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因為票價調整機制有一定的法定程序可以由國營 台灣"},{"start":564.222,"end":593.311,"text":"《鐵路股份有限公司進行研議合理化的票價調整方案》是該公司循序提報本部後將審慎進行審議並評估公司內部的營運條件外部的社會經濟情勢市場的供需情形以及對社會大眾及乘車旅客的衝擊跟影響最後再續報行政院核定"},{"start":595.766,"end":617.592,"text":"針對近年來台鐵準點率趨勢已經有逐漸提升本部都同台鐵公司現刻正加強各項旅運服務以安全準點為核心目標並致力提供快捷準確的旅運服務持續努力提升列車的準點率"},{"start":619.606,"end":639.608,"text":"這樣的一個指標已經納入了台鐵公司年度業務績效面向的考核項目同時也將確保營運安全改善霧點的問題來提升服務等優先作為優先事項以期待給旅客更加的乘車品質跟"},{"start":641.049,"end":641.309,"text":"請台鐵公司"},{"start":662.252,"end":669.614,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天應邀到交委會來進行專題報告．並備質詢．以下請就台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為．進行專題報告"},{"start":679.673,"end":704.048,"text":"一、台鐵票價上漲的議題背景說明是一、鐵路法第26條第一項規定國營鐵路運價率之計算公式由交通部擬定報請行政院送請立法院審定之變更是一同同條第二項規定國營鐵路之運價按前項公式計算由交通部報請行政院核定實施變更是一同"},{"start":705.087,"end":727.474,"text":"在立法院大院76年合訂鐵路客戶運價計算公式每兩年台鐵局跟台鐵公司都會依循來做檢討從84年開始雖然都有做檢討兩年一次但是已經有29年沒有辦法獲得獲准調整票價"},{"start":732.916,"end":750.406,"text":"目前辦理情形依據今年4月1號王部長在交通委員會第6次全體委員會議中表示在今年下半年度再來進行台鐵票價合理化方案的討論本公司原例"},{"start":751.706,"end":773.204,"text":"將按這個立法院決議的票價調整公式以去年112年決算的成本資料並且考量公司內部營運的條件外部社會經濟情勢市場供需等等情形來研議票價合理化方案那這個合理化的方案呢"},{"start":774.085,"end":800.102,"text":"必須經由公司董事會通過以後才能在韓報交通部提送費力審議委員會來進行審議最後續報行政院來核定第二部分報告臺鐵公司列車準點率提升的作為那依今年臺鐵公司的列車準點率在我們公司持續積極辦理各項設備的改善"},{"start":803.844,"end":831.943,"text":"車輛的態換以及車輛的投入等等我們的列車準點率從108年的90.97%逐步提升到去年112年的95.98%近5年列車準點率的一個提升的情形請參閱我們考量在近來列車主要誤點原因大概是"},{"start":833.104,"end":851.353,"text":"以天然災變跟死傷事故這些不可控的因素是為主那當然那其他包括我們車輛還有我們的設備這也是有在相當比例是我們要持續努力來加強來做改善的這個地方"},{"start":852.313,"end":866.69,"text":"那未來這個台鐵公司將持續加強各項的一個防範包括災害包括應變來維護我們行車的安全跟提升我們準點率的一個作為"},{"start":868.115,"end":878.244,"text":"後續改善作為台鐵公司會針對耗資故障跟車輛故障的這一部分持續積極辦理各項行車設備改善汰換的計畫引進行車並強化維修跟這個維養的流程並進行資訊化的系統的管理"},{"start":887.272,"end":908.964,"text":"提升行車設備跟列車的妥善率其次針對剛剛講有部分不可控因素我們會加強安全宣導提升用路輪的安全意識另外也會強化車站月台等等的設施避免旅客在月台會有意外的發生"},{"start":910.144,"end":925.136,"text":"第三項就是列車準點率現在已經納到我們公司的營業面向的重點評估指標之一所以我們會逐劑檢討設定列車準點率的目標值持續來進行管制跟改善"},{"start":926.096,"end":935.021,"text":"相關的KPI也列入公司年度的考核來要求我們公司內部一定要來達成113年的準點率我們是會達到97%"},{"start":941.744,"end":964.335,"text":"臺鐵公司是為了確保營運安全提升準點率跟旅運服務品質這三個重點都是列為我們公司的優先推動事項以其提供旅客跟民眾更好的乘車品質跟體驗同時能夠推動公司邁向永續經營以上報告敬請各位委員支持指教謝謝總長等一下是"},{"start":968.365,"end":993.602,"text":"你這個台鐵跟高鐵,你這個競爭對象是高鐵嗎?淨河淨河?淨河他有錢賺你沒錢賺?你現在從北部到高雄的票價等於跟高鐵快接近啊?對,你怎麼競爭?我當然做高鐵,我幹嘛做你台鐵?是不是?"},{"start":995.458,"end":1019.166,"text":"你講的是競合,我講的是競爭,這裡就有問題了你現在賺錢主要是靠東部嘛,你東部有賺啊所以我跟你說明,你這個報告你再去想一想你們台鐵跟高鐵你怎麼競爭,你競爭不過他欸你競爭不過他的話這個問題又來了,到時候你公司繼續會虧損,你們整個的戰略好不好"},{"start":1021.824,"end":1047.003,"text":"你可能要考慮一下請問現在進行詢答先宣告以下事項發言時間出席委員5分鐘列席委員4分鐘委員發言登記在11點30分截止各委員如果有提案請在11點前提出以便議事委員會診"},{"start":1049.029,"end":1071.955,"text":"現在暫定11點30分休息10分鐘,中午五點熱上不休息我們再處理臨時提案好不好?我想廖先生委員來了齁不是廖先生,那個林沛翔委員提案齁是不是提案我們先處理一個,因為提案只有一個很簡單沛翔委員說明一下好不好,提案說明不是委員要先宣讀先宣讀好先宣讀一下好了先宣讀"},{"start":1075.571,"end":1099.022,"text":"臨時提案一提案人委員林佩祥等﹖汽車運輸業管理規則第4條條文對於快線式路線僅能以公路客運行事經營路線變更票價調整短端載客等限制較大下造成區域路線難以與市區公車整合造成民眾使用上困擾"},{"start":1099.662,"end":1099.922,"text":"宣讀完畢"},{"start":1126.243,"end":1146.295,"text":"在位子上謝謝主席基本上我這個提案的目的就是為了說像在基隆跟桃園的國道路線其實這個跨縣市的國道路線他們是這個從基隆到台北跟桃園到台北雖然是不到50公里的短程公車短程國道公車路線但是事實上來講是讓我們很多業者是難以經營的"},{"start":1149.537,"end":1169.174,"text":"所以這個臨時提案的目的是希望說公務總局我們交通部這邊可以在法規上面做一定程度在運輸業管理規則上面做一定程度的微調讓說地方政府如果有需要如果法源依據可以讓地方政府也可以進來幫助我們的這個幫助我們的客運業者也讓我們的目前的通勤族"},{"start":1169.634,"end":1188.494,"text":"不管是基隆通勤族也好還是桃園通勤族也好可以讓他們的路線維持下去讓更多的人來去使用這個國道公車目前來講我們現在遇到的困境就是說第一個補助不足不過當然我們知道補助可能最近會有一些改善那第二個就是說地方政府如果想幫忙的時候他們也幫不上忙"},{"start":1189.174,"end":1218.321,"text":"這一點的話這條運輸管理規則臨時提案的改變就是基於這一點那如果這一點能夠改善的話我本席認為針對國道公車針對跨線跨線式國道公車的利用尤其是短程從基隆到臺北或從桃園到臺北的短程的利用會大幅度增加這實質上會幫助我們國一在早上7點到9點之間的用車狀況以上好我們提案一共兩個第二個提案這個先讀一下"},{"start":1220.775,"end":1229.274,"text":"先處理這個?先處理這個,因為市長已經有修正的意見那個寬延部分有沒有意見?"},{"start":1231.979,"end":1255.329,"text":"報告主席針對這個提案的這個方向原則上我們認同但是跟委員報告一下現在就是相鄰兩縣市就是部分的話都沒有問題那所以現在要處理的部分是針對這一個相鄰跨三縣市以上的部分那這個要修改規則所以我想說比較這一個就是說這一個針對林卓的部分是建議幾個文字做一個修正"},{"start":1256.169,"end":1257.269,"text":"同意嗎那我們就照"},{"start":1283.584,"end":1293.012,"text":"李佩祥的提案我們照修正意見通過,照修正意見通過,剩下你們去處理,那宣讀第二個案"},{"start":1301.913,"end":1319.373,"text":"臨時提案2提案人委員林佩祥等﹐台鐵公司化後﹐積極於盈利獲取﹐負掠長期漠視東部鐵路建設﹐此外一票籃球自問題仍未有效解決﹐在此諸多問題仍需台鐵競速嚴處"},{"start":1321.024,"end":1337.289,"text":"之餘．提出最為不相關之漲票價政策嚴重損壞東部民眾搭乘權益。原此,建請交通部及台鐵公司在花東鐵路電氣化及雙軌化,尚未完成且東部"},{"start":1338.109,"end":1350.75,"text":"一票難求之情況仍無效解決之前決議動漲台鐵東部列線之票價避免帶給東部民眾及外縣市觀光客之衝擊宣讀完畢"},{"start":1355.05,"end":1377.211,"text":"董事長有沒有意見請說明一下報告主席跟各位委員這個提案是剛剛才拿到不過這裡面有講其實我們的票價已經有29年沒有調這個情形之下"},{"start":1378.272,"end":1407.097,"text":"我們其實在這麼多年以來我們的服務跟我們的運能都有提升這個要先說明一下那針對這個臨時提案我們是建議在倒數第二行就是倒數第二行改成及東部鐵路運能提升之前及東部鐵路運能提升之前延逸動漲台鐵東部列線之票價"},{"start":1414.472,"end":1423.787,"text":"動能提升之前運能你運能什麼時候提升啊?我們一直都有在提升"},{"start":1425.361,"end":1452.394,"text":"我們近期還會繼續的有提升因為有逐漸的 報告召委現在應該是有逐漸的提升因為EMU3000的這樣的一個車都到達了他的車型載運量也更大所以這個一票籃球希望台鐵能夠逐漸的加以改善我看就照這個台鐵的修改動力來做處理"},{"start":1453.496,"end":1472.529,"text":"好,那個建民委員提案人建民謝謝召委其實這個提案主要是因為我們在整個東部的運輸產產還沒有提升之前我們其實建議要動長這次的這個調整你運人"},{"start":1478.7,"end":1502.578,"text":"你剛才再講一次運能提升之前電氣化跟雙國化都還沒有完成之前那整個運能還沒辦法提升嗎 董事長是 我跟委員報告 不好意思那個 因為這個我們票價的這個調整是29年沒有動那我們在近期 尤其在近期其實我們東部的運能已經有提升有提升將近30%"},{"start":1504.799,"end":1520.277,"text":"是已經有做改善所以我們在這邊也懇請齁能夠把這個因素也考量進去齁那這個我們會繼續來做努力啦齁那這有說明一下跟委員報告一下齁"},{"start":1521.417,"end":1538.313,"text":"目前剛剛委員所關心的這個雙軌化等等這些事情確實對我們整個東部的班次的提升是最有效的這個幫助但是在目前的狀況來講的話現在它舊有的這個車輛已經用逐步用新的這個車輛比如說"},{"start":1540.975,"end":1542.296,"text":"這件事情是需要逐步改善"},{"start":1558.18,"end":1582.306,"text":"但是對於剛剛委員所建議的說這個雙軌化這個這些事情我是那部分還要很長的時間是不是能夠照我們台鐵公司的建議我們還是在運能運能是在走但是是不是能達到滿意那是一回事但是我建議就是倒數第二行這個決議這兩個字我們的言議就改一個決議改成言議"},{"start":1583.486,"end":1612.327,"text":"演繹這個動盪的這個票價我們建議是不是做以上的這樣的修正李坤澤召委發言謝謝陳雪生召委那當然黃建斌委員針對花東台鐵的運量以及地方居民的權益提出這樣的一個提案其實我們都是給予尊重那對於相關提升運能這樣的一個建議其實我們也都全力的支持"},{"start":1613.107,"end":1620.752,"text":"當然最主要是ENU的這個3000型我們是要買600輛其實現在已經進來564輛以上了那其實就是說新車進來其實運量都會有提升啦"},{"start":1628.956,"end":1646.514,"text":"他的座位比較多那其實這是一個整體的問題我在這邊是比較具體的建議第一個就按照台鐵相關的這些文字的修正那第二其實針對花東的這些我想對觀光客的這些旅遊的補助不管是"},{"start":1647.635,"end":1671.679,"text":"團客或是住宿的這些補貼交通部應該研擬更具體的這樣的一個方案不只是花蕾尤其是台東其實都是花東都是一個區域旅遊品牌他們的套裝旅遊路線比較連動成為一體那這個台東的部分也建議這個交通部針對觀光的旅遊的這樣的一個補助"},{"start":1672.38,"end":1679.502,"text":"也能夠來更進一步的來提升來吸引更多的觀光客到花東旅遊以上"},{"start":1686.652,"end":1703.628,"text":"因為鐵路對東部的不可取代性等於也是說我們整個東部唯一能夠連結北部跟南部唯一的方式就是做鐵路嘛那我當然相信董事長你們整個營運上有一切的考量那你的決議啦你要改成演繹要演繹是要多久的時間"},{"start":1706.438,"end":1719.707,"text":"跟委員報告,這個原意我們上次部長在10月1號已經有講這是我們會在今年下半年來做討論下半年來討論好,如果政府願意發言"},{"start":1722.682,"end":1746.988,"text":"我想董事長這裡因為建斌提出這個案當然就是不為了現在花東地區確確實實在現在在現在地震過後裡面我們政府觀光署都一直在提倡觀光那你現在在規劃要把它漲票價這個時機好嗎"},{"start":1750.871,"end":1772.547,"text":"所以應該他提出這個理由應該可以去通通就是我們交通部哪有一面在促進觀光一面在漲票價這個東西在一個花東人跟台灣人民的想法確確實實是不同"},{"start":1773.951,"end":1799.333,"text":"確確實實是不同有沒有可能就是這個專案有沒有可能你就跟我們黃委員承諾如果我票價再調整這個當中應該是兩年或三年這個部分我要調整但是因為他是災區所以我這兩年三年維持票價的原定一你也是響應"},{"start":1802.495,"end":1828.546,"text":"花東地區的災情的問題那第二你們要調價的這些東西也是眼前在這兩年或三年我不會調但是我公式算出來我本來幾例本來是300塊我現在要漲380但是我現在占不漲為什麼我的理由就是因為花東地區是屬於災期有沒有可能"},{"start":1830.416,"end":1855.207,"text":"這個董事長這裡或者我們市長這裡啊去做出這些承諾對於一鼓勵花東地區的那個那個體會他們二覺得我票價調整我是調整那現在我是這個才是真正動長我動長的理由合情合理以後人家不會講話所以我建議這裡是不是董事長"},{"start":1856.147,"end":1884.279,"text":"杜董這裡可以思考這個邏輯市長也可以思考這個邏輯政府都在幫助他們怎麼會現在災期的時候你又要把他一視同仁的通通漲價這個有一點在情理講不過去依法有忌情理說不過去這點我是建議這個部分是不是市長跟董事長要做適當的回覆好 總統部"},{"start":1885.56,"end":1903.77,"text":"好我剛剛聽到委員剛剛的大家的想法我在這邊做一個建議就是在現在委員所提案的文字裡頭做最小的修正這個因為1234在倒數第4行我順著文字念一遍"},{"start":1905.256,"end":1933.938,"text":"原始建議交通部及台鐵公司在花東鐵路電氣化及雙軌化尚未完成且東部一票難求之情況仍無效解決之前原來文字是決議動長台鐵這後面一直到最後我建議是說決議案兩個字刪掉其他的就維持委員提案委員提案的文字"},{"start":1938.936,"end":1953.249,"text":"把決議刪掉,刪掉都不刪掉,有什麼差別?這個決議在這邊看起來是多餘的,因為我剛剛念到從倒數第四行後面下來,我們都會站。不是啊,你就是同意他動長嘛。"},{"start":1955.439,"end":1959.941,"text":"我會參照委員的意見在未來台鐵公司研擬這個方案的時候把委員的意見考慮進來"},{"start":1988.799,"end":2017.215,"text":"現在市長跟董事長不宜去,因為發動是災區啊你現在不是雪上加霜嗎?是不是?建情兩個字也劃掉好不好?原詞建情建情要不要劃掉?要不要刪掉?要建情嗎?建情要保留?要問他們?建情問委員的意見不過你們不要去長了啦,真的"},{"start":2018.521,"end":2022.053,"text":"這時候再漲有沒有雪上加霜尤其偏鄉離島"},{"start":2025.362,"end":2051.372,"text":"這個報告召委當然我們對花東的這些交通以及民眾在深受地震衝擊之後生活的狀況我們都應該要給最溫暖最有力量的支持那其實票價的動漲是全國性一致的這樣的一個標準那其實我們可以想更多的具體的方案例如說因為現在到底"},{"start":2052.572,"end":2068.773,"text":"長不長價還不知道或是要漲多少也都不清楚那相關的我們應該是兩個這樣的一個方案來給予協助第一個方案就是如果這個票價的調整我們可以針對花東"},{"start":2070.755,"end":2089.904,"text":"深受地震衝擊的這些地方的民眾我們應該給予專案的補助這些交通的補助就是說相關的這些鐵路的運輸我們的這些票價能夠給予補貼因為受到地震的這個衝擊這個是可以來做考慮的"},{"start":2092.785,"end":2110.729,"text":"第二個就是我剛才說的就是說像花東的旅遊不管是團費或者是這種個人旅客的這樣的一個住宿或者是交通我們相關的補助可以來給優惠這個部分也可以來做一個思考"},{"start":2111.65,"end":2127.928,"text":"這都是同樣的雖然說在票價的這個給台鐵一個比較大的空間之外但是我們也可以兼顧花東地區民眾的交通權益以及對花東民眾交通的這樣的一個權利的"},{"start":2128.929,"end":2155.703,"text":"這樣的一個照顧這個請黃委員來做思考第一個我再重申一遍就針對花東的相關台鐵的這些如果說有漲價與否我們來討論是否給予專案的這樣的一個補助其實也達到同樣的效果第二就是說我們針對觀光旅遊團費以及散客的這個補助來優惠來更於提高"},{"start":2156.403,"end":2162.57,"text":"那我想花東的民眾對黃建斌委員的努力一定會非常的一個肯定以上"},{"start":2165.061,"end":2192.553,"text":"現在金平委員他前面還是有敬請當然我們立法院對行政院立法院對行政院我們沒有行政權我們只能給他建議我們只能建議當然剛才所述前述的理由都已經很詳細的說明了花東現在是災區你在這個時候你不做動長的決定你可以講多久時間或是幹什麼因為你來個建請有沒有你們彈性很大"},{"start":2193.813,"end":2220.008,"text":"你可做可不做雖然我們胡市長講說動長我們只是建議你這樣你可動長可不動長是不是所以我覺得你這裡面應該有更清楚的表示這樣對我們黃建民委員提出來的比較公平好不好市長你看這裡面動長這裡面怎麼樣你再加個文字上來"},{"start":2221.597,"end":2228.62,"text":"一年以後再討論漲價的事情還是怎麼樣?能不能文字上修正一下?我們進行的話對你們還是沒有約束的力量"},{"start":2242.594,"end":2270.96,"text":"我還是建議這個案子就是決議兩個字我覺得是多的啦我們整個方向是這樣子好的這個沒關係啦對剛剛林委員講林委員講那個部分重點是我們這個票價的機制怎麼去運作我們把它建議出來但是對於像林委員剛剛談的針對災區或者其他的特別的專案我們在那種情況改善之前我們去動長這個部分我覺得可以去考慮對我是建議朝這個方向來"},{"start":2271.3,"end":2294.282,"text":"你這樣嘛,你災區還沒復原以前嘛,暫行動長嘛應該這樣會比較好,立場比較好為什麼高雄要漲,阿我不漲,阿但是他的理由是因為暫期所以市長我覺得說...麥克風?你在災區,災區還沒復原以前嘛"},{"start":2295.685,"end":2313.7,"text":"市長跟董事長因為主席講這個是對的把災區放下去把災區放下去人家才知道阿你們通盤整個票價的規劃你們去進行但是因為他災區還沒有恢復以前阿他是動長的或許你寫動長暫定一年期是災區這個重建復原以後"},{"start":2323.444,"end":2324.985,"text":"再行考慮調漲的事情倒數第二行"},{"start":2341.503,"end":2365.029,"text":"這文字是且東部原來的文字是一票難求等等如果這件事情可以可以接受因為他們現在已經在改善了反而是剛剛林委員所提到的這個災區完成復原之前動漲對可以嗎可以好不好這災區完全復原以前且東部災區完成復原前動漲台鐵這個列車準票價對在災區"},{"start":2376.584,"end":2397.072,"text":"在東部災區在東部災區完全復原以前動長台鐵東部列車完全復原以前嘛動長嘛市長再唸一次在東區在東部災區完全復原以前在東部災區且東部"},{"start":2401.562,"end":2403.083,"text":"災區完全復原之前動漲台鐵東部"},{"start":2419.045,"end":2432.463,"text":"謝謝主席今天會提這個提案最主要也是要強調整個東部的交通的弱勢我們就只有仰賴鐵路在很多問題都沒有解決之前你這樣子的調漲票價對東部人是很不公平的"},{"start":2436.428,"end":2458.275,"text":"那當然我們都還沒有提到災區的問題這個都還沒有提到就光是現有的狀況就是這樣子了所以本席會提這個案子主要要強調這件事情那不過想想今天大家委員也是很很關心整個東部的發展特別是在災區這一塊我就尊重主席這邊的意思尊重主席好尊重齁好好邱平委員謝謝你了齁"},{"start":2460.595,"end":2487.114,"text":"不過將來他條長還是會跟你商量一下吧,該漲就漲了,那個董事長好不好尊重一下區域的委員他還沒提到災區的事情他現況就是這樣子了好,臨時提案已經處理完畢了如果有委員對上述提案補簽或是列入記錄的並刊登公報"},{"start":2489.69,"end":2506.664,"text":"那現在請登記第一位廖宣祥委員發言謝謝主席麻煩邀請我們次長我們董事長董事長請"},{"start":2517.251,"end":2531.216,"text":"先跟次長還有董事長報告一下其實我的選區有10多個火車站所以說我特別關心台鐵的議題那其實如果以上班族來講以通勤上班族來講在合理的票價之下"},{"start":2531.816,"end":2560.549,"text":"那上班族更在乎的應該是我們搭乘的一個體驗那體驗包括我們的準點率以及我們的班次我們符合需求這兩個相對於都會區來講是更為重要的那在準點率的方面那我們看台鐵的報告因為長期以來大家都是比較有負面的印象這應該不用去否認那在去年的時候準點率到了我們的報告是到96%嗎那我先確認一下我們的準點率的定義是如何定義的以及這幾年有沒有做過調整"},{"start":2564.199,"end":2580.702,"text":"跟委員報告我們準點率的定義就是列車晚分到終點站晚分超過5分鐘那就是這個列車就是算是所以是以終點站來當標準嗎那5分這個東西有沒有調整過有一段時間沒有調整過一段時間很多年國際標準大概從幾年明明過幾年"},{"start":2590.492,"end":2609.161,"text":"有印象嗎?沒有,這個我要查一下好,沒關係,這只是5分鐘那我們的標準就是到最後一站的5分鐘那也就是說如果說到中間的許多因為我們的列車都非常,有些還蠻長的嘛那中間的這個誤點每一站都誤點到了最後一站"},{"start":2610.902,"end":2636.409,"text":"開到五分鐘內就不算誤點了那這樣子的一個標準好像就是跟民眾實際上的感受會有很大的落差也就是說我們台鐵公司雖然說我們的準點率到了96%但這個96%是到了最後一站最後一站可能是最後我們那個加速ㄍㄧㄥ一下還怎麼樣子的大家催一下油門後面這個過了都會區這個大家說點時間但是可能在我們在比較需要密集的"},{"start":2638.129,"end":2663.156,"text":"都會區大家搭乘最多的地方你可能還是有一些顧點的情況那也就是說可能還會產生我們民眾的感受跟我們台鐵產生出來的一個數據那可能有一些落差那我們期待說我們後來可能在準點率上面的要求我們期待不要只有要求到這個終點站了而是各站之間應該都要有一個明確的一個規範當標準"},{"start":2665.397,"end":2691.898,"text":"這點可以嗎?或許可以在統計上面把各站的部分也都納進去嗎?是 各位委員報告其實我們鐵路行車我們是很嚴謹的一個規定如果說前面晚了5分鐘說在最後一個站把他趕5分鐘回來這是不太可能的但是剛剛委員提及以前斷後斷對不對我是真的講一個站啦是指過了密集區嘛人數比較少一開門就馬上關門之類的啦那我們"},{"start":2696.763,"end":2711.143,"text":"所以跟委員報告這個部分我們會特別注意我們在沿途各站每一列車他的一個準點的管控我們會來注意後續可以把相關物點的統計資料把各站員都拉進去嗎"},{"start":2714.11,"end":2730.72,"text":"這可能才會比較切身的符合民眾對我們台鐵霧點有沒有改善的感受這我們來研議好不好你要說服民眾那就是我們自己的數據要能夠取信於眾那第二點就是我們的班次密集度"},{"start":2731.32,"end":2745.981,"text":"那我想很多我們台灣同胞台灣的人民都有到日本去做一些大宗運輸那其實日本的大宗運輸跟我們台灣一樣跟台鐵一樣他都有不同的一個列車嘛"},{"start":2746.863,"end":2761.4,"text":"對 不同的速度那不同的一個停靠站那但是為什麼日本的包括JR等等的路線他的班次密集度都是比我們台鐵還高很多那我們台鐵針對班次密集度上面的一個改善這集你們有什麼具體的作為"},{"start":2762.881,"end":2782.277,"text":"各委員報告其實日本的鐵路它的軌道也有比我們低的也有比我們高的那主要的條件還是在於說行車控制跟耗資系統是那我們這幾年有沒有做一些具體的改善措施有有有我們也有在做這一方面的優化有"},{"start":2782.557,"end":2808.436,"text":"那剛剛講的這個可能耗資的改善等等的措施那我們有沒有訂定一個明確的期程我們民國幾年的時候我們耗資的改善措施完成之後我們台鐵的一個班次可以明顯的一個提升我們的目標這個就是有跟委員報告我們對於整個準點率在每一年我們的KPI都會把這個對這個是準點率我是講的是班次"},{"start":2809.892,"end":2829.629,"text":"班次的部分班次的一個密度是嗎是班次的密度這個要看我們剛剛報告的我們對於耗資跟我們整個行控系統的改善對目前有在改善了嘛對不對有嗎有有那永總是有一個目標嘛有一個目標年是那這個目標年大概是民國幾年"},{"start":2833.207,"end":2860.492,"text":"這個有關於班次的改善這個要看我們實際耗資系統的一個進度我們總是有一個目標嘛這個目標你應該不會講不出來吧你說5年10年還是15年總是有一個目標年嘛是是是 這個還是要看那個耗資系統的進度我再跟委員報告好嗎好 後續再提供我們委員會資料好不好好 謝謝董事長 謝謝市長 謝謝趙偉好 謝謝廖宣祥委員"},{"start":2861.897,"end":2889.71,"text":"下一位請林國成委員發言主席請我們胡次長還有杜董事長好來"},{"start":2891.284,"end":2909.23,"text":"來胡次長來杜董我想在整個官方的台鐵轉為民營其目的是什麼?次長阿加杜董一個人二十秒為什麼台鐵轉為民營?我們希望台鐵的經營"},{"start":2920.1,"end":2943.393,"text":"台鐵的經營能夠有效﹖能夠永續經營﹖同時達到安全便利的目標好來董事長是就是剛剛市長有講我們大概有四個目標確保安全提升服務永續經營跟我們公司本身要成為一個幸福企業好"},{"start":2944.95,"end":2972.882,"text":"當然因為兩位阿這種理想化當然本席也認為OK啦但是我今天要跟你探討的第一來董事長你看一下齁來第一個改為民營阿福利沒有增加薪水比別人低人才流失阿這個部分來董事長二月份招考"},{"start":2974.175,"end":2980.97,"text":"跟 爭取為什麼 招考不足董事長"},{"start":2982.958,"end":3007.92,"text":"這個委員報告招考不足因素有幾個最主要因素是我們在這一次我們從業人員的招考我們是分區域的那我們也發現在東區是這種情形比較顯著就是在東區我們招考的這個情形是比較不理想一點好"},{"start":3009.141,"end":3015.246,"text":"董事長其實我坦白講次長所講的不管你們民營機構他跟這個競爭力啊當然"},{"start":3022.796,"end":3043.689,"text":"在我的認為 台鐵完全屬於政府首屬但是現在轉為民營在各種的活潑性 競爭力以及行政法人當中在這個部分當然有很多舉例 招標 管理 經營是較為彈性的"},{"start":3046.511,"end":3071.205,"text":"所以不要一開始啊就這些福利也沒有增加薪水也比別人低人才都招不進來這代表什麼就代表你們在規劃的過程當中是沒有吸引力的沒有吸引力的所以國家的台鐵轉為國家的民營企業"},{"start":3073.269,"end":3083.735,"text":"這是給你們很大空間所以當然轉為民營就要有企業精神就要有創新的做法這不是這樣嗎 董事長"},{"start":3085.393,"end":3109.469,"text":"所以不料死板板的連一開始現在事業力這麼高怎麼會招不到人呢那招出來的人請問一下你們要去寫寫人家日本交通事業的這個鐵道管理他也是國營但是他是民營經營的精神"},{"start":3111.124,"end":3128.414,"text":"你知道喔你知道他們的員工一進來規定158以上或160那是亭亭毅力的阿你是車長列車長你應該要怎麼樣的禮數就像百貨公司的禮數一看到人"},{"start":3129.375,"end":3148.821,"text":"看到人他是90度急攻的同樣一件事情會讓人家感覺是不一樣的感覺這才是轉為民營最主要的原因不是嗎所以董事長這個部分我要拜託你要加強來第二個你們現在就要漲票價"},{"start":3150.962,"end":3177.136,"text":"可是你這種你這種漲票價跟老百姓的感覺確確實實是有所差跡的所以我還是要建議董事長你這裡特別也要加強一下來最後來接下一張來董事長你到你到屏東潮州副站長喔親自跟你陳情來陳情什麼道歷"},{"start":3180.542,"end":3201.841,"text":"就是有關於這位副總統跟我澄清的是有關於一些戰務的設施還有我們對員工的一個照顧還有對旅客的一個規定的一個要求好那個董事長因為我時間也到但是我坦白跟你講員工內部訴訟管道是不暢通的"},{"start":3203.288,"end":3232.617,"text":"不要轉為民營的然後還是官僚氣息所有員工不是只有副站長副站長都可以跟你申訴可想而知其他的員工會變成怎麼樣所以這一點你不要被蒙在鼓裡這一點我要拜託我們董事長特別要去注意來請問一下董事長你們副總經理有多少我們現在有五位五位喔我告訴你喔"},{"start":3233.732,"end":3247.541,"text":"我告訴你你做的決定任何一個副總經理就可以推翻你他認為我副總就是決定董事長總經理講的都沒有用董事長"},{"start":3249.966,"end":3271.741,"text":"票價以前人民所有的乘客就是你們的資產所有你們應該要怎麼做拜託你們互中經理背負重感各自起死那我們尊重但是董事長跟總經理所講的話他可以推翻喔這是"},{"start":3272.381,"end":3296.792,"text":"因為時間的關係我只是提供給董事長你未來要代表政府經營民營跟人家交通事業來對決來拼生意不是像你們現在的做法所以董事長票價要漲要善失先做給人家看再來漲票價啦"},{"start":3297.532,"end":3297.712,"text":"國長來坐一下"},{"start":3327.416,"end":3348.047,"text":"下一位請李坤德委員反應謝謝召委請林國成召委請杜威董事長還有胡祥林次長好來次長還有我們董事長"},{"start":3354.412,"end":3378.192,"text":"市長好 董事長好關於台鐵票價的一個調整當然是社會已經討論很久的一個議題那其實我認為台鐵的票價的調整與否的確有它討論的一個空間但是目前台鐵所提出調漲的這個理由都太單薄了"},{"start":3379.318,"end":3404.985,"text":"就是說因為29年沒有調整或是經營的成本等等這個我們對於調整要人民多交一塊錢都要以最嚴謹的態度來做一個說明就算了只調整一塊錢這都是很嚴肅的事情對於台鐵我認為在討論調整這個票價與否之前你必須要清楚跟民眾說明"},{"start":3406.525,"end":3420.549,"text":"我們的安全我們的服務我們的準點要做到什麼程度預計要做到什麼程度當然這幾年我們對於相關的服務我們花了很多的錢買新車"},{"start":3422.29,"end":3439.963,"text":"我們大概花了將近1000億買ENU900型跟ENU3000型那車輛其實都幾乎都已經要到了啦ENU900大概520輛都已經到了都到了那ENU3000預計來600輛也564輛也已經到了嗎對今年8月會到今年8月都會到就會到期嘛"},{"start":3448.169,"end":3468.621,"text":"你買行車 我們也花很多的錢去改善安全我們的六點行車安全改善計畫我們的智慧的 電路智慧化的提升計畫以及我們的小半徑彎曲的改善計畫以及我們的軌道結構安全的改善計畫加起來都超過800億耶"},{"start":3470.543,"end":3480.535,"text":"但是我們對安全我們要給我們的旅客怎樣的一個標準我們來看我們的安全我們以2024年1到3月來看我們的陣線出軌還有一件"},{"start":3486.65,"end":3486.99,"text":"杜董事長"},{"start":3509.449,"end":3535.927,"text":"我們來看我們相關的這些邊坡落實的告警這個當初我的建議也謝謝台鐵有逐步的在落實這一次的地震也有部分發揮它應該有的功能這個都要趕快的去做好在明年中之前相關的落實告警明年中之前還有38處要完成是不是來能不能完成可以在明年6月都會完成好另外"},{"start":3536.927,"end":3549.358,"text":"雲南會2024年的零度運輸安全改善建立評估報告我們台鐵的改善的這個結案率只有67%還有3成以上都沒有完成"},{"start":3551.068,"end":3573.86,"text":"這個要去落實也要提升啊這個杜董事長你們都要去加強要做到安全才來跟民眾講調整票價的議題另外就是對於服務讓我們現在有很多行車要趕快的上線尤其是花東現在U3000上線他的座位比較多嘛"},{"start":3574.58,"end":3599.809,"text":"所以一位籃球的狀況會逐步的改善這個要趕快去加強相關的服務另外就是準點率了我們台鐵號稱我們準點率有上升2021年準點率是92.812023年準點率是95.98我們的準點率是不超過5分鐘嘛 是不是是日本是1分鐘日本的1分鐘也準點率跟我們差不多"},{"start":3601.175,"end":3614.507,"text":"我們是五分鐘的這個還要再更精準的去做提升但是實際上我們看到霧點的車次其實沒有明顯減少你認為說準點率有提升但是霧點車次"},{"start":3616.957,"end":3630.8,"text":"沒有明顯清楚就是說5點的時間反而明顯的增長你現在說你準點率有提升但是你的5點時間明顯增長你看2021年平均延誤時間是19分間19.6年那2023年平均延誤時間是提升到21.27年這個都要去改善而且2024年1到2月"},{"start":3642.683,"end":3656.566,"text":"總共有5萬3305個車次延誤1到5分有8699列延誤6到44分有2011列延誤45分以上有73列你說在延誤準點差是不可以說去票價另外我們這個台鐵相關的安全你看我們的這個列車誤點的因素的統計"},{"start":3673.001,"end":3682.588,"text":"天然災變、耗資故障、車輛故障、ATP故障、平交道、外屋入侵等等這些故障的類型就佔45%以上"},{"start":3685.489,"end":3710.818,"text":"董事長 台鐵要永續經營 安全必須要提升服務必須要提升 準點必須要提升我們才有資格跟人民說 這個需要漲價不能單單以說 啊 票價很久沒漲了我們要 這個 要調整或成本的問題我們要換另外一個角度 跟民眾說 我們安全要做到什麼程度"},{"start":3711.698,"end":3721.473,"text":"服務要做到什麼程度新車進來怎樣的增加幾個座位服務的狀況以及準點的這樣的要提升到怎樣的標準"},{"start":3722.469,"end":3736.673,"text":"我們在討論票價調整的時候必須安全服務準點必須要提出來跟民眾來做說明另外一個問題就是說好現在大家在討論啊現在企業說要企業啊北高企業就要跟台鐵差不多啊會不會反而對我們的運輸會有衝擊跟影響來說明一下"},{"start":3743.27,"end":3766.287,"text":"跟委員報告我們對整個研究會有一些細部的調整像剛剛講北高我們應該就會去研議看是不是用遞遠遞減的方式讓這個票價能夠更合理所以相關的這些研議我們現在還在進行現在說大家也在猜測"},{"start":3767.813,"end":3786.292,"text":"例如北高高台鐵的票價會漲到1144或者是到1219那原本現在目前是843嘛你要調整到1144或者是到1219那其實大家覺得搭高鐵就好啦因為高鐵票價是1490啊"},{"start":3789.132,"end":3804.228,"text":"這個會不會衝擊到這個這個真的要去好好的思考我還是認為說臺鐵要永續經營臺鐵的這樣的一個安全或是服務準點都要提升之外當然票價的調整"},{"start":3805.694,"end":3829.96,"text":"我想民眾是認為已經有討論的空間有討論的空間但是我們要討論票價調整必須要清楚跟民眾說安全會到達什麼程度我們要相關的事故會降低到多少以下或是我們的服務我們的新車我們的座位提升多少服務的品質提升多少我們的相關的"},{"start":3831.451,"end":3850.605,"text":"準點要提升到怎樣一個層次這個都必須要明確跟民眾來做說明是這個真的是一個很嚴肅的議題就算給民眾漲一塊錢都是很嚴肅的議題都要清楚的說明以上好 謝謝李坤澤委員好 現在請魯明哲委員發言"},{"start":3869.791,"end":3871.935,"text":"謝謝主席,有請胡次長、杜董事長。"},{"start":3879.202,"end":3898.988,"text":"這首先跟杜董這個 因為我內心現在在想一件事事實上在政府體制裡面在公司化雖然百分之百由政府持股但是已經給你最大的彈性希望你能夠有一些改變跟迎接這些挑戰當然這些的要迎接這個挑戰才剛開始才剛開始"},{"start":3901.149,"end":3919.489,"text":"但我要拜託一下剛剛很多委員問到了首先第一個因為過去我們大概承襲很多日本的制度首先我們現在人是在過去主要是年功制年功制論資排輩大概要搞到爺爺的時候大概才可以做到什麼站長什麼之類的"},{"start":3920.59,"end":3946.522,"text":"對不對其實他有他時代的背景而且長期為他企業付出我覺得是肯定可是如果跟你公私話這麼多年輕的兵力進來我們是期待怎麼因應這個新興的網路的時代民眾對於服務的一個要求他沒有辦法停在那個時代等你等你慢慢改變所以我也跟你反映過了我們看到很多的做到的站長"},{"start":3948.603,"end":3963.856,"text":"說真的跟民眾大概問他什麼事啊還有說要答不答的也許不是每一個啦愛理不理的上面交代的事情跟他沒有關係啊反正我凹到這邊我黏公字啊所以我覺得這個一定要改變因為很簡單嘛"},{"start":3965.077,"end":3991.767,"text":"我們當然跟年齡正相關經歷要正相關但是有時候我們有一些比較年輕的他能夠服務民眾更好對於近戰的民眾甚至在第一線售票的在車上服務跟民眾接觸的我覺得這個非常重要你要求這個票價調整拜託拜託啦那我看當時部長講說也是大概到了非調不可的這個情況如果是這樣"},{"start":3993.427,"end":4021.653,"text":"我要拜託一下你們觀念一定要改變過去你們主要用兩個思考來調票價第一個是什麼車種什麼車種比如說是志強號然後第二個呢是哪一站到哪一站就定一個票價出來哪怕是志強號從頭用爬的爬6小時過去到高雄好了我跟你講只是隨便打個比方台北站出發站暫停大暫停小暫停"},{"start":4022.913,"end":4035.996,"text":"爬5個小時爬到高雄不好意思843謝謝現在EMU3000進來了車的性能可調性科技化的一個管理你現在又公司化了"},{"start":4036.854,"end":4056.423,"text":"你現在未來應該越來越多跳島式的一個服務那來保證 譬如說假設台北到高雄高八二九接車是三個小時三個小時就到所以如果你票價這一次市長在這裡如果搞到現在最後調出來的票價以台北到高雄為例"},{"start":4057.483,"end":4069.769,"text":"趴五個小時的給他收843我是說決定暫暫停的車你根本不應該調啦就是大家覺得我經濟我沒有辦法負擔但是我願意用時間來換這種東西都不要去調你就這麼慢嘛"},{"start":4073.351,"end":4097.026,"text":"可是你節省時間了譬如說你能夠在4個小時以內的你要收什麼票價多150舉個例子如果我能夠報到兩個多小時的你收到你們現在報到的數300我是建議這兩件事啦你不要朝這個方向來做會對朝委員剛剛講的這個方向不要說哪一站到哪一站"},{"start":4098.347,"end":4119.838,"text":"五個小時跟兩個小時一樣是不行的那我現在希望你們專注本業那現在從這個年初我們特別看到其實台鐵公司這樣因為你們肩負著國家的任務很多的工作很多的一個盈利有時候也不能全怪你們但是我們真的期待期待你專注本業"},{"start":4120.678,"end":4148.284,"text":"因為你們不是一個普通的一個公司一個行業啦什麼從買車你們自己買鐵路自己建就沒有嘛幾千億的你都沒有自己做不算基本上有些部分折舊而已啦就不算你們成本政府來出合不合理當然要所以我要拜託你現在談的盈虧就是你帶領了你這麼多的一個戰事好了好不好你的員工什麼在政府提供這麼多資源之下在你管轄的範圍裡面你能夠"},{"start":4151.401,"end":4165.75,"text":"轉虧為盈但我當然看到啦因為我現在看到這個是一則以喜一則以憂啦我本來希望有些專業鐵道雜誌鐵道論述來談到我們台鐵公司化之後一個情況結果看到哇你們現在上報導"},{"start":4167.772,"end":4186.687,"text":"負筆是地產王啊報道包括買housing住展還有財訊談的都是你們土地的開發那我就想請教一下因為現在你們去年有一個專案先估一下處理這四塊地那我就不一念了包括台北兩塊100億的預估市價20億的這樣131億還有基隆光明街的35億然後"},{"start":4195.916,"end":4198.984,"text":"高雄次利率39億加起來200多億目前進度如何"},{"start":4203.787,"end":4229.74,"text":"跟委員報告臺北安東街的這一個案子今年會推出那塔城光明街也會那塔城街這個案子因為附近有住戶所以我們現在還在評估那你這個還是用上網招標的比價的方式嗎那會會還是一樣嗎那搞不好會飆很高了那我也看到你這個有承諾說大概"},{"start":4232.041,"end":4250.899,"text":"115年吧希望能夠打平嘛然後幾年之後能夠轉虧為盈如果在你現在目前規劃之下是每年平均要賣地多少億就是在土地資產儲分之下票統另外說了在你現在規劃轉虧為盈土地的處理大概要出來多少資金"},{"start":4252.561,"end":4269.637,"text":"各位委員報告剛剛委員講的我們沒有賣地我們只是把市場活化而已那收入大概多少要達到多少收入我們預估啦我們預估現金流大概115年的時候可以轉正"},{"start":4270.598,"end":4290.826,"text":"好 沒關係 因為那時候我們在等著看啦你就是收錄的一個結構嘛最後 等一分鐘啦因為現在我們主力啊 EMU3000 沉積列車上路大家都非常非常期待啦我也首先要給你們一個掌聲就是在外觀設計 這個車型 這個得到日本Good Design Award"},{"start":4292.486,"end":4314.474,"text":"這個這個獎項是不簡單的大概跟那個紅點有點非常那個等級蠻類似的所以這不簡單的這是你們自己設計還是日本他設計的這個是日本那邊的設計但是我們有全程參與好 看到這個我們真的因為在台灣能夠做到這樣的車我們是很感動很感謝感動到什麼地步呢每次上車啊"},{"start":4316.451,"end":4322.728,"text":"上到你們車上咧我看到很多人都下跪在那邊我幹什麼這麼感動嗎得到日本的獎喔原來"},{"start":4323.976,"end":4348.282,"text":"要擦個墊沒有跪下去找不到我的天啊大家在跪啊在你你我不知道為什麼會這樣的設計這麼低級啊這麼低級你知道嗎真的我我們那句話連兩個跪在跪在地下就找這個孔啊因為在藏在椅子的正下方我跟你講全世界唯一設計是這樣的到底為什麼會這樣設計"},{"start":4350.82,"end":4364.573,"text":"這個委員報告就是這個插孔因為它是手機或者是筆電要充電它都會有連線那我們在設計之初是怕這個連線在旅客出入座位的時候會有所妨礙"},{"start":4365.994,"end":4393.993,"text":"是那所以才把他設置在比較隱密但這個我們有在研議我跟你講現在很多公共運輸不管是飛機包括像有些高鐵他都有啦像這麼聰明的設計他有延長線可是怎麼插進去現在哪裡我跟你講下次辦一個比賽一個人坐一個位置最快的給他不過這個太低級了你上次跟我講說因為美學設計是不是專家跟你建議了"},{"start":4395.026,"end":4396.047,"text":"好 謝謝魯明哲委員的發言"},{"start":4425.922,"end":4445.899,"text":"下一位請徐富可委員發言謝謝主席有請我們的胡次長還有台鐵公司杜董事長還有觀光署周副署長周副署長"},{"start":4455.234,"end":4476.602,"text":"市長、董事長、副市長早安我想剛剛前幾位委員都在提到票價調整的部分本席我們也是台鐵的常客我們經常搭火車然後接高鐵到台北來開會以本席的看法是覺得說目前如果我們的北高的票價843塊一口氣調整到1144塊到1219塊"},{"start":4483.804,"end":4503.024,"text":"本席這邊也接到很多鄉親的陳情他們覺得他們寧可搭高鐵針對這個部分董事長有什麼看法這個價格我們還在研議中所以這個也不是我們現在研議中的一個最後的一個定案"},{"start":4504.578,"end":4519.174,"text":"這一點我們還是要提醒台鐵公司當然這個公司營運一定是要講求獲利正常但是這個競爭力也是非常非常的重要那另外我想提出一個看法就是說其實這個"},{"start":4520.495,"end":4520.795,"text":"本席"},{"start":4537.502,"end":4563.42,"text":"建議這個台鐵公司尤其是交通部在這個整個觀光發展的過程裡面不要忽略了除了台鐵公司之外他們跟我們一些有跟我們一些的旅遊業者做合作的套方案但是我覺得觀光署也應該要扮演一定的角色我們的長輩怎麼透過做火車的過程裡面到我們地方可以做怎麼樣一個旅遊的一個行程這部分"},{"start":4563.94,"end":4577.55,"text":"交通部是不是可以整合一下把交通部把觀光署跟台鐵相關的部隊能夠做包含我們的港務公司這邊怎麼樣做一個旅遊的規劃那觀光署有沒有什麼樣的一個看法"},{"start":4581.601,"end":4611.084,"text":"好謝謝謝謝委員的槌尋那我想我們對這個樂嶺的旅遊是非常的重視所以不管是在旅宿的一個選擇交通運具的一個搭乘或者是遊程那就是像這種長輩有些那無障礙的一個需求在我們的國家風景區裡面其實都有這種無障礙的這樣的一個設施那在交通運具或者是說這個旅宿的部分的話我們有一個這個專案就是一個樂嶺的一個黃金的一個專案那也鼓勵著旅行社去包裝這個行程不管從景點"},{"start":4615.247,"end":4632.601,"text":"本席的意思是我們關公署也應該要主動可以來跟台鐵甚至高鐵來做一個怎麼樣一個整合因為你們如果沒有去整合這些業者他們將本就利嘛他們一定是考慮到成本那你們關公署沒有出手的話怎麼樣去做一個整合"},{"start":4633.121,"end":4660.787,"text":"是報告委員吼那我們除了剛剛這個旅行社的一個整合之外吼那也跟呃台鐵公司這邊我們有合作推出這個台灣帕斯的一個套票所以也是鼓勵我們呃這個呃不管是國際的一個旅客或者是我們呃國內的一個呃這個旅客吼都可以利用這個台灣帕斯吼整合台灣好行還有這個呃捷運還有還有這個呃鐵鐵路然後把整的在一個同一個票券用這樣的方式去做旅行"},{"start":4660.967,"end":4688.629,"text":"好 這部分我們還是請關公署跟我們相關的呃 台鐵公司來做個整理因為次長我再請教一下我們4月8號有到屏東交通委員會考察嗎對 那當時我想我們有要求所謂一個鐵路的一個安全性的問題那其中最重要的部分就是所謂的一個鐵路高架化那尤其屏東還有好幾個車站的部分都還屬於一個平面那當然造成所謂一個交通事故那"},{"start":4689.429,"end":4702.186,"text":"我們之前也透過媒體有知道說台鐵要成立所謂的安全管理委員會甚至有一些相關的一些推動小組我們很擔心會不會跌窗駕屋"},{"start":4706.021,"end":4728.894,"text":"跟委員報告首先那個我們公司的安全管理委員會已經成立了那因為他必須要依據這個要點還有一些推動的模式需要經過董事會的一個決議那這些程序都已經完成所以我們可以在這個月開始讓安全管理委員會正常運作"},{"start":4729.96,"end":4751.707,"text":"好 那我們這個我們還是強烈要求這個交通部應該針對所有我們因為屏東這個高價化確實是一個很重要的一個減少交通事故很重要的一個事故的一個處理的一個工程那當然我們這個鐵道局這邊有所謂的一個規劃的期程但是我們覺得這個期程"},{"start":4752.307,"end":4778.038,"text":"真的要加快畢竟這個車禍事故頻傳百姓不安心那尤其又會造成淹水的問題那另外針對這個所謂的一個招考的問題因為本期這邊也接獲我們很多的鄉親我們是我們台鐵的同仁他們都在東部希望調動回來但是因為我們的招考一直很不順利那剛剛我們的前幾位的委員也有提到招考因為我們的薪資結構"},{"start":4779.298,"end":4803.067,"text":"還有所謂的我們並沒有針對所謂擁有鐵電焊高空機堆高機這些證照的加分的一個機制所以造成我們招考的一個情形不理想那這部分是不是有改善的空間有跟委員報告那這一次其實也不是不順利就是有達到預期可是在東部尤其是在東部的確我們從業人員這個報考沒有很踴躍有這種情形"},{"start":4807.108,"end":4819.794,"text":"那我們現在已經有針對這個情形我們再看在招募的這個程序中是不是還有哪些可以加分的有誘因的我們拉到我們下一次的考試來辦理"},{"start":4821.637,"end":4838.899,"text":"董事長人家如果有一些相關證照人家在業界那薪水都比你們3萬3還高人家怎麼可能會選擇到貴公司去服務我們基層就3萬3到4萬2了那我們有證照的我們可以讓他集結再調整一下是可以的"},{"start":4840.121,"end":4860.256,"text":"應該是我們再重新檢討一下我們考試一個制度,讓更多專業的同仁可以加入到我們台鐵公司的行列那對我們整個運輸也好、安全也好,應該更有更多的保障,謝謝好,謝謝徐副葵委員的發言下一位請,蔡吉山副院長"},{"start":4873.747,"end":4874.947,"text":"謝謝主席,請胡次長跟杜董事長兩位好"},{"start":4892.854,"end":4916.143,"text":"今天這個召委特別安排就台鐵的票價要上漲跟本席上次諮詢提過的那個準點率的事情來做的一個專案報告那本席的想法上其實上一次因為時間有限台鐵因為公司化但是我覺得台鐵現在要談漲價"},{"start":4918.38,"end":4946.159,"text":"他面臨在實務面上我當然知道嘛依照這個就算依照這個政府對票價訂定的辦法台鐵只要一次漲足那是相當驚人好那不要一次漲足啦就苦民所苦你不漲價就是政府一定要補貼嘛這個邏輯很簡單跟電一樣嘛最好大家都不要漲可是電不漲就是全民買政府買單就是全民買單那全民買單裡面就要叫"},{"start":4947.76,"end":4969.834,"text":"大戶用很多電的人還是要叫小老百姓要幫大戶來買單嘛因為反正全民買單嘛所以大戶用電多他用了人民的納稅錢就多嘛所以漲價的議題事實上很困難每個委員上來一定都說苦民說苦最好不要漲可是不要漲的背後大家都不知道是誰到底誰在付這個錢嘛"},{"start":4971.414,"end":4995.268,"text":"那漲價呢一定也要這個也跟台鐵的永續經營有關係嘛台鐵倒了還是全民買單所以這個是一個很兩難的議題啦站在人民代我作為民意代表的立場我當然要站在人民嘛但是站在也一樣站在人民的角度比較高層次來看待這個問題事實上他"},{"start":4998.51,"end":5024.963,"text":"他很務實因為你最終還是人民來買單只是沒有直接從人民的口袋拿間接從他的口袋拿好那要漲價所以漲價的題目很務實也該理性來討論但是站在民代的立場本席認為要漲價之前有兩個問題我認為台鐵一定要取得人民的的同意的至少說大家甘願一點一個叫安全一個叫服務"},{"start":5026.345,"end":5054.807,"text":"那安全跟服務沒有辦法抽象在這裡談什麼叫安全什麼叫服務我們應該有一些指標來談一個企業的安全跟服務特別是像交通事業安全就是信任沒有你對這個交通運輸事業不信任你是不可能去打他的那當然你台鐵沒有辦法因為你是獨站嘛我不能有第二家鐵路公司嘛所以我只能選擇你所以這時候安全就會變成我們更重要的職責"},{"start":5056.314,"end":5081.486,"text":"所以我也知道你們要成立那個叫做安全委員會辦法已經通過了但是好像還沒有成立這個跟委員報告齁因為有需要依循的要點跟一些相關規定要經過董事會那董事會在就是最近這一次已經過了所以我們這個月一定可以讓他開始來運作"},{"start":5082.927,"end":5098.478,"text":"那我要強調的意思是說我支持非常支持安全委員會的設立但是我希望這安全委員會他一定要有功效的安全委員會他不是一個三個月開一次會然後大家了備一個你要賦予這個安全委員會有實質怎麼來"},{"start":5101.48,"end":5118.725,"text":"作為台鐵公司在安全的問題上面的一個建議甚至適度的怎麼去監督或者怎麼可以讓他在安全的整個SOP的機制裡面他可以發揮角色我認為這個是你在設計這個安全委員會裡面很重要的"},{"start":5119.895,"end":5134.395,"text":"我說信任是一個很長期性的議題就安全才會有信任而信任又是長期性的問題它毀滅很快它一次一次事故或者什麼它就毀滅掉你長期建立所以要建立這個不容易"},{"start":5135.296,"end":5158.79,"text":"但你必須要花很你有很強烈的決心跟耐心來處理這個所以這個是本席對台鐵第一個期待就你的安全委員會盡早趕快成立這裡面的人員千萬不要都邀請一些了備一格大家只是來簽名報到的你要這些人要實質可以協助台鐵在安全的議題上面讓人民來感受"},{"start":5159.83,"end":5175.448,"text":"那第二個就服務嘛那服務當然啦民眾是乘客民眾客數高跟客數低我就知道你服務品質好跟不好嘛為什麼因為民眾有一個對比組啦什麼叫對比組高鐵就是你的對比組"},{"start":5176.448,"end":5196.825,"text":"現在民眾搭高鐵現在你看高鐵班班客滿連過去那個下午最沒有人的時間也一票難求啊立法委員也常常買不到票啊我們也都是一班一班的一直等啊所以你的對照組就是高鐵所以你的服務品質你沒有達到高鐵那個水準啊"},{"start":5197.594,"end":5224.454,"text":"我覺得民眾會馬上立刻不會有人太多去區別他認為這個都是背後都是政府那為什麼台鐵可以做得到高鐵你做不到或許台鐵公司的同仁會覺得我這樣的指責過於嚴苛因為基本營運條件不同成立的背景也不同董事長你背負的是一個很大的殼雖然這個殼已經把你改名字了從政府把你改成公司但殼還是那個殼"},{"start":5226.007,"end":5237.649,"text":"所以你怎麼快速的讓人家改變你覺得這個服務品質跟高鐵很接近差不多你以後要開始調漲價調任何的事情"},{"start":5238.885,"end":5260.295,"text":"民眾才會覺得舒服一點啦不然的話他就是透過我們立法院一直罵那剛剛大家提到今天包括主席安排這個準點率就是一個指標嘛這個就是很明顯譬如說他老是因為高鐵他封閉啦他的軌道都是封閉啦所以他要準點相對容易多嘛對不對這個我們都很清楚"},{"start":5261.246,"end":5288.726,"text":"但是民眾不會這樣覺得 都是軌道運輸啊你這台鐵喔 每次就是一定會遲到的這個刻板印象 非常強烈那我們的整體的同仁 董事長你怎麼帶領大家這個整體同仁的 從民眾去火車站開始的搭乘經驗我們每一個站務人員 他不在 他是服務業的啦他不是公務人員 他不是當官的啦"},{"start":5289.468,"end":5299.127,"text":"他是服務業所以他的笑容怎麼訓練他的服裝儀容怎麼親切該如何被表達出來這個都是"},{"start":5300.359,"end":5323.619,"text":"放在你身上的重責大任嘛服務是什麼除了那些我剛剛講像準點率這種明確的指標他從人民的感受是很直接的因為他會去高鐵站他也會去台鐵站那你怎麼讓台鐵站他的那個感受是很接近我就講永遠高鐵是你的對照組所以你們的面臨的挑戰是很大的"},{"start":5324.451,"end":5352.122,"text":"除了你的營運的挑戰你所有的這些周邊你沒有談沒有把服務品質提升讓人民感受好你沒有在安全上得到人民的信任你要談任何的漲價我說實在話主力都會很大所以本席今天沒有太多時間讓你回答因為時間都很有限所以我大概我就提供這個讓你們可以有一點這個參考那董事長那個挑戰才剛開始"},{"start":5353.496,"end":5375.706,"text":"不只這個嘛,因為你接下來你是公司嘛,所以本席也接下來會問你嘛,未來幾年我會問你啊,問你什麼問題,問你說你的營運目標,你的KPI在哪裡,你營收的比重,你的商品販售,你的票物收入,你的其他業外的,你怎麼去弄這個公司,這個都是你的挑戰嘛。"},{"start":5376.619,"end":5394.18,"text":"所以你可以得到交通部很大的協助但是台鐵本身在營運上面他未來所要面臨的東西其實是很大的那因為大家都在等新的部長包括票價的調漲看起來也要等新的部長上任之後來拍板"},{"start":5395.442,"end":5413.78,"text":"那次長應該要退休了所以今天我們來這裡我在這裡強烈質詢也沒什麼意義啦說實在話那我就祝福啦次長辛苦啦董事長你任重道遠新的部長怎麼給你支持這個支持我希望不是只是預算的挹注"},{"start":5414.781,"end":5437.875,"text":"他應該在經營讓台鐵的經營特別在服務安全跟創造更多的業績的可能上面你的工作跟觀光署是一致的那個周副署長有來你跟他是一致的為什麼因為觀光就是你你就是觀光你們兩個其實是一起的只是我們業務上把它分開來觀光人口多大家對台鐵"},{"start":5439.016,"end":5459.189,"text":"觀光署推鐵道旅遊,你的鐵道坐在這裡,大家去那邊也要試,他也失敗,你也失敗,所以這個是一體的時間已經到了,主席已經站很久了,不好意思,他體重那麼重站那麼久,不好意思謝謝主席,多給我一點時間,也謝謝兩位,謝謝"},{"start":5469.431,"end":5488.724,"text":"好,謝謝蔡經商副院長,下一位請林沛翔委員發言謝謝主席,有請次長次長杜董事長就不用了"},{"start":5495.236,"end":5508.451,"text":"市長你好本席其實有在國營企業體有在交通部手下的國營企業體在那邊上班上過5年所以我還蠻知道說國營企業體有關國營公司之後轉型之後的辛苦"},{"start":5509.292,"end":5526.04,"text":"那我本席不會在這邊預設立場說台鐵的漲價是沒有必要的也不會在這邊特地談但是本席想在這邊想談一下說另外一個國營公司交通部手下的國營公司最近又出一些狀況也就是桃園機場公司"},{"start":5527.481,"end":5546.53,"text":"5月4號的時候又出現了說天花板忽然墜落那個修繕人員在天花板忽然墜落下來在二航道的時候在5月4號下午2點然後把所有的工作人員跟旅客都嚇了一大跳的事情那我想請這邊請市長能不能跟我們解釋一下到底發生了什麼狀況"},{"start":5550.141,"end":5576.79,"text":"細節上我想我們可能我請相關單位再提供給你不過我所了解的部分這些事情就不管是你是國藝事業或者其他的都是不應該發生的這些事情那我看到的是有人員去從天花板上面這個不慎的這個這個掉下來雖然沒有造成什麼傷害不過再怎麼樣的這些處理我覺得都不應該發生事情特別在"},{"start":5578.291,"end":5603.784,"text":"國門的這個機場裡面我覺得這部分交通部會要求機場公司審訊來處理這件事情好 謝謝次長次長我知道這個修繕天花板是主要是修繕有關那個雨季來臨的下水道的狀況那其實我個人也清楚我上次在質詢的時候也直接質詢過部長在過去十幾年來每年都有出現說桃園機場淹水的狀況只要遇到好大雨那"},{"start":5604.224,"end":5616.863,"text":"在這邊我就想不禁想請問說請問交通部在今年因為今年的好雨季節還沒有到在今年的這個桃園機場的這個航廈在針對說漏水淹水的部分是不是已經準備好了"},{"start":5619.01,"end":5638.457,"text":"這部分在細節上我並不是很清楚但是很抱歉我要跟委員說明這部分是交通部或者說所屬機場公司必須要做的這些事情您問我準備好了沒有我相信這個應該有做一些準備工作是不是完善我覺得部分還要再經過檢討"},{"start":5639.577,"end":5654.771,"text":"這就是本席為什麼今天特地把這拿出來講因為我們知道說再過一兩個禮拜可能好大雨就會來了而且極端大雨來的時候針對我們的一航廈二航廈我們現在在做三航廈的工程就是因為一二航廈都相對老舊而且很容易漏水"},{"start":5655.692,"end":5677.649,"text":"本席也知道每年都出了這個狀況的時候所以我在這邊一定要利用會議時間特別提醒既然次長您剛剛講這是國家門戶這是國家的顏面那國家顏面再一次漏水的時候不能說新加坡張宜機場一天到晚漏水所以我們也可以漏水這個我想這樣的答案不只是本席不能接受全國的國民也不能接受的"},{"start":5678.129,"end":5703.691,"text":"好那第二個議題其實也是有關說我們今天最主要談到的議題是有關我們的鐵路漲價但鐵路漲價基本上來講對於臺北跟基隆本席是基隆地區選出來的立法委員對於臺北跟基隆之間雖然有影響但是影響程度或許目前還可以但是本席就很關心另外一個也就是有關這個我們的國道科運國道巴士的問題"},{"start":5705.692,"end":5719.156,"text":"請問一下我上次已經私底下問過交通部王部長說什麼時候運駕補貼可以上路那今天市長或公路局局長是否已經掌握到比較確切訊息讓本席的選民尤其是有關通勤組的"},{"start":5725.357,"end":5738.958,"text":"事實上不只是本席在基隆包括桃園地區也很關心運價補貼什麼時候能夠上路像說劉喜廷委員他的選區裡面就有兩條格瑪蘭的路線馬上要被關那這點我想說請我們的交通部解釋一下"},{"start":5743.352,"end":5758.249,"text":"整個運價的一個調整交通部在5月1日核定了所以核定之後的話我們在這一個整個運價因為已經就是這一個照這個我們的那個全聯會所提出來的這一個他們的一個公式也都"},{"start":5759.129,"end":5779.714,"text":"合定,那所以就是5月2日之後,我想合定之後的話,我們對於補貼的方案,包括就是說比如說這一個短程由TPS來處理,那這一個中長圖的部分的話,就是我們補貼三分之二,那這個部分在合定之後,我們都會就是說這個依照這個各客運業者的運量的部分會計算這個補貼還給業者"},{"start":5782.014,"end":5797.37,"text":"好大概本席想請教那個局長什麼時候我們實質上客運業者可以收到這方面的補貼大概什麼時間點這個只要就是因為已經核定了核定之後的話就是這個業者來跟我們申請的話我想我們就會合撥"},{"start":5798.373,"end":5816.821,"text":"好謝謝那請問一下在這個條款上面是不是有針對說這業者如果拿到補貼是不是能夠必須在於在主要是用在是說他們的再去再去多請一些司機或者對於司機的薪資的調漲上面是否有這樣的規定還是說只是讓就是補貼給客運業者隨便用"},{"start":5819.362,"end":5832.934,"text":"原則上就是說當然就是補貼的話包括就是說服務品質的提升薪資的一個就是說提升的一個要求這個我們會對客運業者我想補貼的時候我們也會對客運業者有所要求"},{"start":5833.274,"end":5851.845,"text":"好 謝謝次長跟局長的回答因為我會認為說現在目前我本席每天早上開車上班那只要是超過7點之後從基隆市大葉隧道一路可能到桃園這邊兩邊就會塞車一路到差不多重慶北路交流道兩邊7點開始每一個交流道"},{"start":5852.165,"end":5874.634,"text":"每一個出口都會塞車就算你走路間還是會塞車所以本席認為說現在我們看到的除非除了我們現在一天到晚在喊的捷運之外另外一方面國道客運巴士如果我們在這邊能夠增加班次那增加班次就跟我們有沒有司機有決定的關係所以在這邊本席希望說為了要讓國一從基隆到"},{"start":5875.034,"end":5876.795,"text":"沛昌維你等一下陳局長你回答一半"},{"start":5898.154,"end":5912.82,"text":"票價補貼啊票價上漲有沒有,調漲已經核定運價票價補貼有沒有我今天打電話王部長他已經批了批了你們收到沒有收到了那什麼時候要實施"},{"start":5913.88,"end":5941.746,"text":"就是票價補貼補貼一個是全部一個是三分之二一個是二分之一是不是是是是那你們現在是怎麼補貼法我們就是補貼就是三分之二就是TPS的部分的話因為他們的TPS的這個月票的費率並沒有調整所以TPS的使用者的話就是說全國的TPS使用者的話比如說金貝北桃一千兩百元那其實他就付一千兩百元那其他的有有有"},{"start":5943.366,"end":5959.734,"text":"你現在的票價民眾已經無法接受了你如果不做全額的預價調漲的部分不全額的補貼你調整三分之二也好,調整補助一半也好這個票還是沒人做啊"},{"start":5960.738,"end":5976.751,"text":"這些國道這些客運業者一樣規準啊一樣導電啊一樣導啊跟趙偉報告就是說其實已經補貼身分資了那現在就是說像這個短途的部分臺北桃園或是基隆臺北"},{"start":5977.532,"end":5978.152,"text":"你回答我 你們還會不會再檢討"},{"start":5998.819,"end":6025.132,"text":"我們檢討另外的還有一些獎勵的激勵機制包括就是說他的新路線或是運量的還有其他的還有其他的獎勵機制 謝謝好 謝謝林沛翔委員的質詢下一位請陳素月委員質詢我們等一下等林俊憲委員質詢完畢休息10分鐘"},{"start":6030.976,"end":6034.171,"text":"謝謝主席,請主席邀請胡次長還有杜董事長"},{"start":6041.914,"end":6063.611,"text":"陳委員您好次長還有董事長早安今天委員會是針對我們台鐵票價調整及列車準點率改善來進行詢問就台鐵票價調整的部分本席的看法是認為我們台鐵公司現在已經改制為台鐵公司了應該先就服務品質"},{"start":6066.914,"end":6092.197,"text":"跟運輸安全要來提升之後再來談這個票價的一個調整因為就像剛剛我們蔡奇昌副院長也有提到的你企業你也要讓這個民眾可以感恩接受你現在你的服務品質跟運輸安全讓民眾都有這個不良的一個印象那你來調整這個票價我覺得民眾沒有辦法接受"},{"start":6093.438,"end":6120.638,"text":"那我們來看最近以我的選區這個元寧火車站這個電梯這個電梯對民眾來說真的是很重要的一個設施設備可是我們看到他最近這樣兩個月就故障了好幾次在3月15的時候這個電梯故障這個旅客被困了50分鐘在4月18號就最近而已就最近"},{"start":6121.418,"end":6121.438,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":6136.272,"end":6151.067,"text":"所以我想這個部分我們應該就是就我們整個所有全國各車站的設施設備整個服務品質我們應該要好好的做一個檢討跟一個提升那就這方面我們次長有什麼看法"},{"start":6154.486,"end":6167.536,"text":"這部分我覺得在這種狀況下電梯設備的這種故障應該是平常保養就能夠馬上偶爾發生當然我覺得無法避免但是如果短時間之內連續的故障這是不應該的"},{"start":6168.175,"end":6194.933,"text":"對啊這保養很重要可是我們看到這個4月18號的這個故障是才剛保養完的隔天就故障所以我覺得這個到底有沒有落實這個保養這跟委員報告這個保養的紀錄我們都有去查了但是因為這個電梯是圓齡高架成立以後就開始使用也有十幾年了所以我們這一次4月18號以後我們就圓齡站這個電梯"},{"start":6196.634,"end":6213.849,"text":"我們已經把他整個控制系統都要換掉他比較成就那這個5月6號就今天我們就來進行已經在做那另外我們對於全公司全路的那個電梯跟電腐體我們另外會做一個檢討總檢討"},{"start":6215.689,"end":6242.924,"text":"是就是就本席剛剛現在所舉的這個元林車站的例子之外還有包括田中車站的這個電扶梯也一樣在這個去年的這個過年春節這個電扶梯的故障包括我們的電梯的招標施工也一直都很不順所以我們希望就是說就這些事項我們應該盡快的把它幫它完成提升我們的服務的品質是我們來努力對那另外就是有關這個準點率的問題"},{"start":6244.605,"end":6273.877,"text":"我們一般這個軌道運輸就是民眾認為是快速又安全的那你當這個沒有辦法準時的時候對民眾來說也是造成民怨我們印象最深的就是在2022年這個中秋節的時候這個火車大霧點這個又是發生在我的選區就是大春火車站往南就是南邊的這個中正西路的這一個平交道修了兩三天都沒有修好"},{"start":6274.657,"end":6294.996,"text":"然後造成這個就是不僅火車霧點也造成當地的這個交通大亂因為這個就是平交道的那個柵欄沒有辦法升旗阻礙了這個交通民眾的這個通行那時候就是故障的原因據說是有這個電流的干擾造成就是我們的"},{"start":6295.456,"end":6295.836,"text":"負責負責負責負責負貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼貼"},{"start":6325.055,"end":6354.251,"text":"這其實目前沒有那個情形那當然就是說我們也是要針對全台所有的耗資系統的一個不管是更新還是檢修我們應該都是要確實來落實因為你只要發生故障就是會影響到這個行車的安全跟這個準點率的一個問題那我們也看到就是說包括今年在這個宜蘭七堵道宜蘭的這個部分也發生了這個耗資故障"},{"start":6354.771,"end":6354.811,"text":"臺鐵公司"},{"start":6374.003,"end":6375.144,"text":"大委員這個數字我並不是很清楚"},{"start":6397.403,"end":6426.371,"text":"不是很清楚因為就本席所看到的數字就是說截至去年10月我們平均的日運量是58萬人次比疫情前是少了6萬那高鐵則是20萬人次成長了2萬所以就是說我這邊本席也是建議我們在考慮就是說要調整票價的時候我們要努力去改善提升我們的服務品質把我們的旅客找回來我想這個應該是當屋至極"},{"start":6426.991,"end":6446.024,"text":"是,跟委員報告因為其實這個我們公司也是非常重視那我們舉今年3月的這個例子今年3月我們平均每一天輸運的旅客量已經回到66.9萬的那比去年同期是成長15%點多這個我們還會繼續來努力啦好,謝謝好,謝謝,謝謝陳樹業委員發言"},{"start":6457.68,"end":6468.056,"text":"林俊憲委員發言謝主席本席邀請我們台鐵董事長"},{"start":6474.232,"end":6498.075,"text":"委員 董事長 給你看個照片 這個在我們台南 散化了小型營路的平橋道它這裡有一個線高嘛 它有一個線高的桿子 它可能因為掉了一根螺絲還是什麼的它現在變垂直垮下來了 那區長啊里長啊 很多市民都在反映了那我們台鐵去看啊 每次都回答說這樣不會有安全問題"},{"start":6499.417,"end":6525.102,"text":"到底會不會有安全問題跟委員報告這個小新銀路評價到我們獲悉以後我們已經馬上就做了加固改善不過按照改善之前那個區長反應的情形這個說他沒有安全疑慮是不恰當不恰當嘛不管你有沒有安全疑慮你把它弄平嘛就算安全看起來好像會垮下來每天經過下面提薪吊膽"},{"start":6526.058,"end":6531.281,"text":"是這個我們已經有發包了我們在5月中會開始把整個這樣子也要發包你公務段連這樣都沒辦法修有有有有辦法我們上面那個就是曲折的那一段5月中會開始把它擋掉"},{"start":6548.684,"end":6565.079,"text":"接下來我先要跟你講台鐵沙崙站的事情我們現在沙崙站他跟高鐵是歸人在台南的高鐵在歸人是共站那台南因為高鐵站距離市區非常遠所以基本上我們這沙崙線"},{"start":6566.52,"end":6588.92,"text":"現在搭乘人次啊,你就看那統計表啊,逐年增加了,現在很多人都會坐我們台鐵的砂輪站到台南市區,那最快,那20分鐘啦,比什麼快捷公車啦,比什麼巴士都還要快。尤其像今年台那個燈會啊,跟正名的砂輪線喔,確實很多人搭。那砂輪線你那個班次安排啊,我現在見到很多民眾有反應啊。"},{"start":6589.74,"end":6600.046,"text":"來 第一個你看一下喔 台南站的最後一班車啦 抵達台南 從台北下來啦 抵達 是晚上11點48啦那你沙崙站最後一班往市區啦 是11點36啦"},{"start":6601.772,"end":6626.974,"text":"也就是說最後一班的旅客到達台南那沒有砂輪站可以搭了那你來看一下新竹新竹最後一班車是11點半但新竹有一條台鐵的支線6加往新竹它是11點40才開你讓旅客才有時間轉接駁那台南砂輪站哪有這樣子設定最後一班車呢因為你砂輪站的只要客人都是高鐵下來的"},{"start":6627.952,"end":6632.017,"text":"所以高鐵的末班車晚上11點48你最後一班車怎麼可以11點36這個你要改一下"},{"start":6636.215,"end":6646.763,"text":"這個跟委員報告好 這個我們會來研議啦什麼研議啦 你去解釋 不然我問你 你最後半週載誰啊因為 因為跟委員報告沙崙縣跟那個 剛剛講的那個內灣縣有一點你先幫我解決困難啦好 我會來講好 再來沙崙縣還有一點 他跟新竹 我再來做比較啦"},{"start":6659.813,"end":6682.237,"text":"新竹跟台南這個支線我認為他們很相像平均等候時間都30分鐘但實際上不是因為台南沙崙站它那個間隔班次有好幾班有6班都40分到51分鐘也就是說那個車班次非常的稀疏那這一點我是認為相較起來這個應該也要改善"},{"start":6687.076,"end":6706.545,"text":"你懂我意思吧 你說一班車要等51分鐘那怎麼對 高鐵一個小時都兩班到台南了你會有那個一班要 其中有六個班次都至少要等40分鐘到51分鐘 這個我也希望你趕快改掉了雖然我們來看台鐵最新的車廂 EMU3000 就是你最新購買的車廂 對不對"},{"start":6714.817,"end":6718.562,"text":"台鐵最新的火車廂但是你裡面的無障礙廁所這個設計非常有問題"},{"start":6722.247,"end":6746.646,"text":"第一個,你現在設定的那個轉彎柱和迴轉空間,你這樣看得懂嗎?一般我們身上人是要進到廁所,這是門啦,他一定要走這裡進來,然後他必須要到這裡,因為他一定要垂直才進得來啦,這是必然嘛。那進來以後啊,那裡面空間夠不夠,這是個嚴重的問題啦。"},{"start":6748.737,"end":6771.679,"text":"你知道吧好我現在幫你套這個圖啦現在你設計的是直徑120就是半徑60啦你進來以後他就卡住了那機會不能動所以深圳人是說啊現在他們才很無奈說啊你現在設計這種新車廂的無障礙廁所只能給小孩子用啊就小孩子用那車子比較小嘛我現在調查給你看來"},{"start":6773.635,"end":6798.72,"text":"我還要幫你去做市場調查現在市面上最主要的這種電動輪椅它的半徑 會長半徑都是70 80 90它越來越大台因為它已經配備越來越好了你像這麼現在這裡都是市面上最多的電動輪椅完全進不去完全進不去那你為什麼只設計半徑60呢"},{"start":6800.936,"end":6811.38,"text":"因為你自己有個很奇怪的規定這個叫大眾運輸工具無障礙車設置辦法因為你裡面就設定近寬度不得小於120所以你現在車手設計就用最低標你知道這個標準嗎"},{"start":6817.113,"end":6844.507,"text":"董事長這個標準我並不太清楚可能要回去看一下就是道中運輸工具無障礙設施的設施辦法這個是交通部當時訂的規定因為道中運輸工具不是只有你這應該不是我們訂的對啦這交通部訂的那他給很多的因為有可能有台鐵有高鐵有捷運等等但你你現在不一樣你現在時代又在轉變"},{"start":6846.535,"end":6871.79,"text":"那這個部分我也會要求交通部應該要去想辦法把它改掉可是你去設計這個車廂內部的設置用途的時候你可能是依照這個啦所以你才會現在你的無障礙廁所回廠半徑就定在最低標準半徑只有60公分以現在的生產人士的那種電動輪椅根本沒有辦法使用這邊"},{"start":6875.715,"end":6876.415,"text":"謝謝林俊憲委員的發言"},{"start":6903.203,"end":6929.604,"text":"因為時間已經11點51了工作人員你們可以發便當我們最後一位請黃建豪委員發言完我們吃飯好不好吃飯休息15分鐘你們可以發便當啦好謝謝主席,那我們先請台鐵杜董好杜董請"},{"start":6938.1,"end":6957.846,"text":"董事長好今天我們針對的會議議題是針對台鐵票價上漲這個列車準點的提升作為談到台鐵票價要上漲我先講本席的立場我當然尊重專業啦該漲的你還是只能調28年沒調了嘛但是也要重要的是什麼時候調整台鐵有沒有時間表預計什麼時候"},{"start":6960.228,"end":6968.941,"text":"沒有部長有在交委會有說明就是這個案子要我們研議以後要到今年下半年才來討論"},{"start":6970.083,"end":6997.191,"text":"好謝謝董事長我就要這個回覆因為其實陳建仁院長當初有承認過本席520之前除了電價可能要漲之外當然現在漲了啦其他的相關的這個票價公共運輸等等不會暫時在520前不會漲那520新政府上來之後該漲了才來漲所以本席要確認一下因為今天這麼早討論我想說你們是不是520前會漲台鐵啦所以不會嗎不會好謝謝杜董那接下來進入主題"},{"start":6998.571,"end":7012.824,"text":"本席之前有在4月16號的時候來質詢的時候提到當初提到這個編撥維護管理的部分那你們在17號的時候回我們一個文其實我本席真的是非常的失望我覺得這是太草率敷衍了"},{"start":7013.624,"end":7040.666,"text":"為什麼因為台鐵現在也是公司化了公司化後大家期待的東西是效率是實事求是因為不是傳統的公部門了嘛你們是公司化了那為什麼我要說你們這個回應非常草率跟敷衍呢因為你們回覆我的內容在我們質詢前就已經知道了我就是已經知道說從太魯閣事件之後過了三年那你們到112年12月29號才完成草案那預計113年底才完成審議這件事情"},{"start":7042.607,"end":7065.378,"text":"這個流程在4月16號前本期就已經知道社會大眾已經知道那為什麼提出來質詢就是覺得說為什麼拖了這麼多年那有沒有要加速那結果你們回我這個東西是回一個我本來就知道的東西所以我們問的是董事長既然是台鐵已經公司化我想公司化最重要的目的是要能夠有效率的去回憶客戶的需求啊"},{"start":7066.363,"end":7092.217,"text":"如果今天客戶、今天這些消費者希望臺鐵公司我們今天代表消費者的立場我們今天部長、立委跟這個官方部門我們今天講的就是消費者跟公司的立場消費者覺得說臺鐵要漲價臺鐵是我們要依賴的、仰賴的運輸工具但是我希望這個交通工具能夠安全啊那所以結果你們編撥維護要113年底才能完成審議那有沒有機會提早啊董事長"},{"start":7094.522,"end":7111.636,"text":"委員指的這個是管理的規範嘛對這個不是我們公司訂的對這是我們要遵循的一個規範所以這是交通部的事情不是台鐵公司的事情對 我不知道是都省的業務"},{"start":7123.562,"end":7148.735,"text":"報告委員 這個案子是鐵道局完成的規範的出稿那因為我們已經報給部裡面那過去規範的審查跟頒布在部裡面是有一定的流程所以他一定會委託專業機構邀請相關的學者專家來逐條逐條的討論然後也請鐵路公司來表示意見之後換句話說 這個作業確實會花一點時間"},{"start":7152.057,"end":7176.613,"text":"那這個部分的話可能我們還要再有完整的資訊跟部裡面主辦的這個副省單位再跟所以你們還是要到113年底這幾年年底才能夠完成相關審議這個我們來設法跟部裡面協調因為這是我們報出去的那我想我們再來跟部裡面協調看看有沒有機會把這個副省的時間來做縮短好 謝謝那接下來我們繼續請教台鐵公司"},{"start":7178.34,"end":7195.787,"text":"換下一頁那其實這個部分我們希望說在113年底前要趕快完成好不好這個鐵道局的部分那再來這個區域運輸的票價當然要調整剛剛本席提過我的立場上我不會特別反對但是我們希望公式化之後營運能夠有彈性尤其是現在這個階段我想這個西部的"},{"start":7196.627,"end":7217.039,"text":"主要的幾個大城市的成績運輸我想剛剛前面很多委員也提過了要跟高鐵競爭以公司對公司的競爭來講我想每個公司都有自己的這個定位那麼期待說台鐵公司能夠調整作為這個短程的這個配合高鐵也好或是城市捷運的一部分也好董事長有沒有機會往這地方交代來規劃"},{"start":7219.02,"end":7242.521,"text":"這個有關區域運輸其實主要還是通勤同學以及我們短程的這個客人那這個部分我們在近期我們也會推出相對應的一個措施因為你現在還是有用比如說臺中後旅到屏東潮州這種區間車甚至台積農到嘉義的這種區間車但是我想這已經不是區間車了這已經是城際運輸了這樣子的未來這種區間車的調整會不會再調整"},{"start":7246.392,"end":7257.722,"text":"會會因為跟委員報告那個剛剛委員講的這種區段其實是比較屬於區間快車跟成績的範疇對那剛剛委員講的區域運輸應該是更範圍更小的對我們會來調整好董事長謝謝時間到了謝謝好謝謝黃建豪委員發言休息15分鐘吃飯"},{"start":7298.442,"end":7299.163,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7334.415,"end":7339.979,"text":"老大嗯誒你吃飯了嗎"},{"start":7357.236,"end":7362.801,"text":"工作人員林德福委員的便當"},{"start":7378.957,"end":7397.149,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7407.159,"end":7427.244,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":7447.957,"end":7447.977,"text":"韓國瑜"},{"start":7478.361,"end":7478.601,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7515.533,"end":7519.054,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7547.966,"end":7570.873,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7580.706,"end":7581.267,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7599.187,"end":7624.354,"text":"這是我以前公主的同編你當市長是不是當市長的時候啊多多提拔多多愛護"},{"start":7638.066,"end":7647.452,"text":"你現在是紙巾啊?紙巾喔?紙巾喔?紙巾喔?紙巾喔?"},{"start":7655.623,"end":7664.853,"text":"我自己也是這樣你自己喔?老弟現在在哪?你老弟?老弟在我辦公室啊?他本來總統的會議長會議長?會議長嘛齁他住澳門啊?我住澳門"},{"start":7678.371,"end":7678.771,"text":"市長市長市長市長"},{"start":7715.667,"end":7715.687,"text":"會議結束"},{"start":7743.012,"end":7744.433,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7760.503,"end":7777.414,"text":"現在在議會期間喔,台灣下面那些鐵票都沒了,現在都沒了,現在那些主要擔當都沒出現"},{"start":7785.137,"end":7788.218,"text":"市長你老公嗎?我老公阿,謝謝市長你親戚親戚在典禮都要過啦"},{"start":7816.322,"end":7818.084,"text":"委員會主席王國材"},{"start":7857.503,"end":7858.904,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7876.778,"end":7878.999,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7914.351,"end":7915.032,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":7949.404,"end":7949.967,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7997.3,"end":8008.284,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8040.742,"end":8059.582,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8116.207,"end":8116.988,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8127.073,"end":8127.874,"text":"委員會主席響鐘"},{"start":8158.097,"end":8184.735,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":8194.701,"end":8195.879,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":8215.887,"end":8234.463,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8244.411,"end":8255.214,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8272.227,"end":8286.417,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8307.773,"end":8337.466,"text":"響鐘響鐘"},{"start":8338.888,"end":8347.25,"text":"因為我們在等你來,那你不忍忍你不忍問你先走我沒在等你我沒等你等我就這樣啊"},{"start":8365.936,"end":8380.899,"text":"好,下一位侯欣淳委員,召委啦謝謝召委啦謝謝召委,然後我們請胡次跟杜董事長胡次長、杜董"},{"start":8385.393,"end":8403.021,"text":"市長好委員你好我聽了一整個早上事實上今天的專案的重點有兩個一個是在於這個漲不漲價一個在於這個準不準點那漲價我看你有回答幾個委員的題目你是說這個520絕對還不會漲價對不對我剛好像有聽到這樣子對不對"},{"start":8410.045,"end":8416.296,"text":"目前目前台鐵公司做整個漲價的方案研擬在應該會在下半年才會提出來"},{"start":8416.917,"end":8442.872,"text":"下半年才會提出來那我就想請教一下其實我們台鐵公司化我們很支持但是呢我們比較期待能夠看到的是台鐵公司化之後我們杜董事長能夠跟全體國人提出說我們公司化之後我們未來怎麼樣的專業提升我們的營運收入怎麼專業的提升我們的服務品質怎麼樣的把安全"},{"start":8443.672,"end":8460.509,"text":"致上了這樣子的一個理念落實我覺得大家想先知道的是這個東西而不是在第一時間點上聽到的是要漲價跟不漲價的問題欸杜董事長為什麼會在公司化之後第一個浮上這個新聞版面跟議題的討論的是漲價的問題"},{"start":8463.692,"end":8485.803,"text":"跟委員報告的確剛剛委員提到了尤其是確保安全跟提升服務這個是我們當務之急最需要去做的當務之急是這個嘛那怎麼會是在公視化之後第一個扶上檯面上讓大家惶惶不安讓民心不穩定不安心的很多上班的很多上學的"},{"start":8486.883,"end":8488.865,"text":"對於安全跟服務我們就有努力在做是"},{"start":8511.638,"end":8532.259,"text":"那這個這些指標其實我們會在適當時機再跟外界來做說明因為大家應該每天坐車的也都會有感受是對那所以我覺得這個有感的部分你要先在我們公司化之後告訴國人我們在公司化之前我們做了哪些努力公司化之後我們未來的目標"},{"start":8534.181,"end":8545.759,"text":"現階段讓人民有感未來會讓人民更有感那在安全在專業服務在很多的方面我覺得這個是第一個大開大合我們杜董事長要先向國人來宣告是"},{"start":8546.943,"end":8568.599,"text":"這是最重要的第二個要談漲不漲價像你講的我們研擬了好幾個方案方案裡面你們的如何計算如何的來定價這個要公開透明而且能夠讓大家可以接受的合理範圍之內所以我一直在講我們推動台鐵公司化最優先的絕對不是在講漲價"},{"start":8569.48,"end":8572.542,"text":"這不是我們公司化最主要的一個長遠目標這樣子才能夠讓台鐵公司永續對不對"},{"start":8590.192,"end":8604.46,"text":"對嘛 所以我覺得這個部分杜董事長應該今天有機會或是這幾天有機會應該再公開的再宣示而且要告訴國人讓大家能夠對台鐵的公司化是有期待的"},{"start":8605.1,"end":8627.368,"text":"好不好那我就以剛剛我講的營運收入跟服務品質跟提升安全比如說營運收入其實也不是在談說漲價票價漲就會增加你的營運收入不是欸在我們在台鐵公司的話裡面過去在談論的要提升台鐵的營運收入是先從什麼我們台鐵公司有很多的資產活化的可能性"},{"start":8628.528,"end":8647.206,"text":"這些活化利用的可能性如何增加公司的營運跟收入這個才是重點嘛所以我記得我去年12月也有請我們王國材部長去台中會館台中事實上在火車站附近就有一個這個土地的標誌案是正在開始"},{"start":8648.387,"end":8676.581,"text":"那我也希望這個期程可以更進一步因為也需要地方政府的合作我們希望讓車站周邊這個大進化也能夠把土地髒亂現有的一些土地上台鐵資產的問題我們希望能夠改善改善完之後才能夠提升整體這個火車站周遭的這個不管是警官還有台鐵公司的一個資產活化還有你們的收入嘛"},{"start":8677.723,"end":8678.645,"text":"臺鐵公司最重要任務"},{"start":8696.286,"end":8697.527,"text":"臺鐵公司化之後可以做到更好"},{"start":8727.947,"end":8746.052,"text":"跟委員報告上一次委員質詢的時候也有提到商品我們回去也有做很多面向的努力那包括我們的網站商城我們有給他改設現在不只會員現在外面一般的人都可以進來然後來了解我們商品的銷售"},{"start":8746.892,"end":8755.757,"text":"那這個什麼時候要做是現在就可以做嗎現在已經有了現在你自己再回去你的網站去看還是要綁會員所以你現在跟我講的跟實際上是不一樣的目錄的部分你回去檢討你給我一個書面資料啦我第一個我需要知道的是什麼我們公司化之後從我去年質詢到現在我們做了哪些努力我們做了哪些改進我們的多元行銷策略"},{"start":8772.185,"end":8772.785,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8789.75,"end":8790.57,"text":"這我們會再努力"},{"start":8811.238,"end":8839.082,"text":"所以我期許啦那除了這個商品之外剛剛講的今天的重點準不準點其實對很多上班上學的民眾這個很重要那如何克服你們給我的報告是說很多是天然災變或是死傷事故的不可控制因素那我們可控的因素有沒有可控制住這個台鐵自己內部的一個自律跟所有的規章的要求包括如何提升準點率是我們可以自己要求的"},{"start":8839.522,"end":8865.603,"text":"那杜董事長你首先要告訴大家我們現在的目標是如何提升自己的準點率吧是,我們準點率的提升除了剛剛講到的這些因素以外最主要還是我們本身可控那包括我們車輛、太舊換新以及我們耗資系統的一個優化跟維護那這個部分我們的確是有投入很大的努力同仁也很努力"},{"start":8866.263,"end":8879.116,"text":"我知道努力之外還要讓民眾有感是不是雖然你告訴我們說你近5年來的準點率是提升的那民眾有沒有感這個你們要能夠掌握你有做過民調嗎"},{"start":8880.675,"end":8898.926,"text":"有沒有在隨時的在這個我們在旅客滿意度調查有對對對旅客滿意度裡面你是不是事後也給我一個書面報告旅客的滿意度對我們的準點率是有沒有感有在調查的項目有在調查項目裡面嘛事後可以有一個書面報告好不好讓我知道一下"},{"start":8899.826,"end":8923.565,"text":"最後的最後因為我只是講到安全因為上次部長有告訴我我們在0403的這個地震之後我們不是只有鐵道周邊的邊坡有落石我們要建立這個監測系統我們現在碰到的複合性的一個落石他在鐵道上面有公路公路上面有邊坡邊坡上面的落石落到"},{"start":8924.025,"end":8947.666,"text":"公路了之後又啪啪啪 又落到鐵道中間所以呢 王國材部長曾經告訴我 也回答過我我們未來呢 要建立一套系統那杜董事長也曾經跟我講過 未來會加強跟公路局的聯繫那我現在就問了 我們現在鐵道有做邊坡的這個義務入侵及落實的市井系統公路局也說他有在偵測 有在做 那你們雙邊有沒有橫向的聯繫"},{"start":8950.188,"end":8965.411,"text":"有一個系統的勾結有有現在建立了嗎現在部長指示以後我們有跟公路局那邊我們就馬上召集會議辦會刊辦會刊那打算在有什麼期程可以完成或者是你們要怎麼進行"},{"start":8967.554,"end":8981.468,"text":"我們公司內部我們會在一個月以內提出來一個月以內提出來,跟公務局討論之後一個月以內提出來?對,對好,那一個月後我就等你的答案,我希望能夠建置一個更安全的預警系統,好謝謝謝謝,謝謝趙偉謝謝何清淳委員發言下一位請邱若驊委員發言"},{"start":8998.178,"end":9025.239,"text":"謝謝主席主席好請杜董事長杜董事長請委員好好 董事長好 杜董事長好那首先想要問長久以來旅客對台鐵的信心比較沒有那麼高董事長您知道是為什麼嗎應該是講說我們在安全跟服務做的這個提供的這個程度還不夠"},{"start":9026.289,"end":9047.872,"text":"是,長期下來,台鐵確實在行車安全,還有服務品質,那尤其是班次誤點,班次誤點的情況,那這個是主因,對於合理的票價調整因應,本身並不會為了反對而反對,但是安全服務還有準點,環境的提升改善是務必的,那王國材部長在今年"},{"start":9048.753,"end":9070.61,"text":"一月份的時候也提到說臺鐵公司化的時候包含營運還有安全一定要都要有一定的水準然後再來談票價的調整那今天也才5月6號臺鐵公司化至今那營運和安全水準仍待提升那今天談票價要調漲臺鐵要拿什麼理由讓利潤還有民眾來支持這一次的調漲"},{"start":9071.559,"end":9093.846,"text":"是,也就是說我們在這個研議,因為現在還沒有提方案出來我們現在還在研議階段,那部長也很明確的表示說要到下半年才來討論那在這個階段,我們台鐵公司會就剛剛講的安全服務還有我們的這些形象,我們會做配套來提出來"},{"start":9094.713,"end":9113.949,"text":"是安全服務還有形象那尤其是班次準點的問題那去年審計部的總決算報告指出臺鐵對號列車的準點率相跟區間車相較下來部分車子行進特定的車站有常態性的延誤那其中志強號"},{"start":9115.31,"end":9133.814,"text":"列車延誤的次數,前五大車站分別是斗六、圓陵、宜蘭、嘉義還有松山站,現在還是這五站嗎?有沒有去了解?有,現在這個都已經改善了,那現在誤點情形,比較排列在前面的是我們宜蘭縣的幾個車站"},{"start":9139.644,"end":9161.884,"text":"原因是因為現在宜蘭縣我們正在做規模比較大的包括橋樑的改建還有邊坡的改善那這些都是靈軌工程那靈軌工程的話對於正在運行的列車來講的話要特別注意所以我們在那個區段都有慢行或者是特別的一個措施"},{"start":9162.544,"end":9185.894,"text":"董事長您提到這個工程那像其中的瑞芳站它的霧點率高達93.8%那除了工程的關係還有天災的因素省紀部也指出台鐵行車事故及霧點主要的噪音是因為設備故障人為因素還有司機員的疏失還有關係的行為導致那這個部分要怎麼做改善是"},{"start":9186.914,"end":9212.187,"text":"這個除了設備以外尤其是我們在操作的在行政運轉操作的同仁這個我們會加強教育訓練以及現場實際的考核來加強其實這些我們在我們現在推動的SMS我們都有納在裡面來做進一步的一個加強是那教育訓練部分現在人員是穩定的嗎現在人員還算穩定"},{"start":9213.354,"end":9241.605,"text":"還算穩定那我們這邊看到太魯閣事故發生之後這110年的時候立法院院會跨黨派的委員也無意照案通過台鐵安全還有改革的決議那在同年的六月行政院回覆表示要從三個面向著手首先是安全再來是安定包括人員員工的安定還有財務的安定然後三是轉型讓台鐵員工都能安心那台鐵人力不足還有流失的問題員工沒有辦法安定難道對行車"},{"start":9242.925,"end":9243.606,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":9263.559,"end":9290.127,"text":"那這個部分我們現在是用加速招考從業人員以及去年我們就錄用的特考人員跟營運人員來做填補所以我不諱言我們在總人力的部分是沒有很大的狀況但是進來的同仁必須假以時日讓他有這個足夠充足的一個技術性這個部分要加強"},{"start":9291.007,"end":9316.578,"text":"我們現在都在加強這個部分是因為台鐵現在的人力招募和遴選的速度感不上離腿那對於董事長您能保證今年鐵路的運輸還有安全是沒問題的嗎應該沒有問題應該沒有問題對應該沒有問題因為我們現在能掌握的包括我們從業人員禁用的人力當然不是完全都非常的理想但是我們會用其他的方式來補強"},{"start":9320.201,"end":9342.29,"text":"監察院審計部調查台鐵安全改革的執行計畫情況審核通知事項有揭露台鐵面臨缺信心缺能力還有缺法制等三缺那審計部是建請台鐵競速改善本席則是要求競速改善台鐵什麼時候可以提供改善報告監察院那個是在去年下半年提的"},{"start":9343.49,"end":9365.866,"text":"當時的確有這個就是剛剛委員提到他們調查裡面的情形但是我們在去年年底之前我們那時候還是局啦我們就有替公司有做一個改善的一個規劃現在都在進程上面那剛剛委員提的的確這個審計部講的這些情形現在其實都有改善"},{"start":9366.346,"end":9380.456,"text":"包括人力的數量包括這個人力進來以後他的工作特質這我們都已經有改善是那這個報告再請台鐵公司提供給本席好謝謝董事長好謝謝委員好謝謝朱洛華委員下一位請王宏威委員發言"},{"start":9395.361,"end":9398.575,"text":"謝謝主席 我請我們胡次長胡次長請"},{"start":9408.475,"end":9429.617,"text":"市長,台鐵動漲將近30年,國道客運也動漲了10幾年,將近20年。那我覺得這些票價,事實上確實有調整的空間及必要性。但是呢,我之前就說了,沒關係董事長你回去,我只能稍微講。"},{"start":9431.052,"end":9456.088,"text":"我之前就說了因為我們的電價調漲而造成百頁的漲價的壓力接下來就是交通還有醫療運輸都會有所以其實電價的調整造成到時候不管台鐵也好或國道客運也好那麼他們的漲價會讓我們的物價的壓力會更大那個阻力也會更大我在這邊就已經講過了"},{"start":9458.61,"end":9484.702,"text":"那但今天呢因為時間有限那也有很多委員關心台鐵票價問題但是呢我要跟次長啊來問一下來我們看一下在這個星期六這個陶基呢又出現公安意外可以看到這個畫面沒有我們可能會以為到陶基是到了馬戲團了嗎陶基在每個月都會給我們上演大驚奇"},{"start":9485.962,"end":9514.001,"text":"包含那時候整個的航班大亂還有三不五時就出現這個公安意外這是不是很扯啊一個人這個是工人掉在天花板上因為整個天花板掉下來這個螺絲沒有栓緊我們淘機上一次的整個航班大亂還在這邊有專題報告就是淘機要怎麼樣針對他的經營他的管理要完善而光是就公安意外"},{"start":9515.282,"end":9524.287,"text":"陶姬今年連續有三期都是很大的當然我剛講5月4號看到這個畫面沒有是不是覺得非常驚悚"},{"start":9525.936,"end":9551.107,"text":"然後4月20號其實也同樣發生在我們的機場就是一航廈跟二航廈之間的電聯車竟然這個清洗的這個車子闖到這個軌道內然後這個車子撞上這清洗機那個吊臂都撞上去還好那個工人沒有摔下來因為劇烈的撞劇劇烈的這個撞擊工人也差點摔下來"},{"start":9551.767,"end":9576.063,"text":"摔下來又是一個可能有傷有亡的事件來看113年同樣今年2月21號也是一樣騎落駕拆除作業被夾就是一個勞工被夾死出現了一位勞工死亡的重大旨災所以次長淘機三不五時給我們出現這些驚奇交通部有沒有處理有沒有處理"},{"start":9578.669,"end":9581.811,"text":"有檢討結果嗎?連續發生重大公安意外我相信勞動部應該都有介入調查"},{"start":9595.894,"end":9609.832,"text":"這部分勞動部有沒有介入調查我不清楚沒關係我可以讓勞動部介入調查來我們看下一個下一個這個是勞動部非常的積極主動他們就去介入了因為在上個星期我跟有一號委員踢爆"},{"start":9611.073,"end":9629.878,"text":"台灣高鐵這也是內部員工所反映給我們的事情一個列車長規避酒測上車執行另外一個呢就是他們發聲沒有按照SOP的作業基地電電站預防性保養沒有按照規定時間在夜間斷電的時候進行"},{"start":9632.258,"end":9656.965,"text":"然後也讓這個公單六人差一點會遭受兩萬五千伏特的電擊意外我們來看下一頁這個事情發生之後那麼他們就有一個新聞稿對外還在粉飾太平還說這個爆料不是事實但是他們也承認確實有重大的跳電確實有員工沒有按照規定"},{"start":9657.845,"end":9673.662,"text":"但是他強調是高層早就知道了高層都有指示高層也沒有漠視這個事情可是在左邊其實我當天就出示經營管理週會4月9號發生的事情直到4月30號"},{"start":9675.243,"end":9697.955,"text":"高鐵的高層董事長的在經營管理周會才提到這個事情我們就這個公安意外勞動部已經進入調查已經進入調查但是我要請主管機關交通部針對臺灣高鐵他們所發生我剛講不管是紀律的問題或公安的問題不要一味的只是想粉飾太平"},{"start":9699.136,"end":9716.314,"text":"因為我們希望這個台灣高鐵過去他可能有一些有的時候那個誤點或怎麼樣但是他基本上他的安全性還是很好的我們還是會希望這些重大的公安貨紀律不要一次又一次的累積讓他們正視這個問題可不可以"},{"start":9720.871,"end":9744.549,"text":"這兩個發生跟高鐵有關的事情這部分已經 部裡頭已經請鐵道局在介入調查之中對 我也希望不管剛才講的陶吉或者台灣高鐵我想交通部都不要漠視今天我們雖然講台台鐵很重要啦我也知道這次調整這個票價一定會遭受很多很多的質疑和壓力但是我個人覺得30年未調"},{"start":9745.35,"end":9745.39,"text":"主席"},{"start":9776.752,"end":9796.61,"text":"好,謝謝王宏威委員發言,下一位請游浩委員發言謝謝趙偉那今天先沒有質詢次長,我請那個台鐵公司那還是要請次長能夠多多協助"},{"start":9807.988,"end":9829.278,"text":"在今天的話的質詢議題大家聚焦在所謂的票價還有包括準點的部分那我們現在看到台鐵的是漲價確實因為我以前也是常常坐台鐵所以說我能夠理解台鐵的票價過去其實一直都是很親民的路線那這次剛才如洪偉委員所提這個物價水準的調漲大概包括這個那時候"},{"start":9831.78,"end":9841.715,"text":"電價漲其他各式各樣的民生相關就必須一定有可能就面對這個漲價那大家所擔心焦慮的事情確實就發生了那現在在台鐵要漲價的話我們看這個台鐵的雙鐵票價做個比較"},{"start":9846.201,"end":9866.467,"text":"那在調整票價預估940左右但是在高鐵的這個早鳥價或是學生票的部分其實兩個的相差的這個金額其實不大那想就教一下董事長未來在台鐵有沒有可能在民營化現在已經能夠更親民更有競爭力的情況之下有這個早鳥及大學生的這個優惠可以讓這個更有競爭力"},{"start":9867.597,"end":9891.398,"text":"是 跟委員報告齁其實早鳥票我們是兩年多前我們也推動過不過當時因為我們台鐵的運能還不太夠所以效果不是很好那現在我們新車都陸續抵達了所以剛剛委員提到的包括早鳥還有其他一些吸引課程的優惠我們台鐵公司會努力來做"},{"start":9891.778,"end":9915.292,"text":"好 那就請董事董事長可以就把過去在兩年前這個找鳥的這個相關的資料也給交通委員會的各位委員能夠再做參考也希望未來能夠提升競爭力的找鳥優惠或者是大學生的這種相關的優惠措施那這都可以讓台鐵更具競爭力那我在想說未來也請可以持續來演繹再來開啟好不好是是"},{"start":9916.212,"end":9939.27,"text":"好 謝謝那我本席接著要再請這個鐵道局長以及公安署副署長還能夠一起上台那我就直接接著我們南投縣現在重大的一個議題就是有關於極極支線改善工程現在南投的極極支線基礎設施改善計畫過去在許書華縣長擔任立委期間那就非常的用心的在爭取我相信那時候"},{"start":9940.271,"end":9955.488,"text":"這個鐵路局其實都非常清楚那時候台鐵其實都非常的來協助我們南投線配合許淑華的一個經費爭取到高達這23.63億但是像現在來講的話過去他其實是在車程這一段集集往車程這一段再做一個整修"},{"start":9956.149,"end":9979.743,"text":"那時候的邊坡有坍塌我那時候擔任議員期間就陪許縣長那時候擔任立委來去參與這個相關邊坡整治的一個會刊那時候其實在這個停止的過程在急急往車程的這一段不管是水裡的車站還要包括車程的這個整個觀光的風景區都造成很大的一個影響因為現在來講是沒有辦法有火車能夠進去"},{"start":9980.703,"end":10008.73,"text":"那時候其實整體計畫是預計115年7月完工啊但是在現在來講的話又增加了急急到水裡的這一段也要做一個停止哎 董事長您也清楚嗎那這個過程中其實那時候在3月的時候就直接通知了4月要來做一個就是急急先往後的一個停止所以現在只能到濁水車站那用這個客運來做一個替代可是我想要就教一下董事長"},{"start":10009.11,"end":10030.984,"text":"那這個對於我們地方的觀光衝擊是非常大的影響那董事長對於我們這條支線從濁水溪直接衝擊的就是我們的集集的周遭火車站的這些攤商而且這個施工期間將近一年八個月啊那些攤商真的會名不了聲那我想請教一下董事長這個部分有沒有什麼樣的一個方案可以來協助我們這邊攤商跟集集的觀光業"},{"start":10031.924,"end":10057.134,"text":"首先感謝委員因為在那個發生坍塌的那段期間給我們很大的協助2號跟3號隧道中間那裡那現在其實在5月1號開始我們就是只有行駛到佐水那我們的配套就是我們加強這個觀光性質的接駁車包括路線有一點改變那沿途所經都是跟觀光比較有關係的"},{"start":10058.214,"end":10060.999,"text":"那另外就是我們也加強這個接駁車的一個辦事的疏運"},{"start":10065.071,"end":10089.659,"text":"市長 過去在2022年5月24日在地方上有召開協調會也包括在座不管是台鐵還包括觀光局包括公路局大家共同來探討如何協助這些攤商以及地方的觀光產業坦白講我們的級級鎮長吳大村跟地方民在非常配合台鐵還來做這個相關的一個停止作業"},{"start":10090.299,"end":10090.96,"text":"有關於台鐵公司的部分我們可以來研議"},{"start":10121.949,"end":10142.75,"text":"有關於積極支線不管是車程或者是水裡的車站那觀光局這邊或者是日管處都有協助在車站整體的環境的一個整理那像前一陣子完成的水裡的一個自行車道或者是車程的一個觀光小學堂的一個建置我想這個都對於這個整體的一個觀光的效益有所幫助"},{"start":10143.311,"end":10172.426,"text":"好 我知道這是過去所做的 沒錯那這個熱鬧公安酒飲堂我也有過去那 我是希望後面我們本期還是會邀請包括董事長或是公安署以及鐵路局這邊還有公務局一起來在地方開一個協調會把本期剛才所提的比照那時候許縣長擔任立委期間水里到車程的這一段現在在集集這邊能夠把這些相關的減免措施或是補償優惠或是振興方案到時候做一個探討好不好"},{"start":10173.246,"end":10177.727,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請杜董事長、台鐵"},{"start":10209.829,"end":10223.867,"text":"因為本席是認為公共運輸交通費率要穩定控制那大幅度的調漲將會帶來另一波物價的上漲那台鐵是用電大富"},{"start":10227.331,"end":10239.29,"text":"電價調漲將增加台鐵的營運成本日前立法院已通過電價動漲決議要求但是新政院檢討現行人員政策"},{"start":10240.88,"end":10255.458,"text":"要求行政院檢討,如果行政院最後妥協動漲電價,請問交通部台鐵與高鐵票價調整是否在下半年就不會實施?"},{"start":10267.728,"end":10281.947,"text":"你認為要是說電價動漲的話你們就不實施電價要是說一定要漲那你們就是一定台鐵就是一定要要調整票價是不是"},{"start":10282.852,"end":10311.243,"text":"現在台鐵公司在做的相關的票價的檢討並沒有跟這個電價拉成沒有拉上關係就對了沒有拉上關係因為現在是這樣因為只要票價一漲反正這個一波一波的物價就會跟著漲這是必然的那所以說這一點應該要這個要好好的去這個研究"},{"start":10312.595,"end":10312.615,"text":"那"},{"start":10314.286,"end":10342.305,"text":"市長你請回我請台鐵杜董事長因為杜董事長6月7日至6月11日就是端午加節他有連續的連續假的輸運期那前線將加開各級列車一共99班那請問交通部台鐵產業工會是否有跡象會再次宣布依法休假有沒有"},{"start":10343.67,"end":10357.604,"text":"各位委員報告這個我沒有聽到沒有聽到那因為齁你們一定要深入的瞭解會不會影響整個端午連假返鄉的一些假期返鄉的運輸輸運會不會好我們來瞭解"},{"start":10360.356,"end":10382.103,"text":"因為齁要是真的要是如果台鐵發生罷工是我會再啟動類火車的模式以遊覽車的輸運來解套會不會啊那個我們還是以正常維持正常齁這個連續駕駛的輸運當然啊正常優先嘛問題是你們要未雨綢繆啊是是因為這個很難講啊齁"},{"start":10385.444,"end":10410.938,"text":"那因為臺鐵產業工會呼籲交通部跟臺鐵公司要重視第一線這維持這個鐵路運輸的安全的機工還有電務員工不要放任人才的流失那目前這個媒體有報導臺鐵公司化以後這個考試放放"},{"start":10411.906,"end":10439.843,"text":"部分列車甚至於出現零入取的這種狀況那很多網友就認為台鐵薪資太低不如去跑一些外送普遍打等等這些那以高鐵為例從113年起特別針對一般維修行控還有耗資通訊與電力維修新進人員調高起薪希望保持高鐵"},{"start":10440.964,"end":10441.824,"text":"這部分我們這一次也是公司"},{"start":10459.336,"end":10481.816,"text":"我希望你們真的要好好的來檢討好不好最後一個議題去年4月台鐵出國報告日本安全改革的經驗那心得建議提到台鐵110年重大事故發生後新進員工日益增多資深員工相繼的退休"},{"start":10482.637,"end":10483.017,"text":"是不是這樣子?是"},{"start":10511.503,"end":10525.273,"text":"那會後請台鐵公司以書面說明新進員工的安全訓練與過去110年重大事故發生前有何不同之處好不好是謝謝好謝謝委員好謝謝林德福委員的發言謝謝下一位請"},{"start":10535.585,"end":10549.176,"text":"賴會員委員賴會員,賴會員不在下一位請洪孟楷委員發言謝謝主席謝謝,麻煩請胡次長胡次長請"},{"start":10558.523,"end":10559.484,"text":"國道客運業者的詢問或是方案"},{"start":10586.068,"end":10609.822,"text":"剪輯回覆是跟委員報告目前因為剛交通部是5月1號才核定所以我們就是會國道科學院如果說有要這個調整票價的話他還要提報到我們各區監理所不過我們基本上就是說已經有這個短途的部分在TPS的部分已經有相關的一個補助了那這個中長途的部分的話那個"},{"start":10610.663,"end":10636.622,"text":"中長途非T-pass月票的乘客最高會補助三分之二嗎?那我們匡列了多少元額來去做補助?預計這個部分的話就是說基本上就是說我們預估的這個運量的話在我們的這個公運的預算裡面是足夠可以來支應的的多少啊?還是要看他的運量沒有錯運量但是你會說足夠那代表說你們一定有算過啊是啊"},{"start":10638.464,"end":10659.597,"text":"就是因為這個今年的大概就是說他們提出來的就是預估就是可能就是從5月5月之後的那大概就是說整個的一個就是幾億元的預算我們大概有估算出來啦幾億元這是機密嗎現在民進黨政府主政之下什麼都機密這個不能問是不是"},{"start":10660.798,"end":10678.468,"text":"就是因為他其實跟相關的運量是有關係的是當然跟相關運量有關係這也是本席今天在討論來 次長因為有講到說我們如果說國道客運調整方案的話北高票價最高是漲36塊那今天討論到台鐵29年動漲告終北高票價恐漲300塊差了10倍"},{"start":10687.589,"end":10714.957,"text":"本席也覺得 台鐵也好 國道客運也好這兩個都是非常重要的大眾運輸為什麼 因為對於普羅大眾一般的民生來講這兩個大眾運輸是最多人使用而且可能是不分男女老少或不分收入比較低一點點收入比較高一點點都會利用 對不對那你現在一個國道客運最高36塊可是台鐵突然間跟我們講說要漲300塊"},{"start":10717.113,"end":10724.985,"text":"那我們也沒有任何的補助措施或者是沒有任何的評估那這樣會不會造成民生的衝擊"},{"start":10727.293,"end":10751.303,"text":"國道客運可以編列幾億元來去協助不管是抑制這個票價還漲本席沒有說不漲如果說真的你油價等等上漲你真的撐不下去你該調整不能苛刻或是不能壓榨我們的國道客運嘛不能壓榨駕駛員本席同意啊那但一樣的道理啊為什麼你台鐵你就可以放任300塊500塊這樣去喊"},{"start":10755.001,"end":10776.327,"text":"市長簡單說明一下好不好跟委員報告媒體所報導的那些長出來的這些票價方案並不是現在在討論中的這些方案這個在過去相關的資料媒體取得我也必須承認這是一部分在台鐵公司試算過程但是絕對不是現在在討論的方案試算過程是提出報酬率3% 4% 5% 三個方案嘛"},{"start":10778.047,"end":10783.051,"text":"所以媒體才會講說如果說以5%的方案來比的話北高的志強票志強號的票價會漲到快300元嗎"},{"start":10786.476,"end":10787.336,"text":"現在 這個案 這個試算我們在討論過程之中就是有討論到這些問題 所以"},{"start":10808.406,"end":10835.02,"text":"這件事情在討論我們部裡頭要求台鐵公司一定要充分的去考慮一些其實他的自己的營運條件市場的狀況以剛剛臺北高雄為例他就沒有考慮到我們經常用的所謂這個這個票價是遞遠遞減距離越長這個是沒有考慮過的所以我說這些是試算過程之中某一些假設算出來那這樣子能不能"},{"start":10835.74,"end":10855.247,"text":"比較直接假設就是未來最終的方案絕對調漲北高會低於300元現在現在我們還沒有收到數字我現在不敢跟委所以你有可能會高於300元喔不是你剛講的你剛本席接受你的解釋啊第一5%的推估"},{"start":10856.28,"end":10876.692,"text":"你說這個還沒有經過試算那又說他沒有考慮到說越遠地減所以代表說越遠距離越拉長北高算是最長距離了嘛相對來講要地減嘛所以說那個票價應該要低嘛不會是像現在媒體推估的5%然後要300塊啊所以是不是未來最終方案在這一波裡面不會高於300元"},{"start":10877.591,"end":10902.485,"text":"我只能跟委員報告,原來試算的過程是沒有考慮,那考慮這個一定會比那個低一定會比較低,但低多少,不確定,什麼時候會出來這個現在還不,在我們下半年會提到交通部來考慮現任的部長探索3日就留給520,反正就丟給新任部長來決定沒有打算要幫新部長拆彈的意思"},{"start":10903.467,"end":10925.365,"text":"我們現在預定期程是下半年請台鐵公司提出來這個報告下半年請台鐵提出來那最後啦 市長既然國道客運我們可以用公務預算也去做一些補助讓他的漲的票價不至於太多你說北高最多漲36 吸收三分之二那台鐵相關部分我覺得羊毛出在羊身上"},{"start":10926.366,"end":10945.389,"text":"對於一般的普羅大眾來講票價的反應其實是很敏感而且票價連隨著就是民生的相關的一個消費大家都講萬物皆漲唯有薪水不漲在這一波的漲價裡面是不是也要考慮到如果說我們能夠有些相關公務預算能夠支持的話也應該要適時的支持市長這點可以承諾嗎"},{"start":10947.225,"end":10971.094,"text":"這部分我們變到原來的將來的這個方案裡頭一邊來思考是不要讓國人覺得一樣一樣是這個大眾運輸工具北高國道客運只有漲36台鐵一次要漲30010倍的價差我覺得這會讓國人覺得是說這是大小眼好不好謝謝好謝謝洪孟楷委員發言下一位請"},{"start":10976.859,"end":10995.091,"text":"黃國昌委員發言謝謝主席,是不是可以麻煩有請交通部的胡政志以及台鐵公司的董事長、布董事長"},{"start":11001.467,"end":11024.948,"text":"喂你好政治好董事長針對台鐵需要的資源去讓這個列車更安全我向來都是非常支持的但是從之前我就發現台鐵不要花一堆錢去做沒有效果的東西我舉一個具體的例子當初"},{"start":11025.819,"end":11040.256,"text":"普悠瑪的悲劇發生了以後我後來發現我們的後勤次月管理系統搞得亂七八糟的我當時沒有說錯花了快3億嘛耗費了6年多嘛結果一事無成現在在訴訟"},{"start":11041.437,"end":11070.169,"text":"董事長我的理解沒有錯吧記取之前的教訓我上一次運安會來的時候我就在請教運安會說台鐵去跟政府申請了6千萬這6千萬搞列控4.0到底做出來什麼東西因為這個計畫從一開始的時候從天而降跟台鐵既有的系統根本沒有辦法match"},{"start":11070.589,"end":11099.015,"text":"沒有辦法銜接所以我就一直去追這一個列控4.0到底從什麼地方而來的結果找了一個亂七八糟的廠商去詐騙他自己在美國得獎的經驗結果後來發現他根本就沒有參與美國的那個自駕車的系統拿假的履歷來台灣騙拿到獎了以後結果我們政府一堆補助就給他們"},{"start":11099.835,"end":11122.437,"text":"我上一次請教運安會的時候運安會給我的結論是這個系統根本沒有辦法用董事長這樣不贊成不贊成所以你認為可以用跟委員報告是他裡面驗證的東西是經過驗證的是可以的但是也要跟委員說實話"},{"start":11124.139,"end":11137.656,"text":"他裡面有一些驗證完成的東西因為台鐵很大如果台鐵要全盤來接收的話那個成本會很高現在一個最關鍵的問題這個計畫台鐵還要不要再丟錢下去繼續做"},{"start":11142.612,"end":11167.426,"text":"這個我們要研議就是要研議多久我們預計是要一年來我們繼續再往下看因為我聽到的是在2023年去年1月的時候這個情況視點裡到運安會討論的研討會我聽到的狀況是砲聲隆隆從他的專業性可行性安全性一堆批評全部都出來"},{"start":11168.891,"end":11194.467,"text":"如果今天花錢做的東西是對於台鐵的安全性真的有幫助而且跟既有的系統可以銜接我相信納稅人會支持但是如果是跟以前的我剛剛所舉的那個例子後勤資源管理系統一樣花了快3億搞了6年多一事無成最後現在進行訴訟監察院也糾正了那又怎麼樣"},{"start":11195.546,"end":11222.315,"text":"浪費了錢丟到水裡面去全部都追不回來了我那天在運安會研討會的時候因為我看到這個狀況所以我就非常有興趣我就去跟運安會要了那一天開研討會的時候的會議記錄我看了會議記錄運安會裡面有非常多的委員提出非常專業的質疑但是我在會議記錄裡面完全沒有看到台鐵有答覆所以我趁今天質詢的時間來請教一下"},{"start":11224.736,"end":11236.413,"text":"列控4.0的計畫是台鐵內部經過專業評估而提出來的還是外面上面有大官由上而下丟下來要求台鐵執行的"},{"start":11237.625,"end":11261.679,"text":"跟委員報告齁這個列控4.0的他是一個POC的一個計畫是請問針對問題回答就好是是所以他在提出的時候我們有針對誰在提出的時候就是我們當時是台鐵局是台鐵局自己提的嗎希望爭取預算來做這個POC案是台鐵局自己提的嗎"},{"start":11264.168,"end":11287.32,"text":"這個是台鐵局提的阿對阿你一開始的時候你為什麼會提這個計畫這個是我的問題嘛這也是運安會委員的問題嘛所以他的問題是說你們是台鐵內部經過專業評估自己提出來的計畫還是外面有人丟進來要求台鐵去做的事情這個應該是台鐵局自己內部做了評估以後認為說來我們繼續看下去齁"},{"start":11289.921,"end":11306.352,"text":"媒體有報導張景生要求交通部台鐵局在3年內完成200億的全台列控4.0計畫然後呢在那天研討會的時候台鐵提了一個報告這個報告我去拿來看了"},{"start":11307.335,"end":11319.084,"text":"在23頁裡面說交通部胡政務次長要台鐵盡快完成列控4.0的後續服務驗證以及商業驗證計畫來請教一下胡次長 真的嗎"},{"start":11324.363,"end":11351.101,"text":"你有做這樣的要求嗎我當時是有提這件事情因為我所了解他們提出來的計畫必須要完成這個螢幕上所談的後續的這些相關的商業驗證所以我要求他們儘快要完成這個這個計畫做出來的列控4.0跟台鐵目前所在推的第三彈第三彈CTS的計畫是可以相match的嗎"},{"start":11354.013,"end":11357.258,"text":"這部分還沒有完全去確認這兩部分還沒有完全結合起來"},{"start":11368.652,"end":11383.372,"text":"你現在應該聽得懂我為什麼開始在擔心這件事嗎?如果連這件事情都還沒有確認我們就先設建再劃吧三年內要完成200億的全台列控4.0計畫我看到這個啦我其實有點驚訝"},{"start":11384.634,"end":11407.687,"text":"因為如果是外部的政治力介入為了特定廠商的利益政治力介入去講這種外行的話我雖然不贊成但我可以理解為什麼會發生這樣的事情但我對胡市長的認識是您是一個非常專業的老交通人這兩個還沒有Match的情況之下就提這樣子的要求您覺得真的適合嗎"},{"start":11410.339,"end":11421.195,"text":"我剛我前來提這個要求是當初在列控4.0他應該要完成的這些程序他後面兩次還沒有是針對這件事情你照不贊成再丟200億下去繼續做"},{"start":11424.383,"end":11442.438,"text":"這個要經過審慎評估來 董事長接下來會丟200億下去繼續做嗎這個要評估 報告委員我剛剛有講一年再加上另外半年的一個我們的一個呈報的時間這真的是要經過評估好 我希望台鐵好好評估"},{"start":11444.019,"end":11468.1,"text":"本於專業進行評估我的預測啦你們評估一年完以後我自己的預測依照我目前掌握到所有的訊息這個計畫一定無疾而終這個計畫一定無疾而終因為跟你現有的系統根本對接不起來沒有關係我們繼續往下看但我只要求台鐵一件事情進行這件事情評估的時候請本於你們的專業立場"},{"start":11469.909,"end":11491.948,"text":"不要受到外面的政治力關大學問大帶著廠商莫名其妙的廠商回來就要台鐵拿錢去做這個跟既有的系統根本對接不上莫名其妙的東西請台鐵接下來等於你們的專業好好評估喔不要再繼續浪費錢去做一些沒有用的東西了好謝謝謝謝黃國山委員"},{"start":11499.32,"end":11500.781,"text":"林月琴委員發言陳文瑞、陳局長"},{"start":11531.162,"end":11532.587,"text":"道路交通安全基本法通過"},{"start":11533.855,"end":11556.478,"text":"目前各項法規以基本法為最上位的架構的話都要以人本交通跟我們的用戶安全來作為最高原則來進行各項法規的調修工作可是現在不知道各部的相關的法規的進度跟方向我想也希望你們能夠有掌握不過之間有兩點要跟你的工作有非常大的關係所以也請局長這邊"},{"start":11558.239,"end":11584.53,"text":"給個明確的答案那下一頁那首先呢就是針對於行人安全的保護我想今天鬧上我們的國際媒體裡邊講說我們事實上是行人地獄的時候可是目前看起來在目前國內的道路二法我們的市區道路條例跟其工程的設計標準或是公路法的相關規定當中都有要求人行道的一個設置"},{"start":11585.911,"end":11608.31,"text":"那最新通過的行人交通安全設施條例也是針對都市計畫內的一定寬度以上的道路有要求有分年分期的一些建設計畫保障用戶人的安全可是僅此與此因為部分道路的維修管理維護管理依現行的法規並沒有要求設置人行道的一個相關規定下一頁"},{"start":11610.311,"end":11629.569,"text":"所以再看很多各縣市境內的話非都市計劃區的道路除了被編定為公路外沒有中央的法規來去做規範那再下一頁就會看到是當初張安化三姐弟的入口發生案發的地點就是在"},{"start":11635.111,"end":11655.339,"text":"臺灣長期以來就缺乏我們要完善的都市計畫因此不能夠排除或阻止民眾居住在都市計畫範圍以外的那都市計畫範圍外的那個公共支持就非常非常的有限會發生這樣的事情那我當然知道就是公路局這邊針對此案有非常"},{"start":11655.999,"end":11656.319,"text":"有16個衝突點"},{"start":11684.221,"end":11700.465,"text":"那可是如果採行是MUT的做法的話相當可行可是並沒有這樣採用因為你沒有諮詢到更多的專家學者來採用這種方法雖然這個案子你現在完成了不過我還是要建議未來交通部是不是應該在改善方案當中參採更多的專業意見"},{"start":11702.686,"end":11712.991,"text":"而不是做了下一次事情又再發生那到底我們有多少人命可以來買單咧那反而你這麼匆忙當中沒有完備的話那基本上沒有辦法解決問題"},{"start":11716.728,"end":11739.139,"text":"整個端基本的法規規定裡邊整個要調合法規來提升我們的車輛安全所以過去我們的車輛的形式的調合當中N類跟O類一直以來都是用UNECE來做同步可是在L類似乎看起來都存在很多缺口下一頁"},{"start":11741.02,"end":11757.957,"text":"L4 L6 L7就是不是在你的調和範圍內所以你排除L4 L6 L7的一個車型所以會影響國內的民眾權益像L4我一直長期關心兒少安全他用於承載兒童而且他安全性由於現在交通部在討論的用機車兒童機車作業"},{"start":11761.98,"end":11784.478,"text":"那如果一旦使用這兒童激作作業的時候孩子如果一旦再發生車禍的時候孩子還沒有辦法脫身可是你這竟然是被你排除的下一頁所以在這邊我就主張是不是中央道路主管機關應該儘速一元化重新打造合理的各級道路的法制還有針對我們交通工程的改善是不是要減少衝突點像比如"},{"start":11785.579,"end":11800.391,"text":"MUT的做法還有車輛的形式是不是禁訴跟國際法規接軌來提供國內民眾使用安全的車輛我不知道這三點局長這邊最後是不是給我一個答覆那如果不行的話是不是在一個月內提出具體的回覆"},{"start":11800.871,"end":11826.654,"text":"是跟委員報告就是說整個的像公路系統部分的話目前在公路法58條就是說進入到市區道路的話相關的人行道的一些設計標準都是要比照市區道路那另外在路段外的如果是非非都區域的話其實我們公路本身其實也在檢討整整體的斷面比如說有一些的空間路間可以說的話其實我們就可以來偵測人行道所以我想"},{"start":11827.354,"end":11851.057,"text":"整個人本空間的一個偵測的部分其實是包括這一個內政部國土署跟交通部公路局那另外就是行政院已經也就是就是核定就是說要我們就是說整個這個道路的因為全署有很多單位所以整個道路的規劃的指引的話交通部這邊也會來提出那另外尤其彰化那件事情"},{"start":11851.758,"end":11852.178,"text":"瞭解瞭解"},{"start":11881.593,"end":11898.568,"text":"好謝謝林業勤委員發言下一位請黃建斌委員發言黃建斌黃建斌不在陳雪生委員發言陳雪生棄權陳冠廷委員發言陳冠廷陳冠廷不在請張綺凱委員發言"},{"start":11910.844,"end":11912.527,"text":"市長跟杜董事長"},{"start":11929.136,"end":11932.038,"text":"主席、主席、主席、主席、主席、主席、主席、主席、主席"},{"start":11945.504,"end":11963.502,"text":"不過今天早上我剛有聽你們講的啦所以我們今天就確定不只520前後不會漲下半年才會討論這個案子對不對那我們比較具體化來我們具體化其實要漲價一定要經過你們提這個票價合理方案嘛對不對啊當時我會過台鐵這邊過才送到交通部嘛"},{"start":11964.864,"end":11991.089,"text":"政府會開這個費力的審議會嘛到目前為止到什麼進度杜董事長你們那個案子票價合理化方案還沒想出來還沒還沒有所以今天很明確的今天全民都可以安心今天全台灣民眾都可以安心從第一步都還沒踩出來嘛對不對所以台鐵案子票價合理化還沒出來所以我們是非常明確的全民都可以放心了那第一個我要問的啊"},{"start":11991.989,"end":11994.479,"text":"大概預定什麼時候會送?