次的57期他們已經就是完成了,如果在7月完成了6個月的實務訓練之後,我們7月15號他們就會分派到我們的各個單位裡面去,來做我們的生力軍。"},{"start":387.717,"end":416.746,"text":"每年都有生力軍你們這批生力軍我們前兩個禮拜才去看而已希望我們今天的詢答不會讓他減少數量訓完即離職我跑快一點就是這個部分我就沒辦法在這邊討論部長或者我們相關的司長思考一下外交部有沒有工作減量的方法我對國軍也是這樣要求就是說有些paper work有沒有重複的有些會不會太官僚體系我可以簡化的這個要花點時間甚至於是專業的管理人才來思考"},{"start":417.586,"end":442.637,"text":"一個工作透過科技的協助我做一次完成五項那現在是要分五次做我不知道還有沒有這個啦這個給部長最沒力氣以前這個部分開始來做處理我下面要講這個部分是有關我們外交人員的婚姻狀況我沒辦法在這邊統計各位現在婚姻狀態如何啦這個不好在這邊問都個人領事我講一個故事我上一次去法輪客服那因為要去立陶宛開會"},{"start":444.226,"end":461.502,"text":"然後呢法蘭克福機場出來剛好要轉機的時間有兩三個小時我就坐在法蘭克福那個外交一個你們的老學長帶我到附近一個廣場然後坐在那邊天氣很舒服陽光灑著那你知道德國那種廣場都有啤酒啊"},{"start":462.483,"end":489.689,"text":"他就講說他快退休了我說那退休要去哪裡他說不知道他說他一輩子外交人員年輕的時候太太跟著他派外後來因為教育的需求所以孩子就留在美國他就派到另外一個單位然後他就離婚了孩子也分居他們家四個人大概分居四個國家或三個國家然後他要退休我說那就回台灣他說台灣也找不到親人了西門町那個房子也賣了我不是說每個外交人員最後都這樣子我說你們這邊下的都跑風光"},{"start":491.261,"end":513.923,"text":"這是我遇到案例我們外交同仁就我一般認識了解起來離婚率偏高以目前外交部已婚職員我最新的統計有900位是同仁是已經結婚的佔了我們的人員的54%那個另外46%大概就是現在站在那邊跑來跑去比較年輕的那"},{"start":515.165,"end":540.243,"text":"配偶都是外交部的這900人裡面有108人有54對占總職員數大概6.5%我先請教保長你了解起來我們外交部同仁離婚率跟社會上比較起來有沒有比較高還是差不多而已這個部分我沒有仔細去做研究但是有兩點第一點就是委員剛剛講到說要減輕工作負擔那我到外交部"},{"start":540.883,"end":541.003,"text":"後來開始規劃進行"},{"start":568.506,"end":584.378,"text":"對沒有錯沒有錯我們在場就有夫妻除非兩個都很優秀兩個都很優秀除非兩個都很優秀升到大使級的那就很難派外的都同管而且有直屬工作關係的話這個也不太合適但是夫妻同管基本上這個是我們鼓勵的這個方向"},{"start":585.758,"end":607.745,"text":"我們李斌處處長是我學弟啊我那時候去溫哥華看到他的時候你剛好要去派那個三聖嘛他就要考慮孩子跟老婆要留在加拿大要去所以這個都會面臨抉擇所以我最後就是提出就是如果同署辦公同管辦公這是一個好的因為工作壓力大有時候真的不是加班費或者休息時間"},{"start":609.145,"end":638.087,"text":"人跟人在共同的場域有共同的話題是共同的陪伴這個對紓解壓力有幫助沒有錯對家庭維繫也有幫助這一點是對的可以往那邊規劃那派外的話如果他們是有當然職務上利益不能不能這個要有一些利益上的分別的管理但盡量去配合他我不知道國外的住管怎麼處理這部分可以細心來處理最後一個是如果他的配偶不是外交人員你知道我看到女的外交人員"},{"start":638.747,"end":664.497,"text":"他派外的時候坦白講遇到困難比男性多一般先生在台灣有工作大概不太願意辭職跟在他天涯海角雖然男女平等但社會的現象是女性比較甘願他可能本來在銀行工作就辭了就跟著老公到海外去了他本來是有專長的他也去遍人生地不熟沒有工作那我們當然有生活補助費大概一千萬美金左右"},{"start":665.996,"end":672.067,"text":"對於另外一半一起派外,如果有工作需求,目前外交部有沒有協助的方案?"},{"start":680.635,"end":697.998,"text":"跟委員報告,剛剛部長已經有說過基本上我們一直很鼓勵夫妻同管那對於有隨同跟我們駐外同仁到國外去的話基本上就是有房補費、房租補助費這些我們尤其是在部長在任內的時候有特別針對於未成年的房租補助費的加成也就是說我們希望他們能夠"},{"start":709.6,"end":711.762,"text":"這跟剛剛陳委員所提出來其實是一致的讓我們來考慮"},{"start":739.48,"end":739.514,"text":"MING PAO CANADA"}]}},{"id":"152009","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152009","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db146ae50626cc43dc7d575e50b9cd8685a55be169921a0a717ed97af83b71729ba5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:36:06 - 09:45:27","影片長度":"00:09:21","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員王育敏等19人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【以上議案，如經復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-14"},"duration":561,"end_time":"2024-05-02T09:45:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:36:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":4.7897187500000005,"end":7.101593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.590343750000002,"end":12.113468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.125968750000002,"end":16.028468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.38284375,"end":29.96721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":30.473468750000002,"end":53.55846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.09846875,"end":75.12471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.46221875,"end":87.91596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.87784375000001,"end":88.96221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.96221875,"end":89.48534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.87346875,"end":89.89034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.89034375,"end":98.51346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.59784375000001,"end":113.07659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.43096875,"end":127.16721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.53846875,"end":127.79159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.79159375,"end":127.85909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.99409375000002,"end":170.45159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.26159375,"end":180.66096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.89721875,"end":187.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":188.62596875,"end":200.15159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.47221875000002,"end":204.89346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.31534375,"end":211.08659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.35659375,"end":217.54971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.13659375,"end":223.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":223.18596875,"end":223.86096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":224.58659375000002,"end":224.60346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":224.60346875000002,"end":239.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.57159375,"end":259.02846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.23096875000005,"end":259.26471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.26471875000004,"end":259.28159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":259.28159375,"end":259.29846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":259.29846875000004,"end":266.74034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.39846875,"end":296.01846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.27159375,"end":299.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":299.44409375000004,"end":303.96659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.67534375,"end":304.94534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.08034375,"end":318.31034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":318.91784375000003,"end":341.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.72346875,"end":321.28034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":341.83409375,"end":347.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.01034375,"end":348.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":348.22971875,"end":349.02284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.73159375,"end":376.59659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":378.48659375,"end":382.97534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":382.57034375,"end":400.82909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.35659375,"end":401.14971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.60534375000003,"end":407.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.41034375000004,"end":407.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":408.32159375000003,"end":410.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":410.76846875,"end":413.95784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.63284375,"end":416.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.53534375000004,"end":421.58534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":422.51346875,"end":425.97284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":426.14159375,"end":430.03971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":429.02721875000003,"end":441.54846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.35846875000004,"end":444.07971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":444.33284375000005,"end":445.48034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":445.95284375000006,"end":451.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":451.75784375,"end":453.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":454.66034375000004,"end":478.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":477.57659375000003,"end":485.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":485.32221875000005,"end":493.40534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":494.23221875,"end":496.72971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":496.99971875000006,"end":500.27346875},{"speaker":"SPE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bicyn 要怎麼去避免?因為今天要談的是62條,就是我們的排擠社會預算的一些效應。"},{"start":189.744,"end":207.984,"text":"這個部分的話當然就是會等下委員也可以問主席總書,但是預算編列大概是這樣子,我們現在就要編概算了,明年的概算。如果說這個法通過的話,如果它是通過的是1.1億元,那我們明年就要編1,150億的公務預算進來。"},{"start":211.454,"end":227.023,"text":"所以這就是我很擔心,如果編到這樣的話,會不會排擠到我們很關心的社會福利預算?當然最後是主席總署這邊可能會有更詳細的一個說明。因為底層的社會問題要解決,真的要靠經費預算。"},{"start":229.404,"end":231.105,"text":" bicyn Kwan-hung,"},{"start":244.514,"end":247.096,"text":" bicyn Kwan-yong 則擬具"},{"start":267.415,"end":284.684,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":285.043,"end":304.889,"text":"�"},{"start":305.202,"end":317.548,"text":" bicyn 美典事實上是0.95元或是還是1元的話都將破壞現行壓縮每點價格的彈性所造成的效果就是天花板就要被掀開來"},{"start":318.933,"end":341.442,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":341.834,"end":356.561,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":356.869,"end":376.613,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":378.439,"end":394.599,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":394.787,"end":421.886,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":422.534,"end":451.578,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":451.94,"end":476.865,"text":"因為對他們來講那的確剛剛前面委員有提到可是所以就想問醫事團體這樣提可是事實上相對的也有其他的團體像醫療改革跟健保監督團體表示反對所以如果貿然打破天花板的話民眾的這個保費勢必要翻漲的話那過去有沒有進行先去做溝通"},{"start":478.265,"end":492.934,"text":"我跟委員報告,這裡面還有兩個小細節,如果說保障一點議員的話,有兩個小細節會造成以後的風險會越來越高。第一個就是支付標準要不要調。"},{"start":494.304,"end":519.769,"text":"netesure 標準就我做這樣服務的話那調支付標準就是單價提高如果1.1元的話單每一個你的服務量都沒有變但是支付標準一提高的話那就會更加提高但是現在支付標準還是存在了一些不合理或者是說需要去做調整比方說兒科的支付標準應該要增加那這個部分的話如果說"},{"start":521.462,"end":545.131,"text":"一點議員的話,我們1100億就丟進去了之後的話,這個支付標準幾乎就不要動了。不太可能還有足夠的錢再來調整這個。所以部長應該也同意,應該要聽聽其他人的聲音,不是只有一單一的,否則的話也會造成,就像我剛剛擔憂的,社福團體或者是民眾他們的壓迫感,甚至有些人本來就健保費繳不出來的話,"},{"start":546.591,"end":546.871,"text":"二、國民黨黨團擬具"}]}},{"id":"152008","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152008","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1602d326c66a6792fe12ebde737ab3c1955be169921a0a717218123113ebae4d35ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:42:35 - 09:45:31","影片長度":"00:02:56","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員柯志恩等17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（詢答及處理，委員郭國文等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-10"},"duration":176,"end_time":"2024-05-02T09:45:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:42:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":2.5453437500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.497843750000001,"end":10.594718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.763468750000001,"end":25.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.309718750000002,"end":38.455343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.01221875,"end":125.10846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.54721875000001,"end":131.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.60534375,"end":132.29721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.48284375,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.35471875000002,"end":159.56721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":151.11284375,"end":151.38284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":159.88784375,"end":172.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.13409375,"end":177.62346875}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.311,"end":1.558,"text":"我們請郭國文委員做體驗說明"},{"start":9.797,"end":37.942,"text":"感謝主席、我們經濟委員會、我們各位委員還有在場的王美花部長本席針對中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二提出修正草案的看法是原來的條文其實是有如殭屍條文重看且不能用但是我們就一直期待說我們經濟部所提出的這一個條款內容當中是不是有更精進之處但是就經濟部所提的說"},{"start":39.382,"end":62.776,"text":"現在的修正案當中,可能可以造成的運版的可以通過4000個工作機會,然後帶動207家企業加薪,那5850名員工受惠。老師說,就如果修法,我們動用這麼大的修法的成本,耗費這麼多的行政週夜跟流程,而達到這樣的效果,我是老實說,實在是非常非常划不來。"},{"start":63.596,"end":87.913,"text":"而就整體的163家的中小企業來說,913萬的勞工相比,這個數字真的是微乎其微。所以我真的覺得目前的院版的版本是在過於保守。基本上我們對加薪抵稅的條款賦予相當高的期待,但是我真的覺得應該要好好換寬,因此本行提出一個相關的修正案。特別是最近我們整個GDP的占比,"},{"start":88.353,"end":110.333,"text":""},{"start":110.413,"end":128.593,"text":"也就是說GDP的這個經濟成果的共享顯然非常的一個不均衡也不公平而方向上也跟其他國家不一致所以說因此我跟院版的部分有一個主要條文的一個變化跟差異在第一個取消經濟景氣指數要件也就是取消失業率的門檻那將獎勵常態化"},{"start":131.696,"end":159.117,"text":"第二個也把這個年齡的門檻做一個區隔。第一個只要徵聘本國的員工的部分檢出的比例就應該提升為150%但如果特定對象的部分就24歲以下或45歲以上也就是說目前經濟部的條款當中院版的條款當中規範的這個特定對象特定年齡的對象的部分檢出的比例更應該提高到200%那這樣的情況底下我相信會相對有誘因"},{"start":159.838,"end":177.585,"text":"議員長"}]}},{"id":"152007","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152007","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1a3413eb5f259f470e12ebde737ab3c1955be169921a0a7176ffb1ffb47bf31ea5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱議瑩","委員發言時間":"09:33:00 - 09:42:33","影片長度":"00:09:33","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員柯志恩等17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（詢答及處理，委員郭國文等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-10"},"duration":573,"end_time":"2024-05-02T09:42:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:33:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":146,"blocks":[["邱委員議瑩：（9時33分）謝謝主席，請部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長早。部長，我們今天在審查中小企業發展條例，還是要先跟您請教一下，有關現在整個中小企業的概況，我們看到國家銀行對中小企業的放款餘額，在2023年底是九兆七千六百多億，雖然看起來比過去的幅度低，但是很顯然企業資金的需求動能還在，臺灣中小企業現在占全體企業高達98%以上，可以提供九百多萬個工作機會，所以今天行政院跟很多委員也都提出了中小企業發展條例的修正草案。","部長，這次修法有幾個重點，第一個，當然是我們要增僱員工的租稅優惠，現在要增加納入45歲以上中高齡及高齡者為適用對象，增僱員工租稅優惠的加成減除率提高到150%，本席的版本是175%，部長，您怎麼看？包括何欣純委員提的一個案子是希望納入到55歲以上，我覺得其實55歲以上都還算是壯年，都還算是一個非常成熟、非常精壯的年代。部長，還是直接就我上面提的問題，你怎麼看？就是說您同不同意，如果我們把這個年齡再往上提高；第二個，這樣的租稅優惠，你們估算會不會產生稅損？"],["王部長美花：第一個，我們這一次有納入45歲以上，所以只要是45歲以上就可以享用這樣的減稅加成。"],["邱委員議瑩：如果我們再拉一個級距呢？"],["王部長美花：那就除非是兩個不同……"],["邱委員議瑩：比如說我再拉一個級距，如55歲或是65歲以上，租稅的加成減除率可以到200%，如果再拉一個級距起來，您覺得呢？"],["王部長美花：因為我們有去算過，65歲以上的人相關再就業的比例非常、非常低，所以即使是訂一個65歲以上的級距，事實上效果沒有很大。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，我就是要讓您看一下這一張圖，我也曾經在院會總質詢的時候有提出，其實臺灣現在65歲的勞動參與率只有9.62%，就像您講的，65歲以上再就業的比例非常低。但是你看到日本，他們其實一直在鼓勵他們的高齡人口再就業，或者是延長退休年紀，我覺得臺灣相對來講，現在65歲看起來都還非常年輕，他如果能夠持續在職場上發揮他的經驗、發揮他的能力，我覺得如果有一些中小企業能夠回聘這些所謂的中高齡者，讓他們來發揮他們的專長，在中小企業裡面提供一些他們的經驗分享，甚至導入更多的經營觀念、作法，是不是有可能讓這些中高齡再就業的勞動參與率能夠上升？我不曉得行政院或你們經濟部有沒有做過這樣的相關討論？"],["王部長美花：兩個問題，第一個就是現在勞基法讓65歲以上可以繼續工作的部分，目前臺灣的機制有了，而這個法律的修改是針對65歲以上，就像委員講的，讓他再回聘時給他加成減除，這是第一個；第二個，事實上，在勞動部有非常多的機制，針對中高齡或高齡就業的部分有非常多的補助機制。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以您覺得不適合放在我們今天的提案，去做65歲以上這樣的……"],["王部長美花：對，65歲以上的部分，勞動部已經有相關的補助。"],["邱委員議瑩：就回到勞動部的勞動基準法的相關補助去做討論。"],["王部長美花：對，它有相關補助。"],["邱委員議瑩：部長，我也再跟您請教第二個問題，就是跟這個法條有關，你們講到說，限制中小企業最近3年若有因違反環保、勞工或食安等相關法律且情節重大，經各中央目的事業主管機關認定者，就不得申請此條例的租稅優惠。部長，前一陣子寶林茶室的中毒案大家都非常關心，在更早之前，所謂的蘇丹紅，應該是同一組人馬創立了10間不同的公司，類似像這樣的重大食安案件，請問你們要怎麼查，你們會怎麼查？如何認定它叫做情節重大，是經濟部自己來認定呢，還是會會同其他的部會來認定？"],["王部長美花：我們會請相關的單位來幫我們認定。目前政府的資訊系統就這個公司有沒有違反法規都有系統了，那我們會就它……"],["邱委員議瑩：它如果換個名字、換個負責人，但實際經營者還是同一批，而且您會不會覺得假如只限制它不得申請租稅優惠3年，其實3年對他來講或許是很短的時間，3年之後它換一個人、換一個負責人的名字、換一個公司的名字又重新再來，您查得到嗎？經濟部查得到嗎？"],["王部長美花：如果就現在的沒有辦法這樣查，除非是在個案裡面有法院的認定或者是有行政機關的認定，才有辦法這樣再去勾稽。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以它還是有可能會去規避掉這些法律的……鑽法律漏洞啦，就是它換個名字，公司名字也換……"],["王部長美花：假設有這樣鑽的話，對！"],["邱委員議瑩：換一個負責人的名字，但是實際經營者還是同一批人，比如我們看蘇丹紅這個很清楚嘛，其實公司設立都在同一個地方，但是它有10間不同的公司名字，整個經營者大概都是他們同一批人、都是家族裡面的人。我也知道除非都在同一個地址很好查，如果它都是在不同的地址的話，基本上你們是很難去稽查的！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：但是對於這樣子造成重大食安議題的租稅減免是不是只有3年？有沒有可能再延長？就是免除它不能有租稅優惠的時限是不是能夠再延長到5年？"],["王部長美花：第一個，像蘇丹紅這個案子，因為發現有這個現象，所以目前我們經濟部商業署把資料整理出來之後給衛福部，衛福部如果做了處分，那就變成這一批所有的公司都會被處分，那就可以知道、有這個紀錄了。","那3年是現在相關的法規都是定一樣的3年。"],["邱委員議瑩：都是定3年？"],["王部長美花：對。"],["邱委員議瑩：主席，可不可以再給我1分鐘？我想要請教一下，如果部長來不及回答也沒有關係，是不是可以給我一些書面的紀錄？有關我們台美21世紀貿易倡議的進度，其中有一個中小企業的專章，而我們今天談到中小企業的發展條例，其實我很想知道對於這個東西，經濟部的中小企業署如何輔導我們的中小企業能夠符合所謂的中小企業專章？有沒有辦法協助他們做提升？請您簡要回答，如果來不及的話，可不可以給我一些比較詳細的說明？"],["王部長美花：是，在這個專章下面，至少經濟部的部分已經成立一個委員會，這個委員會我們也邀請這些中小企業的領袖一起來參加，而未來怎麼樣跟美國這邊的中小企業對接，然後尋找更多的商機，這是滿有意義的事情。"],["邱委員議瑩：所以你們已經在持續進行當中？"],["王部長美花：我們有成立了，現在跟美國都有很多不同產業的合作，關於這些合作，我們這邊也會讓這些相關的中小企業來參與相關的產業合作。"],["邱委員議瑩：可以說明的部分是不是也給本席一個書面？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員議瑩：好不好？謝謝。"],["王部長美花：好。"],["主席：接下來請郭國文委員做提案說明。"],["郭委員國文：感謝主席，經濟委員會各位委員、還有在場的王美花部長。本席針對中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二提出修正草案的看法是，原來的條文其實有如僵屍條文，重看且不能用！我們就一直期待經濟部提出的這一個條款內容是不是有更精進之處，但是就經濟部所提的：現在院版的修正案當中可以通過4,000個工作機會、帶動207家企業加薪、5,850名員工受惠。老實說，如果動用這麼大的修法成本、耗費這麼多的行政作業跟流程而達到這樣的效果，實在非常、非常划不來！而且與整體的163萬家的中小企業、913萬勞工相比，這個數字真的是微乎其微啦，所以我真的覺得目前院版的版本實在過於保守！基本上我們對這個加薪抵稅的條款賦予相當高的期待，我真的覺得應該要好好放寬，因此本席提出一個相關的修正案。","特別是最近我們整個GDP的占比在薪資部分是逐年下滑，它不像其他國家是逐年攀升，對照其他的國家來說，不論是美國也好、日本也好、韓國也好均超過52%，而我們呢？44%不到；另外在企業盈餘的部分，別的國家是逐年降低，而我們卻是逐年攀升！也就是說，GDP這個經濟成果的共享顯然非常的不均衡、也不公平，方向上也跟其他國家不一致。","因此我跟院版有一個主要條文的變化跟差異，第一個，取消經濟景氣指數要件，也就是取消失業率的門檻，將獎勵常態化。第二個，也把年齡的門檻做區隔，首先只要增聘本國員工，減除的比例就應該提升為150%；但如果是特定對象的部分，也就是24歲以下或45歲以上，目前經濟部、院版的條款當中規範這一個特定年齡的對象，減除的比例更應該提高到200%。在這樣的情況底下，我相信會相對有誘因，我覺得經濟部不用替財政部考量太多，還擔心那個稅損的問題，而且最近我們稅收還算不錯，所以我認為應該用比較大膽的方式來進行加薪抵稅的修正，才能真正達到政策的目標。以上，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來繼續詢答，請謝衣鳯委員詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":510,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-10","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","賴士葆","邱議瑩","張智倫","郭國文","陳亭妃","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","邱志偉","鍾佳濱","賴瑞隆","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","張嘉郡","黃國昌","陳超明","牛煦庭","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":419,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員柯志恩等\n17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬\n具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中\n小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業\n發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例\n部分條文修正草案」案；七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正\n草案」案；八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及\n第四十條條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、\n第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展\n條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例\n部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133801_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.14034375,"end":6.527843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.334093750000001,"end":4.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.075968750000001,"end":11.961593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.953468750000003,"end":10.375343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.03346875,"end":11.640968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.552218750000002,"end":17.61471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.20534375,"end":18.559718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.79159375,"end":20.60159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.98971875,"end":22.44096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.94284375,"end":24.53346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.617843750000002,"end":25.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.48659375,"end":29.579093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.64659375,"end":33.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.392843750000004,"end":36.00846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.29534375,"end":57.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.60846875,"end":88.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.40534375,"end":101.55096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.98971875000001,"end":110.49471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.65909375000001,"end":115.97909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.48534375000001,"end":140.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.91596875000002,"end":155.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":154.13346875000002,"end":156.42846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.50034375,"end":156.41159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.00221875,"end":157.03596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.03596875000002,"end":159.09471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.10346875000002,"end":159.07784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.09471875,"end":170.43471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.43471875,"end":188.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":186.29721875,"end":192.16971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.62159375000002,"end":190.04346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.32159375,"end":192.40596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.69284375,"end":209.95596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.94471875000002,"end":201.13034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":210.81659375,"end":217.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":217.80284375000002,"end":222.67971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.93284375000002,"end":228.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.45596875,"end":223.57409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":228.78846875000002,"end":231.58971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":231.97784375,"end":247.97534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.63534375,"end":236.97284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":248.73471875,"end":256.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.53096875,"end":258.43784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.57284375,"end":260.12534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.12534375,"end":260.14221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.36159375,"end":260.37846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":260.37846875,"end":262.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.03221875,"end":262.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.75784375,"end":293.77409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":293.45346875,"end":306.68346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.93346875000003,"end":300.01784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.23284375000003,"end":303.78096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":304.60784375000003,"end":306.31221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.12221875,"end":307.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":307.89846875,"end":308.50596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":308.60721875,"end":331.15221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":331.67534375,"end":332.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":332.95784375,"end":339.20159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.55596875000003,"end":351.68909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":352.38096875,"end":353.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":353.96721875000003,"end":359.02971875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.02971875000003,"end":374.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":374.97659375,"en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bicyn 其實臺灣現在65歲的勞動參與率只有9.62%,就是您講的。"},{"start":200.811,"end":210.469,"text":""},{"start":210.828,"end":232.005,"text":""},{"start":232.005,"end":247.743,"text":" bicyn 迴聘這些比較這個才叫所謂的中高齡讓他們來發揮他們的專長在中小企業上面提供一些他們的這個經驗分享甚至來導入更多的這一些經營的觀念做法"},{"start":248.869,"end":255.692,"text":"是不是有可能讓我們在創造這些中高齡在就業的這個參與勞動參與率能夠讓它上升?我不曉得這個你們行政院就是說經濟部或者是有沒有做過這樣的相關的討論?兩個問題吼那第一個就是現在的勞基法讓65歲以上可以繼續工作這個目前台灣的機制有了吼那這個法律的修改是"},{"start":275.822,"end":298.219,"text":" bicyn 針對65歲以上就像委員講讓他再回聘的話給他加成減除這是第一個那第二個呢事實上在勞動部那一邊有非常多的機制針對這個中高齡或者高齡就業的這個部分有非常多的補助的機制所以您覺得不適合放在我們今天的這個提案裡頭去做65歲以上的這樣對65歲以上那個勞動部就回到勞動部的那個勞動基準法裡頭的這個相關補助"},{"start":305.745,"end":305.885,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":333.01,"end":346.223,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會第11條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案：立法院議員賴士葆等19人擬"},{"start":352.769,"end":360.616,"text":"請問你們要怎麼查?你們會怎麼查?那如何認定它叫做情節重大?是經濟部自己來認定呢?還是會同其他的部會來認定?我們會請相關的單位來幫我們認定。那目前政府的這個秩序系統就這個公司有沒有違反法規都有系統了。"},{"start":371.826,"end":397.937,"text":"那如果換個名字換個名字換個負責人但實際經營者還是同一批而且您會不會覺得假如我只限制他三年的租稅優惠不得申請租稅優惠三年他其實三年來對他來講或許很短的時間三年之後他換一個人換一個負責人的名字換一個公司的名字又重新再來您查得到嗎經濟部查得到嗎"},{"start":398.377,"end":417.127,"text":" bicyn 如果就現在的沒有辦法這樣查那除非是在個案裡面有法院的認定或者是有行政機關的認定才有辦法這樣再去勾結所以他還是有可能會去規避掉這些法律的鑽這個所謂的法律漏洞就是他換個名字"},{"start":417.807,"end":439.821,"text":""},{"start":439.821,"end":458.951,"text":"議員審議"},{"start":459.249,"end":459.989,"text":"三年是現在相關的法規都是定一樣的三年。"},{"start":488.618,"end":509.064,"text":"主席可不可以再給我一分鐘,我想要請教一下,如果部長你來不及回答也沒有關係,是不是可以給我一些書面的記錄,就是我們這個臺美21世紀的貿易倡議進度,其中它裡面有一個中小企業的專章,那我們今天在談到中小企業的發展條例,其實我比較很想知道就是說對於這個東西經濟部的中小企業署,"},{"start":511.125,"end":526.77,"text":"如何來輔導我們的中小企業能夠符合所謂的中小企業專章?有沒有辦法來協助他們做提升?是不是請您簡要回答?那如果來不及的話可不可以給我一些比較詳細的說明?那這個部分我們在這個專章下面我們已經兩邊至少經濟部的部分已經成立一個委員會那這個委員會我們也邀請這個中小企業的這些領袖一直來參加"},{"start":537.614,"end":538.575,"text":"閱讀《中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案》案。"}]}},{"id":"152006","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152006","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db13e231e3d3c9e417c0cbbe991ada1931c55be169921a0a7170be9ff9e72e124835ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"09:28:20 - 09:42:31","影片長度":"00:14:11","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答)【4月29日及5月2日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":851,"end_time":"2024-05-02T09:42:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:28:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":115,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（9時28分）主席，謝謝。麻煩請潘文忠部長。"],["主席：好，請潘部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["洪委員孟楷：好。部長，在討論今天的專案報告之前，本席先請教，你們4月30號的時候有公布國小及國中學生獎懲準則，這個是有上簽到您這邊？"],["潘部長文忠：有，這是一個正式的國教法授權子法的發布。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，很多人就看到裡面有一些狀況，是不是修法過度傾向於學權，沒有考慮教師的教學專業？其中裡面有特別提到，要求學生違反服裝儀容規定，只能正向管教、口頭糾正，不得懲處，很多人就講說是不是變相地要廢除制服？以前2016年民進黨政府上任之後，就已經有提出變相廢止制服，但那還僅限於高中，現在連國小、國中都要來做這樣的事情。"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告……"],["洪委員孟楷：我先請教。"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["洪委員孟楷：如果違反服裝儀容的學生，他就是不穿制服，怎麼辦？老師要怎麼做？老師的現場教學專業沒有辦法管教，那要怎麼做？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，這可能誤解了，我們在109年公布有關……"],["洪委員孟楷：如果說誤解的話，那是外界大家都誤解了，因為你們裡面寫的就是這樣。"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，教育部有正式地澄清，這個不是這一次修的準則，是在109年，當時外界也很關心服裝儀容，所以當時我們說學校一定要成立服裝儀容委員會，邀請學校的老師、家長、學生代表共同參與，透過這樣的程序去律定我們這個學校服裝儀容的相關規範，就是所謂的公約，其實當時在這個公約裡面也有提到，學生應該遵循這個規範，如果學生有違反，應該給予合比例、適當地的管教。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，你講的這些都是歷史，但是現在就是4月30號針對國小、國中的獎懲準則，你又新增……"],["潘部長文忠：不是，委員，4月30日……"],["洪委員孟楷：又告訴大家如果違反服裝儀容的話，只能正向管教、口頭糾正，那我們就講，其實穿制服最重要的理由是什麼？15歲以下的國小、國中學童穿制服，最主要的意義是：第一，它可以避免比較，減少貧富差距的展現。再來，它有可能展現忠誠、展現榮耀，是一個群體的概念。你沒看到昨天、前天的報導，臺灣的貧富差距在民進黨政府執政的現狀下可以高達66.9倍！"],["潘部長文忠：委員，我想現況……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們現在希望在國小、國中的學童穿制服，不要去比較，未來如果你這樣放寬了，會不會有人高興就穿名牌；有人就沒有辦法每天換好的衣服。"],["潘部長文忠：我剛才跟委員報告一個關鍵，這個學校的服裝儀容是由這個學校的服裝儀容委員會決定，這個決定包含家長，如果我們再做一個全國一致性的規範，大概不合時宜。委員一定知道，之前天冷，有學生加一件不是學校的外套，學生就被學校處分……"],["洪委員孟楷：我只是想要來……"],["潘部長文忠：這個不合理吧！"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，我只是想要請教……"],["潘部長文忠：只是為了保暖耶！老師穿得緊緊的，學生加了一件外套就被處罰。"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席在問你A，你不要答B。"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，我跟委員……"],["洪委員孟楷：我現在只想問的是，我現在只想確認的是……"],["潘部長文忠：沒有廢止服裝。"],["洪委員孟楷：我們有沒有要廢止制服？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，沒有，很好！部長，雖然你只剩不到20天就要離開，但你的宣示就代表教育部的一個態度。"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有廢止制服，可是……"],["潘部長文忠：但是每個學校的規定，我們要尊重，好不好？跟委員報告。每個學校經過服裝儀容委員會討論出來，這個學校要2天穿制服，要3天穿便服……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，本席今天心平氣和地來這邊跟你就教……"],["潘部長文忠：沒有啦！因為外界誤解，委員那麼清楚，應該不會誤解，我跟委員報告的是這個。"],["洪委員孟楷：就是因為你們提出來之後讓外界誤解，是誰造成的？不要本末倒置嘛。"],["潘部長文忠：沒有本末倒置。"],["洪委員孟楷：你本來就本末倒置，如果外界沒有誤解的話，不會每一次在你們提出來的時候外界都有那麼多疑慮，今天本席利用國會質詢的時間，幫你問清楚，我代表的是所有的家長，我代表的是關心這個議題的家長、學生以及學校教職人員，每一次都是你們沒有先溝通，沒有讓第一線的教職人員知道，這是大家的反映！今天不是在比大小聲，今天要的是講清楚，不要每一次遇到什麼事情時都在一直辯解，如果你有時間在這裡花時間辯解的話，為什麼之前公布的時候不先說明清楚，先溝通清楚？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個本來就說明過。"],["洪委員孟楷：這是誰的問題？這是誰的問題？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，今天只因為一個團體說了一件事情，不代表沒有溝通吧？"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，確認就好，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：是，OK。"],["洪委員孟楷：再講一次，教育部有沒有要廢除制服？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，謝謝。來，部長，我們進入到今天比較實質的問題，有幾個部分，偏鄉地區教育發展條例現在也已經推出6年了，可是之前有講過，去年其實國教署就已經有提出五項的修法期許，也希望113學年度可以執行，目前進度為何？"],["潘部長文忠：五項？應該是一個面向，不是修法的五個面向。"],["洪委員孟楷：修法的期許，也要提出改善的措施，希望能夠改善，而且本來講3年檢討1次，但是因為疫情沒有檢討，對不對？之前推出6年，3年檢討1次，但沒有檢討。現在偏鄉跟少子化的問題越來越嚴重，所以我們在想，現在偏鄉教育資源的問題是不是更加嚴重了？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，現在是進入第二期的檢討階段，第一期有檢討，包含分級跟認定標準，因為大家反映了，所以從原來的9項變成15項的評估指標，學校也有列增，這是第一期主要檢討的……"],["洪委員孟楷：來，你們有沒有看到媒體報導，有八成的偏鄉教師認為行政工作影響到教學？目前的行政負擔，讓偏鄉教師想要離職，這是不是也是偏鄉老師一直招不到人的主要原因？"],["潘部長文忠：委員所提的部分也是這一次在報告裡面談的一個很重要的核心，原因就是因為人力不多，但是……"],["洪委員孟楷：那你們有沒有提出什麼具體的解套方式來協助？"],["潘部長文忠：現在就是比較希望，因為每個學校雖然小，但是要做的事情都幾乎類似，我們也覺得從教育部之前推班班有冷氣、生生用平板，其實都用整體，就是一組去服務其他的學校，不用每個學校都做同樣的採購、設計，這個其實對學校來講負擔非常的重，教育部認為這個模式後續應該跟縣市政府，對於區域應該有資源的中心，我們來增加人力給……"],["洪委員孟楷：所以區域資源為中心，那會以多大的區域為概念？本席特別看了一下偏鄉的設置，本席的選區裡面就有兩、三個偏鄉學校，包括石門、八里，如果你要以區域為概念，來減輕行政負擔的話，是以縣市還是以什麼樣的區域劃分？"],["潘部長文忠：應該不會大到縣啦！太大了……"],["洪委員孟楷：是，那要怎麼劃分？"],["潘部長文忠：以新北來講，我初步的構想，因為這個當然一定要跟縣市討論一下，我覺得如果以新北為例，一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：以立委選區劃分、縣市議員選區劃分，還是以學區劃分？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，我們這一次有幾個不同的模式，不好意思，我都覺得成功的經驗應該往下擴展，像平板的採購，它就更大區域；但是像中央廚房的部分，它就小區域，現在做共餐就是這樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：對，所以本席現在在問的是，你們現在方向是要大區域分、小區域分，還是幾個學校劃一區？"],["潘部長文忠：我覺得應該是比較用行政區的概念，比如說新北有29個……"],["洪委員孟楷：29個行政區。"],["潘部長文忠：29個我們教育系統的區域啦！因為像板橋就一區而已，板土區啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：但板橋沒有偏鄉學校啊！"],["潘部長文忠：你那個大概涵蓋4、5個鄉鎮喔！"],["洪委員孟楷：是，板橋沒有偏鄉學校嘛！板橋都是都會區。"],["潘部長文忠：不是，我是舉例，我是跟委員舉例它這樣的概念……"],["洪委員孟楷：部長，是不是到現在還沒有一個點，所以說你現在只能一直在鬼打牆？"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，就是這個方向。"],["洪委員孟楷：那你現在的方向是什麼？我們聽半天，我相信媒體朋友或是我們那麼有邏輯的人也聽不懂，我現在只請教你說你們現在會以怎麼樣去……我認同，我認同這個方向，就是偏鄉學校不要一校去辦這種庶務性的業務，而是可能幾個學校一起辦一次庶務性業務，然後給各幾個學校，我現在在問的是，你會幾個學校一起做？就拿我們石門北海岸為例，是北海岸劃一區，金山、萬里、石門、三芝納進來，4個鄉鎮就可以有1個主要來辦，然後4個鄉鎮來含括、來使用，還是說要怎麼分？因為這很直接啊！你們訂出來之後才能幫忙我們偏鄉的行政……"],["潘部長文忠：沒有，不是啦！委員，就是這個概念，但是不是由教育部決定。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，什麼時候會出來？"],["潘部長文忠：現在就在整理這個，跟縣市做討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候會出來？"],["潘部長文忠：520之前可能沒辦法啦！因為這個真的要跟他們討論一下。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒關係，因為你既然也已經拖了8年了，我也不求520之前出來啦！"],["潘部長文忠：沒有、沒有，委員，這是這一次座談裡面，大家提出的一個很重要的建議。"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候會出來？"],["潘部長文忠：7月30日。"],["洪委員孟楷：7月30日？"],["潘部長文忠：就是新學年度開始前嘛！"],["洪委員孟楷：非常好，就是在下個學年度，等於是113年學年度開始的時候會出來，就偏鄉的這個行政。","再來，有一個叫做久任獎金，今天第6頁也特別提到，本席看了一下，我也很鼓勵，我覺得重賞之下有勇夫，不然這些偏鄉學校的老師，他很有熱忱，然後他去，那也很辛苦。結果我看了一下，服務8年才發第一次久任獎金，並且在114年，等於2025年，兩年後才要發，哇！等了8年，終於可以拿到一筆久任獎金，我覺得這是榮譽啊！我很好奇，到底久任獎金有多少錢？結果服務在偏鄉滿8年，久任獎金兩年後第一次發放，一個人多少錢？"],["潘部長文忠：那個有分3個類型……"],["洪委員孟楷：對，一個人多少錢？"],["潘部長文忠：數字的部分，我再請署長跟您報告，3個數字不一樣。"],["洪委員孟楷：7萬塊！在偏鄉服務了8年，久任獎金7萬塊，而且要等2025年，還要兩年後才能拿到，所以讓外界覺得久任獎金原來不是久任獎金，是久等獎金啦！苦讀十年，人家是偏鄉服務8年，7萬塊，平均一個月800塊不到，你覺得這有沒有檢討的必要？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這部分我想因為還沒開始發，我想發之前我們再做個討論……"],["洪委員孟楷：就是還沒有開始發，因為很多偏鄉的老師就跟我們講，到底教育部是在……比較不好意思啦！老師給我的原文是說：「教育部是在乞捨我們還是在打發我們？」"],["潘部長文忠：委員，沒有這個意思啦！"],["洪委員孟楷：說久任獎金要服務滿8年，結果給我7萬塊，而且7萬塊不是現在拿，是2025年，等到第一批服務了8年才能拿，能不能有變通的作法？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個時程……"],["洪委員孟楷：我提一下，譬如說像有一些企業，我也知道現在發這個獎金的意義是希望他可以服務滿8年嘛！那有些企業是譬如說假設他年終抽獎摸到股票，可以領股票，但是兩年內不得離職，就是有這樣子，可是你可以先拿。一樣道理，如果現在已經有偏鄉的老師，確實他已經有服務的熱忱，他也覺得已經被你們綁定了，那久任獎金能不能先發予？但是如果真的服務不到8年期滿的時候，必須要追繳回一定比例。而且我說實在的，不是70萬、不是700萬，是7萬塊，一個月平均不到800塊。部長，能不能檢討？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個發放的方式跟額度，我想因為當時公布實施是第一次，確實可以在這樣的過程當中，我們再做一個滾動的檢討。"],["洪委員孟楷：但是要等這一次兩年後2025發放了，然後您也已經閒雲野鶴了兩年，到時候說不定是你要幫他們在民間來發聲。"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，我想照顧偏鄉老師的面向，久任獎金是一個……"],["洪委員孟楷：我們都希望能夠照顧偏鄉老師。"],["潘部長文忠：大量的修繕宿舍也是重點。"],["洪委員孟楷：召委已經站起來，但是本席很嚴正的告訴部長，你剛剛真的浪費我3、4分鐘，我說實在話，我都很希望各位同仁來我辦公室，我們一定都是以禮相待，我也很希望能夠跟大家討論，在這個殿堂上面，我不是要壓過你，你不是要壓過我，我們是要平等的互相來質詢，但是把委員的問題聽清楚，直接明瞭的回答問題，我覺得這比較重要。我沒有比較大，但是重點是我今天準備的所有資料都是有所本，我不會刻意找碴，我跟你也沒有私人恩怨。偏鄉的問題真的很重要，尤其是現在還有「代理救偏鄉」，甚至被很多代理老師都覺得這根本就是已經是一個笑話，這些問題我們持續討論。部長要離開，我祝福，但我更希望我們教育的同仁大家一起努力，我們讓偏鄉能夠得到好的教育品質，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員。"],["主席（葛委員如鈞代）：請柯志恩召委質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","盧縣一","萬美玲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","葉元之","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","吳春城","林倩綺","徐富癸","何欣純","黃仁","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","范雲","邱志偉","黃珊珊","劉建國"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修\n正草案」案、(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」\n案、( 三) 委員馬文君等17 人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1133901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.88596875,"end":11.72534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.809718750000002,"end":12.585968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.960968750000003,"end":28.937843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.106593750000002,"end":36.025343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.025343750000005,"end":47.837843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.259718750000005,"end":58.806593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.19471875000001,"end":63.565343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.00409375000001,"end":84.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.24346875,"end":71.90159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.06409375000001,"end":90.21096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.62034375,"end":93.80534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.91534375,"end":130.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.13846875,"end":95.25659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.47721875,"end":114.83159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.03596875,"end":158.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.54221875000002,"end":132.39846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.60534375,"end":180.96471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":167.41409375,"end":168.30846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":180.96471875,"end":205.99034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.26596875,"end":199.20659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":199.61159375000003,"end":200.53971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.77596875,"end":201.19784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":203.00346875000002,"end":203.99909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.99034375000002,"end":226.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.02409375000002,"end":206.41221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":206.74971875,"end":207.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":209.02784375000002,"end":210.07409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.28909375,"end":214.73159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":226.12221875,"end":229.56471875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":230.66159375,"end":232.29846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":232.70346875,"end":236.78721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.38221875000002,"end":240.58409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.48721875,"end":243.63846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.63846875000002,"end":248.07659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.67221875,"end":245.07284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":248.63346875000002,"end":269.45721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.57534375,"end":273.86159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.94596875,"end":275.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.54471875,"end":280.27409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":280.61159375,"end":305.41784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":290.71971875,"end":291.25971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.31409375000004,"end":297.75659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":300.69284375,"end":301.08096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":306.05909375000005,"end":314.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.98159375,"end":327.10221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":327.84471875,"end":328.80659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":329.09346875,"end":329.12721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.12721875,"end":331.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.03409375,"end":354.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":356.14409375,"end":363.31596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":363.87284375,"end":372.07409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":372.07409375000003,"end":380.25846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":380.35971875,"end":388.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":388.78034375000004,"end":396.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":393.03284375000004,"end":393.50534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.42909375000005,"end":398.83784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.84659375,"end":427.71096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":425.11221875,"end":451.53846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":450.20534375000005,"end":454.87971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":452.80409375000005,"end":455.03159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":455.03159375,"end":483.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":462.10221875,"end":467.09721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":470.13471875000005,"end":470.59034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":483.97221875,"end":489.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.03909375,"end":488.61284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":489.49034375,"end":506.02784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":489.84471875,"end":490.24971875000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":497.79284375000003,"end":498.24846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49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那麼應該給予合比例適當的這方面的管教部長你講的都是歷史 但是現在就4月30號說你針對國小國中的獎懲準則你又新增 又告訴大家是說如果違反服裝儀容的話只能正向管教口頭糾正那我們就講是說其實穿制服最重要的理由是什麼"},{"start":142.897,"end":158.097,"text":"國小國中在這個15歲以下的學童穿制服最主要意義是我們不希望他第一他可以避免比較減少貧富差距的展現再來他有可能展現忠誠展現榮耀一個群體的概念嘛"},{"start":158.678,"end":182.097,"text":"那現在昨天前天沒有看到說現在連貧富在台灣的現狀下民進黨政府執政之下貧富差距可以高達66.9%欸66.9%我想現況那我們現在希望是說在國小國中的學童他穿制服不要去比較那未來如果說你這樣放寬了會不會有人我高興穿名牌那有人我就沒有辦法每天換好衣服我剛才跟我們報告一個很關鍵"},{"start":183.398,"end":200.979,"text":"這個學校的服裝衣容是由這個學校的服裝衣容委員會決定這個決定包含家長如果全國我們再做一個一致性的規範大概不合時宜啦那我已經知道齁之前天能啊學生加一個不是學校的外套就被學校學生處分了這個不合理嘛"},{"start":203.021,"end":229.215,"text":"只是為了保暖欸老師穿得緊緊的學生壓力鍵外套被處罰本席在問你A你不要答B我現在只想問的是我現在只想要確認的是我們有沒有要廢紙制服沒有沒有很好部長雖然你只剩不到20天就要離開喔但你的宣示就代表是教育部的一個態度是沒有廢紙制服但是每個學校的規定我們要尊重好不好跟委員報告"},{"start":230.694,"end":247.252,"text":"每個學校因為他經過服裝委員會討論出來這個學校要兩天穿制服要三天穿便服部長本席今天心平氣和來這邊跟你就教因為外界誤解委員那麼清楚應該不會誤解就是因為你們提出來之後讓外界誤解"},{"start":248.763,"end":274.67,"text":"是誰造成的?不要本末倒置嘛!沒有本末倒置啦!你本來就本末倒置,如果說沒有外界誤解的話,不會每一次你們再提出來的時候都有外界那麼多疑慮今天本席利用國會職權時間幫你問清楚我代表的是所有家長,我代表的是關心這個議題的家長、學生以及學校教職人員每一次都是你們沒有先溝通,沒有讓第一線教職人員知道大家的反應"},{"start":276.544,"end":304.721,"text":"今天不是在比大小聲今天要的是講清楚不要每一次遇到什麼事情的時候都在一直辯解如果說你有時間在花這些時間在辯解的話那為什麼不之前公佈的時候先說明清楚先溝通清楚委員這個本來就說明過這誰的問題這誰的問題委員那個因為今天一個團體說一件事情不代表這個沒有溝通吧委員部長確認就好好不好是是OK再講一次教育部有沒有要廢除製品沒有好謝謝"},{"start":306.304,"end":326.692,"text":"來部長我們進入到今天比較實質的問題幾個部分偏鄉地區教育發展條例現在也已經推出了6年那可是呢之前有講過去年啊其實就國教署就已經有提出5項的一個修法期許也希望說113年學年可以執行那目前進度為何"},{"start":327.915,"end":354.353,"text":"五項,那應該是一個面向啦,不是修法的五個面向。修法的期許,也要提出改善的措施,希望是說能夠改善。那而且本來想是說三年檢討一次,但是因為疫情所以沒有檢討嘛。對不對,之前推出六年,但是三年檢討一次,那沒有檢討。那現在偏鄉跟少子化問題越來越嚴重,所以我們想是說現在偏鄉教育的資源是不是更加嚴重了?"},{"start":356.192,"end":379.701,"text":"委員那個現在是進入第二期的檢討階段第一期有檢討所以包含那個分級跟認定標準有從原來的9項因為大家反映了所以變成15項的評估指標學校也有列爭這是第一期主要的檢討的來我們有沒有看到說有媒體也報導有八成的偏鄉教師認為行政工作影響到教學"},{"start":380.521,"end":396.421,"text":"那目前行政負擔讓偏鄉教師想要離職這是不是也是主要偏鄉的老師一直找不到人的主要原因委員所提的這也是這一次在報告裡面談的一個很重要的核心原因就是因為人力不多那我們有沒有提出什麼樣的"},{"start":396.701,"end":405.427,"text":"教育部立法院第11屆第1會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第3會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第4會期"},{"start":425.782,"end":428.305,"text":"區域資源為中心,以多大的區域為概念?本席選區有2、3個偏鄉學校包括石門、巴黎"},{"start":444.421,"end":462.492,"text":"如果說你要以區域為概念來減輕這個行政負擔的話,是以縣市還是以什麼樣的一個區域劃分?應該不會大到縣啦,那太大了,以我們新北來講,應該我如果有我初步的構想,因為這個當然一定要跟縣市討論一下,我覺得像如果以新北為例,以地為選區劃分,"},{"start":464.013,"end":486.423,"text":"教育部立法院第11屆第11屆議員選區劃分還是以學區劃分我們這一次有幾個不同的模式不好意思我都覺得成功的今天應該往下擴展像那個平板的採購它就更大區域但是像那個中央廚房的部分它就小區域現在做共產就是這樣所以本席現在在問的是那你們現在方向"},{"start":487.443,"end":500.251,"text":"大區域分小區域分還是幾個學校花一區?委員我覺得應該是比較用行政區的概念幾個比如說新北有29個行政區我們教育系統的區域因為板橋就一區而已板土區那你那個大概涵蓋4、5個鄉鎮"},{"start":510.057,"end":526.909,"text":"是,板橋沒有偏鄉學校嘛不是,我是舉例啦我是跟委員舉例說他這樣的概念部長是不是到現在還沒有一個點所以說你現在只能一直在背大牆不會不會那你現在方向是什麼我們聽到半天我相信媒體朋友或是說我們那麼有邏輯的人也聽不懂"},{"start":527.91,"end":546.413,"text":"我現在只請教你說那你們現在會以怎麼樣去我認同我認同這個方向就是說偏鄉學校不要一校去辦一樣的這種數目性的業務而是說你可能幾個學校一起辦一次數目性業務給各幾個學校那我現在在問的是你會幾個學校一起做"},{"start":548.688,"end":572.496,"text":"北海岸化一區金山萬里石門三芝納進來四個鄉鎮就可以有一個主要來辦然後四個鄉鎮來含瓜來使用還是說要怎麼分因為這很直接啊你們訂出來之後才能夠來幫忙我們偏鄉的行政但是不是由教育部去決定什麼時候會出來現在就在整理這個跟縣市做討論那什麼時候會出來"},{"start":574.717,"end":585.418,"text":"我請說五二零之前可能沒辦法啦因為這個真的要跟他們討論一下沒關係因為你既然也已經拖了八年了我也不是五二零之前出來啦這是這一次座談裡面大家提出一個很重要的建議什麼時候會出來"},{"start":588.424,"end":615.921,"text":"七月三十就是新學年度開始前嗎?非常好就是在下個學年度等於是113年學年度開始的時候會出來就偏鄉的這個行政那再來有一個叫做九任獎金今年第六頁也特別提到本席看了一下我也很鼓勵啊我覺得重賞之下有勇夫不然的話這些偏鄉的學校的老師他很有熱忱然後他去那也很辛苦那結果我看了一下"},{"start":616.901,"end":640.764,"text":"九任獎金服務八年才發第一次九任獎金並且在一一四年等於二零二五年兩年後才要發任哇等了八年終於可以拿到一筆九任獎金我覺得這是榮譽啊那我很好奇說到底九任獎金有多少錢結果我服務在偏鄉滿八年九任獎金第一次發放兩年後發放多少錢一個人"},{"start":646.412,"end":663.043,"text":"三個數字不一樣七萬塊九任獎金服務了八年在偏鄉七萬塊而且要等2025年還要兩年後才能拿到所以讓外界覺得說九任獎金絕對不是九任獎金九等獎金"},{"start":664.161,"end":669.042,"text":"教育及文化委員會第10次全期教育及文化委員會第8條條文修正草案案案案案。"},{"start":691.57,"end":705.27,"text":"教育部是在歧捨我們還是是在打發我們?所以要9任獎金要服務滿8年結果給我7萬塊而且7萬塊不是現在拿是2025年等到第一批服務了8年才能拿"},{"start":708.081,"end":726.9,"text":"能不能有變通的做法?」委員這個時長我提一下譬如說像有一些企業我也知道就是說我現在發這獎金的意義是希望是說你可以服務滿八年嘛那有一些企業是譬如說假設他年終抽獎摸到股票他可能你可以領股票但是兩年內你不得離職"},{"start":727.961,"end":729.181,"text":"教育及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案 案。"