下半年大概什麼時候?"},{"start":11997.238,"end":12021.259,"text":"這個幹委員報告因為現在我們公司嘛所以這案子經理部門一出來以後要董事會通過我們董事會通過以後才能報布所以確定的期程我現在沒有辦法跟委員你看我們問這個是非常理性的每一個步驟都很清楚你第一步沒跨出去我們清楚跟他講說你沒跨出去可是有跨出去到哪一個時間點我們都要非常明確第一步現在沒跨嘛就等"},{"start":12023.802,"end":12034.793,"text":"應該照我們現在公司的運作還算上軌道應該是下半年的差不多第三季以後下半年第三季是什麼時候"},{"start":12040.334,"end":12042.996,"text":"今天這個時間點應該是最明確的那我們談完這個10千我們再談漲價的這個幅度"},{"start":12066.545,"end":12074.839,"text":"這幅度很大耶你只要九年沒去沒問題啦吃飯你要慢慢吃啊像爬階梯一步一步上來啊你怎麼像充電棒碰一下"},{"start":12076.314,"end":12090.681,"text":"你19年沒賺一萬要賺多少而且你們現在提出的三個案子合理的報酬率要佔3%、4%、5%先備論時就好啦可不可以慢慢來可以嗎?你看這個幅度很嚇人欸你真的要漲3%你要漲到35.64%4%要60.41%5%要14.52%太高了啦!可以再低一點嗎?幅度漲少一點"},{"start":12100.961,"end":12125.982,"text":"報告委員我前面跟其他委員回答是這個您算出來這個是我們是在試算過程中在計算放進去3%、4%、5%我們再計算可能結果但是最後的方案還沒有還沒有研擬因為這些試算的結果還得要考慮其他的一些條件所以這個還不算方案市長所以你要提3、4、5嘛統計就3%3%也很高耶"},{"start":12130.681,"end":12156.968,"text":"有兩個要我奉行嘛第一個從3%再降一點點那第二個就是分聯分梯的我剛才講的那被人家推啦你不是說你沒吃飯吃那麼多你重視我你說對不對是不是這樣我們以前在台下那個水渡浮是不是就是這樣子好不好可不可以不要沖天泡這樣一下29連美漲全部都上來分聯分梯考慮一下好不好把這個納入一個很重要的考量不然我告訴你你看這個幅度喔"},{"start":12157.95,"end":12172.833,"text":"你看台北到高雄那個自強號你如果一次要這樣漲一下要漲300塊一般民眾聽到自強號一下漲300塊也是很嚇人啊而且你漲完之後我看其他同省剛剛也在問啊你是接近那個高鐵的那個自由座的耶"},{"start":12174.612,"end":12201.4,"text":"你這樣有競爭力嗎?杜董事長這個都要考慮好不好第一個不要一下子讓民眾覺得說好像漲太多然後第二個也不要讓民眾覺得說好像一下子你要馬上跟高鐵高鐵在一樣你這樣可能競爭力也有問題啦你我問一下高鐵的事情好不好高鐵你們政府是最大股東嘛高鐵下半年也會漲嗎?今年沒有任何提到票價要漲的喔這也是個好消息喔各體部要去齁有齁當真"},{"start":12204.562,"end":12232.636,"text":"此話當真?次長我們到現在為止沒有說到任何有關於高鐵票價要漲的事所以很有可能下半年也不見得會漲啦OK來我們最後來談一個比較談物價的影響的問題大家看我這個圖現在其實對政府跟對人民來說很重要就是說高鐵29台鐵29年沒有漲大家不會說不合理到說將要不要漲可是你要注意那個時間點"},{"start":12234.321,"end":12259.019,"text":"不要造成那個雙台效應因為你知道只要電價漲了完之後任何的漲價都會變成雙台效應嘛尤其大眾運輸很重要的台鐵又一百個變漲價的火車頭你看這個圖我剛剛講的左邊這個漲電價通勤交通的這個價格如果一漲的話那就非常不得了啦然後現在更嚴重了我們台灣最近開始通膨物價已經上漲了對不對實質的薪資還倒退喔"},{"start":12261.901,"end":12282.465,"text":"這四個東西加起來對台北的發展是不好的啊既然是國營事業啊我們人在關門好休閒嘛不然要做好事情對不對所以一定要注意一個就是我剛剛講不要沖天炮分梯來沒有沒有那我改改方式第二還有一個解決的方案時間點往後一點點齁有兩個很重要我提醒大家了第一雖然事業一躍就漲了電價對不對可是人家是想要小檔電費單六月嘛那第二個還有一個更更嚴重的齁"},{"start":12292.258,"end":12315.445,"text":"6、7、8、9,夏季電價都來對不對所以我拜託一下,台鐵真的要調節,我們剛才說的至少至少,一定要在10月以後才開始討論好不好讓人家可以稍微開始討論,剛才說的,到未來稍微開始討論避開剛剛講的這個電費的這個漲價然後讓最好最好免疫來去今天我們的主席講了很英明的話講了兩次陳雪生說不要雪上加霜好不好"},{"start":12316.205,"end":12316.965,"text":"謝謝章吉凱委員發言"},{"start":12342.168,"end":12354.913,"text":"社會請嚴光衡委員發言,嚴光衡,嚴光衡不在賴思寶委員發言,賴思寶,賴思寶不在陳北渝委員發言,陳北渝,陳北渝不在陳俊渝委員發言,陳俊渝,陳俊渝不在"},{"start":12356.564,"end":12382.933,"text":"登記質詢委員均已經發言完畢,做以下的決定一、報告及懸答完畢二、委員黃珊珊、黃仁、黃建斌、許智偉、陳冠廷所提書面質詢,列入記錄並刊登公報三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面質詢及或未及答覆部分,請交通部盡速以書面答覆本日議程處理完畢,散會"},{"start":12391.323,"end":12391.503,"text":"你知道嗎?"},{"start":12419.206,"end":12428.251,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":12451.052,"end":12472.354,"text":"副總你今天吃的不是鐵路便當嗎?啊不是你為什麼吃別人的然後我吃鐵路便當的?我吃的不好吃啊不好吃我吃的不好吃你吃鐵路便當?對啊稍微下一個鐘沒有鐵路便當不緊張一定要鐵路便當我直白了"},{"start":12481.659,"end":12481.679,"text":"兩位"}]}},{"id":"152227","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152227","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a686575fde09302cfb402d7c7fd85210785801aa916026d4d429cee5e6b172f0fbd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"12:46:08 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剛才如宏偉委員所提這個物價水準的調漲大概包括這個那時候"},{"start":48.026,"end":57.96,"text":"電價漲其他各式各樣的民生相關就必須一定有可能就面對這個漲價那大家所擔心焦慮的事情確實就發生了那現在在台鐵要漲價的話我們看這個台鐵的雙鐵票價做個比較"},{"start":62.426,"end":82.596,"text":"那在調整票價預估940左右但是在高鐵的這個早鳥價或是學生票的部分其實兩個的相差的這個金額其實不大那想就教一下董事長未來在台鐵有沒有可能在民營化現在已經能夠更親民更有競爭力的情況之下有這個早鳥及大學生的這個優惠可以讓這個更有競爭力"},{"start":84.304,"end":107.647,"text":"跟委員報告其實早鳥票我們是兩年多前我們也推動過不過當時因為我們台鐵的運能還不太夠所以效果不是很好那現在我們新車都陸續抵達了所以剛剛委員提到的包括早鳥還有其他一些吸引課程的優惠我們台鐵公司會努力來做"},{"start":108.027,"end":130.337,"text":"好 那就請董事董事長可以就把過去在兩年前這個找鳥的這個相關的資料也給交通委員會的各位委員能夠再做參考也希望未來能夠提升競爭力的找鳥優惠或者是大學生的這種相關的優惠措施那這都可以讓台鐵更具競爭力那我在想說未來也請可以持續來演繹再來開啟好不好是是"},{"start":132.438,"end":155.38,"text":"好 謝謝那我本席接著要再請這個鐵道局長以及公安署副署長還能夠一起上台那我就直接接著我們南投縣現在重大的一個議題就是有關於極極支線改善工程現在南投的極極支線基礎設施改善計畫過去在許書華現場擔任立委期間那就非常的用心的在爭取我相信那時候"},{"start":156.521,"end":175.496,"text":"這個鐵路局其實都非常清楚那時候台鐵其實都非常的來協助我們南投線配合許淑華的一個經費爭取到高達這23.63億但是像現在來講的話過去他其實是在車程這一段集集往車程這一段再做一個整修那那時候的邊坡有坍塌我那時候擔任議員期間就陪許縣長那時候擔任立委來去參與這個相關邊坡整治的一個會刊"},{"start":180.7,"end":208.672,"text":"那時候其實在這個停止的過程在急急往車程的這一段不管是水裡的車站還有包括車程的這個整個觀光的風景區都造成很大的一個影響因為現在來講是沒有辦法有火車能夠進去那時候其實整理計畫是預計115年7月完工但是在現在來講的話又增加了急急到水裡的這一段也要做一個停止董事長您也清楚嗎"},{"start":210.776,"end":224.976,"text":"在這個過程中其實那時候在3月的時候就直接通知了4月要來做一個就是急急先往後的一個停止所以現在只能到濁水車站那用這個客運來做一個替代可是我想要就教一下董事長"},{"start":225.356,"end":247.23,"text":"那這個對於我們地方的觀光衝擊是非常大的影響那董事長對於我們這條支線從濁水溪直接衝擊的就是我們的集集的周遭火車站的這些攤商而且這個施工期間將近一年八個月啊那些攤商真的會鳴不了聲那我想請教一下董事長這個部分有沒有什麼樣的一個方案可以來協助我們這邊攤商跟集集的觀光業"},{"start":248.158,"end":273.363,"text":"首先感謝委員因為在發生坍塌的那段期間給我們很大的協助二號跟三號隧道中間那裡那現在其實在5月1號開始我們就是只有行駛到佐水那我們的配套就是我們加強這個觀光性質的接駁車包括路線有一點改變那沿途索金都是跟觀光比較有關係的"},{"start":274.443,"end":277.188,"text":"那另外就是我們也加強這個接駁車的一個辦事的疏運"},{"start":280.816,"end":305.904,"text":"好,那董事長我接著敲下一頁好了那在許淑華許縣長過去在2022年5月24號在地方上有召開協調會那也包括在座不管是台鐵還包括觀光局包括公路局大家共同來探討如何協助這些攤商以及地方的觀光產業坦白講我們的集集鎮長吳大村跟地方民帶非常的配合台鐵還來做這個相關的一個停止作業"},{"start":306.544,"end":307.184,"text":"有關於台鐵公司的部分我們可以來研議"},{"start":339.759,"end":358.999,"text":"有關於積極支線不管是車程或者是水裡的車站那觀光局這邊或者是入管處都有協助在車站整體的環境的一個整理那像前一陣子完成的水裡的一個自行車道或者是車程的一個觀光小學堂的一個建置我想這個都對於這個整體的一個觀光的效益有所幫助"},{"start":359.54,"end":388.648,"text":"好,我這個是過去所做的,沒錯那這個樂松觀光協議堂我也有過去那我是希望後面我們本席還是會邀請包括董事長或是觀光署以及鐵路局這邊還有公務局一起來在地方開一個協調會把本席剛才所提的比照那時候許縣長擔任立委期間水里到車程的這一段現在在集集這邊能夠把這些相關的減免措施或是補償優惠或是振興方案到時候做一個探討好不好"},{"start":389.488,"end":389.508,"text":"好,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152225","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152225","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a68d6cd316379b81cf502d7c7fd85210785801aa916026d4d42b778835489c198765ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"12:32:48 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12:39:11","影片長度":"00:06:23","會議時間":"2024-05-06T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-11"},"duration":383,"end_time":"2024-05-06T12:39:11+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T12:32:48+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":529,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（12時32分）謝謝主席，我請我們胡次長。"],["主席：胡次長請。"],["胡次長湘麟：王委員你好。"],["王委員鴻薇：次長，臺鐵凍漲將近三十年，國道客運也凍漲十幾年、將近二十年，我覺得這些票價事實上確實有調整的空間及必要性，但是我之前就說了，因為我們的電價調漲造成百業漲價的壓力，接下來交通還有醫療院所都會有。其實電價調整造成影響，到時候不管是臺鐵也好，或是國道客運也好，他們的漲價會讓我們物價的壓力更大，那個阻力也會更大，我在這邊就已經講過了。今天因為時間有限，也有很多委員關心臺鐵票價的問題，但是我要問一下次長，我們來看一下，這個星期六桃機又出現工安意外，大家可以看到這個畫面，我們可能會以為到了桃機是到了馬戲團了嗎？桃機大概每個月都會給我們上演大驚奇耶！包含那時候整個航班大亂，還有三不五時就出現工安意外，這是不是很扯啊！一個工人吊在天花板上，因為整個天花板掉下來，這個螺絲沒有拴緊耶！我們桃機上一次整個航班大亂，還在這邊做專題報告，就是桃機要怎麼樣完善它的經營、它的管理。光是工安意外，桃機今年連續有3起都是很大的，包含我剛剛講的5月4號，看到這個畫面了沒有？是不是覺得非常驚悚？然後4月20號也同樣發生在我們的機場，就是一航廈跟二航廈之間的電聯車，清洗的車子竟然闖到軌道內，然後這個清洗機的吊臂都撞上去，還好那個工人沒有摔下來，因為劇烈的撞擊，工人也差點摔下來，若他摔下來，又是一個可能有傷有亡的事件。再來看113年，今年2月21號也是一樣，起落架拆除作業有1個勞工被夾死，出現1位勞工死亡的重大職災。次長，桃機三不五時給我們出現這些驚奇，交通部有沒有處理？"],["胡次長湘麟：交通部現在已經由民航局責成機場公司在檢討相關的事情。"],["王委員鴻薇：有檢討結果嗎？連續發生重大工安意外，我相信勞動部應該都有介入調查，是不是？"],["胡次長湘麟：這部分勞動部有沒有介入調查我不清楚。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，沒關係，我可以讓勞動部介入調查。我們看下一個，勞動部非常積極主動，他們就介入了，上個星期我跟游顥委員有踢爆台灣高鐵，這也是內部員工反映給我們的事情。一個列車長規避酒測還上車執勤，另外一個就是他們沒有按照SOP作業，基地變電站預防性保養沒有按照規定時間在夜間斷電的時候進行，然後也讓工班6人差一點遭受2萬5,000伏特電擊的意外。好，我們來看下一頁，這個事情發生之後，他們就有一個新聞稿對外說明，還在粉飾太平，還說這個爆料不是事實，但是他們也承認確實有重大的跳電，確實有員工沒有按照規定，但是他強調高層早就知道了，高層都有指示，高層也沒有漠視這個事情。其實我當天就出示經營管理周會，4月9號發生的事情，直到4月30號高鐵的高層董事長在經營管理周會才提到這個事情。好，就這個工安意外，勞動部已經進入調查，但是我要請主管機關交通部針對臺灣高鐵所發生的，不管是紀律問題或工安問題，不要一味的只是想粉飾太平。臺灣高鐵過去有時候可能誤點或怎麼樣，但是基本上它的安全性還是很好的，我們還是會希望這些重大的工安或紀律問題不要一次又一次的累積，讓他們正視這個問題，可不可以？"],["胡次長湘麟：這兩件跟高鐵有關的事情，部裡都已經請鐵道局介入調查之中。"],["王委員鴻薇：對，我也希望不管剛才講的桃機或者臺灣高鐵，交通部都不要漠視。臺鐵很重要，我也知道這次調整票價一定會遭受很多很多的質疑和壓力，我個人覺得30年未調，確實也有調整的空間，可是現在我們確實有通貨膨脹的壓力，大家的質疑也是很合理的，但是這些工安問題可預防而未預防，尤其桃機該打屁股了吧！每個月都在發生這些事情，是不是很扯？次長，我這樣整理給你看，你會不會覺得很扯？"],["胡次長湘麟：不應該發生。"],["王委員鴻薇：當然不應該發生啦，任誰都沒有辦法接受，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝王鴻薇委員發言。","下一位請游顥委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-11","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃建賓","廖先翔","魯明哲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","何欣純","邱若華","王鴻薇","游顥","林德福","洪孟楷","黃國昌","林月琴","張啓楷","黃珊珊","黃仁","許智傑","陳冠廷"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.37659375,"end":4.654718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.92471875,"end":5.61659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.03846875,"end":6.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.184718750000002,"end":15.960968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":16.04534375,"end":16.551593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.68221875,"end":20.61846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":21.293468750000002,"end":25.309718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.76534375,"end":32.38034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":33.072218750000005,"end":37.409093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.674718750000004,"end":39.822218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.362218750000004,"end":49.947218750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.20034375,"end":61.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.860968750000005,"end":65.72534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.23159375,"end":71.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.91846875,"end":74.21346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.43284375,"end":76.64346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.55471875,"end":79.29284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.91721875,"end":84.15284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.49034375000001,"end":84.87846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":85.36784375,"end":88.55721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.23221875,"end":92.64096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.01221875,"end":95.84721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":96.28596875000001,"end":98.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.39096875000001,"end":100.47096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":100.72409375000001,"end":106.41096875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":106.91721875,"end":119.13471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.74221875,"end":122.34096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":122.89784375,"end":126.79596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.96471875,"end":130.94721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.03159375,"end":131.04846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":131.08221875,"end":133.02284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":133.52909375000002,"end":163.19534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.61721875,"end":168.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.74721875,"end":172.91534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.23596875,"end":176.40846875},{"speaker"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就是一個勞工被夾死出現了一位勞工死亡的重大旨災"},{"start":177.305,"end":199.721,"text":"所以次長,逃機三不五時給我們出現這些驚奇,交通部有沒有處理?有沒有處理?交通部現在已經由美方局在折騰這個機場公司在檢討這個相關的事情有檢討結果嗎?連續發生重大公安意外,我相信勞動部應該都有介入調查"},{"start":201.553,"end":201.673,"text":"劉慧卿議員"},{"start":218.738,"end":244.049,"text":"台灣高鐵這也是內部員工所反映給我們的事情一個列車長規避酒測上車執行另外一個呢就是他們發生沒有按照SOP的作業基地電電站預防性保養沒有按照規定時間在夜間斷電的時候進行然後也讓這個公單列人差一點會遭受25000伏特的電擊意外我們來看下一頁"},{"start":247.09,"end":248.671,"text":"這個事情發生之後那麼他們就有一個新聞稿對外還在粉飾太平還說這個爆料不是事實但是他們也承認確實有重大的跳電確實有員工沒有按照規定"},{"start":266.768,"end":281.321,"text":"高層早就知道了 高層都有指示 高層也沒有漠視這個事情可是在左邊 其實我當天就出示經營管理週會 4月9號發生的事情直到4月30號"},{"start":282.902,"end":305.617,"text":"高鐵的高層董事長的在經營管理周會才提到這個事情我們就這個公安意外勞動部已經進入調查已經進入調查但是我要請主管機關交通部針對臺灣高鐵他們所發生我剛剛講不管是紀律的問題或公安的問題不要一味的只是想粉飾太平"},{"start":306.798,"end":323.973,"text":"因為我們希望這個台灣高鐵過去他可能有一些有的時候那個誤點或怎麼樣但是他基本上他的安全性還是很好的我們還是會希望這些重大的公安貨紀律不要一次又一次的累積讓他們正視這個問題可不可以"},{"start":328.533,"end":349.546,"text":"這兩個發生跟高鐵有關的事情這部分已經 部裡頭已經請鐵道局在介入調查之中對 我也希望不管剛才講的陶吉或者台灣高鐵我想交通部都不要漠視今天我們雖然講台鐵很重要啦我也知道這次調整這個票價一定會遭受很多很多的質疑和壓力"},{"start":350.447,"end":350.667,"text":"主席主席"}]}},{"id":"152224","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152224","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a68bb9f2444f1b143b402d7c7fd85210785801aa916026d4d42cf599985f5c4a32d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"邱若華","委員發言時間":"12:26:11 - 12:32:39","影片長度":"00:06:28","會議時間":"2024-05-06T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-11"},"duration":388,"end_time":"2024-05-06T12:32:39+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T12:26:11+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":501,"blocks":[["邱委員若華：（12時26分）謝謝主席，主席好，請杜董事長。"],["主席：杜董事長請。"],["杜董事長微：委員好。"],["邱委員若華：杜董事長好。我首先想要問，長久以來旅客對臺鐵的信心比較沒有那麼高，董事長，您知道是為什麼嗎？"],["杜董事長微：應該是說我們在安全跟服務方面提供的程度還不夠。"],["邱委員若華：是，長期下來臺鐵確實有行車安全還有服務品質的問題，尤其是班次誤點的情況，這個是主因。對於合理的票價調整研議，本席並不會為了反對而反對，但是安全、服務、準點以及環境務必要提升、改善。王國材部長在今年1月份的時候也提到，臺鐵公司化的時候，包含營運還有安全都要有一定的水準，然後再來談票價的調整。今天也才5月6號，臺鐵公司化至今，營運和安全水準仍待提升，今天談票價要調漲，臺鐵要拿什麼理由讓立院還有民眾來支持這一次的調漲？"],["杜董事長微：是，也就是說，我們在研議，因為現在還沒有提方案出來，我們現在還在研議階段，部長也很明確地表示要到下半年才來討論，在這個階段，我們臺鐵公司會就剛剛講的安全、服務還有形象做配套提出來。"],["邱委員若華：安全、服務還有形象，尤其是班次準點的問題。去年審計部的總決算報告指出，臺鐵對號列車的準點率跟區間車相較下來，部分車次行經特定車站有常態性的延誤，其中自強號列車延誤的次數，前五大車站分別是斗六、員林、宜蘭、嘉義還有松山站，現在還是這5站嗎？有沒有去瞭解？"],["杜董事長微：有，現在這個都已經改善了，現在誤點情形排列在比較前面的是宜蘭線的幾個車站。"],["邱委員若華：原因是什麼？"],["杜董事長微：因為現在宜蘭線我們正在做規模比較大的，包括橋梁的改建還有邊坡的改善，這些都是臨軌工程，臨軌工程對於正在運行的列車來講的話要特別注意，所以我們在那個區段都有慢行或者是特別的一個措施。"],["邱委員若華：董事長您提到這個工程，像其中瑞芳站的誤點率高達93.8%，除了工程的關係還有天災的因素，審計部也指出，臺鐵行車事故及誤點主要肇因是因為設備故障、人為因素，還有司機員的疏失或慣性行為導致，這個部分要怎麼改善？"],["杜董事長微：除了設備以外，尤其是行車運轉操作的同仁，我們會加強教育訓練以及現場實際的考核，其實這些在現在推動的SMS，我們都有納在裡面來做進一步的加強。"],["邱委員若華：教育訓練的部分，現在人員是穩定的嗎？"],["杜董事長微：還算穩定。"],["邱委員若華：我們這邊看到太魯閣事故發生之後，在110年的時候，立法院院會跨黨派的委員也無異議照案通過臺鐵安全還有改革的決議，在同年6月，行政院回復表示，要從三個面向著手，首先是安全再來是安定，包括人員（員工）的安定還有財務的安定，三是轉型，讓臺鐵員工都能安心。臺鐵人力不足還有流失的問題，員工沒有辦法安定，難道對行車安全沒有影響嗎？"],["杜董事長微：有，如果人員的安定不夠的話會有影響，我們現在努力的方向，跟委員報告，這一次我們公司轉型，我們的確有一波優退的人退休，離開工作崗位。這個部分我們現在加速招考從業人員，去年我們就錄用特考人員跟營運人員來填補。我不諱言，我們在總人力的部分沒有很大的狀況，但是進來的同仁必須假以時日，讓他有足夠、充足的技術性，這個部分要加強，我們現在都在加強這個部分，包括教育訓練。"],["邱委員若華：因為臺鐵現在的人力招募和遴選的速度趕不上離退，董事長您能保證今年鐵路的運輸還有安全是沒問題的嗎？"],["杜董事長微：應該沒有問題。"],["邱委員若華：應該沒有問題？"],["杜董事長微：對，應該沒有問題。因為我們現在能掌握的包括我們從業人員進用的人力，當然不是完全都非常的理想，但是我們會用其他的方式來補強。"],["邱委員若華：我這邊最後要提到，監察院審計部調查臺鐵安全改革的執行計畫情況，審核通知事項有揭露臺鐵面臨缺信心、缺人力還有缺法制等三缺，審計部是建請臺鐵儘速改善，本席則是要求儘速改善，臺鐵什麼時候可以提供改善報告？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，監察院那個部分是在去年下半年提的，當時的確有剛剛委員提到他們調查裡面的情形，但是我們在去年年底之前，那時候還是局，我們就有替公司做一個改善的規劃，現在都在進程上面。剛剛委員提的，的確有審計部講的這些情形，但是現在其實都有改善，包括人力的數量，包括人力進來以後他的工作特質，這個我們都已經有改善。"],["邱委員若華：是，這個報告再請臺鐵公司提供給本席。"],["杜董事長微：好，OK。"],["邱委員若華：好，謝謝董事長。"],["杜董事長微：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝邱若華委員。下面請王鴻薇委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-11","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃建賓","廖先翔","魯明哲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","何欣純","邱若華","王鴻薇","游顥","林德福","洪孟楷","黃國昌","林月琴","張啓楷","黃珊珊","黃仁","許智傑","陳冠廷"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.7815937500000003,"end":5.684093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.80221875,"end":6.730343750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.15971875,"end":13.598468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":13.598468750000002,"end":17.54721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.52596875,"end":24.01034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":24.41534375,"end":30.65909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":31.06409375,"end":36.126593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":36.49784375,"end":37.57784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.42159375,"end":50.031593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.50409375,"end":53.17034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":53.541593750000004,"end":58.080968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.35096875000001,"end":76.13721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.13721875,"end":76.22159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":76.47471875000001,"end":99.20534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.64409375000001,"end":106.71471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":104.48721875000001,"end":104.90909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":107.23784375000001,"end":128.36534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.97721875000002,"end":140.09346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.03846875000002,"end":142.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.77659375000002,"end":143.35034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":143.72159375,"end":144.09284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.59909375,"end":167.21159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":162.11534375000002,"end":162.21659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":167.39721875,"end":190.95471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.85346875000002,"end":211.93034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.62221875,"end":215.77784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.06471875000003,"end":217.65096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":218.12346875,"end":223.69221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":223.81034375000002,"end":239.38596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":239.7234687500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台鐵確實在行車安全還有服務品質那尤其是班次誤點班次誤點的情況那這個是主因對於合理的票價調整因應本身並不會為了反對而反對但是安全服務還有準點環境的提升改善是是務必的那王國材部長在今年"},{"start":53.77,"end":75.647,"text":"一月份的時候也提到說臺鐵公司化的時候包含營運還有安全一定要都要有一定的水準然後再來談票價的調整那今天也才5月6號臺鐵公司化至今那營運和安全水準仍待提升那今天談票價要調漲臺鐵要拿什麼理由讓利潤還有民眾來支持這一次的調漲"},{"start":76.576,"end":98.863,"text":"是,也就是說我們在這個研議,因為現在還沒有提方案出來我們現在還在研議階段,那部長也很明確的表示說要到下半年才來討論那在這個階段,我們台鐵公司會就剛剛講的安全服務還有我們的這些形象,我們會做配套來提出來"},{"start":99.73,"end":119.092,"text":"是安全服務還有形象那尤其是班次準點的問題那去年審計部的總決算報告指出臺鐵對號列車的準點率相跟區間車相較下來部分車子行進特定的車站有常態性的延誤那其中志強好"},{"start":120.333,"end":138.604,"text":"列車延誤的次數,前五大車站分別是斗六、圓陵、宜蘭、嘉義還有松山站,現在還是這五站嗎?有沒有去了解?有,現在這個都已經改善了,那現在誤點情形,比較排列在前面的是我們宜蘭縣的幾個車站"},{"start":142.796,"end":166.898,"text":"原因是因為現在宜蘭縣我們正在做規模比較大的包括橋樑的改建還有邊坡的改善那這些都是靈軌工程那靈軌工程的話對於正在運行的列車來講的話要特別注意所以我們在那個區段都有慢行或者是特別的一個措施"},{"start":167.578,"end":190.928,"text":"董事長您提到這個工程那像其中的瑞芳站它的霧點率高達93.8%那除了工程的關係還有天災的因素省紀部也指出台鐵行車事故及霧點主要的噪音是因為設備故障人為因素還有司機員的疏失還有關係的行為導致那這個部分要怎麼做改善是"},{"start":191.948,"end":217.204,"text":"這個除了設備以外尤其是我們在操作的在行政運轉操作的同仁這個我們會加強教育訓練以及現場實際的考核來加強其實這些我們在我們現在推動的SMS我們都有納在裡面來做進一步的一個加強是那教育訓練部分現在人員是穩定的嗎現在人員還算穩定"},{"start":218.151,"end":219.672,"text":"臺鐵人力不足還有流失的問題員工沒有辦法安定難道對行車"},{"start":247.941,"end":248.521,"text":"主席"},{"start":268.573,"end":295.164,"text":"那這個部分我們現在是用加速招考從業人員以及去年我們就錄用的特考人員跟營運人員來做填補所以我不會言我們在總人力的部分是沒有很大的狀況但是進來的同仁必須加以時日讓他有這個足夠充足的一個技術性這個部分要加強"},{"start":296.024,"end":321.595,"text":"我們現在都在加強這個部分是因為台鐵現在人力招募和遴選的速度感不上離腿那對於董事長您能保證今年鐵路的運輸還有安全是沒問題的嗎應該沒有問題應該沒有問題對應該沒有問題因為我們現在能掌握的包括我們從業人員禁用的人力當然不是完全都非常的理想但是我們會用其他的方式來補強"},{"start":325.218,"end":347.31,"text":"監察院審計部調查台鐵安全改革的執行計畫情況。審核通知事項有揭露台鐵面臨缺信心、缺能力、還有缺法制的三缺。那審計部是建請台鐵競速改善,本席則是要求競速改善。台鐵什麼時候可以提供改善報告?我跟委員報告,監察院那個是在去年下半年提的。"},{"start":348.51,"end":370.863,"text":"當時的確有這個就是剛剛委員提到他們調查裡面的情形但是我們在去年年底之前我們那時候還是局啦我們就有替公司有做一個改善的一個規劃現在都在進程上面那剛剛委員提的的確這個審計部講的這些情形現在其實都有改善"},{"start":371.363,"end":371.744,"text":"邱若華委員"}]}},{"id":"152223","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152223","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a68bbf79bce11ac658602d7c7fd85210785801aa916026d4d420fd4b0f6903ffae55ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"何欣純","委員發言時間":"12:15:50 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杜董事長為什麼會是這樣子跟委員報告 不是說先談其實我們早在公司成立之前我們對於安全跟服務我們就有努力在做是"},{"start":138.151,"end":158.591,"text":"這些指標其實我們會在適當時機再跟外界來做說明因為大家應該每天坐車的也都會有感受所以我覺得這個有感的部分你要先在我們公司化之後告訴國人我們在公司化之前我們做了哪些努力公司化之後我們未來的目標"},{"start":159.832,"end":171.261,"text":"現階段讓人民有感未來會讓人民更有感那在安全在專業服務在很多的方面我覺得這個是第一個大開大合我們杜董事長要先向國人來宣告"},{"start":172.592,"end":194.25,"text":"這是最重要的第二個要談漲不漲價像你講的我們研擬了好幾個方案方案裡面你們的如何計算如何的來定價這個要公開透明而且能夠讓大家可以接受的合理範圍之內所以我一直在講我們推動台鐵公司化最優先的絕對不是在講"},{"start":194.991,"end":195.411,"text":"臺鐵公司永續"},{"start":215.84,"end":230.108,"text":"對嘛 所以我覺得這個部分杜董事長應該今天有機會或是這幾天有機會應該再公開的再宣示而且要告訴國人讓大家能夠對台鐵的公司化是有期待的"},{"start":230.748,"end":253.016,"text":"好不好那我就以剛剛我講的營運收入跟服務品質跟提升安全比如說營運收入其實也不是在談說漲價票價漲就會增加你的營運收入不是欸在我們在台鐵公司的話裡面過去在談論的要提升台鐵的營運收入是先從什麼我們台鐵公司有很多的資產活化的可能性"},{"start":254.176,"end":272.832,"text":"這些活化利用的可能性如何增加公司的營運跟收入這個才是重點嘛所以我記得我去年12月也有請我們王國材部長去台中會館台中事實上在火車站附近就有一個這個土地的標誌案是正在開始"},{"start":274.033,"end":302.227,"text":"那我也希望這個期程可以更進一步因為也需要地方政府的合作我們希望讓車站周邊這個大進化也能夠把土地髒亂現有的一些土地上台鐵資產的問題我們希望能夠改善改善完之後才能夠提升整體這個火車站周遭的這個不管是警官還有台鐵公司的一個資產活化還有你們的收入嘛"},{"start":303.467,"end":320.473,"text":"是 是不是而且還要跟地方政府合作因為要把他的景觀做到最好包括那附近的交通也很重要所以我認為這個才是台鐵公司化一個最重要的任務之一嘛對不對第二個服務品質才去講到說"},{"start":321.954,"end":351.354,"text":"我們的營收裏面還有一個出口鋼資產收入還有一個是什麼我們的商品嘛我們的行銷嘛就很多委員一整個早上來告訴你們說我們可以跟日本跟歐洲的鐵道一起學習互相交流如何提升我們的什麼鐵道文化跟鐵道旅遊整個如何優質化服務如何更優化這個都是大家可以交流也是大家期許什麼台鐵公司化之後可以做到更好"},{"start":353.595,"end":371.701,"text":"跟委員報告上一次委員質詢的時候也有提到商品我們回去也有做很多面向的努力包括我們的網站商城我們有給他改設現在不只會員現在外面一般的人都可以進來然後來了解我們商品的銷售"},{"start":372.541,"end":378.468,"text":"那這個什麼時候要做是現在就可以做嗎現在已經有了現在你自己再回去你的網站去看還是要綁會員所以你現在跟我講的跟實際上是不一樣的目錄的部分你回去檢討你給我一個書面資料啦"},{"start":387.398,"end":403.856,"text":"我第一個我需要知道的是什麼我們公司化之後從我去年質詢到現在我們做了哪些努力我們做了哪些改進我們的多元行銷策略你之前跟部長跟我講的都一樣的一個答案就是說我們要打造一個專業的行銷團隊那這個專業的行銷團隊我們人到位了沒有"},{"start":408.14,"end":434.968,"text":"支援到位了沒有預算到位了沒有未來如何要來進行的期程那又要改善精進到什麼程度那讓現在的年輕人覺得台鐵是跟我們沒有距離的讓現在在使用台鐵火車的很多很多不管國內外的觀光客是認為台鐵的服務跟旅遊是一級棒的我覺得這個才是我們公司化的第二個最重要的原因嘛對不對是是這個我們會再努力"},{"start":436.889,"end":464.718,"text":"所以我期許除了這個商品之外剛剛講的今天的重點準不準點其實對很多上班上學的民眾這個很重要那如何克服你們給我的報告是說很多是天然災變或是死傷事故的不可控制因素那我們可控的因素有沒有可控制住這個台鐵自己內部的一個自律跟所有的規章的要求包括如何提升準點率是我們可以自己要求的"},{"start":465.638,"end":491.229,"text":"杜董事長你總是要告訴大家我們現在的目標是如何提升自己的準點率吧我們準點率的提升除了剛剛講到的這些因素以外最主要還是我們本身可控那包括我們車輛、太舊換新以及我們耗資系統的一個優化跟維護那這個部分我們的確是有投入很大的努力同仁也很努力"},{"start":491.909,"end":504.765,"text":"我知道努力之外還要讓民眾有感是不是雖然你告訴我們說你近5年來的準點率是提升的那民眾有沒有感這個你們要能夠掌握你有做過民調嗎"},{"start":506.323,"end":524.578,"text":"有沒有在隨時的在這個我們在旅客滿意度調查有對對對旅客滿意度裡面你是不是事後也給我一個書面報告旅客的滿意度對我們的準點率是有沒有感有在調查的項目有在調查項目裡面嘛事後可以有一個書面報告好不好讓我知道一下"},{"start":525.478,"end":549.213,"text":"最後的最後 因為我只是講到安全 因為上次部長有告訴我我們在0403的這個地震之後 我們不是只有鐵道周邊的邊坡有落石我們要建立這個監測系統 我們現在碰到的一個複合性的一個落石他在鐵道上面有公路 公路上面有邊坡 邊坡上面的落石落到"},{"start":549.673,"end":575.878,"text":"公路了之後又啪啪啪 又落到鐵道中間所以呢 王國材部長曾經告訴我 也回答過我我們未來呢 要建立一套系統那杜董事長也曾經跟我講過 未來會加強跟公路局的聯繫那我現在就問了 我們現在鐵道有做邊坡的這個義務入侵及落實的試警系統公路局也說他有在偵測 有在做 那你們雙邊有沒有橫向的聯繫 有 一個系統的勾結"},{"start":577.298,"end":595.984,"text":"有有,上屆部長指示以後有,上屆部長指示以後我們有跟公路局那邊,我們就馬上召集會議辦會刊辦會刊,那打算這有什麼期程可以完成,或者是你們要怎麼進行我們局,我們公司內部我們會在一個月以內提出來"},{"start":596.844,"end":597.124,"text":"何欣純委員"}]}},{"id":"152222","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152222","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a6823fc340ef344b23d02d7c7fd85210785801aa916026d4d42b2e2f3909ef031385ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃健豪","委員發言時間":"11:51:36 - 11:57:23","影片長度":"00:05:47","會議時間":"2024-05-06T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-11"},"duration":347,"end_time":"2024-05-06T11:57:23+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T11:51:36+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":413,"blocks":[["黃委員健豪：（11時51分）好，謝謝主席，我們先請臺鐵杜董。"],["主席：好，請杜董。"],["杜董事長微：委員好。"],["黃委員健豪：董事長好。董事長，今天我們這個會議議題，是針對臺鐵票價上漲、列車準點的提升作為，談到臺鐵票價要上漲，我先講本席的立場，我當然尊重專業啦，該漲的你還是只能調，畢竟28年沒調了嘛。但是比較重要的是什麼時候調整，臺鐵有沒有時間表？預計什麼時候？"],["杜董事長微：沒有，部長在交委會有說明，這個案子要我們研議以後，到今年下半年才來討論。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝董事長，我就是要這個回復喔！因為其實陳建仁院長當初有承諾過本席，520之前除了電價可能要漲之外，當然現在漲了啦，其他相關的票價、公共運輸等等，暫時在520前不會漲，520新政府上來之後，該漲的才來漲，所以本席要確認一下，因為今天這麼早討論，我想說你們是不是520前會漲臺鐵的票價，所以不會嘛？"],["杜董事長微：不會、不會。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝杜董。","接下來進入主題，本席之前在4月16號質詢的時候，當初曾提到邊坡維護管理的部分，你們在17號的時候回我們一個文，其實本席真的是非常的失望，我覺得這真的是太草率、敷衍了，為什麼？因為臺鐵現在是公司化了，公司化後大家期待的東西是效率，是實事求是，因為不是傳統的公部門了嘛，你們已經公司化了，為什麼我要說你們這個回應非常草率跟敷衍呢？因為你們回復我的內容，在我們質詢前就已經知道了，我就是已經知道從太魯閣事件之後，過了3年，你們到112年12月29號才完成草案，預計113年底才完成審議，這件事情、這個流程在4月16號前本席就已經知道，社會大眾已經知道了，為什麼提出來質詢？就是覺得說為什麼拖了這麼多年？有沒有要加速？結果你們回我這個東西，而且是回一個我本來就知道的東西。所以我要問的是，董事長，既然臺鐵已經公司化，我想公司化最重要的目的是要能夠有效率的回應客戶的需求啊！如果今天客戶，今天這些消費者希望臺鐵公司……我們今天代表消費者的立場，我們今天不講立委跟官方部門，我們今天講的就是消費者跟公司的立場，消費者覺得臺鐵要漲價，臺鐵是我們要依賴的、仰賴的運輸工具，但是我希望這個交通工具能夠安全啊，結果你們邊坡維護要113年底才能夠完成審議，有沒有機會提早啊？董事長。"],["杜董事長微：委員指的這個是管理的規範嘛。"],["黃委員健豪：對。"],["杜董事長微：這個不是我們公司訂的，這是我們要遵循的一個規範。"],["黃委員健豪：所以這是交通部的事情，不是臺鐵公司的事情？"],["杜董事長微：我不知道是……"],["黃委員健豪：這是誰的業務？"],["楊局長正君：報告委員，這個案子是鐵道局完成的規範初稿，我們已經報給部裡面，過去規範的審查跟頒布在部裡面是有一定的流程，所以它一定會委託專業機構，邀請相關的學者專家來逐條逐條的討論，然後也請鐵路公司來表示意見，換句話說，這個作業確實會花一點時間啦。這個部分的話，可能我們還要有完整的資訊，跟部裡面主辦的這個複審單位協調，再跟委員報告。"],["黃委員健豪：所以你們還是要到113年底，也就是今年年底才能夠完成相關審議？"],["楊局長正君：這個我們來設法跟部裡面協調，因為這是我們報出去的啦，我想我們再來跟部裡面協調，看看有沒有機會把這個複審的時間來做縮短。"],["黃委員健豪：好，謝謝。","接下來，我繼續請教臺鐵公司，請看下一頁，其實這個部分我們希望在113年底前能夠趕快完成，好不好？鐵道局的部分。","再來，區域運輸的票價當然要調整，剛剛本席提過我的立場上我不會特別反對，但是我們希望公司化之後，營運能夠有彈性，尤其是現在這個階段，我想西部主要幾個大城市的城際運輸，剛剛前面很多委員都有提過了，要跟高鐵競爭。以公司對公司的競爭來講，我想每個公司都有自己的定位，我們期待臺鐵公司能夠調整作為短程的，無論是配合高鐵也好，或變成城市捷運的一部分也好，董事長，有沒有機會往這個方向規劃？"],["杜董事長微：有，有關區域運輸，其實主要還是通勤、通學，以及我們短程的客人啦，這個部分，我們在近期也會推出相對應的一個措施。"],["黃委員健豪：因為你現在還是有，比如說臺中后里到屏東潮州的區間車，甚至基隆到嘉義的區間車，但是我想這已經不是區間車了，這已經是城際運輸了，未來這種區間車會不會再調整？"],["杜董事長微：會，跟委員報告，剛剛委員講的這種區段，其實是比較屬於區間快車跟城際的範疇。"],["黃委員健豪：對。"],["杜董事長微：剛剛委員講的區域運輸應該是範圍更小的。"],["黃委員健豪：對，更小的。"],["杜董事長微：我們會來調整。"],["黃委員健豪：好，董事長謝謝，時間到了，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝黃健豪委員的發言。","休息15分鐘，吃飯。","休息（11時57分）","繼續開會（12時15分）"],["主席：現在繼續開會。","下一位請何欣純委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-11","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃建賓","廖先翔","魯明哲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","何欣純","邱若華","王鴻薇","游顥","林德福","洪孟楷","黃國昌","林月琴","張啓楷","黃珊珊","黃仁","許智傑","陳冠廷"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":0.06471875,"end":0.9590937500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.38034375,"end":8.02971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":8.215343750000002,"end":9.29534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":16.09596875,"end":16.70346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.05784375,"end":17.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.00284375,"end":37.409093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":37.814093750000005,"end":38.62409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.04596875,"end":49.03596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.03596875,"end":49.05284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":49.187843750000006,"end":52.07346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":52.799093750000004,"end":59.59971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":59.954093750000006,"end":73.53846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":73.69034375000001,"end":73.70721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":73.70721875000001,"end":74.19659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.19659375,"end":76.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.40284375,"end":120.92346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.41284375000001,"end":131.25096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":131.63909375,"end":144.73409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":145.44284375,"end":170.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.02534375000002,"end":171.54846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":172.08846875,"end":183.10784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":182.66909375,"end":184.86284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":185.77409375000002,"end":187.20846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":189.99284375000002,"end":190.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":190.44846875000002,"end":191.20784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.56471875000003,"end":206.76659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":206.88471875000002,"end":209.36534375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":209.70284375,"end":215.13659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":215.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這個案子是鐵道局完成的規範的出稿那因為我們已經報給部裡面那過去規範的審查跟頒布在部裡面是有一定的流程所以他一定會委託專業機構邀請相關的學者專家來逐條逐條的討論然後也請鐵路公司來表示意見之後換句話說 這個作業確實會花一點時間"},{"start":231.189,"end":255.74,"text":"那這個部分的話可能我們還要再有完整的資訊跟部裡面主辦的這個副省單位再跟委員做報告所以你們還是要到113年底這幾年年底才能夠完成相關審議這個我們還設法跟部裡面協調因為這是我們報出去的那我想我們再來跟部裡面協調看看有沒有機會把這個副省的時間來做縮短好 謝謝那接下來我們繼續請教台鐵公司"},{"start":257.349,"end":257.489,"text":"王國材議員"},{"start":275.757,"end":296.189,"text":"主要的幾個大城市的成績運輸我想剛剛前面很多委員也提過了要跟高鐵競爭以公司對公司的競爭來講我想每個公司都有自己的這個定位那麼期待說台鐵公司能夠調整作為這個短程的這個配合高鐵也好或是城市捷運的一部分也好董事長有沒有機會往這地方交代來規劃"},{"start":298.15,"end":321.645,"text":"這個有關區域運輸其實主要還是通勤同學以及我們短程的這個客人那這個部分我們在近期我們也會推出相對應的一個措施因為你現在還是有用比如說臺中後旅到屏東潮州這種區間車甚至台積農到嘉義的這種區間車但是我想這已經不是區間車了這已經是城際運輸了這樣子的未來這種區間車的調整會不會再調整"},{"start":325.522,"end":330.608,"text":"會會因為跟委員報告那個剛剛委員講的這種區段其實是比較屬於區間快車跟成績的範疇對那剛剛委員講的區域運輸應該是更範圍更小的對我們會來調整好董事長謝謝時間到了謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152219","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152219","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a6893e80d7fffeb795c02d7c7fd85210785801aa916026d4d42cedbb00e0087671e5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林俊憲","委員發言時間":"11:43:58 - 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是11點36啦"},{"start":140.339,"end":165.217,"text":"也就是說最後一班的旅客到達台南那沒有砂輪線可以搭了那你來看一下新竹新竹最後一班車是11點半但新竹有一條台鐵的支線6加往新竹它是11點40才開你讓旅客才有時間轉接駁那台南砂輪站哪有這樣子設定最後一班車呢因為你砂輪站的只要客人都是高鐵下來的"},{"start":166.519,"end":170.586,"text":"所以高鐵的末班車晚上11點48你最後一班車怎麼可以11點36這個你要改一下"},{"start":173.644,"end":175.725,"text":"沙崙縣還有一點他跟新竹我再來做比較"},{"start":198.38,"end":220.918,"text":"新竹跟台南這個支線我認為他們很相像平均等候時間都30分鐘但實際上不是因為台南沙崙站它那個間隔班次有好幾班有6班都40分到51分鐘也就是說那個車班次非常的稀疏那這一點我是認為相較起來這個應該也要改善"},{"start":225.623,"end":227.164,"text":"台鐵最新的車廂EMU3000就是你最新購買的車廂"},{"start":250.418,"end":254.18,"text":"台鐵最新的火車廂但是你裡面的無障礙廁所這個設計非常有問題第一個你現在設定的那個轉彎柱和迴轉空間"},{"start":267.968,"end":293.899,"text":"你這樣看得懂嗎?你看你這裡啦一般我們身上人士要進到廁所這是門啦他一定要走這裡進來然後他必須要到這裡因為他一定要垂直才進得來啦這是必然嘛那進來以後啊他裡面空間夠不夠這是個嚴重的問題啦你知道吧好我現在幫你套這個圖啦現在你設計的是直徑120就是半徑60啦"},{"start":296.414,"end":321.896,"text":"你進來以後他就卡住了他幾乎不能動所以現在人是說啊現在他們才很無奈說啊你現在設計的這種新車廂的無障碍廁所只能給小孩子用啊就小孩子用那車子比較小嘛我現在調查給你看來我就幫你去做市場調查了現在市面上啊最主要的這種電動輪椅啊它的半徑 會長半徑啊都是70 80 90"},{"start":324.471,"end":349.946,"text":"他越來越大台了因為他已經配備越來越好了你像這麼現在這裡都是市面上最多的電動輪椅了完全進不去啦完全進不去啦那你為什麼只設計半徑60呢因為你自己有個很奇怪的規定這個叫大眾運輸工具無障礙車設置辦法因為你裡面就設定了徑寬度不得小於120啦所以你現在車手設計就用最低標啦你知道這個標準嗎"},{"start":355.68,"end":383.071,"text":"董事長這個標準我並不太清楚可能要回去看一下就是道中運輸工具無障礙設施的設施辦法這是交通部當時訂的規定因為道中運輸工具不是只有你這應該不是我們訂的對啦 這交通部訂的那他給很多的因為有可能有台鐵有高鐵有捷運等等但你你現在不一樣你現在時代又在轉變"},{"start":385.098,"end":410.516,"text":"那這個部分我也會要求交通部應該要去想辦法把它改掉可是你去設計這個車廂內部的設置用途的時候你可能是依照這個啦所以你才會現在你的無障礙廁所回廠半徑就定在最低標準半徑只有60公分以現在的生產人士的電動輪椅根本沒有辦法使用這一點"},{"start":414.561,"end":438.642,"text":"這點你有沒有幫我改善這個我要看一下我們車子實際的狀況你要改善啊不然不然電動身障廁所只給小孩子用身障廁所給我身障人士不能使用你頂會衝啊這會衝啊好不好我們再來研究請你去去把它改善好謝謝委員好謝謝主席謝謝董事長好謝謝林俊憲"}]}},{"id":"152218","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152218","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a6814a1749da18caa5302d7c7fd85210785801aa916026d4d4259671ad967cd14905ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳素月","委員發言時間":"11:36:44 - 11:43:53","影片長度":"00:07:09","會議時間":"2024-05-06T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-11"},"duration":429,"end_time":"2024-05-06T11:43:53+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T11:36:44+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":355,"blocks":[["陳委員素月：（11時36分）謝謝主席，請主席邀請胡次長，還有杜董事長。"],["主席：請胡次長、杜董。"],["胡次長湘麟：陳委員你好。"],["陳委員素月：次長，還有董事長早安。今天委員會是針對我們臺鐵票價調整及列車準點率的改善來進行詢答，就臺鐵票價調整的部分，本席的看法是，臺鐵現在已經改制為臺鐵公司了，應該先就服務品質跟運輸安全提升之後，再來談票價的調整。就像剛剛我們蔡其昌副院長也有提到的，你漲價也要讓民眾甘願接受，你現在的服務品質跟運輸安全，民眾都有不良的印象，那你來調整這個票價，我覺得民眾沒有辦法接受。","我們來看，以我的選區的員林火車站為例，電梯對民眾來說真的是很重要的一個設施、設備，可是我們看到它在最近這兩個月就故障了好幾次，在3月15的時候這個電梯故障，旅客被困了50分鐘。在4月18號，就是最近而已，又故障了，又困了3名旅客，這樣子的服務品質，你說要來調整票價，我覺得民眾的心裡面都在OS啦！所以我想這個部分，我們應該就全國各車站的設施、設備、整個服務品質，好好地檢討跟提升，就這方面，次長有什麼看法？"],["胡次長湘麟：我覺得在這種狀況下，電梯設備的故障應該是平常保養就能夠馬上做好，當然，偶爾發生我覺得無法避免，但是如果短時間之內連續故障，這是不應該的。"],["陳委員素月：對啊，所以保養很重要，可是我們看到4月18號的這個故障，是在剛保養完的隔天就故障，到底有沒有落實保養啊？"],["杜董事長微：有，跟委員報告，這個保養的紀錄我們有去查了，但是因為這個電梯是員林高架成立以後就開始使用，也有十幾年了，所以在4月18號以後，就員林站這個電梯，我們已經要把它的整個控制系統都換掉，因為它比較陳舊。這個在5月6號，也就是今天，我們就在進行，已經在做了。另外，我們對於全公司、全路的電梯跟電扶梯，會另外做一個總檢討。"],["陳委員素月：除本席現在所舉的員林車站這個例子之外，還有田中車站的電扶梯也一樣，在去年的過年春節時電扶梯故障，後續包括電梯招標、施工一直都很不順。就這些事項，我們希望臺鐵儘快完成，提升服務品質。"],["杜董事長微：是，我們來努力。"],["陳委員素月：另外，有關準點率的問題，一般民眾都認為軌道運輸是快速又安全的，一旦沒有辦法準時，對民眾來說就會造成民怨。我們印象最深的就是在2022年中秋節時火車大誤點，這個又是發生在我的選區，也就是大村火車站往南，中正西路平交道。那時候修了兩、三天都沒有修好，不僅造成火車誤點，也讓當地交通大亂！因為平交道的柵欄無法升起，阻礙交通與民眾的通行。據說故障的原因是電流干擾，造成平交道設備故障，不曉得後來有沒有確定到底是什麼原因造成的？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，在2022年中秋輸運期間號誌故障一事，我們有找到原因，後續都已經改善完成，所以該區段目前沒有這種情形。"],["陳委員素月：目前沒有那個情形？但我認為應該針對全臺所有號誌系統，不管是更新還是檢修都應該確實落實，畢竟一發生故障就會影響到行車安全與準點率。"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["陳委員素月：我們也看到，今年七堵到宜蘭也發生號誌故障，以致列車誤點長達51分鐘到41分鐘不等。這種誤點狀況若一再發生，將造成民眾對臺鐵公司的服務品質產生不好的印象！目前一般民眾對臺鐵公司有準點率與安全問題的印象，從而造成旅客的流失。次長，你知道目前的旅客流失有多少嗎？"],["胡次長湘麟：報告委員，數字我並不是很清楚。"],["陳委員素月：不是很清楚？就本席所看到的數字來說，截至去年10月，平均日運量為58萬人次，比疫情前少了6萬；高鐵則是20萬人次，成長了2萬。本席建議，在考慮調整票價時，也要努力改善並提升服務品質，把旅客找回來，我想這應該是當務之急。"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，我們公司對此也非常重視，以今年3月的例子來說，今年3月平均每天輸運的旅客量已經回到66.9萬人，比去年同期成長百分之十五點多，我們還會繼續來努力。"],["陳委員素月：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝陳素月委員的發言。下一位請林俊憲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-11","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃建賓","廖先翔","魯明哲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","何欣純","邱若華","王鴻薇","游顥","林德福","洪孟楷","黃國昌","林月琴","張啓楷","黃珊珊","黃仁","許智傑","陳冠廷"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.27534375,"end":6.494093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.498468750000001,"end":6.0553437500000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":6.74721875,"end":7.202843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.868468750000002,"end":14.745968750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.762843750000002,"end":44.96909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.25596875,"end":64.61159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.88159375000001,"end":70.18034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.85534375,"end":88.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.52346875,"end":89.85659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.10971875,"end":93.02909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":93.33284375000001,"end":94.19346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":94.66596875,"end":97.56846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":97.95659375000001,"end":107.84534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.18284375,"end":123.23534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":126.25596875000001,"end":139.67159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.99221875,"end":148.29471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.23159375,"end":147.26534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.78409375,"end":152.05784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":152.26034375,"end":187.30971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":175.80096875,"end":176.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":187.57971875,"end":211.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":211.33971875,"end":212.50409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":212.60534375,"end":215.87909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":216.55409375000002,"end":228.53534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":228.70409375000003,"end":243.14909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.26721875,"end":243.72284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":243.94221875000002,"end":253.03784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":253.54409375000003,"end":268.81596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":269.17034375000003,"end":277.47284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":277.75971875,"end":290.06159375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.43284375,"end":293.72346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":294.01034375,"end":296.65971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":296.84534375000004,"end":360.12659375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":317.5172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請主席邀請胡次長還有杜董事長杜董"},{"start":13.925,"end":35.625,"text":"陳委員您好次長還有董事長早安今天委員會是針對我們台鐵票價調整及列車準點率改善來進行詢問就台鐵票價調整的部分本席的看法是認為我們台鐵公司好像已經改制為台鐵公司了應該先就服務品質"},{"start":38.928,"end":64.228,"text":"跟運輸安全要來提升之後再來談這個票價的一個調整因為就像剛剛我們蔡奇昌副院長有提到的你企業你也要讓這個民眾可以感恩接受你現在你的服務品質跟運輸安全讓民眾都有這個不良的一個印象那你來調整這個票價我覺得民眾沒有辦法接受"},{"start":65.449,"end":93.967,"text":"那我們來看最近以我的選區這個元寧火車站這個電梯這個電梯對民眾來說真的是很重要的一個設施設備可是我們看到他最近這樣兩個月就故障了好幾次在4月這個3月15的時候這個電梯故障這個旅客被困了50分鐘在4月18號就最近而已就最近又故障"},{"start":94.727,"end":95.227,"text":"市長有什麼看法"},{"start":126.5,"end":139.57,"text":"這部分我覺得在這種狀況下電梯設備的這種故障應該是平常保養就能夠馬上偶爾發生當然我覺得無法避免但是如果短時間之內連續的故障這是不應該的"},{"start":140.666,"end":166.941,"text":"這保養很重要可是我們看到這個4月18號的這個故障是才剛保養完的隔天就故障所以我覺得這個到底有沒有落實這個保養這跟委員報告這個保養的紀錄我們都有去查了但是因為這個電梯是圓齡高架成立以後就開始使用也有十幾年了所以我們這一次4月18號以後我們就圓齡站這個電梯"},{"start":170.084,"end":185.884,"text":"整個控制系統都要換掉因為他比較成就那這個5月6號就今天我們就來進行已經在做了那另外我們對於全公司全路的那個電梯跟電腐體我們另外會做一個檢討總檢討"},{"start":187.702,"end":214.938,"text":"是就是就本席剛剛現在所舉的這個元林車站的例子之外還有包括田中車站的這個電扶梯也一樣在這個去年的這個過年春節這個電扶梯的故障包括我們的電梯的招標施工也一直都很不順所以我們希望就是說就這些事項我們應該盡快的把它幫他完成提升我們的服務的品質對那另外就是有關這個準點率的問題"},{"start":216.619,"end":245.888,"text":"我們一般這個軌道運輸就是民眾認為是快速又安全的那你當這個沒有辦法準時的時候對民眾來說也是造成民怨我們印象最深的就是在2022年這個中秋節的時候這個火車大霧點這個又是發生在我的選區就是大春火車站往南就是南邊的這個中正西路的這一個平交道修了兩三天都沒有修好"},{"start":246.668,"end":246.808,"text":"陳素月議員"},{"start":267.681,"end":273.464,"text":"《中秋輸印》期間號誌故障有找到原因後面的改善已經都完成了所以這個區段目前是沒有這種情形"},{"start":297.069,"end":321.782,"text":"這其實目前沒有那個情形那當然就是說我們也是要針對全台所有的耗資系統的一個不管是更新還是檢修我們應該都是要確實來落實因為你只要發生故障就是會影響到這個行車的安全跟這個準點率的一個問題那我們也看到就是說包括今年在這個宜蘭"},{"start":323.022,"end":323.362,"text":"陳素月議員陳素月議員"},{"start":345.674,"end":347.155,"text":"市長知道目前的旅客流失有多少嗎?報告委員這個數字我並不是很清楚"},{"start":369.417,"end":397.285,"text":"不是很清楚因為就本席所看到的數字就是說截至去年10月我們平均的日運量是58萬人次比疫情前是少了6萬那高鐵則是20萬人次成長了2萬所以就是說我這邊本席也是建議我們在考慮就是說要調整票價的時候我們要努力去改善提升我們的服務品質把我們的旅客找回來我想這個應該是當屋至極"},{"start":399.465,"end":418.04,"text":"跟委員報告因為其實這個我們公司也是非常重視那我們舉今年3月的這個例子今年3月我們平均每一天輸運的旅客量已經回到66.9萬的那比去年同期是成長15%點多這個我們還會繼續來努力好 謝謝好 謝謝 謝謝陳素月委員發言"},{"start":429.053,"end":429.445,"text":"響鐘"}]}},{"id":"152217","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152217","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a683f0b07fa9db5463402d7c7fd85210785801aa916026d4d42a5c4e5b55e05ac0b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林沛祥","委員發言時間":"11:27:35 - 11:36:33","影片長度":"00:08:58","會議時間":"2024-05-06T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-11"},"duration":538,"end_time":"2024-05-06T11:36:33+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T11:27:35+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":305,"blocks":[["林委員沛祥：（11時27分）謝謝主席，有請次長。"],["主席：請次長。"],["胡次長湘麟：林委員好。"],["林委員沛祥：次長好。本席其實有在交通部底下的國營企業體上班過5年，所以我蠻知道國營企業體有關國營公司轉型之後的辛苦。本席不會在這邊預設立場說臺鐵的漲價是沒有必要的，也不會在這邊特地談。但是本席想在這邊談一下，另外一個交通部底下的國營公司最近又出了一些狀況，也就是桃園機場公司。5月4號下午兩點的時候，第二航廈出現修繕人員從天花板突然墜落下來的事情，所有的工作人員跟旅客都嚇了一大跳。次長能不能跟我們解釋一下到底發生了什麼狀況？"],["胡次長湘麟：細節上我請相關單位再提供給你，不過就我所瞭解的部分，不管是國營事業或者其他的都不應該發生這些事情。我看到的是有人員從天花板上面不慎掉下來，雖然沒有造成什麼傷害，不過再怎麼樣的處理，我覺得都不應該發生這樣的事情，特別在國門的機場裡面，我覺得這個部分交通部會要求機場公司審慎來處理這件事情。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝次長。次長，我知道修繕天花板主要是修繕有關雨季來臨的下水道狀況，其實我個人也清楚，我上次質詢的時候也直接質詢過部長，在過去十幾年來，每年只要遇到豪大雨都有出現桃園機場淹水的狀況，我在這邊就不禁想請問交通部，雖然今年的豪雨季節還沒有到，但桃園機場航廈針對漏水、淹水的部分是不是已經準備好了？"],["胡次長湘麟：這個部分在細節上我並不是很清楚，但是很抱歉，我要跟委員說明，這部分是交通部或者是所屬機場公司必須要做的事情。您問我準備好了沒有，我相信這個應該有做一些準備工作，至於是不是完善，我覺得這部分還要再經過檢討。"],["林委員沛祥：這就是本席為什麼今天特地把這個拿出來講，因為我們知道再過一、兩個禮拜可能豪大雨就會來了，而且極端大雨來的時候，我們的一航廈、二航廈都相對老舊，而且很容易漏水，所以我們現在正在做三航廈的工程。本席也知道每年都出了這個狀況，所以我在這邊一定要利用會議時間來特別提醒，既然次長剛剛講這是國家門戶、這是國家的顏面，那國家顏面再一次漏水的時候，不能說乙說、張說，新加坡樟宜機場也一天到晚漏水，所以我們也可以漏水，我想這樣的答案不只是本席不能接受，全國的國民也不能接受。","第二個議題，其實也是我們今天最主要談到的議題，是有關我們的鐵路票價漲價。本席是基隆地區選出來的立法委員，鐵路的票價漲價，基本上來講，對於臺北跟基隆之間雖然有影響，但是影響的程度或許目前還可以，但是本席就很關心另外一個問題，也就是有關國道客運、國道巴士的問題。請問一下，我上次已經私底下問過交通部王部長，什麼時候運價補貼可以上路，今天次長或公路局局長是否已經掌握到比較確切的訊息，讓本席的選民，尤其是通勤族瞭解？事實上，不只是本席在基隆關心，包括桃園地區也很關心運價補貼什麼時候能夠上路，像牛煦庭委員，他的選區裡面就有兩條葛瑪蘭的路線馬上要被關，這件事我想請交通部解釋一下。"],["胡次長湘麟：好，麻煩陳局長來跟您說明。"],["陳局長文瑞：跟委員報告，整個運價的調整，交通部在5月1日核定了，我們在這整個運價的部分，已經照全聯會提出來的公式核定了，所以我想5月2日之後、核定之後，我們對於補貼的方案，短程由TPASS來處理；中長途部分的話，就是我們補貼三分之二，這個部分在核定之後，我們都會依照各客運業者的運量計算補貼還給業者。"],["林委員沛祥：好，本席想請教局長，什麼時候客運業者可以實質收到這方面的補貼？大概什麼時間點？"],["陳局長文瑞：這個因為已經核定了，核定之後業者來跟我們申請的話，我們就會核撥。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝，請問一下，在這個條款上面是不是有規定這個業者如果拿到補貼，主要必須用在多請一些司機，或者對於司機薪資的調漲上面？是否有這樣的規定？還是實際上就是補貼給客運業者隨便用？"],["陳局長文瑞：沒有，原則上補貼的話，包括服務品質的提升、薪資提升的這些要求，我想補貼的時候，我們也會對客運業者有所要求。"],["林委員沛祥：好，謝謝次長跟局長的回答。現在本席每天早上開車上班，只要是超過7點之後，從基隆市大業隧道一路到可能桃園，這兩邊就會塞車，一路到差不多重慶北路交流道，這兩邊從7點開始，每一個交流道、每一個出口都會塞車，就算你走路肩還是會塞車。本席認為現在我們看到的，除了我們現在一天到晚在喊的捷運之外，另外一方面，也希望我們能夠增加國道客運、巴士的班次，那增加班次就跟我們有沒有司機有絕對的關係。在這邊本席希望，為了要讓國1從基隆到臺北端這一段路程，大家能夠比較輕鬆地免於塞車之苦，增加國道客運、國道巴士是有必要的。在此本席高度肯定交通部的作為，也恭喜次長能夠順利退休，然後一切順利，謝謝。"],["主席：沛祥委員等一下。陳局長，你回答一半，票價補貼的部分，票價調漲了沒有？調漲已經核定了嘛﹗"],["陳局長文瑞：運價。"],["主席：是運價？"],["陳局長文瑞：運價。"],["主席：那票價補貼有沒有？我今天打電話給王部長，他已經批了。"],["陳局長文瑞：對。"],["主席：批了，你們收到沒有？"],["陳局長文瑞：有，收到了。"],["主席：那什麼時候要實施？"],["陳局長文瑞：就是……"],["主席：票價補貼，一個是全部，一個是三分之二，一個是二分之一，是不是？"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["主席：那你們現在是怎麼個補貼法？"],["陳局長文瑞：我們就是補貼三分之二，TPASS的部分，因為TPASS月票的費率並沒有調整，也就是說全國的TPASS使用者，比如基北北桃是1,200元，其實他就是付1,200元，其他的……"],["主席：我記得有跟你提過這件事情嘛。"],["陳局長文瑞：有。"],["主席：你現在的票價民眾已經無法接受了，你如果運價調漲的部分不全額補貼，調整三分之二也好，補助三分之一、補助一半也好，這個票價還是沒人坐！這些國道、這些客運業者一樣虧損啊！"],["陳局長文瑞：報告主席……"],["主席：一樣倒店啊！一樣倒啊！"],["陳局長文瑞：不會，跟召委報告，其實已經補貼三分之二，現在就是說像這個短途的部分，臺北到桃園或是基隆到臺北……"],["主席：短途沒有問題是不是？"],["陳局長文瑞：對，中途……"],["主席：中途、長途？"],["陳局長文瑞：臺北到臺中我們有算過，臺北到臺中的話，四排座次大概最高可以漲17塊錢，然後三排座的話是17元。"],["主席：等一下，你回答我，你們還會不會再檢討？"],["陳局長文瑞：跟召委報告……"],["主席：你先給三分之二，我沒有意見。"],["陳局長文瑞：是。"],["主席：還會不會再檢討？"],["陳局長文瑞：有，我們檢討的就是另外還有一些獎勵的激勵機制，包括它的新路線或是運量的……"],["主席：它這樣就完整了？"],["陳局長文瑞：對，還有其他的獎勵機制，謝謝。"],["主席：好，謝謝林沛祥委員的質詢。","下一位請陳素月委員質詢。我們等一下林俊憲委員質詢完畢，休息10分鐘。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-11","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃建賓","廖先翔","魯明哲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","何欣純","邱若華","王鴻薇","游顥","林德福","洪孟楷","黃國昌","林月琴","張啓楷","黃珊珊","黃仁","許智傑","陳冠廷"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":4.01346875,"end":5.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":5.785343750000001,"end":5.81909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.81909375,"end":6.40971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.87784375,"end":9.34596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":10.172843750000002,"end":10.864718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":13.328468750000003,"end":13.699718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.72909375,"end":15.134093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.134093750000002,"end":15.302843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":15.302843750000001,"end":29.207843750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.730968750000002,"end":47.46659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":47.78721875,"end":67.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":68.74596875,"end":69.50534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.12971875000001,"end":76.08659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":76.59284375,"end":82.95471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":83.44409375000001,"end":87.81471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.05096875000001,"end":89.62034375}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謝謝那請問一下在這個條款上面是不是有針對說這業者如果拿到補貼是不是能夠必須在於在主要是用在是說他們的再去再去多請一些司機或者對於司機的薪資的調漲上面是否有這樣的規定還是說只是讓就是補貼給客運業者隨便用"},{"start":339.905,"end":353.48,"text":"原則上就是說當然就是補貼的話包括就是說服務品質的提升薪資的一個就是說提升的一個要求這個我們會對客運業者我想補貼的時候我們也會對客運業者有所要求"},{"start":353.8,"end":372.374,"text":"好 謝謝次長跟局長的回答因為我會認為說現在目前我本席每天早上開車上班那只要是超過7點之後從基隆市大葉隧道一路可能到桃園這邊兩邊就會塞車一路到差不多重慶北路交流道兩邊7點開始每一個交流道"},{"start":372.654,"end":372.834,"text":"林沛祥"},{"start":395.58,"end":397.381,"text":"沛祥委員等一下陳局長你回答一半"},{"start":418.703,"end":433.349,"text":"票價補貼啊票價上漲有沒有,條長已經核定運價票價補貼有沒有我今天打電話王部長他已經批了批了你們收到沒有收到了那什麼時候要實施"},{"start":434.409,"end":461.57,"text":"就是票價補貼補貼一個是全部一個是三分之二一個是二分之一是不是那你們現在是怎麼補貼法我們就是補貼就是三分之二就是TPS的部分的話因為他們的TPS的這個月票的費率並沒有調整所以TPS的使用者的話就是說全國的TPS使用者的話比如說雞皮疙瘩一千兩百元那其實他就付一千兩百元那其他的政治"},{"start":463.912,"end":480.263,"text":"你現在的票價民眾已經無法接受了你如果不做全額的運價調漲的部分不全額的補貼你調整三分之二也好,補助一半也好,這個票還是沒人做啊"},{"start":481.284,"end":497.43,"text":"這些國道這些客運業者一樣規準啊一樣倒墊啊一樣倒啊跟趙偉報告就是說其實已經補貼身分資了那現在就是說像這個短途的部分臺北桃園或是基隆臺北"},{"start":497.91,"end":498.671,"text":"你回答我 你們還會不會再檢討"},{"start":517.544,"end":518.364,"text":"謝謝林沛祥委員的質詢"}]}},{"id":"152211","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152211","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a68ded5c4cbc6a1a34302d7c7fd85210785801aa916026d4d42d7dcd980b23cef445ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蔡其昌","委員發言時間":"11:17:30 - 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站在人民的角度比較高層次來看待這個問題事實上他"},{"start":124.65,"end":151.121,"text":"他很務實因為你最終還是人民來買單只是沒有直接從人民的口袋拿間接從他的口袋拿好那要漲價所以漲價的題目很務實也該理性來討論但是站在民代的立場本席認為要漲價之前有兩個問題我認為台鐵一定要取得人民的同意的至少說大家甘願一點一個叫安全一個叫服務"},{"start":152.486,"end":180.957,"text":"那安全跟服務沒有辦法抽象在這裡談什麼叫安全什麼叫服務我們應該有一些指標來談一個企業的安全跟服務特別是像交通事業安全就是信任沒有你對這個交通運輸事業不信任你是不可能去打他的那當然你台鐵沒有辦法因為你是獨佔我不能有第二家鐵路公司所以我只能選擇你所以這時候安全就會變成我們更重要的職責"},{"start":182.455,"end":208.168,"text":"所以我也知道你們要成立那個叫做安全委員會辦法已經通過了但是好像還沒有成立這個跟委員報告齁因為有需要依循的要點跟一些相關規定要經過董事會那董事會在就是最近這一次已經過了所以我們這個月一定可以讓他開始來運作"},{"start":209.068,"end":224.621,"text":"那我要強調的意思是說我支持非常支持安全委員會的設立但是我希望這安全委員會他一定要有功效的安全委員會他不是一個三個月開一次會然後大家了備一個你要賦予這個安全委員會有實質怎麼來"},{"start":227.643,"end":244.868,"text":"作為台鐵公司在安全的問題上面的一個建議甚至適度的怎麼去監督或者怎麼可以讓他在安全的整個SOP的機制裡面他可以發揮角色我認為這個是你在設計這個安全回應裡面很重要的"},{"start":246.038,"end":265.721,"text":"我說信任是一個很長期性的議題就安全才會有信任而信任又是長期性的問題它毀滅很快它一次一次事故或者什麼它就毀滅掉你長期建立所以要建立這個不容易但你必須要花很你有很強烈的決心跟耐心來處理這個"},{"start":267.142,"end":284.935,"text":"所以這個是本席對台鐵第一個期待就你的安全委員會盡早趕快成立這裡面的人員千萬不要都邀請一些了備一格大家只是來簽名報到的你要這些人要實質可以協助台鐵在安全的議題上面讓人民來感受"},{"start":285.996,"end":301.59,"text":"那第二個就服務嘛那服務當然啦民眾是乘客民眾客數高跟客數低我就知道你服務品質好跟不好嘛為什麼因為民眾有一個對比組啦什麼叫對比組高鐵就是你的對比組"},{"start":302.611,"end":322.751,"text":"現在民眾搭高鐵現在你看高鐵班班客滿連過去那個下午最沒有人的時間也一票難求立法委員也常常買不到票我們也都是一班一班的一直等所以你的對照組就是高鐵所以你的服務品質你沒有達到高鐵那個水準"},{"start":323.735,"end":350.589,"text":"我覺得民眾會馬上立刻不會有人太多去區別他認為這個都是背後都是政府那為什麼台鐵可以做得到高鐵你做不到或許台鐵公司的同仁會覺得我這樣的指責過於嚴苛因為基本營運條件不同成立的背景也不同董事長你背負的是一個很大的殼雖然這個殼已經把你改名字了從政府把你改成公司但殼還是那個殼"},{"start":352.148,"end":370.243,"text":"所以你怎麼快速的讓人家改變你覺得這個服務品質跟高鐵很接近差不多你以後要開始調漲價調任何的事情民眾才會覺得舒服一點不然的話他就是透過我們立法院一直罵"},{"start":371.229,"end":397.287,"text":"那剛剛大家提到今天包括主席安排這個準點率就是一個指標嘛這個就是很明顯譬如說他老是因為高鐵他封閉啦他的軌道都是封閉啦所以他要準點相對容易多嘛對不對這個我們都很清楚但是民眾不會這樣覺得這都是軌道運輸啊啊你這台鐵喔大概就是一定會遲到欸這個刻板印象非常強烈"},{"start":398.137,"end":423.984,"text":"那我們的整體的同仁董事長你怎麼帶領大家這個整體同仁的從民眾去火車站開始的搭乘經驗我們每一個站務人員他不在他是服務業的他不是公務人員他不是當官的他是服務業所以他的笑容怎麼訓練他的服裝儀容怎麼親切該如何被表達出來這個都是"},{"start":426.502,"end":449.74,"text":"放在你身上的重責大任嘛服務是什麼除了那些我剛剛講像準點率這種明確的指標他從人民的感受是很直接的因為他會去高鐵站他也會去台鐵站那你怎麼讓台鐵站他的那個感受是很接近我就講永遠高鐵是你的對照組所以你們的面臨的挑戰是很大的"},{"start":450.595,"end":474.889,"text":"除了你的營運的挑戰你所有的這些周邊你沒有談沒有把服務品質提升讓人民感受好你沒有在安全上得到人民的信任你要談任何的漲價我說實在話主力都會很大所以本席今天沒有太多時間讓你回答因為時間都很有限所以我大概我就提供這個讓你們可以有一點這個參考那"},{"start":476.909,"end":501.408,"text":"董事長那個挑戰才剛開始不只這個因為你接下來你是公司所以本席也接下來會問你未來幾年我會問你問你什麼問題問你說你的營運目標你的KPI在哪裡你營收的比重你的商品販售你的票物收入你的其他業外的你怎麼去弄這個公司這個都是你的挑戰"},{"start":502.762,"end":520.323,"text":"所以你可以得到交通部很大的協助但是台鐵本身在營運上面他未來所要面臨的東西其實是很大的那因為大家都在等新的部長包括票價的調漲看起來也要等新的部長上任之後來拍板"},{"start":521.605,"end":539.944,"text":"那次長應該要退休了所以今天我們來這裡我在這裡強烈質詢也沒什麼意義說實在話那我就祝福次長辛苦了董事長你任重道遠新的部長怎麼給你支持這個支持我希望不是只是預算的挹注"},{"start":540.925,"end":564.016,"text":"他應該在經營讓台鐵的經營特別在服務安全跟創造更多的業績的可能上面你的工作跟觀光署是一致的那個周副署長有來你跟他是一致的為什麼因為觀光就是你你就是觀光你們兩個其實是一起的只是我們業務上把它分開來觀光人口多大家對台鐵"},{"start":565.177,"end":586.351,"text":"觀光署推鐵道旅遊,你的鐵道做到你離落落,大家去那邊也要死那這個他也失敗,你也失敗嘛,所以這個是一體的,這是一體的好啦時間已經到了,主席已經站很久了啦,不好意思,他體重那麼重又站那麼久,不好意思那謝謝主席,多給我一點時間,那也謝謝兩位,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152210","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152210","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a68f1e573cdd436effc02d7c7fd85210785801aa916026d4d42effd30bbe266b48c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"徐富癸","委員發言時間":"11:10:10 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11:17:13","影片長度":"00:07:03","會議時間":"2024-05-06T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-11"},"duration":423,"end_time":"2024-05-06T11:17:13+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T11:10:10+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":269,"blocks":[["徐委員富癸：（11時10分）謝謝主席，有請我們的胡次長、臺鐵公司杜董事長還有觀光署周副署長。"],["主席：胡次長、杜董、周副署長。"],["胡次長湘麟：徐委員你好。"],["徐委員富癸：次長、董事長、副署長，早安。剛剛前幾位委員都提到票價調整的部分，本席也是臺鐵的常客，我們經常搭火車，然後接高鐵到臺北來開會。以本席的看法是覺得，目前北高的票價從843元一口氣調整到1,144元至1,219元，本席這邊也接到很多鄉親的陳情，他們覺得寧可搭高鐵，針對這個部分，董事長有什麼看法？"],["杜董事長微：這個價格我們還在研議中，所以這也不是我們現在研議的最後定案。"],["徐委員富癸：這一點我們還是要提醒臺鐵公司，當然公司的營運一定要講求獲利正常，但是競爭力也非常非常重要。另外，我想提出一個看法，其實以屏東來講，我們的火車站相當多，本席也發現有很多的退休長輩把坐火車去旅遊這件事情當作是一個很重要的日常生活。本席建議臺鐵公司，尤其是交通部，在整個觀光發展的過程裡面不要忽略了，除了臺鐵公司之外，他們有跟我們的一些旅遊業者做合作方案，但是我覺得觀光署也應該要扮演一定的角色，我們的長輩透過坐火車的過程到地方，可以做怎樣的旅遊行程，這部分交通部是不是可以整合一下？讓觀光署、臺鐵相關的單位能夠一起做，包含我們的港務公司怎麼樣做一個旅遊的規劃，觀光署有沒有什麼樣的看法？"],["周副署長廷彰：謝謝委員的垂詢，我們對於樂齡旅遊非常重視，所以不管是在旅宿的選擇、交通運具的搭乘或者是遊程，尤其像長輩有一些無障礙的需求，在我們的國家風景區裡面都有這種無障礙的設施。在交通運具或者是旅宿的部分，我們有一個樂齡的黃金專案，也鼓勵旅行社去包裝這個行程，不管從景點或者是交通運具，或者是旅宿的選擇……"],["徐委員富癸：副署長，本席的意思是觀光署也應該要主動跟臺鐵甚至高鐵來做怎麼樣的整合，因為你們如果沒有去整合這些業者，他們將本求利，一定是考慮到成本，你們觀光署沒有出手的話怎麼去整合？"],["周副署長廷彰：是，報告委員，我們除了剛剛說的旅行社整合之外，也有跟臺鐵公司合作推出Taiwan PASS的套票，所以不管是國際的旅客或者是國內的旅客，我們都鼓勵利用Taiwan PASS──整合台灣好行還有捷運、鐵路在同一個票券，利用這樣的方式旅行。"],["徐委員富癸：好，這部分我們還是請觀光署跟相關的臺鐵公司整合。","另外，次長，我再請教一下，我們交通委員會4月8號有到屏東考察嘛？當時我們有要求所謂的鐵路安全性的問題，其中最重要的部分就是鐵路高架化，尤其屏東有好幾個車站都還屬於一個平面，造成所謂的交通事故。我們之前也透過媒體知道臺鐵要成立安全管理委員會，甚至有一些相關的推動小組，我們很擔心會不會疊床架屋？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，首先我們公司的安全管理委員會已經成立了，因為它依據要點必須有一些推動的模式，需要經過董事會的決議，這些程序都已經完成，所以我們在這個月可以開始讓安全管理委員會正常運作。"],["徐委員富癸：好，我們還是強烈要求交通部應該針對屏東的部分，因為屏東的高架化確實是一個減少交通事故很重要的處理工程，當然鐵道局這邊有所謂的規劃期程，但是我們覺得這個期程真的要加快，畢竟車禍事故頻傳，百姓不安心啦！尤其又會造成淹水的問題。","另外，針對所謂的招考問題，本席接獲很多鄉親說他們是臺鐵的同仁，他們都在東部，希望調動回來，但是我們的招考一直很不順利。剛剛前幾位委員也有提到招考，因為我們的薪資結構，還有我們並沒有針對擁有鐵電焊、高空機、堆高機這些證照的加分機制，所以造成我們招考的情形不理想，這部分是不是有改善的空間？"],["杜董事長微：有，跟委員報告，這一次其實也不是不順利，有達到預期，可是尤其在東部，的確我們從業人員的報考沒有很踴躍，有這種情形。我們現在已經針對這個情形去看招募的程序中是不是還有哪些可以加分的、有誘因的，我們納到下一次的考試來辦理。"],["徐委員富癸：對啦！董事長，人家如果有一些相關的證照，在業界的薪水都比你們的3萬3還高，人家怎麼可能會選擇到貴公司去服務？不可能啦！"],["杜董事長微：我們的基層就3萬3到4萬2了，有證照的部分，我們可以讓他的級別再調整一下，這是可以的。"],["徐委員富癸：對，我們應該再重新檢討一下考試制度，讓更多專業的同仁可以加入臺鐵公司的行列，對我們整個運輸也好，安全也好，應該有更多的保障，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝徐富癸委員的發言。","下一位請蔡其昌副院長。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-11","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃建賓","廖先翔","魯明哲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","何欣純","邱若華","王鴻薇","游顥","林德福","洪孟楷","黃國昌","林月琴","張啓楷","黃珊珊","黃仁","許智傑","陳冠廷"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":4.283468750000001,"end":8.83971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.755343750000002,"end":9.582218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":8.856593750000002,"end":11.134718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":11.235968750000001,"end":11.87721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.695343750000003,"end":15.47159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":20.12909375,"end":56.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":57.540968750000005,"end":60.88221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":61.540343750000005,"end":65.26971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.53971875,"end":67.02471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":67.02471875,"end":68.86409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":69.74159375,"end":75.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":75.59721875000001,"end":143.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.19784375,"end":147.85596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":147.97409375,"end":149.37471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":149.47596875000002,"end":152.91846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.20534375,"end":157.91346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":158.11596875,"end":161.23784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":161.57534375,"end":163.70159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":163.81971875000002,"end":166.04721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":166.24971875,"end":169.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":169.35471875000002,"end":171.27846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":171.49784375000002,"end":180.47534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":180.05346875,"end":198.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":198.66659375,"end":226.54409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":225.02534375000002,"end":225.80159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":226.52721875,"end":235.84221875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":236.75346875000002,"end":268.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":271.48221875,"end":290.28096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":290.66909375,"end":294.71909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":294.71909375,"end":294.80346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":295.52909375,"end":295.54596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":295.54596875000004,"end":358.99596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":358.99596875000003,"end":386.38409375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":386.97471875,"end":396.52596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":395.81721875000005,"end":404.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":402.75284375,"end":403.10721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":404.98034375000003,"end":418.37909375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":420.40409375,"end":423.50909375000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":4.639,"end":11.571,"text":"謝謝主席有請我們的胡次長還有台鐵公司杜董事長還有觀光署周副署長周副署長"},{"start":20.848,"end":42.236,"text":"市長、董事長、副市長早安我想剛剛前幾位委員都在提到票價調整的部分那本期我們也是台鐵的場客我們經常搭火車然後接高鐵到台北來開會那以本期的看法是覺得說目前如果我們的北高的票價843塊一口氣調整到1144塊到1219塊"},{"start":49.419,"end":68.632,"text":"本席這邊也接到很多鄉親的陳情他們覺得他們寧可搭高鐵針對這個部分董事長有什麼看法這個價格我們還在研議中所以這個也不是我們現在研議中的一個最後的一個定案"},{"start":70.213,"end":84.788,"text":"這一點我們還是要提醒台鐵公司當然這個公司營運一定是要講求獲利正常但是這個競爭力也是非常非常的重要那另外我想提出一個看法就是說其實這個"},{"start":86.389,"end":86.769,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":103.114,"end":129.037,"text":"建議這個台鐵公司尤其是交通部在這個整個這個觀光發展的過程裡面不要忽略了除了台鐵公司之外他們跟我們一些有跟我們一些的旅遊業者有做合作的套方案但是我覺得觀光署也應該要扮演一定的角色我們的長輩怎麼透過坐火車的過程裡面到我們地方可以做怎麼樣一個旅遊的一個行程這部分"},{"start":129.457,"end":130.898,"text":"關公署有沒有什麼樣一個看法?"},{"start":147.216,"end":176.719,"text":"好謝謝謝謝委員的槌尋那我想我們對這個樂嶺的旅遊是非常的重視所以不管是在旅宿的一個選擇交通運具的一個搭乘或者是遊程那就是像這種長輩有些那無障礙的一個需求在我們的國家風景區裡面其實都有這種無障礙的這樣的一個設施那在交通運具或者是說這個旅宿的部分的話我們有一個這個專案就是一個樂嶺的一個黃金的一個專案那也鼓勵著旅行社去包裝這個行程不管從景點"},{"start":180.861,"end":198.212,"text":"本席的意思是我們關公署也應該要主動可以來跟台鐵甚至高鐵來做一個怎麼樣一個整合因為你們如果沒有去整合這些業者他們將本就利他們一定是考慮到成本那你們關公署沒有出手的話怎麼樣去做一個整合"},{"start":198.732,"end":226.401,"text":"是報告委員吼那我們除了剛剛這個旅行社的一個整合之外吼那也跟呃台鐵公司這邊我們有合作推出這個台灣帕斯的一個套票所以也是鼓勵我們呃這個呃不管是國際的一個旅客或者是我們呃國內的一個呃這個旅客吼都可以利用這個台灣帕斯吼整合台灣好行還有這個呃捷運還有還有這個呃鐵鐵路然後把整個在一個同一個票券用這樣的方式吼去做旅行"},{"start":226.581,"end":254.241,"text":"好這部分我們還是請關公署跟我們相關的呃台鐵公司來做個整理因為次長我再請教一下我們4月8號有到屏東交通委員會考察嗎對那當時我想呃我們有要求說一個鐵路的一個安全性的問題那其中最重要的部分就是所謂的一個鐵路高架化那尤其屏東還有好幾個呃車站的部分都還屬於一個平面那當然造成所謂一個交通事故那"},{"start":254.821,"end":255.061,"text":"徐富癸"},{"start":271.639,"end":294.514,"text":"跟委員報告首先那個我們公司的安全管理委員會已經成立了那因為他必須要依據這個要點還有一些推動的模式需要經過董事會的一個決議那這些程序都已經完成所以我們可以在這個月開始讓安全管理委員會正常運作"},{"start":295.575,"end":317.335,"text":"好 那我們這個我們還是強烈要求這個交通部應該針對所謂我們因為屏東這個高價化確實是一個很重要的一個減少交通事故很重要的一個事故的一個處理的一個工程那當然我們這個鐵道局這邊有所謂一個規劃的期程但是我們覺得這個期程"},{"start":317.935,"end":343.669,"text":"真的要加快畢竟這個車禍事故頻傳百姓不安心那尤其又會造成淹水的問題那另外針對這個所謂的一個招考的問題因為本期這邊也接獲我們很多的鄉親我們是我們台鐵的同仁他們都在東部希望調動回來但是因為我們的招考一直很不順利那剛剛我們的前幾位的委員也有提到招考因為我們的薪資結構"},{"start":344.91,"end":368.68,"text":"還有所謂的我們並沒有針對所謂擁有鐵電焊高空機堆高機這些證照的加分的一個機制所以造成我們招考的一個情形不理想那這部分是不是有改善的空間有跟委員報告那這一次其實也不是不順利就是有達到預期可是在東部尤其是在東部的確我們從業人員這個報考沒有很踴躍有這種情形"},{"start":372.722,"end":385.411,"text":"那我們現在已經有針對這個情形我們再看在招募的這個程序中是不是還有哪些可以加分的有誘因的我們拉到我們下一次的考試來辦理"},{"start":387.251,"end":404.513,"text":"董事長,人家如果有一些相關證照,人家在業界薪水都比你們3萬3還高,人家怎麼可能會選擇到貴公司去服務?我們基層就3萬3到4萬2了,那我證照的我們可以讓他集結再調整一下是可以的"},{"start":405.174,"end":418.58,"text":"對啦應該是我們再重新檢討一下我們考試一個制度讓更多專業的同仁可以加入到我們台鐵公司的行列那對我們整個運輸也好安全也好應該更有更多的保障啦好謝謝好謝謝徐富癸委員的發言"}]}},{"id":"152209","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152209","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a6884e3170d3a06acd302d7c7fd85210785801aa916026d4d42e8601f8ea01c43fd5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"魯明哲","委員發言時間":"11:00:39 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HOUSING）還有財訊，談的都是你們土地的開發。我就想請教一下，因為你們去年有一個專案，先估一下，處理這4塊地，我就不一一唸了，包括臺北2塊，預估市價100億、20億，這樣131億，還有基隆光明街的35億，然後再來高雄自立路39億，加起來兩百多億，目前的進度如何？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，臺北安東街的這一個案子今年會推出，光明街也會，塔城街這個案子因為附近有住戶，所以我們現在還在評估要用什麼……"],["魯委員明哲：你這個還是用上網招標比價的方式嗎？"],["杜董事長微：會。"],["魯委員明哲：還是一樣嘛！"],["杜董事長微：對。"],["魯委員明哲：那搞不好會標很高。我也看到你有承諾說大概115年希望能夠打平，然後幾年之後能夠轉虧為盈，如果在你目前規劃之下，每一年平均要賣地多少億？就是在土地資產處分之下有多少？票統另外說了，你現在規劃要轉虧為盈，土地的處理大概要出來多少資金？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，剛剛委員講的，我們沒有賣地啦！我們只是把資產活化而已。"],["魯委員明哲：是，那收入大概多少？要達到多少收入？"],["杜董事長微：我們預估現金流大概115年的時候可以轉正。"],["魯委員明哲：好，沒關係，因為那時候我們再等著看啦，你就是收入的結構嘛！最後我再1分鐘，因為現在我們主力EMU3000城際列車上路了，大家都非常非常期待啦，我也首先要給你們一個掌聲，就是在外觀設計，這個車型得到日本GOOD DESIGN AWARD，這個獎項是不簡單的，大概跟紅點的等級滿類似的，所以這不簡單，這是你們自己設計還是日本設計的？"],["杜董事長微：這個是日本那邊的設計，但是我們有全程參與，做一個修改……"],["魯委員明哲：好，看到這個，在臺灣能夠坐到這樣的車，我們是很感動、很感謝，感動到什麼地步呢？每次上車，上到你們車上，我看到很多人都下跪在那邊，幹什麼？這麼感動嗎？得到日本的獎。原來要插個電，沒有跪下去找不到，我的天啊！大家都在跪啊！我不知道為什麼會這樣設計，這麼低級，這麼低級你知道嗎？真的，我們那天去花蓮，兩個人跪在地下，就找這個孔，因為它藏在椅子的正下方，我跟你講，全世界唯一設計是這樣的，到底為什麼會這樣設計？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，這個插孔因為是手機或者是筆電要充電，它都會有連線，我們在設計之初是怕這個連線在旅客出入座位的時候會有所妨礙……"],["魯委員明哲：是。"],["杜董事長微：所以才把它設置在比較隱密的地方，但這個我們有在研議……"],["魯委員明哲：我跟你講，現在很多公共運輸，不管是飛機，包括像高鐵都有啦，像你這麼聰明的設計，它有延長線，可是怎麼插進去、線在哪裡？我跟你講，你下次辦一個比賽，一個人坐一個位置，最快的給他……這個太低級了，你上次跟我講說因為美學設計，是不是專家跟你建議的？"],["杜董事長微：也有。"],["魯委員明哲：所以這種專家以後不能請啊！名字公布一下，不是，這太低級了，不要說我，所有的公共……交通也好、公共的領域，你怎麼可以這樣？而且我們現在用火車的，至少一半是高齡者，上去沒有跪著找不到這個部分，我覺得太低級了，我覺得太低級了，真的有機會要改善一下，謝謝。"],["杜董事長微：是，我們來改善。"],["主席（陳委員雪生）：謝謝魯明哲委員的發言。","下一位請徐富癸委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-11","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃建賓","廖先翔","魯明哲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","何欣純","邱若華","王鴻薇","游顥","林德福","洪孟楷","黃國昌","林月琴","張啓楷","黃珊珊","黃仁","許智傑","陳冠廷"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.9372187499999995,"end":8.40096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.738468750000003,"end":9.36284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":9.700343750000002,"end":10.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.392218750000001,"end":11.10096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.40471875,"end":11.860343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":16.21409375,"end":18.03659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.656593750000003,"end":21.85034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":22.457843750000002,"end":29.089718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.410343750000003,"end":31.16534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":31.199093750000003,"end":32.95409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":33.12284375,"end":37.814093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.26971875,"end":41.02034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.23971875,"end":45.205343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":45.64409375,"end":47.26409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.85471875,"end":57.03471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":57.57471875,"end":58.19909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":58.283468750000004,"end":60.12284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":60.375968750000006,"end":62.19846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.24909375,"end":62.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.35034375,"end":63.531593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":64.13909375,"end":65.74221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.43409375,"end":74.82096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":75.24284375,"end":76.87971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.53784375000001,"end":77.90909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":78.56721875000001,"end":79.68096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":80.08596875,"end":84.11909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":85.38471875,"end":88.18596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":88.72596875,"end":92.03346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":92.32034375,"end":94.48034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":94.93596875,"end":97.93971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":97.99034375000001,"end":101.58471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":102.17534375000001,"end":119.21909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":119.55659375,"end":121.00784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":121.32846875000001,"end":122.44221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":123.03284375000001,"end":127.84221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":128.53409375,"end":129.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":130.57596875000002,"end":132.95534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":133.42784375000002,"end":134.76096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":135.09846875,"end":137.19096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":137.30909375000002,"end":138.81096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":139.36784375000002,"end":140.04284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.26221875000002,"end":140.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":140.85284375,"end":141.79784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.25346875,"end":142.54034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.82721875000001,"end":144.14346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":144.56534375,"end":145.51034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.01659375,"end":146.25284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.62409375000001,"end":147.83909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":148.19346875000002,"end":155.23034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":155.48346875000001,"end":156.51284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":156.83346875,"end":157.74471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":157.82909375,"end":159.24659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":160.03971875000002,"end":163.88721875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.66346875000002,"end":167.05971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","sta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看到這個我們真的在台灣能夠做到這樣的車我們是很感動很感謝感動到什麼地步呢每次上車啊"},{"start":453.615,"end":459.887,"text":"上到你們車上咧我看到很多人都下跪在那邊我幹什麼這麼感動嗎得到日本的獎原來"},{"start":461.284,"end":485.59,"text":"要擦個墊沒有跪下去掃不到我的天啊大家在跪啊在你你我不知道為什麼會這樣的設計這麼低級啊這麼低級你知道嗎真的我我們那句話連兩個兩個跪在跪在地下就找這個孔啊因為在藏在椅子的正下方我跟你講全世界唯一設計是這樣的到底為什麼會這樣設計"},{"start":487.986,"end":501.734,"text":"這個委員報告就是這個插孔因為它是手機或者是筆電要充電它都會有連線那我們在設計之初是怕這個連線在旅客出入座位的時候會有所妨礙"},{"start":503.18,"end":531.16,"text":"是那所以才把他設置在比較隱密但這個我們有在研議我跟你講現在很多公共運輸不管是飛機包括像有些高鐵他都有啦像這麼聰明的設計他有延長線可是怎麼插進去現在哪裡我跟你講你下次辦一個比賽一個人坐一個位置最快的給他不過這個太低級了你上次跟我講說因為美學設計是不是專家跟你建議了"},{"start":532.524,"end":532.864,"text":"魯明哲委員"}]}},{"id":"152206","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152206","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a6859218fa421beec0702d7c7fd85210785801aa916026d4d420b5d81e613a05ff05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李昆澤","委員發言時間":"10:51:51 - 11:00:26","影片長度":"00:08:35","會議時間":"2024-05-06T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-11"},"duration":515,"end_time":"2024-05-06T11:00:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T10:51:51+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":220,"blocks":[["李委員昆澤：（10時51分）謝謝召委，請林國成召委請杜微董事長、還有胡湘麟次長。"],["主席（林委員國成代）：請次長，還有我們董事長。"],["李委員昆澤：次長好、董事長好。關於臺鐵票價的調整，當然是社會已經討論很久的一個議題，其實我認為臺鐵票價的調整與否，的確有它討論的空間，但是目前臺鐵所提出的調漲理由都太單薄了，就是說因為29年沒有調整，或者是經營的成本等等，我們對於調整，要人民多交一塊錢，都要以最嚴謹的態度來做說明，就算只調整一塊錢，這都是很嚴肅的事情。對於臺鐵，我認為在討論調整票價與否之前，你必須要清楚地跟民眾說明你們的安全、你們的服務、你們的準點要做到什麼程度，預計要做到什麼程度。當然這幾年你們對於相關的服務，你們花了很多的錢買新車，你們大概花了將近1,000億買EMU900型跟EMU3000型，車輛其實幾乎都已經到了，EMU900大概520輛都已經到了？"],["杜董事長微：都到了。"],["李委員昆澤：那EMU3000預計來600輛，564輛也已經到了？"],["杜董事長微：對，今年8月會到。"],["李委員昆澤：今年8月就會到齊。除了買新車，你們也花了很多的錢去改善安全，你們的六年行車安全改善計畫、電務智慧化的提升計畫，以及小半徑彎曲的改善計畫，以及軌道結構安全的改善計畫，加起來都超過800億耶！但是對於安全，你們要給旅客怎樣的標準，我們來看你們的安全，以2024年1到3月來看，你們的正線出軌還有一件耶！杜董事長，你們1至3月的事故也高達18件，2023年全年有41件，今年1至3月現在就已經18件。你們如果跟民眾說臺鐵的安全一定是以最高的標準來要求，這樣你跟人家說要漲價，人家才聽得下去。第二個，我們來看相關這些邊坡落石的告警，這個是當初我的建議，也謝謝臺鐵有逐步地在落實，這次的地震也有部分發揮它應該有的功能，這個都要趕快去做好。在明年中之前，相關的落石告警還有38處要完成，是不是？能不能完成？"],["杜董事長微：可以，在明年6月都會完成。"],["李委員昆澤：好。另外，運安會2024年的年度運輸安全改善建議評估報告，臺鐵改善的結案率只有67%，還有三成以上都沒有完成，這個要去落實，也要提升啊！杜董事長，你們都要去加強。"],["杜董事長微：是，這個我們會來加強。"],["李委員昆澤：要做到安全才來跟民眾講調整票價的議題。另外就是對於服務，你們現在有買很多新車，要趕快的上線，尤其是花東，現在EMU3000上線，它的座位比較多，所以一位難求的狀況會逐步地改善，這個要趕快去加強相關的服務。另外就是準點率了，臺鐵號稱準點率有上升，2021年準點率是92.81%，2023年準點率是95.98%，你們的準點率是不超過5分鐘，是不是？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["李委員昆澤：日本是1分鐘，日本1分鐘的準點率跟我們差不多耶！我們是5分鐘耶！這個還要再更精準地去做提升。實際上我們看到誤點的車次其實沒有明顯減少，你認為準點率有提升，但是誤點車次沒有明顯減少，就是說誤點的時間反而明顯的增長，你現在說你的準點率有提升，但是你的誤點時間明顯增長，你看2021年平均延誤時間是19.6分，2023年平均延誤時間提升至21.27分，這個都要去改善。而且2024年1到2月總共有5萬3,305個車次，延誤1到5分有8,699列，延誤6到44分有2,011列，延誤45分以上有73列，你都在延誤，準點率那麼差，你要怎麼跟人家說要漲票價？","另外，對於臺鐵相關的安全，你看列車誤點的因素統計，天然災變、號誌故障、車輛故障、ATP的故障、平交道、外物入侵等等，這些故障的類型就占了45%以上，董事長，臺鐵要永續經營，安全必須要提升、服務必須要提升、準點必須要提升，你們才有資格跟人民說需要漲價，不能單單說票價很久沒漲了，我們要調整，或是成本的問題，你們要換另外一個角度，跟民眾說你們的安全要做到什麼程度、服務要做到什麼程度、新車進來怎樣的增加幾個座位、服務的狀況以及準點要提升到怎樣的標準，我們在討論票價調整的時候，必須將安全、服務、準點提出來跟民眾做說明。","另外一個問題就是說，現在大家都在討論你們說要漲價，北高漲完等於跟搭高鐵差不多，會不會反而對你們的運輸會有衝擊跟影響，說明一下。"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，我們對整個研究會有一些細部的調整，像剛剛講北高，我們應該就會去研議，看是不是用遞遠遞減的方式讓票價能夠更合理，相關的這些研議我們現在還在進行。"],["李委員昆澤：現在大家也在猜測，例如北高臺鐵的票價會漲到1,144或者是到1,219，那原本現在是843，你要調整到1,144或者是到1,219，其實大家覺得搭高鐵就好啦！因為高鐵的票價是1,490，這個會不會衝擊到，真的要去好好地思考。"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["李委員昆澤：我還是認為臺鐵要永續經營，臺鐵的安全或者是服務、準點都要提升之外，當然票價的調整，我想民眾是認為已經有討論的空間，但是你們要討論票價的調整，必須要清楚地跟民眾說安全會到達什麼程度、相關的事故會降低到多少以下，或者是你們的服務、你們的新車、你們的座位提升多少，服務的品質提升多少，相關的準點要提升到怎樣的層次，這個都必須要明確跟民眾說明。"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["李委員昆澤：這個真的是一個很嚴肅的議題，就算給民眾漲1塊錢都是很嚴肅的議題，都要清楚地說明，以上。"],["主席：好，謝謝李昆澤委員。","好，現在請魯明哲委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-11","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃建賓","廖先翔","魯明哲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","何欣純","邱若華","王鴻薇","游顥","林德福","洪孟楷","黃國昌","林月琴","張啓楷","黃珊珊","黃仁","許智傑","陳冠廷"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":0.047843750000000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.63846875,"end":2.29221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.69721875,"end":10.695968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":10.746593750000002,"end":13.007843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":18.89721875,"end":21.816593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":22.15409375,"end":25.883468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":26.11971875,"end":29.832218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.08534375,"end":42.96096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.55159375,"end":43.68659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":43.90596875,"end":62.33346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.126593750000005,"end":70.65284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.12534375,"end":72.45846875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.99846875,"end":74.24721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.66909375,"end":86.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.93721875,"end":89.36721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.53596875000001,"end":101.12909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":101.12909375000001,"end":101.58471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.58471875000001,"end":107.96346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":107.96346875,"end":109.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.02659375,"end":112.46909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":112.77284375,"end":125.19284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":125.54721875000001,"end":128.51721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":128.88846875000002,"end":131.77409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.33096875,"end":134.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":135.18284375000002,"end":135.79034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","sta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是不是是日本是1分鐘日本的1分鐘也準點率跟我們差不多"},{"start":266.188,"end":279.198,"text":"我們是五分鐘這個還要再更精準的去做提升但是實際上我們看到霧點的車次其實沒有明顯減少你認為說準點率有提升但是霧點車次"},{"start":281.667,"end":295.75,"text":"沒有明顯清楚就是說誤點的時間反而明顯的增長你現在說你準點率有提升但是你的誤點時間明顯增長你看2021年平均延誤時間是19分間19.6年那2023年平均延誤時間是提升到21.27年這個都要去改善而且2024年1到2月"},{"start":307.393,"end":318.162,"text":"總共有5萬3305個車次延誤1到5分有8699列延誤6到44分有2011列延誤45分以上有73列你都在延誤準點差點要跟人家說去票價另外我們這個台鐵相關的安全你看我們的這個列車霧點的因素的統計"},{"start":337.711,"end":347.298,"text":"天然災變、耗資故障、車輛故障、ATP故障、平交道、外屋入侵等等這些故障的類型就佔45%以上"},{"start":350.199,"end":375.531,"text":"董事長 台鐵要永續經營 安全必須要提升服務必須要提升 準點必須要提升我們才有資格跟人民說 這個需要漲價不能單單以說 票價很久沒漲了我們要調整或成本的問題我們要換另外一個角度 跟民眾說 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10:43:57","影片長度":"00:05:59","會議時間":"2024-05-06T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-11"},"duration":359,"end_time":"2024-05-06T10:43:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T10:37:58+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":153,"blocks":[["廖委員先翔：（10時38分）謝謝主席。麻煩邀請次長還有董事長。"],["主席：次長、董事長。"],["胡次長湘麟：委員你好。"],["廖委員先翔：先跟次長還有董事長報告一下，其實我的選區有十多個火車站，所以我特別關心臺鐵的議題。如果以通勤上班族來講，在合理的票價之下，上班族更在乎的應該是搭乘的體驗，體驗包括準點率以及班次有沒有符合需求，這兩個相對於都會區來講是更為重要的。在準點率方面，我們看臺鐵的報告，因為長期以來大家都是比較負面的印象，這應該不用去否認，根據你們的報告，去年的時候準點率是到96%，我先確認一下，你們準點率是如何定義的，以及這幾年有沒有做過調整？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，我們準點率的定義就是列車到終點站晚分超過5分鐘，這個列車就算是……"],["廖委員先翔：所以是以終點站來當標準嘛？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["廖委員先翔：那5分這個東西有沒有調整過？"],["杜董事長微：有一段時間沒有調整了。"],["廖委員先翔：很多年了？"],["杜董事長微：這是國際標準。"],["廖委員先翔：大概從民國幾年開始，有印象嗎？"],["杜董事長微：這個我要查一下。"],["廖委員先翔：好，沒關係，反正這幾年就是5分鐘，我們的標準就是到最後一站的5分鐘。因為我們的列車有些還滿長的，中間的誤點，如果每一站都誤點，但到了最後一站開到5分鐘內就不算誤點了，這樣子的標準好像跟民眾實際上的感受會有很大的落差。也就是說，雖然臺鐵公司的準點率到了96%，但這個96%是到了最後一站，可能是最後你們加速ㄍ一ㄥ一下，還是催一下油門，過了都會區，後面就縮減時間，但是在比較需要的密集都會區、大家搭乘最多的地方，你可能還是有一些誤點的情況，也就是說，可能還會產生民眾的感受跟臺鐵產生出來的數據有一些落差，我是期待之後在準點率上面的要求，你們不要只要求到終點站，而是各站之間應該都要有一個明確的規範當標準，這點可以嗎？後續可以在統計上面把各站也都納進去嗎？"],["杜董事長微：是，跟委員報告，其實我們鐵路行車是很嚴謹的規定，如果前面晚了5分鐘，要在最後一個站趕5分鐘回來，這是不太可能的。但是剛剛委員提及……"],["廖委員先翔：你前段、後段啊，對不對？我不是真的講一個站，而是指過了密集區，客人比較少之後，你們一開門就馬上關門之類的，我們基層會有這樣子的壓力嘛！"],["杜董事長微：是，所以跟委員報告，這個部分我們會特別注意，我們在沿途各站每一列車的準點管控，我們會來注意。"],["廖委員先翔：後續相關誤點的統計資料可以把各站也都納進去嗎？"],["杜董事長微：這個要研議。"],["廖委員先翔：這可能才會比較切身的符合民眾對臺鐵誤點有沒有改善的感受。"],["杜董事長微：我們來研議。"],["廖委員先翔：好不好？你要說服民眾，就是我們自己的數據要能夠取信於眾。第二點就是班次密集度，很多臺灣人民都有到日本去坐大眾運輸的經驗，其實日本的大眾運輸跟我們臺灣一樣、跟臺鐵一樣，都會有不同的列車、不同的速度、不同的停靠站，但是為什麼日本包括JR等等的路線，它的班次密集度都是比我們臺鐵還高很多？我們臺鐵針對班次密集度上面的改善，這幾年有沒有什麼具體的作為？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，其實日本的鐵路，它的軌道也有比我們低的，也有比我們高的，主要的條件還是在於行車控制跟號誌系統。"],["廖委員先翔：是，那我們這幾年有沒有做一些具體的改善措施？"],["杜董事長微：有，我們也有在做這一方面的優化。"],["廖委員先翔：剛剛講的可能號誌的改善等等措施，我們有沒有訂定一個明確的期程？民國幾年的時候，有關號誌的改善措施完成之後，我們臺鐵的班次可以明顯提升？我們的目標？"],["杜董事長微：這個就是有跟委員報告，我們對於整個準點率，在每一年我們的KPI都會把這個……"],["廖委員先翔：對，這個是準點率，我講的是班次的部分。"],["杜董事長微：班次的密度是嗎？"],["廖委員先翔：是。"],["杜董事長微：班次的密度，這個要看剛剛報告的，我們對於號誌跟整個行控系統的改善。"],["廖委員先翔：對，目前有在改善了，對不對？有嗎？"],["杜董事長微：有。"],["廖委員先翔：總是有一個目標嘛！有一個目標年？"],["杜董事長微：是。"],["廖委員先翔：那這個目標年大概是民國幾年？"],["杜董事長微：有關於班次的改善要看我們實際號誌系統的進度。"],["廖委員先翔：我們總是會有一個目標，這個目標你應該不會講不出來吧？你說5年、10年、15年，總是有一個目標年。"],["杜董事長微：是、是、是，這個還是要看號誌系統的進度，我再跟委員報告，好嗎？"],["廖委員先翔：好。後續再提供給我們委員會資料。"],["杜董事長微：對。"],["廖委員先翔：謝謝董事長、謝謝次長、謝謝召委。"],["主席：好，謝謝廖先翔委員。","下一位請林國成委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-11","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃建賓","廖先翔","魯明哲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","何欣純","邱若華","王鴻薇","游顥","林德福","洪孟楷","黃國昌","林月琴","張啓楷","黃珊珊","黃仁","許智傑","陳冠廷"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.22471875,"end":6.17346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.0934687499999995,"end":5.684093750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.308468750000001,"end":7.06784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.25659375,"end":59.56596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.72909375,"end":15.25221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.586593750000006,"end":71.10846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":71.27721875,"end":80.32221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":74.73659375000001,"end":75.00659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":81.08159375000001,"end":81.63846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":82.26284375,"end":88.03409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":84.35534375,"end":85.01346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.46471875,"end":86.71784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":88.99596875,"end":89.58659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.05909375,"end":102.39471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.06971875,"end":107.99721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.26284375,"end":111.05159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.23721875000001,"end":136.17846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":136.53284375,"end":151.72034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":151.90596875,"end":168.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":168.44346875000002,"end":192.64221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":193.09784375,"end":210.05721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.43534375000002,"end":193.58721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":193.87409375000001,"end":195.12284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":211.57596875000002,"end":244.78596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":220.70534375000003,"end":221.17784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":244.92096875000001,"end":260.42909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":260.91846875000005,"end":307.18971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":269.13659375000003,"end":269.40659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":305.29971875,"end":30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麻煩邀請我們次長還有我們董事長先跟次長還有董事長報告一下其實我的選區有10多個火車站所以說我特別關心台鐵的議題那其實如果以上班族來講以通勤上班族來講在合理的票價之下"},{"start":30.365,"end":59.107,"text":"那上班族更在乎的應該是我們搭乘的一個體驗那體驗包括我們的準點率以及我們的班次有沒有符合需求這兩個相對於都會區來講是更為重要的那在準點率的方面那我們看台鐵的報告因為長期以來大家都是比較有負面的印象這應該不用去否認那在去年的時候準點率到了我們的報告是到96%那我先確認一下我們的準點率的定義是如何定義的以及這幾年有沒有做過調整"},{"start":62.728,"end":79.171,"text":"跟委員報告我們準點率的定義就是列車晚分到終點站晚分超過5分鐘那就是這個列車就是算是所以是以終點站來當標準嗎那5分這個東西有沒有調整過有一段時間沒有調整過一段時間很多年國際標準大概從幾年明明過幾年"},{"start":89.042,"end":107.707,"text":"有印象嗎?沒有,這個我要查一下。好,沒關係,這只是5分鐘,那我們的標準就是到最後一站的5分鐘,那也就是說如果說到中間的許多,因為我們的列車都非常,有些還蠻長的嘛,中間的這個誤點,每一站如果每一站都誤點到了最後一站,"},{"start":109.455,"end":134.957,"text":"開到五分鐘內就不算誤點了那這樣子的一個標準好像就是跟民眾實際上的感受會有很大的落差也就是說我們台鐵公司雖然說我們的準點率到了96%但這個96%是到了最後一站最後一站可能是最後我們那個加速ㄍㄧㄥ一下還怎麼樣子的大家催一下油門後面這個過了渡費區這個大家說點時間但是可能在我們在比較需要密集的"},{"start":136.678,"end":161.713,"text":"都會區大家搭乘都是最多的地方你可能還是有一些顧點的情況那也就是說可能還會產生我們民眾的感受跟我們台鐵產生出來的一個數據那可能有一些落差那我也是期待說我們後來可能在準點率上面的要求我們期待不要只有要求到這個終點站了而是各站之間應該都要有一個明確的一個規範當標準"},{"start":163.934,"end":190.428,"text":"這點可以嗎或許可以在統計上面把各站這部分也都納進去嗎好是那各位委員報告齁其實我們鐵路行車齁我們是很嚴謹的一個規定的齁如果說前面晚了5分鐘說在最後一個站把他趕5分鐘回來這是不太可能的齁但是剛剛委員提及以前斷後斷啊對不對我是真的講一個站啦是指齁過了密集區嘛人人數比較少一開門就馬上關門是是之類的啦齁那我們"},{"start":193.149,"end":193.85,"text":"後續可以把相關誤點的統計資料把各站員都拉進去嗎?"},{"start":211.578,"end":212.439,"text":"第二點就是我們的班次密集度"},{"start":229.873,"end":244.13,"text":"那我想很多我們台灣同胞台灣的人民都有到日本去做一些大眾運輸那其實日本的大眾運輸跟我們台灣一樣跟台鐵一樣他都會有不同的一個列車"},{"start":245.411,"end":259.944,"text":"對不同的速度那不同的一個停靠站那但是為什麼台鐵日本的包括JR等等的路線他的班次密集度都是比我們台鐵還高很多那我們台鐵針對班次密集度上面的一個改善這集你們有什麼具體的作為"},{"start":261.426,"end":280.849,"text":"各位委員報告其實日本的鐵路它的軌道也有比我們低的也有比我們高的那主要的條件還是在於說行車控制跟耗資系統是那我們這幾年有沒有做一些具體的改善措施有有有我們也有在做這一方面的優化有"},{"start":281.089,"end":306.992,"text":"那剛剛講的這個可能耗資的改善等等的措施那我們有沒有訂定一個明確的期程我們民國幾年的時候我們耗資的改善措施完成之後我們台鐵的一個班次可以明顯的一個提升我們的目標這個就是有跟委員報告我們對於整個準點率在每一年我們的KPI都會把這個對這個是準點率我是講的是班次"},{"start":308.442,"end":328.181,"text":"班次的部分班次的一個密度是吧是班次的密度這個要看我們剛剛報告的我們對於耗資跟我們整個行控系統的改善對目前有在改善了嘛對不對有嗎有有那永總是有一個目標嘛有一個目標年是那這個目標年大概是民國幾年"},{"start":331.761,"end":354.854,"text":"這個有關於班次的改善這個要看我們實際耗資系統的一個進度我們總是有一個目標嘛這個目標你應該不會講不出來吧你說五年十年十五年總是有一個目標年嘛是是是 這個還是要看那個耗資系統的進度我再跟委員報告好嗎好 後續再提供我們委員會資料謝謝董事長 謝謝市長 謝謝召委好 謝謝廖先翔委員"}]}},{"id":"152231","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152231","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a6819799b5ffa3194eb02d7c7fd8521078531dedd6677c477371614a9641f3446d05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張啓楷","委員發言時間":"13:14:41 - 13:21:57","影片長度":"00:07:16","會議時間":"2024-05-06T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-11"},"duration":436,"end_time":"2024-05-06T13:21:57+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T13:14:41+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":694,"blocks":[["張委員啓楷：（13時14分）請部長和杜微杜董事長。"],["主席：好，杜董。"],["杜董事長微：委員好。"],["張委員啓楷：還有請次長，不好意思，次長跟杜董事長。","謝謝主席。次長和董事長，3月25日我就問你們部長說，臺鐵和高鐵漲價都是下半年的事嘛！他那天說是，大家在這邊都有聽到對不對？可是這幾天我看到網路上在傳520可能就要漲了。我剛剛有聽你們講了啦，所以今天就確定，不只520前後都不會漲，下半年才會討論這個案子，對不對？那我們比較具體化，來，我們具體化！","其實要漲價一定要經過你們提出票價合理化方案嘛！對不對？董事會通過，臺鐵方面也通過，才會送到交通部，交通部會召開費率審議會。請問目前為止到什麼進度？杜董事長，你們票價合理化方案送出來了嗎？還沒？"],["杜董事長微：沒有。"],["張委員啓楷：還沒哦？"],["杜董事長微：還沒有，我們……"],["張委員啓楷：所以今天已經很明確了，全民都可以安心。"],["杜董事長微：我們的經理部門還在研議。"],["張委員啓楷：今天全臺灣民眾都可以安心，從第一步都還沒踩出來嘛！對不對？臺鐵票價合理化方案還沒有出來，所以這是非常明確的，全民都可以放心了。","第二個我就要問了啊！大概預定什麼時候會送？下半年大概什麼時候？有確定嗎？"],["杜董事長微：跟委員報告，因為現在我們是公司，所以這個案子經理部門研議出來以後要董事會通過，我們董事會通過以後才能報部，所以確定的期程我現在沒有辦法……"],["張委員啓楷：我們問政是非常理性的，每一個步驟都很清楚，你第一步沒跨出去，我們清楚地跟大家講說你們沒跨出去，可是有跨出去、到哪一個時間點，我們都要非常明確。你們第一步現在沒跨嘛！就等……"],["杜董事長微：按照我們現在公司的運作還算上軌道，應該是下半年、差不多第3季以後。"],["張委員啓楷：下半年、第3季是什麼時候？"],["杜董事長微：9月。"],["張委員啓楷：好，記起來，9月會送。","照這樣說的話，很好啊！9月……"],["杜董事長微：報告委員，我是指董事會都通過。"],["張委員啓楷：喔！所以臺鐵董事會通過是9月的事情了啦！9月或者10月送到交通部嘛？好不好？今天說的這個時間點應該是最明確的。","談完這個時間，我們來談漲價的幅度。這個幅度很大耶！29年沒漲固然沒有錯，可是吃飯也要慢慢吃啊！像爬階梯一步一步上來啊！你們怎麼像沖天炮「砰」一下，29年沒調，一次就要調到位，而且你們現在提出3個案子，合理報酬率分別是3%、4%、5%，先balance就好了啊！可不可以慢慢來？可以嗎？這個幅度很嚇人耶！報酬率3%要漲到35.62%，4%要40.41%，5%要44.52%，太高了啦！可不可以低一點？幅度漲少一點！"],["胡次長湘麟：報告委員，我前面跟其他委員回答的是，這是我們試算過程中，把3%、4%、5%放進去計算可能的結果，但是最後的方案還沒有研擬，因為這些試算的結果還得考慮一些其他的條件……"],["張委員啓楷：對、對、對。"],["胡次長湘麟：所以這個還不算方案。"],["張委員啓楷：次長，所以你們現在用的3%、4%、5%，其中最低的是3%，其實3%也很高耶！這有兩個解決方式，第一個是從3%再降一點點，第二個就是分年分梯，就是我說的像爬樓梯，不要29年沒吃飯，一次吃那麼多，我跟你說，這樣會脹死！是不是這樣？我們以前讀書，杜甫是不是就這樣？好不好？可不可以不要像沖天炮那樣，29年沒漲，一下子全部都上來？分年分梯，考慮一下，好不好？"],["胡次長湘麟：好。"],["張委員啓楷：把這個納入一個很重要的考量。不然老實說，你看這個幅度喔！臺北到高雄的自強號如果一次要這樣漲，一下子要漲300塊，一般民眾聽到自強號一下子漲300塊也是很嚇人啊！而且漲完之後，我看其他同仁剛剛也在問，這樣已經接近高鐵的自由座的票價了耶！你這樣有競爭力嗎？杜董事長，這個都要考慮進去，好不好？第一個，不要一下子讓民眾覺得好像漲太多，第二個，也不要讓民眾覺得好像馬上跟高鐵一樣，這樣可能競爭力也會有問題。","另外，我問一個高鐵的事情，政府是高鐵的最大股東，高鐵票價下半年也會漲嗎？"],["胡次長湘麟：今年沒有提到任何票價要漲的……"],["張委員啓楷：好，這也是個好消息。高鐵沒有要漲喔！此話當真？次長。"],["胡次長湘麟：我們到現在為止，沒有收到任何有關高鐵票價要漲的訊息。"],["張委員啓楷：OK，所以很有可能下半年也不見得會漲。","我們最後來談一個比較對物價的影響的問題。大家看我這個圖，這對政府跟人民來說其實很重要，臺鐵29年沒有漲，大家不會說不合理到叫它不要漲，可是你要注意那個時間點，不要造成雙颱效應。因為老實說，只要電價漲完之後，任何的漲價都會變成雙颱效應，尤其大眾運輸又很重要，臺鐵如果再加進來就變成漲價火車頭了耶。","你看這個圖，我剛剛講了，左邊這個漲電價，通勤交通的這個價格如果一漲的話，那就非常不得了了。然後現在更嚴重了，我們臺灣最近開始通膨了，物價已經上漲了，對不對？實質的薪資還倒退，這四個東西加在一起對臺灣的發展是不好的。既然是國營事業，我們人在公門好修行嘛！我們要做好事情對不對？所以一定要注意。一個就是我剛剛講的，不要沖天炮，要分梯來、慢慢來，我們有可以解決的方式。","第二，還有一個解決的方案，時間點往後一點點。有兩個很重要的，我要提醒大家，第一個，雖然4月1號就漲了電價對不對？可是你什麼時候會收到帳單（電費單）？6月嘛！第二個，還有一個更嚴重的喔！6、7、8、9夏季電價都來了，對不對？所以我拜託一下，臺鐵真的要調價，就像我剛才講的，至少、至少一定要在10月以後才開始討論，好不好？如果可以，10月開始討論，就是剛才講的9月送，10月才開始討論，避開剛剛講到電費的漲價，然後最好、最好是明年再漲。","今天我們的主席講了2次很英明的話，陳雪生說不要雪上加霜，好不好？不要雪上加霜。"],["主席：謝謝啦、謝謝啦！"],["張委員啓楷：所以拜託一下，我們也跟主席講的一樣，不要雪上加霜，不要讓雙颱效應聚在一起，不然對人民衝擊太大，儘可能10月以後，甚至可能的話，延到明年好不好？一起來努力好不好？好，謝謝次長，也謝謝董事長。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員。"],["張委員啓楷：謝謝不要雪上加霜的主席，感謝、謝謝大家。"],["主席：謝謝張啓楷委員的發言。","下面請顏寬恒委員發言，顏寬恒、顏寬恒，不在。","賴士葆委員發言，賴士葆、賴士葆，不在。","陳培瑜委員發言，陳培瑜、陳培瑜，不在。","陳俊宇委員發言，陳俊宇、陳俊宇，不在。","登記質詢委員均已發言完畢，作以下的決定：一、報告及詢答完畢；二、委員黃珊珊、黃仁、黃建賓、許智傑、陳冠廷所提書面質詢列入紀錄並刊登公報；三、委員於質詢中要求提供相關書面諮詢或未及答復部分，請交通部儘速以書面答復。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-11","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃建賓","廖先翔","魯明哲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","何欣純","邱若華","王鴻薇","游顥","林德福","洪孟楷","黃國昌","林月琴","張啓楷","黃珊珊","黃仁","許智傑","陳冠廷"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.042843750000001,"end":6.98346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":7.03409375,"end":7.793468750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.05409375,"end":14.10471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.10471875,"end":14.509718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.509718750000001,"end":14.52659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.825968750000001,"end":18.93096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":24.07784375,"end":32.70096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.852843750000005,"end":35.384093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.63721875,"end":40.19346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.564718750000004,"end":44.07471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.47971875,"end":47.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.60159375,"end":48.93471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.59284375,"end":55.36409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":55.81971875,"end":58.82346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.329718750000005,"end":61.67534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.92846875,"end":62.87346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":63.51471875000001,"end":64.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":64.84784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陳局長"},{"start":25.379,"end":41.27,"text":"目前各項法規以基本法為最上位的架構的話都要以人本交通跟我們的用戶安全來作為最高原則來進行各項法規的調修工作可是現在不知道各部的相關的法規的進度跟方向"},{"start":42.051,"end":42.732,"text":"針對於行人安全的保護"},{"start":58.288,"end":76.064,"text":"今天納上我們的國際媒體裡邊講說我們事實上是行人地獄的時候可是目前看起來在目前國內的道路二法我們的市區道路條例跟其工程的設計標準或是公路法的相關規定當中都有要求人行道的一個設置"},{"start":77.445,"end":78.305,"text":"所以再看﹖"},{"start":104.051,"end":105.432,"text":"張安化三姐弟的入口發生案發的地點"},{"start":121.909,"end":122.369,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":136.664,"end":136.844,"text":"李慧琼議員"},{"start":159.108,"end":173.876,"text":"這麼快速當然我們去肯認這個快速可是這邊我要提醒的是正如我前面所提的這類型的孤兒道路改善原則上我建議未來都應該以減少衝突點作為核心原則看到左手邊就可以知道有16個衝突點"},{"start":175.757,"end":191.981,"text":"那可是如果採行是MUT的做法的話相當可行可是並沒有這樣採用因為你沒有諮詢到更多的專家學者來採用這種方法雖然這個案子你現在完成了不過我還是要建議未來交通部是不是應該在改善方案當中參採更多的專業意見"},{"start":194.222,"end":204.51,"text":"而不是做了下一次事情又再發生那到底我們有多少人命可以來買單咧那反而你這麼匆忙當中沒有完備的話那基本上沒有辦法解決問題"},{"start":208.264,"end":230.67,"text":"整個端基本的法規規定裡邊整個要調合法規來提升我們的車輛安全所以過去我們的車輛的形式的調合當中N類跟O類一直以來都是用UNECE來做同步可是在L類似乎看起來都存在很多缺口下一頁"},{"start":232.55,"end":249.474,"text":"L4 L6 L7就是不是在你的調和範圍內所以你排除L4 L6 L7的一個車型所以會影響國內的民眾權益像L4我一直長期關心兒少安全他用於承載兒童而且他安全性由於現在交通部在討論的用機車兒童機車作業"},{"start":252.935,"end":256.378,"text":"所以在這邊我就主張是不是中央道路主管機關應該儘速一元化重新打造合理的各級"},{"start":270.51,"end":291.907,"text":"道路的法制還有針對我們交通工程的改善是不是要減少衝突點像比如MUT的做法還有車輛的形式是不是禁訴跟國際法規接軌來提供國內民眾使用安全的車輛我不知道這三點局長這邊最後是不是給我一個答覆那如果不行的話是不是在一個月內提出具體的回覆"},{"start":292.387,"end":318.156,"text":"是跟委員報告就是說整個的像公路系統部分的話目前在公路法58條就是說進入到市區道路的話相關的人行道的一些設計標準都是要比照市區道路那另外在路段外的如果是非非都區域的話其實我們公路本身其實也在檢討整整體的斷面比如說有一些的空間路間可以說的話其實我們就可以來偵測人行道所以我想"},{"start":318.876,"end":319.537,"text":"尤其彰化那件事情"},{"start":343.277,"end":343.717,"text":"瞭解 瞭解"},{"start":374.541,"end":376.127,"text":"好,謝謝林月琴委員發言"}]}},{"id":"152229","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152229","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a682f8575831cdcbf3702d7c7fd8521078531dedd6677c477378c09dfcc218e895f5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"黃國昌","委員發言時間":"12:59:20 - 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你好政治好 董事長針對台鐵需要的資源去讓這個列車更安全我向來都是非常支持的但是從之前我就發現台鐵不要花一堆錢去做沒有效果的東西我舉一個具體的例子當初"},{"start":41.874,"end":56.331,"text":"普悠瑪的悲劇發生了以後我後來發現我們的後勤次元管理系統搞得亂七八糟的我當時沒有說錯花了快3億嘛耗費了6年多嘛結果一事無成現在在訴訟"},{"start":57.512,"end":86.007,"text":"董事長我的理解沒有錯吧記取之前的教訓我上一次運安會來的時候我就在請教運安會說台鐵去跟政府申請了六千萬這六千萬搞列控4.0到底做出來什麼東西因為這個計畫從一開始的時候從天而降跟台鐵既有的系統根本沒有辦法match"},{"start":86.647,"end":115.09,"text":"沒有辦法銜接所以我就一直去追這一個列控4.0到底從什麼地方而來的結果找了一個亂七八糟的廠商去詐騙他自己在美國得獎的經驗結果後來發現他根本就沒有參與美國的那個自駕車的系統拿假的理律來台灣騙拿到獎了以後結果我們政府一堆補助就給他們"},{"start":115.891,"end":138.513,"text":"我上一次請教運安會的時候運安會給我的結論是這個系統根本沒有辦法用董事長這樣不贊成不贊成所以你認為可以用跟委員報告是他裡面驗證的東西是經過驗證的是可以的但是也要跟委員說實話"},{"start":140.194,"end":154.733,"text":"他裡面有一些驗證完成的東西因為台鐵很大如果台鐵要全盤來接收的話那個成本會很高現在一個最關鍵的問題這個計畫台鐵還要不要再丟錢下去繼續做"},{"start":158.67,"end":183.478,"text":"這個我們要研議就是要研議多久我們預計是要一年來我們繼續再往下看因為我聽到的是在2023年去年1月的時候這個情況視點裡到運安會討論的研討會我聽到的狀況是砲聲隆隆從他的專業性可行性安全性一堆批評全部都出來"},{"start":184.946,"end":210.54,"text":"如果今天花錢做的東西是對於台鐵的安全性真的有幫助而且跟既有的系統可以銜接我相信納稅人會支持但是如果是跟以前的我剛剛所舉的那個例子後勤資源管理系統一樣花了快3億搞了6年多一事無成最後現在進行訴訟監察院也糾正了那又怎麼樣"},{"start":211.621,"end":238.407,"text":"浪費了錢丟到水裡面去全部都追不回來了吧我那天在運安會研討會的時候因為我看到這個狀況所以我就非常有興趣我就去跟運安會要了那一天開研討會的時候的會議記錄我看了會議記錄運安會裡面有非常多的委員提出非常專業的質疑但是我在會議記錄裡面完全沒有看到台鐵有答覆所以我趁今天質詢的時間來請教一下"},{"start":240.808,"end":252.489,"text":"列控4.0的計畫是台鐵內部經過專業評估而提出來的還是外面上面有大官由上而下丟下來要求台鐵執行的"},{"start":253.68,"end":277.754,"text":"跟委員報告齁這個列控4.0的他是一個POC的一個計畫是請你針對問題回答就好是是所以他在提出的時候我們有針對誰在提出的時候就是我們當時是台鐵局是台鐵局自己提的嗎希望爭取預算來做這個POC是台鐵局自己提的嗎"},{"start":280.243,"end":303.317,"text":"這個是台鐵局提的阿對阿你一開始的時候你為什麼會提這個計畫這個是我的問題嘛這也是運安會委員的問題嘛所以他的問題是說你們是台鐵內部經過專業評估自己提出來的計畫還是外面有人丟進來要求台鐵去做的事情這個應該是台鐵局自己內部做了評估以後認為說來我們繼續看下去齁"},{"start":305.999,"end":322.424,"text":"媒體有報導張景生要求交通部台鐵局在3年內完成200億的全台列控4.0計畫然後呢在那一天研討會的時候台鐵提了一個報告這個報告我去拿來看了"},{"start":323.393,"end":335.14,"text":"在23頁裡面說交通部胡政務次長要台鐵盡快完成列控4.0的後續服務驗證以及商業驗證計畫來請教一下胡次長 真的嗎"},{"start":340.618,"end":367.159,"text":"你有做這樣的要求嗎我當時是有提這件事情因為我所了解他們提出來的計畫必須要完成這個螢幕上所談的後續的這些相關的商業驗證所以我要求他們儘快要完成這個好那這個計畫做出來的列控4.0跟台鐵目前所在推的第三代第三代CTS的計畫是可以相match的嗎"},{"start":371.733,"end":373.816,"text":"這兩部分還沒有完全去確認那我覺得問題就來了"},{"start":384.71,"end":399.428,"text":"你現在應該聽得懂為什麼開始在擔心這件事嗎?如果連這件事情都還沒有確認我們就先設建再畫吧三年內要完成200億的全台列控4.0計畫我看到這個啦我其實有點驚訝"},{"start":400.689,"end":423.742,"text":"因為如果是外部的政治力介入為了特定廠商的利益政治力介入去講這種外行的話我雖然不贊成但我可以理解為什麼會發生這樣的事情但我對胡市長的認識是您是一個非常專業的老交通人這兩個還沒有match的情況之下就提這樣子的要求您覺得真的適合嗎"},{"start":426.394,"end":437.27,"text":"我剛我前來提這個要求是當初在列控4.0他應該要完成的這些程序他後面兩次還沒有是針對這件事情你照不贊成再丟200億下去繼續做"},{"start":440.461,"end":458.653,"text":"這要經過審慎評估來 董事長接下來會丟200億下去繼續做嗎這要評估 報告委員我剛剛有講一年再加上另外半年的一個我們的一個陳報的時間這真的是要經過評估好 我希望台鐵齁好好評估喔"},{"start":460.094,"end":484.139,"text":"本於專業啊進行評估啊我的預測啦你們評估一年完以後我自己的預測依照我目前掌握到所有的訊息這個計畫一定無疾而終這個計畫一定無疾而終因為跟你現有的系統根本對接不起來嘛沒有關係我們繼續往下看但我只要求台鐵一件事情進行這件事情評估的時候請本於你們的專業立場"},{"start":485.984,"end":507.824,"text":"不要受到外面的政治力關大學問大帶著廠商莫名其妙的廠商回來就要台鐵拿錢去做這個跟既有的系統根本對接不上莫名其妙的東西請台鐵接下來等於你們的專業好好評估喔不要再繼續浪費錢去做一些沒有用的東西了好 謝謝謝謝黃國昌委員"}]}},{"id":"152228","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152228","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a68517c2f2455a4977e02d7c7fd85210785801aa916026d4d420236eefe79b9ad105ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"洪孟楷","委員發言時間":"12:52:01 - 12:59:07","影片長度":"00:07:06","會議時間":"2024-05-06T10:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議（事由：邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢。）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":11,"committees":[23],"id":"委員會-11-1-23-11"},"duration":426,"end_time":"2024-05-06T12:59:07+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T12:52:01+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":590,"blocks":[["洪委員孟楷：（12時52分）謝謝主席，麻煩請胡次長。"],["主席：胡次長請。"],["胡次長湘麟：委員您好。"],["洪委員孟楷：胡次長，今天應該很多委員都關心臺鐵漲價，本席也關心，尤其是民生的議題。另外看到17年沒有漲價的國道客運，交通部已經先核定了，是允許漲價，有補助三分之二的漲幅。所以請教，到目前為止有沒有收到相關國道業者的詢問或是方案？"],["胡次長湘麟：我請公路總局……"],["洪委員孟楷：簡單回復。"],["陳局長文瑞：是，跟委員報告，因為交通部是5月1日才核定，所以國道客運如果有要調整票價的話，它還要提報到各區監理所。不過我們基本上在短途的部分，TPASS已經有相關補助；中長途部分的話……"],["洪委員孟楷：中長途非TPASS月票的乘客，最高會補助三分之二嘛！"],["陳局長文瑞：三分之二，是。"],["洪委員孟楷：那我們預計匡列多少數額來補助？"],["陳局長文瑞：這個部分，基本上預估的運量，在我們公運的預算裡面足夠支應。"],["洪委員孟楷：有多少？"],["陳局長文瑞：還是要看它的運量，就是說……"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有錯，運量，但是你會說足夠代表你們一定有算過啊！"],["陳局長文瑞：是。因為今年他們提出來的，預估可能就是從5月之後，大概整個幾億元預算，我們大概有估算出來。"],["洪委員孟楷：幾億元？"],["陳局長文瑞：這個是不是我們再……"],["洪委員孟楷：這是機密嗎？現在民進黨政府主政之下，什麼都機密，這個不能問，是不是？"],["陳局長文瑞：不是，因為它其實跟相關的運量是有關係的。"],["洪委員孟楷：當然跟相關運量有關係，這也是本席今天討論的。","次長，有講到國道客運調整方案的話，北高票價最高是漲36塊，而今天討論到臺鐵29年凍漲告終，北高票價恐漲300塊，差了十倍。本席覺得，臺鐵也好，國道客運也好，這兩個都是非常重要的大眾運輸。為什麼？因為對於普羅大眾一般的民生來講，這兩個大眾運輸最多人使用，而且可能不分男女老少，收入比較低一點點、高一點的都會利用，對不對？現在國道客運最高漲36塊，可是臺鐵突然間跟我們講要漲300塊，也沒有任何補助措施，或者沒有任何的評估，這樣會不會造成民生的衝擊？國道客運可以編列幾億元來協助，抑制票價緩漲，本席沒有說不漲，如果油價等等上漲，你真的撐不下去，你該調整，不能苛刻或是不能壓榨國道客運嘛！不能壓榨駕駛員，本席同意啊！一樣的道理，為什麼臺鐵你就可以放任300塊、500塊這樣去喊？次長簡單說明一下，好不好？"],["胡次長湘麟：跟委員報告，媒體所報導、講出來的這些票價方案，並不是現在在討論中的這些方案，這個過去相關的資料，媒體取得……，我也必須承認，這是一部分在臺鐵公司試算的過程，但絕對不是現在在討論的方案。"],["洪委員孟楷：試算過程是提出報酬率3%、4%、5%三個方案嘛！所以媒體才會說，如果以5%的方案來比，北高的自強號票價會漲到快300元，所以這還是有所本啊！"],["胡次長湘麟：不是……"],["洪委員孟楷：你沒有最終定案，本席同意。你們自己內部的評估一定是有所本，而最終會落在什麼票價，不得而知，對不對？"],["胡次長湘麟：這個試算我們在討論過程之中，就是有討論到這些問題，所以這件事情在討論，我們部裡頭要求臺鐵公司一定要充分地考慮它自己的營運條件、市場狀況。以剛剛的臺北、高雄為例，它就沒有考慮到我們經常用的，票價是遞遠遞減，距離越長的話……，這個是沒有考慮過的。"],["洪委員孟楷：沒有考慮？"],["胡次長湘麟：所以我說這些是試算過程之中，某一些假設算出來的。"],["洪委員孟楷：好，這樣子能不能比較直接的假設，未來最終的方案北高調漲絕對會低於300元？"],["胡次長湘麟：我們還沒有收到數字，我現在不敢跟委員報告。"],["洪委員孟楷：所以有可能會高於300元囉？不是，你剛剛講的……本席接受你的解釋啊！第一，5%的推估，你說這個還沒有經過試算，又說它沒有考慮到越遠遞減，代表越遠、距離越拉長……北高算是最長的距離，相對來講要遞減嘛！所以說那個票價應該要低，不會是像現在媒體推估的5%，然後要300塊。是不是未來最終的方案，在這一波裡面不會高於300元？"],["胡次長湘麟：我只能跟委員報告，原來試算的過程沒有考慮這個，考慮後一定會比那個低。"],["洪委員孟楷：一定會比較低，但是低多少不確定？"],["胡次長湘麟：是不是低於300……"],["洪委員孟楷：什麼時候會出來？"],["胡次長湘麟：這個現在還不……我們下半年會提到交通部來討論。"],["洪委員孟楷：現任的部長把燙手山芋留給520，反正就是丟給新任部長來決定？沒有打算要幫新部長拆彈的意思？"],["胡次長湘麟：我們現在預定的期程是，下半年請臺鐵公司提出這個……"],["洪委員孟楷：下半年請臺鐵提出來。最後，次長，既然國道客運，我們可以用公務預算做一些補助，讓它漲的票價不至於太多，你說北高最多漲36，吸收三分之二。至於臺鐵相關部分，我覺得就是羊毛出在羊身上，對於一般的普羅大眾來講，對票價的反應其實是很敏感的，而且票價是民生相關的消費。大家都講萬物皆漲，唯有薪水不漲，在這一波的漲價裡面，是不是也要考慮到，如果說我們有些相關公務預算能夠支持的話，也應該要適時地支持。次長，這一點可以承諾嗎？"],["胡次長湘麟：這部分我們會併到將來的這個方案裡頭一併思考。"],["洪委員孟楷：不要讓國人覺得，一樣是大眾運輸工具，北高國道客運只有漲36，臺鐵一次要漲300，十倍的價差，我覺得這會讓國人覺得是大小眼，好不好？謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝洪孟楷委員發言。","下一位請黃國昌委員發言。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":108,"meet_id":"委員會-11-1-23-11","speakers":["陳雪生","林國成","林沛祥","李昆澤","黃建賓","廖先翔","魯明哲","徐富癸","蔡其昌","陳素月","林俊憲","黃健豪","何欣純","邱若華","王鴻薇","游顥","林德福","洪孟楷","黃國昌","林月琴","張啓楷","黃珊珊","黃仁","許智傑","陳冠廷"],"page_start":59,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00003"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期交通委員會第11次全體委員會議紀錄","content":"邀請交通部部長王國材「針對台鐵票價上漲暨列車準點率提升作為」進行專題報告，並備質詢","agenda_id":"1134101_00002"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":1.8534687500000002,"end":5.076593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":12.704093750000002,"end":13.868468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":14.340968750000002,"end":37.594718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.15159375,"end":38.16846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.16846875,"end":40.39596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":39.68721875,"end":41.22284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.22284375,"end":65.25284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":65.15159375,"end":74.39909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.51784375,"end":71.41221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.87159375,"end":85.89096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":85.43534375,"end":90.34596875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.44784375,"end":86.78534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":90.34596875000001,"end":91.47659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":90.90284375,"end":91.29096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":92.42159375,"end":109.02659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":108.46971875000001,"end":114.51096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.51096875,"end":119.67471875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":116.75534375000001,"end":116.82284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":119.25284375000001,"end":123.03284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":123.15096875,"end":123.80909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":124.07909375000001,"end":132.11159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":132.75284375,"end":139.40159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":140.02596875,"end":140.88659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":141.96659375000002,"end":143.95784375},{"speaker":"SPEAK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主席謝謝 麻煩請胡次長胡次長請"},{"start":14.426,"end":37.479,"text":"今天應該很多的委員都關心所謂的台鐵漲價本席也關心尤其是民生的議題那另外有看到說17年沒有漲價的國道客運交通部是已經先核定了是允許漲價那有補助所謂的三分之二的一個漲幅所以請教到目前為止有沒有收到相關國道客運業者的詢問或是方案"},{"start":38.208,"end":64.802,"text":"那個我請 簡單回復是是跟委員報告目前因為剛交通部是5月1號才核定所以我們就是會國道科學院如果說有要這個調整票價的話他還要提報到我們各區監理所那不過我們基本上就是說已經有這個短途的部分在TPS的部分已經有相關的一個補助了那這個中長途的部分的話那個"},{"start":65.722,"end":91.108,"text":"中長途非T-pass月票的乘客最高會補助三分之二嗎?那我們匡列了多少元額來去做補助?預計這個部分的話就是說基本上就是說我們預估的這個運量的話在我們的這個公運的預算裡面是足夠可以來支應的的多少啊?還是要看他的運量沒有錯運量但是你會說足夠那代表說你們一定有算過啊是啊"},{"start":92.968,"end":114.097,"text":"就是因為這個今年的大概就是說他們提出來的就是預估就是可能就是從5月5月之後的那大概就是說整個的一個就是幾億元的預算我們大概有估算出來啦幾億元這是機密嗎現在民進黨政府主政之下什麼都機密這個不能問是不是"},{"start":115.298,"end":134.831,"text":"就是因為他其實跟相關的運量是有關係的是當然跟相關運量有關係這也是本席今天在討論來 次長因為有講到說我們如果說國道客運調整方案的話北高票價最高是漲36塊那今天討論到台鐵29年動漲告終北高票價恐漲300塊差了10倍"},{"start":142.111,"end":169.482,"text":"本席也覺得 台鐵也好 國道客運也好這兩個都是非常重要的大眾運輸為什麼 因為對於普羅大眾一般的民生來講這兩個大眾運輸是最多人使用而且可能是不分男女老少或不分收入比較低一點點收入比較高一點點都會利用 對不對那你現在一個國道客運最高36塊可是台鐵突然間跟我們講說要漲300塊"},{"start":171.616,"end":179.487,"text":"那我們也沒有任何的補助措施或者是沒有任何的評估那這樣會不會造成民生的衝擊"},{"start":181.797,"end":205.823,"text":"國道客運可以編列幾億元來去協助不管是抑制這個票價還漲本席沒有說不漲如果說真的你油價等等上漲你真的撐不下去你該調整不能苛刻或是不能壓榨我們的國道客運嘛不能壓榨駕駛員本席同意啊那但一樣的道理啊為什麼你台鐵你就可以放任300塊500塊這樣去喊"},{"start":209.066,"end":230.842,"text":"市長簡單說明一下好不好跟委員報告媒體所報導的那些長出來的這些票價方案並不是現在在討論中的這些方案這個在過去相關的資料媒體取得我也必須承認這是一部分在台鐵公司試算過程但是絕對不是現在在討論的方案試算過程是提出報酬率3%、4%、5%三個方案嘛"},{"start":232.563,"end":237.551,"text":"所以媒體才會講說如果說以5%的方案來比的話北高的志強票志強號的票價會漲到快300元嗎"},{"start":241.041,"end":241.741,"text":"這個事順我們在討論過程之中就是有討論到這些問題所以"},{"start":262.908,"end":289.542,"text":"這件事情在討論我們部裡頭要求臺鐵公司一定要充分的去考慮一些其實他的自己的營運條件市場的狀況以剛剛臺北高雄為例他就沒有考慮到我們經常用的所謂這個這個票價是遞遠遞減距離越長這個是沒有考慮過的所以我說這些是試算過程之中某一些假設算出來那這樣子能不能"},{"start":290.242,"end":309.765,"text":"比較直接假設就是未來最終的方案絕對調漲北高會低於300元現在我們還沒有收到數字我現在不敢跟委員報告所以你有可能會高於300元喔不是你剛剛講的你剛剛本席接受你的解釋啊第一5%的推估"},{"start":310.785,"end":331.177,"text":"你說這個還沒有經過試算又說他沒有考慮到說越遠地減所以代表說越遠距離越拉長北高算是最長距離了嘛相對來講要地減嘛所以說那個票價應該要低嘛不會是像現在媒體推估的5%然後要300塊啊所以是不是未來最終方案在這一波裡面不會高於300元"},{"start":332.093,"end":356.99,"text":"我只能跟委員報告,原來試算的過程是沒有考慮,那考慮這個一定會比那個低一定會比較低,但低多少,不確定,什麼時候會出來這個現在還不,在我們下半年會提到交通部來考慮現任的部長探索3億就留給520,反正就丟給新任部長來決定沒有打算要幫新部長拆彈的意思"},{"start":357.992,"end":379.89,"text":"我們現在預定期程是下半年請台鐵公司提出來的這個報告下半年請台鐵提出來那最後啦 次長既然國道客運我們可以用公務預算也去做一些補助讓他的漲的票價不至於太多你說北高最多漲36吸收三分之二那台鐵相關部分我覺得羊毛出在羊身上"},{"start":380.871,"end":399.878,"text":"對於一般的普羅大眾來講票價的反應其實是很敏感而且票價連隨著就是民生的相關的一個消費大家都講萬物皆漲唯有薪水不漲在這一波的漲價裡面是不是也要考慮到如果說我們能夠有些相關公務預算能夠支持的話也應該要適時的支持市長這點可以承諾嗎"},{"start":401.731,"end":425.155,"text":"這部分我們變到原來的將來的這個方案裡頭一邊來思考是不要讓國人覺得一樣一樣是這個大眾運輸工具北高國道客運只有漲36台鐵一次要漲300十倍的價差我覺得這會讓國人覺得是說這是大小眼好不好謝謝好謝謝洪孟楷委員"}]}},{"id":"15883","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15883","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/8d241381c4f8c7fcd5d059b51b1cfc70ca3bf586b49d470b3be8d109af184be4bba4134dbbc117105ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-06","start_time":"2024-05-06T08:31:04+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-19"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-06T10:25:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":6836,"委員發言時間":"08:31:04 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討論後再進行逐條審查。"},{"start":1970.842,"end":1974.903,"text":"時間是3分鐘。好,謝謝主席。那今天我想民進黨所提的這個國會閹割法案還有民進黨這個今天的所有的一個程序內容我倒是有一個對民進黨的一個很重要的一個建議"},{"start":2001.025,"end":2029.796,"text":"為什麼呢?因為我非常喜歡引用民進黨過去的意識慣例。那先不講遠的啦,遠的民進黨什麼五分鐘停止討論,散會進覆惡毒,比比皆是,斑斑可考。那現在民進黨少數了,然後如果說今天提案停止討論,就是不民主。民進黨五分鐘停止討論就民主。國民黨今天覺得討論的差不多,停止討論就不民主。"},{"start":2030.782,"end":2059.069,"text":"然後民進黨過去想要表決的案子想要審的議案禁覆二讀已經變成一個立法院的常態在民進黨多數的時候國民黨禁覆二讀就是犯天條大罪一樁但是在這邊這些過去的種種就先當過去史但至少今天談到國會改革國民黨率先提出國會改革法案"},{"start":2060.271,"end":2086.987,"text":"幾乎是這一次的會期一開議我們就提出來了然後開議提出來之後也收到社會廣泛的針對國民黨提案的國會改革法案有很多的討論民進黨有很多的指教啦大體上就一直講說你的社會溝通不夠啊大家對你的了解不夠啊你的提案內容大家不清楚啊對不對那你這樣子討論的話是不是資訊不夠詳細啊"},{"start":2089.748,"end":2098.437,"text":"結果我們就有一位非常民主的吳宗憲召委擔任主席的時候民進黨的意見他非常尊重排了一場專報就針對國民黨的國會改革法案排一場專報開了一場公聽會還是不夠結果我們的民進黨要求加開公聽會"},{"start":2112.049,"end":2131.188,"text":"這個要求提出來之後吳宗憲召委覺得這個改締得非常好啊所以呢馬上就延期兩個禮拜本來都要進行逐條討論了國民黨為了等民進黨我們的版本等了兩個禮拜就是讓中嘉賓委員有機會再多開兩場公聽會"},{"start":2133.777,"end":2149.047,"text":"對,三場公聽會再加上一場專案報告,當然中央兵委員講說這兩場公聽會,國民黨版本,那個民進黨版本有討論,錯!那兩個版本齁,你在4月3號的吳宗憲召開的時候,民進黨版本根本沒出來。"},{"start":2150.348,"end":2166.95,"text":"四月十號跟四月十一號召開的那兩場,民進黨的版本還在復一期,實際上只列為參考資料。大家回去看公聽會啦,都在講國民黨的。我建議很簡單啦,很簡單啦,民進黨用民進黨回力標打自己啦。"},{"start":2168.195,"end":2194.466,"text":"繼然溝通這麼重要國會改革如此神聖國民黨為了應和民進黨的溝通重要國會改革神聖三場公聽會加一場專報我也拜託民進黨我們主席啊能不能從善如流啊從民進黨至善如流啊三場公聽會舉辦完一場專報舉辦完之後再來審查資訊充分比較重要啦民進黨最民主我們要效法民進黨以上"},{"start":2196.085,"end":2202.466,"text":"主席各位同仁羅志祥委員常常扮演一個角色就是顛倒是非然後開直播然後迷惑大眾"},{"start":2223.322,"end":2242.714,"text":"根本胡言亂語,整個過程大家很清楚,我一直講說民進黨默說民主,默說憲法,默說出一切,無所不默說,說他最近樓市長委員說要默說我們的麥克風,這個是他昨天晚上說要默說,我說民進黨一直講話。"},{"start":2244.158,"end":2272.481,"text":"他們在做什麼行為?他所做的行為就是說他要粉線亂成所有的法案或是人行法裡面全部讓你們民進黨沒有機會講話。讓聲音不能出去。於是他扮演的什麼?4月15號我們可以看得到嗎?強行出委員會嘛。那本來這國會改是前面有公聽的事我們去爭起來然後中宣召委再去排。我中宣委員只有排場。"},{"start":2274.422,"end":2296.64,"text":"國會改革在立法院常常有,但是都有經過一個完整的程序。甚至我們認為,國會都說的時候,認為有疑慮的我們也不讓他通過,也不敢讓他通過。這是大家都很清楚的過程嘛。那今天顛倒示威,然後說民進黨給我們排兩場公共會議,公共會議是我們自己排的。"},{"start":2297.501,"end":2306.179,"text":"於是為我們看到4月15號強出委會到五點多我們不得不要請你三個東西就是阻止你們迴旋亂正嘛"},{"start":2307.338,"end":2330.635,"text":"然後接下來4月18號換我們,你們就來商會掉嘛。然後早上9點多就商會掉。就沒收委員會嘛。換我們排的時候,你就把他沒收掉。再接下來兩場也是一樣啊。一路沒收到底嘛。所以就是齁,讓民進黨版本不能在委員會被討論。讓國民黨版本也不能被討論。然後一路喘關嘛。"},{"start":2332.156,"end":2345.911,"text":"那在想說一個月到期5月15、17號的時候可以刪讀嘛。然後刪讀的時候也不寄一套來協商嘛。那或是協商一個席次。然後呢,在A會的時候聽討論就一直錄表決。"},{"start":2349.772,"end":2366.305,"text":"這種計畫都沒有用,違憲就是違憲,臺灣人民在看到這一刻你們搞什麼鬼,尤其現在不是只有委員沒收,承信委員會也沒有提案給你擋掉,那承信委員沒有擋掉的時候,那漏網之魚只有院委給你擋。"},{"start":2367.577,"end":2386.602,"text":"就是如此嘛,所以現在就是說,整個國會是在國民黨副分局和洪國昌黨的掌控下,全部被夭壽枉。這國會已死了。這國會已香港化了。在裡面有沒有看到,中大法案哪有禁錄二讀道理,定位法除了禁二讀。"},{"start":2388.302,"end":2412.373,"text":"憲法重複經過讀,立法院自己條約重複經過讀,這個都離譜嘛。第二法你現在要把它改,沒有關係,你這分秒必爭,請問已經定價已經漲了,而且非常不可,你不可能從頭再來,下次要再讓定價不知道什麼時候,在委員好好討論不可以嗎?因為你們沒有邏輯基礎,沒有要編嘛,婚姻期間沒辦法講什麼話。"},{"start":2414.116,"end":2439.619,"text":"只是要下紙巾而已啊。你們大家都競爭這國會是這樣的嗎?這一家立法可以為什麼要禁會圖?立法院自己條例為什麼要自己禁會圖啊?這本來有40個版本在啊。你們把國民黨自己抽出來、民主黨自己抽出來。然後呢?然後就你趕在前面,後面的人全部不如審查。我們從來不敢顧慣這一套的。中央法院從來不禁會圖。"},{"start":2440.64,"end":2457.393,"text":"即便我們自己要進入我們都反對,所謂事先到期的還有事先性的才進入,那要進入才會同意,那要進入才會同意,從來沒有那種胡搞的。所以今天要告訴各位,我們過去有衝突的時候沒有辦法開會的時候,"},{"start":2459.494,"end":2484.651,"text":"主席臺北佔領,才有直接到委員會去。這個會議一定是朝夕大家談好的,而且真的有重要性。所以不要顛倒思維,要協議、要協議。老實講,你是年輕人啊。現在人家說話要多,你以後要面對選民考驗,你不要躲在深藍的族群裡面,然後你把那些人鞏固好。這個國家和你都,你這樣的行為你認為會一直,會一直讓你當選嗎?"},{"start":2486.152,"end":2487.052,"text":"好,謝謝的程序發言。現在請問林委員您是...好,程序發言時間3分鐘。"},{"start":2514.383,"end":2514.403,"text":"韓國瑜議員"},{"start":2533.575,"end":2549.053,"text":""},{"start":2549.133,"end":2564.082,"text":"民進黨的版本不管是職權行為法這一個版本中央兵召委屢次在排了而上禮拜我們也這個就是民進黨希望禁服二讀我想這幾個法案不是說國民黨不願意讓大家來進入諸條討論其實我剛才講過"},{"start":2568.365,"end":2593.852,"text":"大家要討論什麼都要了解,我想柯建民總長你也了解,大家要討論什麼東西心知肚明,為什麼不願意把這些相關民進黨的版本,正如我們剛才羅志祥委員講的,先開一個公聽會,針對民進黨的版本,除了我們立法委員已經在我們的討論的時候就專報的時候已經有相關的一個詢答的一個過程,"},{"start":2594.352,"end":2609.148,"text":"那是不是再排個公聽會讓我們社會更了解說民進黨的版本是在說什麼?我覺得國民黨的版本都已經講了三次 召開三次公聽會民進黨再召開一兩次就有什麼困難嗎?這搞什麼困難?"},{"start":2610.309,"end":2626.937,"text":"我們未來就是說如果在召開不管是我們的黨團協商也好或者未來我們的院長來召開協商的時候大家還有很多的機會就針對國民兩黨的版本大家都可以提出自己的看法跟意見"},{"start":2628.558,"end":2643.366,"text":"這個流程很清楚啊為什麼就是一定要在這個每次屢次的不斷的重複的排這樣的相同的一個不管是行為法的法案或者是立法院之間行使法的這個法案這重複的排我真的不曉得"},{"start":2644.326,"end":2647.007,"text":"我覺得我們還是務實的面對整個立法的過程。我想我們的這個國民黨絕對沒有所謂沒收我們討論這樣的一個情形的。"},{"start":2666.594,"end":2694.229,"text":"這個到了協商是可以講清楚說明白但是召開公聽會這件事情我覺得很重要針對民進黨的版本我們的專家學者的看法怎麼樣這個我想對未來這個我們進入協商的時候把民進黨的版本在協商的時候讓我們更了解然後大家一起來談也不是說不可能把你們的版本來納入我們未來協商成為一個我們最後定案的一個條文"},{"start":2694.929,"end":2698.779,"text":"不是不可能啦所以大家不用這樣疊對疊在那邊這個預設立場說一定不會把你們的條文納進來啦以上謝謝"},{"start":2705.353,"end":2723.418,"text":"好,謝謝林委員失明。再次說明一下,因為吳釗偉跟本席我們在安排,包括公聽會的時候,在本席安排的那兩次,我們看到的這些法案都在那兩次公聽會所提送的資料當中,以上說明。接下來請我們莊瑞雄委員發言,繼續下來是范雲。"},{"start":2729.68,"end":2748.594,"text":"謝謝昭緯,在場所有媒體朋友。其實我剛聽了林士明委員這樣講法,聽起來好像外界會講的覺得很合理,但是這個內心所隱藏的那種兇惡,其實大家都非常清楚,你沒有辦法說服你們的黨團。"},{"start":2749.815,"end":2771.185,"text":"可以啊,你說要把所有的法案全部都一包,然後大家來做協商,民進黨是願意的啊。那我們今天來看啊,今天我們所提出來要審查這一法案,倒也不像什麼,我們羅志強委員提到這個叫做閹割法案,這個怎麼會是閹割法案?因比如說啊,你在我們今天的立法委員行為法第七條之一,各位把它想想看,今天這個條文裡面要再來公聽嗎?"},{"start":2776.936,"end":2785.142,"text":"國會要置外於整個法律之外嗎?可以這樣子嗎?你說這個地方你們認為要公聽的意義在什麼地方?你說爭議在哪裡?爭議在哪裡?立法委員行為法七條之一裡面,你說當立法委員去涉及到性騷擾或性培歧視這樣的言行裡面,立法院到底要不要約束?除非你認為不需要嘛。"},{"start":2800.902,"end":2828.464,"text":"那你這一條你說把它定下去叫做閹割好像是講的也不太好所以羅志強這個講法剛好相反沒有制定立法委員行為法七條之一立法委員涉及到整個姓蕭或者姓北歧視把它定下去是閹割這不好吧這講法好像覺得立法委員好像是誰都不能做就是立法委員可以做這個也不好所以我反而會覺得說有共識的部分那是不是大家可以"},{"start":2829.451,"end":2831.773,"text":"我相信這種條文一討論下去你就會發現先把黨派給拿開的話這種條文我很難去想像說哪裡會找不到共識我很難去想像說林思明羅志強會覺得說這個條文是不應該定的"},{"start":2845.103,"end":2849.125,"text":"所以嘛所以我就講嘛所以這個政黨之間的攻防很合理啦而且非常正常啦但是過度的去把事實是非給顛倒然後呢大家在取悅自己的支持者這個其實就不必要了啦你像比如說我們今天這個第30條裡面的整個我們等一下來做一個大家審查的時候你就會發現了你如果說去違反了我們整個立法院的相關規定的時候嘿"},{"start":2871.677,"end":2900.72,"text":"紀律委員會裏面不用去調查、不用去審議、不用去做什麼處分,還又不用去做決定。這個也好奇怪,這個也好奇怪。所以有些不要看到民進黨提出的草案裏面,你就全部就是煩,就是黨。這個叫做過度攻防啦。今天的條文沒有涉及到什麼閹割立法委員,哪有。這些沒有制定的話,老百姓才會覺得怪,欸?好像立法委員是可以為非作歹的。我想啊,以上啊,大家啦,共同來做一個思考。"},{"start":2904.369,"end":2909.231,"text":"謝謝莊委員。接下來我們請范雲委員成立發言。我們請范雲委員時間3分鐘。"},{"start":2926.272,"end":2944.217,"text":"我想很遺憾要看到我們國民黨委員繼續用程序發言主導我們修立法委員行為法但是卻又不進入實質討論可是卻不斷地在外面用一些似是而非的說法在反駁在阻止我們民進黨團修立法委員行為法"},{"start":2946.638,"end":2968.19,"text":"那我想呢針對就是大家在外面的一些似是而非的說法在這邊做一個說明第一個有人宣稱說我們這樣做是不是跌床架屋那我想這個部分就要回到我們去年所修的就是MeToo的部分那事實上我們去年修完MeToo之後修了三法那針對校園的針對職場的還有針對性騷擾防治法把追溯期能夠拉長"},{"start":2975.093,"end":2995.427,"text":"但是修完三法之後我們會發現如果今天依照這個三法那事實上立法院還是對立委沒有任何仲裁懲罰的能力那有人講說那范雲去告陳雪生不是罰了八萬嗎代表現行法制面是足夠的我想在這邊跟大家說明"},{"start":2997.389,"end":3013.611,"text":"這個陳雪生賠的這八萬是因為我自己透過民事求償自己找律師耗時耗了多久耗時三年才能為自己討公道如果是依照性騷擾防治法因為現在兩個立委或者是立委跟記者依照性騷擾防治法"},{"start":3014.071,"end":3033.002,"text":"最多罰一萬那事實上對一個立委的財力來講的話其實完全沒有任何的懲戒力那我透過民事求償耗時三年的話為自己討公道可是呢我還是必須要在立法院常常遇到陳雪生如果今天是職場性別平等工作法的話其實雇主"},{"start":3033.302,"end":3049.326,"text":""},{"start":3049.746,"end":3067.242,"text":"而且我們上次有講過其實英國、美國、德國、法國他們國家也都有完整的法制可是仍然在立法院、國會裡面訂定內規就是要告訴大家這個是民意機關最高權力機構應該有最高的自律規範"},{"start":3068.063,"end":3086.92,"text":""},{"start":3087.06,"end":3087.2,"text":"議員主席"},{"start":3110.165,"end":3123.679,"text":"國民黨陳情申訴國民黨也不願意好好的調查那還有民眾黨的總召黃國昌說他不反對納入性騷但是其他司法官司法官說等是不是應該也納入"},{"start":3125.06,"end":3147.667,"text":"我們的周萬蘭秘書長已經在黃國昌巡達的時候當場回應,針對司法案件關說等在現行的立法委員行為法17條已規定,一、三十條也有相關的規定,法規早已經規定。如果黃國昌總召這麼重視司法關說,希望將相關行為納入更嚴,可是卻完全沒有提出自己的修正草案版本。"},{"start":3148.307,"end":3172.792,"text":"這是不是一種打假球的行為,掩飾自己,配合傅坤祺總召,成為附隨組織呢?如果黃榮委員讓我們進入條文的時候提出修正動議,我尊重,我們可以一一來討論,有共識的。至少他公開講,就是他支持性騷、性侵、性別歧視都放進來沒有問題。那最後呢,我也呼籲國民黨的委員沒有針對性。"},{"start":3174.212,"end":3203.192,"text":"那立法院就是針對助理的調查有40%的人認為立法院性騷非常的嚴重這是2020年公布的那希望大家正視這個問題謝謝范議員的會議詢問這裡說明一下范議員你所詢問的立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案有關於性騷擾的部分我們有列入在今天的討論提案第一案請瞭解我們會討論好謝謝那接下來是由吳思耀委員進行程序發言請"},{"start":3208.154,"end":3227.018,"text":"謝謝主席我想還是要先很簡要的那個highlight一下今天要討論什麼今天要討論民進黨版的立法委員行為法Focus在MeToo的條款反性騷的條款國會能不能夠落實委員的自律與課則讓國會也跟上"},{"start":3231.019,"end":3250.801,"text":"全台灣我們修了《性平三法》,國會不應當是所有工作場域之外的例外之地。我們要求其他公署機關、公司企業乃至於學校都要依《性平三法》來進行MeToo條款的相關因應。那為什麼立法院自己不以身作則呢?"},{"start":3251.562,"end":3255.927,"text":"今天審查的第二個重點在議事規則。議事規則,民進黨的黨版是希望能夠強化我們秘密會議所有的保密的行為以及防止洩密的行為。如果有不保密又洩密的立委,他應當有所責任可以克責。所以今天的重點在這裡。"},{"start":3273.064,"end":3282.677,"text":"所以今天的條文有幾個呢?Total如果以民進黨版的條文兩個法只有5個條文那如果加入委員個別提案賴瑞隆委員他的11個條文賴瑞隆委員是10個條文加上范雲委員的"},{"start":3290.146,"end":3291.007,"text":"此外,此外,此外,此外,此外,此外。"},{"start":3310.405,"end":3320.158,"text":"那我們來看看我們國會司法法制委員會針對國會改革相關的法案。職權行使法我們4月1號、4月3號、4月15號、4月18號開了4天,但是沒有討論任何一個條文。"},{"start":3326.827,"end":3353.652,"text":"直接國民黨黨版坐直達車快速通關打包協商所以花了四天的時間沒有討論半個具體的條文直接將國民黨版的職權行使法交付協商民進黨版的職權行使法迄今在司法法制委員會沒有進入任何一個條文的討論因為被阻礙了逐條討論"},{"start":3355.066,"end":3377.13,"text":"而在上週五的院會,國民黨再一次在院會用多數拒絕了民進黨版的職權行使法,一併交付協商。所以呢,國民黨版的職權行使法花了四天的時間,沒有討論任何逐條條文,直接交付協商。而民進黨版的職權行使法想要在這裡逐條討論,到現在還是沒有辦法進行討論。"},{"start":3380.791,"end":3385.752,"text":"厲（三）委員范雲等18人擬具〈立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案案。〈立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案案。〉"},{"start":3407.233,"end":3410.534,"text":"這是我們給國人的問政品質嗎?這是國會在委員會中心主義被踐踏至此,沒有半個條文可以被逐條嚴肅的討論。好,我補充一下,謝謝讓我們在周委員主持下,立法院的組織法確實有三個條文是逐條討論通過的。"},{"start":3430.763,"end":3437.708,"text":"除此之外,沒有半個條文在我們所在的司法法制委員會被逐條討論過。Never!這是什麼國會?沒有任何一個委員會不能審條文。沒有任何一個政黨要懼怕條文被比較、被檢視而閹割了、沒收了條文被逐條審查的機會。所以連同今天我們花了國人"},{"start":3460.906,"end":3474.927,"text":"將近15天的時間在這裡討論國會改革方案委員會是不是又如同過去沒有辦法被逐條進入討論國人都等著看"},{"start":3475.848,"end":3491.262,"text":"所以國民黨不要害怕今天民進黨版只有五個條文連同范雲跟賴瑞隆委員的版本加起來不過16個條文時間在今天一整天絕對可以充分的討論只要我們能夠進入逐條,徵典非常的明確。"},{"start":3493.624,"end":3519.287,"text":"保密條款如此而已還有賴瑞隆委員的是不是要擴大利益迴避就這麼簡單一點都不複雜不要害怕直球對決不要害怕上場打球不要害怕不要丟包民進黨的法案就只有16個條文而且如剛剛林思敏委員說的要討論什麼都很清楚了那幹嘛還需要公聽會呢"},{"start":3520.948,"end":3538.458,"text":"對不對?整點非常的清楚所以今天我們是不是再一次給國人一個最糟的負面示範司法法制委員會逐條不討論就成為國會惡例要再一次重蹈覆轍嗎?國人等著看就請大家能夠進入逐條"},{"start":3539.919,"end":3552.284,"text":"程序上我會尊重剛剛各位的意見。今天我們努力的讓我們的主條討論可以繼續進行。接下來有請翁委員、夏琳請。程序發言時間3分鐘。"},{"start":3564.94,"end":3565.04,"text":"范雲等16人擬具"},{"start":3584.271,"end":3609.12,"text":"厲法律是參考公職人員的利益衝突迴避法以及公務員的服務法等等相關規定可是事實上它的範圍是擴大的而且擴大的範圍基本上是值得大家一起關注和討論這包含就是立法委員的助理以及受立法委員指揮監督的助理然後相關的配偶子女等等的這些"},{"start":3610.981,"end":3629.002,"text":""},{"start":3630.697,"end":3630.717,"text":"閱讀者"},{"start":3649.65,"end":3675.657,"text":"觀眾謙虛"},{"start":3676.511,"end":3700.429,"text":"涉及到立法委員行為的部分剛剛這個范雲委員有提到像是性騷擾啊這個等等行為其實在其他的法律也已經有所規定了那就我們現在立法委員的這個行為法的部分其實也是可以處理如果說涉及到刑事責任的部分的話也是由委員自己可以直接向法院提起告訴的那麼有沒有必要跌床駕屋還在我們的"},{"start":3702.651,"end":3715.928,"text":"厲法還要去修立法委員行為法那如果說有必要的話我認為其實也應該要召開公聽會然後大家一起來討論這件事情那麼總之就是這個案子不是想像中的單純"},{"start":3718.029,"end":3741.749,"text":""},{"start":3741.849,"end":3742.129,"text":"閱讀委員賴瑞隆"},{"start":3771.591,"end":3797.532,"text":"主席、各位同仁、各位媒體女士先生。立法院再一次來上演頗分大戰。我想今天一個國會議員最基本的邏輯都講不清楚。如果今天規範刑法,如果刑責過輕,我們應該去修的是刑法,有國家的法律來約束。"},{"start":3799.181,"end":3827.33,"text":"而不是在這裡演猴戲把立法院當作一個秀場這一次的花蓮大地震大家看到執政黨有這麼多的立委明代到災區去耍猴戲把災區當作秀場我想今天這個是不是時空錯亂這是一個有尊嚴的國會但是我們真的很悲哀看到這些人天天在這裡演"},{"start":3828.427,"end":3843.82,"text":"突然,突然,執政黨的民代突然發現要尊重民意。我們實在覺得非常非常的好笑。過去2016年,在野黨提出了兩千多個案子為預算審查。"},{"start":3845.54,"end":3870.126,"text":"民進黨可以一次一包兩千多個案子做表決。什麼時候尊重過民意?天天都在踐踏民意。這個時候民意反撲了。他們只有百分之四十雙少數的政府,突然在跟我們強調民意。今天的民意就是告訴你,不要浪費大家的時間。一個執政黨,執政了八年以後竟然對自己完全沒有信心。"},{"start":3871.434,"end":3896.652,"text":"看看現在要修的什麼二等卿還有多少助理秘書通通要納入綠色恐怖的範疇這個國家還有自由嗎?連國會議員出門都要跟民進黨政府來報備要讓民進黨的行政權來監督立法權這個真的是荒天下之大吉的大笑話還給用行政權來監督國會立法權"},{"start":3900.967,"end":3908.985,"text":"我想執政黨的立委要把自己閹割,我們完全沒有意見,但是不要踐踏在野黨。"},{"start":3910.151,"end":3934.496,"text":"今天最基本的一個國會的尊嚴在這裡蕩然無存這種會還要開應該你們要去修刑法不管是洩密也好不管是各種不當行為也好你們都可以加重其刑而不是在這裡下西下井自己演這些猴戲來強迫大家來看真的是丟人現眼這就是今天的民進黨"},{"start":3938.978,"end":3963.754,"text":"謝謝副總召的指教其實我看聽了一下各位委員的程序發言跟會議詢問像剛剛副總召所提的就是賴瑞隆版的立法委員行為法當中的第二條那是關於立從法的部分還有第26條那是紀律委員會關於迴避的問題那其實是不是我可以跟委員建議一下因為大家的程序內容的發言都是我們主條討論的內容要不要我們就進入主條對不起好那請柯總召"},{"start":3965.009,"end":3965.169,"text":"請不要走不要講電話"},{"start":3976.738,"end":4001.678,"text":"為什麼竟然會講法律這個 法定下的大忌啊 根本不懂啊 說這個在這有破分 這有相關的刑法 刑法當然有啊這是另外一些對於這個法最主要是什麼 最主要是關係人以及利益衝突人的範圍要確定 然後要加強利益衝突的規範 以及讓秘密會議等 所以我"},{"start":4002.759,"end":4009.873,"text":"問題不要知道,知道嗎?現在大庭統一解釋,我希望歐小英能夠在場。"},{"start":4011.206,"end":4036.706,"text":"我們依法論法都已經解釋立法委員是屬於實質影響力還是法定時間說,已經解釋為實質影響力。當實質影響力和共同權利術衝突扣在一起的時候,就過程作為刑法,它會制定條例。現在已經法規非常嚴格了,所以要把這個法規弄清楚。"},{"start":4037.728,"end":4056.145,"text":"你懂得什麼叫刑法嗎?你懂得什麼叫大法律解釋嗎?實質影響力嗎?所以現在法律是這樣規範,當然我們在這方面要規範什麼叫關係人。關係人到底是哪些?利害衝突人是哪些?這要然後呢?要加強法治化。各位不要忘記,"},{"start":4058.669,"end":4082.284,"text":"一月十五號黃鴻章跳出來說要國會改革,第一個講什麼?要他第四點講什麼?加強利害衝突的規範,就是如此嘛。實在是加強利害衝突的規範,整個法已經到這個程度的時候,你完全不懂法律,然後不知道自己在講什麼。問要求說,郭文綺最後還會講到刑法。我跟你講齁,"},{"start":4083.806,"end":4092.936,"text":"哇 那個我跟妳很清楚喔徒裕他人是5到15年了所以大家很小心那今天我們要把這個規範規範清楚因為所謂的開公認會"},{"start":4096.961,"end":4114.099,"text":"這個法坦白講很簡單,所有人在開公路也可以,從來沒有說不做可能不開公路可以。他們今天就要反對這個法能夠做審查嘛,因為很多判例不分其利益衝突的部分。所以司法長是心路人皆知嘛。民進黨,"},{"start":4115.5,"end":4137.994,"text":"整個國會改革的重要的是職業行使法。你們那個職業行使法只有一天就強納出委員會,回遷亂政。整個民主破壞,這才是最要命的事情。整個臺灣民主已經走向香港化的時候,你們連這種一來行為法,一直規則都想擋。我一直覺得你那傻笑沒有用,常常擋車嘛。整個它民主潮流違反的。"},{"start":4139.554,"end":4147.699,"text":"閱聽民意會很鋪的,你們會心好,好不好。你不要以為你要紅瘡加起來可以轉動臺灣,控制臺灣,沒有那回事情。"},{"start":4167.418,"end":4167.718,"text":"范雲等18人擬具"},{"start":4189.318,"end":4206.297,"text":"我們這個國民黨的國會改革法案的這個流程其實我在最早是3月21號本來我們就是要排逐條審查但是因為柯總召還有其他人有跟我提議說這樣子不夠嚴謹"},{"start":4207.879,"end":4223.546,"text":"因為本來國民黨的想法是直接就排除了審查但是各位有跟我說不夠嚴謹那希望我們開公聽會但是因為公聽會必須在五天前就要排定了那時候跟我講的時候時間已經不夠所以當時我們第一次是開了一個3月11號開了一個專報那4月3號我又開了我記得是4月3號"},{"start":4232.369,"end":4252.367,"text":"當時又開了一場公聽會然後開完公聽會之後本來那一天也原本預計是下午就要直接要來逐條審查可是呢因為當天早上有地震那當時柯總召也沒有來嘛我印象中那我覺得有一些我也沒有來"},{"start":4253.82,"end":4281.141,"text":"然後我也要考量到每一個委員的權益所以當時就是把下午的會議我們就沒有繼續開了嘛然後當天又有提到說開一場公聽會不夠所以那個中召委他在各州4月10號跟4月11號又有開過兩場公聽會那我也是因為想說下個禮拜已經有開兩場公聽會了那這樣子的話是不是我就不要"},{"start":4281.681,"end":4298.524,"text":""},{"start":4299.465,"end":4313.154,"text":"因為中召委出國我代理他那我也跟中召委保證說我不會幹突襲的事情我不會4月8號我就給你排逐條審查所以我那一天還排去刑事局參訪"},{"start":4314.895,"end":4332.42,"text":"我跟各位報告你們這樣一路看下來我聽了大家的想法我開了一場公聽會一場專報然後我自己召開一場公聽會我也讓民進黨有時間開了兩場公聽會總共是三場公聽會而且我代理召委那一天"},{"start":4333.18,"end":4361.1,"text":"adequ.4月8號我也不突襲我就排了一個去刑事局參訪這個是整個的過程所以我想說我這提出來另外條文不討論不是特例我覺得以前民進黨之前很多都不討論那如果大家忘了大家忘了沒關係我再找各位以前的例子來給大家看找資料看條文我很行所以我可以找給大家看"},{"start":4361.94,"end":4382.422,"text":"另外就是最後我講一個有關這個去中國什麼報備這個我個人是覺得我們要考量的一個點不是說不行而是憲法第十條人民有遷徙的自由那我們今天對於自由去限制是法律保留是沒有問題但是呢"},{"start":4383.163,"end":4410.537,"text":"但是呢我覺得任何東西他要考量到你的手段的正當性以及比例原則那比例原則第一個要討論的就是你是不是有達成目的那你有沒有其他能夠更輕微的手段可以達成那我現在跟各位報告如果你今天總覺得說去大陸就要洩密就要幹什麼現在的通訊軟體不是不能做到你可以約在第三國不是不能做到所以我們不是不能提這個法案啦"},{"start":4411.317,"end":4433.959,"text":"而是說你提出來之前你的論述你的講法是不是更周全會比較好一點讓大家能夠幸福一點好謝謝各位好謝謝我們吳釗偉的程序發言接下來有省委員博洋提出會議詢問請好一樣然後再來有我們另有羅委員的程序發言還有我們柯總召的程序"},{"start":4437.475,"end":4452.433,"text":"好,謝謝沈伯陽會議詢問。那很感謝剛剛至少這一個我覺得以程序來講吳宗憲、趙偉用了很好的一個例子讓我們知道什麼叫做程序發言。至少我們在過往的一個程序當中至少做一些論辯。"},{"start":4453.414,"end":4470.872,"text":"但我這邊提出幾點第一個就是應該並不是吳宗憲召委讓我們開了兩場公聽會是因為那一周本來就是宗家兵召委所以這個應該不是你讓不讓的問題是宗家兵召委願意要去召開這一個公聽會這是第一個第二個就是我們對於整個會議的進行最大的問題是"},{"start":4471.493,"end":4489.241,"text":""},{"start":4489.761,"end":4518.428,"text":"雖然不管如何但我覺得剛剛至少是一個很成熟的一個程序討論的一個發言但我必須要講我是強烈的建議以後只要是傅坤祺委員的發言或黃國昌委員的發言是不是直接請他的助理來發言我覺得可能會比較快為什麼剛剛講了三分鐘完全沒有講到任何相關的法律論述那是不是如果助理能夠提供資料的話直接助理來講我覺得真的是比較妥當一點那不然的話每次都這樣在浪費時間剛剛傅坤祺委員唯一提到的是什麼"},{"start":4519.068,"end":4538.521,"text":"為什麼不使用刑法規定?這個規定講得還不錯。的確這個跟刑法可以有關係,不是嗎?那我就告訴大家,對於附中,或者見到中國的黨政軍,必須要申報。申報不實之後的法律規定,我們有沒有提出來?有啊,就是在下我提出來的啊。結果呢?你們怎麼做?"},{"start":4539.281,"end":4560.476,"text":"你們把他在程序委員會先做封殺第一次啊,然後再來這種委員會再退回程序委員會,你剛剛不是說要用刑法來規定嗎?結果你把案子退回程序委員會,那這樣是要做什麼?自我矛盾嘛。為什麼會有這種自我矛盾呢?因為你根本就不懂。自己不懂法律沒有什麼關係,助理應該都會提供給你相關的資料。"},{"start":4561.076,"end":4589.934,"text":"結果上來就只會做一些政治操作我覺得是非常不可取的事情再來還說什麼行政權會監督我在這邊告訴大家你立法委員要出國要不要辦護照辦護照要不要遇到外交部遇到外交部之後請問你要不要說外交部在審查你要不要講說是行政在干預立法請問立法委員要不要繳稅繳稅之後遇到國稅局要不要說行政在干預立法不要把立法委員的職權的行使跟立法委員作為一般人所做的事情混為一談"},{"start":4590.934,"end":4609.975,"text":"這跟司法院院長以後如果去中國如果也要審查他照樣也要收到審查難道我們會說這個審查是干預司法嗎?更不要講說律法委員握有內政部入委會這些的預算你以為這些人在審查的時候會橫趕審查嗎?這根本就不是審查過分的問題而是審查不足的問題嘛"},{"start":4611.076,"end":4625.913,"text":"那最後再講一下,如果今天一直要講說要開公聽或說影響多少人,我就問提出來的這些花蓮有關有的沒的條例預算那麼高,為什麼要直接就進覆二讀了,為什麼不在委員會做實質討論,它影響的人數有多少。所以我翻譯到這邊,謝謝。"},{"start":4628.788,"end":4640.373,"text":"謝謝沈委員的會詢,那本席會努力的在今天進入到主條討論,讓我們會議可以繼續進行到有效率的、有意義的討論。接下來是那個羅委員的程序案,他要先登記。羅志強委員。"},{"start":4651.769,"end":4674.154,"text":"民進黨別緊張啦說得頭頭是道我就是用你的魔法對付你啊就這麼簡單啊為什麼國會改革的提案要開公聽會其他的提案大家沒有講到公聽會的問題很簡單啊那不是羅志強標準嘛如果我今天主動提這個標準我不合理嘛我對不起大家嘛不是嗎"},{"start":4675.586,"end":4693.832,"text":"民進黨你摸摸良心我們吳宗憲早也在排審國民黨版的國會改革法案立法院的職權行使法我想請問一下你民進黨有沒有說社會溝通不夠公聽會多開一點有沒有有就閉嘴啦我是用你的魔法對付你啦今天講的所有東西不要緊張齁不要緊張不要緊張時間暫停"},{"start":4705.555,"end":4710.019,"text":"時間暫停時間沒暫停喔謝謝喔用你的母法對付你啦就這麼簡單啦當初我們的國民黨版的國會改革法案對不對要專報就專報啦請問現在有專報嗎我要的就是一個公平對等啦"},{"start":4736.581,"end":4744.048,"text":"沒有公聽會不用玩啦,就這麼簡單啦,有什麼好弄的,都你民進黨標準嘛,我照民進黨標準錯了嗎?我那走不對嗎?我這跟柯總統走錯了嗎?都你們的標準啊,不是嗎?今天你跟我講說立法委員執行新司法對不對?蛤?"},{"start":4757.062,"end":4769.147,"text":"你要講立法委員的行為法對不對很好阿非常好阿就按照你們標準去辦個公聽會到底有什麼了不起嚴重阿三場而已啦一場專報而已啦辦完之後再來討論嘛阿為什麼不辦阿為什麼遇到今天是你們的就你們對遇到我們比照辦理也錯不比照辦理也錯阿怎麼都錯"},{"start":4785.1,"end":4811.283,"text":"而預算包裹兩千案一次表決通過都是你們對,不用討論了。你多數時候你怎麼對待在野少數啊?有像今天還是我們吳宗憲召委的時候還花了一整天的時間,大家討論嗎?有嗎?什麼逐條討論?連大體討論?連程序發言都不給你啊?一開會五分鐘停止討論表決集在散會結束大家回家去了啊?"},{"start":4812.523,"end":4830.227,"text":"但現在委主司法及法制委員會吳宗憲召委主持的時候有這樣嗎?有這樣嗎?要的沒有多啦!就是一個公平對待而已啦!憑什麼民進黨做可以我們做不可以?不民主就是你們不民主你們開的利!不是嗎?就這麼簡單啊!還是一樣的句話嘛!"},{"start":4837.369,"end":4866.216,"text":"那你今天說立法委員喔不錯啦配偶共同生活親屬二親人以內親屬什麼受託人公費助理指揮監督的助理然後這些所有荒蕩到所有的人碰到的所謂的什麼監察人啊經理人啊董事啊然後再加上這些人的配偶跟未成年子女你乾脆把做一個政務人員行為法好了好不好通通抓進來啊去哪裡都報備啊要不要"},{"start":4868.544,"end":4871.246,"text":"三）委員范雲等18人擬具:「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案案。"},{"start":4879.296,"end":4898.815,"text":"憲法的一些保障沒有關係嘛,你們覺得不重要我也沒有反對啦,那就開個公聽會有什麼了不起?照民進黨標準開個公聽會有什麼了不起?開完以後,社會大家都知道,比方一個啊,你們國會改革版本,官員說謊無罪就是你們的重點賣點啊,拿出來比方一個啊。"},{"start":4899.475,"end":4903.521,"text":"三場公聽會高大為什麼官員說謊無罪呢?為什麼官員說謊不用罰呢?為什麼以前的民進黨說官員說謊要罰,現在民進黨說官員說謊不用罰呢?我講你們不會聽嘛!公聽會開一開大家來比拋嘛!"},{"start":4915.219,"end":4916.48,"text":"用你的魔法對付你啦!"},{"start":4945.481,"end":4946.106,"text":"科委員、科總,請。"},{"start":4955.387,"end":4976.454,"text":"您若輸了,胡說八道,不輸會勝。少年人說話要這麼實在的。今天我們在講的是,共青會是由何而來?吳宗憲本來要排一場,所以我們一直要求他多排,但是他排一場以後下午就要開始,世界大會下午就要開始審。你說我沒有來,我一直打電話給你。"},{"start":4977.734,"end":5005.899,"text":"讓一發生地震,部分就跑了。而且坦白講,只有開一場太少,所以應該停下來,讓中央嘉賓委員會再開兩場公職會。公職會是我們開的,所以要講清楚道理。第二個,我們要談什麼?談整個審查程序裡面的問題。如果講委員長說,我們給你什麼,給你大禹討論了,你還不滿意。這個是,講話要修正一下,這個非常嚴重。"},{"start":5007.879,"end":5031.621,"text":"議員法院之前是啦,是嗎?是憲法所規定,六三條所規定,一一結一三條法律案,不是你給的。也不是分局給的,也不是國民黨給的,也不是黃國昌給的。議員法院之前是你在定義的啦。你說給就給,不給就不給。所以你這些話以後少講。和分局一樣都以後少講。這毫無憲法常識。就是我們今天重點是10月15號當天,"},{"start":5034.478,"end":5062.777,"text":"整個程序審查國民黨執行刑事法把民進黨的丟包。羅志祥委員會被丟包。中委員的、歐委員的版本會被丟包。那只審國民黨的版本。但是整個過程是沒有討論的。你們除了討論,這連壓過去嘛。但是情形當然很清楚。今天重點是這一個所在。你想說醫療要這樣標給你記就記了。違憲還是違憲啦。你不要自己歧路嘛。"},{"start":5063.798,"end":5090.273,"text":"這是很重要的一個關鍵。剛才吳宗憲委員也在講這個同樣的問題嘛。吳宗憲,是不是4月3號是不是我一直打電話給你,我要打一個問題,問題就你放棄了嘛。回答還是不用嗎?你待會要回答我,沒關係。好,所以這很清楚。我們今天要講司法,你是法律人。但是我今天你是法律人,我要告訴你一個事情。人們要遷徙自由是憲法的規定。但是呢,請先看憲法23條的比喻原則。"},{"start":5094.155,"end":5116.144,"text":"當防止防礙他人自由、避免緊急危害、維護社會秩序以及促進國家利益的時候,可以做限縮。當然這次有批言者,當然有法規範,就限縮嘛。不是說我台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、台北市、"},{"start":5119.445,"end":5138.417,"text":"所以你對憲法上面一個自由權的上面你根本沒有自由權的規範在第七條二、三條是比喻原則我再講一次防止妨礙他人自由避免緊急法案促進社會秩序增加公共利益的時候不可以先說先去看憲法好不好"},{"start":5142.434,"end":5166.093,"text":"好 謝謝柯總召幫忙說明我們的那個吳委員因為吳總召吳召偉他要先還是讓吳委員先講完再吳總召那就讓吳委員講完再請吳召偉再回應好不好好來那個請好 謝謝吳委員那時間程序發言時間3分鐘那接下來我們再請吳召偉做回應也是程序發言"},{"start":5167.382,"end":5192.244,"text":"這個要回應一下這個吳宗憲、昭偉您真的是學法律的嘛您說憲法保障人民的居住遷徙自由沒有錯第十條但是我們在修的立法委員行為法或是沈伯陽委員的大陸人民關係條例聯合人民關係條例沒有限制台灣人民的遷徙或旅行的自由"},{"start":5193.444,"end":5216.549,"text":"沒有人限制前往中國或是第三地任何的自由而是要在有涉密的人員在事前登載事後做報告所以沒有人在違反憲法您居然會把我們的兩岸人民關係條例要求對於涉密人員的出入境的事前登載"},{"start":5217.729,"end":5239.228,"text":"讓他無限上綱到我們在限縮人民的旅行自由遷徙自由我真的很好奇很訝異您是學法律的嗎然後呢我要花點時間再次來說明4月1號排審了職權行使法4月3號進行了職權行使法的公聽會"},{"start":5241.147,"end":5248.195,"text":"三月二十一號是國情報告的專案報告那時候是針對吳宗憲委員叫牌的哈總統到立院國情報告要不要專報要不要那個急問急答的專報"},{"start":5255.424,"end":5278.044,"text":"再來進入4月10號排了調查權聽證權的公聽會4月11號調查權聽證權的公聽會4月15號職權行使法跟刑法繼續審查但是就在4月15號的會議上國民黨強行的打包這兩個重要的法律直接不審查直接打包交付協商"},{"start":5278.965,"end":5283.086,"text":"時間來到4月18號職權行使法民進黨版的不給審查。4月22號組織法行為法議事規則也是干擾不給實質的審查。那天我們只審了組織法。再到4月25號組織法行為法議事規則也同樣不給審查。"},{"start":5300.578,"end":5317.683,"text":"今天來到5月6號我花了這些時間把我們這個會期討論國會改革的時程都做了一下說明我要說的是什麼我們已經浪費民脂民膏十多天了Four days整天的時間在司法法制委員會"},{"start":5319.522,"end":5342.413,"text":"就是國民黨想方設法的阻撓干擾干預破壞逐條審查的機會踐踏委員會中心主義只要是國民黨版就可以快速通關坐直達車打包協商只要是民進黨版"},{"start":5343.173,"end":5350.317,"text":"國民黨最害怕的民進黨版就被阻卻了審查還沒有辦法併案被丟包這是什麼國會從來沒有這樣的國會我也回應一下羅志強委員民主進步黨執政八年的國會多數裡頭程序委員會沒有擋過任何一個議案零次"},{"start":5372.182,"end":5379.371,"text":"沒有就是沒有。但是國民黨恢復國會多數的這個會期居然在城市委員會擋案了。"},{"start":5380.222,"end":5384.845,"text":"我也要說民進黨執政多數的時候並沒有沒收委員會逐條審查的權利沒有過去在討論你們國民黨非常害怕的促轉條例也好不當黨產得利條例也好甚至是年改法案也好在相關委員會內政委員會司法法制委員會民進黨都讓國民黨發言說好說滿"},{"start":5406.802,"end":5411.688,"text":"讓這樣的政治性、爭議性的法案透過討論跟社會對話沒有阻絕了委員會的討論沒有沒收逐條討論的機會沒有就是沒有"},{"start":5422.728,"end":5444.656,"text":"民進黨也沒有選擇性的在院會阻撓了其他法案並案協商的機會。從來沒有。但是國民黨上週五在立法院再一次拒絕了民進黨的職權行使法一起並案跟國民黨的職權行使法並案協商的機會。"},{"start":5446.296,"end":5471.876,"text":"從程序委員會的檔案從委員會的主條沒收審查到院會拒絕並案協商這都是民進黨多數的時期從來不會做的事因為這是閹割了程序正義這是沒收了國會的民主沒有就是沒有羅志強不要顛倒是非不要胡言亂語"},{"start":5474.028,"end":5496.469,"text":"回到今天的重題我們浪費了民脂民膏十多天的時間處理國會改革法案今天5月6號還要阻撓主條審查嗎?出來打球沒有這麼困難收起你的心魔不要害怕面對面我們比專業"},{"start":5498.226,"end":5524.069,"text":"我們比我們的法學素養,比我們對於國家安全的忠心信仰,一樣一樣來比,不要害怕,直接出來打球。謝謝吳委員,在那個吳昭偉說,我先跟吳委員跟委員會說明一下,在本席輪值召開的4月10號跟4月11號兩場公聽會的時候,那時候公聽會處理的不是只有立法院,"},{"start":5524.77,"end":5548.985,"text":""},{"start":5555.053,"end":5581.929,"text":"謝謝召委我這邊簡單的回應一下剛剛柯總召問我的問題報告柯總召4月3號那一天確實早上柯總召打電話給我就說他們希望說下午不要進入到直條審查因為有救災有什麼的需求所以有這個需要那所以說當天下午我取消我是綜合的考量到確實有委員需要趕回去救災或是確認家裡面的狀況"},{"start":5583.07,"end":5608.416,"text":"况且我知道各州中委員有排兩場公聽會所以我才當時就最後做了那樣子的決策否則當天其實早上有記者來訪問我我也說我們當天下午就是要進入逐條審查所以說我是一個綜合的考量而不是說像大家都有一些什麼很奇怪的一些陰謀論那第二個就是剛剛沈博安委員所提到的4月10號11號確實是"},{"start":5612.617,"end":5632.587,"text":"閱讀委員會中召委排的公聽會這什麼我已經講的是正確的但是我剛剛要說的是本來我4月3號下午可以硬幹就逐條審查我也可以在4月8號我代理召委那一天就硬幹逐條審查但是我都不願意這麼做因為我覺得我不喜歡做這種事情我覺得"},{"start":5633.857,"end":5633.977,"text":"議員會主席"},{"start":5648.933,"end":5664.121,"text":""},{"start":5666.622,"end":5683.21,"text":"我來這裡我覺得很累,就是一定要幫大家上法律課啦,因為憲法不是這樣解釋的。我跟各位說,譬如說我們憲法言論自由,人民的言論自由並沒有新聞自由四個字嘛,但是所有的學者都認為言論自由就是包括在人民的言論自由範圍內。"},{"start":5687.372,"end":5709.349,"text":"人民有言論自由不代表你不能講話。你能講話就叫做言論自由,不是這樣。它是包括思想,包括你的所述的內容。所以所謂的遷徙自由不是說人民不可以走動,那個叫遷徙自由。法律如果可以用文字就解釋,那叫一個國小看得懂字的學生來解釋就可以。憲法它重要的是它的"},{"start":5710.129,"end":5732.384,"text":"這是中華民國根本大法,它重要的是原理原則。所以遷徙自由的意思是,你不可以加諸人民在遷徙上面的要求,除非他有法律明定。所以我們叫做法律保留。他今天犯法,我可以把他抓去關,因為法律保留。所以憲法不是這樣解釋,我跟各位報告,因為一直要來幫大家上法律課,我也很樂意啦,沒問題,可是"},{"start":5734.085,"end":5762.856,"text":"不能說喊著自己是專家憲法專家就來罵別人毀憲亂證就罵的東西是錯的因為這個社會上面念過憲法人非常多所以遷徙自由是加諸在遷徙上面的任何事情基本上要法律保留所以剛剛我一直講我說省保養廳的法案我不是說不行啦而是我們在討論法案的時候我們還要去思考剛剛柯總召講的憲法23條比例原則你的手段性目的性"},{"start":5763.336,"end":5788.251,"text":""},{"start":5789.226,"end":5812.822,"text":"在議法院進來以後,我是講說吳宗憲你是懷疑人,你這幾十名的共和國我非常尊敬你。但是從剛才的發言引來至於過去所有的在這個委員會裡面所有關於我們修法,有關於國會改革的修法,我們發現有一個叫吳宗憲的無奈。"},{"start":5814.517,"end":5832.053,"text":"人是不錯的啦,就想要依法行事啦,要奉行憲法,但是他有很多無奈啊。因為從一開始排的時候我就一直跟他講,我認為你應該不會忘記,政府國會改革要好好的審,那我要開公聽會,然後一條一條好好審。"},{"start":5833.632,"end":5860.774,"text":"他說永遠都是一句話,我知道啦,你去問副總裁講一下。這叫吳宗憲委員的無奈,但是他有這麼無奈還算本質不錯的人啦。本質不錯啦,但是沒有在高壓統治底下要行使抵抗權。要行使抵抗權,反抗。自由就是這樣爭取而來的。自由就是這樣爭取而來。有沒有,有一句話,陶柏川有個名言啦,經常聞,非常有名的陶柏川。"},{"start":5861.855,"end":5887.657,"text":"明明而死,不末而生。請你把他放在心裡。唐柏川當年唐柏川當建法委員彈劾在蔣介石時代彈劾誰?彈劾當年的行政院長易鴻鈞以及易鴻鈞同時是央行總裁。唐柏川就敢彈劾,蔣介石都低頭了。所以我們當任民意代表,你要了解你來當民意代表幹什麼呢?"},{"start":5889.059,"end":5904.033,"text":"民進黨代表不是只有藍綠而已,民進黨當立法委員這是一種志業,為國家追求公民正義。所以在這裡我要寄予吳宗憲委員,在整個過程中我一直拜託你,合適合適,公平公平的。"},{"start":5905.222,"end":5929.433,"text":"但是他有無奈,但是他也有做一個插邊球,說那我來做專案報告,這點我要感謝你。那你偷偷偷到後來4月3號了,要硬幹的時候,但是老天爺會發生大地震。我以為說是老天爺要救臺灣的民主人,下午就能夠停下來,但是後來還是一樣嘛。"},{"start":5930.353,"end":5958.01,"text":"因為會議去走了吧?你們等於會輸一票吧?所以,大家,你們不得不妥協啦。所以這個情形我們都很清楚。這個過程,我們要踐行民主。反正民主能夠這樣存到今天來,過去在六海裡面都可以認證的。但是今天整個翻轉了,整個變成了,所有的東西都沒收了。甚至連海安國議院長的草牙箱錢都被沒收。所以大家很..."},{"start":5959.191,"end":5983.462,"text":"我很謝謝大家看到這一刻,這是憲法時刻,憲政時刻。我們今天要講的就是說,公聽會也有開了。好,你要再開公聽會,處委會再開也無所謂。今天的條文都很簡單。至於這個憲法23條,我剛才一再的講就防止妨礙他人自由,避免群職、維持社會秩序,增進公共利益。這當然是法律保留嘛。"},{"start":5984.102,"end":5987.886,"text":"翁曉筠上次在問我說我的憲法常識在哪裡?