},{"start":759.008,"end":774.12,"text":"能不能檢討?委員這個發放的方式跟額度啦我想這個因為當時公佈實施是第一次啦這個確實可以在這樣的過程當中我們再做一個滾動的檢討但是要等這一次還是兩年後2025發放"},{"start":775.461,"end":799.783,"text":"教育部立法院第11屆第1會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第3會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第5會期教育部立法院第6會期教育部立法院第7會期教育部立法院第8會期教育部立法院第9會期教育部立法院第10會期教育部立法院第10會期教育部立法院第11會期教育部立法院第11會期教育部立法院第11會期教育部立法院第11會期教育部立法院第11會期教育部立法院第11會期教育部立法院第11會期教育部立法院第11會期教育部立法院第11會期"},{"start":801.158,"end":827.976,"text":"我說實在話我都很希望各位同仁來我辦公室我們一定都是以禮相待我也很希望能夠跟大家討論在這個殿堂上面我不是要壓過你你不是要壓過我我們是要平等的互相來質詢但是把委員的問題聽清楚直接明瞭的回答問題我覺得這比較重要我沒有比較大但是我重點是我今天準備的所有資料都是有所本我不會刻意找茬我跟你也沒有私人恩怨"},{"start":829.554,"end":851.446,"text":"偏鄉的問題真的很重要尤其是現在還有代理就偏鄉甚至被很多代理老師都覺得說這根本就是已經是一個笑話這些問題我們持續討論部長要離開我祝福但我更希望我們教育的同仁大家一起努力我們讓偏鄉能夠得到好的教育品質謝謝好 謝謝委員謝謝黃孟楷委員"}]}},{"id":"152005","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152005","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1a2f78541fcffbb2ed575e50b9cd8685a55be169921a0a717c83aa5707098847e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"09:24:17 - 09:35:48","影片長度":"00:11:31","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員王育敏等19人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【以上議案，如經復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-14"},"duration":691,"end_time":"2024-05-02T09:35:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:24:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":210,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（9時24分）主席、各位委員、各位官員，大家早安。請薛部長。"],["主席：請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：部長早。其實部長即將離開衛福部之後也要回歸基層的醫療，所以您今天的態度非常的重要，許許多多您未來的下屬都在看，因為他們現在是一個生死存亡的保衛戰，為什麼今天醫界、護理界，不管是牙醫界、檢驗科，所有的醫事人員這麼關心我們今天這個法案，其實就是因為大家已經活不下去了，今天我們不是來吵我們覺得收入不夠，是已經活不下去，所以我們今天才會來講這個議題。所以我也很想請問部長，如果你現在不是部長，你卸下部長，您回到一個醫生的身分，你希不希望你的薪水是一點1元嘛！你希不希望？"],["薛部長瑞元：不是，現在也沒有說哪一家的薪水是少於一點1元了，現在每一家都是一點1元不是嗎？"],["陳委員菁徽：在過去8年，醫護人員真的很久沒有走上街頭了，他們為什麼走上街頭？好，現在所有的急診，大家躺在那邊，他會告訴你說，你今天就開Day Surgery，因為我們上面沒有病床，我已經一大堆朋友，他今天被迫開……"],["薛部長瑞元：委員應該知道Day Surgery有它的條件，不是每一個病都可以Day Surgery啊。"],["陳委員菁徽：以前不用的，現在儘量可以Day Surgery解決就解決，不然先去……"],["薛部長瑞元：當然啊，這本來醫療在進步就這樣子啊。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們不用吵架，我們其實今天就是平心靜氣的……"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有錯。"],["陳委員菁徽：一起為我們的同學、我們的同僚，一起來想辦法而已啊，我們今天只是要想辦法。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：來，我們看一下嘛，剛剛有講到說你們一直在改，這個是蔡英文總統8年前醫療服務講的喔，他說「健保給付給各位的點值一直在打折，我們很感謝醫師們為守護國人健康，所付出的犧牲，未來，我們也願意來檢討健保支付標準表」，你剛剛有講「我們一直在改」，好，這8年，點值從0.9，我覺得醫生都已經有斯德哥爾摩症候群了，以前0.9，他們把自己當成吸收的成本啦，沒有人complain，去年變成0.8、0.7，很多基層的診所已經沒有辦法運營下去了，其實他們是很重要照顧我們基層健康的守護站耶，我們問盧縣一委員啊，對不對？是吧？結果呢，不只是醫護人員活不下去，護理的平均薪資每年是70萬，現在很多家長告訴自己的小孩考上護理系千萬不要去，如果你們在過去8年沒有把護理人員的薪資調到年薪100萬，根本就講不過去。所以剛剛陳昭姿委員講得非常好啊，滿意度，從滿意度看得出醫療品質嗎？我們過去每年在爭取參加WHA，今年也要去，WHA的精神是什麼？是促進健康，結果我們每一年所有的指標都節節敗退，韓國超前我們，韓國以前這個GDP花的比我們少，現在超過我們了，所以連健康餘命、癌症存活率、新生兒死亡率都贏我們。沒錯，臺灣本來在30年前推動健保的時候是全球第一名，可是需要改革，這個你也承認吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然是需要改革，但改革不是舉起關刀隨便耍，絕對不是這樣子。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你現在看，賴清德總統去年說的，我們這麼卑微地提出0.95，我們這麼卑微地提出一點1塊錢，賴清德講1.1耶，你有什麼……"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，我可以不可以就這個問題回答？"],["陳委員菁徽：好。"],["薛部長瑞元：我的任期只有到5月19日，所以到現在為止，我能夠掌握的資源沒有辦法讓我去做到這樣子，我必須要把……"],["陳委員菁徽：我跟你說，我把去年所有的競選影片都看完了！"],["薛部長瑞元：那個我知道，但是……"],["陳委員菁徽：其他兩黨的總統候選人提出任何醫療相關的政見，你都很有意見！"],["薛部長瑞元：不是，我手上……"],["陳委員菁徽：但是賴清德總統突然講出每一點點值是1.1塊錢的時候，你一句話都沒有講，你也沒有像今天一樣拿一個書面報告說，如果你要一點1塊錢的話，那我們健保要馬上漲價喔，保費要漲價，違反我們的總額……"],["薛部長瑞元：我跟委員報告，520之後，也許新的內閣、新的部長，他有新的財源，他可以來處理這一塊，這時候大家還可以再來討論，但是我現在只剩十幾天的這一個任期之內，我沒有這個資源，所以我只能就我能夠做到的去回答。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以當你沒有這個資源的時候，你可以批評別的候選人，一點1元、0.95元是做不到？"],["薛部長瑞元：我沒有批評，我是說我做不到。"],["陳委員菁徽：你做不到？"],["薛部長瑞元：我做不到。"],["陳委員菁徽：但是你覺得賴準總統將這個提出來的時候，你覺得做得到嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：520之後的話，自然有新的團隊，他會來處理這一塊的問題，我只能就我職責之內去做這一個回答。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以您的書面報告是不是應該要具體寫出這個是有處理方法，因為聽起來你是覺得做得到，但是你今天書面報告一頁半，其實你是告訴……"],["薛部長瑞元：我書面報告講的是，如果要這樣做，可能那些困難就必須要去排除，我必須要提出這個警告，我現在只能做的就是警告而已啦，老實講。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你現在是警告下一任的人說，你現在……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，你如果真的要去推這個的話，你還是必須要面對那些問題，你還是必須要去思考財源的來源，因為沒有財源的來源，你忽然去做增加支出的話……"],["陳委員菁徽：我昨天去看了PTT、Dcard，很多網友在下面寫說，也許我們把部長、次長的薪水都變成總額支付，看今年分配到幾點，我們也給你點數，這樣說不定這個問題就解決了。也有人講到說……"],["薛部長瑞元：我跟委員報告，如果我考慮到薪資的話，我根本不會來這裡！"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝你，其實我目前看到基層很多人都很有愛心，願意做護理的人真的很有愛心，但是你的愛心沒有辦法撐一輩子，這個世界上有什麼工作……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以制度上必須要去做調整沒有錯，這個是的確要去做改革，但是是否就是這樣一點1元下去的話，那個連改革的空間都沒有。"],["陳委員菁徽：那你覺得你可以做到一點幾元嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個我沒有資源，所以目前為止，我沒有辦法在排除掉總額預算制度之下去做事情，做一個例外的事情。"],["陳委員菁徽：你會不會承認我們的總額預算的成長率太低？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個要看你怎麼樣去算，我們每年的成長都已經到了4%以上，像今年是4.7%了。"],["陳委員菁徽：昨天的書面報告、報紙，你們說的好像我們把它漲到一點1元，每個人就要繳很多，這是你們自己的新聞耶，這是你們自己的新聞耶！它說2024年健保費不會調漲，所以你們總是都會有方法的，只是看你要不要做嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，公務預算如果來源充足的話，那當然就不一定要漲健保費，但是公務預算的編列，它必須在前一年就必須要編，比方說，如果真的照這個法案通過，明年要開始執行的話，今年的公務預算就要編進去要補助多少，但是無從去評估，所以很可能到時候編的是不足的，編的不足的時候，就必須要用到安全準備，用到安全準備的話，那可能就要調保費。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以其實只要你願意做，從各方面都可以改革，你應該要具體的寫在你的書面報告裡面啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有……"],["陳委員菁徽：你從8年前的健康政策，前幾天又……"],["薛部長瑞元：委員並沒有……今天我們沒有請主計總處上來做一個口頭報告。"],["陳委員菁徽：我們等一下會……"],["薛部長瑞元：主計總處他有他的意見，如果主計總處的錢沒有下來的話，或者沒有這個財源的話，對不起，衛福部怎麼樣做都做不到。"],["陳委員菁徽：我覺得你的書面報告非常推卸責任，因為你有一段……"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有推卸責任，這叫做現實，現實的狀況就是這樣。"],["陳委員菁徽：你有一段就在寫說，假使你要幫助我們通過這個一點1元，我們只是要求一個很合理的報酬，很合理，總額是你們規定……"],["薛部長瑞元：這個需要社會的共識啦。"],["陳委員菁徽：總額是你們規定，每年……"],["薛部長瑞元：不是醫界自己講爽的啦。"],["陳委員菁徽：每年我們的醫療需求不會有任何改變，這個大前提是不可能的，因為新藥、新的技術、新的醫療技術就是不斷地在進步，而這些人當然會越活越長，慢性病也會越來越多，所以你的總額的成長率根本不足以應付你預設的全國醫療資源支出是不會有任何改變，你這個大觀念就是錯的！好，你現在說，如果支付我們一點1元，這樣還會排擠到國防，排擠到交通，排擠到教育，排擠到文化，說實在的，那你沒有把我們的醫療品質放在最前面嗎？你剛剛講的所有評比都叫做醫療服務的滿意度，陳昭姿委員講得很好啊，現在大家是覺得看病很方便，可是你看得好嗎？你活的久嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，我跟你講，你如果說一點1元的話，我們一年就要花到一千多億，這時候你在講那些癌症什麼，那些都沒有了啦！"],["陳委員菁徽：所以賴清德總統說要1.1元，你一年要多花多少錢，你有幫他試算嗎？你們在他提出政見的時候，衛福部有開會嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我已經算了，我今天的報告裡面就有，我們已經試算出來了。"],["陳委員菁徽：多少錢？賴清德總統的是多少錢？"],["薛部長瑞元：一點1元的話，那就是一年需要1,150億，那個是量還維持現在。"],["陳委員菁徽：非常多的基層醫療人員支持賴清德總統啦，所以你們還是要想個辦法，定期一定要把點值達到1.1元，這就是他提出來的目標。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，你問一下盧縣一委員，他過去在基層的時候，他的收入怎麼樣，私底下問問看。"],["陳委員菁徽：謝謝你關心盧縣一委員，謝謝部長，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，待會主計處也可以上來說明，看起來是主計處也不支持啦。","我們請林月琴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-14","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","黃秀芳","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","劉建國","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","賴士葆","李彥秀","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","賴惠員","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；二、委員蘇清\n泉等27人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康\n保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.31159375,"end":18.42471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.35284375,"end":20.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.12846875,"end":24.617843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.090343750000002,"end":25.309718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.49534375,"end":26.00159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.91284375,"end":34.10159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":34.135343750000004,"end":42.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":42.43784375,"end":50.20034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.976593750000006,"end":58.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.890968750000006,"end":80.72721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.84534375,"end":81.95909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.63409375,"end":86.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.00034375,"end":89.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.19409375000001,"end":91.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start"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每一家都是1.1元不是嗎?這過去8年齁醫護人員真的很久沒有走上街頭了他們為什麼走上街頭好現在所有的急診喔大家躺在那邊他會告訴你說你今天就開day surgery因為我們上面沒有病床我已經一大堆朋友他今天被開...委員應該知道day surgery的話有他的條件不是每一個病都可以day surgery啊"},{"start":115.299,"end":137.227,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":137.667,"end":159.65,"text":"這個是蔡英文總統八年前醫療服務講的喔他說健保給各位點值一直在打折我們很感謝醫師為守護國人健康所付出的犧牲未來我們也願意來檢討健保支付標準表你剛有講我們一直在改好這八年點值從"},{"start":160.931,"end":174.1,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第15會期社會"},{"start":186.988,"end":209.377,"text":""},{"start":210.098,"end":224.814,"text":"полне度。滿意度。你看得出醫療品質嗎?我們過去每年在爭取參加WHA今年也要去。WHA的精神是什麼?是促進健康。結果我們每一年齁,這個所有的指標結結敗退。"},{"start":227.056,"end":252.056,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":252.728,"end":253.889,"text":"我可以不可以就這個問題回答。好。"},{"start":270.919,"end":279.646,"text":"我的任期只有到5月19。所以到現在為止我能夠掌握的資源沒有辦法讓我去做到這樣子。我必須要改。那個我知道。但是...但是我有..."},{"start":292.096,"end":293.037,"text":"我跟委,我跟委報告"},{"start":310.35,"end":311.87,"text":"我沒有批評,我是說我做不到。"},{"start":339.735,"end":352.961,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":353.387,"end":372.756,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":373.763,"end":387.056,"text":"​​​​​​"},{"start":387.568,"end":412.79,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":413.891,"end":418.416,"text":"我跟委員報告,如果我考慮到薪資的部分的話,我根本不會來這裡。"},{"start":420.662,"end":444.867,"text":"謝謝你其實我目前呢看到基層很多人都很有愛心你願意做護理的人真的很有愛心但是你的愛心沒有辦法撐一輩子這個世界上有什麼工作對所以制度上必須要去做調整沒有錯這個是的確要去做改革但是是否就是這樣一點一元下去的話那個連改革的空間都沒有那你覺得你可以做到一點幾元嗎"},{"start":446.487,"end":469.446,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。案。」議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案。案。」議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案。案。」議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條條文修正草案。案。」議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條條文�"},{"start":471.101,"end":492.483,"text":"​​​​​​"},{"start":492.483,"end":508.558,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":508.558,"end":526.049,"text":"​​​​​​​​"},{"start":527.199,"end":554.573,"text":" bicyn 其實只要你願意做從各方面都可以改革你應該要具體的寫到你的書面報告裡面啊從八年前的健康政策委員並沒有今天我們沒有請主席總書上來做一個口頭報告主席總書他有他的意見主席總書如果錢沒有下來的話或者沒有這個財源的話對不起"},{"start":555.213,"end":581.288,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":581.388,"end":596.775,"text":"adequ大前提是不可能的因為新藥新的技術新的醫療技術就是不斷的在進步而這些人當然會越活越長慢性病也會越來越多所以你的總和的成長率根本不足以應付你這個預設的"},{"start":597.895,"end":625.745,"text":" bicyn 國的醫療資源支出是不會有任何改變你這個大觀念就是錯的好你現在說如果支付我們1.1元我們還會排擠到國防排擠到交通排擠到教育排擠到文化說實在的那你沒有把我們的醫療品質放在最前面嗎你剛講的所有評比都叫做醫療服務的滿意度陳昭之委員講的很好啊現在大家是覺得看病很方便可是你看的好嗎"},{"start":626.305,"end":649.172,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":649.172,"end":665.52,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":666.707,"end":682.057,"text":"厲卿德總統啦所以你們還是要想個辦法定期一定要把點值達到一點議員這是他提出來的目標你問一下盧縣議委員他過去在基層的時候他的收入怎麼樣私底下問問看謝謝你關心盧縣議委員謝謝部長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152004","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152004","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db19dea109c8aed5b0fd5e9ec982727c87755be169921a0a717efa55c43c43e31e75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳永康","委員發言時間":"09:27:08 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employee，不涉及政治工作，就是行政的工作，讓部分駐外同仁的眷屬承擔工作、減輕負擔？我這個建議最主要是我在很多地方參加活動，看到駐外人員全天在外工作，可是他的眷屬晚上還要配合，然後交通自理、不能同步，甚至有些國家駐外使館人員的男女同仁比例不同，在交通上的負荷也不相同。因此我提出的建議是部分駐外使館的辦公室，如果經館長、副館長考核，駐外同仁眷屬的語言能力能夠承擔到某個程度，建議比照local employee的方法，讓他擔負一個館內的工作，也可以減低他的家庭負擔，這是我個人一個粗淺的看法。","至於在國內部分能夠照顧到我們的身心平衡，其實剛剛你已經講了，並不是每一個人都願意表達心理的壓力，因為我們有時候在工作上的挑戰、壓力會變成我們的驅動力，只是希望不要把這個驅動力過度反映到家庭或對其他同仁，我們是持正面看法。至於榮總的醫療協調部分，我站在這邊，因為我們外交及國防委員會本身也跟退輔會有一個很好的溝通管道，對於榮民總醫院，我們過去也有很好的協商機制，在這個領域我們願意來協助部長，請部長就剛才的建言提供一點指導。"],["吳部長釗燮：非常謝謝陳委員，剛剛講的都非常精闢，尤其是駐外的經驗，我也曾經擔任過駐外的代表，雖然時間沒有很長，但是也瞭解、非常體認到駐外人員的辛苦，因此對於如何照顧這些同仁、提高他們的補助，讓他們在國外的生活能夠配合到當地的物價水準等等，我們都有做這方面的努力，也非常謝謝委員的支持。","另外，有關於眷屬是不是能在館長的考核之下當成一個local employee的方式來處理，這由我們來加以檢討看看是不是能夠據以執行，如果能在一個公平或者是經過考核的基礎之上，我相信是有空間的。我們在外館的時候也看到眷屬實際上都要搭配大使館的工作，常常看到我們這些眷屬也非常活躍，有時候在一些比較小的國家擔任駐外人員，其實是全館同仁再加上所有的眷屬都投入到服務的工作，對於同仁以及眷屬的投入，我們都非常感謝，也會來研究委員剛剛所提的提案，看看是不是能夠公平地實行。","另外有關於榮總，非常謝謝委員，其實我們跟榮總之間保持非常好的聯繫，榮總也提供外交部很好的服務，如果有需要陳委員的部分，我們再來跟陳委員拜託，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員永康：謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請王定宇委員上臺質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":104,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-35-17","speakers":["馬文君","羅美玲","陳永康","王定宇","徐巧芯","洪申翰","沈伯洋","陳冠廷","林楚茵","羅智強","黃仁","林憶君"],"page_start":73,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133801_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防委員會第17次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請外交部部長吳釗燮報告「外交部如何構建友善工作環境暨人員心理輔導具體做法」，並備質\n詢","agenda_id":"1133801_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.06471875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":1.3303437500000002,"end":1.7522187500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.9672187500000002,"end":3.60846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.82284375,"end":10.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.185343750000001,"end":12.805343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.974093750000002,"end":48.54659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.002218750000004,"end":69.06659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.35346875,"end":74.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.97284375000001,"end":76.77846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.16659375,"end":97.77096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.88909375,"end":102.85034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":98.20971875000001,"end":98.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.33971875,"end":121.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.18909375000001,"end":123.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":123.35346875,"end":125.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.37846875000001,"end":129.79971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.18784375,"end":137.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.10221875000002,"end":140.83596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.39284375,"end":149.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.74159375000002,"end":153.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.50909375,"end":159.61784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.74846875,"end":169.62471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":169.87784375,"end":171.97034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.34159375000002,"end":182.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.14159375,"end":244.76909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":245.29221875000002,"end":308.80971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":309.43409375000005,"end":353.84909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.82784375,"end":354.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.92909375000005,"end":354.96284375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":354.96284375000005,"end":355.40159375}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.549,"end":3.211,"text":"有請胡副長請部長委員早部長早"},{"start":11.56,"end":11.58,"text":"吳釗燮報告"},{"start":33.55,"end":48.236,"text":"我深切表認同而且感受很深我舉一個例子也就是說我們在任何一個領域以外交部整體而言我們即便是一個小小的成就感其實是累積了無數駐外同仁的挫折感"},{"start":59.503,"end":74.173,"text":"當地僑民工作、子女的教育環境以及他的家庭能不能夠配合所以這個部分我完全能夠感受因此我個人完全認同我們在度外有關房屋租金"},{"start":75.074,"end":75.554,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":103.456,"end":103.756,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":122.056,"end":122.116,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":150.759,"end":150.839,"text":"陳永康議員"},{"start":160.759,"end":160.959,"text":"外交部部長吳釗燮報告"},{"start":184.144,"end":202.527,"text":"這個使館駐外的辦公室如果館長副館長的考核我們駐外同仁他的眷屬他的語言能力能夠承擔到某個程度建議比照local employee的方法讓他能夠擔負一個管內的工作也可以減低他的家庭負擔那麼這是我個人一個粗淺的看法"},{"start":203.267,"end":227.595,"text":"至於就是在國內部分能夠照顧到我們的身心平衡其實剛剛你已經講了並不是代表每一個人願意把他心理的壓力因為我們在工作的挑戰有的時候的壓力會變成我們的驅動力那只是希望不要把他這個驅動力過度表現到對家庭對其他同仁過度的反應上我們是從正面來看法那至於榮總的醫療協調部分我站在這邊"},{"start":230.256,"end":230.456,"text":"國防委員會提供指導"},{"start":245.69,"end":272.598,"text":"非常謝謝陳委員那剛剛講的都非常的精闢那尤其是駐外的這個經驗我也曾經擔任過駐外的那個代表雖然說時間沒有很長但是也瞭解非常體認到我們駐外人員的這個辛苦那也因此對於如何來照顧我們的這些同仁提高他們的這個補助讓他們在國外的這個生活能夠配合到當地的這種物價水準等等的"},{"start":273.498,"end":293.931,"text":"我們都有做這方面的努力也非常謝謝委員的支持另外有關於眷屬是不是能夠在館長的考核之下當成是一個local employee的方式來處理這個由我們來加以檢討看看是不是能夠來具以執行如果說能夠在一個公平"},{"start":294.731,"end":308.467,"text":"或者是說有經過考核的這個基礎之上的話那我相信這個是有空間的那我們在外館的時候也看到就是說那個眷屬實際上也都搭配了那個我們大使館的這些工作"},{"start":309.668,"end":331.261,"text":"常常可以看到我們這些眷屬也非常的活躍有時候在一些比較小的這些國家擔任我們的駐外人員其實是全管的同仁再加上所有的這些眷屬都投入到服務的這些工作我想對於我們同仁以及眷屬的這些投入我們都非常的感謝也會來研究"},{"start":332.862,"end":352.811,"text":"委員所剛剛提的這個提案看是不是能夠公平的來實行那另外有關於榮總非常謝謝委員其實我們跟榮總之間也保持非常好的這種聯繫那榮總也提供我們外交部這邊很好的這些服務那如果說有需要陳委員的這個部分那我們再來跟陳委員拜託謝謝委員謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"152003","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152003","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db123b5c1f759837d800cbbe991ada1931c55be169921a0a7175eb8766a6361d8645ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"萬美玲","委員發言時間":"09:16:14 - 09:28:15","影片長度":"00:12:01","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答)【4月29日及5月2日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":721,"end_time":"2024-05-02T09:28:15+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:16:14+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":53,"blocks":[["萬委員美玲：（9時16分）謝謝召委。我們有請潘文忠部長。"],["主席：好，潘部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員早。"],["萬委員美玲：部長早。現在我很珍惜能夠質詢你的時光。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：大概剩沒有很多次了，對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：我也很珍惜，謝謝委員。"],["萬委員美玲：很珍惜喔！好，我們今天來討論的議題，召委排這個議題也非常重要，那就是關於我們偏遠地區的孩子跟教師的權益。這個面向其實非常多，我們都知道剛才部長報告得沸沸揚揚，非常多，不管是在政策上面或是經費的補助，我們想盡辦法，由中央跟地方的資源，甚至於民間的資源都進去，就是希望讓偏遠地區學校的孩子們能夠受到更好的照顧喔！但是這幾年我們看到不管是我們挹注到偏鄉學校裡面的設備、經費，偏鄉學校3年200萬，這7年來大概也有將近180幾億，這個金額看起來是多的，可是我覺得我們要考慮幾個點，第一個，我們如果只是把錢下去，讓這些設備富麗堂皇，甚至於是非常先進，但其實人是最重要的，所以我們剛剛提到，怎麼樣讓偏鄉的老師能夠繼續留在偏鄉學校服務，怎麼樣讓這些老師們願意到偏鄉服務，又我們應該給他的權益保障是哪些？老師穩定了以後，我們的孩子才能夠穩定下來！我這邊提一下，我們看到現在全國專任教師的缺額都是非常的多。我們先來看全國的部分，全國專任教師的缺額，國小有4,225名，國中有545名，高中高達842名，其中當然偏鄉學校相對的也有一定比例，大概有5%左右的缺額，剛才部長好像還有提到流動率感覺不高，就是二點多，是不是？您剛剛好像有提到一個數字。"],["潘部長文忠：我應該說條例實施前大概二點一多，國中1.9，現在實施了這幾年，大概已經都降到1.2左右。"],["萬委員美玲：好，我覺得這是一個很棒的成績，但是夠不夠？不夠的！因為偏鄉的孩子有剛剛我們所說的很多問題，您剛剛也提到，比如說單親、隔代教養、資源不足、關注度等等各方面，所以我們要給他們的是更多、要更充實，要給好、給滿，我想這個您沒有意見嘛！尤其偏鄉學校有很多都是小校，小校現在有很多甚至於快要面臨廢校了，不管是學校有歷史的價值、有校友們的共同回憶，以及交通上面的需求，我們都希望每一個在地孩子們不要走很遠，或者是需要通車，所以我們應該儘量，不管今天流動率只有1%、2%，或者是缺額率5%，我覺得這些我們都不能夠自滿，還是要讓它達到最好的一個狀態。所以我們看到今天的修法有很多項，我想大概只能跟您做一個討論，到時候逐項的時候再來。也就是說，我們現在看到在師資聘任上面，雖然給了很多相關的權益保障，包括比如說代理教師聘請的方式，或是小校共聘教師的制度等等，還有提供交通費、保險費等等。但是，部長您知道嗎？現在我們除了山地地區加給比較完整跟正常之外，現在東臺地區也有相關加給，尤其是在交通費的部分，目前本席掌握到的資料，每個月大概是630塊的加給，您知道嗎？這個錢連一張臺北到玉里的自強號車票，恐怕都只能買單程。我是希望，部長，做了這麼多，很細緻的地方可能要再詳細地去檢視，該要多給的，我們要把經費加足、加好、加滿。今天的報告可以說有非常多內容在裡面，但是部長，我想要請您自己說，關於偏鄉的學校，不管是對孩子的照顧，包括課後的照顧、相關的輔導、護理師怎麼進用、營養師怎麼進用，以及現在缺額的老師應該怎麼去補足，您覺得還有哪些不足的地方？能不能由您自己來說？"],["潘部長文忠：是，謝謝委員，委員確實很深入瞭解這個問題，偏鄉的人力，人力當然包含老師，還有相關部分的穩定其實是很重要的，我長期在教育界服務，我發現早期經過一個暑假，只剩下校長，其他人都不見了。"],["萬委員美玲：對。"],["潘部長文忠：這個制度從現在回頭檢視，剛才跟委員報告的流動率，你看還有8,500位即將在明年可以支領久任獎金，也就表示他們有將近二分之一達到8年……"],["萬委員美玲：部長能不能提一下，你認為現在還存在的問題點。"],["潘部長文忠：是，我跟委員報告，現在偏鄉的部分，剛剛委員提到一個重點，我覺得家庭這方面的支撐確實對偏鄉的孩子，我認為是一定要再強化的，因為隔代跟單親在偏遠地區的比例相對於一般地區是高，這一方面孩子應該是最重要的，所以當我們沒辦法去改變他的家庭狀況之下，我覺得應該再擴大，像我們說大手攜小手的概念，也就是說孩子在晚上回到家，那種陪伴學習是重要的。"],["萬委員美玲：大手攜小手的計畫，或者是夜光天使等很多計畫，我覺得都很不錯，我想今天在這裡就不逐條來談，只希望剛剛我講的上述這些關於偏鄉地區學生的問題，我們要更細緻、更加強，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["萬委員美玲：再來我今天還要用一點時間特別討論一下最近大家很關心的一個議題，我想也請一下吳林輝司長，好不好？那就是關於特教法的部分，我們這次已預告有要做一些修正，特別是關於分散式資源班的部分，過去我們在分散式資源班的師生比，還有導師費，這兩點我想跟您討論。師生比在資源班的部分，我們過去是沒有去訂定的。"],["潘部長文忠：沒有。"],["萬委員美玲：因為它是一個動態式的，很難去訂，但現在本席看到預告修正之後，我們竟然有辦法在分散式資源班的地方，把幼兒園訂為1比15、國小1比10，然後國中1比8、高中1比15，第一個，這怎麼訂出來的？我們怎麼有辦法訂出來？第二個，既然我們要修正、我們要把它訂出來讓它法制化，為什麼只有國中是1比8，而其他的沒有達到我們之前修法所要達到的目標1比8？為什麼？就是這兩個問題。"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，這個案子我很想深入的跟國教署討論，也希望他們去蒐集第一線的資料跟情況，當時我們委員會有訂出希望給教育部5年，能夠有1比8這樣一個概念。但是我跟委員報告，現在一樣叫做資源班或巡迴班，其實在幼兒園，孩子不是抽出來的，他是直接進到這個班，比如進兩到三個。"],["萬委員美玲：沒錯、沒錯，其實形同是在一個專班裡面的概念。"],["潘部長文忠：對，他是在一般班裡面的方式，國小、國中是對接到課程，就是說他是抽出來的，高中則不是針對課程，而是針對……"],["萬委員美玲：部長您講的這些我們兩個都知道，但現在的問題是為什麼去訂幼兒園是1比15，然後國中跟高中各別是1比10跟1比15？你看，我們去年才在講，現在幼兒園的師生比是1比12，那你還把幼兒園的分散資源班訂到1比15，也就是說，其實照顧特殊的孩子是更辛苦，但我不懂為什麼這個會訂在1比15？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，你這個舉例非常好，為什麼一定要將一般班的幼兒園調成1比12，因為那個負擔真的重，現在資源班……"],["萬委員美玲：分散式資源班的負擔就不重嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：不，就是比如說有兩位或三位幼生在一般班裡面，除了會減少它的班級人數以外，現在資源班的特教老師是進到一般普通班裡面去協助，這個不是抽離式的，國中……"],["萬委員美玲：我理解，但是，部長，既然是以1比8這個數字為一個目標，我們既然要修訂，本席希望我們再仔細考慮一下，1比15這個數字其實是不符合現在老師的負擔，我們希望能夠再縮小一下師生比，這是第一個本席今天要求的。我跟召委再要30秒的時間。第二個，我們過去在導師費的部分其實也沒有規範嘛，對不對？那現在就出現一個狀況了，現在這個導師費，有的縣市給，有的縣市不給。如果我們現在有一些規範，一個班要有兩個導師或三個導師，但我們現在只給一個導師的費用，怎麼會夠？吳林輝司長可以回答一下嗎？還是部長？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，教保費我們把它調到一致了，那導師費……"],["萬委員美玲：導師費你現在給的是不夠的啊！請教一下司長跟署長，他們在後面嘛。"],["吳司長林輝：因為目前的分散式資源班在現行的行政規則裡頭，是每班至多一位可以給導師費。"],["萬委員美玲：至多一位，但我們有的是兩位跟三位導師，剩下那一位或兩位怎麼辦，署長？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這個細節我再瞭解一下，到時候再一起跟委員說明。"],["萬委員美玲：好。"],["潘部長文忠：因為這裡面有好幾項的經費。"],["萬委員美玲：沒有，部長可能您不太清楚，其實署長很清楚，這件事情我在這裡鄭重地提出來，我們既然規範了，不管特教班跟資源班要一個或兩個或三個老師，各種不同的制度，我們應該讓每一個人都要能夠領導師費，而不是三個人或兩個人共享一份導師費。部長如果不太清楚，會後請您去研究一下，再請署長跟司長到我辦公室來說明。"],["潘部長文忠：好。委員，有一個原則，我要跟委員報告的是，同樣叫資源班，學前是入班，國中小是出班，出班才有成班的概念。"],["萬委員美玲：部長，會後您還是去問一下司長跟署長，這個議題非常嚴重，也引起現場老師的反彈，我們希望只要是做一樣的工作，一樣的負擔，每一個人都應該能夠領導師費。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，入班怎麼還會有導師呢？入班是協助者耶！"],["萬委員美玲：因為我的時間不夠，您問一下您背後的司長跟署長。"],["潘部長文忠：可以。"],["萬委員美玲：如果連您都不清楚，我真的替現場第一線的特教老師捏把冷汗啊！"],["潘部長文忠：不會不清楚，委員，這個案子我最少聽5次的專案報告了。"],["萬委員美玲：結果還弄錯！"],["潘部長文忠：我們沒有弄錯，我剛才這麼細緻地跟委員報告，入班去的導師就叫幼兒園那個老師，他只是協助的特教人員。"],["萬委員美玲：我們請司長來說明。"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["萬委員美玲：現在我們的資源班跟特教班，導師是一個還是有一個以上的可能？"],["吳司長林輝：我說明一下，集中式特教班一定有，一班一定是兩個；分散式資源班，在過去的法規裡頭是每班至多一個，這是現況。"],["萬委員美玲：對，現況。"],["吳司長林輝：現在國教署在修訂高級中等以下學校特殊教育班班級及專責單位設置與人員進用辦法。"],["萬委員美玲：怎麼改的，你告訴你的部長。"],["吳司長林輝：它改的是，以後固定一個班一個，以前是至多一個，現在已經把「至多」拿掉了，還是只有一個。"],["萬委員美玲：好，現在的問題就來了，我們現在是有一個，也有兩個，也有三個的狀態，對不對？你要改成只有一個，這還有另外的問題衍生出來，你知道嗎？現在導師的狀況就是三個或兩個，大家做一樣的工作，卻只有一份導師費用，我想署長非常清楚，但今天時間有限，會後我希望你能夠跟我們教育委員會的委員說清楚這個現場教師關心的問題。"],["潘部長文忠：整個資源班的情形，我會請署長親自跟委員報告，因為這個真的花了非常多時間去釐清，這樣也才公平。"],["萬委員美玲：要注重教師的權益，好不好？謝謝！"],["潘部長文忠：有啦！委員，這幾年在學前教保費提升、師生比的部分，委員也有一起參與，也有一起努力啊！這個進步很大，我要跟委員報告。"],["萬委員美玲：好啦，要注重一下老師的權益就好，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：一定、一定，好，謝謝。"],["萬委員美玲：這是我們共同的目標，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝萬委員、謝謝部長。","接下來我們請洪孟楷委員，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","盧縣一","萬美玲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","葉元之","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","吳春城","林倩綺","徐富癸","何欣純","黃仁","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","范雲","邱志偉","黃珊珊","劉建國"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修\n正草案」案、(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」\n案、( 三) 委員馬文君等17 人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1133901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":2.95034375,"end":5.9372187499999995},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.531593750000003,"end":10.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.30784375,"end":16.16346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.04159375,"end":13.615343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.05784375,"end":17.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":17.09159375,"end":17.74971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.74971875,"end":18.07034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.07034375,"end":18.08721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.08721875,"end":18.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":18.20534375,"end":121.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":120.60284375,"end":130.42409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.00721875,"end":125.34471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":126.44159375000001,"end":126.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":130.23846875,"end":265.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.03596875,"end":278.50221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":278.95784375,"end":330.30846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":299.17409375,"end":299.52846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":300.74346875000003,"end":301.45221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":328.35096875000005,"end":402.02721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":402.02721875000003,"end":428.18346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":402.11159375000005,"end":402.87096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":413.70471875000004,"end":414.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.66471875,"end":432.06471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":429.87096875000003,"end":436.67159375000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":432.70596875,"end":433.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":436.97534375000004,"end":441.58221875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":441.58221875000004,"end":470.06721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":442.61159375000005,"end":442.69596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":468.59909375,"end":497.97846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":478.97721875,"end":481.13721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":497.97846875000005,"end":538.5459687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":497.99534375,"end":498.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.04596875000004,"end":498.06284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":498.09659375,"end":498.73784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":502.26471875000004,"end":502.53471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":540.0984687499999,"end":541.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":542.68034375,"end":549.0928437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":543.1697187500001,"end":543.7097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":549.27846875,"end":553.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":553.6997187500001,"end":553.8178437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":553.8178437500001,"end":554.4084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":555.43784375,"end":564.17909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":564.17909375,"end":568.4484687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":571.19909375,"end":577.84784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":576.86909375,"end":602.60346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.2665937500001,"end":598.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.8234687500001,"end":606.8559687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":606.92346875,"end":610.0959687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":609.89346875,"end":624.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":621.0478437500001,"end":624.54096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":624.8784687500001,"end":633.1472187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":630.98721875,"end":643.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":636.43784375,"end":636.8090937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":641.53409375,"end":649.9040937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":649.2122187500001,"end":667.11659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":666.27284375,"end":667.55534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":667.3022187500001,"end":673.56284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":667.55534375,"end":667.6228437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":673.3603437500001,"end":697.0359687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":697.0359687499999,"end":705.20346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":705.35534375,"end":707.76846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":706.75596875,"end":714.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":712.5947187500001,"end":712.6284687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":715.2778437500001,"end":718.5515937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":716.76284375,"end":718.6697187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":718.6697187500001,"end":718.9734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":718.9734687499999,"end":719.2097187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":719.44596875,"end":719.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":719.96909375,"end":720.96471875}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.964,"end":5.906,"text":"謝謝趙偉,我們有請潘文忠部長。好,潘部長。委員早。部長早,現在我很珍惜能夠質詢你的時光了。大概是沒有很多次了,對不對?我也很珍惜,謝謝委員。那我們接下來討論的議題,其實趙偉排的議題也非常的重要,那就是關於我們偏遠地區的孩子跟教室的一個權益。"},{"start":26.937,"end":30.619,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育部列席就擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案案件 及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件 及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件 及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案"},{"start":51.629,"end":54.631,"text":"每一年偏鄉學校三年兩百萬,這七年來也有將近一百八十幾億。這個金額看起來是多的,可是我覺得我們要考慮幾個點。第一個就是說,我們如果只是把錢下去,讓我們這些設備富麗堂皇,甚至於是非常的先進,但是人是最重要的。"},{"start":73.121,"end":99.852,"text":"所以我們剛剛提到怎麼樣來留住我們偏鄉老師能夠繼續留在偏鄉學校服務怎麼樣讓我們這些老師們願意到偏鄉服務又我們應該給他這個權益的保障是哪一些老師穩定了以後我們的孩子才能夠穩定下來所以其實我們現在看到我這邊提一下其實我們現在全國我們看到專人教室的缺額都是非常的多這是全國我們先來看全國的專人教室的缺額"},{"start":101.252,"end":124.143,"text":"國小大概有4,225名國中有545名高中高達842名那這其中當然偏鄉學校相對的也有一定的比例大概也在5%上下的左右那我們還是有缺額那剛才其實部長好像還有提到就是流動率其實感覺不高就是2點多是不是您剛好像有提到一個數字我應該說條例實行前大概2.1多國中1.9那現在實施的這幾年大概已經都降到1.2左右"},{"start":130.686,"end":131.166,"text":"教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案"},{"start":146.735,"end":156.023,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第4會"},{"start":172.797,"end":180.099,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":192.262,"end":207.289,"text":"教育部立法院第11屆第1會期教育部立法院第11屆第2會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院第1會期教育部立法院"},{"start":212.931,"end":228.365,"text":"東台地區也有這個相關的佳績尤其在交通費的部分我們現在每個月目前本席現在掌握到每個月大概630塊的一個佳績您知道嗎這個連一張台北到玉里的這個自強號的車票恐怕都只能買單程我是希望部長"},{"start":229.406,"end":235.189,"text":"做了這麼多很細緻的地方我們可能要再去詳細的去檢視該要多給的我們要把經費去把它加好加滿來所以呢我們今天的報告可以說非常的多內容在裡面但部長我想要請您自己說我們關於偏鄉的學校不管是我們對孩子的照顧包括我們課後的照顧相關的輔導"},{"start":254.298,"end":268.704,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":279.528,"end":298.593,"text":"經過一個暑假只剩下校長其他人都不見了。這個制度從現在來回頭檢視剛才跟我們報告的這個流動力還有你看8500位即將在明年可以資歷九任獎金也就表示他們有三分之一應該不只將近二分之一是有達到八年"},{"start":299.173,"end":304.097,"text":"提一下你認為現在還存在的問題點我跟委員報告因為現在偏鄉剛才委員提到一個重點我覺得家庭的這方面的支撐確實是對偏鄉孩子目前我認為是一個我們一定要再強化因為隔代跟單親在偏遠地區比例相對於一般地區是高"},{"start":317.106,"end":336.522,"text":"這方面也應該孩子是最重要的所以當這個沒辦法去改變他家庭的狀況之下我覺得應該再擴大像我們說大手吸小手的概念也就是孩子在晚上回到家那種陪伴學習是重要的大手吸小手的這個計畫或者日夜光天使等很多的計畫那我覺得很不錯那我想今天在這裡我們不逐條來談只希望剛剛上次我講的這一些關於偏向地區學校的問題我們要更細緻更加強好不好"},{"start":343.808,"end":365.766,"text":"我今天還要用一點時間特別討論一下最近有一個大家很關心的議題我想請一下吳林輝司長我們現在關於特教法的部分我們這次預告有要做一些修正特別是關於我們在分散式資源班的部分過去我們在分散式資源班的師生筆還有導師費這兩點我想跟您討論師生筆在資源班的部分我們過去是沒有去訂定的"},{"start":377.775,"end":400.412,"text":"竟然有辦法在這個分散式資源辦的地方把幼兒園1比15、國小1比10、然後國中1比8、這個高中1比15,第一個,怎麼定出來的?我們怎麼有辦法定出來?第二個,既然我們要修正,我們要把它定出來,然後法治化之後,為什麼只有國中是1比8,而其他的沒有達到我們之前修法所要達到目標1比8,為什麼?"},{"start":403.514,"end":430.667,"text":"這兩個問題這個案子我很深入的跟國教組討論也希望他們去收集第一線的資料跟情況那當時我們委員會那邊有訂出說希望給教育部五年能夠有一個一比八的這樣的一個概念但是我跟委員報告現在這個一樣叫做資源班或巡迴班其實在幼兒園他是孩子不是抽出來的他是直接進到這個班比如進兩到三個沒錯沒錯其實形容形容是一個在轉班裡面的概念"},{"start":430.947,"end":436.25,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":452.219,"end":476.346,"text":"你看喔,我們是前幾年,去年我們才在講我們幼兒園現在的師生比1比12嘛對不對那你還把幼兒園的這個這個分散資源班定到1比15也就是說其實我們照顧特殊的孩子其實更辛苦但我不懂為什麼你的這個指定在1比15委員你這個解釋非常好為了為什麼一定要把那個一般班的幼兒園調成1比12因為那個負擔真的重啦那現在資源班一樣是幼兒園那現在的資源班負擔又不重嗎"},{"start":481.328,"end":497.529,"text":"他就是我們有比如說有兩位或三位的幼生他在這個一般班裡面除了會減少他的班級人數以外現在這個資源班的老師的特教老師他是進到一般的普通班裡面去協助這個不是抽離式的"},{"start":497.93,"end":502.614,"text":"我理解 但是部長我想我們既然都以這個1比8這個數字為一個目標我們既然要修訂其實本席希望我們再仔細考慮一下1比15這個數字其實是不符合現在老師的負擔那我們希望能夠再縮小一下這個師生比這是第一個本席今天要求第二個我跟昭瑋要30秒時間第二個我們過去在導師費的部分其實也沒有規範 對不對"},{"start":524.614,"end":527.595,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第18條文修正草案案。 於2013年10月1日,國會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":553.752,"end":568.131,"text":"你們了解嗎?因為目前的那個分散式資源班在現行的行政規則裡頭是每班至多一位可以給導師費,至多一位。至多一位,那我們有的是兩位跟三位導師,剩下那兩位怎麼辦?啊?署長?"},{"start":571.845,"end":597.347,"text":"委員這個細節我再瞭解一下到時候再請跟委員說明一下因為裡面有好幾項的經費沒有沒有那個部長可能您不太清楚其實署長很清楚我覺得這件事情我在這裡鄭重地提出來我們既然規範了不管特教班跟資源班要一個或兩個或三個老師不同的制度我們應該每一個人都要能夠享有領這個導師費而不是大家三個人或兩個人共享一份導師費部長如果不太清楚"},{"start":597.807,"end":604.789,"text":"施行迄今之成效及檢討。」進行專題報告：立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委"},{"start":624.913,"end":632.556,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會"},{"start":644,"end":658.459,"text":"請市長來說明,現在我們的資源班跟特教班導師是一個還是有一個以上的可能﹖說明一下,集中式特教班一定有,一般一定是兩個。那分散式資源班在過去的法規裡頭是每班至多一個。"},{"start":661.421,"end":673.589,"text":"現況國教署在修訂高中以下學校的特教班跟資源班的專程教育班,以後就是固定一個班一個,以前是自多一個,那現在把自多拿掉了,還是只有一個。好,那現在魯明就來了,"},{"start":675.23,"end":675.57,"text":"教育及文化委員會主席"},{"start":705.41,"end":706.751,"text":"教育部立法院第11屆第1會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第3會期"}]}},{"id":"152002","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152002","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1f57d372a3e9a9118d5e9ec982727c87755be169921a0a717fdd133de7319c8ca5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"09:16:36 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絕對不可能像我們在辦理這種升遷啊或者是輪調的作業過程當中絕對不會去處理到這一方面的這個問題那我在這邊可以做保證"},{"start":326.457,"end":350.364,"text":"所以是請我們部裡的員工就是盡量的就是信任這一套計畫然後相信我們外交部OK好謝謝那我們也希望就是說我們外交部能夠提供員工一個在身心靈方面都能夠非常安心的一個工作環境OK好那接下來我要請教部長的是處長請回我要請教部長我能不能再多做一點點補充跟委員做一下補充"},{"start":352.004,"end":368.418,"text":"我覺得我們的同仁是不是能夠感受到我們外交部是一個友善的職場環境我常常覺得說我應該要以身作則從我自己開始跟我工作過的同仁都知道說彼此相互對待"},{"start":369.119,"end":388.961,"text":"那如果說能夠有這個友善的這個態度的話那這個可以擴及到整個外交部那自從我到外交部之後這種風氣這種文化是逐漸的在擴展當中所以我們外交部很久以前有聽說過長官如何對待部署的這種嚴厲的這個故事現在已經完全都沒有了"},{"start":390.644,"end":417.879,"text":"謝謝部長您的努力我希望這個能夠持續下去接下來我想要請教的就是部長的就是有關於這個台灣關係法那台灣關係法到今年剛好是45週年那在1979年立法的時候說實在那時候的時空背景跟現在是完全是不一樣因為那時候中國剛結束文化大革命剛好滿三年那時候又是美蘇冷戰的處於最高峰的這時候而且中國還沒有崛起"},{"start":418.319,"end":418.579,"text":"蘇聯解體,中國崛起"},{"start":441.759,"end":444.041,"text":"請問部長我們這邊目前有沒有這樣子跟美方有沒有這樣子的一個一個協調或說這樣子的一個溝通"},{"start":463.847,"end":487.51,"text":"非常謝謝委員,委員對於這種國際局勢的這種變化的這種了解讓人感動那至於我們跟美方之間就這個議題的討論我知道是有一些好朋友他們有提出來就是說整個國際局勢變化了就好像委員剛剛所說的也因此需要來修訂那個台灣關係法那可是在於我們跟"},{"start":488.331,"end":488.351,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":509.939,"end":523.89,"text":"布林肯國務卿他就對外發言說要協助我們台灣參加這一屆的世界衛生大會所以這個根本不構成對我們台灣的這個限制那另外關於協助我們台灣的這個防衛能力而言台灣關係法裡面"},{"start":525.151,"end":525.871,"text":"有一個條文是特別的重要第4條"},{"start":545.402,"end":568.438,"text":"就是說雖然我們跟美國之間沒有正常的這個外交關係可是這個條文裡面定的非常的清楚就是說有關於任何涉及到政府主權國家等等的通通都可以被適用到那個台灣那所以我想台灣關係法的這個適用的這個程度是非常的廣也因此我個人也覺得說沒有必要再去修訂台灣關係法"},{"start":569.699,"end":570.96,"text":"所以部長您是認為說台灣關係法目前是夠用的,所以沒有要修法的這個考量?"},{"start":591.601,"end":610.766,"text":"對還是換句話說不想觸動中國敏感的神經病不是這個我想那個臺灣關係法本身如果說委員可以去看一些比較重要的條文的話我想應該會跟我有一個同樣的結論就是說這一部臺灣關係法的確對我們臺灣來講非常的重要裡面的條文已經非常的足夠OK好謝謝部長謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152001","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152001","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db166eac3e41394593ed575e50b9cd8685a55be169921a0a7172c3008b14a89fbfd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:13:36 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09:24:13","影片長度":"00:10:37","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員王育敏等19人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【以上議案，如經復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-14"},"duration":637,"end_time":"2024-05-02T09:24:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:13:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":160,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（9時13分）謝謝主席。有請部長。"],["主席：好，請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長早。部長，我今天的質詢會高度仰賴29年多來來自健保署的聘書，我認真的出席每一場會議所累積的專業知識跟經驗，在這裡跟您做詢答，如果你認為我那29年是錯的，你公然在這地方講，甚至我擔任召集人，你當然也大可以把我所有的發言廢除，你也可以校正回歸，把我所做的決議全部廢除。","部長，我第一個問題，前幾天我有質詢衛福部桃園醫院的院長缺，這麼重要、唯一有機會成為醫學中心的醫院，可以懸缺了22個月的院長一職？是否為王必勝而留？這是醫界傳說的，您說沒有。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有。"],["陳委員昭姿：這件事我們繼續等著看。"],["薛部長瑞元：好。"],["陳委員昭姿：接下來，不好意思，還是醫界傳說，因為我的消息是非常廣泛的。上次醫院評鑑，報載原本萬芳醫院是降為準醫學中心，台北慈濟是要升為醫學中心，但是因為這個傳說很久以後，整個公布時間延宕到大選過後，而且修改遊戲規則，最後萬芳醫院勉強沒有掉到準醫學中心，安全上樁，台北慈濟如所言就成為醫學中心，雙和醫院又在爭議中從準醫學中心變成了醫學中心，最後臺大新竹醫院也加入進來，總共一口氣在數目上增加了3家醫學中心。醫務管理協會理事長說，這是不是為某個門系、某個派系，究竟是誰受益，一下子增加3家醫學中心，您說這是臆測之詞。可是部長，您即將在光榮卸任以後要回到爭議中成為醫學中心的雙和醫院，你要在那邊服務，你等於是帶著一份非常厚重光榮的禮物回到母院服務，我覺得太巧妙了，這跟王必勝的部分其實是五十步和百步之間，請院長參考，請部長參考，部長，我差點幫你升官，也是有機會的。","每200萬人口應該設立一家醫學中心，這是醫療網的規劃，我覺得臺大新竹升格是合情合理，因為那個地方人口增加了，人數增加了，但是臺北區才750萬人，根據醫療網規劃，200萬人一家醫學中心，應該4家就夠了，但是部長知道現在有幾家嗎？10家。所以部長，你要捫心自問，新增醫學中心到底是要提升醫療品質，還是為了幫助你光榮歸建某派系的醫院？大家可以想想看。部長，我第一次質詢的時候問你醫學中心還不夠多嗎？我們在健保實施之前是很正常的醫療構造，地區醫院大概600家，醫學中心十幾家等等，二十幾年後變轉成這個怪模型，我還問你地區醫院家數將近腰斬變成300出頭，這樣的家數你覺得OK嗎？您當時回答我還有門診，堂堂部長怎麼會認為門診和地區醫院是服務同一群病人？醫院等同診所嗎？我覺得部長的回答很奇怪，而且如果你要談診所，我就要談社區藥局。","衛福部不顧醫療網計畫，帶頭違規、濫設醫學中心，我想請問部長，如果未來中區、南區出現一樣的理由，什麼辨識度有問題，你是不是也要一併都增額錄取呢？你如果不做就是雙標，做了就是惡化分級醫療！所以這個決定根本就沒有經過全盤考慮，導致的潛在後遺症很大！部長！"],["薛部長瑞元：我可以回答嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：你還能回答什麼？可以，如果你覺得我是對的，你就可以繼續回答我，如果你認為我是錯的，你可以說我講的都是錯的。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為我本人就是從雙和醫院借調過來，當然我如果卸下職務之後，一定必須要回去歸建，但是回去歸建也不見得就是在……"],["陳委員昭姿：我祝福你回到醫院，但是在衝突當中、爭議當中……"],["薛部長瑞元：關於醫學中心的家數，其實從委員在講醫療網規劃的時候……"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，你不要跟我說別人沒有遵守，所以你就不遵守，我覺得這不是部長級的話。"],["薛部長瑞元：不是，一開始的時候，200萬人一家醫學中心就是一個參考標準，因為在當時臺北區就已經8家了，早就超過了。"],["陳委員昭姿：但是你繼續加碼！部長，不好意思！我們繼續往後講，我大概知道你要談什麼，我瞭解。","指示藥違法給付30年，部長有話講嗎？健保法第五十一條第四款規定，指示藥不屬於健保給付範圍，部長，你不要再跟我說前人不守法，我也跟著不守法，這個是小混混講的話，不要用部長級的高度跟我這樣回答。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有，這部分必須要漸進的，不管任何制度在調整的時候……"],["陳委員昭姿：漸進非常好！部長，搞不好你還沒有我熟，我們來看看怎麼漸進法，來看這個圖，2005年4月侯署長宣布將不再給付指示藥，當時制酸劑所謂的胃藥和維他命成功退場。指示藥中所謂的感冒藥，因為感冒藥很多是非處方藥，所以就卡住了，卡住了之後2014年健保署當時也做了一些配套措施，我今天沒有辦法在這個地方分享，我都有參與。2014年3月健保署宣布依法不再給付指示藥，年底會完成，也是空頭支票，2014年12月二代健保總檢討以及2015年全國藥品政策會議說非處方藥退出，保大不保小，2017年健保會提出要回歸法條，但是這些都是一場空。有人說指示藥只不過一、二十億，影響不大，部長，我不知道你瞭不瞭解，這種見解叫見樹不見林，指示藥不給付事實上是所謂的小病症，小病改變就醫行為，不要動輒就上醫院。因為根據健保署統計，如果每個人每年少看1次病的話，就可以省掉370多億點，所以是不是要回到所謂的自我照顧？光簡單的小病症，俗稱感冒，一年就將近300億點，包括新藥、血友病、愛滋病、罕病加起來也沒那麼多，所以現在我們的重病出問題。我要告訴部長，今天我可以用兩句話來形容臺灣的醫療現況跟困境，小病保得好、大病大缺口，這是我們要的健保嗎？這符合社會保險的精神嗎？小病保得好、小病保得滿、大病大缺口，請部長思考。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分我不贊成，現在大病難道都沒有保嗎？"],["陳委員昭姿：癌藥只有保障30%。"],["薛部長瑞元：癌藥是另外一個問題，它是新進的藥進來的太慢。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，我們再來看看醫療指標，我們現在輸人家輸得很慘。"],["薛部長瑞元：我們最近CEOWORLD才第一名。"],["陳委員昭姿：來看以藥養醫，以藥養醫是很不得已的，因為給付不夠，所以今天大家才會提出點值，然後不得不用其他方式來彌補醫院一些不足的地方，部長，我可以再請問你一次嗎？你的數字還一樣嗎？藥價差有多少？您大腦中的數字，藥價差有多少？"],["薛部長瑞元：差不多在500億，但是總藥價的話是2,300億。"],["陳委員昭姿：500億還是低估了。"],["薛部長瑞元：不能隨便講低估就低估喔！"],["陳委員昭姿：是你要告訴我，我已經查過了。"],["薛部長瑞元：我就跟你講500億。"],["陳委員昭姿：不是我要告訴你，你要負責告訴我，其實石署長知道，但是……"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我就說500億，你如果不同意這個數字，你要提出來。"],["陳委員昭姿：我不同意這個數字，你在反質詢！"],["薛部長瑞元：不能隨便講這樣就是低估。"],["陳委員昭姿：關於健保醫療點值，大家都支持醫療點值要提高，但是我們要有一些配套作法，所以也建請部長思考一下，趁著這次點值調整是不是好好跟醫界溝通，提出一些比較進步的支付制度，譬如DRGs、論質計酬，還有所謂以結果論來當基礎的包裹治療。部長，我要告訴你，臺灣真的還進步嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個現在都已經在做了。"],["陳委員昭姿：臺灣什麼都輸，不只OECD，連韓國都輸得很慘，癌症死亡率輸了10%，5年存活率，人家是70，我們是60，新生兒死亡率也是最高的，糖尿病合併症死亡率也是最高的，不要再讓國人以為我們醫界首列前茅的假象。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然這都有改進的空間。"],["陳委員昭姿：我不會說醫生不好，而是醫療投資不足，保障醫療點值、合理藥價差要同步進行，我同意你把長照加入整個計算裡面，但是我上次也提到了，新的科技、新的醫療進來對長照有幫助的部分、費用減省的部分，也是要一併考慮。有關藥價差部分，我覺得日本的方式可能是比較理想的，先有一個合理的藥價差，它先猛猛地降了一波再慢慢降，再停一下，然後再慢慢降，最後配合現在的點值提高，就回到大家不再仰賴藥價差來作為醫院營利最容易仰賴的因素之一，部長，這樣可以嗎？最重要的是整個藥價的部分透明化、可預測。"],["薛部長瑞元：所有這些改革都是我們必須要逐步來進行，其實也都有。"],["陳委員昭姿：部長，已經30年了，逐步再一個30年。"],["薛部長瑞元：30年是每一個階段、每一個階段逐步的改，你不能說30年，然後要跳到現在，要一次斷崖式的……"],["陳委員昭姿：跟代孕法案一樣再等30年嗎？30年都不做，每個部長都不做就會這樣跳躍啊，如果每個都做一點，就不會是這樣子。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然，本來就是，所以我們現在也在做。"],["陳委員昭姿：我沒有看到效果。"],["主席：接下來請陳菁徽委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-14","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","黃秀芳","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","劉建國","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","賴士葆","李彥秀","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","賴惠員","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；二、委員蘇清\n泉等27人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康\n保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.09846875000000001,"end":1.22909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.523468750000001,"end":8.957843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.227843750000002,"end":10.15596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.64846875,"end":18.22221875},{"speake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bicyn 您當時回答我說還有門診啊,但是"},{"start":220.349,"end":247.03,"text":"况々部長怎麼會認為門診跟地區醫院跟醫院是服務同一群病人嗎?醫院等同診所嗎?部長您的回答我就覺得很奇怪而且如果你要談診所我就要談社區藥局了。好那衛福部不顧醫療網計劃帶頭違規爭亂社醫學中心那我想請問部長如果未來中區南區出現跟一樣的理由什麼辨識度啊什麼有問題那你是不是也要一併都爭額入局呢?"},{"start":247.751,"end":248.212,"text":"我可以回答?"},{"start":265.03,"end":285.879,"text":"你還能回答什麼嗎?可以啊。如果你覺得我是對的,你就可以繼續回答我。如果你認為我是錯的,你就說我講的都是錯的啊。因為我本人就是從雙核醫院這邊戒掉過來。當然我如果卸下職務之後,一定必須要回去歸建。但是回去歸建也不見得就是在...我祝福你回到...也但是這個在這個衝突當中嘛,爭議當中嘛。"},{"start":290.384,"end":295.667,"text":"adequ一開始的時候兩百萬人一家醫學中心就是一個參考的標準因為在當時的時候臺北區就已經八家了"},{"start":313.547,"end":314.508,"text":"只是要不屬於健保給付範圍。"},{"start":329.005,"end":346.018,"text":"那你也部長你不要再跟我說齁前人不守法我也跟著不守法這個是小混混講的話不要用部長級的高度跟我這樣回答沒有這部分就是要必須要漸進的不管任何的制度在調整的時候部長搞不好你沒有我熟喔我們來看看怎麼漸進法喔好來"},{"start":347.059,"end":348.64,"text":"二、國民黨黨團擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":367.426,"end":373.81,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具〈全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．事由〈全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．事由〈全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．事由〈全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．"