憲法總共175條,甚至說條文12條。這很簡單,大家看一看都很簡單。"},{"start":5993.359,"end":6017.637,"text":"要來當立法委員必須要憲法及公法的嘗試,不是只有法律嘗試。法律當然是,法律是教會,我們立法委員可以做法律抽象性的修改,可以做修改。所以但是要維持在一個憲法的看法底下。所以剛才點名你說,你說文明有權與自由,我說不對,好不要再有憲法。自由權的,自由權第七條。"},{"start":6018.718,"end":6039.206,"text":"後面23條還有規範。所以我今天在這地方只呼籲大家共同來遵守憲法,維護憲法。不是把憲法也破壞掉,整個體制破壞掉,民主也沒收,憲法也沒收,那臺灣就倒了。但是這個行為一直在發生,而且會越來越嚴重,控制在兩個人手上。"},{"start":6040.563,"end":6066.331,"text":"皓文綺跟馮國昌他為什麼這樣我有空來寫演出讓大家了解清楚一下所以今天我們很重要像今天這個行為法、意識規則這完全沒有政治性啊這可以經得很討厭假如你們說這個條文不好忽然不夠多錢保留學長或是提修那個修正案都無所謂這個是要了解"},{"start":6067.677,"end":6090.624,"text":"我剛才在講,婚期回來,要講就是說,去年大法庭統一解釋,有關林育詩那個案子,用實質影響力。所以實質影響力就是說你有這個行為,然後扣除利益衝突,就是當初的條例。推理至少5年到15年。現在大家都要很小心,當立委都要很小心,當縣市首長都要很小心。"},{"start":6091.744,"end":6108.771,"text":"所以今天我在這裡,大家要有法律上的觀念。行法本來就有啊,通過這條也有啊。但是韓社範圍是怎麼樣?定義的人是哪些人?這當然必須經過重新的定義嘛。大家請看看今天的法是在講什麼?"},{"start":6109.511,"end":6131.307,"text":"不要只有供給,尤其最後我要寄予這個羅志祥委員,你討論的反應很快,口才會壞,不可以往歪去啦,不可以往歪去。我們講往正途走,你後面會有很大的前途,往歪去啦,你會撞牆,那婚期才會掉在懸崖裡面,你不要被犧牲掉。"},{"start":6133.736,"end":6143.031,"text":"好,謝謝我們柯總召。那麼我程序發言最後一位莊瑞雄委員發言完,主席這邊就要做程序上的處理。好,請莊委員程序發言三分鐘。"},{"start":6146.244,"end":6151.408,"text":"謝謝昭偉我們在場的委員我剛聽了我們吳宗憲昭偉的一席話我是被他給嚇死了他一直他說海上在本委員會裡面要教大家憲法誰的話都可以聽那這個憲法就是吳宗憲的憲法就不能聽了我們在整個憲法在整個第二章裡面第七條到21條規範的就是人民的權利跟義務"},{"start":6174.187,"end":6178.008,"text":"吳宗憲唸的憲法只有唸到憲法第22條,是啊,第七條到21條,這一些權力全部都接受到憲法的一個保護,但是你那個眼睛看到第23條的時候,你就故意把它給閉起來了。法律保留非常重要,但是我們今天我們在討論的是什麼?我們整個立法委員的行為法裡面,你去把它看看,"},{"start":6199.795,"end":6226.117,"text":"各位我再請教吳宗憲委員吳宗憲召委我們真的憲法會去保障你跑到中國大陸去泄密的自由嗎?會嗎?你摸摸著良心看想想看看這些條文這些條文是在講說我們立法委員如果你去接觸到這一些國家的一個機密你認為說我有遷徙的自由我就是要飛到中國大陸去"},{"start":6227.538,"end":6227.738,"text":"憲法不會去保障"},{"start":6246.803,"end":6247.163,"text":"mentioned."},{"start":6247.163,"end":6270.229,"text":"人民去接觸到國家機密以後﹖跑到中國大陸去洩密﹖那到底這個射程到底要多遠﹖本席的看法是很一致﹖射程跟範圍這一些都可以再討論﹖但是在討論這個過程裡面你為了阻擋這個法律的一個討論然後搬出憲法說人民有遷徙的自由人民當然有遷徙的自由人民當然有言論的一個自由"},{"start":6271.429,"end":6285.795,"text":"人民尤其是國會議員你說在國會要限制一個來立一個法律到底是不是要不要限制他不得去洩密你認為說搬出憲法說不可以做這樣的一個立法案做出這樣的一個立法那可以來討論啊可以討論啊以上啊我是覺得在國會裡面在討論啊不管是做任何的一個議事攻防啊還是要有一定的一個限度啦政黨之間的一個一個競爭或者說要鬥爭"},{"start":6301.301,"end":6301.321,"text":"閱讀委員會"},{"start":6311.769,"end":6312.309,"text":"主席"},{"start":6335.66,"end":6356.889,"text":"好,那就請翁委員三分鐘程序發言。主席,今天上午,"},{"start":6360.179,"end":6361.72,"text":"我們就不處理程序發言了。主席在這邊就做個說明。"},{"start":6378.578,"end":6401.713,"text":"那主席在這邊跟委員會做個說明那今日的議程我們有兩個討論提案第一提案一是來進行包括民進黨黨團擬具立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文的修正草案那條文的內容就是針對性騷擾防治以及包括紀律的處分"},{"start":6402.774,"end":6417.868,"text":"第二（版本是賴瑞隆委員所提的立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案,其中包含了利益迴避的規定,包含了秘密會議的落實,以及包含了利益衝突等人的認定跟定義。"},{"start":6419.069,"end":6433.845,"text":"第三個版本是范雲委員提的《立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案》,內容就是關於對性騷相關規定。這是我們討論提案第一案。因為剛剛委員的很多發言,"},{"start":6436.98,"end":6458.744,"text":"支持討論的大概就是針對在這些內容那要求另外在擇期召開公聽會的其實不是針對這些內容討論我還是要做個說明那討論提案第二案呢還是要強調我們今天討論提案第二案剛剛主席一開始就宣告我們今天只處理民進黨黨團擬具的立法院議事規則第47條48條及第52條條文修正草案"},{"start":6464.008,"end":6485.808,"text":"那麼另外賴委員的部分剛剛主席在一開始宣告就是說今天並沒有處理到賴委員的提案只處理民進黨團的提案那民進黨團的議事規則提案內容當中當然是包括了秘密會議的相關規定主要就在這裡還有參與秘密會議的人是否有涉密人員要附中考察的部分"},{"start":6486.408,"end":6512.621,"text":"那由於關於剛剛的審議法院當中對這個部分多有討論但是主席在這邊要跟委員報告之前這兩天有媒體討論到關心到委員在關心有關於賴瑞隆版的議事規則有關於國事論壇的問題那麼因為今天我們的討論案第二案主席宣告部分已經沒有包含賴委員的提案了所以我們今天的會議規則主要在處理"},{"start":6514.122,"end":6514.422,"text":"mentioned."},{"start":6514.422,"end":6539.664,"text":"秘密會議的涉密人員到依據兩案條例到港澳地區中國大陸地區是否要進行管制那我在這裡也跟大家做一個宣告我們手上是不是請那個會議人員我發給大家這邊有一份監察院所提出的委員職員員工進入大陸地區之申請標準作業程序那這是監察院在109年所訂定的"},{"start":6541.505,"end":6563.325,"text":"那這當中對於監察院所屬的委員、職員及員工進入大陸地區應遵行的申請和辦理的請假手續包括徵務人員涉及國安機密利益或國家安全利益或機密人員還有檢認11職等以上的官員涉及國家安全利益跟機密還有檢會時任的這個部分我待會"},{"start":6563.865,"end":6586.22,"text":""},{"start":6586.68,"end":6605.789,"text":"到涉密人員到其他地區是否要進行在秘密會議當中是在會議議事規則或是在立法委員行為法當中去規範那還是要在這裡跟社會做個說明我們今天要討論的立法委員行為法跟立法院議事規則處理的是性騷處理的是利益衝突迴避"},{"start":6606.329,"end":6608.69,"text":"閱讀委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具〈立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案案〉案。"},{"start":6633.7,"end":6662.156,"text":"提案一,三會動議,針對本日會議五月六日議程,建請依立法院一事規則第二十六條第五十七條規定,提議三會是否有當進行公決。提案人委員林思明、沃富昆齊、翁曉琳、吳宗憲、羅志強、謝龍介,宣讀完畢。好,那麼請問有異議?有異議齁,那現在進行表決。等一下等一下,我們先把程序講清楚。我們今天是"},{"start":6663.673,"end":6670.196,"text":"禮拜一還有禮拜三如果個別一次會嗎?那我們今天我們是處理有關於之間審查的部分。"},{"start":6686.018,"end":6711.138,"text":"我跟你們講,我們現在要表決三位,你一定會上會。雖然上會前我們有意見,我們對這三位的意見可以處理吧。來。今天是審查什麼?行為法嗎?那我們還有議事會長還沒處理嗎?好。那明天,禮拜三我們繼續開會嘛。禮拜三再繼續開會。"},{"start":6713.24,"end":6741.525,"text":"禮拜我們來審查這個有關於的議事規則兩條而已兩條而已好謝謝啦因為有那個柯總召提醒本席那也本席也跟委員報告那麼本週的議程我們是一天一次會所以呢本週有三次會週一一次會週三一次會還有週四一次會那跟委員報告本來週三安排的是立法院職權行司法的繼續審查"},{"start":6742.728,"end":6762.067,"text":"那麼如果說今天這個待會的動議處理完,如果今天的會議就不能繼續來處理立法院立法委員行為法跟立法院議事規則的話,那麼主席這邊也會接受大家的意見,在後續週三或週四議程。主席啊,海岸潛在你,你怎麼去調整沒有關係好不好。"},{"start":6763.786,"end":6766.829,"text":"禮拜三我們還是立法院職權刑事法。那現在呢我們就開始。"},{"start":6782.455,"end":6808.003,"text":"啊,反正一、三、四各一次會嘛。禮拜三還會出現的,好不好。問題委員?那個麥克風全部要拆掉。你乾脆全部要摸收,你要摸收什麼你就要開清單嘛。那你乾脆繳結一宗科技人民部來參加委會嘛,好不好。你要摸收什麼反正你先摸好無邊嘛,沒關係。摸收麥克風有什麼用?你說摸收人心嗎?"},{"start":6810.275,"end":6827.399,"text":"因為今天的會議程序還算平和,所以主席想說維持平和的方式來處理。那因為剛剛有異議,所以我們現在進行表決,採用舉手表決。表決前先清點在場出席委員人數。"},{"start":6837.472,"end":6850.218,"text":"在場出席委員11人不管主席。現在開始表決。贊成者請舉手。贊成者6位請放下。反對者請舉手。反對者5位請放下。"},{"start":6861.667,"end":6876.898,"text":"表決結果,在場出席委員11人,不函主席贊成者6人,反對者5人,三位動議贊成者多數,通過。好,本市會議進行到此,討論事項所列議案,軍令定期進行法律。"}]}},{"id":"15882","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15882","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/7a505bc1fba11f2dd5d059b51b1cfc708bd03a951da4504b3be8d109af184be496a6d4cd7d96036a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期外交及國防、司法及法制委員會「陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案及軍人權益事件處理法草案」公聽會113年5月6日（星期一）上午9時至下午5時30分開會地點：紅樓301會議","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-06","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-05-06T08:30:14+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-06T11:05:00+08:00","duration":9286,"影片長度":"02:34:46","委員發言時間":"08:30:14 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我們開始準備開會今天有相當多的專家還有國安部所屬相關單位我們今天要進行的是我們在上上次的會議決議陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案及軍人權益事件處理法草案"},{"start":1996.536,"end":2017.932,"text":"那因為影響甚巨我們今天邀請了各界的專家來進行公聽所以本席這邊先宣告我們今天是以學者專家意見為主那委員後續還有大體討論逐條審查所以我們的發言會把時間盡量讓學者專家有多表述的時間那我們先介紹我們目前在場的委員陳永康委員"},{"start":2020.472,"end":2045.539,"text":"那今天是國防外交跟司法法制的聯席審查的公聽會所以我們今天也歡迎我們這兩個委員會的委員能夠多加來不管是聽取專家的意見或者是進行相關的交流更重要的我們在上一次詢答的時候有相當多的委員就這兩套法提出相關的看法那我們有整理出真點待會會列為討論的要點"},{"start":2048.2,"end":2076.312,"text":"那當然也不是限縮各位學者專家的意見那個是參考也就是說立法委員在上一次會議的時候就這兩套法有提出相關的詢答那他們關切的點在哪裡因為這兩部法的法條還相當多所以重點可以供各位參考當然你們另外有別的思考有別的想法也歡迎各位學者專家來提供你們寶貴的意見那我們先介紹目前已經到場的公聽會的九名學者專家出席"},{"start":2077.532,"end":2104.182,"text":"第一位是臺大法律系林明鑫教授還沒到是不是?到的話讓我知道一下那國防大學法律系系主任鍾秉正鍾主任中央研究院法律法律學研究所副研究員吳宗謀來請坐再來是玄奘大學法律系副教授劉育偉"},{"start":2108.735,"end":2136.016,"text":"接下來是中央警察大學法律系助理教授李東穎接下來邀請的是民傳大學財經法律系助理教授林士清接下來是國防大學法律系助理教授蔣大偉接下來是財政法人國家政策研究基金會資深顧問韓玉潔"},{"start":2141.648,"end":2166.906,"text":"接下來是軍中人權促進會我們大家都熟識的黃媽媽這個陳碧兒女士非常謝謝她特別把事情挪開來參加也謝謝她為軍中人權長期的努力謝謝黃媽媽好那我們今天練習的官員的部分由副部長徐元甫上將率隊另外常務次長楊基榮中將"},{"start":2170.782,"end":2194.475,"text":"法律司司長沈世偉中將法律事務司法紀調查處處長王振儀少將資歸司司長鄧克雄資歸司人力資源處處長董少明少將人事參謀次長是次長劉沛智中將"},{"start":2198.325,"end":2219.085,"text":"人事參謀次長是人事勤務處副處長方中泰上校另外司法院由行政訴訟懲戒廳法官郭任森郭法官法務部由參事林峰文國安局人事處吳副處長"},{"start":2221.452,"end":2226.456,"text":"教育部學生事務及特殊教育司專門委員鄭文堯海洋委員會海巡署人事室專委翁群遠請議事人員宣讀討論提綱"},{"start":2250.115,"end":2272.85,"text":"討論提綱一陸海空軍懲罰法下稱懲罰法對各種懲罰種類之執行對象或要件之限縮得否一律應與本法中規範得否與施行細則中定之例如排除對服役28年之上校降階避免降階後與中校之26年最大服役年限或者辦理剝奪或減少退出及與懲罰時應與陸海空軍"},{"start":2275.832,"end":2290.716,"text":"軍官事關服役條例第24條或第25條所定之要件或減少退出給予之比例相當現行懲罰法第6條將軍人服從義務比照一般文職公務員、民定屬官如任長官命令違法"},{"start":2291.416,"end":2297.018,"text":"並向長官報告與長官以書面下達命令後時有服從義務未以書面下達之命令時則視為撤回命令該規定不分命令內容與情況與律要求軍事長官以書面下達命令是否合宜2022年5月13日修正之公務員服務法軍人亦有適用以放寬公務員之兼職兼差標準未來對於國軍人員"},{"start":2316.844,"end":2328.904,"text":"涵義務役違法兼職兼差制要件是否應與懲罰法中明定是本次懲罰法修正草案徵定第三章第二節行政調查與刑事偵查競合"},{"start":2329.383,"end":2357.367,"text":"在法制體力上相關規範是否只能在《刑事訴訟法》等《刑事程序法》中規範?五、軍人權益事件處理法第8條規定第三項年定由地方軍事法院聆聘社會公正人士或專家學者擔任兼任權保委員為確保審議的專業與獨立性國防部未來執法制定時兼任委員應具備何種積極或消極資格例如是否應一律排除自願"},{"start":2358.007,"end":2380.42,"text":"已退出軍人宣讀完畢在進行發言之前本席做以下幾點宣告第一本次公聽會邀請專家學者共計9名依照政黨比例推薦民進黨4位、國民黨4位、臺灣民眾黨1位"},{"start":2383.598,"end":2410.792,"text":"第二本日議程進行首先由學者專家發言發言順序依照簽到先後次序若學者專家個別有調整我們予以尊重那經本席唱名後請至發言台發言每人時間10分鐘時間到之前會按鈴提醒麻煩各位學者專家控制發言時間那如果有專家學者"},{"start":2411.272,"end":2411.292,"text":"第3"},{"start":2427.202,"end":2443.309,"text":"本院委員會部分若欲發言請在9點到10點半之間到主席台做發言登記因為今天是公聽會原則上是以學者專家發言為主待他們發言完畢後"},{"start":2444.369,"end":2458.155,"text":"我們在進行兩個委員會的委員的發言每會時間5分鐘最後請行政機關代表發言針對學者專家的意見立委在這邊相關的提問"},{"start":2461.416,"end":2485.134,"text":"來做出整體的回應跟說明那因為今天是公聽會沒有進行官員之間的詢答我們上一次已經進行過了未來的大體討論逐條還會再進行所以以上是就今天的次序跟本會來做個報告現在開始進行本次公聽會的發言首先請中央警察大學法律系李東穎助理教授上台發言時間10分鐘"},{"start":2489.872,"end":2491.459,"text":"響鐘"},{"start":2502.8,"end":2529.825,"text":"主席在場的各位委員在場各位老師以及各位先進先跟大家問好今天非常榮幸受到委員邀請來這邊針對懲罰法跟權益保障法兩部法律來發表一些我個人的淺見在進到提高討論之前也許容許我整個比較體系性的針對兩部法律它在整個"},{"start":2534.809,"end":2554.288,"text":"軍人紀律維持上面的制度的重要性也許來做一些簡短的說明我們都知道說其實這兩部法律在目前這個階段來去修改跟實施其實在整個軍人紀律維持上面其實它有重大的意義在這個地方的話其實我們可以把"},{"start":2555.128,"end":2578.945,"text":"整個紀律維持措施的相關的法制分成幾個階段來去觀察那這個懲罰法的部分的話當然是涉及到實體法的部分那這個權益處理法它當然是涉及到所謂輸送法的問題那這個我們都知道說其實在軍隊裡面的話這個紀律維持措施它是一個非常重要的制度"},{"start":2580.168,"end":2598.02,"text":"那我以前我個人在到警大這個服務之前其實我也是一般的法律教育體系出身的嘛那我到警大之後其實我可以深刻體會到說這個紀律的維持對於這個有可能會使用到武力的這些公務人員他的重要性在什麼地方"},{"start":2598.92,"end":2613.768,"text":"那所以我們都知道說懲罰法它最主要就是要針對軍人的違紀行為去從事所謂的紀律處分它跟一般我們講說是屬於這個行政法或是處罰的措施其實在性質上面本來就有一些不一樣"},{"start":2614.508,"end":2634.387,"text":"那在陸海空軍懲罰法這部法律他當然參考了如果在一般的法制體系上面的話當然我們會去區分所謂懲處跟懲戒那在一般的公務人體系的話當然是懲處的話就是有主要是由這個我們講說公務人考機法來去做處理那懲戒的話是由懲戒法院依照公務人員懲戒法"},{"start":2634.887,"end":2664.153,"text":"那懲罰法這部法律最主要特色就在於說因為軍人的就紀律維持措施他只有在少部分的情況之下會進到懲戒法院做處理那所以懲罰法作為一部規範行政機關紀律維持措施的一部法律其他程序跟實體上面的規範就相當的重要因為大部分的情況都不會進到法院去那懲罰法這一部法律其實相較於目前的公務人員考機法跟公務人員懲戒法我個人的觀察其實它是一個相當"},{"start":2665.934,"end":2688.348,"text":"引進了非常多這個先進的觀念除了他去修正了這個之前比較規範的比較簡短的懲罰法現行的懲罰法措施之外比方說一些很先進的觀念比方說維持行為一體性原則他也納入到這部法律裡面來那這個是關於懲罰法他在整個制度上面他的特色是在這個地方"},{"start":2688.908,"end":2698.377,"text":"第2個關於這個這個權益處理法他作為訴訟法的這個修正他最重要的意義就在於說我們其實在785號解釋事實是785號解釋之後"},{"start":2700.598,"end":2700.758,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2720.326,"end":2738.397,"text":"這個我們講說只要是涉及到人事行政措施軍方的人事行政措施的話他的這個救濟管道把它填補起來讓他可以去符合785號解釋的這個要求那這個也不是只有785號解釋的要求而已其實我們在現在的行政法院的法院實務上面其實針對這個懲罰法跟我們這個全保的措施他針對有一些懲罰的類型沒有辦法去救濟的這個情形已經提出了這個很多的批評"},{"start":2749.244,"end":2768.112,"text":"那所以我個人也非常樂見說法律事務司在這個司長以及各位同仁的努力之下很努力的把它完成這兩部法律其實就整個救濟體系來講的話看起來已經具有非常這個相當程度的規模了那在"},{"start":2768.952,"end":2787.483,"text":"紀律懲罰措施這個地方的話我們也可以再注意到說懲罰法這部法律其實它設計了非常多特殊的這種救濟的制度那這個救濟的制度我自己個人的觀察其實也比較能夠去調和軍方關於紀律維持的需求以及"},{"start":2788.687,"end":2803.966,"text":"軍人權益保障的部分怎麼說呢其實我們在這個權益處理法草案上面基本上我們是分成三個階段的救濟程序全保會他是屬於這個我們講說軍方內部的行政內部的救濟程序他是負責所謂的審議的副審這個副審還有再申訴的案件"},{"start":2808.371,"end":2830.467,"text":"那高等行政法院裡面再去設置所謂勤務法庭那勤務法庭這個部分的話是針對這個我們講說針對這個副審跟再申訴案件如果不符合情況之下可以向勤務法庭去請求救濟那如果對這個勤務法庭的裁判在不符合情況之下我們也可以向高等行政法院這就回到普通的司法體系上面回到高等行政法院去提起上訴"},{"start":2831.704,"end":2856.478,"text":"跟所謂的抗告那所以在這個地方的話我們就可以去觀察說這個為什麼在這個地方在權益保障法這個地方他為什麼比較能夠去調和軍方的距離維持措施跟這個司法救濟體系的完整性的地方就在這裡因為他去融合了一些讓一些軍方的人員受過軍事教育的這些軍法官或是國防法務官能夠參與到整個救濟體系裡面來"},{"start":2860.68,"end":2890.06,"text":"好那我們之前其實我在還沒有接觸軍方的這些相關法規之前其實我比較不能夠去理解說那為什麼紀律維持措施在整個軍方體系來說它是這麼重要可是只要稍微接觸到不管是警方或是軍方體系我們就可以其實相當程度的了解就是紀律維持措施在維持整個這個我們講說這個使用武力的人員他有可能去違法的情況之下的話它是一個非常重要的手段"},{"start":2890.94,"end":2918.636,"text":"那所以在這個地方呢我們第二個步驟的話就是要去統合這些救濟的管道那這個救濟管道這個地方它之所以它的最大的特色就在於說它去融合了這個我們講說軍方受過軍事教育的人員跟一般的司法體系的人員那這個受過軍事教育體系的人員的話他對軍方的這一些我們講說紀律的維持然後呢在什麼樣的情況之下的為之行為要給他什麼樣的適當的處罰"},{"start":2920.237,"end":2936.82,"text":"他當然可以比較有一個精確的判斷那就人權保障的部分的話這個地方也許我們就可以比較注重比較去借重比方說向高等行政法院提起上述的這個程序來去維持他的人權保障的要求"},{"start":2938.783,"end":2955.3,"text":"在這個地方的話第三個部分的話也許我們可以來看一下如果今天因為我之前聽到公聽會之前在委員會裡面討論的話其實有一些委員會比較擔心說那如果由軍方的軍法官來去維持這個"},{"start":2957.742,"end":2983.533,"text":"從事這些軍事懲戒措施、懲罰措施的相關處罰情況之下會不會比較偏重軍方的要求而沒有保障到軍人權那這個部分的話我自己個人看法是這樣子就是說當然如果是在全保會還有在勤務法庭的情形當然大部分的情況都是由這個具有軍方身份的人來去參與救濟的程序可是呢"},{"start":2985.113,"end":3000.279,"text":"我自己個人側面的了解就是關於之後如果這個權益保障法要上路之後呢相關的教育訓練好像司法院這邊也會提供一些協助嘛協助軍法官的訓練然後第二個部分的話如果可以針對軍事的"},{"start":3002.693,"end":3027.472,"text":"這個懲罰的案件如果可以向高等法院提起上訴高等行政法院提起上訴的情況之下某種程度他也可以去救濟我們講說這個有可能在前端的程序有可能會比較注重這個軍事上面劇烈維持的這些觀點那我目前的看法是認為說如果現在目前照這樣的設計的話其實某種程度應該可以比較平衡"},{"start":3028.832,"end":3053.242,"text":"這個軍事紀律的要求以及個人權利的保障的觀點那我個人認為在這兩部法律如果今天制定通過生效之後也許還有一些地方可以在我們的整個的軍事紀律維持措施裡面再去考量的就是人事措施的整合人事措施的整合那人事措施的整合這個地方的話最主要涉及到問題是說因為我們軍方"},{"start":3054.462,"end":3063.307,"text":"針對同一個違私行為他有可能有非常多的人事懲罰措施包括懲罰包括所謂不適不現役他就在不一樣的法規裡面去做規範"},{"start":3064.875,"end":3092.224,"text":"那這個部分的話有可能會造成同一個違私行為可是受到雙重不利益的處罰這種狀況那這個部分的話也許是我們在通過這個懲罰法跟軍人權益保障事件處理法之後有可能要去這個再去精進跟改善的部分那提綱的部分因為我還這個時間沒有掌握好所以還沒有回答到如果第二人發言的話也許我再來針對這些問題來做回答以上謝謝"},{"start":3096.5,"end":3096.6,"text":"主席"},{"start":3126.981,"end":3141.932,"text":"發言的逐字稿我們會在週三來提前送給本兩個委員會的所有委員週三之前否則我們一般公聽會會讓作業時間長一點10多天後但因為這親自造修法的歷程我們希望"},{"start":3142.472,"end":3163.491,"text":"今天委員就算沒有在場聽到各位寶貴的意見我們要把你的書面在我們進行逐條審查前提列給我們相關的審查委員在禮拜三上午可以啦上午把它提列出來那同樣的今天參與發言的專家學者那你們如果說沒有講完有PowerPoint有補充資料"},{"start":3164.212,"end":3165.693,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":3187.429,"end":3214.247,"text":"司法法制及國防委員會委員都能夠看到各位的意見到下午我們進行逐條審查後才有所本我們也沒有設定什麼時候把這兩套法修完我們是做著本份案表操課修完就修完沒有修完我們就繼續一直往下開因為這影響軍人權益不管是懲處維持紀律或者是權益的維繫這兩個平衡非常重要所以我們剛才謝謝李東穎助理教授的發言"},{"start":3214.787,"end":3217.83,"text":"國防大學法律系系主任鍾秉正提醒各位如果有我們兩個委員會的同仁提修正動議"},{"start":3232.125,"end":3246.904,"text":"請在週三上午10點半前不是今天喔週三上午10點半前送交議事人員我再提醒一次我們沒有設定什麼時候審查完略但是我們就把程序把它做對"},{"start":3247.725,"end":3248.786,"text":"委員會委員提修正動議請於本週三上午10點半以前送交議事人員"},{"start":3270.12,"end":3285.527,"text":"我們會在專家學者發言結束後來安排我們的委員發言委員發言完再關政府部門回應今天沒有詢答回應完之後我們今天公聽會就到一個段落以上做這個次序的說明教授抱歉讓你久等來請"},{"start":3291.838,"end":3313.468,"text":"主席在座各位先進大家好我是國防大學法律系的系主任我是文職的老師所以即職到了時間到了就要擔任這樣的一個職位站在我現在的一個立場裡面也站在整個國防法律系的一個法學教育上面這個懲罰法"},{"start":3315.729,"end":3342.067,"text":"的一個修訂是對整個軍事法律的教育以及未來軍法的發展是非常重要的那我簡單提出幾個看法第一個就是因為我們今年開始我們的兵役延長成一年那所以這個軍隊要如何管理那就會不同於以往那個四個月的一個軍事訓練的模式那如何讓這個軍隊是可以備戰然後能夠"},{"start":3343.646,"end":3363.535,"text":"必要的時候能夠達到保家衛國的功能這是我們一貫的主張那站在法律的立場來講的話其實我們常常在強調說要依法行政那其實在軍中也要依法來治軍那什麼法呢這兩部法律就非常重要"},{"start":3364.395,"end":3388.454,"text":"那以往大家對軍法的了解都是用來處罰官兵的也就是用刑事審判那因為紅中秋案的話這樣的一個功能被轉到地方法院去了那留下來的軍中的紀律如何維持其實老實講它並不穩固我同時也是國防部的訴院委員我們過往這幾年裡面遇到很多的案例"},{"start":3389.456,"end":3396.576,"text":"發覺說其實我們的立場我們的依據其實不夠明確不符合一個現代化的法治國家的要求"},{"start":3397.918,"end":3418.776,"text":"所以整個國家在進步軍中也要跟著進步尤其在法治方面那所以軍法的角色他就從原本一個制裁違法官兵的角色變成是一個保護官兵的角色也就是說未來這兩部法律的設計未來如果官兵在軍中受到懲罰的時候"},{"start":3420.137,"end":3443.09,"text":"他可以尋權益保障尋那個那個我們所謂的懲戒那個植物法庭的方式來達到行政救濟的目的那這個是非常重要的這是非常重要的也就是說軍法的角色變成是在保護我們的官兵的權益這是完全不一樣的那另外的對於軍法官的未來因為"},{"start":3444.671,"end":3456.301,"text":"我們那個整個軍事審判移到行事軍事審判移到了一般的法院了所以如何哪一天真的作戰時候我們需要軍法官的話那會沒有"},{"start":3457.998,"end":3486.43,"text":"那怎麼辦呢我們平常就要儲備這樣的一個能量雖然他們平常從事的如果這個法通過之後他從事的是行政訴訟的工作可是這樣的一個軍法官的角色會藉由這樣的制度繼續維持下去以備戰時不時之需當然我們不希望打仗不希望打仗可是一定要備戰這個就算我是一個文人的話我也不可能講說那個兩岸都沒有事情"},{"start":3487.21,"end":3496.325,"text":"好 那還有一點時間我來分享一下就是針對這幾個大綱裡面我有一些看法首先有關於那個到底"},{"start":3497.418,"end":3516.614,"text":"我們的懲罰的各種種類啊什麼等等的可不可以放在施行細則中來制定這在行政法的一個規範裡面是非常常見的我們有個大法官解釋443號解釋就講到有關於技術性的或者是細節性的這個規範"},{"start":3518.095,"end":3539.463,"text":"因為行政法非常複雜如果全部都要歸在法律裡面的話一方面法條會非常眾多然後再來修法不容易修法不容易然後就很容易阻礙到行政的靈活性所以通常技術性、細節性是容許定在行政法規命令裡面尤其是施行細則裡面"},{"start":3541.143,"end":3569.714,"text":"所以然後另外的我們的現在的行政命令都要送立法院來備查所以換句話說如果真的是有不適宜的地方的話也可以透過備查的程序來賦予備查所以其實現在的這樣立法的程序的話不是說那個行政機關可以一手遮天所以我覺得說從技術上考量然後從官兵的權益上考量要能夠取得一個均衡讓這個法能夠真正的"},{"start":3570.794,"end":3596.032,"text":"能夠落實下去至於有關軍人的服從義務這的確是一個問題我們在修法的過程中也的確有提到這個問題可是我們必須要強調是說現役軍人跟公務人員是不一樣的我們的公務人員是具有公務人員身份是經過依法任用的也就是說他以此為業的"},{"start":3597.455,"end":3620.362,"text":"可是所謂的現役軍人他其實分兩大塊有很大一部分是義務役的官士兵那這一些人當個幾個月甚至一年他就要回到一般的那個社會了然後另外有一群人比較少數的他是從事以此為業所謂的職業軍人所以我們的現役軍人裡面有這樣的一個複雜的屬性"},{"start":3622.743,"end":3648.566,"text":"所以他跟一般的我們對公務人員的要求其實沒有辦法等同是之然後再來的所謂的我們那個公務員服務法理院所所講到的服從義務包含可以要求違法的行政那個那個命令的話可以要求長官來就是下條子給書面的這個是在程序上面的保障可是在軍中的話其實不太容易當然我會覺得就是說"},{"start":3650.387,"end":3666.522,"text":"有其他的方式可以解決包含他能夠佐證能夠舉出證明比如說電話紀錄比如說他的同僚之間的佐證其實也可以達到同案的效果我們在實務上也的確遇過這樣的一個情形反走過必留下痕跡"},{"start":3667.703,"end":3688.029,"text":"不可能一個長官他可以隻手遮天沒有到這個程度那當然其實又要一方面維持這樣一個戰鬥團隊的一個向心力然後一方面又要讓他能夠合法的運行這的確是兩難不過我覺得在法律上面透過不同的層級的法規範我們可以達到平衡的目的"},{"start":3689.076,"end":3715.265,"text":"好那另外的話還有一個第三個是有關於兼職兼差的問題啦其實兼職兼差的話其實我們最近這幾年包含年改包含公務人員的法制的改革的確兼職兼差這方面已經開始出現說是不是要鬆動了可是當然最重要是不能夠去動搖或者是妨礙他的本務這才是最重要的"},{"start":3715.825,"end":3731.237,"text":"那軍中在這一塊的話要求比較嚴格原因是軍人的屬性不一樣他必須要全天候的原則上全天候的在就是備戰然後在執勤這個跟我們一般的公務人員上下班是不同的"},{"start":3732.157,"end":3749.978,"text":"所以我覺得在兼職兼差這方面的話的確在軍中會比較要求比較嚴格一點那也因為這個樣子的話恐怕在這部法律裡面在技術上面不太容易全部納入我會建議就是說在立法技術上面他可能要另外再去規範"},{"start":3752.93,"end":3754.33,"text":"軍人的懲罰這是一個紀律法"},{"start":3780.953,"end":3781.593,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3801.274,"end":3817.062,"text":"很多人都是用技術性的杯葛反正我能拖就拖我先到刑事訴訟去然後我這邊就可以拖著那這樣子尤其我剛剛講過我們有一大堆義務義的軍事官那我們就管不到了因為等到刑事那邊判決確定"},{"start":3818.123,"end":3818.603,"text":"行事程序"},{"start":3839.093,"end":3859.322,"text":"原本我們有在考慮說要不要放到刑事訴訟法那邊去可是刑事訴訟法的話業管單位是在司法院那如果要等司法院再配合再討論再修法的話那又緩不濟急這樣子所以我們先把它放在懲罰法裡面作為一個特別程序當然我剛剛講過行懲並行這個是不排除的"},{"start":3861.824,"end":3878.784,"text":"最後面是對於領選一些社會公正人士、學者專家來參與權益保障的現行的設計是五個權保委員裡面有兩個是國防法務官三位是外聘的學者專家"},{"start":3882.808,"end":3897.378,"text":"委員擔心說要不要排除這個以往就是職業軍人的部分那其實我覺得剛剛我講過了我們所有的只要是男生的話也都當過EUE阿再給我一分鐘所以事實上"},{"start":3899.186,"end":3925.797,"text":"當過兵尤其擔任過職業軍人他反而對這個職業更了解更了解而且他的角色已經不一樣了變成是民間的我想任何人他為了這個國家為了這個軍隊好的話他不見得都要關關相護更何況他已經變成是民間了就算再怎麼有民間友人的話他基於他的專業也會站在他的專業立場提供考量"},{"start":3926.317,"end":3947.752,"text":"更何況他是為了要保障現役的軍人受懲罰的軍人他不是要處罰他所以事實上其實甚至引進這一些學者專家來講的話會更容易讓這個委員會發揮功能為什麼因為反而是現役的軍人中間會有愛手愛腳的地方"},{"start":3949.933,"end":3949.993,"text":"主席"},{"start":3982.834,"end":4006.683,"text":"謝謝那我們請呃劉亦偉副教授謝謝這個謝謝這個按下一個就對了"},{"start":4009.342,"end":4029.01,"text":"主席還有各位委員還有各位先進大家好那個我之前在4月19號的時候曾經針對受到立法院的這個法治局的這個邀請針對這個所謂的現在第二個部分有關於這個軍人權益事件處理法的這一部程序法的部分有寫大概5000多支的報告"},{"start":4029.79,"end":4051.303,"text":"那這個部分有一些建議的部分因為有部分已經是重複的所以我就不再多提了那我只針對今天主席所開設的提綱的部分做一些探討那首先也非常榮幸能夠來參加這次的公聽會那這次陸海空軍刑法將這個救濟的部分獨立出來另外成立一個軍人權益事件處理法的程序法"},{"start":4051.943,"end":4077.045,"text":"事實上我對這個名詞的部分之前我在法治局也有談到過是有一些建議的不過如果還是定調成這樣的話當然予以尊重但既然它是屬於程序法的部分的話它也整合了國軍各類的救濟管道這個部分倒是一個蠻不錯的一個設計那同時它也提升了有關於在行政規則的救濟作為提升到它的法律位階並且依照4至785號的解釋將這個草案的部分總共分為兩個部分"},{"start":4078.206,"end":4102.589,"text":"第一部分是有關於副審他是處理傳統身份變更公法上財產請求權獎懲考積的相關行政作為第二個部分是有關於申訴及再申訴的部分這個部分他也秉除了這個副審以外的行政處分的一些管理的措施那最特別的部分無論是副審或是再申訴都是交給賦予已經賦予法源依據的全保會因為過往"},{"start":4103.89,"end":4119.46,"text":"國軍單位的全保會都是用行政規則來去做相關的運作的那這是正式的將這個所謂的官兵全保會的部分然後把它賦予它的法院依據所以對於不服以及再申訴的這個結果的部分可以讓像高等軍事法院的勤務法庭做第一審的行政訴訟"},{"start":4120.501,"end":4143.155,"text":"那如果還有不符可以向司法機關的這個所謂的高等行政法院再去做上訴這個部分就呼應了早期這個4至430號軍事審判法可以允許向司法機關尋求救濟的部分來尋求公正的部分做一個相互的一個呼應所以整體來講在設計上的部分表達肯定這個是第一個部分的一些說明"},{"start":4144.776,"end":4172.79,"text":"由於這個時間的關係提綱的部分總共計有五項那我僅就第一點有關於降階的部分也就是關於懲罰法的部分還有第五點有關於審議做法跟立法目的的關聯這個部分是涉及到軍人權益事件處理法草案的部分來發表個人的一些意見首先第一個部分有關於這個降階的部分在這邊我要探討的是有關於降階的適用對象以及他的做法上面這不是我所關懷的焦點"},{"start":4173.55,"end":4202.813,"text":"因為我想直接破題堅持降階這種懲罰種類是違反平等原則以及比例原則的恐有違憲之餘首先第一個在沒有毫無法院依據的這個部分我做的理由是懲罰法距離上一次大幅修正時間是在104年的時候新增了這個所謂的降階的懲罰也就在該法也就是現行法的部分第37條的部分明定由行政院以命令認定生效日期"},{"start":4203.493,"end":4225.992,"text":"那這個時候行政院在109年8月5日由行政院願受人陪制第10900385061號宣布降階至109年8月10日施行各位有沒有覺得很奇怪明明是在104年定制令的可是卻在109年才公告他的施行日期從訂定到施行日期延遲了5年"},{"start":4227.453,"end":4249.604,"text":"實用到現在國防部毫無任用到底有關於降階的實例那是因為降階本來在制定之初就存在著政策性、法律性、實務性的爭議因為毫無法源依據參照公務人員懲戒法的相關的這個懲罰種類我們也從來沒有看過公務員由檢任降變為監任監任降成委任的案例"},{"start":4250.664,"end":4264.994,"text":"我們再從大法官釋字的相關釋字中也可以看到大法官釋字有談到有所謂的降低擬任官等的部分這是針對公務人員任用的這個資格的部分來予以做的相關人事作業程序它並不是一種懲罰所以在這個地方降級的施作涉及到後續的退伍處分"},{"start":4270.738,"end":4270.758,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4290.433,"end":4316.538,"text":"即便草案現在修正叫做一年之內不可以調任主官職我也看不出它意義在哪裡因為畢竟已經涉犯了違紀行為本來就沒有續任主官的可能這個就是有點多詞一舉所以換句話說像這種附帶性的人事處分的一個連帶效益就好比剝削了好幾層皮一樣相較於其他的行政懲罰來講還有來的恐怖第二個部分是有關將跟任之間的作業不平等"},{"start":4317.498,"end":4338.474,"text":"一般來講我們軍官的任官是以總統的任官令為之為什麼降階的時候是由全責機關的全責機關是以行政命令的一職處分來為之事關的部分的任官是由光波各司令部認知是以降階時他也不會去干預到全責機關所做的行政處分所以這個任官跟降階之間"},{"start":4339.855,"end":4345.758,"text":"任與將之間的這個施加處罰的主體呈現極不平等的狀況也違反了平等原則跟比例原則的要求除此之外還有涉及到後面有關降階任職的問題因為它降了每一個官等都有固定的職務這個如何將官等跟職務做相關的一個對應這個也有涉及到任職的問題考機的問題等等部分"},{"start":4363.047,"end":4387.408,"text":"而且這個部分的後面的問題衍生的部分是增添了現在所提軍人權益事件處理法的溯源對人事作業而言根本叫做耗費資源以及徒增負擔所以在這個地方我們也做一個他山之石可以公錯臺美的軍法交流的過程中美國軍法從來都沒有聽過有關於降階的設計的操作是不是在當初建議降階之初名詞翻譯的美麗錯誤這個部分擁有爭議"},{"start":4389.75,"end":4395.671,"text":"接下來是有關於獎賞不對等的問題考量到懲罰法對於懲罰種類已經很多元了也就是我們設計出這麼多的懲罰種類已經可以供權責長官做一些相關的採用了即便不用採用降階也可以收到懲罰的效果那甚至於我們現在有所謂的降級降級也可以逐步達成降階的威嚇效果何必贅色降階"},{"start":4416.656,"end":4417.917,"text":"這顯然是一種既不公平又不對稱的奇異立法設計"},{"start":4437.406,"end":4466.078,"text":"最近委員會在這個地方在4月29日有做一個臨時的提案爭取恢復退役上校階以上的子女補助費如果假設這個臨時提案的部分沒有順利通過而降階處分仍然存在一名受上校階降階處罰的人降到下一階之後變成中校和退役之後對當事人這不是一種威嚇跟警惕的效果反而是一種擺脫上校不可以請領子女補助費的一個限制進了連帶改變退休後的整體福利"},{"start":4466.638,"end":4492.624,"text":"恐怕誘發當事人故意自招降階的處罰是一種鼓勵軍人追求功利的一種諷刺因此我曾經撰寫過相關的文章批判降階實在沒有處罰的必要也建議刪除降階的種類但很遺憾的是行政院在普通過的現在目前通過的這個《陸海空軍懲罰法》的草案裡面仍然沒有將降階刪除而且草案理由也就是現在會議資料的正第33頁"},{"start":4494.244,"end":4518.092,"text":"甚至說明受降階懲罰者實務迄今沒有作成相關的懲罰種類的施例等於既然有這個規定但又沒有這個案例是不是也證明了降階是否符合時需以及它的存續的必要性所幸今天在委員們的提案版本中有洞見降階問題的所在而建議予以刪除在這地方我個人持以高度的支持以及認同"},{"start":4518.812,"end":4526.981,"text":"最後對於降階的部分我還必須說有從它的制定之初到現在的程序我只能說這是民主國家縱容的契機"},{"start":4530.523,"end":4559.109,"text":"第二個部分在提綱第五點有關於軍人有關於審議人員的組成以及立法目的的關聯第一個部分我要所提的部分是在這個地方是有一個矛盾情節的我可以認同未來全保的這個審議機制應該引進外國外部委員甚至可以仿效近年來監獄刑刑法裡面新增監獄外部視察的機制或剛通過的校園霸凌審議機制但是說實話這是一個權力跟戰力之間的橫平因為"},{"start":4560.109,"end":4571.868,"text":"這一個草案裡面尤其是程序法裡面必須要兼顧部隊機率又要鞏固戰力那但是這裡面又談到說在申訴的範圍可以包含人事調遷的行政處分"},{"start":4573.004,"end":4588.87,"text":"除非這個人事調遷是軍事長官的這個財產權縮減到零否則不至於要透由法律介入也就是換句話說人事調遷的行政處分可以對之徵送的做法 凸顯在維護權益跟兼顧部隊機率之間的一個矛盾也就是換句話說將來在陳平時期"},{"start":4591.851,"end":4616.243,"text":"這種做法也許是個民主大躍進但是你現在叫軍人犧牲生命在這邊已經賦予他說不的權利了所以在這種公義大於私益的前提之下私益是不是應該要事實上不倘若容認私益無限的擴張是否可能有衝擊到領導統一權之餘所以換句話說在做這個部分的部分到底是要施治懲罰還是做刑事審理在這地方可能也要顧及到有關於領導統一權的差異以上"},{"start":4618.604,"end":4620.025,"text":"主席及在座各位先進大家好"},{"start":4644.785,"end":4671.516,"text":"我先想一下我們歐陽修在雙綱簽表裡面講到一句話說求其生而不得則死者與我皆無恨也我們今天在談這兩部法律我們都想到一件事情他既說要鞏固戰力又說要兼顧人權那我們就去思考一下有沒有辦法真的能夠做到可以鞏固戰力又能夠兼顧人權的一部法律"},{"start":4672.492,"end":4689.384,"text":"我們先回到憲法137條憲法137條說的是國防的目的我們國防目的在保衛國家安全維護世界和平我們先不說後段的維護世界和平我們先說一下保衛國家安全"},{"start":4690.461,"end":4718.668,"text":"怎麼保衛國家安全當然他就必須要所有的服役的軍人他真的能夠不怕死他願意在有命令下達的狀態下他可以陸力以赴因此我們在談這兩部法律的時候我們會思考到一個問題什麼問題呢我們在軍隊的管理我們既要求所有的軍人必須要有家人手足的感情但是同時我們又必須可以他嚴肅的紀律"},{"start":4721.141,"end":4740.927,"text":"我們常常講家是不講規矩的地方家是不講道理的地方可是我們在軍隊裡面卻說你是我的手足你是我的家人但是你必須要服從我給你的嚴肅紀律我們從什麼地方可以看到國防法的15條我們要嚴格的紀律我們要嚴格的訓練因此我們再回過頭來去思考一下"},{"start":4745.888,"end":4754.379,"text":"用什麼方法可以真的能夠到兼顧人權而不會有衝突的這種狀況出現因此我們回過頭來去思考說"},{"start":4756.175,"end":4782.614,"text":"在修正一部非常重大的法律的時候這兩個法律案有幸我在去年初的時候參加一個論壇的時候就已經看過全部的草案我當時就給予這兩部法律非常高的評價與肯認但是終究我們今天透過這樣一個公聽會的機會可以讓大家一起再腦力激盪看看是不是可以用這兩部法律協助我們的國軍可以達到最好最完美的地步"},{"start":4783.7,"end":4795.451,"text":"我們想要想說一部的法律制定按照我們現行的法制作業我們會去思考在性別平等上面有沒有符合規範我們有沒有相關符合現行國際潮流趨勢的這些做法"},{"start":4796.414,"end":4821.451,"text":"可是我們常常去講一件事情法律的制定有的時候我們必須要有風險意識什麼是風險意識就是未確定的將來有衝擊性的這些東西我們在制定法律之初我們是不是就要應該去思考說我們怎麼樣把那個風險降低所有的法律都必須放到執行的階段我們說徒法不足以執行講的就是這個"},{"start":4822.432,"end":4848.489,"text":"因此當在座的各位立法的先進們委員們在處理這兩部法律的時候我們有的是想一個法律的制定他希望能夠長長久久而真的讓每一個不管是政策面決策的人或者是執行面他們實際上去處理的人都能夠受到這部法律的保護而這部法律也真的能夠達到我們在制定這部法律在第一條講的立法的目的"},{"start":4849.622,"end":4875.945,"text":"因此我們要回過頭來看看這個法律裡面到底有什麼可能的風險我用一點點時間講一個故事各位我們在讀史記的時候會讀到一個叫做李林就是李廣的孫子當時他跟漢武帝爭取說我要去打匈奴殘餘果然當他自己去的時候五千個人去步兵去打騎兵碰到殘餘的主力部隊"},{"start":4877.526,"end":4904.549,"text":"李林即使武功再高強也是一路退退退可是他在退的過程中間造成殘餘非常大的傷害以致打到最後的時候殘餘想說我可能要中計了因為他越來越向他們的官內去退我可能會中計他都決定我第二天就要撤軍了結果當天晚上李林的部隊裡面有一個叫做管桿的軍侯就是一個小官"},{"start":4905.47,"end":4916.463,"text":"因為受到羞辱他心裡不平他投降了他投降到匈奴那邊去他告訴了匈奴殘餘說李玲已經淡盡圓絕了"},{"start":4918.564,"end":4939.738,"text":"因此參與決定不撤軍第二天就繼續打造成了李玲的被俘這個歷史的故事在我們過去讀書的時候其實是非常清楚的我們常常有時候去思考到我們相信所有的國軍都是忠誠的都是願意為國家笑死但這是理想這是不容置疑這是理想"},{"start":4940.518,"end":4964.933,"text":"古今中外有多少的軍人在戰場上因為在關鍵的時刻有人是為國效死的但是也有人就投敵的因此我們在思考我們這兩步關於說能夠鞏固戰力兼顧人權的法案我們能不能做到一個制定的機制說讓我們的這個人權真的是能夠做到刮風不透下雨不漏呢"},{"start":4966.28,"end":4994.146,"text":"有一個機制今天剛好看到法務部也有代表在這邊法務部常年在推動的修復式正義在台灣叫做修復式司法我從實證主義的角度來說我自己從事修復的事務到今天已經10年我們光處理軍中的這些衝突事件我們用修復的程序下去處理的時候我舉一個非常明確的例子我們有某軍種有一個士官 有一個兵一天之內"},{"start":4995.543,"end":5001.632,"text":"暴走對三個市官長暴行同一個單位對市官長暴行很嚴重啊"},{"start":5003.038,"end":5027.03,"text":"震動了單位我們去處理他的修復案件的時候我們發現一件事情如果我們只從要件的角度來看就是我們巨件式的處理你符不符合要件符合我就處分你報刑當然符合法律的規範你該違法的該處理就處理可是這對整個他們單位所造成的影響是極大的因此我們在修復的過程中間我們發現了一個問題"},{"start":5029.051,"end":5054.445,"text":"其實他是在家暴的家庭中長大的孩子他之所以暴走是為了保護他的媽媽當然說來話長我只能簡單說到這邊但是因為他說出了這一個我們從來不知道甚至單位都不知道的事情單位的主觀瞭解到這個事情不是我們看到的那個平面衝突而是他看到這個立體的架構所呈現出來的那個衝突焦點"},{"start":5055.606,"end":5082.143,"text":"因此看見了這個整體的真相的時候單位的主觀的看法就不同簡單說的結論是這個犯錯的兵他最後被太處他被罰辦但是他在離開部隊的時候他向全體的官士兵道歉他們拍個照給我們看而且他非常道歉他還寫了一封信向整個單位的官兵說明他在這個過程中間的不當"},{"start":5083.325,"end":5096.127,"text":"他被判刑以後他寫了一封信給我們他說非常謝謝我們有一個這樣的機制他說我雖然被汰除被判刑但是我在離開部隊的時候我得到的是被我原單位的接納"},{"start":5097.777,"end":5113.913,"text":"這個就讓我們在從事修復食物工作的人有一個非常大的感受就是如何能夠讓一個懲罰的結果是心服口服心悅誠服尤其在一個掌管幾千億玉山的軍隊裡面"},{"start":5115.054,"end":5129.625,"text":"我們多麼希望所有的懲罰、受懲的人以及決定去懲罰的人都能夠在這個懲罰事件中我們可以透過懲罰而得到正面的這種反應而不是成為我們心中的怨恨的來源"},{"start":5130.626,"end":5149.121,"text":"因此我在這邊談談講說我們有的時候後期某些人認為說你那叫修復司法應該只放在司法的領域裡面而不應該放在這種行政的懲罰裡面其實那是外來的名詞它的英文叫做Restorative JusticeJustice你去翻嘛你可以把它翻成正義"},{"start":5150.482,"end":5164.754,"text":"或者我們看現行我們國內已經通過的五部法律或者兩個法規命令裡面其實都沒有講到修復是司法它只有兩個字叫做修復那麼各位去看犯罪背叛保護權益法裡面有一個修復專章"},{"start":5166.275,"end":5183.559,"text":"因此我在這邊想說如果我們真的能夠讓我們的軍人在管理上面或者他受到的處分而他還有一個很清楚的空間可以去說明的時候我們其實是可以講到很多院隊雖然現在國防部有權保會有訴願會但是我們說實在的"},{"start":5186.94,"end":5213.958,"text":"實務上面當事人到現場他往往受限於會議時間的發言他沒有辦法暢所欲言的去說明可是從修復制度的角度來說他卻可以暢所欲言的跟修復的委員們說明這就可以減少到多少多少的衝突甚至有我們常常講說黑箱作業啊或者等等之類在修復的過程中間他們有家人可以進來參與這就是公開而且是適度的公開"},{"start":5214.758,"end":5240.446,"text":"他不會有太多的個資外洩因為是他的家人最後我要說降階這件事情降階他其實對於我們任職條例事件細則11條的導致任職他是相違背的軍隊就這麼小一個人只要被降階你想想看全軍都知道那麼他如何再回過頭來領導他這等於是變相的說我給你一個懲罰但是你就必須離開軍中"},{"start":5242.116,"end":5252.183,"text":"在這種狀況下離開軍中的人他心裡會服嗎因此我最後的結論是求其生而不得皆死者與我皆無恨也謝謝謝謝蔣教授接下來有請中研院法律學研究所吳宗某副研究員"},{"start":5280.785,"end":5303.223,"text":"主席在座各位先進大家好首先我要先簡單自我介紹一下我的出發點我自己是過去也曾經擔任過軍法預官我是在1999年的這個軍事審判法修正之後新制上路之後最早的幾批軍法預官之一我也見識過新制的軍事審判的這個我們一起服役的"},{"start":5305.084,"end":5327.952,"text":"這個同期的同僚、同袍們以及學長、學弟們都在這裡面有很豐富的經驗那另外我也是市之地704號解釋做成過程當中有一些比較深度的參與那704號如各位所知是關於新制的軍法官考試其實對現在來講都已經是舊制了因為那之後又修改過一次"},{"start":5328.712,"end":5333.015,"text":"我並不是對國軍有什麼特別的意見,我的家人還在五指山,所以我跟大家的關係是比較密切的。"},{"start":5351.761,"end":5375.699,"text":"那首先我覺得先講結論好了第一個是我認為這件這個法案在憲政的程序上有一些需要再思考的地方我們現在是在這個總統跟立法院都進行過大選之後新任政府還沒有就職之前所以這樣的法案是不是適合在現在由即將卸任的國防部部長具名來提出而還沒有經過新任部長的這個審閱我個人認為是"},{"start":5379.682,"end":5406.625,"text":"這需要再思考的所以我在實體部分就不再發表太多的意見了那我覺得可以先簡單整理一下跟讓各位回顧一下這個目前這兩部法律其實它有非常漫長的醞釀過程前面發言的前輩們也都已經提到其實我們有一些簡單的參考資料是2016年的時候監察院曾經對這個軍審判法修正之後進行過一個調查當時就曾經邀集過學者專家當然也有"},{"start":5407.165,"end":5407.525,"text":"國防部法律事務司"},{"start":5425.943,"end":5451.332,"text":"今天與會也有不少的先進其實當時已經發表過他們的意見了那我如果簡單中整一下這個研討會的結論的話我相信大家大概都已經聽到即使有這麼多位學者專家來自不同的領域我們可以講得更直白一點大家的人生觀政治觀可能都不太完全一樣可是對於法律面的意見幾乎都是一致的對於這個軍法制度這個都是一致的"},{"start":5452.699,"end":5476.946,"text":"那這個所以我接下來我只要只分成兩個部分講第一個是我想稍微釐清一下我們現在的法律的現狀跟事實的現狀讓大家可以更這個接近溝通的時候可以更接近這個距離可以更加縮短那第二個最後是我想提出一些展望性的建議那在現狀的釐清部分第一個是我們憲政制度的現狀這個"},{"start":5481.212,"end":5504.501,"text":"在這個我剛剛提到研討會裡面其實有與會的學者主要提到大法官直接針對這個軍事審判做成過的解釋第一個是釋字436號是在這個江國慶案發生江國慶槍斃之後大概兩個月做成第二個是這個我剛才提到的釋字第704號大家比較沒有注意那其實這個"},{"start":5506.772,"end":5526.932,"text":"大法官相關的做成的跟審判有關以及跟軍人的地位有關的解釋呢其實還有非常多個我們在436號的意見書裡面特別大家可以注意到這個如果大家回去看那個意見書的話當時的這個其中一位大法官應該是董祥飛大法官應該是董祥飛大法官他"},{"start":5529.619,"end":5545.698,"text":"他提出他有提到說其實這個我國的憲政制度在262號解釋之內的時候已經指出這個軍人如果被監察院彈劾的話他並不是放在軍法體系裡面處理他不是回到軍法裡面去他是到監他是跟大家一樣到公務員懲戒委員會"},{"start":5546.839,"end":5571.401,"text":"所以在他以那個基礎呢他雖然個人是一個外省級的這個大法官在一般民間的角度可能會認為是不是會反而對國軍比較友善其實沒有他其實態度比較嚴厲他認為其實應該把法律的制度全部都一元化應該把軍法的這個審判的工作尊重這個憲法規定說司法院是國家最高的司法機關的這樣的規定把他整個放在司法權底下他是有這個其實非常"},{"start":5572.222,"end":5597.064,"text":"你說是先進不先進我們就不評論但是一個非常激烈非常強烈的意見那在研討會上也有與會的學者提出來說大家應該要注意到市治地這個86號審檢分立審檢分立的工作這個進行到最後現狀當然是變成法務部管檢察官這個司法院管各級法院但是其實在審檢分立做成的時候大多數的意見是希望連"},{"start":5598.745,"end":5624.338,"text":"這個法務部管的檢察官全部都要放在司法院下面這個想法都是很久以前就有的都不是跟民主化都沒有關係都是在這個這個早期的前輩們就都已經提出過的所以其實憲政制度的現狀真的跟這個民主化沒有直接的關係不是民主化造成的大家必須要放在很長時間的這個尺度下來觀察那第二個我覺得需要釐清的是"},{"start":5625.959,"end":5648.554,"text":"我們很常聽見一個簡單的說法其實我現在剛才聽到的一些說法當軍法預官授訓的時候我也都聽過那大家常常說這個軍隊必須要有軍紀軍法是維護軍紀的重要的這個制度之一我想這個就跟社會需要秩序法律是維持秩序的重要工具之一是一模一樣的說法"},{"start":5649.174,"end":5666.376,"text":"這個說法大家都可以接受但是沒有辦法操作是不實際的社會秩序有很多種我們的交通規則是交通秩序的重要一部分大家就不要說交通規則每天有多少違反的狀況但是我們還是每天在運用我們的道路大眾運輸工具"},{"start":5668.478,"end":5686.472,"text":"國軍也是一樣就是這些違法也好犯紀的這些事情在任何的人類的團體組織當中都一定會一直存在所以軍紀是一個非常非常廣泛巨大的概念它其實下面分為不同的手段來操作來進行那具體的這個在"},{"start":5689.456,"end":5711.256,"text":"今天我們這個草案裡面這個懲罰是其實是最直接最接近事實他可能在法律上的這個意義是最小的部分另外有兩個是他的這個比較類似公務員一樣的是懲戒再來就是刑事這三個部分所以我覺得不要一直把軍紀這個帽子抬出來因為軍紀這是一個很大的東西我們要看他是哪一個範圍的軍紀那這個"},{"start":5714.119,"end":5737.868,"text":"另外一個就是大家常常把這個軍紀的維護特別是在軍事刑法的刑事犯的這個狀況只想到處罰其實還有另外一面就是有罪不罰就是有罪不罰有罪不罰聽起來不好那將功責罪聽起來好不好因為軍事長官他的目的如果是要帶兵的時候我的兵就是這麼多我罰了一個往後面送去關了我就少一個兵啊我少一個兵我要怎麼作戰這是很現實的問題所以軍事長官的這個"},{"start":5740.689,"end":5760.141,"text":"全憲並不是只有把一個當事人罰得越重越好其實他會有現狀傷他必須要權衡其他的利益但是這樣子的事情只要發生的時候不管是嚴罰或是不罰一定會有平等權的質疑所以這是法律上必須要去處理的那第三個事情就是"},{"start":5761.762,"end":5774.574,"text":"大家談到說軍法很重要跟這個說法跟軍法的結果必須要很快要速審這兩個是沒有關係的因為大多數軍法案件都是丟到後方去丟到後面的軍事法院去沒有人在戰場這個接戰的"},{"start":5776.435,"end":5792.605,"text":"現地立刻舉行軍事法庭然後例如說就是陣前槍決這個真的是很少很少發生的事情即使是世界各國目前在國際投射兵力的狀況下這種情況都非常少發生所以這個設想本身是非常背離現實的那所以"},{"start":5795.006,"end":5815.247,"text":"接下來我就可以提出我的後面一些展望第一個是我要強調的是人權是國軍的朋友人權不是國軍的敵人這個普林斯頓大學的Linda Coley教授最近出了一本非常受歡迎的書最近翻成中文中文的標題叫《槍砲傳箭與筆墨》他說世界各地的制限運動呢都是因應海陸複合式戰爭"},{"start":5816.388,"end":5840.561,"text":"是一個很貴、人死人很多的戰爭那這種戰爭對於每一個社會都有威脅所以呢每一個社會執政者都趕快跟他的社會要達成新的協調跟共識所以人權本來就是一個徵兵的工具人權就是待遇的一部分人權越好不管我們的兵員是徵也好、牧也好他就是幾副條件所以你的人權保障越好"},{"start":5840.981,"end":5841.621,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":5858.312,"end":5885.56,"text":"總值或界限就會打破這是第一個所以制度好壞不是我們學者說的算全國的異難會公投相信我國的制度的這個外國人想要規劃他也會公投例如說我們有臺灣有同婚他為了要抵抗沒有同婚的中華人民共和國他會願意死啊因為他回到他國家他還是死啊人都會怕死但是如果我只有選擇說我先打那個不好的嘛那最後一個是對不起我只有大概10秒鐘的時間"},{"start":5887.816,"end":5902.308,"text":"最後一個是這個我們整體的法律工作體制在目前為用這兩個法律是沒有辦法處理但是這是我國現狀下基本的問題我覺得我這一輪發言就到這邊之後如果還有機會我再補充就好 謝謝好 謝謝副研究員那接下來我們請林士清助理教授"},{"start":5933.063,"end":5958.479,"text":"主席、國防部的長官還有各位先進大家好我是民傳大學財經法律系的林士勤今天很榮幸可以來這邊表示一些意見因為我自己本身是在法國留學我學的是關於刑事法方面的剛好法國也是少數有軍事審判的國家所以從我回國開始國防部就請我幫他們提供一些比較法上面的一些建議給他們作為一個立法上面的參考"},{"start":5959.399,"end":5986.313,"text":"所以今天我的發言的話我大概就是會從法國的制度上面就我所看到的一些作為一個我們修法上面的一個方向就我自己從法國法的理解來講法國法所設計的軍事的審判軍人的犯罪的處理或者是軍人有過錯的時候的這種處理基本上有兩個很重要的重點就是它是為了維護紀律跟維護軍事的專業性所以在"},{"start":5987.334,"end":6002.153,"text":"這兩個最主要的目的下面就是維護紀律跟維護軍事的專業性下去設計法國的軍人犯罪的時候該怎麼處理跟法國的軍人如果有一些為失或者是有一些過錯的時候我們該怎麼處理好"},{"start":6003.254,"end":6024.913,"text":"那第一個我們來談就是說法國的軍人他如果在執行勤務的過程當中如果在戰記訓練的過程當中或者是在一些安全性的必要或者是在後備時期他如果有一些違反紀律的過錯的時候法國法在這裡他設計成兩個方面第一個就是說你是一個紀律上面的一個違反"},{"start":6026.155,"end":6040.89,"text":"繼續法國的行政懲處分成紀律上面的違反跟專業性的一個違反那我們現在看到的我們要做的陸海空軍懲罰法的修正草案這個比較像法國的紀律性的違反比較像法國紀律性的違反"},{"start":6041.451,"end":6064.634,"text":"那法國沒有所謂的陸海空軍懲罰法的規定法國是把這個行政懲處的規定放在國防法裡面大家都知道我們的國防法有一個第三章有提到軍人的權利義務法國是把它放在法國的國防法裡面軍人權利義務來談那裡面就明擺的講到說軍人有過錯或者是有疏失的時候那麼這個時候他會受到"},{"start":6066.3,"end":6085.687,"text":"所謂的懲處而這個懲處就包括有可能是專業性上面的疏失有可能是紀律的一個違反有這樣子的一種情況那法國的國防法基本上它只用了五個條文來描述來做一個主要的一個架構而這五個條文裡面有很重要的就是包括處罰的種類還有如果跟刑事訴訟有競合的時候的一些"},{"start":6091.169,"end":6091.67,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":6106.832,"end":6120.741,"text":"我國法的《陸海空軍懲罰法》的草案基本上原則上如果應該是擺一些基本性的比如說基本的原理原則或者是跟法律保留有相關就是說基本權干預有相關的東西應該在法律層次那"},{"start":6122.702,"end":6147.736,"text":"無關基本原理原則無關法律保留的東西或許就可以放在所謂的施行細則比方說如果今天你要成立一個調查委員會的時候調查委員會的組成分子調查委員會的成員像這種東西就可以放在施行細則裡面去規範那我想點一個比較我覺得有兩個地方我稍微看到的就是說法國法是把懲罰的種類分成最輕微的第一類第二類跟第三類那"},{"start":6148.857,"end":6174.417,"text":"第一類第二類跟第三類但是我們的話沒有從輕到重我們是分成人事的我們是分成財產處分這樣子我們是分成不同的類型跟他們是從輕分到重這是不一樣的然後我有看到一個比較特別的就是說我們有罰戰這樣的一個制度那在法國法其實是沒有罰戰在國法是有訓誡那我想提到一個剛剛有幾個先進也都有提到一個我對罰戰這個制度其實有一點因為所謂的軍紀"},{"start":6175.858,"end":6193.17,"text":"軍人要服從的軍紀這個軍紀也要保障軍人的尊嚴跟權利這個在法國法也講得很清楚也就是說我們在做懲處的時候要在紀律的維護在尊嚴跟權利之間找到一個平衡那如果今天這個軍人被罰站兩個小時這個有沒有一點違反人性尊嚴的這個"},{"start":6194.611,"end":6218.921,"text":"一律這個我是有疑慮的那第二個齁剛剛有幾個先進提到所謂的降階在法國法齁他把降階歸在第二類就是第二類的那個懲處行政懲處裡面那他不是永久性的降階他是暫時性的降階換句話說如果你受到降階處分的時候最久可以降階6個月但是法國法有規定到說這個人雖然受到降階的處分但是在這個降階過程的"},{"start":6221.262,"end":6246.832,"text":"這6個月當中他當初的那些年資你依然是要幫他我就說你不能夠因為他降階所以叫年資什麼都不計甚至在降階的過程當中如果他的年資符合升遷的機會的時候你也不能因此剝奪他有任何升遷的機會這是我看到的這個部分第二個我想要來談的就是說這次提綱有第二個提到的就是我們的那個陸海空軍懲罰法的第10條裡面有去提到說"},{"start":6252.318,"end":6269.254,"text":"有提到一個比較特別的規定因為就是說我們在陸海空軍懲罰法是在規定說軍人在有什麼樣的過錯有什麼樣的疏失的情況下我們要去處罰這個軍人我們要去處罰這個軍人那我有看到說第10條這個規定它前面這句話我覺得OK就是說軍人對於權責長官的"},{"start":6272.097,"end":6272.177,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":6287.288,"end":6305.822,"text":"處理這裡會衍生出一個問題就是說那到底一個大家知道軍紀為什麼要服從軍紀就是因為作戰的時候我們才有辦法指揮這整個軍隊那你現在要附給這個下級長官下級的署官或者下級的兵對長官有一個命令的審查權的話那會不會到時候你這個軍隊會有一個指揮不動的問題換句話說就是說"},{"start":6310.325,"end":6321.449,"text":"到底下了違法命令衍生了相關的責任這個不應該跟懲罰有關這個應該放在刑法裡面去處理我們在刑法裡面的刑法21條就講這個是正當防衛的問題那在法國法它也沒有處理這樣的一個問題就是說這個條文放在這裡在體系結構上有一點奇怪"},{"start":6329.392,"end":6350.969,"text":"否則的話如果你硬要放在這邊也應該要跟軍紀的維護有關也就是說長官如果因為過失下達了一個違法的指令的時候他應該受到什麼樣的懲處而不是從下屬要不要遵守違法的命令這個角度來談那最後一個我要談的就是說我們在這裡我們在軍人如果有疏失同時構成行政"},{"start":6351.73,"end":6352.911,"text":"在法國法沒有所謂的懲罰法這樣的一個規定"},{"start":6372.205,"end":6397.103,"text":"所以關於行政懲處不放在國防法關於軍事犯罪的這個審理的這個部分有一部分放在法國的軍事審判法有一部分放在法國的刑事訴訟法裡面那從體力上來看因為我們有陸海空軍懲罰法這樣子的一個規定如果涉及到行政程序跟刑事程序競合的這種情況下我們用放在一個專門的規定來處理這個是一個OK的規定那第二個我要談的就是說齁"},{"start":6398.385,"end":6418.565,"text":"這樣的一個規定的存在其實也可以避免軍事審判的那個專業性軍事的專業性被過度的侵蝕為什麼因為當初法國法國原先也有軍事法院來審理軍人的犯罪而當後來呢他把它改掉全部把軍人的犯罪移到普通法院來審理但是法國人避免為了擔心"},{"start":6419.165,"end":6441.067,"text":"移給地方法院之後軍事的專業性會受到過度侵蝕所以它設計了幾個制度第一個你要審理的法官一定要有軍事的知識也就是說地方法院一定要有一個軍事的專業庭有專門知識的法官來負責審理第二個檢察官在做相關起訴或者是相關偵查後續的時候他都要問過國防部的意見"},{"start":6441.687,"end":6459.294,"text":"沒有溫哥國防部的意見他不能有後續相關偵查的一個作為第三個就是說法國法為了確保專業性他還設計了所謂的軍法書記官的人員這個軍法書記官可以配置在法院也可以配置在部隊他是作為一個國防部跟法務部之間法國司法部之間的一個溝通的一個界面跟橋樑負責來專門處理這樣的一個案件"},{"start":6463.115,"end":6485.584,"text":"所以在這樣的一種構思的情況下如果我們的檢察官在辦理軍人案件的時候那能夠透過軍法官來協助辦理透過懂專業的人來協助處理相關軍法的事件的時候我認為這個是可以合乎軍事專業性對軍事專業確保是可以的OK好那今天以上是我的簡短的報告到這邊謝謝大家"},{"start":6488.946,"end":6490.608,"text":"主席 國防部徐副部長"},{"start":6518.976,"end":6547.763,"text":"在座的各機關的代表各位官長還有各位先進大家好我以下先針對今天的這一個公聽會所要討論的兩部法典第一部就是陸海空軍懲罰法修正草案第二部就是軍人權益事件處理法的"},{"start":6549.229,"end":6577.14,"text":"立法這是一個新立法這兩部法典那麼我做一個很簡要的一個不是介紹只是簡要的一個說明陸海空軍懲罰法歷史久遠那麼到今天已經有將近100年了其中也經過了幾次的修正"},{"start":6580.285,"end":6608.818,"text":"但是像這一次這樣的大規模的而且是全方位的在做修正的方式我覺得是一個非常劃時代的進步對於軍中人權以及維護我們的領導統一和國軍戰力具有非常大的幫助"},{"start":6610.578,"end":6637.679,"text":"如果這部法典能夠照我們現在規定的規模順利的完成立法的話我相信這是一個非常好的里程碑沒有一個法典可以說它立了以後就是完美無缺一定是要經過若干時間的驗證不斷的再精進再去修正因為法律是要滿足社會的需要"},{"start":6638.817,"end":6663.841,"text":"社會變遷法律就要跟著變遷這是必然的道理至於軍人權益事件處理法可以講把現行的這一個官兵權益保障委員會來審議我們軍人的這一個受到行政處分或者是相關措施"},{"start":6666.072,"end":6690.029,"text":"就是所謂的行政措施的這種他如果不服而提起申訴的事件再把它更加的深化廣化而且也透過我們軍事法院高等軍事法院的這個勤務庭勤務法庭的這樣子的機制去運作"},{"start":6692.885,"end":6716.929,"text":"並把我們這個官民權益保障委員會放到我們軍事地方法院裡頭去讓它制度化讓它能夠結合這個專業並且有效率的去做審議處理軍人的權益事件這更是大大的保障了軍人的權益"},{"start":6718.288,"end":6746.05,"text":"所以我覺得這兩部法典我個人覺得非常的高興能夠看到國防部尤其在各級長官還有省司長的這幾年的領導之下能夠很認真的在處理這麼重要的兩部法典我覺得這個是非常非常值得肯定那我首先因為今天是審議這兩部法典我也就先依照"},{"start":6747.595,"end":6771.6,"text":"這一個給我們的大綱提綱五個提綱我來提出我個人的看法第一個提綱的第一題是說這一個我們的懲罰法裡面對於各種懲罰的這個執行對象或要件線索是不是一律應該在本法規範可不可以在施行細則中規範等等"},{"start":6778.144,"end":6806.26,"text":"4至443號解釋大致上的意思是說什麼樣的這一個事項應該用法律或者是用這一個法律授權的法規命令或者是用行政規則去規定要看這些事項的性質來決定那我們現行的懲罰法"},{"start":6807.662,"end":6831.931,"text":"其實已經就把各種懲罰的對象包括軍官、士官、士兵還有他要懲罰的種類都規定在憲刑法條裡面的第12條到第14條那對於各種懲罰施予的方法、要件跟計算標準、處分等等在第17條到27條也都有明文的規定"},{"start":6834.739,"end":6848.623,"text":"對於懲罰如何執行在第4章也有規定這現行法就已經是依照443號解釋的意旨並沒有違背那現在呢這一個修正草案仍然也是一本這樣子的立法體例所以我認為我們的修正草案"},{"start":6862.472,"end":6891.272,"text":"有關這一個重要性的必要性的規定是規定在我們的懲罰法修正草案裡面至於把它這一些次要性的需要這一個詮釋性的這一些規定把它放在詳細的放在實行細則我個人的這一個建議是如果還是過於這一個龐大就是這些細部性的規定"},{"start":6895.342,"end":6913.333,"text":"用私刑細則你也沒辦法完全的涵蓋的話也可以用在本法在這一個懲罰法裡面明確的有個法律具體明確的授權去訂定其他的法規命令資委補充"},{"start":6915.228,"end":6925.637,"text":"所以國防部朝此方向去修正草案去準備這一部法典我覺得與443號解釋的這一個意旨是切合的那至於所謂的在這第一題裡面提到的兩個問題對服役28年上校街"},{"start":6940.984,"end":6968.972,"text":"這個上校的這個降級或者是這個剝奪減少退出給予的懲罰這些是不是他的要件等等是不是要規定在法律裡面其實這個我剛剛在我剛剛的說明裡面也可以理解如果要放到施行細則也不是不可以乃至於有法律明確授權具體明確授權而去另外訂定一個專門的法規命令也是可以的"},{"start":6971.991,"end":6996.299,"text":"第二題現行懲罰法第6條將軍人的服從義務比照一般文職公務員明令如果認為長官違背命令並且部署向長官報告在長官以書面下達命令後才有服從的義務這一個如果長官沒有下達命令就視為是撤回命令這一個部分"},{"start":6997.623,"end":7021.873,"text":"這個情形不分命令內容的情況一律要求長官用書面下達這種情況是不是合宜呢在我們軍中命令是實行軍事任務跟奉行軍事紀律的依據命令是不可以任意的無辜的違抗"},{"start":7024.258,"end":7050.76,"text":"按照命令的性質我們大概可以大致上可以把它大分為兩大類第一個就是與軍事有關的命令第二個就是當然就是與軍事不是那麼直接有關的其他軍事以外的命令例如是一般勤務命令或者是勤務以外的命令我們的先行懲罰法第6條"},{"start":7052.95,"end":7081.021,"text":"的這個命令在解釋上這些都包括在內可是我們軍人如果觸犯的是軍事有關的命令那就是所謂的等一下第三題要談到的會有行政法跟這一個刑事法的競合在這種情況下依照我們的依照這一個行政法法第26條的規定一行為如果有刑事法與行政法"},{"start":7082.086,"end":7104.699,"text":"當然是要送到法院去行事法委這個優先處理行政法就暫時就不做了可是26條也講得很清楚其他的這一個行為但其行為處以其他種類行政法或得沒入的這一個規定還是可以依法宣告或裁處"},{"start":7106.072,"end":7134.167,"text":"而且刑事法如果經過不起訴還起訴確定或無罪免訴不受理不負審理等等這一些的話還是可以回來處罰他的行政法的部分所以我認為啊如果說要讓長官啊我覺得這一條國防部啊這個想法我不曉得現在是不是一定要把這一個用書面長官如果覺得還仍然要維持我的這一個命令一定要用書面去下達"},{"start":7135.632,"end":7161.989,"text":"這件事如果還要維持的話我個人有一個疑慮我舉個例子就是長官如果他向部署下達命令是在沒有公開的場合也沒有文字文書落下來就是口頭的命令那部署認為這個命令是違法的向他意見俱深"},{"start":7164.213,"end":7191.806,"text":"並且請他用書面給我一個書面的這個命令如果說我們現在可以把這個要給書面的這個東西刪掉的話那長官說依照現行規定反正都是長官負責嘛但是呢之後果然違法果然有責任部署說我是依照長官你的指示做的"},{"start":7192.711,"end":7219.469,"text":"可是長官說我哪裡有指示過你我完全沒有指示你啊你把白紙黑字拿出來給我看你把錄音拿出來給我看這個時候百口莫辯所以我覺得這樣的情況還是不能排除當初我們會把現行法規定成必須要以素面在下達"},{"start":7220.854,"end":7245.596,"text":"其實也就是基於這個考量所以我覺得這一點如果說國防部認為是可以接受的話其實我覺得如果是現行規定並沒有任何自愛難行也沒有發生過什麼不好的這一個狀況也沒有出過什麼問題現行的規定如果不修倒也無妨這是我個人的前見"},{"start":7248.226,"end":7261.691,"text":"那麼我不曉得時間已經講那麼快就結束了其餘的我都寫在我的書面上敬請各位先進可以來參考我的報告就到這裡結束 謝謝謝謝韓國恩那我們接下來邀請軍中人權促進會黃媽媽陳碧兒"},{"start":7287.758,"end":7312.274,"text":"各位長官各位先進大家好專家我很抱歉我29年的軍中人權活動接觸我有很多很多的實務經驗但是我沒有在現場上的各位的一個專家學者的一個這麼強的一個學士"},{"start":7315.916,"end":7342.642,"text":"那我先銜接一下剛剛韓教授的我都稱呼他韓教授因為當年推動這個全保會成立通過剛開始在制定的時候韓教授付出了相當相當多的心力那我沒有想到20幾年後終於有讓他能夠立法這可能就是要感謝國防部軍法師"},{"start":7345.796,"end":7370.997,"text":"那剛剛韓教授講的在我的實務經歷上真的是碰到了這麼多長官下了令我曾經看聽過一個媽媽她已經哭瘋了因為高莊檢孩子長官教她說你這個多餘的料件因為你家比較近所以先放到你家結果被舉報了私藏軍械"},{"start":7375.776,"end":7377.937,"text":"一台車出去從西瓜園過去"},{"start":7401.078,"end":7416.989,"text":"上校叫兵說你下去偷那個西瓜把那個西瓜採西瓜他沒有說偷這個兵不敢不下去啊他不敢不下去他下去拿了上來之後被原主抓到了人家要告他偷竊軍法欸"},{"start":7422.506,"end":7443.002,"text":"可是他說是我們上校隊長叫我下去的我不敢不下去啊明知道那是違法他不敢不下去但是長官不承認他就必須去擔了這個在我的一個一千多件20幾年一千多件協助的案例上"},{"start":7444.178,"end":7444.338,"text":"主席"},{"start":7464.585,"end":7464.745,"text":"中下階主管"},{"start":7475.236,"end":7491.19,"text":"高階一般也不大會去下這樣的命令所以我希望說師長這邊可能要注意一下還有我最care的師長應該知道我最care的是說這一條說可以賦予部隊長官來對這一些"},{"start":7497.878,"end":7500.699,"text":"副部長也在場師長也在場還有各位專家學者我希望你們幫忙一下"},{"start":7527.528,"end":7554.098,"text":"這一條真的要非常小心部隊最容易出問題的就在主觀裁量權常常有一些主觀的裁量權做出了很多不當跟過分的一個裁處讓這一些部署官士兵受到非常多的一個委屈"},{"start":7555.64,"end":7573.387,"text":"紅樓301會議"},{"start":7573.584,"end":7574.044,"text":"當初﹑當初的"},{"start":7603.139,"end":7620.732,"text":"軍官服役滿一年就可以報退所有的處罰、禮賠、條款歸還給國防部各軍種自己去制定你們知道有多少的問題存在嗎?"},{"start":7621.977,"end":7623.939,"text":"每個軍種他定的理賠金額都不一樣軍醫的理賠高於非官的理賠當然各專業領域人才栽培不容易可是他的標準他的計算到底是怎麼計算的非官的栽培不高嗎"},{"start":7643.13,"end":7666.831,"text":"軍醫的栽培不高嗎?都很高啊都很高可是你們知道在這個軍醫體系裡面長官為了要留人不讓人家退當這一些底下的軍醫官或者相關人員想要退的時候面對高額那麼高額七八百萬一千多萬高額的賠償的時候"},{"start":7669.733,"end":7682.363,"text":"你知道發生多少問題嗎有自殺的有割腕的甚至有拿刀片去割開去自殺這都沒有你們都看不到大家都看不到所以我希望說真的各位幫幫忙這一條我真的非常非常的在意主觀裁量權已經很多了"},{"start":7698.291,"end":7723.745,"text":"已經很大了這兩步法如果修得完善一點我相信對軍中的管理跟人權已經有很大很大的進步它雖然不會是百分之百但是所有我從29年來所接觸的軍方隨著時空環境的變化需要去徵修"},{"start":7725.149,"end":7744.526,"text":"這些條例之外其實規定密密麻麻都是都有啊問題都出在哪裡都出在人為的執行上都出在這裡啊它不是它沒有它出在法律規定上這些規定上"},{"start":7745.615,"end":7754.838,"text":"沒有那麼多所有的長官動不動都說依法行政依法行政事實上根本最不守法的就是他們這些部隊長官最不守法現在雖然有全保會的一個申訴但是因為全保會他沒有法"},{"start":7767.844,"end":7775.649,"text":"他沒有法所以當全保會的委員裁定這一件申訴是不符的時候發回部隊還是回到"},{"start":7779.21,"end":7797.941,"text":"主觀的材料全上所以這裡可以再修法把它立法完成我真的是非常樂觀其成當年我在推動這個法能夠成立的時候真的非常辛苦我整天都守在立法院"},{"start":7798.761,"end":7811.244,"text":"推成立之後韓教授他們真的也付出相當多的一個專業的心力在共同來修訂他那現在蔣司長真的謝謝那這一部分應該全保會這一部分那他委員的聘任還有就委員的聘任是不是說"},{"start":7825.796,"end":7825.856,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7850.273,"end":7850.693,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7869.193,"end":7871.513,"text":"委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":7898.278,"end":7898.478,"text":"OK"},{"start":7927.662,"end":7928.024,"text":"羅美玲委員"},{"start":7938.926,"end":7964.472,"text":"謝謝主席今天非常感謝有這麼多的專家學者提供這麼多的意見讓我們在修法立法的時候有更多的思考剛剛我有聽到蔣大偉教授有提到就是說我們要鞏固戰力我們也要兼顧人權讓每一位軍人的權益能夠受到法律的保護"},{"start":7965.632,"end":7990.109,"text":"那我本期今天想要提到的其實軍人還有一個權益今天大家一直可能都沒有提到因為這一群異難可能也是大家平常可能沒有注意到的一群就是說其實軍人的語言權益也要其實要說到保障那其實有很多這個旅居在可能從小就是旅居在國外的一群孩子"},{"start":7991.646,"end":8012.203,"text":"可能在服役的時候他們就回到台灣那也有一群新住民子女可能從小就回到媽媽的母國去那對中文是非常的不熟悉那等到服役的時候呢他們就回到台灣來做服役可是問題是呢前陣子其實發生了好幾件這個事件就是"},{"start":8013.644,"end":8014.024,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":8034.571,"end":8059.637,"text":"真的是格格不入到後來是以智能偏低來驗退這是一個非常遺憾的一件事情純粹就是因為語言的關係那另外去年也曾經發生一件事情也有一位從美國回來的這個孩子他滿腔熱血回到台灣來服役結果跟同袍之間溝通也是非常非常的不佳到後來發生了這個霸凌的事件"},{"start":8062.858,"end":8063.198,"text":"國防部委員會委員會委員會"},{"start":8088.65,"end":8089.171,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":8104.974,"end":8106.436,"text":"建議在我們軍權法的第37條附審就書面審查決定之其實這裡我們可以就他們的這個權益救濟需求我和他們在提起這個附審申訴在申訴或行政訴訟的時候"},{"start":8122.115,"end":8137.368,"text":"我們不能因為他的語言不同導致他的權益受損所以希望國防部這裡可以參酌刑事訴訟法第99條提供其必要的同意服務確保他的權益這是本期在這裡提出的一點以上謝謝謝謝羅美玲委員接下來我們邀請林楚英委員發言"},{"start":8156.196,"end":8173.474,"text":"謝謝主席各位立法院的同仁我們與會的各位學者專家跟先進感謝剛剛你們都提供了專業的建議那麼本期其實是來自於民間我想在於民間當中一個公司最重要的是他必須要有一個公司的治理雖然"},{"start":8174.215,"end":8174.415,"text":"本集今天出來發言"},{"start":8194.264,"end":8201.765,"text":"是支持國防部來針對陸海空軍懲罰法律辦法的草案跟軍人權益事件的處理的草案相關來做修法的給予肯定跟支持我們都知道如果是以企業體來說的話有許多龐雜龐大的企業體他也必須要有企業體內部的一些相關的管理辦法來做內控、內機以及工作的管理那麼這一次的修法當中其實我們知道的是在草案當中有提到修正案因為"},{"start":8222.369,"end":8238.527,"text":"公務員跟軍人不同所以要精簡軍中的行政流程但是是否能以軍事實務的需要這麼簡單的一個推論那麼就能夠降低國軍地修中的程序保障這個部分我是希望國防部也能夠審慎的思考"},{"start":8240.009,"end":8246.391,"text":"那麼另外就是一間公司在設計跟執行它的內控的時候那麼它因為會有所屬的產業不一樣它會有不一樣的行政的法則包括本席過去其實是待在財政委員會金融監理以及金融監督對於這些金融系統來講它是非常重要的所以它會有一些相關的內規跟法則是符合金融業它的產業面所需求的"},{"start":8266.118,"end":8288.973,"text":"那麼我會用這樣的比喻是因為我相信在場不論是專家學者或者是現在國防部的這些長官們官員們你們其實是更了解在一個部隊的帶領底下所需要的部分他有他需要的但是呢陸海空軍的這個懲罰法上面上一次修正我們也都知道就是因為軍中發生了紅中秋這樣子讓大家其實都不願意"},{"start":8290.596,"end":8296.875,"text":"再來面對一次那麼陳舊的法規確實是有其修正的必要所以說這一次"},{"start":8298.035,"end":8317.273,"text":"的這樣的一個修法很感謝今天主席開了這個公聽會讓專家學者的意見能夠表達出來我們也希望其實給予軍人榮譽之外那麼在軍人的紀律當中如何的有效來推動那麼如何能夠在因應現有的這個規定之下能夠讓優質"},{"start":8320.316,"end":8331.433,"text":"的國人不論男女都願意投身軍旅我想這是非常重要的所以在一定的法規之內那麼保障他們的權益我想這也是非常重要的謝謝"},{"start":8333.234,"end":8358.192,"text":"好 謝謝林楚瑩委員接下來進行發言委員徐曉新委員徐曉新委員徐曉新委員不在鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員鍾嘉斌委員不在那我們目前專家學者跟本院委員的發言告一個段落現在請行政機關代表做回應和說明我們責成業管機單位國防部法律司省市委司長來代表回應請"},{"start":8362.182,"end":8363.288,"text":"我們時間5分鐘夠不夠?夠了,好"},{"start":8367.645,"end":8395.956,"text":"主席各位今天與會的專家學者各位先進大家好我是國防部法律事務司司長那我今天就很簡單的就剛剛各位先進所各位專家學者剛剛在整個過程當中所提的一些一些問題我做一個很簡單的一個相關的一個回覆首先真的是非常的感謝就是大部分剛剛我所聽到的剛剛的先進們對於這個我們要做這兩"},{"start":8397.036,"end":8411.842,"text":"兩國法律的一個立法大部分都是持著一個比較正面的一個態度這個我們非常的感謝那這整個立法的這個過程我在先前在詢答的時候我有跟立法院的一些長官委員有做了一些報告"},{"start":8413.122,"end":8433.193,"text":"我簡單的回應一下,剛剛各位老師有提到有關於我們這個立法有關於跟國軍的人權的問題跟管理上面的問題,其實確實我們今天之所以要修這兩部法律,我們就是希望說能夠讓管理的方式或是說執行的層面能夠更明確"},{"start":8433.473,"end":8433.793,"text":"主席"},{"start":8451.485,"end":8451.665,"text":"國防局局長"},{"start":8468.928,"end":8488.958,"text":"目的也就是希望說在人權的方面能夠做一個一個比較進步的一個規範那第二個就有關於剛剛也是今天提綱裡面講的就有一些規範不足的地方可不可以透過透過施行細則或是法規命令的方式來做那我們自己有盤點一下我們這一次的相關的法律的條文除了條文的規範以外"},{"start":8489.778,"end":8517.438,"text":"我記得當初授權要訂定兩部法律要訂14個法規命令這14個法規命令裡面我們會把一些該規範的東西我們都會納到那個裡面去那同樣的今天的議題裡面也有講到原來我們在調查專章裡面會把一些刑事程序的規範有放到這個裡面來那確實這是比較過去比較少見的但是我們今天之所以會這樣子放也是希望說能夠不要再去動"},{"start":8518.299,"end":8533.178,"text":"因為我們在危機事件裡面,如果觸犯到相關違法情況的時候,能夠做一個有效的一個處理,在接受檢查官的指揮之下做一個有效的處理,能夠讓所有的這些案件能夠做一個比較明確的一個規範。"},{"start":8534.44,"end":8550.642,"text":"另外剛剛也有很多先進還有剛剛黃媽媽也有講到說有關於那個權責的問題不光是罰款不光是降階那這些我們在未來的在相關的法規裡面我們會定那罰款的話尤其我上次剛好有機會跟黃媽媽碰面她也特別有講"},{"start":8551.863,"end":8559.505,"text":"說部隊長的這個權責這個權責確實我們現在現在的陸海空軍懲罰法的事情細則它本來就有針對什麼樣的懲罰授權到什麼樣的階層是有的譬如我們講撤職撤職是軍人最嚴厲的一個懲罰它並不是所有的人都能夠去行使撤職的這個種類那未來針對罰款也是一樣我們認為說"},{"start":8577.87,"end":8590.843,"text":"參考公務員的規範縱算有5000到100萬的罰款但是也不是一個連長或是一個排長我們自己目前內部有過有一些草案的一個規劃並不是給授權到很基層的人都會去做這種懲罰那什麼樣的權責的主觀"},{"start":8594.687,"end":8614.496,"text":"中校階營長級以上的主官甚至於上校階旅長級以上的主官然後他可能可以給予比如說5萬元以下的一個法寬的一個權限或是說8萬元、3萬元等等那這個我們會做一個相關的討論那至於降階剛剛有非常多的前輩也提到了降階降階確實"},{"start":8616.437,"end":8638.308,"text":"在先前因為法令不是很完備所以說有了降階的這個種類但是一直都沒有做因為降階它將來要怎麼樣的復職會有一個很大的一個問題那這一次我們還是把降階這個保留呢因為我們也有參考外國的立法例確實外國立法例他們有這些相關的規定那我們把降階放在這個地方就是因為"},{"start":8639.629,"end":8658.767,"text":"軍人我剛剛報告過最重的懲罰是撤職撤職是連軍人身份都沒有他過去所累積的年資他可以領的退休金等等通通都沒有了那降階是我們希望說對於行為相對來講比撤職還要輕微的一些基層軍官也好甚至於高階軍官也好"},{"start":8659.307,"end":8679.012,"text":"我們希望說能夠有一個降階的這個彈性,如果他還願意留在軍中的話,那他還是可以繼續服役,他可能單位去做一些調整,那這個部分的話是有關於降階,那至於降階,原來委員有提的一些相關的一些限制,那這些限制我們將來可能會在細節裡面來去做一些相關的一個討論"},{"start":8680.672,"end":8702.952,"text":"最後還有兩點就是剛剛羅委員有提到的一個語言的問題我想這個是一個很寶貴的一個意見我們在陸海空軍懲罰法裡面在調查上面如果在語言限制有障礙的話那我們有一個相關的規範那至於救濟法的這個部分的話我們覺得將來這個我們一定會注意那委員如果說有提的這個相關的修正動議的話我們也站在我們的立場我們也很樂意來配合"},{"start":8704.193,"end":8718.404,"text":"那最後面就是剛剛還有蔣教授提到的這個有關於修復斯正義的這個問題那確實我們國軍目前在最近幾年尤其是空軍還有陸軍都有在做修復斯的有關於"},{"start":8719.445,"end":8719.465,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8738.482,"end":8757.171,"text":"在體力上面跟其他的那個制度的概念上面可能會有一點點的還可以討論那所以說但是修復的這件事情我們並不會說沒有放進去就不做任何案例只要是可以不論是離開或是他接受了任何的懲罰然後只要是能夠讓他"},{"start":8758.812,"end":8760.233,"text":"請問一下法務部有沒有補充說明司法院有沒有補充說明"},{"start":8789.875,"end":8805.148,"text":"國安局有沒有補充說明?教育部?沒有?你們如果說要我會很驚喜,可以啊海委會有沒有要補充說明?沒有本期提醒國防部,國軍是很重要的"},{"start":8806.294,"end":8824.008,"text":"但國軍是人組成的我們常常在討論國防部的時候都誤以為國防部無所不能什麼都能做命令下達什麼都能執行然後背了一大堆責任在身上要求了一堆事情在身上然後最後一層一層往下跌越基層越倒楣"},{"start":8825.106,"end":8854.366,"text":"所以我本期在看這兩個法我提醒國防部參考就是說當然我們要思考法是不是有周延有沒有橫頻有沒有符合比例原則然後呢我們部隊是一個紀律單位所以要求的是紀律管理嚴明可是我們又希望保護他的人權希望能夠有人性這兩個看起來是好像可以說得很平和其實這兩個有一些地方是會抵觸的加上主觀的感受不同你認為你很開明跟我講話我覺得我受了委屈很嚴厲"},{"start":8855.026,"end":8855.111,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":8856.24,"end":8885.62,"text":"他沒辦法量化所以在訂這個法律的時候彈性不要太多、空白授權不要太多會讓我們你知道嗎在執行這一套法律的基層官士兵都30歲上下而已都是年輕人血氣方剛的年輕人所以當這個法授權給他可以去做這樣的事情這是好事我們的處罰有法為所本我們的救濟有法律為根本以前權保啊什麼都有點像在行政程序走而已那"},{"start":8886.62,"end":8911.709,"text":"當法授權給這一群我們國家重要的國軍弟兄姊妹們年輕人的時候可能各位將領比較年長了你們也經過那個時間就要去思考這個法握在手上的時候有沒有過多的授權有沒有產生哪怕一萬個出一件事情我們都受不了這本席做提醒另外圖法不足以自行我們訂了這兩個法條文那麼多沒人會背啦"},{"start":8912.569,"end":8934.995,"text":"但是你給他一個簡單指令授權之後這個人的素質夠不夠專業素養夠不夠人員的量夠不夠我的處理的工具夠不夠這裡面其實可能國防部的長官們可能多費一點心我們寧可把他修對修好來而不要建立一個法今天學者專家花一個早上時間我特別謝謝黃媽媽妳半天來"},{"start":8937.275,"end":8960.536,"text":"來提供寶貴的意見,還有書面要給我們這個法是我們的共同完成的事情,有一天如果會變共業的話,我們都要一起面對所以今天非常感謝我們與會的學者專家,謝謝你們的寶貴時間也謝謝我們相關夜館的主管機關,你們來參與聆聽,務必把它做好我們在委員會這裡,議事人員會在週三上午"},{"start":8963.098,"end":8978.141,"text":"把逐字稿打好送給每一位參與審查法案的委員來做參考另外因為本週三下午聯席審查就要討論這個本次公聽會探討的兩部法律相關提案如有委員"},{"start":8978.902,"end":8994.611,"text":"或黨團要提修正動議本席再一次提醒請於週三上午10點半前送交議事人員以便會診並於當天下午印發遇時我們就沒辦法處理了否則這個法會沒辦法收斂"},{"start":8996.152,"end":9010.13,"text":"另外今天的公聽會發言到此結束所有的發言都將列入紀錄刊登立法院公報如果與會人員有書面補充或復見請於今天會後下班之前"},{"start":9012.593,"end":9031.692,"text":"5點半之前提交給我們議事人員我們一併會會診進入我們國家的公報裡面那今天所有發言都已結束另外有莊瑞雄委員、黃仁委員提供書面意見一併列入立法院公報本次公聽會到此結束大家辛苦散會"}]}},{"id":"15881","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15881","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/bfaf9b39ac01a685d5d059b51b1cfc7090a0be61fea148183be8d109af184be4261f371f5c0ea4ce5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會（事由：舉行「全民健康保險醫療給付費用總額之現況與展望」公聽會）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-06","委員名稱":"完整會議","start_time":"2024-05-06T08:30:30+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-06T12:16:00+08:00","duration":13530,"影片長度":"03:45:30","委員發言時間":"08:30:30 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臺灣社會心理復健協會秘書長藤希華財團法人 臺灣醫療改革基金會執行長林雅慧長庚大學醫務管理學系教授盧瑞芬盧教授國立陽明交通大學衛生福利研究所教授李育春教授"},{"start":2237.728,"end":2265.245,"text":"臺北醫學大學醫務管理學系教授 邱鴻毅教授財團法人 中華民國消費者文教基金會 名譽董事長 謝天仁 謝董事長國立臺灣大學健康政策與管理研究所兼任教授 楊明清 楊教授臺灣醫院協會理事長 李飛鵬 李理事長"},{"start":2267.818,"end":2277.981,"text":"臺灣私立醫療院所協會 吳明彥秘書長臺灣醫務管理學會 洪子仁理事長臺灣社區醫院協會 朱益洪理事長中華民國護理師護士工會全國聯合會 紀淑敬理事長"},{"start":2294.5,"end":2301.922,"text":"中華民國區域醫院協會陳志忠顧問中華民國開發性製藥研究協會陳全文秘書長國立臺灣大學公共衛生學院鄭守夏院長蘇清泉委員"},{"start":2325.027,"end":2346.661,"text":"邱政軍委員那今天的行政機關代表我們的周之浩次長中央健康保險署石崇亮署長社會保險司劉玉娟司長行政院主計總處基金預算處專門委員黃厚吉專門委員"},{"start":2351.752,"end":2365.462,"text":"公務預算處 廖玉琳 專門委員國家發展委員會 人力發展處 謝嘉怡 處長那接下來請衛福部代表報告時間5分鐘那其他兩個機關各3分鐘"},{"start":2375.29,"end":2393.844,"text":"委員 主席 委員 以及各位專家學者 各位女士先生大家早安 大家好今天貴委員會召開全民健康保險醫療給付費用總額的一個現況以及展望公聽會本部列要應邀"},{"start":2396.784,"end":2426.008,"text":"列席參與,我們非常的榮幸,敬請各位委員不吝指教。全民健康保險實施初期的時候,我們是採取論量計酬的支付制度,也因為醫療院所當時缺乏分擔財務貢獻的這些誘因,因此在健保初期的時候,醫療支出遠高於保險的收入,對於健保的財務造成非常沉重的壓力,未能夠有效地控制醫療的這些費用,於是就導入了"},{"start":2426.608,"end":2440.642,"text":"建保總額支付的制度建保總額支付制度到目前實施已經26年了面臨現在新的一些科技及人口老化等等這些挑戰因此委員也就提出了建保法的第62條的修正案"},{"start":2442.283,"end":2454.852,"text":"現在將現行的健保總額支付制度由支出上限的制度改為支出目標的制度保障健保點值為1.0.95元或者是1.1塊錢經過我們這樣推估的話如果是這樣做大約需要增加預算約750億及1155億元的這些經費"},{"start":2468.582,"end":2468.722,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":2486.735,"end":2486.755,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2510.123,"end":2516.13,"text":"我們認為改革需要社會的共識這次的健保法第62條的修正將會牽動整個相關的健保制度所以說我們必須還是要謹慎以對同盤考量整體的相關配套"},{"start":2526.081,"end":2545.676,"text":"讓總額能夠在適度的成長支援合理的分配維持健保的永續同時也能夠照顧到醫療人員獲得合理的薪資待遇更重要的民眾的就醫品質能夠獲得確保今天的公聽會有4個討論的提綱我就不分別再重複了接下來"},{"start":2547.667,"end":2573.945,"text":"那希望能夠藉由今天的公聽會我們大家能夠聽聽看各界的聲音那最好當然是能夠達成共識那我們承蒙大院各委員和指教和監督我們非常謝謝大家那同時也希望各位委員持續的支持那接下來會有我們健保署的同仁跟各位簡報後面的各提綱的一個簡要的說明以上報告"},{"start":2581.21,"end":2605.12,"text":"蘇長要做報告嗎書面簡報嗎跟主席報告就是我們另外有準備一份簡報那因為不知道有多少人我們只提供給委員所以其他的專家可能沒有所以是不是要放出來還是"},{"start":2609.385,"end":2610.507,"text":"請行政院主計總處代表報告"},{"start":2642.232,"end":2656.707,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位與會的各位專家學者主席總署今天很榮幸應邀來參加這個公聽會那以下就簡要報告那有關健保的整個保險收支其實是106年度就呈現短處"},{"start":2657.788,"end":2679.801,"text":"那為了避免這個安全準備低於我們的下限那改善財務狀況其實已經陸續有進行了很多這個措施例如說提升保費調高我們的健保投保金額上限等等那另外呢政府為了紓減這個健保的財務壓力在112跟本年度都有分別撥補健保的240億元及200億元來改善健保整體的財務紓緩他的壓力"},{"start":2686.105,"end":2710.305,"text":"本次委員提案要修正健保法第62條是要把醫療服務的點值在不低於0.95或1元的狀況下由公務預算來補足這個形同是將我們的健保總額制改成按服務量來計籌涉及整體重大的制度變更另外依衛福部的估算如果把點值"},{"start":2711.305,"end":2736.168,"text":"補足到億元每年需要將近1100多億元那將會大幅增加政府的財政負擔影響我們政府的財政健全那以我們的預算法或是財政收支化分法的規定相關的法律案事實上應該要同時彌補指明這個彌補財源或是有抵出相對的收入那基本上目前這樣的法案是不是違反我們預算法跟財政收支化分法"},{"start":2736.909,"end":2737.949,"text":"接下來請國家發展委員會代表報告"},{"start":2776.438,"end":2795.538,"text":"主席、各位委員、各位女士先生今天貴人會舉行全民健保醫療費用總額的一個現況與展望的公聽會本會應邀出席非常感到榮幸我以下僅就國發會的部分跟各位做一個說明"},{"start":2796.158,"end":2813.573,"text":"大家都知道我們現在的健保總額制度是從87年分科推動到91年全面實施那這整個程序都是衛福部提報了草案然後到經過健保會的一個諮詢之後到行政院核定"},{"start":2814.673,"end":2838.568,"text":"這個行政院合併 承包行政院之後會交易給本會本會會邀請各界的專家學者還有相關的部會主要是來檢視總額範圍草案的一種它的公式的組成 項目協商因素的合理性但也會關注 特別是關注我們人口結構及金社環境變化下的醫療需求對健保財務的影響"},{"start":2842.47,"end":2857.295,"text":"更重要的是我們還要重整考量我們整體社會的一個負擔包括民眾的付費能力還有我們整體醫療資源運用的妥適性然後我們來提供行政院合理的一個總額範圍建議那在我們行政院合定之後還會交由健保會來進行協商那這是整個我們來經過了多年"},{"start":2868.339,"end":2891.349,"text":"通過這樣的一個集體協商還有同儕制約這樣的一個機制那我想這這麼多年來對於合理的來調控醫療費用的成長還有資源的分配已經有相當的成效那這對於民眾一個合理的一個財務負擔也有還有健保的一個穩健都有一個相當大的注意"},{"start":2891.929,"end":2891.949,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2910.194,"end":2910.214,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":2928.735,"end":2928.855,"text":"主席"},{"start":2954.646,"end":2955.047,"text":"行政單位報告"},{"start":2969.12,"end":2994.567,"text":"專家學者還有委員的意見我相信可以列入未來我們行政單位要修法的一個參考那上禮拜在未還委員會已經針對健保法第62條有做充分的討論那今天我相信很多專家學者的這個意見都非常的寶貴那我們希望就是說這個健保點值的"},{"start":2995.007,"end":2995.047,"text":"主席"},{"start":3024.555,"end":3032.267,"text":"本次會議部會及學者專家所提供的相關書面資料均列入紀錄刊登公報"},{"start":3034.029,"end":3053.559,"text":"議會人員發言前先宣告以下事項學者專家及本院委員每位發言時間6分鐘為簡報方便學者專家發言請至主席台右邊的發言台原則上由學者專家先行依簽到順序發言委員如"},{"start":3054.379,"end":3070.484,"text":"要發言請到主席臺登記那現在委員的這個登記順序也列進去了那全部人員發言結束後再請行政機關做整體回應暫定10點30分休息10分鐘好那現在請臺灣社區醫院協會理事長朱義宏理事長發言"},{"start":3083.954,"end":3106.158,"text":"主席 各位委員 各位學者專家 還有我們各位長官 大家早安 大家好我是臺灣社區醫院協會的理事長朱一鴻 也是臺灣醫院協會的副理事長那今天很榮幸受邀來參加這樣子的公聽會那我有準備幾張投影片 下一張"},{"start":3112.065,"end":3125.452,"text":"首先我想這個議題大家都非常清楚就是我們總額現在從民國92年醫院總額開始做那大家常常聽到的說我買一瓶可口可樂現在要36塊錢那事實上醫院的這個藥這個藥大概是葡萄糖水500%cc的葡萄糖不到20塊錢"},{"start":3136.978,"end":3160.376,"text":"真正的是這個幾副的大家比一下就是差了人家的50%這個我們健保下一張再過來一個我這個隨便在網路上找的2018年6月29號的報導通一個水管一尺200塊然後人家去找廠商去通要喊價8000塊我們健保氣管內插管835點"},{"start":3166.774,"end":3177.537,"text":"這個830還是最近這幾年才調的以前它更低830還要乘上所謂的浮動點值所以只有701塊這個就是我們健保現在總額給付的現況那剛剛包括國發會包括我們主計總處講了很多都希望說我們在體制內來進行總檢討進行健保的檢討其實這個話我已經聽了大概20年了"},{"start":3192.728,"end":3207.309,"text":"我已經聽了20年了從來也沒有檢討過阿阿為什麼沒有檢討因為政府沒有財務壓力所有的給付不足的時候全部把這個壓力放在醫療提供者那怎麼就是用這個典詞浮動嗎下一張"},{"start":3211.447,"end":3217.029,"text":"這張是健保署公告的在網路上可以查到公告的所謂的浮動點子大概在0.9到0.92甚至有時候會高到0.9798"},{"start":3224.291,"end":3245.384,"text":"不同顏色是不同分區那下面這個數字那這個資料是臺北業務組在開會的時候他們提供給委員的資料那當然我這個提出來並沒有經過他們同意但是我想這也是一個公開的資料所以我這邊拿出來讓大家看一下看起來好像大概並不是像大家想像的那麼差嘛大概有0.9293"},{"start":3250.441,"end":3275.55,"text":"但是實際上健保署沒有跟大家講的特別是在座幾位立法委員要跟各位報告還有我們召委特別跟大家這個是健保署沒有跟大家講1.1元是個很粗的紅線實際上從106年的第一季開始那大概它的點值只有在0.8到0.85之間浮動點值甚至疫情過後大概低到0.7"},{"start":3277.592,"end":3300.598,"text":"這是我們平常在網路上看不到的東西但是醫界現在實際上面臨的問題就是當你政府不去檢討總額這個越來越大的服務量那麼大的時候點值膨脹點值的成長率大於你的總額的錢的時候政府不去檢討這件事情的時候最後結果就是這樣因為所有的財務責任由醫界承擔"},{"start":3301.818,"end":3303.359,"text":"政府給付總額就是打折"},{"start":3329.909,"end":3336.036,"text":"那這個更驚人的一張投影片給大家看這是臺北分局的資料啦從106 107年開始這個給各位看一下這個這一行的數字這一行的數字"},{"start":3348.257,"end":3367.86,"text":"那從最近的月份就最近的這一年從111年的第4屆到112年第3屆光台北分局被所謂攤扣的金額大概就100億光台北分區被攤扣的金額就100億什麼叫攤扣就是為了要達到"},{"start":3369.401,"end":3386.895,"text":"達到這一張投影片所顯示的數字實際上是這一張為了要公布是這一張所以就用攤扣的方式所以光台北分局一年大概就扣掉快要100億這個其實非常驚人的一個數字我快講完了"},{"start":3387.423,"end":3402.397,"text":"那當然這個事情在這個委員會的時候學務部長講沒有配套健保撐不過兩年我相信啦因為確實沒有配套那個財務會失控財務會失控那我覺得是要配套"},{"start":3403.078,"end":3429.298,"text":"但是總額實施了從我從106年開始 其實更早的資料也都有從106年開始政府沒有任何做任何的配套來檢討這件事情甚至我在健保會都提出來說政府是不是要檢討一下為什麼我們給付的金額跟點數有那麼的大的差距而且在疫情過後差距變得更大事實上政府沒有檢討所以我覺得說這個是我引用這個吳明賢吳院長講的"},{"start":3431.44,"end":3448.577,"text":"因為沒有合理的收益會動搖醫療體系事實上現在醫療體系已經在搖中現在已經是七八級的地震在搖了再過一下可能就要垮了那我想說藉著這次的修法蘇慶堅委員跟國民黨這次的修法藉著這次的修法"},{"start":3449.258,"end":3450.139,"text":"中華民國開發性製藥研究協會秘書長陳全文秘書長"},{"start":3487.502,"end":3507.198,"text":"主席及各位在座的專家學者長官們大家好我是中華民國開發性資料協會簡稱叫IRPMA我是秘書長陳全文我沒有準備簡報資料但是我們要說的話在IRPMA在去年委託的資層有做了一本臺灣健康投資的報告書"},{"start":3508.479,"end":3509.4,"text":"中文版 英文版"},{"start":3523.516,"end":3543.428,"text":"可以到我們IRPM網站來下載那我這邊要講的是說總額的影響不是只有點子打折這一件事情我們在這份健康投資報告裡面有提到其實我們的新藥的可敬性事實上已經落後了國際我們跟日本比較從把2017年到2022年這段時間"},{"start":3546.651,"end":3564.327,"text":"經過查登上市的新藥的給付率在日本是99%臺灣是只有41%其中大家比較關注的是癌症新藥的給付那上市在日本上市的35個癌症新藥裡面日本是百分之百給付臺灣只有37%"},{"start":3566.269,"end":3587.029,"text":"受到給付所以在大家在討論這個點子打折同時要保障點子一點醫院的同時其實我有兩點的呼籲有兩個必須第一件事情就是要以病人為中心我們要保障病人得到適切治療的權利所以新藥可靜性落後國際這個問題必須要解決"},{"start":3591.018,"end":3616.718,"text":"那第二件事情就是在總額幾乎不足的情況之下長期的以藥養醫的現象然後造成了對於藥價的壓制對於藥劑的生存空間的壓抑所以已經衝擊到藥品供應的穩定性我想這個問題也必須要解決所以我在這邊呼籲說要解決在討論點子一點議員的同時也要把我兩個必須一起考慮進去謝謝大家"},{"start":3620.724,"end":3620.845,"text":"陳秘書長陳昭資委員"},{"start":3633.9,"end":3662.489,"text":"主席、各位委員及專家代表那2014年總統大選三黨的候選人都對於一個提高臺灣的健康投資有共同的共識那本黨也是支持這個點值要有一定的保障但是由政府來撥補畢竟不是長久之計因為沒有辦法確定這個財源是穩定的那健保第一個十年我覺得是全民皆大歡喜了民眾跟這個醫療大家都滿意度很高那第二個十年其實開始面臨一些財務的挑戰"},{"start":3663.689,"end":3663.829,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":3684.795,"end":3684.815,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3710.396,"end":3712.118,"text":"財務困窮越來越大我現在會用這兩句話來形容臺灣的健保小病保得好"},{"start":3727.375,"end":3742.109,"text":"大病有缺口這是我們要的健保嗎這符合社會保險的精神嗎因此在提高健保的同時健保點植的同時我們主張有幾個配套措施一方面避免因為論量濟酬帶來的無可避免的衝量行為那一方面也是說因為論量濟酬很難免的有時候會有服用濫用的這些事實"},{"start":3754.239,"end":3773.011,"text":"建保支付架構如果不改善包括納入醫療品質衡量這樣做法才是讓整個建保永續而且成為臺灣真正護國神山的保障因此在提高建保點值的同時我們主張有幾點配套措施第一個消除因為專業服務不足"},{"start":3774.892,"end":3774.912,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3798.593,"end":3801.174,"text":"整體醫療機構大概只佔GDP的5.5的健保因為它未能及時去對應人口結構的急劇的改變造成醫院普遍的要仰賴這個要價差來做一部分的彌補那當點值提高的時候我們要同時處理"},{"start":3820.245,"end":3820.265,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3839.6,"end":3865.589,"text":"第三點就是只需要要依法退出健保給付為了幫助整個醫療資源能夠有效的運用跟合理的分配那落實醫療分級刻不容緩那除了各級醫院的分工之外請記得要將社區藥局納入分療醫級體系全世界早就推行了三四十年的這個自我照護那但是從未落實在台灣我們應該鼓勵小病症交由社區藥局藥師來照顧"},{"start":3867.89,"end":3867.91,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":3886.781,"end":3910.652,"text":"一旦退場會逐漸改變人民的這個就醫行為會到社區去購買根據健保署的評估只要每人每年每一個人一次就醫我們就可以省下375億點值這個最後的影響會非常的深遠那為了恢復台灣的醫療而且我們曾經是明月前茅的一個榮景但是現在不是了現在包括這個"},{"start":3911.792,"end":3920.438,"text":"平均餘密、癌症存活率、新症候選等等都在OECD國家全盤接輸這不是人才問題而是資源的問題所以我們建議要健保支付要納入有關品質的進步方案例如已經做一半卡住的DRG還有這所謂的論值計酬Pay for performance然後以治療的結果為導向的包括幾副Occam based bundle payment"},{"start":3941.454,"end":3969.951,"text":"我覺得健保署應該用獎勵的方式來鼓勵各個醫療機構提出更可行而且可受公平的透明化的醫療品質方案我們用品質來爭取合理的給付這個是在我們把點值提高的這個論量計的方式說一個很重要的配套措施好那麼結論是本黨還有我個人都非常支持醫療點值要受到保障但是我們也要求有以下的配套措施其中有4點第一個"},{"start":3972.014,"end":3978.336,"text":"提高專業服務費讓醫院跟醫師能夠正正當當的來賺錢第二個只是要退出這個醫法要退出這個市場第三個要價差要合理化每年幾百億是不是要做檢考要去面對了不要再一直閃避回躲最後我們要希望能夠有進步法案在我們的醫療制度裡面再以品質為導向來爭取更合理的給付謝謝"},{"start":4001.769,"end":4007.433,"text":"好 謝謝陳昭芝委員的發言接下來請台灣私立醫療院所協會秘書長吳明彥 吳秘書長發言"},{"start":4012.137,"end":4034.235,"text":"主席各位那謝謝大家有機會讓我來報告那我的標題就是健康投資增加WHA一直要求的所謂的醫療韌性那大概大家這兩個圖一定常常看到就是臺灣現在健保都評為世界第一一個是Lambio一個是CEO那我們不反對臺灣的政府拿這個去對外宣因為臺灣的外交處境很困難"},{"start":4034.915,"end":4052.164,"text":"但實際上這位專家寫者實際上你們去看這個問卷是有盲點的因為為什麼第一個CEO我的問全世界跨國公司的CEO哪一個國家的醫療可信性最好哪一個國家的醫療會用富德起當然台灣第一啊台灣的同學就問這個問卡達夫就如果知道就問CEO問題是地塊會不會比較重要嘛是立法委員你們是掌握你們是幫台灣的人民要投資"},{"start":4065.792,"end":4080.539,"text":"這兩個那實際上我們對外先可以但是對內不要了我們自己內部自己都知道很清楚的這是實際上人轉世紀轉改都會比較都有連涉的這些顯示間好的文章都有我們HAQ平均指標"},{"start":4082.441,"end":4099.559,"text":"我們不要去比世界同一個國家,我們比亞洲就好,亞洲就日本,新加坡跟南韓,尤其我們同樣要跟南韓比,因為南韓跟我們差不多,國民所得差不多,不管產業什麼大家都拚下去試,來,我們日本2015年,為這個SAQ的名字,為11名拚到世界第一名"},{"start":4104.313,"end":4115.084,"text":"好啦好啦,你問日本很厲害,我們不要跟日本比啦,新加坡人有21名變到16名,韓國人有22名變到18名,我們多少?我們有45,我們有進步,我們不是說賣,我們要獎勵,我們有45名變到37名而已,我們進步比我們更慢嘛"},{"start":4122.815,"end":4147.121,"text":"不是說不好,我們有進步,不是說不比人更好啊我們的進步幅度不比人更好啊好,再來,我們政府因為一直被我們批評說投資不足6.1%後來加了,他最近的網站加了長照才變7%可是你沒關係,你用長照加進去別的國家也要把長照加進去比啊不要這樣子誤導人家我們確實不夠,我們政府投資不夠再來"},{"start":4148.221,"end":4174.61,"text":"這個是臺灣的醫療投資真的太低嗎你看看我們去把日本自己亞洲自己國家的實際上的GDP去算看齁如果以GDP看我們大概40名如果以PVP當然我們的物價比較低這是我們鼓勵的臺灣這10年來物價很低我們PVP排到第15名欸欸咱幾乎只有我們只有1人人民只有1人啊各個咱平均壽命是4個國家同行嘛捏"},{"start":4176.567,"end":4186.859,"text":"我們平均壽命80.84連我們韓國最喜歡比的人家83.5我們全世界百名31名是我們韓國百名第6名看有漏氣沒有"},{"start":4188.311,"end":4210.328,"text":"我們產業,我們TSMC現在比世界要好,把韓國三星幹掉啦那為什麼我們醫療不能進步呢?為什麼我們醫療不能比韓國好呢?好,這是我們台灣學者很榮幸,我們台灣學者被全世界最好連席的邀請參加美國、加拿大、英國、荷蘭、以色列欸,我們有說喔,我們跟世界統一國家要比高這個醫療指標喔"},{"start":4212.009,"end":4233.703,"text":"AMI 心臟的死亡率30天內的死亡率跟31天到30天的死亡率全部都輸人這兩個國家都倒數第一名這全世界連社的這麼好的文件發表文件這個寫者也不能否認啊這個是都有PA review的這是全世界最好的專家 review我們在這裡的主標都輸人嘛"},{"start":4235.631,"end":4250.86,"text":"對阿再來我們現在跟中共說我們的人力不夠嘛我們的人力 醫生跟護士全世界這百名這四個區域裡面同差的嘛病人沒幾人請醫生沒幾人請護士嘛所以才會關於北層嘛那關於北層受害 受害下去到一般的民眾啦所以我們現在醫療界現在我們今天這麼晚才接電話給病人接到接電話怎樣敲北層啊很可憐的 每天就"},{"start":4265.95,"end":4280.784,"text":"很怕接到這個電話阿來,上一次公聽會或是上禮拜有人講說欸,有人就對我醫生的心緒很好阿好像在污衊我們醫生,我們是解決了他台灣的醫生的心緒是多少,平均19萬"},{"start":4283.647,"end":4296.278,"text":"我們老實說,這是用世界做的嘛,這符合楊志良說的五百到六百年,大學畢業生啊,剩下19萬年,人家韓國也這樣,36萬,還走上街頭抗議,哇,我感覺我們在台灣藝術公會要去韓國學學的,要去學看要怎麼上街頭罷工的,人家韓國國會新兵生都36萬喔,我們19萬年喔,人家36萬,根本沒愛喔,要全國罷工喔,走上街頭,你看我們台灣的藝生多過於"},{"start":4311.597,"end":4311.818,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4327.147,"end":4335.011,"text":"臺灣剛才在電視我們比寵物更衰平均的檢察會人寵物5百塊我們3百90塊我們的急救10分鐘755點點還打折喔人家寵物的30分鐘急救6千塊台幣人家是1.1塊看有看有衰嗎我們的人民比寵物差嗎"},{"start":4353.539,"end":4367.613,"text":"阿再來這個是賴總統的老師所做的結論我們有錢阿怎麼會沒錢勒政府只要36%提高到38%馬上一年就增加一兩百億了嘛公務預算有得錢臺灣政府這麼多錢怎麼會沒錢勒沒錢我幫你找錢這個什麼"},{"start":4371.216,"end":4389.698,"text":"這個只要好好修法 商業保險這邊就有60幾億了阿阿來 我們的健康保險有4千億 只給予30%只要你修夠至少給予8成 馬上多2千億進來阿只要你從商業保險拿錢就有了錢多的事只會沒錢欸好 最後結論我們醫療界這是邪怪的 絕對不跟人民為敵"},{"start":4390.519,"end":4408.797,"text":"所以我們這一次都不動會議我們只叫政府出錢公務預算再來所增加的錢並不會編入所謂的國發會的總額所以不會滾出下面不要被誤導再來我們用你們的在野黨的前總統做結論我們就是要衝突要妥協才會進步"},{"start":4409.978,"end":4410.018,"text":"拜託拜託"},{"start":4435.305,"end":4438.648,"text":"主席、委員、各位學者、參加大家早在民宴後面講話壓力很大,他的口才太好了"},{"start":4458.288,"end":4475.834,"text":"好 我想身為學者專家我們還是持平而論我想最重要在今天會有這些議題基本上還是收支上面的gap最大的問題還是在這個可是不可諱言其實我們健保從開辦的2000億到現在也將近9000億也有增加4.5倍"},{"start":4479.075,"end":4480.536,"text":"那從專業的立場來看我覺得有兩件事情就是"},{"start":4501.724,"end":4526.2,"text":"收入確實是要增加只是增加是從公務來撥補還是說我們可以從健保的這個法規裡面去改善那個所謂的匯率這塊呢確實可以思考我覺得匯率應該稍微要打開讓政府他稍微有財政的工具可以來做這件事情那當然匯率打開還是有不同的stakeholder的壓力那這就是政府要負責去把它解決"},{"start":4527.2,"end":4546.221,"text":"其實大部分你可以看這次的COVID-19我們從健保從4.9倍5.17的時候大部分的百姓並沒有反對所以我們還是有一些環境有這個可能可以成功的所以這件事情是讓政府有一些財政手段可以來增加不然健保署真的很辛苦每次在這些協商裡面"},{"start":4546.841,"end":4568.059,"text":"第二件事情就是我要比較著重談到的就是健保可能需要從他的支付的裡面因為現在的大數據其實有很多的data是可以協助健保署去做我簡單舉一個例子我們的所有的給付制度來講我們有很多成熟的檢驗檢查的給付跟新的檢查"},{"start":4568.86,"end":4597.068,"text":"或比較複雜的檢查這些需要重新盤點既有的支付制度裡面某些已經成熟的部分是不是應該做適度的調降而把省下的錢給比較新的部分那這個我想健保署在推了可是呢要加速做所謂的RV、RVS的評估也就是以這個資源為主的這種所謂的這個所謂的這個value的edit來做這件事情是很重要的事情但是要加速"},{"start":4597.768,"end":4623.23,"text":"那第二件事情是國務院最近也做了一些研究就是臺灣的百姓對於我們就用最簡單來講以一般的上呼吸道的感染然後沒有共病的這個部分90%的百姓他大概一年看病的次數大概不到10次看感冒的次數我0到5歲不要看0到5歲小朋友本來就容易感冒可是對於"},{"start":4624.83,"end":4626.511,"text":"全民健康保險醫療給付費用總額之現況與展望"},{"start":4652.819,"end":4679.251,"text":"可能是下背痛跟正式感冒沒有關係這些都要做調整這些是可以讓我們的資源用在更精準的上面這件事情是很重要的那另外一個就是我們剛才我也呼籲趙志偉講的就是我們在就醫的合理性這邊剛剛大家講民營也講過這個就醫的可信性很高可是就醫的可信性可能不能夠完全無限制的自由所以我們要落實分級醫療制度可能"},{"start":4680.572,"end":4694.808,"text":"論人計酬這目前還蠻困難的需要逐步逐步實驗可是論量計酬已經證實他需要做一定的管控所以in between這中間呢我們需要落實所謂的所謂的所謂的分級醫療的慢慢的加入那這個分級醫療包括"},{"start":4695.228,"end":4695.248,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4717.142,"end":4743.922,"text":"否則只讓一邊去加大投資他困難點打不到的時候到時候這件事情還是沒辦法打正所以兩邊各要去做調整讓政府在他的現有的9000億的財務裡面其實他可以做一些支出上面的重新的調整之後讓他有更多的多餘的錢來支付這些不足的部分可是呢我們也要適度讓政府可以打開上面的那個那個那個那個CAP讓這個這個天花板要把它打開讓總額的這一塊能夠"},{"start":4746.044,"end":4746.164,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":4761.021,"end":4761.201,"text":"主席"},{"start":4778.755,"end":4779.295,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":4808.884,"end":4810.005,"text":"謝謝邱教授接下來請林岳晴委員發言"},{"start":4836.032,"end":4836.212,"text":"主席"},{"start":4865.828,"end":4866.028,"text":"一百零七年"},{"start":4882.569,"end":4884.01,"text":"同樣的 我想健保也是這樣"},{"start":4906.289,"end":4933.168,"text":"因為我們的病患過多跟項目過多擠加進去之後那當然就會影響到總額那過去一直以來像104年在我們的合併保費降價然後105年我們的實施短收保費一年後我們的財務就整個萎縮開始出現赤字那所以在這過程當中政府呢大概就是用公寓預算來去做貼補"},{"start":4934.529,"end":4962.933,"text":"那這些公務預算的發揮如果用在政策上的推動上那當然那是計畫中的支出可是如果是在填補虧損的話那就是一個警訊那我們自己再看就是說整個的政府社會保障支出包括社會保險跟社會救助跟福利兩大類那整體的占國家總GDP比重大概從104年到111年的期間逐年增加"},{"start":4963.769,"end":4963.789,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":4987.566,"end":5003.139,"text":"國家社會福利預算總支出的1.7倍所以健保的占比比較大的時候跟其他各項支出的聯動性就會比較強所以如果比例減少一點點這其他各類的支出就會有些空間可是相反的"},{"start":5003.499,"end":5003.519,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5033.168,"end":5033.188,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5059.164,"end":5059.184,"text":"委員長"},{"start":5088.422,"end":5088.442,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5108.618,"end":5137.715,"text":"如果根據衛福部這樣的初估的話調高保費如果明年2月以後保費所需要調高的幅度就會超過法定的上限甚至到6.4%而且會不斷的提高所以可能今天大家要來想的是配套措施否則增加公務預算或者是說我擔心的是會不會排擠到社福預算那如果調高保費那就是要看每一個民眾到底能不能負擔所以今天就要還望大家給出一個更好的"},{"start":5138.235,"end":5138.255,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5159.737,"end":5162.458,"text":"衛福部在長照這個用我們的論案件計酬的架構底下"},{"start":5187.742,"end":5187.882,"text":"一併提升"},{"start":5214.209,"end":5224.773,"text":"好謝謝林月琴委員的發言接下來請臺灣醫院協會理事長林飛鵬理事長發言李飛鵬不好意思主席各位專家學者各位賢導大家好我第一次來參加這個公聽會有機會跟全國的經營一起來討論這個健保的這個制度的問題"},{"start":5244.332,"end":5264.499,"text":"我想健保制度是一個非常好的制度我來自嘉義縣布袋鎮購郭那個很窮苦的鄉下以前我們鄉下有人如果得了洗腎腎臟病的話就要賣女兒然後賣房子所以這個健保制度是一個非常好的制度我們在座大家一定要讓他繼續下去這是我的呼籲"},{"start":5265.851,"end":5292.283,"text":"那我們健保支出思想28年來以前健保的收入跟支出夠的時候大家活得很快樂但是最大問題是現在我們的臺灣的老人70歲、80歲、90歲的老人越來越多了要看病了所以我們支出就增加了那支出的增加以後因為我們臺灣有很好的衛生福利部還有健保署的官員他們就想出一些這個"},{"start":5295.876,"end":5316.008,"text":"各種的方法來把這個制度繼續維持,我非常肯定他們這樣子但是這些方法裡面有一些就是像攤扣、核檢、各種的管理點子我們的點子有保障點子、互動點子的措施來管理"},{"start":5317.458,"end":5338.375,"text":"那臺灣的醫界是臺灣的精英從以前就很會考試你不管出什麼題目他都有辦法把它考得很好像我以前在臺北醫學大學你錢不夠我們就想辦法來募款我們對一些比較好比病人家境比較好給他多看幾次一直看三委邱文導部長跟我講的"},{"start":5339.383,"end":5351.902,"text":"然後他們會募款來支持我們但是我跟大家講一下我是臺灣醫院學會的理事長臺灣的醫院呢公立的是三層那私立的是七層"},{"start":5353.646,"end":5376.302,"text":"那大家不要擔心這七層的市立的醫院公立院的如果也願意當然是繼續支持這個國家的做法但是我們臺灣的私人的醫院基本上七層裡面百分之50以上19大醫療體系都是財團法人的醫院或者學校的醫院他們即使有賺的利潤的話"},{"start":5377.643,"end":5402.838,"text":"通通都拿來繼續建設他的醫院,像學校的就來支持學校所以大家不要擔心這些私人醫院會有利潤的問題你讓他有一個比較好的兼顏條件的時候他事實上把這些資源用來培養我們的醫師人才,繼續照顧我們的國人所以在這點子的部分,我覺得就是我們家裡的老人增加多了,我們一定要增加預算來"},{"start":5405.222,"end":5430.203,"text":"支持才有辦法照顧這些老人將來我也是70歲以上了所以在這保障點子的部分醫院現在事實上已經到了很難經營的程度了我們面臨的醫院裡面面臨的第一個護理人力因為薪水不夠他們被其他行業弄走了很多的科別小兒外科什麼小兒科很多的醫生都因為我們沒辦法給他足夠的資源或者薪水他們也都走了"},{"start":5430.743,"end":5447.475,"text":"那將來這些醫院又關闖了,那我們的醫院怎麼支持下去?北龍的陳偉明院長常常跟我講,這保久才能長長久久,那保久現在也不行啦,因為我們現在有通貨膨脹,又有這個將來又要增碳稅,又要調電稅,我們現在"},{"start":5454.012,"end":5476.114,"text":"點值到0.9我相信也很難支持所以我們的支持就是說在這個剛剛提出來的這個總額的這個制度裏面保障點值在總額裏面能夠保障一塊錢總額以上的來編列預算用這個方式類似我們有一種這個醫院在國家在建有預算以後增加對不對等於是預備金的概念"},{"start":5477.476,"end":5490.847,"text":"所以我是覺得就是說我支持就是說我們呼籲就是說在這個保障點子上面讓醫院能夠持續的經營下去是大家一定要想辦法來解決的這個問題那其實我們不只說點子不夠的問題我們還有這個致富標準醫事人員的勞務費這30年來都沒有調"},{"start":5496.997,"end":5520.606,"text":"如果再調整14年 勞費我們的點子可能到0.6、0.7而已以我額比喲克來講 我們補的額沒大概一萬多點是韓國跟日本的三分之一到五分之一 但是過去在總額支付標準會議裡面你調額比喲克別人就砍了 所以都調不上去所以增加這個預算我覺得就是說"},{"start":5522.049,"end":5549.376,"text":"調整這個醫事人員勞務費包括這個支付標準還有護理人員的費用還有其他醫事人員的費用我覺得這是一個很重要的一個點那最後我是在想這樣的我們每一次在健保會裡面跟這個會議的代表大家都在是非常的難過我們在那邊溢價的感覺我們能不能制定出一個公司就是我們的點子沒有到1的時候我們"},{"start":5550.925,"end":5571.668,"text":"自動有一個公式可以調整我們今天在修法以後能夠制定這條公式以後這點子沒有到一那我們要怎麼樣撥補這樣一個不要再經過朝野協商不要再經過公聽會大家想出一個公式來到的時候自動調整我想這是我的想法謝謝大家"},{"start":5575.343,"end":5597.834,"text":"謝謝李飛鵬理事長接下來請國立臺灣大學公共衛生學院政守下院長發言主席各位委員各位一屆的代表還有我們專家學者當然我們的苦主健保署的同仁今天我有準備一些"},{"start":5599.365,"end":5623.1,"text":"資料給大家參考第一個是目前的制度到底有什麼大問題嗎現在的總額如果說成長率太低那就是我們當初在協商的付費者願意付的不夠嘛那這是一個然後我們的總額現在是分4塊然後6區所以點值都不一樣"},{"start":5623.86,"end":5647.266,"text":"那我們要全部去保障點子是不是要用同一個點子保障這是一個值得考慮的另外一個如果是某年某季因為不可抗速的因素呢造成點子過低現在就已經有補貼的這個辦法比如說補到0.9那分明0.9對醫界而言根本就不夠這可能也是一個事實所以這個部分是可以"},{"start":5648.727,"end":5657.579,"text":"討論可以調整很重要的是政府管醫療市場到底要管到什麼程度健保已經把醫療服務框住了"},{"start":5658.766,"end":5684.848,"text":"那現在掛號費當然雙幫另外一個叫醫療人力醫院要聘醫師、聘護理人員那個到目前為止應該是一個自由市場那如果健保要擴大他的影響力要規範到我們剛剛講醫師薪水或是護理要保證收入那我們就往公醫制度更靠近了那這個是我們要的嗎我想這個是比較大的"},{"start":5685.909,"end":5712.121,"text":"方向應該討論所以上次健保署這是衛福部非常快速的取消過號費沒有任何的座談會、公聽會、批發都沒有消極會就是有人反對但是就上了因為沒有法源依據就一句話也很好啊那另外一個是要補護理夜班費的時候當初政府各個"},{"start":5713.493,"end":5713.513,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":5738.086,"end":5738.587,"text":"週五我看那個"},{"start":5756.05,"end":5775.291,"text":"國會頻道直播那個趙志偉就特別提說保障點子可以但是要有附帶決議至少剛剛趙志偉有提應該某些我們要解決的要達成的加上去不是只有保障點子這個是可以討論那醫界希望跟韓國看齊那是不是合適我做兩個數字給各位看"},{"start":5777.653,"end":5799.24,"text":"韓國的醫師人數其實他的成長率跟台灣非常非常接近那跟OECD的成長率都一樣因為全世界的國家的發展都一樣我們比較慢嘛所以追得比較慢但是韓國的病床數一直在增加OECD的平均病床數是在下降的台灣的病床數是持平"},{"start":5800.339,"end":5828.737,"text":"因為韓國實施了長照保險他們新增的病床全部都是長照保險床所以我們在懷疑韓國能夠快速的平均餘命成長很可能是長照保險帶來的這是可能因為我們沒有很確確的數字好 那可以看剛剛我們有在看那個醫療保健支出佔GDP的比例其實比較好的是用CHE不是NHE就是把"},{"start":5829.717,"end":5857.014,"text":"國家醫療保健支出扣掉投資就是蓋醫院買設備了所以就是比較準的這個比例呢韓國是有目的的要追上OECD的平均這是他們的目的所以他們的目的呢大力支持醫療生技包括醫美產業然後實施全民健常照保險這是韓國政府有目的的要追上"},{"start":5858.217,"end":5858.237,"text":"臺灣的"},{"start":5872.388,"end":5901.287,"text":"這個比重比起來OECD的平均世界各國都很努力的在控制醫療費用的成長不要太快那如果說我們覺得我們的醫療費用成長太慢投入太少事實上也要先設一個目標值不是一直下去的那韓國其實之所以跑那麼快因為我們的GDP成長過去10年比韓國大所以我們的分母就大所以那個比重看起來就比較少這是其中一個原因"},{"start":5907.451,"end":5917.037,"text":"總額是跟支付制度掛鉤支付制度會直接影響醫療服務的提供所以我個人建議是總額現在是上限制也許可以改目標值"},{"start":5917.597,"end":5946.817,"text":"那目標超過的部分怎麼辦那個就是現在開始來討論讓醫界有一點緩衝的機會那或者直接取消總額可以我個人是贊成那住院就是用DRG門診用包括是支付那我們就不怕量過度的衝讓民眾付費承擔不起這樣子那最近我自己有提一個醫療跟健保改革的方案那這個有發表在一個期刊純粹給各位參考謝謝大家 謝謝"},{"start":5949.978,"end":5953.781,"text":"謝謝正所下院長接下來請王振旭委員發言謝謝主席"},{"start":5970.734,"end":5985.195,"text":"各位委員：各位與會的專家學者：還有我們衛福部的官員們大家好很高興有機會一起來參加今天的公聽會那我身為一屆的代表"},{"start":5986.3,"end":6003.988,"text":"除了感謝大家以外那針對今天的公聽會我想大家也真的絞盡腦汁希望能夠更好那也希望對於其他社會所有的民眾都能夠得到好的更好的幫助尤其是在醫療的部分"},{"start":6005.669,"end":6033.828,"text":"當我身為醫師的時候病人的健康是我首要的顧念我提供最合宜的醫療照護給予我的病人還有他的家人當我是社會公益團體負責人的時候我努力的提出各種倡議來協助我所照顧的癌症病人還有他的家庭可以順利的康復同時有機會得到更好的生活品質"},{"start":6035.768,"end":6061.998,"text":"當我擔任地方醫師公會理事長的時候剛好是COVID最可怕的時間我努力的爭取防疫資源調合各種防疫措施以促成醫療院所共同來參與居家防疫並且致力於分析醫療的落實那現在我很幸運進入了國會殿堂"},{"start":6063.098,"end":6063.118,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6084.105,"end":6112.852,"text":"台灣建構健康台灣的同時具有良好的職業環境跟尊嚴而且沒有後顧之憂可是在民眾端我也必須要努力的協助來維持一個看得起看得到進而能夠看得好的疾病而且是一個可長可久的健康保險制度這個就是我們今天正在努力希望那個制度能夠可長可久"},{"start":6114.052,"end":6142.363,"text":"相信今天四個公聽會的主題大家與會的學者都會提供非常精闢的見解來讓我們的行政機關能夠根據大家的見解共同來努力來促成如果健保法第62條的條文修正案獲得通過以後我認為我認為大家必須要非常負責任的來面對下列這四個無法迴避的問題"},{"start":6144.711,"end":6165.099,"text":"這是無好迴避的問題大家必須要負責任的來面對第一個就是分級醫療制度的施行會更難落實社區醫療基層診所社區醫院恐怕會趨於萎縮這個對全民健康的維護有它一定重大的影響"},{"start":6166.883,"end":6182.968,"text":"2.偏鄉醫療、重症醫療、兒童醫療會更顯困境3.醫療審查的密度與強度一定會劇增導致臨床醫師跟病人緊張的關係會日趨嚴重"},{"start":6186.329,"end":6208.869,"text":"這相信對任何的臨床醫師當他面對他的病人需要醫療資源可是受限或者是他擔心往後的審查導致他的這個服務受影響的時候這是必須要請大家共同來思考的那第4點就是剛剛月秦委員所提到的當醫療費用快速成長的時候很有可能會導致社會資源的排擠"},{"start":6210.143,"end":6229.254,"text":"相信對於其他需要各種我們國家資源的這些民眾來講他所受到的影響會是比現在還要讓我們擔心可是如果我們近期能夠有效來擴大健保財務的來源的話在監護社會公平情形之下"},{"start":6230.074,"end":6258.755,"text":"包括我們最近醫療論壇所提到的政府來提供健保費從36%提高到38%第二點部分的總額項目回歸到公務預算來支應第三個在健保總額之外成立癌藥基金讓各種的基金在使用這個重大或者是相對於昂貴的藥物我們有更好的方式來支應第四點政府已經"},{"start":6259.876,"end":6288.976,"text":"當然這個健保會的計算範圍以健保法規來做規範的來做這相關的這個健保的支應而不去影響到這個總額的制度的這個費用第5點就是鬆綁個人補充保險費單筆費用的這個上限第6點調整補充保險費率以符合更好的社會公平原則第7點就是依法來編實保險費率的上限我相信透過這些"},{"start":6289.776,"end":6307.59,"text":"建保各種醫療財源的挹注,再加上健康臺灣深耕計畫經費的導入,就能夠朝著在總統當選人所主張的保障點子每點0.9元,並且朝向1.1元的目標繼續的前進。"},{"start":6310.012,"end":6328.971,"text":"最後有關於各項健保改革的議題包括今天的這個點子問題真的很需要大家有更多元更全面的討論與取得的共識並且得到全民的支持最後祝福大家都能夠順心如意謝謝"},{"start":6332.776,"end":6334.499,"text":"謝謝王振旭委員的發言"},{"start":6353.26,"end":6370.839,"text":"主席 還有我們今天所有與會的貴賓 大家早安大家好我是臺灣大學健康政策與管理研究所兼任老師楊明清我在這邊先跟大家簡單介紹一下我自己就是在早期的時候有參與我們臺灣健保的規劃"},{"start":6373.937,"end":6397.947,"text":"在那個規劃的過程裡面就發現說這個健保的制度其實它很複雜就是你可以想到說每一個制度都需要大家群策群力大家一起來想辦法看怎麼樣把它做得更好可是它其實也很單純為什麼說很單純因為它就是一個字就是錢"},{"start":6399.701,"end":6425.14,"text":"你有錢,很多事情就好辦你沒錢,很多事情就做不了其實今天我想今天這個主題跟錢也是有很大的關係可是我必須說它也是很複雜你不能說錢撒下去好像什麼事情都沒有了當然我們現場剛剛有我們國發會代表我們有主計處代表財政部代表就表示說這個要謹慎以對那確實是"},{"start":6429.394,"end":6429.554,"text":"主席"},{"start":6454.868,"end":6476.001,"text":"規劃全民健保的時候有一項工作就是要到各個地區去宣導健保這個制度這個當然是在民國83年的時候我記得我到一個醫學中心去宣導我已經講了很多次了包括也上新聞媒體講得已經滾瓜爛熟了"},{"start":6477.011,"end":6504.077,"text":"那碰到一個問題我嚇一跳從來沒有碰過這個問題就是我們把它通通講完以後就有一位現場有一位年輕的醫師他就舉手問說請問你們這個制度實施以後有沒有保障我們的薪水在醫院裡面保障他的薪水那當然沒有因為健保我們針對的是就是健保署或者當時的健保局是跟誰簽約是跟醫院簽約"},{"start":6506.84,"end":6506.86,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":6526.212,"end":6526.432,"text":"主席"},{"start":6549,"end":6576.594,"text":"我是非常贊同就是如果要讓一個醫院能夠穩健健全的營運下去我們的同仁是需要有足夠的這個而且是合理的這個待遇在裡面那第二個當然是他的這些設備也是需要定期去做更新這個是重要的那我再講一下在做我們這個健保的時候那也是有一件很重要的事情就是"},{"start":6578.1,"end":6586.169,"text":"不曉得各位還記不記得在健保開辦的前夕有舉辦所謂的公民會議在場比較我們資深年長的專家學者比較有印象所謂的專家 對不起 我們公民會議"},{"start":6597.881,"end":6626.247,"text":"公聽會議結束以後,當時的總經理他就講了一句名言,然後被新聞媒體引用他就講三件事情他說健保不能倒,大家記得這個事情嗎?那第二句話叫做什麼?就是保費不能漲第三件事情叫做給付不能少我的天我的天吶就是"},{"start":6627.625,"end":6656.833,"text":"你要馬而肥又要馬而不吃草當然但是我覺得這個大家今天在這邊聽覺得說哎呀這個好像有點難就是你又要又要有東西然後又又不想要付太多錢可是你想想看這個是公民會議他們得到的一個結論我們必須要尊重剛剛我們前面那個吳明彥秘書長也對那個手牌也是講了就是民眾對於長保費是有感的但是"},{"start":6658.131,"end":6658.792,"text":"建保不能倒,保費不能少"},{"start":6678.877,"end":6679.037,"text":"主席"},{"start":6699.892,"end":6700.493,"text":"謝謝楊明清教授"},{"start":6726.141,"end":6743.389,"text":"那很榮幸有機會參加這個公聽會那健保總額因為是我一路跟醫界我們各界大家一起就是發展出來的所以今天雖然有其他會還是一定要來參加不過我有一句簡單的總結就是沒有什麼magic我們應該回到basic那這句話其實在20年前"},{"start":6755.155,"end":6764.319,"text":"20多年前那時候民進黨執政那因為健保也面對很多問題所以行政院邀請我跟朱哲銘主席總長去演講我那時候結論就是這個因為其實我們對很多的議題已經討論了快要30年了但是因為我們沒有落實執行所以呢也會面對今天的困境那簡單講今天在講的點子說真的它是一個現象解"},{"start":6783.39,"end":6783.791,"text":"如果點數沒辦法控制好,當然點數會下降"},{"start":6798.092,"end":6826.998,"text":"所以我們如果從點子來解決是解決不了問題的我還是必須以學界的立場提出這個看法那所以回歸還是要回到健保的問題那其實剛剛大家都已經提了很多問題那我也想我也就是做一個稍微summary那目前第一個應該是資源不足第二個分配不均那資源不足當然是在整體健保的投資也包括我們預防保健的投資不足"},{"start":6827.546,"end":6837.436,"text":"所以會落到後端包括慢性病腎型管理不好那分配不均不管是在以藥養醫或者是專業跟非專業等等這些其實有非常多不公平的現象甚至包括基層跟醫院還有各個科別那第三個其實最重要的問題現在大家都會跟外國比那我們只比價格"},{"start":6851.38,"end":6869.524,"text":"可是大家沒有去比量我們的那個利用率還有很多服務的密集度事實上也是全世界數一數二包括我們有全世界最高的洗腎率那有幾乎快要第一的那個門診次數那另外一個問題是支付改革比較慢低價值醫療盛行那這些其實都是構成現在主要的問題所以如果真的還是要回歸"},{"start":6879.873,"end":6906.598,"text":"我們真的面對這些問題點子我個人支持要適度的保障那這個部分其實主要是我們對於醫療院所承諾因為整個總和協商其實是一個願就是願意買一個願意賣如果逼到醫療院所不願意提供服務那這個也不是原來的目的所以必須要適度的保障讓醫療院所可以成長這個我是支持的"},{"start":6907.093,"end":6910.716,"text":"但是要保障到什麼程度我覺得這個應該回歸健保會去協商否則健保會會形同虛設那過去會有這些問題其實健保署分析得很清楚很多其實是因為疫情那還有就是在疫情後供預算停止支付等等這些那我們不能無常正常用不能把異常變成是正常"},{"start":6934.215,"end":6940.617,"text":"一定要去保障到1.1塊這個其實並不合理那我覺得應該還是要回到衛福部跟健保會這邊來去談到一個比較合理的一個保障點子那這可能不應該是1因為否則的話其實後續的會造成更多的誘因讓大家衝量那所有支出目標會面對的問題其實都會存在所以附帶補充一句就是其實當年支出目標是大家共同選的"},{"start":6963.823,"end":6976.126,"text":"那不是衛生署逼大家那主要是因為支出目標沒有適度的誘因讓大家共同努力來提升效率那讓品質能夠提升所以才會有這樣的一個結果那針對這些問題我想我也簡單提幾個建議那第一個當然是擴大投資但是不是只有在健保應該在我們的預防保健疾病管理"},{"start":6991.414,"end":6991.814,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7013.988,"end":7018.389,"text":"所以我們必須要擴大投資但這個投資也必須包括剛剛講的預防保健跟在慢性病的管理這部分的投資第二個當然就是精準支付因為如果論量計酬其實是無以為繼所以剛剛講的那個點數一定會持續擴大保證就是再過幾年可能我們要談的是點值要是保障兩塊而不是一塊"},{"start":7040.615,"end":7060.632,"text":"因為這個是不斷膨脹的關係那精準支付可能就要落實剛剛趙志偉也提到包括支付制度的改革DRG那門診尤其更需要改革不管是包括支付APG的支付這些都是原來已經規劃沒有落實的那另外就是精準的給付我們在藥品的討論其實也討論到"},{"start":7064.888,"end":7078.58,"text":"應該具有存金才有空間讓更多新的進來而不是持續擴大預算那另外一個部分當然就是價值支付必須要考量我們提供的服務是不是能夠落實這個價值的提升"},{"start":7081.127,"end":7086.33,"text":"那最後我們必須要控制供給,否則供給量不斷的擴大,也沒有辦法達到目的然後呢,要定期調整支付標準,否則我們醫事人員的薪資是沒有辦法提升的那以上報告,謝謝好,謝謝陽明交通大學衛生福利研究所李育春教授那接下來請王育民委員發言"},{"start":7112.564,"end":7126.65,"text":"謝謝焦偉主持人我們本會的委員還有各位專家學者大家好我想今天這個場合非常的好就是讓大家對於整體我們的健保制度實行這麼久那我們的總額支付制度實行這麼久"},{"start":7130.112,"end":7130.913,"text":"全民健康保險醫療給付費用總額之現況與展望"},{"start":7153.726,"end":7176.763,"text":"那事實上這就是啟動了大家可以來對話跟跨出改變的第一步那為什麼我們上個禮拜四我想在委員會大家朝野立委大家都有共識就是這個草案已經送出委員會接下來就是朝野協商主要是大家對於現行的醫療環境很多醫院承受這樣子七折八扣的情況"},{"start":7177.603,"end":7204.533,"text":"我們的醫護人員沒有辦法獲得好的薪資待遇還有我們有一些基層的院所他要更新醫療設備根本沒有辦法那這些問題我們大家都有共識而且認為是該到了改革的時候了所以我剛才聽到很多的專家學者其實也都有提到我們從這個健保點子的調升到整個健保制度裡面該改革的部分其實大家都指出一些方向"},{"start":7204.953,"end":7210.298,"text":"李玉春教授提到政府的投資不夠如果我們要說我們全民健保這個是臺灣之光臺灣驕傲我們可以在世界上講得很大聲我們有很便利的健保大家在臺灣看病很方便有些人到國外年老之後一定要回到臺灣來"},{"start":7229.877,"end":7258.44,"text":"臺灣的健保制度真的是太好了照顧很多人但是我要講一句臺灣這麼好用的健保絕對不能建立在我們醫護的血汗之上一定是要讓我們的醫療環境構建權談永續才有價值大家都提到說健保要永續沒有人會反對但是如果我們的健保制度建立在那個過程是需要醫護付出血汗"},{"start":7259.201,"end":7259.401,"text":"政府負擔36%健康論壇提出"},{"start":7283.019,"end":7283.479,"text":"全民健康保險醫療及衛生環境委員"},{"start":7299.204,"end":7299.224,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":7315.686,"end":7318.488,"text":"是我們認為臺灣最值得支撐的一個體系的話為什麼超徵稅額不能優先挹注到我們的全民健保為什麼我們握有權利者不能做出這樣子的一個決定而是看說部長誰大聲誰比較會爭取資源所以人家經濟部部長好棒棒一千億就過去台電了"},{"start":7340.225,"end":7340.605,"text":"衛福部部長"},{"start":7369.489,"end":7379.376,"text":"財源的問題無解嗎?我個人認為是有解的所以在上個禮拜六有一個南寧國有獎的頒獎典禮卓榮泰院長也到了現場那我就當面也跟他說我說這個健保點值要調高的問題大家共同來面對行政院跟國會一起來面對目標只有一個他在現場也說這個他又提到CEO World就是提到我們這個No.1"},{"start":7397.408,"end":7417.803,"text":"但是他忽略一件事情就是我們真正要打造一個優質的健全的永續的健保體系我們才可以真正拿到第一這個第一才有價值所以我當場跟他說是不是新的政府新的上任賴總統提出健康台灣的口號我也非常贊成"},{"start":7418.666,"end":7445.868,"text":"但是健康台灣不能只是一句口號健康台灣如果要付諸實踐那請政府加大自己對於整個健保體系的投資增加我們的預算把這件事情列為是重中之重最優先而最後我要講賴清德總統他其實特別有提到說在總統選舉的時候他說他最有能力來解決這個健保的問題"},{"start":7448.01,"end":7449.511,"text":"我們要跟賴清德總統喊話賴總統520你即將上任我們也相信你最有能力來解決健保的問題那解決健保的問題我們從今天討論的這個調高健保點子開始其他的配套開始"},{"start":7465.32,"end":7468.221,"text":"好 謝謝王育明委員的發言 那我們現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":7506.697,"end":7508.138,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7532.683,"end":7532.783,"text":"主席"},{"start":7559.411,"end":7559.671,"text":"主席"},{"start":7579.12,"end":7579.581,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7605.938,"end":7606.679,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7635.898,"end":7636.359,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7665.758,"end":7666.198,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7683.348,"end":7683.668,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":7700.896,"end":7701.857,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":8124.807,"end":8146.118,"text":"好 我們繼續公聽會好 接下來請中華民國區域醫院協會顧問是不是請各位安靜請各位安靜 我們要繼續發言請各位安靜"},{"start":8153.32,"end":8174.896,"text":"請回座謝謝好接下來請中華民國區域醫院協會顧問陳志忠顧問發言尊敬的主席以及各位在現場我很多的老師還有我們的同一屆的同仁大家早安大家好"},{"start":8176.884,"end":8193.423,"text":"聽完前面各位學者專家還有我們的主管機構健保署所說的話語好像剩下我能夠講的就不多了不過我還是準備了幾點跟大家做補充第一個"},{"start":8195.71,"end":8217.979,"text":"剛剛有某位專家提到健保今年第30年從1995年美國84年開始前10年大家過得沒有問題第二個10年開始各個部門開始實施總額預算大家覺得好像還行還活得下去可是這10年非常的痛苦"},{"start":8221.574,"end":8233.827,"text":"我們算一下數字就知道我們每年健保總額的成長率經過健保會提出政府核定了以後大概都在5%上下很少超過6%"},{"start":8237.019,"end":8259.456,"text":"在5%上下,健保署其實先拿起了一部分來做品質的鼓勵所以真正分到各個醫院各區區的成長大概只有2.5到3%可是我們大家所有有經營醫療機構的人都知道我們醫療機構的"},{"start":8262.145,"end":8269.623,"text":"每所有的收入裡面50%給了人事費用那我們的員工不管醫生"},{"start":8270.953,"end":8293.926,"text":"不算以外其他的員工每年是要調薪的調薪來自兩個事情第一個他的年資到了要往上調護理人員從N1要升N2要升N3所有的技術人員所有的行政人員他有值等值等要往上調另外一個就是政府每年公務人員的調薪最近幾年都在4% 5%那我們"},{"start":8298.769,"end":8314.007,"text":"在公立的機構要調薪私人的機構如果不跟著調薪你的員工就跑了所以這樣算起來這樣的一個健保的成長率我們根本不用考慮別的事情就已經不夠來支付這個人員的成本"},{"start":8314.83,"end":8315.991,"text":"第二件事啊,我要提一下就是"},{"start":8339.08,"end":8359.485,"text":"1.1元是尊重我們的專業想想看如果各位的薪水你上班以後我們健保一季算到第一季結束以後你的老闆或者政府告訴公務人員說對不起我們錢不夠了所以你的薪水我們給你打個0.95打個0.90人民會同意嗎?絕對不會同意"},{"start":8364.69,"end":8379.3,"text":"那我們政府去蓋房子蓋道路蓋橋樑都可以最佳預算為什麼唯獨照顧人民的健康不能最佳預算不能給他補足到1.1元剛剛我們提到這個我們的總額"},{"start":8388.499,"end":8397.467,"text":"有老師說如果保障點資就等於把總額廢掉了我們現在一屆提出的是總額目標制"},{"start":8398.885,"end":8420.481,"text":"不要上限制 如果我們談好一個目標以後 超過的部分應該怎麼處理就請健保署 請政府 請主管機關想辦法用審查的方法 用攤扣的方法 用斷頭的方法甚至怎麼樣來把這個控制在合理的範圍裡面"},{"start":8421.92,"end":8434.828,"text":"那世界各國不管實施公益制度或者是實施總額的一些保險制度的國家它都幾乎都是目標制並沒有說用打折的方法給付"},{"start":8436.175,"end":8459.32,"text":"怎麼做到呢?就是人民要承受在接近年底的時候,在這個fiscal year,在這個快進年度快結束的時候,他錢不夠了,就把一些非緊急的醫療往後延。我們在國外很多人說他到年底去排一個CT scan,可能要花很多的時間,就是這樣的原因。"},{"start":8460.578,"end":8482.826,"text":"然後第三點我必須要替我們基層的醫療機構就是我們廣大的開業的醫師我們的同道講一句話醫院有所謂這個什麼停車場美食街可以增加他的收入來補充他的"},{"start":8484.726,"end":8512.443,"text":"讓他不要虧損但是我們基層開業的同仁是沒有這些的他們完全靠這個而且他們的他們的那個診察費不在保障點子範圍不是固定點子固定點子只有手術費還有藥費這些等等最後因為我是一個泌尿外科醫師剛剛提的都太客氣了吳明彥秘書長我講倒尿"},{"start":8513.936,"end":8538.334,"text":"他說通水管好像要1500塊還是1000塊他講放個氣管導管都有好幾百點導尿通水管一個講導尿導尿是94點從來沒有調過以上報告祝大家身體健康萬事如意健保能夠為臺灣人民帶來最好最健康的社會謝謝"},{"start":8540.936,"end":8542.218,"text":"好 謝謝陳志忠顧問接下來請臺灣社會心理復健協會 滕熙華秘書長發言"},{"start":8557.801,"end":8575.211,"text":"主席 呃 主席各位委員 與會的觀眾 大家午安 因為時間的關係 所以我就不議問候 講快一點 這樣 謝謝好 今天的slide是這樣子 我要講為什麼 呃 點值合以反映品質 我要看 我們要先檢討一下目前的制度 就是第一個 元兇是長期漠視健保收入面的成額 是政府帶頭惡化"},{"start":8576.272,"end":8603.644,"text":"建保廢機過度依賴薪資所得加護總所得10年停滯2004年二代建保的時候就說我們廢機跟合理保費收入的唯一處方就是加護總所得我們現在足跡總數公佈的薪資所得下降我們的人口紅利從2019年再也沒有了所以呢一直用薪資所得來去合理化補充保費再把它調高從1000萬調到5000萬完全沒有理由去合理化資本利的沒有納入廢機這件事情是完全不對的"},{"start":8604.444,"end":8622.942,"text":"政府負擔灌水健保法施行細則在106年修法的時候104年修法的時候45條把高達9項的社會福利的補貼全部都灌水進去我們的政府負擔36%我們好不容易搶救了兩項這個一年至少政府在政府負擔率裡面就至少70億以上的這個"},{"start":8624.343,"end":8624.363,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":8654.343,"end":8654.723,"text":"公聽委員：完整會議"},{"start":8675.9,"end":8702.558,"text":"總共將近32億都是用我們的保費來支出吸肝全口服新藥在106年納入給付的時候包括醫界代表都共同呼籲公務預算要相對編列可是我們的公務預算只去成立了肝炎防治辦公室沒有在吸肝全口服新藥這麼貴的裡面去支應而且還不斷的擴大輕症以及沒有症狀的治療至今為止花了418億國健署 疾管署 口腔師在預防性治療 公共衛生這一些就以113年為例"},{"start":8704.199,"end":8730.601,"text":"包括狂犬病疫苗在內就已經超過16億這些都是政府灌進來的再來就是政府自行核定總額加碼的項目協商形同虛設所以我們就沒有辦法在協商的時候預估我們的成長率跟我們的保費應該要做多少暫行性支付原本是一件好事可是暫行性支付裡面只有臨床一起的也可以納入這不是形同把恩慈療法跟臨床試驗納入健保給付嗎"},{"start":8731.181,"end":8746.805,"text":"去合理化我們因為外界對於癌症性要審查緩慢的一個理由也讓醫生跟臨床的醫生裡面在使用暫停性支付的時候自己去面對不確定療效跟安全的這個藥物那制度性惡化的問題醫學中心上限數量去除管制化"},{"start":8747.425,"end":8771.227,"text":"導致支出面跟部分負擔就地就起價健保沒有做什麼事情醫療服務也沒有改變當醫學中心升等之後我們的支付支出就完全的上升再來就是失去橫平性的支付標準會炒的孩子有糖吃啊我們就變成RBRVS要檢討的虛幅化跟破碎化因為你沒有辦法按照科學的證據去調整支付標準聲量大的新聞大的先調"},{"start":8772.188,"end":8797.526,"text":"先保障哪邊不夠我就調到這邊因為政治壓力我就先調所以越來越多以年齡別單一疾病新增3歲以下要保障變成6歲以下要保障變成18歲要保障80歲要保障現在變成75歲保障變成65歲要保障這些都破壞給付的橫平性那表面醫療分級但支付標準是分級的亂象就是這樣我再舉兩個例子就好因為藥草有糖吃所以就造成什麼"},{"start":8798.166,"end":8813.728,"text":"醫學中心你要做分級醫療但專科醫師之所以診察費比較高是因為他要做更好的這個品質更專業的治療可是現在調整會造成部分醫學中心的專科醫師診察費低於基層然後我們醫學中心的急診給付一二級竟然低於地區醫院那這是什麼醫療的分級"},{"start":8815.57,"end":8841.997,"text":"責任變獎勵 比如向上轉診應該是基於醫療院所的設備專業能力向上轉診是一種醫療的責任現在我們也拿獎勵在鼓勵向上轉診那再來 停滯不前的支付制度推動改革這個剛剛李玉春老師已經有提到了我就不再講這一些改革支付制度的停滯剛剛鄭首相老師也有說你要做你就要做這一些沒有 現在都沒有做所以我們就會造成說我們現在論量計酬底下有做就有錢跟品質不一定關係"},{"start":8842.737,"end":8845.058,"text":"臺灣民眾跟現場的醫界可以允許那個做得很好的跟做得很不好的你拿一樣的錢嗎拿一樣的價值嗎不能允許嘛"},{"start":8859.565,"end":8860.006,"text":"全民健康保險醫療給付費用總額之現況與展望"},{"start":8874.728,"end":8874.848,"text":"公聽會議公聽會議公聽會議"},{"start":8898.688,"end":8906.07,"text":"地區醫院的一二級急診給付高於醫學中心完全沒有道理然後醫護人員的薪資勞動條件勞動部為什麼無動於衷呢台灣藥廠首發支付為什麼健保署要不計成本扛經濟部沒他的事嗎你不應該經濟部出來獎勵台灣的藥廠嗎再來這是最後一頁這樣根據健保資料2022年平均薪資門診申報點數894加上住院超過1300萬點請問各位醫院老闆"},{"start":8923.454,"end":8930.399,"text":"醫院老闆你們問健保署不對啊醫師們你要問醫院老闆你拿多少錢出來給受雇薪資剛剛姚明欽老師要講問錯人護理費從98年500億護病比都拿光了剛公佈的110年財報最賺錢的前20大醫院護病比表現不突出請問在場的護理師全台灣的20萬職業護理師醫院老闆拿出來多少錢給護理師薪資你要問你的老闆不是問健保署健保署不是直接付錢給你所以你要找誰算帳啊這件事情要找對人"},{"start":8953.195,"end":8970.36,"text":"最後一張建品質等於點子我們都贊成我們追求合理好的品質應該要有好的點子但好的品質跟好的點子唯一的路只有支付制度改革跟健保費機正義而不是論量底下的去責任化謝謝好謝謝藤西黃秘書長接下來請陳金輝委員發言"},{"start":8993.657,"end":9008.008,"text":"主席在座非常多我一屆的前輩以及各位委員還有各位官員大家早安大家好還是必須要回到我們全國人民的健康水平"},{"start":9011.385,"end":9024.443,"text":"所以必須重複健保點值打折就是人民健康打折如果我們是一個連醫事人員都無法善待的政府又如何能夠促進健康台灣呢"},{"start":9026.501,"end":9052.843,"text":"這個大家到媒體就可以抓到這樣子的圖我也希望等等公聽會結束以後我們隨時經過一個醫院從外面的窗戶看看所有的急診室拜託大家感受一下現在是一個禮拜一的上午我們在會議室裡面平靜的開著會但是呢我們看到在座許多專業的醫事人員本來應該要在醫院忙碌的救治這些病患的時間"},{"start":9054.344,"end":9056.526,"text":"他們會來到現場是因為退無可退所以犧牲了自己寶貴的時間站出來發聲是希望爭取自己和同儕的工作權尊嚴還有身為一個人長期被低估的基本的勞務權利就是這麼卑微就是這麼簡單而已"},{"start":9077.327,"end":9079.249,"text":"我們也要門心自問的想想看現在的護理師流動率這麼高我們在座的各位委員我們也都會老啊我們也希望自己的長輩甚至自己在未來台灣面對高齡化衝擊的時候台灣有足夠的護理人員醫事人員可以讓我們得到好好的照顧"},{"start":9097.805,"end":9111.119,"text":"但面臨現在的點子我可以告訴大家說沒有辦法了已經沒有辦法了要不是大家退無可退不可能站出來發聲好我們看到今天報告第14第10第11頁的內容也請衛福部長官不要再跟全國的醫事人員情緒勒索"},{"start":9118.226,"end":9124.691,"text":"你告訴我說點值如果用0.95用1.0來計算的話會出現不足60到500億的財務缺口會排擠到其他政府部門的預算我就想請教了現在衛福部要不要跟大家交代一下光是在去年而已你就增加挹注了全民健康健保基金240億元你自己是不是也在帶頭排擠其他部門的預算"},{"start":9147.146,"end":9162.159,"text":"或者是透過點值條長上的毫無作為來犧牲了全國人民的健康的權利呢衛福部長上週說如果我們要達到點值1.1元必須要漲保費意圖來製造對立"},{"start":9164.321,"end":9179.305,"text":"但是根據臺灣健康投資報告我把臺灣健康表現與醫療支出的關聯真相呈現給大家我們的國家投注在醫療保健用途的支出比例來說臺灣的經常性醫療保健支出僅佔了GDP的6.1%低於OECD國家的9.6%"},{"start":9188.087,"end":9198.495,"text":"至於公部門：公部門的醫療支出占比臺灣只有3.9%低於太多大部分我們熟悉的國家韓國4.8%日本9.2%法國9.3%德國9.5%"},{"start":9205.641,"end":9218.936,"text":"這個公部門的醫療支出占比就看得出來長期冷血漠視把醫事人員的無私功德付出當成政績來說嘴是多麼的無情"},{"start":9220.417,"end":9241.995,"text":"部長在上週四跟大家講說健保點值調漲的話國庫因此會增加支出同樣的邏輯之下健保點值如果沒有調漲那麼國庫沒有增加的支出也將會讓國人用吃了虧打了折的醫療品質來承擔今天大家也可以思考一下透過我手上的這個圖表"},{"start":9243.456,"end":9250.58,"text":"我們看到健保總額點值一點不足1元的缺口不算去年就累積到2022年為止在醫院的缺口就有4504億點在基層的醫療院所就有886億點總計是5390億點而這些點數支出的同時是被政府"},{"start":9266.147,"end":9290.547,"text":"用打了七折打了八折簡單來說彷彿認為人民的健康是可以有折扣來計算的至於也將因此有打折的結果今天政府不想解決具體的表現呢也將反映在小病就醫看診方便但是癌症大病治不好慢性病活不久這樣子的事實上"},{"start":9291.548,"end":9318.379,"text":"我們最新在去年8月公布了2022年國人平均壽命是79.84歲其中男性76歲女性83歲已經遠遠比日本韓國還來的低各國都非常重視國民的平均餘命是衡量這個國家基本健康標準而我們透過我們健保制度的運作不妨看一下我手上這張圖表大家真的不要再自瞞"},{"start":9319.139,"end":9330.629,"text":"什麼叫做醫療服務第一名應該要更用開放的心胸去看思考一下為什麼我們還不能在平均愚民的提升上能有進一步的空間"},{"start":9332.344,"end":9358.91,"text":"雪漢醫護影響病患的權益 背後的原因來自於健保點值的浮動 長期的低落不足而給付表面上是醫界吃虧沒錯 醫護人員吃虧 但實際上間接影響的到醫療品質真正危害的是全國人民的健康甚至健康於命 癌症五年存活率 新生兒死亡率都遠遠的低於OECD其他國家"},{"start":9359.75,"end":9384.685,"text":"好為了沒有辦法給醫事員合理待遇多少年來護理師錢少事多回家晚必須輪三班離職率居高不下人手不足導致護病比過低嚴重的影響我們的住院品質他們頻繁的加班導致身心俱疲惡性循環下離職率更高最後只得縮減病床關閉病房"},{"start":9386.426,"end":9411.6,"text":"導致急診等住院的病人無法住院這個現在已經是現在進行式的人間煉獄根據國際護理學會統計臺灣護理人員平均職業的壽命只有6到7年為亞洲國家最低跟歐美國家超過20年以上的職業年資是天壤之別因此我也要在這邊呼籲我們所有的朝野委員"},{"start":9412.6,"end":9415.021,"text":"長庚大學醫務管理學系 盧瑞芬教授"},{"start":9449.741,"end":9453.842,"text":"建保的議題其實是一個非常基本的經濟的問題就是說資源有限但是欲望無窮"},{"start":9475.809,"end":9475.829,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9505.709,"end":9505.729,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9524.013,"end":9533.004,"text":"核心的服務由社會保險來做但是往上可以再去加成這個是目前世界各國都有在處理的方式那我們現在臺灣的國衛院的論壇也花了一年的時間今年年底會出這份報告"},{"start":9538.951,"end":9539.051,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9557.091,"end":9568.829,"text":"分配這個錢然後來調整這個薪資這是醫院內部的管理的問題那當然我也知道說醫院覺得錢啊不夠的時候就沒辦法有合理的這個薪資但是這個部分"},{"start":9569.986,"end":9594.327,"text":"有時候因為人力的不足這個是一個市場失靈的問題市場失靈的問題其實是要政府介入政府介入的方式就包括我們的醫事師我們要在保障互併比的前提下面是不是要有其他人力的配套措施這都不是單單健保一個制度可以去修正的"},{"start":9595.56,"end":9596.06,"text":"全民健康保險醫療給付費用總額之現況與展望"},{"start":9614.677,"end":9633.063,"text":"除了財源的問題以外我們可以多元化但是更重要是後面分配的問題也就是它不是只是放在急性醫療它是應該整個醫療體系包括從前端的這個預防中間的急診中間的這個acute care急性醫療跟後面的post-acute這個都是要全面處理"},{"start":9633.743,"end":9661.426,"text":"所以並不是只是說你把錢籌到位不去考慮合理的分配就可以解決這樣的問題回應一下剛才鄭院長有提到韓國現在平均餘命高我們兩年但是有一點要注意就是韓國其實的不健康餘命這些年一直都在增加所以它中間跟台灣大概差距不健康餘命高於台灣一年所以如果把這個扣下來的話其實它高於我們的平均餘命大概是一年左右不到一年"},{"start":9661.946,"end":9662.106,"text":"主席"},{"start":9694.147,"end":9718.539,"text":"就是全面性的去保障這個點值的話其實不管是1.1塊或者是1.0.95都失去總額的精神因為總額就是在一定的額度下面要去發揮同儕制約的這個機制所以你如果這樣做的這個全面的去做這個保障的點值其實呢某個程度上真的是形同廢除總額那"},{"start":9720.04,"end":9744.958,"text":"我們在做總額制度是投入了非常多的人力物力跟社會成本包括我們每年的這個協商所以其實呢不適當在實施總額的制度下再去保障這個點子那這樣的話其實是有點多此一舉總額制度當然不完美有很多改進的空間公視可以修正額度可以合理調整但是呢"},{"start":9745.498,"end":9745.518,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9766.457,"end":9786.905,"text":"上限制改成目標制那我跟各位分享在德國門診是設定服務量的上限超過上限的就打折支付就是形同我國的合理門診量如果是醫院的話他採取的是個別醫院預算超過也是打折打幾折打三五折所以每一劑"},{"start":9787.825,"end":9787.845,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":9803.467,"end":9803.787,"text":"中文字幕提供"},{"start":9827.863,"end":9844.818,"text":"澳洲拿加拿大澳洲跟加拿大是用一般稅收他當然有預算政府就明白的撥裂這麼多錢就是放在這個醫療上面所以呢不會去玩讓這個論量計酬呢這個毫無這個限制的往上去成長"},{"start":9845.498,"end":9845.678,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":9871.716,"end":9871.836,"text":"總結我剛剛講的話"},{"start":9894.906,"end":9897.847,"text":"好 謝謝盧瑞芬教授接下來請財團法人 中華民國消基會名譽董事長 謝天仁董事長發言"},{"start":9936.306,"end":9963.256,"text":"各位先進我在健保大概待了10年的時間從一代健保待到二代健保那當然點滴在心頭那今天醫界提出來所謂的點子保障那我直接的下的結論就是要搞倒健保醫界很聰明他認為點子保障本身要從公務預算來那就是怎麼樣無限負擔了嘛"},{"start":9968.417,"end":9994.288,"text":"這個不符合我們健保上面大家必須要去面對的現況我們健保的現況是從開始健保開始以後就因為健保的會用快速增加實在受不了所以才開始慢慢建立總額制度那總額制度健保署本身又用所謂的論量計酬所以我們真正的問題是發生在什麼地方發生在我們的充量上面"},{"start":9995.248,"end":10018.375,"text":"那他的問題是在衝量,你用點子給他保障,那意思是怎麼樣?快馬駕鞭嘛,奔向混場所以我認為這個點子保障本身,基本上大概大家的思維裡面可能認為說那我可以由公務預算來分擔,或者是從互惠者這邊來負擔那我認為公務預算要負擔的東西太多了啦"},{"start":10019.369,"end":10043.242,"text":"我們要不要回歸到105年去想想這些問題105年發生了大概4個問題每年就讓健保本身的收入減少了115億以上剛剛我們細花姐有提到幾點比如說政府保障36%政府保派獎從來沒有戶到36%然後股票股息本來5000塊起徵那個好人"},{"start":10046.479,"end":10072.133,"text":"你竟然把它調到兩萬塊起徵我就覺得莫名其妙的事情怎麼會這樣我們不是要保障弱勢嗎我們不是社會保險嗎怎麼會反而降低那些強勢者本身的這個相關的補充保衛的負擔呢那其他當然就是各位可以看到厭倦本來78億住在健保割了20%只剩下50%到健保"},{"start":10073.679,"end":10095.234,"text":"這幾個大概加起來四個一年就至少少了150億少了150億各位想一想105年到現在當然會發生一些問題所以我們要去面對這些問題大家來調整大家來面對就是這個量跟價本身是相隨的"},{"start":10097.432,"end":10097.632,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":10116.555,"end":10136.98,"text":"補他的不足所以才會造成充量的現象但是我曾經問過健保署說明明每年都有非協商因素醫療服務成本的成長率為什麼這些成長率不調整他們的支付標準讓醫業到現在還很多的意見認為說剛剛呈現出來的那不是量的問題那是價的問題"},{"start":10143.101,"end":10167.202,"text":"價格問題我們要其實應該要很慎重的去面對我覺得這個東西基本上面涉及到他成本都增加了你為什麼在他支付標準上面不去給他增加不去給他調整但是量的問題要回來面對現實我們只有三道控制的防線第一道健保署第二道醫療機構第三道護衛者但是我們最近發現多了一道"},{"start":10168.567,"end":10177.619,"text":"老天爺給你call me 19各位我看了111年我們2億以上的公務2億以上的醫療機構申報的財務資料92%是賺錢的"},{"start":10183.703,"end":10204.253,"text":"百分之八虧錢為什麼 因為看診的少了嘛老天爺給你控制看看說醫療的需求量不應該這麼多啊我們台灣為什麼跟世界各國比起來我們相對怎麼樣 相對不健康我們的平均移民為什麼這樣的不健康啊 這麼長"},{"start":10206.83,"end":10229.32,"text":"這是我們要去面對那當然這些有一些國民健康署本身應該要做的我看國民健康署就會做的就是我補助你去檢查或怎麼樣這樣他不是補助你去預防你的疾病的發生那疾病不發生當然健保的用量就減少了嘛那疾病一發生就在健保上面來所以兩個是相隨的"},{"start":10231.161,"end":10249.767,"text":"所以我們的政府本身到底是要我們的老百姓多去看病還是要我們的老百姓本身要好好讓自己更健康這政府應該要面對的問題當然對健保署來講這不是他的職責但是我們認為在我們立法院的立法助攻裡面你看事情不能這樣去看"},{"start":10252.399,"end":10279.734,"text":"說把政府的這個這個這個公務預算調高到38好像說把所有健保的問題就解決家子這麼好解決勞藏問題就解決了啊對不對剛剛我們的這個健保的言論我們李一春教授也提到欸我們健保其實有很好的機制啊我們事實上有沒有落實我提健保法43條各位看看我們健保法本身門診本身支付額20%的訂例到現在都用訂額"},{"start":10281.107,"end":10299.954,"text":"不去轉診 地區醫院 區醫院 醫學中心 38 48 58 有沒有照做如果有 還有問題 那就倒過來 怎麼樣護衛者本身過度使用 護衛者你應該要怎麼樣 要把他的保費增加"},{"start":10301.209,"end":10330.078,"text":"負擔增加在我的想法50%可能都不夠可能70%才能解決我們整個門診上面可能5000億的這個量產生的這個充量的問題所以我最後要做的一個結論就是健保不能充量資物的標準要合理使用者要合理付費所以我認為健保法上面的6%的上限這個本來就應該要去面對不可能再6%"},{"start":10331.638,"end":10335.64,"text":"主席 各位學者專家們大家好"},{"start":10361.363,"end":10387.972,"text":"那個我想齁我先講一個就是剛才謝董事長在講齁我是覺得說我們今天探討的是一個民生的議題啦齁大家都是希望健保好齁方向是一致健康台灣我們希望我們讓民眾更健康所以我想情緒性的字眼其實是不必要因為他剛才講說我們這樣子提出八大一四團體提出典值的保障是所謂的要搞倒所謂的健保"},{"start":10388.973,"end":10404.739,"text":"那但是我要講的是說如果要講情緒化字眼我說如果我們不實施改革可能會搞倒醫護人員血汗醫護會更嚴重這樣講都不好所以我希望謝董事長我們就是好好講因為我們都是八大門派就是說"},{"start":10405.639,"end":10406.419,"text":"先澄清三件事"},{"start":10429.297,"end":10440.546,"text":"點值如果能夠通過我們醫事團體八大醫事團體今天早上已經承諾優先幫醫事人員加薪我這邊就我提出這個保證八大醫事團體說優先幫醫事人員加薪"},{"start":10442.708,"end":10465.159,"text":"所以點子通過的目的要優先幫醫事人員因為醫事人員有好的職業環境有好的待遇他才願意回到我們的職場嘛這是整個健康台灣的最核心動力在這個地方第二個我要澄清我們沒有要改制度沒有要破壞總額預算制度也沒有說總額預算制度就不要了變成論量計酬不是的"},{"start":10466.164,"end":10485.059,"text":"我們是主張從支出上限的那個CAP改成Target就是變支出上限變支出目標好那接下來我就講什麼叫支出上限跟支出目標簡單的講如果今年我們的這是一個概念當然很多我們可以去修正今年的健保總額是8700億8700億這健保一開始核定8700億8700億元就是8700億點在這個範圍內1.1億元的保障"},{"start":10495.882,"end":10508.759,"text":"但是好可能我們會醫療利用率的提高所以我們會超過8700億點超過的部分國外打折給付超過越多打折越多超過10%就打折10%來給付"},{"start":10512.083,"end":10528.624,"text":"超過的部分由誰來支付由公務預算編列來支付所以這個跟民眾調保費並沒有必然性的關係因為超過的部分是由公務預算要來補那這時候大家會講說會長你為什麼要這樣設計這樣一個制度因為我跟各位報告"},{"start":10529.965,"end":10555.859,"text":"過去22年以前的總額預算制度已經實施22年了大家去想走老路到不了新地方啦我們現在手機拿出來都iPhone15了如果我們還在探討過去在用這個固定電話的時代那個是過去的時代我們總要隨著時代環境的變遷與時俱進我們的制度所以我的想法就是說我們過去的這個總額預算就是從零開始就可能面臨打折的問題"},{"start":10556.94,"end":10581.196,"text":"可是新的制度是8700億的合定範圍內先保障1.1元超過的部分我們來打折給付那這個部分來講以公務預算來這個編列這個部分來講的話為什麼要這樣子做的設計是說在過去的健保總額支付制度大家去想一件事政府把總額預算都編好了那編好以後呢反正就在這個範圍內"},{"start":10583.022,"end":10600.189,"text":"衝量新澳新科技的加入全部由誰承擔預算跟需求的差距預算跟需求的差距是誰承擔請教各位醫療提供者70萬的醫事人員跟所有的醫療機構承受著需求跟預算之間的差異"},{"start":10601.55,"end":10625.679,"text":"可是我們在22年前我不瞞各位講醫務本業都還有8-9%的盈餘所以我們可以承擔這個差距可是現在經過22年後這個差距已經沒辦法承擔了所以才會有醫界的最近這一兩年的現象所以要縮小這個差距唯一的辦法就是說我們就是要把這個差距怎麼樣要把它縮小所以這個部分來講我們才會認為是說"},{"start":10628.2,"end":10655.578,"text":"在整個需求跟預算的差距由醫療提供者完全承擔這個是不對的那如果說我們把它改成目標制超過的部分要由公務預算去補的時候我們是要請政府跟我們一起努力拿出一些實質性的作為去控制那個量因為對醫界來講我只有在8700億點裡面我也不會想充量啊盡量在1.1元的範圍內因為超過的部分是要被打折給付的"},{"start":10656.378,"end":10677.001,"text":"所以在這個情況之下我是覺得是說我們這樣的一個做法就希望說讓醫界跟我們的這個主管機關共同合作去處理這樣一個問題所以這是這個部分那另外呢我們都知道那個我們賴總統提出健康台灣的政策啦那健康台灣的政策裡面最重要的是說他"},{"start":10677.421,"end":10693.281,"text":"提到是說希望2030年也能降低癌症的死亡率等等所以我認為是說要達到健康台灣的根本的前提就是要提高對醫療的支出醫療的支出是投資不是成本大家都知道尤其是現在5月27號世界衛生組織即將要召開大會"},{"start":10696.204,"end":10714.37,"text":"那世界衛生組織也不斷的在呼籲世界各國政府在疫情後提高對醫療的支出他說這樣子才能夠建構一個完整的公衛體系跟強而有力韌性的醫療體系所以呢一點一元的這個保障當然這個都可以去討論但重點就是希望讓我們的醫療機構有足夠的什麼財務韌性"},{"start":10718.912,"end":10718.932,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10740.888,"end":10741.828,"text":"我們一起來為健康台灣共同努力謝謝"},{"start":10773.188,"end":10773.408,"text":"董事長"},{"start":10792.796,"end":10816.511,"text":"周委、各位委員、還有各位現場的先進大家好那一年前其實醫改會跟在場有許多來自不同領域的專家以及代表其實就已經有出席由委員會主辦在健保制度現況與展望公聽會裡面其實就已經紛紛有提出許多的成額跟建言但是很無奈的一年後健保制度跟困境並沒有帶來太大的改變"},{"start":10817.432,"end":10817.452,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10836.479,"end":10836.499,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10853.379,"end":10853.399,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":10877.054,"end":10903.44,"text":"這個醫療費用不再受到約束作為一個醫改團體我們不反對給醫界合理的資源以及待遇但是要健保永續民眾健康跟醫界共好還是應該務實建立在可負擔公平性以及永續性的這個核心精神來理性討論而不是淪為政治支票甚至是政黨惡鬥下競相喊價的這樣一個籌碼那可負擔這部分其實已經有蠻多的"},{"start":10904.64,"end":10923.325,"text":"先進其實剛剛已經有提到其實我們早就已經面臨受不抵之但是我們現在保費成長其實已經來到4倍之多但是我們繳保費的人是越來越少那輕壯族群的負擔是越來越重而且高齡化的人口也已經是健保開辦的兩倍之多那明年就要步入超高齡"},{"start":10924.025,"end":10951.094,"text":"那除了我們面臨到這個超高齡的問題以外還有一半的人口其實是有罹患慢性病的這樣一個情況官方報告也顯示說健保在醫療支出成長最快速的族群其實就是慢性病族群那不僅出現在他們的藥費檢驗檢查費用他們的平均次數就醫次數更高達33次是否應該從這部分來去思考如何來減少甚至提供整合醫療的部分"},{"start":10952.185,"end":10971.56,"text":"在這樣一個趨勢下健保其實早就已經很難加速納進民眾所想要的新藥新科技那民眾在醫療支出上其實也不像過往一樣只有負擔健保費其實更多的還要再負擔部分負擔掛號費還有越來越多的自費醫療那過去健保其實保障民眾不會因病而平"},{"start":10972.56,"end":10990.327,"text":"但現在民眾卻可能因為層層堆疊這個就醫的經濟障礙減少必要就醫尤其是我們有接到不少來自住在醫療資源分配較不足的區域的民眾的來電甚至是還有220萬的近貧人口讓健保可能會影響時大"},{"start":10991.767,"end":11009.646,"text":"那近期也有醫界大嘆國人頻頻就醫但是卻可能未必有更好的醫療結果那剛剛其實也有蠻多先進有提出就是台灣有非常多項的健康指標其實落後國際的所以即便修法通過政府需要投入大量的公務預算但公務預算何嘗又不是來自於民脂民膏"},{"start":11010.367,"end":11024.32,"text":"民眾就醫負擔加重,付出更多的保費,自費項目更多,付出更多的工農,但是政府能夠承諾可以買到更有價值跟具醫療品質的服務嗎?公平性的部分,其實剛剛有提到蠻多公平性的部分,包含說費機不公,"},{"start":11026.745,"end":11047.33,"text":"這個也是長年被政府樹枝高歌那剛剛也有蠻多先進有提到說健保其實依法給付費用給特約機構那醫事人員主要的薪資還是由院所來主導分配因此保障點值提高了院所收益是不是就能夠代表第一線的待遇勞動環境就能被改善"},{"start":11048.783,"end":11048.803,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":11069.913,"end":11089.227,"text":"賺錢的加速其實遠超於過去的加速來到了快190家那在這樣的一個情況下11我們也看到醫院跟西醫的浮動點值來到了0.92到1.09但是在那一年度在區醫院跟地區醫院的人事佔率成本卻是下降的"},{"start":11089.907,"end":11113.803,"text":"所以當我們的點值跟賺錢的情況都比往年來的好我們有看到他們有優先來投入改善人力的這部分嘛那另外其實針對醫療服務提供端至關重要的支付制度改革其實近10年來也都沒有進行通盤檢討所以針對近年醫界有許多不合理的訴求反而是有求必應"},{"start":11115.184,"end":11137.422,"text":"缺乏這樣子一個通盤周圍的檢討反而更加惡現在給付不公的一個情況例如以前醫界主張說不同科別門診加成應該要不同但是各自申請下本來就可能會造成不同專科別的給付失衡但近期醫界又主張說各專科的加成應該要相同最後健保署不僅買單還加錢"},{"start":11139.483,"end":11166.432,"text":"那之前也發生過剛剛藤秘書長有提到的地區醫院的急診、診察費、住院護理費加成竟然比區醫院醫學中心來得更高所以它的同工同酬的理念其實是整個被破壞的也擔心醫療分配的問題健保署其實也在健保改革日記有提到說加成或保障某科的點子可能會因單價上升造成整體點子的下降這個不能打地署來處理"},{"start":11168.109,"end":11196.001,"text":"甚至在一屆沒有提出執行目標沒有評估指標沒有事辦齊成的協商提案的時候政府一樣買單完全忘了他應該要擔任第三方負起管理及監督責任所以近年其實這樣子一個總額精神已經淡然無存其實健保署應該要負起最大的一個責任那永續性其實剛剛其實已經蠻多專家有提了那我們目前為止為止支付方式還是以論量計酬為大宗"},{"start":11197.062,"end":11218.987,"text":"那剛剛各界也有提出許多國際上的管控錯法﹐無論是要回到過去一屆抗疫﹐放大河山回推的制度﹐還是國際上的DRG﹐甚至是論人記仇﹐論病例記仇﹐論職記仇政府都有責任針對各界提出來方案﹐來提出這個財務跟利弊分析﹐才能爭取最大的共鳴共識"},{"start":11220.507,"end":11233.59,"text":"那尤其健康台灣其實重點就是要擴大在預防這個健康預防醫學以及健康促進這個投資上面那另外不好意思可以幫我用下一頁"},{"start":11235.171,"end":11253.482,"text":"其實今天最應該被受邀出席公聽會是賴清德總統以及邱太元部長這個攸關新政府在此案的藍圖到底是什麼可惜在這兩週我們其實一直聽不到但是健保署其實也在日前1114年總額協商方向規劃會議裡面有提到說"},{"start":11254.463,"end":11272.235,"text":"接下來要朝全國全面導入DRG執行RBRBS跟大家一計畫政策目標在這邊也要藉此呼籲保險人應該要盡快公佈相關的期程規劃然後也要請各位立委來用力監督才有力各方來討論 謝謝好 謝謝林雅慧執行長接下來請蘇清泉委員發言"},{"start":11289.6,"end":11305.707,"text":"謝謝 謝謝主席這個修法的案是我提出來所以我來講講可能大家比較聽得懂我覺得今天壓力最小應該是健保局跟衛福部啦所以那個總額做總額啊拚拚給你們不夠就自己互動互動0.5、0.6、0.3都你們做的事情"},{"start":11314.229,"end":11333.344,"text":"但是我想他們怎麼會這樣呢?施主長你們怎麼會這樣呢?他一直找我在講怎麼來解決某些問題他還跟我提出不然的話就是住院來保障保障點子一點一塊我聽了"},{"start":11334.758,"end":11356.376,"text":"很高興齁但是如果你的這裡的保障點子是1.1塊然後去壓榨到其他浮動點子這樣就沒意義了那些浮動點子就三天兩天了就不用浮動了嘛所以你們在總額裡面然後這裡保障那裡保障這裡保障1.1塊錢有啊 藥費就1.1塊錢啊所以2000多億的藥費就這樣呼嚕呼嚕的就沒了"},{"start":11362.813,"end":11384.683,"text":"然後呢反過頭來新藥新科技剛剛我們陳時中前部長他剛剛講了一個良心話他說健保要總額要瘦身那終於講出良心話了總額要瘦身當然要瘦身啊前幾天我們時書長時書長講一個罕病"},{"start":11390.313,"end":11411.559,"text":"每一年每一年付聽了很高興對這些弱勢團體但是你是包山包海你什麼都要包現在長照長照每天每天都在吃健保的豆腐"},{"start":11412.87,"end":11436.451,"text":"我很後悔在第8屆我當召委的時候把長照服務法通過了那個時候馬英九總統說趕快 趕快把長照保險法掃過去他就說李益春在做次長 對不對我們都做那個要緊張不過那個時候我們的蔡英文主席那個時候堅決反對所以那個案就不去"},{"start":11437.452,"end":11457.117,"text":"我剛才在問他說,那個時候的長照保險如果有過,現在會長得什麼樣子?日本就是兩個,有醫療保險跟介護醫療保險,他們有兩個保險那我們在訂長照服務法的時候,我去到那裡,我帶親爸的人去那裡考察兩次"},{"start":11459.148,"end":11486.585,"text":"結果他們說他們的介乎醫療當下那個時候就那一年就9.4兆日元我一去就很囂張他說我已經撐不住了他們的首相那個是安倍剛剛就任他想把醫療保險跟長照保險把它募集在一起看看能不能重複的地方能不能省下來那後來好像有部分募集在一起併在一起"},{"start":11487.355,"end":11504.152,"text":"那我們現在就用一個醫療保險在支撐醫療還在部分支撐長照保險沒有長照保險之名但是我們在付長照保險之時反正有很多人說這個育成育成當然也要照顧"},{"start":11507.625,"end":11532.979,"text":"医疗要有韧性啊 啊医疗韧性是啥韧性就是reserve 要有一股一股肥啦 一股粉啦啊大家都散屁屁啦 要再韧性不只要韧性韧性是要有經濟的支撐所以呢我們學者專家包括政所下 他們都是一路走來伴隨著健保在走飛到"},{"start":11535.193,"end":11553.824,"text":"關頭了,我們不會提出來現在就是無處理不可以的時候民進黨都沒提案,我提一個案,黃毅民提一個案,黨團提一個案民進黨我在等你提案,不敢提,社會不敢提,新的補定不知道要怎麼補總統也不知道要怎麼補,你說得這麼大堆,你自己說1.1元喔搞清楚喔"},{"start":11559.238,"end":11560.058,"text":"三個總統候選人都講一樣0.95朝1.1元購買購買購買購買"},{"start":11573.991,"end":11598.905,"text":"賴總統在唱什麼啊你是腎臟科醫師大家都頭腦都不錯啦我心臟外科啊我們王正熙是腫瘤科的我們好好的來跟他唱啊為什麼在那邊我堅持要出委員會當然也要出委員會不出委員會你就沒壓力啊你就擺爛啊就討論我們主席跟我們講說等一下討論討論我告訴你你再討論三年就沒結果啦"},{"start":11601.607,"end":11622.082,"text":"因為過去10年就是這樣討論在討論所以在疫情的時候我們很感謝衛生部也回過頭來照顧我們的醫界這是事實但是我有跟大家講那些特別預算補助所有醫事人員的全部都照冊照冊照冊醫療院手人一毛錢"},{"start":11624.15,"end":11635.657,"text":"沒人敢因為要付薪酬所以你現在剛剛在講說醫改會在講說醫事人員的薪水都沒有增加等等我可以在這邊要求我們衛福部"},{"start":11636.724,"end":11650.169,"text":"我們以後報財報上去就把醫事這邊老黨很簡單啊這個護理人員這個某某某他一年領多少錢從博恩報給你們給你們一個一個去檢視這個不難這個很簡單的事情我們以後的財報就把連人事費用都報上去我們醫界敢這樣承諾就這樣幹有沒有問題沒有問題啊不能說"},{"start":11666.004,"end":11694.526,"text":"要 最後講30秒有這一書 我的有書 我跟他說藥師調劑費 什麼費 什麼費 什麼費我全部都給你我還加三成給你你們去付你們自己的薪水他們不要因為他們要求的是起薪90萬年薪然後最好每個月要10萬塊不然的話 外面大數藥局一個月就是10萬塊"},{"start":11696.667,"end":11713.18,"text":"所以有錢也欠沒人那我們婦理學院會等一下記者會長會講我說你幫這邊要愛護病肥啊這邊要愛顧心事還要照辦你在裝笑的所以我們只能一樣所以再一次的跟大家報告"},{"start":11714.673,"end":11736.166,"text":"一定要討論一定要好好討論一定要解決不解決不行我們想我們剛剛陳時中前部長講說總額要減量這個或許也是一個考慮的地方以上謝謝好謝謝蘇清泉委員發言接下來請廖偉祥委員發言"},{"start":11747.214,"end":11769.083,"text":"謝謝主席還有我們在場所有尊敬的學者專家還有委員和我們的這個衛福部的所有的長官貴賓們很感謝那健保點值不足問題不可歸就醫界因為醫師開設診所並不知道其他人的服務量能增加多少那醫療法也規定醫師沒有拒絕病人的權利"},{"start":11770.714,"end":11783.22,"text":"依照法律提供病人服務解決病痛或疾病反而收入減少這個制度是有調整的必要以上這些話是我們賴清德準總統說的"},{"start":11786.769,"end":11812.868,"text":"那健康是1喔財富學歷經歷等等喔我想都是0那沒有1再多的0也沒有用所以我這邊也要先感謝全國的醫事人員還有守護國人的健康也是守護國家的根基那再一次我必須強調一下醫療價值要等於醫療品質也要等於健保點值喔那這句話很重要所以通常會重複三遍但是為了節省大家的時間喔"},{"start":11813.959,"end":11843.179,"text":"各行各業都有專業那我想大家互相尊重而尊重專業的第一步就是這個專業給付因為做功德這件事情偶一為之還可以但是絕對不能套用在專業給付上那如果要長期要求專業給付要打折那就會是一種霸凌啊會是一種踐踏專業我想也沒有人這樣做沒有人願意這樣做那今年以來包含我們的英國包含韓國等國家的醫事人員都走上街頭抗議"},{"start":11844.119,"end":11870.239,"text":"但每個國家醫事人員上街頭的成因不同當然我們也不希望我們的醫護上街頭我想醫護人員也不會想上街頭那迫使醫護人員上街頭不僅是國家悲哀最重要的是也會損及我們全民的健康權益所以試問大家能夠想像當你的家人在急診的時候很焦急等待要診治但是卻沒有足夠的醫護大家會不會心急如焚"},{"start":11872.397,"end":11889.043,"text":"問題這就是這個狀況是誰造成的那我們要不要面對問題要不要來充分的討論來趕快來解決問題所以其實剛剛我也有聽到很多委員說或很多上來發表的專家學者說其實今天在場最重要的應該是賴清德總總統跟我們的部長那"},{"start":11891.021,"end":11905.38,"text":"但是身為民意代表我們也必須做一個表態和推進這件事情這也是剛剛蘇清泉委員說為什麼要趕快把這個醫師法推出委員會趕快讓大家迫使大家再來討論不然這件事情過了幾十年還是一樣"},{"start":11906.584,"end":11928.878,"text":"那健保需不需要改當然需要那過去有沒有在進行改革其實也是有啦但是為何這個時間點要進行修法就是因為過去我想政府會認為這個健保的問題頂多是慢性病慢慢治慢慢改殊不知健保走了快30年支付制度支給付制度也必須與時俱進的改"},{"start":11930.279,"end":11945.115,"text":"更要符合當下的GDP的水準在醫療現場的專業人員也一直在流失願意投入醫療的人也越來越少從這幾年新聞不斷報導這個急診室也大排長龍甚至排在醫院大廳原因為何"},{"start":11946.175,"end":11968.876,"text":"那我想難道大家要繼續把這個當成不當一回事嗎這也是我們現在要強調現在的健保改革也需要一個強心針需要AED來搶救也是要先把狀況先穩定把命保住然後再來慢慢治療最後我也要呼籲全民健康的權益不容打折那改善血汗醫護要儘速啟動健保修法好謝謝"},{"start":11971.567,"end":11982.194,"text":"好 謝謝廖偉祥委員發言接下來請邱振軍委員 邱振軍 邱振軍委員不在接下來請中華民國護理師護士工會理事長暨理事長發言"},{"start":11992.042,"end":12019.595,"text":"主席還有各位長官各位學者專家各位大家早午安啦好我想這個健保制度的改革我想就是在護理界來講我們是一定支持怎麼樣做改革那我們知道這個從全民健保的總額支付制度開始醫療生態跟醫療制度面臨的轉型還有一些變遷那會議專業的領域也受到相當大的打擊"},{"start":12020.771,"end":12042.684,"text":"首當其衝的就是護理人力遭到縮減臨床的護理人員在持續面對沉重的病人照顧的負荷下工作滿意度日益的低下護理照顧品質受到更嚴重的影響那以醫務人員的血汗換來的第一身為護理人員的我們如何感到驕傲"},{"start":12044.435,"end":12059.802,"text":"衛福部的次長曾經講過健保永續人才臂力及精進的基礎建設才能夠穩坐世界龍頭但是當護理人員一直在消失中缺少護理人員的健保還能永續發展嗎"},{"start":12061.796,"end":12080.313,"text":"我想會議人員在消失裡面我這個要換一下會議人員在消失然後我們看到我們的離職率我們從過去的10.3%的離職率到現在已經到11.74我們的空缺率從4.7到6.53"},{"start":12084.136,"end":12097.426,"text":"可以看到各醫院的人力缺短缺非常嚴重而陸續面臨關闖的窘境影響到民眾就醫的權益所以剛才有特別提到急診庸室人力不夠護理人力不夠要關闖醫師不夠還不用關闖護理師不夠要關闖"},{"start":12101.949,"end":12123.686,"text":"所以沒有護理師就沒有未來那我想從健保的給付範圍裡面剛剛很多學者專家特別提到的有很多的給付都是給醫院沒有錯醫院要足夠的錢給醫事人員但是我們回過頭來看到底健保給付也給護理相關的到底有哪些部分我們來看一下在西醫裡面有護理費"},{"start":12126.028,"end":12143.275,"text":"牙醫不斷要求要護理人員沒有護理會中醫要有七科九學分沒有護理會我們目前拿最多是居家護理的部分從104年調整到現在再也沒有調整過我們的第九部護理人員的投入為止也是等一下看一下那個費用"},{"start":12144.435,"end":12163.522,"text":"還有論病記酬 住院診斷 品質支付 完全沒有副理會你說護理師怎麼可以跟醫院說我要更高的薪資 怎麼樣尊重專業給我更多的好但是我相信只要在幾戶上面能夠把它加進去改革我們所有的支付標準跟支付制度 我相信這個對我們的護理員來講會有更多的"},{"start":12166.443,"end":12166.583,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12182.242,"end":12206.974,"text":"但是我們很努力的爭取到首日從111年首日的護理費調升百分之三十所以我們才會有第一天的費用大於百分之三十這樣的一個基礎我覺得這都是護理機一直在努力幫護理人員爭取的相關的費用我們也是要讓醫院的管理者看到其實護理是很努力的在付出然後也希望讓我們有一些具體的數字來呈現我們真正要能夠表現出來我們的費用"},{"start":12211.636,"end":12219.962,"text":"所以你會看到我們的居家護理這個是最早健保幾戶居家護理的費用從第一類到第四類你看到我們的出去訪視才1050點那這樣的一個費用我要去照顧病人情況之下"},{"start":12226.787,"end":12227.308,"text":"第9項 所有支付標準"},{"start":12251.969,"end":12259.333,"text":"我們的打點滴3天75塊現在一包一杯的紅茶都要75點不得了75塊所以我要看這一張我們健保長年低廉的幾戶護理專業然後包括這些還包括所有的耗材然後健保幾戶25點每日能夠買什麼"},{"start":12273.081,"end":12273.101,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12299.899,"end":12315.611,"text":"這對專業來講 你在外面 你看我們算了成本 真的是 這個都沒有調整的所以所有的幾戶的標準 我覺得應該要重新去看 怎麼樣來看這個幾戶的部分或者你會看到我們的整個總額制度的浮動點子裡面 我們護理勞務貢獻大打折扣"},{"start":12319.034,"end":12322.355,"text":"2003年開始健保的費用不斷的在提升成長了2.2倍但是以醫學中心來講我們的護理點只是成長1.28倍那從這樣的24小時裡面不間斷的專業照護的勞務服務付出的護理費加上打折點數平均比那個青年旅館還要便宜"},{"start":12340.539,"end":12344.782,"text":"真的是很不值得所以護理師的消失有可能就是因為點子或是剛剛講過的我覺得剛剛講的很好健保、醫院的管理者、消費者代表當然還有這個天災"},{"start":12355.569,"end":12371.899,"text":"那所有天災出來我們大概都是走在第一線所以我覺得所有制度要改革怎麼讓醫事人員能夠在友善的環境更能夠去願意在這邊工作那你看我們曾經算過合理的護理費這是2018年還可以再精算那是2018年的我們算過如果用護病比的話關護理醫學中心來講我們需要到276這是圓喔不是點子喔"},{"start":12382.705,"end":12389.19,"text":"如果你是用點子的話那就要被打折扣了我們現在給多少錢給948點還要被打折所以你看看假設我們用這些數據來看看護理人員價值我們是落差多少所以我在想說這樣的一個折扣一個這樣的改革必須要讓我們的醫護人員得到健康的身心如果我們不願意留在職場護理師不斷的消失我們這邊談了那麼多的改革"},{"start":12410.785,"end":12417.31,"text":"老實說真的只是會讓雪上加霜那大家要齊心同力的來改善我們醫事人員的薪資剛剛看到我們那個洪子仁這個醫務管理這個學位說第一個優先改善醫事人員的薪資我也認同剛剛這個委員說的"},{"start":12427.858,"end":12427.878,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12448.391,"end":12456.213,"text":"所以我想這個健保給付改善醫療院所都優先改善醫事人員薪資這我們絕對支持那也期待新政府上任能夠兌現承諾讓我們這個點值能夠保障點值然後剛剛特別提到的讓我們的人員能夠得到相對的報酬最重要是讓我們能夠安适的能夠得到休息這樣病人健康才得以保障所以我想護理界我只能代表我們所有19萬的護理師職業的護理師在這邊要肯定的呼籲所有的"},{"start":12478.78,"end":12495.087,"text":"團體所有的政府機關所有的民間代表都能夠支持這件事情謝謝好謝謝紀理師長學者專家及委員的發言全部發言完畢那現在請行政機關做整體回應先請石署長"},{"start":12507.705,"end":12535.158,"text":"趙偉還有王委員現場的還有蘇委員以及我們現場所有的與會的專家學者貴賓那這個很謝謝趙偉安排今天的公聽會就近期大家所關心的健保點值的低下問題來做一個很全面性的討論那麼我們也聽到了很多寶貴的建議那麼容我用幾分鐘的時間很快的跟大家做一些說明"},{"start":12535.758,"end":12541.425,"text":"看下一張第一個往下"},{"start":12546.486,"end":12565.058,"text":"這是剛剛大概我們幾位的健保設計初期的這些學者專家們大概有提到健保初期的時候是以論量為主沒有總額但是造成當時有很大的財務的衝擊後來陸陸續續在1998年開始陸續從牙科總額預算開始逐漸導入"},{"start":12576.947,"end":12590.904,"text":"總額 看下一張那麼在這個整個的過程裡頭那麼其實總額只是一個開端更重要的是後面各位也都剛剛很多提到那麼在很多的評比上面我們的醫療品質"},{"start":12592.566,"end":12592.886,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":12608.72,"end":12608.76,"text":"主席"},{"start":12630.745,"end":12631.045,"text":"下一張"},{"start":12647.558,"end":12662.42,"text":"今天其實委員的提案裡面應該是有兩個部分一個是希望總額能夠從現有的支出上限制改變到支出目標制另外一個就是保障點值"},{"start":12662.881,"end":12690.057,"text":"那其實這兩個是兩回事因為在支出目標制的做法上它仍然是有一個上限那麼大概也很少去提到保障點值這是兩件事情的討論那這邊只是提供這個有關於目前那麼學界所認知的支出上限制跟支出目標制它的差別我想剛剛幾位學者也已經提到我就不再贅述看下一張"},{"start":12691.36,"end":12710.223,"text":"那麼至於各國的實施行情我們這邊也把他稍微做了一些整理那麼包含德國剛剛這個盧瑞芬老師也特別提到那麼雖是採那麼目標上限目標制那麼但是呢他是對個別醫師跟醫院"},{"start":12710.503,"end":12710.703,"text":"下一張"},{"start":12735.59,"end":12741.135,"text":"至於說為什麼我們今日的點值會下降呢?"},{"start":12741.135,"end":12758.789,"text":"趙委也特別要我們做一點分析這裡先提出的兩個總額的分析一個是醫院總額的分析從醫院總額我們跟疫情前相比為什麼點值會下降當然來自於服務量的上升從整個服務量的上升來看"},{"start":12760.13,"end":12760.37,"text":"看下一張"},{"start":12783.575,"end":12783.595,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":12808.479,"end":12819.505,"text":"主要是在就醫的點數每次就醫的點數的貢獻是最大那麼其次才是每人的就醫次數的成長"},{"start":12820.885,"end":12846.823,"text":"在最後是病人數那病人數這邊的影響最大的應該是在北區因為他整個投保的人口那麼成長率就高達3.3那麼這個是各區的奉獻所以從北區以外來講那麼最主要的門診的申報的增加最主要就是每人就醫次數跟每次就醫點數的成長看下一張"},{"start":12847.932,"end":12863.462,"text":"那至於每次的就醫點 這個申報數會成長 那麼成長在哪個地方呢 那麼再把它深入的分析之後 那麼主要是來自於三個因素 一個是診察費的調整"},{"start":12865.203,"end":12874.91,"text":"主要就是檢查檢驗的費用合計起來這三個因素就是高達了九成三看下一張那麼至於檢查費的調整在過去在這個從108年以後到112年之間那麼分別有這些的支付標準的調整請大家參考下一張"},{"start":12894.744,"end":12921.198,"text":"那麼至於這個這個疾病別的影響呢是影響藥費跟檢查檢驗那麼最大的因素所以我們再把它分析之後就發現呢那麼慢性病的影響跟癌症的影響其實是最大特別是糖尿病跟腫瘤這兩個疾病那麼貢獻度是最大占了整個占比增加的32.6%看下一張"},{"start":12924.199,"end":12947.62,"text":"我們在看它的成長趨勢跟佔比趨勢這個圓球的大小就是它所佔的比例所以最高的其實在醫院的部分是糖尿病在左邊這邊可是就成長趨勢來講那麼就是在右上角的肺癌還有乳癌"},{"start":12949.802,"end":12969.335,"text":"這是最大的這個成長這是成長率來看的話是這樣那麼以個別疾病當然是以糖尿病高血壓疾病在左邊的這邊是影響最大看下一張所以總結來講整個點值的下降在醫院總額部門主要是因為門診建樹跟單價的費用成長"},{"start":12973.137,"end":12998.135,"text":"而門診費用的成長裡面又受到每人就醫次數跟每次的點數的影響最大點數的增加則來自於藥費檢查檢驗費跟診察費那麼來自於癌症跟慢性病的就醫再往下至於在基層的部分同樣的邏輯分析可以看到它的成長呢"},{"start":12999.056,"end":12999.076,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":13020.635,"end":13032.199,"text":"那麼所以他的每次的就醫的點數會增加那麼主要是來自於三個一個是診察費這裡佔了30%的貢獻度藥費31.6%的貢獻度檢查檢驗的診療費是佔了29.7%這裡合計也是超過了九成是來自於這三個費用看下一張"},{"start":13043.963,"end":13072.122,"text":"至於這三個費用分別是整查費是因為在這個標準上支付標準上有的調整看下一張那麼至於這個藥費的增加主要是來自於慢性病患者的移動左邊這個可以看得到這幾年下來西醫的慢性病的佔率那麼從37%增加到了39.4%所以它有逐年的在成長"},{"start":13074.243,"end":13098.431,"text":"從漫遷的開利率也可以看得到過去在基層的漫遷的開利率大概只有4成那麼多數是採用日記藥費但是到現在已經成長到46.6%那麼這也會是造成它的這個費用藥費的成長的一個重要的影響看下一張"},{"start":13099.531,"end":13122.711,"text":"那麼至於它的檢查檢驗費也是造成它單價上升的最主要的因素從這個球裡面可以看得到它是最大在於檢查檢驗的成長那另外一個就是復健治療這邊佔了很大的一個左邊這邊就是復健治療為主所以這個是在基層的分析總結來講看下一張"},{"start":13123.652,"end":13123.672,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":13141.849,"end":13163.602,"text":"因而導致相關的藥費跟檢查費用的增加看下一張所以我們的建議是對於短期而言長期而言那麼我們對總額制度需要有一些檢討跟改善那麼朝向目標制也好或者是在上限制這個底下來做出彈性的做法"},{"start":13164.002,"end":13164.322,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13183.991,"end":13209.956,"text":"依據這個非預期風險或非預期政策改變的影響來補典值到0.9之外那麼對於來年就是接下來我們的114年開始要做總的協商的時候我們也會去考量第一個在基層的部分是因為有這個慢性病人的移動那麼造成的費用的成長那麼確實是應該要予以調整"},{"start":13210.356,"end":13210.376,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":13228.223,"end":13246.988,"text":"這個疫情之前有推動的大型醫院門診減量的措施那麼應該要開始思考要重啟這樣的合理門診量的措施但是另一部分為了要維護到集中症的照護量能應該考慮逐步的擴大"},{"start":13247.828,"end":13248.208,"text":"全面性對這個"},{"start":13274.417,"end":13274.437,"text":"公聽會議"},{"start":13295.597,"end":13315.941,"text":"至於衝擊的部分資料上很快給各位看一下看下一張那如果是討論的是保證點值的話那麼需要的費用在這個地方以0.95而言大概今年大概是需要7億那麼705億那麼到1.1塊錢的話就是1154億左右的預算需求看下一張"},{"start":13322.162,"end":13351.865,"text":"那麼如果沒有這個額外的預算因為113年已經是所有預算執行中如果沒有額外的預算支援的話就必須從我們的安全準備金來支應那這樣到年底的話呢就會不足一個月的這個安全準備金的缺口那明年的費率如果要達到平衡費率的話就必須是超過我們現在健保法的法定上限的費率才得以平衡"},{"start":13354.467,"end":13370.097,"text":"這是1.1塊錢的時候的推估也請各位參考當然對於如果說把這個點子保障入法可能的影響包含對資源分配的影響對分級醫療的影響也都給各位做一個參考"},{"start":13376.885,"end":13395.677,"text":"結論是 持續進行健保改革與總額預算制度的調整 確有這個需要我們會積極研議各項配套措施 包括上面提到的初步建議以上謝謝各位專家的指導"},{"start":13402.323,"end":13416.432,"text":"趙吉仁以及各位委員以及各位學者專家那今天非常感謝我們的趙吉仁以及我們的委員會安排今天的會議今天的公聽會讓我們能夠聆聽各方的聲音那各位所給我們的指教那我想我們都非常仔細的聆聽並且來做記錄那剛才實際上"},{"start":13419.394,"end":13419.414,"text":"委員長"},{"start":13447.412,"end":13448.513,"text":"請問行政院主席總署這邊要回應嗎?在這邊做一下結論"},{"start":13475.823,"end":13499.852,"text":"一據立法院職權行使法規定委員會應提出公聽會報告送交本院全體委員及出席者公聽會報告作為審查特定議案之參考那我們會把各位寶貴的意見還有書面的資料匯編成冊分送給本院的全體委員以及與會的政府機關代表學者專家參閱那今天真的非常"},{"start":13501.232,"end":13502.012,"text":"本次公聽會到此結束"},{"start":13528.957,"end":13531.4,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13563.186,"end":13564.628,"text":"委員會主席"},{"start":13578.599,"end":13589.676,"text":"委員會主席"}]}},{"id":"15880","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Full/1M/15880","video_url":"https://h264media01.ly.gov.tw:443/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1M/b41997f390c3528ed5d059b51b1cfc709b5fa2f296a935343be8d109af184be4668ba2f3544fa9e15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」等2案。\n【5月6日及8日二天一次會】）","type":"Full","date":"2024-05-06","start_time":"2024-05-06T08:29:59+08:00","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1"},"features":["ai-transcript"],"end_time":"2024-05-06T12:16:00+08:00","委員名稱":"完整會議","duration":13561,"委員發言時間":"08:29:59 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,"text":"接著,今日議程安排審查委員賴士葆等22人及委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具地方稅法通則第4條條文修正草案等2案。請委員說明提案要指後,再請財政部回應。有沒有人要說明要指?請賴士葆賴委員3分鐘,謝謝。"},{"start":1947.934,"end":1965.33,"text":"謝謝主席及各位先進那麼本席提的今天的稅法通則地方稅法通則第四條的修正草案就是我們現在看這個地方稅是分兩大類一個是地方訂的"},{"start":1966.638,"end":1980.25,"text":"一個是中央定的可是呢在我們現在這個現行的第四條裡面是不管地方定的或者中央定的就是最多就30%"},{"start":1981.775,"end":1998.333,"text":"最多就30%裡面你可以去增加那這個地方稅法通則是很早以前就定了這個讓地方的首長、地方的議會可以自行來決定他們要增加哪一些稅所以"},{"start":2002.699,"end":2021.057,"text":"全部30%裡面全部都是由中央政府來決定的話我覺得這個對地方政府也不夠尊重所以我的提案呢就是講的就是讓中央政府的手不要伸到地方政府"},{"start":2021.698,"end":2044.25,"text":"主要政府你訂了地方稅你訂之外地方政府他一定是行政首長提出來或者議員提出來但是一定經過地方議會的同意才有成立這個才是所謂的地方稅而30%這個限制就不要涵蓋這一部分了"},{"start":2045.551,"end":2064.387,"text":"簡單講就是中央定的地方稅他最多只能調成30%但是地方政府經過地方議會自己通過的一個地方稅法那就不要受這個30%的限制就是由地方議會來負權責地方政府來負權責這樣子的話才能夠充分的來尊重"},{"start":2068.55,"end":2068.951,"text":"接著請財政部李政事清華回應"},{"start":2087.27,"end":2112.728,"text":"主席、各位委員、先進、大家好。今天呢,大院財政委員會及內政委員會聯席審查我們大院賴委員、世保以及副會議委員等人分別擬具《地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案》兩個案子。那財政委員會傳要列席致感榮幸。警政委員提案說明如下,敬請指教。為了提高地方財政自主性,91年呢,我們制定地方稅法通則的時候就參考了各國地方稅立法的方式,"},{"start":2113.408,"end":2140.649,"text":"維持我國地方稅中央立法方式並賦予地方自主的彈性空間以符合地方制度法的規定所以在這個通則的第3條明定直轄市政府、縣市政府以及商鎮施工所可以開徵特別稅客、臨時稅客或者附加稅客等等薪稅並且分別在通則的第4條及第5條賦予直轄市政府及縣市政府除了印花稅、土地增值稅之外可以在地方稅源規定的稅率上限"},{"start":2141.109,"end":2167.452,"text":"在30%的範圍內來調高它的徵收率或徵收額另外除了關稅、貨物稅及加值型營業稅外在現有的國稅當中也可以在原規定的稅率的30%的範圍內附加徵收的權限依據上開的規定第三條的規定主要就是在規定地方政府制定地方稅自治條例提經議會完成立法程序開徵的特別稅客、臨時稅客以及附加稅客"},{"start":2168.212,"end":2196.188,"text":"這些都是地方自治立法權的範圍有關稅率的訂定也是地方的權責至於第四條第五條則是就中央立法的地方稅還有國稅所為的規範複以地方政府在一定的範圍內可以調整它的徵收率或者附加徵收有關賴委員等人提案是將第四條第一項的地方稅的範圍定名為中央立法的地方稅那複委員等人的提案是將同條項地方稅的範圍定名為中央立法所"},{"start":2196.408,"end":2196.628,"text":"謝謝理事長"},{"start":2228.045,"end":2246.113,"text":"每位委員發言6加2,列席委員4分鐘,即日上午10點截止發言登記。本次會議委員若有相關修正動議,請禁送主席臺收件而立於後續審查程序。請第一位發言林德福林委員質詢。"},{"start":2259.87,"end":2261.533,"text":"謝謝主席是不是請財政部理事長"},{"start":2268.84,"end":2294.583,"text":"市長早市長我請教因為竹記種族的家庭財務分配統計指出家庭財務的貧富差距從民國80年的16.8倍到110年已擴增到66.9倍那市長30年貧富差距擴大如果按照竹記長所說的未解決貧富差距讓政府"},{"start":2295.444,"end":2314.002,"text":"提升企業加薪那意願改善所得分配上政府的責任大那請問稅制改革推動這麼多年為什麼貧富差距不但沒有縮小的跡象反而變得越來越大這到底是稅改不利還是"},{"start":2315.023,"end":2337.032,"text":"根本就是沒有辦法從根本上去縮小貧富的差距。你的看法呢?是報告委員其實在這個改善我們這個人民的所得分配的這個效果上面呢我們財政部這幾年也是非常的努力在稅制上面做了非常多優化稅制的措施包含了我們在106年也就是107年時的實施所得稅制優化方案"},{"start":2338.652,"end":2359.238,"text":"這個優化方案將我們這個個人申報綜合索稅的4項扣除了大幅度的調高那另外我們也在108年有增訂了這個長期照顧特別扣除那在去年度也在財委會各位的這個支持之下我們修正了我們的幼兒學錢特別扣除還有就是租金"},{"start":2360.058,"end":2388.38,"text":"之初的扣除而把他從列舉扣除而移轉到改定為這個特別扣除而其實這幾項的修法都是站在這個改善民眾這個基本生活的立場上面希望能夠對於這些中低所得者或者是說有家庭能夠改善他們的所得狀況事實上是剛剛好相反那你認為會不會是因為資本主義下貧富差距變大根本就是不可逆就是一定會這樣子"},{"start":2390.168,"end":2417.429,"text":"你的認為呢?但是委員我們只能講說我們在稅制在財政部主管的稅制方面我們還是持續在做相關的調整但是喔 繼續一直擴大這是事實啊擺在眼前啊市長30年來貧富差距擴大的感受在座各位如果30年前出生這個社會甚至還是念大學的本席相信大多數的人都非常非常的有感不論是當時社會新鮮人的薪資"},{"start":2418.49,"end":2445.986,"text":"又或者是大學時代的房租、學位相信30年來的物價變化都會讓大家心有戚戚焉致長,面對現在大多數民眾的所得多半只有夠生活必要的開銷呼喚房租、水電以及倉位後所剩無幾財政部幫得了這些人什麼忙?你認為有沒有辦法?"},{"start":2447.028,"end":2470.934,"text":"我們就是持續做稅制的改善,希望能夠透過稅制的改革,能夠增加一些政府的收入,然後利用這些收入給予這些相關的像行政院組織總處或者是說相關的部會藉由這個移轉性的支出來改善我們這些有必須需要輔助的人民的生活。但是事實上他是剛好"},{"start":2472.284,"end":2492.123,"text":"倒著走啊,它越擴越大,貧富差距啊那你認為是不是這些所剩無幾的這些人啊是不是借錢來投資零股啊期待賺的機會財還是借錢買台股操作當沖可以當沖降稅的誘因來花點風險財又或者是這個"},{"start":2498.465,"end":2519.92,"text":"小小的去買一些公益彩券抱著大概有一天能夠中大獎這樣的一個美夢市長除了這些有如白日夢的幻想財政部有沒有想過在稅制上能夠更務實去解決實際上貧富差距的辦法到底是什麼你認為有沒有辦法改善"},{"start":2521.061,"end":2536.501,"text":"所以其實委員這個部分當然我們不希望就是民眾因為這個為了投機獲利然後去股市然後做什麼幫充交易這個其實對他們來講也許反而會造成更大的損失所以我們現在是希望就是說"},{"start":2537.302,"end":2556.172,"text":"我們也配合經濟部來實施所謂的鼓勵企業加薪減稅就是中小企業加薪減稅希望讓企業能夠將他的獲利能夠分享或者是回饋給他的員工然後來增加員工的薪資讓他的所得能力增加那這樣子可能是比較正確的做法"},{"start":2557.619,"end":2584.487,"text":"市長謝謝上個禮拜朱哲銘、朱祖記長說財富最低的20%家庭金融負債30年來增加16倍可能是因為財富槓桿操作太嚴重導致負債顯著的增加因謹慎理財那本席認同這個理財要謹慎這樣的一個必要性只是把財富最低的20%家庭"},{"start":2586.187,"end":2602.354,"text":"的原因歸咎於理財謹慎程度不夠本席認為恐怕政府難救其辭因為30年來政府為了和國際接軌金融政策的開放性、安全性陸續讓專業金融和"},{"start":2606.317,"end":2630.383,"text":"知識缺乏的民眾有了更多掉入陷阱的機會例如早期推銷信用卡、現金卡結果成就了許多卡奴這十多年前的新型金融商品的連動債造就了許多金融消費的苦主近年來更是為了推動科技金融致激"},{"start":2632.684,"end":2658.997,"text":"在無法有效嚇阻這些金融詐騙的環境下讓民眾真的講人心惶惶那我請問次長從剛剛提到的這些金融政策這個歷程去看貧富差距的形成你認為是有錢人轉變為貧窮人容易還是一個由壽星民眾轉變成貧窮人比較有可能您的看法呢"},{"start":2661.125,"end":2677.45,"text":"當然就是看這個各個民眾他在這個理財的時候他所做的一些安排就是他對他所投資理財的工具是不是真正有充分的認識那我們現在其實財政部能夠配合的措施就是我們希望能夠透過一些就是加強的宣導還有加強對這個金融商品的讓民眾認識金融商品"},{"start":2682.652,"end":2688.914,"text":"例如透過配合金管會訂定的什麼金融機構洗錢防治辦法還有就是異常帳戶的管理我們來保護我們這些銀行民眾在銀行的金融機構的資產希望他們不會因為這樣做了錯誤的判斷或者是說被不小心被詐騙然後造成他們的損失"},{"start":2705.919,"end":2715.511,"text":"你認為有錢能和一般壽星的民眾獲取金錢所承受的風險到底是誰比較大?你的看法?市長,因為我認為我感受很深就是在11月還沒有"},{"start":2724.002,"end":2724.142,"text":"議員賴士葆"},{"start":2744.474,"end":2764.289,"text":"那你要是新北市甚至於你現在達到90、180、80幾乎啊比比皆是啦阿你說現在年輕人要買一個房子談何容易阿對不對要幾千萬的房子他要努力多少年而且齁他一個月才領到多少薪水所以說我認為齁這個"},{"start":2766.874,"end":2786.076,"text":"很多的問題啦,因為我時間到了,不然的話講實在話,很多要存第一桶金都難上加難那你說要他生活又要租房子,那這個真的是我認為很多稅改的部分真的要好好的探討"},{"start":2786.917,"end":2786.937,"text":"市長"},{"start":2812.605,"end":2835.792,"text":"我最後提一個因為憲法第7條落實於稅法上就是租稅平等原則區分水平平等與垂直平等兩種水平平等是指同樣經濟幾戶人力者應互擔相同的稅捐垂直平等則有不同之戶人力者應互擔不同的稅捐戶人應多繳稅窮人應該要少繳稅"},{"start":2838.853,"end":2839.914,"text":"主席麻煩請財政部理事長請理事長"},{"start":2869.785,"end":2891.438,"text":"市長早現在5月是報稅季那今年有不少的新制度實施啦包括成年的年紀現在18歲從20歲下降再來另外一個就比較大家比較陌生的就是CFC受控外國企業受我們台灣人控制的外國企業這個繳稅的問題那"},{"start":2895.331,"end":2912.329,"text":"你這個CFC受供外國企業的這個繳稅啊財政部在這個繳稅之前因為這已經預告今年開始要課了嘛從去年1月1號14 今年要課之前有沒有宣導啊這些這些CFC的這個UO9知不知道"},{"start":2912.87,"end":2931.636,"text":"今年他們得要這樣子繳稅呢?有,其實我們從那個報競行政院合定在前年報競行政院合定說從112年度開始就要實施這個受控企業外國公司法開始那個所得稅即開始呢我們就包含我們複稅署還有各地去國稅局就一直持續地在做宣導"},{"start":2932.396,"end":2945.104,"text":"宣傳方式包括發布新聞稿、做相關的說明,但是最重要的是我們跟所有的會計師公會、記賬師公會、還有這些報稅代言公會,逐一的去做公會詳細的說明。那如果企業這方面他們有需求希望我們能夠對他們一對一的輔導的話,我們各地區國稅局也都是派員親自去做相關的輔導。"},{"start":2957.052,"end":2973.483,"text":"請問這個新的制度會影響到多少人?然後你估計這個可以課到多少稅收?目前我們是預估從上市櫃公司的統計資料來看的話大概會有七成左右的企業也就是將近1245家"},{"start":2977.425,"end":2989.788,"text":"包括上市櫃企業因為他們可能因為都有對外投資的行為那這些企業可能會受到我們CFC稅制的影響那有關稅收的統計因為近幾年我們其實沒有實際上的統計但是我們在103年當時有委託過學者研究大概估計是每年平均大概有盈餘國外的盈餘大概有1295億元那可能影響的稅收大概是55億元"},{"start":3006.533,"end":3020.251,"text":"但是因為這幾年其實是因為因為我們有很多除了這個CLC它不是你所有的每一塊盈餘都要課稅它基本上還有一些豁免條款比如說你雖然是在低稅負地區投資但是呢你如果在低稅負地區有實質的營運活動"},{"start":3022.193,"end":3045.623,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":3046.243,"end":3070.096,"text":"如果是這樣的話,今年預估因為112年度的盈利事業所得稅是收到9000多億然後個人的綜合所得稅的部分是收到5000多億所以去年啊,持收數比預估數比那個預算數多很多原因主要是這些都有蠻大的這個gap啦那你今年你認為呢?"},{"start":3071.574,"end":3097.675,"text":"您估計今年會不會也會這樣子呢?因為我們今年在預計我們的預算數的時候包含我們的營所稅、中所稅還有各個稅務其實我們都已經有採用比較新的估測方式而且參考了就是這些上市櫃公司它實際上的獲利狀況還有營運的狀況那因此我們預估就是在營所稅的方面到目前為止我們是覺得跟我們的估測數應該是差不多的"},{"start":3098.055,"end":3108.147,"text":"因為去年,我們去年,今年的預算數,營所稅是估9千多億嗎?營所稅"},{"start":3112.435,"end":3129.963,"text":"因所稅是估9千多億對那但是因為我們已經是核實估列所以我們是覺得今年的稅收應該會最後時針的數字應該跟我們的預算數估的差不多那今年唯一比較我覺得我們今年唯一比較沒有把握的是政交稅不是啦"},{"start":3131.055,"end":3156.282,"text":"光是你所說我就可以跟你打賭啦因為我跟你說齁我們財政部的同仁喔他們其實並不是惡意啦但是他們都做比較保守的估計喔那這樣子達成率都可以超過百分之百不會不會其實我們從去年開始因為這兩年我們稅收多於預算時增數大於預算數的狀況確實是比較我用一個比較參考的數字給你聽啦齁我們台灣的GDP"},{"start":3157.679,"end":3174.398,"text":"就算是去年成長比較少也有一點多趴那今年估計要3點多趴也就是說台灣這幾年從來沒有麻辣死的就是在原來的基礎上一直都在疊加上去所以我個人認為喔你們的估算"},{"start":3175.68,"end":3188.712,"text":"可能還是偏保守各位報告其實我們也看了今年最後那個就是政交所最公佈他們那個上市位公司今年財報跟前年的獲利確實是減損了25.63%所以我們覺得我們去年已經有參考他們可能發生的實際獲利的狀況基本上我們是覺得銀索稅的估算應該是趨於何時"},{"start":3200.583,"end":3215.157,"text":"但是在證交稅方面可能我們就比較沒有把握為什麼因為證交稅我們去年是估3000我們在估預算的時候是估3500億的以成交總數成交額是包括這個OTC還有包括這個證交所這兩個"},{"start":3218.72,"end":3246.599,"text":"但是今年上市商業公司從1到4月到目前為止他每月的成交局都已經超過了5000億所以我們覺得政交稅這部分可能是我們在顧測方面可能會有點失準的我跟你說以我的觀念國家依法收稅能夠有多收代表財政健全然後可以做更多福國利民的事包括各方面的開支因為財政是肅政之母這當然是好事不是在苛求你們我們只是要求說如果你們能夠"},{"start":3247.64,"end":3272.87,"text":"更精準一點的話這是希望你們擺死桿頭更進一步你越精準越不讓外界有要見縫插針的機會常有人在那邊拿錯誤的這個定義跟錯誤的名詞在這裡面給你做文章啊讓你搞得你焦頭爛額讓整個社會更加的紛亂我是認為齁其實一個國家的合理稅收如果你們的估計"},{"start":3274.52,"end":3274.7,"text":"委員賴士葆"},{"start":3298.268,"end":3299.329,"text":"因為今年的7月開始就要編114年的預算了嘛"},{"start":3324.404,"end":3346.589,"text":"一百一十五年的預算一億四一億四估一億四的是稅收的對好那因為幸好你繼續當次長對不對那我也繼續在這邊啦我們今天那個對話到半年多之後就可以驗證了就知道到底有沒有像你講的這樣啦如果能夠像你講的這樣當然是很好啦那如果還是繼續超過很多的話就代表你們在估計的時候"},{"start":3347.529,"end":3348.11,"text":"下一位質詢請賴士寶賴委員"},{"start":3383.734,"end":3386.903,"text":"謝謝主席及各行政有請財政部的理事長請理事長"},{"start":3391.667,"end":3418.075,"text":"委員長你知道今天的提案財政部的具體是你們是沒有意見還是支持我們尊重委員會的那個審查的結果你覺得我們提案合理吧因為它是跟我們原來地方稅法通則第4條的立法意旨是相符的是對嘛我們當初我記得那時候最早最早有一個立委叫廖學廣他提出一個政長稅"},{"start":3419.895,"end":3442.691,"text":"引起這個全國的軒然大波後來呢所以讓地方政府地方首長他能夠有這個這個手上有一點權力地方議會地方政府自己決定所以才有一個稅法通則這背景是這樣來的結果因為我們原來的法令就定了"},{"start":3443.686,"end":3454.546,"text":"就是等於好像是地方稅最多就是30%可是事實上有些稅目你們沒有想到的所以我的案子就是說"},{"start":3456.257,"end":3456.898,"text":"我們來看第二題"},{"start":3484.246,"end":3499.011,"text":"你剛才提啊,你剛才回答會員的這個對話,我就覺得連續兩年,請問你啊,去年的營所稅多少?去年的營所稅一兆多少?超過一兆!前年多少?"},{"start":3500.492,"end":3519.42,"text":"也超過一兆,啊當年都超過一兆,今年把它變個9千萬,啊你說今年的經濟成長率還要變成3%以上,比去年更好,所以今年的GDP比去年好,啊結果你們財政部是怎樣啦,因為補兌,講一個補兌是要縮起來,連續兩年都超過一兆,啊結果你們變,變成114,變9千億,9千萬,9千億"},{"start":3529.685,"end":3555.336,"text":"這個報告委員因為我們所得稅是落後徵收所以它如果是110像我們113年估測依據的經濟成長率是112年的經濟成長率所以只有百分之1.31而已而且從那個去年開始我們就發現產業確實是因為它的庫存很多它去化庫存很多我跟妳講虎保這絕對太糗了啦妳每次都低估我咧到時候妳回妳老公咧"},{"start":3556.55,"end":3576.988,"text":"委員我們願意盡量核實核實就要編一兆以上連續兩年都要一兆以上明明編的好啦不願意扯這個我要跟你扯來我跟你講這個統籌分配稅款現在統籌分配稅款你們訂了嘛今年編4千億一般補助款2300萬或者2500萬2500億對吧"},{"start":3582.996,"end":3594.229,"text":"所以加起來就是6500億,佔你們中央的25%,也就是四分之一給地方政府而已"},{"start":3595.525,"end":3618.993,"text":"我們現在大家都社會氛圍啊都說這個地方政府現在中央極權又極錢錢在你手上啊都看你臉色看你今天心情好就多給一點心情不好不少給一點我們法律把它調整一下這個財政措施法律法"},{"start":3619.949,"end":3646.51,"text":"好多委員十幾個版本都說要修!各縣市的選擇的立委大家立場可能不一樣我台北市選出來的我當然要看台北市啊我家裡是我從台中出來的我會關心台中市啊可是其他的委員這個台南的關心台南的這是水平分配垂直分配你先剝一塊肉出來吧"},{"start":3648.154,"end":3656.106,"text":"你很清楚啊,你們以前的長官李肅德任內他就撥了962億給地方政府還擺不平請問這一次來講的話你們可以割多少給地方政府"},{"start":3664.861,"end":3665.241,"text":"我提案啊!是"},{"start":3689.893,"end":3701.225,"text":"我的提案是3000億有人提案六千億啦我算了加10%就是兩千六百億加20%就是五千兩百億你覺得什麼爆放中間可以嗎"},{"start":3701.977,"end":3702.738,"text":"不過我以為這個部分"},{"start":3732.097,"end":3754.686,"text":"你那個講到稅評我講說中央你心目中可以括多少肉給地方政府委員這個我想因為這個涉及到整個地方政府財政的分配所以我們目前也很積極要求地方政府你不括下來地方就沒有啊每個地方政府都是要錢啊不管是藍執政綠執政都要錢啊"},{"start":3756.247,"end":3775.041,"text":"我已經第二次,第一次問部長有沒有答案第二次問你,你是財...照你講你也可以當部長的當那麼久了就次長你是財...你是稅的管稅的次長啊你總知道"},{"start":3776.493,"end":3777.354,"text":"我們尊重委員的提案啦"},{"start":3803.772,"end":3820.51,"text":"因為各個委員都有不同的版本,到時候可能要做充分的討論其他委員科技也都一千億,有的六千億,我是很科技的,三千億也科資的我們看到五月份現在開始報稅了,請問現在網路報稅比例多少?"},{"start":3824.017,"end":3836.467,"text":"手機報稅目前到今天,去年大概是百分之三成左右但是我們5月,從5月1日到今天5月5日為止大概佔服大概百分之五十左右"},{"start":3844.77,"end":3845.49,"text":"未來你的目標希望全部都可以手機報稅嗎?"},{"start":3876.699,"end":3886.622,"text":"目前我們今年最新的做法就是在我們的這個現象版還有就是手機版上面都可以看到一個所謂的查調資料的稅額估算表"},{"start":3887.102,"end":3887.802,"text":"你做了這麼多詐騙集團會不會來"},{"start":3904.108,"end":3904.688,"text":"提供提供提供"},{"start":3935.739,"end":3941.194,"text":"退稅我們是有分3批,第一批退稅在7月底"},{"start":3942.233,"end":3949.536,"text":"最後一個小問題請教你我們現在很多的網紅平台都是YT、FB、IG、Podcast都是國外的公司那它分論了網紅的分論了屬於境外所得還是境內所得"},{"start":3970.604,"end":3988.614,"text":"是。這個部分當然我們要看就是說,這要看他這個網紅這個平台的交易跟我們台灣的市場有沒有聯繫。他如果是跟國內的市場交易產生了獲利的話當然是中華民國來說的。"},{"start":3990.154,"end":3991.195,"text":"什麼意思?再具體一點。"},{"start":4005.371,"end":4021.728,"text":"那如果是境外的廣告那當然就不是我們台灣的來源所得那這個是境外所得如果是純粹是境外公司的話你查得到嗎?你現在看比如說我們的郭委員他開一個節目他網紅他全世界看到的不是只有台灣看嗎?"},{"start":4023.083,"end":4023.523,"text":"再次引請郭國文、郭昭瑋"},{"start":4060.909,"end":4085.711,"text":"主席有請李慶華次長李次長委員長安次長好次長我剛剛看你的回答颱風穩健而且相當專業但是我們現在面對一些問題能不能運用你的專業來達到這個真正的solution跟目標那其實我覺得今天討論到地方稅法通則免不了會牽扯到地方財政的問題"},{"start":4086.651,"end":4104.023,"text":"那牽涉到地方財政的話剛剛有好幾位委員我們在委員會當中也提了好幾次有關於這個整個財法法的修法的問題可是財法法的問題、修法的問題真的就如同你剛剛回覆了一般不應該只有考慮到垂直的分配而已應該要考慮到水平的分配"},{"start":4104.603,"end":4127.111,"text":"如果單單考慮到垂直的分配的情況底下,有些縣市目前自主的財源就已經高達90幾%了。如果這樣子的情況底下只會讓縣市之間水平的分配更加不平均,是不是?沒錯。如果是這樣子的話,就應該從垂直水平之外,而且不只單一財政收支劃分法,還有牽扯到什麼?公債法。"},{"start":4127.851,"end":4151.831,"text":"還有牽扯到什麼?地方稅法通則。我覺得這三個法當中財政部應該用一個比較通盤的角度來思考說地方的財政要怎麼去改善嘛,對不對?那如果拉回來這麼說的話,那我們今天討論的地方稅法通則從民國91年施行到現在,你覺得它對地方的財政的這個財政能力有所提升嗎?就結果來看。"},{"start":4152.692,"end":4152.752,"text":"新開徵22個稅金19個縣市"},{"start":4174.704,"end":4191.91,"text":"從施行到現在,但是就是有些縣市已經施行屆滿,它就已經停徵了。但如果說是整個到112年度為止的話,我們是總共對地方財源大概貢獻了180億元左右。總共才180億元,你覺得這個有助於解決這些地方財政的問題嗎?"},{"start":4193.27,"end":4199.854,"text":"基本上是有一些幫助的但是到目前為止就是剩下14個縣市還在課針對而且那個22個品項當中裡頭還有很多雷同的地方就是本期所累積的這個部分你的數字可能比較新那我現在算起來大概169億"},{"start":4220.384,"end":4221.205,"text":"所以這是到目前為止還在進行的。"},{"start":4240.967,"end":4268.755,"text":"不過因為我們地方稅法通則因為它的課徵它還是有受到一些限制對問題就是在這個限制當中當初是不是限制的過多導致這樣的結果就是說如果說我們要去談所謂的這個地方財政的這個能力問題的話就不應該只有做放在整個中央這個統籌分配的這個概念來進行嘛也應該賦予地方比較大的權利跟空間嘛不是嗎"},{"start":4269.755,"end":4292.032,"text":"可是我們要賦予地方的權力比較大的空間的情況底下你又在地方稅法通則給他匡列這麼多可是報告委員因為我們這個地方稅法通則開徵因為主要是熱線市在課徵我就直接請教你一件事情嘛就地方稅法通則來增加地方政府財政能力的情況底下還有沒有檢討修法的空間嗎因為大家都做方在這個財政收支發分法嘛"},{"start":4293.713,"end":4311.881,"text":"你有沒有思考過這個問題?已經通過了這麼久才收到這個180億其實主要是稅收比較少的原因也是因為他基本上就是剛才跟委員報告過因為他限制了某些事項不得開徵也許就限制過多本席就做這樣的提醒"},{"start":4312.581,"end":4332.083,"text":"如果說今天所有的委員不管你是在野黨或執政黨來說他這麼關心整個地方財政的問題的話那我們應該做不同的這個法案的列別當中來做一個比較通盤性的檢討嘛提出思考的可能性能不能提升他的地方政府的財政能力嘛而不是只是著眼在這個所謂的統籌分配或中央的垂直分配而已嘛不是嗎"},{"start":4332.703,"end":4351.339,"text":"我們現在其實也參考各個委員提案的建議其實我們現在也是對於我們目前中央立法的一些地方稅本期就是這樣建議你嗎?我們是不是可以從公債法、財法法還有地方稅法通則不同的法的面向來思考如何提升地方的財政能力嗎?"},{"start":4353.661,"end":4376.433,"text":"會通報來檢討稅法專家嗎?對不對?可不可以用來做這麼來做思考?目前的其他的地方稅制上面也會做一些檢討那如果好的話,那你大概是多久的時候要給本席一個答案嗎?一個月可不可以?因為目前就是我們現在涉及到地方稅的可能可以…沒有啦,你說大的方向啦!我不是說你時期的法案內容,不用那麼小心啦!這個委員可不可以給我們比較久一點的時間?兩個月可以嗎?"},{"start":4379.114,"end":4379.634,"text":"目前是沒有限制。"},{"start":4398.741,"end":4400.182,"text":"因為今天的修法其實它並不會增加地方的稅收它主要還是只是在做一個就是原來立法精神的明確化而已"},{"start":4422.176,"end":4449.149,"text":"其實是談到中央跟地方的分基問題倒不是增加稅收的問題倒是談到這個體制的問題單一體制還是聯邦體制的問題那基本上你如果認為沒有危險到單一體制的話那就OK嘛那再拉回來講喔上個禮拜我在經濟委員會的時候你有特別對經濟委員會的這一個加薪抵稅條款來進行背書啦就是認為他這個法案是正確的可是問題是稅差損也不過不到一億耶"},{"start":4450.169,"end":4466.595,"text":"市長,你這個倍數我就發現這個版本根本不是經濟部訂的,簡直是你財政部訂的嘛沒有啦,我們是配合經濟部訂的你有自我設限嗎?那你應該跟經濟部講啊怎麼只有才有150%而已,能不能提高,這能夠真的達到他的偵測目標嗎?本席真的強烈懷疑耶"},{"start":4470.438,"end":4480.065,"text":"因為其實為什麼我們中小企業發展條例這個減稅的措施實施以來基本上稅損都不是太大主要的原因當然也跟中小企業本身"},{"start":4485.61,"end":4508.59,"text":"因為我們中小企業很多他是獨自合夥的企業他根本不用繳稅嘛就是特質的問題你還提到說可能會有勞保的問題其他的社會保險的基礎的問題對因為我們這邊薪資提高以後他們也會增加相關的勞保的成本啊對你有提到你在媒體上有提到所以嘛你們如果說整體的政治目標你不是站在一個本位思考你說應該達到勞工交薪的效果你是不是要提韓國的一些例子來做直接的一個補助嘛"},{"start":4509.15,"end":4524.436,"text":"對不對?不是說你不是用稅的角度來做思考嗎?怎麼會這樣啊?對,有一些人也提到就是說因為租稅畢竟不是一個最...唯一的工具,唯一的工具對,是啊不然我這個真的老實講即便修了這一個條款啊我老實講啊"},{"start":4525.396,"end":4526.637,"text":"最後問一下部長"},{"start":4540.368,"end":4561.284,"text":"市長我有一個問題想問,抱歉,我剛剛回答有部長之風,我跟舊市長有一個問題,現在海外的資金的曝顯大家都很關心,但是問題是在整個資金有一個大挪移的現象,整個國營的這個曝顯的部分呢,它從原來的中國移到哪裡?移到美國,移到日本,移到東南亞,你們現在的狀況有沒有進行掌握?"},{"start":4562.143,"end":4589.38,"text":"有確實有掌握那有掌握的部分呢但是就本席所理解的有些曝險的狀況是投資的部分減少但是販款的部分的增加現在回答一下本席現在狀況趨勢是怎麼樣目前我們是看到之所以會有曝險當然一方面就是剛才委員講的投資的增加那另外一方面就是真正會產生問題的像我們很多都是連帶案就是給那些國外的一些融資中國現在到底國營裡頭還放了多少錢"},{"start":4591.741,"end":4609.061,"text":"中國目前還有多少錢?中國那邊啊?我沒有跟你講大陸,我是跟你講中國。我請國庫署查一下,看看我們現在那個負險的金還剩多少?對啊,要講一下嘛。然後你到日本跟美國的投資到底增加多少?"},{"start":4610.443,"end":4620.109,"text":"這個整個國營就是一個指標嗎還是委員我們可不可以就是會後再提供詳細的資料給你還有包括東南亞的部分還有東南亞的部分好 謝謝次長 謝謝謝謝委員好 謝謝好 下一位質詢請謝謝主席那個嚴委員在線我們請國庫署署長等等等等那個是賴會員賴委員"},{"start":4644.855,"end":4645.155,"text":"國庫署和護稅署"},{"start":4660.106,"end":4677.722,"text":"市長我們知道就是5月1日到5月31日是今年度的一個報稅的時間那我們希望就是透過免稅還是扣除了的一個優惠照顧更多的一個弱勢的民眾那事實上就是說在整體而言"},{"start":4678.763,"end":4693.232,"text":"我們的中手稅透過免稅扣除而平衡的一個真實生活的一個狀況那是不是請署長講今年就是我們所有的免稅額除了這個有哪幾種呢?"