},{"start":397.125,"end":415.282,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":415.402,"end":442.388,"text":" bicylson 回到這個所謂的自我照顧。那這個我現在講一下。包括簡單的小病症感冒俗稱感冒一年就將近300億點。那加起來就包括心藥、血友病、艾滋病、寒病加起來也沒那麼多。所以現在我們重病出問題。所以我要告訴部長今天我可以用兩句話來形容我們臺灣的醫療現況跟困境。小病保得好,大病大缺口。"},{"start":443.408,"end":457.724,"text":"這是我們要的健保嗎?這是符合這個社會保險的精神嗎?小病保得好,小病保得滿,大病大缺口。好,請部長思考。這個部分的話我不贊成。我們現在大病難道都沒有保嗎?"},{"start":458.609,"end":486.749,"text":""},{"start":487.628,"end":513.522,"text":"您大腦中的數字,要價差有多少?差不多在500億啦。但是總要價的話是2300億。欸,那個500億還是低估了啦齁?不能隨便講低估就低估喔。是你要告訴我,我已經查過了。我就跟你講說500億啊。你要負責告訴我,其實池組長…我就說500億啊。你如果不同意這個數字,你要提出來啊。"},{"start":514.923,"end":532.398,"text":""},{"start":532.458,"end":533.418,"text":"當然這個都有感情的空間啦。"},{"start":560.589,"end":588.166,"text":"�"},{"start":588.166,"end":605.998,"text":""},{"start":606.397,"end":622.165,"text":"部長,這樣可以嗎?我想最重要的是整個要價的部分透明化、可預測。部長,已經30年了。好,逐步。再一個30年嗎?再整個30年嗎?那30年都不做。每個部長30年都不做就會叫跳躍啊。如果每個都做一點就不會是這樣子吧?當然啊,本來就是這樣。所以我們現在也在做啊。我沒有看到效果。好,謝謝部長。"},{"start":637.301,"end":637.529,"text":"三、國民黨黨團擬具"}]}},{"id":"152000","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152000","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1a164c1a252798bc2e12ebde737ab3c1955be169921a0a717f4b7e6a97e5cb2d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"09:19:24 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bicyn Kwan-yong等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12條條文修正草案：立法院第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第13會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會"},{"start":80.34,"end":88.473,"text":"醫療從業人員長期低薪出走心要嚴實進入台灣市場醫學生不願選擇極重難等科的困境"},{"start":92.745,"end":115.951,"text":"我提出的第六十二條修正案總共有十二位委員共同提案二十七位連署已經五十幾位、四十幾位將健保總額支出由支出的上限制改成支出的目標制我們外界都認為我們要廢掉總額沒有!我們是希望改成支出的目標制"},{"start":120.053,"end":145.974,"text":"讓醫療支出有合理固定點值至少0.95以上最好是一點預言0.95就已經很誇張了啦如果每點費用低於預言的時候由政府公務預算補儲至於行政單位要怎麼來修改其他的法規那行政單位就要去用功我們兩位總統三位總統的候選人在"},{"start":148.057,"end":173.638,"text":"進選期間提出的政見希望能夠兌現尤其是賴副總統,現在要當總統了讓年度的支出目標更合理反映出當時社會人口結構及醫療科技發展的費用需求期盼政府部門協助與提供資源共同穩住臺灣健康保險及卓越的醫療照護系統提高醫療機構的韌性永續發展"},{"start":178.766,"end":185.396,"text":"我們國民黨黨版的宗旨也差不多是這樣但是希望最少0.95以上一併說明謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151997","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151997","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1a4dae871392fae87e12ebde737ab3c1955be169921a0a71761e60d5d759f24045ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:05:05 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稅額的年齡從24歲以下放寬到30歲以下可扣抵當年營業勢力所得稅由目前的150%提高到220%以增加中小企業為員工加薪的誘因改善勞工低薪的現狀也讓勞工分享經濟成長的果實以上謝謝"}]}},{"id":"151995","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/151995","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db12494bca3ae5dd9fa0cbbe991ada1931c55be169921a0a7179cb4223b3f47f7a65ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"09:01:54 - 09:04:20","影片長度":"00:02:26","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答)【4月29日及5月2日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":146,"end_time":"2024-05-02T09:04:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T09:01:54+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.603468750000001,"end":9.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.476593750000003,"end":17.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.79596875,"end":28.39784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.97159375,"end":35.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.11409375,"end":41.47596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.86409375,"end":42.674093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.197218750000005,"end":44.159093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.90159375,"end":46.572218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.399093750000006,"end":82.71846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.95471875000001,"end":87.56159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.16909375,"end":120.29909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.95721875000001,"end":131.41971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":134.05221875,"end":145.96596875}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.855,"end":27.955,"text":"謝謝主席本席針對偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第8條跟第12條及21條做了一些修正的事項針對第8條就是現行的代理教師如果是公開甄選的跟自辦甄選的方式他們在"},{"start":29.056,"end":45.852,"text":"之前教育的一個全額補助上面有不一樣的情形所以希望能夠將自辦甄選方式的代理教師呢也可以納入他的一個之前教育全額補助的一個項目第二項就是第12條的第五項規定"},{"start":47.458,"end":58.288,"text":"在教學場所位於原住民地區取得建物實用執照或實用實施建築管理前合法房屋證明文件之前經地方主管機關確認無危險之餘,得以經開業之建築師職業之土木結構"},{"start":63.572,"end":85.717,"text":"工程師、技師或結構工程科技師出具之結構安全鑑定證明文件及經地方主管機關查驗合格之簡易消防安全設備設置平面圖替代之且考量偏遠及離島地區的特殊性,依憲法徵修條文第十條保障、輔助並促其發展之精神並輔導該等地區"},{"start":88.257,"end":106.21,"text":"寄存為合法之建築物作為國民、小學、分校、分班或教學場所者納入管理。該規定僅限於本次本法修正施行前,列管之寄存為合法登記者得以適用。」第三個就是現任的"},{"start":107.731,"end":131.058,"text":"學校跟學校的校戶也就是護理師或者是護士任用的並沒有在他偏遠地區的學校的一個獎勵的一個鼓勵措施的發放編制裡面所以我們修正第21條的第二項增訂護理師或護士準用之規定給予獎勵9任之獎金或其他獎勵措施以上"},{"start":134.07,"end":142.967,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第2會"}]}},{"id":"152122","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152122","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db16aa822c1d31238a1e5dad6307223f0f855be169921a0a7170853a9f02a015eae5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"11:37:51 - 11:44:33","影片長度":"00:06:42","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查或處理「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算(112至113年度)」及「中央政府疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算」決議：\n一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。\n二、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案9案。\n三、有關交通部主管預算凍結書面報告案14案。\n四、有關行政院農業委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n五、有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結書面報告案11案。\n六、有關文化部主管預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n七、有關數位發展部主管預算凍結書面報告案7案。\n八、有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n九、有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n十、有關行政院環境保護署預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n十一、有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案。）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15,19,22,23,26],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15,19,22,23,26-1"},"duration":402,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:44:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:37:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":867,"blocks":[["陳委員昭姿：（11時37分）謝謝主席，有請衛福部李次長。"],["主席：有請李次長。"],["李次長麗芬：委員好。"],["陳委員昭姿：次長好。次長，在剴剴事件之後，衛福部做了一些檢討，原來出養的評估是交給民間社福團體，也因為這個機構從出養到安置都沒有財源，所以只能由收養端的費用支付，在這個情況之下，機構可能會去找比較便宜的保母，甚至目標就是達到出養，本席覺得這有道德風險，也會有利益衝突。所以現在你們把出養評估交回地方政府，本席非常認同，不過地方政府人力的部分，也希望中央能夠協助，不要因為人力問題又卡住。","本席要談的是，現在只有出養部分的評估交回由政府做，那收養評估呢？還是由民間做嗎？次長，剴剴這個事件，本來有個疼愛他的保母，他們的相處也很好，保母也表達想要收養這個孩子，但是她被兒福聯盟拒絕了，我們不理解拒絕的原因，之後就發生悲劇了。所以本席想了解收養的部分要怎麼做？次長，本席自己也收養小孩，本席要告訴你，收養的問題其實沒有局外人想像的那麼簡單。"],["李次長麗芬：確實，我們這次檢討的不只是出養端，還包括收養的相關機制是不是有檢討空間，這個部分我們已經納入這次兒權法的修法。因為我們也知道，現在收養人必須在不同的媒合機構接受相關課程評估，怎麼減少重複做評估和訓練這件事情，這個部分我們有在做檢討。"],["陳委員昭姿：好，謝謝次長，因為時間有限，本席還有其他重點要詢問。次長，請你看下一張簡報，關於收養這件事情，我們從政府的資料來看，終止收養的比例竟然高達五成，也就是說，收養最後的結果不是happy ending，不是收養之後就是一個快樂的結局，但是有很多人反對代孕，要求我們去收養。","其實本席是最近才看到這個數字，你看有一半是終止收養關係。終止收養有三個方式，一個是雙方合意，另外一個是法院判決，通常都是虐待等等，第三個是養父母死亡。本席要強調，終止收養都是負面的，即便養父母死亡也未必要終止收養關係，可見相處的狀況可能是負面的。次長，你有掌握這個訊息嗎？"],["李次長麗芬：有。其實……"],["陳委員昭姿：一半以上都終止關係耶！"],["李次長麗芬：是包括所有的收養，不一定是每一個……"],["陳委員昭姿：成年、未成年都包括在裡面。"],["李次長麗芬：對，都包括在裡面。我們……"],["陳委員昭姿：但是為什麼社會都在呼籲大家去收養，例如叫不孕夫婦收養，為什麼你們都不出聲呢？收養其實是有很大的問題。請次長再看下面這一張簡報，關於收養前的評估，現在兒少界有兩套標準，有親屬關係的只要收養人到法院申請就可以了。","另外一個就是像本席一樣沒有血緣關係，反而要經過媒合機構上課、面談、訪視。在本席那個年代，我們還到法官那邊兩次，四個人交了一堆證件，包括健康檢查證明、財產證明、收入證明、良民證。現在有兩套標準，次長，您覺得有血緣關係的收養就不用經過這些評估嗎？"],["李次長麗芬：基本上因為民法本來就有一些關於收養的機制，所以對於五等親內的收養，我們覺得不用經過媒合機構，可是還是要經過法院裁定。"],["陳委員昭姿：次長，你們這個法太落後了。我們看右邊這個表，終止收養案件80%是來自近親和寄居收養，也就是有血緣關係的收養，80%是終止的，剩下的20%才是無血緣關係的收養。這個部分你們的法沒有跟上啊！我們認為其中的差別可能是因為他們沒有做評估嘛！所以評估可能很重要，因為有親屬關係未必就會有比較好的結尾，你們可以看看這個數字。所以次長，你們的法規跟不上了。"],["李次長麗芬：應該是說，因為有血緣關係，如果還要透過媒合機構……"],["陳委員昭姿：這是你說的，但本席現在是用結果和你討論嘛！事實上就是80%有親屬關係的終止收養，你們要從這個結果去檢討。"],["李次長麗芬：好的。"],["陳委員昭姿：這是一國兩制。其實不只一國兩制，還有一國八制的部分。剛才提到的收養是一國兩制，而收費卻是一國八制，你知道嗎？請次長看一下這個部分，不同的兒福機構收費不同，從7萬元到12萬元，送到國外的要1萬美元。本席認為這個成本，剛才也提到會有一些顧慮，如果由兒福機構處理，但本席覺得成本應該由政府負擔。","本席認為出養這件事情的媒合應該由政府做，而不是交給民間團體，因為收費的問題會衍生剛才本席提到的，可能會用比較便宜的保母，因為目標就是出養。其實出養不是最好的結果，如果能留在原家庭等等，對孩子應該是比較健康的，全世界都這麼認定。","所以次長，本席覺得有兩件事需要檢討，一個是親屬收養關係是不是也要比照無血緣的關係，使用同一套評估標準？因為失敗率太高了。第二個，這麼重要的事情不要再交給民間團體做，政府是不是應該自己做？"],["李次長麗芬：關於由民間做或是政府做，我們這次修法是因為依據過去的兒權法規定，確實只有民間可以做，這次修法的方向是希望政府可以自行做，或者也可以委託民間。另外在收費的部分，我們希望政府要負起最大的責任。"],["陳委員昭姿：還是繼續委託民間嗎？"],["李次長麗芬：「或」，要看縣市政府的量能。我要向委員特別報告，我們也注意到收養後，對於這些收養家庭的服務，其實是沒有提供的，我們這次修法也認為，對於願意收養的家庭，我們應該給予相關的支持服務。"],["陳委員昭姿：次長，對，收養後的追蹤非常重要，謝謝次長，謝謝主席。"],["李次長麗芬：謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝陳昭姿委員的質詢。","緊接著請陳委員玉珍發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","陳亭妃","吳秉叡","賴士葆","萬美玲","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","王鴻薇","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","陳玉珍","張宏陸","游顥","陳秀寳","鄭正鈐","羅廷瑋","徐富癸","黃秀芳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","李坤城","陳素月","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","黃健豪","王美惠","范雲","張雅琳","林月琴","王正旭","賴瑞隆","吳春城","徐欣瑩","鍾佳濱","邱志偉","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","葉元之","蘇清泉","盧縣一","陳超明","李柏毅","林岱樺","劉建國","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王育敏","牛煦庭","吳琪銘","蔡易餘","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查或處理「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 4期特別預算(112至113年度)」及「中央政府疫後強\n化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算」決議：一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告\n案4案；二、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案9案；三、有關交通部主管預算凍結書面報告案\n14案；四、有關行政院農業委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案 3案；五、有關衛生福利部主管預算\n凍結書面報告案11案；六、有關文化部主管預算凍結書面報告案1案；七、有關數位發展部主管\n預算凍結書面報告案7案；八、有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案1案；九、有關內政部主\n管預算凍結書面報告案3案；十、有關行政院環境保護署預算凍結書面報告案1案；十一、有關國\n家科學及技術委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案","agenda_id":"1133901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.0222187500000004,"end":3.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.5915937500000004,"end":3.7772187500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.11471875,"end":11.708468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.978468750000001,"end":21.68159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.95159375,"end":29.22471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.511593750000003,"end":36.548468750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.00409375,"end":51.297218750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.49659375,"end":44.580968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.55034375,"end":63.51471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.88596875,"end":77.68971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.17159375,"end":72.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.59284375,"end":77.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.22971875,"end":112.80659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":78.26346875,"end":78.49971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.30534375,"end":107.67659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.75659375000001,"end":109.12784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.27971875,"end":109.46534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":110.00534375000001,"end":124.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.27909375,"end":113.46471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.10846875000001,"end":126.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.61034375000001,"end":152.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.59284375000001,"end":130.96409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.49971875,"end":132.92159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.52596875,"end":166.45221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":165.76034375,"end":173.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":170.23221875000002,"end":171.39659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.78471875000002,"end":172.76346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.03346875,"end":183.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.46221875,"end":184.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":185.23409375,"end":210.91784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.15409375000002,"end":216.97596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.97596875000002,"end":217.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.30909375000002,"end":218.32596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.32596875000002,"end":220.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":221.11034375000003,"end":235.03221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.72096875000003,"end":229.85159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.33659375000002,"end":232.41659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.02409375000002,"end":234.32346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":234.61034375000003,"end":235.01534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.03221875000003,"end":235.58909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.31909375,"end":235.50471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":235.58909375000002,"end":235.63971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":235.63971875000001,"end":236.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":236.19659375,"end":236.55096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.55096875,"end":250.27034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":241.39409375000002,"end":241.51221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":243.67221875,"end":244.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.43909375,"end":250.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":250.47284375,"end":251.28284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.57409375,"end":269.10284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":267.46596875,"end":277.37159375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.32159375000003,"end":278.11409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":278.75534375,"end":301.24971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":301.40159375,"end":346.20471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":313.72034375000004,"end":314.10846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":316.23471875,"end":316.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":329.59971875,"end":329.93721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":330.57846875,"end":331.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":334.61159375,"end":334.88159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":346.77846875,"end":392.49284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.93159375000005,"end":366.62346875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":382.03034375000004,"end":385.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":386.89034375,"end":387.48096875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":388.49346875000003,"end":388.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":398.97284375000004,"end":401.50409375000004}],"whisperx":[{"start":2.042,"end":9.027,"text":"委員好,市長好。市長在凱開事件之後,衛福部有做了一些檢討,就是有關原來出養的評估是交給民間的社福團體來做,那也因為這個機構它從出養到安置,它是沒有它的財源的,所以只能從收養端的費用來支付。"},{"start":22.017,"end":22.057,"text":"主席"},{"start":37.317,"end":50.571,"text":"我這個非常認同,不過地方政府的人力的部分也希望中央要能夠去協助,不然因為人力的問題又卡住了。但是我要談的是說,現在只對出養的部分的評估交給回到政府來做,那收養評估呢?是不是還是由民間來做嗎?因為次長主要就是說凱凱這個事件,本來有個疼愛她的保姆,相處也很好。"},{"start":59.099,"end":76.761,"text":"他想要表達收養這個孩子他的保姆但是他被兒扶拒絕了那這個原因我不理解但是後來就悲劇了所以我是想了解說有關這個收養部分要怎麼做次長我自己都收養小孩的我要告訴你收養的問題其實沒有局外人想像的那麼簡單"},{"start":78.343,"end":79.584,"text":"修養人必須在不同媒合機構接受相關課程評估"},{"start":108.183,"end":109.464,"text":"政府的資料來看,終止收養的比率竟然高達五成。"},{"start":125.177,"end":151.588,"text":"也就是說收養通常它最後面的結果它不是個happy ending不是收養就是一個快樂的結局這個很多人反對待運要求我們去收養我其實最近才看到這個數字你看有一半是終止收養關係那終止收養會經過有三個方法一個雙方合議另外一個就是說法院判決那通常都是虐待等等那第三個是養父母死亡那我要談的是說"},{"start":155.042,"end":172.534,"text":"中止都是負面的嗎?即便養父母的時候你未必要去做這個中止關係,但是可見可能相處是負面的。我想市長你有掌握這個訊息嗎?有。一半以上都中止關係。對,它整個是包括所有的收養,不一定是每一個。成年未成年,都在裡面。都在裡面。"},{"start":174.315,"end":196.981,"text":"但是為什麼社會都在呼籲大家去收養?叫不孕婦去收養,為什麼你們都不出生?收養其實是有很大的問題。請市長再看我下面這一張。其中,屬於這個親屬關係,因為收養前的評估,現在兒少是有兩套標準。就是有親屬關係的,他只要是這個收養人去法院申請就可以了。但是另外就是像我一樣,沒有血緣關係的。"},{"start":198.161,"end":201.485,"text":"反而要經過媒合機構、上課、面談、訪視。當時我那個年代我要到法官那邊去了兩次,我們四個人。還有我交了一堆證件,健康檢查證明、財產證明、收入證明,還有良民證。就是兩套標準在評估。次長,您覺得有血緣關係的收養就不用經過這些評估嗎?"},{"start":218.765,"end":235.593,"text":"基本上因為我們是在民法本來就有一些相關收養的一個機制在,所以我們對於在五等親內的收養,我們還是覺得是不用經過媒合機構,可是還是要經過法院策定。你這個法就是太落後了,我們看右邊這個表。"},{"start":236.653,"end":237.814,"text":"有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。"},{"start":269.716,"end":289.073,"text":"因為有血緣關係如果還要再去透過媒合製作我現在用結果跟你討論嘛事實上就是八分之八十是有基礎關係終止收養你要從這個結果去檢討再來這個是一國兩制另外還不只一國兩制還有一國八制的就剛才提到收養是一國兩制"},{"start":290.174,"end":290.214,"text":"主席"},{"start":312.495,"end":335.546,"text":"這個媒合應該由政府來做而不是在民間的團體來做那收費的問題會衍生這個因為收費問題就衍生剛剛我提到的會用比較便宜的保母然後他可能會就是我的目標就是出養其實出養不是最好的結果如果能留在原家庭等等應該是對孩子是比較健康因為全世界都是這麼認定所以市長所以我覺得兩件事要檢討一個親屬收養關係是不是也要比照無血緣的關係它有同一套的評估標準因為失敗率太高了"},{"start":341.208,"end":366.639,"text":"2、是否這麼重要的事情不要再交給民間團體來做?是不是政府都來自己做?我們對於是不是民間或是政府我們這次修法是因為過去的兒權法確實只有民間可以做那我們這次修法的方向會希望是政府可以自行還是要委託給民間那另外在收費這個部分我們會希望說政府要負起最大的一個責任還是繼續委託給民間嗎?或或"},{"start":368.96,"end":390.467,"text":"這是因為又會看那個縣市政府的一個量能的問題那我要跟委員特別報告就是說我們也注意到說收養後對於這些收養家庭的服務其實是沒有提供的我們這次在修法裡面也認為說收養之後的家庭我們應該要給相關的支持服務謝謝知長 謝謝主席好 謝謝陳昭之委員的諮詢請接著我們請陳玉珍委員的諮詢"},{"start":399.011,"end":400.743,"text":"主席我們請這個交通部"}]}},{"id":"152121","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152121","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1314295a37995b018e5dad6307223f0f855be169921a0a7177b98ec381cd5a4705ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"11:30:15 - 11:37:37","影片長度":"00:07:22","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查或處理「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算(112至113年度)」及「中央政府疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算」決議：\n一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。\n二、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案9案。\n三、有關交通部主管預算凍結書面報告案14案。\n四、有關行政院農業委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n五、有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結書面報告案11案。\n六、有關文化部主管預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n七、有關數位發展部主管預算凍結書面報告案7案。\n八、有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n九、有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n十、有關行政院環境保護署預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n十一、有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案。）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15,19,22,23,26],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15,19,22,23,26-1"},"duration":442,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:37:37+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:30:15+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":825,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（11時29分）謝謝主席。有請教育部劉次長，謝謝。"],["主席：有請劉次長。"],["劉次長孟奇：委員早。"],["陳委員培瑜：次長早。我們的投影片還沒有顯示出來，不好意思，時間可以暫停一下嗎？"],["主席：時間請暫停。"],["陳委員培瑜：沒有關係，我們先繼續好了。"],["主席：好，請繼續。"],["陳委員培瑜：本席想和次長請教關於國家語言發展法，還有國家語言發展報告的事情，事實上111年8月行政院就核定國家語言發展報告，通過之後就向所有二級機關發了這張公文，請各級機關應斟酌國家語言整體發展方案的書面用語規範，優先使用臺灣原住民族語、臺灣客語、臺灣台語、馬祖語和臺灣手語，可是我們往下看發生了什麼事情。","最近師大臺灣語文學系多位教授聯名向行政院提出陳情，就是關於教育部拒絕把相關國家語言發展業務的名稱，從閩南語改為臺灣台語。行政院把這個公文發到國家語言發展法主管機關文化部，文化部再移文到教育部，結果教育部的回應是啟動課綱研修程序，地方政府課綱修訂小組諮詢會議的意見無法取得共識，所以沒有辦法改。但是就次長所知，國家語言發展方案當中，難道教育部主管的業務只和課綱有關嗎？"],["劉次長孟奇：當然還包含國家語言整體發展方案裡面的方案，我們也有執行。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們來看下一頁。事實上除了臺師大教授陳情之外，在國外還有多個例子，有很多臺灣學者在海外教學的時候，他們教台語文課程，可是卻被中國學者或是中國學生質疑，你們的教育部自己都在課綱和相關公文中指這個叫做閩南語，你們憑什麼把在海外教的這個語文稱為台語？次長，您覺得我們的學者，或是我們在海外教臺灣語文的老師、教授們，他們心裡面做何感想？"],["劉次長孟奇：現在這個議題的確已經進入我們的課綱研修小組討論。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是如同次長剛才說的，它不會只和課綱有關，對不對？"],["劉次長孟奇：是，另外還和國家語文整體發展方案有關。"],["陳委員培瑜：是。針對海外這個部分，還有後續本席要和您討論的，目前我們盤點整理之後，還有語文競賽、語言檢定、文學獎、辭典名稱，其實都和您剛才說的相關，如果課綱還需要討論，這些和本土語言有關的業務，其實有很多都可以先行調整，教育部為什麼遲遲沒有動作？"],["劉次長孟奇：這部分我們再來檢討一下。但是如果和課綱有關，目前還是需要在課綱研修小組中討論，可能當中的確是有一些問題，我們再來……"],["陳委員培瑜：好。我們尊重課綱研修小組的相關專業會議，可是明明有很多是現在就可以更正的地方，但是教育部卻不更正。因為時間有限，本席想要拜託教育部，全面盤點和課綱無關的業務，例如本席剛才說的語言檢定、語言競賽、文學獎、辭典名稱。把閩南語改成臺灣台語這件事情，教育部可以積極進行相關報告、研究嗎？"],["劉次長孟奇：我們是不是在一個月內把相關報告交給委員？"],["陳委員培瑜：好。本席希望這個報告裡面呈現的，不要只是做相關研究啟動，因為它確實可以積極調整。再來，如同您剛才說的，有很多必須拉到課綱研修會議中討論，請再度嚴正的強調這個概念，並放入相關的討論當中。"],["劉次長孟奇：好，我們會針對委員的兩個建議，提供報告給委員。"],["陳委員培瑜：尤其是台語的主體性，這個部分先謝謝次長。接下來要拜託體育署副署長，謝謝。關於前瞻基礎建設的部分，在本席的簡報畫面左邊，這是之前體育署林德福署長提出的，當時的前瞻計畫是說要蓋六座球場，做為發展臺灣足球的基地，你應該有印象。可是回過頭來看，目前真的蓋起來，而且在運作當中的，只有一座楠梓足球場，這還是高雄的劉世芳委員積極、認真爭取的結果。","回過頭來看其他經費，現在都變成田徑場整修及學校足球場的費用，所以臺灣民間足球界一談到前瞻計畫，或是談到6年足球計畫，大家都非常失望。今天利用質詢的時間，本席要再次提醒副署長，因為接下來我們還有優化全民運動與賽會環境計畫經費，我們來看一下，目前你們發出去的經費都落在哪裡？全部都放在學校整修或者相關的興建。","明明之前和大家討論的是都會型、小型共用足球場，但是目前完全沒有看到相關計畫，體育署現在開放各縣市申請的項目，都是郊區和設施的整建。大家都在看，體育署的態度到底是什麼？"],["房副署長瑞文：目前也有請各縣市政府盤點適當的區位，縣市政府這邊可能會比較不好……"],["陳委員培瑜：好，就是這句話！你們就是盤點，沒有更積極的動作，甚至你們也沒有進行相關邀案，或者告訴縣市政府，你們不是把相關足球場修好就好，還有非常多社區、俱樂部都在找場地，但是卻找不到。你們在進行相關案件說明的時候，可以秉持積極的開放態度，麻煩你們積極調整。"],["房副署長瑞文：是，這部分目前有18個案子，原則上我們都會給予支持。"],["陳委員培瑜：這些案子沒有問題，本席不是要擋他們的預算，本席說的是其他社區俱樂部的需求，你們明明都知道。"],["房副署長瑞文：好，我們再來邀。"],["陳委員培瑜：這個部分我們辦公室也會持續追蹤。"],["房副署長瑞文：好的。"],["陳委員培瑜：最後1分鐘。本席想和副署長討論一下，上個月體育署舉辦的中學足球聯賽發生爭議，你應該知道，就是美崙國中和右昌國中。本席不是專業裁判，不知道現場有沒有誤判並做出決議，可是本席看了相關影片後發現，最後幾波的衝突，不要說裁判和球員，其實現場沒有贏家，怎麼說？我們往下看。本席幫你抓出這個影片，你可以快速看一下，你一邊看，本席一邊說。","在這個判決當中，居然有人在現場對裁判下指導棋，把原來的黃牌變成紅牌。穿紅色衣服這個人，他是中學聯賽的裁判長。請問副署長，在足球比賽中，有人可以對現場的裁判指揮判罰嗎？"],["房副署長瑞文：這個部分目前看起來應該是裁判長為了阻止兩邊選手進去造成衝突，所以他進場主要是把兩邊的選手隔開，不讓他們發生進一步的衝突。"],["陳委員培瑜：可是他改了判罰結果，對嗎？"],["房副署長瑞文：在這個當下，一切都是以裁判的判決為最終判決，這是按照競賽規則的規定。"],["陳委員培瑜：為什麼大家會對體育署或是對這件事情做相關討論？本席想先和副署長分享一件事，在比賽後，這個孩子當場就告訴爸媽，他要上網賣掉自己的球鞋，一雙五、六千元的球鞋，他不要了，一、兩千元就要賣掉，為什麼？孩子覺得大人的不公為什麼要他們來承擔？因為時間有限，本席快速的拜託體育署，體育署主辦的中學足球聯賽，這一次裁判長介入賽事爭議，但真的不是第一次，過往有非常多案例，請在兩週內提出完整報告，不要再放任中學體總繼續獨厚特定人士。","再來，裁判養成不易，相關的派令要慎重。關於利益迴避，其實你們都非常清楚，也請你們積極承擔必須負起的責任。每次體育現場大人造成的錯誤，卻要小孩承擔，其實這些體育署都知道，我們辦公室就有非常多陳情，也都有告訴你們，這一次的事件，本席覺得進行相關調查之後，如果真的有疏失，真的必須向孩子道歉，不要再讓他們承受大人所犯的錯誤。"],["房副署長瑞文：目前有請高中體總提出完整的報告，我們也會再加以檢視，針對個別的選手，是不是容我們也請同仁去了解、關心一下？"],["主席：請體育署事後補充說明。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝陳培瑜委員的質詢。","緊接著請陳委員昭姿發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","陳亭妃","吳秉叡","賴士葆","萬美玲","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","王鴻薇","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","陳玉珍","張宏陸","游顥","陳秀寳","鄭正鈐","羅廷瑋","徐富癸","黃秀芳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","李坤城","陳素月","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","黃健豪","王美惠","范雲","張雅琳","林月琴","王正旭","賴瑞隆","吳春城","徐欣瑩","鍾佳濱","邱志偉","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","葉元之","蘇清泉","盧縣一","陳超明","李柏毅","林岱樺","劉建國","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王育敏","牛煦庭","吳琪銘","蔡易餘","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查或處理「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 4期特別預算(112至113年度)」及「中央政府疫後強\n化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算」決議：一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告\n案4案；二、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案9案；三、有關交通部主管預算凍結書面報告案\n14案；四、有關行政院農業委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案 3案；五、有關衛生福利部主管預算\n凍結書面報告案11案；六、有關文化部主管預算凍結書面報告案1案；七、有關數位發展部主管\n預算凍結書面報告案7案；八、有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案1案；九、有關內政部主\n管預算凍結書面報告案3案；十、有關行政院環境保護署預算凍結書面報告案1案；十一、有關國\n家科學及技術委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案","agenda_id":"1133901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":60.03846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.337843750000005,"end":68.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.40846875,"end":99.27284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":100.75784375,"end":105.98909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.98909375000001,"end":109.44846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.14034375000001,"end":113.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":113.31284375000001,"end":117.54846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.71721875,"end":134.45721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":135.52034375,"end":144.80159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.25784375,"end":163.27971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":163.36409375000002,"end":167.53221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.59159375000002,"end":165.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.41409375,"end":182.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":182.83784375000002,"end":186.51659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.28034375000001,"end":193.92471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":195.05534375000002,"end":258.33659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":258.72471875,"end":267.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.48784375,"end":284.39159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":282.77159375,"end":286.31534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":286.11284375,"end":292.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.64784375,"end":294.04409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.96409375,"end":336.18096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":295.30971875,"end":295.42784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.50159375000004,"end":336.51846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":336.51846875,"end":336.53534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":336.53534375000004,"end":353.86596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":353.05596875000003,"end":354.52409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":354.15284375000005,"end":362.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":359.83971875000003,"end":418.69971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.41284375000004,"end":430.34346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":426.73221875,"end":432.94221875000005}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.069,"end":4.031,"text":"請各級機關應斟酌國家語言整體發展方案的書面用語規範,優先使用臺灣原住民語、臺灣客語、臺灣台語、麻族語跟臺灣手語。可是呢,我們來往下看發生了什麼事情。"},{"start":27.444,"end":45.023,"text":"在最近,師大台灣系的多位教授聯名向行政院提出陳情,就是關於教育部拒絕把相關國家語言發展業務的名稱從閩南語改成台灣台語。那行政院就把這個文發到國家語言發展法主管機關文化部,文化部再移文到教育部。結果教育部你們的回應是,"},{"start":47.085,"end":59.135,"text":"啟動課綱研修程序,找了地方政府課綱修訂小組諮詢會議的意見,無法取得共識,所以沒有辦法改。但是次長就您所知道,其實國家語言發展方案當中,難道教育部主管的業務只有跟課綱有關嗎?"},{"start":61.68,"end":83.776,"text":"跟委員報告,當然我們還包含國家語言整體發展方案裡面的方案,我們也有執行,是。好,那我們來看一個下一頁,來。那事實上我們看到這個除了台師大教授陳琴之外呢,我們來往下看喔。在國外有多個例子,有很多台灣的學者在海外教學的時候,他們在教台語文課程,那可是我們卻被中國的學者或是中國的學生質疑說,"},{"start":84.717,"end":108.784,"text":"你們的教育部自己都在課綱跟相關的公文裡面說叫做閩南語,你們憑什麼把你們在海外教的這個台語叫做台語?次長您覺得我們的學者或是我們在海外教台灣這些老師教授們他們心裡面做何感想?委員報告,這個議題的確我們現在已經進我們的課綱研修小組在討論。但是如同次長您剛剛說的,它不會只有跟課綱有關,對不對?"},{"start":110.408,"end":134.23,"text":"是,它另外還有是跟國家語言整理發展方案。是,那針對海外這個部分還有後續我要跟您討論的來下一頁。其實目前我們盤點整理有語文競賽的部分、語言檢定的部分、文學獎的部分、詞典名稱的部分,其實它都可以跟您剛剛說的課綱如果都還需要討論,但是光是在這些本土語言的業務上就有很多事情可以先行調整,但是教育部為什麼遲遲沒有動作?"},{"start":135.78,"end":162.816,"text":"公文報告,這我們再檢討一下,但是如果是跟課綱有關的,的確目前還是遵循課綱。好,那我們尊重課綱啟動研修的相關討論專業會議,可是明明有很多現行可以更正的地方,但是教育部卻不更正,那因為時間有限了,我想要積極拜託教育部,全面盤點跟課綱沒有關的業務,例如說我剛剛說的語言檢定、語文競賽、文學獎、死點名稱,把閩南語改成台灣台語這件事情,這邊可以積極進行相關報告研究嗎?"},{"start":163.556,"end":181.33,"text":"是不是我們把一個月內把這個相關的報告就給委員?好,那我希望這個報告裡面呈現的不要再只是做相關研究的啟動,因為它確實可以做積極的調整。再來,如同您剛剛說的,有很多必須要拉到課綱討論會議的時候,請把這個概念再度嚴正地強調放入相關的討論當中。"},{"start":182.881,"end":193.155,"text":"好,我們就針對委員的兩個建議來提供報告。好,尤其是台語的主體性的部分。好,那這個部分先借市長。那接下來要拜託那個體育署副署長,謝謝。"},{"start":195.537,"end":216.759,"text":"關於前瞻基礎建設的部分在我的畫面左邊這個是之前體育署林德輔署長他當時前瞻計畫說蓋6個球場作為發展台灣足球基地我想您應該都有印象可是回頭看目前真的蓋起來而且運作當中的只有一座男子足球場而且這還是高雄的劉世芳委員積極認真爭取出來的結果回過頭來看其他經費"},{"start":218.26,"end":232.886,"text":"到現在都變成田徑場的整修還有學校足球場的費用所以一旦台灣民間足球界談到前瞻談到六年足球計畫大家都非常非常的失望那今天在質詢的時間我要再次提醒副署長因為接下來我們還有優化全民運動與賽會環境計畫經費我們來看一下目前你們發出去的經費呢都落在哪裡"},{"start":240.229,"end":258.031,"text":"全部都放在學校的整修或者是相關的興建可是明明大家之前跟大家討論過的都會型小型共用足球場目前完全沒有看到相關的計畫那體育署現在還開放各縣市申請這些都是郊區跟設施的整建大家都在看體育署到底相關的態度是什麼"},{"start":258.909,"end":283.716,"text":"報告員,因為目前也有請各個縣市政府在盤點適當的區域。那就是因為,好,就是這句話,就是你們盤點,可是你們沒有更積極的說法,甚至你們沒有相關的腰案,告訴縣市政府,不是不是把相關組場修好,有非常多非常多的社區俱樂部正在,他們都在找場地,他們都在找不到場地,但是你們明明在進行相關案件說明的時候,可以更積極的開放這個態度,那麻煩你們積極的調整。這部分目前18個案子,我們原則上都會給予..."},{"start":286.297,"end":314.43,"text":"這些案子我沒有問題我沒有要去擋他們的預算我說的是其他社區俱樂部他們的需求你們明明都知道我們再來邀好我們再來邀好那這個部分我們辦公室也會持續追蹤最後一分鐘我想要跟副署長討論一下上個月體育署辦的中學足球聯賽發生爭議我想你都知道美倫國中跟右昌國中那我不是專業裁判我不就上現場有沒有誤判做出決議可是我看了相關的影片我發現最後幾波的衝突不要說裁判跟球員現場其實沒有贏家怎麼說我們來往下看"},{"start":315.37,"end":320.274,"text":"在這個判決當中,居然有人在現場對裁判下指導棋,把原來的黃牌變成了紅牌。紅色衣服這個人,他是中學聯賽的裁判長。副署長請問你在足球比賽中,有任何人可以對現場的指揮裁判判法嗎?"},{"start":337.085,"end":345.208,"text":"跟委員報告,這個部分目前看起來應該是裁判長為了要阻止兩邊的選手進去有當下的衝突,所以他進場主要是把兩邊的選手這邊有隔開,不要讓他們進一步的衝突,然後在這個當下的話,"},{"start":355.931,"end":382.648,"text":"一切都是以那個裁判這邊的一個判決為最終的一個判決但我們要說事實上為什麼大家會對體育署之間或是對這個事情有相關的討論我想要先跟副署長分享在比賽後這個孩子他當場就告訴他爸媽他要把他的球鞋上網賣掉了一雙五六千塊的球鞋他就不要了他一兩千塊就要賣掉為什麼孩子覺得這個大人的不公為什麼要他們來承擔所以我這邊時間有限我想要快速拜託體育署體育署主辦中"},{"start":383.729,"end":407.152,"text":"請中學足球聯賽裁判長這次介入賽事爭議,但真的不是第一次,過往有非常多的案例,請在兩周內提出完整報告,不要再放任中學體總繼續讀後特定人事這件事情。再來,裁判養成不義,相關的派令其實我覺得利益迴避你們都非常清楚,也請你們積極承擔相關,你們必須要負責任。再來,體育每次現場大人的錯誤卻要小孩承擔,體育署"},{"start":407.372,"end":428.441,"text":"其實都知道,我們辦公室非常非常多陳情,都一直在告訴你們,這一次事件我覺得相關調查報告後,如果真的有疏失,真的必須要向孩子道歉,不要再讓他們承受相關我們辦案所犯的錯誤。目前有請高中體育總這邊提出完整的報告,我們這邊也會再加以檢視。針對這個個別的選手,是不是總統我們這邊也請我們同仁這邊去解關心一下。好,提出之後補充說明。好,謝謝。謝謝陳培委員的諮詢,請接著請陳昭之委諮詢。"}]}},{"id":"152120","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152120","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1654ea61846536d5fe5dad6307223f0f855be169921a0a7174cf22a73b69dd6195ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"11:22:40 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11:29:52","影片長度":"00:07:12","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查或處理「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算(112至113年度)」及「中央政府疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算」決議：\n一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。\n二、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案9案。\n三、有關交通部主管預算凍結書面報告案14案。\n四、有關行政院農業委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n五、有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結書面報告案11案。\n六、有關文化部主管預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n七、有關數位發展部主管預算凍結書面報告案7案。\n八、有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n九、有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n十、有關行政院環境保護署預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n十一、有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案。）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15,19,22,23,26],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15,19,22,23,26-1"},"duration":432,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:29:52+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:22:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":790,"blocks":[["陳委員菁徽：（11時22分）主席、各位委員、各位官員。請主計總處副主計長和衛福部次長。"],["主席：請主計總處副主計長，衛福部李次長。"],["陳副主計長慧娟：委員好。"],["陳委員菁徽：你好。前瞻計畫已經執行到第四期，剩下的不到800億元，本席想請教副主計長和次長，這個前瞻計畫的重點，很多都放在綠能、軌道、數位、城鄉等等，我們來統計一下，自從2017年前瞻預算開辦至今，最近衛福部非常關心的就是食安議題、食品安全網，我們對食安方面的建設投資到底占上限8,400億元的百分之多少？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：我們前瞻計畫是先有計畫再有預算，相關計畫要經過我們的審查機制，我們不會先預設占多少比例，它有點競爭型的概念。"],["陳委員菁徽：本席懂。所以你們覺得可能會花多少錢，然後就編列進去？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：只要確保計畫是很重要的，當然它就可以獲得預算。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，我們來看一下關於食安建設的投資。我們算了一下，居然僅占上限的0.47%。為什麼本席會關注這個議題？大家知道從去年的新聞至今，不管是瘦肉精，或是邊境查不完的外國進口草莓、水果，還有最近的寶林茶室風暴，這個禮拜有第四個非常無辜的受害者身亡，以及衛福部之前承諾兩、三個月要把下游的蘇丹紅全部查完。","因為我們每次質詢，你們都告訴我們量能不足、人力不足、抽檢不足，所以我們沒有把事情做好。因此，本席也想在這邊幫次長喊話，這部分的經費在第五期前瞻預算當中是不是應該占更高比例？還有喔！這裡面還有貓膩喔！這0.47%的食安建設經費裡面，居然有21%，也就是花了8億5,000萬元蓋房子，是昆陽大樓基礎建設整建更新。","本席也想請問副主計長，如果衛福部要做一些翻修，或者蓋實驗室、更新設備器材等等，為什麼要用特別預算？以公務預算提出不是天經地義的事情嗎？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：這個部分會使用特別預算，當然是因為我們認為它很急迫，而且滿重要的，所以就用特別預算支應。委員所關心的食安問題，的確是我們要重視的，所以未來不管是特別預算或年度預算，只要衛福部提出相關的計畫，就它的……"],["陳委員菁徽：所以你的意思是說，衛福部這棟大樓是很突然的需要整建，所以才撥特別預算給他們？"],["陳副主計長慧娟：不是很突然，是它有急迫性。因為我們的特別預算有這樣的空間，所以就把它納編到特別預算。"],["陳委員菁徽：很明顯嘛！所以難怪做的不夠好。我們來看你們幫自己設定的KPI，衛福部聯合分工檢驗體系的食品檢驗件數，從110年開始看，每年都有8,700件，等於每個月至少725件。前瞻計畫第五期會到明年8月結束，至少是8個月，所以應該超過5,800件的KPI，為什麼你們幫自己列的目標值是4,200件？另外一個指標，一般例行性食品檢驗件數，每個月至少有5,666件，8個月應該超過45,000件，可是你們也只列3萬件，你們不是已經覺得自己量能不足了嗎？"],["李次長麗芬：委員好。這個部分是不是可以請食藥署的同仁回答？他們比較知道這部分的執行概況。"],["王副署長德原：事實上中央、地方在執行食品檢驗的部分，每一年平均都會超過10萬件以上。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以這是追加的？"],["王副署長德原：是的。"],["陳委員菁徽：如果是追加，為什麼你們覺得從110年到現在會逐年減少？因為我們最近的食安問題是越來越嚴重。"],["王副署長德原：其實不是只有前瞻基礎建設計畫的經費有支應在食安檢驗方面，事實上我們每年的公務預算以及其他科技預算，還有社發經費，都有相關經費撥用在中央和地方的相關檢驗上。"],["陳委員菁徽：所以我們幫次長一起爭取，第五期可不可以再多放一些心力在食安的部分？謝謝。"],["王副署長德原：知道。"],["李次長麗芳：我們來努力，謝謝。"],["陳委員菁徽：好，謝謝大家。"],["主席：還有1分鐘，你可以繼續質詢。"],["陳委員菁徽：最後本席想和次長一起向副主計長爭取，癌症新藥基金是賴準總統一項很重要的政見，因為癌症新藥納入健保起碼要兩年，和日本、韓國比起來天差地遠，他們是幾十天。現在我們的癌症死亡率，5年存活率嚴重落後先進國家，包括我們所有的鄰近國家，因此我們希望可以編列一個癌症新藥基金，有十幾位朝野立委已經提出要修正癌症防治法第十六條，本席也想在這邊問一下次長和主計總處，你們是不是會做可行性評估報告？"],["李次長麗芬：這個部分我們朝向設一個新藥基金，可是要不要修法等等，那個部分我們要再做一些研議，我們已經很努力在爭取相關預算。"],["陳委員菁徽：有，你們現在是用臨時撥補的方式。"],["李次長麗芬：對。"],["陳委員菁徽：可是癌友告訴本席，也許他第一年可以獲得治療，那第二年、第三年呢？因為剛才衛福部部長也說了，每年的財源是非常不穩定的，這一點你也知道嘛！"],["李次長麗芬：對。這個部分我們會繼續爭取預算。"],["陳委員菁徽：希望儘快提出一份可行性評估報告，謝謝。"],["李次長麗芬：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳菁徽委員的質詢。","接著請陳委員培瑜發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","陳亭妃","吳秉叡","賴士葆","萬美玲","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","王鴻薇","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","陳玉珍","張宏陸","游顥","陳秀寳","鄭正鈐","羅廷瑋","徐富癸","黃秀芳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","李坤城","陳素月","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","黃健豪","王美惠","范雲","張雅琳","林月琴","王正旭","賴瑞隆","吳春城","徐欣瑩","鍾佳濱","邱志偉","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","葉元之","蘇清泉","盧縣一","陳超明","李柏毅","林岱樺","劉建國","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王育敏","牛煦庭","吳琪銘","蔡易餘","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查或處理「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 4期特別預算(112至113年度)」及「中央政府疫後強\n化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算」決議：一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告\n案4案；二、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案9案；三、有關交通部主管預算凍結書面報告案\n14案；四、有關行政院農業委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案 3案；五、有關衛生福利部主管預算\n凍結書面報告案11案；六、有關文化部主管預算凍結書面報告案1案；七、有關數位發展部主管\n預算凍結書面報告案7案；八、有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案1案；九、有關內政部主\n管預算凍結書面報告案3案；十、有關行政院環境保護署預算凍結書面報告案1案；十一、有關國\n家科學及技術委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案","agenda_id":"1133901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":0.06471875,"end":0.48659375000000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":1.16159375,"end":2.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.232218750000001,"end":8.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.738468750000003,"end":9.075968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":9.46409375,"end":11.15159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.25159375,"end":20.669093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.06159375,"end":21.32721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":21.37784375,"end":21.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":22.59284375,"end":31.70534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":31.992218750000006,"end":34.20284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":34.30409375,"end":39.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.85596875,"end":63.210968750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.18096875,"end":87.00471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.73909375000001,"end":86.98784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.00471875000001,"end":95.29034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.13034375000001,"end":94.37909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":95.59409375,"end":110.22471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":110.54534375,"end":117.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":117.48096875,"end":118.17284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":118.37534375000001,"end":119.06721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.45534375000001,"end":125.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":125.39534375000001,"end":132.66846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":133.30971875,"end":146.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":147.41721875000002,"end":155.41596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":155.58471875,"end":165.32159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":165.77721875,"end":187.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.02284375000002,"end":187.19159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.19159375,"end":187.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":187.78221875,"end":187.83284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":187.83284375000002,"end":211.76159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.76159375,"end":216.92534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":211.77846875,"end":212.58846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":217.27971875,"end":219.03471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":219.03471875000002,"end":232.97346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":232.97346875000002,"end":273.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":273.87846875,"end":276.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":277.87784375,"end":287.68221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":287.68221875,"end":295.02284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":296.40659375,"end":297.70596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":298.04346875000005,"end":298.33034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":298.73534375,"end":307.59471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":308.47221875,"end":322.69784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":312.69096875,"end":312.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":322.69784375,"end":329.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":330.61221875,"end":330.69659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":330.69659375000003,"end":331.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":331.70909375,"end":332.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.23221875,"end":333.95346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":334.88159375000004,"end":336.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":336.43409375000005,"end":336.45096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":336.92346875000004,"end":337.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":337.05846875000003,"end":338.71221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":337.54784375,"end":378.82409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":338.71221875000003,"end":338.72909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":379.22909375,"end":383.88659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.25346875,"end":399.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":399.96846875,"end":406.75221875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":406.92096875000004,"end":411.49409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.39284375000005,"end":411.46034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":411.49409375000005,"end":411.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":411.93284375,"end":412.01721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.11846875000003,"end":412.23659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.23659375000005,"end":412.27034375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.27034375000005,"end":412.32096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":412.32096875,"end":412.75971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":412.75971875000005,"end":418.73346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":414.56534375,"end":416.53971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":416.84346875,"end":417.24846875000003},{"speake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11:22:31","影片長度":"00:07:12","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查或處理「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第4期特別預算(112至113年度)」及「中央政府疫後強化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算」決議：\n一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告案4案。\n二、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案9案。\n三、有關交通部主管預算凍結書面報告案14案。\n四、有關行政院農業委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n五、有關衛生福利部主管預算凍結書面報告案11案。\n六、有關文化部主管預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n七、有關數位發展部主管預算凍結書面報告案7案。\n八、有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n九、有關內政部主管預算凍結書面報告案3案。\n十、有關行政院環境保護署預算凍結書面報告案1案。\n十一、有關國家科學及技術委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案。）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15,19,22,23,26],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15,19,22,23,26-1"},"duration":432,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:22:31+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:15:19+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":769,"blocks":[["林委員宜瑾：（11時15分）謝謝主席。有請數發部次長。"],["主席：請數發部李次長。"],["李次長懷仁：委員好。"],["林委員宜瑾：次長好。今年3月27日本席在教文委員會質詢文化部史哲部長的時候，部長很明確的回答新聞有價。媒體議價在世界各國都是現在進行式，而且文化部所輔導的北市報業公會或雜誌公會，他們都認同要積極推動媒體議價法，又或者要設立培育第四權韌性特別基金。所以本席要請問次長，你是否也同樣支持新聞有價？或者認同臺灣要設置媒體議價法？"],["李次長懷仁：謝謝委員垂詢。有關新聞有價這個部分，沒有問題，行政院和跨部會參與的單位，包括數位部、文化部、通傳會，都認為新聞有價，這完全沒有問題。但是不是要採用媒體議價法這個路線？目前行政院並沒有確認，而且世界各國也不是都走媒體議價法，媒體議價法在世界各國是少數，多數還是走所謂的著作鄰接權。"],["林委員宜瑾：對，好。當然，是不是要立法處理媒體有價的議題，這個可以討論，本席去年就提出數位新聞發展與民主韌性法草案，這個草案明定數位發展部就是主責機關，歷經9個月的等待，因為屆期不連續，這個會期本席又再度提案。在這9個月當中，各國的腳步都是持續前進，像印尼，他們已經簽署法令，要求數位平台應付費才能使用媒體內容。","而最致力於將歐盟的著作鄰接權概念內國法化的法國，至今仍無法有效對數位平台做出規範，可是面對數位平台的陽奉陰違，他們也無奈的只能一次次開罰。臺灣就如同您說的，其實每個部會都認同新聞有價，可是至今我們還是不清楚主責單位到底是哪一個，討論3年還在澳洲的專法模式或歐盟的著作鄰接權模式搖擺不定。","其實國內的學者已經說的非常明白，立法是確保媒體與平台公平競爭的唯一方法。當然，新設專法是一個最好的方式，但歐盟的著作鄰接權模式，本席認為恐怕不是一個值得學習的方式。怎麼說呢？成功大學法律系的許教授就曾以採著作鄰接權模式的法國為例，用法國的狀況來看，數位平台還是坐擁不對等的市場和協商方式，拒絕與媒體進行透明、客觀、公開、誠信的協商，最終還是要仰賴所謂的競爭委員會介入，才可以發揮著作鄰接權的功效。","所以換句話說，如果要達到實質有效的媒體議價，要求平台告知所謂的評估報酬等必要資訊，而且在協商不成的時候由仲裁委員會出面，並指定獨立監管人進行後續的管理和執行，這些都是必要的措施。