},{"start":4695.123,"end":4711.639,"text":"我們在我們綜合手續稅制之下常規的稅制第一個就免稅剛才會有特別提到另外最主要就是有兩項扣除為是標準跟列舉擇一適用那我們標準扣除的金額這幾年都有隨著物價指數調整而調整"},{"start":4713.861,"end":4737.868,"text":"另外在107年實施所的稅制優化的時候又有大補條另外就特別扣除的部分特別扣除就是基於政策的需要目前二百屆最關注的就包含長照特別扣除還有我們所謂生性障礙特別扣除及幼兒學前特別扣除還有今年剛通過會從113年度實施的租金支出改列特別扣除的部分"},{"start":4738.288,"end":4763.639,"text":"那這些其實都可以針對我們一般的民眾的需要,還有我們所謂的弱勢民眾。如果弱勢民眾,例如我們剛才講殘障啊,或是幼兒學錢,或是我們剛才講的所謂的長照,都可以反映他們實際上的情形。那我在這裡特別請教你就是說,在這一度今年的報稅的各項的減免稅額跟去年有多少的一個差距?"},{"start":4764.239,"end":4769.368,"text":"那這些差距有沒有造成我們國家的稅收額度的減少呢?"},{"start":4770.633,"end":4795.426,"text":"目前我們長照的話還是維持原來的12萬那另外另外像我們講的是對不起是這個嗎長照是維持我們還是12萬嗎幼兒學年特別扣除在會從113年度大幅調整會從12萬大幅調整到第一胎是15萬第二胎是22.5萬那這個我們都已經"},{"start":4798.988,"end":4810.1,"text":"律法修正通過了,這也是在委員的支持之下通過的。律法修正通過了,這也是在委員的支持之下通過的。律法修正通過了,這也是在委員的支持之下通過的。律法修正通過了,這也是在委員的支持之下通過的。"},{"start":4820.131,"end":4838.303,"text":"月額選前特別扣除我們用的方式是定期評估的方式那像我們講的長照是108年後來我們去評估以後增訂的那一次就訂到12萬那我們講月額選前特別扣除啊像今年通過的也都是用定期評估它調整幅度會比較大像這種定期評估的調整幅度會比較大"},{"start":4841.725,"end":4867.735,"text":"這種局劇是滾動式的一個評估方式事實上其實我們覺得就是在現實的生活裡頭你說一個長照你把它抵減12萬你應該有聽到很多就是不滿的聲音那還有寫成扣除額的一個那個就是備用調整的一個規定其實大家還是稍嫌不足那就是我們還是朝著一個等距不斷的在做調整嗎"},{"start":4868.875,"end":4897.964,"text":"我們都會滾動檢討,除了稅制都是如此,我們都會往這個方向去努力。好,那在這裡我還要再跟這個署長做一個討論,因為我們知道就是說在6歲以下我們有一個學錢扣除額,然後在就是大學以上我們有一個教學那個教育經費的一個扣除額,可是相對的就是說在這個6歲跟大學中間這個國高中這一段顯然我們是"},{"start":4898.584,"end":4916.569,"text":"沒有了這個是一個真空區那我們如何協助家長我們有沒有做這樣的一個準備呢報告委員因為政府在做這些相關政策的時候其實不外乎兩項主要的政策工具一個就是支出另外一個就是租稅那委員詮詢的是有關租稅的部分"},{"start":4917.069,"end":4917.95,"text":"是義務教育,那他們上不上才藝?他們需不需要到安親班呢?"},{"start":4935.66,"end":4958.805,"text":"不過委員這個是看個別家庭狀況所以我們稅是基本上照顧一般民眾的需求可是我們現有的實際的一個狀況裡頭有很多家庭是雙薪的有很多家庭是隔代教養的其實他們很需要就是安心的一個利用所以我們針對弱勢少子化可以不可以有更多的免稅額這是我要跟就是署長做一個討論的"},{"start":4960.145,"end":4967.21,"text":"如果就是說現行的那個不養免稅額一個人是每年才9萬2的話那幾乎就是"},{"start":4968.752,"end":4987.985,"text":"每個月是7667,其實不夠養一個小孩子那如果我們要再考慮到子女的教育經費那這個就是我再重提一次單親隔代教養的這些家庭是不是可以增加其他的免稅額度這個其實是我希望你們去討論的然後去檢討的好,我們會再滾動檢討"},{"start":4992.929,"end":4993.869,"text":"國產署署長"},{"start":5018.855,"end":5043.169,"text":"委員長,我想跟你討論就是沒有人繼承了財產的一個活化的一個可利用性因為我們知道就是說沒有人繼承了這個不動產的拍賣如果進到國庫以後我們會用到哪裡就是沒有人聲明繼承的其實我們都知道說經過15年了以後我們這個地方機關列管經過15年然後就是停止列管的一個拍賣"},{"start":5043.949,"end":5069.843,"text":"然後在最後他會進到國庫那如果沒有拍手成功的這些不動產可是這些不動產還堪用的你們怎麼用呢跟委員報告那我想剛剛委員的這個資料是很清楚就是說先代管15年15年我們就期滿就會做相關的拍賣那拍賣的所得會放到內政部一個專款"},{"start":5070.683,"end":5092.077,"text":"然後10年內原來有繼承的這些資格的人他還是可以把他因扣掉必要的稅負跟作業費用以後他是可以領回的那在還沒有完成5次拍賣之前這個財產都還算是私人的所以政府為了尊重私人財產的產權的部分要經過幾次的拍賣要經過5次"},{"start":5094.699,"end":5108.328,"text":"五次的拍賣一般來講的話因為這個涉及到人民的權利因為無緣繼承財產它的原因有非常的多包括有些是兄弟姊妹之間對於繼承的問題的訴訟或糾紛甚至有一些繼承人不明"},{"start":5115.173,"end":5143.156,"text":"我當然知道這個5次的拍賣是非常謹慎的那我們也知道就是說這個不謹慎不行會延伸很多後續的救援那我再跟這個署長特別提到的就是一個我們社會住宅社會住宅這個公共建設其實它的一個經費受到了一個限制所以它的整個進度也會變慢就以我們台南就是社會住宅"},{"start":5143.636,"end":5164.035,"text":"其實預計是7000戶到目前新建中才3153戶那待開工的還有4856戶其實真正住進去的完工的才202戶那為什麼呢?就是沒有錢所以有沒有機會就是說在這個沒有人聲明繼承的這一些財產裡頭就是經過了5次的一個拍賣然後"},{"start":5168.499,"end":5185.787,"text":"我們可以把它用在就是等於是國庫裡頭我們可以把它提出來提出來就是說納入社會的一個基金還是保障弱勢那有沒有機會就是公共建設的一個活用的一個利用呢有沒有你們有沒有思考過這樣的一個問題"},{"start":5186.827,"end":5211.668,"text":"報告委員因為剛剛講了這個經過保管10年以後進入到國庫那就是納到我們的國庫的收入就是一般的這些跟著國家預算的支出那涉宅所需要的經費目前國有土地的提供都是原則上是涉宅是一部分那如果我們也把它納進來就是我們的健保醫療那個這一個那個必須要修法"},{"start":5212.088,"end":5214.811,"text":"國產署來承辦無人繼承財產及未辦理繼承財產的部分是受內政部之托,所以真正的法令是在內政部。金額不多。"},{"start":5234.77,"end":5250.964,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":5251.284,"end":5251.805,"text":"委員賴士葆等"},{"start":5268.228,"end":5289.424,"text":"就學需要增加就是學年客戶儲額的一個可行性,評估沒有人繼承財產收歸到國庫,專做健保基金的一個社會福利的一個可行性,那也評估這個飆售的程序是不是可以更有效率創新的一個方式,那希望在一個業內提出書面報告。謝謝主席,謝謝兩位主席。好,謝謝委員,謝謝。好,謝謝,資料在後補。接著請嚴寬恒,嚴委員質詢。"},{"start":5305.816,"end":5307.359,"text":"財政部理事長財政部理事長"},{"start":5321.53,"end":5349.329,"text":"請教次長今天要審查的是地方稅法通則第四條我國地方稅法可分為兩大類一類是屬於中央立法者另一類是地方自主制定者那地方的財源都仰賴中央統籌付費款中央補助款及中央補助款那目前六都六都自籌的財源大約佔了五成那其他縣市就更辛苦了自籌財源僅佔大概三成"},{"start":5350.47,"end":5357.137,"text":"中央政府經常鼓勵地方要自首裁員。原條文規範的地方稅應由中央規定稅率,因此與地方自治權益定定無相關。"},{"start":5368.47,"end":5390.13,"text":"所以為了避免意識不明引起的爭議及誤會所以提案委員把文字做了一些修正更清楚表達法條想要表達的意思本席認為地方稅制應該回歸給地方自治那除了需要中方制定的稅者之外讓地方自己有空間來做處理對於這部分的修正請教次長您的態度"},{"start":5391.296,"end":5391.597,"text":"財政部支援"},{"start":5412.356,"end":5440.567,"text":"那接下來就是世界地球日10月22號大家最關切的議題當然是有關於這個碳費的徵收還有淨零排碳這個淨零排碳是世界趨勢那各國利用碳權、碳稅還有碳交易的手段來這個達成減少二氧化碳排放的目標那碳費是2023年1月10日山土通過"},{"start":5444.444,"end":5465.379,"text":"氣候變遷因應法,將2050淨零排炭目標入法設立的機制。碳費、碳稅、碳教育都不同。在台灣,計算7月排放量之後,碳費會繳給環境部,用於減碳措施、能源轉型等公共建設用途。"},{"start":5465.839,"end":5484.359,"text":"那碳稅是由各國稅務機關來徵收作為國庫的收入那本席的選區有許多的工廠這些廠商都非常的關切碳稅及碳費的相關議題請教次長關於碳稅的部分我們財政部是不是在5月領事後就會開始課證"},{"start":5486.628,"end":5499.216,"text":"報告委員,基本上我們是目前就是氣候變遷因應法目前我們是以推動碳費先行的方式來處理那有關碳稅的課徵呢,原則上我們將來應該要試碳費施行的情形再來評估它推動是不是要課徵碳稅的實現"},{"start":5506.821,"end":5507.562,"text":"另外一個更重要因為這個"},{"start":5529.732,"end":5551.307,"text":"臺灣的一個碳費的制度引發業界可能被同時收取碳費還有貨物稅的一個雙重課稅。那所以希望財政部可以重新,現在產業都在希望說財政部可以重新來新設能源稅,取代貨物稅,讓相關的稅率明確化可不可以?"},{"start":5552.014,"end":5577.566,"text":"目前我們的規劃方向就是可能將來就是如果在課徵假設這個研究案最後建議我們能夠推動這個碳稅的話我們會並同檢討這個貨物稅的課稅項目會是的,因為我們有很多的部分像現在在課徵的貨物稅當中就有油氣、汽車這些能源的部分所以它已經具備了環境稅的性質那你現在在課徵這個碳稅那就變成1.5百億這樣賠"},{"start":5580.868,"end":5581.209,"text":"因為時間有限,我就"},{"start":5596.568,"end":5615.001,"text":"有關產業創新條例,那108年制定的這個產業創新條例第10條之一,針對這個構置智慧機械5G通訊系統的全新硬體軟體技術還有技術服務等,提供企業投資這個抵減租稅,那在抵減租稅的部分,"},{"start":5618.884,"end":5639.266,"text":"全國工種主張抵減稅率應該提高到15%財政部主張是5%經濟部則是取中間值10%我想請教次長這一部分有沒有共識做了多少次的研討、討論跟企業還有工會之間有沒有做更進一步的協調"},{"start":5640.968,"end":5641.508,"text":"經濟部會聽取各界意見後整理一個方案"},{"start":5659.835,"end":5668.462,"text":"為什麼財政部會主張是5%?目前還沒有跟我們進一步討論財政部就是要求比較嚴苛的對產業要求比較嚴苛我們原則上就是維持現行產創條例10條之一的稅率目前就是還沒有進行進一步的討論就是說鼓勵企業投資這些智慧機械5G通訊相關技術還有這個科技的創新等等"},{"start":5686.921,"end":5707.273,"text":"這是一個相當好的政策啦所以我們財政部這邊應該要大力支持所以我希望各部會溝通完成之後盡速把這些法案趕快送到立法院來審查所以我們會跟經濟部等經濟部那邊能夠趕在年底以前就是說讓這些原始這個原租稅的優惠到期之前我們會有經濟部來訂定修法時程"},{"start":5713.036,"end":5736.042,"text":"最後一項是財政收支劃分法已經講了二十幾年了都在原地踏步財政部目前喊出的六大修法原則都僅僅是停滯在空範的口號欠缺實際計算的公式還有具體的做法請教次長上述的就是這六點你要補充的部分嗎?精確的補充好不好?"},{"start":5736.844,"end":5761.519,"text":"基本上其實我們還是依照目前這個處理的六大原則在做相關的研議方向啦那也在徵詢我們各地方政府的意見那我想因為目前各地方政府的意見還相當的分歧所以我們財政部在近期會召集地方政府來做一個意見的溝通那等到相關的意見能夠如果有整合的話也許我們就會提出相關財務法的修正方向更具體的修正方向"},{"start":5763.776,"end":5767.398,"text":"財政部應該是最穩定的應該要開始著手規劃把這些財政措施劃分法更具體的來做一個設計以台中市為例"},{"start":5790.314,"end":5813.965,"text":"台中市113年總稅出1775億比112年稅出減少了200億,超過200億因為112年台中市的稅出只有1504億台中市市政府以更合適的方式編列這些預算而且台中市的財政升級從3級升到2級"},{"start":5816.966,"end":5827.737,"text":"但是他並沒有因為這樣得到什麼樣的一個中央政府的一個鼓勵或者是一個加獎反倒是因為這樣對於台中市的各項補助都減少"},{"start":5828.956,"end":5829.376,"text":"臺中市為例"},{"start":5855.168,"end":5882.374,"text":"希望財政部做好準備因為財源的分配影響各地還有很多公共建設那不管是台中市也好其他六都的其他城市還有其六都之外的城市都需要中央的經費統籌分配款、中央補助款、專案補助款等等這些東西所以次長我們請財政部一定要加緊動員把這件事情做好好不好好謝謝委員我們會來積極來處理這個事情謝謝委員"},{"start":5890.427,"end":5903.559,"text":"下一質詢請 劉許廷 劉委員好 謝謝主席齁財政部次長有請請理事長"},{"start":5907.469,"end":5926.685,"text":"委員早安市長早安今天分幾件事情跟你做一下討論第一個是我們今天的地方稅法通則第四條條文修正案那我想剛剛在跟很多委員答詢的過程中應該也蠻清楚的這個讓在法條的文字上做修正讓他的定義更清楚這個行政機關應該不會有什麼意見吧"},{"start":5927.256,"end":5943.972,"text":"因為這次的修法其實跟我們地方稅法通則當時立法的原意是相符的對精神是完全一致的嘛對不對所以對於今日審查法案本期競表支持啦要完善說明避免爭議希望就趕快修正來做通過啦但這個今天既然有大選的時間當然多討論幾個問題所以第二個問題是現在是五月也就是大家俗稱的報稅季"},{"start":5949.638,"end":5972.933,"text":"我們最近發現公務人員的離職跟退休的人數其實在這幾年基本上是一個居高不下的狀況相對來講人力的補充我們也收到很多地方特別是國稅局這邊尤其在報稅季的時候特別有感一年裡面最累的狀況就是這樣但是現在人力缺口的狀況甚至連報考的狀況都沒有額滿部長有沒有這樣的狀況"},{"start":5976.035,"end":5998.062,"text":"目前看起來公務員好像已經不是一個第一選擇的行列是啊那怎麼辦呢我現在擔心的就是這個嘛稅務人員的報考是沒有額滿的情況之下就招不滿是第一個問題第二個問題叫做流動性很高啊也就是說我基本上我就有一個最低在這裡只要這個服務滿一定的年資我可以調任的時候我立刻就申請調任了"},{"start":5999.182,"end":5999.362,"text":"財政部長"},{"start":6017.814,"end":6042.753,"text":"其實我們現在就是,我們也發現就是說我們稅務人員人力不足的問題,剛才有提到這個人力流動的問題當然所以我們現在希望就是在稅務的基準上面能夠更為的簡便當然這個當然就是涉及到我們自己本身在這個執行上面我們都用一些科技的方式或者一些比較就是數位的方式來提升我們的這個基準技術讓我們的人力負擔盡量的減輕"},{"start":6046.135,"end":6075.389,"text":"那這個部分是我們現在目前持續在努力的部分能夠減去他們的負擔這樣本期給你幾個建議啦比如說本期選區裡面的北區國稅局基本上可能就是你全國最血汗的單位之一啦那他們現在有想法就是說為了留住嘛他很多這個考上的是離鄉背井的嘛住中南部之類的但是分發在這個地方來做服務那他們就會考量他們居住的需求希望有這個新做這個員工宿舍啦減少他的舟車勞頓我想這都是體恤基層員工的正面的做法"},{"start":6076.109,"end":6104.54,"text":"當然就協調這個閒置的官社跟土地,國有財產署基本上也是你們處理的嘛,對不對?既然都同一個單位的,希望部裡面趕快協調啦,積極來回應這個基層的請求,好不好?國有財產署絕對會配合我們各地區國稅局的需求來提供這個相關的閒置房舍,讓國稅局來做評估是不是可以適宜作為職員宿舍的使用這當然就是各種手段並進啦,包含次長你剛剛講的嘛,這個就是使用科技的手段,精簡人力的需求"},{"start":6105.14,"end":6107.441,"text":"我們可以把我們對這方面的改進措施提供給委員參考"},{"start":6129.713,"end":6145.583,"text":"好,再來,既然都講到稅,那我們就講到今天第三個題目,其實也是今天我最關心的題目,當然就是財政收支劃分法嘛,對不對?這個,我剛剛特別查了一下,上一次有官方的版本件,大概是十幾年前的事情對,就是民國1995年的對,95年喔,超過接近20年了,對不對?"},{"start":6149.785,"end":6173.457,"text":"所以說財化法年久未修好像是個老問題了對不對那今天剛剛寬恒委員也講了嘛對不對就是說我們這一次財政部算是人員最穩定的部長也留任了次長兩位次長也都留任了對不對所以當然就延續性我們已經沒有什麼好再拖時間也沒有什麼好說等新政府上任了嘛請問我們現在政府現在對於這個願版的財化法什麼時候會生的出來還是從來沒打算有願版"},{"start":6175.39,"end":6178.032,"text":"我剛開頭的時候特別去講說上一次弄出來就是快20年前"},{"start":6205.066,"end":6219.726,"text":"這個凝聚共識的過程持續了10幾年也算是前所未見了嘛 對不對所以我希望可以聽到一個具體的時間表啦比如說我們立法院有8個會期對不對你預計在哪一個會期的時候會有一個明確的版本大家可以送進立法院來做討論對不對有沒有一些明確的時間表呢"},{"start":6222.396,"end":6250.587,"text":"這個部分目前大概沒有辦法告訴委員我們的明確時間表是什麼時候我們還需要一些時間阿是這樣子啦就我們在野黨當然會提出在野黨的版本嘛對不對那其實大方向大概也其實我們你們會找各縣市首長開會我們也會找各縣市首長開會嘛所以大體上方向其實也不會相差太遠啦所以就希望行政院這一段喔速度可以加快比如說總裁員的分配嘛按照現行的狀況大概是中央其實掌握七成左右地方大概有三成就已經投效了對不對"},{"start":6251.067,"end":6252.468,"text":"市長知不知道桃園每一年上繳多少稅收也重要?上繳"},{"start":6272.267,"end":6274.089,"text":"我看桃園財政局的資料2022年從桃園這樣他有他的計算標準是2337億"},{"start":6293.39,"end":6307.023,"text":"這幾年其實桃園貢獻的稅收絕對在全國算是名列前嘛市長應該不會反對我這樣說對不對他基本上一直在持續的精進而且持續的成長可是實際上我們桃園分配到的數量每次都是倒數的好像也不太公平對不對"},{"start":6308.673,"end":6324.526,"text":"對這個分配的問題當然也是財務法要解決的問題啦所以分配的部分第一方面我們當然希望說營業稅的層數可以往上拉第二個我希望財政部既然你們現在都還在這個廣泛意見爭取的過程我希望你們可以把工業產值這件事情納入考量"},{"start":6325.246,"end":6345.811,"text":"因為從工業產值來講為什麼我桃園你剛剛講了五千億或者是桃園財政局講了兩千多億其實都是因為我們是產業重鎮所以基本上工業產值大量來自於桃園工廠放在我們這個地方污染是我們這地方來承受交通壓力等等都市負載都是我們在承受可是在分配的時候只算這營業額的數量很多公司的總部登記不在桃園"},{"start":6346.291,"end":6375.437,"text":"那這個東西相對來講就影響了你的公司的設算跟分配那既然說財政收支劃分法要檢討這些內容啊我希望未來要把工業產值放進去這樣比較公平嘛 對不對因為我們相對來講城市負擔的這個負載的這個付出的成本是高的實際上也創造出了大量的產值要不然哪來這麼多錢呢 對不對所以說不管是講總裁員的比例調整營業額的營業稅的這個額度工業產值的納入考量這我都希望趕快有一個眉目嘛"},{"start":6375.797,"end":6395.709,"text":"那這些東西其實在黨內部已經做了討論我們很快都會有很多版本出來了那我們希望行政院趕快要有版本出來了好不好趕快盡快的來審查改善這個中央跟地方財政失衡的狀況也讓地方的地方政府有更多的空間可以來發揮來改善大家的生活品質好不好這部分請財政部跟這個好好加把勁啦謝謝謝謝委員謝謝好 謝謝下一位質詢"},{"start":6404.771,"end":6405.712,"text":"蘇巧惠蘇委員謝謝主席,我們請次長請理事長"},{"start":6419.737,"end":6446.269,"text":"市長我們今天要討論的是地方稅法通則尤其是在講到第四條那我想先請市長再簡單的表示一下因為從剛剛到現在其實每個委員都有不同的考慮的面向市長基於地方自治和財源自籌這樣的狀況其實我們放寬一點讓地方可以調整今天主要修法的方向是這樣那財政部的立場到底是同意還是不同意啊"},{"start":6447.092,"end":6461.81,"text":"因為這次兩個委員提案修正的版本他其實只是把第四條的所謂的地方稅的這個這個漲幅的部分嘛講清楚說是中央立法的地方稅對對對但是其實我們第四條本來他就"},{"start":6462.11,"end":6485.746,"text":"原來的意旨就是中央立法的地方稅所以這次修法其實它不涉及整個實質的變動它其實還是跟我們原來立法的意旨相符的所以它其實對文字明確化不但影響不會太大而且說實在的對這個後面的稅基等等項目其實都沒有做到調整所以這樣聽起來其實財政部的立場也是支持的就對了"},{"start":6486.246,"end":6487.506,"text":"第4條財政部的立場是如此的話那我也想跟您請教一下我們第6條的部分"},{"start":6516.074,"end":6537.961,"text":"第6條的部分其實在第二項的最後他其實有講了一個備查備查兩個字那次長我想請問依據地方制度法備查它的意義是怎麼樣定義是如何備查基本上當然就是地方稅已經議會通過的地方制度法律我就說備查兩個字是它只是就是讓我們知悉對"},{"start":6539.381,"end":6539.401,"text":"對,是"},{"start":6554.502,"end":6578.156,"text":"有不予被查的案件為什麼可以有不予被查?那不予被查的效力會是如何?基本上第一個因為我們地方稅法通則第三條它還是有規定說你要開徵的特別稅客或者臨時稅客或附加稅客有下列事項是不得開徵的"},{"start":6579.356,"end":6588.76,"text":"例如第一項你是轄區外的交易第二個流通至轄區外的天然資源或礦產品等等或者是它經營的範圍跨越了轄區的對就這幾條這幾項是不能開徵的項目那如果說有地方它已經地方制條例通過"},{"start":6598.104,"end":6613.575,"text":"是要針對這些不得開徵的項目來開徵這些稅客的話即使報到我們財政部來備查因為我們的備查程序除了財政部之外我們還要會同內政部還要會同行政院主席總署還有相關的監督機關比如說像礦石稅會有這個經濟部所以我們會有相關的機關一起來討論那如果它是一個違法課徵的行為我們就不以備查好"},{"start":6625.563,"end":6638.014,"text":"市長,你不覺得說到這裡有點矛盾嗎?被查只是知悉所以你用不予被查不就是等於是有審核的狀況了嗎?可是根據剛剛說的狀況來講的話如果我明明規定你地方就是不應該不能法律規定你不能開徵這些項目但是你偏偏又開徵了那難道我就眼睜睜的看著你繼續這樣違法下去嗎?這好像也不太對啊"},{"start":6651.986,"end":6678.096,"text":"所以這兩者都對但兩者合在一起又都不對的狀況下那第6條是不是我們也應該如同你現在在修第4條一樣讓它可以語意更清楚一點是原則上第6條當然因為它的用被查這兩個字其實跟我們現在地方制度法的規定有點不太相對因為我們是有實質審查的效果沒有錯啊雖然我們審查的是適當性而是法性但是還是有實質審查的效果"},{"start":6679.477,"end":6697.61,"text":"所以我們這個地方就是也應該做一些至少字義上面的調整文字上面的調整我剛剛就說了嘛基於地方自治財源自籌我們應該可以放寬可是國家有國家的制度應該遵守每個部會也都有應該大家應該要盡的責任要審查的部分要能夠清楚"},{"start":6697.99,"end":6712.326,"text":"好那如果中央地方大家都有權責又希望把事情弄清楚的話好做事那就是像今天一樣啦那你第4條這樣可以修正的話那你同不同意我們也可以來討論第6條這個文字是不是也把它修正讓大家更清楚更好做事嘛"},{"start":6712.927,"end":6732.175,"text":"如果說因為今天提案只有提修正第4條那當然如果說我們如果後續有要調整第6條我覺得財政部自己也可以討論啊因為如果從這個第6條今天你從第4條的文字那到現在我提出來的第6條的文字那甚至我們再進一步而言啦如果我們"},{"start":6732.995,"end":6749.725,"text":"今天你要採取的是實質審核了好那我覺得這是一種方向那麼配套著我們今天的地方稅法通則說來說去其實只有幾條一共才10條而已而且第10條還是本通則自公佈日實施其實是非常單純就只有9條非常簡單不是單純是簡單只有9條而已那"},{"start":6755.148,"end":6783.177,"text":"這樣的狀況下其實就應該要搭配上您剛剛說的第三條這樣的這麼大的空間裡面你要搭配實質審核實質審查才會比較有道理嘛好 如果你要繼續維持著這個被查的狀況那就只是知悉囉那如果是知悉的話那是不是應該在這樣的一個通則裡面它就它的項目甚至是稅率其實應該有更嚴謹的規定地方才知道哪一些是可以做哪一些是不可以做做了以後會有什麼效果啊"},{"start":6783.837,"end":6802.533,"text":"所以我覺得啦,老實說這個地方稅法通則是民國91年訂的今天都已經是幾年了我們是不是應該就這整部其實今天修第四條應該是一個起點我覺得其實整部都可以來討論應該要怎麼樣可以讓它更完善一點是比如說後面是實質審查中央有這樣的資格"},{"start":6806.136,"end":6828.864,"text":"還是是中央就是備查但前面把它定的完整一點讓地方覺得我還是照自己做但我知道規範更清楚一點我覺得這是可以討論的方向啦這是第一件事情好那如果再細究下去我認為還應該討論什麼呢你看看像第三條您剛剛要解釋的第三條裡面吶它的第一項第二款裡面有說流通至轄區外之天然資源或礦產品這個部分"},{"start":6831.536,"end":6858.773,"text":"市長,這個大概指的是什麼項目啊?就是譬如說水泥啊,或者是水資源啊。水資源嘛。對。好,那我今天就問你了,剛剛我們在講的這個第四條啊,其實有講到什麼礦產的開採行為等等,你說這些都可以。好,那如果是我新北市呢,我就淡水河流域,凡是經過這裡的,那我都要來,因為我要整治這個流域,所以我也來課這一個特別的地方稅,這樣可不可以?"},{"start":6859.233,"end":6876.271,"text":"報告委員,我們曾經有某個縣市政府,他們曾經想要對流通到他們轄區的天然資源,就是水資源來克稅。這個部分我們因為認定它就是違反這個不得克徵的項目。因為這樣就變成是此路是我開。"},{"start":6877.132,"end":6877.552,"text":"那所以啊"},{"start":6905.512,"end":6912.256,"text":"你就會讓人家產生覺得有大小新的感覺我同樣是維護環境啊為什麼我新北市就不行?對不對?"},{"start":6912.256,"end":6923.441,"text":"不行新北市不行是整個這樣 有這樣的狀況的都不行只是這個狀況剛剛好偏偏在新北市嘛其實不是主要是因為剛好那個天然資源它是流通的"},{"start":6924.582,"end":6949.309,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":6949.489,"end":6949.509,"text":"謝謝委員 謝謝"},{"start":6983.376,"end":6986.238,"text":"接著請李燕秀、李委員質詢謝謝教委,我請政事李政事請李次長"},{"start":7000.839,"end":7026.735,"text":"市長早安,你們是大概說部會裡面這個少數沒有交接問題的這個顯示出對於整個賴政府卓團對整個內閣來說對於你們過去的財政的穩健狀況對於三位從部長到兩位政策其實是肯定的但是對於另外一方面另外一個層面來看這個問題其實悲觀的來看呢對於未來"},{"start":7030.537,"end":7057.656,"text":"財政、財稅有沒有辦法大幅度的改革這就是我覺得接下來值得觀察的地方我今天因為只有8分鐘我不花太多時間我先第一個問題先請教政策雖然今天部長不在但是部長過去的態度我想知道接下來520之後會不會有太大的轉變前幾天我們現在的彭教授馬上520要上任的金管會的主委彭主委有跟金融工會"},{"start":7058.416,"end":7085.834,"text":"做了一個情誼之旅,裡面有提到接下來對於金融營業稅的改革的部分是不是有機會從現在的5%來做調降過去莊部長對於這件事情無論是現在的黃天牧黃主委他表態是支持的那我從媒體上新聞上查看到的就是說整個財政部對於這整件事情其實也是持開放"},{"start":7087.215,"end":7114.594,"text":"審慎的態度現在對於這件事情你們的態度到底是什麼我們還是一樣就是因為基本上金融業稅這件事情主要是因為今年年底的時候我們那個要提撥到這個特別準備金的這個2%的部分要修正了要借期了那借期以後到底金融業稅是不是要維持有關保險銀行業就是維持5%的稅率這部分就是目前業者們非常關切的議題"},{"start":7115.555,"end":7129.882,"text":"那這個部分金管會當然原來的黃天牧主委現任的黃天牧主委其實已經有具體的意見給我們財政部那你們財政部的意見到底是什麼對 那我們財政部目前是這樣基本上因為這個東西它涉及到的就是一個是國際租稅的課徵"},{"start":7132.103,"end":7132.564,"text":"所以你們也打算調整?"},{"start":7147.154,"end":7161.44,"text":"但是這個調整就是說要考慮的問題當然除了就是國際租稅的課徵方向之外呢我們還是要考量一下就是說整個國家這個整體這個金融的風險到底是不是還是有多少的衝擊需不需要做相關的調整或者是維持原來的這件事情調整了這麼久"},{"start":7168.523,"end":7188.678,"text":"沒關係,我覺得這件事情財政部討論了很久,既然你們這個團隊是無縫接軌,我希望這件事情你們可以有更具體對外的說法,因為既然彭主委看起來好像也支持過去黃庭木黃主委的想法跟做法,也接受到陳情,所以這件事情我希望有具體的答案出來競訴。"},{"start":7189.659,"end":7191.62,"text":"今天雖然部長不在,但是我相信你對於這些數字都應該非常熟悉"},{"start":7209.648,"end":7236.655,"text":"市長,我們今年的這個中央政府的債務未償餘額達到6兆3528億我們直接看數字因為我今天時間不多我們一年以上的債務是將近6兆一年以下將近3591億左右我覺得有一個數字非常奇怪我們直接看到那個表好不好來"},{"start":7238.215,"end":7240.056,"text":"我們去年齁2023年5月19號我們中央的債務未償餘額是達到6.3418億所以我們每一個國人平均我們負債中達到27.2萬但是市長你看到今年2024月30號"},{"start":7254.964,"end":7266.096,"text":"我們卻達到新高現在才4月還不到5月一般我們的債務我們的債務餘額最高都會是在5月份才到4月份我們就已經達到6兆3528億所以這邊我有幾個問題第一個問題是我們的國債怎麼會"},{"start":7273.865,"end":7274.045,"text":"但到4月30日"},{"start":7292.845,"end":7308.553,"text":"我們就已經多了300億這個才不到短短的兩三個禮拜就多了300億這個是我第一個問題第二個問題是為什麼我們債務餘額我們反而比較多但是你看我們平均債務負擔是27.1萬那我們去年是只有27.2萬這個問題點到底在哪裡是"},{"start":7318.138,"end":7322.141,"text":"我們是戶籍人數增加嗎?是疫情過戶籍人數增加,那我們每一個人的負債卻是減少,這個問題到底出現在哪裡?那為什麼我們4月19號的時候,我們才6兆3228億,我們的負債、我們債務的未償餘額,但是短短到4月30號,到兩個禮拜左右,我們就已經多了300億。"},{"start":7341.834,"end":7362.7,"text":"問題出現在哪裏?這個我跟委員報告一下,因為其實每一年國庫都是在第1、2季都是撥付各機關的日常支出那他會撥付我們中央政府軍工教育人員的年節的獎金還有地方政府的補助款還有健保的補助款還有就是相關年度出納事務整理期間的支出"},{"start":7363.16,"end":7374.224,"text":"那這段期間它的那個支出面會增加,所以那個大桌稅款還沒有入庫之前呢,我們也知道在5月之後,當我們所得算進來之後,我們就會去還款。我們就整個還,就會這個國債的狀況就會整個還款。那理事長我再請問一下,因為我們今年負債增加,那我們5月的國債中,我們還會持續破表嗎?"},{"start":7387.688,"end":7412.086,"text":"預估到5月底因為5月底通常會是最高的嘛那我們的國債中會持續破表嘛現在是27.1萬你預估應該是會往下調降嘛你預估會往下調降是還了之後是所得稅是因為所得稅收還有就是相關目前為止到那所得稅抵扣之前呢因為現在才4月30號因為還不到5月底我們國債中還會持續破表嗎"},{"start":7413.207,"end":7437.243,"text":"對,因為目前到4月的部分還有相關的稅收應該會持續的進賬有些扣繳的稅款也會增加所以我們預計是會緩降的啦應該會緩降下來因為它的趨勢其實每年都差不多那再次的我再問一個問題就是說我們今年收到眾所稅之後我們會立刻拿來還債嘛依照過去的慣例那你會拿多少出來還債"},{"start":7438.661,"end":7453.309,"text":"通常我們會按照那個稅收實收的狀況來做相關的規劃他不會馬上還債但是他可能就會看說還是我們只還一年以下譬如說我們一年以下的債務餘額是3591億只會還這個部分嗎目前已經編列的那個預算預該還債的金額我們這個當然會照他規定的規範的時程還有就是稅收入帳的時程我們會去強制還本那除了強制還本以後我們會看到還多還少可以有彈性啊"},{"start":7468.137,"end":7480.048,"text":"沒有,強制緩本原則上就是法定的,我們一定會...這是一年以下的一定要緩嗎?一年以上會多緩一點嗎?對,那如果我們稅收狀況不錯的話,我們...照理說我看起來,你講到稅收狀況我就要請問你因為我們今年時增金額是5576億元比同一期上去年的增加704億元,多了14%,將近15%左右"},{"start":7492.759,"end":7501.428,"text":"那財政部會預估說今年徵收的數字會不會有機會突破950億元甚至突破1000億元"},{"start":7502.677,"end":7504.199,"text":"目前我們預計銀索稅的稅收可能只會接近運算數,但是中索稅已經增加到704億,包含中索稅、證交稅、銀列稅"},{"start":7524.438,"end":7540.518,"text":"目前我們預估到現在為止,我們覺得我們的營業稅會增加,然後我們的高層稅可能也會增加因為今年一開始的時候莊部長來到我辦公室跟我講說我們今年應該這個超增稅收我們會好好的編列"},{"start":7542.821,"end":7543.121,"text":"所以你還是不敢講?"},{"start":7561.415,"end":7582.751,"text":"我現在第一期跟你講多了15%所以我要問你說你今年超徵稅收到底有多少?你們說今年會好好編列但第一期就增加將近15%所以次長我還是要提醒你因為你們這個團隊是所有部會裡面最無縫接軌的因為幾乎兩位次長都在部長也沒換人所以財政上財稅上面的大幅的改革"},{"start":7583.851,"end":7601.055,"text":"還有這個我覺得是外界期待看的到我們希望是在這個部分上好好的去處理國債中的部分還有今年到底明年到底要還多少錢我覺得因為我們國債、負債是越來越嚴重所以這個部分可能財政部要思考清楚好謝謝委員謝謝等一下再發言兩位到王鴻薇委員我們就休息10分鐘接下來請李崑辰李委員諮詢"},{"start":7618.513,"end":7622.216,"text":"財政部理事長財政部是難得包含部長跟次長還會繼續留在原崗位繼續奮鬥的單位所以很多政策應該可以繼續不管是延續下去或是說等一下回答的時候應該比較能夠"},{"start":7641.714,"end":7660.609,"text":"這一個具體的答案本席先請教一下次長這個113年就是今年到期的租稅減免至少有3個先請教一下次長其中一個是中小企業加薪減稅這個條例上禮拜在經濟委員會有做審查據我了解經濟委員會的委員認為誘因不夠"},{"start":7669.756,"end":7671.037,"text":"提高到180八兩百甚至兩百五都有"},{"start":7696.771,"end":7706.151,"text":"本席先請教一下,那到底你們有沒有算過就是說本來是130,現在150或是說再提高的話,那每個結局大概稅損是多少,你們有沒有算過啊?"},{"start":7707.353,"end":7731.288,"text":"這個公文報告我們有算過到目前院版的部分院版是150對但是如果要再提高的話目前是已經委員會有決議就是由經濟部他們再去按照不同的加成比例去計算他的稅收損失那稅收不是你們這邊也會知道嗎因為稅收損失我們的稅市支出評估報告一向都是由產業主管機關來做評估所以你們這邊也沒有數字比如說150到180到200"},{"start":7734.009,"end":7760.687,"text":"稅损会多少就不知道目前还由经纪部在精算那他们会仔细的去计算而且会提出那所以这150是你们提出来的版本还是经纪部我们跟经纪部一起在行政院讨论会同决定的结果好那130到150那稅损是多少呢大概是2亿左右那其实按照比例上去大概那个数字也差不多多少吧就是金额应该不是太大了对啊金额应该不是太大对啊金额不是太大嘛难怪这个"},{"start":7762.247,"end":7762.508,"text":"提案委員"},{"start":7780.294,"end":7780.334,"text":"主席"},{"start":7805.442,"end":7823.715,"text":"這個也是誘因之一啦,不然過去我看你們資料啟動的這個次數一次或是兩次啦,很少啦。那我也希望說這個如果大家不分草野都難得有這種構思的話,其實那個誘因其實要再增加的話,這個加成的應該是要比例再提高一點。"},{"start":7825.776,"end":7849.787,"text":"我想這個進入草野協商,那大概150以上是跑不掉啦,對不對?客人都是希望再提高啦,對對對對好,那第二個是齁,因為這個剛才是比較急,是到5月20號吧,5月19號是好,那這個政交稅當初減半,這是到年底,那金管會也有送出資料嘛,對不對?那這個財政部現在的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":7850.729,"end":7868.988,"text":"財政部基本上是當然因為證交稅這個當初降稅的措施它有它的歷史背景啦當然對因為當時真的在105年那時候我們的整個證券交易市場的成交值幾乎降到1000億以下那我先講說它的效果啦因為金管會也有提出它的效果"},{"start":7869.708,"end":7898.099,"text":"提出這個措施以後因為又延長了一次那現在我們的市場上的成交率已經將近每天都到五、六千億那是不是要繼續延長那是不是要維持原來當沖降稅的一些措施這部分我們還是會請金管會提供一些比較具體的數據還有具體的這個效益我看他數據都有提供給你們了不論是這個成交稅的這個增加或是說這個教練的成長都有啦"},{"start":7898.699,"end":7919.255,"text":"對,幹事委員因為他不能只看他的證交稅的稅收增加或者是說他的成交值的增加因為當初這樣稅有另外一個負面的評估是認為覺得他對我們這個租稅公平還有對這個投機市場造成整個捐贈市場投機的因素對,所以這我們要考量儘管會考量的部分財政部有財政部考量的部分那這個齁"},{"start":7921.877,"end":7949.178,"text":"我相信應該是最後要由新的院長來做決定啦因為這個是有點政策性的決定因為兩邊的資料我都看過那其實都有道理那對於這個財政部來講的話當然是不希望說第一個把他變成常態化那第二個就是說這個稅收也不希望再減這大概是你們的立場啦那所以說這個我是相信啦這個你們應該會跟這個金管會再跟新的院長再做報告因為這個是政策的決定"},{"start":7951.824,"end":7976.233,"text":"第三個,這是年底要到的,就是有關我們貨物稅的條例。貨物稅條例本來在低底盤公共汽車、天然氣公共汽車、油電混合動力公共汽車、電動公共汽車、身心障礙者、復康巴士都免徵貨物稅到年底。現在交通部有跟你們提到說,上述我提到的這些"},{"start":7976.946,"end":7984.221,"text":"不管是跟這個常災有關係的或是跟這個節能減碳有關係的那這些貨物稅的免徵"},{"start":7985.407,"end":8002.972,"text":"因為是到年底結束嘛有沒有機會再延長這部分我們已經有請交通部表示意見因為他是有我們這些大巴士的主管機關還有衛福部我們也有請他們表示意見基本上交通部目前的考量是認為說公共汽車目前已經逐漸電動化了而且我們那個業者去購買這個電動的公共汽車本來就可以依照我們貨物稅條例12條之6他就有電動車減徵或免徵貨物稅的措施"},{"start":8014.935,"end":8038.794,"text":"所以目前交通部是比較傾向說不延長這些大型電動公共汽車的減稅措施還有它的實施年限但是呢有關復康巴士還有就是載運輪椅使用的這些車輛的部分呢衛福部跟交通部都希望我們就繼續延長它的免稅所以我剛才講的是就是只有身心障礙者的復康巴士免徵貨物稅那其他的"},{"start":8041.656,"end":8065.103,"text":"因為那個他現行就可以用我們那個電動車免稅的相關優惠那可是這個同性質的貨物稅條例12之3條啊那個電動車那為什麼電動車就可以延長就是延長4年為什麼因為那個他的電動車範圍是不限於那個大型的公共巴士他是所有的包含電動機車電動小客車是啊我聽你說說因為他為什麼要延長這個電動車減免貨物稅"},{"start":8067.244,"end":8082.978,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":8083.118,"end":8083.759,"text":"主要是電動公共汽車"},{"start":8099.437,"end":8120.288,"text":"就是電動公共汽車,是不是?油電就沒有了?因為現在我們大部分的公共巴士目前都是往電動公共汽車來發展那現在只有電動公共汽車可以減免公務稅就對了?完全免稅,但是油電混合車是可以減半課徵"},{"start":8121.869,"end":8142.407,"text":"它還是有減半課徵的相關規定因為遊覽車客運商業同業公會他們也提出陳情希望說遊覽車他們具有大眾運輸的功能希望能夠比照免徵貨物稅不知道你們有沒有收到這份陳情含因為遊覽車是不是屬於大眾運輸的車輛可能要請交通部來做一些評估"},{"start":8144.208,"end":8167.976,"text":"有關這個發展大眾運輸條例所稱的大眾運輸它是指有固定的路線、固定的班次還有固定的場站、還有固定的費率或者是說中央主管就要合併的特殊服務方式提供偏遠離島這些地區的特殊服務的公共運輸設施遊覽車是不是符合這個大眾運輸的"},{"start":8171.357,"end":8172.098,"text":"接著請王宏威王委員質詢"},{"start":8199.84,"end":8204.603,"text":"謝謝主席我請我們政務次長李次長還有複稅署署長委員好次長好"},{"start":8215.824,"end":8239.235,"text":"市長、署長好我延續一下剛才李光澤委員所詢問的那這個部分其實是確實非常重要就是有關於我們公共運輸的貨物稅的部分那我剛聽起來電動的部分因為它是有一整套有關電動車的部分可以繼續的做減免那油電的部分做減半由原來的免貨物稅變成減半是是這樣嗎?是因為油性的條例對油電也是減半課程"},{"start":8244.157,"end":8268.532,"text":"現在就是減辦,所以他可以繼續的做減辦那低頂牌公車的部分呢?低頂牌公車因為他現在基本上都是往電動公共汽車發展所以他應該會走到電動公共汽車的範圍但是如果他不是電動車的話就沒有辦法去做減免了嗎?目前就是可能交通部他並沒有建議我們繼續給他免稅"},{"start":8270.953,"end":8289.347,"text":"但是這個就是像地底盤公車我們台北市非常多我們台北市算是公車的路線而且其實服務的這個品質也都達到一定那地底盤公車一直是城市文明的一個象徵其實我會希望建議不管地底盤公車它是屬於用電動車當然這個是我們的政策"},{"start":8291.348,"end":8291.608,"text":"接下來呢"},{"start":8306.641,"end":8327.541,"text":"也要跟這個次長跟署長來討論一下剛才呢李昆政委員也特別提到的我們目前有一些租稅的減免優惠呢到了今年他就是應該出現落日那麼現在看起來呢有的可能會有比較一致性但是有一些可能兩派不同的意見那麼因為"},{"start":8329.563,"end":8344.31,"text":"市長會留任嗎?我想署長應該也暫時不會異動那部長也會留任雖然他現在人不在那我想請問一下當沖的部分剛才有特別當沖主要是金管會來希望說能夠繼續延長5年但是我覺得"},{"start":8348.132,"end":8370.345,"text":"在上一次主計處4月底公布的資本這個就是有關於我們的貧富差距擴大到66.9倍那麼非常明顯的是就是你今天如果是資本利得的部分你靠錢滾錢的人他就很容易賺錢但是如果你是靠死薪水"},{"start":8371.005,"end":8373.626,"text":"我沒有看到我們針對未來的政策也可以做些什麼樣改變"},{"start":8399.115,"end":8415.084,"text":"我們就當沖稅的部分,其實我覺得如果今天當沖的稅率的減免,如果繼續的已經到了一個落日,今年年底還要繼續調降的話,那它的"},{"start":8416.54,"end":8445.482,"text":"訴求是什麼他的論述是什麼難道我們繼續要去鼓勵資本所得然後我們並沒有對勞動所得者給他一定的優惠在股市上大家在做航海王啊上沖下洗上沖下洗那另外我也提供一些可能儘管會沒有去跟大家所講的事情事實上我們現在我們如果看到右邊我們上市櫃的當沖的成交比額及佔比"},{"start":8446.383,"end":8473.941,"text":"因為在2017七年的時候我們提出了當沖稅率的下降那麼你可以看到從一百零五年當沖的金額從2.6兆到一百零六年就暴增到6.9兆一百零七年繼續的增加到12.3兆然後接下來因為每一年就一直延長一直延長延長的結果我們這幾年在110年的時候甚至高達到47.7兆"},{"start":8476.443,"end":8493.298,"text":"所以就是說我們當沖的金額跟當沖的占比都占總體的交易的金額跟總體的占比大幅的提高所以如果今天我們是要鼓勵大家多多的去交易股票"},{"start":8494.459,"end":8505.923,"text":"上沖下洗鼓勵大家當航海王我們也知道很多的小資族因為他覺得可能有賺頭可能在上班的時候也在那邊進去出來這個鼓勵事實上已經完全達到了"},{"start":8511.379,"end":8536.307,"text":"數字會說話所以我今天也是希望我很少表態你都知道其實對於民貸來講最好都是減稅如果要加稅民貸都不願意表態但是我願意來在這邊做表態我覺得如果以鼓勵的話從金額跟佔比你們都可以告訴金管會還要怎樣你要讓它飛上天了嗎第二個很重要的"},{"start":8537.153,"end":8564.727,"text":"在台股當初的金額一直在創紀錄的狀況下股民到底有沒有獲利請金管會來給你這個資料這個是左邊的圖2021、2022、2023扣除掉所有相關的贊交稅手續費這些相關的成本股民整體平均來講有賺嗎財政部可以告訴金管會有沒有賺"},{"start":8566.36,"end":8567.181,"text":"我再給你一個最新的數據"},{"start":8590.359,"end":8609.774,"text":"這可能是很多的航海王當沖的股票族他們不知道的事情我們以2023年當沖的收益金額衰退了因為大家覺得我這樣子這麼花那麼多的時間跟那麼多成本殺進殺出殺進殺出也沒有賺多少所以衰退了兩成之多"},{"start":8610.675,"end":8618.541,"text":"然後在2023年扣除手續費跟相關的交易稅成本之後全年當沖客慘賠239億239億平均每一戶賠24萬"},{"start":8628.12,"end":8642.547,"text":"平均每戶賠24萬所以我也講說其實我不曉得金管會金管會因為希望能夠維持股市的榮景那你們財政部在反對其實我今天財政部如果我只管收稅的話我應該覺得很高興啊繼續衝啊衝啊 對不對反正我再收稅就好啦"},{"start":8645.908,"end":8668.504,"text":"反正政府是最大的莊家可是我覺得從我們在很多的稅收如果你今天是一個鼓勵的性質如果他的鼓勵已經達到你的目標而且超目標了那請問他繼續延長的道理是什麼你沒有讓金管會說清楚講明白金管會不能為了他只是維持他股市上的榮景"},{"start":8669.298,"end":8690.385,"text":"就這樣子然後另外還要賺的是什麼呢那就是交易商嘛券商賺嘛你們一直衝一直衝管你是賺是賠啊反正我手續費一直賺一直賺你們的稅一直收一直收所以我覺得你們把這些事情說清楚講明白告訴我們很多的股民我們不是不照顧股民"},{"start":8690.945,"end":8691.646,"text":"你們當沖老半天,你們都虧嘛!你看2023年虧239億,前年虧300億,幹前年2021虧你435億!"},{"start":8700.911,"end":8723.24,"text":"事實上是載的是誰?載的是這些投資戶嘛所以這點我覺得有很多你們把它講清楚說明白你的認數數把它站穩而且我覺得我們的政策我們說很多稅制需要改革我們的政策我覺得不要太偏向的一直再去鼓勵資本所得者"},{"start":8723.9,"end":8740.911,"text":"我們對薪資所得者其實這樣子兩邊的差距實在是不夠均衡同不同意這個委員提供的這些數據我們一定會列入我們跟那個就是評估的參考其實這些我們也都有跟金管會要求他們提供這些資料給我們做"},{"start":8741.471,"end":8747.955,"text":"我告訴你嘛,金管會要爭取他不會告訴你這些嗎?我告訴你嘛,他不願意提供的資料我提供給你了,是不是?金管會不會提供這些資料給你啊?因為他要降嘛,對不對?繼續降可是基於他是產業主管機關的立場,他還是要提供給我們"},{"start":8765.807,"end":8767.169,"text":"現場這一位張宏祿張委員質詢完就休息10分鐘請張宏祿委員"},{"start":8797.421,"end":8825.262,"text":"我請李政次請李次長其實我們今天想這個議題我有一個想要請教一下我們現在很多的老的房子透天的都鼓勵人家加裝電梯方便加裝老者移動那次長這些加裝的這些設備是不是增加了房屋稅"},{"start":8826.628,"end":8841.606,"text":"目前是生薑設備如果是他因為是屬於雜項工作物啦他是我們房屋稅條例裡面所說的課稅標的因為他而且他因為可以增加房屋使用價值所以基本上目前是課稅的範圍"},{"start":8843.448,"end":8868.79,"text":"但是部分呢因為這個稅基的評定呢他可以在稅基評定的時候由地方政府來做一些核實的評定如果說地方政府有考量就是是為了高齡社會的來臨還有電梯是為了行動不便的長者所必須的話他在評定的時候可以針對這個家裝電梯的住家用的房屋呢做一些核實的調整"},{"start":8869.724,"end":8895.241,"text":"所以主要是限職的調整可是這樣子變成我們不要講全國啦六都就標準不一致是不是這樣子目前因為這個部分是地方政府的權責啦我當然知道這個是地方政府的權責沒有錯但你以一樣的六都來講就好了臺北跟新北就不一樣啊共同生活圈啊你覺得我們財政部不需要去協調嗎"},{"start":8897.142,"end":8923.313,"text":"當然我們可以參考一下各縣市政府的狀況也許我們看看是不是需要就是來督導他們盡量往一致的方向來做處理我簡單說像台北市他108年之後他們召開不動產平價委員會他們就取消了五層樓以下房屋設有電梯的這個加價的規定"},{"start":8926.394,"end":8949.529,"text":"我們新北市還是有啊你只要你又鼓勵我們的人去申請補助然後去裝電梯結果裝了電梯之後我們的房屋稅又要增加那其實光新北跟台北就非常的不一致我覺得這個我們財政部是不是應該要去協調一下"},{"start":8950.833,"end":8975.055,"text":"委員讓我們來跟那個兩個縣市我們來了解一下看看是不是有辦法就是讓他們在評定的過程當中有一個一致的參考標準我必須說六都裡面的臺北新北桃園桃園也沒有臺北也沒有只有新北有那這樣子其實我覺得這個金額不大"},{"start":8976.075,"end":8976.976,"text":"好,好,謝謝委員"},{"start":9006.049,"end":9006.61,"text":"現在休息10分鐘"},{"start":9050.68,"end":9051.023,"text":"運用!"},{"start":9051.023,"end":9051.043,"text":"運用!"},{"start":9643.959,"end":9648.202,"text":"謝謝主席,主席請次長請理事長"},{"start":9673.063,"end":9678.504,"text":"國內貧富差距越來越高現在是窮更窮、富更富現在差距標破66倍相當的驚人你看一下109年"},{"start":9696.283,"end":9701.807,"text":"所得分配擬具和相對應的稅捐負擔的比例,這個藍色線是所得分配擬具紅色線是相對應的稅捐負擔簡單的趨勢看來就是所得越來越多的時候相對應的稅捐負擔差距越來越大"},{"start":9716.888,"end":9738.773,"text":"意思就是說一般百姓的心聲比如說上班族、薪資就覺得說每賺的每一分錢都要繳稅就是窮人一分錢、一分稅都跑不掉那富人賺的比較多事實上沒有相對應繳比較多稅有沒有什麼方式可以在稅制上面改革我相信我國的這個富裕階層有願意多繳一點稅為國家貢獻心力"},{"start":9742.194,"end":9768.662,"text":"但在稅制上我們有沒有什麼方式、什麼政策來改變這樣的情形?報告委員其實我們在所得存分配這件事情上面財政部是非常重視的所以近幾年除了我們之前對於這些薪資所得者還有就是中低所得者還有一些育兒家庭我們有了很多的減稅措施之外呢當然我們也希望能夠對一些就是所得比較高的人或財富比較充裕的人"},{"start":9769.202,"end":9789.829,"text":"我們希望能夠合理的課稅所以我們也實施了這個就是房地合一所的稅制還有房屋稅的差別稅率2.0的制度那另外我們也在所的基本稅的條例裡面呢針對這個如果是一般民眾的去買賣未上市貴股票的這個證券交易所的呢我們也把它納入我們基本所的課稅的範圍"},{"start":9791.569,"end":9802.097,"text":"當然這個部分的制度的改變當然希望能夠對於所得重分配這件事情能夠有一些琢磨那其實經過我們這麼多的努力其實從稅的角度來看的話像現在我們正在申報綜合所得稅我們從110年度綜合所得稅申報的狀況來看其實已經有305萬戶的民眾他是不用繳稅的"},{"start":9814.205,"end":9829.277,"text":"因為我們現在是納稅期你們之前有過一個納稅者權利保護法保護納稅人的權利所以你們都會公布每年基本生活所需費用112年現在1比3繳20.2萬元就是不用繳稅的門檻這個法律通過以後是2016年12月"},{"start":9840.285,"end":9844.45,"text":"我們立法院三次通過那同年12月28號總統公佈以後2017年12月28開始實行但到目前為止沒有修訂任何一個條文那你們有沒有做什麼相關的修法討論因為我們納保法從106年實施到現在基本上因為它運作的也算相當的順暢"},{"start":9861.167,"end":9864.188,"text":"納保法第20條有規定稅爭機關應該主動提供納稅者妥適必要的協助並以任務編組方式指定專人為納稅者權力保護官"},{"start":9879.973,"end":9884.017,"text":"目前全國納保官是誰擔任?目前納保官是由我們各基金機關資深的稅務同仁來擔任"},{"start":9898.729,"end":9919.889,"text":"﹏﹏"},{"start":9919.949,"end":9943.403,"text":"會不會有點求言兼裁判?不會,其實這個要跟委員報告為什麼我們是由我們自己稅務院金官的人員任務編組來擔任這個納稅者權力保護官因為呢我們現在這個讓他進入納保官的這些同仁他都是非常有經驗的資深的人而且他對稅務案件是非常了解的"},{"start":9945.024,"end":9960.714,"text":"現在像我們常常接受很多民眾的陳情案那如果說這個納保官又是你們裡面的人那很多的這個行政處跟他說課徵的決定事實上就是你們裡面的人比如說相關的課徵機關他們隨間跡徵決定了你如果叫裡面人當納保官的話這樣子我剛剛說這樣子怎麼樣保護人民的權益呢"},{"start":9969.239,"end":9971.22,"text":"我相信非常有經驗,都可以協助解決問題。"},{"start":9988.03,"end":9998.957,"text":"客觀或是公平這個是很重要的也不是從我們從您來看這是從百姓有的人也可以去跟民間訪查一下像我們接受過我們納管服務的這些納稅人或者是我們這些工會的業者記帳室、會計師工會他們都覺得納保管的服務確實是能夠給予他們很多的協助而且我們這些服務的結果"},{"start":10011.164,"end":10032.349,"text":"每一季我們都會開諮詢委員會來邀請外部的學者專家來做相關的檢視那我們服務的成果也會在每一年都會公佈公佈於我們這個機關的網站而且有報給立法院來做參考所以這個部分其實也可以我們是覺得值得可以檢視的可以經得起檢視的所以你覺得由你們自己來擔任是沒有什麼"},{"start":10033.069,"end":10033.089,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":10052.66,"end":10073.837,"text":"今天討論這個地方稅這個問題現在有地方特別稅的縣市有10個嘛桃園、高雄、宜蘭、苗栗南投、雲林、嘉義、屏東、花蓮跟台東啦我們金門縣已經也討論過要增這個觀光稅但是現在景氣非常不好這不可能啦因為我們很怕嚇走這個旅客啦但是我們金門縣常在討論的事情是說這個"},{"start":10075.638,"end":10092.475,"text":"我們的過境旅客相當多啦那也許對地方的有點貢獻但貢獻還是不足啦齁過境的這個旅客那你覺得我們旅島這個是不是可以考慮對這個過境旅客科一點過境的捐啊這一個部分你可以幫我們研究一下嗎"},{"start":10093.175,"end":10119.951,"text":"是各位報告因為我們地方稅法通則雖然有賦予地方可以開徵這個特別稅客或這個相關的權責但是呢因為我們這個通則的第三條有特別明定就是說對於這個有關這個轄區外的交易啊也就是流通至轄區外的天然資源或者是礦產品或者是說有損及國家整體利益或其他地方公共利益的事項是不宜克徵的"},{"start":10120.811,"end":10134.754,"text":"那以前金門縣也曾經有過想要對就是不只金門縣還有有些縣市呢都因為觀光的考量有些是覺得人太多了造成他們的污染啊希望能夠對過境對他們就是對過境但是過境人倒是不少而且沒事只要"},{"start":10144.656,"end":10144.676,"text":"好,謝謝"},{"start":10194.41,"end":10205.773,"text":"主席、各人、處列席、官員等主席,請李次長李次長,您好您好整個"},{"start":10207.728,"end":10233.309,"text":"人員的異動方面財政部是西線無戰事大家天天過好日我看到署長們大家都是笑主言開在沒有一些人事的更迭當中我想請教一下次長因為大家都講說貧富的差距越來越大"},{"start":10235.662,"end":10260.832,"text":"66.9倍其實是這個必須要正視的一個問題那最主要就是感覺像在這個集聚當中我想請問一下次長你覺得你是有錢的還是沒錢的我是中間的中間的好那其實國家要做的事情就是讓有錢人富者更富讓覺得"},{"start":10262.011,"end":10288.705,"text":"沒有錢的人他可以受到保障未來有希望希望每個人年年是好年日日是好日那要怎麼做呢我覺得就好像今天的地方的這個稅法通則一樣站在22縣市每個地方大家都想要地方自治自主財源要多一點"},{"start":10289.673,"end":10314.108,"text":"但是我希望說市長你的政策工具很多喔怎麼樣運用智慧讓全民富起來其實這很重要的我們讓貧窮縣在66.9倍當中的40%怎麼樣多鼓勵他減輕他的負擔多多照顧他讓他強起來讓他富起來簡單的講"},{"start":10318.615,"end":10336.765,"text":"你就把台灣很多的政策的這個措施變成新加坡化我請問你杜拜杜拜有沒有很多的稅我在財委會發現喔是中華民國萬萬萬的稅中華民國萬萬萬的稅這個稅那個稅一大堆的稅"},{"start":10345.455,"end":10361.583,"text":"每個地方講的大家都同理心地方錢多一點可是我覺得長此之計不是一個長遠、可長、可大、可久的方法所以市長我們之前講的娛樂稅要不要廢掉"},{"start":10363.268,"end":10364.009,"text":"一年總共加條大概17億左右"},{"start":10391.755,"end":10420.767,"text":"那在立法院所有的草野立委每個人覺得那個都不合時宜都應該廢啦我覺得在你現在這個立場的話你有沒有什麼連不連任什麼的壓力現在沒有壓力我就應該就做實事講正確的話的時候這些雜七雜八的小的東西事實上回歸到一句話台語叫 麻吉秋來春你聽得懂嗎"},{"start":10422.512,"end":10424.494,"text":"你覺得你心裡要給他多少,就給他多少,就跟他講說100塊。"},{"start":10443.035,"end":10472.381,"text":"比較需要吃多一點的,你就一樣說我不會給你五塊,但是我做大塊一點的給他,裡面還多加一點花生粉。這個就是沉知在你的一心。所以我覺得心裡會有一個平衡點。說穿了,其實大家都在要錢,重點是你要給他多少錢才可以真正照顧他。"},{"start":10474.281,"end":10496.193,"text":"所以像新北剛剛也講到財劃法統籌分配稅款臺北縣邊新北市有好一點點啦就是中央一點點憐憫關愛的眼神有多一點點但是不夠啊因為進步不多啊大家感受不到啊"},{"start":10497.29,"end":10521.738,"text":"所以你在下次從頭分配稅款的時候就應該給新北市因為400多萬人要多照顧一點有很多的長輩 有很多的老者 有很多的年輕朋友學校的問題 還有醫療的問題所以你就要多多爭取多一點來把新北市的所有市民照顧好"},{"start":10523.247,"end":10550.98,"text":"反正其他的直轄市該給的你就多給你要想想看嘛到底這個餅要怎麼做可以做得到本席也曾經提過啊保險法146條的修正啊你把對海外的投資上限往下調降一半回來的資金就多6兆多啊6兆多你怎麼用"},{"start":10552.424,"end":10581.445,"text":"財政部你們可以給建議金管會你們可以給方向高速公路可不可以拿出來當作是一個像高鐵一樣固定的收益你說錢滾錢整個台灣都熱絡起來了所以在這裡本席要拜託市長你已經沒有什麼連任不連任的這個壓力了請你冷靜"},{"start":10582.922,"end":10603.617,"text":"在最近有陸陸續續這個是新的會期有很多的修正的法案、條例通通都送過來了我們大概再過兩個禮拜以後新的閣僑也上任了以後我們希望大家是共同來努力的是做一個可大、可長、可久讓"},{"start":10605.694,"end":10614.556,"text":"台灣人民有好日子可以過的所有新的這個法案希望這是可以期待的市長不曉得你怎麼想"},{"start":10615.641,"end":10636.836,"text":"我覺得委員當然委員非常這個替全民著想也替各縣市著想但是就是我們不管是在稅制的修正或者是相關於像財劃法的修正方面我覺得我們應該要考慮的部分除了就是當然一方面是財政收入的穩健的問題另外一方面當然我們要考慮整個國家產業的經濟發展的問題當然還要考慮到一些社會正義跟租稅公平的問題還有簡化基準的問題"},{"start":10644.622,"end":10670.722,"text":"我覺得我們將來未來不管是稅制的改革或者是相關法律的修正方面,財政部會秉持這四大原則來做一些比較橫平性的考量希望能夠在...我們現在現在一共有多少啊?我們總共20個稅吧。20個喔?對,20個稅。但是各個國家都一樣,不是只有台灣合照的稅制。20個稅那麼多齁,你問113個立委齁,請你說出20個有哪20個?我看一半都講不出來。"},{"start":10674.985,"end":10690.697,"text":"你講過一半的就不錯,這個老民嘛,清稅簡正才是正辦,讓台灣人民過好日子才是大家應該做努力的方向。那我請問你,杜拜有那麼多的稅客項目嗎?"},{"start":10692.486,"end":10692.906,"text":"盡量不要太多啦"},{"start":10715.109,"end":10737.514,"text":"叫清稅減政,你看有沒有辦法降到大概10個,反正老百姓都知道我賺的錢我就繳稅,啊不要你不要跟我講那麼多的項目,我就看一個人多少或者是什麼樣的項目,我就繳了多少稅,結束。啊不要再囉嗦,哇這個稅那個稅,讓民眾有一個想法都,哇這個政府怎麼死要錢啊。"},{"start":10738.749,"end":10765.971,"text":"不過委員我們的稅客收入的課徵基本上有些是著重在所得有些是著重在財產它基本上是針對不同的所得或財產讓每一個民眾基本合理的負擔一部分的稅負比如說你所得你不是你沒有所得的人但是你有房屋的人有土地的人那你是不是應該就去繳一些財產稅就大家一起合理對國家的稅收都有一些合理的貢獻這樣子比較公平合理啦好啦就是盡量啦叫做清稅譴證謝謝謝謝委員"},{"start":10769.942,"end":10773.203,"text":"主席好、各位委員、各位官員、大家早安、大家好。是不是有請我們政治,謝謝。"},{"start":10795.157,"end":10812.933,"text":"政事長,謝謝政事的辛勞。因為上次本席在這邊質詢的時候,有特別提到0403大地震之後,就是說有關於很多的災民,尤其是我們災民還有很多的家裡有一些毀損或是財產的損失,可以申請災害損失的部分。"},{"start":10817.26,"end":10844.423,"text":"財政部這邊也苦民所苦第一個就是讓災害損失的部分從15萬上升到30萬是書面審核第二個是延長申報時間從一個月到三個月那請問一下這個是只有給這個就是0403大地震之後的一個特別的臨時性的措施還是未來不管是災害損失的金額的部分跟時間的部分未來都會延長"},{"start":10845.183,"end":10861.227,"text":"我説明一下這個15萬提高到30萬是一個就是將來就是說不管任何的災害發生都是用這樣的標準那至於一個月延長到三個月呢就是看災情的狀況那這一次主要是04、03比較重大的災害發生的時候我們會延長到報損的期間但是我們也授權給各個地方各個縣市各個國稅局他們到時候看災害也許只是一個地方的災害的狀況"},{"start":10872.529,"end":10897.034,"text":"他們也可以看待災害實際發生的狀況來延長這個期間到3個月所以已經給他們彈性了所以是可以是災害損失的部分是不包含說未來是有沒有因為0403的部分未來都是有1個月到3個月對都可以有就市災情實際上的狀況可能讓他們各地方政府來做一個調整但是如果是重大災害一定是就直接延長到3個月"},{"start":10899.249,"end":10925.245,"text":"所以這個部分可能還是要跟民眾稍微說明一下那第二個部分我要幫忙就是最近這個里長的部分都很辛勞那最近內政部有一個新的規定就是說在年中的部分要發七萬五千元給所有辛勞的里長那全台的里長大概有7748位那請問一下我們測這個部分這發的這個七萬五千塊它是一個什麼樣的性質"},{"start":10926.718,"end":10944.11,"text":"他是一個什麼樣性質我們可能還要再去問一下內政部因為如果說他本身的性質是屬於像村里長事務補助費這種性質的話那因為是用於村里長辦公室的事務還有推行政令所用這部分是免稅的"},{"start":10945.111,"end":10963.643,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":10963.923,"end":10985.013,"text":"年底這個7萬5千塊的部分那我們當然我們身為民意代表都跟里長站在同一線我們希望說這個部分一定要來申請免稅因為它基本上這個跟正式報告這個它基本上發放的基準就是依照這個事務費每個月5萬塊的基準的1.5個月那事務費就您那麼專業您應該知道說事務費它是免稅的一個狀況所以這邊也要拜託財政部是不是要來申請這個"},{"start":10991.696,"end":10992.056,"text":"議員賴士葆"},{"start":11009.666,"end":11024.997,"text":"通常我們不會把認定是正語因為我這邊也是要提醒一下就是說依照這個退休公務人員他有現在我們有在補助他這個三節的慰問金他是依照這個所得稅法第4條第一項第17款的這個部分"},{"start":11026.217,"end":11045.292,"text":"是免稅的一個狀況所以我們希望說依照這兩點我們希望說里長的這個年底發放的這個七萬五千塊的部分我們希望來幫他爭取是免稅的一個部分拜託正式來協助所以我們會再洽一下內政部釐清這個相關他的性質因為這個影響到7748位里長的權益因為每一個人所的狀況都不同如果要納稅的話當然我們都"},{"start":11052.657,"end":11080.613,"text":"鼓勵大家應該合法納稅可是這個是因為里長非常辛苦給他這個錢那再來我要今天討論到一個很重要的點就是說有關於貨物稅條例的部分那本席也要跟我們正式報告一下因為在這個貨物稅條例裡面有一個非常重要就是有關於這個全國身心障礙人數現在超過121萬人有關於這個富康巴士的這個部分那本席有提出這個"},{"start":11081.613,"end":11100.22,"text":"負稅第12條第一項第一款第二幕有關於這個汽車那個大型公共汽車這個部分從到今年113年的年底就已經已經到借期了那有關於升新障礙巴士在新北市有500萬台"},{"start":11102.662,"end":11118.922,"text":"有500台,服務超過17.4萬名的身心障礙朋友,所以他出勤務的次數很多。請教一下政事,有關於身心障礙巴士的部分,是不是有機會把它延期?"},{"start":11120.109,"end":11120.429,"text":"財政部的"},{"start":11139.171,"end":11157.461,"text":"對,基本上如果主管機關的意見因為他們對他們會提出一些具體的意見那如果說他們提出以後我們會因為要延長所以這是你支持嗎對,原則上我們就是如果基本上稅損是有限的而且他的稅事支出評估確實有他的必要性的話我們會支持的"},{"start":11158.268,"end":11174.155,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":11174.355,"end":11175.115,"text":"拜託政事這邊一定要大力來鼓勵就是說把這個免稅的時間給延長"},{"start":11192.984,"end":11218.131,"text":"最後我們會聚集來做考量,謝謝,謝謝委員好,那最後還有一點時間,最後一個問題就是有關於就是上次我在這邊有問過這個,也是有質詢過的就是說現在全台灣這個老屋的數量非常的多老屋漸減的費用是不是可以把它納入這個特別扣除額裡面的災害損失中"},{"start":11219.301,"end":11247.322,"text":"上次我有提過這個問題因為就是因為大地震過後所以很多的房屋有受損那全台灣現在因為這麼多的老屋也急需說全民一起來做一些老屋建檢的一個部分那如果是因為這個地震所造成他的房屋受損然後他來做一個這個建檢的一個費用不管是這個初檢或是整個的檢查的部分那檢查的費用有沒有機會把它納入這個災害損失中"},{"start":11247.662,"end":11248.002,"text":"這已經確定了嗎?"},{"start":11264.889,"end":11294.889,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":11295.269,"end":11295.309,"text":"議員賴士葆"},{"start":11316.642,"end":11330.222,"text":"當然未來如果說每一年他還要去支付這個見檢,就是老屋見檢的費用的話,因為跟災害已經脫鉤了,那這個部分到底可不可以認定?這只要給你報告,就像我剛剛舉個例,這個花蓮天王天王,它原本是黃丹轉成綠丹。"},{"start":11331.823,"end":11331.843,"text":"謝謝委員"},{"start":11358.137,"end":11368.16,"text":"下一位質詢請徐宇貞徐宇貞委員徐宇貞徐宇貞徐委員不在請王世堅王委員質詢"},{"start":11395.43,"end":11419.482,"text":"謝謝主席我請財政部理事長還有這個復稅署理事長宋署長宋署長好委員好那個次長、署長三個問題第一個問題是本席在"},{"start":11420.768,"end":11433.931,"text":"前兩次會議有提一個臨時提案那就是希望說我們對於免稅額寬減額的提高那應該把消費者物價指數這個上漲累計3%這個限制啊我們把3%CPI的上漲降低啦降低這個門檻結果你的答覆齁"},{"start":11449.861,"end":11471.987,"text":"我看不懂就對,你講一大堆啦,你的意思就是說我們這些免稅寬檢的已經太多項目啦吼,那包括什麼租金的寬檢啦,長照寬檢等等你寫一堆,那些本來就寬檢啊。所以我想不懂為什麼必須要達到CPI消費者物價指數漲3%以上,這一個門檻。"},{"start":11477.185,"end":11502.914,"text":"不能降低降低到2%降低到1%都不行事實上我們全民社會的感覺啊都覺得這個CPI的調查這些指數都沒辦法全面真實的反應我們事實上生活物價的高漲調整沒辦法嘛所以"},{"start":11504.912,"end":11530.47,"text":"我跟其他我們好幾位財委會同仁才會提這個臨時提案希望你們去降低啦所以我不曉得你能不能重新再考慮你收回你那一次的答覆好不好因為那個答覆我很簡單講三個字看不懂我不懂的另外一件事情就是說奇怪你們107年的時候"},{"start":11533.479,"end":11556.371,"text":"你們刪除了復仁稅刪除這復仁稅一年將近一百億這六年下來你們刪除少增了六百億的復仁稅那時候你們很慷慨啊大筆一揮也沒有這麼多其他的林林總統什麼講一大堆理由沒有沒有那這六百億"},{"start":11560.855,"end":11561.555,"text":"委員賴士葆等22人"},{"start":11581.909,"end":11601.387,"text":"感受很深而且四月份我們調漲店家以後可能後續物價的波動還會再來一波也說不定所以我希望那個次長你們回去重新把你這個答覆收回你重新再考慮好不好"},{"start":11603.015,"end":11630.364,"text":"委員我説明一下就是目前因為我們那個3%它是一個累計數啦它等於就是從上次調整到現在已經超過3%了是啦是 這個又是你的理由一堆啦那但是因為現在一般來講從行政院主義總署認定是不是通膨他是看說一年的這個CPI有沒有超過2%這些我們都知道所以我們是覺得要論這個論不完啦這個我就是告訴你不只我"},{"start":11631.124,"end":11658.766,"text":"我們提案的幾位委員我們很坦白跟你講我就是簡單跟你說三個字看不懂那在外加三個字你現在說明我再加三個字聽不懂啊就我跟你講嘛你當時你要把富人稅刪除的時候你可曾講那麼多漏漏等沒有嘛"},{"start":11660.06,"end":11681.899,"text":"不是嗎?那600億這6年來那600億大筆一揮就沒了啊不是嗎?你為了那1000人為了那1000多個有錢人最頂端的有錢人你可以大筆一揮不用任何解釋你只有簡單幾個字我上次跟你講過我也懶得再跟你講意思就是說你要流財攬財就對了"},{"start":11690.595,"end":11693.78,"text":"另外加薪減稅你們的答覆我也是覺得"},{"start":11707.934,"end":11724.751,"text":"這個你說照院版好照院版你只要你說這個加薪進了150%內這個我們可以再討論啦但是我認為這麼多年來中段班薪資的加薪最少啦"},{"start":11726.252,"end":11735.096,"text":"在我們統計室內薪資對象中段班幾乎都低於平均薪資所以我的提案才會說我們加碼到200%限度內免稅來"},{"start":11742.511,"end":11769.916,"text":"讓企業會對中階段薪資來加稅因為根據我們的調查我們現在中位數據這個有三分之二以上的勞工領不到平均數領不到平均數所以我這個提案我希望你們能夠再次看清楚一點沒有達到平均薪資的員工加薪應該給他們更高的"},{"start":11771.087,"end":11776.77,"text":"新資費用加成率才能鼓勵企業對他們加薪嘛好不好?看不懂!"},{"start":11787.455,"end":11801.905,"text":"我覺得你們奇怪,對全體多數百姓有利的,對大多數壽星階級有利的,你們就是蜘蛛壁教,講到瘋了,對那個大金額、高金額的,你們就很慷慨就對了,我不懂你們是怎麼看法,"},{"start":11814.69,"end":11815.611,"text":"我再送你6個字啦希望你在處理這些稅率調整的時候你考慮到這6個字"},{"start":11835.882,"end":11847.485,"text":"這六個字叫見負責而秒知你們如果看到有幾人你就好像看到天一樣可不可以見負責而秒知好啦我在最後幾分鐘跟你談一下機車啦齁我搞不懂財政部這麼多年以來就是對機車族啊"},{"start":11861.308,"end":11889.166,"text":"我如果用6個字形容叫做千刀萬里追就說啊機車啊是空氣汙染的元兇每次都用這個理由說啊所以我們要加徵這個機車的貨物稅結果次長你知道這多離譜嗎機車的貨物稅現在是17%竟然比大客車15%還高那大家人盡皆知啊"},{"start":11890.828,"end":11911.047,"text":"機車排放這個廢棄絕對是遠低於大客車嘛不是嗎那結果欸你們竟然這麼那你們還是一樣推給空屋我就跟環保署吊啦我說那機車真的是這麼可惡嗎欸現在新的七期排放標準現在的機車啊電動都不講電動幾乎無污染我們就講"},{"start":11916.031,"end":11932.104,"text":"新的一樣是燃油機車來講都已經是七期排放標準他在PM2.5的排放裡面他不是我們整體環境PM2.5的元兇耶機車在整體環境裡面PM2.5只佔4.9%4.9到5.6中間我就舉一項就好"},{"start":11942.816,"end":11961.756,"text":"餐飲業10%餐廳占10%你若說要追PM2.5的元兇那應該通令我們各級縣市政府衛生局、環保局對這一部分來追更何況如果要對空屋來懲罰"},{"start":11963.613,"end":11987.85,"text":"幣也正名乎你就跟他磕人家環保署去磕這個空屋費等等這才對嘛不是嗎那你弄一個你說喔這個空屋啊所以我要跟你磕貨物稅這很奇怪嘛不是嗎你這些喔因為我時間已經到了所以次長"},{"start":11989.206,"end":12013.286,"text":"好不容易你跟署長你們都應該是留任的啦那應該是可以為國家做更多的事啦我希望你們能夠把握既然留下來了可以把好好的把你對我們委員會的一些很粗糙的答覆我們其實因為習才愛才啦其實我們的憤怒遠高於剛才這些言詞好不好"},{"start":12013.846,"end":12018.729,"text":"因為你們那個答覆太輕率了謝謝主席現在集群請黃國昌、黃偉仁謝謝主席、歡迎市長"},{"start":12043.459,"end":12069.133,"text":"前理事長市長好之前我曾經在財政委員會公開提出見據說那個足協根本沒有支付球員比賽的費用竟然去發出了偽造的扣腳平單你們上一次財政部給我一個答覆說他們已經更正了"},{"start":12069.973,"end":12086.628,"text":"我的問題是明明就沒有給錢沒有給錢還可以出去偽造的扣繳平單因為上面的那個文書內容實際上面就登載不實嘛那你們說要回去研究那現在研究的結果是什麼"},{"start":12087.367,"end":12112.981,"text":"包括委員我們北區國稅局已經有處理了他們好像據我所了解應該會從就是以不實憑證來列報這個相關的費用有違反相關的法律規定所以他們會移送檢調什麼時候移送檢調我不知道他發文了沒有他現在會透過財政部來正式發文給委員黃委員"},{"start":12114.44,"end":12139.189,"text":"什麼時候會發文?委員有關這案子在你們關心之後我們北區國會局有積極處理目前他有研擬一個處理方式到我們財政部但其實這個是沒有財政部覺醒的問題這是北區國會局可以就事實來查核的問題所以我們會再跟他溝通你要跟他溝通什麼?剛剛次長講的是不是真的?就依法移送檢調?"},{"start":12141.054,"end":12169.282,"text":"目前的具體方向是這樣目前查證的結果是這樣我希望齁發現了這種離譜的犯罪事實財政部、國稅局要有立場不能讓他們這樣胡搞瞎搞因為上次我在教育委員會質詢的時候我看體育署是明顯想要放水是明顯想要放水那當然體育署他們想要放水有他們自己深層的理由嗎"},{"start":12170.422,"end":12193.862,"text":"因為現在的體育署署長當初就是那個竹協的秘書長啊所以我說我不信任體育署自己查自己現在的體育署署長去查以前的竹協秘書長這不是太荒謬了嗎但財政部今天這樣子的答覆我覺得有做到一個行政機關依法行政該做的事情就像我上次跟你們講的嘛這麼離譜的事情"},{"start":12195.723,"end":12223.521,"text":"不是要透過好像內部喬一喬私下跟著就算了該移送檢調就要移送檢調你們正式移送檢調的時候公文一併回覆給我可以嗎?會我們現在就是其實我們北區國稅局就是要正式答覆委員只是因為當時是財委會裡面的會議紀錄所以他們才想透過財政部來做回覆進述好不好?我們會進述回覆請部長不要把公文壓到桌上喔不會我們這個部分會進述回覆"},{"start":12224.461,"end":12240.916,"text":"第二個事情我之前也在財委會公開質詢過針對2019年張瑩由李磚挪用客戶6300萬結果檢調明明都去收了那媒體爆料了以後張瑩才急急忙忙發布重訊你看這個時間序上"},{"start":12242.977,"end":12265.984,"text":"張寅我們工股行庫財政部在進行管理的時候對於工股行庫發生這麼離譜的事情那是不是有消息的遮掩有沒有依法發重訊啊這件事情我上次提出的質詢以後請問財政部有沒有請你們國庫署因為我知道國庫署的副署長應該在張寅是董事嘛"},{"start":12267.011,"end":12279.981,"text":"到底發生了什麼事?他們怎麼處理的?這樣子處理是不是符合相關的規定?財政部後續的處理是什麼?因為我完全沒有看到張瑩針對這件事情有任何公開的回覆。"},{"start":12286.395,"end":12289.537,"text":"公司發生內部舞弊、非常規交易或掏空資產的重大事件"},{"start":12312.049,"end":12335.291,"text":"這個算不算依照臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司發布重訊的相關規定現在我的問題就來了嘛張雲連自己裡面挪用客戶6300萬這種事情都可以不發重訊啊現在我在質疑的是這是不是財政部的立場這是不是國庫署的立場"},{"start":12336.86,"end":12357.647,"text":"因為這個態度奠定下去了以後以後所有不僅僅是公股行庫啊民營的銀行大家有樣學樣啊所以公股行庫在這種情況下都沒有發重訊的憑什麼要求我們其他的民營銀行在這個時候要發布重訊禮專捏去挪用了客戶6300萬捏"},{"start":12360.353,"end":12382.96,"text":"那目前國庫署的立場是說在這種情況下不用發布重訊沒有關係嗎?我們這邊的回應是說因為依照當時發生的時候他還很難判斷說他到底符不符合發布重訊的一個相關規定你們是到什麼時候才確定他有挪用6300萬?他109年7月的時候他就已經發布重訊"},{"start":12384.278,"end":12411.948,"text":"你現在在2019年6月的時候不就發現了這件事嗎?這個就是我講的point阿你一定要等到媒體爆料的時候然後你們才發了遲來的証訊問題是這本來就是上市公司自己要揭露的事情阿你現在在跟我講的事情是在發布証訊以前張宜內部還沒有確定有的6300萬被挪用是真的嗎?"},{"start":12414.785,"end":12442.727,"text":"國庫署好來沒有關係下一個案子2024年彰化銀行發現了又有一樣但是也沒用客戶的款項利用他人的帳戶移轉客戶的資金向客戶借貸從事不當的投資有沒有向財政部通報有沒有移檢調有沒有發訊息"},{"start":12445.57,"end":12467.824,"text":"有,他這個部份在1月24號有發重大我發到財政部發給財政部以後呢,他有發重訊嗎?你剛不是跟我說要發線了以後才能發那我現在就貼啊張宜內部的通告給你看啊,他們發線了啊有處分了啊有發重訊嗎?這個發布重訊的部份目前"},{"start":12475.424,"end":12481.689,"text":"先停一下齁我們的公股行庫有沒有依照證書、證交所的規定發訊息財政部的立場是這件事情財政部管不到,是這樣嗎?"},{"start":12500.632,"end":12525.775,"text":"如果連我們自己的公股、黃褲都沒有依照證交所相關的規定該發訊息的時候發訊息,你要怎麼去要求其他的上市櫃公司?這個不是最基本的嗎?首先張瑩她是依據她相關規定判斷,但是我們也會事後再督導一下張瑩這邊有沒有確實的落實所以你們督導的結果是怎麼樣?"},{"start":12528.049,"end":12550.138,"text":"你們督導的結果如何?目前我們看過他們的相關資料喔,他們自己的內部資料裡面是都有定相關的一些發生…我已經貼出來給你看了!我已經貼出來給你看了!張瑩自己已經認定了!我現在的問題是為什麼這種事情我們的公股、航庫可以遮掩?為什麼可以不用發訊息?"},{"start":12551.943,"end":12579.15,"text":"這是我的問題啦因為主席站起來了他一直跟我示意我時間到了請財政部跟張穎一起書面回覆好嗎?謝謝委員可以這個標準 這個標準的實踐很重要喔如果連我們的公股行戶自己都不守規矩財政部一句話都不吭我們以後如何要求其他上市貴公司發生舞弊的時候要依法發訟訊需要多久的時間?一個禮拜之內可以嗎?"},{"start":12581.084,"end":12584.666,"text":"一個禮拜之內可以嗎?一個月的時間太長了,請主席才是好,時間到,兩個禮拜資料補充請兩個禮拜之內把東西交出來"},{"start":12605.947,"end":12634.355,"text":"好,下一位質詢請洪孟楷委員,洪孟楷,洪孟楷,洪孟楷委員不在,請鍾嘉斌鍾委員質詢主席,在場的委員先進,如果還有的話,列席政府金融市場官員,會長工作夥伴,記者媒體林先生,有請財政部理事長謝謝理事長"},{"start":12637.828,"end":12664.757,"text":"市長好,我們最近常常就財政部有關於稅負公平跟照顧弱勢的來跟您進行請教那我們來今天看一看今天這個案例其實我很少看到財政部對立法院修法你們只有簡單兩頁那看起來財政部對於這樣的修法似乎意見是沒有太多意見那我請教一下目前政府各地方政府開徵特別稅有徵也有行政輸送的有哪幾件"},{"start":12665.53,"end":12677.177,"text":"目前只有花蓮縣政府的這一件那這一件的主要標的是什麼?他是礦石開採特別稅他在2009年然後到2012年他公布自治條例是4年4年的期程是根據我們的規定的嘛"},{"start":12687.083,"end":12708.971,"text":"他是可以4年,對沒錯,特別稅就是14年嘛,然後呢他在2016年廢止嘛,廢止之後呢他原來10塊錢變成70塊錢,為什麼他要提前廢止?那是不是提前廢止之後他就可以從10塊調到70塊?是這個原因嗎?從10元調到70元,是不是受他自己自治條例的限制?"},{"start":12710.055,"end":12737.094,"text":"對,他自己的自治條例對他自己的自治條例規定了他就不能夠調超過百分之三十是不是這樣?沒有,因為我們那個因為他自治條例他是依照地方稅法通則第三條的規定第三條不是第四條嘛對,第四條才有中央立法的地方稅才會有百分之三十中央立法的地方稅是像什麼?房屋稅房屋稅、地價稅還有使用牌照稅對的所以他自己的自治條例是要根據第三條"},{"start":12737.714,"end":12741.475,"text":"因為他要調整稅額或者是要訂立新的稅額他必須要把原來的自治條例廢止然後重新新訂自治條例要經過議會的通過才可以執行"},{"start":12765.514,"end":12793.917,"text":"所以說他提前廢止他公布一個新的這個新的就從10塊到70塊了對不對所以他因為他是根據第3條不是第4條所以他可以這樣有權這樣做是這樣嗎?依照目前的第3條是這樣那我來問一下那現在我們來看一下齁全國各地方政府只有花蓮有這樣的一個稅收嘛對不對而且你看喔哇這個金額南投還有一些啊其他的都在30、30左右"},{"start":12795.267,"end":12798.491,"text":"請問一下我們看到可是他這個行政訴訟他連敗20次欸"},{"start":12813.917,"end":12842.739,"text":"沒有啦,大概就是八件吧。八件,二十四全部敗訴。那為什麼法院判他敗訴?法院判敗訴的原因,第一個就是他,因為法院,行政法院對於我們第三條、第四條的適用範圍,他們可能有一些誤解,誤以為他是要受到第四條30%的限制。可能法院上認知上跟我們立法者或者我們執法者有點不太一樣。但是,我覺得這要小心啦。"},{"start":12843.439,"end":12861.534,"text":"因為全國只有花蓮產大理石,對不對?花蓮是大理石主要礦區,全國用的水泥是不是來自於花蓮為主?礦場這樣的市場嘛,對不對?那如果說他因為調整這個稅造成建材上漲,房價會不會上升?"},{"start":12864.022,"end":12882.756,"text":"有沒有評估過這個情況?不一定,但是有這個可能我舉個例子好了啦講金門高粱啦如果說今天全台灣就有個金門可以那裡的水可以釀高粱酒大家喜歡的高粱酒如果說不是金門縣政府投資一個金酒公司是金門縣政府根據第三條來對"},{"start":12884.978,"end":12911.416,"text":"所謂有金門釀高粱酒的酒廠課稅那我請教一下齁如果說金門縣政府把這個第三條的這個特別稅提高很多你覺得全國的金門高粱會不會漲價兩個是不同的東西你先問我先就這個部分高粱酒來問你嘛當然我知道高粱酒漲價你買不起就不要喝算了嘛對不對也不是壞事啦但是水泥不一樣所以我要說的是說其實財政部從稅理上"},{"start":12912.957,"end":12926.827,"text":"從第3條第4條分際上你們對於這樣的修正其實你們是尊重我們立法院的決定其實你們認為沒有什麼好反對的但是本要提醒你請問一下你看看花蓮先生從10塊到70塊他收的這些錢有沒有對於開礦的礦區的周邊的居民與回饋"},{"start":12931.75,"end":12936.412,"text":"你有沒有去考察這一點?那他有做嗎?你們沒有真正去了解?好,我覺得財政部管稅不是管怎麼收啦,其實你們也會考量到稅務公平看怎麼用"},{"start":12950.649,"end":12967.207,"text":"如果說今天花蓮縣政府是可以扣這麼多的稅收,占我們地方特別稅的一半這樣的稅收,是因為它有獨佔了一個全台灣的花蓮的礦產。這樣的礦產產出來的大理石還有包括它的水泥,全台灣市場在使用,這是花蓮的貢獻。"},{"start":12968.444,"end":12997.09,"text":"可是這個貢獻花田政府拿去了真正承受礦區的環境成本的是它的地區的居民所以如果這樣的稅我們在稅則上認同由地方政府來自行調整但是我們有沒有對於地方政府有沒有善盡兩部分這樣的價格會不會造成全台灣消費者的負擔以及這樣的收入有沒有反映到礦場周邊居民的回饋上您覺得這兩個要不要評估"},{"start":12999.478,"end":13021.568,"text":"其實我們現在在審查他們這些地方自治條例的時候報到財政部來審查的時候我們都有要求就是各縣市政府第一個你一定要舉辦公聽會然後要跟這個當地的影響的利害關係人進行相關溝通另外就是他的那個成本效益怎麼分析做些什麼相關的用途其實他都要提供給我們參考的"},{"start":13022.768,"end":13039.6,"text":"主席站起來我這兩個要求第一個請你就如果說這樣的稅經過修法後地方政府可以依他的意思來調整那造成了整個全國建材的波動財政部要會同經濟部趕快去評估可以嗎"},{"start":13041.071,"end":13061.842,"text":"其實我們在會議當中都經濟部我們在會前審查自治條例的時候有有有請他們表示意見啦因為今天房價的事情全部都關注好不好第二個對於花蓮縣政府他們過去公聽會上有沒有將這個收益反映在受到礦場環境成本"},{"start":13063.183,"end":13063.643,"text":"委員賴士葆"},{"start":13078.908,"end":13104.963,"text":"這個可以跟委員報告一下,我可不可以再說一分鐘就好,就是他因為他基本上他就是一個現庫的收入,現庫的收入就像他們是統收統支,他們去做相關的支出,那到底是不是有一定要回饋到那個礦區中間的財源?當然不一定啦,因為他不是專款專用的概念啦,他是一個專門的概念。所以請財政部就這邊,請地方政府要提出一個言析,讓我們大家都知道,好不好?這個我們可以請歡迎政務司法部長,謝謝。"},{"start":13112.112,"end":13112.132,"text":"致謝"},{"start":13126.044,"end":13141.264,"text":"今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢,現在進行討論事項之處理。請議事人員宣讀地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案兩案之提案內容,宣讀完畢後進行協商。"},{"start":13144.997,"end":13167.093,"text":"地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案委員賴士寶等人提案對照現行條文除現行法第一項其修正為中央立法之其與同現行條文委員傅崐萁等人提案對照現行條文除現行法第一項其修正為中央立法所定並增列第三項"},{"start":13168.394,"end":13181.97,"text":"第三條直轄市政府、縣市政府、鄉鎮市公所一第二條規定,開徵之特別稅客、臨時稅客或附加稅客不適用第一項之規定,其與同縣刑條文。宣讀完畢"},{"start":13200.651,"end":13204.378,"text":"委員會委員長"},{"start":13227.858,"end":13252.21,"text":"委員賴士葆等22人分別擬具:「地方稅法通則第4條條文修正草案．事由．審查本院委員賴士葆等22人分別擬具:「地方稅法通則第4條條文修正草案．事由．審查本院委員賴士葆等22人分別擬具:「地方稅法通則第4條條文修正草案．事由．審查本院委員賴士葆等22人分別擬具:「地方稅法通則第4條條文修正草案．事由．審查本院委員賴士葆等22人分別擬具:「地方稅法通則第4條條文修正草案．事由�"},{"start":13265.265,"end":13291.586,"text":"財政委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等22人分別擬具:「地方稅法通則第4條條文修正草案．財政委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等22人分別擬具:「地方稅法通則第4條條文修正草案．財政委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等22人分別擬具:「地方稅法通則第4條條文修正草案．財政委員賴士葆等22人分別擬具:「地方稅法通則第4條條文修正草案．財政委員賴士葆等22人分別擬具:「地方稅法通則第4條條文修"},{"start":13292.398,"end":13293.662,"text":"法定人數不足"},{"start":13307.158,"end":13323.552,"text":"委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等22人分別擬具:「地方稅法通則第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等22人分別擬具:「地方稅法通則第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議"},{"start":13323.592,"end":13351.385,"text":"委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等22人分別擬具:「地方稅法通則第4條條文修正草案．事由．審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等22人分別擬具:「地方稅法通則第4條條文修正草案．事由．審查本院委員賴士"},{"start":13359.493,"end":13361.976,"text":"主席響鐘"},{"start":13433.151,"end":13438.573,"text":"請議員宣讀協商結論先讀協商結論地方稅法通則第4條條文修正草案2案保留並案送院會協商先斷閉"},{"start":13459.246,"end":13485.399,"text":"本次會議若如下決議一、說明及詢答完畢二、委員質詢未及答覆或請補充資訊請相關部會於一周內以書面答覆委員另要求期限者從其所定委員伍麗華、王美惠、徐宇貞所提書面質詢列入紀錄刊登公報並請相關部會以書面答覆"},{"start":13486.96,"end":13511.642,"text":"地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案兩案全案審查完均並按擬具審查報告提報院會討論院會討論前需交由黨團協商院會討論時有本席補充說明另外"},{"start":13514.685,"end":13528.953,"text":"請問各位委員對以上決議有無異議?沒有異議,通過另外本次會議亦是入授權由本席核定後確定請問各位委員有無異議?"},{"start":13530.029,"end":13541.599,"text":"沒有異議通過本次會議議程已進行完畢,如果有不在場委員補題書面質詢,一併列入記錄刊登公報,並請議事人員協助處理。散會"}]}},{"id":"152182","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152182","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a68ab40497a63809b5b993287635c0a127bd65503e05c7869ecb801796c5b68923c5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"沈伯洋","委員發言時間":"09:44:53 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這個規定這個講的還不錯喔的確這個跟刑法可以有關係不是嗎那我就告訴大家對於附中然後必須或者見到中國的黨政軍必須要申報 申報不實之後的法律規定我們有沒有提出來有啊 就是在下我提出來的啊欸 結果呢 你們怎麼做"},{"start":111.889,"end":133.09,"text":"你們把他在程序委員會先做封殺第一次啊,然後再來這種院會再退回程序委員會,那你剛剛不是說要用刑法來規定嗎?那如果你把案子退回程序委員會,那這樣是要做什麼?自我矛盾嘛。那為什麼會有這種自我矛盾呢?因為你根本就不懂。自己不懂法律沒有什麼關係,助理應該都會提供給你相關的資料。"},{"start":133.69,"end":162.545,"text":"結果上來就只會做一些政治操作我覺得是非常不可取的事情再來還說什麼行政權會監督我在這邊告訴大家你立法委員要出國要不要辦護照辦護照要不要去遇到外交部遇到外交部之後請問你要不要說外交部在審查你要不要講說是行政在干預立法請問立法委員要不要繳稅繳稅之後遇到國稅局要不要說行政在干預立法不要把立法委員的職權的行使跟立法委員作為一般人所做的事情混為一談"},{"start":163.545,"end":182.583,"text":"這跟司法院院長以後如果去中國如果也要審查他照樣也要收到審查難道我們會說這個審查是干預司法嗎?更不要講說律法委員握有內政部、入委會這些的預算你以為這些人在審查的時候會很敢審查嗎?這根本就不是審查過分的問題而是審查不足的問題嘛"},{"start":183.684,"end":198.524,"text":"那最後呢再講一下齁,如果今天一直要講說要開公聽或說影響多少人我就問齁,提出來的這些花蓮有關有的沒的條例預算那麼高齁,那為什麼要直接就禁覆二讀了,為什麼不在委員會做實質討論,它影響的人數有多少。所以我翻譯到這邊齁,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152181","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152181","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a6831d2425c9a919d3284bf63cf92ad2af6d65503e05c7869ec2ff8e0841230419b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"郭國文","委員發言時間":"09:37:42 - 09:47:02","影片長度":"00:09:20","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」等2案。\n【5月6日及8日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1"},"duration":560,"end_time":"2024-05-06T09:47:02+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T09:37:42+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":189,"blocks":[["郭委員國文：（9時37分）主席，有請李慶華次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員，早安！"],["郭委員國文：次長好！次長，我剛剛看你的回答台風穩健，而且相當專業，但是我們現在面對一些問題，能不能運用你的專業來達到真正的solution及目標？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["郭委員國文：其實我覺得今天討論到地方稅法通則，免不了會牽扯到地方財政的問題，牽扯到地方財政的話，剛剛有好幾位委員，且我們在委員會當中，也提了好幾次，有關於財劃法修法的問題，可是財劃法修法的問題真的就如同你剛剛的回復一般，不應該只有考慮到垂直的分配而已，應該也要考慮到水平的分配……"],["李次長慶華：是，水平的公平，對。"],["郭委員國文：如果單純考慮到垂直的分配的情況底下，有些縣市目前自主的財源就已經高達九十幾percent了，如果這樣子的情況底下，只會讓縣市之間水平的分配更加不平均，是不是？"],["李次長慶華：是，沒錯！"],["郭委員國文：如果是這樣子的話，就應該除垂直水平之外，而且不只是單一的財政收支劃分法，還有牽扯到什麼？公債法，還有牽扯到什麼？地方稅法通則……"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["郭委員國文：也就是這三個法當中，財政部應該用一個比較通盤的角度來思考地方的財政要怎麼去改善，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：對。"],["郭委員國文：如果拉回來這麼說的話，我們今天討論的地方稅法通則從民國91年施行到現在，你覺得它對地方的財政能力有所提升嗎？就結果來看。"],["李次長慶華：跟委員報告，我們從91年施行開始，94年到112年為止，其實有19個縣市已經開始有開徵地方稅……"],["郭委員國文：開徵了多少新的稅基？"],["李次長慶華：總共大概有22個課稅項目。"],["郭委員國文：新開徵的有22個稅基，19個縣市……"],["李次長慶華：那是從施行到現在，但是中間有一些縣市已經施行屆滿，它就停徵了……"],["郭委員國文：但是有一些同質性很高的啊！"],["李次長慶華：如果是到112年度為止的話，總共對地方財源大概貢獻了180億元左右。"],["郭委員國文：總共才180億，你覺得這個有助於解決這些地方財政的問題嗎？"],["李次長慶華：基本上是有一些幫助的，但是到目前為止，剩下14個縣市還在課徵。"],["郭委員國文：你累積了十幾年180億，1年也不過增加十幾億，二十幾個縣市增加起來連1億都不到，你覺得真的有那麼大的幫助嗎？"],["李次長慶華：其實我覺得對有開徵的這些縣市應該是有幫助的。"],["郭委員國文：而且在22個品項當中還有很多雷同的地方，就是本席所列出累積的這個部分，你的數字可能比較新，我現在算起來大概是169億。"],["李次長慶華：這是到目前為止還在進行的。"],["郭委員國文：夯不啷噹加起來，花蓮縣政府就占了大概八十幾億去了，南投縣政府就辦了三十幾億，這兩個縣市政府就已經超過100億，其他的就微不足道嘛，甚至連1億都不到，對不對？你覺得這個對地方政府來說，它的財政能力真的有提升嗎？"],["李次長慶華：不過因為地方稅法通則的課徵還是有受到一些限制，就是……"],["郭委員國文：對，問題就是在這個限制當中，當初是不是限制得過多才導致這樣的結果？如果我們要去談所謂地方財政的能力問題的話，就不應該只放在整個中央統籌分配的概念來進行，也應該賦予地方比較大的權力跟空間嘛，不是嗎？"],["李次長慶華：是，其實……"],["郭委員國文：可是我們要賦予地方權力比較大的空間的情況下，你又在地方稅法通則給它匡列這麼多。"],["李次長慶華：可是報告委員，因為這個地方稅法通則開徵，主要是各縣市在課徵。"],["郭委員國文：我就問你嘛，本席就直接請教你一件事情，就地方稅法通則來增加地方政府財政能力的情況下，還有沒有檢討修法的空間？因為大家都放在財政收支劃分法上。"],["李次長慶華：其實我們現在也是……"],["郭委員國文：你們有沒有思考過這個問題？已經通過這麼久才收到180億。"],["李次長慶華：其實稅收比較少的原因，就是剛才跟委員報告過，因為它限制了某些事項不得開徵。"],["郭委員國文：對嘛！也許限制過多，本席就是做這樣的提醒。"],["李次長慶華：對，但是……"],["郭委員國文：如果今天所有的委員，不管是在野黨或執政黨，他這麼關心整個地方財政的問題的話，我們應該從不同法案的類別來做一個比較通盤性的檢討，提出一些思考的可能性，看能不能提升地方政府的財政能力，而不只是著眼在所謂的統籌分配或中央的垂直分配而已，不是嗎？"],["李次長慶華：是，我們現在其實也參考各個委員的提案建議，對於目前中央立法的一些地方稅，包含像……"],["郭委員國文：所以本席就是這樣建議你嘛！"],["李次長慶華：對，我們會……"],["郭委員國文：是不是可以從公債法、財劃法，還有地方稅法通則，就是從不同法的面向來思考如何提升地方的財政能力，可不可以？"],["李次長慶華：是，會通盤來檢討。"],["郭委員國文：因為你是稅法專家，可不可以從這樣的方向來做思考？"],["李次長慶華：會，目前我們在其他的地方稅制上面也會做一些檢討。"],["郭委員國文：如果好的話，你大概多久時間要給本席一個答案，1個月可不可以？"],["李次長慶華：因為目前涉及到地方稅的可能……"],["郭委員國文：沒有，就是大方向啦，我不是說實質的法案內容，你不用那麼小心啦！"],["李次長慶華：是，委員可不可以給我們比較久一點的時間，兩個月可以嗎？"],["郭委員國文：好，兩個月。","就今天個案條文第四條的修正案當中，其實某個程度30%的部分是這樣，但真正的爭點不是在於中央政府所規範的地方稅，而是地方新增的稅基內容是不是要匡列30%的限制，看起來你都沒有意見啊，今天還有什麼討論的空間？"],["李次長慶華：目前是沒有限制。"],["郭委員國文：如果是這30%的部分的話，有沒有需要匡列，我是覺得你在地方稅法通則都已經匡列了，老實講你再匡列那個比例上的稅率，基本上也沒有太大的幫助跟意義了，對不對？是不是這樣子？"],["李次長慶華：因為今天的修法其實並不會增加地方的稅收，主要還是讓原來的立法精神明確化而已。"],["郭委員國文：我其實是談到中央跟地方的分際問題，倒不是增加稅收的問題，而是談到體制問題，是單一體制還是聯邦體制的問題，基本上你如果認為沒有違反到單一體制的話，那就OK。","再拉回來講，上個禮拜我在經濟委員會的時候，你有特別針對經濟委員會的加薪抵稅條款來進行背書，就是認為這個法案是正確的，可是問題是稅差損也不過不到1億，次長，你這樣背書，我就發現這個版本根本不是經濟部訂定的，簡直是你財政部訂定的。"],["李次長慶華：沒有啦，我們是配合經濟部一起訂定的。"],["郭委員國文：你有自我設限嗎？那你應該跟經濟部講啊，怎麼只有150%而已，能不能提高，這個真的能夠達到它的政策目標嗎？本席真的強烈懷疑耶！它是出自於財政部嗎？"],["李次長慶華：不是，跟委員報告，為什麼中小企業發展條例的減稅措施實施以來，基本上稅損都不是太大？主要的原因當然也跟中小企業本身……"],["郭委員國文：根本都沒有發揮實質的效果，當然沒有稅損的問題啊！"],["李次長慶華：也是跟中小企業本身的特質有關係，因為我們的中小企業很多，它是獨資合夥的企業，根本不用繳稅。"],["郭委員國文：對，就是特質的問題，你還提到可能會有勞保的問題，以及其他社會保險的給付問題。"],["李次長慶華：對，因為我們這邊薪資提高以後，他們也會增加相關的健勞保成本啦。"],["郭委員國文：對，你在媒體上有提到，所以嘛！你們如果說整體的政策目標不站在本位思考，你說應該要達到勞工加薪的效果，你是不是要提韓國的一些例子來做直接的補助呀，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：當然如果……"],["郭委員國文：你不是用稅的角度來做思考嘛，不然就是這樣呀！"],["李次長慶華：對，有一些委員也提到，因為租稅畢竟不是唯一的工具啦！"],["郭委員國文：對，你就應該講出來才對嘛！不然的話，即便修了這個條款，我老實講啦！對整個薪資問題……"],["李次長慶華：可能適用的家數也不是很多。"],["郭委員國文：也非常有限，對不對？那你就老實講啊！"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["郭委員國文：他估計起來不過是七千多家而已啊，那個真的非常有限，九牛之一毫米啊，我跟你講！"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["郭委員國文：最後問一下部長……次長一個問題，我把你升官了，抱歉，我覺得你回答有部長之風啦！"],["李次長慶華：謝謝。"],["郭委員國文：我跟你就教一個問題，現在大家都很關心海外資金的暴險，但問題是整個資金有一個大挪移的現象，整個國銀的暴險部分從原來的中國移到哪裡？移到美國、移到日本、移到東南亞，你們有沒有掌握現在的狀況？"],["李次長慶華：有，確實有掌握。"],["郭委員國文：但是就本席所理解的，有些暴險的狀況是投資的部分減少，但是放款的部分增加，詳細狀況是如何？你回答一下本席現在的狀況、趨勢是怎麼樣？"],["李次長慶華：目前我們看到之所以會有暴險，當然一方面就是剛剛委員講的投資增加；另外一方面就是真正會產生問題的，像我們很多都是連貸案，就是給國外的一些融資……"],["郭委員國文：現在中國國銀裡頭到底還放了多少錢？"],["李次長慶華：中國目前還有多少錢……"],["郭委員國文：中國那邊呀，我沒有跟你講「大陸」，我是跟你講「中國」。"],["李次長慶華：是！委員可不可以等我們一下，好嗎？我請國庫署查一下，看看我們現在那個暴險的金額還剩多少。"],["郭委員國文：對啊，要講一下嘛！然後你到日本跟美國的投資大概增加多少？這整個國銀就是一個指標啊。"],["李次長慶華：委員我們可不可以會後再提供詳細的資料給您？"],["郭委員國文：好，你會後給我一份，還有包括東南亞的部分。"],["李次長慶華：好，還有東南亞的部分。"],["郭委員國文：最主要的內容給本席，謝謝次長。"],["李次長慶華：好，我們會後再提供，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位質詢請賴惠員賴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1","speakers":["羅明才","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳玉珍","張智倫","王世堅","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","許宇甄","李柏毅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」\n等2案","agenda_id":"1134101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":2.10659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":2.9672187500000002,"end":3.76034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.814718750000001,"end":7.337843750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.87784375,"end":56.51159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.52596875,"end":18.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":40.64909375,"end":41.391593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":56.51159375,"end":57.119093750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":57.25409375,"end":66.43409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.48471875,"end":77.38596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.30159375000001,"end":77.99346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.63909375,"end":91.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":91.37534375,"end":109.36409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":103.71096875,"end":105.34784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":108.68909375000001,"end":112.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":111.33846875,"end":127.18409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":115.55721875,"end":117.49784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.47659375,"end":118.71284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":119.69159375000001,"end":119.84346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.88034375000001,"end":131.89221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":127.89284375000001,"end":138.84471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.02221875,"end":146.77596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":146.25284375,"end":150.62346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":149.03721875000002,"end":173.57346875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":159.28034375000001,"end":161.74409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":164.30909375000002,"end":164.73096875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":172.91534375,"end":173.47221875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.74221875,"end":179.29409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":173.87721875,"end":173.89409375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":179.88471875000002,"end":185.16659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":184.71096875,"end":189.95909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":190.51596875,"end":216.08159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":208.53846875000002,"end":208.92659375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":216.33471875,"end":221.51534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":219.60846875000001,"end":239.21721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":222.19034375,"end":222.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":233.49659375000002,"end":234.28971875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":239.21721875000003,"end":250.47284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":247.18221875,"end":271.31346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":251.09721875000002,"end":252.34596875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":271.39784375,"end":282.43409375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":275.09346875,"end":275.29596875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":279.36284375,"end":292.47471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":291.37784375,"end":293.82471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":292.74471875,"end":293.13284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":293.36909375,"end":297.46971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":296.55846875000003,"end":300.57471875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":299.68034375,"end":304.03409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":303.39284375,"end":304.11846875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":304.89471875000004,"end":309.36659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":308.43846875,"end":312.84284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":310.02471875000003,"end":310.63221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":311.52659375,"end":317.04471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":315.79596875000004,"end":337.12596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":333.46409375,"end":336.16409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":337.61534375,"end":352.04346875000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":351.94221875,"end":361.45971875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":360.19409375000004,"end":388.35846875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":377.89596875,"end":378.67221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":381.60846875000004,"end":381.92909375000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.05034375,"end":389.65784375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":389.89409375,"end":395.66534375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.69909375000003,"end":395.78346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":395.78346875,"end":395.93534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":395.93534375,"end":399.96846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":396.82971875000004,"end":397.90971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":400.50846875,"end":405.84096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":406.33034375000005,"end":419.23971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":407.20784375000005,"end":408.77721875000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start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地方的稅收它主要還是只是在做一個就是原來立法精神的明確化而已"},{"start":360.93,"end":387.81,"text":"我其實是談到中央跟地方的分基問題倒不是增加稅收的問題倒是談到這個體制的問題單一體制還是聯邦體制的問題啊那基本上你如果認為沒有違反到單一體制的話那就OK嘛那再拉回來講喔上個禮拜我在經濟委員會的時候你有特別對經濟委員會的這一個加薪抵稅條款來進行背書啦就是認為他這個法案是正確的可是問題是稅差損也不過不到一億欸"},{"start":389.131,"end":405.573,"text":"市長,你這樣背書我就發現這個版本根本不是經濟部訂的,簡直是你財政部訂的嘛。沒有啦,我們是配合經濟部訂的。你有自我設限嗎?那你應該跟經濟部講啊。怎麼只有才有150%而已能不能提高,這能夠真的達到他的政策目標嗎?本席真的強烈懷疑耶。"},{"start":406.354,"end":419.005,"text":"不是,跟委員報告,因為其實為什麼我們中小企業發展條例這個減稅的措施實施以來基本上稅損都不是太大,主要的原因當然也跟中小企業本身"},{"start":422.108,"end":423.109,"text":"議員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等22人分別擬具"},{"start":448.109,"end":463.378,"text":"對不對?不是說你不是用稅的角度來做思考嗎?要怎麼做是這樣啊?對,有一些人也提到就是說因為租稅畢竟不是一個最唯一的工具啦,唯一的工具對,是。不然的話這個真的老實講即便求了這一個條款啦,我老實講啦"},{"start":464.358,"end":465.579,"text":"最後問一下部長"},{"start":479.31,"end":500.246,"text":"市長有一個問題,我剛剛回答得有部長之風。我跟周市長有一個問題,現在海外的資金的曝顯大家都很關心,但是問題是在整個資金有一個大挪移的現象。整個國營的這個曝顯的部分呢,它從原來的中國移到哪裡?移到美國、移到日本、移到東南亞。你們現在的狀況有沒有進行掌握?"},{"start":501.082,"end":530.26,"text":"有確實有掌握那有掌握的部分呢但是就本席所理解的有些曝險的狀況是投資的部分減少但是販款的部分的增加您的民心狀況是如何您現在回答一下本席現在狀況趨勢是怎麼樣目前我們是看到之所以會有曝險當然一方面就是剛才委員講的投資的增加那另外一方面就是真正會產生問題的像我們很多都是連帶案就是給那些國外的一些融資中國現在到底國營裡頭現在到底還放了多少錢"},{"start":530.7,"end":556.222,"text":"中國目前還有多少錢?中國那邊我沒有跟你講大陸我是跟你講中國委員可不可以讓我們等一下我請國庫署查一下看看我們現在那個負險的金還剩多少對啊要講一下嘛然後你到日本跟美國的投資到底增加多少這個整個國營就是一個指標啊還是委員我們可不可以就是會後再提供詳細的資料給你還有包括東南亞的部分主要的內容給本席謝謝市長謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152180","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152180","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a6871f2dbad97188e14993287635c0a127bd65503e05c7869ec8ad6648bb28df2475ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"09:40:25 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bicy 8 我也不突襲我就排了一個去刑事局參訪這個是整個的過程所以我想說我這提出來另外條文不討論不是特例我覺得以前民進黨之前都很多都不討論那如果大家忘了大家忘了沒關係我再找各位以前的例子來給大家看找資料看條文我很行所以我可以找給大家看"},{"start":203.815,"end":224.296,"text":"另外就是最後我講一個有關這個去中國什麼報備這個我個人是覺得我們要考量的一個點不是說不行而是憲法第十條人民有遷徙的自由那我們今天對於自由去限制是法律保留是沒有問題但是呢"},{"start":225.057,"end":252.431,"text":"但是呢我覺得任何東西他要考量到你的手段的正當性以及比例原則那比例原則第一個要討論的就是你是不是有達成目的那你有沒有其他能夠更輕微的手段可以達成那我現在跟各位報告如果你今天總覺得說去大陸就要洩密就要幹什麼現在的通訊軟體不是不能做到你可以約在第三國不是不能做到所以我們不是不能提這個法案啦"},{"start":253.211,"end":260.867,"text":"而是說你提出來之前你的論述你的講法是不是更周全會比較好一點讓大家能夠幸福一點好謝謝各位"}]}},{"id":"152179","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152179","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a68222b7a7bebf77cb5993287635c0a127bd65503e05c7869ece040c9255cff6fc05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯建銘","委員發言時間":"09:37:19 - 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我跟你很清楚喔 土地他人是5到15年了 所以大家很小心那今天我們要把這個規範規範清楚 因為所謂的開公路費"},{"start":124.998,"end":142.137,"text":"這個法坦白講很簡單,所有人在開公路也可以,從來沒有說不做可能不開公路可以。他們今天就要反對這個法能夠做審查嘛,因為很多判例不分其利益衝突的部分。所以司法長是心路人皆知嘛。民進黨,"},{"start":143.538,"end":166.032,"text":"整個國會改革的重要的是職業行使法。你們那個職業行使法只有一天就強納出委員會,會牽斷陣。整個民主破壞,這才是最要命的事情。整個臺灣民主已經走向香港化的時候,你們連這種一來行為法,一直規則都想擋。我一直覺得你那傻笑沒有用,常常擋車嘛。整個和民主潮流違反的。"},{"start":167.032,"end":175.738,"text":"有一天民意會很撲的,你放心啦好不好,你不會以為你那膨脹加起來可以轉動台灣,控制台灣,沒有那回事的。"}]}},{"id":"152178","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152178","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a684613b6ff100305ee84bf63cf92ad2af6d65503e05c7869ec87561c4690c68a315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:26:20 - 09:37:27","影片長度":"00:11:07","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」等2案。\n【5月6日及8日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1"},"duration":667,"end_time":"2024-05-06T09:37:27+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T09:26:20+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":105,"blocks":[["賴委員士葆：（9時26分）謝謝主席及各位先進。有請財政部的李次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員早安。"],["賴委員士葆：你早。就今天的提案，財政部的具體看法為何？你們是沒有意見，還是支持？"],["李次長慶華：是，我們尊重委員會的審查結果，因為……"],["賴委員士葆：你覺得我們的提案合理吧？"],["李次長慶華：是，因為它是跟原來地方稅法通則第四條的立法意旨是相符的。"],["賴委員士葆：對嘛！當初我記得最早有一個立委叫廖學廣，他提出一個鎮長稅，引起全國的軒然大波，後來呢？說要讓地方政府、地方首長，他手上能夠有一點權力，地方議會、地方政府自己決定，所以才有一個稅法通則，它背景是這樣來的，因為我們原來的法令就定了，好像地方稅最多就是30%，可是事實上有些稅目是你們沒有想到的，所以我的案子，就是你沒有提到的地方稅，地方政府、議會覺得有必要，他們自己立，上限多少由自己規範，可以嘛？"],["李次長慶華：對，因為我們現在地方稅法通則第三條就是這個意思……"],["賴委員士葆：就這個意思嘛！"],["李次長慶華：就是除了不能開徵的那四項規定之外……"],["賴委員士葆：就是這個意思啦，只是沒有寫清楚，我把它寫清楚。好，我們來看第二題，你剛才回答吳委員的對話，我就覺得連續兩年……","請問你，去年的營所稅多少？"],["李次長慶華：去年的營所稅1兆多少……"],["賴委員士葆：超過1兆！"],["李次長慶華：是，超過1兆。"],["賴委員士葆：前年多少？也超過1兆！"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["賴委員士葆：每年都超過1兆，今年把它編一個9,000億？今年的經濟成長率還要變成3%以上，比去年更好，所以今年的GDP比去年好，結果你們財政部是怎樣啦？同一位部長卻退縮了，連續兩年就超過1兆，結果你們114年就編列9,000億？很奇怪！"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，因為我們所得稅是落後徵收，所以像我們113年估測依據的經濟成長率是112年的經濟成長率，所以只有1.31%而已，而且從去年開始，我們就發現產業確實是因為它的庫存很多，它去化庫存……"],["賴委員士葆：這樣太少了！我跟你講了半天，這絕對是太少了，你們每次都低估，到時候「花哩囉」！"],["李次長慶華：委員，我們已經儘量覈實了。"],["賴委員士葆：覈實就要編1兆以上，連續兩年都1兆以上，明年編得……","好啦！不跟你扯這個。來，我要跟你講統籌分配稅款，現在統籌分配稅款，你們訂了嘛！今年編4,000億，一般補助款2,300億或者2,500億，對吧？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["賴委員士葆：是嘛！所以加起來就是6,500億，占你們中央的25%，也就是四分之一給地方政府而已。我們現在的社會氛圍，大家都說這個地方政府手頭很緊，現在中央集權又集錢，錢在你手上，都看你臉色，看你今天心情好就多給一點，心情不好就少給一點。我們在法律上把這個財政收支劃分法調整一下，好多委員有十幾個版本都說要修啊！各縣市選出來的立委，大家立場可能不一樣，我臺北市選出來的，我當然要看臺北市啊！我家裡是……我從臺中出來的，我會關心臺中市啊！可是其他的委員，臺南的他關心臺南，這是水平分配。","至於垂直分配，你先撥一塊肉出來吧！你很清楚，你們以前的長官李述德任內，他就撥了962億要給地方政府，還擺不平。請問這次來講的話，你們可以割多少給地方政府？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，財劃法的修正，基本上，因為它涉及到的問題相當地多，當然有垂直分配跟水平分配的問題，目前我們是在通盤檢視近年中央、地方政府財經的情勢變化，我們希望還是能夠適度維持我們中央財政的韌性，因為畢竟中央很多的支出……"],["賴委員士葆：我有提案啦！我的提案是3,000億，有人提案6,000億啦！我算了，加10%就是2,600億，加20%就是5,200億，你覺得放中間可以嗎？"],["李次長慶華：不過委員這個部分……"],["賴委員士葆：先做垂直分配，水平再說。垂直、垂直，你可以撥多少給地方嘛？就這樣子。"],["李次長慶華：委員，如果我們優先處理這個垂直分配的話，可能就會擴大中央統籌分配稅款的規模，當然就會變成，可能直轄市獲配的金額反而會大幅地增加。會不會因為這樣子而拉到直轄市跟縣市財政的差距？所以這部分我覺得我們在修法還是要兼顧垂直跟水平。"],["賴委員士葆：你講到的是水平分配，我講的是中央你心目中可以刮多少肉給地方政府啦！"],["李次長慶華：委員，我想因為這個涉及到整個地方政府財政的分配，所以我們目前也很積極……"],["賴委員士葆：你不要給我扯水平……"],["李次長慶華：很積極要求地方政府。"],["賴委員士葆：你不割下來地方就沒有，每個地方政府都要錢啊！不管是藍執政、綠執政都要錢啊！"],["李次長慶華：對，基本上這個部分還是要做比較審慎的評估。"],["賴委員士葆：我已經問第二次了，第一次問部長沒有答案，第二次問你，你是財……照理講你也可以當部長了。當那麼久的次長，你是管稅的次長啊！"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["賴委員士葆：你總是知道……莊部長還可以說他管地的，他對這個不瞭解，你很瞭解啊！以我的提案來講，挖3,000億給地方，「好勢、好勢」，輕而易舉，一點都沒有負擔，對你們來講，3,000億。有人講要6,000億，我的版本是3,000億，很客氣了，可以嗎？"],["李次長慶華：我們尊重委員的提案，因為各個委員都有不同的版本，到時候可能要做充分地討論。"],["賴委員士葆：其他委員客氣的提1,000億，有的6,000億，我是很客氣的3,000億，是很克制的。"],["李次長慶華：是，謝謝。"],["賴委員士葆：我們看到5月的現在開始報稅了，請問一下，網路報稅比例多少？"],["李次長慶華：九十八點多吧！大概快將將近99%了。"],["賴委員士葆：手機報稅多少？"],["李次長慶華：手機報稅目前到今天……去年大概是三成左右，但是我們從5月1號到今天5月5號為止，占幅大概在50%左右，就目前已經申報的部分。"],["賴委員士葆：未來你的目標，希望全部都可以手機報稅嗎？"],["李次長慶華：我們當然是希望大家都用手機報，但是我們並不預期會百分之百，因為還是有很多民眾不習慣用手機，因為畢竟螢幕比較小，可能大家還是會用電腦、平板來申報，所以我們是覺得，可能手機報稅的比重，未來希望能夠占到三成左右。"],["賴委員士葆：你們現在是不是標扣都可以……比如說張三、李四，你都可以告訴他，你就是繳多少稅，你替他試算好了。"],["李次長慶華：是，目前我們今年最新的作法，就是在我們的線上版還有就是手機版上，都可以看到一個所謂查調資料的稅額估算表。那個估算表你點進去……"],["賴委員士葆：特別扣除額的……"],["李次長慶華：特別扣除額也包含在裡面，還有列舉扣除額也可以包含在裡面，我們可以蒐集到的資料，我們都會幫你設算。"],["賴委員士葆：這個不錯！但是我們就擔心，你做了這麼多，詐騙集團會不會來take advantage（利用），你這裡這麼方便，手機可以報稅，橫切一刀告訴他，什麼時候可以退稅、退多少錢給他，開始獲取他的個資？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，我們這個資料有一個非常嚴密的資安管控，基本上，這個網站別人的系統是進不來的，而且我們是一個單獨的資安系統。"],["賴委員士葆：因為我的時間到了，你告訴我們，如果退稅，你們什麼時候才通知？"],["李次長慶華：退稅我們是有分三批，第一批退稅在7月底，最大批的退稅在7月底。"],["賴委員士葆：所以在這個之前告訴大家退稅都假的。"],["李次長慶華：對，都是假的。"],["賴委員士葆：第二批什麼時候？"],["李次長慶華：第二批是10月底。"],["賴委員士葆：10月底。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["賴委員士葆：第三批呢？"],["李次長慶華：第三批是明年1月。"],["賴委員士葆：好。最後一個小問題請教你，我們現在很多的網紅平台，YT、FB、IG、Podcast，都是國外的公司，網紅如果分潤了，那屬於境外所得，還是境內所得？"],["李次長慶華：這個部分，當然我們要看……"],["賴委員士葆：請問你，是境外所得，還是境內所得？"],["李次長慶華：這要看這個網紅平台的交易跟我們臺灣的市場有沒有連結……"],["賴委員士葆：我跟你講，就是YT（YouTube）、FB、IG，國外的啊！"],["李次長慶華：他如果是跟國內的市場交易產生了獲利的話，當然是中華民國的來源所得。"],["賴委員士葆：什麼意思？再具體一點。"],["李次長慶華：譬如這個平台做廣告，這個廣告主要都是在臺灣刊登或者是跟我們國內的企業或公司結合來進行的話，這個廣告的收入就是中華民國來源所得，如果是境外的廣告，當然就不是我們臺灣的來源所得。"],["賴委員士葆：那這個是境外所得？"],["李次長慶華：如果純粹是境外公司的話……"],["賴委員士葆：這個你勾稽得到嗎？你查得到嗎？譬如我們的郭委員開一個節目，他是網紅，全世界都在看，不是只有臺灣看，全世界都在看啊！"],["李次長慶華：如果它是在臺灣設立的平台，然後他的收入來源都是因為他在境內從事網紅的行為所收取的報酬的話，這個當然就是中華民國境內的來源所得。"],["賴委員士葆：所以即便是國外的人看、給他錢，一樣……"],["李次長慶華：是、是、是，因為你就是境內的交易行為產生的收入。"],["賴委員士葆：好啦！這樣瞭解了，謝謝。"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。下一位質詢請郭國文召委。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1","speakers":["羅明才","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳玉珍","張智倫","王世堅","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","許宇甄","李柏毅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」\n等2案","agenda_id":"1134101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.042843750000001,"end":6.61221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.101593750000001,"end":8.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.21096875,"end":9.919718750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.31159375,"end":13.83471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.222843750000003,"end":14.610968750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.04971875,"end":17.63159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.95221875,"end":22.69409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":21.78284375,"end":32.49846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":25.63034375,"end":26.727218750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":27.63846875,"end":28.16159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.49846875,"end":35.63721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.97471875,"end":38.08409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.84346875,"end":40.58159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.492843750000006,"end":44.09159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.49659375,"end":47.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":48.259718750000005,"end":48.985343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":49.44096875,"end":50.149718750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.453468750000006,"end":53.81159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.149093750000006,"end":55.49909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.32596875,"end":58.604093750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.94159375,"end":60.156593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":60.814718750000004,"end":61.641593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.70909375,"end":64.49346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":65.28659375000001,"end":68.93159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.30284375000001,"end":70.11284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.63596875,"end":72.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":72.52596875,"end":74.78721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.49596875,"end":75.78284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":75.90096875,"end":76.55909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":77.87534375,"end":79.42784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.10284375,"end":80.79471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":80.99721875,"end":84.16971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":84.87846875000001,"end":86.36346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.83596875,"end":86.85284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":86.85284375,"end":86.86971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.86971875,"end":87.29159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.29159375,"end":87.39284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":87.39284375000001,"end":87.42659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.42659375000001,"end":87.47721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":87.73034375,"end":95.12159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":89.56971875,"end":90.16034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":91.35846875,"end":92.48909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":95.12159375,"end":98.76659375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":95.15534375,"end":95.45909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.10409375,"end":100.80846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":105.38159375000001,"end":108.62159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":109.54971875000001,"end":110.93346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.70971875000001,"end":113.17784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":114.30846875,"end":115.64159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":116.97471875000001,"end":120.88971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":118.79721875000001,"end":12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你很清楚啊!"},{"start":274.803,"end":279.107,"text":"你們以前的長官李肅德任內他就撥了962億給地方政府 他就撥了962億給地方政府還擺不平!"},{"start":279.107,"end":282.27,"text":"還擺不平!請問 這一次來講的話 你們可以割多少給地方政府?"},{"start":282.27,"end":285.534,"text":"請問 這一次來講的話 你們可以割多少給地方政府?"},{"start":286.516,"end":286.896,"text":"我提案啊!是"},{"start":311.548,"end":314.51,"text":"如果是我們優先處理這個垂直分配的話可能就是會擴大這個中央統籌分配稅款的規模"},{"start":340.106,"end":360.685,"text":"那當然就會變成說可能直轄市貨配的金額反而會大幅的增加那會不會是因為這樣子而拉到直轄市跟縣市財政的差距所以這部分我覺得我們在修法還是要兼顧這個你那個講到水平了我講說中央你心目中可以刮多少肉給地方政府啦"},{"start":361.225,"end":376.357,"text":"委員這個我想因為這個涉及到整個地方政府財政的分配所以我們目前也很積極要求地方政府你不割下來地方就沒有啊每個地方政府都是要錢啊不管是藍執政綠執政都要錢啊"},{"start":377.398,"end":383.662,"text":"我已經第二次,第一次問部長有沒有答案第二次問你,你是財﹑照你講你也可以當部長的當那麼久了,這個次長你是稅的,管稅的次長啊你總知道"},{"start":398.148,"end":399.028,"text":"我們尊重委員的提案啦"},{"start":425.427,"end":442.167,"text":"因為各個委員都有不同的版本,到時候可能要做充分的討論。其他委員科技也都一千億,有的六千億,我是很科技的,三千億也科資的。我們看到五月份現在開始報稅了,請問現在網路報稅比例多少?"},{"start":446.93,"end":465.567,"text":"98點多吧,大概快將近99%了。手機報稅多少?手機報稅目前到今天,去年大概是百分之三成左右,但是我們5月,從5月1號到今天5月5號為止,大概戰服大概百分之50左右。"},{"start":466.565,"end":489.612,"text":"未來你的目標希望全部都可以手機報稅嗎?當然是希望大家都用手機報稅但是我們並不預期會百分之百因為還是有很多的民眾他不習慣用手機因為他畢竟螢幕比較小那可能大家還是會用這個電腦或平板來申報所以我們是覺得可能手機報稅的比重未來希望能夠佔到三成左右"},{"start":489.872,"end":496.234,"text":"目前我們今年最新的做法就是在我們的這個現象版還有就是手機版上面都可以看到一個所謂的查調資料的稅額估算表"},{"start":508.757,"end":509.337,"text":"賴士葆賴士葆"},{"start":525.743,"end":525.783,"text":"賴士葆"},{"start":556.973,"end":562.869,"text":"這個如果退稅什麼時候你們再通知?退稅我們是有分3批,第一批退稅在7月底。"},{"start":564.068,"end":572.033,"text":"現在很多的網紅平台都是YT、FB、IG、Podcast都是國外的公司欸那他分論了網紅的分論了這屬於境外所得還是境內所得"},{"start":592.273,"end":592.934,"text":"議員賴士葆"},{"start":611.809,"end":612.87,"text":"什麽意思?再具體一點。"},{"start":627.026,"end":643.283,"text":"那如果是境外的廣告那當然就不是我們台灣的來源所得那這個是境外所得?如果是純粹是境外公司的話你查得到嗎?你現在看比如說我們的郭委員他開一個節目他網紅他全世界看到的不是只有台灣看嗎?"},{"start":644.918,"end":666.791,"text":"對,如果他是在台灣設立的平台,然後他的收入來源的話,都是因為他在境內從事這個網紅的行為所收取的報酬的話,這個當然就是中華民國境內的來源。所以即便是國外的人看給他錢一樣。是是是,因為你就是境內的交易行為產生的收入。對,是,謝謝委員。"}]}},{"id":"152177","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152177","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a68cd2686a0b7bf6e41310b11d8215eda9ed65503e05c7869ecc78416d463be3f225ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳昭姿","委員發言時間":"09:31:04 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for performance然後以結果以治療的結果為導向的包括幾副Occam based bundle payment"},{"start":308.857,"end":337.359,"text":"我覺得健保署應該用獎勵的方式來鼓勵各個醫療機構提出更可行而且可受公平的透明化的醫療品質方案我們用品質來爭取合理的給付這個是在我們把點值提高的這個論量計的方式說一個很重要的配套措施好那麼結論是本黨還有我個人都非常支持醫療點值要受到保障但是我們也要求有以下的配套措施其中有4點第一個"},{"start":339.4,"end":339.54,"text":"主席主席"},{"start":369.195,"end":369.56,"text":"陳昭姿委員"}]}},{"id":"152176","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152176","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a6880bc298d71e04d7d993287635c0a127bd65503e05c7869eca6b46b472f9b5d055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"傅崐萁","委員發言時間":"09:33:49 - 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賴瑞隆委員的版本加起來不過16個條文時間在今天一整天絕對可以充分的討論只要我們能夠進入主條, 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09:26:05","影片長度":"00:08:32","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」等2案。\n【5月6日及8日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1"},"duration":512,"end_time":"2024-05-06T09:26:05+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T09:17:33+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":55,"blocks":[["吳委員秉叡：（9時17分）主席，麻煩請財政部李次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員早安。"],["吳委員秉叡：次長早。現在5月是報稅季，今年實施不少新制度，包括成年的年紀現在是18歲，從20歲下降。另外一個大家比較陌生的是受控外國企業（CFC），受我們臺灣人控制的外國企業的繳稅問題。受控外國企業（CFC）要繳稅，財政部在其繳稅之前，因為已經預告今年開始要課了，從去年1月1號實施、今年要課，之前有沒有跟這些CFC擁有者宣導？他們知不知道今年得要這樣子繳稅呢？"],["李次長慶華：有，其實我們從前年報經行政院核定說從112年度開始實施受控外國企業公司法，那個所得稅制要開始了，包含賦稅署還有各地區的國稅局就一直持續在做宣導，宣導的方式包含發布新聞稿做相關的說明，但是最重要的是我們跟所有的會計師公會、記帳士公會還有報稅代理人公會，逐一地去跟公會做詳細的說明，如果企業這方面他們有需求，希望我們能夠對他們一對一輔導的話，我們各地區國稅局也都是派員親自去做相關的輔導。"],["吳委員秉叡：請問這一個新的制度會影響到多少人？然後你估計這可以課到多少稅收呢？"],["李次長慶華：目前我們預估，就是從上市櫃公司的統計資料來看的話，大概會有七成左右的企業，也就是將近1,245家，包含上市櫃企業，因為他們可能都有對外投資的行為，這些企業可能會受到我們CFC稅制的影響，有關稅收的統計，因為近幾年我們其實沒有實際上的統計，但是我們在103年當時有委託過學者研究，估計每年平均國外的盈餘大概有1,295億元，可能影響的稅收大概是55億元，但是因為這幾年其實……"],["吳委員秉叡：這麼少嗎？"],["李次長慶華：是，因為我們有很多，除了這個CFC，它不是你所有每一塊盈餘都要課稅，它基本上還有一些豁免條款，譬如你雖然是在低稅負地區投資，但是你如果在低稅負地區有實質的營運活動，或者是說你即使有獲利，但是因為我們還有一個免稅的門檻，也就是開始課徵的門檻，目前是700萬元，要超過這個額度才會納入CFC課稅的範圍。"],["吳委員秉叡：或是譬如說他設在新加坡，因為新加坡跟我們有租稅協定，所以他在新加坡繳的稅在臺灣可以……"],["李次長慶華：也可以拿回來扣抵，對，而且他在國外繳納的稅額，確實也是可以拿回來扣抵的。"],["吳委員秉叡：好，如果是這樣的話，因為112年度的營利事業所得稅是收到九千多億，然後個人綜合所得稅的部分是收到五千多億，所以去年實收數比預算數多很多，原因主要是這些都有滿大的gap啦！"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：今年你認為呢？你估計今年會不會也這樣子呢？"],["李次長慶華：我們今年在預計預算數的時候，包含我們的營所稅、綜所稅，還有各個稅目，其實我們都已經有採用比較新的估測方式，而且參考了這些上市櫃公司實際上的獲利狀況，還有營運的狀況，因此我們預估在營所稅的方面，到目前為止，我們是覺得跟我們的估測數應該是差不多的，因為去年……"],["吳委員秉叡：你們估多少？"],["李次長慶華：我們今年的預算數，營所稅是估九千多億，但是因為我們已經是覈實估列，所以我們是覺得今年稅收最後實徵的數字，應該是跟我們的預算數差不多，那今年唯一比較……"],["吳委員秉叡：我們要不要打賭？"],["李次長慶華：我覺得我們今年唯一比較沒有把握的是證交稅。"],["吳委員秉叡：不是啦！光是營所稅我就可以跟你打賭了，因為我跟你說，我們財政部的同仁其實並不是惡意啦！但是他們都做比較保守的估計，這樣子達成率都可以超過百分之百。"],["李次長慶華：不會、不會，其實我們從去年開始，因為這兩年我們稅收多於預算，實徵數大於預算數的狀況確實是比較……"],["吳委員秉叡：我用一個比較參考的數字給你聽，我們臺灣的GDP就算是去年成長比較少，也有一點多趴。"],["李次長慶華：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：那今年估計要三點多趴？"],["李次長慶華：對，3.43%。"],["吳委員秉叡：也就是說，臺灣這幾年從來沒有minus的，就是在原來的基礎上一直再疊加上去，所以我個人認為你們的估算可能還是偏保守啦！"],["李次長慶華：跟委員報告，其實我們也看了今年最後那個……就是證交所最後公布的上市櫃公司今年財報跟前年的獲利，確實是減損了25.63%，我們去年已經有參考他們可能發生的實際獲利狀況，基本上我們是覺得營所稅的估算應該是趨於覈實，但是在證交稅方面，可能我們就比較沒有把握，為什麼？因為證交稅我們去年在估預算的時候是估3,500億的……"],["吳委員秉叡：成交總數，成交額是包括OTC，還有包括證交所這兩個。"],["李次長慶華：對，上市、上櫃都有，但是今年上市、上櫃公司從1到4月，到目前為止，它每月的成交值都已經超過了5,000億，所以我們覺得證交稅這部分，我們在估測方面可能會有點失準。"],["吳委員秉叡：我跟你說，以我的觀念，國家依法收稅，能夠有多收代表財政健全，然後可以做更多福國利民的事，包括各方面的開支，因為財政是庶政之母，這當然是好事，不是在苛求你們，我們只是要求說，如果你們能夠更精準一點的話，這是希望你們百尺竿頭、更進一步，你越精準，越不讓外界有見縫插針的機會，常有人在那邊拿錯誤的定義跟錯誤的名詞在這裡面給你做文章，搞得你焦頭爛額，讓整個社會更加的紛亂。我是認為其實一個國家的合理稅收，如果你們的估計能夠高達百分之百是最好，上下幾個百分點應該大家都是可以接受的。"],["李次長慶華：是，委員，其實……"],["吳委員秉叡：也不要超過太多，也不要少太多。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：像過去這兩、三年，其實都差很遠啦！"],["李次長慶華：是，可是跟委員覈實報告，因為過去這兩、三年，事實上很多經濟環境的變化，不是我們可以預測到的，所以真的也是因為這樣的關係、因為疫情的關係，我們也會在估算上面有點失準。但是我們從去年開始就成立稅收估測小組，部長也特別要求我們，今年度還是要繼續召開這個小組，然後聽取一些專家學者的意見，讓我們在估測114年度預算的時候能夠更精準。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為今年的7月開始就要編114年的預算了嘛！"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：115年的預算了嘛！"],["李次長慶華：114年。"],["吳委員秉叡：估114年的是稅收的？"],["李次長慶華：對。"],["吳委員秉叡：因為幸好你繼續當次長，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：是，謝謝委員。"],["吳委員秉叡：我也繼續在這邊，我們今天這個對話，大概半年多之後就可以驗證了，就知道到底有沒有像你講的這樣，如果能夠像你講的這樣當然是很好，如果還是繼續超過很多，那麼就代表你們在估計的時候……"],["李次長慶華：還有精進空間。"],["吳委員秉叡：要更加看好臺灣的經濟啦！"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["吳委員秉叡：現在全世界，臺灣的經濟真的是非常長紅、非常難得的現象，希望你們的估計值也能夠越來越精準。加油！"],["李次長慶華：會，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位質詢請賴士葆賴委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1","speakers":["羅明才","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳玉珍","張智倫","王世堅","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","許宇甄","李柏毅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」\n等2案","agenda_id":"1134101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.56096875,"end":12.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.855968750000002,"end":13.649093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":17.14221875,"end":18.660968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.43721875,"end":30.000968750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":27.992843750000002,"end":28.566593750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":28.75221875,"end":29.039093750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.08534375,"end":30.49034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":30.55784375,"end":32.447843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":32.768468750000004,"end":35.080343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":35.33346875,"end":41.03721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":41.77971875,"end":42.20159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":42.91034375,"end":62.282843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":54.267218750000005,"end":54.53721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":62.282843750000005,"end":62.299718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":62.299718750000004,"end"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召開三次公聽會民進黨再召開一兩次這有什麼困難嗎 這搞什麼困難"},{"start":103.824,"end":120.45,"text":"我們未來就是說如果在召開不管是我們的黨團協商也好或者未來我們的院長來召開協商的時候大家還有很多的機會就針對國民兩黨的版本大家都可以提出自己的看法跟意見"},{"start":122.07,"end":137.021,"text":"這個流程很清楚啊為什麼就是一定要在這個每次屢次的不斷的重複的排這樣的相同的一個不管是行為法的法案或者是立法院之間行使法的這個法案這重複的排我真的不曉得喔"},{"start":137.822,"end":140.863,"text":"我覺得我們還是務實的面對整個立法的過程。我想我們的這個國民黨絕對沒有所謂沒收我們討論這樣的一個情形的。"},{"start":160.112,"end":187.747,"text":"這個到了協商是可以講清楚說明白但是召開公聽會這件事情我覺得很重要針對民進黨的版本我們的專家學者的看法怎麼樣這個我想對未來這個我們進入協商的時候把民進黨的版本在協商的時候讓我們更了解然後大家一起來談也不是說不可能把你們的版本來納入我們未來協商成為一個我們最後定案的一個條文"},{"start":188.447,"end":192.297,"text":"不是不可能啦,所以大家不用這樣疊對疊在那邊,這個預設立場說一定不會把你們的條文納進來啦,以上謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152169","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152169","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a688cd2597c45ca530484bf63cf92ad2af6d65503e05c7869ec7cccb990385a62e45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林德福","委員發言時間":"09:07:29 - 09:17:25","影片長度":"00:09:56","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」等2案。\n【5月6日及8日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1"},"duration":596,"end_time":"2024-05-06T09:17:25+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T09:07:29+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":26,"blocks":[["林委員德福：（9時7分）謝謝主席。是不是請財政部李次長？"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員早安。"],["林委員德福：次長早。次長，我請教一下，主計總處的家庭財務分配統計指出，家庭財務的貧富差距，從民國80年的16.8倍，到110年已擴增到66.9倍。次長，30年貧富差距擴大，如果按照主計長所說的，未解決貧富差距，讓政府提升企業加薪意願改善，所得分配上，政府的責任大，那麼請問稅制改革推動這麼多年，為什麼貧富差距不但沒有縮小的跡象，反而變得越來越大？這到底是稅改不利還是根本就沒有辦法從根本上去縮小貧富差距？你的看法呢？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，其實在改善人民所得分配的效果上，我們財政部這幾年也是非常地努力，在稅制上面做了非常多優化稅制的措施，包含我們在106年，也就是107年實施所得稅制優化方案，這個優化方案將個人申報綜合所得稅的4項扣除額大幅度調高；另外，我們也在108年增訂長期照顧特別扣除額；而去年度也在財委會各位委員的支持之下，我們修正了幼兒學前特別扣除額，還有租金支出的扣除額，把它從列舉扣除額改訂為特別扣除額。其實這幾項修法都是站在改善民眾基本生活的立場上，希望對於這些中低所得者或是育兒家庭，能夠改善他們的所得狀況。"],["林委員德福：但是次長，事實上是剛剛好相反，你認為會不會是因為資本主義下，貧富差距變大根本就是不可逆，就是一定會這樣子？你認為呢？"],["李次長慶華：但是委員，我們只能講說，在財政部主管的稅制方面，我們還是持續在做相關的滾動調整。"],["林委員德福：但是持續一直擴大啊，這是事實啊！擺在眼前啦！次長，30年來貧富差距擴大的感受，在座各位如果是30年前出社會，甚至是還在念大學的，本席相信大多數人都非常、非常地有感，不論是當時社會新鮮人的薪資，又或者是大學時代的房租、學費，相信30年來的物價變化都會讓大家心有戚戚焉啦！次長，面對現在大多數民眾的所得多半只有夠生活必要的開銷，付完房租、水電以及餐費後所剩無幾啊！財政部幫得了這些人什麼忙？你認為有沒有辦法？"],["李次長慶華：跟委員報告，其實我們也是持續做所得稅制的改善。"],["林委員德福：我知道啊！"],["李次長慶華：對，希望能夠透過稅制的改革增加一些政府收入，然後利用這些收入給予相關的，像行政院主計總處或者是相關的部會，藉由移轉性的支出來改善這些必須、需要扶助的人民的生活。"],["林委員德福：但事實上它是剛好倒著走啊，貧富差距越擴越大！你認為所剩無幾的這些人是不是借錢來投資零股、期待賺機會財；還是借錢買臺股、操作當沖，可以靠當沖降稅的誘因來發點風險財；又或者是小小的去買一些公益彩券，抱著大概有一天能夠中大獎的美夢！次長，除了這些有如白日夢的幻想，財政部有沒有想過在稅制上能夠更務實去解決實際上貧富差距的辦法到底是什麼？你認為有沒有辦法改善？"],["李次長慶華：其實委員提的這個部分，我們當然不希望民眾為了投機獲利去股市做當沖交易，這個對他們來講，也許反而會造成更大的損失，所以我們現在也配合經濟部來實施所謂的鼓勵企業加薪減稅，就是中小企業加薪減稅，希望讓企業能夠將它的獲利分享或者是回饋給他的員工，然後增加員工的薪資，讓他的所得能力增加，這樣子可能是比較正確的作法。"],["林委員德福：次長，上個禮拜朱澤民朱主計長說：財務最低20%家庭的金融負債30年來增加16倍，可能是因為財務槓桿操作太嚴重，導致負債顯著的增加，應謹慎理財。本席認同理財要謹慎的必要性，只是把財務最低20%家庭的原因歸咎於理財謹慎程度不夠，本席認為政府恐怕難辭其咎！因為30年來政府為了和國際接軌，在金融政策的開放性、安全性方面，陸續讓專業金融和知識缺乏的民眾有了更多掉入陷阱的機會，例如早期推銷信用卡、現金卡，結果成就了許多卡奴；十多年前新型金融商品的連動債造就了許多金融消費的苦主；近年來，更是為了推動科技金融而刺激便利金融消費，在無法有效嚇阻金融詐騙的環境下，讓民眾真的是人心惶惶！","我請問次長，從剛剛提到這些金融政策歷程去看貧富差距的形成，你認為是有錢人轉變為貧窮人容易，還是由受薪民眾轉變成貧窮人比較有可能，您的看法呢？"],["李次長慶華：這個當然就是看各個民眾在理財時所做的一些安排，還有他對本身投資理財的工具是不是真正有充分的認識。現在財政部能夠配合的措施就是，我們希望能夠透過加強宣導還有讓民眾認識金融商品，譬如配合金管會訂定的金融機構洗錢防制辦法、還有異常帳戶的管理，來保護民眾在銀行、金融機構的資產，希望他們不會因為這樣做了錯誤的判斷，或者是不小心被詐騙，然後造成他們的損失。"],["林委員德福：你認為有錢人和一般受薪的民眾獲取金錢所承受的風險，到底是誰比較大？你的看法呢？"],["李次長慶華：基本上來講，當然是高所得的人他可能比較有這方面的能力。"],["林委員德福：次長，我感受很深，就是在石油還沒有漲價以前，其實那時候的房子一坪差不多2萬塊、1萬8就買得到，現在一坪房子，各地區不一樣，像臺北市一坪都要一百多萬，一坪喔！你買個20坪可能就要三、四千萬；要是新北市，現在甚至達到90、100、80萬，幾乎比比皆是！你說現在年輕人要買一個房子談何容易，對不對？幾千萬的房子他要努力多少年？而且他一個月才領多少薪水？所以我認為這個有很多的問題，因為我時間到了，講實在話，很多人要存第一桶金都難上加難，他要顧生活又要租房子，這個真的是……我認為很多稅改的部分真的要好好的探討，次長。"],["李次長慶華：是，這個部分我們會持續來檢討相關的稅制。"],["林委員德福：對啊！"],["李次長慶華：但是重點還是……其實我們這幾年也希望能夠在房地產方面做一些稅制上面的調整，譬如說我們實施了房地合一所得稅制，我們也實施了房屋稅差別稅率2.0，也是希望讓擁有多戶房屋的這些人能夠多負擔一些他們應該負擔的合理稅賦。"],["林委員德福：我最後提一個，因為憲法第七條落實於稅法上，就是租稅平等原則，區分成水平平等與垂直平等兩種，水平平等是指同樣經濟給付能力者，應負擔相同的稅捐，垂直平等指不同支付能力者，應負擔不同的稅捐；富人應多繳稅，窮人應該要少繳稅。"],["李次長慶華：是，其實我們目前的稅制改革也是往這個方向來處理。"],["林委員德福：我認為這個很重要，謝謝。"],["李次長慶華：是，謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一位質詢請吳秉叡吳委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1","speakers":["羅明才","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳玉珍","張智倫","王世堅","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","許宇甄","李柏毅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」\n等2案","agenda_id":"1134101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":10.98284375,"end":13.78409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.35784375,"end":15.117218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.31909375,"end":19.84221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":20.53409375,"end":46.70721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.078468750000006,"end":60.814718750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.20284375000001,"end":66.11346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":66.73784375000001,"end":72.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":72.20534375,"end":130.22159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":127.03221875000001,"end":127.72409375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":129.27659375000002,"end":132.75284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":132.90471875,"end":138.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":139.41846875000002,"end":141.22409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.89909375000002,"end":142.72596875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":142.72596875000002,"end":150.75846875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.98659375,"end":177.06659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":152.02409375000002,"end":152.42909375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.15471875,"end":153.55971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":177.48846875,"end":198.36284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":198.75096875000003,"end":198.767843750000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的管理我們來保護我們這些銀行同民眾在銀行的金融機構的資產希望他們不會因為這樣這個做了錯誤的判斷或者是說被不小心被詐騙然後造成他們的損失"},{"start":457.685,"end":467.271,"text":"你認為有錢能害一般壽星的民眾獲取金錢所承受的風險到底是誰比較大?你的看法?市長,因為我認為我感受很深就是在石油還沒有"},{"start":475.776,"end":475.916,"text":"李卓人議員"},{"start":496.233,"end":515.849,"text":"那你要是新北市甚至於你現在達到90、180、80幾乎比比皆是你說現在年輕人要買一個房子談何容易啊對不對要幾千萬的房子他要努力多少年而且他一個月才領到多少薪水所以說我認為這個"},{"start":518.609,"end":521.132,"text":"我認為很多稅改的部分真的要好好的探討"},{"start":538.712,"end":538.732,"text":"市長"},{"start":564.38,"end":593.529,"text":"我最後提一個因為憲法第7條落實於稅法上就是租稅平等原則區分水平平等與垂直平等兩種水平平等是指同樣經濟幾戶人力者應互擔相同的稅捐垂直平等則有不同之戶人力者應互擔不同的稅捐戶人應多繳稅窮人應該要少繳稅是其實我們目前的稅制改革也是往這個方向來我認為這個很重要"},{"start":594.189,"end":594.209,"text":"謝謝委員"}]}},{"id":"152168","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152168","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a688cfef32658f83bad84bf63cf92ad2af6d65503e05c7869ec14b1ada5b04794185ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"賴士葆","委員發言時間":"09:02:31 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感謝,謝謝。"}]}},{"id":"152221","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152221","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a688ed1153bcfa8f68984bf63cf92ad2af6801aa916026d4d42fbbbce6fde1d30f15ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"鍾佳濱","委員發言時間":"12:00:16 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12:08:28","影片長度":"00:08:12","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」等2案。\n【5月6日及8日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1"},"duration":492,"end_time":"2024-05-06T12:08:28+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T12:00:16+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":918,"blocks":[["鍾委員佳濱：（12時）主席、在場的委員先進、列席政府機關首長官員、會場工作夥伴、記者媒體女士先生。有請財政部李次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["鍾委員佳濱：次長好。我們最近常常就財政部有關於稅賦公平跟照顧弱勢的問題來跟您進行請教，我們來看一看今天這個案例，其實我很少看到財政部對立法院修法，你們的報告只有簡單兩頁，看起來財政部對於這樣的修法，似乎是沒有太多意見，我請教一下，目前各地方政府開徵特別稅有爭議、有行政訴訟的有哪幾件？"],["李次長慶華：目前只有花蓮縣政府的。"],["鍾委員佳濱：只有花蓮縣政府這一件？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：這一件的主要標的是什麼？"],["李次長慶華：礦石稅……"],["鍾委員佳濱：不是礦石，是礦石開採特別稅，那是從2009年開始，然後2012年它公布自治條例施行期間是4年，4年那個期程是根據我們的規定，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：是可以4年，對，沒錯。特別稅實施期間就是4年。"],["鍾委員佳濱：然後在2016年予以廢止，廢止之後它的標準從原來10塊錢變成70塊錢，為什麼要提前廢止？是不是提前廢止之後，就可以從10塊調到70塊，是這個原因嗎？從10元調到70元是不是受它自己自治條例的限制？"],["李次長慶華：對，它自己的自治條例。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它自己的自治條例規定了，就不能夠調超過30%，是不是這樣？"],["李次長慶華：沒有，因為它自治條例是依照地方稅法通則第三條的規定。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第三條，不是第四條？"],["李次長慶華：對，第四條才有中央立法的地方稅，才會有30%的限制。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對，中央立法的地方稅有什麼？像房屋稅還有什麼？"],["李次長慶華：房屋稅、地價稅，還有使用牌照稅。"],["鍾委員佳濱：對的，所以它自己自治條例的訂定是要根據第三條，如果是根據第三條，就沒有這30%的限制，那它幹嘛要廢掉？它不廢掉，它就不受限制，可以10塊錢調到70塊啊！為什麼要把它的自治條例廢掉，然後才從10塊調到70塊？"],["李次長慶華：因為它要調增稅額，或者是要訂定新的稅額，就必須要把原來的自治條例廢止，重新、新訂自治條例，然後經過議會的通過才可以執行。"],["鍾委員佳濱：喔！所以它提前廢止，然後公布一個新的自治條例，依這個新的自治條例就從10塊調70塊，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：是，沒錯。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它是根據第三條，不是第四條，所以它有權可以這樣做，是這樣嗎？"],["李次長慶華：依照目前的第三條是這樣。"],["鍾委員佳濱：現在我們來看一下，全國各地方政府只有花蓮有這樣一個稅收，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：對，爭訟案件。"],["鍾委員佳濱：而且你看這個金額，南投還有一些金額，其他還有的是30億左右，但它獨獨可以達到快80億以上，是不是占我們全國地方稅、特別稅將近一半，是不是這樣？"],["李次長慶華：對，它的金額是比較大一點。"],["鍾委員佳濱：請問一下，我們看到它的行政訴訟是連敗20次。"],["李次長慶華：沒有啦，大概就是8件吧！"],["鍾委員佳濱：8件，20次全部敗訴，為什麼法院判它敗訴？"],["李次長慶華：法院判敗訴的原因，第一個，因為行政法院對於我們第三條、第四條的適用範圍，他們可能有一些誤解，誤以為它是要受到第四條30%的限制。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我知道意思了，可能法院的認知上跟我們立法者或者我們執法者有點不太一樣。好，我們往下看，但是我覺得這要小心啦！因為全國只有花蓮產大理石，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：花蓮是大理石的主要礦區，全國用的水泥是不是來自於花蓮為主？礦場占了四成，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：主要是來自花蓮。"],["鍾委員佳濱：如果它因為調整這個稅造成建材上漲，房價會不會上升？有沒有評估過這個情況？"],["李次長慶華：不一定啦！"],["鍾委員佳濱：不一定但是有這個可能，我舉個例子好了，以金門高粱為例，如果今天全臺灣就只有金門那裡的水可以釀大家喜歡的高粱酒，如果不是金門縣政府投資一個金酒公司，而是金門縣政府根據第三條來對所有金門釀高粱酒的酒廠課稅，我請教一下，如果金門縣政府把第三條的特別稅提高很多，你覺得全國的金門高粱會不會漲價？"],["李次長慶華：兩個是不同的東西。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我先就高粱酒的部分來問你，當然我知道高粱酒漲價，買不起就不要喝，就算了，也不是壞事啦！但是水泥不一樣，所以我要說的是，其實財政部從稅理上，從第三條、第四條的分際上，你們對於這樣的修正，你們是尊重我們立法院的決定，其實你們認為沒有什麼好反對的，但是本席要提醒你一下，你看看花蓮縣政府從10塊調到70塊，它收的這些錢有沒有對開礦礦區周邊的居民進行回饋，你有沒有去考察這一點？"],["李次長慶華：這個部分我們有要求地方政府。"],["鍾委員佳濱：它有做嗎？"],["李次長慶華：我們並沒有真正去瞭解他們實際上支出的狀況。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我覺得財政部管稅，不是管怎麼收，其實你們也會考量到稅賦公平、看怎麼用，如果今天花蓮縣政府可以課這麼多的稅收，占我們地方特別稅一半這樣的稅收，是因為花蓮有一個獨占全臺灣的礦產，這樣的礦產產出來的大理石，還有包括它的水泥，是全臺灣市場在使用，這是花蓮的貢獻，可是這個貢獻花蓮政府拿去了，真正承受礦區環境成本的是該地區的居民，基本上，這樣的稅我們在稅則上認同由地方政府來自行調整，但是對於地方政府有沒有善盡相關的工作，有兩個部分，首先是這樣的價格，會不會造成全臺灣消費者的負擔，以及這樣的收入有沒有反映到礦場周邊居民的回饋上？您覺得這兩個要不要評估？"],["李次長慶華：跟委員報告，其實我們現在在審查他們這些地方自治條例的時候，就是報到財政部來審查的時候，我們都有要求各縣市政府，第一個，一定要舉辦公聽會，然後要跟當地受影響的利害關係人進行相關的溝通。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以你們有要求就對了。"],["李次長慶華：對，另外就是它的成本效益怎麼分析、做些什麼相關的用途，其實都要提供給我們相關參考的評估。"],["鍾委員佳濱：主席站起來了，我有兩個要求，第一個，如果這樣的稅，經過修法後地方政府可以依它的意思來調整，造成整個全國建材的波動，財政部要會同經濟部趕快去評估，可以嗎？"],["李次長慶華：其實我們在會議當中，還有會前審查自治條例的時候都有要求。"],["鍾委員佳濱：我請你再去跟經濟部說要評估。"],["李次長慶華：有，我們都有請他們表示意見。"],["鍾委員佳濱：因為今天房價的事情全國都關注，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["鍾委員佳濱：第二個，對於花蓮縣政府，他們過去公聽會上，有沒有將這個收益反映在礦場、環境成本受到影響最多的社區或居民上，有沒有做這樣的回饋，你們可不可以請他們拿出具體的一個研析讓大家知道？這個稅的確地方政府有它的權力收取，但是怎麼用，要跟大家交代，可以嗎？"],["李次長慶華：可以跟委員報告一下，我可不可以再說1分鐘就好？基本上它就是一個縣庫的收入，縣庫的收入他們是統收統支，他們去做相關的支出，到底是不是有一定比例要回饋到那個礦區周邊的居民，當然……"],["鍾委員佳濱：我們的空污稅、空污費也是一樣啊！也是特定的，就是要說明空污費是要用在哪裡啊！"],["李次長慶華：因為它不是專款專用的概念。"],["鍾委員佳濱：所以請財政部就這部分請地方政府提出一個研析，讓我們大家都知道，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：這個我們可以請花蓮縣政府提供。"],["鍾委員佳濱：好，謝謝。"],["主席：接下來請鄭正鈐委員，鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐、鄭正鈐，鄭委員不在。","請林楚茵，林楚茵、林楚茵、林楚茵，林委員不在。","請傅崐萁，傅崐萁、傅崐萁，傅委員不在。","今日登記發言委員均已詢答完畢。","現在進行討論事項之處理，請議事人員宣讀地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案兩案之提案內容，宣讀完畢後進行協商。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1","speakers":["羅明才","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳玉珍","張智倫","王世堅","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","許宇甄","李柏毅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」\n等2案","agenda_id":"1134101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.0265937500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.902843750000002,"end":20.12909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.11596875,"end":23.132843750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.132843750000003,"end":23.200343750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.200343750000002,"end":23.79096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.79096875,"end":37.78034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":39.21471875,"end":40.27784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":40.969718750000006,"end":44.80034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":45.087218750000005,"end":47.66909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":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12:00:03","影片長度":"00:09:25","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」等2案。\n【5月6日及8日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1"},"duration":565,"end_time":"2024-05-06T12:00:03+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T11:50:38+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":869,"blocks":[["黃委員國昌：（11時50分）謝謝主席，麻煩有請次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["黃委員國昌：次長好，之前我曾經在財政委員會公開提出檢舉，足協根本沒有支付球員比賽的費用，竟然發出了偽造的扣繳憑單，上一次財政部給我的答復說他們已經更正了，那我的問題是他們明明就沒有給錢，沒有給錢還可以出具偽造的扣繳憑單，上面的文書內容實際上就是登載不實，你們說要回去研究，那現在研究的結果是什麼？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，我們北區國稅局已經有處理了，據我所瞭解，應該會以不實憑證列報相關費用，有違反相關的法律規定，所以他們會移送檢調。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候移送檢調？"],["李次長慶華：我不知道他發文了沒有，他們現在會透過財政部來正式發文給黃委員。"],["黃委員國昌：什麼時候會發文？"],["李次長慶華：請署長來說明一下。"],["宋署長秀玲：報告委員，這個案子在您關心之後，我們北區國稅局積極處理，目前他們有研擬一個處理方式報我們財政部，但其實這個是沒有財政部決行的問題，北區國稅局可以就事實來查核，所以我們會再跟他們溝通。"],["黃委員國昌：你要跟他們溝通什麼？剛剛次長講的是不是真的？依法移送檢調？"],["李次長慶華：目前的具體方向是這樣、目前查證的結果是這樣。"],["黃委員國昌：我希望，發現了這種離譜的犯罪事實，財政部、國稅局要有立場，不能讓他們這樣胡搞瞎搞。上次我在教文委員會質詢的時候，我看體育署是明顯想要放水，當然體育署想要放水有他們自己深層的理由，因為現在的體育署署長當初就是那個足協的秘書長，所以我說我不信任體育署自己查自己，現在的體育署署長去查以前的足協秘書長，這不是太荒謬了嗎？但財政部今天這樣子的答復，我覺得有做到一個行政機關依法行政該做的事情，就像我上次跟你們講的，這麼離譜的事情，不是透過內部喬一喬、私下更正就算了，該移送檢調就要移送檢調，你們正式移送檢調的時候，公文一併回復給我可以嗎？"],["李次長慶華：會，其實我們北區國稅局現在就是要正式答復委員，只是因為當時是財委會裡面的會議紀錄，所以他們才想透過財政部來做回復……"],["黃委員國昌：儘速好不好？"],["李次長慶華：我們會儘速回復。"],["黃委員國昌：請部長不要把公文壓在桌上。"],["李次長慶華：不會、不會，我們會儘速回復。"],["黃委員國昌：好。第二個事情，我之前也在財委會公開質詢過，針對2019年彰銀有理專挪用客戶6,300萬，結果檢調明明都去搜了，媒體爆料了以後，彰銀才急急忙忙發布重訊，你看這個時間序上，我們公股行庫──彰銀，財政部在進行管理的時候，對於公股行庫發生這麼離譜的事情，是不是有消息的遮掩、有沒有依法發重訊這件事情，我上次提出了質詢以後，請問財政部有沒有請你們國庫署，因為我知道國庫署的副署長應該在彰銀是董事嘛！到底發生了什麼事？他們怎麼處理的？這樣子處理是不是符合相關的規定？財政部後續的處理是什麼？我完全沒有看到彰銀針對這件事情有任何公開的回復。"],["李次長慶華：這部分我們可不可以請國庫署署長說明。"],["黃委員國昌：可以，請國庫署。"],["陳署長柏誠：跟委員報告，因為彰銀發布重訊是依據證交所發布重訊的作業辦法來判斷，他們判斷那時候檢調搜索的是一個已經離職員工的家裡，所以他就沒辦法就這個來判斷……"],["黃委員國昌：來，我們來看一下公司發生內部舞弊、非常規交易或掏空資產的重大事件，這個算不算依照臺灣證券交易所股份有限公司發布重訊的相關規定？現在我的問題就來了嘛，彰銀連自己裡面員工挪用客戶6,300萬這種事情都可以不發重訊，現在我質疑這是不是財政部的立場？這是不是國庫署的立場？因為這個態度奠定下去了以後，所有不僅僅是公股行庫，民營的銀行大家有樣學樣，公股行庫在這種情況下都沒有發重訊了，憑什麼要求其他的民營銀行在這個時候要發布重訊？理專去挪用客戶6,300萬，目前國庫署的立場是，在這種情況下不用發布重訊沒有關係嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：我們這邊的回應是，因為發生當時還很難判斷它到底符不符合發布重訊的相關規定……"],["黃委員國昌：你們是到什麼時候才確定他有挪用6,300萬？"],["陳署長柏誠：他在109年7月的時候依照規定發布重訊……"],["黃委員國昌：對啊！你在2019年6月的時候不就發現了這件事嗎？這個就是我講的point啊！你一定要等到媒體爆料的時候，然後你們才發了遲來的重訊，問題是這本來就是上市公司自己要揭露的事情啊！你現在跟我講的事情是在發布重訊以前，彰銀內部還沒有確定有6,300萬被挪用，是真的嗎？國庫署。"],["陳署長柏誠：是啊，它當時……"],["黃委員國昌：好，沒有關係。再下一個案子，2024年彰化銀行發現了一樣的事，辦事員挪用客戶的款項，利用他人的帳戶移轉客戶的資金，向客戶借貸、從事不當投資，有沒有向財政部通報？有沒有移檢調？有沒有發重訊？"],["陳署長柏誠：有，這個部分在1月24號有發重大偶發事件到財政部。"],["黃委員國昌：發給財政部以後呢？它有發重訊嗎？你剛剛不是跟我說要發現了以後才能發，那我現在就貼彰銀內部的通告給你看，他們發現了也處分了，有發重訊嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：關於發布重訊的部分，目前看起來是沒有。"],["黃委員國昌：為什麼可以不發？"],["陳署長柏誠：委員，不好意思，剛剛我們的回應是，因為重訊這東西是公司依照證交所的相關規定判斷，我們尊重它自己的判斷……"],["黃委員國昌：先停一下，判斷我們的公股行庫有沒有依照證交所的規定發重訊，財政部的立場是這件事情財政部管不到，是這樣嗎？如果連我們自己的公股行庫都沒有依照證交所相關的規定，該發重訊的時候發重訊，你要怎麼去要求其他的上市櫃公司？這個不是最基本的嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：首先彰銀是依據相關規定判斷，但是我們也會事後再督導一下彰銀有沒有確實的落實……"],["黃委員國昌：所以你們督導的結果是怎麼樣？你們督導的結果如何？"],["陳署長柏誠：目前我們看過他們的相關資料，他們自己的內部資料裡面是都有訂相關的一些發生事件標準……"],["黃委員國昌：我已經貼出來給你看了，彰銀自己已經認定了，我現在的問題是，為什麼這種事情，我們的公股行庫可以遮掩？為什麼可以不用發重訊？這是我的問題。因為主席站起來了，他一直跟我示意時間到了，請財政部跟彰銀一起書面回復，好嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：謝謝委員，可以。"],["黃委員國昌：這個標準的實踐很重要喔！如果連我們的公股　行庫自己都不守規矩，財政部一句話都不吭，我們以後如何要求其他上市櫃公司發生舞弊的時候要依法發重訊？需要多久的時間，一個禮拜之內可以嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：委員，這個部分我們希望他們能夠依照證交所的相關規定去落實，所以目前正在研簽，所以是不是可以……"],["黃委員國昌：一個禮拜之內可以嗎？"],["陳署長柏誠：一個月的時間，謝謝。"],["黃委員國昌：一個月的時間太長了，請主席裁示。"],["主席：好，時間到，兩個禮拜資料補充。"],["陳署長柏誠：遵照辦理。"],["黃委員國昌：請兩個禮拜之內把東西交出來。"],["主席：下一位質詢請洪孟楷委員、洪孟楷、洪孟楷、洪孟楷委員不在。","請鍾佳濱委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1","speakers":["羅明才","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳玉珍","張智倫","王世堅","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","許宇甄","李柏毅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」\n等2案","agenda_id":"1134101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.7434687500000003,"end":5.48159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.46034375,"end":7.101593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":12.484718750000003,"end":12.957218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.497218750000002,"end":19.403468750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.80846875,"end":37.830968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":38.11784375,"end":41.391593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":41.88096875,"end":42.74159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":43.01159375,"end":45.86346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":46.42034375,"end":50.031593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.23409375,"end":66.55221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":67.22721875,"end":68.54346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.69534375,"end":71.47971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":72.35721875,"end":76.72784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.38596875,"end":78.38159375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAK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布重訊沒有關係嗎?我們這邊的回應是說因為依照當時發生的時候他還很難判斷說他到底符不符合發布重訊的一個相關規定你們是到什麼時候才確定他有挪用6300萬?他109年7月的時候他就已經發布重訊"},{"start":347.298,"end":374.949,"text":"你現在在2019年6月的時候不就發現了這件事嗎?這個就是我講的point阿你一定要等到媒體爆料的時候然後你們才發了遲來的重訊問題是這本來就是上市公司自己要揭露的事情阿你現在在跟我講的事情是在發布重訊以前張宜內部還沒有確定有了6300萬倍挪用是真的嗎?"},{"start":377.809,"end":405.751,"text":"國庫署（是啊（好啦沒有關係下一個案子2024年章化銀行發現了又有一樣辦事員挪用客戶的款項利用他人的帳戶移轉客戶的資金向客戶借貸從事不當的投資有沒有向財政部通報有沒有移檢調有沒有發訊息"},{"start":408.593,"end":430.828,"text":"有,他這個部份在1月24號有發重大午發到財政部發給財政部以後呢,他有發重訊嗎?你剛不是跟我說要發線以後才能發那我現在就貼啊張宜內部的通告給你看啊,他們發線啊有處分啊有發重訊嗎?這個發布重訊的部份目前"},{"start":438.444,"end":443.166,"text":"為什麼可以不發?先停一下齁我們的宮古行庫有沒有依照證書、證交所的規定發訊息財政部的立場是這件事情財政部管不到,是這樣嗎?"},{"start":463.635,"end":488.762,"text":"如果連我們自己的公股黃庫都沒有依照證交所相關的規定該發訊息的時候發訊息,你要怎麼去要求其他的上市櫃公司?這不是最基本的嗎?首先張瑩她是依據她相關規定判斷,但是我們也會事後再督導一下張瑩這邊有沒有確實的落實所以你們督導的結果是怎麼樣?"},{"start":491.072,"end":513.147,"text":"你們督導的結果如何?目前我們看過他們的相關資料喔,他們自己的內部資料裡面是都有定相關的一些發生…我已經貼出來給你看欸!我已經貼出來給你看欸!張瑩自己已經認定了欸!我現在的問題是為什麼這種事情我們的公股、航庫可以遮掩?為什麼可以不用發訊息?"},{"start":514.947,"end":542.173,"text":"這是我的問題啦因為主席站起來了他一直跟我示意我時間到了請財政部跟張穎一起書面回覆好嗎?謝謝委員可以這個標準 這個標準的實踐很重要喔如果連我們的工股、行庫自己都不守規矩財政部一句話都不吭我們以後如何要求其他上市貴公司發生舞弊的時候要依法發重訊需要多久的時間?一個禮拜之內可以嗎?"},{"start":544.104,"end":545.345,"text":"一個禮拜之內可以嗎?一個月的時間太長了,請主席才是請兩個禮拜之內把東西交出來"}]}},{"id":"152216","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152216","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a68b799b9647fb521bd84bf63cf92ad2af6801aa916026d4d429be7746c6163105b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王世堅","委員發言時間":"11:39:32 - 11:50:20","影片長度":"00:10:48","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」等2案。\n【5月6日及8日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1"},"duration":648,"end_time":"2024-05-06T11:50:20+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T11:39:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":846,"blocks":[["王委員世堅：（11時39分）謝謝主席，我請財政部李次長還有賦稅署宋署長。"],["主席：請李次長跟宋署長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["王委員世堅：次長、署長，三個問題，第一個問題是本席在前兩次會議有提一個臨時提案，希望我們對於免稅額、寬減額的提高，應該把消費者物價指數上漲累計3%這一個限制降低，我們把CPI累計上漲3%降低啦！降低這個門檻，結果你的答復我看不懂，你講了一大堆，你的意思就是我們這些免稅額、寬減額已經太多項目啦！包括什麼租金的寬減、長照的寬減等等，你寫了一堆，那些本來就有寬減啊！所以我想不懂為什麼必須要達到消費者物價指數（CPI）漲3%以上的這一個門檻不能降低，降低到2%、降低到1%都不行？","事實上，我們全民社會的感覺，都覺得這個CPI的調查、這些指數都沒辦法全面真實的反映我們事實上生活物價的高漲、調整，沒辦法嘛！所以我跟其他好幾位財委會同仁才會提這個臨時提案，希望你們去降低啦！所以我不曉得你能不能重新再考慮收回你那一次的答復，好不好？因為那個答復，我很簡單，講三個字——看不懂！","我不懂的另外一件事情就是，奇怪！你們107年的時候刪除了富人稅，這富人稅一年將近100億，這6年下來你們刪除、少徵了600億的富人稅，那時候你們很慷慨，大筆一揮，也沒有這麼多其他的林林總總什麼，講一大堆理由，沒有！沒有！那這600億你有找到替代財源嗎？你有說我少掉富人稅，那我去徵什麼來做替代財源，找到了我們再來刪，沒有！你們也沒這麼做，我認為現在民眾對於物價高漲已經感受很深，而且4月份我們調漲電價以後，可能後續物價的波動還會再來一波也說不定，所以我希望次長你們回去重新把你這個答復收回，你重新再考慮，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：委員，我說明一下，因為目前那個3%是一個累計數，等於就是從上次調整到現在已經超過3%。"],["王委員世堅：是啦！這個又是你的理由一堆啦！"],["李次長慶華：但是因為現在一般來講，行政院主計總處認定是不是通膨是看一年的CPI有沒有超過2%。"],["王委員世堅：這些我們都知道……"],["李次長慶華：是，所以我們是覺得……"],["王委員世堅：要論這個論不完啦！這個，我就是要告訴你，不只我，我們提案的幾位委員，我們很坦白跟你講，我就是簡單跟你說三個字──看不懂！那再外加三個字，你現在說明了，我再加三個字──聽不懂啦！我就跟你講嘛！你當時你要刪除富人稅的時候，你可曾講那麼多「落落長」，沒有嘛？不是嗎？這6年來那600億大筆一揮就沒啦，不是嗎？你為了那一千人、為了那一千多個有錢人、最頂端的有錢人，你可以大筆一揮，不用任何解釋，你只有簡單幾個字，我上次跟你講過，我也懶得再跟你講，意思就是說你要留財、攬財就對啦！那個「財」不是才能的「才」，你是幫這些富人留財，是財富的「財」！留給他們，是這樣嗎？","另外，對於加薪減稅，你們的答復我也是覺得……你說照院版加薪金額150%內，這個我們可以再討論啦！但是我認為這麼多年來，中段班薪資的加薪最少啦！在我們統計之內，薪資對象裡的中段班幾乎都低於平均薪資，所以我的提案才會說我們加碼到200%限度內免稅，來讓企業對中階段薪資者加薪。因為根據我們的調查，我們現在中位數有三分之二以上的勞工領不到平均數，領不到平均數！所以我希望你們能夠再次看清楚一點我這個提案，對於沒有達到平均薪資的員工加薪，應該給他們更高的薪資費用加成率，才能鼓勵企業對他們加薪嘛，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：委員，這提案我們上禮拜四在經濟委員會已經審查了……"],["王委員世堅：你那個說明我一樣再送你三個字──看不懂！我覺得你們很奇怪，對全體多數百姓有利的、對大多數受薪階級有利的，你們就是錙銖必較，寫到整篇「落落長」，對大金額、高金額的你們就很慷慨，我不懂啦！我不懂你們的看法是什麼啦！"],["李次長慶華：不過委員這個部分我們會再討論，因為這個部分已經要交付朝野協商，經濟部也在參考各位委員的意見，我們會跟他們一起來決定，看要不要把這個門檻再大幅的調高。"],["王委員世堅：我再送你六個字啦！希望你在處理、調整這些稅率的時候，你考慮到這六個字，這六個字叫「見富者而藐之」！你不要看到有錢人就像看到天一樣，可不可以？「見富者而藐之」！","好啦！我在最後幾分鐘跟你談一下機車，我搞不懂財政部這麼多年以來就是對機車族，我如果用五個字形容叫「千刀萬里追」，說機車是空氣污染的元兇，每次都用這個理由說，所以我們要加徵機車的貨物稅，結果次長你知道這多離譜嗎？機車的貨物稅現在是17%，竟然比大客車15%還高，大家人盡皆知啊！機車排放廢氣絕對是遠低於大客車，不是嗎？結果你們竟然這麼……你們還是一樣推給空污，我就跟環保署調，我說機車真的是這麼可惡嗎？現在新的七期排放標準，現在的機車……電動的不講，電動幾乎無污染，我們就講新的燃油機車，都已經是七期排放標準，它在PM2.5的排放裡面，它不是我們整體環境有PM2.5的元兇，機車在整體環境裡面，只占PM2.5來源4.9%，4.9到5.6中間，我就舉一項就好，餐飲業10%，餐廳占10%！你如果說要追PM2.5的元兇，那應該通令各級縣市政府衛生局、環保局對這一部分來追，更何況如果要對空污來懲罰，必也正名乎！你就讓環保署去課空污費等等，這才對嘛，不是嗎？結果你說因為空污，所以我要跟你課貨物稅，這很奇怪嘛，不是嗎？","因為我時間已經到了，次長，好不容易，你跟署長你們應該都會留任，應該是可以為國家做更多的事，我希望你們能夠把握，既然留下來了，可以好好處理你們對我們委員會的一些很粗糙的答復，其實因為我們惜才愛才，我們的憤怒遠高於剛才這些言詞，好不好？你們的答復太輕率了。"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員。"],["王委員世堅：好，你請回。謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝，接著請黃國昌委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1","speakers":["羅明才","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳玉珍","張智倫","王世堅","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","許宇甄","李柏毅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」\n等2案","agenda_id":"1134101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":24.43221875,"end":26.54159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":27.01409375,"end":29.140343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":29.59596875,"end":31.43534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":33.42659375,"end":34.81034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":35.89034375,"end":37.30784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":36.26159375,"end":37.088468750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_02","start":37.42596875,"end":37.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":37.45971875,"end":38.47221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":40.10909375,"end":40.75034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":41.729093750000004,"end":42.85971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":43.500968750000006,"end":44.344718750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":44.49659375,"end":45.610343750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":47.56784375,"end":48.19221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":49.05284375,"end":49.66034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":50.38596875,"end":52.64721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":52.93409375,"end":54.60471875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":55.009718750000005,"end":64.37534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":64.93221875,"end":66.28221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":68.50971875,"end":72.88034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":73.55534375,"end":75.44534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":76.27221875000001,"end":78.02721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":79.47846875,"end":94.41284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":95.15534375,"end":97.90596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_03","start":98.54721875,"end":1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你有找到替代財源嗎?"},{"start":192.772,"end":200.855,"text":"你有說 我少掉富人稅 那我去爭什麼來做替代財源 找到了我們再來刪 沒有 你們也沒這麼做 所以我認為啦 現在民眾對於物價高漲已經"},{"start":211.604,"end":231.066,"text":"感受很深而且4月份我們調漲電價以後可能後續物價的波動還會再來一波也說不定所以我希望那個次長你們回去重新把你這個答覆收回你重新再考慮好不好"},{"start":232.845,"end":260.04,"text":"我説明一下就是目前因為我們那個3%他是一個累計數啦他等於就是從上次調整到現在已經超過3%這個又是你的理由一堆啦但是因為現在一般來講從行政院主義總署認定是不是通膨他是看說一年的這個CPI有沒有超過2%這些我們都知道所以我們是覺得要論這個論不完啦這個我就是告訴你不只我"},{"start":260.8,"end":288.439,"text":"我們提案的幾位委員我們很坦白跟你講我就是簡單跟你說三個字看不懂那再外加三個字你現在說明我再加三個字聽不懂啊就我跟你講嘛當時你要把富人稅刪除的時候你可曾講那麼多漏漏等沒有嘛"},{"start":289.736,"end":311.675,"text":"不是嗎?那600億這6年來那600億大筆一揮就沒了啊不是嗎?你為了那1000人為了那1000多個有錢人最頂端的有錢人你可以大筆一揮不用任何解釋你只有簡單幾個字我上次跟你講過我也懶得再跟你講意思就是說你要流財攬財就對啦"},{"start":320.27,"end":323.451,"text":"另外加薪減稅你們的答覆我也是覺得"},{"start":337.609,"end":354.426,"text":"這個你說照院版好照院版你只要你說這個加薪進了150%內這個我們可以再討論啦但是我認為這麼多年來中段班薪資的加薪最少啦"},{"start":355.927,"end":364.792,"text":"在我們統計室內薪資對象中段班幾乎都低於平均薪資所以我的提案才會說我們加碼到200%限度內免稅來"},{"start":372.207,"end":399.598,"text":"讓企業會對中階段薪資來加稅因為根據我們的調查我們現在中位數據這個有三分之二以上的勞工領不到平均數領不到平均數所以我這個提案我希望你們能夠再次看清楚一點沒有達到平均薪資的員工加薪應該給他們更高的"},{"start":400.763,"end":405.67,"text":"新資費用加成率才能鼓勵企業對他們加薪嗎?好不好?看不懂!"},{"start":417.144,"end":443.04,"text":"我覺得齁,你們奇怪,對全體多數百姓有利的,對大多數壽星階級有利的,阿你們就是,齁齁,知珠必較啦,講到瘦到整片露露凍。阿對那個大金額、高金額的,你們就很慷慨就對了。我不懂的啦,我不懂你們是怎麼看法啦齁。"},{"start":444.366,"end":445.287,"text":"我再創你6個字啦希望你在處理這些稅率調整的時候你考慮到這6個字"},{"start":465.558,"end":476.008,"text":"這六個字叫見負責而秒知你們如果看到有幾人你就好像看到天一樣可不可以見負責而秒知好啦我在最後幾分鐘跟你談一下機車啦齁我搞不懂財政部這麼多年以來就是對機車族啊"},{"start":491.004,"end":518.839,"text":"我如果用6個字形容叫做千刀萬里追就說啊機車啊是空氣汙染的元兇每次都用這個理由說啊所以我們要加徵這個機車的貨物稅結果次長你知道這多離譜嗎機車的貨物稅現在是17%竟然比大客車15%還高那大家人盡皆知啊"},{"start":520.524,"end":544.465,"text":"機車排放這個廢棄絕對是遠低於大客車嘛不是嗎那結果欸你們竟然這麼那你們還是一樣推給空污我就跟環保署吊啦我說那機車真的是這麼可惡嗎欸現在新的七期排放標準現在的機車啊電動都不講電動幾乎無污染我們就講"},{"start":545.706,"end":569.12,"text":"新的一樣是燃油機車來講都已經是七期排放標準他在PM2.5的排放裡面他不是我們整體環境PM2.5的元兇耶機車在整體環境裡面PM2.5只佔百分之4.94.9到5.6中間我就舉一項就好"},{"start":572.489,"end":591.431,"text":"餐飲業10%餐廳占10%你若說要追PM2.5的元兇那應該通令我們各級縣市政府、衛生局、環保局對這一部分來追更何況如果要對空屋來懲罰"},{"start":593.289,"end":617.54,"text":"幣也正名乎你就跟他磕人家環保署去磕這個空屋費等等這才對嘛不是嗎那你弄一個你說啊這個空屋啊所以我要跟你磕貨物稅這很奇怪嘛不是嗎你這天因為我時間已經到了所以次長"},{"start":618.902,"end":642.962,"text":"好不容易你跟署長你們都應該是留任的啦那應該是可以為國家做更多的事啦我希望你們能夠把握既然留下來了可以把好好的把你對我們委員會的一些很粗糙的答覆我們其實因為習財愛財啦其實我們的憤怒遠高於剛才這些言辭好不好"},{"start":643.523,"end":646.097,"text":"因為你們那個答覆太輕率了"}]}},{"id":"152215","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152215","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a68c388df032c2050eb310b11d8215eda9e801aa916026d4d423f1c478c5b52ad615ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"廖偉翔","委員發言時間":"11:46:09 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謝謝廖偉翔委員發言接下來請邱振鈞委員 邱振鈞 邱振鈞委員不在接下來請中華民國護理師護士工會理事長暨理事長發言"}]}},{"id":"152214","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152214","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a68b76769c7f736067b310b11d8215eda9e801aa916026d4d4200ff06c9c86dfe3d5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇清泉","委員發言時間":"11:38:30 - 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藥費就1.1塊錢啊所以2000多億的藥費就這樣呼嚕呼嚕的就沒了然後呢 反過頭來新藥新科技"},{"start":88.951,"end":106.442,"text":"剛剛我們陳時中前部長他剛剛講了一個良心話他說健保總額要瘦身那終於講出良心話了總額要瘦身當然要瘦身啊前幾天我們時書長時書長講一個罕病"},{"start":112.072,"end":133.303,"text":"每一年每一年付聽了很高興對這些弱勢團體但是你是包山包海你什麼都要包現在長照長照每天每天都在吃健保的豆腐"},{"start":134.628,"end":158.209,"text":"我很後悔在第8屆我當召委的時候把長照服務法通過了那個時候馬英九總統說趕緊趕緊把長照保險法掃過去他就說李益春在做次長對吧我們都做那個要緊張不過那個時候我們的蔡英文主席那個時候堅決反對所以那個案就不去"},{"start":159.21,"end":178.875,"text":"我剛才在問他說,那個時候的長照保險如果有過,現在會長得什麼樣子?日本就是兩個,有醫療保險跟介護醫療保險,他們有兩個保險。那我們在訂長照服務法的時候,我去到那裡,我帶很多人去那裡考察兩次。"},{"start":180.905,"end":208.333,"text":"結果他們說他們的介乎醫療當下那個時候就那一年就9.4兆日元我一去就很緊張他說我已經撐不住了他們的首相那個是安倍剛剛就任他想把醫療保險跟長照保險把它募集在一起看看能不能重複的地方能不能省下來那後來好像有部分募集在一起併在一起"},{"start":209.113,"end":226.466,"text":"那我們現在就用一個醫療保險在支撐醫療還在部分支撐長照保險沒有長照保險之名但是我們在付長照保險之時反正很多人說說這個育成育成當然也要照顧"},{"start":229.726,"end":254.737,"text":"醫療要有韌性啊 啊醫療有韌性是什麼 韌性就是reserve 要有一塊地啦 一塊本啦 啊大家都散屁屁啦 要再韌性 沒錢要韌性 韌性是要有經濟的支撐所以呢 我們學者專家 包括政所下 他們都是一路走來 伴隨著健保在走 飛到"},{"start":256.95,"end":279.747,"text":"關頭了,我們不會提出來現在就是無處理不可以的時候民進黨都沒提案,我提一個案,黃毅民提一個案,黨團提一個案民進黨我在等你提案,不敢提,誰不敢提,新的補定不知道要怎麼補啊總統也不知道要怎麼補,你說得這麼大堆,你自己說1.1元喔搞清楚喔"},{"start":280.996,"end":303.137,"text":"三個總統候選人都講一樣,0.95朝1.1遠方,不要進,侯友宜也是一樣這樣講,侯友宜講的比我講的,柯恩哲也一樣,所以賴總統在想什麼,你是腎臟科醫師,大家都頭腦都不錯啦,我心臟外科,我們王剛系是"},{"start":305.115,"end":330.641,"text":"總留科的我們好好地來跟他們說為什麼上禮拜我堅持要出委員會當然也要出委員會不出委員會你就沒壓力啊你就擺爛啊就討論我們主席跟我們講說待會在討論討論我告訴你你再討論三年就沒結果了因為過去十年就是這樣討論就是討論所以在疫情的時候我們很感謝衛生部也回過頭來照顧"},{"start":332.321,"end":356.906,"text":"我們的意見這是事實但是我有跟大家講那些特別預算補助所有醫事人員的全部都照冊照冊照冊醫療院手人一毛錢沒人幹因為那些負薪者所以你現在剛剛在講說醫改會在講說醫事人員的薪水都沒有增加等等我可以在這邊要求我們衛務部"},{"start":358.482,"end":371.933,"text":"我們以後報財報上去就把醫事這邊老黨很簡單啊這個護理人員這個某某某他一年領多少錢從博覽報給你們給你們一個一個去檢視這個不難這個很簡單的事情我們以後的財報就把連人事費用都報上去我們醫界敢這樣承諾就這樣幹有沒有問題沒有問題啊不能說"},{"start":388.523,"end":416.284,"text":"最後講30秒有這一書 我的有書 我跟他說藥師調劑費 什麼費 什麼費 什麼費我全部都給你我還加三成給你你們去付你們自己的薪水他們不要因為他們要求的是起薪90萬年薪然後最好每個月要10萬塊不然的話外面大數藥局一個月就是10萬塊"},{"start":418.408,"end":434.913,"text":"所以 有錢也欠沒人 那我們婦理學院會 等一下記者會講不要說你幫這邊要愛護病肥 這邊要愛顧心事 還要照辦 你在裝笑的所以我們只能 一樣 所以再一次跟大家報告"},{"start":436.431,"end":436.551,"text":"蘇清泉"}]}},{"id":"152213","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152213","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a6846e6175dba30af8884bf63cf92ad2af6801aa916026d4d42f0fba3fac4fb75495ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張智倫","委員發言時間":"11:29:40 - 11:39:12","影片長度":"00:09:32","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」等2案。\n【5月6日及8日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1"},"duration":572,"end_time":"2024-05-06T11:39:12+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T11:29:40+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":789,"blocks":[["張委員智倫：（11時29分）主席好，各位委員、各位官員，大家早安、大家好！是不是有請我們的政次？謝謝。"],["主席（羅委員明才）：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["張委員智倫：政次早。謝謝政次的辛勞，上次本席在這邊質詢的時候有特別提到0403大地震之後關於很多災民，尤其是很多災民家裡有一些毀損或是財產損失可以申請災害損失的部分，我想財政部這邊也苦民所苦，第一個就是讓災害損失的部分從15萬上升到30萬。"],["李次長慶華：對，書面審核的部分。"],["張委員智倫：是書面審核。第二個是延長申報時間，從……"],["李次長慶華：1個月延長到3個月。"],["張委員智倫：1個月到3個月。請問一下，這個是0403大地震之後的一個特別臨時性措施，還是未來不管災害損失的金額跟時間部分都會延長？"],["李次長慶華：我說明一下，有關15萬提高到30萬，將來不管任何災害發生都是用這樣的標準；至於1個月延長到3個月就是看災情的狀況。這次主要是0403這樣比較重大的災害發生的時候，我們會延長他報損的期間，但是我們也授權給各個國稅局，他們到時候看災害，也許只是一個地方的災害狀況，他們也可以看看災害實際發生的狀況來延長這個期間到3個月，所以已經給他們彈性了。"],["張委員智倫：所以災害損失的部分是不包含未來有沒有因為0403的部分，未來都是有1個月到3個月。"],["李次長慶華：對，都可以有，就視災情實際上的狀況，可能讓各地方政府來做一個調整；但如果是重大災害，一定就直接延長到3個月。"],["張委員智倫：好，瞭解，所以這個部分可能還是要跟民眾稍微說明一下。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["張委員智倫：第二個部分，我要幫忙的就是最近里長都很辛勞，最近內政部也有一個新的規定，就是年終要發7萬5,000元給所有勤勞的里長，那全臺灣的里長大概有7,748位，請問一下政次有關這個部分，發的這7萬5,000塊是什麼樣的性質？"],["李次長慶華：有關它是一個什麼樣的性質，我們可能還要再去問一下內政部，如果它本身是屬於像村里長事務補助費這種性質的話，因為是用於村里長辦公室的事務還有推行政令所用，這部分是免稅的；但如果它是有點像我們軍公教人員年終獎金性質的話，這個部分就變成是個人所得，應該要依照現行的稅法規定來課稅。所以這部分可能還是要麻煩……"],["張委員智倫：政次剛剛提到非常重要的，就是年底發給里長這個7萬5,000塊的部分，當然我們身為民意代表都跟里長站在同一線，我們希望這個部分一定要來申請免稅！跟政次報告，基本上這個發放基準就是依照事務費每個月5萬塊的1.5個月，您那麼專業應該知道事務費是免稅的狀況，所以這邊也要拜託財政部，是不是要來做免稅的打算。"],["李次長慶華：這個部分我們會再洽一下主管機關內政部來釐清這個補充的性質。"],["張委員智倫：第二個，我也要跟政次拜託一下，你認為這個7萬5,000塊算不算政府給里長的贈與行為？"],["李次長慶華：贈與？通常我們不會認定是贈與。"],["張委員智倫：我在這邊也是要提醒一下，現在我們有在補助退休公務人員的三節慰問金，它依照所得稅法第四條第一項第十七款也是免稅的。所以依照這兩點，針對年底發放給里長的7萬5,000塊部分，我們希望幫它爭取是免稅的，拜託政次來協助。"],["李次長慶華：這部分我們會再洽一下內政部釐清它的性質再來做決定。"],["張委員智倫：這個會影響到7,748位里長的權益，因為每個人的所得狀況都不同，如果要納稅的話，當然我們都鼓勵大家應該合法納稅，可是這個是因為里長非常辛苦而給他這個錢。","再來，我今天要討論一個很重要的點就是關於貨物稅條例的部分，本席也要跟政次報告一下，在貨物稅條例裡面有一個非常重要的，就是與現在全國身心障礙人數超過121萬人有關的復康巴士部分，本席有提出貨物稅條例第十二條第一項第一款第二目關於大型公共汽車的部分，到今年113年年底就已經屆期了。","身心障礙巴士在新北市有500臺、服務超過17.4萬名的身心障礙朋友，所以它出勤的勤務次數很多。請教一下政次，關於身心障礙巴士的部分，是不是有機會把它延期？"],["李次長慶華：跟委員報告，目前我們已經有去洽衛福部的意見還有交通部的意見，基本上這兩個部會都認為復康巴士的免稅應該要讓它繼續延長，那這部分我們也會尊重這兩個主管機關的意見。"],["張委員智倫：不好意思，你說哪兩個單位？"],["李次長慶華：衛福部還有交通部。"],["張委員智倫：如果以財政部的角度呢？因為課稅是與你們相關。"],["李次長慶華：基本上如果主管機關的意見，因為他們會提出一些具體的意見，如果他們提出以後我們會……因為要延長還要做一次……"],["張委員智倫：所以政次你支持嗎？"],["李次長慶華：對，原則上如果稅損是有限的，而且它的稅式支出評估確實有其必要性的話，我們會支持的。"],["張委員智倫：好，因為這個稅損我算出來好像才影響幾百萬而已啦。"],["李次長慶華：不過這部分還是要麻煩主管機關提出一個稅式支出的評估報告。"],["張委員智倫：對，我還是要跟政次這邊報告，這些復康巴士很多都是公益捐贈。"],["李次長慶華：是，瞭解。"],["張委員智倫：如果捐贈人捐贈時的捐贈金額讓他負擔比較大的話……"],["李次長慶華：是，他已經繳了贈與稅。"],["張委員智倫：對，可能會影響到復康巴士，原本數量就不足，如果未來捐贈人捐贈上的負擔又比較重的時候，所以拜託政次這邊一定要大力來鼓勵、把免稅的時間給延長。"],["李次長慶華：這個我們會具體來做考量，謝謝委員。"],["張委員智倫：最後還有一點時間，最後一個問題是我上次在這邊有問過、也有質詢過的，就是現在全臺灣的老屋數量非常多，老屋建檢的費用是不是可以把它納入特別扣除額裡面的災害損失中？上次我有提過這個問題，就是因為大地震過後，所以很多的房屋有受損，全臺灣現在這麼多的老屋也急需全民一起來做老屋建檢，如果是因為地震造成房屋受損而做的建檢費用，不管是初檢或是整個檢查的部分，檢查的費用有沒有機會把它納入災害損失中？"],["李次長慶華：跟委員報告，如果真的是因為地震影響造成房屋有結構受損必須要做建檢的話，這個部分重新評估或建檢的費用其實是可以列在災害損失裡面一併來列報的，這個我們會認定。"],["張委員智倫：所以這已經確定了嗎？"],["李次長慶華：這個確定！因為災害發生，然後這個房屋受損。"],["張委員智倫：那我請問一下，你們要如何判斷它是因為災害發生？"],["李次長慶華：地方政府都會去貼黃單或紅單。"],["張委員智倫：如果沒有貼黃單、紅單的可以嗎？"],["李次長慶華：那就要核實認定吧，到時候核實認定。"],["張委員智倫：所以拜託財政部這邊還是要有一個明確的規範，因為我相信很多鄉親……過去有一些貼黃單的部分後來也發生一些事故，像花蓮的天王星。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["張委員智倫：如果從黃單變成綠單的這些還是可以定期去做老屋建檢，免得發生一些不必要的意外，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：跟委員報告，基本上如果是因為這次災害接續下來的，要報災害損失的時候他可以含括這個費用。當然，未來如果每一年他還要去支付老屋建檢費用的話，因為跟災害已經脫鉤了，那這個部分到底可不可以認定……"],["張委員智倫：沒有，政次我要跟你報告，就像我剛剛舉例的花蓮天王星，它原本是黃單轉成綠單，綠單的部分其實就是房屋越來越老舊嘛，它應該還是要定期做建檢，不能因為它已經被列回綠單，所以這個部分它的適用是比較廣泛的啦，再拜託政次這邊。"],["李次長慶華：這部分可能我們要再評估一下，看看要怎麼樣來適用。"],["張委員智倫：好，那再麻煩了，謝謝。"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：下一位質詢請許宇甄，許宇甄委員、許宇甄、許宇甄，許委員不在。","請王世堅委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1","speakers":["羅明才","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳玉珍","張智倫","王世堅","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","許宇甄","李柏毅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」\n等2案","agenda_id":"1134101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.38034375,"end":6.46034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.865343750000001,"end":12.231593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.31971875,"end":15.84284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":15.84284375,"end":37.45971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.400968750000004,"end":35.90721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":38.05034375,"end":44.85096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":44.64846875,"end":46.251593750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.985968750000005,"end":66.11346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":47.90534375,"end":49.79534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":50.50409375,"end":52.157843750000005},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":66.197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"我説明一下 這個15萬提高到30萬是一個就是將來就是說不管任何的災害發生都是用這樣的標準那至於一個月延長到三個月呢就是看災情的狀況那這一次主要是04、03比較重大的災害發生的時候我們會延長到報損的期間但是我們也授權給各個地方各個縣市各個國稅局他們到時候看災害也許只是一個地方的災害的狀況"},{"start":93.775,"end":118.44,"text":"他們也可以看待災害實際發生的狀況來延長這個期間到3個月所以已經給他們彈性了所以是可以是災害損失的部分是不包含說未來是有沒有因為0403的部分未來都是有1個月到3個月對都可以有就市災情實際上的狀況可能讓他們各地方政府來做一個調整但是如果是重大災害一定是就直接延長到3個月"},{"start":119.891,"end":146.488,"text":"所以這個部分可能還是要跟民眾稍微說明一下那第二個部分我要幫忙就是最近這個里長的部分都很辛勞那最近內政部有一個新的規定就是說在年終的部分要發七萬五千元給所有辛勞的里長那全台的里長大概有7748位那請問一下我們測這個部分這發的這個七萬五千塊它是一個什麼樣的性質"},{"start":147.964,"end":165.359,"text":"他是一個什麼樣性質我們可能還要再去問一下內政部因為如果說他本身的性質是屬於像村里長事務補助費這種性質的話那因為是用於村里長辦公室的事務還有推行政令所用這部分是免稅的"},{"start":166.34,"end":184.77,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":185.19,"end":185.97,"text":"議員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁"},{"start":212.941,"end":212.961,"text":"﹚張智倫"},{"start":230.932,"end":246.243,"text":"通常我們不會把認定是正語因為我這邊也是要提醒一下就是說依照這個退休公務人員他有現在我們有在補助他這個三節的慰問金他是依照這個所得稅法第4條第一項第17款的這個部分"},{"start":247.003,"end":247.023,"text":"﹚張智倫"},{"start":269.053,"end":289.138,"text":" ﹏﹏﹏"},{"start":289.198,"end":312.923,"text":"在這個護護稅條例裡面有一個非常重要就是有關於這個全國身心障礙人人數現在超過121萬人有關於這個富康巴士的這個部分那本期有提出這個護護稅第12條第一項第一款第二幕有關於這個汽車那個大型公共汽車這個部分從到今年113年的年底就已經"},{"start":315.923,"end":321.408,"text":"在新北市有500台服務超過17.4萬名的身心障礙朋友,所以他出勤的事數很多。請教一下政事,有關於身心障礙巴士的部分,是不是有機會把它延期?"},{"start":341.134,"end":341.354,"text":"財政部委員"},{"start":360.426,"end":378.724,"text":"對,基本上如果主管機關的意見因為他們對他們會提出一些具體的意見那如果說他們提出以後我們會因為要延長所以這是你支持嗎對,原則上我們就是如果基本上稅損是有限的而且他的稅事支出評估確實有他的必要性的話我們會支持的"},{"start":379.531,"end":395.418,"text":" ﹏﹏"},{"start":395.618,"end":396.379,"text":"拜託政事這邊一定要大力來鼓勵就是說把這個免稅的時間給延長"},{"start":414.23,"end":439.403,"text":"最後我們會聚集來做考量,謝謝,謝謝委員好,那最後還有一點時間,最後一個問題就是有關於就是上次我在這邊有問過這個,也是有質詢過的就是說現在全台灣這個老屋的數量非常的多老屋漸減的費用是不是可以把它納入這個特別扣除額裡面的災害損失中"},{"start":440.543,"end":468.585,"text":"上次我有提過這個問題因為就是因為大地震過後所以很多的房屋有受損那全台灣現在因為這麼多的老屋也急需說全民一起來做一些老屋建檢的一個部分那如果是因為這個地震所造成他的房屋受損然後他來做一個這個建檢的一個費用不管是這個初檢或是整個的檢查的部分那檢查的費用有沒有機會把它納入這個災害損失中"},{"start":468.905,"end":469.245,"text":"這已經確定了嗎"},{"start":486.195,"end":487.776,"text":"我相信很多鄉親過去我們也常說有一些貼黃單的部分後來"},{"start":516.518,"end":517.439,"text":"華林天王星黃丹綠丹老屋健檢"},{"start":545.822,"end":547.503,"text":"那這個部分到底可不可以認定﹖"}]}},{"id":"152212","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152212","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a6832b30523c8fa5a1984bf63cf92ad2af6801aa916026d4d420a24d4c92cf601975ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅明才","委員發言時間":"11:19:42 - 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11:19:26","影片長度":"00:08:24","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」等2案。\n【5月6日及8日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1"},"duration":504,"end_time":"2024-05-06T11:19:26+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T11:11:02+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":713,"blocks":[["陳委員玉珍：（11時11分）謝謝主席。主席，請次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["陳委員玉珍：次長早，辛苦了，恭喜留任，任重道遠！"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：國內的貧富差距越來越高，現在是窮更窮、富更富，現在的差距飆破66倍，相當的驚人，從109年所得分配級距與相應對之稅捐負擔比例來看，藍色線是所得分配級距，紅色線是相對應的稅捐負擔，簡單的趨勢來看，就是當所得越來越多的時候，與相對應的稅捐負擔差距也越來越大，這就是一般百姓的心聲，比如上班族、薪資，賺的每一分錢都要繳稅，窮人一分稅都跑不掉，富人賺的比較多，事實上卻沒有相對應繳比較多稅，有沒有什麼方式可以在稅制上面改革？我相信我國的富裕階層也願意多繳一點稅，為國家貢獻心力，但是在稅制上，我們有沒有什麼方式或政策來改變這樣的情形？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，其實在所得重分配這件事情上面，財政部是非常重視的，所以近幾年我們對於這些薪資所得者、中低所得者、育兒家庭有很多的減稅措施，除此之外，當然我們也希望能夠對一些所得比較高的人或財富比較充裕的人合理課稅，因此，我們也實施房地合一所得稅制以及房屋稅差別稅率2.0制度。另外，我們也在所得基本稅額條例針對一般民眾買賣未上市櫃股票的證券交易所得，也把它納入基本所得的課稅範圍，這個部分的制度改變就是希望能夠對於所得重分配這件事情有一些著墨。其實經過我們這麼多的努力，從稅的角度來看，像現在正在申報綜合所得稅，從110年度綜合所得稅申報的狀況來看，已經有305萬戶的民眾是不用繳稅的。"],["陳委員玉珍：因為現在是納稅季，根據納稅者權利保護法的規定，為了保護納稅人的權利，所以你們每年都會公布基本生活所需費用，現在是113年，要繳112年的稅。"],["李次長慶華：這個我們逐年調整。"],["陳委員玉珍：112年為20.2萬元，就是不用繳稅的門檻，這部法律於2016年12月經立法院三讀通過，同年12月28日總統公布以後，2017年12月28日開始施行，但到目前為止，沒有修訂任何一個條文，你們有沒有做什麼相關的修法討論？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，納保法從106年實施到現在，基本上它運作得也算相當順暢，有關這些……"],["陳委員玉珍：納保法第二十條規定，稅捐稽徵機關應主動提供納稅者妥適必要之協助，並以任務編組方式指定專人為納稅者權利保護官，請問目前全國的納保官是誰擔任？"],["李次長慶華：目前我們的納保官是由各稽徵機關的資深稅務同仁擔任。"],["陳委員玉珍：就是稅務局裡面的同仁擔任，所以是由稅務機關裡面的人擔任納保官，代表人民向課徵單位檢討不合理的課稅，這是不是有一點……"],["李次長慶華：我要說明一下……"],["陳委員玉珍：你要代表人民向機關檢討，然後又請那個機關擔任納保官，納保官的立場是要保護國庫，還是保護稅捐機關，還是會保護人民？你瞭解我的意思嗎？"],["李次長慶華：我瞭解。"],["陳委員玉珍：由你們自己裡面的人擔任，會不會有點球員兼裁判？"],["李次長慶華：不會，跟委員報告，為什麼是由我們稅捐機關人員任務編組來擔任納稅者權利保護官，因為現在進入納保官的這些同仁都是非常有經驗的資深同仁。"],["陳委員玉珍：我當然不否認，一定是非常瞭解的。"],["李次長慶華：而且他對稅務案件非常瞭解。"],["陳委員玉珍：像我們民代常常接受到很多民眾的陳情案，如果納保官又是由你們裡面的人擔任，很多行政處分要做課徵決定時，事實上，還是由相關的課徵機關、稅捐機關決定，又由裡面的人擔任納保官的話，這樣怎麼保護人民的權利呢？"],["李次長慶華：跟委員報告，因為這個納保官……"],["陳委員玉珍：事實上，這個部分應該可以討論修改。"],["李次長慶華：我要先跟委員報告，雖然納保官本身是由我們的稅務同仁擔任，但是他是站在一個非常客觀的立場，而且非常公平，因為他非常有經驗，所以他可以知道民眾發生什麼問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：我相信他非常有經驗……"],["李次長慶華：都可以協助解決問題。"],["陳委員玉珍：但是不是非常的客觀或公平？"],["李次長慶華：真的是很客觀、公平。"],["陳委員玉珍：主要也不是從你來看，而是要從百姓的信任度來看。"],["李次長慶華：有，委員可以去跟民間訪查一下，接受過我們納保官服務的這些納稅義務人，或是公會業者、記帳士、會計師公會，他們都覺得納保官的服務確實能夠給予他們很多的協助，而且我們針對這些服務的結果每一季都會開諮詢委員會，邀請外部的學者專家來做相關檢視，我們服務的成果會在每一年公布於機關網站，而且也有報給立法院做參考，所以這個部分我們覺得是可以禁得起檢視的。"],["陳委員玉珍：所以你覺得由你們自己來擔任是沒有什麼疑問就對了？"],["李次長慶華：我們是真的可以禁得起檢視，因為我們的納保官真的很棒。"],["陳委員玉珍：我沒有說禁不起，我是肯定這些人的專業，一定沒有問題，我是認為要從百姓的角度出發，這種信任感，你們可以思考看看，社會上有很多公正也專業的人士，也許也可以思考看看。"],["李次長慶華：好，謝謝委員。"],["陳委員玉珍：回到今天討論的制定地方特別稅的問題，現在有地方特別稅的縣市有10個，包含桃園、高雄、宜蘭、苗栗、南投、雲林、嘉義、屏東、花蓮及臺東，金門縣以前也討論過要課徵觀光稅，但是因為現在景氣非常不好，所以不可能，我們也很怕嚇走旅客。金門縣常常在討論的事情是我們的過境旅客相當多，過境旅客也許對地方有點貢獻，但貢獻還是不足，你覺得離島是不是可以考慮對過境旅客課過境捐，這個部分可以幫我們研究一下嗎？"],["李次長慶華：跟委員報告，因為地方稅法通則雖然有賦予地方可以開徵特別稅課或相關權責，但是通則第三條有特別明定，對於有關轄區外交易、流通至轄區外之天然資源或礦產品、或是有損及國家整體利益或其他地方公共利益事項是不宜課徵的。