請教次長，你認同這樣的說法嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：其實委員剛才有提到，這個議題在行政院的層級也討論了3年，隨著現在科技的進步，包含美國、歐盟，他們已經不是只討論媒體議價這個部分，現在最重要的概念是AI的資料探勘有沒有使用到媒體資料庫。上個禮拜英國的金融時報剛和OpenAI簽署資料庫的授權，也就是說，當AI在進行語言學習，使用新聞出版內容的時候，它是有價的。"],["林委員宜瑾：對。"],["李次長懷仁：去年底的時候，美聯社也同樣簽署一年一千萬美元的授權給OpenAI。所以現在西方各國注目的，其實是新聞內容怎麼保護起來，不被所謂的AI大型平台任意使用。因為如果按照委員剛才提示的澳洲模式，不管是澳洲或是紐西蘭、加拿大，都可以很清楚的看到，目前他們所有的立法都只抓到Google一家，所以所謂的強制議價法，很可能也只會抓到Google。但是現在有太多AI平台在做語言學習的時候，很有機會使用到我們的新聞出版內容，因為新聞出版內容反映了各個時代的精確語言內容。"],["林委員宜瑾：你剛才提到Google，Google的3年3億元數位共榮基金，到底能不能當作媒體議價法的替代方案？臺大新聞所教授林照真指出，他說Google的數位共榮基金，第一年獲得補助的23個提案申請當中，有17家新聞媒體和民間網路媒體，還有另外5家科技公司和1個大學系所，換句話說，實際上Google的數位共榮基金和補償新聞著作權的損失無關。也就是說，長期使用新聞媒體內容卻未付費的問題仍舊存在，沒有獲得解決。所以次長，如果照您剛才說的，你們如何評價Google的數位共榮基金？"],["李次長懷仁：就數發部的立場，我們從來不認為3億元的共榮基金會和媒體議價法有關係，那是Google針對所謂的新聞產業進行新創或是使用科技的一筆基金，和媒體議價沒有關連。"],["林委員宜瑾：所以你也認為媒體有價，可是未必要用媒體議價法處理？"],["李次長懷仁：當然。"],["林委員宜瑾：你有想到更好的方式嗎？"],["李次長懷仁：我們比較贊成和傾向的，是因應時代的進步，著作鄰接權會連媒體被AI做資料探勘使用的權利一併保障。"],["林委員宜瑾：好，這個問題可以再好好討論。謝謝次長。"],["主席：謝謝林宜瑾委員的質詢。","接著請陳委員菁徽發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":122,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15,19,22,23,26-1","speakers":["郭國文","林德福","陳亭妃","吳秉叡","賴士葆","萬美玲","洪孟楷","吳沛憶","葛如鈞","王鴻薇","李彥秀","蘇巧慧","林宜瑾","陳菁徽","陳培瑜","陳昭姿","陳玉珍","張宏陸","游顥","陳秀寳","鄭正鈐","羅廷瑋","徐富癸","黃秀芳","郭昱晴","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","李昆澤","李坤城","陳素月","楊瓊瓔","羅明才","王世堅","黃健豪","王美惠","范雲","張雅琳","林月琴","王正旭","賴瑞隆","吳春城","徐欣瑩","鍾佳濱","邱志偉","顏寬恒","謝衣鳯","葉元之","蘇清泉","盧縣一","陳超明","李柏毅","林岱樺","劉建國","邱議瑩","張嘉郡","邱鎮軍","廖偉翔","王育敏","牛煦庭","吳琪銘","蔡易餘","賴惠員"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政、經濟、教育及文化、交通、社會福利及衛生環境委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查或處理「中央政府前瞻基礎建設計畫第 4期特別預算(112至113年度)」及「中央政府疫後強\n化經濟與社會韌性及全民共享經濟成果特別預算」決議：一、有關教育部主管預算凍結書面報告\n案4案；二、有關經濟部主管預算凍結書面報告案9案；三、有關交通部主管預算凍結書面報告案\n14案；四、有關行政院農業委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案 3案；五、有關衛生福利部主管預算\n凍結書面報告案11案；六、有關文化部主管預算凍結書面報告案1案；七、有關數位發展部主管\n預算凍結書面報告案7案；八、有關原住民族委員會預算凍結書面報告案1案；九、有關內政部主\n管預算凍結書面報告案3案；十、有關行政院環境保護署預算凍結書面報告案1案；十一、有關國\n家科學及技術委員會主管預算凍結書面報告案2案","agenda_id":"1133901_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.008468750000002,"end":9.61596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.20659375,"end":46.690343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.517218750000005,"end":72.44159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.92659375000001,"end":93.70409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.05846875,"end":139.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.41846875000002,"end":143.01284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.82284375,"end":164.69721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.38909375,"end":170.77221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.17721875,"end":175.59846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.91909375,"end":196.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":197.16471875000002,"end":242.03534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":242.74409375000002,"end":248.73471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":249.13971875000001,"end":260.91846875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":261.20534375,"end":263.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":263.29784375,"end":264.91784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":265.15409375,"end":275.11034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.11034375,"end":275.43096875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":275.43096875000003,"end":280.98284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":281.43846875,"end":282.95721875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.27784375000005,"end":294.55034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":294.71909375,"end":306.19409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.17409375,"end":299.46096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":306.73409375,"end":315.25596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":307.08846875,"end":307.13909375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":315.54284375000003,"end":316.67346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.07846875,"end":321.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":322.59659375,"end":357.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":358.06784375,"end":377.00159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.00159375000004,"end":391.24409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":391.39596875,"end":396.35721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":396.74534375,"end":400.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":401.65596875,"end":403.96784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":403.96784375000004,"end":405.23346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.77346875,"end":414.78471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":415.34159375,"end":419.62784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":418.88534375,"end":423.01971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.03284375000004,"end":420.20159375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":10.323,"end":23.513,"text":"今年3月27日,本席在教育委員會質詢文化部史哲部長時,部長很明確地表達新聞有價、媒體溢價是世界各國都是現在進行式,"},{"start":24.153,"end":45.002,"text":"而且,文化部所輔導的北市報業工會也好,雜誌工會,他們都認同要積極推動媒體溢價法,又或者要設立培育第4權韌性特別基金。所以我要請問次長,就是你是否同樣也支持新聞有價,或者認同台灣要設置媒體溢價法?次長。"},{"start":47.717,"end":72.137,"text":"謝謝委員隨選,那有關新聞有價這個部分沒有問題,行政院跟跨部會參與的包括數位部、文化部通常會都認為新聞有價,這個是完全沒有問題的。但是不是要用媒體議價法這個路線,目前行政院並沒有確認,而且世界各國也不是都走媒體議價法,媒體議價法在世界各國是少數,多數還是走那個所謂的著作權、著作理解權。"},{"start":73.951,"end":73.991,"text":"蘇慧卿議員"},{"start":94.753,"end":114.061,"text":"我的明定就是數位發展部就是主責機關。那我想歷經這個9個月的等待跟不連續的屆期,那這一次的會期我又再度的提案。那在這個9個月當中,我想各國的腳步是持續在前進。像是印尼,它已經這個簽署法令,就是"},{"start":117.082,"end":142.335,"text":"要求數位平台應付費才能使用媒體內容而最致力於將歐盟的著作臨階權概念內國法化的法國當然至今無法有效地對於數位平台做出規範可是面對數位平台的楊鳳英偉他無奈地也只能一次次地開罰那我想台灣"},{"start":144.048,"end":163.726,"text":"就如同您說的,每個部位其實都認同新聞有價,可是至今我們還是不清楚主責單位到底是哪裡。討論了三年,還在澳洲的專法的模式,或者是歐盟的著作臨接權的模式在那邊搖擺不定。"},{"start":167.248,"end":186.497,"text":"國內學者已經說得非常明白,立法是確保媒體與平台公平競爭的唯一方法,新設專法是最好的方式。歐盟著作凌接犬的模式恐怕不是值得學習的方式。"},{"start":188.418,"end":208.851,"text":"成功大學法律系的許教授,他就採取著作凝結權模式的法國為例。用法國的狀況來看,數位平台還是作用不對等的市場跟協商方式,拒絕與媒體進行透明、客觀、公開、誠信的協商。"},{"start":209.531,"end":226.538,"text":"那最終你還是要仰賴所謂的競爭委員會的介入才可以發揮著作凝結權的功效。所以換句話說,如果達到實質有效的媒體議價,要求平台告知所謂的評估報酬等必要的資訊,"},{"start":227.458,"end":241.6,"text":"那而且在協商不成的時候要由仲裁委員會出面那並指定獨立監管人來進行後續的管理跟執行那這些都是必要的措施所以請教次長你認同這樣的說法嗎?"},{"start":242.799,"end":263.77,"text":"是,跟委員報告,其實委員剛有提到,這個議題在行政院的層級裡面也討論了3年。那所以其實跟著現在科技的進步,其實包含美國,包含歐盟,他們已經不是只有討論媒體溢價這個部分。現在最重要的概念是AI的資料探勘有沒有使用到媒體資料庫。那上個禮拜,"},{"start":265.211,"end":294.173,"text":"英國的金融時報剛剛跟OpenAI簽署了資料庫的授權也就是說當AI在進行語言學習使用新聞出版內容的時候它是怎麼有價的那去年底的時候紐約時報對不起美聯社也同樣簽署了一年一千萬美金的授權給OpenAI所以現在西方各國其實注目的是新聞內容怎麼樣保護起來不被所謂的AI大型平台"},{"start":294.853,"end":321.161,"text":"因為如果按照委員剛剛提示的澳洲模式的話不管是澳洲或者是紐西蘭或者是加拿大很清楚的看到目前他們所有的立法只有抓到Google一家所以所謂的強制一家法很可能也只會抓到Google一家但是現在有太多的AI平台在使用語言學習的時候很有機會讓我們的新聞出版因為新聞出版反映了各個時代的精確語言內容"},{"start":322.677,"end":350.944,"text":"那好,你剛剛提到Google,Google 3年3億數位共融基金到底能不能當作是所謂媒體溢價法的替代方案喔?那臺大的那個新聞所的教授林肇政有指出,他說Google的數位共融基金喔,他第一年有獲得補助的23個提案申請當中,雖然有17家新聞媒體跟民間的媒體,網路媒體,還有另外5家的科技公司跟一個大學系所,換句話說,"},{"start":352.364,"end":376.574,"text":"Google的這個數位共榮基金實際上它是補償新聞著作權和補償新聞著作權的損失無關。就是說長期使用新聞媒體的內容卻為付費的這個問題仍舊存在,沒有獲得解決。所以次長你如果說,照您剛剛說的,那你如何評價Google的數位共榮基金?"},{"start":377.254,"end":399.594,"text":"教育部的立場我們從來不認為3億的共榮基金會跟媒體溢價法有關係,那是Google針對所謂的新聞產業進行所謂的新創或使用科技的一筆基金,那個跟媒體溢價沒有關聯。是,所以你也認為媒體有價,可是媒體有價未必要用媒體溢價法來處理。當然。"},{"start":401.707,"end":420.013,"text":"那你有想到更好的方式嗎?我們比較贊成和傾向的是因應時代的進步,著作凍結權會連媒體對AI做資料探勘使用的權利一併保障。好,這個還可以再來好好討論。好,謝謝次長。好,謝謝林金委員的質詢,接著我們陳金威委員質詢。"}]}},{"id":"152118","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152118","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db14757cee376486ef8e12ebde737ab3c1955be169921a0a717e0df1a73c0e558f55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:33:58 - 12:45:21","影片長度":"00:11:23","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員柯志恩等17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（詢答及處理，委員郭國文等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-10"},"duration":683,"end_time":"2024-05-02T12:45:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T12:33:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":937,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（12時34分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請部長。"],["主席：我們再請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：部長好。針對力暘集團在臺南七股小二甲的違法弊案，今天早上我召開了記者會，這個記者會就刑事偵查已經起訴，接下來審判的部分，當然各該被告在審判程序當中要去面對，但不是起訴完之後進入審判程序就沒有經濟部的事了，因為整起事件駭人聽聞、十分誇張，有兩件與經濟部權責有關係的事情，想要請教部長。關於古盛煇他們非法取得臺南七股電籌許可的這件事情，當初他們是透過小二甲禁令的但書，也就是在102年7月31日以前核定的109年6.5GW達標計畫，沒想到，法規明確地寫要在109年7月31日以前核定，他們搞到2021年時開了一個會議來幫他開後門。這個違法取得的電籌許可，經濟部要不要撤銷，請教部長？"],["王部長美花：第一個，對於相關的案件有沒有要撤銷，我們都會看有沒有相關的違法情形。"],["黃委員國昌：還要看多久？還要看多久？"],["王部長美花：因為……"],["黃委員國昌：這是你們的權責啊！"],["王部長美花：因為目前……"],["黃委員國昌：這個不就是你們的權責嗎？"],["王部長美花：第一個，我們還沒看到起訴書的全文，裡面有沒有什麼樣的……"],["黃委員國昌：第一個先等一下，到現在都已經多久了？"],["王部長美花：對，還沒有收到起訴書、還沒有收到。"],["黃委員國昌：檢察官會寄起訴書給你們嗎？檢察官會寄起訴書給你們嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們有向當事人要起訴書。"],["黃委員國昌：案件發生到現在，連這麼基本的事情都還沒有開始，曾文生答應我要啟動行政調查，啟動了嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們會啟動行政調查。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候要啟動？等到收到起訴書？如果2個月沒拿到起訴書就不會啟動，是這樣嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們當然要看起訴書的內容啊！"],["黃委員國昌：對，所以我說你什麼時候要啟動行政調查嘛！什麼時候要啟動行政調查？"],["王部長美花：我們收到起訴書，看到內容之後一定會。"],["黃委員國昌：所以檢察官會寄起訴書給你嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們有向當事人要起訴書。"],["黃委員國昌：如果站在當事人的立場，我永遠不給你起訴書啊！你就永遠都沒辦法啟動行政調查啊！有這種態度的嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們本來就要看起訴書啊！委員，不用看起訴書的內容嗎？還有起訴書所附的資料。"],["黃委員國昌：我這樣講好了，以目前所有公開的資訊，經濟部也好、能源署也好，你們手上有的事證、有的基礎資料，你們可以自己判斷的事情太多了，為什麼我敢這樣講？當初是怎麼開這個後門的？沒有基礎資料，你們敢開後門嗎？"],["王部長美花：委員不能這樣講，因為農委會……"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼不能夠這樣講？"],["王部長美花：你不能說我們是開後門，農委會在很短的時間做了改變，這個改變讓很多在處理中的案件要如何處理，所以包括跨部會去討論。"],["黃委員國昌：我就問一個最基本的問題就好了啦！2020年6.5GW達標計畫，法規上寫的是在要7月31日以前核定納入，你們在2021年9月15日開了一個會議，大家都串好了，在那個時候開後門。我現在依法論法，2021年9月15日是憑什麼開這個後門？你不用看起訴書啊！你按照你們當初做行政處分的基礎，你們當初是依照什麼作為依據，開了這個後門放古盛煇過關，這個與檢察官的起訴沒有關係喔！"],["王部長美花：報告委員，對於你講的開後門，我們是不能接受啦！"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，你用事實說服我嘛！"],["王部長美花：對，包括農委會都有一起來開會，我們這個是通案……"],["黃委員國昌：有符合法規嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們這個是通案在處理。"],["黃委員國昌：是，有符合法規嗎？"],["王部長美花：這本來就是一個農委會……"],["黃委員國昌：有符合法規嗎？"],["王部長美花：農委會本來就是突然改變它的政策，譬如符合109年6.5GW也不是法規，這個都是我們做能源政策不斷往前推動的情形。"],["黃委員國昌：等一下，推動小二甲上面的但書，所以部長的態度是這個規定是很彈性的，不用遵守也沒有關係，你的意思是這樣嗎？"],["王部長美花：也不是、也不是，我沒有這樣講。"],["黃委員國昌：我們看一下農業主管機關同意農地變更使用審查作業要點，這不是法規是什麼？這不是法規是什麼？"],["王部長美花：農變要點是相關的行政命令，沒有錯，這個我們同意。"],["黃委員國昌：行政命令不是法規嗎？"],["王部長美花：但是農委會原本的規定到後來沒有足夠的緩衝期，於是就改了規定，造成大家有很多的意見，事實上，這也是後來很多部會一起去討論的事情。"],["黃委員國昌：要不然你就改法規，有法規就要遵守，臺灣是不是法治國家？"],["王部長美花：但是……"],["黃委員國昌：按照你這樣的說法，法規定出來，大家手忙腳亂，所以可以不遵守法規，這是經濟部部長的態度嗎？"],["王部長美花：但是農委會這樣的規定，造成非常多的案件已經審到……"],["黃委員國昌：那就改法規啊！有改法規嗎？"],["王部長美花：沒有改法規，事實上……"],["黃委員國昌：既然沒有改法規，公務員要不要守法？"],["王部長美花：你用信賴原則，本來就要處理這種中間過渡期的案子，這個過渡期應該如何適用，也是大家非常透明一起開會做的決議。"],["黃委員國昌：大家非常透明去做的決定、大家非常透明去做的決定？"],["王部長美花：沒錯啊！我們都有做會議紀錄，難道這樣不透明嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：會議記錄透明？我秀給你看什麼叫透明？我去年開始追蹤這個案子，台灣民眾黨陳琬惠委員也在追蹤這個案子，那時候我針對力暘集團為什麼有辦法在2022年開始繞過小二甲的禁令，實在是百思不得其解，我查完了法規，找了三種例外的狀況，除非有一種我沒掌握到的，就是有納入6.5GW，所以我請陳委員向經濟部索資，把6.5GW納入的全部都要納進去嘛！部長說有公開透明嘛！有哪些被納進去，全國人民不能知道嗎？所以就向你們索資了！索資回來就是長得這個樣子，裡面有力暘集團的五天案場嗎？沒有、沒有，這個不是我捏造出來的喔！剛剛部長談到公開透明，我們就來談公開透明，去年就向你們要了，有哪些計畫納入6.5GW，給出來的資料殘破不堪，裡面有五天案場嗎？這是部長所說的公開透明嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們經濟部開的會議是針對通案來解決通案的問題，個案有沒有不恰當的偽造文書，我們當然也要譴責，但是不能說我們對通案的處理是違法的。"],["黃委員國昌：我問A你答B的技巧非常厲害。"],["王部長美花：我沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：剛剛你不是說公開透明嗎？我現在就跟你談公開透明啊！你們給委員的清單裡為什麼沒有五天案場？不是被你們合法地納入了嗎？既然合法地納入，為什麼上面沒有？在遮掩什麼？"],["王部長美花：我們沒有在遮掩。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有在遮掩，上面就沒有啊！我有說錯嗎？"],["李副署長君禮：報告，這個是當時在問的時候有提出來的申請案件。"],["黃委員國昌：停一下。"],["李副署長君禮：是。"],["黃委員國昌：力暘什麼時候申請的？"],["李副署長君禮：力暘是……"],["黃委員國昌：你再騙啊！力暘什麼時候申請的？"],["李副署長君禮：這個是當時已經併網的資料，我們都寫在這裡，我們那邊有說這是併網的資料……"],["黃委員國昌：對嘛！我就說嘛！你們到底在遮掩什麼嘛！我們要知道的是什麼？所有納入6.5GW的計畫有什麼？你們就提一個不完整的清單出來！現在主席站起來了，我只有兩個要求，今天部長不給答案，沒有關係！你就慢慢地等起訴書啊！如果我是當事人，我會給你起訴書才怪！我知道你要收到起訴書，法務部也不會給你起訴書，你要向當事人要，我是當事人就會把起訴書放在抽屜裡，我半年不給你，你就半年無法啟動行政調查，行政調查要多久，部長？"],["王部長美花：我們當然要看到起訴書的資料、內容、檢察官蒐集的資料，我們再來看……"],["黃委員國昌：所以需要多少的時間取得起訴書？你需要多少的時間取得起訴書？"],["王部長美花：我現在都還不知道檢察官的起訴書是否已經送出來了，委員，拿到檢察官的起訴書不應該是我們很好的一個起步嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：是啊！"],["王部長美花：難道我們不用看到起訴書嗎？"],["黃委員國昌：是啊！"],["王部長美花：那就對啦！所以我們當然是要看到起訴書。"],["黃委員國昌：本來你們自己行政調查的資料都在你們的檔案裡，目前所公開的資訊，包括法務部給所有新聞記者的，它只有把名字遮掉，把郭再欽改成郭○○，但是事實行為的態樣與目前公開連我都拿到的東西已經鉅細靡遺了。我只有兩個要求，第一個，違法的電籌許可撤銷；第二個，該送監察院彈劾的公務員，請送監察院彈劾，不要包庇，今天我的訴求只有這兩個。"],["王部長美花：我們會行政調查、我們會行政調查。"],["黃委員國昌：沒有關係，我們就靜靜等嘛！看經濟部的行政調查什麼時候要出來嘛！還是審判繼續拖，小古很夠力，臺南七股的案場是違法取得的，繼續幹、繼續賺都沒有關係，謝謝。"],["主席：請行政部門針對委員的提問向委員說明清楚，謝謝。","請王美惠委員、王美惠、王美惠委員不在現場。","登記發言的委員除不在場者外，其餘均已發言完畢，詢答結束。另有委員陳超明及牛煦庭所提書面質詢列入紀錄，刊登公報。書面質詢與委員質詢未及答復的部分，請相關單位於一週內以書面答復，並副知本委員會。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":510,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-10","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","賴士葆","邱議瑩","張智倫","郭國文","陳亭妃","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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開這個後門"},{"start":267.981,"end":276.071,"text":"你不用看起訴書啊,你按照你們當初做行政處分的基礎,你們當初是依照什麼樣當作依據,開了這個後門,放谷聖輝過關。"},{"start":281.087,"end":290.249,"text":"adequate檢察官的起訴沒有關係喔!跟委員報告齁你用講開我們是不能接受啦因為沒有關係啊你用事實說服我嘛對這個開這個會齁包括農委會都有一起來開會那我們這個是通案我們這個是通案在處理是有符合法規嗎"},{"start":301.032,"end":326.663,"text":"這個本來就是一個農委會本來就是突然的改變他的一個政策那所以我們去做改他不是比如說符合109人6.5億這個也不是法規那這個都是我們在做這個推動能源政策裡面不斷的在往前推進的一個情形推動小二甲後面上面的這個單書所以以部長的態度來講是說"},{"start":329.104,"end":340.614,"text":"這個規定是很彈性的,不用遵守也沒有關係,你的意思是這樣嗎?來看一下,農業主管機關同意農曆變更使用審查作業要點,這不是法規是什麼?這不是法規是什麼?"},{"start":344.749,"end":370.052,"text":"農變要點是相關的行政命令沒有錯。行政命令不是法規嗎?但是農委會原來的規定後來沒有足夠的緩衝期,然後就改了規定,那造成一些大家有很多的意見。所以這個事實上也是後來很多的部會大家一起去討論的事情。要不然你就改法規,有法規就要遵守。"},{"start":371.598,"end":372.499,"text":"但是...那就改法規啊!"},{"start":389.398,"end":392.98,"text":"有改法規嗎?所以沒有改法規公務員要不要守法?大家非常透明去做的決定。"},{"start":409.489,"end":410.95,"text":"我們都有做會議記錄,難道這樣不透明嗎?我去年開始在追蹤這個案子"},{"start":424.005,"end":438.927,"text":"台灣民眾黨陳婉蕙委員也在追蹤這個案子我那時候針對立洋集團為什麼有辦法在2022年開始繞過去小二甲的禁令我是百思不得其解"},{"start":440.031,"end":462.416,"text":"我查完了法規找了三種例外的狀況除非有一種我沒掌握到的就是有納入6.5GW所以我請陳委員跟經濟部所知把6.5GW納入的全部都要納進去嘛部長說有公開透明嘛有哪些被納進去全國人民不能知道嗎"},{"start":463.636,"end":488.794,"text":"所以就跟你們索資了。索資回來長了這個樣子。長了這個樣子,裡面有立揚集團的五天案場嗎?沒有。沒有。這不是我捏造出來的喔。剛部長談到公開透明,我們就來談公開透明。去年就跟你們要了。有哪些計畫納入這6.5GW,給出來的資料殘破不堪,裡面有五天案場嗎?"},{"start":489.995,"end":491.756,"text":"這是部長所說的公開透明嗎?我問A你答B的技巧非常厲害"},{"start":511.65,"end":531.344,"text":"我沒有...剛剛你不是說公開透明啊?啊我現在就跟你談公開透明啊?你們給委員的清單裡面為什麼沒有五天案場?不是被你們合法的納入了嗎?既然合法的納入為什麼上面沒有?在遮掩什麼?我們沒有在遮掩我...這個...沒有在遮掩上面就沒有啊?我有說錯嗎?報告這個是當時在問的時候當時有提出來的申請案件...等一下!立揚什麼時候申請的?"},{"start":541.582,"end":569.118,"text":"你再騙啊!利昂什麼時候申請的?這個是當時已經併網的資料,那我們都寫在這裡。那我們那個,那邊有說這是併網的資料。對嘛!所以我就說嘛!你們到底在遮掩什麼嘛!我們要知道的是什麼?所有納入6.5GW的計畫有什麼?你們就提一個不完整的清單出來。現在主席站起來了啦!現在主席站起來。我只有兩個要求。"},{"start":569.838,"end":590.407,"text":"部長今天不給答案沒有關係你就慢慢的等起訴書啊我如果是當事人我會給你起訴書才怪啊我知道你要收到起訴書法務部也不會給你起訴書你要跟當事人要我是當事人我就把起訴書放在抽屜裡我半年不給你你半年沒有辦法啟動行政調查行政調查要多久部長"},{"start":592.267,"end":620.809,"text":"我們當然要看到起訴書的資料內容檢察官收集的資料我們再來看所以你需要多少的時間取得起訴書我現在都還不知道檢察官的起訴書送出來沒有我想委員拿到檢察官的起訴書這不是應該我們很好的一個起步嗎當然到我們不用看到起訴書嗎那就對啦那所以我們當然是要看到起訴書你本來自己行政調查資料都在你們檔案裡"},{"start":622.113,"end":640.515,"text":"目前所公開的資訊,包括法務部給所有新聞記者,他只有把名字遮掉。他只有把名字遮掉,把郭再欽改成郭圈圈。但是事實行為的太陽,以目前公開連我都拿到的東西,已經鉅細靡遺了。"},{"start":642.506,"end":665.601,"text":"我只有兩個要求。第一個違法的電酬許可撤銷。第二個該送監察院彈劾的公務員請送監察院彈劾不要包屁。我今天的訴求只有這兩個。我們會行政調查。我們會行政調查。沒有關係我們就靜靜等嘛。看經濟部的行政調查什麼時候要出來嘛。還是審判繼續拖小股很夠力。"},{"start":667.517,"end":682.159,"text":""}]}},{"id":"152117","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152117","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1313e06d72d13415dd575e50b9cd8685a55be169921a0a71780b21b5ac2a9258a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊曜","委員發言時間":"12:31:45 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什麼?跟委員報告就是說第一步那麼離島的醫院幾乎都是燈塔型醫院所以我們先在離島有兩家醫院算不算因為離島的雖然它比如說澎湖好了澎湖有三家醫院當然主要醫院是兩家是我們三種的澎湖分院跟我們部立澎湖醫院為主另外還有一個惠民醫院"},{"start":62.483,"end":85.93,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":86.07,"end":86.711,"text":" bicyn Kwan-kwan"},{"start":116.05,"end":119.772,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案》案。"},{"start":133.36,"end":157.713,"text":"adequ?因為其實我大概也講一下就是說其實金門早期有兩家醫院然後後來合併成功了那澎湖經過了一段大概在2000年左右有一段時間因為兩院的合併出了一些問題所以也造成澎湖"},{"start":158.473,"end":159.774,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具"},{"start":179.053,"end":197.126,"text":"而兩家加起來又大概就是加起來大概就是1.3家醫院的量能所以把這兩家醫院這三家醫院列為燈塔醫院然後在有關住院"},{"start":200.529,"end":227.977,"text":" bicyn Kwan-yuen 跟委員報告我們在考慮燈塔型醫院的時候一定會除了考慮當地的人口變化之外也會考慮到他的交通動線那因為這個離島的交通不如本島的方便後送商都有一定的障礙所以我們一定會有特別的考慮"},{"start":230.983,"end":235.193,"text":"對,對,這個,欸,其實,其實就是不管是"},{"start":236.715,"end":263.439,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":264.673,"end":271.579,"text":"委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。案。"},{"start":293.03,"end":316.595,"text":"像衛福部近年推了很多項的醫療資源的整合相關政策,譬如說家庭醫師的整合照護計畫,然後分級醫療等等。那這個當然就是在推動上、成效上,其實"},{"start":319.574,"end":332.212,"text":"cellence Department and the Legislative Department of the Legislative Department of the Legislative Department of the Legislative Department of the Legislative Department of the Legislative Department of the Legislative Department of the Legislative Department"},{"start":333.346,"end":357.487,"text":"怎麼讓它落實?這兩個部分分級醫療本來就是一個比較困難去推動,因為我們的制度裡面民眾就醫是自由的。所以它並沒有說要先去看一個守門員,也就是家庭醫師,之後的話轉診才可以到醫院去。我們沒有這樣的制度,所以分級醫療本來在處理的時候就會比較困難。"},{"start":358.508,"end":377.616,"text":"至於剛剛委員有提到一個家庭醫師整合顯示,這個是我們逐步在推動而且會有成效的。這個現在我在澎湖觀察是做得不錯。對,這個成效會出來。而且現在是我們健保署這邊已經把這一個所謂的在宅醫療的範圍要擴大。"},{"start":379.957,"end":400.524,"text":" bicyn 會有更多的基層的醫師來投入,這部分對民眾尤其是我們老年化的社會來臨,對於一些失能、就醫不便的民眾是非常重要的,所以這個一定會是越來越好。"},{"start":403.206,"end":430.942,"text":"因為分級醫療就是有涉及轉診像我這邊的資料就是我們台灣原本的預定是兩千萬兩百萬人口有一家醫學中心那現在我算一算我們已經有二十二家醫學中心然後大概就是平均一百萬人就有一家那醫學中心太多"},{"start":432.262,"end":454.388,"text":"對於區議院的排擠,像剛剛部長也講嘛,就是我們民眾本來就可以自行選擇嘛。醫學中心多了,對區議院本身就有排擠。然後呢,就是醫學中心假如說未經轉診門診的部分,未經轉診門診的部分負擔費用是420,"},{"start":460.91,"end":461.391,"text":"對,是很高。"},{"start":491.33,"end":497.814,"text":" bicyn Kwan-kwan-kwan-kwan"},{"start":515.185,"end":522.953,"text":"我們也發現上轉下轉上的轉整的比例高可是呢上轉下"},{"start":525.339,"end":550.992,"text":"adequ..的案件其實並不常見。這個能不能也看有什麼方法可以。因為第一就是醫學中心的資源縱使現在已經設到22家他總是最終的守護者嘛。他的資源應該要給最需要的人。那另外一個就是"},{"start":552.773,"end":580.009,"text":""}]}},{"id":"152116","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152116","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1ea03b4cf694f7abc0cbbe991ada1931c55be169921a0a717f2cd038e26ea9a035ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:31:04 - 12:37:59","影片長度":"00:06:55","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答)【4月29日及5月2日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":415,"end_time":"2024-05-02T12:37:59+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T12:31:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":974,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時31分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生，有請教育部潘部長、國教署彭署長。"],["主席：好，請潘部長、彭署長。"],["潘部長文忠：鍾委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：今天就延續剛剛伍麗華委員，我們都想要讓偏鄉的學校留住、保住，但是關鍵不只是班級人數，還要留住幼兒才能保住偏鄉學校，我這邊提出的是10年的契約幼教師，給家長安心。我今天收到教育部的資料，應該是國教署做的，不過看起來怎麼答非所問，後來發現這是我在4月12日院長答詢時的承諾事項，結果你們的理解讓我今天不得不再說第3次。","我們來看一下這些資料，這裡七都為六都加新竹市，非七都的教保人員目前差額是一萬二千多人，如果換算成幼教師差了6,300人，這個我就不再贅述，這包含了公立、私立、非營利跟準公幼。那麼非公幼的業者集中在哪裡呢？我們很清楚是集中在七都。怎麼說？非七都的地方私立幼兒園比例其實不到5成，七都則是高達快7成。部長，為什麼比例差這麼多？你猜看看。"],["潘部長文忠：因為私立它們一定要招生、要經營、營運。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，人口規模，說得很對。所以就是因為偏鄉地區的人口規模，使得私立的、非公幼的沒有興趣去，對不對？造成的結果是不是這些偏鄉地區就要靠我們公幼、國小附幼來照顧，是不是這樣子？所以國小附幼對偏鄉的幼兒很重要，是不是？結果你問一下署長，我們現在非都的國小公幼有額滿嗎？偏鄉的國小公幼有額滿嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：委員所指的是招生額滿還是設置？"],["鍾委員佳濱：招生。招生跟設置都沒有滿，為什麼？因為國小附幼用的是幼教師，跟國小老師一樣4點就下課了，他沒有義務要負責課後照顧。所以家長將小孩送到國小附幼還有一個考量，要去找安親班，偏鄉都沒有私立的幼兒園了，哪裡去找安親班，對不對？所以現在是不是每個偏鄉的國小都有附幼？有沒有？沒有嘛，甚至有國小附幼的還不見得招的滿。署長你了解這個困境嗎？了解嗎？好。","所以得到什麼結果？因為連附幼都沒有，偏鄉的家長、年輕父母只好把孩子帶到工作地，到都市裡面的工作地點，然後用政府的補助，但是付的錢比較高，而且品質也不見得好。這種情況下他們最困擾的就是，如果留在偏鄉，就像剛剛講的代理老師經常在更換。怎麼解決？怎麼解決我上次有提過，是不是應該要盤點偏鄉或非山非市地區的家長到都會區跨區幼托的情況怎麼樣，去了解實際居住地的幼托需求，可不可以請署長做一下這個統計？可以嗎？去做個統計了解一下，可以嗎？"],["彭署長富源：沒問題。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長你可以對著麥克風說，點頭我還要讀你的肢體語言。"],["潘部長文忠：可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：接下來我們來看師資的問題，我上次有提過私幼、準公幼教保員起薪從過去2萬9,000提高到3萬，不錯啦，公幼、非營利教保員從3萬2,000到3萬8,000，但是你知道國小教師薪水多少嗎？國小教師起薪大概多少？4萬5,000元。但是就算如此，這些公立幼兒園的休假權益，還是沒辦法讓這些教保人員滿足，所以如果在偏鄉或是非山非市的地區，有沒有辦法找到跟國小教師一樣的幼教師資呢？我們看一下。國小教師的起薪是這樣子，這些是透過偏鄉的加給。我這邊就做一個釜底抽薪的建議，上次也提過，就是用十年契約的方式來進用幼教師跟教保員，因為根據幼照法第二十二條，依勞基法進用的人員，他可以做什麼？他可以做課後留園的照顧，跟國小教師不一樣，如果偏鄉的國小附幼，用公立教師的起薪打十年契約並用契約進用，那這些師培生、流浪教師還沒考上正式教師之前，他可以來這裡任教。部長，可不可以考慮這樣的評估？上次有問過。"],["潘部長文忠：我先回應委員前面說的附幼、公幼……"],["鍾委員佳濱：國小附幼。"],["潘部長文忠：其實這不只是學生，是家長負擔，所以推出新的制度就是公幼延托，包含暑假，緣起於他們負擔非常的重。這個其實有大幅的改變在於原來要雙托，所以不選擇公幼，這部分做了很大的改變，成效目前來講數量是擴大很多。至於剛才委員談到教保的問題，當然待遇部分教育部可以研議，但是一旦涉及到這個，可能還會跟行政院人事總處討論。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我為什麼問陳院長，因為這是行政院的層級，但我建議你們可以從非七都的偏鄉，像屏東縣的偏鄉先試辦。比如說屏東縣現在有3所國小要廢校，其中一個在高樹鄉，它是舊寮跟新豐，另外一個在內埔，是僑智國小要廢校，新豐也好、舊寮也好，你不管廢哪一個居民都不捨，所以我才說是不是其中一個改為另外一所專門的國小附幼，用交通車把全鄉5歲之前的幼兒集中在那裡，然後用十年契約給教師跟教保員一個穩定的工作，也能夠包含課後照顧。這些人如果試辦成功，未來可以擴大到其他非七都的偏鄉，可以去評估一下嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：我們來評估一下。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，那最後這個我就不再唸了，最後一個就是請看最後一頁，題目我秀一下，請你們在3個月內提出書面報告，盤點由偏鄉或是非山非市區域至都會區跨區托育的情況，實際評估其幼托需求，將偏鄉現在可能面臨廢校的這些國小，以設立國小附幼的方式，比照正式教師的薪水，並專案十年長約以勞基法進用幼教從業人員，請做一個評估，可以嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：好，可以。"],["鍾委員佳濱：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝鍾委員。","接下來鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員。","王美惠委員、王美惠委員、王美惠委員。","請范雲委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","盧縣一","萬美玲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","葉元之","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","吳春城","林倩綺","徐富癸","何欣純","黃仁","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","范雲","邱志偉","黃珊珊","劉建國"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修\n正草案」案、(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」\n案、( 三) 委員馬文君等17 人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1133901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.06846875,"end":12.29909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.864718750000002,"end":11.05034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.805343750000002,"end":14.222843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.222843750000003,"end":15.032843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.16346875,"end":20.669093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.871593750000002,"end":25.461593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.74846875,"end":52.680968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.77784375,"end":68.59409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.94846875,"end":73.67346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.23034375,"end":75.15846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.81659375000001,"end":79.14096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.51221875,"end":81.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.14471875000001,"end":82.66784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.15721875,"end":85.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.07221875,"end":90.80159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.10971875,"end":107.44034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.32471875,"end":92.91096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.54159375,"end":111.13596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.30471875,"end":114.54471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.13534375,"end":116.94096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.53159375000001,"end":118.84784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.94909375,"end":121.34534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.56909375000001,"end":121.86846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.32409375,"end":123.55596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":124.23096875,"end":125.49659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.50909375,"end":127.08284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.36971875,"end":130.05284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.64346875,"end":135.45284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.79034375,"end":143.55284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.68784375,"end":145.88159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.35409375,"end":149.94846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.97784375,"end":153.40784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.84659375,"end":155.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.59721875,"end":157.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.18346875,"end":161.08596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":161.35596875000002,"end":164.91659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":165.15284375000002,"end":179.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.71596875,"end":182.16284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.24721875,"end":183.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.58034375000003,"end":185.80784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.53346875000003,"end":201.58596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.93596875,"end":204.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":204.92721875,"end":205.04534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.33221875,"end":210.14159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.71534375000002,"end":215.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.82846875,"end":216.94221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":217.24596875,"end":226.02096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":226.45971875,"end":228.67034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":230.03721875000002,"end":231.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":232.56846875000002,"end":233.19284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":233.56409375,"end":242.50784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.04346875000002,"end":250.33784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":251.09721875000002,"end":253.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.79721875,"end":256.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":256.96971875,"end":260.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.86784375,"end":269.47409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.69346875,"end":271.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":271.92096875000004,"end":276.42659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":276.69659375000003,"end":284.66159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.93159375,"end":292.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.08659375,"end":292.55909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":292.71096875,"end":332.35034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":302.58284375,"end":302.85284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.31096875000003,"end":315.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":316.75784375,"end":317.16284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":331.74284375,"end":332.06346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":332.35034375000004,"end":381.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.97971875,"end":383.97096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.11034375,"end":411.73034375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":384.15659375,"end":384.94971875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01"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沒有嘛甚至有國小附幼的還不見得招得滿署長你瞭解這個困境嗎"},{"start":157.056,"end":158.296,"text":"理解嗎?"},{"start":158.296,"end":185.623,"text":"了解齁?好,那所以呢,結果得什麼結果?偏鄉的家長、年輕父母啊,他就背著怎麼樣?因為連父幼都沒有啦,他就照把孩子帶到他的工作地,到都市裡面,他工作地點,然後呢用這麼的補助,但是付的錢比較高,而且品質也不見得好。而且呢,這種情況下,他們最困擾的就是,如果留在偏鄉,剛養強的代理老師,經常在更換,那怎麼解決?怎麼解決?我剛剛上次有提過,往下看。"},{"start":186.607,"end":201.346,"text":"施論裡面要盤點一下先盤點偏鄉或非山非市的地區他們這些家長他們到都會地區跨區幼托的情況怎麼樣去了解一下實際居住地的幼托需求可不可以請署長做一下這個統計可以嗎去做個統計了解一下可以齁"},{"start":205.404,"end":228.342,"text":"沒問題啦,部長你可以對麥克風說啦,不然我點頭要讀你的治理語言。可以喔,好。那接下來呢,我們來看一下,那接下來就是私職的問題了。我上次有提過,我們私幼準公幼他的教保員的起薪從過去的兩萬九提到三萬,不錯啦。公幼非營利教保員從三萬二到三萬八,但是你知道我們國小教師薪水有多少嗎?國小教師起薪大概多少?"},{"start":232.625,"end":242.231,"text":"施行迄今之成效及檢討：一、邀請教育部列席就:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及公立學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及公立學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及公立學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及公立學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及公立學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及公立學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案"},{"start":260.919,"end":284.334,"text":"就是我們用10年契約的方式來禁用幼教師跟教保員因為根據我們幼照法第32條根據勞基法禁用的人員他可以做什麼他可以做課後留員的照顧他跟國小教師不一樣如果你的國小的偏鄉的國小副幼你用公立教師的起薪你跟他打10年的契約用契約禁用那麼這些失陪的失陪生"},{"start":285.074,"end":307.327,"text":"流浪教師還沒有考上正式教師之前他可以來這裡任教部長可不可以考慮一下這樣的一個評估上次有問過我先回應委員前面那個婦幼公幼對國小婦幼就那個因為我們考慮到其實這不只是學生啦是家長負擔啦對所以推出新的制度就是公幼延拖包含暑假那員級他們負擔非常的重"},{"start":308.968,"end":314.47,"text":"那這個其實有大幅的改變這個改變就是說原來他要雙托所以他不選擇公幼這個做了很大的改變成效為由請看目前來講數量是擴大很多那至於剛才委員談到教保的這個問題這個當然這個待遇教育部可以研議但是他如果一旦涉及到這個還可能會跟行政院的市總署要做一個討論我為什麼問陳院長"},{"start":334.218,"end":356.229,"text":"教育業是行政院的成績但我建議你們可以從非七都的偏鄉像屏東縣的偏鄉先試辦比如說屏東縣現在有三所國小要廢校了那其中要在高速它是一個舊樓舊樓跟新豐另外一個在內埔是喬治國小廢校那新豐也好舊樓也好你不管廢哪一個居民都願意都不捨"},{"start":357.009,"end":381.559,"text":"其中其中一個改為專門的另外一所的國小附幼那他用交通車把全鄉的五歲之前的幼兒集中在那裡然後用我們十年契約的教師、幼教師跟教保員來給他一個穩定的工作那也能夠包含課後照顧那這樣子的話這些人如果這個事辦成功未來可以擴大到其他非七都的這些偏鄉可以去評估一下嗎"},{"start":382.039,"end":410.65,"text":"委員我們來評估一下好那最後這個我就不再念了最後一個就是請看這一頁最後一頁就是說最後一頁就是這個題目呢我再秀一下就是可以三個月內提出一個書面報告盤點由偏鄉或非山非市的都到都會跨區托育的情況實際評估他的幼托需求來將現在偏鄉可能面臨廢校的這些國小你以國小復育的方式比照正式教育薪水以10年的長月勞教金用這樣的幼教成年人員請做一個評估可以嗎好謝謝"},{"start":412.253,"end":413.319,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育部列席"}]}},{"id":"152115","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152115","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1573dd57fff0b7bd9d575e50b9cd8685a55be169921a0a717620d634c767349af5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴惠員","委員發言時間":"12:25:33 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bicyn 此慢性處方簽在基層就醫的情形有增加。 bicyn 此慢性處方簽在基層就醫的情形有增加。"},{"start":173.336,"end":197.056,"text":"�"},{"start":197.476,"end":220.134,"text":"謝謝署長。我想這個漫遷的一個用藥的調整其實是在這一次就是整個那個疫情那個降級以後點植的這一個大家引起基層上的一個很大的一個恐慌我們有做到一個很好的一個益備也就是一個補償那針對的就是說我們的預算的一個預估不準確"},{"start":221.135,"end":248.2,"text":""},{"start":248.677,"end":269.889,"text":"�。"},{"start":269.889,"end":296.766,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":299.234,"end":300.66,"text":"電費的補貼目前是指?"},{"start":304.475,"end":311.137,"text":"在3月27號的時候,行政院有一個協商會議裡面,它目前是在那個部分是說列入明年的總額去協商。所以就表示是沒有的?"},{"start":330.486,"end":360.094,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":360.094,"end":360.114,"text":"謝謝賴委員"}]}},{"id":"152114","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152114","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1b0b047ef2c3c2807e12ebde737ab3c1955be169921a0a71795660381a021fc6f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張嘉郡","委員發言時間":"12:24:57 - 12:33:24","影片長度":"00:08:27","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員柯志恩等17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（詢答及處理，委員郭國文等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-10"},"duration":507,"end_time":"2024-05-02T12:33:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T12:24:57+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":887,"blocks":[["張委員嘉郡：（12時25分）主席，我想請部長。"],["主席：我們再請王部長。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長，對於本院的決議，應凍漲電價，經濟部是否已經準備好，就是不會遵守呢？"],["王部長美花：因為目前是按照電業法的規定，所以我們經濟部認為還是要按照法律規定執行相關的電價調整。"],["張委員嘉郡：不計任何代價、不願苦民所苦，就是不會遵守本院的決議，應該凍漲電價，是不是？"],["王部長美花：事實上，這次的電價調整有85%是由用電大戶負擔調漲的部分，如果凍漲電價反而會補貼到用電大戶、反而是一個更不平衡的情形。"],["張委員嘉郡：剛剛部長說要談法規，本席就與部長談一下電價審議委員會的規定，請問這次電價平均漲幅是多少呢？"],["王部長美花：我們這次全部加起來的漲幅應該是11%左右。"],["張委員嘉郡：11%左右？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["張委員嘉郡：以下的資源是來自於經濟部能源署有關電價審議的網頁，你可以看一下，在104年1月20日立法院決議事項的第三條寫著，設漲幅上限，半年調幅不得超過3%，全年累計調幅不得超過6%，這是在你們經濟部的網頁上公布的，請問經濟部有遵守這個條例嗎？"],["李副署長君禮：報告，這個是104年立法院的決議，正式入法是在106年的1月28日，立法之後就把這個權力交給電價審議委員會，由電價審議委員會來決定。"],["張委員嘉郡：你們想做的時候就說要遵守法規，你們不想遵守的時候就有非常多的理由。電業法第四十九條規定，費率是由主管機關核定公告，依照電業法第四十九條，電價審議結果出來之後，還是必須要經過經濟部的核定，所以過去才有連續凍漲啊！凍漲的時候不是都是依照電價公式計算出來的結果，而是經濟部政治決定的結果，所以經濟部不要再推給法律規定，因為第一，經濟部就未遵守3%的天花板規定；第二，經濟部有核定權，不是審議計算出來的結果就是最終結論，所以結論就是經濟部不願苦民所苦，一定要漲電價，是嗎？"],["李副署長君禮：報告委員，過去不管電價調整的……"],["張委員嘉郡：你是誰？"],["李副署長君禮：能源署副署長。"],["張委員嘉郡：好。"],["李副署長君禮：就是我們負責電價業務的執行……"],["張委員嘉郡：現在我問的是部長，我有請你上來嗎？"],["李副署長君禮：是。"],["王部長美花：報告委員，事實上，在我們電價審議時考慮的因素就包括照顧民生，所以過去幾次都是電價審議會決定最後要漲、不要漲或是漲百分之幾，然後報給……"],["張委員嘉郡：但你是有權力可以凍漲的啊！"],["王部長美花：沒有，事實上是電價審議會決議之後再報給經濟部做公告，所以都是電價審議會審議的結果。"],["張委員嘉郡：部長好幾次告訴我，因為國際上的天然氣價格大漲，所以我們台電才會虧損這麼多。部長可以看一下這個日韓指數的期貨價格，已經跌落到戰前的水準了，為什麼今年不漲電價還要大賠2,147億呢？"],["王部長美花：第一個，事實上，天然氣的部分有長約與現貨的部分。第二個……"],["張委員嘉郡：你覺得是我們買貴了嗎？"],["王部長美花：沒有、沒有，另外還有一個管道的天然氣，所以我不確定委員的這張圖是我們……"],["張委員嘉郡：這是日韓不靠輸氣管而是靠汽油輪的價格。"],["王部長美花：是。第二個……"],["張委員嘉郡：之前你說因為他們都有輸氣管，所以價格不一樣，現在這個是與臺灣條件相仿的，因此先前部長在2022年俄烏戰爭之後說我們買到比俄羅斯更便宜的天然氣，這個天然氣到哪裡去了？"],["王部長美花：那一次大家是問，如果我們不買俄羅斯而改買別的，別的是不是會比較貴，所以我們當時講的是中油公司向其他賣家買的天然氣沒有比俄羅斯貴，當時講的是這樣一個情境。後來這個……"],["張委員嘉郡：本席清楚期貨價格與你們的合約價格可能有所差異，但依照104年通過的電價審議委員會第六條，電價成本應該透明化，是不是請經濟部公布天然氣合約的價格，讓人民可以檢視，請問部長願意公布嗎？"],["王部長美花：這個是中油與外面廠商的相關合約，所以這個合約沒辦法，但是……"],["張委員嘉郡：是啊！中油是不是也歸你管的啊？"],["王部長美花：中油賣給台電或賣給……"],["張委員嘉郡：什麼時候可以公布？中油賣給台電比較貴，上次就已經說過了，所以中油到底買多少錢？"],["王部長美花：中油賣給台電、賣給工業、賣給家戶的價格，我們都可以讓大家知道，沒有問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：這是中油的部分，是不是應該把天然氣的合約的價格公布出來？因為我記得公布購買合約並不是沒有先例，在2012年時經濟部就曾主動公布台電的購煤合約，當時為什麼會公布，部長記得嗎？部長知道嗎？"],["王部長美花：那個時候我不曉得，我想可以……"],["張委員嘉郡：因為台電在2008年被舉發購買了昂貴的煤炭，而且簽了長約，當時監察院要調查，購煤的合約竟然失竊了，我不知道你記不記得？那時候有個新聞報導，監察院要調查這個購煤的合約，結果購煤的合約就失竊了，所以我也希望部長是不是能儘速公布天然氣的合約，而且在公布之前也要保障天然氣合約的安全，否則真的是非常地危險，怎麼一要調查，這個契約就遺失了。最後，本席也想問，究竟要漲電價是因為法規的關係，或是經濟部不願意苦民所苦？"],["王部長美花：事實上我也講過，這次的調漲有85%其實是由大的用戶承擔，所以……"],["張委員嘉郡：為什麼不凍漲民生電價呢？為什麼不凍漲？假設85%都是漲大的用戶，為什麼民生用電不能凍漲呢？"],["王部長美花：我們現在的民生用戶漲幅本來就比較小，而且……"],["張委員嘉郡：這是可以凍漲的嘛！影響也不大，為什麼不凍漲呢？"],["王部長美花：我們的成本都遠大於電價，所以這是台電經營上的問題。"],["張委員嘉郡：本席要呼籲部長，既然你說85%影響的都是用電大戶，剩下的這些民生用電，這些可以說是庶民百姓，是不是能夠凍漲呢？關於這一點，我也呼籲部長一定要認真考慮。"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員，但是現在一般電價的賣價本來就已經與成本乖離很多了，其實我們漲的部分都很少。"],["張委員嘉郡：這個又要說到你錯誤的能源政策，今天可能時間也不足啦！謝謝部長。"],["主席：謝謝。","請牛煦庭委員、牛煦庭、牛煦庭委員不在現場。","請何欣純委員、何欣純、何欣純委員不在現場。","請顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒、顏寬恒委員不在現場。","請羅廷瑋委員、羅廷瑋、羅廷瑋委員不在現場。","請羅明才委員、羅明才、羅明才委員不在現場。","請麥玉珍、麥玉珍委員、麥玉珍委員不在現場。","請林倩綺委員、林倩綺、林倩綺委員不在現場。","請林德福委員、林德福、林德福委員不在現場。","請陳超明委員、陳超明、陳超明委員不在現場。","請黃國昌委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":510,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-10","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","賴士葆","邱議瑩","張智倫","郭國文","陳亭妃","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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長服上線半年條服不得超過三趴,全年累計條服不得超過六趴,這個是在你們經濟部的網頁之上所公佈的。所以呢這個條例請問一下經濟部有遵守嗎?"},{"start":120.331,"end":143.297,"text":"報告這個是104年立法院的決議那正式入法是在106年的1月28日那立法之後就把這個權利交給電價審議委員會由電價審議委員會來決定那你們想做的時候就說要遵守法規你們不想遵守的時候就非常多的理由電業法第49條規定費率是由主管機關核定公告的"},{"start":147.978,"end":156.302,"text":"那這個依照電業法49條電價審議結果出來之後還是必須要經過經濟部的核定所以過去才有連續動漲啊動漲的時候不是都是依照電價公式計算出來的結果而是經濟部政治決定的結果所以這個經濟部不要再推給法律規定因為第一"},{"start":173.431,"end":198.391,"text":" bicy,經濟部就未遵守這三趴的天花板規定。第二,經濟部有核定權,不是審議計算出來的結果就是最終結論。所以結論就是經濟部不願苦民所苦,一定要漲電價,是嗎?報告委員,過去不管電價,要調整的能源署副署長,就是我們負責電價的...我現在問的是部長,我有請你上來嗎?"},{"start":200.782,"end":219.656,"text":"我跟委員報告事實上在我們電價審議的時候考慮的因素包括照顧民生那所以事實上過去這幾次都是電價審議會決定最後是要漲還是不要漲或者幾%但是你是有權利可以動賬的呀沒有但是因為都是在電價審議會決議了他只是報給這個經濟部來做公告所以事實上都是由電價審議會審議的結果"},{"start":228.689,"end":246.596,"text":"部長好幾次告訴我說國際上的天然氣價格就是因為國際上的天然氣價格大漲所以呢我們台電才會虧損這麼多那其實呢我看這個部長你可以看一下這個日韓指數的期貨價格就是"},{"start":247.875,"end":266.015,"text":""},{"start":266.035,"end":279.798,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。」案。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。」案。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。案。"},{"start":295.662,"end":298.223,"text":"欸那個那一次大家問的是說我們不買俄羅斯那買別的別的會不會比較貴所以我們當時講的是我們中油公司去跟別的這個賣的賣家買的這個氣沒有比俄羅斯的貴講的是這樣的一個情形那後來這個那等於是清楚期貨價格跟你們的合約價格可能是有所差異"},{"start":319.27,"end":339.065,"text":"但依照104年通過的這個電價審議委員會時的條件第六條那時候說電價成本應該透明化那是不是請經濟部公佈一下這個天然氣合約的價格讓人民可以檢視請問部長願意公佈嗎?"},{"start":342.548,"end":347.994,"text":"這個相關的合約是中油跟外面的廠商,那這個合約沒辦法,但是中油賣給台電或者賣給…中油賣給台電比較貴,這個上次已經講過了,那中油到底買多少錢?"},{"start":358.183,"end":362.005,"text":"中共賣給台電、賣給這個工業、賣給家戶的,這個我們都可以讓大家知道,沒有問題。就是中油的部分,這個天然氣的合約是不是應該把價格公佈出來?因為我記得公佈這個購買合約並不是沒有先例,在2012年經濟部就曾主動公佈台電的購煤合約,那當時為什麼公佈?部長記得嗎?部長知道嗎?"},{"start":383.177,"end":387.179,"text":"嗯,那個時候我不曉得。對,我想,我想,所以...因為那時,台客在2008年被舉發購買了昂貴的煤炭,而且簽了長約,當時監察院要調查,然後購煤的合約竟然失竊了,我不知道你..."},{"start":398.806,"end":408.529,"text":"你記不記得就是那時候有個新聞就說欸經財院要調查這個購煤的合約結果這個購煤的合約呢就失竊了所以呢我也希望說部長我們是不是儘速也公佈一下我們天然氣的合約而且也要在這個公佈之前要保障我們這個天然氣合約的安全否則真的是非常的危險怎麼會一要調查這個契約就遺失了所以呢最後呢本席也想要問就是說"},{"start":427.854,"end":437.195,"text":"究竟要漲電價,那就是是因為法規的關係還是經濟部不願意苦民所苦?"},{"start":438.066,"end":447.316,"text":"而事實上我有講過我們這一次的調漲85%其實是大的用戶在承擔這個漲。那為什麼不動漲民生電價呢?如果假設85%都是漲這個大的用戶的話為什麼另外那些民生用電不能動漲呢?我們現在的漲幅本來就比較小。"},{"start":460.589,"end":487.135,"text":"而且我們的成本我們的成本都遠大於這個電價所以這個是台中經營上的問題所以本席就是想要呼籲一下部長既然你說85%影響的都是用電大戶剩下的這些民生用電這些可以說是庶民百姓是不是能夠動長呢這一點我也呼籲部長一定要認真考慮"},{"start":488.943,"end":502.602,"text":"謝謝委員但是現在的這個一般的電價的賣給他的已經跟成本本來就乖離很多了所以我們其實這個又說到你錯誤的能源政策所以我今天可能時間也不足啦謝謝謝謝部長"}]}},{"id":"152113","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152113","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db183904a612dd8e2140cbbe991ada1931c55be169921a0a717903534be09e65b475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"伍麗華Saidhai 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Tahovecahe委員：部長好，首先我要先謝謝召委今天排偏鄉條例，對我來講很重要，但是在開始以前，我想要先謝謝部長這些年給予原住民學校的幫助。您在2016年7月上任後第一個參訪的學校應該是我的學校──地磨兒國小，當時我有跟您提到，原住民學校在推動民族教育碰到一個瓶頸，也就是我們的課程跟我們的環境是沒有辦法搭配，因為我們的校舍大概都是民國六十幾年的這種建築物，所以當時有跟您提議說可不可以來補助我們這些推動民族教育的學校，能夠去改善我們文化的環境，非常謝謝您當時就推了新校園運動，今天所有參觀原住民族學校的人，都發現跟10年前大大的不一樣，所以這個部分我要特別謝謝你。"],["潘部長文忠：也謝謝委員給我們支持。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：第二個，當時我也跟您提到說，是不是可以由政府委託一些所謂辦理課程發展中心，雖然後來變成課程協作中心，站在輔導的立場，但是我也要特別謝謝這些年他們陪伴了非常多的實驗學校以及一般原住民的重點學校。","第三個就是實驗學校也在您的任內遍地開花，目前國中小已經來到40所，當然我會希望未來教育部要重視，因為12之後我們要面臨所謂的何去何從，我們一直說要變成原住民族學校，當然因為共識不足，大家還沒有辦法去真正定義什麼叫原住民族學校，但是在我的定義就是以族群語言為中心的一個民族學校，希望在不久的將來我們也能夠通過。","在這裡我要談到偏鄉，願景工程有針對偏鄉做一個調查，83%的偏鄉家長最在乎老師是否有教學熱誠，第二就是願意陪伴學生。確實在我任教這麼多年當中，我自己也在偏鄉服務過，我覺得有熱誠、願意陪伴學生是一個好老師非常重要的條件。那為什麼我要特別這樣子談？因為我們談到偏鄉教育條例，最重要的就是解決偏鄉缺乏師資的問題，留不住老師的問題，所以我看到目前你們報告上面的資料，活躍儲備教師將近3萬人，我不曉得你們有沒有去了解這將近3萬的儲備教師有多少比例的第一志願是到偏鄉服務，但是至少我看到很多的團體，像TFT就是以去偏鄉為他們主要的職志。偏鄉教育條例在當年我們要修法的時候，其實比較重要的是希望把這些久任的代理教師如何讓他轉正，因為最難的就是地方縣市政府的教甄，但是當時有一個問題就是沒有共識，到底所謂的久任是6年就好？8年就好？還是12年就好？我覺得我們都沒有意見，就算是12年，只要能夠轉正，我相信這些有熱誠、願意待在偏鄉的教師，一定是願意的，大家也會願意去成全。留在偏鄉多久，有人說6年就可以轉到一般教師，會不會全部跑光？其實就算他轉正之後，把他框住、永遠留在偏鄉，我想也會獲得大家一致的認同，所以我很希望這部分在偏鄉教育條例能夠去處理。","另一個部分就是我在2021年有針對偏鄉教育條例的限制，就是在第十二條，它有兩個東西，一個是15人的數額，當時我的修正版本是希望改正為人數稀少，因為少子化之後15人很難達到，但是那時候沒有修正通過。第二個就是它裡面有提到要合法建物，部長應該知道，我們很多偏鄉分班、分校哪有什麼合法建物，連地都不合法，所以這個部分我希望再次拿出來，希望能夠得到支持並修正通過，讓偏鄉能夠有更好的師資、更好的環境，留住更多的偏鄉學校，而不是處於廢校，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：好，謝謝，委員剛剛幾項提議我會請國教署用這段時間再去整理相關意見，委員剛剛提到有一點，我覺得我們政策上在上次的條例有建置了，就是那些很有熱誠的老師，當時在條例裡面是用專聘老師，不是直指代課老師或符合資格但未必取得教師證的，而是用專聘老師，只是這些年等於說……"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：我們希望再更進一步，因為像宜蘭，我知道有一些地方政府其實用地方的處理，那我覺得中央要更進步。"],["潘部長文忠：這幾年我們大量開專任教師，我想委員在學校最了解，這幾年每年大約5,000位，但是我相信怎麼樣學校都還是需要有代理，專聘教師我會請國教署應該接續把這個部分再擴大，他們就會有機會成為正式教師。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：對，我們要讓他更進一步轉正，就算他永遠待在偏鄉，我覺得也都是大家同意的，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：好，了解，謝謝。"],["伍麗華Saidhai Tahovecahe委員：只要我們的法令可以支持。謝謝部長，謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請林德福委員、林德福委員、林德福委員。","顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員、顏寬恒委員。","請鍾佳濱委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","盧縣一","萬美玲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","葉元之","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","吳春城","林倩綺","徐富癸","何欣純","黃仁","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","范雲","邱志偉","黃珊珊","劉建國"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修\n正草案」案、(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」\n案、( 三) 委員馬文君等17 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謝謝委員剛才的幾項提議我想會請國教署因為這段時間也在整理這些相關意見那委員剛才提到有一點我覺得我們在政策上在上次的條例有把它建制了就是說那些很有熱忱的老師我們當時在條例裡面是用專聘老師不是只指說他就是待課老師或符合資格但未必取得教師證的用專聘老師只是這個"},{"start":329.417,"end":339.847,"text":"這幾年我們希望再更進一步因為像宜蘭我知道有些地方政府他其實用地方的處理那我覺得中央要更進步這幾年我們大量開專任教室我想委員在座就了解這幾年每年大概五千位啦但是我相信怎麼樣學校都還會有這一種需要有代理就專聘教師我想我會請國教署應該接一續把這個部分再擴大"},{"start":354.801,"end":355.362,"text":"發展條例第18條文修正草案案"}]}},{"id":"152112","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152112","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db16b90ebcada23c8fbd575e50b9cd8685a55be169921a0a717d553ae1fc4f0545b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳瑩","委員發言時間":"12:15:11 - 12:25:29","影片長度":"00:10:18","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員王育敏等19人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【以上議案，如經復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-14"},"duration":618,"end_time":"2024-05-02T12:25:29+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T12:15:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":1032,"blocks":[["陳委員瑩：（12時15分）好，謝謝，請石署長。"],["主席：好請石署長。"],["陳委員瑩：看部長笑得很開心。"],["石署長崇良：陳委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：署長好，今天討論的主題是如何保障醫護的權益，大家聚焦在點值的部分，我今天想要質詢的內容也跟點值有關，我想關心的是健保總額分配的六個區的分區問題。在問這個問題之前，我還是再次的強調，所有離島地區，其實已經有兩千多位原住民設籍在那邊，所以離島醫療資源的問題我也持續的關心。每年健保總額在分配預算的時候，衛福部都會考量六個區當中的人口數、收入情況、年齡分佈還有醫療資源等等，所以很多的影響因素在進行統計，最後再進行預算分配的討論，一般是這樣。","依照這六個區，我們一起來看一下這六個分區奇怪的地方，因為金門跟連江他們跟大台北地區環境型態有相當大的差異，如果你們是按照專業的評估之後，覺得離島應該是歸在臺北區，我們也只能尊重啦！但同樣是離島的澎湖卻歸在高屏區，這樣的分法非常的怪異。後來我去追根究柢了解了一下，我才知道原來這六個區的分區，是依照你們組織法裡面的六個業務組，然後直接用六個業務組的模式做縣市分區，直接做預算的分配。","我知道你們對於偏鄉跟離島，有很多支付模式調整的專案，讓點數加成，或者是讓點值保障的計畫，但是最基礎的縣市分區有問題，還是需要好好的來檢討啦！因為過去你們在總額分配的時候，通常不會去考慮交通障礙導致醫療成本太高的問題，但是交通問題卻是影響離島醫療成本一個最大的因素。