以前金門縣曾經有想過，其實不只金門縣，還有有些縣市都因為觀光的考量，有些是覺得人太多了，造成他們的污染，希望能夠對過境……"],["陳委員玉珍：我是不會建議我們要課觀光稅，因為我們的人不夠，沒有人啦！"],["李次長慶華：我知道，他們就是希望對過境能夠課徵……"],["陳委員玉珍：課了以後沒人來，這樣就不好了，但是過境的人倒是不少，而且每次只要天氣有什麼問題，機場、水頭碼頭全部都是好像變成地方政府的責任，不管過境的是誰，都會要求地方政府來負相關的責任。"],["李次長慶華：主要就是因為有這樣的限制，有幾個不能課徵的範圍。"],["陳委員玉珍：針對離島這個部分，你們做一下報告，好嗎？"],["李次長慶華：好，我們可以把這個部分的評估報告提供給委員參考。"],["陳委員玉珍：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。"],["主席（陳委員玉珍代）：接著請羅明才委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1","speakers":["羅明才","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳玉珍","張智倫","王世堅","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","許宇甄","李柏毅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」\n等2案","agenda_id":"1134101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.047843750000000004,"end":0.40221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":5.9372187499999995,"end":7.82721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.62034375,"end":9.329093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":12.434093750000002,"end":13.024718750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.497218750000002,"end":15.218468750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":15.657218750000002,"end":17.26034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.66534375,"end":18.99846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":19.53846875,"end":23.47034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":23.774093750000002,"end":29.359718750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":29.86596875,"end":32.36346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":32.51534375,"end":34.52346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":35.55284375,"end":55.127843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":55.76909375,"end":61.455968750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":61.759718750000005,"end":86.02596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.02596875,"end":154.08284375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":153.18846875,"end":153.20534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":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主席請次長請李次長委員好 次長早 辛苦了 恭喜劉任謝謝委員謝謝任重道遠 我們國內的貧富差距越來越高你看現在是窮更窮 富更富 現在差距標破66倍"},{"start":31.253,"end":41.277,"text":"109年所得分配積聚和相應對的稅捐負擔的比例這個藍色線是所得分配積聚紅色線是相應對的稅捐負擔簡單的趨勢看來就是所得越來越多的時候相應對的稅捐負擔差距越來越大"},{"start":55.814,"end":78.799,"text":"那意思就是說一般百姓的心聲比如說上班族啊薪資啊就覺得說每賺的每一分錢都要繳稅就是窮人一分錢都一分稅都跑不掉那富人賺的比較多事實上沒有相對應繳比較多稅有沒有什麼方式可以在稅制上面改革我相信我國的這個富裕階層有願意多繳一點稅為國家貢獻心力"},{"start":81.7,"end":101.045,"text":"在稅制上有沒有什麼方式、什麼政策來改變這樣的情形?報告委員,其實我們在所得存分配這件事情上面財政部是非常重視的所以近幾年除了我們之前對於這些薪資所得者還有就是中低所得者還有一些育兒家庭我們有了很多的減稅措施"},{"start":102.185,"end":129.215,"text":"之外呢當然我們也希望能夠對一些就是所得比較高的人或財富比較充裕的人我們希望能夠合理的課稅所以我們也實施了這個就是房地合一所得稅制還有房屋稅的差別稅率2.0的制度那另外我們也在所得基本稅的條例裡面呢針對這個如果是一般民眾的去買賣未上市貴股票的這個證券交易所得呢我們也把他納入我們基本所得課稅的範圍"},{"start":130.935,"end":146.026,"text":"當然這個部分的制度的改變當然希望能夠對於所得重分配這件事情能夠有一些琢磨那其實經過我們這麼多的努力其實從稅的角度來看的話像現在我們正在申報綜合所得稅我們從110年度綜合所得稅申報的狀況來看其實已經有305萬戶的民眾他是不用繳稅的"},{"start":153.391,"end":168.601,"text":"現在我們是納稅器,你們之前有過一個納稅者權利保護法,保護納稅人的權利,所以你們都會公布每年基本生活費用,112年,現在1比3繳12年,20.2萬元,就是不用繳稅的門檻,這個法律通過以後是2016年12月"},{"start":179.668,"end":199.4,"text":"我們立法院三度通過那同年12月28日總統公佈以後2017年12月28日開始實行但到目前為止沒有修訂任何一個條文那你們有沒有做什麼相關的修法討論因為我們納保法從106年實施到現在基本上因為它運作的也算相當的順暢"},{"start":200.541,"end":203.564,"text":"納保法第20條有規定稅爭機關應該主動提供納稅者妥適必要的協助並以任務編組方式指定專人為納稅者權力保護官"},{"start":220.34,"end":237.236,"text":"請問您目前全國的納稅、納保官是誰擔任?目前我們那個納保官是由我們各基金機關的資深的稅務同仁來擔任納保官。就是稅務局裡面的同仁擔任嗎?所以由稅務機關裡面的人來擔任納保官嘛,代表人民像"},{"start":238.097,"end":259.258,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":259.318,"end":282.772,"text":"會不會有點求援兼裁判?不會,其實今天要跟委員報告為什麼我們是由我們自己稅務院金官的人員任務編組來擔任這個納稅者權力保護官因為呢我們現在這個讓他進入納保官的這些同仁他都是非常有經驗的資深的人而且他對稅務案件是非常了解的"},{"start":284.153,"end":284.413,"text":"委員賴士葆"},{"start":308.607,"end":311.288,"text":"我相信非常有經驗,都可以協助解決問題。"},{"start":327.295,"end":350.503,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":350.543,"end":371.745,"text":"每一季我們都會開諮詢委員會來邀請外部的學者專家來做相關的檢視那我們服務的成果也會在每一年都會公報公布於我們這個機關的網站而且有報給立法院來做參考所以這個部分其實也可以我們是覺得值得可以檢視的可以經得起檢視的所以你覺得由你們自己來擔任是沒有什麼"},{"start":372.726,"end":386.824,"text":"我沒有說禁不起,我是肯定這些專業一定沒有問題,要從百姓的角度來出發這種信任感,我們可以思考看看,因為社會上有很多公正也專業的人士,也許也可以思考看看。"},{"start":392.048,"end":413.225,"text":"今天討論這個地方稅這個問題現在有地方特別稅的縣市有10個嘛桃園、高雄、宜蘭、苗栗南投、雲林、嘉義、屏東、花蓮跟台東啦我們金門縣已經也討論過要增這個觀光稅但是現在景氣非常不好這不可能啦因為我們很怕嚇走這個旅客啦但是我們金門縣常在討論的事情是說這個"},{"start":415.006,"end":431.844,"text":"我們的過境旅客相當多啦那也許對地方的有點貢獻但貢獻還是不足啦齁過境的這個旅客那你覺得我們旅島這個是不是可以考慮對這個過境旅客科一點過境的捐啊這一個部分你可以幫我們研究一下嗎"},{"start":432.564,"end":459.466,"text":"是各位報告因為我們地方稅法通則雖然有賦予地方可以開徵這個特別稅客或這個相關的權責但是呢因為我們這個通則的第三條有特別明定就是說對於這個有關這個轄區外的交易啊也就是流通至轄區外的天然資源或者是礦產品或者是說有損及國家整體利益或其他地方公共利益的事項是不宜克徵的"},{"start":460.026,"end":483.968,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":483.988,"end":484.008,"text":"謝謝委員﹗"}]}},{"id":"152207","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152207","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a6895ec09bbfbd4ea17310b11d8215eda9e801aa916026d4d42331455bf36bde64a5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"陳菁徽","委員發言時間":"11:00:08 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法國9.3% 德國9.5%這個公部門的醫療支出占比就看得出來長期冷血漠視把醫事人員的無私功德付出當成政績來說嘴是多麼的無情"},{"start":244.285,"end":266.04,"text":"部長在上週四跟大家講說健保點值調漲的話國庫因此會增加支出同樣的邏輯之下健保點值如果沒有調漲那麼國庫沒有增加的支出也將會讓國人用吃了虧打了折的醫療品質來承擔今天大家也可以思考一下透過我手上的這個圖表"},{"start":267.501,"end":274.623,"text":"我們看到健保總額點值一點不足一元的缺口不算去年就累積到2022年為止在醫院的缺口就有4504億點在基層的醫療院所就有886億點總計是5390億點而這些點數支出的同時是被政府"},{"start":290.188,"end":314.611,"text":"用打了七折打了八折簡單來說彷彿認為人民的健康是可以有折扣來計算的至於也將因此有打折的結果今天政府不想解決具體的表現呢也將反映在小病就醫看診方便但是癌症大病治不好慢性病活不久這樣子的事實上"},{"start":315.592,"end":342.418,"text":"我們最新在去年8月公布了2022年國人平均壽命是79.84歲其中男性76歲女性83歲已經遠遠比日本韓國還來的低各國都非常重視國民的平均餘命是衡量這個國家基本健康標準而我們透過我們健保制度的運作不妨看一下我手上這張圖表大家真的不要再自瞞"},{"start":343.198,"end":354.676,"text":"什麼叫做醫療服務第一名應該要更用開放的心胸去看思考一下為什麼我們還不能在平均愚民的提升上能有進一步的空間"},{"start":356.385,"end":382.972,"text":"雪漢醫護影響病患的權益 背後的原因來自於健保點值的浮動 長期的低落不足而給付表面上是醫界吃虧沒錯 醫護人員吃虧 但實際上間接影響的到醫療品質真正危害的是全國人民的健康 甚至健康於命 癌症5年存活率 新生兒死亡率都遠遠的低於OECD其他國家"},{"start":384.833,"end":403.853,"text":"為了沒有辦法給醫事員合理待遇 多少年來護理師錢少事多回家晚必須輪三班 離職率居高不下 人手不足導致護病比過低嚴重的影響我們住院品質 他們頻繁的加班導致身心俱疲"},{"start":404.634,"end":431.192,"text":"二性循環下離職率更高最後只得縮減病床關閉病房導致急診等住院的病人無法住院這個現在已經是現在進行式的人間煉獄根據國際護理學會統計臺灣護理人員平均職業的壽命只有6到7年為亞洲國家最低跟歐美國家超過20年以上的職業年資是天壤之別"},{"start":431.812,"end":447.519,"text":"因此我也要在這邊呼籲我們所有的朝野委員健保點值打折就是人民健康打折我希望大家可以一起用實質的回應來面對我們醫事委員非常迫切的期待謝謝大家"}]}},{"id":"152203","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152203","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a680b2dbfcfbbc3eb0f84bf63cf92ad2af6801aa916026d4d42a70d2b13d237a2c95ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"張宏陸","委員發言時間":"10:56:30 - 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謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152202","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152202","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a6892941117215ad4ee84bf63cf92ad2af6801aa916026d4d423938edc67c6d0a155ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王鴻薇","委員發言時間":"10:46:32 - 10:56:17","影片長度":"00:09:45","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」等2案。\n【5月6日及8日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1"},"duration":585,"end_time":"2024-05-06T10:56:17+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T10:46:32+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":646,"blocks":[["王委員鴻薇：（10時46分）謝謝主席，我請政務次長李次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["王委員鴻薇：還有賦稅署署長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好。"],["王委員鴻薇：次長好、署長好。我延續一下剛才李坤城委員所詢問的，這個部分確實非常重要，就是有關公共運輸貨物稅的部分。剛剛聽起來有關電動的部分，因為有一整套有關電動車的部分可以繼續減免，油電的部分則是減半，由原來的免貨物稅變成減半，是這樣嗎？"],["李次長慶華：是，因為現行條例對油電也是減半課徵。"],["王委員鴻薇：現在就是減半？"],["李次長慶華：對，現在就是減半。"],["王委員鴻薇：所以它可以繼續的減半？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：那低底盤公車的部分呢？"],["李次長慶華：關於低底盤公車，因為它現在基本上都是往電動公共汽車發展，所以它應該會走到電動公共汽車的範圍，我們目前看到很多……"],["王委員鴻薇：但如果它不是電動車的話，就沒有辦法減免了嗎？"],["李次長慶華：是，目前交通部並沒有建議我們繼續給它免稅。"],["王委員鴻薇：好，但是低底盤公車臺北市非常多，臺北市算是公車路線多，而且服務品質也都達到一定水準，低底盤公車一直是城市文明的象徵，其實我建議不管低底盤公車它是屬於用電動車，當然這是我們的政策，或者它是非電動車，我覺得都應該給它一些租稅上的減免，因為無論如何，尤其以臺北市來說，我們老年化的程度真的是越來越高。","接下來也要跟次長及署長討論一下，剛才李坤城委員也特別提到我們目前有一些租稅的減免優惠，到了今年它就出現落日，現在看起來，有的可能比較有一致性，但是有一些可能兩派有不同的意見。因為次長會留任，我想署長應該也暫時不會異動，包括部長也會留任，雖然他現在人不在，但我想請問一下當沖的部分，剛才也特別提到當沖降稅主要是金管會希望能夠繼續延長五年，但是上一次主計總處在4月底公布貧富差距擴大到66.9倍，非常明顯的是，今天如果是資本利得的部分，靠錢滾錢的人，他就很容易賺錢，但如果你是靠死薪水的薪資所得者或者是勞動所得者，事實上很難翻身，所以前20%跟後20%差距到66.9倍，我覺得這個非常、非常震撼。我覺得非常遺憾的是這個報告並沒有得到舊政府或新政府的高度重視，我沒有看到我們針對未來的政策可以做些什麼樣的改變？就當沖稅的部分，我覺得今天當沖稅率的減免如果已經到了落日，今年年底還要繼續調降的話，它的訴求是什麼？論述是什麼？難道我們繼續要去鼓勵資本所得，然後我們並沒有給予勞動所得者一定的優惠？在股市上，大家在做航海王，上沖下洗、上沖下洗。","另外，我也提供一些可能金管會沒有跟大家講的事情。事實上，如果看到右邊我們上市櫃當沖成交金額及占比，因為在2017年的時候，我們提出了當沖稅率的下降，你可以看到，當沖的金額從105年的2.6兆，到106年就暴增到6.9兆，107年繼續地增加到12.3兆，然後接下來因為每一年就一直延長、一直延長，延長的結果是，在110年的時候甚至高達47.7兆，所以我們當沖的金額及當沖的占比相較於總體交易的金額及總體的占比都大幅地提高。","如果我們今天是要鼓勵大家多多地去交易股票、上沖下洗，鼓勵大家當航海王，我們也知道很多的小資族因為覺得可能有賺頭，可能在上班的時候也在進出股市，這個鼓勵事實上已經完全達到了。數字會說話。","我很少表態。你知道對於民代來講，最好都是減稅，如果要加稅，民代都不願意表態，但是我願意來這邊表態。我覺得如果以鼓勵來看，從金額及占比，你們都可以告訴金管會：還要怎樣？你要讓它飛上天了嗎？","第二個很重要的是，在臺股當沖的金額一直創紀錄的狀況下，股民到底有沒有獲利？請金管會給你這個資料。左邊的圖是2021、2022、2023年扣除掉所有證交稅、手續費這些相關的成本，股民整體平均來講，有賺嗎？有賺嗎？財政部可以告訴金管會，有沒有賺？"],["李次長慶華：看委員這份統計資料，應該是到2023年好像是虧損的。"],["王委員鴻薇：都是沒有賺的，都是虧損的啦！其實都進了國庫，誰賺？說實在，你們財政部在賺啦！真的是財政部在賺啦！我跟你說，你們雖然反對，但是財政部在賺，股民沒有在賺。","我再給你一個最新的數據，這可能是很多航海王、當沖的股票族不知道的事情。2023年當沖的收益金額衰退了，因為大家覺得花那麼多的時間及成本殺進殺出，也沒有賺多少，所以衰退了兩成之多。然後在2023年扣除手續費及相關的交易稅成本之後，全年當沖客慘賠239億，平均每一戶賠24萬。","所以我要講的是，金管會希望能夠維持股市的榮景，財政部在反對，其實今天如果財政部只管收稅的話，應該覺得很高興，繼續沖啊、沖啊，對不對？反正你們收稅就好了，反正政府是最大的莊家。可是我覺得很多的稅收今天是鼓勵的性質，如果鼓勵已經達到目標，而且超目標了，請問它繼續延長的道理是什麼？你們要讓金管會說清楚、講明白，金管會不能只為了維持股市上的榮景就這樣子。另外還有賺的是什麼呢？就是交易商嘛！券商賺嘛！大家一直沖、一直沖，他們管大家是賺是賠啊！反正手續費一直賺、一直賺，你們的稅一直收、一直收。所以我覺得你們要把這些事情說清楚、講明白，告訴很多的股民。","我們不是不照顧股民，大家當沖了老半天，都虧嘛！你看，2023年虧了239億，前年虧300億，更前年（2021年）虧435億，事實上被宰的是誰？被宰的是這些投資戶嘛！所以有很多你們要講清楚、說明白，論述要站穩，而且很多稅制需要改革，我覺得我們的政策不要太偏向一直在鼓勵資本所得者，跟薪資所得者相較，兩邊的差距實在是不夠均衡，同不同意？"],["李次長慶華：委員提供的這些數據，我們一定會列入評估的參考，其實我們也都有要求金管會提供這些資料給我們作為到底要不要評估……"],["王委員鴻薇：我告訴你，金管會要爭取，它不會告訴你這些，今天我告訴你這些……"],["李次長慶華：不過我們還是持續請它提供這些資料，因為畢竟是我們希望當沖交易稅要不要延長，我們也不希望對……"],["王委員鴻薇：我告訴你，它不願意提供的資料，我提供給你了，是不是？"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員。"],["王委員鴻薇：金管會會不會提供這些資料給你？因為它要繼續降嘛，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：可是基於它是產業主管機關的立場，它還是要提供給我們。"],["王委員鴻薇：是呀，但是我覺得未來你們跟它debate的時候，這些資料事實上是很有效的。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["王委員鴻薇：要說服股民，謝謝。"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。現場張宏陸委員質詢完就休息10分鐘。","請張宏陸委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1","speakers":["羅明才","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳玉珍","張智倫","王世堅","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","許宇甄","李柏毅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」\n等2案","agenda_id":"1134101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":8.83971875,"end":11.556593750000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":11.708468750000002,"end":12.56909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":13.176593750000002,"end":14.661593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":14.914718750000002,"end":16.83846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":17.98596875,"end":18.49221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.812843750000003,"end":19.72409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":25.191593750000003,"end":60.94971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":50.75721875,"end":51.516593750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":54.41909375,"end":55.88721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.080968750000004,"end":58.33409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.367843750000006,"end":58.53659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.439093750000005,"end":69.21846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.40409375,"end":71.02409375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":69.55596875,"end":69.92721875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":70.11284375000001,"end":74.65221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":74.65221875,"end":77.97659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":77.97659375,"end":79.91721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":79.91721875,"end":79.93409375},{"sp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?因為油電的條例對油電也是減半課程"},{"start":54.006,"end":78.375,"text":"現在就是減辦?所以他可以繼續的做減辦?那低頂牌公車的部分呢?低頂牌公車因為他現在基本上都是往電動公共汽車發展所以他應該會走到電動公共汽車的範圍但是如果他不是電動車的話就沒有辦法去做減免了嗎?目前就是可能交通部他並沒有建議我們繼續給他免稅"},{"start":80.797,"end":99.216,"text":"但是這個就是像地底盤公車我們台北市非常多我們台北市算是公車的路線而且其實服務的這個品質也都達到一定那地底盤公車一直是城市文明的一個象徵其實我會希望建議不管地底盤公車他是屬於用電動車當然這個是我們的政策"},{"start":101.158,"end":101.198,"text":"﹑王鴻薇"},{"start":116.468,"end":137.387,"text":"也要跟這個次長跟署長來討論一下剛才呢李昆政委員也特別提到的我們目前有一些租稅的減免優惠呢到了今年他就是應該出現落日那麼現在看起來呢有的可能會有比較一致性但是有一些可能兩派不同的意見那麼因為"},{"start":139.269,"end":154.227,"text":"市長會留任嗎?我想署長應該也暫時不會異動那部長也會留任雖然他現在人不在那我想請問一下當沖的部分剛才有特別當沖主要是金管會來希望說能夠繼續延長5年"},{"start":156.169,"end":180.191,"text":"但是我覺得在上一次主計處4月底公佈的資本就是有關於我們的貧富差距擴大到66.9倍那麼非常明顯的是就是你今天如果是資本利得的部分你靠錢滾錢的人他就很容易賺錢但是如果你是靠死薪水"},{"start":180.851,"end":207.569,"text":"新資所得者或者是你依照勞動所得者事實上很難翻身所以前20%跟後20%差距到66.9倍那我覺得這個其實非常非常震撼那我覺得非常遺憾的是這個報告並沒有得到現在不管是舊政府也好新政府的高度重視我沒有看到我們針對未來的政策也可以做些什麼樣改變"},{"start":210.011,"end":224.924,"text":"當沖稅的部分,其實我覺得如果今天當沖的稅率的減免,如果繼續的已經到了一個落日今年年底還要繼續調降的話,那它的"},{"start":226.389,"end":255.298,"text":"訴求是什麼?他的論述是什麼?難道我們繼續要去鼓勵資本所得然後我們並沒有對勞動所得者給他一定的優惠在股市上大家在做航海王啊上沖下洗上沖下洗那另外我也提供一些可能金管會沒有去跟大家所講的事情市上我們現在我們如果看到右邊我們上市櫃的當沖的成交比額及佔比"},{"start":256.238,"end":270.027,"text":"因為在2017年的時候我們提出了當沖稅率的下降那麼你可以看到從105年當沖的金額從2.6兆到106年就暴增到6.9兆107年繼續的增加到12.3兆然後接下來因為每一年就一直延長一直延長延長的結果我們這幾年在110年的時候甚至高達到47.7兆"},{"start":286.278,"end":303.128,"text":"所以就是說我們當沖的金額跟當沖的占比都占總體的交易的金額跟總體的占比大幅的提高所以如果今天我們是要鼓勵我們今天如果是要鼓勵大家多多的去交易股票"},{"start":304.308,"end":315.051,"text":"上沖下洗鼓勵大家當航海王我們也知道很多的小資族因為他覺得可能有賺頭可能在上班的時候也在那邊進去出來這個鼓勵事實上已經完全達到了"},{"start":321.205,"end":346.157,"text":"數字會說話所以我今天也是希望我很少表態你都知道其實對於民代來講最好都是減稅如果要加稅民代都不願意表態但是我願意來在這邊做表態我覺得如果以鼓勵的話從金額跟佔比你們都可以告訴金管會還要怎樣你要讓它飛上天了嗎第二個很重要的"},{"start":346.997,"end":374.574,"text":"在台股當初的金額一直在創紀錄的狀況下,股民到底有沒有獲利嗎?請金管會來給你這個資料啊這個是左邊的圖2021、2022、2023扣除掉所有相關的證交稅手續費這些相關的成本股民整體平均來講有賺嗎?有賺嗎?財政部可以告訴金管會有沒有賺?"},{"start":376.446,"end":397.947,"text":"看委員這份統計資料應該是到2023年都是沒有賺的啦!都是沒有在虧損的啦!其實都進國庫誰賺?說實在你們財政部在賺啊!真的財政部在賺啊!我跟你說你們雖然反對但是財政部在賺!股民沒有在賺!好然後我再給你一個最新的數據"},{"start":400.206,"end":419.623,"text":"這可能是很多的航海王當沖的股票族他們不知道的事情我們以2023年當沖的收益金額衰退了因為大家覺得我這樣子這麼花那麼多的時間跟那麼多成本殺進殺出殺進殺出也沒有賺多少所以衰退了兩成之多"},{"start":420.524,"end":428.387,"text":"然後在2023年扣除手續費跟相關的交易稅成本之後,全年當沖客慘賠239億,平均每一戶賠24萬。"},{"start":437.947,"end":452.394,"text":"平均每戶賠24萬所以我也講說其實我不曉得金管會金管會因為希望能夠維持股市的榮景那你們財政部在反對其實我今天財政部如果我只管收稅的話我應該覺得很高興啊繼續衝啊衝啊對不對反正我再收稅就好啦"},{"start":455.735,"end":478.358,"text":"反正政府是最大的莊家可是我覺得從我們在很多的稅收如果你今天是一個鼓勵的性質如果他的鼓勵已經達到你的目標而且超目標了那請問他繼續延長的道理是什麼你們要讓金管會說清楚講明白金管會不能為了他只是維持他股市上的榮景"},{"start":479.139,"end":500.211,"text":"就這樣子。然後另外還要賺的是什麼呢?那就是交易商嘛。券商賺嘛。你們一直衝一直衝管你是賺是賠啊。反正我手續費一直賺一直賺。你們的稅一直收一直收。所以我覺得你們把這些事情說清楚講明白。告訴我們很多的股民。我們不是不照顧股民。"},{"start":500.771,"end":521.124,"text":"你們當沖老半天,你們都虧嘛,你看2023年虧239億,前年虧300億,更前年2021虧你435億,事實上是載的是誰?載的是這些投資戶嘛,所以這點我覺得有很多你們把它講清楚說明白,你的認數數把它站穩。"},{"start":523.882,"end":524.062,"text":"同不同意?"},{"start":541.504,"end":566.387,"text":"委員提供的這些數據我們一定會列入我們跟那個就是評估的參考其實這些我們也都有跟金管會要求他們提供這些資料給我們做為就是到底到底要不要評估金管會要爭取他不會告訴你這些嗎不過我們還是持續要請他提供這些資料因為這畢竟是我們希望我們這個當分教室要不要延長我告訴你嘛他不願意提供的資料我提供給你了是不是"},{"start":567.488,"end":567.509,"text":"謝謝委員長"}]}},{"id":"152201","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152201","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a68a5043d903570c5d9993287635c0a127b801aa916026d4d424452f77ff8315bb45ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯建銘","委員發言時間":"09:07:52 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謝謝主席那今天我想民進黨所提的這個國會閹割法案還有民進黨這個今天的所有的一個程序內容我倒是有一個對民進黨的一個很重要的一個建議為什麼呢因為我非常喜歡引用民進黨過去的意識慣例"},{"start":32.435,"end":53.82,"text":"那先不講遠的啦,遠的民進黨什麼五分鐘停止討論,三會進覆二讀,比比皆是,斑斑可考。那現在民進黨少數了,然後如果說今天提案停止討論,就是不民主。民進黨五分鐘停止討論就民主。國民黨今天覺得討論的差不多,停止討論就不民主。"},{"start":54.81,"end":83.112,"text":"然後民進黨過去想要表決的案子想要審的議案近乎二讀已經變成一個立法院的常態在民進黨多數的時候國民黨近乎二讀就是犯天條大罪一樁但是在這邊這些過去的種種就先當過去史但至少今天談到國會改革國民黨率先提出國會改革法案"},{"start":84.279,"end":110.992,"text":"幾乎是這一次的會期一開議我們就提出來了然後開議提出來之後也收到社會廣泛的針對國民黨提案的國會改革法案有很多的討論民進黨有很多的指教啦大體上就一直講說你的社會溝通不夠啊大家對你的了解不夠啊你的提案內容大家不清楚啊對不對那你這樣子討論的話是不是資訊不夠詳細啊"},{"start":113.772,"end":122.461,"text":"結果我們就有一位非常民主的吳宗憲召委擔任主席的時候民進黨的意見他非常尊重排了一場專報就針對國民黨的國會改革法案排一場專報開了一場公聽會還是不夠結果我們的民進黨要求加開公聽會"},{"start":136.079,"end":155.21,"text":"這個要求提出來之後,吳宗憲召委覺得這個改締得非常好啊。所以呢,馬上就延期兩個禮拜,本來都要進行逐條討論了。國民黨為了等民進黨,我們的版本等了兩個禮拜,就是讓中嘉賓委員有機會再多開兩場公聽會。"},{"start":157.804,"end":185.751,"text":"對,三場公聽會再加上一場專案報告。當然中央兵委員講說這兩場公聽會國民黨版本那個民進黨版本有討論。錯!那兩個版本你在4月3號的吳宗憲召開的時候民進黨版本根本沒出來。4月10號跟4月11號召開那兩場民進黨版本還在復一期。實際上只列為參考資料。大家回去看公聽會啦都在講國民黨的。我建議很簡單啦。"},{"start":187.091,"end":190.982,"text":"很簡單啦!民進黨齁!用民進黨回力標打自己啦!"},{"start":192.222,"end":218.508,"text":"繼然溝通這麼重要國會改革如此神聖國民黨為了應和民進黨的溝通重要國會改革神聖三場公聽會加一場專報我也拜託民進黨我們主席啊能不能從善如流啊從民進黨至善如流啊三場公聽會舉辦完一場專報舉辦完之後再來審查資訊充分比較重要啦民進黨最民主我們要效法民進黨以上"}]}},{"id":"152198","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152198","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a68925d1503e29d0b0484bf63cf92ad2af6801aa916026d4d4276863d041742db315ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"李坤城","委員發言時間":"10:37:00 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10:46:21","影片長度":"00:09:21","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」等2案。\n【5月6日及8日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1"},"duration":561,"end_time":"2024-05-06T10:46:21+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T10:37:00+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":558,"blocks":[["李委員坤城：（10時37分）謝謝主席，我們請財政部李次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員好！"],["李委員坤城：次長好！財政部是難得包含部長及次長還繼續留在原崗位繼續奮鬥的單位，所以很多政策應該可以繼續，不管是延續下去或是等一下回答的時候，應該比較能夠有具體的答案。","本席先請教一下次長，113年（今年）到期的租稅減免至少有3個，其中1個就是中小企業加薪減稅，這個條例上個禮拜在經濟委員會有做審查，據我瞭解，經濟委員會的委員認為誘因不夠，就是你們認為要增訂增僱中高齡及高齡勞工適用150%的加成減除率，還有提高薪資費用減除率到150%，很多委員都認為這樣子誘因是不夠，希望把這個加成減除率再提高，提高到180%、200%，甚至250%都有。本席想先請教一下，到底你們有沒有算過，本來是130%，現在到150%，或是再提高的話，每個級距大概稅損是多少，你們有沒有算過？"],["李次長慶華：這個跟委員報告，我們有算過，照目前院版的部分，大概損失……"],["李委員坤城：院版是150%。"],["李次長慶華：對，但是如果要再提高的話，目前委員會已經決議，就是由經濟部再去按照不同的加成比率去計算他的稅收損失，而且要……"],["李委員坤城：稅損不是你們這邊也會知道嗎？"],["李次長慶華：沒有，因為我們的稅式支出評估報告一向都是由產業主管機關來做評估……"],["李委員坤城：所以你們這邊也沒有數字……"],["李次長慶華：對、對、對。"],["李委員坤城：譬如150%到180%到200%，稅損會多少就不知道。"],["李次長慶華：目前由經濟部在精算，他們會仔細地去計算，而且會提出……"],["李委員坤城：所以這150%是你們提出來的版本，還是經濟部？"],["李次長慶華：沒有，是我們跟經濟部一起在行政院討論、會同決定的結果。"],["李委員坤城：好，那130%到150%，稅損是多少呢？"],["李次長慶華：大概是2億左右。"],["李委員坤城：2億左右。"],["李次長慶華：對，2億左右。"],["李委員坤城：其實按照比例上去，那個數字也差不了多少吧！"],["李次長慶華：就是金額應該不是太大啦！金額應該不是太大。"],["李委員坤城：對啊！金額不是太大，難怪相關的提案委員認為既然稅損的金額不大的話，其實誘因要增加，所以我看當初討論的內容，150%到200%都有，如果按照這樣子，130%到150%是2億多的話，如果到180%或是到200%的話，大概3、4億，4億多，4、5億吧！"],["李次長慶華：委員，不過因為我們這次修法其實很重要的一點就是因為原來的中小企業發展條例有一個減稅措施的啟動門檻……"],["李委員坤城：這個我支持啦，你們把景氣的這個門檻廢除掉……"],["李次長慶華：因為我們這次整個大幅度刪除以後，幾乎所有的中小企業都可以適用……"],["李委員坤城：這個我支持，那個……"],["李次長慶華：所以那個加成的比例才會……"],["李委員坤城：這個也是誘因之一，不然我看你們過去的資料，啟動的次數只有一次或是兩次，很少啦！我也希望不分朝野大家難得有這種共識，其實那個誘因要再增加的話，加成的比例應該要再提高一點啦！我想進入朝野協商大概150%以上是跑不掉，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：對，各位委員都是希望再提高啦！"],["李委員坤城：對。剛剛講的部分比較急，是到5月19日對嗎？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["李委員坤城：證交稅當沖減半是到年底，金管會也有送出資料了，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["李委員坤城：財政部現在的看法怎麼樣？"],["李次長慶華：因為證交稅當沖降稅的措施有它的歷史背景……"],["李委員坤城：當然。"],["李次長慶華：因為當時在105年的時候，整個證券交易市場","的成交值幾乎降到1,000億以下，所以那時候提出了那個措施……"],["李委員坤城：好，那我先講它的效果，因為金管會也有提出它的效果……"],["李次長慶華：提出了這個措施以後，因為又延長了一次，現在市場上的成交值每天都到五、六千億，是不是要繼續延長、是不是要維持原來當沖降稅的一些措施，這個部分我們還是會請金管會提供一些比較具體的數據以及具體的效益。"],["李委員坤城：我看他們都有把數據提供給你們了。"],["李次長慶華：對，但是委員……"],["李委員坤城：不論是證交稅的增加，或是交易量的成長都有啦！"],["李次長慶華：對，但是不能只看證交稅的稅收增加或者是成交值的增加，因為當沖降稅有另外一個負面的評估是認為它對我們租稅公平還有對投機市場造成整個就業市場投機的因素……"],["李委員坤城：這個當然是財政部要考量的。"],["李次長慶華：對，這個我們要考量。"],["李委員坤城：金管會有金管會考量的部分，財政部有財政部考量的部分，我相信這個最後應該要由新的院長來做決定，因為這個有點是政策性的決定。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["李委員坤城：兩邊的資料我都看過，其實都有道理，對於財政部來講的話，當然第一個是不希望把它變成常態化，第二個就是稅收也不希望再減，這大概是你們的立場，我相信你們和金管會應該會再跟新的院長報告，因為這是由政策來決定。"],["李次長慶華：對，這個我們一定會跟院方報告。"],["李委員坤城：好。第三個，有關貨物稅條例，本來低底盤公共汽車、天然氣公共汽車、油電混合動力公共汽車、電動公共汽車、身心障礙者、復康巴士都免徵貨物稅到年底對不對？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["李委員坤城：那現在呢？交通部有跟你們提到上述我所說的這一些，不管是跟長照有關係的，或是跟節能減碳有關係的，這些貨物稅的免徵是到年底結束，有沒有機會再延長？"],["李次長慶華：這部分我們已經有請交通部表示意見，因為他們是這些大巴士的主管機關，另外還有衛福部我們也有請他們表示意見。基本上，交通部目前的考量是認為公共汽車已經逐漸電動化了，而且業者購買電動公共汽車本來就可以依照貨物稅條例第十二條之六享有電動車減徵或免徵貨物稅的措施，所以目前交通部是比較傾向於不延長這些大型電動公共汽車的減稅措施及實施年限，但是有關復康巴士以及載運輪椅所使用的這些車輛，衛福部跟交通部都希望我們繼續延長它的免稅。"],["李委員坤城：所以我剛才講的就是只有身心障礙者的復康巴士免徵貨物稅？"],["李次長慶華：對。"],["李委員坤城：那其他的呢？"],["李次長慶華：因為那個現行就可以用電動車免稅的相關優惠。"],["李委員坤城：可是同性質的貨物稅條例第十二條之三是針對電動車，為什麼電動車就可以延長四年？"],["李次長慶華：因為它的電動車範圍不限於大型公共巴士，它是包含所有的電動機車、電動小客車……"],["李委員坤城：我的意思是說它為什麼要延長電動車減免貨物稅？"],["李次長慶華：就是這邊延長了，所以那邊不延長。這邊還是可以用的，它還是可以適用這個東西……"],["李委員坤城：它可以適用？"],["李次長慶華：對，它可以適用。"],["李委員坤城：沒有啊，它是一般的電動車啊！"],["李次長慶華：但是那個電動車……"],["李委員坤城：那有包含天然氣公共汽車嗎？油電混合動力……"],["李次長慶華：那也是包含了，電動的大客車都包含在裡面。"],["李委員坤城：什麼？"],["李次長慶華：包含了電動型的大客車，大型公車、公共汽車都包含在裡面。"],["李委員坤城：所以我剛才講的天然氣公共汽車、油電混合動力公共汽車、電動公共汽車都含在這裡面嗎？"],["李次長慶華：主要是電動的。"],["李委員坤城：電動的？就是電動公共汽車是不是？"],["李次長慶華：對。"],["李委員坤城：油電就沒有了？天然氣就沒有了？"],["李次長慶華：因為大部分的公共巴士目前都是往電動公共汽車來發展，所以油電車已經不是我們現在獎勵的範圍。"],["李委員坤城：現在只有電動車、電動公共汽車可以減免貨物稅就對了？"],["李次長慶華：對，完全免稅。但是油電混合車可以減半課徵，它還是有減半課徵的相關規定。"],["李委員坤城：好，遊覽車客運商業同業公會他們有提出陳情，因為遊覽車具有大眾運輸的功能，希望能夠比照免徵貨物稅，不知道你們有沒有收到這份陳情函？"],["李次長慶華：遊覽車是不是屬於大眾運輸的車輛，可能要請交通部來做一些評估，因為有關發展大眾運輸條例所稱的大眾運輸，它是指有固定的路線、固定的班次、固定的場站以及固定的費率，或者是中央主管機關核定的特殊服務方式，提供偏遠離島地區的特殊服務公共運輸設施，至於遊覽車是不是符合大眾運輸的……"],["李委員坤城：所以你的意思是說這個可能要由交通部來認定就對了？"],["李次長慶華：對，需要由交通部來認定。"],["李委員坤城：好，我先請教到這邊，因為時間已經到了。"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員。"],["李委員坤城：謝謝次長、謝謝主席。"],["主席：謝謝，接著請王鴻薇委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1","speakers":["羅明才","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳玉珍","張智倫","王世堅","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","許宇甄","李柏毅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」\n等2案","agenda_id":"1134101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":2.86596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":3.10221875,"end":3.8109687500000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":6.915968750000001,"end":6.93284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":6.93284375,"end":7.52346875000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支付評估報告一向都是由產業主管機關來做評估所以你們這邊也沒有數字比如說150到180到200"},{"start":115.689,"end":138.646,"text":"稅損會多少就不知道目前還由經濟部在精算那他們會仔細的去計算而且會提出他們的造成的預期效益所以這150是你們提出來的版本還是經濟部沒有我們跟經濟部一起在行政院討論會同決定的結果好那130到150那稅損是多少呢大概是2億左右那其實按照比例上去大概那個數字也差不多多少吧就是金融應該不是太大了"},{"start":138.966,"end":158.31,"text":"對阿,金額不是太大,難怪這個相關的提案委員認為說這個金額竟然稅稅的金額不大的話那其實又硬要增加,那這個到所以我看那個當初的討議的這個內容150到200都有那如果按照這樣子130到150是2億多的話那如果到180或是到這個"},{"start":161.711,"end":161.831,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":186.833,"end":187.053,"text":"李坤城議員"},{"start":207.17,"end":231.204,"text":"我想這個進入草野協商,那大概150以上是跑不掉啦,對不對?客人都是希望再提高啦。對對對對。好,那第二個是,因為這個剛才是比較解釋到5月20號,5月19號。是。好,那這個政交稅當初減半,這是到年底,那金管會也有送出資料嘛,對不對?那這個財政部現在的看法怎麼樣?"},{"start":232.129,"end":250.388,"text":"財政部基本上是當然因為證交稅這個當初降稅的措施它有它的歷史背景啦當然對因為當時真的在105年那時候我們的整個證券交易市場的成交值幾乎降到1000億以下那我先講說它的效果啦因為金管會也有提出它的效果"},{"start":251.128,"end":279.498,"text":"提出這個措施以後因為又延長了一次那現在我們的市場上的成交日子已經將近每天都到五、六千億那是不是要繼續延長那是不是要維持原來當沖降稅的一些措施這部分我們還是會請金管會提供一些比較具體的數據還有具體的這個效益我看他數據都有提供給你們了不論是這個增加稅的這個增加或是說這個教練的成長都有啦"},{"start":280.098,"end":300.675,"text":"對,幹事委員因為他不能只看他的證交稅的稅收增加或者是說他的成交值的增加因為當初這樣稅有另外一個負面的評估是認為覺得他對我們這個租稅公平還有對這個投機市場造成這個投機的因素對,所以這個我們要考量儘管會考量的部分財政部有財政部考量的部分那這個齁"},{"start":303.297,"end":331.002,"text":"我相信應該是最後要由新的院長來做決定因為這個是有點政策性的決定因為兩邊的資料我都看過那其實都有道理那對於這個財政部來講的話當然是不希望說第一個把它變成常態化那第二個就是說這個稅收也不希望再減這大概是你們的立場那所以說這個我是相信這個你們應該會跟這個金管會再跟新的院長再做報告因為這個是政策的決定"},{"start":333.22,"end":357.65,"text":"第三個,這也是年底要到了,就是有關我們貨物稅的條例。貨物稅條例本來在低底盤公共汽車、天然氣公共汽車、油電混合動力公共汽車、電動公共汽車、身心障礙者、復康巴士都免徵貨物稅到年底。現在交通部有跟你們提到說,上次我提到的這些"},{"start":358.206,"end":358.646,"text":"李坤城委員"},{"start":366.806,"end":384.551,"text":"因為是到年底結束嘛有沒有機會再延長?這部分我們已經有請交通部表示意見因為他是有我們這些大巴士的主管機關還有衛福部我們也有請他們表示意見基本上交通部目前的考量是認為說公共汽車目前已經逐漸電動化了而且我們業者去購買這個電動的公共汽車本來就可以依照我們貨物稅條例12條之6他就有電動車減徵或免徵貨物稅的措施"},{"start":396.334,"end":422.37,"text":"所以目前交通部是比較傾向說不延長這些大型電動公共汽車的減稅措施還有它的實施年限但是呢有關復康巴士還有就是載運輪椅使用的這些車輛的部分呢衛福部跟交通部都希望我們就繼續延長它的免稅所以我剛才講的是就是只有身心障礙者的復康巴士免徵貨物稅對是那其他的"},{"start":423.05,"end":443.138,"text":"因為那個他現行就可以用我們那個電動車免稅的相關優惠那可是這個同性質的貨物稅條例12之3條啊那個電動車那為什麼電動車就可以延長就是延長4年為什麼因為那個他的電動車範圍是不限於那個大型的公共巴士他是所有的包含電動機車電動小客車是啊我聽人家說因為他為什麼要延長這個電動車減免貨物稅"},{"start":448.66,"end":464.411,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":464.591,"end":465.152,"text":"主要是電動公共汽車"},{"start":480.834,"end":501.687,"text":"就是電動公共汽車,是不是?油電就沒有了?因為現在我們大部分的公共巴士目前都是往這個電動公共汽車來發展。對,那現在只有電動公共汽車可以減免公共稅就對了?對,完全免稅,但是油電混合車它是可以減半課徵。"},{"start":503.268,"end":504.409,"text":"因為遊覽車是屬於大眾運輸的車輛,可能要請交通部來做一些評估"},{"start":525.61,"end":549.386,"text":"有關這個發展大眾運輸條例所稱的大眾運輸它是指有固定的路線、固定的班次還有固定的場站、還有固定的費率或者是說中央主管就要合併的特殊服務方式提供偏遠離島這些地區的特殊服務的公共運輸設施遊覽車是不是符合這個大眾運輸的"},{"start":552.748,"end":559.816,"text":"所以你的意思是說,這個還要由交通部來做認定就對了?對,是要由交通部來認定。好,我先請教到這邊,因為時間已經到了。"}]}},{"id":"152197","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152197","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a6835abacf4b5c57dd7fa89b0cb15358265801aa916026d4d42070cd130e3b79eff5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"羅美玲","委員發言時間":"10:42:34 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10:36:41","影片長度":"00:10:11","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」等2案。\n【5月6日及8日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1"},"duration":611,"end_time":"2024-05-06T10:36:41+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T10:26:30+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":498,"blocks":[["李委員彥秀：（10時26分）謝謝召委，我請李政次。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員早安。"],["李委員彥秀：次長早，你們大概是所有部會裡面少數沒有交接問題的，這也顯示出，就賴政府卓團隊的整個內閣來說，對於你們過去財政的穩健狀況、對於三位從部長到兩位政次其實是肯定的。但是對於另外一方面、另外一個層面來看這個問題，其實悲觀地來看，對於未來財政、財稅有沒有辦法大幅度地改革，我覺得這就是接下來值得觀察的地方。我今天因為只有8分鐘，就不花太多時間。","我第一個問題要先請教政次，雖然今天部長不在，但是對於部長過去的態度，我想知道接下來520之後會不會有太大的轉變。前幾天我們現在的彭教授，亦即馬上要在520上任的金管會彭主委有跟金融公會做了一個請益之旅，裡面有提到，接下來改革金融營業稅的部分是不是有機會從現在的5%來做調降？過去莊部長對於這件事情，無論是現在的黃天牧黃主委表態是支持，我從媒體上、新聞上查看到的，就是整個財政部對於這整件事情，其實也是持開放、審慎的態度，現在對於這件事情，你們的態度到底是什麼？"],["李次長慶華：我們還是一樣。因為基本上金融營業稅這件事情，主要是因為今年年底的時候，我們要提撥到特別準備金的這個2%的部分要修正了……"],["李委員彥秀：對，準備金的部分打算要取消嘛！"],["李次長慶華：對，要屆期了。屆期以後，到底金融營業稅是不是要維持有關保險、銀行業5%的稅率，這個部分就是目前業者們非常關切的議題。這個部分金管會現任的黃天牧主委其實已有具體的意見給我們財政部。"],["李委員彥秀：那你們財政部的意見到底是什麼？"],["李次長慶華：我們財政部目前是這樣，基本上因為這個東西它涉及到的一個是國際租稅的課徵……"],["李委員彥秀：對，但因我們的金融營業稅是採總額方式課稅，跟國際的作法不同，所以我們的賦稅比較嚴重，這對金融業來說……"],["李次長慶華：對，所以這個部分，我們會參考一些國際之間課稅的方式來做一些適度的調整。"],["李委員彥秀：所以你們也打算調整？"],["李次長慶華：但是這個調整就是說，要考慮的問題，除了就是國際租稅的課徵方向之外，我們還是要考量一下國家整體的金融風險到底是不是還是……會受到多少衝擊。"],["李委員彥秀：需不需要準備金的部分？"],["李次長慶華：須不須要做相關的調整，或者是維持原來的……"],["李委員彥秀：這件事情討論了這麼久，沒關係，我覺得這件事情，財政部討論了很久，既然你們這個團隊是無縫接軌，520之後繼續做，我希望這件事情你們可以有更具體對外的說法，因為既然彭主委看起來好像也支持過去黃天牧黃主委的想法跟做法，也接收到陳情，所以這件事情，我希望能儘速有具體的答案出來。"],["李次長慶華：是，我會跟新任的彭主委繼續做溝通，我相信他應該會具體給我們更……有沒有其他的意見，我們也會參考一下。"],["李委員彥秀：好，謝謝政次。接下來，我還是要問一下我們的債務未償餘額的部分，雖然今天部長不在，但是我相信你對於這些數字都應該非常的熟悉……"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["李委員彥秀：次長，我們今年的中央政府債務未償餘額達到6兆3,528億，我們直接看數字，因為我今天時間不多，我們一年以上的債務是5兆9,000多億，將近6兆，一年以下的將近3,591億左右，我覺得有一個數字非常奇怪！我們直接看到那個表，好不好？去年（2023年）5月19日我們中央的債務未償餘額是達到6兆3,418億，所以我們每一個國人平均負債達到27.2萬，次長，但是你看到今年（2024年）4月30日我們卻達到新高，才4月，還不到5月，一般我們的債務餘額最高都會是在5月份，才到4月份我們就已經達到6兆3,528億，所以這邊我有幾個問題。","第一個問題是我們的國債怎麼會越來越多？過去說我們是經濟最好的時刻，每一年也都超徵稅收這麼多，但是你看4月19日我們的債務餘額達到6兆3,228億，到4月30日我們就已經多了300億，才短短的兩、三個禮拜，就多了300億，這個是我第一個問題。第二個問題是為什麼今年我們的債務未償餘額比較多，但是我們的平均債務負擔只有27.1萬，去年反而有27.2萬，這個問題點到底在哪裡？是我們戶籍人數增加嗎？是疫情過後戶籍人數增加，所以我們每一個人的負債減少嗎？這個問題到底出現在哪裡？還有為什麼4月19日的時候我們的債務未償餘額才6兆3,228億，但是到4月30日，大概短短兩個禮拜左右，我們就已經多了300億，問題出現在哪裡？"],["李次長慶華：這個我跟委員報告一下，因為其實每一年國庫都是在第一、二季撥付各機關的日常支出，它會撥付我們中央政府軍公教人員的年節獎金，還有地方政府的補助款，還有健保的補助款，還有相關年度出納事務整理期間的支出，這段期間它的支出面會增加，所以大宗稅款還沒有入庫之前我們……"],["李委員彥秀：我知道，5月之後所得稅收進來之後，我們就會去還款……"],["李次長慶華：對，5月之後，國債的狀況就會整個緩降下來。"],["李委員彥秀：好，李次長，我再請問一下，因為我們今年負債增加，5月我們的國債鐘還會持續破表嗎？預估到5月底，因為5月底通常會是最高的，我們的國債鐘會持續破表嗎？現在是27.1萬，你怎麼預估呢？"],["李次長慶華：我預估應該是會往下調降啦！應該會往下調降。"],["李委員彥秀：你預估會往下調降？"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["李委員彥秀：是還了之後……"],["李次長慶華：是因為所得稅收，還有目前為止到……"],["李委員彥秀：所得稅抵扣之前呢？因為這才4月30日，還不到5月底，我們國債鐘還會持續破表嗎？"],["李次長慶華：因為目前到4月的部分還有相關的稅收應該也會持續地進帳，有些扣繳的稅款也會增加，所以我們預計是會緩降的，應該會緩降下來，因為它的趨勢其實每年都差不多。"],["李委員彥秀：好，次長，我再問一個問題，今年收到綜所稅之後，我們會立刻拿來還債嗎？依照過去的慣例，那你會拿多少出來還債？"],["李次長慶華：通常我們會按照稅收實收的狀況來做相關的規劃，不會馬上還債，但是可能就會看……"],["李委員彥秀：還是我們只還一年以下的，譬如我們一年以下的債務餘額是3,591億，只會還這個部分嗎？還是會多還一點？"],["李次長慶華：不是，那個就是目前已經編列的預算，該還債的金額，我們當然會依照規範的時程，還有稅收入帳的時程，我們會去強制還本，除了強制還本以後，我們會看到……"],["李委員彥秀：還多還少可以有彈性啊！財政部……"],["李次長慶華：沒有，強制還本原則上就是法定的，我們一定會……"],["李委員彥秀：強制的部分，我知道，這是一年以下的，一定要還……"],["李次長慶華：對、對、對。"],["李委員彥秀：一年以上的會多還一點嗎？"],["李次長慶華：如果我們稅收狀況不錯的話，我們國庫……"],["李委員彥秀：你講到稅收狀況，我就要請問你，因為我們今年第一期實徵淨額是5,576億元，比去年同期增加704億元，多了14%，將近15%左右……"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["李委員彥秀：財政部預估今年我們超徵稅收的數字會不會有機會突破950億元，甚至突破1,000億元？"],["李次長慶華：目前是預計我們營所稅的稅收可能只……"],["李委員彥秀：會增加，會持續地增加？"],["李次長慶華：可能只會基本上接近預算數，但是綜所稅……"],["李委員彥秀：但是第一期已經比去年同期增加704億。"],["李次長慶華：那是全部的稅收，包含我們綜所稅，還有證交稅，還有營業稅，目前我們預估到現在為止我們的營業稅會增加、我們的綜合所得稅可能也會增加。"],["李委員彥秀：我要問我們的超徵稅收今年到底會多少？因為今年一開始的時候莊部長來到我辦公室跟我講，今年超徵稅收會好好地編列，不會有像去年那個狀況。"],["李次長慶華：對，我也很明確地跟委員報告，其實到5月份結束以後，我們的綜合所得稅結算申報，還有營所稅的結算申報結束以後，我們大概就可以預估出來我們今年可能實徵的稅收有多少，也許那時候會有比較具體的數字來跟委員報告。"],["李委員彥秀：所以你還是不敢講？"],["李次長慶華：我現在沒有把握。"],["李委員彥秀：我就跟你講第一期多了15%，所以我要問你，你今年超徵稅收到底有多少？你們說今年會好好編列，但第一期就增加將近15%。","次長，我還是要提醒你，因為你們這個團隊是所有部會裡面最無縫接軌的，因為幾乎兩位次長都在，部長也沒換人，所以財政上、財稅上的大幅改革，這個是我覺得外界期待看得到的，我們希望在這個部分上好好地去處理，國債鐘的部分，還有今年、明年到底要還多少錢，我覺得因為我們國家負債是越來越嚴重，所以這個部分可能財政部要思考清楚，謝謝。"],["李次長慶華：好，謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。等一下再發言兩位，到王鴻薇委員，我們就休息10分鐘。","接下來請李坤城委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1","speakers":["羅明才","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳玉珍","張智倫","王世堅","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","許宇甄","李柏毅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」\n等2案","agenda_id":"1134101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":4.3678437500000005,"end":6.83159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.87784375,"end":8.856593750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":12.822218750000001,"end":215.18721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":113.12721875000001,"end":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來"},{"start":250.263,"end":250.944,"text":"市長,您看到今年2024月30日"},{"start":267.006,"end":267.046,"text":"李彥秀"},{"start":285.95,"end":285.99,"text":"﹚李彥秀"},{"start":304.893,"end":321.161,"text":"我們就已經多了300億 這個猜不到短短的兩三個禮拜就多了300億 這個是我第一個問題第二個問題是為什麼我們債務餘額我們反而比較多但是你看我們平均債務負擔是27.1萬 那我們去年是只有27.2萬 這個問題點到底在哪裡是"},{"start":330.206,"end":334.187,"text":"我們是戶籍人數增加嗎?是疫情過戶籍人數增加,那我們的債,我們每一個人的負債卻是減少,這個問題到底出現在哪裡?那為什麼我們4月19號的時候,我們才6兆3228億,我們的負債,我們債務的未償餘額,但是短短到4月30號,到兩個禮拜左右,我們就已經多了300億。"},{"start":353.533,"end":356.655,"text":"每年國庫都是在第1、2季撥付各機關的日常支出,它會撥付我們中央政府軍工教育人員的年節獎金,還有地方政府的補助款,還有健保的補助款,還有相關年度出納事務整理期間的支出。"},{"start":375.208,"end":377.989,"text":"李市長,我再請問一下,因為我們今年負債增加,那我們5月的國債中,我們還會持續破表嗎?"},{"start":399.736,"end":424.151,"text":"預估到5月底因為5月底通常會是最高的嘛那我們的國債中會持續破表嘛現在是27.1萬你預估應該是會往下調降嘛你預估會往下調降是還了之後是所得稅是因為所得稅收還有就是相關目前為止到那所得稅抵扣之前呢因為現在才4月30號如果還不到5月底我們國債中還會持續破表嗎"},{"start":425.271,"end":449.314,"text":"對,因為目前到4月的部分還有相關的稅收應該會持續的進賬有些扣繳的稅款也會增加所以我們預計是會緩降的啦應該會緩降下來因為它的趨勢其實每年都差不多那次長我再問一個問題就是說我們今年收到眾所稅之後我們會立刻拿來還債嘛依照過去的慣例那你會拿多少出來還債"},{"start":450.726,"end":465.374,"text":"通常我們會按照那個稅收實收的狀況來做相關的規劃他不會馬上還債但是他可能就會看說還是我們只還一年以下譬如說我們一年以下的債務約是3591億只會還這個部分嗎目前已經編列的那個預算預該還債的金額我們這個當然會照他規定的規範的時程還有就是稅收入帳的時程我們會去強制還本那除了強制還本以後我們會看到還多還少可以有彈性啊"},{"start":480.422,"end":487.789,"text":"強制緩本原則上就是法定的,這是一年以下的一定要緩嗎?一年以上會多緩一點嗎?這裡說我看起來,你講到稅收狀況我就要請問你,因為我們今年時增金額是5576億元,比同一期上去年的增加704億元,多了14%,將近15%左右。"},{"start":505.844,"end":530.809,"text":"財政部會預估說今年徵收的數字會不會有機會突破950億元甚至突破1000億元?目前我們是預計我們的營所稅的稅收可能只能會增加或持續的增加可能只會基本上接近運算數但是第一期已經增加到700比去年同期增加到704億"},{"start":531.789,"end":534.371,"text":"關於今年一開始的時候莊部長來到我辦公室跟我講說我們今年應該這個超增稅收我們會好好的編列"},{"start":554.285,"end":555.045,"text":"所以你還是不敢講"},{"start":573.314,"end":575.576,"text":"市長我還是要提醒你因為你們這個團隊是所有部會裡面最無縫接軌的因為幾乎兩位市長都在部長也沒換人所以財政上財稅上面的大幅的改革"},{"start":595.316,"end":611.63,"text":"﹏﹏"}]}},{"id":"152195","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152195","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a6885fec6f5b1cfdcf7310b11d8215eda9e801aa916026d4d42309651a35b1d3f275ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"王育敏","委員發言時間":"10:28:58 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10:35:20","影片長度":"00:06:22","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期社會福利及衛生環境委員會（事由：舉行「全民健康保險醫療給付費用總額之現況與展望」公聽會）","type":"Clip","date":"2024-05-06","start_time":"2024-05-06T10:28:58+08:00","end_time":"2024-05-06T10:35:20+08:00","duration":382,"features":["ai-transcript"],"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":5.262218750000001,"end":47.33159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":47.517218750000005,"end":192.82784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":192.97971875000002,"end":199.78034375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":200.11784375000002,"end":202.44659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":202.75034375,"end":261.57659375000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":262.77471875000003,"end":266.68971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.97659375,"end":273.45659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":273.67596875000004,"end":312.03284375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":312.52221875000004,"end":344.14596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":344.46659375,"end":380.93346875000003}],"whisperx":[{"start":6.491,"end":28.324,"text":"謝謝教委主持人我們本會的委員還有各位專家學者大家好我想今天這個場合非常的好就是讓大家對於整體我們的健保制度實行這麼久那我們的總額支付制度實行這麼久它裡面所產生的問題跟弊端大家可以有一個充分的交換意見的機會"},{"start":30.145,"end":31.325,"text":"全民健保法第62條修正草案條高健保點值"},{"start":47.631,"end":70.67,"text":"那事實上這就是啟動了大家可以來對話跟跨出改變的第一步那為什麼我們上個禮拜四我想在委員會大家朝野立委大家都有共識就是這個草案已經送出委員會接下來就是朝野協商主要是大家對於現行的醫療環境很多醫院承受這樣子七折八扣的情況"},{"start":71.491,"end":71.851,"text":"王育敏委員：王育敏"},{"start":98.877,"end":98.997,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":115.191,"end":135.815,"text":"我們有很便利的健保 大家在台灣看病很方便 有些人到國外之後年老了之後一定要回到台灣來 因為都覺得台灣的這個健保制度真的是太好了 照顧很多人但是我要講一句 台灣這麼好用的健保 絕對不能建立在我們醫護的血汗之上"},{"start":136.375,"end":136.435,"text":"王育敏議員"},{"start":153.109,"end":153.249,"text":"王育敏議員王育敏議員"},{"start":176.964,"end":177.184,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":193.029,"end":193.329,"text":"王育敏"},{"start":209.628,"end":212.389,"text":"是我們認為臺灣最值得支撐的一個體系的話為什麼超徵稅額不能優先挹注到我們的全民健保為什麼我們握有權利者不能做出這樣子的一個決定而是看說部長誰大聲誰比較會爭取資源所以人家經濟部部長好棒棒一千億就過去台電了"},{"start":233.473,"end":258.973,"text":"那我們的衛福部部長是不是不夠用力呢那這個是不是超徵稅額的部分可以優先來挹注健保我們今天大家不用這麼的辛苦我們的總額我們可以提高但是政府投資不夠沒有這樣子做所以我覺得還不夠重視所以我必須具體指出來就是從裁員方面大家都提到其實你看政府的報告主計處的報告都是講到裁員的問題"},{"start":263.397,"end":273.28,"text":"財源的問題無解嗎?我個人認為是有解的所以在上個禮拜六有一個南寧國有獎的頒獎典禮卓榮泰院長也到了現場那我就當面也跟他說我說這個健保點值要調高的問題大家共同來面對行政院跟國會一起來面對目標只有一個他在現場也說這個他又提到CEO World就是提到我們這個No.1"},{"start":291.306,"end":311.719,"text":"但是他忽略一件事情就是我們真正要打造一個優質的健全的永續的健保體系我們才可以真正拿到第一這個第一才有價值所以我當場跟他說是不是新的政府新的上任賴總統提出健康台灣的口號我也非常贊成"},{"start":312.574,"end":339.761,"text":"但是健康台灣不能只是一句口號健康台灣如果要付諸實踐那請政府加大自己對於整個健保體系的投資增加我們的預算把這件事情列為是重中之重最優先而最後我要講賴清德總統他其實特別有提到說在總統選舉的時候他說他最有能力來解決這個健保的問題"},{"start":341.681,"end":343.422,"text":"我們要跟賴清德總統喊話賴總統520你即將上任我們也相信你最有能力來解決健保的問題那解決健保的問題我們從今天討論的調高健保點子開始其他的配套開始"},{"start":360.189,"end":380.4,"text":"請賴清德總統作為一個醫師的總統你拿出你的魄力然後讓我們的健保可以真正的永續讓我們的醫護可以不用血汗讓我們的醫院可以合理的收入情況底下好好永續的經營這樣子台灣的健保才可以永遠是世界第一謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152194","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152194","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a681660dcdfdb0d414c84bf63cf92ad2af6801aa916026d4d4240f758f6481162cc5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"蘇巧慧","委員發言時間":"10:16:46 - 10:26:18","影片長度":"00:09:32","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議（事由：審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」等2案。\n【5月6日及8日二天一次會】）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議","type":"聯席會議","term":11,"sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":1,"committees":[20,15],"id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1"},"duration":572,"end_time":"2024-05-06T10:26:18+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T10:16:46+08:00","features":["ai-transcript","gazette"],"type":"Clip","gazette":{"lineno":429,"blocks":[["蘇委員巧慧：（10時16分）謝謝主席，請次長。"],["主席：請李次長。"],["李次長慶華：委員早。"],["蘇委員巧慧：次長好。次長，我們今天要討論的是地方稅法通則，尤其是第四條，我想先請次長再簡單的表示一下，因為從剛剛到現在，其實每個委員都有不同的考慮面向，次長，基於地方自治和財源自籌的狀況，其實我們放寬一點，讓地方可以調整，今天主要修法的方向是這樣，財政部的立場到底是同意還是不同意？"],["李次長慶華：因為這一次兩個委員提案修正的版本，其實只是把第四條的所謂地方稅的……"],["蘇委員巧慧：漲幅的部分嘛！"],["李次長慶華：講清楚說是中央立法的地方稅，但其實我們第四條原來的意旨就是中央立法的地方稅，所以這一次修法不涉及到實質的變動，其實還是跟我們原來的立法意旨相符，所以只是將文字明確化。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以不但影響不會太大，而且說實在的，對後面的稅基等等項目其實都沒有做到調整？"],["李次長慶華：都沒有做到調整。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以這樣聽起來，其實財政部的立場也是支持的就對了？"],["李次長慶華：財政部是尊重今天委員會的意見，然後也看看委員會最後的審查結果是什麼，我們尊重。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊，其實我們也是從地方來的，所以任何能夠幫地方找到更多財源，尤其是能夠立法更清楚，讓大家好做事，地方政府在做事的時候也有所本，這樣的修法方向我們都能夠支持。所以如果對於第四條的修法，財政部的立場是如此的話，我也想跟您請教一下第六條的部分，第六條第二項的最後有規定了一個備查，「備查」這二個字，次長，我想請問，依據地方制度法，備查的意義是怎麼樣？定義是如何？"],["李次長慶華：備查基本上當然就是地方稅已經議會通過的地方自治條例……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我就說「備查」二個字。"],["李次長慶華：是，它就只是讓我們知悉啦！"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，如果依照地方制度法的話，其實備查就應該是知悉而已嘛！"],["李次長慶華：對，知悉。"],["蘇委員巧慧：我想請問一下，現在中央有多少件地方稅相關的案件送上來以後，你們做成的決議是不予備查？有沒有？"],["李次長慶華：有，有不予備查的案件。"],["蘇委員巧慧：有不予備查？"],["李次長慶華：有，有不予備查的案件。"],["蘇委員巧慧：為什麼可以有不予備查？不予備查的效力會是如何？"],["李次長慶華：基本上，第一個，因為地方稅法通則第三條還是有規定要開徵的特別稅課、臨時稅課或附加稅課，有下列事項是不得開徵的，譬如第一個是「轄區外之交易」，第二個是「流通至轄區外之天然資源或礦產品等」，第三個是「經營範圍跨越轄區之公用事業」……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對，你不用唸條文給我聽，這沒有問題。"],["李次長慶華：對，這幾款規定的就是不能開徵的項目，如果有地方政府經地方自治條例通過要針對這些不得開徵的項目來開徵這些稅課的話，即使報到我們財政部來備查，因為我們的備查程序除了財政部之外，我們還要會同內政部、行政院……"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有錯，自治監督機關指的就是內政部嘛！"],["李次長慶華：還有相關的監督機關，譬如說……"],["蘇委員巧慧：主計總處？"],["李次長慶華：像礦石稅會有經濟部，所以我們會有相關的機關一起來討論。如果它是違法課徵的行為，我們就不予備查。"],["蘇委員巧慧：次長，說到這裡，你不覺得有點矛盾嗎？備查只是知悉，所以你用不予備查，不就等於是有審核的狀況了嗎？"],["李次長慶華：對，可是我們還要審核。"],["蘇委員巧慧：可是根據剛剛說的狀況來講，如果我明明規定你地方就是不應該、不能，法律規定你不能開徵這些項目，但是你偏偏又開徵了，難道我就眼睜睜地看著你繼續違法下去嗎？這好像也不太對啊！"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以這兩者都對，但兩者合在一起又都不對的狀況下，第六條是不是也應該如同你現在在修第四條，要讓它語意更清楚一點？"],["李次長慶華：是，原則上第六條因為它用「備查」這兩個字，其實跟我們現在地方制度法的規定有點不太相符。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是啊！"],["李次長慶華：因為我們是有實質審查的效果。"],["蘇委員巧慧：沒有錯啊！"],["李次長慶華：雖然我們審查的是適法性，但是事實上還是有實質審查的效果。"],["蘇委員巧慧：是，所以現在這個地方也應該做一些……至少在字義上面的調整、文字上面的調整。我剛剛就說了嘛！基於地方自治、財源自籌，我們應該可以放寬，可是國家有國家的制度要遵守，每個部會也都有大家應該要盡的責任，要審查的部分要能夠清楚。好，如果中央、地方大家都有權責，又希望把事情弄清楚才好做事的話，那就是像今天一樣，第四條可以這樣修正的話，那你同不同意我們也可以來討論第六條的文字是不是也要把它修正，讓大家更清楚、更好做事嘛！"],["李次長慶華：是，但今天提案只有提修正第四條。"],["蘇委員巧慧：那當然。"],["李次長慶華：如果委員們後續有要調整第六條，有相關的修正意見……"],["蘇委員巧慧：我覺得財政部自己也可以討論啊！因為如果從這個第六條……今天你從第四條的文字，到現在我提出來第六條的文字，甚至我們再進一步而言，如果今天你要採取的是實質審核了，我覺得這是一種方向。那麼配套的部分，我們今天的地方稅法通則說來說去，其實只有幾條？一共才10條而已耶！而且第十條還是「本通則自公布日施行」，其實是非常單純，就只有9條。應該是非常簡單，不是單純而是簡單，只有9條而已。","在這樣的狀況下，其實就應該要搭配您剛剛說的，在第三條這麼大的空間裡面，你要搭配實質審核、實質審查，才會比較有道理嘛！好，如果你要繼續維持備查的狀況，那就只是「知悉」囉！如果是知悉的話，是不是應該在這樣的一個通則裡面，要就它的項目，甚至是稅率其實應該有更嚴謹的規定，地方才知道哪一些是可以做，哪一些是不可以做，做了以後會有什麼效果啊！","所以我覺得，老實說，這個地方稅法通則是民國91年定的，今天都已經是幾年了？其實今天修第四條應該只是一個起點，我覺得整部其實都可以來討論應該要怎麼讓它更完善一點。比如說後面是實質審查，中央有這樣的資格，還是中央就是備查，但前面把它訂得完整一點，讓地方覺得我還是照自己的來做，但我知道規範有更清楚一點，我覺得這是可以討論的方向，這是第一件事情。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：如果再細究下去，我認為還應該討論什麼呢？你看看像第三條，您剛剛要解釋的，第三條裡面，它的第一項第二款有說「流通至轄區外之天然資源或礦產品等」，次長，這個部分大概指的是什麼項目啊？"],["李次長慶華：譬如說水泥，或者是水資源……"],["蘇委員巧慧：有水資源嘛！"],["李次長慶華：對。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，我今天就問你，剛剛我們在講的這個第四條，其實有講到什麼礦產的開採行為等等，你說這些都可以。好，像淡水河流域在我新北市，凡事經過這裡的，因為我要整治這個流域，所以我也來課徵一個特別的地方稅，這樣可不可以？"],["李次長慶華：報告委員，有某個縣市政府曾經想要對流通到他們轄區的天然資源，也就是水資源來課稅，這個部分我們因為認定它就是違反「不得課徵」的項目，所以我們就不准它課徵。"],["蘇委員巧慧：好，不得課徵嘛！對不對？因為這樣就變成，此路是我開，所以留下買路錢，這當然是不行。可是反過來，如果大家是為了維護環境，可以課徵特別的稅，那我要整治我的水環境……好，我不要就新北市特別來講好了，我把整個流域經過的縣市都聯合起來可以嗎？我把幾個縣市但凡有淡水河經過的，統統聯合起來一起做，這樣可不可以？"],["李次長慶華：這個基本上還是……如果依照現行法律的規定應該還是不行的。"],["蘇委員巧慧：所以啊！你就會讓人家產生有大小心的感覺，我同樣是維護環境，為什麼我新北市就不行？對不對？"],["李次長慶華：不是新北市不行，而是……"],["蘇委員巧慧：是整個有這樣狀況的都不行，只是這個狀況剛剛好偏偏在新北市嘛！"],["李次長慶華：其實主要是因為那個天然資源是流通的，它可能會流通到全省各地方縣市，所以如果基本上針對這個流通全國的天然資源來課稅的話，這會影響到整個其他……"],["蘇委員巧慧：你這樣我就會繼續挑戰你，那礦石為什麼就不是屬於……"],["李次長慶華：目前我們對於礦……"],["蘇委員巧慧：對啊！採礦的行為為什麼就不是？"],["李次長慶華：目前是花蓮跟宜蘭，那是針對他們轄區內礦區的開採行為來課稅。"],["蘇委員巧慧：次長，我覺得是這樣子啦！這個問題可以辯論很久，也可以各舉很多的例子，因為我的時間到了，所以我也不占用其他委員的時間，但我真心地認為，這樣一部民國91年制定，只有10條的通則，實在是很有全部翻修的空間。"],["李次長慶華：是。"],["蘇委員巧慧：這是為了讓中央和地方的權限可以更清楚明白，這是我強烈的建議，我們也會來思考，如何提出自己的版本，謝謝次長。"],["李次長慶華：謝謝委員。"],["主席：謝謝。","接著請李彥秀李委員質詢。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1","speakers":["羅明才","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳玉珍","張智倫","王世堅","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","許宇甄","李柏毅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」\n等2案","agenda_id":"1134101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":0.03096875,"end":0.6722187500000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.27034375,"end":9.582218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":9.71721875,"end":10.544093750000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","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成的決議是不予被查"},{"start":149.907,"end":172.778,"text":"有不予被查的案件為什麼可以有不予被查?那不予被查的效力會是如何?基本上第一個因為我們地方稅法通則第三條它還是有規定說你要開徵的特別稅客或者臨時稅客或附加稅客有下列事項是不得開徵的"},{"start":173.978,"end":183.283,"text":"對,比如第一項你是轄區外的交易第二個流通至轄區外的天然資源或跨產品等等或者是它經營的範圍跨越了轄區的對,就這幾條這幾項是不能開徵的項目那如果說有地方它如果它已經地方自治條例通過"},{"start":192.568,"end":219.172,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":220.193,"end":232.643,"text":"市長,你不覺得說到這裡有點矛盾嗎?被查只是知悉所以你用不予被查不就是等於是有審核的狀況了嗎?可是根據剛剛說的狀況來講的話如果我明明規定你地方就是不應該不能法律規定你不能開徵這些項目但是你偏偏又開徵了那難道我就眼睜睜的看著你繼續這樣違法下去嗎?這好像也不太對啊"},{"start":246.614,"end":272.855,"text":"所以這兩者都對但兩者合在一起又都不對的狀況下那第6條是不是我們也應該如同你現在在修第4條一樣讓它可以語意更清楚一點是原則上第6條當然因為它的用被查這兩個字其實跟我們現在地方制度法的規定有點不太相對因為我們是有實質審查的效果沒有錯啊雖然我們審查的是適當性而是法性但是還是有實質審查的效果是"},{"start":274.116,"end":302.536,"text":"所以今天這個地方就是也應該做一些至少字義上面的調整文字上面的調整我剛剛就說了嘛基於地方自治財源自籌我們應該可以放寬可是國家有國家的制度應該遵守每個部會也都有應該大家應該要盡的責任要審查的部分要能夠清楚好那如果中央地方大家都有權責又希望把事情弄清楚的話好做事那就是像今天一樣啦那你第四條這樣可以修正的話那你同不同意我們也可以來討論第六條"},{"start":303.677,"end":327.5,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":327.62,"end":344.359,"text":"今天你要採取的是實質審核了好 那我覺得這是一種方向那麼配套著我們今天的地方稅法通則說來說去其實只有幾條一共才10條而已欸而且第10條還是本通則自公佈日實施其實是非常單純就只有9條非常簡單不是單純是簡單只有9條而已那"},{"start":349.764,"end":377.822,"text":"這樣的狀況下其實就應該要搭配上您剛剛說的第三條這樣的這麼大的空間裡面你要搭配實質審核實質審查才會比較有道理嘛好 如果你要繼續維持著這個被查的狀況那就只是知悉囉那如果是知悉的話那是不是應該在這樣的一個通則裡面它就它的項目甚至是稅率其實應該有更嚴謹的規定地方才知道哪一些是可以做哪一些是不可以做做了以後會有什麼效果啊"},{"start":378.462,"end":397.157,"text":"所以我覺得啦,老實說這個地方稅法通則是民國91年訂的今天都已經是幾年了我們是不是應該就這整部其實今天修第四條應該是一個起點我覺得其實整部都可以來討論應該要怎麼樣可以讓它更完善一點是比如說後面是實質審查中央有這樣的資格"},{"start":400.76,"end":423.486,"text":"還是是中央就是備查但前面把它定的完整一點讓地方覺得我還是照自己做但我知道規範更清楚一點我覺得這是可以討論的方向啦這是第一件事情好那如果再細究下去我認為還應該討論什麼呢你看看像第三條您剛剛要解釋的第三條裡面吶它的第一項第二款裡面有說流通至轄區外之天然資源或礦產品這個部分"},{"start":426.782,"end":453.404,"text":"市長,這個大概指的是什麼項目啊?就是譬如說水泥啊,或者是水資源啊。水資源嗎?好,那我今天就問你了,剛剛我們在講的這個第四條啊,其實有講到什麼礦產的開採行為等等,你說這些都可以。好,那如果是我新北市呢,我就淡水河流域,凡是經過這裡的,那我都要來,因為我要整治這個流域,所以我也來課這一個特別的地方稅,這樣可不可以?"},{"start":453.864,"end":470.896,"text":"報告委員,我們曾經有某個縣市政府,他們曾經想要對流通到他們轄區的天然資源,就是水資源來克稅。這個部分我們因為認定它就是違反這個不得克徵的項目。好,不得克徵嘛,對不對?因為這樣就變成是此路是我開。"},{"start":471.596,"end":471.776,"text":"所以啊﹖"},{"start":500.137,"end":517.905,"text":"你就會讓人家產生覺得有大小新的感覺啊我同樣是維護環境啊為什麼我新北市就不行對不對不是新北市不行是整個這樣有這樣的狀況的都不行只是這個狀況剛剛好偏偏在新北市嘛其實不是主要是因為剛好那個天然資源它是流通的"},{"start":519.206,"end":543.933,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":543.993,"end":570.892,"text":"市長我覺得是這樣子啦這個問題可以辯論很久也可以各舉很多的例子因為我的時間到了所以我也不占用其他委員時間但我真心的認為這樣一部民國91年制定的只有10條的通則實在是很有全部翻修的空間了這是為了讓中央和地方的權限可以更清楚明白這是我強烈的建議我們也會來思考這個如何提出自己的版本謝謝市長"}]}},{"id":"152193","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152193","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a6814d9e1788bc6632384bf63cf92ad2af6d65503e05c7869ec47e74eb234ca6a285ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"牛煦庭","委員發言時間":"10:08:14 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對不對所以我希望可以聽到一個具體的時間表啦比如說我們立法院有8個會期對不對你預計在哪一個會期的時候會有一個明確的版本大家可以送進立法院來做討論對不對有沒有一些明確的時間表呢"},{"start":329.526,"end":357.74,"text":"這個部分目前大概沒有辦法告訴我們的明確時間表是什麼時候我們還需要一些時間阿是這樣子啦就我們在野黨當然會提出在野黨的版本嘛對不對那其實大方向大概也其實我們你們會找各縣市首長開會我們也會找各縣市首長開會嘛所以大體上方向其實也不會相差太遠啦所以就希望行政院這一段喔速度可以加快喔比如說總裁員的分配嘛按照現行的狀況大概是中央其實掌握七成左右地方大概有三成就已經投效了對不對"},{"start":358.26,"end":359.66,"text":"市長知不知道桃園每一年上繳多少稅收也重要?上繳?對"},{"start":379.417,"end":381.238,"text":"我看桃園財政局的資料2022年從桃園這樣他有他的計算標準是2337億"},{"start":400.543,"end":414.193,"text":"這幾年其實桃園貢獻的稅收絕對在全國算是名列前茅市長應該不會反對我這樣說對不對他基本上一直在持續的精進而且持續的成長可是實際上我們桃園分配到的數量每次都是倒數的好像也不太公平對不對"},{"start":415.826,"end":431.665,"text":"對這個分配的問題當然也是財務法要解決的問題啦所以分配的部分第一方面我們當然希望說營業稅的層數可以往上拉第二個我希望財政部既然你們現在都還在這個廣泛意見爭取的過程我希望你們可以把工業產值這件事情納入考量"},{"start":432.165,"end":432.185,"text":" 是。"},{"start":453.422,"end":453.822,"text":"議員賴士葆"},{"start":470.48,"end":499.11,"text":"實際上也創造出了大量的產值要不然哪裡來這麼多錢呢 對不對所以說不管是講總裁員的比例調整營業額的營業稅的這個額度工業產值的納入考量這我都希望趕快有一個眉目那這些東西其實在黨內部已經做了討論我們很快都會有很多版本出來了那我們希望行政院趕快要有版本出來好不好趕快盡快的來審查改善這個中央跟地方財政失衡的狀況也讓地方的地方政府有更多空間可以來發揮來改善大家的生活品質好不好"},{"start":500.031,"end":502.322,"text":"這部分請財政部好好加把勁啦,謝謝"}]}},{"id":"152192","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152192","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a6802c2edfe8f0c3dc0993287635c0a127bd65503e05c7869ec085848ee96b9858b5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"莊瑞雄","委員發言時間":"10:13:29 - 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通訊系統的全新硬體、軟體、技術或技術服務等，提供企業投資抵減租稅。在抵減租稅的部分，全國工總主張抵減稅率應該提高到百分之十五；財政部主張是百分之五；經濟部則是取中間值百分之十，我想要請教次長，這一部分有沒有共識？做了多少次的研討、討論？跟企業還有工會之間有沒有做更進一步的協調？"],["李次長慶華：是，報告委員，因為產創條例是經濟部主導的法案，目前有關於跟業界的溝通，還有召開相關公聽會聽取各界意見，都是由經濟部那邊在辦理，目前經濟部會在聽取各界意見以後，會整理出一個方案，之後才會會同……"],["顏委員寬恒：如果是經濟部，為什麼財政部會主張是百分之五？就是可以抵減的部分……"],["李次長慶華：沒有，目前還沒有跟我們進一步討論，都還沒有。"],["顏委員寬恒：財政部就是要求比較嚴苛的啊，對產業要求比較嚴苛啊！"],["李次長慶華：沒有，我們原則上就是維持現行產創條例第十條之一的稅率，目前還沒有進行進一步的討論。"],["顏委員寬恒：就是說，鼓勵企業投資這些智慧機械、5G通訊相關技術，還有科技的創新等等，這是一個相當好的政策，所以財政部這邊應該要大力支持，我希望各部會溝通完成之後，儘速把這些法案送到立法院來審查，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：是，我們會跟經濟部，等經濟部那邊……"],["顏委員寬恒：希望能夠趕在年底以前啦，在這些原租稅的優惠到期之前，能夠讓他們……"],["李次長慶華：會，我們會配合經濟部來訂定修法時程。"],["顏委員寬恒：好。最後一項也是最重要的，就是財政收支劃分法，已經講了二十幾年了啦，都在原地踏步，財政部目前喊出的六大修法原則都僅僅是停滯在空泛的口號，欠缺實際計算的公式及具體的作法。請教次長，上述這六點，你有要補充的部分嗎？請精確的補充，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：基本上，其實我們還是依照目前初擬的六大原則在做相關的研議方向，也在徵詢各地方政府的意見，因為目前各地方政府的意見還相當分歧，所以財政部這邊在近期會召集地方政府來做意見的溝通，等到相關意見如果有整合的話，也許我們就會提出相關財劃法的修正方向，更具體的修正方向。"],["顏委員寬恒：部長請假出國，對不對？"],["李次長慶華：是，部長去參加……"],["顏委員寬恒：但是政策是延續的，而且部長跟次長你們都留任了，所以我想財政部應該是最穩定的。"],["李次長慶華：是，謝謝委員。"],["顏委員寬恒：我想你們應該要開始著手規劃，把財政收支劃分法更具體的來做一個設計，就以臺中市為例好了，臺中市113年總歲出1,775億，比112年的歲出減少了200億，因為112年臺中市的歲出只有1,504億，臺中市市政府以更覈實的方式在編列這些預算，而且臺中市的財政升級，從三級升到二級，但是它並沒有因為這樣得到中央政府什麼樣的鼓勵或者嘉獎，反倒是因為這樣，對於臺中市的各項補助都減少，不管是捷運、交通建設，還有所有的補助款，比例都比其他，包括其他六都，其他六都一樣，但我們比人家更少，所以這是變相的在懲罰臺中市，懲罰一個財政優秀的城市。不只是臺中市碰到這樣的情況，我相信其他縣市也都非常的困難，只是以臺中市為例，希望財政部做好準備，因為財源的分配影響各地很多的公共建設，不管是臺中市也好，其他的六都也好，甚至是六都之外的城市，都需要中央的經費，統籌分配款、中央補助款及專案補助款等等這些東西，所以次長，請財政部一定要加緊動員，把這件事情做好，好不好？"],["李次長慶華：好，謝謝委員，我們會積極來處理這個事情。"],["顏委員寬恒：好，謝謝。"],["主席：謝謝。","下一位質詢請牛煦庭牛委員。"]],"agenda":{"page_end":58,"meet_id":"聯席會議-11-1-20,15-1","speakers":["羅明才","賴士葆","林德福","吳秉叡","郭國文","賴惠員","顏寬恒","牛煦庭","蘇巧慧","李彥秀","李坤城","王鴻薇","張宏陸","陳玉珍","張智倫","王世堅","黃國昌","鍾佳濱","伍麗華Saidhai‧Tahovecahe","王美惠","許宇甄","李柏毅"],"page_start":1,"meetingDate":["2024-05-06"],"gazette_id":"1134101","agenda_lcidc_ids":["1134101_00002"],"meet_name":"立法院第11屆第1會期財政、內政委員會第1次聯席會議紀錄","content":"審查本院委員賴士葆等22人、委員傅崐萁等20人分別擬具「地方稅法通則第四條條文修正草案」\n等2案","agenda_id":"1134101_00001"}},"transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":8.50221875,"end":13.750343750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":14.89784375,"end":15.57284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":18.01971875,"end":18.74534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":19.90971875,"end":20.922218750000003},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":23.65596875,"end":34.21971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":34.82721875,"end":37.510343750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":37.830968750000004,"end":44.27721875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":44.59784375,"end":45.947843750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":46.11659375,"end":52.22534375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":52.782218750000006,"end":55.752218750000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":56.174093750000004,"end":58.51971875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":58.75596875,"end":59.51534375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":59.56596875,"end":61.523468750000006},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":61.844093750000006,"end":66.24846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":67.04159375,"end":69.70784375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":69.92721875000001,"end":93.34971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":93.60284375,"end":113.80221875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":111.70971875000001,"end":125.22659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":126.62721875000001,"end":137.34284375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":137.81534375,"end":141.02159375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":141.79784375,"end":142.00034375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":142.86096875,"end":143.72159375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":146.96159375000002,"end":148.46346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":148.73346875000001,"end":150.08346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":150.20159375,"end":153.12096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":153.49221875,"end":156.47909375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":156.73221875000002,"end":157.47471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":157.69409375,"end":163.56659375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":163.61721875,"end":171.43034375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":171.51471875000001,"end":173.84346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":173.92784375000002,"end":182.48346875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":182.98971875,"end":188.62596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":188.99721875,"end":227.38784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":207.32346875000002,"end":210.36096875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":220.72221875000002,"end":220.99221875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.38784375,"end":227.65784375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":227.80971875,"end":230.89784375000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":231.67409375000003,"end":254.13471875000002},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":254.53971875000002,"end":268.61346875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":266.74034375,"end":268.22534375000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":268.61346875000004,"end":286.11284375},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":274.14846875,"end":276.24096875000004},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01","start":276.25784375,"end":276.37596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_01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.358,"text":"主席、各位內席委員、主席、請財政部理次長。請理次長。是,委員好。次長好。"},{"start":24.263,"end":52.059,"text":"請教次長今天要審查的是地方稅法通則第四條我國地方稅法可分為兩大類一類是屬於中央立法者另一類是地方自主制定者地方的財源都仰賴中央統籌付費款中央補助款及專案補助款目前六都自籌的財源大約佔了五成其他縣市就更辛苦了自籌財源僅佔大概三成"},{"start":53.199,"end":59.845,"text":"中央政府經常鼓勵地方要自首裁員。原條文規範的地方稅應由中央規定稅率,因此與地方自治權益定定無相關。"},{"start":71.195,"end":92.854,"text":"所以為了避免意識不明引起的爭議及誤會所以提案委員把文字做了一些修正更清楚表達法條想要表達的意思本席認為地方稅制應該回歸給地方自治那除了需要中方制定的稅者之外讓地方自己有空間來做處理對於這部分的修正請教次長您的態度"},{"start":93.875,"end":113.621,"text":"委員今天賴委員跟副委員所提案的部分他修正地方稅法通則第四條就是把中央立法的這個相關的地方稅的附增、附加稅率30%明確化那這個部分我們是跟地方稅法通則的意旨當時立法的意旨完全相符這個部分還沒有一件事財政部是支持的"},{"start":114.341,"end":143.294,"text":"市長那接下來就是世界地球日10月22號大家最關切的議題當然是有關於這個碳費的徵收還有淨零排碳這個淨零排碳是世界趨勢那各國利用碳權、碳稅還有碳交易的手段來這個達成減少二氧化碳排放的目標那碳費是2023年1月10日山土通過"},{"start":147.157,"end":168.11,"text":"氣候變遷因應法將2050淨零排碳目標入法設立的機制。碳費、碳稅、碳教育都不同。在台灣,計算7月排放量之後,碳費會繳給環境部,用於減碳措施、能源轉型等公共建設用途。"},{"start":168.57,"end":188.349,"text":"那碳稅是由各國稅務機關來徵收作為國庫的收入那本席的選區有許多的工廠這些廠商都非常的關切碳稅及碳費的相關議題請教次長關於碳稅的部分我們財政部是不是在5月領事後就會開始課程"},{"start":189.359,"end":207.691,"text":"報告委員,基本上我們是目前就是氣候變遷因應法目前我們是以推動碳費先行的方式來處理。那有關碳稅的課徵呢,原則上我們將來應該要試碳費施行的情形,再來評估它推動是不是要課徵碳稅的實現。"},{"start":209.552,"end":210.133,"text":"另一個更重要,因為這個"},{"start":232.441,"end":254.035,"text":"臺灣的一個碳費的制度,引發業界可能被同時收取碳費還有貨物稅的一個雙重課稅。那所以希望財政部可以重新,現在產業都在希望說財政部可以重新來新設能源稅,取代貨物稅,讓相關的稅率明確化可不可以?"},{"start":254.745,"end":282.499,"text":"目前我們的規劃方向就是可能將來就是如果在課徵假設這個研究案最後建議我們能夠推動這個碳稅的話我們會並同檢討這個貨物稅的課稅項目,對是的,因為我們有很多的部分像現在在課徵的貨物稅當中就有油氣、汽車這些能源的部分所以它已經具備了環境稅的性質那你現在在課徵這個碳稅那就變成一隻股百億這樣賠"},{"start":283.599,"end":283.619,"text":"我實踐"},{"start":299.298,"end":320.493,"text":"有關產業創新條例那108年制定的這個產業創新條例第10條之一針對這個構置智慧機械5G通訊系統的全新硬體軟體技術還有技術服務等那提供企業投資這個抵減租稅那在抵減租稅的部分"},{"start":321.594,"end":341.996,"text":"全國工種主張抵減稅率應該提高到15%財政部主張是5%經濟部則是取中間值10%我想請教次長這一部分有沒有共識做了多少次的研討、討論跟企業還有工會之間有沒有做更進一步的協調"},{"start":343.698,"end":344.218,"text":"經濟部會聽取各界意見後整理一個方案"},{"start":362.563,"end":371.19,"text":"為什麼財政部會主張是5%?目前還沒有跟我們進一步討論財政部就是要求比較嚴苛的啊對產業要求比較嚴苛啊沒有,我們原則上就是維持現行產創條例10條之一的稅率目前就是還沒有進行進一步的討論就是說鼓勵企業投資這些智慧機械5G通訊相關技術還有這個科技的創新等等"},{"start":389.654,"end":409.261,"text":"這是一個相當好的政策啦,所以我們財政部這邊應該要大力支持,所以我希望各部會溝通完成之後,儘速把這些法案趕快送到立法院來審查。能夠趕在年底以前,就是說讓這些原始,這個原租稅的優惠到期之前,能夠讓它暫停。"},{"start":414.803,"end":438.772,"text":"最後一項就是最重要也是最重要的財產財政收支劃分法已經講了20幾年了都在原地踏步財政部目前喊出的六大修法原則都僅僅是停滯在空泛的口號那欠缺實際計算的公式還有具體的做法那請教次長上述的就是這六點你要補充的部分嗎精確的補充好不好"},{"start":439.555,"end":464.255,"text":"基本上其實我們還是依照目前這個初米的六大原則在做相關的研議方向啦那也在徵詢我們各地方政府的意見那我想因為目前各地方政府的意見還相當的分歧所以我們財政部在近期會召集地方政府來做一個意見的溝通那等到相關的意見能夠如果有整合的話也許我們就會提出相關財務法的修正方向更具體的修正方向"},{"start":467.368,"end":491.455,"text":"部長出國請假,但是政策是延續的,而且部長跟次長你們都留任,所以我想說財政部應該是最穩定的,我想就是說應該要開始著手規劃,把這些財政措施劃分法更具體的來做一個設計,然後我跟你講以台中市為例,就以台中市為例好了,"},{"start":493.035,"end":516.694,"text":"台中市113年總稅出1775億比112年稅出減少了200億,超過200億因為112年台中市的稅出只有1504台中市市政府以更合適的方式在編列這些預算而且台中市的財政升級從3級升到2級"},{"start":519.696,"end":530.45,"text":"但是他並沒有因為這樣得到什麼樣的一個中央政府的一個鼓勵或者是一個加獎反倒是因為這樣對於台中市的各項補助都減少"},{"start":531.787,"end":532.107,"text":"委員賴士葆"},{"start":557.898,"end":584.987,"text":"希望財政部做好準備因為財源的分配影響各地還有很多公共建設那不管是台中市也好其他六都的其他城市還有其六都之外的城市都需要中央的經費統籌分配款、中央補助款、專案補助款等等這些東西所以次長我們請財政部一定要加緊動員把這件事情做好好不好好謝謝委員我們會來積極來處理這個事情"}]}},{"id":"152188","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152188","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a68bb21dfd997e54a5e993287635c0a127bd65503e05c7869eca8623d064fd3beeb5ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳宗憲","委員發言時間":"10:03:34 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10:07:16","影片長度":"00:03:42","會議時間":"2024-05-06T09:00:00+08:00","會議名稱":"立法院第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議（事由：一、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法委員行為法第七條之一及第三十條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法委員行為法部分條文修正草案」案。\n（三）委員范雲等18人擬具「立法委員行為法第七條條文修正草案」案。\n二、繼續審查\n（一）民進黨黨團擬具「立法院議事規則第四十七條、第四十八條及第五十二條條文修正草案」案。\n（二）委員賴瑞隆等16人擬具「立法院議事規則第九條、第二十二條及第五十條條文修正草案」案。）","date":"2024-05-06","meet":{"tmpMeeting":null,"title":"第11屆第1會期司法及法制委員會第19次全體委員會議","term":11,"type":"委員會","sessionPeriod":1,"sessionTimes":19,"committees":[36],"id":"委員會-11-1-36-19"},"duration":222,"end_time":"2024-05-06T10:07:16+08:00","start_time":"2024-05-06T10:03:34+08:00","features":["ai-transcript"],"type":"Clip","transcript":{"pyannote":[{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":0.03096875,"end":1.24596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":7.27034375,"end":70.09596875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":70.53471875000001,"end":85.41846875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":86.27909375,"end":99.32346875},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":99.82971875000001,"end":101.12909375000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":101.33159375000001,"end":116.29971875000001},{"speaker":"SPEAKER_00","start":116.63721875,"end":222.13971875000001}],"whisperx":[{"start":0.212,"end":0.334,"text":"發言時間3分鐘。"},{"start":7.527,"end":33.473,"text":"謝謝召委我這邊簡單的回應一下剛剛柯總召問我的問題報告柯總召4月3號那一天確實早上柯總召打電話給我就說他們希望說下午不要進入到直條審查因為有救災有什麼的需求所以有這個需要那所以說當天下午我取消我是綜合的考量到確實有委員需要趕回去救災或是確認家裡面的狀況"},{"start":35.453,"end":60.907,"text":"况且我知道各州中委員有排兩場公聽會所以我才當時就最後做了那樣子的決策否則當天其實早上有記者來訪問我我也說我們當天下午就是要進入逐條審查所以說我是一個綜合的考量而不是說像大家都有一些什麼很奇怪的一些陰謀論那第二個就是剛剛沈博安委員所提到的4月10號11號確實是"},{"start":65.449,"end":85.078,"text":"閱讀委員會中召委排的公聽會 這什麼我講的是正確的但是我剛剛要說的是本來我4月3號下午可以硬幹就逐條審查我也可以在4月8號我代理召委那一天就硬幹逐條審查但是我都不願意這麼做因為我覺得我不喜歡做這種事情我覺得"},{"start":86.328,"end":100.804,"text":"至少我還是一個開放的方式希望說能夠多有公聽會大家能夠討論的情況下多討論所以甚至我自己主持會議也從早上站到下午4點不是說站著是"},{"start":101.425,"end":116.613,"text":""},{"start":119.114,"end":136.082,"text":"我來這裡我覺得很累,就是一定要幫大家上法律課啦,因為憲法不是這樣解釋的。我跟各位說,譬如說我們憲法言論自由,人民的言論自由並沒有新聞自由四個字嘛,但是所有的學者都認為言論自由就是包括在人民的言論自由範圍內。"},{"start":139.844,"end":161.841,"text":"人民有言論自由不代表你不能講話。你能講話就叫做言論自由,不是這樣。它是包括思想,包括你的所述的內容。所以所謂的遷徙自由不是說人民不可以走動,那個叫遷徙自由。法律如果可以用文字就解釋,那叫一個國小看得懂字的學生來解釋就可以。憲法重要的是它的"},{"start":162.621,"end":184.875,"text":"這是中華民國根本大法,它重要的是原理原則。所以遷徙自由的意思是,你不可以加諸人民在遷徙上面的要求,除非他有法律明定。所以我們叫做法律保留。他今天犯法,我可以把他抓去關,因為法律保留。所以憲法不是這樣解釋,我跟各位報告,因為一直要來幫大家上法律課,我也很樂意啦,沒問題,可是"},{"start":186.576,"end":215.348,"text":"不能說喊著自己是專家憲法專家就來罵別人毀憲亂證就罵的東西是錯的因為這個社會上面念過憲法人非常多所以遷徙自由是加諸在遷徙上面的任何事情基本上要法律保留所以剛剛我一直講我說省保養廳的法案我不是說不行啦而是我們在討論法案的時候我們還要去思考剛剛柯總召講的憲法23條比例原則你的手段性目的性"},{"start":215.868,"end":215.888,"text":"閱讀者"}]}},{"id":"152187","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152187","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a682b5b8a657041b721993287635c0a127bd65503e05c7869ec6c9026818a35f3055ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"吳思瑤","委員發言時間":"09:57:08 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days整天的時間在司法法制委員會"},{"start":158.396,"end":181.267,"text":"就是國民黨想方設法的阻撓干擾干預破壞逐條審查的機會踐踏委員會中心主義只要是國民黨版就可以快速通關坐直達車打包協商只要是民進黨版"},{"start":182.047,"end":189.19,"text":"國民黨最害怕的民進黨版就被阻卻了審查還沒有辦法併案被丟包這是什麼國會從來沒有這樣的國會我也回應一下羅志強委員民主進步黨執政八年的國會多數裡頭程序委員會沒有擋過任何一個議案零次"},{"start":211.055,"end":217.344,"text":"沒有就是沒有。但是國民黨恢復國會多數的這個會期居然在城市委員會擋案了。"},{"start":219.116,"end":224.379,"text":"我也要說民進黨執政多數的時候並沒有沒收委員會逐條審查的權利沒有過去在討論你們國民黨非常害怕的促轉條例也好不當黨產得利條例也好甚至是年改法案也好在相關委員會內政委員會司法法制委員會民進黨都讓國民黨發言說好說滿"},{"start":245.671,"end":250.555,"text":"讓這樣的政治性、爭議性的法案透過討論跟社會對話沒有阻絕了委員會的討論沒有沒收逐條討論的機會沒有就是沒有"},{"start":261.601,"end":283.53,"text":"民進黨也沒有選擇性的在院會阻撓了其他法案並案協商的機會,從來沒有。但是國民黨上週五在立法院再一次拒絕了民進黨的職權行使法一起並案跟國民黨的職權行使法並案協商的機會。"},{"start":285.17,"end":310.75,"text":"從程序委員會的檔案從委員會的主條沒收審查到院會拒絕並案協商這都是民進黨多數的時期從來不會做的事因為這是閹割了程序正義這是沒收了國會的民主沒有就是沒有羅志強不要顛倒是非不要胡言亂語"},{"start":312.901,"end":335.343,"text":"回到今天的重題我們浪費了民脂民膏十多天的時間處理國會改革法案今天5月6號還要阻撓主條審查嗎?出來打球沒有這麼困難收起你的心魔不要害怕面對面我們比專業"},{"start":337.099,"end":337.219,"text":"眾議員主席"}]}},{"id":"152186","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152186","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a68402a7785856a556e310b11d8215eda9ed65503e05c7869ecd3fd2c7e8cb69e775ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"林月琴","委員發言時間":"09:50:57 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我們會再滾動檢討"},{"start":363.335,"end":364.275,"text":"國產署署長"},{"start":389.264,"end":404.418,"text":"委員長,我想跟你討論就是沒有人繼承了財產的一個活化的一個可利用性因為我們知道就是說沒有人繼承了這個不動產的拍賣如果進到國庫以後我們會用到哪裡就是沒有人聲明繼承"},{"start":404.718,"end":424.821,"text":"⋯⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":425.786,"end":440.252,"text":"跟委員報告,那我想剛剛委員的這個資料是很清楚就是說先貸款15年,15年我們就期滿就會做相關的拍賣,那拍賣的所得會放到內政部一個專款"},{"start":441.112,"end":464.105,"text":"然後10年內原來有繼承的這些資格的人他還是可以把他因扣掉必要的稅負跟作業費用以後他是可以領回的那在還沒有完成5次拍賣之前這個財產都還算是私人的所以政府為了尊重私人財產的產權的部分要經過幾次的拍賣要經過5次"},{"start":465.106,"end":478.075,"text":"五次的拍賣是一般來講的話因為這個涉及到人民的權利因為無緣繼承財產它的原因有非常的多包括有些是兄弟姊妹之間對於繼承的問題的訴訟或糾紛甚至有一些繼承人不明"},{"start":485.58,"end":501.941,"text":"我剛剛知道這個5次的拍賣是非常謹慎的,那我們也知道就是說這個不謹慎不行,就會那個延伸很多後續的一個就位那我再跟這個署長特別提到了就是一個我們社會住宅"},{"start":502.501,"end":516.637,"text":"社會住宅這個公共建設其實它的一個經費受到了一個限制所以它的整個進度也會變慢就以我們台南就是社會住宅它其實預計是7000戶到目前新建中才3153戶那待開工的還有4856戶"},{"start":523.624,"end":545.236,"text":"其實真正住進去的完工的才202戶,那為什麼呢?就是沒有錢。所以有沒有機會就是說在這個沒有人生命繼承的這一些財產裡頭,就是經過了5次的一個拍賣,然後就是我們可以把它用在就是等於是國庫裡頭,我們可以把它提出來,提出來就是說"},{"start":546.317,"end":547.398,"text":"報告委員因為剛剛講的這個經過保管10年以後進入到國庫"},{"start":562.807,"end":582.398,"text":"⋯⋯⋯"},{"start":582.498,"end":585.441,"text":"國產署來承辦無人繼承財產及未辦理繼承財產的部分是受內政部之托,所以真正的法令是在內政部。金額不多。"},{"start":605.579,"end":605.599,"text":"﹚賴惠員﹚"},{"start":621.357,"end":622.218,"text":"委員賴士葆等22人及8日二天一次會議"},{"start":638.658,"end":639.078,"text":"主席賴清雄議員"}]}},{"id":"152184","url":"https://ivod.ly.gov.tw/Play/Clip/1M/152184","video_url":"https://ivod-lyvod.cdn.hinet.net/vod_1/_definst_/mp4:1MClips/6319d5f220c85a687a665d6648917a0a993287635c0a127bd65503e05c7869ec611a6d135deb2ea05ea18f28b6918d91.mp4/playlist.m3u8","委員名稱":"柯建銘","委員發言時間":"09:53:33 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