影響層面包括醫療設備、物資，甚至在醫護的人力、人才等等，讓金門連江醫療院所的點值跟臺北市一樣，怎麼看還是覺得很奇怪，不曉得署長對這件事情有什麼看法？"],["石署長崇良：跟委員報告，我們總額的分配是這樣，先有一個大總額，就是全國下年度的總額之後，按照我們現在六個分區的RS值去分配。這個RS值主要是可以考慮到人口的變化情形，跟我們開辦之初醫療的利用情形，去做一個調校。如果把金門或是金門連江獨立一個總額的時候，因為它的人口數不利，所以不見得會對當地分配到的總額比較好。","第二個當然也會考慮到整體醫療的使用情形，還有後送，經常需要習慣後送就醫的地方流動，會大家一起考慮。所以我們的建議還是仍然歸在臺北區，但是我們會有一些特別的保障措施，包含過去委員指導，讓我們重新去思考。從今年5月1日開始，三個離島醫院住院的部分都是加成30%，讓它能夠落實發展在地醫療，提升病人能夠留在離島當地，醫療所需要的一些成本。"],["陳委員瑩：因為在這個之前，我想今天提出這樣的質詢，我們也有跟離島各個醫院討論過，今天我也在這裡表達他們的期待，在分配上可以讓金門、連江、澎湖自己一區，就是離島自己一區。我想大家所考量的點，可能站的角度不太一樣，我也希望你們先都不要太抗拒這件事情，我們大家來試算一下，看看他們在實務的推動上遇到什麼樣的困難，為什麼會希望獨立一區出來，我們就好好的試算。如果你們的分區在實務進行上都是優於他們的期待，那算給他們看，如果他們的要求是合理的，大家算一算，其實數字會說話嘛。所以我覺得大家先不要太抗拒這件事情，就大家來算一算，是不是現在的六區在未來有沒有機會改成七個區，這個部分可以試算，然後研議一下，再來跟我們辦公室說明。"],["石署長崇良：我們除了試算之後，我們也會去……，其實過去我們看起來，他的平均點值都是優於臺北區的醫院，就是離島的醫院，但是我們也瞭解離島的人口有限，不像其他的區還會移動成長，大概就是比較固定，所以我們現在也在研究燈塔型的醫院，給予一個自己的額度。其實那個概念就已經類似像一個獨立總額的概念，小總額給他們，所以已經也有這樣的思考在裡面，我們會一併來做檢討。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝署長。接下來請教部長，署長可以先回座。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["陳委員瑩：部長，今天我要再跟您討論一下健保補助的問題，這是目前關於經濟弱勢的原住民長者補助健保費的資料，我們看一下，低收入戶的全部都有補助，這個部分已經沒有問題。但是我們再看一下中低收入戶的部分，中低收入戶的原住民依照社會救助法的模式，全部補助二分之一。70歲以上的原住民，另外的二分之一則是依照你們的老人福利法，把預算編列二分之一補起來。我們再看一下，55歲到64歲原住民也是一樣，中低收入戶全部補助二分之一，另外的二分之一在我上一屆的提案也謝謝你們有補起來了。","現在問題來了，我們看一下65歲到69歲的中低收入原住民長者，在部分縣市仍然還是要付二分之一，在這些縣市的原住民長者也覺得很奇怪，怎麼過了65歲卻要繳二分之一的保費，他會覺得怎麼年紀越大繳的越多，補助反而越少了，請教部長對這樣的狀況……"],["薛部長瑞元：我知道二分之一是縣市補助、二分之一中央補助。"],["陳委員瑩：對，沒錯。"],["薛部長瑞元：所以自己不用繳啦！"],["陳委員瑩：什麼？"],["薛部長瑞元：他自己沒有繳。"],["陳委員瑩：不是，有部分的縣市他們沒有……"],["薛部長瑞元：這我們再瞭解一下。"],["陳委員瑩：沒有補助，我講的是這個。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員的意思是希望全國一致嘛！"],["陳委員瑩：對啦！全國一致也很好，我今天本來想如果針對原住民的部分，你們要先處理，那很符合我的想法，我就是原住民選區的代表，今天我這樣的質詢，你們有注意到其他縣市有這樣的狀況，那我們就統一，大家一起看看，能夠全部統一補齊也更好。"],["薛部長瑞元：剛剛您問石署長是不是離島要成為自己獨立的區，我要跟委員報告的是這樣對離島不見得有利。"],["陳委員瑩：比較不好？"],["薛部長瑞元：是，第一個，現在會有這種訴求應該就是金門、馬祖，因為他們跟臺北區同一區，最近點值是比較下來的，所以他們覺得不放心。但是我們可以藉由一些離島的方案來提高點數……"],["陳委員瑩：對，另外再做調整。"],["薛部長瑞元：對、對，這樣子是比較好，要不然你如果給他一個總額，當到了觀光季節，一大堆外來客衝進來，你還是只能用那一塊總額，這反而是對他們不利。"],["陳委員瑩：瞭解，就是後續他們的部分可以再做調整？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，會有一些對他們比較優惠的方案來做處理。"],["陳委員瑩：好，這個部分我們拭目以待看怎麼調，好不好？謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝。"],["陳委員瑩：我剛剛第二個問題是希望你們再研議，一個月內跟我說明。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，我會請他們做處理。"],["陳委員瑩：雖然下個月你可能不在，但是……"],["薛部長瑞元：沒關係，我會交代下去。"],["陳委員瑩：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請賴委員惠員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-14","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","黃秀芳","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","劉建國","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","賴士葆","李彥秀","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","賴惠員","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；二、委員蘇清\n泉等27人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康\n保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.3590937499999995,"end":9.025343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.700343750000002,"end":11.117843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.547843750000002,"end":16.48409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.973468750000002,"end":32.19471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":32.88659375,"end":75.19221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.76596875,"end":80.35596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":80.77784375,"end":83.74784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":84.15284375,"end":86.75159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":87.15659375,"end":88.08471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":88.25346875000001,"end":104.57159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":104.95971875000001,"end":113.76846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":114.25784375,"end":185.87534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":185.87534375,"end":218.41034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":218.74784375000002,"end":272.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":270.90846875,"end":271.75221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":272.03909375,"end":342.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKE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bicynny 他們的人口數收入情況年齡分布還有醫療資源等等那所以很多的這個影響因素在進行統計的時候呢最後再進行預算分配的討論一般是這樣嗎依照這個六個區我們來看一下其實這個六個區的分區我們一起來看一下這個奇怪的地方"},{"start":87.108,"end":104.062,"text":" bicyn Man 與 Lien Chiang 與臺北地區的環境與形態有相當大的差異。如果你們是按照專業的評估之後覺得離島應該是歸在臺北區,我們也只能尊重。"},{"start":105.023,"end":131.42,"text":"但是同樣離島的澎湖它是歸在這個高屏區這樣的分法是非常的怪異那後來呢我去追根究柢了解了一下我才知道說原來六個區的分區是依照你們組織法裡面的六個業務組然後是直接用六個業務組的模式做縣市分區然後直接做這個預算的分配"},{"start":133.181,"end":159.513,"text":"我知道你們對於這個偏鄉跟離島有很多這個支付模式調整的這個專案讓點數加成或者讓這個點值保障一的計畫但是最基礎的這個縣市分區有問題還是需要好好的來檢討因為過去有你們在總額分配的時候通常不會去考慮到交通障礙導致醫療成本太高這樣的一個問題"},{"start":161.554,"end":185.659,"text":"但是交通問題卻是影響離島醫療成本一個最大的因素。那影響的層面包括醫療設備還有物資甚至在醫護的人力人才等等。讓金門連江醫院所的醫院醫療院所的這個點子跟臺北市一樣怎麼看就還是覺得很奇怪我不曉得署長對這件事情有什麼看法。"},{"start":186.279,"end":209.975,"text":"二、跟委員報告這個我們總額的分配是這樣我們先有一個大總額就是全國夏年度的總額之後會按照我們現在的六個分區的RS值去分配這個RS值就是主要是可以考慮到人口的這個變化情形跟我們開辦之初的那個時候醫療的利用情形去做一個調教啦"},{"start":210.515,"end":219.82,"text":" bicyn Muen Lien Chiang等19人擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案»案。 bicyn Muen Lien Chiang等19人擬具"},{"start":225.663,"end":252.964,"text":" bicy 第二,當然也會考慮到整個醫療的使用情形,那麼它還有後送,經常需要習慣要後送就醫的地方的流動,會大家一起考慮。所以我們的建議還是說,仍然是歸在臺北區,但是我們會有特別的一些保障措施,那麼包含在過去委員指導讓我們重新去思考,那麼也從今年5月1號開始,"},{"start":253.905,"end":271.896,"text":" bicyn Kwan- 三個離島的醫院的住院部分都是加成30%來讓他能夠落實去發展在地醫療提升病人能夠留在離島當地來醫療他所需要的一些成本。"},{"start":272.056,"end":293.729,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":293.729,"end":322.602,"text":"�"},{"start":322.602,"end":346.659,"text":" bicyn 如果他們的要求是合理的,那大家算一算,其實數字會說話嘛。所以我覺得大家就先不要太抗拒這件事情,就大家來算一算。那是不是說在未來現在的六區有沒有機會改成七個區。那這個部分可以就是試算然後研議一下再來跟我們辦公室說明。"},{"start":347.039,"end":374.531,"text":"�"},{"start":374.531,"end":400.367,"text":"�"},{"start":401.136,"end":401.336,"text":"國民黨黨團擬具"},{"start":421.391,"end":445.35,"text":"�"},{"start":445.35,"end":470.316,"text":"�"},{"start":470.376,"end":496.737,"text":" bicyn 他們也覺得很奇怪說怎麼過了65歲他卻要繳二分之一的這個保費他會覺得說怎麼年紀越大繳得越多補助反而越少了所以部長這樣子的狀況沒有注意到嗎?知道的話是二分之一是縣市補助二分之一中央補助對沒錯沒錯自己不用繳自己沒有說要繳不是有部分的縣市他們沒有"},{"start":497.844,"end":500.466,"text":" bicyn 今天如果這樣的質詢你們有注意到其他縣市有這樣的狀況那我們就統一大家一起看看"},{"start":526.988,"end":544.701,"text":"ymm�把它全部統一補齊也更好。有一件事情我跟委員報告一下。剛剛您問石書長的那件事情。欸我聽得不太清楚。就是說你剛剛詢問石書長那個是不是離島要成為自己獨立一個區域。我要跟委員報告是說這樣對離島不見得有利。"},{"start":547.743,"end":573.974,"text":"δή一個就是說現在會有這種訴求應該就是那個金門麻竹啦因為他們跟那個台北區同一區嘛最近點子是比較下來的所以他們覺得說不放心啦但是我們可以藉由一些離島的方案來提高他的點數另外再做調整對對對這樣子是比較好要不然的話你如果給他一個總和齁你遇到那個觀光季節齁"},{"start":577.016,"end":581.344,"text":"一大堆外來客充一米,你還是只能用那一塊總額。"},{"start":583.956,"end":608.331,"text":"閱讀。閱讀。這反而是對他們不利。所以就是後續有可能他們的部分會再做,可以再做調整。對。這會有一些對他們比較優惠的方案來做處理。是。好。好。那這個部分我們拭目以待吧。看怎麼調這樣子好不好。好。好。好。謝謝。好。謝謝。那那個我剛剛第二個問題就是希望你們在演繹然後一個月內跟我說明。好。我會請他們做一個處理。"},{"start":610.953,"end":613.518,"text":"好,雖然下個月你可能不在但是他們還是要講。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152111","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152111","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db121ccc1aba04af8b0e12ebde737ab3c1955be169921a0a71705aa06a9cd4d58f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳培瑜","委員發言時間":"12:19:42 - 12:24:56","影片長度":"00:05:14","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員柯志恩等17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（詢答及處理，委員郭國文等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-10"},"duration":314,"end_time":"2024-05-02T12:24:56+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T12:19:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":854,"blocks":[["陳委員培瑜：（12時19分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部部長，謝謝。"],["主席：我們再請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["陳委員培瑜：部長，午安。快速地與部長討論一下，雖然我們是在教育文化委員會，但是我們認識非常非常多在第一線工作的家長，部長，你應該都知道，臺灣有非常多的中小企業承擔著臺灣經濟發展的責任，對嗎？"],["王部長美花：是的、是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們從家長的角度來看一些事情，這是目前國科會的科學技術統計要覽，我們發現未滿200人的中小企業整體研發經費，細節的部分就不講了，整個加起來其實不到10%。再加上經濟部的統計，中小企業有163萬家，在全國的全體企業占了98.9%，也就是說，有非常多的家長或是關心教育的人都是在中小企業工作，但是中小企業的穩定發展研發經費占比卻不高。部長，你認為這個有什麼問題？或是他們其實面臨了什麼樣的困境？"],["王部長美花：在中小企業中又有服務業及製造業，在製造業的部分，中小企業無論是人力也好、相關的經費也好，確實都比較有限，占比就會比較低一點。"],["陳委員培瑜：對，沒錯，部長，你講到很重要的問題。我們再來看另外一個，2月23日經濟日報的報導，中小企業發展條例與產創條例提供了研發租稅優惠，規定大致是相似的，在臺灣中小企業發展條例的研發門檻相對比較低，鼓勵中小企業去申請，這個報導說以臺北市為例，在2022年有73件適用中小企業研發投資減抵，我們來看這件事情，只看臺北市有73件，你認為如果類推到全臺灣，適用中小企業研發投資抵減的可能會有幾件？目前你們手上有相關數字嗎？"],["王部長美花：你說明一下，好不好？"],["何署長晉滄：報告委員，在這次的修法之後，我們預計每年申請的家數會有320件。"],["陳委員培瑜：預計三百多件？"],["何署長晉滄：目前大概是304件。"],["陳委員培瑜：但是我剛剛也給你一個數字，全臺灣有多少萬家中小企業，這個比例聽起來還是相對低，所以我們這邊想要建議，是否有機會為了整體經濟發展的永續，穩定中小企業相關人力及產能的發展，也提高中小企業研發的誘因，經濟部與財政部有沒有機會共同討論，進一步放寬中小企業研發租稅優惠的門檻？"],["王部長美花：我補充報告一下，事實上，中小企業的條例有研發，但是產創條例也有。"],["陳委員培瑜：是，沒錯。"],["王部長美花：剛才講的只有中小企業發展條例的件數，如果將產創的部分加起來，事實上件數應該是有1倍以上。第二個……"],["陳委員培瑜：但相對也還是低，部長。"],["王部長美花：是、是。"],["陳委員培瑜：而且如同你說的，你也知道他們的資源是不足的。"],["王部長美花：中小企業要提升的部分有很多個面向，有時候是商業模式、有時候是研發的部分。"],["陳委員培瑜：我相信部長聽起來是非常清楚，但我想是否有機會列為重要交接事宜，也就是把更多中小企業的聲音聽進去？當臺灣在追求科技發展的時候，絕對不要忘了臺灣中小企業絕對是重要的經濟發展命脈，對嗎？"],["王部長美花：是的、是的。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長。接下來我們要討論關於員工教育訓練的部分，我們也想建議是否有機會納入相關法規來討論？員工教育訓練的費用可不可以、有沒有機會列為抵減項目？怎麼說呢？我們來看一下，我們認為員工教育訓練的費用在某種程度上幾乎可以等同研究發展支出的成本，怎麼說？譬如所有中小企業都面臨數位轉型、淨零轉型的部分，而他們的員工也必須搭配所有相關專業知能，但是如果相關的員工教育訓練成本作為壓垮中小企業的最後一根稻草，我覺得大家都不樂見，所以有沒有機會由經濟部及財政部共同研商討論，在2、3個月之內給我們辦公室相關的報告，有沒有機會讓員工教育訓練成本納入作為抵減優惠的項目？"],["王部長美花：關於這個部分，目前無論是中小企業或是比較大的企業，員工教育訓練的費用都可以納為費用做稅務的抵減，所以沒有特別針對教育的訓練費用另外再加乘減除。"],["陳委員培瑜：如同我剛剛說的，面對AI數位轉型有非常多中小企業都非常焦慮、非常緊張，大家也都想要支持自己的員工，把員工的專業增能帶回企業、協助企業增長，但是如同你剛剛所說的，確實沒有在相關法規裡面，所以我們辦公室才會請部長積極列為重要交接事宜，甚至開啟相關討論，可以嗎？"],["王部長美花：是、是、是。"],["陳委員培瑜：好，謝謝部長。"],["王部長美花：好。"],["陳委員培瑜：我們辦公室也會持續追蹤相關的議題，謝謝。"],["王部長美花：好，謝謝。"],["陳委員培瑜：謝謝部長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請張嘉郡委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":510,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-10","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","賴士葆","邱議瑩","張智倫","郭國文","陳亭妃","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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.33,"text":"關於員工教育訓練的部分,我們也想要建議有沒有機會納入相關法規來討論員工教育訓練的費用可不可以有沒有機會列為抵檢項目?我們認為員工教育訓練的費用"},{"start":233.171,"end":260.479,"text":"adequate to the cost of research and development.例如說所有中小企業都在面臨數位轉型、淨零轉型這個部分而他們的員工也必須搭配所有相關專業職能但是如果相關的員工教育訓練成本作為壓垮中小企業的最後一根稻草我覺得大家都不樂見所以有沒有機會由經濟部還有財政部這邊共同研商討論在兩三個月之內給我們辦公室相關的報告有沒有機會讓員工教育訓練這個成本納入作為抵減的優惠"},{"start":265.441,"end":282.668,"text":"這個部分因為目前就是不管是中小企業或者是比較大的企業那員工教育的訓練的費用都可以納為費用來做這個稅務的抵解所以沒有特別針對教育的訓練費用另外再加成減除"},{"start":283.328,"end":307.548,"text":"那如同我剛剛說的面對AI數位轉型我覺得非常多中小企業都非常焦慮跟緊張大家也都想要支持自己的員工然後把員工的專業增能帶回企業協助企業增長所以剛剛如同您說的確實沒有在相關法規裡面所以我們辦公室才會請部長來積極列為重要交接事宜甚至開啟相關討論可以嗎是是好那就謝謝部長那我們辦公室也會再持續追蹤相關的議題謝謝好謝謝部長謝謝主席謝謝"},{"start":313.104,"end":313.776,"text":"接下來我們請張家俊委員"}]}},{"id":"152110","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152110","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1ff385691be91af7a0cbbe991ada1931c55be169921a0a717189f078c6ac0d1bb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃仁","委員發言時間":"12:19:25 - 12:24:36","影片長度":"00:05:11","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答)【4月29日及5月2日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":311,"end_time":"2024-05-02T12:24:36+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T12:19:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":939,"blocks":[["黃委員仁：（12時19分）謝謝主席，有請部長。"],["主席：好，我們請潘部長，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：黃委員好。"],["黃委員仁：部長，我一直百思不解、一直想要問的是什麼？我們過去到現在一直說要進入到原住民的實驗學校，所謂實驗學校的定義在哪裡，你回答一下。"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，我們本來就有實驗教育三法，當初整個在推動時，確實有很多部落的學校希望原住民文化語言這些能夠在課程當中有所突破，所以現在他們也可以適用這樣的法。"],["黃委員仁：好，部長，我們現在是用一個對談的方式，中華民國來到臺灣是民國幾年？原住民在過去到現在，是在中華民國之前還是之後？"],["潘部長文忠：原住民當然更早了。"],["黃委員仁：好，請問一下，我們要用實驗的方式嗎？我們用這樣的講法好了，要用實驗的方式嗎？因為應該是你們漢人要學習我們原住民的文化，這是一個尊重，但是現在要用實驗？我們反觀國際上這些國家對原住民的尊重，例如紐西蘭的毛利人，紐西蘭設立了屬於他們的專屬，因為他們尊重原住民文化的定義跟精神。今天我看了這個，根本就是把我們原住民當實驗看待的角色，過去日本時代的時候是以番治番，現在的教育是以番治政，為什麼老是要用這種態度對待我們原住民的教育？一直以來，我們希望、呼籲我們有專屬、獨立的一個原住民完全中學，原因就在這裡。第二個，十二年國民教育，本來就應該照著我們國民教育的這些教育政策來遵行，但是對原住民專屬的獨立學校、完全中學也應予以尊重。我們看一看國教署給本席你們過去所推動的資料，目前原民實驗學校小學共有38所，中學僅有5所，到了高中只剩下1所，銜接不起來嘛！為什麼？國小既然已經有38所的實驗學校，到了國民中學也應該是38所，到了高中也應該是38所，為什麼到了後面只剩下1所？所以這就是我常常談的原住民族教育法要趕快通過，本席在上任之後已經草擬了這些草案，包括原住民族教育法、原住民族學校法，原住民族教育法已經通過了，學校法現在要等著，為什麼？因為它的施行細則在裡面，但是我請部長要特別重視，原住民的教育一定要予以尊重，完全中學從幼稚園、國小、國中、高中，應該受保障，因為它有16族在裡面，要彼此尊重它的教育跟文化的延續，這就是我們一直強調的，我們不是被開刀實踐出來的原住民，我們應該要尊重原住民的最根本，這才是真正要去執行的，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，原住民族學校法部分，中央主責機關是原民會，教育部之前負責的是原住民族教育法，原住民族教育法已經修定公布了。"],["黃委員仁：所以我跟你講，請放手給原民會去做嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：永遠放手啊！我們就不會去拉它了！"],["黃委員仁：不要老是卡關在你們這個地方，老是實驗、實驗，實驗什麼！"],["潘部長文忠：沒有啦，委員，那個實驗教育沒有誣衊任何人，那個是一種理念的學校，現在我們部落的學校……"],["黃委員仁：應該改掉實驗，好不好？應該改掉實驗，我們不是被實驗……"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，這個原住民族學校法是由原民會在主政，如果原民會繼續推動，然後儘快發布，我想學校、中央跟地方一定會全力支持。"],["黃委員仁：好。"],["主席：好，謝謝兩位。","接下來我們請伍麗華委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","盧縣一","萬美玲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","葉元之","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","吳春城","林倩綺","徐富癸","何欣純","黃仁","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","范雲","邱志偉","黃珊珊","劉建國"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修\n正草案」案、(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」\n案、( 三) 委員馬文君等17 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},{"start":277.069,"end":286.113,"text":"發展條例第八條條文修正草案案 案。 委員柯志恩等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案 案。 委員柯志恩等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案 案。 委員柯志恩等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案 案。 委員柯志恩等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案 案。 委員柯志恩等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正�"},{"start":310.401,"end":310.755,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育部列席"}]}},{"id":"152109","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152109","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db103fdf4a9baaf8b64e12ebde737ab3c1955be169921a0a7172a968d603343e0df5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳冠廷","委員發言時間":"12:14:11 - 12:19:40","影片長度":"00:05:29","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員柯志恩等17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（詢答及處理，委員郭國文等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-10"},"duration":329,"end_time":"2024-05-02T12:19:40+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T12:14:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":836,"blocks":[["陳委員冠廷：（12時14分）麻煩部長。"],["主席：我們再請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["陳委員冠廷：部長好。部長，今天質詢的部分可能也要麻煩你做為重要的交接事項，主要是針對基礎設施的部分。昨天我們在國防外交委員會針對國土辦提到一些重點基礎建設、基礎設施的韌性，我們回顧這八年來，在2017年有全臺大停電的事件，因為包商的關係導致天然氣供氣中斷機組的運作；在2020年3月11日就不是所謂高科技上的危害，很簡單的、非常lowtech，桃園機場的電纜遭到包商人員意外剪斷，整個機場就停電了。從這兩個案例來看，無論是發電廠或機場等重要的基礎設施，不要說是資安防護了，我們並沒有講到那邊，只講最簡單的門禁的檢查、器具的使用、目標地的存在，也就是為什麼你在那個時間點會在那個地方，不應該在授權的時間點出現在那個地方就應該被禁止，我們沒有把這個東西做得比較完善。我不是要苛責國安單位，因為無所不防就等於是什麼都沒有防備，你還是要按照它的優先順序去做防範。","再來，供電當然是最重要的，供水、天然氣還是有一個優先的方案出來，當然經濟部是主管單位，所以昨天我問國土辦的時候，國土辦給我的回答是他們只有十幾個人力而已，預算也是數百萬元而已，等於說它沒有辦法做一個完整的執行，因為它是幕僚單位，所以執行的部分就等於是由各個部門處理。未來的基礎設施是非常重要的，特別是接下來的部長是由業界出身，當然知道只要某個小時斷電所造成的影響有多大，如果斷電是因為跳電或自然災害就無可厚非，變成要做應變機制，也就是要做減災的部分，但是在防範的部分已經出現多次都是以非常低科技的方式，也就是我們想像不到卻又是極端直接暴力的方式就可以造成我們的損害，所以我們必須要求這個部分與國安單位實質地沙盤推演。我要請教國土辦與經濟部針對這件事情有沒有直接演練過？大概是幾次？不用給我正確數字，只要告訴我大概是多少次？"],["王部長美花：這個部分確實是有演練，因為經濟部負責的關鍵基礎設施，水、電及煉油廠等等，所以經濟部都有參與關鍵基礎設施韌性及安全的演練，我們也會確實執行這個部分。"],["陳委員冠廷：是，謝謝部長。我希望接下來針對發電廠、天然氣接收站、煉油廠及自來水廠都必須要有完整的演練。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：希望讓下一個部長不要在特定時間，而是隨時都必須做好準備，不要先講好哪個時間點，把那個狀態直接就給演練的狀況，也就是不要事先演練安排，而是做好突發事件準備的這種演練。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：我希望能做好這個部分。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["陳委員冠廷：因為要攻擊臺灣的基礎建設、基礎設施所造成的影響層面是太多、太大了，我們也不希望因為這個東西的存在，而國土辦這個幕僚單位的預算就是這麼少，變成它也只能做政策上的宣示，執行上還是要由各部會去做。"],["王部長美花：會，各部會會有，現在相關的保二也會進駐，這個都會一起把它做得更好。"],["陳委員冠廷：對，如果這個東西配合錯假亂訊息的話，將會影響到社會各個層面。我們剛剛講天然氣廠、我們剛剛講煉油廠，現在我就看到很多鄉親都在傳一些假訊息，像是大爆炸會對我們影響多大，這類錯假亂訊息不斷在宣傳，所以我還是強調因應錯假亂訊息的最好方式就是做好自己的韌性準備，在做好自己的韌性準備之後也是要透過不同的媒體管道、社群媒體管道告訴大家我們已經做好準備。有些人說怎麼準備、怎麼巡守都是屬於機密，但是不一定，為什麼要這麼講？當你做好韌性上的準備，並且透過正確的管道向民眾傳遞的話，同時也是一個震懾效應，這個震懾的意義在於讓有志於破壞我國基礎建設的人、團體，甚至是國家勢力知道我們真的有認真對待這件事情，謝謝部長。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["主席：謝謝。","接下來請陳培瑜委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":510,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-10","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","賴士葆","邱議瑩","張智倫","郭國文","陳亭妃","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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tech的就是桃園機場的電纜遭到包商的人員意外的剪斷那整個機場就停電了所以從這兩個案例來看我可以看到說我們不管是發電廠機場這些重要的基礎設施來說的話"},{"start":72.93,"end":93.531,"text":"不要說是資安防護我們沒有講到那邊喔講到是最簡單的門禁的檢查器具的使用目標地的存在就是說你為什麼會在那個時間點在那個地方不應該在授權的時間點出現在那個地方就應該被禁止這個東西我們沒有做得比較完善那我們不是要苛責這個國安單位因為"},{"start":95.913,"end":111.101,"text":""},{"start":111.201,"end":133.666,"text":"天然氣我們還是有一個優先的方案出來那當然經濟部是主管單位所以我昨天問國土辦的時候國土辦給我的回答是說主要他們大概也只有十幾十幾個人人力而已那他們的預算大概也是數百萬元而已等於說他沒有辦法做一個完整的執行嘛因為他是幕僚單位所以執行的部分就等於是由各個部門去處理"},{"start":134.666,"end":160.695,"text":"對,這件事情我是很重要的這是一個未來的基礎設施是非常重要的那特別是我們接下來的部長應該就是葉建樹來的他當然知道說只要某一個小時的斷電它造成的影響是有多大那有的時候斷電是因為跳電或者是一些自然的災害那無可厚非嘛那就變成要做應變機制就是做減災的部分可是在防範的部分已經出現多次都是用非常低科技的方式就是我們想像"},{"start":161.015,"end":176.8,"text":""},{"start":177.18,"end":186.542,"text":"幾次?大概是幾次?不用給我正確數字,大概只要給我大概是多少?是,那這個部分的演練確實有,那因為經濟部負責的關鍵基礎設施水、電,還有這個煉油廠等等,所以經濟部都有參與這樣的一個關鍵基礎設施韌性以及安全的演練,那這個部分確實我們會來執行。謝謝部長,我希望說接下來針對這個發電廠、天然氣節奏站、煉油廠、自來水廠,"},{"start":204.646,"end":232.166,"text":"這個必須要完整的有一個演練希望讓下一個部長他能夠不經應該是說不要在特定時間就是隨時都必須要做好準備甚至是有不要先講好哪一個時間點把那個situation就是直接把那個狀態就直接給演練的狀況就是不要先事先演練安排而是做好突發事件的做好準備的這種演練這個部分我是希望可以做好這個部分因為特別"},{"start":233.287,"end":248.52,"text":"因為要攻擊台灣的基礎建設基礎設施它所造成的影響層面是太多太大了那我們也不希望說因為這個東西的存在國土辦的這個幕僚單位的預算就是這麼少"},{"start":249.141,"end":265.767,"text":"所以變成是說他也只能做政策上面的宣示啦,執行上面還是由各部會要去做。各部會會有,那現在的相關的寶二的這個相關的這個也會進來進駐,那這個會一起來把它做得更好。"},{"start":266.327,"end":280.663,"text":"對,而且這個東西如果配合錯假亂訊息的話,那個影響層面是到社會各個層面的,特別我們剛剛講煉油廠,我們剛剛講天然氣廠,那我現在就看到很多我們的鄉親又在傳一些假訊息,說我那個這大暴躁的話會對這個我們的影響多大,開始這種"},{"start":283.286,"end":303.844,"text":"錯假斷訊又在不斷的在宣傳所以我還是強調說因應錯假斷訊的最好方式就是做好自己的任性準備那做好自己的任性準備之後也是要透過各個不同的媒體管道社群媒體管道告訴大家說我們做好準備那有些人說這個是機密上面啊什麼我們怎麼樣準備怎麼樣尋守這個機密但不一定為什麼要這麼講"},{"start":304.825,"end":324.541,"text":"當你做好任性上面的準備並且透過正確的管道跟民眾傳遞的話,同時也是一個震懾效應。這個震懾的意義在於說讓有致於破壞我國基礎建設的人、團體甚至是國家勢力知道說我們真的有把這件事情認真對待。謝謝部長。是。謝謝。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152108","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152108","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db12fd30c3e7b9ecf3c0cbbe991ada1931c55be169921a0a717fc304913c2098b145ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"12:13:34 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12:19:24","影片長度":"00:05:50","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答)【4月29日及5月2日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":350,"end_time":"2024-05-02T12:19:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T12:13:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":898,"blocks":[["何委員欣純：（12時13分）謝謝召委柯委員。我們請部長。"],["主席：請部長。謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["何委員欣純：部長你好，520即將到了，謝謝你啦！也辛苦你了，這麼多年擔任教育部長，擔子真的很重。雖然你有功勞、有苦勞，但是也還有需要再精進的地方。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員，是。"],["何委員欣純：所以我們希望520新部長上任的時候，您跟他應該要無縫的接軌，現在正在辦理交接嘛，對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：是。"],["何委員欣純：我們一向很關心的就是剛剛除了非山非市的一些國中小學校，事實上，現在年輕家長更希望政府重視的是什麼？幼教、托育！我今天很高興看到媒體頭版講到我們的公幼寒暑假的延長照顧要達到百分之百的目標，雖然現在可能只有88%的園所有辦理，但是最重要的是，月收費僅收2,000塊，這對家長來講當然是一大福音，那也是政府在經費的補助上給年輕家長最大的一個利多，雖然一定要支持，但是我要問的是什麼？我問的是教保人員人力的調度，教育部國教署有針對全國各縣市公幼的教保人員的人力調度做盤點跟要求地方政府補足嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，這原來也是受委員長期關注啦，即降低班級的生師比，公共化優先嘛，尤其已經往下在進行，因為這個確實會減輕教保同仁的負擔。"],["何委員欣純：是。"],["潘部長文忠：至於延托的部分，我們目前會有一個配套的機制，如果說這個學校的規模比較大，人力真的有困難，我們會以加置可以協助課後照顧的這個概念的方式來做。"],["何委員欣純：可以加置一個協助課後照顧的人力。"],["潘部長文忠：它會由園所提出這個需求。"],["何委員欣純：園所提出需求，中央來支持？那增加的這一名人力的專業、能力方面有規範嗎？一定要規範，對不對？"],["潘部長文忠：因為它就是課後照顧的概念，其資格會放得比較寬一些。"],["何委員欣純：OK。"],["潘部長文忠：他不是另一個教保人員。"],["何委員欣純：但不是沒有規範啊！"],["潘部長文忠：當然有規範，因為要照顧這些小朋友還是要有專業，只是他不是用教保人員的那個唯一的規範。"],["何委員欣純：所以你會有一個補充人力的補助計畫？"],["潘部長文忠：對、對。因為是在今年暑假後啟動，我們開始試行後發現家長的反應也很熱絡。"],["何委員欣純：很好。"],["潘部長文忠：當然這個也減輕他很大的負擔，要不然以前照算一個暑假大概要負擔一萬多，現在把它降為兩千。"],["何委員欣純：所以我說這對家長來講、對年輕家庭來講是一大利多。"],["潘部長文忠：對，那現在也就會考慮到園方，因為教保同仁本來就很辛苦，如果園方評估確有需求，它會提出來增置；如果說園方人力還可以，那屬於課後照顧的部分，我們會給老師這邊教保人員的鐘點費用，這個由他們來評估。"],["何委員欣純：這個由他們來評估、由他們來提出需求，中央會協助補助。"],["潘部長文忠：對、對，就是有一個彈性嘛！"],["何委員欣純：那這個是要長治久安，就是說制度性的一個規定。"],["潘部長文忠：委員，教育部推的方案都不是一次啦！"],["何委員欣純：很多地方政府會認為說教育部可能一開始補助個一年、兩年，並沒有承諾長年，有的地方政府會有不同的解讀嘛，所以為了要讓我們年輕家長安心，我們這個制度就是長長久久地會推動下去，中央也會支持，要求地方政府，大家一起合作。"],["潘部長文忠：對，那是一個制度，不是一次性。"],["何委員欣純：好。接著是公幼教保人員的人力問題，我就要問關於我們公幼的教保人員，我相信產業公會昨天也有提出現行的公幼教保人員很難休特休，因為第一個，我們師生比又要降低，人力顯得不足，又必須要關照很多很多的方方面面，請問一下，你們有配套嗎？雖然教育部的回答是推給勞動部要去做勞檢，但是我覺得這不是只有勞動部勞檢的問題，除了要去勞檢、要去要求，教育部是不是另外也可以從正面的鼓勵去支持，如何讓這些公幼的人力、教保人員特休的權益可以兼顧？"],["潘部長文忠：我應該這樣子說，目前的配比，至於說一個園方內老師的……譬如說他請休假……"],["何委員欣純：人力的調度。"],["潘部長文忠：這一定會有人力調度的問題，如果在人力調度上不行，但他真的有加班比如額外服務的事實，那應該來支持的是這種額外給老師的補貼，因為這個制度大概要這樣設計才有辦法啦！"],["何委員欣純：對啊，所以我說教育部要跟勞動部一起好好來尋求一個解方啦，不是只有裁罰、勞檢，我覺得教育部要正向的去支持、去解決這個問題，才能夠確保教保人員的權益嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：委員，如果說現在有這種現象，我們覺得應該彙整一下，然後也辦理這些相關的指引跟規範。"],["何委員欣純：是，那我也進一步的拜託，不是只有公幼教保人員的權益，再進一步地，非營利還有準公共化幼兒園教保人員特休的權益等等，我們也應該要去關注、去支持，而且要去鼓勵，配套也要做到，好不好？謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：好。謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝欣純委員。","接下來我們請黃仁委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","盧縣一","萬美玲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","葉元之","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","吳春城","林倩綺","徐富癸","何欣純","黃仁","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","范雲","邱志偉","黃珊珊","劉建國"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修\n正草案」案、(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」\n案、( 三) 委員馬文君等17 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對對對那這個加上這一名人力他的專業、他的能力這個有規範嗎?一定要規範嗎?那個會比,因為他就是客戶照顧的概念他的資格會放得較寬一些OK,但是他不是沒有規範啊"},{"start":154.731,"end":159.752,"text":"竟然有規範 因為要照顧這些小朋友還是很專業可是他不是用教保人員的那個唯一的規範所以你會有一個補充人力的這樣子的一個輔助計畫因為在今年的暑假後啟動嘛我們開始試行後發現家長啊這個反應也很熱絡當然這個也減輕他很大的負擔以前照算一個月一個暑假大概要負擔一萬多現在把它降為兩千"},{"start":184.438,"end":186.319,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4"},{"start":209.054,"end":233.73,"text":"那這個是要長治久安就是說制度性的一個規定那個教育部推的方案都不是一次啦很多地方政府會認為說教育部可能一開始補助的一年兩年沒有承諾長年那有的地方政府會有不同的解讀嘛所以呢為了要讓我們年輕家長安心那我們這個制度就是長長久久會推動下去中央也會支持要求地方政府來大家一起合作嘛那是一個制度不是一次性"},{"start":235.312,"end":257.668,"text":"接著因為公幼教保人員的人力的問題我就要問我們公幼的教保人員昨天我相信產業公會有提出現行公幼的教保人員很難修特修因為第一個我們師生比又要降低人力顯得不足又必須要關照很多很多的方方面面請問一下我們有配套嗎"},{"start":259.35,"end":280.525,"text":"雖然教育部的回答是推給勞動部要去做勞檢但是我覺得這不是只有勞動部勞檢的問題我們除了要去勞檢要去要求我們另外是不是教育部從正面的鼓勵也可以去支持如何讓我們這些公幼的這個人力的教保人員的特休的權益可以兼顧我應該這樣子說現在目前的配比"},{"start":284.788,"end":290.212,"text":"自已說一個原方內老師的請休假等等的都一定會有人力調度的問題如果在人力調度不行但是他真的有加班比如額外服務的事實那應該來支持的是這種額外給老師的補貼因為這個制度大概要這樣設計這個才有辦法"},{"start":304.861,"end":309.302,"text":"對阿所以我說教育部要跟勞動部一起來好好的來尋求一個很平的解方啦不是只有裁罰勞檢裁罰我覺得是教育部要正向的去支持如何去解決這個問題嘛才能夠確保教保人員的權利嘛您這個如果說現在目前有這種現況我們覺得應該彙整一下"},{"start":324.366,"end":332.712,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會"}]}},{"id":"152107","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152107","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db125ee4930ed6d6a802e2d519231ec7ad855be169921a0a7176f5f1e5c7976d0465ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"12:10:53 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我看到檢察官的數字也是檢察官的話"},{"start":208.086,"end":227.393,"text":"2014年的數字是檢察官是有這個1398人那到現在3月是1413人10年增加15人但是呢平均每年每位檢察官每年偵查的新收件數是從2014年763.5件增加到2023年的1135.1件漲幅高達"},{"start":237.797,"end":256.704,"text":"48.7所以從案件量來說很明顯的不管是法官跟檢察官都是處在一個案件暴漲的一個狀態所以我覺得今天事實上聽到很多專家學者對於說怎麼樣在案件上其實不只是說今天外面在講說要增加我們司法官員額的問題"},{"start":257.904,"end":285.936,"text":"有的當然是解決問題的路徑之一但更重要是整個結構性的改變增加我們的審案的效率以及審案的品質那這個部分我覺得才有辦法去治本的來去解決很多問題那比方說我也看到就是說很多的一些改革的一些意見包括說要檢警分工也可以參考日本跟美國的一些法例"},{"start":286.676,"end":306.106,"text":"因為我們現在大概111年地檢署起訴人數65%是屬最重本刑5年以下有期徒刑之罪所以也有看到一些意見在研究說針對性質單純的犯罪可以採行日本美國的這個立法例檢警分工那把一些"},{"start":307.226,"end":325.259,"text":"法律要件單純案件情節輕微告訴哪一論的違罪交給警察然後聘請律師退休檢管做法律顧問來確保法律程序我覺得各方的很多意見我這邊有聽到那也會再請教我們的專家學者希望大家一起來精進我們現在司法體系當中所面臨的問題 以上 謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152106","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152106","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1f57c33d02698b921e12ebde737ab3c1955be169921a0a7173784cf7fd6c958015ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴瑞隆","委員發言時間":"12:05:35 - 12:14:07","影片長度":"00:08:32","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員柯志恩等17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（詢答及處理，委員郭國文等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-10"},"duration":512,"end_time":"2024-05-02T12:14:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T12:05:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":778,"blocks":[["賴委員瑞隆：（12時5分）謝謝主席，請王部長。"],["主席：請王部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，這一季的GDP成長6.51，其實是近11季來很好的成績，部長怎麼看待為什麼有這樣的成果？"],["王部長美花：事實上我們原來就有預估，確實是AI的大爆發，對臺灣來講，這一塊所有的晶片都是在臺灣做，非常重要的是90%的伺服器跟供應鏈都是由臺灣提供，這個帶動整個臺灣的經濟往上跑，我覺得這是非常好的。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以部長也看好整個後續的經濟成長率？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個大概是很好的整個啟動起來了。"],["王部長美花：對。"],["賴委員瑞隆：其中很重要的一個是輝達、一個是超微，之前部長也提過兩大科技廠要來臺灣設置物流中心，現在的進度狀況如何？"],["王部長美花：他們都已經在運作了，特別是NVIDIA的物流中心已經在遠雄經貿園區運作了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：對，這個已經在運作了。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：超微這一塊呢？AMD的部分呢？"],["王部長美花：AMD的部分是確定，至於它如何運作，我再確認一下。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們在6月份有一個電腦展……"],["王部長美花：COMPUTEX。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這兩位都會來。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：聽說經濟部要與他們簽署一些像是MOU或LOI的部分，這個有在進行當中嗎？"],["王部長美花：就這兩家的部分，我沒有特別講，因為他們在國內已經都有相關的投資、有相關的研究，應該是有申請RD研發的部分，我們會緊鑼密鼓來辦理。"],["賴委員瑞隆：看來超微也有意願在臺灣做相關的投資，經濟部這邊與他們有沒有相關的合作？是不是有簽署意向書或備忘錄的可能性？"],["王部長美花：目前因為它已經按照我們的大A＋申請中，所以按照大A＋相關的程序進行就可以了。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以沒有什麼樣的問題？"],["王部長美花：就按照程序進行，我們希望能夠加快。"],["賴委員瑞隆：有沒有要補充的？"],["邱司長求慧：報告委員，目前就是正在審查中，並沒有形式上簽署LI的動作。"],["賴委員瑞隆：所以沒有這樣的問題，也就是這樣的合作是沒有問題的？"],["邱司長求慧：因為正在審查，對於審查單位而言，簽署LI好像在審查過程中比較不適合，所以就按程序來審查。"],["賴委員瑞隆：OK，了解，但是在合作上引進來臺灣投資是沒有問題的嘛！"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱司長求慧：我們會盡量與它談一個比較好的條件。"],["賴委員瑞隆：OK、OK，謝謝。部長，我覺得未來在AI這一塊也相當重要，大家也都努力在爭取，但我還是希望提醒一下，七成的新創事業也幾乎都與AI做了很多的應用合作，但我還是希望這些能量不要有南北失衡的問題。我們看到這些都很重要，包括新創的環境，其實臺灣的世界競爭力已經排名第6了，在整個全球新創生態系的排名也到了24，這些都是很好的成績，包括賴總統也講到創新創業雨林生態系的問題。但是我們以整個中小企業與新創事業的分布來看，臺北市大概有3,410家、新北市有1,017家、高雄有565家、臺南有313家，其實很明顯地，北與南之間還是存在著相當的落差，高雄與臺南加起來還不及新北，更不要說是遠遠落後臺北市了。我覺得這一塊還是要請部長、司長及署長大力支持，讓南部這塊的中小企業或新創事業的發展都能更加順暢。剛剛也提到輝達已經在臺北投資，我們希望未來有更多的可能性是往中南部走，部長，針對南部這一塊要如何協助推動？"],["王部長美花：是，我們也很贊成，如果南北都有新創的話，對於吸引相關人才也是有幫助，所以我們經濟部的策略一定會讓南北更平衡。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我希望部長、司長及署長等等都能不斷地把這個放在心裡去做處理。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果你不做處理，最後一定是多數都落在北部，其實北部是具有相當的優勢，你一定要很有策略、很有目的往中南部推動，才能讓南北之間在這一塊有均衡發展的機會，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是，我們同意。"],["賴委員瑞隆：請務必要幫忙。其實也要謝謝部長支持南部一些相關的經費，像是產發署的規模，我們也看到第三座新創基地可能會設置在北高雄的橋科，這是由國科會主導的。我要講的是未來可能會有3座，林口新創園、亞灣新創園及橋科的園區，看起來林口與橋科都可能會達到一萬多坪、1萬5,000坪，但是亞灣新創園的條件其實相當不錯，未來有機會在高軟二期設置，我也希望部長、司長及署長能大力支持，讓亞灣新創園的能量能夠更強大，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是，我們都在做相關吸引新創能更集中，更集中的能量就會更好，這個我們都積極在進行。"],["賴委員瑞隆：現在高軟二期在進行中，我也希望未來在空間的部分是不是能夠給予更充足的空間？像林口的環境逐漸成熟，一萬五千多坪的空間就包含了250間獨立的辦公室，但是亞灣新創園才1,356坪，獨立辦公室只有25間，這個落差其實相當大，所以我希望部長、司長及署長支持在高軟二期能有好的空間，讓亞灣的新創這一塊能蓬勃發展。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：部長，請繼續支持，好嗎？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝。另外，再請教一下關於電力的問題，我看到有些人提出要求修一些相關的法令，部長怎麼看？"],["王部長美花：我們認為電費要經過審議委員會的審議，而審議委員會除了產官學之外，還有工商團體及消保團體，大家非常細膩地做出討論，所以我們建議這樣的方式還是比較好的方式。"],["賴委員瑞隆：這個機制好不容易從政治決定回到了專業的決定。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：甚至在國民黨政府的時代就提出來了，後來還立到法裡面去了，如果現在因為這樣的因素而再變動的話，立法院最後會演變成政治決定，在立法院很多東西變成政治決定要漲價大概都很困難，你要在專業立場想去漲……"],["王部長美花：這個也不利於台電穩定提供電力的情形。"],["賴委員瑞隆：我們希望這一塊還是要持續對外界提出說明，好不好？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：無論哪一黨執政，我覺得將專業機制建立起來，對於國家的長遠發展是好的。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：如果用政治過度介入很多專業上的決定時，往往受害最大的都是國家，因為最後的政治考量一定是該漲都不要漲，所有的東西都不要漲，該降的全部降，事實上最後結果一定是全部的納稅人與全部的人民受損。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員瑞隆：謝謝部長。"],["主席（楊委員瓊瓔）：謝謝。","接下來請陳冠廷委員做詢答。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":510,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-10","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","賴士葆","邱議瑩","張智倫","郭國文","陳亭妃","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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OK 好好謝謝。那部長我覺得這個未來的AI這一塊也相當重要啦所以我想這個大家都努力的在爭取但是我還是希望提醒就是說其實七成的新創事業都幾乎跟AI在做很多的應用合作但是我還是希望這些的能量上面不要有南北失衡上的問題啦齁。"},{"start":217.091,"end":231.269,"text":"我們看這些都很重要,包括新創的環境,其實世界競爭力台灣也進到第六,在全球的新創生態系的排名也到了24。都很好成績,包括賴總統也一直在講創新創業雨林生態系的問題。"},{"start":234.873,"end":257.961,"text":"但是我們來看一下整個從中小企業跟新創事業的分佈來看,台北市大概3410加數,新北市1017,高雄565,台南313。其實還是很明顯的北跟南之間也存在的相當落差。高雄跟台南加起來還不到新北,更不要講遠遠落後台北市。"},{"start":258.621,"end":274.549,"text":"那我是覺得這一塊還是要請部長跟市長、署長都要大力來支持讓南部的這一塊的中小企業或者新創事業的一些的這個發展能夠更加的順暢。甚至剛剛也提到了像輝達的部分也在"},{"start":275.709,"end":298.707,"text":"adequate在臺北來投資了嗎?我們都希望未來有更多的可能性是往中南部去走,讓南部這一塊,部長怎麼來協助推動?是是,我們也很贊成齁,因為你這樣的南北都有這樣的新創的話,那對吸引這個相關的人才也是有幫助。那這個我們經濟部的策略就是一定會讓南北更平衡。"},{"start":299.587,"end":322.032,"text":"我希望部長或所有的署長、司長等等所有都還是要不斷地把這個放在心裡面去做處理啦因為你不做處理最後一定是多數落在北部啦北部其實是具有相當的優勢的那你一定要很有策略很有目的地去往南部、中南部去推動它才有機會讓南北之間這一塊有機會均衡發展的一個機會是的,我們同意這一定要請務必那個"},{"start":323.272,"end":341.055,"text":"那我們來看一下,其實南部也謝謝部長也都有在支持一些相關的一些經費,產發署的規模。但是我們看到了,其實大家都很努力,其實在第三座的信訟基地現在有可能會在北高雄的僑科來設置,那這是國科會這邊來主導的。"},{"start":342.276,"end":357.502,"text":"那我要講的是未來有可能會有三座,林口新創園、雅灣新創園跟喬科的這個園區。那三個裡面園區看起來林口跟喬科都可能會達到一萬多坪、一萬五千坪。但是這個雅灣的新創園其實條件相當不錯齁。"},{"start":358.883,"end":364.407,"text":" bicy 未來其實有機會在高原二期來設置,我也希望部長、署長、市長這邊來大力支持,讓雅灣新創園的能量能夠更強大好不好?是,我們都有在做這樣相關的吸引性創,可以更集中,然後更集中它的能量就會更好,那這個我們都積極在做。"},{"start":379.696,"end":394.681,"text":"現在高原二期在進行中嘛那我也希望未來這個空間的部分是不是能夠給予更充足的空間啊你看林口的他已經其實他的環境逐漸成熟所以他一萬五千多坪的空間獨立的辦公室等等他250間"},{"start":396.201,"end":417.49,"text":"以雅灣新創原材1356坪,獨立辦公室25間,這個落差期相當的大啦。那我們希望說在高原二期的部分,希望部長、署長、司長等大家能夠支持在高原二期能夠有這個好的空間出來,讓雅灣的新創這一塊能夠來蓬勃來發展。是是是。寶寶,部長這個請繼續支持啦,好嗎?是是。"},{"start":422.105,"end":432.735,"text":"好 謝謝另外想要請教一下電力的問題我看到有些提出來要求來修相關的一些法令 部長怎麼看?"},{"start":434.29,"end":438.472,"text":"我們是認為這個電力的電費的審議那經過這個審議委員會那審議委員會裡面除了產官學之外還有工商團體、消保團體那這個非常細膩的去討論出來之後我們是建議這樣的方式還是比較好的方式?"},{"start":454.217,"end":475.038,"text":"這個機制好不容易從政治決定回到了專業的決定了齁那也經過甚至在當時的國民黨政府時代也提出來的這樣的一個然後也立到了法裡面去如果現在因為這樣的因素而在變動的話立法院的話那幾乎會演變成最後是政治決定那在立法院政治決定幾乎很多東西你要漲價大概都會有困難"},{"start":475.538,"end":492.534,"text":""},{"start":492.534,"end":512.329,"text":""}]}},{"id":"152105","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152105","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db13e73510ae2581892d575e50b9cd8685a55be169921a0a7175001aab791138e155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:07:10 - 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點億元今天修過了也沒有辦法解決問題某個程度上我是同意您的說法"},{"start":106.889,"end":127.208,"text":"但我覺得另外一件事情也要講清楚就政治人物選前不要隨便開支票你開了支票就要兌現這個是我覺得一般民眾對政治人物的要求你不要選前跟大家說我要一點議員選後的時候開始藉口一堆"},{"start":128.129,"end":148.355,"text":"一般的民眾會想說奇怪你開選舉支票的時候怎麼沒講一堆藉口啊怎麼沒有講說一點議員那但還要如何如何如何如何那現在啦因為時間很尷尬您在18天就要脫離這個痛苦的位置了"},{"start":149.876,"end":176.956,"text":"所以那個政策進一步去問你恐怕您也說不出什麼具體的東西出來因為我也看了在相關問題的討論上的時候您曾經說過這個需要一個大型的審議會議大家針對整個健保制度怎麼整體的改善仔細的來討論好那就您所知我們目前當選的總統賴清德先生他心裡面已經胸有成竹"},{"start":177.717,"end":190.188,"text":"要怎麼樣進行全體的改革,履行他的政見而且不會發生你剛剛所講的狀況,即使調了一點議員,錢也不會落入醫事人員的口袋。"},{"start":192.133,"end":210.422,"text":"這部分的話我可能要再講一下啦,就是說在總統當選人他在講的是不低於0.9。但是...0.9也可以,所以今天你會贊成0.9嗎?0.9的話我覺得是可以的。今天喔?對,今天。因為這以財源來看的話是沒有問題。"},{"start":213.386,"end":237.841,"text":"但是如果0.95一點議員的話那可能就會有問題所以賴總統他也是提到就是說朝向那個目標去做前進我相信八大醫師團體他們的聲明他們的期待你應該都有聽到了那大家會質疑的就是說選前選後的態度其實要一致要不然一般民眾真的會"},{"start":239.022,"end":248.196,"text":"我覺得政治人物好像選舉支票亂開,開完就沒事了。選前是朝野同意就沒有難度嘛。那選後是會破壞制度嘛。"},{"start":250.461,"end":274.327,"text":"這個條件是不一樣我在講的是總額預算制度如果總額預算制度要拿掉的話只要朝野同意就沒有問題好沒關係啦等一下馬上會進行審議啦那時間到但我希望借兩分鐘的時間齁再幫我們的護理師能夠說幾句話三班護病筆入法本來是衛福部選前就要積極推動的事情嘛那"},{"start":275.247,"end":291.969,"text":" bicyn年我們的護病筆的確是有公告但是入法可能還要有一段期間昨天五一勞動節的時候我相信有很多護理師的同仁他們也走上街頭了他們的訴求很明確就是說"},{"start":292.89,"end":315.54,"text":"三、國民黨黨團擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第14次全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次"},{"start":318.574,"end":341.055,"text":"以目前來講,我們之前所估算的,如果要達到三班互併比,那全體來講,人員的缺額大概是7000多人。那我們目前一年是可以的,如果在我們各種措施之下,那人力可以補進來的,差不多是在,如果在醫院的部分,大概會在1500多人左右。這樣還有7年喔?"},{"start":344.938,"end":345.158,"text":"ympt."},{"start":345.158,"end":362.531,"text":"七千五是所有的包括 整所的沒有關係因為時間到您就直接跟我講您覺得還需要多久我是覺得至少要四年的時間四年喔對哇那個跟戴總統開出來的證件差蠻多的還是戴總統他語言比較有藝術他說兩年內或他任內"},{"start":363.669,"end":378.015,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第11屆第12會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第"},{"start":385.052,"end":392.763,"text":"要記得自己選錢,做了承諾。三班護病比入法是我們非常多護理師他們共同的心聲。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152104","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152104","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1ce7bf67ed64e02740cbbe991ada1931c55be169921a0a71731724058523239b15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"12:07:33 - 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三) 委員馬文君等17 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委員柯志恩等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。委員柯志恩等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。委員柯志恩等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。委員柯志恩等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。委員柯志恩等18人擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育"},{"start":85.851,"end":106.247,"text":"教育部立法院第11屆第1會期教育部立法院第2會期教育部立法院第3會期教育部立法院第4會期教育部立法院第5會期教育部立法院第6會期教育部立法院第7會期教育部立法院第8會期教育部立法院第9會期教育部立法院第10會期教育部立法院第11會期教育部立法院第11會期教育部立法院第12會期教育部立法院第12會期教育部立法院第12會期教育部立法院第12會期教育部立法院第13會期教育部立法院第13會期教育部立法院第14會期教育部立法院第14會期"},{"start":116.298,"end":127.324,"text":"委員我不曉得這個學校這個地方是因為老舊還是因為颱風會造成學校重建我是對這個比較沒有我說我需要進一步了解是這個"},{"start":128.528,"end":155.122,"text":"對,所以...因為如果是...署裡面到目前為止也沒有把這個...因為如果是災損本來就有災損的處理的機制跟費用如果是老舊重建委員那就是另外一個必須要討論的啦部長這件案子確實是因為小選颱風造成了一個颱風的一個災損那所以屏東縣政府根據小英總統在現場的指示馬上就是請學校把文也做了也刊准到我們會"},{"start":155.962,"end":167.126,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會"},{"start":172.728,"end":190.199,"text":"所以看到4月3號我們花蓮大地震之後教育部針對花蓮的學校在後重建提到馬上重寬重塑讓我們滿洲的鄉親很心酸啊一樣是地震一樣是災損卻有不一樣的處理標準請教部長難道屏東人不應該不會啦"},{"start":192.18,"end":213.051,"text":"對屏東的學校建設教育部給予非常多的支持,包含到現在你可以跟周縣長瞭解到,因為他的財政不是很理想。只是委員講到這個個案,我必須要跟委員報告說,我再瞭解他是因為災損還是因為老舊。這個比如像花蓮女中啊,其他中小學委員所及的這個,這是因為地震,所以立刻就啟動災損,包含相關的這個費用去做處置啦。"},{"start":217.053,"end":243.175,"text":"部長我想這個我們都有相關的媒體報道這都是小岩總統在現場當場交代的所以請教育部不要害小岩總統施行於明那因為針對我們的屏東的這個施肢因為我們有很多的偏鄉那其實很多的老師他對於所謂的一個行政負擔的比例過重常常有很多的怨言那這次我們的偏教條例上面看到所謂的一個"},{"start":244.936,"end":252.061,"text":"要用班級書來換取老師的原文而不是考量所謂一個教學科目跟行政的部分那這部分我們教育部怎麼來做調整"},{"start":253.475,"end":270.486,"text":"委員所提到的有關師資的這一部分確實目前我們都希望學校盡量的把這個缺有開放出來那這幾年有真的增補了很多那對於在這裡面的待遇待課的專聘的這些老師我們會給予有關師培的這些內容的這樣的機會"},{"start":277.33,"end":291.441,"text":"那麼委員提到這個2022年的這個新聞我不曉得因為這幾年我跟委員報告專任教師的缺額全國每年大概都開出將近5000個的缺額在聘專任教師"},{"start":294.396,"end":321.346,"text":"除了這個事之外本期主要還是要強調屏東縣我們有200多所的學校那其中碰到的困難叫做非三非四那這個非三非四的一個認定本期認為有檢討的必要尤其我們在座的宗教兵委員非常清楚我們這個標準對於我們學校實在是非常的不盡公平尤其對於所謂一些教育資源的一些軟硬體建設真的給予很大很大的一個限制那這部分我們也要求教育部來做一個調整"},{"start":322.546,"end":342.137,"text":"如果那個評估的指標委員覺得我們剛剛一直都在收集第一線的一些意見如果委員覺得說有一些具體認為要再做哪一個調整能夠讓屬於這樣的類型的學校也能符應這個評估這個我想委員再提供給我們陳儒部長知道我們的屏東縣的財政很困難要好好補助或不補助那真的很難辦"},{"start":346,"end":349.565,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4"}]}},{"id":"152103","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152103","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db18159ea8ffed58cead575e50b9cd8685a55be169921a0a7172c23e8c81565850e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"楊瓊瓔","委員發言時間":"11:59:31 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«全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案》案。Reporter 今天修了這第六十二條本席有提案本席的提案是直接在點子方面就是一塊我們中國國民黨的提案也就是超過每年度醫療給付費用總額的部分由中央主管機關編列預算支應在這個平均點子的部分是不得低於0.95請教部長你支持吧"},{"start":48.444,"end":66.533,"text":"這部分的話必須要去算,我已經有把這個數據提供給我們的這個委員會。提高的方向是大家可以認得嗎?如果0.95的話,那就是一年必須要有700億,而且它是長期的,而且這700億會越來越多。"},{"start":67.601,"end":76.924,"text":"ignty 本市請教你的立場。你先確認立場。如果立場是一樣的,大家共同討論才有方向。"},{"start":83.607,"end":97.343,"text":"對啦!你就貪白這樣說啦!但是我是認為只有去調整這個點子,沒有辦法處理健保的所有這些…還好你這麼說!所以必須要有配套的…這錢好像打水漂一樣,再丟進去就沒了啦!"},{"start":102.99,"end":124.773,"text":" bicyn 這是我們需要的,不是打水漂。人民的健康如果健康,當然這個國力會強啊。怎麼會打水漂?你這個打水漂,我絕對不同意你這樣的形容詞。 bicyn 你如果其他問題沒有解決的話,那健保還是有問題。 bicyn 這個就是我們必須去討論嘛。但是不能說把錢拿進來給這個點子叫做打水漂,這一點絕對不同意。"},{"start":125.874,"end":149.475,"text":"只處理電池的問題的話是沒有辦法解決台灣現在健康的問題你也是有作為的所以第一個就是我們發覺到疫情前跟疫情後我要謝謝你把疫情後大家增加的這些你用安全基金來撥補給我們所有的醫療體系這樣子就是真正的在協助我們的醫療體系"},{"start":150.896,"end":179.292,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":179.452,"end":183.614,"text":" bicyn 您是有作為。我跟你討論的也就點值。我要確認一件事情。點值來加為至少是0.5以上。您應該是同意這樣子的方式嗎?就是我們今天要修的62條的這個條例啊。"},{"start":210.87,"end":214.011,"text":" bicyn 要有配套的措施"},{"start":229.236,"end":255.121,"text":"好 這個很好 那就是這個配套就是說如果多出來比總額多出來的就由中央政府去這個這個編列編列進來那就變成我們有給你配套我們有給你配套這個就是總額就就就沒有了怎麼總額就沒有還是限縮在那裡嘛所以我好沒關係這個我們來討論就一個原則第一個點值一點在0.95以上本身提案是一塊"},{"start":256.281,"end":266.153,"text":"厲典絕五以上,這個方向大家是共同的,那配套?那配套錢怎麼來?好,就是中央政府要來撥補資嗎?怎麼沒有?你哩?哩典絕五怎麼會沒有?要撥稿來撥?就跟你安全基金一樣來補一樣啦,對不對?你固定電池,你後來是量沒辦法控制。"},{"start":276.084,"end":296.2,"text":"我跟你講,我們目前採取德國的方式,用總額來簽。德國的是超過總額的部分的話,他是打折支付,要怎麼樣打折。每一個國情不一樣,我本身告訴你的是,你目前這個總額是由陳時中部長從德國的制度拿過來的啦,對不對?"},{"start":296.94,"end":300.123,"text":"所以沒關係我們每一個時間的樣態不一樣所以你就否決了陳時中了每一個樣態不一樣的時候我們就要去討論的確我們需要這樣子的一個協調我也希望調整我也希望你待會我們在討論的時候能夠支持那還有一點我要拜託你一下也就是說我們的這個老年人口跟醫療的需求"},{"start":323.524,"end":344.053,"text":"�"},{"start":344.053,"end":370.538,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":372.389,"end":397.026,"text":"但是我們的需求增加!你不用跟我咬文絕字啦!因為我們知道健保給付的不足會導致護理人員他沒有辦法去調薪嘛!加班費等啊!所以你如果只有專案的給他補一下那個只有治療所以我還是回來根源我還是回來根源三班的護病筆你要什麼時候可以去入法"},{"start":397.706,"end":411.529,"text":"現在就已經是有,至於入法的部分的話就是說,如果沒有達到的必須要做處罰,因為小機構要有一個時間去把人找到啊。所以你有說了一句名言我蠻認同,你說要小飯休,那小飯休要飯休什麼?"},{"start":418.951,"end":420.492,"text":"二、國民黨黨團擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案"}]}},{"id":"152102","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152102","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db14b7e7ae4f3c4cc10455ccb8302deb5eb55be169921a0a7176c0cd07174f692445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"11:58:31 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12:05:41","影片長度":"00:07:10","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會、勞動部就「公共工程職業安全衛生改善暨降低職業災害辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預算凍結案計7案。）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-10"},"duration":430,"end_time":"2024-05-02T12:05:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:58:31+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":593,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（11時58分）謝謝主席，有請鄒署長。"],["主席：請鄒署長。"],["鄒署長子廉：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：署長好。我們首先來看，在去年上一屆第7會期5月18號衛環委員會的降低工安事故提升職場安全之具體推動方案專案報告，根據這項專案報告，勞動部訂定兩年期間之職場減災策略，針對職場安全健康提升，設定將112年到113年兩年的重大職災死亡人數降低10%作為目標，至今執行狀況如何呢？請署長說明。"],["鄒署長子廉：在112年、113年是有降低，但沒有到10%，這點我們有在檢討。"],["邱委員若華：沒有到10%，那你們掌握到的數字是多少？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，112年死亡人數是300人，111年是320人，還有一年，我們希望113年能夠再控制。"],["邱委員若華：OK，好。","今年4月27號，勞動部許部長也特別提出2030年臺灣職災減半的推動政策，以2030年重大職災死亡人數減半為推動目標；另外，有很多委員也都有提到，你們將今年訂定為營造業墜落打擊年。但喊出的目標那麼多，會被人家認為只善於口號及宣傳而已，署長這邊要做平反嗎？"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員報告，一個機關、一個組織、一個政策要設定願景、目標，要不然，不訂定目標的話，大家就不會集中火力這樣進行。針對2030年，我們是配合國家的永續發展階段目標，勇敢訂了職災減半，重要的還是死亡人數減半，有很多人質疑我，說我們只做口號，但是我們認為政策若支持，後面的資源跟配套措施也會過來，就可以更好地展開。","至於為什麼今年作為墜落打擊年？因為我們發現去年跟前年營造業的墜落減少得是非常緩慢的，確實發生墜落困境這個問題，所以我們希望不管從檢查機構的角度、工程主管機關或工程查核的角度，一起成就墜落預防的機制，透過一年、兩年的展開，我相信就有往前進步的機會。跟委員做這樣的回報。"],["邱委員若華：OK。","昨天是五一勞動節，而勞動部今年常喊安心職場還有安全勞動，至今安全工作環境也都是勞工朋友的期待還有願景，在五一勞動節，很多勞工朋友也對政府喊了訴求，包括昨天也提了很多訴求，那職安署是不是要檢討，針對勞工朋友做出回應呢？"],["鄒署長子廉：當然。跟委員報告，其實外界給我們的期許跟期待，我們都會檢討。也跟委員回報，其實這兩年勞動部主要的方向包括勞工職災的保護，我們有新的勞工職災保險及保護法，針對受傷勞工或傷病勞工的診治跟提供重返職場的協助，這些我們有在做比較好的展開了；在整體預防的部分，透過災保法規定，有20%職災保險費率挹注到預防跟重建工作，我們也在做這樣的努力。","另外就是有關整體安全的部分，我們也希望透過部會合作來展開，因為若只由勞動部來做其實不太可能，還包括工程部分，而工程的主要大宗是交通部、經濟部，整個公共工程其實量是非常大的，我相信從公共工程主管機關的角度展開才會有進步的空間。"],["邱委員若華：那我再回到墜落打擊年，剛剛洪委員還有羅委員都提到，署長也提到檢查機構做檢查之後會回報，那要如何確保檢查機構每一個檢查項目都有落實呢？"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員回報，我們的要求是檢查員若檢查時發現有缺失要作具體回報，檢查結果若是好的也要回報，我們用照片或後續以後臺管控。比如說檢查員到了現場，如果只到1樓檢查，但現場有10層樓，邏輯上也要到10樓作檢查，這樣才知道檢查的有效性跟完整性。當然這樣會造成檢查員比較大的工作負擔，但是若要追求墜落防災，墜落部分要到墜落現場檢查才是嘛！比如說電梯間、開口、施工架、屋頂，這些東西檢查要到位，確認是不是夠安全。所以我們透過這樣的要求，再由檢查員回報好的跟不好的，就可以達到比較好的檢查效果。"],["邱委員若華：那假設檢查有疏失的話，責任歸屬是在檢查機構還是在勞動部職安署？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，我們是監督檢查，至於現場缺失主要的主責在於雇主，也就是事業單位，我們可以課責、可以處分、可以要求立即停工、復工改善；但是檢查機構的成績，也就是分項降災成效，各檢查機構要作內部的檢討，比如說臺北市、新北市、高雄市，對於各都市，我們都授權勞動檢查機構，他們也追求預防墜落的次項目標，共同成就這樣的墜落打擊。"],["邱委員若華：好。","我要再請吳主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員你好。"],["邱委員若華：主委好。工程會還有勞動部的書面報告都提到公共工程的重大職災死亡人數有逐年下降的趨勢，報告中也提到以零職災為目標。請看我的簡報，這是近10年公共工程還有工作場所的重大職災死亡人數的統計表，其中今年到4月14號的統計是2人，你有沒有信心這個數字可以保持下去？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我們還希望往零邁進。"],["邱委員若華：往零邁進，好。","還有，在職安署國內外重大工安事故的訊息專區就只有4件重大事故，請問對於重大事故的定義是什麼？"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，這次我們職安署網站重新調整，希望提供國外的重大事故，可以供國內作正面的學習，其他事故則會在職災地圖網站揭露。至於這個網站，我們是希望向國外學習，譬如說我們最近在研究一件案子，巴爾的摩港有輪船把橋梁給撞倒了，死的是橋上的維修勞工，有5、6個勞工死亡，像這種案子，我們就拿來作國內外的相互學習之用。謝謝委員提醒，有關這個網站的有效性跟豐富度，我們會作出檢討。"],["邱委員若華：OK。但我希望不要有迷思，就是死亡才算數，傷殘對勞工家庭來說也是巨大的變故。","我想請問吳主委還有署長，0403震後有對國家公共工程作盤點跟檢查嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：0403之後，對於相關民間工程也好、公共工程也好，整個都已經盤點過了。"],["邱委員若華：都盤點過了？"],["吳主任委員澤成：現在都進入災害復原重建階段。"],["邱委員若華：好，謝謝主委，也謝謝主委過去的付出還有貢獻，本席也給予最大的祝福。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，謝謝委員。"],["邱委員若華：謝謝署長。"],["主席：邱若華委員發言完畢。","現在請鍾佳濱委員發言，鍾佳濱委員、鍾佳濱委員不在。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢。作以下決定：報告及詢答完畢。委員廖先翔所提書面質詢列入紀錄，並刊登公報。委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面資料或未及答復部分，請工程會儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-10","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","黃健豪","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","徐富癸","林沛祥","蔡其昌","許智傑","張智倫","黃國昌","林俊憲","游顥","羅智強","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","邱若華","廖先翔"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會、勞動部就「公共工程職業安全衛生改善暨降低職業災害辦理情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預\n算凍結案計7案","agenda_id":"1133901_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.4697187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.7478437500000004,"end":3.6253437500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.83971875,"end":9.329093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.329093750000002,"end":9.396593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":9.480968750000002,"end":10.594718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":11.084093750000001,"end":40.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.986593750000004,"end":45.846593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":46.20096875,"end":47.534093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.635343750000004,"end":49.39034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.57596875,"end":60.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.797843750000006,"end":61.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.540343750000005,"end":66.38346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":66.63659375,"end":75.27659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":75.44534375,"end":77.11596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":77.20034375,"end":81.25034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":81.53721875000001,"end":92.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.92784375000001,"end":142.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":142.81034375000002,"end":161.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":162.30096875,"end":163.41471875000002},{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福謝謝好謝謝署長"}]}},{"id":"152101","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152101","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db15404b4711091e0d4455ccb8302deb5eb55be169921a0a7173f89fb76c88401ab5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"11:51:28 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11:57:18","影片長度":"00:05:50","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會、勞動部就「公共工程職業安全衛生改善暨降低職業災害辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預算凍結案計7案。）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-10"},"duration":350,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:57:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:51:28+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":576,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（11時51分）謝謝主席，我請公共工程委員會吳主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["王委員鴻薇：還有勞動部職安署鄒署長。"],["主席：請鄒署長。"],["吳主任委員澤成：王委員你好。"],["王委員鴻薇：主委好、署長好。"],["鄒署長子廉：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：請你們先聽一段音檔。","（播放音檔）"],["王委員鴻薇：好，主委、署長，昨天是勞動節，我想對於基層勞工來說，尤其在一些工程前線的勞工來講，其實他們可能每一天都擔負一定的風險。今天這個音檔事實上是來自高鐵烏日基地的一個工班，是他們所面臨的實際狀況，剛才游顥委員也特別提及，在4月9號的時候，一列高鐵南下列車突然停了5分鐘到8分鐘，整個跳電，他們沒有說明原因，但事實上是當天他們在進行開關的維修。一般來講，依照SOP應該在晚上維修，而且必須把整個電力關閉，可是他們沒有做，所以他們白天在做維修、測試的時候，電流就通過了；而另外一組工班6個人在當地現場維修，還好這個工班是很重視SOP的，因為他們要保護自己的生命安全，所以他們都會用接地棒去驗，驗了3次，很驚訝地發現應該關閉電流的地方竟然還是開啟電流，他們就說如果當天沒有按照SOP的話，6個人就變成烤肉串了。","針對這件事情，我和游顥委員早上有召開記者會，也感謝勞動部派人到記者會來聽整個狀況。所以我請問一下署長，這個狀況現在你們也大致了解，你們會做什麼樣的處置？"],["鄒署長子廉：跟委員回報，謝謝委員提供這樣的訊息，針對這處彰化基地，我們會由中區職安中心會同臺中市勞檢處先就這件個案了解有沒有違反職安法規，並做後續處置。第二，看來這個公司的管理系統出了狀況，邏輯上就是應該夜間作業，在沒有通電的時候作業，結果竟然是在通電的時候作業，看起來是管理系統出了問題，所以針對高鐵公司整個安全作業管理系統，我們也會建議高鐵作進一步的說明，再做後面的處置。"],["王委員鴻薇：對。我到時候也會繼續提供資料。","我今天早上還特別提到，其實這也是高鐵內部所提供給我們的，事件在4月9號發生，已經發生了，卻一直遲到4月30號經營管理週會裡，他們董事長才提及這件事，而提及這件事情是為什麼呢？是因為他們發現員工非常不滿意他們對這件事非常草率，好像事情過了就算了，反正沒有人員傷亡就沒有關係。這些基層勞工都說：「我有老婆、孩子要養耶，我會擔心。以後讓我怎麼安心地去工作？」事實上他們確實也去投訴，今天交通部沒有來，他們甚至投訴到主管機關，但是最後也沒有任何訊息，所以才會投訴到我這邊來。我覺得你們除了要了解SOP之外，也希望你們針對高鐵公司的經營層調查。我到時候也會提出書面質詢，今天交通部沒有來，請交通部去了解一下，為什麼4月9號發生的事情，公司到4月30號的經營管理週會才提到這件事。而且因為已經有很多人爆料，公司還說以後要小心一點，避免同仁到外面爆料！所以如果不爆料，他們就不處理這件事情。","對於勞動部，我非常肯定也感謝你們主動介入調查，你們要讓這些基層員工在前線、第一線能夠認為自己是安全的，好不好？可以喔？謝謝。"],["主席：王鴻薇委員發言完畢。","現在請王美惠委員，王美惠委員、王美惠委員不在。","現在請李柏毅委員發言，李柏毅、李柏毅委員不在。","現在請鄭天財委員，鄭天財委員、鄭天財委員不在。","現在請邱志偉委員，邱志偉委員、邱志偉委員不在","現在請楊瓊瓔委員，楊瓊瓔委員、楊瓊瓔委員不在。","現在請陳冠廷委員，陳冠廷委員、陳冠廷委員不在。","現在請蔡易餘委員，蔡易餘委員、蔡易餘委員不在。","現在請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐委員、鄭正鈐委員不在。","現在請羅明才委員，羅明才委員、羅明才委員不在。","現在請邱若華委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-10","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","黃健豪","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","徐富癸","林沛祥","蔡其昌","許智傑","張智倫","黃國昌","林俊憲","游顥","羅智強","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","邱若華","廖先翔"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會、勞動部就「公共工程職業安全衛生改善暨降低職業災害辦理情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預\n算凍結案計7案","agenda_id":"1133901_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.21659375000000003,"end":2.9334687500000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":3.3553437500000003,"end":6.32534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.32534375,"end":6.4772187500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.4772187500000005,"end":8.130968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.544718750000001,"end":7.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.856593750000002,"end":9.71721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.071593750000002,"end":10.08846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.08846875,"end":10.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.18971875,"end":10.797218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.797218750000003,"end":11.691593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.134093750000002,"end":15.94409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.230968750000002,"end":23.082218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.25596875,"end":18.762218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.22284375,"end":42.032843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.150968750000004,"end":42.53909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.977843750000005,"end":44.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.95221875,"end":47.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.14596875,"end":48.17534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.80784375,"end":52.32659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.984718750000006,"end":53.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.250343750000006,"end":54.992843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.735343750000006,"end":57.08534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.65346875,"end":67.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.46346875,"end":68.13846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.45471875,"end":69.75846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.51346875,"end":74.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.97284375000001,"end":75.02346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.42159375,"end":93.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.96971875000001,"end":96.08346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":98.29409375,"end":98.78346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.08721875,"end":100.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.87596875000001,"end":102.46221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.27221875000001,"end":117.90284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.98721875000001,"end":119.62409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":120.1978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151.645,"end":160.453,"text":"各位委員回報我們全國的勞動檢查員安全衛生部份大概是原額是665個人那勞動條件包括薪水薪資休假那個勞動條件檢查是333人所以總共全國勞檢員是11033個原額但是我也跟委員承認因為我們勞檢員也有一定的流動率因為其實我們外面去做檢查也是蠻"},{"start":174.065,"end":202.02,"text":"所以說原額部分謝謝委員提醒我們也在做任務盤整需不需要增加或是斟酌我們這個勞檢重點的改變讓檢查是有效但是不是疲於奔命是那你現在因為你自己定的目標是最弱打擊年目標是要比2021年到2023年這三年的平均值還要減少三成是最弱的部分是是那你具體的做法是什麼首先委員這個第一個就是有關"},{"start":203.101,"end":220.987,"text":"你的緣額、你的人數,如果沒有增加,我用塊掃三層,然後就掃香拜佛,看拜託今年大家墜落少一點。如果緣額、金額、預算都沒有任何的增加,那你掃三層的底氣哪裡來?"},{"start":222.264,"end":247.501,"text":"報告委員我們的預算會有增加因為我們也會透過我們的公共預算去做爭取但我們檢查會針對最弱範圍的重點檢查但是我們認為不是純粹檢查才會降災我們透過目的世界主管機關甚至營造團體工會還有工地主任工會執行面對部分的落實他們能不能貫徹到現場來署長我先提出這樣的一個質詢是期待是說我們督促大家來做好"},{"start":248.962,"end":270.293,"text":"你會後那個預算增加以及相關的部分再請給本席辦公室資料那另外本席也提醒其實還有一個行業這當然今天討論的是各個公共工程但是我覺得這點出來我覺得我們一起來解決我真的是希望是解決有一個行業其實風險非常高而且我也聽了很多業者講他真的是現在高齡、鷹架搭設"},{"start":272.054,"end":289.029,"text":"他也跟墜落很有相關就我們外面外牆那些鷹架有沒有竹架搭設外牆搭設而且他最辛苦的地方在什麼主猜對主猜沒有錯什麼時候要主要猜颱風來臨前了"},{"start":291.126,"end":318.144,"text":"臺風來臨前突然間大量的需要人力要去收那些帆布那在那短時間兩三天的時間會變成是他們工作可能超過一天超過十幾個小時二十個小時為什麼因為大家都要搶著趕快把帆布捲起來不要影響那等到颱風過後再把那個帆布也降下來我們就本席的這個選區裡面就有這個鷹架搭設公司說半年內"},{"start":319.751,"end":347.748,"text":"兩個工人就摔下來摔斷腿那這樣的一個狀況我們能夠怎麼樣因為當然這不是公共工程可是對於這樣的一個行業我也問過業主他講說那你們沒有綁安全繩嗎還是他講是說現在這個行業基本上沒有年輕人要投入沒有年輕人要投入有的都是老班的那他也不敢用外勞也不能用移工也不能用移工也不能去搭"},{"start":348.925,"end":349.045,"text":"謝謝洪孟楷委員"}]}},{"id":"152099","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152099","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db193ec7bc6d8035413455ccb8302deb5eb55be169921a0a717ab02743e9e591aec5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅智強","委員發言時間":"11:39:39 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署長好雖然今天報告主題是公共工程的重大職業災害但公共工程是整個職安保護的一部分根據職安署的統計數字我看到蔡英文總統上任前2015年的重大職災死亡勞工人數是321人營造業死亡是147人"},{"start":36.627,"end":55.805,"text":"那2023年整體死亡人數是下降到300人但營造業增加到151人平均每2.4天就有一位營造業的勞工死亡那相較於其他的產業營造業所發生的職災死亡事件更多那以111年"},{"start":58.927,"end":85.997,"text":"來說因為我看到你們的統計值我這邊得到的資料只有到111年有接近一半的死亡人數就是來自營建業那總體來看111年因為職安事件而死亡的案例當中有一半是因為墜落而死亡那死亡在營建業比例始終居高不下那前三年平均有98名營造業勞工因墜落死亡那"},{"start":87.017,"end":107.474,"text":"但是如果去稽查,部長、署長你知道,發現違私的話,最高可以罰多少錢嗎?報告委員,我們現在是違反這個法令規定是,只要把6條第一項是3到30萬。3到30萬嘛。那就是說根據你們的違反職業安全衛生法事件統一裁罰基準,通常要到第三次才會罰到30萬嘛,對不對?是。"},{"start":110.584,"end":112.485,"text":"一條人命就是您所謂的3到6萬或是法到30萬那目前"},{"start":132.856,"end":161.776,"text":"你們怎麼有沒有打算去調整的因為事實上我們知道就是說基本上勞工安全的後盾有部分是要靠我們的行政機關的這個強制力量那如果你要督促這個業者能夠去做好所謂的一些相關的安全工作的話有時候裁罰的強制力量其實也是一個很好的一個督促的一個機制但你看目前來看這個3到30萬元您覺得足夠嗎"},{"start":163.175,"end":191.835,"text":"跟委員報告這治安法修法這個訂的3到30萬是在民國103年正式施行已經進了10年所以我們勞動部也在做內部檢討因為外界也認為說我們3到30萬這個Range應該在做進步的改善或者增加比如說3到90萬之類的讓這個額度拉高但是對中小型微型的企業它本身程度可能也有限所以那個Range部分我們在內部討論那我們今年也有希望在做那個治安法修法的那個的進展"},{"start":193.196,"end":208.726,"text":"那到時候再請委員再跟我們多協助跟指教我覺得這個還是要希望你們就處理要做勞工的後盾那已經不合時宜的一個裁罰的一個基準其實就要與時俱進否則的話勞工就失去這個後盾"},{"start":209.566,"end":236.247,"text":"今年初職安署辦了一場所謂的春安勞檢營造業防墜落職災要今年定為營造業墜落打擊年那針對營建業部分的話那麼去年營造業工作場所重大職災死亡人數還是墜落災害佔整體營造業將近70%那我想請問你今年的目標是什麼那目前稽查量有提升嗎開發數量有多少"},{"start":238.571,"end":257.444,"text":"報告委員,我們的目標是用前三年的數據再做30%,使用降30%為目的。全國職業災害墜落大概是5成左右,但是營造業的墜落災害是佔到7成。所以我們認為針對現場的開口,護欄沒有做,但是當作我們集合的重點,所以我們今年就整理做展開。"},{"start":258.064,"end":276.897,"text":"另外就是檢查機構查完之後回報我們系統裡面還有報告部會裡面的工程查也做進行那這個詳細數字因為現在加入3月我們是不是容許我們在後期補給這個資料給委員參考麻煩後補過來其實整個我要講就是說因為真的我覺得政府就是我們勞工最重要的後盾"},{"start":277.697,"end":277.717,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152098","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152098","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db137b521aeb93ffb48e12ebde737ab3c1955be169921a0a7170ab1c07276b9cfa75ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:58:17 - 12:05:32","影片長度":"00:07:15","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員柯志恩等17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（詢答及處理，委員郭國文等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-10"},"duration":435,"end_time":"2024-05-02T12:05:32+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:58:17+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":732,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（11時58分）謝謝主席及各位先進，有請經濟部王部長及財政部李次長。"],["主席：請王部長、李次長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["賴委員士葆：兩位長官，我們來看一下這個案子，原來的130%是民國105年通過的，對不對？民國105年。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["賴委員士葆：因為它前面有條條框框，說經濟要到一定的條件，GDP要成長到多少，這個細節是經濟部訂的，還是財政部訂的？"],["李次長慶華：我們財經兩部一起會商訂的。"],["賴委員士葆：一起會商，訂得「傷鹹」啦！總共只有啟動兩次，總共稅損多少？李次長說一下，稅損多少？啟動兩次的稅損。"],["李次長慶華：金額很有限。"],["賴委員士葆：金額多少？你說一下，我們聽一下。"],["李次長慶華：第三十六條之二，因為它有不同的項次。"],["賴委員士葆：全部加起來，lump sum。"],["李次長慶華：第一項大概是兩千多萬元，第二項是兩百多萬元，第三項是一百多萬元。"],["賴委員士葆：我給你數字啦！你都沒有加，我替你加，兩次加起來總共稅損8,400萬，中華民國的稅收每一年都是兩兆多、多、多、多、多，你兩次的稅損就八千多萬，所以你要關心中小企業，為基層的勞工來加薪，都是騙人的啊！130%在這裡，結果你們兩次啟動，就是因為門檻訂很高，只有啟動兩次。105年到現在113年，8年的時間只有啟動兩次，只有啟動兩次！","我們看到數字，大家都知道這個數字，員工的薪水占GDP的比例，在先進國家裡面，我們算先進國家，我們幾乎是最低的，占43%，大部分的錢都給老闆拿走了，給財團的老闆拿走了，基層的員工分不到啊！這個要看清楚，三分之二的勞工是領不到平均薪資的，平均薪資現在是四萬二，68%的人領不到。這麼好的一個加薪的法案，就是因為財經兩部，本來我以為只有財政部，原來經濟部也插一腳，你們就訂那個條件，框框在那裡，所以總共稅損八千多萬，然後你們計較八千多萬，然後現在還不敢再放，只放150%，你預計150%的稅損是多少？次長講一下，如果是150%，稅損多少？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，其實我們這一次很重要的一個修法是把原來那些條件都修掉了，都刪除了，這是一個很大的修正。"],["賴委員士葆：好，那你預估這樣一來，150%會稅損多少？"],["李次長慶華：這一次修正以後，基本上……"],["賴委員士葆：稅損多少？"],["李次長慶華：我們減的稅收大概是……"],["賴委員士葆：稅損多少？"],["李次長慶華：如果是以低推估，大概是2億左右。"],["賴委員士葆：2億而已，但是有多少人可以受惠？"],["李次長慶華：可不可以麻煩經濟部說明一下？"],["賴委員士葆：試算的，有多少人可以受惠？"],["王部長美花：我們的預估，高推估的話，兩個項目加起來大概是兩萬多人。"],["賴委員士葆：兩萬多人。"],["王部長美花：低推估的話，大概是九千多人。"],["賴委員士葆：好，2億，這個帳很好算，稅損就是2億，我們一次把它拉到200%，了不起3億啊！稅損3億，那你說2萬人，我們可以到3萬人，為什麼不要做這樣的事情？我聽不懂啊！大家都一直講臺灣貧富差距越來越嚴重、越來越嚴重，那麼最近的數字也是這樣子，怎麼辦？那就讓基層的員工有機會加薪，這麼好的一個案子，你們也願意從善如流，這樣放一點、放一點、放一點，130%變成150%，步調太低太少了，就一次到底200%，部長，可以嗎？200%。"],["王部長美花：謝謝委員，等一下在個案討論的時候，我們會就相關的占比再做討論。"],["賴委員士葆：不是，你要先講一下啊！你贊成啊！反對的，後面那個人可能有意見啊！次長，講一下，2億到3億的稅損有要緊嗎？有要緊嗎？有要緊嗎？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，主要是因為我們這次修法是完全無條件的，只要你加薪，微幅的加薪也可以適用，可能我們要考慮一下……"],["賴委員士葆：本來就應該無條件、本來就應該無條件。"],["李次長慶華：對，但是幅度如果過高，對於那些即使只對企業加薪一點點，是不是也要給它這麼優惠，可能要考量一下，後續能否達到我們的政策目的。"],["賴委員士葆：加薪金額有關係喔！加1萬元與加5,000元是不一樣的喔！"],["李次長慶華：是，我們是覺得如果……"],["賴委員士葆：你怕什麼？"],["李次長慶華：不是，其實這個稅收損失真的不是很大，但是我們真的覺得必須要達到它的政策效果。"],["賴委員士葆：政策絕對有效果，200%的效果絕對比150%好，而且你把框框拿掉了，申請的人絕對會越來越多，現在你是估2萬，我認為只要調到200%，絕對會超過3萬。3萬人而已，我們現在有120萬家中小企業，請問王部長，中小企業的從業人員有多少？"],["王部長美花：中小企業從業人員是九百多萬人，沒錯。"],["賴委員士葆：九百多萬啊！只有3萬人受惠？"],["王部長美花：但是，報告委員，我們評估過符合資格可以來算的大概是20萬家。"],["賴委員士葆：20萬家？"],["王部長美花：對，大概是20萬家。"],["賴委員士葆：20萬家能有多少錢，我就已經算過了，財政部說稅損是2億，調成200%之後，了不起就是3億、4億，好不好？去年就超收了三千六百多億，對不對？你還計較這個？部長、次長，真的，你們要看到臺灣現在是這麼扭曲的經濟社會，說GDP多讚又多讚，結果是有錢人越有錢、窮人越窮，這個是一點點而已，表示我們的決心而已，老實講受惠的人也不會太多、也不會太多，他要有加薪才能夠成嘛！老闆要撐得住才會幫員工加薪，鼓勵他，本質上他要能夠賺錢，沒賺錢也沒辦法加薪。真的，我建議主席，我們就一次從150%增加到200%，這樣比較快，年輕的220%，謝謝。"],["主席：請賴瑞隆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":510,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-10","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","賴士葆","邱議瑩","張智倫","郭國文","陳亭妃","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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bicy成的員工分不到啊,這個看清楚,平均的員工,平均勞工,他的薪資三分之二的勞工是領不到平均薪資的。平均薪資現在四萬二,百分之六十八的人領不到。這樣子的這麼好一個所加薪的法案,就是因為財經兩部,本來我以為就財政部,原來經濟部也差一腳。"},{"start":174.261,"end":184.314,"text":"你們就那個條件了,空空在那裡,所以總共稅損八千多萬,然後你們計較八千多萬,然後現在還不敢再放。"},{"start":185.993,"end":212.367,"text":"只放一百五,你一計一百五能夠稅損多少?來來來,次長公子,如果你的一百五稅損多少?是報告委員,其實我們這次修法是很重要的一個修法,是把原來那些條件都修掉了,都刪除了。對,這是一個很大的修正。那這次修正以後,基本上我們減的稅收大概是,如果是以低推估大概是兩億左右。兩億啊!兩億而已啊,各位!"},{"start":215.731,"end":221.873,"text":"但是有多少人可以受惠?是算的!有多少人可以受惠?兩萬多人!好!兩億啊!各位可以這個帳都很好算的喔!稅損就是兩億!"},{"start":239.76,"end":257.685,"text":"我們一次把它拉到200%,了不起3億啊!所以損3億,那你說2萬人,我們可以到3萬人,為什麼不要做這樣的事情?我聽不懂啊!這個大家都一直講台灣貧富差距越來越嚴重,越來越嚴重!那麼最近的數字也是這樣子,然後再怎麼辦?"},{"start":258.871,"end":273.845,"text":"那就讓基層的員工有機會加薪。這麼好的一個案子,你們也願意從善如流,一百三變一百五,步調太低太少了,就一次到底兩百八,可以嗎?"},{"start":277.4,"end":282.542,"text":"謝謝委員,那等一下照個案討論的時候,我們就相關的這個暫評再去討論。"},{"start":292.285,"end":314.88,"text":" bicyn 罷文其實主要是因為我們這次修法是完全無條件的,只要你加薪,微幅的加薪也可以適用,所以這個可能我們要考慮一下就是說,但是如果你幅度過高是不是對那些就是說一般他即使只對企業加薪一點點,是不是要給他這麼優惠,可能要考量一下,因為這個後面成果達到我們的政策目的啦。"},{"start":322.345,"end":322.505,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具"},{"start":339.605,"end":341.566,"text":"議員賴士葆等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。"},{"start":359.03,"end":372.153,"text":"但是跟委員報告去適用到這一個的部分我們有估過大概合資格可以來算的大概是二十萬家啦。二十萬家能夠多多少錢。我的算過財政部說稅損兩億變成兩百趴了不起三億四億好不好。每年去年超收三千六百多億。"},{"start":384.6,"end":411.618,"text":"對不對,你要計較這個,這個東西啊。部長、市長,真的,你們要看到臺灣現在這麼扭曲的一個經濟社會,所GDP法戰、獨法戰,結果有錢人越有錢,窮人越窮。這個,這個是,這個也是一點點而已啦,表示你的,我們的決心而已喔。這個,老實講,受惠的人也不會太多啦,也不會太多,他要有加薪才能夠成。"},{"start":412.278,"end":431.732,"text":""}]}},{"id":"152097","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152097","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1117ac52727a7c2d5d575e50b9cd8685a55be169921a0a71780c1356d47cdd5255ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"盧縣一","委員發言時間":"11:51:06 - 11:59:26","影片長度":"00:08:20","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員王育敏等19人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【以上議案，如經復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-14"},"duration":500,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:59:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:51:06+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":871,"blocks":[["盧委員縣一：（11時51分）召委，請部長。"],["主席：好，請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["盧委員縣一：辛苦了，剩下18天，再忍耐一下。我們聽了很多關於1點1元的事情，其實我一直在想，是不是我們國家投資的不夠？因為我們在看OECD平均是9.7，而且它是從7一直逐漸上升到現在的9.7，那我們國家一直停留在6.6，你覺得我們國家應該要怎麼做，來彌補這樣的一個空間？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然增加衛生醫療方面的投資有其必要，這個前提我先講，但是要怎麼樣增加的方法，以及資源要怎麼樣配置，這個就必須要大家來做討論。目前來講的話，當然6.6是沒有把長照算進去，如果長照算進去，應該七點多了，但無論如何，健保所占的比例已經差不多四點多。"],["盧委員縣一：我們是希望能夠逐步調高好不好？有共識嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然是有可能，但是每年的成長率就會有調高的一個基準。"],["盧委員縣一：我們今天的訴求大概就是0.95以上，本黨的訴求是0.95以上，還有1元的。當然就偏遠地區的想法是，是否能夠超過1或1.1、1.2都可以去思考。至少我們今天討論的重點在0.95以上。所以我的看法是這樣，兩年內以公務預算補足健保點值缺口，至少保障為0.95以上，四年內能夠逐步調整為1點1元，這是我的想法。不過本黨的立場是希望能夠在修正案通過以後，送朝野協商就是0.95以上，這是我的想法，你的看法呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：這部分其實都是一樣，因為所謂的0.95或是1點1元的部分變成是長期性的，不是只有一年、兩年爭取預算把它補到就好，不是，它是變成長期性的。因此以後就變成，如果要用1點1元，公務預算就一年要編超過1,100億以上。"],["盧委員縣一：有，我剛才有看了書面報告。"],["薛部長瑞元：這會逐年一直增加。"],["盧委員縣一：好，我們看下一頁。之前吵得沸沸揚揚的掛號費，我們還是希望能夠尊重市場機制，而不是以行政命令，可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，本來現在就是這樣子，我們已經改過了。"],["盧委員縣一：好，下一頁。重大與高貴的新藥是希望能夠另以公務預算來挹注經費，我希望我們山地離島是屬於重大政策。因為我們一直在說，我們平均餘命少了8年到10年的框架，那一定是屬於重大政策，所以我們在編預算的時候應該是另外來編，我是指山地離島的部分。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個可能要再進一步去做討論，因為新藥新科技終究是醫療的一部分，說不含在健保裡面的話，其實是有一點問題的。但今天在講癌症新藥的部分是說，當這些藥如果在臨床上面的實證還不太夠，但是我們可能有很多病人急著要使用來試試看，這時候讓他進來……"],["盧委員縣一：我希望部長能夠交接，就是說我們重大的這個，把我們山地離島放在這裡面。因為常常就是說，偏鄉地區需要洗腎室沒有洗腎室，需要急診室沒有急診室。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個部分其實我們現在健保制度裡面是有啦！我們鼓勵在山地離島的這些執業，然後我們加成給付，那IDS方案讓其他的這些大型醫院能夠來協助，這個現在是……"],["盧委員縣一：從民國91年服務一直到去年退休，我的IDS沒有調整過。"],["薛部長瑞元：這個當然可以……"],["盧委員縣一：你剛才有說到我的收入高不高的問題，其實我要說的是，我都是六點就開始服務，早上六點到下午，也就是說其實是花了非常多的時間。沒關係，這個是題外話。"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["盧委員縣一：我們又增加了兩個醫學中心，對我們偏遠地區來講，真的是看到一個大餅在那邊，可是卻吃不到。"],["薛部長瑞元：不會啦！"],["盧委員縣一：我們是希望在醫療資源分配的時候，能夠多著重在花東，我們山地離島這邊，可以嗎？因為我們希望能夠看見不一樣的投資。"],["薛部長瑞元：當然，因為在山地離島這些地區的醫院來講，都是比較是小型的，所以現在健保署有一個計畫叫做燈塔型的醫院，要怎麼樣去協助他，讓他不能倒。這個目前已經規劃好，現在要跟醫界來做協商。"],["盧委員縣一：OK！那我們看下一頁。我最近有遇到一個團體來跟我請求，就是說衛福部砸了30億在波波牙醫執照這個訓練計畫，也就是說可能在未來的三年，有五百多位的波波牙醫，會經由這個管道變成我們偏鄉的牙醫師，你覺得這樣對我們公費牙醫師合理嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這有一些傳說是不正確的，我們這個偏鄉的醫療計畫裡面，包括了牙醫，因為目前在臺灣……"],["盧委員縣一：可是我們看這個數目是非常多，是高於全國各個學校的牙醫系，現在波波牙醫系是占最高的比例。"],["薛部長瑞元：現在問題是，這些牙醫系畢業之後，考上牙醫師執照的都聚集在都會區，所以偏鄉還有很多是無牙醫鄉。"],["盧委員縣一：可是我們很多養成班的牙醫系學生，並沒有分發到位啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，所以我們現在這個制度，就是希望這些牙醫師能夠到偏鄉去服務，我們會有一些鼓勵的措施，這個並沒有說限定是波波牙醫或本國牙醫，我們非常歡迎本國牙醫能夠到這邊來。"],["盧委員縣一：可是實際上的數字是這樣，所以我想說我能夠進一步去了解這個計畫到底是怎麼運行的，可以嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然是可以啦！開始運行之後我們會做一些報告，但是我們也不排除國外回來的這些牙醫師能夠來這邊服務，反正本國的願意來我們優先，如果沒有的話……"],["盧委員縣一：我希望部長能夠轉達我們養成計畫裡面的牙醫公費生畢業的確實能夠到衛生所到位，因為常常都因為說衛生所沒有那個編制，他們沒有辦法下鄉服務，至少先解決這個問題。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，我們希望是在衛生所，但是也不完全都在衛生所，其實他要自己去租個地方，開業診所我們也都一樣有補助。"],["盧委員縣一：OK！可是衛福部要站在輔導跟協助的角色不是嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["盧委員縣一：因為我發現很多公費牙醫師都沒有回鄉服務，他們甚至說他們沒有地方可以服務。"],["薛部長瑞元：公費牙醫師其實他的缺很少啦！我們每年……"],["盧委員縣一：是，可是還是有這些需求。"],["薛部長瑞元：對，這個我們當然也必須再做一些盤整，到底他們現在都跑到哪裡去？我們希望他們能夠履行他們服務的義務。"],["盧委員縣一：我希望部長能夠確實交班，謝謝你，辛苦了。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝盧縣一委員，接下來我們請楊瓊瓔委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-14","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","黃秀芳","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","劉建國","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","賴士葆","李彥秀","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","賴惠員","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；二、委員蘇清\n泉等27人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康\n保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.84846875,"end":9.599093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.78034375,"end":11.67471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.657218750000002,"end":16.24784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.872218750000002,"end":26.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.06596875,"end":19.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.558468750000003,"end":27.03096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.351593750000003,"end":34.74284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.41784375,"end":51.66846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.039718750000006,"end":52.056593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.056593750000005,"end":52.09034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.09034375,"end":56.73096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.95034375,"end":71.37846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.49659375,"end":79.36034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.78221875,"end":84.27096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.65909375000001,"end":85.84034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.84034375,"end":88.70909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.31659375000001,"end":98.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":89.67096875,"end":90.95346875},{"speaker":"S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bicyn保所佔的比例已經差不多4點多。已經差不多4點多。那我們是希望能夠逐步調高好不好?當然是有可能,但是每年的成長本來就會,成長率就會有這個調高的一個趨勢。我們今天的訴求大概就是0.95以上嘛,就是下一頁。"},{"start":101.971,"end":118.302,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":118.942,"end":121.064,"text":" bicyn Kwan-kwan﹗"},{"start":142.517,"end":152.521,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案．事由．立法院第11屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆第11會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第12屆"},{"start":166.988,"end":189.206,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":189.557,"end":191.459,"text":" bicyn Kwan-kwan-kwan-kwan"},{"start":212.137,"end":228.672,"text":" bicyn 要再進一步去做討論,因為新藥新科技它終究是醫療的一部分,那說不含在健保裡面的話其實是有一點問題的。"},{"start":229.633,"end":249.735,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":249.735,"end":279.343,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":279.343,"end":295.009,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":295.947,"end":311.476,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":311.616,"end":335.227,"text":" bicyn 因爲我們希望能夠看見不一樣的投資。因爲在山地離島,在這些地區的醫院來講都是比較是小型的。所以現在健保署有一個計畫叫做燈塔型的醫院要怎麼樣去協助他,讓他不能倒。目前正在,已經規劃好,現在要跟醫界來做協商。"},{"start":338.507,"end":361.647,"text":" ️ ️"},{"start":361.807,"end":376.219,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案：立法院第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次全民健康保險法第16次"},{"start":390.23,"end":409.94,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":410.162,"end":428.387,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":428.867,"end":445.78,"text":"當然是可以啦,這開始運行之後的話我們會做一些報告。但是我們也不排斥說這國外回來的這些牙醫師能夠來這邊來做服務。反正本國的願意來我們優先。我希望部長能夠轉導我們養成計畫裡面的牙醫工費生畢業的確實能夠到衛生所到位。"},{"start":452.205,"end":455.647,"text":"adequ?對,我們希望說是在衛生所,但是也不完全都在衛生所。其實他要自己去租個地方,開業診所,我們也都有補助。"},{"start":471.798,"end":492.347,"text":" bicyn 因為我發現很多公費牙醫師都沒有到回鄉服務啊。他們甚至說他們沒有地方可以服務。 bicyn 公費牙醫師其實他的缺很少啦。 bicyn 可是還是有啊。還是有這些需求。 bicyn 這我們當然也必須要去再做一些盤整啦。那到底他們現在又跑到哪裡去這些。那我們希望說他能夠履行他們服務的這個任務啦。"}]}},{"id":"152096","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152096","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db18208245da0eb0a390cbbe991ada1931c55be169921a0a717b71df2bc9b747a7b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林倩綺","委員發言時間":"11:48:34 - 11:58:58","影片長度":"00:10:24","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答)【4月29日及5月2日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":624,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:58:58+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:48:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":776,"blocks":[["林委員倩綺：（11時48分）謝謝主席，請潘部長。"],["主席：請潘部長。"],["潘部長文忠：林委員好。"],["林委員倩綺：部長好。剛才有很多人祝福你，一開始我也祝福你。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。"],["林委員倩綺：雖然我們不知道後面還會有幾次，不過對於今天這個議題，很感謝能夠跟您在這邊直接討論，也謝謝召委把重點的偏遠地區學校教育發展條例做了一個總整理。就我們這幾年所做的檢討，本席先提出六個條文──第七條、第八條、第十一條、第十四條、第十七條、第十九條，我在這邊先做一個總整理，講完之後，再請部裡面提供一些數據給我。"],["潘部長文忠：好。"],["林委員倩綺：第七條有關專任教師的制度，就我所拿到的相關資料來看，感覺臺灣的專任教師近乎到零，通常都不是由主管機關來招考，都是由學校自行招考，感覺地方是不是推不動，還是不買單？我不知道是不是這個情形；但是由學校招考的話，可能也有他們的一些限制。","其次是第七條、第八條，提升代理教師待遇的部分，離島以外的地方主管機關很少公開甄選進用代理教師，學校可以聘用無證的代理教師，問題是無證的代理教師也沒辦法進行公費的師培，聘任也不能超過兩次，看起來還真的是有一點麻煩跟問題。本席不知道這份整理對不對，會後部裡面也可以針對這部分提供相關的資訊跟數據。","有關第十一條的部分，因為校長沒有權限，地方也沒有資源，這一條的說明是我們可以徵聘師資，問題是偏鄉除了教育的問題，還牽扯到家庭、社區、族群。早上也有委員提到學校當然是一個社區中心，但是這裡面其實會牽扯到社工，還有地方創生專長的人，就會變成學校跟家庭的一個嫁接；但因為師資的缺乏，學校也沒辦法再去把這兩組人做一個嫁接，所以感覺校長好像沒這個權限，有可用的人也無法用。","有關第十四條行政減量的問題，早上有很多委員提到偏鄉教師大量的行政作業，其實也是一個讓大家沒辦法久留很大的原因，甚至要去的時候，可能都沒辦法應對，所以這也是一個麻煩。不過已經有很多委員提起，部裡面早上也做了一些回應。","另外，第十七條有關混齡教學的部分，我找到的資料是沒有，目前好像很少有學校這樣做，師培體系好像也沒有混齡教師的相關訓練，部裡面是不是也可以做一個回應？","最後是第十九條鼓勵成立區域教育資源中心，本席發現全國好像還有三分之一的縣市沒有設立，偏遠國中、小最多的幾個縣市，如雲林、南投、屏東，都沒有辦法設立。以上幾個部分是我做的盤點，我看教育部對很多東西都做了數據，部長這邊可以的話，就把相關的資料跟數據提供給我。","另外要針對兩個部分來跟部長討論。第一個是流浪教師遍布全國，但是偏鄉卻沒有老師可以來教，不知道部裡面有沒有檢討過這個問題。據本席瞭解21萬人有教師證，卻有9萬人沒有職缺，這就是流浪教師；可是偏鄉非都市地區又找不到老師，不知道部裡面有沒有發現這樣一個問題？有沒有什麼處理的方式？因為本席只剩下一分多鐘的發言時間，我就借用洪孟楷委員的話，請部長不要太費心，然後就精準的、很快的回應，可以嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：委員前面所提到的那六個議題，招考這件事情一定是主管機關來辦理，包含學校或地方政府，大概比較不適合全國辦一次甄試。我想依規定跟用人權，這樣才比較合適，除非縣市委託中央辦理，但是一般比較不會這麼做。"],["林委員倩綺：這個可能要檢討跟處理的是為什麼有這麼大的落差，可以瞭解一下啦！我有時候會覺得他們很無力。"],["潘部長文忠：這個當然可以。委員剛才提到行政減量……"],["林委員倩綺：這個部分沒關係，部裡面再提供給我。"],["潘部長文忠：好，因為這個跟委員關心的是非常關鍵，這個確實是地方老師、地方學校非常沉重的負擔，所以，我也請署裡就這方面提出相關的措施，還有區域資源中心以增置人力及任務做更明確化，讓這樣的中心可以有效的協助非常小型的學校，不要每個學校都做同樣的事，這個……"],["林委員倩綺：行政減量的問題，早上很多委員提到，我相信你這邊應該……"],["潘部長文忠：對，我想這個在新的學年度應該能夠對偏鄉學校有一個具體的支持……"],["林委員倩綺：對，就不用怕惡性循環。"],["潘部長文忠：對，然後委員剛剛提到流浪教師或偏遠地區缺乏師資的這個部分，過往縣市跟學校保留太多的缺額，偏鄉甚至有三、四成保留，所以最近這三年，教育部逐一盤點，各縣市跟學校也強力的要求，因為編制準則是以百分之八為原則，卻超過這麼多，所以這三年，幾乎每年都有將近五千個缺額釋放出來考試，這一方面讓具備教師證資格的老師有機會來任職，我們也請縣市做一件事，你開的缺一定不要忘記偏鄉學校的缺要開放出來，這樣你甄選的人才能到那邊；你不開缺，如果自由選擇，當然都會選擇到交通比較方便的都會區等等，所以這幾個都是這三年非常明確的配套措施。"],["林委員倩綺：好的，現在就是執行上的問題，所以就請確切執行。早上好像陳委員有提到，有經驗的老師其實都很難留在原鄉；對於久任的鼓勵，剛才也有幾位委員提到，本席這邊是不是可以建議部裡面，針對專任教師的制度，確實是有一點狀況跟困難，久任的部分看起來好像是一種鼓勵跟獎勵，但重點是除了獎金或鼓勵以外，我們是不是先用誘因，因為久任需要大家待好久，才會有你講的錢；問題是你講的這個錢去除以每一個月，每個月才730塊，你們再算算看，我不知道有沒有算錯，但如果只有730塊，而且要八年以後才能領到，現在應該還沒有人領到吧？"],["潘部長文忠：第一批114年可以領到。"],["林委員倩綺：如果是114年，我不知道你們有沒有盤點過，明年可以領到的人有多少？"],["潘部長文忠：有8,500個。"],["林委員倩綺：這部分我們明年再來檢視一下。所以八年、然後十一年，跟有經驗的教師能不能留下來，我覺得就是有很大的原因，所以本席很直接提出來，針對這個部分，部裡面可不可以將誘因加在鼓勵跟獎金上面，不要讓大家那麼久才能領到這個錢；再者就是獎金應該提高，不要讓大家覺得要熬這麼久，感覺是在跟人家交換、討價還價似的。所以，可否以誘因來取代等了很久的獎金。另外就是獎金要提高。還要再提醒一件很小的事，剛才有委員講到偏鄉雙語師資的匱乏，然後這還帶了一個問題，像藝術跟師培教師，到最後很多都會以雙語的條件來取人，所以部裡面可能要處理一下這件事情。最後，本席在3月5日問你們原住民族專班學生就業率、所學科系跟職場的相關性，其實在質詢之前，本席就要過，你們叫我們去勞動部找，我們已經去函但找不到，所以又來跟部裡面講，而你們每次都叫我們去找勞動部，問題是勞動部就找不到，你們就跟勞動部一起看要怎麼處理，總是要解決嘛！是不是我們就四年統統都要不到？你們數據既然那麼強，部長可以給我一個承諾嗎？要嘛就是教育部做；要不然你們就跟勞動部，最後給我一個結果。這個會期我一定要要到！主席已經站起來了，就是either yes or no，可以嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：我們跟勞動部再對焦一下，因為這個……"],["林委員倩綺：要有一個結果。"],["潘部長文忠：因為整個職場長期的統計……"],["林委員倩綺：好啦，謝謝啦！"],["潘部長文忠：我們要不要拜託他們對委員關心的這個對象能夠聚焦，不然就是一直重複做類似的事……"],["林委員倩綺：不是啦，就是給我一個數據結果，我才能進行下一步的瞭解，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林委員，謝謝部長。現在處理臨時提案。今天委員提出的臨時提案，共計兩案。請宣讀。","一、","案由：有鑑於教育部為因應校園霸凌事件之防範與處理，進行全盤檢討並修正「校園霸凌防治準則」；為能更防微杜漸、關注顧及各種跡象之可能發生，有別於明顯有感可見的歧視，有關無處不在的「微歧視（microaggression）」─意指表面上並未有明顯的攻擊意味，卻多表現在日常語言、肢體語言，或者其他環境中對特定對象（如少數族裔、有色人種、殘疾人、女性等）進行有意或者無意的輕視、怠慢、詆毀和侮辱等，應將其納入準則並列為反霸凌宣導、教育及輔導課程項目或定義說明入法。建請教育部、文化部、內政部及法務部進行有關微歧視定義、宣導與法令條文之研究評估，並於一個月內向立法院教育及文化委員會提出書面報告。","提案人：林倩綺　　鄭天財Sra Kacaw　　　洪孟楷　　萬美玲　　柯志恩　　","二、","教育部於109年04月04日新聞稿指出財團法人中華民國兒童福利聯盟文教基金會，其業務涉及「兒童教育」（教育部主管）及「兒童福利」（衛福部主管），屬財團法人法第3條所定「業務涉及數個中央目的事業主管機關者，以其主要業務之中央目的事業主管機關為主管機關」，教育部將視該會業務比重，視其目的業務發展情況輔導其辦理改隸，兒福聯盟於113年3月27日新聞稿指出：目前有475名全職工作同仁，社工業務同仁超過330位，占比超過7成，建請教育部依規定辦理改隸。","提案人：郭昱晴　　","連署人：吳沛憶　　陳培瑜　　"],["主席：我們先處理第1案，請問提案人林倩綺委員針對這個案子有沒有需要說明？"],["林委員倩綺：謝謝。主要是上個禮拜在文化部這邊，針對公共電視的部分，本席提出一個建議跟要求，因為我們常常會忽略掉微歧視這個問題，而文化跟教育不可分，本席建議應將其納入準則，不知道部裡面的意見如何？"],["主席：部長可不可以解釋一下，你們認為要怎麼樣的修正文字或者是？"],["潘部長文忠：分兩部分報告，針對「應將其」的部分，建議委員是不是讓我們研議，因為往這個方向走，相關的內容還是應該要做一個探討，所以我們是建議加「研議」兩個字。也因為其他部會今天沒有出席，我可能比較不能代表其他部會來說明，教育部針對相關的部分，我們會配合辦理，因為還有其他的幾個部會，我比較不能代表部會回應委員這個問題。"],["林委員倩綺：我確定一下，就是你們會辦，對於內容要怎麼處理，你們會研議？可以嘛！謝謝。"],["主席：他說要研議怎麼樣來處理，但只針對教育部自己可以管轄的範圍；可是這個部分所牽涉到的，其實還包括文化部、內政部等等，所以教育部只能針對自己的部分來研議是否可以把它加入準則，還有討論空間。"],["林委員倩綺：那你是可以加入準則，然後研議內容嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：因為委員的提案，後面還包含好多個部會，教育部不能代表其他部會說這個可以這樣子做，因為委員的提案內容跨了好幾個部會。"],["主席：所以最好的方法是否可以請教育部會同文化部、內政部等等，大家共同來研議，是否可以把它納入準則，一個月之內？"],["潘部長文忠：這樣修會比較好。"],["林委員倩綺：可以。"],["主席：因為他們要會同其他的單位，教育部只能處理他們自己的部分，這樣沒有辦法達到委員當初的需求，所以由教育部來會同其他的部會，你覺得這樣可以嗎？"],["林委員倩綺：第一個，你會做嘛！然後就是內容，除了文化部，不要忘記還有公共電視，主要是公共電視的部分。"],["主席：對啦！這個由教育部來匯集這些單位，會把公共電視等等納進來。這樣可以嗎？一個月之內。"],["潘部長文忠：這樣整體會比較適合。"],["林委員倩綺：教育部會做嘛！"],["主席：他們會做，一個月就要做，好不好？所以，第1案就是文字修正完之後，我們就通過。謝謝。","第2案的部分，請提案人郭昱晴委員說明。"],["郭委員昱晴：前面應該都沒有問題，因為這個是教育部自己新聞稿的部分，就是在兒福聯盟他們的業務範圍，最後的那個部分就是建請教育部依規定辦理改隸，這個地方是不是可以直接就請教育部一個月內依財團法人法第四條協調衛福部及兒福聯盟辦理改隸，大概是這樣，一個月內可以嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，這樣好不好？謝謝剛才這樣的文字修正，我只是再增加……因為改隸不是教育部說我這個單位要求衛福部就要接收啦，但是啟動這個，絕對有必要，因為我知道衛福部……不好意思，因為我們內閣最近剛好在整理，我為什麼說一定要趕快啟動，因為這個對這件事情才是好的辦理啦，否則教育部是督導主管機關，可是又不是督導到它現在出事情的這些相關業務，所以我建議辦理改隸事項是不是在一個月內完成，這個我覺得應該要給一點時間，兩個部會是有共識的。"],["郭委員昱晴：有共識？"],["潘部長文忠：有共識。"],["郭委員昱晴：那三個月可以嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：兒福的業務以它自己目前所辦的就應該要改隸到主要業務的主管機關。"],["郭委員昱晴：這本來就……對、對。"],["潘部長文忠：不是一個月內完成改隸啦，我跟委員報告，因為這需要兩個部會去做後續的討論作業。"],["郭委員昱晴：現在我還有另外一個問題，我擔心的是，因為如果依照財團法人法第四條，如果說兒福聯盟他們自己本身沒有要來做改隸動作的話，那教育部這邊……主管機關應該可以吧？"],["潘部長文忠：如果以這樣大比例的工作都不是文教基金會的任務嘛，因為這個本來就有一個法規依循……"],["郭委員昱晴：是。"],["潘部長文忠：我們會主動說這個已經不是……"],["郭委員昱晴：好、好。"],["潘部長文忠：甚至我們說你都不是……除非你改變你的任務、符合財團法人的規範，我想這個是教育部可以要求的。委員瞭解我的意思？"],["郭委員昱晴：好，我懂你的意思，所以主要是卡在時間的部分。"],["潘部長文忠：對，不要一個月完成改隸，這個我比較沒有把握……"],["郭委員昱晴：三個月可以嗎？三個月應該可以吧。"],["潘部長文忠：啟動啦！"],["郭委員昱晴：三個月內才啟動喔？啟動一個月內就可以了吧？"],["潘部長文忠：一個月內啟動啦！"],["郭委員昱晴：好。"],["主席：所以就變成「請教育部一個月內啟動，依規……」是不是這樣？一個月內啟動，OK嗎？"],["郭委員昱晴：對，啟動改隸，然後進行辦理，這樣子可以嗎？"],["主席：所以文字改這樣可以喔？"],["郭委員昱晴：「進行辦理」哦！這四個字很重要，「進行辦理」。"],["主席：進行辦理，好。因為我們的郭委員對這個案子非常……已經第六次質詢了，好不好？"],["潘部長文忠：這個也是好的方式。"],["主席：好吧，那就是一個月內啟動，可以嗎？郭委員，這個文字調整成這樣OK？"],["郭委員昱晴：可以。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：那我們就依照這個配合辦理。"],["主席：好，那就是修正文字完之後，你們就配合辦理。好，感謝，我們的臨時提案就處理到這個地方。有沒有人要補簽？若要補簽的話可以到主席台前面來做一個補簽，好不好？","我們現在繼續進行質詢。請登記第15號的徐富癸委員，質詢時間4分鐘，謝謝。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","盧縣一","萬美玲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","葉元之","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","吳春城","林倩綺","徐富癸","何欣純","黃仁","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","范雲","邱志偉","黃珊珊","劉建國"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修\n正草案」案、(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」\n案、( 三) 委員馬文君等17 人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草\n案」案、(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一\n條條文修正草案」案（僅進行詢答）","agenda_id":"1133901_00005"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.46846875,"end":11.016593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.117843750000002,"end":12.400343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.644718750000003,"end":21.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.67846875,"end":14.695343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.72909375,"end":15.353468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":20.31471875,"end":21.00659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.512843750000002,"end":37.98284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.354093750000004,"end":283.05846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.71659375,"end":308.03346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.76284375,"end":285.11721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":291.59721875,"end":291.81659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":295.12409375000004,"end":295.39409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.03346875,"end":317.61846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":314.19284375,"end":320.70659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":320.30159375,"end":323.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.56721875,"end":349.63034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":325.68471875,"end":326.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.63034375,"end":349.79909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":349.79909375,"end":417.88971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":349.90034375000005,"end":352.58346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":356.65034375000005,"end":360.22784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":374.03159375,"end":374.06534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":383.76846875,"end":384.02159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":384.22409375,"end":384.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":417.88971875000004,"end":481.15409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":480.78284375000004,"end":482.33534375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":481.69409375000004,"end":510.73596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":488.96721875000003,"end":489.99659375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":511.07346875,"end":578.37096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":578.84346875,"end":580.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":581.5772187499999,"end":581.9990937499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":582.74159375,"end":589.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":590.08221875,"end":591.6853437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":593.40659375,"end":594.1828437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":594.1828437500001,"end":597.4397187500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.4397187500001,"end":597.4734687499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":597.92909375,"end":597.9965937500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":597.9965937500001,"end":598.0303437499999},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":598.0303437499999,"end":617.6728437500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":605.0334687500001,"end":606.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":609.20159375,"end":611.17596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":612.5090937500001,"end":612.54284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":613.70721875,"end":615.0234687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":616.1372187500001,"end":622.11096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":618.58409375,"end":619.2084687500001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":621.41909375,"end":622.6172187500001}],"whisperx":[{"start":8.479,"end":28.844,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":38.707,"end":38.907,"text":"總整理"},{"start":56.978,"end":75.271,"text":"提供一些數據給我所以在第七條這個部分有關於專任教師的制度那我拿到的這個相關資料台灣的專任教師感覺好像近乎到零那通常都不是那個主管機關要招考然後都由學校來自行招考那感覺好像問題地方"},{"start":76.112,"end":81.995,"text":"提升代理教師的待遇,離島以外的地方主管機關很少公開徵選來禁用代理教師,學校是可以聘用無證的代理教師,但無證的代理教師也沒有辦法進行公費的施培。"},{"start":105.606,"end":121.622,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會"},{"start":128.309,"end":131.912,"text":"教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。 〈偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案〉"},{"start":154.051,"end":171.563,"text":"學校也沒有辦法再去把這兩組人做一個嫁接所以好像這個校長沒這個權限也感覺到有可用的人也無法用那第14條的這個部分行政減量其實早上也有很多人提到那很多委員這邊提到"},{"start":173.525,"end":176.789,"text":"教育部列席及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育部列席及文化委員會第2會期教育部列席及文化委員會"},{"start":190.686,"end":215.375,"text":"十七條有混零教學的這個部分我那邊找的資料是沒有就是目前好像很少這樣子的這個很少有學校這樣子做那好像這個施培體系也沒有混零教師的一個相關訓練那布裡面這邊是不是也可以做個回應那最後就是19條鼓勵成立區域教育的資源中心結果呢後來"},{"start":216.915,"end":239.626,"text":"發現全國目前好像還有三分之一的縣市沒有設立那偏遠的國中小最多的雲林、南投、屏東都沒有辦法設立這幾個部分我看教育部其實很多東西都做了數據這是我做的盤點所以部長這邊如果可以的話就把相關的資料跟數據提供給我但是我今天可能先針對兩個部分跟您這邊做一個討論"},{"start":242.347,"end":254.082,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第11個是有讓教師遍佈了全國但是偏鄉卻沒有老師可以來教那不知道部裡面這邊有沒有檢討一下這個問題我這邊的數據了解是21萬人有這個教師證可是9萬人沒有職缺"},{"start":258.907,"end":282.186,"text":"叫做流浪教師,可是偏鄉非都市地區又找不到老師,那這個部分不知道部裡面有沒有發現這樣一個問題,然後有沒有什麼處理的方式。不過我這邊因為只剩下一分多鐘,我就借用一下洪孟楷委員的話,部長請你就不要太費心,然後就精準的很快的回應這樣,可以嗎?"},{"start":284.267,"end":290.409,"text":"委員剛才所提到前面那六個議題因為招考這件事情一定是主管機關來辦理包含是學校或地方政府大概比較不適合全國辦一次這個爭試這個我想依規定跟用人權這才比較合適除非縣市委託中央辦但這個大概一般比較不會這麼做"},{"start":308.575,"end":308.835,"text":"檢討及處理事項,為何有這麼大的落差?"},{"start":324.451,"end":331.976,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育部列席就擬具:「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文修正草案案件事宜及文化委員會第18條條文"},{"start":346.587,"end":351.573,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":367.45,"end":384.299,"text":"縣市跟學校保留太多的缺額甚至偏鄉有達到三、四成保留所以最近這三年教育部逐一的盤點各縣市跟學校也強力的要求因為偏自準則是到8%為原則超過這麼多所以從陸續這三年幾乎每年都有將近5000個缺額釋放出來考試"},{"start":392.243,"end":416.197,"text":"這個一方面是讓具備教師證資格的老師有機會來任職那我們也請縣市要做一件事你開的缺一定不要忘記偏鄉學校的缺要開放出來因為你開的缺你甄選的人你才能到那邊嘛你不開缺他通通如果自由選擇當然都選擇到比較都會交通方便啊各方面的所以這個幾個背道說是這三年有非常明確的這樣的一個措施"},{"start":417.898,"end":420.3,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期"},{"start":435.455,"end":455.667,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會"},{"start":461.551,"end":463.932,"text":"九任讓大家待了好久才會有你講的錢問題是你講的錢如果除以每個月的話每個月才730塊你們算算看我不知道我有沒有算錯如果只有730塊所以我要8年以後才能而且現在應該還沒有人領到吧14年會是第一"},{"start":482.98,"end":510.343,"text":"一、四年我們都還不知道現在到底我不知道你們有沒有盤點說現在在明年可以領到的人有多少有8500個那我們明年再來檢視一下所以8年然後11年跟這個有經驗的教師能不能留下來其實我覺得有很大的原因所以我這邊很直接的提出來就是針對這個部分部裡面可不可以以誘因加在鼓勵跟獎金上面"},{"start":511.184,"end":528.635,"text":"教育部列席就不要讓大家那麼久才能領到這個錢,然後再者是獎金應該要提高,不要讓大家說我要熬這麼久,感覺好像我們在跟人家這個交換,所以是不是可以以誘因來取代等了很久的獎金,然後第二個部分是獎金要提高。"},{"start":530.135,"end":545.74,"text":"提醒一下很巧的一件事剛才有老師講到偏鄉雙語失智卻匱乏這不僅還帶領了一個問題像藝術跟師培教師到最後很多都會以雙語的條件來娶人所以這個部裡面可能要處理一下這件事情"},{"start":547.221,"end":550.383,"text":"最後,本席在3月5日問原住民族專班學生就業率所學的科系與職場相關性。"},{"start":570.177,"end":591.486,"text":"教育部,你們那怎麼辦?那要不然你就跟勞動部一起看怎麼處理嘛。總要解決嘛。要不然我們就這樣子,可以四年通通都要不到耶。好嗎?既然你們數據那麼強的話,可以嗎?部長這邊可以給我一個承諾嗎?要嘛就是你們教育部做,要不然你們就看勞動部,到最後給我一個結果。這個會期我一定要到啊。"},{"start":594.522,"end":621.473,"text":"主席已經站起來了,就是 either yes or no,可以嗎?委員我想我們跟勞動部再對焦一下,因為長期的整個職場的統計就在這個勞動單位,只是我們要不要請,拜託他們在有關委員關心的這個對象能夠聚焦,不然就是一直重複在做類似的事情。不是啦,就是給我一個數據的結果啦,這樣我才能夠進行下一步的了解,好嗎?謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152095","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152095","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db165f9ddd52052f690e12ebde737ab3c1955be169921a0a7178cca5bf7c21932e25ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"11:50:26 - 11:58:16","影片長度":"00:07:50","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員柯志恩等17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（詢答及處理，委員郭國文等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-10"},"duration":470,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:58:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:50:26+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":689,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（11時50分）主席、在場的委員先進、列席的政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、媒體記者女士先生。有請王部長、高副主委以及李次長。"],["主席：請王部長、高副主委。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：3位傑出的女性閣員，我今天的標題是「加薪調降營所稅，中小企業無意願；小店寬減營業稅，創業青年皆受惠」，橫批「杯水車薪」，為什麼這樣說呢？你看一看，現在你們的條文，我還記得部長你的報告裡面寫，目前中小企業有160萬家，從業人員有913萬人，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：看起來推出這個方案有這麼多人受惠，你認為是不是這樣？"],["王部長美花：其實不是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是，那我們來看一下你們的受益人數，根據你們的稅式支出評估，這是你們提的，要減稅嘛！你們大概每年最高可以誘發將近2萬人，最少也有2,500人，是8倍之多啊！高低差差這麼多。平均加薪的話，大概一個人一年多1.6萬，大概一個月多一千三，請問什麼樣的行業、什麼樣的規模，公司員工可以加到薪？你認為在你們這個草案之下。"],["王部長美花：我們這個草案確實是針對中小企業，第一個，它有需要繳稅，而且它不適用擴大書審的……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有繳營所稅。"],["王部長美花：對。"],["鍾委員佳濱：很好，說得很好。李次長，剛剛說擴大書審，財政部很明白地說，中小企業當中6成商家無意願，我現在這個數字102萬是指有在申報營所稅的，其中的擴大書審就是年營業規模3,000萬以下，純益率大概平均6%，其中這62萬家就是剛剛部長所說的，擴大書審的大概意願不高，為什麼？27萬家獨資合夥組織，年所得多少？這家公司一年賺二十六萬六，一家公司一年收入扣掉支出只賺二十六萬六，再把這些扣除額扣一扣，它幾乎不太要繳營所稅，次長，是不是這樣？"],["李次長慶華：跟委員報告，其實我們目前……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我用平均來算你們給我的數字是這樣。"],["李次長慶華：我先說明一下，因為我們獨資合夥的組織目前不用繳一毛錢的營利事業所得稅。"],["鍾委員佳濱：是嘛！好，把這個扣掉，還剩下35萬家公司組織，我更嚇一跳，我拿到你們的資料告訴我平均年所得五萬五啊！開一家公司，一年賺5萬5,000元。"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，因為目前擴大書審它是有一定金額……"],["鍾委員佳濱：有很多的殭屍公司，我知道。"],["李次長慶華：對，而且它收入……"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我要告訴你，就是因為這62萬家扣掉，其實本來給他們的擴大書審純益率6%，大概已經不用繳什麼稅了，所以事實上我們扣一扣，大概是這樣子。","至於這個方案的適用對象，其實中小企業的平均人數大概不到6個人，5.79人，這62萬家沒有什麼意願的中小企業扣一扣，有360萬的員工基本上不會受你們的方案所涵蓋，那我們目前有910萬個從業人員，王部長，是不是這樣子？所以有4成的就業人口是這個方案照顧不到的，是不是這樣子？部長，我這樣算沒錯嘛？數學還可以啦？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以經濟部已經盡力了，真的盡力了，因為他們照顧的是比較大的公司。接下來請次長跟國發會副主委，我先問次長。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：部長謝謝，你先休息，因為你盡力了，盡全力了。接下來是財政部的事，怎麼說呢？我那時候不斷在跟您提出，我們目前的微型企業，就是小店家月營業額未達20萬的，有將近52萬家，免開統一發票，但是我主張他們也全部都免稅，你知道我很熟悉這個議題。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在月營業額8萬以上的還是要課1%的營業稅，這個大概占了30萬家。好，如果我們把小店家20萬到50萬營業規模的，有高達66萬3,000家，我為什麼主張稅率1%呢？你看一看，你們2022年的營業稅總額是5,444億，小規模營業人就是最前面那52萬家只占了34.7億，占我們營業稅0.64%的貢獻度。比微型企業再大一點的小店家，員工人數是2到5人，如果你把它的營業稅寬減為1%的話，大概一年可以省下9.6萬到24萬，它可以讓員工，其實不是員工啦！這種小店家的老闆是「頭家兼摃鐘」，差不多啦！","國發會副主委，您看一下，這是目前GDP分配面的統計，其中住宿及餐飲業的受僱人數薪酬占比是最高的，也就是說它的營業額大部分是支付在員工的薪水上、人事成本上，但是它的薪資是最低的，其實我們講青年低薪資是大概低在哪裡？低在這些餐飲業，因為剛出來嘛！還沒有什麼技術，很多都是餐飲業，甚至青年創業、加盟店大概都是餐飲業，是不是這樣子？結果這些人是受僱薪資最低的，他們根本沒有進入到你們減稅加薪的範圍，它的員工報酬占比最高，因為它賺來的錢大部分都付在人事上，那營業盈餘的占比也是最低，是裡面最不會賺錢的公司，賺錢賺最少的公司，同不同意？"],["高副主任委員仙桂：我完全同意委員的說法。"],["鍾委員佳濱：那我們針對這些人，他們才是我們真正要照顧的人，不是經濟部在管的台積電那些公司的受僱員工啊！次長，最後這是你的問題了，你的需求了，行動支付的優惠是不是明年到期？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：當時是在哪一位行政院長任內推動的？2018年行政院長是賴清德，那是為了鼓勵年輕人，小規模營業人導入行動支付，年輕人很歡迎，他的實體商店因為這樣的關係，可以得到1%營業稅的優惠，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：青年都很歡迎很肯定，副主委，這個政策我不知道當時是誰跟賴清德院長建議的，財政部也被迫接受了，雖然他們不是很情願，但是實際的優惠讓青年受益很多，可是明年就要到期，次長，可不可以也把它展延擴大適用，給我剛剛說的，20萬以上開統一發票，未達50萬月營業額的特定項目的行業別，尤其是餐飲業，也給它1%的優惠？"],["李次長慶華：委員，雖然我們這個制度有推動，剛才委員也說很受年輕人的歡迎，但是依照我們實際統計的結果，很多的小店家其實使用以後，它並沒有真正……"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長，我沒想到你這麼認真，說了實話。"],["李次長慶華：對，它並沒有真正……"],["鍾委員佳濱：就是你們的效果其實沒有肥到豬，肥到狗去了。"],["李次長慶華：就是那個使用的比例很低啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以我才說要調整，我只是不好意思說你們當時候用意很好，但是方向姿勢錯誤，沒有肥到豬，肥到狗去了。我希望你們把目標調整一下，年輕人不是只有受薪低薪而已，年輕人創業占很大的部分，這些小老闆、兩夫妻創業、加盟店，如果能夠把這個方式轉移到這些小規模營業人，會有很大的幫助，願不願意回去再度評估一下？"],["李次長慶華：委員的建議我們會再評估。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝，謝謝主席。"],["主席：請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":510,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-10","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","賴士葆","邱議瑩","張智倫","郭國文","陳亭妃","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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26萬元的公司今年只支出扣掉收入扣掉支出只佔26萬6再把這些扣除而扣一扣他幾乎銀索稅不太用繳是不是這樣?次長?呃柯委員報告其實我們目前我是用平均來算你們給我的數字是這樣我先說明一下因為我們獨資合夥的組織目前他就不用繳一毛錢的銀索稅是嗎?好那把這個扣掉了對還剩下35萬元的公司組織我更嚇一跳我拿到你們的資料告訴我平均年所得5萬5啊"},{"start":156.204,"end":158.746,"text":"adequate 公司進一趟五萬五千塊。"},{"start":180.071,"end":203.06,"text":"其實呢,中小企業的平均人數大概不到6個人,5.79。這62萬家沒有什麼意願的中小企業扣一扣,有360萬的員工啊,他基本上呢,他不會受你們的方案所涵蓋啊。那我們目前多少?910萬個從業人員,王部長是不是這樣子?所以有4成的人,他在就業的人口是這個方案照顧到的,是不是這樣子?"},{"start":203.66,"end":204.42,"text":"財政部的事了,怎麼說呢?"},{"start":226.409,"end":246.621,"text":"現在我那時候不斷在跟您提出我們目前的微型企業就是月營業額小店家未達20萬的有將近52萬家免開統一發票但是呢我主張他們也全部都免稅這個你知道我很熟悉這個議題現在是要8萬以上的月營業額到1萬以上的還要課1%的營業稅"},{"start":248.683,"end":270.847,"text":"adequa 呢大概佔了大概三十萬家好那如果我們把小店家二十萬到五十萬營業規模的有高達六十六萬三千家那我為什麼主張稅率一趴呢你看一看齁你們二零二年的營業稅的總額是五千四百四十四億小規模營業人就最前面那五十二萬家呢只佔了三十四點七億佔我們營業稅營業稅的零點六十的貢獻度好那這個"},{"start":274.881,"end":285.612,"text":"議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。」案。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。案。議員柯志恩等19人擬具:「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案案。案。"},{"start":297.484,"end":323.518,"text":"來你看一下齁目前這是我們GDP的分部面的統計其中住宿跟餐飲業他的受僱人數他的薪酬的占比是最高的也就是說他們的營業額大部分是支付在員工的薪水上人事成本上但是呢他的薪資是最低的其實我們講青年低薪是在低在哪裡低在這些餐飲業因為剛出來嘛還有什麼技術很多都是餐飲業甚至青年創業"},{"start":324.957,"end":347.022,"text":""},{"start":347.122,"end":364.802,"text":"我完全同意那個問題。好,那我針對這些人,他們才是我們真的要照顧的人,不是經濟部所管的那些台積的那些公司的受僱員工啊。好,來次長,最後是你的問題了,你的需求了。有沒有這個行動支付的優惠明年到期?是。當時這個是為什麼?誰?誰的?哪一位行政院黨在那裡推動的?"},{"start":367.062,"end":385.272,"text":"2018年,行政院長是賴清德。但是為了鼓勵年輕人、小規模營業人導入行動之戶,年輕人很歡迎。他這樣子的話,他的實體商店,他因為這樣的關係可以得到一趴營業稅的優惠,對不對?是。青年都很歡迎、很肯定。副主委。"},{"start":386.629,"end":414.276,"text":"這個政策我覺得不知道當時誰跟賴新德院長建議的財政部也被迫接受了雖然他們不是很情願但是實際的優惠青年受益很多但是明年就到期來接下來次長可不可以我們也把這樣的一個展演擴大試用給我剛剛說的20萬以上開統一發票未達50萬月營業額的特定項目的行業別尤其是餐飲業也給他一趴的一個這樣的優惠"},{"start":416.45,"end":431.209,"text":"委員雖然我們這個制度有推動啦但是剛才委員講說承受年輕人的歡迎但是依照我們實際上就是去統計的結果就是很多的小店家他其實使用了以後他他並沒有真正我沒想到你這麼認真說了實話對"},{"start":432.69,"end":456.312,"text":"就是你們的效果其實呢,就是那個使用的比例很低啦,對。所以我才說,要調整,我只是不好意思說,你們當時用意很好,但是方向姿勢錯誤。所以我希望你們把目標調整一下。年輕人不是只有壽星、地星而已,年輕人創業的占很大的部分。這些小老闆,兩夫妻創業、加盟店,"},{"start":456.992,"end":466.473,"text":"他們如果能夠把這個方式轉移到對這些小公民業的,會有很大幫助。願不願意回去再度評估一下?我一直建議我們會再評估。好,謝謝。謝謝主席。"}]}},{"id":"152092","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152092","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db19d2fdf2a210869dad575e50b9cd8685a55be169921a0a7176a1a6418575a0b1b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李彥秀","委員發言時間":"11:44:07 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11:51:02","影片長度":"00:06:55","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員王育敏等19人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【以上議案，如經復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-14"},"duration":415,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:51:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:44:07+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":816,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（11時44分）謝謝召委，我請部長。"],["主席：好，請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["李委員彥秀：部長雖然快要離開這個位置，階段性的角色，但是我覺得重點，重要的理念跟想法，我還是要再一次確認。部長，我們來看一下，裡面有哪幾句話是你說的？這個表格裡面哪幾句話是你說的，你記得嗎？哪一句？部長，哪幾句話是你說的？"],["薛部長瑞元：第四個那個，涉及修法的那個，還有第五個破壞整個健保總額制度，不是一個條文就能夠處理的。"],["李委員彥秀：第五個？"],["薛部長瑞元：是。"],["李委員彥秀：不是一個條文就可以處理，要從長計議，還有哪一個？涉及修法如果朝野立委一致同意，沒有什麼難度對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["李委員彥秀：好，這答案就出來了。你個人到底認為，在這個位置上這麼久，在衛福部也擔任這麼久的時間，你覺得朝向1比1到底合不合理？1點1塊錢到底合不合理？"],["薛部長瑞元：這就是整個總額制度要重新……"],["李委員彥秀：你覺得這個目標到底合不合理？這個目標到底對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個不是目標對不對的問題，是整個制度要去重新再……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道制度當然要有配套措施，但是目標對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：目標的話，這要看啦！其實真的是要看……"],["李委員彥秀：那你要去打臉一下賴清德。"],["薛部長瑞元：因為你……"],["李委員彥秀：賴清德說1點1塊錢是重大的目標，你跟他的理念不同。今天你講的，就是你當時在選前的時候，1月9日講的是，如果朝野立委一致同意的話，其實沒有什麼困難度，你後面又提到說要從長計議，其實我覺得這個是選前的薛部長跟選後的薛部長，兩個標準不同的態度，在我看來是這樣子。"],["薛部長瑞元：應該不是這樣子。"],["李委員彥秀：部長我時間不多，我也不跟你探討，但是禮拜二的時候醫護團體就來陳情，有大動作的，因為我們目前把總額制度的問題都推給醫界。我想你我都非常清楚，我們多項醫療的服務點值，很久都沒有調整了，現在一顆滷蛋在便當裡面從10塊、12塊、15塊、18塊，到現在加一顆滷蛋有些要加到20塊。有一些便當店比較有名的要加到20塊、22塊，甚至25塊的都有，但是我們的醫療服務點值，多年都沒有調整過。","我想你比我更清楚，而且我們無論從分區管理、斷頭、核刪到攤扣跟自清等等介入，最後點值被扣的亂七八糟。從91年健保實施以來，我們的點值從來沒有達到1塊錢，所以這也是醫界長期的目標。這也是為什麼賴清德在面對醫界的時候，選前才丟出來我們要向1點1塊錢的目標來邁進。我們的醫療服務的價值其實是長期被低估的，所以我們也看到這個表，每一年醫界都要吸收健保總額上百億左右的缺口。","所以這樣的缺口造成我們醫療院所沒有辦法好好去落實更多更好的政策，包括分級醫療、醫療服務費等等，其實這些都很難讓我們醫事人員願意留任。我們常常在說醫界五大皆空，大家都在做血汗，這也是為什麼我們可以支持1點1塊錢的目標。這個是長期以來，我長期在衛環的想法，我很訝異你覺得這個目標你沒有辦法支持，我覺得你坐在這個位子上，我很訝異你這樣子講。"],["薛部長瑞元：我不是說這個……"],["李委員彥秀：所以剛才賴士葆委員說，其實你還是可以去爭取，林右昌內政部長在最後一個禮拜，都還可以給里長春節慰問金，他也爭取到，你比他「細漢」嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：不是這樣說……"],["李委員彥秀：你要去爭取啊！還是在交接過程當中，你還沒有跟邱泰源溝通，還是你還沒有跟我們賴清德底下的陳志鴻溝通？這個都沒有交接到嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個不是交接的問題，交接我有跟……"],["李委員彥秀：欸！這個是政策延續的問題……"],["薛部長瑞元：我有跟邱……"],["李委員彥秀：部長，你同意這個是政策延續性的問題，這是賴清德重要的政策，你知道嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：委員我說一下，我跟邱部長有交接，這個事情他知道。但是你剛剛提到陳志鴻老師，他從來沒有問我這個問題。"],["李委員彥秀：他就是規劃賴清德重要的醫療政策，你知道啦！"],["薛部長瑞元：對，但是他沒有跟我徵詢過。"],["李委員彥秀：但我覺得這個政策是延續性的，特別都是民進黨執政。"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["李委員彥秀：這是賴清德重要的目標，我可以接受未來有審查機制在裡面，畢竟有一些不良的醫界少數，我同意，但是我覺得這個目標是長期，我覺得衛福部我們長期在衛環，每一個朝野的委員都支持，我很訝異你今天在這個態度上轉了180度的彎。"],["薛部長瑞元：我講一句話就好，如果點值1點1元是通過的，也沒有辦法保證剛剛委員所講的，分級醫療、醫護的薪水可以上升這些，沒有辦法保證那一個，所以……"],["李委員彥秀：對，我覺得政策目標有太多事情都要去努力，但是不能因為說，你沒有辦法保證，分級醫療也是長期你們應該去努力的啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：是啊！"],["李委員彥秀：健保點值不要讓醫界血汗，也是你應該的，每一項都是在現場我們……"],["薛部長瑞元：但它無法用1點1元去達到這個目的。"],["李委員彥秀：我覺得每一個政策都應該想辦法落實，我們的醫療政策才會更完整，我們剛才在自豪，我們的健保制度是全世界前五名，我們很驕傲。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有錯啊！"],["李委員彥秀：所以更要留住醫護……"],["薛部長瑞元：對啊！所以我們要做一些同步改革。"],["李委員彥秀：同步改革也是賴清德說的目標，所以看你們怎麼兌現。"],["薛部長瑞元：1點1元是我們其中一個目標，但是……"],["李委員彥秀：對嘛！同步改革嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：但是要達到還需要……"],["李委員彥秀：但是今天召委排的題目在這裡嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：還需要其他的一些方案必須要來做配合。"],["主席：好，謝謝。"],["李委員彥秀：我知道啦！部長，趕快去爭取，趕快去交接，我們希望你在這件事情上可以像林右昌一樣，交接前幫醫界朝這個目標邁進，爭取到預算，林右昌可以，薛瑞元也可以。"],["薛部長瑞元：謝謝委員。"],["主席：好，謝謝李彥秀委員，接下來我們請盧縣一委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-14","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","黃秀芳","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","劉建國","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","賴士葆","李彥秀","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","賴惠員","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；二、委員蘇清\n泉等27人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康\n保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.50346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.91159375,"end":9.396593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.42159375,"end":12.383468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.180343750000002,"end":16.75409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.20971875,"end":28.87034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":29.32596875,"end":31.87409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.09346875,"end":33.03846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.190343750000004,"end":35.23221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.22346875,"end":37.86471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.68721875,"end":40.09221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.205968750000004,"end":52.61346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.34096875,"end":42.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.61346875,"end":53.25471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.63034375,"end":52.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.689093750000005,"end":57.18659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.77721875,"end":58.35096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.91221875,"end":62.55284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.04284375,"end":59.29596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.000343750000006,"end":61.38846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.789093750000006,"end":63.78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bicyn 您覺得這個目標到底合不合理?這個目標到底對不對?"},{"start":95.384,"end":115.128,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":115.128,"end":130.145,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":130.145,"end":148.643,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":148.643,"end":166.766,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":166.766,"end":181.869,"text":""},{"start":181.869,"end":203.046,"text":"�"},{"start":203.046,"end":229.445,"text":""},{"start":229.765,"end":254.622,"text":"這是長期啊我長期在未還我的想法我很訝異說你覺得這個目標你沒有辦法支持我覺得你坐在這個位置上我很訝異你這樣子講所以剛才賴視法委員講說其實你還是可以去爭取林佑昌內政部長在最後一個禮拜都還可以給里長春節慰問金他也爭取到你比他小一點對不對不是這樣說嘛"},{"start":257.163,"end":267.934,"text":" bicyn 您要去爭取啊還是在交接過程當你還沒有跟邱太元溝通還是你還沒有跟我們賴清德底下私底下的陳志宏溝通這個都沒有交接到嗎"},{"start":270.801,"end":295.953,"text":"這個不是交接的問題。交接我有跟邱…這個是政策延續的問題。市長,部長你同意這個是政策延續性的問題。這是耐心的重要的政策,你知道嘛。因為委員,我說一下,就是說我跟邱部長,現在邱部長有交接,這個事情他知道。但是你剛剛提到陳志宏老師那個,他沒有,從來沒有問我這件問題。"},{"start":297.874,"end":313.626,"text":" bicyn 它就是規劃賴清德重要的醫療政策,你知道啦。但是我覺得這個政策是延續性的,特別都是民進黨執政。這是賴清德重要的目標。我可以接受未來有審查機制在裡面。"},{"start":314.326,"end":314.566,"text":"我講一句話就好。"},{"start":333.064,"end":347.415,"text":"如果說這點子1.1元的話是通過的,也沒有辦法保證剛剛委員所講的分級醫療、醫護的這個薪水可以上升這些,沒有辦法保證那個。"},{"start":348.456,"end":361.482,"text":"所以我覺得政策目標對太多事情都要去努力但是不能因為說你沒有辦法保證分級醫療也是長期你們應該去努力的啊然後健保點是不要讓醫界做血汗也是你應該的每一項都是在現場用一點語言去達到這個目的"},{"start":366.937,"end":396.937,"text":"�"},{"start":397.077,"end":397.778,"text":"好 謝謝理研究委員"}]}},{"id":"152091","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152091","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1329fb734ada36ea8e12ebde737ab3c1955be169921a0a71724b705b4f41e143b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"11:42:56 - 11:50:18","影片長度":"00:07:22","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員柯志恩等17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（詢答及處理，委員郭國文等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-10"},"duration":442,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:50:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:42:56+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":668,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（11時43分）主席好，各位官員、各位委員，大家早安，有請部長。"],["主席：我們再請王部長，謝謝。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝部長。其實今天我們來討論中小企業發展條例加薪減稅的修法草案，我覺得非常有意義，因為我本身是年輕人，也是一位會計師，過去長期以來，臺灣這個低薪問題的確影響到非常多的年輕人，所以我這邊還是要拜託部長，我們要幫年輕人來發聲，不管是年輕人的就業，不要畢業的時候即失業，還有低薪的問題，包括未來他創業的部分，政府應該也要給予多一點的鼓勵措施，不管是讓年輕人有創業的基金、貸款或是媒合企業一起來協助創業，我覺得都是非常重要的事情，未來拜託部長也可以繼續幫忙。","這邊要請教部長，當然這個不在今天修法的內容裡面，針對中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二，在第二項裡面有提到，在逗號後面有提到「得就非因法定最低工資調整而增加支付本國籍現職基層員工」，本席認為如果這個法令這樣子去修，是不是代表如果政府有調基本工資的話，企業在加薪的這個部分就不能在抵稅150%的範圍是嗎？"],["王部長美花：就是它的加薪不可以是因為政府的基本工資調升而算在內，指的是這個意思。"],["張委員智倫：對，我跟部長的想法是一致的，所以這邊特別拜託部長，其實我認為過去以來就是因為這個加薪減稅的條例誘因不足，所以適用的員工人數很少，企業很少，所以本席建議，未來院版的部分是不是可以把這一條拿掉？簡單來講，就是不要在企業爭取減稅的部分，還要跟企業主這邊來爭取這麼一點點的稅負，部長，你懂我的意思嗎？不要說反正大家都已經有幫企業加稅，我們都是以掌聲鼓勵，只要企業主有幫員工、年輕人，不管是24歲以下或者是45歲以上，有幫他加薪就好了，不要讓他抵稅的額度再降低，我認為這個稅負只有一點點，不管是鼓勵企業主或鼓勵員工這部分，部長是不是可以來考慮一下？不要讓企業有一種穿小鞋的感覺，不然未來我們都希望法定的最低工資可以調越高越好，可是如果這樣的話，企業減稅誘因就減少了，這樣會不會有一點讓企業穿小鞋，有點本末倒置？部長，拜託你回答一下。"],["王部長美花：但是這個部分其實是希望企業主在基本工資之外再多加薪，如果像委員說的……"],["張委員智倫：沒錯，我們都希望大家多加薪，如果基本工資有調高，是不是不要讓抵稅的金額降低？我覺得這個是立意良善，大家可以比高，最低工資也調高，企業主也調高薪資，大家來比調高，然後不管如何調高都可以抵稅，請部長三思，好不好？"],["王部長美花：好，我們再討論。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝部長。這邊我也要請教一個比較特別的，當然臺灣都在推廣運動，這個問題我不曉得部長可不可以回答，尤其我們臺灣在幫企業減稅的部分，常常給企業穿小鞋。在運動發展條例裡面有一個規定，如果捐贈到1,500萬以上，捐贈的企業可以抵150%的稅負，在這裡面也有一個讓企業穿小鞋的部分，就是在抵稅超過1,500萬以上的部分，抵稅的金額需要把它放在所得基本稅額裡面去做試算，超過的部分還要補繳12%的稅，所以讓這些大型企業覺得你口上說讓我抵20%，可是事實上，在基本所得稅額裡面又說我要補繳12%的稅，只能抵8%，所以我認為很多政府立意良善的部分，不要讓企業穿小鞋啦！而且讓他們抵稅的誘因下降，是不是請部長回答？還是你要請……"],["王部長美花：是不是請財政部回答？"],["張委員智倫：這個放在申報書其他的部分，很奇怪。"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，基本上是這樣子，因為我們現在有最低稅負制這個制度，主要就是希望企業或個人不要因為過度享受太多的租稅優惠而沒有繳納任何稅負，或者是繳納極少數的稅負，所以現在我們的條文本身就有規定，假設你有新的租稅優惠措施的話，我們是可以公告你那個超額的部分要納入基本所得來……"],["張委員智倫：沒錯，政次講得非常好，就是因為這樣的條例，你有沒有跟企業去溝通一下？就是這樣子的問題，讓企業覺得政府的租稅誘因不是這麼大方，會降低他們捐贈來鼓勵運動的意願，所以請政次這邊是不是去訪察一下民意？這一條在申報書的部分是不是把它拿掉？參考一下，好不好？因為一直來講，我們今天在討論這麼多的問題就是誘因不足啊！剛剛我講的這兩點，就是企業跟民間要增稅的一個感覺，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：是，因為教育部有統計資料，我們可以去了解他們目前捐贈的狀況，也讓委員了解一下，提供給委員參考。"],["張委員智倫：好，再拜託一下。最後再拜託主席，最後1分鐘的時間。今天我們國民黨黨團有提出來，跟部長請教，今天就是因為誘因不足，所以把原本可以減稅的部分從130%調到150%，院版的不是調到150%嗎？本黨團是調到200%，請部長回答，你認為調到150%以後，能申請的企業會比原本增加多少？"],["王部長美花：有，我們有做相關的研究，如果調到150%以後，在增僱的部分大概接近4,000人，在加薪的部分大概有五千八百多人可以來利用這個新的制度。"],["張委員智倫：感謝部長。因為我自己手上有一份資料讓我相當訝異，過去105年的時候只有196人來申請，剛剛部長特別講出來，只要增加到150%，其實就有大幅度的成長，所以國民黨黨團為了幫助年輕人，幫助24歲以下的年輕人以及45歲以上未來青壯世代的人，本黨團提出200%就是希望可以精益求精，好又再更好，所以拜託，我們不分黨派，各位官員我們今天一起來努力推動，以上，謝謝。"],["主席（呂委員玉玲代）：請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":510,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-10","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","賴士葆","邱議瑩","張智倫","郭國文","陳亭妃","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra Kacaw","張啓楷","呂玉玲","蔡易餘","洪孟楷","邱志偉","鍾佳濱","賴瑞隆","陳冠廷","陳培瑜","張嘉郡","黃國昌","陳超明","牛煦庭","羅廷瑋"],"page_start":419,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133801","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133801_00007"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查：一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案；二、本院委員柯志恩等\n17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案；三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬\n具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案；四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中\n小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案；五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業\n發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案；六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例\n部分條文修正草案」案；七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正\n草案」案；八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及\n第四十條條文修正草案」案；九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、\n第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案；十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展\n條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案；十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例\n部分條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133801_00006"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.03096875,"end":13.800968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.982218750000001,"end":17.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.22221875,"end":19.21784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":19.94346875,"end":21.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":26.305343750000002,"end":26.37284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":26.37284375,"end":27.01409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.26721875,"end":30.254093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.726593750000003,"end":52.056593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.157843750000005,"end":83.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.13596875,"end":85.23284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.60409375,"end":106.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":106.95096875,"end":114.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":114.59534375000001,"end":118.34159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":117.24471875,"end":122.27346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":119.60721875,"end":120.01221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.61096875000001,"end":127.65659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.96034375,"end":139.11471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.33409375000002,"end":140.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.71784375000001,"end":147.65346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.94034375,"end":163.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":164.17409375,"end":166.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.02596875,"end":172.44284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":172.83096875,"end":178.95659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":179.00721875000002,"end":186.38159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":185.53784375,"end":195.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.70534375000003,"end":214.86659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.25471875000002,"end":217.38096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":217.63409375,"end":219.11909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":219.62534375,"end":219.72659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.08096875,"end":236.02784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":236.58471875,"end":265.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":265.71096875,"end":271.88721875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":272.41034375000004,"end":282.55221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":282.73784375,"end":283.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":283.96971875,"end":284.42534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":284.42534375,"end":287.36159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":286.55159375,"end":286.66971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":287.07471875000005,"end":315.64409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":314.07471875000005,"end":328.57034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":328.90784375000004,"end":348.16221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.89346875,"end":339.91034375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":339.91034375000004,"end":339.97784375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":339.97784375000003,"end":340.04534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":340.04534375000003,"end":340.12971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":340.12971875,"end":340.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":347.92596875000004,"end":356.58284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":355.50284375,"end":365.05409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.17221875,"end":383.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":384.15659375,"end":394.46721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":394.85534375000003,"end":394.93971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":395.07471875000005,"end":404.77784375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":404.82846875,"end":439.18596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":405.73971875,"end":405.97596875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":405.97596875000005,"end":406.11096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":406.11096875000004,"end":406.14471875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.14471875000004,"end":406.17846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":406.17846875000004,"end":406.66784375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.75,"end":20.666,"text":"請張志倫委員請做詢談。那我們今天中午不休息,延長開會。謝謝。我們也歡迎副主委、國防會副主委、主秘在現場。謝謝共同討論。來,請發言。主席好。各位官員、各位委員,大家早安。我們是有請部長。我們再請王部長。謝謝。"},{"start":26.785,"end":46.197,"text":"好,謝謝部長。其實今天我們來討論這個中小企業發展條例加薪減稅的一個修法的一個草案,我覺得非常有意義。因為本身也是年輕人,也是一位會計師。過去長期以來,台灣這個低薪問題的確影響到非常年輕人,所以我這邊還是要拜託部長。"},{"start":46.957,"end":69.581,"text":"我們要幫年輕人來發聲不管是年輕人的就業不要就是畢業的時候及失業低薪的問題那未來他創業的部分政府應該要給予多一點的這個鼓勵措施不管是讓那個年輕人有就業創業的基金貸款或是媒合企業一起來協助創業我覺得都是非常重要的事情未來拜託部長也可以繼續幫忙好那這邊請教部長"},{"start":73.082,"end":89.219,"text":"針對我們今天,當然今天這不在修法的內容裡面,針對這個中小企業發展條例三十六條之二第二項裡面有提到,痘號後面有提到,得救非因法定最低工資調整而增加支付本國現職基層員工的這個部分,"},{"start":91.781,"end":104.732,"text":"那本席在這邊會認為說,如果這個法令有這樣子去修,代表的是不是說,如果政府有條基本工資的話,那政府的企業在加薪的這個部分就不能再抵稅150%的範圍是嗎?"},{"start":107.154,"end":126.601,"text":"就是他的加薪的,他的加薪不可以是因為政府的這個基本工資的調升而都算在內,指的是這個意思。對,所以我跟部長的想法是一致的。所以這邊再也拜託部長,其實我認為過去以來就是因為這個加薪減稅的條例的誘因不足,所以這個"},{"start":127.961,"end":151.374,"text":""},{"start":151.454,"end":172.207,"text":"就是不要說只要企業的企業主有幫員工年輕人不管是24歲以下或者是45歲以上有幫他加薪就好不要再讓他抵稅的部分的那個額度能再降低我認為這稅負只有一點點可是讓這個不管是鼓勵企業主或鼓勵員工這部分是不是部長可以來考慮一下"},{"start":172.807,"end":191.186,"text":"觀眾謙虛"},{"start":191.266,"end":218.263,"text":"adequate 公司之外再多加薪沒錯沒錯我們都希望說大家多加薪是不是說不要這一塊如果基本公司有調高的這一部分喔是不是不要讓這個抵稅的部分抵稅的金額降低啊好那這個是我覺得是一個利益良善大家都希望大家可以比高最低公司也調高企業主也調高薪資大家來比調高然後不管如何調高都可以抵稅請部長三思啦好不好好我們再討論是是"},{"start":220.114,"end":235.03,"text":"好,那謝謝部長。那這邊我也要請教一個大家比較特別的,當然台灣都在推廣運動啦,那這我不知道部長可不可以回答。尤其就在我們台灣常常這個幫企業減稅的部分,常常給企業穿小鞋。在運動發展條例裡面有一個規定是1500萬以上。"},{"start":236.97,"end":264.09,"text":"如果捐贈到1500萬以上捐贈的企業可以抵150%的稅負在這裡面也有一個讓企業穿小鞋的部分就是說在抵稅超過1500萬以上的部分抵稅的這個金額需要把它放在這個所得基本稅額裡面來去做一個試算如果超過的部分還要補繳12%的稅所以讓這些大型企業覺得說那我這樣你讓我口上說讓我抵這個20%"},{"start":265.791,"end":282.245,"text":"可是事實上在基本所得稅額裡面又說讓我要補繳12%的稅只能抵8%所以我認為說很多政府利益良善的部分不要讓企業穿小鞋而且讓他們這個抵稅誘因下降是不是請部長回答還是你要請"},{"start":283.145,"end":297.522,"text":"對,是不是請財政部回答?這個放在申報書其他的部分啦,很奇怪。報告委員,基本上是這樣子,因為我們現在就是有那個所謂最低稅負制這個制度主要就是希望就是說企業或個人不要因為過度享受太多的租稅優惠而"},{"start":297.722,"end":316.681,"text":""},{"start":316.701,"end":342.882,"text":"就是因為這樣的條例你有沒有跟企業去溝通一下就是這樣子的問題讓企業覺得有在幫這個政府租稅誘因有讓企業覺得說不是這麼的大方會降低他們捐贈的一個鼓勵運動的一個意願是不是所以請政事這邊是不是去訪查一下民意是不是這一條在申報書的部分把它拿掉參考一下好不好因為一直來講我們今天在討論這麼多的問題就是誘因不足"},{"start":343.822,"end":368.838,"text":"剛剛我講的這兩點就是企業跟民間要徵稅的一個感覺啦,好不好?是,委員我們可以把,我們因為這個教育部有統計資料,我們其實可以去了解一下他們事實上目前捐贈的狀況,讓委員了解一下,提供給委員參考。好,再拜託一下,好那最後再拜託主席最後一分鐘的時間齁。那今天我們國民黨的這個黨團的提出來齁,因為跟部長請教齁,因為今天就是要誘因不足啊。"},{"start":369.578,"end":383.516,"text":"所以我們把這個原本可以減稅的部分從百分之一百三十調到一百五十,原本的不是調到一百五十嗎?那本檔呢是調到兩百,請部長回答你認為調到一百五十了以後,能申請的企業會比原本的增加多少?"},{"start":384.415,"end":404.214,"text":"有,我們這個有做一個相關的這個研究齁,那如果調到150以後呢,大概在增僱的部分可以大概接近4000人啦齁,那在加薪的部分大概有這個5800多人可以來利用這個新的制度,是。"},{"start":404.895,"end":432.99,"text":"感謝部長,因為我自己手上有一篇資料相當讓我訝異,過去105年的時候只有196個人來做申請,那剛剛部長特別講出來只要增加到150其實就有大幅度的成長,所以國民黨黨團為了幫助年輕人,24歲以下年輕人以及45上的未來不管是青壯代時代的人,我們本黨團提出200%就是需要說,部長我們可以經濟求精好又更再好,"},{"start":433.45,"end":438.668,"text":"所以拜託我們不分黨派,各位觀眾我們今天一起來努力推動。以上,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152090","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152090","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db13f0aa94da6d6b5900cbbe991ada1931c55be169921a0a7179817037465c880e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳春城","委員發言時間":"11:39:16 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11:48:30","影片長度":"00:09:14","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答)【4月29日及5月2日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":554,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:48:30+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:39:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":743,"blocks":[["吳委員春城：（11時39分）謝謝。有請潘部長。"],["主席：請部長。"],["潘部長文忠：委員好。"],["吳委員春城：很高興又看到部長。我今天的標題是希望啟動第三人生大學，能否成為潘部長在520之前給世代的答禮，就像你在這個舞臺上要謝幕，而未來還有更大的舞台等待著你。我覺得非常高興，在這兩個多月之間跟你的互動，也得到你的承諾，但不曉得這個第三人生大學的專責推動小組會繼續下去嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，我覺得很必要，也要謝謝委員一直在利用這樣的機會，將這樣的意見來給政府部門做參考。就教育部門而言，我覺得很必要，過往我們雖然有一些基礎，但我覺得一定要再往前，所以當時我說除了推動小組，李毓娟司長也跟我說委員的這個建議，可能要跨單位，所以他們很快也就簽出這個專案小組要由一位次長來擔任召集人……"],["吳委員春城：現在是哪一位次長？"],["潘部長文忠：目前督導終身司的是林明裕政次，這個制度是正式簽辦出來的，儘管未來我們可能都會離開這個工作崗位，但是我們把這個制度建立起來了，它應該會往前走，委員應該也會持續提供指教。"],["吳委員春城：今天的主題在談偏鄉教育，我們想一想在偏鄉裡面就兩種人，一種是小孩，另外一種就是壯世代；如果我們只重視小孩的教育，對這些壯世代不聞不問的話，會產生什麼樣的狀況？就是世代的距離越來越遠！小孩子關心的、有興趣理解的，家裡的長輩都不瞭解，就會造成代溝──不溝通了，然後孩子的教育就變成完全是學校的、政府的責任，家庭責任就沒辦法跟上，這就是我們現在很多問題產生的原因，所以這件事情應該兩部分進行。也就是說，第三人生大學一個很重要的意義，就是這些人退休之後，不是進養老院，應該是進大學，我非常希望部長能夠做這樣的一個宣告，這個代表教育部的信念、教育部的決心，我們要往這個目標、方向前進，大家才會振奮起來，部長，可以嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，一路走來，雖然只有幾個月的時間，為什麼要成立專責小組？我覺得不只是終身司，未來高教跟技職也一定要參與進來。雖然現在程度不一，但全國確實也有八十幾所大學參與我們的樂齡大學，在這當中，我也請終身司去評估，它不是退場學校，而是它本身就有這樣的一個基礎下，原來只是樂齡大學比較休閒型的這種課程設計，進入到委員所說的壯世代，也許更符合他們未來可以在做第三人生的階段的課程，我想這個方向應該持續。"],["吳委員春城：好，這個方向是對的，現在我知道部長有這個理念，而我們前面一直在談的是大學的供應端，要把它準備起來，但同時也需要有需求端，現在大部分的壯世代都還沒有覺醒，很多人在他退休後不知道要幹嘛，所以這個部分還是需要給他鼓勵跟刺激，就是刺激需求。"],["潘部長文忠：委員談到的這個部分，其實在我們內部已經交換過幾次意見。現在大學的開課模式，委員應該知道嘛，教授通常都會以他的專長去開這樣一門課，有學生去做需求的學習。現在我們在想這個需求端，未來要怎麼去對應到大學的這一種模式，這個跟中小學不一樣，中小學是固定學區，孩子就一定會來；像這種需求端，可能要去考慮到它會擴大到什麼程度，每個需求又不太一樣，要怎麼樣進到大學的課程，可能還需要有一個比較精緻的規劃。"],["吳委員春城：所以，我們要加快速度，也請教育部對這個部分的供需多加研議。","今天主要討論的是，如何運用這些政策來鼓勵壯世代積極參與，其實有一些方法，第一個，現在已經可以做了，就是發放終身學習券來提高意願，像臺北市已經有發放樂齡進修券，國際各國當中也都有在做這一部分的加強，但要達成我們的政策目標，一定要有特定的指引。因為發言時間快到了，我把這個部分講完。其實現在政府有很多這種相關的券，教育部可以再增加相關的預算，特別是終身教育司的預算實在太低了，如果所有的事情要歸給他們，我相信他們也搞不出什麼名堂來，是不是應該要擴大他們？"],["潘部長文忠：委員，我有一個想法，也跟司長他們在談，就是從樂齡大學到跨一所到兩所，真正比較進入我們所思考這一段，我覺得這一段如果以經費使用的可能性，反而應該去支持學校，因為一下子還不夠普遍，我們去發券，我們又還沒辦法那麼大的普遍供應，所以我反而認為，我們可以階段性的思考這個問題。委員了解我的意思吧？"],["吳委員春城：有幾種方法，我現在講的是對需求端的鼓勵─發放券，至於供給端的這些大學端，也要把它建置好，增加大家上課的意願。另外，所得稅法第十七條的扣除額，對終身學習的這一部分，像美國可以有20%的扣抵，韓國則特別的重視，他們對於成人的這種終身學習，可以無上限的扣除，請問教育部可以往這方面去做嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：如果涉及到稅則、稅法，可能比較沒有辦法單一由教育部來決定。"],["吳委員春城：這當然得按照財政紀律法，是財政部要做的事情，但是可以由主管機關的部會提出這個規劃……"],["潘部長文忠：而且可能需要跨部會……"],["吳委員春城：對，但是主動權要在教育部……"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，為什麼會馬上去成立專責小組，我是真的很認真思考這個問題，但是它的進程，包含剛才委員提到發放學習券，或是稅制的這個問題，我覺得前提還是要到達一個普遍性，我知道委員對這個部分一直都有一貫的想法。"],["吳委員春城：對，要加快腳步。"],["潘部長文忠：但是它的階段我認為是少不了，像現在說只有一、兩所，我們馬上去動到旁邊的這個，我是認為還不到時機，但是對這一、兩所，我希望把它做好。"],["吳委員春城：大概什麼時候會有一、兩所？"],["潘部長文忠：520之後，我會離開，你不會離開，請你再繼續協助這個專責小組，提供一些建議。"],["吳委員春城：但是不能歸零，再從頭來啊！我們努力了這麼多，你已經有觀念，而且有意願。"],["潘部長文忠：不會啦！終身司李司長很積極，所以委員上次提醒，他回去之後很快的就簽辦由一位跨司署的次長來主持專責小組……"],["吳委員春城：所以，我今天提的主要是終身學習券發放的規劃，還有所得稅法對終身學習特別扣除的規劃，我今天就不特別要求你，因為你看起來你是想要併在一個整體的大計畫裡面……"],["潘部長文忠：它應該是一個階段，一個階段。"],["吳委員春城：部長，這個是你對壯世代的一個答禮，能夠交代下去……"],["潘部長文忠：以後我們也會適用。"],["吳委員春城：謝謝。"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝兩位。接下來我們請林倩綺委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","盧縣一","萬美玲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","葉元之","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","吳春城","林倩綺","徐富癸","何欣純","黃仁","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","范雲","邱志偉","黃珊珊","劉建國"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修\n正草案」案、(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」\n案、( 三) 委員馬文君等17 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會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":497.529,"end":513.379,"text":"教育部列席及文化委員會第11屆第12期教育部列席及文化委員會第12期教育部列席及文化委員會第12期教育部列席及文化委員會第12期教育部列席及文化委員會第12期教育部列席及文化委員會第12期教育部列席及文化委員會第12期教育部列席及文化委員會第12期教育部列席及文化委員會第12期教育部列席及文化委員會第12期教育部列席及文化委員會第12期教育部列席及文化委員會第12期教育部列席及文化委員會第12期教育部列席及文化委員"},{"start":513.979,"end":528.117,"text":"所以委員為什麼說上次你在提醒的時候他回去很快的就希望牽絆一位跨師署的召集的次長所以我今天提的主要就是這種中間學習卷的發放的規劃"},{"start":529.798,"end":551.729,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第11屆第2會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員會第1會期教育及文化委員"}]}},{"id":"152089","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152089","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1f97e5f88604cd999d575e50b9cd8685a55be169921a0a71783d3e8d5e50657605ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"11:38:14 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lips，我從你的話裡面聽出來是，你是說你沒有時間處理，不是你不能處理，這個話對吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該不是這樣說，應該是說，成事不必在我，後面的人有他處理的方式。"],["賴委員士葆：但是點值1塊錢是可以做到的，給你時間你可以處理。"],["薛部長瑞元：depends。"],["賴委員士葆：depends，因為沒有在位置上？"],["薛部長瑞元：對，必須要很多的配套才可能做得到。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你如果繼續在這個位置上可以處理，是這個意思？"],["薛部長瑞元：我不敢這樣講。"],["賴委員士葆：但是有機會？"],["薛部長瑞元：這些都是假設性的問題，我就沒有辦法回答。"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你講，這個是賴清德的政見耶！"],["薛部長瑞元：是啊！"],["賴委員士葆：是啊！當然可以，你現在講差七百多億，如果0.95的話是差七百多億是不是？"],["薛部長瑞元：七百億左右。"],["賴委員士葆：我們去年稅收增加多少你知道嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：我知道。"],["賴委員士葆：增加3,680億。"],["薛部長瑞元：但是每年都在過年有可能嗎？"],["賴委員士葆：3,680億你爭取一下，這三年每年都增加三、四千億，這幾年每年都增加，所以錢不是問題，中華民國稅收這麼有錢！"],["薛部長瑞元：也許未來的內閣……"],["賴委員士葆：不是，你就要去爭取啊！是不是？爭取就有了，大聲一點，先喊就有。你看經濟部先喊出來，就給他1,100億，對不對？請問你，再一個關鍵的題目，如果改成1塊錢或者0.95，年底我們的健保會倒嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：今年年底當然不會。"],["賴委員士葆：不會啊！明年會倒嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：明年應該是變成要……"],["賴委員士葆：也不會倒？"],["薛部長瑞元：有可能會調整保費，除非公務預算真的是整個都進來。"],["賴委員士葆：你就讓經濟部喊走1,000億……"],["薛部長瑞元：那不是我的事情。"],["賴委員士葆：現在就可以做啊！你今天在備詢……"],["薛部長瑞元：現在若要編概算是明年的……"],["賴委員士葆：經濟部不是編概算……"],["薛部長瑞元：他們是追加。"],["賴委員士葆：他們追加，你也一樣追加啊！"],["薛部長瑞元：我沒有接到這個安排。"],["賴委員士葆：奇怪！我覺得一般來講，快要離職的人就可以拳打腳踢，這個東西為了公理正義，你是醫生出身的，請問你，點值1塊錢有沒有道理？你告訴我。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員，之前你……"],["賴委員士葆：有沒有道理？"],["薛部長瑞元：之前委員指導我要面目和善……"],["賴委員士葆：對，面目和善。"],["薛部長瑞元：之後我就不會拳打腳踢了。"],["賴委員士葆：所以從來不面目……"],["薛部長瑞元：我現在臉色都很好。"],["賴委員士葆：現在臉色確實有比較好，以前臉黑黑，現在臉亮亮的，不太一樣。所以這個很清楚看得到，是不為也，不是不能為，因為只要政府撥給你就有了。撥給你就有，你差七百多億算什麼？對我們來講，每年多三、四千億，去年多四、五千億。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員看的錢都比較大，我們看的錢比較少。"],["賴委員士葆：這個你要爭取啊！王美花因為他老公是顧立雄，她伸手就有。你看，1,000億給她，對不對？1,000億就有了，怎麼會沒有？這不是問題啊！我們主席英明，排這個題目太好了，真的，大家都鼓掌拍手，1點1塊錢，而且還比賴清德講的少欸！賴清德怎麼兌現？所以我最後一句話請問你，人家說臺灣有多讚多讚，是民主之光，健保是不是臺灣之光？"],["薛部長瑞元：當然是。"],["賴委員士葆：絕對是，而且是No.1對不對？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["賴委員士葆：既然這麼讚，就1點1塊錢而已，那個「點」大家看不懂你知道嗎？Point，什麼Point我也不知道，英文怎麼翻我也不知道。但Dollar，NT Dollar就很清楚，1點1塊錢，你看主席都同意了，可以吧？"],["薛部長瑞元：可以什麼？"],["賴委員士葆：可以做得到啊！給你時間做得到嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有、沒有，這已經不在我的職權範圍之內。"],["賴委員士葆：所以你是無奈的離開嘛！"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有啦！也沒有無奈，很開心的展望未來。"],["賴委員士葆：其實我知道啦！你很想繼續做，我們也希望給你繼續做。"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有沒有，千萬不要這樣說，我現在越來越輕鬆了。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！主席站起來，我就不講了。"],["主席：好，謝謝賴士葆委員，接下來我們請李彥秀委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-14","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","黃秀芳","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","劉建國","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","賴士葆","李彥秀","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","賴惠員","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；二、委員蘇清\n泉等27人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康\n保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.37596875,"end":7.25346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":7.523468750000001,"end":8.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.89034375,"end":9.869093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.40909375,"end":11.269718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.859718750000003,"end":15.977843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.977843750000002,"end":16.34909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.00721875,"end":18.01971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.660968750000002,"end":20.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.15846875,"end":28.21221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":28.60034375,"end":29.579093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.87034375,"end":29.66346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.372218750000002,"end":33.25784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.25784375,"end":35.41784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":36.666593750000004,"end":37.32471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.10096875,"end":40.15971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.93596875,"end":42.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.36596875,"end":44.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.867843750000006,"end":45.424718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.18409375,"end":47.196593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":48.32721875,"end":49.96409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.23409375,"end":53.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":53.946593750000005,"end":55.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.38096875,"end":57.28784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.03034375,"end":59.414093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.70096875,"end":62.24909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":63.210968750000006,"end":63.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.47659375,"end":65.59034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.18096875,"end":67.31159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":68.08784375,"end":68.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.16784375,"end":72.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.74534375,"end":74.48346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.77034375000001,"end":79.88346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.58846875,"end":79.25909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.50784375,"end":81.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.94659375,"end":82.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.80721875,"end":84.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":83.25846875,"end":85.38471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.99221875,"end":90.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.34659375000001,"end":87.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.01721875000001,"end":88.33784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":90.02534375,"end":93.28221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.61159375000001,"end":95.15534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.96971875000001,"end":95.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.15534375,"end":95.81346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.81346875000001,"end":99.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":99.81284375000001,"end":100.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.55096875000001,"end":102.36096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":103.40721875000001,"end":104.18346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.67284375000001,"end":106.83284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.54159375,"end":107.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":108.26721875000001,"end":108.89159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.17846875000001,"end":109.56659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":109.56659375000001,"end":110.84909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.40596875000001,"end":115.89471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.57846875000001,"end":117.66659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.89034375000001,"end":117.80159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":118.32471875,"end":128.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.58159375000001,"end":121.91909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.41596875000002,"end":130.87971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.50409375,"end":132.33096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.61784375000002,"end":137.37659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":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entreprene�議員"},{"start":46.453,"end":51.154,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。"},{"start":69.796,"end":85.394,"text":"應該不是說這樣子啦,應該是說齁,城市不必在握,後面的人有他處理的方式。但是點子一塊錢是可以做到的嗎?你給你時間你可以處理。Depends啦。Depends,因為你沒有在位子上嘛。"},{"start":86.682,"end":101.858,"text":"對,因為不需要很多的配套才可能做得到。所以,你如果繼續在位置上可以處理,是這個意思?我不敢這樣講。但是有機會?這個都角色性的問題,我就沒有辦法回答。我跟你講喔,這個東西,這個賴清德的政見,"},{"start":107.611,"end":124.838,"text":"是啊是啊當然可以可以你現在來講差700多億如果0.95的700億是不是700億左右我們去年稅收增加多少你知道嗎我知道增加3680億3680億你爭取一下這三年每年都給三千億"},{"start":131.58,"end":132.801,"text":"ympt."},{"start":132.801,"end":134.982,"text":"請問你喔請問你喔請問在一個關鍵的題目如果改成一塊錢"},{"start":159.77,"end":160.873,"text":"三、國民黨黨團擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。厲"},{"start":168.2,"end":193.319,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":194.326,"end":200.579,"text":"議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。議員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案。案。"},{"start":204.718,"end":228.097,"text":"​​​​​​​​​​​​"},{"start":229.196,"end":235.34,"text":"所以這個很清楚看得到是不回也不是不能贏因為只要政府不給你就有了啊不給你就有了你差700多億算什麼對我們來講當年給三、四千億去年給四、五千億"},{"start":256.67,"end":273.904,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案案。」案。閱讀員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案。案。閱讀員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案。案。閱讀員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案。案。閱讀員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保險法第六十二條條條文修正草案。案。閱讀員王育敏等19人擬具:「全民健康保"},{"start":285.888,"end":310.345,"text":"所以今天來講我最後一句話啦齁最後一句欸請問你喔最後你講台灣那邊華贊族華贊民族之光阿諾度之光健保是不是台灣之光當然是絕對是而且是number one對對不對對這麼讚勒一定一塊錢就是這樣這樣這樣大家看不出來你知道point你在說point我不知道現金不知道要怎麼換我不知道是不是到了"},{"start":312.307,"end":317.615,"text":"ignty大陸一點一塊錢,你看主席都同意啊,笑到今天主席這樣"},{"start":321.482,"end":323.223,"text":"kiye賴世保委員"}]}},{"id":"152088","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152088","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db10f08364b581ed6c1e12ebde737ab3c1955be169921a0a7173f69a6de72969f305ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱志偉","委員發言時間":"11:33:25 - 11:42:53","影片長度":"00:09:28","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：審查：\n一、行政院函請審議「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n二、本院委員柯志恩等17人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n三、本院委員賴士葆等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n四、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n五、本院委員楊瓊瓔等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例增訂第三十六條之四條文草案」案。\n六、本院台灣民眾黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n七、本院國民黨黨團擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n八、本院委員張智倫等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n九、本院委員王世堅等16人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十五條、第三十六條之二及第四十條條文修正草案」案。\n十、本院委員郭國文等19人擬具「中小企業發展條例第三十六條之二條文修正草案」案。\n十一、本院委員邱議瑩等29人擬具「中小企業發展條例部分條文修正草案」案。\n（詢答及處理，委員郭國文等人提案如未接獲議事處來函則不予審查）【4月29日、5月1日及2日三天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期經濟委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[19],"id":"委員會-11-1-19-10"},"duration":568,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:42:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:33:25+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":642,"blocks":[["邱委員志偉：（11時33分）謝謝主席，有請經濟部王部長。"],["主席：我們請部長。"],["王部長美花：委員好。"],["邱委員志偉：部長你好，部長辛苦了！有關於電業法第四十九條，這個電價計費公式跟電價費率審議委員會是什麼時候決定要成立的？"],["王部長美花：電價審議委員會事實上是之前立法院有要求要成立這樣的審議委員會。"],["邱委員志偉：我告訴你啦！2015年在第8屆的時候，第8屆是誰執政？第8屆是2015年，是誰執政？"],["王部長美花：馬總統的時候。"],["邱委員志偉：馬總統執政，那國會誰是多數黨？當然是國民黨，對不對？"],["王部長美花：國民黨，是。"],["邱委員志偉：那時候是本席第1屆的時候，民進黨大概只有40席，所以絕大多數是國民黨。2015年1月20日，在第8屆第6會期決議要通過電價計費公式，而且要成立電價費率審議會，這是國民黨時代決定要成立的，對不對？沒有錯嘛？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：然後第1場的電價費率審議委員會是什麼時候開的？我告訴你，我比較熟啦！2015年，也是在馬英九執政的時候，在3月20日開第1場的電價費率審議委員會，對不對？"],["王部長美花：是。"],["邱委員志偉：好，再把這個精神入法，在2017年的時候修電業法第四十九條，把所謂的電價費率審議委員會法制化，這個是按照2015年1月20日第8屆第6會期第18次會議的決議，才把電價費率審議委員會法制化。國民黨自己主張要把電價審議制度化，那當時為什麼不把它直接修到由國會同意就好？換了位置換了腦袋。做一個部長要「心頭抓乎定」，心居正啊！「心頭抓乎定」就邪魔不入，邪魔到處都是，為己、為個人利益、為政黨之私，罔顧國家的法治，罔顧之前所做的承諾，自己答應做的事情、自己所做過的事情可以全盤否定，這就是邪魔。作為行政部門的主管，你對你的政策跟法令要捍衛到底，不是不能修，但是當時是誰制定的？是馬英九時代，國民黨執政的時候，國會是在國民黨多數的時候所通過的決議，它現在反而說這個審議委員會的決議無效，必須要再修法，要逕付二讀，把它送來立法院經過國會同意，那政府由立法院來當就好啦！不需要行政部門啊！那油價調漲要不要送到立法院？他們有這麼多時間嗎？他們有那麼勤勞嗎？過去他們是懶惰得要死，他們有那麼勤勞嗎？水費是不是也要來立法院審議？莫名其妙！當一個國會議員，自己所做的什麼事情，這個政黨之前所做的什麼事情，完全是逢綠必反、逢中必軟，這種政黨真的讓人家很看不起。","今天要討論一下，我們的經濟成長贏韓國，但薪資成長卻輸給韓國，這是有原因的，我們也輸給通膨。央行有建議，應該比照日韓提升薪資的對策，我們看人家日韓怎麼提升，從補貼、從稅務去處理，稅務的話，要請財政部李次長。我們的服務業以中小型為主，薪酬制度當然不比南韓是以大企業為主完善，基本上，這是我們體質上的問題。基本工資的調漲幅度遠低於南韓，我們用南韓做比較，我們沒有辦法超越它，但是我們最起碼可以學習他們好的地方，所以央行的建議是說，你要提高基本工資，提高我國勞動的份額，這一點很重要，這是經濟部的工作，也是勞動部的工作，透過租稅優惠來鼓勵中小企業加薪，我問一下次長，你們現行有哪些租稅優惠可以明顯地提供很大的誘因，讓中小企業願意把員工加薪？"],["李次長慶華：目前就是我們今天討論的中小企業發展條例。"],["邱委員志偉：如果按照你們的版本或者委員的提案版本通過，我有看過版本大概都大同小異啦！這樣子中小企業就有強烈的誘因願意為員工加薪嗎？"],["李次長慶華：當然租稅優惠是其中一個誘因，但是中小企業要不要替員工加薪，其實還有企業本身的一些考慮，第一個就是企業本身有沒有賺錢，如果沒有賺錢，它當然不會加薪。第二個就是它繳的稅負到底高不高，如果它繳的稅很輕的話，因為要適用這樣的租稅優惠，它可能必須要準備相關的資料，或者是需要有申請的程序，它也許會考慮需不需要去提出這樣的申請。"],["邱委員志偉：所以現在是低薪的問題啦！低薪的問題衍生了很多後續性的問題，你就沒有辦法去買房，你就沒有辦法去結婚生子，因為經濟條件不夠嘛！所以變成少子化，少子化也是間接因為低薪所造成，所以韓國的經驗值得我們去學習，除了租稅優惠之外，你政策也可以去補貼，拿現金來補貼，用國家預算去補貼中小企業，王部長，你同意嗎？"],["王部長美花：我們比較多的是用相關的鼓勵，比如說升級轉型，讓企業的體質變好了以後……"],["邱委員志偉：那個太抽象，你就是專款專用，因為它會用很多的名目去規避責任，它享受到政府的補貼，但是它不會去負它該負的責任，它負的責任就是要為員工加薪嘛！那你給它補貼什麼升值、什麼研發，它不會想到加薪，它會說這個是用在研發、用在加值的部分，不會用在員工的薪水。"],["王部長美花：但是就像剛才次長講的，產業的體質好，有賺錢了以後，相對地長遠來講，它加薪的本錢才會存在。"],["邱委員志偉：低薪問題要當作國安問題來處理，因為提了很多解方，做了很多的事情，政策也不斷提出來，也花了很多預算，但是卻沒有辦法有效讓年輕人覺得他們的薪水是值得他們投入的，他現在的薪水跟我30年前初就業的時候其實差不多耶！再加上通膨的效果，特別是以中小企業為主，年輕人很艱苦，所以這要當作一個國安問題，你要窮盡政府所有的資源跟力量，對大企業補貼還不如拿來對中小企業補貼，幫它補貼直接用在對員工的加薪，這樣年輕人才有感。你看一個月只領到三萬五，如果是新鮮人的話，三萬五扣掉房租什麼的，加上通膨，恐怕他沒有能力去購屋，他沒有能力去結婚生子，比起韓國、日本，真的是差很多，所以我覺得應該用行政院的高度，要提出一個怎麼樣去解決青年低薪問題的對策委員會，從行政院的層級去解決問題，而不是跨部會各自提出政策跟主張，卻沒有去整合，這個效果是有限的。我時間到了，部長辛苦了，次長辛苦了。"],["王部長美花：是。"],["主席：好，謝謝。","接下來請張智倫委員做詢答。今天中午不休息，延長開會，我們也歡迎國發會副主委還有主秘在現場共同討論。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":510,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-19-10","speakers":["楊瓊瓔","謝衣鳯","賴士葆","邱議瑩","張智倫","郭國文","陳亭妃","林岱樺","鄭正鈐","鄭天財Sra 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對不對這個是按照2015年1月20號第18屆第6會期第18次會議的決議才把這個所謂電價費率審議委員會把它法制化嘛 對不對"},{"start":143.192,"end":170.539,"text":"國民黨自己主張要把這個店家審議把它制度化。那當時為什麼不直接把它修到說留國會同意就好?換了位置換了腦袋。做一個部長齁,先讓我念給你聽。心啊!矩陣啊!先念給你聽齁,這邪魔不入。邪魔到處都是。"},{"start":173.035,"end":197.601,"text":"為己﹑為個人利益﹑為政黨之私﹑挽顧國家的法治﹑挽顧之前所做的這些承諾﹑所做的之前﹑自己所答應做的事情﹑自己所做過的事情﹑可以全盤否定。這就是邪魔。作為行政部門的主管,你對你的這個政策跟法律你都捍衛到底。"},{"start":200.182,"end":227.927,"text":"不是不能修,但是當時是誰制定的?是馬英九時代國民黨執政的時候,國會是國民黨在多數時候所通過的決議。他現在把說這個審議委員會的決議無效,必須要再修法,要禁錮二讀,把他送來立法院經過國會的同意。那政府由立法院來當就好啦。"},{"start":229.923,"end":247.466,"text":""},{"start":250.236,"end":273.831,"text":"莫名其妙,這個大約國會議員自然是自己所做出的什麼事情,這個政黨之前所做的什麼事情,完全在他這個為了逢綠必反,逢中必暖。這種政黨啊,真的讓人家覺得很看不起。今天討論一下"},{"start":276.339,"end":293.092,"text":"我們的經濟成長是贏韓國,但薪資成長是輸給韓國。是有原因的,我們也輸給通膨。央行有建議,應該比照日韓提升薪資的對策,從補貼、從稅務去處理。稅務的話要請財政部,請次長。"},{"start":303.84,"end":331.54,"text":"我們的服務業以中小企業為主。薪酬制度當然不比南韓市以大企業為主完善,這基本上我們的這個體質上的問題。基本公司的調漲幅度遠低於南韓,我們用南韓做比較。我們沒有辦法超越他,我們就起碼可以把他們好的地方可以學習嘛。所以央行的建議說,你要提高基本公司,提高我國勞動的份額,這點很重要。"},{"start":332.694,"end":339.665,"text":"這是經濟部的工作,也是勞動部的工作。透過租稅約會來鼓勵中小企業加薪。"},{"start":342.745,"end":368.264,"text":"現在有哪些助稅優惠可以明顯的提供很大的誘因讓中小企業願意把員工加薪?目前就是我們今天討論的中小企業發展條例。這樣子如果按照今天你們的這個版本或者委員提案版本通過我看過版本大同小異的這樣子中小企業就有強烈的誘因可以願意為員工加薪嗎?"},{"start":369.465,"end":394.554,"text":"當然這個租稅優惠是其中一個誘因,但是因為中小企業要替員工加薪,其實還有一些他自己本身企業的考慮。因為第一個就是企業本身有沒有賺錢,他如果沒有賺錢他當然不會加薪。第二個就是說他繳的稅負到底高不高,如果他繳的稅很輕的話,那因為要適用這樣一個租稅優惠,他可能必須要準備相關的資料,或者是說需要有一個申請的程序,他也許會考慮說需不需要去提出這樣一個申請。"},{"start":396.109,"end":412.88,"text":"所以現在是低薪的問題,這低薪問題造成說衍生了很多後續性的問題,你就沒有辦法去買房,你就沒有辦法去結婚生子,因為經濟條件不夠,就變少子化,少子化也是間接因為低薪所造成的。"},{"start":415.015,"end":423.363,"text":"所以韓國的經驗值得我們去學習,除了租稅優惠之外,你政策也可以去補貼,可以現金來補貼,用國家物資去補貼就是中小企業。王部長,你有同意嗎?"},{"start":430.458,"end":455.446,"text":"我們比較多的是用這個相關的鼓勵他來這個比如說升級轉型提高他的這個讓企業的這個變好了以後你那個太抽象了你就是專款專用他會用很多的名目去規避他的責任但是他享受到政府的補貼但是他不會去負他該負的責任他負的責任就是要為員工加薪"},{"start":456.616,"end":459.137,"text":"但是你的,像剛才次長講,你的產業的體質好有賺錢了以後,相對的長遠來講,它的加薪的這樣的本錢才會存在。"},{"start":476.365,"end":501.77,"text":"低薪問題要當作國安問題來處理,因為提了很多解方,做了很多的這個事情,政策也不斷提出來,也花了很多預算,但是卻沒有辦法有效讓這個年輕人覺得他們薪水是值得他們投入的。因為現在薪水比我30年前出就業的時候是差不多的,你只要加上通膨的效果,"},{"start":503.735,"end":531.357,"text":"特別是以中小企業為主。所以這包括一個國安問題,你要窮盡政府的所有的資源跟力量,對大企業補貼,還不如拿對中小企業的補貼。幫他補貼直接用在對員工的加薪,這樣年輕人才有感。如果他一個月只領到三萬五,如果這個新鮮人的話,你扣掉房租什麼的,通膨。"},{"start":532.602,"end":561.731,"text":"恐怕他沒有能力去購屋,他沒有能力去結婚生子。要比韓國、比日本只要查經濟。所以我不是覺得應該用行政院的高度,要提出一個怎麼樣去解決青年低薪問題的一個對策委員會。從行政院的層級來去解決問題,而不是說跨部會各自提出政策跟主張,就沒有去整合。這個效果是有限的。"},{"start":562.807,"end":567.5,"text":"獎項"}]}},{"id":"152087","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152087","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db156ce5b2cb7d4a684455ccb8302deb5eb55be169921a0a717c18d727e6bf2bdff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"游顥","委員發言時間":"11:31:32 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11:39:24","影片長度":"00:07:52","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會、勞動部就「公共工程職業安全衛生改善暨降低職業災害辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預算凍結案計7案。）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-10"},"duration":472,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:39:24+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:31:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":501,"blocks":[["游委員顥：（11時31分）謝謝召委。有請吳主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員你好。"],["游委員顥：主委你好。在今天的質詢中，我還是要再次藉由這個機會肯定主委，要對吳澤成吳主委對於公共工程委員會以及臺灣重大工程推動的貢獻表達肯定。"],["吳主任委員澤成：謝謝。"],["游委員顥：針對今天的質詢過程，我也跟團隊與幕僚討論，而且準備了許多資料，也在這裡藉這個機會，今天也不特別為難，但我還是要勉勵跟期許工程會。","在過去的職災中，重大工程職災部分，去年平均1.21日就有一名勞工因為職災而死亡，大概10萬人中就有2.7人因為職災死亡，不如日本的1.5人、英國的0.8人，更遑論荷蘭的0.3人，所以我國的重大職災死亡率其實是荷蘭的9倍。職安署日期也公布2023年的統計人數，去年發生重大職災的有151人；再之前的話，營造業一直維持在150人到147人，蔡英文執政的2015年，營造業職災人數是147，所以這個數據是維持在一百多人的情況，而我們是荷蘭的9倍，也將近是日本的兩倍。所以我也希望，在就未來重大公共工程減少職災部分，要持續研究怎麼改良、改進，能夠讓在工地或建地從事營建的這些勞工朋友更為安全，這是第一件事情。","第二，印度勞工可能要開放來臺一事現在都還在研究，我上次跟主委探討過，探討過程中提到，現在其實有許多營建缺工問題，希望工程會跟勞動部能夠再做充分討論，當然不能夠影響到本勞的就業權利，包括相關勞動條件。因應缺工問題是不是適合讓他們進來，以及就算進來了，能不能夠補充我國的營建勞工缺工問題，我仍希望工程會未來加強跟勞動部探討。","我想再謝謝吳澤成主委對於工程界的貢獻，在這裡也肯定工程會。"],["吳主任委員澤成：謝謝。"],["游委員顥：謝謝。","接下來我直接問職安署署長。"],["鄒署長子廉：委員好。"],["游委員顥：署長好。以前我們或多或少有互動啦！因為我本身也是勞工背景出身的，吳育仁立委是我以前的老闆，也是我的老師。","等一下王鴻薇立委也會提到，在我們今天的記者會提到一件重大職業安全事件，有高鐵內部人員檢舉，王鴻薇立委辦公室跟我們這邊都接到，就是高鐵工安事件駭人的真相。在4月9號當天，高鐵0621車次南下列車進入彰化路段時全黑，因為電力異常，但是當時高鐵路段裡面正有6個工班在進行維護作業，一般來講，工班的維護其實都是在晚間、夜間，他們卻在白天進行維護作業，那個時間也是不可能斷電的，所以導致該工班有3次可能出事，幸好因為有接地防護棒，不然的話，幾乎就會造成至少3次以上2萬5,000伏特的電擊。等一下王鴻薇委員也會接著再問你。","而我要接著再問另外一件事，就是一名高鐵列車長不僅喝酒的事，4月27號，該名高鐵列車長喝酒之後酒測，但幫他酒測的調派員直接幫他代為酒測，也就是調派員自己吹酒測，導致該高鐵列車長有酒駕的情況。這些都會非常嚴重地影響職業安全，我想就教署長，像這兩個事件，您怎麼來看？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員提醒，可能是內部同仁為了安全勇於舉發，我覺得是正面的。看來這家公司的安全管理系統出了狀況，對於內部的所有程序跟標準沒有遵守，所以這部分應該要從內部來做稽核。針對這個案子，我會請中區職安中心會同臺中市勞檢處對彰化基地先做進一步了解，調查有沒有按照標準作業程序施作。另外，現場立即斷電才作業是我們的天條，工作者要是在高壓電環境裡不斷電作業，除非防護得非常、非常得體，要不然就應該是斷電作業之後才可以做後續工作，針對細節部分，我們要就現場做了解，並要求公司作做一步改善。"],["游委員顥：這一題我沒有問得很細，因為王鴻薇委員等一下會接著針對這個問題跟你討教。我是要直接向你問一下，在職安署的部分對於這兩件事情，尤其是後者代為酒測，因為酒測也是零容忍。這兩起事件呈現的是國人的交通安全問題，呈現的是勞工朋友在實施工程、維護時的安全狀況，這部分有可能造成死亡，甚至造成許多列車上的乘客死亡，所以請職安署署長對於這件事情一定要慎重處理。"],["鄒署長子廉：報告委員，這部分應該跟鐵道局有關，因為涉及監管鐵路運輸安全的責任，所以我們會再跟鐵道局作進一步的橫向聯繫，看看怎麼讓高鐵公司針對工作者，甚至列車長的防護與酒測更為落實。謝謝委員。"],["游委員顥：這起事件非常謝謝王鴻薇委員一直以來都在追蹤，並且將這件事加以呈現。我剛才沒有問主委這個部分，而是直接問職安署，是因為像這樣的事件不僅表示高鐵的螺絲鬆動了，也是工安危機，尤其是在職安署知道之後，更是責無旁貸，所以我希望對於這件事情能夠有一個報告；同時，也因為高鐵公司是交通部所管的，希望讓交通委員會也能知道報告的結果。"],["鄒署長子廉：好。"],["游委員顥：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，游顥委員發言完畢。","現在請羅智強委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-10","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","黃健豪","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","徐富癸","林沛祥","蔡其昌","許智傑","張智倫","黃國昌","林俊憲","游顥","羅智強","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","邱若華","廖先翔"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會、勞動部就「公共工程職業安全衛生改善暨降低職業災害辦理情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預\n算凍結案計7案","agenda_id":"1133901_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.01034375,"end":24.668468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.79471875,"end":30.23721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.47659375,"end":37.52721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.52721875,"end":38.20221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.20221875,"end":38.235968750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.438468750000006,"end":39.34971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.80534375,"end":55.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.891593750000006,"end":55.313468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.58346875,"end":71.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":71.09159375,"end":71.44596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.95221875,"end":74.06159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.97284375000001,"end":76.28909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.67721875000001,"end":111.94596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.24971875000001,"end":149.76284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.94846875000002,"end":152.83409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.95221875000001,"end":205.09596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":205.45034375,"end":205.92284375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":205.92284375000003,"end":208.43721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.62659375,"end":212.14971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.52096875,"end":213.88784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":214.24221875,"end":289.28534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":289.50471875,"end":292.89659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.40284375000005,"end":321.31409375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":321.61784375,"end":364.71659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":365.13846875,"end":384.76409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":385.15221875000003,"end":389.13471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.48909375000005,"end":410.90346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":411.17346875000004,"end":417.90659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_0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主委"},{"start":167.059,"end":186.59,"text":"可不可以去了解當然我們可以了解可以嘛拜託公共工程委員會去了解第二件事情跟國防部也有關係的是我當初接到崔少仁的檢舉我也檢舉了說有不肖的廠商把國防部當成提款機什麼樣交成提款機兩頁的法律意見收費21萬"},{"start":188.567,"end":206.472,"text":"然後呢合報的工時100多個小時收快50萬實際的工時只有38個小時下面也是一模一樣我當初檢舉的內容最後進行調查全部都是真的即使在調查的過程當中"},{"start":208.257,"end":219.55,"text":"那個不肖的廠商很囂張啊跑去原單位找人關說找人施壓連我也認識很多大哥我實在不想找他們我也查過你的底了連這種話都說得出來"},{"start":221.923,"end":246.866,"text":"但崔少仁沒有在懼怕這種惡勢力我們也絕對不可能像這種惡勢力低頭整個案子查出來了當初的確是有福報國防部說要移送憲兵隊偵辦辦到哪裡去案子是不是被吃掉這個我會去追但跟公共工程委員會有關係的是什麼跟公共工程委員會有關係的是結果"},{"start":248.274,"end":274.212,"text":"把國防部當提款機的不肖廠商現在是你們採購申訴審議委員會的委員主委你會不會覺得這個太扯自己過去就是不肖廠商福報款項都抓包了抓包了以後那些不法所得都要吐出來結果你們工程會竟然把他聘為申訴審議委員會的委員主委可以接受嗎"},{"start":276.299,"end":295.356,"text":"無法接受這是我第二個前舉的事情請主委回去處理主委我相信你的正直我也相信你的連結因為我從上一次還在國會的時候其實就認識你了希望你依法秉公辦理我絕對相信你是被蒙蔽的最後一個事情"},{"start":297.469,"end":315.078,"text":"我最近在追查特定的媒體人從我們政府取得大量的標案這個標案到底是怎麼拿到的我盤整了以後綠色的媒體人周玉蔻從我們各個政府機關國營事業最近5年取得政府標案1300萬1300萬就台電的部分"},{"start":320.521,"end":347.202,"text":"我開始追臺電的內容臺電你標案到底怎麼給的我在經濟委員會裡面有質詢我當初透過公共工程委員會希望把這一千三百萬的標案到底是怎麼給的在做什麼事情請他們標案的機關把相關的評審驗收報告全部都交來但問題來了大家都交只有高雄市政府不交"},{"start":348.956,"end":364.104,"text":"我從發文所知道現在通過公共工程委員會3個月了都還是不交是不是可以請主委出面一下跟高雄市政府講公共工程委員會跟他調取的資料該給的還是要給不要遮掩我們再來溝通"},{"start":365.216,"end":381.985,"text":"可以嗎?三個月囉!今天我如果上個禮拜發文今天拿不到我今天就要是我不對我已經等了三個月了麻煩主委出面跟高雄市政府好好討論一下這是有什麼見不得人的事情這是有什麼好遮掩的"},{"start":383.004,"end":402.76,"text":"但我在過濾這些標案的過程當中真是讓我瞠目結舌我們的地方政府是怎麼樣在濫用這些媒體採購的標案在做個人的政治宣傳我舉一個具體的例子2018年放眼得標屏東縣政府網路行銷合作案"},{"start":404.758,"end":425.011,"text":"限制性招標他的名目是什麼?屏東縣政府網路行銷合作案那要行銷什麼?要行銷屏東縣政府嘛結果他行銷的不是屏東縣政府欸他行銷的是什麼?他行銷的是在選舉的時候用民調的政治攻防欸來我給主委看"},{"start":426.482,"end":447.936,"text":"放言那個時候拿這個標案出什麼新聞啊?屏東縣選情民調現任縣長潘孟安以41.6的支持度大幅領先對手。欸主委請教一下這是哪門子屏東縣政府的行銷啊?請問這到底在行銷什麼啊?可以這樣幹嗎?主委"},{"start":453.536,"end":469.412,"text":"請表示意見該處理要處理該送檢察院送檢察院我希望公共工程委員會主委維持您一貫"},{"start":471.076,"end":485.991,"text":"給台灣社會、給我心中廉政的形象我知道很遺憾520以後你要離開這個位置但是我希望我們在這個位置上一天就要把事情做好這種腐敗的事情"},{"start":486.992,"end":487.513,"text":"我們來瞭解好 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11:13:17","影片長度":"00:06:18","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會、勞動部就「公共工程職業安全衛生改善暨降低職業災害辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預算凍結案計7案。）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-10"},"duration":378,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:13:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:06:59+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":423,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（11時7分）主席好，各位官員、各位委員，大家早安。有請工程會主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員你好。"],["張委員智倫：主委好。今天本席非常榮幸有機會站在這邊請教主委一些問題。首先要給主委非常大的肯定，因為主委過去在新北市，尤其在臺北縣的時期擔任工務局局長以及臺北縣副縣長，對於中和過去的水患問題幫忙很大，做了南山子分洪跟瓦磘溝分洪，讓中和比較不會淹水，以及推動最重要的雙和醫院建立，讓中和有一個很重要的醫院，現在也升格為醫學中心，這是非常感謝主委的部分。","今天本席到這邊來是特別要跟主委求援，因為在0403大地震之後，新北非常重要的環狀線中和段的中和到板橋這個區域現在是停駛的。根據捷運局表示，要將近一年的時間才能重新通車，造成很多鄉親不能接受，尤其它是新蓋好的捷運。所以我想先請教主委，針對環狀線中和段要維修將近一年的時間，工程會有沒有掌握一些現在的情形跟進度？"],["吳主任委員澤成：首先要謝謝張委員的支持、指教跟肯定，非常感謝，對於我過去長期在臺北縣服務，受到地方的支持也一併感謝。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：有那樣的成果當然都是中央、地方以及縣政府大家一起，也包括議員，如當時的陳議員等人一起努力的結果。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：那麼對於這次捷運工程的狀況，我們準備在7號由我們副主委邀請專家學者到現場，如果委員有空，也歡迎一起來了解，我們想去了解一下到底為什麼會發生這種狀況。這裡面有兩個可能因素，其一，雖然都是地震造成，但是否因為已經達到設計規模以上而損壞？還是說在它的設計、施工中有沒有哪個地方沒有注意到？依照這兩種狀況，未來的修復會有不同的做法；如果是還沒有達到而發生，應該檢討怎麼樣透過導正也好、補強也好，不要讓它再發生。"],["張委員智倫：真的非常感謝主委的分享。我簡單跟主委報告一下，主要就是分成兩個比較重要的問題，當然我是從新聞上得知，第一個就是屬於鋼梁錯位的部分，第二就是因為鋼梁錯位導致鐵軌有斷裂的情況。現在很多人提出意見，不管是專家學者或是……我先把圖片給主委看一下，舉兩個最近新聞上有報導的，台北市土木技師公會莊理事長以及新北市捷運局李局長都有提到用千斤頂的方式把這個部分復位。可不可以請主委稍微跟我們分享一下，就捷運施工或後續復原方式而言，千斤頂扮演什麼樣的角色？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我覺得要怎麼樣復原回來，必須看造成的原因是怎麼樣，而不只是擺正了就好，如果是原來的設計或施工有需要導正的部分，那個部分就必須先解決，因為那個地方是位處滿高的狀況，必須非常注意安全的問題，趁著這樣的狀況發生應一併檢討一下，從根本的設計就要檢討，施工要檢討，以及地震的發生怎麼會造成這樣的狀況。"],["張委員智倫：謝謝主委的分享，也感謝主委剛剛提出工程會也會到現場協助捷運局處理。","最後，因為時間關係，我要請主委協助，我也有跟捷運局聯繫，他們說這次造成損害導致的損失經費滿大的，將近有12億的經費，地方這邊希望我協助的是，可不可以請工程會協助補貼一些經費，好讓這個部分的修復可以快速一點，因為地方經費可能不足，主委有沒有辦法稍微協助一下經費補貼的部分？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我特別跟委員說明一下，當然我們對於天然災害有一些天然災害的救助做法，包含地方災害準備金若不夠，中央要怎麼協助，都有其機制在。但如同我剛剛講到的，如果檢討結果顯示原設計與施工有需要檢討的地方，可能會有合約責任的問題，這部分就依照合約規定處理；如果不是，而是天然災害造成，當然就由災害準備金的處理機制協助。"],["張委員智倫：好，謝謝主委。","再次感謝您，我認為中央與地方要一起協力、努力啦！把這些事情處理好，讓中和或板橋有需要用到環狀捷運線中和段的鄉親可以儘早回歸正常的生活。今天再次感謝主委，很榮幸在這邊跟你請益。謝謝。"],["吳主任委員澤成：好，謝謝，我們會來了解、協助。謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝，張智倫委員發言完畢。","請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-10","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","黃健豪","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","徐富癸","林沛祥","蔡其昌","許智傑","張智倫","黃國昌","林俊憲","游顥","羅智強","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","邱若華","廖先翔"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會、勞動部就「公共工程職業安全衛生改善暨降低職業災害辦理情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預\n算凍結案計7案","agenda_id":"1133901_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":2.5115937500000003,"end":9.24471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.859718750000003,"end":16.551593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.73721875,"end":49.525343750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.59284375,"end":54.992843750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.110968750000005,"end":98.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.00284375000001,"end":108.38534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.72284375000001,"end":116.90721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":117.32909375000001,"end":117.93659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.12221875,"end":121.36221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.56471875000001,"end":125.46284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.80034375000001,"end":126.42471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.82971875000001,"end":130.60971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":129.59721875,"end":129.81659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":130.71096875,"end":131.92596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":132.39846875,"end":132.76971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.60096875000002,"end":136.49909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.02221875,"end":139.63784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.17784375000002,"end":141.39284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.86534375000002,"end":146.82659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":147.06284375,"end":147.92346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.46346875,"end":150.03284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.37034375000002,"end":152.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":152.69909375,"end":155.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":155.63534375,"end":156.68159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.86721875,"end":158.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":158.35221875000002,"end":177.30284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.35971875,"end":164.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.75846875000002,"end":181.03221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":181.35284375,"end":183.17534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":183.73221875000002,"end":185.74034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":186.07784375,"end":189.73971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":189.84096875,"end":190.43159375000002},{"speak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11:06:48","影片長度":"00:10:44","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會、勞動部就「公共工程職業安全衛生改善暨降低職業災害辦理情形」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預算凍結案計7案。）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-10"},"duration":644,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:06:48+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T10:56:04+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":381,"blocks":[["蔡委員其昌：（10時56分）謝謝主席，請吳主委。"],["主席：請吳主委。"],["吳主任委員澤成：委員你好。"],["蔡委員其昌：主委早。首先謝謝主委這些年來對國家的貢獻，在這裡先跟你說一聲謝謝。接下來，主委，畢竟你還在位子上，所以本席該建議、該講的話，還是必須要善盡立法委員的職責。長期以來，本席過去擔任副院長期間，很多的議題大概都在副院長辦公室進行一些協調或協商，本席過去比較少有機會可以在這裡，所以上次就教主委其實就是針對循環經濟的問題，公共工程委員會在相關工程的廢棄物等等、包括刨除物應該有永續的概念，在循環經濟的架構底下進行處理。","剛剛我做了一個臨時提案，這個臨時提案的主軸都是一樣，都是針對永續。我看了一下相關的數字，公共工程委員會政府採購的綠色採購金額部分只有126億，我剛剛也請助理去瞭解一下。主委，這126億主要的綠色採購在公共工程委員會項下主要都做哪些採購？"],["吳主任委員澤成：就這個部分，我們鼓勵各機關必須要考慮包括各方面的設計、建材、工法、整體的規劃，應該從源頭去考量清楚。"],["蔡委員其昌：我的意思是，我們統計出來是126億，這126億的金額實在是很低，是不是有一些項目有做綠色採購的鼓勵，但是沒有放進去？我是問你這個問題。"],["吳主任委員澤成：這個有可能，所以我們必須來檢視。"],["蔡委員其昌：幕僚有提供主委答案嗎？因為早上助理告訴我，好像只有碳粉夾，是不是，主委？"],["吳主任委員澤成：這是一些使用物品……"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["吳主任委員澤成：我個人的看法是，更重要的是在工程，即我剛剛講的規劃設計，必須考量使用的材料……"],["蔡委員其昌：主委，我們一項一項來，沒有關係，我等一下會再請教綠建築的部分。綠色採購金額只有126億，對本席來講，政府的力道很低。所以我問了一下這126億買了什麼？大部分都集中在碳粉夾或一些商品，看起來占政府採購的金額並不大。我為什麼提這個臨時提案？公共工程委員會跟環境部對於政府所有部門在這方面的管理不能僅止於紙張、碳粉夾，而是應該對所有政府部門在綠色採購上做整體性的數字統計。如果沒有數字，我們就無法管理，就無法訂定目標，所以本席做這個臨時提案，而交通委員會朝野立委都同意了。意思就是說接下來工程會跟環境部應該統計政府到底做了多少綠色採購，包括今年做了多少，以及明年成長1%、成長2%等等，相關綠色採購也應該逐年成長，然後去檢視遇到的障礙是什麼。若沒有這些數據的統計跟管理，沒有辦法訂定政策跟目標嘛！主委，這樣你懂我的意思嗎？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我同意。"],["蔡委員其昌：所以本席要求要訂這個，看起來工程會也沒有意見嘛！只是說加了環境部。這是本席覺得第一個應該做的，是在綠色採購上面。","第二個，主委剛剛也提到，包括建築、建材等等。當然現在公有建築的綠建築標章是內政部在發，可是內政部在發的是發給建築，也就是審核該建築物有沒有符合綠色建築，若有，就給予綠色建築標章，但這是由業者決定要做這件事，然後透過內政部檢查給予合格標章。那公共工程委員會要不要鼓勵？或者有沒有想出什麼樣的政策目標，能讓綠建築申請的人變多？主委，你有沒有什麼想法可以增加綠建築申請數？針對綠建築，你看內政部的資料，108年191件，到了112年也不過218件。蔡總統宣布2050年要達到淨零碳排的時間是在110年，但你看，111年、112年其實都比110年的件數來得少。所以本席的意思是公共工程委員會應該訂定目標嘛！對於綠色採購、綠色建築都應該有明確的方向跟目標。主委，你的看法呢？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我從兩方面跟委員報告，從各機關的採購來看，也許會走向剛剛講的紙張、碳粉等等；而就工程來講，應該朝著另外一個層面，也就是怎麼樣從工程本身的設計、規劃去考量。"],["蔡委員其昌：對。"],["吳主任委員澤成：包括材料的選擇……"],["蔡委員其昌：沒有錯，這些我都支持，但有沒有方法？有沒有方法讓這個數字可以開始往上走，而不是一直停頓在這裡？"],["吳主任委員澤成：我覺得可以從開始選商的時候就納入評選的要求。"],["蔡委員其昌：好。","因為主委要卸任了，我希望公共工程委員會的同仁在新主委來了之後還是要告訴他，本席的關注焦點就是這個，這是我對公共工程委員會認為最重要的，我未來4年都會問這個題目，就是SDGs永續循環經濟，就只有這個題目而已啦！所以對於新來的主委，你們要告訴他趕快訂目標，本席每一年都在追蹤、考察你們有沒有照這樣的目標去做。謝謝主委。","接下來，請職安署的鄒署長。"],["主席：鄒署長。"],["鄒署長子廉：委員好。"],["蔡委員其昌：署長好。署長，在我們的永續發展目標裡面，勞動部有做自我檢視嘛！其中核心目標八是促進包容且永續的經濟成長，在具體目標裡面，有促進工作環境安全及保障女性勞工參與工會權益，也訂出了對應指標，對吧？"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：我看了一下這項數字，因為時間有限，我看了一下職災死亡的千人率，我不管高跟低，只問一個問題，就是看起來沒有明顯的下降趨勢，署長有沒有什麼目標或方法？"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員關注這個議題，其實我們也訂了中長程計畫，2030年是永續發展的階段目標，部長有親自指示我們要在2030年達到職災減半，特別是死亡的部分。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯。"],["鄒署長子廉：所以我們會來努力。訂了目標後，我們確實壓力很大，但是應該進步就要進步，所以我們具體承諾社會在2030年重大職災死亡人數要減半。"],["蔡委員其昌：沒錯，我也知道要這樣。那剩下6年嘛！"],["鄒署長子廉：是。"],["蔡委員其昌：針對這6年的路徑一定要出來，不然數字不會到了2030年就忽然自動減半，這不可能！我是很擔心，因為看趨勢，雖然只有2年，但是照這個趨勢看起來就沒有下降，邏輯上應該是要緩慢下降，但看起來這兩年並沒有這樣的趨勢。所以本席必須在這個質詢臺上監督，同時期盼勞動部對於達到這個數字一定要有具體路徑出來，不然不會到了2030年忽然之間死亡人數就減半嘛！","我知道有勞檢、取締等等，但除此之外，其實應該建立起另外的思維，有沒有可能用什麼樣的方式可以給我們更大的利器跟這些營造廠商合作，透過什麼樣的教育方式或提醒方式，或是有什麼樣的機制，除了事後的取締之外，當然這也很重要，因為有些人就是很賴皮，什麼都不做，那當然要嚴格處分，這點本席沒有意見，對於這種廠商要處理。但還是有很多人其實願意配合，只是他或許方法不好、不知道該怎麼做，那勞動部應該可以主動、積極地為這些人想出一套方法，對於壞學生有壞學生的處分方式，面對好學生也有好學生的方法，如果把好學生教得更好，或許這個數字就會逐年下降。本席談的路徑其實是這個概念，也就是要有一些具體作法，因為在沒有聯合國SGDs的時候，我們還是在這樣做嘛！有了這個之後，我們的目標要把數字減半，相關方式、路徑就要早早開始動。署長同意嘛！"],["鄒署長子廉：非常謝謝委員指教。我們的重點應該是跨部會合作、公私協力，因為只有做勞檢不會達到目標，我們認為這是不可能的。"],["蔡委員其昌：對，沒有錯。"],["鄒署長子廉：所以要從整個上、中、下游，從源頭的設計到最後執行，對好的給予鼓勵，對不好的給予課責，成為整體上的循環。"],["蔡委員其昌：處罰，沒錯。所以處罰是其中一塊啦！這點不可能停嘛！也不應該停嘛！但你要另闢一條路徑，死亡人數才可以下降，好不好？謝謝。"],["鄒署長子廉：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","蔡其昌委員發言完畢。","現在請張智倫委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":166,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-10","speakers":["李昆澤","林國成","黃健豪","陳素月","魯明哲","何欣純","徐富癸","林沛祥","蔡其昌","許智傑","張智倫","黃國昌","林俊憲","游顥","羅智強","洪孟楷","王鴻薇","邱若華","廖先翔"],"page_start":123,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請行政院公共工程委員會、勞動部就「公共工程職業安全衛生改善暨降低職業災害辦理情\n形」進行專題報告，並備質詢；二、審查113年度中央政府總預算關於行政院公共工程委員會預\n算凍結案計7案","agenda_id":"1133901_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":3.42284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.020968750000002,"end":19.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.17971875,"end":21.934718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.49159375,"end":42.01596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.48846875,"end":47.399093750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.618468750000005,"end":49.424093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.98096875,"end":64.83096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.37096875,"end":71.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.23909375000001,"end":75.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.31034375,"end":81.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.41471875,"end":90.75096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":92.40471875,"end":98.88471875},{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明年成長1%成長2%逐年我們要把綠色採購成長那我們遇到的障礙是什麼"},{"start":244.838,"end":263.297,"text":"就沒有這些數據的統計跟管理我們沒有辦法訂定政策跟目標嘛主委這樣你懂我的意思所以本席要求要訂這個看起來公共工程會也沒有意見嘛只是加了環境部所以這是本席第一個我覺得應該來做在綠色採購上面第二個呢"},{"start":264.755,"end":288.72,"text":"在剛剛主委有去提到包括建築嘛建材啊等等那我們現在這個當然公有建築物的公有建築的所謂這個綠建築的標章這個是內政部在發啦但是內政部在發是發給你說你這個建築物有沒有符合綠色建築有我就給你綠色建築的標章嘛但是這個是他決定要做這件事情"},{"start":289.602,"end":302.761,"text":"然後呢透過內政部的檢查給予合格標章那公共工程委員會要不要鼓勵或者我們有想出什麼樣的這個政策目標讓綠建築去申請的人變多主委"},{"start":306.052,"end":313.498,"text":"你有沒有什麼想法可以增加綠建築因為那個綠建築你看內政部的這個資料108年有191件到了112年也不過218件那蔡總統宣布2050淨零碳白的時間是在110年你看111年、112年其實都比110年件數來得少"},{"start":331.294,"end":341.961,"text":"所以本席的意思是說公共工程委員會應該訂定目標嘛對於綠色採購、綠色建築我們都應該有明確的這個方向跟目標主委你的看法呢"},{"start":342.435,"end":371.504,"text":"我覺得兩方面跟委員報告那麼從各機關的採購也許會走向剛剛講的紙張、碳粉等等那就工程來講應該朝著另外一個層面怎麼樣從這一個工程本身的設計規劃去考量對包括材料的選擇沒有錯 這個我都支持有沒有方法有沒有方法讓這個數字可以開始往上走而不是一直停頓在這裡"},{"start":372.418,"end":393.383,"text":"我覺得我們可以來從開始選商的時候就能夠納入評選的要求因為主委要卸任了啦所以我希望公共工程委員會的同仁新來的主委之後你還是要告訴他本期的關注焦點就是這個我對公共工程委員會最重要未來四年我都會問這個題目"},{"start":395.06,"end":396.281,"text":"主委你先請休息一下好不好?謝謝"},{"start":424.022,"end":452.735,"text":"委員好,好,署長好,署長那個齁我們齁在這個我們的這個永續的發展目標裡面我們勞動部有做自我檢視嘛那其中啊這個核心目標的8叫促進包容且永續的經濟成長其中具體目標裡面我們有促進工作環境安全及保障女性勞工參與工會權益然後我們也訂出了對應的指標對吧是"},{"start":453.895,"end":469.213,"text":"我看了一下這個數字因為時間有限我看了一下那個職災死亡的千人率我不管高跟低我只問一個問題就是說看起來沒有明顯的那種下降的這個趨勢"},{"start":471.636,"end":474.957,"text":"市長有沒有什麼目標或方法?市長有沒有什麼目標或方法?市長有沒有什麼目標或方法?市長有沒有什麼目標或方法?市長有沒有什麼目標或方法?"},{"start":501.505,"end":527.511,"text":"那這個六年這個路徑一定要出來啦不然的話他不會到2030那一年就自動忽然數字就減半了這不可能所以呢我是很擔心因為看趨勢齁雖然只有兩年啦齁這個趨勢看起來就沒有下沒有應該邏輯上他應該是緩慢要一直下降但看起來這兩年並沒有這樣的趨勢所以本席必須要在這個執行台上來監督同時期盼"},{"start":528.251,"end":528.291,"text":"所以﹖"},{"start":538.627,"end":560.517,"text":"我知道就是說我們除了這些什麼勞檢啊取締這個之外其實我們應該建立起應該另外的思維有沒有可能什麼樣的方式可以我們更大的力氣跟這些營造廠商來合作透過怎麼樣的教育方式或者提醒方式或者什麼樣的機制讓他除了事後的取締"},{"start":561.738,"end":582.572,"text":"之外,當然這個也很重要嘛,因為有些人就是很懶惰,他就是每天都不做,當然你要把他嚴格處分這個本席沒有意見,對這種,但是還是有很多人他其實很願意配合,或許他方法不好,或許他不知道該怎麼做,那勞動部應該可以主動積極的把這些人"},{"start":584.325,"end":607.826,"text":"想出一套方法所以壞學生有壞學生的處分方式好學生有好學生的方法所以你把好學生教得更好或許他們你這個數字就會逐年下降所以本期談的這個路徑其實是這個概念就是我們要有一些具體的做法因為我們沒有聯合國這SDGs的時候我們還是這樣在做嘛但有了這個之後我們目標要把它減半"},{"start":608.697,"end":634.185,"text":"那個方式路徑就要早早就要開始動,署長同意嗎?非常謝謝委員指教,我們的重點應該是,跨部會合作,公私協力,委員會不會只有做勞檢才會達到目標,我認為這是不可能的,整個是從上中下游,從源頭的設計到最後執行,到好的給鼓勵,不好的給你克制,整體上的循環。所以處罰是一塊啦,這個你不可能停嘛,也不應該停嘛。"},{"start":634.645,"end":635.806,"text":"蔡其昌委員"}]}},{"id":"152082","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152082","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db128262d372bed769e455ccb8302deb5eb55be169921a0a71761ad045f983e26e85ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"許智傑","委員發言時間":"10:48:14 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11:39:03","影片長度":"00:11:03","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議（事由：一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報告，並備質詢。\n二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案」案。(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」案。(三)委員馬文君等17人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條及第十九條條文修正草案」案。(四)委員盧縣一等20人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條、第十二條及第二十一條條文修正草案」案。\n(僅進行詢答)【4月29日及5月2日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":10,"committees":[22],"id":"委員會-11-1-22-10"},"duration":663,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:39:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:28:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":710,"blocks":[["張委員雅琳：（11時28分）謝謝主席！有請潘部長。"],["主席：請部長。謝謝！"],["潘部長文忠：委員好！"],["張委員雅琳：部長好！上次已經討論過有關於少子化的問題，不管是大學還是小學都可能會有少子化的問題，我們必須要做些因應，其實在107年我們制定這個偏鄉教育條例的時候，裡面提到一個很重要的關鍵就是穩定的師資，不要再讓學生們問「老師，你會不會回來？」，但是我想現在應該是要問「學校，你還會不會在？」，在教育部的停辦準則裡面有說同一鄉鎮市區只有一所國小或國中或者是到鄰近的學校有交通重大安全疑慮的時候，不得停辦。第九條也規定合併或停辦應由地方主管機關依本法第十條……進行評估，並送中央主管機關備查，但是上次我已經講了這個潭墘國小其實並沒有直接說要停辦，到開學的時候就把學生轉走了，這件事情有說要備查，請問現在進度到哪裡？已經備查了嗎？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，謝謝委員的關心，我們對於那些要整併的學校要收拾起來有一個很嚴謹的規則，這個原則也就是要確保學生受教的權益。"],["張委員雅琳：我想要瞭解這個個案的情況。"],["潘部長文忠：假如說這個學校真的要終止、廢校了，一定要得到充分的溝通，但是看起來這個潭墘國小，社區並不支持縣政府這樣的作法，所以這個案子到目前教育部還沒合併。"],["張委員雅琳：但是學生都轉走了，有沒有備查對學生來說好像也已經於事無補了。而且我覺得還要提一個重點，就是這個學校才剛領完經費，整修完圖書館，然後又停辦了，這對我來說、對我們大家來說都是一個資源的浪費。同時我也想要再延伸這個題目，就是彰化的大城鄉在2020年也停辦了永光國小，這個小學停辦之後家長就把小孩轉到了頂庄國小，沒多久頂庄國小又停辦廢校了，這就嚴重了，因為這等於是說小孩才剛適應了這個學校，沒多久他又要去適應另一個學校，我想部長一定非常瞭解，孩子需要有穩定的秩序感才能夠有一個很好的學習表現，可是這樣子等於是讓這些孩子的受教權嚴重的被打擊，他等於一直不停的在適應。我們現在再看一下潭墘國小，他們在2023年停辦的時候學生數有29個，我算了一下，我們現在29人以下的國小，偏鄉國小數有168校，將近所有偏鄉國小的五分之一，全部國小校數現在是2,672所，裡面有178所，所以這樣子的停辦看起來好像就是首長自己的決定而不是真的依循了家長、居民等等的意願，剛剛我講的就是我們還是要回到孩子的受教權這件事情，請問你們有沒有去瞭解連續停辦3所國小這個問題？是不是有考慮協助他們以分校的方式來進行呢？"],["潘部長文忠：我跟委員報告，縣市國民中小學興辦的相關權責，依地方制度法本來就在地方政府，我想法制面的規範是如此，但是教育部當時制定這個準則也做了一個要求，這當中完全認同委員剛才談到的學校人數再少，每一個學生受教的權益是一定要被確立的，我們為什麼要要求核備，為的就是當你比如說溝通完，到底某個學校的這些學生怎麼去安排，他如果要到其他的學校，那他的交通問題甚至有沒有其他應該有的配套等，這些都是我們備查裡要求的要件。"],["張委員雅琳：對，但是現況就是他們其實都沒有完成卻已經做了這些事情，聽起來就是非常不合理。"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，不管地方政府或首長，也要面對地方自己的縣市民，教育部就是依法做適法監督，即如同跟委員講的，我覺得潭墘國小的程序還沒有適當完備，所以教育部不會去核備這個停辦案。"],["張委員雅琳：沒關係，因為時間問題，這部分監察院其實已經介入調查，民眾也提告了，我想我們對這部分就持續的關心。但是我還是要回到這件事情，因為學生數其實是迅速的下降，117年跟111年相較，學生數整整少了30萬人，這樣子的話，我們的停辦準則應該要有更細緻的規劃，譬如說學生人數啦、優先改成分校的形式或是停辦的時程等等，都應該要有一個一定的標準，所以在沒有完成備查程序之前，學生留在原校就讀。請問這件事情可不可行？"],["潘部長文忠：如果以這個個案來講，未核備其實講真的表示這個停辦應該還沒有確定，如果以這樣來說，我們再來看看這個準則是不是在過渡過程當中應該要再做怎麼樣的一些修正，我們可能要做一個檢討。"],["張委員雅琳：再來就是有關特教的部分，我當然感謝也很肯定教育部潘部長過去這幾年其實有調降特教生的師生比，然後也提供了相當大的資源跟資金來協助第一線的老師跟助理員；但我覺得還是有一個實際上的問題，就是特教資源中心即將法制化，聽起來是要協助學校在特殊教育方面做更好的推廣跟落實，可是我們來看了一下這個薪資表，先看深粉紅色的部分，今天同樣都是五年年資的老師，若加上主管加給及不休假獎勵，學校的特教組長可以得到67萬；可是當他今天去了資源中心變成召集人的時候，我現在算的紅色的地方，都是先幫他算進去的，最高大概是66萬，整整比在學校要少。如果是一般的老師，他留在學校可以領到61萬，到了資源中心就變成59萬，而且還沒有寒暑假，這些都是有特教加給的數字。所以我想要確認，像這樣的薪資到底要如何吸引老師願意去資源中心？到資源中心的老師，應該是要更有經驗的去協助各地的老師處理問題！第一、我們到底有沒有特教加給，這是老師非常關注的問題；第二、只有兼職召集人跟副召集人可以兼領這個兼職費嗎？原本行政院公告的草案第十六條說召集人每個月可以支領專業領導費6,000元，但是近期開說明會的時候，草案文字卻從每個月的6,000元變成了5,000元，為什麼召集人跟副召集人的專業領導費變成兼職費，數字還降低了？這樣一來就更沒有意願去特教資源中心，我認為這是協助學校一個非常重要的資源。在這種狀況下，不能只讓老師靠熱情跟使命感去協助，所以，我們到底要如何吸引特教老師前往服務呢？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，這個已經是數十年的問題，首先要謝謝大院在去年通過國教法跟特教法的修法，讓幾個輔導團及各中心有這樣一個法制化的機會。同時我也跟委員報告，我們整體面對的不只是特教，因為各縣市所成立的國教輔導團是各領域都有，包含特教的各種資訊也都有，所以當時在討論這件事情的時候，教育部是極力的幫忙，但涉及教師待遇等等的，一定要報行政院，這部分溝通的過程，真的花了比較長的時間，最後在法規適用上也有所突破，把那個兼職還有其他相關的獎勵措施一併算是通過完成。"],["張委員雅琳：這樣看起來，到底會不會有特教加給，我想這是老師非常關心的？能不能兼領兼職費，兼職費金額到底是多少？"],["潘部長文忠：跟委員報告，我剛才為什麼會說它是整個地方政府相關的組成，不是單獨的一部分，所以行政院這次在核定各方面，應該是比較一致性的給教育部、給各縣市政府，不是單一項目；如果今天有單獨的項目，我們可能要另外從這方面去考慮，因為這涉及到教師待遇，不是教育部單獨決定，行政院當然也有它全面性的考量。我要跟委員報告，這次已經是一個很大的突破，我們也溝通了好幾個月……"],["張委員雅琳：但是，我想這還是會回到老師為什麼要過去的這個問題，老師就會變成沒有意願去資源中心嘛！"],["潘部長文忠：委員，我知道，儘管我520之後不接，我想我跨了這一步，我都當作一定要在這個之前把它完成，現在也完成，我相信後續在各項能不能再有一定的努力，是不是我們再接續……"],["張委員雅琳：好，不好意思，我再問10秒鐘，這個部分到底什麼時候會公布實施？"],["潘部長文忠：這本來就適用新學年開始……"],["張委員雅琳：這個草案，在新學年……"],["潘部長文忠：新的113學年度。"],["張委員雅琳：113學年度？"],["潘部長文忠：對，現在整個已經完備，我們開始準備公告，但是真的開始適用，要在新學年度。"],["張委員雅琳：沒關係，我們會後繼續討論。"],["潘部長文忠：至於未來有哪些特別的部分，我想可以用這個基礎再往前走……"],["張委員雅琳：我們會後再討論好了。"],["潘部長文忠：不要說以往這些縣市在找的這些，什麼都沒有，只有一個名譽而已，我想這樣不對，應該法制化才對。"],["張委員雅琳：對，理解，但是前提還是要解決啦！"],["潘部長文忠：謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。接下來請吳春城委員發言。在林倩綺委員質詢完畢後，我們處理臨時提案。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":378,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-22-10","speakers":["柯志恩","盧縣一","萬美玲","洪孟楷","葛如鈞","吳沛憶","林宜瑾","陳培瑜","葉元之","郭昱晴","陳秀寳","羅廷瑋","張雅琳","吳春城","林倩綺","徐富癸","何欣純","黃仁","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","鍾佳濱","范雲","邱志偉","黃珊珊","劉建國"],"page_start":311,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00006"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第10次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"一、邀請教育部列席就「『偏遠地區學校教育發展條例』施行迄今之成效及檢討」進行專題報\n告，並備質詢；二、審查(一)委員柯志恩等18人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第八條條文修\n正草案」案、(二)委員魯明哲等24人擬具「偏遠地區學校教育發展條例第十六條條文修正草案」\n案、( 三) 委員馬文君等17 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10會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育"},{"start":12.723,"end":41.926,"text":"委員好部長好那就是因為上次已經有討論過有關於這個少子化的問題我們應該要提供給小學不管是大學包含是小學可能會有這個少子化的問題我們必須要做些因應嘛那其實在107年我們制定這個偏鄉教育條例的時候呢裡面有提到一個很重要關鍵就是穩定的師資所以讓學生們不要再問老師你會不會回來但是我想現在應該是要問學校你還會不會在"},{"start":43.086,"end":70.632,"text":"所以在教育部的準則裡面有說同一鄉鎮市區只有一所國小或國中的時候呢或者是說到鄰近的學校有交通重大安全疑慮的時候不得停辦那根據第九條也有規定就是說合併或停辦應由地方主管機關依本法第十條等等等等進行評估等等之後呢來進送那個中央主管機關備查但是就上次我也其實講了這個談前國小他其實並沒有"},{"start":72.699,"end":80.255,"text":"開學時直接要停辦轉走學生這件事有說要被查,現在進度在哪裡?已經被查了嗎?"},{"start":81.104,"end":86.065,"text":"我跟委員報告謝謝委員這個當時我們那些有關要整併這個學校要就是要收拾起來的有一個很嚴謹的規則這個原則也就是要確保學生受教的權益目前因為他這個部分我所謂的這個學校比如說真的要終止要廢校了你一定要得到充分的溝通但是看起來沒有以這個"},{"start":108.269,"end":118.092,"text":"彈犬國小社區並不是支持縣政府這樣的做法所以這個案子到目前教育部還沒核備但是學生都轉走了沒有被查有沒有被查就學生好像已經於事無補了而且我覺得還要提一個重點就是說這個學校才剛領完經費整修完圖書館"},{"start":125.555,"end":135.982,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會第3會期教育及文化委員會第4會期教育及文化委員會第5會期教育及文化委員會第6會期教育及文化委員會第7會期教育及文化委員會第8會期教育及文化委員會第9會期教育及文化委員會第10會期教育及文化委員會第11會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第13會期教育及文化委員會第14會期教育及文化委員會第14會"},{"start":147.748,"end":162.49,"text":"教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。 廢校這就嚴重這等於是說這個小孩本來才剛適應了這個學校他又要去適應個學校那我想部長一定非常了解孩子需要在一個穩定的秩序感才能夠有一個很好的學習表現嘛可是這樣子等於是讓這些孩子的受教權"},{"start":163.351,"end":164.231,"text":"教育發展條例第八條條文修正草案案。"},{"start":192.097,"end":214.012,"text":"這樣子停辦看起來好像就是首長自己決定而並不是爭著依循了家長、居民等等的意願所以我想要回到剛剛講的就是說我們還是要回到孩子的受教權這件事情那我們有沒有去了解這個連續停辦三所國小的這個問題是不是也有考慮協助他們來做分校的方式來進行呢?"},{"start":216.074,"end":238.371,"text":"我跟委員報告當然縣市國民中小學那個整個新辦的相關的權責啦一地方制度法本來就在地方政府這個我想法制面的規範是如此但是教育部當時為什麼制定這個準則也做了一個要求這個當中完全認同委員剛才談到學校人數再少"},{"start":239.614,"end":260.509,"text":"學生受教每一個學生受教的權益是一定要被確立的我們在為什麼要要求這個核備就是說當你比如說溝通完到底比如像以某個學校的這些學生你怎麼去安排他如果要到其他的學校那他的交通問題甚至有沒有其他應該有的配套這些都是我們備查裡面要求的要件"},{"start":261.329,"end":283.056,"text":"對,但是我們現在的現況就是說他們其實都沒有完成,但是他也就已經做了這些事情嘛,那聽起來就是非常不合理。我也跟委員告告,不管地方政府或首長也要面對地方他自己的縣市民,因為我覺得教育部依法做事法監督,就是跟委員講的,像談錢國小我覺得程序還沒有做適當完備,所以教育部不會去核配他這個這個停辦案。"},{"start":285.165,"end":313.144,"text":"好 那我想沒關係 因為時間的問題我想這部分監察院其實也已經介入調查了那民眾也提告了我想我們這部分就持續的關心但是我還是要回到這件事情就是說因為學生數其實就是迅速的下降從117年 我們看右邊這張圖它跟111年比起來學生數就是整整少了30萬30萬的人數那這樣子的話我們的應該這個停辦準則要有更細緻的一個規劃啦譬如說是學生人數啦或是優先改從剛剛講的分校的形式"},{"start":313.664,"end":322.463,"text":"或者是停辦的時程等等都應該有一個一定的標準所以這個在沒有完成被查程序之前學生留在原校就讀這件事情可不可行"},{"start":324.119,"end":328.001,"text":"委員這個如果以這個個案來講我們為何被即時獎證的表示這個庭辦應該還沒有確定那如果以這樣我們再來看看我們這個準則是不是在過渡過程當中應該要再做怎麼樣的去做一些修正我們做一個檢討"},{"start":344.887,"end":373.974,"text":"那再來就是說就是在特教我非常感謝就是也很肯定教育部部長潘部長過去這幾年就是其實有調降這個特教生的師生比然後也提供了相當當的資源跟資金來協助第一線的老師跟助理教助理員但是我覺得我們現在還是有一個實際上的問題就是說我們特教資源中心即將法制化那聽起來是對於要來協助學校做更好的一個特殊教育的一個推廣跟落實但是我看了一下這個薪資的問題就是說呢"},{"start":374.674,"end":377.398,"text":"教育及文化委員會第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第2會期教育及文化委員會"},{"start":383.506,"end":406.505,"text":"這個深粉紅色的,如果一個同樣都是五年師資、年資的老師今天他如果加上主管加給及不休假獎勵一個老師他可以得到67萬在學校的特教組長他是可以得到67萬可是當他今天去了資源中心變成召集人的時候"},{"start":407.185,"end":412.351,"text":"最高66萬,整整比在學校少。一般老師留在學校61萬,到資源中心就是59萬,而且還沒有寒暑假。"},{"start":425.907,"end":447.581,"text":"那這些都是剛剛講有特教加級的數字所以我想要確認喔因為像這樣子的薪資喔到底要如何吸引老師們願意去資源中心因為這個到資源中心的老師應該是有更有經驗的去協助各地的老師的一些問題嘛所以第一個我們到底有沒有特教加級這是老師非常關注的"},{"start":453.094,"end":461.996,"text":"負招及人可以兼領兼職費嗎?原本行政院公告的草案第16條是有說他們可以資領專業領導費,每個月6千塊。"},{"start":469.619,"end":491.124,"text":"但是呢這個近期開說明會的時候呢草案文字卻變成從每個月的六千塊變成了五千塊所以呢這個召集人跟副召集人為什麼從專業領導費變成兼職費而且數字還降低了那這樣子會更沒有意願去特教資源中心那我認為這是一個非常重要的一個"},{"start":491.964,"end":512.551,"text":"資源來協助學校,所以我想要詢問這幾個問題,如果在這種狀況之下不能夠只有讓老師套熱情跟使命感去來協助,所以我們到底要如何來吸引特教老師前往服務呢?我跟委員報告這是也要謝謝我們大院在去年通過國教法跟特教法的修法才是讓"},{"start":513.311,"end":524.103,"text":"立法院第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員會第11屆第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教育及文化委員會第12會期教"},{"start":531.551,"end":538.816,"text":"立法院第11屆第1會期教育及文化委員會第12屆第13屆第14屆第14屆第15屆第16屆第17屆第18屆第18屆第18屆第19屆第19屆第19屆第20屆第20屆第21屆第21屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆第22屆"},{"start":561.331,"end":584.105,"text":"對,但是現在看起來我們到底會不會有特教加級?我想這是老師非常關心的。特教加級能不能兼領兼職費?兼職費的金額到底是多少?我跟委員報告,我剛才為什麼會說它是整個地方政府的相關組成,不是單獨的單一。所以行政院這一次在核定的各方面應該是比較一致性的給教育部"},{"start":584.985,"end":603.252,"text":"給各縣市政府,不是單獨為單一項目。」如果說今天如果有單獨的我們可能要另外從這方面去考慮因為這個涉及教師待遇不是教育部單獨決定行政院當然也有它全面性的考慮這一次我要跟委員報告這已經是一個很大的突破也溝通了好幾個月"},{"start":603.852,"end":629.16,"text":"對,但是我想這還是會回到就是說那學老師為什麼要過去?老師就會變成沒有意願的志願就是嗎?是是,我要知道我想我跨這一步儘管我520之後不接我都把它當成一定要在這個之前把它完成現在也完成那我相信後續在各項的能不能再有一定的再努力是不是我們再接續啦好,那不好意思我再問10秒鐘就是說那這個到底什麼時候會公佈實施呢?這個本來就試用新學年開始了"},{"start":631.461,"end":647.208,"text":"新學年對,11、3學年度現在就是整個已經完備了現在我們會開始準備做公告但是真的開始試用就新學年度好,沒關係那我們會繼續討論這個好不好未來有哪些我們特別我想可以用這個基礎再走啦"},{"start":648.052,"end":660.658,"text":"對,但是我們會後續討論好了。這不要說以往這些縣市在找的這些什麼都沒有,只有一個名譽而已啦。我想這不對,應該法治化才對。對,理解。好,但是其實也是要解決啦。好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152080","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152080","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db1533e1b968874a35a2e2d519231ec7ad855be169921a0a7170ee1a9492a26f8aa5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"11:27:46 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院檢都在喊書類簡化但是你書類簡化你真的有在推動嗎那你有在追蹤說到底書類簡化了多少"},{"start":298.166,"end":314.665,"text":"我只知道一件事啊我以前在當檢察官的時候我也想寫簡化的書類但是我的檢察長、我的相約、我的主任跟我說你不要寫簡化的書類到時候書類送成會吃虧那這樣搞下去大家不敢寫簡化的書類或是即便你時任了你寫簡化的書類大家還是意見很多"},{"start":318.135,"end":333.579,"text":"我剛剛提到的幾個 譬如說檢方你是不是92條你要好好的改一下 院方你是不是要把認罪跟否認跟認罪的刑度要拉大我一直沒有辦法理解為什麼主席不好意思喔 讓給我一點點時間"},{"start":337.256,"end":347.571,"text":"我必須講一個啦我今天待過司法機關我待過行政機關當過機關我來立法機關行政、立法、司法三權我都走過我真的不知道長官你們在幹什麼"},{"start":349.67,"end":374.93,"text":"你今天司法院你讓法官獨立審判沒有錯我們無權自慰沒有錯但是承認否認你刑度不拉大你就告知檢察官告知法官所有的被告到庭到警察那裡不承認檢察官那裡不承認一審不承認反正我二審承認刑度判的也一樣我幹嘛那麼笨蛋要提早承認結果呢搞下來是不是搞死這些在做偵查在審理的法官"},{"start":375.811,"end":391.28,"text":"就你們我講的都大家檢方律師都喊了很久司法院永遠不做任何處理就給我回一句獨立審判那你可以宣導嘛那我不懂為什麼你要搞慘這些法官呢這些檢察官"},{"start":392.837,"end":415.359,"text":"這個都是可以馬上做的事情你承認否認刑度你竟然要抄美國的行政訴訟制度美國承認否認刑度差多少就我們這裡在玩什麼東西的不但把那個沒有效率的制度玩兩次之外你承認否認刑度還一樣多一個月而已那誰要來認罪啊所以這個都是司法院你該處理的東西吧"},{"start":417.148,"end":423.229,"text":"譬如替代判決這也可以很快可以做到啊沒有正義的東西是不是就不要再寫那麼多"},{"start":424.093,"end":446.973,"text":"判決理由因為判決書厚厚一本當事人只看主文阿你其他是寫給二審看的寫給其他法官看的那幹嘛自己搞自己很多東西喔不需要讓這個判決書這麼這麼漏漏等的是不是該刪就把它刪掉很多東西用比如取代判決或是根本就不需要"},{"start":447.754,"end":457.004,"text":"有這麼多的判決理由要寫在裡面或是簡單的條列化或像剛剛有律師提的就像罰單一樣這麼簡單勾一勾簡單寫幾個字就好來簡化偵查書類或裁判書類的製作時間最後我想提一個東西"},{"start":470.328,"end":498.968,"text":"該除罪話的東西我們還是要盡量推除罪話公然無辱不違憲其實我覺得這一點我可以接受但是它不代表不能除罪話那個是憲法有沒有違憲的問題但是在法律上面我們可以除罪啊它沒有必要存在嘛我罵你一句髒話結果我要用全民那麼多我們全民繳的稅金司法預算是全民的稅金我要拿全國人的錢來滿足你的心情"},{"start":500.536,"end":527.648,"text":"這個沒有道理嘛那如果你今天要告你要告民事訴訟那你自己去繳裁判費去告啊為什麼一堆檢察官要把他放進來然後公然無路如果不除罪的話現在網路那麼發達基隆的人告屏東的就屏東要來 屏東的被告要來基隆開庭就到最後不起訴或判無罪這不就人民的損失嗎所以這東西該除罪的話我們是不是早就應該要要積極地做這件事情了"},{"start":528.848,"end":536.854,"text":"最後我再講一個我上一次在這邊質詢部長以及司法院秘書長的時候我曾經提過一個數據我是在2020年離開檢方的2019年的數據到去年的數據全國檢方總受案量增加了47%也就是全國新案多了快五成"},{"start":556.212,"end":584.74,"text":"那我再看一下房價這7年啦是增加了98%也就是我們也就是檢方新案的增加率跟房價差不多了我為什麼要講到房價年輕人啦對於現在的房價有多無奈多想躺平做到工作再多也買不起房子有多無奈多想躺平現在的法官檢察官對於現在案件量就有多無奈多想躺平啦"},{"start":586.052,"end":602.98,"text":"因為你再怎麼努力你還是結不完那但是法官、假官不能躺平他就拼命地做拿自己的家庭生活拿自己的健康去跟他拼麻煩一下沒有合理的數量絕對不可能有"},{"start":604.127,"end":604.147,"text":"吳宗憲"},{"start":634.963,"end":635.043,"text":"吳宗憲委員"}]}},{"id":"152079","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152079","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6f015fe8e6787db15013cd786d788849d575e50b9cd8685a55be169921a0a717b70b6df063f2d9295ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"11:32:34 - 11:38:13","影片長度":"00:05:39","會議時間":"2024-05-02T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議（事由：審查\n一、委員王育敏等19人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n二、委員蘇清泉等28人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案。\n【以上議案，如經復議則不予審查】）","date":"2024-05-02","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":14,"committees":[26],"id":"委員會-11-1-26-14"},"duration":339,"end_time":"2024-05-02T11:38:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-02T11:32:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":726,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（11時32分）謝謝主席，是不是請薛部長。"],["主席：我們請薛部長。"],["薛部長瑞元：委員好。"],["林委員德福：部長好，111年健保給付金額前20大藥品，高血壓、高血脂、高血糖等三高藥物用量最多，凸顯高齡化社會用藥的狀況。西藥供應資訊平台從今年一月到現在，社區藥局共通報過52種藥品短缺，有藥師擔心年底恐怕會有缺藥潮，屆時全國有六百多萬名慢性病患用藥權益可能會受損。","本席提醒衛福部，不要讓民眾有斷藥的風險，同時也要進行專案稽查，做好藥品品質的把關，以避免廠商動手腳，影響民眾用藥的權益。部長你有什麼看法？"],["薛部長瑞元：這個目前我們都是一直在接受通報當中，我們也持續在monitor這件事情。缺藥的情形如果是在事前可以發現的話，我們會去做一些處理，但是另外一方面的話，我們也希望如果有取代的學名藥，那大家就不要太過擔心。"],["林委員德福：好，我是認為這個要去重視啦！部長，首先本席支持減少重複用藥，以減少不必要的醫療行為，感謝基層同仁的把關，減少全民健保的浪費。當民眾就醫量暴增，而且超過預估的服務總量時，健保點值就會被稀釋，醫療院所收入將會減少，現行費用的總額推估難免有失準之處。而預估不足的部分，全由醫療人員吸收承擔不盡合理，因此112年行政院動支51億元來補貼健保點值，本席支持法制化來補足健保的點值，希望衛福部能審慎考慮，不要一味反對在野黨的提案。你的看法呢？"],["薛部長瑞元：基本上以去年度到今年都還在執行的，就是點值補到0.9，我們目前已經用掉五十幾億了。這個部分的話，我們的確看到了，第一個當然新冠疫情從公務預算支付變成健保支付，造成的服務量增加。第二個就基層來講，其實這一段時間我們看到的是，基層的看感冒等等這些疾病的比例是降低的，而慢性病尤其是拿慢籤的長期處方籤的，在基層的數量增加很多。"],["林委員德福：我認為部長這部分一定要去重視，媒體報導曾有不肖的醫生收集街友的健保卡，虛報民眾就醫的紀錄，來詐領健保補助被健保署勾稽抓到。根據全民健保保險特約的醫事服務機構違規查處統計，111年一共有211件違規，112年有179件違規，113年1到3月已經有30件違規，從數據看起來似乎有逐年在遞減。請問衛福部，詐領健保的情況逐年減少的主要原因是為何？"],["薛部長瑞元：因為我們是用系統性的去做查核，所以許多這種詐領的案件就比較容易發現。"],["林委員德福：所以說健保詐欺損失金額是不是逐年在降低？"],["薛部長瑞元：應該會是比較一直是在降低的。"],["林委員德福：好，最後一個議題，根據媒體報導，目前正值腸病毒流行期，上週上門診的急診就有差不多一萬四千多人次，較前一週上升17.3%。請問衛福部，全國腸病毒疫情高峰期你認為過了嗎？"],["薛部長瑞元：還沒有。"],["林委員德福：還在持續上升中？"],["薛部長瑞元：對。"],["林委員德福：據了解目前整個實驗室監測到腸病毒以克沙奇A型為主，而且容易引起重症的腸病毒71型只有零星輕症個案。請問衛福部，腸病毒71型是否會在今年大流行？"],["薛部長瑞元：目前還沒有這個跡象。"],["林委員德福：沒有這個跡象？"],["薛部長瑞元：沒有這個跡象，不過我們也在密切的注意。"],["林委員德福：好，要多注意，謝謝。"],["薛部長瑞元：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝林德福委員的質詢，接下來我們請賴士葆委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":242,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-26-14","speakers":["王育敏","蘇清泉","陳昭姿","陳菁徽","林月琴","黃秀芳","邱鎮軍","涂權吉","廖偉翔","劉建國","王正旭","林淑芬","林德福","賴士葆","李彥秀","盧縣一","楊瓊瓔","黃國昌","賴惠員","陳瑩","楊曜"],"page_start":167,"meetingDate":["2024-05-02"],"gazette_id":"1133901","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1133901_00004"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會第14次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"審查一、委員王育敏等18人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；二、委員蘇清\n泉等27人擬具「全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案；三、國民黨黨團擬具「全民健康\n保險法第六十二條條文修正草案」案","agenda_id":"1133901_00003"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.61221875,"end":7.16909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.22221875,"end":20.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.394718750000003,"end":22.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.204093750000002,"end":26.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":26.52471875,"end":27.402218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.402218750000003,"end":30.051593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.64221875,"end":31.300343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.60409375,"end":49.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.571593750000005,"end":51.111593750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":51.752843750000004,"end":58.570343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.77284375000001,"end":64.35846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.67909375,"end":73.45409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":73.57221875,"end":74.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.14596875000001,"end":81.21659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":81.21659375,"end":105.31409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.30034375000001,"end":85.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.31971875,"end":96.97784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":104.94284375000001,"end":112.62096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.85721875,"end":121.49721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":112.97534375000001,"end":112.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":121.61534375000001,"end":137.88284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":138.18659375000001,"end":140.16096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":140.32971875,"end":159.97221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":160.12409375000001,"end":163.93784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.93784375,"end":164.03909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.17409375,"end":188.49096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":174.34971875000002,"end":174.63659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.74409375000002,"end":191.78159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":192.13596875000002,"end":195.27471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":195.52784375000002,"end":202.58159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":202.73346875000001,"end":211.33971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":210.90096875,"end":243.89159375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":212.16659375,"end":212.30159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.14471875,"end":249.64596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":250.03409375,"end":256.96971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":256.9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bicyn 而前二十大藥品就高血壓、高血脂、高血糖等三高藥物用量最多,凸顯高齡化社會用藥的狀況。那西藥供應資訊平台從今年一月到現在,社區藥局共通"},{"start":50.649,"end":63.02,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案»案。netesi等一、委員王育敏等19人擬具 «全民健康保險法第六十二條條文修正草案»案。"},{"start":73.609,"end":96.117,"text":" bicyn 做好藥品品質的把關以避免廠商動手腳影響民眾用藥的權益,部長你有什麼看法?這目前我們都是一直在接受通報當中,我們也持續在monitor這件事情。那缺藥的情形如果是在事前是可以發現的話,那我們會去做一些處理。"},{"start":96.357,"end":96.517,"text":" bicyC."},{"start":96.517,"end":112.037,"text":"我希望另外一方面的話我們也希望說如果有取代的學民藥那就大家都不要太過擔心好啦我是認為這個要去重視啦那個部長首先本席支持減少重複用藥啦"},{"start":113.238,"end":137.148,"text":"一、減少不必要的醫療行為感謝基層同仁的把關減少全民健保的浪費當民眾就醫量暴增而且超過預估的服務總量時健保點值就會被稀釋醫療院所收入將會減少現行費用的總額推估難免有失準之處"},{"start":138.268,"end":163.755,"text":"那預估不足的部分全由醫療人員吸收承擔不盡合理因此 112年行政院動資51億元51億的錢來補貼健保點子本席支持法治化來補足健保的點子希望衛務部能審慎考慮不要一味反對在野黨的提案你的看法勒?"},{"start":164.835,"end":187.068,"text":"基本上以去年度的到今年度還在執行的點子補到0.09,我們目前已經用掉50幾億了。這個部分的話,的確是我們看到了新冠疫情從公共預算支付變成健保支付造成的服務量增加。"},{"start":187.688,"end":210.974,"text":"第二個就基層來講的話其實我們也發現說這一段時間我們看到的是基層的這種看感冒啦等等這一些這些疾病的比例是降低的而慢性病尤其是拿慢簽的長期慢性病長期處方簽的在基層的數量增加很多"},{"start":211.494,"end":212.915,"text":"二、委員王育敏等19人擬具"},{"start":229.48,"end":250.043,"text":"�"},{"start":250.143,"end":277.499,"text":" bicylian在地檢那請問那個衛福部乍領健保的情況竹林減少主要原因是為何因為我們很有用系統性的去做查核所以許多這種乍領的案件的話就比較容易去發生所以說這個健保乍期損失金額是不是竹林在降低應該會是比較一直是在降低的好最後一個議題齁"},{"start":279.485,"end":300.535,"text":"根據媒體報導目前正值長病毒流行期上週上門診的急診就有超14000多人次較前一週上升17.3%那請問衛福部全國長病毒疫情高峰期你認為過了嗎還沒有還在持續上升中"},{"start":305.177,"end":331.127,"text":"據瞭解目前整個實驗室監測到腸病毒以這個克沙奇A型為主而且容易引起重症的腸病毒71型只有林興輕症個案那請問衛福部腸病毒71型是否會在今年大流行呢目前還沒有這個跡象沒有這個跡象沒有這個跡象不過我們也在密切的注意要多注意謝謝謝謝"},{"start":333.553,"end":333.713,"text":"禮士堡委員"}]}}],"supported_filter_fields":["term","sessionPeriod","meet_id","legislator","committee_id","date"]}